From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Dr. Mishitch, the Bishop of Mostar
Date: 19 Dec 92 06:37:53 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland


In article <1992Dec18.172655.18681@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.171035.11601@eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec17.160420.18632@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>>
>>>Friendly relationship will occur when Croatian president offers to go 
>>>to Jasenovac and apologise there for few hundred thousand Serbs that 
>>>died there. 
>>>
>>There you go again...  you know very well that the Croatian president
>>is willing to apologize for what Ustashas did, but that nobody in this
>>world would accept the blame for your inflated figures.  
>
>>Croats in general feel strongly that Ustashas' crime 
>>must not be reduced.  However, it must not be inflated either.  So
>>let us agree to accept the conclusions of the studies based on actual
>>counting: demographic studies, census data, victim lists, etc.  
>
>Victim list is mentioned by Tudjman as method used by those who
>are not strayed away by emotions to claim that more than a 
>million Jews were killed in WWII.  

Victim lists are but one of the ways of cross-checking accuracy of
demographers' conclusions.  

>1948 census is useless for demographic studies, due to the criminal
>methods used by communist government, what is in the "Introduction
>to Census" called "new methodology, specific for our society."  

?????  Precisely what is wrong with methodology of simply counting people?
You are trying to make the facts fit your pet theory.  Logic dictates that
you should work the other way around.  But, whenever you do not like the
message, you shoot the messenger.  

>>When you do that, you'll find that the victims of fascist terror from
>>the territory of present day Croatia (which includes Jasenovac)
>>of all nationalities combined, mostly died in their towns and villages
>>(79,700 persons), fewer of them died in concentration camps (47,100), and
>
>Pits included in towns and villages?

No, pits are included in the concentration camps figure.

>>fewer still in bombings etc. (8,600).  These numbers do not include the
>>persons from Bosnia-Herzegovina and Srijem.  But even assuming that some
>>of the 85,000 persons from Bosnia-Herzegovina and the 9,683 persons
>>from Srijem who died in concentration camps were brought to Jasenovac
>>and killed there (not all of them Serbs), the evidence points to the 
>
>True, Muslims were killed in Jasenovac, have they chosen to be with 
>Partisans or Royalists.

So were many Croats.  Anyone whom the Ustashas did not like was at risk
of being sent there.  Even Vladko Macek, the leader of the main political
force in Croatia (Croatian Peasant Party) was imprisoned in Jasenovac
for a while (but he was too well known to be executed).

>>inescapable conclusion that Serbian militants are inflating Jasenovac by 
>>an order of magnitude and waving it as a bloody shirt in front of 
>>their people in order to get the Serbs to carry out another genocide today.
>>This is why Croats reject Serbian militants' inflated figures.  This is
>>why Serbian nationalist mythology is dangerous, and why it needs a dose 
>>of reality.
>
>Precision of this number striked me, especially considering the nature 
>of census data of 1948.  I read them in Tudjman's book (Kocovic, Zerjavic )
>together with documents " illuminating the self-government in Jasenovac" 
>describing how Ustashe were saving Serbs from greedy Jews.

This is your interpretation, not Tudjman's.  In all concentration camps
people were treated unequally -- until they were killed.  In death everyone
was the same.  

>This is approximately as German saying to Jew:
>"We are going to apologise for all half a million Jews that
>we killed in the WWII.  We have list with names of victims, and with 
>all due respect that is it."

The number of Jews who perished in WWII has been deduced from demographic
studies and census data for various European countries.  I'm not sure
if anyone had attempted to create a list of victims -- but such a list 
would only serve as a cross-check for other demographic data.  So your
hypothetical situation is completely inappropriate.

>Exactly because of the behavior like this Serbs in Croatia are not
>going to go along and live in that Clero-fascistic state.  Mr. Loncaric
>and likes do not quite understand what for Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia,
>even the least millitant ones, even those who were initially ready not to 
>live in Yugoslavia, Jasenovac, Gradiska, unique concentration
>camps for children in Sisak and Jastrebarsko mean ( yes, unique contribution
>of the thousand years old culture ).  

Sadly, these children camps were not unique in WWII.  Serb feelings about
the camps are naturally strong.  But emotion should not overcome reason.
You, and Serbs in general, should have enough reason to sit down, examine
evidence as reasonable people, and come to some logical conclusions.

As long as we are talking about feelings, non-Serbs have feelings too.
I do not remember you apologizing once for slaughters by Serb Chetniks in WWII,
nor do you show any feeling for the civilians shelled by Serbian forces
in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina today. 

Your hatred has been generated recently.  At least, that's what I hope;
or did you always hate Croatia so much?  Where did you get this crazy
idea that Croatia is a "Clero-fascistic state" ?   Did this come
from the same source which concieved a great "KGB-Vatican" anti-Serbian
conspiracy?  

--Josip