HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mgresham@artsnet.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 16 Oct 92 22:49:47 GMT
Organization: ARTSNET,  Atlanta (Norcross) Georgia

Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:

> 
> Verdi's rivals were far more numerous and talented than those that
> stand in Glass' way. If Glass can compose really masterful stuff then
> the opera lovers will want to see it and it will be incorporated. Can
> you compare the Voyage to Tosca, La Boheme, or Turandot? When you can
> then we'll have modern opera. 

I can certainly compare Floyd's "Of Mice and Men", "Susannah",
"Willie Stark", "The Crucible", and "The Passion of Jonathan
Wade" (recent revised version) with those operas.
  You should also be on the lookout for the music of Dominick
Argento -- both staged and unstaged works.  One example of his
very worthy of note: "A Masque of Angels".
  There is also the future promise of Stephen Paulus, who has
already written three operas, including "The Postman Only Rings Twice",
and in great demand as a composer.
  As for your use of the word "modern"...'fraid we've already
passed that point.  Even if we only had Britten's works, we'd
have worthy "modern opera."
  Except for their general difficulty of staging, there's Hindemith's
operas, particularly "Mathis" -- which, though nigh impossible
to stage at points, would be splendid ON FILM  (if REALLY produced
FOR film, and not by some three-camera set-up at a live performance).
  I also must mention Marc Blitzstein's "Regina", which I saw a number of
years back in Atlanta, but which was included in this year's
New York City Opera schedule, I believe.
(or last year's, maybe...time warps here while I work).
  Yes, we have modern opera AND contemporary opera of great value.
So we DON'T need people like Anrew Lloyd Webber imagining that
he's 'striving for' something no one else is doing.  Baloney.
Let him write musicals -- it's where his talents and success lie.
And the 'musical' genre needs him...without his efforts there, it
would have been extinct by now.

--Mark Gresham
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: DEBATE for those who are interested
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:55:08 GMT
 <1992Oct14.123244.22276@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> 
 <1992Oct15.030912.25746@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1992Oct15.060242.16764@Princeton.EDU>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu


Roger, I keep answering to people and every time I turn on this network
my thead is somewhere else!!

Anyway, in Re: ALW, allow me to clarify, His music is Crap (I've been
known to listen to Erasure too) but his intentions are good. If he had
any real talent he would be able to bring quality music to a lot of
people considering his sold-out audiences (you have to admit, more
people have seen Cats than Aknaten) He has a great position in music
too bad he has no clue how to ennoble AND entertain.
If only there was someone who could do BOTH?!!?!!?!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: swartz@fraser.sfu.ca (Norman Swartz)
Subject: Re: CD mail order in Canada
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:39:42 GMT


You might want to try
     Musical Heritage Society of Canada
     1915, Fortin Blvd., Suite 101
     Chomedey, Laval
     Quebec   H7S 1P2


 u
From: mjo@castle.ed.ac.uk (Martyn J O Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Name for Renaissance Vocal Octet...???
Date: 7 Oct 92 11:43:49 GMT
Organization: Organization?

I am starting up a renaissance octet to sing various works of
Renaissance/Early Baroque period.......I need a name (NOT Renaissance
singers since this exists already in Edinburgh (here).

Have thought of the name Camerata (or Camerata Octet), but unsure about
the intent of these people!!!!

Any ideas/explanations willingly taken (email mjoc@uk.ac.ed.castle)

Thanx.

Martyn

(Sorry if more than one of these has appeared, I managed to mess up the
first posting!)

-- 
==============================================================================
I Have, even if I do say so myself, the BEST CHOCOLATE ICE-CREAM recipe in the 
world...Mail mjoc@uk.ac.ed with your request...no special equipment reqd.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Bach's sixth cello suite.  What happened?
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 20:19:22 GMT

In article <RLK.92Oct10140414@underprize.think.com> rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:
>In article <1992Oct10.164252.12013@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>   One observation: the weird one in a set of six or 12 is usually placed last
>   in 18th C music.  You can see this again and again: the 6th B'burg, almost
>   certainly not *composed* last, is a sort of concerto-upside-down-cake,
>   with accompaniment instruments soloing, solo instruments accompanying, 
>   rtirnellos behaving like solos and vice versa.

>While I agree that the viola was traditionally an accompaniment
>instrument at the time, the rest of the instrumentation in that concerto
>doesn't strike me as soloistic when played in ensemble.

The viola da gamba had aristocratic associations in Bach's time, though,
and was generally considered a solo instrument (though it was also used
for continuo playing on occasion).  And since the violas are the soloists,
the viols the accompaniment most of the time (see, esp., the first mvt.),
the "world is turned upside down."

Roger
From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:47:51 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department

In article <1992Oct16.025516.2821@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>with the argument that after Einstein no other opera has
>>been totally new or has shown signs of dramatic new perceptions or
>>skill. 

>Again, who elected you judge?  _Einstein_, like it or not, was
>more innovative than any ten other operas of the previous decades,
>and if Glass hasn't repeated his success, he's certainly gone a long
>way toward consilidating it, refining some of his techniques, etc.  

Absolutely! The sheer beauty of _Satyagraha_ shows the degree to
which Glass has refined his style. To suggest that after adopting
such a radical new set of techniques (radical for opera anyway!)
where could glass go but in the direction of refinement and
consolidation? If he made another stylistic leap beyond _Einstein_
his works would be considered not only Martian (as they've been
called) but extragallactic. _Then_ his work would be considered
wacko music! To mind mind, the progress in Glass' operas has been
quite steady.


Gregg

-- 
Gregg Jaeger    (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu)          VOTE PEROT  VOTE PEROT       
If you think the Republicans screwed up the country, can you afford to
see what the Democrats will do?!   ->BEWARE OF SLICK-WILLY CLINTON!!<-
From: rwd4f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rob Dobson)
Subject: Pricey Cds
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:38:41 GMT


i havent bought one of the damn things in almost a year, except as gifts.
'course, i work at a music library, so all the classical cds i would want
to hear are bought and paid for by someone else.

we get them at a discount, though. comes with buying $1000s worth every 
year, and negotiating with the retailer.

-rob
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 16 Oct 92 18:59:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: dartvax.1992Oct16.185917.10816
 <1992Oct16.025516.2821@Princeton.EDU> 
 <1992Oct16.035036.7639@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1992Oct16.044701.18994@Princeton.EDU>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Oct16.044701.18994@Princeton.EDU>
roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

> >Anyway I didn't mean to impugn changes of style. Deliberate style
> >change itself is not something bad IF its for purely artistic reasons
> >however if its because the first style gets bad press...
> 
> Yes, go on...  (see Die Feen, das Liebesverbot, Rienzi, etc.)

Curiously you picked three of his earliest works. Do you honestly think
That Wagner was headed in the direction of Die Feen and Liebesverbot
and popular opinion changed his mind. Funny I never thought popular
opinion held much weight with Wagner (Consider his obstinance for the
Paris Tannhauser)

[Wagner's] reading of Schopenhauer and the consequent reworking of his
entire
philosophy of drama.

Since when did this qualify as changing because of bad press?
>I'd say that the change after the Big Three of the 50's was more than
>just one more step in a steady evolution.  Moving toward grand opera
>was definitely a decision Verdi made in the choice of his libretti,
>etc.

I don't know quite what you mean. Do mean Grand opera in terms of plot
and spectacle? or in type of music. Verdi's music in Aida does not show
a deliberate conscious attempt to change his style of composition. If
you would look after the "Big Three" you will also see Un Ballo, Simon,
etc. along with the Grand operas. Also you have to take in to account
the commisions had a lot to do with the type of opera composed. For
example writing Music for the Paris Opera Had to include a sense of
spectacle. The Khedive probably wouldn't have been too happy with an
intimate drama. Verdi composed both kinds of opera never abandoning one
because it wouldn't sell. DIdn't He end up with two very "personal"
operas?

>Seriously--since you're still trying to hang this around Glass's neck,
>perhaps you could provide us with a shred of evidence.  It's not as 
>though we hadn't asked.

>Roger

Besides bad reviews, bored concertgoers, talking to talented musicians
and listening to his music and stating that Einstein was more
revolutionary than Aknaten because of Glass's unique musical sense came
out far more in the former (Reminiscent of Leoncavallo?) I don't know
what else you want? Perhaps if I made blind positive comments I
wouldn't be accused of this.

P.S. Notice that most people who defend Glass always start out saying
"I am  not a Glass fan but...?"
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel)
Subject: Re: Tallis Scholars
Organization: Visual
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 16:29:46 GMT

Paul at Berkley writes:  

>    After hearing the discussions on Tallis Scholars' new album, Brumel's 
>"earthquake mass," I still have one quetion in mind.  Should I buy the CD or 
>not???  I think Rob said that the 12-part counterpoint sounded really good.
>But then someone else also suggested that this piece is quite boring.  
>Well, whom should I listen to???  I only have one CD from Tallis Scholars' 
>collections, L'homme arme Masses by Josquin, And I too think that 
>The Tallis Scholars is one of the best vocal groups that I have heard so far.
>Although their sound quality was great on that album, I thought that the music
>they sang was quite boring.

Since I don't know Josquin's music, I unfortunately cannot compare his
style to Brumel's as heard on the Earthquake CD.  

My favorite early-music CD is the Cardoso Requiem.  Cardoso was a 
Porteguese composer, I believe a contemporary or near-follow-up to 
Palestrina.  (I'm really groping here, though, since I don't have the CD
handy.)  This music is filled with bewitching harmonies, and has an 
aching, yearning quality to it.  I'm amazed this composer isn't better
known.

The Brumel is quite different.  It's more "straight" in it's counterpoint.
I'm not very good at describing music styles in prose, though, so you'll
have to forgive me.  :-(  I liked the "Lamentations" on the same disc a
little more than the Earthquake Mass.  

I'm sure this doesn't do much to answer your question above, though.
Sorry. 

As for the price of the Brumel, I just got mine at Tower and it was on
sale for $13.99.  Paul, if you're in the Mountain View area anytime soon
you should stop into the Tower there and see if the sale price is still
in effect.  Tower puts miscellaneous releases on sale, often in conjunction
with a write-up in their "Pulse" magazine.  Maybe that's why this Tallis
Scholars CD was on sale.

Rob
From: young7905@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: rec.music.classical
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:39:38 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

     IS THERE ANYBODY WHO CAN GIVE ME SOME INSIGHT INTO THE GEORGE CRUMB PIECE
BLACK ANGELS. I HEARD IT FOR THE FIRST TIME TONIGHT, PERFORMED BY THE KRONOS
QUARTET. ANYTHING ABOUT THE PROGRAM AT ALL PLEASE SEND TO ME.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Barenboim's new Bruckner cycle
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 23:28:41 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.200815.26796@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>In article <92288.091450RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET> Robert Haskins <RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET> writes:
>[...]
>>And I'm curious, Deryck -- what are the special hurdles in Symphony No. 6?
>>I know this work some, but it doesn't seem to present any really thorny problem
>>s.  And what's a good recording to get?
>
>Well, it's not so much that there *are* special hurdles, it just seems
>that few people manage to present a convincing coherent reading of the
>work. Perhaps it's the fact of its relatively small and concise nature
>coming in between the larger 5th and 7th. My favourite performance bar
>none is the PO/Klemperer (~1965) on mid-price EMI.
>
>Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
>

My favorite as well.  But Keilberth on Teldec is special, and possesses
the most beautiful sound of any Bruckner recording I've heard.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: reply to Mark Gresham
From: Marco Simionato <simion@iveuncc.unive.it>
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:29:56 +0100
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Venezia (Italy)
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9X-XXDate: Tue, 13 Oct 92 18:36:14 GMTLines: 43

Sorry for sending this through the list, but I cannot find any other
way to get this to Mark Gresham.



========================================================================
34
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 09:36:45 EDT
From: <2SMTP@GITVM1.GATECH.EDU>
To: <SIMION@IVEUNCC.BITNET>
Subject: Undeliverable Mail
 
GITVM1.GATECH.EDU unable to deliver following mail to recipient(s):
    <mgresham@gatech.edu>
GITVM1.GATECH.EDU received negative reply:
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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 92 14:25:06 SET
From:         Marco Simionato <SIMION%IVEUNCC.bitnet@GITVM1.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:      professional contacts
To:           mgresham@gatech.edu
X-Acknowledge-To: <SIMION@IVEUNCC>
 
I hope this one gets to you, I tried some time ago to reply to a
message of yours but I only got bounced mails.
Well, perhaps I could get this guide myself if you could supply
publisher, ordering info, and so on.
Secondly, what kind of info would you like about musical activities
in Italy? I think I could hardly get you a complete listing of
initiatives but, provided email works, I could keep you informed
about the activities you are most interested each time they are
announced.
 
Marco Simionato
From: rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Rob Brooks)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The Abuse of Classical Music
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:04:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: cc.J8PRBBZ3
Organization: Swarthmore College

In article <Oct12.024350.88033@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben) writes:
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has yet compiled a short list of the most abused
> pieces of classical music, i.e. music used in stupid commercials, etc...
> 
> Personally, I can't think of anything that gets picked on as badly as "The Ride
> of the Valkyries" from Wagner's Die Walkure.
> 
_______________________________________________________________________________
> 			     "The noble soul has reverence for itself."
>  Michael Hurben                                                  -Nietzsche
>  Dept. of Physics         "Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."
>  Colorado State University                                       -Quayle
>  hurben@lamar.colostate.edu  "See how I love to clean filthy catboxes!"
> 								   -Hoek
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> 
>

In first place has to be Eine Kleine Nachtmusik followed closely by
Strauss' Blue Danube Waltz.  Don't forget the Pachelbel Canon and the "Ode
to Joy" chorus from Beethoven's 9th.  Oh, and then there's United(?)'s
mutilation of Rhapsody in Blue on all their commercials.  It's a shame that
so much wonderful music has become almost trite because of its abuse on TV
and radio.

Rob
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:16:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: dartvax.1992Oct15.201601.12052
 <1biiccINNcam@calvin.usc.edu> 
 <1992Oct15.041405.29046@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1992Oct15.061918.19057@Princeton.EDU>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Oct15.061918.19057@Princeton.EDU>
roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

> >had a career spanning 60 years. He was rejected from the conservatory
> >at 18 and had to be funded while he took on a private tutor. His wife
> >and two children died when he was composing one of his operas but he
> >still continued. 
> 
> Bet he never drove a cab to support himself the way Phil Glass used to.

I'd say having your whole family die in two months is a little more
traumatic than driving a cab (which do you think Glass would prefer?)

>Right.  I wonder what opera Stiffelio was an improvement on... not to 
>mention its reworking as Alzira...Verdi's early years were decidedly
>up-and-down in quality as well.  In with Nabucco and MacBeth there
>are some decidely lesser efforts.

>The Met doesn't do them.

I said they were a steady progression not individual masterpieces

If the Met was sure it could sell-out Glass' works then we all know
they would put them on in an instant (Economics dictates that) However
even after premiering this work (or for that matter Versailles) it
knows enough people won't go to see them. Its not the Met's fault its
the opera goers "fault"
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: DEBATE for those who are interested
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:20:55 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

Well I seem to have stirred up great controversy with my attacks on
Glass so in an effort to extend the topic I just would like to say that
Andrew Loyd-Weber has done more to bring opera (albeit in a highly
corrupted version) to the mass audience than Glass or his horde of
disciples. ALW is on the right track of popular music, now if one can
just find a more talented composer we may have found the solution: Any
opinions?
From: bellmann@qut.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Question about Penderecki's 2nd Symphony
Date: 9 Oct 92 09:04:25 EST
Organization: Queensland University of Technology

   My apologies to those who read this for a second time. I made that stupid
typo on the title and I had only the option of losing the text or release it
with the DIR/ALL in the middle of a word...

   I was in Houston at the beginning of 1981 (I remember reading in the
newspapers about the death of both Barber and Hanson)...Well, at about the
same time Penderecki visited Houston. He gave a lecture at the University
and conducted the Houston Symphony in a concert of his works. My work prevented
me to attend the concert. I planned to tape it from tha KLEF but we were held
until later than usual. I got home too late for the beginning of his recently
completed Second Symphony. I was so pissed off that just started the cassette
I happened to have on the deck at the moment. Consequently, the recording of
the Symphony lacked not only the beginning but also the ending, as the tape ran
out. 
   Years later I got the Pavane recording of it, which is conducted by one
Kasprzyk. I tried to convince myself that it was a good rendition but every
time I compare it to the excerpt I still keep I get mad. Kasprzyk's version
is gutless no matter how loud I play it, whereas the emotional intensity in
Penderecki's own is overwhelming.
   Now, only once I've seen an advertisement of a recording of the work by
Penderecki. It was in an issue of Fanfare from the '86, and it was just one
of the soon-to-arrive releases from an imported record shop whose name I
forgot. I wrote to them at the time and they didn't reply.
   The question is: Does anybody know of the existence of such recording,
whether in CD or LP? Does anybody have it? I love the work, despite the
intrusion of Stille Nacht...

Hector
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Opera in the vernacular
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:50:34 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <1992Oct14.170008.10589@bsu-ucs.uucp>, 00hfstahlke@bsu-ucs.uucp writes:
> It gets hard enough sometimes in English.  I've seen conductors struggle with
> the line "Who is this king of glory" from the chorus "Lift up your heads" in
> Handel's Messiah.  They think that the "this" must be stressed and substitute
> "the" for it, changing the meaning considerably.  This results from failing to
> realize that English also has an unstressed "this" whose use differs slightly
> from the use of the stressed "this."  

On the other hand the problems with Messiah could be because Handel couldn't
speak English. For an example of this, get a reasonably precisely Urtext  
edition and look at "The trumpet shall sound". Handel set the word
"incorruptible" so that the accent falls on the fourth syllable, making it
almost unsingable and pretty risible.
-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   Remember what happened to the dinosaurs!
wilcox@maths.oxford.ac.uk  |    I did---and look what happened to me.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank)
Subject: Mindless Glassbashing (was Glass meets Clive Barker response)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 20:46:13 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.035036.7639@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:

>Anyway I didn't mean to impugn changes of style. Deliberate style
>change itself is not something bad IF its for purely artistic reasons
>however if its because the first style gets bad press...

It all makes sense now--the reason why Glass has moved away from 
hardcore minimalism is that Einstein and Akhnaten were (and still 
are) so badly received by the entire critical community!  Anyone else
out there think this guy could use a dose of reality?
  
--j.e.f.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: the abuse of classical music
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:29:24 GMT

In article <910394f.1.719176348@ace.acadiau.ca> 910394f@ace.acadiau.ca (JAMES LEON FALCONE) writes:
>Yeah, The Carmina Burana thing is pretty bad, but we can't forget what Elvis 
>did to Strauss!
>JAMIE

Elvis as Herod?  Different, but I think I like it.



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical