HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (matsd@physchem.kth.se (mats dahlgren))
Subject: Re: Dagens Nyheter April 6th on Swedish-speaking Finns
Reply-To: matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:56:28 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.133803.2689@nntp.hut.fi>, jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:
>In article <1992Apr6.094502.5672@lth.se>, sundinKC@dna (Anders Sundin) writes:
>
>>Edit S|dergran is celebrated by the Swedish speaking Finns, and by
>>the rest of the world. But in Finnish Finland the uninterest is total.
>
>Hmm, I don't think I've ever heard about Edit S|dergran.  Should I?
>Is the rest of the world celebrating everyone who know writes and
>speaks multiple languages and has gone to a different-language
>university, or what's the point here?
>
>//Jyrki


YES!  You should have heard of Edit S|dergran.  The point here is you -- 
being a Finn -- should know enough of your cultural history to at the 
very least have heard about one of the main poets of Finland this 
century.  Does the fact she was capable of speaking other languages than 
the majoriy language make her a "lower being"?


mats


********************************************************************************

  mats dahlgren 
  Dept. of Physical Chemistry		Mail:	matsd@physchem.kth.se
  The Royal Institute of Technology	Phone:	+46 8 790 8595
  S-100 44  Stockholm, Sweden           Fax:	+46 8 790 8207

              All opinions expressed above are private opinions.
From: hberg@polisci.pol.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Vietnamese in Finland (was: Swedes in Finland)
Date: 16 Apr 92 14:15:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: polisci.hberg.103
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota

In article <22907@goofy.Apple.COM> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:

>In article <1992Apr1.132055.951@hellgate.utah.edu>,
>u-lchoqu%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Lee Choquette) writes:
>> 
>> In article <22260@goofy.Apple.COM> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>>  > I have some information about Vietnameese refuges living in Narpes,
>>  > Finland (the swedish talking part of the country). They have a 
>>  > translator which helps them with the daily work, but they get training
>>  > to learn their new language, Swedish (hep!).
>> 
>> I have always wondered about this.  It seems as though the Finnish government
>> places a lot of its non-Nordic immigrants in Swedish-speaking parts of
>Finland.
>> I've also talked to Vietnamese in N{rpes, as well as Larsmo, another Swedish-
>> speaking rural area.  Isn't it harder for the Vietnamese to first learn
>Swedish ...

If they're learning the local dialect of N{rpes Swedish they won't be 
understood anywhere else.  If you think [lvdalsm}l is difficult, you should 
hear N{rpesiska!!  The rumor at ]bo Akademi, back when I was there, was that 
the kids from N{rpes could ace Old Norse without studying - it was 
virtually their native language.  Exaggerated, probably, but it is a very 
archaic dialect.

PS.  Are my },{,| coming up as the last three letters of the Swedish 
alphabet on the screens of those of you who have Swedish-speaking screens?

BH
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: sundinKC@dna.lth.se (Anders Sundin)
Subject: Re: Dagens Nyheter April 6th on Swedish-speaking Finns
Organization: Organic Chemistry 2, Lund University, Sweden
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:39:39 GMT

Jyrki,

The article you quoted as mine is a summary of an article in Dagens
Nyheter by Tuva Korsstr|m, the cultural editor of the Finnish journal
Hufvudstadsbladet, which by the way is in Swedish.
The statements you quoted were not mine, I simply know to little about
Finland to have opinions like the ones presented in the summary:

>There are indications that the Finnish-speaking majority in Finland
>regards the Swedish dialect in Finland as unnessecary, alien, and
>repulsive. On the streets of Helsingfors the Swedish-speaking avoid
>using their mothers language. In Euro-Finland differences in skin
>color or language are not appreciated.

I thought it was interesting to present the view of a Swedish-speaking
Finn for a change.
-- 
 Anders Sundin           e-mail: sundinKC@dna.lth.se
 Organic Chemistry 2             Anders.Sundin@orgk2.lth.se
 University of Lund              ok2aps@gemini.ldc.lu.se
 P.O. Box 124                    ok2aps@seldc52.bitnet
 S-22100 Lund            phone:  +46 46 108214
 Sweden                  fax:    +46 46 108209
From: fsullivn@vax1.tcd.ie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: HOW do I log into Statsbiblioteket DK
Date: 14 Apr 92 12:11:56 GMT
Organization: Trinity College Dublin


Help!

Does anyone know how I can log in to the computer catalog system at the Danish
 State Library in Aarhus (Statsbilioteket).  I need to do this very quickly in
 order to check out some bibliographical references for my thesis.

I know that anonymous users can log in to the library computer here in Trinity
at lib1.tcd.ie and giving username 'opac'.  I assume and hope it may be
possible to do likewise with SB in Aarhus.

I'd appreciate a reply by e-mail as I don't log in to news that often anymore.

Tusind tak,

Fergus Sullivan,
Trinity College,
Dublin,
Ireland.
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 7 Apr 92 12:50:14 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Apr3.122924.10645@husc3.harvard.edu> donaghey@husc8.harvard.edu (Thomas Donaghey) writes:
>The columnist
>(who was in favor of social democracy)

  I have nothing against that, but...

>was asked by a medical student if
>it was true that doctors in the US could make more than $1m per year, and
>wrote "I had to reply that this was true for some specialties, but what I
>did not have the chance to answer was that in the US students have to pay
>huge sums for their education, which in Sweden comes free,
				^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  ...I have something against journalists peddling un- or halftruths regardless
of it is of ignorance or by design.

  The truth in this matter is that while the actual education (lectures) are
free, the student have to pay all materials themselves, and due to the 
generally broken housing market, very often live in an expensive apartment
that they cannot count on having since it is rented from the person who rented
it from the landlord. Add to this normal living expenses, which is high over
here, and the forced membership in the Students union which you have
to be a member in to be allowed to take the tests.
  So how do people solve this? Well there is the so called 'Studiel}n' which 
is a big part loan and a small part subsizie that have to be payed back,
*with interest* when you are finished. The amount payed back per year is
dependent on income, so if your wage is low enough (not an issue for doctors,
but for many academic professions) the loan will grow faster than you
pay it off.

  So the situation isn't as black and white as "In the US you pay everything 
by your self and in Sweden you get it all for free." Add the often extensive
grants in the US, and the lower tax and it becomes greyer still.

>...One wonders if the application rate of US would-be medical students to
>Swedish medical schools has gone up recently...

  Pay US tax, and get Swedish benefits, what a deal!

>|    Thomas C. Donaghey    |  Army.  I would have done better to retire to the 

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
From: nindola@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Hard times in Norway?
Date: 9 Apr 92 07:47:24 GMT
Organization: Nokia Telecommunications.

These are hard times for the western world I think. It's comforting
to see that old wisdom still applies - you can't eat more than you 
earn. In Finland and the other Nordic countries this means that
you can't create jobs in the public sector when the motor (industry)
is too small. Now is the time for restructuring. It will be 
painful and politically almost impossible. That's why I'm in a 
way very happy that the recession hit Finland with full strength
at once (=the western recession + the death of the eastern trade).
Maybe a political decision can now be made. The government came
up with some measures last Sunday, measures to which they don't
need the help of the opposition. But, unless they can't create a
more flexible labour market, it will not be enough.

I think the finnish economy will be strong after this, other 
countries are not forced to make as large restructurations.

Niklas Indola
Organization: Wirtschaftsuniversitaet Wien, Vienna, Austria
Date: Saturday, 11 Apr 1992 05:07:22 WUT
From: <8325823@awiwuw11.wu-wien.ac.at>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dutch and Finnish Pastilles

Oh come on....

Hesburgers are pretty good.  Their fries leave a bit more to
be desired but junk food is junk food.
If you cared about what you were eating, you wouldn't eat
junk.  =)

yeah, finland is pretty cool.  =)

irene
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 8 Apr 92 11:39:33 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Apr4.034154.4741@midway.uchicago.edu> rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>> . . . a civil servant at "Taxerings-myndigheten"(1) . . .  claimed,
>> with a straight face, that to compute how much 'real' tax we pay, we
>> have to subtract the benefits from what we pay.  You get it?  He
>> meant that if we get something back from the government for the
>> taxes we pay, this means that we don't really pay any taxes at all!
>
>Well, this is a little unfair, I think.  Of course, you "get something"
>for your taxes, in the sense that the government spends it
>somehow.

  Tom takes $100 from him Dick, buys a pink flamingo for them and gives it to
Harry. What did Dick get (other than shafted)?

>Nonetheless, in comparing the taxation between Sweden and, say,
>the U.S., it is VERY FAIR, to take into account the sums that
>the government pays for in Sweden, which people pay out-of-pocket
>in the U.S.

  Only if the person in question actually would have payed out of his own 
pocket. This means that it still is impossible to make such sweeping 
generalizations as he did, since the 'real tax' would vary from person to
person and from time to time.

>Medical insurance is only the most obvious of these.

  If you are willing and able to wait, that is. If you aren't or can't 
you'll have to cough up the money twice. First time for the tax, second
time for the care from a independent.

>There are other examples that add up. Opera tickets are about
>a third the cost in Stockholm as in Chicago, probably because
>of state subsidies. The Waxholm boats taking you out to the
>Ska"rgaard are a cheap source of entertainment.

  We can debate the public value of cheap opera and cheap boatrides, and
also what use I here in Gothenburg have of all those entertainments for
Stockholmers.

>Dagis is 
>only 15% of the cost of what we pay here.

  Nope, it still costs (aproximately) the same. Imagine that 1000 families
have 2 kids each, and that each kid cost $1000 to place in day-care. Each
family will then spend $2000 on day-care. If they pay 85% through taxes they
will only have to pay $300, so it appears cheaper, but the total cost is
the same. 
  There are however two effects that modify this, the first is that the day-
care that those 1000 families use will be heavily subsidised by those other
1000 families that *can't* use the day-care they pay for because all day-care
centers are full. The second is that the effort to administer this scheme will
suck up a noticable part of the money. I expect that day-care costs as much
there as here.

>And so on, and so
>forth.

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Mayday
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:07:18 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology


  Nope, no emergency here:) I am talking about a day in May, namely the 1st of
May.

  I have the radio on and when I was writing my followup against flags and
anthems they reported that the Social Democratic Party have decided to reform
the 1st of May demonstrations.

  This year, blank placards will be issued to the participants so that they can
write what they like on them. If this is news I must conclude that in previous
years, the placards was preprinted with approved slogans.

  Aaah, glasnost! :)

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: raustein@athena.mit.edu (Yngve Koehler Raustein)
Subject: Re: Fighting Racism?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:44:12 GMT

In article <10846@chalmers.se>, d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:

|>   This year however a nasty rumour reached the ears of the Principal. 
|> It said that the students had planned to sing the Swedish national anthem at
|> one point during the graduation cermonies. The Principal immediately 
|> interposed himself and told the pupils that they were forbidden to sing the
|> Swedish national anthem on graduation because of "racist connotations".
|> 
|>   There is no doubt his intentions was good, but we know what road good
|> intentions pave. What will the students think when racist cliques try to
|> fool people into believing that Swedish authorities and politicians want to
|> de-Swede the country at the same time as their own Principal forbid them
|> to sing the Swedish national anthem? 
|>   If I attributed to malice what can be attributed to stupidity I would 
|> really question the motives of that Principal.

I agree.  In Norway there has been a tendency to label every criticism of the
immigration policies racism.  (I'll refrain from mentioning the hysteria and 
over-sensitivity at this side of the pond...)  There is a number of pure racists 
in Norway, but I dare say the government has made a lot of mistakes that they
have been slow to rectify, and all criticism thereof is not racism.  
Over-reactions can cause violent counter-reactions, and the founding of
despicable racist movements.  (Like FMI in Norway.)

Your example is pretty grotesque, though.  When the immigrant children are
admitted to Sweden, the National Anthem is also their anthem.  The principal
probably has some kind of guilt complex...  (I must admit that I don't know 
the words to the Swedish National Anthem beyond "Du gamla, du fria, 
du fj{llh|ga nord..." -- does it contain any reference to the "Aryan race" or 
anything else that might justify the Principal's reaction?)

Yngve

-- 
Yngve K. Raustein		| ``We use choicest juicy chunks of fresh 
362 Memorial Drive		| Cornish ram's bladder, emptied, steamed, 
Cambridge, MA 02139		| flavoured with sesame seeds whipped into a 
617-225-7343 			| fondue and garnished with lark's vomit.''
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: I desperately need lower taxes.
Date: 15 Apr 92 07:13:39 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden

reykja@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Reykja Sigurdsson) writes:

> regarding taxes, and why you should pay despite the fact that you have 
>no children: well, golly gee, would you like to be old in a society that
>is being run by illiterate people who are unable to think logically or 
>govern with any competence????

>...the US where...
>most of the children are coming out of the public schools unable to read, 
                                            ^^^^^^

Now that's a fine argument for high taxes: *public* schools don't teach
children to read, even! Keep up the good work, Reykja!
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:2595 soc.culture.europe:3497 eunet.politics:568
From: abraham@iesd.auc.dk (Per Abrahamsen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: Increasing amount of people against EU in Denmark
Date: 1 Apr 92 01:32:22 GMT
	<1992Mar24.114118.5833@nntp.hut.fi>
	<1992Mar26.102841.7717@pcsbst.pcs.com>
	<ABRAHAM.92Mar27214038@loke.iesd.auc.dk>
	<1992Mar30.070157.14544@mentor.dk>
Organization: HUGIN Expert A/S


>>>>> On 30 Mar 92 07:01:57 GMT, jomp@mentor.dk (Jan Otto Munch Pedersen) said:

Jan> abraham@iesd.auc.dk (Per Abrahamsen) writes:
>- EU will force us to drop our superior health, environment, and
>social system.

Jan> IMHO, this is the REAL argument against EU. This has already started and
Jan> will accelerate after we have entered EU.

That argument is as real as all the other arguments listed.  Denmark
don't have superior (compared to North European standards generally)
health or social systems, and haven't had it for about ten years.
Most Danish people have just not discovered it yet, and believes there
is still something to protect.
From: percus@scws6.harvard.edu (Allon Percus)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Looking for pen-pals
Keywords: I like to find a female pen-pals in Northern European countries.
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:25:39 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Apr6.151118.448@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> shay@osiris (George Shay) writes:
>I like to find a female pen-pal in northern european countries(Norway,
>sweden, denmark, etc). Hope she is under her forties(not necessarily). I am
>just very interested in the culture in these countries.

Female culture in particular.


Allon Percus
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 6 Apr 92 10:34:07 GMT
	<1992Apr2.143629.12819@lth.se>
	<10763@chalmers.se>,<1992Apr3.174808.16139@lth.se>
	<1992Apr4.140141.17795@kth.se> <1992Apr6.073634.27102@eua.ericsson.se>
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista

In article <1992Apr6.073634.27102@eua.ericsson.se> euafri@eua.ericsson.se 
(Fredrik.Ostman) writes:

 >Who said socialism wasn't good for capitalists?

  What has socialism to do with your complaint?
From: baker@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Andrew Baker)
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic  freedom
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 13:21:46 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.204157.9336@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Espen.H.Koht@dartmouth.edu (Espen H. Koht) writes:
>   And what happened to Harry and Tom's $100?  No really if you look at
>the entire system you realize that no money vanishes into thin air no
>matter how much or little taxation there is.

If something is worth $4000 to me, and it costs $10000 to produce, then
I won't buy it.  But if the government subsidizes it so that it only
costs me $1000 (with the taxpayers picking up the other $9000), then
I will buy it.  So I am getting $4000 of value, and society as a whole
is spending $10000; therefore the tax and subsidy system *is* causing $6000
to "vanish into thin air."  It is called economic inefficiency.

>Would you
>rather live in a society where you have to spend coniderable amounts of
>money on home security, send your kids to schools with guards?

It is not clear that there is a direct relation.  If you look at US
social spending, it has gone up tremendously since (say) 1960 --
and so has the crime rate.  And anyway, you are exaggerating.  I
have never needed to spend any money on fancy home security systems, and
I never had guards at any of my schools.

>Forgo
>things in life you appreciate because your favorite musician/author is
>not publishable from an economic perspective?

Welfare for the poor is one thing, but this is just silly.  *Someone*
has to pay the musician or author, and *someone* has to decide who
can be a musician or author, so it might as well be the person who is
enjoying the work.  To put it another way, you are saying that
someone who likes an unpopular musician should get a subsidy to
spend on this musician.  But why don't you just give them the subsidy
in cash and let them spend it on what they want?

>Or be a slave to tastes
>and opinions that are only shared by the majority of people because
>that is what nakes economic sense?

More silliness.  In a free market, you are not bound by the majority
(you may be confusing the free market with social democracy).

>   There are a lot of better examples out there. I always laugh when I
>see cars here in the US with bumper-stickers that say 'ban taxes' while
>I'm driving on the *highway* (or any other road for that matter). 
>There is no way these things can be privately financed. 

Roads are part of the nation's infrastructure, and thus a reasonable
function of government.  In some cases, you can charge people though: toll
roads and bridges, for instance; to the extent that it is feasible, it is
usually a good idea to do this because it encourages people to use
the most efficient means of transport.
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:44:36 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Apr3.174808.16139@lth.se> sundinKC@dna.lth.se (Anders Sundin) writes:
>The conservatives want a major "change of system" (systemskifte).
>
>The conservatives should not break it, they should mend it.

  I think there is a difference of opinion on wether the change of system will
be a mending or a breaking.
 
  Besides, look closely at this line:
'The conservatives want a major "change of system" (systemskifte)'. Yes, the
*conservatives* want to change things rapidly while the 'progressives' wants
to keep everything like it is. Bloody conservative, those progressives:)

> Anders Sundin           e-mail: sundinKC@dna.lth.se

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."