HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leino@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Antti Leino)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Swedish Heraldry
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:34:22 GMT
Distribution: rec.heraldry
Organization: Keisarillinen Aleksanterin-Yliopisto

In article <1992Sep11.131317.13518@sics.se> uddeborg@sisu.se (Goeran Uddeborg) writes:
>In article <DANDERSO.92Sep10121107@dante.nmsu.edu> danderso@nmsu.edu (David Anderson) writes:
>>I am studying my family history and would like to know whether my
>>branch of the Andersson family (from the region near Varmland) was
>>armigerious or not.  How would I find out since once I go farther back
>>than the early 1700s the surname of my family changes with each
>>generation?   Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>
>You could always ask
>
>	Riddarhuset

They probably can't help much.  I just checked my 'Svenska Ridderskap
och Adels Kalender' (Yearbook of the Swedish Chivalry and Nobility) from
the 1950's, and didn't find any Anderssons (not that I expected any,
Andersson being a typical Swedish commoner's name).  This isn't
conclusive, as it only shows that no noble Anderssons lived in Sweden
that year, but I'd be rather surprised if someone had been ennobled as
Andersson in the 18th century. 

However, the fact that the family in question most probably isn't a
noble one doesn't necessarily mean that they are not armigerous.  In
Scandinavia the use of coats of arms has never been restricted to the
nobility; everyone who has wanted to assume arms has been free to do so. 
The only restriction is that the barred helm and coronets of rank are
reserved to the nobility.  This has been the case since the late 18th
century. 

The arms of the nobility are the only ones that have been systematically
registered.  Thus the only way to prove that some members of the family
have used arms is to find some kind of document describing the arms, for
example a seal with the arms displayed on it, the arms carved on the
local church pulpit or a mention of the arms in a letter -- which isn't
something I'd call an easy task.  On the other hand, the opposite (that
no members of the family have ever used arms) can't be proved at all.. 

By the way, in the early 18th century (well, in some cases as late as
the early 20th century) the surnames changed from one generation to
another because they were not family names in the modern sense but
personal bynames.  Many family names, like Andersson ('son of Anders'),
have evolved from such bynames.

-- 
Antti Leino                                     "The notion of code-switching 
University of Helsinki Computing Centre          presupposes that there are 
Antti.Leino@Helsinki.FI                          codes to switch."
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:29:30 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

> When travelling through the Baltic Soviet republics in the summer
> of 1989, my best souvenir was a pair of posters sold (for a few
> roubles, which meant they weren't primarily intended for western
> tourists) next to the Liberty monument in central Riga, Latvia.
> The posters showed the national coat of arms of the independent
> state of Latvia, plus the municipal coats of arms of several
> Latvian towns.  None of them carried the heraldic attributes of
> the Soviet government, of course.

> Are there other readers here who are also interested in state
> heraldry?  Is it considered a peripheral issue in comparison to
> family heraldry?  Do readers here feel that family and state
> heraldry are arts and disciplines intimatelty knit together, or
> that they are different subjects with a trivial common framework?

Definitely interested; you are absolutely correct that municipal and state
heraldry is a domain separate from genealogy, and of interest in itself.
There are a number of excellent books on the subject; I'm afraid I haven't
got the references to hand.  From the point of view a medievalist, state
heraldry and personal heraldry are almost the same thing, the state
heraldry was simply the arms of the ruler.  However, it is still a separate
field of study, since one finds armorial practices in state armory that
occurred nowhere else.  Since the royal arms served different purposes,
this is hardly surprising.  

> By the way, what is 'ecclesiastical heraldry'?  Does it refer to
> coats of arms held by priests, or by religious congregations?
> Does anybody have interesting examples of this sub-discipline?

Prelates in the Roman and English churches are armigerous(*), and the
churches have developed complex rules of usage and display for their
armory.  These can be found in many of the standard introductions to
heraldry.  For an overview, I suggest one or more of these books:

Fox-Davies, Arthur C., _A Complete Guide to Heraldry_, New York: Bonanza
  Books, 1978.
    
Boutell, C., _Boutell's Heraldry_, J. P. Brooke-Little, ed., London:
  Frederick Warne & Co., 1970.

Franklyn, Julian, _Shield and Crest_, London: MacGibbon and Kee, 1960.



(*) armigerous (adj) entitled to bear and display armorial insignia.
    (someone asked what it meant)

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu (Kay Schlumpf)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Misc.
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:55:05 GMT
Reply-To: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu (Kay Schlumpf)
Organization: Materials Research Lab

In article <1992Sep10.124209.10199@cs.mcgill.ca>, zippy@cs.mcgill.ca
(Fotis XIPOLITAKIS) writes:

I said:
|> >I've forgotten the proper terms, but it's three black hunting horns
|> >on a yellow shield. They run in a straight line down the middle of it.

You said:
> 	Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that the device used by one of
|> 	the Cantons in Switzerland...
 I reply:
 Not that I know of. I just recently made a quilt and I embroidered EVERY 
canton's sheild on it. Not ONE used the Schlumpf shield.   

Now, there's the Basels (I believe) which each have one horn. One has a
large red one and one has a large black one...the curl on the end faces
a different direction on each of them.  And then there's another one which
used one on one half of it's shield.

If there's enough interest, I could bring them in and describe them to you 
all in laymen's terms (yellow, black, red)...I'm not proficient with the real
terms yet...working on it...:-)

|> 
|> 	About the books you mentioned in French could you please post or
|> 	mail me a refrence to them... Thank-you..

As another poster sent me, which reminded me...Reinstrap or something
similiar. I'll go find them again soon and let you know the exact
titles. Although,
I was warned that some of these are made up....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Kay Schlumpf     University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign,  MRLCFC
bitnet:   schlumpf@uiucmrl    	   internet: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu
Wife to Peter, the Patient; Mommy to Baeki, the Happy Cocker Spaniel; 
Owned by Pixel, the Cuddly Siamese and Dante, the Quilter's Cat. Also
Quilter, Collector of Model Horses, and Horse Fiend! 
             All opinions are my own...mine mine mine, ALL MINE!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 19:41:20 GMT

jogulin@pub_one.fia.dmg.ml.com (Joseph Ogulin) writes:

>I'd like to get in touch with the college of heraldry in England and verify
>if this is a true coat-of-arms, etc.  If anyone can post an address (or e-mail
>it), please do.  Our best guess is that it was issued by the Hapsburg family,
>as it deals with Austria and/or Croatia before WWI.

  You might have better luck talking to an Austrian group or German group, 
depending on how old the coat is.  Before 1806 (?) that would have been part of
the Holy Roman Empire--after that, part of Austria.

kAlan Terlep				        "Please don't shoot us--
Oakland University, Rochester, MI	         we're trying to help."
atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		     --Real public service announcement
Rushing in where angels fear to tread.		    for the Serbian Red Cross
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans)
Subject: Re: Any Domestic Cats in crests?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:59:47 GMT

In article <EWADAMS.92Sep11112521@netcom.Netcom.COM> ewadams@netcom.Netcom.COM (Ernest Adams) writes:
>
>The fictitious detective, Lord Peter Wimsey's arms has three mice, sable,
>on an argent background. Where the helmet is supposed to be there is
>a domestic cat, running, sinister.


And the motto, of course, (yes, I know this is TOTALLY irrelevant)
is "As my whimsy takes me."  :-).

El
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing
From: tadams@sbctri.sbc.com (Tom. Adams 529-7860)
Subject: Fishing books for the novice.
Organization: Southwestern Bell Technology Resources, St.Louis, MO
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 02:31:09 GMT

I grew up in rural Virginia, but was too interested in being a
nerd weanie to pay attention to hunting and fishing like every other
red blooded male in my family.

Now that I'm a comfortable nerd weanie, I've been out a few times
with my father-in-law trolling, I find that I enjoy fishing, and
in grand nerd tradition want to *read* about it.  I'm having some trouble
finding books on the topic.  I'm especially looking for basic books,
like what sort of places have bass, pike etc; how these fish differ in
bait preferences, etc. Can anybody recommend titles, and more importantly
mail order sources?

Do you think fish would be interested in a slide rule?
-- 
Tom Adams	tadams@sbctri.sbc.com adams@swbatl.sbc.com   314-529-7860
misology (mi-sohl'-ogee) Hatred of reason, argument, or enlightenment.
--  misologist n.	Not in any way connected to the word management.
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: srm3132@venus.tamu.edu (Susan Mahan)
Subject: What is purpose of this group?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords:  charter, purpose
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:00:00 GMT

I subscribed to this newsgroup because I am vaguely interested in heraldry.
What is the avowed purpose of this newsgroup? Is it for the discussion of
ILoIs or LoIs? Is it for help on research, i.e. I want a German family name
which was common for merchants in the northern regions during the 1400s?
(BTW, My name and device are registered and two badges are in the process
of being resubmitted after conflicting.)

From what I have seen this is more of a general discussion group. Am I right?

Thanks.

Renate Johanna Wilhelmina Warnecke
Per bend sinister, sable and gules on a bend sinister Or, three garb sable.

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu (Kay Schlumpf)
Subject: Re: Misc.
Reply-To: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu (Kay Schlumpf)
Organization: Materials Research Lab
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:37:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.191640.10048@watson.ibm.com>,
mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
|> > Now, there's the Basels (I believe) which each have one horn.
|> 
|> Those charges represent the top of a bishop's crook.
| 
 
Josh, 

You're right. I asked hubby over lunch and he said they were supposed
to be a bishop's hat(s)...so I got confused. :-)

The Schlumpf horns look nothing like them. They really look, well
the closest I can come in modern terms, is powder horns with little
loops (the strap or whatever it might be called). But, they are
horns, like musical horns..you can see the mouth pieces...hunting
horns.

I stand corrected!

kay
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Kay Schlumpf     University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign,  MRLCFC
bitnet:   schlumpf@uiucmrl    	   internet: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu
Wife to Peter, the Patient; Mommy to Baeki, the Happy Cocker Spaniel; 
Owned by Pixel, the Cuddly Siamese and Dante, the Quilter's Cat. Also
Quilter, Collector of Model Horses, and Horse Fiend! 
             All opinions are my own...mine mine mine, ALL MINE!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: Roxanne.Coffey@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Roxanne Coffey)
Subject: "Coffey cups" /  
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 23:56:09 GMT

It looks for all the world like several "coffee cups"  -- Is this
possible?  It seems like a very silly (or "punny") crest?  Would
it have been real?  I thought most contained animals.

Thanks,

Roxanne Brandon Coffey
(Coffey@wfunet.wfu.edu)

Seeking info on Coffey (MO, Co. Kerry), Hays (MO)
McGlinchey (Ireland), Sheehan (Ireland)
also 
Golembiewski, Potyraj, Flak, Kajder, Marhefke, Baranowski, Gronowski,Urban

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: mcdonald@sacomm.schulz.unisa.edu.au (Ian McDonald)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:38:43 GMT
Reply-To: mcdonald@sacomm.schulz.unisa.edu.au (Ian McDonald)
Organization: University of South Australia


In article <shralp.716055440@camelot>, shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:

|>I've seen several different crests for the MacDonald clan in Scottland
|>(mostly the cheap mail-order things which I strongly suspect are pure
|>sham), and was wondering if anyone knows what the true crest is.
|>
|>The two that I recall are a brown (perhaps a golden?) eagle
|>superimposed over a quartered shield and a three-masted ship under
|>full sail.  I don't recall maxims under either of them.
|>
|>Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?

The one I have seen has a scroll on the top containing the words:

               per mare per terras

Below the scroll is a cross held by a mailed hand and below this is a
shield supported either side by leopards.

The shield has a rampant lion in the top left quarter, the same cross and
hand mentioned above in the top right, a galleon in the bottom left, and
a salmon in the bottom right.

It has been my wish for a long time to create a postscript file that would
draw this crest, but I never seem to get a round tuit :-(    If anyone knows
how I can get it from a rather scruffy photocopy to a postscript file on
my Ultrix DECstation without spending real money, I would love to hear
about it.

Ian McDonald
University of South Australia
Information Technology Branch
From: rweisbe@starfleet.nswc.navy.mil (Bob Weisbeck)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Computerized Family Crests
Date: 9 Sep 92 12:17:29 GMT
Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center

Something that has been appearing in the Virginia area malls in the last 
few years is computerized family crests. They especially show up around 
Christmas time. Last year a friend of my brother's gave him on for a 
present. I looked at it and questioned whether it was the real crest. It 
had lions holding up the crest which I realize is just for show but the 
inside had nothing to indicate where our family came from which was Alcass
and Lorrine areas (France/Germany). Years ago my cousin presented a family 
crest at a family reunion which also made me wonder what it had to do with 
our family history. It had dolphins inside the  crest. 
    A few years ago at a craft show with my wife a guy was selling drawings
of family crests. I was curious and told him my name and region of my family
origins. He pulled out a book written by a French general in the 1700's (I 
think that is when it was written) and looked up my name. It was written in 
French and I believe it was old French and the guy asked me to come back in
20 minutes while he interperted it. When I came back he had roughly drawn 
what the crest would look like, flour de leis (sp) with diagonal bar and 
the colors were blue and gold. I didn't purchase it because I was
not sure how accurate his translation was. I wish I would have gotten the 
name of the book, or copy of the description so I could have someone who 
spoke French translate it.

   I'm wondering if other areas around the country have these computerized 
family
crest businesses and where they get their information from.  And how can 
someone be certain that their family crest is authentic? 
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: swans on shields
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 20:37:10 GMT

In article <7398@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu> bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes:
>Noble Heralds!

As much as I know, I am just a commoner, not a noble (there are extremely
few nobles in Finland, about 5,000 of 149 surviving families).

>The practice of using a charge with a name similar to the surname of the
>bearer is called "canting."  Or, at least so I recall.

Yes, that is right. The arms decipiting the thing of one's surname (like the
calves of Sir Hugh Calveley (argent, a fess gules between three calves stantant
sable)), are called "canting arms".

>					Your Humble Servant
>					Solveig Throndardottir
>					Totally Ignorant
Not so ignorant !

  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Possible FAQ: Tinctures
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:24:16 GMT

Another set of heraldic colours to include in a possible FAQ is the heraldic
jewels.  I believe Rietstap includes some arms blazoned with jewels instead
of tinctures -- some big fat armorial here at U of T, anyway.

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: badger@wixer.cactus.org (Badger)
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 23:41:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.171130.6799@westford.ccur.com> frank@westford.ccur.com (Frank Tredeau) writes:
>In article <shralp.716055440@camelot> shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:
>
>>Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?
>
>How about two golden arches on a rectangular red field?
>
>Frank Tredeau      Concurrent Computer Corp.
>(sez me)

	The shape of the field matters not a whit.



-- 
| Kenneth W. Scott        | Lord Gunter von Wissenberg  | Azure, a badger's   |
| Badger                  | Collegium Turris Animarum   | head erased Or      | 
| (Meles meles)           | In the Barony of Bryn Gwlad | masked sable, within|
| badger@wixer.cactus.org | In the Kingdom of Ansteorra | an orle Or. (I hope)|
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: allan@cs.cornell.edu (James Allan)
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:26:04 GMT

shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:
>I've seen several different crests for the MacDonald clan in Scottland
>(mostly the cheap mail-order things which I strongly suspect are pure
>sham), and was wondering if anyone knows what the true crest is.

>The two that I recall are a brown (perhaps a golden?) eagle
>superimposed over a quartered shield and a three-masted ship under
>full sail.  I don't recall maxims under either of them.

>Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?

Not sure I can really help, but I think you'll need more detail than
just "MacDonald".  My family descends from MacDonald clan Ranald
(seriously--and no, not clan Ronald McDonald).  The crest we use
includes a castle with an arm holding a sword sticking out of the top.
The maxim is "Gainsay who dare".  My understanding is that that's not
really the correct maxim (maybe not even the correct crest; I don't
know--Dad's the one into this stuff), but we liked it better than the
official one.
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: habura@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:36:58 GMT

Since Anders asks, I, too, am interested in the heraldry of towns and
corporations. A few years ago, I finished an ordinary of most of the civic
and corporate armory of Great Britain (and there's some doozies in there,
especially some 19th century coats. The arms of the Royal Burgh of Stirling
require over a hundred words to blazon!) I also know a bit about ecclesiastical
armory, again localized to Great Britain, but I'm not expert.

Andrea Habura
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 07:10:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.193732.10661@fia.dmg.ml.com> jogulin@pub_one.fia.dmg.ml.com (Joseph Ogulin) writes:

The arms of Ogulin:

>What it looks like?  Well, I don't know exactly how true it is (I ordered it
>from a company that does research on the origins of family names) and the
>description I received was as follows:
>	Per fess, in chief azure, an eagle or issuing from the partition.
>	In base gules, tierced in mantle, three lozenges argent.

The shield: Divided per fess (= cut in half horizontally) in chief azure
            (the upper half being blue), in base gules (the lower half being
            red)

In the chief (the upper half) an eagle or issuing from the partition): A spread
eagle growing up from the partition = the upper half (about the waist up) of
a spread eagle mounted on the partition line. Or refers to the colour of the
eagle, meaning gold => a golden upper half of a spread eagle mounted on the
partition line.

In the base, tierced in mantle (divided in three 2+1), three lozenges (rhomb-
oids, or 'flattened' squares standing on their tips) of silver (Argent)
in form of an inverted triangle.

>And the crest:
>	Four ostrich plumes:  vert, argent, azure, gules

The helmet is either open (and barred, tournament helm) if of noble family
or closed (tilting helm) if non-noble. The crest (= the thing put on the
helm as to fancy the helm) are four ostrich plumes, in order green (vert),
silver (or white) (argent), blue (azure) and gold (or yellow) (Or).

>I'd like to get in touch with the college of heraldry in England and verify
>if this is a true coat-of-arms, etc.  If anyone can post an address (or e-mail
>it), please do.  Our best guess is that it was issued by the Hapsburg family,
>as it deals with Austria and/or Croatia before WWI.

You might contact the British embassy and ask for the address of the British
College of Arms, but more advisable would be to contact the Austrian
heraldic board or institution. The Hapsburgs, of course, were the imperial
family of the Austria pre-WWI.

>jogulin@camelot.fia.dmg.ml.com		joe@monroe.pilot.dmg.ml.com
>jogulin@apollo.stevens-tech.edu		gcs_jogulin@stevens.bitnet

  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry