From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Christians?
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 23:41:01 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Sep23.225824.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> <66538@cup.portal.com>
  <1992Sep24.224518.8228@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>

9209.26 e.v.  [champagne (wedding)]

Scott Locklin writes:

Check out some of the Buddist saints, I agree, they have less self-flagellation
but think about the early days of buddism/hinduism- same situation as early 
days of any religion; the early ones are always the Martyrs (or is it the 
converse)


Response:

Please name 'some of the Buddhist saints', especially those who were killed
because they adhered to the doctines of Buddhism.  Thanks.


Old Thyagi:

>...it is one of my pet theories which is currently
>bearing much theoretical fruit.


Scott:

er, like what? I would imagine it is a useful way of looking at things for you,
or you wouldn't be so fixated on it. Its a model; thats all. Any value it has
would lie in predicting behavior of said adherents of martyrdom cult. The other
benefits are purely subjective on your part.


Response:

Agreed, a model.


Old me:

>is actually composed of some of the lowest levels of society.  When its
>expression begins to be corrupted by the orthodoxy it assumes different
>forms.


Scott:

Er- lowest levels? You mean its composed of poor people, or that it is composed
of the largest part of society, or are you just calling them dirtbags?


Response:

Economic.  This is a class issue at BASE.


Scott:

While we are on the subject of age, how old are _you_ & what makes you think 
your (rather peculiar) world-view will be the same in 10 years? (or your
behavior/dress for that matter- just to demonstrate the speciousness of your
argument) 
What makes you think manners/appearances of "Satanists" are any different from
Catholics or Bahais? I have noticed no statistical difference, considering the 
plethora of flaming homosexuals, artists, hippies and other assorted misfits
I know who dress& act rather strangely.


Response:

I have seen 30 sun cycles, or 120 season cycles, some of which I do not
remember very well.  I never said that my world-view will be the same
TOMORROW.  It changes in every moment.

'Catholics' are now oppressive.  They have power OVER others.  'Satanists'
do not, on the whole.  This is a CLASS issue.


Old me:

>I'm talking about a bit larger picture here.  I'm attempting to understand
>what MAKES a Christian/Witch/Satanist and I think it is their individual
>power.  Resistance to oppressive authority is what all of these at one time
>shared.  Just because modern Satanism has not been as corrupted as has what
>is now called 'Christianity' doesn't make it of a different tradition.


Scott:

Of course this is not what makes it a different tradition. You change the 
issue. Resistance to oppressive authority is something shared by anyone who
attempts to break from dogma, in science, philosophy, religion, social issues
etc... Were the Darwinians in the Stalinist USSR members of the "martyrdom
cult"?


Response:

There are different ways to 'break from dogma'.  'Martyrdom' has a rather
particular meaning which I do not always feel applies to those who
are killed BECAUSE of what they say/do.


Old me:

>Let me put it another way.  The Great Martyrdom Cult is DYNAMIC.  It doesn't
>maintain the same image/label/location.  It is INSIDIOUS.  It can never be
>destroyed because it transcends conscious identification.  It is REBELLIOUS.
>It takes on the face of the Great Enemy and plays out the energies that
>have been repressed by the Orthodoxy.   


Scott:

so its an intellectual abstraction on your part; note my disclaimer on these
a few sections up; is it useful?


Response:

I could not make that judgement for others.  Is it useful to YOU?  To me it
is.  That is enough.  I argue the case because I think the model may be
useful to others as well.  If you can show me that this is fruitless, I'm
inclined to desist.


Scott:

so "martyrs" are merely rebels. when their ideas/mores become accepted they
automatically get kicked out of the cult...


Response:

No, I don't think you understand the Cult very well.  Nobody can get 'kicked 
out of the Cult' because the only way to escape the Cult is to DIE.  If this
is what you mean by being 'kicked out', then I agree.  Rebels have MANY
ways to resist oppression.  Martyrs have a particular path.


Old me:

>The germinal form of the Great Martyrdom Cult (GMC) is what I call
>The Heretics.  Satanists can be converted by a 'Church of Satan', but
>it'll take a while to co-opt 'Heretics', since 'heretics' oppose all
>doctrines and organizations, PERIOD.  You may, if you wish, see the
>GMC as 'atheists' and as 'anarchists'.  These are the Scientific and
>Political cultists, respectively.


Scott:

So; you would rather everyone conform to the norm? What a dull world without
the "Cult of martyrdom" What has all this to do with martyrdom anyway? Anyone
who doesn't go with accepted dogma is a martyr? In that case, sign me up! I
will be in such company as R.P. Feyneman, Albert Einstien, Frederick Neitzche,
Boltzmann,- shit all the important physicists & philosophers, Aliester Crowley,
all the Buddas, all the shamans of the world- gosh what company!


Response:

Where'd you get the idea that I valued conformity?  Read more carefully.
It is easier not to follow the orthodox dogma and not to be a martyr.  It is
difficult to resist until death regardless of who is watching.


Old me:

>There are different stages that the Cult's forms undergo from the
>time which they resurface until they are finally completely co-opted.
>One of the first steps is the infiltration of their number with what
>are today called 'white-light, bambis' who no more have an understanding
>of what magick and social transformation is than does today's
>average college student understand political activism.


Scott:

I see some more of your point here. "Lost" types are certainly self-destructive
and sometimes gravitate toward unorthodox beliefs. These people are somewhat
obnoxious, and give bad names toward various groups such as fundamentalist
christians, moonies, wiccans etc...
Your "martyrs" sound like Colin Wilson's "Outsider"- You really should read 
this book- it has many of your observations, with (IMHO) some clearer thinking.
He observed the "outsider" phenomenon in post 17th century literary figures
& generalized it to other social phenomena...


Response:

Thank you for the reference.


Old me:

>The only way to be a Satanist is to oppose all authority other than one's
>own.  The only variable is whether or not to take action against it.


Scott:

er- what?


Response:

I am God.  All others are worthy of consideration, but if they pose no
threat to the equilibrium, then they are of little consequence.


Thyagi
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Oh all right, you're God too.  :>
Newsgroups: alt.satanism