From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Subject: Re: Nabbing a car thief (was: car alarms)
Date: 19 Nov 1992 01:43:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64746.student.cwru.edu

In article <1eegh0INNg50@athena.sdsu.edu> dunster@sdsu.edu (mark dunster) writes:
>Presumably, then, you held this s.o.b. captive whilst waiting for the cops
>to arrive. I've often wondered about someone actually doing this, and now
>at long last I've discovered a real person who has. I'm intrigued:

	Sure, no problem.

>How did the cops react when they arrived on the scene? Did they order you 
>to drop your weapon? (after all, they don't know at first sight who's the 
>good guy).

	First on the scene was a cruiser with two officers. The way they
drove up to me, they were behind me. They told me not to turn around, to
place the gun gently on the ground, and step away. I promptly did. I didn't
worry, what if he runs, etc. It was no longer my problem, and all I had to 
do, was comply with the police. 

	However, it probably helped that my friend Ray had kept on the 911 
line afterwards, and notified them that the crook was being held at gun 
point. [ Ray was staying the night ] Also, at this point, he had 
turned on the outside lights. So, they were expecting it. They were even 
polite when they handcuffed me, they kindly informed me that it was SOP. ( I 
wasn't suprised in the least ) After theyhad handcuffed the crook, Ray had 
come out and they talked to him, brought out my wallet ( ID ), verified who 
I was, that this was my home, etc, and released me. It wasn't bad, and 
lasted only about 5 minutes or so. You just have to be cool, do everything 
exactly they say ( especially about setting the gun down ); don't start 
getting hysterical, and claiming civil liberties, etc. 

	At a scene, the police will never just assume that one who is 
holding a gun is the "good" guy. For everyone's safty, they will request one 
to put it down, and step away. For all they know, the one holding the gun 
could be the crook, who has grabbed the gun away, etc. Just comply with 
anything they say.


>What did they think of you holding a thief at gunpoint? Did they commend
>you, or were they a little pissed off (their recommendation is to never
>confront a thief if possible)

	Officially, they told me that it was dangerious to do so. However, 
they expressed their delight at nabbing a thief "red-handed". The particular 
area has a very bad theft crisis. And, the rates of even having a suspect, 
let alone getting a conviction is very low. After the trial ( I made a 
slight mistake in my earlier post. The defense attorney got a plea bargin. 
He pleaded guilty to (attempted) grand theft, in place of the origional 
grand theft auto. GTA carries a harsher sentence, but it would have been 
hard to prove the he intended to actually *steal* the car, and not just the 
radio. Garrenteed conviction, no trial appearence for me, and the courts 
hummed along- sounds good to me!) and everything was said and done, we met, 
and could talk candidly. One of them was into car stereo's, so we had some 
fun, went out to eat, talked, etc. It was easy to forget that they were 
"cops", and find out that they were really good human beings behind the 
badges.

>Is it actually legal to make a "citizen's arrest" of a car thief with 
>a gun?

	While I do not know the ins and outs of the law, I can state that I 
was never charged with any crime, nor notified that I was technically wrong, 
but just was not being prosecuted. I know it is one's right to defend one's 
home, and loved ones. I'm sure defending my car on my property is legal.


>How did you hold the thief? Did you make him stay lying on the floor, with
>his hands behind his head?

	He had his butt in the driver's seat, laying back, with his head
poking under the dash. In this particular car, it had a shafted radio. Using
some 1/8" alluminum strips about 2" wide [ from a local hard ware store ], 
I had created straps which fit over each side of the radio, with the shaft 
going through a drilled hole. These in turn were bolted to some metal 
supports in the dash. It couldn't be easily yanked or pulled out, much to 
his dislike. I guess he was trying to look under the dash to see what was
holding it back, etc. 

	I told him not to even breathe, or I'll blow his *&$! balls off. 
He didn't move.

>If he had decided to make a run for it, you presumably wouldn't want to 
>shoot him in the back (manslaughter I would think). My guess is that most 
>thieves would just make a run for it, and not give up quietly.

	Well, the position he was in, did not facillitate a quick run. It 
would've been awkward for him to quickly run. I have been asked if I would 
of shot or not. That I can not honestly answer. Sure, I can think about it 
at length. But, I wasn't thinking then, I didn't have time, it was all 
instinct. Anyone who's been in that position, or anything similar would know 
what I mean. Your heart and adrenilin are pumping. 

	I think I would have fired for the legs. It would of been an easy 
shot, as I was standing about 15 feet or so away. ( I wasn't about to get 
too close, if you know what I mean ) Second, if he had moved, it probably 
would of been an easy self-defense, as I did not, nor could not know if he 
was armed, and was going for a gun, or what. 

	Besides, I knew this punk by face. He knew he was caught, and was 
going down. And, he knew how I was, and how I felt. He probably had very 
little doubt that I would shoot, that I was not bluffing.

>Anyway, good job! Nail those son-of-a-bitch bastards! 
>Cheers, mark dunster
	
	Well, as much as I dispise theives, I have had much trouble 
reconciling my actions with myself. The question of if I would of shot, has 
nagged me. I keep having "what if" questions. And, I have had some emotional 
unstability from that night. I'm not particularly proud that I did it, 
However, if I were in the same situation again, I would probably react the 
same way.

	So, do I advise people to take "the law in their own hands"? No. Its 
a choice for anyone. I felt that in these circumstances, I knew the 
situation pretty well, and was in a minimun of danger. Besides, I was very
pissed at car theives at that point in time. Two weeks earlier, Ray's S-10 
was stolen, and stripped. They found it on the outskirts of the city. Not 
much usuable was left. 
Xref: sparky rec.audio.car:4924 alt.locksmithing:2018 alt.tasteless:12665