HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Christians Reject Jesus,Embrace Tora
Date: 28 Dec 92 03:17:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: moskowit@panix.com

 LM> Message-ID: <1992Dec22.040958.24507@panix.com>
 LM> Newsgroups: alt.messianic

 LM> My apologies to the readers of alt.messianic.  A messianic
 LM> evangelist posted some his missionizing material to s.c.j and I
 LM> responded in kind both on s.c.j and also to a.m where followups
 LM> were directed.

     Guess that makes you an anti-Messianic evangelist then, huh :-)

 LM> The Bnai Noah are a wonderful challenge to Christianity and even
 LM> more so to messianics.

     Then let them pick up this newsgroup [alt.Messianic] on their own.

 LM> So how about it?  May I post more here on a.m about ex-Christians
 LM> who reject Jesus to become Bnai Noah following Orthodox halachic
 LM> guidelines?

     Sure, if we can have all of our posts go to s.c.j..  For example,
     testimonies of Rabbi's who've accepted Y'shua!  See the problem
     here?!  But I suppose that there are those who have to talk to
     those unwilling to listen, and sometimes I probally do myself;
     but that's not my "trip" at the moment, at least not on s.c.j..
     You maybe want that to change? :-)

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210            
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: moskowit@panix.com (Len Moskowitz)
Subject: Re: Christians Reject Jesus,Embrace Torah
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 04:09:58 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

Bruce Benning writes:

> Well, well, well. Len launched this prize to alt.messianic. I'm sure we
> could have days of commentary on it. I would just like to say that with
> this type of post, since I'm sure Len would not do to others what he
> himself would NOT WANT others to do to him, IS Inviting the readers of A.M.
> to submit posts to SCJ on all those we know who left the self-righteous
> traditions of the rabbis for the truth of Messiah Yeshua.

My apologies to the readers of alt.messianic.  A messianic evangelist
posted some his missionizing material to s.c.j and I responded in kind
both on s.c.j and also to a.m where followups were directed.

In keeping with Christian philosophy though, I suggest that a proper
response for Bruce is for him to offer me "his other cheek."  Why not
welcome posts that put beliefs in Jesus into question?  The Bnai Noah
are a wonderful challenge to Christianity and even more so to
messianics.

So how about it?  May I post more here on a.m about ex-Christians
who reject Jesus to become Bnai Noah following Orthodox halachic
guidelines?

Might be interesting.

-- 
Len Moskowitz
moskowit@panix.com
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: One more time...
Date: 23 Dec 92 00:34:10 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

I guess I didn't save the Rebbe Sad-sack's article to disk, so I will
answer (once again!) a major flaw in his premise....

The article in question, (way back), was part of an ongoing discussion
showing that, (among other things), the idea of the Tri-Unity was not
totally void in Rabbinic thought.  It was pointed out by the Rebbe (SS
for short) that this version of the Zohar, The Amsterdam, was not up
to his standards.  Frankly, I could care less! The point was not to get
a blessing or an endorsement from SS for this particular version of
Zohar, but to simply show that such an idea was indeed present in that
particular century - indeed, the majority of Rabbinic Jews in the time
of Z'vi were swept away into this in the Middle East, and included
entire communities and many Rabbi's in Europe and parts of Africa as
well.  That was established by quotes of a Secular Judiac nature in a
follow up article by myself some time ago on the same subject,
in which I also showed other time periods that this had occured,
including the present century in a Chabbalistic 20th cent. movement,
and likewise during the Qumran communities existance.

So..., the issue of valid/invalid for that particular Zohar text,
(which btw the R. SS has failed to demonstrate - other than providing
his "own" translation on another version of Zohar, and leveling a lot
of shmut against Laura and myself, - but no quotes on the nature and
origions of the Amsterdam version he disregards; but for the sake of
argument I'm willing to let it go at that ...for now), has nothing to
do with the origional conversation he came upon.

Finally, the point REALLY, - is that this idea, (and others similar to
Messianic Judaism), have in fact shown up from time to time, - & these
even sprung from Rabbinic sources!

So..., R. SS, you say that the "Amsterdam Zohar" was done by a
follower of Shabbaton Z'vi? - FINE!  Wonderful!  Only further backs
up my point.  Anyone on here can look up in the Jewish Ency. or the
Encly. Judaica themselves, and see just how widespread that movement
was, and they can further see for themselves, (from those same secular
JUDAIC sources), that indeed - they DID hold to an idea of a "trinity",
or rather - the Tri-Unity of HaShem!

And so my origional premise stands - 'the idea of the Tri-Unity of
HaShem is not totally unheard of, or unknown, in Rabbinic thought',
(though the majority in 'modern' Judaism, during this century, reject
it).

Bye bye.

... 012 But, woe unto the house that the turnip enters :-) 210        
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: David.Johnson@f0.n2012.z8.FIDONET.ORG (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: David Johnson
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:51:55 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:2012/0


 GF> David.Johnson@f0.n2012.z8.FIDONET.ORG (David Johnson),

 GF> Please post an internet or bitnet address where we can reach you.
 GF> I have tried to mail a reply to your post, but it gets bounced 
 GF> back.

 GF> Gedaliah Friedenberg
 GF> -=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
 GF> -=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
 GF> -=-Michigan State University

Hello, Gedaliah.  Try David.Johnson@f34.n130.z1.fidonet.org
and perhaps it will get through.  I'm not sure if there is a gateway for this second suggestion, but if there were, you could use 
David.Johnson@f0.n2012.z8.familynet.org using my Familynet address, rather than
my Fidonet address.  Unfortunately, this is another hardship brought on by
power hungry network hitlers who want their own zone and network addresses.
It forces aliasing, and computer professionals KNOW that ANYTHING that causes ALIASING is BAD DESIGN.

DJ

--  
David Johnson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: David.Johnson@f0.n2012.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: hartley@maths.uwa.oz.au (Mike Hartley)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The Crucifixion Prophecy??
Date: 23 Dec 1992 09:16:17 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>>[stuff about Joe deleted]
>Well, if Jesus misses on a couple and still has such a large following,
>why can't Joe?  After all, once the messiah is here there will be world
>peace.  Jesus didn't do a very good job on that one and look at how
>many million people still think he's IT. 

I'm curious, and not very familiar with the details of the prophecies
concerned:

The Christians all say that Jesus Christ is coming back again, and at _that_
time, there will be peace on earth - the everlasting kingdom of God. The
Jews expect that the Messiah should begin to rule with an iron sceptre
the first time round.

But are the prophecies concerned _inconsistent_ with the Christian idea
of two comings? Please answer...

Yours, Mike H...
<hartley@madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au>

--
Michael Hartley 		    _-_|\  | "All things works for good to
hartley@madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au     /	 \ |  them that love God - them that
University of WA ----------------> *_.-._/ |  are the called according to His
					v  |  purpose" - Romans 8:28
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Messianic Judaism (inter-marriage)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 07:35:49 -0600
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


In article <141681.2B421CF6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>
Harvey Smith writes:

[Here's some text which you deleted ...]

[ HS>>... In fact a Conservative Shul went on record as saying that
  HS>> they were glad we were in existance as we took in the poor
  HS>>  who could not afford ]

  HS>>  a ticket to High Holy days at the local Synagogue, and we 
  HS>>  always advertise Free Seats...

 RAL> Well, if it's on record, where might one proof of this?
 RAL> (i.e., newspaper, date, page )

 HS> Sorry Rob, it was the president of the Shul, 
 HS> who told this to one of our elders. 


Give us a break, Harvey.  You said, "In fact a Conservative
shul went on record."  Now you're saying it was the
shul president speaking for him or herself, and that it
was not on record, and that you got this second-hand.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume
that you weren't lying, but had merely forgotten that the
source was not on record, and are sorry for having made this error.

Since I'm not ready to believe that the president of a Conservative
shul would make such a foolish statement, I'd also like to give him or
her the benefit of the doubt and call this person to get confirmation
or denial of having said that.  Please e-mail me his name and number.
If you can't find a valid mail path, forward it to Bill Carlson or
Bruce Tiffany, who have successfully sent me e-mail in the past.

Rob


-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: friedenb@emerald.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re:  Christian Kabbalah
Date: 22 Dec 92 14:37:00 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@emerald.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: emerald.egr.msu.edu

In article <1992Dec19.173417.994@dragon.com> cms@dragon.com (Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith)) writes:

[article deleted - .sig follows]

-- 
Cindy Smith              --  Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter
cms@dragon.com           ||  A Real Live Catholic in Georgia
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       **AT LEAST CINDY WAS KIND ENOUGH TO REMIND US THAT**
             **"MESSIANIC" JEWS ARE CHRISTIANS!!!!**

emory!dragon!cms         ||  
><>                      /\  Woe to craven hearts and drooping hands,
Delay not your       .--/--\--.  to the sinner who treads a double path!
conversion       |----\/-||-\/----| Woe to the faint of heart who trust not,
to the Lord,     |----/\-||-/\----|   who therefore will have no shelter!
put it not off       `--\--/--'     Woe to you who have lost hope!
from day to day          \/   what will you do at the visitation of the Lord?
                         ||           
     -- Ecclesiasticus   ||           -- Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 2:12-14  
        /Ben Sira 5:8    --    



(P.S., overlaying a "Jewish Star" on a cross is like overlaying a 
swastika on a peace symbol.  It is impossible to mix such things.)

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Reincarnation in Christianity
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:31:56 EST
Distribution: alt.messianic
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Mikko V. Valjento writes:

> Was the teaching of reincarnation part of Christianity ?

No.  Messiah never spoke of it.

In fact, "it is appointed for men to die once, and after this comes judgment."
(Hebrews 9:27)

> Are there any facts to support this ?

To support reincarnation?  Of course not!

Perhaps the definitive teaching on reincarnation was given by Garrison Keilor
(or at least someone on Prairie Home Companion):

*****************************************************************************

REINCARNATION

"What is reincarnation?",
 A cowboy asked his friend.
"It starts", his old pal told him,
"When your life comes to it's end.

"They wash your neck, and comb your hair,
 And clean your fingernails,
 And put you in a padded box,
 Away from life's travails.
 
"And then that box goes in a hole
 That they've dug in the ground.
 Reincarnation starts in when
 You're burried beneath that mound.
 
"Them clods melts down, along with the box,
 And you who is inside,
 And that's when you're beginnin'
 On your transformation ride.
 
"And pretty soon the grass grows up
 And covers up that mound,
 Until one day upon that spot
 A lowly flow'r is found.
 
"And then a horse may wander by
 And graze upon that flow'r
 That once was you, and has now become
 Your vegitative bower.
 
"Now that flower that the horse done eat,
 'long with his other feed,
 Makes bone, and fat, and muscle;
 Essential to the steed.
 
"But there's a part that he can't use
 And so it passes through.
 And then upon the prairie lies
 This thing that once was you.
 
"Now if I should wander by
 And see this on the ground,
 I'll stop a while and ponder
 At this object that I've found.
 
"And I'll think about reincarnation,
 And life, and death, and such,
 And I'll come away concludin'
 'You ain't changed all that much!'"

*****************************************************************************

	:-)

A blessed Hannukah to all!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal
____/__\____		life, and this life is in His Son.  He who has the Son
\  / || \  /		has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does
 \/--++--\/		not have the life.
 /\  ||  /\						-- 1 John 5:11-12
/  \ || /  \
----\--/----		-- Bruce Tiffany
     \/
From: Arthur@cswamp.apana.org.au (Arthur Marsh)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Distribution: world
Subject: David Johnson
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 01:10:10 +1000

On Fri 18 Dec at 19:30 Gedaliah Friedenberg wrote:

 GF> David.Johnson@f0.n2012.z8.FIDONET.ORG (David Johnson),

 GF> Please post an internet or bitnet address where we can reach

 GF> you. I have tried to mail a reply to your post, but it 
 GF> gets bounced back.

Try David.Johnson@f34.n130.z1.fidonet.org

Also, Harvey Smith can be contacted as:

Harvey.Smith@f519.n100.z1.fidonet.org


 * Origin: Camelot Swamp MJCNA, Hawthorndene, Sth Australia
(8:7000/8)

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Subject: Re: Messianic Judaism
Organization: LA&W RR
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 13:46:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.041034.17162@cis.ohio-state.edu> khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.151410.8051@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>>Now please go away.
>
>Let me just join you, Sam, by saying to that missionary that he's got a
>lot of guts writing this to the Jewish newsgroup.
>
>GET OUT OF HERE! GO READ TALMUD FOR THE FIRST TIME OR SOMETHING!


Talk about Khutspah! (sp)  This is alt.messianic, where do you want this to
go, back to s.c.j.?  =B^)

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Subject: Supposed Talmud quotes  (was Re: Almah in Isa 7:14)
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:14:28 GMT


Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:

> While it is easy to give modern renditions of a word without looking back at
> antiquity as to the original meaning and purpose, i am dropping a couple of
> logs onto the fire, so as to help others see what the true meaning of Almah
> is.

"Without looking back at antiquity" ?!?

Noone on the net even comes close to spending the amount of time studying the
Bible and traditional Jewish writings that is spent by Orthodox scholars
studying in Yeshiva and Kollel.  Harvey proves this later with his supposed
Talmud quote.


> In Rabbinics, it is interpreted as  "A young maiden"

Right.  A young maiden who could be married (and thus not a virgin) or married
(and thus presumably a virgin).

Harvey then talks about the "coverup" of the fact that Jews 2000 years ago
believed in a virgin birth.


> The prophet Isaiah, rings faithful to his prophecy and states boldly:
> "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a child and his name shall be
> called Immanuel (G-d with us)."

Proof tactic number one: proof by forceful assertion.

BTW, can you tell me how you get the phrase "shall conceive" from the original
Hebrew?  The Hebrew actually says "is pregnant" in the present tense.


Now we get Harvey's quote from the Talmud:

> The below quotes are taken from the English folio edition of the Talmud vol
> ii p 386...

Sorry, but can you please give a real citation to the Talmud?  The second
volume of the Talmud (Messeches Shabbos) has no page 386, and this is true of
the Soncino English edition as well.  If you're talking about some obscure
printing, please elaborate.

  [Supposed Talmud quote deleted]

I decided that even though your citation is nonsense, I'd check if such a
Talmud quote exists.  I checked out the verse in Psalms (110:4) that is
included, and used the Toldos Aharon to find all the times that the verse is
quoted in the Talmud.  None of the references I got bore any resemblence to
the supposed Talmud quote you give.

So what do we see?  (1) The citation you give is nonsense, and (2) it appears
that the quote doesn't exist in the Talmud.

Of course, I may be wrong.  Please give a real citation if you have it.  If
you don't, please stop making up Talmud quotes.

Dov (Bruce) Krulwich
krulwich@ils.nwu.edu
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 31 Dec 1992 02:00:25 -0600
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


In article <141659.2B3FA73F@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> 
Harvey Smith writes:

> The purpose of this treatise is to once and for all reveal to all that
> in Biblical times, there was a belief taught about the Almah,virgin,
> amongst the house of Israel and of the tribe of Judah...
...
> The below quotes are taken from the English folio edition of the
> Talmud vol ii p 386...

Who authored the text that was *not* quoted?  That's where
the Christian theology is found, not in the quoted text.

It clearly isn't Talmudic - the gemara doesn't say "and in 
Genesis" or "upon Zecharia" - it just quotes the verse, and
the citation is in the margin.

It doesn't sound modern, either.  In this century, people don't
write "no one hath mentioned ..."

Please clarify.

R



-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Messianic Judaism (inter-marriage)
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:28:18 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


To: Mark Carroll

 In a msg on <Dec 23 12:42>, Mark C. Carroll of 8:7002/6 writes:

 MCC> ] We target sinners, first those who are Jewish and then the 
 MCC> Gentiles.

 MCC> That's part of the proof that you're not Jewish. We don't look at 
 MCC> the people around us as "sinners" who need to be "saved". 
 MCC> That's Christian, not Jewish.

True but its also Messianic Jewish, according to the Tanakh "To turn ungodliness away from Jacob"..  You will find this statement over and over in the Tanakh...

 MCC> Ah. And real Jews have no compassion. Yea, right...

Not true.  Rabbinic Jews have compassion as well as pagans etc.  Compassion depends on ones family upbringing.. Either to be a giver or a taker.

 MCC> I've never known a Jewish synagogue to turn anyone away. I've 
 MCC> never met a Rabbi who won't help a person in need. 

Interesting... Except on the High Holy Days huh...  When if you don't have a ticket too bad...

In fact a Conservative Shul went on record as saying that they were glad we were in existance as we took in the poor who could not afford a ticket to High Holy days at the local Synagogue, and we always advertise Free Seats...

 MCC> judged solely on the basis of their actions during their 
 MCC> lifetime, and that everyone, regardless of whether they are 

True according to Hellenistic Philosophy, but not according to the Torah.
Have you never read Ezekiel, where it plainly states "if you fail to warn the wicked then their blood is required upon you".  Do you remember the story of Jonah, who was sent by God to Ninevah to warn them of impending judgment and told them to repent?????

 MCC> The tactics used the MJ's are very cultic. 

Like what, since i am a MJ Rabbi i would like to know what in the world you are speaking about...

 MCC> how-do-we-raise-the- ]]]children enigma,  MJ seems like the 
 MCC> only religion on earth capable of ]]]supporting both 
 MCC> traditions (sort of, that is).

While we do not support either Jewish religion or Christian religion traditions, we do support Biblical traditions, from the covenants of Moses and Moshiach..

I don't know if i am addressing this to the right person but if not, then Nachas to you.. 
--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Subject: Re: The White Feather Campaign
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 12:06:49 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

The ambitions of the Viertes Reich aside, the interesting
thing is this thread is that a piece of ethnic war propa-
ganda (only Croatians and Muslims are raped; only Serbs do
it, and under orders, too) was immediately turned into a
piece of sex war propaganda (feminists want men to go and
die in Bosnia for nothing).  I guess it's a kind of viral
meme.   
-- 

 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
Newsgroups: alt.feminism