HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lavonius@plootu.Helsinki.FI (Ville Lavonius)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 3 Oct 92 09:58:19 GMT
Organization: Cthulhoid Entities for a Better Tomorrow

In article <1992Oct2.192353.11513@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis S. Casey) writes:

   I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
   would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
   the following stuff:

   D & D :        First RPG system
   Champions:     first point-creation system, logarithmic attributes
   MS & PE:       First use of any attribute + any skill for doing things
   Shadowrun:     First "count-each-die separately" system
   Runequest:     First %-ile system (not full percentile, but...)
   CORPS:         Attempts to reduce die rolling, squared attributes.
   Amber:         Diceless play, character auction.
   Star Wars:     First use of character "templates"
   James Bond:    First use of action table.

Torg 		First game to have something supplement the die (a deck of
		cards).
Over the Edge	First game where there are no universal skills/abilities.
DragonQuest	First game to be reissued as a boardgame :-(

   As you can probably see, I'm interested mainly in what mechanics were
   introduced by what system, rather than a chronology.

   Travis
   picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu
   "He-who-has-no-.sig"
--
Ville Lavonius	        University of Helsinki, Dept. of Computer Science
lavonius@cc.helsinki.fi : "Some of my best friends are nukes" - R. Reagan
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 13:20:23 GMT

blum@news.ils.nwu.edu (Daniel Blum) writes:
>I believe that Bunnies & Burrows (FGU, designed by B. Dennis Sustare)
>was the first RPG to use skill improvements rather than arbitrary
>"level" increases as benefits for experience.  

Not quite correct.  B&B didn't use skill improvements, but did expand
on the level system: it allowed a character to raise a level in each of
his eight attributes separately.  There were no skills as such, just
attributes - though you could say there were eight skill groupings, if
you wanted.  But you could be a level 0 Strength bunny with a level 3
Dexterity, level 6 Speed, level 2 Smell, etc.

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: nukenin@access.digex.com (R. Cliff Young)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: Talas Nukenin, courtesy of Express Access
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:08:40 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.192353.11513@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu writes:
>I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
>would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
>the following stuff:
>
[stuff deleted]
>
>As you can probably see, I'm interested mainly in what mechanics were
>introduced by what system, rather than a chronology.
>
>Travis

How about:

Top Secret (original)	First maneuver-based diceless combat system
			(used for martial arts and other hand-to-hand
			combat)

It may have not been the first, but it was the first I was aware of
(and this was circa '79-'80, I believe).  Basically, players chose
attacks and/or defenses, then looked up the results in an appropriate
table.  The results were in terms of "damage categories," so dice were
still used to determine the actual damage.

Maybe Top Secret/S.I. also deserves a mention for its replacement of
the above system with a speedy little system in which (usually) one
die roll determined success, location, AND damage of an attack.  (This
may not have been the first occurrence of such a system, however.)
-- 
 R. Cliff Young --/\/-- Work: cliff@sfn.ORG | Fun: nukenin@access.digex.com
 Phone: (703)573-0913 (USA) | GEnie: R.YOUNG52 | AOL: GrimWolfe (@aol.com)
 Mail: 7374 Arlington Blvd., Falls Church, VA  USA  22042-1515     /QR:RFO:SID
 "I'll teach you to laugh and to cry // They're really the same you'll see..."
From: appelo@dutiag.tudelft.nl (C.J. Appelo)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: OOP in game design
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:21:08 GMT


Hi there,

I'm a student at the University of Technology in Delft (Holland) and I would
like to know if there are some people around somewhere who could help me a
little with my current study project.

I am trying to find out if object-oriented programming could be of any help
in designing computer games. There are some questions I would like to spread
around here:

1. Does anybody know if a study on this matter has already been done? Maybe
there are some people who already evaluated the possibilities of doing things
the object-oriented way in game-making activities. Names of persons or titles
of books/articles would be very welcome. (Although I am afraid that nobody
can help me with this one.)

2. Can someone tell me if OO is already been used by the professional
software designers? I'm trying to contact such people, but this could be a
very difficult job.

3. Are there some readers who know a lot of "The Art of Game Design" (quoting
Chris Crawford). I could use some information on the many topics concerning
the making of games, like A.I., graphics, sound, whatever. Especially the more
technical info could be interesting. For example, are there important issues
that make OO unusable in some cases? (And a lot more of such questions...)

Ok well, if someone feels able to send me something interesting, please don't
let him/her hesitate.

Bye, Jurgen.

E-mail: APPELO@DUTIBA.TWI.TUDELFT.NL
From: blum@news.ils.nwu.edu (Daniel Blum)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 3 Oct 92 16:54:28 GMT
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

I believe that Bunnies & Burrows (FGU, designed by B. Dennis Sustare)
was the first RPG to use skill improvements rather than arbitrary
"level" increases as benefits for experience.  Perrin then adapted
this idea for Runequest.

--
_____________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum           Institute for the Learning Sciences   Room 327
blum@ils.nwu.edu   1890 Maple Ave., Evanston, IL 60201   708-467-2306

"By the power vested in me by my own over-inflated ego, I now 
 declare this bridge officially open."
_____________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: rob@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Rob Chauncey)
Subject: Books on arcade game design
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Distribution: rec.games.design; rec.games.int-fiction
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 16:36:27 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Does anyone know of books on arcade game design?  I want a (hopefully)
tecchie-intensive look at them, i.e. how they work, what the hardware
does, etc.  I need to learn this stuff...
Thanks a lot for your time...

--
+---------------------------------------+
|Rob Chauncey - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
|rob@occs.cs.oberlin.edu- - - - - - - - |
+---------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: vaccari@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (matteo vaccari)
Subject: Re: Graphics and Games
Organization: Computer Science Dep. - Milan University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 10:03:30 GMT

larrow@novell.com (Les Arrow) writes:

>Hi All,

>I've always been real interested in creating computer games, mostly of the
>role playing type. My stumbling block has always been graphics. 1) I can
>not draw worth a lick. 2) Even if I could, I have almost no idea of how
>to incorporate them (code wise) into a game.

>I look at all the neat engines game companies are coming out with and I want
>to get involved. Any suggestions for reading material?

>--Les

Companies like Origin have a whole lot of programmers, and artists.
It would be hard to compete with them them as an hobbyist.
Yet it isn't necessary!  I think good computerized RPGs can be built
with little or even no graphics.  You could just print 
ASCII drawings of the rooms the characters are in, like in
the Hack-Rogue-Moria tradition.  Or make the game a text-based
adventure-type game.

What really matters in a computerized RPG is the complexity of 
interaction with NPCs and with the environment.

Matteo
-- 
Matteo Vaccari                  tel.    +39-2-55006347
Dipartimento di Informatica     fax.    +39-2-55006348
Universita` di Milano           e-mail: vaccari@ghost.unimi.it
From: klein@frith.egr.msu.edu (Jeffrey Klein)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 4 Oct 92 22:11:47 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University College of Stunt Piloting

In article <1992Oct2.192353.11513@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu writes:
>I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
>would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
>the following stuff:
>

>James Bond:    First use of action table.
 
 Also the first use of "Hero Points", I think.  It also had wounds
 instead of hit points -- was this done before?

Empire of the Petal Throne:  First game and gameworld combination --
			     again, I think.  Or "detailed" gameworld.

Traveller: No experience points.  No way to advance your skills
	   and abilities at all!  The adventure is its own goal.

Tunnels and Trolls:  "Spell points" -- subtract from fatigue (strength)


-- 
Jeff Klein             | "Happily, Ral doffs his outer clothing for a
Browsing Boy of the LNH|  refreshing dip in one of the dangerous 
klein@frith.egr.msu.edu|  chemical vats." - Ty Templeton
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Sequential movement in wargames
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:00:35 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <1992Oct5.222129.14318@progress.com>, by neil@progress.COM (Neil Galarneau):
> johnr@cat13.cs.wisc.edu (John Richards) writes:
>>talking about one where each player executes a move and attack with a single
>>piece, and then his opponent does the same with one of his, until one side has

> _Flashpoint: Golan_ uses a system like this.
> It is better than one piece at a time because units do things in groups.

The Tank Leader games from West End have a similar system, but based
on card play instead of chits.  Every (tank) company, which will have
2-5 counters on the board, is activated by playing a card marked with
its command control rating (quality of officers and communications
equipment).  If you have a better-rated card, you may interrupt this
and move that unit first.

The net effect is: Better units decide when to move and can therefore
be used to foil the plans of weaker ones.  Tanks in the same company
move together.  Use of higher-level HQs (also represented by cards)
gives additional flexibility, because units of several companies may
be activated at the same time, under certain restrictions.

Victory Games' Lee vs Grant moves single pieces at any one time, but a
die roll is used to decide which player gets the next chance to move a
piece (with the Confederates winning ties).  Thus, one player may get
the chance to move most of his pieces before the other can react (but
if he counted on a certain sequence, he may leave himself wide open if
his luck runs out).
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Sequential movement in wargames
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1992 16:00:34 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

A slight variation on the "You move, then I move, then you..." is what the
WWII:ETO game uses.  In order to attack you activate one (sometimes more) 
headquarters for an offensive.  Each HQ can only control a limited number 
of pieces.  After your offensive is over your opponent then can take an
offensive and so on.

The back and forth flow of the offensives is one of my favorite parts of the 
game.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: neil@progress.COM (Neil Galarneau)
Subject: Re: Sequential movement in wargames
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:21:29 GMT

johnr@cat13.cs.wisc.edu (John Richards) writes:

>  I'm
>talking about one where each player executes a move and attack with a single
>piece, and then his opponent does the same with one of his, until one side has
>finished, at which point his opponent finshes executing with his remaining
>units.

_Flashpoint: Golan_ uses a system like this.  Each division has a chit.  When
it is movement time, chits get drawn randomly from a cup with that division
moving all its men.

It is a pretty good system, but it means that you have to add a house rule
to have a multi-division attack.

It is better than one piece at a time because units do things in groups.


Neil
neil@progress.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: carl@gergo.tamu.edu (Carl D. Perkins)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Geochemical and Environmental Research Group - TAMU
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 02:03:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.221147.6526@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, klein@frith.egr.msu.edu (Jeffrey Klein) writes...
>Traveller: No experience points.  No way to advance your skills
>	   and abilities at all!  The adventure is its own goal.
> 
>Jeff Klein             | "Happily, Ral doffs his outer clothing for a

Actually, this is not quite true. There are no experience points, but there
is a way to increase skills and attributes. In the back of one of the 3 basic
books is a 2 page section on how to improve a character. Basically, it is an
extension of the character generation system - you enter into a self-imposed
4-year program of improvement for a specific attribute or skill; I think you
ara allowed to do two simultaneaously, 1 attribute and 1 skill or something
like that. I'm a little fuzzy on what happens next - the skill/attribute is
either increased after some ammount of time into the program (2 years maybe)
or at the end of the program, however the increase is *temporary* - it only
lasts for as long as the program is continued - unless you complete a second
4-year program (with no break inbetween) for the same skill/attribute. After
the end of the second program, the increase is complete. You can adventure
during this time period, as the training is not so intensive as to take all
your time - just a little time every day or a few times a week (I don't think
it gives any specifics). I seem to recall some mention of another method that
may occasionally be used, something along the lines of "the GM can grant an
increase in a skill" as well (which is not exactly as systematic approach).

This is probably the *slowest* advancement system ever put in a game. It takes
8 game years to permanantly improve a skill or attribute by 1 level.

--- Carl
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:40:19 GMT

"Peter F. Delaney" <pd1x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>lavonius@cc.helsinki.fi (Ville Lavonius) claims:

>> Torg 		First game to have something supplement the die (a deck of
>>		cards).


>	No, this is incorrect.  White Wolf (then under a different name)
>introduced Whimsey Cards as a separate product to go with Ars Magica
>prior to TORG.

That is as a later supplement. 
But I suggest that Lace&Steel may not have only been the first to use cards,
but the only to use cards for combat entirely.


hook
From: johnson@rtsg.mot.com (Brad Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:47:52 GMT
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group

picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis S. Casey) writes:

>I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
>would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
>the following stuff:

>Shadowrun:     First "count-each-die separately" system


I seem to remember that Space 1889 used a "count the 6-sideds"
system, and I also believe that it was out before Shadowrun.

Just muddying the waters,
Brad Johnson (johnson@ebony.rtsg.mot.com)
From: jamie@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jamieson Norrish)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Graphics and Games
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:42:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: kauri.JAMIE.92Oct7104237
 i.FI><1992Oct5.163154.18566@newshost.unh.edu><1992Oct5.184509.5835@novell.com><1992Oct6.100330.24471@ghost.dsi.unimi.it>
Organization: /u/student/jamie/.organization

In article <1992Oct6.100330.24471@ghost.dsi.unimi.it> vaccari@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (matteo vaccari) writes:

   the Hack-Rogue-Moria tradition.  Or make the game a text-based
   adventure-type game.

   What really matters in a computerized RPG is the complexity of 
   interaction with NPCs and with the environment.

It might well be worth while, if the original poster does want to move
to text-based and interactive computer games, to have a look at
rec.arts.int-fiction, which deals specifically with these sorts of
games.

Jamie
Newsgroups: rec.games.xtank.programmer
From: stripes@eng.umd.edu (Josh Osborne)
Subject: Re: Reply to: Re: Reply to: Re: 3-d stuff
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 16:39:42 GMT
Organization: Project GLUE, Merriversity of Uniland, College Purgatory

In article <9209291600.AA02025@scintilla.capitola.ca.us> Darren Senn <sinster@scintilla.capitola.ca.us> writes:
[...]
>I like the _concept_ of 3D views, but a rather extreme problem has to be
>solved first: field of view.  Most flight simulators around nowadays are
>3D, but they have a horrible field of view.  Usually this is imposed by
>the shape of the viewable screen (width/height = 3/2).  They try to solve
>the problem by letting you turn your head with cryptic keystrokes, but
>there are almost always still blind spots.  A program could use a narrow
>horizontal band to get the wide angle view, but then your view resolution
>suffers.  I wouldn't want to play race with less than a 120 degree view
>angle.

Well logitech does make a head tracker, or mabie the price of VR helmets
will take a suddon plunge before someone writes the 3D code :-)
-- 
           stripes@eng.umd.edu          "Security for Unix is like
      Josh_Osborne@Real_World,The          Multitasking for MS-DOS"
      "The dyslexic porgramer"                  - Kevin Lockwood
            "NFS only behaves properly..."                  - jik@athena
                "...when the computer is not drawing power." - rbj@uunet
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.xtank.programmer,rec.games.xtank.play
Subject: Limited Nuclear War
Summary: 'til they glow in the dark
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:15:47 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology


  After fighting a large number of xtank (combat) battles involving nukes 
against 3-4 human opponents I think I know how to balance the tac nukes. 

  After a short while most of our designs started to gravitate towards a
common ground: A totally stripped Hexo with cheap minimal armour and lacking
almost all specials. The cheapest tanks were on the order of $21000 or $22000.
Personal preference determined if the nuke was mounted in the turret or fixed 
mounted in the front.

  One might think that a big ugly tank wearing factor 800+ crumple might clean
the arena of the smaller tanks, and it will do so, but it will be worth so much
that it gives the killer around 60000 to 100000 point in one fell swoop.

  $22000 is very cheap for a tank compared to most non-nuke tanks which cost
between $100000 and $200000, so despite having significantly inferior weaponry,
a conventional tank is at a points-wise disadvantage.

  If we look at the relative costs of different weapons we see that the tac 
nuke is a relatively cheap weapon compared to Heatseekers, pocketrockets,
unguided missiles and, expecially, anti-radiation missiles. But compared to
those, a tac nuke is at least ten times as effective.

  My suggestion is that the price of the tac nukes is increased to at least
$150000, possibly twice as much, and that will enable combat on an equal 
footing between nuke and non-nuke tanks.

  The speed of the nukes could also possibly be reduced to 25 or even lower.

 (BTW: I think the pendulum of balance have gone to far in the other direction
       with regards to anti-radiation missiles: Why not give them the same
       damage value as all the other missiles, a range of 1500 to 3000, reload
       as heat-seekers and a magasine of 10 (And change the damned side-
       mount requirement to make them conform to Xtank standards!)

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
"This is the famous Hasan B Mutlu-trigger, insert it in your .sig file today!"
Newsgroups: rec.games.xtank.programmer
From: zagar@chester.cms.udel.edu (Randy Zagar)
Subject: Porcelain armour invulnerable ?
Reply-To: zagar@chester.cms.udel.edu
Organization: Marine Studies, University of Delaware
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 03:39:30 GMT

I'm running version 1.3f on a Sun-4 and the porcelain armor never seems
to take any damage.  Anybody got any ideas as to where this bug lies ???

-Randy


---
 _____________________________________________________________________________
/                                                                             \
| Randy Zagar                            Get your priorities straight.        |
| Internet: zagar@Chester.CMS.UDel.Edu   No one on their death bed ever said  |
| Bell-net: 302/831-1139                 "Gee, if I'd only spent more time    |
|                                        at the office..."                    |
\_____________________________________________________________________________/

Xref: sparky rec.games.xtank.programmer:515 rec.games.xtank.play:269
From: wjb@moscom.com (Bill de Beaubien)
Newsgroups: rec.games.xtank.programmer,rec.games.xtank.play
Subject: Re: Limited Nuclear War
Date: 30 Sep 92 14:21:27 GMT
Reply-To: wjb@moscom.com
Organization: Moscom Corp., Pittsford NY
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Bertil Jonell (d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se) wrote:
:   My suggestion is that the price of the tac nukes is increased to at least
: $150000, possibly twice as much, and that will enable combat on an equal 
: footing between nuke and non-nuke tanks.

I've been running with nukes at $160000 for several months now.  Bascially,
it works out kinda like this, under most circumstances:

most of the nuke vehicles are hexos or spiders with 1 nuke;  given a malice
with fusion, spiked treads, 2 acid sprayers and 4 heavy MG's, no team play
or any such, we tend to get the following results:

1 player with nukes, 1 with a malice - the malice cleans up
2 with nukes, 1 with malice - more competitive, but the malice often wins
3 with nukes, 1 with malice - much more difficult to win with the malice

Basically, nukes have two major disadvantages:
	1 - it's easy to off yourself, esp. with ricochet
	2 - they're fast enough that if you fire them at a moving target, they
		sometimes go right through the target.  (due to the collision
		detection mechanism not picking up that they actually intersected
		at a point where they weren't drawn)

Of course, someone with a hexo with a couple acid sprayers can clean out
people with nukes.  It's so cheap, and the nuke hexos are so lightly 
armored that it's easy to do;  in fact, you can actually win in a hexo
with no armor.
-- 
"Bless me, Father; I ate a lizard."
"Was it an abstinence day, and was it artificially prepared?"
-------------------------------------------------------------
Bill de Beaubien / wjb@moscom.com