HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shannah@netcom.com (Teri Miller)
Subject: Re: hard water spots
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:29:56 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.205321.1106@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Sharen A. Rund) writes:
>In article <BxvEwJ.BtL@agps.lanl.gov> boggs@agps.lanl.gov (Marsha topgun/ne) writes:
>>
>>This may be a faq, but I don't read this newsgroup and I didn't see one
>>so here goes:
>>
>>	How do you get the hard water spots off vehicles?  We had a
>>	car that had them very bad and were never able to get them off.
>>	We now have a new surburban and had been drying is off after
>>	each washing, but didn't just once and now have water spots on
>>	the glass and of course paint.  So how does one remove them?
>>
>>I am cross-posting this to misc.consumers.house since I also have
>>hard water spots on my home's windows that also need removing and
>>there might be some help there.
>
>except for a number of bathroom cleaners that get water spots off
>galss doors I don't know what to tell you about your friends windows
>but, for your car - a good rubbing compound will remove the oxidization
>that builds up around wet spots on your car will get them out -
>the WAX Shop, Meguairs, etc sell things that can do this very nicely
>
I recommend that you read the labels very carefully - if you simply
purchase something called "rubbing compound" I think you will be pretty
unhappy with the results.  Polishing compound would be much better.
Rubbing compound is quite abrasive, and can take the clearcoat off
without too much trouble.

In terms of the glass, it depends a great deal on the glass.  If it's
very old glass (is it wavy?) or specially coated glass, you will want
to be extra careful with it.  On very old glass, you might try using
SoftScrub gently in an unobtrusive corner, and see if it scratches.  
If it doesn't, it might be the easiest way to get rid of the water
spots.  I've used it on shower doors: rub a thin layer on with a sponge,
let it sit for 2 to 5 minutes, then rub clean and rinse.  If it's
specially coated glass, I'd recommend getting the manufacturer's
advice.  For standard glass, the SoftScrub should do the job, or for
especially stubborn stains, you can try 00000 (or whatever the finest
is) steel wool *gently*.  You can scratch your windows with the steel
wool, so please use caution.

After you have removed the water spots, I recommend a good coat or two
of wax on the auto, and you might want to use some sort of glass wax on
the windows.

-- 
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
Teri Miller                    tmiller@cisco.com -or- shannah@netcom.com
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: ross@tarski.tmc.edu (David Ross)
Subject: Re: shoud there be two different licences
Organization: University of Hawaii Mathematics Department
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:07:43 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.013141.7090@wam.umd.edu> jailbird@next02wor.wam.umd.edu (serial killer) writes:
>Should we have a one licence to operate a manual transmisssion and one for  
>automatic

This is common outside the US (e.g., the U.K.); it is no  protection
against cretinous drivers.

- David


--
David Ross, Dept. of Math., Univ. of Hawaii at Manoa, Honolulu HI  96822
Internet: ross@math.hawaii.edu  -or- ross@tarski.math.hawaii.edu
Phone: 808-956-9949
From: lstowell@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: How do you spell relief?
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:49:56 GMT
Reply-To: lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corp., Mountain View, CA

>In article <BxtH82.Ix0@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> mshar@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Mike Mshar) writes:
>
>>Damned it, for the last time, its is spelled C-A-M-A-R-O   
>
In article <4186@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>	*I* thought it was spelled D-O-G
>
   
   Well, I thought it was spelled, S-E-X, but to each his own...>:-)
	^^^
From: jitloke@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Jit-Loke Lim)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Ford kicked my ass in court
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:50:34 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Nov18.220428.1174@ampex.com> davel@ampex.com (Dave Larkins) writes:
[rest of letter to Ford deleted for brevity]
>	I realize that I have very little power to demand a rebuttal of 
>these quality claims, but the avenues at my disposal are several. In 
>the near future, I intend to mail a copy of this letter to several large 
>newspapers, automobile magazines and TV stations, along with 
>posting it to a worldwide computer network that is accessed by 
>millions of potential Ford customers, in the hope that someone may 
>question the claims of your media campaign and re-evaluate their 
>purchasing decisions. I also require that you arrange for a reputable 

In light of this posting and several others, I have to ask the question:How
expensive can it be to give each unhappy customer a new car? 10K(cost) for
a Taurus? I'd think it'd be a lot cheaper than paying an attorney $x/hour
to fight your clients. I mean, after all, people buy Ford because they want to,
they CHOSE Ford over others. Plus it would provide all kinds of free publicity
like Saturn is getting instead of all this bad rap. That's gotta be worth
something. Ford makes a Quality is Job 1 car. They should easily be able to
back it up with a "guaranteed quality or a new car offer". Anyone who can afford
to buy a new Ford is probably not gonna buy a Ford and abuse this guarantee 
should it exist. Ford profits are not exactly remarkable and a guarantee like
that would sure calm buyer anxieties about quality and generate tons of 
publicity. But on the other hand, I understand next to nothing about marketing
and I sure as hell don't grasp legalese.


Jit
From: sheriffp@Software.Mitel.COM (Peter Sheriff)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: My new Saturn in the shop for new transmission
Keywords: Saturn reliability
Date: 19 Nov 92 19:46:51 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.


     There is an old saying in my country of origin, `One swallow does not
make it Spring'. In other words, one bad transmission does not mean that
the Saturn is a bad car. I am seriously considering one when I next need
a new car. I would have to have get a deal of a lifetime before I bought
a foreign car. I do all of my own repairs and I just couldn't afford the
cost of parts for anything other than a domestic auto. For those who might
say that I wouldn't need parts for these foreign cars, GET REAL.

                              Pete
From: erich.lim@cutting.hou.tx.us (Erich Lim) 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: GATORBACK TIRES
Date: 20 Nov 92 18:41:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Cutting Edge - Houston, TX - 713-466-1525
Reply-To: erich.lim@cutting.hou.tx.us (Erich Lim) 

-> I have 1 89 Probe GT with 15 inch rims and Gatorback tires (High
-> Speed).
-> I can't remember who makes them right now, but I thiink the Gatorback
-> name says enough.  I will probably end up having to put new tires on
-> it within this calendar year.  I understand that Gators are
-> expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!
->
-> Any suggestions for possible substitutions that won't cosr $250 a
-> piece??

  The Gatorback's are made by GOODYEAR..  I guess ya must have the VR
rated one's.. As for all high-performance low-profile tires, they will
all wear out in time and are expensive... Some other options besides the
Gatorback's are BF Goodrich Comp TA / Generation 3's,  Dunlop SP8000,
and Dunlop D40's...


Erich.
erich.lim@cutting.hou.tx.us
                              
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: awds_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Clarkkent)
Subject: Re: Gatorback tires
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 04:28:33 GMT

In <1992Nov19.224232.10640%jim.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu> mike%jim.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu (Mike S.) writes:


>>>I have 1 89 Probe GT with 15 inch rims and Gatorback tires (High Speed).

>>>Any suggestions for possible substitutions that won't cost $250 a piece??

>>  Dunlop D40M2.  Same or better grip in the dry, substantially better grip
>>  in the wet.  As miserable as the Goodyear Gatorback in the snow (but
>>  isn't that half the fun?), V or H rating (as I recall) available and
>>  about $150 each. 

>>	Herb "Mopar Maniac" DaSilva

>Anyone tried BFG Comp T/A VR4's?  I have heard good things about them,
>in wet, rain, and snow.  Not all that many bucks either.

>Mike


-Haven't tried them- yet, maybe when it comes time for a new set.  Pep
Boys in Rochester warrantees the tread life for 35k miles!  Better than
the 20k I'll be getting from my Gatorbacks!

Adam
awds_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
>-- 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: fengxi@prancer.eche.ualberta.ca (Fengxi Zhou)
Subject: Re: Raising the limit
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:50:45 GMT

I heard (so it could be wrong) that in Taiwan, one part of the driving test is
to accelertate to 100kph and slow down to 0 in a stright stretch of given
length, with with stick shift!  Now, if add another part, driving through a
snaky stretch at a no slower average speed than, say, 75kph (hey, this is just
driver's test.  Let's be nice), and emergency lane change at 110+ kph, 
then every one of us will come out as a "qualified" driver.  Oh, don't forget
every one (including your grandpa if he still drives) must pass this to 
re-register.  Every car must pass an annual mechanical test to ensure safety,
emmision, etc.  How is that?
BTW, one guy in a car mag suggested that there should be a new licence plate
system.  THe first letter indicates the driving skill and safety record.  "A"
platers are allowed to drive at >200kph, and "B" platers >150 but <200kph, etc.
Sounds neat, too.  Of course, annual re-registration is a must, then.
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech,rec.autos.antique,alt.autos.rod-n-custom,alt.autos.antique,rec.autos.sport
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Slartibartfast)
Subject: Re: SEMA Show (some comments)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:30:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.224518.18895@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Sharen A. Rund) writes:
>I was at the SEMA Show last week (there was about 19 miles of exhibitors
>and displays) - here's a few notes:
>
>- Chevy also had an XJ220 (219mph, 750K) - beautiful car
>
	Funny, Chevy showing off what amounts to a Ford.  New corporate
alliances here?


-- 
"The Clergy Dazzle us with Heaven or they Damn us into Hell"  Billy Bragg!!!!!
IIIII  L    L    IIIII NNNNN IIIII   Chintan Amin c-amin1@uiuc.edu DEPT of E.E.
  I    L    L      I   N   N   I   RUSH	YES FLOYD METALLICA PEARLJAM REM PG
IIIII  LLLL LLLL IIIII N   N IIIII   GO TARHEELS  GO CAPITALS GO COWBOYS 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: tedebear@leland.Stanford.EDU (Theodore Chen)
Subject: Re: Help! Ford service disaster!!!
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 08:39:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.231812.3289@EE.Stanford.EDU> sahul@loading-zone.Stanford.EDU (Zakir H. Sahul) writes:
>Another sad case of dealers making it difficult for anyone to buy an American
>car.  When will they ever shape up?  US carmakers already are facing an uphill
>battle against the Japanese and what do the damned dealers do?  They sh*t
>in the face of people who buy American.
>
>NEVER take your car for any type of service to this dealership again.  IT
>does not deserve to be in business.  Tell all your friends to not to go to this
>dealership!  Heck, tell all your enemies to not to go to this dealership.
>
>All in all, too many businesses don't give a hoot about the customer. 
>When will they make the connection between poor customer service and loss of
>market share?  Maybe, just maybe, people flock to Japanese car makers because the
>US makers mistreat their customers?  

i agree, he should never go back to this dealer again.  but that's
not unique to american cars.  i took a lot of crap from my acura dealer
before i gave up in disgust and went to another acura dealer who has
been absolutely great.  and another netter has posted several times
about the problems he's been having with his mitsubishi diamante and
his dealer.

scummy dealers are everywhere.
-teddy
From: sam@john-bigboote.ics.uci.edu (Sam Horrocks)
Subject: Re: Fast Japanese Sports Cars
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Organization: UC Irvine Department of ICS
Date: 23 Nov 92 00:19:23 GMT

In <74435@apple.apple.COM> chmilar@Apple.COM (Michael Chmilar) writes:

>3000 VR-4:  Ugly, ugly, and ugly.  Did I forget to mention:  it is U-G-L-Y?
>            It gets my vote for grossest car of the '90's.  Whoever did the
>            styling on this thing should be killed.

You obviously have bad taste.  The 300GT brings an exotic style to an
affordable car.  Do you think the Viper or Countach are ugly just
because they have unusual "styling"?  I think Mitsubishi should be
given lots of credit for making an interesting car instead of something
like the (ho-hum) 300ZX.

>RX-7:       Brutal.  Some of the light weight is acheived by flimsy
>            construction.  Check out:  Entire interior, door latches, inside
>            of the wheel wells.  This is a $34,000 car?  If you drive on
>            rough roads, make sure your health insurance covers rehabilitating
>            bruised kidneys.  Looks nice and aggressive, but the R1 has
>            that cheesy, ugly spoiler.  With the combo of stiff suspension
>            and flimsy construction, it may well shake itself to pieces in
>            a few years.  These cars are not selling well, so you can
>            probably name your price for one.

The RX-7 makes an attempt at something interesting, but ends up looking
more like a Miata than anything else.  Also, it's way too small.

>300ZX:      Refined.  Elegant.  Best styling job that Japanese designers
>            have ever done.  Also, goes like stink, and handles well.  Best
>            interior too.  Control placement is nearly perfect, and quality
>            is high.

This has to be the dullest looking sports car of the 90's.  Nissan
didn't have to spend much time thinking about the styling for this one --
there's nothing interesting in it.  The looks of this car are nothing
new, nothing exotic, just the Same Old Thing.  I guess that makes some
people happy, but I'd rather have car makers come up with more
interesting designs rather than try to keep from offending people with
pedestrian tastes.
--
Sam Horrocks
ICS Department, UC Irvine
Email: sam@ics.uci.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Mazda 626 (was G20 vs Altima)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:36:29 GMT

In article <lh2lq1INNa9q@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:

>As you can see, the Mazda has as much legroom as the Camry, somewhat
>less trunk space, but gets much better gas mileage.
>
>	Infnti	Mazda	Honda	Toyota	Volvo	Saab	Chry
>	G20	626	Accord	Camry	850	9000	LH***
>	-----	-----	-----	-----	-----	-----	-----
>eng	2.0	1.991	2.156*	2.164	2.4	2.3	3.3**
>len	174.8	184.4	185.2	187.8	183.5	188.2	201.7
>wid	66.7	68.9	67.1	69.7	69.3	69.4	74.4
>turn	35.4	35.4	36.1	35.4	33.5	35.8	37.6
>front	42.0	43.5	42.6	43.5	44.0	41.5	42.3
>rear	33.2	37.8	34.3	35.0	38.0	38.8	38.7
>trunk	14.2	14.2	14.4	14.9	14.7	17.8	16.7
>wgt	2745	2672	2778	2943	3148	3110	3335
>Cd	.30	.31	.33	?	.32	?	.31
>HP	140	118	125	125	168	150	153
>torq	132	127	137	145	162	157	177
>EPA	24/32	26/34	24/31	22/29	22/30	19/26	20/28
>ABS	std	opt	bad	opt	std	std	opt
>
>* SOHC, most others are DOHC
>** pushrod V6, all others are OHC
>*** manual transmission not available
>
Unless Toyota changed somethign recently, I believe the  Camry has 130hp not
125 hp.

Perhaps the Mazda has better gas mileage, but is also has
a weaker engine. Alkso, you can get a cd player with the Camry. I
think there is a multiple one available.

What does the V6 Mazda have?
in terms of power and mileage

john
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __	
jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
From: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Street Sleepere
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:48:20 GMT
Reply-To: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.  Engineering

In article <1992Nov20.112302.6476@gw.wmich.edu>, 854mesik@gw.wmich.edu writes:
> 	Everyone is writing about how an SHO Tauras wagon
> would be great. It would be cool, but how about this?
> 1992 300 hp LT-1 350 in a Caprice Wagon? It would be a sure
> headturner to see that leave you behind in a puff of smoke eh?


Back in the old days(?!) my parents had a 1969 (new) Buick
LeSabre -- about the ugliest most non-descript car I can think
of, with a 350 ci vette engine and Turbo-hydramatic 400 in it.

It went like -- well I can't say that here.  What a surprise that
was for a few people.  Of course I was a better driver in those
days being immortal and all...


Tom Pickett 
tpickett@auspex.com or 74616.2237@compuserve.com
SHO  GOZE
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: alter@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Eric Alter)
Subject: Re: Japanese Full Size Trucks
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 02:47:28 GMT
Reply-To: alter@rchland.vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester Mn

In article <1992Nov21.162829.26959@nosc.mil>, koziarz@halibut.nosc.mil (Walter A. Koziarz) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov20.142912.38332@watson.ibm.com> born@vnet.ibm.com writes:
|> >Has anyone seen the commercial advertising the new full-size truck
|> >made by Toyota? (I believe it was Toyota.)  I've read in the past that
|> >this is a VERY profitable market segment for the U.S. manufacturers.
|> >It will be very interesting to see how they (Ford, GM, Chrysler) respond 
|> >to this new entry.
|> 
|> Nope, didn't see the commercial yet, but I have read the reviews in
|> 'Automobile', 'Four Wheeler', 'Four Wheel and Off Road',... as well as the
|> advertisements from Toyota.  All I can say is this thing is an even bigger joke
|> than I had expected it to be, sure, it'll likely sell reasonably well to the
|> brain-damaged Toyota-worshippers... until they try to load it down like it was
|> a real truck...  You see, this foolish thing is built on the *same* frame and
|> running gear as the micro-'truck'.  The consequnces of this fact are readily
|> apparent to anyone with any truck-savy and will become evident to the
|> brain-damaged-buyers of this thing...
|> 
|> The 'T-100' will be the best thing that ever happened to domestic truck
|> builders because of it flaws...  It continues in the 'it-looks-like-it's-
|> a-truck-but-don't-put-a-load-on-it' pattern of all the micro-'trucks'.
|> 
|> Walt K.
|> 
|> p.s. -- predicted msrp's are in the $25000-range...  P.T. Barnum described any
|> potential buyers of the Toyota T-100 quite well...


Wow, and I wrote so much and it could have been expressed in so few words...
-- 

Eric Alter		alter@rchland.vnet.ibm.com
IBM Corporation		Rochester, Mn
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: lstowell@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Survey impartiality (was Re: Profits to Japan?)
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:12:13 GMT
Reply-To: lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corp., Mountain View, CA

In article <2400065@hpsad.sad.hp.com> frankb@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Frank Ball) writes:
>
>Perhaps there is another explanation for why people think Japanese cars
>are better quality than american cars.  Perhaps it is because when there
>is a problem with a japanese car it gets fixed-quickly and freely under
>warranty, while the american car doesn't.  
>
    Perhaps it is because when people used to complain about
    Japanese cars, the Japanese brought in the engineers.  When
    people complain about American cars (or just about any other
    American product) the Americans bring in the PR flakes and the
    lawyers....darned few of them bring in the engineers.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: norcott_bill@tandem.com (Bill Norcott)
Subject: Re: Are new cars typically blemished?
Reply-To: norcott_bill@tandem.com (Bill Norcott)
Organization: Tandem Computers, Inc.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:40:43 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.002438.28858@riacs.edu>, ben@neti.arc.nasa.gov (Ben Chang) writes:
|> 
|> The car is a '93 Toyota Corolla wagon.

Since you already took delivery of the car I doubt that you can stop
payment on it, but check the laws for your state.  That is, once you
accept the car the deal is done in most states.  I assume it has the
clear coat paint?  If it is just a surface defect the dealer may be
able to polish it out so you are satisfied.  Whatever you do, get a
written work order for it to document that it was damaged and that
you brought it back as soon you noticed it.  This will be useful just
in case your state has a lemon law and they can't fix it within 3
tries, etc.  If they have to repaint it in the dealer's body shop it
is not going to look as good as the factory clear coat paint.  But if
they do paint it, make sure they do the whole car not just the spot or
you will really notice it.  It is probably better to polish out the
bad spot if possible.  I hope they take care of your complaint.  I 
doubt they will give you another one.  Only Saturn does that.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------|
Bill Norcott			GUARDIAN POSIX project
Tandem Computers, Inc.		
10600 N. Tantau Avenue		PHONE:  (408) 285-3253
Cupertino, CA   95014		EMAIL: norcott_bill@tandem.com


Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: tuttle@pine.circa.ufl.edu (Dan Tuttle)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Breaking in a new car
Keywords: Ford Probe
Date: 23 Nov 92 00:11:00 GMT
Reply-To: tuttle@pine.circa.ufl.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: Univ. of FL - Dept. of Anatomy and Cell Biology
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

I purchased a 1993 Ford Probe one month ago and I think it is a great 
car!  The only recommendation Ford recommends regarding breaking in 
the engine is to vary the speed frequently for the 1st 1000 miles.  
Since the also recommend changing the oil and filter every 7500 miles 
(which I consider to be much too long of an interval), I am concerned 
about the break-in recommendation.

I have 3 questions about this break-in procedure: 
1) Is 1000 thousand miles long enough or would the engine benefit 
significantly by a longer break-in period?
2) How frequent should "frequent" speed changes be?
3) Why is it important for the speed of a new engine to be changed 
frequently?

I hope someone can reply to these questions--and I'm sure someone will 
because I've been very impressed with some of the other discussions 
I've been seeing in this group. 

Thanks--Dan Tuttle
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: CONSUMER REPORTS
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:12:19 GMT

In article <BxyBLA.JCz@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Slartibartfast) writes:
>In article <1992Nov19.045508.9013@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen) writes (in defense of the indefensible...):
>>
>>Oddly enough, they like the Grand Cherokee more than the
>>other SUV's even the Japanese!
>>
>	That's because it is head and shoulders above the rest, and it would
>be highway robbery to decide in favor the the dated Pathfinder and 4Runner. 
>The _one_ that does come close (besides the Explorer, obviously) is the new
>Trooper.  Helluva truck.

The new Toyota Landcrusier with 212 hp, 275 ft-lb of torque may offer
competetion, but I haven't seen much on it yet.

john
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __	
jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \