HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stoer@hal.nta.no (Stoer Mechthild FNT)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Organization: Norwegian Telecom Research
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 13:10:08 GMT

In <1992Sep10.060031.19658@mel.dit.csiro.au> Marek T. Michalewicz writes:
> Some time ago I watched BBC documentary on Auschwitz. Polish underground 
> had passed information on the localisation and the functioning of the camp to 
> Britain. Polish diplomats and politicians in exile tried to persuade 
> Allies to bomb the camp. There was an interview with Polish member of the 
> Government in exile who personally tried to convince Eden to act. 
> Eden and the British top knew about it. 
> They did nothing. In the last days of the war Allies bombed chemical factory 
> in Auschwitz, but not the camp.

This story had an aftermath in Great Britain.
Eden or somebody else on top was accused of wittingly not having bombed
Auschwitz after the war.
He said that he considered this action,
but that the inhabitants of the camp could have died under the bombing,
that Great Britain was not responsible for bombings in this area
(I don't quite remember the exact responsibility),
that he handed the matter over to the instance "in charge",
some American general, who also did not quite feel responsible,
and handed the matter back, and so forth between the two instances.
As things go, no action was taken.

I don't remember what became of the accusation,
but at least the issue had some echo in the press after the war.

Mechthild Stoer


Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity
Reply-To: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Organization: SUNYA School of Public Health, Albany, NY
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 15:47:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.145824.5099@cs.brown.edu>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>#
>#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>#
>##
>##Perhaps violently pro-Jewish? Do you feel Weiss can be compared with
>##Glemp? Does he hate Poles?
>#
>#RWhat about violently intolerant ? Of course Weiss cannot be compared
>#with Glemp - there is no even shred of evidence that Glemp is
>#intolerant. 
>
>I believe your opinion is not shared by other Polish readers of
>this newsgroup.
>

  Indeed, it is not (is speak for myself, of course).

[...]
>
>Its all a question of numbers, I guess. Anyway I am getting sick and
>tired of this futile debate, and suggest to everybody invloved to
>drop it. I probably will not respond to any more posters, and hope
>the whole topic will die away.
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>

  Very good idea ...  I do not know how one can productively discuss
somebody's prejudice.
                                  Pawel Penczek
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein)
Subject: Re: To Mariusz
Organization: Strawman Incorporated
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:24:25 GMT

In article <87930@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.124315.9604@icd.ab.com> minta@triton (Marek Minta) writes:
>>In article <87665@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep1.195232.5646@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:
>>>>[..] But anti-semitism was
>>>>and still is endemic to Polish society.
>>>              ^^^^^^^
>>>You should check your Webster's , before you use a word. 
>>
>>"Endemic" is used properly in this sentence, [...]
>>
>>Marek Minta
>
>My Webster's says "endemic": >restricted< and native to particular area, in
>all five entries. I know, what Robert had in mind, but this particular
>word was used incorrectly. BTW isn't it strange how some of our net friends
>from s.c.j. use English language? I read elaborate ethymological explanations 
>, why the name "Polish Death Camps" is correct, and now this innovative
>use of the word endemic. Perhaps this is not serendipitous!

So what is it with this newsgroup? In my first posting to this group,
someone responded by conviently editing my post down to two words and
juxtaposing it against someone else's post in order to completely
change its meaning. My private e-mail to this person got no response.

Now I get a lesson in grammar. I think you know damn well what I meant so
why the grammar lesson? I was not a party to the "Polish Death Camp"
controversy, nor am I one of your "s.c.j. net friends", so the analogy 
is not valid. Now as for the Polish death camp issue, I personally feel they
should be called German death camps on Polish soil, and leave it at that.
Are you happy now? Can you now please respond to the content of my post?
-- 
******************************************************************************
Robert Greenstein           What the fool cannot learn he laughs at, thinking
green@island.com            that by his laughter he shows superiority instead
                            of latent idiocy - M. Corelli
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2370 soc.culture.vietnamese:13114 soc.culture.iranian:7731 misc.education:3292 soc.culture.nepal:435
From: azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 02:33:59 GMT

In article <EeezMR200WB6Aee3A8@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:

>I say:
>Watch the movie Shoah (you should be able to find it at a nearby video

Shoah was VERY criticized in Poland. I would not think about it in terms
of an evidence. And even if, then I would be VERY careful.

>store).  Watch and listen to the descriptions Poles themselves gives
>about what they did when given the chance to collaborate with the
>Nazis.  More than that, listen to the terms they use when they talk
>about their Jewish neighbours, their own Polish co-citizens.  See
>what greed and years of antisemitism induced by the Catholic Church
>created out of them.  

Ok., I have a question. This is of pure curiosity. 
You are so fiercely criticizing the way that you believe Poles
were behaving during the IIWW. Would you please write a few sentences
about what has been going on during the last few decades in Israel ? I am
particularily interested in Jews - Arabs mutual relations. Is this true
for example, that you keep Palestinians in closed camps, and you destroy
some of them (camps) from time to time ? For fun ? or maybe there are
some other important reasons that I am not aware of ? You know, I am
very far from these problems, perhaps I do not understand them correctly,
and I would appreciate if you, by the way, say something on s.c.p on this 
issue too.  

Andrzej Zaleski

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: zrfp0406@awssn3.rus.uni-stuttgart.de (Joerg Hertzer)
Subject: SUMMARY: DONOSY (English translation) missing
Summary: Why English translation of DONOSY is not distributed
Organization: Comp. Cent. University of Stuttgart (RUS), FRG
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:49:43 GMT


From the Editors of the polish version of DONOSY in Warszawa
I got the following E-MAIL:



>From donosy@fuw.edu.pl Fri Sep  4 22:23:33 1992
>To: Hertzer@rus.uni-stuttgart.de (Joerg Hertzer)
>Subject: English-language Donosy
>
>Hi,
>Przemek was on vacation, then his computer decided to send all his mail
>into black hole, and now he is moving into new house.
>Expect a message from him in a couple of days.
>
>   Michal



My special thanks to Ian Feldman (ianf@random.se) for his idea to ask there!

Joerg

P.S.: Because of another subject here: Please note that they (in Warszawa) sent
from an INTERNET address!

Dr.-Ing. Joerg Hertzer                    Phone:  ++49-711-685-5734
Computer Center University Stuttgart      Fax:    ++49-711-682357
Allmandring 30                            E-Mail: Hertzer@rus.uni-stuttgart.de
W-7000 Stuttgart 80
Germany
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: jjt@aristotle.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Jack Tuszynski)
Subject: Re: Poczta Polska- zlodziejstwo kwalifikowane???
Keywords: scam
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 07:24:08 GMT

Na temat Polskiej Poczty:

>Mozliwe wyjasnienia:
>1.	Szla, szla az doszla;
>2.	Zawieruszyla sie, po interwencji staneli na glowie i ja znalezli;
>3.	Doszla byla wczesniej, odlozono ja grzeczniutko na bok i czekano, czy
>sie ktos upomni.
>	Upomnial sie - to doreczono. Nie upomnialby sie... Merry Christmas!


Co sie dzieje w PKP, Pocztcie, Policji, i roznych takich panstwowych
przeciebiorstwach?  Wewnetzna prywatyzacja.  Co to jest wewnetzna prywatyzacja?
Np. w Warszawie, bagazowy PKP praktycznie pracuje dla siebie wewnatz duzej
panstwowej firmy.  To jest tak jakbym ja w NASA pisal programy dla interesow,
i bral za to pieniadze, wszystko na sprzetcie JPL w czasie pracy.  Byle by
moj szef i naczelni dostali czesc zarobkow, to by bylo tolerowane.  
Znak na dworcu pisze bagaz za 2500 zl bedzie chowany.  Ale jest kwestja
ubezpieczenia.  Na ile oszacowac ubezpieczenie na walizki?  Od rumunow 
czy to ruskow przed nami nic nie wzial bagazowy.  Bo wogule nie bieze
bagaz od romonow lub ruskow.  Nas, turystow, oszacowal na 60,000 zl.
Styl nas byli Polacy.  Ich oszacowal na mniej.  Wszystko gotowka, wszystko
bez kwitow bylo zalatwione.  Ten czlowiek pracowal dla siebie, wewnatz
PKP.  Policjanci tak samo.   Dawaja mandaty, i biora gotowke.  Sadze ze
Poczta polska na tych samych zasadach dziala.   Ta cala wewnetzna
prywatyzacja dziala, na zasadzie ze nikt nie nazeka.  To znaczy, mysmy
chcieli bagaze chowane w Warszawie, on wzial pieniadze od nas, i jego
naczelny w PKP napewno dostaje procent.   System dziala.  Nie ma harcerzy
ktorzy by sie upomnieli ze znak pisze 2500zl.  W ten sposob system dziala.

Z paczka wyslana ubezpieczona moglo sie wiele stac.  Ale jesli czlowiek
dziala w kompletnym bezprawiu, to trzeba tez innaczej wysylac paczki.
Kogo to jest wina ze paczka byla zgubiona w PP?  Poczty?  Czy nadawcy?
Mozna bylo ta sama paczke wyslac z Polski teraz juz przez DHL.  Czemu
nie?  Zeby zaoszczedzic pieniadze.  No to zaoszczedziles pieniadze.
Trudno winic Polska poczte.   Polska poczta jest tym czym jest.  Nikt
nie mowil ze to jest zachodnia poczta.  Jest poprostu tym czym jest.
Ale jest bezprawie, i to wtedy nie wyklucza konkurecje.   Uzywaj prywatna
firme w takim razie.  Moze, jesli dosc klientow straca, to sie zastanowia
nad tym co robia zle?   Ale to samo im musi przyjsc bo trudno zeby
poczta zplajtowala, nie? 


Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: zoelen@rulfsw.leidenuniv.nl
Subject: polish hotels
Organization: Leiden University Faculty of Social Sciences
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:53:21 +0100

hi ppl..
i have a list of class III and IV hotels in the south western region
of poland, and i was wondering if the same list exists for other
parts of the country. i would like to have them... i think there
isn't much difference between these hotels and those in the 
other classes.  (except prices ofcourse...)
regards, ad van zoelen, leiden, holland
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2469 soc.culture.jewish:15579
From: mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 8 Sep 92 22:51:25 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Albany

In article <1992Sep8.162749.25948@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:

>Why do they hate you so much ? Are they crazy or what ?


This is a fine example of dirty argumentation. Just blame the victim, eh?


As far as the charge is concerned, I suspect that the high
intermarriage rate among Jews today is ample evidence that we get
along with people.


--Mark
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: marek@mel.dit.csiro.au (Marek T. Michalewicz)
Subject: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Keywords: orzel - reszka
Organization: CSIRO DIT (Melb.)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 06:00:31 GMT


Now that the disscussion on Poilsh anti-semitism and complicity nearly 
died out, I have some questions.

Some time ago I watched BBC documentary on Auschwitz. Polish underground 
had passed information on the localisation and the functioning of the camp to 
Britain. Polish diplomats and politicians in exile tried to persuade 
Allies to bomb the camp. There was an interview with Polish member of the 
Government in exile who personally tried to convince Eden to act. 
Eden and the British top knew about it. 
They did nothing. In the last days of the war Allies bombed chemical factory 
in Auschwitz, but not the camp.

The other example was of the Rabbi of Buda or Pest, who was informed by 
Home Army intelligence, via Slovakia, of the largely extended barracks, 
new ramps and crematoriums in Aushwitz, in preparation for Jews of Hungary.

He did nothing to inform or worn his fellow religious brothers.
If I remember well he was tried later in Israel. 

Yet another example is the actions of American Jews during the WWII.
Apparently there was only *ONE* demonstration (N.Y.C.?) 
against extermination of Jews of Eastern Europe. 
Apparently American Jews were afraid to stick their neck out and being 
accused of dragging US into the War.
There were close to 3 million Jews in the US during the war.
What did they do to protect or help their brethren.
Perhaps some of them did a lot and some of them did as much as that simple 
peasant shown in "Shoah" (*nothing*). 

It appears also that the special anti-Polish resentment is held by 
American Jews, more so then Israeli Jews. Perhaps there is some sort of 
communal guilt that not everything possible was done to save 
the victims of Nazis.

Wholesale blame on other ethnic groups is not going to help understanding 
the problems of demoralisation caused by war.

Could you comment on those issues? Perhaps someone knows the names, exact facts.
I wish there was no anti-semitism, and anti-Polishness. 

Regards, 
Marek

Disclaimer: I AM NOT ANTI-JEWISH. I AM NOT ANTI-POLISH. 
            Just wanted to spark discussion from the slightly different 
            angle.
--
*  Dr Marek T. Michalewicz                                                    *
*  Supercomputing Support Group, Division of Information Technology, CSIRO    *
*  723 Swanston Street, Carlton, Victoria 3053, Australia                     *
*  *tel: +61 3 282 2621 *Fax: +61 3 282 2600  *e-mail: marek@mel.dit.csiro.au *
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Reply-To: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Organization: SUNYA School of Public Health, Albany, NY
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 13:54:01 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.024936.11121@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.022404.8053@mel.dit.csiro.au> marek@mel.dit.csiro.au (Marek T. Michalewicz) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Sep10.165003.9799@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>|> In article <1992Sep10.060031.19658@mel.dit.csiro.au> marek@mel.dit.csiro.au (Marek T. Michalewicz) writes:
>
>>|> Now, as for bombing the camp, this might also have caused great loss of
>>|> life to the prisoners there at the time.  
>
>>Gas chambers, crematoriums and ramps could be bombed without greater loss 
>>of life as if it would still function.
>
>I see.  So you think that bombing was that accurate?  That bombs sufficient
>to destroy the killing plants wouldn't have meant sufficient stray bombs
>to destroy densely packed barracks, too?
>
>This is especially a problem when one is dealing with a structure known *only*
>from aerial photos.  
>
  Roger is right - bombing during WWII was very inaccurate.  It is specially
evident in the Allies effort to destroy the V1-V2 factory and research
center in Pennemunde.  Most of the victims were Unkrainian and Polish
workers (they were forced to work there).  Certainly in this case the
losses were justified - V2 rockets were used against London .... 

                                          Pawel Penczek
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:29:47 GMT


In article <1992Sep11.145824.5099@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>
>I believe your opinion is not shared by other Polish readers of
>this newsgroup.
>
I believe that everybody (with some unfortunate exceptions) during discussion
represents only oneself, nobody else, and speaks only for oneself.
>
>Attack? 
>
>
How would you like to call it - friendly visit ?

>
>Its all a question of numbers, I guess. Anyway I am getting sick and
>tired of this futile debate, and suggest to everybody invloved to
>drop it. I probably will not respond to any more posters, and hope
>the whole topic will die away.
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>

Thats exactly what I also feel about that.

A. Mazur
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2410 soc.culture.vietnamese:13160 soc.culture.iranian:7754 misc.education:3306 soc.culture.nepal:440
From: pindor@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Andrzej Pindor)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:41:40 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.023359.27312@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:
>In article <EeezMR200WB6Aee3A8@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:
>
>>I say:
>>Watch the movie Shoah (you should be able to find it at a nearby video
>
>Shoah was VERY criticized in Poland. I would not think about it in terms

While I agree that basing one's opinion about Polish-Jewish relations on one 
movie is incorrect (in particular that it's directior has shown himself on
other occasions to have a strong anti-Polish bias), the fact that film 
'was VERY criticised in Poland' is no argument for it being a good evidence
or not. It presented Poles in a bad light so it was bound to be 'VERY'
criticised, irrespective of how close to or how far from the truth it was. 

>of an evidence. And even if, then I would be VERY careful.
>
>>store).  Watch and listen to the descriptions Poles themselves gives
>>about what they did when given the chance to collaborate with the
>>Nazis.  More than that, listen to the terms they use when they talk
>>about their Jewish neighbours, their own Polish co-citizens.  See
>>what greed and years of antisemitism induced by the Catholic Church
>>created out of them.  
>
>Ok., I have a question. This is of pure curiosity. 
>You are so fiercely criticizing the way that you believe Poles
>were behaving during the IIWW. Would you please write a few sentences
>about what has been going on during the last few decades in Israel ? I am
>particularily interested in Jews - Arabs mutual relations. Is this true
>for example, that you keep Palestinians in closed camps, and you destroy
>some of them (camps) from time to time ? For fun ? or maybe there are
>some other important reasons that I am not aware of ? You know, I am
>very far from these problems, perhaps I do not understand them correctly,
>and I would appreciate if you, by the way, say something on s.c.p on this 
>issue too.  
>
>Andrzej Zaleski

I fail to see any relevence of Israeli-Arab relations to the discussion
about Polish-Jewish relations (other than a famous argument Soviets used to
apply when presented with evidence that the standard of living in USA is
higher than in SU: But you beat Blacks!). Please keep the irrelevant
subjects off the list. 

Andrzej Pindor

-- 
Andrzej Pindor
University of Toronto
Computing Services
pindor@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: The camps were GERMAN camps, not Polish
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 03:10:41 GMT

defee@tukkasotka.tut.fi (Irek Defee) writes:
#
#I found particularly disturbing fact that it seems Israeli young generation 
#looks like to have detached notion of Germans from "Nazi", that is their 
#image is 'bad Nazi and friendly Germans`. On the other hand, they think about 
#'Polish Nazi` camps. My bet is that this is because of the screening of 
#schoolbooks to avoid 'bad` ethnic stereotyping towards Germans, which 
#indeed offered generous compensations and help to Israel.

Where do you get this information from?? I grew up and was educated in
Israel  (from first grade through Ph.D) and have seen nothing to support 
your conjecture! History is taught as it happened, and the responsibility
is placed squarely where it should be: on German Nazis. 

This is not to say that there is no normalization between Israel and
Germany; there is. Germany has also payed (and is still paying)
compensation to Jewish survivors (by the way, since this thread is
about ignorance regarding the Holocaust, I want to stress that the
compensation is *not* for the dead but for loss of property etc; there
is no price for the souls lost, of course).

Anyway, I completely reject your assertion that Israel downplays the
role of Germany in the Holocaust for economical and/or political
reasons. And I wouldn't be making claims on such a sensitive topic
without studying the matter, which, it seems, you haven't.

Next topic on the agenda could be the complex set of relations between
Jews and Germans today, but this does not belong in this newsgroup.


-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: bart@sieppo.cs.tut.fi (Jaworski Bartlomiej)
Subject: Re: Sprawy gospodarcze - prywatny i panstwowy
Reply-To: bart@cs.tut.fi
Organization: Tampere University of Technology
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:24:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.164530.27069@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>, azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep8.074851.9699@newsroom.bsc.no> henryk@bsc.no (Henryk Modzelewski) writes:
|> >
|> >W/g danych nieoficjalnych (z Ministerstwa
|> >Przemyslu) sprywatyzowane jest ok. 32% gospodarki. Wplywy z sektora prywatnego
|> >do budzetu wynosza mniej jak 20%. Pisze mniej poniewaz dosc sprytnie wlicza sie
|> >do dochodow z sektora prywatnego takze indywidualny podatek dochodowy. Tak wiec
|> >odnosze wrazenie, ze sposob w jaki prywatyzowana jest gospodarka jakos nie
|> >stawia budzetu na nogi. Podkreslam, ze mam na mysli sposob prywatyzacji a nie
|> >sama prywatyzacje. 
|> 
|> Swieta prawda.

   DOBRZE MOWI DAC MU WODKI,

|> 
|> Andrzej Zaleski


   Bart Jaworski,
-- 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2476 soc.culture.jewish:15590
From: re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:18:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.8efMY8G00WB4NPSXh2
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

James Kahn writes:
Didn't the notorious Chelmecki massacre occur in Poland in 1648?  This was
perhaps the bloodiest attack on Jews in the 1800 years between
the Bar-Kochba rebellion and the Nazis.  Tens of thousands were killed.

I say:
I probably did not make clear enough that my statement *NO SIGNIFICANT
ANTISEMITIC ACTS* was referring to the attitude and action of the
Polish government (royalty).

Rad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: sunil@netcom.com (SUNIL DHINGRA)
Subject: Information regarding Polish firms wanted ?
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 01:25:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 


Hi,

I work for a Hong Kong based trading company and was trying to develop
trade with Polish companies in consumer electronics and computer products.
In an effort to do this I will be spending a month in Poland in October.

I was wondering if readers of this net could give me general information
as to where I could obtain a list of companies in Poland involved in this
business; how I could establish contact with them; are there any government
or private agencies in Poland which do consulting with foreign firms to help
them with there business, etc., ?

 Any information will be appreciated .

Thanks,

Sunil
408-971-6388

Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2482 soc.culture.jewish:15598