HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: t// Re: T/ Re: T% Thought for the Day
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:17:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.222538.10743@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>
>rhs@world.std.com (Richard H Schwartz) writes:
>|> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>|> 
>|> >People whose
>|> >intelligence is expressed in other ways that the ability to pass tests
>|> >need not apply -- even if accepted, 
>|> 
>|> Nonsense as written, and nonsense by any reasonable interpretation.
>|> 
>|> Some people (not you obviously) value the idea of a group that attempts
>|> as best as it can to select members from the segment of society that 
>|> is considered "intelligent".  That testing is an imperfect criterion for
>|> such selection is unfortunate, but being willing to live with that known
>|> imperfection says nothing about us as members.  Nor does it imply
>|> anything about our attitude to those whom we individually recognize as 
>|> intelligent despite scores that fall short of the statistical norms.
>
>"Richard":
>
>MENSA is simply one more dangerous way in which one group of people 
>attempt to set themselves apart -- and by 'apart' one invariably finds 
>'superior', since few people desire to join an organization which claims 
>its members are 'inferior' -- from the rest of the populace.  Of such 
>'harmless' little groups are born the divisive philosophies which feed 
>nationalism, racism, and separate us from each other.

You may be right about that.  It's a colossal generalization on your
part, but it may be right in this particular instance.  I guess I
don't really care, tho', since I find it positive for me.  And certainly
more positive than the alternative.  Kind of like the separatism 
and inequality in women having separate, cleaner restrooms.

GMS
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t-- Re: t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:38:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.225216.108@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
> 
> 
> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> |> > You're not more intelligent; you simply scored higher on a test
> |> > whose validity is questionable.
> |> 
> |> A contention that you continually repeat, but always fail to prove.
> 
> You want proof?  You got it :)
> 
> Alfred Binet, the creator of one of the IQ tests (which was misinterpreted
> and exploited in the US to become the "Stanford-Binet") insisted on three 
> cardinal principles for using IQ tests:  
> 
> 1.  The tests are a practical device; they do not buttress any
>     theory of intellect.  They do not define anything innate or
>     permanent.  We may not designate what they measure as "intelligence"
>     or any other reified entity.
> 
> 2.  The scale is a rough, empirical guide for identifying mildly
>     retarded and learning-disabled children who need special help.  It
>     is NOT A DEVICE FOR RANKING NORMAL CHILDREN.
> 
> 3.  Whatever the cause of difficulty in children identified for help,
>     emphasis shall be placed on improvement through special training.
>     LOW SCORES SHALL NOT BE USED TO MARK CHILDREN AS INNATELY INCAPABLE.
> 
> (from S. Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man", 1986)

That book has been discredited; and many people here have shown you that
fact.  Why do you continue to use it as a reference?

>      "The scale, properly speaking, does not permit the measure
>      of intelligence, because intellectual qualities are not
>      superposable, and therefore cannot be measured as linear
>      surfaces are measured..."
>
> (Alfred Binet, writing in 1905)

And everything now is the same as it was in 1905, right?

> By your own standards, I am a "very intelligent" person with the scores to 
> prove it.  But I do not fool myself into believing that high scores on ANY 
> test are a mark of anything except good performance on ONE test, in ONE
> instance.  I intend to prove my worth in the real world.  I will not be one 
> who uses a standardized test to prove my worth in the midst of failure and 

Neither do we.

> Also, I'd to question the hilarious comment in MENSA books that MENSA is 
> indicative of some kind of "table" where ethnicity and race make no 
> difference.  I will not deny the "table" part, but...

Go ahead and question it.  So far, you haven't been able to prove that it
is false.  Your high intelligence does you no good so long as you refuse
to open your mind to anything that contradicts your preconceived notions.

"A mind is a terrible thing to close."
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh@draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: Doubters Of Astrology
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 05:14:55 GMT

>From: Young-Kyu Yoo <yoo@netcom.com>
>Message-id: <3a+p+p+.yoo@netcom.com>
>
>I'm not a member of Mensa, though I do have the test scores to qualify
>(1580 SATs, perfect PSATs).  I have a degree in mathematics (pure as opposed
>to applied) from the U. of Chicago.  I am also an amateur astrologer.

Have you applied probability and statistics in full context in evaluating
astrology?  I've often found that "amazing coincidences" have more to do
with the power of selective human observation than supernatural causes.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Subject: t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Originator: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 22:28:47 GMT


ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
|> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
|> >This is no definitive study here, but I have known enough people over enough 
|> >time from enough places that a pattern is quite clear: MENSA is considered 
|> >insignificant and ridiculous. Why should this be so?
|> 
|> There are too few Mensans, and Mensa is not seen as more than a social club.
|> "Geniuses are weird" and the public is given to think of them as 'other' and
|> mere curiosities.
|> 
|> Mensans are very smart people who are in most other respects, very much like
|> everyone else - good, bad & ugly.

"Eric":

You're not more intelligent; you simply scored higher on a test
whose validity is questionable.

--
Scott Tai -- tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
NCSU Artificial Intelligence Lab
Centennial Campus
From: nick+@pitt.edu (Nick C De Mello)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Doubters Of Astrology
Date: 4 Oct 92 23:23:58 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


>So what is Occam's Razor, again?

  Occam's razor is a philosophical tool suggested by William Ockham, if
I remember right.  Essentially, he suggested that if you allow a new
theory to introduce new postulates, then there are an infinite number
of equally valid theories.  Example, a rock could fall straight down
because of gravity, or we could postulate that rocks choose to fall
straight down because they are afraid of heights.

  So he suggested his tool: the theory that requires the least amount
of postulates, or the least fantastic postulates, is most likely to
be the best model for reality.  That's paraphrased.

                        -- Nick

                          (Carpricorn, Capricorn rising)

-- 
   _/   _/  _/  _/_/_/   _/   _/                 "Take 'em Easy"
  _/_/ _/  _/  _/   _/  _/_/_/
 _/ _/_/  _/  _/       _/ _/                    Nicholas C de Mello
_/   _/  _/   _/_/_/  _/   _/                     Nick+@pitt.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: seb@draper.com (Steve Bacher)
Subject: Separatism
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 04:03:12 GMT

Someone who shall remain nameless writes:

>This brings up a not wholly unrelated issue.  Our friends at UNC-Chapel
>Hill are demanding a Black Cultural Center.  Critics insist the center
>will constitute a return to the "separate but equal" days.  Whaddya think?

I expect great hot flame on this topic.  Having seen much that is similar
generate great controversy, I realized some time ago that our society
follows this simple principle:

If an "oppressed" group has a separate or exclusive resource or entity,
that is OK.  If an "oppressing" group does, that is not OK.

Thus we can have women's consciousness raising groups, black cultural
centers, gay hot lines, etc., etc.  However, white supremacist socities
and men-only clubs are not acceptable (oops, excuse typo in above line).

I'm not condoning or condemning.  That's the apparent guiding principle.
Once you understand this, there's no point in wasting precious energy
in a Constitutional argument over each instance of this issue.

 - seb
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: not@ailab.ncsu.edu (N O Tai)
Subject: Re: Muchow D.: About Nothing
Originator: not@ailab.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: not@ailab.ncsu.edu (N O Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:37:28 GMT


Hi.  I guess an introduction is in order--I'm Scott's dad, and
Scott has just showed me how to post to these newsfiles.  While 
Scott is out of town for a while, I decided to learn how to use 
this system.  I'm not actually a Mensa member, but I do know about 
the organization.

A user recently posted a confounding conundrum!  (Kids, remember
to wear those conundrums, okay?)

It went something like this:

A barber shaves everyone who does not shave him(or her)self, and does not
shave anyone who does shave him(/her)self.

First of all, let me say that the him/her is unnecessary, you politically
correct wannabee!  How many women shave their faces, which is the service
barbers generally perform, at least where I'm from?  With that aside,
the answer is obvious.  The barber has a beard, and hence does not shave.
Another possible answer is that the barber is a eunuch, and cannot grow
a beard.  One should note that in today's society, this is probably 
unlikely.

A user in that beautiful country, the Netherlands, writes the
following:

In my view the way American politicians (either side) try to sell 
themselves by devaluating their opponents is absolutely ridiculous. But 
when I see the audience on a "Oprah Winfrey Show" (that reached The 
Netherlands through Luxembourg) I can understand it. I often get the 
impression that Oprah's audience are imported from the Middle Ages. I 
hope they aren't a good sample of "Americans in general".

I agree with the statement about the degeneration of the US political
campaign process in theory, but in actuality, smear campaigning is 
largely effective, so similar tactics will continue to be used.  As far 
as the Oprah television show, although I've never seen the show, I believe
it's videotaped in Chicago, and that would go a great ways towards
explaining the audience.

Dr. N.O. Tai

  
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: yaros@sab57.larc.nasa.gov (Steve Yaros)
Subject: Famous Mensans 
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 12:39:39 GMT

All right...at the risk of boring you all with repetition, this card-carrying
Mensan would like to ask for the names of famous Mensans.  I was asked for
this info and came up with a near blank.

-- 
                           |                                                   
    Steve from Norfolk     | ...be aware that a walk through the river of most           
 yaros@sab57.nasa.larc.gov | people's souls would scarcely get your feet wet...
      804-864-3050         |                                  Deteriorata 1977
___________________________|____________________________________________________
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Famous Mensans
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:34:10 GMT

In article <2OCT92.13562763@meena.cc.uregina.ca>, wicks@meena.cc.uregina.ca writes:
> 
> In article <quam@hana.cs.ucla.edu(David Quam) writes
> <Try Isaac Asmov, who is (or used to be)International Chair of Mensa.
> <If Isaac Asimov, a genious by any standard, thought it was worthwhile
> <to join Mensa etc.
> Isaac Asimov, if I remember right was never the Chair of International
> Mensa. He was honorary vice president of Mensa.
> As to other famous Mensans, how about Dr. Wubbo Ockels the Dutch
> astronaut, who will be one of the speakers at the first international
> Mensa meeting to be held in Flevehof Netherlands at the end of this
> month.

Another is Theodore Bikel.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: billmcc@seanews.akita.com (Bill McCormick)
Subject: Re: Geneticism
Organization: SEANEWS - Seattle Public Access News & Mail
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:01:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.143437.26233@ncsu.edu> not@ailab.ncsu.edu (N O Tai) writes:
> [lots of good stuff deleted]
>
>Whereas the reaction of a reasonable person to homosex might be, "oh, that's 
>interesting", as in watching two women if the watcher is hetero; or two men, 
>if the watcher is hetero, it might be, "wheee, then there's more women for 
>me", instead you present us with your dark shit and ask us to tolerate your 
>intolerance. Nothing doing.

Very nicely put.  It's amazing how much hypocrisy shows up when
people discuss homosexuality.

Is it possible?  I actually agree 100% with something "Tai" writes?  Maybe
I've been away too long.

Bill
-- 
SEANEWS  []  Seattle News + Mail  []  Public Access  []  +1 206 937 9529
E-mail for PGP key.   MD5 (no sigs) is: 8e253e95133365a292261c7d0da58bcb
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas)
Subject: Re: t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 00:21:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.221718.10324@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>This claim of joining MENSA for social reasons has always sounded hollow. 
>First, any area large enough for a MENSA chapter will also have any number 
>of other clubs, and any interest club on an intellectual subject will be 
>overloaded with intelligent people. Second, unless one is a gross 
>underachiever, anyone bright enough to qualify for MENSA will be 
>surrounded by intelligent people at college or at work. 

OH REALLY???  Come visit my home town.  :)

-- 
John Mechalas                                          "I'm not an actor, but
mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu                                 I play one on TV."
Aero Engineering, Purdue University                     #include disclaimer.h
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: rec.org.high-iq.misc?
Date: 28 Sep 92 15:35:19 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Sep27.125020.5036@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA) writes:
>
>>side and operates in Brute Force mode. Check out talk.abortion, where 
>>one of the sides is outnumbered 10-1 in terms of volume of posters, and 
>>the majority merely shouts down the minority opinion. Maybe rationale 
>>and reasoning will count with at least some people here (!)
>
>Well, so far as abortion is concerned I hope it's 10:1 in favor of
>the right to have one. Because I'm not interested in seeing it get
>discussed as an abstract idea, when women are suffering . . .
>in this case, count me as a partisan, DEADLY.

This, like many issues in society that are hotly debated, is not
nearly so simple as you've implied here.  There are assumptions
that are made by both sides that are not only very significant,
but currently impossible to prove, and must be taken on faith.
Given the veracity of these assumptions, either side could be
right.

>
>Yea, let's keep this place nice cozy & warm.

To hell with that!  :-)

>(I know, I know, who invited *this* asshole.

We all have a little asshole within, yearning to breathe free.

>- see, Mensans are not unidimensional - or then trivial either.)

I've been known to wax trivial now and then.

>
>:) ecsd (:

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Personal to gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 03:24:14 GMT

In article <15260@claris.com> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.000245.18568@ncsu.edu>, mai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Mai Tai) writes:
>> Gilbert:
>> 
>> If I were to guess, I'd say that you are having great difficulty.  
[....]
>> supply for salaried workers.
>
>Get a life, Tai.  You're as funny as a rubber crutch in a polio ward.

I apologize that I was occupied with other things and could not find
time to respond to the first post.

Scott, thanks very much for this example.  This gives me the opportunity
to show you what I mean.  Now, what you've done here is repost my
article with the names changed around.  Now, if this strikes you
as humorous in some way, I think we've found the problem.  Please,
please show my original article and this one to an unbiased party
where you work, or, better yet, to a family member.  Ask them what
they think of it.

I'm betting that they will tell you it's not humorous or creative
or useful.  If this is the case, think about what others are
thinking about you or your program or whatever as they read it.
Then you're freeing yourself to post our own articles.  Of course,
I have to assume that a person is using a simple pattern-matching
program to post this stuff.  I can't begin to imagine a real
human making these mistakes, obviously.

Hey, consider it.  Worse things have happened.  I think Eric
was pretty nice to you and your text-submission program and such,
even considering that he's a fairly new exposure to your postings.

Later, buddy.  It's not all black and despair when you've got
your friends on ROM.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: shrum@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Rick Shrum)
Subject: Re: T/T: Statistics - rec.org.mensa most prolific posters!
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr, Calif.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 22:47:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep23.153523.26157@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>
>
>-------------------------------
>Scott Tai -- tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
>North Carolina State University
>Artificial Intelligence Systems
>-------------------------------
>  


Well, I'm just doing my quarterly check to see if Scott Tai has gotten a
life yet, and the answer is still a resounding NO! 
Scotty, why have you chosen dissing MENSA your personal crusade? 
Whats your next project, trying to get the NAACP to integrate?
Sheesh dude, yer lacking.
YEE-HAWWW!!!!!



                            R ****
                             I
                              C
                          **** K	

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: wiegand@rtsg.mot.com (Robert Wiegand)
Subject: Re: t// t// Re: T/ Re: T% Thought for the Day
Reply-To: motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: "world"
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:02:15 GMT

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:


>mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas) writes:
>|> Of course!  After all, we are all CLONES of one another, and we're all
>|> EXACTLY ALIKE so therefore we should all BE alike.  What a great idea!
>|> No individuality!  I love it!

>Well... we already knew all engineers are exactly alike!

Not true!

There are electrical engineers, mecahnical engineers, civil engineers,
etc. Of course within each group we are pretty much interchangable.

Big :-)


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Wiegand - Motorola Inc.
motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net            uunet!motcid!wiegand
Disclamer: I didn't do it - I was somewhere else at the time.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: yjossa@mathlab.sunysb.edu (yuri jossa)
Subject: Re: T% Thought for the Day
Organization: SUNY at Stony Brook, Dept. of Math
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 07:14:43 GMT
X-Posted-From: mathlab-gw.pi.sunysb.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Sep23.230030.15918@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>
>
>"'Standardized tests' are the greatest single barrier to
>equal opportunity for disadvantaged groups, at least in
>the sphere of education.  Minorities who get into higher
>education generally do so despite tests, not because of
>them..."  
>

Sorry to disagree! but "standarized tests" are not a barrier
at all for us 'disavantaged groups' (despite my name I am a minority)
there is no barriers but the ones the invidual makes..
there are obstacles... but no barriers.
A lot of 'minorities' get into higher education because
of the dreaded "standarized tests" so why are they a barrier?
because most of the 'minorities' do not do well in them?
the tests are just tools, people should be blamed for the
educational problems in this nation not the SAT 's etc.

yjossa@mathlab.sunysb.edu 
American Mensa.

>	--James Loewen, testifying before Congress in 1979.
>
>--			
>Scott Andrew Tai		Wanna see my ID?
>tai@ailab.ncsu.edu		Try to clip my wings!
>NCSU AI Laboratory		I don't have to show you proof of anything.
>Centennial Campus		I know the law, friend.   --Romeo Delight
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t// Re: T/T: Statistics - rec.org.mensa most prolific posters!
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:28:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.220208.3824@eos.arc.nasa.gov>, shrum@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Rick Shrum) writes:

> Scott,
> 
> Well, at least I see your speech patterns are improving!
> Nah, dissing you ain't my personal crusade; more like a
> hobby. Actually, I am genuinly (sp? - I'm no MENSAN!)
> interested in why you hate MENSA so. No BS; really. Why?
> And why do you carry in on for so long? I care.
> Get MIKE STEINER to quit posting? No way, I enjoy a good
> Steiner Liner ( ;^]   to MS ).

LOL.  I gotta get back on that other newsgroup; I've been
away from it for two long.  BTW, have you heard that they
are going to follow Ric's and Hall's lead, and are going
to join Vince?  I heard that Arn is also going to do that.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jswthomp@milton.u.washington.edu (James Thompson)
Subject: Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:24:15 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.071855.20273@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>>This is no definitive study here, but I have known enough people over enough 
>>time from enough places that a pattern is quite clear: MENSA is considered 
>>insignificant and ridiculous. Why should this be so?
>
>There are too few Mensans, and Mensa is not seen as more than a social club.
>"Geniuses are weird" and the public is given to think of them as 'other' and
>mere curiosities.

Hold it.  Reality check time.

According to many of the posts I've seen here, by Mensans defending the fact
that Mensa doesn't accomplish anything, Mensa IS nothing more than a social
club.  If you want to be considered significant, you have to DO something
significant.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with being a social club.  People need
social clubs.  Even if they're smart.  [Even if they're weird.]  It's just a
little silly to get defensive when somebody says that that's all Mensa is.
What do you want it to be?

Jim
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t// Re: Meaning of Intelligence
Date: 6 Oct 92 06:31:42 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct6.032415.126@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>
>gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
>|> Now, if someone is a legitimate moron, clinically speaking, 
>|> they can't help it.
>
>Yeah.  So get off Mike Steiner's back :)
>

I am reminded of Newton's quote regarding the "shoulders of giants".

Please be more explicit, as it is tempting to interpret these
statements you make as unflattering to yourself, and I'm certain
you don't mean them that way.  Hope this helps.

Thanks for your posts clearing some of this up, BTW.

Later, buddy.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa