HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu (Chris Colby)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Teaching Evolution
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:51:27 GMT
Distribution: talk.origins
Organization: animal -- coelomate -- deuterostome

In article <MAGUIRE.92Sep15133426@sunspot.clarkson.edu> maguire@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Bill Maguire) writes:
>I have just finished reading Henry Morris's "Scientific Creationism
>(Public School Edition)" and Paul Kitcher's "Abusing Science."  I find
>myself agreeing with something that Mr. Kitcher begins to propose,
>both of these books could be presented together in a high school
>biology/science class. 

The only problem with this is some real biology is going to have to
be bumped to make room for the creationism. Of course, given the
dogmatic way science is taught in high school science courses,
sacrificing some content for a discussion of methodology might not be
a bad thing. Still, I think we oughta stick to teaching biology in 
biology courses -- call me crazy.

>Students could be asked to refute the
>creationists arguments and show why some of their logic is flawed.
>They would learn what makes a science a science, some history about
>[etc. etc.]

This would be a good course in and of itself for high school students
-- something along the line of "Scientific methodology and critical
thinking". Of course creationists would probably howl at having
their "theory" used as a prime example of logical fallacies, special
pleading and prevarication.

>Henry Morris might be right, his book might stop the production of
>mindless drones and lead more students to be inquisitive and
>questioning.

If it weren't for mindless drones, Morris would have to get a real
job. I can picture it now; "Would you like fries with that, Mr.
Colby?"

>Regards - Bill Maguire.

>P.S.  This would be an ironic "win" for the creationists as their work
>would be given time in the classroom...

Given that creationists refuse to present a theory of creationism,
I don't think we should overlook the possibility that creationism
is just an roundabout way of getting a moment of silence forced into
the public schools 8-) I'd love to see a biology text in public schools
that had a chapter on evolution followed by a blank page titled "The
theory of scientific creationism" 8-) 8-)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen)
Subject: Re: Thank you, Antti, for discussing things.
Keywords: Antti, evolution, creation, holistic, Menem, Norrblad
Organization: University of Joensuu
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 11:36:41 GMT

kachun@astro.as.arizona.edu (Ka Chun Yu) writes:

>In article <1992Sep9.154152.12886@cs.joensuu.fi> asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen) writes:
>>	Thank you, I would love to. You were honest enough to say it aloud. I
>>	have an interesting text about nonreligious objection to evolution,
>>	if you want it ask it from me by email. 

>Oh please do enlighten with us in the net with its title, and maybe even
>a summary.

	I have a software-problem: I can't get a textfile from my account
	to the BBS-system. I can mail it privately only. 
-- 

		Andreas - Siperian Sirri   Siberian Stint

	No ITU, love, evolution.           Tuusniemi ! Siis imein suut !
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll)
Subject: Re: Is Antti a JW? (was Re: macroevolution)
Organization: sdf Public Access UNIX, Dallas--unrestricted free shell access
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:58:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.104439.27104@cs.joensuu.fi> asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen) writes:
>corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll) writes:
>>Yeh, he a JW allright, and I emailed him and told him I was going
>>to tell on him for saying "bullshit"!
>
>	Hey, listen now, dudes ! I've lived in streets and to me your hypocriti-
>	cal and bourgeois playing with nice wordings is just what I said it to
>	be, bullshit. 
>
>	I think "bullshit" is more natural than f**k. 
>-- 
>
>		Andreas - Siperian Sirri   Siberian Stint
>
>	No ITU, love, evolution.           Tuusniemi ! Siis imein suut !

What the fuck are you talking about, Antti?  I use curse words all the
time, where I feel it is appropriate.  The *point* is, that Jehovah's
Witnesses aren't supposed to curse.  Remember Ephesians 4:29?


-- 
"All religions make me wanna throw up!"
"All religions make me sick!" - Dead Kennedys, Religious Vomit

corey@sdf.lonestar.org                       ..!uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!corey
Xref: sparky talk.origins:11222 alt.atheism:17052
From: simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)
Newsgroups: talk.origins,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: worthless comic strips
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:49:58 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England

In article <1992Sep11.153652.12928@phillip.edu.au> lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:
>
> [...]
>
>  I haven't noticed any posts condeming yoga/meditation/eastern philosophy in
>public schools. Don't be a Christophobe.

When the IYR/IMR/IEPR respectively demand that the doctrines enshrined in
yoga/meditation/eastern philosophy be taught as science, in school science
classes, with legal force, you'll notice the posts.

>lbarrass@phillip.edu.au                     Lindsay     

Cheers

Simon
-- 
Simon Clippingdale                simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science    Tel (+44) 203 523296
University of Warwick             FAX (+44) 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.            or 0203 etc. if you're in the sunny UK
From: news@fedfil.UUCP (news)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Holden Numbering
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:10:55 GMT
Organization: HTE

In article <1035@tdat.teradata.COM>, swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen) writes:

*|I hope you don't seriously mean, that since sauropods had to hold their
*|necks out AND their tails out, that it all balanced, and that the whole
*|deal was therefore easy for them.  If so, a better analogy would be
*|holding TWO 20 lb weights out from your body, one in each hand, instead
*|of just the one we were talking about.

*That is indeed what he is saying, and for good reason.  The sauropods
*tail is connected to its neck by *massive* *tendons*!

*Try attaching a short rope to between your wrists and set it on over of your
*shoulder.  Voila, now *you* have a tendon connecting your two weights.

*Isn't it interesting how the *rope* supports the weights, and relieves your
*poor arm muscles of the work?

I've replied to this in one article, but it's worth replying to a couple of
more times to make sure everybody gets it.  If you do what you say to
do here, you'd never be able to lower your hands to put them in your pants
pockets when it gets cold.

For the sauropod who tried to suspend his head and tail in like manner, the
problem would be lowering his head to drink;  he'd live about as many days
as a sauropod could go without water.  Probably about three or four days.

The rest of what I've been seeing from you (Friesen) makes about as much
sense as this one.  In particular, Ultrasaur and supersaur are known
quantities, and by all accounts brachiosaurids.  McGowan's book, which is
two or three years old, gives a 180 ton figure for ultrasaur.

BTW.  Where do you get "...set it on over of your shoulder..."  It sound
like you done been takin grammer lessons from Jim Meritt ober at Mitre
Corp...





-- 
Ted Holden
HTE
From: robd@cherry09 (Robert Derrick)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: an eternity with Lionel -- egad
Date: 8 Sep 92 15:12:35 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Chris Colby (colby@bu-bio.bu.edu) wrote:
: (Lionel Tun) writes:
: 
: >we decided
: >that to spend eternity in God's presence (heaven) was an appropriate
: >length of time
: 
: So in other words, you are going to spend eternity with your god in
: heaven. Thus anyone else who goes to heaven will spend an eternity
: with you. I have one question -- is it too late to get a confirmed
: reservation for hell? I'd hate to get bumped considering the
: alternative.

As Mark Twain said, "Heaven for climate, Hell for society."

rob derrick
robd@cray.com
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen)
Subject: Re: Antti's word
Organization: University of Joensuu
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:57:14 GMT

kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub) writes:
>airhead, bozo, goober, twit, dimbulb, poltroon, maroon, and, of course,
>user(*).

	bimbo, jughead
-- 

		Andreas - Siperian Sirri   Siberian Stint

	No ITU, love, evolution.           Tuusniemi ! Siis imein suut !
From: asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: macroevolution
Date: 7 Sep 92 10:17:21 GMT
Organization: University of Joensuu

adpeters@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Andy Peters) writes:
>A-ha!  We have discovered Antti's "scientific source."  Are you a Jehovah's
>Witness, Antti, or did you get this book when they visited your door?

	It is not THE scientific source. I am a JW, if that matters. 

>Many of us on t.o have read this book.  We are not impressed.

	Please, explain !
-- 

		Andreas - Siperian Sirri   Siberian Stint

	No ITU, love, evolution.           Tuusniemi ! Siis imein suut !
From: Dr.Pepper@f241.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Thank you, Antti, for discussing thi
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Aug 21 1992
Date: 14 Sep 92  01:55:00

 > From: asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen)
 > Message-ID: 1992Sep11.113641.21456@cs.joensuu.fi

 >>Oh please do enlighten with us in the net with its title, and maybe even
 >>a summary.

 > I have a software-problem: I can't get a textfile from my account
 >       to the BBS-system. I can mail it privately only.

I'd be happy to read it if you mail it this way.

+--------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| 10                    2  | Garden Grove Institute of Technology |
|        DR PEPPER         | Community Outreach Center            |
|                       4  |                                      |
+--------------------------+ Snail Addr: Unit #1, 7872 Trask      |
| It's my government, i'll |             Westminster, Ca  92683   |
| badmouth it if i feel    | Modem:      714-894-7039             |
| like it!                 | Fidonet:    1:103/241                |
|                          | Candynet:   42:1001/1                |
|                          | Internet:   Dr.Pepper@f241.n103.z1   |
|                          |              .fidonet.org            |
+--------------------------+--------------------------------------+

---
From: lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Question for Creationists
Date: 10 Sep 92 10:23:51 GMT
Organization: City University, London

btd@IASTATE.EDU (Benjamin T Dehner) writes:
>	One thing I don't like about christianity is its racial inferiority
>complex; the idea man is evil and bad (or fallen) and totally worthless and 
>can't get anywhere with the help of this 'God' person.  Methinks I would be
>in better company with Einstein and Ghandi in hell then with many of the
>christians I've seen on this net in heaven

You are getting mixed up with evo thoughts again!
Man, in his fallen state is _sinful_. Man as created by God was in
God's own words, `very good'. It is not God who says man is `totally
worthless'. In fact God considered man so worthwhile, and loved him
so much that He sent Jesus to die in man's place to atone for man's
sins. Is that good enough to dispell your `racial inferiority
complex' idea?

--
Lionel Tun   (lionel@cs.city.ac.uk)
Vision Group, City University, London, EC1V 0HB. 071-477 8000 x 3889
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: macroevolution
Date: 8 Sep 92 00:39:26 GMT
Followup-To: talk.origins
Organization: Apple

In article <1992Sep7.162127.4115@cs.joensuu.fi>, asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi
(Antti Siivonen) wrote:
> 	It's a brief, comprehensive introduction to the evolutionary 
> 	questions in an easy-to-read-form. As such it doesn't go too far to
> 	individual cases, and thus successfully maintains the view to evolution
> 	in entirety. 

Eh? We might state the same thing about Dawkins' "Selfish Gene".
So you believe that Dawkins is right based on a one sentence
overview? If not, why do you think we aren't convinced by your
brief two sentence paragraph, that does not provide *any* kind
of logical statements?

Kent


"I would rather have a thousands idiots attacking my position, than
have one idiot helping to defend it."	[Paraphrased from Voltaire]
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Linguistics and evolution
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:07:37 GMT
Followup-To: talk.origins
Organization: Apple

In article <1992Sep3.122220.17259@cs.joensuu.fi>, asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi
(Antti Siivonen) wrote:
> cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand) writes:
> >In article <1992Sep2.171035@IASTATE.EDU> kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub) writes:
> >>[for brevities sake I am answering all 3 of Antti's posts in one post]
> >>> And if this is the 
> >>>	criteria, languages have changed into worse. It was said in my Finnish 
> >>>	lessons that you can't translate "epajarjestelmallistyttamattomyydes-  
> >>>	saankopahan" to English. That about expressivity. 
> 
> >It's not only untranslatable, it's not Finnish.
> 
> 	It is. 

Let's see if we could make out something from that messy word:
epa - non
jarjestelmallis - system oriented
tyttamattomyydes- I assume this should be  tyottamatto (no job) 
saankopahan - ???? like "could I get bad"??

So it means non-system-oriented jobless $%^$%^(*$%^$%

Cue? Do you really speak Finnish, or are you just joking with us?

Kent

"I would rather have a thousands idiots attacking my position, than
have one idiot helping to defend it."	[Paraphrased from Voltaire]
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: ds0007@buhao (Dale Skiba)
Subject: Re: macroevolution
Organization: Medtronic, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:35:06 GMT

asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen) writes:
: mrh@centerline.com (Mike Huben) writes:
: >Show us how it can't be true.  Empty claims are all you've presented.
: 
: 	I think most anti-evolution books contain that one for you. 

I actually used to feel that way.  But after reading both sides of
the issue I have changed my mind.  Every demonstration that evolution
is false has been shown to be bogus.  The only rational conclusion
for me is that most anti-evolution books are written by people who
have no concept of what the theory of evolution really is.

--
Dale Skiba
From: David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Tun's God's Phone Number. No, really!
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Aug 21 1992
Date: 15 Sep 92  10:53:50

Tag1: Bruce Stephens (bruce@supr.scm.liv.ac.uk (Bruce Stephens))
Tag2: lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun)
 
BS>LT> "If you want to question this, ask Him yourself."
 
BS> "Does anyone have His phone number?"
 
Her number is 1-800-IAM-DEAD.
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: huston@access.digex.com (Herb Huston)
Subject: Re: Linguistics and evolution
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: world,local
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 11:43:45 GMT

In article <1SEP199212273941@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu> lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) writes:
>And for a more popular account:
>
>Stephen Jay Gould, "Grimm's Greatest Tale," _Natural History_, Feb. 1989,
>   pp. 20-28.

Collected in _Bully for Brontosaurus_, which has recently appeared in a
paperback edition.

-- Herb Huston
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll)
Subject: Re: Is Antti a JW? (was Re: macroevolution)
Organization: sdf Public Access UNIX, Dallas--unrestricted free shell access
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 22:35:00 GMT

In article <2AA7AEEC.6798@ics.uci.edu> bvickers@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen) writes:
>>	Have you read the little blue book "Life - how did it get here, by
>>	evolution or creation ?".
>
>Do you consider this little disingenuous, flawed and deceptive piece of
>crap a scientific source?  I think the JW tract you are referring to has
>been taken apart throroughly in this forum already.

Hey, I'm working on a big list of bad things that I found in that book.
I posted some to talk.religion.misc..

>
>At least now I know where you're coming from.  Although I must
>admit I wouldn't have expected a Jehovah's Witness to be using
>words like "bullshit."
>
>--
> ___            _    _     _  _        _
>(  _) ___ ___ _( )__( )_  ( )( ) o  __( ) _  ___  ___  ___
>(___)(_) (__=) (_)_ (_)_   (__) (_)(_((_)(_'(__=)(_) _(_)
>Brett J. Vickers (bvickers@ics.uci.edu)

Yeh, he a JW allright, and I emailed him and told him I was going
to tell on him for saying "bullshit"!

-- 
"All religions make me wanna throw up!"
"All religions make me sick!" - Dead Kennedys, Religious Vomit

corey@sdf.lonestar.org                       ..!uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!corey
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Request for book reviews
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Date: 10 Sep 1992 15:27 MST  
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <6914@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM>, alanf@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (Alan M Feuerbacher) writes...
> 
>Does anyone know of any reviews of the following books?
> 
>Six-day creationist:
> 
>    Phillip E. Johnson, _Darwin On Trial_, Regnery  Gate-
>    way, Washington, DC, 1991.

     _Nature_ 352(8 Aug 1991):485-486 and 354(14 Nov 1991):101
     _NCSE Reports_ 11(Winter 1991):4-5 (a Johnson talk reviewed, not
       the book)

     I don't have references handy but I know both _Christianity Today_
and _National Review_ gave it positive reviews.  (Reviewers for all of
the above were David Hull for _Nature_, Jonathan Marks for _NCSE Reports_,
J.P. Moreland (and others, I think) for _Christianity Today_, and Doug
Bandow for _National Review_.)  I know Thomas Jukes has reviewed it
somewhere (maybe in the NCSE Bookwatch publication) and _First Things_
did a Philip Johnson symposium in the Oct and Nov 1990 issues (in which
_First Things_ editor Matthew Berke gave a really terrible argument
against naturalism/materialism/determinism).

>Long age creationist:
> 
>    Daniel  E. Wonderly, _Neglect of Geologic Data: Sedi-
>    mentary Strata Compared with Young-Earth  Creationist
>    Writings_, Interdisciplinary Biblical Research Insti-
>    tute, Hatfield, Pennsylvania, 1987.
> 
>    Daniel E. Wonderly, _God's  Time-Records  in  Ancient
>    Sediments_,  Crystal  Press Publishers, Flint, Michi-
>    gan, 1977.

I don't know of actual reviews of these, but while looking through
issues of the ICR's _Impact_ recently I came across one by Steven
Austin which made reference to both of these and argues against them
(No. 210: "Were Grand Canyon Limestones Deposited by Calm and Placid
Seas?", December 1990).

>Attacking evolution:
> 
>    Michael  Denton,  _Evolution:  A  Theory  In Crisis_,
>    Adler & Adler, Publisher, Inc.,  Bethesda,  Maryland,
>    1985.

Mark Ridley, "More Darwinian detractors," _Nature_ 318(14 Nov 1985):124-125.
Niles Eldredge, _Quarterly Review of Biology_ 61(Dec 1986):541-542.

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: maddox@utkvx3.utk.edu (Maddox, John Thortan)
Subject: Gentry/Kouzenetsov Info request.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 05:39:00 GMT


    I am looking for information on two people.  

 1) I recently came across Gentry's book "Creation's Tiny Mystery".
Any info on responses from the scientific community (other than those
he includes in the text) would be welcomed.  

 2) I noticed in the local daily that a Dr. Dimitri A. Kouzenetsov
will be speaking soon at a local church.  He will present a program
supporting biblical creation.  Has anyone heard of him before?

Any material on the above would be appreciated.  

John

maddox@utkvx.utk.edu


Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: watkins@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Fred Hoyle followup (ignore if redundant)REGISTER
Date: 11 Sep 92 09:32:12 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <987@tdat.teradata.COM>, swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen) writes:
> In article <BtpE2B.1no.2@cs.cmu.edu> lindsay+@cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:
> |
> |>A theory which postulates an unknown physical process is supposed to be
> |>taken seriously??
> |
> |Well, that's not fair. He postulated a process which explained the
> |known data, just as Maxwell and Rutherford did, 'back when. His
> |wasn't the only suggestion which fit the data, and when better data
> |came in, the Hoyle C-field no longer fit, and was dropped. That's the
> |way science goes. In his day, he was a good astronomer.
> 
> Yep, in his day.  But when he clung to his steady state universe long
> after the evidence refuted it soundly he stopped being one.
> 
> The guy seems to be about as unable to drop a cherished theory as
> a Creationist.
> Stanley.Friesen
Or as an Evolutionist? :-)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Subject: Re: Chance? Yeah, Sure
Reply-To: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:04:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.162220.14640@st-andrews.ac.uk>, mrl@st-andrews.ac.uk ( 
Michael Ladomery) writes:
> In article <1992Sep11.145357.11597@aurora.com> isaak@aurora.com (Mark Isaak)
writes:
>>
>>Could a creationism apologist please explain to me how an act of
>>God can be distinguished from pure chance?  I submit that it is
>>creationism which says life arose by pure chance, and evolution
>>which says is was shaped by selection.
>>-- 
>>Mark Isaak           "Every generation thinks it has the answers, and every
> 
>Yes, good point. Now in His alleged creation, the Lord allegedly created a 
>particular ecological system, a particular set of animals, a particular set
>of plants, out of the (infinite) set of possibilities; was that through
>Divine Chance? ie what God felt like on the day (by chance?)

   No, clearly the ecology he created was the unique optimal ecology until
the fall when sinful humans started messing it up.  I'm not sure about
the evidence that other ecologies might have existed in the past, but they
are only theoretical.  I hope to treat them in a future post.

Dr. Pangloss

( Dan/Danwell@IASTAET.EDU :} )