From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: NMR: truth or heresy?
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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 09:33:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.063150.13305@sol.UVic.CA> jroberts@sanjuan (John Roberts) writes:
>
>I've been watching the discussion regarding NMR, and have to admit that
>recent experience pushes me to say that I consider NMR as valid as NoNMR
>In three separate current games, I have:
> - watched a carefully prepared plan go completely wrong, because the power
>   with which I had a treaty went CD and was taken over by someone who
>   submitted contradictory orders almost immediately, without engaging
>   in diplomacy

I've seen this happen quite often.  People come in and want to save the
day for the other players by submitting orders IMMEDIATELY, get the game
going again and all that, and never mind that these orders may make no
sense in the context of what has gone before.

> - sat and waited, and waited, as we have been unable to finish a single
>   turn for five weeks

Yup.  Christmas break may well have done in the fast paced game some of us
like, but there *were* replacements out there.  They may just not have
liked the situation in the game and decided to stay out of it.  Five
weeks.  One game year.  Yawn.

> - got cruelly stabbed (a fine job, I must admit), and then found that the
>   players that reduced me to a fingerhold have disappeared, while I loyally
>   submit my dying moves [this is monkey on the Washington Judge - the three
>   late powers are E/R/A, with 6 or 7 units each; if and when they become
>   CD on Tue Jan 12 @ 23:30, someone *please* take over]

Yeah.  PLEASE take over.  I'm Italy and I'd sure like to see SOMETHING
happen.  Even if it means France gets taken over and I get pounded.

>I believe that either of the following two events should invalidate a
>game for scoring purposes:
> - in a NoNMR game, where an excessive number of replacements are made
>   (after all, in a face-to-face game replacements are rare), because
>   diplomacy degenerates

Going through and doing a summary of several Washington judge games
(which, being unmoderated in many cases, are already ineligible for EP, I
know, I know) will show that every player has been replaced in some games
and that some of the replacements are now getting replaced.  The fact that
these games are unmoderated has little to do with the insane pace of
replacements.

> - in an NMR game, where an excessive advantage is gained by some power(s)
>   as a result of a CD situation
>
>Of course, the question is: what is *excessive*?
>How about:
>  NoNMR - if any power is replaced more than twice, or the total number of
>  replacements during the game is greater than 10.
>  NMR - if any power gains more than 2 supply centres during the course of
>  the game as a result of CD.

"As a result of CD" is problematic.  How do you determine that?  Maybe the
power would have gained them anyway.  I think it should be based on number
of turns CD is in effect.  For example, if more than three move turns
include a CD power holding, don't count the game.  If more than one army
or fleet is disbanded as a result of a CD power being unable to retreat
it, don't count the game.

>Okay, flame away, but notice that these guidelines at least do not require
>some subjective evaluation by a GM or editor, and could theoretically be
>programmed into the Judge.

No flames.  I think that this discussion is useful and constructive.

          (__)                                           
          (oo)                                                     Joel Furr
   /-------\/                                     jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu
  / |     ||                                            Blacksburg, Virginia
 *  ||----||                                                             USA
    ^^    ^^