From: emru@CAM.ORG (Emru Townsend)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.anime
Subject: Re: Anime, and He May Not
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:25:59 GMT
Organization: Communications Accessibles Montreal, Quebec Canada

Marc's not here as yet (and he doesn't have net access), so I'll let
him reply later.  These are my personal responses.

In article <186quqINNbl5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bb252@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James L. Brookes) writes:
>
>emru@CAM.ORG (Emru Townsend) writes:
> 
>(article by Marc Elias)
> 
>>In fact, to the more moderate animation enthusiast, the human
>>cost of these problems is not as evident in the medium itself as
>>it is in its most visible disciples, the anime fanatics.
> 
>Human cost??  I'm somewhat confused by what you mean.  To be blunt,
>anime "fanatics" are in general the most intelligent, well dressed,
>well behaved people I know.  When I look at Science Fiction fans
>I see a much more fringe-type element than I've ever seen
>in Anime fandom, for example.

I disagree.  I think the normal-to-weirdie ratio is the same between
SF fans and anime fans.  There are a lot of "normal" SF fans than you
seem to believe, and (IMHO) a few more anime otakus (not used
positively) than you believe.

>>It is a powerful way to show people things they might never see
>>otherwise. Americans like Disney, Bluth, Bakshi, Avery and Jones
>>have set lofty standards for their countrymen that are
>>unfortunately rarely equalled. The Japanese animators, on the
>>other hand, have made putting work and style into their animation
>>almost a national pastime. The Japanese have the best timing, the
>>best draughtsmen, the best scope and the best support system in
>>the world of animation. The North Americans may be funnier
> 
>I don't know about you, but I feel there is much more humor in
>anime than there is in most american animation.  If you look at the majority
>of the cartoons of the last past half-century you find some classics, and
>a lot of slap-stick humor that is terribly unoriginal and boring.  And
>in the animation of today, this is even more evident than in the past.

I find I laugh more during Warner cartoons and independent shorts from
North America than during Japanese animation.  But one man's meat is
another man's poison...

>>Eastern Europeans may be more socially conscious
> 
>Nausicaa?  Barefoot Gen?  Grave of the Fireflies?

Compare that to the amount of Eastern European animation that's come out
in the same span of time.  Combined, there's much more footage of
socially conscious Eastern European animation than Japanese. 

>[japanese-animated machinery is very complex]
> >The results are often astounding. And yet, as we have
>>seen, they refuse to individualize the acting of their
>>characters, and character animation by definition is nothing less
>>than acting. The Japanese are no less human than North Americans,
>>in some cases, probably more so; why won't they breathe life into
>>the majority of their people?
> 
>Where the heck do you get off saying that?  Take a look at any
>of the classics which anyone in r.a.a can name, and take a good
>look at the acting.  In Nausicaa, Nausicaa is one of the most
>convincing young female voice actresses i've EVER heard.  Heck,
>look at ANY Miyazaki film and tell me the voice acting isn't
>better than Disney.  In Maison Ikkoku, one of my favorite series,
>human interaction is taken to a level which no American animation
>of any kind has ever delved into!  Look at Tonari no Totoro, which
>has the most beautiful depiction of children in anime I have ever
>seen before!
> 
>Just because there is much Anime that falls into the catagory
>you mentioned doesn't mean the other side of the coin shouldn't
>be mentioned.

He's talking about character ANIMATION, not character INTERACTION.

>Sure, why not?  In Disney, we have a talking beast, a witch, a
>mermaid.  Compared to that, women in battlesuits isn't terribly
>hard to swallow.  Then, there are those cute little turtles
>in ninja outfits, talking robots, and other such nicities.

In anime we have levitating cats, witches, and mermaids.  I think the
point here is that Disney and co. are doing fairy tales, aimed at kids,
who accept this sort of stuff without blinking.  BGC is supposed to be
aimed at a more mature crowd, and have a bit more realism.

>[...] (he didn't like BGC)
>>But anime has a desperate relationship to stereotypes
>>that gives interested observers plenty of sources from which to
>>track the growth of inexcusably bad ideas.
> 
>I agree with the feeling of your statement, yet I disagree with
>the implication that this reliance on stereotyping to the degree
>you mention is found in anime alone.

I don't think he believes that it's to be found in anime alone.

>>For example, women are so poorly treated in anime that it is next
>>to impossible to nail down the main stereotype. Is it the moll
>>who, despite being the girlfriend of the lantern-jawed hero,
>>isn't officially part of the gang, but can karate kick like
>>nobody's business (once someone unties her), and whose main
>>function seems to be decolletage and occasionally getting
>>kidnapped? Or the teenager who takes a lot of showers with her
>>blonde or redhead but otherwise identically buxom friends at the
>>space boarding school, and then unleashes savage vengeance upon
>>people after school? Is it the spunky tomboy fighter pilot, the
>>zipper of her flight suit constantly under incredible strain from
>>her massive breasts, who is otherwise just like the guys except
>>she can't whip it out and stand at the urinals with them? The
>>killer kid sister? The killer rock singer? The lingerie-selling
>>vigilante leader?
> 
>You seem to have an affinitity for what we "anime fanatics" would
>call "hentai anime" :-)  Maybe you were so engrossed with watching
>these you couldn't find something else to watch.
> 
>Obviously you never saw any Takahashi TV/manga/OAV/Movies,
>or any Miyazaki, Orange Road, Sailor Moon, Yawara! etc etc.
>Your loss.

On Marc's viewing: before he met me, apparently people told him "This
Japanese animation stuff is great!" and proceeded to show him all their
favorites (MACROSS, MEGAZONE, etc.)  Knowing that tastes are as individual
as fingerprints, I aimed more for things I thought _he_ would like
(NAUSICAA, VAMPIRE PRINCESS MIYU, HONNEAMISE), with generally positive 
results.  What I'm doing is feeding him stuff from my collection with as
little interference from my tastes as possible (closing my eyes and
picking up a tape), so he's getting a reasonably balanced view.
Occasionally he asks "Is there any anime that [fill in something or
other]" and I'll answer to the best of my knowledge.  He likes the idea
of RANMA 1/2.  He liked NAUSICAA.  He really enjoyed HONNEAMISE.  I'm
taking him to see GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES when it shows next month.  He
hasn't had as wide an exposure as most of us, but he's getting there.

And this brings me to:

>If I knew nothing about anime, I would come away from this article with
>a very negative impression of it.  The view you are giving your readers
>is regrettably one-dimensional.  According to this article, all anime
>can be lumped into one of a few catagories: flashy but lacking in story,
>sexually explicit drivel, or 1/2 hour toy commercials.  While I agree
>that there is quite a bit of anime that falls into one of or a combination
>of these three catagories, I find it interesting that you can't seem to
>mention anything else.  Perhaps you are too used to American animation,
>which is much easier to catagorize in such a universal fashion.

I think you're being unfair as well, in saying that American animation
can be categorized that much easier.  Can you lump WIZARDS with CARE BEARS?
ROCK & RULE with HAMMERMAN?  BEAUTY AND THE BEAST with COOL WORLD?

In any event, in the same issue Marc gives a thumbs-down to VAMPIRE HUNTER D
and a thumbs-up to VAMPIRE PRINCESS MIYU.  He also praised the Japanese
influence in NEMO last issue.  In future issues he'll be talking about
NAUSICAA, GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES, and whatever I feed him - good or bad.
It'll be up to the readers to decide...

===========================================================================
Emru Townsend             | Lucy: Do you think anybody ever really changes?
Fido: 1:167/133           | Linus: I've changed a lot in the last year.
emru@cam.org  BIX: switch | Lucy: I meant for the better.
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.anime