HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kell@lark.jsc.nasa.gov (TED KELL)
Subject: Re: Okay, rec.scouting take two...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: kell@lark.jsc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Johnson Space Flight Center - Clear Lake City, TX, USA
Date:  2 SEP 92 08:13:04    

In article <1992Sep01.183732.4703@microsoft.com>, philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes...
>In article <1992Sep1.071516.12618@alf.uib.no> buboo@alf.uib.no (Ove Ruben R Olsen) writes:
>>[stuff that I felt like commenting on deleted for the sake of brevity]
>>
>>Good idea, but I would rather prefer:
>>    rec.scouting.policy.bsa	- BSA, and BSA only.
>>    rec.scouting.policy.misc	- Others. Minimal BSA stuff.
>>    rec.scouting.wisdom		- Non political.
> 
>      When we really get down to it, there isn't enough traffic
>on this group to warrant even a single new newsgroup, much less
>three.
>     I still think 'wisdom' is a poor choice of name, as well.
                     ^^^^^^
ditto here, how about knowledge.

> 
>					-Phil
> 
> 
>-- 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Phil Lafornara         				1 Microsoft Way         
>philipla@microsoft.com				Redmond, WA 98052-6399 
>Note:  Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: jce@cs.scarolina.edu (James C. Evans)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:08:26 GMT

gascan@dcst16.dc (Bill Gascoyne) writes:

>For those of you reading this someplace other than rec.scouting, please note that
>of the 21 posts I found today, ONE dealt with something other than this or a related
>thread.  This is not what I try to read this group for, and think I'm going to 
>unsubscribe for awhile and see if everyone whom you all have chased off (intentionally
>or not) comes back, and we can find each other in the midst of all these other posts
>to talk about all of the other aspects of actually running a Scout troop.

>Regretably, good-bye for now!

>---
>1. Bill Gascoyne

Give me a break.  Can't you read the subject lines?

There is obviously a lot of interest in these questions.  Why are you
trying to suppress it?

Chris Evans
jce@ocean.geol.scarolina.edu

Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2674 alt.discrimination:4038 chi.general:897 alt.atheism:16146 alt.politics.homosexuality:5589
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 29 Aug 92 14:55:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Summit NJ

Evelyn C. Leeper writes:

>It is only out of an excessive sense of honesty that I point out that
>Stan is espousing hate in the name of Judaism rather than
>Christianity.  I as a Jew am as appalled by Stan's posts as much as
>most Christians are by Pat Robertson's ravings, but I cannot let you
>blame the Christians or Christianity for this one.

Let me clarify a few points and issues here.

I am reading all these postings on rec.scouting and am responding to
them on that group consistent with the charter of that group.

The ONLY issue that I am responding to is BSA's exclusion of homosexuals
from membership.  The BSA position on this has been explained and
defended.  There is a code of conduct that Scouts must subscribe to
and "morally straight" is part of the code. I personally feel that the
Scout Oath and Law do represent positive, laudable, standards of behavior.
Also, it does NOT represent gay-bashing, as such behavior would be a
violation of other points of the Oath and Law; in fact, they make
absolutely no mention of homosexuality, atheism, or any other behavior,
except as they relate to eligibility for membership in BSA.

Clearly, the gay rights agenda, as I understand it, is that sexual
preference should not matter in anything, as such behavior is
perfectly normal and thus should not be labelled as immoral. Fine,
but that's only one point of view; another point of view is that our
religions teach us that we can control our behavior, that we are above
our animal instincts, and that there are certain things that God
expects from us.  Now, these two points are going to clash in religious
based organizations, such as BSA as well as in church or synagogue youth
groups.  I mean, in the same way that I would not want any adult leader
in my son's Boy Scout Troop to live an openly immoral lifestyle (and
this also includes "sleeping around"), because there is no way that I'd
want teenage boys to be given the impression that such behavior is
"correct", I would also expect heavy parental resistance to a synagogue
youth group leader who is married to a non-Jew (as such marriages are
prohibited by traditional Jewish law), or to my wanting to be a youth
group leader at the local church.
-- 
Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
From: rickc@pogo.wv.tek.com (Rick Clements)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: What's the role of the Pack Committee Chair vs. Cubmaster
Date: 1 Sep 92 05:05:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.


In article <1992Aug31.205940.25518@nmrdc1.nmrdc.nnmc.navy.mil> rdc30@nmrdc1.nmrdc.nnmc.navy.mil (LCDR Michael E. Dobson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.133921.4792@linus.mitre.org> edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit) writes:
>>I am curious how different packs split the work between the committee
>>chair and the cubmaster.  I was just "promoted" to cubmaster, and the
>>formerly ineffective cubmaster has moved into committee chair as a
>>"temporary".  

In our pack, the Scoutmaster runs the Pack meetings.  The Committee Chairman
runs the committee meetings.  We have a Den Leader Coach that recruits and
helps the Den Leaders.  That's not to say people don't help in other areas.
(Last year, we had a hard time geting Den Leaders.  So, everyone gave a try
at recruiting Den Leaders.)

>>My first concern is to rebuild pack leadership.  This is especially
>>important as the pack has not recovered from the loss of the old pack
>>leadership of 1.5 yrs ago and I'll be moving up to Boy Scouts in
>>March.  I'd hate to see the pack fall apart.

If your current Chairman is a temporary, try got get someone to take over
as soon as possible.  Or, recruit an assistant who will take over next year.
Get an Asst. Cubmaster and make sure that s/he is ready to take over next year.
Find someone who can be a Den Leader Coach for next year.  This needs to be
someone who has been Den Leader for a few years.  The new leaders like to hear,
"this worked well for me."

>One thing I've always been taught in Leaders Training is that the Cubmaster
>and Den Leaders work for the Committee and thus the Committee Chairman is
>probably the most important position in the Pack.  You will notice on the

The COR approves the Committee Chairma.  That would make him/her more
important by your logic.  I don't believe the highest ranking leader is
the most important.  I believe importance is related to closeness to the boys.
I rank them as Den Leader, Cubmaster, Chairman, Comittee and COR.

Rick Clements
Asst. Webelos Leader/ Asst. Cubmaster
-- 
Rick Clements (RickC@pogo.WV.TEK.COM)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Je
From: jkusters@zeus.calpoly.edu (Chrome Jester)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 03:13:09 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Keywords: story sounds fishy

daveh@ka3uzr.UUCP (Dave Hultberg  ) divulges:
->
->I think there is something wrong with your story here.  The Order of the 
->Arrow is an honor camping society and absolutely nothing to do with 
->disciplining scouts or scouters.  Even Law Enforcement Explorer Posts are 
->forbidden to participate in detaining anyone.  I also don't see how your 
->friend could be forced to attend any hearing.  The unit committee or the 
->council could invite him to the meeting, but they have no legal powers to 
->compell anyone to attend.  Having said that, being a leader in the BSA is 
->not a right.  You serve at the pleasure of your chartering organization and 
->the BSA organization.  A decision of the local council can also be appealed 
->to the national council.  If you friend is gay there isn't much chance that 
->national would reinstate him.  I'm sorry for the pain that this has caused 
->him, but I also think you have the story at least a little mixed up.

This is what was reported to me first hand by him.  Now, either you are
calling me a liar or you are calling my friend a liar.  I do not appreciate
either claim.  And from what I've seen of the Order of the Arrow and
Scouting in general (having been involved in both), I don't find the story
hard to believe at all.  There were a number of leaders and memebers in both
organizations when I was involved that were so wrapped up in their own
self-importantance that I could easily see them over-stepping the bounds
when they felt they needed to (whether or not they were right).

The point of the article, however, was not to engender pity for my friend,
but rather to show how BSA is wasting talent and ability that it already has
by rudely kicking them out for no reason other than fear and a sense of
"moral indignation".

JOhn.

-- 
/-John A Kusters, jr.--------------------------------------------------- ______
| jkusters@ares.calpoly.edu   b0- f- w g- s-- r p++                      \    /
Silence keeps us all in darkness, We can't change things overnight;       \  /
But we can shed a little light, Be Political not Polite! -Romanovsky & Phillips
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: mayne@dup.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 16:42:42 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.160107.4498@spss.com> bobhays@spss.com (Bob Hays) writes:
>  Perhaps we should adopt some concept that "society
>exists to allow its members to exist and hopefully florish."...
>
>I'd suggest starting with some Locke and perhaps a few Utilitarian
>authors.  Then we could discuss how Existentialism plays into the
>"game" and perhaps even talk a little about benevolent despotism.

It may sound silly to throw such philosophers into this rather low
brow discussions, but I do believe that some appropriate consideration
of the social utility of ethical standards should be included in
discussions of the Scout Law and standards. Teachings of what is
"morally straight" should not rest only on religion. The only point
of religion on which all scouts must agree is that the word "God"
must be used somewhere.

>However, overall, I think the goal of our little corner of the world
>(the US) is to provide as open a society as possible to provide as
>much growth as possible for as many people as possible while keeping
>interactions of the people within some limits (these limits being
>based mostly on economic and physical rules for competition).

I like Thomas Jefferson's statement of the justificaton and role
of government: "...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That
to secure these rights governments are instituted...". Considering the
earlier mention of Locke it is worth remembering, and pointing out to
scouts in the USA, that the philosophy and some of the phrases behind
the founding of the USA was based in part on Locke, who wrote of "life,
liberty, and property" almost a century before Jefferson.

Bill Mayne

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: dlm@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu (Deborah Maraziti (aka Spacee))
Subject: Outdoor Games was Re: What's the use in having this group???
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:33:30 GMT

In article <bxhn#6n@lynx.unm.edu> anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>>On a scouting note. does anyone have a suggestion for a wide area game
>>(other than capture the flag) suitable for senior cubs (age 9). Our
>>fall camp is in a semi wooded area. 

My Girl Scout troop really liked a game I threw together to teach them about
layered clothing. Gather a pile of assorted clothing, including socks, shoes,
hats, etc.  Divide the clothing "evenly" into piles (ie pair of pants
in each pile, mittens in each pile, etc).  Make sure the clothes are large
enough that the outer layers can fit over the other layers.  Divide the
group into teams.  Divide the teams in half and place one half near the 
pile of clothes, the other about 50 feet away.  At a signal, the first
member of each team "dresses" in the clothing of the pile and gallops
the 50 feet to the other side, "undresses" and another team member 
puts on the clothes.  As long as there are no rocks in the way,
this game can be really fun to play (and watch!).

Debbie
 

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spacee                            ~     I'm conducting a search for a
dlm@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu        ~     planet made of chocolate.
(astronomer in lace)              ~     Funding is hard to come by... 
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2813 alt.discrimination:4118 chi.general:963 alt.atheism:16531 alt.politics.homosexuality:5686
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:48:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park




In article <5108@news.duke.edu> infante@acpub.duke.edu (Andrew  Infante) writes:
>
>Anyone whois is _human_ should be allowed the same _rights_ as all humans, 
>up until the point where what the person does _adversely_ affects others,
>i.e. hurts them (and no, hets are not being _hurt_ by homosexuals' 
>activities, if a het _thinks_ that the sight of homosexuals is indeed
>hurting them, turn you fucking head, het, it's not your concern anyway!)
>

If all humans, just for being humans, would have the same rights as all 
other humans, there would not be any sense in talking about rights,
Rights are based on the fact that not all humans have rights just because they
are humans, but based on the fact that humans are different from each other.

So, because we are not equal, some people have to be protected from other peopleand then, we have rights. So, not all humans have the same rights as other
humans.,
Whatever is applicable to all humans, is something assume per se and does not
require a legal right. Like your right to breath.

So, erasing the distinction between human beings does not help the cause 
for equality, but actually, hurts it a lot. Because we need to understand 
where are we different in order to act on that.
Men are no women, and women are not men, that is why we have to have 
rights that concern women and not men, like the right to choose about their
bodies. An so on.

AAP





>And yes, I'm het.
>
>later.
>
>andy.
From: achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: TI Semiconductor Process and Design Center
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 19:57:00 GMT

No argument there. Let's drop this thread. Seems inappropriate for this 
newsgroup. I would be glad to reply by e-mail if desired.

Jeff Achenbach
achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com

Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2663 alt.discrimination:4035 chi.general:893 alt.atheism:16124 alt.politics.homosexuality:5585
From: kadie@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:03:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:

>    As for the BSA, they are fully aware of the United Way's policy,
>and they continue to accept the funds.  I guess that falls under
>the "A Scout is honest" part, huh?

"It would be wonderful to be that wealthy" 
     - BSA Chicago Council spokeswomen Susan Teplinski

(I'm enclosing the full paragraphs so that context is clear.)

- Carl

==== From the Chicago Tribune, Eric Zorn's column, April 16, 1992 ==

"To the threat of lost funding the Scouts have said, 'Our values are
not for sale.'

Such proud righeousness, interestingly enough, has not prompted the
Scouts to decline funds offered by organizations that prohibit the
exclusionary practices they say are the counerstone of the
organization. 'It would be wonderful to be that wealthy,' said Chicago
Council spokeswoman Susan Teplinski."
=====================================================================

-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Okay, rec.scouting split - I'll help
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 16:00:57 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Sep4.095317.1@fnboot.fnal.gov>, stolz@fnboot.fnal.gov writes:

|> I am for the 2-way split also.  Either .methods or .wisdom is fine with me.
|> I have never done a RFD before, and don't have lots of time, but rec.scouting
|> is important enough to me to offer to do or help with them.   Can someone, 
|> (Danny?, Carl?, another more experienced soul?) tell me what needs to be done?
|> 
I'm opposed to a split.  There isn't a large volume of posting
on rec.scouting.   And I don't believe that policy issues and
program issues are that separable.  All I see is that some
folks are uncomfortable with the fact that some other folks
are opposing one particular policy, and would like to move
the discussion off the board.  If the split occurred, I don't
believe that issues like attendance requirements for advancement
will be moved over to policy, where in theory they belong.

I think the whole discussion about a split is just a pretext
to quarantine the discussions about discrimination.  If it
comes to a vote, I would vote no.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: What's the use in having this group???
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 17:49:35 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

>I agree with Robert Czernkowski. The homosexual/athiest in the BSA issues are 
>of interest only in the USA. I'm interested in scouting when I read this group,
>not american politics. My KILL file for rec scouting is larger than the
>one I have for soc.history. If the americans out there were to follow
>the line about 'a scout is courteous' they would create a new group
>rec.scouting.bsa for their discssions, and in the interim, ensure that
>their aritcles have a distribution of usa.
 Well, I agree with you to an extent, I have no qualms about a second 
group, but kill files are easy, and this issue does affect scouting on 
a worldwide basis.  A question to you, is how do y'all feel about the 
issue for those in other countries?  Are gays accepted in your scouting
programs?  
  An entire host of possible programs can occur if the BSA is allowed to
continue with this policy.  For example, what if an HIV+ scout from 
another country wants to come to an event here in the states.  Right now 
they couldn't because of the immigration laws in the US, but what about 
if that changes.

>
>On a scouting note. does anyone have a suggestion for a wide area game
>(other than capture the flag) suitable for senior cubs (age 9). Our
>fall camp is in a semi wooded area. 
 In this question, we used to play a game in my troop called "Stalking"
where one person was "it" and everyone else had to try to sneak up on them.
Of course, if the IT caught someone else, they were sent to a designated
area to start over.  This works best on a slope, but is fine on a flat
wooded area as well.  If you have a lot of scouts, split it up into 
different areas or zones for people to stalk multiple It's.  (when an IT
is captured, the capturer becomes the IT and the It is sent to the 
designated beginning.)
>
>-- 
>Bob Cano           Bell-Northern Research    | When all else fails,   
>rcano@.bnr.ca      P.O. Box 3511, Stn. C     | read the instructions.
>                   Ottawa, Ontario, Canada   | 
>(613)763 4086      K1Y 4H7                   |   

Dominick V. Zurlo
WWW

These are my opinions, and no one elses.  
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:07:32 GMT

In article <BtpFu6.Lxs@acsu.buffalo.edu> omhoward@acsu.buffalo.edu (The God-Bitch Emperor of Snuggle Bunnies) writes:
>Stan,
>    I'd never thought I'd say this to anyone:  Welcome to my kill
>file.  I've watched you espouse hate in every direction in the name of
>christianity constantly.  


The saddest thing is that he spews hate in the name of judaism, not 
christianity.  You'd think he'd know better.  I guess its ok for him
to say these things, and to condemn us evil homos, as long as he doesn't do
anything to us to us directly.  I wonder what he would think of jew-hating
germans who claim innocence of the atrocities of the Nazis, because
well they didn't actually *DO* anything.  sad and sickening.


Ry Schwark
ry@usl.com
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2798 alt.discrimination:4107 alt.atheism:16499 alt.politics.homosexuality:5676
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 4 Sep 92 00:43:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <hill.715545655@galena12> hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
>On the other side of the coin, I'd like see quantitative analysis that
>proves that it is not a learned behavior. There are lots of influences in
>our society.

There really isn't any hard evidence either way, depending on what you
mean by "it".  What you do have are the first-person reports of gay people
who frequently state "I was always this way."  In any event, I think the
entire question is both moronic and meaningless.  Is "heterosexuality"
learned behavior?  Well, yes, if you're referring to teenage dating behavior
and the tendency of net.dweebs searching for a mate to post to alt.personals
soliciting the attentions of "ladies".  But did they "learn" to find the
opposite sex attractive in the first place?  How about yourself?

>If anyone with low self-esteem and low self-worth manages to
>find a person or group that will make him feel important and powerful, that
>person will gravitate toward the other person or group and tend to follow
>those practices that raise his ense of worth in the eyes of the others.

You mean like Scouting or Christianity, I presume.  You're in a dream
world if you think such a stupid comment applies to gay people in this
fictitious "gay community" boogeyman you've created in your mind.

>>Finally, Get off your high horse. Who are you to judge a person's humanity?
>I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying that everyone should be treated with
>justice and dignity based on their humanity and nothing else. 

Snort.  And she's not joking either.  Scary.
Too bad they don't listen to themselves.

Scout Leader (or Scout): "Hey, what happened to justice and dignity based on
			 my humanity???"
Fraulein Hill:		 "It's the gas chamber for you, faggot--you're outa
			 here."
-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer