From: knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim Nguyen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: Re :To Tin, Tung et al: VN OR NOT VN?
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:06:53 GMT
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa

You said :

>Our "Chairman" Tin Le, Tung Le and all involved,

>I have followed your discussion (on whether we should
>help VN) with great interest.  I don't think anybody is right or
>wrong, just timely or not.  Of course, most of us would like to help our then
>fatherland no matter what your citizenship is.  TIMING has to do with
>everything. Tung with his great enthusiasm wants to do it 'now' while most of 
>you clearly showed your stance.

Hi,

I am impressed at your good viewpoint, but there are still many thoughts which
always weigh upon my mind. I would like to share with you arguments as follows 
:

-Why do we appear here in US or else ? Obviously, we haven't come here to seek 
food. If so, what is the significance of our life overseas ? Did our parents
who have brought us here IN FEAR make a big mistake ? In this case, we should 
get back where we come from; if not, our existence has no meaning at all. It 
is 
ILLOGICAL to help communists with the pretext to bring the kind of comfort to 
Vietnamese because there is no such thing done successfully anywhere. If that 
is
what we believe we did ignore case histories where there were only bitterness 
and remorse. Politically, it is a suicidal. Morally, we did BETRAY OUR 
COMMUNITY.
To me, helping communist Vietnam NOW is wrong  and inconsiderate : we would 
consolidate a regime which Vietnamese at home are living uneasily with.

-Has TIMING something to do with that political decision ? I think yes. Right 
now Vietnam is still at the bottom of human rights scale although they claim 
that they did have some progress in economy. As you can see CORRUPTION is the 
NORM of this sort of ruling which did make Soviets bring communism down. This 
system of corruption are totally siphoning all resources into the apparatus 
from the top to the bottom. Did communist Soviets drain almost all resources
although they have huge ones ? This corruption must exist so that they can 
keep 
intact the loyalty and to keep the doctrine floating. How much wealth is left 
to ameliorate the life of citizens ? Is there any institution functioning as a 
wacth-dog ? Every time there is any scandal, they hide it or replace officials 
with the same type : can we go back there to make a change ? No way ! We  help 
them right now to get better but we have no clue to monitor the distribution 
and spending that wealth and to yield a political reform. There is no hint 
that 
going back home would bring a guaranteed success. Do we *trao tru+'ng cho 
a'c * at this timing ? SUPPOSE THAT THE ECONOMIC REFORM IS SUCCESSFUL BUT THEY 
REFUSE TO MAKE A POLITICAL YIELD AND DISTRIBUTE WEALTH TO CITIZENS, WHAT 
EXCUSES
WE WILL MAKE LATER ?

>You share with Tung one thing that is YOU ALL CARE!
>In my opinion name calling and the like is really not called for and I
>wish those who would like to speak up their mind would do so without
>belittling others.  Although his opinions are not in the same line as
>yours, he does have some valid points;  one of which is the impending threat
>that China (the sleeping giant up to now, and may I add their puppet,the
>Khmer Rouge, as well as the increasingly militant Japan) is posing to the
>survival of our fatherland.  That is not to mention the economic pressure from
>the Asian giants and emerging tigers in the region.  What does the
>Vietnamese government do in the face of these threats?  Nero fiddling while
>Rome burned would be a good analogy.

I don't agree with this argument. China was and will be our threat when they 
still keep looking at Vietnam as another Chinese province. China will invade 
and annexe Vietnam as Vietnam did annexe Laos and Cambodia ? This threat is 
originated from Ho-Chi-Minh who have tried to lure both big brothers to get
armaments and else to invade SVN and, as a result, we become a nobody. This
threat is no way to be erased from communist Chinese's mind when communist 
Vietnam don't want to pay back what they have owed : they have to turn blind 
eyes to some occupations. What moral view will communist Vietnam have to show 
the world ? Did Lipeng make an insolent trip to Vietnam while communist 
Vietnam 
must keep silent, inferior and dependent ? Politically, communist Vietnam has
no way to discourage that bullying ?

About Khmer Rouge : it is so provident. We can put Khmer Rouge aside as a 
threat
because we are the one.

My constructive suggestion is Vietnam must move quickly towards a political
reform ahead of economic one. With this change, Vietnam would be embraced by 
ASEAN and consolidate a political fortress to make China rethink any move. 
Vietnam should show a goodwill to the free world by democranizing the ruling, 
by releasing political opponents and getting rid of Machivellian and crafty 
tricks towards citizens. If they don't do it right now, sooner or later their
citizens will do it.

>However, we as those outside with more freedom to
>act would have only ourselves to blame if one day poor Vietnam is just
>a pool of unskilled labor in an increasingly global market or worse off yet,
>again under foreign occupation!!!  Sounds far off?  I think not.  If you
>take a look back at the region's history and look forward to the 21st global
>market, you would agree with me.

Foreign occupying economically and then politically ? Maybe, if Vietnam do not
change the system now. In reality, I don't think we can use that as a pretext 
to
help them. As a matter of fact, they don't need Vietnamese overseas 
desperately;
remember they still let students go abroad to learn skills. They can do the 
reform with a space which their existence can hold with. What they are afraid 
of
is that Vietnamese overseas to use their vote and political influence to 
encourage them to treat citizens more kindly. The power is theirs to make all 
change; our duty is to influence our adopted country to help them when they 
abide with political reform. Diplomatically, they still show resentment towards
the country they want to cooperate with : do they still hold some political 
card
to play ?

>It would be ideal if there are no extremists from either side (VN
>Commies, and fervent anticommunists especially in the US) and all of us think
>of ourselves as WE or US intead of enemies.  However, we are living in a
>political world and have to do our best in this environment.

Foreigners can have that view because anticommunism or not does not affect
them at all : they lose nothing. But, we did live under the regime, know it
and almost lose life because of it : anticommunist is illogical for us ? Did
they sinle us out of their plan ?

>I truly believe that an average Vietnamese, be it in VN or overseas, really
>does not give a hoot about the ideology game.  (Please look around you with
>observing eyes.) 

It is the first time I hear that from our community. On many forums else, 
I often hear about this argument, but in this forum, someone must make an
extreme leap of logic to convince Vietnamese refugees in US that liking 
comunist is right. In a street, if we intercept a Vietnamese and ask them 
whether he likes to cooperate with communist Vietnam Ithink that guy will say 
that we are mad. I don't know where I can have that observation.

Vietnam has sent lots of * va<n no^* to play an ideology game overseas and 
recently they try to boost Tri.nh-co^ng-So+n who is another *nha.c-co^ng a<n 
co+m quo^'c gia tho+` ma co^.ng sa?n *. I really don't agree with you about 
this
argument at all. An intellectual worker like TCS has no self-respect left when 
living under that regime : is it far-fetched  as some netter saying comunists 
see intellectuals not worth than feaces ?

>And that most of us are tired of the perpetual cycle
>of vengeance, bloodshed and the like.  WE both overseas and inside VN
>(and I emphasize inside Vietnam!) got to realize that the days of ideology
>war are over.  Let go of them!  There is just too much to do ahead of us.

Vengeance and bloodshed ? Who did and is doing it ? To understand about the
depth of this matter, we should make a risky experiment to merge into Vietnam
society now before we can have any valid and practical suggestion. To me, I did
have it unsuccesfully and did escape. To study is to be skeptical and prudent. 
Once I heard about Le-Trie^'t (please correct me if I'am wrong) who and his 
wife
were eliminated right in US. Do we know that a communist never try to deny his
status, only *nhu+~ng ke? ddo'n gio' tro+? co+`* would always want to hide 
their
status fervently : IT IS THESE ONES WHO HARM MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE OVERSEAS ! 

What to do ahead ? My suggestion is to influence our country's government to
put human rights and political reform as conditions for trade, normalization
and help. Of course, at this timing, some Vietnamese is going to change boat 
irresponsibly : we are trying to know everything before they decide to do the
most dangerous thing in their life !

The days of ideology war are over ? To foreigner or to Vietnamese ( I mean real
Vietnamese ) ? Do communist Vietnam say so ?


>It's now time to rebuild which is going to be much more challenging
>and require more of us than tearing the country apart with guns from
>foreigners.  Neither is it time to point fingers at each other for
>what already happened.  Do you want Vietnam to be another tiger in the
>region ? if not it has no choice but be a chicken (a Japanese chicken! because
>Japan is going to be the controlling force in the region).


Tiger of the region ? IS THERE ANY COMMUNIST TIGER OF THIS SORT IN THE REGION 
? 
We can read news from NT to know the assessment if they still keep that rigid 
and inefficient socialism : HISTORY SAYS THAT SOCIALISM ALWAYS CREATES IMPROPER
ENVIRONMENT FOR AN ECONOMIC GROWTH.I agree with you about Japan's tricks, but 
why
don't VN create a really political reform to gather all Vietnamese overseas ?
Is this suggestion unreasonable ? It is the ideology and its application to 
bar 
every cooperation.

Furthermore, to become a Tiger to make *lua^.t ru+`ng xanh * or to help
sincerely its citizens who have suffered enough ?


>It is time for the Vietnamese government to stop their human
>rights violations as well as corruption and other injustices in Vietnam.  It
>is also time for us, I mean us OVERSEAS, to stop discouraging those who
>would like to do their part to help out the people in Vietnam in the form of
>encouraging investments or humanitarian aids.  Of course some of these
>monies will find their way to the wrong people in Vietnam.  Therefore,
>ways to help prevent this kind of abuse are to be thought of, instead
>of NOT doing anything at all.  One of the prevention methods may be
>through a trust-worthy third party to ensure that the resources you send there
>to help won't end up in the wrong hands.  One point to remember:  the
>inner party members are ALWAYS fat no matter what happens.  It is the common
>folks (da^n -den) that we are concerning ourselves with.  These are
>the ones who will have more to gain or lose at the end, who will really
>count at the end.  How I wish VN (then due to arrogance) and
>the US (now about face) would stop playing hardball at the expense of
>the Vietnamese people -- included here is a generation of young
>people, who will be the rebuilders of Vietnam.

Too many conflicts in your statements which can not co-xist well. We must
choose one at the expense of the other. No *da^n dden* would like them to
exist that is why *co^ng-an o+? dda^`y ddu+o+`ng*. Do you know that ? But if
some want to go ahead, even God can't stop them, but remember we are all
grown-up and take all responsibility of our action towards Vietnamese 
community.


All would go illogical from the start : Until now we don't know why we
are here and there ! Our stance was once that  we could not accept to live with
communists. Our family would gather all means to let us go to get a
good future and hope that we can prepare for building a democratic Vietnam. 
What
do they expect from us ? Do they want their relatives to come back to help the 
regime they don't want ? Why do we forget that goal ? How long does it take to 
change that society when we try to consolidate it ? It took 80 years for them 
to
get the power, why for only 18 years we must give up the goal towards 
democranization ? Why are we so nervous to change that stance ? WHAT IS BEHIND
THAT MOTIVE ?
 
Why do we let a female foreigner like CHRISTINA short of money to work lonely 
and in a small and cold broadcasting station in Moscow to help Vietnamese to 
understand about democracy ? HAVE VIETNAMESE SELF-RESPECT ?

Will we want Americans to laugh at us ? Do they open arms to welcome us in 
order to see us to show inconsistency ? ARE VIETNAMESE DECEPTIVE ? Why do some
call us *dink* even we are not Vietcong ? Is it partly because some *con sa^u
la`m ra^`u no^`i canh * ?

Did free countries give us freedom only to see us to use that freedom to help 
others to curb that ideal. ARE OUR VIETNAMESE PEOPLE WORTH BEING MOCKED ?
 
Do Cubans in exile to go back to help Cuba ? This only happens to Vietnamese 
exiles ! ARE VIETNAMESE CHICKENS ?

Chinese exiles in US are fond of democranization in China. They are all young
and bright intellectuals in their homeland. Some of us are backing away from 
it 
with the pretext that ideological stuff is gabbage. ARE VIETNAMESE MATURE IN
POLITICS ?

The reason we should not help them because they would use this not to make our 
relatives at home better but to pay debt ! Our workers now are exported to
South Korea and else to get hard currency for communist ruling. To help them 
is 
clearly to encourage them to keep that regime. Do our parents in Vietnam want 
that regime last forever. To help them is to betray people who died. We talk 
about morality to help Vietnam, but truly we did break it. ARE VIETNAMESE 
IMMORAL ?

Communist Vietnam let people go because :

-they want to get properties for North Vietnamese officials to replace
people of previous regime who were put in education camps (hundred thousands of
them).

-Indirectly to get rid of men/women hard to be converted.

-These could be used to bring hard currency to help their economy.

They can recruit naive ones to go back to help them, especially young ones who 
are too energetic and too enthusiastic to rush into the trap and ignore why we 
have to go to school : to study is to be clear-sighted and conceived. Why don't
they concentrate in stimulating them to change the system ?


>A few words to Tung and his friend:  I really
>admire you for standing up to what you believe in despite numerous
>criticism.  Please don't let that discourage you from speaking up in
>the future;  I would like to hear how new investments and
>joint-ventures are taking shape in Vietnam.  Sure that will create jobs for 
the
>people as well as excellent opportunities for them to come in contact with
>the outside.  As far as the comments go, despite of the emotions, all of
>us are just trying to help; so take everything with a grain of salt. 
>Also, try to listen to the "WISDOM of the old", believe in yourself and you
>will be all right.  Best of luck to you.


A few words to friends : you should rethink what you are doing. As I said,
don't be afraid of criticism. Here are all cons you can think of besides your
pros. That is all you can know and put into your luggage besides your 
profession. Now you are well-informed ! Don't feel bad about these words. If I 
don't feel that once you and I lived on the same boat and share the same 
suffering on the way to escape just to carry out *hoa`i ba?o*, I won't say 
anything. If I don't concern about you I would fawn on your plan.

Please remember :     Tra<m na<m bia dda' va^~n mo`n,

                      Nga`n na<m bia mie^.ng va^~n co`n tro+ tro+.
                                          
                                          
>For those who would like to go back to help the people, I would
>ENCOURAGE them.  By that I mean those who are willing to go across the
>political boundries, willing to sacrifice a comfortable life in the
>US, and really want to help the people their with their knowledge or
>financial resources.  Just prepare yourself well, arm yourself with
>leverage and alliance, and be really cautious because you are going to
>on their turf.   And for those who want to show off, to
>wear "ao' ga^'m ve^` la`ng", or to buy a petty title in the seemingly
>welcome government :  don't even THINK of it !!!!!

*Willing to sacrifice a comfortable life* : are you sincere to say that or 
just a kidding ? Do you think that we did not go through tough time here
to build a good community, not a beggar's one ? WE WORK SO HARD !


>In conclusion, Tung and all of you who have been involved in the
>discussion on to help or not to help all have your own merits.  You
>just differ in the time frame (or conditions) that you want to carry out
>your plans.

As I said the TIMING OR CONDITIONS DID MAKE  BIG DIFFERENCES.

>To those who have the same "hoa`i ba?o" as me that is to be
>able to help our fatherland and our people, I send my best and hope that we
>will be able to work together some day.  I believe together we can
>solve anything;  let's forget the notion of waiting around for a "-da^'ng
>Anh Qua^n" for directions.  What we need to know or to do is already in
>your heart, in your blood.  As for my new year wish, here is to a brighter
>future of Vietnam or Ta^n Vie^t. that we all will be proud of !!!

I agree.



>    Happy New Year to you and your loved ones.


Great to read your posting ! While typing this posting I still hear the video
tape from *Pha.m-Duy : Con Ngu+o+`i va` Ta'c Pha^?m *. I must go to see it now.

Chu'c ba.n va` gia-ddi`nh nhie^`u to^'t dde.p trong na<m mo+'i !
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese