From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Libertarians in WW2
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:16:02 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.232015.24734@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@dial.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>In article <1e9sdfINN6in@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov16.235843.2228@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>>|> In article <1992Nov16.204210.11462@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>
>>|> >> >Also, they were putting a good deal our ships to the
>>|> >> >bottom of the ocean at the time too. 
>
>>|> >> Because we were supplying the enemy.  Under a Lib States, the government
>>|> >> wouldn't be selling arms.
>
>>|> >Wrong. I'm sure the distinction would have been blurred on the
>>|> >Germans had "supplying of the enemy" been in an official
>>|> >capacity of the US government or just by private transactions
>>|> >of our population -- it made little differnce from their perspective.
>
>>|> But the English would have been sinking private ships selling to
>>|> the Germans.  Why do you think the Libs would've taken sides if 
>>|> both sides were sinking ships?
>
>>I see we are back to the "would have" arguments.
>
>>There's nothing so hypothetical about the history of the
>>two world wars that requires this kind of speculation.
>
>>The UK declared a blockade of Germany, and they did board and/or
>>seize ships carrying contraband to Germany.    This is in
>>accordance with applicable International Law.

>>However, they did *not* randomly sink ships, nor did they engage
>>in unrestricted submarine warfare against neutral shipping.

>Only because they didn't have submarines and didn't need to, having a
>powerful surface navy.  The Germans didn't really have much else they
>could do to enforce their own blockade against Britain -- they couldn't
>stop ships and board them from submarines, so they had to sink them to
>do what they were doing.

I believe the German blockade extended far beyond what was commonly recognized
as a blockade zone. Certainly, they sunk ships more than 1,000 mile from 
Britain, if they thought the ship was bound for those islands. 

And I believe the British did indeed have some submarines, though not to the
extent that some of the other combatants (US, Japan, and Germany) had. BTW,
both Japan and the US had rather large surface AND subsurface fleets, so
it is difficult to see the logic in the "Only because they didn't have 
submarines and didn't need to, having a powerful surface navy" statement.

>I'm not defending them, but I'm just saying that they weren't doing it
>because they were morally inferior to the British, but because that was
>the only means at their disposal.

They DID have some rather large battleships built to prey on shipping. In 
addition, in the early stages of the war, the FW-200c was very effective
at bombing convoys, until the British started mounting catapult-launched
Hurricanes on certain escort vessels.

>Are you saying a Libertarian government *wouldn't* object if the British
>navy went around seizing American ships because *they* had decided that
>we shouldn't be allowed to trade 'contraband' with Germany?  If not, why 
>not?  What gave the British the right to decide that someone couldn't sell
>something to someone?

International law? If a blockade is declared, you enter a blockade zone at your
own risk. I believe there were instances where US ships were turned back from
Germany in the early stages of the war. I do not know of any instance of a 
US ship attempting to run the blockade. 

What the Germans did that was fundamentally different from what most nations at
the time were doing (though it would be copied later) was declare "unrestricted
submarine" warfare. ANY traffic thought to bound for Britain and later the
USSR was subject to attack without warning. Surface blockades are much more
limited, and involve a warning to otherwise neutral shipping. They do not,
however, necessarily appear to be less effective.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Xref: sparky alt.politics.elections:23996 alt.politics.marrou:2313 soc.history:9463