HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eht@cmu.edu (Eric Thayer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DEC's alpha is "way fast" according to WSJournal
Date: 14 Nov 92 01:49:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.Bxonqw.B1u.2
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Nov13.194321.13200@cs.tu-berlin.de>  writes:
> nevin@dtint.dtint.com writes:
> 
> >> I don't see a major revolution occurring with the transition between
> >> 32-bit and 64-bit processors because the computer industry really hasn't
> >> max'ed out the possibilities of 32-bit machines yet.  (How many people
> >> do you know have complained that their machines can only address 4 gigs
> >> at a time?  Anyone ever seen a machine with more than 4 gigs?  Cray
> >> YMP's in your local supercomputing center, perhaps, but not machines
> >> intended for the consumer market.)
> >> 
> >> -Chuck
> >
> >While 4 gigabytes of usable virtual memory seems large right now, there are
> >many high-end workstations that are beginning to bump into this limit.
> >
> >Thus, the eventual transition to 64-bit processors in inevitable.
> 
> I can only second that.  I have an application that currently requires
> about half a gig of memory.  With current NeXTs, I have to split it
> up and do it several times, limiting throughput and performance and 
> also decreasing reliability/compatability.

Our speech recognizers at CMU gobble up 100Mb for a Wall Street Journal  
"dictation" task (5000 word vocab trained on text from Wall Street Journal).   
Our large vocabulary system (21,000 words) tops out at 220Mb (about 140Mb is  
resident).  The interesting thing is that even with an Alpha, we are running at  
10-15 times real time (i.e. a 3 second utterance would take > 30 seconds to  
recognize).

So if you're talking spreadsheets and flat-file databases, 150 MIPS is probably  
overkill.  But if you want your computer to do interesting stuff like great 3D  
animation, real-time video, speech recognition, etc., there are plenty of ways  
to use up 1 GIPS in a hurry.

..eric
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Subject: Re: NeXT edu prices go UP!
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:03:43 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.000649.5406@leland.Stanford.EDU>  
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
> Aaargh!  What is NeXT doing?
> 
> After weeks of discussion of the need for cheaper machines, guess  
> what?  The price here at Stanford for the cheapest available NeXT  
> just went UP!
> 
> On the previous price list, the cheapest NeXT listed was the 8/250  
> Turbo slab, which went for $3,851.  Not listed but also available  
> (according to bookstore sales droids) was the non-turbo 8/105 slab  
> for $3,400 (up $350 since its introduction).  Now the latest price  
> list is out and the cheapest available NeXT is the 16/250 Turbo Slab  
> for $4,483.  

..which is still cheaper than our edu price for the same
system.

NeXT probably is shifting it's volume agreements with
your edu reseller.  I've pushed for an end to the edu volume
agreements, since they provide encouragement that
isn't needed (where higher volumes are sold), and vice
versa for lower volume resellers.  Of course, I wanted the
prices to be uniformly *lower*! 

--
Nathan Janette
PPP link from hilbert.csb.yale.edu

Please reply to: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (NeXT)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Subject: Re: NeXTWorld Expo East
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 22:18:50 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.194132.4878@netcom.com> garylang@netcom.com (Gary  
Lang) writes:
> "If NeXT were to introduce new technology and a public offering of stock  
at  
> the next Expo, where do you think they would get more exposure: New York  
> City or San Francisco?"
> 

How about a main show in SF, but with smaller shows in other cities
such as NY, Washington DC, Dallas, etc linked by live broadcast of
conferences and speeches...

--
Nathan Janette
PPP link from hilbert.csb.yale.edu

Please reply to: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (NeXT)
From: ttn@cs.tut.fi (Tero Nieminen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT versus Sun
Date: 6 Nov 92 07:33:39
Organization: Tampere Univ. of Technology, Finland.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kivikkorastas.cs.tut.fi
In-reply-to: ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu's message of 5 Nov 92 21:21:49 GMT

In article <83102@ut-emx.uucp> ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd) writes:
Path: news.cs.tut.fi!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uknet!doc.ic.ac.uk!agate!ames!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!ifbb657

   I know that Sun's windowing system sucks doggie cookies, but why is
   logging on and off the Suns so sllllooooowwww compared to logging
   onto the NeXT?  (UT's NeXT is an original NeXTCube upgraded to a
   NeXTDimension with two monitors and the MO drive.)

Probably because most suns do not use Xdm (or any equivalent)like next
uses, so that it can have the window server running all the time.
Instead the Sun has to start the server every time you log in. Also,
they might be using OpenWindows, which has the funtionality of three
different window systems in it (namely SunView, News, and X).
-- 
         Tero Nieminen                      DANGER!
         ttn@cs.tut.fi                   Computer Bytes!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rps@pombo.inescc.pt (Rui Pedro Salgueiro)
Subject: Re: DEC's alpha is "way fast" according to WSJournal
Organization: INESC - Nucleo de Coimbra
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 12:16:23 GMT

carsten@pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Carsten Schultz) writes:
:byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer) writes:
:: Joseph R. Grace <JGrace@TetraSoft.com> writes
:: The Wall Street Journal, Tuesday, November 10, 1992, page B4,
:: John R. Wilke,  staff reporter of The Wall Street Journal.
:: > Digital's Alpha chip is a technical departure from much of the rest
:: > of the field, capable of swallowing 64 bits of data at once, or
:: > four billion times as much data as the 32-bit chips championed by
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:: > competitors.
:: 
:: > WHOA --- that's way fast I/O!  (Me again.  :-) I guess it has a
:: > hidden mode which DEC has kept under wraps until the machines's
:: > introduction today.  Frankly I'm amazed.  :-)
:: 
:: Huh? Dec's Alpha architecture has always been 64 bits (as far as
:: I know).  And, yes, it does make for some wicked-fast I/O.
:: 
:: And 64 bits does give programs a big edge.  And they don't even
:: have to be changed that much to use it.  (Well, not if they were
:: designed right in the first place. ;-)
::
: I agree. I think 64 bit processors are underestimated by many people.
: 
: Carsten
:
I think you two misread the original poster.
I think he was pointig the confusion between the increase in address
space and the increase in CPU-memory bandwidth made by the journalist
(for lack of a better word. How do you call a person who writes about
subjects that he doesn't understand ? :) .

For those of you that also don't understand, the later is twofold (64
versus 32) and the former is ~4G (2^32 = 4294967296) (2^64 versus 2^32).

--
Rui Salgueiro		| Dpt. de Matematica	  | Safe sex doesn't mean no
E-Mail: rps@inescc.pt	| Universidade de Coimbra | sex, it just means use your
   clcmat@ciuc2.uc.pt	| Portugal		  | imagination - Billy Bragg
   rps@mat.uc.pt   RSN	| A guest @ Inesc Coimbra |
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: ijeff@alfred.carleton.ca (Ian Jefferson)
Subject: Re: NeXT edu prices go UP!
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 21:31:49 GMT

>>[perceptive analysis of cost/benefits for entry level edu NeXTs deleted]

>>NeXT Inc. seems to have forgotten that low- and no-profit machines for edu
>>users will generate brand loyalty when these folks get out into the real
>>world and have some say in business purchase decisions that generate profits
>>for NeXT Inc.

>>David Basiji

>Low- and no-profit?  I'm sure it doesn't cost NeXT more than 750$ to
>make a 'station.  At low profit prices, you could buy an entire
>machine for under 2k$.  I believe you are right, that edu discount

Actually I recall that in QTY 1000 that the 68040-33 cost around $800 in
Feb 92.  It must have come down some since then but even so...

I would guess that the station costs NeXT more like $2k so selling it for 
$4K seems reasonable.  

Besides NeXT is only just now becomeing profitable.

I think the high cost of NeXT is a myth. Try to purchase a '486 with enough
i/o memory network and graphics and you will be spending as much as on a NeXT.
And there are millions of 486's not just thousands!

Ian

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Jefferson 	ijeff@ccs.carleton.ca No NeXT mail please!
		ijeff@computeractive.on.ca NeXT mail please!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com (Ron Pomeroy x(Coop))
Subject: Re: NeXT's binaries need a diet, or the solution to NeXT's multiprocessor problem.
Reply-To: rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 00:00:34 GMT

In article <Nov.11.01.37.01.1992.26014@gandalf.rutgers.edu>  
szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit) writes:
>>I think that a good method is to compile the any app for all the
>>different CPU's and put all of the versions in the .app wrapper.  When
>>you double click on the app for the first time the machine figures out
>>what CPU is being used and deletes all of the unecessary binaries in
>>the wrapper.

No thanks!

Suppose my home directory is really on a disk which is NFS mounted (like it  
really is now) and I have a system-wide account.  With fat binaries I can log  
in from a NS486 client *OR* a NeXTstation - double click the Foo.app and it  
will "Just Work (tm)".  That's the way I want it !

--
Ronald Pomeroy		[Objective-Cruntime: [Smalltalk runtime]];
Advanced Micro Devices	[self dream-on];
CAM Applications Group
rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com (NeXTmail preferred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: eps@futon.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott)
Subject: Re: The Next NeXTWorld Expo
Reply-To: eps@cs.sfsu.edu
Organization: San Francisco State University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 03:07:49 GMT

In article <STATMAN.92Oct30091821@marlin.stat.ufl.edu>
	statman@stat.ufl.edu (Chuck Kincaid) writes:
>NeXT:  like buying a 747...with pilot, ground crew, flight attendants,
>		Columbian coffee, and showing the Star Wars trilogy.

Speaking of which... anyone out there have a scorefile (or DSP
program) for the THX Logo (a/k/a "Deep Note")?

"Gotta love those gold plated line out jacks"

					-=EPS=-
From: starta@tosh.UUCP (John Starta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Next NextWorld Expo
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 21:28:39 MST
Reply-To: tosh!starta@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (John Starta)
Organization: Phoenix, AZ

dave@prim.demon.co.uk (Dave Griffiths) writes:

> But does NeXTWorld actually pay for it? I would have thought they were too
> small. NeXT themselves seemed to be in charge at the last one, and if the
> next Expo is being delayed to fit in with NeXT's product announcements, it
> implies a pretty cosy relationship.

I think Mitch Hall Associates are the actual people behind the NeXTWorld 
Expo. NeXTWorld magazine appears to "sponsor" the show in namesake only, 
much like a corporation will sponsor a sports event or arena. As for 
delaying the Expo for product announcements, it makes perfect sense: new 
products mean better attendance, and that means more money.

> Can't see it happening though. NeXT in Europe couldn't organize a piss-up
> in a brewery. Let's hope they can manage a more effective appearance at
> CeBIT this year.

<grin>

john

-- 
John Starta                                  tosh!starta@enuucp.eas.asu.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: dave@prim.demon.co.uk (Dave Griffiths)
Subject: Re: The Next NextWorld Expo
Organization: Primitive Software Ltd.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 11:21:56 GMT

In article <1d9knqINN6be@gap.caltech.edu> ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar) writes:
>
>True, San Fran is not easy for Europeans to get to.
 
But worth it, IMO. Leaving snow-bound Munich to lie on the beach in
California in January...

>What this really calls for  
>is some sort of EuroNeXT conference - which NeXT would be at in perhaps a  
>smaller way, just NeXTEurope and the top brass.  The question is, who (since  
>NeXTWorld is pretty much US only, right?) would sponsor that?

But does NeXTWorld actually pay for it? I would have thought they were too
small. NeXT themselves seemed to be in charge at the last one, and if the
next Expo is being delayed to fit in with NeXT's product announcements, it
implies a pretty cosy relationship.

Can't see it happening though. NeXT in Europe couldn't organize a piss-up
in a brewery. Let's hope they can manage a more effective appearance at
CeBIT this year.

Dave Griffiths
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: The Next NeXTWorld Expo
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 19:47:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.030749.14836@csus.edu> eps@futon.SFSU.EDU (Eric P.  
Scott) writes:
> In article <STATMAN.92Oct30091821@marlin.stat.ufl.edu>
> 	statman@stat.ufl.edu (Chuck Kincaid) writes:
> >NeXT:  like buying a 747...with pilot, ground crew, flight attendants,
> >		Columbian coffee, and showing the Star Wars trilogy.
> 
> Speaking of which... anyone out there have a scorefile (or DSP
> program) for the THX Logo (a/k/a "Deep Note")?
> 

What a great idea!

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: carsten@pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Carsten Schultz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT's binaries need a diet, or the solution to NeXT's multiprocessor problem.
Date: 11 Nov 1992 15:11:27 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carsten@pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Carsten Schultz)
NNTP-Posting-Host: pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de

In article <Nov.11.01.37.01.1992.26014@gandalf.rutgers.edu>  
szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit) writes:
.. When
> you double click on the app for the first time the machine figures out
> what CPU is being used and deletes all of the unecessary binaries in
> the wrapper.

Well this might be a nice option, but not useful for everyone. Please do  
not forget that there might be networks with different CPUed (what a word)  
computers. And I hope, this case will not be too unfrequent, as I still  
hope for a high end NeXT (a 486 will be a nice low end machine in a few  
years).

Carsten
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn)
Subject: Re: NeXT edu prices go UP!  AGAIN!
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:48:47 GMT

spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
> Yesterday I wrote:
> > Aaargh!  What is NeXT doing?
> > After weeks of discussion of the need for cheaper machines, guess  
> > what?  The price here at Stanford for the cheapest available NeXT  
> > just went UP!
> > ....  the latest price list 
> > is out and the cheapest available NeXT is the 16/250 Turbo Slab  
> > for $4,483.  No, that is not a typo.  $4,483.  Edu. 
> 
> Well guess what?  I just got the latest price list and price have  
> increased AGAIN!
> 
> The cheapest available NeXT listed is still the 16/250 mono Turbo  
> Slab, but it now lists for $4,787!

I'm usually a week or two behind on our lists (here at RPI), but I'm pretty  
sure the cheapest NeXT off the NeXT price list is still the greyscale  
(non-Turbo) NeXTstation with 8meg of RAM and a 105 meg hard disk.  We are  
able to sell that for about $3500.

We also still have the 8/250 greyscale (I refuse to say "mono", since it is  
more than just black-and-white) turbo NeXTstation priced at a bit less than  
$4000.  I need to recheck this one, because *I* thought it was gone...

Our price for the 16/250 greyscale turbo NeXTstation is about $4900, so the  
price you're seeing for that is actually better than what we're doing for it  
here at RPI.  The price you *were* getting charged for that ($4483) looks  
low enough that I suspect it was an error.

The price of the cheapest color NeXTstation has just increased by quite a  
bit, if I've read all the info correctly (and I believe I have, since I've  
called one person at NeXT and they came to the same conclusion).  The  
cheapest *machine* is still the non-Turbo color with 16 meg of RAM and 250  
meg of disk space, but the cheapest color monitor to put on that has gone  
from being the 17" non-ADB Fimi monitor (which is now discontinued) to being  
the 21" ADB Sony monitor (the 21" Hitachi also being discontinued, and the  
17" Sony is not usable on the non-turbo Color station).

So, if I'm correct about the 17" Sony not being available on the non-turbo  
machine, the cheapest color system has gone from being $5300 to $6300.  At  
that price point one might as well get the 16/250 color turbo with the 17"  
Sony monitor, which we sell for less than $6500.  That would give you a  
faster machine with more disk space and the smaller monitor (and I'd prefer  
the 17" monitor, since that results in better resolution in dpi).

I find this color situation quite depressing, particularly after all the  
work I have to spend updating the damn price list only to have nothing but  
bad news to show for my efforts.  But on greyscale stations things haven't  
seemed to change by much (or at least, not that I'm aware of *yet*).

--
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
ITS Systems Programmer            (handles NeXT-type mail)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: ijeff@alfred.carleton.ca (Ian Jefferson)
Subject: Re: Byte Magazine pans the NeXTstation
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 02:03:13 GMT

In <175@bytepb.UUCP> ben@bytepb.UUCP (Ben Smith @ BYTE) writes:

>pgriffin@uful07.phys.ufl.edu (Paul A. Griffin) writes:

>>You should take a look at this article.  It's the most bizzare product 
>>comparison that I've ever seen in Byte.  After reading it, you might
>>want to send your comments to the authors, 

>I have had a NeXTstation on my desk for many months. It was my
>main interface to my network during that time. I have no
>reservations in saying that is a very attractive and useable
>workstation, particularly if it is connected with other
>NeXTstations. But, it does not work in a mixed environment. (Nor
>does the Mac or PC, for that matter.) For heterogenous UNIX
>computing I prefer something that uses X as a matter of course
>and which relies more on standards (such as RFC822 for mail). 

Actually RFC822 mail is supported and X is easier to use and install than
on many platforms (even SUN, ever try to use an openXtermcmdView tool?)

It's good to hear from Byte on the internet.  Byte has long been one of 
my standard referance mags although in recent months seems to be heading
off into the Microsoft weeds.

Ben I think you suffer from a disease that I have recently discovered called
feature dissection disease.  Basically I can prove that any workstation is no
good, but the NeXT is an especially easy target for this disease. After all
Its more expensive than a '486 clone, the network is harder to use than a 
Mac's, there is less software than for a DOS pc, and it is slower than an
HP Snake.  Not only that but it's Black!

Sheesh! what a piece of junk I'm selling mine right away! :-)

Ian

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Jefferson 	ijeff@ccs.carleton.ca No NeXT mail please!
		ijeff@computeractive.on.ca NeXT mail please!
From: carsten@pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Carsten Schultz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DEC's alpha is "way fast" according to WSJournal
Date: 11 Nov 1992 23:42:38 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carsten@pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Carsten Schultz)
NNTP-Posting-Host: pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de

In article <1992Nov11.174833.20588@adobe.com> byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)  
writes:
..
> 
> And 64 bits does give programs a big edge.  And they don't even
> have to be changed that much to use it.  (Well, not if they were
> designed right in the first place. ;-)
> 
I agree. I think 64 bit processors are underestimated by many people.

Carsten
From: szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT's binaries need a diet, or the solution to NeXT's multiprocessor problem.
Date: 11 Nov 92 06:37:02 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I think that a good method is to compile the any app for all the
different CPU's and put all of the versions in the .app wrapper.  When
you double click on the app for the first time the machine figures out
what CPU is being used and deletes all of the unecessary binaries in
the wrapper.

	Or is this already the basic idea of FatBinaries?

later, John
-- 
NeXT Campus Consultant---Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey |my    %^)
John Kheit/monoChrome  |                                             |fried %-)
173 Westgate Drive     | Audix#5512                                  |brain %>)
Edison, NJ 08820-1163  | kheit@hangout.rutgers.edu,szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu
From: ifbb657@cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXT's binaries need a diet, or the solution to NeXT's multiprocessor problem.
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:09:11 GMT

OK, NeXT is using FatBinaries to do machine code for each processor.
The bad thing about this is when NeXTStep runs on other processors,
binaries must be compiled and included with the release.  P-Code is
too S----L----O----W, and interpreting binaries is slllloooowwww also.

My solution:

NeXT code

Here is how it works:

1:  Programmer codes his "killer app"
2:  C-compiler compiles the code into NeXTCode which is machine
    independant, similar to Microsoft's P-code.
3:  When program gets to the user, the user uses an installer/
    "compiler" to convert the NeXTCode to native machine code for
    his processor.

Pros:

o Only one binary needed, no FatBinaries or ObeseBinaries
o Runs LOTS faster than P-code or interpreted code
o Easy to do

Cons:

Maybe some inefficency, but _very_ little.

Notes:

A special debugger can be produced to modify NeXTCode at the source
for optomization

Patches to NeXTcode for different processors can be stored with the code

NeXT will have something no other computer has dreamed of offering :-)

COMMENTS ARE WELCOME- I would like to work on this as a discussion.

PS:  If NeXT is listening, and this helps, I am looking for a NeXT for
my use to program some stuff :-).
--
******* ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas R. Floyd) ******
            Disclaimer: I speak for myself.

            Please, no NeXTMail at this time.