From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Adults, Children and sex
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 07:14:28 GMT

In article <q3knmla.boserj@netcom.com> boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser) writes:
>I agree.  This thread started because some of us find the laws
>to be ineffective, inappropriate, and based on false information
>and assumptions.  Examples were given, showing that though there
>was a potential for harm, there was also a potential for good.

What examples?  (I suppose I should go back and reread all the posts,
but here is what I remember without doing that.)  I've read Chapin
talk of two examples where the younger children approached teenagers:
(1) where the five year old fellated his older brother; and (2) where
the two 10 year olds sexually harassed their babysitter by threatening
to say that she molested them.  Chapin also wrote of being approached
sexually at least a couple of times when he was a child and he said
no and the adults honored his no, and left him alone.  Wharfie (I
think) tells of having sex with an older woman (ten years older?) when
he was 15 or so.

I have yet to hear of any stories of people who were having sex with
an adult at 5, 6, 7, or 8 tell how positive those experiences were.

I've said repeatedly that I've a few men talk of being 12 or 13 and
having sexual experiences with adult men and being happy about it.

>Of course harm occurs.  Abuse is a very wide-spread and
>tragic problem.  But it isnt the act thats abusive.

The act can very well be abusive.  To be sodomized or forced to
perform fellatio can hurt, especially when you're a young child.

To me, what you're saying is that if a person is raped, her/his only
trauma is the lack of consent.  Talk to some rape survivors and see
what they have to say about the pain of being raped.  

>Our laws try to define acts that cause abuse.  And they dont work.
>Those same acts can be loving and beautiful regardless of age,
>and acts taht some consider harmless can ruin a person's life.
>If you need examples of this, you should look to your acquiantances.

A five year old being subjected to vaginal or anal intercourse is not
loving or beautiful.  And yes, despite attempts to portray some of us
as sexual Puritans who hate the very idea of orgasms, vaginal and/or
anal intercourse can be loving and beautiful.

I'm curious as to where you think it stops.  If a ten year approaches
an adult for touching, hugging, even mutual masturbation, is it fine
for the adult to suggest: "You'll love it when I perform oral sex on
you."?

>So, while we are blindly ruining lives with our laws, what are we
>encouraging?  We are encouraging that rapists kill their victims
>so they cant talk.  We are encouraging molesters to use terror to
>keep their victims silent.  We are encouraging those who are victims
>to feel guilty, because when the events are metnioned their entire
>life falls under scrutiny.

What are you saying?  Rapists kill victims so they can't talk and it's
the fault of laws that make rape a felony?

Of course molesters use terror to keep their victims silent.  They
often use terror to get their victims to engage in sex.  If the child
loves the adult, the adult can use that love to have sex with the
child and to keep the child silent.

As far as putting victims' lives under scrutiny, do you realize how
much more scrutiny there will be if we assume that any five year old
who engages in fellatio does it because s/he thought of it her/himself
and wanted to try it out?  If you think rape trials with adult victims
are nasty, what do you think trials with child victims will be like?
So you're 6 years old and you learn you were asking for it because you
wiggled your butt when you sat on some adult's lap?

>Incorrect.  There are many studies that show sexual development
>as a child occurs at a much younger age than previously considered.
>Practially right out of the hospital many babies start touching thier
>genetals, and the boy-girl gossip and dirty jokes and silly
>whispers and blushes..  its all part of natural growth.  So is the
>allure and power of adult sexuality.  This is very normal.

I've read studies that report infants of several hours old show
vaginal lubrication in females and erections in males.  Does that mean
the infants are sexual, that they want sex?  Maybe here's the problem.
I can see where these infants are sexual (or are hardwired for sexual
responses), but I can't by any stretch of the imagination say that
these infants want sex.  

>We have given you arguments saying that some events do not
>involve coercion, and you repeatedly sweep them under the
>rug.

The problem for me is this.  I was sexually abused starting when I was
4 until I was 8.  I know the injuries I suffered because of that when
it was happening.  I know the effects it's had on my life as a
teenager and now as an adult.  I know many people who were sexually
abused as kids and the harmful effects it's had in their lives.  I
have not yet heard one adult tell of anything positive or how they
approached adults sexually when they were five.