From: ask@sei.cmu.edu (Alan Koch)
Subject: Re: Libertarians & Abortion (was: Please let Marrou debate!)
Keywords: abortion,platform
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 21:03:58 GMT


In article <1992Oct14.200014.26341@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M Conley) writes:

|> No, it based upon the belief that a fetus is property, and the rights 
|> of existing humans beings always take precedence over potential human 
|> beings.  In fact, potential (non-existant) human beings *have no 
|> rights*.  

And THAT is the bottom line.  The reason why the pro- and anti-abortion folks
can't understand each other is that they each base their arguments on their
own definition of when life begins and what a fetus really is.  You say a
fetus is property and has no rights.  I say it is human and DOES have rights.

Untill THAT mis-match is resolved, no further talk (or red-faced screaming) is
useful. 

|> I'm not trying to fan the flames of the abortion debate, 
|> but you are misrepresenting the philosophy behind the pro-choice 
|> movement and I won't allow it.
|> 
|> >That is the most infuriating part of the whole pro-choice argument.  It is
|> >based upon people's belief that they should NOT be held responsible for their
|> >own actions!  In ANY society (and especially in a libertarian one), personal
|> >responsibility is INDEED an important point.
|> 
|> WRONG!  See my paragraph above.  

I'm sorry.  That satement was a GROSS generalization, and does not belong in a
realistic debate.  I was simply responding to the previous post by someone who
made a categorial and rediculous statement about fetuses imposing themselves
on their mothers.  Most pro-abortion folk don't make such rediculous
statements, so I was wrong to over-generalize.

|> And is it just me, or have most 
|> of the anti-abortion arguments seen on the net lately focused on 
|> women not being 'responsible' for their actions?  And don't most 
|> of these arguments come from men?  What's the matter boys, afraid 
|> that once they're freed from the bonds of reproduction women will 
|> actually start to enjoy themselves and have lots and lots of sex?  

I knew it.  After I sent that article off, I realized that someone would pick
up on that point.  No, I do NOT assign any more responsibility to the woman
than I do to the man.  It takes two, as they say, and BOTH (not neither, but
BOTH) must bear the responsibility.

|> If you want to argue about whether a fetus has rights or not, that's 
|> fine, but don't try to attach some huge artificial responsibility to
|> an act just because you aren't comfortable with the fact that people
|> do it and like it.

Unfortunately, if you believe that the fetus DOES have rights, then by
definition, that "act" carries a very real responsibility with it.
See?  It all comes back to that basic belief.

|> C H A S T E   M A K E S   W A S T E ! 

There's another debatable statement!  The growth of free sex over the last
quarter-century has been accompanied by MANY problems, unexpected pregnancy
being only one of them.  I the light of evidence, I would argue that chastity
has GREAT value.  But in my permanent monogamous relationship (traditionally
referred to as "marriage", I'll take sex any day!  :-)

ask@sei.cmu.edu

Alan S. Koch
Software Engineering Institute
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA  15213