From: johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Arthur Johnson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Islamic stories...
Date: 1 Sep 92 00:10:35 GMT
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison

In article <l9q6soINNfur@pollux.usc.edu> aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed  
Abd-Allah) writes:
> >From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
>  
> >	The earth was made in 2 days (41:9)
> >	all things in it      4 days (41:10)
> >	the heavens in        2 days (41:12)
>                 ---------------------------
> >		total =       8 days	  
> 
> Mr. Johnson posted the verses which you have again paraphrased.  He also
> noted that this is one set of verses which he could not understand  
except
> as a contradiction.  These verses, taken by themselves may or may not  
mean
> a total of eight days certainly.  Just as the verses mentioned above,  
when
> taken separately, can be confusing.  Here is a simple analogy which  
might
> make you smile :-), and yet I hope you see my point - I am interested in
> what Mr. Johnson will say.
> 
> 	Ahmed takes 5 minutes to take his shower.
> 	Ahmed takes 7 minutes to boil his eggs.
> 	Ahmed takes 10 minutes to eat his eggs.
> 
> You and Mr. Johnson would conclude that these three sentences MUST  
describe
> a total of 22 minutes of poor Ahmed's life.  Well.  As it turns out,  
Ahmed
> put the eggs on the stove and then immediately went to the shower - thus
> wisely saving time.  The actual time spent is 17 minutes, mmmmm?
>
     Actually, I did think of your analogy, but I don't think that it  
applies very well to these passages. Firstly, since you didn't post Asad's  
translation of these verses, I'm going to assume that Dawood and Asad are  
in agreement as to what the text _says_ (if there is a serious  
disagreement here as to the _text_, please post how Asad translates it).  
Also, since Dawood's translation numbers every third or fourth verse only,  
I may occasionally not get the break between verses quite right, but as  
long as we read the whole set of passages through, we shouldn't lose any  
context. Now, verse 41:9 [Dawood] reads as follows:
 
    [41:9]
    Say: 'Do you indeed disbelieve in Him who created
    the earth in two days? And do you make other gods
    his equals? The Lord of the Universe is He.'

     IMO, this verse asserts that the earth was created by God in two  
days. Straightforward. Verse 41:10 [Dawood] then reads:

    [41:10]
    He set upon the earth mountains towering high above
    it. He pronounced his blessing upon it, and in four
    days provided it with sustenance for all alike.

     IMO, this verse is a continuation of 41:9, i.e. after God creates the  
earth, He sets toweringly high mountains upon it, blesses it, and in four  
days provides it with sustenance for all. First the earth is created  
(taking two days), and then the mountains are set upon it, etc. The earth  
exists prior to the mountains, the blessing, and the sustenance. There  
does not appear to be any sense of the earth and the mountains being  
created simultaneously; rather, the earth is a separate thing from the  
mountains (which are set _on_ the earth, and tower high _above_ the  
earth), and appear only _after_ the earth is created. The "four days"  
refers to the amount of time that it took to provide the earth with  
sustenance. Again, there is no sense that the earth is being created _and_  
being provided with sustenance for all simultaneously; rather, the  
provisioning appears to be taking place _after_ earth's creation.
I still agree with Robert here. Two days to create the earth, and then  
four days to set mountains upon it and provision it. Verses 41:11-12  
[Dawood] then say:

    [41:11-12]
    Then, turning to the sky, which was but a cloud of
    vapor, He said to it and to the earth: 'Come forward
    both, willingly or perforce.'
    'We will come willingly,' they answered. In two days
    He formed the sky into seven heavens, and to each
    heaven He assigned its task. We decked the lowest
    heaven with brilliant stars and guardian comets. Such
    is the design of the Mighty One, the All-knowing.

     IMO, the use of the word "then" implies a clear break here, in order  
to bring the earth and the sky (the sky not yet being complete) together.  
Two more days are required to complete the sky, and this work on the sky  
is performed _after_ the creation, mountain-setting, and provisioning of  
the earth. So, two plus four plus two still makes eight.
        
> Ok, I hope the analogy made its point.  However, in order for it to be
> applicable to this situation, there should be something in the Qur'an
> telling us the total time.  As you and Mr. Johnson have noted, there
> are many verses describing the total as six days.  For me, that is  
enough:
> verses [41:9-12] speak of a sequence but no total - one can get the  
wrong
> total by simple addition of the days described here.
>
     I understand, but as I read 41:9-12, I see a sequence of events, one  
following the other, rather than several events occurring simultaneously.  
I agree that verses 10:3, 11:7, and 7:54 say that the creation occurred in  
six days, but I also think that that differs from verses 41:9-12.

> But I don't want to
> squirm out of this as someone might squirm out of an equivalent  
situation
> like, say, with the Bible and its problems.  So let us ask an even  
stronger
> question to settle this once and for all:  Does Allah imply anywhere in
> the Qur'an of SIMULTANEITY between various actions during creation?
> Consult your copy of the Qur'an:
> 
> 	[79:27-30]
> 	Are you the more difficult to create or is it the
> 	sky above?  Allah has built it: On high has He raised
> 	its canopy, and He has given it order and perfection;
> 	He did make dark its night, and He brought out its light.
> 	And earth, after that, did He spread out.
> 
> The earth was in existence as the sky was being formed according to
> this verse.  Only after the actions described above had taken place
> did God 'spread out' or extend the surface of the earth.  The 
> implication is that certain stages of creation of the earth and
> the heavens took place concurrently.

     OK, Dawood's translation of 79:27-30 reads as follows:

     [79:27-30]
     Are you harder to create than the heaven which He has
     built? He raised it high and fashioned it, giving 
     darkness to its night and brightness to its day. After
     that He spread the earth,

     The wording is a little different, but I don't think that the meaning  
has been lost. However, in order to understand the context, one must  
continue a little further.

     [79:31-34?]
     and, drawing water from its depth, brought forth its
     pastures. He set down the mountains, for you and for
     your cattle to delight in.

     I don't think that your conclusions follow from the text, Ahmed. IMO,  
verses 79:27-29 discuss the formation of the heaven. Since these verses  
speak of night and day, I think that it's safe to assume that this is the  
"lowest" heaven described in 41:12. After this heaven is finished, verse  
79:30 then says that God "spread the earth". I agree that this could mean  
that earth was first created, then the "lowest" heaven was built and  
completed, and then the earth was spread out (sort of like a blanket,  
which must exist before it can be spread out). But I don't get any sense  
from these verses that the building of the "lowest" heaven and the  
spreading out of the earth are occurring concurrently. Perhaps you are  
thinking that the spreading out of the earth and the building of the  
_other_ six "higher" heavens are what is occurring concurrently? Of  
course, that is possible, but these verses are completely silent on that  
issue, and so offer no proof as to the truth or falsehood of that  
possibility. 
     What seems far more serious, however, are the implications of verses  
79:31-34?. It appears from these verses that at least some of the  
provisioning, as well as the setting down of the mountains upon the earth,  
are performed _after_ the building of the "lowest" heaven. This appears to  
_reverse_ the order laid out in 41:9-12. Another contradiction, perhaps?    

> [stuff about which religion has more love in it deleted]

     I think that I follow the debate about love now. I'll look at the  
cited Koran verses and maybe comment upon them. For now, the only comment  
that I'll make is in reference to this statement [of Ahmed's]:

> For myself, I have no assumptions on this point: Allah condones the
> return killing of perpetrators of violent killing; Muslims MUST defend
> themselves in war against the most well-intentioned of non-Muslims or
> otherwise.

     I assume that you mean against non-Muslims who initiate physical  
(violent) war against Muslims, and are not implying that Muslims are  
required to wage violent war against non-Muslims generally. Even so,  
there's no question that this is very different from Christianity. As a  
Christian, I would say that any person has the right to defend  
himself/herself from physical attack by an adversary, human or non-human  
(no dispute here with Islam). However, I would not say that God therefore  
_condones_ the return killing of one's adversary, even if that adversary  
has already killed other people. I grant that, in defending oneself, the  
end result of the combat may be the death of one's adversary. But the fact  
that the circumstances resulted in death is far different from saying that  
God (and by implication, you or I) should approve of the death. The death  
was, at best, a tragic necessity, and at worst, something that was  
avoidable, e.g. the adversary might have been subdued instead of killed. I  
suggest that you might want to check out the philosophy of the martial art  
of aikido, a method of self-defense geared toward subduing one's adversary  
without killing him or her.
 
>       
> 
> >Robert Weiss
> >psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
> 
> A note to Mr. Johnson, whom I hope has read this: My answers here are
> my answers to you as well (to save bandwidth and my time).  Any 
> differences are intentional, but I am happy to see that there are few -
> I appreciate your honesty.
>
     I do try.
 
> Ahmed A. Abd-Allah

Arthur Johnson
johnson@offroad.chem.wisc.edu

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me." -- the Jesus Prayer
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc