HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mgrice@athena.mit.edu (Matthew Grice)
Subject: Lack of OS/2 apps
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:12:42 GMT

Hey folks, if you want to find some good os/2 plugging, try page 97 (I think)
of the August (or October) Compute! magazine.  Rip this article out and\
make copies and give them to all of your co-workers.  Post it to this
group.  Post it to any group.  You won't find much better advocacy
ANYWHERE.  (And this in a game-oriented magazine?)
(incidentally, compute, the old version, was where I learned to program
by typing in and modifying their printouts.  Now that was an awesome 
magazine.  Ahh, the good old days.  'Course, I was about 12 when they
switched over, in '88, I believe.  No more listings. :(

OK, for what this post is really about:

I've been calling the software companies, and I think I have some idea of 
why less os/2 software is being developed than should be.
Here goes.  The average person's thought pattern:
"Well, I feel sorry for all those OS/2'ers.  They don't know what having
a GUI like windows is like. (glad I dont.  I have WPS and Open Look)
"

"Well, why should I feel sorry for them?  They can run Windows programs 
almost as well as I can."

"And windows programs are sooooo awesome."

"You know, why should anyone develop for an OS like os/2 when 
os/2 can run the (obviously superior) windows programs?"

"If windows is good enough for us, it's good enough for them."

Yes, that is the way that the Windows user thinks.  I've heard it several
times from the salescritters.  Trying to justify the lack of os/2
programs by pointing out os/2's [excellent] DOS and WinDOS emulation.

Luckily, there is a way to snap them out of it.
Just try this:

"I'll take my business elsewhere until you start supporting os/2."

Guess I haven't been doing much business lately. :(

Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: wdence@nswc-wo.nswc.navy.mil (Walter Dence)
Subject: Re: Can you cut/paste DOS stuff in OS/2?
Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 23:23:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.004042.28197@grebyn.com> mfraioli@grebyn.com (Marc Fraioli) writes:
>In article <1993Jan24.163244.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> singer@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
>>I have been following the interesting debates on OS/2 vs Windows here in 
>>preparation for buying a new 486 system. One comes with Windows and the other
>>with OS/2. I use Word Perfect (DOS), MaxThink (DOS), Magellan (DOS) and am
>>about to start using Papyrus. In using Papyrus (a powerful bibliography
>>program), I will be cutting and pasting to Word Perfect and possibly to ASCII
>>programs such as MaxThink. It is not clear whether one can with ease cut and
>>paste between these different applications in OS/2. Has anybody tried this? I
>>undertand it can be done in W3.1, but can it be done, and as easily, in 
>>OS/2? (I really want to buy OS/2, so I hope the answer is positive). -- 
>
>The answer is yes, absolutely.
>
>-- 
>Marc Fraioli
>mfraioli@grebyn.com	        	(So I'm a minimalist...)

Ditto yes absolutely.  Use keys:  Alt-k, Alt-y, and Alt-p to
mark, save, and paste.  I rely on this very heavily.  The other day
I even cut from Hg2.6 in graphics mode, and pasted to PMChart.  I
was amazed.



=====================================================================
                       WALTER E. DENCE, JR.
                   Data Acquisition Specialist
                 Influence Mechanisms Branch, G95

Commander, Dahlgren Division                        
Naval Surface Warfare Center     Office:          (301) 394-1707/1960
Dahlgren Division Detachment     Fax:             (301) 394-4510/4727
White Oak, G95 (W. Dence)        DSN (AutoVoN):         290-1707/1960
10901 New Hampshire Ave.         MilNet: wdence@nswc-wo.nswc.navy.mil
Silver Spring, MD 20903-5000     Home:                 (301) 229-7394

         (This is personal opinion, not official opinion.)
=====================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: AmiPro for OS/2 (was Re: Impressions of OS/2 2.1 Beta)
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:05:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.210936.46759@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> thompson@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.180453.18862@wam.umd.edu>, rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>> In article <2b63c878@f514.n202.z1.fidonet.org> Craig_Swanson@f514.n202.z1.fidonet.org writes:
>
>>>I personally asked the product manager for Ami Pro if it would use
>>>Mirrors and his reply was that it would not.  Workplace Shell aware
>>>means that it implements drag-and-drop functionality for things like
>>>printing and file loading.  For example, as I recall you can drag a
>>>document onto the printer and it will be printed by Ami Pro.
>
>The bitching and whining starts:
>> 
>> 
>> 	Big whoo.  In other words, "Workplace Shell Aware"
>> 	is the new OS/2-speak for applications that support the
>> 	OS/2 equivalent of drag and drop.  A buzzword with very limited
>> 	usefulness. 
>> 
>> 	<It's the same under Win31.  I think I've printed this way maybe 
>> 	once under Windows.  Might be nice as an option, but it's really
>> 	not a big deal.  Plus, I don't honestly see how that is a real
>> 	"feature".. It must take, what, 5 minutes to add it?>
>
>Well, Yamanari is now lead contender for the Second Annual Brian Sturgill
>Award.  Drag 'n drop is 'a buzzword with very limited usefulness' in OS/2,
>but in Windows it 'might be nice as an option.'


	Uh-huh.  What's your reading level?

	Read what I wrote again.  I wrote that it's a buzzword of 
	limited usefulness under OS/2 AND windows (if, as was implied
	--What was meant was two features--drag and drop printing
	and opening). 

	Why is it of limited usefulness?  Because it hasn't been concisely
	defined.  Claiming that something is "WPS aware" is quite empty.
	Does it support all of the drag-and-drop to customize features
	that the WPS supports (and everything else)?  Or just some 
	minor subset of them (printing and opening)?  What, can't tell?
	(and that's why I brought it up in the fist place).

	Tim Sipples has pointed out that the person who claimed this was
	what was meant (*not me*) was wrong and that what was meant
	was a full WPS application (i.e., Ami Pro becomes integrated into
	the WPS).

	This is precisely why I asked.  Anyone who thinks OS/2 app writers
	are going to be any more ethical (i.e., in the Windows world, "supports
	new drag and drop" tends to mean drag-to-load and drag-to-print--and
	nothing more) is nuts.  It's important to be _specific_ and not
	use buzzwords that have widely variant definitions. 


>And yes, I think I can vouch for the Lotus programmers, it did take more
>than five man minutes to add...


	With full WPS integration?  Sure.  With ddp and ddo?  No.  




-- 
Attempts to lessen the burden of proof in rape | Why not put me in your kill
trials are violent assaults on civil rights.   | file?  add: "/: rsrodger/h :j"
  =====boycott=is=coercion=is=censorship=is=closed minded=is=cowardice=====
	Pyramid schemes are illegal unless you're the US government.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: drizzt@spock.uucp (Neela Jacques)
Subject: amount of hard drive os2 needs
Organization: Choate Rosemary Hall
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:04:30 GMT


-- 
*******************************************************************************
* Neela Jacques****drizzt@choate.edu*******************************************
***********Caitanyam Atma*******"the self is consciousness"********************
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: fippen@ux2.cso.uiuc.edu (J. Fippen)
Subject: OS/2's greatness will be known in time.
	This is my second try at this post as the first didn't work:
	I hear all the time about people who had problems installing 
	It all boils down to this: if you are willing to accept mediocre
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:51:37 GMT



Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: pvonk@scott.skidmore.edu (Pierre VonKaenel)
Subject: Re: os2 what good is it?
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY, 12866
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 15:46:32 GMT

In article <1jrve7INNma@bigboote.WPI.EDU> trav@wpi.WPI.EDU (Travis Charles Korthas) writes:
>FIRST OF ALL : I AM POSTING THIS FROM A FRIENDS ACCOUNT PLEASE
>SEND ALL REPLIES TO  smiley@bigwpi.wpi.edu
>
>What the HELL is os2 good for?  I heard it was gonna be 50 meg at 
>LEAST!  That would take up almost half my harddrive space.  And for
>what???  I can do anything os2 can do with my windows!  If anyone 
>can explain this garbage to me please do.
>

sigh,  another college student.  Doesn't have his facts straight to
begin with.  Driving down "the strip" in his VW bug looking to drag
everyone in sight.


-- 
Pierre von Kaenel  |  Math & CS Dept | Skidmore College | pvonk@skidmore.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ads from premier issue of PC Tech Journal (Jul 83): 20MB Hard disk from
QCS - Cost: $2999.   Davong 5 MB int. hard disk... only $1465!
From: bdubbs@cs.tamu.edu (Bruce Dubbs)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT to be launched at Comdex/Spring,...
Date: 23 Jan 1993 00:48:44 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
NNTP-Posting-Host: neuron.tamu.edu

In article <1993Jan22.053630.3315@microsoft.com> philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
|In article <MfLQlzO00iUyI6IfRc@andrew.cmu.edu> Carl B Jabido <cj00+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|>Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.os2.advocacy: 20-Jan-93 Re: NT to be
|>launched at Co.. by Yamanari@wam.umd.edu 
|>>         What a load of crap.  36Mbytes for the "demonstration" version?
|>>         I must have missed that with the beta that runs in 12.  
|>
|>12 physical memory, but add to that a 25 meg swap file -> 37 megs.  At
|>least on my system.
|
|    Swap space is not memory.  If the writer of the original article
|was confusing the two, he is incompetent and shouldn't be writing
|even pseudo-technical stories.

Oh well... Physical Memory... Virtual Memory they're all the same
arn't they?    :-)

   -- Bruce

--
Bruce Dubbs                   |  Oxymorons of note:
bdubbs@neuron.tamu.edu        |  Honest Politician, Political Science,
                              |  Scrupulous Lawyer
From: chris@cad.gatech.edu (Chris McClellen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Easy programming a must ??
Date: 27 Jan 1993 09:16:34 -0500
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, CAE/CAD Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: cae.cad.gatech.edu

In <1993Jan27.123019.26640@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> gtd543a@sol.crt.columbia.edu (death) writes:

>Timothy F. Sipples (sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: In article <1993Jan25.124252.14512@dde.dk> tpo@dde.dk (Thomas peter Sonne Olesen) writes:
>: >The problem with the young folks is allso the main reason why the minimum
>: >hardware requirments for OS/2 is still a barrier.

[ stuff about 6 Meg ram min deleted ]

>I wouldn't call this a minimum.  That's the minimum for the operating
>system to -work-.  At least with regard to disk space, who would
>want an operating system and -nothing- else?

>I am running it on a 486-33 with 8MB of RAM.  I think disk space, and
>then RAM, are the two most important things to OS/2.  Once you have
>-at least- 100MB, then go for the RAM upgrade.  A friend
>of mine has 20MB of RAM on his motherboard, and his system flies
>compared to mine.

I have a 486/33 with 8 megs of ram as well, and I run a lot of apps
at the same time, and there is little noticeable slowdown.
Even with many apps running, my comm sessions still get better CPS
than they did when I was running DOS.  If your system is running
slow on 8 megs, its because you have some settings wrong.

I think 50 megs of HD space is enough for OS2, unless you plan
on getting quite a few apps.  Full install will leave you with
20 megs.  Even when running alot of apps, my swap file hasn't
grown much.  I don't think the 16Meg ram is worth it, because if I
can run a bunch of apps now without slowingdown/growing swap,
I definitly don't need 16MB, and I suspect the average user wont
either.  I could see the 16MB comming in when some user decides
to open 10 dos sessions with 2 meg Xms, 2 Meg EMS.

But 8 megs is good, and I dont consider it a minimum since quite a few
apps run in it, and run well.  If it were a minimum, I probably would
barely be able to run 2.

-- 
Chris McClellen                  | "If at first you dont succeed... re
Georgia Institute of Technology  | #define success..." - Anon.
chris@cad.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: os2man@panix.com (Larry Salomon Jr.)
Subject: Re: Upset about IBM misinformation.
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 13:05:34 GMT

In <1993Jan27.212704.23292@fcom.cc.utah.edu> brian@jaguar.cs.utah.edu (Brian Sturgill) writes:

>Why is it my job to point out Microsoft's problems... there seem to be
>plenty of people that do that in this group already... why add me?
>Also there's a question of who screws up more often.
>Microsoft has basically done a rather competent job with Windows and Windows
>NT.  I don't see Microsoft running around offering watches for leads on
>available shareware.  I don't see them making wild statements about
>their rate of sales.  I don't see them lying about NT ship date slippage.
>Really the only thing I can say bad is that they are not as public
>about bugs in their products (and the availability of fixes) as I would like.

MS might not make "wild statements" about their rate of sales, but their CEO
doesn't hesitate to point out that IBM includes "bundled systems" in their
count as though his own company didn't do the same.

MS might not lie about date slippage, but they don't hesitate to state their
"expected" ship date.  While IBM does the same, MS does it a *lot* more
frequently.

I tend to agree about the publicly-available bug knowledge, but then again
IBM doesn't do much in this regard either.

>>    If you are not going ot be fair, expect some harsh criticism.

>Show me where I was unfair to IBM in that post.

It's not necessarily that you are unfair, it's that we (me included) don't
like to hear extreme criticism about the product around which this newsgroup
was chartered and (in the same breath) praise about a direct competitor's
product.  It just doesn't belong here.

Cheers,
Q
-- 
Have a question for the OS/2 Programmer's Monthly (Electronic) Magazine?
Send me email and include your permission to place the question in the
mag!  The best questions of each month will be included.  More information
on "OS/2 PM Magazine" can be found in comp.os.os2.programmer!
From: claudio.fahey@idcbbs.com (Claudio Fahey) 
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Over 16 megs !
Date: 23 Jan 93 15:15:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: IDC BBS - Alameda, CA - 510-865-7115
Reply-To: claudio.fahey@idcbbs.com (Claudio Fahey) 

To: menaf00@DMI.USherb.CA (FRANCOIS MENARD)

FM>  For all those of you saying that they had problems with more than 16 megs
FM>  of RAM on an ISA bus, IBM solved the problem once for all in the 2.1beta

FM>  OS/2 v2.1 sees all of my 20 megs !! (Even without a new OS2LDR !)

What kind of hard disk controller do you have?  I have an Adaptec 1542
bus mastering controller which uses DMA to transfer data.  I have an
ISA computer which probably only has a 24 bit DMA channel.  Do you
know if I will be able to use more than 16 megs?  If you have an IDE
controller this wouldn't be a problem because it doesn't use DMA to
transfer the data.
---
 . OLX 2.1 TD . Why do we park in driveways and drive on parkways?
                                   
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: roland@margaret (David A. Braun)
Subject: Re: Over 1,100 OS/2 2.0 apps ship in 92'
Organization: Choate Rosemary Hall
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:28:55 GMT

In article <1993Jan16.233350.6069@cs.brown.edu> wcn@cs.brown.edu (Wen-Chun Ni)  
writes:
> In article <1993Jan16.223239.13506@itsmail1.hamilton.edu>  
jmalloy@itsmail1.hamilton.edu (Joseph T. Malloy) writes:
> >
> >Doug Hamilton of C-Shell fame has reported that he's currently selling
> >more copies of the NT port of the C-Shell than the OS/2 version (which
> >has been out in various incarnations for some years now).
> >
> >He's also been wrestling with various compilers for OS/2 as he
> >recompile the C-Shell (with appropriate changes, I gather) for 32 bit,
> >multi-etc, operation. The only problem is that once done, the 32-bit
> >versions run slower than the 16 bit ones (and he's had some high-powered
> >help in trying to optimize; he's not done yet, though).
> >
> >This info comes from his postings on BIX/WIX, btw.
> >
> >Just a data point or two, but odd ones, it seems to me...
> >
> 
> What's the purpose of the Hamilton CShell as long as we have bash+emx?
> Note that 4os2 is good enough to compete with any Unix shell except
> for the job control (since OS/2 doesn't have the hook, I guess.) So
> can anyone give me the information about 4NT? Yeah! This is why Hamilton's
> Cshell can survive in NT. Don't forget that the Unix utilities like
> find, awk, m4, etc, can be found in ftp-os2. Why should we waste our
> money to buy the Hamilton products?
> 
> The old DOS days had almost passed. Guys like Hamilton will not have a
> place in the current market as long as GNU software continues to flow
> into OS/2. 
> 
> You think the words from such a guy is important to justify the fate
> of OS/2? I think not.
> 
> 

Where can I get this C-Shell for OS/2... This would be great to replace the
DOS-Like CMD Shell included with OS/2...

<roland>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: roland@margaret (David A. Braun)
Subject: Re: Does IBM have an Internet email address?
Organization: Choate Rosemary Hall
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:45:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan14.050306.4622@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu  
(Mike Levis) (OS/2) writes:
> In article <1993Jan12.205258.2724@sequent.com> furballs@sequent.com (Paul  
Penrod) writes:
> >In article <1993Jan10.072115.12666@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>  
mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Mike Levis) (OS/2) writes:
> [...]
> [...Mike recommends to use c.o.o.beta for suggestions, too ...]
> [...]
> 
> >I would second that motion. IT would provide a forum where beta
> >testers could compile their information as a valuable resource for
> >IBM, developers and users alike. Right now the only real
> >comprehensive listing that I have seen has been the FAQ posted by
> >Timothy Sipples. Hats off to Mr. Sipples on an excellent job.
> >
> >Oh, one more thing. Make the group moderated. This way, hopefully
> >the advocacy and the sniveling will stay in .advocacy where it
> >belongs.
> >
> >...Paul
> 
> I don't think it should be moderated -- who wants to volunteer to be
> moderator?  (in fact, we are still waiting for someone to volunteer to
> moderate c.o.o.announce)  And the moderator will have to sift through
> a lot of mail.  In c.o.o.advocacy, when person A says ``I want feature
> XYZ'', then person B will offer a counter-view.  Other people who agree
> with person B will not oppose person A's view since person B already
> did.  But if c.o.o.beta were to be moderated, then every time some person
> A posts ``I want feature XYZ'', then person B and say 20 others will
> "post" to the moderator (each person not knowing that the others "posted").
> That would be a lot of mail for the moderator to sift through, and he
> still would have to decide which one counter-view to post, and wait for
> the onslaught of "religious" views supporting person A.
> 
> We will have the ``make HPFS case sensitive like UNIX!'' and ``make PM
> windows get focus without clicking, like X!'' type of suggestions with or
> without c.o.o.beta, but at least now we will have a place where so-called
> "minor" suggestions can be made, like maybe ``whenever a DOS program (that
> started from an OS/2 command line) exits, the DOS window closes immediately.
> IBM, can you provide the option to suspend that window?'' or something.
> 

Here agreed... 
	We NEED to have more OS/2 Newsgroups... and DEFINATELY:
		comp.os.os2.beta
		   -AND-
 		comp.os.os2.announce

<roland>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: AmiPro for OS/2 (was Re: Impressions of OS/2 2.1 Beta)
From: f67709907@milori.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)
Date: 23 Jan 93 15:03:21 MST
 <1993Jan22.141835.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> <1993Jan22.233940.1843@midway.uchicago.edu>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-User: f67709907

In article <1993Jan22.233940.1843@midway.uchicago.edu>, sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Timothy F. Sipples) writes:
> In article <1993Jan22.141835.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> f67709907@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin) writes:
>>I think Ami Pro for PM will be a straight port of the Windows version, and
>>will languish on version 3 while Lotus cranks out versions 5 and beyond
>>for Windows.
>>
>>That is, if Lotus ever does release a PM version.  They certainly won't
>>take advantage of OS/2 EAs, long file names, or threading, or any of the
>>good stuff OS/2 has.
> 
> AmiPro for OS/2 2.0 will be full 32-bit, Workplace Shell aware,
> multithreaded, HPFS aware, etc.  Ditto 1-2-3 2.0, Freelance Graphics,
> and cc:Mail.
> 
> cc:Mail should be available now; 1-2-3 2.0 and Freelance Graphics in
> February; AmiPro in March or April, according to what I'm hearing.
> 
> Another bit of rumor: the Windows people at Lotus have been drooling
> over the OS/2 version.

These are heartening rumors.  Where'd you get these particular ones from?

BTW, AmiPro is getting many more kudos in the Windows groups than WinWord
or WPWin, so a really great implementation of AmiPro would help OS/2's
cause more than all other 1100 alleged existing OS/2 apps put together.
MY bleak vision of AmiPro OS/2 was really intended to spur you folks
on to demand the best word processor possible.

>>P.S.: Where is Stacker OS/2 now?  Talk about vaporware....
> 
> I'm hearing first quarter on it as well, but why don't you ask Stac
> Electronics?

Don't need to.  I've got 200 MB of data stacked on my 170 MB hard disk
for over a year now, and it's purring just fine right now.  Before I
try OS/2, a disk compressor HAS to be there for me.

Besides,  I've heard Stacker OS/2 would be here RSN for the past 6 months,
and was wondering whether Stac had it as a high priority.  If I called 
them up about this, they'd invariably say "Sure it is!", so I was looking
for a more realistic view here.
--
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin     "Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate
f67709907@ccit.arizona.edu      things." -- Dan's advice to Pres. Clinton

   Delightful Things
     A love unknown to others.
     To have solved a riddle.
     A real bargain at a shop.
     A letter from one's sweetheart.
     When something one has ordered turns out well.
	-- from _Inumakura_ (The Dog Pillow)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy