HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Immigration (was Re: June Genis in the Orange County Register)
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:20:48 GMT

I'm sorry if I mis-interpreted your statement...

I'd like to know exactly what sort of "entitlements" we are talking about...
education, health care, hospitalization, welfare, what?

Somehow, I can't picture someone actually preferring living on the dole in
a foriegn country, especially considering how pitiful the lifestyle is,
to working in their own country.  One would have to be pretty desperate.

I just think the whole issue is a red herring.

Thom
From: wombat@key.COM (Joan Eslinger)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Support for Boy Scouts
Date: 25 Jul 92 21:56:56 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Advanced Systems, Fremont CA

Back around 1970 in central Illinois, my mom was a Cub Scout den mother
and my dad was Packmaster. I'm not positive they're both atheists, but
I know the only times I've ever seen my parents in a church has been at
weddings, and we kids were definitely not brought up to believe in
supreme beings. No, my main complaints with scouting have been their
sexist and homophobic policies.

Wombat / wombat@key.amdahl.com
From: lpb@florida.swdc.stratus.com
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: I'm enraged.
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:28:33 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

In article <yc=m!b-.mzimmers@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:
>In article <1992Jul16.220045.1750@cheshire.oxy.edu> leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt) writes:
>
>>[an interminable diatribe that was about as clever as it was classy...]
>
>Word up, homeboy.  I don't know from under what rock you emerged spewing
>your septic vitriol, but this newsgroup is not a forum for the criminally
>profane.  Clean up your act or get lost.
>
>And consider this a friendly warning -- the next one goes to your postmaster.
>-- 
>Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
>SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
>Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974

Personally.....I dont think you'll have much luck. I was
already told by another moderator that actually proving the
author of any given article is fairly impossible.  But
anyways, I dont see what he wrote as being profane.....perhaps
this issue is yours?

Len

DISCLAIMER: My opinions are my own and do not reflect those
held by my employer. And my postmaster doesnt give a rat's
hoot about this net! :^)
From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Help for California Libraries! Dire Need!
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:17:19 GMT
            <1992Jul13.143637.3636@unocal.com>
            <1992Jul19.081048.7791@adobe.com>
            <1992Jul22.030701.6889@informix.com>
Reply-To: asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Followup-To: ba.politics,ca.politics
Distribution: ca
Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks

Written in article <1992Jul22.030701.6889@informix.com>
 by proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts):

: In article <1992Jul19.081048.7791@adobe.com> pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) 
:    writes:
:> Personally, I'd like to see public libraries shut down so there could
:> be a market for private libraries. 

: But there *is* a market for private libraries - you, and people like you.
: Not enough of you to be a viable market and encourage people to open
: private libraries? - too bad.

The problem is that no business person in his/her right mind will start
a private library today, precisely because the public libraries have NOT 
been closed down.  It's essentially a matter of competition.  How do you
compete against a FREE resource?

There are number of options available in privatizing the library system.
We start by saying "no more public libraries" and take all that money
which currently funds them and reduce taxes by that amount.  Then, we
sell the ex-public libraries to private concerns, and take all THAT
money and reduce taxes by THAT amount.  (This could be a pay-per-month
type sale, rather than a lump-sum.  Possibly, the buildings and equip-
ment could be leased for a while.)

Then we simply allow the private concerns to compete with each other for
library business.  They can each independently try difference schemes,
from an annual membership borrow all the books you want, to a video-
rental type scheme, where you pay a buck or so to rent a book.

In either case, I suspect that lost books would be a thing of a past.
Private concerns won't be able to afford that, so they'll likely use the
video-rental technique of taking your credit-card number, and if you
don't return something, you are billed the "retail value" (roughly 10x
what the thing actually sells for).

: Bet you'd be really impressed if I said that I'd like to see the national
: highway system closed down so that there was more of a market for railways,
: because I happen to like travelling by train.

There'd also be a market for private roadways.  I mean, all those roads
won't just suddenly disappear.  Someone would have to buy them, then
maintain them.  They would bill the users for actual use (vs. taxing
EVERYbody, whether they use or not).

I'll admit there may be some problems to solve for a 100% private road-
way system, but lets not completely disregard the suggestion out of hand
because of that.

At any rate, none of those problems exist for a private library system, 
so what's the beef?

-- 
The Chipmunk.
Opinions are mine, batteries not included, void where prohibited.
Hall's Third Law of Politics: Liberals defend military spending, and 
conservatives social spending, in their own districts.
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: JUNE GENIS IN THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER!!
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:04:47 GMT


  []
  Actually the LA Times ran a similar thing on a slew of local candidates
a couple of months ago, with answers to various issues the Times asked
them. In all cases, the Libs were included (actually to the exclusion of
any other party besides the demopublicans I believe, but maybe that's 
because there aren't any others here in OC ;-).
  Very refreshing.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: ceb@dbrus.Unify.Com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Subject: Re: JUNE GENIS IN THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER!!
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 17:04:05 GMT

In article <18982@fritz.filenet.com> asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk) writes:
>I can hardly believe it!  We actually got >>GASP!!<< media coverage of
>a Libertarion candidate!  

Maybe you're looking in the wrong places.  C-SPAN had a press conference by
Andre Marrou and a call-in program (with interview) with Ms. Gingell only last
week.


Carrie		ceb@rechenau.unify.com	x6244
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|		"Never" is about six months.   -- Charlie Gibbs		      |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Xref: sparky ca.politics:6025 soc.culture.asian.american:7139 soc.culture.african.american:8281
Newsgroups: ca.politics,soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.african.american
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: 1 white male among new San Jose firemen of 22
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 07:06:23 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <yBLgoB2w164w@netlink.cts.com> galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) writes:
>mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:

>> >The idea is not -- repeat, *NOT* -- to have whites experience the
>> >pains of racism simply because they are white. It never was. The
>> >idea was/is to let the victimizer (TRANSLATION: those whites who
>> >hold racist attitudes and engage in racist conduct) walk in the shoes
>> >of the victim (TRANSLATION: the non-whites on the receiving end of
>> >such attitudes and conduct) in the hope that the victimizer will
>> >awaken to the evil s/he is doing...and desist.

>> Greg, how do you intend to distinguish between racist and non-racist
>> whites for this purpose?  Seems to me like this is a really pathetic
>> rationalization of racism.  Maybe we should beat up Blacks because
>> Blacks have a higher crim rate than Whites.  The ideas is not --
>> repeat, *NOT* -- to have blacks experience the pains of crime simply
>> because they are black. It never was.  The idea was/is to let the
>> victimizer (TRANSLATION: those blacks who commit crimes) walk in the
>> shoes of the victim (TRANSLATION: the non-blacks on the receiving end
>> of such conduct) in the hope that the victimizer will awaken to the
>> evil s/he is doing...and desist.

>What's pathetic, Michael, is your attempted analogy...

Actually, Greg, I think you must have found it rather telling.
Otherwise you would not have found it necessary to delete the part of
the post describing the original situation.

>On the other hand, I wouldn't have much problem with black criminal
>suspects experiencing some of the emotional trauma they inflict on 
>their victims -- especially given the fact that the overwhelming
>majority of their victims are black, anyway.

Fine, but given that the policy in question - discrimination against
whites - does not single out racsists - why should we single our
criminals when we do a policy against Blacks?

>Although
>I don't think I'd have much trouble identifying racists who were
>eligible for it. In fact, that's the only aspect of it that *is*
>workable. 

Really?  So how do you do it?  Anyone whose political views you don't
like?  Anyone who votes for David Duke?  Jesse Helms?  Pat Buchanan?
George Bush?

>> >  This is *not* about retribution, revenge, retaliation, payback.
>> >It is about finding a way to induce certain people to desist from
>> >certain hurtful attitudes and behavior. Nothing more, nothing less.

>> Which people?  How do you plan to identify them?

I repeat the question.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu (June Genis)
Subject: Re: JUNE GENIS IN THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER!!
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: ca
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 04:42:23 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.234856.6990@odin.corp.sgi.com>,
zursch@whizkid.corp.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.215744.19008@morrow.stanford.edu>, June Genis
>writes:
>
>>I think it's appropriate to require someone to have been a resident
>>of a country for some period (I'm willing to negotiate the length of
>>the period) before giving them a right to vote.  People should have
>>some stake in the country either by virtue of family roots or
>>financial investment to have a legal voice in shaping it's future.
>
>The only thing above that strikes a question in my mind is the bit
>about "financial investment" - I assume that you're not proposing
>that rich people should be able to switch their bank accounts over
>or buy a business and thereby get citizenship preference or an
>earlier right to vote?

I'm not sure that investing in an American business shouldn't be
good for a few years credit toward citizenship.  A citizen ought to
be someone with a stake in the country and if someone owns a
business here he or she is going to be concerned with the economic
health of the country.  What I don't want to see is people getting
in the door and voting to put themselves on the public dole.  I want
people voting who have to *pay* for the public dole.

>Of course, the idea of giving each person the same number of votes for
>President as the dollars they pay in income tax has good daydream
>value. Boy howdy, if you wanted to see a candidate kiss up to the
>middle class!

I don't know about voting for president in proportion to your taxes
but it seems to me that you've got a real problem when there are
more people getting money from the government in some form than not.
And we reached that point a number of years ago.  While everyone
should have a say in picking the people who will govern the
non-economic aspects of their lives whether they pay taxes or not,
it bothers me that the same folks elected with the support of
non-taxpayers will be deciding who to hand out tax money to.  That
gives the politicians a built in incentive to get more people on the
dole and make more promises to give them other people's money.

>JZ

/June
Xref: sparky ca.politics:6015 ba.politics:3763
From: tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Re: California libraries/dire need (odd viewpoint :-)
Date: 25 Jul 1992 07:55:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: whistle.berkeley.edu

Looking at things from an odd viewpoint, how about this:

If we start making more use of the public libraries, maybe
we will get our monies worth out of them. The public-funding
scheme could work efficiently if enough people cooperated
(of course, that's the classical problem :-)

Public libraries are excellent for getting access to rare
old books (mainly what I use them for). Anyone reading
this ought to be able to telnet to melvyl or some similar
system, look up whatever book they're interested in, and
request it at the local library. Usually takes no more than
a week for the book to become available.

More generally, information is probably the most suitable
commodity for public funding, since if you pay for it once,
you can give it away infinitely often (is that a proof that
information is the ultimate type of "public good"? :-) Hard
to imagine how any other commodity could have a larger
spillover effect.

So in future, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of public
funding going into information networks and such. The only
thing that seems to compare as far as being appropriate for
public spending is roads and other transportation infrastructure
(which have a similar effect of making possible an almost
unlimited increase in public mobility once the roads are
laid down).

-- 
"An army is composed of idle and inactive men. Unless the general has a constant
eye on them this artificial machine will fall to pieces. If my soldiers began to
think, not one would remain. All that can be done is give them 'esprit de corps'
and keep them more afraid of their officers than the enemy" -Frederick the Great
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Subject: Re: JUNE GENIS IN THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER!!
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:53:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.234155.17076@morrow.stanford.edu>
GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu (June Genis) writes:
>>Citizenship for immigrants should not depend on how much money they
>>have.  Don't you think that someone who's worked for a couple years here
>>and exhibited good moral character should be able to get citizenship
>>faster than any old schmoe who just wanders in and plops down a couple
>>million?
>
>Depends on what you mean by "plops down".  Someone who invests a
>couple of million in a business has clearly indicated an interest in
>things long term.  While the act of becoming a citizen ought to mean
>that in and of itself, what citizenship means in practical terms is
>the right to vote.  If someone just comes here to work and doesn't
>see themselves as staying any longer than it takes to milk whatever
>they can out of the system and then go back to where their "real"
>roots are, I don't especially want to see them voting, since they
>will have a vested interest in voting for anyone who promises to
>give them something for nothing.  So what if it will screw the
>economy ten years down the pike, they won't be around to deal with
>the consequences.
>
>I don't see any way to screen this sort of person out except
>to have a long enough residency requirement that such people will
>probably give up and go "home" before they can vote.  Someone who
>has financial assets invested in the country is not going to just
>walk away from them so why make that person wait as long as the
>person whose level of commitment we have no way to judge?  I'd
>certainly be willing to consider other sorts of things that could be
>applied against a residency requirement as well as financial
>investment, but offhand I haven't got anything to suggest.  Do you?

I don't have any problem with long residency requirements, when you're
considering the granting of citizenship.  I wouldn't even mind if there
was a stipulation that time not spent gainfully employed didn't count
towards attaining citizenship.

What I do mind is the suggestion that bringing in a couple million dollars
could be a substitute for that residency requirement.  In the long run,
if we ensure that everybody we let into the country is of good character
(hard-working), we'll be better of than if we let any dolt become a citizen,
no matter how much material wealth they bring into the country.

    don
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: stgprao@xing.unocal.com (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: DNA databank
Originator: stgprao@xing
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:38:25 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.182057.17155@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
>
>It seems that CA has been collecting tissue/blood samples from some
>convicted/accused sex offenders.  These samples are currently just
>sitting in a refrigerator, but Lundgren (Attorney General) wants to
>tax day-care facilities so that these samples can be made useful for
>investigative purposes.  (Note that finger print databases are
>automated.  One finger samples, like the DMV collects, are good for
>"is this the person who gave this print?" questions but not "here's a
>print, find another set of prints in the database that matches".)
>
>Rather than discuss the precise details, I'd like to talk about the
>idea of universal ID systems, with respect to the convicted, the
>accused, and those of us who haven't even been accused.  (My personal
>bias is that accused people shouldn't be treated any differently than
>the rest of us and that all information gathered about them should be
>destroyed, but police vehemently disagree.)  Should govt have a useful
>DNA "fingerprint" database of certain subsets of the population?
>Which subsets?  How long should the entries be maintained?  Who should
>have access to the database?  Should the govt have such a database for
>the entire population?  How should access to their entries be
>controlled?

The military is starting a DNA database for its personnel for battlefield
ID purposes.  I don't know how long they plan to keep such records.

There is an article in the August Scientific American about hidden-key
databases.  It would use public key encryption.  For example, a credit-card
computer would give you a new social security number everytime you filed
a tax form.  The IRS would be able to verify that it was yours.  Because
the key would be different in different databases, they couldn't be cross
referenced for totalitarian purposes.

Xref: sparky ca.politics:6171 soc.culture.asian.american:7353 soc.culture.african.american:8440
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: No jobs in low-income neighborhoods?
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:58:48 GMT
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.

Commute times are deceptive... 

O.K., you're one of the many people with a minimum wage job... first,
I want to preface this with the observation that many of the people 
working at minimum wage take the bus (for instance, some people live
in South Central, and work out here in the Valley).

O.K., say you start out with no job, and no car... that cuts you out of
a few jobs.  Say you get a job... you have to take the bus for three 
months in order to establish your creditworthiness and get a loan...
o.k., you get a loan (if you're lucky) and spend $3000 to get a used
car, pay the downpayment on the insurance, and make sure it's legal
(note that many people drive sans legality).  Then you have to set aside
$$$ for gas, $$ for repairs, make your monthly payments on the loan, on
the insurance...

Think about it... many people simply are not economically able to qualify
for, or afford, a car.  And if you do get ahold of one, it takes $3,000
to $4,000 a year out of your annual income... regular liability insurance
alone in some areas is $1,400 a year... let alone the rates after a ticket,
if you want any other type, and the greater likelihood of police harassment
and ticketing resulting from being a person of color.

Earning $15,000 a year, you're left with $11,000... then deduct $6,000
for rent... deduct, deduct, deduct... 

IIf instead you ride the bus, you can face commutes up to 2 hours long...
it takes me 1.5 hours to get from Eagle Rock to West L.A. via RTD, and
that is with a dependable bus (I've been passed up several times, standing
at the stop... I suspect my hairstyle and manner of dress might have
something to do with it--how many more times is a person of color likely
tto be passed up by bus drivers who are nervous?)... some people spend
2 hours each way... leave at 5:30 a.m., get home at 7:30... and if you
work an odd shift, you get even worse commute times.

If your earn minimum wage or close to it, your take home is less than 
$10,000.  Manage a car and rent on that... jobs in neighborhoods are
important for all sorts of reasons.

Thom
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: foy@aero.org (Richard Foy)
Subject: Re: JUNE GENIS IN THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER!!
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 23:18:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.234155.17076@morrow.stanford.edu> GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu (June Genis) writes:
>Depends on what you mean by "plops down".  Someone who invests a
>couple of million in a business has clearly indicated an interest in
>things long term.  While the act of becoming a citizen ought to mean
>that in and of itself, what citizenship means in practical terms is
>the right to vote.  If someone just comes here to work and doesn't
>see themselves as staying any longer than it takes to milk whatever
>they can out of the system and then go back to where their "real"
>roots are, I don't especially want to see them voting, since they
>will have a vested interest in voting for anyone who promises to
>give them something for nothing.  So what if it will screw the
>economy ten years down the pike, they won't be around to deal with
>the consequences.

Putting down a couple of million on a business does not mean that someone
will stay here. The person might simply hire a manager and go back to the
old country. In fact some people in foreign countries buy businesses here
with out even moving here.

Richard Foy                       Standard Disclaimer
From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Email address for Dems?
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:18:37 GMT
Reply-To: asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Distribution: ca
Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks

Written in article <m0zftp2@Unify.Com>
 by dbrus.Unify.Com.ceb@unify.uucp (Caroline E. Bryan):

: Does anyone know the email address(es) of Democratic candidates?

Why do you assume the Democratic candidates to be bright enough to have
access to email?

(for the sarcasismodically challenged: B-{) :smiley w/glasses & mustache)

-- 
The Chipmunk.
Opinions are mine, batteries not included, void where prohibited.
If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that one of them is
doing the thinking.  -- Lyndon Baines Johnson
Xref: sparky ca.politics:5933 ba.politics:3707