From: toby@carson.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 788's
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:30:07 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Oct1.122646.25736@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
#In article <1992Sep30.153235.25727@u.washington.edu> toby@carson.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) writes:
##In article <1992Sep29.143916.17664@amc.com> reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes) writes:
###After noting my 788, and exchanging winks, he told me that he normally
###shot ~.25", and really _couldn't_ figure out his problem.  He sure shook
###up the 30-30 shooters.
#
#It is a bad day at the range when my 788 .22-250 won't do at least
#as well as a few .5" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I have seen the occasional
#.25" group, but it is fairly rare. Note that *I* probably can't
#shoot that well anymore, but the rifle can. My trigger was obviously
#worked over by a previous owner to 1-2 lbs. (it makes me a bit nervous
#to have a "whisper" light trigger on a groundhog rifle actually).
#
#I also don't remember Bob B. claiming that he got or anyone else
#got .25 MOA groups with a 788 at 300 yards ;-).

When I see a statement like that above (not by either Bob, but
by a 788 shooter Bob Brunjes met) 'normally shot ~.25" ' and
the subject is a factory sporter, my bullshit alarm goes off.
A half-inch AVERAGE rifle will shoot quite a few .25" groups,
and just as many .75" groups.  It's still a half-inch rifle,
not a quarter-inch.  (Let's skip the distinction between
normal and Poisson distributions on this thread, OK -- I
know you tech-weenines are out there :> )  I had a Rem 700 PSS
whose lifetime group average with match bullets was ~0.6".  This
is for at least 50 5-shot groups at 100 yards.  I have many,
many .25" targets from that rifle, but that rifle couldn't win
a dime if .25" accuracy is *required* to win.

#And I'm not defending Bob B. just because his name is Bob either :-).

I really don't mean to criticize anybody over this.  I've had
guys at the range show me some little ragged-hole group from
their Remingchester magnum, carefully stored in their wallet
next to the picture of the grandkids.  It doesn't prove much,
since, as my buddy Jerry says when I make a long shot, "the
bullet has to go *somewhere*.  I bet every benchrest shooter
in the world has had the following experience:  A guy looks
over the big rifle carefully crafted by a top gunsmith with
the very best in components, 36X target scope, 18 pound rest, and 
teflon-taped sandbags and a sheet of five targets ALL less than
.25" and says 1) "I have a (.22-250, .243, 7mm Mag, you name it)
that will shoot like that"; 2) "Anybody can shoot like that
off them sandbags"; and 3) "You missed the bullseye".  As Glen
Newick points out in his book "Extreme Rifle Accuracy", it's
pretty hard to get one of these "experts" to bet any money
on their factory wonder-rifle, or to demonstrate the *aggregate*
accuracy potential of such a mythical beast.  I've even gone so
far as to let a couple of these guys punch a few holes with my
6PPC cruiser, and it's rare for them to shoot much under a
half-inch, even though the rifle can shoot in the ones every
time.

Toby Bradshaw
Department of Biochemistry and College of Forest Resources
University of Washington, Seattle
toby@u.washington.edu