HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian President on WWII victims
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:33:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Aug13.093329.14687
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Aug13.050825.16871@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.201046.14676@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>
>>This discussion started with Mr. Loncaric's claims about Croatian 
>>President.
>>
>>I decided to post relevant parts of Pres. Tudjman's book. 
>
>My claims were:
>
>(1) Tudjman HAS stated that Ustashe had perpetrated the crime of the Holocaust.

Yes, and my postings have shown how did he do that.  I hope that others
read them more carefully than you did.  He tries to prove in his book:
-Jews were the one doing the killings ( or deciding who is going to be 
killed) in Jasenovac, Croatia
-They were killed by Ustashas, that's righ,t but only when it was necessary 
to protect other prisoners from their misdeeds.  

How can, any statement made by such a person, Pres. Tudjman, be taken as a
serious one, after what he wrote?

>(2) His book is about man's inhumanity to man through history.

Agreed.  About his humanity also.

>
>Your posting, however incomplete or from whichever sources obtained, 
>confirms what I said.

Indeed?  You find the above to be "statement that Croatia participated in
Holocaust?"  Nice try.  In next posting I will post his writings about 
numbers.

>
>Josip
>
My posting was a complete and it was taken from Tudjman's book.
I challenge you to find where it is incomplete.  Or to admit that 
your Pres., whom 56% of Croats voted for, ( aware or not aware of his 
statements), is just a little bit more educated anti-semite ( Serbs aside,
this time). 

Milan N. Stojanovic
Newsgroups: soc.history,rec.arts.books
From: saroff@uf.msc.edu (Stephen Saroff)
Subject: Re: "The Black Death", by Philip Ziegler
Reply-To: saroff@msc.edu
Organization: AHPCRC, Minnesota Supercomputer Center
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:47:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.151016.10561@acuson.com>, miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:
|> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
|> 
|> >the Black Death that Ziegler brought out, and of which I was not aware:
|> >that the plague actually had some beneficial effects. For some of the
|> >survivors, at any rate, life was better after the plague than before.
|> >Before the plague, resources were scarce; after the depopulation of Europe,
|> >there was more than enough to go around. Thus, the plague indirectly caused
|> >a rise in the European standard of living--which may, in turn, have
|> >contributed to the period of technological advance and expansion that
|> >followed. 
|> 
|> 	I have read that the depopulation affected the working classes
|> 	more than the upper classes resulting in a shortage of manual
|> 	laborers which thus drove up wages.  This resulted in a greater
|> 	economic viability of mechanization of labor-intesive work, thus
|> 	starting the seeds of the industrial revolution.
|> 
|> 	-Michael Goldman


The book to read on the general subject if McNeill's Plauges and People,
or even better, The Rise of the West.


|> 
|> -- 
|> "History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have
|> exhausted all other alternatives." - Abba Eban
|> 	Disclaimer:  All views are solely my own & not the views of Acuson.
|> 	<sun!sono!miklg>  or  [miklg@acuson.com]

-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Stephen Saroff <saroff@msc.edu>                 o o  The Bear who Swims      
Minnesota Supercomputer Center                  (_)_____o      
1200 Washington Ave. S                       ~~~~(______)~~~~~~~~~~
Minneapolis, MN 5514 <612/626-1854>              oo    oo 

Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.nordic
From: slf@netcom.com (Sharon Fisher)
Subject: Re: Vikings (Berserkers, mushrooms,missile weapons)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 01:57:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:

>In article <1992Aug15.200355.8998@news.eng.convex.com>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
>>In article <16iainINNsli@agate.berkeley.edu> tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) writes:
>>....[ about berserkers and 'shrooms]
>>>I would agree with the above, based on my own observations. I've long
>>>been sceptical about the mushroom theory.

>Actually, to give a little balance to the "us & them" mentality, 
>Someone plausibly hypothesized in the 60's (Mr. Leary perhaps?) that
>a middle eastern cult group used to have ceremonies which
>surrounded the eating of bread grown in the area and made a certain
>way such that they would actually achieve contact with the other worldly
>deities.  The cause was ergot, a wheat fungus indigenous to the area,
                                  ^^^^^

Rye, actually.  It's also been postulated that the Salem witch
hysteria was caused by this.


>>I'd like to hear some corroboration of these stories--until I do, I'm going
>>to continue to doubt them. ....

>I've nbever seen this one corrborated either, but if you are going to be 
>paranoid, you might as well startr at the top, and this one provides for 
>all sorts of great speculation...has anybody else heard this, or know its 
>source?

A couple of years ago, I visited Iceland, and got a tour of ...oh, I
don't remember the name, but the place with the trees.  The park that
was supposedly made by a horse hoof.  Anyway, the guide, who was
Icelandic and I believe was a history teacher the rest of the year,
told us the mushroom story.  She also pointed out that the Icelandic
name of that mushroom (the fly agaric) was 'berserker.'  I later
confirmed the name of the mushroom in a natural history museum in
Akeuryi (sorry if I misspelled it).  That doesn't guarantee that it's
not a myth, but if it is, it appears to be a widely believed one.
From: bruce@godzilla.swdc.stratus.com (Bruce Overby)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re:  It's useless!
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:50:45 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

In article <86527@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>Few days, ago I sent a letter of complaint to postmaster of Mutlu's
>server. I have not received any response until today, thus I guess my
>(and others) action was futile. However, what if readers of soc.history
>(and other groups, where his venomous texts can be found) start flooding
>Multu's address with huge (written in binary cod, at best) messages?
>
>It is relatively easy to write a shell program in UNIX , sending mail
>to Mutlu, say every 10 minutes. 
>
>What do you think?
>

Dude, put the following line in your kill file and chill out:

/^From.*Hasan B. Mutlu/h:j

-------------------------------------------------
Bruce Overby
Stratus Computer, Inc.
San Jose, CA


"Get at dem beans!"  -- Hoss Cartwright

My opinions may not reflect those of my employer.
--------------------------------------------------
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
Date: 22 Aug 92 01:05:48 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <1992Aug20.063342.3296@cs.mun.ca>, brian@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Brian Paquet) writes:
>                    Just my opinion, I ain't no PhD.. YET [hey new sig idea!]
> 
> 

Sorry, it's already been done.  Dr Science: He's not really a Doctor,
he's got a master's degree  .....  in science.

          === Al Sparks
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: martem@uio.no (Marte Nolet)
Subject: Re: Can anyone recommend an alternative to Gibbons?
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: Uio, Norway
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:07:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug9.010023.1@fnalb.fnal.gov>, traynor@fnalb.fnal.gov
wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Aug9.022256.12230@tamsun.tamu.edu>, jrp3935@tamsun.tamu.edu (Jonny Ray Purvis) writes:
> > In article <63624@cup.portal.com> mbrown@cup.portal.com (Mark R Brown) writes:
> >>I'm looking for a good general history of Byzantium, but would
> >>like to sidestep Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
> >>for something with a little more "pizazz". Can anone recommend
> >>an alternative? Thanks.
> > 

Im studying history at ground level in Norway and have got something like
the same problem as you, but not with Gibsen. I have partly solved it by
reading Perry Andersson in Danish, but originally he is writing in english.
This book is very much on economical history, historic materialism, and I
know there has been discussions around it. I dont know the english title
but I would guess its called something like From Anique to Feudalism. Its
not on Byzatium in particular.

Marte Nolet
Xref: sparky soc.history:7457 rec.arts.books:14788
From: miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman )
Newsgroups: soc.history,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: "The Black Death", by Philip Ziegler
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:10:16 GMT
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:

>the Black Death that Ziegler brought out, and of which I was not aware:
>that the plague actually had some beneficial effects. For some of the
>survivors, at any rate, life was better after the plague than before.
>Before the plague, resources were scarce; after the depopulation of Europe,
>there was more than enough to go around. Thus, the plague indirectly caused
>a rise in the European standard of living--which may, in turn, have
>contributed to the period of technological advance and expansion that
>followed. 

	I have read that the depopulation affected the working classes
	more than the upper classes resulting in a shortage of manual
	laborers which thus drove up wages.  This resulted in a greater
	economic viability of mechanization of labor-intesive work, thus
	starting the seeds of the industrial revolution.

	-Michael Goldman

-- 
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have
exhausted all other alternatives." - Abba Eban
	Disclaimer:  All views are solely my own & not the views of Acuson.
	<sun!sono!miklg>  or  [miklg@acuson.com]
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:37:33 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Serbian co-operation with Nazis
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Keywords: Eastern-Europe, hate, antisemitism

Dear David and Peter,

In my posting I wasn't denying antisemitism (and other
 ratial tensions) in Eastern Europe. There's no point in mutluing (ie
arguing about known facts to distort the historical truth, BTW
where did you get those 300 years of antisemitism in EE?), however one
could always dispute your conclusions; and they were: it is not
surprising that Serbians slaughter Bosnians, because EASTERN EUROPE
has long tradition of interracial hate , including virulent antisemitism. 

This statement supports an image , prevalent in the US, of the primitive 
east-european nations , with little or no culture (symptomatic was a 
guy ,who asked about contribution of EE-nations to the world heritage), 
constantly killing or hating eachother.

If you read the european history from XIX and XX centuries you'll find 
wars between Germany and France , certainly nationally motivated; 
you'll encounter ethnic tensions in Spain, Ireland, Belgium (between Flamands and Valons{sp?}) etcc. So at the closer look EE doesn't seem to be so that
different, does it? Furthermore if you want to mention antisemitism , do
not forget to say something about beginning of this century in Austria, 
Dreyfuss scandal in France etc.. 

As you can see EE has no special "formula" for violence, no "exclusiveness"
for hate, so if you generalise you'll better be careful and substantiate all
claims.

Sincerely  

Chris.






--

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania | If you can't learn  
Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter | to do it well,
Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                | learn to enjoy doing it badly.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Aug12.094653.1@acad3.alaska.edu> <22828@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>
	<13AUG199207570158@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:49:26

In article <13AUG199207570158@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:

   In article <22828@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>, meyer@tcville.HAC.COM (Mike Meyer) writes...
   >Can anybody here either fill me in or point me to a reference about the
   >origin of the song "Battle Hymn of the Republic?"


   The music for the song is derived from something called "Glory
   Hallelujah", which pre-dates Howe's poem, and the Civil War. 
   The New Grove Dictionary of American Music, in a brief entry,
   has no information about the origin of "Glory Hallelujah." I
   have a special interest in tracking down the origin of the music
   because the tune occurs in Brahms's Piano Concerto #2, and I've
   wondered for a long time whether his use of it was coincidental
   or whether he was quoting it in the same spirit he quoted
   elsewhere in his works material ranging from earlier composers
   to the clock-chiming theme. In rec.music.classical, Roger Lustig
   suggested I write to George Bozarth, a Brahms scholar at the U.
   of Washington. This I did last December, but have not heard from
   him. 

I remember hearing the tune of _Battle Hymn of the Republic_ used
in a French song written by Jacques Brel.  The singer was quite surprised
when I mentioned this, hummed a few bars and said yes.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: soc.history,rec.arts.books
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Subject: Re: "The Black Death", by Philip Ziegler
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 22:00:19 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Aug15.192315.5018@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
>
>I'd always wondered what would have happened if the plague had _not_ swept
>Europe--I had always supposed that having all those scholars and
>administrators killed off must have retarded Europe's advance. Now it seems
>that I had it backwards--the renaissance might not have been possible
>without the Black Death.
>
>What a horrible thought--I can say that the death of nearly half of the
>people in Europe had its good side! How do you balance individual
>suffering against events on a historical scale? 
>

	This sounds like something Hegel would say.

>Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
Xref: sparky soc.history:7201 soc.culture.yugoslavia:7842
From: gadfly@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (Gadfly)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
Summary: Sorry about that.
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:23:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsi.1992Aug14.172358.8047
Organization: AT&T

In article <11756@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
writes:
> We only had the first verse in songbooks when I was in school.
> A few years back, when I was looking for an appropriate title
> for a book*, I had occasion to go find the entire song, and I
> immediately saw why we didn't get the rest of the verses in
> school -- the subsequent verses were subversive and dangerous
> to secular thought, including such dangerous ideas as: "As
> Christ died to make men holy, let us die to make men free."

Shucks, Clayton--you were just born 10+ years too late.  I went to
a New York City public school in the 50's, and we *all* learned
*all* the verses.  I do believe I can still recite it:

In the (hmmm, something about lilies) Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me,
As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
Our God is marching on.

I trust you give partial credit--but not bad for a Yid, eh?  (And you
wonder why schools might be a little bit sensitive about these things
nowadays?)

> Texas variants of the 1960s seem to have had such amusing
> choruses (for kids) as:
> 
>     Glory, glory, hallejuah, teacher hit with a ruler,
>     I knocked her to the floor with a loaded .44,
>     and she ain't comin' back no more.

The PS 130 variant ca. 1954 was a much milder "Bopped her on the bean
with a rotten tangerine..."  But then New York was always the
veritable cradle of civilization.  Hey--you got a problem with that?

               *** ***
Ken Perlow   ***** *****
14 Aug 92   ****** ******   27 Thermidor An CC
            *****   *****   gadfly@ihlpa.ATT.COM
             ** ** ** **
...L'AUDACE!   *** ***   TOUJOURS DE L'AUDACE!  ENCORE DE L'AUDACE!
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: vancleef@netcom.com (Henry van Cleef)
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 01:27:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom--posted from Andover, Mass.

In article <CB.92Aug20124937@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>
>I've been reading the history of indigenous Americans (Indians, native
>Americans; whatever term we should use).  The tragic stage of the Ghost
>Dance and the Wounded Knee massacre is well-known, but I was interested
>to read that a very similar religious movement swept the tribes of the
>then-West (the areas east of the Mississippi) around 1815 when the main
>Indian leader was Tecumseh.  It was the same deal: do this magic dance
>and the whites will disappear and we'll get our land back.  
>
>On a related question, I tried tapping into soc.culture.indian.american,
>and it seems to be inactive.  Is there any interest in the subject?  Any
>Indians on the net?
>

Several of these movements showed up in the 19th century.  One
significant one was the Dreamer beliefs, which were led by one Smohalla,
which were rampant among the Nez Perce.  Deward Walker has published on
the topic (don't have bib. ref. handy, but it is U. of Idaho).  

Soc.culture.indian.american was the subject of a big net.flap last
winter and spring.  It was supposed to be for Asian Indians, and a
second vote on the topic voted it down because of the name confusion.  

-- 
Hank van Cleef---The Union Institute---History of Science and Technology
Unix, X11, networked systems  vancleef@netcom.com, vancleef@tmn.com
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What happened in 1419?
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:58:43 GMT
Distribution: soc.history
Organization: Purdue University

In article <jessica.20@pres.jsc.nasa.gov> jessica@pres.jsc.nasa.gov (Jessica Dickerson) writes:

>  A while ago, someone mentioned that he/she remembered numbers by 
>interpretting them as dates.  Well, I friend of mine has just received
>a phone number which can be used as a (past) date. So...
 
>What happened in 1419?

  Good King Wenceslas died.

>Jessica
>dickerson@medics.jsc.nasa.gov


Larry J
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:29:01 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <22828@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>, meyer@brahma.edsg.hac.com (Mike Meyer) writes:
> Can anybody here either fill me in or point me to a reference about the
> origin of the song "Battle Hymn of the Republic?"
> 
> When was it written?  Did it pre-date the civil war?  Was it written as
> a propaganda song for the war?   Where was it first published or heard?
> 
> Who is this Steffe-Howe person, anyway?
> 
> The song "John Brown's Body" is a variant on the Battle Hymn; which came
> first?  Was the melody already around (like "The Star Spangled Banner") or
> was it composed?
> 
> Mike Meyer

The song "John Brown's Body" was written shortly before the war,
obviously after John Brown was executed by the state of Virginia.
(Hence, the verse, "John Brown's body lies a-moldering in the 
grave.")  It was, not surprisingly, popular with extreme 
abolitionists, since more moderate elements of the North were
not at all pleased with Brown's rash use of force.

During the Civil War, a poem by Julia Ward Howe was fit to the
tune from "John Brown's Body."  "Battle Hymn of the Republic"
has either four, five, or six verses, depending on where you
look, though the sixth verse is not by Howe.

We only had the first verse in songbooks when I was in school.
A few years back, when I was looking for an appropriate title
for a book*, I had occasion to go find the entire song, and I
immediately saw why we didn't get the rest of the verses in
school -- the subsequent verses were subversive and dangerous
to secular thought, including such dangerous ideas as: "As
Christ died to make men holy, let us die to make men free."

*By The Dim and Flaring Lamps: The Civil War Diaries of Samuel McIlvaine
 edited by Clayton E. Cramer

 ISBN: 0-912526-46-7
 published by Library Research Associates, Monroe, NY
 $28.95, hardback

There are amusing variants of "Battle Hymn of the Republic"
sung by schoolchildren throughout the U.S., including such
memorable first verses as:

    Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school,
    We have fired all the teachers and broken every rule.

Texas variants of the 1960s seem to have had such amusing
choruses (for kids) as:

    Glory, glory, hallejuah, teacher hit with a ruler,
    I knocked her to the floor with a loaded .44,
    and she ain't comin' back no more.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
I can make myself popular on USENET again -- all I have to say is that I'm not 
disturbed by the support for North American Man-Boy Love Association in the 
homosexual community.  Being popular at a child's expense isn't worth it.
From: miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman )
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:49:13 GMT
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California


	I heard on National Public Radio's evening news broadcast something
	I had never heard before that might help others as ignorant as I.

	The Serbs, Croatians, and Bosnians are mutually indistinguishable by
	dress, speech, or appearance.  A Muslim Bosnian male who was
	(unusually, I gather) uncircumcised was able to pass as a Serb
	by simply declaring himself to be one.

	Bosnians are Muslims because they are the ones who worked with
	the Ottomans and became Muslim.  Thus they became the urban ruling
	elite, while the Orthodox Serbs, and Catholic Croatians remained
	peasant farmers.  As a result, the majority of the land is owned
	by the Christians, who feel that therefore the area is rightly
	theirs.

	I'm not sure, but I think the Albanians (who are also Muslim) 
	also speak the same language.

	Corrections and elaboration welcome.

	- Michael Goldman

-- 
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have
exhausted all other alternatives." - Abba Eban
	Disclaimer:  All views are solely my own & not the views of Acuson.
	<sun!sono!miklg>  or  [miklg@acuson.com]
From: de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:06:34 GMT
Reply-To: de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan)
Organization: Moscom Corp., Pittsford, NY

In article <1992Aug13.164534.16809@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>    2.	The expulsion of the Jews from Spain effective August 1, 1492
>	resulted in a large migration to Turkey and a smaller one
>	to Romania.

Actually, the expulsion from Spain sent Spanish Jews to many parts of the 
world.  Large numbers went to Turkey, but one must expand this by noting
that they went to the Ottoman Empire, which included North Africa, the 
Middle East, the Balkans, and Greece.  Many of these communities trace
their history from this time.

Many also went to Amsterdam, western Germany, and England.  See the prolific
writings of Rabbi Mark Angel on the subject.
-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -->     David Esan      de@moscom.com  
 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------