From: dbsbanka@solomon.technet.sg (Teo Pit Koon)
Subject: Re: Conscious decision in a dream ?
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:10:32 GMT

Greetings and Peace  :-)-           

Scot Leibacher (sjl@TEFS1.acd.com) wrote:
>Stargazer - I would like to comment on a few of your questions/statements. Let 
>me preface my remarks by saying that I have been interested in obe's for about 3
>years and became interested as a result of reading material on life after 
>death (life, etc.) studies. At this point, it would seem to me to be true that
>obe's are a common element of the nde's (near death experiences). I am not 

	I would think not. In fact, the partitioning of the various
experiences into oobe, nde, ld etc. appears somewhat artificial to me.
In "REALITY", such a disparate approach does not reflect the inherent
unity and connectedness of these various types of experiences. I think they
are a result of various peoples approaching the Ultimate Reality from
various kinds of starting points, much like tentacles trying to reach
out and grab a greater piece of the whole jig-saw puzzle known as the
"Mysterious Unknown". I do recall a parable of a group of blind men
trying to describe the shape of an elephant and coming up with apparently
contradictory descriptions like the wall, a banana, a piece of rope, snake,
etc.  

>familiar yet with some of the lingo being used in this subject. In fact, our
>sight just picked up this subject in the last three days...so basically, I'm 
>pretty green in this area. 

	Not to worry about the lingua franca, it changes all the time :).

>     Now to my first comment, your logical assumptions in the above do not 
>quite cover all the bases. If the answer is eight, this does not preclude 
>the possibility that you are in DL or on Venus. In essence, we really don't 
>have a one-to-one correspondance between answer of the question and the 
>location you are at. Such a relationship would be helpful. 

	A good reality test would demand that such a relationship holds true.

>
>	I am kind of reminded of the brain teaser where a person has
>to ask only one question to each of three people in a village of liars and
>truth tellers. The problem is there is no way to differentiate between the
>liar and truth-sayer, just by physical appearance. It has to be done
>through a trick question...

>       The key to the "liars/truth-teller" puzzles that you give an example for
>above, is not really that a trick question is necessary but that a question 
>that will be answered one way by one type of individual and another way by 
>another type of individual (all the time) is employed. The real key is to then
>construct a question in such a way that regardless of the person's disposition
>(i.e. a liar or truth teller), you will get the answer you desire. 
>
>     One variation on this puzzle is that there is one town of liars. There
>is another town of truth tellers. The liars always lie, the truth tellers always
>tell the truth. You want to get to the town of truth-tellers. On your journey,
>you come to a Y in the road.  One branch takes you to the city of liars, the 
>other to the city of truth tellers. You do not know which branch is which. A
>person wanders by who is from one of the two cities. What is the one question
>you can ask them to know which branch to take. The usual answer is "which 
>branch takes me to your home city" or some variation.  This puzzle
>breaks down if the rules are changed a little and the liar does not HAVE to 
>lie every time he answers a question. So in essence, you have to be very
>careful of the conditions under which the question is asked. You must be able
>to guarantee a certain response no matter what the situation in each unique

	The matter of the truth-teller and liar puzzle is, I believe,
a well-known problem that has been thoroughly studied. What appears to
be evident from these puzzles is the fact that given the questions asked,
and the answers given by the natives, one can ALWAYS derive the correct
answer through the decision table methodology. What is most difficult to do
in any case, is the formulation of the question itself. That is the
tough part, as in RT.

>location (e.g. Reality, Dream Land, etc.). One would be ill advised to use a question
>for your Reality Check such as "Can I fly", since it may not be universally
>true even in DL that you can fly.  One almost needs to find a universal truth in
>Reality that is a universal falsity in DL. Fun, eh?

	Since it fails the "Universal truth" test, the flying question
cannot be a good RT. However, the asking of the question itself, might
serve to remind the experient of the circumstances surrounding him, and
prompt him to look for the so-called "inconsistencies" in the Reality.

>>
>>	Of course, I have heard about the simple RT, which goes something
>>like this: Pinch yourself, ask:" Am I really dreaming?" Personally, I do
>>not think this will work, because it seems so trivial and silly. If this
>>is the attitude in RL, then it would be carried over to DL, and the
>>RT would fall flat on itself. 
>>
>>	One observation: When we are in RL, we seem to be very, absolutely
>>sure of our sense of Reality, it never seems necessary to ask any kind of
>>MQ or perform any RT.
> 
>        I will go out on a limb and make an obvious statement, but not ALL
>of us are always so sure/aware/able-to-ascertain the difference. I guess 
>thats what keeps psychologists in business. 

	Most of us, I guess, most of the time, have no need to doubt the
Physical World Reality; after all, we are at the lowest end of the
evolutionary scale when it comes to the Earth plane. This is a compressed
school of learning, whose pedagogical paradigm consists of suffering,
pain, punishment and more suffering, so little wonder perhaps, that
we do not need to doubt the reality of it all, it is so PAINFULLY obvious
all around us :-)

	Just about the only time people wander out of the world of
fixation and got a glimpse of alternate reality is through some of
the less desirable means of alcohol, drug abuse etc. which produces
temporary "high"s at the expense of permanent brain damage.

	There is of course, the better approach and that is to go about
expanding our consciousness through means provided by meditation, oobe, ld
and the like.

The star gazer ***
CC
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