From: ingraham@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (James Ingraham)
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
Subject: Re: Revolution
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:09:09 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Dec15.230739.1@oread.cc.ukans.edu> hippee@oread.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>In article <101788@netnews.upenn.edu>, ingraham@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (James Ingraham) writes:
> 
> 
>>>Justice has had a much longer and broader meaning than 
>>>just the protection of property which has been created through social 
>>>production and gives benefit to individuals.
>>>
>> 
>> Certainly.  And it has a HELL of a lot more meaning than shooting people 
>> because of their income brackets, too.
>> 
>Normally, in discussions, I'd agree with you.  But since we're discussing
>overthrow of an entire system of belief, conventional morality applies, if at
>all, very little.  One must start somewhere and the most logical place to 
>start is with those who have obviously benefitted from the preceeding eras of
>history.

Why is that logical?  Seems to me that the people that the logical place to
start is with the people who have caused the problems in the system, not those
who have strived to make it perfect.  And face it, the people standing on
the corner of Locust and 37th here who have a place to live and still beg for
money and go home every day count a huge wad of it are not doing anything
to make the world better.  Hell, I'm probably not doing anything for the
world by occaissionally giving people money.  And no, the Solomon Brothers
aren't doing a damn thing to help it either.  It's universal, not confined
to one class.  And as I pointed out when this whole thing started, how
do you seperate the doers from the takers?

>>Doesn't bother me if you cost the 'Net hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars
>>to make a bloody fool out of yourself.

>What do you means cost the net $$?  Please explain. 
 
Maybe that needed a ":)"  Every time you post it says, "Every time you post,
you cost the net hundreds, if not thousands of dollars... Are you sure you 
want to do this? [yn]"  Just a joke.

>> I'll tell you why not kill all the rich; you'll kill everyone.
>> The first thing
>> that's going to happen when you start killing rich people is that trains are
>> going to stop moving, planes won't go off the ground, trucks won't get gas,
>> cities won't get fed, the telecommunications net will fail, and everyone
>> in a moderately large city will starve to death within two weeks. 

>So because our system works poorly now (but it works) were all supposed to
>stand up and cheer. Well hooray for us!  Now that that's over, let's try to
>devise a system that works for us all not just for those who happen to own the
>railroads, planes, gas companies, and telecomm nets.

Didn't say we were supposed stand up and cheer, I just said that if you kill
all the rich, you kill everyone.  Doesn't mean the system is good, it just
means that you'll exterminate the race.  That's not any better.

>> The only 
>>people to survive will be the idiots who thought this whole damn thing up in 
>> the first place, because THEY'LL figure out that they can base a society on
>> death. 

>I don't remember saying "let's base a society on killing each other".  I said
>let's start somewhere even at the expense of some with Gucci bags!  Let us
>remember that all the time we're dallying around real people are already 
>dying. 
>Where's all the so-called-justice for them?

What justice is there in killing everyone with Gucci bags?  Do you honestly
believe that the "system" is out to get you all?  Why would they bother?
The people who are getting killed are not getting killed by the rich; Bill
Gates doesn't have time for that, working 19 hour days.  People are getting
killed by the underprivalleged.  That's not IBM's fault, and not AT&T's.
Tell me why the government or corporations are responsible for killing when
they're also responsible for making sure a vast number of people get fed.  You
want to destroy the whole country by taking out the providers.  Is it worth
the cost?  (You do NOT address this point thouroughly above.)

>> But let me tell you what would
>> REALLY solve this country's problems; kill everyone below the poverty line.
>> You eliminate poverty, most crime, most drug abuse, prison overcrowding,
>> most discontent with the system, and a lot of other problems.  THAT would 
>> make sense.

>Already tried.  Besides (see above)

No, we haven't already tried.  Trying to kill a class of people involves 
rounding up large amount of people and exterminating them, like in some
South American countries or South Afica or like Stalin's Russia.  That doesn't
happen here.

>> Does it seem to anyone else here that maybe, just
>> maybe, the problems aren't isolated to one group?  I mean, maybe there's not
>> one person or group to blame?  Is it possible that we're all in this mess
>> together, and have all done our fair share to contribute to it?
>
>It would appear that those who are to blame are those who have the POWER and
>RESOURCES to change the way that things are?  

What makes you think anyone does?  For all their efforts, no rich 
philanthropists have made a dent in the world's problems.  All the people
here at Penn in urban studies, trying to fix these cities and eliminate
homelessness and poverty, haven't come up with a way to do it.  You think that
just because people DON'T fix the problems that they have the ability to
and just don't want to.  What evidence do you have for that?  The people to
blame are those who have made the problems; the people who kill, the people who
steal, the people who live off others.  That's NOT confined to the rich or the
poor.

>Hasn't it ever made you wonder
>why anti-business politicians don't exist?  Get a clue!  It doesn't make any
>sense to blame those who couldn't change anything.  

Which includes the rich.  See above.

>It's nice sentiment to
>believe that we're all in this together (It sounds so apple pie).  It doesn't
>make sense, though, in a world where the only ones who are in it together are
>the who are keeping themselves on top!
>  

People on the bottom are trying to make it to the top.  Nothing wrong with 
that.  Most people who are poor are only discontent with the system because
they don't have a billion bucks.  Most of them want to get into the system.
Personally, I've benefited from the system and I'm STILL discontent.  But I'm
not going to give up being able to eat three square meals a day or the ability
to read books in my leisure time just because not every one can.  Reducing 
everyone to the lowest common denominator is not a solution.  Think it through.
(Study economics, too.)

>> Look at history; the Russian revolution, centered on overthrowing the rich
>> ruling class, led to Lenin (tolerable but hardly a saint) and Stalin 
>> (the devil incarnate).  In France, the revolution led to a lot of needless 
>> death.  In America, the rich LED the revolution.  

>Yes, let's look at history shall we?  Russia, semi-feudal country attempting 
>to instill communism.  Did it work? No.  Was there oppression?  Yes.  Does 
>that mean that this sort of oppression is necessary? no does your attempt to
>undercut any other ideology but your own work? no Why?  because you refuse to
>examine the truth of the world in which you live.  Your head is so cluttered
>with have you've been brought up believing that you can't see anything else. 
>Get out!  See what the real world is really like for someone who can't afford
>college!  Grow up! 

And what, pray tell, have I believed all my life?  I've believed that violent
revolution is a great idea.  I've believed in Emerson and Thoreau.  I've
believed in a mixture of Anton Lavey and the B'hai faith.  I've believed in
neuroscience and physics.  I have NOT believed that the rich are superior.
I have NOT been indoctrinated into a "work your balls off for money and
live off everyone who's stupid enough to trust you" world.  I believe in 
hard work.  I believe in creativity.  I believe in self-fulfillment.  I
believe that I exist.  You have no clue what I believe besides that.  So
don't force your opinions of what I believe onto me.  And I DO want to undercut
the ideas of this country, in some sense.  I belive in many of the foundations
of this country.  And I believe that our current system has failed us.

>> This country was founded by white,
>> upper-class males.  With strong ideals, great ideas, and a HUGE amount of
>> intelligence and knowledge. 

>So let's have a parade.  Gee Whiz, Wally.

>> Killing the only people who know how this world
>> works isn't going to help right the wrongs in the world.

>No but killing those who sponge off of it might certainly help.

That's not the confined to the rich.

>> Killing won't
>> solve anything.
 
>Neither will pretending that everything is hunky-dorey!

I don't.  Otherwise I wouldn't be on this group.  Nor would I have done
a 66 page research paper on subversive ideologies in heavy metal.  Nor would
I bother to defend the system, because I know damn well that if I we could
kill all we wanted to, and we don't.  (I use "we" losely.  Like I said before,
I'm not Bill Gates or Ross Perot.)

>> -James
>> University of Pennsylvania (That's right, I pay $25000 a year)
>> ingraham@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
>> 
>> "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal..."
 
>Guess again, friend!
>Hippee@oread.cc.ukans.edu

You know, you're right.  Not all men were created equal.  As Plato says, the 
problems in democracy stem from giving "equality to equals and non-equals 
alike."

You see the sig, but here's a few more quotes for you.

"Metal should stay underground.  That way it remains true." 
				-Mark Passio, lead singer for Insatanity.

"I know that I work for Time-Warner, one of the main purveyors of evil         
 in the universe.  The way I see it, sometimes you have to rot the             
 infrastructure from within." -Al Jourgensen

"Now that I know what is right
 I'll kill them all if I like
 I'm a time bomb inside
 No one listens to reason, it's too late
 And I'm ready to fight!" -Ministry, "So What"

"Who are you to say what's right?  Spit in your face, we will uprise!"
					-Sanctuary, "Termination Force"

"Why are we diseased?" -Fear of God, "Diseased"

"There are no uncensored programs." -Lethal, "Programmed"

"Control tightens as we sleep." -Warrior Soul, "In Conclusion"

"The cash flows out
 The drugs flow in
 The nations rage
 While the children sin
 
 Officials
 Addicted to dough
 The bankers grin
 But we all know

 They can't stop it
 'Cause they're lining their pockets." -Warrior Soul, "Blown Away"

"Sickening state of greed and hate
 Our world has gone astray
 Their right is wrong, they don't belong
 The just will have their day." -Powermad, "Return from Fear"

"Who is the man who won't even try
 Who won't fight his battles, afraid to die?
 Insatiable flesh keeps people sedated
 Violent aggression it's all related
 The animal kingdoms is thriving well
 If you think it's heaven, I think it's hell
 No trust in hidden power." -Holy Terror, "Mind Wars"

"We have to learn to change our ways." -Dead Orchestra, "Global Lobotomy"

"I won't follow your rules." -Sepultura, "Inner Self"

"Preshaping to what's required for slick commerciality.
 Ceonsored for subversion.
 Redundant machine.
 
 Don't let them mold your identity." -Napalm Death, "Distorting the Medium"

"Whoso would be a man must be a non-conformist." -Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

"[D]o not tell me, as a good man did today, of my obligation to put all poor
men in good situations.  Are they MY poor?" -Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

"That government is best which governs not at all." -Henry David Thoreau
						     "Civil Disobediance"

"All men recognize the right of revolution..." -Thoreau, "CD"

"...That when [the government] becomes destructive of these ends, it is the
right of the people to alter or abolish it." -Declaration of Independance

THAT'S what I "grew up" believing in.

Sorry for the length.  Had a lot to say.
Newsgroups: alt.society.civil-liberty