From: asd@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Doug McClure)
Subject: Re: NeXT Prices: They appear too high for me!
Organization: Purdue University
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 04:35:16 GMT

In <19062@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> putzolu@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (David Putzolu) writes:

>Hi NeXT advocates. I've been lurking around the C.S.Next groups
>for awhile, and am quite impressed with your machine. Preemptive MT,
>MACH kernel, NextStep, IB, bundled apps, etc., make the NeXT quite
>an impressive computer. One thing I am still unconvinced about is
>price. The following is a comparison based on the educational
>prices available at the University of California at Davis.

>Quadra 700, 4MB, No HD  :  3327       NeXTstation Turbo, 16MB,
>Add 4MB via mail order  :   120         250MH HD                :   4575
Add 8 more MB.

>120 MB HD via mail order:   329       MegaPixel Monochome       :    797
How about upping the harddrive to a 250MB??

>Mac 16"  Color Monitor  :  1144       NeXT "Starting Point" Kit :    179
This should be mono if you really want to compare the two.

>Apple Extended Keyboard :   159
>TOTALS:                 $ 5,079                                  $ 5,551

>I admit that the Next Configuration shown here has more resources in
>terms of processor power, memory, hard drive, etc., but it appears to
>me that the NeXT OS consumes most of these resources itself. Display
>postscript (I assume) is what causes the Turbo to _not_ appear as 

DPS is a big processor cruncher, but remember, this is a UNIX machine,
and while it may look like it's only running a couple of things, there
are probably at least a dozen plus in the background making things
very nice for the user.

>responsive as the 700. Similarly, I assume that NextStep's resource

I don't know, but I've always found my NeXT a hell of a lot more
responsive than ANY Mac I've worked on.

>requirements cause the slowness seen when a NextStation tries to run
>multiple programs when configured with 8MB. I am running 

>MicroSloth Word 5 (a notorious pig), MacLayers, a calculator, the finder,
>a couple of random small apps, and still have enough free to load up
>Hypercard or Think Pascal. Without thrashing, slow response time, etc.

So what?  I'm running the Workspace (finder equiv), VirtSpace, Stuart
(terminal emulator), Preferences (aka Control Panel), FaxMonitor,
Edit, WriteNow, Preview, Librarian, Rulers, DataPhile.  If you count
all the other Unix programs working behind the scenes, my machine is
running a total of 52 programs.  Try that on a Mac and then get back
to me.

>I have 256 color _fast_ graphics, and _plenty_ of free space on my

Yes, but what kind of graphics?  Do they transfer to the printed page
simply w/o any problems in conversion?  My NeXT's do.  And that color
is a CLUT which is good and bad.  Depends on how you look at it.

>105MB hard drive (don't be confused here, the above Quadra listed is
>not what I have, but is instead listed as what I consider to be
>something comparable to the NeXT that is listed above).

Not even close.  If you want to compare then memory should be the
same, harddrives the same, screens the same.  And then you should talk
about software.  What's a Mac come with?  The Finder?  What's a NeXT
come with?  UNIX, Development tools, actual applications.  The price
you list for a Mac is very deceiving.  Add all the tools that a NeXT
comes with as standard and then get back to me with a price
comparison.  That's let's see, Edit, IB, Librarian, Oxford Quotations,
Webster, IconBuilder, ANSI C/C++/Objective C compilers, the UNIX
tools, etc.

>Try to put a development system, a good word
>processor, + misc other stuff on a NeXT w/less than 250 MB HD. Try to
>run them quickly on a NeXT with 8MB.

I actually used a 105MB system for quite awhile.  One can put all
those things on a NeXT if you want to toss out some of the 'fluff'
stuff like all the documentation (care to show me where a Mac has
40Meg+ of documentation on line?)

Mine worked when it was just a 8Mb system quite fine as long as I
wasn't doing a lot else.  But read my bits, a NeXT is a UNIX
workstation.  It does a LOT more than any Mac does while it's running.
If one were to convert the NeXT into a non-UNIX, Mac like clone, it'd
kick the Mac's butt to Pluto.  UNIX workstations eat memory and
harddrives for breakfast.  I wouldn't for the life of me get a
workstation that didn't have 24Mb ram, and half a gig to a gig of disk
space.  If I was on a PC/Mac, I'd get by fine with 8Mb and a 100 meg
hard drive.  But I wouldn't expect to have the amount of power and
flexibility that I have with my NeXT.

>Please, don't get me wrong. I am _not_ trying to cut down on NeXT.
>I really like what I have heard, and have enjoying playing with one
>at the University thieves den ^H^H^H^H^H^H uhh, computer shop. I
>wouldn't mind selling my computer to get a NeXT, but it seems to me
>that I would end up paying more money for a system that is less
>responsive (DPS), less visually appealing (4 Grays v. 256 Colors), and

I don't know what you've been doing but DPS is hardly slow from
anything I've seen.  3.0 is slower overal because it's doing more, but
that isn't DPS's fault.  There are those who'd say that 4 colors
applied well is a lot better than 256 applied indiscriminately.
Personally I think my monochrome NeXT looks a LOT better than any
color souped up Mac.

>less expandable (700 has 2 NuBus slots, 1 Processor Direct Slot, and
>a ROM simm slot that can be used to upgrade my machine to 33Mhz
>for < $400). Or have I missed something?

Sure, those are definite features.  The NeXTstation really needs 3
slots like Sun's have.  But a lot of your comments aren't really on
target, or at the least are lacking information you need to make a
smart choice.

If you want to talk about overpriced, the Mac is probably THE most
overpriced computer on the market. 50% or more of the price you pay is
pure profit.  I remember when Steve Jobs said that they could make
Mac's for ~$500 (back when he worked for Apple), but you'd have to pay
several grand for it.  I remember when MacWorld (or some other such)
had a price breakdown on how much a Mac cost.  Totally ridiculous how
overpriced they were.

Sure the NeXT is overpriced.  But what computer other than PC clones
isn't?  But I'd be shooting myself in the head if I'd paid for a Mac
instead of a NeXT, because I just can't get anything done on a Mac/PC
anymore nowadays.  I've got to have the power of a real UNIX
workstation, with the ease of use of a Mac.  I couldn't get that on a
Mac no matter how much I paid.

-dsm