HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: uddeborg@sisu.se (Goeran Uddeborg)
Subject: Re: Swedish Heraldry
Organization: Swedish Institute of Systems Development
Distribution: rec.heraldry
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:13:17 GMT

In article <DANDERSO.92Sep10121107@dante.nmsu.edu> danderso@nmsu.edu (David Anderson) writes:
>I am studying my family history and would like to know whether my
>branch of the Andersson family (from the region near Varmland) was
>armigerious or not.  How would I find out since once I go farther back
>than the early 1700s the surname of my family changes with each
>generation?   Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

You could always ask

	Riddarhuset
	Box 2022
	103 11 Stockholm
	Sweden

"Riddarhuset" would if translated, it's a name really, be something
like "House of Knights".  They have some kind of genealogy department,
keeping track of the noble families in Sweden.

Don't put to much hope in it though.  In case you don't already know,
Anderson is one of the most common names in Sweden, and the nobility
tend to have more, ah, interesting, names.
From: betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: marshalling (was Re: partitioned achievements)
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:39:15 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep14.212913.37219@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>
>Inescutcheons of pretense: An escutcheon (shield-shape) bearing one device
>is placed at the center of the other.  This was common only among the
>royalty, and usually showed alliances by marriage.  The British royal arms
>in the 19th century show examples of pretense.

In the modern English period, inescutcheons of pretense are quite
common.   When an armigerous man marries a heraldic heiress whose
father has died, the standard way for  him to display her arms is in
an inescutcheon of pretense.  His sons (or daughters, if he has only
daughters) then quarter the mother's arms with the father's arms, and
transmit the quartered arms to their descendants. 

Let me give a simple example.  Suppose that Sam Smith bears Or, a bend
Sable (a black diagonal stripe on a gold field).  John Jones bears
Sable, a bend Or.  (Gold stripe, black field).  Sam has only
three daughters; call the second Sarah.  John has one son, James.

When James marries Sarah in Sam's lifetime, he "impales" her arms;
the left half of the shield shows Sable, a bend Or; the right half,
Or, a bend Sable. When Sam dies, James reverts to his own paternal
arms, with Sarah's arms in a miniature shield centered on his 
own shield.  When James in his turn dies, his son Jeremiah
bears Quarterly, first and fourth:  Sable,a bend Or; second and third:
Or, a bend Sable.  (That is, the top left and bottom right quarters
of the shield show the Jones arms; the top right and bottom left
quarters show the Smith arms.)  Apologies if I've punctuated
incorrectly.

Whew!  Incidentally, the men who marry Sarah's sisters also
obtain the right to quarter the Smith arms, so that after Sarah's
generation, the Smith quarterings may be passed down in several
different lineages.  


To quote *The Oxford Guide to Heraldry* (a great book; I'll post
a review soon), p. 123:  "Fifteen of the twenty escutcheons of
pretence borne by Knights of the Garter and referred to by Ashmole
[Windsor Herald,  in a publication of 1672] were arms of wives."
This is a custom of reasonable antiquity in England.
The Oxford Guide also describes the rules for quartering in exhaustive
detail.
       
-- 
Betsy Hanes Perry   (note P in userid)     betsyp@apollo.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Company
"It seems to us that the readers who want fiction to be like life are
considerably outnumbered by those who would like life to be like fiction."
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Question about a charge
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 06:19:39 GMT

In article <betel.716261378@camelot> betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford) writes:
>
>	How common is a squirrel as an heraldic charge? In what poses
>would it be sufficiently different from other charges?

It is used at least in the Finnish municipal heraldry. For example, the arms of
town of Kauniainen (the neighborring town of Espoo), are

Azure, a squirrel couchant Or, armed and langued Gules, holding a fir cone Or,
en chief three roses in fess Or

(The arms of my hometown, Espoo, are Azure, a horseshoe crowned, Or)

Squirrel of Kauniainen has cone-shaped muzzle, tassled ears, a pot-belly and
a tail about the size of its body. I would say a huge tail and tassled ears
would be sufficient.

  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: habura@lib107.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Possible FAQ: Tinctures
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:07:10 GMT

The other Andrea (Gansey-Ortiz) asks about blazons using planets and jewels for
the tinctures.

I was able to pick up some examples in, of all places, the OED. One I can 
remember is "Pearl, two spurs in pale Rubye" (i.e., "Argent, two spurs in pale
gules".) Dates are given for all OED citations, of course, and this one was
(if memory serves) 15th century. Try looking up heraldic terms and the jewel/
planet names and reading through the entries. I haven't done a thorough 
study on these; I was doing an etymology project at the time. However, such
blazons do indeed exist.

Andrea Habura

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald)
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Organization: Bradley University
Date:  9 Sep 92 16:17:20 GMT


I've seen several different crests for the MacDonald clan in Scottland
(mostly the cheap mail-order things which I strongly suspect are pure
sham), and was wondering if anyone knows what the true crest is.

The two that I recall are a brown (perhaps a golden?) eagle
superimposed over a quartered shield and a three-masted ship under
full sail.  I don't recall maxims under either of them.

Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?

--
shralp@camelot.bradley.edu                      Jamie McDonald  <><

"Dreams and dedication are a powerful combination." - Will Longgood
From: gadosy1@vax2.concordia.ca (ME, WHO ELSE?)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Any Domestic Cats in crests?
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:54:00 GMT
Organization: Concordia University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <crystal.716227601@glia>, crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes...
> 
>Odd question, I know...but I am a collector of domestic cat items, and it
>was suggested to me that there may be some in crests.  (Not tigers or lions
>rampant and sinister, but 'lil ol' home-loving pussy cats)  
> 
>Is there such a beast in heraldry?

Yes there is.  There are two coats of arms that I know of that have domestic
cats.

1.	David M. Stewart, Esq.

	CREST:	a demi-Himalayan Cat rampant, holding in tis dexter forepaw a
		tobacco leaf proper.

	The "Himalayan Cat" is a special interest of Mr. Stewart's and we
	understand that there are at least three of them in his household.

2.	The Hon. Mr. Justice A. Alex Cattahach

	CREST:	a demi-cat-a-mountain salient proper sustaining with his
		forepaws a balance-scale Or.

	The cat is suggestive of Mr. Cattanach's office of Judge.

These were both taken from "Heraldry in Canada", Vol. VII, No. I, March 1973


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|\/\/\/|
|      |  "I want to centrifuge a kitten!!" - Gadosy1@Vax2.Concordia.CA
|      |
| (o)(o)  "Kittens grow up to be fuzzy Satanic fur balls" - A Very Smart Person
C      _)
| '____|
|   /     "No bar too far, no beer too dear" - Timothy A. Gadosy, Esq.
|  |
|  |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal)
Subject: Any Domestic Cats in crests?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:06:41 GMT


Odd question, I know...but I am a collector of domestic cat items, and it
was suggested to me that there may be some in crests.  (Not tigers or lions
rampant and sinister, but 'lil ol' home-loving pussy cats)  

Is there such a beast in heraldry?

Thank you...
Crystal
  ;>


Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Possible FAQ: Tinctures
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:20:38 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.162237.11938@news.arc.nasa.gov> keradwc@news.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Connery) writes:

>>ORANGE (orange), FS32473

>I'd make the caveat for any such FAQ that it include known exceptions (Orange?
>where /when is/was it used, even as a lesser color?

Don't the arms of the House of Oranje-Nassau use orange?

Aryk
From: batman@batcave.EBay.Sun.COM (The Reverend Doctor Karl Elvis MacRae)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Highlander Magazine (Was M(a)cDonald crest)
Date: 9 Sep 1992 23:24:59 GMT
Organization: Tattooed Love Boys
Distribution: world
Reply-To: batman@batcave.EBay.Sun.COM (The Reverend Doctor Karl Elvis MacRae)
NNTP-Posting-Host: batcave.ebay.sun.com


	Ok, from the archives; the address for Highlander Magazine...


	
>The HIGHLANDER
>P.O. Box 397	(202 S. Cook St. #214)
>Barrington, IL 60011


			-Karl



  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  Karl Elvis MacRae batman@batcave.Ebay.sun.com 408-276-3110  |Steed: Dead...
  Sun Microsystems, Milpitas, CA |  I DON'T SPEAK FOR SUN...  |DoD#1999
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	      "Come and see the Violence inherent in the System!
		Help, Help, I'm being Repressed!"
  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Computerized Family Crests
Reply-To: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:56:19 GMT

In article <BRUCE.92Sep10112445@suprenum.supr.scm.liv.ac.uk>,
bruce@supr.scm.liv.ac.uk (Bruce Stephens) writes:
> In England it is even illegal to bear false arms, so watch out!
> 
> A better thing to do, if you have the money, is to get your own design
> granted to you by the College of Arms.  As far as I remember it only
> costs of the order of #1000, but then you can legally use it, and pass
> it on to your descendants.  (I don't have the details, so please don't
> ask me for them!  Consult your local library.)

  The cost was recently quoted as #1650.  More importantly, isn't it
necessary to have been granted nobility in order to register arms in
England?  Or can anyone go and get a coat of arms if they have the money?

Alan Terlep				        "Please don't shoot us--
Oakland University, Rochester, MI	         we're trying to help."
atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		     --Real public service announcement
Rushing in where angels fear to tread.		    for the Serbian Red Cross
	

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Don Wiggins)
Subject: Re: Heraldry/geneology
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:50:39 GMT

kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley) writes:

>Since it occurs to me that there's a genealogy tie in to heraldry,
>and there's no genealogy group....
>Does anyone know if the LDS church, or any other organization, has any
>public access computer systems that offer access to their genealogy
>databases?
>Thanks.
>-- 
>Kaleb Keithley                          kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov

First of all, there certainly is a genealogy group.  Try soc.roots.

Secondly, most LDS family history centers, or whatever they call the
libraries normally located at or near each church, have the complete
International Genealogical Index (IGI) file on both microfiche and very
often on CD ROM.  I don't want to tie up this group with an explanation
of the IGI, but if you have any specific questions I'll try to help.
Your best bet would be to contact the local LDS church.  They always
welcome outsiders in their facilities, and I don't know of a single
case where anyone has ever been approached to discuss theological
matters while working there.

 ========================================================================
 |                                    |            _Researching_        |
 |Don Wiggins                         |       WIGGINS, STALEY, HALL,    |
 |email:  wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu |       BIRKHIMER, MCINTIRE,      |
 |                                    |       PARK(E), CHANCE, MUNRO....|
 ========================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Subject: bearing arms in America
Reply-To: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:02:33 GMT

Having just perused the postings and in particular the discussion 
of the sale of so called "family crests" in America, I was reminded
of a question I have had recently regarding heraldry.

Does the Constitution allow all United States citizens to be
armigerous when it guarentees a person's "right to bear arms?"

Just curious what others think.
--
----
Charles F. Fitzgerald | "Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow,
Iowa State University | Creeps in this petty pace, from Day to Day, 
cffitzge@iastate.edu  | To the last syllable of Recorded Time...."
                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Highlander Magazine (Was M(a)cDonald crest)
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:00:13 GMT

Have any of you searching for Scots "crests" and tartans read
Sharyn McCrumb's books?  In particular, "Paying the Piper"?
It may dampen your ardor but that's not necessarily bad.

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "There's no kill like a guns kill." LCDR "Hoser" Satrapa, gunnery instructor
                       "A kill is a kill."  Anonymous
From: bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: What is purpose of this group?
Keywords: charter, purpose
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:25 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Noble Heralds!

There are many loud voices amoung the SCA heralds who insist that this
news group is not the place to discuss SCA heraldry.  In response to
this claim, I wish to pose several arguements.

1. The SCA College of Arms (if you include all of the untitled pursuivants
   and coronets in the Laural Kingdoms) is quite probably the largest
   college of arms in the world.

2. I have seen a number of news groups start up over the last several
   months.  If this group is to actually engage in the discussion of
   heraldry research (either SCA or mundane) it is the responsibility
   of the SCA heralds to generate that discussion.  Why do I say this?
   Well, when the classics newsgroup started up it was immediately
   flooded with postings by academics attempting to establish
   conventions for writing Greek and Sanskrit.  rec.food.historic was
   not quite as decisive but, within a day or two of the newsgroup 
   being established it was flooded with recepies by notibles such as
   Duke Carriadoc of the Bow.  The Bonsai group however has been
   suffering a fate similar to this one.  Some of the original postings
   were things like:  "What is bonsai?" asked by someone who did not
   know.  And, jokes based on the similarity in sound between "bonsai"
   (pot life) and "banzai" (10,000 years).  Even today, I received 
   several mail messages from the old SCA heraldry list on the mundane
   matriculation of British arms.

What is the moral to this?  It is I think that SCA peole can when they
decide to be deferential be excessively so.  Do I think that the rules
for submission (RFS) should be discussed ad-nausium here?  Well, no I
do not.  In fact, I think that sections VII and VIII should be
replaced by some variant on the proposed "Documented Heraldry" rule.
(I did send the rule of to the responsible officer of the CoA.  This
rule is largely based on proposals by Master Arval and a suggestion
made by another gentle to add the phrase "within the scope of the SCA"
to the rule.)  If Sections VII and VIII were replaced, then all of the
style based discussions would become historic and research discussions
and not artificial rule nit-picking.  However, if that were done, then
what would remain would be discussions of period style qua style based
hopefully on research and discussions of conflict.  And how is it
inappropriate to discuss these in this group?  Finally, please consider
that the old mailing list is far from confidential.  Anyone who finds
out about the list (and I am told that there are even electronic ways
to do so) can subscribe to the thing.

Thus, noble heralds of the SCA, I beseach you to discuss heraldry here
even if it is SCA heraldry.  It will not be that evil to do so.  And,
it will (I assure you) encourage the discussion of non-SCA heraldry
as well.

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Totally Ignorant

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:18:29 GMT

>
>And I think the U.S. Constitution would prohibit it anyway: we're a tyrant-
>hating republic, remember?
>
You betcha! There's an article in the U.S. constitution that prohibits
ennobling people. Presumably, if read very broadly, this includes the
granting of arms. (Yeah, I know that being armigerous isn't the same
thing as being noble. But, the concept of some hereditary title or honor
being conferred definately is against the spirit of article.) 

Have Fun, 

   Tom \|/ 
        o

   ?

>>
>>P.P.S.  Technically, only the eldest surviving son of the  first son
>>of the first son... has the right to bear the family coat of arms as
>>is;  everybody else adds little dingies called "marks of cadence" to
>>demonstrate that they're not the head of the family.
>
>That's a pretty rigorous system, followed by royal and princely families,
>and more commonly in England, but not observed everywhere.  At least in
>France, the coats of arms can be born by all male members: otherwise,
>you'd get tens of thousands of blazons within a few generations, and it would
>defeat the purpoose.
>
>The title, on the other hand (earl, duke,...) can only be born by one
>member at a time: but that is distinct from the coat of arms. Correct me
>if I'm wrong.


Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: quasar@ctt.bellcore.com (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Grants of Arms from the British College of Arms
Organization: Bellcore
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:32:47


Not in any way to belittle the SCA College of Heraldry, (which I
believe must have an old registry for "Raphael the Alchemist"
somewhere on its lists) but it has been a vague ambition of mine for
some time to track down the rules for "Honorary Grants of Arms" which
is what I believe the British College of Arms calls coats of arms
newly designed for formerly non-armigerous people.

As I am a US citizen born in England, I believe it's possible I can
make some vague claim to dual citizenship, depending on current UK law
and/or the UK law on the subject at the time of my birth, which might
be enough to convince whichever herald has the responsibility to
review an application.

However, both on that point, and on the various other requirements
that the British College of Arms make have for such a grant of arms, I
am somewhat clueless -- does anyone out there know what the real rules
are in general for an application for an honorary grant of arms, and
whether or not there is any chance my possibly ambiguous status
entitles me to make such an application?

And finally, if such specific knowledge is unavailable, does anyone
know the address of the appropriate official (some Pursuivant, I
presume) of the College of Arms to whom I could make an inquiry?

Thanks in advance,

--
	         Laurence R. Brothers (quasar@bellcore.com)
      Bellcore -- Computer Technology Transfer -- Knowledge-Based Systems
       "There is no memory with less satisfaction in it than the memory
            of some temptation we resisted." -- James Branch Cabell
From: james@cadillac.Eng.Sun.COM (James Mangin)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Tartans
Date: 14 Sep 1992 17:37:43 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: james@cadillac.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: cadillac

There is an X based tool called "xtartan" that displays a whole bunch of tartans,
should be available on most ftp sites.  You all probably knew that though...

Cheers,

James
---
James Mangin                           |"Alone on a midnight passage,
Sun Microsystems Computer Corporation  |I can't count the falling stars
Mountain View, California              |While the Southern Cross & the satellites
                                       |they remind me of where we are" - Jimmy Buffett

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:15:48 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep12.234133.12213@wixer.cactus.org> badger@wixer.cactus.org (Badger) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.171130.6799@westford.ccur.com> frank@westford.ccur.com (Frank Tredeau) writes:
>>In article <shralp.716055440@camelot> shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:
>>
>>>Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?
>>
>>How about two golden arches on a rectangular red field?

>	The shape of the field matters not a whit.

Tut tut, some acheivments are specified as being displayed "in
lozenge", if I remember my Fox-Davies. I believe there was
another field shape that could be specified?\

Carolus/Charles
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Communist Heraldry (was: Latvian heraldry (was: Concepts... : 
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:14:40 GMT

In article <18ugshINN12r@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:

>While the Soviet replacement for traditional heraldry doesn't really
>mix well with the original, I think 'communist heraldry' makes up an
>interesting topic all by itself, ugly or not.  It's perhaps best kept
>apart from the real discipline, but the municipal arms of Heby, Sweden,
>contains among other things two red sickles with crossing blades and a
>red pair of pincers, and there are plenty of hammers all across the
>rest of the country... ;-)

"Socialist" heraldry has found its way into other non-communist countries
as well.  The Austrian eagle has, since the founding of the Austrian
Republic, carried in its claws a hammer and sickle (symbols of the proletar-
iat and the peasantry), and the Italian Republic displays a cogwheel, also
a symbol of the urban proletariat.

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: Misc.
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:13:24 GMT



If you locate a set of Reitstap, look up the Swiss family of Wurst for a good
example of canting (punning) arms... I refer to gold, on a black gridiron
(like a hibachi grill) two wurst, embowed and addorsed (curved away from each
other) red". When I showed that to my friends, we all yelled "weinie roast!":-)

Suze{
trifid@agora.rain.com