From: agoyo1@athena.mit.edu (Acee Agoyo)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:09:45 GMT

racle.us.oracle.com> <1992Dec10.203644.21800@athena.mit.edu>
Keywords:

In article <Bz7r7o.4yG@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu 
 (Herman Rubin) writes:
>These other groups faced just such discrimination in these United States.
>The intellectual capacity of the Jewish immigrants around the turn of the
>century were called into question openly in the same manner that those of
>the blacks were.  When I got my PhD, one of my professors told me that,
>contrary to what one gathered from the press, etc., there was relatively
>little discrimination agains Jews in southern universities; there was in
>much of the north.  This was shortly after WWII.  At this time, blacks
>could not get a job at a good university.  Less than 5 years later, they
>could, and universities were seeking them.
What you have stated are obvious facts.  What do you intend to prove -- your
obvious command of history?  Your statements have not enlightened me, I'm sad
to say.

>Why do you think the Japanese-Americans were incarcerated during WWII?
>Not because they were a security threat; they were left alone in Hawaii.
>But because they had become prosperous, even in the face of laws which
>kept those not born in the US from owning land.  When I was a child, a
>common expression was, "He does not have a Chinaman's chance."  Discrimination
>against these groups was quite open only a half century ago.  But this did
>not keep them from succeeding.
Why do you think my grandfather was imprisoned during WWII?  Because he
was Japanese?  No, he was imprisoned because he looked Japanese and therefore
was a threat to America (by whatever means).  He was not rich (except in culture
and family) and was not a threat to security.  Discrimination against him didn't
keep him from succeeding, either.  He was born in America as was his grandmother
as was her grandfather, continuing for generations farther than your 
statistics department can count.

>What enabled Truman to desegregate the Armed Forces was that the blacks
>proved, on the battlefields of Italy, that they could be effective soldiers.
>Likewise, the Japanese.  The blacks, unlike the other groups mentioned here
>and elsewhere, have officially had the doors opened to them without having
>to show in advance that they could do well, and it is up to them to show
>that they can compete.
The whites had the sea and a land later known as America opened to them without
having to show in advance that they could do well here, and it was up to
them to show that they could do well here.  Tell me; what has been proven?

>You have had people going out of their way to help.  Possibly that is your
>problem; you have not had to do it all by yourselves.  But opening the door
>to opportunity gets you nowhere if you do not enter, and after entering,
>show that you are deserving of being admitted.  You cannot be given an
>education.  You cannot be given achievement; you must earn it.  And you
>cannot expect the rewards without showing you deserve them by deed, not
>by rhetoric.
Your command of the English language is certainly commendable.  Since
when does "you" match with "yourselves?"  And how am I to interpret the
many people going out of their way "to help."  To help whom?  Perhaps your
use of the English language is your problem in understanding your ignorance.

What basis do you have in saying that so many people have helped me?  No
one helped me get my 4.23/4.00 GPA in high school.  (ask your statistics
department how such a GPA is possible)  No one helped me win the Outstanding
English Student award of 1991 at my high school.  How is is possible for a
person whose first language was not English achieve such an award?  How did
I get a 35/36 on the English portion of the ACT?  There must be some
conspiracy to help me I don't know about.  Damn, I have so many friends!

The only thing I have "proven" is that I can do well.  And I have not proven
it to others, I have proven it to myself.  Forget your "abilities" and "I can't
prove this statement because there are no theories about human behavior to back
me up but I'll say it anyway" shit you perpetrate.  I don't need to prove
I was deserving of MIT admission.  Those who believe that I need to prove
anything are insecure and doubt that anyone but themselves can do well.
Those who believe that I am unworthy of an MIT education until proven otherwise
are unworthy of speaking to me.  

>I do know minority people who were admitted undeservedly.  This does not
>help those minorities.   Quotas getting people who were not educated in
>high school into the universities, or overzealous granting of grades and
>degrees in the name of AA to those who do not have the knowledge and
>ability, must lead to distrust.  These have happened.
Again, I must commend you on your wonderful English skills.  Sentences like
"[T]hese have happened" make me want to call your high school English teacher
and ask why you were allowed to pass the class.  

When whites prove they have the "knowledge and ability" to converse 
intelligently and act respectfully towards me, I will no longer distrust
them.  Their attitudes, a direct result of RA (Racist Actions), continue
to disable them, both socially and economically.  These have happened.

Your statements remind me of a conversation I had with one Ron Dippold on
alt.discrimination this past spring.  Just for the hell of it, here it is
again:

>Ron Dippold writes [in response to my question: "how do you know AA
is 'in effect' for this _one person_":]
>>I don't.  But I have to take into account the very real possibility
>>that it is.  Thus he is at a minor, but real, disadvantage compared to
>>another applicant.  If he's someone like Stanford, who had the scores
>>to make it on his own, he's getting screwed by no fault of his own.
>Hmmm.  I still don't understand this argument fully.  It doesn't seem to
>make sense.  What if we change the situation to me and a white person?
>Let's see:  (so what's, so what's the scenario?)
> Question:  How do you know RA (Racist Action) is in effect for this
>            _one white person_?
>My Answer:  I don't.  But I have to take into account the very real possibility
>that it is.  Thus he is a a minor, but real, disadvantage compared to an
>African American.  Since whites have been the major practicers of RA,
>I have to take into possibility that every white I meet is a result of RA.
>If he's not, he's somewhat screwed by no fault of his own.  If he is a result of
>RA, then what the heck?  I was right.

Some things don't change. . .

"cause my zipper's stuck"
Acee Agoyo
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination