HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Still Non-existant Talmud Quotes (was Supposed Talmud ...)
Date: 21 Jan 1993 10:44:50 -0600
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

OK, so we can look up the Moshe HaDarshan quotes.  Thanks, Bill.

But what about the "Oxford Scholars" passage, which Harvey Smith
said would "once and for all" settle the virgin birth issue?

I'd like to see the source for the passage.  I don't see why this
should be so difficult.  If it's in some obscure book, why
not offer to send photocopies of the page on which this appears
and the bibliographic information of the book.  Please post
a U.S. Mail address to which we can send stamped, self-addressed
envelopes to get this information.


Mystery passage quoted by Harvey Smith (passage reformatted):

HS> "Truth shall spring out of the earth", R. Yoden, saith he, notes upon
HS> this place, that it is not said, Truth sahll be born, but shall
HS> spring out; because the generation and the nativity of the Messiah is
HS> not to be as other creatures in the world, but shall be begot without
HS> carnal copulation; and therefore no one hath mentioned his father, as
HS> who must be hid from the knowledge of men til himself shall come and
HS> reveal him.  And upon Genesis: "Ye have said (saith the L-rd), we are
HS> orphans, bereaved o > ther; such a one shall your redeemer be, whom i
HS> shall give you, so upon Zechariah "Behold my servant whose name is
HS> the Branch:" and out of Psalm CX "Thou art a priest after the order of
HS> Melchi Zedek:" he saith, R. Berachiah delivers the s ame things, and R
HS> Simeon Ben Yochai upon Genesis more plainly; viz "That the Spirit, by
HS> the impulse of a mighty power, shall come forth of the womb, though
HS> shut up, that will become a mighty prince, the King Messiah"
-----

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: A Neutral Prayer (was Re: Disproof of "Proof 2")
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<26JAN199322524077@utkvx2.utk.edu> <1993Jan27.051753.23966@netcom.com>
Date: 27 Jan 93 10:05:32

In article <1993Jan27.051753.23966@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
> This says that there are
> three gods (yes, I know, one god, but in a threeish kind of way), and
> that one of them had once had human form. Idolatry. There are numerous
> other examples, such as "and the word was with god, and the word was
> god"; again, polytheism. Two things, both of them gods. (And both the
> same, of course.)

You seem to be purposely misunderstanding the concept of Trinity in a
way to match your expectations of polytheism.  Too bad.  You also are
confusing polytheism with mysticism.  The Word was God, there weren't
two gods.

>   As to Jewish backing for this: The Rambam elucidates what constitutes
>   idolatry. This is laid out in the Mishneh Torah; if you want chapter
>   and verse, I can look it up. One kind of idolatry is to believe that
>   God had taken on a human form. The Rambam allows that this might not
>   be an idolatrous belief when held by a goy; but it is certainly
>   idolatrous when held by a Jew. All of you keep insisting that the NT
>   (except for Luke and Acts) was written by Jews; therefore, it was
>   written by idolators, and is an idolatrous work.

Hmm.  This seems pretty vicious.  I wonder if you can find a biblical
reference that God cannot take on a human form.  The opinion of one
rabbi, even Maimonides, who speaks against Christianity with full
knowledge of its theology is not particularly impressive.  In the
absence of a biblical reference, it can be viewed as a purely
reactionary anti-Christian viewpoint.

Now I can find biblical references that refer to Jewish polytheism in
the Old Testament.  Doesn't Genesis refer to the creation of Adam in
"our form"?  Doesn't David refer to himself and other Jews as "the
gods" in the Psalms?  Does this mean that Judaism is from its
beginning and in its flower also polytheistic and idolatrous?
Does this make the Old Testamet an idolatrous work?

--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
From: marcbg@feenix.metronet.com (Marc Grant)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The Messiah
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:02:11 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Tx Metronet Communications Services, Dallas Tx

In article <1k20q0INNfkr@pollux.usc.edu> kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
>In article <C1E7D1.LzI@feenix.metronet.com> marcbg@feenix.metronet.com (Marc Grant) writes:
>>He will tell us that we are measured by our deeds to serve Hashem, not on
>>whom can make the best argument for one side or the other.
>
>This is the Rabbinic Jewish answer, and is totally contrary to the
>Christian answer.....
And to the others who have commented:

There is one indisputable point in this newsgroup that disgusts me to no
end: Both sides assume they know the absolute truth.  And both of you can
argue (and I've been involved in a few) till your both overcome with
emotion to the point where you both just give up.
Jesus bases his teachings on love.  I don't seem to see that
word thrown around here too much.  Remember, anyone can interpret the
bible any way they want.

Yet, I see very little that is constructive becoming of these arguments. 
Each of you seems to pick a little point on which he or she is a supposed
expert and use it until it is dead.  You satisfy your egos quite a bit.

God will judge man, and NOT vice versa.

Peace 
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Complete verification of Jesus
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1993Jan25.172205.13550@udel.edu>
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:32:40

In article <1993Jan25.172205.13550@udel.edu> carroll@bifur.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll) writes:
>   (Can someone help me find the citation, I believe from Rambam, that it
>   is better to perform Mitzvot without belief, than to have belief but
>   not perform the Mitzvot?)

I've heard this before too, and think that it is a fundamental
theological mistake.  With this tenet, religion is reduced to a
practice, learnable by machine, requiring only outward action and not
inward understanding.  Even worse, religion can be forced on a person,
resulting in outward practice but inward resentment.  Without belief,
any reason for practice depends on outward pressure (peer acceptance)
alone.  It makes for a barren religion.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic,talk.religion.misc,sci.astro
From: pub@riscee.pko.dec.com (Publius)
Subject: Daniel's Prophecy and the 360 day year  (was Re: Length of years)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard MA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 04:38:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.221108.28888@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>Huh? If it took 360 days to go from one equinox to the next than
>very quickly the spring equinox would become the winter equinox....
>This cannot possibly be what you mean to say....

Sorry, I stand corrected.  Usenet posting can sometimes be a humbling
experience ...  It has been quite a while since I read about this.
I think the ancient Babylonians used some kind of astronomical cycle,
which is exactly 360 days, as the basis of their calender, which, of
course, would require periodical adjustment to make it fit with the
seasons, and they used a circle to measure this astronomical cycle,
which became the origin of the 360 degrees/circle in today's geometry.
I think this time I need some help.  I crosspost this to sci.astro.
Maybe some astronomer there can tell me what kind of astronomical cycle
it is.

Anyway, since the Book of Daniel was written in Babylon, it was
perfectly appropriate for it to use the Babylonian 360 day year,
which would mean the exact fulfillment of his famous prophecy of the
70 weeks, in the person of Jesus Christ the Messiah (reference:
Sir Robert Anderson's book "The Coming Prince").

Regards,
-- 
For Christ and His Kingdom
-- Publius
Disclaimer: These opinions are mine, all mine, mine alone.
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: *** MoJ: Midrash exposition on Is 53 & Ps 22 ***
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:44:26 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium


Of all the Midrashim, there is one piece that stands out to a
Messianic.  It is an exposition from Pesikhta Rabbati which
combines the idea that Messiah would suffer for the sins of the
world along with the crucifixion prophecy.

In order to do this piece justice you should familiarize yourself
with both Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22.
===============================================================
Pesikhta Rabbati - Piskas 36.1, 37.1

36.1 At the time of the Messiah's creation, the Holy One, blessed
be He, will tell him in detail what will befall him: There are
souls that have been put away with you under My throne, and it
is their sins which will bend you down under a yoke of iron and
make you like a calf whose eyes grow dim with suffering, and will
choke your spirit as with a yoke; because of the sins of these
souls your tongue will cleave to the roof of your mouth.

37.1 ... It is taught, moreover, that in the month of Nisan the
Patriachs will arise and say to the Messiah: Ephraim, our true
Messiah (*1), even though we are your forbears, you are greater
than we because you did suffer for the iniquities of our
children, and terrible ordeals befell you, such ordeals as did
not befall earlier generations or later ones; for the sake of
Israel you did become a laughingstock and a derision among the
nations of the earth; and did sit in darkness, in thick darkness,
and your eyes saw no light, and your skin cleaved to your bones,
and your body was as dry as a piece of wood; and your eyes grew
dim with fasting, and your strength was dried up like a potsherd
- all these afflictions on account of the iniquities of our
children,...

The nations of the earth will open wide their lips to guffaw...,
as it is said `All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot
out their lip, they shake the head' ` My strength is dried up
like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaves to my throat and you lay
me in the dust of death.'...
 
More(over) they will roar over him like lions as it is said: 
`They open wide their mouth against me, as a ravening and roaring
lion.  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of
joint; my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine
innermost parts'
==============================================================

[If you happen to be checking the above then you might like to
look at piska 33.1 and the whole of piska 36.1 which both mention
the pre-existence of Messiah.]

Vijay (ucakrvb@uk.ac.ucl)

------------------------footnotes-----------------------------
(*1) Ephraim, a name for the suffering Messiah, or Messiah Ben
Joseph (Talmud Sukkah 52a)
-------------------end of footnotes---------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: goff@intruder.navo.navy.mil (Victoria Goff)
Subject: Re: were it not for the VEIL . . .
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-22719]: intruder.navo.navy.mil
Keywords: veil, jew
Reply-To: goff@pops.navo.navy.mil
Organization: POPS Facility Managment
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:42:40 GMT

In article <1je7rlINNr8@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
|> 
|> Rabbinic Jews are incapable of seeing and/or understanding the truth.
|> *Incapable*!  3:16 says that when they turn to G-d, the veil will be
|> removed, but it is also clear that their eyes *are* veiled, making it
|> impossible for them to see the True G-d to turn to.  (See also
|> 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:1,5; John 6:44,65; Acts 5:31,11:18)  It is necessary
|> for God to remove this veil from the eyes of the Rabbinic Jews, to
|> *grant* them repentance, and *cause* them to come to Yeshua before they
|> can see the Truth.  It is exactly the same for the gentiles.  Salvation
|> is truly 100% from the L-RD.
|> 

This put what I have experienced into total perspective. Thanks Ken, very
eloquent and I believe you are exactly right. My personal experience is
my convincing proof. The bible had been a confusing and frustrating book
to me before I was saved. I just could not understand it and it would
amaze me how someone much less educated than I could understand it.

It was not until the day I read the third chapter of John did the veil
fall from my eyes and I began to see what certainly had been hidden
for so many years. The moment that veil falls, you have to make a 
decision, and to reject Christ is to refuse God! I'll never forget
that day that in a split second, I couldn't understand and then I
could. I will never forget the reading I did, day and night for about
a week, the joy to understand and the faith to believe. Wow, it has
been fourteen years and I still remember like it was yesterday.

Good topic of discussion. I hope there will be some good contributions.

-Victoria Goff 

Disclaimer - My opinions are my own.
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Disproof of "Proof 2" (was *** MoJ: Proof 2: The Passover Prophecy ***)
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:19:16 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1jvcalINNouf@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
[...]
> 
>Finally, there is a passage in Isaiah 53 which shows us that Jesus was
>*certainly* not the messiah.  In Isaiah 53:10, it says that "he shall
>see his seed, he shall be prolonged in his days."  This means that the
>subject of Isaiah 53 will have children (seed) and will live a long life.  
>Any learned Christian will tell you that neither of these is true of the
>life of Jesus.  
>
\\\\\

Uh - my 'unlearned' friend - what don't you know ? ;-)

The great Rabbi Akiva is called "father" of very many of his spiritual 
offspring, whom he taught to be teachers, even though Akiva had no 
biological children of his own. Who are his offspring, then?

And who are the children of God, if not those who have the spirit of
God? Only those of Jewish ancestry?

Jesus said that his followers were his true family, more than his flesh
and blood; that no one should boast because of their fathers' on 
account of their faith, because God could make children of Abraham out
of stones. So did Paul say that we were children of Abraham, primarily
because we share in God's faith in God (which makes for righteousness).

Then, considering all this - of Jewish and Christian tradition as well
- Who are the offspring of Jesus?! And as you wonder - how many are there
in the world ?!

--------------
Where is God's providence in this? (We know very well that some ancient
Jewish interpreters referred Isaiah 52-53 to the Messiah. By the way,
as I have remarked before, by change of one letter in the Hebrew text,
the minor Qumran Isaiah text says the servant was 'anoited'. (This is
not the famous text displayed prominently in Israel.) What is interesting
about this, is that subsequent Jewish tradition, long after the MT edition,
refers to Isaiah 52-53 as Messianic, apparently with a crucial 
re-interpretation of the same one verb. A puzzle, unless they consider
alternative spellings, like that found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.)
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: *** MoJ: Proof 4c: Chronology (3 of 3) ***
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:37:59 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium


Here are a few more notes to finish off the chronology proof.

(1) There are other suggestions that we might be living near the
6,000th year such as Ezekiel 38:8 which states that Israel will be
restored in the 'latter years'.  Also for those of use who study and
believe the New Testament there is Matt 24:3-8 (the birthpangs) and
Luke 21:24 (the end of Gentile rule of Jerusalem).

(2) The passages of Ezekiel 38 & 39 describe the failed Russian
invasion of Israel in the 'latter years'. If this invasion happens in
our lifetimes then we must conclude that we are living close to the
6,000th year and hence Jesus came at the 4,000th year.

(3) Here are some more buzz words for believing that the 6,000 years
are almost completed:

Murder, Drugs, Prostitution, Child Abuse, Pornography, Pollution,
Nuclear Dumping, Greenhouse Effect, Yugoslavia, Iraq.....

Please add as much as you want to this list.  The world is one big time
bomb and if we dont have a second visitation from our God then it will
explode in our lifetimes.

Vijay (ucakrvb@uk.ac.ucl)
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: A Neutral Prayer (was Re: Disproof of "Proof 2")
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:17:53 GMT
Organization: Castle Anthrax

In article <26JAN199322524077@utkvx2.utk.edu> fnixon@utkvx2.utk.edu (Nixon, John Fred) writes:
>In article <1993Jan27.005404.12705@netcom.com>, solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes...
>>....and the Qur'an, and the Baghavad Gita, and the Poetic and Prose
>>Eddas. Why give one pagan scripture pride of place over the others?
>> 
>>Allow me to apologize for that. I was out of line in calling the
>>Qur'an pagan; it, unlike the other scriptures above, is solidly
>>monotheistic.  It is erroneous, but at least it isn't idolatrous.
>
>Please post a proof that the New Testament is polytheistic, or offer
>an apology. I do not think it is in the Jewish tradition to call
>CHristians idolators. If it is traditional, then please give me a citation 
>for the belief.

Nothing simpler. As to the first request (find an idolatrous NT
verse), I offer this as just one example: "There are three that are
honored in heaven, and these are the father, the son, and the holy
ghost; and these three are one. [chas v'shalom]" (I don't remember the
exact verse, but I'm sure one of you does.) This says that there are
three gods (yes, I know, one god, but in a threeish kind of way), and
that one of them had once had human form. Idolatry. There are numerous
other examples, such as "and the word was with god, and the word was
god"; again, polytheism. Two things, both of them gods. (And both the
same, of course.)

As to Jewish backing for this: The Rambam elucidates what constitutes
idolatry. This is laid out in the Mishneh Torah; if you want chapter
and verse, I can look it up. One kind of idolatry is to believe that
God had taken on a human form. The Rambam allows that this might not
be an idolatrous belief when held by a goy; but it is certainly
idolatrous when held by a Jew. All of you keep insisting that the NT
(except for Luke and Acts) was written by Jews; therefore, it was
written by idolators, and is an idolatrous work.

Q.E.D.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
From: friedenb@walnut.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Disproof of "Proof 2" (was *** MoJ: Proof 2: The Passover Prophecy ***)
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:17:40 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@walnut.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.8.14.30


In article <1993Jan25.160835.35787@ucl.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) writes:

>Please post up a proper refutation of proof 1 which involves 
>typing out the fulfilment not haphazard aspersions.

Not all prophesy has been fulfilled.  Just because I can show that Jewish
prophecies have not been fulfilled through Jesus does not imply that 
they have been fulfilled otherwise.  Is is not possible that prophecy
has not been fulfilled *yet*?

>Thank you.

Your welcome.  

>Vijay

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Complete verification of Jesus
Date: 21 Jan 93 17:47:22 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

In article <1jh9goINNgvm@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>when moshiach does come, he will get things done right the first
>time around.  After that, he can come back as many times as he wants
>and join in the post-moshiach utopia.
>


It really depends on your interpretation of getting it right
first time.  The Jews of Jesus' day believed that Messiah would
lead them to victory over the Romans so he failed.   

The Jews of today believe that Messiah has to rebuild the Temple
and so on so again Jesus failed.  But if you believe SCRIPTURE   
(and I do) then Messiah has to do the following:

Offer himself as a sacrifice for sin (Isaiah 53)
Be crucified (Psalm 22)
Be cut off 69 x 7 years after the decree of Nehemiah (Dan 9, Neh1 & 2)

then he succeeded.


If all the Jews had believed in Jesus then they would have  a pretty hard
time convincing the rest of the world that their prophecies were genuine,
but the fact that the Jews dont believe is great.

Example: A friend said to me "How do you know that the Old Testament
prophecies were written down at least 400 years before the event?"

My reply "Ask a Jew" (i.e. if they werenot then Judaism would be a 
ponitless religion started by Christians)

To end off: The fact that Jesus didnot fulfil all the Scriptures is 
crucial in witnessing.  I have often said to people:

"Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies of his first coming.  The prophecies
of his second coming talk about the unbelievers being judged as 
unrighteous and thrown into Hell.... Are you willing to take the risk
that he WONT fulfil them?"

Chilling! But it seems to have an effect.

Vijay (ucakrvb@uk.ac.ucl)
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Working on it
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:54:30 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <KRULWICH.93Jan21124427@zowie.ils.nwu.edu> krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich) writes:
[...]
>I want to announce to everyone that I am the Moshiach.
>
>Granted, I'm not a leader of the Jews, but I'm working on it.
[...etc...]
\\\\\\\
You're a twit - but I guess you're working on it ;-)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Complete verification of Jesus
Date: 25 Jan 1993 07:58:42 -0600
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <24JAN199314040627@utkvx2.utk.edu> you write:

> that anyone who declares someone as Messiah before all the
> requirements are complete can't be part of Judiasm? Are the Chabad
> Jews now separate from the Jewish people because they believe they
> know who the Messiah is... before world peace arrives?

They believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the person in this
generation (every generation has one) who is the *potential* Messiah
(Hezkat Moshiach) and who would be restored to full health and
anointed the actual Messiah (Moshiach Vadai) if G-d wished for the
Messianic age to begin now.  Some of the breathless, unauthorized
newspaper ads which individuals in Chabad occasionally place don't
always make the potential/actual distinction clear, and I have
complained about this to Chabad friends of mine.

Rob

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
Newsgroups: alt.messianic