HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dlo@druwa.ATT.COM (OlsonDL)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Date: 28 Dec 92 23:37:45 GMT
Distribution: usa



} In article <1992Dec22.194125.14451@kadsma.kodak.com> pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek) writes:
} ...
} As I recall, the Bill of Rights contains a provision regarding
} 'unreasonable searches and seizures'. I would categorize both the
} IRS and DEA seizures as 'unreasonable'. Unfortunately, the Reagan/Bush
} Supreme Court, led by that friend of individual liberty, William
} Rehnquist, doesn't agree.

The people who spearhead the seizures have argued that such things as
the 5th and 6th Amendments to the Bill of Rights apply only to *criminal*
cases.  That is why such seizures are placed under *civil* procedings.
It is further argued that it isn't the owners of that property who are
being arrested; it is the property itself that is being arrested.  And
since property has no rights, it can be taken without due process.

Disclaimer:  I do *NOT* approve of these tactics.  I am just pointing
out the arguments that the powers-that-be have used to rationalize them.
--
David Olson   dlo@druwa.ATT.COM
"Keep in mind that I am speaking from Cambridge Massachusetts, which is
 about as far out as you can get."  Robert Reich, economic advisor to
 Bill Clinton, on "This Week with David Brinkley" 11/08/92
Newsgroups: alt.activism
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Government to Grant Swift Endangered Species Act Protection to Hundreds of Imperiled Species
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 01:14:37 GMT

In article <1hnhckINNnna@gap.caltech.edu> carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
:You make such a nice sheep.  Never questioned the propaganda they fed you in
:high school civics class, have you?  Please answer the following questions:
:    1)	When's the last time your vote mattered in an election?

For me, I'm 33 years old and have voted every year since I was old enough.
Only once has my vote been for the 'winning' party, and that was in the
Referendum for Scottish devolution, and although we 'won' the vote, the
result was ignored because the English politicians changed the rules in a
panic at the last minute by insisting that the vote had something like
a 45% turnout.  Abstentions counted as no votes rather than going with
the majority as in the normal democratic process.

I have serious doubts as to the validity of the voting process in Britain.
I was very buoyed up by your election.  It showed that some minor degree
of change *is* possible.  I'm beginning to think the Tories have bought
themselves into power for life in my own country.

G
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: burgett@adobe.com (Michael Burgett)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Followup-To: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
Organization: What?? Me organized??
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 19:15:14 GMT

Bob Blackshaw (bob1@cos.com) wrote:
: In <BzMDI7.7JI.2@cs.cmu.edu> zitsky+@CS.CMU.EDU (Mark Ryan Miller) writes:

[ .... ]

: Sorry Mark, I'm not blind to the faults of our government, nor am I blind
: to areas where things can be improved. It's simply that I can't recall the
: last time (or any time) when I stuck my nose and mouth into the internal
: affairs of Finland, The United Kingdom, or the countries of any of the
: other U.S.'s self appointed critics. If that pisses them, or you, off
: try and imagine how upset I will be.

: REB

yeah, and since when do Finland, the UK and others push the UN to underwrite
their interventions, and hold themselves up to the rest of the world as a
shining example of freedom and respect for human rights?  We certainly deserve
the scrutiny of the rest of the world, we are affecting them in ways they
aren't affecting us or each other.  And Free Speech is a *human right* not an
American right.  You certainly have the right to disagree, with anything
anyone says, just as they have the right to say it in the first place.  So I
guess for the immediate future, you'll just have to go around pissed off.

mike burgett

burgett@mv.us.adobe.com	| "No man's life, liberty, or property is safe 
Views expressed herein  |  while the legislature is in session."
belong to the author.	|  -- Judge Gideon J. Tucker, 1866.


-- 
burgett@adobe.com	| "No man's life, liberty, or property is safe 
Views expressed herein  |  while the legislature is in session."
belong to the author.	|  -- Judge Gideon J. Tucker, 1866.
From: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Reply-To: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. - Telstar
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:41:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.165059.15776@mtek.com> bud@mtek.com (Bud Hovell) writes:
>pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek) writes:
>
>>Not exactly. It is now *legal* for drug enforcement personnel to seize
>>the assets of people whom they want to accuse of drug trafficking. This
>>seizure can take place *before* guilt or innocence is established, and
>>recovery of assets in the event that the case falls apart has proven
>>to be problematic. The courts have *not* been striking this down.
>
>Consider:
>
>It has been *legal* for *years* for IRS enforcement personnel to seize
>the assets of people whom they accuse of nonpayment of taxes owed. This
>seizure can take place *before* guilt or innocence is established, and
>recovery of assets in the event that the case falls apart has proven
>to be problematic. The courts have *not* been striking this down.
>
>Do you plan to write your congress-critter about *both* abuses of con-
>stitutional liberties?
>-- 


Are you suggesting that because the IRS has been doing this stuff,
I must: a) support the IRS in this behavior, and b) accept the idea
that, because the IRS has been doing it, it is now a valid precedent
for all law enforcement agencies?


As I recall, the Bill of Rights contains a provision regarding
'unreasonable searches and seizures'. I would categorize both the
IRS and DEA seizures as 'unreasonable'. Unfortunately, the Reagan/Bush
Supreme Court, led by that friend of individual liberty, William
Rehnquist, doesn't agree.


>________________________________________________________________
>bud@mtek.com ... uunet!m2xenix!mtek!bud ... bud@rigel.cs.pdx.edu


Don Pajerek

Standard disclaimers apply.
Xref: sparky alt.activism:19759 alt.politics.usa.misc:690 talk.politics.misc:65093
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Date: 22 Dec 92 13:01:07 GMT
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <BzM9Eo.Jvt@unix.amherst.edu>, pdchapin@unix (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:
>I suspect closer to six, since I expect it will be a long time before the
>Europo-wimps send enough people to make a difference.  (1500 from Germany.
>Give me a break.  There are football games that require more security than
>that.  30,000 are security.  3,000 are targets).

This readiness to use violence and force is also an important issue.

It's really chilling to hear Bush say essentially "I will use whatever
force is necessary" in connection with the LA riots.  (chilling from
the human viewpoint - from long-term political viewpoint discarding
the short-term suffering it might be a good idea since escalating the
conflict into a civil war might be one of the few ways of change).

//Jyrki
Xref: sparky alt.activism:19843 alt.conspiracy:13436 talk.abortion:53077 talk.rape:2991
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Rape After Rape After Rape
Date: 26 Dec 92 21:40:57 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

In article <72433@cup.portal.com> L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno) writes:
| 	Please explain why said article is "overcooked?"  A handful of
| stories from among thousands of rapes a bit too much to bear?

It's easy to see that the story is war propaganda.  _Only_
Muslim and Croatian women are raped.  _Only_ Serbians do the
raping, and under government orders, too.  The dateline is,
of course, Zagreb -- the capital of Croatia.

Atrocity stories can be believed only when they describe
both, or all sides, as committing the atrocities, or when
the perpetrators and the reporters are from the same side
(e.g. My Lai 4).  War consists largely of murder, arson,
rape, theft, and other forms of wanton destruction, and
no doubt the leaders of Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia should
be put on trial if possible, since they all contributed to
starting the present war.  But the idea that Serbians are 
somehow worse than other people is absurd.  They're just
equally as bad.
-- 

 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: bud@mtek.com (Bud Hovell)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Reply-To: bud@mtek.com
Organization: MTEK International, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 17:29:34 GMT

doctor1@cbnewse.cb.att.com (patrick.b.hailey) writes:

>There's a war going on out there.  It's a war on the American way of life.

Gee, you mean George Herbert Walter Bush et al may have been *right*??
Perish the thought!

>The Bill of Rights and Constitution are long gone.  With the advent of
>'mandatory minimum' sentencing, you can't even get justice from a jury
>of your peers. Your government is now your master, and your master says
>"work, pray, make babies (but don't enjoy it), and raise them FOR US".
>Everything else is quickly becoming illegal.

You sound a bit like another George, famous DWG from long ago:

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force! Like
fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
				              - George Washington

Isn't it strange how many people believe in the odd notion that govern-
ment grows without like growth of government abuse of its citizens?
Whatever in the world do people today believe motivated the Founders
to attempt limiting that growth to the barest minimum? And does *any-
one* believe that the rampant statist nightmare we see growing today
looks anything at all like their vision of "the pursuit of happiness"?

Government has, indeed, become a "fearful master" whose powers grow
daily with the silent consent of the governed. A majority of whom
continue to encourage others that government is the "answer". Or
that it should become so to solve some favored problem (which often
owes its origins to historical intervention by the self-same govern-
ment).

One has good reason to wonder what evidence causes them to believe
this dangerous fiction. Or how they can successfully continue to 
ignore the wholesale evidence to the contrary which has accumulated
over the entire breadth of human history.

Is there some kind of societal death wish at work, here and now?
-- 
________________________________________________________________
bud@mtek.com ... uunet!m2xenix!mtek!bud ... bud@rigel.cs.pdx.edu
MTEK International, Inc.             Throughput Technology Corp.
Walk the talk.
From: Harel Barzilai <harelb@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Date: 02 Jan 93 22:35 PST
Subject: Internet Connection to Congress
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1296500464:000:1589
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!harelb    Jan  2 22:35:00 1993


/* Written  2:01 pm  Jan  2, 1993 by rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu in igc:misc.activism. */
/* ---------- "Internet Connection to Congress" ---------- */
/** pn.announcemen: 50.0 **/
** Topic: Internet Connection to Congress **
** Written 10:38 pm  Jan  1, 1993 by peacenet in cdp:pn.announcemen **
~From: <peacenet>
~Subject: Internet Connection to Congress

/* Written 11:10 pm  Dec 30, 1992 by jlohrmann@igc.apc.org in igc:elections.usa */
~From: <jlohrmann>
~Comments:     Originally-From: loeb@ai.mit.edu (Eric Loeb)
~From: Lee Sakkas <URLS@MARISTC.BITNET>
~Subject:      News from Eric Loeb on Congress/Internet connectivity

This came this morning from Eric Loeb at MIT via one of the
Clinton servers.  It is definitely a step in the right direction
and I think he has the right idea on how we can utilize our
skills to good advantage to help promote and nurture it.
Lee Sakkas
--------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------

It turns out that all members of the House of Reps.
are going to have the option of accepting email over
an internet gateway to the House system as of January.

The new House system (ISIS) will be released then.  It
is in test now.

I would recommend that we all go out and volunteer to help
our local congressional district office with their
computers.  At some point we will also each need to take
some responsibility for getting a good lobbying effort
going within our districts, so that our congress-people
will know that the Internet connection is desired by the
constituents.


eric

** End of text from cdp:pn.announcemen **

Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Followup-To: alt.activism
Summary: US vs Soviet Union
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:45:59 GMT

In article <RIGG.92Dec22100430@osnome.che.wisc.edu>, rigg@osnome.che.wisc.edu (Tim Rigg) writes:
> 
> Check out the DARE programs.  A common feature of DARE presentations
> is the instructing of children to look for "signs of drug abuse" in
> their parents.
> 
> When I went to elementary school, they told us how lucky we were to
> live in America since the children in comunist countries were taught
> their first loyalty should be to the state.  My how times change...
> 

You'll find this kind of thing always loops around.  I thought
the same thing you did the time some kid who turned in his parents for
dope use was lauded by the same people who were horrified at
Soviet "child heros" who turned in their families to Stalin.


marc colten

Newsgroups: alt.activism
From: kd1hz@anomaly.sbs.com (Michael P. Deignan)
Subject: Re: OPIN:Slick Willy's Business Team
Organization: Small Business Systems, Incorporated, Smithfield, RI 02917
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1993 13:46:41 GMT

ww@nyxfer.UUCP writes:

Gee, guess the US Bolshevick Party presses are up and running again...

Even more scary... I'm actually supporting Clinton.... shivers...


>More important, however--and this really goes to the heart of 
>political representation--is that not one of the selections is 
>poor, not one is a worker. 

1. "Poor" individuals? Have you examined the family history of each
   appointee to see what their background was?

2. "Workers"? Have you examined the work history of each appointee to
   see that each one has consistently held a "top managerial position"?

Face it... "Poor"/"Workers" don't have the knowledge nor expertise needed
to fill a cabinent position (with some exceptions, I'm sure.) Subsequently,
picking a "worker" out of a 250 million citizen field which could do the
job well would be next to impossible.

Instead, its necessary to rely on past experience to make a determination
as to who is capable of doing the job. Not every cabinent member will get
extension on-the-job training like Bill will.


[unemployed people are all over the]
>country. Yet they're nowhere to be found in Clinton's 
>cabinet.

If an "unemployed person" where appointed to Clinton's cabinent, then
s/he would no longer be unemployed, would s/he?


>As Clinton has admitted, the capitalist economic crisis is not 
>bound to go away soon. 

Funny, the day after he was elected I started reading/hearing media
accounts on how "the economy is improving", after months of doom-n-gloom
predictions.


> NY Transfer News Service * All the News that Doesn't Fit

Reminds me of the slogan we used on a parody newspaper once: "All The News
That's Shit We'll Print".

MD
-- 
--  Michael P. Deignan                      / Sex is hereditary. If your 
--  Domain: mpd@anomaly.sbs.com            /  parents never had it, chances 
-- AT&TNet: +1 401 273 4669               /   are you won't either...
-- Telebit: +1 401 455 0347              /
Newsgroups: alt.activism
From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Subject: Re: Rape After Rape After Rape
Summary: Rape in war time
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:49:53 GMT

In article <Bzo2xG.5H0.2@cs.cmu.edu>, zitsky+@CS.CMU.EDU (Mark Ryan Miller) writes:
> |> ..and yes Graham, there HAS been a first hand witness on British TV, a Serbian
> |> soldier captured by the Bosnians and, as these are likely to be the only
> |> first hand witnesses you're likely to get to this sort of crime, you can either
> |> accept what he says, or dismiss it and go look for other accounts. In the
> |> case of the latter, you can ask the victims or those treating the victims.
> |> In the main the information has come from those treating the victims together
> |> with one or two victims themselves. The victims have been interviewed on
> |> BBC Radio 4 on a number of occasions.
> 
> |> The WCC has returned from Bosnia and their report is out today. It's yet
> |> another of a multitude of reports confirming the systematic rape of Bosnian
> |> Muslim women by Serbian troops.
> |> 
> |> Dave
> |> -- 
> 
> 
> I would like very much to find some "original" documentation of these problems
> occurring in Bosnia (rather than only hearing it third-hand).  Does anyone
> know where I could get a copy of this WCC report???
> 
> I think that many people tend not to believe something unless they can see the original source themselves.  It's hard enough to verify such claims without getting the information third-hand.
> 


What about the validity of the "original source".  I have no doubt
that women are being violated in every war zone on the planet - that
kind of thing never changes.  I just hope we are not subjected to another
"eyewitness" source like that young women who testified about the
murder of infants during the Kuwait invasion - and later turned out
to be the ambassador's daughter, talking about events that hadn't happened
at a place she hadn't been to - all orchestrated by lobbyists.


marc colten

Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr)
Subject: Re: please...no more LaRouche fascist crap!! ok?!
Organization: Neuroclinical Trials Center, University of Virginia
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 21:31:08 GMT

In article <C0A5tC.Gy2@news.cso.uiuc.edu> bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) writes:
>prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr) writes:
>
>>In article <C08G2E.GuB@news.cso.uiuc.edu> bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) writes:
>>>aforum@moose.uvm.edu (autonome forum) writes:
>>>
>>>>What more need be said???
>>>
>>>>Fight fascism!!!!
>>>>Beware of LaRouche fascist front-groups!!!
>>>
>>>Could you please substantiate your claim?
>
>>Larouche's conspiratorial, dishonest and larcenous tactics have already
>>landed him in jail.  I don't think much needs to be done to substantiate
>>ANYTHING negative about LL that hasn't already been done.  The guy's a
>>loony crook!
>
>But what makes you say he is a fascist?
>
>
>Brian Redman
>(bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu)
>"Ah yes, Armageddon. I remember it well."

I never SAID he was a fascist...  Just a loony crook.

	-Phil
-- 
(--)======================================================================(--)
 ||                                                                        ||
 ||  As evey cell in Chile will tell / The cries of the tortured men       ||
 ||  Remember Allende in the days before / Before the army came            ||
 ||  Please remember Victor Jarra / In the Santiago Stadium / Es verdad    ||
 ||              Those Washington Bullets Again!      --The Clash          ||
 ||                                                                        ||
(--)== prs9k@virginia.edu === Phil Scarr === Department of Neurosurgery ==(--)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: bud@mtek.com (Bud Hovell)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Reply-To: bud@mtek.com
Organization: MTEK International, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 17:38:21 GMT

niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:

>In article <1992Dec22.163530.15699@mtek.com> bud@mtek.com writes:
>>zitsky+@CS.CMU.EDU (Mark Ryan Miller) writes:

>>But any country can pass into law whatever it damn well pleases with-
>>out permission of any other country (with obvious exceptions).

>But not in regards to what happens in that country.  A country can't
>make it illegal for someone to do something in another country.

You may wish to consult the Israeli statute regarding prosecution
of war criminals who conducted their unspeakable acts not only in
Germany, but in Poland and other countries -- none of them Israel.

>>Noriega was not tried on the basis of a treaty violation, since none
>>had occurred.

>Then why did we invade Panama at all?

Based on the treaty, which provided the U.S. the right to defend the
Canal against hostile threats. In this case, Noriega's gang.

>So, again, the press got it wrong.  (1) They failed to report that this
>"drug trafficking" was known of and tolerated by Bush for a long time.

Alleged. Not proven.

>(2) They failed to report that the U.S. can't make it illegal to sell
>drugs in Panama.  (3) They failed to report that in this prosecution of

Your opinion, against which much evidence weighs, and upon which I
have already presented views in a posting subsequent.

>Noriega, they gave away so much amnesty in exchange for testimony that
>they lost on the deal.  (4) They failed to report that there is more

This is a reasonable point, and will be taken up on appeal, I imagine.
Do you equally object to Congress giving away immunity to get information?
Or telling poeple that such grant of immunity leaves them no basis for
claiming protection under the Fifth Amendment? Or do you only find this
a venal practice when resorted to by the Justice Department?

>"drug trafficking" now than there was before we destroyed the Panamanian
>government.  (5) They failed to report that we still haven't paid Panama

I don't know if this is factually true, but it may be. I think the question
is whether the "government" is, itself, the promoter and executioner 
(little play on words, I suppose) for facilitating the drug trade. And
in contravention to its own laws.

>back for the destruction we caused when we sent troops into Panama City.

This is a wrong that should be righted -- on that we certainly agree.
-- 
________________________________________________________________
bud@mtek.com ... uunet!m2xenix!mtek!bud ... bud@rigel.cs.pdx.edu
MTEK International, Inc.             Throughput Technology Corp.
Walk the talk.
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc