HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: baldwin@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Where the extra money goes.
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:32:42 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dep't., U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD
In-reply-to: solman@athena.mit.edu's message of 16 Nov 92 06:36:50 -0400

In article <1992Nov16.103650.320@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu
(Jason W Solinsky) writes:
>In NYC in particular, a large fraction of this money goes to janitors
>who make $20,000 more than teachers in this school system with some of
>the highest paid teachers in the country. NYC may be an exception with
>respect to the janitorial situation, but any district where half of
>all personell costs go to non-teachers is doing something VERY wrong.

I'm a big detractor of the inflated "support" costs of our educational
system, but I have to register mild disagreement with this statement.
"Half of all personnel costs to non-teachers" isn't specific enough to
address any real problem.  I suspect that some substantial portion of
the people labeled as "janitors" in the source that quoted the above
factoid are actually what might more accurately be called
"maintenance" employees, which are and ought to be in a different
category from "janitors."

Any service industry (like education) that is people-intensive is
going to have to have quite an /* TRENDY BUZZWORD ALERT */
infrastructure (buildings, grounds, food service, transport, etc.).
Maintaining that /* TRENDY BUZZWORD ALERT */ infrastructure is going
to be a large portion of the cost.  A large portion of that portion is
going to be personnel costs.  I agree that non-teacher personnel costs
are probably, in most jurisdictions, outrageous (it's certainly true
of the Maryland schools), but I'm not quite as shocked as you are at
the "figure" of "half of all personnel costs" going to non-teachers.
When you add the myriad legitimate functions of administrative staff
to the staff we've already mentioned, a figure of "half" doesn't seem
to me to be so outrageous.  Show me specific numbers broken down into
more specific categories of school system employees, and I might start
to work up a sweat over it.  
--
 From the catapult of:              |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_  J. D. Baldwin, Comp Sci Dept|+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  U.S. Naval Academy|+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /   baldwin@usna.navy.mil   |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: Gosbell@FEDCMAC.EDC.RMIT.EDU.AU (Kerryn Gosbell)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Energy efficiency in higher education
Date: 24 Nov 92 00:06:05 GMT
Followup-To: misc.education
Organization: RMIT
NNTP-Posting-Host: kerryn.edc.rmit.oz.au

RMIT university in Melbourne is conducting research into the incorporation
of energy issues into tertiary education curriculum and energy use on
campus.

As the projects Research Assistant I am seeking to compile information
regarding these two areas of energy in tertiary institutions across the
world.

Topics covered in course curriculum could include for example:
	% Energy efficiency and conservation
	% Environmental and social impacts of energy
	% Energy economics / cost
	% Energy management
	% Renewable and alternative energy
	% Energy use
	% Design for energy efficiency

I am specifically seeking to identify examples of curriculum materials and
activities such as research projects, guest speakers, field visits and
information sources used, but am also interested in finding out what
contexts are set for students. ie. Why is energy conservation worth
pursuing?

In addition, I am seeking information regarding any work that has been
undertaken which looks at the actual energy consumption of tertiary
institutions and at ways of reducing this consumption.

If anyone has information or relevant contacts in either of these two areas
I would appreciate hearing from them either through my E-mail address or by
sending material to me via the postal address below.

Thanks!

Kerryn Gosbell
Department of Planning, Policy & Landscape
RMIT
GPO Box 2476V
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia  3001
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: mfrancis@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (Ma. Elena Y. Francisco)
Subject: Re: School Year Round
Reply-To: mfrancis@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:12:38 GMT

hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter) writes:

>I am a School Board Member in Arizona.  We are currently reviewing a
>schedule change from traditional to year Round classes.
>
>Does anyone on the net have experience in this area.  I am lookng for some
>strong arguments for and against this issue.  My gut tells me its a good
>move, but many parents will be hard to convince.

I am a product of the year round system.  It was an interesting system:
9 weeks of classes, 3 weeks of vacation, and this circle continues on
for the entire school year.  This system was used during  my primary
school days.  It was good, mainly because the students will not
forget concepts learnt during the 9-week period and there are
constant breaks to keep everyone fresh.  Of course, parents will
complain because of the short period of the holidays, but one manages
to cope with it.

A high school in National City, CA tried going the year-round route.
If you can find someone who knows about Sweetwater Union High School
and ask them how they are coping moving from traditional to year-round,
then you may gain some valuable information that way.

Hope this helps.

regards,

--
==============================================================================
Lyn Francisco, First Year Graduate Student      |"There is no power stronger
Brandeis University, Dept. of Chemistry         | Than gentleness of heart."
BitNet:    mfrancis@brandeis.bitnet             |
Internet:  mfrancis@binah.cc.brandeis.edu       |          -- Jose Mari Chan
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Choice works in Harlem
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 18:19:27 GMT

Curt Finch supplies interesting material from The Economist about school
choice in Harlem and other parts of New York City. He might also look at the
article in the latest Atlantic, which describes the same schools in a less
complimentary way.
--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Where the extra money goes.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:09:07 GMT

In article <BALDWIN.92Nov16163242@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil>, baldwin@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov16.103650.320@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu
|> (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
|> >In NYC in particular, a large fraction of this money goes to janitors
|> >who make $20,000 more than teachers in this school system with some of
|> >the highest paid teachers in the country. NYC may be an exception with
|> >respect to the janitorial situation, but any district where half of
|> >all personell costs go to non-teachers is doing something VERY wrong.
|> 
|> I'm a big detractor of the inflated "support" costs of our educational
|> system, but I have to register mild disagreement with this statement.
|> "Half of all personnel costs to non-teachers" isn't specific enough to
|> address any real problem.  I suspect that some substantial portion of
|> the people labeled as "janitors" in the source that quoted the above
|> factoid are actually what might more accurately be called
|> "maintenance" employees, which are and ought to be in a different
|> category from "janitors."

You combined two seperate tidbits of information that I had in the above
paragraph.

A) Almost half of all salaries go to non-teachers in urban areas. This includes
anybody who doesn't teach including janitors, secretaries and non-teaching
administrators, and probably a whole bunch of other categories. Reguardless of
who is getting this money, 50% is simply outrageous. (Even my school district
wasn't this bad.) BTW, guidance counselors are usually considered teachers,
although in NYC (and probably most other urban school districts) they don't make
much of a difference.

B) The janitors in NYC school are outrageously overpaid and criminally negligent
as shown on 60 minutes.

Jason W. Solinsky
Xref: sparky misc.education:4427 alt.discrimination:4692 soc.culture.african.american:11367 soc.women:20031
From: guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu (Stanford Guillory)
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: 20 Nov 1992 12:54:53 -0600
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: debussy.crhc.uiuc.edu

stefan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stefan Michalowski) writes:

>or, for that matter, "my great-great-great-great grandmother ran the
>most wretched whorehouse in ancient Thebes, so add 10 points to my
>exam score"...

I hate to take offence at the last sentence of a long post, but I strongly
object to the inference that blacks get preferential treatment in the classroom
and in grading. I have NEVER, in my years as a student at three institutions, 
including one in the UC system, observed such incidents. 

Oh, BTW, I would just like you to know that as a black man, I am not the one
who reminds myself that I am black everyday. It is the white society that
I live in. I would hardly notice I am black if a white person didn't remind
me of it everyday. Think about that.

>Stefan

Stanford S. Guillory
guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.math,sci.physics
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:27:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.140906.29796@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) writes:
>In article <BxsELH.65C@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us
>(Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>>OK, so how do you explain the bad reputations teachers have among people 
>>who don't have kids in school (like myself)?  Has it occurred to you that
>>such bad reputations might be JUSTIFIED?

>     Maybe it is, but the problem can't possibly be that simple.  There
>are so many parents who send their children to school so ill-prepared
>and ill-disposed to learn that even a competent teacher could do little
>but keep order and dispense pablum.  

This is certainly *A* problem with this, but the way to respond to this
sort of thing is NOT to dispense pablum to everyone.  If there are students
who are truly hopeless (and I don;t think that is a very large percentage
even in the worst neighborhoods) then set them aside and admit they are 
hopeless, don't sacrifice everyone just to maintain "equality".

If you think that a good teacher can't teach something simple like reading
to even the most unmotivated kids, there's something wrong.  I think teachers
have the ability to educate those with bad influences at home, AND to educate 
those who have potential.  As things stand now, they do neither very well.

>North Americans (sadly, often even
>educated ones) don't have the right attitude to schooling and they pass
>these attitudes on to their children.  

Neither do most teachers, and they pass on those bad attitudes too.

>If the kids don't want to be
>there because their parents haven't given them reason to believe that
>there is a purpose to their presence in school, what exactly can a
>teacher do?

It's obvious!  The teacher can give them such reasons.  Remember, kids spend
more time talking to teachers than they do talking with their parents
(think about it...how many hours per day do kids spend talking with parents?).

>     I think that if you fix the parents, the teachers will fall into
>line.  Unfortunately, that's an almost impossible task.

What I know is that most of the teachers I have known are outright 
anti-intellectual when it comes right down to their real values.  Such people
are hardly likely to inspire (or even condone) real education.  Some kids DO
find a good teacher or have good parents who do get them on the right track,
but it's despite the educational system, not because of it. 

How do you reconcile this view with the examples of people like Jaime Escalante
and Marva Collins?  Why were they able to get good results out of kids who 
would otherwise have been failures if family attitudes were the primary 
determinants of success.

--Brian
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 04:47:07 GMT

>Although I don't think anyone has as a goal to equate the percentage of black
>engineers to thier percentage of the population. Rather, it is just to increase
>the percentage

Why? What are the excuses for such overt racism?

>If 9% of engineers were black, I don't think anyone would see
>a problem. On the other hand, 4% seems absurdly low.

So 9% is your quota then?


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Xref: sparky misc.education:4460 alt.discrimination:4708 soc.culture.african.american:11463 soc.women:20181
From: kls30@cd.amdahl.com (Kent L. Shephard)
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:43:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Nov21.045615.19575@samba.oit.unc.edu>,
Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
>>I hate to take offence at the last sentence of a long post, but I
>strongly
>>object to the inference that blacks get preferential treatment in the
>classroom
>>and in grading. I have NEVER, in my years as a student at three
>institutions, 
>>including one in the UC system, observed such incidents. 
>
>Many colleges provide special preferred academic treatment for Blaks.
>These include lower admission standards (in effect, adding points to
>SAT
>scores, etc.), tutoring, mentoring, organization memberships, which
>are

I don't agree with lowering admission standards but the fact remains that inner
city schools where most AfAm attend are not adequate for college prep and the 
schools in suburbia are.  How do you solve the problem of a bright AfAm
student 
that has a lot of potential not being able to get into college because
his high
school was crap?

Also what is preferential about tutoring.  At SFSU and SJSU I was a tutor for
the AfAm organizations.  So.  Does it make me a racist because I volunteered
my time to the AfAm organizations and not the white?  I don't think so.
Since when have white engineering or any other students had a problem getting
a white tutor?  One reason for having AfAm tutors is the problems we experience
are a lot different from white students.  If a white student asked for help i
wouldn't refuse but I didn't look in the halls for white students to tutor like
I did AfAm either.

As far as mentors go.  When was the last time a white student had a problem
finding a white professional with the same type of career goals as he/she?
Now ask how many AfAm engineers most high schools students see.


>denied Caucasian students. Perhaps you didn't realize such advantages
>made available to you were race restricted.

White student have never had problems as a whole with all the things you list.
AfAm students have had serious problems in those areas.  
whites have had the biggest quota system in ameriKKKa.  When you deny AfAm and
other people of color admission to an institution you are gcreating a 100%
white quota.



>
>--
>   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
>     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
>        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
>           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80

-- 
/*  What me, speak for Amdahl?  Get real.  These opinions and statements  */
/*  belong to me and me only.   If something I said offends you, it's     */
/*  either you got a thin skin or that I'm just offensive.  Who cares.    */
/*                                                                        */
/* kls30@cd.amdahl.com  -  Don't send NeXTmail!!                          */
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Block Schedule
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 23:48:17 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@analog.eng.umd.edu


In article <1992Nov23.230743.781@mwc.vak12ed.edu>, bcarroll@mwc.vak12ed.edu (Brian F. Carroll) writes:
>Our high school is currently looking at a 4 block schedule for
>next year....90 min. classes.  I would like to hear from anyone
>who can speak about the transition from a 7 period day to a 4
>period day.  Let me know.  Thanks.

   A lot of folks have problem paying attention for 90 minutes, esp.
if it is a strict lecture format.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 12:55:30 GMT

In article <1ejbqvINNk7@debussy.crhc.uiuc.edu> guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu (Stanford Guillory) writes:
>clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:

>>    The question is whether such "bias" is ultimately effective.  For example,

>Oh, I am in total agreement. My point is merely that to condemn all bias as 
>evil and akin to Naziism is naive.

Nazism was a complex political movement which blended racism with various
other bad collectivist ideas.  It was a particularly nasty response to the
same ideas being expressed by various other advocates of "bias".

>>The question is, therefore, what is the goal of preferential treatment?

>>Is it to create a percentage of engineers that is equivalent to the
>>racial or female percentages in society?   

>Although I don't think anyone has as a goal to equate the percentage of black
>engineers to thier percentage of the population. 

On the contrary, I think that is exactly what a great many people are after.
Some wouldn't even be satisfied with that!

>Rather, it is just to increase
>the percentage. If 9% of engineers were black, I don't think anyone would see
>a problem. On the other hand, 4% seems absurdly low.

That depends on your assumptions.  Personally, I don't care whether the
percentage is 1% or 99% as long as each individual is treated as an
individuals rather than some stereotyped member of a racial group.  I can 
easily imagine a situation which is unjust where the percentage is at any
particular level.  On the other hand, as long as INDIVIDUALS are not treated
according to their race, I cannot imagine any percentage which would be
unjust.

Justice is something applicable to INDIVIDUALS, not to groups.

>>Even if the numbers increased
>>by this method, how effective is this in getting more students to go
>>into engineering.   How effective are "role" models?  

>This seems like the root of several excellent dissertations in sociology. I
>would like to know the answer myself. Frankly, after watching the Prime
>Time special on violence in the schools last night, I am a little disillusioned.

My original point was that intentionally setting up racial and sexual role
models teaches implicitly that race and sex make a difference, when the
lesson kids ought to learn is that this is false.  Any kid ought to 
feel equally comfortable having Thomas Edison, Issac Newton, Thomas Sowell,
Thomas Jefferson, or Marie Curie as role models regardless of whether they
are white, black, male, female, virginian, or french.  None of those things
metter and by pretending that they do, you nurture racism in the young.

--Brian

Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Home Schooling
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:08:29 GMT

Ken Gerke asks:

Are there any home schoolers in this news group?  We have been
home schooling since being introduced to the idea while teaching
in China for a year and I'd be interested in sharing thoughts.
Or is there another news group where this topic is discussed and
bantered about?

Sounds like two good topics, Ken--home schooling does get some discussion
here and deserves more, and teaching in China deserves discussion also (My
wife and I taught in Guangzhou in 1983, and tried to home-school our two
girls at the time).

About 2500 children currently do home schooling in British Columbia--a very
small portion of our 500,000 student population. Nevertheless, home schoolers
are seriously committed to the idea and many others would like to learn more.
So let's hear from people who are home schooling--and from those who have
taught in China or are thinking of doing so.

--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.education