HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcramm@dct.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Upgrade path from A3000 -> A4000? Ask at WOC!
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:01:33 +0100
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology

In article <1992Sep14.113503.20471@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) writes:
> In article <1992Sep14.105200.330@dct.ac.uk> mcramm@dct.ac.uk writes:
>>In article <1992Sep14.024817.9546@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) writes:
>>> Can't everybody stop moaning?  We knew the new machines were coming and
>>> that there was going to be a *very* good chance they wouldn't work
>>> without a new motherboard, you had your chance to try and sell an 
>>> old machine.
> 
>>I don't really understnad this statement - do you mean that the old machines
>>need a new motherboard or that the new machines are obsolete already?
> 
> I'm saying that we knew new machines were coming, and we knew there was
> a good chance they weren't going to work in the A3000.   This was said
> several times on the net by myself.  You could have sold an A3000 before 
> Sept. 10 and if you find somebody who doesn't know about the A4000, you
> might still get a good price for your A3000.
> 
>>The point most people on the upgrade side of teh great AGA debate seem to be
>>making is that the 68030 machines have enough bandwidth (in theory) for the
>>A4000 graphics subsystem to be dropped in as a modular upgrade somehow. 
> 
> The custom chips system handles a lot of things.  Paula handles
> most of the connections to the outside world.  You'd virtually have to
> have a daughterboard with everything except the processor on it.  It'd
> be a mess and you may as well have an entire new motherboard.  Maybe
> a 3rd party will offer a new motherboard.

You've missed the second half of what I was saying. I *know* that Paula is
important for disk drives &c. my suggestion was that the GRAPHICS subsystem
could be implemented as a drop in, with separate RAM and monitor port &c. 
I still haven't heard a good reason why this couldn't be done. (I'm not saying
that it will be, - I'd just like to know why it CAN'T be done, even by 3rd
party)
 
> I would rather see C= spend what resources they do have developing new
> machines than trying to extend the lives of the old ones through nasty
> kludges.

Why does it need to be a *nasty* kludge - IMHO it could be a useful way of
extending the range, by giving Amiga the sort of modularity found in
PC clones, but remaining faithful the the standard set by C=. Yes, I agree that 
if C='s resources are that limited they should concentrate on new machines, but
I don't believe it's that difficult to produce an AGA card for the exisitng
32-bit machines in the range. 
(flame retardant underwear now in place)

> 
> C= have suggested they will offer some kind of power-up deal, so you'll
> just have to wait and see.
> 
>> Angus M. Marshall, 
> 
> -- 
> Colin Adams       Honours Student - James Cook University of North Queensland
-- 
 Angus M. Marshall, Ph.D. Student - Dundee Institute of Technology
(if we must give titles)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene)
Subject: Re: aga chipset for amiga
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 03:39:23 GMT

>>How many games out there use HAM mode?  I know of Pioneer Plague and
>>Links.  Are there that many more?
>
>I'm not much of a game player (due to my horrible skills more than anything
>else :-) and can't answer your question.  But I would like to know why do 
>you care if there are any games that use HAM mode?  You have stated that
>you have a nice PC and that you prefer the games on it to those that you
>have seen on the Amiga, so why should games on the Amiga concern you?  The

	Can't a person ask just for general information?  Anyways, the 
  Amiga concerns me because I was hoping for an affordable system from CBM.
  What happened to all the rumors of the mid-range machines?  Are they 
  vaperware?  The A4000 is nice, but a low priced mid-range AGA system would
  have appealed to a much larger audience.  IMHO

							G.Greene


>Skip Sauls
>skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: nwickham@nyx.cs.du.edu (Neal Wickham)
Subject: Re: Utilities Unlimited vs NewTek's cottage industry paradigm
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 19:07:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.163545.4030@en.ecn.purdue.edu> wwarner@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Art Warner) writes:

>>How is that some of the brightest people you know can also be
>>some of most ridiculous?  I am afraid that I am going to be
>
>>----SHIT DELETED---------
>
>>I don't know, but it worries me.
>>

>Why not leave your illogical opinions/worries in advocacy.
>Get real.


Who appointed you King of the Known Universe? ...Marc Barret?



                                    NCW
From: dtiberio@libws1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM lamers at their worst - uiuc siggraph meeting
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:42:27 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook

In article <1992Sep10.204519.23217@cco.caltech.edu> andrey@cco.caltech.edu (Andre T. Yew) writes:
>matt@gbrmpa.gov.au (Matt) writes:
>
>>Yep, that's right, Amiga is the only computer that can lay graphics
>>onto video tape.

>	BTW, the Amiga isn't the only computer that can do
>that.  SGI's Reality Engine boards can output encoded
>NTSC or PAL (even HDTV!).

	Oh thank for bringing this up. I was wondering how in the
past 50 years or so television broadcasters have been putting
graphics on their broadcasts, seeing as how the Amiga was just 
released in 1985. OF COURSE AMIGA not ONLY computer that make
GRAPHICS on VIDEO! You deep DODO! Go CHANGE YOU DIAPERS!!


-- 
      //   David Tiberio  SUNY Stony Brook 516-473-5156 AMIGA  DDD-MEN   
     //  bounce-resistant:    dtiberio%libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu@sunysb.edu
   \X/	 "Who will PROTECT TRUTH when I no LONGER HERE?!!"  - Jeff Young

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 	P     E     R R   O   O   T        I   N  NN         9 2
 	P     EEEEE R  R   OOO    T      IIIII N   N     9999  22222
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: copes@cs.curtin.edu.au (Simon Cope)
Subject: Re: PC Imagine Was: IBM lamers at their worst - uiuc siggraph meeting
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 04:10:16 GMT

alanb@sdl.mdcbbs.com (Alan Braggins) writes: >> I heard somewhere that Impulse is going to release a PC version of Imagine.
>> Sort of makes your skin crawl, but they could sell heaps more copies, and a 
>> bunch of 486/50's would be good for rendering, even if you can't record direct
>> off one.  So you would still need an amiga, or an  expensive standards
>> convertor card for one.  Anyone care to substantiate this?

>They are, at least according to their last newsletter.
>Suggest you keep your Amiga as a really neat computer, and get a 486 as
>a dumb but powerful (and cheap) rendering engine. Promises they won't ever 
>stop supporting the Amiga.

>Estimated shipping date October 1st, offer of $100 dollars for existing 
>Imagine owners who want to pre-order now. $495 otherwise.

CONSIDERABLY more expensive than 2.0 for the amiga, isn't it.  Imagine 2.0
is < A$300 here.  Wonder how many copies they will sell... ;-)


--
copes@cs.curtin.edu.au
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: danaf@lib102.its.rpi.edu (Frank R. Dana Jr.)
Subject: Re: Questions for people attending WOC
Reply-To: danaf@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:24:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.053029.9480@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) writes:
|> In article <+l0yv+q@rpi.edu> danaf@rpi.edu writes:
|> >So, if the A4000 isn't FINISHED yet, why didn't Commodore wait 9 months, get it
|> >__DONE__, and release it at the WOC New York next summer? 
|> >
|> >**SH_T**
|> 
|> You've got to be kiding.  There would have hardly have been an Amiga owner
|> (> A500/600) left in 9 months!  C= couldn't afford any more criticism
|> or any more damaging articles published.  

Does anyone else here really believe that? I don't. And I CERTAINLY would have
waited 9 months for a real machine, complete with all of the things Commodore is
promising at WOC/SF. So why couldn't they make the same promises at WOC, show
off a few of the new resolutions and ideas, and say "just wait til New York!".
They didn't have to release the ACTUAL hardware, which (if all their promises
are to be believed, and we seem to be believing them all to readily...) is just
an intermediate step in the transition to new, high-end Amigas. I don't want a
halfway computer. I don't want promises of "future" wonders. I don't want an
A4000.

We waited 3 years for the Toaster. 9 months would be a breeze.

|> >=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======     
|> 
|> Colin Adams       Honours Student - James Cook University of North Queensland

-- 
/////////////////////////[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
(718)             (212)                        (516)             (518)
=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======     
--------My opinions rarely reflect those of any sane person,----------
	   living, dead, or undead... that's gonna CHANGE.
From: ralph@bugend.edvina.se (Staffan Vilcans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Music on computers Re: Unreal demo!
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 12:03:32 GMT
Organization: Bugend BBS

das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:

> >Why call it "Euro-synth"? Why do people say "Euro-demos"?
> >Is it perhaps because americans aren't creative (or competent) enough 
> >to make demos and music?
> 
> No, because the Amiga is so much more common in Europe than in the US.  Or
> at least Europe is where they started coming from?

It makes you think doesn't it? Over here it's only called "demos" bet 
in the US it's called "Euro-demos".
This suggest that there never will be a think like a US-demo...

> Really, some of this music (and that I have heard in other PC games)
> is so good I might buy it - just to listen to w/o headphones on!  Some
> of it (well, MOST actually) is a Spacemusic/New Age synthesizer type.  I
> kinda like it!  Then, some music 'fits' the games.  I hear that the new Conan
> game for PCs has _great_ 'Conan-esque' music, and as a musician of 
> Medieval music, I can appreaciate the first bars of music intro to PC Eye of 
>  Beholder.
> 
> Yeah, I really like the music in Unreal.  I oughta figure out how to record i
> :)

Both Jochen Hippel and Chris H~lsbeck have had remixed versions of 
their computer music released on CD. Jochen Hippels CD is called "Give 
it a try" and Chris' is called "Shades" and "Addipya" (or something).

Note: Jochen Hippel (aka Maniac of Noise) made the music to "Chambers 
of Shao-Lin" and many others. Chris H~lsbeck made a lot of music on the 
C64, like the music in the game "Shades".

---
Only beer makes it possible in a mental hangover...
From: ahansfor@wpi.wpi.edu (Andrew L. Hansford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: POLL the .advocacy machine
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:33:46
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu


name:
17  Amiga 4000          right
1        3000+

CPU location:
14   daughter           right
5    mother

CPU:
     020
2    030                probably correct
5    040
10    choice     4 040 at show

Floppy:
12   HD                 right
5    880
1    choice

HD interface:           right
12    IDE
5     SCSI
1     both
1     choice

Sound:
13    Same   1 upgradable later      right
6     new

DSP:
14     no                            right
4     yes

OS:
3    2.1
11    3.0                              right
4    2.1 and 3.0 beta  (1 said 2.2 in alpha)

Price:
$3000
$3400
$3500
$3000
too many $$$$
$4000
$4499
$3500
$5000
$4000
&3000
$4000
$3000     although they were describing differnt computers the average

          was 3658  WOW


other: package with 386BB    Where was this?????????????????
 nice slim case,             compared to the 2000
many options 
16megs on motherboard        of FAST


None of these appeared

A3400 030/motherboard 880k IDE same sound no DSP 2.1 $3000
A2200 EC030/motehrboard 880k IDE same sound no DSP 2.1 $2000
A2200 030/motherboard HD IDE same sound no DSP 3.0 $1500
A800  020/motherboard HD IDE same sound no DSP 3.0 $800
A8000 with 88110 Dolby HX Pro, Surround


Thanks everyone.  Please try to enjoy.

Andrew






Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dtiberio@libws2.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio)
Subject: Re: AGA Compatable A3000 - Why Not?  Isn't it possible.
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 06:47:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.041010.24865@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:

>fairly easy to design.  If Commodore does not develop such a board, it will
>probably be because the R&D budgets are too tight to develop such a product,
>and the management refuses to raise the R&D budgets.  At any rate, as I've

	It is probably more to do with sales of A4000's instead of 
upgrade boards.

>already stated, the A4000 is really just an A3000 with the AGA chipset 
>hcked in, anyway.  If you do not believe me, just check for yourself: with

	Oh, shut up already. Just because they are the same or similar
does not make it a hack. Would you consider a new revision number a hack
too? A hack is when something doesn't work, and you make a mess trying to get
it to work. It is too early to say that the A4000 is a 'hck', in your own
words.

>| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu



-- 
      //   David Tiberio  SUNY Stony Brook 516-473-5156 AMIGA  DDD-MEN   
     //  bounce-resistant:    dtiberio%libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu@sunysb.edu
   \X/	 "Who will PROTECT TRUTH when I no LONGER HERE?!!"  - Jeff Young

 	PPPP  EEEEE RRRR   OOO  TTTTT    IIIII N   N      999  2222
	P   P E     R   R O   O   T        I   NN  N     9   9     2
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: POLL : NEW MACHINE according to .advocacy
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:31:50 GMT

In article <AHANSFOR.92Sep4104315@wpi.wpi.edu> ahansfor@wpi.wpi.edu (Andrew L. Hansford) writes:
>
>Rumors are also rather geographical.  The Europeans are expecting a
>much more capable machine than the North Americans.  The Australians
>are in between but skeptical.

This doesn't suprise me - it seems that things are so bad for the Amiga in the
US that a lot of Americans here have trouble believing that Commodore can ever
do anything right.  Australia is "between" the US and Europe in more ways than
just expectations of new ideas, are we are a skeptical bunch.

>Funny.  3.0 is supposed to support the AA graphics modes.  How can the
>software be ready before the hardware?

Softare can be developed on prototypes, and generally is.  On the other hand,
just because someone has seen a prototype it doesn't mean that that's how far
Commodore are from having a finished product.


-- 

David Meiklejohn                  | Internet : davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au
Computer Systems Officer, QDPI    | Fax      : +61 70 92 3593
Mareeba, Australia                | Voice    : +61 70 92 1555
From: 2575brooksr@vms.csd.mu.edu (Ryan K. Brooks)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: FLASH a4000 price
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:24:20 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services
Reply-To: 2575brooksr@vms.csd.mu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: vmsd.csd.mu.edu

Big News:
	Safe Harbor, a rather large local and mail-order company is reporting
a price of $2859 on the a4000.  The owner has been very very _very_ reliable
in the past and has never spread false information before.  Thats about it.
Again, I take this price seriously.  No indication of what it includes
or anything.      

Ryan Brooks
2575brooksr@vms.csd.mu.edu

PS: check out the Safe Harbor BBS and see for yourself!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: Amiga RAM
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:22:17 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.173325.18415@usl.edu> das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
>Hi there.

Hello again.

>I have heard many times that the Amiga has both 'chip' ram and 'fast' ram,
>and I get the impression that the FAST RAM is much better than the chip
>ram, but somehow every Amiga HAS to have SOME CHIP RAM.  For reason I don't
>know - that is why I am asking.

The Chip RAM in every Amiga is accessible by both the custom chips and the
CPU.  The Fast RAM is only accessible by the CPU.  The custom chips handle
the audio and video capabilities, therefore Chip RAM is used primarily for
audio and video data.  In some respects the Chip RAM is similar to the VRAM
on a VGA/SVGA card (maybe like the SoundBlaster also, but I really don't
know if it has any RAM or not).  If a system has Fast RAM, most of the
program code is loaded there.

>On my PC, for example, I jsut have SIMM banks you snap SIMMs into.  The
>video card has its own memory. 

Exactly.  The memory in the SIMM banks is akin to the Fast RAM in an Amiga.
The video cards memory is like a less-flexible version of the Chip RAM.  To
clarify the last statement, the Amiga's Chip RAM can also be used as program
memory, making it possible to use all of the RAM available in an Amiga.  It
would be like storing program code in the VGA/SVGA's VRAM.

The neat thing about Chip RAM and Fast RAM is that the CPU can be doing its
work in Fast RAM at the same time the custom chips are using the Chip RAM.
This is one of the reasons that an Amiga with a 7MHz 68000 can run demos
which are comparable to a 386/33 or better PC with an SVGA card and a 
SoundBlaster.  Also, the Chip RAM is accessible directly by the CPU, not
through a slow bus like ISA.  The LocalBus video cards for the PC use the
same basic idea that the Amiga has used since 1985.

BTW, one of the reasons that some of the older software won't run on new
machines is not due to the OS version as much as it is due to the idiots
who wrote the software for machines with Chip RAM only.

>Thanks-

You`re welcome,

>Dan Stephenson                                           das9674@usl.edu
>" BERLIN WALL FALLS.  3 BORDER GUARDS LOSE JOBS.  CLINTON BLAMES BUSH! "
>        -George Bush, '92 Republican nomination acceptance speech

Skip Sauls
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: 22black@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Martin E. Black)
Subject: No deinterlace chip in the a4000
Organization: Western Michigan Univ. Comp. Sci. Dept.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:17:06 GMT

If it is true of what I hear that there won't be a deinterlacer for the a4000. 
Then this is pure bunk.  I can't believe such a computer wouldn't have it. 
I meen I have a computer that can go up to 50khz which is double of the 
800x300 specs, so I would like to see a deinterlace 800x600.  
Does this meen I have to go buy a deinterlacer.  And no, I don't think the 
productivity modes are acceptable, especially if you have software that will 
write for only hires and interlace hires.  

Lets see here that meens I have to by a dsp card, a deinterlace card, what is 
next.  Oh almost forgot I would also have to buy a scsi card.  

marty


Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: copes@cs.curtin.edu.au (Simon Cope)
Subject: Re: A4000 at WOC
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 03:45:24 GMT

keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

>>>   But along comes the AA chipset, and we finally get to see how an Amiga 
>>>performs with 8 bitplanes at 640x480, and we see that it **CRAWLS**.  In fact,

>I was the one that said it crawls, and Marc was responding to what I wrote.
>The workbench is very slow in 256 color mode.  Also, it seems to shimmer.
>It is still useable, if you have patience.
>>>we find that the Workbench is **UNUSABLE** in 256-color mode because it is
>>>so slow, even though the Mac and IBM systems -- which have been available for
>>>much longer -- are pokish but still very usable with 256 colors.
>Well, it didn't quite take 3 hours to redraw a window, but let's just say that
>it wasn't snappy, in the least.  Not to mention if you had assigned pictures
>as backdrops...

I don't know about you lot, but I personally only use a 4 colour WB on my A3000
16 colour slows it down SLIGHTLY.  I rarely ever have time to sit and look at 
pretty picture backdrops.  Now we all know what PC users do all day.
As for the speed, c= never claimed that the blitter was faster, but have said
the next chipsets will be faster.  I personally use a program called CpuBlit.
It uses the 030 or 040 for blitting.  The old blitter is about the same speed
as a 68000 (flat out), an accelerated amiga wipes it out.  CpuBlit uses the
cpu when there are no tasks ready to run, thus considerably speeding things up.
One great advantage of a multi-tasking system.  They share the workload between
them.  Most of the time the 040 in the A4000 will be waiting, so use it for 
blitting.  This is the only thing I would have liked to have seen added to 3.0.
3.1/4.0 is in alpha test now.  Perhaps it has this?

Everyone I asked why they own a PC it was because

a) cheaper.

This was the only answer I got.  C= is catching up in pricing.

>keith

--
copes@cs.curtin.edu.au
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: Upgrade path from A3000 -> A4000? Ask at WOC!
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 02:16:33 GMT

In article <35111@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
>In article <1992Sep13.173427.20118@nntp.uoregon.edu> ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles) writes:
>>In article <92257.115643JBK4@psuvm.psu.edu> JBK4@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>
>>>Not pin compatible but what about installing it on a ZorroIII Card or through
>>>the CPU slot.  
>
>>   I don't think so. The AGA aren't just plop-in chips, folks. That's why
>>Commodore put them on the motherboard of the A4000. 
>
>AA (AGA, Pandora, whatever) chips could live on the expansion bus with some
>tweaks to the graphics support software.  Such a card would of course have its 
>own Chip RAM, and wouldn't necessarily be accessed by take-over-the-system
>software (eg, going through the OS would be mandatory, of course).  You would
>need Zorro III to get A4000-class CPU access to such Chip RAM.

   That's basically what I and others have been saying, only I was being 
careful about whether or not it would work in a Zorro III slot.  If it did,
then I agree that it would not be as compatible as an A4000 because the
AGA chipset in a Zorro III slot could not reside at the same hardware
addresses as the AGA chipset in the A4000.  But, if you were to require the
user to unplug the ECS Agnus and Denise and transfer the Paula chip to 
the card, could the AGA chipset on the card then reside at the proper 
hardware addresses?

   All of this would be moot if Commodore refuses to give out the chips,
though.  I forgot to consider this point.  Since the AGA chips are now
always SMT, they might not do it.  Which would make easy hacks like the
2M-Agnus-in-A2000/A500 hacks more difficult to design.

>Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Cool Advanced High-End Systems You Can't See Yet)
> "The Crew That Never Rests"  {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh   BIX: hazy
>             "We're not hitchhiking anymore, we're riding" -Ren Hoek

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy