HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:29:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec17.212916.27596
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting

In article <1992Dec17.181022.13311@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
	hades@Dartmouth.Edu writes:

> jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) writes:

> >...I strongly favor the creation of a
> >single newsgroup open to discussion from and about all native peoples.
> 
>     Actually, there is at least one reason why. Most of these people
> have groups already in the soc.culture.* hierarchy. The large majority
> of Europe and Asia, as well as Africa and Mexico already have
> soc.culture groups that handle the function that people want for
> soc.native. This makes soc.native extremely redundant, IMHO.

Well, as I just wrote in response to Brian's last remarks along these same
lines, it's just not the same having a soc.culture.australia, for instance,
to talk about aboriginal peoples, since the issues of these people are as
different from those of the "mainstream" folks in Australian society as
those of American Indians are in the United States.  You can apply this
same argument to each country/region and its corresponding existing news-
groups.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:03:27 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>If you are presuming to speak for them, you had better make the best attempt
>>that you can to reach them. Anything less and you are stripping them of
>>their "rights". Three or four times with an obscure subject line is NOT
>>your best, is it?
>You're forgetting the messages posted with an explicit Subject: line...

All ONE of them?

>I assume you have a better idea. Please state it. I might even go along with
>it, if it's workable.

It won't be to you. Trust me. 

>>But they had to know TO read the articles to PREVENT what they didn't know
>>was going to occur. 
>They made a *choice* not to read the article. Informed or no, we *cannot*
>force him to read the article. If they choose to not read and respond to an
>article with the subject "They want to rename rec.music.synth", what can we do
>for them?

How about some net history? How about posting the articles more frequently?
How about explaining (in simple terms) what can happen (c.f.
alt.folklore.comptuers) in USENET politics?

>>>Is it your contention that professional keyboardists are simply
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>too damned dumb?

Well...it was your implication.

>I have no doubt that more folks would vote NO if the vote were to be
>invalidated and repeated, if only because you've incited the masses...the only
>problem is that you waited a month too long to start stirring the pot.

Is _that_ why you are so opposed to a revote?

>I've considered your point of view, and have blown more holes in it than a
>shotgunned Swiss cheese. You choose not to accept that; that's your
>prerogative, but don't accuse me of not having considered it.

It's my point of view. Sorry. 

>There is no way to tell otherwise when dealing with a process that requires
>voluntary participation. To say otherwise is to accuse those who do not vote
>of stupidity or worse.

How about misapplied but intelligent filtering of articles?

>>How can you show 24 lines of body AND at least 4 header lines in one 
>>screenful if the default number of lines is 24? 
>OK, let me be a little clearer: it shows the user the header lines, waits for
>a keypress, then shows the next 24 lines.

And the user hits 'n' because there's nothing that interests them apparent on
the first page.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   Advice is priceless; when it becomes interference it is preposterous.
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:41:48 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <509@audfax.audiofax.com>, brian@audiofax.com (Brian Troxell) writes:
> In article <12794.9212082324@csparc12.scs.leeds.ac.uk> ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk writes:
> >In article <99597@netnews.upenn.edu> you write:
> [deleted]
> 
> I'm sure ross-c goes blissfully ignorant about this problem, otherwise
> he would have inquired about how to fix it by now. See! Those of you
> elitists who can attribute posts are NO HELP AT ALL!!!

It's not us elitists who can attribute posts, it's our elitist news
posting software :)

> I have no suggestions to offer on how to fix this problems, but I will
> gladly flame any suggestion that is made.

I propose a modificatiuon of the guidelines to FORCE people to read a
message on how to properly add attributes to replies. This modification 
would prevent people from posting to the net unless they had read the
guidelines and properly passed a 45 question test. 

> B-), for the sarcasm impaired.

Indeed.. 

;-) back at you for clarification


-- 
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 - or - ..uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave                      |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
                                                         | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.baltic/balticum/baltics
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 10:55:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.191637.9108@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
> Tapani Hietnaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>>  3) There is no common Baltic language, either.
>>     Estonians and Finns are Baltic Finns. This important thing
>>     is neglected in many cases (even in Scandinavia).
> 
> 1) There is no common language Africa either.


And, accordingly, all chat about "African culture" is nonsense.
There are numerous cultures in Africa.

 
> 2) About the concept of Baltic Finns, permit me to quote a mail from
>    another Finnish correspondent who nails this down very well:


That's his/her opinion that is based mostly on ignorance:

 
> ==>This objection is totally out-of-place here. "Baltic Finnish" is a
> ==>purely linguistic term for a group of languages around the Gulf of
> ==>Finland. I have never seen it anywhere else than in texts dealing
> ==>with classification of the Finno-Ugric languages. 


Of course it is a linguistic term, what else? The Baltic Finnish
cultures are profoundly based on language (like Finnish and Estonian).

(There exists also the racial term "Eastern Baltic" but I'll discuss
this issue somewhere else.)

> I am sure that
> ==>very few Finns know their language belongs to a group by that name.


One can't justify one's own ignorance by referring to the ignorance of
others.


with best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum

Xref: sparky news.groups:24238 alt.native:1399
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native.america
Date: 14 Dec 92 04:58:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec14.045801.13711
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting

In article <1992Dec14.043139.12761@athena.cs.uga.edu> brown@pollux
	(Daniel Brown) writes:

> ... I think "soc.culture.indigenous" would be better.

I could live with "soc.culture.indigenous" or "soc.culture.aboriginal,"
but I feel it's best to keep names short, particularly when there's
danger of misspellings, as there is in the case of "indigenous."

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Keywords: native, straw vote, concensus
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 18 Dec 92 23:24:25 GMT


JJ Farrell,

If you are out there, I have received your vote but my
acknowledgement to you was kicked back to me.  Thanks.


Mike

==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
Xref: sparky news.groups:24200 alt.native:1391
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: soc.culture.aboriginal.american?
Date: 13 Dec 92 20:13:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec13.201327.23092
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting

In article <EMCGUIRE.92Dec10102232@fuller.intellection.com>
	emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:

> I have a suggestion for the name of the group.  I prefer "aboriginal"
> to "native" to avoid the "hey, I was born here, too!" dispute.  I used
> to live near the Canadian border, and noticed that Canadian media
> prefer "aborigines" over "Indians."  I thought it was an improvement.
> Thus "s.c.aboriginal.american".  This could easily be extended to
> future aboriginal cultural groups, and also parallels the other
> "*.american" groups.

I could accept the term "aboriginal" as a replacement for "native."
However, I would like to note that the term "aborigine" is one which I
have never heard anyone in Canada use (and I lived in that country for
three years).  The terms currently in most widespread use are "First
Peoples" or "aboriginal peoples" - but NEVER "aborigines" - which I
have only heard used (often with a derisive intent) about the First
Peoples of Australia.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:36:50 GMT

In article <2B28F203.3136@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee):
>>Usenet documentation, as is, is more of an excuse to pummel users with
>>"why didn't you read the documentation?" than a true information source.
>1. The documentation _is_ an information source.
>2. Some people do ask "why didn't you read the documentation?".
>Both items are true.  Neither of them is more true than the other.

You're being excessively literal-minded.  That was an English sentence, not a
mathematical formula, and the linguistic construct I used does mean something,
if not exactly what you think it means.  (Not only that, I didn't even use
the phrase "more true", although I did use the separate words "more" and
"true".)
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.cyber renaming and unmoderation
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 255-9121
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:40:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.204648.24299@news2.cis.umn.edu> thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.055721.2255@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi> elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen) writes:
>>Laura Mollett (lmollett@lunatix.uucp) wrote:
>>  Cyberpunk contains elements unknown in fantasy, other scifi, historical,
>>or many other genres I can think of. Cyberpunk LIVES on these elements,
>>they are the cornerstones of the genre. And, as I said, they are quite
>>unknown in other genres.

Hmm...I didn't write this.  I replied to this and quoted this in my reply, but
these are not my original thoughts.  My opinions on the matter run somewhat
like yours, and I also quoted a current game in which I'm involved where my
character has dealings with an AI that is NOT a cyber game...it's a post-holo
world, and mentioned the "at high levels magic and tech are indisguishable 
thang"...  I believe we agree on most base points.
			Laura Mollett
>

[Rest of well-written post deleted]
Xref: sparky news.groups:24240 alt.native:1400
From: floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native.america
Date: 14 Dec 92 06:56:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: raven.1992Dec14.065618.22240
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network

In article <1992Dec14.045801.13711@spdcc.com> gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.043139.12761@athena.cs.uga.edu> brown@pollux
>	(Daniel Brown) writes:
>
>> ... I think "soc.culture.indigenous" would be better.
>
>I could live with "soc.culture.indigenous" or "soc.culture.aboriginal,"
>but I feel it's best to keep names short, particularly when there's
>danger of misspellings, as there is in the case of "indigenous."

I like all three:  indigenous, aboriginal, or native.

I like the sound of "native" best, but that is simply because here
in Alaska that is how everyone, native and non-native, refers to
the difference.

Floyd
-- 
floyd@ims.alaska.edu        A guest on the Institute of Marine Science computer
Salcha, Alaska              system at the University of Alaska at Fairbanks.
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Model UN newsgroup (was talk.politics.model-un)
From: <F36SI@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Saturday, 12 Dec 1992 21:28:36 EST
 <1992Dec7.015122.28086@midway.uchicago.edu><1992Dec9.123144.2824@nntp.hut.fi>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

         I do believe that it is time for a call for votes.  I am in the
         process of drawing up a proposal for Dave Lawrence.   Hope it will
         be up soon...
Matt
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Futility
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:22:38 GMT

jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>Number one, directed to Dave Hayes:  Dave, what are you getting from this?  Do
>you get some sort of adrenalin rush arguing with people over the insertion of
>the word "makers" into the synth group's name?  Why don't you just give it a
>rest?

To do so is to ensure defeat. And, unlike most, I get a lot out of heated
discussions. That's not to say that I endeavor to create them, (it's my
first) but this time it was appropriate.

>Don't answer.  Just shut up.  Both sides.  It's the only way either can win.

Just how do I win from shutting up? 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

             It is a poor workman who blames his tools.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: edwardw@rta.oz.au (Ed Wilkinson)
Subject: Re: RFD: talk.politics.patriot
Summary: yes!
Organization: none
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 22:16:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.020406.7278@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1gjc0uINN2qa@news.UU.NET> brians@atlastele.com (Brian Sheets) writes:
>>I would like to propose a newsgroup for the patriot movement in the U.S.
>>This would include discussions on rights violations by legislation, gold 
>>and silver as payment for debts, freedom organizations and many other basic 
>>US Constitutional topics.
>
>I'm all for it, if it keeps the loonies in one place.

Speaking as a non American, I think this is one of the reasons that the USA
will continue going down the plughole. Don't you guys realise what's
happening to your country? Freedom and privacy are getting eroded all the
time by the IRS, INS, DEA and others and you just don't seem to care! What
the hell business does the govt have in poking its nose in people's private
affairs? The politicians continue to spend the country into debt,
increasing taxes and reducing personal freedom and nobody cares. The USA
started out well, creating a govt to protect the individual rights of its
citizens. Unfortunately, it's been mainly downhill since then, as everyone
abdicates their rights and responsibilities for their own life and lets the
govt to it all. Thus, the country becomes more of a socialist welfare state
every day. If the US is the last bastion of capitalism in the world, then
god help the rest of us.

Sorry for this outburst, I know it should probably be elsewhere, but we've
got to stand up for our rights before the govt takes them all from us. It's
the same here in Oz and the rest of the `free' West. At a time when the ex
communist countries are rushing towards capitalism and market economies,
the West is moving the other way. Will we ever learn?

	Ed

p.s. read HSL for more info, what to do, etc.
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<EMCGUIRE.92Dec12155241@mother.intellection.com>
	<14DEC199210383243@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:33:01 GMT

In article <14DEC199210383243@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov> bschlesinger@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Barry Schlesinger) writes:

   Ed McGuire is listed as a frequent voter against groups that
   generally pass with a small amount of opposition.

More accurately, I try to vote vote on all proposals, and I vote
against proposals only when they are both of no perceived value to my
customers and missing any stated justification in terms of traffic.

   Any rule that is based on the rationale above would be counter to
   the expressed wishes of the vast majority of users.

Of /voters./  But a tiny minority of users.  The question was raised
recently whether a 300-vote response is even statistically significant
any more.

   And many of the groups on the net would not exist.

More of them would exist as mailing lists, and there would be better
support for mailing lists in reader software.  It's important to
distinguish the transport mechanism from the user interface.

   The minimum number of YES votes limit is designed to cover the
   question of lack of interest.

Yes, and lack of interest indicates that transporting the group with
netnews would be a waste of resources.

   A large potential audience may exist for groups that do not exist as 
   mailing lists.

In that case the traffic would already exist in other newsgroups.
That's what happens in many of the cases:  An audience develops in an
existing newsgroup, and the group is split when the traffic warrants.

   Users with limited disk space may not wish to subscribe to a
   mailing list that has a large number of daily messages that may use
   up space needed by the user for other purposes.

If it has a large number of daily messages I would expect it to be a
good candidate for a newsgroup, and in fact I look for that sort of
comment in the proposal when choosing my vote.

   And it may not be the most effective use of disk space.  Consider
   the amount of disk space that might be taken up by duplicate
   messages on astronomy on machines at gsfc.nasa.gov, stsci.edu,
   noao.edu, and nrao.edu.

And propagating articles of interest to a relatively few sites to /all
netnews sites/ is not a duplicative waste of disk space, not to
mention transport bandwidth?
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Xref: sparky news.groups:24363 alt.native:1419
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:36:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec15.093608.5976
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting

In article <idoy.724386700@crux1.cit.cornell.edu> idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
	(Mike Wilson) writes:

> CALL FOR A STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
>
> Please write to the following address and vote for the name
> of a native newsgroup:
     ^

I feel that a person should be allowed to vote for more than one newsgroup
name, and should indicate a first, second, and third (at least) choice.  I
managed an informal vote to name a new newsgroup in the alt hierarchy not
too long ago, and it worked out rather well, and everyone seemed satisfied
with the result.  If someone just votes for a single name, we have no way
of realistically assessing the support a given group has.  We used a very
simple formula to tally the results, and all but a couple of people found
that formula acceptable.  (The basic idea was that we counted all the first
choice votes, and then added in the second and third choice votes of every-
one who hadn't picked the winner based on first-choice votes alone.  Some
people felt that second and third-choice votes should be weighted, so they
wouldn't count for as much as first choice votes, but I and others couldn't
see that doing so was fair.)

As an example of what I'm talking about, as I've already said, I could live
with "soc.culture.{native,indigenous,aboriginal}."  I'd like to have a way
to indicate that fact in my vote, so that if my first choice is not in the
clear majority, I still have a voice in the outcome.

What do others feel?

Gary

-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: How can I get my site to carry more groups
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<1992Dec15.055722.27349@unvax.union.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:50:51 GMT

JLaG> == Josh LaGrange <lagrangj@unvax.union.edu>
Chuq> == chuq@Apple.COM (Eeyore's Evil Twin) writes:

 JLaG> I'm at Union College, we run nn, we have relativelt few groups
 JLaG> available.  I've already sent a message to the sys-op here, but he
 JLaG> ignored it.  What should I do?

 Chuq> Offer to pay for them.

 JLaG> Well, golly-gee, don't you think the $17,000 I pay for tuition, not
 JLaG> to mention room and board money, is sufficient.  Considering that
 JLaG> there are a couple thousand of us paying tha tuition, I'd say so.

USENET's included in your tuition money there?  What a deal!  I recommend
you show your newsadmin the section of the catalog (or tuition bill) that
covers USENET, and see if that helps.

(When I was at BU, "normal" students didn't get USENET, and there were a
lot more than 2000 of us.)

Or you could always try a public access site.  Heck, for $17K a year, I bet
you could get Barry Shein to give you all the USENET you could ever want
*and* teach you computer science.
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:55:54 GMT

gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

>> Please write to the following address and vote for the name
>> of a native newsgroup:
>     ^

>I feel that a person should be allowed to vote for more than one newsgroup
>name, and should indicate a first, second, and third (at least) choice.  I
>managed an informal vote to name a new newsgroup in the alt hierarchy not
>too long ago, and it worked out rather well, and everyone seemed satisfied
>with the result.  If someone just votes for a single name, we have no way


Gary,

By all means, vote for a first, second, and third choice.  Many
already have done so, saying that they prefer one but would settle
for something else.

Mike


==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
Newsgroups: news.groups