From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Using the dictionary
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:05:47 GMT
	<AWERLING.92Sep11120925@dante.nmsu.edu>
Organization: savage hackers
NNTP-Posting-Host: death.corp.sun.com
In-reply-to: awerling@nmsu.edu's message of Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:09:25 GMT


In article <AWERLING.92Sep11120925@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
>In article <fysn19+.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
> -awerling@nmsu.edu writes:
>    >It's very easy to crack open a dictionary and use it to define
>    >something.  But that is really very dishonest.  
> -   Dishonest? You're joking, right?
> Nope.

  Amazing.  To ignore what a dictionary says... sigh.  It's not the end
of all arguments, but it certainly can shed light on subjects.

> That is true.  How does your dictionary define "sexism"?  The
> dictionary here in the computer lab is dated 1960, and doesn't have a
> definition at all.  I wonder how a modern dictionary will define that
> word.  

  My 1976 Webster's new collegiate dictionary defines sexism as:

Prejudice or discrimination based on sex; esp: discrimination against
women.

  (Quick definitions of prejudice and discrimination; prejudice is 
an "irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a
group, a race, or their supposed characteristics".  Discrimination is
"a prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment.")

  What's wrong with that?  Seems reasonably succinct to me.
Dictionaries may often give several definitions, due to the word
being used in different contexts or its changing meaning over time.
For instance, with the word "discrimination", there is a non-negative
meaning of it -- that of distinguishing something from another, but that
is clearly not the meaning that people intend when they use the word
"sexism".  This is even made more clear by the dictionary because it
equates the usage of discrimination and prejudice.  So I don't think
it's at all useless, although sometimes you have to use a bit of thought
to see what it's really trying to say....

> The thing is, we all know that the way we use the word "sexist" is
> *not* in some way "neutral."  The word has negative implications.  A
> dictionary probably will not capture what we mean when we say
> "sexist." 

  You might try a bit later version.  I don't expect that your
dictionary has a hell of a lot to say about computers or space
exploration stuff either, but I don't fault it for that, or say that
they are inherently deficient.  Things change, and dictionaries can
actually be quite a useful tool.  In any case, I'd say that "prejudice"
and "discrimination" are *not* neutral, dry terms that don't capture
anything about what sexism is.

> My only point is that a dictionary is not very useful when we all know
> the basic premise of a word.

  The problem is that quite a few people are ignorant, about
dictionaries and about the meanings of words in general.  And people try
to redefine (incorrectly) words in an attempt to undermine what other
people are saying (e.g. those people who define "feminist" as
"castrating woman"... *smile*)

>    >The dictionary is
>    >only a launching pad towards understanding anything.  You people
>    >already know what these terms mean.  
> -   If there were agreement, this thread would not exist.
> Nonsense.  We all know that he is used gender-neutrally.  The thread
> is about the implications.  The effects.   What such a useage *does*.

  We don't all know, because it's not true.  The effects are obvious --
I just posted a study (here in alt.feminsim) done that showed that using
"man" for people was *not* a nuetral term, and that people *did*
associate males when the term was used.  It doesn't really matter what
my inner feelings on the word are, if I call all women "sluts", then I
should expect to have a different reaction than if I used a word with
less negative meaning.  You can use "he" as a gender neutral term all
you want, but it's not -- unless you look it up some definitions of how
it's used in a dictionary, say... *smile*... (which, of course, only
says that you have to take dictionaries with a grain of salt....)

> -   Different people have different "experiences", the experiences are
> -   what they are about. But if we all mean different things when using
> -   the same words, these experiences cannot be shared.
> That's true.  But we are all using the same words here.  

  Indeed.  But when you say things like "he" is a gender neutral term,
you're wrong.  When you say that using a dictionary is dishonest, I
think you're off the deep end.  We are using the same words, but if we
disagree with the definitions, connotations, or their effects, then
we're not really communicating with them.

 -- d