HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: BOOK REVIEW: Collier's _The Rise of Selfishness..._
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:02:15 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <Bsw3Is.Dv3@hsi.com> kellys@code3 (Kelly Sorensen) writes:
>In article <11AUG199211231320@mars.lerc.nasa.gov> smpod@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:
>>kellys@code3 (Kelly Sorensen) writes...
>>> ...
>>>5.      Immigrants take it square on the nose in Collier's book.  He's
>>>        somewhat sensitive to how appalling work conditions contributed
>>>        to their world view;  but he seems to hold them accountable at some
>>>        level for the rise of selfishness in America.  Do you agree with
>>>        this?  Do other historians consider the influence of the immigrants
>>>        on American mores as drastic as Collier does?
>>
>>Who does Colliers consider as immigrants?
>
>He seems to be talking principally about German and Irish immigrants in
>the big wave of about 1845-1860, and the wave of immigrants that tended
>to be more from south and eastern Europe from about 1880-1920.
>
I think there is a tendancy for all immigrants (not just those groups)
to be more non-conformist, adventurous, and anti-social than those
who stay behind, who are more contented or at least willing to put
up with the conditions in the old country.  Also, many immigrants
to America were kicked out for being undesirables from their homelands,
or for being religious non-conformists.  It is hardly surprising that
with such a population, we are more individualist, creative, eccentric,
and violent than Europe.  There have been plusses and minuses both
to the motly crew that came here.




-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.history:7570 soc.culture.japan:7126
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:06:05 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization

In article <Bt9JuD.KAJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu> slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer) writes:

>Ain't that the truth, Abba.  Noticed your thread, and thought I'd throw in
>a side bit of info, in case you didn't already know it.  Seems the Japanese
>petitioned the League of Nations to remove a part of their charter which
>referred to Asians as "inferior races".  The League refused.  The Japanese
>left the League shortly thereafter.  For an excellent overview of the 
>Pacific war as a race war, read John Dwyer's "War without Mercy" - it
>changed the way I looked at the whole theatre of operations.  Combine his
>evidence with what we already know about biology-as-destiny in the Third
>Reich, and the whole damn thing gets very scary in a radically new way.

Why? It's difficult to see the Pacific War as a "race war". After all, the
Japanese attacked, subjugated, and attempted to eradicate the culture of
Korea, and last I checked, they are of the same race (in fact, the Japanese
Royal family is most likely descended from Korean nobility). They then
attempted to annex Manchuria (again, Asians lived there). Their attacks on 
the British, French, and Dutch possesions didn't occur until well after those
nations had their hands full with the Germans. Harldy indicates that the war,
so far as the Japanese were concerned, had any idealogical aspects beyond
real politik.

As for Germany, while Hitler had pronounced racist characteristics, the war
was basically a result of a desire for land-grabbing for economic expansion.
In other words, not much different from the Japanese in Asia.

Now, while not to denigrate in any way, shape, or form your pointing out the
garbage in the League's charter, but bear in mind that governments and 
individuals USUALLY go with their economic, rather than racial, interests.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^H  man vi ^@  ^L  ^[c  ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help  helpquit ^D  ^d 
man help ^C ^c help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d..."
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: kill files (again)
From: smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 02:11:36 GMT
Organization: Cal State Long Beach

UH oh, here come the topic cops. YOU"RE BUSTED!

smittie
-- 
___________________________________________________________________________
GEnie, MCI, AOL:Smittie | If all of us were as smart as we think we are the
smittie@beach.csulb.edu |  current world problems would be yesterday's news.
________________________|___________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Subject: Re: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 06:47:08 GMT

In article <11756@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> 
> We only had the first verse in songbooks when I was in school.
> A few years back, when I was looking for an appropriate title
> for a book*, I had occasion to go find the entire song, and I
> immediately saw why we didn't get the rest of the verses in
> school -- the subsequent verses were subversive and dangerous
> to secular thought, including such dangerous ideas as: "As
> Christ died to make men holy, let us die to make men free."
> 

I remember that verse.  Of course I went to school in Eastern New
Mexico, which, like West Texas is in the middle of the bible belt.
=== Al Sparks
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
From: briand@anasaz (Brian Douglass)
Date: 13 Aug 92 07:56:44 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <22828@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> meyer@tcville.HAC.COM (Mike Meyer) writes:
>
>Can anybody here either fill me in or point me to a reference about the
>origin of the song "Battle Hymn of the Republic?"
>
>When was it written?  Did it pre-date the civil war?  Was it written as
>a propaganda song for the war?   Where was it first published or heard?

From the Concord Desktop Encylcopaedia (My EB is too far away!) without
permission:

American patriotic song, unofficial hymm of Union troops in the Civil War.
Written in 1861 by Julia Ward Howe and sung to the tune of John Brown's
Body, it later became a Protestant hymm and Protestant marching song.

-- 
"... For I have sworn upon the alter of god, eternal hostility against
every form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
Brian Douglass		briand@anasazi.com 	602-870-3330 X657
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Wednesday, 19 August, 1942
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:00:13 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Aug20.171146.1241@compu.com> fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) writes:
>
>Does anybody here know what the purpose of this raid was? It was an obvious 
>suicide mission, but why? Were all the raiders volunteers?
>
>fred
>
The purpose of the Dieppe raid was to gather experience and knowledge for
futher big landing in France. The spcial emphasis was given to cooperation
between Navy, Air Power and infantry in an attact from the see. 
Allies were suppoused to land on the beach, crush the resistnace,
destroy everything they could AND TAKE POW. In fact everyone taking part
in this assault was equipped with (1?) pair of handcuffs to facilitate
transport of German POW's. Unfortunately ab 4000 pairs of handcuffs with
other equipment got into German hands... and they used them to chain the
allies POW's. In fact Germans "punished" captured soldiers by keeping them
handcuffed in pairs for next few months (6 or so) in the POW's camps.

chris

--

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania | If you can't learn  
Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter | to do it well,
Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                | learn to enjoy doing it badly.
From: smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: kill files (again)
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:26:31 GMT
	<SMITTIE.92Aug11165542@lark.csulb.edu>
	<1992Aug12.093245.1@acad3.alaska.edu>
Organization: Cal State Long Beach

>You see, there's people out there who think kill files are unethical, and are
>willing to argue about it.  I don't mind, as long as they take it to
>news.misc.

My question, sir, is why I am taken to task for a single question about .kill
files while another individual posts ad naseum about an issue that is at best
only very loosely related to history?

It was never my intention to begin a discussion on the ethics of .kill files, I
would not have participated in one had it developed and, alas such a
conversation did not develop. I do not mind your efforts to keep discussions in
their appropriate place. I wish that Mutlu would keep his ramblings in their
appropriate place. He cross-posts his comments to five plus groups and much of
what he has to say has little to do with the discipline of history. Why isn't
someone taking him to task as well??

smittie


-- 
___________________________________________________________________________
GEnie, MCI, AOL:Smittie | If all of us were as smart as we think we are the
smittie@beach.csulb.edu |  current world problems would be yesterday's news.
________________________|___________________________________________________
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What happened in 1419?
Keywords: "we shall not see them relit in our lifetime"
Date: 22 Aug 92 03:24:52 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <1992Aug22.022354.12229@midway.uchicago.edu> mss2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>My goodness!  Mr. Jewell pulled your leg and it appears to have come
>off in his hand.  :-)  Didn't you get suspicious when he asserted that
>the entire year had been cancelled in September?  Not to mention the
>stuff about 1914?

 Some of the 1914 was mine, but I can't take credit for canceling the year
at September (though I would if I could figure a way :-).
>Mike
>-- 
>Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS	"Workers of the world, forgive me.

 (Wenceslas' death wasn't my fault either.)

Larry J

-- 
#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)     WWII-L Listowner    jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu # 
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #
Xref: sparky soc.history:7234 soc.culture.yugoslavia:7874
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Pres.Tudjman about Jasenovac, Part II
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:35:36 EDT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

My previous text lost its title.
Sorry,

Milan 
Xref: sparky soc.history:7531 soc.culture.nordic:5193
From: viking@bnr.ca (Harold Henrikson)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Vikings (Berserkers, mushrooms,missile weapons)
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:53:14 GMT
Reply-To: viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development

With all the speculation on the use of drugs in causing the berserker state I am
surprised nobody tied it to the amok state that is/was common in the Phillipines.
In both cases the result is a single-minded pursuit of mayhem without regards to
one's personal state.  In the case of the vikings it was a conscious act; in the
case of the Phillipines I believe it is an impulse - but the result is the same.

--
Harold Henriksen                    Bell-Northern Research
email: viking@bmerh694.bnr.ca       Ottawa,Ontario,Canada 

Pillaging and plundering were more fun than programming!
(Opinions are not my employer's and sometimes not mine)
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: aa727@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Johnny Wu)
Subject: Chinese Meet Romans?
Reply-To: aa727@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Johnny Wu)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 23:13:19 GMT


After reading this sig, I got a tiny question, is it true that the
Chinese in Han Dynasty tried to meet the Romans? What about later on
did the chinese travel to the west in 200A.D. to 250 A.D.?

-- 
No one is a failure... Keep up your dream and you will find it!
Ask always WISDOM from God!
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Histyory questions:
Date: 15 Aug 92 22:50:33 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Aug13.143722.25631@cs.mun.ca> brian@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Brian Paquet) writes:
>I also remember reading about the chinese traveling to Parthia
>[they stoped them from getting to rome...
>again this is a while ago...

One of the interesting what if's of history.  The Parthians tried very
hard (and very successfully) to keep the Han Chinese and Romans from
ever meeting each other.  First of all, they wanted to keep their
dominance of the silk trade, and second, they were terrified of being
torn apart by a Roman/Chinese alliance.

I wonder what would have happen had the Romans and the Chinese met?


Newsgroups: soc.history
From: s0067284@ursa.calvin.edu (Jeffrey Veen)
Subject: *** History Books Forsale ***
Keywords: history, books, forsale
Organization: Calvin College
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 03:22:07 GMT



I have the following books of a historical nature for sale.
$40 for them all and I'll pay shipping (What a bargin!)
Interest?  Let me know soon as I am moving in 2 weeks.

Jeff Veen
s0067284@calvin.edu

Title                                                Author
------------------------------------------------------------------
A Behavioral Approach to Historical Analysis.........Berkhofer
The Next American Frontier...........................Reich
Industrialism: The American Experience...............Benziger
The Presidential Campaign of 1968....................Chester
The Rise of the West: 1754-1830......................Philbrick
Britain in the 20th Century..........................Reynolds
The Puritan Dilema...................................Morgan
The American Presidency..............................Laski
Approaches to Auschwitz..............................Rubenstein
The Good War: An Oral History of WWII................Terkel
A Preface to History.................................Gustavson
The New Age of Franklin Roosevelt....................Dexter Perkins
The Road to the White House..........................Wayne
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: hyde@cs.dal.ca (Bill Hyde)
Subject: Re: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:22:44 GMT

In article <11756@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

|> 
|> During the Civil War, a poem by Julia Ward Howe was fit to the
|> tune from "John Brown's Body."  "Battle Hymn of the Republic"
|> has either four, five, or six verses, depending on where you
|> look, though the sixth verse is not by Howe.
|> 
|> We only had the first verse in songbooks when I was in school.
|> A few years back, when I was looking for an appropriate title
|> for a book*, I had occasion to go find the entire song, and I
|> immediately saw why we didn't get the rest of the verses in
|> school -- the subsequent verses were subversive and dangerous
|> to secular thought, including such dangerous ideas as: "As
|> Christ died to make men holy, let us die to make men free."


	I think your paranoia is showing.  In school we had the
	whole song (or at least up to that verse, which I remember well).

	This in a different, and allegedly more secular country
	(and in Toronto, yet - the most irreligious part of the
	country, as it was referred to recently).

	Never attribute to a conspiracy what you can attribute
	to lazyness.



						Bill Hyde
Department of Oceanography
Dalhousie University,
Halifax, Nova Scotia
hyde@Ice.ATM.Dal.Ca or hyde@dalac

Xref: sparky soc.history:7227 soc.culture.yugoslavia:7869
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:03:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Aug12.190346.14672
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

>In article <1992Aug11.184018.322@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>
>>On Tudjman's book: It's easy to quote someone out of context when you want to.
>>                   The book is about man's inhumanity to man throught history,
>>and while Tudjman's rambling prose never made him a bestselling historian, 
>>Serbian desire to portray Croats as "genocidal people who should be kept
>>under Serbian domination in order to protect the world" has meant that Tudman's
>>book would become a target.  To see what kind of conflict which is going on, 
>>read the following paper:

Probably you meant "as a people with occasional tendencies toward
exterminating Serbs who should not be allowed to rule over them."
That is what war in Croatia was all about.

>>
>>Sincerely,
>>
>>Josip

Now, I take this as a challenge to produce the text from Tudjmans book.  
And I am doing that in posting that follows this one. 

Regards,

Milan 
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: England since 1688
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Aug19.170930.21386@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:05:51

James II tried again via Ireland and was defeated at the battle of the
Boyne in 1690, since celebrated as a holdiday by the Northern Irish
Protestants.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: soc.history
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Re: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:57:00 GMT

In article <22828@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>, meyer@tcville.HAC.COM (Mike Meyer) writes...
>Can anybody here either fill me in or point me to a reference about the
>origin of the song "Battle Hymn of the Republic?"


The music for the song is derived from something called "Glory
Hallelujah", which pre-dates Howe's poem, and the Civil War. 
The New Grove Dictionary of American Music, in a brief entry,
has no information about the origin of "Glory Hallelujah." I
have a special interest in tracking down the origin of the music
because the tune occurs in Brahms's Piano Concerto #2, and I've
wondered for a long time whether his use of it was coincidental
or whether he was quoting it in the same spirit he quoted
elsewhere in his works material ranging from earlier composers
to the clock-chiming theme. In rec.music.classical, Roger Lustig
suggested I write to George Bozarth, a Brahms scholar at the U.
of Washington. This I did last December, but have not heard from
him. 
Newsgroups: soc.history,rec.arts.books
From: calvo@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Sherri Calvo)
Subject: Re: E.W. - Anastasia did survive!
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA - Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:24:00 GMT

In article <14AUG199206482071@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov>, packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes...
>In article <1992Aug12.202332.13487@cs.ucla.edu>, reiher@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Peter Reiher) writes...
>>A recent book by a Soviet author who, for the first time, had access to
>>materials hidden away in Russian archives, including Nicholas II's
>>personal diaries and documents relating to the execution, is supposed to 
>>pretty much nail the lid shut on the possibility of any of the Tsar's 
>>children survived.  ... 
> 
> 
> 
>This is the same author who was on the "Today" show and said he 
>believed there were survivors! And another book review, in "Book
>World" of the Washington Post (Aug. 2) went on at length about how
>his book reaches the conslusion that "not only might Anastasia
>have survived, but so too might her brother..."
> 
>The book in question is "The Last Tsar", by Edvard Radzinsky.
> 
> 


In a recent issue of one of the weekly news magazines (US News & World 
Report or Newsweek; sorry I don't have a more precise reference) there 
was an item on the investigations at Ekaterinburg that are now being 
allowed by the Russian government. Remains have been discovered that 
are believed to be those of the Tsar's entire family and two servants. 
Positive identifications have been made on the remains of Nicholas and 
Alexandra, and I believe that they will be trying to identify the 
others as well.

The youngest child and only son of Tsar Nicholas II, Alexis, was a 
hemophiliac and thus extremely unlikely to have survived an 
assassination attempt and subsequent fleeing under difficult 
conditions. I imagine that was why most of the rumors have 
focused on Anastasia, the next youngest child (and therefore most 
likely to still be alive decades later as these stories kept 
circulating). Neither was Anna Anderson the only claimant to her 
identity; at least, I remember reading two different Anastasia 
"autobiographies".

Sherri

Sherri Chasin Calvo
calvo@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
From: salter_duke@darwin.ntu.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Roman trivia
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:50:05 +0900


A couple of books by the same author that I'm sure would answer both
questions:

Food in History
Sex in History

both by Reay Tannahill

Full of all the ordinary mundane details of daily life, and how
these mundane details affect the "Kings & Wars" view of history 
that is what we usually get.

Linden

-- 
Linden Salter-Duke		email: SALTER_DUKE@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU
Northern Territory University
Darwin, Australia		Snail: Box 40146, Casuarina, NT 0811
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 03:01:16 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <56693@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.175413.4196@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

>>It still has a bloody long way to go before equalling the viciousness of
>>American race relations, which includes the total extermination of whole
>>Indian tribes, castration as a means of social control on slave plantations,
>>and the Civil War...

>This is clearly a result of the example set by the society that produced the
>ruling classes in America.

Yeeees...true enough. But that's not Jack's fault, you know. He posts from
Glasgow, and so he's probably a Scot, and not one of those oppressive
Englishmen. Why, only a few generations ago, his ancestors were dyeing
themselves blue and making human sacrifices. No wonder he has such empathy
with savages.

Oh yeah, the icon for the humor-impaired:  8^}

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: soc.history