From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Base-ball Dream Team
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:17:44 GMT

In article <20290@bunker.shel.isc-br.com> jerry@bunker.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald J. Lanza) writes:
>
>	Let me play the devil's advocate with this one. 
>	The standards by which a non-pitchers have been traditionally
>	measured are five, if I remember correctly, namely:
>	Hits, hits with power, runs, throws, fields.

Two big problems with this:
1) Hitting and hitting with power are by *far* the most valuable.
They are certainly more valuable than "runs" and "throws", and
for an outfielder they are more important than "fields".

2) I don't see "walks" in their anywhere.

>	Let's forget Frank Thomas for a moment if we can, and consider
>	Willy Mays against this standard. By most followers of the game
>	he rated A1 in all five categories. If we accept this as a true
>	test, then I find Bonds slightly lacking in the throwing category.

You might be right.  But your reasoning is faulty.  It assumes that
baseball decisions are based on logic.  But even so...  Even if Bonds
had a total rag arm (he doesn't), it wouldn't significantly impact
his value.

>	The consensus
>	was that DiMaggio was the superior player, of course not the better
>	offensive player.

The consensus was wrong.  Williams totally blew DiMaggio away
offensively.  If the difference were only between a .325 BA and a .344
BA, I might take Joe.  But DiMaggio would have had to hit *100* more
HR over the course of his career to have the same HR/AB ratio.  And
the difference in walks makes for a 90 point difference in career OBP.

Between the two is a 135 point difference in career OPS.  The average
CF has a 40 point lower OPS than the average LF.  Williams blows
DiMaggio away by *so* much offensively that Williams + Cuyler is equal
to DiMaggio + McReynolds.  And would be comparable defensively too.

>	I'm not sure, but I do think the defensive contributions should
>	be considered in equal measure with the offense.

In *equal* measure?  Why?  Bonds is 1/9 of the offense.  The pitcher
is 80% of the defense, and the shortstop/catcher/others are most of
the rest.  Why is *equal* measure appropriate?

Besides, Bonds has excellent range.  You rag on his arm, but his 3
assists are only 10 behind the *league* *leader* (Darrin Jackson in
CF).  The difference between Bonds and the best defensive outfielder
in the league is on the order of 10 plays.

>       Stating that, I
>	would consider Barry Larkin, Cal Ripkin, and Kirby Puckett to be
>	at least at the level of Bonds because of their defensive ability.

If you think Kirby Puckett is a great defensive player, you haven't
watched him recently.  He plays *so* far back in CF that he regularly
allows normally catchable balls to fall in front of him.  His arm is
no better than Bonds', either.

Bonds is an ace-level player in many ways.  In order of importance:

Hits for average:	A-
Hits for power:		A+
Walks:			A+
Defensive value:	B+
Runs:			A-

He's no Willie Mays, but then neither is anybody else in baseball.

One last point to think about...  You can put a bad hitter in the
bottom of the lineup, but he will still get 3 AB per game...  They
won't be in as crucial situations, but you still can't really hide
him.  However, you *can* hide a bad fielder in LF or at 1B.  The
difference in situational leverage between LF and SS is far greater
than the difference in leverage between batting #4 and #9.  So while a
team of nine Frank Thomases would have *major* problems playing the
field, the difference between a "normal" team (with Frank Thomases and
George Bell's hidden at DH, 1B, and LF.) and a team with defensive
superstars at every position isn't particularly great.  The defensive
team would, of course, allow fewer runs.  But not by all that much.
(Maybe 50 hits and 25 runs per year, *tops*, if you replace Thomas at
1B and Bell in LF with the two best fielders ever to play those
positions.)

Besides, pitching is most of the defense.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Ob. woof: Clemens is the best pitcher ever!	tedward@cs.cornell.edu