Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Re: Education Regarding Alternative Family Units (Re: The Analogy Betwixt Gays & Blacks (Re: Children in Samegender Families))
From: psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek)
Date: 6 Jan 93 15:37:08 GMT
Followup-To: alt.rush-limbaugh
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <5JAN199319085569@zeus.tamu.edu> rlc1028@zeus.tamu.edu (Gadson Sandor) writes:
>	And, obviously, you didn't think to much of the possibility
>that such attitudes could lead to furthering their juvenile bigotry.
>Had they been saying things which you really had thought to be either
>wrong or dangerous, would you have interjected?  I mean, what if they 
>had been going on about how rotten "niggers" are?  Would you have been
>content to simply observer the conversation for its interesting qualities?

Why do you think, that I didn't think it was wrong?  What ever my feelings
are on their attitudes, as I've said, I don't consider it my right to assume
the job of setting the moral compasses of other peoples children.

And as I said, or actually tried to imply, prior to this conversation I
was unaware any such show existed on MTV, so I very well couldn't tell
them what they should have or could have noticed.  I got pretty sick and
tired of the junk MTV spews out many years ago and haven't tuned in at all
in years. 

As for what I heard from the kids, their perception, right or wrong I can't
judge because I haven't seen it, their perception is that this show is about
homosexuals and they've rejected it.  If it is as you say, and I'll take your
word on it, that there is only on bisexual man amonst a group; then I would
think that there reaction is a pretty good indicator as to the type and 
degree of impact even minimum exposure can have.

>grew up around privately racist people, my schooling told me that Blacks
>were good people.  And (to please your threorising) I do recall other kids 
>who ignored the teaching nonetheless, and are bigots today.  But that
>social engineering worked on me.  

Now be honest here, I have a question for you.   Since I have never said
that this type of social engineering will never work and you say it seems 
to have worked on you; would you also argue that as a whole  the racial
climate is significantly better in this country?  Are the recent experiences
of New York City and Los Angeles indications of the effectiveness of
wide spread tolerance programs?  Can you name me one culture or country
where the teaching of views that were in direct opposition to traditionally
held cultral views, didn't eventually result in widespread violence?  

I think Europe is probably a good place to start looking for evidence.  
Let's see, Germany tried alot of this "engineering" after WWII, is their
recent bout with resurgent Nazism and other ultra right wing groups just
a coincidence?  Bosina maybe?  Muslims and Serbs seemed to do just fine
as long there was an iron fist to enforce the law.  Left to their own
though it seems that there, and in much of eastern Europe, the hate was 
suppressed.   

Can you show me just one example of social engineering at this level has
ever been successful?

>your kids' futures is all about.  What are the terrible possible 
>consequences for your kids?  Are you worried that they'll be incited to
>do violence to fags, and be thrown into jail?  Right now (though it's
>late) that's about the only terrible thing I can foresee.
>

Try foreseeing this.  Sooner or later these kids will graduate, hopefully,
and when they leave the public school system and find they can not compete in
college and in the job market with the graduates of schools Bidwell friends
they'll want to know why.  When they look back to find out why there public
educations failed them waht will they see?  Will they see a system that devoted
all its resources to giving them the very best education, the very best 
skills, the best chance to compete in life?  Or will they look back and see 
a system rife with lazy union hacks that would rather spend their time and
money sharing their values on everything from gay rights to animal rights and
squanders their resources on social engineering rather than education.

I know which of those two my city wastes my taxes dollars on and I'm
not the least bit happy about it.  And something tells me that when Chelsa
Clinton looks back she will see something quite different than the garbage
my son is getting.  

Paul