From: eric@flab.fujitsu.co.jp (eric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands
Subject: Kinds of discrimination (was: Re: Job (baan))
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:16:35 GMT
	<ERIC.92Aug18100643@matisse.ling.flab.fujitsu.co.jp>
	<19AUG199209051648@mars.lerc.nasa.gov>
Organization: Fujitsu Laboratories Ltd., Kawasaki, Japan.
In-reply-to: spwim@mars.lerc.nasa.gov's message of 19 Aug 92 13:05:00 GMT

In article <19AUG199209051648@mars.lerc.nasa.gov>,
spwim@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Wim Degroot) wrote:

> In article <ERIC.92Aug18100643@matisse.ling.flab.fujitsu.co.jp>, eric@flab.fujitsu.co.jp (eric) writes...
> 
> >PS. For those of you who are interested, in Japan foreigners cannot
> >get jobs with any level of government; also, discrimination is not
> >illegal (they can keep you out of disco's, refuse to rent you a house
> >or whatever and just say up front "no, we don't take foreigners").
> 
> As far as I know, orientals in general are probably the most discriminating race
> out of all major races (my wife is oriental and she agrees). However, the 
> origin of that discrimination lies more in the closed society and the bad
> experiences they have had with other (especially whites) races, whereas the
> basis of discrimination of whites is generally hatred. (I am sorry if this
> strong statement hits a nerve in some places).

Well, my first reaction when I read this was, jezus, what kind of
apologetical BS is this? Not that you're hitting any raw nerve, I
can't imagine why I'd feel insulted or anything, but what you said
just struck me as nonsense. Then I thought about it a little, and it
occurred to me that you have a point, only you're using the wrong
words to express it. Here's what I have to offer.

1. The word "race" in your first sentence: I really don't think that
any one race is more prone to discriminate than any other. What you
say is in fact racist, as I think you'll agree. The key is not race,
it's society. Discrimination will occur most in societies that
legitimize, condone or encourage it.

2. Closed society and bad experiences: sorry, but that still sounds
apologetic to me, like you're saying they have a right to
discriminate.

3. Hatred: I don't particularly like this word (so heavily charged
emotionally), but anyway, I think hatred is the result of, as well as
a catalyst for discrimination rather than the cause.

I can't really judge about Eastern (East-Asian) societies in general,
since I only know Japan well, but I think you may have a point if you
say that there are differences in kind between discrimination in the
East and the West (Europe and North America). Here in Japan,
discrimination generally results in your being kept at a distance, and
in people making unwarranted assumptions about you on the basis of
your race. Violence generally does not come into the equation, and
people don't seem to "hate" you: they just don't want anything to do
with you. In the West (I think the difference between Europe and the
USA is in degree rather than in kind), on the other hand, people are
perhaps less likely to jump to strange conclusions (like: "he's black,
so he won't like boerenkool"; believe me, half of Japan seems to be
thinking in this vein), but "hate crimes" occur a lot and seem to be
on the rise.

Your explanation, however, doesn't satisfy me. Concerning the "bad
experiences" people in the East have had with other races: I think
just about every race has had bad experiences with whites, but the
Asians a lot less so than the Africans. As for the Japanese, they
never had bad experiences with other races (really nothing worth
mentioning), yet they discriminate like crazy. And not only other
races: Koreans in Japan (including third-generation Koreans, whose
grand-parents were brought to Japan before WWII, who are often fully
Japanized and can't speak Korean at all) actually have to face more
discrimination than I do, and the same can be said for "burakumin",
Japan's "unclean class". What you said about closed societies may be
true (it certainly makes sense in the case of Japan), but are all
Eastern societies, including Thailand, India, Indonesia etcetera,
historically closed ones? I'm no expert, but this is not my
impression.

This is not a matter we're gonna solve in a discussion on the net, but
I'll give you my ideas in a nutshell. First of all, the fact that
discrimination is less violent in the East may simply be due to
Eastern society being less violent (South Korea may be the exception
here; ever seen one of those student rallies?). Why that is, I don't
know (influence of Buddhism?). Society may also be a factor in another
way: many Eastern societies seem much more hierarchical than Western
ones, so that even discrimination *within* a society is a natural
thing (think of the parias in India, the burakumin in Japan). Finally,
religion may be a factor: Christianity teaches us that man was made in
God's image; this is a powerful basis for an egalitarian theory. (Just
to set matters straight, I am not a Christian and am in fact very
critical of Christianity.) Although the same can be said of Buddhism,
its influence in society is much less pervasive than Christianity's
influence in the West.

But all of these are only factors; the ugly fact is that all societies
discriminate (as far as I know), and nobody knows why (is it in our
genes?). Anyway, I think it is a generally accepted truth that
discrimination grows uglier as the economic situation deteriorates, so
that both America and Europe may be in for more trouble.

Eric.
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Eric M. Visser                         email: eric@flab.fujitsu.co.jp
Fujitsu Laboratories Ltd.              phone: 044 - 754 - 2671
Kawasaki, Japan                        fax  : 044 - 754 - 2570
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands