HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: On Fealty
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 23:02:23

    Tibor wrote:

 MS> I think the only fair generalization that can be made, is that few
 MS> SCA people understand fealty, and that SCA fealty has little medieval
 MS> precedent.

    Substitute "medieval life" for "fealty" in the above sentence, and that
    captures the SCA in a nutshell.



 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Oldest/Youngest Rulers
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:03:42 GMT

Hanno won Eastern Crown when he was 17, and was king at 18.

Aryk
From: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 2 Jan 93 06:54:05 GMT
Reply-To: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Organization: MSU Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
NNTP-Posting-Host: msupa.pa.msu.edu

In article <BRANDON.92Dec31160746@gauss.math.brown.edu>, 
Simon [brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)] writes:

>Tadhg writes:
>
> JB> 2) Ten Words in which language?
>
>> Latin, for preference....
>
>Good luck; Latin blazoning was invented post-period, I'm pretty sure.  (I
>think Solveig knows.)  It certainly has nothing to do with the "core
>period" you keep talking about.

While it may be true that efforts towards a *systematic* Latin blazoning
system date from the 1600s,  it is demonstrably true that Latin blazoning
was used in period.  The Matthew Paris rolls [c. 1260] have the arms
described primarily in Latin, as do many other heraldic documents of
Tadhg's "core period" in England and elsewhere (even in areas such as the
Holy Roman Empire which were outside of "Western Culture" by Tadhg's
definition).  So this argument will not fly. 

And as far as insisting on a systematic, consistent blazoning language is
concerned, even the English/Norman-French style used by the SCA was not
quite as uniform in period as it is now (certainly not by Tadhg's "core
period" cut-off).  Of course, since we are not supposed to use period 
evidence to define how much of the actually-used-in-period "style" should
be emulated in the SCA (unless any given word- or syntax-variant appears in
over 50% of the cases), such inconsistencies are irrelevant ;-)

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jeremy de Merstone       George J Perkins    perkins@msupa.pa.msu.edu
 North Woods, MidRealm    East Lansing, MI    perkins@msupa (Bitnet)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 22:16:50

    Gwydden Lawen wrote:

 G> But the nice thing about that society is that it isn't fixed,
 G> that individuals can easily change it ...

    We Better Sort consider that a bug, not a feature.

 G> ... -- get something to happen three
 G> times, and you've created a sacred tradition, after all-- and so if the
 G> rules for heraldry change, then people will conform to the new rules, 
 G> and that will change what the SCA's heraldic style looks like.  Is
 G> there anything wrong with that?

    *sigh* Yeah. It Ain't Period to change things every other week.

    Three times does not a tradition make except in the rootless plastic
    make-believe modern world (of which the SCA is far too typical an
    example). The essence of a Real Tradition is doing it one way because
    nobody can remember when it *wasn't* done that way (the technical term
    is "time out of mind" or, more formally, "time whence the memory of man
    runneth not to the contrary").

    I recommend to your attention a very good (and thick) book, *La
    Tradition et Les Traditions" by Yves Congar, OP (available in English
    translation for the culturally challenged). Ignore the theological
    essay if you wish (although it would profit much to read it); the
    historical essay alone is well worth digesting.

 G> Tadhg later says that his heraldic preferences are "south of the
 G> Trent, north of the Loire, west of the Rhine, 1100-1400", though.
 G> Does that mean you think the SCA should intentionally steer its own 
 G> heraldic style to be like this, or that's just where your
 G> aesthetic ideals lie?

    Both. As anyone in the College of Arms can tell you, the congruence
    between my aesthetic ideals and how God intended things to be
    asymptotically approaches identity. 8-)

Tadhg, Obelisk


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Polish Persona and Heraldry
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 21:16:06

    Lothar wrote:

 TW>    If Anyone who knows of Greyraven and/or Polish heraldry or
 TW> ononymastics please email me or my client.\

 The person you seek is Master Eraszimerz Waspanieski, Baron Bjornsborg,
 sometime White Stag Principal Herald:
            Edward Wenzer
            220 North Resler Drive
            El Paso TX 79912

 Unfortunately, I am given to understand that he has more or less quit the
 SCA, so I don't know whether contacting him will do you any good.

    Tadhg, Obelisk Herald
    (sometime Mynydd Seren Pursuivant...)

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: "jeff zeitlin" <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: seasons greetings
Date: 24 Dec 92 20:23:46 EST
Reply-To: "jeff zeitlin" <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Executive Networks Information

Unto the good people of the Rialto:

Today is the first day of Tevet in the five thousand seven
hundred fifty third year of creation, and the sixth day of the
Festival of Lights in that year.  It is also the twenty fifth
day of December in the one thousand nine hundred ninety second
year of the common era.  On this day, Yosef ben Lazar wishes
all, regardless of religious affiliation, peace and joy in this
and every season.

These greetings being sent on this date from the Canton of
Northpass, in the Crown Province of {O/}stgardr, in the Laurel
Kingdom of the East.

Yosef ben Lazar
Golden Tygre Pursuivant
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile)
Subject: Non fighting royalty
Originator: colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au
Reply-To: colin@ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile)
Organization: IPS Radio and Space Services.  Sydney, Australia.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:59:12 GMT

Given that having interests other than fighting does not make a
a couple less suitable to rule than a fighter, what is so objectionable
about giving non fighters a chance to rule?

Juan
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:13:42 GMT

PA = Pavao Aaron
AN = Aryk Nusbacher

PA> I ... aspire to fight in Crown someday and if (on the off-chance) I win,
PA> I have no desire to become king.

AN> So why do you aspire to fight in Crown?

PA>	The Crowne Lists represents the epitome of fighting skill.  To be 
PA> recommended to fight at Crown is a high honour, indeed.
PA> It is a goal for which
PA> to strive.

Why is the crown list the apogee of fighting skill?  Because it's
filled with hot stick jocks, or because it's filled with people
fighting to make the person who inspires them the Queen of Love and
Beauty?  Fighting crown without wanting to be king (and make one's
inspiration queen) is like washing your feet with your socks on.

It's no honour if you're just in it for a good few bouts, or for the
glory of the invitation.

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: "Michael Squires" <mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Summary: revolvers are period :-)
Keywords: firearms 
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 09:05:37 -0500

In article <1gted3INN8md@agate.berkeley.edu> cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>
>I wonder, however, whether handguns may have been very _uncommon_, even

One of the Medici is alleged to have saved his life in the 15th century
by using a multi-barrelled pistol of some type (probably multiple
muzzle loading barrels with a single lock mechanism).

-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: 4 On Fealty
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 23:00:22 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  

I had written:

> I can swear fealty to or take fealty from anyone I wish, regardless of my
> rank or that of the other party.

Tadhg objected:

>     Incorrect. You have succumbed to the misapplication of the term
>     "fealty" common in the SCA. You can swear *homage* or take *homage*
>     from whomever you wish; it isn't *fealty* unless a *fee* is involved,
>     by definition.

Fine, I agree.  What is a fee is the context of the SCA?  You apparently
include only "real" things like a baron's tenure, and perhaps a peer's
rank.  I include a great deal more, taking my lead from the medieval
practice of exchanging payment of some kind for service, which was also
described in period as "fealty". 

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: guyw@advtech.uswest.com (Guy Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA geography (was: through a looking ...)
Date: 21 Dec 92 16:38:49 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

>John Doucette wrote:
>  	When I was talking with some friends in the SCA I mentioned that 
>  I'd like to form a Roman Cohort or a Highland Regiment.  They pointed out 
>  that those two organizations were outside the period, one a few hundred 
>  years before, the second a hundred years after.  I had not been aware of 
>  the exact period being examined but when I was made aware, I changed my 
>  mind.  I currently have no idea what kind of unit to form, but I am bending 
>  my energies to working in period.
>
The newest Knight of the Northern Outlands is Sir Titus Claudius
Severus, although he doesn't use the "Sir" title, he uses a roman
equivalent which I have conveniently forgotten at this time (darn it!).
The baronial war shields of Unser Hafen are Roman Scutums (sp?), and
looks and acts a heck of a lot like a Roman Cohort.

So, go for it!

As background, Titus's lady is a Celtic lady from Britain, and the two
make a wonderful warring couple (she fights _very_ well). :-)

Jalut
-- 
--
Guy M. Wells <guyw@uswest.com>  Disclaimer: My opinions are mine, no
U S WEST Advanced Technologies  one elses, and certainly not USWEST's!
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: DEW@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Baron Dur al-Jabar)
Subject: Re: SCA Forums
Organization: Orluk Oasis
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 18:57:11 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24


In <4TkHwB9w165w@jab.tucson.az.us> pwr@jab.tucson.az.us writes:

#> Greetings unto all upon the Rialto:
#>  
#> I am curious as to whether there are any other message forums which are 
#> SCA specific.  If so, please provide me with forum titles.
#>  
#> Volfred

Let's see...

There's Thinkwell (Aelflad of Duckford), a newsletter camparing customs on 
philosophys of various kingdoms.

Pinkwell (Goodwife Dou-sabots) for Polly-Anna's with rose spectacles focusing 
on the glamor of SCA careers.

Stinkwell (another underground publication), the SCAndal sheet with all the 
latest (and some ancient) dirt on the notables and stuffed-shirts of the Known 
Worlde.

Just to name a few...

Dur T. Nasty (olde Barron)

( I am NOT from Olde-Baron-Land of the Outlands!)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Re-joining the SCA as a Bandit
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:05:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.225245.3949@epas.toronto.edu> nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.211633.13471@nas.nasa.gov> cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano) writes:
>
>>As I have often been told, it's not where you live but who you play
>>with. In the Mists it easy to live in one barony or province and
>>play with another.
>...
>>So pick a group that you wish to be associated with,
>>and go to the events you want to go to. Most baronial events in
>>our area are well intended by members of other groups.
>
>Goddamn Westies.  Just get on the BART and boot over to the next group.
>
>Sure.

I counted...  In the immediate Bay Area (I picked which ones I think
of as 'near by' and omitted the others...), there are 13 groups named
in the Regnum.

Actually, from teh South Bay, you'd have to use CalTrain (going
through about 3 or 4 groups) to get to San Francisco, or go around the
south end of the Bay (through San Jose) through 3 or 4 different
groups to get from where she is to where I am.

>Euriol, there's a lotta wheat between baronies in Calontir.

We use salt water between 'em.  You don't have to harvest it.  :-)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: rogerp@qed.cts.com (Dr Roger Parks)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Non-Steel Re: On the nature of armor....
Date: 25 Dec 92 21:51:06 GMT
Organization: The QED BBS, Lakewood CA

doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes:

> 
> mcs@unlinfo.unl.edu (michael straatmann) writes:
> ] This is not the case throughout the Known World.  As I understand it,
> ] the only thing _required_ to be steel is the helm.
> 
> I don't think that's even strictly true. Although there are warnings
> about low-mass helms in the rules, there is no actual requirement
> for them to be made steel. 
> 

Good My Lord,
 
Per the Caidan Marshall's Handbook, helms here are required to be 
constructed of '...16 gauge steel or its equivalent (note: regardless of 
the gauge indicated, the steel must be at least 0.0625"\ 1.6 mm \ 1/16" 
in thickness."  I presume that, absent any adverse ruling(s) by either 
the Earl Marshal here in Caid or the Society's Marshall, some aluminum 
alloy might be used (say, 6061) but...  I agree with your point re mass.  
I do NOT want my cervical spine to take any shock that can be absorbed by 
the mass of my helm.
 
Y'r S'rv't within the Society,
 
Laird Andrew MacIan of Blackthorne, called the Wyvern
 
__________________________________________________________________________
Dr Roger D. Parks               "Have fun stormin' th' Castle!!"
rogerp@qed.cts.com              ShadowDragon Enterprises
+1.909.358.8244                 Consulting on Software and Armour

------------------------------
rogerp@qed.cts.com (Dr Roger Parks)  or  qed!rogerp
The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327
From: dgreen@athena (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Date: 24 Dec 1992 07:14:04 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.berkeley.edu

Hello to all, and especially to Tibor, from Bjalfi!

You write:
>Bjalfi, you are confused.
>  2) Acknowledge that Padraigh and Caitlin are in fact the same person,
>  so that Padraigh can fight _and_ choose a male consort.  When the pair
>  step up, it's Caitlin and X, even though Caitlin (as Caitlin) had nothing
>  to do with the tourney.
>
>The SCA does not regulate Persona.  Caitlin can play whatever mental
>exercises she delights in, dress as she will, etcetera.  It doesn't
>matter.  As long as one member of the Royal Couple is genetically
>female and the other male, and all other membership and local requirements
>are met, it's strictly a personal matter.

Well, yes.  I think we're saying much the same thing here.  It's just that
you say "Caitlin can do what she wants" and I offer an option of something
she might want to do.

>My philosophical piece of spit, is that if anyone is a resident of the
>mythical land of the SCA, it is the King and Queen.  For the duration
>of their reign, that is where they are from.  And here, in our Laurel
>Kingdoms, women can fight and win in Crown Tourney.  If your reign
>wants to be flavored by the land you once inhabited, that makes sense.

Of course the SCA allows women to fight.  But Caitlin seems to have
higher personal standards of historical authenticity than the ground
rules of the SCA: _she_ will not allow herself, as a woman, to fight.
So she becomes a man.

>In a very real sense, the worst thing you can do to a consistent persona
>story is become an SCA King or Queen.  So many of your actions become
>proscribed to be inauthentic.  I trust Duke Cariadoc abu Patri has
>some insight into that.

Since I have no ambition to become King (well, maybe as a Consort)--
indeed, no desire to take up heavy fighting at all--I have nothing
to say to this.  I would be interested to hear His Grace's opinions,
though.

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Is there an Archivist of the West?
Date: 29 Dec 92 04:52:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.C0087w.H8y
Distribution: usa
Organization: Open Communications Forum



I need to locate the kingdom archivist of the West. I need to correspond about
records of the 1st decade of West history as to branches in existance then.

Moreach NicMhaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Canonical Hours
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:11:03 GMT

Otter Aelfwyn wrote:
  	I have a request of the Rialto: If any of the good gentles assem-
  bled here has previously posted a "newsletter-worthy" article, could he or
  she drop me a note at acsrdl@umassd.edu?
	[ . . . ]
  P.S.  I recently downloaded the articles on "Belly-bunnies" and Fealty --
  and I'm really beginning to wonder if I should include the rest of the
  thread the latter article has spun!  ;-)

I hope that you don't publish someone's words without their express consent.
Speaking strictly for myself, I'd rather not have something published
without my knowledge.  Often I will make statements on the Rialto that are
not exactly my best written work, or which express positions on which I
will later change my mind, and no longer wish my old opinions to be
published as current.  (Yes, sometimes you folks are persuasive.)

Be that as it may, I have a few things that I could share.  Drop me a
note.  Also, have you checked the various SCA related FTP sites?

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Through a looking glass, darkly
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 22:23:02 -0500

 -=> Quoting Alex Tewes to All <=-

 AT> From: u883161@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Alex Tewes)
 AT> Organization: University of Tasmania (Australia)

 AT> Greetings all!

 AT> I have a question that has been bothering me for a while.

 AT> Our group exists right at the edge of the world, in the far far
 AT> Southern  Reaches.  We only know the richness and variety of the SCA in
 AT> the Greater Known World from photos and the tales of travellers.  In
 AT> looking at all the photos which have made their way down to us, I
 AT> notice the complete absence of black faces.  Why is that?   Is the SCA
 AT> in some way culture-specific in not being interesting to blacks? or is
 AT> there some prejudice involved? 
 AT> My somewhat limited experience is that SCA folk are liberal in thought
 AT> and deed so I cannot believe that prejudice is the answer.  I
 AT> understand that blacks  make up about 13% of the USA population, if so,
 AT> why do they appear to be so  rare within our ranks?

 AT> I'm asking this out of sheer curiosity and hope not to have offended
 AT> anyone. 
 AT> Martin de Mont Blanc    (mka Alex Tewes)

 AT> Shire of Ynys Fawr/ Lochac/  West

 AT> Purpure, four bendlets enhanced
 AT> and in base a mullet of five, Or

 AT> -!-
 AT>  ! Origin: E.I.L.C. BBS Your source for Information 1-407-676-2998
 AT> (1:374/60.0)


Hi there....
 There is no prejudice in the s.c.a. since I've been in .I have seen a few 
 black's that was in the antir region very few at that.It could be that they 
 are just not interested in the S.C.A.  To tell you the truth I really
 don't know this is just my opinion & expirince...

                        Shay Wrobel....



 * Origin: Split Infinity (1:374/302.0)
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period calendar; Nonfighter kings; Drachenwald ideas
Date: 2 Jan 93 00:14:12
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
	<DOCONNOR.93Jan1101330@potato.sedona.intel.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se
In-reply-to: doconnor@sedona.intel.com's message of 1 Jan 93 10:13:30

William here, hello.

Dennis wrote:

>Except that I feel the primary duties of the Monarchs is to get
>around, visit their domain, see that their Kingdom is healthy
>in every corner of it.

Don't you think that longer reigns would make this easier to fit
into the Royalty's schedule and wallets?

William
From: Johannes.Ramsey@f111.n363.z1.fidonet.org (Johannes Ramsey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 10:02:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:363/111 - The SCSI Resource, Orlando FL

* In a message originally to All, sinister@ac.dal.ca said:
 ss>        I am wondering... does anyone have a "Period
 ss>Calendar", as
 ss>it were, covering the popular
 ss>Holidays/Observances/NoteableTime
 ss>Bits of Period?  I keep seeing posts ended with things like
 ss>"Written the 3rd Day before Michealmas";  it would be
 ss>interesting
 ss>to have a list for things like dating scrolls and missives.
Try the Old Farmer's Almanac - at your supermarket check out.
Yrs &c,
 johan - Johannes.Ramsey@z1.n363.f111.fidonet.org 

--  
        Johannes Ramsey  -  via FidoNet Node: 1:363/42
             UUCP:  -  ...tarpit!tous!business!111!Johannes.Ramsey
             ARPA:  -  Johannes.Ramsey@f111.n363.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca