From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.pagan survey
Date: 12 Apr 92 17:03:20 GMT
Reply-To: Leo Smith <shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk


 smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)

        A. As a percentage (0-100), what do you consider the ratio to
        be in this group? 100= every article is worthwhile; 0=nothing
        here is.

100. Everybody has a reason to post, and since this is about humans,
their experinece and their beliefs - it is all valid .

        B. What is the percentage if you discount skeptical or
        hostile postings from folk with other religions, or no
        religion at all?

85%

        C. What do you suppose others in the group feel the average is?

0-100% :-)

        D. Do you think that any and every posting *on neo-pagan topics* has
        actual value to you? (discount any amusement value)

I think that there is a problem inherent in your question: Your
worldview makes a distinction between serious value and amusement.
Mine does not. Therefore I cannot comply with the last phrase. Thus
my answer is 100%

        2. Someone posts a message to alt.pagan, claiming they can control the
        weather by magical means. They have not posted here before, or at
        least the name is unfamiliar. Are you *initially* inclined to accept or
        reject the news?

I would initially belive that they believed they could, and were not
in fact joking. All of us can affect the weather (cf butterfly
effect). I would see it as an example of an extreme way of looking at
the world.

        3.      Would you send them mail, asking for details?

If I could relate to their expereinece - yes.


        4. Someone posts a message, claiming all religions (or almost
        all) are aimed at the same divine figure. Others dissent the
        view. Which side would you take, privately?

I would not. Such topics are of little interest to me. How many
angels can you get on the head of a pin?

        5. Would you post your opinion on the topic of question 4?

Interminably.

        6. Do you believe that UFOs are explained by extraterrestial
        visitors? (not all, just some)

They are by some people. I would not choose to explain them in this
fashion though...:-)

Is that what you meant, or did you mean that extraterrestrial
visitors hold seminars and workshops in order to explain UFO's which
are actually something quite different - e.g.

MAN FROM MARS DENIES EXISTENCE OF ALIEN VISITORS ?


        7. Do you believe in magic?

Such a belief is necessary for its operation :-)

        8. If yes to 7: Do you practice magic (consciously)?

I think it practices me actually.....:-)

        9. If yes to 8: do you use ritual, or is it an innate ability
        that you can call upon at whim?

Yes. Yes. Anything and everything.

        10. Agree/Disagree: gods are best worshipped in a highly
        ritualistic setting. (Consider what is best for the
        *worshipper*, not the divine being. You can still answer this
        if you have no belief in a divine being).

Depends on the Gods. I worship the God of Formula One Motor Racing in
a very ritualistic way together with millions of zealous converts at
vast open air rituals. However worshipping the spirit of cat-kind can
best be accomplished by an informal tickle of my pet cat's ears.

        11. Agree/Disagree: you believe in one or more divine beings.

About 600 million of them actually:-)

        12. Are women holier and/or more capable of magic than men?

One more hole, capable of qualitatively different magic :-)

        13. Agree/Disagree: The method of worship is relatively
        unimportant, as compared to who is worshipped. (Ignore
        pathological cases, such as murdering as an act of worship.)

Disagree

        14. Agree/Disagree: all people are innately good.

What does good mean?

        15. Do you believe that only some people can practice ever
        magic?

Correcting for your grammar - no.

        16. Do you believe the universe is sentient (self-aware)?

Some bits of it think so:-) What else is there? [deep question]

        17. If yes to 16, does it care about the occupants,
        specifically humans?

It *is* the occupants. Isn't it ?

        18-22: answer as for the general case, discounting bizarre
        exceptions.

        18. Can a person be a neo-pagan and a believer in a
        monotheistic religion which claims a male gender for its god?

Don't see why not.

        19. Can a person be a neo-pagan and disbelieve in magic?

Probably

        20. Can a person be a neo-pagan and disbelieve in the divine?

Possibly, but seems little point.

        21. Can a person be a neo-pagan and disbelieve in the
        goodness of man?

I would hope so.

        22. Are satanists, properly speaking, neo-pagans? Why/why
        not?

I don't know what satanists are. There are those who like to use some
aspects of Setian and Pan-like images in theiur rituals - there are
ceremonial magicians of the Crowley persuasion who like
(mischeviously IMHO) to call themselves Satanists, and there are
schoolkids and mental cases (often actually members of the Christian
church) who get tired of the incessant suppression of real emotion
that their faith dictates, who go out and seek to deliberately break
their own religious taboos, with disasterous results for themselves,
their victims, and the mebers of the two groups previusly described
who get tarred with the same brush.

The first two groups are probably neopagans, although many of both
would emphatically dislike the label. The last are definitely not.
They are in fact Christians who have decided to address the darker
side of their faith.


        23. Some folk view the Newage movement and neo-paganism as
        more or less the same thing; others claim a vast difference
        between the two. Do you incline to either view? Which?
        Briefly, why?

I personally would say (and I betray my age here) that newage is to
paganism is to magick as bubble-gum music is to rock is to timeless
classical music (and BTW I put a lot of 'rock' in the latter
category). You may see them as a path of progression, or you may view
them on their own merits.

        24. Do you think Christians hate neo-pagans?
No.

        25. Do you think Christians hate neo-paganISM?

No. I think they are afraid of it tho.

        26. Do you dislike the Christian religion?

No.
        27. A neo-pagan you know develops a drinking problem (no, I
        am NOT hinting at whatever you think I am hinting at. This is
        hypothetical.) He or she goes to a group that helps him
        overcome his problem, but in the process adopts the
        Christian religion. Do you (choose all that apply): a) Not
        care (or be pleased), if he is happy. b) Mourn the loss of a
        good neo-pagan, but maintain contact. c) Generally avoid her.
        d) Try to convince him to abandon the religion. e) Tolerate
        her until she tries to convert you; then avoid her.

None of those. I would applaud the solution to the problem, and if
the person then closed their minds to other ways of relating to the
world - regretfully be unable to continue to discuss such matters.
However adopoption of Xtian faith is not ipso facto adoption of
bigotry and dogma :-)


        28. Do you believe, seriously, in reincarnation? (A yes
        answer implies that you believe that many people, possibly
        including yourself, have lived past lives or will live future
        lives after death).

I would have to write a whole book as answer to that. Perhaps I could
suggest a point of view by saying that I don't believe that time is
as linear or irreversible as you do, and in that context
re-incarnation ceases to be a meaningful term.

        29. Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or adhering to,
        Eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism...)?

Tremendously.

        30. Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or adhering to,
        Western religions (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam...)?

Judaeism very much, Xtianity less, and have very little knowledge of
Islam.

        31. Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or practicing,
        tribal religions (Amerind, African)?

See my i.d.

        32. Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or practicing,
        ancient religions (Babylonian, very early European)?

Definitely ancient european - less so the middle eastern

        33. Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or practicing,
        religions founded or based on extraterrestial beings?

No.

        34. Have you ever posted anything to alt.pagan?

A bit :-)

        35. If yes to 34: Do you consider yourself a frequent
        contributer to alt.pagan (one or more articles a month)?

Yes.

        36. How long have you been reading alt.pagan? 1) less than 3
        months 2) less than 6 months 3) less than 1 year 4) less than
        2 years 5) 2 years or more 6) since its inception

Less than 2 years, but haven't had time to get involved before.

        37. optional: How much money do you estimate that you spend,
        a year, on neo-pagan literature, devices, or traval to
        neo-pagan events?

Hah! You ought to have included computer equipment to download
alt.pagan! then we are talking serious sums:-) $1000 +- 50%


        38. Agree/Disagree: The teachings of Christianity are wrong
        in substantial ways.

As distinct from the teachings of *Christ* yes.

        39. Agree/Disagree: The teachings of Confucius are wrong in
        substantial ways.

No.
        40. Agree/Disagree: The teachings of Jesus are wrong in
        substantial ways.

No.

        41. Agree/Disagree: ESP and psychic phenonema are very likely
        real (discount obvious quackery and faked evidence)

I would call them fact.

        42. Astrology has real value in helping you make decisions
        about actions. Do you agree?

Never helped me.

        43. Do you think peace can be achieved by the year 2000?

What a dick headed question.

        44. Do you think peace will be achieved by the year 2000?

See above.

        45. Do you believe that thought alone can change external
        realities?

I don't believe in external realities.:-)

        46. Do you believe that most or all goddesses worshipped
        throughout history are the same being at heart?

Yes and no.

        47. Agree/Disagree: all major world religions, at core, are
        really trying to say the same thing (with varying degrees of
        success).

Not quite. Many of them come to similar conclusions about similar
matters, but not all are designed to address the same problems. To
say that two hypothetical religions come up with the same answer -
'Green cheese' and therefore agree, when they were, in fact developed
to answer two different questions - e.g. 'What is the moon made of?'
and 'What happens to the milk of cows if you leave it long enough in
the sun?' is a bit misleading.

Western culture tends to put religions in its own mould, that of
defining man in respect to the cosmos. Many eastern religions are
more concerned with arriving at a satisfactory modus vivendi.

        48. How long have you held your current religious or
        non-religous views? ('since childhood' is sufficient if
        appropriate; I don't want to know how old you are.)

About a millisecond. Since childhood. And anything in between. They
develop, they are not fixed, and I have never undergone a radical
'conversion'

        49. Have you adopted a religion different than the one you
        were raised with? (becoming an agnostic after being raised
        catholic, or becoming a quaker after being raised as a strict
        humanist/scientist, both count as yes.)

In the sense that I was raised a very lax Christian - yes. In the
sense that my current outlook reflects the knowledge available to,
and the preoccupations of, the culture I was introduced to, no.

        50. Do you believe that mankind now has a deeper knowledge of
        spiritual matters than previous generations did? (ie, is
        mankind slowly gaining wisdom in these matters?)

More knowledge, less wisdom. It is probably no bteer or worse overall
than it has ever been. It has the potential to be vastly *different*

        51. Someday, you will (or could) be as a god. Agree/Disagree.

I am already. So are you. I just haven't put on my long white beard
yet :-)

        52. Two neo-pagans get into a polite, but firm disagreement
        over which goddess is to be worshipped. One insists that a
        particular historical goddess is most correct (ie, Inanna).
        The other feels that all such goddesses are really the same
        at heart and it doesn't matter which you choose. If you felt
        inclined to enter the conversation, which side would you
        choose? 1=specific goddess 2=all goddesses

I wouldn't get into that argument.

        53. A christian and a neopagan get into a polite, but firm
        disagreement over which god is to be worshipped. One (the
        neo-) insists that all gods are are really the same at heart
        and it doesn't matter which you choose, including ones
        considered quite evil historically. The Christian argues for
        her One God. If you *had* to support one side or the other,
        which would you tend to prefer? 1=christian's god 2=all gods

2, for all the wrong reasons (like Xtian baiting:-))

        54. Variations in rituals (magical or worship) are
        unimportant, even if they are somewhat significant in nature.
        Agree/Disagree.

Yawn. Can I go home now?

        55. Ritual is a snare; all worship and/or magic should be
        highly spontaneous. Agree/Disagree.

Yes and no Depends on who is trying to achiev what.

        56. No religion is worthwhile or helpful unless followed with
        complete devotion, ideally as a life-long effort.
        Agree/Disagree.

Crap. Disagree. A religion that gets you through a tight spot and is
discarded is a valuable tool.

        57. It is right, good and helpful to select various pieces of
        various religions and combine them as a person sees fit.
        Thus, a buddhist-unitarian-judiac fusion might be a
        meaningful and worthwhile path for someone. Agree/Disagree
        (not necessarially with that specific example)

Not 'right good and helpful' but useful and appropriate?


        58. Have you made an in-depth study of two or more religions?
        (college-level studies, intensive independent reading, or
        several years of practice in a religion all count)

Just about.

        59. Have you "dabbled" in three or more religions in your
        life? (Dabbled indicates some attempt at learning and
        practice, but not in a serious (to your own mind) manner.)

No.

        60. Agree/Disagree: The neo-pagan movement is fun and
        enteraining, but not a serious thing.

Hmm. That is a good question. It is as serious as its practitioners,
and its opponents choose to believe it is, and insofar as their
beliefs en masse, can make significant adjustment to the world we
live in (without the need to pre-suppose any mind-matter linkage
other than the mundane) I think the answer is obvious.

        61. I find I am generally in agreement with postings on
        alt.pagan, when they pertain to pagan issues. Agree/Disagree.

Disagree. The whole point of discussion is to disagee, and then to
understand where and why - sometimes the disagreements are semantic -
which is trivial, and sometimes they relate to assumptins that are
being made, often without question. The value is being made aware
that ones own assumptions *are* assumptions, or vice versa.

        62. The Newage movement is dangerous to its practitioners,
        and you wish it would end. Agree/Disagree.

Anything is dangerous. Newage is a lot less crackpot that some
Xtianity.

        63. Magic cannot really be used for evil practices; such
        attempts generally backfire. Agree/Disagree.

The two are not inconsistent. Magic can be used for evil purposes,
and it will backfire. The result is that everybody loses ultimately.
This is not a particularly esoteric issue. I think it was summed up
most exactly by a 'Mr Natural' cartoon many years ago.

"He who shits in the road will meet flies on his return"


        64. Magic is neither inherently evil nor inherently good, and
        can be used in either way. Agree/Disagree.

Agree.

        65. A life not spent in improving the world and/or drawing
        closer to the divine is wasted. Agree/Disagree.

Disagree

        Witchcraft has been viewed as evil by many groups throughtout
        history. This is MOSTLY because (choose one): 1. It has been
        used in evil ways by some unscrupulous people in the past,
        giving it a bad reputation. 2. It relies on spirits and
        powers which are neither good nor bad, but some experiments
        into it have gone badly, giving it a bad reputation. 3. Magic
        really is fundamentally evil. 4. People always view as evil
        anything they do not do themselves.

Disagree with all of these. It has been viewed as evil because it was
part of the culture of a vanquished and occupied people, and the
vanquishers and oppressors saw in the preservation of that culture a
threat to their own position. The remnants of that exist today, in
the Christian/pagan conflict: This is merely an echo of the Roman
civilisation versus barbarian ball game that was played out over the
Dark ages, followed by the Christian/heathen conflicts of the
Crusades, leading up to the anti-semitism of the nineteenth and
twentieth centuries.

See how Islam views technology and the West (the Great Satan) is
exactly analogous.....

        67. Only certain kinds of magic are real; other kinds are
        fake. If you agree, you are espousing the view that, for
        example, cabalistic magic is real, but other kinds are not.
        Agree/Disagree.

Everything is real at some level.

        68. You believe that crystals can enhance a person's power,
        ability to live happily, or creativity. Agree/Disagree.

Never done much for me.

        69. You wish every piece of quartz on the planet could be
        ground to dust and scattered, because of all the nonsense
        spoken these days about quartz crystals. Agree/Disagree.

I do believe you have a sense of humour: You are dangerously close to
becoming a pagan :-0)))))))

        70. You believe in Astral, Ethereal, or other planes of
        existance. Agree/Disagree.

It is a very useful model that doesn't require stretching the
imagination too much, so is definietly worth believing in - say at
least a couple of times a week.

        71. I engage in fantasy roleplaying. Agree/Disagree. (This is
        different from, my system of belief was derived from fantasy
        roleplay).

Anyone who operates within the business and commercial community as I
do necessarily engages in fantasy roleplaying. Is this what you mean?

        72. There are no evil persons, only evil acts.
        Agree/Disagree.

I don't think people satrt of by embodying evil, but they certainly
can end up that way. I would say that if a person chooses to believe
in Self, above and beyond the World, then that person will probably
become either nauseatingly saint like, or incredibly evil. (I think
there is little difference in fact). Whetehr that self belief is
inherent or acquired I could not say.

        73. A wiccan you know becomes extremely angry with you
        (assume he has a reason to be angry). He storms off, with
        many a dark warning about what is going to happen you in the
        very near future. And sure enough, things start going wrong
        in your life, starting that very night. Do you 1. Assume he
        did something magical to you? 2. Assume it was coincidence?
        3. Asssume you have frightened yourself into unconsciously
        bringing problems down on yourself? 4. Assume that powers are
        attacking you, but not at his behest?

I would try methods based on all 4 premises and quite a few more.
Probably things would clear up after a while. I would not tend to
read too much into the whole affair.

74.     If you answered (1) to question 73, which action are you most likely
        to take? (Assume he remains angry and cannot be mollified).
        1. Plead with him to remove the curse.
        2. "Report him" to other wiccans, since he is misusing his power.
        3. Cast back!
        4. Wait it out.
        5. Pray to your chosen divine manifestation for protection.
        6. Pray to your chosen divine manifestation for vengance and protection.
        7. Retaliate non-magically against him (police, threats of violence,
                destruction of property, etc.)

3-7 inclusive :-)

        75. Peace can only be found in personal perfection (or a
        serious attempt in that direction). Agree/Disagree.

Sort of agree. 'perfection' is not the term I would use. 'completion'
is nearer IMHO.

        76. A relationship with the divine is more important to you
        than anything (or you try to live as if it were).

I try to live just like everyone else.

        77. Agree/Disagree: I am a neo-pagan.

probably.

        78. Cats know much more than we suspect.

definitely.
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