HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: labone@camelot.bradley.edu (David Laforce)
Subject: Car intentionally runs down cyclist!
Keywords: car, cyclist
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: 25 Jan 93 04:18:30 GMT

I don't know if this has anything to do with the discussion but about two year
ago a friend of mine was riding on a country road in Iowa when a car tried to
hit him by opening up the door.  Well my friend gave them the finger and of
coarse the car had to stop.  Well out jumped four guys who looked like they
were ready to kill him.  The got into a verbal match and eventually one guy
grabbed him on shoulders to hit him.  That was the break my friend was   
looking for and he shoved his helmet right up into the guys nose ( thank god 
for helmets ).  Needless to say he broke it and a lot of blood started coming
out.  The other three were so stunned that they picked up the guy and took
him to the hospital.  As it turns out, the police asked my friend if he
wanted to press charges because the guy attacked him first.

Now I am not advocating violence, but maybe it is about time for people
in cars to know that they aren't going to get away with that sort of thing
anymore and it will make them think twice.
From: SteveSgt@torrent.sj.ca.us (Steve Sergeant)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Tri-bar safety
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 22:35:21 PST
Organization: Steve Sergeant's Home...
Reply-To: SteveSgt@torrent.sj.ca.us
Distribution: na
X-Mailer: uAccess LITE - Macintosh Release: 1.6v2


In article <1993Jan25.192401.11617@adobe.com> (rec.bicycles.soc), byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer) writes:
> John - Forester writes
> 
> >    I am trying to learn of the safety aspects of using tri-bars.

[Remainder of Inquiry Deleted]
> 
[Stuff Deleted]
> 
> Nothing significant, all marginal.  But enough to take away from
> the original reason for installing them on a commute bike.  I'm
> saving up for a recumbant instead...

Interesting.  First you went to a prone position in the pursuit of comfort,
and now you're considering a recumbent position.

The aero bars (tri-bars) are, as most people here probably know, an attempt
to half-heartedly copy the prone bicycle designs (such as those by Gardner
Martin) that set speed records a couple of decades ago.  Part of the reason
that even the HPV/speed-record people went away from those designs and toward
recumbents was for safety reasons (it's clearly safer to go into an accident
feet-first rather than head-first).  Another reason was the optimum position
for getting the maximum energy output from the human 'engine'.

After doing a couple of major camping tours on my Ryan Vanguard, the prospect
of spending hours on the highway going head-first is thoroughly unpleasant
and more than a little scary.

I've never ridden with aero-bars, but everyone I've seen using them along
my daily commute seems quite oblivious to the hazards of traffic.

Just my half-a-nibble.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Steve Sergeant            Internet:  SteveSgt@torrent.sj.ca.us
San Jose, California         Radio:  KC6ZKT [@N0ARY.#NOCAL.US.NA]
(408) 945-0395               GEnie:  STEVSERGEANT
Audio Engineering, Music, Macintosh, Bicycles, Backcountry, Japan
From: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Newsgroups: aus.bicycles,rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Cycling benefits vs. risk (was "State Premier starts commuting")
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:04:25 GMT
Reply-To: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Organization: Adobe Systems, Mountain View, CA

In article <1993Jan24.092227.10564@cheops.qld.tne.oz.au> 
logier@cheops.qld.tne.oz.au (Rob Logie) writes:

>Wayne Goss, the Premier of Queensland Australia, has started to 
>commute to work on a regular basis by bike. ....Apparently, his 
>fellow politicians are very concerned about the risk to his health !!

You may wish to tell Mr. Goss -- and his concerned peers -- of a 
study published in the British Medical Journal concerning the 
lifetime benefits of cycling as compared to the added risk.  The 
conclusion was that the health and longevity benefits outweighed 
the lifetime risk by several times.  I don't have the reference handy 
(perhaps another reader can post it...)

Studies have also shown that cyclists that know and practice vehicular 
rules of the road have dramatically lower accident rates than less
experienced cyclists, so you can easily increase your benefit-to-risk
ratio even further.  

/John

-- 
John Ciccarelli           Adobe Systems,  1585 Charleston |    _~C      __C
jciccare@mv.us.adobe.com  Mountain View CA USA 94039-7900 |  ='\<,    ='\<,
uunet!adobe!jciccare      415/962-6677,  fax:415/903-0584 | (&)/(\)  (&)/(\)
=== "If you live within 7 miles of your job, why drive?" === BIKE TO WORK ==
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Subject: Re: Car intentionally runs down cyclists!
Reply-To: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:06:22 GMT

somerville@bae.ncsu.edu (Garth Somerville) writes:
> 
> In article <1jnppc$rat@agate.berkeley.edu>, annie@garnet.berkeley.edu  (Anne Jessop) writes:
> |>
> 
> |>go back to another thread, we could be intentionally run down if we "flip
> |>someone the bird," if we're pissed off because somone has squeezed us out
> |>of a lane or cut us off or knocked us over because they wanted a parking
> |>spot right there where we happen to be.
> |>
> 
> Your point is well taken, but I would like to stress that it is not
> bicycling itself that is deadly, it is people.
>
> |>Forgive me for being pedantic or moralistic, please.  This story just
> |>scares me, and does something to my faith (the faith we all have, no
> |>matter how responsible we are) that other users of the road will respect us.
> 
> When you have no such faith (and I can't imagine why you would), the
> idea is to ride as safe as you can, try to take as much control over
> what happens to you as possible, and simply hope that you don't
> get run over or attacked.

I agree with Garth when he says that if someone wants to ram us, what can we
do about it?  It seems to me that too many people are overreacting to this
incident in drawing conclusions about how bicyclists should act on the
road.  While I agree that this is a horrible tragic incident, and I wouldn't
want to be involved in one like it, this is actually the exception to the
rule.

Annie correctly point out how vulnerable we are, but the same thing can
happen if we're in a car or in a McDonald's when someone decides to shoot
everyone inside.  This is a risk we take every time we step outside, and is
not much greater than driving.  If someone in a large pickup decides to run
me off the road in my little Toyota Tercel, or shoot at me, then my chances
of survival are not much greater than if I'm on my bike.  We must realize
that this incident is the exception, and most people are willing to share
the road, notwithstanding all of the stories on the net about getting hit or
cut off.

As Garth says, we must do what we can to decrease the danger, but not let it
affect our resolve to be equal-rights users of the roads.

Pedal On!
-->Daniel Pedersen  -  Keren's Daddy		(215)543-8961
	dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu	pedersen@engin.swarthmore.edu
======================================================================
Highway sign on I-10, AZ: "Federal Prison - Do Not Pick Up Hitch-Hikers"
	50 yards later: "Campground	Next Right"
"Why do you kill people?"   -   "I am a terminator."  [Terminator 2]
From: rfriedel@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Ronald J Friedel)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Crazy and incompetent drivers
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:27:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: uwm.1k4dtaINNp9g
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <1993Jan26.210920.8794@adobe.com> jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli) writes:
>In article <1993Jan26.194645.6757@adobe.com> zstern@adobe.com (Zalman Stern) writes:
>>
>>I still haven't seen much discussion of what cyclists can do to convince the  
>>police to properly prosecute drivers who kill (either through malice or  
>>negligence). Are we really that politically powerless?
>
>IMHO, it has less to do with cyclists' political power than with the fact 
>that cars -- and all the hidden costs and awesome carnage that comes with 
>the package -- are just accepted reality.  People -- judges included --
>don't see how it could be otherwise, and until that paradigm is replaced 
>(if ever), drivers who kill will get off with far lighter sentences than
>if they had achieved the same results, with or without malice aforethought,
>with a *recognized* weapon.  
>
>-- 
>John Ciccarelli

I want to followup on this.  Last summer I posted details about an
accident involving a guy pushing a wheelchair and a truck.  This is
what has happenned since then.

A crippled guy, late 60s - early 70s, was crossing a street, pushing
his wheelchair.  He was using the wheelchair as a walker because there
was some street construction in the area.  He was crossing a side street,
going parallel to an arterial.  There was a stop sign to control this
side-street traffic.  He was near the crosswalk, but probably not in it,
perhaps because of the construction.

He was hit by a right turning truck that ran him over.  He is a friend
of our secretary's father and I heard that he remembers seeing the
underside of truck.  He lost his leg in the "accident."

As far as we know, the truck driver was not charged with anything.  The
guy that got run over was less fortunate.  He was charged with
jay-walking.  (Milwaukee is famous for charging people with jay-walking.)

Ron Friedel

-- 
Ron Friedel
GeoSciences  UW-Milwaukee
rfriedel@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: shari@modcomp.uucp (Shari Bernhard)
Subject: Re: Crazy and incompetent drivers. (Was: Punishment for the Driver!)
Organization: MODCOMP, an AEG company
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:47:03 GMT

zstern@adobe.com (Zalman Stern) writes:

>This woman shouldn't have had a license to drive in the first place. I am  
>pleased to see that the legal authorities are pursuing this as a murder  
>case. Past cases in the Bay Area have resulted in light penalties for  
>drivers murdering/maiming bicyclists. (The guy who ran over Mark Anolick and  
>the woman who ran down four cyclists while fishing for a cassette come to  
>mind.) I'm open to suggestions on what the cycling community can do about  
>this.

I just got back to this group.  I heard about this accident a few days
ago.  It's horrifying.  And people say that Florida is the worst; it seems
to me that there are sickos in every state.  No one has a monopoly on bad,
vindictive, stupid, slow, fast, inattentive or crazy drivers.

I'm also glad she's being charged with murder.  Remember last month in
this group I told you all about my friend Dale Hall?  (A million thanks
to everyone for their support and compassion!)  The police are supposedly
still "investigating" and no charges have yet been filed, even though the
driver admitted to falling asleep behind the wheel.  As far as I know, he
hadn't even gotten a citation for wreckless driving!  It's been over a
month now.  Our club members have been bugging the police for action.
Oh well...

An update:  this past Sunday we had our monthly "Big Event" ride, where all
ride levels start from the same place and go their own routes, distances
and speeds and have refreshments at the end.  John Hall, Dale's 13-year-old
son and a strong rider, joined us along with Dale's brother Darryl.  It was
really good to see him.  He seems to be doing pretty well.

Thanks again everyone.

Shari Bernhard
From: chandy@marais.inria.fr (Chandra SHEKHAR)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Crazy and incompetent drivers
Keywords: paradigm, official reality
Date: 27 Jan 93 09:25:25 GMT
Organization: INRIA, Sophia-Antipolis (Fr)

John Ciccarelli writes:

|> >IMHO, it has less to do with cyclists' political power than with the fact 
|> >that cars -- and all the hidden costs and awesome carnage that comes with 
|> >the package -- are just accepted reality.  People -- judges included --
|> >don't see how it could be otherwise, and until that paradigm is replaced 
|> ...
|> >About as many people die in the US each year from auto accidents (40-50K)
|> >as died in the entire Vietnam war.
|> 

I too have found it absolutely scandalous that such a state of
affairs should exist. It is as if people are somehow unable to
perceive the magnitude of the "awesome carnage" that is taking place
every day. There is hardly any discussion about it at all, either in the
media, or in everyday conversation. Even people who are otherwise
very progressive see nothing strange about getting into a car and
driving on the freeway with ten thousand other cars, where the slightest
lapse of concentration means certain death. 

Here in France things are even worse. People drive much faster on roads
that are much narrower and of poorer quality. I am the only person I
know who doesn't drive. I am considered a weirdo by the folks here. I have
tried to explain to them why I don't drive (even though I do have a licence),
but it is impossible. It is as if a vast intellectual gulf exists between
me and them.

Isn't it amazing that people get so easily paranoid about being infected
with AIDS by casual contact (the probability of which is negligible),
but have no qualms about indulging daily in an activity which kills
hundreds of thousands the world over every year?

Cameron Spitzer writes:


|> Speaking of paradigms, "accepted reality," and death, the often-cited
|> 40-50K figure counts only deaths of the *invading* (US, Aussie, UK...)
|> forces.  Estimates of *Vietnamese* deaths range from 1 to 2 *million*.
|> (This is for the US period only.  I don't know figures for the French
|> period.)  Notice how completely the "accepted reality" permeates our
|> awareness, even when we know better; notice how the deaths of those who
|> *aren't like us* are all too easy to forget.
|> It's like auto drivers' obliviousness to cyclists.

Touche' !!

|> Cameron, forever astonished at the power, all-pervasiveness, and
|> *depravity*
|> of the dominant paradigm.
|> "When will they ever learn?"

I couldn't have expressed it better ...


Chandy
From: jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Tri-bar safety
Date: 24 Jan 93 12:59:33 +1300
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <74172@cup.portal.com>, JForester@cup.portal.com (John - Forester) writes:
>    I am trying to learn of the safety aspects of using tri-bars.
> The first time that I conducted a class in which tri-bars were
> used (some time ago) I had to prohibit the cyclists who had them
> from using them in the group because those tri-bars in use had no
> brake levers on them. Therefore the riders could not avoid
> running into the rider ahead when the group slowed down or the
> rider got going too fast. I have since seen some tri-bars with
> brake levers, but I don't know whether the bikes that carry these
> also have brake levers in the normal place. If so, what is the
> mechanism for linking the action? I have also heard of a rider
> who, using a tri-bar on a gentle descent, reached down to change
> to a higher gear and experienced uncontrollable oscillations. Is
> this a frequent effect, and what is its cause, if anyone knows?
> 
> JForester@cup.portal.com                John Forester
>                                         726 Madrone Ave
> 408-734-9426                            Sunnyvale CA 94086 USA 

A while back there was a big flame-fest about aerobars,  so hopefully the abuse
has been used up..

When you say 'class',  what do you mean?  I ask this because the only time
aerobars need to be used in a bunch is in a Team Time Trial.  If this is the
situation you're describing,  better riding skills are the answer.

For mass-start 'official' racing aerobars aren't allowed,  and in
triathlons drafting isn't allowed so it's not an issue.

So I think the problem comes down to using aerobars in the right situation. I
use them and love them,  but mainly because I usually train alone.  When I'm
with a training bunch I just keep off them if I'm following someone else, and
use them when I'm leading - you get two guys with aerobars at the front and you
can set a good pace for the others.  Using aerobars when amist a  bunch is just
silly as both braking and vision are reduced and virtually no reduction in drag
gained.

As for descents,  I'll only use them when the corners are soft and visibility
of other riders is good.  On a good long and straightish descent they're
fantastic.  Changing gears can be tricky if the shifters aren't mounted on the
bars in a user-friendly postion,  but I've used shifters on the down tube and
bar ends (I have drops too) without hassle.  The rider experiencing
oscillations either had pretty heavy bars on and/or a bike that was slightly
out of tune and/or was going pretty darn fast.  The answer when this happens is
usually to change your speed as these oscillations often occur at a certain
pace of rhythm.  So for the rider you mentioned I'd suggest getting on the
drops and cylcing faster till the oscillations stop (nerves of steel time).

Hope this was of help.

Jonathan Dodd,
Hamilton, NZ.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: horkan@nicmad.uucp (Kathy Horkan x2324)
Subject: Re: Car intentionally runs down cyclists!
Organization: Nicolet Instrument Corp.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:57:07 GMT

In article <93019.070608TOM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <TOM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>The worst nightmare of any cyclist happened!  A Contra Costa woman apparently r
>ammed her car into a group of riders, killing one and seriously injuring anothe
>r.  Linda Ann Scates who is being held in the Contra County Jail in Martinez in
>lieu of $100,000 bail has been charged with 7 cts of felony hit and run and one
>count of vehicular manslaughter.  CHP believes it was an intentional act, there
>was no evidence of braking.  The bicyclist, all members of an amateur Calif.
>racing team known as Oaktown Wheelman were on a 65-mile training run out of
>Berkeley, California.  Vladimir Nikoli Quinn of Montclair, the cyclist who
>died was only 22.  A sad, sad time for cyclist.
>                                                 Tom

Here in Madison, bicycling capital of the midwest, a couple of summers ago, a 
motorist persued and struck a cyclist on the sidewalk.

The motorist was upset with the biker's occupation of the right lane so the cyclist 
retreated to the sidewalk ( which by the way is illegal in this city ). The motorist 
being determined to make his point followed the cyclist onto the sidewalk, knocked him off 
the bike and an altercation occured.

Our unbiased media interviewed several motorists that were very angry with bicyclists riding 
on the road; one even said the driver did the right thing!
From: tdsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Let's reTIRE this post! (was Team Motorola...
Date: 22 Jan 93 05:19:46 GMT
Reply-To: tdsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

...my
>employer appreciates the fact that it's name has been on tens of subject
>lines, and NOBODY seemed to badmouth them. ;-)

    Hey, who could badmouth a company willing to sponsor a real team?
(Now if they would only get into the tire rating buisness we could get
this thread cleared up once and for all... :)

Go Motorola!

Tim Smith
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: polly@grover.Stanford.EDU (Polly Siegel)
Subject: Re: NCCA - Let's Fix It
Organization: Center for Integrated Systems, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 22:19:08 GMT

97994779@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu writes:
> In article <1993Jan23.024250.2111@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu>
> webel@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu writes:
>  
> >
> >I agree wholeheartedly on the question of NCAA sanction, but I would
> >like to stand up as a proponent for leaving collegiate racing the way
> >it is in terms of combining men's and women's squads.  The way I would
> >look at it is that each school is represented by one team, which is
> >made up of both men and women, thus it is quite natural for both to
> >count for the national title.
>  
> Hmm let's see here. You say that it is quite logical for the men's and women's
> teams to compete together for a combined title. Well, please tell me in what
> other sport this occurs.  In what sport do the men and women fight for a
> combined trohpy but never actually compete at the same time in the same
> arean!

In what other sport do the roads have to be closed to put on an event?  I
think one of the factors that may influence this scoring combination is the
logistics of putting on an event for cycling.  The different mens
categories don't compete at the same time either... so what's the big deal
about adding in women?  One of the great things about collegiate cycling,
in my opinion, is that it allows people of different skill levels to
compete amongst people of their own skill abilities and still contribute
to the overall team success.  The differences in abilities are
acknowledged by giving more points to the elite categories.  In our
conference, the women's points are adjusted based in part on the relative
participation level of the women (in other words, the top women still
don't count as much as the top men).

>  
> I think maybe a solution to this problem is to have a Men's National
> Champion, a Women's National Champion and am Overall National Champion.
> (I am speaking of team not individual here.)

There already is a Men's National Champion and a Women's National Champion
(overall, and for the individual RR and crit events).

- polly


-- 
-------
Polly Siegel
Center for Integrated Systems
(polly@grover.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: The problem with cycling
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 03:59:45 GMT

>>Andre Rocha writes:
>
>>Well, I think that maybe I'll get some flames after this post but let's go
>>ahead.

You quote all sorts of equipment that is totally unnecessary for even advanced
bicycling.

Close-outs on good Italian cycling shoes offer quality at a small fraction
of the Sidi prices. I have four pairs of good cycling shoes in the closet
and haven't spent more than $45 for the most expensive. Moreover, the Schwinn
Team shoes that I just bought and that fit me like a glove, cost a mere $30
on sale.

Five years ago the highest necessary quality bicycle cost $500 or so. Any
more than that bought you fancier finish and brand names and a miniscule
decrease in weight. But no significant increase in performance or life
expectancy. Now it's gone up -- maybe the price is $800 now.

I expect that the prices are a bit higher in Great Britain but certainly
you can get a sufficient quality bicycle for much less than the prices you
quoted. Even a good used bike can be cheaply modified. I have about $1000
into a 1972 Peugeot PX-10 with a complete Campagnolo Super Record grouppo
and an extra pair of American Classic wheels with clincher rims. The bike
had all new braze-ons installed, a complete new paintjob etc. This
is a NEW bike with the finest quality components.

The two good articles of clothing you absolutely must have is a helmet
and a good pair of riding shorts. Helmets, again, can be obtained on sale
for far less than your highest priced option. There is essentially no
difference in the performance of a bike helmet as long as they have Snell
and/or Ansi certification.

Shorts, on the other hand almost always increase in quality with price.
But you may very well be able to use reasonably priced shorts with no
problems. Try it.

If you must have the very best to cycle then you can spend a hell of a lot
more than you quoted.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing