From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Sexuality & Religion
Date: Mon,  5 Oct 92 09:45:10 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

9210.05 e.v.


old Thyagi:

[Did we ever hear from Toshi on this?]


Karen:

Actually, I dont think we ever did, but he posts here in trna so 
I would think he would pick up the strain here....


Response:

Good.  I don't frequent this newsgroup myself, but I'll look in occasionally.


old Thyagi:

This is unclear.  We are certainly speaking about sex.  You seem to be
suggesting that there are more and less 'spiritual' means of engaging
in sexual activity.


Karen:

Yup... that is what I meant... seems like there are more or less spiritual
ways of doing/being to me... that is that one can do things with varying
levels of spirituality... is this so strange? to you or anybody? Please 
describe your problems with this....


Response:

As was more apparent later in your post, I think that you posit the
separation of body/mind/spirit which is quite Christian in origin.  You
also seem to accept a definition for 'spiritual' which is novel, yet
traditional in some senses.   I'm not using 'Christian' like a 'bad word'
here.  I consider myself Christian in many senses.  I don't feel like
the material or attitude is representative of very many Eastern traditions,
which (in soc.religion.eastern) is where this thread began, but I'm far
from an expert on Eastern things.  Then again, your name indicates a
Euro-American upbringing, so I guess I assumed some things about you.
Please correct me if I'm off-base.


old Thyagi:

...Maybe, just maybe, sexuality and spirituality AREN'T
two different things. ;>


Karen:

Well, I dont mean to imply that they are different things, only that the
attitude or reason can be different at times. Anyway, each of (IMHO) :-)
[us] decides what we are doing and why... i.e. the old create your own 
reality thing.


Response:

Later on here it seems you do.  Certain TYPES of sexuality are NOT
spiritual, you say.  I encourage you to more explicitly define for me
what you mean by 'spiritual'.  Thanks.

Also, I question the accuracy of that 'old adage' that 'we each create
our own reality', especially if you mean by that some conscious direction.


Karen:

I was trying to be "nice" but I see it didnt work... I meant the word
rutting as being the kind of thing that some do: hit the bars and get 
drunk and take somebody home and scratch an itch with them and then 
forget them the next day... the kind of thing that lonely non-giving 
people do. This is not very spiritual in my assessment.


Response:

This is what I've referred to above as your definition of certain TYPES
of sexuality (i.e. the nonpersonal, seemingly haphazard) as unspiritual.
You do indeed posit the difference and I only question its accuracy.


old Thyagi:

...It would seem that as one 'gets farther
along' one's path begins to break down and fuse into that of all else.
In such a case, perhaps you are correct because EVERYONE is then seen
to be following a 'similar path'.  My own experience leads me to think
more and more that the further I go I wish to come closest to That which
is most UNlike myself, That Other which understands all that I do not.


Karen:

Hmmm.... What does this mean in terms of real behavior or experience?
Who exactly do you seek out to have sex with? To me, what they are doing
in this life is not necessarily indicative of their spiritual develop-
ment. I am at a loss for words here, except to ask you to define yourself
more succinctly so that I may understand. 


Response:

'Real' behavior or experience?  As opposed to what?  Abstract?  Perhaps
you intend to mean 'concrete' here?  I was speaking in terms of personal
experience/behavior (i.e. one's subjective experience of the world as
it happens - this may not look like much from the outside, however).

I don't seek out people with whom to 'have sex'.  I take 'sex' to be a
much deeper thing than simply physical intimacy.  For me, sex begins and
ends with life.  Each interaction with another is in some way sexual. We
learn to isolate one aspect of this and consider it 'sex' because then we
we can feel more comfortable about our lives.  'Sex' is such a horrid taboo
in modern Western culture that Madison Avenue can yank us all around
by our sex-glands and induce mass-purchasing using naked bodies.  

To 'define myself more succinctly' would be to lose much of what I was
saying.  It concerns one's experience of the world.  You stated that
you thought people naturally sought out people who had 'similar paths'
or 'were on similar places in their path' as they 'progressed'.  I only
questioned the accuracy of this because my experience is one of 
unification of seeming opposites.  

As I move through life I find myself drawn toward that which is most
UNlike me.  I want to learn about the 'alien', the 'enemy', the Other
which is not-me.  'World' is my 'divinity', if you like, and 'that-which-
is-not-me' is a more intriguing person with whom to engage intimacy (of
ALL types).  To this end I think that I'll be drawn toward people who are
quite different from my own path, though perhaps as dedicated and as
'way out'.  This can be seen from different perspectives, of course.

Let me give an example.  My Abyss (lover), Lisa, is UNlike me in very
many ways.  She likes to interact with lots of people directly, I often
only do so via computer; she frequents the outdoors, I tend to stay at
home inside; she tends to work out personal issues by engaging emotion
directly, I was taught that emotions are dangerous and tend toward
intellectualizing them so as to detach and examine them carefully.  We
are in many ways on opposite poles, yet we share many values (of self-
exploration, of honesty, of communication, and more).  

BECAUSE we are so different we have much to learn from one another.  There
are definite areas of agreement and some very firm commonalities which
provide for our interaction, yet on the whole we can be seen as coming
from two very different places and are more like 'two ships passing'
(and perhaps merging for a time) than 'two birds flying South for the
Winter'.  I hope I've made myself more clear.


old Thyagi:

I'm not sure I understand this, but I think I agree.  Then again, when
sex becomes a 'tool' it quite often stops being spontaneous.  I tend
to like my sex unplanned, uncontrolled, and unconditioned.


Karen:

Oh, well, I didnt say that I stood back and watched the whole thing
from some distance... <grin> when I speak of a tool, I am speaking
of it on an intellectual level. When I am actually "doing" something,
I operate on a much more fluid, interactive, and right brain level.
By that, I mean, I hardly ever analyze the situation while I am in 
it... whatever that situation might be. 


Response:

Understood, yet if your attitude toward sexuality when NOT engaged in it
is that it is a 'tool', this will filter into your experience of it.
If there are 'spiritual' and 'unspiritual' ways of relating sexually, then
you may be faced with intellectual hurdles during your 'right-brain'
experiences.  Little thoughts may begin to surface (when experimenting,
if you ever do) like 'um, is THIS spiritual?' or 'is this rutting?'.
I don't claim that there is a best way to live, only that considering
sex a tool can lead to problems.



Karen:

Yeah... I dont exactly consider it a sacrifice to have sex... hehe, and
I am certainly not one to "sacrifice" my life to the raising of 
children. It is my belief that sexuality is one of the roads to 
or peeks at a higher level which we have long been denied or at least 
warned off from... through the use of guilt and other mechanisms.


Response:

The word 'sacrifice' literally means 'to make sacred'.  It has come to
be used to indicate denial of oneself (through personal or property
restriction) as some form of 'worship'.  I agree with you here that
sex has been denied and repressed through guilt and other social
mechanisms.  It has been a very effective means of depersonalization
and disenfranchizement.  Those who are without their personal power
are easier to manipulate.


old Thyagi:

I like to think that the mundane and the divine are ONE.  Humanity/Nature
and God are One also, and the Buddha teaches me to find my connection,
as the Child of the Divine, to that perfect Oneness which transcends and
infuses all apparent separation.  Kali asks me to make love with Her.
She says that neither She nor I shall survive the experience, yet we
shall be together in eternal timeliness.

And yes, I think that something incredible worthwhile ('spiritually'?  yes)
can be achieved when one takes the time to engage in an afternoon's rutting.
Is sex bad?  Is God?  Is Buddha?  What DOES 'bad' mean, anyway?


Karen:

Its obvious that I was using the word differently than you were...
I was using it in the context of being horny to the point of not
caring who you did it with. That doesnt sound like what you had in mind.
I could be wrong.... straighten me out if so... <smile>



Response:

I realize this and am attempting to understand ...

1) The value of labelling anything 'bad' or 'wrong'   and

2) What is the problem with impersonal sexuality?




Thyagi
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