HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324)
Subject: Re: Proposed map of divided Bosnia-Hercegovina
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 05:47:05 GMT

In article <93006.151049U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (Chicago Cro) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.030520.29596@walter.bellcore.com>, ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com
>(Daniel Chukurov 21324) says:
>>
>I saw the map in question on "The Macneil/Lehrer news hour"
>The Croats would get Bosanska posavina, Kupres, Tom-grad, Livno, and
>that stretch of southern Bosna that we have would be another region.
>
>The Cro muslims would get Bihac, The travnik region, and eastern Bosnia.
>The fascists would get Banja Luka, Pale, Eastern Herzegovina, and Bjeljina.
>
>I also find it intresting that for the first time in 500 years, Hercegovina
>will have self rule. By the way,  Hercegovina would be everything up to and
>including Ravno, It looks like we may even get parts of Ljubinje
>and Nevesinje. Yes, Stolac is included as well. I would rather have
>ALL of eastern Hercgovina included, but it is not possibe...yet.
>
>-Cro
>

What did I say?

DDC
From: esuleym@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: My Bosnian brothers
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:05:33 EST
Keywords: Hope
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

My dear Bosnian brothers and sisters!I feel myself awful because I cannot
really help you.I'm from Azerbaijan and I know what war is.Let me to express
you my simpathy.I promise you taht here in US,in University of Toledo we will
try to organize protest action against weak position of UNO.Sorry,we are not
able to do much more.But I want you to know that people of Azerbaijan are your 
brothers.Your tears are our tears,your hope is our hope and your victory is our
victory.I understand how difficult is it to believe,but IN$ALLA,the justice
will win. Elin Suleymanov.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:340 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1148
From: rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: There is only Croatian and Serbian
Date: 12 Jan 1993 19:56:27 GMT
Organization: Bolt, Beranek & Newman, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: spcsun25.bbn.com

In article <93012.124356U52148@uicvm.uic.edu>, <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (Cro) writes:

|> Ana when will you ever learn. The prison which held my nation is no more,
|> the "official" language "Serbo-Croatian" or "Croatoserbian" was a way
|> to denationalize the Croats and make them be a part of that loathsome
|> regime. More importantly this alleged language was also used to
|> denationalize the Croatian Muslims who with the Croat Catholics comprised a
|> majority in BiH.

This is a political statement;  I'd be more interested in a
linguistic comparison.  If Croatian and Serbian are separate
languages, how separate are they?   

    Nearly identical, like UK and US English?

    Distinguishable but mutually comprehensible, like
       Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian?

    Similar but substantially different, like Spanish and Italian?

-- 
Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com
Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:332 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1123
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Credibility of Milan Stojanovic
Date: 10 Jan 93 19:07:23 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Milan Stojanovic (stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu) writes:
>Thanks Muris.  You might soon start offending Joe in the similar
>manner.  Both Croats and Serbs accepted the Vance/Owen proposal,

So why were they in Belgrade trying to get Milosevic to come
to Geneva to persuade Karadzic accept the plan?
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Monday, 4 Jan 1993 12:37:58 CST
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu>(Chicago Cro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: TALK
 <johnm.726041844@cortex.physiol.su.oz.au>

In article <johnm.726041844@cortex.physiol.su.oz.au>,
johnm@cortex.physiol.su.oz.au (John Males) says:
>
>In <LPkRwB1w165w@infopls.chi.il.us> dani@infopls.chi.il.us (Danijela Mlinaric)
>writes:
>
>>To whom it may concer:
>>                I would like to express my displeasure on the topics in
>>this forum.  We are Croations and we should be talking about our culture,
>>not who's grandfather killed who.  WE ARE the future.  Forget the past
>>but look to the future.  I love reading some of the things people write
>>on here, then I also get angry because people do not speak the truth.  I
>>hope that one day we could speak of peace not war.  I wish everyone Peace
>>in the new year.
>
>>Sincerly,
>>Danijela Mlinaric
>
>Hear, Hear.
>I agree totally. Let us not let this newsgroup degenerate into something
>useless. Croatia could have such a bright future, but it is Croatians in      a
>Croatia
>and abroad that need to stick together, especially the youth. I think we
>can do it. What do others think?
>
>John Males

Damn right. But I also say that we as Croats start using our heads and
write articles and start quoting books. That way if we have to get into
a discussion with the evil, nazi-like, fascist, demonic Serbs, use your
heads while bashing them.

Uvijek spremni za dom.

-Cro...Ana P. Shane is pissed that Yugo is gone...

Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:338 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1147
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 12:43:56 CST
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (Cro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: There is only Croatian and Serbian

I was scrolling through the posting like I normally would,
when I came across an article written by Ana P. Shane.
The subject has no pertinance to this posting. What does however, is that
she (Ana) informs us that we can get some literature in English and
Croatoserbian or some nonsense...

Ana when will you ever learn. The prison which held my nation is no more,
the "official" language "Serbo-Croatian" or "Croatoserbian" was a way
to denationalize the Croats and make them be a part of that loathsome
regime. More importantly this alleged language was also used to
denationalize the Croatian Muslims who with the Croat Catholics comprised a
majority in BiH.

The loathsome regime which sought this "quiet" genocide is no more, but the
effects of this rule are still lingering.

Therefore I would recommend that in the future you use Croatian or
"the enemy language" and not the fake one.

-Cro
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
From: ufkonior@cyf-kr.edu.pl (Jerzy Konior     )
Subject: Internet address of R. Boskovic Institute
Organization: Academic Computer Centre, CYFRONET
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:52:18 GMT

I would be very grateful in anyone could give me the internet
or Bitnet address of the R. Boskovic Institute in Zagreb. Two years
ago I met a fellow from that Institute and now I would like
to contact him. His name is Davor KIRIN and we met in Paris.
Thanks for any help.

Jerzy KONIOR
Institute of Physics
Jagellonian University
30-059 Krakow
ul. Reymonta 4
Poland
internet: ufkonior@lfs.cyf-kr.edu.pl
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Les Aspin
Date: 8 Jan 1993 22:24:39 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu

Today's St. Louis Post-Dispatch "News Analysis" section quotes
Secretary of Defense-designate Les Aspin saying he never had advocated
using U.S. ground forces in Bosnia.  Rather, the options under
discussion are enforcing the "no-fly" zone, arming the Muslims, and
the use of U.S. air strikes.

Discussing the ends of military intervention, and the dangers of
escalation into a Vietnam-like involvement, he said:
	"With the end of the Cold War, maybe it's no longer necessary
to think in those terms of ratcheting it up.  Maybe you can use force
not to achieve something but to punish people for doing certain
things." 

This is most sensible, since after all armies exist to kill and
destroy.  If they do any good at all, it is by deterring greater
destruction and killing.  I think some punishment of Serbia for
attempted genocide might well deter another state from similar
adventures.

Anyway, this is one of the few good new ideas I have heard amidst the
Bush paralysis.  I feel even better about my vote.

Regards,
Victor
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Internet access to Croatia?
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 20:56:44 CST
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

hello,

  Does anyone know if the Croatian "University Computing Centre 
(NET-CARNET) " is accessable via FTP or TELNET?  The Netnumber for CARNET 
is 161.53.0.0, but you can't use that number for FTP or TELNET.  From 
what I've heard, CARNET is or will connect Zagreb, Pula, Dubrovnik, 
Osijek and a few other major Croat cities\Universities to the Internet.  
Is or will it be accessable via FTP or Telnet?


Damir


--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Croatian Radio Zagreb
Date: 5 Jan 1993 03:43:41 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu

This is old news to some of you:

News in English and Croatian, from the perspective of the government
of the Republic of Croatia, may be heard each evening at 00:00 UTC
(that's 7pm EST, or 6pm CST, etc., in the US) on the shortwave
frequency 7315 kHz.  The first 5 minutes or so of the half-hour
broadcast are in English, with the remainder being mostly in Croatian.

The program is rebroadcast from a transmitter near Indianapolis, IN,
but the costs are covered through donations to Croatian Radio Zagreb,
Account #410001, Croatian Toronto Credit Union, 1165 Bloor Street W.,
Toronto, Ontario, m6h 1m9 Canada.

Regards,
Victor
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:339 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10461
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 12:56:28 CST
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject:    Re: Steelheart


In article <C0q37L.BJ1@ns1.nodak.edu>, malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola
Malenovic) says:
>
>I wonder if anyone has more information about the bend 'Steelheart'. The
                                                   ^^^^
>singer's name is Michael Matijevic. The bend seems to be 'sponsored' by Iron
>Maiden lead singer (Bruce Dickinson) and the bend is not that bad. I
>specially liked the song "She's gone" - very good tune... It seems that Mike
>(Matijevic) writes almost all of the music for the bend...
>
>judging from his last name, he must be first generation American - leaving
>the 'j' and 'ovic' in the last name seems to signal this conclusion. any
>info about Mike himself? was he singing in any of the bend's in exYU?
>
>thanX
>
>Nik
>--
>Nikola Malenovic
>malenovi@agassiz.cas.und.nodak.edu

Mr. Matijevic is a Croat who was born in Zagreb and moved out when he was
wery young.

-Cro

Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
From: borbor@divsun.unige.ch (Boris Borcic)
Subject: Re: TALK
Followup-To: soc.culture.croatia
Organization: University of Geneva
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:48:26 GMT

In article <93004.123758U52148@uicvm.uic.edu>,
<U52148@uicvm.uic.edu>(Chicago Cro) wrote:

Danijela Mlinaric :
> >
> >>To whom it may concer:
> >>                I would like to express my displeasure on the topics in
> >>this forum.  [...]  Forget the past but look to the future.[...] I
> >>hope that one day we could speak of peace not war.  I wish everyone Peace
> >>in the new year.
> >

John Males :
> >Hear, Hear.
> >I agree totally. [...] What do others think?
> >
> >John Males
> 

Cro:
> Damn right. But I also say that we as Croats start using our heads and
> write articles and start quoting books. That way if we have to get into
> a discussion with the evil, nazi-like, fascist, demonic Serbs, use your
> heads while bashing them.


Cro, you are hopeless. Did you notice that, while you claim to agree,
your next statement is 180 degrees to what Danijela asks for ?
And your grammar is incoherent as well. I am impressed that you are
overcome with emotion at the idea of having a discussion with the
evil Serbs, but is this really your notion of using your head ?

The only point of agreement I ever had with Edward Wiener's hateful
posts is when he described some of yours as "babbling"

I wish everyone Peace and at least a survival ration of Justice 
in the new year.

- Boris Borcic
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: sweeney@trader.nyo.dec.com (patrick sweeney)
Subject: Benefit for Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia
Reply-To: sweeney@trader.nyo.dec.com (patrick sweeney)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:13:45 GMT


   This is a message from the Croatian Council of New York
   66-05 Dartmouth Street
   Rego Park, NY 11374
   tel (718)263-2540, (718)353-0069, fax (718)263-2455

   Dear Friends

   Thousands have died.  Hundreds of thousands more face death this
   winter from cold and starvation in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia. 
   We need your help.  The Croatian Council of New York and Truth About
   Croatia, Inc. with the help of Medjugorje Mir (Peace) Groups are
   preparing a benefit to raise money to buy food and other necessities
   for those ravaged by war.  All proceeds will go through the Croatian
   Franciscan Emergency Relief Fund.

   The benefit called "A Call for Bread" will be held in New York City
   on Saturday, January 30, 1993 at 3 PM at the Paramount at Madison
   Square Garden.  Tickets are $45 (with a limited number of $60 and $30
   student tickets available).  The program includes performances by
   members of the entertainment industry, including members from the
   cast of Cats, Miss Saigon, A Chorus Line, and more.

   After the show, Truth About Croatia, Inc. will be hosting its second
   annual dinner at the New York Hilton and Towers Hotel.  At the dinner
   there will be an opportunity to meet with academic, political, and
   civic leaders concerned with the plight of the people of
   Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia.  The ticket for the dinner are $150
   and this includes admission to "A Call For Bread" at the Paramount.

   We need your help in this effort.  We need to sell over five thousand
   tickets in the next three weeks.  If you cannot attend we ask that
   you still purchase a  ticket.  Be a Guardian Angel to those who need
   our help so desperately.  The need for your assistance is NOW. 
   Tomorrow will be too late.

   There will be a Mass for the Victims of War in Bosnia-Herzegovina and
   Croatia on the following day, Sunday, January 31, at 2:30 P.M., at
   Sts. Cyril and Methodius and St. Raphael's Church, West 41st Street
   and 10th Avenue, celebrated by Fr. Svetozar.  All those who purchase
   a ticket will be enrolled before the Blessed Sacrament at a special
   ceremony at the Offertory of the Mass.

   If you have any questions or would like to know more about the
   events, feel free to contact the Croatian Council of New York at
   718/263-2540.

   Thank you in the name of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph
--
Patrick Sweeney
Digital Eqiupment
New York, NY 10121
sweeney@sdsvax.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: There is only Croatian and Serbian
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 05:28:19 GMT

In article <Jan.12.17.18.07.1993.14963@andromeda.rutgers.edu> pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:
>
>>...........................If Croatian and Serbian are separate
>>languages, how separate are they?   
>
>>    Nearly identical, like UK and US English?
>
>>    Distinguishable but mutually comprehensible, like
>>       Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian?
>
>>    Similar but substantially different, like Spanish and Italian?
>
>>-- 
>>Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com
>
>The answer is:
>
>Croatian and Serbian standard (literary) languages are as close as
>UK and USA English.
>

This might have been true in the old Yugo, but not any more.  After
Yugo split, Croatian literary language has changed.  Hundreds of old
Croatian words that were not recognized as proper literary words by
the Serbo-Croatian surrogate were brought back into the language, and,
as you might guess, Croatian dropped the Serbian literary forms.
Certainly, the languages will continue to grow even further appart due
to the political situation in the future.  Granted, the languages are
still very similar, but as long as there is a desire to have a
separate Croatian language, why shouldn't there be one?

>Yes, it is a political statement to either deny the existence of
>one Serbo-Croatian (Croatoserbian) or to deny difference between
>the two variants (literary) of this language.
>

It is more than a political statement.  It is a statement of Cultural
identity.  Most of nations are identified by their language.  For
example, I am taking a folk dance class this term hare at MIT, and all
the songs that we have done so far that were from Yugoslav region were
identified as Serbian.  I could recognize some that were sung in
Croatian dialects, and would assume that they were therefore Croatian.
But your average MIT Joe that doesn't sepak either Croatian nor
Serbian will go through the class, learn to dance Croatian dances, and
think and contribute this piece of the folk culture to Serbia.  I
can't really say that I like the sound of that...

>Unpolitically speaking, the range of local dialects spoken by
>Serbs, Monte-Negrians, Bosnian, Herzegovinians and Croats are considered to be
>for all scientific purposes, one language with two standardized
>variants (literary Croatian and literary Serbian variant). The spoken
>dialects are more numerous and some mutually almost incomprehensible
>even within each of the variants.
>

As I see it, there can be even Serbo-Croatian, and Corto-Serbian, and
Croato-Serbian-With-A-Muslim-Twist.  I can not agree with anyone who
finds it appropriate to tell other people what to speak for any
reason, be it political, nationalistic, or scientific.  Heck, if I
want to create a new language right now, and I am the only one person
who speaks it, who is to say that that language doesn't exist? 


Regards,
--- Davor

Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:342 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1150
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: There is only Croatian and Serbian
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:18:08 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.croatia
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:

>...........................If Croatian and Serbian are separate
>languages, how separate are they?   

>    Nearly identical, like UK and US English?

>    Distinguishable but mutually comprehensible, like
>       Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian?

>    Similar but substantially different, like Spanish and Italian?

>-- 
>Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com

The answer is:

Croatian and Serbian standard (literary) languages are as close as
UK and USA English.

Yes, it is a political statement to either deny the existence of
one Serbo-Croatian (Croatoserbian) or to deny difference between
the two variants (literary) of this language.

Unpolitically speaking, the range of local dialects spoken by
Serbs, Monte-Negrians, Bosnian, Herzegovinians and Croats are considered to be
for all scientific purposes, one language with two standardized
variants (literary Croatian and literary Serbian variant). The spoken
dialects are more numerous and some mutually almost incomprehensible
even within each of the variants.

In today's linguistics there is no consensus as to how big a difference
should be between two "dialects" to be considered a separate "language".
In reality, the Croatian and the Serbian are bound more to the geographic
area than to the ethnic group. Serbs in Croatia speak local Croatian dialects
Bosnian ethnic groups (all of them) speak the same language - whatever
one wishes to call it.

One can use anything politically. Calling one's language Croatian or
Serbian or Serbo-Croatian or Croatoserbian, all can be politicised.
In principle, I myself use the name Serbo-Croatian not because I want
to "opress" Croatians (which I couldn't do even if I wanted to) but
because for me, with all the local differences and specifics, they
have enough similarities (just like US and UK English) to be considered
one language. At the same time, I do not have anything against anybody
else's naming of that language or of any of its dialects.

Respectfully,
Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:335 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1129
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Credibility of Milan Stojanovic
Date: 11 Jan 93 14:59:23 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1993Jan10.190723.7878@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Milan Stojanovic (stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu) writes:
>>Thanks Muris.  You might soon start offending Joe in the similar
>>manner.  Both Croats and Serbs accepted the Vance/Owen proposal,
>
>So why were they in Belgrade trying to get Milosevic to come
>to Geneva to persuade Karadzic accept the plan?

Muslims set up two more conditions in the meantimes, Erland.
And CNN initial reports said exactly what I claimed here.

>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se

Milan N. Stojanovic
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Internet address of R. Boskovic Institute
Date: 8 Jan 1993 10:38:14 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu

In article <C0JIn7.6GB@cyf-kr.edu.pl> ufkonior@cyf-kr.edu.pl (Jerzy Konior     ) writes:
>I would be very grateful in anyone could give me the internet
>or Bitnet address of the R. Boskovic Institute in Zagreb.

irb.ac.mail.yu

Regards,
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Xref: sparky soc.men:22353 soc.women:22312 alt.feminism:6906