HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Sat,  7 Nov 1992 08:33:05 -0500 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Maythen's Accomplishment

Greetings good gentles,

Vashti's recent post reminded me that Maythen had written a letter
(describing her accomplishment of becoming the first female victor
in a coronet list) to Tournaments Illuminated during my tenure as
editor.  I found it in issue #59, Summer, 1981.

It seems that she won the Coronet Tourney held the weekend of 
April 11-12, 1981, fighting in a six-fold list (brainchild of
a famous Prince of the Mists, William the Lucky, and his fair
princess, a certain lady named "Hilary of Serendip!").  

Maythen took 1st place in Fighting, Music, Dance, and Heraldry, 
plus 2nd in Literature, though she was not one of the top five
finishers in Chess.  William and Hilary had to get special
permission from the Board to hold the list and judging was
done by the competitors themselves, each rating the other
participants in a given category.

I think that such experimentation is very healthy and would
like to see more examples of it in the future.  How 'bout you?

My best -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Skewering mundanes
Date: 8 Nov 92 20:02:16
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
	<Bx5sA1.KsJ@agora.rain.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se

William greets all ye more or less bloodthirsty gentles

As to the "swords vs guns" thread, I think one could probably
try it out experimentally. Get a paintball gun and some non-
lethal sword substitute. Then act out the situation with the
rednecks among yourselves. This should demonstrate approximately
how great your chances are with a sword vs a gun-waving yahoo.

William
From: 76520.3531@compuserve.COM (Jack Thompson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: checking in
Date: 5 Nov 92 10:41:34 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings.
I am new to this list. Although not a member of any SCA chapter, I do have
an interest in matters medieval, in that I am a conservator/restorer of such
things, primarily books.  To me, that means wood, metal, findings, pigments,
inks, dyes, leather, (tanned and tawed), paper, thread (includes flax 
production), gold beater's skin, blacksmithing, and iron founding.
I look forward to learning, and am happy to pass on what I have learned.
Once a year, I teach a 2 week-long workshop about the technology of the 
medieval book, in a medieval setting in the panhandle of Idaho, with my
colleague, Jim Croft.  The workshop includes a section about papermaking,
using rag pulp beat in a three-hammer, overshot waterwheel-driven stampmill.
Jack C. Thompson
Thompson Conservation Laboratory
7549 N. Fenwick
Portland, Oregon  97217
(503) 248-0046 (day)
(503) 289-8723 (evening; when the kids aren't on the line)
From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Leslie Fish
Date: 4 Nov 92 14:22:35 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Unto all who read these words, greetings from
Yaakov.

Dorthea writes:
"You all know Leslie Fish, famed filksinger and
guitar-manipulator whom a consortium of fans brings
out to Pennsic every year."

Consortium indead!  That's ME, with some assistance from
the rest of my household (this year in conjunction with
a household in Trimaris whose name I, alas, forget).
I sometimes joke that our Pelican contribution to the
SCA is getting Leslie active by bringing her to her first
Pennsic. (For those interested on how, it was easy.
We wrote and asked if she wanted to come as our guest.
She said yes.)
I am a might touchy on the subject because I have
gone begging every year for money for this project
and, despite massive verbal enthusaism and support
from various people, I have gotten very little
financial support.  This has left me (several times)
personally covering debts that I felt honor bound
to cover, despite failed pledges of cash.
As for this year, unless someone else brings
Leslie out, it ain't gonna happen.  There is *no*
way, given my financial situation, that I can bankroll
it.  My experience has shown me that if I get involved
in *any* way, I end up managing details and puting up
huge sums of money.

In service to the bardic arts,
Yaakov HaMizrachi
House Danegeld
Pauper
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Shire of Wintermist, Caid--read if you are in or near this group
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 23:57:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.222306.2785@vela.acs.oakland.edu> atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez) writes:
>  Greetings, and apologies to those who are not interested in this message;
>
>  Recently Baron Richard Kendrick moved from my group (Hawkland Moor, Midrealm)
>to the Shire of Wintermist in Caid.  Baron Richard is famed for his cheesecake,
>and many people who have never met him have heard of his cheesecake.
>  If you would happen to meet Baron Richard in the next few weeks, mention to
>him that you have heard of his cheesecake.  I guarantee that his reaction will
>be enjoyable, and that he will not be offended in any way.

Hmmm.....

Given the different possible definitions for 'cheesecake', one wonder
if your tongue is far enough into your cheek to come wiggling out your
ear....

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Skewering the mundanes
Keywords: law, weapons, fighting, police
Date: 7 Nov 92 04:02:51 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

For anyone who wishes to read up on the matter...

_American Law and the Trained Fighter_
by Carl Brown (A lawyer with a black belt in Judo)
1983 Ohara Publications, Burbank CA
ISBN: 0-89750-091-1   $5.95

I'm not going to quote the entire book here, but a few things to keep in mind;

1.) The laws vary *WILDLY*, spend the time to find out what the law is
where you live.

2.) Use *minimum* force necessary and only to "disarm and restrain" until
authorities arrive.

3.) Don't brag afterward

4.) Jurors watch a lot of TV where ALL martial artists are experts.  The
law generally does not distinguish between a world-class champion and a
guy who has had a lesson or two.  Most jurors can not make the distinction,
and the other guy's lawyer is going to try to confuse the issue.

It's an excellent book.
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Pirates of the Carribean Event - Dec 12 - Rhydderich Hael - Write for details.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: (none)
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:23:32 GMT

William de Corbie greets the Rialto.

I argued that:

>> Some things are clearly OOP and noticeable as such to all. Other
>> OOP things are only noticeable to some of us. I do not think that
>> anyone has advocated the right for anyone to introduce the former
>> in the SCA, but opinions on the latter seem divided.

David Tallan writes:

>...I don't think I can think of a single activity which a full
>100% of SCA participants would know was not period.

Cars, airplanes, boom boxes, machineguns, computers, rock-n-roll
music, television, skate boards, spray paint graffitti art, ball
point pens, flipper games... and related activities.

>Can I sing a Beatles song and say "Hey, I'm having fun. Mary,
>over there who is deaf doesn't know anything unperiod is going on.
>It's OK."?
 
You are doing exactly the thing I was arguing against in the
paragraph you quoted: taking an absurd example which has nothing
to do with what we were talking about in the first place. Nobody
has suggested Beatles music as suitable at SCA events.

>Given that, what you are saying is that when an activity is visibly
>OOP to a critical number of people it is no longer "OK". I think it
>would be very difficult to come up with a satisfactory definition of
>a "given number of people".

We should deal with reality, not an exercise in formal logics. Those parts
of reality which contain people, and statements about groups and their
characteristics, are a little fuzzy around the edges -- and difficult
to describe with numerical precision. The absence of 100% certainties
and the impossibility to create rules which apply to all human beings
from Creation to Ragnarok, does not mean that we cannot make true
statements about humans. The difficulty of coming up with a satisfactory
definition of a numerical or percentile value, is irrelevant since we
are not attempting to re-invent the Universe. Not even God set down
rules like that for human behavior.

By "all of us", I did not mean idiots, analphabets, the mentally
handicapped, people who never went to school, who are deaf and blind
(or dead), natives from the New Guinea jungle, or small furry creatures
from Alpha Centauri. I meant normal people with an interest in the
middle ages and renaissance -- the kind of people who make up the SCA.

Some things are clearly OOP and noticeable as such to all of us. Other
OOP things are only noticeable to a few experts. I do not think that
anyone has advocated the introduction the former in the SCA, but
opinions on the suitability of the latter seem divided.

William

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Patent of Arms / Order of Precedence question
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:46:46 GMT


I (Tibor) observed:
  I just checked EK law.  Except for a few special cases, where
  non-armigerous awards, or certain titles rank themselves in relevant
  precedence, or titles disclaim any precedence whatsoever, no order of
  precedence is listed!

Arval answered:
  The Eastern order of precedence is defined in (surprise!) the published
  order of precedence, which is issued under the royal signature.

Since EK law requires that the OP be published every two years, this
allows the then reigning royalty to re-arrange the OP willy-nilly,
with no oversight, and have that OP last through the terms of up to
3 sets of descendants.  This isn't right, to me.

BTW, when was the last OP published?  It's about time for another,
isn't it?

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Thu,  5 Nov 1992 18:03:20 -0500 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Children in the SCA

Greetings good gentles,

From time to time the question of children in the SCA comes up and
the topic certainly merits discussion.  My own little daughter, at
two months, is too small for activities and we try to do our best
to keep her crying and such from bothering anyone else.  Still,
there are a number of practical issues that should be considered,
such as:

           1) What are the responsibilities of the Society
              toward its younger members (i.e., children)?

                a) Do we 'owe' kids the same attention that
                   we give fighters, musicians, dancers,
                   and other sub-groups with special
                   requirements for space, activities, etc.?

                b) Does the corporation 'owe' kids resources
                   of their own, like handbooks for adults to
                   use to help kids feel a part of the SCA?

           2) What are the responsibilities of the *parents*
              of children to other people at events?

           3) What are the bounds of acceptable behavior for
              children at events, practices, meetings, etc.?

           4) What, if anything, can be done when children
              get out of hand and their parents are unwilling
              to control them?  (The likelihood of the first
              seems directly proportional to the likelihood
              of the second.)

           How have other parts of the Known World addressed such
           matters?  Are ministries of children effective or do
           they just end up in frustration trying to please all
           of the people all of the time, and thereby failing
           to make _anyone_ happy?

I would appreciate your comments, thoughts, and suggestions on these
questions.  We all have stories of children who are model members of
the Society AND stories about little hellions and their inconsiderate
parents.  I'll look forward to your feedback, friends.

My best -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."
From: SN=Carol_L+p_Smith%SU=SMITH%GI=CAROL%IN=CL%Monsanto@mcimail.COM ("Carol L. Smith")
Subject: Research Committees
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:33:00 GMT

-----------------------------
Application message id:  STLEDD 921111123320094371
Importance:  Normal
Grade of Delivery:  Normal

-----------------------------
    Greetings unto the fine gentles haggling around the Rialto from
    Caroline! In the short span of time since I posted my request for
    gentles interested in serving on research committees, I have
    received enthusiastic responses from (in no particular order):

    Alan Fairfax Aluricson
    Bertram of Bearington
    Duncan MacKinnon to Tobermory
    Caitlin Davies
    Charles the Clerk
    Morgan de Grey
    Katriona ni Chonarain
    Ellisif
    Tibor

    These gentles have a wide range of experience and live throughout
    the Known World, leading me to believe that there are others out
    there who would also be willing to serve on committees were they
    asked.

    Therefore, I suggest that the above gentles (and anyone else who
    would be interested in serving on a research committee) write the
    Board and tell them so. I also suggest that you tell them
    something about what you've done in SCA and real life (and that
    you know the difference! :) :) ) so that they can have a file of
    interested gentles should the occassion arise.

    Again, thank you for your response, and I am encouraged that
    gentles are willing to serve in such a fashion.

    I remain, ever trying to make the Known World a better place,
    Caroline
**************************************************************
Carol L. Smith                 !Caroline Forbes of Oxfordshire
Business Systems Consultant    !          (insert office here)
The Agricultural Group of Monsanto!     Three Rivers, Calontir
St. Louis, Missouri            !"Just this chick from Atlantia
557-3321@mcimail.com           !                via the East."
From: urcat@mcl.ucsb.edu (Eilidh Swan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Renn Faire overlap
Date: 8 Nov 92 07:34:28 GMT

In <9211041715.AA17413@sagepub.COM> jprod@sagepub.COM (Journals Production Department) writes:

>  Although I personally have not participated _officially_ in the Southern
>  California Rennaissance Faire, I hang around with a number of people
>  who do officially participate every year (I live with one who used to,
>  but quit from exhaustion). My impression of Faire Folk is that they
>  don't have a problem with the SCA. The SCA doesn't have a problem with
>  them either, as far as I can tell. I know plenty of people who do both
>  Faire and the SCA and enjoy both.
>
>  What about Markland and other groups? Does anyone have personal experience
>  dealing with the SCA's relationship to them?

Regarding So.Cal.'s Ren Faire (which to the people out here *IS FAIRE*....
translate: you mean there's Faire in other places??!!).....one friend
who was working in one the guilds told me last year that there seemed to
be a huge gap and some tension between SCAdians and the folk of Faire.
The first thing he noticed when I asked him for some sewing advice before
I was planning to attend was the tell-tale phrase: "But I'll have to work
on some Rennaissance *Garb* before I go..."  He immediately responded,
"It's not *garb,* it's a *costume!*  You've been in SCA, haven't you?"
Their concept (according to this *one* gentle) was that these were
"characters" (as opposed to "persona's") and that they wore "costumes"
(as opposed to "garb").  *sigh* was my response.   He further commented
that you could (supposedly) *always* tell who came to Faire from SCA...
those OOP *Medieval* clothes!!!   *laughs*

Hopefully this was just one account.  *shrug*  I still had fun there...
but a tourney is ever so much more friendly!!!!!  People seem less 
stand-offish in SCA (a sentiment mentioned on the Rialto lately) and 
are very willing to include the stranger in their midst.  For some of 
the folk at Faire, it's just a weekend job.  I suppose that's their loss.


Eilidh Swan  (Shire of the Isles, Kingdom of Caid) (UCSanta Barbara)
************************************************************************
Cat McGlothlin    urcat@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu   'urcat'='you-are-cat'   "Oh!"
                  eilidh@cs.ucsb.edu       -- Eilidh is Celtic for Ellen
"It's is not, it isn't ain't, and it's it's, not its, if you mean it is.
If you don't, it's its.  Then too, it's hers.  It isn't her's.  It isn't
our's either.  It's ours.  And likewise, yours and theirs too."
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fealty, not oaths, to a kingdom
Date: 5 Nov 1992 18:15:44 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov05.163247.144949@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
"Greetings from Arval!  Dorothea wrote:
"
"> The language used in the West is "fealty" for Peers or Barons or Great
"> Officers; occasionally "homage" for the rest of the populace...
"
"Interesting.  Do you have any idea how & why this usage started?  I ask for
"a simple reason: It is incorrect.  ....

Arval, I haven't a clue.  Some of the old-guard Heralds may know.  Most
likely, somebody started it on the spur of the moment and we've been
doing it that way ever since (this is the West, where we've got more
Traditions than Tevye).


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lcatlett@carson.u.washington.edu (Lynn Catlett)
Subject: Re: swords
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:18:17 GMT

One more thought on the thread about potential 
violence on site:  

Most of us have been fortunate enough not to 
encounter *real* danger at events, but how do we
*know* whether it doesn't occur or whether we just
happened not to hear about it?  By virtue of camping
often with a dedicated constable-type, being acquainted
with people involved in various occurrences, and 
generally being of a noticing kind o person, I am aware
of a number of unsettling things that The Populace most
likely don't know about.  The Populace never sees the
reports of the constabulary...  how could It know if
where the problems might be?

Lynn/Lin





Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Arrow-making
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:45:58 GMT


Nigel Haslock asserts that the Romans drew wire. I do not think this has
been established; if it is, I would be interested in the evidence.
There is a very good book on Jewellery in classical antiquity sitting
on my bookshelf at home, about 800 miles from here; as I remember,
the authors concludes that the question of whether wire drawing was
known in classical antiquity is still open. Certainly they made wire,
but there are other techniques they may have used.

If memory serves me correctly, the earliest good evidence of wire 
drawing is Theophilus, c. 1100 A.D.

David/Cariadoc

P.S. that was "author concludes."
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Group activity
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 20:56:04 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval, most notably to Lord Elwyn.

Tibor's reply to your latest posting on this subject quite effectively
covers most of the points that I would have made.  I would like to
illuminate one point.

Elwyn, I do not argue that _most_ branches in the SCA are well-advised to
hold events, and that _most_ participants are best-served by a branch that
holds events, and that in _most_ cases holding local events and attending
events elsewhere are closely linked.  However, I do not accept that there
is only one way right way to run a branch of the Society, or that there is
only one way to play the game, or that every group of SCAfolk want the same
things out of the Society.  I do not accept that it is impossible for a
branch to be active, happy, and productive without holding public events.
I do not accept that the official hierarchy should homogenize the SCA by
requiring every branch to fit one model, no matter how common and no matter
how successful it may be in other cases. 

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Group activity
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:10:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.191328.27515@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>So, while it is a very good idea for events to appear
>in kingdom newsletters, it shouldn't be a requirement.

Nor is it....  Corpora II.A

... All Society events must be sponsored by branches of the Society,
registered with the Seneschal of the sponsoring branch and publicized
at least to the membership of that branch, and conducted according to
Society rules.

Corpora doesn't even say the notification has to be *published*.
(There are stricter requirements for 'actions and announcements with
long-term impact on the Society'--like Crown Lists.)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca