HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ajr@aber.ac.uk (Ade Rixon)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Subject: REPOST: Network planning with GIS
Summary: New email address!!!
Keywords: Telecomms, ARC/INFO, GRASS
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:53:31 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

PLEASE NOTE: I am reposting this as my email address has changed slightly
since my first post. Apologies for the problem.

>As part of a large research project in my department, we are interested in the
>possibilities of automating the planning of telecommunication networks in
>rural areas. We believe that we could use a GIS to achieve this. I am
>interested in *any* information regarding this topic, particularly on any
>existing systems or programs available, and would be grateful to anyone who
>can supply such information. We have ARC/INFO available and will shortly be
>installing GRASS.
>
>Thanks for your time. Sorry if this is a FAQ.
>
>Ade_
>   /
>-- 
>| Ade Rixon - NEW EMAIL ADD./ "...Too many people know too much. *I*	|
>| JANET: ajr@uk.ac.aber     /  know too much. I know too much about	|
>| CS Dept, Aberystwyth UCW, /  *you*."					|
>| Dyfed, Wales.             /  			- The Prisoner		|
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:52:31 EDT
              <GIS-L@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         MGLUCK@SUVM.BITNET

To Jay Sanhu and others who believe toolkits for users are the best we can do:
   I can't agree with you more for experts who will and need to do things
on the bleeding edge.  BUT most users of GIS are not 'experts' in the sense
I think you use the term.  The users need support and my comment earlier on
the location of Open and Quit is not the physical location on the screen but
the lack of conceptual integration with the task at hand.
    The tasks are not as chaotic as you imagine them to be.  The argument on
GIS tasks being so varied is similar to saying all human beings are different,
of course we are, at some level of resolution.  But I claim that at the level
of resolution needed for important work in GIS, there is sufficient overlap
among users to support interfaces that do more than just permit entree to the
toolkit.
     I have some very detailed ideas on how this can be done and would
be more than happy to take funding from a consortium of vendors and explain
it to them.  Alternatively, I'll have to find some venture capitalist who
is willing to invest in a better mousetrap.  Bob Jacobson: does Worldesign
have any deep pocket contacts ;) ?
  .......................................................................
 |  Myke Gluck  (EMAIL:MGLUCK@SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU)                          |
 |  School of Information Studies                                        |
 |  Syracuse University           " ...the end of all our exploring      |
 |  4-206 Center for Sci&Tech      Will be to arrive where we started    |
 |  Syracuse, NY 13244-4100 USA    And know the place for the first time"|
 |  315-443-2911(O)/315-487-6339(H)         -- T. S. Eliot               |
 |.......................................................................|
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
From: charles@essentialessential.org (Charles Bennington)
Subject: Re: RE GIS interfaces
Organization: Essential Information, Washington, DC
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 18:30:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.200409.16997@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Timothy.Allen@dartmouth.edu (Timothy Allen) writes:
|> In article <9208191540.AA00767@adriatic.universe>
|> esri!adriatic!jay@UUNET.UU.NET (Jay Sandhu) writes:
|> 
|> > A common reason given to build a good "interface" is that
|> > more people will start using it. Using it for what? How
|> > many common people want to build maps or manage natural
|> > resources? Would'nt you want them to know something about
|> > map building or managing resources before providing them
|> > tools to do just that! If the answer is NO, then the issue
|> > is no longer that of an interface, rather, what automatic
|> > rules do we build into our system for a user to be able
|> > to build a map or manage natural resources. This is a very
|> > complex task and how many systems do we know of that are
|> > capable of doing just that?
|> > (Yes, I do know that GIS's have many potential uses for
|> > the common people.)
|> 
|> 
|> As I see it, "getting more people to use it" does not necessarily mean
|> getting more common people building maps or managing resources, but to
|> get more of the map builders and resource managers to use GIS
|> technology to help them do their work.
|> 

The idea that the "common people" could not effectively use a GIS seems
to be a bit shortsighted.  Think of the desktop publishing explosion that was
brought about by simple interfaces.  Today, anybody with a PC or a Mac (etc.)
can generate high quality typesetting without having to know very much about
the underlying technology.  Imagine what will happen when that same level of
accessibility is there for GIS?  As much as GIS has been dominated by civil
and environmental applications, the scope of problems (and solutions) that can
be envisioned with geography is limitless and intuitive user interfaces will
allow many new applications for GIS to be realized.

Certainly don't underestimate the applications of GIS and who will be using
it.  Mapmakers and resouce managers could be out a job as quickly as typehouses.
-- 
Charles Bennington
Essential Information		|	Domain: charles@essential.org
(202)387-8030			|	UUCP:	uunet!essential!charles
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
From: dmarble@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Duane F Marble)
Subject: Re: (no subject given)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:33:14 GMT

Myke Gluck brings up an interesting point. How do we define "common
spatial analysis tasks" so that they can be identified and structured
within an interface. The GIS design literature is not very rich and
little of what there is even attempts to approach this topic.

Within the structured GIS design model we have created, the definition
of such "interest clusters" within the spectrum of spatial information
products required as system outputs is one of the more difficult tasks.
Yet, without this, how can we specify and design the high-level GIS
applications (yes, they have a user interface which must be designed
to reflect their functional structure) that will run on top of the
basic GIS?
-- 
Duane F. Marble			       E-mail: dmarble@magnus.acs.osu.edu
Department of Geography                Telephone: (614) 292-2250
The Ohio State University
Columbus, Ohio 43210                   Fax: (614) 292-6213
From: hunter@work.nlm.nih.gov (Larry Hunter)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Subject: Maps needed!
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:46:24 GMT
Organization: National Library of Medicine


Help!  I need to get some Defense Mapping Agency maps soon, and DMA says
October at the earliest!!  The maps are of Nepal and Tibet, map numbers
TPC-XX-H09B, TPC-XX-H09C and TPC-XX-H10A.  If anyone can help me get these
maps, please, PLEASE, call or email!

Best to call me at home: (301) 608-0482 or send email to kali@access.digex.com.
Next best is send information to the phone or email in my .sig.  Thank you very
much for any help you can offer.

			Larry Hunter & Kali Tal

--
Lawrence Hunter, PhD.
National Library of Medicine
Bldg. 38A, MS-54
Bethesda. MD 20894
(301) 496-9300
(301) 496-0673 (fax)
hunter@nlm.nih.gov (internet)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via: uk.ac.york.vaxa; Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:42:05 +0100
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:43:00 GMT
              <GIS-L@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Peter Halls <PJH1@VAXA.YORK.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: GIS Interfaces: we do agree
X-To:         GIS-L <GIS-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

I think that I'll give a view now ...

The User interface side has now been well covered.  I think that, however, the
HARDWARE interface of GIS implementations are also an area in which work is
necessary.  I do not specifically refer to the host processor side - nor to
the Display Screen support - here technology is being kept pretty well under
review.  Having said that, I guess that some of us with vector or parallel
processors would dearly like our systems to take advantage of the facilities,
but ... maybe we need to await some more work from Edinburgh before that side
is well enough understood?

HOWEVER ... most GIS implementors appear to do as little as possible in terms
of the 'hardcopy' input and output support.  What they do provide usually
works but supports only a minimalist set of the device facilities and provision
of enhancement falls very low down the priority list.  I have in mind, for
example, support of PostScript colour devices (especially PostScript Level 2 -
yes, I KNOW thats new but the changes are not so great as to render support
provision to be a 'maybe someday') and raster input.  Some implementors have
staked a great reputaion on raster input - others could certainly try harder!

My message is that the graphics peripherals are also developing and advancing
and the GIS user almost always has to provide reports / papers / information
in a more permanent form than on a display screen and often has the need to
bring in data collected graphically on paper, scanned by a variety of means,
etc.

If the data is not there, or cannot be got out in the form required by the
user it hardly matters how good (or otherwise) the user interface is ... but
don't neglect either at the expense of the other, PLEASE!

Peter Halls
University of York


PJH!@UK.AC.YORK   or t'other way about!
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
From: jrh@mobius.b17a.ingr.com (John R. Herring)
Subject: Re: GIS Interfaces
Organization: Intergraph GIS/Mapping
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:44:42 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.185349.7307@u.washington.edu>, 
cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) writes:
|> I think it's fine for academic people to propose that business people
|> vending GIS systems should read lots of papers and peruse bibliogra-
|> phies, but it just ain't gonna happen, folks.

Well, it is happening.  Not only do we read "lots of papers," we
actually support academic research, some of it in user interface.  You
really should read the acknowledgements included in papers, and keep
score.  Hint: start with the NATO ASI people.

ASI = Advanced Study Institute  

|> .... (stuff deleted) ....
|> At the 1990 NATO meeting on GIS interfaces, Intergraph scientist John
|> Herring was something of a fish out of water and (I believe) dis-
|> mayed at the generally disgruntled crowd.  He was probably taken by
|> surprise.
|> .... (other stuff deleted) ....

Someone already corrected Bob on the topic of the ASI: Cognitive and
Linguistic Aspects of Geographic Space.  I hope the "fish" pun was an
accident.  I was not "out of water," "in too deep," surprised, nor
dismayed.  If anything, I was "flocking with birds of a like feather."

User interface, in general, is a major problem for GIS. 
Unfortunately, we cannot evolve into a solution for several reasons:

   1) We have to supply a consistent set of user interfaces over a
      wide range of applications - if you know one product, using 
      another in the same product line must be easier to learn. 
      Anybody have a Universal GIS metaphor?

   2) We have to migrate the installed base of customers without
      losing them.  "God could create the heaven and earth in 6 days,
      because he didn't have an installed base to worry about."

   3) GIS is not CAD/CAM, it's not word processing, it's not spread
      sheets, and it's not a suite of buiness nor engineering
      software.  The solutions of one class of application seldom work
      well in another.  "Get your desk top metaphor off my drafting 
      table!" 

I could go on but my pizza is getting cold.

						Regards,
							John

PS.  If you disagree, send reprints.

****************************************************************************
    If it ain't broke, you probably aren't looking at it hard enough.
****************************************************************************
  Dr. John R. Herring               *         We are confronted by 
  MS IW17A2, Intergraph Corporation *             insurmountable 
  Huntsville, Alabama 35894-0001    *                 opportunities
  jrh@mobius.b17a.ingr.com          *                              Pogo
****************************************************************************


Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 10:24:41 EDT
              <GIS-L@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         MGLUCK@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      GIS Interfaces

It seems to me that the whole computer industry conceives of interfaces as
merely access to a toolkit.  Users are required to know how to solve a task
as well as the package's implementation of the steps to task completion. And
unfortunately coordination of tasks with features is rarely done and far
from intuitive in spite of the rhetoric to the contrary.

Until users demand coordination of features with at least a reasonable set
of expected, average, normal, tasks (choose your synonym) why should
developers put the time and money into really understanding the utility of
their product?  Exceptions have been spreadsheets and wordprocessers because
the market has demanded improvements, but even these could be improved.
Note in wp programs you can do mailmerge, copy in graphics, preview output,
have templates for various forms, etc.  These were not in original versions of
the more common wp. But they are tasks real people doing work need to do
quickly and frequently.

Work in participatory design, artifact analysis, and user-based analysis can
lead to improvements of interfaces.  I would have hoped ARC-View would have
taken the time to really understand what users need and would do with their
product before using a traditional categorical menu system.  Menus based on
the sequence of activities show much promise but do violate current interface
standards.  Why are OPEN and QUIT next to each other? These are opposites and
are logically at different ends of the menubar, at least to many of the users
I have tested and analyzed.

Have I stimulated anyone?  Have I confused anyone?
 Regards,
         Myke Gluck
  .......................................................................
 |  Myke Gluck  (EMAIL:MGLUCK@SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU)                          |
 |  School of Information Studies                                        |
 |  Syracuse University           " ...the end of all our exploring      |
 |  4-206 Center for Sci&Tech      Will be to arrive where we started    |
 |  Syracuse, NY 13244-4100 USA    And know the place for the first time"|
 |  315-443-2911(O)/315-487-6339(H)         -- T. S. Eliot               |
 |.......................................................................|
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
From: dmarble@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Duane F Marble)
Subject: Re: GIS Interfaces
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:25:58 GMT

With regard to Jacobson's comment, I was not suggesting that those
"vending" GIS read the technical literature but rather those involved
in technical development of the systems. If they will not read (and
keep up with) the relevant literature, then I very much doubt their
capability to assess user comments in any useful fashion.
-- 
Duane F. Marble			       E-mail: dmarble@magnus.acs.osu.edu
Department of Geography                Telephone: (614) 292-2250
The Ohio State University
Columbus, Ohio 43210                   Fax: (614) 292-6213
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
From: esc149u@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au (Dr SJD Cox)
Subject: Re:      GIS USERS
Organization: Monash University, Australia.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:20:26 GMT

From article <9208121849.AA04665@convex.csd.uwm.edu>, by         Eric M Fowler <emfowler@CONVEX.CSD.UWM.EDU>:
> Does anyone have, or know where I could get a list
> of GIS current/potential local and or county
> government users?  The State Council of Governments
> has a compendium of users at the state level but not
> at the local municipality level.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Eric-
> 
> emfowler@convex.csd.uwm.edu
> 
> P.S. let me clarify my request; not POTENTIAL (since
> they all are...) rather PLANNED users.  Thanks.

Is this a question to the WORLD?
I think you are only interested in the USA.  Remember, we 
don't all live there.
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Subject: GPS mailing lists / new-groups
From: brownt1@lincoln.ac.nz
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:03:21 +1200


After a diligent search of news.lists, I've been unable to locate any 
groups or mailing lists dealing with GPS.  This group seems as near as I'm 
going to get, so I'd appreciate it if anyone could send me any information 
on newsgroups or mailing lists dealing with GPS.

Thanks, tb
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Terry Brown, INTERNET brownt1@lincoln.ac.nz, 
                  UUCP     tb@tbnode.equinox.gen.nz,
                  /earth is 98% full ... please delete anyone you can.


Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Acknowledge-To: <A6262DAB@AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT>
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:10:49 MEZ
              <GIS-L@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Wolfgang KAINZ <A6262DAB@AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT>
Subject:      Ordnance Survey

Could someone please provide me with the mail address of David Rhind
at the Ordnance Survey in the UK.
Many thanks in advance
Wolfgang Kainz
Department of Geography, University of Vienna, Austria
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
From: tim@marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au (Tim Telcik)
Subject: Email address for David G. McKenna ???
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 08:26:08 GMT

Does anybody have a current air mail or email address for
David G. McKenna ?

The only address I have for him is 

	Foundation Land Company
	4176 Burns Road
	Palm Beach Gardens, Florida 33410



Any help appreciated.

Tim Telcik
tim@marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au

--
Tim Telcik                          
Department of Geographic Information Systems 
School of Computing 
Curtin University                    
GPO Box U 1987                       
Perth  W.A.  6001                    
Email: tim@marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au    
Work Ph: (09) 351 2985                


Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:52:14 PDT
              <GIS-L@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Jim Tenbrink <esri!harley!jimt@UUNET.UU.NET>
Subject:      Two types of interfaces (was Re: GIS interfaces)
X-To:         uunet!UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu!GIS-L@uunet.UU.NET

I see a new thread branching off here...

Jay Sandhu writes:

> I think it would be more appropriate to ask what application
> area you are talking about before asking what is the
> appropriate GIS interface.

Tim McGrath replies:

> I disagree.  The appropriate GIS interface is one that facilitates
> the building of applications.  Early GIS systems got along fine with
> a script or macro language.  As GIS system capabilities expand even
> sophisticated users start looking for a better way.  Any old Graphical
> User Interface is NOT a better way.  Breaking GIS capabilities into
> modular functions, facilitating the means for users to connect, customize
> and build new functions seems to me a much better way.  An application
> is just a certain order of modular functions.

I reply to Tim:

Then who uses this new application? And how do they use it? You haven't
really responded to Jay's statement. You've just added another application
area (software development) which requires its own specialized user
interfaces.

Your implication here is that if the application construction process can
be rendered painless enough, then we should remove the distinction between
application user and application developer.

I have no information on how possible this is. Your example (Khoros)
sounds like a visual programming language. There are others out there for
other disciplines (Labview (engineering & physics), for the Mac, for example),
which also use the visual programming paradigm and also claims to be
very intuitive (but, as you say, not necessarily easy) to use.

Labview works as a visual language because it merely borrows an already
well-defined set of procedures, data items and terminology from other
disciplines. Does Khoros do this? If so, is it then possible to get
a piece of software as large and complex as the various modules of Arc/Info
to do the same?  I'm skeptical. Arc/Info is pretty abstract.

Jim TenBrink
jtenbrink@esri.com
my thoughts are my own
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:15:22 EDT
              <GIS-L@UBVM.BITNET>
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2
From:         "mnhan040@sivm" <MNHAN040@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Request for GIS Information for Central Europe

From: mnhan040@sivm
  Our folks at the Center for Earth and Planetary Studies (CEPS) here at SI are
 working with a couple of Czechoslovakians on an acid rain-deforestation study
 of their country.  They are using ERDAS software to analyze the landscape with
 Landsat MSS and TM data and digital terrain model data from DMA.  The software
 is running on a Sun Sparc station.  The Czechoslovakian contacts at CEPS are
 Vladimir Henzlik (forester) (here til the end of September) and Martin Simi (a
 physical geographer) (arriving in September).  CEPS staff working with them
 include Tom Watters (chair of CEPS) and Mike Tuttle.  They can all be reached
 at (202) 357-1457 or by writing CEPS, Mail Stop 315, NASM, Smithsonian Inst.,
 Washington, D.C. 20560........................................................
 Dan Cole, GIS Coordinator, MNHAN040@SIVM, (202) 357-1955, Smithsonian Inst.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:53:16 -0700
              <GIS-L@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Jerry Davis <jerry@GISLAB.SFSU.EDU>
Subject:      X vs. Tek and interfaces
X-To:         gis-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

Though this is probably a bit more specific than the current interface
discussion, it is an important consideration for GUI use:

Will terminals remain viable for future GIS work?

There has been a significant move in recent years toward networked UNIX
workstations with X-based window systems as the primary GIS working
environment.  Most users, including myself, welcome this development as it has
happened concurrently with vastly improved computing capability in RISC boxes
and enhanced internetworking tools.

However the cost of upgrading hardware, though dropping, remains an obstacle
in the current fiscal climate, thus many of us will remain stuck with terminal
technology for the near future.

As illustration, I'll describe our campus's situation, one that is certainly
not unique.  Our primary access to GIS technology is a central UNIX machine,
running Arc/Info, with terminals connected via Ethernet and conventional
serial links.  The console is nice to work at, but this single seat is often
occupied.  And providing X window access via emulated X terminals does not
appear to be viable, if John Alexander's analysis ("X vs. Tek...." in Vol. 1,
pp. 557-565 of the 1991 Proceedings of the 11th ESRI User Conference) is
accurate.  Thus we've stuck with Tek emulation.

Yes, you can do menus with Tek emulation, but I'm not terribly excited with
the results.  Though my students complain, they must learn the commands.  Only
through something like X can a true GUI be supported.  But given the choice of
a slow GUI or a fast command line, I'll certainly take the latter.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------
| Jerry Davis  	       	       	       	       	       	       	|
| San Francisco State University, Geography / GIS Center        |
| Internet:  jerry@gislab.sfsu.edu      Phone:  (415) 338-2983	|
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.gis