From: ajh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Hu)
Subject: Re: Interracial Dating FAQ (was Re: Montel Williams Show)
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:16:54 GMT

In article <2213@usna.NAVY.MIL> wdw@math1.sma.usna.navy.MIL (Wm. Douglas Withers -- math  FACULTY <wdw@sma.usna.navy.mil>) writes:
>(Almost) all the responses to my original query made most interesting
>reading.  In particular, I would like to respond to some of Mr. Hu's
>comments.
>
>1. In article <1992Sep30.220727.25293@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
>ajh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Hu) writes:
>>[The following is meant to represent a question coming from someone like
>>Mr. Withers, and is not meant to represent Mr. Hu's point of view:]

	Hey!  You're putting words in my mouth.  NEVER did I imply that
	you or "someone like Mr. Withers" had any attitude like this.
	These are actual explanations that racists regularly like to
	propose.  Everything I've written here, I've seen posted here
	before.  But I am certainly *NOT*, nor have I ever, claimed
	that these attitudes are endemic to certain ethnic groups.

>>4.  That's easy to explain -- Asian guys are too sexist, or Asian guys
>>	look feminine, or Asian guys have language and social-skill
>>	problems, or Asian guys are geeks, or Asian guys are wimpy, or
>>	Asian guys have small penes.  Besides, it makes sense that
>>	Asian girls are in heavy demand, since they're oh so sexy
>>	and nice and, like ultra-feminine, and they know how to treat
>>	a man right, and if there are any hot Oriental I mean Asian
>>	babes out there, please send me some email, 'cause I'm a really
>>	nice guy.  Right?
>
>Tsk tsk.  It seems that even we white-bread, European-ge, American-cu
>(sorry for introducing this cumbersome nomenclature) males are not safe from
>stereotyping.  But no hard feelings; in fact, I'll be doing some stereotyping
>of my own before the end of this message.

	Tsk, tsk, yourself.  See above.

>
>2. Mr. Hu, I never saw that you make any distinction between Asian-ge Asian-cu
>(sorry again for lumping such variety under the heading `Asian-cu') and
>Asian-ge American-cu.  I get the impression that you are only considering
>American-cu.  Perhaps the issues are different for Asian-cu and Asian-ge
>American-cu?

	Yes, perhaps they are different.  But considering that this
	group is soc.culture.asian.*american*, and considering my
	opening remarks about talking about Asian *Americans*, not
	Asians in Asia, I don't think extended discussion of Asian
	mating practices is appropriate for this group.
>
>3. I noticed one inconsistency in your media brainwashing theory; to wit,
>that AAM are brainwashed into finding CF attractive while CM are brainwashed
>into finding AAF attractive.

	Good points.  My responses:  1.  The trendiness in the media
	of Asian-American women is fairly recent.  Until recently,
	Asian-American actresses mainly got to play prostitutes.
	Now, they get to play generic sex objects as well.
	2.  It's not so much a question of white men being brainwashed.
	There's a strong stereotype of Asian-American women, being
	shy, quiet, demure, submissive, virginal, while simultaneously
	exotic, sexually skilled, and happy to have any man, especially
	a white one, that certain segments of the population find
	particularly attractive.  Other men may buy into a redhead
	stereotype or a blonde stereotype.  The key factor is that
	the stereotype of Asians (and therefore Asian Americans) is
	so markedly sexually delineated.

				I believe there's some truth to your theory,
>but you need to work on the details.  In particular, if Asian-ge American-cu
>males have special trouble getting girls, perhaps a major reason is indeed
>that they are victims of Hollywood.  I am not thinking so much of *how*
>Asian-ge males are depicted as *whether* they are depicted at all.  I don't
>remember many movies where the male romantic lead was an Asian-ge (but I've
>seen some).  But there are many categories of people who are victims in this
>way (accountants, overweight people, ...).

	Again, good points.  As you point out, to a first-order
	approximation, Asian Americans don't exist in the American
	media.  At a finer level, the stereotypes appear.  Similarly,
	technical and heavyset people are stigmatized as unattractive
	in our society.  However, the stigma isn't gender-aligned;
	American society doesn't hold fat women to be highly-desirable
	sex objects, whereas fat men are contemptible and asexual. 
	This particular warpage is exactly what's going on with Asian
	Americans.

>
>4.  My original question, if you recall, had to do with resentment.  In your
>whole list of questions, this is one that you never addressed directly. I

	Hmm.  Questions 1 and 2 pretty much spell it out.

>must say I don't perceive any resentment towards AAF in your message
>(although it is to be found in some of the other replies I received).

	Oh, I see.  You were looking for resentment *in me*, not
	the analysis I was writing.  OK.  I don't carry resentment
	towards Asian-American women; that's why you didn't see
	any in my post.  I do pity people (of any race and either
	gender) with low self-esteem, which is sometimes related
	to this issue.
>
>5.  Very little discussion, so far, of the role of CF in this situation.
>After reading, for example, Mr. Dale's reply, I might suggest that, if
>an AAM must resent someone for this situation, CF might be a more appropriate
>target than AAF (*not* that I'm advocating resentment).  

	I don't advocate resentment either.

>
>Now here comes the stereotyping.
>
>My own dating experience (a looong way back; I've been married for twelve
>years) included both American-cu and Asian-cu women.  I developed a
>marked preference for Asian-cu women over American-cu but (Wait! Wait!
>Don't shoot yet!)

	No bullets unless you can't distinguish -cu from -ge, or
	assume one implies the other.

			I state in my own defense that Asian-cu women also
>seemed to like me much better than American-cu.  For example, Asian-cu
>women seemed more likely to find intelligence or education an attractive
>trait in a man than American-cu.
>
>I never have figured out just what it is that American-cu women look for
>in a mate.  I've seen several polls of American (presumably mostly
>American-cu) women in which they express no little disappointment in their
>choice of mates.  Recently after observing the romantic tribulations of several
>close Asian-cu friends I developed the following theory:
>
>American-cu women are like those hotels where you check in and the remote
>control for the TV is bolted to the nightstand.

	So are you saying Asian-cu women don't have their remote
	controls bolted down???  I don't know, but I don't like
	to think of women as hotel rooms (or as things in general),
	but if you've got remote control on women, maybe I should
	shut up and listen to you instead... :-)

						--Alan Hu
>
>That is to say, American-cu women seem to maintain a reserve of mistrust
>for their own protection.  One can hardly blame them, given the low levels
>that some American-cu men can sink to, but all the same, it takes some
>of the fun out of the relationship.  (American-cu women out there?  Feel
>free to call me names.  But I am *not* saying this is your fault.)
>
>I would like to thank also the others who responded to my query.
>
>Flames? Comments? Anyone?
>-- 
>Els Withers                   email: wdw@math2.sma.usna.navy.mil
>Department of Mathematics     phone: (410)267-3192 / fax: (410)267-4883
>United States Naval Academy
>Annapolis, MD  21402-5002     Senri no tabi mo ippo yori...


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