From: cjs@phy.duke.edu (Carl Schnurr)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: Beer 'n' Pretzel Games
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:12:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.6998
Organization: Duke University Physics Dept.; Durham, N.C.


Several people over the years have asked similar questions to yours 
(including me).  Here's what I could find in my files on the topic.
The original poster's names and questions were removed to huge posting
merely long.  Enjoy!
-Carl

-----

Wiz War (Chessex).  This is the best fantasy game I know, especially with
the expansion set.  Each player is a wizard, and spells are represented
by cards, drawn at random (attack, counteraction, and neutral spells).
Fast action, fun, every game different.

Shanghai Trader (Panther Games).  Cross between Monopoly, Illuminati and
Diplomacy.  Good fun with lots of vices.

Star Traders (SJG).  Different personalities, with different abilities,
compete for trade goods across the universe.  No attacks, as such, but
you can hinder the foe in various fun ways - usually with Arcturian
mites or stealing their codes.

Dark Morn Manor (Pacesetter).  Build the manor and grounds as you go.
One player starts as the minion of the evil power, and the others are
monster-fighters, trying to destroy him.  Changing sides happens a lot in
this game.

Space Empires (Mayfair).  Different races with different abilities vie
for planets.  Combat.

Swashbuckler (Yaquinto).  Bar-room brawl with pirates and musketeers -
good fun for all!

Deep Space Navigator (Tactical Templates).  While this is a wargame, as
such - space ship to space ship combat - the rules are so simple that
people who are not into wargames tend to like it.

-----

Try Tom Wham games. They usually make good beer & pretzels, for Tom doesn't
seem to take gaming too serious. He ususally has some fine, MAD-like
illustrations and also some weird rules or backgrounds making playing real fun.

Kings & Things (GW?) has been discussed here recently and is out of print.
It is a more strategic, and one of the more time-consuming of his games.

The Great Khan Game (AD&D Magic Realms Series) is one of my favourites for
short-term games. It's basically a card game (funny pics) with little room
for fighting (dice). You haaave to control countries and collect the income
for them (most money wins). A game for almost everyone.

Metrwig's Maze (AD&D Magic Realms Series) is a funny treasure hunt with
characters searching for companions on their quest for the items that make
them eligible for inheriting the throne of the dying king Mertwig. There are
lots of cards, chits,  and counters - though the game is rather inexpensive.
So the gameboard is plain paper (but large) and all the other stuff is really
as good as one can expect for the money. (Is for lots of players, 8? or so.)

Another tip is: buy the "Best of the Dragon Magazine" (TSR) it contains another
Tom Wham game with a similar subject as the above ("Search for the Emperor's
Treasure") and comes with some other fine games as "File 13" - Designing
Games and getting them to sale (Totally easy, mostly funny, with contributions
by Tom Wham) and "Food Fight" - Throwing Food at one another in a High-School
Cafeteria (Wonderfull idea, although I don't think it's put into practice
that nicely). I bought this one in Berlin (GER) last year and found it quite
cheap so it shouldn't cost You more than $20 for 6 games in total. (I didn't
play the other three, but maybe they are also fine.)

-----

Campaign Trail and Brotherhood from GDW are good. Brotherhood is quick, 
Campaign Trail you set a time limit at the start. The EMpire Builder
series is also good. Kremlin from AH is reasonably quick. Merchant of 
Venus from AH is good and you can set victory conditions to change the
length of play (we usually finish the game to $4000 in 3 hrs). I would
recommend playing anything before you buy it.

-----

I'd like to plug WRASSLIN and/or ATTACK SUB from Avalon Hill.

Disadvantages: both are 2-player games (WRASSLIN has kludges for more, but
	you get problems).
	Topical.  If you dislike the subject (less a problem for ATTACK
	SUB) you might not like the game.

Advantages: simple rules, good system, short (1/2 hour) games.

WRASSLIN goes for $16, I think ATTACK SUB is higher.

Both are card games, with reference cards tracking info.  WRASSLIN is a
game of pro wrestling - you play attack cards to beat up on your
opponent, or block his attacks on you, or do other nifty things.
ATTACK SUB is either surface ships vs subs or subs vs subs (they have
"scenarios").  You play sonar cards to get a good target - your rating
can go from 0 to 4.  You play attack cards to hit the opponent (better
attack chances require better ratings).  The deck also serves as a source
of random numbers (similar to Up Front, but a zillion times easier).

-----

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Axis and Allies. The best possible light
WWII beer & pretzels game.

-----

Awful Green Things From Outer Space - 2 player fun, monsters trying to
	take over a spaceship vs. the crew.
Hare and Tortoise - 2-6 player race game, very clever, doesn't use dice,
	impossible to master;
Illuminati - 3+ players, tense, fun, exciting, fighting for control of worldwide
	organizations with secret societies.
Cosmic Encounter - 3+ players, weird, fun, simple.  Different alien species
	with different powers battle it out in an abstract universe.
Family Business - 3+ players, fine card game, different gangs in New York
	battling it out.
Elixir - 3-4 players, fun children's gane but easily enough in it
	to be great for adults too; Each plays an alchemist racinf for the
	secret of immortality.

Just about any Tom Wham game - get the boxed set of "Dragon" magazine games
for a selection of sfort, fun games - search for the Emperor's treasure,
food fight, others...

-----

My own personal favorites:
	
	(1) Illuminati
	(2) Britannia  (maybe a bit too wargamey)
	(3) Pit        (maybe a bit too simple, but with a LOT of beer
			can become very funny)
	(4) Fair means or foul 
	(5) Kremlin	(usually played with the in-house vodka rules
			 one shot for the secretary when he waves
			 one shot for everyone when someone goes to the wall
			 one shot for the KGB chief after a purge)
	(6) Awful Green Things from Outer Space
			(Okay so its a two player game but great fun)

-----

The games I also end up playing for small groups and game novices are:

     Illuminati - (The rules aren't that bad and the summary on the last
                   page in the deluxe edition really helps. I find it is
                   easier to explain some of the basics and then do a 
                   couple practice rounds. I've had people play this game
                   who weren't interested at playing at first saying it
                   was too complicated only to stand over us in the end
                   in bloody victory. Good with 4-7)

     Arkham Horror - (Pretty basic board game that allows an introduction
                      to role playing. Good with 3 or more.)

     Swashbuckler - (This is an album game from Yarquinto? of Dallas. It
                     is out-o-print. It is however a good game. Basically
                     you use a tavern which is laid out in a square grid
                     and program the characters to fight each other. Ex.
                     round 1 I right down step forward, slash, throw mug...)

     Tailsman - (Another game which is very quick to learn. Good for
                 3-5)

     Fury of Dracula - (This can be a really fun game. 1 player is Dracula
                        and the rest of the players are vampire hunters.
                        You tromp through Europe looking for the foul
                        creature and run into his evil minions. I found
                        that a few rule modifications may be necessary
                        to keep the game even. Check it out. It is also
                        out of print. Good with 2-4 players.)

     Curse of the
     Mummies Tomb - (This game is okay. Rules may take a little longer
                     to master. Good with 3-4 players.)

     Chaos Mauraders - (Quick card game. Be the first to form three 
                        complete battle lines. Good for 2-4 players. This
                        is definitely a Beer and pretzel game.)

     Deluxe Ogre - (Okay quick tank battle game. One player uses a super
                    tank to break through the enemy lines to destroy
                    the command headquarters. The other player tries to
                    stop this machine-o-destruction. Good for 2 players.)

-----

Some games that were not mentioned that I have enjoyed.
Circus Maximus (Avalon Hill)

Judge Dread (Games Workshop) expensive

Modern Naval Battles (3W)

-----

Well, I looked through all the followups to date and nobody has
mentioned the new Avalon Hill english language release of the 1990
German game of the year, "Adel Verpflichtet".  Up to 5 players advance
around the board by exhibiting their ever-changing antique collections
or by sending detectives to catch the thieves that other players use to
try to pilfer from those collections.  People who don't want a WAR game,
that is, the Monopoly & Clue crowd, will probably like this.  The rules
are on a single sheet of paper and there is no optimal pure strategy.

-----

Some of the B&P games that I've found entertaining, not
overly complex, and yet requiring a little forethought:

  Kingmaker -- Not too long and not too simple, but
               fun never the less.
  Snits Revenge -- 2 player/3 games in an hour.  And
                   the introduction to the rules is
                   a scream!
  Car Wars -- If you don't design your cars, this is a
              real quick game.  Designing your cars
              adds about an hour.
  
-----

>	Flux
Flux is a good game in concept where the object of the game is to control
the most flux points (essentially territory) by casting earth and animate
spells.  The earths define your territory and animates are used to destroy
each other and the earths.  The nice part of this game is you can not
eliminate a players wizard and you really can't take someone completely
out of the game.  Playing time is ~2 hours for a six player game with the
majority of that time being the last 3 turns.  Some things I would like to
change about the game though is unbalancing the advantage of going last in
a round (75% of the games are won by the very last player to move in my
groups) and a change in the movement ability of a wizard (1) with a teleport
spell so you aren't trapped into just fighting your starting neighbors.
>	The Fury of Dracula (or some such name, Steve Hand designed it?)
Haven't played it but the box sure looked interesting.
>	Od
Od is a must have quickie game that anyone can play.  This is a game that
even my family can be convinced to play with me.  The game tends to be
heavily slanted toward luck but has enough card strategy to make it interesting.
Playing time ~20 min per round.  The key to the game is effective use of
your assasins, and thieves to limit your oppenents steal catgories and to
figure out if you should try and steal or draw another card.  On your turn 
you can either play a card and draw a replacement or attempt a steal with
a royality card of your opponents cards.  I recommend 4 players with 2
player teams.  BTW I picked this game up for 2$ in a mall toy store...well
worth it.
>	Red Empire
I would be interested in info on this one also.
>	Can't Stop
Another great family game.  Playing time ~20-30min and usually shorter
if you get lucky.  The whole game comes down to a little luck with the dice.
You roll four dice and have to combine them into two pairs giving you two
numbers (i.e. you could also get two of the same #, dice 1,3,4,6 will produce
a 4,10 or 7,7 or 5,9).  You then move markers up a columns that increase in
length toward the center of the probability distribution.  The hard part is
you can only work on three different noncompleted columns at a time. So if
your numbers to work on are 4,6,7 for example and you roll 4 5's your turn
will end because you can't make a combination that matches.  Here's where
the title of the game comes in...I mean "Hell, I can hit one of those
combinations just one more time"...buzzzzz!  Fun for working on your
probabilities also.  I highly recommend this one for a fun game.
>	Chill
>	Die Macher
>	Discretion
Sorry, haven't played or heard of these.
>	Russian Civil War
Playing time ~3-4 hours.  An all in all fun game but I have trouble finding
players for this one.  The interesting concept in this game is a player can
play both the red and white sides in the civil war scoring points dependent
on who wins.  Typically you see one side is going to win and you sacrifice
all your white leaders to a red army for instance to gain vps. (If you think
red is going to win of course).  Fun things are purges if you control the
politburo and subversive attacks (which are usually more effective than actual
combat).  This game also has lots and lots of random events and chits that
get drawn from a cup (See a game called 'Kings and Things' for chit drawing
frequency!!!).  Historically the game is kinda fun to play but will only be
enjoyed by hard game players compared to the high amount of luck games afore
mentioned.

-----

modern naval battles
nuclear war
circus maximus
dragon master
dune

-----

	Under Cover (Ravensburger)  Everyone is a spy in the German
	  Village chasing after THE SECRET FILE.  The twist is that
	  anyone can move anyone else's piece (since identities are secret).
	  It's very entertaining and suspenseful and you can get a
	  bunch of games under your belt and still have more time to
	  play something else.

	Talisman (Games Workshop)  I don't have the time to get
	  involved deeply in RPG, so this game is the perfect
	  compromise--a board game that is different everytime
	  with superb graphics and mostly without flaws.  This will
	  need a fuller evening to play, but is engaging nevertheless.
	  You definitely can play it while quaffing a few and munching.

-----

  Family Business: Card game involving mobsters & contracts. A 3-F
game: Fast, Furious, and Funny.

  Wiz War: Steal the opponents treasure chests. If he says "over my
dead body", give him his wish. Funnier than Family Business.

  Shogun: Great game when you get a bit more towards the serious side.
Remember your allies can backstab at any time, so prepare your defenses.
Sometimes the best defense is to do onto others before they do onto you.

  games that keep popping up:

  Car Wars: the only thing more fun than seeing if someone doesn't
(or does !) crash & burn trying that 60 degree turn to keep from hitting
that mine counter is watching someone finally show you what flavor
their chewing gum is when they open fire. Half the time the worry you
had ends up to only be a paint sprayer. The other half of the time its
a flame cloud gas streamer.

  Star Fleet Battles/(Boredom ?): the UCSC crew of SFB players aren't
rule lawyers, so I generally have a good time demonstrating that
you should never assume you've got the Klingon on the run. Of course
the other players occaissionally demonstrate that mabye the Klingon
would have been better off if he had just kept running.

  Kings & Things: just started on this silly game, in the same vein
as Divine Right. Bribe monsters into joining your army, and then
pin the opponents dragon army in place with one suicidal buzzard
while you grab all his real estate.
  
  Axis & Allies (or, Allies kick ass on Axis): not played as much
anymore, not since the old crew left. We had some die hards who
routinely took awards at con tourneys showing that yes, the Allies
do have a bit of an edge. Course they weren't all that bad playing
Axis, either, except one member had the School Of Dice Fuck named
after him following an A & A game. After watching 4 tanks and 8
infantry die to 9 Russian grunts, leaving 5 Russian grunts alive,
you'd think he was a graduate. No, after 6 successive air raids
by 5 aircraft on ec-bomb raids (bomber + fighter "soak" escort)
with only one hit you realize he was not only a graduate, he
was a senior professor with tenure at the School Of Dice Fuck.

  Cosmic Encounter: weird game, diplomacy is the key and watching
whoever seems to be the quietist a must. Trying to gain the 
required number of bases is difficult, so most of us go
for mutual victories. One game 4 out of 5 players won, which
tends to keep most people happy.

  Nuclear War: "Such a strange game, professor, the only way to
win is not to play." Nuke the opposition till they glow, then
shoot them in the dark. Watch out for that super-virus, it keeps
popping up like holiday fruit cakes, and is just about as deadly
to organic life ! And just when you think the opposition is toast,
they go and do something anti-social like final strike you !

  Modern Naval Battles: "Whats that Russian Oscar sub doing protecting
that Nimitz class carrier ?" "Sorry, sir, the French destroyer said it 
followed them home and they asked if they could keep it." Fun game, just
don't even think about comparing it to reality !

-----

	--Illuminati
	--Car Wars (the card game--this is for end of the
		evening, when the gang goes from Soda to heavy
duty beer)
	--I guess I mentioned Under Cover, oh yes, this gang
		probably will have a "real-men-don't-eat-quiche"
		reaction to this: Hare & Tortoise, but it's
		definitely fun.
	--Pursue the Pennant goes so quickly that you can really
		get a bunch of these in (but it's one on one).

-----

There's always PigMania, the game where you roll pigs as dice. Depending how
they land, you score points. For extra fun, you can "hog call".

(I'm not joking. This is a real game)

There's also a game published in Dragon Mag. called Claymation, where you make
creatures out of Play-Doh and have attacks such as the rip, the throw, the
drop, the bowl.

-----

Just got a copy of the New World and it seems to fall into this
category. The idea is to colonise the Americas and come to dominate a
large section of them. The combat system is so variable that it is
difficult to take seriously, but with a few beers watching you main
rivals super army destroy itself on a small force of natives would get
very amusing. The vast changes in fortune and the short playing time,
probably <40 min per experienced player make it worthwhile for a Friday
night bash.

-----

I've played _Sorcerer King_ once, and found it to be an
inconclusive game --- after several hours of playing, the game remained
in a stalemate, with no one person clearly leading, no one person
looking like they would soon lead, and no indication that that situation
would ever change. The owner of the game (who had been given it) said
that previous attempts had lead to the same position. It's not
what _I_ would describe a fun beer'n'pretzel game.

-----

Well, it isn't "silly" as such, although it does bear no resemblance to
reality.  "Star Warriors", from West End Games.  This does do a good job
of representing "Star Wars" space combat.  It has several levels of
complexity, and the simplest can be learnt in very little time.  I know
because I took it to a convention and set it up as a public participation
game.  Several people showed up, claiming no former knowledge of the game,

was had by all.

Each player controls one fighter (or perhaps a "wing" of 3 or 4 fighters -
but one ship per player is more fun).  Each turn, you put counters on your
record sheet to show what manoeuvres you intend to make.  Then you roll
dice to see if the pilot successfully completes them all.  If not, a quick
die roll and a look at a table shows what the consequences of the failure
were.  Then the ships move and fire.  Damage is also determined by a single
die roll and a look at a simple table.  All in all, as you said, fast, furious
and fun.

----- 

Wiz War!  Fast-paced, dirty-pool type of game with hundreds of magic
spells.  Each player controls one wizard who owns two treasures.  Each
player has a 5x5 board, which are drawn at random and placed next to each
other.  Seven spell (and number) cards are dealt, high roller goes first,
and every game is wild and different thereafter.  Most of the spells
allow you to hinder your opponents' efforts to get treasure, but some
help you in your quest.  First one to get two treasures (not your own)
back to your home base wins.  Not always easy . . .

Currently out of print, Chessex has bought the rights and it may be out
by now again, though I haven't seen it.  I would appreciate any info on
its republishing - I know *lots* of folks who want a set!

After Wiz War, we've played a variety of games, some with my current
group, some with previous groups.  Ask for fuller descriptions if
something catches your fancy:

Suburban Slasher: Ragnarok games, with 5 or 6 supplements.  Each
character plays a psycho killer from a B-grade movie and vies for victims
from the victim pool.  Truly sick and fun.

Dark Cults: Dark Horse Games.  Actually a two-player game, we simply sit
around the table alternating team-mates.  The two sides are Life and
Death, who try either to preserve or kill the current victim, I mean
Protagonist.  This is a story-telling game, and if you're in the proper
mood, the story is more interesting than the point total!

Star Traders: Steve Jackson Games.  I believe this went out of print,
which is too bad - it's a fun game.  Up to six players, each is a
spaceship captain trying to gain money and prestige enough to become the
Emperor's own personal merchant.  The cards are humorous ("Arcturian
mites eat your cargo" or "Pickup Fungus from Shower" for what cargo -
fungus - from what planet - Shower, etc.) and the players all have
different personalities: Lucky Lou, The Engineer, The Insider, The
Negotiator, etc.

Swashbuckler: long out of print from dead company Yaquinto.  Nothing
quite like a bar-room brawl in the 17th century!  Each player takes one
or two Musketeers or Pirates and fights it out in a free-for-all.  Thrown
beer mugs, tipped tables, chandeliers to swing on, carpets to yank,
chairs to smash over heads - a good time is had by all.  Simultaneous
movements by written orders.

Encounters: out of print from Mayfair.  My current group hasn't played
this yet, but the old group loved it.  A card game of Heroes, Monsters,
and treasures.  Not much thought required, moves fast.

Tunnel Chase: out of print from Fasa.  Scout ships chase each other
through tunnels in an asteroid - free for all.  The board is far too
small, but we made enlargements and pasted them on the back of Cosmic
Encounter boards to make it better.

Deep Space Navigator: from Tactical Templates.  I have no clue if this
company is still in business, but this is an excellent game.  The board
is any large piece of paper - I use 11x17 copies of two of their asteroid
field sheets for greater pleasure.  Space ships are simply drawn on the
paper, represented by a triangle drawn with a plastic template.  The
template is also used to determine movement and range for firing, and the
amount of damage and to which sector of the ship it is taken.  Very well
done, though they could have expanded a lot for an optional version.  As
it is, ship construction and damage results are overly simplistic, but
the movement is the best I've ever seen in any space combat game.
Strictly a shoot-em-up, the game doesn't take too long.  It has, BTW, one
of the worst covers of any game, and is a good reason why game designers
should not design their own covers but hire an artist!

-----
Here's someone elses compilation from another post....

5+ mentions:
Cosmic Encounters [Mayfair] (?, Frank Braham, Rob Granville, John Sheley, John
	Davis, etc)

4 mentions:
Wizwar [through Chessex, $15] (Frank Braham, Steffan O'Sullivan, Ken Yousten,
	Paul Gyugyi)
Kremlin [AH?] (?, Nigel Tzeng, Bruce Gletty, Dave Roe)

3 mentions:
Black Morn Manor [54' 40' Orphyte] (Frank Braham, Steffan O'Sullivan, Ken
	Yousten)
Family Business [Mayfair] (?, Nigel Tzeng, John Davis)
Empire Builder series (Don Hancock, Paul Gyugyi, Bruce Gletty)
Illuminati [Steve Jackson Games] (John Davis, Dave Roe, Andrew Migliore)

2 mentions:
Adel Verplichtet [Avalon Hill, $25] (Frank Braham, Matt Crawford)
Euro-Rails [Mayfair] (Ken Fishkin, Don Hancock)
Tales of the Arabian Nights [? - out of print] (?, Frank Braham)
Elefant Hunt [TSR, Dragon magazine] (Paul Gyugyi, Bruce Onder)
Car Wars [Steve Jackson games] (?, J. Michael Tisdel)
Pit [?] (Rob Granville, Dave Roe)
Modern Naval Battles [3W] (?, Sean Conway)
Kings & Things [TSR] (Paul Gyugyi, Joerg Heuer)
Wabbit's Wevenge [54' 40' Orphyte] (Frank Braham, Paul Gyugyi)
Tom Wham games [TSR, "Best of the Dragon Magazine"] (Joerg Heuer, John Davis)
Circus Maximus [Avalon Hill, $14?] (Sean Conway, Jay Bennett)
Dragon Master [Leow(?)] (?, Rob Granville)
Swashbuckler [Yaquinto - out of print] (Steffan O'Sullivan, Andrew Migliore)

1 mention:
The Challenge [Lion Rampant] (Frank Braham)
Campaign Trail [GDW] (Bruce Gletty)
Liar's Dice [Milton Bradley] (?)
Enemy in Sight (Nigel Tzeng)
Metrwig's Maze [TSR, AD&D Magic Realms Series] (Joerg Heuer)
Shanghai Trader [Panther Games] (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Blood Bowl [GDW] (John Sheley)
Axis and Allies [MB?] (Tom Koziatek)
Car Wars the Card Game (Glenn Host)
The Great Khan Game [TSR, AD&D Magic Realms Series] (Joerg Heuer)
Star Trek The Enterprise Encounter [West End] (Frank Braham)
Wizard's Quest (Rob Granville)
Darkover [Eon - long out of print] (Frank Braham)
Star Traders [SJG] (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Grand Master [MB] (?)
Naval War (Nigel Tzeng)
Junta (Nigel Tzeng)
Diplomacy (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Buck Rogers board game [TSR] (John Sheley)
Space Empires [Mayfair] (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Deep Space Navigator [Tactical Templates] (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Risk (Paul Gyugyi)
Brotherhood [GDW] (Bruce Gletty)
Merchant of Venus [AH] (Bruce Gletty)
Hare and Tortoise (John Davis)
Elixir (John Davis)
Britannia (Dave Roe)
Fair Means or Foul (Dave Roe)
Snits Revenge [TSR] (J. Michael Tisdel)
Arkham Horror (Andrew Migliore)
Talisman (Andrew Migliore)
Fury of Dracula (Andrew Migliore)
Curse of the Mummies Tomb (Andrew Migliore)
Chaos Mauraders (Andrew Migliore)
Judge Dredd [Games Workshop] (Sean Conway)
Kingmaker [AH] (J. Michael Tisdel)
Titan (Paul Gyugyi)
Hero Quest (Bruce Webster)
Castle Risk, using house rules (Paul Gyugyi)
Acquire (Eric Haines)
Railway Rivals (Eric Haines)


Two player games with more than one vote:
Awful Green Things [TSR] (Paul Gyugyi, John Davis, Dave Roe)
Deluxe Ogre [Steve Jackson Games] (Andrew Migliore, Bruce Webster)


-- 
	Carl J. Schnurr					1-919-684-8256
	Duke University Dept. of Physics        	cjs@phy.duke.edu
	Durham, N.C.      27706			
Newsgroups: rec.games.board