From: dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Win Win situation for Muslims Hindus & Secularists at Ayodhya
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:51:55 CST
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1il9trINNsdn@shelley.u.washington.edu>, 
shamshoo@shelley.u.washington.edu (Shams Hasan) writes:
> In article <1993Jan8.193043.3081@zip.eecs.umich.edu> raghu@nairobi.eecs.umich.edu (Raghu Mani) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan6.152014.8008@ryn.mro4.dec.com>, verma@pfeast.enet.dec.com (Virendra Verma) writes:
>>...... (deleted)......
>>What bothers me most about the destruction of the mosque is not the actual
>>destruction itself but the motives behind the parties/groups that engineered
>>it. What we have here is a group of parties that have for many years been
>>trying to win the support of the majority religious group by trying to incite 
>>anger and aggression against a minority religious group. Advani, Vajpaye and 
>>other "moderates" are merely the acceptable face of the BJP/VHP. Behind this
>>mask, the BJP/VHP are as extreme as you can get - I have heard tapes of speeches
>>by the likes of Ashok Singhal and Uma Bharati - they bear a very disturbing 
>>resemblance to the speeches by the Nazi leaders about the Jews. 
>>

  I find this an excellent Freudian escape by Raghu Mani. Jews, historically,
  have been persecuted throughout centuries. The Qur'an in Surah IX asks
  Mohammed to slay Jews. (Pickthall's translation of Al_Qur'an says so.). 
  Mohammed was also asked to slay idolators and this is definitely in Surah IX.
  
  The situation is quite different from Muslims in India. Muslims in India have
  been a pampered community, aligning with nefarious politicla parties - and
  just to gain importance - probably to justify their dar-ul-Islam policies.
  The destruction of the mosque (which as I know was abandined) was suddenly
  declared as "holy" etc. and etc. by some Baharuddin and others. 

  The recent riots in India have  shown clearly that it is:

  (1) not a manifestation of the BJP - the GOI has acquired the land just
      1 month after the dispute - all of a sudden - when it *COULD* have 
      been done before - without any hassles.

  (2) Muslims who have been claiming authority - fomenting the seed of
      discontent (just as Shamshool  Hasan does - claiming to hang loose
      from a Cabooose) and making not only Hindus but all other minorities
      *angry*. The BJP is *no* party of holy people - just as Cong.(I) or
      CPI(M) are ! Who is a "honest" party in India for that matter !

  (3) It is poor the Hindu and Muslims who get butchered while the rich (as
      is Shamshooool Hasan) comfortably chants the canons of philosophy and
      rules and regulations ! How comfortably hypocritical ! Pickthall's
      translation of the Al_Qur'an describes a Surah called "Spider". There
      Allah (saws) describes the hypocrites; Shamshooool Hasan belongs to that
      category of spiders. He will tell his American friends, ha !!

  (4) Leaving some half-fed, diseased state policemen near a disputed site
      is surprising. The blame of course goes to Kalyan Singh - while many
      reaped the harvest. That's good ! I like it ! I will do it ! That's
      the way it's gotta be, I like it/ I like it !!

      What was the army doing ?????


>>Since Mr. Verma has quoted Hindu philosophy to justify his position, let me do
>>the same to justify mine. One of the things that the Gita teaches us is that
>>the motives behind our actions are as important as our actions themselves. It
>>is Krishna's advice to Arjuna to fight because it is the correct thing to do -
>>because, in that situation, it is his duty - if we learn anything from this,
>>it is that personal advancement and revenge SHOULD NOT be motives in a conflict
>>of this nature. Can anyone honestly say that the BJP/VHP acted solely out of 
>>a desire for the general good? 

  The BJP did some miscalculations. The party paid for it. Who reaped the
  benefit ??? Cong.(I) ! What about a presidential form of government ???
  No ! That's not what is gonna' happen ! Why Pakistan and Iran will threaten
  India ! What about Indians ? Oh ! Let us take them for granted as 2nd class
  citizens ! They (Hindus) will read the Gita and then kurnish a rich mullah
  in Lucknow or in Afzalganj in Hyderabad !!! That's not a problem. We shall
  again go to a temple and put on a tilak and ask their votes !!! Then we
  shall go to bed with some secessionists and grant them amnesty. Next, we
  shall kick their (Hindus) butts. A Shamshool Hasan will say: good ! I like
  it ! It is better that Hindus get castrated !!! Yeah, this is democracy !!!


>>
>>The BJP has engineered this entire episode with a view of gaining support among
>>Hindus - this is not to say that the other parties haven't been equally selfish - 
>>the Congress is among the worst offenders in this regard - and yes, I do agree
>>with many of the BJP's complaints about pandering to minorities but I am 
>>very much opposed to their idea of a solution. India is like a patient with some
>>kind of tumor - surgery is certainly needed but we do not want a surgeon who 
>>tries to cure the problem by lopping the patient's head off.
>>

   Is there any proof of this Raghu ? The general feeling is that BJP is
   communal. Now, if I say that there will be one Federal law for *all*
   Indians -no matter if they are Muslims/ Hindus/ Christians/ Sikhs or
   anybody, what is unfair about that ???? Or is it uncivilized ???? In
   Washington, where Shams Hasan goes around bad-mouthing Indians and India,
   the same uniformity of law (the one I mentioned) exists. Can Shams deny
   that ? Can you (Raghu) deny that ???? 


>>Raghu Mani
> 
> Dear Raghu,
> 
> I am disturbed by all fanatics be they hindoo or muslim or KKK here in U.S.
> As these feed on ignorant and poor of the society who are the easiest to 
> make fools of.
>
  Look who's talkin' - hanging loose from a Caboose ! He critizes the swastika
  - whow ! What can I say ? Shams the bad-mouthing Pkai-american has not:

 (1) read the works of Fredrich Max Muller,
 (2) Schopenhauer,
 (3) Carl Gustav Jung, and,
 (4) Romand Rolland
 
  and many others whose works I have not read.

  Instead of bad-mouthing about BM and the modality of castrating the Hindoos,
  he should go around reading the works mentioned above. Better still, if he
  is unable to understand what these gentlemen have written - the he can
  contact Dr.Tom Tedrick at UC Berkeley (where he teaches religious studies),
  on Hindu culture. BTW, just look at the fanatic paki-american ! He thinks
  Hinduism is a religion. It is *not*. He does not know (how can he, eh ?)
  that Hinduism is a culture.
 
> One area of hindooism I was discussing with a group of class mates was the
> recent Babri mosque destruction, and the group being predominantly white
> Americans wanted to know about hindoo-muslim antagonism.
>

  It is a well-known fact that the Americans have fallen in the hands of a
  characteristically anti-idolator, orthodox, Khomeini following, fanatic
  paki-american called Shamshooool Hasan. To avoid being misinformed, they
  should ask questions on this network. Or better still, they should direct
  their questions to the editor of alt.hindu newsgroup. (The e-mail address
  is: editor@rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu).

 
> So far I have only asked them to follow scp/sci/scb to get an idea of the
> atmosphere and maybe gleen some information about the issue.
>                      ^^^^^^ (glean)

 
> However, I did mention that the swastika in an inverted form was something
> I felt had to to with hindoo fanaticism, as well as the caste system, similar
> to Nazi philosophy.
>
  At the present time, Nazi philosophy is practised by Islamic countries.
  Terrorizing the minority is their motto. I don't know how a moron like
  you be a Muslim - when Muslims are suppossed to be tolerant ????

 
> You seem to have a better background knowledge about the mentality and the 
> present ongoing situation in India. Could you please throw some light on this
> sensitive topic ?
>

  Oh ! You have alerady selected your source of information ??? That means I
  can go and read any translation of Qur'an ignoring Pickthall or Youssef Ali
  and claim that I have the accurate information, when *almost* all muslims
  disregard the book by N.J.Dawood as utter nonsense ??????

 
> btw, I seem to have offended at least one person regarding the Bhangi/Chamaar
> usage towards people whose vocabulary seemed restricted to obscene and vulgar
> gutter language.   
> 

    Really ? Actually many of your co-religionists think that you are stupid
    moron pukibg on the sci. Restricted vocab. is used upon you because we
    Hindus are tolerant.

> Bhangi/Chamaar are generally known in Pakistan to use this
> kind of language normally without any hangups and are pretty proud of
> themselves. So, as none of the Bhangis have countered my article nor taken
> offence as being called Bhangi, they too must be proud of that honor.
> 
   The same exists in India, unfortunately. But even they would consider
   you as low-caste  - given tyhe taste of your mentality.

> Best Regards,
> Shams Hasan.

     - khuda hafiz,

       deb chatterjee
    (a good samaritan)

  P.S: At least a fanatic Hindu like me has read the Qur'an. Made efforts to
       read it. I may not have met an Islamic scholar, but, I have done what
       best I can do. According to the Qur'an, Allah  will forgive me. What
       about you, hanging loose from some stupid tail, and, priding yourself
       as  a goddamn paki-american ???????

Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian