HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: National parks to be opened to strip mining
Date: 28 Sep 92 22:15:36 GMT
Reply-To: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <1992Sep28.191216.27259@midway.uchicago.edu> rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>I read a very disturbing piece of news picked up by the
>Chicago Tribune today.  It is potentially even more
>disastrous in its impacts than the US forest service
>timber management practices.

   ...

>Does anybody know more about this issue?  ...  

There was a major front-page article about this in the NYTimes today. 
I was going to post a warning, but you beat me to it. 

The NYTimes article goes into a great deal of detail.  In particular, 
they show a map indicating where the mining would occur (pretty much 
the band of coal states from W.Va through Ohio and Kentucky as I 
recall).  This suggests a political alliance of midwestern tree 
people with western tree people -- or of economic interests in both 
areas against the environmentalists.  Unclear right now. 

A key issue concerns the question of who was a bona fide miner in 
such areas when rules went in place in the 70's, and thus deserving 
of compensation if their grandfathered rights are not honored.  It 
could be that the compensation would be more valuable than mining 
the coal.  Apparently, one interpretation (the miner's) is that if 
you ever even thought about mining in an area, you are covered. 

This must be Bush's idea of an October Surprise!

--
J. A. Carr                                    |  "The New Frontier of which I  
jac@gw.scri.fsu.edu                           |  speak is not a set of promises
Florida State University  B-186               |  -- it is a set of challenges."
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute |   John F. Kennedy (15 July 60)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: JB <jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com>
Subject: Re: more bad reports on MSR filter
Organization: NT/BNR
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b3
     <1992Oct01.121557.7493@brtph560.bnr.ca>
     <1OCT92.16190558@nauvax.ucc.nau.edu> <lcmpicINNndk@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1992 11:59:55 GMT

In article <lcmpicINNndk@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> Bill, tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM
writes:
>How did you know it needed brushing?  Did water come out of the automatic
>pressure valve in the handle?  This is the normal indication that
brushing
>is required.

Yes, water came out the handle.  Not only is it distressing to see that
brushing is required YET AGAIN, your feet get wet.  IMHO the water
quality was good and clear. As recently as three years ago, the Minnesota
ranger stations didn't even suggest that filtration was required.  We
drank the water then directly, with no ill results.
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Altitude Sickness
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:47:12 GMT
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies

In article <1992Sep27.175505.21341@newross.Princeton.EDU>, egs@volkl (Emin Gun Sirer) writes:

 
> 	The patient has to be closely monitored for a long while as a mild
> case can quickly get worse and end up as HACE/HAPE.

Has anyone come up with treatment for that other, less-publicized 
condition HAFE (High Altitude Flatulent Expulsion)?  :-)


-- 
John Reece			"This lifeboat is full"	
Not an Intel spokesman 			- Neutral saying in WWII
From: mattb@ssc-vax (Matt Baney)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Monkeywrenching/USFS puppet
Date: 29 Sep 92 02:20:50 GMT
Reply-To: mattb@ssc-vax.boeing.com (Matt Baney)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Boeing Aerospace & Electronics

In article <10415@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:
>I strongly believe we need to require timber companies to pay their 
>way.  However we won't accomplish this by making unsubstantiated
>statements.  It would be helpful if you could provide references to
>your accusations.  Who quoted you the $12/1000 price?  How about a
>  ..
>We do this cause no favor by tossing around wild and unsubstantiated
>accusations.
Finally a glimmer of sanity peaks through in an issue muddled by
emotion and mis-information (on both sides).  If everyone who had an
opinion on this issue would keep the above in mind before the go off
the deep end everyone would be better off for it and we would be
much closer to making a reasonable solution to this problem that all
involved can live with??




-- 
|  Matt Baney         | Boeing Defense and Space Division    |
|  -----------------  |   Knowledge Systems Group            |
| "I can't tolerate   | UUCP:     ..!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!mattb |        
| intolerant people!" | Internet:   mattb@ssc-vax.boeing.com |
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: pjs@euclid.JPL.NASA.GOV (Peter J. Scott)
Subject: Re: Animals (summary)
Reply-To: pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:48:38 GMT

What, no marsupials?  Have we no readers down under?

-- 
This is news.  This is your       |    Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech
brain on news.  Any questions?    |    (pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov)
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: CAPILENE POLYESTER UNDERWEAR???
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:06:41 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Sep29.231517.23681@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky) writes:
>
>I will never buy any wool again ( well except for socks, where it's
>incompressibility is tops, and maybe gloves, but I want to try some fleece
>ones ).

After trying fleece mits (inside a shell) for ice climbing, I've
rejected them.  They work fine for the first hour or so, but after
that they become soaked and clammy and loose effectiveness.  Dachstien
wool mits are far superior, in that they stay comfortable when wet.


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: Brian.K.Sward@dartmouth.edu (Brian K. Sward)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: PEAK 1 pack by Coleman
Date: 1 Oct 92 04:05:11 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <2022@coyote.UUCP>
jeffs@almaden.ibm.com (Jeff Schneiter) writes:

> I have just received a hand-me-down from my dad, the PEAK 1 by Coleman.
> Never been used. Standard frame.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with this one? How much have you been able to
> carry? For how long of a trip? How well does it wear? etc...

I've had a Peak1 pack since 1984, and it has held up relativly well. 
With a very large (1400 cu in) fanny pack strapped on I've used it on
quite a number of trips, including two 10+ day 100+ mile hikes.  The
adjustability is the main reason I bought it when I was young, but it
has proved to be well built and durable.

One advantage of the plastic frame is that it has plenty of sports to
attach things.  For my last trip I rigged a camera harness to go
through the slots at the top.  A second plus is that the frame can't be
destroyed by baggage handlers (read: gorrillas) I just pack mine in a
large denim bag and zip-tie it shut.

I have however replaced the original hip belt with the newer model from
the top of the line peak1 pack ($40 last summer) which greatly improved
the comfort.

Overall, I'm thoroughly satisfied with the pack

Brian Sward
Dartmouth College
brian.sward@dartmouth.edu
From: dudley.chi@xerox.com (Tim Dudley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: being safe in the woods
Date: 30 Sep 92 15:34:07 GMT
Organization: bnr
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b3

Douglas N. Ritter writes:
>
>I'm big, mean, hairy and I smell bad...
>

Does the Sasquatch Society know about you yet???       :-)

Tim
From: egedi@ahwenasa.cis.upenn.edu (Dania M. Egedi)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: more bad reports on MSR filter
Date: 2 Oct 92 14:37:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: netnews.91420

In article <lcmpicINNndk@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
|> egedi@ahwenasa.cis.upenn.edu (Dania M. Egedi) writes:
|> > 
|> > I've operated the MSR using my left hand and my knees.  I got tired
|> > of pumping slightly quicker, but it was quite doable.
|> 
|> I can't visualize this.  Perhaps you could send me a digitized photo?
|> The problem with left-handed pumping is that when you turn the unit
|> around, the intake hose faces towards you rather than towards the pot
|> of unfiltered water, so that the hose kinks up and flow ceases.

Oh yes, I have a digitized photo of this handy.  :-;

OK, two issues - left-handed pumping and 1 handed pumping.  The
left-handed is the easier of the two, in my opinion.  You simply drape 
the hose over your arm so it runs in a smooth arc instead of doubling
back immediately and pinching itself.  That's not hard.  Us left-
handed people are used to making adjustments for things made for 
right-handers and that's one of the easier ones.

One handed pumping is harder.  I though that this was what you were
talking about in your original post, since left-handed pumping was
a simple matter.  Pumping when your right hand is totally useless.
This involves placing the pump between your knees (the water bottle should be actually screwed on) at a slight downward tilt.  The pump 
should be turned so that the handle is toward your left hand.  Pump
away!  Some people had to use their heels to help keep the pump from
moving (i.e. they were sitting on a log with their heels below and
underneath them.  Rather hard to describe, I suppose, but I really
don't have a picture.  Sorry.

I notice my left-handedness much less in the outdoors than I do in
everyday life.  I notice it with my MSR stove when I tend to reach
across the flame to adjust it.  Of course, it works out better when
lighting it, since I can't 'flick a bic' with my right hand to save 
my life.  I can adjust the knob with my right and light the lighter 
with my left and eveything works out dandy.  What do all you poor right
handers do?  Reach across the flame?  Turn on the gas and then
pick up the lighter?  Or can most people start a lighter with either
hand?  Maybe I should practice that....  :-)

 - Dania
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dania Egedi, IRCS Research Programmer		egedi@ahwenasa.cis.upenn.edu
Room 400C, 3401 Walnut St.			work:  (215) 898-0365
Philadelphia, PA 19104

"One sign of an impending nervous breakdown is the belief 
that one's work is terribly important"
From: pgf@cayman.COM (Paul Fox)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Baby Joggers on Trails
Date: 29 Sep 92 22:24:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge Ma

: instead, or if you need to carry a load, getting a 
: donkey.  Donkeys can carry your kid plus probably 50-60
: pounds of gear.
: .
Ahhh -- _now_ we're talking intrusion into a wilderness area.... :-)
-- 
		paul fox, pgf@cayman.com, (617)494-1999
		Cayman Systems, 26 Landsdowne St., Cambridge, MA 02139
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sawicki@src.dec.com (Filip Sawicki)
Subject: Re: Campground safety (was Re: No alcohol, etc in NP.)
Cc: vleppert@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Organization: DEC Systems Research Center
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 02:01:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep22.002255.4078@news.acns.nwu.edu>, vleppert@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Valerie Leppert) writes:
|> A gender specific topic if you are a man might be any of the following:
|> 1. Do you feel obligated to carry more than your share of the weight (per
|> 2. Do you feel that the bulk of the responsibility for direction finding,
|> 3. Do you avoid camping with women because they slow you down or don't take
|> For a woman:
|> 1. Do you dislike camping with men because you feel they don't let you take
|> 2. Do you think the guy should carry more weight if you are the same size?
|> and I'll add a couple that I know of since I'm female
|> 3. What do you do about menstrating in the backcountry, birthcontrol,
|> 4. Do boot manufactuers actually make women's boots or are they just
|> I hope it's food for thought.


Sure it is. And here are some observations from my mountaneering club:

1. During year-long curses to be a mountain guide, there is almost NO distinction
between men and women; this is even more visible during 3-week trekking camp
beeing a practical examination of your skills and endurance (20+ miles and 4hrs
sleep a day). If you are going to lead a group of "amateurs", and be responsible
for their safety, you have to be able to find a way in any conditions, set the
fire in the rain, know first aid, and so on, right? Even more important, you have
to be able to stand everything, and to be the last one to sit down and cry "I
can't go on anymore!" --- in case of real troubles, you may have to go alone
several miles away to find help or whatever. 
   So, man or woman, you get the same training, though of course at the fire it
is men who will chop the wood or go for water if it is far away.

2. As for load, the rule of thumb is cruel: it is your own problem. All the food,
however, is divided so that rations for men are twice heavier than for women. In
addition, only men have to carry heavy equipment like kettles, axes, and a guitar
(obligatory on those camps !). You carry a tent with your tentmates, and if the
women prefer to sleep together --- they carry it.
   And, if it is your day to lead, expect to be rewarded with 4-pound first aid
kit to carry.

3. About 10% of begginers a year get to the final trek, and 30% of them are
female. They are no Amazons or body-builders, just (almost) normal women.

4. The club itself has about 40% of women, and at the time of classification for
foreign expeditions (Norway; Caucasus; Pamir), sex does not matter at all, but
rather your interaction with other people and your previous records. During the
trips, the same rules apply as above.

OBJ:

During one of those exam trips one woman failed miserably to find a direction.
Asked by the instructor: 
	"So, where is your woman intuition gone?",
she shot back immediately:
	"You know, at those trips you stop being a woman ..."

(I hope this answers your F-3 question ;-> )

fi.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: An Insight
From: derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 21:24:25 GMT
Organization: Fujitsu New Zealand

In article <sandrock.718037633@aries> sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) writes:
>trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
>>The planet is a lot like your body.  Cut or bruise it a little and it will
>>heal.  (This process never ceases to amaze me.)  Beat it up a little worse,
>>and scar tissue will form.  Push it too far, and it will die.
 
>Are you sure about that?  Perhaps it is the "offending" species that is
>ultimately threatened with extinction rather than the earth.
 
We are currently in the throws of a mass extinction event which may rival that
of the dinosaurs.  Species are dissapearing at an alarming rate.  

The world won't care.  There have been many such mass extinctions.  The 
dinosaurs demise merely being the most popularly described.  The difference 
now is the cause of this event.   Not colliding continents,  not ice ages,  
not meorite impacts but good ole' us.




-- 
Derek Tearne. -- derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz --  Fujitsu/ICL New Zealand -- 
Some of the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental
consequences of an accident with the new Iridium enriched fusion reactor.  
"If it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive..." they said.
From: diverson@phys.ksu.edu (David Iverson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Encountering contraband in the backcountry
Date: 3 Oct 1992 04:22:41 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: bohr.phys.ksu.edu

In <1992Oct2.233521.26251@newshost.lanl.gov> mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson) writes:

>where I would tread *very* carefully, and would expect her to do likewise,
>because it is a notorious "drop zone" for duty-free shipments of interesting
>imported alkaloids.  Another place (Dale Redd and I swapped notes on this one


Hey, this really got me thinking.  From prime-time news shows, news-paper
articles, jungian group conciousness or whatever, I've got this weird
impression of backcountry marijuana patches, coca plantations, etc... that
supposedly litter the American backcountry that are defended by booby-traps,
men with machine-guns, etc...

So, has anybody on this network ever had such an encounter?  Do you know of
any friends who have died 'mysterious deaths' in the backcountry?

I'm sure that any average grower would avoid touristy areas, but then again,
so do we.  I've done some bushwhacking in decidedly non-scenic areas and
I've never seen anything. 

A related phenomenon would be Covert Government listening posts, transmitter
stations.  But they're pretty well documented.  And I've actually run across
one or two antenna's coming out of small concrete buildings, surrounded by
high fences and razor-wire.  Could be Forest Service or CIA, who knows.  But
what about this drug thing?

-David

--
diverson@phys.ksu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: hens@snipe.cray.com (Tom Stephens)
Subject: Re: North Face Bullfrog
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:07:57 CDT


In article <Sep28.183258.30332@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
> In article <1992Sep25.130545.26885@walter.cray.com> hens@snipe.cray.com (Tom Stephens) writes:
> >
> >In article <717271794snx@kaijen.ka.sub.org>, kai@kaijen.ka.sub.org (Kai Jendrian) writes:
> >> 
> >Although I do not have a Bullfrog, I do own a North Face tent, a VE24.  This tent has performed wonderfully for me.  I have never taken it to Mount Everest or anything, but I have winter camped in it and been in some nasty storms.  As I understand it, th> e shape of a bullfrog is not that condusive to storms, is it?  My ve24 is a geodesic, which stands up pretty well in the wind.
> 
> My VE24 stands up fairly well in the winds, but I think the back as to face
> the wind.  With the side facing the wind, I've had to pile stuff against the
> windward wall to keep it from collapsing.  (We're talking strong winds).
> 
> -- 
> 
> -Wayne Trzyna
>  trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU


I have the back of the tent face the wind too, if at all possible.
--
---------------------------------
Tom Stephens
Corporate Computing and Networks, Chippewa Falls, WI
Cray Research Inc.  hens@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: rlm@sunlight.Physics.UIowa.Edu (Robert Mutel)
Subject: Re: more bad reports on MSR filter
Keywords: MSR water filter
Organization: Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Iowa
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 03:15:00 GMT

I've used my MSR filter for two summers now, after several miserable years with a First Need. After an initial bad experience with the paper filter clogging in the BWCA [described in a previous post last year], I have had several extended (1 week or so) trips in Colorado and Washington (State) with no particular trouble. The metal mesh needs to be cleaned every 6-10 liters pumped, but it only takes a few seconds and it's much better than clogging the carbon or paper filters. It's definitely easier to use t


han the First Need and lasts much longer. The problem with clogging of the paper element is probably caused by very particulate-infested water, either glacier till or organic debris (esp. BWCA). I now avoid really silty streams and have probably pumped 500 liters without any trouble or replacement parts. The only maintenance needed is an occasional application of vaseline to the pump mechanism to prevent squeaking. In sum, I think it's well designed and worth the $$ in the long run.
-- 
Robert Mutel
Department of Physics and Astronomy
University of Iowa
Iowa City IA 52242

Telephone: 319-335-1950      FAX: 319-335-1753
Email: rlm@sunlight.physics.uiowa.edu  (internet) 
       iowa::rlm (span)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Tree spiking (Was Re: Monkeywrenching)
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 18:22:07 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   Wed, 23 Sep 1992 02:58:57 GMT
>FROM:   Scott Herod <sherod@news.Colorado.EDU>
>Tree spiking can kill people.  If a large saw mill blade hits a spike
>it can shatter and send shrapnel around the mill.

As a matter of curiosity: does anyone know any actual numbers about tree
spiking? Like: any estimates of the number of already-spiked trees 
lurking out there? Number of spiked trees that have turned up in 
sawmills? Number of chainsaws that have encountered spikes in trees? 
Number of logger and/or sawmill worker casualties as a result? (Of 
course, I'm speaking here only of deliberately planted, eco-combatant 
spikes, not inadvertent ones.)

It would be an interesting departure for the tree-spiking discussion if 
it could be brought down from the plane of speculation and moral 
philosophy into the humdrum arena of fact.
From: micki@netcom.com (Michelle Stone)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: An Insight
Date: 28 Sep 92 23:00:50 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC) writes:


>A few years back I read a really tasty book, called 
>"Beyond Spaceship Earth" (edited by Hargrove, 1988?, Sirra Club Books).  
>It's a collection of papers concerning man's future envolvement
>with space.   All sort of nifty ethical questions. 
>Some "down to earth",  progressing to the far out.
>Like control of space junk.  Nucks in space.
>Control of artificial satalites.  


I have often wondered.... since there isn't any wind or any other erosion 
on the moon... haven't we already polluted it with .... footprints?

Michelle
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: redd@mpx2.lampf.lanl.gov (Dale Redd -- MP-6 Operations)
Subject: Re: Altitude Sickness
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: LAMPF Data Analysis Center, Los Alamos, New Mexico
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:33:00 GMT


I've got a couple of friends who are ski area employee's; one at Santa Fe and
one at Taos.  They say that one of the most common injury/health problems at
these areas is people coming from low elevations and failing to aclimate them-
selves to the 11,000+ ft. altitudes encountered there.  Apparently, there
have been deaths as a result of severe altitude sickness, so it's not something
one wants to take chances with.

According to advice I've heard, most people can adjust to increased altitude up
to ~12,000 ft. with just a day or so of taking it easy and allowing the body to
adjust breathing and heart rates.  Of course this will not work on 100% of the
people 100% of the time.

Disclaimer:  I've lived and skiied here in N.M. for years at altitudes up to
12,000+ ft. and I live at 6500 ft. and I still occasionally get dizziness and
shortness of breath when engaged in brisk physical activety at high altitude.
Be careful.

Dale

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Identifying snakes
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:00:03 GMT

I often see snake tracks in the trail dirt before coming across a snake.
The tracks increase my alertness level.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry