From: lezz@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com (Lezz Giles)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lezz@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com (Lezz Giles)
Organization: Motorola Codex, Canton, MA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:20:50 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.074718.15618@news.columbia.edu>, lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
|>In article <1992Aug21.193337.16888@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com> lezz@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com (Lezz Giles) writes:
|>>In article <1992Aug21.005430.11003@news.columbia.edu>, lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
|>
|>The jist of this response is that the poster has worked on a supremely large
|>project involving so many people, that they need management just to keep
|>track of the programmers.
|>
|>I won't comment on whether this project is managed correctly or not, but it's
|>this kind of thinking that would lead many to believe that the SDI may be
|>possible, while the SDI critics would point to this proof of why it will
|>never be pulled off.
|>
|>My own point of view is that the posters point of view is so biased that he
|>can't conceive of the fact that there are individuals earning a living in
|>this business who turn out the equivalent of N of the people in his project.
|>This is not to say that his project could be done by current/N people, just
|>that for some smaller projects, it is totally normal.
|>
|>His suggestion that I work only a week on any project is similarly skewed,
|>but I will admit that I never worked on any one project for more than 10
|>years :-).
|>
|>cjl

We obviously differ on what a "project" is - to me a project is something with
requirements, customers, and a deadline.  I listed my qualifications to show
where I'm coming from - where are you coming from?  Have you ever experienced
working with other people?  Have you ever had external (i.e. outside your
immediate organisation) customers?  Have you ever worked on contracts where
there is a contractual necessity for following a particular methodology (e.g.
military)?

Incidentally, your use of the term "programmer" is particularly telling -
programming is a relatively minor part of a larger project.  The major parts
are making sure that the requirements are OK, the different parts of the design
are consistent and accurately reflect the requirements, that the code accurately
reflects the design, that the unit testing is complete, that bugs are actually
fixed and not forgotten about, etc. etc.  To the people that I've worked with
here and elsewhere a "programmer" is almost a derogatory term, applied to
somebody who isn't judged capable of working on the more important parts of
a project.  The rest of us are "software engineers".

In passing, I'll also note that there is a major difference between
"managing programmers" and "managing a software project".

|>>I am a graduate in Computer Science and I've worked in computing for eight
|>>years, all the time on large projects (the first was AT&T's 5ESS, rumoured
|>>to be the largest software project ever, with at least a couple of thousand
|>>developers at any time, and my current project has between 100 and 200
|>>developers).
|>>
|>>Your opinions lead me straight to the conclusion that the largest program
|>>you've ever written probably took you (on your own) no more than a week to
|>>write, and probably it takes you about half that time to write most of
|>>them.  I'm guessing here, but it seems reasonable that the vast majority
|>>of people who write code for a living write larger programs than that.  For
|>>those of us who do, high level languages are essential, as are requirements
|>>and design documentation and all the other aspects of software engineering
|>>that you denounce.
|>>
|>>On a personal note, I take offense at the implication that (a) because
|>>I use structured methods and a hll I write mediocre code, and (b) I write
|>>inefficient code using inefficient methods.
|>>
|>>Maybe the bottom line is that you should stay with your assembler and leave
|>>the high level languages to the professionals (though I must add that yes,
|>>there are professionals out there who use assembler).
|>
|>Yes, I'll leave it to myself and the thousands of others who use assembler.

As soon as I said that, I knew I'd regret it - assembler is worth knowing and
a knowledge of assembler does help with computing generally - along with
boolean logic, some number theory, programming language principles, system
architecture, database theory, etc. etc.  Knowledge of the application that
you're working on is also helpful...:-)

|>How many other people subscribe to the idea that productivity (as opposed to
|>salary) is a function of how many people can get in on a project?

Interesting - companies looking for people have a choice between productive
people and expensive people :-)

Lezz Giles
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers