HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:08:55 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.



>But I'm sure Richard that you wouldn't dare express such an ignorant
>and biased opinion without trying homeopathics for yourself. That just
>wouldn't be open-minded.

You're missing the point: anecdotal evidence is nearly worthless. 
Statistically invalid evidence is no evidence at all. EVERY disease
has spontaneous remissions and cures. Would you invest your 401(k) in
lottery tickets based on the testimonials of lottery winners, or 
because you yourself once won five bucks? No. Why then bet your
health and life on therapies for which there is no good accounting?

(And what's with this insistence on personal experience to validate
a concept, anyway? Isn't thought and understanding enough to make 
something real for you? Do you have to stick your tongue in a light
socket to know that electricity can be dangerous?)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: terryk@encore.com (Terence M. Kelleher)
Subject: Re: Bates therapy & lazer glasses
Organization: Encore Computer Corp.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:30:30 GMT
	<1992Dec23.201505.25295@dgbt.doc.ca>

>>In article <1992Dec23.201505.25295@dgbt.doc.ca>, ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:


Ted> This Bates thing has been around for 50 years that I know about, and
Ted> probably a lot longer than that.  Surely, if there was something to
Ted> it, there should be lots of evidence by now.  If not, why not?
Ted> -- 
Ted> -----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted> Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada

In the book _20/20 Is Not Enough_ (1989) by Dr. Seiderman and Dr. Marcus,
they say:
	
	"For some, "vision therapy" may call up the image of eye
exercises, with the implication that it somehow strengthens our eys.
The idea of excersise is misleading. (Today's vision therapy should
not be confused with the routines prescribed by the "Bates Method"
that was popular several decades ago.)  The muscles of our eyes are
anywhere from fifty to one hundred times as strong as they need to be
to do the work we ask them: we need no vision push-ups."

And:

	"A school of thought that did believe myopia could be cured
was based on the theories of the American ophthalmologist William
Bates.  In his 1918 book _Better Eyesight Without Glasses_, Bates
prescribed a series of visual training exercises.  The Bates method
was popularized by Aldous Huxley in his bestselling book _The Art of
Seeing_.  The method enjoyed a vogue in the 1940's, but most people
found the training too long and tedious and the results too uncertain
to stay with it.  Its validity was never scientifically established."



So, the Bates thing has actually been around for better than 70 years,
and if Seiderman and Marcus are to be believed, is based on
strengthening of eye muscles rather than on refinement of the control
of those muscles.  

This book, by the way, does stress methods of vision therapy.  It
gives 27 cases of patients who were aided in vision correction through
therapy.  They also supply an 800 number for the "Binocular Vision
Associates", who can provide names of eye doctors who offer vision
therapy.. 1-800-245-2773.

I have no experience with any of this, other than reading the book
quite some time ago.  
--

                                 +----------------+
Terence Kelleher              +--+-------------+  |
Encore Computer Corp.         |  | E N C O R E |  |
terryk@encore.com             |  +-------------+--+
607-687-2644                  +----------------+
Xref: sparky misc.health.alternative:262 sci.med:23290
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med
Subject: Re: Orthomolecular Approaches to Medicine
Date: 31 Dec 92 18:55:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: pitt.17946
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Followup-To: misc.health.alternative
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <1h84lqINNbuq@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> fish@ecst.csuchico.edu (Kevin Haddock) writes:
>
>I'm not sure but I think one of the Nobel prises won by Linus Pauling
>was for the discovery of orthomolecular medicine.  Although he does


Heavens no!  He won the Nobel Peace Prize for his anti-war protests
and one in chemistry for work on the structure of collagen, I think.
The orthomolecular stuff came later and if they had come first he
likely wouldn't have gotten any Nobel Prize at all!


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski)
Subject: Herbal Abortifacients (Was: pennyroyal (was Re: Cold and Flu trea...))
Organization: The Information Deli - via Netcom / San Jose, California
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 20:20:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.221103.803@das.harvard.edu> bochner@das.harvard.edu
(Harry Bochner) writes:

>My herbals say that pennyroyal can trigger miscarriage in pregnant women.
>I figure that anything with that kind of effect on the (presumably?) hormonal
>system is probably not something that adult women should use casually, unless
>of course the hormonal effect is the desired one. I prefer to err on the side
>of caution, but am I overdoing it here?

There are other herbs to avoid during pregnancy as well, because they may
act as abortifacients; this is a list of some of the most common ones from
_The Holistic Herbal_, by David Hoffman: autumn crocus, barberry, golden
seal, juniper, male fern, mandrake, pennyroyal, poke root, rue, sage,
southernwood, tansy, thuja, and wormwood.

These all stimulate the uterus, which is something you most definitely
don't want to do during pregnancy -- but otherwise it's generally not a
problem.

Disclaimer: this isn't professional herbal or medical advice.  Consult
your qualified health care professional.

Pete
From: fish@ecst.csuchico.edu (Kevin Haddock)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Clinical Ecologists?
Date: 22 Dec 1992 00:29:55 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

Has anyone ever heard of Clinical Ecologists?  They have a society.  Are
there many members?  Is there still much research going on in this area?
Anyone ever been through thier programs?  Care to share your experiences
if so?  Also, what is the best way to find a holistic doctor in my area?
I have heard that sometimes cyropractors have more knowledge of this
area.  I don't really want to just randomly as doctors in my area because
I'm sure the response they will give me will be something like: "Hey,
you're in luck, I'm a holistic doctor, oh and don't forget to take your
anti-biotics!"
Xref: sparky misc.health.alternative:162 sci.med:23088
From: fish@ecst.csuchico.edu (Kevin Haddock)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med
Subject: Re: Orthomolecular Approaches to Medicine
Date: 27 Dec 92 01:13:22 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

In article <1992Dec26.100207.13492@dircon.co.uk> uad1214@dircon.co.uk (Peter Cox) writes:
>
>There seems to be some confusion about Linus Pauling here -
>perhaps I can help to clarify things by posting this from a
>book of mine (unfortunately, only published in the U.K.)
>Spellings are British. ============
>
>

Thanks so much for coming to my rescue here!  It seems I wasn't too
[...some teriffic stuff about Pauling deleted...]

far off.  What I remembered was from reading one of Pauling's books about
8 years ago.

Oh, and a short question for the good doctor who thought my comments were
preposterous and were "A couple of howlers about Pauling":

Could it be that we are educated beyond our intelligence?  hmmmm...... ;-)


-Kevin
fish@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

-------
Hackers do it with fewer instructions!
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: martyj@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (martin johnson)
Subject: Re: Bates method (natural vision improvement)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:00:19 GMT

shreeved@ece.orst.edu (David Shreeve) writes:


>    Not long ago a poster was asking about natural vision correction
>    and I wanted to share my experience with the Bates method.

>     The underlying assumption in Dr. Bates' approach to vision correction
>is that bad vision is caused by an error in control of the eye muscles;
>that in most cases, there is nothing organically wrong with the eyes (such
>as them being permanently misshapen or the lens permanently hardened), but
>rather there is a muscle control problem.
>     And the thrust of his argument: the malfunctioning eye muscles are in
>a state of strain which interferes with normal vision (whether the problem
>is myopia, hyperopia, presbyopia, etc.); it is possible to learn to relax
>these muscles back into a dynamic functional state.
>     So all the Bates "exercises" are actually eye relaxation techniques!
 
I spent about 1 week reading 8 hours per day in poor light when I discovered
that I could no longer focus on distant objects. Not reading for a few days
and getting enough sleep reenabled my distant vision, but it still
required several seconds to change focus from a near to far object or vice 
versa. I bought an incandecent desk lamp and made an effort to hold reading
material a few inches farther away than my usual ~12 inches. Every 10 
minutes while reading, I would stop and try to 'stretch' out my eyes.
By this I mean gradually focusing on more and more distant objects--
usually by slowly following a power line that ran from just outside my window
toward the horizon. After another week of this, my vision seemed to return
to normal. I did not need glasses then, and do not now--18 years later.
I maintain the above outlined routine whenever I do close work or reading to
this day. 
Since eyes are designed to focus at infinity when relaxed, I might have been
experiencing a spasm in the focusing muscles, although my only memorable
sensation was being unable to focus. I dont know where I got the idea to
'stretch'. 		 
 
--
______________________________________________
|  martin johnson      martyj@uiuc.edu       |
|  "mind your business", on first US coin    |
|____________________________________________|
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 21:55:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.202855.2659@news.mentorg.com> madhavn@madhavn.mentorg.com (Madhav Nerurkar) writes:
>This idea came up in a discussion with a friend whose wife has had a kidney
>transplant. To suppress rejection of the foreign kidney she is regularly
>given a drug called Cyclosplorin (not sure about spelling) by Sandoz. This
>medicine suppresses immune response and from what I could gather, in a 
>general way. 
>
>It seems that at an abstract level the symptom this drug induces is the same
>as in case of AIDS: suppression of immune response. Couldn't this drug then
>be used, in infinitesimal doses, as a medicine for AIDS ? Has homeopathy 
>been attempted for AIDS at all or is the immune response itself is the 
>mechanism homeopathy relies on ?
>
>I would appreciate comments and pointers.
>
There is a very thorough and specific process called a "proving" that is
used to determine what symptoms indicate a homeopathic remedy.  I think
that a weak immune system is not so much a symptom as are the
combination of diseases that affect AIDS sufferers.  They don't get
just any disease.  The specific diseases they do get indicates a
specific weakness in their healing ability, so treatment based on
the symptoms of these diseases would be called for for homeopathy.

Homeopathy does rely on the persons healing mechanism, so if it has
been completely destroyed, homeopathy is not likely to help.  By the
way, I avoid the term "immune system" because it indicates only
one part of the human healing capability.  The parts of this
capability that are in the mental and emotional sphere are ignored
by allopathy, and I don't want to reinforce that.

Both homeopaths and acupucturists have worked with AIDS and HIV+ patients.
A local acupuncturist has written a book about prevention of AIDS in
HIV+ people.  My homeopath has treated an AIDS patient.  He said the
treatment was going well but the patient was not cured (yet?).

>
>Thanks, Madhav Nerurkar
>
>Disclaimer: These are my opinions.


-- 
==============================================================================
A though for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Date: 23 Dec 1992 18:27:05 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


In article 4758@ultb.isc.rit.edu, rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Bob Vogel) writes:
> In article <schumach.725074807@convex.convex.com>, schumach@convex.com
>  (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:
> >In <1h8a3kINNk5q@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
> >>I'm certain that both TCM and homeopathy can successfully treat it [AIDS],
> >>however I can not provide case studies.
> >
> >Not surprising. Be sure to post some when you find them.
> >
> 
> In my humble opinion the above begins to border upon the <flames> type of
> approach to posting response that it would seem from previous posts that our
> creator and moderator is most anxious to avoid.  
> Purely as an intellectual exercise {and since I do think the basic question has
> merit} let us see if we can't rephrase the base concern less flameily and more
> constructively.
> 
> Is your certainity that both TCM & homeopathy can successfully treat aids based
> upon  a strongly held personal belief, anecedotal "medical" (just meaning
> ancedotal would not be medicine in the scientific, case study sense) evidence
> witnessed by yourself or others, or from some other source of conviction that
> perhaps you would be willing to share with us?
> 


Ok, let me reword my posting. First, please excuse the careless nature
of my past postings. I wasn't aware the I was about to be challenged
by those whose league I clearly am not in.

It is my belief that, based on casual conversations I've had with many
non-MDs and one MD, that case studies exist regarding the successful 
treatment of AIDS with Homeopathy and Traditional Chinese Medicine.
This statement clearly carries no weight whatsoever and was not meant
as proof of anything. Rather, it was just casual dialogue.

I am not motivated nor feel I have the time to pursue gathering information
regarding alleged case studies. My prime motivation concerning all my postings
up to this point was to share some new personal experience regarding homeopathy
and to engage in dialogue regarding other alternative medicine practices.

I wish to retract any statement which implies that I have proof or documentation
of anything outside of my own experience.

Since this alias is labeled misc.health.alternative, I would be curious
to know now whether or not future posts are going to be subject to such
aggressive scrutiny. I am not prepared to spend the time defending each and
every post, however biased and unsupported by facts, by those who apparently
aren't interested in alternative medicine in the first place.

Greg


Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Bob Vogel)
Subject: Re: eyes etc.
Reply-To: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:02:15 GMT

(much not inclded fromprevious post describing eye focusing problem and 
2 doctor visits)
>Is your eye care professional an optometrist or an opthalmologist?
>Does that person test you for glaucoma by checking our intra-ocular pressure?
The first doc was an optometrist.  He checked eye pressure with the "puff of air machine method".
The second do was an ophthalmologist (medical doctor who does eye surgery and the whole bit).  She checked eye pressure with the "little machine that actually
touches your eye method".  Both agreed in EVERY particular of their findings.  I'm a little farsighted, will need glasses at any minute.  The opthalomo says
the right eye is slightly (.5 in whatever scale they use) more farsignted than
the left.  They also dialated the eye and did a full perferial vision test.
Big computer and minature planaterium where they flash lights and you have to
hit a button when you see it.  I think it may tend to give audible clues to 
when it is flashing light or it could probably be learned after a few tests.

I did not include any of this detail originallly because I wasn't it would be
of interest.  I am most appreciateve of the replys so far.  I can only observethat while their findings make sense to me, they cannot explain my symptoms.  Itdefinitely seemed to me that anything outside their "standard" approach of glasses and surgery was just not documented and no good (I asked about exercises, diet to ward off glasses etc.--universaly said they won't help).
Caffeine and stress could be related to this.  I drink a lot of coffee, 2-10 cups/day and was under a lot of school related stress and doing a lot of reading
at the second incident.  The first I know stress was not an issue.
Further observations welcome.
Bob Vogel
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: War cry of the scientific
Date: 23 Dec 1992 21:54:24 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


'Where is the scientific proof!?`

With both traditional Eastern Medicine and Homeopathy (at least based on
my limited knowledge of either) there is no claimed relationship between
the disease itself and the medicine, herb or treatment. Rather the 
treatment works to bring the body back into balance allowing it to correct
the dis-ease naturally.

Because there is an unclear relationship between the actual bacteria, virus,
or whatever, and the medicine or treatment, there can never be the kind of
'proof' that some of you are demanding (or at least I am led to believe
based on my begining knowledge of such things).

Hell, you're all right, my asthma could have mysteriously disappeared all
by itself. In a court of law, I wouldn't have a chance in hell of proving
my case.

Who cares? I had nothing to lose, everything to gain and I recieved what
is clear to me to be positive results from an alternative treatment. Do I 
advocate every asthmatic stopping their medication and using homeopathy? NO!
My ND didn't suggest I stop using my inhaler. That would be foolish.

You'll never get the kind of scientific proof that comes from 'modern research',
there will always be someway for the skeptical to poke holes in any study, at
least I imagine this is so.

Based on the history I've read regarding homeopathic medicine, the principles,
and my own experience, I will continue to experiment for myself. After all,
what could be more scientific than experimenting?

Then again, this is all easy for me, I'm employed and well insured. I have
choices. Many others don't

Greg


Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
	<1992Dec23.171758.3859@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
	<BSIMON.92Dec23141255@elvis.stsci.edu>
	<1992Dec23.200102.6150@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 12:02:08 GMT

Homeopathy has been tested in double blind trials and in most of these
trials it has been shown to be effective. For a good summary of the
evidence see the following study:

"Clinical trials of homoeopathy.", Kleijnen, Jos; Knipschild, Paul;
ter Riet, Gerben; British Medical Journal, Feb 9, 1991 v302 n6772
p516(8).

--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera
From: rbennet1@neumann.une.edu.au (Robert Bennetts.)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Essiac Recipe???????
Date: 3 Jan 93 12:37:23 GMT


	Hi...

	Could someone please supply me with some information about preparing Essiac.
	Methods for collecting preparing drying, mixing the herbs etc., and ratios of the herbs, dillution method, and dosage would be good.
	I now the ingredients...

	Sheeps Sorell	(Rumex Acetosell)
	Turkish Rhubarb root 	(Rheum palmatum)
	burdock root	(Artium lappa)
	inner bark of slippery elm	(Ulvus Fulvia) (Sp??)

	Can anyone tell me of the availability of these herbs in Australia?

	Any help would be greatly appreciated...


          ----------------------------------------------
          |rbennet1@neumann.une.oz.au|   __    The Fish|
          |Ross Bennetts             |  /. \/| In The  |
          |Alstonville,NSW Australia |  \__/\| .sig    |
          ----------------------------------------------
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: echinacea
Date: 28 Dec 92 12:38:57 GMT
	<1992Dec26.190025.2798@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.

I believe the echinacea I took was the "Nature's Way" brand. I don't
think the brand I took was the problem though. In my opinion, most
herbal medicines only show their effect over a time scale of about 1 or
2 weeks and won't stop accute problems like colds if you start taking
them at the start of the cold.
--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: patty@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu (Patty Haley)
Subject: echinacea
Organization: Johns Hopkins Univ. Welch Medical Library
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:15:23 GMT

rticle 8 (1 more) in misc.health.alternative:
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Monday, 21 Dec 1992 22:09:17 EST
From: Len Alshan <LMACC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:    echinacea

Has anyone had any experiencing using echinacea.  If so, please tell me
type purchased (extract,power,pills) and dosage used.
Thanks
Len

Len:

I use echinacea that is *NOT* distilled from alcohol--the liquid kind.

I forget the name of the manufacturer, but I just use the instructions
on the back of the bottle when I am not feeling well, and I cut back
when I am.  Most books on alternative health and medicine can give you
instructions.  Also--ask the people in your health food store!!!

If you need the name of my brand, let me know, and I will check and 
email you back.

-Patty

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne)
Subject: Re: War cry of the scientific
Organization: ScotSoft Research
	<1992Dec24.025223.9273@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 17:07:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.025223.9273@netcom.com> kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski) writes:
   In <schumach.725153887@convex.convex.com> schumach@convex.com (Richard
   A. Schumacher) writes:

   >Now we get to the crux of the matter. Alternative medicines are fads for 
   >dilettantes, and last resorts for the desperate.

   Look, this newsgroup was chartered for the purpose of discussing therapies
   that are currently not accepted by scientific medicine.

   Therefore, discussing whether or not therapies-that-aren't-accepted-by-
   scientific-medicine are acceptable by scientific medicine is just pointless
   here.  It belongs somewhere else -- sci.skeptic, for instance.

I wondered how long it would take before someone would post this
comment here. Scientific discussion is supposed to be welcomed here, I
have mail (and copies of articles posted to news.groups by yourself)
assuring me that scientific criticism would be welcome and encouraged
in misc.health.alternatives. I suggest that you should be encouraging
posts like Schumachers.
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative