HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism and abortion (was Re: Speciesism)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 10:22:20 GMT

todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law) writes:

g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:

>>2.  There is more involved in the abortion question than right to life, there
>>	is also the question of the rights of the pregnant woman.
>                                    ~~~~~~
>"rights" should read "convenience".

	Bullshit.  Read your United States Constitution, and pay
special attention to the 9th, 10th,  and 14th amendments.  Unless
specifically stated as a concern of the Federal government, all
other rights exist to the states or to the people.  The trouble
is that you need to get the Supreme Court to agree that a right
to abort actually exists.  I suggest the Right to Life covers this,
but we may not like the interpretation by the Court.

	In any event, it will be a very tough and expensive case
to pursue, hence many similar laws are not contested.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de
Subject: Re: Moving to Canada
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:11:56 GMT

In article <BzJHnG.14o@mach1.wlu.ca>, sweaver3@mach1.wlu.ca (scott weaver 9209 U) writes:
> godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de wrote:
> : - and I despise the Germans.
> Funny how I'm not surprised by this...
> : 
> : What's so boring about it?  The people.
> : 
> : 
> Then why bother reading this newsgroups contributed to mainly by Canadian
> PEOPLE, whom you find so boring?
> And please don't bother to directly reply to this question, your response
> just might be too exciting for me to handle...

Why ask the question if you don't want me to reply to it?

Anyway the answer is that it amuses me to irritate Canadians.

Laurence

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,talk.abortion
From: gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Followup-To: talk.abortion
Organization: University of Virginia Health Sciences Center
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 04:52:38 GMT

In article <TODD.92Dec18123853@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp> todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp writes:

}I want to reply to this.

And I want to take this time to speak for the "unborn."  Uh, Todd, they
are rather embarassed by you and wish you'd quit.

}Another thought experiment:

}You are a five-month old fetus.  You are semiconcious in the womb. 

But you can't think.  Oh well, end of experiment.  The remainder of
Todd's pure speculation deleted.

--
       hang gliding mailing list: hang-gliding-request@virginia.edu 
     Galen Hekhuis  UVa Health Sci Ctr (804)982-1646 gjh@virginia.edu
                  Illiterate?  Write for FREE help...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui)
Subject: Re: Negative Income Tax (Was: Social programs)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 23:09:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.170313.9431@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>Universality as it has been come to be known in Canada means paying
>millionaires government pensions and family allowance cheques.  It
>means less money is available for the needy.

It intrigues me to hear that from you, when on the other hand you
also (from my memory ...) oppose a progessive income tax rate.

-- 
Michael MY Hui  ~{~}  myhui@bnr.ca  Ottawa Canada
From: warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Death of Canada (Was: Death of America)
Date: 14 Dec 92 09:55:16 GMT
	<1992Dec13.202846.24536@athena.mit.edu>
	<1992Dec13.213039.11050@news.columbia.edu>
	<1992Dec14.065852.3092@news.columbia.edu>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne---Laboratoire de
	Teleinformatique
In-reply-to: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu's message of 14 Dec 92 06:58:52 GMT

Refering to a discussion in talk.politics.misc, our New York correspondant,
Gary L Dare, wrote parenthetically:
> (it's not often one finds a Canadian and devout libertarian ...)

Except on USENET, which is why I take all discussions in can.* and
soc.culture.canada with a large grain of salt.  They certainly are not
representative of the country that I know.
--
Ken Warkentyne - warkent@ltisun.epfl.ch
                 Laboratoire de Teleinformatique, EPFL, Suisse.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:20:03 GMT

In article <schuck.724868803@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>Out of the womb it will survive fine with the normal amount of care.
>And I repeat, there is *no* physical differences between the baby.
>
I have to agree with Bruce that 2 hours is not going to make a big
difference in the ability of the baby to survive.

OTOH how common is it to get an abortion 1 hour before birth?  What
would be the point?
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
From: hammoud@cicb.fr (Mustapha Hammoud)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Looking for postdoc
Date: 13 Dec 92 19:34:57 GMT
Organization: CICB - Universite' de Rennes I - FR


I am looking for an interdisciplinary research training on numerical method
modelling microstrip antennas at any University of Quebec-Canada. 
I need specially an application for postdoctoral fellowship and graduate 
research assistantship. I have the doctorat degree (PHD equivqlent) from
the university of Rennes 1 speciality: Telecommunications.
My goals are to developp a numerical code to study patch antennas.
Thank you for writing me on :

M. Hammoud
Universite de Rennes 1
Labo. Antennes et Reseaux large bande
avenue du general Leclerc
35042 Rennes cedex
France


Thank you very much
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: merce@xenitec.on.ca (Jim Mercer)
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism and abortion (was Re: Speciesism)
Organization: XeniTec Consulting, Kitchener, Ontario, CANADA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:17:53 GMT

>From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
>       Bullshit.  Read your United States Constitution, and pay
>special attention to the 9th, 10th,  and 14th amendments.
>
> ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.

sorry, couldn't resist a little cut and paste.  8^)

-- 
[ Jim Mercer   Reptilian Research  merce@iguana.reptiles.org  +1 519 893-6085 ]
[             I don't want to work for a company that has a CIO.              ]
[              Disclaimer! I don't need no stinking Disclaimer!               ]
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism and abortion (was Re: Speciesism)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 20:10:43 GMT

In article <TODD.92Dec15140859@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp> todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec14.210217.5066@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>
>>2.  There is more involved in the abortion question than right to life, there
>>	is also the question of the rights of the pregnant woman.
>                                    ~~~~~~
>"rights" should read "convenience".

Todd, if you believe an unwanted pregnancy to be a mere "inconvenience",
then I'd say you're totally unqualified to discuss this issue . . .

       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:23:11 EST
From: Andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: are gay marriages legal in Canada?
Distribution: na

In article <1992Dec15.201441.21272@b15.ingr.com>, dvr@doofus.b15.ingr.com
(Village Idiot) says:
>
>Hi All,
>
>The subject says it all.  Just curious!

No and according to Justice Minister Kim Campbell's recent announcement about
changes to the human rights code to include gays and lesbians, there is no
plan to allow gay marriages in law or common law, though spousal benefits are
encouraged. However, a gay couple in Ottawa is currently challenging the
marriage laws in court under the Charter of Rights and they may well succeed.


>--
>******************************************************************************
>*
>
>Doug Roberts                             E-mail: dvr@doofus.b15.ingr.com
>Senior System Engineer
>Federal Systems Division                 Phone: 205-730-1760
>Intergraph Corporation
>Mail Stop IW1510                         FAX: 205-730-6956
>Huntsville, AL  35894-0001
>
>******************************************************************************
>*
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:9555 can.politics:10960 talk.abortion:52511 talk.politics.animals:10466
From: delorme@garnet.berkeley.edu (Lisa DeLorme)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:22:11 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

>
>>#2) The fetus ABSOLUTELY makes claims on it's mother.  During the first
>>#3 months of development, the change in hormones causes the mother's
>>#breasts to swell (painfully, I might add).  It causes, over 50% of the
>>#time, severe nausea and vomiting.  It causes fatigue beyond belief.
>>#(I personally found that less than 20 hours sleep a day was
>>#insufficient).
>
>True. Nearly all of this goes away, though...
>

I just love this response "it goes away after awhile". So, suppose I
kidnapped one of you men for 4-5 months, and fed you some toxic
substance that caused all kinds of painful symptoms, but may
or may not, leave permanant physical afflictions. I'm sure that at my trial,
the response "but all his painful symptoms went away when the medicine
was stopped, and there was no permanent disfigurement" would not be
enough to keep me out of jail. I couldn't argue that pain and disfigurement
were acceptable because they only lasted a "mere" 8 or 9 months. If I force
it on you it is unacceptable period, for 1 day or 1,000 days.

Yes, it is an inane example. In response to an innane way of arguing (I
am not calling the argue-er inane, just the statement). It suggests it
that pregnant women don't have the same right to avoid pain that all
other humans have, after all the pain will go away when they return to
normal human status again.


-- 
Lisa DeLorme                            
delorme@garnet.berkeley.edu           
DOD #363/ 80 KZ250, (mouse bike), 82 KZ440
                    Hey, I'm finally an acronym: DBNI  (Double bike, no income)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: mbrownel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Mark Brownell)
Subject: Testing 1, 2, ...
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Distribution: can
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:53:38 GMT


Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: greenway@esparc30.webo.dg.com (RSG)
Subject: Need information on Nova Scotia
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 18:04:09 GMT
Organization: Data General Corp.

I'm looking for information on Glace Bay, Nova Scotia.  I've never been
there, but I may be getting some property in that area.  If someone has first-hand
knowledge of the area, could you please email me.  Thanks.

Bob Greenway - DGC  Westboro, MA
greenway@esparc30.webo.dg.com
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 04:36:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.142748.6248@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>In article <schuck.724638431@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>>Just for thought:
>>
>>In Canada, if you kill a baby 1 hour *before *it's born, and the 
>>mother approves, it's called an abortion.
>
>Bullshit - that just doesn't happen.  Try using real arguments instead
>of ludicrous strawmen, if you want to be taken seriously.

Actually, thinking this over, I remembered an example from maybe 25
years ago (back when abortion was still legally an abominable crime).

Not far from my home town (we're talking small town, here!), a pregnant
woman, in the final stages of pregnancy, was diagnosed as carrying a
hypercephalic child - literally, big-headed.  The child could not
survive, and the birth would have killed the mother.  (Caesarians, in
those days, were much more drastic procedures than now.)  The doctors
chose to abort - to cut up the child within the womb and extract it
piece by piece.

This does match your "kill a baby 1 hour before it's born" example.  It
also matches anyone's definition of extreme health risk to the mother.
Still, there were people, back then, who condemned the operation - the
mother, they said, should simply have faced the consequences of her
actions.

Apply this to today's situation.  Some people still oppose ANY abortion,
even in cases like the above.  Some people oppose abortion, except for
health reasons.  To those people, I ask:  who is qualified to decide
when the health reasons are sufficient to justify an abortion?  Are you
really prepared to judge for yourself how much a woman should face?  Are
you really prepared to tell that woman that *you* don't think the
possible consequences are enough, that she should just "face the
consequences of her actions"?

I'm not ready to do that.  Thus, I am pro-choice.

       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 16:40:06 GMT


Based on that "detailed" post on the dangers and evils of pregnancy,
am I to infer that it should be presumed that giving birth is an
extreme danger to women and should be outlawed?

It is unfortunate that pregnancy is a difficult experience; there are
not at this time any alternative methods of human gestation to prevent
such difficulty.  And I'm sure that there would be some heavy outcry
against such "alternative methods" if they ever do come.

Based on the listing of difficulties, and the seemingly high
expectation of death or other personally destructive events, it's
surprising that the world population ever got up to the level it's at.
There certainly should be more deaths in childbirth in North America
than I've heard of; I've known quite a lot of mothers over the years.
None of them ever died in childbirth.

-- 
Christopher Browne                |     PGP 2.0 key available
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca           |===================================
University of Ottawa              |  The Personal Computer:  Colt 45
Master of System Science Program  |  of the Information Frontier
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,talk.abortion
From: todd@athena.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Reply-To: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
Organization: Nagoya Institute of Technology, Nagoya ,Japan.
	<TODD.92Dec18123853@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp>
	<1992Dec18.164448.13561@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 06:36:12 GMT


In article <1992Dec18.164448.13561@nas.nasa.gov> dking@raul.nas.nasa.gov (Dan King) writes:

>Hard to argue with pro-lifers who are so willing to supply women
>with real problems such arguments.  Have you by any chance ever 
>talked to a woman facing an un-wanted pregnancy Todd?

Yes, my mom.


Todd

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nagoya Institute of Technology,
Itoh Laboratory,			"Be excellent to each other."
todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:9408 can.politics:10799
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: The Clinton Program
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:34:41 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department

It seems Mulroney may be right...

The Clinton stimulus is going to be no larger than $60 billion...
and probably a lot less.

...his economic conference is recommending, even with all his
basically "liberal" economists stimuli from nothing to $60 billion
at the most, with most advocating only about $30 billion.

If you compare the sizes of the economy, the Canadian equivalent
of that is about $3 billion, which is essential in the range
the action Mulroney and Mazankowski have taken...

...none of the McLaughlin-Chretien nonsense about going on a 
borrowing and spending binge.

Also, the emphasis is going to be on deficit reduction in the
medium term...which means Clinton wants to make significant
inroads against the deficit in the second half of his first
term.  The capital gains tax cut on long held assets, and
health care reform, the education and training initiatives,
and all the Canadian-like social programs all are going to
have to be undertaken in the context of this rather austere
fiscal framework.

Turns out that Clinton is a Mulroneyish Red Tory on fiscal policy.

And Clinton is not likely to raise taxes next year...Mulroney
is not going to raise taxes next spring...

Bob Rae and Pink Floyd are going to sock it to Ontarians on the
tax front.

It will make it awfully hard for the NDP to campaign on providing
a fiscal stimulus when the Ontario NDP decides to go on a taxing
binge in the spring.

Gerald
From: maj@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Moving to Canada
Date: 19 Dec 92 20:44:13 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1gth1uINNmju@golem.wcc.govt.nz>, francis_g@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
> I would like to explore my options regarding moving to
> Canada and am wondering if this is the right group to 
> discuss the issues.  New Zealand is a really nice place
> but I want my kids to get a broader out look on life
> by moving to another country.
>  
> Gary

I know what you mean! But it is also possible to give your kids
a broader outlook by getting them into an exchange program. Make
sure that the move is right for _you_ as well as the children.
-- 
Murray A. Jorgensen [ maj@waikato.ac.nz ]    University of Waikato
Department of Mathematics and Statistics     Hamilton, New Zealand      
__________________________________________________________________
'Tis the song of the Jubjub! the proof is complete,
if only I've stated it thrice.'
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: kpicott@alias.com (Socrates)
Subject: Re: Negative Income Tax (Was: Social programs)
Organization: Alias Research, Inc., Toronto ON Canada
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:06:47 GMT

In <1992Dec15.202507.29258@csi.uottawa.ca> cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) writes:

>.. a whole bunch of reasonable arguments
>.. followed by

>The way that they COULD be factored in would be if one's use of them
>was "charged" onto your tax return.  i.e.: "Went to see the doctor?
>Add $150 to taxable income!"  "3 Children in school - Add $7500 to
>taxable income!"  I don't think that people would stand for this idea,
>as "neat" as it sounds.

While factoring in the amount of use you get out of a particular social
system (medicine, education, etc..) sounds "neat" you had better expand
it to include all of the indirect benefits as well:

"Ever been to see the doctor and had an illness prevented that you would
 have today?  Add $XXX to taxable income."

"Did your neighbour see the doctor to cure his disease that he otherwise
 would have passed on to you?  Add $XXX to taxable income."

"Do any business with a company providing goods or services for the education
 sector?  Add $XXX to taxable income."

"Benefitted from an improved economy caused by higher education of the
 workforce?  Add $XXX to taxable income."

...etc, ad infinitum silliness.

Not as bad as the same idea implemented for Positive income tax, but still
has the same tendency to kill things benefitting society as a whole but not
every person individually.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: todd@athena.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law)
Subject: Re: Speciesism
Reply-To: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
Organization: Nagoya Institute of Technology, Nagoya ,Japan.
	<1992Dec4.173417.2161@cdf.toronto.edu>
	<04DEC92.15129644.0094@VM1.MCGILL.CA>
	<1992Dec4.230846.20978@cdf.toronto.edu>
	<07DEC92.11618161.0059@VM1.MCGILL.CA>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:18:10 GMT


In article <07DEC92.11618161.0059@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94) writes:

>I'm sure that you can make a good argument in favor of vegetarianism.
>Although I'm not a vegetarian myself, neither am I anti-vegetarian.
>But you're not doing your cause a service by defining an absurd
>notion of "speciesism" and claiming that all species have equal
>rights, then immediately contradicting yourself by saying that
>animal species have more rights than plant species.
>
>Tom Box
>CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA


If you want to use contradictions to argue with vegetarians, try getting
the pro-abortion variety of vegetarians (which most are, in my experience)
to explain their consistency.  To these people, a chicken has more right
to life than a six-month old fetus.  Gets 'em every time.


Todd Law
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nagoya Institute of Technology,
Itoh Laboratory,			"Be excellent to each other."
todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:9356 can.politics:10723