From: hakim@bigq.enet.dec.com (Kamran Hakim)
Subject: Re: Reply to  Bahaies  gang
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:27:02 GMT


Dear Seyyed, Thank you very much for your warm reply.
In article <1992Apr11.045532.8134@wuecl.wustl.edu>, seyyed@wuee1.wustl.edu 
(Seyyed Mahdavian) you write:

SM>	Well, feelings and sentiments are necessary, but not sufficient.
SM>Let me tell you honestly something: when you told me about Bab and Baha,
SM>one of the first things that I thought about, was the resemblance to the
SM>story of Jesus and his denial by Jews. I honestly asked myself: how do I
SM>					    ^^^^^^^^
SM>know that the same thing is not happening again? Well, this was the job
SM>of my feelings. It was indeed necessary. 

I do not doubt your honesty, and I appreciate the effort you have made. 
However, I'd like to emphasize that regardless of one's honesty it is 
possible to UNWILLINGLY take an APPROACH which make it impossible to 
make a FAIR FINAL ASSESSMENT.

SM>Without such feelings, one could
SM>easily kill Ali-ibn-Abitaleb and think it is "ebadat" and do it on "ghadr"
SM>night for more "savab"! 

I wonder if 20000 of the followers of The Bab and Baha'u'llah has been
put to death, over the past 148 years in the absence of "such feelings"?!

SM>But it was not sufficient. I cannot provide enough
SM>logic to sustain this assumption. It's not acceptable to interpret everything
SM>spiritually. 

Seyyed, the logic of an issue is dependent on the depth of one's knowledge 
and understanding. To a 10 years old E=mc2 is illogical. However, when he 
learns about modern physics in college, the logic of this equation becomes 
evident and forms the foundation of his future studies in particle physics. 
If you could not "provide enough logic to sustain this assumption" perhaps 
you have not researched the issue to the degree that you had to!?

SM>Maybe I am more eager than you to be a real follower of Mahdi (a). I am sure
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SM>that when he will appear, he will be denied by a lot of people. 

I am quite sure about this. However, eagerness to be a doctor does not 
imply that one becomes a doctor. Hard work and scholastic excellence
are the fundamental prerequisites in this endeavor. 

SM>But at the
SM>same time I cannot rush onto the first man who claims to be Mahdi (a).

You must not. No one is expecting you to accept any claims, but, to 
be fair in your judgments. True judgment, however, requires UNDER-
STANDING and FAIRNESS. As a result, one must examine various claims 
and make an honest attempt to determine their truth or falsehood. The 
question is where must one seek the PROOF in order to distinguish truth 
from falsehood, and judge between right and wrong? Prophet Muhammad 
established the Qur'an as the proof of His claim. He challenged His 
contemporaries to read Its verses and produce its like. The Bab has also 
established the same criteria in His Writings:

"Should a person lay claim to a cause and produce his proofs, then those
 who seek to repudiate him are required to produce proofs like unto his. 
 If they succeed in doing so, his words [i.e. the words of the person
 who lay claim to a cause.] will prove vain and they prevail; otherwise 
 neither his words will cease nor the proofs he hath set forth will 
 become void....How numerous the people who engaged in contests with 
 Muhammad, the Apostle of God, and were eventually reduced to naught, 
 in as much as they were powerless to bring forth proofs similar to that 
 which God hath sent down unto Him."
					The Bab, Ketab-i-Asma  17:11

Since you have studied the Qur'an to understand it and as a result judge 
the truth of Muhammad at some point in your life, you must also make an 
attempt to study and understand the Writings of those who make claim to 
Mahdavi-yat to understand them and exercise fairness in order to judge 
their truth or falsehood. Such an approach is a sign of mindfulness and 
not rushing into things.

SM>Indeed Bab was not the only one to claim to be Mahdi(a). So it's just a matter
SM>of REAL CAUTION.

This is very true. Many have made such a claim. Therefore, one must examine
and understand with caution. However, it is wrong to refuse to examine and
understand in the name of caution.

SM>Bab's contradictory claims and his personality simply does
SM>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^                ^^^^^^^^^^^
SM>not match with Mahdi(a). 

I disagree with you on this Seyyed. The Bab claims are in the utmost 
degree of clarity. Please allow me to offer one such example:

"The Qa'im (He who is to arise) or Hujjat ('Proof') hath appeared with 
 verses and expositions as the Nuqta-i-Bayan (i.e. the Ba'b) who is 
 identical with the Nuqta-i-Furqan (i.e. Muhammad)..."
					The Bab, Persian Bayan 1:15

See how clearly The Bab is claiming to be the Mahdi, and equates Him-
self to Prophet Muhammad in His Book, Bayan. If you need more clarity 
please let me know so that I can offer you other quotes.

Please note that you have never quoted in the course of this exchange 
anything from the Writings of The Bab to establish the CONTRADICTION 
and the LACK OF VALUE you are promoting. This suggest to me that you 
have not examined the claims of The Bab in any depth. Please understand
that I am not attempting to be sarcastic here. I wonder if someone among
the Muslim friends understands this issue to the extent that he/she is
willing to establish this truth in a discussion such as this in an
appropriate forum.

In reference to the question of personality one can only make a true 
judgment either through one on one interaction, or through reading 
another's writings. How could one make a fair judgment otherwise?

SM>And also I do not believe that predictions about
SM>Mahdi(a) are to be interpreted so much to change the whole thing.

Seyyed I think there is a misunderstanding here. Please consider the 
following examples from the Shi`ah Hadith and judge for yourself:

"In our Qa'im there shall be four signs from four Prophets. Moses, Jesus,
 Josef, and Muhammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from
 Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and 
 dissimulation; from Muhammad, the Revelation of a Book similar to the
 Qur'an."				Hadith, Bihar-ul-Anvar, vol 13

"Out of Bani-Hashim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new 
 laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. 
 Most of His enemies will be the divines (i.e. the religious leaders). 
 His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is 
 contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of 
 the Faith."				Hadith, book of Arba'in

"There shall appear a Youth from Bani-Hashim, Who will bid the people 
 plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He 
 shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation 
 unto the Arab. If ye hear it about Him, hasten unto Him."	
					Hadith, Imam Sadiq

I am neither changing the predictions about Mahdi, nor am I inter-
preting them. I HAVE ATTEMPTED to suggest that if indeed the Hadith I
have quoted above are correct, then the term "Seal of the Prophets" 
must have other profound meanings than; No other Messenger of God 
shall appear after Prophet Muhammad. Because if that is so, how could 
a new Book be revealed? I have offered these three quotes as a sample 
for your consideration there is a host of others.

SM>Dear kamran,
SM>I'll be happy to read any information you post on this subject, but let's
SM>please stop this discussion right now. 
SM>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is fine.

SM>However I want you to promise me
SM>something. Read Ali Shari'ati and Morteza Motahari's work, specially on
SM>the subject of Mahdi(a). Nothing important will be lost. At least you
SM>will have a better knowledge about others' view.

I will be happy to look into these sources. Please let me know where I
order these books from?

SM>Though I am not impressed, but it is necessary to thank you again for your
SM>kindness and respect.

Thank you for your consideration.

Warm regards,

Kamran Hakim
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian