HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mls@unislc.uucp (Michael Simons)
Subject: Re: Anyone have shuttle info for Main Salmon?
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:35:48 GMT

From article <1992Jul27.154839.13277@ncar.ucar.edu>, by ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern):
> The Riggins Chamber of Commerce was not helpful.  We want a service that
> will take us from the take-out (Riggins) to the put-in on the Main Fork
> of the Salmon (two rafts, 8 people).  Can anyone recommend a company,
> give us a phone number, or even copy an ad for us?
> 
> -- 
> /\        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they 
>   \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | seem," was wrong.  Things are usually as they
>       \_______________________| seem.  Otherwise, they wouldn't seem that way.

It's been several years since I've run the Salmon, the outfit that run shuttle
for us was:

	River Rat Express
	2134 Highland Avenue East
	Twin Falls, Idaho  83301

	Twin Falls: 733-8003
	Stanley:    774-2265

Sorry, but I don't have Idaho's area code. Anyway the above info was valid
in 1988, don't know if it still is. Hope this is of some help.

	Mike Simons
	Unisys -- Salt Lake

Xref: sparky rec.boats.paddle:1259 rec.backcountry:5593 rec.travel:10736
From: pgf@cayman.COM (Paul Fox)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle,rec.backcountry,rec.travel
Subject: sea kayak outfitter north of Vancouver?
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:06:44 GMT
Followup-To: rec.boats.paddle
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge Ma


hi -- we're planning a vacation in early september -- all we _know_ so far
is that our round-trip tickets get us to Seattle.  We'd like to do some
sea kayaking (a couple/three nights out, max), and have heard that the
boating is really nice north of Vancouver.  But we need to rent equipment --
can anyone recommend an outfitter in the right area?  Feel free to
recommend that we stay near Seattle, if you think that's what we should
do.  We don't know the area all that well, and haven't even really started
reading yet...


paul fox, pgf@cayman.com


p.s. any favorite, relatively dry :-) backpacking destinations in the
Seattle/Vancouver area?  Again, 2 or 3 nights out would be perfect...


-- 
		paul fox, pgf@cayman.com, (617)494-1999
		Cayman Systems, 26 Landsdowne St., Cambridge, MA 02139
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Subject: Re: Rapid names
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:39:03 GMT

>The Royal Gorge is more challenging 4's and 5+'s

There are absolutly no V+'s on the Royal Gorge.

>Sunshine Falls, 3 6'+ rock ledges in a row -- a 5 or worse most of the time.

Sunshine is a IV at most levels.  Can get to V- at high water.
There is only one pour over at the bottom which is about 3.5'.
The whole rapid drops maybe 10' over ~150' length.

--Chris

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: gizzi@rtsg.mot.com (James A. Gizzi)
Subject: Yough water level??
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:44:00 GMT

I am wondering about conditions on the Youghiogheny this weekend
with all of this rain.  Is there anyone that knows firsthand?
I'll have a few neophytes in rafts and am hoping it won't be too
exciting for them.

Thanks in advance.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Gizzi             "Western Society needs to prioritize life-support
sqa.rtsg.mot.com       systems and to question its commitment to Materialism"
                                Audrey Shenandoah - Onandaga "Elder"
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Olympic kayaking?
Date: 31 Jul 92 11:59:22 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <l7h9poINNlfj@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>Could anybody fill us in about kayaking at the Olympics?  I haven't
>seen it on regular coverage, and didn't pay for TripleCast.  I would
>even like to know basic stuff like, what events are there, anyway?  
>Probably flatwater racing and whitewater slalom, eh?

The whitewater slalom finals for K-1W and C-1 are scheduled for 9 AM
Barcelona time on Saturday; the finals for K-1 and C-2 are scheduled
for 9 AM Barcelona time on Sunday.

According to my local cable company, there will be no coverage of whitewater
slalom on the triplecast.  However, NBC's broadcast coverage is supposed
to include slalom on Saturday night, Sunday morning, and Sunday night; I have
no idea how much they'll actually show.

There are flatwater events as well, but they're not worth watching.

---Rsk
From: akarpowicz@mta.ca (Adam Karpowicz)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: polyester resin vs epoxy
Date: 23 Jul 92 00:11:21 GMT
Reply-To: akarpowicz@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada

Hi,

Is polyester resin used for inner and outer fiberglass shells in
stripper construction, or only epoxy? Polyester is considerably 
cheaper.

Thanks in advance

Adam
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: cfs@cos.com (Cathy F. Summers)
Subject: Re: Olympic Kayaking
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems International
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:24:30 GMT

In article <LEE.92Jul15120031@meercat.wang.com> lee@wang.com (Lee Story) writes:
>In article <1992Jul13.140524.19566@cos.com> cfs@cos.com (Cathy F. Summers) writes:
>
>   NBC has a great hook with Jamie McEwan being on the team
>   twenty years after his Olympic Bronze in C-1 at Augsburg, and the U.S.
>   team is full of medal potential with Jon Lugbill, the Hearns, Dana Chladek,
>   Rich Weiss and Scott Shipley and the Strausbaugh/Jacoby and McCormick/
>   Weintraub teams.
>
>Does this mean that Cathy doesn't consider our #3 'yakker, Eric
>Jackson (who learned to paddle with my club (MVP) to have medal
>potential?  :-)   I think a lot of people are going to be surprised
>when Eric peaks for the Olympics!
>
>Regards,

My Public Apologies.  I think E.J. has a great chance to medal.  The
original post was after Trials and before I saw just how much E.J.
was closing the distance between himself and Rich and Scott.  At the
Dickerson race last month, Eric was third behind Scott and Rich, but
it wasn't by much.  A U.S. sweep in K-1?

FYI.  If you can get Maryland Public Television, they will be showing
their piece about Team Trials on Wednesday July 22nd at 7:30.  MPT
even put a shot of Marty McCormick and Elliot Weintraub on the cover
of their magazine (but it wasn't my shot. Sob :-)).


Cathy Summers     /PN=Catherine.Summers/O=COS/PRMD=COS/ADMD= /C=US/
                  cfs@cos.com
		  cfs%cos.com@uunet.uu.net

The opinion expressed in this article are those of the author and in no way 
reflect positions of the Corporation for Open Systems or its members.
From: Christic Institute <christic@igc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:19 PDT
Subject: Query: Paddling in LA, Cleveland
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1450000010:000:871
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!christic    Jul 24 07:19:00 1992


I'm starting a new job in September that will split my time
between Los Angeles and Cleveland.  Can anyone tell me about
the whitewater and flatwater paddling opportunities in the
immediate LA and Cleveland areas?  I won't be able to take
extended trips from either city, unfortunately.

What I regret most about this job is that I've got to leave
Washington, D.C., where whitewater is just a 30-minute drive
from downtown.

Your help will be appreciated!

Andy

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Lang              401251507 UI                         telex
Christic Institute       christic                          PeaceNet
Washington, D.C.         christic@igc.apc.org              Internet
202-797-8106 voice       uunet!pyramid!cdp!christic            UUCP
202-462-5138 fax         cdp!christic%labrea@stanford        Bitnet

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: holtslander@skyfox.usask.ca
Subject: RE: aqua - kayaking camera recommendations
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:30:44 GMT

A friend of my is both a serious Kayaker (you have to be serious to be a
kayaker is Saskatchewan) and a serious photographer.  He bought a used
"Nikonos II" and used it.  The Nikonons II is an old nikon underwater
camera, I think he paid $200 canadaian for it a few years ago.  He made a
harness for it and strapped it to his chest.  It works fantastic.  The
camera has a ingenious shutter release winding mechanism - You can trip
the shutter and wind the film in one movement.  I highly recommend it if
you want to be really serious about whitewater photography.  Its waterproof
and indestructable

Gord Holtslander
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: meyersd@cs.washington.edu (David Meyers)
Subject: Re: Olympic Kayaking
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 19:30:19 GMT

In article <84000@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>In article <3081@ra.nrl.navy.mil> schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette) writes:
>>All this talk about Olympic paddling... Lets not forget our other real
>>medal chances.
>
>Yeah, but those are all weenie flatwater events.  To quote from Sir William:
>
>"There is no such thing as an expert flatwater paddler."
>	--- William Nealy

The truth of the matter is that Nealy probably couldn't keep one of those weenie
flatwater boats upright for more than about three paddle strokes ... let alone
make it go nearly 10 knots for 1000 meters.

How's that for flame war material? :^)

Dave Meyers (meyersd@cs.washington.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: IJIM@vm1.spcs.umn.edu (Jim Colten)
Subject: Re: polyester resin vs epoxy
Organization: CIS at U of MN
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 03:13:08 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.001121.23544@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>
akarpowicz@mta.ca (Adam Karpowicz) writes:
 
>
>Hi,
>
>Is polyester resin used for inner and outer fiberglass shells in
>stripper construction, or only epoxy?
 
They are both used.
 
>                                      Polyester is considerably
>cheaper.
 
Epoxy has numerous 'advantages':
 
  1) stronger
  2) more flexible and less likely to shatter
  3) it does actually penetrate into and bond with the wood
  4) lighter weight
  5) longer pot life when glassing
  6) humidity does not inhibit the cure
  7) polyester smells terrible and is supposedly somewhat nasty
 
having said that:
 
  1) it isn't like polyester is weak
  2) are you planning to canoe heavy water and slam into big rocks?
  3) a epoxy-bigot I spoke with admits that he has never actually
     seen polyester/glass delaminate from the wood
  4) quality of application can make a bigger weight difference
     than choice of resin
  5) pot life is not such a factor unless you are real slow and mix
     batches that are two large.
  6) humidity is a real problem with polyester unless you can afford
     to be very patient and wait for a good DAY (do not start after noon)
     to glass.  With patience, it is not a problem
  7) a friend who helped me epoxy my first stripper got a *TERRIBLE*
     case of 'contact dermititis', the doc kept asking him back to
     be looked at and poked at by med students.  That was many years
     ago.  Newer epoxies are supposedly not so nasty but ....
  8) polyester 'wets' the glass cloth *MUCH* easier than epoxy does.
 
which should you use? take your pick.  first boat was polyester, second
boat (in progress) will be WEST epoxy, but only because I stumbled on a
one-time good deal.
 
Good luck, enjoy building and then paddling.
 
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: barr@tramp.Colorado.EDU (BARR DOUG)
Subject: Re: River ratings discussion
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:54:16 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.205955.4787@ncar.ucar.edu> chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu writes:
>An open ended system would be nice.  Class V certainly covers
>a lot more teritory than it did 10 years ago.  I use the
>following rating system (with some CO examples):*
>
>"It hasn't been run yet"
"It hasn't been run yet" would be a VI, on the scale I'm referring to.

>V+	(RogorMortis, Meat Grinder, Lower Eldorado Canyon, SuperMax).
>V	(Gore upto 1700cfs, Pine Creek @~2.5'-3', Baily Canyon @500cfs)
>V-	(Upper Animus**, Piedra)
>IV+	(Middle Narrows Poudre @4')

I'm in agreement with the above ratings, though I'd put Middle Narrows
as a V- (ok, call me picky picky). For me, the definition of V is Pine Creek, 
and the definition of IV is 1 thru 6.

>"No problem [for me]"
>I am not sure the open ended system will help.  When looking at
>new stuff I still tend to underrate easier stuff.  I use "No problem",

With the new scale you wouldn't be as tempted to underrate the easier stuff,
because you would be debating over whether the harder stuff is V.5 or V.4.

>because I have [been told that I have] lost my perspective on how

Losing perspective on the easier runs is inevitable (the same thing happens
in climbing). That's why it's important for experts NOT to fiddle around 
with the ratings on the class IV's and III's. (I've heard 1 thru 6 referred
to a class III run). This is because the guy has been running these V+'s
and so Pine Creek must be a IV, and that puts 1 thru 6 a III.
Keep in mind, the really bold expert has no NEED of ratings for safety
purposes. He's experienced enough to figure it out himself. 
The ratings primary purpose is for visiting and inexperienced boaters, who
don't want to screw up their boating vacation on something too easy or 
too hard.

>hard the easy stuff is.  This is easy to do when most of what you
>boat is class IV-V.
>
>* These ratings are mostly at moderate water levels.
>
>** Upper animus as a whole run is Class V, but no individual rapid
>	is much harder than V- @~2500cfs in Durango.
>
>--Chris

doug
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Olympic Kayaking
Date: 21 Jul 92 18:07:49 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Naval Research Lab, Physical Acoustics, Washington, DC

All this talk about Olympic paddling... Lets not forget our other real
medal chances.  K-1 1000M men  -- Gold, Greg Barton should repeat
		K-2 1000M men  -- Greg and Norman Bellingham could repeat
		K-4 1000M men --  Terry Kent, Mike "the bear" Herbert,
				  Chris Barlow, Mark Hamilton -->3rd if lucky
		K-1  500M men  -- Norm, probab a silver
		K-1  500M women -- Kathy Hearn, pos. a silver

Remember, the U.S. has won a bronze, a couple of silver and at least
4 golds in olympic canoe/kayak that I can think of.  (Not counting the
squad in '24)


Larry
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Subject: Re: River ratings discussion
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:06:28 GMT

barr@tramp.Colorado.EDU (BARR DOUG) writes:
>I would like to propose a change in the river rating system.
>Adopt a system of V.x, where x is 1,2,3, ... on up to however far you need.
>....

The day after we did this Eric Bader will claim to have run a V.99. ;~)

--Chris

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: bob@copi.cmhnet.org (Bob Williams)
Subject: Re: Yough water level??
Organization: Coordinated Office Programs
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:21:13 GMT

gizzi@rtsg.mot.com (James A. Gizzi) writes:

>I am wondering about conditions on the Youghiogheny this weekend
>with all of this rain.  Is there anyone that knows firsthand?
>I'll have a few neophytes in rafts and am hoping it won't be too
>exciting for them.

>Thanks in advance.
>Jim Gizzi             "Western Society needs to prioritize life-support

The Army Corps of Engineers supports an online bulletin board that gives
guage readings for rivers and streams in the Allegheny, Monongahela, and
Ohio/Beaver watersheds.

Mary Shaw (shaw+@CS.CMU.EDU) posted (a month or so back):

>Here is the detailed technical information:  You need a communication 
>program for your personal computer (or a computer terminal) and a 300 
>baud or 1200 baud modem.  Call 644-6562 (area code 412 if you're calling 
>from out of town).  When the Corps computer connects, type a carriage 
>return to get the menu of options.  You may notice that the most recent 
>reading varies from one gauge to another. This is because each gauge 
>sends a batch of hourly readings every three hours, but the gauges are 
>on staggered schedules. The data displays are currently updated after 
>every call.

>Three gauges require special notes:  The gauges at McConnells Mill on the
>Slippery Rock and at Ohiopyle on the Youghiogheny are not full-fledged, 
>calibrated, transmitter-equipped gauges; therefore they cannot report to 
>the Corps of Engineers computer and there is no way to include them in 
>this service.  Instead, use the Wurtemburg gauge on the Slippery Rock 
>and the Confluence gauge on the Yough.  The 1991 edition of the Canoe 
>Guide explains how to interpret all these gauges.  The correlation between 
>McConnells Mill and Wurtemburg appears on page 103 and the correlation 
>between Ohiopyle and Confluence appears on page 310.  Also, the information 
>about the Kingston gauge on Loyalhanna Creek on the weather service daily 
>recording does not correspond well to the Corps of Engineers information.  
>The Canoe Guide uses the Corps data, and we were not able to find an 
>explanation for the discrepancies.  I'd like to express my appreciation to 
>Lewis Kwett for his work in setting up this valuable resource, and indeed 
>to all the folks at the Corps of Engineers for their assistance in providing 
>water level information to canoeists.


-- 
    ____  ____  ____  _   Bob Williams  bob@copi.cmhnet.org
   //    // // // // //                 bob@copi.UUCP
  //    // // //_// //                  copi!bob@n8emr.columbus.oh.us
 //__  //_// //    //     Coordinated Office Programs, Inc.
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: River ratings discussion
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:34:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncar.1992Jul31.153430.13589
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO

Chris:
>>I use the following rating system (with some CO examples):*
>>
>>"It hasn't been run yet"

Doug:
>"It hasn't been run yet" would be a VI, on the scale I'm referring to.

I'm not a fan of the class VI rating.  You don't see climbers calling
unclimbed routes 5.15.  Although I would call Poudre Falls Class VI,
because it ain't ever gonna be run.


Chris:
>>When looking at new stuff I still tend to underrate easier stuff.
>>I use "No problem",

Doug:
>With the new scale you wouldn't be as tempted to underrate the easier stuff,
>because you would be debating over whether the harder stuff is V.5 or V.4.

Does it matter *exactly* how hard something is.  In climbing you need to
know exactly how hard the hardest move is, because you can't portage
around it.  In boating you always get out and scout stuff that is near
your ability.  If it looks too harry, you portage, no big deal (except
on the Clarks Fork, where you look at something, decide not to run it,
then look at the portage, and end up running it ;~) ).


Rich:
>The rating system is an attempt to reduce the complex and infinitely
>varied features of all the rapids on the planet to one of six categories,
>and as such, it has its limitations.

That's putting it mildly. ;~)

Rich:
> Knowing that a rapid is class III,
>for instance, does not tell you all you need to know to run it.  The only
>real way to assess the difficulty/danger of a rapid is to learn how to
>read the water, and then go look at it yourself.  The advice of guidebooks
>and of other experienced paddlers can be invaluable; but in the end, the
>decision to paddle or portage is a highly personal one that everyone who
>runs whitewater should learn to make.

>To put it another way: if you plan on paddling class V water on a regular
>basis, you should be able to make your own independent judgement about
>each rapid.  If your decision process is affected by consideration of
>ratings cut as finely as V.2 vs. V.3, then you are probably splitting too
>many hairs to be running class V water.

I think I'm going to go along with this.  While the system certainly
isn't perfect, you should be boating with people at your ability and
with whose opinion you can trust.

--Chris
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Subject: Re: River ratings discussion
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:16:46 GMT

In <1992Jul29.170646.12480@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> barr@tramp.Colorado.EDU (BARR DOUG) writes:
>My proposal is this:
>Adopt a system of V.x, where x is 1,2,3, ... on up to however far you need.
>This openended system would allow the expert boaters who are pushing the
>limits to go up in grade as high as they can. And it would leave the current
>classic runs with their historical, and accepted ratings. 

I don't think it is meaningful to add extra grades to the rating system
because the difficulty of a rapid is quite variable, primarily due to 
changing water levels.  A guidebook rating of a rapid should never be
regarded as anything more than a rough estimate of its actual difficulty.
Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the boater to decide whether or
not a particular rapid is runnable.
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"Why can't we just forget about our constitutional problems and go canoeing?"
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: River ratings discussion
Date: 31 Jul 92 14:02:32 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <1992Jul29.170646.12480@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> barr@tramp.Colorado.EDU (BARR DOUG) writes:
>I would like to propose a change in the river rating system.
>Adopt a system of V.x, where x is 1,2,3, ... on up to however far you need.
>This openended system would allow the expert boaters who are pushing the
>limits to go up in grade as high as they can. And it would leave the current
>classic runs with their historical, and accepted ratings. 

The rating system is an attempt to reduce the complex and infinitely
varied features of all the rapids on the planet to one of six categories,
and as such, it has its limitations.  Knowing that a rapid is class III,
for instance, does not tell you all you need to know to run it.  The only
real way to assess the difficulty/danger of a rapid is to learn how to
read the water, and then go look at it yourself.  The advice of guidebooks
and of other experienced paddlers can be invaluable; but in the end, the
decision to paddle or portage is a highly personal one that everyone who
runs whitewater should learn to make.

To put it another way: if you plan on paddling class V water on a regular
basis, you should be able to make your own independent judgement about
each rapid.  If your decision process is affected by consideration of
ratings cut as finely as V.2 vs. V.3, then you are probably splitting too
many hairs to be running class V water.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle