From: vanweer@ecf.toronto.edu (VANWEERDENBURG NICHOLAS JOHN)
Subject: Re: Removing "god" from morality. (was: Moral liberty)
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 04:11:01 GMT

In article <105955@bu.edu> wooyoung@bu.edu (WooYoung Chung) writes:
>John Munch (jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu) wrote:
>: In article <105796@bu.edu> wooyoung@acs.bu.edu (WooYoung Chung) writes:
>: >
>    [some stuff deleted]
>: >
>: >I do not know a lot of different religions; but, at least in the case of
>: >catholicism, rewards and punishments are signicantly over-emphasized,
>: >IMHO.  I think the reasons behind people's behavior is as important 
>: >as the behavior itself.  
>: >
>: >Whether one believes in god or not, he or she cannot deny the fact that 
>: >religion is a social institution that guides the morality of the
>: >society.  Perhaps the religion needs to grow with the society 
>   that it serves.
>: >The society that we live in has been going through a very rapid changes 
>: >in recent years.  Overall, there are more educated people than ever before.
>: >There are growing incidences of failure of hierarchical structure that 
>: >focuses on obedience. (e.g. failure of communism or failure of many 
>: >large bureaucratic organizations) 
>: >
>: >The religious organizations should learn and adopt to the
>: >societal changes.  They should try to balance Skinnerian approach 
>: >(inducing behavior with positive and negative feedbacks) with
>: >more humanistic approach (e.g. educating the value of "just" 
>: >behavior)
>: >
>: Well why not drop religion completely, and still do what you are calling
>: for? We can educate the value of "just" behavior without bringing
>: superstition into it. Society and "just" behaviors are a benefit to
>: every individual within the society. The problem is that children do not
>: always inherently see the benefit to themselves. 
> 
>[some stuff deleted]
>:                        -John David Munch
>
>Well, John, I can think of two reasons why we still need to relate
>morality with religion.  The first reason is the natural course of human 
>development.  For example, you pointed out that we could communicate
>with children on the true value of "just" behaviors.  I am not certain 
>that is all that practical.  It takes certain mental maturity to grasp 
>the the value of justice (not that I am that mature :-)) 
>
>Chidren and "young adults" are not likely to have this maturity.  They 
>are more likely to exhibit ego-centric thinking and behaviors. (You 
>know, very young children sometimes try to hide from others by covering
>their own eyes.  That sort of self-centered [without any negative 
>connotation] thinking lasts for awhile in more subtle ways)  In fact, some 
>portion of population just don't grow into higher level of moral 
>development (from reward and punishment oriented behavior to understanding 
>the value of justice) 
>
>Well, the second issue is the nature of modern culture, more specifically
>the western culture that we live in.  Human psyche can be divided into 
>two parts: self-image and "I".  The self-image is the image of oneself 
>that he/she uses to carry on everyday life.  The image of what we are and 
>what is important to us.  "I" is the part of our psyche that allows us 
>to reflect on our behaviors and thinking (I believe it is called
>reflexive monitoring.)
>
>This ability of reflexive monitoring allows us to find the value of 
>justice and sympathy for others etc.  Yet, the culture we live in 
>discourages people from thinking about ourselves (the meaning of life 
>etc.)  We live in a very "science" orineted society.  Highly 
>compartmentalized business organizations are dominating our 
>lives and our social structure, and most of all the way we think. 
>Loud music and highly stimulating mass entertainments allows to 
>spend our time not thinking about the issues such as justice, life
>etc.  
>
>I am not claiming that the whole population is completely under 
>this influence; but a large part of our population is under some 
>degree of influence.  Religion does provide practical moral guidelines 
>for these people, combining these guidelines with little bit "threat", 
>little of "secure" feeling, etc. 
>
>What do you think?
>


Practical moral guidelines?
How about a 1) wish to please your parents, 2) a wish to please and fit in
with your society and peer groups, 3) a wish to stay out of jail.  When I
was in grade 2, kids would tatle on each other for swearing.  They had a
deep sense of justice- they did exactly what they were told to do, and felt
bad if they did otherwise because they didn't have the deeper sense of
morality to form their own beliefs.

Also religious morality tends not to be based on humane considerations,
but on dogma.  I'm not much for people who work on the sabbath 'being
surely put to death'.  Or chopping the hand of a wife who tries to grab
the genitals of the guy here hubbies tiffing with.  Religious morality
is no morality.  Its a set of rules people blindly follow.  Morality
has to come from reason, and followed because a) we are emotionally compelled
to or b) we'll get the shit kicked out of us by our peers if don't.

Morality question:  do you have any copied music or software?

Xref: sparky alt.atheism:25473 talk.religion.misc:25636