HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Tangent:  Song of Solomon
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:54:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Sep2.182303.27209@wdl.loral.com> trw@spl1.spl.loral.com (Tim R Witort) writes:
>In article <1992Sep2.154313.11675@cbnews.cb.att.com>, ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman) writes:
>
>|> I *like* the fact that a poem about physical love found its way into
>|> Scriptures, and I very much appreciate the sanctity and esteem that
>|> God seems to hold for that kind of love.  You can read it as an
>|> allegory if you want to.  But I like the down-and-dirty parts just
>|> fine, and I like the fact that God considers them holy.
>
>   "Down-and-dirty"? I never considered this type of God given love
>and intercourse to be dirty in any way.... probably just taking your
>figure of speech the wrong way (I hope).

No, I don't think it's dirty either.  But some of it is fairly graphic,
albeit in a poetic way, and I think some Christians would prefer not
to see the book as an intimate portrayal of physical love between a 
man and a woman.  If someone equates "sex" with "dirty" (which I
don't), then I suppose The Song of Solomon could be considered to
be a dirty book.  But, like you, I consider this type of love to
be given by God and blessed by God in marriage.  

I was responding specifically to the idea that the Song of Solomon
should primarily be read as an allegory of Christ and the Church.
I can't speak for those who currently hold such a view, but I can
at least say that after having read Origen, I believe that he 
proposed this interpretation because he was fundamentally an
uptight, squeamish man who never got over the notion that the 
material world was somehow inherently sinful.  I'm *not* suggesting 
that others hold this view - only that the originator of the 
interpretation held this view.  

Me?  I think sex within marriage is a gift and a delight, and that
there's nothing dirty about it.  And yep, that's what I think The
Song of Solomon is about.  

>-- Tim

Andy Whitman
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio
att!cblpn!ajw  or
ajw@cblpn.att.com
From: mr-vince@bu-pub.bu.edu (Vincent Huffaker)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Pray For Rain and Vince Ebo - buy!!!
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:59:03 GMT
Organization: Boston University

New Christian Artists:

I found this disc at the store by the new group,
Pray For Rain.  I like it!  They're sortof what
you would expect if you combined Phil Keaggy with 
The Choir.  Lead singer is also the lead guitarist 
is also the lead songwriter.  Mostly acoustic with 
unique melodies (pretty upbeat, though - lest anyone
be turned off by the word "acoustic").  

Then there's Vince Ebo.  High-energy danceable funk 
and Tommy Simms plays the bass on five or six of the 
songs (need I say more?).  What can I say but "Wow!".  
By the way, has anyone made a Tommy Simms anthology 
(a complete list of songs which he's helped write)?  

On a separate note, if anyone still wants a copy
of the Cornerstone Warnke article, let me know.
I can e-mail one to you.

ttfn,
Vince
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Susan Ashton & "No Compromise"
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:31:23 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Has anyone heard Susan Ashton's new release, "Angels of Mercy"?
What did you think of it?  I heard her first one and thought a couple
of songs showed a lot of promise but the rest was eh.  Is this one
any better?  Seems like she has loads of potential.

Also, I know "No Compromise" (the new version, a collection of
Keith Green tunes by different Christian artists) came up in this group
a while back ... I'm not personally a big fan of Keith Green's music
as performed by Keith Green (nothing personal here, KG fans; I have loads
of respect for the man's ministry) but I like a lot of the people on
this album.  Anybody out there able to recommend it under those circumstances?
Think I'd enjoy it anyway?

Thanks.


-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu

Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.
            -- J. Danforth Quayle  
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: jittlov@gumby.cs.caltech.edu (Mike Jittlov)
Subject: John Massari's Music on multi-network special!
Summary: John Massari's Music on multi-network special!
Keywords: music, synth, composer, genius, Massari
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 22:04:42 GMT

Attention and Alert!

To Music-Lovers everywhere, concerning the further sonic
adventures of one John Massari - who is a lookalike for his
hero-figure Frank Zappa, along with sharing a kindred spirit,
idealism, moustache, and nose.  To wit:

JOHN MASSARI, who co-starred as a Musical Genius (against his
protests, and under the pseudonym of "Steve Shostakovich") in
the critically-rave-reviewed action-comedy-adventure-special-
effects-laden fantasy and satire-on-Hollywood-and-the-System
feature film <gasp>, "The Wizard of Speed and Time" - and who
contributed much of the movie's music score - will once again
grace the airwaves of the entire North American Continent with
his most recent work, in:

      "SCARED SILENT - Exposing and Ending Child Abuse"
                 - Hosted by Oprah Winfrey -

A nation-wide simulcast Television Premiere, airing this Friday,
September 4, 1992, 10pm (9pm central), on CBS, NBC, _and_ PBS
- with an encore presentation on ABC, Sunday, September 6, 1992,
10pm (9pm central)!  This is the first primetime non-news show
ever to be aired by three broadcast networks simultaneously!

    John Massari composed all music for this TV special
    John Massari conducted all music for this TV special
    John Massari produced all music for this TV special
    John Massari performed all music for this TV special*
    John is very happy with all music for this TV special

  * with special thanks to John's friends, pianist Neil Posner
    and recording engineer Avi Hochberg.

Any immodesty in the above is due to the immense pride of this
note-poster.  John is the Prince of Humility :]

[Note 1:  the show's Executive Producer and Writer, Arnold
Shapiro, is _not_ connected with Shapiro-Glickenhaus Ent -
the corp >:p that is currently misdistributing our film, and
doing so without my authorization]

[Note 2:  info appreciated on Mr Z's mailing address, so I can
send him a free VHS of the movie he almost invested in - and
sagaciously did not]

[Note 3:  200 pardons if this is the wrong Newsgroup - I'm new
to the Net, just tapping all these keys & hoping for the best]


Views/News/Blames/Flames:
________________________________________ ___._`.*.'_._ ________
 Mike Jittlov - Wizard, etc       .   . +  * .o   o.* `.`. +.  
  Hollywood, CA 90026-2714       '   *  . ' ' |\^/|  `. * .  *
jittlov@gumby.cs.caltech.edu  (: May All Your  \V/  Good Dreams
  <& alt.fan.mike-jittlov>    and Fine Wishes  /_\  Come True:)
============================================= _/ \_ ===========
From: rich.bellacera@amail.amdahl.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: re: Song of Solomon
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:34:09 GMT
Return-Path: <amail.amdahl.com!rich.bellacera@juts.ccc.amdahl.com>

Hmmmm.   Seems like another debate is underway.  I don't see the fuss,
personally.  The Song of Solomon, Song of Songs or Canticles or whatever you
wish to call it is a very lovely work of literature and scripture.  It is
indeed the story of a man's "sexual love and desire" for a woman.  Some even
speculate that the Shalumite bride, the object of Solomon's desire was Black.
This of course relating to the region she is from.  Imagine that a Jew and a
Black marrying.  Gee, God was Bold (and still is! -PTL).   Personally I think
it's people who have the prejudices and hang-ups (not God), but I digress.

The story can also, quite naturally, be seen as an allegory of Christ and his
Church.  The New Testament repeatedly speaks of a marriage between the two.

I also believe (even stronger) that is is a natural allegory of God's intimate
love for his people.  God called Israel "Hep-zibah" (sp?) which means "my
delight is in her" and says that He & Israel are "beulah" ("married").

I see nothing dirty about sexual love.  Infact I see the allegorical
relevance, sexually speaking, to be a beautiful illustration of how strong
and deep that love is for his people.  He not only was to love us from afar,
but he wants to be down-right intimate with us.  I hardly see myself as a
woman, but I can indeed understand how sexual intercourse is a "type" of
intimacy that brings two fleshes together to make "one flesh".  The same
aplies to me "spiritually."  I see God as having "spiritual intercourse" with
my spirit (no flesh mind you).  The dictionary defines "intercourse" as
communication; an interchange between persons.  I see God as being "in me" and
I being "in God"...hense we have become "one."

The sexual nature of the Song of Solomon is very important indeed and should
be understood as "sexual" not just allegorical.  The love that Solomon had for
the Shalumite is likened unto the love that Christ has for his Church and the
Love that God has for his chosen people.  Deep abiding and intimate.

Just some thoughts.

-Rich
From: rmbenn@david.wheaton.edu (Richard M. Bennema)
Subject: New MWS
Keywords: terrible, non-christian, deceptive
Organization: Wheaton College, IL
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:10:27 GMT

STINKS!

Musically, it could be his worst album in quite a while.  You would think that
he could afford a couple more instruments than his nifty keyboard. i 2 (EYE)
sounded much better.  Not like I've heard "Friends" enough (sure, it's a great
song but a billion times is enough), but his remake isn't an improvement.  In
fact, I like the original better.

Style-wise, it's a good pop album.  He's gonna make a lot of money with this
thing.  Which seems to be the only important thing to him anymore.

Lyrics, terrible.  The discussion of this album should be moved to another
board because it's anything but Christian.  He tries to get us to believe that
humanistic love and friendships can save the world.  WRONG!  Been tried and
sung about by people better than him.  He has every opportunity to present the
gospel, but he either backs out or uses vague pronouns so that only Christians
can understand what he's talking about.  Now I can handle just about
everything, but that.  This album is deceptive.  The album title and the song
titles are gonna make Christians think that he's coming back strong, when in
fact he's weaker than ever.  What does that mean?  He's gonna be able to trick
both audiences (Christian and secular) into buying his album, each thinking
that he made this album for them.

This is a totally non-Christian album.  My roommate named a couple secular
bands (and not cross-overs (ie, non-Christians)) who portrayed God in a
positive light more than Smitty did.  With 11 songs, I consider this to be a
secular album with a bonus Christian song (Cross of Gold).  But even that's a
joke because you can't take him seriously because you're wondering the same
thing about him.  Good way to ruin a good song.  Should have let Steve Camp or
Michael Card do it.  I'm just glad we got this album for free.


				I miss the way,

				Richard M. Bennema

P.S.  Sorry about the flame, but I strongly feel that this album deserves it.
Believe it or not, but I liked MWS before he wimped out.
--
rmbenn@david.wheaton.edu
Richard M. Bennema		"The brain can be seen as a complex machine,
Computer Science/Math		 like a gooey computer."
Wheaton College 			-Robert C. Solomon
From: smith@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Roy Smith jr)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: sarcasm...encouraging..music!
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:37:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Sep3.153753.8772
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

In article <1992Sep2.171653.6285@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook) writes:
->
->
->Let's then, go on to Galatians 4:29 "Let no unwholesome word proceed from your
->mouth, but _only such a word as is good for edification according to the need
->of the moment, that it may GIVE GRACE to those who hear."  Now, does sarcasm

just for the benefit of all those people who may have gone to underline
that verse and not found it -- it is Ephesians 4:29.  if you do underline
and/or memorize verses please consider this one.  it has convicted me and
proved very difficult to live up to.  we are so prone to tearing down
instead of being encouragers and building up.  Proverbs 27:17.

->We should all seek to build others up, not tear them down.
->
to bring it back to music again... wes king's song _Sticks and Stones_
deals with the issue of how much damage the tongue can do.  it is a great
song musically and very challenging lyrically.

->Noel Estabrook

-jim
-- 
 Jim Smith	 o   o	 Student Consultant	        /   o  /\ /\
 jrsjr@nwu.edu	   <	 ACNS			    /  /   /  / |/ |
 708.869.8586	 \___/	 Northwestern University    \_/   /  /  /  /    ez.
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: mjenkins@alfred.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson)
Subject: Re: Accountability in CCM
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:09:37 GMT


>Okay, so what should be done when it's the record label itself who is doing
>the sinning? I have heard that Word is actually a pretty money hungry bunch
>of people. That is why they sold out to Epic records. A friend of mine now
>looks very closely at what label an artist records under before he considers
>purchasing an album from that artist.

OK...one thing at a time here.

First of all, you *have heard* that Word is money hungry. From that
you make the blanket statement, "That is why they sold out to Epic
records." 

A couple of points here (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) but it
sounds like you are merely repeating something a friend told you (Word
is money hungry) and came to the conclusion that that is the reason
they sold to Epic. You don't know either of those to be fact, merely
your opinion.

Now...as much as we all hate it, the Chrisitan music industry is a
business. I don't know why Word sold to Epic, but I'm not sure I want
to make the generalized negative statement that they did it just for
the money. Perhaps they did, but as I say, this is a business. These
people are not here to lose money.

Further...in my personal dealings with Word Canada, I have found some
of their people to be rude and inconsiderate. But I will not make
blanket statements about the entire company, even though I have my
opinions and suspicions.

Second big point: I don't agree with your friend who looks at the
record label first before buying an album. To quote Steve Taylor, that
is "Guilty by Association." We don't know why a particular artist
chose to sign, or continues to sign with a particular label. Perhaps
that was the better paying deal, or perhaps that one label gave more
creative freedom than the other label, or allowed for more albums to
be recorded. Or maybe the previous label merged with the current one,
whatever. I didn't read in any deep meaning when Petra moved from
StarSong to Dayspring. They changed labels, maybe it was just time to
move on. I'd be far more concerned about the artists personal walk,
testimony, lyrics, musical quality, etc. than the label she/he signed with.

That's like saying "I always check to see which church Christian's go
to before I become friends with them." You don't know their motives,
and you shouldn't be judging them on ungrounded suspicions.

So, if a Christian record label is engaged in un-Christian business
practices or whatever, that's one thing...but artist signed to those
labels are not necessarily guilty just because the label they're
signed to is doing something wrong.

Just my thoughts.

Michael
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: sbb1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Shay B. Berthelson)
Subject: Re: TANGENT: Is sarcasm appropriate for Christians?
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:34:25 GMT

On the subject of Sarcasim.

First I really must wonder if this is the correct group for this conversation.

I don't know what the definition of sarcastic is for most people.  I am a 
"Sarcastic" person.  But a majority of what i say is in fun or jest.  The
statement that someone in an earlier post made about saying what you mean 
struck me s kind of funny, because most people are overly honest when they
are "Kidding".  This has been made clear to me through people bing sarcastic  
and my being sarcastic.  Sasrcasm is another way at viewing a truth.  That is
why it is funny, Because it is true.  Now in reference to a basis for and 
sarcasm.  If you are kidding around with some one and they get their fellings 
hurt or can think less of you as a person because of something you say, then
you probably went to far.  
	I will always be a kidder and probably always have a "sarcastic" tone
to my kidding.  But I make it a habit to pay attention to responses, and am
very careful to not go over the limit.  
	Sarcasm as a tool is great as with steve taylor.  But he wasn't    
blatantly sarcastic, as much as satirical.  Sarcasm has an element of
beligerence (Spelling ?) and I don't think steve was being beligerent.  But
there again he used his "sarcasm" to voice a Truth.  
	Basically what i am saying is that its OK to be sarcastic.  But
don't mix it up with telling some one off or getting a bunch of dislike
off of your chest and making it better by saying your kidding.


Shay B 

--
******************************************************************************
** Shay B. Berthelson ******   Don't call me WHITE ***************************
** sbb1@Ra.MsState.EDU *****   I am Danish American **************************
******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: mjenkins@alfred.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson)
Subject: Re: Word suspends Warnke sales
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:48:05 GMT

In <1992Aug31.193706.8641@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> alan@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Alan S. Mazer) writes:

>In article <mjenkins.715013070@cunews> mjenkins@alfred.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson) writes:
>>Word pulled Warnke's stuff a month after the Lexington, KY,
>>Herald-Leader disclosed that the IRS revoked the tax-exempt status of
>>Warnke's ministry last fall, a ruling under appeal. The newspaper
>>raised questions about ministry practices and finances, luxury perks,
>>high salaries, etc. paid to Warnke when his ministry--little more than
>>a telephone referral service--was ailing.

>Everyone posting seems to think Word is making some sort of judgment call
>here.  I suspect that Word has financial/legal reasons for looking hard at
>their contracts with Warnke given that he is no longer tax exempt.  They 
>may have somehow been taking advantage of that in their contracts and this
>may have thrown them into legal jeopardy, too.  That's my guess.

Judgement call?!?!?  I'm surprised Word didn't cancel Warnke's
contract outright as soon as this surfaced! Judgement call?!?!? They
supported him fully for the first month, until it was revealed his
tax-exempt status was gone.

Judgement call!?!?! (Sorry if I keep harping on this...its just I
think neither Word nor Warnke has used any judgement at all in this
debacle.) Word has now done a complete flip-flop on the situation.

I'd say they're in legal trouble too...and I bet they're praying that
no one sues them and Warnke for perpetuating this massive fraud.

Just my thoughts, rabid as they may be on this subject....

Michael

>-- 
> 
>-- Alan                        # Mountain Dew and doughnuts...
>   ..!ames!elroy!alan          # because breakfast is the most important meal
>   alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov     # of the day.
From: snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Which music amoral??
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:47:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NAVAL SURFACE WARFARE CENTER

I wrote:
So called christian music has its problems (have you heard about
Amy's new video?)
 
andrew.j.whitman replies:
>  Is that the one where she dances or makes love with the guy who may
>  or may not be her husband, .....   Yeah,  we've heard about it.

Humor, you know, ackowledging zillions of megabytes, mustn't omit the
smiley I see :-)

>But I'm curious why you would view this song as particularly offensive.  
>Ice T isn't the first and he won't be the last musician to advocate violence. 

Well gee pardner, I said I hadn't been in a record store in a long
time, but let me see:
  Killing people is a bad thing (very low murderer rate in
  heavenly census if you get my drift) and I will admit to feeling
  that advocating killing Policemen is *bad*.

>For me, "Cop Killer" doesn't fly.  I have no desire to support it.
>But I have every intention of supporting Ice T's right to be mad
>and to criticize those in power. 

Murder is VERY STRONG CRITICISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>Your salvation may vary :-)  
>And apparently does :-) 

If I understand you right you are pushing grace and mercy much further
than I would want to.

===================================================================
From: trw@spl1.spl.loral.com (Tim R Witort)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Accountability in CCM
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:37:50 GMT
Organization: Loral Software Productivity Laboratory

In article <87307@netnews.upenn.edu>, crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
|> In article <mjenkins.715002506@cunews> mjenkins@alfred.carleton.ca (Michael J
|> Should Christian musicians be held accountable by their recording companies
|> in addition to their churches?  What guidelines should said companies use,
|> if so?  If a musician gets a divorce, for example, is that grounds for 
|> canceling a recording contract?  What about an affair?  Driving under the
|> influence?  Lying?  Gossiping?  In other words, which sins would be
|> deemed acceptable, and which wouldn't?  

   Oh, that's easy. None are acceptable. %\)

|> Lauren Crawford

-- Tim

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
; Tim Witort   |  If you'll take one look at the Savior, my friend, ;
; SPL Loral    |  you'll find His arms open wide. You'll find His   ;
;              |  arms open wide. -- Take 6                         ;
;-------------------------------------------------------------------;
;       My opinions are my own - not Loral's. Go figure!            ;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
From: gritter@cs.purdue.EDU (Carl R. Gritter)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Michael Card on tour with Phil Keaggy???
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:12:34 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University

In article  <1992Sep2.141552.10441@den.mmc.com> jerdman@evans.den.mmc.com (ERDMAN) writes:
>It is true that Phil and Michael will be touring together.  They are scheduled
>to be in Denver sometime in October.

Great!

Does anyone have Michael/Phil's tour schedule?  Usually Michael Card
(via Creative Trust) sends around a newsletter, but I haven't received
it yet.

Thanks,
Carl
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman)
Subject: Re: Mark Heard
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:53:43 GMT

In article <67669@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray) writes:
>I don't know if this has been posted yet, so i'll do it.
>
>Mark Heard died of heart failure on Sunday, August 16.  He was buried in 
>Macon, GA on August 19.

No, it hadn't been posted, Jerry.  I've been waiting, hoping, and praying
that this wouldn't happen.  

So, Mark has gone to be with the Lord.  I'm glad for him, glad that 
all his doubts are removed, and that now he can see God face to face.
But Mark did a better job than any other musician I know of 
communicating what it meant to see through the mirror dimly and to 
still live a life of faith, and I'm going to miss him.  

I hate death.  

"Now and then the criminal in my skin lets out a sigh
He'd like to think he's innocent, but he cannot tell a lie,
Your truth is like a knife
And I'm crying again."

Me too.

Andy Whitman
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio
att!cblpn!ajw  or
ajw@cblpn.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian