From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Organization: insert anything here
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 02:29:46 GMT

bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
>/ I have heard more biased statements from "masculine" men directed toward
>/ those they perceive as effeminate or "queeny", then I have heard going the
>/ other way.

	Where's this attribution?

>Oh, really? Look at what is going on in this thread on Usenet.

>This thread (and all the related threads) have been an exercise in
>feminine gays trying to redefine "masculine".  The idea is to stretch the
>definition wide enough to (somehow) include them as well.

	Which feminine gays?  How can you tell from a posting?  I'm
assuming that you're not pulling down the gif archive to cross-check
(not that that would really tell you anything, since how people "look"
in a picture is not definitive as how they "act"...)

>In the process, of course, they have to slam and tear the normal-acting, 
>masculine gays who need no such redefinition.  In order to create a new
>definition of "masculine", it is first necessary to destroy the old one,
>since the fem. gays can't live up to it.  


	Live up to what?  Given the people that have been doing the
most rationale discourse on this thread (and no, I don't include you on
that list), and having met most of them, I don't see how anyone could
not preceive them as "masculine".  Of course this is silly - since the
"requirement" of having a concept as "masculine" as some sort of thing
to measure up against is likewise silly.  And it totally belies the
fact that it precludes any recognition that womyn have anything to say
on this topic...

>/Any bias in the gay community seems to be in favor of the masculine 
>way around.  I am afraid I fail to see what is wrong with this.  
>
>Perhaps is because those individuals who propagate stereotypes make it
>hard for the group as a whole to be accepted.  

	Perhaps not.  In fact the more I am out in the community the
more I am certain that this is in fact not the case.  Trying to 
"grade" the value of people in the GLBO* community by a set of looks
and/or behavior is worthless, since those who hate us and those who
would deny us our rights don't care --- they are only concerned that
we aren't what THEY want us to be - it doesn't matter if we're nellie,
butch, masculine, feminine, feminine-acting-masculine, masculine-acting-
feminine, alternating-between-the-two-every-other-day, etc, etc, etc, etc.

	Harping on such a set of non-issues, only makes clear a great
insecurity about these issues.  Perhaps you could get counseling to
help you get over your homophobia...


>Of course, as soon as someone
>says something like that, a thousand screaming voices go up "I should be
>accepted for what I am, regardless of how I act".  People may believe
>that, but life doesn't work that way.  Gay pride parades featuring faggots 
>from hell wearing nothing but g-strings are pretty terrifying to the average
>person. 

	Getting beaten up by a bunch of straight boys is pretty
terrifying to me.  Losing my job because I'm gay is terrifying to me.
What makes it "OK" for a bunch of people to make me deny who I am to
beg for my rights when they didn't have the right to take them away 
in the first place?  
	
>The ultimate question is:  what do you want to accomplish?  Do you want
>your short little hour on stage to strut like a drag queen, or do you want 
>to make progress towards gay acceptance?

	I want the progress.  But to get anywhere it will be necessary
for us to be unified.  As long as there are assholes like you trying
to tear us apart because you can't "handle" the fact that people are
different than you we will get nowhere with the people who deny us
our rights because we are "different" than them.  Do you see the
very obvious parallel there?  

	
>measure (private or public) to restrict this.  However, the right to act how 
>you please doesn't carry with it an guarantee that you will be respected 
>for how you act.


	Of course not.  I mean look at this - it's very clear that I
have no respect for you.  But I'm sure with a little counseling under
your belt you might learn to confront your own fears about gay men
who are different from you.

	And respect has nothing to do with rights anyway.  I don't
give a flying frog's ass if George Bush respects me.  I don't live for
his approval.  But I'll be damned if I'll let him decide for me what
I'm allowed to do based solely on my orientation.  I'm sorry that you
feel that you need the mainstream's approval for you to feel good about
yourself, your orientation and your community.

BBC
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