HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: devlin@avo.hp.com (Lee Devlin)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Re: why IFR = "real pilot"
Date: 27 Jan 1993 23:41:12 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Wilmington, DE
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpavla.avo.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.5]

G A Venkatesh (venky@thelonious.bellcore.com) wrote:

: Just a small correction Dave. It is not an open season on IFR pilots. It is an
: open season on only those IFR pilots that have declared an open season on VFR 
: pilots.

Well, well, well....  many of you again fell for Dave Touretzky's
feigned sense of IFR snobbery.

He did this to us last year when he made some other off-the-cuff remark
to the effect (paraphrased):  "If a pilot doesn't have the sense of
decency to get an IFR ticket he has no business flying for his
company...etc., etc.,"

If Dave *really* had such an obnoxious attitude about VFR-only pilots,
(who hold 73% of all private certificates) he'd have virtually no pilot
friends at all.  I just think he just likes to start a good flame fest now
and again.  And perhaps he thinks he'll get some of us off our lazy VFR
butts to see what all this IFR stuff is all about.  Who knows...  it may
work.

Lee "lowly VFR-only vermin :-)" Devlin

Lee Devlin              | HP Little Falls Site  | phone: (302) 633-8697 
Piper Colt N4986Z       | 2850 Centerville Rd.  | email:
"Spirit of rec.aviation"| Wilmington, DE 19808  | devlin@lf.hp.com
From: spenny@sw.stratus.com (Steve Pennypacker)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Re: why IFR = "real pilot"
Date: 26 Jan 1993 20:47:50 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wiley.ts.stratus.com

In article <1993Jan26.121831.539@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, hutton@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Edward.Hutton) writes:
> 
> 	I still don't have a first hand perspective on "real" flying vs.
> the airline, but one other humorous story springs to mind. I was relating
> Mike's answer to a pilot who flys for the airlines (he also had a fighter
> back ground). He looked sort of wistful and said, "You know when you taxi
> out to the runway and look up at the heavy iron and think, boy I wish I
> was flying that... More times than not, the heaving iron driver is looking
> down at your little Cessna and thinking, boy I wish I was flying that!"

What he meant was that the bus drivers... uh, I mean airline pilots  :^)
spend all their time going through checklists, with their eyes fixated inside
the cockpit, do everything by the numbers, and have no real room for 
flexibility and having fun.  They're pilots without a doubt, but they're even
more systems managers.  On the other hand, GA pilots fly a lot by feel, 
get to look out the window (that airliner sure isn't going to see *us*!),
and can pretty much do what we want when we want.

I'll bet most airline pilots (at least the ones who don't also fly GA) 
would feel mighty uncomfortable in a Cub ("hey, how do you know what 
direction this thing's going?  WHAT???  You use a *compass*?!?  OK, OK.  How 
do you find out the weather?  And where the heck's the APU, anyway?")  :->
-- 
     Steve Pennypacker		     PP-ASEL

     spenny@wiley.ts.stratus.com     Stephen_Pennypacker@vos.stratus.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc,rec.aviation.piloting
From: schneide@scubed.com (Steve Schneider)
Subject: Southern California Fly-In 1/30/93
Organization: S-CUBED, A Division of Maxwell Labs; San Diego CA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:13:34 GMT


We are still on for Catalina,  meeting there at 12pm on Saturday,
January 30th. As we approach the 30th, if weather at Catalina is 
looking poor, then we can aim for Chino at 12pm as the backup plan.  
(If we do end up at Chino,  Javier Henderson recommends meeting
at Flo's Cafe).  I'll offer my home phone number, (619) 566-3741,  
for people to call to verify plans as the 30th approaches.  

As of 1/21 we have... 
                                                                  Empty
Pilots/Passengers                        Aircraft    ID     Orig  Seats
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Bradfield: dbradfield@dhvx20.csudh.edu C-152    ???     TOA    1?

Jordan Brown:  qdeck!jbrown@uu2.psi.com  ???         ???     SMO   2-3

Mark Erikson:         mark@qualcomm.com  172RG       4844V   MYF    0
  Eric Varsanyi:        ewv@craycos.com    
  Rick Sabourin:       rws@cs.brown.edu   
  Bruce Tobak:       btoback@netcom.com 

Len Fishler:     fishler_len@tandem.com  Centurion   3784Y   RHV    3

Javier Henderson:     jav@crash.cts.com  Cessna      67821   CCB    0

Steve Schneider:    schneide@scubed.com  Cherokee    8883N SEE&MYF  0 
  William LeFebvre: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu
  Kandi Kirk:            kk@ccrwest.org 
  Veronica Kirk:     c/o kk@ccrwest.org 

Ron Schnell:       ronnie@media.mit.edu  Mooney 252  252FA   VNY    1
  Greg Rose:            ggr@acci.com.au    

Passenger Wanna-be's: 
   None on the list at the moment.


Send additions to schneide@scubed.com and I'll post an updated list.

Pilots should remember that there is a landing fee at Catalina ($4 or $5
the last time I was there).  They also did not sell fuel at Catalina, and
I don't think that situation has changed recently.  So that we don't
hang around waiting for no-shows and wondering if they in trouble, please 
leave a message on my answering machine if you decide at the last minute
not to make the flight on the 30th.

Passengers should check with pilots about sharing flight expenses.

__________________________________________________________________________
Stephen Schneider                 S-CUBED              3398 Carmel Mtn Rd.
schneide@scubed.com           (619) 587-7295           San Diego, CA 92121
From: dtk@kepler.unh.edu (David T Kao)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: *** Megafortress ***
Date: 26 Jan 1993 22:15:19 GMT
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: kepler.unh.edu

I posted the following message in rec.games.misc a few days ago, but
no one ever responded. So here it goes....

What should I do after I escape from the Dreamland in the "Flight of the
Old Dog"? It seems that I need to read the book by Dale Brown in order
to proceed further from Seattle. I was intercepted and asked to read
page 240 (of the Dale Brown's book).

I did go out and bought the book. However, it did not help at all. Can
somebody tell me what to do from Seattle? Thanks in advance.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
David T. Kao       dtk@cs.unh.edu  | This space is available for
                   (603) 659-2737  |           rent.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: short-haul .vs. long-haul definition
Followup-To: sci.aeronautics.airliners
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:00:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.233812.16592@eos.arc.nasa.gov> greg@eos.arc.nasa.gov
(Greg Pisanich) asks about definitions for "short-haul" and "long-haul"
aircraft.

This discussion belongs in sci.aeronautics.airliners.

							Geoff
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: jont@harlqn.co.uk (Jon Thackray)
Subject: Re: more on business flying
Organization: Harlequin Limited, Cambridge, England
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:02:34 GMT

In article <4037@isgtec.isgtec.com> rod@isgtec.com (Rod Gilchrist) writes:

   Beech recently lost a case in which what sounded like a departure stall and
   crash killed four people. The settlement (after 10 years in court) amounted
   to $15 million per person killed (why were they sueing Beech anyway? yeah
   I know sue the guy with the money...).

   You would be unlikely to see that kind of settlement in _any_ automobile
   crash. The American legal system is nuts when airplanes are involved and the
   flailing insanity has some probability of dragging the employer in.

I'm not sure this is true. Ford sometime in the last ten years lost a
very large case involving the placement of petrol tanks in their cars
and the probability of a shunt type accident resulting in a fireball.
They had produced internal calculations showing that the likely cost
of being sued should such an accident occur were outweighed by the
cost of the necessary redesign to make the car safer. The accident did
occur, and the courts made them pay for that type of decision. Can't
quote exact figures here, maybe someone else can.
--

Jon Thackray                    jont@uk.co.harlqn       44 223 872522 (voice)
Harlequin Ltd.                  jgt1@uk.ac.cam.phx      44 223 872519 (fax)
Barrington Hall
Barrington
Cambridge CB2 5RG
England
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre)
Subject: Notam: "MU OTS" ???
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:16:01 GMT

I've seen this notam for about two weeks now, and I have no idea 
what it means.

!CGX 01/005 CGX MU OTS


What's an MU?  Neither DUAT service was able to translate it for me.
CGX has no instrument approaches, so I doubt that it is any sort of
navaid.

I hope this isn't too painfully obvious, or I'm going to look very
silly.

		William LeFebvre
		Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst
		Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
		Northwestern University
		<phil@eecs.nwu.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: ronnie@media.mit.edu (Ron Schnell)
Subject: Re: In the "System"
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:53:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.163239.17480@ncar.ucar.edu> elmore@rap.ucar.edu (Kim Elmore) writes:
>
>	I do stand corrected on the point of precision: flight in IMC
>demands far more precision than typical VMC flight.  But, we all land

Flying "in the system" demands far more precision, not just flying
in IMC.  Most of my IFR flights are in VMC, and they aren't any
different from the IMC flights, except that my eyes are open a little
wider during IMC.  Just because the weather is nicer doesn't mean that
the consequences are any different when you bust a clearance.  Even
with 100 miles visibility you often can't see another plane from certain
angles.  

#Ron
(ronnie@media.mit.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: erik@tera.com (Erik Hedberg)
Subject: Re: Fishy PIREP
Keywords: mackerel sky
Organization: Tera Computer Company, Seattle, WA
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:02:03 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.172957.10572@crash> jav@crash.cts.com (Javier Henderson) writes:
>I just got my DUAT wx briefing for a flight later today, and the following
>PIREP showed up:
>
>Camarillo CA [CMA]: pilot report at Camarillo CA (CMA VOR) at 4:21 PST
>    (0021Z), at 4,500 feet a Piper Aircraft Coorp. Cherokee Six, Lance,
>    reported temperature 16C, smooth turbulence ... MACKERAL sky
>                                                    ^^^^^^^^
>
>That's exactly how DUAT translated the briefing. So...what exactly is a
>Mackeral sky? And should I carry a fishnet along?
>
>(I think the fish is spelled Mackarel though...si?)

From The Random House College Dictionary (1975 edition (has it really
been that long?!)):

mack'erel sky', 1. a sky spotted with small, white, fleecy clouds.  2.
an extensive group of cirrocumulus or altocumulus clouds.

BTW, the fish is:

mackerel, n., pl. 1. a swift food fish, Scomber scombrus, found in the
North Atlantic, having wavy cross markings on the back.

Erik
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: linden@adcalc.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: FLORIDA FLY IN?
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 07:59:09 GMT

>>
>>I'm a student here at Florida Tech, and haven't been to a fly in since
>>I left California... do we not have them in Florida or what?
>>
> 
> EAA's SUN & FUN in Lakeland, FL ....... the biggest fly-in south of Oshkosh.
> 
> I'm not sure of the date .. my latest copy of Sport Aviation is sitting back 



Week of April 18
From: amm@NeXT.COM (Alan M. Marcum)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Taking My Son Flying
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:43:12 GMT
Reply-To: amm@NeXT.COM (Alan M. Marcum)

Finally, at long last, I took my son flying.  And it was wonderful.

Joshua's 2 1/2 years old, and loves to pretend to fly.  He has a
small plastic car dashboard that he places over his lap; it has
a steering wheel and gearshift lever, and an "instrument panel."  Well,
sometimes it's a car, but it's frequently an airplane.  Moreover,
one day he moved this thing into a corner between a couch and
the wall and the newspaper bin and made himself an airplane.
He sat in his "plane" for around a half hour (at about 2 years of
age!) making airplane noises.

He loves a series of books about Budgie, a little helicopter.

Josh has enjoyed sitting in planes I've been pre-flighting
(supervised by a friend who's a pilot or by my wife, Barb,
who, though not a pilot, has taken both ground- and airborne-
based pinch hitter (tm) training), playing and looking around.

And, we've been on a few trips aboard airliners, which he's
enjoyed, and on which he's been very well behaved.

So, why'd I wait so long?  My wife's afraid of flying.  Though
she goes with me, she doesn't like it.

Well, we finally got to the point that she admitted that, indeed,
I *would* be taking Josh flying one day.  And she admitted that,
even if someone else went with us, she didn't want to miss being
in the plane, too.

Then, this past weekend came, and the days were sunny.  This comes
after this part of the world has seen weeks of rain and clouds.
(We need the water, so I'm certainly glad for it, but it sure was
nice to see blue sky and feel warm sunshine and calm winds!)  And
I said we should take Josh flying.  There were neither forecasts
nor reports of turbulence, the Club had a plane available, so...

On Sunday, the 24th, Josh went for his first light plane ride.
Mooney 5783D.  We took off from Palo Alto, flew across the Bay,
did a nice, gentle turn to the left and then a 180 back to the
right.  Palo Alto uses right traffic, and Josh was on the right
side of the plane (his choice), so his wing was down for 'most
every turn.  And, because of the East-West Shrine Game at Stanford
Stadium, three blimps were in the air (which is why we crossed the
Bay instead of heading out over Stanford).

We plugged in the intercom, and Josh had his headset on.  He showed
no inclination to remove it.  I looked back at him (he was in the
back, next to Barb), briefly, twice; both times he had a big, big
smile on his face.

This morning:

	Me:	"Josh, what'd you do yesterday morning?"
	Josh:	"I went flying!"
	Me:	"Who was the pilot?"
	Josh:	"Daddy!  And Mommy was the co-pilot.  And I was
		the co-pilot."
	Me:	"What airplane did we take?"
	Josh:	"A Mooney airplane!"

Ah, it was SO sweet!
--
Alan M. Marcum
NeXT Tech Support
amm@NeXT.COM
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: ginsberg@t.Stanford.EDU (Matthew L. Ginsberg)
Subject: Re: Palo Alto: Blimp capital of the U.S.? :-)
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 05:41:03 GMT

In article <77468@apple.apple.COM> winter@Apple.COM (Patty Winter) writes:
>
>Where did all those blimps [around Palo Alto] come from??! 

The blimps were (I think) Goodyear, the family channel, and the
blimp that is currently for sale at Hayward.  I've heard you
can get a demo flight as a prospective buyer for $50, or you
can rent it for $700/hour.  (I have no idea if that's accurate.)
I did see it on the ground last time I flew into Hayward -- quite
a weird looking beast!

Goodyear was in the middle of the bay when I went out for a general
poke around yesterday; it turned out they were talking to San Carlos
and didn't mind if I flew over and had a look.  They're really big,
and really slow!  Getting a look from the air was a lot of fun.

						Matt Ginsberg

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh)
Subject: Re: why IFR = "real pilot"
Reply-To: venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh)
Organization: Bellcore, Morristown NJ
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 21:13:58 GMT

In article <1k6q1lINNnlh@hp-col.col.hp.com> davea@col.hp.com (Dave Allen) writes:
>Whew. It doesn't seem to take much to declare open season on IFR pilots.

Just a small correction Dave. It is not an open season on IFR pilots. It is an
open season on only those IFR pilots that have declared an open season on VFR 
pilots.

Looks like you didn't understand my reference to religion at all. IFR rating
is not silly. No one has said this but rather most agree on the utility
value of the rating. But *IFR rating as a religion* is quite a different thing
altogether. That religion teaches one to think very narrowly in terms of its
own tenets. Even worse, that religion teaches one that *it* is the best thing
for everyone and that one should actively promote it amongst the non-believers
regardless of what they have chosen. And that, Dave, is what *some* IFR pilots 
are doing and it is quite silly.

>>Why do pilots have to look down on other pilots who don't do the same type of 
>>flying that they do?  ...But when pilots talk down about other groups of
>>pilots, I don't blame the public for being afraid of us.
>
>Unfortunately most of your article was contrary to your own advice...

Steve wasn't talking down to IFR pilots as a group. He was admonishing those 
that were talking down to a group of pilots. See the difference?

>He didn't say IFR pilots are "better", but a lot of folks went non-linear.

Hmmm... a marked difference in perception. If you think D.T doesn't feel
that playing with the big boys is superior to just getting your jollies
otherwise, you must be reading different posts than I am.

>flying experiences have been thanks to my cloud-punching ticket. All flying
>is wonderful, and we do well to appreciate all the ways we do it and all the
>skills we derive satisfaction from. If nothing else, an IFR ticket just lets
>you do more of it.
>
I agree with you completely on that one. There are wonderful reasons for one
to get an IFR rating and there are equally valid reasons why one may not need
it or may not be in a position to get it. But what motivates one to either
look down on the lack of such a rating or to goad strangers into getting one.
IFR isn't a religion or is it?

venky
From: ritter@claude.ma30.bull.com (Roger Ritter)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Re: why IFR = "real pilot"
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:40:05 GMT
Organization: Bull HN Informations Systems Inc.

spenny@sw.stratus.com (Steve Pennypacker) writes:

>I'll bet most airline pilots (at least the ones who don't also fly GA) 
>would feel mighty uncomfortable in a Cub ("hey, how do you know what 
>direction this thing's going?  WHAT???  You use a *compass*?!?  OK, OK.  How 
>do you find out the weather?  And where the heck's the APU, anyway?")  :->

Not to mention:  "Flare.  Flare!  FLARE!!!!  Oh.  The cockpit's that
close to the ground, huh?"  It's interesting listening to a C-5 pilot
describe his first attempt to land a GA airplane after spending a couple
of years in the heavy iron.  It's even more interesting listening to his
instructor ("He flared *fifty* feet in the air!  He tried to kill me!!).

It's also neat listening to a former C-5 check pilot describe a new
C-5 pilot's first landing approaches:  
Student lines up on left edge of 300-foot wide runway.  Instructor asks
"Why are we lined up over here?".  "Well, this is a wide-body aircraft,
so I'm leaving room on the right."  "How far apart are our seats?"
"About three feet."  "And where's the centerline of the aircraft?"
"Oh.  I guess I'd better move over a bit."
-- 
Roger Ritter N1FZZ (R.Ritter@ma30.bull.com) PP-ASEL, AGI
1946 Luscombe 8A N71983 "Rocky"
Sheep do not so much fly as plummet!        NH CAP: Profile 49
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: hutton@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Edward.Hutton)
Subject: Re: why IFR = "real pilot"
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 17:18:31 GMT

In article <1k20e4INN44d@transfer.stratus.com> spenny@sw.stratus.com (Steve Pennypacker) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>I have no problem with the term "in the system".  As a VFR pilot, I'll
>use that term myself for IFR stuff.  It's appropriate, and there's not a 
>single reason why any VFR pilot should feel insulted by being "left out" of 
>the system.  It's just a way of talking about IFR stuff.  At the same time, 
>I'm not so insecure that I need to compare myself with "the big boys" to 
>decide how good a pilot I am, and I have no need to pretend I'm one of them.
>Hell, if I used that analogy for driving I'd feel pretty insecure as a 
>driver until I got hired as a bus driver.  But I'm not. 
>
>Dave, if you want to say that IFR pilots have more priveleges than VFR
>pilots, fine.  If you want to say that they have more skills (in general),
>OK.  I'll agree with that.  But don't waste our time telling us that we're
>lesser pilots because we can't "play with the big boys".

	Talk about the differences in perceptions... Let me relate a
short story involving my flight instructor, a retired fighter pilot,
who most definitely has an ego. He also has more raw piloting ability than
anyone else I have flown with. He enjoys acro, has taught acro, and used
to fly sailplanes in competition. Enough set up...

	I had only know Mike a short while. He hadn't said alot about
his experiences in the Air Force. I was slowly figuring out that he had
thousands of hours, much of it in high perfermance jets. When I had learned
a little more about him, I innocently asked one day, "Mike, why don't you
get a job with the airlines?" The answer surprised me. He said, "What?!
Fly a garbage truck?! A transport pilot?! I'm a real pilot! I don't fly that
kind of *&&%$." The answer was a lot more vehement than I expected. He was
serious. I asked him, "Well if you feel that way, why do you fly small
planes?" I didn't understand his answer, he said simply, "This is *REAL*
flying."

	I still don't have a first hand perspective on "real" flying vs.
the airline, but one other humorous story springs to mind. I was relating
Mike's answer to a pilot who flys for the airlines (he also had a fighter
back ground). He looked sort of wistful and said, "You know when you taxi
out to the runway and look up at the heavy iron and think, boy I wish I
was flying that... More times than not, the heaving iron driver is looking
down at your little Cessna and thinking, boy I wish I was flying that!"

Ed 

-- 
edward.hutton@ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Ed Hutton)