HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yoshi@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil (D M Yoshikami)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Reserach in Fiction
Date: 22 Jul 92 12:09:30 GMT
Organization: National Naval Medical Center

>I find it difficult to respect the work of authors who do not care
>enough to get some basic information right.

This has been a perpetual problem for writers of all kinds, and the ole Greeks
addressed this problem back in the ole days.  One of the three ways that a
speaker (or writer) can appeal to his audience (other than by logic or emotion)
is by what is known as the "Ethical" appeal, or the appeal to the character
of the speaker.  It is extremely easy to destroy one's own ethical appeal, and 
one of the fastest ways to blow your ethical appeal by misusing a term in a
ridiculous way or showing that one is really not familiar with the material
at hand even though one is supposed to be.  Research combats these two problems.
Another way to think of this is your "credibility".  It is extremely easy to 
lose credibility and get laughed at for showing that one really does not 
understand the technical or scientific term that he is using -- especially if
the writer must be familiar with the technical argot.

It is not surprising, therefore, that authors who lose their credibility through
showing that they do not have the basic information right are ridiculed, 
and often are not respected.  Occasionally, someone can get away with 
misstating something or bungling an analogy, but often that is because the
illustration or citation is only incidental to the main point, or the author
already has credibility that people are willing to forgive a slip here and 
there, and although banged up a little, the author will still have his ethical
appeal, and people will still listen to him.  On the other hand, if you destroy
your own ethical appeal -- Well.... who will listen to you?

DY 

P.s. I hope that I haven't blown my Ethical Appeal in this posting!!  :-)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
D M Yoshikami  :-) ;-) :-)  | Internet: yoshikami@usuhsb.ucc.usuhs.nnmc.navy.mil
No clever saying here, sorry| Bitnet  : yoshikami@usuhsb.bitnet
***  !!xob X*NU V METSYS T&TA eht ni renosirp dleh gnieb m`I  !pleH  !pleH  ***
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From: norbeck@castor.cs.bucknell.edu (nancy norbeck `93)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Help with Quoted Material
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:04:56 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Bucknell University, Lewisburg, Pa.



I have a question dealing with quoted material:

I'm working on a book (still mostly in the idea stage) but there
is a quote I'd like to use by having a character say it.  I am
presently trying to find out who said it in the first place (if I
can't find out I won't use it) but I'd like to know how to attribute
it.  Is it enough to just have the character say "As so-and-so said" 
(or something similar to that), or is there some other way I need to
document it.  And do I need to get permission from a publisher or
author in order to use it?

Along the same lines, there are some songs that have given me a lot
of inspiration for this story and would make very good quotes as 
well.  I would probably have the character be listening to the radio
or a CD or something, but I'm not sure which member of the band in
question wrote the lyrics, and I'm not sure how to find out.  And, as
above, I'm not sure what I have to do to use them properly.(I'm not 
going to pepper the whole thing with quotes, mind you.  Just one or two.)

I won't use anything I can't attribute properly, as much out of my own
sense of morality as of the legality of it.  I'd appreciate any
info you could give me.


Thanks in advance!

Nancy

--
|Nancy Norbeck       | "I know that look."  "What look?"  "The look that says |
|....................|  you're going to be impetuous, vengeful, irresponsible,|
|norbeck@bucknell.edu|  and *stupid*!" --Lady Jane and Lovejoy, "Death and    |
|....................|     Venice"                                            |
Newsgroups: misc.writing,rec.music.makers
From: perez@mgr.hjf.org (Charles Perez)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Help with Quoted Material
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:11:44 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: HJF AIDS Research Project, Washington DC

In article <62702@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes:
[...]
>
>On the other hand, if the quote is from someone obscure, a speaker
>might say "As so-and-so said, 'An abnormally small penis is indicative of
>a clitoris.'" [That's a real quote, by the way, found while browsing in
>a bookstore -- ten points to the first person to identify it.]
>
>--Tim Smith
Uh, Sigmund Freud?

.sig
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Bad Places to have Good Ideas
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Reply-To: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 03:28:44 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.171106.17913@ee.ubc.ca>
     daveg@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Gagne) writes:

>This incident got me thinking about Bad Places to have Good Ideas.

   Well, you can reduce the chance of being in "a bad place" by
carrying a microcassette recorder with you at all times.  Since I'm a
fan of megapockets and bulky jackets, I do.  Of course, your example
(being in the shower) might be a bad environment for it, but you could
always compensate...

>Whaddaya think, am I nuts?

   Absolutely :-)

>Dave

      Elf !!!
-- 
Elf Sternberg    __   |     I have looked into the abyss, and the abyss
elf@halcyon.com  \/   | has looked into me.  Neither liked what we saw.
elf@polari.online.com |                              - Brother Theodore
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: tenney@med.unc.edu (Charles R. Tenney)
Subject: Re: Bad Places to have Good Ideas
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 01:04:00 GMT

>In article <1992Jul23.171106.17913@ee.ubc.ca>
>     daveg@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Gagne) writes:
>
[Prologue:  story idea came in the shower, with no notebook at hand]
>>This incident got me thinking about Bad Places to have Good Ideas.
>

I've not had anything published, or even a complete manuscript written,
so don't take this as a seasoned veteran's advice.

In order to remember an idea that I have in an inconvenient place, I just
keep thinking about it.  Work through details, flesh things out a bit.  You
may not remember the details, but if you've been thinking about the idea
for ten minutes you'll more likely remember it than if you say to
yourself, "hey, this could be a bestselling novel.  But now for something
really important, what will I have for breakfast?"  followed up by a
post-game analysis of your most recent date, and then wondering if you
REALLY want your car painted, and what color.

At the outside limit, you could even reach the point where you're still
bouncing the idea around by the time you get out of the shower, and dried,
and can get to your notebook.




-- 
--
Charles R. Tenney	tenney@med.unc.edu   | What would the UNC school of
					     | Medicine want with my opinions?
	"My karma ran over my dogma."	     | What would I want with theirs?
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates)
Subject: Re: Jobs that (can help) your writing
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 13:07:53 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.193032.11491@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> 
kmrobert@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kevin Roberts) writes:
> I see your point but even if
> a job leaves your mind alone, it doesn't mean that you can use your mind
> for too active an activity without interfering with your work.
> 
>         I am able to think about ideas and maybe come up with one or two
> but there is no way I could avually plot out a story. 

Exactly. Your observation helps me clarify the process. You only want to 
leave *part* of your mind alone. Let s say you are doing a simple, 
repetitive task that lets you daydream, or go into a light trance.  (This 
is no big deal; we all do it every day.)   A hypnotherepist would call 
this an altered state of consciousness, in which you can visualize scenes 
and let material emerge from your unconscious (tap into creativity). 
Basically, what you do is keep your rational left hemisphere tied up with 
busy work, so it doesn t  interefere with (edit) the flow from your 
creative right hemisphere. 

This is a lot different from plotting out a story.  That type of mental 
activity requires a different type of brainwork, one that definitely does 
compete with the task that your are doing, no matter how simple it is.  
And a job that requires your full attention, of course, is one where you 
can t daydream. For what it s worth, you might find that you might not 
have to work at developing a plot.  A part of your brain may have already 
created a plot off line -- and is waiting for the opportunity to give you 
a copy.

When I referred to a job that leaves your mind alone, I meant a job that 
lets you access the material that your mind creates off line.  When I was 
a kid, I could never understand why my parents never minded shelling a 
bushel of peas or topping and tailing a row of beans.  It was so boring! I 
hated it and wanted to get the chore done as soon as possible.  Never 
suspected there might have been something else going on.

************************************
I worked as a technical writer ... editing manuals ... on how to dispose 
of sewage in permafrost; we all had to wear white shirts -- that was 
mandatory -- and I was fired at the end of two weeks for spending too much 
time staring out the window.  
(Edward Abbey)
************************************ 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: lputnam@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee P Putnam)
Subject: What font do you write/type in?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:45:48 GMT


Since there was all that talk as to what font people shoould use in a MS, I
was wondering what font people type in for best writing. I've gotten into 
the habit of typing in 9pt helvetica when using macs. What do you use and
if you change it is it harder to write? 

-lee (p).
From: daveg@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Gagne)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Bad Places to have Good Ideas
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:11:06 GMT
Organization: University of BC, Electrical Engineering



I was in the middle of a nice, relaxing shower this morning when
suddenly - boom! An Idea! In fact, A Good Idea (at least *I* think it
was good). The Idea struck without warning, and I was quite happy with
it. Anytime I get good ideas, I'm quite happy. 

So I played with this idea for a bit, seeing what I could do with it.
It grew very nicely and I figured I could use it in a story I was
"working" on. Then, another idea struck! And another! Uh oh - I was
getting pretty worried about how I was going to remember all this good
stuff. I tried desperately to curb the flow of ideas, lest I lose
*all* of them before I could get out of the shower. Of course, the
ideas kept growing, becoming better every second. It would hurt to
lose them now! 

I couldn't get out yet, I was still all soapy, and there were a few
parts which I hadn't done yet. I rushed through the shower as fast as
I could, then jumped out and dried myself quickly. I was able to get
to a pen and my notebook in time to write down all the ideas I had had
while in the shower, but it was a close thing. 

This incident got me thinking about Bad Places to have Good Ideas.
Places where you just can't do anything about the ideas, you're not
able to write the ideas down, or whatever. I suppose this happens to
all of us (I have lost *lots* of good ideas while in the shower, or in
the car, or on the toilet, etc). The reason it was a bit different
this time was that it wasn't a single idea, but a whole bunch of them,
and they were ideas which sort of developed themselves, there was
a fair bit of context around each of them.

Whaddaya think, am I nuts?

Dave
-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Dave Gagne.              | UBC VLSI Lab                                  |
|  daveg@ee.ubc.ca          | University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: jdm@Cadence.COM (Joe Mastroianni)
Subject: Re: Research in Fiction
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:27:30 GMT

>(aw, heck. One final nudge: people who haven't done a lot of fiction writing
>have no qualification for trying to tell others what it takes to do writing.
>Leave it for the writers are doing it to talk about what works, okay?)
>
>-- 
>Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= Member, SFWA


I had a bet with myself on how long it would take someone to say this.

I won.


Joe
-- 
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
jdm@cadence.com           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "  
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: Re: Bad Places to have Good Ideas
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:21:31 GMT

> (Dave Gagne) writes about about Bad Places to have Good Ideas.

How about:

In a staff meeting as  *you're* giving the presentation.

While mucking out stalls.

While you're driving along a remote highway in the middle of the night
     in the middle of farm country  and you have an idea and you're
     afraid to pull off to the side of the road to write it down  because
					everyone who has ever watched a horror movie knows that	there's
	     more than root worms hiding out in those cornfields.


When you're trying to have a heart-to-heart discussion with your
     teenager about safe sex.


 > Whaddaya think, am I nuts?

Absolutely, Dave.

Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh)
Subject: Re: Research in Fiction
Summary: Other problems
Reply-To: hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:05:41 GMT
Expires: 8/28/92

OK, I never read Forge of God, but I'll accept your analysis of it: no real
dramatic structure and unbleievable plot.

So?

Maybe LOCUS et al. saw something you didn't or so.  Maybe it was taken as
something more than it was.

Let's see, you seem to be saying that some bad fiction is well-researched, so
if you blow off the research, you'll produce good fiction?

Wrong!

Good science fiction has to be both good science and good fiction.  You can't
ignore either leg.
From: armstrongmw@cgc.com
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Writer's Block!!!
Date: 31 Jul 92 08:35:51 PST
Organization: Cooley Godward Castro Huddleson & Tatum, San Francisco, Ca

In article <1992Jul30.091835.1@lure.latrobe.edu.au>, miuvdd@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes:
> Help!!!!
> 
> I'm in a slump!  I'm in a rut!  I have the dreaded writers block, and
> nothing I do seems to do any good!
> 
> So if anyone out there has any ideas how I might overcome this evil
> foe, I would much appreciate it!
> 
> 
> Morgana
> 
> ***********************************************************************
> Reality is for those who can't handle decent fiction...
> ***********************************************************************


There are times(many), when I look for a dozen other things to do instead of 
writing.  Most often, this is because I do not have any new ideas, or paths 
for my current story.  I will end up doing anything other than sitting down 
and writing.  I've also tried to force myself to write, but any work I do 
this way is always garbage.  SO far the only thing that will terminate my block
is to sit down,  read over the last ten pages of the story, then concentrate 
on where the story is headed.   This almost always puts me back into the
story.   

The most important part of this method is to drag yourself as far away from 
any distractions as you can.  If there is a TV near, you will end up 
watching it sooner or later.  If there is a radio near, than you will most
likely find yourself singing rather than writing.   Another big one is family.
If you cannot pull yourself away from them, then you will most likely find
yourself playing with the kids, or discussing socioeconomic fodder with your
spouse(or whomever).   Work in a seperate room that is not effected by the 
daily sounds of your household.  Purge the room of everything but the absolute
necessities, then sit down and focus on the work at hand.  

This method may not work for some people, but I think that the model is 
a fair one that would work most.  It does work for me.

Good Luck!

Mike
  Armstrong
armstrongmw@cgc.com
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (John J Humpal)
Subject: Re: Graduate Level Creative Writing Courses
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:37:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.223818.14958@news.ysu.edu> axinar@tso.uc.edu (John S. Kennedy) writes:
>
>Have any of you taken any graduate level creative writing classes?
>What were they like?  What did you learn?  Are there other places
>where the information that can be obtained from such classes can
>be found?
>
	What you learn is very much a function of who you work with.
The best writing courses are led by a person who is knowledgeable and
enthusiastic (and, of course, honest).  The other people taking the
course with you are also crucial to the success of the course.  I find
that the best writing courses are attended by people who are not afraid
to take criticism, and also not afraid to dish it out, as long as the
criticism is honest.

	Tell your friend to look into local universities' continuing
education (i.e., "night school") departments.  There she is likely to
find writing courses offered by the very same faculty members who wouldn't
let her in to their "day" classes.  She is also likely to meet a much
more eclectic group of writers than she would in a graduate writing
program.

-- 
-John

John J. Humpal -- johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu -- short .sig, std. disclaimer
From: dao4@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DONALD A. O'SHALL)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Jobs that mess up your writing
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:42:12 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <84060@netnews.upenn.edu>, crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Craw
ford) writes:
>The job that stunted my writing more than any other was chief copy
>editor of a magazine.  Every time I sat down to actually write
>something, I froze up.  Each sentence had to be grammatically
>correct, punctuation perfect, spelling flawless.  That's no way
>to write, not at the first-draft stage.  I just couldn't turn the
>copy editor off at night when I wanted to write.  I couldn't even
>turn it off when I sat down to read a book, article, whatever.
>It's a great job for losing friends, too:  "Shouldn't that be
>_more than_ six items, not _over_ six items?"
>
>--Lauren
>
I haven't noticed this to affect my writing ability, but I CAN say that it
honestly can be quite offensive if you are not careful. I have
caught the look on other people's faces when I started making corrections on
the memos they had handed me, meeting notices, etc.  I am not a copy editor,
but acquired the habit of editing my own writing to avoid having
someone else's marks on my manuscripts or articles.  I find myself making
corrections in reference books I have purchased, etc.

-- 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not licensed to practice Law or Medicine in any State, so my opinions are
just that!         DAo4@NS1.CC.LEHIGH.EDU      (Don)
From: cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Graduate Level Creative Writing Courses
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:51:18 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

In article <1992Jul22.163717.15993@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> 
johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (John J Humpal) writes:
> Tell your friend to look into local universities' continuing
> education (i.e., "night school") departments.  There she is likely to
> find writing courses offered by the very same faculty members who 
wouldn't
> let her in to their "day" classes.  She is also likely to meet a much
> more eclectic group of writers than she would in a graduate writing
> program.
This is good advice, especially when the goal is to take the graduate 
courses, as opposed to getting a graduate degree.  However, graduate 
courses are not necessarily better or more demanding than undergraduate.  
As John points out, the value of the course is the quality of the 
instructor -- and the quality of the students.  

For what its worth, Harvard Extension has creative writing courses in 
fiction skills, poetry, and essay. All are for undergraduate credit only.  
These are a great bargain in learning, but not no help if you need credits 
for a graduate degree. If you want to be a better writer, I guess you go 
for what will help you the most.  And if you plan to be a bureaucrat, you 
go for the degree to prove you have the credentials.  So what else is new.

************************************
I worked as a technical writer ... editing manuals ... on how to dispose 
of sewage in permafrost; we all had to wear white shirts -- that was 
mandatory -- and I was fired at the end of two weeks for spending too much 
time staring out the window.  
(Edward Abbey)
************************************ 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com (Suzanne Barrett)
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Writer's Block!!!
Organization: Lockheed Santa Cruz, CA.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 13:56:14 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.230647.12014@odin.corp.sgi.com> rmr@sgi.com (selfish meme) writes:


>>I'm in a slump!  I'm in a rut!  I have the dreaded writers block, and
>>nothing I do seems to do any good!
>>
>>So if anyone out there has any ideas how I might overcome this evil
>>foe, I would much appreciate it!
>>
>>
>>Morgana


>Read something outside of your usual/favorite
>genre, keeping your eye out for new ideas.


>                       Robert.

Go back and retype the last two pages of what you last wrote and see if the 
muse comes again.  This advice I read in one of Dwight Swain's books and 
seems to help...at least gets you focused.
                        Suzanne
-----
suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com