HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ekman@netcom.com (Crossly the Glad-Eyed Bear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,soc.penpals
Subject: Re: Question on Thanksgiving...
Date: 23 Nov 92 16:35:46 GMT
Organization: Home for the Terminally Infirm

In article <92328.082614U61618@uicvm.uic.edu> <U61618@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>ADAM IS WRONG THANKS GIVING IS CELEBRATED NOT NOVEMBER 26 BUT THE LAST THURS-
>DAY OF NOVEMBER WHAT EVER DATE IT FALLS ON IT COULD BE THE 25,26,27.... ANYWAYS
>IT IS ALWAYS CELEBRATED THE LAST THURSDAY OF NOVEMBER.
>                                           G-MAN.

Sorry, G-Man, but it's the  fourth Thursday in November, which is  not
necessarily the last Thursday.
-- 
Crossly the Glad-Eyed Bear              ekman@netcom.com
Home for the Terminally Infirm, Redwood City, California
Xref: sparky soc.culture.usa:8563 soc.culture.canada:8585
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: "discovering" America ...  :-)
Date: 17 Nov 92 09:11:56 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Lekskola, G|teborg, G|taland

In article <craigen.13.721680988@ace.acadiau.ca> craigen@ace.acadiau.ca (DOUGLAS CRAIGEN) writes:
>   Surely the very least we could do for our native people would be to stop 
>refering to others as the "discoverer's" of America.

  It is possible to claim that Columbus, Leif Erikssonm, and everybody else
'discovered' America without claiming that they were the 'Discoverer' of
America.

  I can say that "When I had been on the net for two years I discovered 
soc.culture.usa", which doesn't imply that before I wrote 'g soc.culture.usa'
in trn nobody knew that soc.culture.usa existed, and my usage of 'discover'
above is analogous.

-bertil-
--
"Ack! Phht!" - Bill the Prez
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:46:27 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

> 
> A.T. Fear (cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk) replies:
>>I've never said that and would attack anyone who did, but oddly no-one
>>seems to take this position, say Greeks who say other people do, but
>>then can't come up with any examples.
> 
> It seems that Andy Fear doesn't remember very well... Let's help him...
> 
> In article <rsakella.716309366@p4.cs.man.ac.uk>, I pointed out several
> of the confusions that some people want to create on the history of
> Macedonia. And I observed how these people use the name Macedonia in order 
> to imply a relation between the x-Yugoslavia's "People's Socialist Republic 
> of Macedonia" and the use of the name Macedonia since antiquity. Asking if 
> such a relation exists, in <4063@keele.keele.ac.uk>, Andy Fear 
> (cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk) replied positively: YES


What Andy Fear said was yes if you mean that both political units occupy
the geographical area called Macedonia.  At no time did I state or even
imply that there was historical continuity between the two groups of
people involved.  Well I've had my morality questioned, my nationality
questioned so I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone
tried a shabby rhetorical trick like this.  I wonder when someone will
do something really original like present an argument?

Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:42:53 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>From article <BxxJEz.3u9@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):
>> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>> 
>>  The arguments of Prof. Borza are simply laughable.  The only way that this
>>  person can receive some credit is by trying to prove that the ancient
>>  Macedonians were not Greek.  There is little novelty in proving that
>>  they were Greek. 
>>  This is how prof. Borza makes his living.  He has not made a single 
>>  contribution to anything related to ancient Macedonians. 

>Basically the above seems to saying the following: I hold the following
>statement 'The Ancient Macedonians were Greek' as an item of faith.  I
>will not engage in any argument about this, any 'contribution' to the
>subject must be one which confirms my prior prejudices.  If someone
>presents the opposite point of view I shall ignore it, especially if he
>argues from a complex position.  Sad really as I would of thought that
>one of the greatest contributions Greek philosophy made to the world was
>to show us the need to question our prejudices and bigotries and that
>the world is often not as simple as it seems.

 I do not ignore different arguments.  I only ignore silly arguments, which
 are not based on historical evidence.  Speculations are by no means
 historical evidence.  I have questioned the motives of persons who are
 trying to make their living by benefiting from a political situation.

 The arguments that you have presented so far, are a collection of isolated
 clues or hints.  By continuously ignoring solid historical evidence, and
 by hypothesizing on things that you want to prove, you are only discrediting
 yourself and your profession.

