HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 Home Protection Gun Recommendations Sought
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:04:20 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <52740@mimsy.umd.edu>, by kossack@owlnet.rice.edu (Jordan Marc Kossack):
# In article <52688@mimsy.umd.edu> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
# #
# #Hmmm, the FBI guy who finally managed to end the gunfight in
# #Miami didn't look like either Arnold or Superman.  It is pretty
# 
# 	If you're referring to "FBI: The Untold Stories" then   
#    recall that he was slow and had to use the car bumper as a  
#    a rest.  He wasn't able to close in and end hostilities until  
#    he rearmed with a handgun.  I guess a shotgun is OK for home 
#    defense (against 2-legged predators) iff you stay behind good 
#    cover ... like a four door sedan.  :-) 
#

Actually, I had in mind a waterbed ;-{).  Did they mention in the
untold stories version that the guy was dying on his feet before
fairly early in the fight?  I didn't catch if they mentioned it
or not.  I don't think they mentioned the MP5 (?) sub-guns that
the FBI guys left in the trunks of their cars.

# 	Of course, defensive needs are going to vary depending on  
#    one's situation.  The concerns of someone living in an urban 
#    hi-rise apartment will be different than a rural rancher.   
#

True. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas More)
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Clip prices?
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:55:35 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <53311@mimsy.umd.edu> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
...
#For anyone who wonders why it matters, apart from general quality
#considerations:  In the last firearms training class I attended,
#the instructor pointed out that if you were in a foxhole (for
#example) and just ran out of ammo, shouting for the fellow next
#to you to toss you a clip when you actually need a magazine might
#result in your getting killed due to the miscommunication.  Both
#clips and magazines exist, sometimes in the same caliber, and
#they are not at all the same thing.  The only thing they have in
#common is in holding a batch of ammo in one unit.

You're correct about the distinction, of course. As a matter of curiousity,
are there any current combat firearms that use clips, and not magazines? The
closest I can think of is the M1 Garand, and it doesn't qualify as
"current". 

I think removable magazines have pretty well replaced the clip concept in
combat arms. 

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: sybok@m4-035-17.MIT.EDU (The Terminator)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: APOCALYPSE AT HAND
Date: 13 Apr 92 02:22:28 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

[MODERATOR:  I pass this along as an informational posting, but ask that
the obvious and necessary responses be redirected to t.p.g. to save us the
volume here.  Thanks ... and may God save us all ... ]

This was taken from the Bullet-N-Board, (703) 971-4491.

Well, folks, it's finally happened!  When I saw this, I couldn't believe
it, then I thought my heart stopped!

Either way, the alarm must be sounded and the word must be spread as never
before to stop this nonsense!

THE FOLLOWING IS THE ACTUAL WORDING TAKEN FROM THE U.S. CONGRESS OF A BILL
TO REPEAL THE SECOND AMENDMENT!
===========================================================================
                         102d CONGRESS, 2d Session
                  ---------------------------------------
                              H. J. RES. 438
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States repealing
the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
                  ---------------------------------------
                      IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
                              MARCH 11, 1992
Mr. Major Owens of New York introduced the following joint resolution;
which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
                  ---------------------------------------
                             JOINT RESOLUTION
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States repealing
the Second Amendment to the Constitution.

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of
America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring
therein),

That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution
of the United States, which shall be valid for all intents and purposes as
part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths
of the several States within seven years after the date of its submission
for ratification:

                                 "ARTICLE
"The second article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States
is repealed.".

(This article stolen from talk.politics.guns.)
From: claris!drc@decwrl.dec.com (Dennis Cohen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Skeet/Trap Guns...Help!
Date: 16 Apr 92 22:29:07 GMT
Organization: Claris Corporation, Santa Clara CA


In rec.guns Joe Downing writes:

#Are there any Skeet/Trap shooters out there?  If so, could you please explain
#the difference between the weapons used for each?
#
Due to the differences in the games and the length of time it takes to play
a game, trap-shooters tend to shoot more rounds.  Since the trap shots tend
to be at a greater distance, the chokes tend to be tighter.  Since the trap
angles are unknown, you tend to swing the gun more and longer, heavier guns
are recommended to "swing through".  In general, a "Trap Gun" can be used for
Skeet quite easily with the substitution of a "skeet" choke; however, a Skeet
gun will usually be shorter than desired for trap.  The one time a Trap gun
can't be used for Skeet is when the gun is a single-shot, single-barrel
(because skeet shoots doubles from a few of the shooting stations).  A
Sporting Clays gun with replaceable chokes would be a good Skeet gun.
There is a pretty good book in the "Gun Digest" series on Trap, Skeet, and
Sporting Clays that also covers the history and international variations.
The author shows a bias in favor of the Remington 870, but most competitors
that I've seen seem to prefer Perazzis and Browning Citoris for Trap.

--
Dennis Cohen
Claris Corp.
 ****************************************************
Disclaimer:  Any opinions expressed above are _MINE_!
From: samsung!ulowell!echo.egr.msu.edu!marlow@uunet.UU.NET (Michael J Marlow)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Guns Laws, Transportation
Date: 13 Apr 92 02:22:21 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University

Keywords: State Laws, Permits, ...

      Does anyone know of a good sources which describe the gun laws as they
vary from state to state?  Specifically, pistol permits, and regarding transportation
of pistols in automotive vehicles.  Also, regarding semi-automatic assault rifles
such as AR-15's ?
        Any helpfull info would be most appreciated.

       Thanks,


       MiKe.
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:04:55 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <52744@mimsy.umd.edu>, gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar) writes:
# #Polar Bear joke from Farside I believe:
# #
# #A picture of two bears bent over an Igloo which has been broken open.
# #One bear is commenting to the other that he "just loves that chewy center". 
# #==========================================================================
# #[MODERATOR:  In all this discussion about polar bear, we have 
# #overlooked other basic safety practices, e.g., always go into
# #the wild equipped with a colleague who runs slower than you do.]
# 
# That is why they make Raven .25's. Handy for shooting your buddy in the leg.
# 


     I always thought the basic drill for using a .357 against bears
 was to put the first 5 rounds in the bears chest and save the last round
 for yourself! :-)



						John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: shopping in San Jose
Date: 10 Apr 92 02:19:12 GMT
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation

I am going to be in San Jose, CA next week & I was wondering what
are the good gun shops to visit?  I am interested in reloading
equipment and Browning Hi-Power magazines.  Can a foreigner like
me just walk into a California gun shop & buy things without tons
of paperwork?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla        | "I don't enforce the law, I regulate |
| CMC                      |  human behaviour"                    |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |    - Commissioner Scali              |
From: gerard@progress.COM (Gerard Bras)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:42:08 GMT
Organization: Progress Software Corp.

jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:

#Some bullets are made of copper as well (or so I have read).  Since
#neither or us is a metallurgist, neither or us can say for sure unless
#we go out and shoot at sheets of steel on the range.

##As far as I know, it is air temp that ignites diesel (>800F), not the pressure
##directly.  Though it *is* the pressure that will raise the cylinder air temp
##that high.  This is from memory, so I may be wrong...

#That you may be right about since you need something equivalent to a
#spark plug to start a diesel engine up.  But diesel itself is no where
#near as volatile as gasoline.

Nope,  in cold weather you may preheat the head or fuel to ease starting, but
a diesel engine >operates< from the heat of compression.  There is no spark
plug in a diesel, what you're thinking of is a glow plug used for combustion
chamber pre-heat.  I run a diesel engine frequently and almost never use
the pre-heat.

I know this is getting far afield from firearms.  While I'm here though
I'd like to thank y'all for providing a lot of instruction and advice
to a novice.

-gb-

[MODERATOR:  ... ummm, yeah ... far afield from our charter.  I think
the question has pretty much been hashed over, let's move on....]
From: george@cs.purdue.edu (Michael J. George)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:30:35 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University


In article <53029@mimsy.umd.edu>, jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:
# 
# It just takes one spark to ignite gasoline.  So yes, it is possible, but
# highly unlikely with only one shot.  What will never happen is a bullet
# igniting diesel.  Diesel ignites under compression, not a spark.

It is quite difficult to light fluid gasoline.  Very easy to light vapors.  Thatis why you can shoot full gas cans, trucks, barrels, etc.  But if you should
make a spark in vapors, look out.  And if I remember right, neither lead nor
brass will spark on steel, so that shouldn't be a problem.

As far as I know, it is air temp that ignites diesel (>800F), not the pressure
directly.  Though it *is* the pressure that will raise the cylinder air temp
that high.  This is from memory, so I may be wrong...
-- 
Michael George
george@cs.purdue.edu
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: resizing .223 for Mini-14
Date: 10 Apr 92 23:20:40 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

Since it looks like I'm going to have to reload to shoot my Mini 14 at the
outdoor range (they don't allow FMJ, and anything else is prohibitively
expensive), I have a question: do I have to resize the whole length of the
case if I'm going to shoot it in the same Mini 14 each time? (I've done a
lot of straight-walled pistol cartridge reloading, but this is my first
venture into the rifle domain.)

Also, what's the best deal on cannelured soft point bullets? (Midway has
Winchester 55 grain for around $25 for 500.)

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotguns vs Handguns (was: Gun Recommendations Sought)
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:05:32 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <52611@mimsy.umd.edu> lriggins@galaxy.afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins) writes:
:In article <52601@mimsy.umd.edu> bp816@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stuart Krivis) writes:
:|One thing no one has mentioned...  Don't use handloads for self-
:|defense. They will make you out to be a monster in court if you
:|ever actually have to shoot someone.
:
:Why?  I doubt anyone is going to distinguish my handloads of Remington JHP
:in Remington cases from the factory ammo.
:
:Maurice          lriggins@blackbird.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.2)

First of all, it quite easy for a forensic investigator to distinguish
between factory ammo and reloads.

Secondly, the prosecutor (yes, in most jurisdictions and most of the
time,
there will be a legal proceeding if you
shoot someone, even if it is the most righteous self-defense) will
make procesutorial hay out of the fact that you pursposfully concocted
the "very deadly, evil" handloads, regardless of the acutual lethality
of the load.

Lee

"Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei."

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
:
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Tokarev, Makarov. Any good?
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:03:50 GMT


The Helwan Brigadier is a nice piece and a good value, although IMHO it
has some design quirks. The Tokarevs don't seem to work all that well in
9mm, based on my experience as well as other postings here.

The Makarov is in another class. In it's original 9mm Makarov chambering
the ammo is ball only and sometimes hard to find. The Chinese Makarovs
as well as a few other guns originally chambered for the 9mmM cartridge
are also available in .380 ACP, which is a step down from 9mmP.

Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS
From: jackson@bluemoon.rn.com (jack cole)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: PEN GUN
Date: 13 Apr 92 02:22:25 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])

dbruce@athena.mit.edu (David M Bruce) writes:

# In article <53004@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-1.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writ
# #Where could I get a pen gun?
# 
# Nowhere, they're illegal (at least in MA).

Not true!  They are legal in the US, baring local laws, if you get a 
"all other weapos" tax 

stamp. Armitage International makes the "hornet" pen gun which comes 
in cal's .22lr, .25, .380 and 9mm.

Another american company is coming out with one that is considered legal
as a pistol by BATF because before firing you swivel it part way down 
so tht it has a "grip".



Is fearr an troid na` an t-uaigneas
               -  The Rambo Republican
The Rambo Republican
From: c9e-bw@danube.berkeley.edu (Kenneth Chen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 9mm Makarov and 9mm police
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:50:54 GMT


The only ammunition that I found for Makarov is corrosive Chinese steel jacket
type.  You are supposedly able to shoot 9mm police round through Makarov.  The
Fiochi of America advertises 9mm police and other hard to get ammunitions; they
are noncorrosive with reloadable brass.  I haven't seen the ammunitions at local
store, though.  You probably have to order directly from them.
From: berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com (Lex mala, lex nulla  13-Apr-1992 1007)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Someone looking for clibs in Michigan or NY
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:34:07 GMT

This is posted for a co-worker at his request.

PLEASE RESPOND VIA E-MAIL TO: grayson@trooa.enet.dec.com
    
    	Pistol Clubs in Michigan or New York
    
    The University of Western Ontario Rifle and Pistol Club is currently
    undertaking a study to identify areas where we might shoot in the
    States.
    
    Naturally they would welcome participation with other clubs here in
    London Ontario. 
    
    Knowing that the transport of pistols is a bit difficult (several
    members do it regularly) the hope is to increase the frequency and thus
    make our lives a bit easier when the need to visit the US comes up.
    Similarly it would be a benefit to anyone who has wanted to shoot in
    Canada, but has perhaps felt that the hassle is too great.
    
    Of course we are not limiting things to just clubs or teams in the
    immediate area - it just seems likely that we will go as far as is
    comfortable to drive!
    
    As SAEI (self appointed Easynotes Interregator) I have taken it upon
    myself to post his note... unfortunately most of the regulars seem to
    live in New England areas - alas...
    
    Any ideas Gentlepeople?
    
    Bruce the Politically Correct
    
.............................................................................

Hal Berenson	

Home: 71640.3535@compuserve.com
Work: berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com

-- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own, not my employer's! If
I happen to communicate with you from work rather than home, its just
for convenience (just like asking for a "daytime phone number") and should
not be construed as representing the views of my employer or its
employees, officers, directors, or stockholders. --
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Mini 14 info
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:13:08 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

I just picked up a Ruger Mini 14 Ranch Rifle at a gun show, and I'd be
interested in hearing from other Mini 14 owners out there about a couple of
questions I have.

What level of accuracy can I expect from this rifle? (I haven't had it out
to the range yet.) 

I've followed the discussion about how different rifling twists affect the
stability of .223 bullets. Is this an issue for the Mini 14? If so, what
type of ammo should I use and avoid? 

Speaking of ammo, what are your experiences with the cheap imported stuff?
Do any of you reload .223? Is it worth it? What are your favorite loads?


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Tokarev, Makarov. Any good?
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:12:24 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <53248@mimsy.umd.edu> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:

#The Makarov is in another class. In its original 9mm Makarov chambering
#the ammo is ball only and sometimes hard to find. The Chinese Makarovs
#as well as a few other guns originally chambered for the 9mmM cartridge
#are also available in .380 ACP, which is a step down from 9mmP.

The 380 ACP is also a small step down from the 9mm Makarov.  Good brass for 
the Makarov is easy to come by: you just trim standard 9mm para cases and
you've got perfect 9mm Makarov cases.  No need to thin case necks or anything
boring like that.  The pistol itself is very reliable, at least my sample is.
Really, the only ammo problem is the bullet diameter.  The Makarov has a 9mm 
_bore_ rather than a 9mm groove-to-groove dimension like the 9mm para & 9mm 
kurz.  So bullets are hard to come by.  I've been considering bumping up 
standard bullets.  Loading dies for the Mak are expensive but 9mm para dies 
will do if you change the expander ball to one with a larger diameter.  
Incidentally, a Russian expatriate told me it's pronounced "maKARov" (in case 
you're interested).  

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "GLOCK" - A Book.
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:05:42 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <52555@mimsy.umd.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#
#  I just got a book which will turn on all Glock enthusiasts.  I'll
#read it soon and post a review, but I'm not sure that true enthusiasts
#will want to wait.  Here's a book with history, technology, functioning,
#maintenance, tables of specs, pictures of guns and accessories, etc.  It 
#even has a Chapter on the Model 18.  (That's not a typo!)  
#
#GLOCK
#The New Wave in Combat Handguns
#Peter Alan Kasler
#Paladin Press, Boulder  1992
#ISBN 0-87364-649-5  5 1/2" x 8 3/4" 296 + viii pp hardbound
#
#--henry schaffer  n c state univ
#

Henry,
A Glock book highlighted by a revolver lover?  Amazing!
BDW

[MODERATOR:  Caution is indicated ... we haven't actually SEEN
what kind of review is coming, so it could be something simple
like "Why write a book about these durn glockenspiels..."]
From: andy@sail.stanford.edu (Andy Freeman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Fire Forming your Brass - questions
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:31:10 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.

#	I need to fire form some brass for my wildcat.  It's a
#necked down .348 Winchester (Ackley 30-348).
#...
#I've heard that 1/2 charge loads work well.

In their sales literature, the Ackley folks specifically state that
one should fire form with full power loads, that lesser charges don't
do the trick.  (Of course, they also say that you can't necessarily
visually detect the difference, that half loads flow the brass
differently.)

I'd wait for the books and ask the Ackley folks for sure.

-andy
-- 
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: machine gun shoot
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:28:00 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

wernewa@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Wayne A. Werne) writes:
# Well I guess its about that time of year again -- the second weekend of
# April.  The semiannual Knob Creek, KY machine gun shoot should be coming
# up and I wonder if anyone out there can confirm whether it is indeed on
# the 10, 11, and 12?  Replies before that time would be appreciated.  I know
# how to get there but I need to know when to get there.
# Thanks
# wernewa@sage.cc.purdue.edu   aka   Wayne Werne   aka   W^2

NO!!!
It is the weekend of April 24th through the 26th!!!
Camping is available on-site.
The main attraction is the saturday night "Night Shoot"!
If anyone has any questions about where the range is etc, send email.
We are going to camp out this time. After the saturday night shoot, they have
a live band, free food and beer! 
Ahh... free music, food, beer, and the smell of gunpowder in the air... :)