HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tcox@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (Tony Cox - (415)926-3105)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,talk.politics.drugs,sci.med
Subject: Re: From _Scientific American_
Date: 26 Jan 93 02:01:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: ssrl01.1993Jan26.100148.1
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu

In article <1993Jan25.235905.20696@NOC.Vitalink.COM>, rbuchanan@vitalink.com (Rick Buchanan) writes:
> 
> Also, if you contradict the FDA _in_writing_, they have been known to shut 
> down your business, steal your property and even threaten the guy who does 
> your printing.  I have the details at home, and I'll cite cases if you like.
> 
> --- Rick Buchanan (rbuchanan@vitalink.com)
> 
>         *** Don't blame me.  I voted Libertarian  ***

Rick. Please dig up those cases. I for one am very interested.

Tony Cox,Stanford,CA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: hrubin@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: German Health Insurance "System" in 1/23 NYT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 02:08:55 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.193611.21776@news.columbia.edu> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:

			...............................

>Interestingly, the NYT points out that the original "sickness funds"
>concept was started by Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismarck about 110
>years ago as part of a policy to blow steam out of a growing Socialist
>movement.

This is not that surprising.  Bismarck was not a believer in individual
freedom, and neither were the Socialists.  Bismarck was perfectly willing
to have controlled access to medicine, and did not care who controlled it,
as long as it did not go against the government.  Bismarck was an adept
Macchiavellian; give in to the opposition where it does not matter.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.medicine:659 alt.politics.homosexuality:10129
From: kfl@access.digex.com (Keith F. Lynch)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: APA and homosexuality,AIDS
Date: 23 Jan 1993 02:34:59 GMT
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

For Stephen Grossberg:

> "Greek thought took cognizance of what contemporary culture has 
> forgotten: to be free in relations to one's pleasures necessitates the 
> avoidance of slavery to one's appetites." [M. Rosenberg]

The same Greeks who were generally bisexual, including the man whom
Ayn Rand described as the greatest person who ever lived?

Once more, I ask you to please desist.  You are giving people a very
false idea of what Ayn Rand stands for.  I cringe when I think of the
hundreds, maybe thousands, of people who would have read her works, but
who now won't, because they falsely believe she's some kind of bigot.

Please distinguish your ideas from hers.

Keith Lynch, kfl@access.digex.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Canadian healthcare system
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:19:28 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.042853.8836@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:
>
>  You don't know what you are talking about.  In Canada, the
>provincial governments set the fee schedule.  If you don't like the
>fee schedule it's too bad, because it is illegal (under the Canada
>Heaalth Act) for a physician to "extra bill" above the government set
>rates.  In the province of Ontario the yearly pay increases have
>averaged 0.5-1.0% per year for the last six years.  In addition, most
>of the provinces have imposed fee caps on doctors.  Doctors who bill
>above $450,000 per year in Ontario are paid only $0.33 on the dollar
>for all billings above 450K.  This has resulted in many specialists
>cutting back their work schedules so that they will not work in excess
>of the cap.  It iow takes much longer to see a specialist.
>

No doctor in Canada is forced to be part of the public insurance
system...they are free to charge their patients what they like if
they so choose...however, if they choose to collect from the public
insurance system where the fees have been collectively bargained
by their doctor's association, then they have to accept the fee
schedule.

The "fee caps" as you call them were collectively bargained by
Ontario doctors...not imposed by the government unilaterally.

There is an ongoing dispute in BC right now, I think, because
the government there is attempting to impose a fee cap unilaterally,
and the doctors seem to be somewhat successfully withdrawing from
the public insurance system with public support in protest...I
haven't been following the situation that closely, but the
government is going to find a mass revolt on its hands if it
doesn't sit down and bargain with the doctor's association in
good faith.  What is strange in the case of BC, is that the government
is allegedly a social democratic government that supposedly 
believes in unions and collective bargaining.

Gerald

Xref: sparky talk.politics.medicine:761 talk.politics.misc:70352
From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,alt.peeves
Subject: Re: Statement of President Clinton on Health Care Reform Task Force
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:12:50 GMT
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Followup-To: talk.politics.medicine
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1993Jan26.232828.17275@news.columbia.edu>, Gary L Dare writes:
>One difference ... coke dealers won't pad your tab with the bill for
>an indigent customer who walks off with a vial from the Emergency
>Room.  They'll just shoot the first guy. (-;
>Stealing from your clients is bad business ... 'cos coke dealing is
>a free market activity.

Yawn. 

And you people wonder why you sit on the sidelines of political 
thought like sombody in a rainbow wig at the Super Bowl....

JZ
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: AIDS, homosexuality
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:47:12 GMT

In article <1jc9vpINNhp@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> drayer-rebecca@yale.edu (Rebecca Drayer) writes:
}In article <1993Jan16.080028.11794@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
}>Furthermore, you keep begging the question of whether or not psychiatry is
}>a science.  As yet, it ain't.  It can be.  You're granting the claim that
}>homosexuality is a "mental illness" too much credit.
}
}I don't think any argument should be based on the claim that psychiatry is
}not a science.  The evidence definitely points to the fact that it is. 
}Psychiatrists do not regard the mind as a "black box"; rather, they
}conduct experiments according to the scientific method (i.e. controls,
}blind conditions, etc) to discover facts about a concrete biological
}object -- the brain.

The object studied by psychiatry isn't the brain, but the mind.  You may
well describe neurobiology, but not psychiatry.

}I think you might be confusing psychiatry with psychology.  At this point,
}psychology is considered a social science, not a "true" science, although
}some would dispute this as well.

I used to equate the two, but a cognitive science major friend of mine
corrected me.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: German Health Insurance "System" in 1/23 NYT
Organization: Deep Space Nine (DS9)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:46:23 GMT

deherrin@ucdavis.edu (Dan) writes:
>
>Did the article mention future funding problems? When I was "home" 
>earlier this month, that was getting some media play. The gov't is 
>worried about the future of the system.

It only mentioned that it was a worry, even though Germany spends 60%
of the per-capita portion that the U.S. spends [probably due in part
to a larger population plus geographic advantages over Canada, which
spends 75% -- gld].  One could infer that this is due to a "greying"
of the population (older numbers that "West" Germany had the lowest
birthrate of all western nations -- and the second-lowest if Quebec
were independant) and that the system of unbridled insurance is
unchecked ... not only are there no HMO's (which father of my German
girlfriend, a major research exec with a Euro-American pharmaceutical
firm, turns up his nose against), but second-guessing by insurance
companies (NYT, Sunday 1/24) is unknown.  At the same time, fraud and
malpractice litigation levels are low as in the Canadian and French
cases.

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare
> gld@columbia.EDU 			GO  Winnipeg Jets  GO!!!
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			Selanne + Domi ==> Stanley
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re:
From: <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 17:55:18 EST
Organization: Penn State University

In article <1993Jan12.224007.3096@cnsvax.uwec.edu>, nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David
Nye) says:

>You've got that backwards.  They want to provide the best care for the
>least money.  The HMO competes from other HMOs and fee-for-service

In theory, that's true.  In practice, you would be hard-pressed to
find any evidence at all that HMOs slow the rate of growth of health
care costs.  HMO costs increased 16.5% in 1988, 15.7% in 1989, and
13.5% in 1990.  HMOs do have costs that are about 15% lower than
the typical indemnity plan and about 9% lower than the typical
PPO.  Those figures, however, overstate the HMO savings because
beacuse they do not adjust for the fact that the typical HMO
enrollee is younger and healthier than the indeminity and PPO
participants.  When such adjustments have been made (a series of
articles by Harold Luft) they show HMO savings of 5% or less.

On the other hand, for you HMO critics, there is little evidence
that HMOs provide poorer quality of care.  A large study of Medicare
HMO enrollees found few differences, except that the HMO people kept
better records.  In addition, the HMO tended to rely more heavily on
diet and life-style recommendations to control high-blood pressure.
While the HMO people reported higher satisfaction with this, they showed
less of a drop in their blood pressure.  Finally, a recent study of MI in
HMOs showed no higher mortality, re-hospitalizations, or other adverse
events, despite the shorter length of stay that HMO patients had.

>insurance.  If it can't maintain the reputation of providing the best
>care in its price range, it will quickly go out of business.  There are
>some that try to come in with the lowest bid at the expense of access
>and quality.  Unfortunately this is often a successful strategy.
>Healthy young workers will often pick the cheapest plan, even if it is
>only a few dollars a month less, figuring they probably won't need to
>make use of it much.  This increases costs to the more expensive but
>better quality plan, which gets stuck with the sicker, older workers who
>are willing to pay more because they realize they are likely to need
>more services.



D. Shea
My words and thoughts, not PSUs
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: Robert Bourassa
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: Deep Space Nine (DS9)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 01:20:29 GMT

D. Shea, PSU <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>
>I am quite willing to believe that the U.S. has a faster growth rate 
>in medical technology than some of the systems with national health 
>insurance (though there is little hard evidence on this point).

On the Canadian newsgroups, I'm a regular critic of Canada's overall
low rate of research -- not due to the way that we pay for our health
insurance coverage, but our cultural mental blocks.  A high tech firm
in British Columbia just announced a virtual-reality oriented viewer
to aid in body cavity surgery (in UPI Clarinet).  How the surgeons
using their system are paid seems irrelevant; whether the doctor
chooses to buy it, having a gross income equal to an American doc,
is up to the doctor as a private practicioner.

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare
> gld@columbia.EDU 			GO  Winnipeg Jets  GO!!!
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			Selanne + Domi ==> Stanley
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: AIDS, homosexuality
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:28:36 GMT

In article <1j9n7rINNqgb@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> drayer-rebecca@yale.edu (Rebecca Drayer) writes:
}In article <1993Jan16.075714.11630@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
}>}>}Would you volunteer to receive one injection of HIV+ blood?
}>}
}>}>Duesberg will, on the condition that Gallo, Fauci, et al. drop the HIV-AIDS
}>}>hypothesis if he doesn't get AIDS afterwards.
}>}
}>
}>it sounds like posturing to
}>}me, in fact, id be really surprized if he wasnt bluffing, and would never
}>}do such a thing. 
}>
}>Nope.  As far as I can tell, he's absolutely serious.  Gallo et al. are
}>cowards for not taking him up on his condition.
}
}I'm not sure I'd use the word "cowards" to describe Gallo et al. for not
}taking Duesberg up on his condition.  I'm not sure it would be ethically
}correct for them to do so, knowing that THEY believe that the HIV virus
}causes AIDS.  I mean, can you imagine what they would feel if they did
}take Duesberg up and he proceeded to get AIDS?  They'd be vindicated, but
}they would have killed a man.  I know that I, for one, would never be able
}to do anything like that.

He would have killed himself, not Gallo, Fauci, et al.  They ought to have
the courage of their convictions.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Ugh!  More sensitivity, please?
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:57:30 GMT
Organization: Philosophy Dept., Wesleyan University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20Lines: 41

Ugh!  I didn't know that there were intelligent, well-meaning doctors who still
said things like this in their offices:

Earlier this week, I was talking to my own doc (of 4 years, who I actually
think quite highly of in general).  I was concerned about a drug I take which
has a WELL KNOWN side effect of weight gain, and since I've been experiencing
that particular side effect to a distressing degree, I wanted to talk about
options.  Well, she gave me the speech about counting calories & increasing
exercise, & I said I've already been trying to do that, but it is not seeming
to alleviate this drug-induced side effect very well, which is why I brought it
up with her in the first place.  Well, BAM!  Out of nowhere she hits me between
the eyes with this line about how I just must not really be eating little
enough, because <OFFENSIVE PART COMING> after all, there weren't any fat people
in Buchenwald.  (Buchenwald was one of the notorious Nazi concentration camps
in Germany, where many Jews were killed, often by starvation.)  The point
was supposed to be that if I'd eat little enough, I wouldn't gain weight, no
matter what drug(s) I was taking.

Now, this particular way of putting it was particularly offensive to me because
I am Jewish, and my own father was a refugee from Hitler during the war, and I
may well have family members who died in that very camp.  How my doctor could
possibly be so insensitive as to bring this up in this way, in this context, is
beyond me.  I was so taken aback that I couldn't even say anything in response;
my mouth was literally hanging open & I was unable to collect my thoughts to
respond.

I'm absolutely sure it was unintentional on her part.  On the other hand, I
think it is really quite inappropriate ANYWHERE, under ANY circumstances, but
especially for doctors in their dealings with patients, to compare the
brutal starvation of Jews by Nazis during the Holocaust with any sort of
weight-control regimen in which one might voluntarily engage.

I can't believe that educated intelligent health care professionals are still
so insensitive about making remarks such as this.

I am not sure why I am posting this here;  I think it is just to try to get a
few folks who might not already have thought about this, to do so.

------------------------
Ruth Ginzberg <rginzberg@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Philosophy Department;Wesleyan University;USA
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: Robert Bourassa
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:00:07 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <1993Jan24.222521.29146@news.columbia.edu> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
|"Ici Canada This Week" on PBS, a show of CTV (largest private English
|network in Canada) newsclips covered the story last week; apparently,
|Boo-Boo has a very rare and odd form of skin cancer whose experimental
|treatment by an international research team at NCI involving thoracic
|surgery techniques not common to the usual cancer specialists (the
|cancer is on his chest wall and "roots" downward into his torso) plus
|an experimental drug which sounds a little like "interferon", i.e.,
|the federalist hope of Quebec is also a guinea pig for Planet Earth.
|Thus, Bourassa's case turns out not to be that of a wealthy person
|crossing the US-Canada border to avoid the mythical medical queues.

Of course it should be noted that this expensive experimental procedure
was being developed in the US and not Canada.

-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:10:59 EST
From: <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re:

In article <1993Jan24.185331.3263@cnsvax.uwec.edu>, nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David
Nye) says:
>
>[reply to <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu>,]
>
>>>You've got that backwards.  They want to provide the best care for the
>>>least money.  The HMO competes from other HMOs and fee-for-service
>
>>In theory, that's true.  In practice, you would be hard-pressed to
>>find any evidence at all that HMOs slow the rate of growth of health
>>care costs.  HMO costs increased 16.5% in 1988, 15.7% in 1989, and
>
>That may be true for now, but at least around here the HMOs provide good
>care with complete coverage and out of plan referrals when medically
>indicated, while the deductibles and other limitations on fee-for-
>service health insurance plans climb.  The two types remain in the same
>price range.  I also think HMOs will be better able to deal with the
>expected further drops in reimbursement than fee-for-service plans.

Maybe you are right, but most of the companies I know have concluded
that HMOs are not helping them slow the growth of their health care
costs, and are looking for other options.  By the way, the out-of-plan
referrals you mention, typically raise the average cost of an HMO plan
by 5 to 10 percent, removing much of the cost-savings.

These words and thoughts are my own. * I am not bound to swear
**      **      **       **          * allegiance to the word of any
  **  **  **  **  **  **             * master. Where the storm carries
    **      **      **               * me, I put into port and make
D. Shea, PSU                         * myself at home.
From: drayer-rebecca@yale.edu (Rebecca Drayer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: AIDS, homosexuality
Date: 22 Jan 1993 15:10:42 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <1993Jan22.112836.16611@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>In article <1j9n7rINNqgb@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> drayer-rebecca@yale.edu (Rebecca Drayer) writes:
>}In article <1993Jan16.075714.11630@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>}>}>}Would you volunteer to receive one injection of HIV+ blood?
>}>}
>}>}>Duesberg will, on the condition that Gallo, Fauci, et al. drop the HIV-AIDS
>}>}>hypothesis if he doesn't get AIDS afterwards.
>}>}
>}>
>}>it sounds like posturing to
>}>}me, in fact, id be really surprized if he wasnt bluffing, and would never
>}>}do such a thing. 
>}>
>}>Nope.  As far as I can tell, he's absolutely serious.  Gallo et al. are
>}>cowards for not taking him up on his condition.
>}
>}I'm not sure I'd use the word "cowards" to describe Gallo et al. for not
>}taking Duesberg up on his condition.  I'm not sure it would be ethically
>}correct for them to do so, knowing that THEY believe that the HIV virus
>}causes AIDS.  I mean, can you imagine what they would feel if they did
>}take Duesberg up and he proceeded to get AIDS?  They'd be vindicated, but
>}they would have killed a man.  I know that I, for one, would never be able
>}to do anything like that.
>
>He would have killed himself, not Gallo, Fauci, et al.  They ought to have
>the courage of their convictions.

They do.  Their convictions are that the HIV virus causes AIDS. 
Therefore, they aren't willing to take up this little challenge, even if
it might mean that they would get an annoying critic off their backs if
they were right.


-- 
Rebecca A. Drayer, EMT-A            |    drayer@minerva.cis.yale.edu
Neurobiology major                  |    Computing Assistant
                                    |    Silliman College, Yale University
Xref: sparky talk.politics.medicine:657 talk.politics.drugs:8215
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: AIDS, homosexuality
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:37:33 GMT

In article <C1368s.B8v@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> dmcanzi@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi) writes:
}In article <1993Jan15.104018.17647@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
}>In article <1993Jan14.154056.10452@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
}>}Would you volunteer to receive one injection of HIV+ blood?
}>
}>Duesberg will, on the condition that Gallo, Fauci, et al. drop the HIV-AIDS
}>hypothesis if he doesn't get AIDS afterwards.
}
}The terms of Duesberg's bet need clarification.  Will he allow multiple
}injections to be administered, if necessary, until PCR-based testing
}shows that an HIV infection has been established?  Who are included in
}the "et al" above?  Will Duesberg accept any one of the people he's
}talking about taking him up on his bet, or is the condition of his bet
}that they must all promise to drop the HIV theory en masse if he
}doesn't develop AIDS?

Dunno, but he should be willing to submit to at least the first condition,
if not the second.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire