From: wagner@spinoza.math.uh.edu (David Wagner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Sola Fide & James 2:24
Date: 19 Aug 92 04:13:37 GMT
Organization: UH Dept of Math

"Eric" == Eric James Ewanco <eje@irenaeus.dec.com> writes:

Eric> In article <Aug.16.00.47.32.1992.23770@athos.rutgers.edu>
Eric> wagner@spinoza.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes:

Eric> Well, I do think that adding _anything_ to the Scriptures, for
Eric> any reason whatsoever, no matter for what intention, is not a
Eric> good idea ...

You bet.  I agree 100%.

[extended deletions]

David> This is what we call `subjective justification'. But justification
David> is still something that God does.  It is not the same as
David> conversion--although that is the impression that I get from some
David> Catholics.

Eric> Yes, justification is done by God alone. I am not sure what you
Eric> mean by the last sentence, though -- how does Luther's
Eric> "subjective justification" relate to conversion? Pre-conversion?

Of course I stated what subjective justification was, without
reference to `objective justification.'  BTW, I think this 
distinction is more recent than Luther, but for all I know
it might be older than Luther.

`Objective justification' means that Christ atoned for the sins
of all men.  All sins are paid for and forgiven, and in a sense, 
for Christ's sake God has declared the whole human race righteous.
This is the meaning of Romans 5:18:  "Consequently, just as the 
result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the 
result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings
life to all men.

However those who, in unbelief, reject Christ, also reject God's
grace and forgiveness.  Thus the salvation which Christ has
won for them is of no benefit.  But those who believe do receive
the full benefit of Christ's redemption--subjective justification.

I mentioned conversion, because many Catholics I have encountered
seemed, at least implicitly, to identify justification with
conversion.  You yourself, have used the words `before justification.'
I don't find it useful or helpful to pin down justification in time.
If I were to do so, I would say that I was justified either at the
time of Christ's resurrection, through which God showed that
Christ's sacrifice was accepted, or I would say that I will be
justified at the Judgement.  Or, since the elect were chosen
before the creation, I might place my justification at that time.

Part of the trouble in placing justification in time, is that
justification is something that God does, and God is outside
of time.  Conversion, on the other hand, is something we experience--
although some of us might experience it as infants, through
baptism.  But even baptism, in the Lutheran viewpoint, is something
that works in us throughout our life, drowning out the sinful
nature in repentance, and strengthening the new man.
  
David> Secondly, James is talking about how we recognize faith. We
David> recognize faith by means of a person's deeds.  As James points out,
David> faith is more than agreement with doctrinal principles.  It shows
David> itself through deeds.  Thus works are the evidence of faith.

Eric> I do not believe that works and faith can be separated -- this
Eric> is what I think James was saying.  To speak of faith apart from
Eric> works is useless, because such a faith cannot save because it
Eric> isn't "real" faith.  In a sense, yes, works are evidence of
Eric> faith -- fruits of faith -- but Jesus says that anyone without
Eric> such fruits will be cut off from the vine and cast into the fire
Eric> of Hell. Work of Christian charity -- again, not works of the
Eric> Law Paul condemned -- complete faith.  If we lack either one, we
Eric> do not have saving faith.

Yes, you are right.  Any Lutheran will say that `faith without works
is dead.'  True, saving faith is inseparable from works.
But Paul's point in Romans is that, for the purpose of justification,
God considers one apart from the other.  I think--and perhaps I
am alone in this viewpoint--the point is that God does not need
to examine our works to know that we have true faith.  He might
hold our good works forth to demonstrate his justice in condemning
the unbelievers.  This seems (to me) to be what is described in
Matthew 25.

David H. Wagner		"By grace I'm save, grace free and boundless;
a confessional 		My soul believe and doubt it not.
Lutheran		Why stagger at this word of promise?
			Hath Scripture ever falsehood taught?
			Nay; then this word must true remain:
			By grace thou too, shalt heav'n obtain.

			By grace! None dare lay claim to merit;
			Our works and conduct have no worth.
			God in His love sent our Redeemer,
			Christ Jesus, to this sinful earth;
			His death did for our sins atone,
			And we are saved by grace alone."
			--Christian L. Scheidt, 1742