From: gsmith@lauren.uucp (Eugen W. Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in PBS and CBS
Organization: IWR, University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 17:56:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.210031.18889@midway.uchicago.edu>
nelshou1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (Roger Shouse) writes:
>In article <1992Nov6.183652.14903@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
gsmith@clio.uucp (Eugen W. Schmidt) writes:

>Perhaps.  This is precisely the point.  Change may or may not occur,
>but you cannot expect people to refrain from defending their cultural vision.

You seem to be suggesting I have to respect them for it.  Do I also
have to respect the Klu Klux Klan?

>So far, no _responsible_ person on either side of this argument has mentioned 
>going to war.

Pat Buchanan may or may not fit your idea of a reasonable person, but he
said this was a war.  My point was, in a real war people get hurt.

In any case, since heterosexuals have been using violence all along to
keep homosexuals down, it isn't an entirely theoretical issue, nor is
it a new one.

Moreover, *if* you are arguing that force should be used against
homosexuals (as in sodomy laws), then you *are* suggesting war.

>If this is intended as a sly threat, give it your best shot.  You'll
>be amazed at the backlash against your cause.

Don't be a complete idiot.  Anti-homosexuals are the ones who have
been using violence all along.  I was just pointing out what the moral
consequences of that use *are*.  What does a victim owe to an
oppressor? And an oppressor is certainly what you are if you advocate
use of force.

>Making drugs illegal makes a trememdous number of drugs users unhappy.
>Making polygamy illegal makes a large number of Mormans unhappy.
>Making prostitution illegal...etc.
>This does not mean that those who oppose drug use or polygamy or prostitution
>are bigots.

You need, as always, a *reason*.  If you do it just because those
people are different, then you haven't one.  In fact, I was interested
to note that you seem to be unable to articulate your reasons in these
cases.  Do you just not think that reasons are really required for the
use of force, or what?

>>How far does this extend?  If you want to put homosexuals
>>in jail, you want to use force.  

>Did anyone in this conversation ever mention puting homosexuals in jail?!?

Sounded to me like you might have.  Maybe you need to make your agenda
a bit more clear.  Comparing homosexuality to prostitution, and
talking about discouraging it, suggests to the logical mind that you
could well favor the use of force.  Or don't you realize that sodomy
laws are a use of force?

>>That means homosexuals are morally
>>justified in using force back again--for instance, shooting you or
>>burning down your house.  

>More threats?  First you set up a straw man to represent me, then you
>make these threats.  It's uncalled for.

This wasn't a threat, it was a discussion of political theory.  I
think you are a wee bit confused.  The "you" in the discussion was a
theoretical "you", depending on what position "you" took.  The
business about shooting concerned what might be be morally justified
depending on "your" position.  Of course, I was also trying to convey
that people are angry about your sort of attitudes, and I see that
part at least sank in, if no other.

Rather than complain about straw men and threats, you could try to
answer the argument.  First, read it again and notice there is one in
there.  Then, tell me if you think it is true or false that in a
society which rigorously enforced anti-homosexual laws, a homosexual
is morally justified in using violence against certain selected
targets.  And give an argument, don't just tell me your sacred
"opinion".

>I will continue to speak my mind, of course, and the direction we take
>as a society will continue to be as much my business as it is yours.

Speaking your mind is one thing.  Advocating violent repression is
another.  You should try to make it clear what it is you are doing.






-- 
     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/IWR/Ruprecht-Karls University 
               gsmith@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:6869 soc.motss:46479