From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Disproof of Proof 1
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:33:58 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium


In article <1jklahINNh6a@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> Gedaliah Friedenberg writes

>In article <1993Jan18.113815.29172@ucl.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay
>Bhuchar) writes:
>
>>Daniel writes that from the decree to restore and rebuild
>>Jerusalem until "Mashiach Nagid" (Messiah the Prince or an
>>anointed prince) will be seven AND sixty two "weeks" or "sevens"
>>(of years) (*1).
>
>>(*1a) A week is a period of seven-years - compare with Lev 25:1-8
>
>>(*1b) seven AND sixty two weeks - Many Bibles both Jewish and
>>Christian punctuate the first seven away from the next sixty two.
>
>As it should.  It is referring to two different things.  See below.
>
>>Under this method it was suggested that there were 2 separate
>>mashiachs - the first after 7 weeks and the next after another
>>62 weeks.
>
>Please read below.  You argue here that the messiah will come after 7
>weeks or possibly again after 62 weeks.  Below you argue that Jesus
>came after 69 weeks.  This is inconsistent.  

NOT TRUE!  When I first tried showing this prophecy to a friend he produced
his anti-mission kit in which his refutation was that mashiach simply means
'anointed' and not 'Messiah'.  Subsequently the 'Cyrus-Onais' *fulfilment*
came about since both are 'anointed' but neither are 'Messiahs'.

I was merely pointing this out.

>
>Try reading the main verse (25) in Hebrew.  Here is a better
>translation (any native Hebrew speakers can look it up and make a
>better translation if mine is not adequate):
>	"Know and discern that from the going forth of the word to restore and
>	build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and
>	for sixty two weeks shall it be built again with streets and moats,
>	but in troublesome times."
>
>
>If Jesus came after 69 weeks, why did Daniel not say so forthright
>(instead of 7 plus 62)?  If you read the proper Hebrew version (or the
>best possible translation), it is clear.  According to the correct
>translation (or the orginal Hebrew) is it clear that the messiah will
>come after 7 weeks, then the city will remain intact for 62 weeks
>(verse 26), then it will be destroyed.  The Christian translation
>cannot explain why Daniel separated the years into two.  

Yes it can.  Without the punctuation, the first 7 weeks are taken to be the
time during which Jerusalem was rebuilt.  The Book of Nehemiah describes the
rebuilding 'even in troublous times'

BUT with the punctuation the following occurs:
(1) The decree to rebuild goes out and then there is a 7 'week' delay (48 to
49 year delay? - unlikely!)
(2) It takes the rest of the 62 'weeks' to rebuild Jerusalem ( no records that
Jerusalem took this long to rebuild )

>If you read the correct translation, you will see that after the 62 
>"weeks" that the anionted one will be cut off *AND* the sanctuary will
>be destroyed.  If Jesus was the messiah, consider the following:
>Jesus was crucified in the year 32AD.  The sanctuary (Temple) was
>destroyed in 70AD.  This is a 38 solar-year difference.  Playing by
>your rules (using your incorrect tabulation and math - see below) we
>find that 38 x 365.242 = 13879.196 days;  13879.196 days / 360 =
>38.553322 "biblical" 360-day years.  38.553322 / 7 = 5.5076175 "weeks"
>(a week being 7 years).  Therefore you are more than five "weeks" or
>38 solar years off!

I am truly glad that you brought this one up.  I am not of the school of
thought that the Temple was destroyed on the 9th Ab, 70 CE.  I see a FORTY
year link which I mentioned (in another newsgroup) before Christmas.

One of next weeks postings provisionally entitled 'Dispersion' will go into
it a little bit more.

>I am not claiming that my post is a
>*proof* that Jesus wasn't the messiah (although I certainly believe this
>to be true).  I am just showing the faults in the "proofs" given by
>the "Messianic" community to draw Jews away from Torah and into the
>Church. 
>
>Gedaliah Friedenberg
>-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
>-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
>-=-Michigan State University


Nobody wants to draw Jews away from being Jewish.  *Even if* the Christians
are mistaken in their belief they truly believe that Messianic Judaism is what
God wants for the Jew.

======================================================================
Last point: A GOOD refutation of this proof would consist of naming the
subjects in this prophecy and substantiating with dates, figures and records.

Until then any Jew who ostracises a 'Jew for Jesus' has no right to do so.

Vijay (ucakrvb@uk.ac.ucl)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic