HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tncp9@isuvax.iastate.edu (D. Pendragon)
Subject: "'E puts bullets in me Demons' heads!"Or:  NOT AXIOM TALK
Reply-To: tncp9@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 06:34:57 GMT

Update on my Main Torg campaign (as opposed to my Tharkold campaign):

Well, it seems the party got a 3 month liesure to fatten up, by some real
estate, pick up some new skills, and basically get their butts out of lthe
fire...But these were the same people who gained international fame by 
toasting Kane and preventing a new High Lord from coming to power.

Enter:  THRATCHEN!

Yup, you guessed it.  They got a rude awakening when this demon fellow
got their attention.  Off to the City of Demons!

hehehehehehehHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahdh

But, as CJ's character abruptly learned/pointed out, it would seem that good
old gunslinging characters with 9mm guns can prove to be a demon's worst
nightmare:

During a moment when the team and Thratchen were beset by 15 techno-demons, 
we saw the good old true blue American baggin' wings!  Here's how he did it:
Don't attack the guy takin' swings at you, aim at the one who is concentrating
on someone else.  +3 to damage for blindsiding.  Squeeze off a few rounds.
+3 damage with your trusty Colt Auto.  Remember to have loaded Hollow points.
+1 damage.  Aim for the vitals.  +4 damage.  Spend a possibility on the roll
to get a nice fat bonus.  This recipe will self-destruct in 10 seconds (one
round).

OOOOOOOUUUUUUUCCCCCHHH!!!!!!!
And he drilled one right through the back of a demon's head and exit out the
front.  4 wounds. Dead, dead, dead.  A GLORIOUS and exciting time for the
PCs who are now mopping up demons with MUNDANE weapons.

Oh yea.  Great.  They killed all my demons. [sniffle].
Starting with a bonus of +11 before the die is even rolled.  Sigh.

I'll just have to award bonus possibilities for characters for being so
damn...efficient?  

I'm depressed.

-Pendragon
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bpostow@barney.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow)
Subject: Re: Psionics and Magic
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
	<EdtbcqS00awFEx610N@andrew.cmu.edu> <rose.703009225@acf9>
	<BPOSTOW.92Apr11151016@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>
	<cluther.703045790@morticia>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 02:15:21 GMT


>   bpostow@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow) writes:
>
>   >whoah, I have a BIG PROBLEM (tm) with set axiom levels... I have a
>   >feeling that this is oh, about 4 months late, but anyway...
>
>   Well, Brian, your outlook is a bit too inflexible.
[rest of argument taken out]

yes,that is my point! I am not too flexible, the not being flexible is
what annoys me [see BIG PROBLEM (tm)]. my problem isn't with tech
going up, it is that some people seem to think that the axioms and
tech in particular never change by more than 1 or 2. sure, that is the
largest extent of a fluctuation, but my point is that axioms, at least
CE axioms must be progressing. we have seen them progress. The
argument that "well, we have thought we saw the axioms progress but we
really just see us catching up to the axioms" is want bothers me. the
flaw in this argument is that if that is the case then what makes us
think that the tech axiom that we are at is the right one? what makes
us think that we are at the pinnacle of what we can be? 

it may just be because I am at Oberlin, one of the bastions of
radicle/wierd liberal/left/PC/whatnot... but this makes me think of
some things like "what makes Europeans think that their civalization
is the pinnacle" or many MANY other comments along those viens. What
makes us believe that CEers can never band together and form an EVEN
BETTER system of government, better than anything yet devised?
something along those lines... 


enough ranting

the upshot [for those who wisely skipped my ranting in the previous
two paragraphs in the hopes that I would summerize later, here it is]
is that I see no reason to say that CE axiom is at 23 and it has
always been there, and always will [without the interventin of a HL
of course]. I am infinitley [check that, TRANSFINITELY [sorry, i am a
math major]] more likely to believe that CE Tech axiom has been
progressing from 0 to the 23 that it is at today and in another 100
years we will be at 26 and 100 years after that... who knows..
[assuming of course that CE lives that long B-)]

g'nuchshun [sorry about my german spelling, I just know how to say it]


>   -- 
>   Clay W. Luther                  cluther@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
>   System Manager                  Center for Network Neuroscience
>   University of North Texas       PO Box 5218 Denton, Texas 76203
>   817/565-3896,3472               aka. Malraux@GodNet (Bushashuru!)

--
Brian Postow :: The Pasta Knight - that noodle head in shiny armour
reachable at:
bpostow@occs.oberlin.edu
sbp2530@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu		this space left unintentionally blank.
sbp2530@oberlin.bitnet.edu

Computer scientist do it backwards -- [Mathmatician's point of view]






Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 10:59:03 GMT


Mark C. writes:

> That's different, I guess. When a charcter transforms, I always think of
> the turning into 'the person they would have been, had they grown up under
> those axioms'. This will certainly include axiom-specific knowledge. My
> original objection was to the assumption that when the tech axiom of the
> Cyberpapacy was bumped up, some people suddenly 'understood'
> cybertechnology. Even under Jim's explanation, that falls flat: they would
> simply be able to understand technology. And I'm not sure if that kind of
> artificial meddling with the axioms will change people the way transforming
> does. Remember that people can (for example) live at tech level 14 in a
> tech 22 cosm and have no inkling of the possibilities of the higher
> technology, so tinkering with any of the axioms in an upward direction will
> not affect the way anybody lives; it just affects the way they *can* live.
> (IMHO, naturally)

Well, you can probably figure that a lot of people (as well as
nonliving objects) did transform when the Tech axiom got bumped up in
France; I believe that it says somewhere (either Cyberpapacy or GodNet
sourcebook) that the Darkness Device channelled extra Possibility
Energy into the realm when it raised the Tech axiom so that such a
thing would happen.  Compare it to Magna Verita, where the Tech axiom
did get raised but nothing seemed to change for the people there until
Malraux brought cyberware back from CyberFrance.

Kansas Jim (jogle@nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re: Axiom mania!
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:35:32 GMT

i have some difficulty with the personal axiom theory
in that you never disco "up" (the axiom gradient)

i see disco as the first step in transformation,
and not being able to raise your "personal" axioms would be bad
(all those CE's in the LL, forced to use SPIRIT 9!)

if you have an axiom below local, you are less likely to try a contra,
but your "reality" is still not the local one, and therefore
you are under the law of one 
(no, not in a roll, but the Eo1 SHOULD notice that you are different)
if you disco, you are filled with/bound by local reality,
and are for all intents and purposes a native of the cosm
(no knowledge gain until transformation, but the same opportunities)

i would also like to think that while the Primative Bushman is limited
to the culture in which he grew up, nothing prevents him from being 
tought how to run a VCR or perform complex planting/irrigation cycles
(or even a Prated PB teaching himself quantum physics, and improving
 on current theories - he may express them in terms of spirits instead
 of sub-atomic particles, but he COULD do so!)
(Prated's do not learn, they KNOW)

yes, enough people in concerted effort will cause VCRs to fail.
this is exactly what occured in the early (pre-cyber) Papacy.
their agents spread the word that tech was bad, people began 
to refuse it, and the TECH dropped
(the process was speeded up by the DD, but the principle is there -
 even a DD must have "believers" in an area to make it change reality)
it is just hard to reduce an axiom, because it works, and most people 
will believe their eyes. the loss of CE's MAGIC was probably due to 
the rapid advances of tech making magic less efficient, and the social
mores making "magic" hard to come by
(indicating that an axiom can "atrophy" if there are not enough people
 using it at its current level)

dave "Eo1 - the ultimate fascist" oakes
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: marcogan@student.anu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Aztec Empire
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 20:29:41 GMT

>
>The World Laws of the Aztec Empire will be in the May issue of
Infiniverse.

Great. Now, does somebdy want to fill in a poor man who can't afford to buy
adventures and who doesn't subscribe to Infiniverse, and tell me what the
Aztec Empire is? 

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who speak, do not know   	       	Mark Cogan
 Those who know, do not speak"  	       	marcogan@student.anu.edu.au

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: what ARE axioms? (who cares how they work)
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:04:03 GMT

once again, mr rose has brought something to my attention,
and i think it will fuel the axiom fire for a little longer...

[dave mentions axiom 0, and i reply]

well, i personally  feel that reality it self begins to break down
around an axiom level of  3-4, and that even the living become
a contradiction at 0/0/0/0.

tech needs to be above 0 for biochemical reactions
social needs to be above 0 for hierarchy of atoms, other structures
magic needs to be above 0 for random chance (evolutionary need)
spirit needs to be above 0 for "life force"

anyone of these might be high enough to make up for the others
(the will of Lanala created the LL, not random chemical reactions)
(a tech 25/spirit 0 might be a cosm of souless automatons, etc)
but straight zeros is true nothingness

dave "game over, man" oakes
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: A can of worms to detonate
Date: 11 Apr 92 02:53:38 GMT
Organization: New York University

Michael P Collins <mc7f+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>I'll regret this tomorrow, but anyway...

>Doesn't the Ayslish Law Of Observation make Quantomechanical systems
>contradictory in Aysle?
>--Evil Incarnate

  Rather the contrary, I should think.
--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:40:27 GMT

somebody with no name (and a longer screen) writees:
 ! A possible explanation is that the Darkness Device in each cosm has a 'passive'
 ! detection mode -- every time something is done in that cosm that exceeds its
 ! preset Axiom level is detected and then countered (well, not always...).
 ! However, there is a problem with the Social Axiom -- if someone is not allowed
 ! to think something without possible creating a contradiction, then it means
 ! that the ability exists of the Darkness Device to read the minds of those
 ! inside the cosm. But this also means that a Darkness Device could read a mind
 ! to determine the persons's intentions. IMHO, this goes to far. My opinion on
 ! this is that a character can think whatever they want without causing any
 ! problems, but runs the risk of creating a contradiction if they try to
 ! communicate these ideas to others. 

actually, all of this "axiom limiting" is done by the Everlaw of One,
which IS omnicient, omnipotent, and everpresent
(since it is the tool of the people who created the TORG-verse, and 
 all that resides in it, in the first place...)

 ! BTW, notice that there are no psionics in Torg? Wonder if that is because they
 ! couldn't think of any non-bogus way to prevent them from operating in any cosm,
 ! regardless of the Axioms?

as someone has pointed out, they are in the Space Gods,
and they have some truly bogus restrictions
(i feel that social and magic should be the only limits, maybe just social)

dave "martial arts are really a psionic discipline" oakes
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re: Axiom levels, etc.
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:22:15 GMT

Sean Malloy(malloy@nprdc.navy.mil) replies:
 ! The Tech chart is incredibly Eurocentric in nature, and has nothing to
 ! do with the laws of physics per se, but define what will and will not
 ! work or be believed on the basis of when the advances came in Western
 ! history. Was the Tech axiom of Earth higher in China than everywhere
 ! else until the Renaissance? The MesoAmerican cultures (Aztec, Maya,
 ! Toltec, Inca) displayed Tech 11 medical skills and extensive
 ! irrigation and acqueduct systems (Tech 10), but never developed the
 ! wheel as a form of transportation (Tech 5) or metal armor (Tech 8).

i will agree with you on the eeurocentric, but that doesnt make it wrong.
in TORG terms, China might have pushed the local boundries up,
or the backwards europeans might just have been uneducated
(you cant build tech 13 with stone knives and bear skins)
(if i remember, some alchemists had done gunpowder, just not good powder)
as far as the Incans, they could have easily upped the tech for medical 
and irrigation, and they didnt use metal for armor for religious reasons.
as for the wheel, some peopple believe that they had psionic/magic
methods for moving heavy loads, why bother with the wheel?
(the choice between doing the work physically, or hand waving - 
 seems easy to me)

and in TORG, it is quite possible that the MesoAmericans were acting
under the axioms of the Space Gods as well!

 ! > example. Living Land physics may not work in the same way. I can see
 ! > an Edeinos refuting your argument: "Energy? Mass? Huh? It's a bow -
 ! > and all bows inflict blessed painful sensations!"
 ! 
 ! Okay, if you want me to render it into Tech 7 equivalents: A bent
 ! stick will try to straighten out, and will push against anything
 ! keeping it bent; a thicker stick will try harder, and will push
 ! harder. A bow uses this push to throw an arrow; if the bow pushes
 ! harder, the arrow will be thrown harder. Bows are made from sticks;
 ! so, to get a bow that throws arrows harder, you use a thicker stick
 ! when you make the bow.

try it this way
"bend stick, stick bends back. make bow, push arrow."
at no point does the primative say "more stick, more power"
(and since really thick sticks wont bend at all, he may think
 "more stick, less power")
he really has no way of gradiating the force of the stick,
so all sticks that bend bend equally (at tech 7)

tech 8 is the point someone realizes
"big man lift more, big stick push harder"
and builds a better bow

dave "ahk ahk eek eek tooky tooky" oakes
From: snark@bmerh327.BNR.CA (Eric Nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: questions about magic system
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:30:13 GMT
Reply-To: snark@bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fiber Systems Development

Im new to the torg system, and I have a few questions about
magic....

   o  Manipulation of spells, I have noticed (in the asyle sourcebook)
      that you can apply axioms like 'cast time'.  What is the effect
      of using one of these axioms and where can I find spell manipulation
      rules?  (for example, if I wanted to reduce the cast time of 
      an existing spell, could I manipulate it after learning it from
      a grimore?)

   o  I have been trying to create a spell that changes a person into a
      spirit.  What I have so far is the following:

           pattern:  folk
           mech:     life
           result:   entity

           effect into multiple attributes: strength, toughness, dex
     
      what would this do by itself, and what other things would need to
      be done in order to get the following abilitys in the spirit shape:

           unsubstantial form (partially invisible and non-solid)
           flying
           glowing eyes
           

   o  For permanence in spells, the minimum axiom level is 13 (from the 
      asyle sourcebook).  Is this axiom level the level of the caster's
      reality, the level of the current reality, or the level of the spell?

   o  When buying a spell, the caster spends a possibility - how do ord
      spell casters gain spells.  When creating a spell do you also have
      to spend the possibility?

   o  Can spells affect possibility pools (i.e. a drain possibliltys spell)?

   o  Does the magical axiom of a realm affect the ability of its people
      in magic?  I have a shaman (core earth - magical axiom 7 or so), and
      I seem to have a 4-case contradiction with every spell, but is there
      any other effect... 


               Thanks in Advance,

Eric Nelson (snark@bnr.ca)       "'Tis better to be vile, than vile esteemed"
FWP OSI AIF for OAM&P                          -- Will, sonet 121
This message is the mine, and endorsed by the evil twin of my employer
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: cluther@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: Temple of Rek Stalek?
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 20:18:15 GMT

albert@chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones) writes:

>	Ks. Jim posted a review of it, but since it's a Living Land
>adventure, and for all the discussion about the LL that's gone on
>recently, it's not a popular cosm at all.  

I don't recall this review.

-- 
Clay W. Luther                  cluther@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
System Manager                  Center for Network Neuroscience
University of North Texas       PO Box 5218 Denton, Texas 76203
817/565-3896,3472               aka. Malraux@GodNet (Bushashuru!)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Clay Luther <cluther@morticia.cnns.unt.edu>
Subject: Testing
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:24:10 GMT

Testing

-- 
Clay W. Luther                  cluther@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
System Manager                  Center for Network Neuroscience
University of North Texas       PO Box 5218 Denton, Texas 76203
817/565-3896,3472               aka. Malraux@GodNet (Bushashuru!)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: tnev2@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: Re: shapeshifters again... 
Reply-To: tnev2@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:24:02 GMT

In article <gatemail1.0b1031343306957@morticia>, Jeff Sullivan <jas@ISI.EDU> writes:
>
>Johann scribes:
>> Anyway, to
>> the point.  Werewolves are indeed rather obnoxiously damage resistant, but
>> even they start having problems absorbing all of the damage flying around in
>> that cosm.  IMHO, the weapons and armor from Tharkhold and the Cyberpapacy
>> have been inflated so much that PCs are almost forced to use similar gear, no
>> matter what it does to their character conception, merely to stay alive.
>> This is silly, and the group that I've been playing with has been discussing
>> some sort of mutual disarmament pact.  I.e. throw those GodBeams out the
>> window.  How has anyone else dealt with this problem.
>
>Well, at least in the CyberPapacy, if you're going to play in the big
>leagues, you have to have the right size bat ;-).  if the other people
>are running around in armor and bristling with weapons, if you don't
>want to be doing that, you have 3 choices:
>
>1. Go play in the Living Land.
>
>2. Play in CP, but avoid combat.  Actively.
>
>3. Suit up and step up to the plate.
>
>You shouldn't change the cosm (unless all of the players want to do
>that) just because you don't like parts of it; that's what the cosm
>*is*!
>
>jas
>
A good GM could help make this work without having to drasticlly alter the
cosm by providing adventures where combat isn't the point of the game.
I've taken an unarmoured cyberdecker through a great Tharkold mystery and
lived.  Our GM just used the really nasty stuff as an overshadowing threat
instead of constantly throwing us into combat with demons every act.
If you want to hack, blast, and slay, try playing Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
A good adventure in any roleplaying game should require more detective
work, social interaction, and trickery (among other things) than combat.
I like a good fire fight as much as the next guy, but too much combat, like 
too many rules lawyers, ruins a campagn.

		-CJ
From: jogle@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Pure/Mixed/Dominant Zone Question (New GM asking)
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:28:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: zia.1992Apr8.232807.23090
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM

albert@chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones) writes:

>	Nope, they don't explicitly say so, but most of Core Earth is 
>dominant, not pure, so non-CE characters will have problems if they 
>disconnect, but they aren't totally hosed.

I think in an early Infiniverse they do state that most of Core Earth
is dominant, not pure.

-- 
Kansas Jim (Jim Ogle, Torg guru)
jogle@nrao.edu (NRAO-VLBA, Socorro New Mexico)
"I'd be apathetic if I cared."
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg