From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,ba.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: why bother? (MANY GOOD REASONS! - THATS WHY!!!)
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:57:43 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Apr3.210045.5556@igor.tamri.com>, donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
> In article <10326@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# ## You have this odd notion that freedom means that you have the right
# ## to completely control who you associate with and that being forced
# ## to compromise the slightest bit means that you live in a Fascist
# ## society.
# #
# #So tell me, if the government passed a law telling you that you had
# #to go to church on Sunday mornings, from 10:00-12:00 (the government
# #picks the church, of course), you would smile stupidly and say,
# #"Compromise is the price we pay for living in a civilized society."
# #I mean, that wouldn't be fascist.  It's just a couple hours a week,
# #right?
# 
# Nope.
# 
# If the government passed a law saying that I had to paint my face
# green and walk on my hands, I also wouldn't comply.  If they pass a
# law saying that I can't burn my house down because it's too close to
# another, I would comply.  There's a difference.

What is that difference?  That one is "reasonable" and the other is
not?  What makes one reasonable and one unreasonable?

# #Reading the list of organization names in soc.motss is such a persuasive
# #example of how widespread the discrimination is. :-)
# 
# Clayton, I don't know whether you've always lived in northern CA your
# whole life but you might want to consider the fact that the tolerance
# shown in (some) Bay Area towns is the exception, not the norm.  Back
# in upstate NY, where I grew up, I knew a teacher who was gay and was
# fired when that was found out.  Despite the fact that he was supposed
# to be a decent teacher

You have made an excellent argument that if you live in an area that
doesn't tolerate gays, it would be best to be quiet about it, or 
move somewhere more tolerant.  But if the population is that intolerant,
how will you get an antidiscrimination law passed?

Or is this just about using political power?

# #But let's think about this for a second.  Let us imagine a society
# #where homosexuals were so hated (or at least, not wanted) that they
# #couldn't get jobs or housing.  That implies that either the homophobes 
# #are the vast majority of the population (in which case such a law
# #is clearly not going to pass in a democracy), or the employers and
# #landlords are dramatically different from the general population.
# #
# #Let's assume the first case: why, then, should our REPRESENTATIVES
# #pass a law that a majority, and a large majority at that, utterly
# #disapprove of?  If they do, then the homosexuals control the government,
# #not the majority.
# #
# #Let's assume the second case: how did the homophobes end up with
# #most of the businesses and rental units?  Especially since we all
# #know that fundamentalists are knuckle-dragging morons who think
# #the Earth is the center of the universe. :-)
# 
# Of course, you've refused to consider the case that some members of
# society dislike gays, some think they should be treated fairly and some
# just don't care.
# 
#    don

Fine.  Consider a society where a third actively disapprove of
homosexuality, a third approve of it enough that they believe in
antidiscrimination laws, and a third don't care.  (This may well be
the situation in California).  What are the market forces that put 
homosexuals at a disadvantage?  Unless the one third who are hostile
control more than one third of employment or housing, their "prejudice"
will cause them to lose potential employers and tenants, reducing
their market size, and thus reducing their profitability.

This assumes, of course, that the prejudice is unreasonable and
has no relation to the real world.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"The mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a
favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace
of God." -- Thomas Jefferson