From: towfiq@justice.UUCP (Mark Towfiq)
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:48:09
Organization: Towfiq System
In-reply-to: abbasa@ul.ie's message of 10 Oct 92 13:17:22 GMT
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Please leave Baha'is out of this issue(Re: Israel..
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Distribution: world

>>>>> On 10 Oct 92 13:17:22 GMT, abbasa@ul.ie said:

a> It is not simply true that Bahais are being proscuted from early
a> days.

  Immediately after the declaration of the Bab, the Babi and Baha'i
Faiths were ruthlessly persecuted; 20,000 people were killed during
that time.  This is corroborated by independent accounts.

a> They were very well-off during Shah regime.  All key posts were
a> held by them.  Amir Abbas Hoveda (sp. ?), a Bahai, was probably the
a> longest serving prime miniter to the extinct Shah of Iran. 

  Hoveyda was not a Baha'i (although he was accused of being one;
because of the bitter religious prejudice in Iran, this is a common
way of trying to discredit someone).  A schoolyard insult is "sag-e
Baha'i": "Baha'i dog".

a> The notorious SAVAK (For who do not know, Savak was a seccret
a> police of Shah which excuted and tortured the opponets to the
a> regime in a barbaric fashion) was overwhelmingly staffed by Bahais.

  ... who immediately arrested their fellow believers, took away their
homes, and destroyed Baha'i holy places, right?  Where are you getting
these ideas?

a> If after revolution a lot of Bahais were proscuted or got hanged,
a> it was because of their crimes, which they did during shah time.

  You seem to be speaking here with a conviction not based on
evidence, but on prejudice.  Please tell me what crime "during the
shah time" the 16-year-old girl Mona committed that warranted her
hanging.

a> Ordinary Bahais are safe and sound like other peacefull citzens of
a> the islamic republic.

  No Baha'i is either safe or sound in today's Islamic republic.  To
examine this for sure, why don't you become a Baha'i and go back to
Iran?  I will be interested in your report.

a> Todays we hear a lot of tales about Bahai proscution in Iran.  Most
a> of them are forged and are a part of propaganda compaign started by
a> the west to discredit Iran.

  I hope you realize how hollow this sounds.

a> The hypocrisy of the western media is cleary exposed when one look
a> at the their criminal silence over the vast humane rights violation
a> during shah time.

  Wasn't it President Carter's pressure on the Shah about human rights
that led to his downfall?  He said the Shah could buy no more arms
until he fixed the human rights abuses.  When the Shah released his
grip on the people, they started demonstrating, and he didn't
violently crush them like he would have previously, because he wanted
more arms.  This was reported in the press the whole time.

a> Unfortunately, I forgot to bring with me a big bag of documents
a> when I got here :-)

  Oh, no problem, just go back to Iran with "Baha'i" stamped on your
passport and bring them out.  Maybe we can start a collection here to
buy you your ticket? :-|

a> what about those Bahais who were high ranking official during Shah
a> regimes and were involved in murdering ordinary citizen of Iran?

  What can we say about a null set?  Or were you going to name one
such "high-ranking official ... involved in murdering ordinary citizen
of Iran", and tell us what he did?

a> Are they considerd Bahai or not? If not, was that made clear to
a> them when they were in power?

> "In every country where any of this people [i.e. Baha'is] reside,
>  they must behave towards the government of that country with
>  loyalty, honesty and truthfulness. This is that which hath been
>  revealed at the behest of Him Who is the Ordainer, the Ancient of
>  Days."
> 				Baha'u'llah  -Tablets of Baha'u'llah-

a> The loyality to the govenment or country?

  It says "government".

a> Loyality to the country is a better principle.  If one is loyal to
a> a country he/she would be loyal to a government which is loyal to
a> the people.  What you people will do if the governmet is
a> autocratic?  The people who were faithful to shah they probably
a> practised the same teaching, that is, loyality to the govenment of
a> the time.  I wonder why they forgot this principle soon after
a> islamic revolution?

  I can't understand exactly what you are saying, but you can
investigate for yourself that the Baha'is of Iran have acted in
accordance with Baha'u'llah's teachings that were quoted above.  When
the Shah imposed limitations on the Baha'is, they obeyed.  When the
Islamic Republic dissolved the institutions of the Faith, the Baha'is
obeyed.

> It is important to point out the underlying philosophy for the
> Baha'i non-participation in political affairs. Abdu'l-Baha says in
> reference to religion and politics:

> "Religion is concerned with things of the spirit, politics with
> things of the world. Religion has to work with the world of thought,
> whilst the field of politics lies with the world of external
> conditions.  It is the work of the clergy to educate the people, to
> instruct them, to give them good advice and teaching so that they
> may progress spiritually.  With political questions they [i.e.
> clergy] have nothing to do.

> 						`Abdu'l-Baha

a> Here there is contradiction in Bahaism. Eralier on you said that
a> any Bahai who participate in politics is removed from your
a> community and now you are saying only celrgy has nothing to do with
a> politics.

  a) Baha'is are not allowed to participate in _partisan_ politics
(please look up the meaning of this word if you do not know it).

  b) the quotation above does not say "only clergy has nothing to do
with politics".  Read it again.

a> If spirit is purified, it will affect positively the human body,
a> won't it?  In other words, if a man has a purified spirit, he will
a> be a man of wisdom and will be uncorruptabl, right?  If we look at
a> the world politics, we will notice that all troubles in the world
a> is caused by the bunch of those polticians who are materialistic,
a> corrupt and oppressors. This are so because they have got dirty
a> spirit.

  I would agree with this, except for the fact that one cannot purify
one's spirit permanently; this is a never-ending process of life.
Only the Prophets of God are uncorruptable; by definition man can
always be corrupted.  This is why we must pray every day, and always
struggle.  We must also try to avoid those people, environments, and
other influences that will lead us astray.  This is a daily vigil.

a> Why should we leave the important job governing to such bad people?
a> Why should not those people who have healthy spirit as well as
a> heathy mind come forward and take control of the world in their
a> hands and relieve innocent people of this trouble?

  This will not be accomplished by man-made (and therefore flawed)
political strucutres; they are corrupt in their incarnation and cannot
be purified.  Pure people will become corrupted by them.  The only
solution is a God-given system; this is the World Order of
Baha'u'llah.

a> It is totally unrealistic to think that by just preaching one day
a> will come when every one will be peaceful. You will never see that
a> day.

  I agree, that is why when Baha'is do not have to defend their Faith
on the net from false accusations, we can go about our job of trying
to show forth deeds which will transform humanity.

a> What about those who are being killed and tortured today? If you
a> are allowing the oppressors to rule, the world would remain a house
a> of troubles and you would never be able to heal the body of the
a> world until cancerous tissues are cut off.

  The world will forever remain a "house of troubles" (nice phrase!)
until humanity learns to address the root causes of its problems, and
not attack the symptoms.  Baha'u'llah has come with the teachings to
do that, and that is what Baha'is are working on.
--
Mark Towfiq				towfiq%justice@eingedi.newton.ma.us

"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens" -- Baha'u'llah
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan