HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (Piglet)
Subject: Re: "equal" or "same" roles
Organization: who, me?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:36:10 GMT

In article <1h37q7INNp9f@hp-col.col.hp.com> reykja@col.hp.com (Reykja Sigurdsson) writes:
>You are still implying that one unit has more value than another. 
>Example: a Queer Nation kiss-in is worth three apples, writing letters
>is worth 2 oranges and so on. Ultimately, it will still come down to 
>which of the 'rewards' has more value. 


So, what's the exchange rate between apples and oranges?  Or oranges
and pineapples??  That's exactly Ciaran's point.  Any value assignment
in these activities is MEANINGLESS!!!  The only difference is whether
you prefer apples to pineapples, and so which activity YOU'RE willing
to spend time on...


Piglet, wondering how anyone could have missed the blatant apples/
        oranges motif, in spite of the obfuscatory (but tasty) pineapple
From: williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Understanding
Date: 24 Dec 1992 17:38:33 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
Reply-To: williamt@athena.Eng.sun.com (Dances with Drums)
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena

In article <MUFFY.92Dec23080635@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>
>>Feminism isn't evil - but, IMHO and the opinion of many others (including
>>noted feminists), it has become the worst of all possible worlds -
>>non-essential.  Out of touch with the common womyn.  Elitist, at times.
>>Like most philosophies, it has evolved, and like most large constructs
>>its lost touch with its constituents.
>
>You mean that it is elitist to think that women should be given the
>opportunity to make their own choices, rather than being coerced and
>impeded by society?  This is the first I have heard of that.  Could you
>please explain to me how this is elitist?
>
>Muffy
----
	I would like to think it is the 'word' feminist that is misunderstood
by many.  Most people's exposure to feminism is what they see in the media.
Media likes to cover extreemes -- so Dworkin and MacKinnon become the
archetypical feminists.  Since they have quotes to the effect that men are
unnecessary, all male-female sex is rape, etc, most people think they
are loonie-toons.  Since we are told they are 'leaders' in the feminist
movement, we see what feminism is about from these extremes.

	A typical example was Quad-S: Society for the Scientific Study of
Sexuality.  They heard my SO was in women's studies at USCS and said "oh
no, you're not a feminist are you?"  Their experience with feminism is
as a force that desires to shut down sexuality and/or censure most forms
of sexuality.  

    My SO will tell me that feminism is about equality and/or
acceptancefor all people, not just women.  I point out that the very name
feminism relates to women -- she concedes this, saying that is because
the movement was started by women to address the inequities of women, but
the reality is that it is more than that.

	As near as I can tell, defining feminism is like defining paganism,
or a witch.  You ask N different 'members' of the group and you will
get O (where O >= N) different answers.

william
--
1935 will go down in history.  For the first time, a civilized nation has
full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient,
and the world will follow our lead into the future.
                         --Adolf Hitler
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:39:10 EST
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Purity
 <1993Jan1.083649.13361@netcom.com> <93001.140156SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
 <C071s6.H0G@demon.co.uk>

In article <C071s6.H0G@demon.co.uk>, gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
says:
>
>In article <93001.140156SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon
><SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>:Getting to be too much to quote.
>:
>:My favourite, if grammatically incorrect, response to 'what are you?'
>:questions is 'a people'.
>
>Wow!  You have a country all to yourself?! :)
>
>G

No, no, that would make me an instance of a People.

Besides, isn't there some deep quote about all of us dwelling
in our own country?

Graydon
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 14:01:56 EST
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Purity
 <93001.010248SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <1993Jan1.083649.13361@netcom.com>

Getting to be too much to quote.

My favourite, if grammatically incorrect, response to 'what are you?'
questions is 'a people'.  If they stop blinking after 5 seconds or
don't scream at you for being a wiseass you're probably ok.

If I can be semantically fussy, Jeff, the problem is *not* that you're
being issued with a label, it's that you're being chucked into a bin
(presumably the bin labeled 'bi').  The bin has a contents list on
the front; for many people, the list includes things like 'an even more
depraved instance of Them', 'morally deficent', or even 'will try
anything once'.  This list is a cultural artifact most of the time;
hunting down and closely examining all of these lists is a lot of work,
and most people don't bother to do it.

If people really *did* use labels, and didn't make assumptions when
assigning the labels, we'd be a lot better off.  For example, I can
put a label on the (very small) memory node marked 'things I know
about Jeff' that says 'presently considers himself bi'.  This says
almost nothing about what you are actually interested in; it could be
mostly guys with tatoos and long black beards, it could be mostly
women who are frequently gowned in mystic samite white, or it could
be something I'm (vanilla person that I am) never going to imagine.

Changing one's habits of thought to sort-by-label rather than
to assign-a-bin-and-check-the-contents-list is work, lots of it.
Most lesbigay people I've met have had to make at least some of
this change because they're faced with the contents list for
the bin they're supposed to be in and their self perception, and
the two don't match at all.

The other thing is that sticking people in bins works just fine
in fairly homogeneous enviroments, which most eviroments are.
It leads to a narrow view of the world and no good poetry known to
me. (which last is a significant condemnation.)


Graydon
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: AS long as we are hugging...
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:51:04 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.021922.24009@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> barlow@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu (Rebel) writes:
:Well I thought that if Roy could ask for a hug then I could to...God knows I
:need one today....SO how about it, can a muffin get a hug?

No.

Oh, all right, I lied.

*MuFFinHuG*

::-) Jen
G
[Hey Lar, you still around?  Do we know this fresh muffin?]
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: shogan@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (Empress Sue)
Subject: Okay...okay...here is an official demuffin...
Reply-To: shogan@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 17:27:55 GMT

HI!

Oooops, I mean Hi.  I realize that I am doing this when some people 
are away.  Not on purpose, you understand...just coincidence...really.
I am kinda shy, though...I thought I would peek in and say that I've
been lurking since June, or thereabouts, oh yeah, this is also the 
first time I've read the list down to zero postings!

(Hi Ciaran...I did it...all bi myself =-).  Thanks for the encouragement!).
I've enjoyed reading all of you, and even sent mail to some...

<GENERALIZATION ON>  This was the first place I found, where there were
people who were talking about topics in which I had no experience.
You let me camp out and watch you play and fight and make up.  You let 
me see you as people who questioned, people who sometimes were and 
sometimes weren't comfortable with who you are.<GENERALIZATION OFF>

I've needed to know that you were there.  Even if I didn't have the 
courage to post myself yet, other people asked the questions for me.  
You gave me the courage to actually acknowledge that: I *might* be bi, 
I *think* I'm bi, I *am* bi.  You gave me the courage to start coming 
out to people: friends, aunts, parents, then sibs.  I wrote some 
private e-mail to people.  I joined a mailing list.  I sent mail to 
ECBN.  I actually met some other bi people =-0 !  I am starting my
network.  Thanks!

It was thanks to you that I got to overhear my (extremely, very, etc. 
conservative) brother say to my mother that I have better taste in 
women than in men <giggle>.

Oh, hugs would be welcome...if you are so inclined...

Sue (Banimpire)
S.M. Hogan   | IHP/Heller School/Rm. G17/Brandeis University
617/736-3951 | Waltham, MA 02254-9110     [Add Disclaimer Here]
    /-------------------------------------------------------------\
  /|\      A simple formula for avoiding confusion is to never    /|\ 
<<<*>>>         let yourself get befuddled by an unclear        <<<*>>>
  \|/        understanding of what you're mixed up about. |-D     \|/
    \-------------------------------------------------------------/
   When patterns are broken, new worlds emerge. --> Tuli Kupferberg
Xref: sparky soc.bi:17098 soc.motss:53326
From: arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:53:49 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <1992Dec21.193904.24017@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:

>The assumption that we have to get people to agree with us to get
>them to change their behavior is wrong.  I've seen it here in the
>workplace.  People are told not to tell sexist jokes, and I know
>several people who do not understand why and disagree, but because
>they'll catch heat if they do, they don't. 

Are you sure that the jokes aren't sometimes funny ones, and
that people aren't being intimated even out of simple and
inoffensive humour?

Their silence isn't proof of consent, you know. :-)
--
Gus Rodgers,  Dept. of Computer Science, |  [Profound thought for 1993]
Queen Mary & Westfield College, Mile End |     "Philishave is about
Road, London, England.   +44 71 975 5241 |      personal choice" 
E-mail (JANET):   arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk |             -- TV advert
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: Selective Memory?
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:30:46 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.191327.20983@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>I think most of the worst cases are cross-posts from soc.motss
>(except for the "slave" thread and its spinoffs).

Yeah <sigh>.

>The problem is that soc.bi and soc.motss have similar areas of
>interests but very different cultures. In particular, the level
>of free-floating hostility is much higher on soc.motss. One
>antidote is to put a lot of soc.bi ESacharine in the crossposted
>threads (you know, ESnuggles, ENibbles, etc.). That should drive
>off most of the chronically angry.

It's not saccharine, Andrew.  This place really is (or has been)
one of the most pleasant, supportive, strengthening environments
that I've ever e-encountered.  That's not due to the sweet words;
it's the people here are, on the whole, pleasant, supportive and
strengthening, and that comes out in the way they interact.

It's honey in the cake, not sugar icing.

>This is a problem for some of us; I suppose I might be called an
>EDiabetic, since I have a very low tolerance for ESyrup. Whenever
>someone's post says something like "This is my first post here,
>but" or "What's a muffin, anyway?" I hit 'k' posthaste. And the
>first time I posted here, I said nothing about muffinhood;
>somehow I snuck through unscathed.

Here, have some E-hypoglycaemics and lie down...

Snuck?  but didn't some of us know you from soc.motss before
you appeared here?

				Kay
-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 23:36:33 GMT
Organization: (speaking only for myself from Austin, Texas)

In article <BznGFH.KBq@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>In article <BzM7s7.22DL@austin.ibm.com> alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss) writes:
>
>>In article <BzInI2.7Bn@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>
>>>However, [Melinda] has observed that the
>>>most clueless, inappropriate, and nonsensical suggestions are proposed
>>>almost exclusively by men.
>>
>>This just *can't* be true, since it can be shown that Andrea
>>Dworkin is not a man.
>
>Assuming for the moment that Andrea Dworkin's suggestions are
>clueless, inappropriate, and nonsensical (and it's been my experience
>that feminists who are perceived to be such are usually maligned by a
>hysterical, incredibly myopic media)

Not in this case, gender-neutral-dude.  Obviously you have never
read Ms. Dworkin's manifestos, and so you know nothing about what
you are talking about here.

>>Do they teach you the fine art of
>>putdown's at Amherst?
>
>They teach us something about grammar, at least.
>
>-- 
>____ Tim Pierce                / 
>\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
> \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 

Considering the fact that your sentence construction is reminiscent
of James Joyce on a really bad day, I wouldn't be so quick to
proffer grammatical advice, Mr. Strunk.  What a clod.
If you resort to ad hominem attacks, at least do us the common
courtesy of being creative, not to mention correct, yourself.

Can we PLEASE get back to the issues at your no-doubt-callused hand?
-- 
   _  Alan R. Weiss   IBM AWS Austin-AIX Kernel   11501 Burnet Rd, Bld 905
 _| ~-. alan%auntbea.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com | Austin, TX 78758
 \, *_} auntbea.austin.ibm.com!alan@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com | 512-838-8281
   \(   DISCLAIMER:  Working at, not speaking for, IBM  | alan@auntbea
From: kay@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Kay Dekker)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: This word 'understand'
Date: 21 Dec 92 12:24:59 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England

In article <1992Dec21.045239.3295@news.acns.nwu.edu> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>In article <92355.223822SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>I've got a semantics question - what Under the Tree do you people
>>mean by 'understand'?
>I would suggest my understanding of people may be inversely
>related to the likelihood of their behavior surprising me.

<smile> Strikes me that it should be the other way about, Albert;
if I don't understand someone (ie, have no useful mental model (useful
in the sense that it has some predictive qualities, that is) of them),
then nothing they do can be "surprising", inasmuch as I have had no
rational expectation of them either doing, or not doing, that thing.

Myself, whom I suppose I have the best understanding of, in the above
sense, I surprise constantly.

-- 
the Crisco Kid: nasty pinko faggot agnostic pervert punk.  idx009@uk.ac.cov.cck
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: safarj@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 11:41:26 GMT

kay@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Kay Dekker) writes:

>In article <1gutjlINNi4a@agate.berkeley.edu> mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:
>>safarj@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar) writes:
>>>S.D.: 6 2/3" (For small samples, remember, divide by n-1)
>>                   ^^^^^
>>Splutter?!  Remove that word this instant.  The only situation where
>>division by n is appropriate is if you have sampled the whole
>>population.  Now in Joe's case, I might have believed this had happened,
>>or will soon :-) 

>Why, Mike?  where n is large, the difference between n and n-1 is
>so small that it makes (asymptotically) no difference; at least, that's
>how my A-level stats teacher explained it.

Besides, didn't someone say earlier that anything under 6' was to be
considered 'small'?  By that definition, we certainly do have a small
sample set here. :)

>-- 
>the Crisco Kid: nasty pinko faggot agnostic pervert punk.  idx009@uk.ac.cov.cck

-Points
-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
 If the President won't do it to his wife, he'll do it to his Country. -Unknown
________________________________________________________________________________
Jonah E. Safar             R.P.I., Troy, NY              EMail to:safarj@rpi.edu
From: arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Understanding
Date: 23 Dec 92 17:33:48 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <1992Dec23.144201.6988@dsg.cs.tcd.ie>
cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:

>1. Does anybody have further examples of non-X folk thinking that X-folk
>are anti-(non-X), e.g., gays are against heterosexuality, feminism is
>anti-male, blacks are anti-white? (I am wondering how widespread this
>idea might be.)

>2. Does anybody have any ideas about why such notions exist? Is it a
>result of poor communication resulting in fundamental misunderstandings?
>Or is it that the bigots are spreading misinformation to create fear of
>change?

[Very short of time, so only a quick answer, which doesn't do 
justice to the question.]

I'm convinced that this sort of attitude can only be understood in
terms of the phenomenon of psychological [as contrasted with
political] repression -- in Freud's sense, that is, but making all
due allowances for Freud's mistakes, obscurities, and pioneering
dogmatism.
--
Gus Rodgers,  Dept. of Computer Science, |  [Profound thought for 1993]
Queen Mary & Westfield College, Mile End |     "Philishave is about
Road, London, England.   +44 71 975 5241 |      personal choice" 
E-mail (JANET):   arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk |             -- TV advert
From: mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: More de-muffining
Date: 23 Dec 1992 05:24:50 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: tsunami.berkeley.edu

Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
> bryant@icd.teradyne.com writes:
>>If was great to see Kay's electrons out on the ether.  I haven't seen 
>>the lad since the bi conference in Coventry, lo these many moons ago.  
>>Much too long!
>
>So what's Kay like in the flesh...
>
> ;) ;) 

In a word?  Sexy.  Also sprach brain-fetishista.

hugs all
Mike, uncharacteristically short of words, or time to write them
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- g+ k+ s m- e? |    "Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and      |  Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion          |                 - Bruce Cockburn
               --The end of confusion is the beginning of death--
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: treating men as sex toys
Date: 24 Dec 92 11:40:49
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu


I keep running into this idea, which seems very strange to me.  Most
recently, I heard a man on a mailing list say it: he will have sex with
men when he just wants sex, but he will only have emotional
relationships with women.  I've heard other men say this and some of the
postings about male-male sex in other cultures seem to say something
similar.  I've also heard some women with this idea that men are fine,
exciting, etc., for sex, but you can't really get emotionally close to
them they way you can with a woman.

For me, this is not true at all; the emotional interactions seem to be
pretty identical.  I know that in our society men are discouraged from
expressing "soft" emotions, which could hinder forming close emotional
bonds, particularly with other men who are doing (or rather avoiding)
the same thing.  Nonetheless, I believe that men and women have the same
set of possible emotions, the same capacity for strong emotions, the
same ability to love or get hurt or care about someone.

Without getting into "what is *really* bisexual," my personal definition
of bisexual is not simply having sex with both men and women, but being
*interested* in both men and women, as people, as emotional partners, as
well as as sexual partners.  I wouldn't feel bisexual if I was just
using men for sex...they'd just be a rather elaborate sort of dildo, and
I don't think I would be bisexual if I was only having relationships (of
any sort) with women and just had a large collection of dildos...*grin*.

To me, this concept (men as sex toys) is very similar to the "hot bi
babes" idea, where the women have a sexual relationship, but the real
focus is on their relationship with the man.

Is this something anyone else has noticed?  Something anyone can
explain?

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                      | ~Can you tell me how much bleeding/it
muffy@mica.berkeley.edu            |  takes to fill a word with meaning and/
"amorous inclinations"? Aha! I'm   |  how much how much death it takes/to give
not "not straight," I'm *inclined*.|  a slogan breath?~ - Bruce Cockburn
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: magarret@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (CAT LOVER)
Subject: Address
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:37:19 GMT

I once belonged to the bi-fem-l mailing list, but quit and joined sappho.
Now I have quit sappho (got boring) and want to resubscribe to bi-fem-l, but 
have forgotten the address to subscribe.
Anyone know it?
Thanks much, man...
Marti Garrett
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: rowe@engin.umich.edu (Steven Rowe)
Subject: Re: Pet peeve of the day.
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 03:10:16 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Keywords: Grumble Moan Complain

In article <8c52p8=@rpi.edu> safarj@aix.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar) writes:
>Does a grumpy dragon get any hugs for asking?

Yes.  Hugs!  More hugs.  Oh, and happy new year!

                                  Steve


-- 
Steve Rowe: B0 f- w- c g+ k+ s- e+ r-
I drank too much beer, then tried to sober up by drinking
too much coffee.  The result was that I was still making
irrational decisions, but I was making them *FAST*!  -me
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (Piglet)
Subject: Re: Tori Amos!!
Organization: Tori Amos fan club
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:33:05 GMT

In article <9235416.17888@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> nsn@ee.mu.OZ.AU (Nick Nicholas) writes:
>as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik) writes:
>>eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans) writes:
>>>I just heard my first Tori Amos song!  (Happy Phantom.)  Neat!

I've now turned my honey on to her.  We played _Little Earthquakes_ on
repeat all Saturday.  By the end of it, we kept singing "Happy Phantom"
over and over and over and over again...  He came up with "and if I
leap today, I'll be the happy quantum"  (for Scot Bakula fans only)...

>
>Remember, that Tori mailing list address is 
>rdt-request@gradient.cis.upenn.edu, archives of which are available at

Oh, no!  Now I'll be humming "so you've found a girl who thinks
really deep thoughts, what's so great about really deep thougts"
ALL D*MN DAY!!!!


Piglet, humming to herself while typing gently away.....
Newsgroups: soc.bi