From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Lifestyle Choices and Secular Reasoning
Date: 4 Jan 93 16:43:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>>kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>>>"...the country founded upon atheism and a belief in man" is, ahem, was
>>>the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

>>This is also historically incorrect.  The "-ism" WRT the USSR is
>>attributable to Karl Marx.

>Greg, read your history.  the USSR was founded on Marxism-Leninism,
>which no one would ever say bore a great deal of resemblance to
>Marxism per se.  Even those who wish to make that argument will have 
>to make clear which Marx they want to talk about - the philosophy
>espoused before 1848 or after 1848?  Neither of which really resembled
>what Lenin claimed Marx said.  My original statement stands.

Your statement never stood.  You're trying to blame atheism for the
fall of the USSR.  The Jews, Christians, and Muslims who live/lived
there would be surprised.

>>>Indeed.  I've read Tom and Ben and George, et. al. 

>>Apparently you've not paid enough attention.  Read Andrew Jackson
>>while you're at it.  

>I wasn't aware Andy was a founding father.  I'll bet his mother's surprised.

Didn't say he was, now, did I?  However, he was one of the strongest
influences on our current political system.  

>>The First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religion doesn't imply
>>in the least a Christian foundation for our country.  In fact, it
>>specifically denies the possibility of the country having a single
>>religious influence.

>Pardon me, but did I say "Christian foundation"?  I did not.  I said
>"belief in God".  That is correct.  My original statement stands.

Your statement does _not_ stand.  You're simply repeating yourself on
this subject without providing evidence.  That doesn't make it true.

>>Jefferson more credit than he deserves.  His own religious beliefs
>>were in no way representative of the rest.  Andrew Jackson, Benjamin
>>Franklin, and George Washington are on record as being atheists.

>Andy was a little out of it to be a founding father.  

See above.

>The statements
>about Ben and George are egregiously wrong.  There's simply no other
>way to put it.

Check it out for yourself.  And please, feel free to post proof
positive that these two men were Christians.  I don't think you have
it, not do I think you can produce it.

I repeat:

>>Back it up or take it back.  I think you'll find very little religious
>>influence in the lives of most of those who wrote the Constitution.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
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