HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Date: 31 Dec 92 08:46:17 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec27.161716.19989@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>
>You should not criticize moslem's behavior, whatever they do is selfdefense,
>and whatever the aggressive israelis do is criminal.  They brutally and
>sadistically killed Nissim Toledano, it's OK.  They attack children
>in the streets, its OK. They leave bombs at supermarkets, it is OK.
>No one is expected to fight back. As Arafat said:

Vice versa.  You should not criticize jewish behavior, whatever they do is
selfdefense, and whatever the aggressive moslems do is criminal.  They
brutally and sadistically killed Sheikh Mussawi, it's OK.  They attack
children in the streets, its OK.  They leave bombs in homes, it is OK.
No one is expected to fight back.  As Yitzhak Rabin said:

"The first priority is to use force, might, beatings." 

PEACE AND TERROR DON'T MIX.  YITZHAK RABIN AND ISRAEL 
CAN FLUSH THE TOILETE WITH THEIR PEACE EFFORT CRAP.
THESE PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN DESROYING PALESTINIANS.

If Israel was so peace-loving and merciful, it would release Sheikh Ahmed
as well as not allow their Sergeant-Major to die at the hands of the
"terrorists".

Anisa

	"The rejection of the occupation by the people in the
	territories is so strong that this problem is not
	going to go away.  The problem is not how to quell
	disturbances in a humane manner, but how to get at the
	root cause - it is not a problem that can be solved by
	beating, or straving people into submission."
		United Nations Undersecretary Marrack Goulding
		(January 22, 1988)


	"We now have the anguish of power instead of the anguish
	of powerlessness, which we had for so long...The prophets
	came to remind the kings that they lived under God, with
	a system of values.  The uprising makes me both less
	optimistic and more.  Less because it feeds the hard-liners
	on both sides.  More because it is so obvious that the
	occupation is untenable, it can't go on indefinitely.  The
	young Palestinians won't accept it, and there is no reason
	why they should.  It is not the size of the country but
	its values, its quality of life, that define its Jewishness
	and its moral integrity.  That was true in ancient times, and
	it is now."
		Yehezkel Landau, Israeli Religious Peace Movement
		(Quoted in the New York Times, Jan. 24, 1988)
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jordanian Palestinians (was: israel &
Date: 3 Jan 93 10:12:16 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Originator: michaelp@conway.ifi.uio.no


In article <1i392tINN9jq@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> In article 9768@nysernet.org, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
> >aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
> 
> >>In article <1992Dec31.214451.20569@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
> 
> >>>The conditions were that all the Arabs who remained in Israel in 1948
> >>>became Israeli citizens.
> 
> >>You mean the ones who didn't flee for their lives?  The hundreds of
> >>thousands who were not forced out into neighboring countries and refugee
> >>camps in Lebanon ...
> 
> >I mean the ones who listened to the Jews and remained, safely, rather
> >than the ones who listened to their leaders and abandoned their homes
> >in the expectation that they would quickly return over the dead bodies
> >of their Jewish neighbors.
> 
> I will not bother refuting this silly myth again.   However, let's hear
> your answer to this:
> 
>   If no Arabs fled their homes in 1948, then Israel (at the 1949
>   Armistice boundaries) would have had an Arab majority.  In that
>   circumstance, would you have granted them citizenship of Israel?
> 
You are into something here, Brendan. But try to discuss this one:
	The U.N had a resolution in 1947, about deviding 
	the land of palestine (Palesitna  Eretz israel) into 2 parts
	whith respectively jewish/arab majorities. The jews said 
	"yes" and the arabs said "no". This was then a case of 
	war.

> >Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
> 
> Brendan.
> 
Michael
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: deportaion
Date: 26 Dec 1992 17:27:47 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


From: wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich)

>Funny, I don't recall seeing any posts from you shedding your
>crocodile tears when Kuwait expelled over 100,000 Palestinian
>residents after the Gulf war.  Mind you, these were not people
>inciting others to murder like the Hamas boys.  They were kicked out
>just for being Palestinian.  And not a peep from you, or any of the
>hippocrates at the United Nations who routinely ignore Arab civil
>rights abuse.

>But I guess thats okay.  Arabs are allowed to kill, or expel one
>another by your logic.  You only scream when Israel is involved.

However there is a difference here.  In Kuwait, Palestinians were
not kicked from their homeland.  In Israel, Palestinians were kicked
from Gaza Strip and West Bank.  

If some jews argue Gaza Strip and West Bank are not for Palestinians,
then we come to the root question that is: Where jews came from and where
palestinians came from?  The outsiders vs. the insiders..

Palestine is NOT "a land without nation for a nation with out land."
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24051 talk.politics.soviet:9969 soc.culture.greek:11847 soc.culture.europe:10776 soc.history:10366 soc.culture.soviet:11532 soc.culture.bulgaria:2013 soc.culture.jewish:23928 talk.politics.misc:65335
From: stephen@watson.princeton.edu ()
Subject: Re: israeli racism
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: talk
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:25:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.1777.21633@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
> 
> Don't be surprised if someday after being on the receiving end of
> all this verbal abuse that Americans decide to stop sending
> Israel $4 billion per year in aid. We have no obligation to be
> involved in your affairs whatever. If the relationship is not
> based on mutual respect, shared values and interests, and honest
> friendship, it will cease to exist.
> 

C'mon man; if you're going to attack Israel at least do it intelligently.
Where the hell did you study American foreign policy?  Yes, the US has
a strong record of immediately breaking off aid and relations with nations
that fail to subscribe to the criteria you've listed.  "Honest freindship"??
Give me a fucking break.  Stay out of public office.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:33:49 GMT


It is misleading to say the least to call the expulsions (2-year 
deportations). What will eventually happen is that their families will
be "encouraged" to join them and they will never be allowed back to Israel
(in 2 years maybe the occupied territories will be part of Israel, who knows). With the high number of children per family in Palestine, this means that for
every man, one woman and about five children will join him.
This means that what happened was the first step in the permanent expulsion
of 415*6=more than 2400 Palestinians.

Maybe this won't happen anyway, it seems that Yasser Arafat is willing to
"discipline" those IRM (Hames) people anyway. (you know the way Assad 
straightened the Muslim brotherhood in Hamah.) No one will be complaining
of the killings of Palestinians after that, after all it will be an inter-Arab
thing. Hames will be the reason that the peace process will either accelerate
to reach the above situation or stop. It is Israel's decision.

=============================================================
Modified Murphy's first law of realistic probability:
If it can happen, it will happen...
Unless of course "it" is a good thing.
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
Ilyess Ben Ali Bdira    Montreal Quebec  Canada
E-mail ilyess@ECE.concordia.CA, benali@alcor.concordia.CA
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Solutions to the problem? (was Re: Sgt
Date: 2 Jan 1993 05:18:02 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 145@vms.huji.ac.il, backon@vms.huji.ac.il () writes:
>In article <1hu053INN8rg@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>> Almost nobody considered the "German-Italian model"
>> to include genocide in 1940.  (In the case of Italy, it never did.)

>Sorry Brendan. You're *quite* wrong.

Nope, you are *quite* misinterpreting me.

>Jews were killed in Poland as early as October 1939. There were 1400 Jews
>murdered in Chelm, 500 in Przemysl. The first deportations to Auschwitz were on
>June 14, 1940. There were slave-labor camps in existence in 1940 where tens of
>thousands of Jews died. There were deportations (e.g. Warthegau) as early as
>November 7, 1939. There were German atrocities against Jews between September 2
>- November 13, 1939 in Poland. Tens of thousands of German Jews were sent to
>concentration camps in Germany as early as November 10, 1938. On December 12,
>1939, two years' forced labor was made compulsory for all Jewish males between
>the ages of 14 and 60 living in Poland. Labor camps were set up throughout the
>General Government and in the Warthegau. Many thousands died in these labor
>camps of brutality and exhaustion. Jewish patients in old age homes were
>exterminated in German euthanasia centers in 1940 and before.

>What were you saying about 1940 ?

Almost nobody considered (AT THE TIME) the "German-Italian model" to 
include genocide in 1940.  You haven't provided the slightest disproof of 
this VERY WELL KNOWN fact.  

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:45:43 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Dec21101816@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:

# In article <1992Dec21.141015.9393@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >   # What's wrong with you?  Can't you tell right from wrong?  Rounding up
# >   # and deporting innocents is wrong.  Even if it seems expedient, it is
# >   # still wrong.

# >	   These people are sworn to destroy Israel.  And if deporting them
# >   makes Israel more secure (I am not claiming here that id does or does
# >   not), and protestc all of its citizens (Jews and Arabs) than the only
# >   wrong thing is that not enough were deported.

# >	   Any government's primary mission is to its citizens first, and
# >   than any international obligations (including international law)
# >   second.
 
# But Israel in its deportations is not following your requirements, it
# is not putting its citizens first.  It is putting its governmental
# structure first, and its subjects a distant second.

	I disagree with your statement, but I do not have time to debate
that now.  I just want to say that if the Israeli government is indeed
puting its government structure first, and not doing what it should do
as the protector of the Jewish State, than I agree the deportations
are wrong.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24346 soc.culture.jewish:24222 soc.culture.arabic:6044
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Date: 30 Dec 1992 00:55:03 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70


In article 4924@nysernet.org, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

>>And you try to make it seem that Palestine was basically empty before
>the Zionists came.

>Not empty, but fairly sparsely populated.

According to Ottoman census data, Palestine was one of the most densely
populated regions in the Ottoman Empire.  You can find figures for
people/sq.km. in Ottoman Population, by K. Karpat.

>Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Brendan.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can Mr. Perlman back up his claims? (was  Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy)
Date: 24 Dec 92 00:51:13 GMT
	<1992Dec23.184534.2938@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
	<1992Dec23.190710.16122@colorado.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU's message of 23 Dec 92 19:07:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.190710.16122@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>
> In article <1992Dec23.184534.2938@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
> >
> >Poor Perlman.  Once again, he is cought with his pants down, but instead
> >of facing reality, he twists and shouts and engages in hyperboles, all in
> >a disparate attempt to hide his naked reality.  In two days, I'm sure, he
> >will come back and claim that he has "utterly refuted" Yigal.
> >
> >We all make mistakes, Perlman.  I suggest you simply admit it and save
> >whatever little credibility that some think you might still have.
>
> Poor Muhanna.  If you've been following the thread with any alacrity,
> you'd know that Dr. Arens is vastly misstating the case.  Unfortunately,
> Waleed seems to suffer from the same problems as Dr. Arens.  Must I remind
> the net of the several times I've caught Muhanna in the act of making up a
> straw man by misconstruing my arguments, or putting words in my mouth,
> in order to make me look silly?   He'll deny this of course, but it's
> fact.  Muhanna, your credibility is stretched to the limit already.  I
> suggest you not stretch it any further.

In the past couple of days alone and just on this very topic, Mr.
Perlman has accused first me, then Mr. Gingerich, and now Mr. Muhanna,
of "misstating the case", "strip-quoting" articles, and "misconstruing
arguments" respectively.  Seems like Mr. Perlman has an unusual
propensity for having his postings "twisted" by others.  I don't think
people can be faulted for beginning to suspect that the fault may lie,
not with everyone else, but with Mr. Perlman himself.

> The only mistake in this thread is Dr. Arens', as I have already shown.

Of course.  "As [you] have already shown".  But you have *not* backed up
your perposterous statement concerning "numerous" PLO-activists who
supposedly seek Israeli protection.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24003 talk.politics.soviet:9954 soc.culture.greek:11833 soc.culture.europe:10761 soc.rights.human:4658 soc.culture.soviet:11506
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: WHY?
From: fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 15:58:42 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center

>What do people want in the middle east? Why are they not satisfied?
>Why hasn't a solution been found?

   Because Moslem fanatics want to destroy Israel,
and Israel doesn't want to be destroyed.

   Dan
From: sahle@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Eskinder Sahle)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re:  Re: Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians
Date: 23 Dec 92 00:30:31 GMT
Organization: VPI&SU Computer Science Department, Blacksburg, VA

In article ... makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article ... niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>
># But, as well as being illegal, the deportations were stupid.  They
># do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to solve *any* of the problems of Israel.
>
>	Actually, deportations, in such small numbers, are stupid.  I
>       agree.
>       ....
># Are the deportations likely to deter future killings?  No.  They're more
># likely to *incite* killings.
>
>	Precisely because not enough were deported.
>       ....

Humm....  And when you are compared to Hitler and the Nazis you
holler bloody murder!  The deportations were just an outrage, and on
top of that, an exercise in absurdity.  They will achieve nothing except
put a big hurdle in the effort to develop some semblance of a dialogue,
and just give more weight to those on the Palestinian side who are totally 
opposed to any sort of negotiated compromise.  And what is even more
mind-boggling is the scale of the deportation: 400! with another 
hundred on the way....  I mean, what do you expect with this sort of
unmeasured and disproportionate intransigence, except a reply in kind
from the other side?

Ahmed Bouzid
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23861 talk.politics.soviet:9891 soc.culture.greek:11729 soc.culture.europe:10680 soc.history:10300 soc.culture.soviet:11372
From: gwydion@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Alan Stein
Date: 1 Jan 1993 01:18:09 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu

Is Alan Stein a new and improved version of Ilan Rabinowitz?

Basalat Ali Raja.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 23:55:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.064751.0158256@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
>In article <1992Dec24.011712.5626@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>Tell me, how do Palestineans "express their individual views
>>politically and socially"?  With machine guns, as they did last week,
>>or with grenades, as they did a few days ago?
>
>And tell me, how did israel come to its theft existence?  By roses,
>olive branches, or doves?  They did it with terror, torture, then theft.

Have you ever heard of the League of Nations?

>>Arafat is the only person to my knowledge who addressed the UN General 
>>Assembly with a machine gun, to his eternal shame.  He is the same one
>>who promised "10 bullets in the chest" if they disagree with him,
>>perfectly in accordance with the Palestinean revolutionary policies
>>mentioned in the NY Times article.  Is this your leader, Anisa?
>
>I assume Begin and Shamir, the groomed terrorists,  used flowers
>and roses in the chests and stomachs of pregnant women when
>they killed them,  Right?

You are being violently ill in public.  Should someone call a doctor? 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: To Livian (was Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians)
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 22:01:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.170253.17576@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>I would like to point out that although you note differences between the
>PLO and Hamas, the recent actions of the Israeli government have had the
>effect of bringing these two groups together. 

I should like to point out that during Desert Storm, Saudi Arabia
together with other Arab states threatened by Iraq was willing to JOIN
with Iraq in fighting against Israel if the Israelis dared to
retaliate for the Iraqi SCUD attacks.  During the Iran-Iraq War, both
sides repeatedly stated their long-standing enmity for Israel.  

Most of the Arab states are in perpetual conflict with most other Arab
states.  One of the few things that unites them is their hatred for
Israel and for Jews.

That the PLO and Hamas now have some common ground is neither new nor
surprising. 

>I would also like to point out that (again, according to the
>BBC) most of the deported Palestinians have stated that they wish to
>return to their homes and are supporting the refusal of the Lebanese
>government to accept them. 

This would be a good place to remind readers that the so-called
Palestinean refugees in Arab states have been denied citizenship in
most of these countries, even after several generations of living
there and are sometimes kept in slum-like refugee camps by their Arab
bretheren.  Most people seem to be accepting of this status because it
furthers their Holy War against the Zionist Infidels; no amount of
personal discomfort or anguish seems to be too much in this Holy
Struggle.  That Islamic Fundamentalists prefer to live in tent camps
and support the refusal of a sympathetic government to help them is
merely an extension of the so-called Palestinean Refugee problem.
This is not new, either.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24189 talk.politics.soviet:10013 soc.culture.greek:11901 soc.culture.europe:10831 soc.history:10399 soc.culture.soviet:11598 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1015 soc.culture.croatia:265 news.admin.policy:915