From: gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga)
Subject: Re: In respect of Suzanne 
Summary: Gordon and Suzanne exchange words and little else - what's new?
Organization: Gizmonic Institute - Home of the "Big G Burger"
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 07:14:09 GMT

<1993Jan7.232142.6990@noao.edu> forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>From article by gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga):
>> <1993Jan6.233209.3096@noao.edu> forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>>><1992Dec30.003444.7408@netcom.com>, by gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga):
>>>> <1992Dec22.182521.8808@noao.edu> forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
[fear of babies]
>>>> I have to admit that I don't like being around kids in general.  I refuse
>>>> to babysit for anyone unless I have full corporal authority.  
>>>
>>>What does "full corporal authority" mean?   A whack on the behind?
>>>Several whacks?  A fat lip?  A black eye?  Broken legs?  Cigarette burns?
>>>Capital punishment?
>> 
>> Basically it means be authorized to use physical force to insure proper
>> behavior - spankings and slapped hands.  
>
>Well, let me be the first to burst your bubble and inform you that even
>physical force will not insure proper bahavior in some, even many, kids.

It's worth a try.  This "time-out" shit only works about 20% of the time,
near as I can tell from observation.

>> I find your characterization of
>> me as a child-beater to be extremely rude and uncalled for.
>
>Gordon, Gordon.  I was not charactarizing you as a child-beater. 
>I was demonstrating how vague your choice of wording was.

OK.

...
>>>> So far no
>>>> one's taken me up on it. ;-)  
>>>
>>>I'm not surprised!  Perhaps you should explain yourself more clearely.
>> 
>> You missed the idea.
>
>No.  I just wanted to show you how you might be unwittingly portraying 
>yourself to your parent friends.

My "parent friends" know how I feel about children.  They don't take it
personal because I feel that way about all children.  I don't hate
children - I just prefer to spend as little time around them as possible.
 
>>>> Most children are smelly, 
>>>
>>>All those diapers just like you once needed yourself, Gordon, which somebody
>>>else changed for you.
>> 
>> It doesn't make them any less smelly.
>
>Well, it certainly makes them more deserving of being uncomplainingly changed.

No it doesn't.

>And just another plug - the smell of the diapers of breastfed babies is far
>less offensive than the smell of the diapers of formula fed babies.

And the smell of *no* diapers is much less offensive, isn't it.

>>> noisy 
>>>
>>>All that laughing, crying, yelling, singing, gleeful squeals, general life
>>>stuff.  (Disgusting, ain't it.)
>> 
>> It can be very stressful.
>
>Yeah, life is stressful.  That's why they call death "eternal rest".
>Yet the only alternative to life is death, as pro-"choicers" so aptly
>tell us every day.

So why should I subject myself to more stress?

>>>> and messy.
>>>
>>>All those wet kisses, tears when you hurt their feelings, noses they
>>>haven't quite got the hang of blowing yet, mud pie gifts they try to
>>>make you eat, and bubble baths that somehow soak the whole bathroom.
>>>The sweetness life is made of.
>> 
>> I can understand the kisses, to a point (kids will put *anything* in their
>> mouths - I don't really want to deal with that).  But how can you possibly
>> find "sweet[ness]" in blowing someone else's nose for them, 
>
>The joy is in helping someone too weak to help themselves.

I can do that without having to have a kid.

>> or eating mud,
>
>I don't eat the mud, but I do thank them profusely for their thoughtful
>gift.   I pretend to drink the soapy bathwater in the teacup, and enjoy the
>company thoroughly.  I _have_ eaten pre-chewed grapes and said thank you too.

Yech.

>> or having to have your hardwood floor replaced because junior misbehaved?
>
>Not knowing any better is __not__ "misbehaving".   

That's why you use discipline - then the kid *does* know better.

>                                                   And we have tile, so we
>just towel it up.

Convenient.

>>>> Not unlike a lot of my friends in general, but at least I can tell them to
>>>> go home.
>>>
>>>You and your wife are missing out on quite alot by having aborted your
>>>child, Gordon.
>> 
>> What are my wife and I missing out on because my ex-wife and I got an
>> abortion 9 years ago?  
>
>Excuse me, but in your reference to your abortion a month or so ago, you said
>"wife" not "ex-wife", and you did not date the event.   I had no idea you were
>on your second go-round.

Well, let's get it straight:  My first wife and I did get an abortion.  My
current wife had an abortion previous to our meeting.  Neither of these
abortions effected my relationship with either woman.

>> I mean, exactly what are we missing?  
>
>The life and love of that child.

What child?

>> We love
>> each other - We spend *HUGE* amounts of time together (and it's never
>> enough) - We go places - Buy gifts for each other 
>
>None of which you'd have to lose if you'd had your child.

Bet me.  I don't live in some bubble in Alaska you know.  I have many
many friends and family members with little kids 2 to 4 years old.
I've seen what they had to give up and I'm not willing to do that.

>> (it's amazing how
>> much money you have left over when you are not trying to over-populate
>> the earth), 
>
>Gordon, you and your wife couldn't over-populate the earth if you tried.

Very good, you remembered that I've had a vasectomy. ;-)

>> and generally are having the times of our lives with no
>> regrets.
>
>Sure.  This is a different wife.  What has she to regret?    (I wonder if
>without the abortion you'd still be with your first wife...)

You can wonder if it makes you feel better.  But having a child or having
an abortion does not make a bad relationship better.  My first wife and I
separated because we were just too different.  She still doesn't want
children.  Believe me, she would not have made a good mother anyway.  And
as you can see, having an abortion made no difference to me.
 
>> You're not claiming to be able to read my mind again, are you?  Or did you
>> somehow earn a degree in psychology when I wasn't looking?
>
>Gordon, all I did was state that you are missing quite alot by having aborted
>your child.   I am doing nothing but speaking from experience.

And, speaking from the experiences I have had, and knowing myself far
better than you know me, I know I am missing nothing by having not become
a parent.  You know, I could say that you are missing quite a lot by not
owning a pet, or by not having sex with two or three of your closest
friends, or by not going to tractor pulls.  You are the best judge of what
you might be missing, and I think I can predict that there is at least one
item I listed about which you would swear you are missing nothing.  Am I
right?


Gordon
-- 
The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.