HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman)
Subject: Re: C++ vs. Ada -- Is Ada loosing?
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 04:01:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.161150.23301@nosc.mil> sampson@nosc.mil (Charles H. Sampson) writes:
>
>     While I can't defend Alsys's specific prices without more information,
>one justification for the high cost of a compiler for a naked machine is
>that the vendor has had to develop an entire executive (rather than tying
>into an existing DOS or UNIX) and must amortize that cost over a small
>customer base.  Basically, the high cost is for the RTE and the cross-
>compiling utilities, not for the compiler itself.
>
This seems a weak justification. I'll agree that Ada may need a more
sophisticated RTE than C, but is it 25 times more so?

And the argument about a small customer base is self-fulfilling, as we
have discussed many times in this group. Perhaps a cross to a really
weird DoD-specific board might have a small base, but a standard OTS
80x86 package?

The back cover of IEEE Computer, Dec 92, has an ad from Computer Systems
Architects (CSA). They have a Transputer board you can add into a clone.
The education price for this board is $395, and it includes a parallel
C compiler and an occam2 compiler, _for the Transputer board_. I don't
know what the commercial price is, but it's probably <$1k. CSA
mentions that Ada is available. I assume this means Alsys, the only
compay supporting this configuration. Is the Transputer RTE _that_
much hairier than the occam one? Or parallel C? 

BTW - I bought one of these CSA babies at the Computer Science Conference
last year. It's a nice piece of work.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"Americans want the fruits of patience -- and they want them now."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: uhde@ollie.jsc.nasa.gov (Jo Uhde)
Subject: Re: Language Disorders (was Re: FORTRAN, C++, whatever)
Organization: NASA/ Johnson Space Center
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 21:45:45 GMT

In article <3011.2b409374@vger.nsu.edu>, g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu (George C. Harrison, Norfolk State University) writes:
[bunch of stuff deleted]

My spouse was rather distracted at the dinner table last night after a long
day battling with C.  This morning, my spouse sent me the following e-mail:

#The answer to my C problem is: [^,-,].
#
#Long live Ada.

> > Funny thing, George. Every now and then my wife looks over my shoulder
> > when I'm reading this group, and she always chuckles at what she calls
> > "typical male pi**ing contests". She is still waiting to see a female
> > name on comp.lang.ada (she hasn't lucked into seeing one of Deborah's
> > posts).
> > 
> > Mike

Given that I am in a _legal_ (hetero) marriage and posting from my own account,
here's the puzzle:

Are my spouse's comments just part of a "typical male pi**ing contest", but
you've now seen a post on c.l.a from a female?  Or is my spouse a female
participating in a "typical male pi**ing contest", and you've yet to get
your quota of female posters to c.l.a? ;-)

Its getting pretty silly around here as the rocket scientists and space cadets
are ready to blast off into a new year.

HAPPY NEW YEAR Y'ALL

DrJo  ***   uhde@ollie.jsc.nasa.gov
-- Not much of a sig, but it _is_ my NASA nickname.
-- Please, apply all of the usual disclaimers.  I don't want to be sent
-- into orbit in the (unpressurized) cargo bay of the Orbiter.

Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: mzwick@vitro.com (Morris J. Zwick)
Subject: Re: C++ vs. Ada -- Is Ada loosing?
Organization: Vitro Corporation
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 12:56:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.181158.28683@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com
(fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>
>I think students would be best served by using something INTENDED for
>teaching, which is relatively safe and small.  That pretty much means
>Pascal.  Some schools have had good luck with LISP/SCHEME style
>languages, but I'm not sure how easy they are to deal with as first
>languages, either.
>

AMEN!!

         ___________________________________________________________________
        /  Morris J. Zwick	                 Internet: mzwick@vitro.com
__     /   Vitro Corporation	             Voice:    (301) 231-2784
  \   /    14000 Georgia Ave.                ___________________________
   \ /     Silver Spring, MD 20906-2972      |"I don't want the world; |
    *                                        | I just want your half!" |
                                             |  - They Might Be Giants |

Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: dlc@ddsdx2.jhuapl.edu (Dave Collard x7468)
Subject: Re: I/O and the LRM
Keywords: I/O NAME OPEN
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 18:20:00 GMT

In <1992Dec21.163435.22675@software.org> smithd@software.org (Doug Smith) writes:

>In article <206@hathor.CSS.GOV> jeffe@hathor.CSS.GOV (Jeff Etrick) writes:
>> 
>> 
>>  The following is taken from the LRM:
>> 
>> >>function NAME(FILE : in FILE_TYPE) return STRING;
>> 
>> >>Returns a string which uniquely identifies the external file currently
>> >>associated with the given file (and may thus be used in an OPEN
>> >>operation).  If an environment allows alternative specifications of the
>> >>name (for example, abbreviations), the string returned by the function
>> >>should correspond to a full specification of the name.
>> 
>> >>The exception STATUS_ERROR is raised if the given file is not open.
>> 
>> 
>>  I have used the function successfully many times to get the external
>> name of a currently opened file but what I don't understand is the
>> comment about it being used in an open statement. Why would I want to use
>> this statement in an open since the file must already be opened or
>> STATUS_ERROR will be raised.
>> 
>> Thanks for the help,
>> 
>> Jeff

A file can be opened more than once.

For example, to write sequential data to standard out:

  CHSEQ.Create(SysOutfile, CHSEQ.Out_File, Text_IO.Name(Text_IO.Standard_Output));

A file can be opened with shared access, at least on some systems, by
using the write FORM parameter.

--Thor
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: brandon@evb.com (Brandon)
Subject: Implementation or LRM driven
Organization: SETT Inc.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 12:42:10 GMT

I have been trying to determine any rules either in AI's, LRM or other sources
in how a compiler is permitted to allocate/deallocate return values for functions.

When the information is returned from a function some space must be allocated, 
and placed on the call stack.  In the case of a function returning a non-scalar
when MUST that space be deallocated (or can an implemenation lose it).  I've
seen many cases and can not find a specific rule.

As a second question, in this example:
	subtype MYSTR is STRING(1..50);
	function Str(X: in INTEGER) return MYSTR;

	X: BUFFER(1..200);
	X := Str(1) & Str(2) & Str(3) & Str(4);    <---- here

	During the "&" operations being called is the memory being
	used 50+50+100+50+150+50+200 = 650 allowably, unavoidable, or
	completely implementation dependent.

Any references would be appreciated

-- 
Office Automation, n.:
	The use of computers to improve efficiency by removing anyone
	you would want to talk with over coffee.

Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: del@hawk.adied.oz.au (D Elson)
Subject: GNU Ada9X progress?
Organization: Australian Defence Industries
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 07:32:27 GMT


Can someone from the group (or anyone else at NYU [?] who knows the group)
that is working on the GNU Ada 9x project please give me some information
on it?  I would like to know the target platform[s], and the expected
completion/release dates.

Also -- will there be a mechanism so that software developers can create
bindings to non-Ada language products using GNU Ada9X?

Sorry if this is a FAQ, I've been off the net for a while.

Del
From: mvensky@NOSVE.ELAN.AF.MIL
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: (none)
Date: 30 Dec 92 23:25:49 GMT
Organization: The Internet

I am having a tiny problem with Ada's SEQUENTIAL_IO. I am currently writing
a utility to process sequential tapes written by FORTRAN 77 routines. The record
formats are very well described. However they are heterogeneous, that is they
consist of one hollerith character, followed by an integer, followed by several
more hollerith characters and terminated by a vector of reals, aka floats in Ada
. How do I use Ada's strong typing to describe abstract data objects while
reading in this file. If I read the data in using say a word-aligned vector of
floats, I can do some unchecked conversion. This will work but does not seem to
be very clean or elegant. Other possible declarations might cause the dreaded
"DATA_ERROR" exception to be raised.

These records were originally written as unformatted FORTRAN writes. They will
read, fortunately perhaps, by Ada written for the same machine (a Cyber).

I would truely appreciate any insight into how to solve this.

                                       Michael J. Vensky
                                       Edwards Air Force Base
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: dsamson@vx9000.weber.edu (D. Samson)
Subject: Re: Ada as a First Language
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords:  Ada, Information Systems
Organization: Weber State University
Date: 29 Dec 1992 08:40 MST  


Iam interested in Ada as an information systems language to be taught
in a college of business and economics.  I teach at Weber State Univ.
in Ogden, Utah, where we have a large government and contractor community
which hires our graduates.  It could be advantageous for our graduates
to know Ada, and so I am exploring the availability of business-oriented
Ada textbooks.  If you know of any, or can refer me to any schools where
Ada is taught from an IS perspective, I'd appreciate your help.

Dolly Samson
Weber State University
Ogden, UT 84408-3804
dsamson@cc.weber.edu 
-----------------------------------------------------
From: eyring@cc.utah.edu
Subject: Re: X-Windows Bindings?
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Date: 2 Jan 93 07:23:55 MDT

This info is from the FAQ in comp.windows.x
 
Subject: 135)! Where can I obtain alternate language bindings to X?
 
..(Non Ada binding info deleted)...
 
        The SAIC Ada-X11 bindings are through anonymous ftp in /pub from
stars.rosslyn.unisys.com (128.126.164.2).
 
        There is an X/Ada study team sponsored by NASA JSC, which apparently is
working out bindings. Information: xada@ghg.hou.tx.us.
 
        Ada bindings to Motif, explicitly, will eventually be made available by
the Jet Propulsion Laboratories, probably through the normal electronic
means.  Advance information can be obtained from dsouleles@dsfvax.jpl.nasa.gov,
who may respond as time permits.
 
        AdaMotif is a complete binding to X and Motif for the Ada language, for
many common systems; it is based in part upon the SAIC/Unisys bindings and also
includes a UIL to Ada translator. Info: Systems Engineering Research
Corporation, 1-800-Ada-SERC (well!serc@apple.com).
 
        Also: the MIT Consortium, although not involved in producing Ada
bindings for X, maintains a partial listing of people involved in X and Ada;
information is available from Donna Converse, converse@expo.lcs.mit.edu.
 
(end of FAQ)
 
I also know that Verdix has XView and Motif Ada bindings.  They
have an Ada version of gxv so you can use DevGuide.
 
Telesoft has Ada bindings also.
 
I've seen Rational (?I think) Ada bindings to X in the contrib area for X11R5.

-- 
>Bob Witmer
>Eyring Corp., Flight Simulation Div.
>Salt Lake City, Utah
>eyring@cc.utah.edu
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman)
Subject: Re: Enum's start at 0?
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 03:38:42 GMT

In article <238@trident.datasys.swri.edu> tim@trident.datasys.swri.edu (Timothy J. Barton) writes:
>Just curious, but is there a reason enumerated type's POS values
>start at 0 instead of 1?
>
Just like everything else in computing. ASCII characters, for example,
run from 0 to 127, not 128. You can represent 0..127 using one less bit than
1..128.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"Americans want the fruits of patience -- and they want them now."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mbayern@mlb.win.net (Mark Bayern)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Ada pricing.  Too high!
Date: 29 Dec 92 08:03:26 GMT
Reply-To: mbayern@mlb.win.net (Mark Bayern)
Organization: The Internet
X-Unparsable-Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 9:3.9.38

In article <1992.Dec23.221817.28758@seas.gwu.edu> Michael Feldman
is surprised at the Ada prices I've quoted saying:

>> Huh? I'm curious. Whose 80x86 target compiler is $25,000?  RR,
>>AETech, Meridian and Alsys' DOS extended-mode compilers are all in
>>the $1k-2K range, commercial prices (maybe less).  Who else is
>>there? 

Who else is there?  I don't know -- however Alsys's DOS hosted
80x86 cross compiler is $25,000 (with a required $5,000) first year
support.  These prices are from last week, from both Mr JD Young
of Alsys and Scott Dorman.

>> If this post's information is correct, we are all in BIG
>> trouble.  If not, this is a great example of the lousy job we
>> are doing in the Ada community in getting the facts out into the 
>> street, guys.

I believe the information I've posted is correct -- if you can show
me I'm wrong, I'll gladly accept the correction <grin>.  The Ada
community is in trouble, but its not only over price issues.  I've
chosen to use Ada in a three commercial projects -- in each of the
three projects, I've been appalled at the poor quality of some
aspect of the suppliers package.  (Note it was NOT an Alsys Ada
system, Alsys's problem only problem (so far) is the price). 

Mark Bayern

Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: stt@spock.camb.inmet.com (Tucker Taft)
Subject: Re: Implementation or LRM driven
Organization: Intermetrics Inc, Cambridge MA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:47:42 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.124210.7098@evb.com> brandon@evb.com (Brandon) writes:

>I have been trying to determine any rules either in AI's, LRM or other sources
>in how a compiler is permitted to 
>allocate/deallocate return values for functions.
>
>When the information is returned from a function some space must be allocated, 
>and placed on the call stack.  In the 
>case of a function returning a non-scalar
>when MUST that space be deallocated (or can an implemenation lose it).  I've
>seen many cases and can not find a specific rule.

As in essentially all programming languages, the management of stack
space and other storage used for local variables and other temporaries
is entirely implementation dependent.  There are no rules
the the Ada 83 RM that require any particular strategy for management
of this storage space.  

For Ada 9x, there will be a Systems and Real-Time Programming Annexes 
where we intend to get somewhat more concrete about implementation 
requirements in this and other areas.  In particular, there will be
a requirement to document where "heap" storage is allocated implicitly
(as opposed to explicitly via a "new").

>As a second question, in this example:
>	subtype MYSTR is STRING(1..50);
>	function Str(X: in INTEGER) return MYSTR;
>
>	X: BUFFER(1..200);
>	X := Str(1) & Str(2) & Str(3) & Str(4);    <---- here
>
>	During the "&" operations being called is the memory being
>	used 50+50+100+50+150+50+200 = 650 allowably, unavoidable, or
>	completely implementation dependent.

Again, there are no requirements on the management of storage
for temporaries.  For dynamic-sized temporaries, some Ada compilers 
use the heap, some use a "secondary" mark/release stack, and some use 
the equivalent of C's "alloca" which extends the "primary" stack.
Some reclaim this storage at the end of the statement, some at
the end of the block, some at the end of the subprogram, and some
have bugs and lose track of some of it under certain circumstances.

>Any references would be appreciated

Stay tuned for Ada 9X.  Nothing much exists on Ada 83.

>Office Automation, n.:
>	The use of computers to improve efficiency by removing anyone
>	you would want to talk with over coffee.

S. Tucker Taft    stt@inmet.com
Ada 9X Mapping/Revision Team
Intermetrics, Inc.
Cambridge,  MA  02138
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net (Orville R. Weyrich)
Subject: Re: Ada Readability, Book Reference
Reply-To: uunet.uu.net!weyrich!orville
Organization: Weyrich Computer Consulting
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 15:28:31 GMT

In article <9212281507.AA20416@ajpo.sei.cmu.edu> SAHARBAUGH@ROO.FIT.EDU writes:
>
>So I ask "Is Ada readable if you can express an indeterminate
>program using it?".
>
>sam harbaugh
>---

I am not sure whether there is a relationship between indeterminancy and
readability.

Suppose, for example, the indeterminancy arises because of a concession made
to the implementors by way of not completely defining the effect of certain
language constructs [i.e. "implementation-defined"]. Suppose then I were to
arbitrarily define these aspects [very arbitrarily -- I'm being a devil's
advocate here] to depend on the number of comments in the compilation unit.

I have eliminated the indeterminancy, but certainly have not enhanced the
readability.

Or suppose, for another example, the indeterminancy arises because of a 
race condition that is outside the scope of control of the compiler and
run-time system. The indeterminancy could perhaps be resolved by introducing
semophores or some similar construct, but that would further complicate the
program text.

In my opinion, one of the best measure of readability is how well 
the semantics of a fragment of code can be determined in isolation from 
the context of the entire program. Another measure of readability is what
I might call "stability" -- minor changes in the code should result in
minor changes in semantics, not major changes. In other words, if a
reader has a small misunderstanding of what he/she read, and that leads
to a small misunderstanding of what the code does, the code is stable.

Happy new year to all.


orville

--------------------------------------           ******************************
Orville R. Weyrich, Jr.                           Weyrich Computer Consulting
Certified Data Processor                         POB 5782, Scottsdale, AZ 85261
Certified Systems Professional                        Voice: (602) 391-0821
Internet: orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net                Fax:   (602) 661-0660
--------------------------------------           ******************************

Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: yow@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Bill Yow)
Subject: Stars FTP Site is it closed?
Keywords: Stars FTP Ada
Organization: MDSSC
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:37:45 GMT

Has the stars.rosslyn.unisys.com (128.126.164.2) FTP site closed?

I tried to connect to stars.rosslyn.unisys.com and it is now an unknown host.
I then tried 128.126.164.2 I was connected.  But then received the following 
message:

421 Service not available, remote server has closed connection

So if the Stars site has closed is there any other site with that info?

Thanks

						Later,
						Bill Yow
						(713) 283-4051
						yow@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
						byow@mcimail.com

My opinions are my own!
Are you Born Again?			



Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: louay@turing.toronto.edu (Louay Gammo)
Subject: Question: LALR(1) yacc grammar for Ada
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: 22 Dec 92 23:01:04 GMT


	I am sure this is a FAQ, but I can't find the FAQ! :(
	Where can I find an LALR(1) yacc grammar for Ada? I have
	one already but it has been worked on by so many people
	over so many years, so I want a fresh copy to use.


	thanks

	louay
-- 
--
louay@rosebud.turing.toronto.edu	|	meow
--
From: emery@dr_no.mitre.org (David Emery)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: POSIX Ada bindings (where can I get them)
Date: 28 Dec 92 15:37:11 GMT
Organization: The Mitre Corporation, Bedford, MA

The IEEE approved Standard 1003.5 in June, and we've been going
through a pre-publication cleanup.  The document is at the printer,
and you can order a copy from IEEE.  In fact, it should be back from
the printer this week and shipp.ing

It is "IEEE Standard 1003.5:1992", and it costs $67.50 (nonmembers,
IEEE members $47.75). Call the IEEE Order Desk at (800) 678 IEEE 
(+1 800 678 4333).

Per IEEE policy, the document is not available via FTP; you have to
buy a copy from the IEEE.  We are trying to convince the IEEE that it
is appropriate for them to make the package specifications available
via FTP.  Please send email to M.Phillips@ieee.org if you would like
to see this happen.

I think this should be added to the comp.lang.ada FAQ list.

There were a lot of changes from Draft 7 to Draft 8 as a result of the
ballot.  The publication version would be known as "Draft 10".  There
were only editorial changes after Draft 8.

				dave
				(P1003.5 Technical Editor)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: johnj@runx.oz.au (John Jameson)
Subject: JANUS compiler
Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare.  Sydney, Australia.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 05:31:13 GMT


I have a number of Windows 3.X display primitives written in C++
and wish to access them from an Ada application. My thoughts are
to package the primitives as a DLL and use an Ada compiler which
has good bindings to the Windows APIs. A colleague has recommended
the JANUS Ada compiler - if anyone has used this compiler and can
report on the general quality of the product and specifically the
Windows API integration I would be very grateful to hear from them.

Thanks, John Jameson.

-- 
JOHN JAMESON                           Computer Sciences of Australia
Internet:   johnj@runx.oz.au           Systems Engineering Division 
CompuServe: 100023,232@compuserve.com  460 Pacific Hwy
Phone:      +61 2 901.1494             St Leonards  NSW  2065
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: dtl8v@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Heracleitus)
Subject: Trying to fix Ada LRM for PC?
Originator: dtl8v@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 19:01:33 GMT

  Has anyone fixed the Ada LRM that is found in the simtel archives
(and oak and wuarchive)?  I retrieved the LRM program for the PC from
various sources, and all behaved the same.  I am running ANSI.SYS on
my PC, and the LRM.EXE file, but every search for a specific section
number, e.g., 13.1.4, finds something else, like 13.9.8 or so.
Obviously, the searching algorithm is off, and I'd like to know if
there's a fix, or if I'm the only one having this problem.  I'd also
like to know the address of the program author at Norfolk State
University if there is no current fix for the problem.

Doug Lamb
University of Virginia
dtl8v@Virginia.EDU
From: yow@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Bill Yow)
Subject: DIANA Standard
Keywords: DIANA FTP Ada
Organization: MDSSC
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 22:46:51 GMT

Does anyone know of an FTP Site where a version of the "DIANA REFERENCE MANUAL"
is?  I would like the version that was worked on in 1986.

Thanks

						Later,
						Bill Yow
						(713) 283-4051
						yow@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
						byow@mcimail.com

My opinions are my own!