From: bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: My Problems with GURPS
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:36:51 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1993Jan22.190708.16065@Princeton.EDU> mfterman@flower.Princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire) writes:
>1. There are only four attributes, and sometimes the distinction
>between Strength and Health can get extremely confusing.

Not really.  Health determines how you deal with damage, disease,
how fast you heal, etc.  Strength deals with physical exertion,
stamina...

>Yes, yes, I know that if you add in a lot of the advantages and
>disadvantages, you have a larger set of attributes, but a lot
>of attributes that are directly calculated from these stats should
>be separated out, like fatigue and hit points. Additionally, this

Are you saying that you're unable to do this yourself?  Not a very
valid complaint.  There's no specific space because hit points and
extra fatigue are only introduced in certain very specific genres.
Generally-speaking, HP=HT and Fatigue=ST in almost all games unless
you're running with your own house rules or you're playing with
supers.

>disconnection between Health and fatigue points is really odd to
>my mind, and doesn't make a lot of sense.

Very simple.  I don't exercise, I eat a lot of junk food, but I
haven't been very sick in years.  My health stat might be high, but
that doesn't mean that I can run 10 miles.

Strength deals with all forms of physical exertion (running is an
exception for some reason.  I've always accepted it, but I don't
really see any reason to get "confused") while health tends to deal
with just that -- how healthy are you?  I've known people who ARE
strong, but succumb easily to sickness and heal slowly.

I honestly don't find the disconnection odd.  Being healthy is NOT
equal to having a ton of stamina.  They're very separate and should
be kept that way.

>2. For all of its being generic, it loves to invent a lot of
>specific cases, rather than coming up with a generic framework
>for creating any instance of a given class.

It's impossible to deal with all cases generically.  Try it out, I
know that I have.  You HAVE to deal with specific cases with
specific rules sometimes.  Try running a cinematic campaign without
the cinematic rules...

If you want a generic framework, they're available for many cases.
And GURPS tends to be fairly consistent among its advantages and
disads so that I have no problem with them.

>HERO has a system for creating any Psych Lim or Physical Lim.

GURPS has the problem of being overly specific or too generic when
it came to designing the system.  I think that the designers found a
nice, comfortable middle ground that's quite acceptable.  I've
rarely had a case where some "psych lim" or "physical lim" was so
obscure that either I couldn't stick it under one of the available
headings or I couldn't develop a point worth for it.

>Additionally, the strength of a disadvantage can be freely tailored
>to a given genre depending on how debilitating it is in that
>campaign. Illiteracy is a lot less of a disadvantage, if any in
>a fantasy campaign.

I find this preferable to making illiteracy worth the same no matter
what.  In a game where writing hasn't even been invented, why should
everyone be automatically literate?  It depends very much on SOCIETY
and that's why its point cost changes.  GURPS attempts to deal with
averages.  Doesn't always succeed, but I prefer the results.

>Additionally, for all its claims to be all things to all people,
>it has a rather limited magic system. HERO system is more complex,
>on the other hand you can create any sort of magic system you want,
>to give the campaign the right sort of feel.

Hero's magic system is damned ugly.  GURPS presents a handful of
magic systems as a guideline (rune, general GURPS magic, and
improvisational magic), and there's nothing there that says you
can't make your own.

Do I prefer GURPS Magic?  Not exactly, but that's why I've got my
own in the works...

>3. GURPS has claims of realism through its point value system,
>though it seems rather arbitrary in point cost values.

Explain.  I find that the illiteracy cost is very realistic.  Many
things are based on either the difficulty required to gain the
ability (especially for skills), or the potential worth if such a
difficulty can't be determined (allies, patrons, etc).

As always, if you have problems with a system, go ahead and change
it.  Nothing in GURPS says that you have to stick with the rules
presented...

>This point has been hashed out elsewhere. While making some skills
>more costly to advance in does make sense, as does the idea of
>increasing cost at higher levels, the base skill costs seem a bit
>odd to me. Additionally the costs of advantages and disadvantages
>seems more oriented towards point balance than realism. Point
>balance and frequency of traits in real life are quite different
>in terms of cost.

How do you turn patrons "realistic"?  Contacts?  Cybernetics?  They
have a worth, but you can't say, "Well, it's X difficult to gain a
patron in all cases, so it's worth X points."

Advantages and disadvantages are considerably different from skills.
Or am I the only person on this planet who feels that way?  Advs and
disads can't always be gained during play.  You can't just pick up
Acute Hearing and Danger Sense while traipsing through the forest.
Enemies can be gained and lost.  A leg can be lost in an accident as
easily as a bad guy can cut it off...how should I determine such an
accident "realistically"?

>There are other little things, like hit points in a system that
>works on realism, and so forth, but that's my main complaint. I've

I've tried "wounding" systems.  They're cute, but they don't work.

>nevered considered running a campaign in GURPS, though I might
>play in someone else's, because I feel that there are much better
>mechanics out there. I do collect interesting sourcebooks for
>ideas for the most part.

I've heard the examples of the better systems.  HERO, Living Steel
(and the combat system its derived from), Shadowrun, CP2020, etc.  I
don't think so.  For you, they might work.  For me, they work even
worse.  Give me a system that gives me the incredible flexibility of
GURPS for multiple genres and a freedom to alter the rules until
they work for me and I'll switch immediately.

So far, I haven't found a thing and I've been looking.

>-- 
>    Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Mean Ol' Top, Priest of Shub-Internet
>    Disclaimer: Nobody else takes me seriously, why should you be the first?
>mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu mfterman@pucc.bitnet terman@pupgga.princeton.edu
>"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"