From: mazzarel@hilbert.berkeley.edu (Ariel Mazzarelli)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.olympics,rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: BRAZIL SWEEPS THROUGH TO WIN THE GOLD
Date: 13 Aug 92 05:46:47 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.
NNTP-Posting-Host: hilbert.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug11.013147.17683@loral.CTS.COM> miller@loral.CTS.COM (BIG DAVE) writes:
>In article <166pgbINN13k@agate.berkeley.edu> mazzarel@spam.berkeley.edu (Ariel Mazzarelli) writes:
>>In article <l8b8b9INN341@pollux.usc.edu> cluck@pollux.usc.edu (Carlos L. Luck) writes:
>>> [stuff celebrating the great volleyball played by Brasil in the Olympics]
>>>
>>>We play a top class soccer (as Italy and Germany do),
>>>regardless of the outcome of a particular tournament. We haven't won
>>>a world cup since 1970, but everybody trembles (with legitimate reasons, and
>>>it would be foolish not to) when facing the guys with the Canary jersey. 
>>
>>Mira como tiemblo!! I don't know about OTHER countries, but if a player from
>>Argentina trembled at the thought of playing Brasil, well, he'd be sent to
>>the videotape room to watch the games in Italia '90 or Chile '91! Of course,
>>if he was STILL shaky, well, he'd probably play libero for Brasil. :) :)
>>
>>But then again, Argentina doesn't play top class soccer as Italy and Germany
>>and Brasil do. :)
>>
>>Ariel Mazzarelli
>
>Ariel Mazzarelli must be Argentinian (quite obvious, uh ??) Not that the usual
>arrogance is in any way disguised, but the ignorant bravado really shows !!
>I don't know of any Argentinian player that would admit being scared of any-
>thing; what he really feels is something else !!

As far as "bravado" is concerned, well, that is of course subjective. What is
foolhardy to you is sensible to someone else.  But as for ignorant... hehe...
once again, I only quote results: since Italia '82 (has it really been 10
years) the only significant victory that Brasil has over Argentina is 
Maracana '89, Copa America.  Since then, two 'important' games on neutral
territory, and the results are well-known.  Frankly, the only team that 
worried me in Italia '90 was Italia--and that turned out allright. Brasil
was stronger than expected, but as has become all too frequent lately, they
choked big time.  And so the old method worked (re: Italia '82)--let Brasil
come and miss a whole bunch of easy goals, and get them on a counterattack.
>
>I see that Ariel has some recollection of the "Italia '90" game. A game in 
>which the whole Argentinian team played 'nervous' and won it by a miracle; or
>is it that Ariel has already forgotten what that very famous player they have,
>and which they insist is as good as Pele, said: "The victory against Brazil
>was a miracle" ?? To show this match to scared Argentinian player would just
>send him off wondering if, as an Argentinian, he should play that bad !!

Heh. A miracle indeed. It's a miracle Diego was born in Argentina, and it's a
miracle that he can draw 4 defenders to him, leaving Caniggia alone with the
goalie.

Are any such miracles forthcoming from Brasil in the future?
>
>The fact IS that the Argentinians problably are as 'scared' (or shall we say ..
>anxious) as any OTHER country when they play Brazil. Add to that the fact that
>due to the rivalry they always show up to the game with a chip in their 
>shoulders to see if those 'black putos' can do anything about it. Well, guess
>just what the record books show ??
>
I guess I need to brush off those ol' record books. World Cups: Brasil 3,
Argentina 2. Copa America: Brasil 4 Argentina 12 or 13. Copa Libertadores:
Brasil < 10 Argentina > 15. ETc. It's not as one sided as you imply, and 
certainly not to Brasil's favor. 

As for the 'black putos' part, why pick on the blacks? 
Shouldn't the white Brasilians be just as 'puteables'?  All I know is that you
obviously harbor a lot of resentments, but hey, that's your prerogative.
I certainly have not called Brasilians such things, and the Argentinians I
know haven't either.  Maybe these are actually *your* words, and not mine?
>
>I guess that this arrogant and misguided attitude that the typical Argentinian
>soccer fan has for Brazil is somewhat to be expected. Afterall, for a people
>that considers themselves more 'European' than South American it must be really
>frustrating have to play so hard against a band of "mulatos" and come up with
>the short-end-of-the-stick most of the time (not to mention were the stick
>usually ends up) !!
>
Well, as for the 'most of the time' quote, any knowledgeable fan knows that
due to the export of players to Europe, neither Argentina nor Brasil is 
usually at full strength except for the big tournaments. As I have pointed
out above, there is no such dominance by Brasil on those occasions.  During 
the Pele era (is this when you grew up Dave?) there was indeed such 
dominance, but that was > 20 years ago.

So you keep statistics with the same skill that Dan Quayle spells. That's ok.
What's not Ok is for you to start drawing inferences about why an 
Argentinian would not tolerate a defeat against Brasil. Yes, without a Pele
around, I feel Argentina should beat Brasil. Gee, Pele is black. What does
that do to your theory? Hell, I don't even know why I'm answering this crap
anymore.

Why don't you log off, go meet some Argentinians, and ask them what they
think of Brasil? Why don't you expand your world a little bit, since you've
already made it all the way up to LA? That 'European' crap is *your* baggage,
not ours. We are what we are. And we are pretty varied.  Lots of Argentinians
have European ancestors--maybe a large majority. So do I for that matter.
So what? Do you have something against that? 

Lastly, I saw another post by the original poster (Carlos)
that addressed the real point of my article--that it is one thing to say that
an opponent respects Brasil, another to say "tremble."  If you allow yourself
the rhetorical latitude to do that, why not grant your adversary the same
privilege?  So if we're just being real straight here, without using irony,
sarcasm (and certainly those racial epithets), then I'll say that indeed,
Argentina respects Brasil, as much as any other opponent, and more than most.
But fear? Come on. You have to DOMINATE in order to inspire fear, and Brasil
hasn't done that for a long time.

Ariel Mazzarelli