From: rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: -=[ Curtin University ]=-  Perth, Australia.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:51:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.093001.22614@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>,
eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:

> In article <2797@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU>
> stong@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Simon Tong) writes:

>> I can't understand why is the Australian Government so afraid of
>> taking a stand on 

> Because they are more clever than you are.

That wouldn't happen to be a threat?

>> this issue ?  It has been almost two weeks since the children's
>> disappearance.  They could be anywhere in the world.

> They are already in Malaysia, safe and happy.

[fx: extra special sardonic and condescending speech]
And how would you know they are happy, or safe?  I doubt it.

>> I can't understand why should the Malaysian court ruling have any bearing,

> They children are Malaysian citizens.  Even in many countries, citizenship is
> decided by the Father's citizenship, not the mother's.

Wrong.  Try again.  They are Australian citizens, and of dual nationality.
They were born in this nation which is the determinant on citizenship.  At
birth, the parents can decide whether to change the citizenship of the
child under certain circumstances (e.g. when the child is born on holiday
in Iceland, maybe!  Usually when the citizenship is not the same as either
parent.)

> Australia must respect the sovereignty of the Malaysian government

While in Australia, no one has to respect the laws of the Malaysian Govt.
Believe it or not, we obey our own laws thank you very much!
[Shock, horror!]

> and its citizens.

[flame on]

Well.  We may respect you as other humans, but not as arrogant egotistical
pigs.  I know you are not the stereotypical Malaysian, and I know thousands
better than you.  You are the odd one in the bunch to blurt such utter
jingoistic crap about Malaysia and it's laws and how Australians should be
subservient to those laws.

[flame off]

> Rule of justice should prevail. Not biased and inconsistent rulings.

Australian justice has been mocked by the prince.  He says Australian laws
should not apply to himself while in Australia, nor his children while in
Australia (and who are Australian citizens).

Would it be improper for me to say that I can break your laws in your country,
because I am not a resident of your country?

Graphic Example:  I am on trial for drug trafficking in an ASEAN nation (not
Malaysia) which has a mandatory death sentence for convicted criminals.  o
I say, "Sorry, your laws don't apply to me"?

>> the children are Aust. citizens living in Australia and the natural father
>> has agreed to the Aust. court's decision.

> How could you say that.

Quite easily.  It is a fact.

> If he had agreed, he would not have taken the children out of Australia,
> would he?

Agreements can be broken, as the prince did.

> What logic you use. 

"Logical" logic.

> What proff have you got that they are indeed Australian citizens, when
> their father may not be.

Because they are Australian-born children.  The issue of the father's citizen-
ship does not enter the matter.  Where you are born determines your citizen-
ship.

> Does Australian immigration law provides automatic citizenship to
> children whose father is not a citizen?

Wrong.  You are confusing "nationality" with "citizenship".  Citizenship can
usually only be of one nation, and only of one nation at birth.  In this
case, the children are Australian citizens.

Citizenship can only be changed by applying for citizenship in another
country.  Usually, if you become a citizen of another nation, your citizen-
ship changes to that nation, and your citizenship of the prior nation
*usually* ceases.

In Australia, you lose your citizenship if you gain citizenship of another
country.  That is, if you become a Malaysian citizen you lose your Australian
citizenship.  However, if you did not realise that you would lose your
Australian citizenship, you can apply to gain it again.

Nationality is passed from parents.  The children most certainly have dual
nationality, but that is not relevant in this situation.

I know, as I have dual nationality (from my parents) and citizenship of
Australia.

>A lot of countries do not, even when their mother are citizen.

As I said, it is the nation of birth, not the nationality of the parents.

I would hate to be a South African citizen, even though I was born in Aust-
ralia!

Rod
-- 
  *******     *******     *******   |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 *       *   *       *   *       *  | The Games of the XXVth Olympiad |
*         * *         * *         * | Barcelona   July 25 to August 9 |
*       *******     *******       * |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 *     * *   * *   * *   * *     *             23 hours to go!
  *******     *******     *******   |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
      *         * *         *       |    RSwiftRW@cc.Curtin.edu.au    |
       *       *   *       *        | Rod Swift     Curtin University |
        *******     *******         |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian