From: zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Philosophical Influence & Goedel
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:47:11 GMT
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <1992Aug16.162736.26402@uwm.edu> 
hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes:

>From article <1992Aug16.033821.14784@husc3.harvard.edu>, by
>zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny):

>>In article <1992Aug14.164819.20890@uwm.edu>
>>hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes:

>[...]

MP:
>>>And what would 'influence' mean?  Number of footnote citations or
>>>articles generated?  Fichte was all the rage, but I'd be willing to
>>>argue that Kant -- probably -- had more influence on philosophy.
>>>--although not where the 18th century was concerned.  At that time any
>>>philosopher with any brains at all would have pointed out that Kant
>>>was interesting, but passe.  I mean, why deduce transcendental
>>>categories when you have identity philosophy and <gasp>dialectic?

MZ:
>>Well, there you are then.  Just try and articulate what constitutes Kant's
>>influence, in all its splendor and magnitude.

MP:
>Eek.  The number of other philosophers who felt compelled to borrow,
>reconstitute, or rebel against his content and method, I suppose.  But
>I'm not sure this is all of the question.

Quite so: I am concerned more with the quality of influence than any
of its quantifiable aspects.

MP:
>>>Anyways, short form: 'most influence' means 'most influence on my work'
>>>means 'who I like the most' means 'who I find the easiest to
>>>understand.'  
>>>
>>>[geez, pretty cynical today....]

MZ:
>>I have no problem with that.  In fact, these days my claims to universality
>>of judgment are pretty much limited to a priori matters.

MP:
>Analytic apriori, or synthetic apriori?

As a logicist, I am sworn to uphold the former.

MP:
>>>My lord, something we agree on?  Maybe I'm wrong then.  -) 

MZ:
>>The sheer diversity of your ascii iconography never ceases to amaze me.
>>Aside from that, our agreement has been noted and cherished.

MP:
>Hmmm, sure.  Well, in the Toronto electronic community, -) was used
>more often than ;-).  It implies 'tongue in cheek,' a much better and
>more useful emoticon, I think, than smileys....  Never caught on on
>the internet.  A slip of the fingers.

You are forgiven, but don't let this happen again.

MZ:
>>Both set theory and analytic philosophy have histories, reaching back as
>>far as any other philosophical subject.  Surely their content is not not
>>limited to the popularity of their subject matter.  I am willing to wager
>>that Frege and Cantor will have a far more lasting influence on philosophy
>>than any of their contemporaries, with the possible exception of Nietzsche.
>>The nature of this influence is of great interest to me.

MP:
>Cantor, definitely.  And Frege.  

I thought you were the one who dragged in Nietzsche, along with Henry
Ford.  What gives?

MP:
>>>Following influence through the history of the discipline is useful,
>>>mostly, as an aid to understanding why someone wrote as they did, and
>>>thus getting a handle on just what they meant.  I couldn't have
>>>understood Hegel without knowing something about Kant, or Heidegger
>>>without Nietzsche, or Ian Hacking without some Popper, or a host of
>>>Anglo-Americans without some Russell or Lewis.  So where does that
>>>leave us?

MZ:
>>Just at the point where we must recognize that understanding is a
>>historical process; so, for example, I must protest when Randall says
>>this sort of thing:
>
>[...]
>
>>On the contrary, without detailed knowledge of who influences you, it is
>>impossible to tell what you mean, and consequently impossible to tell
>>whether it's true; as for the complementary question of whom you influence,
>>it can be most valuable in determining the pragmatic ramifications of your
>>theses, which, I believe, are inseparable from their meaning.  

MP:
>Well frankly Mikhail, I'm not sure how much more of this I can stand.
>We are in accord on this....

Look out, -- more of this, and you'll never get tenure!

MZ:
>>Sade said through one of his characters, writing is the perfect form of
>>crime....

MP:
>This, I'm willing to bet, gets closest to the answer.

The divine marquis will be thrilled.

>hiho
>-- 
>mark ce peterson   | uw-washington county  | hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu 
>dept of philosophy | west bend, wi.  53095 | (414) 335-5200        
>
>    The shorter the tether, the sooner the goat starves.

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
"Un de mes plus grands plaisirs est de jurer Dieu quand je bande."