From: anthrax@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:48:11 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <lairdb.721277485@crash.cts.com>, lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:
# In <01GQV8AW7S5W0046A8@VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU> anthrax@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:
# #In article <viking.721119254@vincent1.iastate.edu>, viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
# ## 
# ## I hadn't really thought about it before, but what is possibly the best
# ## poor tactical position to put somebody in, and just how would you enforce
# ## your wishes?  Personally, I like the idea of spread eagle, on the ground,
# ## face in the dirt for a perp, but what if he doesn't obey?  I can't shoot
# ## the guy then, and there's no other option open to me.  If I'm holding
# ## a gun on a guy, I can't adjust his attitude with a club.  I've given
# ## myself only one option, basically.
# 
# #The current position that is being taught to law enforcement as the safest
# #way to position suspects is the "prone position".  We have the subject lay on
# #the ground with his head turned away from the officer.  The subjects arms are
# #to be extended all the way out from the body with the palms facing up.  The
# #legs are to be spread as wide out as possible.  (Another school of thought has
# #the suspect crossing his/her ankles).
# 
# No disagreement, but I think the more interesting question is the one Dan
# brings up next: what if the subject refuses?  Assume he makes no otherwise 
# "threatening" moves for the moment, just stands there.  Could Joe Civilian
# (remember, we're focussing on the civilian response) interpret refusal-to-
# obey as a threatening response in-and-of-itself?  If the answer is "no", 
# formulate and defend an appropriate response.  If the answer is "yes", 
# discuss the civilian's liability exposure, and appropriate "story".

I know the answer for law enforcement which is "No. You can't shoot someone for
not following your verbal commands".  If a subject refuses to prone out for me
and I have him at gun point, I can't shoot him.  What I would suggest is to
continue to give the verbal commands until he either complys or the cavalry
arrives.   Time is probably going to be on your side, there is no reason to do
anything stupid like trying to force him to the ground and end up having to
fight him.  
 
I would say the same thing also applys to civilians who are engageing suspects
at gunpoint.  If the subject does not comply with the verbal commands, I'd say
keep giving them until help arrives.  If help is not on the way, you might just
have to wait them out.  It's a tough question for civilians, law enforcement
has the comfort of being able to call for help on their portables and getting
assistance...I really can't think of any definative answer to the question for
civilians.
# 
# (Not specifically to you, Eric, even if I did phrase it as an exam
# question.  :-)  Anybody, feel free to chime in.)

# 
# 
#  ; personally (opinion formed through simulations) I favor
# the legs-apart style: IMO, visually-psychologically you have a tad more 
# warning as the subject begins to move.
# -- 
# Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
# Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
# 

Eric