From: saavik@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Marla Belzowski (K-9's))
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Heeling advice requested
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:39:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.45827
Organization: Purdue University

In article <1992Apr16.201254.17501@tfs.com> kudzu@tfs.com (Michael Sierchio) writes:
>In article <45782@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
>	saavik@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Marla Belzowski (K-9's)) writes:
>>>
>>>Recently the rather disorganized instructor has suggested that we
>>>might need to try Barney on one of those corrective collars - a
>>>step up from a choker.  I'm reluctant to do this until all other
>>>methods fail.
>>
>>Another way is to "pop" him with the lead.  I usually
>>pull up and back when dogs are just  totally ignoring the heel.
>>This way they get a little slack at first and learn that they
>>can walk with a loose lead, but when they start pulling, they
>>get jerked.  I say "no" as I lift and "heel" again as the lead is slack.
>>As they allow the lead to stay slack, I say "good dog".
>
>NOT on a six-month old pup! -- studies show that dead-chain and
>choke-chain corrections on young dogs (< 12-18 mos.) cause skeletal
>damage.  Six months is too young to demand much in the way of
>compliance, anyway, and isn't very good for morale -- it's the time to
>keep things on a positive note.
>
>While they may look evil, "pinch" collars are more humane for a number
>of reasons than choke collars -- they may also be used on a younger dog
>without the risk of injury that a choker causes.
>
>Basically, to answer your original question - Yes, you are expecting too
>much of a six month old dog.
>-- 
>Michael Sierchio                               TRW Financial Systems

I've never hear of chain chokers causing any damage if used properly.
I've always used them and my dogs are just fine.  I usually start
training with a chain collar at 5-6 months (depends on the dog)
and so far it's always been positive.  But then again, I use several
positive training methods.

You'll notice that I put binding first.
Mostly because I don't like the jerk method, but it has worked
for many people, so if the method works, use it.   I also have taught several
obedience classes over the last five years.  There are some dogs that
just don't react to any other way.  I don't condone jerking the dog
unless absolutely necessary to get the idea through to them that this
isn't play and drag time.  If you use any piece of equipment wrong
you can cause injury.  I've never yet had a dog in my
classes injured on a regular
choke chain.  If you do use it correctly (not with it tight all
the time or to literally "CHOKE" the dog) then it is a great tool.
If you choke the dog by allowing it to continually pull against the
collar or give the correction wrong it can injure the dog.

I've seen far too many inexperienced people injure a dog with a 
pinch collar compaired to inexperienced people using a regular
chain collar.  It sounds to me like this instructor is quite
inexperienced and I wouldn't trust him/her to show me how to
use a pinch properly.        

You should be able to expect decent heeling from a 6 month old
puppy (not continual pulling or terrible general behavior).
The thing is you can't expect it right away.  You have to
work on it for some time until you KNOW that your dog understands
what you are talking about.  

That's why I provide a few different types of heeling.  Some
times one form will work and sometimes another type will work.
It all depends on the individual dog.  

I've had dogs at 4 - 5 months heeling nicely, and I've also had
dogs at 7 - 9 months still not understanding what heel was.  
It all depends on how much time you spend on it and how intelligent
and trainable your dog is.

Don't limit yourself to just one method. 

-------------------------------------------------------------
Marla Belzowski  saavik@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Mauii Nikki Belzowski  CD CGC TDI CERF
Brittish Legend of Beowulf (1leg CD) CGC TDI CERF  tri-color collies