From: cctr114@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: dealin w/atheist
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:39:02 GMT
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

In article <Apr.8.04.31.48.1992.27847@dumas.rutgers.edu>, superc@sam.ksu.ksu.edu (Shawn E Chase) writes:

I would like to just address your question on suffering.

[snip]
>  anyways, here are some of the main questions, but the principal one is: WHY
>DOES GOD ALLO SUFFERING AND PAIN IN THIS WORLD? ?? i tried to tell him that 
>satan
>is the ruler of this present world system, because of the adam and eve stuff,
>etc. but the dude just wont accept the bible as credible in the first place. 
[snip]

The question of pain and suffering is dealt with in the most detail in the
book of Job. Job is not an easy book to study and many people find the
answer given by the Lord in his reply to Job and his friends to be
incomprehensible. Some of those who think that they have figured out what the 
Lord was saying regarding pain and suffering find the answer unsatisfactory.
If you chose to look at Job, be prepared for a lot of hard study. Good
commentaries on Job are few. Its size and structure make it very 
difficult to come to terms with. Another problem is that you need to 
have been through a considerable amount of suffering yourself to even
see Job's point of view. Most people who have been healthy all their
life, never lost loved ones, or never been short of a dollar cannot 
identify with Job and usually find themselves on the side of Job's
friends. Then at the end, when the Lord speaks, who can identify with
His position?

One thing that amazes me about peoples approach to Job (or least the
ones I know) is that a lot don't beleive that Job was a righteous and
upright man even though the Lord said so - twice. A lot of people I
know think that they can find sin in Job's life which accounts for
the punishment that the Lord sent on Job. The sin usually attributed
to either the fact that he sacrificed on behalf of his children on the
off chance that they cursed God in their heart, or to the verse
which says ``the very thing I feared has come upon me''. I don't really
understand the objection to the sacrifice, but the second is considered
sin because ``perfect love casts out fear'' therefore Job sinned in not
loving God fully. In short, they agree with Job's three friends as to 
the root cause of all his trouble.

If I may be permitted to paraphrase the Lord's answer in the Book of
Job, I think that what He is saying is - ``Look, you are finite and small 
and there are some things in the Universe which you don't understand and 
will never understand. Suffering is one of these. It has a purpose within 
the scheme of creation and it is valuable to Me, but you are not able
to understand it.''

The problem of pain and suffering cannot be answered easily, and if
we take the Book of Job's viewpoint, it is not a problem that has an 
answer. I have heard apologists argue that pain and suffering prove
the existance of God, but I find their arguments too slick to be
credible. In dealing with an atheist or other non-beleiver, I think
it is more important that you be honest than find an answer that can be
trotted out in a couple of minutes. If you don't have an answer you
should say you don't, but point out that a lack of an answer has not
prevented you from becoming or remaining a Christian.

Working through the book of Job may not provide you with nice neat
answers, but in working through it you should at least come to some sort
of understanding of the place of suffering in the world. It is clear that 
God did have the power to prevent Satan from hurting Job and knew what the
outcome would be, but allowed it for His own purposes. Those purposes are 
not adequately explained in Job to my way of thinking. But that enhances 
its value rather than diminishes it. Had the writer yielded to the
temptation to provide an answer, its timeless meaning would have been
lost. An answer that would satisfy the ancient Hebrews probably wouldn't
satisfy us today.

One of the problems I have with the Book of Job is that is it a happily-
ever-after story. Job fully recovers from his disease, all his material
wealth is restored (plus generous interest), and he gets another family.
I do not see real life to be like that. Mostly if people get extremely sick
they are left with permanent residual problems. If all their wealth is
wiped out, few ever rebuild it. If all their family dies (especially one the
size of Jobs') often people remain childless to the end of their life.
And for a person that has all three happen simultaneously, they usually 
get carried out in a wooden box.

> are there any true bible scholars who read this newsgroup??? if so, i'd really
>appreciate a direct email to my address, or a followup on this news network, as
>i'm sure we've all had and are going to have more runins with atheists. 

I doubt that there are many ``true bible scholars'' out there, just us rank
amateurs :-)
 
>   thanks for any and all who respond...in christ, shawn e chase 1cor 15:57,58...

-- 
                                                                      ___
Bill Rea                                                             (o o)
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