HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: miha@proteus1.UUCP (Sinisa Mihailovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Croats and Muslims now at war.
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 21:59:15 EST
Organization: Proteus Communications, Washington D.C. * node 1

blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:

> In article <1BuqTB1w165w@proteus1.UUCP> miha@proteus1.UUCP (Sinisa Mihailovic
> >    If  you  are  going  to question my standings, I'll only answer you that
> >I  have  not  only been, I have lived in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia for some
> >time,  and  that I have relatives spread all over former Yugoslavia, some of
> >them are Croats and some of them are Serbs.
> 
> I don't want to get into yours and Victor's argument, but rather make a 
> couple simple points:
> 
> -the above does not imply superior (or any) knowledge of what's going on
>  now, i.e. what is happening on the ground (i.e. "I lived there so
>  I know that indeed 50 shells did not land last night, etc. etc.)

   You have a point there, but then, again I think that somebody who hasn't
even  been there knows even less. What I wanted to say is that I heard both
sides of the story and I have seen for myself something of it.

> 
> -most of Victors's postings are simply wire-news reports, with sources
>  cited...as for his commentary, that's his business

   The  comments  were  the one I was replying on, and I think that's quite
clear from my message.

-- miha
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Congratualations may be premature
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 92 22:06:19 CST
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

ljubicic@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Robert LJUBICIC) writes:

> 
> Clinton is indeed much better for Croatia than Bush, BUT can we
> be sure he will help put a stop to this! 
> 
> Svih znamo da politicari jedno misle, drugo govore, pa treco rade!
> 
> 
> ZA DOM SPREMNI
> Robert Ljubicic

Bill Clinton stated the following (roughly):

"Bomb Serbian possitions and lift the arms embargo on Bosna"

I think that the U.S.'s position on the former SerboSlavia will change.
But, don't be suprised if nothing changes.  Like Rob said,

"politicari jedno misle, drugo govore, pa treco rade!"


  Like I told you before Weiner, the Albanci are waiting for you in 
Kosovo, the Turks are just around the corner, and the Bugari are staring 
you in the eye!  Vratse tamo dje pripadas Srbsko dubre, u sumadiji!

Damir

--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: ljubicic@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Robert LJUBICIC)
Subject: GET BACK IN YOUR HOLE
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:07:43 GMT


Weiner....your not wanted so go back to Russia or something.
We were hoping you got hit by a truck, but your still around.
Well I hope you do get hit by a truck or better still you decide
to go back and help your Chetnik brothers in there ethnic cleansing
operations and get nailed by a Croatian soldier. The world would be
so much better without you wouldn't it!



ZA DOM SPREMNI
Robert Ljubicic
From: pnmideast@igc.apc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:06 PST
Subject: GreenLeft #79 Muslims must fight fo
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1708600005:000:2726
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Nov 10 22:06:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: GreenLeft #79 Muslims must fight for their rights


/* Written  6:30 pm  Nov 10, 1992 by greenleft@peg.UUCP in igc:greenleft.news */
/* ---------- "Green Left #79, November 11, 1992" ---------- */
`Muslims must fight for their rights'

Ifet Mustafic is the imam of the Islamic Society of Footscray in
Melbourne, where he has worked for the past one and a half years.
A Bosnian Muslim, he graduated from the Islamic faculty in
Sarajevo. He recently spoke to Green Left Weekly about the
situation in Bosnia-Hercegovina.

``When one side is well armed [Serbs] and the other side is
unarmed [Muslims], you cannot have talks. If you want to hold
talks you have to let the weaker side have the same power and
position. If you don't - and this is what the US government and
the UN is doing now by not allowing Bosnian Muslims to have
weapons to defend themselves - you help ethnic cleansing and the
occupation of Bosnia-Hercegovina by Serbia.

``Muslims were psychologically unprepared for the war because the
former Yugoslav regime for 50 years was destroying any sense of
national identity among Muslims and was attempting to convert
them to Serb nationality. In Bosnia you had no real communism,
but Serbian nationalism under a communist mask. They tried to
convert Muslims to the orthodox religion. And a lot of Muslims
began to believe them.

``Nobody will give you rights, that is the awful truth. Everyone
must take their rights. Muslims also have to take their rights.
Serbs are trying to divide Bosnia in two or three parts, but
Muslims and Croatians for now have the same target.

``What [Croatian leader Franjo] Tudjman is doing now talking to
the Serbian leader [Slobodan Milosevic] is against the interests
of his own people in Croatia, and maybe he wants part of Bosnia
just to satisfy himself after losing a third of Croatia held by
Serbia.''

Despite increasing media reports of Croatian forces turning
against their Muslim allies, Mustafic says that ``the recent
fighting between Croatian and Muslim forces in Bosnia was only
caused by a few local problems, but those are solved as far as I
know. In all Bosnian towns there are different peoples and each
wants to be on top and that causes some problems between Muslims
and Croats. But the government now has things in hand.

``After World War Two, Serbian propaganda made up a lot of lies
and disinformation and tried to establish the common thought that
Croats and Muslims cannot live together, and cannot live with
Serbs. They have used this to try to divide Bosnia in three
parts.

``The best solution is to make such a situation that all people
in all three nations can live peacefully together.''

@by right = ... Peter Anderson
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Call It Anything but Peace
Date: 8 Nov 92 18:04:06 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Andrej Brodnik (abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca) writes:
)I said:
))I agree that UN presence in Kosovo would be nice, but the problem
))is that from international point of view Kosovo is part of Yugo-
))slavia and an internal affair. And, in any case, there are only
))two ways the UN could station troops in Kosovo: by admission or
))by invasion.
)...
)A couple of comments here. First of all it is always better to prevent
)than to deal with troubles. This was a very true in case of B&H. If UN
)would be faster and more sharp in spring this year, when there was
)still peace in country, I think there would not be such escalation of
)dishumanity.

Or maybe if the EC and the UN hadn't been in such a hurry with B-H.
I know you hate to hear it, but at that time there existed only
one sensible solution for B-H which could preserve peace. Today
there is no sensible solution at all.

Anyway, with regards to the UN forces in Kosovo, we have to consider:
how do we get them there? Let me reiterate, by admission or by invasion.
Today we can forget all about admission, and thus what is left is
invasion. Or more shortly spelled: w-a-r.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Do You Even Know?
Date: 12 Nov 92 04:54:09 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.

Nicholas Jodar writes:


>The reason Yugoslavia (and other places) are such a mess is 
>due to the lack of a ruling system based on truth and justice.
>The Islamic form of government is the only one offering peace and
>stability and the protection of human rights, but nobody bothers
>to practice it.

>(Which is especially frustrating within the so-called 'Islamic 
>countries'....)

>sigh<

>I fear that the world won't get the picture until the U.S.
>collapses.  (Probably within the next ten years.)  With the 


      What will *you* do then?


>failure of Socialism and Democracy, maybe they'll get around to
>considering Islam simply because they haven't tried it, yet....


      So, if the U.S. hasn't tried it yet and the Islamic
      countries haven't tried it yet, who's tried it?
      And what is Islamic law anyway and why is it not
      practiced anywhere?


>Allah knows best....
>-AQ

-- Eduard
From: brg6080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Rasputin)
Subject: Re: GET BACK IN YOUR HOLE
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 05:34:33 GMT

ljubicic@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Robert LJUBICIC) writes:
>Weiner....your not wanted so go back to Russia or something.
>We were hoping you got hit by a truck, but your still around.
>Well I hope you do get hit by a truck or better still you decide
>to go back and help your Chetnik brothers in there ethnic cleansing
>operations and get nailed by a Croatian soldier. The world would be
>so much better without you wouldn't it!
>
>ZA DOM SPREMNI
>Robert Ljubicic

Fighting for superior culture in a village near you.

--BR
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: GET BACK IN YOUR HOLE
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:23:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: locust.721347821
Followup-To: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.


Robert Ljubicic writes:

>Weiner....your not wanted so go back to Russia or something.


      Don't get your panties in a bundle, Ljubicic.
      Incidentally, your English seems to be deteriorating
      by the day, probably as a result of fraternizing with
      Australian Ustashas.


>We were hoping you got hit by a truck, but your still around.


      You have a lively imagination.


>Well I hope you do get hit by a truck or better still you decide
>to go back and help your Chetnik brothers in there ethnic cleansing
>operations and get nailed by a Croatian soldier. The world would be
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


      You're behind the times, Bob.  Croat soldiers now prefer
      to target Slavonic Muslims.


>so much better without you wouldn't it!


      Is that a question?  Aren't questions terminated by
      _question marks_?


>ZA DOM SPREMNI


      Kusaj za khuj!  (In English, roughly -- "Bite me!")


>Robert Ljubicic

-- Eduard Wiener
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: jevremov@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (JEVREMOVIC VLADAN)
Subject: Re: Tomislav rides again
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 19:28:50 GMT

<U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (CHICAGO CRO) writes:

>I would like to fill you in Rasputin (if I can call you that). The sight that
>the town of Tomislavgrad was originally called Livno. It is on a valley
>which is called Livanjsko Polje. It was the place that Kink Tomislav was
                                                        ^^^^

   Kinky Tomislav? Oh, my !

> Chicago Cro

  Vladan

 





D
D
D
     ( Taken out of context 



>I think they like the name. Since you were so nice in asking, I won't give
>you my plan for renaming towns in "Krajina".

>-Cro...
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Friday, 6 Nov 1992 13:59:03 CST
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Bosnian language, More Citations
Distribution: soc
 <1992Nov4.212057.11581@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> <Bx8ysG.IAp@me.utoronto.ca>

In article <Bx8ysG.IAp@me.utoronto.ca>, arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad
Arnautovic) says:
>
>deniz@prometheus.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
>
>>In article <Bx7JMD.7DB@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad
>Arnautovic) writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>And there is a Bosnian variant of Serbo-Croatian language(s),
>>>in short Bosnian. While I would leave the issue to be
>>>resolved scientifically by the linguists in a less-heated
>>>political setting, let me mention only a few words, as a example,
>>....
>>>and Croatians in Croatia say "stoljece". For "week", Croatians say
>>>"tjedan", Serbians say "sedmica" and we say "hefta".
>
>>And we say "hafta" .  Does this mean we speak the same language??  Let's
>>not get too carried away with armchair linguistics.
>
>>That there are regional differences in a language does not mean that they
>>ought to be classified as different languages.  Get a Spaniard to talk
>>of getting a cab Argentina and watch the horrified Argentinians.  Yet
>>they both speak Spanish.
>
>>regards,
>>Deniz Akkus deniz@ctr.columbia.edu
>
>If you read my previous post I mentioned Bosnian *variant* of S-H.
>I still do believe that the language spoken by majority of people
>living (before ethnic genocide) in former Yugoslav republics
>Bosnia-Hercegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia is the SAME
>with several variants. However, if Serbians prefer to call it Serbian,
>Croatians call it Croatian, then there is no reason why Bosnian VARIANT
>shouldn't be called BOSNIAN.
>Furthermore, given the open aspirations of nationalistic Serbs and Croats
>to carve up B-H and join its parts to Greater Croatia and Greater Serbia,
>the language issue becomes the political issue.
>
>Senad Arnautovic
>
Senad, WHY shouldn't Hercegovci be able to speak HERCEGOVINIAN? I, as a Cro
from STOLAC, if given a choice between "Bosnian" and "Hercegovian" I would
choose Hercegovian. But I wouldn't dream of calling Croatian anything else.
I DO have a question for you Senad: If I asked you 2 years ago what nationality
you were, I bet you were Yugoslav, and spoke "Serbo-Cro". Your grandparents
were probably fighting alongside Ustasa, and THIS is how you honor them?
Also I wonder, given the current fighting record of the "Bosnians", do you
still want Yugo? I KNOW that one of the founding principles of SDA is is not
to work with anyone who wants to destroy Yugo. That's why SDA won.

-Cro
>
>
>
>>
From: U52148@uicvm.uic.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Hercegovinian Language...NOT!
Date: 9 Nov 92 15:48:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: uicvm.92314.094806U52148
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

Seeing as how some meatheads on the net advocate a "Bosnian" language,
I've decided to analyze the language of the Hercegovinians. Well, if
I go to my selo, I might run into my Amidza, or my Daidza. I might drink
Turkish coffee from a fildzan. I might use karaboje to color my hair black.
I might eat fried patlidzans for dinner. Afterwards, we might have a shot
of slivovica. Or do something truley Hercegovinian, and sing Ganga...

So what does this mean? I just speak a dialect of Cro. Amidza and Daidza
are striko and ujko respectively. A fildzan is the coffee "shot glass"
that one drinks Turkish coffee out of. Karaboje is black dye. a Patlidzan
is and eggplant. Ganga needs no explination. Now that I think of it, I night
wear shalvare, or the M.C. Hammer pants that one wears with the Hercegovinian
costume.

I don't think that a few foreign words in one's dialect necessarily means that
you can make your own language out of it, like those nutty Bosnians.
I will ask the "Bosnian Language" advocates this: Do you consider Sandzakian
muslims to be "Bosnian" from what I heard, no. Why was it then that Alija
himself stopped a Hercegovinian muslim party from forming a few weeks back.
With the way Alija botched this whole thing up, what makes you sure there
WILL even be a Bosnia to speak Bosnian in.

In Hercegovina, (We control a little more than half of it). This "Bosnian"
language won't work, because THIS is Hercegovina. Nor will it work in
Sandzak, where I know the Sandzakians DON'T consider themselves to be Bosnian.
I have good sources.

-Cro...pecam ribu na Drini.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.turkish
From: hu@aurora.physics.utoronto.ca (Min Hu)
Subject: About turkish news from internet
Keywords: turkish news
Organization: University of Toronto Physics/Astronomy/CITA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:35:01 GMT

Hi,
Does anyone know if there is turkish news service available in the internet?
It is told that turkish news can be obtained from tel@uscum. Can anybody
tell me if this is true, and how to get it? Thank you very much.

Note: This is for a friend of mine (turkish). Please contact him directly
      at koseoglu@geophy.physics.utoronto.ca 
      


Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: who was in 'power' in BH (was: Re: Call It Anything but Peace)
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:26:11 GMT

malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola Malenovic) writes:

>hm. Netiher Serbs nor Croats nor Muslims were in power in BH. There was
>supposedly a coalition government headed by the Izetbegovic. The principles
>of the coalition (again supposedly) were NOT to suceede from Yugoslavia. The
>coalition broke up when the Izetbegovic made a move toward "independence".

partially true. In the BH constitutional talk in summer and early fall 1991
there was a reference " no independence IF SLOVENIA AND CROATIA STAY
IN YUGOSLAVIA".

As it was becoming increasingly clear that Serbs are
acting by the book of their "Mein Kampf" (that is, the SANU's document
authored by the present president of internationally-unrecognized
Greater Serbia, Mr. D. Cosic) by wanting to make Greater Serbia
and to expell all non-Serbs out of it.
The Bosnians of all confessions had no choice but to vote for independence.
Why? 
Because Yugoslavia (country of ALL South Slavs) cannot be called so
if it does not include ALL South Slav nations wilingly joined
in: Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Serbs, Macedonians
and others. Therefore, what is nowdays so-called FR Yugoslavia
should be termed Serboslavia, and the Bosnians clearily do not
want to live there and be treated as a second-class citizens
(if allowed to live there), see treatment of Albanians in Kosovo.

> The coalition broke up when the Izetbegovic made a move toward "independence".

not exactly true. The Serbian ruling party SDS (not all Serbs) chose
to walk out from the government when they were ordered by the BIG BOSS,
Mr. Milosevic who saw the plans for Greater Serbia were not progressing
well. The local Serbian boss, Montenegro-born Mr. Karadzic, executed
the order quite well, despite the accommodations made by Muslim
and Croatian parties to please the Serbs by speaking
about "sovereignity" (not the same as "independence")
The vote on "sovereignity" were carried out in BH parliament, attended
by all parties in, I believe, Novemner 1991.
Immediately after the SDS left the coalition government, and long
before the vote for independence, the SDS announced formation
of Serbian territories within BH without regard to the democratically
elected government.
Therefore, world is right for condemning Serbia (and its BH cronies)
for aggression and war.

>and another thing: you suggest (vithout any room for misinterpretation) that
>Serbs were the ones who started the war. hm... let's see:
>for every conflict in BH => Serb(s) started it.
>hm... I better take another logic class...

It's up to you. Otherwise, the whole world will have to go to a logic class.

>Nik

Senad Arnautovic
From: jodar@aludra.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Do You Even Know?
Keywords: Islamic Government
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:55:43 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

In article <721544048@locust.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:

>>I fear that the world won't get the picture until the U.S.
>>collapses.  (Probably within the next ten years.)  With the 
>
>      What will *you* do then?

The same thing I'm doing now....  Why wait until the ship goes
down before you start building lifeboats?

>>failure of Socialism and Democracy, maybe they'll get around to
>>considering Islam simply because they haven't tried it, yet....
>
>      So, if the U.S. hasn't tried it yet and the Islamic
>      countries haven't tried it yet, who's tried it?

Read your history books. :-)

Actually, your history books may not have that information,
depending on who wrote them and when....  In the interests of
being brief, suffice it to say that Islamic government thrived
from the time of Muhammed (SAW) (circa 650 A.D.) up until about 
1200-1300 A.D.  At that time it was abandoned, although its 
influence continued through the 1940's and remains (to a lesser 
extent) today.

Due to the nature of Islamic government, which is based on the
people themselves, it is not possible to implement without the
support of the muslims.  There was hope that Algeria might 
implement an Islamic State, (being fed up with government 
corruption) but that idea got shot down.  

(Literally....)

>      And what is Islamic law anyway and why is it not
>      practiced anywhere?

Two BIG topics....  Time to take this to email. :-)

-AQ
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy))
Subject: Re: who was in 'power' in BH (was: Re: Call It Anything but Peace)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:19:09 GMT

In article <jmz1.721517230@crux1.cit.cornell.edu>, jmz1@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Joe) writes:
> 
> I am looking forward to your answer.

There is no answer on unpolite messages ...

Andrej
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: adzinic@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Adnan Dzinic)
Subject: ABC Nightline
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 20:01:48 GMT

From hozo@math.lsa.umich.edu Wed Nov 11 14:27:52 1992
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 14:21:06 EST
Message-Id: <9211111921.AA10331@supernova.math.lsa.umich.edu>
To: Iztok.Hozo@math.lsa.umich.edu
From: BOSNET@math.lsa.umich.edu
Subject:    ABC:Nightline
Reply-To: Iztok.Hozo@math.lsa.umich.edu
Organization: BOSNET (Bosnian Electronic Network)
Status: R

Contribution by: Iztok


Tonight ABC will air second part of the two-part series on  Bosnian
concentration camps. The title is Bosnia: The hidden horrors.
Yesterday they proved to the public that the previous news-crew was
shown  the brick-factory instead of the Keraterm - concentration camp.
Local Serbian representatives led journalists there claiming that 
that is Keraterm and it is no concentration camp. Witnesses were talking
about the horrors and mass-killings in the Keraterm. Eli Wiesel said
that the world is idly standing by and doing nothing. He also said that
the television must speak  and talk about it as much as possible.
Cosic sent a letter to Boutros-Ghali in which he is calling for 
apointment of Wiesel as a head of international comission to visit all
concentration camps back in August - but still there is no response by
Ghali. 
Tonight is the second part of this series.
Watch ABC  NIGHTLINE: Bosnia the hidden horrors. 
after the local news at 11:00pm