From: nadeem@ethz.ch (Nadeem Malik)
Subject: Re: "MUHAMMAD NOT LAST-I" (QURANIC VERSES)
Followup-To: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
Reply-To: nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:20:16 GMT

Ahmed El-Habbash (ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie) wrote:
: In <1992Dec3.173741.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> 3040_3744@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:

: {staff, about using our logic and intellect when talking about religious
: issues, deleted.
: >Now I remember one very famous Hadith in which it is narrated that Holy prophet
: >(SAW) said that he was "Khatm-un-Nabeen" even before the birth of Adam (Peace
: >be upon him). 

: Using my logic, I would say that Allah knows, before creating Adam, that
: you will write what you have written now. Similarly, He knows that
: Muhammed (saw) will be Khatam of all Prophets before even creating any
: of the Prophets.

: >So then question comes that if Holy Prophet what "Khatam" before
: >the Adam's birth then how Adam and other 124,000 prophets came into this world.
: >This clearly indicate that the meaning of "Khatam" are not the last one but
: >there are some other meanings which sould be used. 

: As I said before, Khatam has several meanings, but all the meanings are
: derived from one root meaning which means
: finishing/ending/terminating/puttingt a seal. However, the meaninig of
: khatam in the context of that verse of Suraht Al-Ahzab, means the
: absolute last/end (of prophethood).

No it doesn't -- besides this is the topic of discussion, and you cannot impose
a meaning from the outset and then 'discover' that it means the same thing.
You either impose a meaning out of blind faith, such as your side, in which
case you should remove yourself from any further debate. But those who wish
to persue things in more logical and open-minded manner accept, logically,
many possible meanings and then deduce with honesty and taqwah and with
clear definitions and examples the real meaning. This is our approach.


In the above example, I have to say that I think the meaning of Khatam 
is niether the 'last' or the 'best', but what is introduced here is a
third usage, which is the concept of 'testification'. The root of khatam
comes from a word which connotes to 'impress' upon something, hence the
meaning 'seal' i.e. to 'impress' an insignia upon paper, for example. Such
methods were common especially in ancient times and it was the only mwthod
then of testifying to the authenticity of a paper issued by high authority.
This is why khatam also means 'ring', since kings etc often carried their
seal in the form of a signet ring. 

It is clear from the above hadith that the concept of time is absent in its
usage. This is the first important thing to note. The problem with interpreting
it as saying that God new he was going to the last anyway so he said it, is 
that it can equally well logically be that God new he was going to be the 
best so he said it. This does not clarify the menaing of khatam. However, 
applying the meaning 'authenticate' or 'testification' to the situation
we get:

(1) The Holy prophet (saw) is the authenticator of all prophets, i.e. he 
gives testimony to the truth of all prophets. This is fully in line with
general Islamic principle because Islam is the only religion to have stated
that 140 prophets have been sent to all peoples. Since this usage is
independant of time, it can be applied to the future as well.

(2) All true prophet bear testimony to the truth and authenticity of the
holy prophet (saw). This is in line with Islamic principles since we know
that the holy prophet (saw) was prophecied in Jewish and Christian shariat,
and by extension, all true religions must also have mentioned him. For the
future, a true prophet must bear testimony to the truth of the Holy prophet
(saw). 

(3) as a corollary to (2), we can off course say that the Holy prophet must
be the best and greatest prophet since only he has been spoken of in these
tems.

If you follow this logically, then you begin to understand why the comming
of a new prophet within the limits mentioned above does not go against the
'seal of prophets' concept. 


[delete]

: But we believe that He listens to every caller, and responds to his
: call, and also guides us, .., etc.

: >2) Secondly we are interfering with the freedom of God. We have no right to
: >make any decesion about what God should do and what He should not do. If God
: >decides to chose some one His messanger than who we are to say that no He can
: >not choose any one as his messanger. It is God who has to decide whether He
: >want to appoint some one his messanger or not. No humanbeing has any authoruty
: >over God. 

: Who are we to say the opposite of What Allah has said. We are not
: following theories, we are following a message from Allah.

This is what they all say. 'We follow what our forefather were following'.

[delete]

: >Hameed Mirza
: >     

: -- 
: Ahmed I. El-Habbash, 
: Department of Computer Science, Trinity College,
: Dublin 2, Ireland.
: Tel: office: +353-1-7021524

nadeem malik nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:18430 soc.culture.indian:41304