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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:40:36 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Janet, this is Jon Lodeesen.  Sorry I often forget to sign off.  The system
I use generates the to, from and subject lines when I am communicating off
Internet which is what I do most of the time.  Perhaps my turgid style will
eventually cause you to recognize my presence should I forget again.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:04:26 -0500
From:         "Douglass St. Christian" <stchri@MCMAIL.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Democracy or no

I think Zahir's requirement that democracy obligates equal opportunity to
be heard is a valuable one.

Can anyone become one of Jon's much vaunted representatives?? Not likely.

Where election is bought with airtime and all the other trappings of mass
electioneering, the possibility of real representation is negated.

Totally negated.

Germaine Greer once commented that 'Americans need to beleive they live in
a democracy, otherwise they would not be able to get out of  bed in the
morning...."

Dougl....
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 10:11:54 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

I appreciate very much Douglas St. Christian's introduction of a specific
instance which he presented clearly and which raises issues on which
reasonable disagreement seems highly likely.  I will probably sound
ambivalent on this not because I am in fact uncomfortable with the side I
take but because I truly believe that this is a painful compromise for a
democracy.  I would much rather hear others' views, but will put mine out
as a contribution.  The easiest thing to say is that I agree with
Douglass (sorry about the bad spelling first time) provided there are no
additional details of which I am unaware.  I want judges to stick very
closely to the law and not see themselves as alternate sources of conscience
reflecting a public will or moral value which has been ignored by elected
representatives.  I want them instead to provide for continuity so that our
responses to a series of problems do not become in a body of enforceable law
that jumble of seeming contradictions one finds when leafing through the
legislation passed over the generations.  In that sense I do see them as the
guarantors of the viability of a system within which a democracy can seek to
perfect itself.  The ambivalent element is that I simply do not like to see
the will of the people, whether I agree with it or not, subverted by someone
because he is considered wiser.  More than the other two branches, the
judiciary, while of necessity furthest from the public's direct influence, is
most dependent for its effectiveness on the public's acceptance of the
institution.  The problem arises for me, really, only when the conflict rises
to the level of the old signs we used to see throughout the South thirty years
ago, "Impeach Earl Warren".  When we reach that point, I tend to find both
sides of the argument persuasive and it is time to pray.  But as long as
the courts are recognized as an instrument of democracy, I feel thankful that
we can have recourse to them.
  And, again, thanks, Douglass.  I will be far more interesting in reading
others' reactions to your proposition than I was in the last imbroglio.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:58:41 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Media/communicatioons

Jon, regarding your note to Phil....there IS a pattern Jon.....and its
usually always somewhat racist, and extremely protective of those in
power.....in cities, its city hall, on the majors, its the current
administration and the corporations.....

There is a ton of stuff available in reports of the RTC (the trust that is
investigating S&L's) of Lloyd Bentsen and his roles as well as the role
of the new Chief of Staff of the new president.....the right and left media
prints it, its ignored by the major media....

Even in cities, its the same.... I attended a lecture by Spike Lee who
accepted a last minute invitation by the students at the Univ. of
Missouri campus in St. Louis.... Spike stated early that the video
cameras be on only for the first 5 minutes and then they were to be
turned off....but one could record his talk.... Well, after 5 minutes
he asked that the cameras (local news & TV) be turned off...they argued
briefly that it was a public campus and they had a right and he said that
lots of people including Madonna and various performers also ban cameras
and video when they do their show... a very brief melee occured and the
cameras were turned off.  Spike spoke for some time and then fielded
questions for about 2 hours.... He was very very interesting and he had
a lot to say about racism and prejudice  in the entertainment industry..

That evening on local TV and the next day in the local one and only
major paper, all we got was the melee and the arguments....Not one word
about his comments or his speech was mentioned, not one word about how
Spike Lee saw racism in the movie industry and the entertainment world...

By the way, the reporters and the cameraman stayed for most of the show
with the cameras off and even recorded the speech......  Excerpts were
printed in only one small leftist magazine....

Jon, its difficult if not impossible to prove that the media or democracy
has failed by court room evidence.... but if we judge by the results, they
have failed rather miserably....

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 14:45:10 -0400
From:         MISIMC91@SNYONEVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Time to introduce yourself!

hi Nora , I guess I didn't realize where this was going . I am in New York State
I hope to become a speech therapist for small children with disorders. As for th
   e theater part of my major , Its alot of fun to do. I'm intrested in other cu
   ltures
because I come from three different backrounds, French Italian and Polish. I am
   currently taking a course in Cross Culture communications . Thats why I'm on
   this email stuff.
My teacher has placed the whole class on this and its fun. We are planning to
take a trip to Canada for five days to see what it is like to live there. We wil
   l be living with college students in the major cities in Canada and in April
   they
will come to New York and stay with us for five days. So tell me about yourself.
   see Mark Charles.
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:05:10 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

I believe, douglass, that the last time we faced precisely this issue you said
that in your opinion America could not be a democracy since it was a representa-
tive government and that could not be a democracy.  When I cited every
dictionary at hand in my study, all of them indicating that democracy is
defined to include representative government, you replied that there was no
point in using dictionary definitions, that you were considering something
else.  I can't remember whether it was the history, philosophy, or sociology
of the concept, but in any case, you dismissed discussion of the performance
of the institutions as evidence of democracy since you rejected reference to
it as democracy.  Were we now to enter into a discussion of achievement as
demonstration of functioning, and you were in media res to revert to a
redefinition, I cannot imagine that the discussion would be of any use to
anyone.  A discussion of whether or not a country with democratic institutions
but in which there is some crucial lack of democratic attitudes can build
an increasingly democratic society offers potential room for inspection of
the performance and shortcomings of our own as would any other similar
formulation in whidh one of the three parts is qualified.  But I'm not really
up to having to go back to square one in order to identify areas of obvious
agreement or disagreement before being able to work through the causes for
the relationship between the opinions.  I'm sorry, and thank you for the
invitation.  I thought your proposal was going to offer a good opportunity.
And if you are not the person who argued about what democracy is not or if I
have misquoted you, sorry about that too.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 11:40:41 -0600
From:         Thomas Thole <TTHOLE@TINY.COMPUTING.CSBSJU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Time to introduce yourself!

Folks,
I'm Tom Thole at St. John's University, Collegeville, Minnesota.  I teach
sociology parttime and work in international education parttime.  My latter
job involves advising foreign students, doing some overseas travel occasionally
recruiting students and doing "development" work for the university by
contacting alumns overseas for a bit of money.  I've been doing this kind of
work for more than 30 years, and at 60 years of age I find that having an
intercultural and international perspective is more important every year and
more exciting every year.
Tom Thole
TTHOLE@CSBSJU.EDU
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:21:00 -0800
From:         ANNA VONDIELINGEN <AVONDEIL@BESTLA.CALSTATELA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Phil, you sound like an intellect. I'm white, a nurse, and sometimes a bit
like "Pollyanna", but, if we all would take better care of our children, teach
them to love and be loved; if we all would look towards our spiritual selves,
whether God, Budda, or Human Potential, then the coloration of the world would
not be quite as important.  After all, I do believe that we are a part of each-








not be quite as important.  After all, I do believe that we are a part of each-







other.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:05:05 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: President Clinton

Hold it Matt... You are going way too fast....

Notive that recently, even the white males being elected are different.....not
many are overwieight, doubt if any has a beard, no moustaches either...
no smokers or single men either.......

The white female is ahead of the black male or any other in the race to
the presidency.... most likely she will be average in weight and height,
clearly heterosexual, married with children, no glasses or smoker either..

Muslims or jews are way out of the picture at this time.....

When TV, capitalism and an uninformed public making instinctive decisions
come together, this is a natural result..... and some call it democracy
and others that this is desirable!!!!!

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:35:39 -0800
From:         CAROLYN DAWNELE KELLER <CKELLER@BESTLA.CALSTATELA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Inauguration prayer

I think it's sad that both of you have missed the point as to why Billy
Graham was there.  He is a well known religous figure that is Highly re-
garded.  I am sorry that We as Christians stepped on the feet of the atheists.
You're not the only people in this world.  I believe in God the FAther and
am excited to see Billy pray for our nation.  Only the Creator of the earth
can keep it going.
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 10:04:46 -0800
From:         WALTER LOVATO <WLOVATO@BESTLA.CALSTATELA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Media/communicatioons

My name is Walter, I agree with you because I had experience with you are saying
  . HOWEVER  I think that We must keep trying until we get WHAT WE WANT..
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:25:40 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Janet,

There IS a difference between expressing ones opinions and the
reasons behind the formation of those opinions and CLAIMS where
there is evidence or proof.....  This is not a class or a courtroom...

I recently made two points.....one that I do not think that what we
have is a democracy..a gov't of the people, for the people, by the
people...and I gave my reasons for that opinion.  Instead of trying to
poke holes or demand proof, perhaps those who disagree should indicate
why they think its a democracy.......  my second point was that the major
media, by becoming part of a big corporation (as opposed to being purely
in the business of journalism) had become ineffective and in the competition
for ratings, circulation, dollars and so on had been compromised and no
longer capable of being a "Watch dog" or doing investigative journalism...
Again, if people disagree with that opinion, that's fine and if you or
others feel that the media is unbiased and informative, then cite
examples....for your reasons to disagree...

This is a medium for expressing opinions and debating, not a courtroom..
I may not be able to provide "warrants" to back my opinions but I
don't believe you can provide the "Warrants" to indicate that ours is
a functional democracy and that the means of information used by
Americans in general are informative and adequate...

zahir
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:44:15 PDT
From:         Roseann_E_Caballero_at_JPL-B190@JPLPOST.JPL.NASA.GOV
Subject:      Re[2]: Time to introduce yourself!

  HI ALL!  I HAVE NO IDEA WHO IS READING THIS, SO, THIS IS GOING TO BE KINDA
  GENERAL.  I JUST JOINED THIS LIST SERVE AND FIND IT REALLY NEAT.  I HAVE USED
  THESE KIND OF MAIL SYSTEMS BEFORE, BUT I THINK THEY ARE ALL PRETTY
  FACINATING.

  IT'S SO FACINATING KNOWING YOU CAN TALK TO ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE FROM ALL
  DIFFERENT PLACES.

  ANYWAYS, LET'S SEE.....IF YOU HAVEN'T FIGURED IT OUT ALREADY, MY NAME IS
  ROSEANN AND I LIVE IN TEMPLE CITY, CALIFORNIA.  I AM CURRENTLY ATTENDING
  CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, LOS ANGELES, AND MY MAJOR IS CRIMINAL JUSTICE.
  I LOVE COMPUTERS....I THINK THEY ARE ALOT OF FUN.  ALTHOUGH I'M NOT SO INTO
  THEM I AM A NERD!    IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO REPLY, PLEASE DO...I LOVE MAIL....

  TALK TO YOU ALL LATER!!!

  ROSEANN
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:16:01 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Janet, I rather like your approach and see more prospect from it than from
mine.  I hope that Zahir realizes how fortunate he is in having you give your
time to helping him present his views in a way which makes it possible for
others to agree, disagree, learn, instruct, etc.  He asks for interactive
dialog and then virtually precludes it.  If he has the inclination to take you
seriously, he can only benefit--as can the rest of us as we listen in.  I
think I proposed the possibility of picking an issue and then seeing whether
there is really a way that it can be excluded from the main-stream media.
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 09:05:03 EST
From:         Gretchen Schirmer <IQZK100@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: QUEER PLANET OREGON PRESS RELEASE (fwd)
              28 Jan 1993 08:29:04 -0500 from <stchri@MCMAIL.CIS .MCMASTER.CA>

Dougl -- Thanks for the news release from Queer Planet.  I really like the way
it was written.  Especially the part on sexual harassment of women and its
connection to lesbian baiting.

Gretchen Schirmer
IUPUI
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 09:00:40 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Inauguration prayer

I could use some help from Joyce on the choice of generics which imply
exclusion of one sex.  My first premise is that I try to call people whatever
they call themselves unless all the other members of that group as recognized
by both of us reject that name.  So, until outvoted, you are whatever you
tell me you are.  Like many males of my generation, I felt comfortable with
the idea that when I said "a person who thinks he is certain he is right
may find his comeupance when...", I was refering to a person and that the
following "he" was short for "he or she".  As I increasingly encountered
"they" I found the grammar jarring and it caused me trouble.  I tended to
retreat to the British inversions which I had been taught a very long time
ago, "one who expects to be right is likely to encounter a comeupance when..."
but that is far too stilted for today.
  In practice I find very little objection to my occasional lapses. Among
those people whom I am most likely to encounter, my good intentions are
seemingly enough.  But is that the general case?  Is this still a burning
issue?  Am I offending someone unnecessarily (I'm always happy to offend
when it is necessary)?  It would help me to hear the views of those who
disagree on the details of this issue, assuming that the basic decision has
already been taken, the assumption being that "he" unless otherwise clearly
identified by the context of the sentence, refers to a male and excludes all
females.  Or is even that not right?
  With justice for all, and malice to as few as possible.
Jon
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:05:03 -0700
From:         "Janet C. Constantinides" <CONSTANT@CORRAL.UWYO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

I heartily second Jon's moving statement.

Janet
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:07:00 -0500
From:         "Douglass St. Christian" <stchri@MCMAIL.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

Jon:

Let's try a different approach then. What, for you, are the minimum
requirements for defining the US as a democracy?

It is as likely that we are talking at cross purposes, comparing apples
and oranges and all those other communication flaws.

So let's try from a different starting point.

dougl....apparently.....

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
douglass p. st.christian  << stchri@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca >>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 09:03:04 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Our Christian nation

Who says Muslims "worship a different God"?  My God doesn't hear the prayers
of Muslims?  Does your God hear my God's prayers but not someone else's?  I
thought we'd gotten past that.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:44:06 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Jon,

Thanks for teaching me  on the fine art of communicating and argumentation...

Regarding taking an issue and reporting it and why the major media has
not picked it up.....here goes one of many I can come up with.....

Recently Bush resumed attacks on Iraq.... It was reported in Europe and
several other countries that many countries had dropped out of the
original coalition that attacked Iraq.... and many that opposed these new
attacks.......  Not one of those countries spokesperson were invited
to talk about why they had withdrawn support or the discussions and
disagreements reported in any detail.....

How about an examination of the UN and whether the original countries
with veto power, Britain, France etc still belong in the 5 countries
with such power...and whether its a fair system, whether its perceived as
such in the rest of the world.... Something that Time, Newsweek et all. can
examine.......

How about commenting on Clinton's nominations and their relevance to th
change he is talking about? seems to be they are all attorneys from
big business and washington... any real outsiders..

zahir
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