From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: What feminists believe (was: Re: Male Men Bashers)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Distribution: world 
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:38:20 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.145031.13874@hellgate.utah.edu> galt%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.153141.1270@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan23.201809.730@hellgate.utah.edu> galt%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt) writes:
>>>In article <1993Jan22.093251.30@microsoft.com> jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:
>>>>>12. Women should be drafted as well, where a draft exists.
>>>>
>>>>YES.
>>>
>>>Why is this a feminist issue?  Currently, men's rights are denied by the
>>>draft, so you would like women to have the same rights taken away?  That
>>>is ridiculous.  To call that a feminist view is even more ridiculous.
>>
>>Not everyone feels a draft under certain circumstances would be 
>>wrong.
>>
>>Too often, women are denied entry into something and people say
>>things to the effect 'it's bad for men so women shouldn't have to
>>do it'.  It does no good for women's rights for women to be "protected" 
>>from something, even if many people find that something to be bad.
>
>You know, I think that it is unfair that women aren't allowed to die
>early from heart attacks.  To make things equal, we should develop
>a drug that lowers the life-span of women and force all women to take
>it... that way, women will have true equality.
>
>While we're at it, instead of increasing women's salaries to be the
>same as men's, let's just cut men's salaries to the level of women's.
>And what about rape?  The perfect solution is for more women to rape
>more men.

Don't you think this is just a little ridiculous?

>
>>If women want true equality they must be equal in all ways, including
>>times when it may not be much fun.  Including women in a draft is
>>very much a feminist issue.  How many times on the net have we heard
>>people say that women have it so much better because they don't
>>have to worry about a draft or combat positions?  This is then
>>often used to justify things like less pay for the same work.  Treating
>>women 'better' or in a 'special' manner makes it much easier for
>>people to deny them equality in other circumstances.
>
>This is not a case of women being treated "better", but of men being
>treated worse. 

There will never (and should never IMO) be a time when the US doesn't
have an army and I can imagine situations when a draft would be
appropriate.  It is not fair for 1/2 the population to be exempt
from something while the other half is not.  I don't care which
genders you're talking about here.

You may want to eliminate the draft entirely.  That's ok.  I feel
otherwise and also feel that it will be a long time before the
possibility of a draft is eliminated.  But while it's around, I
think women being eligible for it will go a long way in boosting
women's image as being competent and capable, not as something that
needs protecting.

>
>I see nothing wrong with letting women into combat.  If they want to
>fight, let them.  If they don't want to, don't conscript them.  I would
>like to have the same choice.

Why should women be treated better than men if a draft occurs?  I
certainly don't want "better" treatment.

>
>I find it hard to believe that very many feminists agree with you.  If
>they do, you can count me out.

I'll say it again.  When you give women special privledges, such as
not being called up for a draft, you put them on a pedestal.  People
will think of women as being "different".  You may see it as protecting
women from evils men have to bear.  Others will see women as being 
weaker or not as capable and something that needs protecting.  And once 
women are excluded from a draft or combat positions, it will be much easier 
to exclude them from other things, such as high risk (but high paying) jobs 
on the grounds that it's too dangerous.

Julie
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