From: sjayanth@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Satyanand V. Jayanthi)
Subject: hyderabadi muslims, patriotism etc.,.
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 02:05:01 GMT

From Chukka Srinivas...

In article <1992Dec18.091514.604@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> sjayanth@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Satyanand V. Jayanthi) writes:
>From Chukka Srinivas...
>

::Maybe, you are reading too much into what I wrote.
::In a different section, you DO agree that your middle class
::status did influence your perceptions about patriotism.
::That's all my point is.
::So, rather than getting into
::this meaningless discussion about 'who is more patriotic?'
::concentrate on addressing real issues -like improving 
::living conditions and building up economic security among
::people - and then these questions about national loyalty and
::patriotism make sense. 

I dont think the debate started of so as to decide who is more patriotic and to
finally award medals. The whole point of discussion is that there have been
communal riots, that there is a mutual trust lacking between the country's
main religious groups. I ventured to suggest that many hindus(including myself)
have a perception that many Muslims are not loyal to the country .. i have gone
ahead and enumerated some reasons why it is that people could be feeling that
way. I hope the debate makes more sense to you now...


::
::I am not talking about any leader's nobler thoughts.
::I am talking about how common people like me start to 
::identify with the concept of nation.
::Patriotic feelings are neither inborn nor do they dawn
::upon us on one fine morning.
::

Right. patriotic feelings are neither inborn nor do they dawn upon us one
fine morning. Infact we are "trained" to be patriotic. And left alone,
we could be having one of the following feelings towards the country:

1. Disinterest. Look after oneself. Basically take it easy. 
2. Loyality. This is the equivalent to patriotism.
3. Hatred / Antipathy / loyality to some other country.

1. Disinterest is probably the most probable thing that could happen to an 
individual who is not "trained" to patriotic. So, when you talk about a
common man not identifying with the country, since the country does not
appeal to him emotionally, he would be looking after himself, not bothering 
much about other issues, and certainly would not be moved by any issue 
concerning the country. Infact most of the people, inspite of all the trai-
ning that they receive to be "patriotic" are this way, their commitment
to the country being only in words. 

2. Loyality..we can say that the people who make sacrifices, take more than
an active interest in the country's affairs, who genuinely are moved by the
issues concerning the country..etc ., are loyal to the country. More loyal
than, say, the first category.

3. Hatred / Antipathy/ Loyality to some other country. These feelings can be
expected when the person identifies the country to be the cause of a major
injury to him. The other possible reasons are..an identification with some
other country (for whatever reason)..and subscription to an ideology, to which
his state is an opponent.

People in the category three are not the kind of people who do not have any
"incentive" to identify themselves with the country. They are not the "common
men" who are basically tending to themselves, with no time for some abstract
notions like loyality to the nation, patriotism etc. They are well capable
of loyality to the country, and they chose not to be for a variety of reasons.
And, when they are not loyal to the country, either they should leave the
country or stay as say people belonging to category one do- lead their
own lives. At the present stage of our civilisation, with the present 
understanding of the notion of nation-state, that is how it is supposed to be.
And the distrust of many hindus about many muslims is not that they are in
category 1, but that they are in category 3. If, due to whatever reasons a
section of muslims feel loyal to pakistan, why do they stay here? Why cannot
they go to pakistan? The problem is not that they are more attached to another
country, the problem is that inspite of that loyality, they continue to stay
here. I hope i made myself clear. If they are loyal to another country, go to
that country..do not stay back and keep expressing loyality to the other
country.


::>country itself....I think the problem in india is that a few people are
::                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
::>stuck up at the stage of religious loyality and another few who have
::^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
::>outgrown nationalistic feelings...

::
::I think it is much more than a 'few people'.
::And a majority of these people are non-muslims.

 If that is the case, the loyalities of these people should be to their
religion..not to some other country. If the religion makes them feel more
loyal to the other country, they should go there. In this case, had these
muslims who feel so loyal to their religion (which you say is not inacceptable)
kept their loyality just to their religion it is perfectly fine. But
unfortunately, if this loyality to religion means loyality to another country,
then it is not acceptable. 


::>defined as patriotism. If it is loyality to his caste, it is casteism, if
::>it is to some religion or region it is fanaticism and regionalism. And i am sure that out
::>of these three ie., patriotism, casteism and religious fanaticism, only patriotism
::>enjoys some respect.


::For somebody to substitute his age-old loyalities with
::the newer ones, however respectable and nobler they may be,
::there has to be sufficient reason for him to see that it
::is in his own interest do so.
::(I do not expect an ordinary landless laborer to talk
::with same passion as an ordinary middle class person
::about patriotism and nation.)

Yes, neither should i expect that. Similarly i will not expect an impoverished
muslim to say jaihind all the time. All i expect is that he will not say
jai pakistan and continue to stay here.

::I repeat this. In a feudal society like ours, this question
::really becomes important.
::
::WITHOUT any substantial improvement (for that matter, it worsened)
::in the material basis for such a change, Indian muslims are being
::unfairly asked to do so than Indian Hindus or any other religious
::minorities are.

No sir, you got it wrong. Indian muslims are not being asked to do something
extraordinary. All they have been asked to do is to stop their love affair
with pakistan. They are not asked to celebrate when india scores a point. They
are asked *not* to celebrate when india loses a point.

::(An Indian Hindu does not have to come in conflict with his religious
::loyality to oppose Pakistan. For that matter, in some cases thier Hindu
::religion loyality further enforced thier oppostion to Pakistan.) 

Does this mean that you agree that for many muslims, their faith is making
them more loyal to pakistan? In that case, why do they still stay in india?

::In both the countries, the majority became suscipicious
::of the specfic minority loyalities. And at each or every
::occasion (like even a simple cricket match), they are asked
::to undergo this litmus test. This has only contributed to
::further misunderstanding in either communities.
::(Hindus in Pakistan may be undergoing thru same, type of
::unfair scrutiny). Pakistan being an Islamic state and
::the two wars we had with Pakistan has further worsened
::Indian muslim problems.

I repeat. No one asked anyone to start demonstrating their loyality to India.
It is that the people who are demonstrating loyality to someother country are
asked not to do so. 



::There are much more bigger issues like illitreacy, poverty,
::malnutrition, infant mortality, economic development....... 
::By addressing these issues, we can show our patriotism.

I agree. 

::Not through flag waving, be of it any kind.
::And not thru branding somebody as less patriotic.

Thats again very true. To make myself very clear ....A person who waves
an indian flag might not be patriotic, but a person who waves a pakistani
flag, when pakistan and india for all practical purposes are enemy countries
is definitely unpatriotic. What i am asking is that people should desist
from pakistani flag waving. I am not asking them to start waving indian flag.

::>Can we now report that there some people in india who stay india, get all
::>the benifits they can think of as a religious minority and still support
::     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
::>other countries on many issues just because they are their co-religionists?

::
::
::Show me an average muslim who got benefited because of belonging
::to a religious minority. Let's not talk about non-issues.

He might not be getting any economic benefit. It is not that the GOI is
distributing money among muslims...For that matter pakistan does'nt do that
too. My problem is that why do they stay in india, if they are so emotionally
attached to pakistan..that is all.

::
::-srinivas.


Again to summarise, no one is asking them to prove the loyality of any group
to the country. All i am asking is that there should not be loyality to the
other country (an enemy country)..and why do i ask this? because there have
been quite a few instances when they have demonstrated so...That you have
chosen to participate in this debate so far, i assume is your acceptance 
that there have been demostrations...and that the issue is whether they
are disloyal or loyal inspite of it.

-Narain.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian