From: ira2p@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Iain Robert Asplin)
Subject: Re: Invasion of Time
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 05:10:58 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.002436.21341@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>
>
>RUBBISH. Now answer me this. If Time Lords are not born with the ability 
>to regenerate, then why would they be born with the Rassilon Imprimature,
>or their link to the matrix? I find it hard to believe they would be. 
>An ordinary Gallifreyan would know this surely, and so would know that 
>being able to regenerate would not make them Time Lords. An alien race on
>the other hand, might believe that it was only regeneration that was required.
>
The Rassilon Imprimature and Matrix-link would most likely be bestowed
upon Gallifreyans whether or not they would become Time Lords (maybe not
the Matrix, but certainly the Imprimature) for without the Imprimature,
they wouldn't be able to travel through time by themselves (or with
others without the imprimature), and if they are in the Academy, they are
going to need some field trips every now and then.  
The regenerations are the final gift, possibly the matrix-link as well.
The Eight didn't have that yet, and didn'want to wait around or for some
reason they all knew they couldn't get Time Lordship (perhaps they came
from unpopular chapters or families or had "records" behind them.)


>
>>Suit yourself. I just apply Occam's razor, which I think in this case says
>>that the simplest assumtion is that they were alien scientists who the 
>>Time Lords caught and punished. We know that knowledge has been stolen 
>>from the matrix, and that could be where the 8 got the machine. To me this
>>is simpler than assuming an elaborate set of restrictions on Gallifrey and
>> "inventing" the theory Time Lords get their regenerations after thay 
>>have gone to the academy. You don't see it this way? Oh Well.
>>
>
>>>This is not the simplest argument at all, because it is impossible for
>>>anyone outside Gallifrey to have come in and stolen the regenerator.
>>>They had to be Gallifreyans.  
>
>All we know is that the equipment was Gallifreyan in origin, possibly stolen
>from Gallifrey. We do not know how the eight acquired it. If aliens can still
>from the matrix itself, then getting hold of a regenerator would not prevent 
>a problem.

We know the aliens were in possession of a machine the Doctor says must
have been stolen from Gallifrey, and were on board a ship in permanant
warp ellipse with a dimensionally transcendental transmat capsule.
Looks pretty Gallifreyan to me.



>
>>>The Minyans did not have the type of regeneration that Time Lords do.
>>>They had machines that would regenerate anything placed into them.
>>>A Time Lord is someone able of regenerating without the aid of a machine.
>>>The type of machine given the Minyans couldn't work since it bestows no
>>>permanant effects.  
>>>By employing your own argument of simplicity, the "another Time Lord
>>>stole the regenerator" is more complex than my theory.
>
>Firstly I am not saying that another Time Lord stole the machine. We do not 
>know how they acquired it. I am simply pointing out that there are lots of]
>ways it could have happened. Assuming aliens stole the machine is not a
>complex assumption since aliens have been trying to steal, and sometimes 
>succeding, Time Lord technology for many years on Dr Who. Why should the 8
>in Mawdryn be different?

Yes it is a complex assumption as there is no way in sentient creation
that they could get past all the defenses of Gallifrey undetected.
(or perhaps I should say "without being stopped.")
(Assuming they didn't get help from the inside, but even if they did, 
they'd still need a TARDIS to get in.)

>
>Secondly, the Minyans were given the ability to regenerate using the machine.
>This proves the Time Lords can give people the ability to regenerate,
>(Leela for example, wife of that well known Time Lord Andred). If the 8
>were ordinary Gallifreyans, why not steal the regeneration bestowing 
>machine (assuming the Time Lords are given their regenerations at some stage)
>from Gallifrey, instead of trying to adapt a machine not designed for the job.
>
That's the point, the macine the Minyans had did not bestow the regenerations.
Their machine just regenerated whoever was placed in it.  One time only 
and they needed to be plugged in for every regeneration.  It could not
and did not bestow permanant effects.  The Eight are more likely to get
more mileage from a machine that works on healing or repairing permanant
regenerating people than one that just regenerates whoever's sitting in
the bed.


>
>A third point, which i will follow up in a later post is Runcible.
>You would like to argue that Runcible is not a Time Lord. But if this is
>correct it proves Gallifreyans can regenerate. Can you figure out why?
>
>Mark C.
>
No, I can't figure out why.  If anything, he proves the opposite.
Runcible was stabbed in the back by the Master, which to me looks like a
slow enough death that he should be able to regenerate his way out of
it and he couldn't.



>
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