From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: re: continuation on Cyprus
Date: 18 Dec 1992 23:23:14 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

(Sorry this is long again but Sophia Yasemin is still asleep :-))
> >Ok, Okan, tell me just ONE thing here. You keep writing about ENOSIS
> >and the such, and hell, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and
> >believe you, that, indeed, the GC's wanted ENOSIS more than anything
> >else...
> 
>    You don't have to give me the benefit of doubt for that. ENOSIS (union
> of Cyprus with Greece) was and is still a live fact. If you are ignorant
> enough to see the fact that significant Greek Cypriot majority wants union
> with 'mother' Greece, then hell, plug your ears too.

What is the fact? Sampson may have been an idiot or a pawn, just like many
people who start wars. Whoever started the war against Turkey in 1922,
the Japanese in WW2, Saddam, etc were all in the same group. Does it mean
that they represent the will of the people?

I understand your reason to be concerned. But remember, just like the
Gray Wolf guy in Turkiye does not represent the WHOLE of Turkiye, Sampson's
supporters probably did not represent the WHOLE of Greek Cypriots. 

You assume that people always agree with their leaders. That's a big
assumption, and most likely, an incorrect one. Or, reversed, that the
leaders, elected or otherwise, represent the people. 

> >So, tell me, Okan, why in the world would they want Enosis? To get
> >stuck with the Greek Bureaucracy, taxes, laws, etc?
> 
>     Does 'Megalo Idea' ring a bell for you, Spiro?

Any Greek Cypriot thinking that Cyprus could get away with it would
belong in the same shit-for-brains pot with Saddam's advisors who thought
they'd win the Gulf War. 

You keep speaking about ENOSIS. How'bout the TRNC's desire to unite
with Turkiye. Remember my (yet to be answered) post suggesting ways TRNC
could be better recognized by the world ?  (i.e. if it started behaving
like a real nation as opposed to a protectorate?). 

Even if you're Turkish Cypriot (or Turkish) you got to start thinking
RATIONALLY. As a scientist/engineer, you should always look for a
reason behind peoples' actions. I presented evidence stating that 
from my experience Greek Cypriots seemed to have it a lot better than
Greeks, and that it would not do them any good to be united with Greece.
You respond with the canned response of ENOSIS, MEGALI IDEA, and the
such. Well, Sorry, Okan, I can't accept it. I just CAN't. 

At some point in life you have to stop believing what you're fed. 
If I were told for 18 years that the guys on the other end are my
enemies, etc. I would not have feelings much different than yours.
But THINK for a moment. 

Imagine the situation now. Even with 80,000 settlers, I'd venture to
say that the standard of living in TRNC is quite superior to the one
in Turkiye. (Think of all the Turkocypriots living in homes donated
by Greek Cypriots, working donated land, ...). Would they want to
be joined with Turkiye? 

Emotionally, maybe. Practically, financially, the answer is HELL NO,
otherwise it'd have happened by now. Turkiye has demonstrated it is
not concerned with UN resolutions (at least where it suits her). 

As a side note, if anyone has figures for standard of living in 1974
and now, i'd appreciate it. Simple things, not Arxid-isms.

And look at it a bit more from the Greek side. To me, if I were male
from 18 to 50, any effort towards ENOSIS would result in me being
drafted to the front line, as only 3 year olds would expect that armed
conflict would NOT be an immediate result. Why would I want to put my
head in the oven? For who? Someone who speaks a language similar to mine
and  who I get to see once a year when making a duty free trip? Culture
links are OK till you realize it's YOUR head. To use another Arxid-ism
(Arxidia?) I may be 'palik' but I'm not stupid.

> >The ones I met had a very distinct Cypriot identity. I had a couple
> >of roommates from Cyprus for a while, and they were all quite a bit
> >serious about studying (their grades reflected that). The Turkish
> >Cypriots we met at school were also that (shit their math was good!)
> >and we all seemed to get along quite well...
> 
>     You are contradicting yourself Spiro. There has never been a single
> distinct Cypriot nation in the history of earth, Spiro. Yes, the people
> who live in Cyprus are called Cypriots, just like the ones in Macedonia
> are Macedonians, but as far as the nations are concerned, there are two
> distinct, totally different and well identified nations in Cyprus: 

True. The Turkish Cypriots I met are not like Greek Cypriots, and vice
versa. I would venture to say that if either side knew what was coming,
they'd probably partition the island equitably and get it over with (which
of course is what TRNC wanted in the first place, TAKSIM). 

What I point out here is that the Greek Cypriots I met had no illusions, 
dreams of enosis, or megali idea in their (well planted) heads. They were
Greek Cypriots, not Greeks. 

> Turkish Cypriots and the Greek Cypriots. I hope you don't need to see any
> proof to realize that Cyprus has two independent sides, administrations,
> peoples, cultures, and everything else. You just can't make it one by
> forcibly saying it over and over. Just open your Webster's Dictionary, look
> under N/n and find 'nation'. You will hopefully read the following:

The administration setup contained enough loopholes, giveaways, and quotas
to be rendered useless. You write about fair treatment. The 17% minority
ended up getting 30% or more of government jobs, etc. Look at it OBJECTIVELY
for a moment in a country like the US, and see how far you'll go.

You would not doubt that African Americans were put at great
disadvantage and it took great civil rights efforts to give them equal
rights.  Some believe quotas are the only way to correct the injustices
of the past. Yet the data available suggests that quota gives the
feeling of reverse discrimination to many non-minorities, hence
cultivating conflict even more. 

If you believe various quota figures set in the US are excessive, how about
quota bills that cast in stone that government jobs are assigned from
30 to 50% to a 17% minority? How about veto power that was used to render
the entire government (for what it was worth) useless?

What would happen if, during the LA riots, rioters occupied Bel Air,
killed/expelled the rightful owners (claiming injustice all along) and
then took over their businesses, houses, cars, and property, never
allowing any kind of legal process for the rightful owners to either
receive their property back or receive fair market compensation?

> Now I ask you. Where is the politically organized 'Cypriot' nation? Where is
> the SINGLE community of people which is composed of Turkish Cypriot and Greek
> Cypriot nationalities possesing a 'more or less defined territory and
> government' 

Why did all sides agree to it when Cyprus become independent? Many of the
same people who agreed to it are still around today. How did the people
get along under the various occupiers of the island for the last couple
of thousand years?

> Need I go on? You don't need to be at 'delco' to understand
> some common sense and see the facts, Spiro. 

Delco makes automotive electronics, not political scientists. Cheap
shot, but since it's the only one of your message I'll let it pass.
I *did* appreciate the rest of your message(s) by the way.

> Plus, your being from Greece
> puts you at some significant disadvantage in understanding Cyprus issues.

Yes and No. I've demonstrated willingness to listen, be objective, rational,
and free of any prejudice. I have no financial, emotional, or otherwise
links with Cyprus or Turkiye. I have no problem admitting mistakes of the
Greek side. I have no problem listening to solutions. I might have been
exposed to a bit more information had my family home been donated to some
settler, or if my brother was missing, but that would also increase my
emotions. 

You assume that because I'm from Greece, every other word I say is Enosis
and every third and fourth is Megali Idea. Well, not so, Okan. I've
demonstrated willingness to look for a solution that is fair and equitable.
The TRNC side has only demonstrated that it can pump up its people (i.e.
Besime Erin) with booklets, leaflets, and 80% majorities for 20 years.

I have written enough material to piss off Greek Cypriots, though most
are nice enough and have not flamed me for it. How far away have you
strayed from the 80% majority line?

I can appreciate the fact that Cyprus is not Lebanon although it came 
(and still is) very close to being that. Obviously the Turkish Cypriot
side has had it good enough so they don't want to change the status quo.
But get down and see all this from people's side of view. Much of the
40% of land occupied by the settlers/turkish army did belong to someone
else... The roof under which many of you are sleeping was paid for by
someone else. You receive lots of money from Turkiye to sustain TRNC's
nonexisting economy. 

The issue, Okan, is not ENOSIS or TAKSIM or any other bullshit like
this; the issue not simply two communities which for better or worse
are separated; the issue is that one community simply uses pretenses
to ask a 'helpful' neighbor to invade/intervene (to use yet another
Arxid-ism) and help carry the loot. If there is one picture that
the 'fascist' TV showed us from the Turkish invasion that has
stayed in my mind since 1974, is a crew of settlers pulling out
an ELEVATOR from a downtown building. They weren't repairing it...

Turks (and Greeks, and many other nations) have shown that hard work
pays off. One works the land, a small tourist shop, a taverna, or
as a minor bureaucrat, and, G*d Willing, buys a little house and lives
happily ever after. Turkish Cypriots, under the pretense of oppression,
and under the wings of the 'motherland', preferred wholesale armed
robbery to 'rectify past injustices'. 

Sure, if I had 'inherited' someone else's house/land/business, had a
couple of settlers for dirt cheap wages to help me run it, and had
to make sure I get to stay that way, I'd vote Denktash till his bones
disintegrate. (I'd vote for Besime after that). And I would do nothing
to change the status quo. Just like you seem bent on doing.

It all depends on whether you enjoy being freeloading whiners or a people
willing to stand up on their own two feet (sans the Turkish training wheels).

The choice is yours.

Spiros Triantafyllopoulos