From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Guy at Sun who got fired for nasty pos
Date: 14 Aug 92 11:04:57 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

In article <11750@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> In article <193194@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov>, pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew) writes:
> 
> If the heterosexual community was encouraging molestation, it wouldn't
> be a waste of effort.

Oh good, then we agree that you're wasting your time, because the homosexual
community certainly does not encourage child molestation, despite your
fevered claims to the contrary.  I'm glad we have that point settled.  Hey,
maybe we can go back to discussing political issues in these political
newsgroups!

>> I'd be fascinated to hear about the research you've done.  Please tell us
>> which experts you have consulted and which articles/journals/books you've
>> read so that we can establish your credentials for posting on these
>> various subjects.
> 
> I've already posted this several times over the last few months.
> Not everyone has been pleased.  Others have agreed that there is
> something worth looking into.

Oh really?  You have posted statistics from two (count them, two) studies
that you read concerning child molestation (then proceeded to misinterpret
those statistics).  You have posted no other evidence of any sort that
would be acceptable in any formal debate.  No one on this newsgroup has
publicly agreed that there is anything worth looking into.  Nebulous,
unsubstantiated claims about e-mail don't impress me.  My e-mail is running
unanimously against you.

You have not done any research on the psychology of homosexuality and are
eminently unqualified to determine whether it is indeed a form of mental
illness.  Your "conclusion" that it is, is worthless.

In short, you haven't done any research, just as I claimed.  And you have
failed to answer my questions, so I'll ask them again:

1.  What is this (so-called) link between child molestation and adult homo-
sexuality?

2.  Were the majority of adult homosexuals molested as children and does
this in fact have anything to do with the fact that they are now homosexual?

3.  Compare and contrast this to the number of heterosexuals who were
molested as children.

4.  Do the majority of children who are molested become homosexual?

5.  Answer all of the above questions for both males and females.

6.  Is homosexuality a form of mental illness?  If so, has anyone developed
a "cure"?

7.  Regardless of the answer to the previous question, are all homosexuals
psychologically disturbed?  If so, what are some of the reasons for this?

The information is out there, Clayton, all you have do is go to your local
library and do some research.  When you've done that, then I'll listen
to your postings with a little more respect.  Until then, you're just
mindlessly babbling.  If you don't know the answers to these questions,
then why the hell are you talking about them?

>> I've also read your cross-postings from soc.motss and quite frankly, some
>> of those postings simply didn't say what you said they did, and didn't
>> support the conclusions you tried to draw from them.  As for selective editing,
>> I'm thinking of things like Jeff Dauber's comment, "I support pedophiles,"
>> which you quoted without giving us any of the context of the discussion.
>> You claimed that this meant Jeff was in favor of NAMBLA, child molestation,
>> and sex with 8 year olds.  When Jeff posted the full text of his posting,
>> we found that it did not support your conclusions.
> 
> It certainly did mean that, and Jeff has since backed off of his
> support for that.  But just so that you can see how poorly Bartholomew
> is reading:

Clayton now posts an interesting series of articles which confirm my claims:

1.  *None* of them support child molestation.

2.  Several specifically reject the idea of sex with pre-pubescent children,
including Jeff Dauber, by the way.

As evidence of Clayton's reading skills, let me reiterate what *I* said
(quoted above), "some of those postings simply didn't say what you said
                 ^^^^
they did, and didn't support the conclusions you tried to draw from them".

In fairness to Clayton, some of this material supports consensual sex with
children without defining "children".  In fairness to the gay community,
when Clayton pointed this out in his cross-postings, every response I read
claimed they were talking about post-pubescent children, a fact which
Clayton has conveniently left out of his material.

Every time someone in the gay community attempted to follow up Clayton's
postings with a rational discussion of age of consent laws, Clayton once
more brought up the 3 or 8 year old straw man (straw child?) and refused
to engage in debate.

Additionally, Jeff Dauber's posting, as I've stated, did not support child
molestation, did not even mention NAMBLA, and did not support sex with eight-
year olds.  Thank you so much for confirming my opinion of *your* reading
skills, Clayton.

Let me add one more note.  Some of the discussion that Clayton cross-posts
troubles me.  It leads me to believe that there are as many as half a
dozen posters to soc.motss who need psychological counseling.  Where
Clayton and I differ is that Clayton extrapolates from this small sub-
group to the entire group posting to/reading soc.motss to the entire
gay community at large.  Ironically, all of Clayton's claims may in fact
be true--but his conclusions are unsupported by the evidence he has shown
us to date.

>> I don't read soc.motss, but I've been told by those who do that you go
>> through their newsgroup with a fine-tooth comb, looking for ammunition
>> for your crusade.
> 
> And there's never a shortage of it -- such as is reproduced above.

And thank you so much for inflicting this on us yet again.  In these political
newsgroups we are so interested in reading details about homosexual sex acts.
It's so appropriate to the topics that are supposed to be discussed here,
isn't it?

"Never a shortage of it"?  Then why have you posted so little?  Heck, those
little gems you inflicted on us were posted months ago.

>> I have been told that soc.motss has as many as 50 postings a day.  You cross-
>> post about 1 every couple of weeks or so.  What about the other 699 postings,
>> Clayton?  What would they tell us about this homosexual community you dread
>> so much?  Would it perhaps reveal that homosexuals are just like everyone
>> else?  Would other readers of soc.motss care to comment on this?
> 
> Go read it for a while.  I find that a great many liberals don't want
> to read soc.motss, I presume because they don't want their illusions
> damaged.

Nope, it's because I'm not interested in reading soc.motss.  I don't really
care what they talk about in their own group.  Even if I found some things
that troubled me, I wouldn't make the mistake that you've made, extrapolating
from this (very) small, atypical group to the entire population at large.  I
get my information from facts, statistics, personal experience, experts in
the field, etc.  You are most emphatically not an expert in this field and
you don't have any facts or statistics to back up your claims.

As for personal experience, my hobbies include vocal and instrumental music,
and theater.  I suspect that I've gotten to know far more homosexuals in these
activities than you ever have or ever will.  My personal experience, my
research, and my common sense, directly contradicts everything you've posted
about homosexuals and child molestation, and homosexuals and mental illness.

And, once again, you still haven't answered my question:  what about the vast
majority of material you are not presenting?  Could it be that you don't
present it because it doesn't support your crusade?  Because we might find
out that homosexuals are normal people aside from the fact that they've been
scarred by a society that rejects them and people who post misinformation
and lies like you?

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Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
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