From: chen@natinst.com (Dapang Chen)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Conference, Sino-Tibetan Relations: Prospects for the future
Date: 2 Oct 1992 10:55:23 -0500
Organization: National Instruments, Austin, TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: eagle.natinst.com

In article <15844@umd5.umd.edu> mpound@astro.umd.edu (Marc Pound) writes:
>In article <liqiang.717961798@kramden> liqiang@kramden.nyu.edu (Li) writes:
>>
>>Again, as I have repeated, Tibetans are Chinese. Don't try to stir up
>>hatred among different Chinese groups. In the remote areas of China, everybody
>>has to live under harsh conditions. After all, China is still a developing
>>country.
>>
>If Tibetans are Chinese, why has the Chinese government systematically
>worked to wipe out all traces of native Tibetan culture?  (For, instance
>destroying 99.8% of Tibetan temples, destroying religious documents,
>works of art, books...)

Where did you get that information.  By the way, the crazy Chinese government
instigated the culture revolution that destroed or damaged almost all the
temples in China.  It is sad, indeed!
>
>Tibetans are NOT Chinese. Their language is as distinct from
>Chinese as their culture is. In fact, linguists divide the
>Sino-Tibetan languages in to at least two groups: Chinese and
>Tibeto-Burmese. The Tibetan language is very different from
>Chinese in its use of particles, sentence structure and even
>in the honorific language. Furthermore, Tibetan script comes from 
>northern Kashmir.
>
>(My info on Tibetan language comes from a 1991 post to soc.culture.china
>by Mark A. Sheldon.)
>

Language is important to a culture.  But it does not necessarily separate
people.  People with different languages can live together in ONE country
Aren't the US and Canada are good examples? (at least for now).

>Marc Pound 		--  "Don't forget, free Tibet!"
Slogans are not always helpful in the debate.  Reasonning does!


I have been on the sidelines for quite some time.  It is interesting to
see how people from different education background have vastly different
opinions on the Tibet issue.  The chinese almost have a consensus that Tibet
was and still is a part of China; the Tibetans are the chinises. On the other
hand, the Candians and Americans are strongly in favor of ideas that 
Tibet was independent country and it should be freed from Chinese rule
altogether.  Does this strike you that we are all under the influence
of propaganda one way or the other?

I am not a historian nor a politician.  So I take liberty to pose the 
following questions to you folks (expert) and to anybody who thinks this
debate is helpful and interesting.

1.  When was the last time Tibet was an independent country?  For how long?

2.  When was the last time before the current Chinese govenment took power
the Chinese dynasties claimed that Tibet was part of the empire?

3.  How many Chinese dynasties claimed that Tibet was part of the empire?

4.  If there was a Chinese empire that made a claim on Tibet, did she set
up the court or other administrative agencies in Tibet?

5  Have the Tibetans made significant progresses after 1949?  The comparisons
must be made in reference to the mainland.

6.  Does Dalai Lama really represent the  Tibetans or he is just another 
politician or a religion figure that takes advantage of the world opinion for 
his personal gains?

7.  Does anybody really know what the Tibetan system was before 1949.  We heard
so many horrible stories about that system and if those were true, does anybody
know what the Tibetans want?  They really want Dalai Lama back?

8.  Is it a national interest for China to control Tibet?  If it is, does 
history matter?

9.  If the native Indians so desire to claim all the land in the US and Canada,
not just part or a huge part of land, but ENTIRE land, 
and will you folks on the American and Canadian sides EVER allow a third party
to interfere?  Or would you still hold it to be self-evident that self-
determination is the way to go?  If you decide to stay here, aren't you 
applying a double standard to all those Chinese  people who have been
working so hard to help building Tibet.

What do we learn here?

In conclusion, I urge all Chinese fellows and everbody to be rational. Remeber
this is a debate?  Don't be too emotional.  That only blurs your arguments!