HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Incorporating kicks into boxing (Re: Sigh... boxing)
Summary: Adding a tool doesn't *automatically* give an advantage 
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 10 SEP 92 12:42:07    



Peter Capell :
talking about BOXING vs. BOXING w/ KICKS essentially.  If we open the floor to
both kicking, eye gouging, joint locks and so on, Cai Hong Xiang would
definitely kill Evander Hollyfield, no question there at all.

Richard Drury:
are saying that a fighter who is permitted to punch and kick
will generally cream a fighter who is only allowed to punch.  We
are in violent agreement on this point.  In fact, I don't think
anyone who contributed to the boxing thread disagreed.  Come to
think of it, I don't think I've ever seen anyone in this forum
argue otherwise.

Todd Stark:

I argue otherwise, in one minor respect, though I think it's more
embellishment than argument .  I think that given
two good hand fighters, having one learn to throw kicks without incorporating
them well actually gives them a disadvantage.  The additional tools 
and range they can use is offset by the problem of kicks and punches
having somewhat different mechanics.  They will tend to leave more openings
when throwing kicks than they can take advantage of by having more techniques.

To use an extreme analogy to make a point, it's sort of like giving a chef with 
a frying pan a Wok as well.  It's a perfectly good tool for some jobs,
and better for certain others, but you having something extra to use doesn't 
neccessarily mean you can make good use of it.  You have to develop new
methods of incorporating the tool effectively.  ANd in the case of fighting,
where your chain is as strong as the weakest link, or most accessible
opening, an additional tool can actually be a contributing cause for defeat.

So in the beginning, or with inferior training methods in the fighting example, 
the kicks actually are a disadvantage rather than an advantage.  The reason
why this is particularly pertinent to the boxing case is that (western) boxing 
in particular is rather highly developed on its own, and non-trivial to 
incorporate kicks into it.  In Boxe Francaise and Savate, the hand techniques
are modified somewhat from the English development, for good reasons.
Also, the footwork doesn't automatically blend, especially with
leg kicks allowed.  It takes special care to incorporate kicking into
(western) boxing effectively and actually expect to be more effective with 
kicks than without.

							kind regards,

							todd
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts,talk.politics.guns
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com (Laird P. Broadfield)
Subject: Re: A little on self defense...
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:23:48 GMT

In <1992Sep14.050328.7703@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>However, I'd have to disagree about martial arts: At close range, knifes
>or even unarmed martial arts are as effective as firearms (close
>range here means less than, say, a meter or two.) A gun would be
>much more damaging, if it hit, but it is very predictable compared
>to a knife: It can only fire in one, obvious direction. Also martial arts
>training is usefull, if you want to keep an opponent at a distance
>(the sensible thing to do if you have a gun...)

>>	I would agree.  Boxing, karate, etc are nice hobbies, but they
>>are just recreation.  They cannot hope to make up the difference between 
>>115 and 230 lbs, nor between one person and a group of thugs.

>That's a fairly unrealistic comparison: The difference between 140 and
>180 lbs is more likely, and quite reasonable to expect from martial
>arts. (By the way, there are also styles of martial arts that specifically
>deal with multiple opponents, and work fairly well...) 

There sure are.  The unrealistic part of the comparison, though, is that
everyone is leaving the training issue out: for a martial artist to 
progress beyond the imaginary opponent executing a perfect kata to
a street tough (or even street non-tough) is (at the very least) months,
if not years of training and dedicated practice away.

OTOH, when Granny (aged, non-nimble, physically unfit, but mentally
perfectly capable) comes into the gun store, a few hours of instruction
(much of which will be directed toward safety and legal and ethical
implications) later, she can leave at least passably competent at
the use of this particular self-defense method.

-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: achou@plasma.icsl.ucla.edu (Albert Chou)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Styles in Bloodsport?
Date: 5 Sep 92 17:15:09 GMT
Organization: University of California at Los Angeles, EE Dept.

In article <1992Sep3.231915.15833@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>There are monkey styles
>of Kung Fu, but I don't think they would go so far as to jump up
>and down scratching your head like a monkey like was in the film. :)

I think that some of the animal styles really do get into the personality of
the animal.  Certainly hsing i has this intent with the Twelve Animals -- the
practitioner not only uses the body techniques of a given animal, but also its
strategies, tactics, and fighting attitudes.

Al
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan)
Subject: Re: Attitudes (wasRe- Silent or 
Organization: ARINC Research
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:58:00

   Sound can certainly be used as a weapon.  E.g., the flash-bang
   grenades used by anti-terrorist forces are highly disorienting.  
   But the idea that anyone can kiai in such a way as to
   consistently knock down determined attackers (let alone kill
   them) strikes me as pretty far-fetched.  Am I being too narrow
   minded about this?

	Kiai-jutsu was supposed to be a very real thing "back in the good old
days" ( BITGOD ?). At the Karate/Kenjutsu dojo where I used to train, we were
told that the system had 7 different kiai. There was a kiai to create an
opening during your opponent's attack, a kiai to help you generate power, a
certain kind of victory/exhultation kiai, etc...
	As someone else pointed out, a Real Kiai (tm) is much more than just
loud - it's supposed to be sorta "spooky", because it doesn't sound like a
noise that human beings make.


--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM (Garth)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Too Silent, Too Vocal
Date: 11 Sep 1992 01:47:00 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: dojo.west.sun.com

In article 12416@exu.ericsson.se, exudms@exu.ericsson.se (New Dave) writes:
>In article lavb12INNa91@west.west.sun.com, garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM (Garth) writes:
>|>In article 13523@pogo.wv.tek.com, roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud) writes:
>|>>In article <lafi8lINNa3o@west.west.sun.com> garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM writes:
>|>>
>|>>>
>|>>>	Braething is an important part of fighting.  If Kiai's and
>|>>>grunting get in the way of "proper" breathing, then they are not good.
>|>>
>|>> Kia is taught so that you breath properly.  You exhale while attacking
>|>> and get creamed (cannot move) when you inhale.
>|>
>|>Well, once again showing how different everything is, what you say
>|>here doesn't hold true with my art(s).  From where I some from, if you
>|>kiai'd every time you attacked (one for each attack), you would end
>|>up fainting...we work on mutliple fast attacks...I don't know of too
>|>many people who have enough breath to give 4 or 5 good kiais in a row
>|>without inhaling...so kiaiing for at each attack would not work for us.
>
>The idea is that you can not bottle up your emotions and keep the mouth
>closed durring practice. (Nor should any MA have a lazy tongue and jaw
>durring practice, ever.)  If you have trouble breathing durring continuous
>movement, then you need to practice more breathing techniques to not
>let your energy escape rapidly.

.. Items Deleted...

>
>There are times that you must be quiet also. Figure it out.
>
>/New Dave

Guess I chopped out the part that I was responding to...not to smart I
must admit. Robert had said that in his style, he Kiai's on every attack.  
I was just commenting that this would not be possible with my style,
where you might deliver as many as 5 or 6 attacks in a row, as fast as you
can.  Kiaing on the first, or last, attack, or both makes sence, but
on all of them...even if you made it one Looonggggg Kiai (which is improper
Kiaiing in my book), it would be tough.

About keeping your mouth slightly open when sparring, you might end up
regretting that one when you get a upwards strike to the chin...

	-Garth 




			= = = = = = =
  | Garth R. Doverspike		Sun Microsystems, S.E. Seattle |
  | garth.doverspike@west.sun.com			       |
From: justin@pilot.njin.net (Justin Warburton)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Flexibility
Date: 12 Sep 92 01:53:34 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar) writes:



>>know.  Or, ask your most flexible training partner how he got
>>and stays that way.


>I would tend to ask someone who is reasonably flexible but has had
>a hard time getting there. Usually people who are very flexible are
>built that way and cannot understand how difficult it is for everyone
>else.

yes that is the case for me my arms and wrists are flexible and It just has 
always been that way.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jonathan@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Jonathan Dwyer)
Subject: Kiai again   (was Re: Attitudes)
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Organization: Psychology Department, University of Queensland
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 23:42:38 GMT

Nigel Backhurst (nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk) writes:
|>  What is needed is
|> concentration, the correct sound, and above all timing.  If you can
|> `freeze' somebody at the correct point in thier stride, their momentum
|> at that moment will unbalance them and they will fall.

Yes, yes!  I've looked into this too.  It's nowhere near so much of an 'inner'
thing as I had originally thought.  When the kiai coincides with _both_ the
correct point in your opponents shifting of their balance _and_ a split-second
before they finish an inward breath, the hip flexor muscles will not work
either.  This apparently has something to do with the inward breath not
being 'psychologically' completed - they cannot breath out, and the resulting
momentary pause freezes stance stabilizing muscles so the person may fall
down, depending on their momentum at that point.

Jon.
--
    __  __ ____
   / / / // __ \ Jonathan Dwyer (FAX+6173654466) 
  / / / // / / / Department of Psychology
 / / / // / / /  The University of Queensland
/ /_/ // /_/ <   St. Lucia, 4072. AUSTRALIA 
\____/*\_____/*  jonathan@psych.psy.uq.oz.au  

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams)
Subject: Re: Moving during kicking
Organization: James Cook University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 02:44:29 GMT

In article <3602@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.040220.16319@hou.amoco.com> zwbm07@hou.amoco.com (Walter Moore) writes:
>>Actually, I've seen *VERY* effective front/side kicks used while retreating
>>from an oncoming attackers, particularly by TKD artists. The back kick 
>
>	They run away, then reverse direction or stop and kick.  Not the 
>same as kicking while retreating.

I can kick off my back leg while retreating.  If your balance is good,
it is quite possible.

-- 
Colin Adams       Honours Student - James Cook University of North Queensland
  "And if I seem a little strange, well that's because I am." - The Smiths
From: fnord@panix.com (Cliff Heller)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Query: Gung fu in New York City
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:44:40 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Right Bleedin' Church of Libertine Obfuscatology


I tried to reply privately, but it bounced...


In rec.martial-arts you write:

><In reference to Doug's (and my) teacher...>
>>You can also ask your Sifu how come he didn't participate in sponsoring the
>>Shao-Lin Monk's show this June.  I noticed that there were no other NYC
>>Kung-Fu schools participating in it - I have a strong suspicion that they
>>were not excluded.  Then tell me again how your school is above political
>>infighting.   

>Sifu Tai Yim *was* a principal sponsor of the Shaolin Monk's demo near DC and
>in Baltimore this past summer.  His school is not in New York, it is in
>Maryland, which explains why you did not see him at the New York demo.

But I asked about other NYC schools.  What is your point?  If doug studies
in DC, why is he even talking about schools in NYC?

>Many other schools from the DC area participated freely, to one degree or
>another.  I humbly suggest that if many schools came to the DC show, and
>only one came to the New York demo, that there is a higher degree of
>cooperation between schools in DC than in New York.

This is precisely the piont we were arguing about.  Obviously there is a
lesser degree of cooperation, although I am not about to start comparing DC
to NYC.  Many more than one school participated in the NY demo, although
most of them are run by former students of Wai Hong.  My point was and
still is that I believe the other schools were given an opportunity to
participate, and the fact that they did not shows that they are just as
much involved in political infighting as anyone else.

-- 
    / \      Reverend fnord                 | "King Kong died for your sins!"
   /   \     fnord@panix.com                | 
  / <0> \                                   | "Don't just eat a hamburger, 
 /_______\   Church of Obfuscatology, Inc.  |  eat the HELL out of it!"
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: Boxing...(once again...)
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 05:10:09 GMT

In article psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
>
>Although it is true that Cai Hong Xiang's record attests that he defeated
>some of the *very* best, this wasn't my point at all.  My point was to say 
>that western boxing would be a joke, almost wholely impotent against him.

Well, I know you didn't mean that Cai Hong Xiang, wearing 16 oz.
gloves, unable to kick, choke, lock, throw, or even hit below
the belt, would wipe up the ring with, say, Hollyfield. 
So, maybe you meant that your fighter wouldn't have to follow
boxing rules, but the boxer would?  And the likelyhood of your
guy prevailing over the boxer in this situation is the point 
you were trying to make?  That's it?
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Subject: A variation of Kyukushinkai karate. 
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 19:41:09 GMT


is anyone familiar with ishihara (or ashihara) ryu karate? i believe it 
is an offshoot of kyukushinkai. if i remember correctly, it is considered
to be a "harder" version of kyukushinkai and in some ways closer to 
muy thai, than karate.

curious,

mukund
From: tibbits@sisal.llnl.gov (Patrick Tibbits)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido and Shomen Attacks.
Date: 6 Sep 92 04:14:59 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

1" between palms, arms straight out from the shoulder.

Patrick
From: cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: A little on self defense...
Date: 14 Sep 92 12:45:34 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns, rec.martial-arts
Organization: James Cook University

In article <1992Sep14.001351.21247@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>>I would encourage people to learn them to keep in shape and feel good in
>>the mind and body, but as a practical mneans for fighting off a probably
>>armed interuder?  Nope.
>
>	I would agree.  Boxing, karate, etc are nice hobbies, but they
>are just recreation.  They cannot hope to make up the difference between 
>115 and 230 lbs, nor between one person and a group of thugs.

I disagree most strongly to this statement.  A lot of martial arts
can actually use the attacker's extra weight against them (e.g Aikido,
Ninjutsu).  Even at my old TKD class we used to regularly train against
multiple opponents.   Personally I have had one undesirable encounter
against multiple opponents (your hypothetical gang of thugs), and without
any MA training I would certainly have ended up in hospital.

>JD

-- 
Colin Adams       Honours Student - James Cook University of North Queensland
  "And if I seem a little strange, well that's because I am." - The Smiths
From: dude@losers.hacktic.nl
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re:Boxing and Kicks
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:04:44 GMT
Organisation: black mail inc.

In article  <1992Sep8.124548.13558@sei.cmu.edu>, Peter Capell writes:

 P> Now, think about one of my teacher's teachers--once again shamelessly mention
 P> him, Cai Hong Xiang (5-time national champion of mainland China, full-contact,
 P> Hua Mountain Shaolin-style kung fu).  Even at age 60, Lu Ping says he could
 P> easily kick my head faster than I could possibly guard.  This guy is a
 P> professional fighter, a "knock out specialist" as you say, who uses low-line
 P> kicks, high-line kicks and amazingly fast flurries of punches (probably better
 P> than a lot of professional boxers):
 P> 
 P> 	What can you possibly tell me about the real utility of boxing
 P> 	over MA?  That *not* using your feet is better?

 I'm not a boxer myself, but i've trained with them on occasions. The big 
 difference between boxers in general(!) and MA in general, is that boxers
 have an agressive attitude.  Not that they are technically superior, but 
 they won't stop, unless they're KO. They are fierce and keep on coming.
 I wouldn't say that boxers are better fighters, and they can be stopped,
 especially with lowline kicks, but when they hit, they hit (and it hurts)..
 Some MA schools will learn you how to hit right, some won't.
 Most boxing schools, however, will. After all, it's all they have.
From: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM (Garth)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: conflict avoidance
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:11:17 GMT
Reply-To: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: dojo.west.sun.com

This information is several years old, but:

    Bay Area Model Mugging, 3410 Devon Way, Redwood City, CA 94061 (415) 342-2266

Good luck, BAMM does the best classes of these type I have seen.


			= = = = = = =
  | Garth R. Doverspike		Sun Microsystems, S.E. Seattle |
  | garth.doverspike@west.sun.com			       |
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk ("Nigel G. Backhurst")
From: achou@plasma.icsl.ucla.edu (Albert Chou)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Silent or vocal sparring?
Date: 6 Sep 92 06:32:07 GMT
Organization: University of California at Los Angeles, EE Dept.

In article <lafm1vINNa3o@west.west.sun.com> garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM writes:
>guy I know could get this look on his face that made him look like
>a homicidal maniac.

There's a power in hsing i called (crudely) "make face cool like iron" that
was described to me by my teacher as being rather like this.  Our Sifu
demonstrated it for them, and my teacher said that it felt like Sifu no longer
recognized him, and wouldn't let anything stop him from going right through
another person.

Al
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM (Garth)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Silent or vocal sparring?
Date: 10 Sep 1992 20:12:18 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: dojo.west.sun.com

In article 13523@pogo.wv.tek.com, roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud) writes:
>In article <lafi8lINNa3o@west.west.sun.com> garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM writes:
>
>>
>>	Braething is an important part of fighting.  If Kiai's and
>>grunting get in the way of "proper" breathing, then they are not good.
>
> Kia is taught so that you breath properly.  You exhale while attacking
> and get creamed (cannot move) when you inhale.

Well, once again showing how different everything is, what you say
here doesn't hold true with my art(s).  From where I some from, if you
kiai'd every time you attacked (one for each attack), you would end
up fainting...we work on mutliple fast attacks...I don't know of too
many people who have enough breath to give 4 or 5 good kiais in a row
without inhaling...so kiaiing for at each attack would not work for us.

	-Garth



			= = = = = = =
  | Garth R. Doverspike		Sun Microsystems, S.E. Seattle |
  | garth.doverspike@west.sun.com			       |

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:23:56 GMT

In article <193hqgINNkk9@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> aaron@cse.ucsc.edu (Aaron Emigh) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.200233.4362@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>
	[hack, slash]

>>	But it seems that many have the attitude that violence is beneath them
>>	and they fallaciously infer from this false premise that the study of
>>	combat is therefore also beneath them and that they should therefore
>>	not have to do it.  They appear to feel that the world should be 
>>	intrinsically safe for them at all times and that they should not be
>>	obliged in any way to take measures to ensure their own safety and 
>>	well being.  Amusing.  
>>	
>>	It is also interesting to note that it is also often precisely these 
>>	same folks that complain so bitterly when they get their heads handed 
>>	to them by criminals in the street.  They usually look for somebody
>>	else to issue the assurances they want, typically the government.
>>
>
>Here, I think I disagree a little.  I don't have any scorn for the
>people you're talking about.  


	Nor I.  I just find it a bit droll.

>They are fundamentally right -- they
>really _shouldn't_ have to think about these things happening to them as
>they're minding their own business.  

	According to some ideal, perhaps so, but this does not
	wash in the East Tremont section of the Bronx. 

>It's something like refusing to take
>medication for a serious ailment on the grounds that you shouldn't be
>sick.  

	So much more to the point.  Doesn't matter what "should" be;  fact
	is you are sick and you have a choice to make: take medicine and
	perhaps get better, or do not take medicine and perhaps croak.
>
>Also, I know people who are morally opposed to using violence in any
>situation; they tend to question any involvement in the martial arts as
>a commitment to violence.  

	Easily stated by the ignorant.

>I tend to look at it in a different light:
>it's easy to choose nonviolence if it's all you know.  It's something
>like the story of the expulsion from the garden of Eden -- without
>knowing both good and bad, it's impossible to make a moral choice
>between them.  In the same way, having the physical skills to harm gives
>meaning to the choice not to harm anybody.

	I like this very much and agree.  Having the skills places 
	RESPONSIBILITY squarely with the wielder of such.  To choose under 
	such conditions means one must be responsible for the choice, as 
	opposed to whining about it being the will of some third party
	whose existence may not be substantiable. :)

	-Andy V.