HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ESMITH@SUVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.relusr-l
Subject: Re: Changing /signon options ?
Date: 26 Jan 93 12:43:22 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

On Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:50:44 CST Jim Glover (Key), Relay Op said:
>there are sites you can Telnet to which allow limited IRC access.)  IRC
>has no equivalent to Relay's ops.  But one concept IRC does have which has
>been hinted at here recently is the concept of a "channel op" who controls
>access to and some of the behavior of a channel (s)he has created, or has
>been granted control of.
>                                --Jim (Key)

   Jim,

   Just a correction. IRC does have the same concept of Relay ops. They
are interestingly enough called IRC ops. They have the ability to /kill
obnoxious users, ban users or complete nodes from channels, or virtually
any other aspect of the power a Relay op has.

   Since the admin at Syracuse pulled our access to Relay a few years ago
I have been using IRC. It's quite fascinating actually. There are many
more users on at a time and the population is quite diverse. I have yet to
be threatened by an op to change my nickname, and almost any discussion
from unix coding to sex can be found by doing a global search.

   For instance, as in Relay the /list will show you the public channels
and the topic for that channel. If you are not on a given channel a /who *
will list for you virtually all nicknames and the nodes (I'm being a
little simplistic here for the sake of brevity) of people currently using
IRC. You can even do wildcard searches such as /who *uscvm* which will
list for you all users with the character combination of uscvm in their
nickname or node list.

   Yes, IRC can be hectic at times, and it is much less policed than is
Relay. I have found this to be a pain at times, but then, I find the
openness of IRC and the lack of ops looking over my shoulder to be very
refreshing.

   My humble opinion. Your mileage may vary.

   As Always,
     Timber
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.relusr-l
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:51:34 MET
From:         Fred Melssen <U211610@HNYKUN11.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Changing /signon options ?

>My suggestion: _IF_ the ch is full, then the user be allocated to the _next_
>channel that is open for additional users.

Good suggestion. Maybe the following one is even better: Do not allocote
users on any channel at all when they sign on. Only when they choose
a channel by themselves they are put on it.

Greetings, Fred
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.relusr-l
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Relay Ops and IRC Equivalent
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:27:37 GMT

VK> == Valdis Kletnieks <VALDIS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU>

 ckd> If you want a quiet channel for people to converse, and you don't
 ckd> want anyone kicking, or whatever, start your channel, invite some
 ckd> people, and don't give anyone else channel operator!

 VK> Does this mean that the IRC folk *finally* plugged that little hole
 VK> that allowe basically anybody to seize channel operator privs whether
 VK> or not you wanted to grant them?

Pretty much.  Obviously, a compromised server can still get you, given the
current trust model.  And in any case, most IRC operators are more than
willing to stomp on people who use down-rev servers to get channel op.

 VK> Security-wise, IRC leaks like a sieve.  Take note of this anytime you
 VK> *think* you know who you're talking to...

Given the passwords some people use, the same applies to ANY computerized
communication, including talk, BITNET Relay, IRC...
--
 * Christopher Davis * <ckd@eff.org> * <ckd@kei.com> * [CKD1] * MIME * RIPEM *
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:50:33 GMT-0200
From:         Valdir Santos <W_IQ1@CCVAX.UNICAMP.BR>
Subject:      Re: Relay Ops and IRC Equivalent

how can I sign off this list?
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.relusr-l
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 11:22:54 CST
From:         michael osterbuhr <N018GH@TAMVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Changing /signon options ?

I agree with Kevin - there are definate advantages to sitting on a slow
channel and just sending /messages to others, and maybe starting up your
own channel.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:45:00 GMT
Reply-To:     CBTS8001@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE
From:         Peter Flynn <CBTS8001@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE>
Subject:      Re: USING IRC

>I'm pretty new to this internet stuff and would like to
>know how I could get access to IRC and use it.  I have Internet but was told
>that I needed access to an IRC client and a server to talk to.  I was just
>wondering if any of you guys know a client and server that I could use.
>Any Information or help would be most welcome...TIA (Thanks In Advance)!

There is a VMS client for irc, I have an old copy somewhere if you give
me time, but it's probably better to ftp the source and compile a new
one yourself. The canonical server is irc.mit.edu but there are probably
others closer to you: you can ask around once you get onto irc.

ARCHIE will tell you where your nearest source is: telnet to
archie.mcgill.ca (I think), login as 'archie' (no password) and type
'prog ircII' which will tell you everywhere that has a copy of the ircII
program (probably in tar.Z form)

///Peter
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Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.relusr-l
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:48:43 EST
From:         Valdis Kletnieks <VALDIS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: "Super-private" channels

On Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:15:46 -0700 <SAWYER@NAUVAX> said:
>I have a question concerning all of the Classes.
>I am curious as to what the class levels are for
>Relay and how one would get a certain level on Relay?
>Thanks in advance

Basically:

0 - locked out of RELAY
1,2 - normal users - no distinction made by the RELAY code.
3 - a "general" user (poor choice of term) - has a few added abilities
4-7 - various levels of "relay op"
8,9 - Masterop.

/Valdis
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:50:00 GMT
Reply-To:     CBTS8001@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE
From:         Peter Flynn <CBTS8001@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE>
Subject:      Re: USING IRC

>                                                Nick: Shaman
>                                                Node: LCVAX
>                                                Lctn: New York, USA

BTW my mailer crunches headers, so giving your nick and node isn't much
use. I'd need your userid as well so I know where to send the progs if I
find them.

///Peter
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:50:41 -0500
From:         PIMBRES1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Ops and all this private garbage.

Howdy all,
   I was just wondering about these private and super duper private channels.
We now have this incredible selection of channels but can the ops monitor all
these channels?  Is there any place that we can talk without any fear of the
varied tempered ops? Don't mean to cause any trouble just wondering about some
of the parameters of this incredible communication devices. :)
  See-ya
    PEETA! aka Dr.Suess
PS- What exactly is the point where the descriptive becomes obscene.  It might
be good to know.  :p
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.relusr-l
Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:17:45 EDT
From:         Eric Lerognon <LEROGNON@FRECP12.BITNET>

This mail is for people on Bitnet who don't have access to Internet
and wish to know about IRC. Last year I was in this situation and
would have liked someone to tell me things about IRC. Now I
have Internet and IRC and wish to give people an idea of it.
The other can skip the mail.

About IRC.

IRC is something like Relay on Internet.
It means Internet Relay Chat.

IRC advantages.

IRC has all that Relay has not : it is far more complex
based on a client-server philosophy which allow you
to connect to a server from different machine, so
that you can have an IRC client under DOS, Unix, CMS, Vax ...
even if the more reliable and coherent is IRCII under unix.
There are uncreedingly more command for irc and you
have the speed and reliability of Internet. You don't have
link failure and you have quite real time between usa and europe.
You have much more people : average 500. You have a client
under emacs lisp which makes irc available from the standard
environment of any unix wizard. You can log on multiple
channels simultaneously. You have channel operators.
You have an extremely customisable environment.
You have much more topics : talk, hottub, hotsex, linux,
many european speaking channels, operators channels for
questions, and during Desert Storm there was a live
info channel.

IRC drawbacks.

On IRC you never know when you're speaking to a machine (called
bot) or a human. I mean, there are Service Machines connected
to IRC all the time for Nickname uniqueness or help to new
users. Other bots are logged on channels in order to provide
op-status to registered users. And there are bots which
simulate human conv. as Eliza used to do in Relay. BTW there
is Eliza on IRC. And sometimes you get lost : is there a human
being on the other side ?
I find IRC less friendly than Relay. Maybe because I have experienced
Relay since 3 years as an op and feel really at ease there.
But I don't feel really in confidence on IRC.

Eric Lerognon, Rix, operator for RELAY@FRECP12 (Paris, France).
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Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.relusr-l
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:10:21 EST
From:         Valdis Kletnieks <VALDIS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: "Super-private" channels

On Wed, 20 Jan 1993 20:39:00 EST <KAKERS@UTKVX> said:
>  I was wondering, do any of you intelligent gents or gentesses have any
>insights on "super-private" channels?
>
>    ......what are they?
They're channels with negative numbers ( /ch -134562  or similar)

>    ......why are they?
So you can talk on a "hidden" channel for something serious and not be
interrupted by /msg's from people who see you on a /names.  Makes it a
lot easier to use RELAY for academic conferences, etc.

>    ......who can use them?
In Relay V2.06, you need to be "class 3" or better.  In V2.07, all users
will be able to use them.  Note that currently only RELAY@VTVM2 has the code
enabled to do this - I expect to be shipping a test copy to several other
sites in the near future (a week or so)...

>    ......why isn't it me?(!) :)
Because you're not using RELAY@VTVM2, which allows it (other sites will be
running it soon as well).

/Valdis
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:11:00 GMT
Reply-To:     CBTS8001@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE
From:         Peter Flynn <CBTS8001@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE>
Subject:      Re: Relay Ops and IRC Equivalent

>
>how can I sign off this list?
>

Normally, the same way you sign on, by mailing listserv@ncsuvm with
the message unsub relusr-l (or by sending that as an interactive
message...however, I just tried to set myself nomail and listserv says
the list has been locked by the owner since 16-jan, so right now, no-one
can subscribe, unsubscribe or reset their parameters. I've mailed
postmaster@ncsuvm asking them to unlock the list.

///Peter
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.relusr-l
Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:52:06 -0500
From:         "David L. Boucher" <FAC2445@UOFT01.BITNET>

> >PS- What exactly is the point where the descriptive becomes obscene?
>
> If it helps any,  I personally judge by the rule  "Would they allow this
> to be said on prime-time US network TV without <bleep>ing it?"

That seems like a pretty good rule of thumb to me.

Incidentally, I recently noticed that the bleeping practices for
Canadian TV are somewhat different from those in the US.  I was watching
a movie that was being shown simultaneously on independant stations in
Detroit and Toronto.  The movie made liberal use of a certain 12-letter
four-syllable expression that begins with the letter "m".  The Detroit
station bleeped only the last two syllables of this expression, but the
Toronto station bleeped only the FIRST two syllables.  I suppose this
might reflect a difference in judgement as to which part of the word
is more obscene... shades of "Brave New World"... ;)

- xenon
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:10:00 EST
From:         Senthil Ramas Kumar <SRK106@PSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Changing /signon options ?

>Good suggestion.  Maybe the following one is even better: Do not allocote
>users on any channel at all when they sign on.  Only when they choose >a
channel by themselves they are put on it.  > >Greetings, Fred


I think, this is what is currently done in IRC.  But, I think, that to
implement such a scheme on the relay, will require significant re-writing of
the code, since this is something which will effect the behaviour in a very
basic way.

whereas, my original suggestion, shud take very little modification in the
code.

all, IMHO, of course :)

Kumar
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 00:36:00 EST
From:         Senthil Ramas Kumar <SRK106@PSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Changing /signon options ?

well, I do really know about /signon 23 et al, _but_ I think, that the relay
shud have the feature that I was talking about.

Kumar
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:47:00 EST
From:         Senthil Ramas Kumar <SRK106@PSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Changing /signon options ?

>
>As for the original query - the reason that /signon fails if ch 1 is full
>is because when I was writing the code, I figured that it would be rather
>confusing for novice users if they did a /signon, and found themselves on
>channel 3 or 4 (which could happen if 1,2, and 3 are all full).  Then you'd
>get all the problems of "I did a /names 1, I signed on, and all the users are
>different"...
>
>It's easy enough to code the change if there's sufficient demand for it..
>
>/Valdis


one can always setup messages, saying what the position is.  eg.  if user
does /signon 1, and if ch 1,2 are full, the relay can send a set of
messages, "Sorry Ch 1 is full, Trying Ch 2", "Sorry Ch 2 is Full, Trying Ch
3" and finally "U are in Ch 3, welcome et al".

this can get nasty if say the user signs on to channel "n" and if all the
channels "n" to say "n+10" are full, then the user has to go thru all the
stupid messages, saying that ch n, ch n+1 et al are full, but the
probability of this happening is _very slim_.

now all we need is to let Valdis do the coding :)

Kumar
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 00:26:24 -0700
From:         SAWYER@NAUVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: Changing /signon options ?

It would be nice so that if you signon it would it would put you onto
a channel.  A possible way to solve this would be to possibly make channel 0
a depository for overflow from channel 1.  This would allow more people to log
into relay easier because  it would shorten the command and for the impatient
users it would help them get on quicker instead of having to wait 15 minutes
after tring to log into channel 1.
        Well at least it is food for thought
                        Scott Sawyer
                        aka Knight
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:00:00 EST
From:         SAM <HISHAM@LCVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      USING IRC

Fellow Relayers,
        GREETINGS!  I'm pretty new to this internet stuff and would like to
know how I could get access to IRC and use it.  I have Internet but was told
that I needed access to an IRC client and a server to talk to.  I was just
wondering if any of you guys know a client and server that I could use.
Any Information or help would be most welcome...TIA (Thanks In Advance)!
                                                Nick: Shaman
                                                Node: LCVAX
                                                Lctn: New York, USA
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:38:52 EST
From:         Jason Frye <ujfrye@MCS.DREXEL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Relay Ops and IRC Equivalent

This is a test I am running thru a forwarding adress hope this gets out
into the real world... 1 respose only please.

jason frye (JAWS)
ujfrye@mcs.drexel.edu
or
st92aruf@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
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From: ENMORRIS@ECUVM1.BITNET (V C Morrison)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.relusr-l
Subject: Re: Changing /signon options ?
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:18:14 GMT
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X-Acknowledge-To: <ENMORRIS@ECUVM1>

But is it really such a chore to type

/si 543

instead of

/si

?

I never sign onto channel 1 anyway, unless I'm ultra-bored, or am meeting
someone there.


_________/
________/\
_______/\ \
______/\ \ \
_____/\ \ \ \     "If I cannot bring you comfort,
____/\ \ \ \ \     Then at least I bring you hope."
___/\ \ \ \ \ \
__/\ \ \ \ \ \ \
  \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
   \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\-={W A L K   T H E   W E B}=_________________________
   / / / / / / / /                           enmorris@ecuvm1.bitnet
  / / / / / / / /      []dreamweaver[]   enmorris@ecuvax.cis.ecu.edu
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:08:34 EST
From:         Rich Jacobs <RJACOBS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Relay Ops and IRC Equivalent

     Hi everyone.. :) :)  Jim Glover said in a recent post to the RELUSR-L....
>.....IRC has no equivalent to Relay's ops.  But one concept IRC does have
>which has been hinted at here recently is the concept of a "channel op" who
>controls access to and some of the behavior of a channel (s)he has created, or
>has been granted control of.

     This is one of the major reasons why I avoid IRC most of the time.  There
are *to many* people with higher privalages on IRC and I see this "channel op"
privelage as being abused to a very high degree.  I have been on channels where
people are booted off for no reason at all.  It is not uncommon to see 5 and 6
people booted off a channel.  When you have so many people that have that type
of power, there is a great chance of it being abused.  And I have seen it in
action.

     I know that IRC has *many* more users than relay does, and I guess it does
make sense to have some type of controls, but I think having a "channel op" or
some type of equivalent for relay is really not needed.

     I think I speak for the vast majority of relay users in saying that we
monitor and control ousrselves very well.  If there is any type of problem it
is usually corrected by the parties involved.  If a problem continues than a
relay op, or master op is called in.  I think this method has proved to be very
good.  From talking to people on relay who have had some type of problem, I
have heard nothing but fairness and impartiality from the ops!

     What does everyone else think?

     Take care everybody.....

                             Rich (Maledancer)
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:55:33 -0700
From:         SAWYER@NAUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Becoming a relay Op

I am interested in becoming a relay op.  What are the responsibilities and the
duties of a Relay Op and how do I become one?   Thanks in advance
                Scott Sawyer
                Knight, Redd, Me, . etc.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 11:37:18 EST
From:         V C Morrison <ENMORRIS@ECUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Changing /signon options ?

That's a good idea.  However, a default channel would be needed for those who
just do not identify a certain channel.  How about..ummm...channel 1?  <gryn>


_________/
________/\
_______/\ \
______/\ \ \
_____/\ \ \ \     "If I cannot bring you comfort,
____/\ \ \ \ \     Then at least I bring you hope."
___/\ \ \ \ \ \
__/\ \ \ \ \ \ \
  \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
   \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\-={W A L K   T H E   W E B}=_________________________
   / / / / / / / /                           enmorris@ecuvm1.bitnet
  / / / / / / / /      []dreamweaver[]   enmorris@ecuvax.cis.ecu.edu
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 08:30:29 LCL
From:         ESMITH@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Relay Ops and IRC Equivalent
              25 Jan 1993 17:01:39 EST from <VALDIS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU>

On Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:01:39 EST Valdis Kletnieks said:
>Does this mean that the IRC folk *finally* plugged that little hole that
>allowe basically anybody to seize  channel operator privs whether or not
>you wanted to grant them?
>

   Valdis,

   Yep, with the exception of an IRC op. If you start your own channel
you are, by default, made channel operator and can give or remove the
op status from any other person on that channel. You can also set the
channel to limit topic list changes to only operators on the channel,
protect the channel from broadcast from users outside the channel, set
the channel to invite only, or a number of other states. But of course,
you already know this.

   An IRC op however can come onto a channel and give themselves op status
and do all of the above. They typically deal with idiots who come on to a
channel, de-op others on the channel, then begin haranguing others on the
channel. I've seen it happen only 2 times in 2 years, and typically
on a channel like #GBLF (Gays, Bi's, Lesbians, and Friends). I suppose
an IRC op is similar to a Relay Masterop.

   As Always,
     Timber
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:40:00 EST
From:         SAM <HISHAM@LCVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Relay Ops and IRC Equivalent

Thanks, for the info, Rich. But actually I would just like to try out the IRC no
   t live with it so if u can tell me how I can get on it would be most apprecia
   ted!
                                        TIA (Thanks In Advance) SHAMAN
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