HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barnhart@netcom.com (Aaron Barnhart)
Subject: Bushism: On Meir Kahane's Supporters
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 00:20:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Reply-To: barnhart@netcom.com

"Look, look, there's Kahane protesting on the boat.  I thought this
guy was kind of dead."

-- President Bush, pointing out protesters loyal to the late Meir
   Kahane to Yitzhak Rabin, Kennebunkport, August 10

(Source: The New Republic, August 31, 1992, p. 10)
-- 
Aaron (Barnhart@netcom.com) -- posting from Evanston, Illinois
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: targeting Jews (was Re: more of ...can of worms....)
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:41:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.010453.29031@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
dweinste@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (David Weinstein) writes:

>In article <1992Aug17.192210.15830@njitgw.njit.edu>
>dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:

>#There's a difference between forcing your groups beliefs on outsiders
>#and forcing them on insiders.  I would agree if you meant
>#proselytizing non-Jews, but there is nothing wrong with Jews trying to
>#get other Jews to be more Jewish.  THIS is Judaism, which has never
>#esposed personal freedom as a cornerstone of its religion, unlike the
>#USA.

>Ok, where do you start drawing the line between insiders and outsiders?
>Is it alright to target Jews from Conservative or Reform or Reconstructionist
>background? What about targetting College Freshmen, who are reasonably
>"open" (or vulnerable) to such prosyletization (whether from Jewish or
>non-Jewish sources). What about people who are halachically Jewish but
>have never been exposed to Judaism? What about people who have chosen
>a different religion? What about those people's children if they are
>halachically Jewish?

Because the people who care to help bring Jews back to Judaism only care
to bring Jews back, I'd say anyone who is halachically Jewish is probably
fair game.  Perusing your list, I see a strong probability that all those
listed would be, in fact, halachically Jewish.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
		Note new machine name
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:43:10 GMT

Aaron Schmiedel writes:
>Stan Krieger writes:
>>
>>Now, what is the minhag in this case?  My son (age 16) is at an 
>>Orthodox service where most of the community observes the "no
>>tallit until marriage" minhag.  
>
>
>At this point, it becomes not which community he is VISITING, but
>which community he LIVES in!
>
>For example, before I was married I attended an orthodox shul which
>had a minhag of no talis for a male unmarried.  MY custom, being
>Ashkenazic, is that we are to wear a talis after bar mitzvah.  So,
>I was the only male who was unmarried and wearing a talis.
>
>Simple, nu?

Actually it isn't so simple.  Suppose we are in my dad's synagogue (the
majority are from Eastern Europe ancestry; I think the only teenagers
who wear a tallit are the sons of a member from Holland), now what is
the rule?  To many of the people there, they (erroneous) will treat the
custom of my "community" as having about as much validity as the custom
at St. Mary's RC Church.

If we want to get theoretical on this, will they claim that the minhag
that covers the situation for my son is that of my dad's community (which,
being Poland, is no tallit until marriage)?  Of course, during our
affiliation with a Conservative synagogue when I was growing up, my
dad had me wear a tallit since I was 10 or 11.
-- 
Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
From: baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Holes In Sheets??? (Sex, Chassidism, Urban Myths???)
Date: 3 Aug 92 19:29:42 GMT
Organization: Courant Institute, New York University

The JUL That Would Not Die

Ultra-religious Jews have sex through a hole in a sheet.

This is patently false.

Sex is supposed to be ENJOYABLE by both partners.  It's not a dirty
thing, like the Christians make it, it's a commandment, it's a marital
obligation.  There are three major aspects to this: Jews are commanded
to have children "be fruitful and multiply"; Jewish men are obligated to
give their wives sexual satisfaction (it's in the ketubbah, the marriage
contract - read it in the original Aramaic, not in the usual toned-down
translations written on bilingual ketubot); and you will be called to
account in Heaven for any pleasures you were allowed to take but restrained
yourself from.

My wife has a theory about where this particular UL comes from.  Some Christian
sees tzitzis drying on the clothesline.  It looks like a sheet with a hole
in it.  What's it for?  Well, we all know sex is dirty, so these Jews must
do it with this sheet to hide from it and from each other during this 
shameful sexual act.

Apparently, there is a grain of truth behind the UL: some Hassidim do have 
sex while exposing the least part of their anatomy between their pajamas
(Heilman, "Defenders of the Faith: Inside Ultra Orthodox Jewry," p330).
The Shulchan Aruch does say that one should have sex only in the dark, so
as to preserve modesty.

     ---+  ||  --+  --+
        |        '    '             Jonathan J. Baker
     ---+-                          baker@robocop.nyu.edu
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Should a jew settle in Israel?
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:18:11 GMT

In <+!7m=ba.yosi@netcom.com> yosi@netcom.com (Yosi Almog) writes:

>Is there any importance for a jew to live in Israel?

Wow, finally an issue on which everyone's answer won't be predictable
given their position on the OCR debate.

BTW, my opinion is that for observant Jews (of any movement), living
in Israel is a positive commandment.  One who lives outside Israel
does not, IMO, commit a sin, but people who wouldn't think of passing
up a chance to do a mitzva ought to not let this one go by.  As Yaakov
Fogelman says, we should add one more thing after "Next year in
Jerusalem" - "One way ticket: $700".  To which I'd add, CYLTA -
travel agent (regardless of the agent's religion or movement) - prices
may vary.

And for Jews for whom observance of mitzvot has no meaning at all, but
for whom it is important that their descendants don't assimilate into
the surrounding society to the point where they are in no sense Jews,
living in Israel should be important for them, too.  Same price.

Jews who have no attachement to either observance of the mitzvot or to
Jewish continuity may ignore this, and anything else that I say about
what Jews ought to do.

Just in case anyone asks about the address on this article, which
seems to come from New York, please note that the city mentioned in
the signature is where I live.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very slow gazelle.
 |warren@      But the minister of communications
/ nysernet.org is concerned.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger)
Subject: Re: become jewish ?
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 03:32:19 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.212238.12197@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
>My point was that there may be a tribal element to Judaism
>(or flavors of Jewish culture) that
>may have transcended the halachic "rules".

Ah! I thought you were raising an issue of the acceptance of the halachic
authenticity of the ancestry of certain groups. That would have
surprised me. 

The tribalism you mention is indeed present in more than one group of
Jews. For instance, I've heard people say that German Jews weren't
"Jews."

--Mark
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Etiquette question: bris (sp?)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:22:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.013651.29185@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug3.222329.7142@cbnews.cb.att.com> ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:
>>The father is usually offerred the opportunity to perform the bris
>>himself, but in almost every case, a professional "mohel" will do it.
>>This is someone who is knowledgable in the Jewish laws concerning
>>the bris, and -- hopefully -- very experienced.  
>Nu, how does a mohel become very experienced?
   Easy, he just has to mull it over...
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:19:16 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Aug18.131900.23543@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <56951@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu
>(Herman Rubin) writes:

			....................

>->As for traditions becoming laws, the advancement of science is due to 
>->nothing short of mathematical proof becoming established so that it 
>->cannot be overturned, and often without too much difficulty.  Knowledge
>->is always incomplete, and even the greatest are necessarily ignorant.
>->Newtonian optics was completely abandoned, not because those arguing
>->against it were greater, but because they showed it was wrong.  Newtonian
>->gravity actually was disproved where Newton suggested that one should look
>->for the disproof.  

>Does this mean there is a tradition of logic by now?  If so, will it be
>overthrown? Can it?

Not if anything precise is to be obtained.  The part of logic needed is
rather small; the principles can be stated in one page.  

This is the power of the grammatical structure called mathematics.  So
much comes out of so little, and it seems to fit the real world quite
well--almost too well, in fact.  Some philosophers have declared that
God must be a mathematician because of this.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: howeird@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com
Subject: Re: Should a jew settle in Israel?
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:58:28 GMT
Organization: HP Research Grants Program

According to hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles):
>This is fun. If you allow me to define the limits, I wouldn't stop at
>Jordan or Damascus either. After all, couldn't you argue that David's
>kingdom was sufficient for his day, but today, we need much more room
>than that. (OF course, this is not a valid argument according to the
>Talmud because "kedusha shniya kidsha l'atid l'avo" (Chagiga 3b))
>
>However, you are of the opinion that we have to use our pure logic.
>My logic says that we should take as much land as we need/want :-)
>

Taking this to its logical conclusion, how about claiming half of Africa on
the basis that somewhere in there are King Solomon's mines?

. Howard Stateman            
. howeird@hpl.HP.COM        
. [Not an HP spokesman]    
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 15 Aug 92 20:47:59 GMT

In <BsxFBo.Mvv@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:

>    I do not see why our responsibility for the Croatians and Bosnian
>    Muslims should be greater than that of the rest of the world's.

Natan Sharansky, writing in The Jerusalem Report, August 27 1992
(p38), says:

    the moment Jews hear phrases like "ethnic cleansing," they are
    compelled to react.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very Czarish apple.
 |warren@      But the Kibo
/ nysernet.org is not all that concerned.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: moskowit@tronsbox.xei.com (Len Moskowitz)
Subject: Re: Facts and Opinions: Insights on American Jewish Thinking(?)
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:12:22 GMT

Herman Rubin writes:

>The recodifying has not been done by anybody.  The last recodification
>of a code of ritual and taboo was done in the Shulkhan Arukh, which does
>not, except peripherally, discuss the bases of the rules.  ...

This is because the experts have decided that there is no need for
recodifying.  The armchair amateurs may disagree but what does that
matter?

>As far as consulting the primary texts in the original languages, I cannot
>read Euclid's _Elements_, nor the even more important work of Diophantus,
>in the original Greek.  Nor can more than a handful of mathematicians 
>today, including the greatest ones.  

If you doubted Euclid's conclusions, you'd be a fool not to read him
in the original.  How much more so for Torah?

>I cannot imagine a curriculum in which a student would be expected to
>even look at these original works, rather than getting them placed in
>context in presentations in the vernacular.  Even at the research level,
>knowledge of other languages is primarily so that the investigator can
>read the current literature before it is digested or translated.  While
>I can read the mathematicians of the 17th and 18th century in Latin, I
>only do so to find out if they used a trick which has been removed from
>the current textbooks, not for the theorems.

Sounds like a weak excuse to me.  You seek to undermine the
foundations of Judaism when you haven't even read the most basic texts
(not to mention reading them in their original languages), nor have
you consulted with the experts who have.  (Did you ever consult with
Rabbi/Professor Tendler about your flood/archeology question?)  Does
this sound like intellectual honesty to you?

-- 
---

Len Moskowitz
moskowit@tronsbox.xei.com (preferred address)
moskowit@panix.com (alternate address)
From: nyu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Radu's Doubts
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:49:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: cmcl2.1992Aug14.164927.10029
Organization: New York University


In article AeWnz7m00WB68QlaoK@andrew.cmu.edu, Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu> () writes:
> What is the reason for Trudjman to quote the former inmate's
> opinion on Jewish religion and character ?  Why did he feel it
> was needed to include in his book such gross antisemitic remarques ?
> Does Trudjman agree with the testimonies presented in his book ?
> Are ther testimonies given by Jewish inmates that he quotes ?
> 
> I believe the two postings raise these questions and many others.
> Definitely more information about Trudjman's book and his
> opinions are needed, but the two passages in his book are signs that
> many would interpret as antisemitism on the behalf of the Croatian
> leader.
> Rad


Radu, the anti-semitism of Trudjman has never really been questioned
(though I do have doubts about any translation that Milan Stojanovic
presents). So what. Richard Nixon was a raving anti-semite. Did that
mean that Canada and Mexico would legitimately have had the right to supply
Canadians and Mexicans in the US with heavy artillery and air support
as they shelled and bombed civilians of the US to ethnic cleanse them.
Would reminding us all of the wars we fought with Canada (54.40 or fight)
and Mexico (Remeber the Alamo) have given them legitimacy.

Are you suggesting that the fascist Sloban Milosevic is invading Croatia
and Bosnia-Herzegovina (which Trudjman is not in charge of) to protect
Jews from the anti-semitism?

Here. Trudjman is a fascist. During WWII, Croatia was a Nazi puppet.
Tell me how that explains the shelling of civilians in Croatia and
Bosnia-Herzegovina today.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ben@ccvs1.technion.ac.il (Ben Pashkoff)
Subject: Re: is the hebrew language a new language?
Reply-To: ben@ccvs1.technion.ac.il (Ben Pashkoff)
Organization: Technion IIT, Haifa Israel
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 10:44:33 GMT


In article <4115@bimacs.BITNET>, rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) writes:

|>'Hebraicised' his name, eg. David Grynbaum=David ben-Gurion, Golda

Sorry, I believe that Ben-Gurions' original name was Guren, not Green or
Grynbaum as was thought.

--
________________________________________________________________________
|            Ben Pashkoff                 BEN@VMSA.TECHNION.AC.IL      |
|                                                                      |
| "There is nothing better for the body than silence." Pirke Avot 1:17 |
|______________________________________________________________________|

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: CLINTON TEXT: ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EA
Reply-To: horen@rs.com
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 15:48:51 PDT

In article 23806@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>Palestinian State
>>
>>The Palestinians have the right -- as specified in the Camp David Accords -- to
>>participate in the determination of their future.  But they do not have the
>>right to determine Israel's future.  For that reason, Bill Clinton opposes the
>>creation of an independent Palestinian state.
>>
>
>The creation of a Palestinian state will determine the future of Israel? What
>kind of statement is this? 

No; I understand it to mean that the creation of a Palestinian state *within*
Israel, by virtue of it's geographic/physical location, a fortiori determines
very much Israel's future.

Does anybody understand this way? Differently?

j.horen@rs.com
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish summer camps (Was: Hebrew school)
Date: 13 Aug 92 08:06:13 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Aug12.075847.11312@midway.uchicago.edu> clmn@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Coleman) writes:

>My ten year-old just got back from Camp Moshava ... She also wrote
>letters to Mr. & Mrs. Wm. Coleman, even though her mother uses her
>maiden name. 

I'm not sure if this is one of the good things about the Moshava
experience or not.  Wouldn't kibud em require a child to address her
mother the way she wishes to be addressed?
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very bitter mathom.
 |warren@      But the Kibo
/ nysernet.org is not all that paranoid.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Advertising on the Net - NOTES FROM A SEALED ROOM
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 19:10:21 GMT


   Sometimes the reactions to this advertising nonsense can get a
bit extreme.
   Last year I posted some reviews of classical CD's in the group
for classical music.  I own and operate a compact disc mail order
and retail business.  So, as one might guess, I have access to an
enormous number of recordings.  I felt that my knowledge of music
might be of some use to those that read the group.  Some of those
that read my reviews knew that I was in the music business, and I
received the scolding of my adult life, in spite of the fact that
I NEVER offered any of these for sale, and I NEVER even mentioned
that I was in the music business.  Each and every CD reviewed can
be bought in, or ordered from, any decent record store.  So these
anti-commercial zealots can go off the deep end.  I never had the
time to post what a pack of morons I think they are.  And this is
still my only regret.  So those of you that are getting all upset
over the Werman book, take a hike.
-- 
"The tree of liberty must occasionally be nourished by the blood
of tyrants and of patriots."                    Thomas Jefferson
"Hello? Information?  Would you please give me the home phone of
Pat Buchanan?...Yes.  His address as well, thank you very much."
From: feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld)
Subject: Re: Jews in Japan
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:17:15 GMT


For a wonderful, surprising set of insights, try _The Japanese and
the Jews_, by Isaiah Ben-Dasan (Weatherhill, 1972).
-- 
Michael Feld                         | E-mail:  <feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Philosophy                  | FAX:     (204) 261-0021
University of Manitoba               | Voice:   (204) 474-9136
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 2M8, Canada	                     
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan)
Subject: Re: become jewish ?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:00:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.161603.5361@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug14.153621.3507@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
|> > In article <1992Aug14.101010.11514@cicb.fr>, moisan@cicb.fr (Herve Moisan -  stagiaire CICB) writes:
|> > |> 
|> > |> is it true that nobody can become jewish and it is obligatory to
|> > |> have a jewish mother ?
|> > 
|> > 	ABSULUTELY NOT!!!
|> > 
|> > 	I'm not sure where you got this information, but is is completely 
|> > wrong.  (As far as I know, the only religious groups that do not have a 
|> > conversion process are the Samaritans and the Druze.)
|> > 
|> 
|> Karaites are what you mean, not Druze?  The Druze are a sect of Islam,
|> not Judaism?  I read an interesting article about the Karaites.  They
|> are fast disappearing because their children inter-marry and they
|> have no remedy since the non-Karaite (can be a Jew, and it is still
|> considered inter-marriage by the Karaim) cannot convert the
|> non-Karaite spouse.  This is also because you really need a certain
|> amount of critical mass to survive and provide enough potential marriage
|> partners in the pool (Iraqi Jews still in Iraq have the same problem).
|> There are two communities (small) in the US, one in
|> San Francisco and one in Baltimore.  I believe the
|> article was in Hadassah magazine.

	You're absolutely right, the Karaites do not accept converts at all.
However, I was thinking of all religions, and the Druze just happened to have
popped into my head.
 
|> Also, among some Sephardim, although conversion is "recognized"
|> they consider that it is different to be born a Jew or converted
|> to a Jew (halachically or not).  I have met a couple (both non-Jews)
|> who were refused by a Sephardic rabbi and then converted into
|> a Chasidic group.  I think the rabbi was from Syria.

	How do they justify this (halachicly)?  It seems to be way out of 
the mainstream of Jewish practice.

|> > 	The conversion process is fairly straight forward, though it is not
|> > easy (on purpose).
|> >   
|> > |> And what do you think of extrem-rights mvts which grows in europe 
|> > |> ?
|> > |> (Le Pen in france, neo-nazis in germany)
|> > |> do you think are they only hooligans or is it more dangerous ?
|> > 
|> > 	If they are not opposed, they are _potentially_ as dangerous as Hitler.
|> > 
|> > 	Elya
|> 
|> 
|> 		Seth Rosenthal
|> 
|> Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers's.


	Elya
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ward@sun1.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Ward)
Subject: The effects of your morality on me
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 01:53:13 GMT

In article <56990@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> 
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

>IF the person is not endangering others, we have the moral right only

This is a very big IF when it comes to morality.  Jeremiah suffered
to a great extent because those around him refused the morals that
God required of them.

>The greatest immorality of all is to impose one's morality on others.

Which is, in and of itself, a morality.  You are thereby accused of failing 
to live by it, in attempting to impose it upon others.

>Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399

Paul Ward