From: rlosee@unlinfo.unl.edu (Robert Losee)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Support for Boy Scouts
Date: 29 Jul 92 19:22:03 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln

In <1992Jul27.213049.26997@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>I am not suggesting that the BSA be legally compelled to
>not discriminate.  And I agree that diversity is a good
>thing.  We're talking about whether it's better for the
>BSA to be an open organization or a religious organization.

>My view is that either is OK as long as it's unambiguous.
>I would have no problem if the BSA were *more* discriminatory,
>so it was obvious to all that this was, for example,
>the "Catholic Boy Scouts" or the "Baptist Boy Scouts".
>Neither funding agencies nor the community at large would
>have any illusions about such organizations' having open
>membership.  I wouldn't expect to insist that my children,
>who are Jewish, should be allowed to join such groups.

I have a problem with such a limited approach, probably because of my
own experience.  I first encountered "jewishness" in our scout pack
and later troop, as some members were Jewish, even though the unit
was associated with my Lutheran church.  They and their parents were
very valued members of the unit.  And it was in looking at the
different religious awards in the handbook that I became aware of and
began to wonder about the meaning of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and
the Missouri Synod Lutheran church (amoung others).  That later lead
me to investigate and come to a great appreiciation of many other
faiths.

I want to be in an organization, and have my sons in an organization,
that believes in a God because I want my sons to experience these
other faiths respectfully.  My experience is that organizations and
governments that also include atheists end up not discussing or
including religion at all.  In short the scouts offers the belief in 
God but all faiths are respected attitude I want.  Does any other 
organization do this for youth (or parents) that is widely available?

>It's much more objectionable when the organization accepts
>*almost* everybody except certain groups against which
>there are widespread popular prejudices.  If this is
>supposed to be an open, non-denominational movement
>which teaches outdoor activities, morals, and good
>citizenship, if you exclude atheists and gays it is
>hard not to make the inference that the BSA accepts
>the popular (false) stereotype that atheists and
>gays cannot be moral or good citizens.  And in fact,
>some posters, such as Mr. Krieger, seem to have stated
>this position explicitly here.  My objection is not
>the legal one that the BSA should not be allowed
>to act on this prejudice, but the moral one that
>teaching this prejudice reinforces bigotry and is
>detrimental to the overall goal of scouting, which
>is promoting good citizenship for a pluralistic
>democratic society.

The BSA and I would argue that an important foundation for promoting
good citizenship is a spiritual foundation.  We want an organization
to try that idea out.  My sons can be in many things.  The Parks and
Recreation department and schools offer activities; sports clubs,
dance groups, art groups, bands, music, marketing clubs, on and on
are available.  Yet outside church I can't think of a single
organization that offers spiritual foundations as a basic part of the
program.  And inside the church I find the focus too narrow.  As a
pluralistic society I believe groups/organizations must also be
allowed to have differences.

It is for this reason that I bring up constitutional rights.  Critics 
of the BSA program seem all too happy that a court has ruled atheists 
must be allowed in, or that someone else has filed a suit to demand 
entry into the BSA.  I find what I view as rights for people to 
organize and practice their religious beliefs, as in the BSA, 
hardly seem secure.

>|> I also sense that part of your arguement is based on the idea that
>|> you don't seek to add an oath, or exclude anything or anyone and
>|> therefore that is a good thing. My problem is that I believe in
>|> practice, admitting atheists would eliminate or more appropriately
>|> *exclude* a religious orientation in an organization, and thus
>|> exclude persons seeking that level or religiousness in an
>|> organization.  In short this is also an exclusionary policy.  After
>|> all, how could an organization have an oath about duty to God and
>|> Country that wouldn't offend atheists.  If they were to be full
>|> members it seems the oath and reverent must leave the BSA program.
>|> 
>|> At this point I think you or others bring up that in fact these
>|> aren't part of the program.  They aren't important. They are easily
>|> eliminated with no impact on the program.  All I can say is that is 
>|> not my experience here.
>|> 

>I have brought this up.  This may be a characteristic of
>scouting in the Bible Belt, where there is more of a default
>assumption that everyone is Christian or at least religious.
>For example, people have mentioned that advancement in
>Cub Scouts and Webelos required membership in an organized
>church or synagogue --- this was definitely not the case
>here in the Northeast where my son was in scouting.  Except
>for the formalities (e.g. "God" in the pledge of allegiance
>and the scout oath), there was *no* religion in scouting.

It is not required that a person be part of an organized religion. 
Only that they express or in different ways think about the
spiritual/metaphysical nature of their lives.

>How would your Nebraska scouting program have been significantly
>different if "reverent" were interpreted more broadly and
>atheists were permitted to advance by making a presentation
>of their moral codes similar to those made by members of
>organized religions?

As I stated earlier in this post, I believe atheists would object to 
allowing a spiritual dimension in the scouts.  I can't see how we 
could have a before meal prayer. I question whether we could honor 
scouts for their religious awards as we currently do.  My experience 
is that in all non-religious organizations, these issues are not 
discussed at all.  It becomes an american taboo.

>(I have shortened the newsgroups line to eliminate the
>cross-posting to groups other than rec.scouting.)

Thanks for doing this Rob, I'm new to newsgroups and didn't notice 
this was occuring.
-- 
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