HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 788
Date: 6 Oct 92 11:16:45 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <9210020432.AA15321@NMSU.Edu> loki@acca.nmsu.edu writes:
#
#Would someone care to enlighten the darkness of my ignorance with a 
#description of the 788?  I understand it to be a lightweight bolt
#rifle, and perhaps the inexpensive precursor to the model 7, but I
#have never seen one in the flesh, as it were.  What is the safety
#set up?  Magazine?
#
The Remington 788 is one of those designs (by Mike Walker, I believe)
where inexpensive translated into simple and quick rather than
cheesy and flakey.  It has absolutely no relationship to any other
Remington rifle.  It is a rear-locking-lug rifle, which is not
normally a great thing, but it has 9 locking lugs and a very herky
cylindrical receiver, so it works out fine.

The stock is some sort of non-descript hardwood.  There are no
alloy parts, and the only plastic apparent is the knob on the
safety, the "button" on the magazine, and the rear open sight
base (which goes when you mount a scope). 

The 788 has a detachable box magazine, with a capacity of three 
rounds (in the calibers I'm familiar with), and a thumb-operated
safety/bolt release at the right rear of the bolt.  The left-hand
versions still have the ejection port on the right side.

I am told that part of the model's accuracy comes from a very
quick lock time, an outgrowth of Walker's design simplicity.
Triggers range from not-great to ptui.

I hope you find one and enjoy it.  

#I had hoped to purchase one in .308, left handed, but it was gone
#before I could make an offer.  Perhaps just as well, since I have
#only a vague idea of what I would have been purchasing...
#
#"Master... Master...                       (To The Tune of Metallica's)
#	Master of Science is your degree.  ('Master of Puppets')
#	You're too dumb for a PhD.              loki@acca.nmsu.edu
#	Should have studied for the GRE!    taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm: Which *not* to buy?
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:02:49 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Oct2.235658.1031@megatek.com> cjp@megatek.com (Chris "Systems Stud" Pikus) writes:

}	2. Why are you fiddling around with RamLine magazines? Sig makes
}FACTORY 20 round magazines. Magazines are an important enough part of
}the gun not to risk using substitutes.

The RamLine 18 round magazines are the same dimensions as the SIG 15
rounders, so I don't have an inch or two of magazine projecting below the
grip.  They've been 100% reliable, so far (several hundred rounds through
each).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: ee@lever.com (Edward Elhauge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Loaded Clips
Date: 2 Oct 92 11:38:51 GMT
Organization: Lever Industries

In article <9209300801.aa11961@sco1.qdeck.com> burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
#In article <1992Sep25.015920.1974@odin.corp.sgi.com> barnes@cowboys.esd.sgi.com (Jim Barnes) writes:
##If I have my clip loaded but out of the gun, the gun is still considered
##loaded.
##Right?
##Now what if I have a unloaded clip in the gun and a loaded clip near
##by???????
##Am I still in trouble?????
##
#
#In California, you still would be in trouble.  The rule of thumb being
#immediate access to both gun and ammo at the same time.  Granted I have
#broken this thumb on many occaisions.  They are supposed to be separate
#and locked.
#
#Bill	burge@qdeck.com

In California, can one have a gun with an unloaded magazine locked in a range
bag, with full clips in an outside pocket? This would be a convenient thing
to do if you don't want to eject all the bullets from your gun before going
to the range.

I asked the people at the range and they weren't sure. In fact they said they
asked a cop about it and the cop wasn't sure.
-- 
--
     Edward Elhauge       You will eat (you will eat), bye & bye (bye & bye)
    Lever Industries      In that glorious land above the sky (way up high)
      San Francisco       Work & pray (work & pray), live on hay, (live on hay)
From: watt-alan@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W Help Sought
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:41:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Sep30.144314.20710
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <199209291901.AA23277@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep27.132956.29775@ke4zv.uucp> wa4mei!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
|> #Since the Glock system gives you, in practice, the exact same safety
|> #as a transfer bar equipped revolver, and most people have little concern
|> #about holster carrying loaded revolvers, I fail to see the issue.
|> 
|> As was pointed out to me via e-mail, Glocks often come with a 
|> fairly light trigger pull. _This_ could be a problem to holster.
|> However, there are standard options for a heavier trigger pull (I
|> think 8 or 9 lbs.) which should be no more dangerous than a revolver.
|> 
|>                                                Frank Crary
|>                                                CU Boulder
|> 
|> 

I think the legitimate concern here is the *act* of holstering a
firearm which (1) has a light trigger pull, and (2) has no external
hammer to allow you to tell by feel that the trigger is hanging up
on some part of the holster.

I agree, once the gun is secured in a proper holster, there should be
no concern about accidental discharges.

I've been told that proper holstering technique in a real-for-civilians
situation requires you be able to do it one-handed without looking.
I can easily imagine situations where the trigger catches some part
of the holster, or part of your shirt-tails while you are pushing the
gun into the holster.  With an external hammer you can tell this is
happening and stop before a discharge occurs.  With a manual safety
you can be reasonably assured the gun won't discharge no matter how
hard you press the trigger.  With neither, you are counting on feeling
a difference of 5lbs in holstering effort.

I realize it does violence to Gaston Glock's original premise, but
a manual safety would seem to be the obvious solution.  As action
shooters have proved, you can wipe off the safety during the final
motion of bringing the gun up to firing position and not lose any
time.  It is better to have a crisp trigger at the expense of
an extra lever than to have no levers at the expense of a hard trigger.
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
From: jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: question on compact guns in 007-james-bond movie
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:21:41 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia


	In the latest "007" movie "Lisence to kill" Bond works with a CIA 
opperative called 'Bouvier' who is a nice looking girl who carries 'two'
very small compact semi-autos, one in her purse and on the inside of her
right thigh (one advantage for a dress!).
	Does any one know what are these guns? The picture wasn't clear 
enough for me to recognise them. Thanks in advance.
							John D.
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: steel shot, ballistic penetrators?
Date: 26 Sep 92 15:38:50 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Sep24.164310.4467@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#The thread about non-lead bullets has got me wondering:
#
#Lead is 'bad-stuff', but tin bullets were reputed to be a no-no
#because they are able to penetrate ballistic shields, since they
#are harder than lea.
#
#Steel is harder than tin.
#
#Ought not steel shot to penetrate soft body armour?

00 steel buckshot, if there is such a thing, would have a muzzle energy
of about 300 ft-lb, less than a .38 SPL, so it wouldn't have the energy
to tear kevlar. But more important, the buckshot is round. If you can't
tear the kevlar, you have to thread through like a needle, or ice pick.
That requires a pointed projectile. Smaller shot has less energy, and
loses it faster as it travels from the muzzle. I don't think steel
shot could penetrate a ballistic shield.

Gary
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm: Which *not* to buy?
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:31:50 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Sep29.092723.25413@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
}rayma@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (Michael A Ray) writes:
}
}#Glock 17/19
}
}Only for people with big hands.  I have a Glock 19 (same grip size as
}the Glock 19, only a bit shorter) and I know a couple of fellow
}shooters who don't like it because of the huge grip.
}
}If you have small hands, stay away from the Glocks.

I have a SIG P226 and medium-large hands. (I wear "large" size gloves).
My index finger can barely get a proper position on the trigger when my
grip is as it should be (barrel in line with forearm).  I suspect this may
be a problem with many high-capacity/double column autoloaders.  If you
have small hands, be sure to try before you buy.

(But, if it fits and you can afford it, get a SIG.  They're great for
combat style competitions.  They're extremely accurate, never jam and can
load 18+1 with RamLine magazines.  Plus, they come stock with most of the
features you'd otherwise have to pay a gunsmith to add.  Mine just won me
3rd place in stock pistol at a local IPSC style shoot.  It was only my
third competition and that after a three month hiatus with no practice).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: police marksmenship?
Date: 26 Sep 92 15:39:02 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1992Sep21.164658.22784@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> tjohnson@xenon.stanford.edu (Ted C. Johnson) writes:
#I'm just trying to get a feel for how I compare to the guys
#who do this for a living.

I doubt that whatever you do with guns compares very closely to what
law enforcement officers do for a living!

#From reports I've heard, many (not all) police departments place
little emphasis on marksmanship and sometimes not sufficient on
important matters such as weapons retention.  Note that Ayoob has
criticized LA police training in use of the PR24 (baton) since
apparently the officers were not trained in how to use it to
efficiently subdue a belligerent suspect such as Rodney King,
but only in how to beat om him with it.  Given the emphasis on
public relations by LAPD management, you can imagine what level
of firearms skills have been drilled into their recruits.

My own experience in the Army bears this out.  As in the LA riots
where the National Guard was (at least at times) "armed" with
unloaded weapons, I recall guarding ammo storage bunkers with an
unloaded M16A1 to keep me company.  If anybody had tried to break
in, I assure you I would not have stood in their way.  It's not my
fault if management was stupid.
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 7.5 Swiss Ammo
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:29:57 GMT
Organization: who knows

C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes...
#Can anyone give me a source for 7.5 Swiss ammo, as used in the
#Schmidt-Rubin straight-pull rifles?  I know Norma makes it; is
#there cheaper stuff out there?  How about surplus?

Besides Norma, I think that Federal/American Eagle use to make it with Norma
brass but they no longer manufacture it but you may find some at gun shows. 
I haven't seen much in surplus; what I've seen is berdan primed and fairly
expensive - $20-30/100.

If you reload, you can use Norma brass and .311 bullets.  I been told that
you can resize brass from some common caliber, I think it's .284. These dies
are available from RCBS.

#I'm also looking for a replacement stock for the rifle - someone
#shortened the original one and I'd like to restore it to its
#original military configuration.

Try Sarco or Springfield Sporter; they have ads in Shotgun News.

#One last question:  What's the current value on the Schmidt-Rubin?
#This is a model 1911.  I can't find it in the 13th edition of the
#Blue Book....

I think somewhere in between $150 and $250.
From: ehorne@zeus.calpoly.edu (Eric T Horne)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Colt Sporter and cleaning
Date: 6 Oct 92 11:16:47 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo


  Just got access to the News posting, so I want to pose a few questions
  to ya'll..


  I just got a Colt Sporter Match HBAR (.223), and shot with it for the
  first time on Sunday. Now I have to clean it, and I was wondering
  if anyone out there has any insider-tips to cleaning this particular
  weapon. I read the manual, it said to watch out for small springs 
  that may spring out when stripping the gun for cleaning. 

  I also remember reading about a FAQ in the making.. has anything 
  become of this?
	[MODERATOR:   errr..... real soon now...]

  Thanks for the info.. 

  -Eric

  PS Who is this "Ayoob" guy anyway?
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Baretta 92
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:57:02 GMT
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:

# I just read where the Army had adopted the Sig Sauer P228 as the new "compact
# model pistol. They should have picked the P226 the first time as well.
# (asbestos on for all you Beretta owners ;)

They did as I recall, but the Beretta was cheaper. Maybe they should
have done a test where they dropped in in a mudpuddle and then fired
it without cleaning it. Of course if they did that, then they wouldn't
have adopted the M-16. :-)

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hoppe's 9 & cleaning fluids
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:30:41 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <9209291429.AA13696@TIS.COM> stur@TIS.COM (Jeff Sturgess) writes:
#I don't drink the stuff, nor do I bathe in it so it could only get into my 
#system through inhalation of the vapors.   Does anybody have any facts as to
#whether or not the use of Hoppe's 9 is a health risk?   Thank you. 

Virtually all organic solvents are potential health risks.  That doesn't
mean you should panic and avoid them, rather that you should use them
with due care.  Wear latex gloves, use in ventilated area, avoid fumes,
etc.

People these days go pretty much insane over rumors of chemical hazards.
We lost the use of many great, low-hazard chemicals such as DDT due to
reaction to unsubstantiated rumors.
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What does Magnum mean?
Date: 2 Oct 92 11:39:11 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <9209301808.AA07100@dvorak.amd.com> mbehrens@barqs.amd.com (Mikael Behrens) writes:
#|   As someone else already noted, in handgun cartridges "magnum" usually
#| means "longer and stronger"...

#No, you're both wrong.  Here's Webster's definition:
#mag num \'mag-nem\ n
#[L, neut. of magnus great]
#(1788)
#:a large wine bottle holding about 1.5 liters 

Actually, it's the exact same word: A magnum of wine (or more often champaign)
is a larger than usual container filled with a greater amount of the
"strong" contents. That's also exactly what a magnum cartridge is (although
the nature of the contents is a little different...)

                                                Frank Crary
                                                CU Boulder
From: watt-alan@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock adoption
Date: 6 Oct 92 19:39:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Oct6.135736.2367
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <1992Oct4.061151.2515@netcom.com>, tmi@netcom.com (Peter Alan Kasler) writes:
|> In <1992Oct3.003922.5337@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> #	Has the Glock been adopted by any large organization, police-force or
|> #military?
|> 
|> 	As of a couple of months ago, about 4,000 agencies or
|> departments in the U.S. had adopted or otherwise authorized Glock
|> pistols for use.

	...


Ummm, I'm not saying anything bad about the Glock, which has a lot of
fans, but the phrase "...adopted or otherwise authorized ..." seems
to have a lot of latitude.  To my simple-minded reading, "adopted"
means an agency has decided to spend its money (well, ours really ..)
to purchase a given pistol for issue to its officers.  "Authorized"
means that said agency will agree that an officer wishing to purchase
a given pistol may carry it as a duty sidearm or backup.  I would
expect that the list of "authorized" guns to be much larger than
the list of "adopted" ones, except in the case of the FBI, which
"adopts" a new gun every week.

I remember a note in the American Rifleman when the Washington D.C.
police "adopted" the Glock.  It seems the Washington Post, which only
months earlier had called the Glock "a terrorist's dream" and "a gun
only the NRA could love" was rather subdued in its reporting of the
event.  It seems if you or I wanted to buy one, the Glock is "an
invisible plastic handgun", but when the police adopt it, it becomes
"a 9mm semi-automatic sidearm manufactured by Glock, of Austria".
I guess raiding those metal-detector-equiped crack houses calls for
special equipment.  Unless, of course, the mayor is inside ....


Even though I'm a SIG/Sauer fan, I do have to admit the fact the SIG
has been "adopted" by the FBI and the Glock hasn't is a strong argument
in favor Glock :-) 
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Glock mini-9mm
Date: 26 Sep 92 15:39:08 GMT

I know nothing about the mini-Glock, but I saw a small 9mm at
a gun show recently.  I believe the name was Sardius Arms SD-9.

I know nothing about the gun, so if anyone can post info on it,
it'd be helpful...

Also, the gun rags have lately been talking about a very compact
9mm pistol from South Africa, and rumors that Smith & Wesson are
negotiating for the rights to make it here...the picture shows it
next to an HK P7, which is larger.

Rob
From: Sproul@sproul.sproul.com (Mark Sproul)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Bullet Collator
Date: 5 Oct 92 02:19:40 GMT
Organization: Sproul Consulting


Several years ago I purchased a bullet collator from Western Manufacturing
located in Washington State.  I called the number that I had listed
for them and also tried infromation and could not find them.  They appear 
to be out of business.

Does anyone know anything about them?

Does anyone know of any other companies that make bullet collators
for use on progressive reloadied presses (i.e. Dillon 650)?

-------------------------------------
Mark Sproul - KB2ICI
From: biocca@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Alan K Biocca)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dillon XL 650 progressive reloader
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:39:39 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <1992Sep26.162416.25608@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#In article <D2150096.oq3vv6@sproul.sproul.com> Sproul@sproul.sproul.com (Mark Sproul) writes:
##
##I just recieved my new Dillon 650 reloading press......

#... please detail how you are mounting it and how well that
#works out. I'm considering one and want to know how massive a loading
#bench I'm going to have to have. I use two RCBS presses now on a steel
#reinforced plywood and 4x4 bench 38 inches high. That's ideal for my
#height with these presses. The 650 appears to be a monster, table
#size and strength, as well as ceiling clearance are concerns.

Interesting question - the stiffness required in the loading bench is usually
primarily related to the leverage of the press, since the forces required to
actuate it exceed the weight by a large factor.  The Dillon I have (an older
RL450) requires less bench stiffness than the RCBS Junior.  The cast aluminum
frames on the Dillons are a lot lighter than they look - again, as an example
the RL450 weighs less than the RCBS Jr.

Alan K Biocca
From: lucifer@world.std.com (Kevin S Green)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Wear on 92FS barrel
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:21:50 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

In article <1992Oct2.015305.864@palm.com> palm!ain@netcom.com (Ain McKendrick) writes:
|
|A question for Beretta 92 owners:
|
|   I recently purchased a blued 92FS.  After putting a couple hundred rounds
|through it, I have started to notice some wear on the barrel just aft of the 

Your Beretta has just been de-virginized, that's all. I had the 
same concern when I first started shooting my Beretta.

-- 
Kevin S. Green / lucifer@world.std.com / {xylogics;uunet}!world!lucifer
               /America Online: Gargoth
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beginner's questions ?....
Date: 27 Sep 92 00:17:30 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <9209241849.AA10938@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:
##That's a good description of the carbines on the market today. But
##historically, didn't a carbine generally also fire pistol ammunition?

#Wouldn't "intermediate" cartridge be a better description?
#The M1 carbine shoots something a bit healthier than most pistol ammo.

I was thinking of longer ago than that: I think cavalry troops were
armed with pistol and carbine (wern't carbines _invented_ for this
purpose?) using the same ammunition for convienience.

                                                Frank Crary
                                                CU Boulder
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Are there restrictions on carry in public places
Date: 2 Oct 92 11:39:08 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

Florida, a fairly liberal state gun-law-wise, does issue CCW permits to 
anyone without a record who takes the appropriate CCW course.

State code allows carrying with a permit except in bars (any 
establishment that serves alcohol) and in public buildings.  The code 
lists several buildings, such as courthouses, university buildings, 
banks, state office buildings, municipal buildings, etc.

Additionally, there are some interesting glove-compartment laws here.  
I didn't read that code, however, and in the interest of avoiding bad 
information, I won't post that information unless you ask that I go to 
the library to look it up.

Todd
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .308 PISTOL
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:13:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbfsb.1992Sep30.175644.15635
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1992Sep29.141914.8917@ke4zv.uucp> wa4mei!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#
#It's simple Bill, they *manufacture* them as pistols and sell them as 
#pistols under pistol rules. You can too. All it takes is a manufacturer's
#license from BATF. You don't want to know what it costs.

	It's $150/3 years.  Not too exhorbitant.  I think it is the state
	regulations that can make it expensive, like having to have safes
	and an alarm system.  At least these are the requirements in NJ
	as I understand them.

	The expensive FFL is for destructive devices, which runs $3000/3 years.

	-Andy V.