From: nobby@hardy.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 09:36:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.080755.12340@cis.ohio-state.edu> khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:
>In article <1992Nov22.064332.13347@u.washington.edu> nobby@hardy.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov22.054749.7481@cis.ohio-state.edu> khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:
>>

[... I deleted the story. If Dima considers it unimportant then it makes
     no sense to send it back and forth. ...]

>>You see, I'm not a Christian. But is there any need to churn in hatred
>>and bring wild accusations which in this case are also totally
>groundless?
>
>They are not groundless. And I know that many people are not going
>to like this, but if that's what it takes to stay Jewish, then yes. But
>Orthodox Jews don't hate xtians, although I am sure some do (can't blame
>them either, I personally have a lot of reasons to hate them, but I
>don't, believe it or not I don't). Now, ideal is not to hate anybody,
>but if we are deciding between hating a xian and being a Jew then yes
>you should definately choose hating a xian. Although, it is better to
>remain a Jew and not hate a xian. See, things like this come up and they
>would never have came up in an Orthodox setting, there is not need for
>them to come up. You don't hate people, that's all. It is one of our
>main believes: Love another like you love yourself.

Well, I don't like the particular way you put it but basically I agree. 
'Being a Jew' is very important for me although I am aware of various
interpretations of Jewishness. However, I would abhor making a choice
between being a Jew and not hating somebody. If 'being a Jew' in an
otherwise peaceful situation involves hatred to another human being
there must be some fundamental flaw in one's concept of Jewishness.

Let me talk about it straightforwardly. I am proud of being a Jew
but I adamantly refuse to discriminate among other people on the basis
of their religious affiliation or ethnicity. If, G-d forbid, I find myself
in a situation where I must choose I will most definitely opt for being a Jew 
but not as blithely as you would do it.

[... deletions ...]

>>When your sermons remained within the framework of Judaism they looked fine. 
>>But once you ventured outside you indiscriminately smeared a lot of people
>>in a couple of wide sweeps. They might be 'goyim' for you. But if this is
>>the case how can you expect them to treat *your* beliefs with due respect if 
>>they happen not to share them?
>>
>>nobby@u.washington.edu
>>
>>[... rest deleted ...]
>
>Note, that there is a big difference between goyim and xians. xians are
>goyim, but goyim are not necessarily xtians. Now if they are xtians then
>it is not the place for them to complain. They can read it they can even
>respond, nobody is saying they can't respond, but I am not considering
>them as part of this newsgroup and will simply not respond. It is enough
>troble to worry about people that are going to misinterpret what I said,
>if I am going to worry about xtians too... I don't really care. It is
>like would get offended at me writing the name of j. not capitalized.
>Could they get offended at that? Yes. Am I going to start writing it the
>way they write it and care if they get offended if I don't? NO, I won't.
>This is a Jewish newsgroup, so I don't really care if I am going to say
>something offensive to xians because I assume that they should not be
>reading it anyway. With any other newsgroup is another issue, but with
>this one, that is it.
>

*shrug* I do not understand. You offend people when they're not present.
In my book this is not polite. You shouldn't worry about misinterpretation
since your message was clear enough. I happen to dislike it *as a Jew*.
I think your posting is insultive not only because it demonstrates 0 amount of 
tolerance (which is your right that I'm not going to challenge) but also 
because it makes some very arguable claims to sustain the point (and here I 
step in because I do not believe your facts are correct on any major scale).

>You said that you are not a xtian. Well, the way you put it you are not
>Jewish either. What are you? Am I right to say that you are from Russia?

Yes, I am from Russia and I am as Jewish as you are (oops! I'm not a Kohen :-).
If you imply religion as a criterium for Jewishness then I am not a Jew
along with millions of other unreligious Jews. You see, I sincerely tried
to adopt religion as the way of life. Unfortunately, my attempt was to no
avail because I was unable to reconciliate my view of the world as a student
of science with the religious prospective touted by Judaism.

I believe in intellectual honesty. Either I put up with the notion that, say,
evolution is a hoax and the word of RAMBAM is worth more than a bunch of
Nobel laureats with their microscopes and accelerators, or I put Talmud
away and return to my textbooks. Don't pick on evolution, I have dozens
of other examples in stock. Your choice is valid but so is mine.
I cannot come from synagogue to my cognitive science class and believe
simultaneously that a). whatever I think and cognate is inspired by some
supreme being, and b). it's a peculiar pattern of activation in the neural
network cells that underlies all my feelings and perceptions. Maybe a bad 
example though.  It's too late and I can't find Feynman's book where he 
describes his visit to some L.A. yeshiva. Wording is mine: "while the world is
so infinitely complex and contains so many mysteries that are only
starting to unveil these guys waste their time delving into millenium-old
books and lock their horns over the cryptic meaning of some aramaic symbol
which gives them no knowledge whatsoever about the universe in all its
unimaginable sophistication." I simply do not believe in the power of
Talmud or even Torah for that matter. But I do believe in the power of
scientific approach to things which, alas, doesn't get along with the
religious one.

I expect a reasoned argument. And please stick to the facts and think twice
before you post next time that churches give 2 points to everybody who
converts a Jew while regular prozelytes are worth only 1. 

>
>Thanks,
>Dima
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
>  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
>   khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio, USA)

nobby@u.washington.edu

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish