From: kirby@xerox.com (Mike Kirby)
Subject: Re: Is SEI's CMM being used in Anger or ju
Reply-To: kirby@xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:40:25 GMT

In article 9471@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com, kambic@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Bonus, Iniquus, Celer - Delegitus Duo) writes:
> In article <18108@autodesk.COM>, drake@Autodesk.COM (Dan Drake) writes:
> > terry@asl.dl.nec.com writes:
> > + [much excellent material on un-reuse, etc., omitted]
> > The reference may be to a recent message of mine contrasting my
> > perceptions of Deming's and SEI's outlooks.  Having read Out of the
> > Crisis doesn't make me any kind of expert on Deming, much less Juran,
> > but consider this: Deming's consistent message is that hundreds of
> > companies have got into Continuous Improvement, outside of Japan as well
> > as inside, and he loads his writing with success stories.  *Obviously*
> > he doesn't think that a super-elite Level 5 status that virtually nobody
> > has achieved is a prerequisite.
> 
> Dan's point is fundamentally correct.  The ISO certification process requires
> continuous improvement from the get-go.  It turns out that a lot of the things
> that the CMM asks about will come into play.  A point made earlier by someone
> from Martin Marrieta (sorry-forgot name) expresses some of my thoughts. 
> "Here's a model", or if you got a model, "Here's some additional ideas."  The
> CMM is not gospel, but it can be useful.  On the other hand, you could have
> followed Deming and Juran without the CMM and improved quality.  Guess what:
> no silver bullets and no stock answers.
> 
> George Kambic
> standard disclaimer

It is my understanding that the ISO 9001(1987) document states that there must be
a documented process for the development and maintenance of software.  It does not
specify what that process is, or that the process should continously improve (remeber,
Continous improvement of Process is not the same as continous improvement of product!)

From the ISO 9001:1987,4.1.1

Quality Policy:
	The supplier's management shall define and document its policy
	and objectives for, and commitment to, quality. The supplier
	shall ensure that this policy is understood, implemented and
	maintained at all elevels in the organization.

From ISO 9001:1987,4,1,2.2

Verification resources and personnel
	The supplier shall identify in-house verfication requirements, provide
	adequate resources and assign trained personnel for verification activities.

	Verification activities shall include inspection, test and
	monitoring of the design, production, installation and
	servicing processes and/or product; design reviews and audits of the
	quality system, processes and/or product shall be carried out by personnel
	independent of those having direct responsibility for the work being
	performed.

Essentially I believe that the ISO 9001 standard is saying we want you to have
a quality process and we want it to be documented.  We could care less if you
change that process over the years. (of course, if the process doesn't work
they want you to change it, but that is different from continous improvement
of process).

Also it seems that much of the ISO 9001 quality standard is Management process
related.  There is not much talk of engineering processes.

I have been told that a competent level 2 organization should be able to iso certified
without much trouble.  A level 3 organization can do it with both hands tied
behind its back.  Anyone out there actually been ISO certified?  Comments??


Mike Kirby
Xerox Corp
E-mail: kirby.roch803@xerox.com




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