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Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
From: J.M.Ross@man0507.wins.icl.co.uk (J.M.Ross)
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Subject: Football League Div Two Centenary
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:59:34 +0000







         The 1892-3 Football League season kicked off on 3rd September 
         1892, Division Two was introduced from this season. Results:
         
         Div 1
         Accrington          0  Sunderland            6
         Blackburn Rovers    4  Newton Heath          3
         Everton             2  Nottingham Forest     2
         Notts County        0  The Wednesday         1
         Preston North End   2  Bolton Wanderers      1
         Stoke               1  Derby County          3
         Wolverhampton Wand  1  Burnley               0
         
         Newton Heath (now Man Utd), Nottm Forest and The Wednesday (Sheff 
         Wed) were playing their first football league games.
         
         Div 2
         Ardwick             7  Bootle                0
         Burton Swifts       7  Crewe Alexandra       1
         Grimsby Town        2  Northwich Victoria    1
         Sheffield United    4  Lincoln City          2
         Small Heath         5  Burslem Port Vale     1
         Walsall Town Swifts 1  Darwen                2
         
         Ardwick are now Man City, Small Heath are now Birmingham City.
         All Second Div clubs were playing their first football league 
         games except for Darwen.
         
         +----------------------------------------------------------------+
         !  James M. Ross                           ! ICL Computers Ltd   !
         +------------------------------------------+ Wenlock Way         !
         !  Tel:   061 223 1301 x2661               ! West Gorton         !
         !  Email: j.m.ross@man0507.wins.icl.co.uk  ! MANCHESTER  M12 5DR !
         !  EXAC:  j.m.zzross@uk03                  ! UK                  !
         +----------------------------------------------------------------+
From: cbrasted@physics.adelaide.edu.au (Charles Brasted)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: QUESTION to all
Date: 1 Sep 92 07:01:46 GMT

t-frans@microsoft.com (Francis Stanisci) writes:

>He credits the French with the invention of soccer and the 
>establishments of it's rules.

>This is quite contrary to what I've read, and seen posted on this net as well.

Yes, variants on soccer have been played since the middle ages: records show
that it was banned in England because it stopped peasants from working.  It
has also been played in primitive times in most of Europe.  Anyone who can
credit a particular nation with the "invention" of the sport has probably got
some strange form of xenophobia.  As far as a professional league, and an
established set of rules for the game well there is little dispute who was the
first in that regard.  I will try and chase up my references on sport in the
middle ages and get the exact facts.

Cheers
Charles Brasted
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
From: gilford@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Gilford T. Hapanyengwi)
Subject: Africa Cup and World Cup Qualifiers(Africa Bracket)
Organization: Vanderbilt University School of Engineering, Nashville, TN, USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:31:40 GMT


Does anyone on netland have any information on recent games in any one
of these competions.  It seem people in Europe and Africa have better
access to this type of information so please help.  
	I saw a partial report on South-Africa and Malawi or Zambia in
the Africa Cup of Nations I think.

Ndiyoyo,
-- 
<><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<>>
Gilford T. Hapanyengwi       | LIFE IS NOT A BED OF ROSES  
(615) 322-3552               |-Nyasha Shasha
gilford@vuse.vanderbilt.edu  |
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
From: mikec@unixg.ubc.ca (Michael Cherkassoff)
Subject: Re: Eastern European Results
Keywords: help
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:07:40 GMT

Hi, guys.

As the one of the kindest souls over the net - Karel Stokkermans -
is complaining about the lack of time, I was just wondering if there is
another volunteer who can provide us with up-to-date information on
football in ex-USSR, especially Russian Championship and Cup.
Some of us (and me particularly) would greatly appreciate that, because
the net is THE ONLY source of information about it here in North
America.

Thanks,

Michael.

P.S. I'd like to thank Karel once again for the great job he's been
doing in the past.
From: mattb@ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: America(n) Rules 8-)
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:20:57 GMT
Reply-To: mattb@olympus.ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Organization: Cabletron Systems INc.

(Robert Moynihan) writes:
>Now, on with the thread...
>
>cbar26@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes:
>>Is America trying to destroy football at the grassroots level?  
>>Maybe I'm just being romantic.  Apologies in advance.
>
>Don't be shocked by the antics of the adults concocting these rule
>changes.  Adults are forever spoiling the fun of children playing
>games.  No organized youth team sport escapes their meddling.
>So far, they haven't mucked up association football very much yet, 
>but give 'em time...
>
>In my more cynical moments, I think the best way to ruin a kids game
>is to get grown-ups involved in "organizing" it.

Bob - don't forget that with soccer, many American kids know NO rules when
they start, except to kick the ball, which they do mostly by toeing it
NFL style.  Without some instruction, throw-ins would look like dodgeball
throws, kickoffs are NFL style boots, goalies make kick saves hockey style,
and defenders bodycheck the ball carrier. 

I see the layering of rules (more rules as kids move from U8 to Uwhatever)
as a way of getting the kids used to thinking about soccer without overload.
Maybe some of it is tinkering (retries on throw-ins is a crutch, for example,
that makes up for a lack of time to coach; two practice sessions before a
first game isn't enough for 6-7 year olds to learn throw-ins, given that they
are probably learning the rest of the game as well.  The typical American
family's commitment to soccer is less than half that of baseball (1 practice
1 game vs 2+ practices 2+ games per week), and asking more of them only makes
them quit.  Again, there are soccer committed families to whom this doesn't
apply.  But of 16 U8 teams of 12 kids in my town, these committed families
are a small percentage.

The kids who stick with it till high school and college, playing the "real"
game, will be the future builders of the sport in the US.  The rest, who
play a few years then quit, will at least not get in the way, and at best,
will encourage their kids to play, and appreciate the sport more and better
than did their parents.

Matt
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
From: J.M.Ross@man0507.wins.icl.co.uk (J.M.Ross)
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Subject: Alas Poor Dartford
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 11:51:08 +0000







         Dartford resigned yesterday from the Beazer Homes Southern League 
         following the collapse of negotiations with Welling Utd over 
         ground sharing. Dartford, who finished 6th last season,  were 
         formed in 1888 and have a long association with the Southern 
         League going back to 1896. They were champions on 4 occasions and
         played briefly in the Conference in the early 80s.
          
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
From: dglow@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Dave Low)
Subject: Re: New FIFA Goalkeeper Rule
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:34:02 GMT

>>I would say he was under pressure so a free kick was stupid in this case. A 
>>rule that is down to how a ref sees the game is no good in these days of such 
>>unfair refs.
Actually it is unfair Rules not Refs.. Refs only inforce the stupid rules

As for making it a directive, that would leave too much room for 
inconsistancies. What FIFA likes is consistancy. I hate when you see
one ref callthe game one way and another call the game completely
different. 
Also this was already a rule called unsportsmanlike conduct. Since it
is all in the decision of the referee he could consider passing the ball
back to the keeper as unsportsmanlike (just like last year`s time wasting rule)
I guess if you reallly wanted to read into it you could say that 
there has always been a rule but now it is defined.

						Dave Low
I am just thankful hat we don`t use the rules till next year in Canada
We can only hope that FIFA decides not to use them before they are 
imposed into the CSA rule books....
From: csp48@seq1.keele.ac.uk (J.W. Kirriemuir)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: FA Premier League Official's Uniforms
Date: 26 Aug 92 17:59:24 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

In article <1992Aug26.150232.17301@ccd.harris.com>, mwr@controls.ccd.harris.com (Mike Reeves) writes:
> 
> The officials at the game wore green jerseys and socks.  Since Leeds was
> white and Wimbledon was blue, I'd think that an alternate color for black
> was not needed.  Is green the normal uniform color for FA Premier League
> referees and linesmen?

The reason for this is simple. For years, various players and managers
have suggested that following certain incidents, certain referees have
the mental capacities of root and other vegetables. For example "That
was never a penalty; the ref's a cabbage".

In view of this, referees are kitted out to resemble the aforementioned
food products.

An alternative suggestion, lately disputed and rejected, was that due to
the back-pass law, the referees themselves requested a green kit to save
themselves embarrasment. This is useful in the situation where they have
awarded a free kick to a side, that scores through it, due to the new
law. The kit hides any signs of the referee losing bladder control in
fright when the offending defender and goalkeeper unsubtely suggest to
the referee how they will kick seven buckets of shit out of him once SKY
TV cut away from the game and to the adverts.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
From: moynihan_r@apollo.hp.com (Robert Moynihan)
Subject: Re: FIFA propoesed changes to (OCEANIA) Southern America
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:11:12 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Aug29.123547.17288@fuw.edu.pl> michals@fuw.edu.pl (Michal Szleper) writes:
>In article <7838@public.BTR.COM> Carlos Rimola-Sarti writes:
>>Michals, I am going to try to make this brief because we are begining to
>>go around in circles.
>
>Yes, let this be the final.  BTW, it is not polite to mispell 
>someone's name just to express your low consideration.
>

Oh, for heaven's sake Michal, get a clue, will you?  He made a spelling error.
He looked at the beginning of your address (michals@fuw.edu.pl) and simply
typed the part before the @ as your name.  More than likely an honest mistake.
Read the netiquette postings again.  It's considered rude to flame someone for
errors of spelling or typos.

As for your logic, speaking as an impartial third party, yours is sub-standard, 
as is your knowledge of statistics.  If Europe has 4 times the number of teams 
in the WC as South America, and if team strengths are fairly competitive, then
Europe, in the long run, will have 4 times the number of teams in the finals
as will South America.  In other words, in 3 WCs, out of the 12 teams that will
constitute the 3 "final fours", South America should have 2 or 3 places to
Europes 9 or 10.  This, of course, assumes that a sampling of 3 WCs can be 
statistically significant, and any competent statistician will tell you that 3
is too small a sampling of -anything- to be so.  How you can rationalize that 
three WC competitions with only 3 or 4 South American teams in each constitutes 
a representative sample worthy of statistical significance is beyond my 
comprehension.  It may be best if you go take a Probability and Statistics 
course.

If memory serves, your original statement related to Brasil and Argentina being
the only top-flight teams in South America.  Carlos used Copa America stats
-where all the South American teams play against each other- to prove that if
Brasil and Argentina are top-flight teams, then they have stiff competition
from other countries, and certainly these other teams must also qualify as
being strong sides as well.  Copa America competitions are certainly valid
measures of the relative strength of South American teams.  The fact that you 
"don't give a damn" about them changes that not a bit. 

===============================================================================
Bob Moynihan                                     Bush/Quayle `92: Just say noe.
moynihan_r@apollo.hp.com                         Go Ipswich Town!              
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
From: harin@iti.gov.sg (Harinderpal Singh)
Subject: World Cup Qualifiers
Reply-To: harin@iti.gov.sg
Organization: Information Technology Institute, National Computer Board, S'pore
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 06:01:17 GMT

Result from 30 Aug 92:

St Vincent  vs  Suriname	(2nd Leg)
     2              1

(1st Leg ended in 0-0. St Vincent advance to 2nd Round).

Second Round Groupings:

Group A					Group B
-------					-------
Mexico					Canada
Honduras				El Salvador
Costa Rica				Bermuda
Jamaica					St Vincent

...fixtures yet to be announced.


This week's World Cup Qualifiers.....

2 Sep	Europe Group 4		Czechoslovakia v Belgium
2 Sep	Europe Group 5		Iceland v Yugoslavia

4 Sep	Oceania	Group 1		Solomon Islands v Australia

That's all for now. Watch out for lots of matches on Sep 9...

Cheers,
	Harin
	~~~~~


I  P  S  W  I  C  H     T  O  W  N     F  O  O  T  B  A  L  L     C  L  U  B
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                         Harinderpal Singh Grewal
    Information Technology Institute, National Computer Board, Singapore
            harin@iti.gov.sg        or      harinder@itivax.bitnet
            Tel: (65) 772 0906              Fax: (65) 777 3043
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
From: cbas38@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Gerry Creature Call Up
Summary: Super Ally
Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:49:49 GMT


In a recent posting Dan wrote something like this:-

Ally McCoist is the most over-rated player in Scotland. Discuss ?
Here goes....


For someone who's been top scorer for Rangers for the past 10 seasons,
winner of the Golden Boot, just notched up his 250th goal for the Bears,
top scorer for the club since the war and generally a nice guy, I think
your conclusion looks a wee bit daft. Perhaps these remarks have
been made in the wake t hat Gerry Creaney is not in the Scotland squad ?
Creaney's time will come and even he admits to RC that he's got a lot
to learn. Or perhaps it's because SAlly never scored in Sweden ? Well
meither did most of the top strikers. He scored a few goals to
get us to Sweden and he contributed as much if not more than anyone
else. The finger should be pointed  at the likes of Durie, Gallagher,
McClair, Fleck who have got maybe 2 or 3 goals between . Or perhaps
it could be becasue he consistently scores against Celtic season after
season ? Most Celtic supporters would like to  see him in the hoops. Am I
right ? I wouldnt !

  He may look a bit daft at times missing easy chances but not
half as daft as Tony Cascarino who never even got a sniff of the
ball whilst earning his wages up here. Over-rated players ?? How
about the 3 million pound tag placed on Duncan Ferguson's  head ?
He's a good player alright but last season was only his first
full season so perhaps people should be a bit more realistic
about him and let him develop to his full potential. After
watching Duncan Sheep Shearer last Sturday I think we have
a case for being over-rated.

So how about a sensible discussion abut SAlly ? What about the best
goals he's scored. The one against Aberdeen in December 1990 at Ibrox
(the first one) was probably hids best ever when with his back to goal
at the corner of the penalty area he turned to volley past Snelders.
Ot the one against Motherwell the previuos season at Ibrox (both
games at Ibrox come to think about). There's a few others as well but
these ones stick out the most. Over rated ? Tell me who's better
at putting the ball in the back of the net.
Sorry about the poor spelling but this is t this a long distance call..

SJ will be back next week to sort you's out. I'm sure he'll have
plenty to say-

- 
Sandy Mackinnon
University of Strathclyde
Glasgow
cbas38@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
From: gerrymac@rugrat.UK.Sun.COM (Gerry McGeachy - SUN Scotland)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: Did New Zealand really beat Scotland in 1982 ???
Date: 29 Aug 92 00:28:36 GMT
Reply-To: gerrymac@rugrat.UK.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: rugrat.uk.sun.com

For once and for all, Scotland comfortably beat New Zealand 5-2, and then were defeated 4-1 by Brazil (after amazingly taking the lead through a Dave Narey cracker!), they then only managed to draw with the USSR 2-2, and that was thanks to a late goal from the original " Hammer Thrower" himself Graeme Souness (Who is now currently recking Liverpool F.C.), and a foul by Alan Hansen on Willie Miller, his team mate!! to let Russia go on and score past Alan Rough!

This left us on three points in the group, and as usual failed to qualify on Goal difference.  

Thanks to all for reminding us of another campaign of disaster!!!

Cheers,

Gerry.

P.s. Why don't people include the original mail AFTER they state their point, it get's off putting if you have to read the original first!!!

In article 5279@syma.sussex.ac.uk, pauldv@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Paul Devine) writes:
mikec@unixg.ubc.ca (Michael Cherkassoff) writes:
: In <1992Aug19.011121.17716@CS.ORST.EDU> visconm@fog.CS.ORST.EDU (Marcello Visconti) writes:
: 
: 
: >For ex, in 1982 South America had 4 hard spots: Brasil, Argentina, Chile 
: >and Peru, and some European team was defeated by New Zealand who attended
: >the Cup.
: 
: The group with New Zealand in 1982 consisted Brasil, USSR, Scotland and
: New Zealand. New Zealand did not qualify for the second round. USSR
: has beaten them 3-0, so the only possibility for what you're saying
: is true is that New Zealand has beaten Scotland, which I doubt.
: Somebody to clear it, please ?
: 
: >	Bye,
: 
: >	Marcello.
: 
: >-- 
: >+------------------------------------------------------------------+
: >| Marcello Visconti                 visconm@cs.orst.edu            |
: >| Computer Science Department       Oregon State University        | 
: >+------------------------------------------------------------------+
: 
: Cheers,
: 
: Michael.
 The answer is simply 'no'. Can't remember the score though. Scotland
didn't advance because they lost to Brazil and USSR.
From: wolff@crc.ricoh.com (Gregory J. Wolff)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
Subject: Re: Corporate Scrimmages on
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:25:00 GMT
Reply-To: wolff@crc.ricoh.com (Gregory J. Wolff)
Distribution: usa
Organization: RICOH California Research Center


In article <5313@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>, richard@slacvx.slac.stanford.edu (Richard Dubois) writes:

|>>Richard - an excellent list, I am impressed.  Tell me, is there a "club"
|>>in the Bay Area?  If not, is there a summer league?  Can the members of
|>>the summer league be turned into a club?  (Part of the reason why I'm

|> Actually I believe that someone in SF is running a newsletter, but I've never 
|> seen it.

As far as I know, there is no bay area ultimate club or newsletter.  There 
are winter leagues (SF and Berkeley/Oakland last winter), but they don't seem 
to be too heavy on the organization.  

Perhaps it is time to organize a disc club in the bay area.  There are
at least 500, maybe over 1000 people who play in the area.  Such an 
organization could help make life easier for those who play (eg. securing
lighted fields, helping organize & advertise leagues & tourneys, support the
formation of new teams, maybe even get pole hole courses installed), and 
promote disc sports in general (easier to get media attention, sponsorship, etc)

Some possibilities:
We could build on the rec.sport.disc foundation, maybe putting out a bi-monthly
newsletter that could be disseminated electronically and physically 
(eg. postscript form).  Individual volunteers could be responsible for the 
various sections (eg. leagues, corporate tourneys, etc).   

A catchy name is probably key, how about: 
	BAFFLE (Bay Area Frisbee Fanatics Losing Entropy)
	BAD (Bay Area Disc) or BADisc
	UBA (Ultimate Bay'ers Association)
	BANDD (Bay Area (No Dogs) Disc)
	others???

I'd be interested in hearing from other Disc clubs out there.  What to watch out
for, what to key on, who to look to for help, etc.

Any ideas, volunteers??

--Greg
Gregory J. Wolff
Ricoh California Research Center
2882 SandHill Rd. Suite 115
Menlo Park, CA 94025-7022
wolff@crc.ricoh.com
(415) 496-5718
fax: (415) 854-8740
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: ad785@yfn.ysu.edu (Dan Galvin)
Subject: Re: PDGA Championships in Michigan
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 22:16:33 GMT


Well just for the record, I would like to know the
spilt of regular readers.  I am primarily a DISC GOLF
player and reader, but I am interested in getting into
Ultimate more, so I DO read postings on the subjects, as well
as give the college rankings to the collegiate team here when
applicable.
ONE VOTE FOR GOLF
-- 
Dan Galvin
University of Toledo Office of Recreation
RCR0003@UOFT01.bitnet  : DGALVIN@UOFT02.utoledo.edu : AD785@yfn.ysu.edu
DGALVIN@heartland.bradley.edu  : as427@cleveland.freenet.edu : DANIMAL@tso.uc.e
From: ULTIMATE STEFKE <STEVENS@IBN.AGRO.NL>
Approved: news@is.morgan.com