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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 22:08:42 -0500
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Catholic doctrine of predetination.

Dear netters;

I have a Catholic Bible in my possession.  The title page says that it is
"The Family Rosary Commemorative Edition of the Catholic Bible issued in
remembrance of the Marian year".  It has a copyright date of 1957.

In the back of the bible there is "A Practical dictionary of Biblical and
General Catholic Information".  Under the heading Predestination the
following definition is given.

"The decree of the divine will by which God from all eternity forsees and
prepares grace for all men and eternal happiness for certain men.  Pre-
destination is an article of faith and is based on Scripture, tradition,
and the decisions of the Church.  The essence of the Catholic doctrine on
this mystery of the faith is that God, in view of man's free will,
predestines certain men for salvation; that he wills all men be saved and
bestows on all the grace requisite for salvation; that no one is
excluded from salvation except through his own fault.  Apart from the
essential doctrine, there are divergent explanations of predestination
among Catholic theologians.  The Church's teaching on predestination is
opposed to that of Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, Calvinism, and
Janenism."

Would the Catholics on the list say that this is an accurate definition
of what the Catholic church teaches about Predestination?  Let me assure
those that may be wary that there is no trick question involved here.
My only motive is curiosity.  (Actually, I find myself pretty much in
agreement with the definition ...)

Brian
From: bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM ((Brad Kaiser))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: re: Baptismal Regeneration?
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:57:26 GMT
Reply-To: bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
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Tom Brewer writes yet another attack on Catholic theology, this time
referring to Catholic beliefs regarding baptism.

Since the beliefs of Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, and
Lutherans (and maybe some Presbyterians & Methodists?) regarding
baptism are virtually identical (as far as I can tell), perhaps Tom
should include them as well, and title his thread "Confused
Christianity".

No, change that, I'll do it myself: Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans,
and others who believe in sacramental Christianity as practiced for
the past 2000 years, why do you hold such crazy, superstitious
ideas?  Are you all off your collective rockers, or have you just
never read the Bible?  Do you honestly think that pouring water over
somebody's head and saying words has *any* significance whatsoever?

What superstitious silliness!  Next you'll be spouting twaddle about
a "God-man" being raised from the dead.  Nonsense, utter nonsense!

In Christ's Peace,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)



   After all the people had been baptized and Jesus also had been
   baptized and was praying, heaven was opened and the holy Spirit
   descended upon him in bodily form like a dove.
                            -- Lk 3:21,22

   This prefigures baptism, which saves you now.  It is not a removal
   of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience,
   through the resurrection of Jesus Christ ...
                            -- 1 Pt 3:21

   ... not because of any righteous deeds we had done, but because of
   his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by
   the Holy Spirit ...
                            -- Titus 3:5

   Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in
   the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you
   will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." ... Those who accepted
   his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were
   added that day.
                            -- Acts 2:38,41

   ... but once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good
   news about the kingdom of God ... men and women alike were
   baptized.
                            -- Acts 8:12

   Immediately things like scales fell from his [Paul's] eyes and he
   regained his sight.  He got up and was baptized.
                            -- Acts 9:18

   Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were
   baptized into his death?  We were indeed buried with him through
   baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the
   dead ... we too might live in newness of life.
                            -- Rom 6:3,4

   You were buried with him [Jesus] in baptism, in which you were also
   raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him
   from the dead.
                            -- Col 2:12
From: DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU (Ken Diefenbach)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Absolute Certainty about Authority
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:35:00 GMT
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> From:	IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU"  "Practical Christian Life"
 14-OCT-1992 00:58
> To:	Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
> CC:
> Subj:	RE: Absolute Certainty about Authority
>
> > Dear Darren ;
> >
> > One question for you :
> >
> > "How do you objectively know for SURE that You exist?"
> >
> > Outside of some objective criterion, how can you know for CERTAIN
> > that you are notunreal?
> >
> >
> > Jesse Carnes
> >
>
>
> I think therefore I yam (cogito ergo spud...)
>
>

Or cogito ergo Popeye......

(couldn't resist it sorry - Parents & Citizens last night finished after 11.
I'm tired...)

Ken Diefenbach
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 14:41:46 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Security of Salvation?

Replying to James Kiefer, he stated that plausibility on BOTH sides of a
doctrinal issue may be the case.
And so it seems.
However, such plausibility is only ostensible, because Truth has only
one interpretation in context.
Using logic signs, something cannot be both "A" and "non-A" at the same time
and in the same relationsihip.  This constitutes the "Law of Contradiction."
I appreciate Mr. Kiefer's call to gentleness, but let the issue of Truth
as it really is by definition be vindicated.

If ONE and the SAME doctrinal question is being addressed and more than
one plausible answer is the case, such plausibility is metaphysically real,
but exegetically bogus.
One of the modus operandi of sound exegesis is that when a writer states
something, he is saying only one thing at a time, unless indicated by
admission or blatant context.


Jesse Carnes
From: A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: WOW!
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:47:42 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

yea, WOW! A new life is always a miracle. God Almighty keep you and your
beloved in His grace.

Shalom,
Memo.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Members of Christia
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:36:25 GMT


   Doesn't Listserv let you set the access for the log?  It does not
seem unreasonable to me to restrict access to it only to Christia
members.  Personally I am offended that some self-appointed thought
policeman is intruding on the list.  Whoever the person is sounds like
a Fascist, and I am NOT using the term lightly.  One common Fascist
tactic, which this person is using, is to ridicule or even harass
people for their beliefs, in hopes of making them afraid to express
their beliefs.  I will refrain from using any of the terms of contempt
which come into my mind for such people.

   I think if the person continues to do this, his or her name should
be released to the group in general.  The person knows who we all are,
so why shouldn't we know who he is?

   I suspect that the person in question is also a hypocrite, who is
himself motivated by hate, and is just using "hate" as an excuse to
make an attack on this list because it is Christian.

   Not afraid to hide behind anonymity,

--Steve

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:15:28 CDT
From:         "St. Jesse of Karnez" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Yo' beez a Saint!

Dear St. Neemo, er, Memo
(not a very ship-shape greeting);

You have to be a big shot before you can be c a n n o n ized.


St. Jesso of Carnez (or if you use my middle initial "I" then you can call
me ... you guessed it :  Saint Jic!


:-):-):-)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 08:30:07 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Security of Salvation?

> Replying to Gareth 's post, all that I assert is that the Bible is
> SUFFICIENT inherently for us to draw correct conclusions in nebulous
> areas. Either it is or it is NOT.  So, which will it be Gareth. This
> is the REAL question here  :  "Is the Bible sufficient within itself
> for Christians of the true calabre to arrive at correctly interpreted
> Truth?"

> Jesse

The Truth, meaning Jesus, is found therein.  But even you belive that
not ALL Truth is found in the Bible.  So, the Bible is sufficient to
draw correct conclusions on all areas that GOD considers it important
for us to be able to do so.  It is not necessarily sufficient to draw
correct conclusions on every area that WE in our pride think that it
should.  A righteous man by the name of Job asked a lot of questions
of God.  Did God give him the answers to all of them?

Having said this, I think Jesse that you haven't picked up on exactly
what the others are saying.  Perhaps you should print the posts out
and read them again at home when the pressures of work aren't as
strong.

Some Questions.

Can a being of finite knowledge prove anything?  Or know anything
without any question at all?

To some extent, isn't that the fundamental question of epistemology, a
division of Philosophy that you mentioned recenty?

Can a fallen imperfect being trust its reasoning abilities in all things?

Mark
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 09:28:48 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Security of salvation?
              8 Oct 1992 09:10:27 -0500 from <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU>

Dear Tim ;

Unless our God is insane ... and He is not ... then it is logically
impossible for Scripture to present citations for both sides of this
case.  Now, there are "christians" and there are Regenerate Christians."
Anything else is pure madness.
The former group may indeed fall away ... for they have left nothing to speak
of, but the latter group maynot ... indeed, they CANNOT fall away, for how
could Jesus be speaking the truth in John 6:38-40 if the contrary were so?


Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu (N. L. Tinkham)
Subject: Logic and God
Summary: How do you know?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Rowan College of New Jersey
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:38:32 GMT

Jesse Carnes writes:

> The ONE rendering is the one which best fits the CONTEXT, for our God is
> not an insane, disjointed, illogical being.  He thinks in Propositional
> statements as we do.  Our ability to communicate in this fashion is part
> of the Image of God.  Our God is a god  of Communication via Spoken
> propositions.

     How do you know that God "thinks in Propositional statements as we do"?
It is true that the prophets record statements from God, so presumably God
is able to speak to us propositionally if he wants to, but I don't think we
have any information about the inner workings of God's mind.  Perhaps God
thinks in a multi-valued or a probabilistic logic.  Perhaps God uses a logic
system that humans haven't invented yet.  Perhaps God perceives truth
directly, without having to translate truths into symbols at all.  Perhaps
even "perceives" is too distant a word -- maybe God "is" truth in some
direct way.

     What is the justification for claiming confidently that God thinks in
propositional statements the way we do, rather than in some different or
transcendent way?

_____________________________________________________________________________

                                              Nancy Tinkham
                                              nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: mktjadx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Jeff A. Dilcher)
Subject: Help please with a Marriage question....
Organization: Georgia State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:02:53 GMT

Hello all,
I have a question about marriage, and God's will as he has given it
in the Bible. Recently, I began dating a girl whom I have known since
I was 15. I am now 29 and she is 28. We had dated some in highschool,
and I am friends with her family and grew up in the same
neighborhood. After highschool, we both went seperate ways, and each
happened to become Christians. In late 1989, she met a man in her
church, and married him after knowing him for only three weeks. The
marriage began to have difficulties even on the day of the wedding,
and proceeded to get worse. He treaated her very cruelly, and, even
though she tried her best to be a wife as defined in scripture, he
never would treat her well. Finally, he told her to leave, and
thereupon she went back to her parants, and they were soon divorced
after only 5 months of marriage.
 
Well, here is my question.  According to 1corinthians 7 10-11, should
she never marry again after this situation?  The reason that I ask
is that I have become reaquainted with her, we have been dating,
and I wish to make her my wife.  We are very much in love, and both
want to marry one another. I was very comfortable about my decision
to marry her until I came upon this passage tonight. Now I am
confused. Any advice that could come from a spirit filled believer
to marry her until I came upon this passage tonight. Now I am
confused. Any advice that could come from a spirit filled believer
would be greatly appreciated. I some how can not believe that it is
God's will for us not to be together because of the the terrible
experience she endured which was called a "marriage".
 
Thankyou in advance,
Jeff
 


-- 
 
  Jeffrey A. Dilcher                                   Atlanta, GA, USA
mktjadx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu                             Telephone 404-266-1585
      NSS #25914                                       II Peter 1:10,11
 



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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 09:33:06 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Teachings of Jesus.
              GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL

Dan,

Good morning!    God bless you!
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:51:52 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Yom Kippur
              5 Oct 1992 20:11:52 EDT from <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>

Lon:

Others may be interested in this, as well, but since I am generally nomail,
would you please answer me privately?

I am wondering whether there is any biblical textual basis for Rosh Hashanah
(sp?) and Yom Kippur (specifically, the opening and closing of the book and
so forth).  Is this derived from the Old Testament somewhere or is it only
in the Talmud?

Thanks.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
From: parsons@cis.ksu.edu (Scott S Parish )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: WANTED: A Christian in or near Mobile, Alabama
Date: 11 Oct 92 20:16:58 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: cygnus.cis.ksu.edu


If you are a Christian in or near Mobile, I would like you to contact
me via e-mail.  This concerns the arresting of a pastor in Mobile for
harrassment.

Thanks,
-- 
Scott Parish                |  The Truth is still the Truth      |  John 14:6
parsons@cygnus.cis.ksu.edu  |  even if you choose to ignore it.  |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 23:02:29 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      More on secular ethics

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757


>The laws of the land say that you can be cruel and unking to everyone passing
>by on the street. You never have to say a kind word to anyone, you can
>to some extent abuse and make a pain of yourself...
>
>What else besides the law of the country do you base your morals on?

I suppose to some extent I base my morals on how I want to be treated by
others.  I try not to do anything to anyone that I wouldn't mind being
done right back to me.

>(do you realise that a lot of the laws of the country are actually
>reflections of Jewish/Christian Morality)

Yes, I do.  I never said that Christianity/Judaism didn't have some good
points, I just choose not to follow either religion because I don't
particularly believe either one of them as a whole.
From: rpgrant@vax.path.ox.ac.uk
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: evolution versus creationism
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:35:03 GMT
Organization: Oxford University Molecular Biology Data Centre
Nntp-Posting-User: rpgrant

In article <921014075413.3255@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>, DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU ((MARK DRAKE)) writes:

Much stuff deleted so you don't have toi wade through it.
> 
> If anything, creating the universe this way makes people proud, not humble.
> People believe that everything is explainable, and that they don't need a
> god.

I think my point was mainly that God is in Heaven, and does whatever please 
Him.
As someone else pointed out (Bill, I think you misunderstood my point of view)
perhaps SCIENCE is the deceit........


> 
> Mark

Love in Christ,

Richard

(A scientist, with no fixed views on creationism vs evolution)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 08:31:28 CDT
From:         Rick Bruns <RBRUNS@SYSTEM.ARKNET.EDU>
Subject:      Christian computer graphics

Does anyone know of a good ftp source for Christian graphics.  Things
such as angels, symbols, etc.

Thanks,
Rick

Rick Bruns
University of Arkansas System Administration
RBRUNS@SYSTEM.ARKNET.EDU
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 19:58:18 +1000
From:         "BUTLER, DAVID ARTHUR" <920221@BRT.DEAKIN.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Prophetic Dreams;Spiritual Warfare etc

G'day Saints'

I'd like to give my testimony re. Spiritual Warfare in Dreams, hoping it may
help somebody, as your testimonies have helped me.

I was half awake one morning, and I was thinking to myself: "Nothing can hurt
me now that I belong to Jesus." I must have said it as a kind of challenge to
the pwers of darkness, because a voice seemed to say: "That's what you think!"

The next moment, something came out of "nowhere" and ... the best way I can
describe it is that it was like a tidal wave of fear and evil that was trying
to wash me away. I was aware at the same time of a "Rock" close by me in the
spiritual realm. I "grabbed" it in my spirit and hung on for dear life as these
waves of fear buffeted me, then receded leaving me shaking like a leaf.

I have learnt since then, as (?) said in a previous message that the best way
to deal with these things is to confront them aggressively in the name of
Jesus! I got so sick of losing sleep due to these attacks that I just plain
got mad at 'em!

Now I hardly get any attacks any more. The Devil's sniffing around like a
roaring lion seeking whome he may devour - it's true, but his power is more in
the roar than the devouring - unless we let him!

"Greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world."

Bless you all.

David B. from Deep-Down-Under (Melbourne Australia.)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 20:09:48 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Yom Kippur

Lon:

Message received with no problem.  Well, okay.  A little problem.  I asked
about the book thing because it sounds so incredibly important, if it were
true.  So I was just wondering where it came from.  If it is Talmudic,
shouldn't there be some explanation of it somewhere?  I mean, did the
rabbis just make it up?  I figure they must have some kind of textual
reference that they inferred it from--otherwise where did it come from?

I guess I'm wondering because it seems to me that all the Jewish festivals
are deeply rooted in history and Scripture.  I find it hard to believe that
one of the most important celebrations could be without *any* such foundation.

Is there somewhere I could look up the foundations of this observation?

Thanks,

Love INC,
         --Kerry
From: ptrei@BISTROMATH.MITRE.ORG
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Masons
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:46:59 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Posted-From: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA

DCC@VASSAR.BITNET (Scott) writes:

> Cound someone please give me any and all information they have
> pertaining to the Masons and the Masonic Lodge?  Are they involved
> in ritualistic magic/practices or is it merely a social organization?

     There was a very drawn-out discussion of Freemasonry in this
group back in June, which was finally abandoned out of mutual
exhaustion. As is usual in such debates, more heat than light was
generated, and very few people modified their positions.

     I'm a Freemason, and run the Masonic Digest mailing list. (For
more info, write me at ptrei@mitre.org - not the obsolete "asgard"
address some lists give).

     Scott, I'm mailing you directly some quasi-FAQ material I have.

     Masonry is a social organization, but it is also something more.
We seek to mould men's character, and make good men better.

     Because we keep a lot of our meetings and methods private, and
typically do not respond to wild accusations, there is a large body of
fantastical anti-Masonic literature. Some have gone so far as to
suggest that membership is incompatible with Christianity. In the
light of the large number of Christian clergy who are Masons, this
seems unlikely.

Off the top of my head:

* An Archbishop of Canterbury in the 1950's (can't remember his name).
* Rev. Norman Vincent Peale (a very active Mason).
* A large portion (~14%) of Southern Baptist pastors. (I don't have figures
  for other denominations).

  ...and 2.75 - 3 million other American men, the vast majority of
whom are Christians or Jews. Probably another 2 million world wide.

    Either Masonry is harmless, or there is a conspiracy so vast and
yet tightly held as to boggle the mind.

    To directly address your question: we do not practice anything a
reasonable person would consider occult or magical.

					yours in Christ,

						Peter Trei
						ptrei@mitre.org
						Senior Warden (Master elect)
						Wilder Lodge
						Ancient Free & Accepted Masons
						Leominster
						MA