HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: All of you guidelines thumpers (was Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 21:48:00 GMT

JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
> Such a "loophole" in my opinion is no different than suspending
>the Guidelines just to accomodate any one particular group (regardless
>how altruistic or worthy that group may be); we are about to set a
>terrible precedent. The result of what is about to take place can
>already be seen in a post (be it serious or in jest) by Iain McCord
>regarding another proposed group:

As I understand the guidelines...they are GUIDELINES not commandments
written in stone. The nature of these groups are such that splitting
the vote for them is illogical and counter-productive. 

> Obviously the Net does not know the meaning of EQUALITY and FAIRNESS.

It doesn't. Next question.

> Either we apply the Guidelines equally to every group, or we just simply
>dispose of the Guidelines right now, once and for all and never mention
>them again for any reason whatsoever. And live with the madness and chaos
>that may come afterwards (as if we didn't have enough of that already).

How about we come to a sane middle ground and suspend them for this
one time?

> By the way, how do I feel about the four proposed groups ? I feel that
>they all deserve to pass, but as four separate votes with no special
>provisions attached to them. If done according to the guidelines
>I'll vote YES for all of them, but if the guidelines are suspended
>or twisted I intend to vote NO on all four.

Ok, you asked for it. We'll do it this way:

I'll run four separate votes. If it comes to pass that ANY of these
groups pass and ANY OTHER of these groups doesn't then I PERSONALLY 
will withdraw all software support and other support for the moderated 
groups. Further, I will not support these groups at my news site, and 
I will recommend the same. Finally, articles coming in for those groups
will be dropped on the floor.

Now that's a loophole that you have no say so in. Do you see the attitude
that you are giving me in your statements? Isn't this productive?

My INTENT is to create either four groups or no groups. I don't care
how it is done...if you are willing to work with me then maybe together
we can find a workable solution. If you exist just to oppose me, then
please oppose me as much as you can. 


-- 
Xref: sparky news.groups:9861 news.admin:3499
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<#yljjll@lynx.unm.edu> <1992Apr6.180323.8225@wdl.loral.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 20:12:29 GMT

 David> == David C Blume <dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com> 

 David> Please understand.  I *do* understand your argument.  I *like*
 David> hierarchies.  I agree with the trumpet example.  It just happens
 David> to be inappropriate.  It is my *honest* (and as objective as I
 David> can get) opinion that the couplets of [rec.arts.comics and
 David> rec.arts.manga], or [rec.arts.comics.us and
 David> rec.arts.comics.manga] are the appropriate names.

So push for rec.arts.comics => rec.arts.comics.misc.  It'll probably
happen sooner or later anyway.

*All* comics and comic-like media (strips, etc) should be in one
hierarchy: rec.arts.comics.*.

The fact that the root group is "rec.arts.comics" rather than
"rec.arts.comics.misc" is a historical accident that can be easily
corrected.

Don't let this force us into an ugly future hierarchy just because it's
not r.a.c.misc yet...
--
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org> |    ECONOMIC OBSERVATIONS DEPARTMENT
System Manager & Postmaster     |  "There's always something going out of
Electronic Frontier Foundation  |      business in Central Square."
+1 617 864 0665  NIC: [CKD1]    |   -Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita@eff.org>
From: mckinzie@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Mark McKinzie)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.music.compose
Date: 16 Apr 92 04:42:37 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin Dept. of Mathematics

news@informix.com (Usenet News) writes:

>In article <shl7cINNvv@news.UU.NET> josh@tekelec.com (Josh Barinstein) writes:
>> 
>>      There are assorted newsgroups in existence for the discussion of dif-
>> ferent styles of music; however, these discussions are strictly from a
>> listener's perspective.  There is also rec.music.makers which discusses the
>> process by which a musician produces the audible end product.  However,
>> there is no group that addresses the creative process that is so important
>> to the art of music-making.  This group would serve to fill that gap.

   .makers is the *perfect* place for the creators of music to post.
   Any "gap" is not one of heirarchy, but rather one of usage.  You wish
   you saw more articles about the process of songwritting on the net?
   Well, write some!!! The newsgroup r.m.makers is ready and willing
   to propagate them throughout the world to other people with similar
   interests.

>I would find this very interesting, and it would reduce the time I spend  
>reading "for sale" and "xyz synth HELP!!!!" notices. Howz about it?

  As would liberal use of the "=" and "K" keys . . . .


-- 
Mark McKinzie          | Listen, if they're going to buy lunch boxes,
mckinzie@math.wisc.edu | they might as well buy David Cassidy lunch boxes.
UW Dept. of Mathematics|
Madison, WI 53706      |            -David Cassidy-
From: ebm@corvair.almaden.ibm.com (Eli Messinger)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.music.enya
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:41:02 GMT
Organization: The Jay Maynard Institute

Jay Maynard...

> In particular, the Erlandites would have folks believe that a 100-message/day
> rec.music.misc is not too much to wade through. Obviously, folks disagree with
> that. This proposal is yet another sign that rec.music.misc is breaking up,
> whether the Erlandites like it or not.

...Hello, my name is Jay Mayn-skrrrrch Hello, my name is Jay Man-skrrrch Hello,
my name is Jay Mayn-skrrrrch Hello, my name is Jay Man-skrrrch Hello, my name
is Jay Mayn-skrrrrch Hello, my name is Jay Man-skrrrch Hello, my name is Jay
Mayn-skrrrrch Hello, my name is Jay Man-skrrrch Hello, my name is Jay Mayn-
skrrrrch Hello, my name is Jay Man-skrrrch...

Jay, if your going to insist on continuing to read news by telneting to the
NNTP port and pawing through the articles one at a time, well *sure* 100
messages a day is going to overwhelm you -- especially across that 1200 BPS
line you use, right?
--
	      "Phish is good."  --James Treworgy, March 18, 1992
       CSNET: ebm@almaden.ibm.com / UUNET: ...!uunet!almaden.ibm.com!ebm
Date: 12 Apr 92 03:47:04 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: creation of eunet.aviation
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

ikluft@uts.amdahl.com (Ian Kluft) writes:
 >Agreed.  I had no idea people were doing this to Lars-Henrik and others of our
 >European net.friends.  What's been described here is very poor netiquette.

The situation as described is quite common, really, though not always
this extreme.  I wouldn't expect one netiquette posting on this
problem to make a difference, any more than any other netiqutte
posting does.

I also doubt this will change until a sensibly organised usa.*
hierarchy comes together.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: bn510@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Matthew L. High)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Straw poll, take 3:  r.a.manga or r.a.comics.manga?
Date: 10 Apr 92 00:27:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr10.002711.28904
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


This is the third and final call for responses.
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS ADDRESS!!!
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS ADDRESS!!!
SEND ALL EMAIL TO:  mhigh@vm1.tucc.trinity.edu
------------------------
You know, there's an easy way to figure where to place the proposed
 r.*.manga group...hold a straw poll!  Rules are simple:  send a
 message to mhigh@vm1.tucc.trinity.edu stating either:
 
I support rec.arts.manga
 
   - or -
 
I support rec.arts.comics.manga
 
Voting begins now, and ends April 12th, noon, CDT.  78 responses have
 been received already, all of which have been individually acknowledged.
 There will also be a mass ack on the 12th.  This message is being posted,
 to alt.manga, rec.arts.anime, news.groups, and rec.arts.comics.
 
Longtime alt.manga reader...
_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-
Aleph Null, net.spy!   |  Internet:  mhigh@vm1.tucc.trinity.edu
 aka Matthew High      |  Freenet:  bn510     GEnie:  M.HIGH
30 days to go, eek!    |  FurNet:  NUL_2 BBS 1:387/256  (512) 615-6852
 (512) 737-4890        |  Help!  I've coded and I can't debug!
------"Can I get you anything doctor?"----------------------------------------
      "Yes.  I'd like a cup of hot fat and the head of Alfredo Garcia."
             - Fletch
From: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: comp.security.misc ??
Date: 6 Apr 92 11:18:57 GMT
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, DC

There was a flurry of discussion about creating an unmoderated
newsgroup comp.security.misc a little bit back and I thought there
was a RFD on it as well.  In the meantime I've gotten distracted
and am now confused what the status of that proposal was.

If no CFV has gone out, I'd be willing in principle to post one and
count votes.  Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet this morning...

Any way, would someone more clue'd in please drop me an email note
on where things stand ?

Thanks,

Ran
atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil
Organization: The Leader Desslok School of Diplomacy
Date: Wednesday, 15 Apr 1992 02:40:22 EDT
From: Norman St. John Polevaulter <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: r.a.manga vs r.a.c.manga - A Plea for Sanity

Well, this debate has gotten HIGHLY acrimonious. I'd just like to ask
all the participants one thing:

If your side loses, and the CFV goes ahead with the other name -- PLEASE,
PLEASE don't vote against it just because of the name.

It is about as proven as these things can be that rec.arts.{comics.}manga
will get plenty of traffic -- alt.manga is humming along fine even with
its limited distribution. This CFV will get a much-requested newsgroup out
to many more people who might want to read it. That's what netnews is
for, after all. The specific name is ultimately immaterial.

I mean, I prefer rec.arts.manga myself, analogous with rec.arts.anime.
It's short and snappy and emphasizes the unique features of manga.
However, if "my side" loses and the chosen name is rec.arts.comics.manga --
I will be the first to vote in favor. I won't even grumble or complain
(well, maybe a TINY bit, but it won't change my vote.) I hope you can
all say the same. The group is infinitely more important than its label.

[Your blood pressure just went up.]       Mark Sachs IS: mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu
 DISCLAIMER: Penn State cares about my money, not my opinions.
  "All my father wanted to do was make a toaster you could really set the
    darkness on -- and you perverted his work into those horrible machines!"
From: Timothy.Allen@dartmouth.edu (Timothy Allen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:18:35 GMT
 <1992Apr14.025218.5041@nuscc.nus.sg>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

I support the call for an image processing newsgroup, one with a
separate identity from comp.graphics.  There are a lot of people
outside of the computer graphics arena who do image processing: remote
sensors, geologists, meteorologists, astronomers, medical people,
biologists, etc....  I'm one of these scientists (a geologist). 

Something along the lines of sci.imaging would be nice, but I think
something in the comp.* hierarchy might be more appropriate and would
still reach the larger audience.  Some have proposed comp.dsp.image;
where-ever the group ends up, it should definitely have the word
"image" in its name.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim Allen                                       
tim.allen@dartmouth.edu
Earth Science Department
Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:53:36 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <1992Apr9.135312.11300@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU writes:
>In <1992Apr3.211858.9113@PDX.MENTORG.COM> donw@mentorg.com (Don Wakefield) writes:
>
>>>then the group should be names rec.arts.comics.manga. 
>
>>Certainly this is the argument one usually hears when a newsgroup is
>>proposed which has some general connection to an already existing
>>group.  I feel that manga are sufficiently different in their range of
>>topics, packaging format, and cultural referents that a separate
>>rec.arts subhierarchy is not too silly.
>
>If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck.

Let me tell you about the ugly duckling... :)  (just kidding!)

>
>Lets look at the proposed charter for rec.arts.manga.
>
> >       Discussion of Japanese comics (a.k.a. manga), and comics with
> >        strong manga influences.
>
> > This newsgroup will provide a forum for fan discussions
> > related to Japanese comics (known as "Manga" in Japanese) as well as
> > any comics strongly influenced by Japanese comics (such as comics in
>
>In this small excerpt the word "comic" appears no less than 5 times.
>If it looks like a comic, and gets called a comic, and gets sold as a
>comic. It is a comic.

If the writers knew what kind of commotion it would have caused, they
probably would have used "sequential art" instead.  For me, this discussion
is the first time I've heard of that phrase.

Anyway, if it looks like a manga, and gets called a manga, and gets sold as
a manga:  it's a manga.

(sound funny?)
(just trying to shine a different light on it)



--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA ( Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 15:36:43 GMT

In article <PJMEF07@taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
> In article <1992Apr16.140729.9145@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
> >Who are Henry, Ken and Dennis ?
> 
> Henry Spencer, Ken Thompson, and Dennis Ritchie. The authors of (respectively)
> C News (with Geoff), UNIX, and C.
> 

Oh my AT&T counter parts !!!

> >Don't you think a proposer of the group which exists should have some
> >criterion to evaluate whether a revote should be conducted ?
> 
> It's never been needed before. 

Could there be a first time ? Isn't there a first time for anything ?

> 
> >Why is it so unreasonable to require a 2/3 majority for such a case, where
> >the group is functioning quite reasonably ?
> 
> Because it was, apparently, created in violation of the guidelines. At
> least that's what several people whose opinions I respect are claiming,
> and I have no reason to doubt them. 

If that is the situation then won't the straw poll reflect such opinion ?

> >Think about it, we are talking about possible removal of such a group.
> >The group may or may not pass again. 
> 
> Them's the breaks. I've had groups fail, too. It's not a big deal. Maybe
> you can wait until the usa or us hierarchy gets under weigh. Maybe even
> help create it...
> 

Now that is a thoughtful answer ...

> >My proof of integrity is that I am conducting the straw poll to determine
> >whether enough people feel the allegations are serious enough to
> >warrant a revote.
> 
> I'm sorry, this just doesn't follow. "Your Honor, as proof of the defendent's
> integrity he held his own jury hearings".

Well I have been open to somebody else conducting such a straw poll. 

I did ask Jose Martinez publicly and David Lawrence privately to do just 
that atleast once.  They didn't seem to be very interested in doing it.

So by default, I have to conduct it myself. I didn't like it but I felt
I had no other choice.

Would you be willing to do such a straw poll for me ? Perhaps it
is already too late and the poll is already going on.

> S (+1 713 568 1032 Trailblazer)24 20 S 12 T (Peter da Silva)24 45 S showpage

Alok


Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.mud.{tiny,diku,announce}
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 00:10:09 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.181229.15796@uunet.uu.net> rsnyder@fergie.dnet.ge.com (Bob Snyder) writes:

>rec.games.mud.lp already exists, and rec.games.mud will stay on as a
>place to discuss concerns that are not directly related to any
>individual gaming system.

This has already been discussed, I believe, but could rec.games.mud be
renamed to rec.games.mud.misc, simply to make its purpose clearer?
What are the main objections to that?

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:07:02 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School

In <axolotl.702613835@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:

>The subject of the debate is why rec.arts.comics.manga is inappropriate.

>One of the reasons why it's inappropriate is because the name very
>clearly implies that "manga goes under comics", which is very clearly
>wrong, as far as the people who will be using the newsgroup are concerned.

Wrong, try again.

Creating rec.arts.comics.magna implies that it is a TYPE of comic. Since
the proposed charter that was posted to news.groups (but not to
rec.arts.comics, bad move guys) describes manga as a type of comic book I
don't understand the problem.

Putting something in a hierarchy does not place it 'under' anything, get
real. It implies that it is a major type of whatever is under discussion
and it has the readership to rate its own discussion space.

ie: (to quote an already posted example)
rec.honda is a dumb idea. rec.autos.honda makes sense. Does this say that
Honda's are inferior to all other cars? No, it says that enough people
want to discuss hondas and they want a place to do it apart from
rec.autos.

Get a grip and stop assuming that a practical suggestion is an insult to
your ego.

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU  -  Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business
	Contributing Dartmouth Alumnus
	"The only 9 you've ever seen was in arithmetic."
		-3rd Bass
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:08:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.y0rjagd
Organization: Living in a satellite fantasy, waiting for the night to end.

axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:

> We have a situation where the traffic is finding itself everywhere
> except rec.arts.comics, and a loud minority is still insisting that it
> be shoehorned into rec.arts.comics.  Beats me. 

This is an out-and-out lie.  Not ONE SINGLE PERSON has tried to tell you
to simply move your discussion to rec.arts.comics -- in fact, the one
thing we're all in agreement on is that a mainstream newsgroup for manga
is a pretty good idea.  Nobody is impressed by your dexterity in defeating
a nonexistant argument.

> We've arrived at rec.arts.manga after a lot of informed discussion. 

If nobody bothered to mention the fact that a new newsgroup about comics
belongs in the existing comics hierarchy, I don't think you can argue that
your discussion was particularly well-informed.  There are reasons why
discussions are supposed to take place in news.groups, and reminding
people about problems like this is one of them.

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)

"Sailboats of ice on desert sand"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: soc.personals.ads.{male,female}.{seeking-male,seeking-female}
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 22:25:35 GMT

test@peregrine.Sun.COM (Carole Parker) writes:
>I like the divisions, but the point has been raised that homophobic
>people might eliminate the male.seeking-male and female.seeking-female. I
>don't know if you can make them an all or nothing situation. Either take
>all four newsgroups or none of them.

I am going to take a tack that has been recommended to me by several
people now (even David "newgroup.god" Lawrence) which will fail the
entire proposal as a whole if but one group does not pass. I will mention
that voting for one and against another group makes no sense, but 
since people are so damned sensitive about the Guidelines <hallelujah
chorus goes here> I will allow the multiple votes. 

How's that for a loophole? 

-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov           ames!elroy!dxh

Community (n.) - 1. Irrationals unified by hope of the impossible.
From: tkim@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Tonghyun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:36:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1992Apr16.150250.29081@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
>    I realize that. But just because a group has a name with broad
>connotations, it doesn't mean that discussion within that group, defined
>in the charter, has to take on the broadest possible definition. take a
>look at rec.arts.books as an example. The majority of the discussion in
>that group is fiction, but the definition of a book is broad beyond
>belief. 

That's true. But books newsgroup is not located under fiction
hierachy.

I might haven't even jumped into this debate if I hadn't seen so
many people insisting rec.arts.comics.manga based on the WRONG fact
that manga is a subset of comic.

>
>    How could I read your follow up before it was posted. When this
>article got to my site, I read it and replyed. I just now finished
>reading your next article, which was a followup to a followup of this
>article that I am replying to. (everybody follow that line of logic ;-)
>

Sorry about that. I expected my posting to reach your site at least
within a day.
 

Tonghyun "Vajra" Kim
tkim@sdcc3.ucsd.edu
From: tonyd@ssc60.sbwk.nj.us (Tony DeBari)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  comp.bbs.misc
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 01:30:07 EDT
Organization: Lost In Space

gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Life...) writes:

> Request For Discussion (RFD): comp.bbs.misc
>
> Status: unmoderated
>
> This is an official Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a
> Usenet newsgroup to take the role currently held by alt.bbs.

Well done, Greg.

Speaking as one of the proponents of the current comp.bbs.waffle RFD/CFV,
let me put to rest any notion that we don't want to "share a hierarchy"
by voicing my support for comp.bbs.misc.

> Currently there is a proposal to move alt.bbs.waffle to comp.bbs.waffle.
> It is a seperate proposal from this one, but the course of that vote may
> affect this proposal.  If the group fails, I'd be willing to amend the
> charter to allow for discussion of BBS software that runs on different
> platforms, thus allowing comp.bbs.waffle discussion.

One small suggestion...

If comp.bbs.waffle fails, c.b.misc would then become a misc group without
a surrounding hierarchy.  I therefore suggest that if comp.bbs.waffle
fails, the proposed comp.bbs.misc should instead be called comp.bbs.  If
at some future time one or more subgroups are formed, comp.bbs could be
renamed comp.bbs.misc at that time.

--
Tony DeBari          INET: tonyd@ssc60.sbwk.nj.us     CI$: 73117,452
                     UUCP: ...!uunet!ssc60!tonyd      *P*: GHRW14B

"First things first ... but not necessarily in that order" - The Doctor