HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: *Jesus of Nazareth*
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:57:59 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.203345.23169@cmcl2.nyu.edu> memco@cns.nyu.edu writes:
>	I've been wondering what the specific Jewish
>theological reaction to several components of Christian
>theology are.

As you can assume, questions of Christian theology should be
directed to Christian newsgroups.

In the spirit  of the season I'll take a shot, but really encourage
you to direct these questions of Christian theology to Christian
theologists.


>1)	My understanding of Jewish tradition concerning the
>sacrifice of animals in the Temple is that their blood
>(along with the sincere repentance of the offender) washed
>away the sin.

No.   There were explicitly defined sacrificial procedures, at least
one of which included sprinkling of the animals blood on the altar.
The entire ceremony/procedure constituted the sin offering.  The
blood on the altar is one small part.  You can read this in the Bible.
The "blood washing away sin" stuff is a non-Jewish invention.

The remainder of your questions are based on Christian theology and
I would not insult any Christian readers by attempting to comment
on Christian theology.  I strongly recommend you ask Christian
theologists.
>
>I'm honestly not trying to be provacative. Every time I think
>on these issues (which isn't often) these are the interpretations
>I come up with. I want to know if they're supported by Jewish
>theological thought or not.  I'm also thinking of posting this to
>some Christian newsgroup to hear their interpretations, but this
>group's thoughts are more important to me.

I don't understand what you want to know.   Is suicide prohibited?
Sure.   Is cannibalism prohibited?  Sure.   I'm sure you knew this
before posting.

Is eating a communion wafer cannibalism?   Until a few months ago, 
the Sisters of Carmel Community of Columbus operated a wafer bakery
less than 2000 feet from my front door.  The nuns used to jog and
walk up and down my block, and their communion wafer business served
the entire midwest area --   quite a few states. I've seen the
bakery in operation, and I'd almost bet that if they had obtained
rabbinical supervision for their operation, they could have been
certified as kosher.  If they were certified kosher, I'd have no
problem eating them.  (If they didn't taste really great, I'd
probably not buy any, but that's the way it is.)

There's a cutesy riddle:  If you call a dog's tail a leg, how
many legs does a dog have?  Answer:  Four.  Calling a tail a leg
doesn't make it so.   

If you called a sheep a pig would it be kosher?  Sure.  Calling it
a pig doesn't change it from a sheep to a pig.
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: small@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Peter Small)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Typing Hebrew using MS-WORD
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:46:07 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle

Greetings,

A coworker needs to find out how to type hebrew chracters
from right to left using microsoft Word.  He has already purchased
a Hebrew true type font and will be running Word for Windows
in Windows 3.1.

Please send any help to kdh0967@emdc.boeing.com or reply to me,
the poster.

Thanks in advance,

PS

-- 
-----------------------------|**************************************************
-- small@bcstec.ca.boeing.com|
-- uunet!bcstec!small        |
-----------------------------|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: A personal experience in Poland
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 02:59:46 GMT

isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin) writes:

>Your statement that POLES did not take part in the final solution
>is palpable rubbish. Wash your mouth out. My family is a living
>witness to it.

By "final solution" I understand the implementation of a plan that the
Nazis came up in the early fourties (1941-2?) for the systematic
extermination of the Jews in death camps. It was implemented by units
of the SS. I am not aware of any Poles who participated in the units of
the SS that run the camps, or any other SS units.

However, I concede that there were occurences where armed groups of
Poles have murdered Jews during the war, due to violent antisemitism
or other reasons. But this is not participation in the "final
solution", as these groups were not acting on directives of the
Germans, and were not organised specifically to murder Jews in
accordance with plans for the "final solution".

This does not mean that the effect was any different, or that these
people are any better than the Nazis (because they did not have a
master plan). They are contemptible war criminals that should be
brought to trial whenever possible.


MB
From: ptyaxel@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Seymour Axelrod)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Whence the minyan?
Date: 8 Oct 92 16:04:00 GMT
Organization: SUNY at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

What is the origin of the requirement for 10 men?  I recently told someone
who asked that it was post-biblical, but I am now not so sure.  In any case, 
where is it written?  Thanks.


Seymour Axelrod, Psychiatry, State University of New York at Buffalo
PTYAXEL@UBVMS.BITNET                    PTYAXEL@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: * Yeshu ? *
Keywords: pun
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:14:14 GMT
Organization: liver ---> spleen

In article <1992Oct16.161803.26311@news.columbia.edu>
jbaltz@hebrew.cc.columbia.edu (Jerry B Altzman) writes:

>In article <1992Oct16.013640.8221@cbnews.cb.att.com>
>ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:

>>In article <2682@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>>>dg = gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
>>>dg: There is no n+1 "coming" for n not equal to zero.
>>>me: must n be an integer?
>>>dg: No.  But it must be real.
>>>Perhaps imaginary values of n are for occasions that the mashiach
>>>almost came but didn't?
>>You raise a very complex issue, indeed.
>You can't imagine the magnitude of it. 
Neither can i.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conservative Choirs
Date: 9 Oct 92 23:25:44 GMT
Reply-To: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin

In article 5224@cbnewsl.cb.att.com, stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
< < At this distance, it's hard to say just what he was objecting to. 
< < Choirs are pretty standard at conservative services, especially for
< < Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, although a Hillel might not have the
< < resources to organize one.  Many orthodox shuls have choirs 
< < (generally all male).  Presumably the style of the service, and 
< < perhaps the role of the choir (if it did more than conservative 
< < choirs usually do), bothered him.  
< 
< My only experience with a Conservative synagogue choir was in the
< early 1960's (in my early teens). My feeling then was that it made
< a farce of the entire service.
< 
< The synagogue (Temple Beth El in Margate, NJ) had been founded in
< the late 1950's, as Jews were moving out of Atlantic City into
< the other towns on Absecon Island, and we did not have a Cantor.
< For the High Holidays, a quartet was hired to accompany the Rabbi,
< who davened the large-crowd services (on RH, these are the
< Torah Service and Musaf; on YK, there are Kol Nidre/Ma'ariv,
< the Torah Service, Yizkor, and Musaf, and Ne'ilah).
< 

My choir story dates from my college days: I went to a commuter jr. 
college so I could combine my first two years of university into one. 
Anyway, the first Rosh Hashana right after I started school I was 
heading up the back stairs of my Conservative synagogue and bumped 
into my new jr. college choir teacher, a Baptist.  Turned out he 
had been the lead bass in the choir there for years!  

********************************************************************************
Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: PLEASE!  I need your help!  Help me keep this love alive!
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:12:23 GMT

In article <RLK.92Oct9110833@underprize.think.com> rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.222951.6052@guinness.idbsu.edu> holmes@opal.idbsu.edu (Randall Holmes) writes:
>
Holmes:
>   The issue is not "their background".  The issue is "the nature of
>   their obligation to God", a much more serious matter.  You are
>   assuming a profoundly different view of moral issues from theirs by
>   your very use of words like "a relationship", "free choice", "guilt
>   tripping" in this context, one in which the very seriousness of this
>   question is hard to comprehend.
>
Krawitz:
>Well, I suppose that since I'm a nonbeliever it's hard to comprehend the
>very notion of an "obligation to god" in any meaningful sense.  I
>suppose that I do have an entirely different view of moral issues from
>someone who is a believer in the biblical god.

There are two reasons for Jews to object to intermarriage.  The first
is halakhic, which, in one form or another, is an expression of one's
obligation to G-d.  The halakhic reason is sufficient for some Jews,
but obviously not for all.

The second reason -- and I keep coming back to this one -- is
that (with some notable exceptions), intermarriage means that 
the children and grandchildren are unlikely to identify themselves
as Jewish, and will no longer maintain Jewish traditions.  Thus,
to intermarry means to make it probable that one thread of the
tapestry of Jewish history will end with you or your children.

Whatever Judaism means to you (unless it is so universal that it
completely loses any uniqueness), intermarriage will lead to
its demise.  This is not a moral question; it simply focuses on
whether you wish Judaism to survive.



-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: clhoerth@david.wheaton.edu (Cathe L Hoerth)
Subject: Re: *jesus of Nazareth*
Organization: Wheaton College, IL
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 17:25:38 GMT

In article <4273@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>In article <Bvz81H.Lx@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
>(A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>
>>>NOTE: It is interesting that christians selected that cruel murdering
>>>      instrument - the cross - to be their symbol, and they even
>>>      worship that bizaare instrument.
>
>>Another rather unfair generalisation.  Many Christian sects have made a
>>point of _not_ worshiping the cross.
>
>Do you want me to look for all christian spicies?
>The main stream christians: catholic, protestants,  the  eastern and
>many many other types do worship the cross.

	Just a note from a Christian who has lurked on this group for a
while (I didn't see the original post, though, so I may be way off base
with my reply).  Christians do not worship the cross - or at least, most
groups do not, and those that do are, at least in my opinion, falling
into idolatry.  We worship THROUGH the cross, in that it gives us a
visual reminder of the agony suffered by him whom we consider to be our
savior, and thus it provides a focus for our thoughts and
contemplations.  Indeed, there are many Christians who believe that we
should not use the cross as a visual reminder, for the reason that it
may lead to idolatry, and the churches of these groups are devoid of all
visual representations, similar to synagogues.  I am one of those who
sees nothing wrong with using the cross, and the world around us, as
reminders of Hashem's greatness and glory, worshipping in the knowledge
that these things themselves are of no account, but rather are a path
for my weak flesh and simple spirit to think about and experience
Hashem.  In short, I do not think you can label Christians as idolators,
at least not as pertains to graven images.  The fault of prefering the
pleasures and things of the world to the pleasure of serving Hashem is,
sadly, a human flaw and one that is not restricted to Christians.

					Cathe
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel)
Subject: Re: sexism
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 22:52:25 GMT

In article <ldor7sINNfbg@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>
>I've heard this argument about women not being obligated because of 
>their children, but I've never seen the source for it.  Does anyone 
>know its derivation?  Also, does anyone know why it applies even 
>to childless women?

It does apply to childless women since, once you take on an obligation, you
can't get rid of it.  The more relevant question should be if there are
ways to obligate post-menopausal women in time-bound mitzvot.

The other argument regarding women and time-bound mitzvot is that, because
of the menstrual cycle, women inherently have a sense of time while men need
rituals to remind them of changes in time.

Miriam Nadel
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 15:03:32 EDT
From: Callec Dradja <GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Humor in the Bible (was: Heroes in the Bible)
 <1992Oct14.152448.25153@panix.com> <2939@ceylon.gte.com>

In article <2939@ceylon.gte.com>, sg04@ploni.gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon
Gutfreund) says:
>
>
>But can anyone give explicit examples of humor in T'Nach?
>
Many scholars believe that some parts of the book of Jonah
are meant to be humorous especially the part where God
commands that the cows wear sackcloth.

                       Gregson Vaux

********************************************************************
* If all we do is live and die,           *  Gregson Vaux          *
* then tell me about the birds that fly.  *  Penn State University *
* If all we did was die and live,         *  Semitics & English    *
* would springtime be there to forgive?   *  GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu  *
********************************************************************
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Chipmunk the moron
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:05:48 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)

In article <emc.718644137@tristan>, emc@doe (Eli Chiprout) writes:
>>>>I'm talking about the Jewish "universe", obviously.  Get lost.

>>Look brainless one, if you're pursuing non-Jewish angles to a Jewish
>>question as if it matters, you're in the completely wrong newsgroup.

>The big key there is "if".  You make assumptions about my postings 
>which I have not stated.

It was not an assumption on my part.  YOU brought up the existence
of Christian views into the subject as if it had some sort of relevance.

>Answer the Jewish question then instead of evading it.

I couldn't possibly answer it, and never claimed that I could.  I
merely pointed out that universal acceptance (among Jews, that is,
for those with chipmunk brains) is one of the prerequesites.

>Instead of ad hominem verbosity, Weiner.

If you don't like it, don't practice it, Chipmunk.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Adopted children
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:16:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnews.1992Oct15.211610.4262
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio

>> No one today can be 100% sure that they are Cohanim.  It would be a
>> great mistake for someone to assume that he is a Cohen based on his
>> last name, and any Rabbi would be sure to point this out.  There is a
>> family named Cohen in my shul who don't claim to be Cohanim.

Agreed.

Yet I wonder how come we ask people who are unsure if they are
Kohanim, and we are unsure if they are Kohanim, to act as if they
were.  This includes Birchat Kohanim, First aliyah, marriage
restrictions, acting as G-d's agent for the Pidyon Haben, and
being excused (along with male and female children of Leviim as
well) from the need for a Pidyon Haben.

When I asked why we go to great lengths to wear a Tallit, the
answers were so we can fulfill the mitzvah of tzitit.
But that mitzvah is to put one thread of Techeilet (blue?) in the
threads of the tzitit so we can look at the tzitit -- and we will
notice the techeilet - and be reminded of the commandments and keep
them.   Yet we don't use techeilet!   The central reason for wearing
a talit is no longer there!

And when suggestions are made that we do our very best to reproduce
the techeilet, the argument goes:  No.  Because if we are wrong --
if the techeilet is not 100% correct -- we have done something
wrong.

But no one would think we are 100% correct about Kohenim, not even
some Kohanim themselves.   So why do we go along with one standard
for accepting Kohanim and a far higher standard for accepting
Techeilet?
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: donations
Keywords: godd, bad, ugly
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:16:35 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Mazon
2940 Westwood Blvd. Ste 7
Los Angeles, CA 90064-4120

(I assume "Ste" stands for "Suite", but that's the way it is on the envelope)

   Robert

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rmt51@cas.org (Rick Turkel)
Subject: Re: Whence the minyan?
Reply-To: rmt51@cas.org
Organization: S.W.I.G.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 23:37:54 GMT

In my previous post I said one of the spies was Nachshon.  That should have
been Calev, as was pointed out to me by Art Kamlet.  Sorry -- it's been along
day.
-- 
Rick Turkel           (___  ____ _  _  _  _  _     _  ___   _  _ _  ___
(rmt51@cas.org)           )    |  |  \  )  |/ \     |    |   |  \_)    |
(rmt51@cas.bitnet)       /     | _| __)/   | __)    | ___|_  | _( \    |
			Ein navi be`iro.            |

Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:17516 soc.culture.polish:3137
From: silber@orfeo.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Silber)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: A personal experience in Poland
Date: 12 Oct 92 18:18:00 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: orfeo

In article <1992Oct12.152525.6577@discus.technion.ac.il> s1495926@techst02.technion.ac.il (Danny Kreindler) writes:
>I just returned from a trip to Poland where I tried to find
>remnants of Jewish life. There's nothing left, even the
>cemeteries were destroyed. Poland is one big Jewish
>graveyard.  There are hardly any Jews left in Poland, yet
>anti-semitism is quite alive. 
...
>     Can anyone suggest what steps should be taken to remove
>that dangerous and offensive painting from the walls of the
>Samdomierz Cathedral?
>
>     Any comments will be appreiciated- to the s.c.j. or to
>the above address.
>
>     Yaakov Gladstone.

 Although I am a secular Jew and Israel is a modern nation state,
 I often wonder what Israel will do to protect Jews in Europe or
 America from resurgent racist lunacies.  Perhaps you will say that
 it is not Israel's job to protect Ukrainian Jews or Latvian Jews or
 German Jews or Croatian Jews.  What is the policy of Israel today
 concerning resurgent anti-semitism in Europe ?   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: The I-can't-believe-they-got-a-hescher-on-this thread
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:31:43 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.205324.18322@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>Well, the way I see it, there are two issues for a *sanctified*
>communion wafer.
>
>2. According to Catholic belief, a sanctified communion wafer is
>   God. Eating it is thus a form of worship of a physical object;
>   this is idolatrous for a Jew or a goy. Even if a Jew doesn't
>   believe the wafer is God, he is performing an idolatrous
>   ritual; this is forbidden whether he believes in it or not.
>
>Note that both of these issues apply only to a *sanctified*
>communion wafer (i.e. one which has been transubstantiated

This concerns me.

I understand matzoh is sometimes used instead of "official communion
wafers."

Now if anyone went to the local matzoh store and performed a ceremony
to transubstante the matzoh, (doesn't have to be mainstream
ceremony, could be local religion that "transubstantiates" by
pronouncing a religious formula over the boxes of matzoh, would that
make those boxes unkosher?

Seems a quick and dirty way to unkosher all the boxes in a community
like Columbus.  Now if the boxes were shot full of bacon bits, I'd
understand they would be unkosher.   But to say that a box of matzoh
can be unkoshered by someone performing some ritual about them,
just sounds wrong.   

If someone pronounces a "hex" over the matzoh or over the meat
counter at the kosher butcher shop would that make the meat
unkosher?

And could you bring the hexer into court and claim they ruined the
matzoh or the meat by pronouncing the hex?  You'd be thrown out in a
hurry!   


And if the ritual followed by some religion allows the hex to be
performed remotely, and there are religions which do allow hexes to
be done remotely -- I'm not making this up -- then someone could
unkosher stuff from their garage.  And if you learn of this would
you assume the stuff is unkosher?

I understand that unboiled wine is a special category, but why would
matzoh be made unkosher by any words anyone said about it?  Why
should Jews care about the intent of a priest's recitation or of a
hexer's recitation?  They are just words, and words we do not
believe to have any power?   By saying that matzoh that or wafers or
whatever that has had words and ceremony performed around them are
now unkosher gives credibility to the power of a priest or hexer.
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: *jesus of Nazareth*
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 22:24:51 +0100
Organization: "The Private site of Manfredo Tichauer"

ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

> [ deleted lines...]
> In the  synagogues I pray in during the week days there was a forbidden
                                                                ^^^^^^^^^    
> 7 candles menora , I tried to convince the one who run the  synagogues

> [ deleted lines]

  WHY IS IT FORBIDDEN TO USE SEVEN-ARM MENORAHS IN SINAGOGES ?



 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish