From: martin@adpgate.UUCP (Martin Golding)
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles
Subject: Re: Countersteering a shafty
Date: 21 Aug 92 00:42:12 GMT
Organization: ADP Dealer Services R&D, Portland, OR

randy@ninja.megatek.uucp (Randy Davis) writes:

>   First off, you HAVE to countersteer to turn ANY two-wheeled conveyance
> when the two wheels are aligned in the same track.  

You are wrong. I have proven it. I am willing to prove it in your presence,
on your motorcycle. Just give me a call before you fly it here.


>> It's still probably not advisable to 'roll on' in a corner with a chain drive
>> but it would have less adverse reaction than a shaftie.

Dana was _kidding_. He was being _funny_. He has too much time on his hands.


>   It is no problem to roll-on the throttle in a corner with a chain bike, as
> long as you have enough traction to handle the cornering forces in addition to
> the added acceleration.  

It is likewise no problem to roll on and off the throttle of a shaft driven
motorcycle while turning. I did it last night at 40, and this morning at 70.
Increased throttle decreased the rate of turn for any given input, decreased
throttle increased the rate of turn for any given input. I'll be glad to try
it on my Ducati (chain) if someone thinks that it'll be different. I don't.


>   Countersteering is more than OK - you simply can't turn without it, whether
> you are on a shaft-drive motorcycle, a chain-drive motorcycle, a BICYCLE, or
> any OTHER two-wheeled vehicle where the wheels or aligned in one track...

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! but thank you for playing. (I _hate_ that expression.)

I can steer my shaft driven Yamaha Virago with no hands.
I can steer my shaft driven BMW R100/7 with no hands.
I can steer my chain driven Ducati with no hands.
My wife, who doesn't ride herself, has been able to steer every motorcycle
she's been on from the REAR SEAT. See "swervies" in "games you can play".
If anybody wants to bring their bike to the Northwest, I'll be glad to
steer theirs with no hands. And I'll even buy the beer afterwards.

So yes, it is possible to turn a two-wheeled vehicle without countersteering.
Or are you going to invent a new definition for countersteer that doesn't
include touching the handlebars?


In order to change your rate of turn, it is necessary for the relative
positions of the center of mass and the line of support between your tires
to change. This can be accomplished by moving the wheels (countersteering)
or by changing the center of mass (weight shifting) or both. If you were
in the mood you could steer a two wheeled vehicle by pumping enough liquid
back and forth between trim tanks.

I can countersteer without a weight shift (using the seat and tank to get
enough force from the motorcycle to keep my upper body in the same line).

I can countersteer with an opposite weight shift, not moving my upper body
with the motorcycle (which _increases_ the required countersteering input;
this is what a passenger does to you when he tries to remain upright
while you're turning).

I can shift my weight to reduce the countersteering effort, even to the
extent of overcontrolling, requiring an opposite input to the bars to
limit the turn (it's still countersteering, it could be called counter-
countersteering, and it's part of what confuses people into thinking
that they're steering).

And I've never in my life owned a two-wheeled vehicle that I couldn't steer
no-handed. I don't believe it's possible. (Note that I'm not planning on
_racing_ this hypothetical vehicle with no hands, unless it's a CX500).


> Shifting or adjusting the throttle might affect how MUCH input you have to
> give to countersteer, but you have to do it irreguardless of the make, model,
> or your riding style...

wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and irregardless isn't a word. :-Pthpthpthpthpth


On the other hand, my older BMW doesn't respond to weight shifts.


Martin Golding             | Ducati: Just think of it as
Dod #236 0354 .EC          |  "decreasing turn insurance".
[motcsd!]mcspdx!adpgate!martin

PS What's a two-wheeled vehicle with the wheels _not_ aligned in one track?