From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,news.admin.policy
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Defending the rights of the criminals and Nazi Armenians, but not...
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 17:53:01 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <BzxMtI.Lpp@mtholyoke.edu> jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz) writes:

>I am sympathetic to your protest, but what do you propose to /do/ about it?

How about...

 "...that more people have to die..." 

                    ASALA/SDPA/ARF <91@urartu.UUCP>


#cosar@tera.cs.umn.edu
#Subject: Davidian Addressing Accusations, Rather Poorly
#Keywords: Fake-Quote by David Davidian
#Message-ID: <1991Jan11.034722.15814@cs.umn.edu>

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
>Subject: Davidian Addressing Accusations I

[AC] >From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
[AC] >Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
[AC] dd>According to Esat Uras [1], 2,345 Armenians were removed from Istanbul
[AC] dd>on April 24-26, 1915 and were murdered. Go get the book, Uras has been
[AC]                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[AC]   Where did you find the "1915 AND WERE MURDERED" LIAR David Davidian?

[AC] >From a text you don't have! Besides I have Yale University to back me up!
[AC]
[AC] Who says that I don't have the "text"? Here is the Turkish Text:
[AC]
[AC] Source: Esat Uras, "Tarihte Ermeniler ve Ermeni Meselesi," Belge 
[AC] Yayinlari, 1976 (2nd Edition).
[AC]
[AC] p. 612.
[AC]
[AC]   "Bununla beraber Istanbul'da oturan 77,735 Ermeniden soz konusu olan 
[AC]    ihtilallere katilmaktan sanik olarak yalniz 2345 kisi tutuklanip, 
[AC]    digerlerinin huzur ve rahatla is ve gucleriyle mesgul olduklari ve
[AC]    buyuk bir guvenlik icinde yasadiklari goz onune alinirsa, bu
[AC]	tedbirlerin herhalde gerekli oldugu ve Ermenilere karsi hicbir hareket
[AC]	anlamini tasimadigi meydana cikar."
[AC]
[AC] in English:
[AC]
[AC]   However, considering the fact that only 2345 of the 77,735 
[AC]   Armenians living in Istanbul were arrested because of joining 
[AC]   the mentioned revolutions, and the others have been living and 
[AC]   continuing their activities with peace and comfort in a 
[AC]   great security, it becomes clear that these precautions 
[AC]   were necessary and was not a move against Armenians [as a nation]

[AC] Where did you find the "1915 AND WERE MURDERED" David Davidian? Or are 
[AC] you a Liar?

>No liar. Based on your source, you are simply correct for Uras directly wrote
>that 2,345 Armenian were arrested (tutuklamak). Those Armenians were deported 
>and eventually murdered. Note, I didn't add quotations around the text 

Where did you find the "eventually murdered" Davidian? Any sources, references?

>associated with Uras. He simply supported my contention that Armenians from 

Now trying to twist after claiming that it was true by giving it with a 
reference to Esat Uras. Why did you, then, give it with a reference to
Esat Uras? You little duckling, and why did it take you so long to say that
it was not a quote from Esat Uras? Why didn't you accept it 1 month before
when I first asked it. Why did you prefer to say that:

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
>Subject: Read Before You Write - You Looked in the Wrong Book!
>Keywords: Turkish Re-Write of History
>Message-ID: <1135@urartu.SDPA.org>
>Date: 21 Dec 90 15:26:31 GMT

Now, tell me Davidian. Which one is trying to Re-Write history? Which one is
playing around quotes? Which one is quoting non-existing quotes? Which one
is adding "1915 and were murdered" and when caught on revision, trying to 
escape saying that "I didn't put it in quotes"? You insisted that it was 
"correct". You gave "correct" references for me to find, and now you say 
"it was not a quote"? You are a truly a very low life form Davidian.


>Istanbul were arrested, deported and were murdered. Read my original postings 
>with the 1988 English version of Uras's text. You were so zealous in your 
>attempt to discredit me, you forgot the original purpose of our "discussion"! 

Original purpose? I am only exposing your lies, that's all. It is a very 
simple task, I go and check everything you say and find your lies.

>I showed that Istanbul Armenians were indeed deported during the genocide. You

Only 2345 out of 77,735 , and those who were involved in revolutions.

>spent so much time calling me a liar, you forgot to address the real issue! If

Why? Didn't I expose your lies? Isn't that an issue for you? Who are you?
Aren't you the Davidian that I have been exposing his lies for one month?

>you recall, Cosar, you asked me to prove that Armenians from Istanbul were 
>removed...and I did, but you never provided a refutation.

"Removed"? Where did you get it? They were arrested that's all in those
paragraphs, where did you find the "rest"? Please give me the reference
and quote.

>In contrast, however, I did include quotes around the following text:

>    On December 7th, 1915 the German Ambassador Metternich informed Berlin 
>    that 4,000 Armenians have been deported from Istanbul and that the total 
>    up to that time was 30,000 deported and that "gradually a clean sweep will
>    be made of the remaining 80,000 Armenians of the Ottoman capital".

This contradicts with your Esat Uras paragraph. Which one do you believe in?
How could 30,000 Armenians out of 77,735 be deported and still 80,000 of
them remain? Aren't you again a little bit off mathematics?

>Turkish source, meaning it from "your side" -- not mine), what about the 
>30,000 "already deported", and another "4,000", etc., from the German source?

Tell me about the Armenian population in Istanbul, with references and quotes,
then I will give you another lecture on mathematics, ok?

[AC] Himm, a typical example of Rewriting-History. When the original document 
[AC] does not support you, have it translated to English by an "independent 
[AC] Armenian Translator" and then use it to support your lies.

>Again, Cosar, you are so much of a zealot, still after my pants, you failed to

We saw the one after pants, didn't we?

>note that I have nothing to do with the Yale Journal, nor do Armenians. I

How about Dadrian? Or better "Dadrain"?

>never mentioned about translations, the Yale Journal is in English.

Yokh yav? Thanks for the info.

[AC] >	"The accuracy of the sources used in this article was verified by
[AC] >	 an independent translator jointly hired by the Yale Journal of
[AC] >	 International Law and Professor Dadrain (the author). The Journal
[AC] >                                   ^^^^^^^
[AC] >	 took this unprecedented step because the location of the sources
[AC] >	 and the variety of foreign languages in which the material appear
[AC] >	 made an exhaustive review by the Journal staff impossible.

[AC] I think you mean "Dadrian", don't you? Are we again trying to hide the
[AC] Armenian-Connection Mr. Davidian?

>No Cosar, it's called a typographical error. If you get a copy of Yale Journal

If this "typo" is done by someone who "forgets" to put quotes around his
quotes, then claims them to be true for one month and then say, "Oh, I did
not put quotes around them", then one better suspect.

>you will read Dadrian. I am not hiding anything. In contrast, in TEL you

Who, you? The one who claimed his "fake-quote" as true for one month?

>claimed that Cosar is your real name, not Coras!

Why are you interested in my "real" name?

>And once again, Cosar, your zealousness helped prove my point, and as a bonus
>you contradicted yourself and Professor Justin McCarthy, as follows:

Justin McCarthy? What are you talking about Davidian? Have you begun losing
your mind? May be I shouldn't have hit your head so strong, sorry if it
caused some permanent damage.

>I was referring to page 266 in the Yale Journal! -- which says "eventually
>executed" - note: the quotes.

Please give this quote Davidian, I will anyway get a copy of this issue,
but I want you to quote it yourself, will you?

>You fell into the same trap I had caught another fool in via email! You spent 

Who is this fool? Give me his name. May be someone that we know ha?
Tell me who is this fool caught by your "lies"?

>so much time fighting the battle -- calling me a liar -- you lost the war! By 

Again? Who made you the "referee"? Who counted the scores? What game were we
playing? The one who tells more "lies" wins! Was this the name of the game?
BTW, aren't you a little optimistic with fake-quotes, fake-references and
and a fake-translation at hand made in 1990?

>the way, can you read German?

>Now, I request you to FAX me a copy of page 612 and the copyright page of YOUR
>Uras's text. My work FAX number is (508) 872-8692. Thank you.

First you please, send a copy your Yale journal at the below address(No bombs
please, there are 600 more people living there):

Ahmet Cosar
Computer Science Department
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, MN 55455

>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org        ...maybe next year!

Belki yarin, belki yarindan da yakin.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24543 talk.politics.soviet:10160 soc.culture.greek:11998 soc.culture.europe:10959 soc.history:10491 soc.culture.soviet:11747 soc.culture.turkish:13740