From: blamb@hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Japanese employees and consumers [long reply with tangents]
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:12:26 GMT
Organization: Horizon Research, Inc.


=> In article <7444@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> blamb@hri.com
=> (Bill Lambert) writes:
=> 
=>  =}I'm familiar with those things, Mike, but I'm glad that you pointed
=>  =}them out, as some things are the exceptions that prove the rule.

In article <HARKCOM.92Nov16120723@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp>,
harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom) writes:
=>    Not quite.  What Mr. Fester posted was not exceptions to the rules,
=> but symptoms of problems with the system.  Employees in Japan are in
=> no way highly regarded as an asset to a company (except for the rare
=> company which is small enough to know what it's like not to have enough
=> applicants).  Large companies in particular are as bad as their US
=> counterparts in using their employees.  (I am an employee of a large
=> Japanese company and have a network of friends from various large
=> companies...)

As you know, I am also an employee of a large Japanese company's
subsidiary here in the U.S. Previously I have been employed by
both large and small U.S. electronics firms and computer makers.
It is true that the provision of creature comforts and benefits
in U.S. companies may be better in many cases, but my assessment
was based on what I perceive as the view of the management people,
and their percpetions of the employees contributions to the company
and their regard for their employee's training and career growth.
While not perfect, I believe that view is oriented toward much
longer term relationships and development of their employees value.

I think this view by Japanese managers generally enhances the symbiosis
between the company and it's workers. In the U.S., the worst companies
to their employees are the smaller to middle-sized public companies,
where the next tickertape or next quarter's profit will cause 
management to become tyrannical and interpersonally callous. When
things are going well, there is perhaps not so large difference,
but when things go badly, you will see the differences more exactly.

=>    One of the reasons I joined my company is that the literature paints
=> it to be a company which cares for its employees (and to a certain extent
=> this is true).  However, even my company trails far behind many US
=> companies (IBM, Lotus, Honeywell, Johnson controls) in its treatment of
=> employees.

Well... all I can say is, "maybe". IBM has a lot of trouble these
days and is thrashing around and cutting people, although relatively
humanely. LOTUS has good benefits and nice accomodations, but last
year they had a mass layoff where the security guards gathered 300
people or so in one room, told them they were layed off and showed
them where the door was. A short time later, they rented the Boston
Garden for an extravganza concert featuring Aretha Franklin and Ray
Charles for their customers on their 10th Anniversary. For years,
they dumped their money in the Charles River by the wheelbarrow full,
and now they are feeling the pinch and reacting like "average"
slimeball management. HP has always had a good rep, and is currently
doing well.

We can compare some specific cases, but I am satisfied about my
assessment of overall trends. I probably have a much better office
and facilities than someone of an equivalent position in Japan,
but even at that, their company's cost for those facilities might
be equal or greater based on real estate, utilities, and the costs
of equipment.

=>    And treatment of the customer is the same as in the US.  Big money
=> customers are given the VIP treatment while the average consumer is
=> trampled upon to a certain extent...
=> 
=>  =}I suppose your experiences are different than mine. On two occasions, I
=>  =}bought something that was tested by the shop and found to be defective
=>  =}*before* I left the premises, and immediately replaced.
=> 
=>    Most shops wrap things and you test them at home.  If you request
=> the product to be tested, some shops will do so but busy shops will
=> tell you to bring the product back if it's defective.  Replacements
=> are usually given just as in the US.

Hmmm... this must be because I look like a professional wrestler, and
they were afraid I might come back and squash their heads like grapes
if the product was defective :-)

You mentioned that the average consumer is trampled on to a certain
extent. In the U.S. you can still get competent, attentive, and
thoughtful service, but it seems to be becoming so rare that you
notice that case as the exception rather than the rule. In Japan,
poor service is noticed as the exception. I have had bad service in
Japan, but it was rare. I have had service here that is equivalent
to the service norm in Japan, and it too is rare. Your variable
may be mileage :-) 

>  =}I've also had
>  =}home appliances installed when *I* wanted (which was off 9-5 hours).
> 
=>    This is truly amazing.  Most delivery outfits run on very 'flexible'
=> schedules and don't even know when they will be in your area to
=> deliver.  At most companies they give you a date of delivery which you
=> can change to a later date.  On the day, you must be at home until they
=> deliver.  This can sometimes mean staying at home all until early
=> evening.  Some companies won't let you decide the date, and some won't
=> even give a definite date (they say it will be on a certain day or the
=> following day).  Some companies will let you specify afternoon or
=> evening for delivery as they run a morning route and an afternoon
=> route.  However these companies are usually more expensive (large
=> department stores and such)...  I have only dealt with one company
=> that would let me schedule a possible delivery for hours outside the
=> 9-5 range.  They agreed to bring my delivery last as I lived near their
=> center.  It took about 20 minutes of begging over the telephone to
=> get them to do this...

I think it was Masuda that mentioned some possible variables for our
different experiences. It's true that the department store where my
appliances came from was quite close to my apartment at the time, and
this was in Kanagawa-Ken, not Tokyo. But I didn't have to beg or plead
for the delivery time I wanted. Someone told me the store would deliver
at any time up until 9 PM, so I asked for 7. The guy came on the button,
set up the machines, tested them (washer & dryer) and tried to explain
how to use them (despite my lack of fluency). The difference between
this and the last time I had an appliance delivered here was striking.
Those guys dropped a reefer in the middle of my kitchen after showing
up in the afternoon for a morning delivery, left it wrapped in plastic,
and took off.

=>  =}And in spite of lack of a consumer protection mechanism, isn't it
=>  =}amazing to have that level of quality.
=> 
=>    The domestic quality level is not as high as propaganda wishes us
=> to believe.  Japanese manufacturers often have recalls that are kept
=> hush-hush to avoid bad publicity.  (I have participated in a few that
=> never made it to the media).  And I have seen recent recalls of Japanese
=> autos for reasons of things like poorly designed transmissions which
=> suddenly pop into or out of gear, brakes which fail due to design
=> flaws...

Well... I never meant to imply that such things never happen in Japan,
but quality as concept of eliciting repeat sales seems to be more in
general psyche in Japan. That doesn't mean that mistakes don't happen.

=>  =}In Japan, if a company's
=>  =}product is not up to snuff, word gets out pretty quickly, and
=>  =}nobody will buy it,
=> 
=>    No, it just goes on sale :)

Probably, "no body will buy it" was too strong. But probably you know
well that if the review of the NIKON SUPER 35 MEGA LENSE GIZMO
SHOOTER (or something) is good in the press, then their sales of
that item will be huge. The majority of people buying new cameras
that year will get that one because the media ranks it best. It
means a lot more than it does here where price is a larger factor
than quality or number of GIZMOS.

=>  =}hence you rarely will find the equivalent of
=>  =}an exploding Ford Pinto.
=> 
=>    Same for the US, you rarely find such things...  But when you find
=> them in the US the press has a hayday whereas in Japan you may not
=> even see it in the press...

Well... if you say so. I can't comment if I don't see them in the press.
You're there and I'm here.

=> In Summary:  Japanese companies seek the same thing (profits) as US
=> companies do.  They also use the same methods (trampling) to attain
=> it...  One can find exceptions in both countries, but these exceptions
=> don't a rule make :)

When the exceptions are less, it's easier to define rules. Yes... Japanese
companies are very profit oriented. No doubt. But in supporting that
profit motive, they act differently in certain attitudes. All I wanted
to point out that if you're a competitor, their attitude is less
tempered than American companies. If you a customer or an employee,
their attitudes are better for you than American companies: generally,
and somewhat... not totally and distinctly.

- Bill Lambert
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan,talk.politics.guns