HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 00:23:38 GMT

In<isaac.726184308@etrog> isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Dr Isaac Balbin) writes:
>abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad) writes:

>>Sorry to barge in (O.K., so I'm not really sorry :-) ), but I just want
>>to ask:  Dr. Balbin, In Your Honest Opinion, do you think it is fair for
>>Israel to toss out 400+ Palestinians out of their homeland without
>>individual trials or individual convictions?

>My opinion is that this is pseudo-war, and that  this is a most potent
>NON-VIOLENT way to send a very strong message to murderous protaganists

First of all, you have an odd definition of non-violent.  Certainly, it
could have been more violent; people could have been killed.  But
rounding up people at gunpoint and kicking them out of the country is
quite a stretch from non-violent.

>that they cease violence as a means to their ends.

Secondly, do you think this sends that message at all?  Do you think
this discourages or encourages violence?

>I feel sure, and I am sure you will agree that had the shoe been
>on the other foot, and it was a Jewish Terrorist Organisation working
>out of an Arab country that there would have been NO deportation (or trial)
>instead there  would have been fast tracked mass executions.

Which has nothing to do with whether Israel's action was justified.  The
fact that Japan was busy trying to annex China, raping Nanking, and
kidnapping Korean women to serve as prostitutes did NOT justify the
internment of the Japanese-Americans during World War 2.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:21:14 GMT

Kevin Giansante writes:

>Oh no, Jake, that's not what I'm saying at all; I see no civil
>war.
>
>Here, let me make myself clear: What I see are Palestinians
>resisting persecution and oppression by a military power that has
>occupied their territory.  That's not a civil war.  That's self-
>defense.

I guess it's time for a reality check again-

    1.	Using any standard that we use on this planet to define an
	indigenous population, Jews are native to Eretz Yisrael,
	thus Jews who come to Israel are returning, not colonizing.

    2.	The Zionists acquired land LEGALLY in Turkish and British
	controlled Palestine, which is a lot cleaner than the
	European colonization of the Americas and Australia.
	There were no "foreign invaders" that the Arabs started
	murdering in the 1920; they were an indiginous population
	who nonetheless legally acquired their homesteads from the
	legal (and mainly Arab) owners.

    3.	Nevertheless, when the UN proposed a settlement of the situation,
	which gave the Jews a lot less than was the original understanding
	with the legal (i.e., Britain) governing power, the Jews
	accepted it, but the Arabs rejected it.

    4.	If the 1949 armistice line had been accepted by the Arabs (and
	it appears now from the rhetoric that "occupied territory"
	seems to refer to the difference between the 1949 line and
	the current cease-fire (with Syria and Jordan) and the negotiated
	border (with Egypt), there never would've been a 1967 war to
	begin with.

Out of curiousity, is "occupied territory" a little vague?  That is, while
the Western press is led to interpret it as the land controlled by
Israel past the 1949 armistice line, don't many Arabs really consider
it all the land between Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan?
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: cng@me.utoronto.ca (Charles Ng)
Subject: Sharing Business Ideas in Toronto
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Distribution: soc
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:40:51 GMT

Are you living in Toronto and the vacinity cities?  Are you interested in
setting up a business of your own and tire of the idea of forever working
9-5 at a job for your financial needs.  We have an excellent team of people
helping each other to build spectacular business.  We like to talk to you.
Please feel free to leave message at my email: cng@me.utoronto.ca

Thanks
charles


Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: afadel@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ayman Fadel)
Subject: Re: Hieroglyphics
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 13:18:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.080233.3086@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.013914.2366@ucbeh.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu writes:
>
>>an egyptian does not even know his own history! hieroglyphics are by and large
>
>If you had that much history, you'd have trouble remembering it all too ;-)
>
>>letters. there are some symbols here and there, but the vast majority are
>>letters, in fact the names sound like arabic/hebrew (aleph, beth, etc.).
>>
>
>I was always under the impression that most of the characters represented
>words, rather than letters.  More like Chinese rather than Arabic.  I'll
>look it up and post later.
>
>How can *anyone* know what the *names* of the characters sound like?  I
>can see that you can guess how some of the characters are pronounced by
>identifying some proper names on the Rosetta stone (even then, you 
>wouldn't be sure that the name was pronounced the same way in hieroglyphics
>as it would be in Greek; Egypt/Mesr for example), but that would give you
>a guess as to how only those characters that appear in names on the stone
>are pronounced.  And you cannot extrapolate sounds the same way you can
>extrapolate meaning.
>
In Arabic, 'MiSr' just means city.  It refers to the city
that the Muslim soliders established near what is today Cairo.
Later on the word MiSr came to signify the region.  This is
similar to Tuunis Al-'aaSima and tuunis, or Ash-shaam (the city
Damascus) and Ash-Shaam (the Levant).  Even today we say
rayeh ala masr when we want to go from Al-Minya to Cairo, for
example.

Al-Basra and Al-Musil and other cities were also called 'amSaar'.

but i could never understand the aaya in which Allah says
iHbiTuu miSran

The arabic word QibT appears in many aathaar, including
the ones related to An-Nabiy (salla allahu alayhi wa
sallam) telling the Muslims to be kind to the Egyptians
when they conquered Egypt.  Also his wife was name
Maryam Al-QibTiyya.  Also, Umm Ismaa'iil is QibTiyaa.

Although Tamer is right in pointing out that there are
problems in relying on Greek to know how the ancient
Egyptian language sounded like.  A good example of this
is the tourist city in Egypt Al-Gharadaqa.  The Germans
who come pronounce it Haradaga, or something weird like
that, and all the Latinizations of the word reflect their
pronounciation.  Now that I think about it, the same
applies to Cairo and Luxor.


salaam
ayman

Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Bulbul)
Subject: Re: What is HAMAS
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:47:24 GMT

In <1993Jan5.015526.26763@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad) writes:

" In article <nabeel.725997319@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> a@b.ca (G., N. M.) writes:

" >   I was astounded by your statements;
" >   
" >   1. Palestine is a Muslim land
" >   2. Most Jews are there illegally
" >   3. The places is at war
" >   4. The ratio of Jews that can be considered civilians is negligible
" >   5. The other party does not treat prisoners decently   
" >   6. The Israili soldier was not imprisoned (did not surrender,) so, he/she/it
" >      can not be considered a prisoner, not to mention a civilian
" >   7. It is enough offense for the soldier to belong to the Israeli army,
" >   etc.
" >

" First, find me a dictionary that says that if you do not surrender, but
" are caught anyway, then you're *not* a prisoner (what do they call you?

   This has nothing to do with dictionaries; I think prisoners are who are
held captive against their own will, unless otherwise explicitly mentioned.

" a 'harmless combatant'?!).  By that logic, all the wounded that fall in enemy
" hands are not POW's because they didn't voluntarily surrender.  Get serious.

   Being prisoners in this sense, as I believe, does not grant someone any
priviliges, e.g. refer to Sa`d ibn Mu`ath (raa) verdict upon bani Quraithah.
Unless someone brings my attention to other evidence, I believe prisoners can
be killed, can be forced to give out military secrets in wars, can be freed
for a ransom or other agreement, otherwise can not be tortured. If you think
something other than this, please provide Islamic evidence. Good luck!

" Second, the logic of your #7 ranks up there with the Israeli government logic
" in expelling the 400+ Palestinians.  'Nuff said!

   I am glad you raised this question, because I believe the Israeli logic 
behind this is sound and correct. If you are a member of a prohibited group, 
then it is an offense and you must be punished accordingly. I find the Israeli 
punishment very mild regarding that. (However, this does not imply that I 
approve of all Israeli policies or their occupation of Muslim land.)
For comparison purposes, please, compare this with what Arab countries do to
their first-class citizens who oppose the government. Have fun!

" BTW, what happened to all the flowery signatures?  I kinda miss them :-)

For your eyes:
   
             _
 |\_________(@)= |CENSORED|    The above is fiction. I hope you enjoyed it!
   \_\  --/ _/                      
     \=====/       "wa lI qalamon  fI 'onmolI  'in hazaztohO            
        ||            famA  .duRunI   'aLA  'ahoZa   lmohaNadA
        ~~          'i_thA .sUla fawqa .Tirsi waq^o .sarIrihI
                     fa'iNa  .sulIla  lmashrafiYi  lahO  .sudA" 
                                           -- ibn Sana' Al-Mulk


Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: WHERE DO THE "palestinians" COME FROM?
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1993Jan8.183031.21313@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
	<1993Jan9.005000.12393@ncsu.edu>
	<1993Jan9.020712.29014@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Date: 8 Jan 93 23:03:23

In article <1993Jan9.020712.29014@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso) writes:
>   Israeli aid does not represent a transfer of money to Israel, if
>   Israel gives the U.S. more in return!
>
>	   "Joseph Churba, a former top Air Force intelligence official
>	   and head of the Washington-based Center for International
>	   Security, estimated that it would cost the United States $100
>	   billion or more in additional spending -- and the deployment
>	   of more than 200,000 of its own troops -- to replace Israel's
>	   pro-U.S. strategic weight in the Middle East."
>		   --Myths and Facts,
>		    A concise Record of the Arab-Israeli Conflict,
>		    1989

Ah yes, the famous Myths and Facts, edited by Leonard J. Davis and
Moshe Decter.  Funny that they cannot tell the difference between
myths and facts.  Now who is this famous analyst Joseph Churba?  And
how did he derive this silly $100 billion figure?  Why, that exceeds
Israel's GNP!  At that price, we would just buy up Israel and pay them
a handy profit each year for the "pro-U.S. strategic weight".

Sorry for the sarcasm, but come on.

Let's see.  Ah yes.  Joseph Churba, Ph.D. Columbia 1965.  His thesis
was on sub-Saharan foreign aid conflicts between Israel and the U.A.R.
He must have been in ROTC, as he served at Maxwell AFB in Alabama for
a couple of years.  He seems to be a regular critic of American
foreign policy in the Middle East.  Must have an axe to grind.  I'll
have to take a look at his book "The politics of defeat : America's
decline in the Middle East" for a laugh.  It was written in 1977, just
a year before the Camp David accords.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 23:29:20 GMT

In article <1ib014INNlsu@shelley.u.washington.edu> kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante) writes:

>"Oh come on" yourself.  The deportation was done in a violent
>manner, and you can't change that by trying to change the
>definition of "violent" or by saying that violence is relative to
>the circumstances.  Violence and brutality are violence and
>brutality no matter what you call them.

Okay, it sounds like you are agreeing that what has long been called
an Uprising or the "Intifada" is actually a bloody civil war with the
aim of overthrowing the government and replacing it with an Arab and
probably an Islamic government.

>You can't change reality by changing its name.  Facts don't go
>away just because you choose not to see them.

This has been precisely my point for a long time, though the Western
press often tries to put a different spin on it.  Thanks for being so
straightforward. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 23:37:35 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.93Jan6232956@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.222732.11871@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>   "Occupied their territory"?  Unlike Egypt and Lebanon, say, there has
>>   never in history been a Palestinean empire, kingdom, country or state.
>
>The same can be said of Massachusetts.  It is not a terribly
>enlightening statement.

It is very illuminating.

The Palestineans are calling for the establishment of a "Homeland" for
themselves in exactly the same plot of land that someone else already
has a homeland.  However, the Palestineans have no historical, legal,
political or cultural justification for this "homeland" that they
propose be excised from the Jewish state.

>>   If the West Bank has been "occupied" by Israel, wouldn't it be exactly
>>   equally true to say that the East Bank has been "occupied" by Jordan?
>
>Tell you what, if you argue that Israel should give up the West Bank,
>I'll argue that Jordan should give up the East Bank.  If you don't
>agree to this, then you are just blowing hot air.

Agreed.  When Jordan approaches the Peace negotiations offering Land
to Israel in return for Peace from Israel, a new understanding may
indeed of the situation may indeed arise.

Not only was my previous paragraph written in all seriousness, but
seeing as "Palestine" was the name of a region comprising primarily
what is today Israel and Jordan and "Palestineans" primarily referred
to the Jewish and Arab people who lived in this region, it is entirely
proper to divide the land in dispute equitably among the people who
are disputing it.  You will still find that Israel is a tiny land, and
that the Jews received a small part of the region.  If you still
insist that Israel give up the WB, it is entirely appropriate for
Jordan to give up the EB in a proportionate manner.  What is it,
something like 50% of the land mass of either country?  I'm sure that
the Jordanians and the Hashemites will just love that one.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: WHERE DO THE "Palestinians" COME FROM?
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:15:11 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

In article <1993Jan07.035043.109892@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
>Tsiel Ohayon, you stun me sometimes.  Why do you think less of our
>woman.   Enough of your stereotyping crap.  Our women are as
>normal as any other women in the world if not better.  At least
>they have the tendency to deal with our sh*tty cultural actions
>that Islam tends to fight.
>
>jle

And I guess that the other times I do not stun you, is because you don't
understand what I'm trying to say :-)

Read my another responses to A. Faris and Anisa about the subject.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
Subject: Re: An Arabic language question
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 07:18:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan08.063654.2032@rat.csc.calpoly.edu> rteasdal@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Rusty) writes:
>
>	Here's a question which I hope some of the Arabic-speakers
>in this newsgroup might be able to help with:
>
>	I was having a discussion with a friend the other day,
>talking about someone we know. I was trying to describe his character
>and personality, and was searching for appropriate words with which to
>do that.
>
>	As I was thinking, I very vaguely recalled having seen an 
>Arabic word in print quite a long time ago, along with a rough translation. 
>It was one which very neatly and elegantly captured what I was trying
>and failing to say in English. However, I don't want to throw the word
>around lightly without being sure that the usage is correct, so I
>thought that I would check it here.
>
>	I'm not sure about how to adequately spell the word, but since
>there's not any real way to directly transliterate between the Arabic
>and English alphabets, I'll render it phonetically.
>
>	The word, as best I remember, was "taqiyeh"?

Offhand, I can think of "taqi" or "taqia" but that mean pious.

>	What I thought it meant was the behavior of a man who shows
>one face to the world, while privately thinking and behaving quite
>differently. I suppose the closest single English equivalent would
>be "hypocritical behavior", but I'm not sure that's an adequate or
>complete translation.

I guess such a person would be "monafiq".

>	Can someone expand on this topic and provide me with some
>details? I certainly would not want to use the word in an incorrect
>manner out of ignorance.

I'm sure there are other words but I can't think of them right now.

>-- 
>||||||||   Russ Teasdale -- rteasdal@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU  --  (Rusty)  ||||||||
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gentlemen, if we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure." - D. Quayle

Zeyd
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Look who? Rabin is talking..
Date: 6 Jan 1993 19:44:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



Jan 6 news, NY Times...

Some lights:

Many of those netted in the roundup are businessmen, academics,
lawyers, doctors, teachers, nurses, and others with a high
profile and no cirminal records.

Rabin promised Israelis that deportaions would "cut the head
of the snake"-- that Hamas would no longer be able to function.

His words proved to be piteously unprophetic this week when
a Shin Bet agent was stabbed and bludgeoned to death by Hamas
operatives who  s u c c e s s f u l l y  infiltrated a Jerusalem
safe house in what would appear to be the group's most daring 
operation to date.

Off the record, Israeli military and security sources freely 
admit that the deportation was a botched exercise, ill-planned
and clumsily executed.   
_______             _____________                     _________

The last paragraph are the symptoms of hesteria!!

Didn't i tell you the best is yet to come ? 

                       T a k b i r  !
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: He's finally arrived
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1993 20:28:48 GMT
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University

In article <C0JnvE.D2y@imag.fr>, oueichek@gram (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:
|
|>   As a side question (this one can be a subject for a debate), does anyone
|> among our fellows s.c.a readers have an experience with teaching their kids
|> how to speak our natif language (Arabic, of course) at the same time with
|> the environment language (in my case French). I know that kids are very
|> good in learning languages but should i start to speak French with him once
|> he starts to pronounce words or should i wait ?. I'm really interested because
|> my son has started to pronounce some words and i have no experience in this
|> field (well, this is our first son, maybe once i have the 10th i'll be enough
|> experienced :-)).

Well, quite the opposite.  I believe you should speak Arabic to him
not French at this age.  Even though he may not be using sentences
or pronouncing words clearly, it is at this age that children start
vocalizing and aquiring vocabulary.  He will easily pick up French
from his environment, concentrate on the Arabic, especially if you
will remain in France for an extended period of time.  I try to speak
only Arabic to my daughter and leave the English for her.  Though
she now understands some Arabic, she prefers to speak in English
because at her age (2 1/2) and older, children are very self-conscious
and do not want to be different from their peers and environment.
Even though your son does not speak yet, just hearing Arabic sounds
will cause him to mimic your sounds and vocalize Arabic sounds
that he can only aquire when he is young.  By vocalizing kids
shape their vocal chords and if they don't vocalize Arabic
sounds like the 3ain (trans = eye) or the ~H (as in ~Hmar = donkey),
then he will have difficulty reproducing these sounds accurately 
when he is older.  
So my advice talk to him in Arabic only, French should be no problem
for him if he is living in France.

|>   Thank you for your help, and agains 10000000000000000000000000000000000
|> MABROUK.

Mabrouk to Aziz and his wife.

|>   Now back to our regular "cultural" debates :-). Did i say something wrong ?.

Yes, alas, there is little "culture" in our debates  ;-)


Basil



				
|> 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic