From: wasylik@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael Wasylik)
Subject: Re: Fraternities  was (Re: still more practical jokes
Organization: Ministry of Propaganda
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 19:22:29 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.002112.23394@athena.mit.edu> wjeuerle@athena.mit.edu
(William J Euerle) has the audacity to defend his beliefs:

>
>yes, but by knowing one member of a race, can you say that you KNOW and RESPECT
>the whole race? can you by knowing 20, 100, 1000?  You are still looking at just
>a small part of the race.  By the same token, by knowing people from 4, 5, or 20
>fraternities can you say you know how they all are?  
>

In the same vein, I have a close femal friend who belongs to the only co-ed
fraternity at NU.  From the stories she tells me (house members sexually
assaulting the 7 women out of a 40-member chapter, all kinds of other
disrespect going on)  adding women to the mix is not a solution.  That's like
saying the lions can be tamed if you throw a few Christians in their den.

The problem is not the fraternities themselves, it's the boys joining them.  I
have found that a lot of the people who seek to join fraternities were
assholes long before they got to college.  Fraternities happen to be a place
where they congregate.

Banning fraternities is not the solution, either.  At Notre Dame, these
assholes who normally would pledge a house that had other sexist assholes seek
an outlet through their dorms.  The dorms haze freshmen.  They consume alcohol
in mass quantities.  They perpetuate sexist attitudes.  If this the fault of
the fraternities?  No.  It is the fault of prevalent traditional attitudes.  
Closing down fraternitites won't even cure the symptoms... the assholes will
just go somewhere else.

Actually, if you ever look closely at what fraternities say they are
*really* about, i.e. the values they were founded to promote, I think you'd
like their ideas.  The problem is that the boys in the chapters are looking
for drinking buddies and a place to tuck their peckers at night.  They
couldn't give two shits about brotherhood or doing good for one's fellow
humanity.

What's the solution?  I doubt there is one.  We will always have assholes. 
Where they gather isn't really relevant.


>>>I find this ludicrous (sp?) and insulting. I have a load of female 
>>>friends, but even if I didn't, my lack of female friends would not 
>>>necessarily mean I didn't respect women. The bond I formed ith my brothers is 
>>>different entirly from the bonds I form with my other friends; the bonds I form
>>>with each of my friends is different from the bonds I have with all my other 
>>>friends. Each bond of friendship is different. Each boerhood is different.
>>>If you have exactly the same relationship with each of your friends, you must 
>>>lead a boring life.
>> 
>> Of course I never said that you have to have exacty the same relationship will
>> (with) each of your friends, but this is besides the point.  You say that if you
>> did not have any female friends, you would not necessarily disrespect women.  I
>> claim that a normal american male will disrespect women and tend to think of 
>> them as objects unless something occurs, like a close friendship, to lead him
>> otherwise.  This is a product of ages and ages of male dominated society.  Women
>> in mass media are portrayed more often than not as merely objects; look closely
>> at the next beer commercial if you don't believe me.  It takes something to
>> overcome this ingrained ignorance....how can you learn to overcome it if you
>> surround yourself with men who grew up in the same women-objectifying atmosphere
>> as yourself?   To put it more generally, how can you learn to see other points
>> of view if you only live with people who see it the same as you?  If there is
>> much more contact with men than with women every single day, how can you come
>> out with a balanced view?  I don't deny that it is possible, and hey, you may
>> be more well adjusted than I am, but following my reasoning here, how can you
>> say that the majority of fraternity men can learn to respect women simply by
>> living in a fraternity?
>
>Well, clearly there is everything before going to college.  My attitudes towards
>other cultures, races, and the opposite sex were pretty solid going into college.
> If anything, I am even more open to other cultures (etc) now than before, seeing
>how stupid and biased other people can be.  I think I have made my beliefs clear
>to my brothers, and I think my openness has affected at least one, for the
>better.  I wish you would stop using the term majority.  I though we are dealing
>with individuals (people) here.  Well, since the majority of MIT is male (about
>60-70%), men must be smarter than women.  (I don't believe this, of course)
>
>
>>>Pledge a fraternity. Make your desision about *that* *Particular* fraternity.
>>>Stop making silly generalizations. You are as bad as the sexist people you
>>>are trying (pathetically) to slam.
>> 
>> Well, sexist people deserve slamming....   I have made my decision about enough
>> particluar fraternities to feel able to generalize it this way....
>
>As generally open-minded as I am, I do feel that there are valid reasons for
>separate organizations for men and women (as social groups, not on any sort of
>professional/career level).  Just keep in mind that any generalization you make
>is (bound to be) wrong some of the time.  
>
>>>I'm sorry this is so insulting, but I get a little upset when people make
>>>a judgement about em when they have never met me. It's part of the reason I
>>>try not to do the same.
>> 
>> That's nice of you.  Although you did call me 'stupid' or some such earlier.
>> In any case, I am not offended.  I do hope you actually are different....


-- 
Mw

[ Michael Wasylik                     ><    I'd rather be                  ]
[ wasylik@casbah.acns.nwu.edu         ><    rich than stupid.              ]
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