HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcconnel@mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell)
Subject: Re: Where do orcs go upon dying?
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:47:39 GMT

In article <1h1kenINNutg@sumax.seattleu.edu>, davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu (Stimpson J. Cat) writes:
|> 
|> 		Morgoth was never "killed." The Valar always took him alive
|> in the pits of whatever dungeon he was trapped in. He was captured alive,
|> tried, and hurled in the fastness of Mandos. Whereas, Sauron and Saruman
|> were killed in actuality - Sauron killed twice, really, when his body was
|> destroyed in Numenor during the Downfall and again when Elendil and gil-Galad
|> slew him in front of the Black Tower. However, because the One Ring was imbued
|> with so much of his power and will, so long as it lasted Sauron also survived,
|> and could take on a new shape. Upon destruction of the Ring, this, the greater
|> part of his essence, was destroyed and Sauron perished in reality. Saruman,
|> of course, was slain outright by Wormtongue.   
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> 					David L. Yee
|> 				email to:davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu
 Doesn't 
 Doesn't Gandalf surmise that if the ring is destroyed, Sauron will become only 
a relatively powerless evil, lurking in shadows, unable to take any form.  I
always thought that this would be the fate of Saruman's spirit as well.

Mike McConnell
Dept of Mathematics
Kent State Univesity
From: jim@rand.org (Jim Gillogly)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Death of a Maia
Date: 3 Jan 93 19:46:00 GMT
Organization: Banzai Institute

In article <1i7ekbINNddf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>In TLOTR there are three Maiar that "die".  Sauron, Saruman and the Balrog.
>In the first two cases there is a cloud that appears and then disperses.
>When Saruman is killed on the doorstep of Bag End the cloud "looks" to the
>west and is dispersed by a suddenly appearing wind.

Gandalf also died, I claim, and was resurrected.  Isn't this explicitly
stated in one of JRRT's letters?
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Mersday, 12 Afteryule S.R. 1993, 19:45
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 01:52:38 GMT

In article <1993Jan1.064511.27715@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, mozart@coos (Sting) writes:
>In <92366.102452IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> ROB <IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>
>>  This past weekend a friend and I had an argument over whether or not
>>Tolkien's Eldar had pointed ears or not
>
>
>I have noticed that in Tolkien's glossary of the elven language (which occurs
>in the Silmarillion, as well as various further works by other authors), the
>words for "ear" and "leaf" are closely related in Elven, which would suggest
>that they probably had something of a leaf-shaped ear.

No more that the fact that "corn" and "horn" rhyme, and horns grow near the
ears, and the units of growth of corn are called "ears."  Tolkien was a much
better linguist, both more clear and more subtle than that.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: karnabba@w271zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de (Alexander Karner)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re:  Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: 22 Dec 1992 12:03:25 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Distribution: world
Reply-To: karnabba@w250zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de
NNTP-Posting-Host: w272zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de

You all write about making ONE film out of the book....
I'm not sure, that this way should be taken...
I think, it would be better, to make it up in two or even in three
films, like they did with Star Wars or Indiana Jones...
It should be possible to make a good film out of a good story, and
all of you will agree, that the LOTR has a good story ... ;)

My personal favorite for the director is still Spielberg, because he is
able, to make good fantasy and sf movies.

(Btw. Have you ever thought about actor-toons, like they were used
 in "Who framed Rogger Rabbit" ?? I think these 3D-Toons would per-
 fectly fit into some roles...)


Wishing you a merry X-mas and a happy new year,
Alexander

---
Alexander Karner
email: karnabba@w250zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de
       karnabba@w271zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de
TU-Berlin, Germany
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: New Tolkien calendar
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 07:30:13 GMT

One complaint I had with this year's calendar is that Morgoth
(October's pin-up Vala) is depicted with fangs.  Is this mentioned
anywhere?  Reminds me of comic books which, at least around when I
stopped reading them, seemed to draw every bad guy with vamipire-like
fangs.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange hamantasch.
 |warren@      But the principal
/ nysernet.org is not all that hungry.
references: <1992dec18.191634.26691@b11.b11.ingr.com>,<1992dec22.185552.15655@netcom.com>
From: mdlcpgs@lhn.gns.cri.nz
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Redemption in LOTR
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 04:37:12 GMT  
Organization: Institute of Gelogical & Nuclear Sciences, New Zealand.

>>It occurs to me that never in Tolkien's writings is there a story of
>>true redemption.  
>>
>>There are tales of decent people who do evil acts that they later regret
>>(Maedhros and some of the acts of the sons of Feanor spring to mind),
>>but there are no tales where a person becomes evil (ie, works for
>>Morgoth or Sauron) and later regrets it and joins the forces of
>>goodness.
>
>Arguably the Dead (as in "The Paths Of", not as in "The
>Grateful") are an example. They worshipped Sauron in the Dark
>Years, and betrayed their oath to Gondor; yet they eventually
>redeemed themselves and found peace.

While not exactly in sevice of Sauron or Morgoth, the fate of Boromir
is also a redemptive story in LOTR.
	Phil
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: New Tolkien calendar
Date: 24 Dec 1992 00:48:09 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

Anyone out there see the 1993 Tolkien calendar?  A friend gave me a copy
for Christmas.  It's all watercolors, and very dark, but I like it.
In particular, I like the depiction of the orcs (who look like debased
elves).  I also like the picture of the Nazgul, that just shows the
black horses and a vague blur.

Anyone out there have any comments, or other comments about other
Tolkien calendars?


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: The Secret Fire (was Re: Question: LOTR Wizards)
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:50:19 GMT

In article <1h4l2cINN9ni@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>In article <EGDORF.92Dec16162253@zaphod.lanl.gov> egdorf@zaphod.lanl.gov (Skip Egdorf) writes:
>>>   In article <BzAAIH.685@unix.amherst.edu>, jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes...
>>>   >I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
>>>   >when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>>>   >Fire"?
>>>
>>
>>I always thought that this was a referance to his secret ownership of
>>the ring of fire.
>
>Ah, but Gandalf is not the servant of his ring.  The ring is his tool.
>Therefore, I'd think this refers to the fire of creation, as others
>have suggested.

Well, Gandalf says, as near as I can recall, "I am a servant of
the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor."

My guess: "servant of the Secret Fire" means, as was conjectured,
that Gandlaf serves Eru and the Flame Imperishable. 

"Wielder of the flame of Anor": I believe "Anor" means "sun", as
in "Minas Anor". I don't think Gandalf is specifically related to
the sun; perhaps he means that his fire, like the Sun's, is in
the service of Eru and opposed to Darkness. I also think this is
a reference to his mastery of Narya, the ring of fire.

Do we know anything about Olorin's position in the Maiar
hierarchy? Perhaps he was another of the fire-spirits who was not
corrupted by Melkor.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    
                "I know that, in America and under capitalism,
                 I am the freest woman in history."
                                --- Camille Paglia
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Date: 25 Dec 1992 22:58:43 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1992Dec24.160925.23203@gssec.bt.co.uk> cwilson@gssec.bt.co.uk (Colin Wilson) writes:
>
>If you read chapter 1, "An Unexpected Party", again you'll find that it wasn't
>the dwarves' beards that had the various colours, but their HOODS.

From the Hobbit, chapter 1:

At the appearance of Dwalin:

	It was a dwarf with a blue beard tucked into a golden belt,
	and very bright eyes under his dark-green hood.

At the appearance of Balin:

	Instead there was a very old-looking dwarf on the step with
	a white beard and a scarlet hood...

At the appearance of Fili and Kili:

	It was two more dwarves, both with blue hoods, silver belts,
	and yellow beards...

The colors of the other dwarves' beards are not mentioned, at least not
at this point.  They do have varied colored hoods, however.

So I guess I was at least partially wrong.  The only strange colored
beard in evidence is Dwalin's blue beard.  So what's the story?  Is
it a true blue beard, or a deep black or blue-washed white?  Or does
Dwalin just favor strange dyes?

(Also, yellow seems a bit more extreme then a plain blond, but I'm willing
to let it pass...)
From: rfd@po.CWRU.Edu (Richard F. Drushel)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: For the Tolkiens:  12 Step Program for Coping with Parodies
Date: 1 Jan 1993 22:55:08 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: rfd@po.CWRU.Edu (Richard F. Drushel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, jgm@ais.org (jim miller) says:

>Is there any published reaction of Christopher Tolkien, or even
>the big guy himself, to _Bored of the Rings_?  If not, do you
>speculate that they read the book?  For those of you familiar
>with C. Tolkien on any level, what do you think his reaction
>would be to it?

	Frankly, there are too many American 1960s culture-specific
references in "Bored of the Rings" to be intelligible to anybody but
Americans who lived through that period.  Brand names are an especial
problem:  Gulf Oil no longer has "Good Gulf"; the ad campaign "Serutan
spelled backwards is Natures" has been defunct almost 20 years; how
widespread are Farah Slacks, Barbasol shaving cream, Electrolux
vacuum cleaners, Gallo wine, Arrow shirts, Frito's cornchips, and so
on, outside the USA and Canada?

	And I'm certain that the Tolkiens would be shocked by the name
"Dildo Bugger", once the meaning of the first part was explained to them.
This is one that I altered to "Bimbo" in my own Parody of Appendix A
which has appeared here, which otherwise uses the "Bored of the Rings"
names when possible.  "Goddam" would also be poorly received...
-- 
Richard F. Drushel ****** Ph.D. in Developmental Biology as of 4:45 PM 9211.20
rfd@po.cwru.edu ** Cleveland FreeNet ** Co-Sysop, Coleco ADAM Forum ** Go Z80!
.............................................................................
After 13 years of CWRU, gainfully employed making bologna slices of sea-slugs!
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: "Passing away" into the West (was Re: Rivendell)
Date: 21 Dec 1992 15:15:21 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <uh311ae.724614395@sunmanager> uh311ae@sunmanager.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Henrik Klagges) writes:
> To be more finicky, both elven & human warriors sit in the very same
>halls of Mandos after their death.

To be more finicky, men only pass through the halls on their way out of
the circle of the world.  It is noted in the tale of Beren and Luthien
that Beren purposely delayed in leaving the halls to await Luthien.  He
wouldn't have had to delay if men just sat around for eternity as did
elves.



Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: eng10008@nusunix1.nus.sg (LAI WHEE MEIN)
Subject: test
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 06:47:07 GMT


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: krsear02@ulkyvx.louisville.edu (Kendall 'Opusii' Sears)
Subject: Re: Eowyn, Destiny, and Settling Down Re: Eowyn
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 13:57:24 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <STSSRAM.92Dec22171453@st.unocal.COM>, stssram@st.unocal.COM (Bob Myers) writes:
>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:05:44 GMT, krsear02@ulkyvx.louisville.edu (Kendall 'Opusii' Sears) said:
> 

[much of my stuff deleted]

>It seems to me that you'd say they all settled down no matter what they did after the war.
> 
>("Gee, they're no longer fighting the War of the Ring. They must be settling down.")
> 
>What would it take to have a character *not* settle down after the War for you?
>Maybe Aragorn should have given up the throne and gone back to the woods.
>Maybe Legolas and Gimli should have spent the rest of their lives on a quest to
>exterminate the race of orcs.  Maybe things were just a little bit quieter after the war.
> 

"Not settling down" would include further warmongering, chasing down Orcs,
questing, etc.  Which _do_ continue after the War just not by any of the main
characters. Rohan still maintains an army (although not as large) and still
defends its pastures against wolves, Orcs, and the like.  Gondor must maintain
the bordors around Mordor (and just about everywhere else in the Realm).  Just
because the War is over doesn't mean that all the Orcs, wolves, trolls, and etc
all disappear and everything is oky doky forever and always.

Most of the characters were either of royalty, or of high status in their
respective societies (the exceptions of course are the Hobbits), and this
obviously means that these characters would no longer _have_ to fight Orcs, or
anything else for that matter.  To do so would constitute "not settling down."

For Legolas and Gimli to take part in any battle _after_ the War would
constitute not settling down.  In no literature have I read any references
to Gimli busting heads after the War.  I also do not see any references to
Legolas killing anyone.

Probably most importantly, none of the characters embark on any type quest
after the war.  Yes this may be because things are "a little bit quieter",
but there are many things left to quest for after the War.

In a nutshell...  ANY of the characters COULD have decided to continue
questing/fighting/etc after the war... none did.

> --
> Bob Myers                              Unocal Energy Resources Division
> Internet: Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com      Exploration and Seismic Technology
> Phone: [714] 693-6951                  P. O. Box 68076

-- 

   Kendall Sears                   KRSEAR02@ULKYVX.bitnet
   Programmer                             ///
   Child Development Unit                /// Amiga
   Department of Pediatrics          \\\/// Currently running AmigaOS 2.04
   University of Louisville           \XX/ And Supporting Unix Sys V Rev 4.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Numbness is bliss... I can't feel a thing." -me.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jlauret@sbchem.sunysb.edu (Jerome LAURET)
Subject: Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer? (was: Origin of Orcs) and other 
Reply-To: jlauret@sbchem.sunysb.edu (Jerome LAURET)
Organization: SUNYSB.EDU
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:11:06 GMT


In article <1992Dec22.005522.19506@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn) writes:
|>Path: insti!sbcs.sunysb.edu!cmcl2!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!psuvax1!hsdndev!dartvax!Michael.P.Colburn
You wrote :

|>never 'sanctified' by Iluvatar (as he did for Aule's dwarves), I
|>believe that when an orc dies, he/she (hey, anybody remember references
|>to female orcs?) 

	Do anybody remenber about female dwarves in both Sil or LOTR ?? The history of the dwarves began with 7 dwarves fathers !?? Do someone have any idea about it ...
		J
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas)
Subject: Re: ME maps
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:47:02 GMT

In <MVOORHIS.92Dec18194511@granite.WPI.EDU> mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:

[various stuff that I and Mike wrote deleted]
>You mention that ICE does `fill in' gaps.  This is what I find
>objectionable.  If ICE is going to publish what amounts to a reference work
>about Tolkien's world, then they should at least mention that they took
>liberties, filling in gaps where there was no documented evidence of a
>certain thing that they claimed was a fact.

>So, ICE modules may be very detailed, but in some instances they do not
>offer facts, they offer *speculation*, which their readers may incorrectly
>interpret as fact.  I thought their `Arms Law' package was pretty cool, but
>understood that it was a thing entirely of their creation-- not a
>statement-and-appendage of someone else's creation, that they claimed to be
>fact.

I don't think that it is objectionable of ICE to 'fill gaps', as long as
they state that those 'fillings' are what they deemed likely. In fact, their
opinion is as good as anyone's, since JRRT himself is no more among us to 
detail some of his creation. But ICE goes, unlike, for example, me, into great
detail, and offers a detailed picture of a region, most of it backed by
'facts' ('facts' being things that JRRT wrote), and for the rest filled in
with, what I consider, 'educated guesses'. And 'educated guessing' is no more
than what we do here. The only difference is, that ICE publishes those views
for a wide public. ICE-modules offer a treasure of both information and
'educated guesses' on which to formulate your own opinion. 

I do not know the MERP Tom Bombadil-publishing you mentioned, and I don't think
I care to find out. ;)
I was actually talking about the MERP campaign modules, which detail a whole
region, like Rohan, Moria or Dunland (to name but a few). I value ICE's 
opinion on those regional things high, since they did a lot of research before
they published it, but I don't care much for their opinion on beings like
Tom Bombadil. After all, keep in mind that they publish for GAMERS, not for
pseudo-scientists. I guess they were trying to make Tom Bombadil an interesting
character to encounter during a game-session.

>Any comments to my opinion are, of course, welcome.

>	Mike.
>	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)

Same goes for me.
        Hein.
        (heinr@sci.kun.nl)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Subject: 101 years...
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 13:16:56 GMT



Happy Birthday, JRR, wherever you are.
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Date: 21 Dec 1992 13:51:37 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In reading the Silmarillion recently, I came across the following passage
in the section "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" referring to
the battle on Dagorlad between the Last Alliance and the forces of Sauron:

	All living things were divided in that day, and some of every
	kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save 
	the Elves only.

Does this mean that there were orcs and trolls fighting for Gil-Galad
and Elendil in the last alliance?  Ents fighting on both sides?  Or
am I reading too much into this passage?
From: jim@rand.org (Jim Gillogly)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Middle-Earth related software ?
Date: 3 Jan 93 20:11:51 GMT
Distribution: na,uk,oz,nz
Organization: Banzai Institute

In article <C0ALCy.5x6@ra.nrl.navy.mil> atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson) writes:
>  I'd be interested in a software program that displayed the Shire
>Reckoning calendar and kept track of which day is "today" as the year
>passed, possibly annotated with key 3rd Age historical events.

Actually, I did the S.R. conversion part yesterday, though not the 3rd age
historical bits... synchronicity at work.  The primary goal was to get it
working in an elaborately-carved calendar clock for the famous Maze of Art
in the Ways of Sawall, AmberMUSH, where you can see it on display in the
entryway.  It's in MUSH code, though, which might not be too enlightening
for you, depending on your background.  AmberMUSH is accessible with
telnet or better at lodestar.gb.nrao.edu, port 9999.

I modified JRRT's description of it slightly, though.  He indicates that
our New Year's Day corresponds more or less to the Shire's 8 Jan (meaning
8 Afteryule, of course), but he also says that Yule and Midyear's Day
should correspond to the solstices; at 8 Afteryule, Midyear's Day ends up
on our 24 Jun, which is annoyingly distant from the solstice.  I decided
unilaterally that some latterday hobbit reformer will have put it back in
order by now by adding in almost a year of Lithe and Yule days over a
decade or so (or leaving out two Overlithes over eight years, which seems
less likely, knowing hobbits), and moved our New Year's Day to 10 Afteryule.
This isn't totally unjustified, since JRRT says he's unskilled in these
matters and may well have made some conversion errors.  This does reasonable
things to the Lithe and Yule solstices both in leap and normal years.

I wrote a perl program that does it also... and produces my .signature
through a named pipe.  Guess I had too much time on my hands this Yule.

-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Mersday, 12 Afteryule S.R. 1993, 20:11
From: aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Steven J.)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: THE Movie
Date: 23 Dec 1992 20:48:41 GMT
Organization: The Other Side of the CPU
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.30

erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier) writes:
: 
: What about Sean Young (Eowyn)? She's one of my favourite actresses !
: If you don't know who Sean Young is , she played Chany (Dune) and
: what_was_her_name (the replicant woman in Blade Runner).

She played Channi in _Dune_ and her character in _Blade_Runner_ was Rachel,
Tyrel's niece.


Steve J. White
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
						   aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu
						     aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu