HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bernard@tourng.enet.dec.com (Dave Bernard)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Billy Graham carrying message from the Pope
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:32:46 GMT
Reply-To: bernard@tourng.enet.dec.com (Dave Bernard)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <Apr.9.04.06.10.1992.16777@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>,
dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson) writes:

|> There were many followers of the true faith that had nothing to do with
|> the Roman Church.  Quoting from The Trail of Blood by J. M. Carroll
|> " Let it be definitely remembered that when Constatine made his call for
|> the council, there were very many Christians (Baptists) and of the churches,
|> which declined to respond.  They wanted no marriage with the state, and no
|> centralized religious government, and no higher ecclesiastical government
|> of any kind, than the individual church.  These Christians (Baptists)
|> nor the churches ever at that time or later, entered the hierarchy of the
|> Catholic denomination."

|> The hand of persecution from the Roman Church fell upon the Paulicians,
|> Arnoldists, Henricians, Petro Brussians, Albigenses, Waldenses and Ana-
|> Baptists (among others).  It is estimated that 50 million people died
|> of persecution at the hands of the RCC during the Dark Ages.
|> 

	The quoted author, Carroll, is either somewhat deficient in his historical
	knowledge, or else intentionally revising history (I'm being mild
	in this).  Albigensianism or the Waldenses or Anabatists, for example, 
	did not exist until many centuries after Constantine.  

	There have always been splinter sects, but to suggest that the
	Baptists of today have any sort of unbroken lineage to pre-
	Nicean groups- or for that matter, with Albigensians of 800
	years afterward, is historically without merit.  Does he know the
	beliefs of the Albigensians- of their absolute denial of marriage,
	or their, in-effect, ritual suicide through self-starvation?

	50 million people!  Even the Spanish Inquisition, by modern 
	secular estimates, over its centuries of existence, only counted
	maybe 3,000 executions.  In the "Dark Ages," when the Plague
	wiped out 1/3 to 1/2 of the population, there were maybe only
	a handful of million people alive in Europe at all!

	I believe there were enough bad Catholics doing things all through
	history to sufficiently point to their human frailty and sinful
	nature, without having to create a false history.

		Dave
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Sin
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:07:47 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

gotzel@triton.unm.edu (Paul Gotzel) writes:

>Could someone please give me a definition of sin?

How about "any act that separates us from God?" Fancier phrases are
possible, but I think at root they all come down to that.
--
These are only my opinions.  You should hear my convictions.
smayo@wang.com
From: vm0h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent J. Matsko)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Thorn in the flesh
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:55:32 GMT

I have heard that there is a book published (or soon to be) about this
topic.  Is anyone aware of the title and author?

Also, Joel, do you have any references which support the ideas you
presented?  I'd be interested in looking at them.

Vince Matsko
From: portland!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: 2 Corinthians
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:06:42 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <Apr.6.01.01.09.1992.20557@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> tas@pegasus.com (Len Howard) writes:
>The Jerusalem bible translation of 2 Cor 6:14 is "Do not harness
>yourselves in an uneven team with unbelievers.  Virtue is no compaion
>for crime.  Light and darkness have nothing in common."

Paul possibly had Deuteronomy 22:10 in mind, "You shall not plow with an ox
and donkey together."  To anyone familiar with farming, it seems pretty
strange that God would have to tell the Israelites not to do this, since,
practically speaking, it would be almost impossible to plow with an ox and
donkey yoked together.  They just don't make a good team.

God was using the Torah to instruct the Israelites in the importance of
religious separation from the surrounding nations.  An ox was a clean,
domestic animal, suitable for sacrifice in the Temple of God.  A donkey was
not suitable as a sacrifice to God.  God was instructing the Israelites,
the nation of priests, that they were to remain apart from the surrounding
pagan nations.  They were not to defile themselves with the practices of
the gentiles.

Since Christians are the new covenant nation of priests, it makes sense
that we should also be careful not to become defiled with the practices of
pagans.  Just as Israel was divided nationally from the idol-worshippers in
Canaan, Christians need to be separated from the pagan tendencies of the
world.


-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: cree@elec.canterbury.ac.nz
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: RE: Why we suffer.
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:30:57 GMT

>  God is not capable of doing evil.   

So, God is not omnipotent then?

This seems to me be a basic contradiction of logic.  Either God is
omnipotent and _can_ do evil, or God cannot do any evil and therefore is
not omnipotent. But, maybe I have a wrong definition of omnipotence. Let's
redifine omnipotence to being 'able to do what God can do' - then there is
no conflict.  We have invented a useless definition of omnipotence.
For I could say, let omnipotence be defined as 'being able to do what
Michael Cree can do,' and wow, suddenly I'm omnipotent!!! (bow, autographs
later please).

It is my opinion (whatever it is worth) that God is omnipotent (using the
conventional definition) and therefore is capable of doing evil. Bit
freaky, eh? However, God promises to do what is good and that he is
faithful. Do you trust Him to do so?

Michael Cree
cree@elec.canterbury.ac.nz
From: pjm@isis.cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Arana
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:26:28 GMT
Organization: Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory

I've been trying to learn more about Yoga. Patanjali's Yoga Sutra is
excellent (i have Feuerstein's translation) and has been very
educational. Moreover, it has helped me understand and appreciate
the Kosa (in particular Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa). If you
want to study Classical Yoga and stay within the Buddhist schools,
i would _highly_ recommend the Abhidharmakosa. It contains chapters on 
the Dhatus (skandhas, ayatanas), Indriyas (mental factors,
causes and conditions), Samsara, Karma, Defilements, the Path,
the Knowledges, and the Absorptions. It's big, 4 volumes,
each chapter is half of a book. 
Here's a little teaching on samadhi from Vasubandhu
which i find very inspiring.

Samadhi Absence of Contention (Arana)
Arana is the power to hinder the arising of another's defilements.
The Arhats know that the sufferings of beings are produced
through their defilements; they know that they themselves
are the most worthy field of merit; they fear that others
might generate defilements with respect to them [which
would be particularly injurious]; thus they
generate a knowledge of such a nature that no other
person will produce, with respect to them, lust, hatred,
pride, etc. This knowledge puts an end, in beings, to
rana, or contention, which is a defilement, a cause
of torment: it is thus called arana or absense of
contention...

it's been amusing to watch my mind fight with understanding
this fundamental source of holiness.  so stop "fighting it"
everyone and cultivate Arana...let's see, it's conventional
knowledge, in the sphere of the Fourth Dhyana, produced
by a person who is Immovable.

see ya!
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: "Marc Wachowitz"  <75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de>
Subject:  Re: Building up ego with answers to questions?
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 10:30:22 GMT

Toshi Takeuchi <tt@wag.caltech.edu> wrote:
> First of all, why should anyone care if you attained such and such a state.
Why should you care why somebody else cares, or why not?
Why _generally_ prefer one thing to some other?
[Not speeking of personal taste etc. - but I'm serious with the questions!]

> --Comparison of experience is fine, to see if you are following the road map,
>   but saying that you are at a certain stage may really be fooling yourself.
Perhaps assuming there is a road map may as well be fooling yourself :-)

> P.S. We all do this.  At least I do.
> I'm sure not perfect...
Do you really know what perfection is?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Wachowitz                               75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
   *   wonder everyday   *   nothing in particular   *   all is special   *

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: mindfulness, some exercises
Summary: some exercises to see how mindful you really are!
Keywords: insight,exercises
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:09:55 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA

Well, I've been sidetracked a little bit from actual practices in order
to give a little theory.  

I'll get back to some practices and get away from chakras for the moment.

--------

Okay, I got these exercises from:

Seeking the Heart of Wisdom,
by Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield,
Shambala Publications, Boston
1987
ISBN 0-87773-327-9 $10.95

I've only read a bit of this book, but I like several things in it.

The exercise I give today centers around right speech in the Eightfold path
from page 9:
   
       Don't lie, it (Eightfold path) says.  Speak only what is true
       and useful; speak wisely, responsibly, and appropriately...
       Be aware of how we actually use the energy of our words.
       We spend so much or our lives talking and analyzing and 
       discussing and gossiping and planning...We can align our 
       speech to the principles of what is truthful and what is most
       kind or helpful.

------

Exercises:

In the book they talk about conscious conduct and examining your actions.

We do so many things without thinking.  I'll start today with having
mindfulness about false speech.

>From page 13-14:

---Refraining from false speech: speech from the heart.  Undertake
for one week not to gossip (positively or negatively) or speak
about anyone you know who is not present with you (any third party).

-----

Comments:

I've started to try this and boy is this tough for me!  I started out okay
yesterday, but then I quickly forgot and I counted at least 8 times
when I forgot about the exercise.  Already today I've forgotten once. 

It is easy to continue to do things when you don't realize you are
doing it.

If you are aware of your actions, then you can make conscious decisions about
them.

I'm not saying gossiping is bad, I'm just saying are you aware that you are
doing it?  Could you be spending your time being more helpful, caring, or
loving rather than gossiping?

I think I could, but I have alot of work to do!

-----

I hope this helps,

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Subject: Re: Questions
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 17:00:02 GMT

> 1) If someone asked you, What is enlightenment?, what would you tell them? 

Answer: "                                                               "


> 2) If someone asked you how they might practically go about discovering
>    such a realization for themselves, what advice would you give them?  

Answer:	Seek the source of mind. Look within and find the answer to the
                                 question: Who am I?
	
	[the answer depends upon the questioner].


	> 3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual 
>    understanding or realization, what would be your answer?  
> 

Answer: "                    "
        or the same as yours
        or the same as any one else
        or why worry about me, find out about yours
        or there is no realization - that is the realization
        or Moo
	or this coffee is cold
	or the buddha on the road
	or hit you on the head
	or bite the tounge
	or ......
	
	
> Thanks.

	Thank the "grace" working within yourself that prompts you to
	                                         ask these questions.
	
	
	[Believe you me --- the answer is within you, and nowhere else].
	
	[So uncover your Self --- the same as discover your Self]
	
	
---raj


	[PS. I believe you are the same person whose articles
	     in talk.religion.misc I enjoyed for a good number
	     of years, (before I quit reading it about a year ago).
	     I didn't post to the netnews then, so even when
	     I wanted to write you to thank you for your inspiring
	     articles, I didn't. So thanks for all the help you
	     provided to me (although unknown by you)]

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions on Experience
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:40:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: iitmax.1992Apr14.214001.13352
Organization: AT&T


> 1. What form of meditation do you utilize?



	After "experimenting" with a lot of "techniques," have come to see
	that meditation is not a technique.
	
	[if interested in methods, several are described in several books;
	 one can choose what suits one's natural inclinations]
	


> 2. What is your actual experience in meditation? 



	Having had so-called "experiences," have come to see that
	"focussing" on "experiences" is a hinderance.
	
	And describing them is not helpful [all experiences are in
	    the mind only].
	


> 3. How would you describe your experiences in relation to what you 
>    consider to be a fully enlightened state?



	See above. The fully-enlightened "state" has "NOTHING to do" with
	           the mind in which all experiences take place.



> 4. If you feel your current experience does not match your vision of full
>    enlightenment, how do you account for this? 
	
	

	If the only goal is to "match" the "already known" "vision" of
	enlightenment, then "the train is already derailed."
	
	

>      	A. You have not found right kind of meditation to bring you
>            to the goal


	
	The "judge" is the "culprit" also.



>  	B. You have found the right meditation, but you are still
>            learning how to apply it, or perhaps you are not applying
>            it in the best way



	The "thief" is the "policeman."
	


> 	C. You have the right meditation and you are applying it correctly,
>            but it's just going to take time to reach the goal


 

	What is Here is Now has NOTHING to do with time.
	
	
	
>         D. You haven't found the right teacher



	The real teacher is WITHIN [and IS HERE AND NOW].
	
	

> 	E. You don't have any real experience with meditation, but you like
>            to read books and pursue spirituality as an intellectual hobby 



	Does not matter what other has or has not.



> 5. Honestly assessing your responses above, and in the light of your current
>    level of experience and understanding, do you think you will realize
>    enlightenment? If so, when? 



	Again, ENLIGHTENMENT is HERE and NOW [and not then and there].
	
	
---raj
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions on Experience
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:19:48 GMT
Organization: AT&T


Jim writes:

> WHY DO YOU WANT TO KNOW?  OF WHAT USE IS THIS INFORMATION?

	
	Is the burden of knowledge already being carried not enough
	   to break one's back? Why does one want to add to it?
	
	
	It was said by Ramana that:
	
	
		"What is learned has to be forgotten one day."
		
		
		"There are two kinds of ignorance: one - unlearned, and
		                             the other - LEARNED."
		
	
---raj
From: sre@steve.iit.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Soc.Religion.Eastern Charter & Posting Guidelines
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:15:18 GMT
Organization: soc.religion.eastern

This is a monthly general information post.  Please read this if
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Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Questions?
Organization: ----
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 03:24:13 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.213626.19123@iitmax.iit.edu> johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler) writes:

>1) If someone asked you, What is enlightenment?, what would you tell them? 

The word is defined in the dictionary. 
It means the state of seeing the light.

>2) If someone asked you how they might practically go about discovering
>   such a realization for themselves, what advice would you give them?  

Nurture and listen to the inner voice.
Study the Eastern and Western philosophical classics.
Joseph Campbell said, "Follow your bliss"
Buddha said, "All things are Buddha things"

>3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual 
>   understanding or realization, what would be your answer?  

If I answered this question, how could I be enlightened? 
The best have all been humbled. I am not as enlightened as the best.
Does that answer mean I am not enlightened?
From: farris@physics.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Subject: RE: More questions from John Wheeler
Organization: ----
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 23:42:23 GMT


> 1. What do you mean by the word "ego"?

I think of EGO as that which is constantly referring to, measuring,
acting on, perceived reality.  That which works to feed, cloth, and 
shelter my body, and keep it out of danger.  That which is concerned
with who can help me or harm me.  That which has emotional needs for
love and support, on a day to day level, and which needs to give
love and support to function optimally.
It is a robot, with its intricate programming built up over a
lifetime of experiences.  It is the means by which whatever it is
that lies behind the robot interacts with this world.  I am
aware, sometimes more than others, that while this EGO is an integral
part of me, it is not ME, anymore than the clothes I wear.

> 2. How do you personally experience your ego?

I just try to step back, mentally, from my thoughts and emotions.
Try to see as well as I can my instincts and conditioned responses,
and remember that my thoughts should be as changeble as a hat.
I try to see the responses of others to the world around them, compare
their responses to mine, and just think about it.
For me it boils down to just being aware.

> 3. Do you use meditation to overcome your ego?

I don't like that language.  I would rather think of working with
my ego, giving it what it needs to function efficiently.  Get out
all the bugs in the programming, and stop working at odds with 
myself.  To that end, I think meditation helps.  It helps me to
get focused, and to get around some of my cognitive-perceptual
filters. It helps me to take a step back and see from outside the
ego, for a little bit.

> 4. To what degree has meditation helped you be free of your ego?

I don't want to be free of it.  If I may use the metaphor of a
car, in which I am touring about the landscape of this life, I
need it, if I am going to enjoy the experiences that are only
available to me in this physical life.  But I don't want to be
distracted from the tour by a noisy muffler, or a dirty windshield,
or frequent overheating.

This is all just the model that makes me happiest right know, and
seems to work all right, until I find one that I like better.

				-Lorenzo Farris
---
farris@physics.rutgers.edu

"'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds." 
			-Principia Discordia (I think)
---