HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Aikido teaching styles
Organization: TECHbooks of Beaverton Oregon - Public Access Unix
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 18:36:36 GMT

tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:

>In <1992Apr15.214545.23522@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:

>>My own observationof "touchy-feely" teachers has nothing to do with Ki
>>Society or Tohei Sensei but with Americans (Californians, in large part)
>>whose interpretation of aikido does not include teaching a solid
>>functional background but instead a sort of New Age psychobabble.

>I must take exception to this, as an American, Californian, and
>Aikidoka...our dojo does not engage in "New Age psychobabble" and a
>good number of other dojos in the area do not either...I believe that
>Chiba for one is in San Diego.  There is also Sensei Toms of Aiki-kai
>in San Diego as well, who is a close disciple of Saito Sensei -- a

Oooh, I _knew_ this was going to set off some Californians.  I shouldn't
have included that parenthetical remark, I know.  (blush)  You will
note, however, that I said "my own observation" and I stick by that.  My
training was in California, where I was exposed to a lot of different
dojos in which that attitude existed.  I didn't say -- or imply -- that
_all_ Californians or _all_ Americans, for that matter, suffered from
it.

I do contend, however, that dojos closely linked to Japanese teachers
are much less likely to wander off on this path (duck! she's got a
brick!).  You mention both Chiba Sensei and Saito Sensei yourself.  The
"touchy-feely" stuff _does_ seem in large part restricted (if not to
Americans) to non-Japanese teachers.


>Yes, there are dojos that take a less than solid approach, that do not
>emphasize what we think of as the basics.  Some of them are
>nevertheless very good dojos.  Others fall into the category of
>"touchy-feely".  But they are found all over.  We have had students in
>our dojo from other places and countries, and some of them were
>clearly taught with different standards where their 2nd or 1st kyu was
>more equivalent to our 3rd kyu levels.  The worst was one woman from
>Oregon or Washington who sported a brown belt and would have barely
>qualified for our 5th kyu.

Well, she couldn't _possibly_ have been from Oregon. :-)


>In any case, arguing over this, and in particular making
>generalizations about this, really strikes me as an exercise in
>futility...

>Regards,
>--Cindy

I don't think discussing differences in approach _is_ an exercise
in futility.  I think the quality of teaching is the _root_ of martial
arts training.

--Jeff Frane
  Multnomah Aikikai (in Oregon! :-) )



-- 
gummitch@techbook.COM  Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) 
"Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe."
                                    --Thomas Jefferson
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: 2 questions.  Please read.
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:38:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: zeus.JON.92Apr8143833
Organization: Foo

In article <12365@auspex-gw.auspex.com> bae@Auspex.COM (Brian Ehrmantraut) writes:

   In article <1299@hydra.bucknell.edu>, cammarta@bucknell.edu (aaron cammarata `93) writes:
   > 2) When sparring, what goes through your head?

	   Ideally, "nothing".

a reply reminiscent of rinzai zen; clever, but perhaps a little too
cagey to be really useful.

a lot of things go through your mind; the important point is to let
them go *through* your mind.  danger lies in dwelling on one thought,
because new data are accumulating while you think.  the longer you
think about something you have seen, the older and less reliable the
information you are thinking about becomes.  i think this is what
brian alluded to.  you must try to become pure perception; see
everything, and rely on automatic responses to what you see.

it is important to focus your attention on your opponent, but not to
the exclusion of your environment, and other possible opponents.

an aside: if you focus your vision too narrowly on your opponent, you
will often find yourself getting "jogai" (out-of-bounds penalty) in
match play.

probably the biggest improvement in my kendo in the last year has been
mental/visual.  it seems like my eyes are open for the first time.  i
now feel as if time is slowing down a little, and i sometimes have a
chance to hit openings as i see them coming.  my ability to *create*
openings hasn't really improved, but i am finding that there are
plenty of good opportunities that my opponents are unwittingly giving
to me.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt)
Subject: Re: novice to master of basics to novice
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 02:02:09 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Bytes: 

 Ah yes, the old story of the 'white belt turns black thru the
rigors of practice".  Charming, but a fairy tale, I'm afraid. The
white/black belt system in Japanese karate was inherited from Judo,
where it had been deliberatly implemented.  Most of the other colors
got started so that people would get promoted often enough to have
their egos massaged.

Osu!

Bud
-- 
Dr. William K Glunt     | Are you ABNORMAL?
************************| Then you are probably better than most people!
U of Kentucky math dept | Are alien space monsters bringing a STARTLING NEW
home phone 606 258 8864 | WORLD?  from _The book of the SubGenius_
From: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Subject: Re: Aikido(Re: Crush and maim (was: How to choose...))
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Reply-To: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Organization: ICS Dept., UC Irvine
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:56:44 GMT

In <4172@ucsbcsl.ucsb.edu> maarrrk@ruapehu.Caltech.Edu ( Mark Alan Erickson) writes:

Many good points...

>It is important to realize that  Aikido is derived from techniques that
>were designed to quickly incapacitate trained, sometimes armed, opponents on
>the battlefield in feudal Japan. In the recent republication of
>Budo, O'Sensei's (Ueshiba Morihei, the founder of Aikido) 1938 how-to,
>there are still many strikes evident.  The techniques in the book aren't
>really different from those taught to us in class today.  What I think
>O'Sensei did when he created Aikido was specifically modify and develop
>techniques in order to give the Aikidoka the option of not damaging the
>attacker.  The potential is still there, however.  In response to
>an attack, an accomplished aikidoka can respond with the attitude that,
>"You've attacked me;  I MAY have to hurt you,"  rather than, "I WILL
>have to hurt you."

I wanted to point out here that every now and then our sensei stops
and points out all the openings for strikes in a given technique.  The
openings are all still there; if you're aware of them, you can
considerably extend the damage done by them.  Even me, and I'm a
little 120lb woman...

--Cindy


--
Cindy Tittle Moore       "For a beginner, there are about 100 stages of the
                          technique.  A talented beginner can expect a 90%
UCI Aikido Club           chance of success for each stage, and therefore a
Crawford Hall             (.9)^100 ~= 0 chance of success in performing the
University of California  technique properly."    -- Chris L. Kuszmaul
Irvine, CA 92717
From: upload@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: The crux of the matter (was: Is not! Is too!)
Date: 14 Apr 1992 18:30:11 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Crunch, Break, Ow!

In article <1992Apr14.160346.934@mcs.anl.gov> sasso@flounder.phy.anl.gov (John F. Sasso) writes:

>However, we would like the respect that we believe any true martial
>art deserves.
>
>I detect a distinct lack of respect for my art in your postings.
>I feel compelled to respond to that, yes.

Quite the contrary.  I have the highest respect for the art.  If the training 
didn't conflict with my T'ai Chi, I'd be studying it myself.

What I'm trying to understand is why my observation that Aikido is designed
to avoid hurting people somehow constitutes disrespect.

Remember the way this all started.  I claimed that T'ai Chi still retained an
essentially battlefield philosophy, whereas Aikido had been developed around 
a self-defense philosophy.  No disrespect was intended or implied.  I'd like
to know why it was inferred.

>I didn't think it was a question, but more of an aside comment.
>Making every Aikido technique 100% harmless would not only devalue the
>art, it would destroy it.  Aikido is a martial art.  It is not a 
>dance; it is not aerobics.

Perhaps I should have been more specific.  If every Aikido technique were 
certified 100% harmless, *but still effective for self-defense*, would it 
devalue the art?  If you could defend yourself without causing any harm, that
would be good, right?  I can't imagine that anyone who believed otherwise would
study Aikido.
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Monday, 13 Apr 1992 15:05:05 EST
From: the Lurker <ACPS7146@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Favorite Sparring Combinations
 <ogorman.703169022@unix1.tcd.ie>

I once saw a tournament where some guy won black belt sparring
using only a reverse punch. Every match he waited for his opponent
to attack, then block, BANG. It was beautiful.

My favorite combination is a low roundhouse kick followed by a hook kick
to the head with the same leg.

                              Jim
From: doug@eng.umd.edu (Douglas N. Cohen)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Ambujitsu
Summary: -=-=-< humor >-=-=-
Keywords: ambujitsu/ambojitsu, st:tng,  -=-=-< humor >-=-=-
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:06:13 GMT
Followup-To: doug:  <doug@eng.umd.edu> : <doug@lpf.umd.edu>
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, College of Engineering

In article <8dvEK=C00iUyQ_FFEW@andrew.cmu.edu> gy0e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gwokang Yang) writes:

>Has anyone heard of the martial art ambujitsu? I just read an article on
>it in a magazine.

	actually, it is the definitive style of martial arts, and will
survive to the 25th century, where riker and father will practice this
deadly art to heal their family riff..... and it's ambojitsu, and they have thisgreat sensitivity weapons form.... {touch bin/smiles/#8}
	always trying to present the facts.....
		as always, i am/at:

	     doug:  <doug@eng.umd.edu> : <doug@lpf.umd.edu>

	-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-< a ghost in the machine >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From: westreic@oc.nps.navy.mil (Eric Westreich)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: TOURNAMENT: MONTEREY, CA
Summary: TOURNAMENT
Keywords: TOURNAMENT
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:36:59 GMT
Organization: Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey CA


SATURDAY   MAY 16, 1992

NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL, MONTEREY, CA

ARMED FORCES DAY MARTIAL ARTS TOURNAMENT

OPEN TO ALL STYLES

TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR: KEEBOM KANG

10:00   FORMS

12:00   WEAPONS KATAS

        JUJITSU DEMO

	KUNG FU DEMO

	KARATE DEMO

1:00    SPARRING

$25 ONE EVENT, $35 TWO EVENTS ($5 DISCOUNT IF REGISTER BEFORE MAY 9, 1992)

FULL SAFETY GEAR REQUIRED: HEADGEAR, MOUTHPIECE, HAND PADS, FOOT PADS, GROIN CUP

FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTACT:

		DAVE DAMPIER: (408) 649-4559
			      383F BERGIN DR.
			      MONTEREY, CA 93940

		ERIC WESTREICH: (408) 372-1821
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kata (was Re: Just what is a BLACK BELT? (good question)
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:23:01 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1992Apr12.193231.10909@cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>In article <1992Apr11.222741.5356@ms.uky.edu>, bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt) writes:
>>
>> Is this Gojushiho (Go ju shi ho---54 steps), or is one I've not heard
>>of?
>>
>>Bud (whipping out the note book and preparing to write...)
>>
>
>	ok, kanji time...is go ju shi ho:
>			
>	go: hard
>	ju:soft
>	shi ho: something to do with shiho nage (4 corner throw)???

Nope...
It's
        go: 5
        ju: 10
        shi: 4
        ho: step

(5*10)+4 steps, if you want to think of it algebraically. The older name
of this kata is Useishi (which also means 54), but I don't know of *any*
style (Okinawan or Japanese) that still uses that name. Honestly, Japanese
*will* drive you crazy...more homonyms than *any* language I have ever
seen (and all the punning opportunities that implies)...

Steve
From: rakoczynskij@gtephx.UUCP (Jurek Rakoczynski)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: have you heard of...
Summary: Police training comments
Date: 9 Apr 92 21:12:08 GMT
Organization: AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, Arizona

In article <IdstE7W00UoJNWDI5s@andrew.cmu.edu>, sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Chan) writes:
> rja@batcomfs.Eng.Sun.COM (Ninja Squirrel Master) writes:
> >     IMHO, cop type training is usually not as good as the detailed
> >     martial arts training upon which it is often based.  And it's expensive
> >     to boot.
> 
> 	I read an article recently about Police Training, and one San
> Soo instructor in CA said that police tactics were often "watered
> down" versions of the original brutal MA techniques. He then made the
> comparison to prescription drugs - if you take less than the
> prescribed dosage, it probably won't work, and it may end up making
> things worse.
I have been on both sides on Police training; learning and teaching.
It is misleading if you think that you need to learn a martial art. 
The training *should* be focused on effectively learning selected
techniques.  Especially since training is of a limited period, and
may be rarely refreshed.

In a learning mode, I learned techniques not usually taught in MA's. 
For example, how do you remove someone from a car whose hands are
locked on the wheel and they refuse to move.  Try it at home!  It's
not as easy as you would think.

Teaching police, especially if it's a short 6-8 week, 1-2 days/week
course, requires you to teach them, and have them practice something,
that they will remember a few months after the course ends.  I've
failed, if I teach them 10 things and they can't do anything well.

If there is some interest in (my opinion) on the subject, I'll
follow-up as time allows.

IMHO.  Some of the military/government branches have learned the error
of their way in trying to teach only a part of some MA, that someone
managed to sell them on.  Training tends to be more focus toward
effective results rather than a particular MA.

sig deleted


-- 
Jurek Rakoczynski, AG Communication Systems, POB 52179, Phoenix, AZ. 85072
UUCP: ncar!noao!asuvax!gtephx!rakoczynskij          Voice: +1 602 581 4867
Inet: gtephx!rakoczynskij@asuvax.eas.asu.edu          Fax: +1 602 582 7111
Inet: /DD.UN=J.RAKOCZYNSKI/O=GTE/PRMD=GTEMAIL/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/@sprint.com
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Hiji-otosh
Date: 16 Apr 92 16:37:07 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <barry.703382387@citr.uq.oz.au> barry@citr.uq.oz.au (Barry Kitson) writes:
>	Let's pick one: hiji-otosh.  Please explain what this is in

	I'll try...  A strike or grab is coming.  You move off the
line to the inside, make contact (you don't exactly grab...) at the
point just above the elbow of the attacking arm with your hands.  By
bringing your hands to your own center and shifting backwards and/or
to the side ( I tend to spin my hips instead of moving linearly but
that's NOT how I'm taught) you can cause the attacker to lose her balance
and fall down.

	It *looks* as though you've grabbed their elbow and dragged them 
down, but that's not how the technique actually works.
From: ibasacc11@spacm1.spac.spc.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Injuries?y
Date: 13 Apr 92 09:42:39 PDT
Organization: Security Pacific Automation Co., LA, CA

In article <willimsa.703164148@unix1.tcd.ie>, willimsa@unix1.tcd.ie (Gavin Williams) writes:
> 
> Basically, the title says it all.
> I have two injuries.  The first one is a recurring groin strain, I 
> have been using Feldene Gel which works wonders, but the problem 
> is that it just keeps coming back a few weeks later.  Right, the 
> second one is that I recently got the cast off my arm from a 
> midshaft break of the ulna, (the forearm bone following from the
> little finger), and I want to get the arm as strong as possible
> as soon as possible.
> 
> Any suggestions or net.wisdom???
> 
Hi,

I had the same exact injury. My break was such that it could not be set 
therefore it was surgically repaired and I have a metal plate in my arm. I 
found it was easier to regain my strength than I thought it would be. The 
hardest part was trying not to rush my comeback. I was on a professional 
rehabilitation program to regain my strength which took about six weeks. Do not 
build up one arm to the exclusion of the other and work on the wrist and 
shoulders too. My rehabilitation consisted of arm and shoulder stretching then 
a workout using light weights (I started with 2.5 lbs. and worked my way to 10 
lbs). Don't forget to strengthen your wrists and shoulders also else they may 
be making up for your lack of strenght in you arm. Your bone will heal at its 
own pace. Good luck.

p.s. I dont read this column often so e-mail if necessary.
From: diebel@ucselx.sdsu.edu (diebel p)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Chi gung workshop in San Diego
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:18:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucselx.1992Apr8.151828.1985
Distribution: ca
Organization: San Diego State University

Kumar Frantzis will be in San Diego May 23 - 24 to teach Dragon 
and Tiger Chi Gung.
   'Dragon and Tiger's gentle moveents are easy to do and suitable for any 
age or fitness level. You will build your Chi and energize the outer energy
lines used in martial arts, healing, bodywork and Tai Chi.'

For Details call (619)-451-3435
From: rja@batcomfs.Eng.Sun.COM (Ninja Squirrel Master)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: have you heard of...
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:26:14 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs

In article <1992Apr9.154223.28464@colorado.edu> ejh@khonshu.colorado.edu (Edward J. Hartnett) writes:
>
>	Police, however, are under considerably more constraints
>moraly than a private person, IMHO. They can't just poke someone's
>eyes out in a fight, because they are expected to be able to handle
>things a little better. In other words, they have to be able to
>physically coerce people, whereas I can just cripple them and walk
>away. I don't have to touch an agressive drunk unless attacked, but a
>cop might have to be able to arrest or lead him away. If attacked, I
>can be pretty severe in my defense, but a cop can't just walk up to
>the guy and club him in the face, even if he is being violent (a la
>Rodney King).

    That is true, but it wouldn't prevent cops from becoming masters of 
    Aikido or JuJitsu.  What does keep most cops from doing that, or learning
    any significant martial arts, or even from shooting regularly, is that
    most police don't look at the tools of their trade with much personal
    interest.  Martial artists or firearms trainers I've spoken to, who
    have trained police, uniformly stated that the average police officer
    isn't going go to a dojo and work out regularly, after his job of
    dealing with people all day.  Even if he does, the odds of him practicing
    his baton, handcuffing, or physical restraint skills are low.  If anything
    he'll be running or lifting weights.

>	Personally, I think that they would be better off learning the
>full range of martial arts, and take supplemental courses on
>less-than-devistating attacks and grabs.

    Just don't learn and try to use the infamous X block.
--
    Robert Allen, rja@sun.com		DISCLAIMER: I said it, not my company.

    "Traditionalists often study what is taught, not what there is to create."
			     - Ed Parker, Grandmaster, American Kenpo.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Subject: Re: Aikido teaching styles
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 18:39:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.214545.23522@techbook.com>, gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:


>...through three stages: (1) rock --based on a thorough grounding of the
>physical basics; (2) liquid -- much later, well up into the yodansha
>ranks; and finally (3) gas -- the ethereal, seemingly effortless aikido
>seen in very advanced students.  His criticism was that too many
>teachers attempted to take their students directly to (3) without going
>through the previous stages...

i think that pretty much says it all...thanks

>--Jeff Frane
>  Multnomah Aikikai

mukund acharya
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt)
Subject: Re: novice to master of basics to novice
    <wdsOkXS00iU44GIZw5@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 19:33:14 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Bytes: 

In article <wdsOkXS00iU44GIZw5@andrew.cmu.edu> Stephen Chan <sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>lampij@brandonu.ca writes:
>>         Those black belts who train
>>         regularly are easily seen by the degree of wear of their belts.
>
>	Yeah, everyone says this, so the obvious course of action is
>to take your fresh new black belt and run the orbital sander on it.
>	I saw a 14-15 year old kid who's black belt was uniformly worn
>down to the white. The pattern of wear that I've seen on old black
>belts is that the area around the obi is worn out a LOT and the rest
>of the belt is usually much less worn - more so on the edges than in
>the center.


 Heh. I've been wearing the same belt for 13 years now, and it's just
now starting to show signs of wear.  Mostly on the edges near where
the knot is tied.

Bud
-- 
Dr. William K Glunt     | Are you ABNORMAL?
************************| Then you are probably better than most people!
U of Kentucky math dept | Are alien space monsters bringing a STARTLING NEW
home phone 606 258 8864 | WORLD?  from _The book of the SubGenius_
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: sasso@flounder.phy.anl.gov (John F. Sasso)
Subject: Re: Meaning???
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:16:56 GMT

In article <1992Apr4.214555.28668@u.washington.edu> ngqtuan@milton.u.washington.edu (Tuan Nguyen) writes:
>Last night, when we were in the sitting position doing sort of like meditation
>before MA class, it suddenly occured to me that I don't know why we are doing
>what we usually do.  I mean we have to sit down on our feet & rest our hands
>on the knees with palm facing up, back straight ..., is there any purpose on  
>this position?  Why don't we just stand up to do it? or why do we have to face
>the palms up with the thumb slightly touch the middle finger? ...
>
>I would appreciate for any light upon this.
>

What martial art is this?  In the Japanese arts, one sits in Seisa 
(Help! spelling), relaxed with good posture.  It is a position in 
which to control your breathing and find your center, in preparation
for class.

							JFS



-- 
"Elvis is Ted, and Ted is the False Bob," the Elvis Lectures
"But who is Ted?  Ted is the Shaman to the Stars, the Master of MauMau,
and a general SwellGuy."  the Book of False Bobs
"Points are bad. Winning is bad. The only way to win is to lose."BookofMauMau
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Subject: have you heard of...
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 14:42:49 GMT

...bruce siddow (not too sure how is last name is spelt siddow, siddo, siddlow?)

he teaches seminars mainly...knife defense, pressure points kind of thing.


-m.a.