From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Training for rapier combat was Re: Sex, swords .... 
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:10:08 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Jamys de Godeleia (David Godley) writes:

>It is not just the concept of point control but more of distance judgement.  
>It takes a while to develop a accurate sense of distance... How far and 
>deep to lunge given your opponents distance.

Perhaps we mean different things by "slap."  If your opponent lunges
too far and too hard, you are likely to end up with a bruise, but I
don't see how you could get slapped by the side of the blade unless
his point control is also off.  (Not that either slaps or hard blows
are to be encouraged; I just want to make sure we're talking about
the same thing.) 


>> If a fighter charges into your blade, he's dead if someone is doing this
>>deliberately, either he has a blow-calling problem or he's not taking the
>>game seriously.  Either way, someone needs to talk to him.  Or am I
>>missing something? 

>No... quite likely the gentle in question doesn't know better.  It is much
>harder to define a "good hit" with a rapier.  

It's hard in the case of marginal blows.  If someone charges into
your rapier, there shouldn't be any problem at all.  The blows that
leave bruises are not the ones that are hard to call. 

>In the "glorious days" before electrical apparatus for an epee it 
>was a mere 3" bend in the blade. 

In Ansteorra, our standard is 3" of bend in a *foil*.  If you're
regularly putting 3" of bend in an epee, it sounds like you're 
already hitting pretty hard.


>Here we have two extemes...  When they get together misunderstanding 
>is bound to evolve. One combatant a fencer used to the light and precise 
>touches to the hand and wrist of Epee 

Here is where we get into questions of equipment.  IMHO, most standard
fencing equipment is not suited to SCA rapier combat.  Those tiny little
bells, for example, do not provide nearly enough hand protection.  I have
a good, solid steel bell, yet I still have dings in it from some, ah...
interesting occurences.  One of those resulted in a badly bruised knuckle
as it was -- it would have been far worse if I'd had one of those wimpy 
little aluminum bells.  


>I have been trying for a while to get the SCA fencers to undergo at 
>least some basic (competitive) fencing training.  Not much mind you
>(maybe something in the order of 10 hrs.) but enough to know how to 
>correctly hold a weapon, basic parries and attacks and above all to 
>develop a sense of distance.  

I'm not convinced that 10 hours of Olympic-style fencing training
would accomplish this goal better than 10 hours of SCA rapier
instruction.  How to hold a weapon?  Like most I use an Italian grip.  
Most Olympic-style fencing is done, I believe, with a French grip.
Basic parries?  Rapier parries are done most often with the off hand,
rather than the weapon.  (When I was new, Don Alaric started me out
with rapier and dagger for this reason.) Sense of distance?  I'm not 
sure that any sense you develop while fencing in the line would transfer 
over when you're fighting in the round.  

-- Nicholas van Leyden