HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 04:28:33 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      a Remark that caused a furor

In response to a post on "Scary Headlines," Sieg Aurigh wrote"

 > Fortunately Catholic does not mean Christian, as do Baptist or
American!!

Several listmembers promptly jumped on him for his anti-Roman
Catholic statement. This surprised me, since it seems obvious to me
that the statement is not an expression of anti-RCC feeling, but an
attempt to use sarcasm to poke fun at those who hold such views. The
giveaway is the "or American." Some listmembers might defend the
statement that all Christians are Baptists, and certainly any
Baptist would defend the statement that all sincere Baptists are
Christians; but what listmember would say that all Christians are
Americans? Who would say that all Americans are Christians? Indeed,
it is standard practice to deplore the fact that so few Americans
are Christians.  If, as I suppose, his comments were meant
ironically, then the replies to him largely missed the point.

When I was an undergraduate, I lived in an all-male dorm. We were
allowed female guests only on Sunday afternoons, and our doors had
to be open at least 45 degrees. One student wrote to the school
paper, "What is this 45 degree business? Surely it is nothing but an
attempt to accomodate evil half-way! Let us unite in demanding that
all doors be kept open a full and decent 90 degrees!" He got several
letters denouncing him for his narrow-minded fanaticism.  In fact,
he was on the same side of the question as his critics.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 15:38:34 -0500
From:         "N. L. Tinkham" <nlt@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: St Luke

Claude Garner asks:

>    I just saw a request on our department list asking if anyone knew
> the cause for which St. Luke is the patron saint. Does anyone out
> there have the answer?

The Avenel Dictionary of Saints, by Donald Attwater, says

        St. Luke is the patron saint of physicians and surgeons, and
        also of painters of pictures.  He was himself a great artist in
        words, and his narratives have inspired many masterpeices of art;
        but the existing pictures of the Blessed Virgin which he is
        said actually to have painted are all works of a much later date.
_____________________________________________________________________________

                                              Nancy Tinkham
                                              nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:34:54 EST
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: TEST

Samuel,

       But there were no questions on your test!    :)  God bless you.
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:41:21 -0500
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Abusive relationships

>It's so confusing to her, and me for that matter, how the *professionals*
>in the counseling realm of the world, say that once an abuser always an
>abuser, well not always, but almost always.  But...that a christian
>counselor will tell the husband *Yes, you *can* change*  With God's help
>anything is possible.  The problem is that he uses that against her.
>Her counselor is telling her about the cycle of abuse and his counselor
>is telling him that he *can* change, and just be patient.  She's just
>scared that once he quits counseling, or something really major happens
>like a loss of job, etc. he will just go back to his old ways.  I guess
>there are no guarantees.

Julie, is her counselor a Christian?  Her husband can definitely be
changed thru the grace of our Lord.  I know that our Lord can heal him
and bring good out of this situation.

On the other hand, I feel a separation might give him time to really
reflect on what is important and in the meantime protect her and the
children from the emotional abuse.

Please let both of them know that people are lifting them up in
prayer.

                                                Liz
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:25:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Rainbow-7 & Other Things

<    Let's not go get the guys with the real guns shooting kids. No! Let's
<solve the problem by getting rid of the play guns.

Funny, last I heard, gun control was a liberal idea.  Rush wants these guys
with real guns to be able to get them at the local supermarket!

<    So he says "We've got to get rid of those fake syringes." In the
<mean time, we in America are giving away clean needles to people. "We're
<going to stop the spread of disease. We're going to give away clean
<needles. Here, use this needle, it's clean if you're going to do drugs."
<Pssssht... Yet a kid with a fake needle, it's a pencil? "We've get that
<fake needle away from that kid." Now, what kind of sense does that make?

First, perhaps Mr. Limbaugh might do well to ask what this principle thinks of
giving needles to users.

Second, Mr. Limbaugh might do well to meditate upon the diffrence between
non-drug using children we wish to keep that way, and drug using adults we'll
settle for keeping alive until we can get them off the drugs.

Dan
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:14:55 EST
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Eternal Security: supporting your argument

On 12/10/92 at 06:49:13 jesse i. carnes said:
>Dear Bernice ;

>I agree with you that ANY person can say "Lord, Lord ..." but not necessarily
>be a true Regenerate Christian.  But the poignant question may be whether some
>oen who has been Regenerated by God's Spirit can ever be lost, bearing mind
>Jesus' words where He said that "it is the will of my Father that all whom He
>has given to me, I should lose NONE of them (see John 6:38-40)."

Jesse,Jesus said that but to use your own tactics, please define who
and what are "all that he has given to me".   All those that cry "Lord,
Lord.  Or not all those who cry "Lord, Lord.  We can't know the heart of
man but we can see those who appear to love God and obey him.  Still only
God knows the heart of his children and therefore he calls them.  And
there is more to having Christ in your heart than just accepting him.
I can accept a job as a waitress but if I don't wait the tables, I will
be fired.  Maybe this is not a good way to describe following Jesus, but
I am at a loss for better words at this time.


>Jesse Carnes
Bernice
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:14:02 CST
From:         jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      jeffrey dilcher, i presume.

dear jeff ;

my test message failed, apparently.
so E-mail writing is a bit difficult for my towards you, however it seems
that you can write E-mail to me.

oh well.  we just have to trust the Lord in such things.


jesse irwin carnes
middleton library
lsu
baton rouge, la
(notjic @ lsuvm)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Tools of the Deceiver (was Teaching children)
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 02:55:47 GMT


Jim Coen writes an article I largely agree with, and then says:

> The prince of this world, the destroyer, the deceiver, the liar, is
> preying upon our children. Television, movies, music and peer pressure
> are his greatest allies in this battle for your children and mine.

I do not agree with the last sentence.  Motion picture/broadcast/recording
technology are tools (well, groups of tools) -- and nothing more.  They
can be used by people for good or ill, but in & of themselves they are no
threat to anyone.

These three forms of entertainment/information do lead to one of the two worst
things for us, which are the two greatest tools for deceit.  Abuse of these
media can lead to Ignorance -- ignorance of others, of ourselves, of the world
around us.  In short, ignorance of everything important; even ignorance of
what is important and what is not.

Peer pressure isn't really much of a tool, though it can be used and
manipulated by skilled speakers (or entertainment people, which sort of links
us to the previous paragraph).  But it's not necessarily bad -- whether it is
bad depends on who the `peers' being listened to are.

Peer pressure can certainly help Ignorance along -- being pressured to agree
with the group even if the group is wrong -- but that is not its nastiest
result.  The nastiest result of peer pressure is Hate.  Hating the person who
is different; hating the group that disagrees; hating those who "rock the
boat".  Hate is Satan's most powerful weapon.  It's easy to give in to, it's
easy to rationalise ("I only hate Adolph Hitler, so that's okay"), and it's
easy to overlook ("I don't _hate_ that ACLU lawyer, but I wish he'd just shut
up and leave us alone").


I agree with Mr Coen that the media he mentioned can be used in bad ways, but
blaming the technology itself, or thinking that the technology itself is an
ally of Satan, is a mistake.  Technology, and peer pressure, are only of use
to Satan in that they can be used to develop _real_ weapons which can do real
damage.

And there are other ways to create those weapons, not requiring TV or schools
full of worldly kids: rotten families, lousy churches, taking advantage of
weaknesses in those who represent God -- lots of things can be used to make
a person hate someone, and lots of things can be used to keep people in the
darkness of ignorance.

The number of sources for hate and ignorance is too large -- you cannot lock
all of them out.  What you need to watch for is those weapons themselves, not
the different things Satan might use to create them.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"`Love thy neighbor' does not have an escape clause in case ones neighbor
 is not a member of one of the approved religions." -- Bill Smith
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:22:25 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Two questions

> Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:58:31 -0600
> From: MARCHIBOLD%MSCD.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject:      Re: Two questions
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
>
> BEING a homosexual is not a sin.  That's like saying that brown hair
> is sinful.  Christian morality teaches that sex outside of a commited
> monogamous, heterosexual relationship is sin. Any other kind of sin
> I mean any other kind of sex, be it heterosexual or homosexual is sin.

The list of people who will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven includes
"homosexual *offenders*", not just "homosexuals".  While I am not a
Greek scholar, and thus I don't know if the semantic distinction exists
apart from the English translation, I believe the intent is to specify
those who practice, not those who struggle against their "orientation"
(whatever that really means).


> PLEASE EVERYONE distinguish between identity - which isn't something
> someone chooses - and life style which is and which is not a necessary
> outgrowth of the identity.

This is a point well taken.  Although it is debatable whether one's
"orientation" is ultimately chosen at some point or other, one's
activities certainly are.  Consider homosexuality a stumbling block,
like greed.  We are all subjected to temptation, and the hardest
temptations to resist are the ones around our stumbling blocks.  We do
not sin by being tempted to keep the money in the wallet we find, but
by giving in to that temptation and actually keeping it.

While I know that some consider it offensive when Christians say that
homosexuality is something that they will "get over", as they consider
it part of their identity, the parallel still exists.  A Christian with
a problem with greed should pray to overcome that stumbling block.
When that happens, the Christian is *better* able to be himself, as
that stumbling block no longer obscures him or holds him back.
Likewise, Christians with homosexual tendencies should pray to overcome
that stumbling block, so that their true identities can be *better*
revealed.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 08:39:32 MET
From:         Claus Tondering <ct@LOGIN.DKUUG.DK>
Subject:      Re: christmas - not christs birth
              18, 92 9:57 am

Ian Williams writes:
> Lets all remember that December 25 is basically a pagan celebration
> and most probably Christ was not born on this date.

You are probably right. Some people say that it is unlikely that
shepherds would be lying in the fields at night during winter,
which even in the Middle East can be quite cold.

> It is more probable
> that it is somewhere between July and October.

What do you base that on?

Yours in Christ,
Claus Tondering
Denmark
E-mail: ct@login.dkuug.dk
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:36:36 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Answers to "DECIPHER THE CANTICLES...SEASON"

Forwarded note from bit.listserv.christia.   --Madge
----------------------------------------------------
******   START OF FORWARDED MESSAGE   ******

>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
>Subject: Re: Answers to "DECIPHER THE CANTICLES...SEASON"
>Sender: news@infodev.cam.ac.uk (USENET news)
>Organization: U of Cambridge, England
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 00:05:58 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92121211094240@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU> Madge McBurney
<ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:

>23.  May the Deity Bestow an Absence of Fatigue to Mild Male Humans.
>     * God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen *

Sorry to be a pedant, but this one doesn't work. "God Rest Ye Merry
Gentlemen"
is actually "God rest [i.e. keep] you merry, gentlemen".

---
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]


******   END OF FORWARDED MESSAGE   ******
From: NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (jesse carnes)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: jesse carnes setting nomail
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:02:30 GMT
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Dear all ;

I am setting this thing nomail at 4:00 p.m. Central Time until January 5
when I return.
Anything sent prior to 4:00 MY time will be read by me.
Thanks.


In Christ;

Jesse Irwin Carnes
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:43:14 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Christmas Sharing

Happy Holidays everyone!  I'm gone for the next two weeks, beginning tomorrow
(12/18).  Let's use this holiday to remind folks about the One they've kicked
out of our public schools, the One Who died for their sins to make them right
with God, the One Who is hated and lives today, the One Whom they have rejected
in preference to Santa Claus.

I bought a printed/painted t-shirt recently (short sleeve unfortunately, but
many days its warm enough down here to wear it) with a Santa behind a NO
symbol.  It is a cute picture and it really grabs attention in stores and malls
and people ask "why are you wearing that?!"  On the rear of the shirt is
written, "Christ is the real reason for the season!"

Although we don't need to celebrate any religious holidays, and it is highly
probable that Jesus was not born on December 25th, it seems almost
irresponsible to not throw a little salt around when this holiday is named
after our Lord Christ, and yet His Name is not permitted to be sung in
Christmas carols in the schools we pay taxes to support.

Hmmm.... I wonder if there is a NO Easter Bunny shirt for sale anywhere...

God bless you and yours this Christmas and New Year!

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 09:14:13 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Calvinism
              "BENSON@POKVMCR3.VNET.IBM.COM" at Dec 11, 92 8:26 am

>
>Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM> states:
>  >Y O U have to choose him, Y O U have to make the choice the
>  >follow him.. Trying to take that responsiblity and CHOICE away
>  >from us, is ANOTHER Gospel as Paul puts it, a Gospel straight
>  >from the PIT OF HELL!
>
>If we are "dead in trespasses and sins" how can we choose Him?
>A dead man can't make a choice.  He has to be regenerated.
>
A dead man cant blow his nose, but I sure was blowing my nose before I
was born again..A dead man cant do a low of things!


>How can you explain that Eph. 2:8-9 says that even the faith
>which has saved you is a gift from God?  Does God bestow that
>gift on everyone?  Is it ineffective for some?
>

WHY WHY WHY is it so hard for people to accept that God may give the
gift the faith to people, but then it is up to them whether or not they
wish to implement it or not..

In fact it is funny that you talk about Faith, because your whole doctrine
seems to make a mockery out of faith, and robots out of christians..

>I don't have the answers but I believe that God is sovereign
>and in control of everything.  Rom. 9 clearly indicates that
>to me.  And in that chapter it is obvious to me that some are
>"predestined" as vessels of wrath.
>
>Mike Benson
>

What is predestination other than the result of foreknowledge anyway??

Building doctrines on one or two pasages is the quickest way of foundering
your spiritual ships on the rocks of deception.


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:52:12 -0700
From:         cartnaj <cartnaj@EAGLE.SAFB.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Re: Eternal Security

> From NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:39:26 CST
> Subject:      Re: Eternal Security: supporting your argument
>
> Bernice ;
>
> It is the same 'those' as those mentioned in Ephesians 1 where Paul says of
> them that they 'were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the
> plan of him ...'
>
> A person has to be given to Christ from the Father before they can be a
sheep.
> If that has not been done before the foundation of the World, then a person
> will not nor ever be a sheep.  Such is God's perogative.  He owns us body and
> soul.  He is such a God with whom we must deal.
>
Jesse,

Then why have missionaries?  If we are predestined to eternal life,  then the
witnessing has no effect on our salvation.  And when are we cleansed of our
sins? (Notice that WE are cleansed and not a tallysheet of God's and the sins
are removed from US).  Also where does it save salvation is eternal.  It does
say eternal life is the gift.

In Christ,



                                                Joe C.
                                                cartnaj@eagle.safb.af.mil
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:07:08 CST
From:         jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Eternal Security
              16 Dec 1992 14:52:12 -0700 from <cartnaj@EAGLE.SAFB.AF.MIL>

On Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:52:12 -0700 cartnaj said:
>> From NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:39:26 CST
>> Subject:      Re: Eternal Security: supporting your argument
>>
>> Bernice ;
>>
>> It is the same 'those' as those mentioned in Ephesians 1 where Paul says of
>> them that they 'were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the
>> plan of him ...'
>>
>> A person has to be given to Christ from the Father before they can be a
>sheep.
>> If that has not been done before the foundation of the World, then a person
>> will not nor ever be a sheep.  Such is God's perogative.  He owns us body and
>> soul.  He is such a God with whom we must deal.
>>
>Jesse,
>
>Then why have missionaries?  If we are predestined to eternal life,  then the
>witnessing has no effect on our salvation.  And when are we cleansed of our
>sins? (Notice that WE are cleansed and not a tallysheet of God's and the sins
>are removed from US).  Also where does it save salvation is eternal.  It does
>say eternal life is the gift.
>Joe ; God predestined the means as well as the ends.  Besides, we are
instructed to SPREAD the Gospel.  God gives the orders ... we are to obey
them.  God rules.   --Jesse--

In Christ,
>
>
>
>                                                Joe C.
>                                                cartnaj@eagle.safb.af.mil
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:46:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      The Christians' front.

Dan, Yes, I fully agree that we must do all we can, individually, to make
the gospel attractive.  The operative word, there, is "individually."
Church organizations, as we know them, were foreign to the early New
Testament church, and should be so to us.  I was responding to Alison's
idea, I think it was her idea, if not, apologies, that church groups need
to present a united / unified front to the world.  I couldn't disagree more
with this because I am not saved nor do I function as part of an
organization, but part of an organism, totally different.

Your citing of Paul's being all things to all men was excellent.  I
appreciated the reminder.  Paul, spoke only for himself, though.  We can
and should only speak and act for ourselves in my opinion.  Those who are
familiar with my rantings know that I am a diehard anti-organizationalist.


It is true that Paul did berate the Corinthian church for countenancing a
sin that was worse than that of the Pagans.  It is appropriate for a group
of believers to sanction their fellows when absolutely necessary, but, in
most matters, in nearly all matters, belief is not up to the group but to
the individual.

No group could possibly represent my beliefs, nor those of anyone else,
because we all differ.  For that reason, I don't like the idea of
presenting any sort of front, especially in belief, to the world.  If the
world sees a front, it should be that we all love God and strive to do His
will, nothing more is needed, is it?

Note that I said nothing about how successfully we do His will, merely that
we claim to try.

Now that I think of it, perhaps that is too much.  Hum, this needs more
thought, now that I've ranted again... [grin]

Dan Graham
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