From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Feminist Perspective of Batman Returns
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 00:09:30 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <poznikof.711851264@sfu.ca>, poznikof@fraser.sfu.ca (Kenneth Shane 
Poznikoff) writes:

first, my suggestion is that you see the film again.  There is clearly much
that you missed.  read on...

> For example, the cat woman:
> Yeah sure she is sexy but she also stands for women's liberation.  
> There is a conflict of ideologies.  This is not to say that liberated 
> women have to be bull dykes.  I think she represented some sort
> of males view of the liberation movement.  She is somehow sexy, psychotic,
> crazy and after revenge against men.  (Please read on before you
> cast judgement on these statements.)

Catwoman was not after revenge against "men" in general, just the one who
shoved her out of a window.
 
> Then when Cat Woman and Batman are fighting he ends up knocking her
> down and she says "How could you,  I'm a woman".  That is so pathetic.
> This sends out a very negative message about the women's movement.  If, 
> for a moment, we take the view that she represents a positive image of 
> woman (ie strong and powerful, knowing what she wants) this scene 
> completely negates all of her strong attributes.  She has reverted to 
> a meek stereotypical woman.  It trivializes the feminist movement.

For God's sake take the thinng in the context of the rest of the scene!

You missed most of the scene.  It went more like this:

Batman knocks Catwoman down.
Catwoman says "How could you, I'm a woman."
Batman apologizes and begins to help her up.
Catwoman knocks him off the building, saying "As I was saying, I'm a woman --
and not to be taken for granted."

Kinda changes the meaning, doesn't it?
 
> Taking a quick first look at this scene you may think that it was
> just put in to grab a few laughs.  When I saw it though, I heard
> only a few groans.  The groans could have come because the audience
> recognized the horribly cliched line or, as in my case, because the
> audience recognized the trivializing effect it had.

Maybe they groaned because they saw the trap that Batman was falling into.
 
>> Like the security guard said, "I don't know whether to open fire or fall in
>> love!"  (As Catwoman was destroying a display case.)
> 
> There are theories that argue that men's greatest fear is of castration.
> When she removes the guns, she is symbolically castrating the men.  This
> is effective (but none the less, cliched) method of raising feelings
> of resent in the male viewer.  There are other scenes that do this also.

No, if they wanted to imply that she had castrated the guards, they would have
shown her whipping them in the crotch.  They had no problem with graphic
violence.

I think that your problem is that you are viewing this *only* as gender
commentary when it's not that simple.

I see the scene as her being quite specific about who she's getting revenge
against.  The only violence she did to them was to disarm them.  She then sent
them on their way.  On the other hand, she didn't castrate Schreck -- she
electrocuted him.
 
> And when the Penguin says that line about "pussy".  (I think it was
> something like "Just the pussy I've been waiting for").  I, nor any of my 
> companions, could beleive that they used such an obvious dumb line.
> The writer's attempt at sexual innuendo is overdone as if no one would
> get the association of woman and cat/pussy.  It is so overdone and
> poorly done that it becomes painful to watch.

It was *meant* to be an obvious sexual innuendo, and the writer was *counting*
on the audience's cathcing it!  The goal there was to portray Penguin as a
sleaze.
 
> I have no idea what to make of the (obvious) parallel of the Penguin
> being dropped in a basket to float down the creek and the story of
> Moses.

Don't make anything of it.  It isn't there.

> women negative messages?  I might be interpretting all the symbolics 
> incorrectly.

Bingo!

> On the other hand, Catwoman can be seen as a negative image of a 
> strong female.  It boils down to "she uses sex to get what she wants."
> She has no morals.  (Somewhat equivalent to a woman sleeping her
> way to the top.)  Taking this interpretation, Catwoman certainly is
> not a positive image of woman.  It reflects the common patriarchal 
> view that women are morally inferior (to men, of course).
> 
> Which one of these interpretations is correct?

Neither.  Catwoman's a villain.  Villains are not generally known for their
high moral standards.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: deannab@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Deanna Bergstrom)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:57:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Variations of a name
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (NMD MTA MWTD)