From: livings@unislc.uucp (Ross Livingston)
Subject: Set up question
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 06:00:46 GMT

I received this response from Greg and he said I may want to post it
to get different opinions, so, here it is.  I'll try to explain any parts
where it may be unclear what we were discussing, and will edit for space.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: frazier@CS.UCLA.EDU


This response ended up being a lot longer than I intended it
to be - I kind of spewed.  You might want to post this whole
thing onto the net, to get some counter opinions, etc.  This
info is all very subjective, there are bound to be disagreements
with some of the things I've said.  Anyway...

   From:  Ross Livingston <livings@cs.utah.edu>
{
here Greg was saying that there are basically 3 approaches to plants
in aquariums, 1) Lots of plants, few fish, low water flow, plants grow
nice and slow. 2) 'high-tech German style' with all the fancy chemicals.
3) No fancy equipment or supplies, just experiment and find out what works
in your setup, that is, which plants will live.
}
   >     >The second route is the high-tech German style
   >     >plant tank.
   > I'm not interested in spending $$ just to have to work more!  I do love
   > the look of a great plant tank, but mine will be a fish tank.

I am hoping that, when I am rich and have tons of idle time,
I'll have the chance to play around and find a compromise
between the Dutch and German styles.  My wife has a real
hands-off philosophy, and since my interventionism is very
intermittent, for something to work for us it has to be able
to go weeks on end unattended (except for feeding).
 
   >     >providing.  Unfortunately, at this moment, all I have
   >     >are hygrophilia, java fern, java moss and water sprite.
   >     >These are four fundamentally unkillable plants.  Vallisneria
   >     >also falls into that category, although it seems to be
   > So I guess these will be possible starting plants for me to consider?

Definitely.  Java fern, especially - it is a very slow grower,
but given bright light has a knack of looking really excellent.
 
   > Will two 24" tubes be enough?  How about 2 18" tubes?  Do I need special
   > tubes, other than what will be provided by O'Dell or Perfecto (haven't 
   > decied yet)?

A 55g tank is 4' long, right?  Use two 48" bulbs.  That is
what we had over our cichlid tank (note the past tense - it
was sold before our last move).  The java fern did great, and
we had an excellent crop of hair algae (don't laugh - it was
really attractive, and the fish loved it as a hiding place.
Our rainbow fish laid eggs in it.).

{
I'm probably going to stick with the 2 2' tubes that come with the hood
included in the combo (Perfecto) or the two 18" tubes with the O'Dell.
I'll just have to find plants that agree (even if they end up being plastic
in the end!
}
  
   > Another thought I had, was to create a desert type of a feeling
   > in the tank.  That is, some nice sandstone, and dead wood from local
   > deserts.  This could be really exciting, and without the plants.

This can create an awesome effect - especially when combined with
a judicious amount of java fern (do I sound like I'm a fan of
java fern? :-).  This is definitely "the" style for African cichlid
tanks.  You can also try adding some potted valisneria, or other
plant.  Using potted plants is nice, cuz you can put some potting
soil in the bottom of the pot, and then gravel on top, and the
potting soil won't pollute your tank.  Also, if things go poorly,
or you want to do some serious pruning and replanting, you can
remove the entire pot from the tank.  The pot itself can be something
simple, like the bottom 3" of a milk jug.  Some nicely arranged rocks
or driftwood will hide the pot (Vinny Kutty hides his pots with
java moss).

   > One more questions still on plants, is substrate, in the context of aquar-
   > iums, a finer dirt or sand that sits under the gravel?  I've never seen it
   > defined but get the idea that it's along these lines.  Do you buy it in 
   > fish stores?  I guess if it's how I am guessing, you don't use it with an
   > UGF, right?

Substrate is whatever you put on the bottom of your tank.  A
rich substrate will be one that contains a lot of nitrates,
phosphates, etc. - usually some mixture of potting soil, clay,
peat, or whatever.  These don't work too well with a UG.
Most tanks have simple gravel substrates, which work fine with
a UG.  Plants prefer a fine substrate, but not too fine - for
example, I have heard people say that sand is too fine for
plants.  I currently have some hygro growing in a pot that has
1.5" of sand over 1.5" potting soil, and it's doing fine, but if
it was 3" of sand, I can imagine there being problems.  A good
gravel is between 1/8" and 1/4".  What we get is #3 sandblasting
grit, which is sold by a local aquarium store.  It's fine enough
to keep most of the ditrius on top (unless you have a UG filter),
but coarse enough to allow a UG filter.  Plants seem to like
it fine (at least, they did until they all died! :-).
  
   >     >will eat your plants.  And, when you get right down to it,
   >     >Tangynikan cichlids are the neatest ones, anyway.  Rift lake

   > Also, aren't these generally a little smaller?  I don't want anything 
   > getting too 'cramped' in my 55g.

I believe that there are more small cichlids from Tangynika than
the other lakes - check out the Julidochromis species.  Handsome
fish, and a lot of fun.
 
   > Definately.  I have a friend who breeds them for local stores and he told
   > me that for one particular species, the average male/female ratio of a fry
   > is something like 1/16 or something like that.  He's tweeked the pH so that
   > his last fry had only 3 females.  Amazing.

That is amazing.  You can get good money breeeding cichlids,
although I can't imagine really making a profit in this hobby
(at least, not while still having fun).
  
   >     >These cichlids love rock formations and caves.  Piling rocks
   >     >in a glass aquarium is tricky business - you might want to
   >     >construct something "fake" and then put it into the aquarium.
   > The rocks and caves idea is right along my 'desert' idea.  Have you
   > ever seen a tank set up like this?

Yes - some have looked faky and stupid, but some have looked
excellent.  It will definitly put your interior decorating
skills to the test.

{
Anyone else ever see something like this set up?  How was it?
Next, Greg was explaining how it's best to set up the aquascaping before
putting it in the tank.
}

   >  I'm not sure what you mean by
   > 'construct something "fake"' though.  Do you mean connect the rocks
   > with wire, etc, before putting them in the tank, or using fake rocks?

Both, actually.  What I'm suggesting is try to avoid a literal
pile of rocks in the corner of the tank.  When we set up our
tank, we did just pile rocks, mostly granite, in the two corners
of the tank, with large pieces of lava rock as the base of each
pile (much lighter than granite).  It worked, but it is a bit scary.
If you fix the rocks together (I'd use silicone), you can create
more of a "wall", thus having your aquascape take up less of
the tank volume than a "pile", and creating less of a ditrius trap.
Driftwood is also much lighter than granite (duh).

   > What are your feelings about a UGF?

My wife and I fight about UG's all the time.  Well, that's an
exaggeration - we don't really fight, and it's not all the time.
Anyway, I don't like UG's.  Tiff will defend them with statements
like "Ditrius wouldn't collect in them if we would remove dead
plant leaves before they mealt."  Yeah, and there'd be no national
debt if we'd just stop deficit spending!  Anyway, I'm kind of
unhappy with UG's, and will strongly lobby for a reverse UG for our
next tank.

{
How about the rest of you?
}

   > I plan on getting a Fluval 303 and was 

Look out - I'm even less happy with cannister filters.
This is mostly cuz I'm a lazy slug, and I hated cleaning out the
cannister filter.  Really too much work for my blood.  Obviously,
that is not a universally shared opinion...

{
Anyone else share his opinion?
}

   > going to use a UGF driven by two Penguin 1140 Power Heads.  I've had peopl
   > tell me NO, don't use a UGF with Africans.  I'm not so sure these people
   > have even raised Africans before.  What do you say?  If I shouldn't use
   > one (UGF), will the fluval be enough filtration?  If I should, how much
   > gravel do I need to keep it buried?

The more gravel you  put over a UG, the harder it is to vacuum.  It
also presents problems in that you will want your rockwork to rest
on the UG plate, rather than on the gravel (otherwise, a digging
fish could cause a rockslide).  However, if you have a small amount of
gravel over your UG plate, it will be easy for a fish to expose
the plate and eliminate your UG filter.  The cure - put a small amount
of gravel over the plate (1/2"), then cover this with platic/
fiberglass window screen.  Now, you can put your rockwork down,
and some more gravel.  Problem - you can't properly vacuum gravel
if it is trapped under a screen.  Solution - reverse under gravel
filter.  I don't know if you are familiar with these - reverse UG's
take water that has already passed though a good mechanical filter
(like the output of a cannister filter), and pump this water under
the UG plate.  This allows the gravel to perform bio-filtration
(which it is great for), but avoids the problem of having it collect
ditrius.  Even better, if the flow is high enough, ditrius will never
settle on the bottom at all, but will eventually get sucked into
your mechanical filter.  Don't want the flow too high, of course.
I've never build a reverse UG, but have read several accounts on
the net - if you are interested, post a request, you should get
one or two first-hand accounts of building/using a RUGF.  Get
the powerheads - you'll want them for water circulation in the
tank.  RUGF's are kind of bad about depleting the dissolved O2.
  
   > So IYOI, since I'm ordering the equipment SOON and can deal with the
   > 'which plant' item later, should I get a UGF and some power heads or
   > look into something else (trickle, wet/dry).  Thanks for all your help.

If you are willing to go the trickle filter route, it is something
to consider.  Somebody on the net (Steve Shine?) uses a trickle
filter + foam fractioner on his rift lake tanks, and reports great
success.  He describes it very much like a low-tech marine tank
(I think he's even one of the guys that adds some marine salt mix to
his water).  I would never recommend buying a trickle filter to
anybody - what they charge is highway robbery, as far as I'm concerned.
If you are willing to build your own, I think it would definitely
be a good way to go.  I especially like the idea of having a sump
under the tank, into which things like heaters can be placed.  With
the return pump in the sump, and a passive syphon/overflow water
drain/prefilter from the tank, you can have a tank with zero
<electrical> gadgets in it - very desireable, from my point of view.
You can even direct some of the water return to a reverse UG,
to help keep the gravel clean (or have no substrate at all, of
course).  As you can see, I'm bubbling with ideas, and can't wait
to have money to spend on all this (what, save for my kids'
education? :-).

Greg
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Ok, now, what do you all think?  Considering I'm getting Tangynikans, in
a 55g, and hope to keep SOME live plants, but probably not a lot as I'll
be relying on some nice rock work for embellishment, what are your recom-
mendations?  My original plans were to use a UGF with 2 power heads, and
a fluval 303.  I've though of doing RUGF and driving it with the Fluval.
I've thought about doing it normal UGF and driving it with the Fluval.
Anyone ever try this?  I guess I'll soon just have to bite the bullet and
order some stuff and learn as I go.  I've sure appreciated all your suggestions
so far.  They're always welcome.  Also, thanks to those who have mailed me
about my water.  Sorry I can't respond but mail to some of you bounces.

-- 
Ross Livingston, Unisys Corp.  |  Phone   (801) 594-6217
322 North  2200 West,   D1V03  |  Fax     801-594-4861 / 801-594-6708
Salt Lake City, UT   84116     |  E-Mail  livings@unislc.slc.unisys.com
Newsgroups: alt.aquaria