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SCA Digest                  Mon,  7 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 607 

Today's Topics:
                        Town Battle at the War
               History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
                      Prince of Thieves Wrongos
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Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 22:13:10 GMT
From: "A.J.S. Nusbacher" <aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Subject: Town Battle at the War
Message-Id: <Bu8B1z.LCM@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <715836061.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:

>How about constructing towers, like unto the towers that lifeguards 
> use?  What with structures already being part of the battle, one 
> more should not create a problem.

How about armouring the marshals who are in the thick of things?

Aryk

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 92 22:09:17 GMT
From: "A.J.S. Nusbacher" <aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Subject: History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
Message-Id: <Bu8AvI.L8M@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep6.195201.8461@odin.diku.dk> rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen) writes:

>... I've been browsing on the
>Rialto for the year and more we've recieved it here in Denmark, and I've
>been saddened to note the vigour of the historical reenactment movement.

You play your game, Hans.  Let us re-enactors play ours.

>If anything it seems to me that an insistence on historical correctness
>will drive out the dreamers. And if things develop to a point where a
>split becomes inevetable (note the if), then I think you should remember
>that the dreamers were there first.

The split is there already, and there are dreamers on both sides, thank you.

Aryk Nusbacher

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 92 22:26:22 GMT
From: "A.J.S. Nusbacher" <aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Subject: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
Message-Id: <Bu8Bnz.LoM@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <199209071750.AA07512@meryl.csd.uu.se> vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:

>Greetings from William de Corbie!
>
>Costner "Robin Hood" errors:

What's the point?  It's fiction!

One of the joys of writing or producing fiction is that you can have manhole
covers when you want them, and executioners can use anvils, and you can call
the Seljuk Turks "Turks".  If you're going to go after that sort of thing, you
can knock Bill Shakespeare for having clocks striking in ancient Athens.

>Not only did "Prince of Thieves" have a bad cast -- the story
>is also full of errors.

Bad cast?  It had Sean Connery AND Brian Blessed!  They could have cast
Pee Wee Herman as Robin and still had a good cast!

>Robin's father writes a letter asking news of his son; the
>hand is clearly a 19th century chancery-style script, very
>different from the bastarda or minuscules a real 12th century
>writer would have used.

And -- sacre bleu! -- it was written in English!

>When Robin's father rides out, he is overwhelmed by some
>20 men on foot. A mounted knight could easily have broken
>through such a skirmish line, killig a couple, and escape.

Thus providing a quick ending to the story, and saving us from hearing the
Sherriff of Nottingham explain to Guy of Gisborn why he wanted to cut Robin
Hood's heart out with a spoon.  Bad trade.

Nottinghamshire didn't have its own sherriff, either.

>If you have spotted any other stupid wrongos, do tell.

While I do appreciate the game of finding wrongos in "historical" flicks,
there also has to be a line drawn between fact and fiction.  Did Macbeth
murder King Duncan in his sleep?  Not likely.  Big deal.

The _Skeptical Inquirer_ published a review of the recent film _Flatliners_
in which it castigated the movie for poor representation of near death
experiences.  The SI was also missing the point that fiction is a sort of
white lie -- it entertains, and sometimes even tells the truth, by telling
untruths.

Aryk Nusbacher

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 15:03:49 pst
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SCA Digest                  Sat,  5 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 601 

Today's Topics:
                     Period Music, Bad German?!?
 Simi-combatants(Re: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the
                 Inspiration (was Re: consort gender)
                        A thought about Rialto
        safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
   Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
        safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
                         safety for marshals
            Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
                             period songs
                 Inspiration (was Re: consort gender)
        safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
                 A request for a bit of help (2 msgs)
                 Inspiration (was Re: consort gender)
                             period songs
   Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
                             period songs
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 19:42:10 PDT
From: helm@garnet.ucdavis.edu
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Period Music, Bad German?!?

Nein nein nein, Aryk.  Nicht das gut ist.  Es ist nicht "er hat
das Wort humpty-dumptiet."  Es ist: "er hat das Wort humptlichdumptiet."
Schuld...

And now returning to our regularly scheduled venacular...

Ok, ok, I too will stomp boldly where angels not only fear to
tread, but them there angels are smart...they took the bus to the
next county days ago!

I will pick some nits (but remember, one must wait until those
nits are really ripe before picking  ;-)  A period song for me
is one that was written in period, both words and music.  This
means, folks, that there are damn few around.  I would dig out my 
sources (some of which Sarra already posted), but I haven't the
foggiest which box they're in (no, I'm not unpacked yet...I've been
sloughing, ok?  Anything wrong with a little leisure?  I can't remember
the last time I've ever been able to just sit around and do NOTHING).
I myself really go in for the minnesinger stuff, some of which is
very satirical and toungue-in-cheek  (Ruthenthal comes to mind as
an example...hope I spelled that right)

The thing is, period melody sounds different.  Much of it is modal
or pentatonic, without a certain tonal center.  Melodies resolve
stangely to the modern ear.  Modern melody, on the other hand,
sounds "right" (for the most part...I'm not going to confound my
own argument by mentioning someone like Ives...)  Modern melody
is mostly characterized by equel temperment, harmonic progression,
has a defined scale type, and (in the case of folk melody) usually
resolves to a third, fifth, or tonic of the key.  (How's that for
gross generalization?!  Before you break out those flame throwers,
I'll warn you that I have my Piston's Harmony open beside me...figures
that I'd find Piston's Harmony, and none of the really good books on
early music...)

The point is, it's not really that hard to learn the difference between
period and modern melody.  You go to the library and take out all the
books with period melodies in them.  The medieval stuff will sound
way different from the renaissance stuff, which will sound more 
familiar.  Both are different from 18th, 19th and 20th century folk
music.

I myself would call a song written with period-style words and 
period-style music, no matter how good, a period re-creation.  It's the 
difference between a real antique and a reproduction.  I've never seen
it done myself.  I think if I ever met someone who really succeeded, I
would drag them bodily to the edge of the laurel's council, and throw
them bodily in, with a note attached that said "Here - this is yours!"

I must confess, I think we don't do period music very well out here
on the left coast (with the exception, of course, of Joslin and crew).
I have become resigned to perioid-to-modern words set to modern music.
I think of the sorts of music I hear around the SCA to be in the "SCA
music genre".  It keeps me sane, and keeps me from having authenticity
attacks at people who don't know any better and are having fun.  (A 
rabid Twcs at your bardic circle could ruin your whole evening...)

I've never heard "Born on the Battlefield", so I can say nothing on it.
I have heard "Herald's Lament", and "The Champion", and their ilk, and
I'm afraid I lump them into the perioid catagory.  The sentiment is too
SCA or too 19th-century neo-ramantic, and the music is modern folk.
But hey, I'm a self-confessed music snob!  When I want SCA-genre, I go
to a Bardic.  When I want early music, I go hang out with my early music
friends from the early music workshop at Dominican College.  The twain
hardly ever meet, at least in this Kingdom.

I can't really dump too much on SCA-genre music.  I go to bardics.  Once
in a blue moon, I can be persuaded to sing some (*gasp*) filk.  I enjoy
a lot of the music written in the SCA.  But I've never deluded myself 
that it was period reproduction music.  I suppose I am suffering from a
surfeit of musical education (which is probably the case - I come from
an overly musical family) that probably prevents me from kicking 
entirely back and enjoying music in the SCA; or to paraphrase Kirkegard
(I spelled that wrong, didn't I?), ignorance is bliss...   ;->

As soon as I find my early music refs, I will post the more accessible
of them up.

Twcs (running for cover, or at least after the bus to the next 
county...)

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:39:19 GMT
From: Robert E Day <rday@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: The Ohio State University
Subject: Simi-combatants(Re: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.173919.9660@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <Bu159J.Dv0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (
thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
>   At Pennsic, at least over the last couple of years, the only battle
>where "semi-combatants" were allowed was the woods battle, where scouts
>were allowed. Anyone else was either a fighter or a non-fighter.
>

I beg to differ, until this year, there were no restrictions on the the of
"scouts" in any of the battles. His Grace Talymar _had_ been using a scout in
our household as a banner bearer for the previous 12 years. This year, they
were no longer allowed to carry a banner, nor to particapate in any battle
other than the woods.
-- 
If the price that I must pay to obtain my *  Robert E. Day/Syr Otto von    *
freedom, is to acknowledge that the Gov-  *  Schwartzkatz, Shire Mugmort   *
ernmet was granted the power to infringe  *  Barony Middle Marches,        *
on them, then I am not free. Paul Anderson*  Middle Kingdom                *

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 17:20:50 GMT
From: Linda Levy <lindal@goddess.asd.sgi.com>
Organization: sgi
Subject: Inspiration (was Re: consort gender)
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.172050.1419@odin.corp.sgi.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <8adQ02aK20we01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams) writes:
|> In article <8419@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> zebee@ucs.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone) writes:
|> 
|> >I always wondered what to do about the "inspiration" problem.  I'm not
|> >in a "relationship" same sx or otherwise, so if I wanted to compete
|> >in Coronet, what do I do to avoid doing violence to this concept - a concept
|> >I enjoy *because* it is so high medieval?
|> 
|> >I don't want to just wander up to someone and say "Hey, can I fight
|> >for you in Coronet".  If I win the damn thing I want to be able to 
|> >crown the person who *inspired* me to win, the person I really 
|> >*wanted* to put on the throne.
|> 
|> This is a tricky question. One of my squire brothers won't fight in Crown
|> or Coronet for just this reason: he has no one who truly inspires him to
|> fight. This year is the first year I've had someone I love to fight for,
|> and so far he hasn't been able to come to Crown or Coronet to inspire me,
|> so I can't tell you the difference yet. :-) I overheard a comment made
|> by Duke Jade, the first time he fought for Duchess Shaheena, said with
|> shining eyes and happy face, that it made such a difference fighting for
|> someone you really loved.
|> 
|> Branwen ferch Emrys
|> The Mists, the West
|> 
|> 
|> --
|>                                           Karen Williams
|>                                           branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
|> "Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
|>   -- Brat Pack #3


Greetings

I've had sinilar problems on the "inspiration" question. I've had
 gentleman that I don't know walk up to me the eveing before a crown
 and ask if they could fight for me. Is it better to tactfully turn 
them down, or assume that they are, in fact, inspired by me, and let
 them fight. I would have problems with the latter, due to the oath of invocation where we swear to serve if we win. How do I know if I would 
be ABLE to serve with this person? Am I taking the whole thing too 
seriously?  Any suggestions?

Linda of the lakelands (west)
lindal@asd.sgi.com

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 17:42:20 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <1992Sep04.174220.26460@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!  Charles Clark wrote:

> My idea is to make the Rialto "slightly moderated," in that it could
> have subject-area moderators... If we had a question, we could send it to
> that person, who would either send us a reply or post the question and
> optional commentary.

I think this already happens, to a certain degree: Many people here make a
point of watching for questions in specific areas, which they answer
quickly and authoritatively.  Tibor for details of Corpora, Thora on fiber
science and Viking culture, Strykar on military strategy, etc.  Those of us
who have been around for a while know who is likely to give the best reply;
I know that I often hold off on posting to wait for one or two people to
make their contributions first.  On the flip side, I often receive
questions about points of heraldry from people on the Rialto; some of them
I simply answer, others I direct back to the Rialto or the heralds' mailing
list. 

It might be helpful to encourage people to try to get answers to their
questions by direct mail before posting to the entire newsgroup, and if you
want to compile an "expert list" to be included in the FAQ (or something
like that), it might be helpful.  For example, it would be particularly
useful if there were someone who would volunteer to take questions about
"what group is in this area?" or "is there an event in this area on
such-and-such weekend?"  However, I doubt that an informal arrangement is
going to make a major difference.  As several people noted, the Rialto is
already a group with a notably high signal-to-noise ratio.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 18:50:56 GMT
From: "A.J.S. Nusbacher" <aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Message-Id: <Bu2Hox.6DA@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1888qgINN3mv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:

>(An aside:  Can anyone tell me why, with most of the US in a temperate
>to subtopical climate, black armor is so popular?  Or does testosterone
>poisoning affect the parts of the brain controlling common sense?)

Maybe it's 'cause armour in the Middle Ages was frequently black.

Is there a widespread problem of marshals getting clocked?  I've only seen
it once.  The fighter was asked afterwards why he kept laying about the
marshal (Laurelen Darksbane it was) with a polearm.  His reply:  "He wouldn't
go down".  I suspect that a bit of training would be worth any amount of
bright orange cloth.  Somebody made reference to people being told to "hit
anything with blue tape".  That's the sort of thing that can be done away
with.  Teaching marshals to duck would be good too.

Aryk Nusbacher

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 92 18:12:38 GMT
From: Dani Zweig <dani@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Subject: Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
Message-Id: <kxmnk-a.dani@netcom.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

DICKSNR@qucdn.queensu.ca (Sarra Graeham, courtesy of Lord Angus):
>The results of this research?  I do not know of a single English song be-
>fore 1610 which exhibits a supernatural worldview outside the Christian
>one.  I have not found a single English song which speaks of an individual
>by name; although the Renaissance songs frequently address a woman...

I'm going to nit-pick at some of Sarra's details while agreeing with her
general thesis.  Looking at early English ballads (which is to say, 
those of the sixteenth century), we find specific names often enough,
in ballads such as Andrew Barton, and John Dory.  And tales of an historical
battle (such as Chevy Chase/The Hunting of the Cheviot) will often
yield sizable role-calls.

The point about the supernatural is on firmer ground:  Ghosts and witches
and revenants were an obsession of eighteenth century balladry.  Elements
of fantasy or generally reliable indicators that a song is out of period.
(A couple of qualifiers.  First, the odd dragon is allowed, but not
considered fantasy.  Second, so is the odd Elf, but these are creatures
of the Devil, and should not be confused with Tolkien-type Elves.  (Come
to that, dragons are also associated with the devil.))

That said, I have to agree strongly with the more general argument.  It's
hard to identify the precise combination of musical conventions, word
choices, themes, and sensibilities that makes a song 'period-sounding',
but one learns to recognize it.  When you've listened to enough period
music, and read enough period song, modern folk-songs stop sounding
authentically period.  After a while longer, eighteenth-century folk songs
stop sounding period.  The problem with most 'period-sounding' songs
is that those presenting themselves are often fooling themselves.

-----
Dani of the Seven Wells
dani@netcom.com

Roses red and violets blew
  and all the sweetest flowres that in the forrest grew -- Edmund Spenser

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 1992 18:10:23 GMT
From: "Michael A. Chance" <bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu>
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Message-Id: <1888qgINN3mv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Hallo!,

I think that a large part of the problem with marshalls getting swung at
(and thankfully it's a VERY small problem) is the "standard uniform" of
the marshallate.  Most marshalls (but  certainly not all) wear a black
tabard with the crossed yellow swords on it.  Swords tend to be
somewhat hard to see on any constrasting field, and yellow on black is
not real high on the visibility charts (black on yellow is, which is why
road signs use it).  Plus, a high percentage of the fighters on the
field tend to also be wearing black, making instant identification all
the more difficult.

(An aside:  Can anyone tell me why, with most of the US in a temperate
to subtopical climate, black armor is so popular?  Or does testosterone
poisoning affect the parts of the brain controlling common sense?)

If the marshallate wants to be easily distinguished from the combatants,
they should be wearing something that is easily visible and instantly
distinguished from anything that most combatants would wear.  Reversing
the current  marshall's badge is a good possible suggestion (ie, black
swords on yellow).

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 17:53:28 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: safety for marshals
Message-Id: <1992Sep04.175328.20709@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!  Aldric wrote:


> and in another article, someone (bother! didn't save it) mentioned
> that small orange trianges are used and black and yellow spiraled
> staves for marshals....
> 
> ...so what else is used in the other laural kindoms and would it be
> possible to come up with some sort of 'standard' to be used
> everywhere?  and how hard would this be?

Why do we need a standard?  Currently, the system is fairly clear: Anyone
on the field who isn't in armor isn't a legal target.  Are there many cases
of marshalls and scouts being hit by fighters?  Is there really a problem
here to be solved?

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:13:47 GMT
From: "Edward V. Wright" <ewright@convex.com>
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Subject: Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
Message-Id: <ewright.715634027@convex.convex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Vajk writes:

>I have heard of attempts (at other events) to keep the late-night camps
>separated from the quieter camps.  Anyone know if this would work at Pennsic?
>I've never heard whether the attempts were successful in any regard at all.

I may be mistaken, but I believe I read somewhere in the Pennsic 
information booklet that quiet hours began at midnight.  Obviously,
if this was the case, it was not enforced.  No rule will be effective
in maintaining quiet unless it is obeyed.

There was a designated "quiet end" of the camp at Steppes Warlord
this year.  I'm not sure how much effect this had, but the camp did 
seem a bit quieter than the year before when the (by common reputation)
loudest household set up tents right smack in the middle of camp.

-- Nicholas van Leyden

 

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:14:29 GMT
From: Jeff Sussman <sussman@socrates.umd.edu>
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Subject: period songs
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.191429.27867@socrates.umd.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings!

>I think there is a terminology problem getting in the way of this 
>exchange.  Julitta lists the following songs from her repertoire and 

>Of these, the only one that is period, according to Julitta's notes, is
>the last.  Others are about period incidents or people, but that does *not*
>mean the song is period.  A song is composed of, among things, language
>and music; you can tell a period story in a very non-period way, and you
>can tell non-period stories in period ways.  What was under discussion here
>was the authenticity of the *songs*.

Under this definition of period you make it impossible to compose new material
that is period.  For my own definition of period, a song that is composed and
presented exactly in a period fashion is period.  If I make a replica of a
period pavillion, using period tools and period materials I call it a period
pavillion.

>I have never heard Julitta perform and certainly pass no judgement on her;
>I just think people are operating under two different definitions of period.
>"Period in feel" and "period" are different, and I am sure that 
>misunderstandings can be avoided in the future by using the correct term.

I could listen to _Born On The Listfield_ over and over and ....

Richard Fitzgilbert                                     Jeff Sussman
Storvik (even though Julitta doesn't like us :) )       Silver Spring

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 19:25:51 GMT
From: Terry Nutter <jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: Inspiration (was Re: consort gender)
Message-Id: <3410@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings to all, especially Linda of the Lakelands, from Angharad ver'
Rhuawn.  With regard to consorts and inspiration, Linda asks,

>Greetings
>
>I've had sinilar problems on the "inspiration" question. I've had
> gentleman that I don't know walk up to me the eveing before a crown
> and ask if they could fight for me. Is it better to tactfully turn 
>them down, or assume that they are, in fact, inspired by me, and let
> them fight. I would have problems with the latter, due to the oath of 
> invocation where we swear to serve if we win. How do I know if I would 
>be ABLE to serve with this person? Am I taking the whole thing too 
>seriously?  Any suggestions?

You surely know far better than I how much work ruling is!  I don't
see how it could possibly be done well by two people who go into it
as strangers, especially in the West or Caid, where they have only
a four month reign, so that early fumbles are so much more salient.

Were I in a similar position, it occurs to me that I might suggest to
the gentle that I feel awkward serving so without knowing him better,
and that perhaps we might begin now to become friends, and if at a
later tourney he should ask such a question, I could better honor
him by an answer based on my personal knowledge of his excellent
qualities.  Or something?

Anyhow, much as I may inspire him, I would say some version of "no",
for precisely the reason you indicate: I am not sure I can rule with
this person.

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

Angharad/Terry

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 19:52:11 GMT
From: Jeff Sussman <sussman@socrates.umd.edu>
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.195211.28766@socrates.umd.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings Unto the Rialto

In article (Michael A. Chance) writes:


>tabard with the crossed yellow swords on it.  Swords tend to be
>somewhat hard to see on any constrasting field, and yellow on black is
>not real high on the visibility charts (black on yellow is, which is why
>road signs use it).  Plus, a high percentage of the fighters on the
>field tend to also be wearing black, making instant identification all
>the more difficult.

With the array of flashing colors that a fighter is presented with during
combat he can't make identification decisions without stopping and assessing
the situation.  We can all tell stories about melees between units on the
same side that resulted when the unit they were both fighting, from different
angles, disappeared.  Colored tape on helms only helps when the units are
not yet engaged.  Once the weapons start flying it takes yelling and screaming
to get two same side units to stop killing each other.

A marshal's main defense is identification.  The biggest part of this is the 
lack of a helm.  The marshal who got hit in the head during the town battle
might have been hit because he was wearing the hat that saved him from more
serious injury (of course, this is conjecture).  Weird colors, OSHA orange
etc., are not going to make much of a difference.

>(An aside:  Can anyone tell me why, with most of the US in a temperate
>to subtopical climate, black armor is so popular?  Or does testosterone
>poisoning affect the parts of the brain controlling common sense?)

Never underestimate the effects of testosterone poisoning.

>If the marshallate wants to be easily distinguished from the combatants,
>they should be wearing something that is easily visible and instantly
>distinguished from anything that most combatants would wear.  Reversing
>the current  marshall's badge is a good possible suggestion (ie, black
>swords on yellow).

A marshal who gets into a melee, as was required of us who marshalled in the
town battle, is going to be in trouble.  Scenarios need to be designed as to
not imperil the marshals.  Color coding is less effective than avoidance.


Richard                                 Jeffrey Sussman
Storvik                                 Silver Spring
Atlantia                                Maryland

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 17:50:33 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: A request for a bit of help
Message-Id: <1992Sep04.175033.25250@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!

>       I am soon to join the noble ranks of the SCA.  I pose this question
> in hopes that one of you may be able to help.  What names are apropriate?
> This summer at a convention I used the name "Nikodemus" for my persona. 
> Would this be acceptable?

SCA names should be names taken from medieval history.  You shouldn't adopt
an entire name identical to that of some famous person from history or
literature (Richard Lionheart, Amadeus the Green of Savoy, Gandalf the
Grey); instead, you should pick a given name and some kind of byname that
were used in some time and place in medieval Europe or the surrounding
areas.  

"Nikodemus", if I remember correctly, is the name of a demon.  That's not
the kind of name we encourage, because we re-create medieval history.
Thus, your name ought to be a name appropriate for a medieval human being,
at some time and in some place.  (If my recollection is wrong, and
"Nikodemus" is in fact a medieval human name, then it is completely proper
for use in the SCA.)

If you'd like some help choosing an SCA name, please feel free to drop me a
line.  

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 20:29:06 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: A request for a bit of help
Message-Id: <1992Sep04.202906.26892@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!  I wrote earlier:


> "Nikodemus", if I remember correctly, is the name of a demon.  That's not
> the kind of name we encourage, because we re-create medieval history.
> Thus, your name ought to be a name appropriate for a medieval human being,
> at some time and in some place.  (If my recollection is wrong, and
> "Nikodemus" is in fact a medieval human name, then it is completely proper
> for use in the SCA.)

In a private note (and possibly an article), Aryk noted that there is an
apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus.  That is probably sufficient documentation;
the New Testament and the apocrypha were common sources for names in the
Middle Ages.  Of course, it is always best to use a name that you _know_
was used in the time and place that interest you.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 20:04:48 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: Inspiration (was Re: consort gender)
Message-Id: <1992Sep04.200448.31884@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!  Linda wrote:

> I've had gentleman that I don't know walk up to me the evening before a
> crown and ask if they could fight for me.

There is a difference between asking a gentle to be your inspiration, and
ask her to serve as your queen.  At any other tourney, the lord's gesture
would have been a courtesy and a compliment, which you could accept or
decline as you saw fit.  At a Crown Tourney, it was a foolish presumption
and perhaps even an insult: It suggested that the lord either did not take
(or understand) the responsibilities of ruling seriously enough to devote a
single day's thought to them, or that he really had no intention to try to
win.  In either case, your proper response was to decline politely.

This is a distinction that the East has reinforced through law, by
requiring both combattant and consorts to state in advance their intent to
compete in Crown Tourney.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 20:54:34 GMT
From: "A.J.S. Nusbacher" <aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Subject: period songs
Message-Id: <Bu2nEz.Byv@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep4.191429.27867@socrates.umd.edu> sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman) writes:

>Under this definition of period you make it impossible to compose new material
>that is period.  

Depends on how well your time machine works... \8-)

>For my own definition of period, a song that is composed and
>presented exactly in a period fashion is period.  If I make a replica of a
>period pavillion, using period tools and period materials I call it a period
>pavillion.

For most purposes, however, you are lying.  No, that's harsh -- you've made
it clear that what you call "period" is rather a broad definition.  How
about this:  you've humpty-dumptied the word "period".  That is, you've
made it mean exactly what you want it to mean, regardless of its commonly
accepted meaning.

Perhaps we could agree on "period-style", which, like "kosher-style" and
"country-style", are widely understood yet not accepted by purists.

Aryk Nusbacher

BTW, to humpty-dumpty is a transitive verb.  Remember, you saw it here first!
Now to use it in German.  Er hat das wort humpty-dumptiet.  Call the OED!
Call Langenscheidt!  Get me out of my office before they have to come with
nets!

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 20:20:29 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
Message-Id: <1992Sep04.202029.34625@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!  Dani wrote:

> That said, I have to agree strongly with the more general argument.  It's
> hard to identify the precise combination of musical conventions, word
> choices, themes, and sensibilities that makes a song 'period-sounding',
> but one learns to recognize it.  When you've listened to enough period
> music, and read enough period song, modern folk-songs stop sounding
> authentically period.  After a while longer, eighteenth-century folk songs
> stop sounding period.  The problem with most 'period-sounding' songs
> is that those presenting themselves are often fooling themselves.

Take care, Dani: you are treading dangerously close to the temptation of
"period mind-set".  With enough learning, we can hope to recognize
out-of-period elements in songs, but no matter how long we study, none of
us can ever hope to label EVERY song as period or not simply by hearing it.
After a great deal of work, one can get to the point of knowing the truth
about many songs, and being able to analyze others and make a good guess,
but when it comes right down to it, we can't develop an innate sense of
what is or isn't period art.


Richard FitzGilbert wrote:

> Under this definition of period you make it impossible to compose new
> material that is period.  For my own definition of period, a song that is
> composed and presented exactly in a period fashion is period.  If I make
> a replica of a period pavillion, using period tools and period materials
> I call it a period pavillion.

I think there is a flaw in your analogy: There is a difference between an
exact reproduction and a new composition, no matter how closely it is based
on period models.  Unless it is _exactly_ the same, it cannot be a
reproduction of a period song.  By the same logic, a "period pavillion" is
one that is an exact reproduction of a period model; if you introduce
variations, or mix elements from several different models in an
undocumented way, then at best you have a "period-feeling pavillion."

The real question is what we mean when we talk about a period song (or
poem, or play, or pageant, or court ceremony, etc.)?  Ellisif's point was
that we are using that term is different ways, and that we would
communicate more effectively if we distinguish between songs that existed
in the Middle Ages (period songs) and songs that we, with our inexact
understanding of period methods, languages, and aesthetics, have fashioned
after the models of period songs (period-feeling songs).

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 20:48:45 GMT
From: Terry Nutter <jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: period songs
Message-Id: <3411@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings, all, from Anghard ver' Rhuawn.  Ellisif wrote,

>Of these, the only one that is period, according to Julitta's notes, is
>the last.  Others are about period incidents or people, but that does *not*
>mean the song is period.  A song is composed of, among things, language
>and music; you can tell a period story in a very non-period way, and you
>can tell non-period stories in period ways.  What was under discussion here
>was the authenticity of the *songs*.

To which Richard FitzGilbert (hi!) responded,

>Under this definition of period you make it impossible to compose new material
>that is period.  For my own definition of period, a song that is composed and
>presented exactly in a period fashion is period.  If I make a replica of a
>period pavillion, using period tools and period materials I call it a period
>pavillion.

I think it is useful to make several distinctions.

There are period songs.  These are songs with period melodies and period
words.  They are what we use (or anyhow, what I use, and what I think we 
should use) as a standard to measure whether another song is in a period 
style.

There are period style songs.  These are written now, but composed, to a
reasonable extent, according to period forms, and presented, to a reasonable
extent, in a period manner.  In order to know they are not period, even
a fairly accomplished scholar of the form would have to know the facts of 
authorship.

There are "periodoid" songs.  These are written now, and follow styles that
do not, to an _uneducated_ ear, sound ravingly modern.  Someone who knows
either period poetry or period music well might be able to show you that
they could not have originated before some point well after period; but as
a rule, they do not interrupt the feel for someone who listens to music 
and poetry a lot but is not _educated_ in it.

There are modern songs on period themes.  These are songs whose words,
melodies, or both, without introducing elements that are clearly out-
of-place (no jet planes, etc.; no electric guitars and synthesizers 
that sound like synthesizers and nothing else), nonetheless scream 
"modern" at someone who has listened to both medieval/renaissance songs 
and modern ones, even though the hearer knows none of the theory.

Then there are just plain modern songs, with modern themes and the whole
nine yards.

Notice that it takes musical (or poetic, or both) education to tell 
any of the first three apart; from which it follows (or I believe that 
it should) that all three have a completely reasonable place in SCA 
performance at events.  Whether the fourth class has such a place is 
debatable; and so long as such a thing can be debated, I don't think 
it should be excluded.  The fifth just don't belong, but I think most 
of us agree on that.

The problem Ellisif pointed to, I believe, is that of calling something
"period" when you have not only failed to distinguish which of the
first three classes (let alone which) it belongs to, but have not even
shown whether it belongs to any of them or instead to the fourth.  

The reason it is important to distinguish is that if we don't, we start
using our own works as standards of medieval and renaissance forms,
instead of using medieval and renaissance works, and wind up enshrining
as "authentic" uses and forms that are completely mundanely modern.
Sarra Graeham just posted a lovely article describing some of that.
If you think that creating an "SCA-oldoid" form and adopting it for
our performances is ok, then no problem.  If you don't, you'll tend to
have a problem.

To be a little more concrete: Richard mentions "Born on the Listfield",
probably the most popular song in Atlantia now.  Say you are new to
the Society, you've heard this, and you decide to use it as a model.
I frankly don't know its particular form well enough to classify it,
but it is somewhere between class 2 and class 4: potentially an 
excellent model, and certainly not a terrible one.

But then there's the melody we sing it to here.  It's class 4 at best, 
and I tend to place it in 5 (but I'm sensitive to melody, so that may
be unfair).  And if you have never heard any real class 1 melodies, 
it is unlikely that you can know that you are using a modern idiom.
And the more we use modern idioms as our standards, the harder it is
to get someone to step back and listen to something in a different
one.

That's why a lot of people would like to distinguish at least classes
1-3 from class 4 (setting aside the nasty question of 5; I suspect that 
almost everything that is referred to as "filk" in a derogatory way 
falls into class 5).

I hold no awards for music; I am not a mundane expert; I know a little
about it that anyone with an interest could not pick up in a couple of
years.  Perhaps this is naive of me, but I like to think that our models
for period bardic should know at least something close to as much as I
do, or be on the way to learning it, and that they know enough class 1
music to tell classes 2 and 3 from class 4, and think that the difference
matters.  Not even that all our bards satisfy this: just that the ones
we use as models _of period bardic skills_ do.

If you only want good entertainment, your mileage will surely vary; just
as if you only want pretty clothes, there's no reason to wear ones that
are centuries out of date.

Cheers,

Angharad/Terry

 -----------------------------

End of SCA Digest
******************************

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