HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: egyed@lns598.tn.cornell.edu (Zoltan Egyed)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Freestyle camp
Date: 22 Dec 1992 12:29:07 -0500
Organization: Wilson Lab, Cornell U., Ithaca, NY  14853
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: lns572.tn.cornell.edu

Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu) writes:

>Can anyone
>compare the training camps given by Mike Michigan and Tamara Koyn?  Just
>based on the personalities of the people involved, I'd suspect that Mike
>might teach more to the techniques and Tamara more to the philosophy, but I
>certainly do not know this be true.  Can anyone add some data points?

I have read notes made at Mike's camp, and talked to a participant. He teaches
fewer techniques than Tamara. It is like an entertaining show. When the show
is over, there is not much left. It is also more chaotic.
I wouldn't spend my time on it.
Tamara did teach techniques, and in addition to that, a systematic way
to continue. I use a lot of things from there.
Dale? I'd be curious what kind of training she would give. She is
certainly very good, but in creativity, she is behind. Also, being good
at something does not mean that you can teach it too.

  Zoltan Egyed
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: mark@vti.com (Mark Smith)
Subject: Re: Adrenalin rush, (was Re: Taking chances)
Reply-To: mark@vti.com
Organization: Virtual Technologies, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 13:27:00 GMT

Jeff Scrutton (scrutton@Predator.Ocean.Dal.CA) wrote:
: 
: I'd like to know how many of y'all don't get the adrenalin rush?

I have around 500 and I wouldn't say that the adrenaline rush is
gone, but it is certaintly different than my first few jumps.
I like to think of it as love.

When you first fall in love, there's a burning passion: you can't
do without her (written from my male perspective).  Then, as time
goes on, you're still in love, but it's a mellow mature sort of love.

When I first started, I became so addicted to the chemical ride
that if more than two weeks went by w/o a skydive, I'd be a bitch
to everyone until I got my fix (read: jump).

Now, I'll still risk frost bite on 10 F degree days for want of
a jump, but I won't get bitchy if I can't.  I know she'll (read:
skydiving) still be there when the weather clears up.

$0.02
--
      /_\   Virtual                  Mark Smith          USPA D-13761
    /-~_  \    Technologies          mark@vti.com
  /      ~-_\     Incorporated       703-430-9247,   FAX 703-450-4560
/_____________\      46030 Manekin Plaza, Suite 160, Dulles, VA 20166

Entropy isn't what it used to be.
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee)
Subject: AADs
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 01:44:50 GMT

Despite all the fancy gadgets being invented to save jumpers from themselves,
skydiving is still a dangerous sport.  The best device for deploying a
parachute is still a hand hanging a pilot chute in the breeze.  The best
device for monitoring altitude is still the eyes (no offense John! ).  And
you enjoy other jumpers, but watch out for yourself.  And still people will
bounce. Sigh

It'll never be completely safe, what is?  All we can do is try to reduce it.

Thanks, I'll step off my soapbox now 8)

-Bobby Magee-
D-371
Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: esj@eng.ufl.edu (Eric S. Johnson)
Subject: Re: f a q (instructor aided d
Organization: Engineering Computing Services - Univ. of Fla.
Distribution: rec
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 14:22:08 GMT

>Maybe the hanging exit would of helped the first jump student at my DZ who 
>lost his two front teeth on the step of a C182.  The first jump here is a 
>level 1 AFF jump with 2 instructors, this guy didn't PUSH at all with his 
>arms he just hopped off the step and went straight down onto it.

Show me an Lv I AFF student doing a hanging exit from a cessna and Ill show you 
two of the most creative and agile AFF JM's in the sky.... 

;-)

Merry Xmas and fun dives in '93
Ej
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: lonhyn@gulag.nas.nasa.gov (Lonhyn T. Jasinskyj)
Subject: Eloy net get-together over Xmas/New Year's
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 19:40:07 GMT
Reply-To: lonhyn@nas.nasa.gov


I was wondering how many of you are going to be at Eloy over the
Christmas and New Year's boogie.  I'd be interested in trying to
get together and see each others' offensive visages and maybe even
make some freefall parachute jumps.  I am rather sure that I'll be
going, it all depends on the weather.

I'll be glad to put together a net mailing list of people who will
be there or think that they will and coordinate something.  Send mail
to "lonhyn@nas.nasa.gov" and any info about which days you are thinking
of being there.  It would be nice to attach some faces to people you
see on the net.

lonnie


-- 
        -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
           Email to: lonhyn@nas.nasa.gov     Human at: 415-604-3989
        -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From: pvf@alantec.com (Paul Fries)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Cypres -misinformation
Date: 28 Dec 92 23:58:02 GMT

In article <746.2B3CA668@ehsnet.fidonet.org>,  writes:

[text deleted]

> Also, I struggle with the thought
> of our sport becoming sterilized with gadgets that remove the risks, which
> makes Skydiving exciting, & allowing people who dont trust thier abilities
> and equipment into the sport, making it more like a Carnival Ride.  Remove
> the risks, and you remove the excitement, as well as a closeness, & bonding
> of a breed of people who sometimes share the edge with each other.
> Ever try to talk about Skydiving at WUFFO party?   -Pull your own ripcord.

While I admit that the risks/fear help keep me safe, I do not
jump for the excitement of risking my life.

I enjoy the flying...  body or canopy makes little difference to
me.  I am willing to TOLERATE the risks because the flying is so
much fun.  Even if there was no risk, I would still skydive,
wouldn't you?

If it is the risk that excites you, I am sure you can get all
the thrills you need from russian roulette.  Maybe it would be
MORE exciting, as the odds are so much worse.

This will likely NEVER become a riskless hobby.  Trying to
manage the risks serves to help ensure that something really
stupid has a smaller chance of getting you.

Do you think that Tom DESERVED to go in?  Or that having his AAD
save him would have made him less of a skydiver?  I think not.

I want to skydive for a many years to come.  I don't want to
make some foolish error that costs me my life.  But I might make
it.  Or someone else could make it for me.  Either way, I
wouldn't mind a reliable backup for some of these situations.

As for getting more people to experience the sport.  I see that
as a definite advantage of making the sport safer.  Don't worry,
there will always be a core group for whom the comraderie exists.
The new people around the DZ won't usually stick around for more
than a few jumps.  They are not drawn to the flying they way we
are.  They come, they spend, they go away.  They help the DZ owner
pay for the maintenance of the aircraft.  They help defray OUR
costs.  Eventually, their support could help in the legal battles
that never seem to go away.

Later,
Paul Fries
pvf@alantec.com
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org!SKYDIVE (SKYDIVE)
Subject: Re: Taking chances
X-Mailer: mailout v1.24 released
Originator: uucp@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Return-Path: <ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG!SKYDIVE>
To: skydive@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 04:28:32 GMT

Reply-to: Hector.Mandel@p0.f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (Hector Mandel)
Fido-To: ed

7In a msg on <Dec 28 15:29>, Ed of 1:110/68.7 writes:

HM>> I disagree totally with your assertion that risk taking 
HM>> should be the primary motivation for skydiving.  That is not 
HM>> why most of us enjoy the sport.  Fortunately for the sport, 
HM>> the majority of jumpers are interested in MINIMIZING the 
HM>> risks in every aspect.  Our objective in displaying ourselves 
HM>> and our sport to WUFFO's should be to demonstrate that we are 
HM>> NOT a bunch of crazy macho dickhead thrill seekers.  I think
HM>> most skydivers are intelligent human beings who have the 
HM>> ability to weigh risks and benefits and appreciate that 
HM>> skydiving is not about taking chances.
 E>  
 E> Dear Hector, I'm sorry you missed my point altogether.    I agree 
 E> with alot of your reply, in fact almost all of it.  But if you 
 E> DON'T think your in a high risk sport, perhaps you should take 
 E> a reality pill. and by the way, what do you think your 

I do think it is a "high risk" sport; however, the object of the excercise is
to enjoy the sport while doing everything possible to *minimize* the risks.  
Your original post implies that you actually think it detrimental to the 
sport, or somehow not in the spirit of the sport for its participants to want
to eliminate the risks as much as possible.

If you think that I like to skydive *because* I enjoy taking risks, you are 
wrong.  I suspect that most skydivers don't do it in order to take risks 
either.  We do it because it's an exhilarating and wonderful experience and 
also because of the social aspects.  The risk is not what makes it 
exhilarating and wonderful.  There are many "high risk" human activities that 
can be done in a very safe manner.  
For example, driving a car is a high risk activity.  It is safe when you do it
(I think :) ), but quite dangerous if your nine year old son does it.
Similarly, skydiving is risky, but it can be safely done with proper attention
to procedures and equipment.  Skydiving is quite safe when well-trained,
disciplined, intelligent individuals do it.

The sport doesn't need for its participants to go around poo pooing all the 
strict procedures and safety requirements that are being introduced as 
more and more people discover and enjoy the sport.

I don't mean to overreact to your statement but I think it's important to 
clarify this issue, not so much for skydivers, but for those "wuffos" 
lurking out there wondering what makes us tick.  I think it's important to 
point out that we are not all a bunch of daredevils.

--- msgedsq 2.1a
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: A skydiver is taken by the gravity of his situation (1:233/15)
--  
SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Jim Beutel)
Subject: Brand New Canopy
Reply-To: beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola SPS ASIC, Chandler, AZ
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:15:18 GMT

Well this was a Great Christmas. Not only was the snow skiing
superb at Purgatory, I purchased my very own FIRST rig with brand
new P.D. 190 canopy.

Made three jumps at 4500. Hop-n-pops then on up to 9500. EXCELLENT.

Real pretty color scheme. Red, Cobolt, Turquose, Navy, White.

What a kick, no more rentals.....

See you at the New Years Boggie at Marana.

Regards,
Jim

---
-------------------------------------------------------
Jim Beutel	

Motorola SPS ASIC            beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com
1300 N. Alma School Rd       Computer Operations 
M/S CH290  AZ50              office:  (602) 821-4967
Chandler, Arizona 85224	     telefax: (602) 821-4963
-------------------------------------------------------

The Surgeon General has determined that Skydiving is Extremely addicting. 



Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org!SKYDIVE (SKYDIVE)
Subject: Re: Taking chances
X-Mailer: mailout v1.24 released
Originator: uucp@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Return-Path: <ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG!SKYDIVE>
To: skydive@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 04:45:12 GMT

Reply-to: Ric.Schwandt@p0.f113.n128.z1.fidonet.org (Ric Schwandt)
Fido-To: hector mandel

Hey Hector!

In a message to Ed <12/29/92> Hector Mandel Babbled:

HM> In a msg on <Dec 28 15:29>, Ed of 1:110/68.7 writes:

HM> HM>> I disagree totally with your assertion that risk taking
HM> HM>> should be the primary motivation for skydiving.  That is not
HM> HM>> why most of us enjoy the sport.  Fortunately for the sport,
HM> HM>> the majority of jumpers are interested in MINIMIZING the
HM> HM>> risks in every aspect.  Our objective in displaying ourselves
HM> HM>> and our sport to WUFFO's should be to demonstrate that we are
HM> HM>> NOT a bunch of crazy macho dickhead thrill seekers.  I think
HM> HM>> most skydivers are intelligent human beings who have the
HM> HM>> ability to weigh risks and benefits and appreciate that
HM> HM>> skydiving is not about taking chances.

Hector,
 Cut the crap, I enjoyed the sport for the risk taking, low pulled and
 ground rush did it for me.... I'm a very intelligent human being, and
 knew what my limits where... Was a 600 foot pull good for me? several
 times... Would a 600 foot pull be good for you ? Depending where your
 ability and head was at... Was I a thrill seeker? you bet your sweet
 ass I was.... Call me a crazy dickhead thrill seeker.. You bet I was,
 and still am...... I lived for the rush....

                                -=Ric Schwandt=- D-1165, SCS-70


 * WCE 1.1b/2085 * I ke$'T k%iw ghe m`%|$q 0f Qd w)j "io	 N~iSn"...


--- WM v2.06/92-0005
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: Star Factory Systems! [719]-591-5333-9600 v32Bis-(1:128/113)
--  
SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org!SKYDIVE (SKYDIVE)
Subject: Re: Pull time safety
X-Mailer: mailout v1.24 released
Originator: uucp@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Return-Path: <ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG!SKYDIVE>
To: skydive@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 20:34:18 GMT

Reply-to: Ed@p7.f68.n110.z1.fidonet.org (Ed)
Fido-To: romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu!filebank.cts.c

Randy Scott Writes; > I was talking to a guy at the DZ last week about who's at fault in an
> canopy/jumper collision at pull time.  His position was, "the low man
> has the right of way, so it's the high guy's fault".  I say, "O.K.,
> but why did the low guy pull into the high guy's face?"
 
> Actually it's not so simple.  I think it's _very_ difficult to see
> directly above your back at pull time.  About the only people you may
> see aren't a danger to you 'cause they're off to the side.
 
> My experience show's me that who's at fault in a collision depends a
> great deal on who was more experienced, and who lived.  The survivor
> and the more experienced jumper usually end up being judged as
> "in the right".  If the skygod was low man in a collision, the other
> jumper, "tracked through his canopy".  If he was the high man the other
> jumper, "dumped in his face".
 
> Any comments?  How can we define the responsibilities more clearly and
> improve safety during openings?
 
Theres alot of truth in what you say.  -I suppose the only thing that comes
to mind is when faced with a "Right of way" situation in Skydiving, I don't stick around to argue my position. -I would tend to agree with Bobby Magee
(D-371) when he recently said "Watch out for yourself."
 
       Happy New Year!  Hope you all got your traditional jump in today
       (I got two!)       Blue skies for '93      Ed

--- DB 1.51/911243
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: D.E.'s Skydiving Dungeon (1:110/68.7)
--  
SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: horn@tegan.jsc.nasa.gov (Mark Horn)
Subject: Re: s
Organization: NASA Johnson Space Center
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:02:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.224240.9922@nas.nasa.gov> lonhyn@nas.nasa.gov writes:
>I guess people WILL believe anything.
>
>I just heard that everyone who has ever tried freestyle frapped last weekend.
>Is that really true?

Man, it's TRUE!  I've been trying (and trying and trying) freestyle for a long
time.  And I frapped something fierce last weekend.  Man, the mess that they
had to clean up...

...what?  Why are you all looking at me funny?  Did I say something wrong?
WHAT?!

Blue Skies and I hope you all get a jump for Christmas!
--
  _/_/_/  _/_/_/  _/     _/_/_/  _/  _/ _/ _/_/_/ #include <std/disclaimer.h>
   _/    _/ _/  _/ _/   _/ _/   _/ _/  _/ _/      sparkie D-14578
    _/  _/_/   _/_/_/  _/_/    _/_/   _/ _/_/     horn@mickey.jsc.nasa.gov
_/_/_/ _/     _/   _/ _/  _/  _/  _/ _/ _/_/_/    Blue Skies!
From: moret@disuns2.epfl.ch (Pierre Moret)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Eloy net get-together over Xmas/New Year's
Date: 3 Jan 93 23:32:12 GMT
Reply-To: moret@disuns2.epfl.ch (Pierre Moret)
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne


Hi netters!

Sorry, but I'm already back to Switzerland...

I spend two weeks at Eloy over Xmas with our 8-way team. (only training)  We
were the guys jumping with these black helmets. If you were at Eloy too, we
were perhaps in the same bus once or two(?)... 

Jumping there was really great and we hesitate now going at DeLand or Eloy
for our next training in the US (April). There was just one thing that made us
angry about: the crazy landings of many people... The problem was not 
hook-turns themselves, but the final approaches and the landing axes!!!
Everyone wanted to land at the same time at the same place and it seemed that
everyone saw the wind axis differently... Add a few hook-turns into that and
the only thing you can do when you're at the ground is to hope that no
accident will happen.

ok, I just wanted to say it, because I saw two many serious accidents being
caused like this and I think this is one of the stupidest way to die (canopy
well opened and a few seconds before landing!!!).


Happy new year to all of you and soft landings..


--Pierre     moret@di.epfl.ch
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org!SKYDIVE (SKYDIVE)
Subject: Article re Tom Piras
X-Mailer: mailout v1.24 released
Originator: uucp@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Return-Path: <ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG!SKYDIVE>
To: skydive@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:59:30 GMT

Reply-to: Ed@p7.f68.n110.z1.fidonet.org (Ed)
Fido-To: skydive

  (The following is courtesy of the U.S.P.A., copyright 1992.)
Killed on December 13 in Panama was Tom Piras, former world 4-way champion
and co-organizer of several world freefall formation records. While conducting a 4-way training skydive as part of his "Skydive University" program, Piras' feet caught the leading edge of the accidentally deployed canopy of a jumper who had gone low on the formation.
Piras flipped and was stunned when his head struck the other jumper's knee.
He spun away out of control on his back. Several of the jumpers in the group attempted to rescue Piras, including the U.S. serviceman stationed in Panama
who was flying camera.
Piras apparently began to regain consciousness below 1000 feet, rolled over face to earth and pulled his reserve ripcord before striking the ground.According to the report, Piras was wearing a Cypres automatic activation device, but he had not turned it on prior to the skydive. Neither was he wearing a helmet.
Piras had logged over 13,000 jumps since 1974, accumulating more than 168 hours of freefall time. He won his first 4-way national championships with Desert Heat in 1980, and another with Air Bears in 1985, which went on to win the world championships for the U.S. that year.
Pioneering many flying and training techniques, Piras marked the trail for professional freefall formation coaches in both competition and recreation skydiving. He trained the French 4-way team Tag for it's first world championships in 1987 and continued to jump and coach national champions here and abroad until his death at 40.
At presstime, Piras' family planned to bury some of his ashes, and some were to scattered over the field at Skydive Deland, Florida, his home D.Z.
 
Ed.

--- DB 1.51/911243
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: D.E.'s Skydiving Dungeon (1:110/68.7)
--  
SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis)
Subject: Re: Help: hang-gliding info
Organization: University of Virginia Health Sciences Center
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:23:58 GMT

In article <wine-311292132953@sed3.nrl.navy.mil> wine@stress1.nrl.navy.mil (jim ) writes:
}In article <1992Dec30.133940.1274@altair.selu.edu>,
}bhmd1464@altair.selu.edu wrote:
}> 
}> 
}> I am interested in hang-gliding.
}> Does anyone have any info that could help me?
}> Brian Acosta
}
}
}Asking to be told where to go, is not safe in this group; but....
}
}The only place to learn to hang-glide (that I've heard of) is at 
}Nags Head, NC.  They glide off the dunes.  
}
}If you're not local to 
}NC, try calling information in NC, get the number of a hang-gliding
}school there, and ask them where the national group's HQ is.

There is a hang gliding mailing list with over 400 pilots or
interested folks.  The address follows in my .signature...


--
       hang gliding mailing list: hang-gliding-request@virginia.edu 
     Galen Hekhuis  UVa Health Sci Ctr (804)982-1646 gjh@virginia.edu
                  Illiterate?  Write for FREE help...
From: Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: tandem skysurfing
Date: 23 Dec 92 17:40:44 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

Shee, what a concept!  Can you tell us where you saw the photo?  I'd love to
get a copy.
Bobby Magee
D-371
Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: wine@stress1.nrl.navy.mil (jim )
Subject: Re: Help: hang-gliding info
Followup-To: rec.skydiving
Organization: nrl
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:33:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.133940.1274@altair.selu.edu>,
bhmd1464@altair.selu.edu wrote:
> 
> 
> I am interested in hang-gliding.
> Does anyone have any info that could help me?
> Brian Acosta


Asking to be told where to go, is not safe in this group; but....

The only place to learn to hang-glide (that I've heard of) is at 
Nags Head, NC.  They glide off the dunes.  

If you're not local to 
NC, try calling information in NC, get the number of a hang-gliding
school there, and ask them where the national group's HQ is.

Hope that helps.

=================================================
wine@stress1.nrl.navy.mil
B-15788
"Are you ready to skydive?!?..............DOOR!!"
=================================================
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: scrutton@Predator.Ocean.Dal.CA (Jeff Scrutton)
Subject: Adrenalin rush, (was Re: Taking chances)
Keywords: adrenalin, chances
Organization: Oceanography dept,  Dalhousie University
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 04:00:52 GMT

>> wimps, testosterone, crazy, risks, fun, etc...

First the chances.

Every jump has a potential rebound, but what are the odds? I hear 1:60000,
I hear better than the drive to the DZ, etc. Does anyone have good stats?
60000 is like 10 jumps a day for 20 years -- not really something to bother
thinking about on the way out... [this from a guy that loses 90% on coin tosses!]

This thread also brought back some ideas from the summer. I just started
late this summer and was scared shitless on the first three, I had a very
bad self psych before jump four but forced myself anyway knowing it was crap.

Having conquered jump four I then really looking forward to getting out
the door; _no_ adrenalin rush, just a pre-no-Santa Christmas-like anticipation.

The big Z on 18 has me scared shitless again but it also showed me how much
fun 6 degrees of freedom can really be :->

I'd like to know how many of y'all don't get the adrenalin rush? I'm guessing
quite a few just really enjoy the plummet.

Warm blue skies,

-- 
-Jeff scrutton@predator.ocean.dal.ca

	Igloo 3, Oceanography Department, Dalhousie University
	Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, B3H 4J1, (902) 494-3638
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving