Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Stop thinking? (Was: Why I am an atheist)
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 15:55:12 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:

>In article <adams.716310684@spssig>, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:

>>If God had waived the rules, that would have violated justice.  Of course,
>>now you'll ask why he didn't wave that one...the point is, that God
>>demonstrated mercy and justice, and still followed the rules.  The price
>>HAD to be paid somehow by someone.

>Why _didn't_ he waive that one?  If we say that God had no choice but to
>be just (i.e. he couldn't just be merciful)  then aren't we saying that
>God has no free will?  Aren't we saying that he is _determined_ by the laws
>of his own nature?

An explanation of this (and I don't remember which theologian came up with
it) is that God is omnipotent, but also limited. ;-)  Here's how is works:
Before God creates, He has absolute omnipotence to create exactly as he
pleases.  Once He has created, he is self-limited by the rules He has made.
In other words, once God constructs the Universe, He limits Himself to
follow the rules He Himself has established.

>If he _did_ have a choice, then he sacrificed himself to himself 
>pointlessly, and the result is that lots of his kiddies are going to Hell,
>because they don't believe this rather bizarre story.

Hmm.  God has absolute free will...but His actions follow His will,
according to the system He established.  I don't think the thing was
pointless...but I can't explain this.  Perhaps one of the theologians here
can step in and save my butt!

Of course, if you want real confusion, take Luther's comments:

   1. God wills good;
   2. God wills evil;
   3. God does not will evil

All of the above are true, we just can't understand it.  To our limited 
minds, some things appear good and others evil, but ultimately all apparant
evils are good since all that God does is good.  (Appeal to transcendence!)

No wonder, as you said, Luther finally settled on predestination, just as 
Augustine retreated to it, after staring free-will/evil from God in the
face.

[Oringinal Sin]

>I still don't understand this corporate responsibility stuff.  Is it 
>just that Adam's sin should bind everybody?   
Just as Adam's sin bound everyone, Christ's death and resurection freed
everyone.  Of course, if we take a more metaphorical understanding of
'Adam' as 'everyman', then "everyone is bound by everyman's sin", or,
better, "each man is bound by his own sin."  Paul even slips this comment
in, when he says that 'all have sinned.'  John hits it in his first letter,
where he says "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth
is not in us."  Perhaps, as I've said, a better way to look at this is to
get rid of Original Sin, and look at Genesis 3 as descriptive of our state
of being....

>It doesn't even make sense, anyway, because you said that we're sinners 
>because God needs us to be so that we'll freely turn to him.  
No, no!  I said we are *FREE* to sin so that we can freely turn to him!!
Didn't I?

>Combine this with the Fall, and the only conclusion is that the Fall was a 
>set-up! God _needed_ Adam and Eve to fall so that everybody would have 
>original sin and have to freely choose to return to Him...
No, I don't think this follows....God set up a way for everyone to come
back to Him, even if each individual sinned.

>yuck-o-rama...that would mean Satan is either working for God 
Job?

>Can you clarify all this for me?
Yeah, right...;-)  I can't even clarify it all for myself...that's why I'm
having these discussions!

>>I'm beginning to understand the appeal of fundamentalism.  And why when
>>things get tough it is SO attractive.

>Could you elaborate on this?

Sure.  The fundamentalist learns the beliefs, and learns pat answers to the
questions raised.  Thinking is NOT encouraged in the typical fundamentalist
seminary.  Take Moody Bible Institute, for example.  They have set doctrine,
and independent thought is not encouraged...one needs to follow the
teachings exactly.  Under scrutiny, it dies the death of a 1000
qualifications, but if you don't think, you have a set answer for
everything.  Nice and comfortable.  Just remove your indepenedent thought
processes.   It's 'safer' since all of the answers are given to you.

This whole series of discussions has made me really considder what I
beleive, why, and what to do about it.  It's led me in ways I never would
have gone before, and I've been thinking of new ways to see the information
presented in the Bible...but as I've saud, that undermines the basic
foundation that everything I believe in is built on...a danged tough thing
to confront.  Hiding behind dogma would be SO easy.  And then I'd sound
like Annti Sullivan...

>If one is choosing X out of fear, is that a free choice? 
No, because true free will means that there is no cause...there, you got me
to say it, ok? ;-)

>But hang on a minute...
>If one is choosing X out of _love_, is _that_ a free choice? 
Ditto.  Stubborn SOB aren't you?  Damn.

[on secret knowledge]
>The Valentinian Gnostics, I seem to recall, claimed that Paul taught 
>a "secret doctrine" as well. In Sencond Corinthians 2:16? I think (?)
>he says that he has a teaching only for those who are spiritually mature.
Paul talk about 'milk' for the young, because they are not ready for food.
Hmm...where is my copy of the Gospel of Thomas? ;-)

>>>I have actually been thinking more about this, and I think I may have
>>>another way to approach this whole free will business. Interested?
>>
>> Of course!

>Tomorrow or Monday, then. I need to sort it out a bit more. Maybe I'll
>start a new Free Will thread, only for that end of the discussion.
OK!

>"Space-age cyberheretic" :)
There you go!  That's it!

>Disclaimer: Everything I say is false.
Wait, wait!  This can't possibly be logical!  If the statement is true,
then it is incorrect!  And if it is false, it's incorrect! ;-)

  -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams   "Space-age cybernomad"     Fax:   (312) 329-3558