HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mitchell@cbmvax.commodore.com (Fred Mitchell - Product Assurance)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Others did it, why can't you?
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:06:50 GMT
Reply-To: mitchell@cbmvax.commodore.com (Fred Mitchell - Product Assurance)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

wayne@tse.uucp (Wayne Hines) wrote:
>...
>This is wrong because:
>
>* White ethnics immigrants have faced discrimination but were still usually
>preferred to blacks
>* First-generation white ethnics quickly learn how to hide their ethnicity.
>Changing names, acquiring American habits/traits, etc.
>* Second-generation white ethnics are often fully integrated into North American
>society, have no noticeable cultural differences, and suffer little discrimination.
>* Ethnic Immigrants tend to come to the U.S. willingly with an intact family
>structure.
>* Most U.S. blacks descended from slaves. Black slaves' family infrastructure
>was destroyed, black culture was destroyed, black learning/education was
>retarded.
>
>There is no credence to comparing the plight of North American blacks to
>the discrimination faced by white ethnic immigrants. Even comparing the
>situation to Non-white immigrants is faulty. No other U.S. ethnic group,
>except for Native Americans, has suffered the wholesale cultural atrocities
>that blacks have.

I beg to differ with you. The Jews have suffered such atrocities (and worse)
for millinea. Remember, it was 6 million _Jews_ that were sent to their
deaths, not 6 million blacks.

>Contrary to the excuseful thinking of those who like to
>blame the victims, the condition of blacks and Native Americans in the U.S.
>is directly a result of the racial genocide
                                    ^^^^^^^^
Where there was an attempt at genocide against the native americans, I am
not aware of the same against the blacks. The blacks were very harsly
treated, but I don't recall a systematic attempt to kill them all off.

>committed by white Americans,
>and to a lesser degree the continued societal racism that these groups still
>endure.

Yes, and this group bashing can continue on and on ad neauseam to whose
benefit? People must be looked upon and analyzed at the individual
level. We do not choose to be white or black; therefore lumping everyone
in blanket groups like this is grossly unfair to the individual.

And it is this that perpetuates the hatred between the groups.
Sad.

>__________________________________________________________________________
>		Wayne Hines
>		wayne@tse.uucp

=== Fred Mitchell (mitchell@cbmvax.UUCP) ===================================
 Lorinda, the    ..      ///     Heroic rescues are embarrassing          ..
 9th wonder of   .. \\\ ///      if you're not really in trouble.         ..
 the world! (44) ..  \\X//                          - Cally, Blake's 7    ..
============================================================================
tlk[?t(ap',;].0R\/Mpy#J<_r$H%s_PVZ:Kg*8P(9pduOpgxN-a,DUbwQm=$Z+kds>l<WxF.K8G
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: What A White Person Learned in College About AfAm Culture
Date: 17 Dec 92 03:28:05 GMT
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <1992Dec16.013425.2664@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:

# As I mentioned in the previous post, AA is not providing redress
# BEACUSE of the feedback from increased racism.
#
# We are talking here about a racist program that penalizes
# non-racists, does nothing against the racists that cause
# discrimination and has no net positive effect on the groups that
# are supposed to benefit. Where is the merit in this.

The truth of these assertions is not in the least bit self-evident.

In the first place, we are probably dealing with an equivocation on
the word "racist", as evidenced by all the blather in other threads
about what the word really means.  Some of you seem to be claiming
that any law that references race is "racist" in the sense of
discriminatory.  But as has been pointed out to you several times, a
race-sensitive policy that simply negates discrimination elsewhere is
hardly discriminatory -- *that* sense of "racist" -- itself.

In the second place, it's not at all clear that the "racist program
... penalizes non-racists", because on the assumptions of the program,
the places given to "less qualified" blacks would not go to
non-blacks, but to other blacks.  If there is any real inequity in
defining the program in terms of race rather than disadvantage, it is
among blacks -- well-off blacks who accept affirmative action are
taking places that should go to disadvantaged blacks.

# The answer is that the level of discrimination WILL NOT DECREASE
# until AA is removed.

Again, there is nothing self-evident about this statement.

David
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: 11 Dec 92 21:46:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <1992Dec8.234144.29886@fid.morgan.com> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:

# Fire the interviewer, fine the company a lot of money, require them
# to pay compensation to the black guy.  That seems like a better
# solution to me than requiring some totally separate company to give
# a job to some totally unrelated black woman.
#
# [...]
#
# They shouldn't be in positions of power, and when they
# discriminate, they should be punished.  Do you disagree?

Who pays for the lawyer to take the case to court?  Who grants the
authority to check the interviewer's records to prove patterns of
discrimination?

Should the government provide free legal aid in civil discrimination
suits?  Should government money be used to try to entrap landlords,
managers, and bankers into discriminating?  Should the government
require all hiring, rental, and banking records to be available on
request by anyone with a discrimination complaint?

David


Xref: sparky soc.culture.african.american:13092 alt.discrimination:5395
From: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (kauta)
Subject: Re: I'm Still Waiting
Organization: Indiana University, Department of Mathematics.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:12:48 GMT

In article <w81yVB1w165w@netlink.cts.com> galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) writes:
>lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney) writes:
>
>> In <1992Dec14.113247.1@milori.ccit.arizona.edu> ohall@milori.ccit.arizona.edu
>> 
>> >> 
>> >  I didn't say "More Brutal".  However give me some examples of slavery whic
>> >  has been as brutal as U.S. slavery and has continued for the number of yea
>> >  that slavery did in this nation.  
>> >  America has still held on to its notion of blacks being inferior.
>> 
>> Brazil.  Blacks make up a much larger percentage of the population
>> there than here, yet whites still dominate the power structures.

How many blaks percentage-wise a system oppresses is less important than how
much oppression it dishes out.....

>
>Same in Cuba. 
>G.

There is no basis whatsoever for comparing Brazil with Cuba. Race relations in
Cuba are the best in the Americas while in Brazil they might well be the worst.
Brazil has 100 (yes, a hundred) categories of color. If you think the petty 
differences between light- and dark-skinned blaks are silly here in the US, 
just imagine 50 shades of blaks in Brazil!!! [Roc with a lower social status 
than Cosby, who in turn is behind Gregory Hines, who in turn is behind.....]




-- 
Internet: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu      This message has been posted to
Bitnet:   kautaj@iubacs.bitnet               thousands of machines throughout
Uucp:     kautaj@iubacs.uucp                 the entire uncivilized world. Are
                                             you sure you had to read it? [yn]
From: HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Who is Malcolm X: Clay Carson article
Date: 14 Dec 1992 17:43:55 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <Bz10JK.FoK@ddsw1.mcs.com>,
barnhart@ddsw1.mcs.com (Mr. Aaron Barnhart)
bites back to moi HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels)
>:.
>:Then, you have to take into consideration Malcolm's death in early
>:1965 as well, too.  Which would make folks doubly upset that an
>:opportunity for unity between Malcolm's OAAU and SNCC was lost.
>
>Actually, that *would* have been somethin to see.  Maybe it would
>still be around and under female leadership by now!
.
.
Hardly. Even though the sisters didn't dig the antics of the
brothers...in fact, the late Ruby Doris Smith Robinson is said to
have given tacit support to the white sisters' beef against male
supremacy in SNCC, they were willing to go as far as they could with
them on building a black organization.  That was important.
.
Malcolm died before OAAU could become a viable organization. SNCC
disintegrated under factionalism, ultra-nationalism, COINTELPRO and
became almost indistinguishable from the Black Panther Party. They
had to align with someone who spoke the same message.
.
Let's say that power most probably would have had to be shared, but
not without people explaining themeselves. Of course, that was then.
 This is now.

>From my view, it's hard to think about unity without a frank and
>fair resolution to the conflict between men's and women's roles\
>in both the c.r. and b.p. movements.
.
.
These days, people will stand up and say such things. During those
bad old days, people wanted to unite very badly at the cost of
anything. A lot of people were standing alone, without any support.
 There's a bit more of analysis now, but the same thing is
happening.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Art Johnson)
Subject: Re: The Clinton Cabinet
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 21:54:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.233049.20470@cbnewse.cb.att.com>  
ronaldd@cbnewse.cb.att.com (ronald.h.davis) writes:
> In article <1992Dec16.031626.20046@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu>  
johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Art Johnson) writes:
> >
> >     As I recall, biracial people were classified by the Census Bureau  
> >according to which race they listed first, e.g. a person who said that  
> >s/he was "white/black" was classified as "white", while a person who  
said  
> >s/he was "black/white" was classified as "black".
> >
> *very* wrong.  the census rules as i read them have conditions which, to
> some extent, base one's race upon the "proportion" of one's racial mix
> [which is, in turn, a function of the race of the parents].  imho the  
rules,
> by and large, are concerned with maintaining white purity, thus, an  
asian
> or hispanic can eventually have scions who are categorized as "white".
> the situation with black people is different, however.  a person cannot
> be white if they have traceable black ancestors [which says a lot about
> what some white people *uniquely* think about black people apart from
> other races].  the think that is so ridiculous about this condition is
> that it would make [according to estimates that i have read] 20-25% of
> "white" people, "black".

     OK, I should provide the background for my statements. It concerns  
those people who checked "Other" for the racial classification question on  
the 1990 census form. The article that I read (which was in one of the  
Milwaukee papers last year), concerned how the Census Bureau attempted to  
classify them into one of the government-recognized racial groups. The  
article stated that classification was generally done based on which race  
the person listed first. Whether or not that was in fact true, I can't  
say. It does seem in contradiction with the stated definitions of the  
listed racial groups though, which, as you say, adheres to the "one-drop"  
rule. I wasn't aware that the rules are "bent" so that asians and  
hispanics can be declared "honorary whites", as it were. It doesn't  
surprise me, though, given the paranoid fear a lot of whites have about  
the possibility of having African ancestry. (The fact that this fear  
exists is something all you vehemently anti-AA people should consider  
before you declare with such confidence that racial prejudice against  
black Americans is no longer of great significance.)
 
> -- 
>   __  ______  __  / __/ |       at&t bell laboratories, naperville il,  
usa
> _/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/  .       ronald@iexist.att.com /  
att!iexist!ronald
> "if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes" -- edmund wilson


Arthur Johnson
johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith)
Subject: Re: Emitt Tills : Question
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:32:51 GMT

In article <1go0thINNhcm@uwm.edu> hahn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David James Hahn) writes:
>Hey all,
>
>I was wondering if someone could help me out with a question.....
>I have an exam coming up (Wed.6:30pm), and was told that some questions
>would be asked about Emitt Tills (he didn't spell it, so this may be
>incorrect).  He said to know who he was, and the events leading up to
>his death.  I've looked in numerous African American history books, and
>can't even find the name mentioned.  So, if someone could PLEASE PLEASE 
>help me with a short quick little summary, I'd be most thankfull!!
>
>				David Hahn
>
>				
>-- 
>David Hahn
>hahn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

Hi David!

Emmett Till:

"On August 28 (1955) Emmett Till, a fourteen-year-old Chicagoan,
was kidnapped and murdered by white men near Money, Mississippi."

ref: BEFORE THE MAYFLOWER - A HISTORY OF BLACK AMERICA p377
author: Lerone Bennett, Jr.	sbn: 87485-029-0

"In Mississippi, for example, Emmett Till, a Chicago schoolboy, was
spending a summer vacation on his uncle's farm.  In the middle of
the night white terrorists seized him and spirited him away. Later,
his body was found tied to an iron cotton-gin wheel at the bottom
of the Tallahatchie River.  He had been brutally beaten and shot
through the head.  The two white men accused of abducting him were
acquitted in a brief mockery of a trial.  Till's crime?  He was said
to have whistled at a white woman in a country store!"

ref: A PICTORIAL HISTORY OF BLACKAMERICANS pp306-307
authors: Langston Hughes, Milton Meltzer & Eric Lincoln isbn: 0-517-55072-5

Keith
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: LA disturbance re anti-Denny demonstration
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 16:25:41 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american

As quoted from <stovall.724552856@ficus.cs.ucla.edu> by stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall):

> Willie Williams aint fuckin around. Unlike that punk-ass Gates.
> What, you wuz expectin them to just let a bunch of bangers re-kindle
> another riot behind some bullshit??

The point is that many of us don't KNOW if it was a bunch of bangers.  People
interviewed by NPR claimed it was a peaceful protest until the police 
interfered.  I can't tell you which is true.  All things being equal, I plan
to assume that BOTH are lieing until I see proof to the contrary.  I don't put
much stock in the veracity of either gang members OR the LAPD.  Sometimes it's
hard to tell them apart anyway.

> They wuz doing their job. One cop was heard to say, before a local
> burger stand was rousted, "Just take 'em. They been done told to leave

It depends upon what they did, and what you consider their job to be.  If they
broke up a violent public disturbance that falls into the generally accepted
definition of police work in this country.  If on the other hand, they were
breaking up a peaceful protest because they didn't like the messengers, that
falls more into the category of police practice in Kenya.  If that's the case,
somebody needs to remind Bradley that he isn't Daniel Arap Moi.

> Damian Williams and the "LA 4" are going to have to do some hard time
> in the penitentiary, I'm sorry. They fucked over a guy in cold blood
> just for being in the wrong time, wrong place. It was *not* the same and
> did *not* have the same consequences for the vic as the King beating.

Based on the tapes (where have we heard THAT before?) it certainly appears so.

> I understand that they wuz kids who got caught up in the moment, but
> you got to be responsible for your actions.

You could get the same excuse from hundreds of teenaged SS men and Japanese
soldiers in China.  It didn't work then either.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  

"Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?" 
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Rank, Gender, and Homosexuality: Mombasa, (Wiener please read this)!
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:25:38 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene)

In article <706@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, pmmst8+@pitt (Paul M Mweene) writes:
>Judging from the ignorant rantings of Philip "Whiner" Wiener, whose total pre
>parations consists of getting an encyclopedia, obtaining therefrom an African
>name and then conjuring and posting any fantasy, however ridiculous, that he
>feels inclined to post. The ignorance of wiener is amazzzzzziiing.  [...]

Remarkable achievement.  Paul Mweene posts a long article agreeing with
what I've been saying all along--and then concludes that when I say it,
it's ignorance and Afriphobia.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Mweene Islands vs. Normal Islands
Date: 15 Dec 92 04:38:47 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


 Says Matthew Wiener:

>>The Lemba people in South Africa were isolated from others in the sense
>>of no intermarriage until the past generation or two.  There are others,
>>but none that I know without looking up the names.
>>-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)


When I first saw this I laughed. But I could not reply right away because
I had an exam today. Also, although I knew it was false, I did not answer
it until I consulted my many South African friends.

Although I could not find a homozygous lemba, one of my friends M. Mathoma
a PhD student, is part lemba and grew up in the Lemba area. He comfirmed
that you are speaking rubbish, again. 

To start with, South Africa is the last country in Africa where there could
be a reclusive people. For the last three hundred years,and with more intesity
than ever in the last 120 years, boers (white dutch descendants in South Afri
ca) have forcibly epropriated all useful land. As a result, blacks who are 
70% of the population are confined on the worst 15% of land, where as whites
who are 16% have taken the remaining 85%. It is clear that there has not been
a place for recluses in South Africa in atleast 100 years. 

I won't more time on this issue, since you are cleary so ignorant. You should
know however that black people in South African are the blacks in Africa who
have intermingled than anyther. To this end, the African lingua Franca is a
mixture of atleast 7 African languages,which by and large everybody underst
ands.

makala
From: HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Sent for you yesterday
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:46:07 GMT
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

After today, consider me gone.
--Sting
.
.
Well, not quite.  Gone on vacation until 1/4/92: househunting,
chanting, writing, etc. et al.
.
Enjoy the holidays, y'all
................................................................
                    GABRIELLE T. DANIELS
E MAIL:  hf.gtd@forsythe.stanford.edu
SNAIL MAIL:  P.O. Box 15, Palo Alto, CA  94302
MA BELL MAIL:  (415) 858-3932, M-F 8:30-5:30,'til 2/1/92

      *MERRY XMAS****HAPPY KWANZAA****HAPPY SOLSTICE*
................................................................
From: amiller@almaden.ibm.com (Alex Miller)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Seeking articles on L.A. 1992 Spring Disturbance
Date: 20 Dec 1992 17:29:44 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

I'm writing short paper in which I hope to explore the roots
of the L.A. 1992 Spring Disturbance - in particular the dynamics
between the African American and Korean community.

Is there a FTP site that has archives of soc.culture.african.american
from that period?  Did anyone save relevant articles that they could
post to me?

Some of the questions I want to explore are:

(1) How isolated are the Koreans from the South Central neighborhood?

(2) What were the Koreans doing there?  Was their a balanced mix
    business ownership?

(3) Did the Koreans have an unfair advantage?  Was it easier for them
    to get government aid or private loans?  Did they funnel money
    away from the Black community?

(4) Did the media prolong the disturbance by showing Koreans on roof tops
    with guns?

(5) Did rap songs and movies like "Do the Right Thing" intensify the
    animosity between Blacks and Koreans, or do they just reflect
    public feeling?

Thanks,

Alex Miller
amiller@almaden.ibm.com
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 12:03:13 EST
From: <FKR@psuvm.psu.edu>  Fred Rozenblad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: What's wrong w/ Our Skin Color?
Distribution: usa

Gabrielle/Frank/Greg

Thanks for your response.  When I got refused by her, I wasn't hurt or anything
like that. I just watched her continually try to start the car w/ no success.
I felted I did my duty by being an gentleman in offering to help.  I was just
caught by surprise when she refused my help and continued trying to start the
car. I was in the adjacent parking spot waiting for wife to come back so we
could leave.

I had some idea what was causing her  car problem. On most american cars, the
soleniod (coil) in the starter goes bad. Even when you try to start the car,
it won't kick over unless the coil is replaced. You can still "bypass" the coil
and start the car, which is what I was willing to do.

Anyway, when I came back to get my son in the early evening, I noticed her car
was still on the lot. That indicated she probably had to get it towed later.
Of course, (assuming she's married), her husband had to come and get the car.

No sweat off my back.


Fred Rozenblad
FKR@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL)
Subject: Re: Face it...  We depend on white people...
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 06:32:42 GMT

I believe that blacks in this country have a lot to be proud of in terms
of accomplishments that have bettered not only themselves as a group
but all Americans.  Charles Drew, Martin Luther King, Benjamin Bannacker.
The list goes on and on.  I think that the original poster is wrong
to say that blacks are depend on whites for everything form clothing to
shelter.  Blacks have worked hard to be treated as equals (unfortunately
still not completely treated as such) and learned not to be dependent on
whites the way that any immigrant group learned not to be dependant on the
Anglo core that started this nation.  I suggest you read the works of W.E.B.
Du Bois on what it means to be independent and still live as part of the 
American society and culture.

Havong said that, I am troubled by some historical inacurracies of a previous
poster who claimed that both Cleopatra and the Moors were black.
Cleopatra wasn't even that much Egyptian let alone black.  Ptolmy, the founder
of the dynasty to which Cleopatra belonged, was a Greek general who served
under Alexander the Great.  

The Moors, who conquered Spain, were a mix of Bebers and Arabs.  They were
not of a singular race and varied in color much the same way that ancient 
Egypt did.

-----------------
Danny Sokol
Amherst College



Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american