From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Yeshaya 7:14 
Organization: University of Turku
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 09:04:23 GMT

hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:

>In article <LJMORLY.92Sep17113959@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep15.165922.9989@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
>>> In article <LJMORLY.92Sep15173910@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>>> >'Almah' in Isaiah 7:14 must mean virgin in the context, no matter do
>>> >you translate it as 'virgin' (like Septuagint) or 'marrigeable girl'.
[...]
>And I do want to thank you for the suggestions you originally made
>that showed the point I made more clearly.

???

>>> Therefore, the Lord, on His own, shall give you a
>>> sign; behold *the* young woman is with child, and she shall bear
>>> a son and she shall call his name Immanuel.
>> 
>>Lachen yiten Adonai hu lachem ot hine ha'alma hara veyoledet ben
>>vekarat shmo Immanuel.
>>
>>The verbs 'hara' and 'karat' are in the same form, thus they are both in
>>future tense. I.e. 'will bear child' and 'will call his name'.

>As I point out in the case of Shimshon's mother, it is possible
>that it is the future tense, but
>it is used when the woman will give birth within a year (also Sarah
>with Yitzchak).

>However, in Hebrew the Vav can be a "Vav Hamehapeches" which causes
>the tense of the verb to change from past to future and vice versa
>(as Vayomer translates as and he said).  Also it could also be the
>"Tzivui" (command tense) in which case it would mean "and she
>*will* call him" (some say the vowelization should be vekarata and
>you shall call him).

Tzivui is kra/kir'i. That vav hamehapechet came to my mind as well...
BTW where do you get that "within a year" ?

>>> 1. The word hinei - behold - denotes an immediate occurrence as
>>> in Genesis 15:4 "And behold the word of the Lord came to him
>>> saying ..."

'Hine' is like an exclamation and doesn't necessarily denote immediate 
occurrance, at least not in the middle of a prophesy. This verse (Is. 7:14)
begins with "Lachen _yiten_ Adonai hu lachem ot" - "Thus God himself _will_
give you a sign", not "Hine noten Adonai..."

>>> Had this been meant to reference an event 730 years later, it
>>> would have said something on the order of "And it will be at the
>>> end of days..."
>>
>>Ps. 40:8: Az amarti _hine_ bati bim'gilat sefer katuv alai.
>>
>>Which happened about 1000 years later.

>Context please.  Also note that Tehillim are in the Kesuvim and are
>metaphorical songs of praise.  This is a nevua and therefore must
>be accurate.

You are correct, this is a prophesy. As to the context, I'd say this is
enough: Ps. 40:7-9 (6-8):
 "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced
(/opened; LXX: but a body you have prepared for me); burnt offerings 
and sin offerings you did not require. Then I said, "Here I am, I have 
come -- it is written about me in the scroll. I desire to do your will,
O my God; your law is within my heart."
In verse 13 (12) is mentioned the word 'avonotai', but it cannot belong
to this context; otherwise the whole thing wouldn't make sense.  

>>> 2. The word Almah is used by xians as virgin because Miriam and
>>> Rebecca are described by it.  However, the word means young
>>> woman regardless of her virginity.  Example is in Proverbs
>>> 30:18-20.
>>
>>Why do you think the 4th example is given; is it compared or contrasted to 
>>the 3 previous (in verse 19) ?
>>
>>> 18:  Three [things] were hidden from me and four I did not know.
>>> 19:  The way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a
>>>     rock, the way of a ship in the heart of the sea, and the way of
>>>     a man with a young woman (bealmah).
>>> 20:  So is the way of an adulterous woman; she eats, and wipes
>>>     her mouth, and says, "I have not sinned".
>>

>The four examples in 19 are used as comparisons to 20.  That is, the
>item that is the same between them (being deniable) is the point of
>what follows.

You have verse 18 mistranslated. There is the word 'nifle'u' -- the form
'nifla' means 'wonderfull, marvelous', and the noun form 'pele' means
'wonder, miracle'.

>>> Proverbs above.  He then lists the two possibilities (the
>>> prophet's or the king's wife) and says that it must have been
>>> the king's wife.
>>
>>> 3. "the young woman is with child".  
>>
>>>   a.  The young woman means a specific woman the king knew
>>
>>>   b.  She is currently pregnant at the time the prophet is
>>>       speaking.  This is the present not 600 years later.
>>
>>The 'almah' can't be either the kings or the prother's wife, since
>>the Rabbinic alternative for 'virgin' is 'young marrigeable girl'.
>>Or are you suggesting that this girl is zona ? (About being pregnant
>>see above.)

>As I pointed out, the term is that of age (and can refer to a young
>girl who is married).

It isn't and if you say it doesn't mean 'virgin' exclusively, then it
can't refer to a married girl. However, the correct meaning is 'virgin'
(ref. Song os Songs 6:8).

>  However as I stated, she could have married
>the king or the prophet immediately after the prophesy and given
>birth a year later.  Note that originally airusin (loosely
>translated as "betrothal") and nesuin (loosely translated as
>"marriage") were separated by about a year and during that year the
>woman was considered "married" but forbidden to the "husband".
>Nowadays, both parts of the ceremony are carried out together.

What's this, a stage between married and not married ??? You just said
the girl is presently pregnant. 

>>> 4. and she shall *call his name* Imanu-El.  Not that it is his
>>> name but that it will be the name she gave him (not what the
>>> Xian's call their man).
>>
>>Compare Is. 9:5 (9:6) and Jer. 23:5-6.

>As I said before, RaDaK claims that this was a command of
>Yeshaya that she was to name him this and not part of the
>prophecy.  He states that the prophecy was that in a few years
>(before he could tell the difference between good and evil) the
>enemy would be destroyed.

RaDaK also says that the contemporaries of the Messiah will call him 
El (God), because his origins are from old, from ancient times (mikedem
mimei olam).

Is. 9:5 (9:6): "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the
government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderfull 
Councellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Targum Yonatan refers to Messiah here.

About Jer. 23:6:
BC>MIDRASH MISHLE[10:21];Rab Huna counted amongst the seven Names of
BC>Messiah also:  HaShem Zidkenu, [Referring to Jer.23:6].
BC>[Midrash Echa (1:51):]...What is the Name of King Messiah?    To this
BC>answered Rabbi Abba bar Kahana: HaShem is His Name, for it is written:
BC>'This is the Name whereby He shall be called: HaShem Zidkenu'.

>Note the names of the Yeshaya's other children as well.

There wasn't anyone called Immanuel.

>>> 5. In verse 16 it says "For when the lad does not yet know how to
>>> reject bad and choose good ...", something the Xian's claim their
>>> man knew always (having godly powers).
>>
>>Some Christians...

>Point noted.  Some xians claim that their man did not know the
>difference between good and bad as a child.  How this relates to
>the simultaneous claim that he was a divinity I do not understand.
>Perhaps it has something to do with the concept of avatar used in
>religions such as Hinduism in which a god "inhabits" a human being
>or a statue or an animal.

I wonder why Shimon ben Koziva was given the name Bar-Kochava, Son of star...
Yeshua is fully human, yet the Son of God; not any pagan avatar. 
Hebr. 5:7-10: "During the days of Yeshua's life on earth, he offered up 
prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could 
save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and,
once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who
obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of
Melchizedek."

>____________________________________________________________________
>| Hillel Markowitz    |  Said the fox to the fish, join me ashore  |
>| H_Markowitz@att.com |  The fish are the Jews, Torah is the water |
>|_____________________|____________________________________________|
>>
>>Yeshua is the Torah. Im ein ata lecha Yeshua lecha. 
>          ^           Hashem Li lo irah.
>          not

Deut. 18:18-19: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from 
among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will 
tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my
words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to
account."

>No y'shu is the shore (actually it may be an asteroid as there is
>at least air on shore).

Why ?

(I'm using another news program than usually... Hmmm, Let's see what 
happens if I press this button here...)

- Laura