From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Papacy
Date: 2 Sep 92 02:42:04 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <Sep.1.03.33.26.1992.13461@athos.rutgers.edu>, wagner@spinoza.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes:
From: wagner@spinoza.math.uh.edu (David Wagner)
Subject: Re: Papacy
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 03:33:27 GMT+5:00
Organization: UH Dept of Math

> I can't accept this.  I assert that it is manifest that some bishops
> and some popes, have been spiritually and doctrinally corrupt.
> For example, a bishop that would defend the sale of indulgences
> while suppressing Luther's teachings strikes me as more than a
> little corrupt, both spiritually and doctrinally.
> How could this be a fruit of the Holy Spirit and the reigning of the
> martyrs?

You are correct, some bishops and popes have been spiritually and doctrinally
corrupt, but our truth is determined by the teaching of all the bishops in
union with one another, or the Pope in union with the bishops speaking ex
cathedra (which no doctrinally corrupt pope has ever done).

> I'd like to discuss the matter of Peter as a rock a little more.
> I'm told that `Petros' in Greek means a little rock, a pebble,
> whereas `petra' denotes more generic rock, or even a boulder.
> This distinction, to me seems to underline the distinction
> between Peter the person, and the faith that he confessed.  It 
> has been noted already, that the Church Fathers interpreted 
> Matt 16:18 as indicating Peter's confession rather than Peter
> himself. This distinction between `Petros' and `petra' 
> also seems to emphasize the humor in the pun.

As was already noted, the claim that this is what the Church Fathers taught was
refuted.  Someone posted quotes from the same Fathers who made the supposed
quotes that Peter's confession was the Rock, which said that Peter was the
rock.  Most notably, St. Cyprian's Unity of the Catholic Church Chapter 4
states quite explicitly that Peter was the rock. "It is on one man that He
builds the Church; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles
after His resurrection, ... -- nevertheless, in order that unity might be
clearly shown, He established by His own authority a source for that unity,
which takes its beginning from one man alone."  Other Fathers confirm this
view, and not the one that the Church was founded on a confession.

Yes, you are correct about the meaning of Petros and Petra in Greek.  The
problem is, Petros is a translation of the Aramaic and Hebrew Kepha, which
Scripture says was also Peter's name.  Kepha means Rock, not pebble.  Peter was
not named Petra because Petra is feminine; the masculine form is Petros.  That
Petros is merely a translation of Kepha is demonstrated by the fact that Jesus
would not have spoken to the Apostles in Greek, but in Aramaic; furthermore, I
believe there is substantial evidence that Matthew was originally written in a
Semitic tongue, and hence even the original Scriptures would have said, "You
are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my church."

> "As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and
> precious to him--you also, like living stones, are being built into a
> spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices
> acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.  For in Scripture it says: `See, I
> lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who
> trusts in him will never be put to shame.' "

> By these words, I believe that Peter equated all believers with himself.  He
> is merely the first of many rocks in the church, founded upon Christ, the
> cornerstone.  It is almost as if he said, "So what if Christ called me
> `Petros'?  Does that make me more special than you?  You are all `rocks' in
> the church who confess Christ as your savior.".

Peter was merely emphasizing Christ as cornerstone, not denying his own
position in the house of faith (indeed it would be rather arrogant to say,
"Christ is the cornerstone, I am the foundation, " etc.) Revelation 21:14 even
says that the wall of the city had twelve foundations, one for each of the
Apostles, so it is not true that all believers are equal.  Revelation speaks in
many different ways of the differing honor given to various saints; there are
twenty-four elders (twelve patriarchs and twelve apostles?), and the number
twelve is significant in other ways (although not all of them are clearly
referring to the Apostles).  Also note that the Apostles will sit in judgment
of the tribes of Israel (Luke 22:30).

Eric
--
/=============================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer     For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA  pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com          they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==============================- 2 Th 2:15 -==================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.