HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop
Subject: Re: lvars and standards (was: Re: List and Vector Syntax)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 23:12:38 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu

ianr@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Ian Rogers) writes:
>I have met noone who can provide a rational argument for dynamic
>locals over lexical locals! [...]
>lvars as default is a Good Thing, the One True Way, there Can Be No
>Argument!!!!! :-)

I'm not a Pop programmer, but I've been teaching and programming using
both Logo (dynamic scope) and Scheme (lexical scope) for many years.
I can see good arguments on both sides.  I'm really happy to have both
languages available to me.

There are two main things that I like about dynamic scope in Logo:

1.  I find that debugging is easier for a beginner, who has no model of
frames, bindings, and all that, in a dynamically scoped language.  When
an error happens in Logo, the error handler just gives you a Logo prompt
in the environment where the error happened -- and *all* the relevant
variables in all the procedures higher up the stack are automatically
available in the usual way.  By contrast, in lexically scoped Scheme, there
is a special debugging language that has commands to shift focus from one
environment to another.

2.  It's easy to write control structures like WHILE in Logo because
expressions are first-class.  You say

	to while :condition :action
	if not RUN :CONDITION [stop]
	RUN :ACTION
	while :condition :action
	end

The parts in capital letters evaluate an expression given as argument.
Under dynamic scope, the variables of the procedure that invoked WHILE
are available.  To do something similar in a lexically scoped language
you have to explicitly create and pass a closure instead of just passing
the expression:

	Logo:  while [:x > 0] [make "x :x-1]

	Scheme: (while (lambda () (> x 0))
		       (lambda () (set! x (- x 1))) )

It's the lambdas I'm objecting to.  (Yes, you can use macros so it looks
nicer, but the Logo way is something a fifth-grader can understand.)


These arguments aren't meant to say that dynamic scope is always the right
thing.  Of course if you're trying to write a procedure that returns another
procedure, lexical scope is very helpful.  I'm just reacting to the
one-sidedness of the previous message.
From: kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 08:46:17 GMT
Subject: Re: lvars and standards (was: Re: List and Vector Syntax)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop

In article ... ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:

   Having been hacking in 'C' for the last ..cough.. years I can't understand
   why there wasn't a 'C' implementation of POP done a long time ago.

   I hope the work on Pepper is being done in a portable fashion.

The present (bootstrap) implementation is done by via a byte-coded 
interpreter written in ANSI C, and appears to run on an Arc under 
RISC OS and HP9000/300s, /400s, and 7|8-00's with only minor tweaks 
to the configuration file. Steve and I are occasionally working on 
a Mac port, and if someone was really convincing reason I'd look at
doing it on a PC.

Native-code compilers are another matter; I intend to do an Arc one,
but the other platforms, well, SOP.

[Performance of the interpreter isn't too hot, but there's plenty of
room for improvement yet.]
--

Regards,    | ``The French teacher does not threaten. She says, | Teen
Kers.       | "s'il vous plait"''.                              | Agent
From: kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 09:55:59 GMT
Subject: Re: List and Vector Syntax (long)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop

Aaron writes:

   Having considered Steve Knight's responses to my criticisms of
   the Pepper proposals for changing the quotation conventions in
   Pop-11 I now accept that those proposals are workable and probably
   preferable to the current Pop-11 conventions, given the use of "\"
   as a reserved text item to get over the difficulties I described.

   I have not thought through the implications of using "\" in this
   role, nor whether this is consistent with its use as the standard
   `alphabeticiser' as in "don\'t" which should create a word
   containing an apostrophe.

It isn't (consistent with its use as a standard alphabeticiser). Pepper
doesn't have the notion of alphabeticiser; it has something else instead.

For quoting unusual words (ie, one's that don't form normal Pepper
items) you merely need to quote an escaped string; Aarons example
above becomes

    "\'don\'t'"

The quotes establish the quote context. The first backslash says 
``this actual word (and if it's a string, convert it)''. Then there's
a string literal, inside which the backslash means ``special case 
follows'' -- here, insert the quote in the string, rather than take it
as the terminator. 

For those brave or perverted enough (such as Certain People who use
identifiers containing control characters in their code), Pepper allows
a string prefixed by a backslash to be used as an identifier *anywhere*
-- just as any word prefixed by a backslash can be used as an identifier.
Thus, if you want to write

    42 -> \'Ring\(7)';

you can.
--

Regards, Kers.
"If anything anyone licks, they'll find it all ready in sticks."
From: pop@cs.umass.edu ( Robin Popplestone )
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop
Subject: lvars syntax
Summary: initialised variables can be a death-trap
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:22:29 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Originator: pop@roo.cs.umass.edu

The "new innovation" (to quote the Scotsman) of some years ago which
permits one to initialise variables is of course very desirable EXCEPT that
it is awfully easy to have a semicolon where you need a comma

  lvars fred = 2; joe = 6;
puts a boolean on the stack.... This is of course the sort of syntax that
Aaron is most down on....
Robin
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop
From: axs@cs.bham.ac.uk (Aaron Sloman)
Subject: Re: Grandmothers and eggs
Organization: School of Computer Science, University of Birmingham, UK
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 09:10:20 GMT

pop@cs.umass.edu ( Robin Popplestone ) writes:

> Date: 11 Jan 93 13:54:07 GMT
> Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
>
> Since not all of us were around in the sixties, I thought it might be
> useful to point out that Ray Dunn was the person who really got POP-2
> (complete with incremental compiler) to the state of being a tool that
> worked well enough to support the work of one of the leading AI research
> groups in the world.

As one of the people who benefited from that work at the time, even
though I was at Sussex not at Edinburgh, I can confirm this.

Am I right in thinking that that version was mostly written in
assembler?

I believe Robert Rae's Wonderpop was mostly written in DEC-10
assembler, and also Julian Davies' Pop10 system?

At Sussex, Frank O'Gorman later implemented a Pop2 in a mixture of
Algol-68 and Pop2 for the ICL 1906A in the late 1970s. It was used
for a while on a vision research project led by Max Clowes, using an
ICL machine at the Rutherford Lab to which they had a remote
connection.

> An interesting question - what is the history of incremental compilation?
> We were not aware that it was done anywhere else at the time.

As far as I know, Maclisp, developed at MIT was also incrementally
compiled in the early and mid 70's, whereas other versions
(Interlisp, UCI-Lisp, .... ???) were interpreted, and giving Lisp a
bad name for speed!

I don't know whether the MIT incremental compiler work was developed
under the influence of the Edinburgh work (quite a lot of MIT people
had visited Edinburgh for the Machine Intelligence workshops in the
60s and 70s) or whether it was completely independent.

I believe the incremental compilers for Lisp in the USA used not to
garbage collect compiled functions (nor arrays?) until recently (mid
80s??) whereas compiled Pop-2 functions were already garbage
collectable by the time I met Pop-2 in 1972, and in every other Pop
system I have met.

Aaron
-- 
Aaron Sloman,
School of Computer Science, The University of Birmingham, B15 2TT, England
EMAIL   A.Sloman@cs.bham.ac.uk  OR A.Sloman@bham.ac.uk
Phone: +44-(0)21-414-3711       Fax:   +44-(0)21-414-4281
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop


I spotted only two mistakes in Steve's rendition of the Pepper quote
syntax.

One is that there is no special treatment of ``('' following ``^''
(or ``^^''); or, indeed, for *any* of the meta-symbols. If you want to
hat a big expression, use ``%''s instead.

The other is that ``~'' is a meta-symbol which requires the next item
to be a numeric literal and arranges for its negaive to be PUSHQ'ed.
This is because Pepper has no negative numeric literals; ``~'' is its
negate operator. (The expression ``-5'' will likely cause a stack
error when ``-'' goes looking for the left operand.)
--

Regards, Kers.
"If anything anyone licks, they'll find it all ready in sticks."
From: axs@cs.bham.ac.uk (Aaron Sloman)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop
Subject: lvars and standards (was: Re: List and Vector Syntax)
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:33:22 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, University of Birmingham, UK

ianr@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Ian Rogers) writes:

> Date: 7 Jan 93 15:48:50 GMT
> Organization: University of Sussex at Brighton
>
> lvars as default is a Good Thing, the One True Way, there Can Be No
> Argument!!!!! :-)

Just for the record, I said nothing to imply disagreement with this,
and in my draft revised version of the Pop-11 primer, lvars is used
throughout for local variables rather than vars,

(Except that I plan to include a section explaining why it is useful
to have dynamic locals for special cases (e.g. cucharout, interrupt,
pr, pop_file_mode, pop_enable_interrupts etc. etc.) in order to make
it unnecessary to pass hordes of extra parameters via all sorts of
procedures that can call user defined procedures.)

My comment was only to express pessimism about what is *likely* to
happen, not disagreement about what *should* be the case.

But I'll be happy to be proved wrong in 10 years time.

Aaron
-- 
Aaron Sloman, School of Computer Science,
The University of Birmingham, B15 2TT, England
EMAIL   A.Sloman@cs.bham.ac.uk  OR A.Sloman@bham.ac.uk
Phone: +44-(0)21-414-3711       Fax:   +44-(0)21-414-4281
From: kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 08:41:31 GMT
Subject: Re: lvars and standards (was: Re: List and Vector Syntax)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop

In article ... ianr@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Ian Rogers) writes:

   kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin) writes:
   >
   > I can't speak for GLOW, but that *isn't* why I designed and (proto) 
   > implemented Pepper.

   But, as far as I know, you're a Pop fan Chris. So if there'd been a subset
   would you have used that instead of inventing Pepper?

If Pop had been available for the Arc (I'm afraid the other platforms 
mentioned hold little interest for me :-), that would have been a 
serious disincentive for building Pepper, that's true. But I designed
Pepper for several reasons, including doing a rational reconstruction 
of Pop's syntax (as witness the recent discussions about the list and
vector syntax) and amusing myself with ideas about efficient compilation
on RISC-style architectures. Although the first would be possible inside
Pop's framework, the second was not.

Note also that abortive Pepper development started on a BBC Model B....
--

Regards,    | ``The French teacher does not threaten. She says, | Teen
Kers.       | "s'il vous plait"''.                              | Agent
From: jadwa@isg.reading.ac.uk (James Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop
Subject: Pop9x - The BSI Standard
Summary: Do you want to join the BSI Pannel?
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:04:23 GMT
Organization: University of Reading

The British Standards Institute is preparing a British Standard for the Pop
family of languages. This might later be converted into an international (ISO)
standard. A draft for public comment should be available in the near future
(well, this year anyway!). 

If you would like to join the Panel and be responsible for reading the draft
and commenting on it then e-mail me within 14 days of this notice. I will need
the following bibliographical information from you.

Name:
Position:
Institution:
Address: 
Telephone Number:
Fax Number:
Preferred e-mail address:

Hope this helps (to brighten your day :-)

-- 

James Anderson.

    (JANET) James.Anderson@reading.ac.uk
From: kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:23:22 GMT
Subject: Re: lvars and standards (was: Re: List and Vector Syntax)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.pop

In article ... ianr@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Ian Rogers) writes:

   There will be no MSDOS or Mac version of Pop11 without an
   identifiable, sufficient subset of Pop11 commands and syntax. This
   is why Pepper and GLOW have occurred!

I can't speak for GLOW, but that *isn't* why I designed and (proto) implemented
Pepper. 
--

Regards,    | ``The French teacher does not threaten. She says, | Teen
Kers.       | "s'il vous plait"''.                              | Agent
From: Sean.Wilson@f590.n139.z1.fidonet.org (Sean Wilson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: JPI Modula-2
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 11:31:16 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:139/590 - PMI BBS, Green Bay WI

p >   Could someone please give me an address, fax & phone number for the
p >   company that sells JPI Modula2.

Clarion Software (USA)
150 East sample Rd
Pompano Beach
Florida, 33064
USA

Fax: (305) 946-1650

Best Regards
     Sean Wilson
     (TopSpeed Technical Support)

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From: cording@sorokin.anu.edu.au (Dean Cording)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: FTL Modula 2
Date: 6 Jan 93 02:18:56 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.76.12
Summary: Does anyone know its current status?
Keywords: Modula 2

Does anyone know of the current status of FTL Modula 2 by Chenkov(?) 
Computing.  My distributor, JED Microprocessors in Melbourne Australia, 
have not had an update since 1988.  Apparently the author, David Moore,
moved to the US.  Is he still supporting it?  Is there a later version
than 1.20 of the LMM compiler?


Dean Cording
cording@sorokin.anu.edu.au
From: Robert.Barton@p0.f6.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Robert Barton)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: re: C to Modula2 converter?
Date: 10 Jan 93 03:03:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: puddle.36762.2B50C7C3
Organization: FidoNet node 1:105/6.0 - DawgGone Disgusted, Portland OR


  A C to Modula-2 converter is not possible, since Modula-2 does
not support set complement, structured constants, or null
procedure variables.  Oberon corrects the first two design flaws.



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From: 100023.2527@COMPUSERVE.COM (Guenter Dotzel)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: O2: Persistent Objects
Date: 7 Jan 93 08:16:14 GMT
Reply-To: Modula2 List <INFO-M2%UCF1VM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Organization: The Internet

Oberon-2:

The chapter on Persitent Objects in the new book
"Objektorientierte Programmierung in Oberon-2", Springer Verlag, 1992
(OOPiO2) by H.P. Moessenboeck inspired me to write a test program in
Oberon-2 on VAX/VMS (H2O).

When writing to file, the program retrieves the record type name information
at run-time with the procedure Objects.ObjToName and writes the type names
("moduleName.typeName") together with the associated
data of a heterogeneous list of objects to a file.

When reading the list from file, the type names stored in the
file are used to reconstruct the original type with SYSTEM.NEW (p, n),
where the pointer's type tag and size n are set their original values
in Objects.NameToObj.

The advantage is that simply adding new methods to load and store
any extension of the base class is all you need to support new
data structures on the file. There is no need to modify the
write-to or read-from-file procedure.

Does anybody know what Oberon-2 implementations support or provide facilities
for ObjToName and NameToObj for arbitrary (non-anonymous) type names?

The C++ working group plans to make language provisions for run-time type
information and persitent objects too.
In Oberon-2 this is possible now without any language extension.

Guenter

PS.:
 Thanks to my coworker +++hartmut who extended the VAX/VMS Oberon-2 compiler
 to store the type name information, size and tag.
 He also wrote the low-level module Objects for H2O.
 The design took him one day :-) I needed two days to debug his changes in
 the compiler's object-file generation module (VMS linker interface) :-(

 I'll list the source of Test_Objects (uses ISO M2 Std I/O Lib)
 in an upcoming issue of ModulaWare's "The ModulaTor" newsletter.

 H.P. Moessenboeck's book OOPiO2 will also be available in English soon.



Distribution:
  comp.lang.modula2 feed >INTERNET: info-m2@ucf1vm.bitnet
From: Sean.Wilson@f590.n139.z1.fidonet.org (Sean Wilson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: High Precision Timer for
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 11:00:10 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:139/590 - PMI BBS, Green Bay WI

A >   I am looking for a High Precision Timer Module in Modula-2, especially in
A >   TopSpeed. It should be something like TPHRT3 for Turbo-Pascal 5.0 to 5.5.
A >   It should use the 8253-chip on the PC to measure time
A >   accurate to micro!!seconds.

There is an article on high resolution timing in one of the recent DDJ's
thet could be extended to M2.

A >   Or does anyone know how not TopSpeed objects (.OBJ) (or .TPU's) can be linked
A >   to TopSpeed? The TopSpeed Tech-Kit doesn't tell too much about it

TPU's are not linkable, they don't use OMF format.  .OBJ files should be
readilly linkable providing that the guidelines in the TopSpeed Environment
"Developers Guide" are followed.  Actually the main problem is not the
linking so much as the calling conventions (in most cases).  Linking to
MS C .OBJs needs somehing like:

(*# module(implementation=>off, init_code=>off) *)

(*# call(c_conv=>on, reg_param=>()), name(prefix=>c) *)

as a minimum.

Best Regards
     Sean Wilson
     (TopSpeed Technical Support)

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Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: wolfe@sequent.com (David Wolfe)
Subject:  Metrowerks Modula-2 compilers
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: us
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 01:24:03 GMT

I have been trying to send email to Metrowerks to get pricing info using the
address in the FAQ for this group, but it gets bounced. Can someone send me an
updated email address or (better) can someone from Metrowerks send me the
info?

Thanks,
	-DaveW


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Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Topspeed DOS Extender
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:08:30 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

Hi Sean!  It's great to see one of the Modula-2 vendors on-line and answering
questions.

Care to comment about how we can upgrade to 3.10 when it is available?
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
From: Sean.Wilson@f590.n139.z1.fidonet.org (Sean Wilson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: Re: C to Modula2 convert
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 11:45:20 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:139/590 - PMI BBS, Green Bay WI

TC>   There is a C to Pascal written by a small UK based company and there is a
TC>   shareware version (it's quite old). This program seems to work (I don't have a
TC>   useable Pascal compiler!). Output was not a pretty sight -- forgivable under
TC>   the circumstances.
TC>   The company owner/software author has read papers fairly recently which imply
TC>   to me that he is still active. On speaking to him he indicated that he could
TC>   indeed do a C to M2 but wouldn't unless someone commissions the job. (this may
TC>   be because the C to Pascal has not made money)
TC>   I don't have that kind of money to burn.

Knowledge Software's C to Pascal translator was written as an advertisement
I believe.  It is an impressive program that appears to do an arbitrary
number of passes over the input to determine the Pascal code.

I believe that the C to Modula-2 translator would be very similar, however
I also beleive that in many cases it would be impractical.  Many C programs
use the preprocessor to modify the code that will be seen by the compiler
depending on various manifest constants or definitions.  Given the various
possibilities about the way in which the preprocessor can be used I suspect
that there are many programs out there which cannot easily be translated
once off into Modula-2.

Best Regards
     Sean Wilson
     (TopSpeed Technical Support)

___
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From: maurel@dbulm1.uucp
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: Re: Compiler Tools
Date: 11 Jan 93 11:42:05 +0100
Organization: Daimler-Benz, Institut f. Informationstechnik

In article <1993Jan4.180947.27027@gallant.apple.com>, cheryl@gallant.apple.com (Cheryl Lins) writes:
> In article <725269241snx@black.demon.co.uk> tchannon@black.demon.co.uk writes:
>>All was gloom here until I tried the much improved version of Coco/R by Pat
>>Terry. 
> 
try the ToolBox from the university of Karlsruhe.
I used these tools and portate them to VAX/VMS with the ModulaWare-Compiler.
It runs pretty well.

guy maurel
From: Sean.Wilson@f590.n139.z1.fidonet.org (Sean Wilson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: Re: JPI Mod-2 for DOS
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 10:16:06 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:139/590 - PMI BBS, Green Bay WI


BS>   How will 3.10 differ from 3.01?
BS>   --

3.10 is the release following 3.02, it incorporates fixes to all known
bugs in 3.02 plus significant enhancements to the overlay manager and
Windows floating point support (i.e. we no longer try to make Microsofts
Emulator do things that show up it's problems).  In addition source for the
DOS Extender will be shipping and all library source is fully extender
aware.  Full details are available from our forum on CompuServe (GO CLARION)

Best Regards
     Sean Wilson
     (TopSpeed Technical Support)

___
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: Sean.Wilson@f590.n139.z1.fidonet.org (Sean Wilson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: Re: JPI Mod-2 for DOS
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 10:09:04 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:139/590 - PMI BBS, Green Bay WI

A >   I am using TopSpeed M2. My distributor in Vienna, Austria
A >   cannot supply me with it any more.

Try FAXing our sales department (USA) on (305) 946-1650 or phone
(305) 785-4555.  They will put you in touch with a local distributor.

Best Regards
     Sean Wilson
     (TopSpeed Technical Support)

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