From: wildcard@nevada.edu ( WildCard !!)
Subject: Vampire vs. Hero vs. Gurps etc...(Long!)
Organization: Shadowland BBS, Smugness Division
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:08:29 GMT



Well, this is quite an interesting situation... advocacy is slow as molasses
and the misc group is full of flaming...

I have played Vampire (now I am the Storyteller) and HERO (and GM'd it) and 
GURPS, and I will now try to fill your heads with my humble opinions about the 
relative merits and flaws of the games.

Now some of you are very fond of these games (I am too) but let's not start
any more flaming. Just remember that these are my opinions and flaming me and
saying "What a muffin-head! Can you really tell me that...." you should just
count to ten and cool off.


GURPS: Complex, somewhat realistic, I like the open-ended character generation
but didn't like the final characters though. They seemed a little.... I dunno
like Mr. Potatoe head: a little silly looking and not really coherent (the 
abilities and skills chosen by our group were diverse and made no sense). The
play (not alot of dice) wasn't smooth or fast. It was like bookkeeping to me.
Ick. The group seemed more interested on what so-n-so's rating was that he
was with the "character." I liked the cross-over possibilities and easy
meshing of worlds/types of play. (Cyber-Conan? Sure! Let me get out those
suppliments...." I especially like the support and in particular I like the
relative depth of it (Yea, GURPS Camelot!)

HERO: (Put in for the sake of comparison, I haven't seen it mentioned but it
usually comes up when GURPers start posting)  I really like this system because
the skill mechanics are simple and leave alot to the GM. I like (for supers)
the power construction (if I could get people to stop refering to their powers
as "10D6 EB's Cone AE, fire effect" and have them say "fire blast.") combat
moves like a dead elephant without *huge* effort on the players or the GMs
part. Kinda sick of the "4-color comic/underwear on the outside" super stuff
though...  Fantasy HERO suffers because players are usually more familiar with
DnD and don't want to learn another fantasy system. That's them though.

All in all both of these systems are lacking something. There are fine games
for what they do, but lack "atmosphere." GURPS Horror feels like GURPS Conan
which feels like GURPS Camelot which feels like GURPS WildCards which feels
like GURPS Cyberpunk, ad nauseum. When I see character sheets for GURPS, I
truly see something Generic and not for any Genre. HERO feels like a Champions
game (maybe that's because that was the first HERO game I bought). It seems
too 4-color, and none of them are dark. Even the evil people are like Snydley
Whiplash to me. As far as both is concerned. I like 'em but they don't float
my boat. (Something about having to go to "gamespeak" in the middle of a
dramatic situation ruins it all)


VAMPIRE: I fell in love with it until I read the rules.  Not only did I have
to learn an entire vocabulary but (as StoryTeller. ST'r for short) I had to
memorize all the different mechanics for every different power. The book wasn't
well put together and I had to search for everything (Shadowrun Syndrome).
The rules, as a piece of art, would be Picasso. But underlying all that
there was something. I kept reading and found out why the rules were so lousy.
They (WW) didn't want people to use them!  They are only there to put some
mechanics on things that couldn't be solved by role-playing. (In my game at
least), no more "I use my fast-talk skill to convince him." I encourage my
players to actually *try* and fast talk the guy and I'll take into account 
their characters Manipulation and such in order to make a decision whether or
not he buys it.  To me, the ratings are a gauge, not a mechanic. they tell you
*about* what you'd be able to get away with. I've been running Vampire (right
now all Hunters/humans) and have rolled dice only when we (as ST'r and player)
couldn't decide on what would happen.  I run narrative combat. It's fast,
deadly, and chances are the Vampires will win if you aren't smart. 
Characters were created with emphasis on what the person is like and the
game stats were put in to represent it. I had to rework Thaumaturgy and did
some fine tuning on some rules so they made more sense to me. Actually, I
have rarely had a chance to use any of them. None of my games are scripted
and I do almost no preparation for them (no "modules" of any sort, mostly
because Ican't afford them :D ). the players have more to say about which
direction the story goes that I do.

The only proof I have that this system works is the games themselves. We
(the players and I) together managed to scare a couple players.Two of them went
home jumping at shadows, checking under their cars for who-knows-what. One 
later confessed that he slept with his door open and hall light on because he 
kept getting the gothic/horror imagery every time he tried to go to sleep.
We managed to keep the images going, the story going, the characters growing
and everyone interested because there was not a single break in the atmosphere.
(sidenote:  if anyone wants something to drink durig the game, have someone
very somber, not a player, go and get something red-winish in crystal and bring
it in on a tray and don't stop to get up or anything. When you do then the
continuity is broken)

All the other rpgs I've played+GM'd+read (at least 10+, games were one of
my obsessions) *none* hold a candle up to Vampire (pun, anyone?) in respect
to role-playing.

I am not denying that this kind of game couldn't be done under GURPS or 
Palladium or HERO or whatever. I'm just saying that the minimal game
mechanics (and what they have is poor) tend to discourage "game-speak"
or "gamer's cant" and so improve the quality and quantity of role-playing and
overall "feel" of the game.

Surely someone will say "it's the GM and not the system." Well, that's fine
and good. More power to you and your GM or players. If you can scare grown
men with GURPS Vampires then wonderful! You have then experienced the 
experience of Vampire: the Masquerade.

I'm just saying that's in my experience it has been harder to do dramatic
horror under any other system.

IMHO, V:tM does an excellent job at this. It is the best I've seen personally
and it tends not to discourage role-playing like heavy-mechanics based often
do.


No doubt by now someone has already hastily replied without reading all of 
this post and is ranting about how "stupid" I am.

These flames will be welcomed, read, then utterly ignored.


Thank you for your time...

- WildCard !!

.sig not worth mentioning