HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_ (bunch O' Kaka anyway)
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: Amiga GRn V1.29 4/10/92 (Beta) by Mike Schwartz
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:14:48 PST
Organization: Amiga makes it possible

In article <1992Apr14.175326.3341@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>>
>>The way to do the benchmarks is to code them in hand crafted assembly.  That
>>way, the quality of the 'C' compiler does NOT come into play.  The same coder
>>should do both programs.
>>
>
>You've got to be joking.  The 486 code should be written by an expert in
>486 assembly language, and vice versa.  Otherwise, the coder's preferences
>will easily show in the results.
>

Anyone who codes in assembly will have NO problem optimizing the assembly
language for either machine.  An expert in assembly language knows all
machines pretty well.

>What's wrong with using GNU C, for more of a "real world" comparison?

GNU C doesn't necessarily have equivalent code generators for the two chips.
There is likely to be more work done on the 8088 code generator, if there
are more Unixes running on 8088 platforms.

>
>>
>>The above test will show how the shuffling of registers makes a difference.
>>
>
>Since you haven't conducted the experient, isn't your conviction premature?

I AM an expert on both CPUs.  I know what to expect.  BTW, Motorola and Intel
have already had their best coders do up benchmarks.  The results:

25MHz 486 = 15 MIPS
25MHz 040 = 20 MIPS

--
Author of Amiga GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle,
and Genesis Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024
From: peterk@public.sub.org (Peter Kittel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 040 and 486 and nap42487 knows nothing about CPUs.
Date: 16 Apr 92 07:52:22 GMT
Organization: Public News & Mailserver, Commodore Germany PM UNIX, Frankfurt

jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:

>>When you ever have programmed
>>Intel and Motorola (or MOS) processors both in assembler and don't get
>>this strong impression, then you must come from another planet.
>>			      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Wow.  For a man of your education, a PhD, your attitude sure is arrogant.

Well, I always *try* to be polite, but I don't always succeed.

Yes, I really bash on Intel, I have very bad experiences with their
design, and this I reported. And I got the impression that this opinion
is shared by all people I know that come from the same experience,
having programmed both brands. Why on earth is that arrogant?

It appears more to me that you yourself don't really know much about
all this stuff, so I would recommend you to check your wording and your
real knowledge about the subject a bit better in future before posting.

Thanks for listening.

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to  \\  Only my personal opinions... 
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
                                   or  peterk@public.sub.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: pss1@kepler.unh.edu (Paul S Secinaro)
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_ (bunch O' Kaka anyway)
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 11:26:39 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.003149.29648@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Nishith A. Patel) writes:

>>The way to do the benchmarks is to code them in hand crafted assembly.  That
>>way, the quality of the 'C' compiler does NOT come into play.  The same coder
>>should do both programs.
>
>>The above test will show how the shuffling of registers makes a difference.
>
>If they are in assembly language, we have to use two programmers. One who
>specializes in the 68k line, and one who specializes in the 486 line. If
>we used one programmer, which one would he develop better code for, the
>one he is better at or the one he is worse at? 

Also, you'd probably need an impartial judge or panel of judges to
examine the code and make sure nobody uses any cute "tricks" to make
the benchmark run faster.  What constitutes a "trick" would, of
course, be a matter for debate.  For starters, you might say a "trick"
would be anything that a typical, good quality compiler _wouldn't_
normally generate.


Paul
-- 
Paul Secinaro            | Synthetic Vision and Pattern Analysis Lab
pss1@kepler.unh.edu      | Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering
p_secinaro@unhh.unh.edu  | University of New Hampshire
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:    Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom" ?
Distribution: world
Date: 8 Apr 92 21:58:32 EST
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <1992Apr6.195635.10380@ms.uky.edu> justin@graphlab.cc.uky.edu  (Justin Sullivan) writes:
>Rick Kelly writes
>> Apple literature describes A/UX as being SVR2 in it's literature.  Are you
>> saying that they lie about it?.  And posters on comp.unix.aux talk about
>> things that are missing that were included in SVR3.  POSIX has been around
>> for at least four years.  VMS is very close to being POSIX compliant.
>
>A/UX 3.0 is *SVR4*.

Perhaps.  But that secret is being kept very quiet in comp.unix.aux.

And I still say "kludge" when I see a system that has to boot UNIX from
another OS.  In order to use A/UX you have to boot MacOS, and launch
A/UX from there.  It must be hell doing autoboot after a power outage.

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: borres@aix.rpi.edu (Steven D. Borrelli)
Subject: Re:  The Under $10K Unix Workstation!
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 15:28:45 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.114450.22359@nic.unh.edu> pss1@kepler.unh.edu (Paul S Secinaro) writes:
>In article <p9ztbrc@rpi.edu> borres@aix.rpi.edu (Steven D. Borrelli) writes:
>
>>
>>After paying lic. fees to AT&T and Adobe, UNIX is going to be expensive. 
>>Price Commodore's UNIX offering or any other one (like AU/X).
>
>
>I think it's more a function of volume.  A UNIX license costs, what,
>$100K or so?  That's not a lot of money for a large company.  IBM
>spent hundreds of millions on OS/2 2.0 (maybe billions), and you can
>buy a copy for $49 (Windows upgrade price).
>
>I don't see why there couldn't be a good UNIX package for $200 or less
>(for any theoretical machine for which sufficient demand exists).  Or
>does AT&T charge a per-copy royalty?  That might be a problem.
>
>Paul
>
I don't know how the royalty scheme goes, but I think the last few posts
have shown that UNIXes are generally expensive. Commodore's offering is
$1300 (a good deal since it comes with source for the drivers), NeXT will
start at $1000, Solaris is $795 (I think it will be more if you want 
the compiler). If price is based on volume, it is pretty obvious that
there isn't much demand for UNIX out there.  

My original point (responding to R. Kelly) was that the NeXT/486 OS,
while expensive, was not that out of line when compared to other unixes.
While I'd love to see a cheap UNIX out there, the only place I can 
see it happening is in the PC world, with its huge installed base. 



-- 
Steven D. Borrelli                
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute '92                  
borres@rpi.edu  (NeXTmail)
From: lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:48:55 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Apr13.200531.17506@ctr.columbia.edu>, jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:

Oops, Sorry Jerry - I have not asked you any questions. It was Nish I was
thinking when I wrote some of the last message.

--
Jarkko Lindblad
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Re: Game machines and such
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 08:01:02 GMT

dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson) writes:
>Norman St. John Polevaulter <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>A given, considering that it's a computer. Still, our games ARE cheaper...
>
>No they are NOT!  Jesus Christ, they want around *$60* each for SNES games
>at the local Toys R Us the last time I looked! Mail-order games are MUCH
>cheaper for PCs, and assumed so for Amigas.

I believe he meant Amiga games are cheaper.  "Our" probably refers to us
Amiga users since this is an Amiga newsgroup.  I hope this is what he
meant.

>Commodore needs to advertise (ooh! what an
>idea! I've _never_ heard *that* complaint on this nwsgroup before! :-P
>).

True, true.

>>The situation's quite familiar. C='s low-end stuff tends to be
>>unbeatable wrt bang-for-the-buck; C='s high-end stuff is admittedly
>>somewhat overpriced, assuming you're the sort of person who buys
>^^^^^^^^^
>Well, more that just 'somewhat'.  GOOD 486s can be had for well less
>than the 68030 A3000.  depends on what you want to do with your
>computer, of course.  Re: Obscurity of Amigas, above.

Yes, I believe Commodore's high-end Amiga is overpriced.  If I were to
purchase a high-end Amiga setup, however, I would not purchase Commodore's
setup.  I would get an A2000/040.

>>Assuming the A600 ultimately settles to an excellent price like $250, that
>>is. (I wouldn't be surprised to see it start around $500 just to grab anyone
>>who's actually willing to pay that price, but ideally it should be at
>>$250 by Christmas. Come on, Commodore, you can do it...)
>
>One thing C= NEEDS to do is pump out LOTS of games as SOON as possible
>when the A600 come out.  It is to survive as a game machine, it'll need
>that to cope with the 100's of cartridges out for the Genesis, SNES,
>etc.

I think advertising would help more than this.  The Amiga does have lots
of games, but people see SNES and Genesis advertised on television every
day.  They buy what they see.  I am not too interested in the success of
the A600, though.  Truthfully, I would rather see Commodore forced to sell
the Amiga line to a company that would market the system.

-- Gerald
From: lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Jarkko "knows" 040's faster than 486.
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:00:15 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

> Oh, and I suppose you know better.  All that benchmarking stuff people do
> is just a waste of time, right?  Jarkko knows buest, I guess.

Yep. I know everything :)

>>68040 instrucions are in average perhaps 30-50% faster than equivalent 486
>>instrcutions while instruction set on both is comparable.
>>
> 
> Let's see proof for this.  BTW, the instruction sets are *not* comparable

I'll try to find it. however some proof was posted a couple of months ago to
the net (not the one I've quoted).

>>68040 has 8 general purpouse registers and 7 general purpouse data registers
>>(all 32 bit). Didn't 486 have 2 *general purpouse* registers and several
>>others? That means more register shuffle on 486.
> 
> It doesn't mean "more register shuffle".  It means a wholly different
> approach to using the registers.  Some frequently-used instructions,
> for example, may change the values of three different registers; on a
> Moto, this would require extra instructions.


Examples please. I'm too drunk to try to rewad much in English.
Why would it mean more intructions on Moto?

>>68040 has copyback mode on it's data cache.
>>
> This *is* a valid point.

True.

--
Jarkko Lindblad
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi
From: mike@maths.tcd.ie (Mike Rogers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom" ?
Date: 4 Apr 92 20:35:08 GMT
Organization: Sometimes found in a quite disorganized state in Trinity College
              Dublin. Freedom==Anarchy. My opinions are, like my total lack of
              organization, entirely my own fault.

In article <1992Mar31.135655.9663@ms.uky.edu>, justin@mik.uky.edu (Justin Sullivan) wrote:
>Apple will ship in excess of 2 million THIS YEAR ALONE. Last year, Apple's  

And how many of them are B&W Classics?

>average NET REVENUES were $1.86 BILLION *PER QUARTER*. Who's catching up with  

By this logic, the Intel camp wins outright. Now, do you agree with that?
-- 
Mike Rogers,Box 6,Regent Hse,##EveryoneHasTheRightToFreedomOfOpinionAndExpressio
TCD,EIRE. <mike@maths.tcd.ie>##nThisRightIncludesFreedomToHoldOpinionsWithoutInt
###############################erferenceAndToSeekReceiveAndImpartInformationAndI
deasThroughAnyMediaAndRegardlessOfFrontiers...#10 UN Declaration of Human Rights
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:11906 comp.sys.amiga.games:6550 comp.sys.amiga.misc:8107 comp.sys.amiga.multimedia:773 comp.sys.amiga.graphics:3451 comp.sys.amiga.hardware:8423
From: mohrc@nyssa.CS.ORST.EDU
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.games,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.graphics,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Considering switching to IBM
Date: 6 Apr 92 09:11:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: CS.1992Apr06.091120.9752
Organization: CS Dept. Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon.

In article <1992Apr6.035446.15509@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Nishith A. Patel) writes:
>Once again, I do not know how my follow ups are going to other groups besides
>advocacy, but anyway:
>
PLEASE STOP THIS STUPID THREAD!!! its getting VERY annoying wading through
this junk in c.s.a.games, hardware, graphics etc.

DO NOT USE F or f to followup to this thread anymore if you do it gets posted 
to ALL of these groups automatically:
comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.games,comp.sys.amiga.misc,
comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.graphics,comp.sys.amiga.hardware

This is because of the orginal IDIOT that posted it to all these groups ALL
followup continue to all original groups if you MUST continue this DONT FOLLOWUP
post an ORIGINAL message from your machine into advocacy (using Pnews or some
other program)
>P.S. If I find out how to direct these things to advocacy only, I will do so.

NOW YOU DO!

thanks 
From: jgm@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (John McBride--in my own private Idaho)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 16:34:26 GMT
Subject: Re: EISA vs. ZorroIII
Organization: HP-Boise, ID
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy

>Here are the facts...
>
>EISA will go quite fast, as in 32 MHz, until you plug in one of the old AT
>bus cards that are so common.  The standard speed for the ISA (AT) bus is
>8.3 MHz.  Many ISA systems have the option of running the bus faster than
>that, but they can't go too much faster, or all those common things like VGA
>cards, I/O cards and HD controllers stop working.

The EISA has a peak bandwidth of 33Mbytes/second, and the data clock (the
BCLK signal) runs at a maximum of 8.33Mbytes/second.  The best EISA
can do is a Type "C" burst transfer, which is a 32 bit transfer each BCLK cycle.
ISA can only transfer 16 bits at a time, and it does not have a mode
where it can transfer data each clock cycle.  

I have a copy of the EISA spec if you would like to discuss this topic further.

John McBride
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene)
Subject: Re:  C= policy (Re: Apple problems "Home computer")
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 02:05:25 GMT


> It's shakeout time in the PC clone world.  The cheap clone companies that
> can't live with the low margins will go out of business, and then the bottom
> end prices will rise back to a more normal level.
> 
> 
> --
> Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.
> 

	I little shake up wouldn't hurt in my opinion.  But I think your wrong
  about prices ever rising.  Amd is cloning the 486 and Intel is going to re-
  lease the 586 this year ( well, maybe ) this will cause prices on all the 
  lower CPU's to drop even more.  

							G.Greene
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: Wild rumor, potential for massive sea change in Amiga world...
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:16:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.173411.10287@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> aa399@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Len Stys) writes:
>By Winter, Atari will be offering everything that the Amiga has anyways.

   By winter, Commodore should have finally announced their new systems
(if the rumors are correct).  I don't expect to be too wild about them, but
they should be enough to marginally beat the new Atari systems.

>:en
>-- 

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
       <Insert your favorite one-liner here>
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom" ?
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:49:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: Xenon.torrie.702751740
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU

justin@mik.uky.edu (Justin Sullivan) writes:

>>     So Apple actually say "A/UX 3.0 is SVR4", do they (seriously, I don't
>>     know - I _thought_ they didn't say that about any A/UX)?
>> 
>This is getting silly.. For the same reason no other SVR4-UNIX has "SVR4" in  
>it's name. IRIX 4.0.x doesn't. Solaris doesn't. AmigaUNIX doesn't say "SVR4" in  
>it's name...

  It's getting especially silly because A/UX 3.0 is NOT SVR4.  Apple is
going the OSF/1 route, not SVR4, and is doing it with A/UX 4.0.  A/UX 3.0
is a cleaned-up, System 7.0 capable version of what they had in A/UX 2.0.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.                     NZ for the America's Cup!
From: mike@maths.tcd.ie (Mike Rogers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple problems "Home computer"
Date: 6 Apr 92 19:17:33 GMT
Organization: Sometimes found in a quite disorganized state in Trinity College
              Dublin. Freedom==Anarchy. My opinions are, like my total lack of
              organization, entirely my own fault.

In article <3416@tronsbox.UUCP>, tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (Kenneth Jamieson) wrote:
>	You know, I have been thinking about this a lot lately (what's
>that smoke ?) and have decided that C='s non announce policy is
>hurting more than it is helping.

Does the name Osbourne mean anything to you? 

Seriously though, suppose tomorrow C= were to announce the Amiga Plus line, say
030/040 based, varying configuration. Say they came with (hypothetical) AA 
32bit chipset giving 4 channel 16bit voice, 8bit hires and 24bit super HAM
graphics. Now, imagine how many 'old' Amigas they'd sell in the interim...
It was enough to sink Osbourne, it'd hurt C= badly.
-- 
Mike Rogers,Box 6,Regent Hse,##EveryoneHasTheRightToFreedomOfOpinionAndExpressio
TCD,EIRE. <mike@maths.tcd.ie>##nThisRightIncludesFreedomToHoldOpinionsWithoutInt
###############################erferenceAndToSeekReceiveAndImpartInformationAndI
deasThroughAnyMediaAndRegardlessOfFrontiers...#10 UN Declaration of Human Rights
From: gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commodore Takeover Imminent?
Date: 7 Apr 92 14:18:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: uwm.1992Apr7.141850.13598
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

mike@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Smithwick) writes:
: In article <sctconno.702090249@kraken> sctconno@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Dave Connors) writes:
: 
: [talk about a possible CA takeover]
: 
: >Now imagine if it were someone like Sun microsystems... *REAL* customer
: >support. *REAL* advertising. *sigh* I'm a dreamer.
: >
: 
: . . . yeah, with "real" consumer experience, and a "real" consumer 
: distribution channels, and "real" advertising in UNIX World. . .
: 
: Imagine what Sun's marketing would do for their Christmas campaign.
: 
: mike

It's simple:  They'd jack the price, give it a new OS look that makes
it look like a Sun's, market it, and watch it die because they're used
to selling Unix systems, not home computers.

Of course, this is just IMHO.  ;)

Greg
-- 
 __________________________________________________________________________
|				     The Chesterfield Electronic Towel (TM)|
|gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu                    Don't leave Krikkit without it!|
|__________________________________________________________________________|
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: sctconno@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Dave Connors)
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Date: 14 Apr 92 23:49:38 GMT

Sorry to put something in slightly off the thread, but what is copy-back
mode?

Thanks (whoever answers).

-- 
WARNING: people quota (/sol/earth) exceeded  | Dave Connors              //
Delete all IBM owners        ----------------  D.Connors@sct.gu.edu.au \X/
God# rm -R *.IBM.people     |  " My opinions may have changed, but the 
God#                        |        fact that I am right hasn't. "
From: espen@coos.dartmouth.edu (Espen H. Koht)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom"
Date: 9 Apr 92 03:52:34 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

rhealey@kas.helios.mn.org (Rob Healey) writes:

>In article <1992Apr1.001144.1642@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, espen@coos.dartmouth.edu (Espen H. Koht) writes:
>|> since the beginning of time almost.  Remember that Postscript and the Apple
>|> laserwriter used to be almost synonymous. It must be hard to admit that Amiga
>|> OS has a *driver* (wow!) for a technology which was basically pushed into the
>|> postion of leading font technology by Apple.
>|>   
>	Not hard at all. What happens to your seamless Mac when you put
>	an HP PCL printer or Epson 9 pin printer on it? The printing system
>	on the Amiga leaves it to a printer driver to decide how best to
>	render an image on paper.

   You've just described TrueType.


--
---------------------------------- Espen H. Koht ------------------------------
|  My opinions are shareware:            | espen@dartmouth.edu                |
|  If you like them send me $10.   ;-)   | espen@coos.dartmouth.edu           |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson)
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 02:28:39 GMT

jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:

>mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>>>
>>>Sorry to put something in slightly off the thread, but what is copy-back
>>>mode?
>>
>>Copyback mode is where some Amiga fan posts the truth and Jerry Shnekel
>							   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>selectively copies-back the article as he posts a bunch of hooey.
>>

>Nah, Copyback Mode is the course that Mike Schwartz has just enrolled in
>so that he can learn how to properly copy people's names into his cheap
>shot articles on c.s.a.a. when he can't think of any other way to save
>whatever bogus argument he had in the first place.

>>Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
>| Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
>|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
>|                            jerry@polygen.com                               |

PLEASE guys!
These types of posts are for alt.flame or debates on the alt.religion
newsgroups!

Well, then again, this _is_ .advocacy,....

Really, though, it does _nothing_ for the computers we're supposedly
'advocacting'. hee hee 

Dan
.


>+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
--
Daniel Anthony Stephenson, player of Praetorius, namer of The Solarium.
dano@srl01.cacs.usl.edu das9674@usl.edu
"I can be, what I want to, and all I need is to get my boogie
down"- Al Jarreau.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy