HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: The New Greek Phobia (phobos): [ Part 2 from 5 ]
Date: 2 Sep 92 03:14:36 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
|   ...
|   If the people in Macedonia/Skopjie (or the people in Quebec or
|   Scotland or Vermont) want to be independent why shouldn't they 
|   have that right?
| 
|   This is not the 19th century when it was considered cool to 
|   either rule vast tracts of land and diverse peoples who didn't
|   want to be ruled by others (e.g., the British Empire), or to 
|   fight wars to try to prevent people who wanted to rule themselves
|   from doing so (e.g., The American Revolution or Civil War).  A
|   huge percentage of the conflicts around the world today are the
|   result of people trying to rule other people who want to rule
|   themselves (e.g., in the Balkans, the Kurds, the Palestinians,
|   various conflicts on the Indian subcontinent, etc.)   ...

If anything I read in the news is true, this is not what's
going on in the Balkans.  Rather than the Bosnians trying to
rule themselves, there are a great many armed groups (19
according to a U.N. source), identified with various
ethnicities, vying for bits of power and killing a lot of
people in the process.  In Bosnia, most of these people
were once residents of Bosnia, but now they are "Croats",
"Serbs", and "Muslims."  The present situation was
probably made inevitable by the German recognition of
Croatia and Slovenia, something the Germans pushed over on
the rest of Europe, as you may recall.  I hope they're
happy with the outcome.  Maybe it was inevitable anyway.

The Greek attitude towards the name of Macedonia seems like
comic relief compared to the rest of this; at least they're
not killing anyone, yet.  But I don't really understand it
and I keep thinking there must be something behind it we
haven't heard yet.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State? (was: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 4 from 4 ])
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:27:16 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences

buis@buengc.bu.edu (Biomed Dept I.S.L.) writes:

>	That was directly fuel for the the irrational nationalism on both 
>	sides in the Greeco-Macedonian problem. And that caused the 
>	Greek side to write about "slavophonos", "slavic Macedonians"
>	"Slavs", "bilingual Hellens" or who-knows-what name was invented,
>	and the Macedonian side, like Mr. Apoleski, to talk about the same 
>	words and letters used by the Alexander the Great and the 
>	new-Macedonian alphabet created by Blazhe Koneski, and the nine-member
>	commettee in 1945, ofcourse under the flag with the Star of Vergina.
>	

I don't think anyone has written about "bilingual Hellens". What I am
talking about is Romans. Even a century after the creation og the Greek 
kingdom the people could be used to calling themselves Hellenes but 
preferred the word Rhomioi. In a way or another, all the balkan states
seem to have forgotten their medievial past looking backwards to antiquity.
Note that for the westerners when they refer to medievial ages the word 
Greek is synonym to the word Roman, Rhomios. You see, by claiming that
the eastern roman empire was Greek the german invaders could claim to
be the heirs of the roman empire.  So, I hope you undestand why I see 
nothing weird in bilingual or slavophone or whatever-phone Greeks. 
The link of these people has been the history and tradition of millemnia 
and not their language or customs.

						 Bye,
						Yannis.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
Subject: The New Greek Phobia (phobos): [ Part 2 from 5 ]
Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 07:01:30 GMT


The New Greek Phobia (phobos) 
----------------------------
(Part 2 from5 )


Alexander The Great

The Greek ideology is busy printing luxurious leaflets
on the topic "falsification of the historical truth",
in which, with a careful selection of
historical facts, each time they want to prove two
things - that Alexander The Great was a Greek and that
the Macedonian Nation was "Tito's invention", and as
well the language. The first statement ( according to
non-greek historical literature ) is at the least not
founded, and the second one is misusing the fact that
one nation had the chance for the first time to be
politically constituted after the Second World War.
Even if the both statement are true, what does it have
to do with the present efforts to avoid
destabilization of the Balkan region.


Territorial pretensions

The territorial claims of the northern neighbours "The
Skopjans" the greek side is supporting with maps of
united Macedonia which are mostly ilegally distributed by the
macedonian emigration, but also with some statements
of the leaders of VMRO, a strong nationalistic party.
The guarantees provided by the official 
statute of Macedonia which last winter satisfied the
EC commission and the statements of the macedonian
president Gligorov in which the Macedonian state is
demanting any antic claims are not enough. Posters,
writings on shopping bags, stamps on every possible
paper - even on electricity bills - are trying to prove
that "Macedonia is Greek".

Behind the fierce fight "about a national matter" most
probably there is no intention to enlarge the greek part
of Macedonia, the simple reason being the fact that
the whole operation is executed with defensive
politics which with the inherited fear from all the
previous failures extremely emotinaly - and
completely counter-productive - with methods from the
past tries to keep what it has, because before all Greece
feels threatened. The roots of this feeling are very
deep and far away - from the death of Alexander the
Great, three c. BC, until the liberation from the
Turks in 1821, we can not speak of a united greek
land, on the territory which includes present Greece.


-------To be continoued-------

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8462 soc.culture.greek:8399
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:10:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


Erland sez:
>Aren't several of the states and cities in the US named after Indian
>tribes?

 American tribes last year stages massive protests against football and
baseball teams that use American Indian names, protesting that these
humiliate their native culture.

Most of the protests were directed against the Atlanta Braves
(Brave=Indian warrior), whose fans wave "tomahawks"
during games, and the Cleveland Indians, both for their name and for the
fact that their fans wear ceremonial eagle feathers during games, a
horrible insult to Indians who consider eagle feathers a sacred symbol
of their culture. The Washington(?) Redskins were also picketted, as
redskin is considered by many Indians an insult.

I may have gotten the city-team relationships wrong in the above (not a
great Football fan), but the facts about the protests remain.

Ofcource, the Indians were unable to do anything against the Big Money
that owns american sports (The Braves are owned by Ted Turner, owner of
CNN, TNT and TBS).

Many americans find the American Indian claims to be valid, and many
editorials were written favoring the Indian side on the matter (I was on
their side too, if you ask, and that was before the Macedonia issue
surfaced).

 So, you see, there is a precedent on claims to names by nations.

Michael.
      
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8271 soc.culture.bulgaria:1225 soc.culture.greek:8099
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 3 from 4 ]
Date: 29 Aug 92 12:53:36 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <Aug.28.23.58.11.1992.8402@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:

[deleted]

>How can Macedonia become a puppet of any kind of Turkey ? If they
>are Macedonians, they will want to stay independent. If they
>are not Macedonians (as some people claim) then maybe they'll
>decide they're Bulgarians after all ?

The majority of the people in Rep. of Macedonia are not Bulgarians. Not
because of other reasons, but simply because they don't feel being
Bulgarians. I think that the majority of the Bulgarians realize that,
whatever the memories of the older generation Bulgarians and Macedonian
Bulgarians are. Whatever is written in ANY book or reference from before
WWI and WWII, it has little impact on how the majority of people from
Vardar Macedonia feel nowadays. Can't anybody realize that people are what
they feel? It matters little what was 70 - 100 years ago. If nowadays one
feels Macedonian (in terms of national consciousness !!!) - he is such. And
the same point must be realized by people trying to convince other people
(or the rest of the world) that others who don't feel so are ethnic
Macedonians (while these "others" had never had such national
consciousness. No need to Bulgarize people who don't feel Bulgarians, no
need to Macedonize people who don't feel Macedonians (!!!in terms of
national consciousness).

>> they will fade into non existance as Bulgaria will slowly mix
>> the cultures and make a uniform people out of the two countries. 
>
>Well, are they Bulgarians or Macedonians ?

According to many Greek, they are ... "Slavs" or "Bilingual Greeks". Didn't
you understand this?


>	mark	

Luben

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
				Gotse Delchev
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: cza@troy.uucp (22141-akgun)
Subject: Re: Master Untrue Totally Lying Unit: Take a course in Math
Organization: Bell Communications Research, Navesink, NJ
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 05:21:09 GMT

In article <x#hnd_a.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>
>Panos Tamamidis asks why other Turks don't condemn Mutlu's behavior.
>Many have in e-mail to me. When I asked one why he didn't condemn
>Mutlu publicly, he replied that Mutlu had threatened him and others,
>and that many Turks are afraid of their immigration status.
>
>Since Mutlu is on my kill list because of his behavior, I won't read
>any responses he may make to this post, nor reply to them.
>

Sternlight,

Your wish is granted as far as I read from your post above.
You've got the hard evidences in your hand, haven't you?,
You should keep your promise and start legal actions
against Mutlu.  As you said before, blackmailing people
in US because of political views is a pretty big crime that
requires FBI to get involved.  This piece of information
will really do Mutlu in once for all.  What are you waiting for?  
FBI keeps confidentiality to the fullest extent as long as
you or whoever mailed you can back this claim up.
If you don't mind, I cannot speak for all but I would
like to know the outcome of your efforts if this is not a 
cheep stunt.  You have to provide updates on this.
If not, please do not do a hit and run type of accusation 
like above that no one can verify the truth in it.
Leave this to people who are more accustomed to it as I have
seen one too many so far.  At least, they stop when one
get serious with them.

C. Akgun
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: STOP BULLYING AND INTIMIDATING MACEDONIAN PEOPLE
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:10:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BtpH52.4Lv
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

buis@buengc.bu.edu (Biomed Dept I.S.L.) writes:

>	If you feel Sik(h) you are a Sik(h) !

	Nobady is forcing you to be stupid.

>	That is exactly the point I am trying to make. Let the 
>	people be what they feel they are. If they don't feel 
>	Greek, don't force them, no metter whether they feel
>	Slav, Turkish, Macedonian or even Sikh.

        Your claims are unjustified.  You should limit your imagination.

	Nobady has prevented those people to speak out their feelings
	to that journalist.  If they really exist, nobady in Greece could
	hide their existence.  Instead, I keep reading about the existence
	of this minority, and the only proof is that a journalist saw
	some people in a cafe.  Now, with the exception of this summer,
	thousands of Slavs from the north visit Greece during the year.
	If that journalist saw a few, this proves nothing. I've lived in
	Macedonia for 23 years, and haven't seen a single one.

> 
>		Xairete,

>			Lou


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Canada's voice in Bosnia Conflict (General Lewis MacKenzie)
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 21:35:28 GMT

Joseph Blazic  (blazic@ecf.toronto.edu) relays an editorial from
The Toronto Star, Tuesday, August 11, 1992.

>   For all his expertise as a peacekeeper, MacKenzie remains a military man,
>schooled in the tactics, dynamics and decision-maker equipped to decide
>fundamentally political - not military - questions.

Huh? Is this correctly transscribed? You didn't happen to sawp
"political" and "military" here, Joe?

>   But his concerns about the military risks seen to have blinded him to the
>costs of continued indifference.
>   Defiant and belligerent as the Serbians may be, the are hardly invincible.
>They are merely the remnants of an isolated, faltering, former Communist 
>regime with no backing from any significant foreign power.
>...
>   He reaches the wrong conclusion, namely that a messy military challenge
>outweighs the political, strategic - and above all, moral - exigencies of the
>Yugoslav conflict.
>...
>   The world has watched and waited in the vain hope that the Bosnian conflict
>would somehow take care of itself.  It hasn't.  The time has come for the U.N
>Security Council to intervene militarily.

What the Toronto Star is saying is basically, it hasn't help to look at
it from the side, let's intervene and see if that helps. McKenzie is
saying that it doesn't, but the Star dismisses him because they think 
that the political considerations are more important than the military
ones.

If the reason we are intervening is because we want to mandate peace,
we should be very careful and listen to the military expertise to tell
whether this is possible.

On the other hand, if we think that the cause of the Muslims and
Croats is ours, we should of course not be stopped by military doubts.
But is that really our reason to intervene? Has The Toronto Star lost
its thin layer of civilazation and become just another war monger?

From my point of view a military intervention is only defencible
if two conditions are fulfilled:
1) there is a concrete military goal of the operation
2) there are good possibilities to reach that goal

In Kuwait both these conditions were fulfilled, in B-H none of them are.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: enis@thumper..bellcore.com (A. Enis Cetin)
Subject: Re: Mutlu
Summary: CIA, MIT
Keywords: Head of Turkeys
Reply-To: enis@thumper.UUCP (A. Enis Cetin)
Organization: Bellcore MRE
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 18:32:40 GMT

In article <BtpFyv.43u@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
>han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) writes:
>
>><BtMJqC.7A4@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
>>ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
>
>>>>Then we noticed the 'tamtam.' There's a little pronged fork sticking up 
>>>>at the end of his abdomen.
>
>>> Very typical Master Untrue Totally Lying Unit(s) answer.  When he has
>>> nothing to say, he replies with an offense.
>
>>Ever seen a 'tamtam?' You know, those centipedelike things with wooden
>>'palikaryas' in rows. They're sold mostly in 'yunan' import shops, for
>>wall decoration. 
> 
> Why every Turk is affraid to condemn your behavior? 

Because he works for Turkish CIA. 
You know what ! In Turkey those turkeys who don;t follow the
rules are roasted according to recipies of the Turkish CIA.
Turkish CIA uses grease to cook turkeys. Especially
the grease which comes from the  Islands are highly recommended
in recipies.

>>Hasan B-) Mutlu

>---> Panos Tamamidis
>     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Tamam mi ? (= Is  it OK ?) 


Enis Cetin

--------
Standard claimer: Whatever I say is in full complient
with the Turkish Government wievs. Turkey (not chicken)
is responsible for the problems that this e-mail may 
cause.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8380 soc.culture.greek:8266 soc.culture.europe:7957 talk.politics.misc:43033 talk.politics.theory:3955 soc.culture.bulgaria:1269 soc.culture.turkish:9544
From: s902211@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Zoran Kalenic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: WHO'S THE BIGGER NAZI?
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:26:54 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia

rdc@netcom.com (Rachel Dafni Christy) writes:

>HISTORY IN A NUTSHELL:

>DURING WWII, THE CROATIANS WERE THE NAZI LOVERS, ONLY TOO HAPPY TO
>HELP THE NAZI'S AND KILL SERBS.  TODAY, THE SERBIANS ARE ACTING LIKE
>THE NAZI'S KILLING THE CROATIANS.

The part about Serbians acting like nazi's is highly debateable and something
i wont go into here.

>QUESTIONS:

>WHO'RE THE BIGGER NAZIS, SERBIAN OR CROATIANS?  HOW MANY ARE IN FAVOR
>OF DROPPING TWO NUCLEAR BOMBS ON YUGOSLAVIA, REMOVING THE SERBIAN AND
>CROATIAN SCUM, AND DESTROYING THOSE GOD AWEFUL YUGO'S TO BOOT.

So you're supporting genocide against two nations.. wasn't that the nazi 
dream?? So i ask... WHO'RE THE BIGGER NAZIS, THE RACHEL, CROATIANS OR SERBIANS?
HOW MANY IN FAVOR OF RACHEL BEING PUT INTO A MENTAL INSTITUTION??

>cj gypsy

Zoran Kalenic.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 3 from 4 ]
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 19:06:12 GMT

hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:

>In article <1992Aug28.001713.12025@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU writes:

>> 	I have only one question which is constantly ignored. What the hell
>> is the Star of the ancient Makedon kings doing on their flag !!!!

>I have a simple question. Lots of flags have stars. What's so special
>about this star ?

 The drawing of this star is different from the stars seen in the other flags.
 This drawing (of the star) is unique.  It was the symbol of the ancient
 Macedonians, who were beyond any doubt Greeks.

 The propaganda from Skopjia says that they are the Macedonians, and that 
 "northern Greece, (they call it: Aegean Macedonia) is occupied by Athens".

 Thus, the use of this unique star in their flag, along with their claims
 against Greek land and history, shows beyond any doubt their hostile
 intensions.

>	mark	



-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: The New Greek Phobia (phobos): [ Part 2 from 5 ]
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:45:36 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <BtwM9I.EB6@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:

>  The larger question about this rather tiresome little topic is
>  this:  What difference does it make what Alexander the Great's
>  nationality was or who invented either the region or the name?
>  All of this is completely immaterial.   The only relevant question
>  is this:  If a nontrivial number of people (i.e., "nation sized"
>  whatever that means, but let's say a million or so since there
>  are other countries with such populations) in some locale feel
>  that they represent a distinct enough culture to want to form
>  their own nation, why shouldn't they have the right to do so?
>  And why shouldn't they have the right to call it whatever they
>  want?
>
>  If the people in Macedonia/Skopjie (or the people in Quebec or
>  Scotland or Vermont) want to be independent why shouldn't they
>  have that right?
[..]
>
>---peter

And who told you that Greece is opposed to the independence of
Skopje? As long as it doesn't bother me, I have no problem.

Greece is opposed to the use of the name "Macedonia", not
because of the name, but of what this implies. Bulgaria
recognizes a coutry under this name, but no Macedonian nation,
etc.

Perhaps somebody can explain, why Germany is opposed to the use
of the word ECU for the EEC currency or even why Copywright
Laws, etc  exist (e.g. why can't I set up a company in the USA called
"Microsoft"). Think of the implications.

With all due respect

Panayotis
--
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia