HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: michael@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Michael of Nebadon)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.groups,alt.config
Subject: Re: Advertising on Net: how can we stop it?
Date: 14 Dec 92 04:29:04 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <1992Dec13.032746.3695@clarinet.com> brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) writes:
>No, I mean much more than misc.forsale -- though it is telling that the
>misc.forsale groups are the most popular on the net right now.  That should
>tell you something.
[ ... ]
>You misunderstand the desire of people to see advertising.  The fact
>that misc.forsale groups now surpass rec.humor.funny and alt.sex and all
>the computer books in readership says more than just that ads are
>desired in their own groups.  It says that people will go out of their
>way to see ads -- even ads that are put in an unorganized mishmash.
>
>The correct conclusion is that people would be even more keen to see
>just the ads that match their areas of interest.  The best way to do that
>is to define a tag to put on such postings so that those who have
>the philosophical problems can easily put them in a killfile.  Let the
>people -- the bulk of people -- who want to see useful commercial information,
>see it in the right place.

I'm confused by your use of the term "ad" in this post. The forsale groups
*are* at the top of my reading list, and I *do* go there to see ads. My
confusion rests with how this relates to commercial ads. I don't go to 
those forsale groups to see commercial ads... I go to see the used equipment
classified-ad-style postings from other Usenetters like myself.

BTW, I'm actually neutral on the commercial-posts-yea-or-nay discussion at
this point and have yet to be convinced one way or another by what I've
seen in this thread. I just want to caution you against reading the wrong
message into *.forsale.* and *.marketplace.* readership stats. It's safe
to say that the readers of those groups have a desire to see ads (as you
point out above), but it doesn't necessarily follow that they have a desire
to see commercial postings (as you _seem_ to be implying).

michael@afterlife.ncsc.mil
Xref: sparky news.admin:8750 news.sysadmin:1565 news.groups:24313 alt.config:7906
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.groups,alt.config
From: rchilder@us.oracle.com (Richard Childers)
Subject: Re: Advertising on Net: how can we stop it?
Organization: Memes-R-Us
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:26:41 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) writes:

>I don't know who said that argument.  USENET has been used for blatant
>commercial adverising for years.  The most widely read groups continue to
>include several which contain nothing but ads, ads that people have to
>and do pay for when they are placed in magazines, journals and newspapers.

Only by ClariNet ...


>Discussion, however, will change little.  Nothing legal is banned on
>USENET, because there are no rules at all.  So a ban on commercial
>advertising is as meaningless as a ban on stupid flames, though the latter
>would be far more beneficial.

This is not true. What passes on Usenet is strictly a function of what it is
that people are willing to put up with.


-- richard

-- 
=====
-- richard childers		rchilder@us.oracle.com		1 415 506 2411
         oracle data center  --  unix systems & network administration
                    Klein flask for rent. Inquire within.
From: ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi)
Subject: Re: All your postings to this newsgroup might go wasted!
Organization: University of Vaasa, Finland
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 07:30:58 GMT

In article <1gthfkINNr07@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.173757.7781@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, w8sdz@tacom-emh1.army.mil (Keith Petersen) writes:
>> The rmgroup *was* from me.  David Lawrence left to go on extended
:
>> The vote was overwhelming, the highest in Usenet history, to RENAME

>However, the normal practice for a renaming is to retain the old group for
>a couple of months before removing it. This is what was done for all of the
>renamed newsgroups I can remember. In addition, Dave Lawerence will schedule

We simply were not aware of this.  Rule breaking was most definitely
not in our intentions.  (No one is saying that, but I state this
just for the record).

>I don't think any damage has been done but until the rmgroup comes from David, expect that many sites will ignore it.

If I may, I would like to open a discussion on this rule we
inadvertently broke in good faith, because is it not necessarily a
very sensible rule.  Think of persistent double groups like
comp.sys.ibm.pc and comp.os.msdos..  I suspect that the problem is a
direct consequence of the rmgroup delay rule.  In the cases of
renaming a group the excessively long transition period will be
confusing to the users, and potentially has harmful effects of the
new group getting going. 

I am not asking for an exemption from these commonly accepted rules.
What I am asking instead is that this rule should (perhaps once
again) discussed, since to me it seems a bad practice.

So I hereby move it that the rule should be changed for the renaming
lag to be 15 days at the most.  (Not for us as a favor, but as a
general policy change.  It is too late for us anyway, I guess).  I
also move (this may not be such a good idea) that in CFVs the users
could be given a choice of the lenght of the transition period. 
This would be up to the person calling for the vote.

   All the best, Timo

..................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi      Co-moderator of comp.archives.msdos.announce
Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous FTP archives 128.214.87.1
Faculty of Accounting & Industrial Management; University of Vaasa
Internet: ts@uwasa.fi Bitnet: salmi@finfun   ; SF-65101, Finland
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:31:41 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <EMCGUIRE.92Dec17100942@fuller.intellection.com> emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
>    vida@chop.isca.uiowa.edu (VIDA Telnet Account)
>
>Third, I know Vida personally.  Not that it matters, her vote ought to
>have been counted.

Ed, I'm not sure this is Vida.  It may be an account for the project
that Bob Christiansen is running over at the hospital.  She's involved
with it, so who knows?  For the sake of completeness, I'll check into
this.  (Did someone say anal?  <grin>)

-- 
Bryant Durrell					   durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 I feed on the flesh of the living, and I vote.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:04:16 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>Not according to my newsspool. I've seen twice the traffic in the 
>>old group that was in the new group. 
>...largely due to YOUR flamewar. Congratulations.

It's not JUST mine. 

(Wait...let me finish this for both of us...)

You: "But you started it"
Me:  "You helped me continue it"
You: "IF you hadn't have acted there'd be no problem"
Me:  "I had to do something about the r.m.s problem"
You: "There wasn't a problem until you stepped in""
Me:  "That wouldn't have mattered one bit. The group would still be split."
You: "That was largely due to your flamewar..."
...etc...
...etc...

(OK?)

-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

          You possess only what will not be lost in a shipwreck.
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: 15 Dec 1992 16:07:13 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Dec14.220327.12862@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>>You're forgetting the messages posted with an explicit Subject: line...
>All ONE of them?

At least two; after all, the one we saw here was a reply...

>>I assume you have a better idea. Please state it. I might even go along with
>>it, if it's workable.
>It won't be to you. Trust me. 

How do you know? Try me.
Besides, if not, I promise (and, I expect, others will too) to explain why,
and you can use that to help refine the proposal.

>>article with the subject "They want to rename rec.music.synth", what can we do
>>for them?
>How about some net history?

Such as? The articles do exist...

>How about posting the articles more frequently?

How frequently?

>How about explaining (in simple terms) what can happen (c.f.
>alt.folklore.comptuers) in USENET politics?

If the articles don't exist to your satisfaction, why not write one?

>>>>Is it your contention that professional keyboardists are simply
>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>too damned dumb?
>Well...it was your implication.

Nope. I was asking if you believed that. I certainly don't.

>Is _that_ why you are so opposed to a revote?

No. I'm opposed to a straight revote because it's outside the rules...the only
rules we have. I've had to accept newsgroup results that I think were bad; in
order for me to accept a revote, we'd have to revote several other groups,
too, and that ain't gonna happen.

>>There is no way to tell otherwise when dealing with a process that requires
>>voluntary participation. To say otherwise is to accuse those who do not vote
>>of stupidity or worse.
>How about misapplied but intelligent filtering of articles?

Nope...if you don't read an article telling you something you don't like is
about to happen, EVEN WHEN THE ARTICLE SAYS THAT WILL HAPPEN IN ITS SUBJECT,
then you either don't care enough or you're too dumb to recognize it.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: amdunn@mongrel.UUCP (Andrew M. Dunn)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.security.email
Organization: A. Dunn Systems Corporation, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 15:23:30 GMT

In article <1gouiaINN3v2@news.UU.NET> Ran Atkinson <atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil> writes:
>  This is a formal Request for Discussion on creation of a newsgroup
>to discuss electronic mail security and software to provide additional
>security in email.
>
>PROPOSAL:
>  Create a new newsgroup: 	comp.security.email

This is going to be one of those toughies where there are two good
spots in the hierarchy, both making sense.


     comp.security.email

and

     comp.mail.security


Is it a discussion of security as it relates to email, or mail
security?    Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I'd almost think, since the topic is quite tightly bound to mail
that it might be better to put it in the mail tree.

Just my $0.02


Andy

-- 
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------:
:  Andy Dunn           <amdunn@mongrel.UUCP> or <dunn5177@mach1.WLU.CA>   :
:  "AT&T thinks Usenet is an Underground organization" - are we really?   :
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------:
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:27:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: gaia.1gnsf3INN3fp
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <2B2F477A.937B@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley):
>>Renaming a group, in and of itself, has no effect on the contents of
>>that group.
>
>I think you've oversold your case, John: renaming *has* an effect.

Ok, this one is wrong.

>For example, comp.unix.sysv386 is now named comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit;
>with its new name it gets new traffic related to non-SysV UNIX.

When I made that statement, I was thinking of the minor renaming that
happened to r.m.s. Adding "makers" to the name would be like adding
"users" to the comp.unix.sysv386 name. The scope of r.m.s has hardly
been broadened to the extent that changing sysv386 to pc-clone.32bit
did.
From: dseal@armltd.co.uk (David Seal)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:37:21 GMT
Distribution: news
Organization: A.R.M. Ltd, Swaffham Bulbeck, Cambs, UK

In article <1992Dec15.003109.1542@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon
Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <1gg5q1INNfn0@gaia.ucs.orst.edu>
>stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>>
>> Renaming a group, in and of itself, has no effect on the
>> contents of that group.
>> 
>No? Then why bother renaming groups at all? This notion of
>'namespace purity' as a disconnected concept from how
>the names affect how groups are located, read and posted
>to is intriguing.

Because:

(1) It helps sysadmins manage the traffic their site gets. E.g. it's a lot
    easier to tell the news software "don't get comp.binaries.*, except for
    comp.binaries.<your-system>" than it is to say "don't get
    comp.atari.bin, comp.sys.apple.binaries, comp.binaries.ibmpc,
    comp.sys.atari.programs.binaries, comp.unix.binaries,
    comp.unix.wizards.binaries, (include 20 other randomly-named binaries
    groups here)". These are obviously a whole lot of miscellaneous made-up
    names, but they're the sort of random mess that *would* occur if people
    didn't try to keep the namespace reasonably clean.

    Not merely is the latter choice more work to set up: it also takes more
    space in the newsgroup selection file. Some news software has limits as
    to how long this can be: combined with a messy namespace, this could
    make the job impossible...

(2) It can help *outsiders* find the group.

IMHO, reason (1) is the most important one: within reason, the newsgroup
hierarchy should be arranged to make it as easy as possible for sysadmins,
with groups they are likely to want to treat similarly placed together.
Reason (2) is also important, but should be subservient to reason (1) in
most circumstances. E.g. reason (1) says that a proposed group to deal with
indigenous American culture should be somewhere in soc.culture.*; reason (2)
should be a factor in choosing the exact name within soc.culture.*.

David Seal
dseal@armltd.co.uk

All opinions are mine only...
From: h235_030@ccvax.ucd.ie (TOP GUN)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.sport.rowing
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:13:51 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: University College Dublin

In article <1gjc0nINN2q1@news.UU.NET>, gumby@spock.uucp (Danny Richman) writes:
> Proposed Newsgroup: rec.sport.rowing
> 
> Type: UNMODERATED
> 
> The purpose of rec.sport.rowing is to provide those who are interested
> in the sport of rowing, with the ability to communicate with other fellow
> rowers throughout the civilized world.  It would serve as an informant for
> those who no nothing about the sport, those who want to share the latest
> information on races and new equipment, and those who just want to share
> their experiences with everyone else.  It gives everyone the opportunity to
> enhance their knowledge of rowing and keeping fit. 
> 
> 
> Acceptable Postings:
> 
>         1.  Any questions, comments, results, or suggestions which are related
> to either rowing or erging.  
> 
>         2.  Any postings which may fall into the rowing category must deal
> with:  sweep oar rowing, sculling, or coxing.
> 
> 
> The proposed newsgroup, rec.sport.rowing, would open up a new frontier for 
> rowers around the world.  Currently the only newsgroup which rowers are only 
> slightly welcome to is rec.boats.paddle.  Rowing is completely unrelated to 
> canoeing, kayaking, or river rafting, and the discussions which take place 
> there are of no interest to rowers.  Therefore, it is necessary for a new 
> newsgroup to come into existence.  Having a separate rowing group allows
> readers to gain a sense of unity, and gives them the ability to discuss 
> topics which interest everyone in the particular group.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ------EVERYONE who supports rec.sport.rowing, please contact both me (Dan) at 
> gumby@choate.edu, and Mark at MDD114@psuvm.psu.edu.  Also we need someone 
> who is an experienced vote taker to be in charge of the CFV,  Any vounteers???
> Also, spread the word to others about this proposed newsgroup.  The CFV should
> be in about a month from now.  
> 
> Any suggestions for this charter please e-mail me.....

We are members of UCD boat club and we have become disillusioned with the 
lack of a relevant NEWSGROUP for rowing.

We would be delighted if one were to be started up and we'd be only too
happy to contribute to it.You have our full support.
				
				Tom MCcarthy.
				Ruairi Young.
				Steve 'kegs' Gaffney.
				Tom Hunt
				Tom Henry.
						National champs 1992
From: gt7797a@prism.gatech.EDU (Travis Works)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Date: 13 Dec 92 17:52:25 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In <id.97RV.ETA@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:

>	Vote for one or more of the following names, or NO GROUP:

>		foo.bar
>		rec.foo.bar
>		sci.aquaria.bar
>		NO GROUP

>The criteria for winning would be:

>	If NO GROUP gets >50 (100) votes, the group fails.
>	Otherwise, if one or more groups get >100 (200) groups,
>		the group passes, with the group name being the group
>		with the most votes.
>	Otherwise, the group fails.

So if I'm the only person that doesn't like a new group and a thousand other
people do like it, all I have to do is propose a dozen or so different names
and the group will fail if each name gets less than 200 (or whatever) votes?
Take for example the rec.cyber discussion:
If 90 people vote for rec.games.cyber
   90 people vote for rec.games.frp.cyber
    0 people vote NO GROUP
Then you're saying this result shows that there's obviously no interest
in the group?  NO WAY!!!!
!
>More complicated mechanisms for choosing the name can be used, so long
>as they are no more liberal than this.

Do you just not like new groups or something???

>-- 



-Travis Works
(sorry, I'm not used to vi in ansi)

--
From: baldwin@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Court Rulings Hierarchy
Date: 14 Dec 92 13:54:33 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dep't., U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD
In-reply-to: rynes@slc3.ins.cwru.edu's message of 11 Dec 92 15:21:22 -0400

In article <1gapnkINNm7n@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> rynes@slc3.ins.cwru.edu
(Edward M. Rynes - M.E.D./P.o.D.) writes, quoting me:
>>4.  Interesting that my original post said, essentially, "What's the
>> rush?" yet no one has responded to that central point.  The person
>
>I believe I did but I shall reiterate.  UUNET is dropping the service
>and I would like to get this going before they do so there is not an
>interruption of service.  Note that not everyone has FTP access.  In
>fact, most of the people that we get mail from have no network connection
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>at all.  So setting up regional FTP servers will not serve these people.
 ^^^^^^

OK, you've got me confused.  How is a newsgroup, regardless of the
name, the hierarchy or the distribution issues, going to help people
with no e-mail, no ftp and "no network connection at all"?  I mean,
I'd love to include absolutely *everybody* in the wonderful USENET
world, too, but this seems a touch impractical.
--
 From the catapult of:              |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_  J. D. Baldwin, Comp Sci Dept|+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  U.S. Naval Academy|+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /   baldwin@usna.navy.mil   |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LEAVING THE NETWORK AT XMAS.  Write me after 1 Mar 93 at: LT JD Baldwin, USN
                                                          AIR OPS DEPT
                                                          USS Nimitz (CVN-68)
                                                          FPO AP 96697-2820
From: Richard.Mathews@West.Sun.COM (Richard M. Mathews)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.baltic
Date: 11 Dec 1992 13:07:10 -0800
Organization: Sunsoft Inc., Los Angeles, CA.
NNTP-Posting-Host: pongo

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>This is a request for discussion of creating of the newsgroup
>soc.culture.baltic, which I think is long overdue.

I wholeheartedly support this proposal.

>As some people might know there is also a LISTSERV list, BALT-L with
>the same charter. This list is moderated....

I understand the problems with linking the newsgroup and mailing list.
For me, though, reading news is much more convenient than reading mail.
Can we at least have a one-way gateway, with BALT-L articles regularly
posted to the newsgroup (perhaps as a digest)?  Then I could cancel my
BALT-L suscription and just stick with news.

     Richard M. Mathews			Lietuva laisva = Free Lithuania
					Brivu Latviju  = Free Latvia
Richard.Mathews@West.Sun.COM		Eesti vabaks   = Free Estonia
					        WE  DID  IT!!!
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Summary: Damn straight I am
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:20:31 GMT

karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>>>The very fact that a ballot pups up right in front of their noses is
>>>a pretty good hint that a vote is going on.
>>Prove that it popped up in front of their noses.
>Dave, it's up to you to prove that "they" would
>have cared if "they" had seen the CFV.

Sounds just as hard as proving that it popped up in front of
their noses. 

It's interesting...when I ask someone else to prove something,
(which I've been asked to do many times) they rebut with 
"No, YOU prove it". 

This is just as bad or good as saying "No I won't prove it". Since
I've already taken a position of the latter, I will continue to.
But it's an interesting observation. 

>This business of claiming that "{the silent majority|
>God|the unfairly disenfranchised multitude} is on my side"
>is a favorite tactic of scoundrels.  You're using it in
>a way that smacks of demagoguery: using scary arguments
>about fairness and freedom to claim that an
>injustice has been done, without ever establishing
>that there's really a constituency that feels wronged.

And this business of asking for established proof, failing to
answer one's opponent's calls for proof after this asking, and
implying that someone is a scoundrel is usually used by people who
want to take unfair control of things. Are you one of those?

>I fully expect that Dave will answer by extracting part of
>this posting and considering it out of context, as he's
>been doing for weeks.  Please prove me wrong and show that
>you can face criticism, Dave.

I'm not proving anything. And I can face your best shot. :-)
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

A man had lost a ring. His friend stopped by that morning and offered to help.
By late-afternoon, his friend remarked "I don't see it anywhere. Are you sure 
you lost your ring here?"
"Oh no," replied the man, "I lost it in the room over there...but the room
is too dark. Here I can see better."
Newsgroups: news.groups