From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Intellectual involvement in Magick
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 01:50:05 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

9207.30 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Mike Smuga-otto quotes David and then writes, I respond to both:

Recently, David Tomlinson wrote:
> I have been working on (in my head) an idea about the 
> goals of metaphysical techniques around the world, and it 
> would seem to me that the first goal of all 'Magickal
> Systems' is to stop the internal dialogue ie. your thoughts, 
> and the second is to obtain control over your dreams.


Tagi's response to David:

To posit the cessation of the internal dialogue as the 'first goal',
especially of ALL disciplines, is an error as I see it.  Some focus on
the dialogue as a means of transformation.  For these such an 'elimination'
would be tantamount to dissolving the tool to achieve the Work.

Unless you can describe exactly of what a 'thought' consists and how it
differs in content from a 'feeling' or 'emotion', then I'd seriously doubt
that 'thoughts' per se will EVER be stopped.  I do think that thoughts may
become more inclusive of feelings, however, and that they may eventually
transport us to direct experience.

With regard to obtaining 'control over dreams', I think this is ludicrous.
Only the mad objectivist egotist would attempt such a 'taming' of the
subconscious mind and though 'dreamwork' (i.e. infusing the
conscious mind into dreamstate via waking or sleeping processes) can be
very effective, any attempt to achieve a 'control' over
dreams is likely to result in the backlash which humans now face while
attempting to control nature.  It is silly and dangerous.


Mike:

This approach to Magick, when stated in such simple terms, gave me a somewhat
startling jolt.  I became interested in Magick as another way of exploring
the self - and as such, I forgot that self-transcendence requires the 
cessation of the "internal dialogue". Bummer. There is hope, however, for the
intellectual position. I had recently read (_The Devils of Loudun_ by Aldous
Huxley), that in their later and mellower years, the Jesuits (which were a
strict ritualistic organization) had allowed silent meditation as a method
of prayer.  They thus encouraged "internal dialogue" as a means of gaining
a better understanding of the mystical universe.  Could this attitude not also
succeed in Magick, where currently complex ritual is used to blot out any and
all thoughts?


Response:

Magick doesn't always involve complex ritual.  Too many people take it to
be a system of ceremonial disciplines.  While I agree that ceremonial magick
is very important and provocative, there is much more to Magick than this.

A good example is shamanism, which treats thoughts as entities, lifeforms
with which one has direct dealings.  Some shaman do engage complex ritual,
yet not all do, and many don't plan it ahead or recite lofty poetry.

Your mention of the Jesuits is intriguing.  I often see a distinct overlap
between religion and magick in the area of mysticism.  There are many grey
areas and some Jesuits engage magical practices within their regimen.


By the way, there are some of us who do not accept the necessity of
'self-transcendant thought removal'.  Many ceremonial mages and ascetic
monks seem positively certain that the ONLY way to Heaven is through the
DISsolution of the self, a sort of blasting apart of the ego.  I agree
that this is one way to do it, but certainly not the only way.

I favor a more harmonious entry into Unity.  Transformation, since it
happens all the time anyway, seems a much more reasonable path for me.
I plan to simply evolve, fade through the Abyss, similarly to how 
Simon Iff wades through magical effects in _Moon Child_.  With Love,
all things are possible.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!

Fr. Nigris