HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 14 Aug 92 11:37:57

In article <9208132030.AA15591@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> I have seen no evidence of Tom's dishonesty or Jew-hatred.

Aw COME ON ! You YOURSELF talked about TA (along with Bill Hamilton) as
being anti-semitic just a couple of weeks ago! (Sure someone has that on
files; I don't.) With Bill it was totally unfounded, but TA... Remember
his postings about "the days of vengeance" for Jews ?

>  Although I
> consider Tom's theology to be incorrect (and dangerous if
> misinterpreted by the masses), he always supports his statements and
> makes his affiliation clear.

YEAH, sure... (:-()

> With Tom, I can have an honest disagreement in which both sides
> acknowledge that our first principles differ and both sides choose
> public self-descriptions uniquely corresponding to these principles.

With Tom we have the problem that he thinks that the *Rabbinic* Judaism
is the biblical and original form of Judaism. Right Tom ?

Tom, don't let yourself be fooled by R.L.!

> Rob

- Laura
--
Ki yeled yulad lanu ben niten lanu vat'hi hamisra al shichmo vayikra
shmo pele yoetz el gibbor avi ad sar shalom.   - Yeshaya 9:5

Achen chalayeinu Hu nasa umach'oveinu svalam va'anachnu chashavnuhu
nagua muke Elohim umeune. VeHu mecholal mip'shaeinu meduka meavonoteinu
musar shlomeinu alav uvachavurato nirpalanu. Kulanu ketzon tainu ish
ledarko paninu veHashem hifgia bo et avon kulanu. Nigas veHu na'ane
velo yiftach piv kase latevach yuval uch'rachel lifnei goz'zeiha ne'elama
velo yiftach piv.  - Yeshaya 53:4-7
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 16 Aug 92 18:42:04 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


       -=> Quoting Harvey Smith to Bill Carlson <=-
 HS> Hi Bill, it matters not whether they hold to the Messianic view that
 HS> Isa 53 refers to Messiah, and that the ancient rabbis before the exile
 HS> also believed that.  Today i believe the accepted interpretation was
 HS> originally put forth by Rambam, that Isa 49:3, shows Israel to be the
 HS> servant, they he referred Isa 53 to. 
 HS> But even with that interpretation, it is easy to see that it is Jewish
 HS> interpretation today and in ancient days, that the Just would die for
 HS> the unjust and redeem them. 
    Yup; I just wish people would research these things a little before
    they said it was "not-Judaic".  How many times do you figure we've
    had to cover the same old ground on this one?  Couple-dozen :-)
 HS> If you remember, the old rabbinic arguement is that vicarious
 HS> atonement is not Jewish thought.  Rambam's interpretation of Isa 53,
 HS> shows the opposite, as well as the annointing of the levites in
 HS> Numbers, where their blood makes atonement for Israel as a living
 HS> offering, as Israel lays hands on the levites and the levites lays
 HS> hands on the sacrifice.
    Perhaps, from that aspect; one can make a point then...
      RABBINIC: LUCHOTH HABBERITH (242a):  He (the Messiah) will give
      Himself and His life over unto death, and His blood will atone
      for His people.  SEBANIM (6a):  Surely atonement can only be made
      with the blood, as it says, 'For it is the blood that maketh
      atonement by reason of the life' -[Leviticus 17:11].  [See also
      Yoma (5a)] ...(and Hebrews 9:22; Ex.24:8; Jer.31:31; Matt.20:28)
                          /\
                     ____/_ \____
                     \  ___\ \  /
           !!!!!!!    \/ /  \/ /    !!!!!!!
           |||||||    / /\__/_/\    |||||||
           |||||||   /__\ \_____\   |||||||
  |        ***W***       \  /       ***W***        |
 _-_          T           \/           T          _-_
 | |----------------------------------------------| |
 | |  Sh'ma Yisrael HaShem Eloheinu HaShem Echad  | |
 | |  V'ahata et HaShem Elohekha b'khol l'vavcha  | |
 | |     oovkhol nafsh'kha ovvkhol me'odekha      | |
 | |----------------------------------------------| |
 -_-                                              -_-
  |                                                |

... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210        
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: vacation
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:27:58 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

To: Rob Strom

 RS=>I will ask my children to prepare summaries of their
 RS=>experiences with Christian missionizing, since several
 RS=>on this group have questioned my second-hand reports.
 RS=>I hope to have these ready when I return.

There is no need especially since this was not christian missionizing, but 
missionizing by a family member.  Quite a difference Rob... 

--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Subject: Re: Relationship between the Church and Israel
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Distribution: alt.messianic
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:35:08 GMT

I am a bit confused.  I have read some of what Tom Albrecht has said about
the relationship between the church and Israel, but I didn't see the
difference between what the MJs were saying and what he was.  As such I
would appreciate some clarification.

Thanks,
"Malachi" Ian Robertson Brown

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 22 Aug 92 19:21:34

In article <2459@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM> tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht) writes:
> I'm sure Donna KNOWS my theology inside and out.

Donna, I've got TA's theology on files (or one version of it). Would you 
like to see it ? 

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: MJ's\
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:30:09 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

[Private email to Harvey bounced, so I'll go public.]

Harvey Smith blunders in with:
>
>To: Rob Strom:
>
>Next, i guess this took place on a beach in which your 2 year old and four 
>year old were playing all by themselves?  without parental supervision?  To 
>that i would say in the face of danger from the water etc, would have also 
>been parental abuse.

Nice cheap shot, Harvey.  I think you need to seek forgiveness from
Rob for your unnecessarily harsh words. 

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:03:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


             -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene <=-
 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Date: 13 Aug 92 20:30:58 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9208132030.AA15591@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RAL> Harvey Smith and other UMJC types exhibit none of this integrity,
 RAL> choosing instead to end posts with sneering <grins>, declaring
 RAL> themselves winners of debates, using imprecise self-descriptions,
 RAL> and insulting others with terms such as "churchianity" and
 RAL> "rabbinism." 
     I resent that; and there you go again with your blanket labels.
     I've tried to discuss issues politely with you since I came on
     here.

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: MJ's\
Date: 14 Aug 92 03:37:54 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

To Wm E Hamilton

 WE=>fear to motivate the people they witness to.

I agree, we were posting our position to him because he requested the info. 
We were not attempting to put him down, just clarify what in the world he 
was talking about.  he was speaking hypothetically and so we took it to its 
logical conclusion.  That is jewish way William. 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:17:31 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA


           ** Submitted for Bruce Benning by Bruce Tiffany **
           --------------------------------------------------

re: Missionizing 2-year-olds
----------------------------

 Rob Strom has made a case against his relatives who believe in
 Messiah Yeshua because of alleged  wrongful behavior toward his
 children.
    {scare the young children to believe in Yeshua}

 Rob, if you believe the activity you suggest your relatives did
 against your young children was wrong, would you also agree with
 me that the act of parents who disown their children because the
 children become followers of Messiah Yeshua is equally wrong?

 It seems only fair that a discussion of those who have come to
 believe in Messiah Yeshua, and were utterly rejected by their
 Jewish parents/family/friends would be appropriate now.

 What I mean to point out here is that wrongful behavior is a
 two way street. I have heard of Jewish men and women who become
 believers and then are told never to return to the parents homes
 until they renounce Jesus. Some have even found their parents MOVE
 without leaving a forwarding address to the child. Some find these
 parents get sick, then die and the son/daughter are not allowed to
 visit and/or come to the funeral.

 Now Rob, do you want to talk about emotional/psychological warfare of
 this nature? It does exist. How would you respond to it?

         Bruce Benning __________ benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com

         -------------Religion may inform and reform-------------
         ----------but only Messiah Jesus can Transform----------

    LORD, who may dwell in your sanctuary? Who may live on your holy
    hill? He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous,
    who speaks the truth from his heart and has no slander on his
    tongue, who does his neighbor no wrong and casts no slur on his
    fellowman, -Psalm 15:1-3
From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: introduction and questions
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:53:10 GMT
Distribution: alt.messianic
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

In article <1992Aug19.222404.2743@samba.oit.unc.edu> Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson) writes:
<I guess I question how true this statement is.  If you define
<premillennial as just the belief that Yeshua returns before the millenium
<and at that time the saints become possesors of the kingdom, then I and my
<denomination, the Seventh-day Adventist, are premillennial.  If you define
<"official" as being what our governing body declares to be the
<denomination's current understanding of these Biblical matters, then we
<are officially premillennial.  So given my conditionals, does your
<statement still hold?

By "governing body" do you mean that highest official ecclesiastical body
of the denomination?  I would say that if the SDA has an official
confession, and that confession is explicitly premillennial, then you would
qualify as well.  (Do you have a pointer to this document, and how I
might get a copy?)

My point was that there are only a handful of Christian denominations that
are explicitly premillennial, and that premillennialists are a minority
within Christianity (as are postmils).

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: MJ's\
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:59:38 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


To: Rob Strom
 RS=>Your guess is idiotic, slanderous nonsense.

Not so, because i asked these questions before i found out this was a family 
matter, and not an MJ problem or situation.  You ask where did you ever 
accuse Mj's of witnessing to babies?

 RS=>Stephen Mizarski.
|> What church did he actually represent?  

 RS=>He was in ministerial school then.  He is now an (assistant?) 
 RS=>minister at the
 RS=>Congregational Church in Derry, New Hampshire.

Ok so he wasn't involved in any hebrew christian or MJ congregation.
Thats what we have been telling you all along..

|> happened, why attach the "significance" to it that you do labeling all or 
|> most or even some in that catagory....
|> 
 RS=>Evangelical Christians, a category which includes Messianic Jews,
 RS=>believe that it is a mitzvah to spread the gospel.  Some are so
 RS=>zealous that they do it to children as well.  I've seen no 
 RS=>indication
 RS=>that they are taught that this is wrong.

Here is your current statement that tries to connect what a few family 
members of YOUR family did with MJ's or Evangelical Christianity.  If you 
brought them to a church or MJ congregation, or you gave permission for them 
to be brought there, yes they would be taught about Yeshua.  Just as 
children brought to a reform Temple or Orthodox Shule would be taught about 
Jewish feasts and holidays and Judaism... 

So why the big issue?

 RS=>I've posted this many times before:
 RS=>You can believe in anything you wish.  Just stay away from my 
 RS=>kids.

No worries there Rob.  When your children reach majority, they can ascertain 
truth for themselves.  Of course you have the heavy weight that what you 
teach your children will bias them even to 2 or three generations.  So 
Please be careful...
 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: MJ's\
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:20:14 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

>Next, i guess this took place on a beach in which your 2 year old and four 
>year old were playing all by themselves?  without parental supervision?  To 
>that i would say in the face of danger from the water etc, would have also 
>been parental abuse.
 TA=>Nice cheap shot, Harvey.  I think you need to seek forgiveness 
 TA=>from
 TA=>Rob for your unnecessarily harsh words. 

Nothing harsh about them at all Tom.  I did not know that this was an 
internal family matter.  He spoke of leaving them by themselves again and 
that he would have to watch them intensively was his posting, so as to keep 
them away from MJ's.  As a father and grandfather, i asked the above 
questions to get at the truth.  However finding out after my post that it 
was a sister who accepted the L-rd that supposedly did this witnessing when 
the children were 2 and 4.  Most children would not even remember the 
incident unless parents shoved this continually before them to scare them 
away from hearing the good news...  No cheap shot intended... Nor was what 
you quoted i said even remotely sounding like one.  However, i am very easy 
to repent, and do so daily.  How about you and the lies you have told on 
MJ's and what we believe?  Are you ready to repent? 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Sunday, 16 Aug 1992 06:54:44 EDT
From: <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Who did I offend?

Daniel Lockhart asks why his question on the Jubilee was pulled from
Compuserve.

I suspect it is because one of the favorite tactics of missionaries on
s.c.j. (and I guess similar fora elsewhere) is to ask a seemingly
innocent question and, after the answers are received, respond along
the lines of "Oh, yeah? Well, if that's so, how come y'all don't
accept Jesus when it clearly states . . ." and so on.

The moderator may have suspected that that is what you were up to, so
he/she deleted it.

And no, the Jubilee is not practiced today but the sabbatical year is.

"Oh, yeah? Then how come, when it clearly states . . .?" :-)
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Levite Priest Gives Life For Sinners
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:02:05 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


               -=> Quoting Rob Strom <=-
 RS> From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
 RS> Date: 11 Aug 92 19:59:04 GMT
 RS> Organization: IBM Research
 RS> Message-ID: <1992Aug11.195904.17736@watson.ibm.com>
 RS> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RS> I'm unaware that Christians believed Jesus to have been a High Priest,
 RS> or to have claimed to be a High Priest.  I am aware of the Christian
 RS> belief that Jesus' death atones for the sins of people who believe
 RS> in him.  There's no analogy between the Jesus story and this Torah
 RS> passage. 
     The idea that Messiah will also be a Priest is not outside of
     Rabbinic thought; [the Dead-sea Melchizedek Scroll; Midrash on
     Ps.2; Midrash on Ps. 18:36 comm. on Ps. 110:1; the Targum
     readings on Ps. 110:4; etc....].

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210      
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Let's Examine our Attitudes
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:01:56

In article <19920813.054925.641@almaden.ibm.com> mannk@fshvmfk1.VNET.IBM.COM (Ken Mann) writes:
>   Are personal attacks
> against Rob really necessary?  While Rob does not agree with the major
> topic of alt.messianic (that Y'Shua is Messiah), I have not witnessed him
> attacking those who do.  All he has asked for is apologies from those who
> continue to attack him.

Well, I haven't been attacking Rob S. and I wish others wouldn't do that
either (coz it makes things only worse). But you haven't been reading 
this newsgroup long enough. Rob is always replying to our postings; about 
in a rate of 1 or more a day. He claims to be giving the "Jewish view" of 
different issues, like is Daniel a prophet or not (according to Rashi he is) 
etc. 

Some of his most common ways in replying:
- You contradict yourself
- You are using backwards reasoning
- Of course we don't believe this (Yes, *we*, not I)
- You are using christanspeak
- Echo (i.e. repeating almost the exact wording of someone else, usually 
  the one he's replying to)

And if he doesn't find anything worth of replying (or too hard for him), 
he just searches some stuff from files, usually something Bruce Tiffany
has written, or starts a thread about his family issues. We've heard 
already enough many times about them, so don't be surprised over the
replies...

- Laura
--
Ki yeled yulad lanu ben niten lanu vat'hi hamisra al shichmo vayikra
shmo pele yoetz el gibbor avi ad sar shalom.   - Yeshaya 9:5

Achen chalayeinu Hu nasa umach'oveinu svalam va'anachnu chashavnuhu
nagua muke Elohim umeune. VeHu mecholal mip'shaeinu meduka meavonoteinu
musar shlomeinu alav uvachavurato nirpalanu. Kulanu ketzon tainu ish
ledarko paninu veHashem hifgia bo et avon kulanu. Nigas veHu na'ane
velo yiftach piv kase latevach yuval uch'rachel lifnei goz'zeiha ne'elama
velo yiftach piv.  - Yeshaya 53:4-7
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:19:34 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


To: Bill Carlson
 RAL> But what counts is how widely accepted the interpretation is
 RAL> among those whose greatness in Torah learning is acknowledged.
 RAL> The idea that Is 53 refers to a future messiah is not the
 RAL> accepted view.
 BC=>As
 BC=>      ALL the MOST ancient Rabbinic writings spoke of Is. 53 as 
 BC=>being
 BC=>      about Messiah; and the STANDARD ORTHODOX TODAY remains that 

Hi Bill, it matters not whether they hold to the Messianic view that Isa 53 
refers to Messiah, and that the ancient rabbis before the exile also 
believed that.  Today i believe the accepted interpretation was originally 
put forth by Rambam, that Isa 49:3, shows Israel to be the servant, they he 
referred Isa 53 to.

But even with that interpretation, it is easy to see that it is Jewish 
interpretation today and in ancient days, that the Just would die for the 
unjust and redeem them.

If you remember, the old rabbinic arguement is that vicarious atonement is 
not Jewish thought.  Rambam's interpretation of Isa 53, shows the opposite, 
as well as the annointing of the levites in Numbers, where their blood 
makes atonement for Israel as a living offering, as Israel lays hands on 
the levites and the levites lays hands on the sacrifice. 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG