From: abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Germans and Jews
Date: 28 Jan 93 15:14:42 EST
Followup-To: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <dieter-280193084629@frueh-koelsch.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>, 
dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:
> In article <1993Jan27.174108.19877@husc3.harvard.edu>,
> abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu wrote:
>> 
>> In article <dieter-270193102700@frueh-koelsch.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>, 
>> dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:
> 
>> >> Ever read Remark?
>> > 
>> > No. What's the name of his book?
> 
> "Im Westen nichts Neues", rather famous book. Haven't read it, though.
> 
>> and
> "Zeit zu leben, Zeit zu sterben", also heard about that.

I advise you to read them. Especially "Im Westen nichts Neues". He personaly
took part in WW1, but he has to emigrate in 1933 (because his open anti-Nazi
position from the beginning of the movement) and his books were burnt. So he
didn't take part in WW2 and even with best authors you could feel the
difference between personal experience and imagination. It is a movie with the
same title and a good one! But if you can find time to read a book it is always
better.

> 
>> > In that, I agree. Didn't the Germans after the war admit their moral 
>> > faults?
>> 
>> Government did. Under Allies occupation. I am not sure that average Germans
>> admitted their moral faults.
> 
> Government was elected by those average Germans, and the allied occupation 
> ended in '49 (not officially, this was only after the wall fell, but in 
> practice, when the first chancellor and his government were elected; there
> was no outside force necessary for Germany to take the moral consequences
> of the war. 

I think any goverment, even elected by Nazis, would begin with such
declaration. It was very important in establishing normal relations with other
European countries and US. I am not saying that this declaration was not
honest. I am saying that it might be and I am not sure.
 
> How do you expect a specific person to admit his moral guilt? 

I don't mean any deeds. I thought about admitting it their mind, which is more
difficult.
 
> When I was 11, I have taken part in an exchange program with France, which 
> had been arranged to improve the relationship between Germany and France. 
> Such programs are also planned for Poland.

Germany is trying to improve relations with other Europen contries? Yes I
believe it. What has it to do with moral guilt? Hitler tried to improve
relations with England in 1940. 

>> I think that living with foreigners have nothing to do with racism, even 
>> though it sounds "strange". Poles lived with Jews for 800 years. There were 
>> 3.5 millions of Jews in a country of 27 millions and antisemitism was *very* 
>> strong. There are 3000 Jews now in Poland and antisemitism *is* very strong. 
>> BTW, Hitler recieved 38% of votes in 1932. 40% is *VERY* much. Don't forget
>> that extremists are always more politicaly active then average folks, who 
>> might easily be lazy to vote.

> Uh, oh, this was a mistype; I meant to say 1/4, which is 25 %, not 40 %.
> East German population is approx. 20 millions, West German is 60 millions.
> And don't expect that those 20 million vote extremely more rightist than
> the west does; actually, they have somewhat more socialist voters and
> gradually more right extremist voters, but still about 5 % only. And as for
> lazyness to vote: yes, Germans are rather lazy to vote sometimes, so that
> only 80 % of the population take part in an election. What were the US
> figures? 40 %? No, can't believe this...

As a matter of fact 55%. I am sure that not every German from the East is a
fascist. I simply wanted to mention to you that 40% and 25% is not that small
number so that you could say: "They are minority! They will never be able to
win!" BTW, did you agree that living with foreigners have nothing to do with
racism?

> Different problems, same people, same behaviour, so nothing is special about
> the Germans.

Sure. I just showed you that even 128 years after Civil War anti-black feelings
might rise to dangerous level in the South (Duke hated Jews because of high
degree of intermarriage with black people. He said that they are spoiling other 
white people). And this is eventhough many people came from North and Europe
after 1865. So I that is why I am "suspicious" to Germans as nation. But this
has nothing to do with any German in particular. 

> If we can agree in this point, we can end the discussion here. 

Do you agree with me in this point?
 
> Nobody says that the Germans behaved sensible or tolerable, they behaved 
> awkwardly. 

"Awkardly"??? Well I think they behaved horrible.

>It's only that this hasn't got to do with their Germanness...

It didn't. But (see above) I think this has got to do now.

>> They didn't learn how costly are wars (a *lot* of Germans were killed in 
>> WW1). Why should I expect the to learn it from WW2?
 
> As I said, those two wars cannot be compared, and therefore, no conclusion 
> about post-WW2-Germany can be drawn from post-WW1-Germany.

I know you will not agree with me, but I think WW1 was more horrible for
Germany then WW2. You are talking about WW2 just because it was later. Why I
think so?

1)Losses were lager in WW2 but comparable and in 1914 nobody could even imagine
that war might be so cruel. They expected a war, which will be similar to wars
of 19-th century. It was not a case in 1939.
2)Germany (44 years old country) never experienced defeat. Moreover it easily
won wars with such countries as Austria and France.
3)Germany never experienced really hard economic problems. It was country #1 in
Europe and in reality already "got its place under sun".

After awful loses, hard defeat, unfair and unexpectedly hard terms of piece,
ruined economy for many years people became more cruel (which let Nazis got a
power) but more "experienced" which made a blow of WW2 less sensible.

Even if it is untrue I don't belive in war's lessons. People were always stupid
enough to forget or don't understand them.

> To the contrary, in Italy, the situation is like during the Weimar Republic, 
> with coalitions of 5 or so parties and a new government every half or full 
> year. And they have strong facists. Aren't you afraid of them more? Why not? 
> Do you think that Italian facism is less anti-semitic than German?

Again. What has Italy to do with "Jews and Germans"? OK. I don't like Italian 
political sistem. I am not afraid Italians facists as well as Germans. I hate
them. Italian facism is less anti-semitic than German. (Not a single Jew was
murdered in Italy before Germany occupied it in 1943. And after that Jews
recieved a lot of support from local population). But you could never be sure 
with fascists. 

>> > This is true for individuals, not for generations. [...] What also counts 
>> > is what they are taught in school. 
>> 
>> Sure. Only for individuals. But I suspect that there are more such 
>> individuals in generation. BTW, I began not with your generation, but with 
>> generation of, lets say, your father. What did your father was taught in 
>> school? Did you ever looked through his textbooks?
 
> They are long gone. He went to school starting in 1940, when he was 6.
> The main part of his education was after the war.

I don't agree comletely. It is very important what boy would be taught when he
is 6-11 years old. It is difficult to change later.
 
> Following your logic, he must have strongly been influenced by the Nazis,
> and therefore, through his influence, I should have racist ideas, too.
> Do I? Tell my students (one from Turkey, one from Iran; our institute
> has 20 foreign foreign students and masters of science, at the institute,
> a total of 70 people work).

Oh! It is partly my fault. I shouldn't say "your father". I should say "child
of the same age as your father". Don't take it personal. Should I excuse
myself? Following my logic, the boy of the same age as your father *usually* 
influenced by Nazis. His son, the same age as you, *usually* influenced by him
and that is why taking Germans *from Germany* randomly I think we will have
more people with racist ideas. But don't you see it is usually squared and in
any case have to deal with individuals. So according to my logic I don't have
any right to tell that you or your father have any racist ideas. And BTW,
didn't your father have rather unusual upbringing? 
 
                                Cordially

                             Victor Abkevich
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german