From: oberland@vax.sonoma.edu
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:29:18 GMT
Organization: Sonoma State University

In article <4743.1017.uupcb@spacebbs.com>, howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith)  writes:
> MW>I think you have forgotten the cost of replacing all of those batteries
> MW>every couple of years.
> 
> This applies to the present lead-acid (LA) batteries. There are new LA's
> on the way that offer much longer life. And NiMH batteries will last
> longer than the engines in most IC vehicles.
> 
> hhs
> ---
>  . SLMR 2.1a . If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny.

I drive 7-8000 miles a year. IF you subtract the 4 round-trips to LA
(420 miles each way, you arrive at a conservative figure of 5K a year.)
(I wouls rent or fly to LA)- I would also need no more than 200mile range,
and even then, a trip to LA would not be out of the question(would take 
1.5 days instead of 1 day)

At 5K a year, I am going to need replacement of those Ni-H in lessee...
about 8-10 YEARS!  Looks like I don't need to worry about replacement.
PERIOD.  So, my only cost would be the up-front cost.  EVEN if electricity
cost DOUBLES and gas goes to 2.00 a gallon(it is 1.35 right now), I figured
the following out:
6-10K more for the EV(why, I don't know, as the thing is simpler, and has less
materials-I figure the batteries cost 20K)-this is WAYYYY to high, considering
that such a vehicle would be available in 3-4 years, and Hi-H prices will be
MUCCCCH less by then.

200miles in avg commuter car would take 5 gallons of gas.  multiply times 
250 for 50K miles*2/gallon=2500 dollars for gas.  Recharging my EV would
not cost anywhere NEAR 10 dollars for 200 miles.
I figure a conservative 1000-1500 dollars less to run and operate for 50K
miles.
figure in oil changes, clutch job, muffler,tuneups, and simmilar, and
the costs just about even out(8-10years maint). If there is a 2-4K difference,
I would gladly pay it up front, as I can finance it over 10 years if need 
be(along with the car)
My monthly costs and repair costs would be much less with an EV

It is a LOT easier to figure in 4-6K replacement cost 6-10 yrs. down the line,
than it is to keep paying 1-2K a year for "routine maintenence", at times when
you CAN'T budget it.  AS for the comment about investing the extra money,
GET REAL.  Almost everyone finances their car, so having the extra money lying
around to invest is just not going to happen.  Also, that money IF it were
invested would most likely go for other things("..well, gee.. the car hasn't
had any problems so far, and a new Computer would be nice...).  
SHOW me 10 people who put aside 6-10k when they buy a car to pay for repairs
and I will believe you.


As for replacing the batteries, IF I need to replace them, I can either get
the same thing that was originally in the car(but now 10 YEAR old technology)
or I can get new ones that give me double the range, if not more.
Replacing them ten years down the road(or even 5) will cost little compared
to their original cost.

Someone commented about Ni-Cads costing 10K+ and Ni-H going for 30K+.
By the time I need to replace those Ni-H(a LONNNNG time), I need only
pay a fraction of that price.  Look at Ni-cads:5 years ago, they cost much
more.  consider this: I can get a D-cell NiCad for about 2 dollars, most of
which is packaging and casing that is 1.2v@4-5AH.

I figure NI-Cads will cost a LOT less to replace because they will NOT
be individual cells, either, but larger batteries.

As for lead-acid, WHY bother?  The Ni-H that come with the car should last
me twice as long(or more) than Ni-Cad(# of charges), have no "memory problem",
and can store almost twice the current.  Looks like 4* the life of Ni-Cad to me.
I shouldn't have to replace the batteries.  In 3-4 years it will take the EV's
to start to appear, the price of Ni-H will drop to just above Ni-Cads, and
possibly elliminate them altogether.

I also have not factored in the cost of the pollution I don't create.  I create
some, but much less than a normal vehicle, AND it is not going to cause smog or
other crap in my local environment.
(Geo-thermal, wind and Nuclear are primary sources of electricity here)
My EV is being powered by turbines at near 90%+ efficency, vs my current car
which uses a dirtier source of fuel at a MAX of 20-24%.  NO WAY a EV pollutes
more, or even the same.
Joe