HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Subject: Re: Bill 88 Biased towards the french
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:12:35 GMT

In article <1992Oct30.193309.8390@pandora.matrox.com> thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
>901003l@ace.acadiau.ca (MISHA LEBLANC) writes:
>
>>Frank Mackenna, the premier of New Brunswick, plans to proceed ahead with 
>>his bill 88.
>>[...]
>>WE, THE NON FRENCH, won't be able to use it.  Its NOT REVERSIBLE.  
>
>The actual omnipresence of English-language services versus the scarcity of
>French services isn't reversible either.
>
>Down with COR.
>

If you are paranoid, here is something to think about.

Quebec will secede, then Maritimes will be isolated.
This will hold for say 10 years.
Then, Maritimes will decide to improve the system.

So, they will have to choose between
- Statu quo
- Become French speaking and join Quebec
- Join USA

Is McKenna preparing the second way?
Why?  Francos are 40% of NB.  Between satisfying 40% (actually more than
that because not all Anglophones are unilingual and some are ready to
either come back to ancestors' language or to learn another language to
improve their situation; so between satisfying 40+% and satisfying say
10% (those who will prefer isolated Maritimes), NB could choice to join
the Quebec and to be francophone.

Then, NS, PEI and NF will be isolated.  They will have the same choice.
This is in more than 20 years.  Obviously, NF won't move or will join
the USA.  NS case is more complex, like PEI.  If there is an economical
decline because of isolation, it is possible that the Francophones revive
and grow in proportion (if Anglophones leave).

I understand this is pure speculation.  But, isn't racism a la CoR based
on this kind of speculations?

P.S.  Our news are now 10 days too late.  This is something like travel
in outer space.  I am 10 days-light from Earth.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Ge'ne'alogiste des familles : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  NOTE: news get in 7 days later.  Please answer/flame by email
\_.-===  Ope'rateur de "Racines du Que'bec" (514) 922-9636 BBS/Genealogie
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:8330 can.politics:9400
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:58:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BxB3A2.4D9.1
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <1992Nov6.125026.22074@access.usask.ca> (Gerry Gryschuk) writes:


   From article <Bx859J.8rq.1@cs.cmu.edu>, by clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen):
   > In article <1992Nov3.180423.20635@sfu.ca> schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck) writes:
   > 
   >    It is easier to ship goods to the Pacific Rim than it is to ship them
   >    back to the rest of Canada. Plus, there is no free trade in Canada.
   > 
   > Having different labelling laws in BC from the rest of Canada would be
   > adding a new barrier to free trade when everyone agrees that the
   > barriers should go away.

   No this doesn't follow. Goods destined for Quebec,New Brunswick
   etc. from TROC would be labeled in both languages, goods destined
   from Quebec,NB etc. to TROC would be labeled in both languages.
   Goods destined for internal comsumption or for comsumption in a
   province with similar demographics would have a single language on
   the labels whatever the case may be. This makes only good business
   sense and doesn't need to be mandated.

   Thus just get rid of all labelling laws dealing with language and
   it will take care of itself.

Labelling laws are not there to promote national bilingualism.  They
are there to enforce fair and uniform advertising on consumer goods.

And, as I have realized during this discussion, bilingual labelling
promotes interprovincial trade.

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:54:25 GMT

Please use the smileys when you tell a joke...

In article <1d5a6bINN4sc@dragon.cs.ubc.ca> acton@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Acton) writes:
>Canada. An example of this is sheets. The major textile mills in North
>America are in the north eastern US if I am not mistaken. All of the
>product produced there is labelled only in English. When it is shipped

Instead of somedays putting a bilingual label and some days a unilingual
label, or using one roll of bilingual labels out of say 10, they are
depackaging and repackaging.  This is silly.  I presume they are
actually not doing repackaging and you use this example because it
fits you mind.  But, what about milk?  Are they pouring the milk from an
English pack to a bilingual one?  The price of milk is about 35% higher
nonetheless.

>to Canada the sheets are removed from their packages, the old labels
>taken off the sheets, new labels put on and repackaged. The difference
>in cost between sheets in Canada and the US is due almost entirely to
>this repackaging cost and of course the inefficient formerly heavily
                ^^^^^^ please give us a reference or use the smileys...

>tariff protected textile industry of eastern Canada which couldn't
>lower their prices if their lives depended upon it. Except for my
>comment on the textile, industry all the other stuff is from a news
>documentary done sometime last spring when the Spicer commission was
>touring Canada. The topic of the documentary was the high cost of
>bilingualism.
>
>
>Donald Acton

Maybe you read about the Japanese industry.  If you are selling chocolate
bars to Japan, you must send them in the regular package and repackage
them in Japan.  

The documentary was then probably misleading and racist.  The only example
you gave are your invention,  

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   The Time Traveler...  I get your news with a 7-day delay.
J   __>  Expect 7 days for feedback.  Operating 7 days-light from Earth.
\_.-===  Ope'rateur de "Racines du Que'bec" (514) 922-9636 BBS/Genealogie
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:8440 can.politics:9549
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:15:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Nov5.151536.8645
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: The Bates Motel

In article <schuck.720947869@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>
>As I said, 'products to Japan and Japanese tourists within BC'.
>
>BC is a major tourism spot for Japanese tourists , and there are many
>shops in Vancouver dedicated to such tourists. Products geared towards
>those tourist don't really need french in addition to japanese and
>english on the labels, but english is necessary for US tourists and
>British Columbians. 

Two things ...

1. Outside of specialty ethnic shops, it's hard to know whether your
buyer will be Japanese, Swiss, etc.  Japanese tourists are shoppers
and they will go for high ticket items that everyone else with a lot
of disposable vacation money will go for ... the presence of Japanese
signs on Fifth Avenue are quite limited, I assure you.

2. You already have the English.  So what if there's French as well?

>Another language issue that annoys me is the signs in Airports and
>federal government offices. They are all bilingual, french and
>english.  On this issue I'm not saying eliminate french, I'm saying
>add Japanese and Chinese. Multilanguage signs are common in Europe 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>-- we don't have to limit ourselves to two in places like BC.

1. Why add Japanese to *Canadian federal government* offices?  The
immigration from Japan had pretty well stopped in the 1920's; almost
all British Columbians of Japanese-descent (whose families were not
forcefully repatriated to other parts of Canada after they were
released from the camps) are native English speakers born and bred
in Canada.  It would even be stretching to say that their parents
might even speak, let alone read, Japanese.

2. Same for British Columbians of Chinese-descent, despited the high
proportion of immigrants (the balance is tipped the other way in the
eastern parts of this continent), particularly from Hong Kong whose
presence is counted more in dollars than in head count.

3. An international transit and business hub like NYC has only seen
airport signs in anything other than English appear in the last few
years ... we're talking the last three, maybe four at JFK and LGA.
I'd expect more inertia in Vancouver ...

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare				Jesus Saves!
> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU 		Gretzky gets the rebound -
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			he shoots, he scores!
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:8469 can.politics:9589
From: mousseau@paun01.pa.msu.edu (Normand Mousseau)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:15:24 GMT
Reply-To: mousseau@paun01.pa.msu.edu (Normand Mousseau)
Organization: Michigan State University


In article <1992Nov9.175935.17729@julian.uwo.ca>, wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne Smith) writes:

|> It is a social engineering policy adopted by the gov't.  Canadians should
|> not accept it "by default".  The gov't should mind it's own business.

	Non.  Si on elit un gouvernement, c'est pour qu'il fasse quelque chose.
Dans notre societe, un des buts des gouvernements est de proteger le droit commun contre le pouvoir de certains individus ou de certaines classes. Donc,
quand le gouvernement legifere sur le sujet, il 'minds its own business' ! 

|> 
|> If the (Ont) gov't mandates private sector goods be bilingulally labelled,
|> then shouldn't it also label every traffic sign in the province?  What's
|> the difference between the two?  The difference is that the cost of the
|> second comes out of the gov't pockets.  They are being hipocritical, as
|> usual...
|> 
	  Qu'est-ce que les poches du gouvernement ? L'argent 
vient des payeurs de taxes, c'est a dire, nous !  Et si on ne met pas les
panneaux de signalisation bilingues, c'est surtout parce que maintenant on
utilise des symboles internationaux.  Et je ne vois pas l'hypocrisie
puisque de toutes facons, c'est toujours le consommateur/payeur de taxes
qui paie la note !

	Il me semble percevoir une certaine acrimonie vis-a-vis du gouver-
nement. Sans etre toujours d'accord avec ses decisions, je supporte 
pleinement une certaine intervention gouvernementale dans les echanges
commerciaux (et aussi dans l'education, les telecommunications, l'assurance-
maladie, etc.)

	Normand Mousseau
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: REMEMBRANCE DAY - B.Adams (Was - Re: !*! In Flanders Fields ... !*!)
From: deyoung@acs.harding.edu (Joel M. DeYoung)
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:02:36 -0500
Reply-To: deyoung@acs.harding.edu
Distribution: world
Organization: Harding University

In article <1dc0uoINN9qt@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca>, hlee@unixg.ubc.ca (Henry Lee) writes:
>All follow-ups to soc.culture.canada
>
>My original posting of "In Flanders Fields" was met with corrections;
>to those who posted/replied, my thanks.
>

[Bryan Adams song deleted]

>* April 1917 - Vimy Ridge : " ... lest we forget ..."
>* Sgt. Michael Ralph : first Canadian killed during current
>			UN Bosnia peacekeeping mission
>Henry Lee   <hlee@unixg.ubc.ca> // <lee@physics.ubc.ca>

What were the corrections?  Can you please re-post the corrected version?
Thanks.

Joel
<deyoung@harding.edu>
===========================================================                
| Joel M. DeYoung  8-)     |   Mail: Box 686 Searcy, AR   |                  
| DEYOUNG@ACS.HARDING.EDU  |         72149-0001 USA       |                   
|                          |  Voice: 501-279-4562         |                 
| Harding University       |    Fax: 501-279-4505         |               
===========================================================                
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:8356 can.politics:9426
From: mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Newsgroups: socs.misc,alt.canada,soc.canada,alt.politics.canada,mcgill.general,soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Canada and Quebec (was: REFERENDUM '92)
Date: 7 Nov 92 08:44:03 GMT
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines

In article <1992Nov6.161403.8253@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, peta@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (Peter Whaite) writes:
[stuff about democracy in ancient Greece]
> Really means the rule of the "demos", or the citizen body.

True, franchise was much more restricted.  Someone else said a
population of 100K, with 3K voting.  That's rather low by modern
standards...anyone happen to know how the typical voter turnout
compares to the population?  (Note I said population, not enfranchised
portion of the population.  The fraction of those able to vote who
actually do may be another interesting number....)

> [I]t may be that the development of communication technolgy is going
> to make "direct democracy" viable again.  [...]  However its going to
> be interesting, in particular, how can one guarantee the integrity of
> an electronic vote collecting/counting system that is continental in
> extent?

How can one guarantee the integrity of a non-electronic vote
collecting/counting system that is continental in extent?

					der Mouse

			    mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: 002564r@ace.acadiau.ca (RICARDO FLAVIO ROMAN-CARBAJAL)
Subject: colmbian in canada
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:45:58 GMT

Itzel McClaren is looking Walter Torres if some body Know him please get in 
contact with him

      imcclar@huracan.cr

                  Thank you  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne Smith)
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Organization: University of Western Ontario
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:21:43 GMT

In article <WARKENT.92Nov10103106@ltisun14.epfl.ch> warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne) writes:
>In article <1992Nov9.175935.17729@julian.uwo.ca> wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne Smith) wrote:
>> [Bilingual labelling]
>> is a social engineering policy adopted by the gov't.
>
>This is rich, especially coming from the person who complained about
>French articles in these newsgroups.

Look.  It started because I read some posting, which began with 1 or 2 pages
of quoted english text.  It looked interesting, so I read it, then I got a
little miffed that I ended up wasting a few minutes just to get come to some
french text.

It doesn't bother me how many french postings are done here.  It just makes
sense that you reply to a posting in the same language.  Would you come up
to a group of people having a conversation and then enter into the
conversation in a different language?

>So spell out the details Wayne.  Is the government is engaged in a secret
>campaign to turn all Canadians into francophones?  Is it a plot to condition
>English Canadians to orient cans and boxes such that the French part is
>hidden, thus ensuring that we re-elect the Conservatives?  Is it
>psychological warfare to discourage and destabilise those who cannot
>bear to have to deal with a language they do not understand?

Hey, I think a lot of people here would agree that our gov't has it's share
of hidden agenda's.  It's no plot.  It's a combination of hidden agenda's,
combined with the govt's irresistable urge to expand it's social services
(or social meddling) at the cost of reducing physical-infrastructure
services (roads, healthcare, VIA rail, etc...).  Our gov't should give
us the services we want (what ever happened to universal day care?), not
the service they think we should have.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: pmangiafico@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: !*! In Flanders Fields ... !*!
Date: 6 Nov 92 09:03:12 -0500
Followup-To: soc.culture.canada
Distribution: world
Organization: Georgetown University

In article <1d41efINNnv2@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca>, hlee@unixg.ubc.ca (Henry Lee) writes:
> 
> 			"In Flanders Fields"
> 
> 		In Flanders fields the poppies blow
> 		Between the crosses, row on row,
> 		That mark our place; and in the sky
> 		The larks, still bravely singing, fly
> 		Scarce heard amid the guns below.
> 		We are the dead.  Short days ago
> 		We lived, saw dawn, felt sunset glow,
> 		Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
> 			In Flanders fields.
> 
> 		Take up your quarrel with the foe:
> 		To you from failing heads we throw
> 		The torch; be yours to hold it high.
> 		If ye break faith with us to die
> 		We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
> 			In Flanders fields.
> 				
> 				Written May 3, 1915 after battle(s) at Ypres,
> 				by Maj. (Dr.) John McCrae of the 
> 				1st Field Artillery Brigade
> 				Published in "Punch", Dec 8, 1915
> 
> 			November 11 ... LEST WE FORGET


I had not read this poem in a long long time, and I'm glad you posted 
it. It brings back memories to me of my grade-school days in Calgary, 
when every year around this time all the students would make paper 
poppies and post them on the walls, and the teachers would read this 
poem to us in solemn voices. Somehow these words convey not only ideas 
but sights, sounds, and emotions too. Lest we forget, indeed. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: MD04MXS@MUSIC.TCS.TULANE.EDU (MD04MXS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: RE: A French primer for Wayne (was: Labelling)
Date: 13 Nov 92 03:12:50 GMT
Organization: Your MUSIC System
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-28544]: music.tcs.tulane.edu

In article <BxJKzy.594.1@cs.cmu.edu> clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.043204.18597@julian.uwo.ca> wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne Smith) writes:
>
>   Do you do this just to bug me?  If I wanted a french conversation, I would
>   have posted in french.
>
>Wayne, where did you grow up?  I'm surprised that you have had so
>little exposure to French.  You'd think that thousands of mornings
>alone with your cereal box and milk carton would have taught you
>something!  :-)
>
>I'm going to do a poor translation (word-for-word literal) of Normand's
>post here...
>
>The only hard word there was the subjunctive of "faire" (make/do), but
>it can be derived from context.
>
>The only words that did not have obvious English analogues were
>"pleinement", "note", "toujours", "dans", "aussi", and "maintenant".
>
Stewart makes a very good point here. Language has quite a bit of
similarity that enables us to figure out the gist of the message
even if we are not fluent. My French is dismal, but I can generally
get the basic meaning of a written passage using my knowledge of
English and Spanish. Writing intelligibly in French is another matter
entirely.

In the interest of civility, however, perhaps those who post in
English should attempt to convey some of their thoughts in
French, while those who post in French could do likewise in
English. At least that way, we are meeting each other half-way.

A little bit of compromise on the language issue wouldn't hurt this
news group one bit (and it wouldn't exactly be a bad thing for
Canada as a nation to try, either).

Just a thought.
>.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth Milstead              Internet: md04mxs@music.tcs.tulane.edu
Tulane University             Prodigy: bkfs62a
New Orleans, Louisiana        Snail Mail: Who still uses it???
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:8501 can.politics:9663
From: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Date: 13 Nov 92 03:07:12 GMT
	<schuck.721093145@sfu.ca> <1992Nov7.182702.27573@news.columbia.edu>
Reply-To: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
Organization: Nagoya Institute of Technology, Nagoya ,Japan.


In article <1992Nov7.182702.27573@news.columbia.edu> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:

>Well, the newcomers will have to adapt like the oldcomers before them
>and in tune with the rest of society around them ... how often have you
>seen a pub rock band with an asian face at an instrument?

Every week?

>In fact, I feel less of a freak in Vancouver or in the Bay Area 'cos
>there are lots of people with Asian looks who speak "normal" english
>and if you are one of them, people don't look at you funny like here
>out east ...

Try having an Asian name without the Asian face!

In my high school calculus class in Calgary, there were about 20-25 
students.  I was the only non-Asian in the class (after my non-Asian
friend dropped it).  I remember that they would speak Cantonese
among themselves, and either couldn't or wouldn't speak to me, so
it left me with nothing to do but study.  I guess they had either
studied the subject in HongKong, or just read the equations in the
text book, since they seemed to do pretty well.


Todd Law
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nagoya Institute of Technology,
Itoh Laboratory,			"Be excellent to each other."
todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Subject: Re: Americans on English schools in Quebec (Was: Quebec)
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:33:55 GMT

In article <31OCT92.19235315.0022@MUSIC.TCS.TULANE.EDU> MD04MXS <MD04MXS@MUSIC.TCS.TULANE.EDU> writes:
>if I lived in Quebec, but that would be a decision made by ME--not
>by the province. It is one thing for the parents of a child to decide
>that their children should receive the bulk of their education in
>a language other than their native English. It is another matter
>ENTIRELY for the province to unilaterally decide that children will
>be educated in a language different from that spoken by the parents.
>Whatever happened to parental participation in the educational
>process? It seems impossible if the parents can't comprehend what the
>kids are doing in school.
>

You forget one important point : immigrants choose to move to Quebec.
If they don't want education in French, they are free to select any
other 9 provinces and 49 states on that continent for English,
plus other in Antillas, Belize, Oceania, Africa, etc., plus a lot
of other langugaes elsewhere.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   The Time Traveler...  I get your news with 10 days delay.
J   __>  Expect 10 days for feedback.  Operating 10 days-light from Earth.
\_.-===  Ope'rateur de "Racines du Que'bec" (514) 922-9636 BBS/Genealogie
From: grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:02:44 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <WARKENT.92Nov11101413@ltisun14.epfl.ch> warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne) writes:
>If requiring bilingual labels is social engineering, then so are laws
>that impose fines for littering.

How so?

Littering is of local concern. The issue of bilingual lablelling
is of national concern. Now what purpose is served to have national
requirements for bilingual lablelling? I would suppose it would be for
the laudbable purpose of providing a ntional presence for both cultures.
This is a piece of social engineering { I agree with the law's intent
by the way}.









-- 
i.sinature
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics