HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark Peterson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: A meditation of the Fourth Power of the Sphinx...
Date: 16 Apr 92 16:05:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: uwm.1992Apr16.160558.22452
Reply-To: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Originator: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

From article <HZa7iB1w164w@netlink.cts.com>, by misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson):
> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
[[...]]

> Yet, the gift of Silence (on Usenet usually found between the b & m keys
> on your keyboard [note: this is not a reference to the formula in Reguli!])


Couldn't let this one go.  *Very* nice.  Or *fishy*, one supposes.  Or
a more penetrating analysis of LAShTAL.  Or maybe there *is* room at
the 'N'....  Or maybe...  


hiho



-- 
mark ce peterson   | uw-washington county  | hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu 
dept of philosophy | west bend, wi.  53095 | (414) 335-5200        

     The shorter the tether, the sooner the goat starves.
From: oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Gender Differences (was Re: masonic morals & dogma)
Date: 15 Apr 92 21:14:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Apr15.153147.26836@seas.smu.edu>, mitchell@seas.smu.edu (Gary Mitchell) writes...
>Still debating about the reasons women aren't allowed in Freemasonry...
> 
>Here's my two cents' worth.
> 
>There is reason to believe that the historical basis of Freemasonry is
>in the Knights Templar. Now, I know a lot of garbage has been written
>about the connection. But after reading the book "Born in Blood" (which,
>by the way, is as close to sympathetic as an objective book can be,
>despite the gory title), I have come to believe in this theory. Whether
>the Knights Templar actually worshipped Baphomet has nothing to do with
>it. However, keep in mind that the Knights Templar were:
>1) a monastic order; and
>2) an order of knights.
>Hence, from the outset they have restricted the membership to women.
>It doesn't reflect blatant, modern sexism as much as a historical
>tradition with which few present-day Masons wish to tamper. I have
>taken this point up with Mason friends, by the way, and they agree
>that tradition guides their hands much more so than reason.
> 
>Gary Mitchell - mitchell@star0.seas.smu.edu

Reminds me of the Catholic Church which says that only men can be priests 
since all the apostles were men.

Because "its always been done that way," is an effective rationale.  After all, 
it prevents one from thinking of anything else.

Why don't these Masons dress up in armor and go clunking around, if they're 
so interested in tradition?

- Peggy -

PS:  I'm not entirely against all male organizations.  Didn't choke when
     the rationale was "so men can concentrate rather than being sexually
     distracted," though I still have doubts about this too.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: What is reality?
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 10 APR 92 09:12:32    


In article <1992Apr9.214919.9180@PA.dec.com>, dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com (David D'Antonio) writes...
> 
>In article <1992Apr5.223050.10775@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, rose@fsu1.cc.fsu.edu (Kermit Rose) writes:
>|>What is reality?
> 
>For an informative look at modern "scientific" theories that attempt
>to answer this question (and for a look at just how bizarre quantum
>theory can get), see the book "Paradigms Lost" (I forget the author).

I think this was science populist Frank Casti ?  Excellent presentation of the
way (and limitations) of scientific method as applied to philosophical 
questions.  He also wrote a book about 'certainty,'  but I haven't read it.

>|>What determines the existence of Free Will?
> 
>Chaos theory currently gets my vote.

There are some researchers currently studying the possibility of
applying Chaos mathmatics to brain activity patterns.   Interesting idea.

Do Chaos magicians actually study Chaos math, or do they borrow the
term and general concept primarily ?   

>And what do you do when you're attacked?

Hopefully, survive.  


					todd

"Morality through superior firepower,"

	anonyously posted as 'Thrasymachus'
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: n8743494@rowlf.cc.wwu.edu (The Stranger)
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:47:55 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.230126.28846@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>In article <1992Apr12.210932.10514@gdr.bath.ac.uk>, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes...
>> 
>>1)  Come up with a hypothesis
>> 
>>2)  Conduct experiments.  As a result of those experiments 
>>    alter your hypothesis into a theory.
>> 
>>3) Present your results to the world.  Your results will only be accepted
>>when other people in other places can replicate the results of your experiments
>>which back up your theory.
>> 
>>If you refuse to present your results or even your experments in detail, then
>>there is no logical or rational reason why anyone else should accept what
>>you claim.  
>> 
>>Since you refuse to present experiments and results, then I can only conclude
>>that you are deluded and not to be trusted.
>
>You don't understand what magick is supposed to be.  You obviously 
>haven't made an effort to find out.  If you can't be bothered to find out, 
>then why bother airing your opinions?  Simply jump to your conclusion that we 
>are deluded and not to be trusted, then get lost.  I can live with that.
>
>Don't owe you any explanations.
>
>- Peggy -
>
>Pssst:  Scientists tend to find out what they're talking about before they 
>        talk about it.

Another reason, in my personal experence (IMPE), is that magic works differently
for different people.  I don't kown why, but I think it has to do with a 
person's mind set.

The Stranger

Xref: sparky alt.magick:2141 alt.pagan:4743
From: oispeggy@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Gender Differences (was Re: masonic morals & dogma)
Date: 16 Apr 92 02:17:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <92106.163123J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) writes...
>In article <1992Apr15.201529.15305@acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) says:
>>
>>Why don't these Masons dress up in armor and go clunking around, if they're
>>so interested in tradition?
>>
>>- Peggy -
>>
>The Knights Templar branch of Masonry does!  Well, at least they wear
>swords to meetings.  The effect is rather comical, however.

I bet!  All those Masons checking out who has the biggest one.


>>PS:  I'm not entirely against all male organizations.  Didn't choke when
>>     the rationale was "so men can concentrate rather than being sexually
>>     distracted," though I still have doubts about this too.
> 
>I am nominally a Mason but will probably ask for a de-mit this year.
>There's not much magick in this organization (at least in my lodge);
>any magick is accidental and unintentional.  It's basically a social
>club.  I haven't seen anything in the Lodge that would make women
>jealous because they were missing out on it.  

Personally, I do not feel like I'm missing out on anything.  Wouldn't join 
even if I could.  Just don't care for sexist organizations.  Can't imagine 
joining the OES (womans' branch) where a man is charged with advising them.

>And I do think the real
>reason for all-male lodges goes back to the desire for social solidarity
>among hunters.  

"Social solidarity among hunter" sounds like getting away from the women to 
me.  As mentioned in my PS: (above) I'm not really against this.  But do 
believe that those who put a premium on "social solidarity among hunters" are 
too hung-up on sex-roles and body types.  If they paid less attention to 
gender it wouldn't bother them if women were present.   (Women can hunt too.)

Ideally mixed groups should be as effective as single-sex groups.  But human 
nature being what it is, things often don't work out that way.  A group of 
integrated masons would probably end up like my summer mixed softball team - 
lots of little romances, affairs, squabbles, break-ups, jealousy, hurt 
feelings, taking sides, people quitting, etc...  This is not that bad, for a 
team that's interested in fun not winning.  Doesn't bother the Bacchannals
since we have a long and proud history of coming in last in the league.  
Might bother the Masons.

>And perhaps to compensate for their inability to bear
>children.

Maybe in a few short years, men will be able to do this too, the way science 
is progressing.  I think it would be lovely.

>John A. Johnson
>[breaking an implicit alt.magick rule by cross-posting to alt.pagan]


- Peggy -
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:09:32 GMT
Organization: School of Mathematics, University of Bath, UK

In article <Gerald_Del_Campo.0031@sorinc.UUCP> Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:
>In a message dated Sat 11 Apr 92 06:35, Joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (joshua Ge
>wrote:
>
> JG> mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Apr6.200857.26908@ccu.umanitoba.ca> mayor@ic15.umeeng
>writes:
>>>In article 18018@gdr.bath.ac.uk, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
>writes:
>

> JG> people interpret it different ways. the way I interpret it, I won't
> JG> talk
> JG> (usuallly) about any specific experiences I have had. I'll talk about
> JG> stuff
> JG> I think might be possible, or probable, I am not unwilling to talk
> JG> about
> JG> specific techniques or methods or anything like that, but I won't
> JG> talk about
> JG> any workings I have done or the results thereof (or lack of results
> JG> thereof).
>
> JG> josh
>
>There is also the fact that can "cahrge" and idea or symbol by keeping it
>secret.  Something about thorowing your pearls before swine :)
>
>Gerald
>

Give me a break!  You guys like to go on and on about how magick is a form
of science and then you are unwilling to present evidence of the results of
your experiments with it.  Not only that, but you say you can't tell me,
because then your magick won't work and that it will be "throwing pearls
before swine."  I've had the same response from quacks and fakes in many
different dissiplines.  These are just poor excuses that people use, because
they are afraid of being exposed and unmasked.  Perhaps I should give you
the basics on the scientific method:

1)  Come up with a hypothesis

2)  Conduct experiments.  As a result of those experiments 
    alter your hypothesis into a theory.

3) Present your results to the world.  Your results will only be accepted
when other people in other places can replicate the results of your experiments
which back up your theory.

If you refuse to present your results or even your experments in detail, then
there is no logical or rational reason why anyone else should accept what
you claim.  

Since you refuse to present experiments and results, then I can only conclude
that you are deluded and not to be trusted.
From: phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ouija
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 04:10:02 CDT
Organization: Bogus.COM -- Public Access Network Services

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

> Would you pick up the phone, randomly dial, and ask advice from whoever was
> on the other end?  Would you pick up a ouija board, randomly call a spirit, 
> and ask advice from whoever was on the other side?  The spirits who are likel
> to "pick up the reciever" are not usually very removed from our level of 
> development and perspective.

Yes, usually they will just babble.  I have played with this on many occasions
with many friends.  Quite often they will lie to you deliberatly to get you
into trouble.  Occasionally you will find one that is telling the truth, but
it is really hard to tell up front if that is the case or not.   I have had
one that started being truthful, and then later (after he had gotten our trust)
started lying at the drop of a hat.

I have not let any of the spirits go into a medium in my presense, I am very
aware of their presense, and figure that I would probably make a good medium,
but don't desire to take a chance at entertaining a walk-in.


>                               However, *if* you have an experienced medium, a
> *if* s'he can contact a specific spirit who is trustworthy, and *if* you have
> a real reason to be asking for information--go for it.  (But I would suggest
> hand making a board for the group, and consecrating it.)  

I have not had this luck.  BTW, what is involved in making a Ouija board, and
consecrating it?

Oh, has anyone ever burned one of those puppies?  A freind of mine did, and it
screamed...   Wierd..  Why did it do that?

> On a related note: I have seen suggestions that mediums should never trance
> except when under someone's protections.  I am not sure I would agree with
> the never part, but I do think that it is a very good idea while the medium
> is learning hir art.  This requires another person who can perceive what is
> happening, and can prevent unintentional possession or obsession.  Also, the
> Afro-diasporic traditions suggest regular purification for mediums, or anyone
> working with spirits.  (Cover your aura :-) )

Question:  How does one prevent possesion?  How does one stay safe when
           attempting something of this sort?




===
* phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) * via CyberSpace Cafe
My opinions are my own.  They may or may not be shared by the management.
From: brown@cs.utk.edu (Lance A. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ouija
Date: 8 Apr 92 03:41:22 GMT
Organization: Univ of TN, Knoxville - CS Department
NNTP-Posting-Host: duncan.cs.utk.edu
In-reply-to: phantom@Bogus.COM's message of Tue, 07 Apr 92 04:10:02 CDT

On Tue, 07 Apr 92 04:10:02 CDT, phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) said:

> Oh, has anyone ever burned one of those puppies?  A freind of mine did,
> and it screamed...  Wierd..  Why did it do that?

Someone I know who had VERY bad experiences her Ouija board tried to burn
it.  Despite dousing the board and platten (sp?) with kerosene, they
wouldn't burn until after she broke both pieces in two.  Go figure...

Lance
--
Lance A. Brown  <brown@cs.utk.edu>
  The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data,
     and the Data is Life -- The Player's Litany
                                 from _The Long Run_ by D.K. Moran
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 16 Apr 92 21:50:54 GMT

with any luck, this will be my last word on this subject; I'll note
that techniques do get posted to this newsgroup (though not stories
relating how such and such a poster called up the demon flortnif and
sent him to do his unholy bidding (not from me anyway)). for instance, 
I just recently posted complete instructions on the construction of
alphabetic magick squares; anyone who is so inclined can perform their
own series of experiments with them and see if they work or not. This
particular system does require that one have a good grounding in qabalah, 
but so it goes. on another note, cward@dseg.ti.com (Christopher) writes:

>(5) Some people just don't want to get flamed.  (Side note: Josh moans about 
>    this group not being moderated, or wishing that it was, 

now christopher, I didn't say that. what I said was that I had had the 
opportunity to make this a moderated group at the get-go, that I had
decided against this, and that though I occasionally had second thoughts 
aboutthis, all in all I preferred the newsgroup as it is now. I don't
mind being criticised, but accuracy is a virtue second only to (something
or other, I forget).

>                                                       but he semi-moderates
>    the group by regular flames to new or trepidatious folk and pronouces 
>   summary judgement on those whose post their own judgements, differing 
>>   from JG's of  course. 

I'm hurt. And I thought I had been so sweetness and light lately. In any
case, I haven't flamed CD at all. I don't generally flame 'new or trep-
idatious folk', just idiots.

josh
From: dlawn@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Equinox
Date: 17 Apr 92 00:33:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:peg:523300010:peg:523300013:000:322
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!dlawn    Apr 16 00:33:00 1992


Josh,

Pardon my dimwitted Australian-ness, but I don't get it.
Are you saying that this largish expensive hardback 
sitting on my bookshelf doesn't exist, or that it is a fake?

If you believe it is a fake, then perhaps I should contact 
publishers. 

(not that I've actually gotten round to reading it, anyway.

)

Don.
From: misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 12 Apr 92 15:17:41 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:

> What I would like to know is 
> 
> 1) What is the act of the LBRP and other rituals consist of?
> 
> 2) What did you feel when you performed it?
> 
> 3) What was the effect of the ritual?  Did it bring you to an
> altered state of consciousness?  Did you contact any spiritual 
> entities?  What if anything did you communicate with them?
> Did you notice any effect that the ritual had on your state or
> the state of others in the physical relm (mental/ emotional/ or physical).
 
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
 
The LBRP (Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram) is the basis for all
Western Esoteric Ceremonial Magick.  It is described in several places
(Crowley's Liber O, Regardie's THE GOLDEN DAWN, and usually in the back
of any book on magick cowritten by Lon DuQuette & Chris Hyatt).  Resh
is found in Crowley's Liber Resh, and recommended by Donald Michael Kraig
in his MODERN MAGICK.  Some of these books you might be able to find at
your local university's library.  Some in the New Age type book stores.
 
The results of said rituals are not easy to condense for news group short
articles.  But I will try to do it in one sentence statements.  The LBRP
induces a state of profound centering, of cleaning out unwanted influences.
The practice of Resh induces an intense union with the cycles of the sun,
and thusly opens the way for K&C with the HGA.  When I reach the climax
of Israfel, I am Tahuti.
 
From your point three, it sounds like you are interested in doing Evocative
Magick.  Have you considered working the Goetia?
 
Love is the law, love under will.
 
m

--                    
INTERNET:  misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!misha
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Sex Magick
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:50:52 GMT

jlevitt@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mortiana) writes:

>tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:

>>>>Most folks who want to learn sex magic (who are not learning it as a later
>>>>step in learning a whole range of magical techniques) are jsut looking to
>>>>make sex more exciting.  If you need to make sex more exciting, you have
>>>>a problem which magic will not fix--it might make it work.  Try a 
>>>>therapist or one of the Twelve-step programs which deal with sexual 
>>>>addiction.

>>In article <joshua.702999787@coombs> joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua 
>>Geller) writes:

>>>hey BA, fuck off eh? where do you get off rendering judgements on other 
>>>people in this manner (oh, I forget, you always have done that ... sorry).

>>>the human asks a simple question and youassume he needs a therapist or a 
>>>twelve step program? how did you get to be such an asshole anyway?

>Whatever happened to everyone being able to express their own opinions?

huh? BA expressed his opinion (based on one post asking a simple (and
civil) question) that the poster is in need of professional help (on
the basis of an expressed desire to learn sex magick). I expressed my
opinion (based on BA's response and also on numerous similar BA responses
in the past) that BA was being an asshole, should fuck off, and should
stop being judgemental. seems to be everybody is expressing their own
opinion. 

>>It's a rather incredible arrogance he has, but one that's hardly
>>unusual in the occult and pagan communities.  People often seem the
>>most opinionated on those subjects they understand least.  With
>>Davis-Howe, that covers quite a broad area.

>>>[short review of various historical BA fatuities omitted]

>>The man is dim.  That's all there is to it.

>>>"[BA] says wicca is green and fuzzy...sounds like mold."
>>>                        peggy brown

>>Or like the inside of his head....
>>-- 
>I have spoken with BA many a time before and agree with what he says. 

how lovely for you.

>h> I was also present at the time of the green and fuzzy discussion of wicca.
>It _IS_ wicca in a nutshell! 

and what do they keep inside nutshells, boys and girls?

>                              one sentence. can you do any better?

unfortunately, with like two exceptions, I cannot.

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mitchell@seas.smu.edu (Gary Mitchell)
Subject: Pike's *Morals and Dogma*
Organization: SubGenius Inner Circle Knights - Lodge #273 - Dallas
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 23:51:03 GMT

Actually, I know of a used book store not five miles from my house that
has five copies of Morals and Dogma for sale. If anyone is interested,
pleas email me a request so I can reply whether there are any copies
left or not.

(Note: Between the cost of the book and postage, please send $10 when
you write (NOT EMAIL, obviously).)

Also, I want to stress two things:

1) No secrets are expounded here. If you want to learn the handgrips,
   become a Mason. (Your motives may be suspect, and they'll blackball
   you if you aren't straight with them.)

2) THESE ARE OLD BOOKS. They're pretty close to being antiques, in fact.
   As far as I know, they are in good condition. I have a copy from the
   same source, and it is very clean for an old book.

Finally, I have a question: why isn't there a Female Freemasonry of
sorts? That English witches had similar leanings as their masonic
counterparts is suggested in R.A. Wilson's latest Historical
Illuminati Chronicles novel. (Title, anyone?)

Rev. Sheldon der Wehr, H.o.t.S.F.
mitchell@star0.seas.smu.edu
"Behavior isn't a suit that you can change at will. It's a straight-
jacket that can only be removed the same way Houdini did... with
magic(k)."
From: Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:03:19 GMT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS - Medford, Oregon

In a message dated Sun 12 Apr 92 06:11, Joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (joshua Ge
wrote:

>In a message dated Tue  7 Apr 92 17:26, Joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (joshua
Gelle
>wrote:

> JG> the OTO, I am told, requires payments for various initiations. quite
> JG> large
> JG> payments, too, once you get into the higher grades.

>0 degree OTO   $20 initiation fee  $20 a year dues
>1 degree OTO   $20 initiation fee  $20 a year dues
>2 degree OTO   $20 initiation fee  $40 a year dues
>3 degree OTO   $20 initiation fee  $60 a year dues

 JG> hmmm...I thought the OTO had nine degrees. have they changed it?

No, I just couldn't remember the dues for the higher degrees :)

> JG> me, I have never joined any groups.

>Why not?

 JG> because I don't like politics and I have never seen a group without
 JG> same
 JG> is one reason. because I don't like hierarchies. because I don't like
 JG> oaths
 JG> (you will see in a bit one reason why).

I have seen why.  Good point.

 JG> josh

Gerald.

-- Via DLG Pro v0.991