From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Subject: Re: Washer,Dryer,Fridge & Stove All At Once!
Organization: OSF Research Institute
	<1993Jan6.191941.12485@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
	<1993Jan7.134647.6196@crd.ge.com>
	<1993Jan7.185206.25924@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:02:03

In article <1993Jan7.185206.25924@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis) writes:

   I wouldn't dream of buying a Miele cooking appliance.

Agreed.  If you want luxury cooking appliances, look at Gaggenau.  The
prices are just as outrageous, though.  Seriously, though, the only
Gaggenau appliance that actually seems to present a serious advantage
over other brands is their built-in deep fryer.  Still, it costs about
$700.  Too much for me.

   Their washing machines, however, are wonderful. Lowest water and
   energy use of any brand in the world;

Miele certainly has an excellent reputation.  Other European brands
may not be quite as bullet-proof, but do you really want to spend the
extra money to have a washer that lasts 50 years?  The advantage of
all the European brands (AEG, Asea, etc.) is that they are
good-quality front-loaders.  They wash more gently than top-loaders,
and use much less water and energy (the differences among these brands
aren't really significant).  On the other hand, most of them heat
their own water electrically, which, although it gives more precise
temperature control (and some claim better cleaning because it avoids
cooking in stains), gives a longer cycle and vitiates much of the
advantage of higher energy efficiency (since gas-heated water costs
about a third of electric-heated water).  They also start at about
twice the price of US brands, and generally have smaller capacities.
White-Westinghouse also makes a front loader, which in the past has
had a very bad reputation.

When we looked at the prices for European washers, we decided to buy a
cheaper American appliance ($400 instead of $900).  But we regret it:
the European ones wash better, partly because of better temperature
control and partly because the horizontal drum is gentler on clothes.

One thing that strikes me as simply absurd in the American models is
that hot/warm/cold are simply mixing ratios, with no thermostatic
control!!

   As far as refridgerators and freezers go, Subzero are about the best
   of the regular-construction set, being built significantly better than
   most other brands. This means better insulation, no rear vent space,
   more rigid metalwork, better hinges, etc. This doesn't always
   translate into lowest energy use, although in our case (we have
   undercounter units), the trade-off between longevity of the Subzero's
   and the tackiness of all other available options made the former a
   clear win.

Agreed that Subzero are very good refrigerators.  However, again, they
are about twice the price of the next-best alternative, namely Amana.
They definitely consume more energy than Amana.  Another stupidity in
the ordinary American appliances: you can't build them in properly
(with a door looking like a regular cabinet door).  This is standard
in middle-quality European fridges (but they are much smaller).

   Sun Frost are a different ballgame: upwards of $2000 for the smallest
   unit. However, they use 10% of the electricity of a normal unit, and
   will generally pay back in about 10 years subect to your grid
   location. 

Subject also to the cost of money.  Payback periods are often quoted
assuming 0% interest rates.  A payback period of 10 years at 0%
interest corresponds to a payback period of 21 years at 8%
interest... assuming of course no additional maintenance costs.

   As for ranges and ovens, I'm a big fan of decent commercial style
   ranges;  our Viking gives us a stove that we will probably never have
   to replace 

Yes, this is the one place we splurged.  We got a Vulcan restaurant
range.  A standard domestic range costs < $1000, a Vulcan 48" wide
restaurant range about $2000, and a "restaurant-style" about $4000.  I
got this mainly to get a large oven and 20,000 BTUH burners (as
opposed to the 10,000 BTUH on standard home ranges or the 15,000 BTUH
on restaurant-style ranges).  Of course, this requires a good fan,
too.

	-s
Newsgroups: misc.consumers