HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Why alt.folklore.computers should stay in alt (was: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore)
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:45:14 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <1992Nov5.000856.15656@pollux.lu.se> magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson) writes:
>(Please note cross-posting and Followup-to)
>
>In article <1992Nov4.174323.4347@u.washington.edu> starfish@stein.u.washington.edu 
>(Sarah Skovronsky) writes:
>
>So, why are people so afraid to move from alt? I think it's because
>they're afraid to destroy something fine.  Since a.f.c seems to be

An understandable fear, but perhaps unjustified.

>a) New participants

certainly

>b) A new name

by definition	:)

>c) Possibly a new charter, and certainly a new *interpretation* of
>   what the group's about.

why?

>The dangers of a) are obvious.  Hopefully, the new readers will lurk
>for a while, and then catch the feeling, but it's not certain.  The
>character of the Usenet oracle changed rather much when
>alt.humor.oracle was moved to rec.humor.oracle. 

good point.

>Misc.folklore.computers, Talk.folklore.computers: Here, people would
>probably be more tolerant, but the group name would still be
>*strongly* misleading.  And the mainstream Usenet is *much* more fussy
>about misleading group names than is alt. 

how is talk.folklore.computers more misleading (you even emphasize
"*strongly* misleading" than the current alt.folklore.computers?
I think it fits the best of the possibilities, and also fits what
you currently describe as occurring in the current a.f.c... 

>Soc.culture.hackers

not really, from what you describe.  I would guess a group with 
this name would be discussions of hacking techniques and anecdotes.
(probably in both the old and new senses of the word "hack", although we
would certainly want to discourage those posts in the new sense...)

>Is it really broken, since so many people seem to want to fix it?

It is not really broken, as much as it seems, by traffic, to deserve
a place in the "real" heirarchy.  Consider it a promotion... :)

>I don't think so.  A.f.c has a very high readership for altnet.
>Granted, some fascist newsadmins refuse to touch altnet with a
>ten-foot pole.  Perhaps they believe that autobogitification is

This, on the other hand, is NOT a legitimate reason (IMHO) for
moving the group.  That is an internal political matter at each
site...

>Note: Before anybody digs out old, "incriminating" archive entries
>from the discussion of comp.society.folklore last year: I admit that I
>did support (and vociferously defend) the creation of c.s.f.  But that
>was with the original (and still valid) charter that made c.s.f an
>_alternative_ to, not a replacement for alt.folklore.computers. 

An interesting proposition, if a high percentage were crossposted
from the original group, perhaps you could sort of clone the atmosphere...



		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"There are no problems, only opportunities!"
"What we have here is an insurmountable opportunity..."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 02:27:23 GMT

rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>By who's standards is this stuff "Important"? Are you implying that 
>>everyone's standards of importance are the same?
>Sigh.  As I've patiently explained to you before, I never imply.  It's
>a bad habit that leads to misunderstandings.  Please do me the courtesy
>of allowing me to speak for myself instead of guessing what I might
>mean, as in "Are you implying...?".

I apologize. Delete the last sentence. 

>I think "important" is an entirely relative term: but, for example,
>I consider the documents in news.announce.newusers of critical
>importance to every Usenet user.  

Have you asked a random usenet user what they think is of critical
importance? Is it possible that they might not have the same view?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

With a jar on his back, a blind man walked at night, holding a lamp. A
passer-by said: "What ignorance. Day and night is the same for you and
you're carrying a lamp in the dark!"
  
"The light is for blind people like you so that they won't knock against 
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 17:23:46 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>And think you that there's been no serious damage already? Do you guys
>even CARE about how many people you alienate with your damn inflexibility?

What harm? The name rec.music.synth is not some godgiven constant, any
piece of software that can operate with the name rec.music.synth can
also deal with rec.music.makers.synth with a trivial change. 

All harm that has been done is to force some people to subscribe to
a new group. No big deal.

-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   |
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: One more forwarded old article pertinent to rec.music.makers.*
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:14:37 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

This article was posted after the first CFV: I had originally suggested
creating these groups at the top level of rec.music, i.e. rec.music.guitar.
(I'd also suggested changing "synth" to "keyboards" or "keys" -- a move
which later discussion convinced me was probably not a good idea.)
Several folks suggested an alternate approach to the musician's hierarchy;
this article was a followup to one of those suggestions. 

| From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
| Newsgroups: news.groups
| Subject: Re: RFD: several instrument-specific rec.music groups
| Message-ID: <1992Aug20.204016.2022@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
| Date: 20 Aug 92 20:40:16 GMT
| References: <Bt7pr0.3G7@uunet.uu.net> <14159@auspex-gw.auspex.com>
| Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
| Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
| Lines: 20
| 
| johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
| >If you continue to pursue this I'd recommend a slight change.  Rather than
| >put these groups directly under the rec.music hierarchy, put them under
| >rec.music.makers and then move rec.music.synth there as well.
| 
| Agreed! I second this...as it makes much more sense. In fact:
| 
| rec.music.makers.guitar
| rec.music.makers.bass	(not just electric players but string bass too)
| rec.music.makers.keys
| rec.music.makers.percussion
| rec.music.makers.wind
| 
| ...etc...
| 
| [ signature deleted by Rsk to save space ] 

I have to say that I'm pretty confused at this point; if putting newsgroups
for guitarists, bassists, et.al. under rec.music.makers makes sense, then
why would it not make sense for synthesists?

---Rsk
From: Nicolai.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov  5 1992
Date: 05 Nov 92  18:12:40

Joshua Randall wrote:

 JR>FLAME ON

 JR>FidoNet is realtively small.  UseNet is huge.

FidoNet is made up of something over 19,000 BBSs, virtually all of
which are privately funded (we do this out of our own
pocket, kiddo).  Last I heard, Usenet had something over 80,000 nodes,
so it is significantly larger.  But not all THAT
much larger...and FidoNet is growing like a weed...

 JR>FidoNet is a like a happy family.  UseNet is (to steal a .sig) 
 JR>like
 JR>the Klingon High Command:  brutal, and fill with phsychotic 
 JR>people
 JR>like *me* who will FLAME FLAME FLAME until we get our point 
 JR>across.

FidoNet is also sometimes known as "Fight-o-Net".  No, it is not
a "happy family", unless your idea of a happy family is Jack the
Ripper's.

The typical FidoNet sysop (at least locally) is somewhat past
college age.  And is somewhat more likely to deal with irritants
in a more direct and effective fashion than flaming, although
there is certainly enough of that as well.

==========================================
=Nicolai.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org=
==========================================
 

--- msged 2.06
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: rec.music.synth (again)
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:46:55 GMT

In article <BxJoLo.HzF@news.orst.edu> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John  
Stanley) writes:
> In article <2940003@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> bparrish@hpcc01.corp.hp.com  
(William Parrish) writes:
> >
> >(1) One person said that if a CFV appears in this group, that it  
affects
> >this group... not so... there are also a couple of CFVs in the  
non-expired
> >stuff that is for REC.MUSIC.REGGAE (I think that's spelled right).
> 
> Gosh, I guess synthesizer users don't ever play reggae music, eh? None
> of them are interested in it. Or maybe some are? Wouldn't you think that
> maybe those readers of r.m.s who play reggae music with their synths
> might just be interested in r.m.r? Adding a group to talk about that
> topic certainly would affect many of the readers of r.m.s.
> 
Again - your argument supports the fact that articles can be cross-posted  
for information reasons. A cross-posting doesn't MEAN that the group it is  
in will be severely affected (i.e. go away or be renamed).

> I don't know, but if _I_ see a list of groups that are being voted on,
> and they all deal with instruments, I would read to the end of the list
> to see if the instrument _I_ played was on that list. At least as far as
> the end of the list. Three more lines.
> 
Easy to say. Perhaps someday this will be tested with a negative result.

> From the CFV you quoted:
> 
> >>Proposal E: Rename rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth
> >>Charter: "Synthesizers and computer music"  [UNCHANGED FROM CURRENT]
> 
> That is pretty clear.
> 
But the path to those two lines wasn't, to many eyes. It *can* be.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Administrators vs. users?
Summary: I think not!
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 20:31:57 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Followup-To: news.admin.policy

[followups to news.admin.policy]

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>Maybe you should be listening to some of those other 'whines' you
>complain about.

Oh, I do listen.  That's how I know they're whining.

>Usenet administration should be for the benefit of the readers, not
>the administrators.

What, you think it's a zero-sum game?  I think, in general, what's
good for either group is good for the other -- and don't forget that
administrators are also readers!

>Sorry people make it tough for you by disagreeing with your opinions.
>You took the job...

Perhaps you got the opinion that I consider it unpleasant to listen to
baseless complaints.  I don't.  I find them quite entertaining.

>> Decisions as to whether Dave Hayes' complaints constitute valid
>> concerns or futile whining are left as an exercise for your local
>> system administrator, who makes the important decisions anyway.
>
>Thanks for delineating what's important and what isn't.

How's that again?  I said it's up to _your_local_ administrator.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
From: st1pj@rosie.uh.edu (Marsha)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.equestrian.racing
Date: 12 Nov 92 03:36:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: rosie.11NOV199221360568
Followup-To: news.groups
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <BxIHMD.B2@uunet.uu.net>, metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu (Virginia Metze) writes...
>Are there people who would be interested in a news group on horse
>racing?
> 
>I would like it to cover all aspects of the sport, from wagering to
>track/racing conditions.  It would be a place to follow news about
>the sport, to learn more about it, and to express opinions.
> 
>As an example, topics like the following could be discussed:
> 
>	Information about upcoming races, and opinions on
>	chances of horses in the race
> 
>	Should we have phone-in wagering?  
> 
>	How do we increase interest in wagering and racing?
>	
>	Racing conditions, covering such topics as
>	track conditions, number of horses in race, track
>	surfaces, condition of horses.
> 
>	Examination of Breeder's Cup and discussion of
>	improving it, lowering accident rate, wagering
>	availability and pools
> 
>	Horse lineage 
> 
>	general information about handicapping
> 
>	'where to go' for betting on races
> 
>	general information about various tracks in the
>	country
> 
>	foreign horses racing here 
> 
> 
>Virtually all aspects of racing would be covered; readers
>would be expected to use subject line to avoid discussions they
>are not interested in or annoyed by.
>-- 
>Virginia Metze, speaking for no one but herself  + Impeach the Rehnquist
>metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu                        + 5, 6, or 7
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>VMS cluster managers:  do you know where your queue manager is right now?

YES!  I'd be very interested - thank you for bringing this up!
Just a note - the Mr. Brooks tragedy was horribel (horrible), but
I hope it will bring up ?'s about horse ssafety in the sprint races - 
and I hope it does not make people disenchanted w/ racing too much!
		- Marsha & de Clolresxx (sksjks  (sorry) & de Colores
From: john@cirrus.com (John Wishneusky)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.crafts.metalworking
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:23:31 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.  Fremont, California

In article <1992Nov5.060736.17397@netcom.com> tomrice@netcom.com (Tom R. Rice) writes:
>In truth, however, I do appreciate and take pride in what is commonly
>called "craftsmanship".  But, then, what do _I_ know?
>
A quick check of my paberback Webster's New World Dictionary yields
the following excerpts:

    craft n.  1. a special skill or art
	      2. an occupation requiring special manual skill
	      3. the members of a skilled trade

    craftsman n.  a skilled worker; artisan


I am proud to be called a craftsman in my career as an integrated
circuit designer.  (My boss used the term to characterize me in one of
my annual reviews, I was honored.)  I am proud of my craft skills and
workmanship as an amateur machinist and woodworker.

Let's accept "crafts" as an appropriate designation and get on with
forming a useful new newsgroup.

John
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: riley@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Daniel S. Riley)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:59:01 GMT

In article <7719@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>In article <1992Nov4.232744.9048@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>>Most of them didn't even know a vote was going on...
>For this statement to be true, you'll have to convince me that Dave Lawrence
>didn't post the RFD(s) or CFV(s) to rec.music.synth. I think he knows how to
>do his job much better than that. If the CFV(s) were cross-posted to r.m.s,
>then you don't have a complaint.

The CFV was posted to rec.music.synth, but the subject line declared
that it was for the rec.music.makers reorganization--it did not
indicate that rec.music.synth was also involved.  Give the amount of
netnews traffic, people may have skipped over the CFV as it wasn't
obviously of interest from the subject line (I certainly did).  I
suppose anyone with enough knowledge of voting procedures could have
inferred that the CFV was being posted in rec.music.synth because it
affected r.m.s, but expecting that level of knowledge of netnews
voting procedures from every interested reader is unrealistic.

I suspect much of this rancor could have been avoided if the subject
line of the CFV posted to rec.music.synth had clearly indicated that
the proposal included renaming r.m.s.

-- 
-Dan Riley                          Internet: dsr@lns598.tn.cornell.edu
-Wilson Lab, Cornell University     HEPNET/SPAN: lns598::dsr (44630::dsr)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: xtkmg@trentu.ca (Kate Gregory)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Organization: Trent University, Ontario
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:07:54 GMT


I read rec.boats.paddle, have done so since it was created, and
in fact helped the group proposer through the creation process.
The group is dominated by whitewater posts, but there is no
anti rowing sentiment other than that expressed by the rowers
themselves, in posts like "I know you all hate rowing but..."

The traffic is low, and I don't think a new group is necessary.
We can continue to share this one.

And besides, this is a very poor name. Sailboats have a crew,
power boats have a crew, and people who don't know much about rowing
(me for example) call it rowing, not crew. Last year when my father
was looking for crew to help him sail from Singapore to the
Mediteranean,
I posted in rec.boats. Had I seen a group called rec.boats.crew
you can be sure I would have used it to help him look for a boat
crew.

Kate
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Talking to vote-takers during the vote
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:02:17 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School
Disclaimer: I don't represent Dartmouth and Dartmouth doesn't represent me.

In <BxMG35.F7F@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:

>Let's say I have a question I'd like to ask the guy who proposed a new
>group and he's now taking votes on it.  The guidelines say he can't
>campaign for his group during the voting period, but can he respond to
>me if I start a discussion about it with him via email?  I don't want
>to put him in any jeopardy of invalidating the vote by tempting him to
>speak to me about it during the voting period if that's not allowed.

Now there's an interesting question. 
The way I see it, as long as the vote-taker keeps the status of the vote
confidential they should be free to discuss whatever they like over
private email.
There is a difference between having an opinion and campaigning.

-Geoff Bronner
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU - Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business
_____________________________________________________________________________
 Cerebus for Dictator in 1993!!    |    He doesn't love you, he just wants
     "Vote for me or else."        |           all of of your money.
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.unicycles
Date: 13 Nov 1992 20:21:07 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <27483@oasys.dt.navy.mil> mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh) writes:
>In news.groups, terry@santafe.edu writes:
>>NAME
>>  The name should probably be rec.unicycles, in line with the
>>  rec.bicycles hierarchy.  ...
>
>Actually, it is now rec.bicycle.* (singular).  There are six sub-
>divisions.  The original group, rec.bicycles, will be dropped soon.

   At my site, and I suspect more than a couple others, they are indeed
rec.bicycles.* groups (note plural form of "bicycle").

>Would it make sense to add unicycles to the bicycle anarchy (hierarchy)?
>The name would then be:
>			rec.bicycle.unicycle[s]

   As goofy as the name rec.bicycles.unicycles sounds, it's probably
a good place for a group, if one is necessary.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
Xref: sparky news.groups:21291 soc.culture.asean:7962
From: ustai@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:35:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: memstvx1.1992Nov11.233544.4048
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <1992Nov12.021018.9304@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Mar Siew Cheong) writes:
> Kyle Hor (khor@bnr.ca) wrote:
> : In article <1992Nov8.194018.5150@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, mhmann@nyx.cs.du.edu (Me Mann) writes:
> : |> In article <1dh209INN7t5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> lim@po.CWRU.Edu writes:
> : |> >
> : |> >In article <16897B41D.C96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>, C96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Alexander EICHENER) writes:
> : |> >$ In article <1992Nov6.061354.1583@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>
> : |> >$ mfltan@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Man) writes:
> : |> >$  
> : |> >$ >>Mar Siew Cheong (escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg) wrote:
> : |> >$ >> Proposed Newsgroup's Name
> : |> >$ >> =========================
> : |> >$ >>   soc.culture.singaporean

> : |> >$    I don't see the need for a separate net-clogger. Hongkong, Singapore
> : |> >$ and Macau might well be kept in one group.
> 	          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> 	Why should this be the case?

	From what I know, a new newsgroup is only created when you can show
that there is a need, and that need is not served by any of the existing
newsgroups.  This is not true as there is the soc.culture.asean.  Sometimes
splinter groups are "spawned" off, however, the usual cause of this is that
there is too much interest in one specific subject (ie, look at the comp.sys.*
groups).  This is certainly not true in soc.culture.asean.  There is interest
there, but the volume is not high enough to justify the creation of a new
newsgroup.
	One reason against the creation of a s.c.s is that many people feel
that it would be quite bothersome and time consuming to subscribe to s.c.a,
s.c.m and s.c.s and to participate as well.  I personally would find it
difficult to follow both s.c.a and s.c.s.  And there would be frequent cross
postings kicking up the waste of bandwidth.
	Each semester there would be a call for soc.culture.malaysia,
soc.culture.singapore, and there would be the usual "I support" and "I don't
support".  At this time, I don't think you will have enough "I support" votes.
I am sure there will come a day when the proposition will go thru.  Hopefully
it's not this time.  However, I wish you all the best as you seem quite
dedicated to creating it.
	I just hope you realise that the relationship between ASEAN countries
have always been better than other countries, and it would be "not good" to
sever the ties that are in s.c.a now.
	My two kupangs...  Ciao.

-Tai