From: harumi@leland.Stanford.EDU (harumi ito)
Subject: Re: SEXISM IN JAPANESE WORKPLACE!!!!
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 01:22:01 GMT

For some reason, I feel like fish taking bait......

In article <Bzq7wG.6D@ncifcrf.gov> masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec22.050751.8476@leland.Stanford.EDU> harumi@leland.Stanford.EDU (harumi ito) writes:
>
>>Being a wife and a mother involve heavier responsiblities
>>and deeper committment in Japan than it does in the U.S.  
>
>   I don't mean to be nit-picky, but "responsibility" and "commitment" are 
>rather associated with an inner feeling. We may not be able to conclude 
>easily that American wives and mothers are less responsible and less 
>committed than the Japanese counterpart.

I meant time commitment and responsibility to fulfill household duties. 
I just did not want to use the word "obligation." I thought it is too
impersonal a word to describe family matters.  I did not mean to offend
any American wives and mothers.  

I have this stereotyped idea that many, if not most, Japanese husbands
expect to wake up in the morning smelling misoshiru from the kitchen
and to have nice and hot dinner prepared when they go back home from
work.  I admit that it is a streotype.  Sorry if I am wrong.  But, you
get my idea.  If I went to an "omiai" and told the other party that (1)
I will be in school next couple of years, (2) I have no idea where in 
the world I will be working after getting my degree ( my fingers are 
crossed ), and (3) I usually go back home sometime between 8 pm and 3 am, 
what would the chance that this "endan" would go forward.  If I were male, 
things might be different. So, please just don't give me "oh, situations 
are changing in modern Japan" kind of crap.  
  
>>Maybe, many women choose more flexible career paths because
>>of these family obligations, etc.  But, it does not 
>>necessarily means that "they don't want to be equal with men
>>at the workplace."
>
>   No, not at all. However, we should also consider the possibility that
>there are women who are satisfied with the "flexible career paths" and
>who are proudly responsible for the family obligations.

I do pay respect to women who proudly take the "flexible career paths" 
for family reasons.  I have no trouble with that as long as the society
has given them full chance to develop their potentials and they have 
considred their options carefully. But, has the society given them fair
chance to develop their potentials?  I have met many obasantachi with
great vitalities.  When my mother talks about them, she often says "she
could have made big in business if she were a man."  When these 
obasantachi were young, maybe they did not have much of options. It is
such a shame that they did not have much of chance to develop their 
potentials.  

Some people find their "ikigai" in their work.  Others find their "ikigai"
in their family lives.  ( And, I should admit that there are some people 
who strike good balance between them. )  Probably, one's character and 
ability, etc. will determine where she/he can find her/his "ikigai".  
I just do not believe that gender determines where one can find their
"ikigai".  

Surely, many Japanese women take more "family compatible" career.  But, 
it is too early to say "oh, they are happier that way."  ( I realize that
work is tough.  It is hard not to notice that after taking a crowded 
train around 9 pm in Tokyo and looking at all the tired "ojisantachi." )

My mother has been a housewife since she got married at age 21.  When
I was growing up, she often said, "Don't be like me.  Get some career."
Well, it was not totally a right attitude.  But, there must have been 
something which made her say that.  

>
>>  Suppose that Japanese daycare systems 
>>got much better and that Japanese husbands in general got
>>more involved in family chores.
>
>  In order for a Japanese husband to be able to share a burden at home with
>his wife, a rather drastic change in the general mentality (e.g., men have to
>support the household, men have to work till the last minute, men's value
>is determined according to their rank in the hierarchy, etc.) would be 
>prerequisite. 

I agree. They are not necessarily bad changes, are they.  I also realize 
that these changes might place heavier burden on Japanese women, too 
( such as they have to become more independent ).  But, any societies which
do not give individuals chances to develop their full potentials deserve 
some changes, don't they? 
>
>>  Would Japanese women still
>>"don't want to be equal with men at the workplace"?   
>
>  Probably, some women would.
>
>>Furthermore, are the small minority of Japanese women who
>>"want to be equal with men at the workplace" getting their
>>fair chances?  Maybe not.
>
>  If women who want to be equal with men consist a small minority
>as you say, the chances are that you see a smaller number of female
>executives than the male counterpart. We cannot measure the fairness by
>the number.

It was Doi-san's opinion that only a small minority of women want to be
equal with men in the workplace.  I had some trouble with his rhetoric.	

>
>>If an average HANAKO looks around
>>and finds more able and more ambitious women having tough time
>>in the workplace, she might be extremely discouraged and 
>>switch to more family oriented lifestyle.
>
>  If she is an able and ambitious (but not average) HANAKO, she might not
>be discouraged.
>
>  It should be also mentioned that there are many able and ambitious TARO
>having a tough time as well.
>
>>  Given opportunities
>>and right envioronments, this HANAKO might have wanted to be 
>>equal with men at the workplace.  
>
>   There should be an opportunity and environment that allow an average
>HANAKO to be comparable to an average TARO, but we should not create
>an illusion that an average HANAKO can be equal to an able and ambitious
>TARO. 

I have no intention of comparing an average HANAKO and an able and 
ambitious TARO.  I would shut up immediately if somebody assures me
that equally able and ambitous TARO and HANAKO are getting equal chances
in Japanese workplace.  I have never worked in a typical Japanese
company.  I don't know.  

>
>>If we look around, there are not so many Japanese women climbing
>>corporate ladders or whatever smoothly.
>
>  If you think that being a man is an almighty certificate for climbing
>up SMOOTHLY, that's a counter-sexism. (Ojisan datte ganbatte irunda!)

You are twisting my argument, Masuda-san.  I have never said that anybody
is having easier time.  Are equally able and ambitious TARO and HANAKO
climbing up with the equal difficulties?  That is my question.  

>
>>  But, it seems a little
>>to early to conclude that they just don't want it.  
>
>  Agreed. Probably, the original question that was made by Doi-san was not
>meant to say that Japanese women don't want to be equal.

Somebody else also mentioned that what Doi-san meant was that most Japanese
women do not want to have equal responsibility as "ojisan salarii man". But, 
I think that "responsibility" is not the right word neither.  It almost 
sounds like Japanese women are having easier time choosing family oriented 
lifestyle.

>
>>I mean no flame, really.
>
>  Men are smart enough to tell the difference between a decent opinion
>and a flame ... well, almost... 

Thank you.  I just did not want to be taken as a militant feminist or 
something.  

>
>>  But, just wanted to put my two cents
>>worth.    
>
>  In s.c.j., where only few female netters seem to contribute (oops, did
>I scare them away?), your opinion is much more precious than just two
>cents.
>  I'd appreciate your feedback to my opinion.
>
>--Michiaki

When I read Doi-san's article, I was pulling 10am to 3am work hours to get
some work done for my boss.  And, something in his statement really hit
my nerve.  I thought I should say someting for all the sweat and tears of
many of my female highschool classmates who are still unmarried and working
in Japan at age of 28.  

I will be leaving town tomorrow, and will not have access to the net until
I come back on Dec 31.  So, Happy Holidays to everybody. Yoiotoshio.  

Harumi
-- 
******************************************************************
	Harumi Ito  
			E-mail Address: harumi@power.stanford.edu