From: zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell)
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Reply-To: zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:32:39 GMT

In article <69250@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>My, Steve disproved my whole post. :-)
Oh, you're too kind! ;)
>
>In article <1992Sep28.192927.23673@linus.mitre.org> zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell) writes:
>|
>|In article <69165@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>|>Summary of Dr. D. James Kennedy's book "Why I Believe"
>|>
>|>[1]Why I Believe the Bible:
>
>|Jesus later predicted the (re)destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew. But
>|Matthew is based on the earlier Mark which makes no mention of this
>|prophecy. Scholars place the writing of Matthew after 70AD. Again,
>|it's easy to be a prophet after the fact.
>
>It is easy to be a critic anytime.
>
>Again, being written after the fact does not disqualify the writing.
>Whether the scholars can date the writing prior to AD 70 or not still
>does not make the events that occurred 30 years prior any less true.

The question is why dosen't Mark (possibly written before the destruction
of Jerusalem) have this prophecy while Matthew (written after the
destruction and clearly based on Mark or an earlier version of Mark)
does? Just wondering! :)

>|>[2] The Stones Cry Out
>|>And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if 
>|>these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately 
>|>cry out. Luke 19:40.
>|>
>|>[Examples of Biblical critics proven wrong by Archaeology]
>|
>|Disproving a detractor does not mean you've provided any proof
>|for your case.
>
>Correct, but it adds weight to the argument. How would you propose
>to prove it? If one can show a steady string of independently
>supported points, then you have a good case - you know you can
>have a mathematically `continuous' function that has a finite set
>of discontinuities.

I disagree. This is neither a proof of your claim nor a valid argument
for it. You wouldn't want me, in my debate with you, to list 1000
times where I've proved someone else wrong, would you? Unless you are
making the same arguments that have been proved wrong before, this
would be irrelevant!

>|>The Hittites were another favorite muse of the critics, for 
>|>surely they did not exist, as they were mentioned only in 
>|>the Bible and only in eight different chapters. Dr. Hugo 
>|>Winckler has now discovered forty Hittite cities. The 
>|>kingdom was so large that Egypt and Babylonia were like 
>|>tribes to the Hittites. [R.A. Torrey]
>|
>|The Hittites existed, but the Bible places them in the wrong time (too
>|early) and wrong place. But it is unwise to point to a people
>
>It used to be said that they didn't even exist and so the Bible surely
>had to be wrong, but now we know they exist. Why could it not be
>that the Bible is correct and the other literature/findings be wrong -
>it has been before?

This argument was closed about 1905 and everyone agrees the Hittites
existed. I've never denied they did, so stop arguing with me about 
it! :)

>|mentioned in the Bible who we have no current knowledge of and say that
>|our lack of information is evidence that the Bible is wrong! Any
>|historian will admit that our knowledge of those periods of history
>|will always be limited.
>
>Understood, as it pertains to human ability, but what about divine revelation?

Why ask me? I'm not a theist! :)

>|I don't think any historian dismisses the value of the Bible as a
>|historical document and many events in the Bible have been
>|independently confirmed. However, these confirmed events have shown
>|no signs of anything supernatural.
>|
>|One may wonder why there is no confirmation from other civilizations of
>|supernatural events such as the Sun stopping in Joshua.
>|
>|> [Discussion of Egyptian bricks]
>|
>|Some of the Bible is based on history. I don't think anyone denies
>|that.
>
>Some, but only what we have proved with some other evidence, I guess. :-)
>It seems the Bible is predisposed to be false, until something other
>supports it and then it is still an up hill battle.

This is true. I think most historians and archeologists generally
accept the Bible as history except they discount supernatural events as
either inaccurate or as having a more logical explanation. You
wouldn't want historians to go around accepting every myth and legend
as fact, without further proof, would you? I want them to remain
skeptical because history written by people with foregone conclusions
is generally bad history.

>|>the fall of the city of Jericho. 
>|
>|Yes, the city was conquered, several times in fact (parts of the older
>|walls had even collapsed). But nothing supernatural can be concluded.
>
>It was once said that for a city seemingly as large as Jericho that no
>group or person could walk around it seven times in one day, but the
>archeaologist have found that Jericho was a much smaller city and so
>could be circumferenced seven times in one day.

I never made this argument!

>|There is evidence against a global flood since there are archeological
>|sites from before the "time of the flood" that show no evidence of ever
>|being submerged (eg. the pyramids).
>
>Then it seems that the pyramids were build after the flood. Weren't the
>Hebrews working on building things way after the flood? Flood was in
>Genesis 9 and the Hebrews were building things for Pharoahs in Exodus.

Unless you're willing to shrink your flood, you are going to come in
conflict with Archeologists. If you want to move it back before the
pyramids and other archeological finds that have not been submerged, you
will probably have Abram born long before the first people lived in Ur.

>|>Nelson Glueck, the renowned 
>|>Jewish archaeologist, said, "It may be stated that no 
>|>archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical 
>|>reference."
>|
>|Archaeology has disagreed with the Bible in several places. On the
>
>Could you state some of the disagrement? And point out to if it
>is a matter of interpretation or lack of understanding/findings,
>as many of the above items have been.

OK, here is what I remember from reading "The Bible as History" by
Verner Keller:

 - The problems with a global flood I just mentioned.

 - Archeologists are almost certain that camels were not domesticated
   before Israel came to the promised land. The Bible states
   Abraham had camels (Gen 24:10). The first plausible use of
   camels is the Midianite invasion (Jud 6:5).

 - The city of Ai destroyed by Joshua (Josh 8:3) appears to have
   long been a ruin at the time of the destruction of the other
   Caananite cities (Jerico, etc.).

 - The destruction of several cities attributed to Joshua appears
   to have taken longer than the lifetime attributed to Joshua
   in the Bible.

 - The Bible appears to mention Hittites too early and in the
   wrong locations.

 - The Bible states that Pharoh Neco went against the King of 
   Assyria in II Kings 23:29. A fragment from Mesopotamia 
   translated in 1929 shows Neco went to help the King of Assyria. 
   NOTE: The NIV has correctly changed this passage.
   Could someone with an NIV Study Bible look this up. I'm
   interested if they used anything outside of Biblical sources
   to help with this passage.

>|other hand, how can Archaeology disprove a supernatural event to
>|someone with faith? Probably no amount of Archaeological evidence can
>|do that!
>|
>|>[8] Why I believe in Christ
>|>
>|>Dr. Kennedy states that the evidence for Christ is 
>|>overwhelming. For those who honest seek the truth there is 
>|>abundant evidence.
>|>
>|>Some say Jesus never really existed - he was a myth. 
>|>Consider this - Historian J. Gilchrist Lawson says: "The 
>|>legendary, or mythical, theory of Christ's existence is not 
>|>held by any one worthy of the name scholar. The evidences 
>|>of Christ existence are more than for any other event in 
>|>ancient history." 
>|
>|This is crap! J. GilCHRIST Lawson has demonstrated clearly by his
>|words that he has lost all objectivity and will say anything to support
>|is foredrawn conclusions. How can any historian say that there is more
>|evidence for Christ than any other ancient event! Is there more
>|evidence for Christ than for the Caesars? NO! How about more evidence
>|for Christ than the Pharaohs of Egypt? NO, we even have some of their
>|bodies! J. GilCHRIST Lawson's words do not contain truth but do
>
>Oh, you seemed to forget that Jesus rose from the dead in his immortal
>body and then ascended into heaven. We don't claim to have his body,
>but you have the Pharoah's bodies - what can you do with them?

They are about the best possible evidence that a person really existed.

>|illustrate an important truth. There are "historians" like Lawson who
>|are not above distorting history in order to prove their own beliefs.
>|This is precisely where most of the "evidence" for the historical Jesus
>|comes from.
>
>Most? What about the rest of it?

The rest of it is what you see in the Bible and other works rejected by
the church fathers. But I doubt that you would want to claim many of
these rejected works are genuine since they either contradict the
others or they don't fit Christian's views of Christ.

>|>One reason we know this is that the Bible 
>|>tells us, but more than that we have support from the 
>|>following secular historians and writers of antiquity: 
>|>Tacitus, the Roman historian; Suetonius; Pliny the younger; 
>|>Epictetus; Lucian; Aristides; Galenus; Lampridius; 
>|>DioCassius; Hinnerius; Libanius; Ammianus; Marcellinus; 
>|>Eunapius; Zosimus. 
>|
>|I wouldn't accept any statement from J. GilCHRIST Lawson without
>|checking first! His claim of "support" for the Jesus story may only be
>|confirmation of historical figures mentioned in the gospels (such as
>|Herod or Augustus Caesar!).
>
>Many of these are support for the historical figure and that is
>a fair amount of the argument - agian with this historical proof,
>what happened to Jesus' body? It seems to have disappeared like
>the Bible says.

Good joke! Trying to pass the lack of a body as evidence of Jesus.
Look, here's a tomb with no one is in it, must have been Jesus' tomb!

>|>Lucian,Celsus, Porphyry, Hierocles, and 
>|>Julian the Apostate have written whole books against 
>|>Christianity. 
>|
>|This you consider more proof?
>
>Again, proof of the historical existence of Jesus, for many tried
>to denounce the Way then, as they do now.

They are proof that a Christian religion existed. I don't think anyone
denies that.

>|>Pontius Pilate wrote of his activities with 
>|>Jesus - "he described Christ's miracles - he tells of Herod 
>|>delivering Jesus over to him and the crowd making a great 
>|>uproar to have Christ tried and so he [Pilate] ordered him 
>|>crucified, but first had him scourged, although he found 
>|>nothing against him. Much less he records that that day the 
>|>sun went dark and the moon turned as if to blood." [The 
>|>Ante-Nicene Fathers vol 8] 
>|
>|These letters of Pilate and Herod are traced back only to about the
>|sixth or seventh century. They are probably written by early
>|Christians. I don't think any real historians take them seriously and
>|I don't think even the Catholic Church has ever considered them 
>|genuine.
>
>Could you cite some real historians?

OK, but I don't think you will be happy about opening up this one! :)
They only show that early Christians were more than willing to make
up stories about Christ and pass them off as history.

I'm reading from "The Lost Books of the Bible" compiled by Dr. Frank
Crane.

In the introduction to "LETTERS OF HEROD AND PILATE" an account of their
origin is given:

 These letters occur in a Syriac MS., of the sixth or seventh
 century, the British Museum. Dr. Tischendorf states in his
 Apocalypses Apocryphae that he has a copy of the same in Greek 
 from a Paris MS., of which he says "scriptura satis differt, non
 item argumentum." [I don't speak Latin - does this mean they
 are virtually the same?] ...

Dr. Frank dosen't present any arguments for or against these works and
leaves you to judge for yourself. To help you decide if you want to
further investigate these letters, I'll give some of the highlights. I
assure you, you do not want to use any of these as evidence of Jesus.
But please, read them and judge for yourself!

The first letter is addressed "Herod to Pontius Pilate the Govenor of
Jerusalem". Herod's daughter has had her head cut off while playing on
a pool covered with ice. He's saying these things are happening
because he "Mocket the Christ" and because of the evil he did to John
the Baptist and for shedding much blood of children. Herod appears to
confuse himself with the other Herod here! Herod says "the judgments
of God are righteous" several times. His son is also dying and he has
the dropsy. His wife has become blind in her left eye, "because we
desired to blind the Eye of righteousness." ... "There is no peace to
doers of evil, saith the Lord." ... "the kingdom shall belong to you
Gentiles, for we the (chosen) people have mocked the Righteous One."
... "at the coming of Jesus Christ, vengeance shall overtake." Herod
ends that worms are issuing from his body and he is afraid of
judgement.

The second letter is addressed "Pilate to Herod the Tetrarch". This
letter describes the resurrection. His wife Procla goes and sees the
risen Jesus and he talks to her and tells her he is risen. Then Pilate
himself goes to see and, coming near, hears a voice from heaven and
trembling earth. Jesus sees him and they fall and prey for
forgiveness. Jesus raises his wife and other Romans and Pilate sees
the scars. Ends with sentences about the glory of the "Son of the Most
High". Finally there are some additional notes claiming that Justinus
(Roman writer) wrote about Christ, but the introduction to this
section says that Photius says Justus did not mention Christ.

The third letter is addressed "Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar the
Emperor". This is the shortest and least ridiculous of the lot.
Describes how everyone "agreed to crucify the ambassador of truth" and
"when he was hanged supernatural signs appeared, and in the judgment of
philosophers menaced the whole world with ruin." Ends with Pilate
lamenting "I did not strive with all my might to prevent the sale and
suffering of righteous blood, guiltless of every accusation, unjustly,
indeed, through the maliciousness of mend, and yet, as the Scriptures
interpret, to their own destruction."

The fourth letter is addressed "to the most potent, august, divine and
awful Augustus Caesar, [from] Pilate, the administrator of the Eastern
Province". This letter describes the many miracles by Jesus such as
raising the dead and healing. Then the crucifixion is described with
"sun obscured for half a day", moon tinged with blood, world of the
departed swallowed up, temple appears as a chasm in the earth, dead
rising again. Abraham, Isaac, Jacom, 12 patriarchs, Moses, Job listed
as rising. He himself sees many risen. Three hour earthquake, sound
from heaven, heaven becomes 7 times more luminous than on other days.
Storm comes containing men of lofty stature crying out "Jesus that was
crucified is risen again..." Many die in a bottomless chasm.

The fifth letter is addressed "To the most potent, august, dreadful,
and divine Augustus, [from] Pontius Pilate, administrator of the
Eastern Province". Very similar to the fourth letter. Lists Noah
among the risen. Countless host of angles saying "Glory to God..."

The next is "The Trial and Condemnation of Pilate". Caesar hears about
the terrible events following the crucifixion and orders Pilate
brought for trial. When Caesar says the name "Christ" all the gods in
the senate fell to dust on the ground. Ends with Pilate being beheaded
and an angel receiving his head.

The last is "The Death of Pilate". You've heard about the saintly
Pilate, now hear about the demonic Pilate! Tiberius Caesar is ill and
has heard of Jesus' healing powers and orders him brought. Too late,
Jesus is already crucified. Caesar orders Pilate brought. Portrait of
Jesus heals Tiberius. Pilate is condemned and kills himself. His body
is attached to a stone and sunk in the Tiber. But wicked spirits move
in the water and cause a storm. Body is removed to Vienne and sunk in
the Rhone but the same problem happens. Finally his body is sunk in a
pool in the mountains.

-- Steve
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:17500 alt.atheism:18262