From: magnum@cs.umd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 01:04:48 GMT



			How am I doing?

I hope you will pardon an interruption of normal technical discussion in
rec.guns for a brief bit of introspection about the group itself.  This has
been precipitated by Mr. Ben Klausner, who calls for rec.guns to become an
unmoderated group.  Mr. Klausner has been a persistent critic in the past
(my only one, as a matter of fact, at least the only one telling me this.)
Previously I responded to him individually (as you will see below.)   But
he has been sufficiently persistent that I am reminded how net news is truly
about as open a democratic forum as we can find in America today, and as such
it is appropriate to occasionally air things out.   How is the group doing?
Do you want more of the same?  Do you want something different?  I respect
the system, and offer to step down if you like.  I am not saying I *want*
to do this ... on the contrary, I enjoy this, even if it is a time sink, and
I view it as yet another way to serve our broader community.  But we should
let the readership decide.

One thing is very clear to me, however: the readership gets downright feisty
if we spend too much time away from technical 'stuff'.  So I propose that we
not dwell on this exhaustively for weeks.  Let us spend a week sorting things
out, and then resolve to either move to some new format or drop the matter.
If something official seems warranted w.r.t. netnews protocols, then we should
follow the usual conventions as informally governed by the moderators forum.

I took over on 7 November, 1990, and had the benefit of a marvelous "transition
team", that is, Sean, our prior moderator, helped me immensely (and has since
made all *his* archives available for me to distribute on my server too!)  The
options I see available to us are...
 -- remain as is.
 -- discover or elect a new moderator.
 -- un-moderate the group, as Mr. Klausner has requested.
 -- suggest that an alt group be created, splitting us into moderated
    and unmoderated forums.

The rest of this post contains the following items:
1. My mail log documenting Mr. Klausner's complaints about my behavior.
2. Our charter, as it stands.
3. Some examples of how I have "censored", or at least handled, certain
   classes of posts over the years.

You got what you want, Ben.  May God bless the democratic process from here.

With respect,

MODERATOR
rec.guns

(a.k.a.  Professor James M. Purtilo
	 Computer Science Department and
		Institute for Advanced Computer Studies
	 University of Maryland
	 College Park, MD 20742
	 Internet:	purtilo@cs.umd.edu
	 ATT:		301 405 2706
	 Spoken:	Jim
)
==============================================================================

I.  MAIL LOG OF TRANSACTIONS WITH BEN KLAUSNER

The mail that arrived today is ....

  From:        mailrus!gatech!unmvax!bbx!yenta!ben@uunet.UU.NET (Ben Klausner)
  Subject:        Call to Unmoderate rec.guns
  Organization:   Department of Redundancy Department
  Message-Id:     <1992Nov12.214838.5181@yenta.alb.nm.us>
  
  I am fed up with the moderator abusing his position to insert editorial
  comments into postings. If he wants to make a comment, let him post it, like
  anyone else.
  
  I have exchanged a few notes with the nameless moderator, and he seems to
  think that everyone here loves his style and wit.
  
  If he allows this not to be posted, I would very much like some discussion
  on unmoderating this group. Why does it need to be censored anyway?
  
  -- 
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    inet: ben@yenta.alb.nm.us                    | My opinions are my own.
    CI$:  76337,1730                             | Who else would want them?
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My mail with him since last October follows for perspective....
  
  From: mailrus!gatech!unmvax!bbx!yenta!ben@uunet.UU.NET (Ben Klausner)
  Subject: Re: What does Magnum mean?
  Organization: Department of Redundancy Department
  References: <9209301808.AA07100@dvorak.amd.com>
  Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 14:45:48 GMT
  
  >
  stuff deleted
  >
  
  >[MODERATOR:  And all this time I thought we were discussing my mail alias...]
  
  Mr. Moderator: This is about the last straw. I have serious objections to
  your abusing your position to editorialize postings! In no other group I
  follow have I EVER seen an intrusion from a moderator. If you must make cute
  comments, post them as a follow up, like anyone else.
  
  -- 
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    inet: ben@yenta.alb.nm.us                    | My opinions are my own.
    CI$:  76337,1730                             | Who else would want them?
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  
  Date: Sat, 3 Oct 92 22:16:39 MDT
  Message-Id: <9210032216.AA04028@yenta.alb.nm.us>
  From: gatech!unmvax!bbx!yenta!ben@cs.widener.edu (Ben Klausner)
  
  >
  >Gee, I'm sorry you feel this way.  Yours is the first comment like this
  >we've heard in, I think, the couple years we have rec.guns on record, so
  >I hope this is a sign that there is no general discontent.  Since I get
  >much mail encouraging the opposite view instead, I hope you understand
  >that I intend to continue the practice.  Thanks for your feedback,
  >
  If you are that confidant that the bulk of readers condone this practice,
  how about letting me ask the question publicly?
  
  
  From: magnum (News Moderator)
  Message-Id: <9210050216.AA04968@xring.cs.UMD.EDU>
  To: gatech!unmvax!bbx!yenta!ben@cs.widener.edu
  Subject: Re: Editorials
  
  I'm very happy to bring a question to the readership when it is likely to be
  relevent to a reasonable subset of readers.  I see this as one of my jobs, and
  I hope you've noticed that I have done exactly this on other issues.
  
  Another of my jobs is to conserve on net bandwidth, and hence to filter out
  truly irrelevent posts, redirect some discussion topics elsewhere, and allow
  readers to enjoy the improved signal to noise ratio promised by a moderated
  news group.  Therefore I hope you will understand it is in this role that I
  choose not to gate your post to rec.guns.  A single disgruntled reader is not
  sufficient reason for me to clog up the net.  I hope you can deal with this.
  
  I appreciate that it is in a sense `signal to noise ratio' that caused you
  to post in the first place.  Because I have overwhelmingly positive feedback
  telling me that this is what keeps the group civil and moving along, I am
  very unlikely to change the practice in the near future; I consider the matter
  closed.
  
  MODERATOR
  rec.guns
  
  Subject: Re: Editorials
  To: magnum@cs.UMD.EDU  (News Moderator)
  Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 10:05:36 MDT
  Message-Id: <9210051005.AA20322@yenta.alb.nm.us>
  From: gatech!unmvax!bbx!yenta!ben@cs.widener.edu (Ben Klausner)
  
  About what I expected. I think you are grossly mistaken, but you obviously
  don't want to listen to anything you don't like.
 
============================================================================== 

II. OUR CURRENT CHARTER


Subject: charter for rec.guns

CHARTER

The charter of rec.guns is:

  1.  To discuss shooting sports, reloading and other recreational
      activities involving firearms.

  2.  To discuss training and safety information involving firearms.

  3.  To discuss home and personal defense involving firearms.

  4.  To discuss other types of weaponry, such as bows and knives.

  5.  To announce firearms and accessories to buy/sell/trade.
      Non-commercial only, please.

  6.  To discuss laws pertaining to firearms ownership and use.

  7.  To carry information and announcements concerning political and
      legislative activities.  The focus here is on information, not debate
      or interpretation, which is the primary forus of other newsgroups.
      Politically sensitive articles are best kept short and to the point
      with a minimum of rhetoric.  For example,

	   "Congress will vote on a bill to ban all firearm sales in the
	   United States, retroactive to last year.  This could be very
	   inconvenient.  It's bill #666, please call your congressdroid."

  8.  To carry new-product annoucements, product reviews, safety alerts
      and other consumer services of interest to firearm owners.


BRIEF GUIDE TO POSTING

If the focus of an article is 		... then we might suggest you post
more oriented to ....			it over in ...

  politics/legislation debate		talk.politics.guns
  hunting				rec.hunting
  guns you can't tote yourself		sci.military
  misc other weapons			rec.martial-arts
  explosives/bombs			rec.pyrotechnics
  paintball				alt.sport.paintball
  jokes					rec.humor
  picture files				alt.binaries.pictures.misc
  sound files				alt.binaries.sounds.misc
  interesting programs			comp.sources


MODERATION

My goal is to moderate in moderation, that is, unintrusively.  I hope to
post anything that falls within the charter of the group.  On occasion, I
will touch up the headers, formatting and "included" text of articles, but
prefer to avoid extensive hacking of the text.  On rarer occasions, I will
ask the poster to shorten an article that would be inconveniently long for
the forum; in such a case, I would suggest the poster send a short note to
announce where on the net a reader could find the main text body.  One of
the benefits of being moderator is of course that I get first crack at wise
cracks, so on what I hope are innocent occasions I may insert some piece of
direction, guidance, witicism or wisdom; in such a case, I always label my
contribution as MODERATOR.

The software I have written to assist in processing messages will excise
almost all but the essential NNTP fields; this is to keep things uniform for
the world and sane for me.  Apologies if you miss seeing your own favorite
frivolous field in the headers.

I do not reject an article without returning it to the author with a brief
explanation of why it was rejected.  In such a case, I almost always give a
suggestion of alternate groups where it could be submitted.  Often I find
messages from `regulars' that need redirection; in these cases, where I have
an understanding worked out ahead of time, I will redirect the message to
another forum without checking with the poster first.  Finally, we often get
requests for very simple pieces of information, such as ``How do I apply for
membership in the NRA?''  I often answer these directly without using up the
net bandwidth of a full posting.  A FAQ list will be developed shortly to
help in this activity.

If you submit an article but neither see it in the newsgroup nor receive an
acknowledgement, then either your article or my reply disappeared was lost
in the Great Network Void.  Therefore, it's a good idea to keep a backup
copy of any long article you submit.  Currently I am able to process most
messages within hours of their arrival here, so wait a day or two (to give
the net a chance to catch up) before sending a follow up query.  Whenever I
know I will be tied up with meetings (or matches!)  then I will send out a
message a day or so ahead of time warning of sporadic response.

A brief note on huge files.... please don't post them.  Our forum is gated
to many other subnets and mailers, and sysops gratiously allow us the use
so long as they have a good idea of what kind of usage to expect from us
(which is to say "little".)  Huge files, such as come from uuencoded sound
or image files, or from useful programs, really louse up our arrangements.
Try posting it elsewhere on the net, or set up an ftp server, then post a
brief pointer to it here in our forum.  These seems to work the best.

Comments and suggestions for improvement are always welcome.


LEGAL MATTERS AND CAUTIONS

We are not lawyers here, and even if so then we could not know the laws of
all 50 states, plus numerous foreign countries.  Some items offered for sale
in this group may not be legal in certain jurisdictions.  Similarly, some
activities discussed here may be illegal in some jurisdictions (e.g.,
concealed carry of firearms).  It is the reader's responsibility to learn
the relevant laws before acting.  No one in this group, and certainly not
the moderator, can be responsible if you act illegally.  If in doubt,
contact a good attorney.

A similar disclaimer applies to firearms safety.  Be sure you understand
what you're doing before following any advice posted to this group.  THIS IS
ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT WHEN HANDLOADING AMMUNITION.  Though many knowledgeable
and experienced people post to this group, typographical errors do occur,
and your situation may not be identical to that described in the posting.
YOU have primary responsibility for your actions.  If in doubt, check with a
competent gunsmith.


ADDRESSES

Most news software should be set up to submit postings via email to
			gun-control@cs.umd.edu

`Out of band' communication and requests not for general distribution should
be sent to
			magnum@cs.umd.edu

A digestified version of rec.guns is sent out to those who may not have
regular access to the netnews version.  Send an out-of-band request to me if
you find yourself in such a situation and I will add you to this list.  But
please, please, please --- only use it if you cannot get rec.guns at your
own site!  My mailer is loaded enough as it is.

Archives of previous rec.guns discussions are available on the Internet.
Using "ftp", login in as "anonymous" to "flubber.cs.umd.edu" (that is
128.8.128.99 on your Internet listening dial.)  Change do the "rec/" sub-
directory and grab what you like.  We also carry back reviews, databases,
programs and other materials donated by the net.  We are not responsibile
for the accuracy or value of this donated text, but we provide it to those
who may wish to have it.

An FTP archive with articles describing the gun legislation in some non-US 
countries is maintained by Holger Reusch.  The articles are available via 
anonymous FTP from          ftp.vmars.tuwien.ac.at (128.130.39.16) 
in the directory /pub/misc/guns/gunlaw.  The README file there contains 
additional information.  To contribute to this archive, or for more 
information, contact Holger at holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at.

==============================================================================

III.  A REVIEW OF "CENSORSHIP" IN THE PAST

For perspective, I provide a few examples of how different posts are treated.
In fairness, since I did not post them before, I think it proper to only offer
anonymous quotes.  I suppose a subtitle for this section is "why I am pretty 
sure moderation helps keep a good signal to noise ratio."


Some posts I simply drop, for example:
  
  I need some information about AK-47's and importing them or exporting a large
  number of them to another country.  If possible, I could use the price of the
  guns as well.  I know of a need for approximately 10,000-20,000 of these guns.
  If you can give me any information about these guns, or even better a supplier
  of these guns, that would be much appreciated.  I will also need the price
  of the guns.  If I can get some good estimates for the prices of the guns, 
  I may be purchasing many of them.
  
The mail header had been faked; to verify, I simply responded with a request
for confirmation of the post.  It bounced (badly), and I dropped the post.

When one poster made reference to use of firearms in a particular scouting
activity, we drew the following complaint:

  I just like to raise my objections to the entire scouting vocation.  As a
  liberal I do not want my children around guns.  Guns kill people; guns
  kill kids.  Further Scouting takes away from valuable time to do
  homework.  XXXXX, my daughter, has no free time for scouting, as her
  class work takes all her time.  If she were to go to scouts, she
  wouldn't have time for her Political Systems, Comparitive Religions,
  or Tai-Kwan-Doe classes.

  DO NOT SUPPORT THE SCOUTS.  DO NOT SUPPORT MILITARISM.  SUPPORT EDUCATION.

This is a classic example of what I send to talk.politics.guns, with a note
of explanation to the poster sent in private.

We unfortunately get more notes like the following than I find would like:
    
    Subject: GUNS KILL!!! GOD FORBIDS THEM!!!
    				ATTENTION!!!!!!!
    URGENT
    ______
    
    GUNS ARE FOR LOSERS............
    YOU GUYS MUST BE HARD UP
    ONLY DICKHEADS HAVE GUNS.........
    E.G SADDAM HUSSEIN........
    GOD CONDEMNS YOU ALL...........
    MAY YOU AND ALL YOUR GUNS BURN AND DISINTERGRATE IN HELL!!!!!!
    WAKE UP!!!!!!!!
    PURCHASE WATER PISTOL INSTEAD AND PRETEND TO BE NINJA MUTANT TURTLES, AT 
    LEAST THE TURTLES DON'T KILL ORDINARY PEOPLE OR PRECIOUS ANIMALS.........
    YOU GUYS ARE OF BUT A SMALL MINORITY.............
    IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR ARE ALL ABNORMAL.......
    

I usually refer them to talk.politics.guns.  Sometimes I send a polite note
to the postmaster at the originating site, along the following lines:
    
  Hello, I am the moderator for a network news group called "rec.guns", 
  a technical discussion group.  I'm sorry to have to contact you concerning
  user named "XXXXXXX", seemingly at your site; this person spews vulgarities,
  without technical merit, for international consumtion, for example as given
  in the posting I append below.   I don't know any group that finds this sort
  of abuse of the network acceptible, and wonder if you would be so kind as to
  consult with the individual, taking steps to clean up your act.  At the very
  least, I hope you will arrange to keep such filth from propagating outside
  of your site.

I am pleased to say that I have had uniformly pleasant dealings with all
managers within whom I've corresponded in this way, and I make a point of
following up their responses with profuse thanks.

We get plenty of "mass mailings", where people simply want wide coverage
in all groups, such as:
    
    Subject: ADULT MAGS IN ENGLISH WANTED...
    Hi, folks!
     I am writing this message in the hope to find a pen pal who would be able 
    to provide me with colour hard core adult mags on regular basis. In exchange
    I can send russian press, books and the like issued in CIS. You won't be 
    dissappointed.  All those who are agree please let me know via E-mail at 
    the following address: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    
A terse response back to the poster assuring them they got adequate coverage 
in all 600 other news groups usually suffices.
    
In some very few cases, the sysop for a site plays with a mail header and
accidentally damages it, and it appears anonymous.

   From:           anonymous
   Subject:        ***** IMPORTANT *****   --PLEASE READ--
   Organization:   XXXXXXXX University
   Message-Id:     <9210120158.AA27138@XXXXXXXX.EDU>
   
   Dear gunowning, gunloving, bastards,
   (3 insults)
   I have one word to say to you
   GUNCONTROL !!!!!!!
   
In the spirit of doing public service, I figure it is a shame to have someone
miss out on responses to their insight, and so try to track down the poster
and repair damaged headers.   As it happened in the above example, I have
logins on the campus from which this post came (other side of the continent),
and so found that the sun workstation from which this was posted is a personal
machine.  With the help of an open syslog file or two, I was able to repair
the damaged header and forward the post to talk.politics.guns for discussion.
Its rewarding to help keep dialog going. ;->