HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: crawford@boole.mitre.org (Randy Crawford)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: who or whom (The Series.)
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:52:21 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA

In article <baron.76.723764449@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron) writes:
>Nobody would watch a television show whose title began with whom, 
>not even on public television.

You mean like `Doctor Whom'?  

Yuck.  I think you're right.
-- 

| Randy Crawford        crawford@mitre.org        The MITRE Corporation
|                                                 7525 Colshire Dr., MS Z421
| N=1 -> P=NP           703 883-7940              McLean, VA  22102
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Subject: Re: Excrement in the English Language
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 06:04:25 GMT

To add to the growing library:

	"Slicker than shit off a shovel"  -- Very well executed
	"Shit out of luck" -- REALLY out of luck.
	"shit-list" -- A blacklist

I don't hear "bat-shit" much anymore.  Usually it's "he went apeshit" or
"he threw a shit-fit", the latter of which I find usually conveys the point
best of all.  


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: leveret@warren.demon.co.uk (Nick Leverton)
Subject: Re: Note to Mandar
Reply-To: leveret@warren.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.20 $
Organization: Indexed; Access: Random.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:20:09 +0000

In article <BzAFMJ.5LH@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>I made a note of the statement "Ted Koppel was originally from the UK".

With a name like "Koppel", that's very unlikely to be true. Most people
with German surnames anglicised them during one or other of the World
Wars.

Nick.
From: tariqh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Tariq Hamid)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Excrement:  Shite & Shiite
Keywords: scatology, slang
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:06:56 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London


As we are talking about this topic, let me tell you one word that I and many
other muslims find annoying namely the word Shiite.

Not too long along (about 6 months) the words Shia and Muslim were used by the 
british media. But, oh no, all this has changed now instead of using Shia 
they have switched to using Shiite -  not a very nice sounding word. To think
that the Shia call themselves "Shia" and yet the western media have decided to
call them something else. As well as this the word Moslem is now being widely
adopted in preference to the word Muslim. As before, the Muslims call themselves
"Muslim" so what is the change in aid of ?

Shit! What's happening to the world we live in ?

tariq
--

Tariq Hamid	                 	Internet:  tariqh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk
 Department of Computer Science  	JANET:     tariqh@uk.ac.qmw.dcs
  Queen Mary & Westfield College  
   Mile End Road                   	  Telephone:  +44 71-975 5245
    LONDON, E1 4NS, UK             	  Fax:        +44 81-980 6533
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Some clarifications - Please read!!!
Date: 15 Dec 92 05:24:44 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <12024@spark.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>In article <hayesstw.129.723892669@risc1.unisa.ac.za> hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za (Steve Hayes) writes:
><In article <723810096snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz> hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson) writes:
><
><>  > This was not necessarily a good idea, and I hereby apologise to the
><>  > Australian a.u.e'ers for leaving them out.
><>
><>Keep apologising... you've got more countries to go.
>
>Continents, actually.
>
>(include 'oceania *apology-list*)
>
><Several more ...
>
>(include 'africa *apology-list*)
>
>Next, please?
>
How about 

(include 'universe *apology-list*)

You never know if English could span galaxies in the future.   :)

>-- 
> `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
>Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
>* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
>* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK

                                                       Mandar.
-- 
"Imagine there are no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope that some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:04:31 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <BzBsyn.9IH@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>, mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
> Why does "man" evoke the image of a man only, and "woman" not evoke the
> image of a man? 

Could it perhaps be that "woman" only refers to female members of the species
homo sapiens sapiens?

> After all, "woman" does contain "man". It is just that
> you have learnt to associate "woman" with a woman and not a man. 

And have also learnt to associate "man" with a male member of homo sapiens
sapiens.

>  I feel pity for the poor, misguided, narrow-minded souls who let
> their mind be clouded by their prejudices, when interpreting language.

In this newsgroup, Mandar, self-pity will get you nowhere.
-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   For Sale: Posts in British Government. Suit
wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk    |   outgoing American. Highest bids accepted.
From: mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Sexist Language
Date: 18 Dec 92 06:58:18 GMT
Followup-To: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA


In article <1992Dec14.032648.28935@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.023741.16916@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> DSCT@db1.cc.rochester.edu (DAVID SCOTT) writes:
>For that matter, show me where I argue "freshman" should be changed.
>I've only noted that complaining that students are called "first-years"
>is far more silly than complaining that students are called "freshmen."

Here's something you and I are in total agreement on, ted.  If you want to call
people "first-year students", that's fine with me.  But I will still call them
freshmen, no matter what anyone tells me.

--
\_\_\_\_  \_\_\_\_  \_    \_  \_    \_      |     Kristofor A. Varhus 
 \_    \_  \_        \_\_  \_  \_\_  \_     |  varhus@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
  \_\_\_\_  \_\_\_\_  \_ \_ \_  \_ \_ \_    |
   \_        \_        \_  \_\_  \_  \_\_   |   University of Pennsylvania
    \_        \_\_\_\_  \_    \_  \_    \_  | Engineering and Applied Science
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: leveret@warren.demon.co.uk (Nick Leverton)
Subject: Re: Something NEW, ferGawdzake!
Reply-To: leveret@warren.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.20 $
Organization: Indexed; Access: Random.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:54:57 +0000

In article <7940@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> briand@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM writes:
>>I am not selling this idea, but I subscribe to it.  I haven't
>>witnessed the birth of the distinction, but I am told by someone who
>>has done (and whom I know as highly sensitive to language matters)
> ^^^^^^^^
>>that usefulness has been an issue, and I find this quite plausible.

>In America, the sentence cited would simply drop the "done," and the word
>"has" that precedes it would be accented, with a distinct pause after it.

The "done" is redundant, certainly, and it wouldn't normally be used in
a (well-)written sentence. It often would be included in a spoken
sentence, though, in order to clarify the end of the preceding phrase,
especially where the phrase was long.

Nick.
From: bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Who vs. Whom (FAQ?)ex
Date: 17 Dec 1992 01:34:32 GMT
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
NNTP-Posting-Host: stealth.intel.com

In article <12062@scott.ed.ac.uk> jim@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Jim  Scobbie) writes:
>djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) writes:
>
>Which Engish-speaking communities use "whomever", "whomsoever" (in real
>life)? Or is it just a thin slice at a certain literary level across
>each of them?

Synchronicity rears its ugly entire body and slaps its
flukes on the waves of spacetime and knowledge...

I was watching Koppel just last night and a British,
civilian-aid worker in Baidoa said exactly that, "whomsoever."

Unfortunately, I can't remember exactly the context, but I
believe it was one that's been presented here as being a
questionable case of objective-or-nominative.  That or it
was clearly a nominative instance such as "...whomsoever
they may be."

				--Blair
				  "The moot zoot-suit of reason."
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: streater@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Tim Streater)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 01:01:18 GMT

In article <baron.89.724622761@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron) writes:

>>should be referred to by a personal pronoun, e.g.
>>
>>"Isn't he a basic tenant of English?" :-)
>>-- 
>>Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
>
>Don't you mean
>
>should be referred to by a personal pronoun, e.g.g.?
>

Nice one, Cyril!

Tin.
From: bmcnulty@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU (BOB MCNULTY)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: li'l help please
Date: 11 Dec 92 21:46:12 GMT
Reply-To: bmcnulty@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: oavax.csuchico.edu


          My wife has challenged me to find a list she saw
several years ago in a magazine.  It has two columns comparing the
different names given to men vs women for the same traits.

ie.    He;  is assertive                She;  is bitchy


and so on.........


If anyone has this list could you please e-mail it to me as I don't usually
subscribe to this news group?  

          THANKS IN ADVANCE.
        ////////      "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition
       (       )        from mediocre minds."   
        \ @ @ /                          A. Einstein
-------w---U---w----
Bob McNulty, CA. STATE UNIV., CHICO
BMCNULTY@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Subject: Re: Something NEW, ferGawdzake!
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 05:59:50 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec16.104128.10830@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>In article <BzAG2r.5qL@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>, mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>> I must admit that I am stumped!  :)
>> 
>> I would  have used "has done so" in the original article, instead
>> of "has done" alone.
>> 
>> But I would say :
>> "He did the job much better than I might have done."
>> 
>> Unfortunately, my grammar hasn't withstood the onslaught of American
>> usage *that* well!   :(
>> 
>> Could an Englishman please elaborate?
>
>Certainly. I'm afraid there is no hope for you. You have proved beyond any
>shadow of a doubt that you speak English with an American accent, that you use
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Only with AMERICANS!!! At least I attempt to!

>American colloquialisms and you do not understand the true British way of
>speaking. 

Is there any harm in my attempts to learn it?

>The original poster used `has done' to refer back to a different
>verb: you merely used to refer back to `to do'. All is lost: it is time for
>you to take the metaphorical plunge and confess to your sin of pride. 

I have admitted it before and I admit it now. I am NOT perfect. But
I strive to be. I strive to attain the perfect English English standard.

>True
>forgiveness can be had with true contrition---and a promise that you won't
>pollute the bandwidth with your idiosyncratic opinions again except it be in a
>far gentler way.
>-- 

Forgiveness? I haven't committed any "sin". I do not see anything
wrong in my attempts to perfect my English. 


                                                            Mandar.
-- 
"Imagine there are no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope that some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Subject: Re: Jam, Jelly, Marmalade
Reply-To: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 00:19:41 GMT

In article <eZPZVB2w165w@lily.arts.com>, palepink@lily.arts.com (Suzii Abe)
writes:
> Dennis Davis writes:
> > Robertson's are a UK manufacturer of jam/marmalade.  I suspect that
> > their product may be referred to as jelly in the States.
> 
> In my dialect, all three are sweet, congealed substances made from 
> plant matter (usually fruit, except for some jellies, like mint).
> 
> Jelly:  completely smooth.  Made from the juice of the plant, with
> all fibrous or lumpy stuff strained out.  This is why jellies can
> be made from a wider variety of plant matter--you can get apple juice
> to congeal, but if you leave the fruit fiber in, you can only get
> apple sauce (or, if you cook forever and add *lots* of spices, apple butter).
> 
> Jam:  lumpy, but still spreadable.  Made from the full fruit.  The
> majority of jams are berries or stone fruits.  (Some people strain
> out the peach or apricot skins after cooking but before congealing.)
> 
> Marmalade:  contains chunks of orange or lemon peel in a jam base.


And then there's preserves...even lumpier than jam.  I believe jam is made
from fruit that has been crushed as much as possible, while preserves are (!) 
made from whole fruit.  


Marie Coffin
From: briand@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Brian D Diehm)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Knives and forks
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:09:07 GMT
Reply-To: briand@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

>spoon.  But I've seen Europeans mash peas onto the backs of their forks with
>a knife.  Now that strikes me as odd.  Is that a reaction against switching?
>Is it the Euro-norm?

Having started this non-usage thread, I reserve the right to comment on it once
again. I am reminded of a bit of doggerel here, but other than that I have no
more knowledge of these vital issues.

I eat my peas with honey,
I've done it all my life.
They DO taste kind of funny,
but it keeps them on the knife!

-Brian

P.S. - Welcome back Mandar! It's a relief to see your sense of humor coming
out in your postings - I was afraid for a while that you were all too
"mustard keen."

--
Brian Diehm
Tektronix, Inc.                (503) 627-3437         briand@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM
P.O. Box 500, M/S 19-286
Beaverton, OR   97077
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: vince@cadence.com (Vince Gibboni)
Subject: Re: Marketese outdoes itself
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:23:20 GMT

jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
> And here in a department store's ad in the Sunday paper we have a
> Molecular Vapor Hair Styler.
>
> Step aside, "Eight Big Amps," we have a new HyperBabble champion!
>
    
    I once saw an add for a (cheap) digital watch which listed among
    the watch's features "an advanced photon generation device" (meaning, 
    of course, that it had a light).

    
--
                                                         vince@gda.cadence.com

    Man, you should have seen them kicking Edgar Allan Poe
        - John Lennon
From: palepink@lily.arts.com (Suzii Abe)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Jam, Jelly, Marmalade
Date: 18 Dec 92 18:17:13 GMT

Dennis Davis writes:
> Robertson's are a UK manufacturer of jam/marmalade.  I suspect that
> their product may be referred to as jelly in the States.

In my dialect, all three are sweet, congealed substances made from 
plant matter (usually fruit, except for some jellies, like mint).

Jelly:  completely smooth.  Made from the juice of the plant, with
all fibrous or lumpy stuff strained out.  This is why jellies can
be made from a wider variety of plant matter--you can get apple juice
to congeal, but if you leave the fruit fiber in, you can only get
apple sauce (or, if you cook forever and add *lots* of spices, apple butter).

Jam:  lumpy, but still spreadable.  Made from the full fruit.  The
majority of jams are berries or stone fruits.  (Some people strain
out the peach or apricot skins after cooking but before congealing.)

Marmalade:  contains chunks of orange or lemon peel in a jam base.

What are things like in your dialect?

--Suzii.
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Bang! Bang!! I'm dead (was Re: A Modest Proposal: Killfile aid) :)
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:15:24 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec16.030205.29024@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu writes:
>#include <grain-of-salt.h>
>
#include <Khomeini.h>

>In order to help the non-Mandar-flamewar-oriented among us (such as myself) in
>creating killfiles designed to junk a maximum of Mandar with a minimum of
>effort, I suggest that all persons responding to or commenting on
>Mandar-initiated threads put a flag word in the "Keywords:" header of their
>posts.  The obvious choice is "Mandar".  Note that I have followed this
>practice myself in composing this message.
>


The Imam has spoken! 
There's a "fatwa" against me!   ;)

*Shudder*.......and I haven't even read Satanic Verses!   :) :)

>By making this a standard practice, we can optimize the efficiency of
>de-Mandarizing killfiles.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
Shouldn't that be -ising?   :)

Anyway, go ahead and de-Mandarise me!   :)


                                                           Mandar.

-- 
"Imagine there are no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope that some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: leveret@warren.demon.co.uk (Nick Leverton)
Subject: Re: Use of the apostrophe, or not, with decades
Reply-To: leveret@warren.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.20 $
Organization: Indexed; Access: Random.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:56:04 +0000

In article <BzAG6x.5sG@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>>accepted practice.  (Potato's is not the plural of potatoe.)
>>                                                   ^^^^^^^
>
>Is that a typo, or is potato spelled potatoe Down Under?

Someone posting from Dan Quayle's Own Country has to ask ??

N.
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Who vs. Whom (FAQ?)ex
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:49:51 GMT
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <1992Dec12.205201.21207@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:

# Same thing - try "Give one to he who first comes through the door".

Heh heh ... can there be any doubt that these forms are not intuitive
to native speakers of English?

David Johns
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Excrement in the English Language
Keywords: scatology, slang
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:33:02 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

tariqh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Tariq Hamid) writes:

>I've  heard "diddly squat" being used by in Scotland, I also heard it being used
>in some american tv shows and films by characters when they want to sound quaint.

In Scotland? Must have been an American tourist you met.
Not in use up here.

Keech (Scottish 'ch') is common though as in "Don't talk keech'
Means rubbish in that phrase but it also has an excremental meaning.


Dave

--
From: dsb@duke.cs.duke.edu (D. Scott Bigham)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: A gender neutral pronoun
Date: 18 Dec 92 03:35:06 GMT
Organization: n. Arrangement in an orderly or logical fashion.  See "miracle".

From the Holy Book of <37851@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu>
  as spake by djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) :

>Since so many people seem to think that singular "they" is a
>fabrication by PC types, and correspondingly alien to "normal" people,

Who has said that?  I certainly haven't.  All I have said to date is
that there are situations in which gender-neutral pronouns are needed
and "they" just doesn't work.

> [examples deleted]

(sigh)  Yes, I've addressed this.  All the examples you cite are spoken
English (or "written spoken English", as we have it on the Net --
essentially, declarative or expository text, as opposed to descriptive or
narrative).  In these situations, using "they" as a singular pronoun can
indeed be gotten away with, because it will generally be so used only a
few times in sequence, and the total cost in reader/listener energy is
not great.

If you've been following this thread at all, you've doubtless seen the
stranger-in-trenchcoat example paragraph.  Go back to that paragraph and
try replacing "he" with "they".  Reads horribly, doesn't it?  That's all
I'm trying to say.

						-sbigham
-- 
Scott Bigham                   | The opinions expressed above are
dsb@romeo.cs.duke.edu          | (c) 1992 Hacker Ltd. and cannot be
bigham@hercules.acpub.duke.edu | copied or distributed without a
    (but not for long)         | Darn Good Reason(tm).
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dadams@dstrike.demon.co.uk ("David Adams")