>Sad really as I would of thought that
>one of the greatest contributions Greek philosophy made to the world was
>to show us the need to question our prejudices and bigotries and that
>the world is often not as simple as it seems.

 You thought correctly, but you haven't practiced it the right way.  The need
 to question should not be a one-way process.  It is disappointing to see
 a person, who wants to teach us the spirit of ancient Greeks, trying to
 pour ridicule on everything that the Greek side presents and, in the
 contrary, ignore everything that the Skopjean side claims.  

>Andy

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: bayram@cisa1.cis.uab.edu (Zeki Bayram)
Subject: EMBARGO VIOLATIONS BY GREEK SHIPS
Originator: bayram@cisa1
Organization: University of Alabama at Birmingham
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:18:11 GMT


The following article appeared in the Nov. 18, '92 issue of the New
York Times, on page A8.

U.S. SAYS GREEK SHIPPING LINES ARE VIOLATING  YUGOSLAV EMBARGO
--------------------------------------------------------------

Washington, Nov. 17- United States officials said today that companies
based in Greece are major violators of the world economic embargo
against Yugoslavia and that the Bush Administration has privately
complained to the Athens Government about its apparent willingness to
tolerate the offenses.

President Bush was to raise the topic today in a meeting with Prime
Minister Constantine Mitsotakis of Greece. Mr. Mitsotakis said later
that he had assured Mr. Bush that Greece was complying with the
embargo.

Mr. Bush and Mr. Mitsotakis met one day after the United Nations
approved new sanctions against Serbia and Montenegro, the two
republics that now make up Yugoslavia, that were designed in part to
discourage violations of the embargo by Greek companies.

Administration experts, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Greek
tankers have recently transported 450,000 barrels of oil to Serbia.
Some of the tankers unloaded their cargoes in Bulgaria for shipment to
Serbia and others unloaded in Montenegro.

As recently as Friday, one official said, a Greek-owned tanker was in
the Adriatic seaport of Bar, Montenegro, unloading caustic soda, a
critical product in the oil-refining process.

On Friday, the United States delegate to the United Nations, Edward J.
Perkins, took the unusual step of publicly identifying one Piraeus,
Greece shipping firm, Thita Tankers Company S.A., for violating
sanctions in the oil and caustic soda trade.

He said the Thita Trion and Thita Volcano made several deliveries of
these products to Bar. Egyptian and Italian tankers also had shipped
embargoed products to Bar, he said.

Some officails suspect the Athens Government has not only tolerated
the smuggling, but also encouraged it.

"It is certainly true that Greek ships and Greek companies have been
centrally involved in violations of these sanctions," a Congressional
expert said in an interview today. "But it's difficult to say the
Greek Government is encouraging these shipments with a wink and a nod."

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: The Skopjean flag
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:50:48 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>From article <BxzArI.M8o@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):
>> 
>>  I do not ignore different arguments.  I only ignore silly arguments, which
>>  are not based on historical evidence.

>Yet all the arguments presented *have* been buttressed with ancient evidence.
>Read the review of Borza in AJP.

 I have written my opinion about Borza.  No need to repeat it. 

>>  I have questioned the motives of persons who are
>>  trying to make their living by benefiting from a political situation.

>Of course it just might be that Prof. Borza takes interest in a
>fascinating part of history, but that may be an eccentric interpretation
>of the motivations of a professional ancient historian....

 The person wants some credit.  His scientific value is in the neighborhood
 of zero.

>> and > by hypothesizing on things that you want to prove, you are only
>>discrediting > yourself and your profession.  >

>I have suggested what I believe to be the most plausible interpretation
>of the evidence we have available.

 You have been continuously ignoring solid historical evidence, and thus
 keep prostituting your profession, and ridiculing yourself and the
 title you have earned.

>Andy
 
 Panos Tamamidis
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10778 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9638 soc.culture.europe:9713
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 22 Nov 92 16:37:24 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <By1EqM.wI@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine):
>>friendly towards them (at least at this time). 
> 
> So, you are saying that Perdicas decided to become a king, the Greeks
> did't want kings, and then he though to himself:  Hm, the Macedonians
> like kings, I 'll go there.  And the Macedonians said:  Sure, we had
> a job search for a king, let us read your resume', O.K you fit the
> job description, you will become a our king!  And this is the end of
> the fairy tale! Methinks this is too much to swallow!

That's Isocrates not me! I agree it is, that's why I think that we
should reject the Argead claim.

> 
>>The answer is no: there is no good grounds to believe the Argead story,
> 
> Are there any good grounds to REJECT the story?

Well plenty of people at the time didn't believe it. Demosthenes was
one, and let's remember if he has a political position then so has
Isocrates. The Greek historian Appian is another. I think the best
reason is that this false geneaology was such a common ploy in
antiquity. Since all the other claims of Greekness we know of are false
it might be worth assuming that on balence this one is too until better
evidence can be produced. BTW no disrespect to Herodotus my favourite
Greek author.
From: dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: SERDAR-MALAK: FUCK YOU
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:52:29 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <scg.722542804@cs.wisc.edu>, scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg) writes:

>SO I stood up and walked to their table... "you from turkey?"
>I asked the faggets that were sitting there... "yes" said one
>of them, so I took him for a spin first telling him: "Well,
>I am from Greece and I have a message for you all: FUCK TURKEY!!!"
>
>Not one single chicken shit ass said one word... not one!
>Here I was fucking their country and not one of them sissy screwups
>said one single word... I spit on them and left disgussed...
>They took their taken asses and left minutes later...

You idiot, you did this and feel proud of it? I don't feel any affection for
Turks whatsoever and I'd be glad to see the Turkish state destroyed and the
unspeakable Turkish crimes against humanity righted. But whoever saw you
abusing some individual Turks who had done nothing personally to you, and yet
they had the dignity not to whip your ass as they could (6 or 7 against 1,
what the heck), would tend to draw very unfavorable conclusions about
Greeks... and totally unjustified, for you are just a shame, twerp.

But of course it is more likely that you actually did nothing of this, it is
all just kiddish bravado...

>
>Nick Gavrielatos
>To Sixameno Plasma
>UCNICK@UMUC.BITNET
>

Dimitris Kouvatsos
-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:56:29 GMT

In article <BxuvnF.7oL@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>
>I can only think of one historian who takes this position without seeing
>problems and he has moved to it recently.  I recommend Borza's In the
>Shadow of Olympus which has a copious bibliography and a review of it in
>the latest American Journal of Philology.  I have yet to see one cogent
>argument to suggest that the ancient Macedonians were Greek. 


I've said it and before in the same exactly argument which you presented
previousely:

In the above mentioned book of Borza, which I've read, he clearly states
at the page 72 that to the *best* of our knowledge "macedonians were 
maybe of a proto-greek stock, and they spoke a greek language".

He further goes to differentiate macedonians from the greeks because
of differences in their administrative and social customs. But he makes
this distinction on a terminology basis for modern historians (purely
semantics, no extention of who has the legacy of their culture today).

Gr
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: A question to A. T. Fear
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:29:32 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

Thanks Richard. By the way, when are you coming? I 'm leaving
for Greece on the 21st Dec and will be back on the 9th (Jan),
so if you want to meet me (or be sent a postcard in the very
end) just e-mail me.

Regards

Panayotis

--
UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
JANET:     pef@uk.ac.qmw.dcs | Mile End Road            |  eperasen,
Voice:     +44 71 975 5220   | London E1 4NS            |  anthei kai
FAX:       +44 81 980 6533   |                          |  ferei kai
Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg)
Subject:  SERDAR-MALAK: FUCK YOU
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:20:04 GMT

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Forwarded message follows:

From cm320c50@socrates.umd.edu  Sat Nov 21 10:43:22 1992
Received: from cs.wisc.edu by bashan.cs.wisc.edu; Sat, 21 Nov 92 10:43:22 -0600
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From: CMIS 320-6141 Student 50 <cm320c50@socrates.umd.edu>
Subject: SERDAR-MALAK: FUCK YOU
To: soc-culture-greek-post
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 11:44:13 EST
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

I am having difficulties posting so you took advantage you
sissy ass and you write your ass out... you dont even have
one gram of pride you turkish piece of turkey-shit, you cant
even post with your real name anymore...

SO young turks told you about a broken nose huh? What they 
didnt tell you is that I fucked 6-7 of them a couple of 
months ago... wanna hear the story??? THey were sitting in 
a restaurant somewhere close to my table... so we were talking
greek... and all of a sudden someone told me to wisper because
there were turks close by and they would hear us... Bullshit
I thought, and figured if my pals didnt feel well, I had to 
do something... 

SO I stood up and walked to their table... "you from turkey?"
I asked the faggets that were sitting there... "yes" said one 
of them, so I took him for a spin first telling him: "Well, 
I am from Greece and I have a message for you all: FUCK TURKEY!!!"

Not one single chicken shit ass said one word... not one!
Here I was fucking their country and not one of them sissy screwups
said one single word... I spit on them and left disgussed...
They took their taken asses and left minutes later...

So you heard about a broken nose huh? You have always been one
lying prostiture, a unique dirty bitch... Among your millions
of assholes mutlu-bitch-malak, you dont have one single soul, 
man enough to stand in front of me! You are good only for fuckups!

I'll call you in your office soon... dont hung up on me again, 
you are only proving what I say...

Nick Gavrielatos
To Sixameno Plasma
UCNICK@UMUC.BITNET


Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: More Pseudo Scholars in Action defending the Ottomans
Date: 22 Nov 1992 01:15:31 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic, actually AT&T's very own Hasan B Mutlu) writes:

> >How's this different from the forced religion changes caused by the
> >angelic Ottomans (tm)? 
> 
> Is this the "perlman-ian" of the week? The following observations by 
> Westerners were written in French by Ahmet Cevat: 

Does it make it more credible if it is in French, Mutlu? Is Mr. Ahmet Cevat 
a Turk or not? Nah, he's a Turk alright, but he's objective (in French!)

(* [Many patronising statements] These facts demonstrate that Muslim
(* countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
(* countries."[1]

And, 

(* On account of this, the autonomy of minorities in Turkey is better and 
(* more complete than any in the most advanced European countries."[2]

And,

(* Turks never oppress anybody on account of his religion. [3]

And, 

(* "In that vast and calm country of the sultan, all religions and nations are
(* living together peacefully. [4]"

Of course, "(*" is Turkiye's very own..... But some of Djevat's stuff was
actually written by A. Ubicini.... Any info on Signor Ubicini, Mutlu?

(* [1]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
(*      pp. 70-71.
(* [2]  Ibid., p.91.
(* [3]  Ibid., pp. 214-
(* [4]  Ibid., pp. 215-216.

As usual, I won't challenge your statements above. I'll just challenge
you to produce a NON-Turkish source for any of the stuff above. I am
sure  I can read BAGDHAT NEWS or IRAQI FREE PRESS and see "objectivism"
all over the place about Iraq winning the MOTHER OF ALL WARS. But coming
from a country where freedom of expression is questionable at best 
newspapers being collected before publication,  movies, poems, Kurdish
language, etc all censored/forbidden until very recently, etc) I'd have
a hard time accepting Djevat Bey as anything other than a career paid
propagandist. 

> Serdar Argic

Surely, you jest.

Spiros


Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10650 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9556 soc.culture.europe:9613
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:40:43 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Nov17.235629.6162@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, by gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis):
> 
> I've said it and before in the same exactly argument which you presented
> previousely:
> 
> In the above mentioned book of Borza, which I've read, he clearly states
> at the page 72 that to the *best* of our knowledge "macedonians were 
> maybe of a proto-greek stock, and they spoke a greek language".


Of course what you fail to mention is that this quotation comes in the
context of denying the Macedonians are Greek thesis, saying that the
best that we can do on this line is to say perhaps the Macedonians were
proto-Greeks and spoke a Greek language. Being a proto-Greek isn't being
a Greek any way of course, we were all proto-Europeans or indeed
proto-humans at one time (perhaps that thought might cast some light on
present-day Greek selfishness). Try page 95 (my ed) which seems a fair
summation 'It would appear that there is much in Macedonian society that
is assimilated from Greece; but there is also a great deal that seems to
be indigenous and non-Hellenic'. That's to say that the Macedonians were
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
semi-hellenised - I agree, but that's very different from saying they
were Greeks, especially in the simplistic way that is all too frequently
presented here, where they seem to be thought of as Athenians who just
spoke a different accent.
 

BTW if we're talking of the legacy of Alexander, looking at present
developments in the region I suspect his mantle has fallen on Mr
Milosevic and his supporters

Andy
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10811 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9661 soc.culture.europe:9739