HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: richwing@leland.Stanford.EDU (Rich Wingerter)
Subject: Re: inventing a writing system?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 05:03:24 GMT

In article <1992Apr2.171953.4945@Csli.Stanford.EDU>, scobbie@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Jim Scobbie) writes:
|> 
|> Absolutely the worst thing about the writing system I am using at the moment
|> is that it provides 6 symbols people are comfortable using as vowel sound
|> representers aeiouy. If we could incorporate a few more from the ipa chart
|> like epsilon, small I, schwa then maybe life would be easier. 
|> Diacritics are needed in many writing systems to augment aeiouy. Wouldn't
|> a larger character set be better. We don't need to stick at 26 letters.

I agree, we need more vowel symbols.  However, I'd ask for something other than
a small 'I'.  This is already used in lowercase numbers for the numeral '1' in
a number of fonts, and in cursive it is hard to distinguish large and small
characters that have the same form.

|> Amidst all the crashingly dull argument out there on this topic I've
|> seen very little clarification of what the claims and counter claims
|> are. It seems to me that the main argument presented was that
|> 
|> a writing system ought to be phonemic rather than phonetic
|> a writing system ought to be morphphonemic (if that 'helps')
|> the resulting system of n 'letteremes' ought to have at least n actual
|> 	character shapes to represent it.
|> 
|> 1) is that a fair summary of the position
|> 2) if not, what's wrong with it?

Seems fair to me.  I would, however, not like the aesthetics or the readability
of the system to get lost in all of this.

In this regard, I would criticize the current roman letterforms for the
following ambiguities: {'1', 'l', 'I'}, {'O','0'}, {'2','Z'}, {'8','B'}
(already noted elsewhere), {'5','S'} (noted elsewhere) and {'1','7'}.  (People
who draw dashes through the 'Z' and the '7' may not feel quite this way.)
I'd also like to ask some pointed questions of whoever invented the '&', for
starting it on the right, &c.  :-)


--Rich Wingerter
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: pesetsk@athena.mit.edu (David M Pesetsky)
Subject: Re: Devanagari: Syllabary or Alphabet?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 16:17:48 GMT

In article <204835@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
>In article <1992Apr13.141158.11253@athena.mit.edu> pesetsk@athena.mit.edu (David M Pesetsky) writes:
>>
>>It's a very short step from inkless categories in orthography (a.k.a.
>>graphiteless graphemes) to phonetically null categories in syntax.
>>Caveat Cornu!
>
>Naive question: aren't some glottal stops realized exactly this way, as
>phonetic nulls?  Like the /t/ in a Cockney's "bottle"?  It's the stoppage
>of sound that's phonetically significant there...
>

Phonologically significant?

Anyway, this sounds right to me, though, not being a phonetician, I
can't swear that the glottal stop /?/ doesn't produce some transition or
other. [Bill Poser?]

As an undergraduate I was fourth author on a phonetics paper with Bruno
Repp, Alvin Liberman and Thomas Eccardt (sp?) concerning the fact that
taking a token of a word like /slIt/ and placing silence between the /s/
and the /l/ produces, when the silence reaches a critical length, the
perception of /splIt/, even with no other phonetic cues for /p/.  A real
phonetic instance of this sort of phenomenon.

-David Pesetsky
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Subject: Re: inventing a writing system?
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 17:31:13 GMT

In article <8920@scott.ed.ac.uk>, iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
<In article <1992Apr8.050324.9598@leland.Stanford.EDU> richwing@leland.Stanford.EDU (Rich Wingerter) writes:
<>In article <1992Apr2.171953.4945@Csli.Stanford.EDU>, scobbie@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Jim Scobbie) writes:
<>|> 
<>|> Absolutely the worst thing about the writing system I am using at
<>|> the moment is that it provides 6 symbols people are comfortable
<>|> using as vowel sound representers aeiouy.
<
<Yes, with "w" coming closest of the rest.  It is already a vowel
<letter in Welsh.

And English, too:  `cwm', for instance.  :-)  Actually, it sometimes functions
as a vowel-letter in words not borrowed from Welsh (like `cow' and `few').

<I like the IPA open "o" (reverse "c"), the
<Danish slashed "o", the Russian reversed "e" and the ligature "ae".

The `ae' and `oe' ligatures are already part of my English idiorthography
(is that a word?  :-)).

I still want the turned `m', though I can't find much use for it in English.
:-)

<Actually, one should criticise the current Arabic digits, for they
<are a relatively new addition to the Roman writing.

The digits we use are not *Arabic*, but *Hindu-Arabic*.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
ZANG4 HAN4 YI4 JIA1 / GONG4 JIAN4 ZHONG1HUA2!
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Written and Spoken Language(s)
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:44:06 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Apr10.153443.4406@javelin.sim.es.com> krogers@javelin.sim.es.com writes:
>djbpitt@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David J Birnbaum) writes:

>>Last week, in a discussion of Chinese trees and forests, a contributor
>>was mercilessly flamed for confusing orthography and morphology. Several
>>other contributors announced in no uncertain terms that speech is
>>primary and that writing is not a proper object for linguistic study.

>The obvious reason why spoken language is to be considered the chicken
>with writing the egg is to look at what humans do naturally vs. have
>to be formally instructed in.  Writing is definitely an invention to
>fit spoken language where as speaking is hardwired in the brain.

>Whether or not writing is a proper area of linguistic research even
>though it's not as fundamental as speech is another question.

Certainly speech is older.  But there are even theories on the origin
of writing which do not have the written expressions descended from
speech, but rather started out as an independent means.  Pictorial
writing frequently could be understood by speakers of totally different
languages.  It seems to me that Chinese is essentially in that class.
The "Arabic" numerals are read quite differently by different people,
but the communication is clear.

In various fields, scientists can communicate by using quite standard
symbolism.  Mathematics uses an essentially infinite set of pronouns,
which can even be restricted, and one can even have difficulties at
a lecture because the spoken expression of these, and of standard 
notation, is quite different from language to language.  A chemist
can write down a structure which is quite clear to another chemist,
even en if they might have difficulty introducing themselves. Greektch
typesetter could set this in type without understanding a word of it
orally.  

We have both--writing to express speech, and oral expressions of things
which were originally only written.  We do not have much use of gestures,
colors, etc., as yet, but these may become an important part of our
communication.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: rbradbur@hardy.u.washington.edu (Robert Bradbury)
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Control of cancer pain (was  Re: The Evolution of Death)
Summary: Drugs are not addictive if used in the control of pain
Keywords: cancer, pain, drugs, addiction
Date: 16 Apr 92 20:28:55 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

>Good point, and I can forgive Dr. Thomas his fuzzy understanding of
>evolution.  But wishful logic can be dangerous, and I would hate for
>doctors to depend on it for relieving pain.  I recently saw a newspaper
>article that stated that in the U.S., 80% of terminal cancer patients die
>in pain!  U.S. anti-drug laws, and doctors' reluctance to "addict" their

There seems to be alot of evidence that in stressful situations
one does not easily become "addicted".  Although many people used heroin
in the Vietnam war very few (relative to the number who tried it) became
addicted.  There was an article in Scientific American (if my memory
serves me) around a year ago discussing the reasons for this and making
a very strong case that there is *no* good reason for denying pain
medication to the terminally ill.  It even argued that these people
would be better off if they could administer their own medication "as
needed" to control the pain.

Robert Bradbury
Newsgroups: sci.bio
From: hurd@fraser.sfu.ca (Peter L. Hurd)
Subject: Re: Large Fungi
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1992 20:15:26 GMT

Isn't this in a recent Nature/ or Science?  Just gossip I overheard in the
photocopy room.
-P.

-- 
-- Pete Hurd, hurd@sfu.ca          |   My field season starts early April,
Behavioural Ecology Research Group |   I will be incommunicado except by
Dept.Biol.Sci., Simon Fraser Univ. |   snail mail (address to the left here)
Burnaby B.C. V5A 1S6 Canada        |   or phone (604)-428-3260 messages only.
From: sarima@tdatirv.UUCP (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Re: The Evolution of Death
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:34:25 GMT
Reply-To: sarima@tdatirv.UUCP (Stanley Friesen)
Organization: Teradata Corp., Irvine

In article <3529@rosie.NeXT.COM> jdoenias@next.com (Josh Doenias) writes:
|In Dr. Lewis Thomas's book "A Long Line of Cells", he claims that at the  
|time of death, the human body may release various hormones to produce a  
|state of euphoria which many people who have had "near-death" experiences  
|claim to have experienced.
|He also states that evolutionarily, this is a perfectly natural thing to  
|expect.  ...
|
|My question is this.
|It seems to me that this is completely counter-intuitive.  A gene (or an  
|allele) will be propagated via natural selection if it confers some sort  
|of evolutionary advantage for that gene.  These advantages boil down, at  
|some point, to the ability to leave more offspring, and thereby more  
|copies of that gene.
|Using this line of resoning, what possible advantage could there be to  
|evolving some sort of mechansim for coping with the death of an organism?

None at all, you are quite right.

Dr. Thomas has made the frequent error of confusing the technical term
'selective advantage' with the colloquial term 'advantage'.

|Does this make sense?

Yes.

You seem to have a very good intuitive grasp of evolutionary theory.


Now, if Dr. Thomas is right about the raw facts (that is the release of
hormones at death), the explanation is almost certainly one of serendipidity.
That is the death release is an unselected side-effect of some totally
different, selected-for, feature that expresses itself early enough to
effect reproductive success.


Note a subtlety here, some post-reproductive features *can* influence
reproductive success, *if* they are relevent to the survival of offspring.
Parental care is of course the prime example of this sort of thing.

But I do not see how moment-of-death responses can effect the survival
ability of offspring in any substantive way.
-- 
---------------
uunet!tdatirv!sarima				(Stanley Friesen)
From: 30stahlhut@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Career change/biology
Date: 8 Apr 92 10:57:08 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

I'm currently a graduate student in computer science at Western
Michigan University, but have a long-time interest in evolutionary
biology.  I'm seriously considering leaving my CS graduate program
to pursue a master's in biology here at WMU, and am going to be 
taking biology and anthropology courses (instead of CS) throughout
the spring and fall.

Is there anyone out there who is a graduate of the EEB program at
Michigan State?  I'm interested in learning more about it -- I've
already contacted a faculty member there in the Entomology department.
If I did eventually apply to the EEB (Ecology/Evolutionary Biology)
program at MSU, it would probably be through Entomology.  

I'm also trying to figure out what to do with it afterwards, although
a specific job is the last thing I feel I have to worry about at this
stage.  (I'd rather have fun than make lots of money -- and that's not
based on naivete, since I've been a computer professional for 7 years
and have had very little fun in the process.)  I think I may be especially
interested in natural history writing and documentary production.

Please respond by E-mail to 474stahlhut@gw.wmich.edu, not to the
address listed in my .sig.  If you have any personal or professional
encouragements/discouragements to offer, please share them with me!

Thanks!

-- 
Julie K. Stahlhut                        30stahlhut@gw.wmich.edu        

"The trouble with synchronized swimming is they don't stay UNDER long enough!"
				-- Anonymous (?)
From: wcalvin@hardy.u.washington.edu (William Calvin)
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Re: Aquatic Man
Date: 10 Apr 92 00:28:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Apr10.002852.19979
Organization: University of Washington

kvry@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Kevin Ryan) writes:


>	A few days ago, I saw the very end of a cable-TV special on
>the possibility that a significant part of human evolution at one time
>included some adaptations to life in the water.  It apparantly corresponded
>to whatever "window" in which there is no remaining fossil evidence, and
>that most of the theory was based on our present physiology.  

>	Is there an article or book that deals with an overview of this
>theory that is available?  I would like very much to find out how much
>of this is a "real" theory and how much was just "In Search Of" speculation.

>						-Richard D. LaReau-


Elaine Morgan's THE AQUATIC APE is the best known.  The most recent book is
THE AQUATIC APE: Fact or Fiction? Edited by M. Roede (Souvenir Press, London,
1991).  There's a chapter in my book THE RIVER THAT FLOWS UPHILL (Sierra
Club Books 1987).
    William H. Calvin   WCalvin@U.Washington.edu
From: n8946410@rowlf.cc.wwu.edu (Elizabeth Cameron Parish)
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Ultramafic soils & their critters
Summary: is there a soil microbiologist in the house?
Keywords: soil microbes info help
Date: 13 Apr 92 22:14:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Apr13.221448.28637
Organization: Western Washington University


	I'm searching for information on the soil microbial/fungal
communities of ultramafic (esp. serpentine-derived) soils.  And I'm
not having a whole lot of success.  Any information (references,
anecdotes, wise words) would be highly appreciated!

	Please post or send email to n8946410@henson.cc.wwu.edu .

	Thank you.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cameron Parish			snailmail: 914 Indian St.
Biology Undergraduate			   Bellingham, WA  98225
Western Wash. Univ.			   U.S.A
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky sci.bio:1780 sci.chem:1925 sci.physics:6805
From: mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson)
Newsgroups: sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.physics
Subject: Re: CALL FOR DISCUSSION: bionet.biology.used-equipment
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 20:38:37 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Apr10.215720.29181@cco.caltech.edu>
  <1992Apr11.122634.3449@news.miami.edu>

Why not simply sci.used-equipment.  I can't imagine that the amount of
used equipment is so large that a single newsgroup can't accommodate
it all.  I'd like to see books (except textbooks) included, perhaps
call it sci.secondhand
Newsgroups: sci.bio
From: <acker>@me.utoronto.ca
Subject: aquatic ape
Organization: University of Toronto, Department of Mechanical Engineering
Distribution: sci
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:11:01 GMT


summary:  I read it a few years ago and found it interesting.
          While it is a fringe idea, it does point out the
          inadequacies in current concepts.  It is based on 
          the homoplasy in certain morphological characters,
          which most people would not attibute to an aquatic
          evolutionary phase for Homo.
         
J.D. Ackerman
acker@me.utoronto.ca 

Newsgroups: sci.bio
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Neuroscience Oddity
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 18:24:47 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Apr8.160816.23151@cbfsb.cb.att.com> djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton) writes:

>I also recall reading that pupils dilate in response to sexual stimulas.
>This may have something to do with the past practice of using eyedrops
>(belladona?) to dilate one's pupils in order to appear more attractive.

And also dim lighting in "romantic" restaurants.

Larry Niven used telepathically induced pupil dilation/contraction as a 
plot device in his novel "A Gift From Earth".
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Re: Aquatic Man
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:53:23 EST
Organization: Wright State University 

In article <13APR199210541524@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov>, xrhah@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Herbert A. Huston) writes:
> In article <1992Apr9.201151.2111@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, kvry@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Kevin Ryan) writes...
>> 
>>	A few days ago, I saw the very end of a cable-TV special on
>>the possibility that a significant part of human evolution at one time
>>included some adaptations to life in the water.  It apparantly corresponded
>>to whatever "window" in which there is no remaining fossil evidence, and
>>that most of the theory was based on our present physiology.  
> 
> The program was _Water Babies_, and it was shown on The Discovery 
> Channel.  It was a one-hour presentation of Sir Alister Hardy's theory
> and was filmed the year before his death.  Others who were interviewed
> included Desmond Morris, Elaine Morgan, and David Pilbeam.  Besides 
> getting to see and hear Sir Alister, the high point for me was 
> watching those babies floating and swimming.
> 
> -- Herb Huston

As the mother of a 'water baby' who started swimming lessons at eight months,
I'm sorry I missed the show.  One of the few drawbacks of living in the
country is... no cable TV.  BTW, my water baby is now 16, 5'11, size 12 (!)
shoes, swims 500 yards several days a week, and is completing his life
guard training in the next month.  
I've always thought Hardy's theory very interesting.  I do realize that
there are many critics of it, but it is feasible as far as I am concerned.

Sue
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: mushrooms
From: P.J.Lockhart@massey.ac.nz (P.J. Lockhart)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 01:59:08 GMT
Organization: Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand
Keywords: mushrooms
X-Reader: NETNEWS/PC Version 2c


Re fungi

Someone recently asked me about growing mushrooms which I know nothing
(particularly exotic species..whatever they are). Does anyone have any
information on this ..I guess my friend is interested in small scale
commercial production. Help!
From: alanm@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Alan McGowen)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 16:20:26 GMT
Subject: Hybridization of Bird Species
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA
Newsgroups: sci.bio

The following article appeared in sci.environment and in talk.origins. Since
in past months there have been articles in sci.bio on hybridization, 
reproductive isolating mechanisms, and the species concept, I thought it 
would be interesting to see what comments posters in sci.bio might have.

Alan McGowen

      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


   In Science Vol. 256 10 April 1992 there is an article,

                   "Hybridization of Bird Species"

   Which had some matters of interest to both talk.origins and sci.environment.
_please_ edit your newsgroups line when replying, as appropriate.  The article
is an easy read with gobs of references.  The particular point that I thought
interesting was that the authors establish a lower bound of approximately 10%
on hybridization of wild bird spiecies.

   In other words, at least 9.42% of all wild bird spiecies breed outside their
spiecies and create hybrids, some of which a fertile.  I find this sort of
surprising.  The notion of spiecies for birds is more sociological and less
genetic than I had thought.


   talk.origins:  this should make selection and hence evolution of bird
proceede much more quickly.  Chris Colby: any comment?


   sci.environment: either birds have less genetic diversity than we thought 
or their diversity is more widespread (and hence more easilly conserved).  In
any case it strikes me that this implies birds are more environmentally robust
than we might suppose when reasoning by analogy from other vertibrates.

   The article mentions that hybridization is not observed as much in tropical
birds but opines that this is because they are not observed as much.  Definite
need here for DNA probe relatedness studies.

Dan
Danwell@IASTATE.EDU
Newsgroups: sci.bio
From: chh9@quads.uchicago.edu (Conrad Halton Halling)
Subject: Re: Large fungi
Reply-To: chh9@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:20:26 GMT

The article is:

Smith, M. L., J. N. Bruhn, and J. B. Anderson.  1992.  The fungus _Armillaria
     bulbosa_ is among the largest and oldest living organisms.  Nature
     356:428-431.

This is the April 2 issue of Nature (which arrived today).

See the accompanying article in the News and Views section by Clive Brasier
(p. 382) for arguments against this fungus's being the largest organism
in the world.  The simplest argument against this is that there is no
way to tell whether the "single organism" is not fragmented into several
independent clones.


-- 
Conrad Halling
c-halling@uchicago.edu
From: djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton)
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Re: Yet Another Neuroscience Oddity
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:08:16 GMT
Organization: AT&T

I recall reading some years ago that, in some countries, merchants of
oriental carpets watch customers pupils.  Wider pupils indicate interest.
I also recall reading that pupils dilate in response to sexual stimulas.
This may have something to do with the past practice of using eyedrops
(belladona?) to dilate one's pupils in order to appear more attractive.

Dave Daulton