From: steele@aem.umn.edu (Stephanie Steele)
Subject: Re: More on Urdu and the Nature of Knowing
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:36:53 GMT

bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:

>In article <steele.722541110@chip.aem.umn.edu> steele@aem.umn.edu (Stephanie Steele) writes:

>[lots of sensible stuff deleted]


>I am afraid that this will be  only partially  true. Stephanie Steele
>makes two predictions, only one of which will, I think, come about.

>a) urduphiles will be able to post in rap without compromising their
>   focus

>Yes, this will happen, as to some extent is already happening now, even
>before rapu has been formed officially. 

>b) rapu will be an excellent place for rappers to go and learn about
>   urdu poetry.

>This unfortunately will never work out despite the best intentions of Stephanie
>and like-minded rappers. The reason is very simple. Discussion in rapu 
>will almost certainly be not in English, but in urdu ! So non-urdu-speaking
>westerners will find these discussions inaccessible. 

sayan, this is an interesting point, i think. now, if rapu were to fail,
say, and the urdu poets were inclined to post on rap, as has been 
suggested, would they post in translation or in urdu? if they posted
in translation then i think this is good argument for rapu- they
obvioulsy need to post in urdu to explore the poetry indepth. if they
post in urdu, then, as you say, us anglos will be out of luck. i think
it would be too much to ask these poets to post translations for every
work they're focusing on, which would be the third alternative to urdu
poems in rap. so it seems that in rapu the poets are enabled to post
in urdu, clearly important, and couldn't, maybe, possibly, a rapper who
is interested venture into rapu and ask for something in translation?
couldn't possibly an urdu poet then come over to rap on occasion and
post both urdu and translations? this would seem good to me.

>To use the "Indian restaurant analogy" that someone posted earlier : yes,
>the restaurant in Andhra Pradesh sells more authentic palak paneer than the
>one in Broadway, but in order to order palak paneer, you must look through
>the a la carte, and that will be in English for the Broadway restaurant,
>while the one they hand you at that excellent dhaba in Andhra is likely to 
>be in urdu or telugu ! Now tell me how you will order palak paneer ? :)

i will call on my many years of training as an actress and perform a
moving and stirring rendition in pantomime of spinach and cheese- i will
dance the spinach and cheese dance until my host and myself both exclaim
"AH!" (an international word?) and if my host should bring me something
entirely different, i will eat it and love it and point at the dish until
i understand what it is called, and i will repeat these dances until i
have most of the menu memorized in my head, and i will taste lots of stuff
i probably never would've had the good sense to order in the first place. :)
Let's Go!

>The moral of the story is that, "marginalised" groups are in a paradoxical
>way much more privileged, culturally, than the "dominant" counterparts. I speak my 
>language, and read poetry in my language, as a matter of course. 
>Out of necessity, I had to learn the language of you, the "dominant"
>Westerners, but this also made it possible for me to savour Western
>poetry (and to participate in rec.arts.poems :)  Because the westerners on this
>newsgroup did not have the existential necessity to learn about a
>"marginalised" culture , they are doomed to their monocultural 
>prison, while we, the "marginalised" , are free to roam and partake
>of the best of both cultural worlds :)

yes, sayan, this is definitely a 'plus' for people's forced into a history
of colonization. although, there are some, a poet i am familiar with
in particular, that view the imposition of the English language onto her
tongue as a brutal and agressive act. her name is Marlene Nourbese Phillips-
and i reccommend her poetry book entitled "She Tries Her Tongue." really
very fasinating stuff.

steph.
>-Sayan Bhattacharyya.




>-- 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Sayan Bhattacharyya          |   Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.
>Artificial Intelligence Lab  |
>The University of Michigan   |
--

=======================================================================
			   Stephanie Steele
			steele@chip.aem.umn.edu