From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Subject: Re: Lifestyle Choices and Secular Reasoning
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 06:50:11 GMT

kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>>I am perfectly aware of the references to the Christan God in the D.
>>of I.  Jefferson was a Deist, but by no stretch of the word was he a
>>Christian.  The references to "God" were common in the literature of
>>the day, and were politically correct.  They served the needs of the
>>American colonies, especially when King George III supposedly had
>>"divine providence".  Call it undermining the king's authority.

>>Proof that this country was founded on a belief in God?  Nope.

>That alone is not, of course.  But if you'd done any study of the 
>tenor of the times, you would necessarily reach a different conclusion.
>I have neither the time nor the bandwidth to conduct an Intro to 
>American history course, but the 18th century was not yet the time
>of atheists - it was simply culturally impossible to conceive of a
>universe in which no God existed.  They hadn't developed enough of the
>necessary concepts.  They certainly had conceived of a God that was
>many times more remote than any God since Allah, but they had not yet
>succeeded in abolishing Him from Creation.  That took the 19th 
>century, Darwin, Marx, and Nietszche to accomplish.

You certainly act like you know a lot about history to be ignorant of
the fact that it was politically incorrect and socially unacceptable
to _not_ profess a Christian belief in 18th century America.  Many of
the founding fathers were highly visible men who had what could
loosely be considered political careers to worry about.  It would have
been suicide for their careers to openly profess atheism.  

Claiming affiliation to a particular church and even regularly
attending services does not make one a Christian, or have you
forgotten one of the common lessons taught to Christians?  So-called
"True" Christians are constantly denouncing those who leave their
Christianity at the church doorstep, regularly attending church merely
for appearances.

>>Untrue.  In the U.S. legal system individuals 18 and over are assumed
>>competent.  A third party may question their competence, and only
>>_then_ must they attempt to prove it.  Individuals under 18 are
>>assumed incomptetent.

>They prove competency by their age.

You don't prove anything by turning 18.  At that age, you have legal
competency thrust upon whether or not you are competent, and
irregardless of how long you may have been competent.

>>However, like I said, science at least offers proof of some of its
>>basic phenomena.  Religion offers none.

>And you can't prove the existence of color to a blind man.  The proof
>of science, like that of religion, is only useful to those who have
>eyes to see.

Of course, the religious only think that those who share their beliefs
can see.  There are also probably quite a few blind Christians out
there who would be insulted by your narrow-minded comparison.  But of
course Christians don't care who they insult, do they?

>>There are certainly several scientific theories that can only be
>>accepted in faith.  However, this differs quite a bit from religion in
>>which _all_ of the theories are accepted in faith.

>Read Thomas Kuhn "Structure of Scientific Revolutions"  Your ideas are
>20 years out of date.

Based on one man's opinion?  Not bloody likely.  Plenty of nuts write
books, and certain people accept them as experts after that.

>>I find it amazing, though characteristic of many Christians, that you
>>see your narrow views as "what religion is about".  This goes to show
>>how little you know about it.  Several billion people would disagree
>>with you.

>I wasn't aware that truth was subject to majority rule.

If you claim that which you take on absolute faith to be true, you
deny "truth" to others who accept their own religious beliefs on
absolute faith.  I personally consider your use of the word "truth" in
that context irresponsible, bigotted, and characteristic.  However, if
you want to deny the fact that there are many relgions out there that
have as much basis as Christianity, go right ahead.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
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