From: by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Those who can, do. Those who can't, post for those who can.
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:22:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Aug20.022210.11432
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


From: cosar@ulysses.cs.umn.edu (Ahmet Cosar) (we hope)
> >And you still have not addressed my point. Have Generalizations based
> >on race or religion have long been a staple of the 'Mutlu'/'Cosar'
> >posting house or not? Do you need proof? Do terms like 'Moronian',
> >'Greasy Pallikarya', or 'Fino Culture' imply otherwise?
> 
> I have addressed your baseless claims 'Sipa*'. You have miserably failed
> to provide even a single article from me which supports your idiotic
> claims and you have chosen to continue fabricating more and more
> 'funny pages.'

Oboy. Let us examine the evidence, shall we? There are two issues at
hand:

1.	Is there a 'Mutlu'/'Cosar' posting house that post(ed) under
	han@anadolu.michigan.com while in reality posts were made 
	from another machine / user id?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
[ED. NOTE: FACTS APPEARING IN PARAGRAPHS BELOW ARE ENCLOSED IN <<< FACT >>>]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In article <9208160043.A6010NW@anadolu.michigan.com>,
han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) writes: (KD = Karl Denninger)

KD>I'm interested (for academic reasons) in whether or not the article cited was:
KD>
KD>1)	From you, and vectored through Ahmet's machine for traffic control
KD>	or other reasons.
KD>
HBM> Right on the money.

So we have proof, coming from the Senior Poster in the 'Mutlu'/'Cosar'
posting house that indeed, <<< articles appearing to originate from
han@anadolu were actually sent/forwarded from you. >>> That, by itself,
is cool. But it does help establish the existence of the posting house
('you supply the articles and I'll post them').

So far, this is ethical. I have asked people to post before in cases
where I could not (machine down, news group not accessible). Of course I
always identified myself in the post as the original author but... An
interesting twist is what is described in alt.fan.john-palmer. According
to them, <<<John Palmer (sys admin of michigan.com and other online
systems) is nowhere to be found; the dialins do not answer, and that's
about it>>>.  This happened a week ago. Yet <<<last week was
particularily active at 'anadolu'>>>. (If you don't believe me, read
alt.fan.john-palmer).

This is now borderline ethical. Posting from a machine that is not on
the net any longer.... That's about as ethical as Sophie Miao,
Alexander the Great, or The Grand Vizier (sp?) posting anonymously.
<<<Interestingly enough last week a (Mutlu novice) netter mailed him
personal email (as well as to root@anadolu (like I said, novice)) and
she reports it BOUNCED! Strange, I've sent e-mail to Mutlu before
which was of course ignored/not received but never BOUNCED.>>> And,
<<<today's soc-culture-greek's crop of Mutlus all came from (surprise)
ddsw1.mcs.com. >>>

Bear with me if you can. Until now <<<I have shown that not only by
Hasan's own admissions YOU posted articles for him>>>, but there is
good evidence suggesting that for at least a week Mutlu's articles
were posted from a non existing machine / account (a'la Sophie Miao,
Alexander the Great, or The Grand Vizier, et. al).

A different twist, of course is, whether YOU helped write any of the
material which was proven to have been sent by you and not by Mutlu. To
start with, I don't care if you did or not. Personally, I doubt you
contributed significant amounts of text (the new insults were good,
though) because, alas, <<<your English is nowhere as good as Hasan's.>>>
When one writes 30 messages a day, one needs perfect command of the
language to be completely error-proof. And, believe me, (and that's a
complement to Hasan), his English is pretty good, Idioms and all. Hell,
I have yet to see him make a single (serious) error (must be all these
'IEEE' articles :-)) My guess is that there was some collaboration, but
not as much as people think.  After all, there is little original text
in the material the 'Mutlu'/'Cosar' posting house produces.

Then there is the issue of the few paragraphs I included in my last
message to you (which of course you did not refute (no permission?)).
Here they are again for your information. This is all theory,  mind you.
All I really have is article counts, Kute Kuotes (TM), and similar non
solid evidence. But theory makes reality once in a while. Could you help?

T*> Just as a side issue. <<<People have been keeping statistics about the
T*> daily number of posts originating from Hasan. We saw a lot of them
T*> coming from anadolu.michigan.com back a few months ago. Then the flood
T*> of Chicago happened, and right around that time anadolu went off the
T*> air, and hbm@ddsw1.mcs.com appeared. He then proceeded to come up to
T*> speed pretty quickly. Then something (I don't know what) happened and he
T*> switched to a digest form for a week or so going from 10-12 messages a
T*> day to maybe two or three. (Hey folks, remember these? were they
T*> hilarious or what?). Then anadolu was magically re-incarnated, with
T*> posting volumes back to previous levels. >>>
T*> 
T*> A few weeks ago, we noticed a few things: <<<first, a whole bunch of
T*> articles originating from anadolu were also posted from berkeley thru
T*> their anonymous (for those who think it is at least) mail to news
T*> posting gateway. A few messages were double and one or two even triple
T*> posted. >>>Even to a non-sophisticated net reader the difference was
T*> obvious, as the headers were different. 
T*> 
T*> <<<The duplicate posts disappeared, and all of a sudden Hasan (or whoever)
T*> accelerated the number, 'quality', and number of posts a day. I said
T*> before I have no direct access to Usenet's non tech groups but I kept
T*> watch thru various means). We saw the posts go from 10-12 a day to 20-30
T*> a day on occasion. By now all his postings came thru berkeley. >>> We also
T*> noticed that a fresh collection of Kute Kuotes (TM) was being  generated
T*> (available upon request). I kinda suspected multiple people writing
T*> articles as from the Kute Kuotes alone I could see different patterns of
T*> writing (easy to see/spot if one's used to it). 

Kindly address the issue above, if you could. Thank you.

2.	Has the 'Mutlu'/'Cosar' posting house used techniques such
        as generalizing based on, say, race (all XXX are YYYY)?

The answer to this one is even easier. Explain to me if you could
whether characterizations such as the ones below are denigrating
generalizations based on national origin, race, religion, etc:

    a. <<< 'Fino Culture' >>>

    b. <<< 'Clown-ians', 'Moron-ians', etc, labeling all Armenians as
       (and I quote) sub-serviant, untrustworthy, disloyal, ... >>>

    c. <<< 'Greasy Pallikarya' >>>

    d. <<< Characterization of anyone not agreeing with you/him as 
       anti-Turk, anti-Moslem, anti-*... >>>

    e. <<< Even worse, labeling anyone disagreeing with you/him
       as ASALA/ARF/AAA/A*, 'Criminals', etc. >>>

    f. <<< Inferences that just because one Greek person thought / 
       did /is-a XXX, all Greeks think / did / are YYY (i.e. Sampson,
       idiotic "konstantinopolis vs. instanbul" debates, etc). >>>

    g. <<<Even more idiotic inferences based on 1000 year old history
       (of the type "Greeks did XXXX to YYYY in 1012 AD, therefore
       today's Greeks are still anti-YYY").>>>

> That doesn't speak very highly of 'Sipa*,' does it?

How fortunate the 'Mutlu'/'Cosar' posting house is not able to influence
my life, then. Your opinion is thusly a non-sequiteur. Sorry, Charlie.

> A.Cosar 

We can only hope. 

> Disc space -- the final frontier!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Disclaimer: I speak for myself<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Do you also POST for yourself? 

So, Cosar, to summarize. <<<We have proof that Hasan used your account / 
machine to post news under his name. Hasan himself admitted doing that.
We have for a fact seen posts coming off anadolu.michigan.com when there
is good evidence to suggest that michigan.com is GONE. Since then, even
Hasan has switched to his alternate site (ddsw1). >>>

<<<We have also seen proof (and if you'd like I can email you a few
hundrend KB worth of text as proof) that the 'Mutlu'/'Cosar' posting
house has made lots and lots of denigrating generalizations towards
entire nations (Armenians, Greeks, Greek Cypriots come to mind). >>>

Your involvment in all this? you tell me. I'm a programmer, damn it,
not a detective. Again, personally I don't give a <bleep> as long as
the 'Mutlu'/'Cosar' ASCII diarrea is controlled. 

I hereby challenge you or any other member of the 'Mutlu'/'Cosar'
posting house to refute any of the claims made in this article, in 
particular the parts included as FACTS (i.e. between <<<< FACT >>>>). 

Those who can, do. Those who can not, post articles for those who can. 
							(anonymous)

PS: My apologies if my material is not inflammatory enough to justify
    'informing' overworked system administrators of public access systems
    that non-cool things have originated from one of their account holders.

PS: If you can't address issues, fair game. I'm not going to spend any
    more time on you unless you respond to any of the issues raised above.
    (i.e. save your 'Sipa*'s for those who can use them) At least Mutlu
    can come up with nice creative insults, deserving a laugh. You, NADA.

Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                       by403@freenet.cleveland.edu
OUZO POWER                                      (Not really in Cleveland)