From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: damnation
Date: 13 Oct 92 05:21:37 GMT
Organization: FNAL

In article <Oct.12.02.27.13.1992.19838@geneva.rutgers.edu> dxf12@po.cwru.edu
(Douglas Fowler) writes:
>      Though I am not Catholic, I am beginning to lean more and more to their
> thinking on Purgatory - it sounds like this would be a good compromise for
> such people, and the kind that a loving God would create.  The reason I
> feel that such people would not necessarily be consigned to Hell is that
> Jesus Himself went down to Hell, and preached there until the REsurrection.
> This is something we lose track of, but He is everywhere, as He is God.
> Therefore, I think it may be plausible that such people are given some
> time in Purgatory as a chance to repent - one last chance to turn to
> Jesus.  If this is the case, then Hell is only permanent for those who
> have made the "decision for evil," and those who die without knowing the
> Word, but who live just as good a lives as the best of Christians, will
> suffer but will have a chance to be redeemed.

*"it sounds like this would be a good compromise"

That's just what it is.  The Scriptures *plainly* teach that it is appointed
once for man to die and then comes judgement.  The doctrine of Purgatory is
extra-Biblical.  If that doesn't bother you, so be it.  But just let it be
known that it is not a doctrine of either the Scriptures, of Christ or of the
early fathers.  It is just as you have stated, a "compromise,"  man trying to
water down the severity of retribution against his sinful freewill choices.  

*"Jesus Himself went down to Hell"

I'm sure that you're referring to the I Pet 3:19 passage.  It is here stated
that between His death and resurrection, Christ went to the place of "confined
angels" i.e. tartarus.  The spirits in prison are angels to whom Christ
announced their judgment.  I support this view for a several reasons:

1)  the word "spirits", when used in the NT and the LXX is used
    without further notation or without modifying adjectives, 
    refers to angels or demons.

2)  v.18 is best understood as a contrast of the 2 elements of Christ.
   a)  "put to death in the flesh"  refers to His human body
   b)  "made alive in the spirit" refers to His spiritual essence 
       (understood via "God-man", the unification of Logos & human spirit)

Both of these phrases lack the article in the GK and stand as "in flesh" and
"in spirit" therefore seemingly referring to the kind of sphere in which the
action took place.  His flesh and His spirit are contrasted here (cf. Rom
1:3,4; 9:5).

3) the GK phrase "ev ho"
    a)  understood as "in which" or "in whom" may here be taken to mean
        "in which state"
    b)  thus "in which spirit of his" or "in which state" would signify 
        Christ w/o His body, but in spirit.

4)  Peter later expresses knowledge of the angelic host and their
    banishment to tartarus, waiting for judgment (cf. 2 Pet 2:4)

5)  kerusso, not euangelizo
   a)  the Gk word that we have translated as "preached" is not 
       euangelizo, "to preach the good news."
   b)  the Gk word is kerusso, "to announce or proclaim"

Here we see judgment, not a second chance as you would suggest.  Cf v.25 where
Peter does use euangelizo.  He understood his terminology and used it
appropriately.  No redemption was being offered.

6)  look at the series of aorist tenses
   a)  put to death
   b)  made alive in spirit
   c)  went
   d)  preached
and then the resurrection and exaltation to God's right hand is mentioned:
   e)  having gone to heaven

This is the sequence or the order of events and is refereed to in the aorist
tense to signify a once and for all action.  It is a completed event! 

7)  the entire context seems to have in view angels and not men.  Just look at
the conclusion that Peter draws: "angels and authorities and power" are now
subjected to Him.  Man is not in view here.

Soooooo, if you want to draw the conclusion that man has a second chance, you
have to (1) explain away verses like "appoint once to die & then judgment" and,
(2) not use 1 Pet to as a basis for redemption beyond the grave.

I understand the difficulty in accepting the harsh reality that- our present
actions cause *significant* effects in the dimension of eternity.  But there it
is.  You can't be soft on sin and have a high view of the dignity of man and a
high view of the holiness of God. 

The new philosophy calls all in doubt.
The element of fire is quite put out.
The sun's lost,
         and the earth,   
              and no man's witt,
Can well direct him where to look for it!
(17th c. John Dunne)

Rex