HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 19:05:30 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Nov17.163629.1172@mr.med.ge.com> wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us writes:

>The pain of being transexual is almost to much to bear. Many Transexual
>people kill themselves over the internal conflict. We are branded as crazy
>by many who have no idea of how we feel. I have never thought or dreamed
>like my male friends. I have had to force myself (with great difficulty) to
>act and react like a male. My therapist says the hardest part will be to
>drop the male shell I have hidden myself in (so that I could survive as a
>male). 

   There is at least one branch of feminist thinking that tends 
   to downplay the concept that gender roles are anything more 
   than the results of socialization.  These people believe that
   any suggestion that there are innate differences in affect
   or intellect to be highly questionable and in any case that
   such suggestions, or research that would tend to focus on 
   such things, are politivally incorrect.   (a couple of decades
   ago the concept that gender differences were mainly socialization
   was a common theme among many feminists; I don't know whether
   it still is.)

   How do those who hold this view square it with the opinions 
   of posters like the above?   Transexuals will frequently claim
   that they "feel like" a member of U sex in a V body.   Indeed,
   interesting philosophical questions are raised by just asking
   what it means to "feel like" a member of a certain gender.
  
   I am a male.  I am physically attracted to females, which makes
   me heterosexual.  I have a variety of personality characteristics
   and might feel happy, sad, driven, angry, elated, wistful, melan-
   choly, silly, and so forth at various times.   Yet despite all
   of this I'm not sure what it "feels like" to be a man.   That is, 
   I can't associate any of these feelings with "maleness" and 
   obviously I don't know what it "feels like" to be female, either.
   So why/how does the above poster think she (he?  --what's the
   correct pronoun?) does?


---peter
From: jam+@cs.cmu.edu (Joe Mattis)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Cold Marriage
Keywords: Marriage
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:35:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.By6xFM.IuD.1
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <By21JL.MA2@NeoSoft.com> martink@NeoSoft.com (Martin Koistinen) writes:
>	My wife regards intimicy in general as a very uncomfortable
>feeling. [...]  When we first met we had a VERY active sex-life [...]

Perhaps your wife believes that, once people become heavily invested in
their relationship, they are no longer supposed to be intimate.  Of course,
you don't believe this.

>I told her
>that I'd like her and I to see a marriage counselor.  She cried
>and drew up parallels between our's and her previous marriage
>thinking that we were now one step closer to divorce.

Of course, she is right.  The question is, does she want to do something
about it, or is she going to let the same thing happen again?

>She asks me "why
>can't you just KNOW that I love you and leave it at that?"

Well, you probably *do* know that intellectually, but so what?  You need
more than just *knowing*...you need to be touched, and held, and whispered
to.  You need physical intimacy, and without it you're miserable.  Her
question of "why?" is irrelevant...whatever the reason, you need physical
intimacy just like you need food, water, and companionship.

She used to be physically intimate with you, and you had a *right* to expect
that to continue after you married her.  *She* is the one who changed, not
you, and by doing so *she* has morally broken her marriage vow to you.

>[...] She [has] this cute child like mood that I am really fond of [...] we
>have NEVER-EVER engaged in romance/sex during her cute mood. [...]

I think there is something very complex going on inside her head.

>I love her very much.  I want our relationship to work.  I
>want us to have a happy, successful marriage.

Does she also want this?  If so, she must be prepared to work VERY HARD for
a LONG TIME on it.  She must decide if the marriage is worth it to her.
I can't imagine the marriage suceeding without professional help, involving
both joint consuling and private therapy sessions.

And of course, this ordeal will be no walk in the park for you, either.
But from what you've said, it sounds like you've already decided that it
would be worth it to you.

>I vowed to her that I'd never leave her [...]

No...you made that vow to somebody who is no longer there.  You didn't promise
the stranger you're living with *anything*.  But if you eventually need to
assert that, make sure that you protect yourself legally.

-Joe Mattis    ARPA:  jam@isl1.ri.cmu.edu
               UUCP:  ...!ucbvax!isl1.ri.cmu.edu!jam@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
Xref: sparky soc.women:19884 alt.feminism:4684 soc.men:19542
From: charleen@ADS.COM (Charleen Bunjiovianna)
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:51:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: ads.1992Nov18.215150.5881
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Original Estrogen-Crazed Lust Bunnies

In article <1992Nov18.153348.6594@mr.med.ge.com> wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us writes:
>
>I will say this. You are looking at this from one side only. I am starting
>to see it from the other side. Whether you believe it or not, women are 
>looked down upon in this society. Very few men treat them as equals. 

This is at least the third time you've stated this as fact, and I can
no longer ignore it.  Your whole premise, quite simply, is suspect.

Wendy, you're a pre-op transexual identifying as a woman, not a woman.
Your perspective is as a transexual, not as a woman.  You didn't grow
up as a woman.  You don't have the biological functions of a woman.
You will someday have the physical appearance of a woman.  If you are
very lucky (and I hope you are), you will be able to function sexually
as a woman.

But don't tell me that I, as a woman, am treated in such-and-such a 
way and that you can prove this through your own experience.  I don't
buy it.  

Charleen

--
Of all the tall tales, I think my favorite is the one about Eli Whitney and
the interchangeable parts.
Xref: sparky soc.women:19838 alt.feminism:4665 soc.men:19515
From: Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk (Chris Holt)
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Practise what you preach? (was:what is sexist?)
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:15:16 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU

dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
>mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini) writes:

>> I *think* that there is a feminist consensus that terms of endearment
>> directed toward non-loved ones are condescending.  This implies that it
>> isn't *nice* to use them.

>From what I've heard from feminists in this and other groups, I would agree.

Note that this is a cultural phenomenon, probably more prevalent
in the US than elsewhere.  I get called "love" all the time here
by people I don't know in shops and the like; and I was called
"pet" frequently in Belfast.  Of course, some Americans have a
naturally sarcastic tone of voice, so everything sounds insulting... :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk      Computing Lab, U of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Systems design flourishes best when it is half a trade and half an art...
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel)
Subject: Re: Mammogram
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:50:10 GMT

charleen@net.bio.net (Charleen Bunjiovianna) writes:

>My doctor recommended that I have a baseline mammogram done.  I put
>it off for a year and a half because I had heard that it was painful
>and I was afraid of the procedure.  I'm posting this so others will
>know what to expect.

>I'm 39 years old.  While your doctor is not likely to recommend that
>you have yearly mammograms done until you reach 50, most like to get
>a baseline done at age 40.

The benefits of a mammogram begin to offset the risks around this range,
or are at least believed to do so.

A couple of troubling points, gleaned from some medical reports: apparently
the mortality rate for breast cancer has not changed significantly in the
last 10-20 years, in spite of much more rigorous attempts to detect the
cancer early. What has changed is the length of survival from first
symptoms until demise. Unfortunately, this increase can be accounted for
by the fact that breast cancer is detected at an earlier stage nowadays,
suggesting that just as many people die from the disease as 20 years ago,
they simply are aware of their cancer at an earlier stage.

The depressing conclusion reached by this report: the risk of dying from
breast cancer does not seem to be reduced significantly by early detection 
and treatment. The fact that there is little difference in the long-term  
survival rates of patients receiving radical mastectomies or lumpectomies 
suggests that the more invasive forms of this cancer typically spread 
early and quickly, accounting for the majority of deaths from this disease.

Regards,
       H. Biesel
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: 890530m@dragon.acadiau.ca (Darren MacKenzie)
Subject: Re: Cold Marriage
Keywords: Marriage
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:02:45 GMT

rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack) writes:

>In article <1992Nov21.230335.6184@dragon.acadiau.ca> 890530m@dragon.acadiau.ca (Darren MacKenzie) writes:
>>rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack) writes:
>>
>>>Do yourself a favor and seek professional help.  If she won't
>>>go with you go by yourself.
>>
>>On the contrary, I do believe it's HER that needs the help, not HIM!!
>>-Doc

>Actually, it sounded to me like he was in a great deal of pain
>because of something that was happening between the two of
>them.  I suggested they both go with the intent of correcting
>the situation, and if she wouldn't go that he go to get help
>with the pain he was feeling.  

>I have no idea what you read into what I wrote, but the above
>is what I intended.

>Rich Soyack

Okay, sorry...I read you wrong.
-Doc

-- 
=============================================================================== The Commodore Amiga 4000 - 24 bit          16,777,216 colors (4096^2)!!         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Buster: "Say goodnight, Babs."                                                 
Babs  : "Goodnight, Babs."                                                      I'm tiny, I'm toony, and I'm a little looney!                                   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darren MacKenzie                                                                ("The Doctor")                                                                  890530m@aucs.acadiau.ca
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Organization: Nowhere
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 19:09:28 GMT

Let me try this again. My news feed has been down and I had a friend post 
it for me from where he works. But my feed is working again, so I'm 
posting this again from my own system, just in case.

Charleen Bunjiovianna (charleen@ADS.COM) wrote:
> In article <1992Nov18.153348.6594@mr.med.ge.com> wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us writes:
> >
> >I will say this. You are looking at this from one side only. I am starting
> >to see it from the other side. Whether you believe it or not, women are 
> >looked down upon in this society. Very few men treat them as equals. 
> 
> This is at least the third time you've stated this as fact, and I can
> no longer ignore it.  Your whole premise, quite simply, is suspect.
> 
> Wendy, you're a pre-op transexual identifying as a woman, not a woman.
> Your perspective is as a transexual, not as a woman.  You didn't grow
> up as a woman.  You don't have the biological functions of a woman.
> You will someday have the physical appearance of a woman.  If you are
> very lucky (and I hope you are), you will be able to function sexually
> as a woman.
> 
> But don't tell me that I, as a woman, am treated in such-and-such a 
> way and that you can prove this through your own experience.  I don't
> buy it.  
> 
> Charleen
> 
> --
> Of all the tall tales, I think my favorite is the one about Eli Whitney and
> the interchangeable parts.

I'm sorry if I got your dander up. You are 100% correct. I wasn't born a 
woman and I didn't grow up a woman. All I can tell you is that I am treated
differently when I'm perceived as female than I am when I am perceived as
male. It especially happens on the phone, where only my voice can be heard.
I even did a little experiment. I called up a company and asked for some information
on their products. I used my male voice. The question was answered quickly and
professionally. I called up two days later, talked to the same person, and asked
the same question. What I got was a condesending answer obviously addressed
to some stupid female who couldn't possible understand this stuff. It wasn't that
he was outright rude, it was just his answers (more explanations that you would
only give someone with no knowledge) and tone of voice. When I finally said "I
do understand, I'm an Engineer", his voice became very formal as though I had
insulted him. Why would he have talked to me any different, especially since
I asked the same question?

Remember, it's true that I wasn't born a woman, but neither were you born
a man. You have always interacted with men as a women, so you really don't
have any idea how they would talk to you if you were a man. I can see a
difference. 

Wendy

Newsgroups: soc.women
From: 890530m@dragon.acadiau.ca (Darren MacKenzie)
Subject: Re: Cold Marriage
Keywords: Marriage
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 19:03:29 GMT

jsmt@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Julia Smith) writes:

>In article <1992Nov21.230335.6184@dragon.acadiau.ca> 890530m@dragon.acadiau.ca (Darren MacKenzie) writes:
>>rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack) writes:
>>
>>>Do yourself a favor and seek professional help.  If she won't
>>>go with you go by yourself.
>>
>>On the contrary, I do believe it's HER that needs the help, not HIM!!
> 
>Doc, they both *need* help, but they need different kinds of help.
>He needs help to deal with his hurt and what it is going through in
>his increasingly abusive relationship (and if you don't think withholding
>affection is abuse, I feel very very sorry for you).  She definately needs
>help as well, but HE CANNOT CHANGE HER.  The only person he can change
>is himself.  If she won't get the help she needs to make a relationship
>tolerable, he'll have to figure out whether it is worth it to him to 
>stay or go.  but HE CANNOT CHANGE HER and no amount of pushing or
>prodding will force her to do something she isn't ready or willing
>to do.
>  The first tenant of recovery is that no one can do the work for you.
>That applies to trouble in relationships as well.  
>  Darren, if you sit around and wait for her to change, you are going
>to suffer some major hurt which will take you a long time to deal with.
>Start now - get the help you need.  Maybe once you start, and she sees
>that it doesn't turn you into a zombie, she will be able to take care
>of what is troubling her.

Yes, it's true that she has to change herself.  And I DO agree (wow,
I agreed with somebody)!  He can/therapy can HELP to make her make the
decision that she wants to change her life, or not.  And YES, he is
taking quite a bit of emotional abuse from her.  Loss of affection is
a TERRIBLE ABUSE that I would not wish upon ANYONE, not even my worst
enemy...just because it doesn't seem moral.  Once again, just my $0.02!
-Doc

-- 
=============================================================================== The Commodore Amiga 4000 - 24 bit          16,777,216 colors (4096^2)!!         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Buster: "Say goodnight, Babs."                                                 
Babs  : "Goodnight, Babs."                                                      I'm tiny, I'm toony, and I'm a little looney!                                   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darren MacKenzie                                                                ("The Doctor")                                                                  890530m@aucs.acadiau.ca
===============================================================================
From: charleen@net.bio.net (Charleen Bunjiovianna)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Mammogram
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:02:44 GMT
Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Biology

My doctor recommended that I have a baseline mammogram done.  I put
it off for a year and a half because I had heard that it was painful
and I was afraid of the procedure.  I'm posting this so others will
know what to expect.

I'm 39 years old.  While your doctor is not likely to recommend that
you have yearly mammograms done until you reach 50, most like to get
a baseline done at age 40.

I'm a B cup, not particularly large or small-breasted.

The technician will have you disrobe from the waist up.  The machine
used for my films was a senographe.  You stand in front of the machine,
and there's a "shelf" that the technician will position your breast
on.  A glass plate rests on top, then the picture is taken.  The
technician took top-down and side views of each breast.  The only
discomfort was a slight chill from the metal of the machine.

I had to go back to have magnified views done of one breast.  This time,
my breast was positioned *very* carefully, and a smaller 3 inch square
plate pressed down on it.  This did hurt a bit, something like having
your cat standing on your chest with most of her weight on her front
paws. :-)  But it was over quickly.

I feel silly in retrospect for not having done it sooner.  It's a quick
procedure, and in my case, it was completely covered by my medical
insurance.  If you're of an age where you should be having mammograms
done, do it.  It's worth the (very small) discomfort.

Charleen


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Newsgroups: soc.women
From: biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel)
Subject: Re: Sexist? Dangerous?
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:06:56 GMT

ra@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Starcap'n Ra) writes:

>biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel) writes:
>> Reminds me of New York, coldest, loneliest place on earth. Rudeness
>> seems to be inversely proportional to one's distance from Times Square.

>     Oh, you're so right, Heiner.  And on a related
>note, Germany is a very pretty country -- it would
>be such a nice place if it weren't for all the
>fucking Germans there, don't you agree?

Absolutely. Fortunately, the Germans, supremely rational people that they are,
are solving this problem by importing East European immigrants wholesale. The
resulting melange of skinheads, Neonazis, Gypsies, Greens, Muslims, Stasis,
opportunists, and stolid citizens should produce a Brave New Germany that will
make Berlin in the 1920's look like a Methodist Chautauqua.

On a related note: this would be one swell country, if it weren't for all 
them damn furriners, don't you agree?

Regards,
       H. Biesel
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Followup-To: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Organization: AEGIS
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:22:55 GMT

In article <Bxyx23.Hz5@apollo.hp.com>, nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter
Nelson) wrote:
>
[stuff deleted]
>   If an MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory --
>   a standard psychological test) were to be administered 
>   to transexuals and non-transexuals, what differences would
>   it reveal?   Would the MMPI for biologically male transexuals
>   be more similar to non-transexual biological females?
> 
> 
> ---peter

The MMPI is used in aiding the dianosis of transsexuals.
A friend of mine (biologically male trassexual) and scored 80 on the female
scale. A typical non-transexual biological woman scores 70.

In "Transvestites and Transsexuals" by Dr. Doctor (Yes, that is his name!)
has the scores of several transvestites and transsexuals on the MMPI.

Also see "Insearch of Eve" by Ann Bolin(sp?) for more such information.

Love and hugs,

Celeste
From: ahb0@aber.ac.uk (Anna He Baik)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Sad Day for Liberty
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:46:55 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

In article <1992Nov4.204156.29353@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
>In <1992Nov4.163113.27613@athena.cs.uga.edu> carr@athena.cs.uga.edu writes:
>
>> Colorado's Amendment 2, which makes it illegal to pass any legislation in
>> the state protecting gays & lesbians from harassment (or protecting their
>> right not to be fired because of their identity), FAILED.
>
>  First, this must be a typo.  If I read this right, it is still legal to
>pass legislation protecting gays and lesbians.  You should be happy about
>such a thing.
>
>  Gays and lesbians deserve protection.  Heterosexual white males deserve
>protection.  Jewish Afro-Italians deserve protection.  Why single out a 
>particular group?  The Constitution as is should serve to protect ALL indi-
>viduals.  The problem lies not in the law, but how it is applied -- a fault
>which would not be repaired by more legislation.

Erm.....Since all I've heard about the Colorado issue is from the net,
I can't claim to be an expert. However you seem to have missed the point.
A particular group *IS* being singled out when legislation like the
Colorado thing is proposed. 
swsus,
yon
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack)
Subject: Re: Vietnam Women's Memorial Project Kicks Off Countdown to Dedication in 1993
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 17:05:11 GMT

>no momument per se for American men who served in the war and survived.
>If I read this article correctly, this monument is for American women
>who served, and mentions nothing about death in the line of duty.
>
>  It seems that if a monument is to be erected to Vietnam veterens who
>served in the war (but did not die) that it should extend to both genders.
>Otherwise it's a sexist and exclusionary monument. 
>

Whenever I go to Washington, D. C. I go to the wall.  If my
son is with me he knows its a time for quiet reflection and
prayer.  I find the wall very moving, I'm sorry for the loss
of your three friends.  I am lucky enough to have no personal
friends or acquaintances represented there.

I was always under the impression that the statue representing
the soldiers in the field was a tribute to those who served in
Vietnam.

Rich Soyack