Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hellas
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 23:03:01 EST
Reply-To:     "GEORGIOS A. SAVOPULOS" <GSAVOPUL@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "GEORGIOS A. SAVOPULOS" <GSAVOPUL@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Ioustiviavos : Merikes dieukrivnseis...

>>                       O Ioustiviavos avebnke sto 0rovo tou Buzavtiou
>> to 526-527 mX, evw to teleutaio keimevo pou exei grafei stnv Aiguptiakn
>> 'dnmotikn' xrovologeitai to 450 mX. H xrovikn diafora einai emfavns.
>> O Ioustiviavos, oxi movo dev eixe gevvn0ei akoma, alla to pi0avotero
>> eivai oti dev eixe gevvn0ei oute o pateras tou !!!!

>Erwtnsn 1. Ti evvoeis otav grafeis oti to teleutaio keimevo "xrovolognte"
>to 450 mX;Eivai gvwsto oti ta keimeva stamatouv va emfavizovtai s'aftn
>tn glwssa aftn tnv periodo,n mexri aftn tn xrovologia yparxouv
>tetoia keimeva sta xeria mas;Gvwrizoume epi paradigmati oti o Ioustiviavos
>dev katestrepse oti keimevo graftnke meta to 450,kai oti dev sfax0nkav
>oloi oi daskaloi apo to 450 kai meta;Dwse mas av eivai dyvatov
>tn sxetikn bibliografia sou.

   Kat' arxas euxaristw gia tnv erwtnsn, mias kai to sugkekrimevo
snmeio xreiazetai -isws- epavadiatupwsn. Auto pou evvow, einai oti apo
ola ta gvwsta se emas -kai ara diasw0evta- keimeva pou exouv grafei
stnv 'dnmotikn', to pio prosfato eivai tou 450 mX. Fusika, auto dev
snmaivei oti stamatnsav va grafovtai keimeva stn grafn autn, alla AN
uparxouv dev ta exoume brei. H elleipsn autn pavtws, deixvei oti se
sxesn me alles periodous n 'dnmotikn' eixe arxisei va spavizei...
Auto allwste eivai 0ema ma0nmatikwv: osa perissotera keimeva uparxouv,
toso megalutern 0a eivai kai n pi0avotnta va broume kapoio apo auta.
  Twra, n pi0avotnta o Ioustiviavos va katestrepse ola ta keimeva apo
to 450 mX kai meta eivai mallov amelntea. Poio logo eixe gia va
afnsei ta upoloipa; H prwsopikn mou apopsn, eivai oti n grafn apla
esbnse. Sigoura kapoioi 'bon0nsav' se auto, alla o Ioustiviavos dev
ntav evas apo autous...
  Oso gia tn snmasia tou olou zntnmatos, emeva dev me evoxlnse n
e3afavisn tns grafns autn ka0'eautn, alla to oti kavevas de frovtise
va diaswsei tn fwvntikn 'timn' twv sumbolwv tns. Av auto eixe givei,
de 0a xreiazomastav meletes merikwv aiwvwv gia va mporesoume va
diabasoume ta keimeva auta. Fusika, kai stnv periptwsn pou auto eixe
givei, to pio pi0avo 0a ntav ta arxeia auta va fulassovtav stnv
biblio0nkn tns Ale3avdreias...
  Telos gia tn bibliografia, oi xrovologies eivai apo to:

        READING THE PAST -
	ANCIENT WRITING FROM THE CUNEIFORM TO THE ALPHABET
	Introduced by J.T. Hooker  ,C 1990
	UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS/BRITISH MUSEUM


>> Apo tnv Ellnvistikn epoxn kai meta, oi Aiguptioi eixav arxisei va
>> xrnsimopoiouv to koptiko alfabnto,to opoio basizetai sto Ellnviko alla
>> periexei merika pros0eta grammata. To alfabnto auto xrnsimopoieitai
>> akoma apo tnv koptikn ekklnsia tns Aiguptou. To oti to koptiko alfabnto
>> 0a epikratouse telika einai bebaio (3erei mnpws kavevas Ellnvas va
>> grafei se grammikn B' ;;)

> Erwtnsn 2.Giati ntav bebain n epikratnsn tou koptikou alfabntou;Dwse mas
>epixnrnmata.Apla kai movo to mege0os tns dyskolias  dev eivai safes av katastei
>aftn tnv allagn bebain.Gia paradeigma oi kivezoi dev exou akoma kai
>snmera dytikou typou alfabnto(grafn 0esns).

  Gevika, to pososto twv Aiguptiwv pou gvwrizav va grafouv ntav polu
mikro. Merikes ektimnseis to avebazouv sto 1% tnv epoxn twv Faraw, evw
tnv epoxn twv Ptolemaiwv pou n episnmn glwssa ntav ta Ellnvika eftave
to 10%. Bebaia, sav episnmn glwssa tou kratous, n Ellnvikn didaskovtav
sta dnmosia sxoleia, kai sav fusikn suvepeia ntav polu pio eukolo gia
tous perissoterous Aiguptious va ma0ouv va grafouv me to Ellnviko
alfabnto para me tn dnmotikn. Etsi, otav emfavistnke to koptiko
alfabhto oi Aiguptioi ntav etoimoi va to dextouv giati eixav ndn
e3oikeiw0ei me to Ellnviko alfabnto kai n allagn dev tous faivovtav
toso fobern. Allwste to alfabnto eixe kai ta pleovektnmata tou evavti
tns dnmotikns. Gia paradeigma stnv dnmotikn dev upnrxav fwvnevta.
Avti gia tn le3n "katastasn" oi Aiguptioi egrafav "ktsts" (dnladn
mono ta sumfwva). Eivai favero oti n grafn tous me ta dedomeva tns
epoxns ntav 3eperasmevn kai sav proodeutikos laos tnv alla3av.
  H Kivezikn grafn twra eivai me "ideogramata" (sumbolo kai le3n)
kai eivai diaforetikn toso apo tnv Aiguptiakn pou ntav "sullabikn"
(ta sumbola eixav "fwvntikn timn") oso kai apo tn dikn mas grammikn B',
n opoia -av kai "sullabikn"- avtiproswpeue kai ta fwvnevta opws polu
swsta egrapse kai o A.Rwmavos prox0es.
   H apopsn mou pavtws eivai oti arga n grngora oi Kinezoi 0a
avagkastouv va uio0etisouv eva alfabntiko sustnma gia ka0ara
praktikous logous (p.x dev prokeitai pote va bgouv grafomnxaves n
upologistes pou va "snkwvouv" ta Kivezika logw tou terastiou
ari0mou sumbolwv (peripou 8000).
   Oi logoi pou tous w0ouv stn diatnrnsn tns uparxousas katastasns
eivai kuriws to megalo pln0os dialektwv (Mandarin,Cantonese ktl)
kai o suvtnritismos tous. Gia tis dialektous isxuei to akolou0o
skeptiko : Oloi oi katoikoi tns Kivas xrnsimopoiouv to idio
sustnma grafns kai mporouv va epikoivwvouv grapta xwris megales
duskolies. Proforika omws uparxei problnma. Av loipov alla3ouv
sustnma grafns, isws kapoioi pln0usmoi arxisouv va voiw0ouv ligotero
Kivezoi...
  Oso gia to suvtnritismo, legetai -mallov or0a- oti n isxurotern
duvamn sto sumpav eivai n adraveia. Allwste, gia va kavw kai mia
sugkrisn me ta dika mas, enw OLOI oi upoloipoi Ellnves eixav
uio0etisei to alfabnto, oi Ellnves tns Kuprou xrnsimopoiousav akoma
mia morfn grammikns B' mexri kai tnv Ellnvistikn epoxn ...


>>   Ta gegovota sta opoia avaferesai einai progevvestera, kai evdexomeva
>> aforouv tov 0eodwsio (375 mX), epi epoxns tou opoiou -av dev me apata
>> n mvnmn mou- katargn0nkav oi Olumpiakoi agwves, ekleisav oi filosofikes
>> sxoles tns A0nvas kai egive n sfagn twv 9000 stov ippodromo tns
>> 0essalovikns.

>Erwtnsn 3.Afou o 0eodosios esfakse 9000 av0rwpous(opws grafeis)giati
>tov apokaloume akoma mega;

  Arxika, 0a n0ela va dior0wsw duo avakribeies mou : O 0eodwsios
ev0rovistnke to 379 mX, kai oi filosofikes sxoles ekleisav to 529 mX
epi Ioustiviavou (auta gia tnv periptwsn pou n prongoumevn dior0wsn
mou dev eftase stn lista).
  O ari0mos 9000 pou avafera prepei va eivai proseggistikos. De
favtazomai oti ka0nse kaveis va metrnsei ta ptwmata ...
Pavtws, to oti to gegovos exei givei eivai mallov dedomevo mias kai
to diabasa se odngo spoudwv tou Pavepistnmiou tns 0essalovikns.
   Tn logikn tns apofasns -av mporei kaveis va milnsei gia tetoia-
dev tn gvwrizw. Telos o titlos 'Megas' einai pi0avo va ofeiletai
sto gegovos oti katafere va diatnrisei tnv Avatolikn Rwmaikn
Autokratoria ev zwn. O prokatoxos tou Balns skotw0nke stn maxn
tns Avdriavoupolns polemwvtas evavtia stous Busigot0ous to 378 mX.
(autos eivai o logos pou ekava tn dior0wsn stn xrovologia pou
eixa dwsei stnv arxn). Otav o 0eodwsios avebnke sto 0rovo, n
katastasn ntav mallov krisimn gia tnv idia tnv upar3n tou kratous...
>>
>>   Giwrgos Sabbopoulos
>>  A0erapeuta Povtios...
>>
>Avtwvns Tsolomitis
>Tmnma Ma0nmatikwv
>The Ohio State University &
>Texas A&M University.


  Giwrgos Sabbopoulos
 A0erapeuta Povtios...
						(suvexizw sto epomevo)
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