From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:45:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.184858.4587@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>Hal Ravn gives an accounting of the $25 dollars spent at Beltane, being
>site fee, and privies.  The site had showers, and a lake, and off-site
>parking.  He then asks:
>
>  What more does one need?

This posting supplied some of the answers I have lately asked Arval
for . . .

>Not much.  At Pennsic, what do you get?  Miles of ropes to divide the
>land up, as well as stakes to hold the ropes up.  Each road which runs
>between each area has a name, and is labelled with a road sign.

Roads were marked out at 10-day Beltane, and signs were put up.  Wood
stakes (surveyer's stakes?) are cheap . . .

>Message boards, and maps for the heralds to cry the encampment. 

Some message boards we had.  Maps, we didn't need.

>Rented
>tents for the heralds to run heraldic cry's, and consult in.

Here is a major difference.  Our Herlads *own* cover to work out of.
If additional consulting space is needed, it is usually done in Duke
Frederick's _BC_--or some other good sized sun-shade.

>Rented tents for the troll, 

There is a permanent gate-house at the site entrance.

>chirurgeons, 

There is a kingdom-owned Chirurgeons pavillion.

>newsletter, 

Done out of the Chronicler's own pavillion.

>information booth,

No particular need--but then, we didn't draw significant numbers of
outside populace or members of other groups.

>security, 

The Constabulary has a couple of sunshades.  One is used if there is
no suitable structure at the gate, and the other is used a
meeting place/lost&found site.

>archery fields, 

A rented tent for this?  Why?

>woods battle and field battle. 

Ditto.

>More tents for
>Arts and Sciences classes.  

We have lots of folks with suitable shelter for classes--and if a call
is made for volunteered space, sufficient is found.

>Supplies for the chirurgeons, as well as

Beltane wasn't a war, the normal supply system probably sufficed.

>a mobile trailer with running water and lights.

There is running water on site, plus many of us are in the habit of
fetching water to camp for uses like drinking and washing.

>Hundreds, if not thousands of water bottles, and water to fill them,
>and Sports Drink for the battles.  

At wars, the Kingdom Waterbearers (a minor office under the
Chirurgeonate) has a supply that we don't tend to run out of, plus
some individuals add more.

>Graded roads.  

So additional gravel was dumped on selected roads due to a major
late-season storm just before the event.  Being a smaller event
probably eliminated the need for roads that weren't already there.

>Hay Bales to make
>bridges and town battles.  

I don't recall that being a major expense at wars (if it were, I think
I'd've heard grumbling about it).

>Free parking.

Off-site parking areas were rented for the event.  On-site paring was
limited, but part of what we paid for the site.

>Set ups for hundreds of merchants, 

This implies that Pennsic pays the merchants for facilities they need.
(I understand that access is needed--but this implies something beyond
that.)  Does Pennsic pay for the tents the merchants use?  Why?  Isn't
that the merchants own problem to deal with?

>as well as a site book that contained
>a map of where each merchant was.  

We just tell 'em where the merchant area is and have somebody around
to settle disputes.  Just how oragnized do you guys get?

>Schedules printed in the books for
>Arts and Sciences classes, 

Let's see . . .  At most, perhaps 6 sides of xerography, at $0.05 per
side, that's $0.30 per person.  Still doesn't add up to much out of
the site fee.

>as well as electricty, 

Hodl it!  *Pennsic* is paying the electric bill?  Why?  Isn't that
part of your rental agreement with the Coopers?  (And for that
matter--how much electricty is being used for a *Medieval*
re-creation, anyway?)

>running water, 

Over and above the rental of the site?  You're already paying 4 times
what we did per head per night (and even *more* for the last weekend),
and you're paying for water on *top* of that?

>tables
>and chairs for the classes.

If you want something to sit on at a class--you bring your own chair.
If I were teaching a class, I could bring my own table, but in any
case, if there weren't tables there as part of the site, I can't see
*renting* them.

>A large Barn for evening use, with more tables, chairs, daises and so forth.

Okay.  I confess.  I'm part of a convention committee (we run
DunDraCon--typical attendence 1500-1800).  I realize that it's risky
to extrapolate from hotels to campgrounds, but in the convetion
business, the cost of 'convention facilities' depend on how many
people stay there for how long (room nights).  If there are
enough--the facilities aren't charged to the con.  Now here we have
8000 people staying for up to 2 weeks--most of them for at least 3 or
4 days.  You're telling me that on top of what I'd consider a rather
high fee for each prson staying, that the Autocrat is *paying* for use
of the fixed facilities, too?  You don't need a paid Autocrat--you
need a paid *negotiator*.  (Yo also need to find an alternate site so
you can demonstrate to the Coopers that there's a limit to
gullibility.)

>Security patrol, which had walkie talkies for them, 

West Kingdom owns 4 (which is enough for our needs).  We've got
refurbished police/fire models.

>the chirurgeons, and

I'll spot you this one.  It's a war.

>the autocrat.  

A radio?  Or other costs?  If other costs--what?

>Archery targets.  

There is some scaling here--but it's population proportional.  More
people, more butts needed.

>A mobile radio station for setup in
>the woods battles.  

Beyond a hand-held unit?

>Multiple emergency vehicles and crews for medical care
>during battles.  

Are the crews being paid by Pennsic?  Or are they just there if
needed?  (This one I won't argue with.  Having at least one ambulance
on site during any battle of that size is eminently practical, but the
stand-by fees should be subject to negotiation.)

>Miles of tape to tape off the woods battle.

What gets taped off besides the boundary and any resurrection points?

>What else did we get that I forgot?  I dunno.  We didn't *need* it,
>but there it was.

As I stated in my comments on Arval's posting, I think a lot of
Pennsic's costs show the difference between West and East.  Seeing
what you consider nice-to-have, I wonder if you should check to see if
it would be cost-effective to buy some of these things even if they're
only used once a year.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
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