From: dsblack@iastate.edu (Vilkata TDK)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 05:22:58 GMT

In <lfc6m5INNcv4@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums) writes:

>	Here I am sitting in my own home and an acquaintance comes over to
>get some homework that she missed.  She sees my Elle calendar next to
>my computer and asks why I have it.  She goes on to tell me how that
>type of thing causes rape.  She has several friends and she knows it.
>Shit.  I asked her if she had any proof -- no, but she doesn't need it
>because she doesn't like feeling like she needs to look like some
>supermodel.  She tells me that guys look at things like that and
>toss off and then go rape women.  I mention to her that statistics of
>crime against women show a marked drop in crime where pornography and
>erotica are freely available  Of course she replies with the new
>feminist rebuttal "Well, I don't believe statistics."


>	I tried to ask her what she did believe in and only that her friends
>had been raped and she thought it was terrible.  But how did that relate
>to an Elle calendar?  Well, she didn't like it.  Shit.  I hate dealing
>with this type of bullshit.  

>	She went on to say that she really disliked supermodels and what
>they do since all guys expect the women in their lives to look like
>the super models.  I don't feel this is the case with me or most guys
>I know, but hey, she knows it to be true because she is insecure about
>her looks and it has to be all these media pictures' fault and therefore
>the women who are in them and the men who buy them.  I am then held
>responsible for her insecurity and her behaviour.

>	Of course it is all a plot of the patriarchy to subjugate women and
>undermine their power.  Yeah, right.

I've been following this subject line (Elle causes rape) for a few days, and I
didn't expect to post an article, but in one of the follow-up articles, someone
said something that reminded me of similar experiences, tho not that extreme.

Whenever any female friend (not SO) of mine sees my Elle calendar or a swimsuit
calendar at a store, or even a similar gif on the computer, they almost always
say, "Geez, that's kind of demeaning.  I hate it when they pose in swimsuits;
I just think it's detrimental," or something similar.  I've found that this
_always_ works:
I ask them, "Yeah, but what if it was a Chippendale calendar/pic?  What would
you think about it then?"  To which they kind of smile (they know I've got 
them), giggle a little, and say, "Oh, that's ok.  I don't mind that.  There's
nothing wrong with that."  They know I've got them nailed, but they respond
honestly anyway.

(OK, this next part assumes everyone reading is heterosexual.  Of course, there
is little chance of you _all_ being heterosexual, so don't think I'm being 
homophobic--it's just that this doesn't really work for homosexuals.  Enough
with political correctness--read on.)

So basically, the girls don't like the Elle/Cindy/etc. calendars, and even
think they're morally wrong.  But they do like the Chippendales.  And guys like
the Elle calendars.  Why?  CUZ WE'RE HETEROSEXUALS, DAMMIT!!  Of COURSE guys
like pics of girls and girls like pics of guys!  How stupid can these people 
be?  It's just natural!

The difference (this might sound sexist, but I'm just observing--any flames 
will be ignored) is that I honestly don't ever remember hearing any of my male
friends say that they were offended by the Chippendale calendars.  (Well,
sarcastically, maybe, but _definitely_ not seriously.)  That's because we
realize it's the same thing.  But I do hear a lot of girls complain about the
calendars we like.  It's like it's okay for them but not for us.  Which, of
course, is absurd.  I honestly wonder why guys can accept it but many girls
can't....

Anyway, I think the easiest thing in this case is often to point out that it's
the same as them looking at their calendars.  Usually, if you hit them in the
face with it, they can see the logic.  Although with the one saying Elle 
causes rape, she might be just a little bit too far over already...

I've rambled long enough.  Anyone else have observations on this subject?
I'd especially like to see info on other ways to get them to realize they're
the ones being sexist (by saying it's ok for them but not for us) and to admit
maybe it's ok after all...

Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1721 soc.women:19342 alt.feminism:4193 soc.men:19092