HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: dealin w/atheist
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:13:20 GMT
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development

MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu writes:

>One would think, from what was said earlier, that it would be possible for
>Mr. Omnipotence to make the "image" correct. Well, if you say he can't,
>then we might as well reduce his power down some from all-powerful.

I suppose he can make the image as correct as possible for human
perception.  But what if human senses are not enough to fully sense
God?  Then God has to either change our senses (which an omnipotent
God can do, of course) or work with what is there.

Because Christians assume God does the latter, the question becomes,
"Why won't God change our senses?"  Or, "Why didn't he make us able to
perceive him perfectly in the first place?"  Who knows?  But if there
is an omniptent God, as the Christians claim, he has evidently
subjected himself to some restraints in creating us and interacting
with us, possibly in order to allow humans to have free will.  If this
God allowed himself to get too pushy, humans would lose their freedom
of choice.

Of course, along with omnipotence, there's supposed to be
omnibenevolence.  So we have to assume that this God views free will
as good and important enough that preserving it forces him not to step
in with a mighty hand an rid the world of all bad things.

So it seems Christians believe in a God who is omnipotent and
omnibenevolent.  But the two seem to conflict.  Well, then, perhaps we
are not using one of these terms as the Christians define it.  Indeed,
the omnipotence of the Christian God is known not to include the
ability to do evil.  Perhaps it is important, then, to agree on
definitions of these 'omni-' words before getting too involved in 
a discussion of them.

Gregg Skinner

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
g-skinner@uiuc.edu    |    "Patriotism is slavery."  (Count Leo Tolstoy)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Essenes?
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:11:08 GMT
Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department

The Essenes were an extremely ascetic and mystical Jewish sect that
was present at the time of Christ but apparently disappeared after the
destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. They appear to have had a very well-
defined liturgy that was typified by allusions to arcane Names of God
and of the angelic host (they in fact had a very detailed angelogy, i.e.
they considered the structure and naming of the angelic hierarchy important
to their worship). I believe they were vegetarians, and did not participate
in the Temple sacrifices and the Jewish feasts. They were apocalyptic,
and were expecting Moshiach at the time of Christ.

I think there is speculation that John the Baptist had some association
with the sect. If I am not mistaken, there is speculation that the sect
became identified with the early Jewish Church, particularly that subset
of the primitive Church which continued to keep the Law.
_______________________________________________________________________________

steven stovall
stovall@exeter.cs.ucla.edu
(310) 825-7307
From: cs132102@cs.brown.edu (Simon Park)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christians Evangelizing Catholics et al(Was Re: Billy Graham
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:51:00 GMT
Organization: Brown Computer Science Dept.

In article <Apr.5.03.26.06.1992.6785@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>, dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson) writes:

|> Many people in the Bible also practiced ecumenicalism against God's
|> command including the Israelites when they worshiped the golden calf,
|> David when he lived with the Philistines, Solomon when he built temples
|> for his wives' gods, and others.  There is ample warning in both the
|> Old and the New testament from God Himself to separate from both the
|> world and apostasy.  I would humbly suggest prayerfully reading the
|> Bible, reading literature from organizations like Christians Evangelizing
|> Catholics or Bart Brewer's (a former RC priest) organization in San Diego,
|> and reading some history like Foxes Book of Martyrs and The Trail of Blood.
|> Get a good perspective of what a man made religion has done and is
|> doing in the world.

Mr. Hansen has suggested literature from Christians Evangelizing Catholics
and Bart Brewer for those who want to learn more about Catholicism. If you
couldn't tell from the names, these organizations are very anti-Catholic
and their literature reflects their views. For those who want a decidedly 
different point of view, I would suggest the book "Fundamentalism and 
Catholicism" by Keating which is published by St. Ignatius Press. This 
book is written to answer the criticisms from the evangelical Protestant 
groups who attack Catholicism. It relies much on the Bible to support its 
claims. Bart Brewer is discussed at length. 

Although a Catholic myself, I do not agree with everything Keating writes.
I feel he goes dangerously far in bashing non-Catholics. This book was not 
written with ecumenism in mind. However he has many valid points that must
be examined when one looks at Catholicism from an outside perspective. 

I would personnally recommend reading both of what Mr. Hansen suggests along
with "Fundamentalism and Catholicism" to get both sides of the story. If 
anyone has already read Keating's book, I invite comments. Please e-mail.

Simon Park
From: bertsche@llnl.gov (Kirk Bertsche)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: REQUEST: Greek alphabet font
Date: 9 Apr 92 08:30:11 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

In article <Apr.8.04.38.38.1992.28238@dumas.rutgers.edu> 
rlwinter@taco.ucdavis.edu (Richard Lee Winterstein) writes:
>   Can anyone recommend a good Greek font (for the Macintosh) which 
includes
> all the diacriticals (breathing marks, accents, etc.) -- note this rules 
out
> Symbol.  I would prefer TrueType but Type 1 is acceptable.  And as long 
as
> I'm wishing, I would prefer shareware or freeware to keep the cost down.

I use products from Linguist's Software and am very happy with them.  They 
have Laser Greek and Laser Hebrew ($99 each?), and less expensive 
bitmap-only versions.  They also sell various texts, and an 
interesting-sounding generic "search engine" (which I haven't tried) which 
is supposed to be able to perform rapid searches on any ASCII text file 
(eg. the NASB ASCII file available from Lockman Foundation).

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kirk Bertsche    (bertsche@llnl.gov)    (510) 422-8139
Center for Accelerator Mass Spectrometry
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
P.O. Box 808, L-397, Livermore, CA 94551
From: djn20624@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Danielson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Hopeful missionary
Date: 8 Apr 92 07:52:48 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Hi, I might be going to Europe to do short term missions over the summer
but I have to raise $3,300 if funds!  I haven't been very fruitfull in
this area here at the U of I.  Is there anyone out there that know of 
an organization that supports or will be willing to support short term
missionaries?  My job would include Bible distribution, visiting churches,
visiting prisons, and street ministering.  The countries selected would be 
what used to be East Gernamy and the New Independent Commonwealths (what
used to be USSR).
I would really apreciate prayers and references.

					God bless you.
					In Christ:
					Hopeful missionary.
From: rone@carina.usc.edu (Ron A. Echeverri)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: dealin w/atheist
Date: 13 Apr 92 06:00:41 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA

In article <Apr.9.23.36.58.1992.25239@dumas.rutgers.edu> ceb@dbrus.unify.com (Caroline E. Bryan) writes:
>
>God "allows" suffering and pain because He allows people just like you and
>me -- no! He allows you personally and me personally to act like real slime
>balls to the rest of humanity.  He also allows you and me to wise up, make
>amends, and work on employing our talents more productively.

Aren't you a little old to be believing in god? :-)
Seriously.... Every image of god brought up by any of the present religions
are incredibly inaccurate, as god's perfection is touted by them. If there WAS
a god, he'd be unperceivable by us mere and imperfect humans. So don't worry 
about it.

>Carrie		ceb@dbrus.unify.com	x6244
>
>|      A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.  -- Anon.  
	"... When you're trying to throw your arms around the world." -- U2
From: mgaylord@mailbox.syr.edu (Gaylord)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: What can Catholics it on Good Friday?
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:49:37 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY

In article <Apr.9.04.29.24.1992.18055@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> kvk@questor.sw.stratus.com (Ken Koellner) writes:
|Catholics arene't supposed to eat meat on Good Friday.
|
|What is considered meat?
|
|Beef, lamb, pork, etc are all meat.
|Fish isn't considered meat right?
|
|Is poultry (chicken, turkey) considered meat?
|
Poultry is considered meat, fish, peanutbutter and cheeze pizza are all ok.
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christian and Non-Christian
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:07:40 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

ward@vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul A.S. Ward) writes:

>>I had a question on 2 Corinthians 6.  It says that Christians should not be
>>yoked with unbelievers.  I am confused as I have several non-Christian
>>friends.
>>I think that in order to convert people, we need to be together with other 
>>people besides Christians.  Does this passage mean that we shouldn't do non-
>>Christian things with them?

>I don't know.  What's a non-Christian thing?  (For that matter, what is
>a Christian thing?)  While we are on the subject, what is a non-Christian
>friend (or even a Christian friend)?  I've never come across such things,
>so I was wondering if you, or any other net-persons who believe in the
>existence of such entities, could clarify the concept for me.

Um... a Christian friend is a friend who is a Christian. A Latvian
friend is a friend who is a Latvian. A tall friend is a friend who is
tall. I have some Christian friends. Is your question, "What is a Christian?"

A Christian is someone who accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and
saviour. The definition goes on a little longer, and mentions
things like believing in the Resurrection and so on, but the gist starts
there. I can't tell if your question was intended as flip, or as an attempt
to shake some preconceived notions; but the basic ideas here can be
grasped by my 4 year old daughter. Nothing very complex is bound up in
the idea of a "Christian friend."

I'm not sure what a "Christian thing" is, but a non-Christian thing (activity)
might be an activity that no sane Christian would ever contemplate doing.
A number of these occur to me, but to my horror I can think of one instance
or another where someone calling themselves a Christian has done one or more
of them. *I've* done some of them.

I think of 2Cor6:14 as a warning against *marrying* nonbelievers; in practice
is does seem to lead to problems, though I suppose exceptions have abounded.
--
These are only my opinions.  You should hear my convictions.
smayo@wang.com
From: glennd@starconn.com (Glenn Davis)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: All the canonized Saints?
Date: 15 Apr 92 07:44:34 GMT
Organization: Starnet-Public Access UNIX--Los Altos, CA  415-949-3133

I am looking for a list of ALL Saints (about 400 of them) canonized by the
Roman Catholic Church, including the date of canonization.
I need a recent list that includes St. Agnes of Bohemia (November 12, 1989). 
The above information comes from:

	Woodward, Kenneth L.
	Making Saints: How the Catholic Church Determines Who Becomes a
		Saint, Who Doesn't, and Why.
	Simon and Schuster. 1990.

But this book does not have a list, and the classic books (e.g. Butler's
"Lives of the Saints") do not have the date of canonization.

Thank you,
Glenn Davis
From: louns@cs.washington.edu (Michael Lounsbery)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Billy Graham carrying message from the Pope
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:08:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: dartagna.Apr.6.23.08.37.1992.13324
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle

dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson) writes:

> I absolutely detest the horrible Roman Catholic Church which leads so many
> to hell.

Speaking personally, I'd be delighted to spend eternity with the likes of
Francis of Assisi, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, and
Thomas Merton. If people like these, who are incontrovertibly followers of
the horrible Roman Catholic Church, are in hell, it can't be such a bad
place.

Michael Lounsbery
louns@cs.washington.edu

[While I also was upset by the original posting, I don't think it's
worth the bandwidth to post many more responses.  --clh]
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Dislike of Christianity
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:35:33 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

mayne@sun16.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne) writes:
>But you can compare the number of bad apples to the number of good
>apples, and compare the expected results of different doctrines based
>on an undertanding of human nature. On this score a body of doctrine
>which considers all others evil and infinitely harmful does not come
>out so well. Christianity and Islam are the only major religions which
>hold such doctrines, and not surprisingly have historically produced
>the worst behavior.

Christianity has produced *what*?!

You want to consult your history books. There are a number of very ugly
scenes in the history of Christians, true. It is also the religion that
teaches most strongly about the worth of the individual; does the most
"good works" for the poor, oppressed, and needy; provided
the basis for a great deal of good legal system; fostered an environment
where scientific progress was possible (yeah, I know, galileo and the scopes
trial are counterexamples, but it was not coincidence that the scientific
movement occured in the West); and in general has provided most of what
you consider good in life.

Let's not hear about "the worst behaviour." The worst behaviour has come
from historical religions that did things like child sacrifice. Get a sense of
perspective. 

>Bill Mayne
--
These are only my opinions.  You should hear my convictions.
smayo@wang.com
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Coptic Church and Monophysitism
Date: 11 Apr 92 03:21:02 GMT
Organization: none

In article <Apr.9.04.23.37.1992.17798@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> best@bucs2cs.bu.edu (Azer Bestavros) writes:

   Few days ago, an article that linked the Coptic Orthodox Church to
   Monophysitism was posted. I am a Coptic Christian and I would like to
   share with you the following message, which I sent to few friends of
   mine when this issue came up in a discussion.

Hi.  I posted the article that you are referring to.  I don't claim to
be an expert on the Coptic Orthodox Church.  If I offended you by
linking the Coptic Orthodox Church with monophysitism, I apologize.

What I said is pretty much the way it is presented in Catholic history
books, I think.  But, on the other hand, what you said is consistent
with the article that I read in the Wanderer, I think: there was
agreement between the Copts and that Catholics that there had been
some misunderstanding in the past.

The Catholic Church has always venerated the great figures of the
Alexandrian Church, as for example, St. Cyril.  As I think you noted,
the Alexandrian Church was a great intellectual center in the days of
the Fathers of the Church.

I personally would be interested in hearing more about the Coptic
Orthodox religion, if you would like to talk about it.  Email is fine
if you prefer.

I am particularly interested in things liturgical.  What liturgy do
you presently use?  Is it in a sacred language?

Also, are you familiar with the Western Fathers?  For example, St.
Augustine, St. Ambrose?  What does the Coptic Church think of these
figures?
From: dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Billy Graham carrying message from the Pope
Date: 9 Apr 92 08:06:16 GMT
Organization: Process Control and Instrumention, Amoco Corporation

In article <Apr.8.04.14.22.1992.27176@dumas.rutgers.edu> bernard@tourng.enet.dec.com (Dave Bernard) writes:

>|> dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson) writes:
>|> 
>|> > I absolutely detest the horrible Roman Catholic Church which leads so many
>|> > to hell.
>|> 

>        It's interesting that between the time Jesus died, and the first
>        Protestant (and we have to admit that Evangelical churches are
>        part of the Protestant tradition) churches were established, some
>        1500 years passed.  It seems like a cruel joke that the churches
>        that existed during that 1500 year period were only those of
>        the Catholic tradition, and that the Holy Spirit allowed this
>        travesty!

>        Incidentally, the Bible did come through the Catholic Church-
>        who else was there during that period?

>                Dave

There were many followers of the true faith that had nothing to do with
the Roman Church.  Quoting from The Trail of Blood by J. M. Carroll
" Let it be definitely remembered that when Constatine made his call for
the council, there were very many Christians (Baptists) and of the churches,
which declined to respond.  They wanted no marriage with the state, and no
centralized religious government, and no higher ecclesiastical government
of any kind, than the individual church.  These Christians (Baptists)
nor the churches ever at that time or later, entered the hierarchy of the
Catholic denomination."

The hand of persecution from the Roman Church fell upon the Paulicians,
Arnoldists, Henricians, Petro Brussians, Albigenses, Waldenses and Ana-
Baptists (among others).  It is estimated that 50 million people died
of persecution at the hands of the RCC during the Dark Ages.


=========================================================================
David L. Hanson       Internet --> dlhanson@nap.amoco.com
Amoco Corporation     X.400    --> A=attmail,P=amoco,S=Hanson,G=David,I=L
PO Box 3011, MC B-1   Phone    --> (708)420-4391
Naperville, IL 60566
Any opinions expressed are my own!   "More security = less security"
==========================================================================
From: skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Creation story question (was Re: dealin w/atheist)
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:10:42 GMT
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development

MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu writes:

>In Genesis 1:27, god creates man and woman simultaneously. In Genesis 2:7,
>another version is posed--man is created, and later, in 2:22, woman is
>created from man. This is only a part of the problem which is essentially
>two creation stories: one is chapter 1, and the other in chapter 2.
>Explain this if you would.

The explanation is literary.  The first creation episode seems to me
to be an overview of the entire creation.  In it we find the necessary
background for the second account, which concentrates on the more
specific details of the garden of Eden and the story of the first man
and woman.

>Also, as part of this, explain how Eve was
>subject to god's warning about the tree of knowledge, since she wasn't
>around to hear it...

As with any literary account, there is detail which is left out.
However, we can infer from the rest of the text that Eve was warned,
basically because the author does not record any protest of ignorance
from her.  Such ignorance would have been crucial to the tale.

_Genesis_ is a literary work, a story, and should be read accordingly.
The author of the story had no intention to fill it with the same
amount of detail as would a court stenographer, which would have been
impossible anyway since he was not an eyewitness.

Gregg Skinner
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
g-skinner@uiuc.edu    |    "Patriotism is slavery."  (Count Leo Tolstoy)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jon@cyclone.mitre.org (J. E. Shum)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: A not-often discussed heresy
Date: 9 Apr 92 08:26:09 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corp. McLean Va.

[Someone asked what was meant by biblioatry.  Richard Pitts responded
> Yes, we should study the scriptures, but studying w/o knowing the Jesus
> which it proclaims through out, is of no real profit.
I commented that biblioatry is often used in polemics as an accusation
against those who believe in inerrancy.  --clh]

Hmm...  Well it would seem to me a risky thing to identify anything as
a "heresy."  When I used the term "biliolatry" I did so advisedly.  So
far most of the responses I have seen have come to me in e-mail.  Most
are supportive of the idea that God should be worshipped rather than
the bible.  I don't think this is necessarily a challenge to the 
concept of biblical inerrancy.  While I don't hold that the bible as
we possess it is inerrant, I also don't think that holding the bible
as inerrant is necessarily bibliolatry either.  Bibliolatry is more
extreme and, in my own opinion, counterproductive in that it tends to
confuse the words used to describe the reality of God with the reality
itself.  

<jon@mitre.org>