From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice)
Subject: A body chosen by GOD  ( was New Israel )
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:32:00 GMT

In article <9301112131.AA27618@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com>, 
I3150101@DBSTU1.RZ.TU-BS.DE (Benedikt Rosenau) writes...

>Stephen types:
> 
>>>>Before GOD all are equal. Worldly governments are *not* instituted
>>>>by GOD. Such are my beliefs, and this... that no sin is any worse
>>>>than any other -- thus all of us, (the users and the used), are
>>>>equally lacking before GOD.
>>>
>>>I think I recall a lot of Bible quotes which say that people are NOT equal
>>>before god. Like the chosen people stuff. And I don't care about any
>>>unprovable metaphysical pseudoequality that does not affect real life.
> 
>>God has chosen everyone BR, some don't accept. So be it.
> 
>Why don't you simply address the points? The OT speaks of a chose people
>and excludes the rest. So your god has not chosen everyone.

Point: Bible citations.  Answer: As misinterpretable as anything else. 

Provide a citation if you wish to continue this line BR.

>>Whether we call GOD: God, Allah, YHWH, Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, or any
>>other which suggests GOD of GODS, LORD of LORDS, CREATOR of CREATORs,
>>or perhaps more appropriately -- the One beyond all human description...
>>it matters little to me. Ditto for the Messiah.
> 
>The point is that they are gods, not one god. No *One* beyond human
>description. Krishna for instance is one of many. Do you believe in
>the Hindu Pantheon - or are you too _proud_?

They are names not entities, (only convenient to evoke recall). My use of 
"we call" suggests such. Then there is this matter of "human description," 
which is by definition limited. Hardly befitting for a human to attempt
to describe a god, wouldn't you agree? 

The simple fact is, it doesn't matter what we call GOD. We could 
blaspheme, (a sin to be sure), but no worse than my best attempts 
at love, worship, or adoration.

Warning "preachy" mode on: 
Except for GOD's grace, and my acceptance of it, I'd still be damned.
The best I can do is believe that. I try to love GOD, as best I can
by asking that GOD guide me and help me. I want help, GOD takes care
of the rest. Which is easy. The "beta" version of the world is so 
screwed up, and me with it, that the best I can do is piss poor even
by human conception. Including faith. So I don't worry, and just let 
GOD fix it and me in the process. 
Preachy mode off.

Kinda rag-tag huh. 

Yep, that's me. Like Will Campbell sez, "we're all bastards, but God
loves us anyway." Those folks who want glitzy religion gotta go to a big
church to get it. 

I saw this old drunk the other day. White haired and weathered, he
was sittin in a tex-mex restaurant to be out of the cold. I'm talking
street bum, with beard and hair headed out in tufts in every direction.
And with several layers of clothing and coats bundled on. It was about
8:00 pm. He probably should have been down at the overnite mission a
couple of miles away. Anyway that's me... at least you can imagine me
like that if you want. So you see, I can't offer you much in the way of
religion, so I don't. Just who I am, and where my head is. You wanta 
settle this matter with GOD, that's your problem.

I came over here to see for myself what atheist are like, and I'm
getting a clearer picture of myself all the time -- GOD help me. 

>Anyway, these gods demand different things, to the degree that one cannot
>meet all their demands. So I expect you to bring evidence that I should
>fulfill the demands of your god, and not for instance Krishna.

Yeah right.

>>>Prove me wrong. Or leave me alone.
> 
>>What's interesting is that you, (THOU), chose to respond to the posting
>>rather than just going about your business. Why would anyone's faith
>>in GOD matter in a Godless universe? Why do you bother responding?
> 
>Oh my. Belief in gods is a fact - as opposed to gods. And the fact that
>there are believers has many effects, like for instance your posting to
>alt.atheism, or Fundis trying to impose their belief on others.

Oh yeah. The old belief/believer confusion. I understand.

>>>The fancy point is, that you think that you have it all figured out.
> 
>>I've expressed (in no uncertain terms) my =belief=. I could be wrong,
>>childish, deranged, manipulative, human, machine, etc.... I could be
>>a different person tomorrow than today or yesterday. That's why I
>>put my faith in GOD, rather than myself. Very different than saying
>>"I know."
> 
>So, how come you think 'we have it all figured out'? Most atheists
>would rather agree on that they have figured out things and can provide
>communicable evidence for it.
>That's not 'all', nor does it imply that we would not accept evidence
>against it, if it could be provided somehow

Not bad BR. It is a thing. That is evidence. 

Best one I ever heard though is:

	what is is
	what is not is not
	is that all there is
	it is

Zen-wise, that is all

Now what was the question...

Oh yeah, so you can imagine me like one of those little high-brow
long-bearded tao dolls. As long as you keep it scruffy. Which is
why I think that the diffence between the nature and spirit doesn't
make any difference to GOD. He already picked this nobody to be
the messiah, named Jesus... (Ok. Ok. Jesus is a person just like 
the rest of us) And GOD come down to earth to run around in his body,
until he let these yo-yo romans kill it, then resurrected it, and kept it.
That's like wearing your favorite old grubby sweatshirt, after it's been
in the pile three days.... 

So maybe now you know what it's like to be a crazy believer like
me. GOD mystifies me. Nothin' a religionist would be interested in
for sure. I still know next to nothin' about what you really think
though, as an atheist RB. Best I can come up with is chapter 20 of
JOB, and you folks just don't seem depraved enough. I reckon I'll
have to look for my clearer conception of self elsewhere.

>>Science as a method hinges on repetition. Recorded human history is
>>only around 6000 years old. Good scientific estimates of the total
>>number of homo sapiens to now is under 100 billion. In a seemingly
>>infinite universe of space and time -- a negligible fraction of
>>attempts have been made by us to ascertain anything. Believing
>>in Science is like believing tomorrow will be the same as today.
>>A theory at best.
> 
>I don't believe in science other than I think that it is a working tool.
>And as opposed to religion, science makes some reliable predictions.
>In other words, I see no other use for religion than as a tool to
>control the minds of other people.

I've said nearly the same thing recently. You want to go lookin for 
other real wackos with me? 

>>It's kinda arrogant to assume that what's going on in our tiny bubble
>>of space-time is the same as any other where-when, in my most humble
>>opinion.
> 
>IMO; it's even more arrogant to choose one of the billion theories possible
>without having any evidence for it, and then proceed to deny theories with
>evidence for it.

Well now you lost me. Maybe you oughta lead.

 	theory -- an organized body of ideas as to the truth of 
	something, usually derived from the study of a number of
	facts relating to it, but sometimes entirely a result of
	exercising the speculative imagination

Imagine that.

>>Thanks sincerely BR. I've never had anyone tell me I was preaching before.
>>Do you think I have the calling?? (I think many people would say I'm too
>>much of a smart-ass.)
> 
>The former is not exactly what I thought.
>   Benedikt

You got it. It doesn't matter what I think. Only GOD does.

   |
-- J --
   |
   |  Stephen   "mystified"