HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: randyc@autodesk.com (Randy Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:56:46 GMT
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA


In article <92224.043758NAZ@auvm.american.edu> NAZ@auvm.american.edu
(Naz Reyes) writes:
>Is it because I'm a cute, masculine,
>Filipino guy that dress like a normal straight boy, as opposed to an
>Asian-madame-butterfly-lookalike-bottom-queen that looks like he
>just waltz out of Lord and Taylor's shopping store or something???
>Maybe I'm scaring the hell out all Americans, black and white, since
>they just can't accept the fact that I'm Asian, I'm masculine,
>I don't camp, I dance very well, but I don't dress to impress.

	Naz has taken heat on this statement as sounding
	either egotistical or down on drag queens (or both).

	I didn't read it that way at all, but rather as a
	comment on how many gayfolk -- particularly those
	who like to chase East Asian men (of whom I know a
	fair sampling) -- look at their potential objects
	of affection.

	As such, it made perfect sense to me and wasn't
	offensive at all -- certainly less offensive
	than men who expect Asians to be *only* 
	boyish/submissive/fashion-bunnies/born-abroad,
	or whatever.

	Not knowing Naz personally, I can't say which way
	he meant it.  I think he deserves the benefit of
	the doubt, though.

	-R

	P.S. I am back on the Net (I almost said, "in circulation,"
	but I haven't been out of circulation, just away from a
	newsfeed).  Greetings, all.  -R


--
There is a sad gaiety in our love, and though we have more wit
than Sunday lovers by the water's edge, our wit attracts misfortune.
							-- Genet
Randy Clark			{}!autodesk.com!randyc
Xref: sparky soc.motss:35871 ba.motss:1456
From: randyc@autodesk.com (Randy Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,ba.motss
Subject: Re: Jeans (was Re: Rob Bernardo)
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:40:15 GMT
Followup-To: ba.motss
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA


In article <2-!nahj.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>In article <22507@sybase.sybase.com> black@sybase.com (Chris Black) writes:
>>
>>He could be harsh about urban cowboy wannabes -- not that he was the
>>Marlboro Man himself.
>
>I remember a discussion we had once, in a gas station, about blue
>jeans.  There are, he claimed, strong preferences for particular brands
>among different types of cowboys.  Urban cowboys tended to like one make, 

	Levis

>rodeo cowboys another,

	Lee's

>and working cowboys a third,

	Wrangler

>because of differences in fit and how they make they wearer look. [...]

	At least, that's how friends from places
	as disparate (or not?) as Idaho, Arizona,
	and Texas have explained it to me.
>
>Wranglers feel more comfortable to me than Levi's, something which I regret
>- Levi Strauss is a local company, and one of the best corporate citizens
>there is.

	Agreed.  I still stick with Levis, as a loyal
	Californian and San Franciscan.

	However, I have a Wrangler shirt that I'm very fond of.

>Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107

	-R


--
There is a sad gaiety in our love, and though we have more wit
than Sunday lovers by the water's edge, our wit attracts misfortune.
							-- Genet
Randy Clark			{}!autodesk.com!randyc
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: Introduction
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:58:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.040257.7277@cis.ohio-state.edu>, amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky) writes:
> this is silly.

and goes on to explain why, in extremely cogent terms that I won't
spend the bandwidth to quote, and won't attempt to imitate.

I'm going to take the charitable and hopeful view that everyone who
posted to this thread after this post of Arnold's (including the
esteemed Jess and my dear friend Nelson) hadn't seen it yet, because I
really don't think it left anything more to be said.

Although I have to admire Jess for being able to take 103 lines to
say:

> In sum: situation normal, nothing to get excited about.

Robert
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: adye@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Alan Dye)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Starbucks (Was: I was gender f*cked, & I liked it)
Date: 15 Aug 92 17:13:34 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID

Sitting outside of Moxie Java, the local Coffee House and gathering
place for the alternative type.  I'm having a cup of Latte' with the sisters
and to my slight surprise, a cab pulls up to the bar across the way.  The
driver is a man in drag.  Knowing that I am in Boise Idaho, a "slightly"
conservative place, I ask John about it, and he says, smiling, "Oh, her.
Well, she's been doing that for a couple of years now.  Most of the locals
don't seem to mind."  It sure made my evening.

Alan "Slightly prouder now..." Dye
 
___________________________________________________________________________
Alan W. Dye   PHONE: (208) 323-6167        adye@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
                                           71053,1301@compuserve.com
    
Software Applications Specialist           "Cleverness is its own reward."
Hewlett Packard Boise Site Operations  
Information Systems Group                  #include <disclaim.h>
From: daniel@nstn.ns.ca (Daniel MacKay)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Parents...Ugh
Date: 21 Aug 92 11:36:54 GMT
Organization: NSTN Network Operations Centre, Nova Scotia, Canada

I think it's pretty simple.  Dropping out of university for a couple years
is nothing compared to losing your marbles.  My policy is that for some
parents, moving them away from a parent/child control relationship towards
a civil adult/adult relationship works well, the model being not that
you're "coming home" for the weekend, but that you're visiting for the
weekend.  That makes you a guest (you have to behave civilly too!) and them
hosts- that's a different set of rules.

 - Have cash/an open ticket "home".  Don't leave without it.  "Home" 
   means your own space, away from where your parents are.  Know the 
   bus/airline/train schedules and when you can leave.  Make sure your
   parents know that you know, but don't flaunt it.

 - Make a deal with them beforehand -- it may take a longish phone call --
   that while you'll talk about being gay (to whatever extent you're
   comfortable) you won't talk about conversion, hell, or any negative
   things about your sexuality.  These are important things for them, 
   though, so I'd offer to respond to letters from them on those subjects, 
   either this weekend, or later.  Writing to someone in the same house 
   sounds strange; I've done it, though, and it works.  Putting things
   in a letter also allows them to think them through a bit.

 - The open ticket isn't a weapon, (i.e. not "If you're not nice to me,
   I'll leave!) it's an escape.  Don't threaten to use it, but if
   the time with your parents seems to be going irrevocably bad, try to
   leave on cheerful terms.

 - Your personal mental health is more important than your relationship
   with your parents.  It comes first.

 - Once more, your independence is not a weapon, it's just a fact.  Your
   parents have a choice; they can be civil and spend time with you, 
   or not, and not.  It's up to them.  If they can't accept and support
   you as you are, you're gonna have to do it yourself.

--
Daniel MacKay					daniel@nstn.ns.ca
Homo habilis
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Sexual attraction
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 22:30:52 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Aug14.144652.18820@osf.org>

Robert Coren writes:
>I wonder, though, George -- and I hope you'll take this in the
>friendly spirit in which it's intended -- whether what you've
>experienced is sometimes a bit of overreaction to the fact that you
>have a habit of being a mite assertive about your own tastes, at least
>in this venue. Know what I mean?

This is interesting, because I was thinking specifically of
NON-net discussions/arguments on the topic of attraction when
I posted earlier.

And yes, I am assertive about my tastes -- but I don't think to
a degree that's outrageously out of step with the world I live
in.

Of course, I've just recently been in a flame war on a local BBS
on a related topic, and a semi-neutral observer noted that (at
least in this particular context) when a Bear-lover such as
myself made a comment directly equivalent to one made by someone
into another type, it was *perceived* as being much more hostile
and negative, judgemental, &c.  It's been interesting.
 
() When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he
() always declares that it is his duty.
()      -- G.B. Shaw
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: AIDS speech Wed @9PM EST Republican Convention
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:17:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: tc.1992Aug19.221703.15407
Reply-To: shore@tc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell Theory Center

[]
I just heard a wonderful interview with Fischer on NPR.  The
interviewer asked her how she felt about the negative language
being used against gay and lesbian (yes, he used the 'l' word)
people at the convention, given that the gay community is her
natural ally in AIDS activism.  She then proceeded to give a
lengthy discourse on some completely unrelated topic, so he
asked her again.  She hemmed and hawed, made an incredibly
vague remark, and then said "well, I really can't help it,
can I?"

Yes, she can, as a matter of fact.  If anyone is poised to
slow the right-wing hatefest going on in Houston this week
(I don't think anyone can stop it - those people are just too
selfish), it's Fischer.  That she is unwilling to do so needs
to be made explicit.
-- 
       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: wendyt@cs.washington.edu (Wendy Thrash)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 08:36:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.012058.5470@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
>
>Mlle dyer, mlle hughes, & mlle twpierce:
><blah, blah, blah>

Now here comes the old "get a wife" solution:
>Given the choice, I'd still opt for a real lady instead of 
>any of you three "wannabe's".  Even I have *some* standards.

So do we, you brainless fuck.  Tell you what, though; bring that prize
weenie of yours around to my place and I'll be happy to stretch and mount it
for you.  (For the ultradense, we're talking taxidermy, not sex.)  That way
you can always have it on display.  We might even add a little brass plaque,
so folks will be able to identify it.

BTW, BS, I'd opt for a real man instead of you any day.  Dyer would do
for a start, if I could get him to open his eyes.  I'm not much into men,
but at least I'd be mating within my species.  (Yes, I know it's not original.)

Lordy, Lordy; where do they _find_ these people?!  Get thee hence, thou
illegitimate spawn of Cl*yt*n.
---
-Wendy T., wondering why we bother
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan)
Subject: Re: Introduction
Organization: University of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07:45:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.154947.15537@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:
>
>"oh yeah?! Well, look at my BIG surf board!  you would have never DARED
>to have a surf board this big, you're just jealous."

Heck, big surfboards are _easy_ to ride, and not very maneuverable.
The little sporty models present much more of a challenge;  one is
much more apt to slip right off them.

--John

-- 
John Flanagan                          ||"Pretty boys
johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu           || with the sunshine faces
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.|| <mumble mumble>..."
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822    ||            -- My Bloody Valentine
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia & Allan Williams
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: 22 Aug 92 23:00:24 GMT

In <1992Aug22.025800.15115@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
>Funny; the ostracism for the original poster ("Too straight looking
>to be gay") pretty much makes a liar out of you, Al.

Don't call me "Al."

>Oh, horseshit, Al.  I am not a model for anyone.  

You can say that again.

And *don't* call me "Al."

--
 ________________ Alan Williams  vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu ___________________
 \/ A hypothetical paradox: What would happen in a battle between an         \/
    _Enterprise_ security team, who always get killed soon after appearing,
    and a squad of Imperial Stormtroopers, who can't hit the broad side of
    a planet?                 	--Tom Galloway
From: joelp@cs.man.ac.uk (Joel Parthemore || Pharos Project)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 19 Aug 92 09:11:07 GMT

twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

    >In article <#-7mta.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:

        >>In article <l8ohfjINN595@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu
        >>(adolphson) writes:

            >>>Fuck off.

        >>Getting fucked can be a lot of fun, but do you think it would be
        >>masculine enough for him?

    >As long as he can be on top.

While people are into discussing ``masculine'' and ``feminine'':  wasn't this
Adam's problem with Lilith (his first wife, by some accounts)?  That is, not
only did she insist on being at least his equal, she vexed him by always
taking the top position in sex....

I thought of responding to this guy, to tell him how much he seemed to be
using the tactics he accused his opponents of.  But no, others have done it
for me, well enough.

Joel,
     whose knowledge of Jewish mythology is pretty scant but who found
     Lilith intriguing

>____ Tim Pierce                / "Bisexual just means you pay for it."

Singing:  ``I may not be/ much of a man/ by the light of day;//
            But by night/ I'm one *hell* of a lover....''
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jon@Turing.ORG (Jon Gefaell (KD4CQY))
Subject: Re: GRANDPA WALTON: Is he gay?  Help please....
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 00:48:11 GMT

In article <l9558pINN5no@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

In fact, he was not only out, but in the book "The Trouble with Harry' a
biography of the Gay Activist Harry Hay, it is mentioned that he was at
one time the love interest of Harry.
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:30:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1992Aug20.183050.11740
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <BtAH8D.BL3@psych.toronto.edu> jarvis@psych.toronto.edu (Brian Jarvis) writes:
>Does anyone have handy the *exact* wording of the proposed amendment to
>the constitution of Colorado?

And for Oregon?  I don't have it, and there have been several postings and
e-mail messages asking about my "OR:9 Supporter Sighting" thread.  (Sorry
for not being more clear in my post; it's been such a common topic on the
net and in conversation that I forget that there are people who don't know
anything about it.)  Nelson, Michael, anyone else?  Thanks!

BB,

- Gretchen



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gretchen Klotz		      Computing Services
              klotz@lclark.edu			Lewis & Clark College
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: amz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky)
Subject: a queer card from the state of ohio
Followup-To: soc.motss
Summary: a day at ameriflora
Originator: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: osu / stanford  depts of lx
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:25:52 GMT

jacques and i went off the visit ameriflora (large flower exhibit in
columbus, already reviewed by others in this newsgroup) this morning,
me in my queerqueerqueer t-shirt (that's what it *says*).  (though
jacques doesn't own any gay-political t-shirts and probably wouldn't
wear one to ameriflora if he had any, he has no objection to my
wearing anything i please and is delighted to appear with me in
public in whatever costume i have chosen...sweet man.)

no apparent response to the shirt as we moved through the conservatory,
the living quilt (sponsored by the columbus aids task force), a
"polynesian" lunch, various commercial gardening exhibits, and
the smithsonian's "seeds of change" exhibit.

on the way home, jacques observed that we were about to pass the
closest motor vehicle registrar's office to our house (all the
way on the other side of the city from us!), and i remembered that
my driver's license was to expire in a couple more weeks, so
we stopped and i renewed my license.

this, of course, produced a new picture of me (not the most dreadful
yet, but disappointing in comparison to the last one, which i almost
*liked*), with the legend "queer queer queer queer" across the bottom.

so now i have a queer card, a *laminated* queer card even, from the
state of ohio.  no matter what i do here, you can't take that away
from me.  (apologies to ira gershwin.  shall we dance?)

arnold
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: a queer card from the state of ohio
Date: 20 Aug 1992 17:20:48 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <BtB3sD.Gs8@scd.hp.com> 
mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton) writes:
> Arnold M Zwicky (amz@cis.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
> > ... 
> > so now i have a queer card, a *laminated* queer card even ...

Since it's illegal in California to laminate a driver's license,
I would imagine the same holds true for queer cards.  Sorry, 
Arnold, but you'll have to reapply for the card once you're back
in Palo Alto.

[...]
> Back around 1973, I was working in a factory in Grinnell, Iowa, with a
> guy who had lived for a short time in Los Angeles.  He told me that,
> "Out there, queering's legal.  

I don't remember when the state Supreme Court ruled that the
sodomy laws were in violation of the state constitution, but it
wasn't much earlier than 1973 or '74, and I seem to recall it
was later than that.

>                                They got these little yellow cards, and
> if they show you that card, you can't hit 'em."  That's all I heard,
> and I'm wondering, was there an actual "queer card"?

If there was such a card, *I* never got one.  (Well, in 1973 I would
have been issued a queer learner's permit, even though there was 
very little I hadn't already learned.)  The only "queer cards"
I ever saw were membership cards to various baths.

Arne
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: St. Cole Porter (was Re: Homoerotic bible quotes?)
Date: 15 Aug 1992 23:53:13 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu
Keywords: paillettes, spangles, bugle beads, Ethel Merman

In article <l8r0oaINNcdk@mizar.usc.edu> 
adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

I did some checking and would like to take this
opportunity to correct a couple of errors:

>   When the crowds at El Morocco punish the parquet

Should be "While the crowds at El Morocco..."

While I'm at it, I might as well note that Cole Porter had
to change the lines:

    Why even the janitor's wife
    Has a perfectly good love life

to read

    Why even the janitor's wife
    Has some sentiment in her life

in order to get the music published.

> So they authorized new costume e fr her
> and she held out for the most expensive gown she could get.  
> (Ethel loved to twist the knife.)

Ethel claims that the gown (gold bugle beads) cost $1000.  That's
a lot of money for a dress (I think) in 1992.  _Red, Hot and Blue_,
however, was in *1936*.  The producers thought they'd get even with
her, though, by having a silly bustle sewn onto the back of the 
gown, so that when Ethel turned to leave the stage the audience would
laugh.  Ethel wouldn't stand for that -- if an audience was going
to laugh at her, she said, it would be when she was facing them, so 
she took a pair of scissors and cut the bustle off the dress.

Arne

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: psp@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (P.S. Powledge)
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Holmdel, NJ
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:36:24 GMT


Well, I for one am glad Bob brought this issue up. I, too, am embarrassed
by femme gays. Why the other night, I went out dancing with my girlfriend at
the bar, and I found myself *surrounded* by women wearing red lipstick, 
heels, and slinky black cocktail dresses.

I mean, yuck-o! I thought to myself, is this what it means to be homosexual? 
Will I have to give up my 4x4 and my 501s, and go worship at the altar of
some distorted homo-femme fetish in order to fit in with other homosexuals?

Frankly, I think the fear that you're going to have to start looking like
Madonna in order to fit in with "lipstick culture" keeps many normal butch 
gay women in the closet. After all, who wants to look like some depraved
sicko femme? (BTW, this is not a flame.)

Thanks, Bob, for bringing this important topic up.

-- 
				||| Polly Powledge
				||| Internet: P.S.Powledge@ATT.COM
				||| Uucp:     att!hrmso!psp
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: research on the gay male voice
Date: 22 Aug 92 16:30:34 GMT

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>Speaking of, these machines [NeXT] seem to have curried quite a lot
>of favor with fashion-following fags.  It's a very gay
>computer, I think.

It's just so sexy. We always go for that.

It runs a non-standard flavor of an OS, which it uses to express itself
in ways most comp-users find extravagant or a waste of resources, it is
built to communicate which it does in a style that is totally its own,
recognizable but different, there are a couple of things you can do
with it you can't do with another computer, people's first impressions
of it always fall into extremes, and it costs megabucks to buy it
peripherals that'll keep it happy.

Come to think of it, in a lot of ways, it's like having me on your
desk.
							FJ!!
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (JohnC)
Subject: Re: RNC: Buchanan's speech
Reply-To: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: The Royal Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:54:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.122134.11801@news.Hawaii.Edu> johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.035856.16336@spdcc.com> anon@spdcc.com (Forwarded Anonymous Posting) writes:
>>
>>        I just saw parts of Pat Buchanan's speech live at the Republican
>>Convention.  I couldn't stand to watch all of it.  He rambled on and on
>>about morals and such.  The most offensive thing he said was that Clinton
>>backed homosexuals, as if we are a bad disease.
>
>I didn't catch quite the entire speech, but it was incredibly
>hate-filled.  He mentioned "homosexuals" several times, and not behind
>any sort of "family values" euphemism, either.  He came right out and
>named the unnameable.  

I couldn't muster up the courage to submit to Buchanan's speech.  However, I
did catch one of the sound-bite exerpts on the local news, and a particular
passage struck me hard.  It went something like this (he was talking about
the Democratic Party convention):

	"Those Democrats, a bunch of far-left radical liberals masquerading
	as moderates and centerists, were engaged in the most blatant example
	of cross-dressing in history"

Buchanan smiled his horrifying Irish Catholic smile.  The audience roared
with laughter.  I felt like I was going to throw up.

-- 
  ______     John Cavallino - B0 f++ c+ g++ k s++ e+ h- pv
  \    /     queer person              
   \  /      EMail: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu
    \/       Talk requests: jcav@quads.chicago.edu