From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:06:36 GMT

Parts of this were written by Donal, Murray Altheim, and Bill, but in
following up, I screwed up the attributions ROYALLY.  A thousand
pardons, and please don't flame me for it. 

altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
> 
>: Donal, well put!  Yes, this is a religious newsgroup.  We obviously don't
>: want to exclude scientific discussion here, but the focus and reason for
>: the group centers around paganism, a term that (last time I looked it up)
>: referred to polytheistic beliefs (among other things...).  There does seem
>: to be a unnecessary tendency in this group lately to justify a scientific
>: approach to a mystical/religious topic.  How is this so?

Why is this a problem?  When you become a Pagan do you turn your back on
explanations of the natural world?  Sorry, but I am not "justifying"
anything.  I am delighting in natural explanations.  It's a matter of
semantics.  This may shock some of you, but scientists study the
universe because it's FUN, not because we have any deep-seated desire to
torpedo anyone's spirituality.  You people make it out like Tim read
the post on coal-walking, and went home to look it up so he could post
the explanation and say, "Nyaaah-nyaaaaaaah!"  

>: I object to those who push a scientific worldview to the exclusion of any 
>: other.  There is no balance in such a stilted Weltansicht.  Physics discussing
>:I would also object - that is as stupid as insisting on a religious or magical
>:worldview, excluding all others.

ExCUSE me, but I consider physics to be a vital part of my spirituality.
If you don't like that, tough.  Re this coal-walking thing, nowhere did
any scientific post attempt to "push a scientific worldview to the
exclusion of any other."  The original poster (Tim O'Neill) posted
explaining how coal-walking doesn't burn your feet; HE was them jumped
on by people who angrily promoted a non-scientific "worldview to the
exclusion of any other," by people scared shitless of science and ready
to pounce on it as soon as it reared its innocent head. 

This bagging on science has me a little concerned.  Most people are not
scientists; it's hard and you have to study little else aside from it,
so most people are not willing to do it, which is perfectly fine.
Everyone must follow their heart and do what their talents compel them
to do.  But, because there are few scientists in the Pagan community, as
well as in the community at large, people feel free to point the Flying
Fickle Finger of Fate at Big Bad Science since they feel assured that
they won't be pointing at anyone else here.  (That, incidentally, is the
single most vital rule for pointing the FFFoF to assess blame for the
world's ills -- JUST MAKE DAMNED SURE YOU DON'T POINT THE THING ANYWHERE
NEAR YOURSELF!)  You are looking for something else to place the blame
on for the world's ills.  Science is not to blame for pollution -- we
are, every damned one of us including myself.  We have a deep and
insatiable hunger for mobitlity and personal transportation that has
fouled that air right outside my window to the point where I get sinus
headaches from it.  Science is not to blame for extinctions, we are,
each and every one os us including myself, because in our drive to
spread over the entire surface of the planet, we are pushing other kin
creatures right off it.

No one other than ourselves is to blame, and this trashing of science is
nothing other than a childish attempt to point the FFFoF somewhere else
and squeal, "They did it!"  

If you are THAT scared of science, maybe you should ask yourself WHY you
dislike it and those who enjoy it and find great spiritual fulfillment
in studying it.  

>: Nobody can have an entirely physical, entirely mental or 
>: entirely spiritual Weltanschauung.  We all live in all three.  Each realm
>: is legitimate and deserves its legitimacy.  

Not according to you.  You say above in essence that hard science and
physics in particular have no place here.  If you don't like it, close
your eyes or hit 'n' when the subject comes up.  I, for one, find it to
be very spiritual and enlightening, and I will continue posting about it
when the mood strikes me.  I am a Witch and a Pagan.  I am a scientist.
I'm sorry, but I see no contradiction in that.  If you do, too bad.  I
am not here to adhere to ANYONE else's ideas of what a Pagan or Witch
is. 

And, also, I do not live in three Weltanschaungs.  I live in ONE, that
has characteristics of all three.

>: To return to my main point, and summarize, I just wish to caution those who
>: attempt to cross between the realms when making a point.  

You would limit yourself to only ONE of your painfully distinct "realms"
all the time?  Are you incapable of synthesis? 

>:You cannot explain
>: the mystical experience of firewalking.  

Again, exCUSE me, but the original poster did no such thing.  He simply
explained why the other person's feet were not burnt.  How it affected
the coal-walker is not within the realm of hard science (excepting
psychology, and I'm not sure if that would be classified as a hard
science -- at least it isn't a PHYSICAL science), and Tim did not attempt
to address it.  If I remember correctly, he SPECIFICALLY stated
something like, "You may have felt empowered by getting up the courage
to walk across the coals, but mental powers do not explain why your feet
were not burnt."  You are reading someone's innocent attempt to explain
something fascinating and enjoyable to people and projecting all your
fears and insecurities onto it.  

>Yes, the physical experience can be
>explained, and this is a legitimate explanation from a scientific viewpoint.

Kindly tell me WHY this is unwelcome on alt.pagan.  Are we all supposed
to switch off our brains when we type "rn?"  I don't know about you, but
my spiritual development and appreciation for the universe is so bound
up with appreciation for its physical rules that I am incapable of being
spirutal WITHOUT thinking of science.  If you can separate them, fine.
But kindly do not force me to do it just because YOU can't think math
and spirituality at the same time.  To some others, they are quite
intimately connected.  

I do not have a "scientific" viewpoint and a "spiritual" viewpoint; I
have ONLY ONE viewpoint, my own, and it will take on a multitude of
characteristics depending on what I'm thinking about and what kind of
mood I'm in today, as well as a host of other things.  Please do not
take an axe to my psyche to split it up into little bits that you can
pigeonhole.  

(I think this is Bill talking)

>I don't think anyone was saying that mystical experiences could be explained,
>at least, not fully. Nor do I think anyone was belittling such experiences.

NO, THEY WEREN'T!!!!

>However, in this case - the mystical experience was not the ability to walk
>on the coals unburned - it was the convincing oneself to do so, in the first
>place and then carrying it through. 

I am in complete agreement.  And (excuse me for raising my voice, but)
THE PHYSICAL SCIENCES DO NOT ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN WHY IT IS SUCH A MOVING
EXPERIENCE.  IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO APPRECIATE THE UNIVERSE AND THINK IN
SCIENTIFIC TERMS AT THE SAME TIME, FINE FOR YOU.  PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT
TO HOBBLE ME SIMILARLY.  I can explain to you how a rainbow is formed.
I also find myself staring slack-jawed at one whenever it pops up.  I
have no problem doing both.  I am also slack-jawed at the rules by which
this universe works that allow such lovely wonders to exist.

If you cannot understand that, too bad.  To me, science IS spiritual,
and I will continue to post scientific things to the net where *I* deem
they are appropriate.  In short, don't tell me how to view the goddess;
I'll see her in my own way, thank you.

Blessings,
Janis


Newsgroups: alt.pagan