From: usenet@news.acns.nwu.edu (Usenet on news.acns)
Subject: Re: Territory of Ancient China : Tang Dynasty
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:57:08 GMT

In article <92Sep9.154034edt.132@orasis.vis.toronto.edu> liuyh@vis.toronto.edu  
(Yuanhui Liu) writes:
> In article <liqiang.716060575@kramden> liqiang@kramden.nyu.edu (Li) writes:
> >lix@yangtze.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li) writes:
> >
> >>In article <92Sep9.100531edt.128@orasis.vis.toronto.edu>  
liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu) writes:
> >>>In article <1992Sep9.022715.24826@leland.Stanford.EDU>  
claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
> >><>In article <95545@bu.edu> lix@xanadu.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li) writes:
> >><(deleted)
> >><>
> >><>Unfortunately (he did have good intentions, but...) the abolishment of  
Rou
> >><>Xin caused more deaths, according to what I read, since the punishment  
was
> >><>then changed to whipping, which often resulted in deaths.
> >
> >>Mr. Lu is right, but what I said is his awareness of human rights presented
> >>in his order. 
> >><>
> >><Liu Hen was a good emperor, but Han Dynasty's military was in a sad
> >><shape, china was still exhausted, Xiong Nu plunders the north at will,
> >><it was similar to the situation Li Shi Ming faced, but the Tang Dynasty
> >><managed to change from fending off the Tu Jue from 20 miles of its
> >><capital to wipe them out a couple of years later, with an exhausted
> >><country also.  You have to say that militarily Liu Hen or his son(Jin Di)
> >><was no comparison to Li Shi Ming, only until Liu Che(Wu Di) Han started
> >><to acquire the capibility of defending itself.  
> >
> >>Nah, Liu Che did too much more than defending. He even started war at his
> >>free will, and finally spent over all national reserves accumulated since
> >>Liu Hen. This is also exactly the pattern of QianLong to KangXi.
> >
> >><>>Similarly, KangXi is another surprise in Chinese history. No other
> >><>>emperors ever understood and taught his offsprings:
> >><>>
> >><>>Emperor is to manage the country,
> >><>>not the country to serve the emperor.
> >><
> >><Li Shi Ming was the first to speak the truth about the relation
> >><between the Emperor and his subjects:  Water can carry the ship,
> >><but it also can overturn the ship.  
> >
> >>This is exactly why KangXi is superior to TaiZong: In TaiZong's mind,
> >>people can be used, but may also present as a danger, if the emperor
> >>did not take care of them well enough. This is good, better than other
> >>emperors. However, the master-servant relation was reversed only in
> >>KangXi's couplets.
> >><>
> >><>Hmmm.  I am not sure the Liu Hen had any understanding of democracy, and
> >><>although he was an excellent emperior (IMO), he once almost executed the
> >><>entire family (the 3 Zu's) of a man accused of cutting a tree on the tomb  
of
> >><>his father, Liu Bon (Han Gou Zu).  Of course, everyone had their  
blemishes.
> >
> >>In any dynasty, cutting tree on emperors's tomb would be similarly  
punished:-(
> >>This was very severe crime at that time.
> >
> >><>Another emperor who ranks high on my list is Liu Shiu (Han Guang Wu Di).   
His
> >><>personality showed a lot of kindness and non-forgetfulness of the good  
things
> >
> >>Yeah, I think GuangWu should be ranked about the same level of TaiZong, the
> >>first rate emperors, while Han Wen and KangXi are super-rate.
> >
> >>-- 
> >
> >All the emperors mentioned are emperors with achievements. Discussions
> >on comparisons among them are absurd and unproductive and also biased.
> >
> >- Li, Qiang
> 
> Why not?  Why can we make comparsions about good emperors?  would you
> like to point out what other topics currently under heated debate
> are productive?  ST, TI, Tibet, Japan, which one is a productive topic?
> I thought this is supposed to be soc.culture.china.   
> 
> 

Good point!

Carl