From: mj03@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (MINHO JO)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: RE:RE: YS SHOULD not BE QUALIFIED
Date: 31 Dec 92 04:21:08 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1992Dec31.015405.36570@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>, mj03@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (M
INHO JO) writes:
>In article <85922@ut-emx.uucp>, btlee@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Mr. Byungtae Lee) writ
e
>s:
>>From: mj03@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (MINHO JO) writes:
>
>>Subject: YS SHOULD not BE QUALIFIED   ( RE: AFTERMATH of ELECION)
>
>
>Preface:
>
>       I thank my refrigerator which makes my head COOL.
>
>                   Minho
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>#### First of all, I have full of regret for starting postings in this net
>>     where I believe I have encountered many disagreement from a few who do
>>     not have proper attitude to exchange different opinions.
>>     However, because of your labeling my political stands, I have to
>>     continue this damn time consuming.
>
>
>
>REPLY:
>      I have read your several articles.   I have found you are so sensitive
>
>      to somebody's comments.  You are now mentioning other guys' attitude.
>
>      Before you complaine,  you are suggested to go back and think over
>
>      the nasty words you used.
>
>      The nasty words (ex. ridiculous, stupid,  IQ Uoon Uoon ....) are
>
>      agressive enough to backfire. Before you complain others labelling your
>
>      political stand,   think of YS, who you SUPPORT and who was labelling
>
>      DJ communism follower.
>
>
>      I feel sad to wast my time again in response to yours.
>
>
>
>                 MAXIM:
>
>                       Treat people with attitude you are expected to be
>                       treated.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>     1.  Your title:
>>     Then how can you accept the choice of Korean as a whole?
>>     Are they all foolish?  Don't you accept the result?
>>     Isn't it elitism?   I supplied my reasoning why DJ failed.
>>     I have watched your restless support for DJ. When you postied titled
>>     "SHOCKING NEWS.....", it was not shocking news to me and I thought
>>     it was natural results from DJ or opposition party's fundamental
>>      limitations, and so
>
>
>      At least, some of YS supports are foolish.   They are victims of
>
>      Minja's dirty election strategies.   The basic strategy of Minja
>
>      was to build the Honam vs Non-Honam structure which should be kicked
>
>      off from us.  The structure
>
>      gave a great advantege to YS.  The number of legal votors in TK plus
>
>      PK is about 7.5 million while Honam, 3.5 million.  Do you remember the
>
>      Minja's slogan, "If you TK people vote for Jooyoun Jung,  DJ will
>
>      be president."   The YS's dirty play that was spreading a bad rumor
>
>      that DJ is
>
>      a dangerous communism follower,  seemed to influence the
>
>      conservative.   Do you believe DJ is a dangerous communist follower?
>
>      However,  YS enjoyed the elcction with such a old and nasty attack which
>
>      used to be employed by the previous army presidents.
>
>      Do you believe that the votors who are stuck with Jiyuk-Gamjung, can

       judge the candidates right ?   They are blinded by tregionalism.
>
>
>
>
>
>>     I posted my reasoning why he doomed to fail and
>
>
>      Since I disagree with your analysis,  I have been posting my opnions.
>
>      According to the polls,  DJ and YS were in neck-and-neck race right
>
>      after the Pusan scandal.   But the Pusan scandale made TK and PK become
>
>      solid for YS one day before the election day.  Kim Gi-Choon's
>
>      Giyuk-Gamjung comments  triggered their moving.  You can check this
>
>      from YS side's polls results, and others.   In fact,  Kim Gi-Choon was
>
>      named heoro for the election by the Minja congressmen in a meeting.
>
>      I believe DJ was victimized again by the old haunting.
>
>
>      YS should be reponsible for Korean politics's backing to the old time.
>
>      If you see  a survey conducted by Jung-ang Il Bo,  Which party is mostly
>
>      doing corruptive election activities ?
>
>                         Minja:   35 %
>                         Gookmin: 36%
>                         Minju:   2 %
>
       What does it mean ?

>      I don't think I need to comment the polls.
>
>
>
>>     why I can not support him and why I can not forgive his sins which he
>>     has committed in the past because I was his supporter.
>>     Without giving alternative explanation, some netters distorted my posting
s
>     pick up minimal data or words which they believed, can be attacked.
>
>
>     But you forgave YS' morals, dishonesty, and betrayal,  didn't you ?
>
>     It never justifies your argument.
>
>
>
>
>>     I really want to your reasoning or explanation about what happened rather
>>     than your propaganda as a ardent DJ supporter.
>
>
>      I am happy to support him.
>
>
>
>>btlee@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Mr. Byungtae Lee) writes:
>>
>>
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>First of all,  we appreciate your vigorous arguments.   I regret
>>I missed chances to read all of your postings.   I agree with some of
>>opinions,  however I disagree with many of your ideas.  I feel that you
>>are so conservative.   In a sense,  you are a far-right extremist even if
>>you don't like yourself to be categorized.
>>
>>        2.  My political stands:
>>
>>        It is the first time to hear this about my political attitude.
>                   ^^^^^
>
>          Double-check the posts, Aftermath of Election, to see if
>
>          this is first.
>
>
>
>
>>        I have kept asking you guys to provide your definition rather than
>>         your "FEELING" and nobody did that so far. Even I got a blackmail
>>        with full of emotional expressions.
>
>
>         Again,  check first your own FEELING on your previous arguments
>
>
>>        Still I do not understand why you guys have to identify or name other
>>        poeple's political stands without discussing the relevant issues.
>
>
>
>> In reality,  even if one
>>does not say which side he/she is in,   people can classify one in
>>category,  based on his/her trends and preference,  and previous
>>activities, comments,  and experiences.   Thus,  I carefully would
>>put you in rihgt extremism according to your preference/dislike
>>and comments.  You are also free to judge my trend based on what
>>I said before and I am saying.
>>
>>
>>          Give me examples which made you think I am a right-exptremist.
>>          In addition I don't care what you are. I am only interested in
>>          what you are saying. I have posted the facts which I thout were
>>          wrong or outdated or I disagreed. That's it.
>>          I did not blame anyone's preferences unlike you guys.
>
>
>
>           You are still misunderstood yourself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Now these are my opinions in reply to yours.
>>Byeungtae's Claim:
>>
>>>        Why did you ignore the fact that YS trashed so-called "3-parties
>>>        merging-secret-agreement" (Kak-Seo) of which core was parliamentary
>>>        system, and rejected ChongChan Lee and TJ Park's request of that when
>>>        he desparately needed them?
>>
>>Minho's DISCUSSION:
>>         YS was in favor of the parliamentary system between the 87
>>         presidential election and the 3-party merge.
>>
>Byungtae wrote:
>
>>           Nope!  You are saying your story not his story.
>>           What's the evidence of your side?
>>           I told that it was DJ who pushed YS to merge in the previous
>>           threads. Do you remember DJ's compromise with Roh regarding
>>           mid-referendum after he achieved the largiest oppostion leader
>>           based on regionalism after such betrayal to people's wish to have
>>           the first civilian prez.
>
>
>Minho writes:
>            Politics is made progress by a sort of comprimise and yeilding if
>
>            the better thing can be performed.   Yeilding mid-referendum
>
>            made Roh do a lot of
>
>            democritizations in the country.

             Roh was putting his effortd on domocritization to compensate for

             examption of the referendum.  even if

             it was not satisfiable.    But YS's changing party is
>
>            different story.  Specially,  be noticed that Minja was
>
>            artificially constructed by Gunbari.
>
>
>
>>         Whenever people
>>         reprimanded his preference of the parliamentary system over
>>         the president-oriented system,   he withdrew his comments on
>>         his favorite.   Moreover, I remember he announced  abrubtly that
>>         he liked the president-oriented system changing from the
>>         parliamentary system,  right after secret meeting with DJ.
>>         Before announcing that,  of course he had mentioned many times
>>         that he had preferred the parliamentary system.    I remember that
>>         he repeated it several times during the period.   No matter when
>>         he changed his preference,  he used to make bad use of the cheap
>>         words,  "IF OUR PEOPLE WANT".    YS used to abuse the cheap words
>>         when he went down back to his home time,  Geojea-Do after having
>>         power games against other rivals within Minja-Dang.
>>         He is still abusing the cheap words.
>>######
>>               You are saying the secret deal was his preference to
>>               parliamentary system(PS). I do not agree. Only the reason
>>               he merged was that that was only one way to be a prez because
>>               there was his rival DJ in the opposition side and already
>>               then political structure was degraded into rigionalism.
>>######
>>         Let's get to the point.   The first condition for the 3-party
>>         merge was to change the constitution,  that is,  changing from
>>         the presidential-oriented system to the parliamentary system.
>>         He agreed with the main point at that time.  At least,  there
>>         was no problem with the agreement since YS was in favor of
>>         the parliamentary system too.    However,  YS broke the agreement
>>         suddenly.   He even disclosed the secret agreement statement ((
>>         For this scandal,  in the Gwanhoon Club press conference held just
>>         before the 92 presidential election, YS refused for him to disclose
>>         the secret statement.   He rather tried to imply Park Chul-Un did
>>         it.   The columnist who asked him the question in the press conferenc
e
>>         wrote in a column of Ha-Guk Il Bo,  "I am very disappointed with YS's
>>         dishonesty,  I was well prepared evidences for the question.  I met
>>         the YS's follower  to double-check it,  who gave a copy of the
>>         secret staement to press men by YS's request.  Nevertheless,  he
>>         was trying to hide the truth boldly".   The columnist
>>         criticized YS's morals and dishonesty in the column.))
>>#######
>>              Don't you think it was his final bid and original intention to d
o
>>              so?  When such instance broke out, almost all political analysts
>>              agreed that he did not want to obey that secret deal and he knew
>>              that he could break that deal because people did not like
>>              PS and morever, TK did not have any significant poitical leader
>>              he could win his candidacy. What do you think YS's motivation
>>               to mergy then?   To be a prime minister? It's your story.
>>
>>              In additon, NO candidate denied the possibility of PS including
>>              DJ in this election. He changed his firm objection to PS just
>>              20 days before election.
>>#######
>>
>>                    BTW,  WHY DID HE BETRAY the secret statement ?
>>                    : First of all,  he realized that he couldn't
>>                    be guaranteed the prime minister position since
>>                    Minju-Gea could gain a few number of congressional
>>                    seats.   YS got big deafeat in the congressional
>>                    election before.  His political basis was limited
>>                    only to Pusan.  His Minju-Gea got 4 or 5 seats even
>>                    in Seoul.
>>                    It was obvious that the prime minister
>>                    should come from the majority paction,  Minjung-Gae.
>>                    Therfore,  he had to bet a big gambling:  Breaking
>>                    the promise.   Getting back to the presidential-
>>                    oriented system (Also, he didn't forget to abuse
>>                    the cheap words, "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT").
>>##########
>>                  Do you remember this happened before congressional election
>>                  and because he had revealed his ambition just after merge,
>>                  he had to face tough challenge from Chul-Un Park's side.
>>                  Don't change history.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>                  Isn't "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT" the DJ's trademark?
>>                  If he is cheap because of this, DJ is cheaper.
>
>
>                   I don't want to talk about whose trademark it is

                    sicne SCK friends must know what is true.
>
>                   If DJ is cheaper,  YS is cheapest.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>##########
>>
>>                    He declared that he should be candidate of Minja-Dang
>>                    for presidency with his own justification that he was
>>                    only rival to compete with the powerful DJ.
>>                    In conclusion,  I disagree with your insist that
>>                    YS be consistent with preferring the prsident-oriented
>>                    system.   He does NOT have any philasophy on what
>>                    he prefer.  Of course,  the empty brain should not
>>                    have any concrete philosophy and principles.
>>                    His favorites are dependable on if he
>>                    can grasb power or not.   When he broke the secret
>>                    promise,  he didn't explain why he got back to
>>                    the president-oriented system.   He only abused one
>>                    sentence again at the moment at his home town, Geojae-Do,
>>                    "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT".   In the future,  YS are
>>                    very likely to change the system,  depending on
>>                    his political status.
>>
>>##########
>>                        I already gave my judgement why I think he is(was)
>>                        politically wiser than DJ who broke the opposition
>>                        party in 1987 by foolish calculation.
>
>
>
>                     You didn't get my points.
>
>
>
>                     You never consider politician's basic morals, and
>
>                     the people's opnions.    I can smell from your comment
>
>                     that no problem with methods whatsoever,  only for
>
>                     purpose.  I now come to know from you the real

                      political wismdom.
>
>
>
>
>>##########
>>
>>&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
&
>>
>>>        My analysis(?) goes as follows:
>>>        Without real political parties which have the firm roots in people,
>>>        parliamentary system will be the compromise among a few political
>>>        forces when any of them can not sustain their control over the countr
y
>.
>>>        If any of them has the majority support of people or house,
>>>        presidential system will be prefered.
>>
>>
>>         Because of the above problem,   DJ promised to reform the party
>>         systems (Jung-Gea Gea-Pyun) if he were elected.   I believe
>>         that Jung-Gea Gea-Pyun can be achieved. Because MANY of congressmen
>>         in Minja-Dang are servants of the power,  many of them possibly
>>         including some or all of the Gukmin-Dang,  must go to DJ who
>>         is assumed to be president.    And so,  I don't worry about
>>         the control problem.
>>
>>#########
>>                Promise! Promise! Didn't you get my points. He could not build
>>                enough trust from people because he changed so many his
>>                promises.
>
>
>                 DJ should do "Jung-Gea Gea-Pyun" to make him stable
>
>                 regardless of his making promises.  I don't need to
>
>                 explain it anymore.
>
>
>
>
>>                 Arrn't  all politicians servants of the power?
>                         ^^^
>
>
>                  Read my sentence again carefully !!
>
>
>
>
>>                Do you know the guys blamed DJ in  his own party and left him
>>                and returned to him and so on?  Do you remember DJ has
>>                negotiated with even CHUN, BokDong Kim, and JongChan Lee....
>>                So do you mean your hero DJ will embrace so called servants of
>>                power after election? Then what's the defference?
>>#########
>
>
>                At least,  DJ didn' sold his party at cheap price
>
>                to Gunbari-Dang.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
&
>>
>>>        YS has more stable political basis and I do not think it will be
>>>        difficult for YS to have the absolute majority in house.
>>>        Why does he want to change it?
>>>        On the other hand, unfortunately it was obvious again that DJ could
>>                                                                    ^^^^^^^^
>>>        not build his political base outside his province. I am from Choong-
>>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>        Buk where I could not find a bit of DJ support.
>>                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>        Isn't it ridiculous that a man wants to be a national leader without
>>>        political mechanism outside his province?  If he encounter tough
>>>       opposition, what will be his choice?
>>
>>        I think your argument is ridiculous.    As far as I know,  DJ had
>>        the neck-and-neck game in Kyunggi-Do and Choong-Nam.  DJ got 13 %
>>        even in Pusan where YS's stronghold site is, while YS got 0.9 % in
>>        Chulla-Do.   Definitely DJ got 38 % in Seoul winning over YS having
>>        35 (or 36) %.     You said that you could not find a bit of DJ
>>        support.   How can you explain that DJ got 25 % in the election
>>        in Choong-Buk (YS got around 34 %) ?.   Is 25% a bit ?
>>
>>###############
>>           You should have missed my following postings. Ok let me admit
>>           "a bit" was mistake. However, what I said that he failed to reach
>>          enough outside his home province and young progressive groups.
>>          Did you read the article of so-called Pusan "Kikwanjanghoiui"?
>>          Pusan has 10% ex-Homam people.
>
>
>           You are always talking about Honam !,  Honam-based seoul people !
>
>           Show me any evidence that all of Honam-based seoul and Honam-based
>
>           Pusan votors voted for DJ.   How can explain DJ got about 10 %
>
>           in the TK area ?    All of them are again Honam-based TK people ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>###########
>>
>>
>>        You should keep in mind that YS got 28 % in 87 presidential election.
>>        What if DJ had run in Minja-Dang clothes for 92 election ?
>>        There is no doubt DJ could win the election,  surely DJ could
>>        get more percent of voters than YS got.   He would have much more
>>        support in all over areas with Yeo-Dang's premium.  You may disagree
>>        with that.  (When you contradict that,  I want you first to anwer
>>        my question, "Kwankwon's fairness",  for instant,  unfair to
>>        Gukmin-Dang,  cracking down Hyndai's assists to Gukmin-Dang which was
>>        crucial to the 92 election, and so on.)  However,  when DJ was
>>        suggested to join Minja-Dang,  DJ rejected the
>>        proposal of parties merging, while YS betrayed the peoiple accepting
>>        the proposal.
>>
>>#######      Because he was enjoying his position of the largest oppostion
>>             party in the first time in his life and He believed he got the
>>             right way to be a prez.   In addition, he could not catch what
>>             Roh was saying.
>
>
>              I disagree DJ didn't catch it.
>
>              He once mentioned the Roh's proposal at a press-man interview.
>
>              He said that he declined the proposal because our party is
>
>              basically diffrent from Minja in color,  princeples,  and
>
>              objectives.
>
>
>
>>              If he did, what do you think he might do?
>
>
>               Before telling what he might do,  I wouldn' support him.
>
>               I hope now that you can understand my political stand point.
>
>
>
>>#######
>>
>>&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
&
>>           your school support YS.
>>
>>                QUESTION:  How old are they ?
>>                           Where are from in Korea ?
>>                           Do you think they are middle class or
>>                           upper class ?
>>                YOU MUST SPECIFY THE ABOVE THINGS.
>>
>>########
>
>
>           I got the answer to the question from the guy who posted it.
>
>           I am sorry that I can not reveal it in public.
>
>
>
>>########
>>
>>       2. You insisted that most of your frieds supported YS in 87 elction.
>>          You speciifed they were middle class.
>>
>>#########
>>          When I took my experience, I was objecting the other netter's claim
>>          that young generation supports DJ. What I said was that that's very
>>          biased sampling.
>
>
>           Don't you think yours is rather biased if your friends are
>
>           collegiates or collegiated ?     Recall that you said collegiates
>
>           and colliguated people are in favor of DJ.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>   QUESTION:  Do you have any information on that after YS
>>             betrayed the people joining Minja ?
>>
>>#########
>>          You called it betrayal. But I did not.  Why?
>>          Do you believe that his home province voted for him because he was
>>          the opposition leader? No. to make him a president who is the son of
>>          my home town. that's the logic behind his potical share. I insisted
>>          that this is the consequence of splitting oppostion party in 1987
>>          triggered by DJ.  After that we had only regional parties.
>
>
>           Don't twist history.
>
>           You are talking about the congressional election AFTER YS
>
>           joined Minja.
>
>           Recall the congressional election BEFORE YS joined Minja.
>
>           Pusan and other people supported his party since they like YS
>
>           to be against the military regime at that time.  He was always
>
>           shouting "Stop the military regime (Gun-Jung Jong-Shik)".
>
>           However,  what did he do ?   He became  a follower of Gunbari Dang.
>
>           He could be president by their assists.
>
>           Recall my sayings, "The people who are stuck with regionalism can
>
>           not judge something right".   This will be the same in Kyoungsang
>
>           and Cholla.
>
>
>
>           I can forgive a person, YS, but I can not forgive sins he commited.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>           You didn't answer my question.
>
>
>
>
>>#########
>>
>>    QUESTION:  How can you explain the results that most of
>>               my friends in this school,  are in favor of DJ ?
>>               Note:  Most of them are middle class,  f
>>                             seoul,  and are 30th.
>>#########
>>            I DID mention that DJ has strong support form college-
>>          or college-graduated voters. Do you think this group is the majority
?
>>           Wasn't it the answer?  Read more carefully
>>           and do not repeat this stupid things.
>>##########                        ^^^^^^
>                                      ->  Gentle word,  great.
>
>
>
>
>>          For good discussion, we need more cool heads.
>>          Nether idealist without realism nor realist without idealism can
>>          help our society very much.
>
>
>           I agree
>
>
>>          What I said was that oppostion party didn't have scientific approach
,
>>          was not realistic.
>
>
>           I am sick of saying the same things again.    Simply,  without
>
>           kicking off regionalism in Korea,  we can never select a well
>
>           qualified,  wise,  smart, and popular president.  So, scientific,
>
>           realistic whatever can not be applied in that sad situation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     ***  One does not know what he is doing when he is out of control.
>
>          "Know yourself".   It is really difficult maxim even if
>
>          it is really simple sentence.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>                      Minho Jo, Lehigh University
>>                      Computer Integrated Manufacturing Lab.,
>>                      Industrial Engineering Department.
>>                      MJ03@Lehigh.edu
>>
>>    PS: Do IEers like argument? I studied IE for my bacholar degree.
>>        I'm still very interested in CIM tough.
>
>
>
>
>
>Minho Jo.
>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean