HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Return-Path: cts@dragon.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:02:22 EST
From:         "Charles T. Smith, Jr." <cts@DRAGON.COM>
Subject:      Re: Moral Activity (was Re: Asylum)

>>define "legal" person.  When does one, in the eyes of the law become
>>one?  When you are conceived, when birth (at whatever stage...) occurs,
>>when you reach the age of reason, majority, middle age, or whatever?
>
>Just based on my own experience, one is not allowed to list as a
>person on your income tax form a child that was not yet born in the
>tax year you are filing for. You also cannot receive a SSN for a
>child prior to birth. Let's see, there is also the Birth Certificate
>which is a "Legal" document which is a requirement for obtaining
>most of our future "legal" documents.

There's a case now flowing through federal courts that was filed by
a Florida couple (if memory serves) who claimed a deduction for a
unborn child.  Several arguments were used, including the religious
belief that life begins at conception, support charges are incurred,
etc, etc.

Could be that if this case reaches the supreme court, the court would
needs rule on where life does indeed begin.  It would be ironic to
see a tax case shake up the entire abortion debate.
From: fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Clergy Trial Update
Date: 10 Dec 92 18:50:35 GMT
Organization: CompuData Inc.

2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Andy) writes:

> Review Ordered in Bishop's sex case (9 December):
>Vanouver (Canadian Press)- The BC government has appointed a special
>prosecutor to review the case of a Roman Catholic bishop whose sex trial ended
>abruptly Monday because of legal technicalities.

Besides him and the ex-Archbishop of Atlanta, I wonder how many others have 
had their story covered up by us paying the price at the collection plate.
These people obviously see nothing wrong in accepting the role of Bishop in
sanctimonious fashion.  They played the game well. 

I fully expect such things to happen in any group of human beings. There are 
some in this group who would argue that it really can't happen just like the 
church has been saying over and over again. We keep ignoring their very human 
folly in their actions and words because we like to think that somehow they 
are different and God would prevent us from such a situation. The frightful 
thing is that a very talented player could even be sitting in Rome.

Fred
-- 
W. Fred Rump 	office:	   fred@COMPU.COM     'mans feet have grown/so big 
26 Warren St.   home: fred@icdi10.compu.com  that he/forgets his littleness'
Beverly, NJ. 08010                          		Don Marquis 
609-386-6846    bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr   
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:16:26 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      The Michigan Model is being changed

You all may find this interesting:  yesterday, the state school board adopted a
change to the Michigan Model, Michigan's approach to sex education in public
schools.  They have modified it so that the teachers stress abstinance as the
best method of preventing pregnancies and STDs and that it should be the first
choice in a sexual situation.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 12:20:21 -0500
From:         Bill J Good <billgood@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject:      Re: Asylum (sanctuary)

On Mon, 14 Dec 1992, John R. Covert 14-Dec-1992 1127 wrote:

> >John Covert, could you tell us the name of this priest,
> >and some details about this affair? Steve.
>
> I can't find a recent article, but an article published at the
> beginning of the trial names two priests, The Rev. R. Thomas Carleton,
> 46, of Arlington, and The Rev. Francis O. Hagerty, 76, of Boston.
>
I knew Fr. Hagerty when I attended the Jesuit High School that he taught
at. One thing he said ti the press was that if he couldn't appear in his
garb, he would be in his underwear. A firm believer in his vow of poverty,
Fr Hagerty only owns 2 suits. Based on my knowledge of him, believe it...

It's funny, but I don't recall hearing the result either. I guess the
Clerical garb issue was more "news" than the trial itself....

Bill
Internet: billgood@world.std.com
GEnie: BILL.GOOD (Roman Catholic Category Leader)
WORLDNET: Node 1001 (Religion Moderator) Contact me for Details...
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:13:51 GMT

In article <9212142239.AA03087@chaos.intercon.com> amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker) writes:
>
>I read Len's criticism as not of the minister but of those speaking for the 
>recipient.  Now, there is certainly nothing unorthodox about the idea that 
>the intent and character of the recipient affects the efficacy of the 
>sacrament, although baptism is an interesting special case of this, since an 
>infant recipient per se is obviously not at fault, and there's only so far 
>that one person can speak for another, no matter what that person's condition.

But part of my point was to distinguish between the intent and the character of
those who are asking for the baptism of their child, and the intent and character of the one receiving.  By directing the dialogue in that way, I hoped that 
soemthing like what you have said here would be said.  I would however again
add another distinction.  I would say that the intent, though not the character,
can condition the the effectiveness of the efficacious power of the sacrament
in the recipient, but that it does not affect that efficacious power itself, or
the validity of the sacrament.

>
>My own initial reaction to the question is that in absolute terms, the 
>efficacy of the sacrament is not removed, but that its tangible effects upon 
>the life and faith of the recipient may be undermined by the actions of the 
>parents and godparents.  That is to say, that the issue is more of a pastoral 
>nature than a matter of a valid or invalid sacrament.

Agreed for once.  Hooray!

Peace, and Happy Advent.

John

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Apparently-To: catholic@american.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 09:37:44 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 15-Dec-1992 1237" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Asylum (sanctuary)

>Again, if this is the case, why is it forbidden to try to change the system
>from within as well as without?  I certainly don't argue the right/duty of
>civil disobedience, but a Church that teaches that we have an obligation to
>tear down an unacceptable system from without, but will not permit change from
>within is a bit hypocritical, IMHO.

That's not the case at all.  The Church is not just its ordained priesthood.
Laity are also ministers of the Church -- and they certainly are able to be
elected to public office.

Certainly protest and civil disobedience is "within the system" as well.

/john
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:04:04 GMT

In article <9212140723.AA25577@pegasus.com> Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:
>Jim, this sacrament is done on behalf of the infant.  The questions,
>answers, promises, and renouncing is done by the parents on behalf of
>their kid.  If they do not follow up with the promises made at the
>time of the baptism, and, therefore, if the promises made by the
>parents are not true, then I question the validity of the sacrament.

Len, I will let others sort out the details and provide the references, and I am willing to submit to being in error.  But it is my understanding thatthe efficaious character of the sacrament, according to the Catholic Church, is simply and solely due to the power of Christ conveying the grace.  I believe
it was the Donatist heresy of the fourth century (?) that suggested
that the moral character of the minister of the sacrmament could
undermine its efficacy.  By citing that I am not calling you a 
heretic.  I'm just suggesting that the Church has addressed this
issue already a long time ago.  Its conclusion at the time, which
I take to still be its conclusion, is that the personal character
of the human beings involved has nothing to do with the efficacy
of Christ's sacraments.

Peace, and Happy Advent,
John


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Myth exposed!!!
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:00:19 GMT

In article <921216085948.2020c6ba@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC%CUNYVM.BITNET@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU>
>>1. ....it is impossible for a woman priest to exist ....
>
>>2. ....women can not be ordained .....
>
>>3. ....it is impossible to ordain a woman ......
>
>Three times Marty denies womam's ordination, does this sound familiar
>to anyone? :-) - J.J.

   No, but your question reminds me of those who deny the Church's
teaching even more times.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: azamora@hexagon.cs.indiana.edu (Tony Zamora)
Subject: When will the new RC catechism be released in English?
Reply-To: azamora@cs.indiana.edu
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 17:22:22 EST

Does anybody know when the new Roman Catholic catechism will be released in  
English?  I called the local parish, and they didn't have any information.

Tony
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Moral Activity (was Re: Asylum)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:06:07 GMT

In article <BzBM5J.Ax9@news.cso.uiuc.edu> met48546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Marc E. Talbot) writes:
>The "pro-unwantedchildrenwhomaygetlifebutnosupportaftertheirborners" want to

   They MAY not get support after they're born, so let's kill them
now?  How about a compromise?  Why don't we wait until they are
actually born, then if they do happen to get support, we'll let them
live; otherwise we'll kill them?  Then next we can start killing old
people who "aren't getting any support."  Who's next?

   This reminds me of an old Peanuts comic strip, in which Lucy had
decided to stop being a "fussbudget," and start going by the motto,
"Live and let live."  Charlie Brown is standing on the sidewalk, when
Lucy walks by, stops, sees a bug, and stomps on it:

CHARLIE BROWN: "I thought your motto was 'Live and let live.'"

LUCY: "He wasn't really living."

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Subject: Re: Queens school board
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0b1@newshost.dartmouth.edu
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
 <1992Dec13.214057.27057@erenj.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:27:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.214057.27057@erenj.com>
bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:

> Perhaps so that they can be inculcated early, and at an extremely 
> impressionable age, about "alternative lifestyles" and acceptance 
> of abortion, cohabitation, homosexuality, and moral relativism as
     ^^^^^^^^                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> a legitimate form of expression
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But if I express my beliefs that abortion or homosexuality is wrong I
get condemned as sexist, or in favor of 'legislating morality', or
homophobic, etc.  These days it sometimes seems legitimate only to
express certain views.

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"Den Glaubenden gehoert die Ewigkeit."
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Re: Moral Activity (was Re: Asylum)
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 21:33:02 GMT

In article <9212200945.AA14051@pegasus.com> Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:
>Hi John,  Yes, I can do the same thing here that I have done on
>talk.abortion for as long as I have been on interNet, clear up medical
>questions.
>
>Depending on lactation as a method of contraception is not effective
>because _occasionally_ and _eventually_ the prolactin level will
>decrease to the point where ovulation is not inhibited and the woman
>will again be fertile.  Teleologically, of course, a woman should
>never have a menstrual period.  She should be active sexually from
>puberty onward, get preganant with first ovulation, nurse the baby as
>long as possible, then get pregnant again the first time she ovulates
>after delivery.  After the 10th baby or so she will die of a
>postpartum hemorrhage, and all without ever having a menstrual period.
><grin> [for the humorously exceptional]
>[The first 3.4 lines are fact, the rest fancy]

Thanks for the clarification Len.  One thing I would note, however, is that
I was not advocating depending upon lactation as a method of contraception
in the post.  You seem to have pretty much confirmed what I took myself to have
said about lactation, with the specification that ovulation will eventually
return.
As you know better than I, ovulation is ordinarily accompanied by various
physiological signs, e.g. cervical mucus, position of the cervix, changes
in the opening of the cervix, temperature shifts.  Just as a point of
information, do these signs generally accompany the first ovulation 
after child birth and normal lactation?

>I watch with dismay the intrusion of the abortion issue into this
>otherwise interesting discussion group.  As we see already, the
>abortion debate deteriorates into discussion of who said what, and
>what did they mean by that, inclusion of medical fact [or fiction] to
>prove or disprove a point, and zealotry on both sides.

I'm afraid I don't share your dismay.  As the reaction of the Christian 
community to the practices of abortion and infanticide have has been
nearly universal from the first century, the exceptions being later rather
than earlier, I cannot imagine how such topics, as well as others having
to do with what it is good and what it is not good to do to ourselves and
others, can be avoided.

Anyone interested in the history of the Church's condemnation of abortion and
infanticide might find "An Almost Absolute Value in History" by John
T. Noonan, Jr., found in "The Morality of Abortion: Legal and Historical
Perspectives," useful.

It seems the problems you cite, having nothing to do with abortion per se,
but rather with the temptations that normally accompany any topic of 
human conversation that goes beyond "how's the weather."

Peace, and Happy Advent.
John


Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 10:29:05 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      correction

My apologies to the list for an error in "One Bread, One Body" for today.
This is the THIRD Sunday in Advent, not the second.  Thanks to Len Howard
for noticing.  God bless you all.

Wallace Mayo
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:23:11 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Dec. 17

                    Thursday, December 17, 1992

Genesis 49:2, 8-10             Psalm 72         Matthew 1:1-17

                           THE FAMILY TREE

"A family record of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham.  Abraham was
 the father of Isaac, Isaac, the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah
 and his brothers.  Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother
 was Tamar." --Matthew 1:1-3

Only God could begin an all-time best-seller (The New Testament) with what
looks like a page from the phone book.  When we look into it further, we find
the first chapter of the New Testament is not part of a phone book but
worse -- a geneology which unearths some gruesome perversions from the past.
In the first six verses of the new Testament, there are allusions to incest
(Judah and Tamar), prostitution (Rahab), adultery (David and Bathsheba), and
murder (David and Uriah).  Why does the Church read this part of the Bible to
us today and again one week  from today, even on Christmas eve?  Are incest,
prostitution, adultery, and murder appropriate subjects for Christmas eve?

It only takes the Lord six verses of the New Testament to show we need a
savior.  By nature, every human being is doomed.  History -- even our own
family history -- proves that.  We need God to give us a new nature.  We
need the Messiah, Jesus, Whose name means "Savior".  Jesus is not only "the
reason for the season"; He's the reason for salvation, hope, freedom,
happiness, love, joy, peace, and eternal life.


Prayer:  Jesus, Savior, we adore You and give our lives to You.  Jesus, this
         week may I lead several people to accept You as Savior and Lord of
         their lives.

Promise: "He receives the peoples' homage." (Gn 49:10)

Praise:  George went to the Advent penance service and started anew.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
              Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Queens school board
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:40:57 GMT

In article <01GS7DUQ3W4E8WVZ7N@umassd.edu> Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU> writes:
>>every last bastion of those values from society.  Is there someone on this
>>list who can tell us how the parents of the area are reacting to this?
>
>From the comments listed in a Massachusetts paper, the parents are
>outraged.  They can't believe this is being forced down their throats
>and plan to do all they can to prevent it from being taught.  In our
>papers they are stating they want to start this in kindergarten.
>These are children who can't read and write. What do they need to know
>about these issues for????
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Perhaps so that they can be inculcated early, and at an extremely 
impressionable age, about "alternative lifestyles" and acceptance 
of abortion, cohabitation, homosexuality, and moral relativism as
a legitimate form of expression.



-- 
Bryan D. Boyle     |Opinions are mine, not Exxon's...
Senior Engineer    |PVT/ASEL/IA
bdboyle@erenj.com  |(908) 730 3338
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Asylum
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:57:23 GMT

In article <L44cVB4w165w@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us> elendil@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) writes:
>More to the point, if 25 million Catholics, along with all of the Protestants
>and Jews who claim to believe that abortion is wrong would instill that value
>strongly in their children and families, the clinics would close down due to
>lack of business.  There are entirely too many wafflers in this country when it
>comes to abortion.  It's ok to speak of it in abstract terms, but all too often
>things change when it's a family member involved.  At that point, lots of
>exceptions to the belief tend to pop up.

Everything you have said applies equally well to every sin, many of which are
subject to government prohibition, e.g. murder, theft, rape.  The question is
when a government decides no longer to protect persons against those who seek
to harm them in these ways, what should a populace do, despite the fact
that if they brought up their children better, they would not be murderers, 
thieves, and rapists?

Peace, and Happy Advent.
John



Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Apparently-To: catholic@american.edu, anglican@american.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 12:13:33 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 19-Dec-1992 1515" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Final 1992 Session of the Convention of the Episcopal Diocese of
              Mass.

The adjourned session of the Convention of the Diocese of Massachusetts
was held today.

The convention first dealt with seventeen resolutions, sixteen of which
were not among the 31 presented by ESA/NOEL/EU.  Then a resolution was
passed affirming the faith, doctrine and worship of the Episcopal Church
and resolving to take no action on the remaining thirty resolutions.

The one resolution which did get acted upon was the Resolution on Same Sex
Marriage (Resolved, that the blessing of sexual relationships or marriage
between or among persons of the same gender is contrary to Holy Scripture
and the tradition of the Episcopal Church.

The way it was handled was that it was referred to the Committee on Liturgy
and Music and the Study Committee on Sexuality along with the following
resolution on Liturgical Forms for Covenanted Relationships:  Resolved, That
this Convention calls upon the Liturgy and Music Commission along with the
Bishops, the Sexuality Study Commission, and interested parishes to develop
liturgical forms for the blessing of covenanted lifelong and monogamous gay
and lesbian relationships as a part of the Diocese's and the National Church's
ongoing discussions about human sexuality.

Note that the National Convention has affirmed that physical sexual expression
is appropriate only within the life-long monogamous union of husband and wife
but has acknowledged that there is a discontinuity between the church's teaching
and the experience of some of its members and has called for continued study
and a "pastoral teaching" by the bishops with contributions from grass roots
clergy and laity.

/john
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:21:09 EST
From:         Dick Corrigan <dickc@HPWAISVR.WAL.HP.COM>
Subject:      To SUBSCRIBE

I would like to SUBSCRIBE to your newsgroup

Thanks
--
*******************************
Dick Corrigan
e-mail: dickc@hpwais2.wal.hp.com
*******************************
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic