From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Atheists "stir up shit" (was Re: Religion = Anything that's fun ...)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 19:00:23 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <1992Dec17.040551.8750@timesink.chi.il.us> harry@timesink.chi.il.us (Harold Platypus) writes:

>>The "little boy" wants to join the BSA but can't because he questions the
>>existence of god.  What is a "Big Dickhead" supposed to do,  say "Well son,
>>people discriminate against atheists and agnostics and you'll just have to
>>accept it."????
>>Hell no!  Discrimination on the basis of race, creed, lack of creed, gender, 
>>sexual preference or nation of origin is wrong and should be confronted when 
>>and where it occurs.
>>Mike A. McAngus (mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org)

>Why would anyone want to belong to an organization whose charter and
>basic beliefs they oppose?

 Several reasons, the foremost being that scouting's 'basic beliefs' are
*not* in opposition to atheism. Baden-Powell, the founder of scouting,
specifically stated that he thought atheists could benefit from the
teachings of scouting. I was in the Scouts for several years, and made
Eagle, and my lack of religion was never in the least relevant.

>                           Also, I can't believe a boy of ten:
>
>1) Has a conviction that strong without being coached or encouraged

 Well, you're free to doubt that, but I'd take your doubts more seriously
if you had met the boy.

>2) Understands enough about the legal system to seek a remedy

 That's what parents and lawyers are for. To explain enough so that they
do understand. The kids still want to go through with it.

>3) Can afford the almost $1000 court filing fees

 Again, that's what parents are for. I have seen an interview with the
kids in question, and *they* are the ones pushing for this.

>4) Can afford to retain an attorney -or- has found a shyster with
>   ethics to try a principal issue with no monetary award sought.

 Actually, if I recall correctly, the father is acting as counsel, though
I could be mistaken.

>I believe "a Big Dickhead" with his own agenda would seize on this
>opportunity to "stir up shit" using his misguided (and probably
>brainwashed) progeny as a red herring. "Oh, the poor, rejected lad!".
>- Harry

 Oh, of course, the child *couldn't* possibly both a) want to join the
Scouts and b) want to be honest about his beliefs. And the parents
*couldn't* want to help their child do it...

 Actually, since the Scouts don't take gov't money, I think they are
within their leagal rights in excluding atheists, gays, etc. However..
 1) This is contrary to the stated intentions of scouting's founder.
 2) This is contrary to every principle of scouting I learned.
 3) Since they *do* take United Way money, and the U.W. charter prohibits
funding organizations that discriminate on such grounds, I think both
the United Way and the B.S.A. are being hypocritical. (With the sole
exception of the San Francisco chapter of the U.W. The Chicago chapter
actually dropped its non-discrimination clause in order to keep funding
the scouts!!!)

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles
 ingles@engin.umich.edu

 "The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are going to the
stars!" - Robert A. Heinlein
Newsgroups: alt.atheism