From: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Catullus & Passer
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Stanford University Academic Information Resources
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 21:40:36 GMT

Well, I tried to take this to private e-mail...  --rma

Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 09:45:55 -0800
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Message-Id: <9212301745.AA23629@last-call.cisco.com>

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>>> RCPT To:<STrzaskoma@ux3.cso.uiuc.edu>
<<< 550 <STrzaskoma@ux3.cso.uiuc.edu>... User unknown
550 STrzaskoma@news.cso.uiuc.edu (Stephen Trzaskoma)... User unknown

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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 09:45:55 -0800
From: Rich Alderson <alderson>
Message-Id: <9212301745.AA23627@last-call.cisco.com>
To: STrzaskoma@news.cso.uiuc.edu (Stephen Trzaskoma)
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com
Subject: Re: Catullus & his sparrow
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Cc: 

In article <Bzo7Fp.LFH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> you write:
>In article <1992Dec18.190749.19413@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:
>>In article <BzF92w.DqA@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, Stephen Trzaskoma writes:
>>>But to deny that the word passer has an erotic
>>>context is Victorian prudery.
>>
>>And not simply Victorian. 
>Agreed!
>
>>Ahh.  But Catullus ran with a fast crowd, not unlike the late Victorian
>>aesthetes (Beardsley, Wilde, usw.) who used language amongst themselves that
>>was *intentionally* shocking to the upright, prudish Republican mores by
>>which they were surrounded.
>
>>It is thus possible to maintain both our statements, that Catullus and his
>>friends used this language freely, and that the terms were obscene, shocking,
>>and not in *free* use among the general populace.
>
>While I do not have any sort of violent reaction to the above, the references
>in Catullus indicate that he didn't run with a bunch of proto-bohemians, but
>rather moved among the best circles in Rome (including Caesar who was his
>father's friend). His references to Mamurra as Mentula ("Prick") caused Caesar
>acute embarrassment but didn't shock him.  After all, the story goes, having
>apologized for hurting Caesar's reputation by attacking Mamurra, Caesar
>invited Catullus to stay that very night for dinner.  As for *free* use, the
>small hints of colloquial Latin that we do have indicate that half of
>Catullus' brilliance lies in his incorporation of that kind of speech into his
>very polished poetry.  Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo would have made perfect
>sense to the general populace.  They would have been impressed even more by
>the fine meter; they also would probably have laughed when they realized that
>Catullus had taken what was essentially a moribund metaphor (like our own f*ck
>you) and given it back its literal sense.  All in all, I simply cannot agree.

First, you have to understand that the aesthetes were not "proto-bohemians" but
the scions of "respectable society" (whatever that may be at any given time :).
They were welcomed into drawing rooms precisely because their behaviour was on
the edge of scandal, and a hostess who could boast of having survived such a
visit had a great deal of cachet for the remainder of the Season.

Caesar is a bad example of someone who might be shocked by rude language.  He
was known in his own time for his ribald humour, especially when addressing his
troops in preparation for battle.  His complaint was indeed the *political*
damage done by the Mentula poems.

And again, just because someone knows a word does not mean that it is not a
shock to hear it in plain use.  I remember all too well when simply using an
obscenity in a public place could result in arrest and fines or even jail time,
even less than twenty years ago.

>(p.S. how are things at Stanford Classics (are you in the dept?)?  I did my
>undergrad work there....)

I'm a guest on the Stanford systems, allowed an account because I was the
systems programmer and systems manager for LOTS/AIR from 1984 to 1991.  I know
Prof. Devine slightly, since I'm interested in the Greek accent; and I know a
few people who were in the department at one time or another (Terry Bartlett,
Matt Rohler, Patricia Albarran).

Rich Alderson   You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary
                of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo-
                logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they
                know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning
                as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or
                what not.
                                                --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@cisco.com                                _The Notion Club Papers_

-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_