From: sleibowitz@hamp.hampshire.edu
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: An End to All Arguments (Long and Facetious)
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:03:25 EDT
Organization: Hampshire College
NNTP-Posting-Host: hamp.hampshire.edu

In article <1993Jan6.134204.12312@hsr.no>, barclay@hpa.rf.no (Barclay Stevenson) writes:
> 			 An End to All Arguments
> 			 -----------------------

		(Or Perhaps, A Beginning to Yet Another)
		----------------------------------------
 
> God is a good God, God is righteous and God is just. This is the basic
> nature of God (God is love).
> If you do not agree, then your God is just a god.

Instantly, I am awash with confusion. I was under the impression that this was
to be a rational argument... an _argument_ to end all arguments, as it were.
But, looking back on the title, I see that this was a rash assumption. Instead
of the grounds for a thoughtful argument, what we have to so far is a sketchy
proclimation based on circular logic and no apparent evidence. However, being 
the stubborn secular humanist that I am, I'll just try to proceed as if it were
an argument.

In the section we've just read, we begin with a major assumption: the existance
of a god (we'll call him, just for the sake of argument, God). Immediately
following, the author begins describing the natue of this "God". Finally, in
what is probably the most puzzling statement so far, we are informed that any
disagreement with the first statements proves that the god we worship (assuming
that we worship only one god, or any at all) is somehow of a lesser caliber
than "God," but is, nonetheless, real (otherwise, why would he mention it?).
You know, I could have a field day with just this section alone, but since
we've got a lot of ground to cover, I'll try to be brief. In the meantime,
let's assume that this lesser god exists, further assume that I worship him,
and call him (for the sake of argument, and with apologies to Wizards of the
Coast Inc.) Joey, the God of Basketweaving.
  
> It is because of the earthly limitations of our brains (and thence pride
> in our hearts) that we can start to argue if God is unjust,
> or doesn't care.

I would postulate that perhaps the reason we can make that argument is becuase
we are rational individuals capable of making hypotheses, observing, and
drawing informed conclusions from our observations... well, perhaps not all of
us. After all, that's how Joey made us to be. 
 
> Jesus said that we cannot even understand earthly things, how then could
> he start to explain heavenly things for us.

Jesus? Who is... oh! I see. The son of your God. Well, only makes sense that he
should "take up the company line" as it were... his father would be annoyed if
he didn't. By the way, Joey says that we _can_ understand earthly things, and
we _can_ understand heavenly things. It just takes time, courage, and an open
mind.
 
> Paul explains it like seeing through a glass darkly.
> Don't critisize the view when it's your eyesight that's the problem

Paul... oh. Boy, there sure are a _lot_ of you God people, aren't there? In
any case, since Joey believes that while the power of observation is not always
trustworthy, but is usually all we have to go on, I have to disagree. What you
seem to be suggesting is the following:
	Just because we cannot see God does not mean that he does not exist.

...in which case, I'd have to respond...
	Just because we cannot see Joey does not mean that he does not exist.

Oh, and while I'm at it, I might as well add that Joey is not an angry god, or
a jealous god, and even would be willing to admit the possibility that your
"God" exists. Why? Because he's a god, and above worrying about it.
 
> Reading some articles here in this group shows that some talk from their
> intellectual understanding of God without knowing him in person.
> Like in this natural world, it's only when you live with a person that
> you really get to know them. So it is when you have the Spirit of Christ
> in you, it's then that you understand and experience that God is good,
> loving, and not willing that any should perish.

*sigh*
The truth is, I cannot admit to ever having met Christ, God, or Joey in person.
However, since I am imbued with the Spirit of Joey, and have true faith in The
Eternal Basket of Delight, and fear The Wicker Nasty Place, I am assured of my
place in the cosmic scheme of things.
 
> But, this can be like explaining what colour is to a blind man.
> The Bible says "Lean not to your own understanding"

Exactly! Trust in Joey!
 
> There is a great chasm between Christians filled with the Holy Spirit and
> unbelievers that cannot be crossed by the bridge of intellect, reasoning, or
> consensus. There is only one bridge, the one already supplied by The Lord and
> Saviour Jesus Christ accomplished through his sacrifice on the cross, and by
> faith you cross it.

Assuming, of course, that we're interested in your Holy Spirit. _I'm_ quite
satisfied with Joey's. He's much nicer than your old Jehovah person anyway.

> The fact remains that the Bible is not for arguments, but is Truth that
> can set you free by accepting it whether you are Jew or heathen, pagan,
> Witch or witch, or reject it and remain under Satans' dominion.

Of course it is. As are the teachings of Joey. Joey admits that these things are
all metaphorical, and therefore can be considered "true" despite the fact that
they may conflict on certain points.  However, I'm sure he would wonder why a
Jew, pagan, or whatever would be at all interested in the Christ thing when
these people apparently have their own, perfectly "valid" religions. But, that
is one of the greater mysteries, I suppose.

> It isn't even sufficient just to believe the Bible. Even the devil has
> greater "faith" and knowledge than many. He believes and trembles,
> because he has had first hand experience with God, so he does the next
> best thing - get humans to doubt.

Of _course_ the devil has greater faith than many! If he is willing to even
admit the existance of God, then he's already one step ahead of Atheists! (And
I must confess at this point that I haven't heard any solid evidence yet that
the Atheists are wrong...)
 
> We can never expect to know God fully, but he does reveal himself
> sufficiently in the Bible so that we can be rescued from hell to Heaven.
> And, yes, there are passages of the Bible that are difficult for us to
> understand (even Peter says that). But you don't have to understand all
> the ingredients of a medicine to be healed from a disease.

Listen! I know all of you reading this know little about Him, but Trust in
Joey! Joey is the light and the way, the Cosmic Weaver! He makes a killer
picnic basket! Repent now!
 
> ------------------------   Some Scipture references:   ----------------------

  ------------------------Excerpted from the Teachings of----------------------
				     Joey:

> Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own
> 	 understanding. (KJV)

Book of the Basket, 2:3
	Honest, Joey's great. Trust in him. But if you've got something that 
	works alright for you, don't sweat it! Joey won't mind.
 
> John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye
>           believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (KJV)

Wicker 4:3
	And Joey said unto his children "Of _course_, I will explain to you all
	I can! For though you aren't as holy and neato as I, you are still 
	living beings worthy of respect, and should therefore be given the
	chance to understand your world."
 
> John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
> 	  whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
> 	  life. (KJV)

Horn of Plenty 8:2
	For know that it is the truth that Joey so loved the world that he gave
	them really nice furniture and those things you can hang plants in. He 
	considered giving him his son, but decided that since his son was an
	individual worthy of making his own decisions, he would let his son
	give also, as he saw fit.
 
> [lots of similar stuff deleted]

Look, I suppose what you're saying in your own, cute, roundabout way is, that
the Bible is the truth, whether we believe it or not, and though it's never to
late to repent, we should come to accept and love Christ, or we'll be in deep
doo-doo. That's fine. What I am saying in (in my own cute etc.) is that I think
that, as the saying goes, you're full of shit.

Rational e-mail replies are welcome and appreciated.

					Samuel J. Leibowitz
					"Smiling Wolf"
					sleibowitz@hamp.hampshire.edu