HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Text of S. 2913 (Chafee handgun confiscation)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:58:42 GMT

Several interesting clauses in this bill, which might be worth 
noting (even if no one supports it, and it isn't going to pass...):

It allows for private handgun ownership by members of "licensed
handgun clubs" (though the weapons mut stored at the club.) However,
there are conditions on licensed clubs:

1              "(3) no member of the handgun club has will-
2         fully violated this chapter or any regulations
3         under this chapter;

So if any member of the club were to keep a pistol at home, the
club would loose its license and _all_ members would be bared
from owning handguns. Given even a few dozen members, I suspect
_someone_ in almost every shooting club would do this, so very
quickly, the number of licensed handgun clubs would drop to near 
zero.

1                   "(D) meets all operational, safety, security,
2              training, and other requirements that the Sec-
3              retary may prescribe by regulation.

There is no real limit on what "other regulations" may be imposed.
Since unreasonable regulations could be established, this puts
the existance of the "licensed handgun clubs" entirely at the
discression of the Secretary of (Interior or Justice?)

                                                Frank Crary
                                                CU Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Couldn't believe my ears...
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:58:35 GMT

	About 2 weeks ago I discovered this radio station at 101.5 in New
	Jersey (sorry, don't recall the call letters).  I could not believe
	what these folks were saying.  They were absolutely RIPPING George
	Bush and Clinton to shreds, calling them both cynical scumbags etc.
	and so on.  I was absolutely amazed.  But what surprised me even
	further was the fact that yesterday and today I heard *60 SECOND*
	spots for the NRA!!!  One voice claimed to be a NJ cop saying that
	the assault rifle ban had him and his brethren in blue wasting their
	time with honest gun owners rather than chasing out the real crooks.
	The other from a claimed Bronze star recipient from Desert Storm
	who had been arrested in NJ for posession of a semi auto sporting
	rifle that a local DA had decided was an "assault" rifle.

	The folks at this station are VERY political and they have an 800
	number you can call at certain times of the day (most times, in fact)
	and they take calls from listeners on various topics about life in NJ.
	At 6:00 PM they have their "Hour of Rage(tm)" where persons can call up
	and rant about the things they hate most about life in NJ.  These
	guys apparently not only talk the talk, but walk the walk as well.  I
	intend on listening to them from this point on and I will let them
	know in no uncertain terms that I think what they are doing is 
	absolutely great.  If you are anywhere near NJ I would suggest you 
	check them out.  It's interesting stuff and it seems they must have a
	bazillion watt transmitter because I recieve them loud and clear from 
	NYC to Bridgeton, 130 miles away.  These guys are really very cool and
	are NOT in any way PC.  Indeed they seem to go out of their way to
	show folks where the PC mind is flawed and they do so quite strongly.

	We need more media like this, folks who have broad coverage and are
	willing to challenge the bullshit networks that rant and spew their
	nonsense by the ton.  Well done and worth listening to, and believe you
	me I never thought I'd hear myself typing this.

	Maybe there is some hope after all.


	-Andy V.
From: simnet@ssc-vax.boeing.com (Mark R Poulson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Denver Police Kill Another Un-Armed Person, Today!
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:19:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Boeing Defense and Space Group, Seattle WA

In article <1992Sep1.190627.14492@stortek.com> vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak) writes:
>The "suspect" was declared dead at the scene.  He was NOT ARMED
>in any manner, though the talking heads were pointing out that
>"he did have a shirt in his hand which the police officer might
>have mistook for a weapon". [Sure, I have plenty of shirts that
>look like Glock 19s].  

My brother in law is an FBI agent and is required to have his gun handy
at all times. Its funny how he seems to always have a wadded up jacket
in his hands where ever he goes! Perhaps the cop was thinking a gun was
hidden in the shirt. There is NO excuse for shooting him without seeing
an actual gun in the suspect's hands though. Maybe he just gambled hoping
that he would indeed find a gun hidden in that shirt after he wasted him
and have a justifiable shooting. Looks like both these guys lost.

		Mark
From: betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz)
Subject: Re: Seattle Buy-Back Update
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club 
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:06:08 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.021926.17120@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>>>>Also, there was a woman who turned in her son's (in his late 20s, not a kid)
>>>>$1700 rifle, because she didn't approve of the hobby.

I'm not one subjected to the whim of the People's Republic of
California, but I would guess that "explaining the situation"
to the cops would have no effect.  However, this guy should
be able to swear out a complaint of theft (I know, its his
own mother and all, but), and sue his mother in civil court
to recover the cost of the rifle. 

Drew 
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
From: dennis@bluemoon.rn.com (Dennis Carney)
Subject: PROponent -- Article "AND LATER THE FATE OF TO-MORROW..."
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 01:25:54 EDT

AND LATER THE FATE OF TO-MORROW...

"Painful is the task I do which to you I know
       must be grievous.
Yet must I bow and obey, and deliver the will
       of our monarch.
Namely, that all your lands, and dwellings, and
       cattle of all kinds
Forfeited be to the crown; and that you
       yourselves from this province
Be transported to other lands.  God grant you
       may dwell there
Ever as faithful subjects, a happy and
       peaceable people!
Prisoners now I declare you; for such is his
       Majesty's pleasure!"

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1807-1882), from his poem "Evangeline"
about the British destruction of the French Acadian settlement at
Grand-Pre. (the above quotes suggested by a letter in the August
1992 American Rifleman by Bob Simpson, CA)

* The more things change, the more they stay the same!
_____________________________________________________________

...

This is from:
    dennis@bluemoon.rn.com
---- The Soviet Union Died, But the Communists Live On ----
From: chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman)
Subject: Re: democratic platform
Organization: City of Saint Paul Public Works
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:43:43 GMT

kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:

[--clueless drivel about 'well-ordered militia' delete--]

Oh, Mr. Darcy, aka PerpetualWhinerAboutInappropriatePosts
InTalk.Abortion, shouldn't you take your own advice and
keep this in t.p.g?

-- 
Chris Lyman  /  email: chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov  /  #include <std.disclaimers.h>
    Not those mamby pamby wimp liberal "oh dear someone somewhere
    has done something unnice, I'll call the kare bears..." -- drieux
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Innis' "Racist Soil"
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:55:00 GMT

Well, I like Roy Innis quite a lot.  He is intelligent, articulate and seems
to have a clear understanding of the major problems facing Black Americans.
I also feel he has clear insight of the true nature of racism in the Guv.
And best of all, he articulates himself intelligently, unlike persons like the
painfully eternal Al Sharpton who has done more to damage the cause of Black
Americans in the last 10 years than any other single person I can think of
(though to be fair to Mr. Sharpton I will admit that the last time I saw him
on TV, he spoke calmly and intelligently, which nearly gave me cause to fall
out of my seat).

Mr. Innis recognizes that gun control == nigger control and that without the
ability to properly defend themselves from the forces that would have them
living in trees, on welfare, or better yet, 6 feet under, that the going will
continue to be quite tough for many otherwise honest and proper Black persons.

I especially respect his position on the second amendment knowing thath is son
was shot and killed many years ago.   He could have made quite a cozy living
for himself had he chosen to join the anti gun filth and rant for the abolition
of the common citizen's right to bear arms.  But it seems his spoken concern
for his folks is indeed genuine.  

I also note that in contrast to that little weasel scum bag Spike "I'm trapped
in the ghetto and I can't get out" Lee, he does not advocate violence, 
particularly the killing of White people (which Lee has done on several
occaisions and in no uncertain terms).

	-Andy V.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Morris the Cat)
Subject: Re: JDs (was Re: Clinton in _Rolling Stone_ ...)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:38:44 GMT


In <1992Sep14.025543.21207@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> bill nelson states:

|I don't know how long a person could sustain rapid fire with a semi-
|automatic, I have never tried for more than a few rounds. 

A couple of months after John Garand showed up on the cover of American
Rifleman back in 1973-1974, a small inset article of a paragraph or so
appeared in Rifleman. It was an American soldier thanking John Garand
for the robust weapon he designed. You see, the soldier was in the
Korean War, and during an attack by many 'rapid fire targets,' he and
his buddies fired and fired their M1s. The heating of the wood by the
thermal radiation caused the forward portion of the handguard to
come off in his hands, and the bores looked like ".40," but the weapon
continued functioning. He said they just junked the Garands after
that particular firefight. The M1 Garand - a true "Battle Rifle."
Newsgroups: 2,3,talk.politics.guns,fido.rtkba
From: dennis@bluemoon.rn.com (Dennis Carney)
Subject: PROponent -- Article "DEER RIFLES - GANG'S GUN OF CHOICE"
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 01:21:12 EDT

DEER RIFLES - GANG'S GUN OF CHOICE...

       A recent article from the Chigago Tribune that was reprinted
in the July 26, Columbus Dispatch tends to confirm the worst
predictions that "sniper rifles" will be the next target of
gun-grabbers.  The piece talks about gang members who sit in empty
high-rise buildings in a public housing complex sniping at
passers-by which includes police cars.  It compares the project to
war-torn Sarajevo.  The death toll includes a 15-year-old girl,
another 19, a boy 9 and a man 22 and perhaps a "half dozen" more.
Police say the shootings are related to protecting the gang's drug
business through intimidating the residents.
       One building in particular the newspaper says is called
"snipe tower" (shades of "Uzi Alley") and the newspaper account as
per usual stresses the importance of living in total fear while at
the same time doing nothing about the problem.  The problem,
naturally, is not gangmembers but guns. "They have Uzis, deer
rifles, and Tech-9's. They just sit up there and spray."  There it
is, military-style pistols and "deer rifles" all lumped together as
gang "weapons of choice".  All I have to say is how much more do
you hunters need to hear to figure out they want ALL GUNS and that
includes your hunting guns.

...

This is from:
    dennis@bluemoon.rn.com
---- The Soviet Union Died, But the Communists Live On ----
Newsgroups: 2,3,talk.politics.guns,fido.rtkba
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Civil immunity states (was Re: Hand-loads for defens)
Date: 6 Sep 92 01:58:33 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

follow-ups set to talk.politics.guns only

##I'd also be interested in:
##    Are you required to try to run away before shooting?

#Such a requirement would likely be ruled illegally discriminatory
#under the recently-enacted ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act).

#W. K. Gorman

I don't think so, the key word being "try": A statute like that
(and I _think_ there are some in California) would require you to do
everything you could to avoid the situation. Since someone in a
weelchair clearly cannot run away, I'd think the law would automatically
exempt them, rather than discriminate against them.

                                               Frank Crary
                                               CU Boulder

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: sglanger@vela.acs.oakland.edu (LANGER STEVEN C)
Subject: A BASIC QUESTION
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 18:01:10 GMT

  I'm a recent reader of this group and have passively watched it
for a few weeks. I feel that a basic question has been overshadowed
by the details of various recent postings. We've been talking about
the details of "assault weapon" bans and such, but this is really missing
the whole point. The second doesn't say;

"... the right to keep and bear arms (except for assault weapons, hand-
guns, etc.)"

Look, if the ProChoice crowd can find a constitutional underpinning for
their position somewhere in the 5'th, 9'th and 14'th ammendments why
should we find it so difficult to defend our rights when they are
spelled out in explicit detail.

The current attempt to repeal the 2'nd not withstanding, what needs
to be done is challenge one of these bans at the Supreme Court
level. Force the gov. and the media to face the question head on 
instead of nibbling at the edges.

My dictionary says;

Infringe == to encroach or tresspass.

I think the Supreme Court would have to agree that banning any type
of gun constitutes an encroachment on our right to keep and bear arms.

Am I being hopelessly naiive? What are others thoughts on this?

Steve Langer
There are two types of people in the world. Those who think there
are two kinds of people, and those who don't.
.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,sci.med
From: Kevin Langston <langston@convex.COM>
Subject: M.D. Gun Advocates
Followup-To: talk.politics.gun 
Originator: langston@eugene.convex.com
Reply-To: langston@convex.COM (Kevin Langston)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Technical Operations
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:51:29 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


Forwarded Message:

        DOCTORS FOR INTEGRITY IN RESEARCH & PUBLIC POLICY
 
                Edgar A. Suter, MD., Chairman
                5201 Norris Canyon Road, Suite 140
                San Ramon, CA 94583
 
                Tel. 510-277-0333
                FAX  510-277-1283
 
Dear Colleague,
 
We are familiar with:
        * the AMA's position on limiting gun rights
        * the increasing publication of "politically correct" gun
        research that is methodologically flawed and, so reaches suspect
        interpretations
        * the editorial policies of many medical journals that have
        stifled the confounding data and opinions that dissent from the
        "politically correct" orthodoxy on gun prohibition, and
        * the increasing use of taxpayers money to fund politically
        motivated "research," especially by the Centers for Disease
        Control (CDC).
 
The erroneous perception that all physicians are opposed to even the
safe and responsible ownership and use of guns by law-abiding,
mentally-competent adults has been very damaging to our gun rights.
That misperception has helped advance the legislative agenda of gun
prohibitionists to "remove guns from the home."
 
It is time we organized to:
        * expose the flaws in methodology and interpretation,
        * expose the editorial bias,
        * oppose the funding of polemics masquerading as research, and
        * present the self-protective and other benefits of our
        constitutionally protected right.
 
You are invited to join with me in this formidable challenge.  I would
like to form a network to share information and to coordinate our
efforts.  I would expect to use computers, fax machines, the mail, and
personal testimony to make our case heard in Congress and state
legislatures, not just in the editorial office of the self-appointed
illuminati.
 
I hope to hear from you regarding your interests and suggestions.
 
Best regards,
Edgar A. Suter, MD


-- 
--  Kevin Langston           Convex Computer Corporation, Technical Operations
--  langston@convex.com  --  langston@frontier.lonestar.org
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the security of a free state,
 the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed." JNS


-- 
--  Kevin Langston           Convex Computer Corporation, Technical Operations
--  langston@convex.com  --  langston@frontier.lonestar.org
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the security of a free state,
 the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed." JNS
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Black Powder (Was: So Much for Iowa.... (Was: Black Market guns)
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:02:53 GMT
	<1992Sep4.192220.15829@unislc.uucp>
Distribution: usa
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

<In article <1992Sep4.192220.15829@unislc.uucp> jdw@unislc.uucp (James Warren) writes:
<   From article <ATAYLOR.92Sep2163740@gauss.nmsu.edu>, by ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy):
<   > In article <viking.715410352@vincent2.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
<   > 
<   > 	Probably. However, I failed to point out that BATF still
<   > 	has a requirement for dealers to record name/address/
<   > 	drivers license number for all sales of black powder,
<   > 	presumably as a result of the reclassification of
<   > 	black powder from "powder" to "explosive".
<   > 
<   > 	I know, I just bought some last month. It was a surprise
<   > 	to me, as I hadn't given ID for a powder sale in years.

<
<   I bought some BP about two months ago.  There was no request for me to
<   fill out any forms.  I handed them $8 and they handed me a can of powder
<   and some change.

	There was no request for me to fill out forms either,
	but there was a request for ID. Either the dealer I
	purchased from was being overcautious (not a bad idea
	when dealing with BATF) or the dealer you purchased from
	is courting disaster.

	Question: are you certain it was black powder, NOT
	Pyrodex? Pyrodex is a common load in black powder
	firearms nowadays but ATF classifies it as "smokeless
	powder", not black powder (and thus not an explosive).

	Pyrodex, like any other smokeless powder, has no
	recording requirements since 1986.

	
From: deanp@hplsla.hp.com (Dean Payne)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:41:00 GMT
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendment Myths
Organization: HP Lake Stevens, WA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns

>From: pswanson@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Paul Swanson)

>If I were writing the Bill of Rights now, there wouldn't be any such
>thing as the Second Amendment ... This has been subject to one of the
>greatest pieces of fraud - I repeat the word fraud - on the American
>public by special-interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.
>
>                                 - Former Chief Justice Warren Burger
>
>Here is someone who probably has a good idea about constitutional law
>who apparently thinks the RKBA is a misinterpretation of the Second
>Amendment.


I responded to a similar post in an internal company group: 

<Earlier, another poster pointed out that former Supreme Court Chief
<Justice Warren Burger does not accept the "individual rights" view of
<the Second Amendment.  I should add that his opinion is contrary to those
<expressed by his predecessor, Earl Warren, and his successor, William
<Rehnquist.  Even Justice Douglas, who expressed a personal opinion
<favoring a handgun ban, admitted that it would involve watering down the
<Second Amendment.
<
<I wonder how Burger views the 43 state equivalents to the Second
<Amendment.  My state's provision is representative of many of them.  It
<would require severe Orwellian doublespeak to make this support only a
<collective right:
<
<    'The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of
<     himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this
<     section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or
<     corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of
<     men.'
<
<     Article I, Section 24, Constitution of the State of Washington.
<     Ratified by the people of the Territory of Washington, Oct. 1, 1889.


<          The Second Amendment protects "the right of 
<          the people to keep and bear Arms,"...
<
<           -- Chief Justice Rehnquist, writing the 
<              majority decision in the Fourth Amendment case of 
<              U.S. vs Verdugo-Urquidez, 2/28/1990.
From: bressler@iftccu.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Ruger softening his position?
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:48:25 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group

I'm wondering if Bill Ruger is softening his position on gun control.  I
recently happened to see a copy of his 1992 police catalog.  He had a two
page preface in which he:

1) Firmly embraced the NRA 'punish the criminals' stance.

2) He made the statement that 'Guns do not cause crime.'

3) Made the statement that he thought large capacity magazines were not
an issue in crime control.

4) Stated that he firmly supported the Second Amendment and the right of
all law abiding citizens to bear arms.

5) Quoted one of the surveys of line police officers that supported all
of these positions.

There was more, but in general it was very contradictory to some of his
past positions.

Actions speak louder than words, but I wonder, is he really getting the
message, or is this just advertising?  It might be worth keeping a
slightly less prejudiced eye on him in the future until we can tell for
sure.  Maybe he has reformed.
From: db@matilda.vut.edu.au (David Bowman )
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Seattle Buy-Back Update
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:57:27 GMT
Organization: Victoria University of Technology

In article <92Sep8.173155edt.47951@neat.cs.toronto.edu> quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.161344.29470@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>
>>>Also, there was a woman who turned in her son's (in his late 20s, not a kid)
>>>$1700 rifle, because she didn't approve of the hobby.
>
>So did he get his gun back? He could sue these people for possession
>of stolen property or accessory to theft!

The woman was right. Don't be so silly! 
-- 
" And so they took Ned Kelly and hanged him in the jail,
  For he fought singlehanded although in iron mail.
  And no man singlehanded can hope to break the bars;
  It's a thousand like Ned Kelly who'll hoist the flag of stars"
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns