HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kanamori@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Atsushi Kanamori)
Subject: Re: Lynch's Spoiler Review: "The First Duty"
Keywords: TNG, Wesley, Academy
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 23:48:04 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.230942.2304@cco.caltech.edu> tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>kanamori@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Atsushi Kanamori) writes:
>
>>>>And would you have severed all relations to
>>>>your *son*, if he had done the same?  Remember, that is the relationship 
>>>>they have.
>>>
>>>No...I remember that that's the relationship YOU claim they have.  Saying 
>>>someone is *like* a son is far from saying "this is my son".  
>
>>Uh, you said yourself "Wes, and his two surrogate fathers (Locarno and 
>>Picard)." I think "*like* a son" and "is a son" are, for all practical 
>>purposes, equivalent. Unless you're thinking of some fundamental difference 
>>other than the biological one, the analogy sounds quite apt.
>
>The difference in this case would probably have to be length of time in which
>I'd known the "son" in question.  Picard's known Wes for about four years,
>Locarno for a year and change.  And while extremely strong bonds can form
>in those times (esp. the former), I'd be hard-pressed to compare them with
>someone I *literally* helped raise to Wes's age.  

Okay. That I can buy. 

Personally, I think 4 years is long enough to make the bonds work -- at least
well enough to convince me as a viewer that Picard *could* eventually
forgive a betrayal like that (at least if Wes pulled some of the weight
in his subsequent actions.) Hell, the fact that the P/W confrontation 
worked as well as it did for me (i.e. one hasn't yet *seen* much of the P/W 
relationship) has to mean something.) The exact line will depend on
the person's own values and priorities, so it's probably an unresolvable
dispute.


>To answer your question, Jose, I don't know.  Probably not; but I don't
>believe the analogy is apt.

That's pretty much it. I think the analogy is apt, but I don't really know.


. .        .       .                .        
: : : :. : :  :....: : .  ::.: .  ..: :    ..     : :    .
::::::::::.: :::::::.:::::::::::.:::::: :?.:::::..::::.:.:
------------ -------------------------- --------------------------
TNG Lifelines: From "Yesterday's Enterprise" To "Cause & Effect" --
  "Captain, we are getting unusual readings 20,000 km off the
   starboard bow." -- Worf, Worf, Worf and Ensign Ro.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: jamesb@nevada.edu (James Bender)
Subject: Re: Upcoming Episode News/Spoilers  ST:TNG and ST:DSN
Organization: University of Nevada System Computing Services
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:07:42 GMT


>
>Maybe Alexander could be sold to the Romulans as a sex toy...
>
	Now,now. They can't show that on TV, though it would entice me to spend
$6.00 to see a TNG movie :).
From: porges@beretta.camb.inmet.com (Don Porges)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: (Spoilers First Duty)
Date: 15 Apr 92 21:37:58 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Intermetrics Inc.


You what I would have liked?   If the business about Josh being at fault were not
the lie, told 20 minutes into the show, but the truth, told 50 minutes in.
Then the motivations are different, and harder to judge:  the squad
is lying to protect the memory of their dead friend, and the feelings of his
family.  And then The First Duty, to the truth, is a sad duty rather than a
righteous duty.

Sure, it's a total rewrite, but when did that ever stop anyone?
-- 
					-- Don Porges
					porges@inmet.camb.inmet.com
					..uunet!inmet!porges
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: jamesb@nevada.edu (James Bender)
Subject: Re: Last act = let's start wrapping this up!
Organization: University of Nevada System Computing Services
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:01:31 GMT

>
>One can lose track of commercial breaks, but with the real-time counter the
>"schedule" to which the scripts are written is painfully obvious.  e.g., when
>the 0:40:00 mark goes by, you just KNOW that someone's gonna propose the
>solution within a minute of coming back from the commercial break, and they'll
>spend the rest of the last segment of the show implementing it... and, worse,
>there won't be any major setbacks. 
>
>I'd love to see them do a script where this is turned around:  Finish with
>problem development by the end of Act I, and spend the rest of the show on a
>solution.  
>
>Come to think of it, they did something like this in "Power Play", and I
>thought it worked well.  There was still some of the "nothing we try works
>right until the last act" syndrome, though. 

	Your assuming that the story is being shown in "realtime", where one
minute that your sitting on the couch equals one minute in the story. The
actual story your watching could have taken place over days, but your just 
seeing like a highlight film. I understand what your saying, but with a 
one hour format, there are certin things that you just can't avoid.

>
>It might be more interesting if the problem necessitates a complex solution,
>with lots of people working on different things... and you don't see how all
>the threads are going to come together until the very end... and they have a
>few unexpected setbacks along the way.  Sort of like a "Mission: Impossible"
>story.  (first incarnation of MI, not that awful Australian import!)  

	I agree with you there. Most of the solutions to these horrific 
problems are just too simple. That make them a little unbielevable.(i.e. all
they had to do was that!?  Come on!!)
From: pat@berry.Cary.NC.US (Pat Berry)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Lacarno = Kirk (Spoilers "1st Duty)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 22:27:14 EDT
Organization: Berry Communications

apearlma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Pearlman) writes:

> His reprogramming violates the honor code, is breaking and entering,
> probably destruction of school property.  I find Kirk's action rather
> petty actually.  At least Locarno's action showed he was trying to be
> one of the best pilots ever.

You have an odd concept of what makes a good pilot.  Good pilots don't
take needless risks, or bully others into doing the same.  They don't
get their teammates killed just to inflate their own egos.  The next
time you board an airliner, do you want a reckless hotdog like Locarno
at the controls?

> Then explain why Picard says he would become a legend had he pulled it off
> in front of the assembled audiences for commencement.

Picard didn't say that.  He said that Locarno wanted to go out in a
blaze of glory.  Well, he very nearly went out in a blaze of drive
plasma.


Pat Berry                    pat@berry.Cary.NC.US
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Lacarno-expected to succeed-
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 8 Apr 92 18:15:24 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.012205.18929@acsu.buffalo.edu> v128nkej@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Boggles the MIND) writes:

>	I' mnot arguing that what he did was right- but that he did
>what HE thought was right- and he stuck by it- for that he earns some
>of my belated respect.
>
>			Jim
>

Hope I got the attribution right.  ANYway,

I don't think that someone simply doing what he thought was right is
anything all that special.  Rudolph Hess did the same thing, and used
the same excuse.  "I did what I believed in" could just as easily be
said by a demon as a saint.

Regards,
Janis C.
From: kuchar@buast7.bu.edu (Tom Kuchar)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Deep Space Nine Promo!
Date: 15 Apr 92 12:09:49 GMT
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <92105.164111IO10033@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO10033@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Jim Troutman) writes:
>
>-- The end of the tape shows a "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" logo, which
>is essentially the words typeset in a modified version of the Adobe
>typeface Revue, with both of the "a"s being replaced by
>Enterprise/Starfleet insignias.  It is not really that good looking.
>I hope it is just something someone threw together at the last minute,
>and not the permanent logo for the series.
>

At Creation's Con this past weekend in Boston, Richard Arnold was there
giving a preview of DS9. He has one slide: the series title logo. `Star
Trek' was in TNG font, slightly altered so as not to look so clean. DS9
was in a different font altogether.  The whole slide tried to look somewhat
eerie.  I was unimpressed.


-- 
Tom Kuchar			  | `Belay that nose-picking, Cadet Stimpy!'
kuchar@buast7.bu.edu		  |       - Cmdr. Hoek
Department of Astronomy		  |  
Boston Univerity		  |     `Oh Joy of joys!' - SJC
From: maj1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Mark "Beren" Jamison)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Locarno = Kirk (Spoilers "First Duty"))
Date: 14 Apr 92 11:48:55 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University

tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:

>kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:
>>ccmk@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes:
>> > The emphasis is on the refusal to give in no matter the odds.

>>tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>> > That's not an "I will not fail".  That's an "I will not give up"; and I 
>> > find that an admirable quality most of the time.  The "I will not fail"
>> > is adolescent arrogance at its worst.

>>OK, assuming for a moment that you're right: give us an example
>>of Kirk taking on something that's way over his head, ignoring
>>all warnings, and just foolishly bulling ahead.

>Refusing to do a thing about Gary Mitchell until it was damn near too late
>in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?  Letting Khan get in close enough to 
>cripple the Enterprise in ST2?

Where do these signify the "I will not fail" mentality?? Gary Mitchell
was Kirk's best friend before the incident that's a "He's my friend I
don't want to hurt him" mentality not the one you constantly suggest, besides
Kirk did listen to Spock and took his advice..

As far as Kahn was concerned?? Where is he ignoring all warnings??

This is something I really don't understand in most Kirk Bashers (tm),
they refuse to take as cannon TOS, which in several episodes describe Kirk
as a Stick in the mud during his academy days.. If anything, based on 
what we have learned from the shows, and ignoring neat plot devices thrown
into a Movie, Locarno = Picard.. Even if we accept STII as cannon we have 
one instance of Kirk doing something in his academy days that only remotely
is similar to Locarno, Picard however has a very vague, but distinctively
rawdy and bawdy description of his days at the Academy.. 

>I'm sure there are others, but I'm not as up on my TOS episodes as most, so
>I'll leave it to them.

>Tim Lynch
--
______________________________________________________________________________
                       Still looking for Luthien
maj1@ra.msstate.edu                                  maj1@beren.b17a.ingr.com
______________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: spinoza@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Prince Lev of the Domovoi)
Subject: die wesley and alexander, jusrt not on Sesame Street
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 04:09:45 GMT

In article <92105.103353AUJDW@ASUACAD.BITNET> <AUJDW@ASUACAD.BITNET>  
writes:
> I think that Wesley and Alexander should be both ejected into
> space
> 
> I can't stand either of them, and I really wonder why the producers of
> TNG keep putting in these little snobby brats who think they can act.
> 
> Wil Wheaton and who ever the hell plays Alexander belong on sesame
> street, and not on my favorite TV show, except mod
> MOnday night football, which I should then tape the show. . .
> 
Sesame Street?!? No way! Send 'em to "Just the Tenof US" or "My Two Dads,  
or Something"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current,rec.arts.startrek.misc
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru (was Re: Locarno = Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 23:10:12 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Maryland, College Park
Originator: clin@coke.eng.umd.edu


In article <1992Apr10.220848.29790@cco.caltech.edu>, tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>Followups set to r.a.s.misc.

>
>>The episode that shows that Kirk had trouble accepting defeat or more
>>precisely, he thought of defeat as failure was 'Obsession' but at the end
>>of that episode he had learned to accept the fact that there are instances
>>where nothing you can do will make things work out.
>
>It's been a long, long time since I saw "Obsession", so I'll have to back
>away from that; but again, I would show that Kirk's bulling right on in to
>the next situation with his "la-de-dah, I know I can't die" attitude later
>on in the series shows that as far as we can tell, he accepted nothing.
>

   If I recall Obsession had Kirk remembering when he was much younger and
this gaseous thing had killed off a bunch of people and Kirk had frozen
instead of firing his phaser.   When this incident repeated itself with
some red shirt and this guy froze instead of firing (causing two other
members to die), Kirk started going after this person and eventually
had him confined to quarters.  McCoy kept saying that Kirk was living
his obsession through this red shirt and seeing in this person the
same mistake Kirk made.  He was punishing this person as he felt he
should have been punished.

   Of course, later on, when they do fire phasers at the thing and it doesn't
die, then McCoy finally gets his point through, that had Kirk (or the red shirt)
not hesistated nothing would have changed.

   Of course, while Kirk does forgive the person for doing so, they later
beam down on the planet.  The thing saps the blood out of some vessel
before they can get to set off the anti-matter charge, and Kirk stays
behind to lure the gas thing before he is beamed up at the last second,
and boom the creature gets blown away.

   So to some extent, he did avoid this no-win situation.  He kept this
guilt for the umpteen years and blamed himself and then blamed
the red shirt as well.  The only reason he was able to get over this
obsessive behavior was that it really wasn't his fault, so he was
let off the hook.  Actually, the episode is probably a good example of
this never-say-die attitude having negative effects on Kirk.

--
   ______    __    __   ___  ____
  / ____ \  |  |  |__| |   \ |  |    Charles Lin
 | /    \_| |  |   __  |    \|  |    e-mail: clin@eng.umd.edu
 | |        |  |  |  | |  |\    |   
 | |     _  |  |  |__| |__| \___|    University of Maryland
 | \____/ | |  |____                 "I hate big sigs." -- Moo
  \______/  \_______|
From: v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart article
Date: 7 Apr 92 23:12:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <92098.084059U27468@uicvm.uic.edu>, U27468@uicvm.uic.edu (Nancy Bulinski) writes...
>In article <rccarm00.702610742@mik.uky.edu>, rccarm00@mik.uky.edu (ron c carman)
>says:

>>   "Retire?" I asked.  "Well," he said, "my contract is up in 1993, and
>>I'm planning to do classical theater, 'Lear' and 'Macbeth'.  I'm the
>>right age now to play the heavies."  Does that mean au revoir to the
>>Enterprise?  "I'd be balmy to do that," he said.  "But if we do a sixth
>>season, we might work something out."
>>
>>          [If contracts expire in '93, that pretty much]
>>          [shoots down the rumors of a seventh season. ]
>>

     The contracts expire at the end of the sixth season.  Stewart, and
     the rest of the cast, would be ill-advised not to bring an
     "I don't want to continue with this" to new contract negotiations.
     Financially, that puts them in the power-position.

     And anyway, seventh season is not a rumor.  Berman has said that
     he wants to go ahead and do one, and Paramount supports him in
     this (if only to lend a brilliant lead-in for ratings to DS9
     and The New Untouchables, which will be only in their first
     seasons at the time.


          ^Hot Damn, That Pie Was Good!^
                     Common Phrases Heard at
                     RR Diner #32.

          ^Scott Gorcey, v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu^
From: runyan@cup.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Perhaps Picard didn't need to speak
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:03:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: cupnews0.1992Apr8.170336.3761
Organization: HP, Cupertino, CA, USA

Spoilers for "The First Duty"

It seems that some people are of the opinion that if Wes hadn't spoken
up, Picard would have told the Admiral.  I suggest that the actions of
those sitting on the Board of Inquiry and the closing speech of the
admiral's indicates that the Board already had reached the same 
conclusion as Picard.  IMHO, the board was going to close allowing the
team to `get away with' the lie and then work to wash the entire team
out of the academy.  The admiral's final speech carried the implication
that she knew that the team had lied, but couldn't prove it due to
missing information regarding the final crash.  I doubt seriously that
the Board couldn't have guessed what led to the final crash, since the
had access to the same information that Picard did, and had access sooner.
I'd say that the satellite picture would have revealed all the data that
the head of Starfleet Academy would have needed to recognize what
maneuver was being tried.

Picard was not making a move to say anything as the trial was being closed.
Perhaps he realized that the board knew what he knew, and figured it out
from the final speech.  Perhaps he thought it best to approach the
admiral in private and discuss it rather than bring it up in public.  For
myself, I'm going to believe that the reactions of the board make a great
deal more sense if they already knew what caused the crash and merely wanted
the team to confirm it and explain their actions.

Mark Runyan
From: cglover@lonestar.utsa.edu (Calvin G. Glover)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Locarno = Kirk (Spoilers "First Duty"))
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:13:53 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio

In article <1992Apr8.134812.2802@acsu.buffalo.edu> v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey) writes:
>
>Today, Boys and Girls, Ben and Myself and Several Significant Others Are
>Talking About Who Is And Who Is Not Allowed To Disobey Regulations:
>
>
>
>>>     Why is Kirk allowed the breadth of discretion to ^think^ and ^plan^
>>>     when he is going to follow Starfleet orders and Federation subpoenas
>>>     and Locarno is not?
>>
    hey folks, i love star trek as much as the next nerd (or closet nerd
    as the case may be) and sometimes i too identify too closely with the
    stories and characters and what not.  but this locarno/kirk thing is
    starting to annoy me.

    coming from a literary background, i will tell you my opinion on why
    kirk can get away with stuff that locarno couldn't.

    kirk is a character in a story.  a great story, but a story none the
    less.  the kobyashi marue (?) incident was an anecdote used to give
    kirk a sense of background and to help define his present character to
    help define a plot.

    so why did kirk get away with it?  to help define him as a freewheeling,
    risk-taking kind of guy.  we already knew he was, but here was another
    demonstration of it.  it also helped define the diff. between himself
    and the frustrated little vulcan girl, which provided some humor and
    some good natured vulcan-bashing.

    locarno got nailed because they needed somebody to get nailed.  they
    needed that type of character.  if they were inconsistent in the treatment
    it was because the plot called for that inconsistency.

    besides, who did this little punk think he was, james t. kirk? ;-)

    well, that's my humble opinion.

    --calvin--

-- 
    *  "i should not talk so much about myself if there were anybody else  *
    *   whom i knew as well.  Unfortunately, i am confined to this theme   *
    *   by the narrowness of my experience"  -- henry david thoreau        *
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: jkramer@sunwise.UWaterloo.ca (Viscous Pig Dog)
Subject: Re: (Spoilers First Duty)
Keywords: a e i o and u
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 14:02:41 GMT


Not really spoilers anymore but :


In article <1992Apr10.045631.8850@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> hucke@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Matt Hucke) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.210111.17437@watserv1.waterloo.edu> jkramer@sunwise.UWaterloo.ca (Viscous Pig Dog) writes:
>>
>> [stuff that PROVES quite eloquently that Kirk was no Locerno (sp?) ]
>
>Additional support for this is provided by Gary Mitchell calling him 
>"A stack of books with legs."  (book should probably read "disk", as 
>COURT MARTIAL demonstrates that paper books are rare.)
>
>I don't think Jim was as much of a "geek" as Weasley, though.  During TOS,
>he was very physical, and most likely was like that during his Academy 
>time.  And, unlike Crusher, he has a very strong personality.  He has also
>shown a disregard for orders in the movies.  (I don't refer to his theft
>of the E, but rather the endings of TMP and TUC, where he ignore orders
>to return to base.)  Something like attempting an illegal maneuver would
>be very much in character for JTK.
>

Yep. I agree geek isn't quite the right term for Kirk. I couldn't think of
a more appropriate one. 

I also agree that Kirk will break orders but I haven't seen him do it
for personal glory like what's his face did. I also think
that Kirk wouldn't flout authority like Locerno; there
is actually evidence, 'The Search for Eden' that shows that Kirk
dislikes those who don't show the 'proper' respect for
authority.  (Now that I think of it the hippies in the Search for Eden
had the right name for Kirk, I just can't remember what it was.)

So I got to disagree, Kirk wouldn't think of pulling a stunt like Locerno.


Schlong,
Jeff Kramer.

-- 

"We're goin ta find out who the better man is, a chicken or a dog ...
 I tell ya boy, your mother's the better man" , Foghorn Leghorn.
                   "Education is a right", Phhhhhht.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: bcg42647@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Benjamin Canty Goff)
Subject: Re: Worf as a Fighter
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 23:20:46 GMT

v128r82w@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Ralph L d'Ambrosio) writes:


>A few minor *SPOILERS* in this post but nothing major.













>Some people have said that Worf is always geting his but kicked and he is 
>not that great of a fighter. However, this is somewhat of an exaggeration

>First of all

>      On those occasions where Worf has gotten beat up, the oppenent
>usally (sp?) has somekind of advantage. Therefore, it is not so much that
>Worf is a poor fighter, it juist that some of his oppenents posses to
>much strenght.

>and Second

>      Worf has kicked but on several occassions. He killed Duras. He 
>knocked out the mind rapiest in "Violations," and he beat up a Romulan in 
>"Redemtion." Therefore, it would seem that Worf is not that bad as a fighter.

I missed that one with the mind rapist, and I agree he kicked Duras's ass...
(which was most refreshing) but I think the show tends to show Worf getting
whupped just AS a demonstration of the alien-in-question's power.



By the way, I don't hate Weslipoo, especially now that he's left the show.
However, there is the question of the more than useless Counselor Breasts.
"I - I'm not sure...."
"I don't know, Captain."
"I sense hostility from Them." (as They open fire with everything They have)
"I - I'm still not sure, Captain."
"Oh Will, do you like my new low-cut very tight blue outfit?"

*sheesh*











Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current