HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
From: news@massey.ac.nz (USENET News System)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 23:47:26 GMT
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.tech
Organization: SMIS, Massey University

tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) wrote:

> [...] I don't see how you can conclude that
> the LX compoents are good value for the dollar.  If they > were cheaper maybe but they're generally selling for the > same price as DX!  What is the signifcant 
> improvement to justify this?  

The DX line has been discontinued, and has been *replaced* by LX, which is
every bit as good in terms of performance and quality of componentry as the
old DX (apart from the painted cranks which I don't like either.)

Bill Lloyd writes:

> [...] LX doesn't offer thumbshifters.  That settles it.  
> LX (and XTR) are bad things because they don't offer 
> thumbshifters. [...]

But LX does.  As far as I know, DX & XT above bar thumbshifters are still
available.  Even if DX have been discontinued, XT thumbshifters are still
about half the price of DX and (by assumption) new LX RapidFire shifters.

--
Phil Etheridge               P.Etheridge@massey.ac.nz
Macintosh Consultant         Phone: +64+6-356-9099 x8689
SMIS, Massey University      Fax:   +64+6-350-5611
Palmerston North, NZ         40*23'S 175*37'E,    GMT+13
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
Subject: Re: Comments Wanted: Carmicahel Prod. Pulleys
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 12:51:24 GMT

>Colorado Cyclist has these rear derailleur pulleys that are supposed to
>work with Shimano SIS shifters. (Ti, sealed bearings) Anyone else using
>them?

I haven't tried them, but the picture in the Colorado Cyclist catalog
isn't too impressive.  All those holes looks like a bad idea ... I'd
expect them to collect dirt.


-- 
Richard Foulk		richard@pegasus.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: mmckenna@bnr.ca (Michael McKenna)
Subject: Quattro components anyone?
Reply-To: mmckenna@bnr.ca (Michael McKenna)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:01:48 GMT

My brother is looking at a bike equipped with QUATTRO components.
I was hoping someone out there might know something about them,
who makes them, quality, cost etc.  The used bike, apparently in 
good shape is a BIANCHI QUATTRO (what a coincidence!) and the asking
price is $425 cdn.  Any thoughts?

Thanks, Mike McKenna
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: lloyd@leland.Stanford.EDU (William Koenig Lloyd)
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 02:40:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.234735.24473@sol.UVic.CA> cfraser@sol.UVic.CA (Golden Girls) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.005740.22250@leland.Stanford.EDU> lloyd@leland.Stanford.EDU (William Koenig Lloyd) writes:
>>
>>Yes, Shimano LX stuff is ugly, and it is probably less durable than XTR.  But
>>what do you expect?  When it is new it supposedly works as well as XTR.  Of
>>course, LX is a whole lot cheaper than XTR, too.  The decrease in price had
>>to come from somewhere.  Cheaper materials are one reason.  If you want 
>>something that works as well as XTR and lasts as long as XTR, there's a simple
>>solution:  buy XTR.  
>>
>
>This is only slightly related to the current thread, well it is actually
>kind of close.....anyhow.
>I am gonna take a big risk and say something nasty about XTR. Forgive
>my ignorance but I don't know if this has been discussed already this
>year. 
>
>XTR works very nicely, no doubt. 8 speed, smooth as silk brakes and
>a whole lot of really small touches that really set the group apart
>from anything else I have seen. BUT it costs almost twice as much
>as an XT group. Now, I ask you, has anybody out there had an XTR
>group last as long as 2 XT groups, a group that works 90% as well
>as XTR and is more than adequate for anybody but a very very very
>serious rider (ie PRO). How can somebody justify $200CDN for a
>headset when it is one of the most "disposable" parts on the bike?
>The rear deraileur is a work of art, but $150CDN for something
>that is so commonly broken?? I used to think that there was a limit
>on what people would spend on "disposable" components. Obviously
>XTR has proved me wrong. But then it is your money and this is just
>my $0.02CDN worth.
>

I would agree that while XTR costs twice as much as XT, it doesn't work
twice as well or last twice as long.  But it does work a little better
and it is a little lighter.

But, I don't think Shimano cared one bit about quantifying how much better
the stuff works and setting the price accordingly.  I'm sure Shimano employs
some economists, who made a pretty good guess as to what the market would
support, and set the price accordingly.  People do buy the stuff (and I'll
admit pay too much for it).  I'm sure that's what Shimano's chief concern
is.

Bill
From: craigb@sdd.hp.com (Craig Bosworth)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Date: 7 Jan 1993 10:46:24 -0800
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdl136.sdd.hp.com

Despite the painted components, MBA did say that LX is "the best mid
priced component group ever made."

I don't mean to start a war here or anything, but why are some people
so put off by painted components?  Sure, they get trashed looking
after a few rides (mine did), but cosmetics aren't that important to
me.

Just wondering...
-- 
Craig Bosworth  (619) 592-8609
Hewlett-Packard, San Diego Division
craigb@sdd.hp.com
From: budn@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Bud Noren)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Re: measuring chain wear? [summary]
Date: 8 Jan 93 16:56:23 GMT
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (SRSD MWTD)

pgf@cayman.com (Paul Fox) writes:

>hi -- i once read a simple rule that could be used to determine if your
>chain needs replacing -- something like "if 10 links measure longer than so
>many inches", or something like that -- can anyone refresh my memory?

Sorry I can't tell you the rule but I can suggest an easier way to tell
when the chain needs replacing.  It begins to make a buzzing sound when
you're spinning even when the drive train is very clean and also the
shifting starts getting sloppy.  With the cheap Sedis chains I use this
happens in about 1500 miles.

-Bud
From: chandy@marais.inria.fr (Chandra SHEKHAR)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Flaky halogen/lead acid light
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:19:00 GMT
Organization: INRIA, Sophia-Antipolis (Fr)

In article <1993Jan7.132020.8682@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>, grande@cbnewsd.cb.att.com
(brad.l.grande) writes:

(As an explanation for bicycle lamp malfunction)

|> Areas that can exhibit lose/corroded connections include rivets that
|> connect
|> metal in the circuit path, screws doing the same thing, insulation
|> displacement
|> lugs at the end of wires, contacts that connect to the battery, and as
|> mentioned earlier the bulb socket.
|> 


Can't one solder all the connections in place? And use two
wires instead of using the body of the bike as the earth?

Chandy

P.S. Is there anybody in France other than me who is trying
to build a bike lighting system? It will be interesting to
compare notes.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 10:42:02 GMT

In article <19930107.115438.653@almaden.ibm.com>, fattire@vnet.ibm.com (BJ Hargrave) writes:

|> Check out the Altus C-10(?) cranks. The chainrings are spot-welded to
|> the crankarm spider! I guess the chainrings must be really durable. :-)

Yes, this is a big problem for 'heavy' offroad use.  No log climbing using
the outer ring as a pinion !  The main advantage of the LX and Altus range
over their predecessors is weight.  Apparently the Shimano marketiers want
to steal some of the after market business enjoyed buy the small American
outfits.  Certainly the old 200GS and LX range were none too spectacular.

Mountain Bike UK polished the black paint off their LX components, so that's
one solution to this problem.

While any aethsetically (sp?) aware rider won't buy this stuff I expect it
offers a reasonable solution.  Most of the Altus bikes will receive on-road
or light usage and the owners will never change the chainrings and will be
happy with the better performance and weighloss.  Personally I find many of the
recent cranksets (LX, ONZA etc.) ugly and not comparable with a work of art
such as the Cooks Bros.

David.
From: pgf@cayman.com (Paul Fox)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: measuring chain wear?
Date: 6 Jan 93 17:38:13 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]


hi -- i once read a simple rule that could be used to determine if your
chain needs replacing -- something like "if 10 links measure longer than so
many inches", or something like that -- can anyone refresh my memory?

and while we're at it, is there a way to determine whether my freewheel
cogs or chainwheels will take a new chain?  It'd be easier to know before
starting a replacement that I was going to have to redo the whole drive
train, instead of having to deal with chain skip for a few rides until I
get the new cogs or put the old chain back.  (this experience is a little
old -- has anything changed in chain/cog technology that makes it a non-
problem these days?)

--
		paul fox, pgf@cayman.com, (617)494-1999
		Cayman Systems, Inc., 26 Landsdowne St., Cambridge, MA 02139
From: miolnir@stein.u.washington.edu (Scot Thorstad)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Loose headset
Date: 7 Jan 1993 19:08:39 GMT
Organization: None
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu


My headset starts getting loose about the end of every month or so.
How can I cure this problem?  I ride a lot of stairs and bumps, could
this be the problem? Mountain bikes are supposed to be tough, though.
Has anyone had any experience with one of those gorilla headlocks?
TIA,
miolnir
From: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Plastic Ring on rear Wheel
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:23:23 GMT
Reply-To: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.bicycles.tech, dinsmm@aix.rpi.edu (Michael Dinsmore) writes:
>Is the plastici ring next to the freewheel on the
>back tire important?

It's great for keeping your bike from being stolen. Almost as effective
as fenders, but weighs less.
From: pardo@cs.washington.edu (David Keppel)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Date: 9 Jan 93 23:02:23 GMT
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle

>[Are Shimano LX components reasonable or are they junk?]

Crank arms fail rarely but catastrophically.  One reason to avoid
painted cranks is so that you can inspect them.  By contrast, painted
frames are fine because most frame failures do not cause injury.

	;-D on  ( The ol' crank and spindle show )  Pardo
From: wade@hobbes.ucsd.edu (Wade Blomgren)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Flaky halogen/lead acid light
Date: 6 Jan 1993 23:19:42 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: hobbes.ucsd.edu

I've got a 2.5w "brite lite" halogen headlight (and companion normal
bulb taillight) system driven by a 7.5v lead acid battery pack.

The light is flaky in the following way:

Sometimes, when turned on, it does not come on right away.  It springs
to life an arbitrary number of seconds (or minutes) later, with no
"help" (no wiggling of wires, thumping of battery, etc).  Sometimes
it will come on dimly right before lighting up fully.  Once lit, it
burns brightly until turned off (most of the time).

Other times (this is happening more frequently over the last few days),
it will come on (after a few seconds) brightly, then dim dramatically
and stay dim for a while, then (again arbitrarily, it seems to me)
go to full brightness after some number of minutes (up to 10 minutes),
and continue burning bright.

I've done a cursory check of the connections.  It seems to be charging OK, 
and when it burns it burns bright (well, 2.5 watts worth of bright
anyway.)

My questions are:  is a delay on startup expected with this type of
light?  and what might be wrong that would cause it to remain (or go)
dim periodically, only to go fully bright again later (and typically
stay bright once it decides to stay on)?  I have theorized that it
might be a flaw within the battery, or the switch, but I don't know
how to go about testing or what I would be looking for.

Any suggestions would be appreciated,

Wade Blomgren
wade@hobbes.ucsd.edu
From: peter@helix.ObjecTime.on.ca (Peter Epstein)
Subject: Re: Wheel Wonderings
Organization: ObjecTime Limited
Distribution: bnr
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 17:08:40 GMT

If you have trouble keeping your spokes from getting loose, you can apply
locktite to the threads.  There is a special kind of locktite for this
purpose that you apply afterwords, rather than the more common variety
that you apply directly to the threads before you screw on the nipple.
You apply this type of locktite via the end of the spoke (where the
screwdriver slot is).

However, as you say, nice tight spokes don't reach zero tension, so they
should stay tight, even if the threads were greased to make wheel building
easier.
-- 
   ,__o                                                  ,__o
 _-\_<,     Peter Epstein   peter@objectime.on.ca      _-\_<,
(*)/'(*)                                              (*)/'(*)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Advice on Light Parts
From: news@massey.ac.nz (USENET News System)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 01:49:32 GMT
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.tech
Organization: SMIS, Massey University

On lightening Mt Bikes, johnb@chaos.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Brown)
wrote:
 
> Check out your tires.  When I replaced my tires recently, I noticed that there
> was a huge weight difference between the Panaracer Dart/Smoke pair and their
> equivalent folding tires, something like 240gm (~1/2 lbs).  (The folding tires
> being lighter of course!)  For the price difference between the pairs of
> about $15 to $20 this is probably about the cheapest 1/2 pound you'll save.

I second this, and would add, that, if the conditions are up to it, using
the Kevlar-beaded 1.9" Smoke Lite Compe tyres front and rear (please bring
out a 1.9" Kevlar Dart, Panaracer!) save nearly a pound (~450g)!

--
Phil Etheridge               P.Etheridge@massey.ac.nz
Macintosh Consultant         Phone: +64+6-356-9099 x8689
SMIS, Massey University      Fax:   +64+6-350-5611
Palmerston North, NZ         40*23'S 175*37'E,    GMT+13
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 15:31:32 GMT

>>As for this stuff about Bridgestone and DX, I don't know what your point is.
>>I'll bet the new LX stuff is at least as expensive as DX is, but I haven't seen
>>the group prices so I can't be sure.  The new LX stuff (according to MBA at
>>least) works better than DX, too.  Ohhh, but wait.  Now I know.  LX doesn't
>>offer thumbshifters.  That settles it.  LX (and XTR) are bad things because
>>they don't offer thumbshifters.  Never mind the fact that quite a few people
>>think they work really well, as whoever yells the loudest wins.  We all know
>>who yells loudest around here.

Whaahhhh! :(  Reread my post.  I said I can see why some people prefer
Rapidfire Plus.  I don't.  Every time we have this argument I give
reasons for my statments and say it is my opinion.  You just whine.
My major complaint about LX is not Rapidfire.  It is that a group
that is on $800+ bikes has painted components.  I think this is
an unfortuante trend in the industry.  However it does leave an
opening for Suntour who has the brains to come out with a new cheaper
group (Expert) that is chromed.
-Terry
-- 
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: pcbk1@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (bryan.s.katz)
Subject: Which chain tool?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 11:22:15 GMT

  Tired of cleaning my chain on the bike, I'm thinking of taking it off
  every little while (3-500 miles) and clean it.    Does this make sense?
  If so, which of the chain tools should I get?  I see that if I want to,  
  I can spend upwards of $80 or as low as $10-$20.  Any advice?

  b.katz
  "no disclaimer yet"
From: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: B. Rohloff on Rohloff chains
Date: 5 Jan 93 13:51:11 GMT
Reply-To: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.bicycles.tech, jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>     ....  If the Rohloff design removes this problem then an
>improvement in price/performance has been made.  ....

I don't know about that, have you seen the price of the Rohloff?  It's
about four times that of a Sedisport.  It'd either have to be _awfully_
good, or last a hell of a long time.

David Mackintosh
From: klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Avocet 30 on a 32-Spoke?
Date: 13 Jan 1993 01:05:31 GMT
Organization: DEC Western Software Laboratory
Distribution: world
Reply-To: klee@wsl.dec.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: alhambra.pa.dec.com

|> I'm transfering my Avocet 30 which the ring was mounted on a 36-spoke to my
|> new bike/wheel 32-spoke, only it doesn't quite fit right.  Does AV make a
|> ring for the 32-s or what?

They have a 4 prong ring for 32 spoke wheels.  Cost is a couple of
dollars at any Avocet dealer.

-- 
Ken Lee
DEC Western Software Laboratory, Palo Alto, Calif.
Internet: klee@wsl.dec.com
uucp: uunet!decwrl!klee
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: ezag637@chpc.utexas.edu (Steve Manifold)
Subject: Frame alignment check
Organization: The University of Texas System - CHPC
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 16:10:47 GMT


Richard Foulk writes:

>Here's a paragraph out of a book I just bought on frame building that
>answers a question posed here some time back about checking a frame
>for alignment.  The book is Designing and Building Your Own Frameset (An
>Illustrated Guide For The Amateur Bicycle Builder), by Richard P. Talbot.
>
>	The ``acid'' test is to check the tracking.  To perform this test,
>  snap a 30 foot long chalk line onto a smooth surface such as a gymnasium
>  floor.  Mount a stem and handlebar on the frameset.  Center the front
>  and rear wheels on one end of the chalk line and hold the frameset so it
>  is vertical to the floor.  (A carpenter's spirit level taped onto the
>  handlebar drops will help here.)  Now, slowly push the wheeled frameset
>  along, keeping its front wheel centered on the line while maintaining
>  perpendicularity.  After traveling about 15 feet check the position of
>  the rear wheel.  It should still be centered on the line.  If it is not,
>  the frameset is out of alignment.  It could be due to misalignment in
>  the fork, the frame, or a combination of the two.  If the rear wheel is
>  still on the line after 30 feet, you can be assured your frameset is
>  aligned. ...

It seems that a rear wheel not perfectly centered in the dropouts will 
also result in the wheel wandering out of the path of the front wheel, 
regardless of frame alignment.  Or am I missing something?
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
Steve Manifold                                              University of Texas 
ezag637@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu                           College of Engineering
tasc637@crovax.cem.utexas.edu                       Center for Electromechanics
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: H.ZIERKE@BI-LINK.owl.de (Hans-Joachim Zierke)
From: chandler@wc.novell.com (Mark Chandler)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Wheel Wonderings
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:06:02 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc. - Walnut Creek

In article <1460052@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:

>Mark Chandler writes:
>
>> You could try Wheelsmith's 14/16/14 spokes.  They're lighter than
>> 14/15/14s and probably just as strong (I weigh 195 and ride them
>> off-road with Mavic Mod3Ds).
>
>Their spokes are not really 14/16/14 because that would cause spokes
>to fail on tightening (that is if you get them tight).  The spoke
>diameters most commonly in use are 2.0/1.8/2.0 mm and 1.8/1.6/1.8 mm
>in diameter with small variations in the smaller diameter.  There
>are also 1.8/1.55/1.8 and thinner spokes and these are the ones that
>rupture just about the time you get them tight because the torsional
>stress of tightening together with the tension make them exceed the
>rupture stress.  The combined torsion and tensile stresses have a
>greater effect than the sum of their independent effects.

OK, they're not *really* 14/16/14, but that's one of the ways that
Wheelsmith refers to them (the other is double-butted 14g).  They
measure 2.0/1.7/2.0; which isn't 14/15/14 OR 14/16/14, but since
they're thinner than 14/15/14s, they call them what they do.  The
wheels themselves seem strong enough.  BTW, these were built by
Wheelsmith the company, NOT Wheelsmith the bike shop (although the
two are related).  Maybe the wheels stay true because I routinely
run very large tires (e.g., 700x40C).

>jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com


--
Mark Chandler              Novell, Inc.         510/975-4522
chandler@wc.novell.com     Walnut Creek, CA     AOL: Crosswords
===============================================================
   The opinions expressed above are mine, not my employer's.
From: rodney@toad.OCE.ORST.EDU (Rodney James)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Date: 8 Jan 1993 18:37:12 GMT
Organization: University Computing Services - Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: toad.oce.orst.edu
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:

: I don't think so.  I'm buying a Bridgestone MB-3 with Deore DX and Dia-Compe
: 986 brakes for $800.  The Bianchi Pergerine 93 has Deore LX painted
: components and also sells for $800.  I don't see how you can conclude that

Or how about the Kona model (can't remember the name) that sells for $875,
weighs 24 lbs. and comes with Deore XT.


From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:37:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Spokes
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech

Markus Sperzel writes:

about zigzag spokes:

> The advantage of this kind of spoke is, that you don't have to
> open the hub to get the flat part of the spoke through the
> holes of the hub. You just put the bowed end of the spoke
> through the holes of the hub. This won't weaken the hubring and
> it lasts longer.  I saw this kind of spokes at Ricardo
> Probert's bike at the Students Triathalon World Championships at
> Darmstadt last August. He said he bought them in a shop. I
> forgot to ask him what brand they are.  So could anybody help
> me where to find these spokes or what brand it is?

You should be aware that zigzag headed spokes do not last long in a
wheel because the bend gradually squirms out of the hole if the
spokes are properly tight.  This feature has been used for
replacement spokes to be inserted in the event of a spoke failure on
the road.  The technique is not new but it has never been widely
used because it has poor reliability.

> Ricardo's front wheel missed some spokes. I'm not sure, but I
> think he spoked a 36 hole hub with only 24 spokes (type
> described above). Every third spoke missed. (To make sure: I
> asked him about this and he said, that he spoked it that way)
> Has anybody out there any experience with a wheel spoked this
> way?  What would be the best way to spoke a wheel like this
> (How many crossings, what hubs, what rims etc.)?
> Would this be o.k. for somebody who weights 70 - 75 kg?

Most likely, if you used them sparingly over fairly smooth roads.
As I said, in time with properly tight spokes the heads will squirm
out of the holes.  The obvious advantages of these spokes should
make one wonder why they aren't in common use.  That reason is that
they do not make a reliable wheel.  We often hear of people who are
going to use them.  I would like to hear of some long term users.
Bike shops that carry these spokes have not given them a glowing
reception.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech