From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: RACIST
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 28 Sep 92 08:21:34 GMT

carasso@inference.com (C A R A S S O) writes (amazingly in a well
ordered, coherent and articulate (well, no, not bizarre, paricularly,
(unless one counts the very juxtaposition of such an article with
such an authorship bizarre (which certainly does seem reasonable on the
face of it)))):

>2) Telling a racial joke does not make one a racist.  It makes one a
>comedian.

this is quite possibly true. in fact, all humor is more or less
sublimated aggression. this does not mean that the joke itself 
is not an expression of racist intent, and hence in bad taste
(at the least (not that I have any objedction to bad taste per se)).

  People seem to have a hard time understanding this.  If the
>joke is said with vicousness, then maybe that is an indication that
>the teller is a racist, but maybe not.  You must ask the joke teller
>and ask him his vies, otherwise its slander and gossip and just wrong.

one may also take thought and examine the teller's motivations for making
such remarks. what is his audience? what is his purpose in telling this
joke? what is the reaction he hopes to elicit from this audience? what is
the reaction that he actually does elicit from this audience?

>3) People have asked me if I am a racist, and I have clearly and
>consistently said I am not.  I think it's very important to understand
>the terms of discussion foremost.  A racist means that a race's
>genetics predispose its individuals to failure.  The definition is
>important, because it allows me to say that the culture that American
>blacks are raised in is producing some really fucked up individuals,
>and not be a racist, and in fact it allows me to say something very
>true.

in this particular case I would be more inclined to attribute the
production of these individuals to anomie of their culture then to 
the culture itself. whether or not this is true, certainly the question
(and its answer) are more complex than this. one must also take into 
account whether one is and actually perceives that one has racist elements
in one's  belief system and/or worldview.

>        This is not solely a failure of black leadership, but clearly
>of the government's inaction.  Nowhere in Europe is the poverty
>difference between blacks and whites as great as it is in the US.

hell, nowhere in europe is the poverty difference between the richest and
the poorest as great as it is in the US. blacks, of course, exist on all
levels of both european and US societies.

>4) People have pointed out that arabs are not a race but that that
>makes me a bigot.  Well, I am not a bigot and I don't hate all arabs,
>certainly not.  But I am well within my rights to hate the governments
>and many aspects of the Moslem culture.  I doubt if you are aware that
>every Arab country, some 22 nations, are officially at WAR with
>Israel, the Jewish homeland.

egypt? morocco?

>                                 Talk.bizarre is not the place to talk
>about this, but I find it hard to like a people as a whole that is a
>War with Israel, that subjugates women, that does not allow Jews into
>their countries, 

come now, roger. do you seriously think that you and I would have any
problem getting into egypt, or morocco, or tunisia, or turkey, or
pakistan, or bangladesh, or any of a number of other muslim countries?
BTW, how many muslim countries have large jewish minorities? can you
name three? while the treatment of women in many of these countries is
shameful, it is no worse (and often better) than what goes on a number 
of nonmuslim countries (many black african nations, for example (arabs do
not regularly practice female genital mutilation)). conditions for women 
in much of europe (rural greece, southren italy, rural spain and portugal)
are as bad, in practice, as the conditions in many arab countries. were you
aware that the quranic laws were a great advance for women's rights 
(muhammed outlawed female infanticide, allowed women to own property in
their own names and allowed women to divorce). 

josh
From: keithg@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Keith Glasson)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 10:57:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Short Shameful Confession
Organization: work