From: rstevew@deeptht.armory.com (Richard Steven Walz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Proving the existance of a deity (was Re: Mandatory negatives)
Date: 25 Aug 92 22:36:14 GMT
Organization: The Armory

In article <1992Aug8.041815.28994@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>In article <1992Aug7.141443.8687@cas.org>, sdr57@cas writes:
>>A last thought on the idea of proving the existence of a deity:
>
>"Proving" the existance of a deity is an interesting idea, but
>IMHO, ultimately futile.  Proof consists of defining some agreed
>upon axioms, and then proceding in a rigorous manner according
>to some agreed-upon rules for generating theorems.
>
>In otherwords, even the most air-tight proof is just a gentlemen's
>agreement, when you get right down to where the rubber meets the
>road.
>
>Being a theist, I do believe in a deity, and I do believe that evidence
>abounds for the existance of a deity, but I think that the idea of
>proving the existance of a deity is an academic exercise at best.
>
>>[...]the presence of a watch implies a watchmaker
>
>I kinda like this, but I find another argument more compelling.  Any
>observer of the universe might conclude that a fundamental law is that
>the process of change strongly tends to increase the amount of "disorder"
>in the system: take a box of toothpicks (nicely aligned and parallel),
>and empty the contents on the floor.  What you get is not the words
>to an epic poem, or the great American novel, or anything intelligable;
>you get a mess.
>
>So, if you assume spontaneous `creation' (for lack of a better word),
>you have to explain how galaxies, stars, planets, and most importantly,
>life and intelligence all came into being in the face of this demonstrated
>tendancy.  Personally, I don't buy it.
---------------------------
You are presuming a knowledge of thermodynamics that you obviously
don't have. A system must have overall entropy, but in localized areas
within the system there can be generated at random highly ordered
structures. Read some chaos theory. And the development of either
galaxies or stars or cells or complex life is not precluded from
increasing the divergence from disorder in proportion to the energy it
takes command of, nor the level of that divergence. If you think this
points to god, you are exceeding the texts on the subject and
introducing a cipher that means what? If you simply give the name God
to the entropic and anti-entropic processes, you have simply named the
theory of thermodynamics "God". You have not demonstrated any need for
this nor any other quality of this "God", and thus you fail by Occam's
razor.

>The only other alternative is that the universe was created by some
>kind of intellegent being.
----------------------
Almost sounds like Star Trek. "Let's find it's computer and kill it,
Spock."

>But getting back to the watchmaker...
>
>>Nevertheless, if one
>>can look closely enough, one can see the marks of the tools, if only
>>in their effects
>
>But what sort of tools would a deity use?  The Christian Bible speaks
>of G-d using his words to create ("G-d /said/ `let there be light'").
>What sort of `marks' would that leave?  Also, suppose there were some
>kind of marks.  Would we recognise them if we saw them?  The marks
>left by a watchmaker are well known, and easily recognisable.  How
>different might the marks of a deity be?
>
>There is also the question of the prejudice of the observer.  The
>belief of whether or not there is a Supreme Being is fundamental to
>our nature, 
----------------------
You are asserting something anthropologically that cannot be
supported. Nor if it were true, need it be true. That we search beyond
ourselves is one thing, but to try to encompass all the divinities
that have ever been conceived by humans is like gathering unrelated
pieces of junk.

-- 
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Richard STEVEn Walz   rstevew@deeptht.armory.com   (408) 429-1200 *
* 515 Maple Street #1   To remain ignorant enter in your KILL file: *
* Santa Cruz, CA 95060     /From: rstevew@deeptht.armory.com/h:j    *
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.misc:2773 rec.arts.sf.marketplace:448 alt.startrek.creative:1871