From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Ignorance is *NOT* bliss! Thanks so much Ismet.
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 20:00:00 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C0Co09.4n8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> You won't needed. He's gone.

Did you think that the criminal members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and 
Revisionism Triangle would get away with their crimes? Not a chance.


#<1993Jan3.113544.2334@news.columbia.edu>
#vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)

In article <1993Jan2.195724.24591@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Jan2.113733.1651@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu 
>(Vedat  Dogan) responded to article <1992Dec31.191413.9962@urartu.sdpa.org>  
>dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) and wrote:
>
>[DD] (Vedat  Dogan) wrote:
>
>[VD]  you are humiliated on this matter because you were not aware that 
>[VD]  I had already taken the words from the same book and same paragrapf 
>[VD]  you 'quoted' when you were 'advising' me to get this book.. 
>
>Total Bull! I have no idea what you are taking about. Below I have enclosed 
>the entire page that is easily verified by anybody wishing to take the time 
>to. I have no idea what paragraph you quoted from, but it certainly was not 
>in the paragraph I refer to.
 
   If you read the below you will find out..You will find out that it
  is certainly from the same page and same paragraph..then you will have a
  good idea what I am talking about..
 
>
>[VD]  My point is still here:
>[VD]          YOU didn't quote exactly and completely?..
>[VD] 
>[VD]  will you correct it?
>[VD]          
>[VD]  If not, the 'quotation' below
>[VD] 
>[VD]       "...the terrible holocaust of 1915, when an unknown number
>[VD]        of Turks perished."
>[VD]  
>[VD]  will stand here... 
> 
>You have an unfortunate view of the world and its documentation.
 
  don't rush..please be patient to see how reality will show up ..
 
>
>And I will repeat my claim:
>
>The point of all this, sir, is that Bernard Lewis never said Armenians killed 
>2.5 million of anything. Turkish Genocide Apology has posted many times on 
>UseNet that Bernard Lewis did state such revisionism of history. You have 
>failed to show that Bernard Lewis stated that Armenian killed 2.5 million 
>anything. Thus, we have both demonstrated that the posting of the Cosar-Argic-
>Mutlu revisionist machine are libelous and fraudulent. 
> 
>
>[VD] 'an unknown number of turks perished', which Bernard Lewis states in his 
>[VD] book, does not contradict any number claimed by the other turkish 
>[VD] netters..
>[VD] 
>[VD]  They used his book as a source for an event in which an unknown number
>[VD]  of turks were killed by armenians, not for the numbers..
>[VD]  For the numbers, there are other sources they use.. 
>[VD] 
>[VD]  Please prove your claim that they quoted from B.Lewis' book in their 
>[VD] article for the NUMBER of Turks (2.5 million) killed by armenians...
>
>What a weasel! I never said there was a quote by the revisionist you are
>attempting to join forces with, I said Bernard Lewis was misrepresented on 
>UseNet -- JUST AS YOU HAVE!
 
 they never said that B.Lewis gave the NUMBER of Turks killed by armenians..
 It is just what you understand when you read -not what is written.. 
 
>
>[VD]  in your proof, Mr.Davidian, use their quotations for the NUMBERS taken
>[VD]  from B.Lewis' book, please -not from your 'guess'..
....
..
>[claim] of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
>[claim] This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
>[claim] and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
>[claim] Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
>[claim] Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
>[claim] Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
>....
>[claim] Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
>[claim] others.
>
>
>We are told that Bernard Lewis has "proven" above statement which includes the 
>2.5 million figure. What I shall include, in the following quote is what 
>Bernard Lewis stated on the subject, which is not what the above claim states
>he has "proved".
 
 as I said -not from your guess please..I know you don't want to understand 
 what I mean, but I will try one more time...In the list above there are
 plenty of the sources..There is no need for every book or author to give
 explicitly any number..Some book includes only events, some of them details,
 the others numbers etc..
 clear enough..
 
>
>The following is the entire page, where the quote in question is found in the
>Second Edition of Bernard Lewis's _The Emergence of Modern Turkey_, 1968,
>Oxford University Press, London, Oxford, New York, page 356, for it is easier 
>to find and verify than the 1961 First Edition. The entire page is as follows:
 
 
  let's see..
 
>
>---------------------------- start lewis.quo -------------------------
>
>"356          The Emergence of Modern Turkey
>
>Christian and Imperial principles enabled the powers of Europe to intervene on
>their behalf, supporting their claims both to citizenship and to secession. In 
...
....
>
>For the Turks, the Armenian movement was the deadliest of all threats. From 
>the conquered lands of the Serbs, Bulgars, Albanians, and Greeks, they could, 
>however reluctantly, withdraw, abandoning distant provinces and bringing the 
>Imperial frontier nearer home. But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-
>Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast, lay in the very
>heart of the Turkish homeland--and to renounce these lands would have meant 
>not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state. Turkish and 
>Armenian villages, inextricably mixed, had for centuries lived in neighbourly 
>association. Now a desperate struggle between them began a struggle between 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                        
>two nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>terrible holocaust of 1915 when a million and half Armenians perished.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
   now let's see what is missing here..
 
   From the same source(The emergence of Modern Turkey), the same page(356),
   the same edition(2nd), and from the same paragraph..
 
    "Now a desperate struggle between them began a struggle between 
     two nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the
     terrible holocaust of 1915, when, according to some estimates, up to
                                       ***************************  ******
     a million and half Armenians perished,as well as an unkown number of
                                           ******************************
     Turks."
     ******
 
  
 In your quotation:
  
  what happened to the underlined words with ( ******* ), Mr.Davidian...
 
  what happened to the"according to some estimates"?
  what happened to the "up to"?
  what happened to the "as well as an unknown number of Turks"?
  
  Now, do you understand why you were(are) humiliated?..Now, do you know
  what I am talking about?
  
  I am still asking Mr.Davidian..Will you correct your 'quotation'..
 
 
>.......
>..........
>nationalism, the older idea that Muslim"
>
>----------------------------------- lewis.quo ------------------------------
>
>Hmm...just where is your quote, in the same paragraph as ...1915... regarding
>an "unknown number of Turks"! You sir would not only be thrown off of a 
>debating team but most likely would be banned from further competition!
>
 
  Oooo really..If anyone who does not have the book and wants to check it from
 the book they may go to library or to the Barnes & Noble bookstores 
 to buy it..
 (the Emergence of Modern Turkey,Bernard Lewis,page 356,2nd ed.,1968,
  Oxford Unv. Press)

 You will see how David Davidian twists the facts.. 

>
>-- 
>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org> |"The massacres? Oh well! They merely  
>S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies | amuse me!"  -Talaat Pasha, architect of 
>P.O. Box 382761                      | Turkish the genocide of Armenian people. 
>Cambridge, MA 02238                  | (Four Years Beneath the Crescent, p 208) 
 
 
  herkese mutlu bir yil dilegi ile..
  
  Saygilarimla, 
  ismet
 
                    Cagdas, laik ve guclu bir Turkiye..
Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast