HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: MCAT scores?
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1992 23:21:56 -0500

mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:

 >> Quoting from the Fidonet Mensa Echo's "Standard Electronic Blurb":
 [...]
 >> SEB>  MCAT or GMAT  	       	           overall 95%
 [...]

 m> Is anyone out there able to tell me how an MCAT score can be translated
 m> to "overall 95%" or overall any%?

 As the original poster, I feel responsible to tell you, but frankly I'm
 not familiar with that test, so I can't.  Oh well.  Anybody?

Xref: sparky rec.org.mensa:3151 alt.atheism:8461
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Brainwashing (was Re: IQ and religious belief)
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:38:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: goofy.23263
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <65225@apple.Apple.COM>, mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
> In article <22905@goofy.Apple.COM> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> >I personally believe that if someone has a clear idea, he or she is
> >able to present it clearly. Otherwise they are just trying to cover
> >any possible gaps in their though.
 
> I have had difficulties communicating with Jarek, but
> I think this last comment is probably going too far.
> As a counterexample, I have a very clear idea of what my
> first priority is in choosing what to do with my time,
> but I have found no way of clearly expressing it.
> There just don't seem to be words.

It is true that some concepts can't be fully described with words
or sentences. But one should at least try to re-create the concept
using carefully selected statements. I do know that English is not
my first language, and sometimes my expressions tend to be twisted.
However if I try to communicate about very abstract definitions, 
short, concise and closed statements are far better than very
open-ended and non-describing ones.


Yes, it's very hard to master this. However, it is the attempt that 
counts. I respect Jarek's opinions, but it's really hard to follow
his thought patterns.

Cheers,
Kent
From: mcbeanb@brandonu.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: intelligence bashing
Date: 3 Apr 92 16:00:48 GMT
 <1992Apr1.045125.2539@gorgon.uucp> <gdqYHKS00WBK87n7Zw@andrew.cmu.edu>
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

In article <gdqYHKS00WBK87n7Zw@andrew.cmu.edu>, 
dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes: 
> I was very low on the social totem pole in elementary school.  Fortunately,
> several people at the top liked me, so the word was put out not to bother me.
> If not for that, I do believe that I would have received a lot more flak and
> trouble than I did receive (more-or-less none).
> 
> The two times someone ignored the message and tried to pick on me, I ended up
> beating the shit out of one and threatening to in the other case.  While I
> hate to admit it, at that stage might did make right.

I disagree.  While I had my share of run-ins with bullies, I never (ever)
had to resort to any sort of physical prowess to save my skin, and I'm not
saying that I had to be very intelligent to do so.  There are other ways
than hitting those who make your life Hell.  Even in cases similiar to
the one described above.
 
> David Hunt 

McBeanB@BrandonU.Ca
From: jess%miracle@merk.com (Shi'nayne)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/T/ 'Herr Goebbels'
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:20:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.94eTiB3w164w
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:

> > Ah! but you clearly assiciate with the alleged Nazi (you have the same
> > opinions).  If we are discriminatory, then we can also practice guilt
> > by association.  You Nzai bastard Tai!
> 
> Should've known... more flames from Camp Phil Hill!
> 
> When you have something constructive to say, say it.  Until then,
> get out of here.  You're wasting everyone's time!
> 
> ---------
> Scott Tai

And just what do you think *you* are doing???  I would have to say you
are wasting even more bandwidth by posting this stuff in the first place.


Vampire Hunters Inc.
jess%miracle@merk.com
If you have vampire problems, call!!  We'll
stake your problem right through the heart!!
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Subject: /T/T/ Harsh Language in Recent Post
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 23:23:37 GMT

Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:

 MS> [tons of expletives deleted]

> Mikey, Mikey, Mikey, whaddawe gonna do wit' you?  B-)  This is exactly
> the sort of response that twits like Tai hope to provoke...

This is the sort of response I am most definitely NOT trying to provoke...

---------
Scott Tai
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Fermat's flunkeys (was Re: A Real Challenge)
Date: 12 Apr 92 06:31:23 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Stephen Kurtzman writes about "Re: Fermat's flunkeys (was Re: A Real Challenge)"
to All  [11 Apr 92 21:22]

SK> In article <2168.29E58EEF@kennel.FIDONET.ORG>
SK> Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner) writes: 

>I still can't understand how they can
>have an 11th-grade reading requirement to get a 14th-grade diploma.  But, then
>again, I can't understand how someone who can read only at the second-grade
>level can get a HS diploma.

SK>  In the early seventies, Jerry Brown created an uproar in California 
SK> by pushing for standards which would require every student to 
SK> perform at an 8th-grade level in reading, writing, and arithmetic 
SK> before they could get their HS diploma. His critics seriously 
SK> argued that half the students awarded HS diplomas would have 
SK> to return them if the law were made retroactive.

I would have argued that Brown's standards were too lax.  However, in the early
1970s, I was not living in California.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Who's in charge here?
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:22:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: claris.14157
Distribution: na
Organization: Claris Corporation

In article <1992Apr7.223005.14397@cbnewse.cb.att.com>, gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
> 
> In article <14155@claris.com>, Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> > In article <1992Apr7.153927.28024@cbnewse.cb.att.com>, gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
> > > 
> > > In article <702648459.F00001@blkcat.UUCP>, Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
> > > > I wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >  DA> If memory serves, he is the moderator (not in the "censor" sense
> > > >  DA> of moderated newsgroups, but more like the "guy in charge")
> > > > 
> > > > phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) replies:
> > > > 
> > > >  PH> I am _NOT_ in charge here (I'll leave that job to Al Haig :->).
> > > >  PH> Nor is Ed Bertch, nor is ANYONE.
> > > > 
> > > > Then is there nobody "empowered" to speak on behalf of the newsgroup itself?
> > > 
> > > That would be me, my son!  What is it that you wish to know that the
> > > most intelligent person on this newsgroup may bestow His knowledge
> > > upon thee?
> > 
> > How do you know that you're the most intelligent person on this newsgroup?
> > Did you compare IQs with everyone else here?  Even if you were the most
> > intelligent person on the newsgroup, how does that empower you to speak on
> > behalf of the newsgroup itself?
> > 
> > Enquiring minds want to know.
> 
> Well, if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you.

Well, if that's the way you're going to be about it.....
 
> > 
> > (this message is smiley-captioned for the humor impaired--all others
> > will smile even without the caption.) :-)
> 
> Better check.

I did.  The humor non-impaired smiled before reaching the smiley.  The humor
impaired didn't smile before reaching the smiley; most of them didn't smile
even when they saw the caveat and the smiley.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tordm@vana (Tord Malmgren)
Subject: about "RE" in replies...
Reply-To: tordm@vana
Organization: Dept. of Physics, University of Stockholm -- Sweden
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:39:23 GMT


 could everybody replying to a posting PLEASE put a "RE:" in the
subject line?! my kill file won't kill all stupid non-creative
replies otherwise... especially from fidonet, my god...




---------------+--------------------------------
 Tord Malmgren | Internet: tordm@vand.physto.se | These opinions are my own,
               | BITnet  : TORDM@SESUF51.BITNET | and NOT of this department!
---------------+--------------------------------
 Department of Physics, University of Stockholm
From: jc@sppip7.lkg.dec.com (John Chambers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: decimal prefix
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:24:17 GMT
Reply-To: jc@sppip7.lkg.dec.com (John Chambers)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

|> lipscomb@lonestar.utsa.edu (David S. Lipscomb) writes:

|> 
|>  DSL> I am a lowly student who is trying to write a story.  The problem is
|>  DSL> that an important part of this story is incomplete.  
|>  DSL> The incomplete part is
|>  DSL> I need to know the decimal prefixes for ten from the powers 1 to 21.
|> 
|>  If I understand correctly what you mean by "decimal prefix", this is
|>  not standardized internationally.  I *think* the US and UK systems go:
|> 
|>  Power  USA name        UK name
|>  -----  --------        -------
|>   3     thousand        thousand
|>   6     million         million
|>   9     billion         thousand million
...

Jeez, what nonsense!  And on a computer BB, too.  I probably won't be 
anywhere near the only one today posting the following table:

 Power  SI prefix
 -----  ---------
   1    deka-
   2    hecto-
   3    kilo-
   4    myria-
   6    mega-
   9    giga-
  12    tera-

That's all I remember off the top of my head.  The final vowels are of
course  dropped  if  the unit starts with a vowel, as in "hectare" and
"kilohm".  Presumably others will fill in the table.

"Not standardized", indeed!
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Issac Asimov
Date: 11 Apr 92 00:29:08 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Terence M. Kelleher writes about "Re: Issac Asimov" to All  [10 Apr 92 08:48]

> Other notable Mensans include the Late Buckminster Fuller (honorary 
> International President), Sir Clive Sinclair (Sinclair Computers), 
> Don  Pedersen (former president of Ford Motor Company), F. Lee 
> Bailey, Theodore  Bikel, Adrian Kronaur (SP?) (_Good Morning, 
> Vietnam!_), and Jean Auel. 

TMK> Also, the late Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.

I had heard that she was a member, but I didn't know for sure.  Thanks for the
information.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: (T) INTELLIGENCE DEBATE:  HEREDITY OR ENVIRONMENT?
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 06:17:29 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.035823.11894@ncsu.edu>
 tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>-------------------------
>INTELLIGENCE AND HEREDITY
>-------------------------

>You want facts?  You've got 'em! :)

Not all of them.  Author, title, source, for instance.   Please?

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller)
Subject: Re: /T/ Harsh Language in Recent Post
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 16:46:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1992Apr5.211701.12741@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) writes:
>
>>tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>>>dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes:
>>>
>>>In all seriousness, this makes me sicker than anything I've ever seen here.
>>>This is simply uncalled for!  I realize that not everyone has the same
>>>religious preferences.  However, please respect others and watch the
>>>language in future posts.
>
>>It does NOT make you that sick!
>
>It does.
>

Does not!!

Hey, you can speak for all of Mensa, so I guess I can speak for you.
I know you won't mind.
From: Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: What about ACT and GRE scores?
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:46:23 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.173642.17310@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, bkwg0457@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Whitlock) writes:
> 
> Ok, I read that SAT scores can be used to satisfy the entrance requirement
> for Mensa.  What about ACT and GRE scores?  Are either one of these
> acceptable for admission?

GRE of 1250 or greater.
ACT of 29 or greater, but only if taken before 1992.
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/ MENSA Groups Nonexistent in this Area
Date: 7 Apr 92 01:58:29 GMT
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University

>Okay, I tried just that.  The Raleigh phone book contained no listing of any
>MENSA group.  Hard to believe, considering it is home to the largest
>university in North Carolina and South Carolina!  Let me know how where the
>closest MENSA group is.  (Chapel Hill or Durham, perhaps?)
>---------
>Scott Tai

You're partly right.. you can't finding Mensa through the phone book. There IS,
however, an active local group comprising folk at Durham, Chapel Hill,
Raleigh, and Fayetteville.. I'll send you email about this, if you like. 
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Subject: Re: Who's in charge here?
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 07:47:15 GMT

phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) writes:
>Oh most knowelegable, intelligent, wise, powerful, and great person.  Will
>thou please bestow your knowledge up on us?  How does one go about sending
>small NUKES through the net.  I have a need to know.  :-)

Wait! Why use the net at all?  Note my STRATEGIC location? 
For the right price, you'll get 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

            GUARANTEED HAND DELIVERY OF YOUR NUKE !

------------------------------------------------------------------------
just for that very special person..

'Course, it won't be MY hand.. I'll subcontract ;-)


P.S. Buy two, get a third FREE!
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Scott just showed his true colors
Date: 6 Apr 92 10:04:51 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


David O Hunt writes about "Scott just showed his true colors" to All  [05 Apr
92 23:56]

>You're wrong.  Test scores are generally lower for some groups of minorities
>because of differences in socioeconomic status and hereditary factors.
>                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Scott Tai
DOH>  Scott just out and out said HEREDITARY FACTORS. I.E. genes. 
DOH> I.E. RACE! He just said, in effect, that one of the reasons that 
DOH> minorities don't do well is because of their RACE. 
DOH> Socio-economic reasons I'll buy - heck, I've been arguing that 
DOH> that IS one of the reasons. But I've never said anything about 
DOH> race per se being a factor, nor have any other Mensans. Scott 
DOH> just did. 
DOH> Is that a swastika I see hidden there? 

Nope; just a white sheet with eyeholes cut out.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Rebuttal
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:10:52 GMT
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University

alopez-o@neumann.waterloo.edu (Alex Lopez-Ortiz) suggests:
>
>How about writting an extensive reply arguing why mensa does not discriminate 
>by excluding 98% of the population? 
>
>I'm certain it will stop any more bozos for a while.
>
>-To start with it may give a solid reply to many concerns.and it will keep 
>them busy while they read it :-) :-)
>
>This reply could latter be included in the FAQ list (which, btw I haven't
>seen in a while).
>
>Here is  an outline
[deleted]

Don't you think it's been done before? Rebuttals (along the lines of 
*everything* you've mentioned) have been posted ever since the group began;
and these have been clear, comprehensive, & unequivocal arguments. Do
you think 
it's made one bit of a difference? Either these replies are transparent
to those 
phobes out there, or they actually do qualify for Densa. It's *not*
possible 
to reason with people who aren't listening.

In any case, I certainly wouldn't include a rebuttal in the FAQ list. It would 
appear to be the act of a guilty conscience, when there's nothing to
feel guilty
about.  We do *not* have to justify our existence to anyone, much less
defend 
the norms of an illustrious society as ours from the pathetic attacks of
those
parrots out there.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: radcliff@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David G Radcliffe)
Subject: Re: MCAT scores?
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:54:33 GMT

mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:
 
: Just an off-shoot of this:  Why is a test such as the MCAT considered
: to be applicable to Mensa?  Any idiot savante (or anyone who could read
: even) could study their butts off for the MCAT and do quite well.
: It only tests knowledge in Chemistry, Physics, and Biology.  The
: Reading Comprehension part is a snap if you read efficiently, and the
: written portion is so subjective that I can't see it being integrated
: very easily into an overall score anyway.  Mensa is the organization for
: high IQ, but MCAT has nothing to do with IQ.  It's more a test of education
: and the ability to utilize that education.

I would think that you could study for an IQ test and significantly
raise your score.  Like anything else, IQ scores should improve
with practice.  As a wild guess, I would think that improvements
of 30 points should be possible with sufficient training and practice.

But this is just speculation.  Is there anybody out there who has
studied for an IQ test, who can report on the results?  Also, can
anybody give references for research into this question?  

My feeling is that IQ tests, SAT's, etc. test irrelevant skills.
For evidence of this, I need only point to Marilyn Vos "Idiot"
Savant's column.  Does anybody seriously believe that she is the 
smartest person in America?


-- 
David Radcliffe                                
INTERNET: radcliff@csd4.csd.uwm.edu            
BITNET:   radcliff%csd4.csd.uwm.edu@interbit
From: niccum@cs.umn.edu (Thomas M. Niccum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Swearing in
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:45:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Apr8.164551.5473
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.

In <2100.29E29C55@kennel.FIDONET.ORG> Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner) writes:


>David O Hunt writes about "Swearing in" to All  [07 Apr 92 14:39]

>>DOH>  Actually, I had to take say that when I worked for the U.S.
>>DOH> Army.
>>
>>No, you didn't, David.  You always had the option of "affirming" rather than
>>"swearing," and if you affirmed instead of swore, you didn't have to say "so
>>help me God."   Even the president doesn't have to swear, but can affirm, when
>>he assumes office.
>>
>>Mike Steiner

>DOH> Actually, the person who swore me in didn't mention this option... 

>In that case, the person who swore you in did not do his/her job properly.

>Of course, the alternative to affirm was incorporated for the benefit of those
>religious people who believed that swearing was taking the name of the Lord
>in vain, but that doesn't prevent one who doesn't believe in God from affirming
>instead of swearing (assuming, of course, that s/he knows of the option).

I believe this is not quite right.  The "swearing" has nothing to do
with taking anything in vain.  I think that the problem for some groups
(Quakers jump to mind, but I may be off) is that by "swearing" to do
something you are predicting the future, which only god could know.  So
you are presuming to know better than god, a sin in some religions.

The affirmation is more like, "I'll try to do my best, but who knows
what will happen..."

> 
>/207 143/207
>--  
>Mike Steiner
>UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
>INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
>"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas M. Niccum  | Army High Performance Computing Research Center
niccum@cs.umn.edu | University of Minnesota
612-626-8084	  | 
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Subject: /T/ Scott just showed his true colors
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:43:43 GMT

dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes:

>>You're wrong.  Test scores are generally lower for some groups of minorities
>>because of differences in socioeconomic status and hereditary factors.
>>                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Scott just out and out said HEREDITARY FACTORS.  I.E. genes.  I.E. RACE!
> He just said, in effect, that one of the reasons that minorities don't
> do well is because of their RACE.

Once again my words have been taken out of context.  As I have maintained
all along:

[...] Studies have shown that intelligence is based primarily on hereditary
and genetic factors.  To have a group solely for people with a certain IQ
or test score is nothing less than blatant discrimination [...]

Where did I mention race in the above article? 

Answer:  Nowhere did I mention race; YOU DID!

Your true colors show through.

---------
Scott Tai
Xref: sparky rec.org.mensa:3172 alt.atheism:8514
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Brainwashing (was Re: IQ and religious belief)
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:38:44 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <1992Apr13.142958.12394@apollo.hp.com>, perry@apollo.hp.com (Jim
Perry) writes:
> I don't agree here, though.  Trying to express how one's subjective
> mind works to another who may work differently seems to be fraught
> with unclarity, to say the least.  I can only go so far in
> understanding my own thoughts and motivations, and don't pretend to a
> "clear idea" of how my own mind works, let alone the ability to
> present it clearly or persuasively to others.  I don't think that
> attributing that inability to dishonesty or foolishness is
> appropriate, even though that is a natural reaction.  If I were to add
> to your list of Jarek-isms I would include the tendency to claim
> "victory" when an argument collapses into confusion; I suspect this is
> the same thing.

Sorry, I now changed my opinion, it is true that expressions of
personal ideas are based on cultural, social, educational and many
other parameters. There's no way to objectively define what is 
an illuminated definition or not. I'm certainly no master of this.

However sometimes a known trick - when in doubt - is to deliberately
move the conversation to a very 'muddy' area, where both opponents
slowly sink into the quicksand, attaining no end results.

Cheers,
Kent
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa