From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: damnation
Date: 16 Oct 92 07:56:32 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <Oct.14.22.10.40.1992.25218@geneva.rutgers.edu>, allan@sunk.hc.ti.com (Allan Poindexter) writes:

> Eric:
>    There is also patristic evidence for purgatory.  It was also a doctrine of
>    the Jews of the time; read Josephus, On Hades:

>    AN EXTRACT OUT OF JOSEPHUS' DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES 

> Josephus is a tenuous connection to the early fathers at best.  Do you (Eric)
> have any actual patristic literature on this?  You usually do and I am a
> little surprised that you didn't use any this time but went with a quote
> from Josephus in stead.

> dex

I have some patristic quotes, but I did not wish to get into a discussion on
purgatory, and I knew clh would nix my post if I neared that.  In the interest
of getting a post through to address the issues I most wanted to address, I
didn't want to write a lot.  Not only that, the patristic evidence I do have
on hand is somewhat late and probably of marginal effectiveness.

Well actually now that I think of it there is a nifty verse in the Teaching of
the Twelve Apostles (early 2nd century):

"'Give to everybody who begs from you, and ask for no return.' For the Father
wants his own gifts to be universially shared.  Happy is the man who gives as
the commandment bids him, for he is guiltless! But alas for the man who
receives! If he receives because he is in need, he will be guiltless.  But if
he is not in  need he will have to stand trial why he receive and for what
purpose.  He will be thrown into prison and have his action investigated; and
'he will not get out until he has paid back the last cent.' (Matt 5:26) Indeed,
there is a further saying that relates to this: 'Let your donation sweat in
your hands until you know to whom to give it.'" (1, 5-6).  Also, "Do not be one
who holds his hand out to take, but shuts it when it comes to giving.  If your
labor has brought you earnings, pay a ransom for your sins.  Do not hesitate to
give and do not give with a bad grace; for you will discover who He is that
pays you back a reward with a good grace." (4,6)

Matthew 5:26 has traditionally been offered by the church in support of
purgatory, though I do not often use it because such a use does not appear
to make much sense at first glance, though as you can see, this is a rather
ancient interpretation.

Eric
--
/===========================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer   For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment, Maynard MA     pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com        they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==========================- 2 Th 2:15 -====================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.

[Where I'll intervene is when we start throwing around mutual insults.
I have no objection to citations of the Fathers on purgatory (or even
other subjects).  The last discussion on purgatory was in June, which
is marginally long enough ago.  Generally I don't have problems with
people clarifying their beliefs or trying to figure out what the basis
is of others.  It's when these become bashing, or when we've recently
discussed the same topic, that I have problems.  --clh]