From: chr04ha@vmsa.technion.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Refuting Xian Missionaries (README)
Date: 16 Dec 92 16:44:21 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology

In article <1992Dec13.213230.5983@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, 
friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
> 
> Because this aggravating thread of messianic Judiasm has reappeared
> I am posting an excerpt from one of the best books on refuting Xian
> missionaries, "You Take Jesus, I'll Take G-d" by Samuel Levine.
> It is available at may Jewish bookstores for $6 in paperback.
> It is about 130 pages long.  If you are not near a Jewish bookstore,
> call 1-800-JUDAISM, and order it through the mail from Pinskers
> book store in Pittsburgh.
> 
> Outline for refuting Chrsitian missionaries (pgs. 9-10):
> 
[citation deleted]

> I highly recommend this book to anyone.  I would personally add something to
> part 1 above:  When someone quotes to you, ask them to furnish the verse in
> context (I ask for the paragrahs before and after the verse) in Hebrew, since
> it is only fair to verify Jesus in his original language of study.  This will
> usually scare them away.
> 

Although fundamentalist readings - whether Jewish or Christian - 
of the scriptures leave me cold,  I prefer that Jews who have a 
fundamentalist turn of mind should rely on Jewish sources and OUR 
traditional interpretations, rather than being seduced by plausible 
arguments based on tendentious translations of passages in the 
Tanach that are deiberately phrased so as to prophesy subsequent 
events.

Therefore, let me add one more method of dealing with the arguments  
of missionaries: To peruse the New Testament for internal evidence of 
deliberate mistranslation of the Tanach in what they call the Old 
Testament.  Regrettably, this method can only be used by those of 
us who have so little expectation of being rewarded in the afterlife
that we feel free to disregard R Akiva's injunction against reading 
"external  books" (Sanhedrin 90a).

The recent exchange of posts on the Crucifixion Prophecy offers an
excellent example. A brief but - I believe - fair summary of previous 
posts on the case under consideration follows.

ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) said:
<>A number of you have already asked me about the so called Crucifixion
<>prophecy.  It is Psalm 22.

<>The key line is : THEY HAVE PIERCED MY HANDS AND FEET

<>When the first Christian Jews pointed this out in the first Century
<>the sages said NO! It says LIKE A LION, MY HANDS AND FEET

<>that is to say they changed the pointing.  But 300 years beforehand
<>the Tenach was translated into Greek with this line intact - the point being
<>that scripture was oral at that time as well as written so that no one can
<>argue about it.

To this, tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil (Tim Miller) replies:
<|>           From: _Tanakh: A New Translation of the Holy Scriptures
<|>According to the Traditional Hebrew Text_, The Jewish Publication
<|>Society, New York (5746/1985)
<|>
<|>         (No, I don't like the translation, but I was given this and I
<|>have yet to get enough money for a better edition)
<|>
<|>                Psalms, 22:17
<|>        "...Dogs surround me; / a pack of evil ones closes in on me, /
<|>like lions [they maul] my hands and feet."

I don't like it either. In the older J.P.S. translation (1917, reprinted
1955),	the Hebrew text is given a more literal rendering:
       " For dogs have encompassed me; / a company of evildoers have
inclosed me / Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet."

<|>                 With a reference to Isaiah 38:13:
<|>	  "...Then it was as though a lion / Were breaking all my bones; /
<|> I cried out until morning / (Only from daybreak to nightfall / Was I
<|> kept whole.)"
<|>
<|>          With a notation that the last 2 lines have uncertain meaning in
<|> Hebrew.
<|>
<|>	  Psalms 22:17 has a further reference, "With Rashi."  I'm afraid
<|> I don't have the reference, anyone care to supply it?

Rashi says: "As if they [my bones] were being crushed in the mouth of a
lion, and this is what was said by Hezekiah in Isaiah 38."

Ibn Ezra adds: "...hands are mentioned because he could have used them
to fight with and feet because they might have enabled him to escape."

<> When the first Christian Jews pointed this out in the first Century
<> the sages said NO! It says LIKE A LION, MY HANDS AND FEET
<> that is to say they changed the pointing.

<|>        Since the sages were working with original source material and
<|>"Christian Jews" -- actually Christian deceivers -- were working with
<|>admittedly inadequate translations, I'm inclined to conclude that the
<|>sages were correct.

 [the rest of the exchange is deleted]

 Stated baldly, the question is whether the Christian version of Psalms 
 22,17 (22,16 in the King James version) was altered so as to become a more 
 credible prophesy of the crucifixion or - as the missionary claims - the 
 sages deleted the crucial words "they pierced" before "my hands and 
 feet" in order to disguise the prophesy.
 
 Tim Miller then quotes the context of the preceding and following verses
 to show that the entire Psalm:
 <|>	  Sounds more like a prayer for strength than a description of a
 <|> crucifixion to me.

 To the argument:
 <> Many other lines correspond exactly to the New Testament account such
 <> as the opening cry and the parting of the garments
 he replies:
 <|>          There's a good reason for this:  The "New Testament" account was
 <|>written between 70-100 years *after the supposed event*, and
 <|>deliberately modeled after selected verses in Kethuvim and Nevi'im to
 <|>provide legitimacy.  It's called "retconning;" ask a trekkie or a comic
 <|>book afficionado what that means.
 
 In line with the last citation from Tim Miller's post, with which I 
 am in full agreement, it is clear why Psalm 22 was chosen to be the
 Crucifixion Prophecy.	In addition to the poignant despair of a man
 beset by adversity that pervades the Psalm, the opening cry, "My God, 
 my God, why have you  forsaken me?" and the "parting of the clothes", 
 are so appropriate to the crucifixion that these two features are 
 faithfully reproduced in the accounts of that event in both Matthew and 
 Mark. John actually cites Psalm 22 explicitly, saying that the parting 
 of the  clothes occured so "that the scripture might be fulfilled".

 Oddly enough, however, in none of these descriptions of the crucifixion,
 or in Luke's slightly different version, is there any mention of "pierced 
 hands and feet"!
 
 It is inconceivable that such an important "fulfilment of prophecy"
 would have been left out of all four accounts of the crucifixion if
 the Christian version of Psalm 22 were current at the time when they 
 written. It seems obvious to to me that the words "they pierced" 
 are apocryphal, having been inserted into the text of Psalm 22 at a
 later date, in order to lend verisimilitude to the image of the 
 tormented figure on the cross, his hands and feet pierced by nails.

 Amitai
	    
 P.S. Since I agree with the many previous posters who feel that s.c.j.
      is no place for missionary activity or interdenominational debate,
      this is my first and last post on the subject. 

				  A.
 *---------------------------------------------------------------*
 | E.A. Halevi, Department of Chemistry, Technion - I.I.T.       |     
 | "Mipnei seiva takum, vehadarta pnei zaken" - Leviticus 19, 32 |
 *---------------------------------------------------------------*

 <>Vijay Bhuchar

<|> Tim Miller

 > Gedaliah Friedenberg