HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: MIRacles No. 13
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:46:16 GMT

Lynn Gazis-Sax posted this only to s.c.yu. As this is data that
should be of interested to anyone who have engaged in the discussions
of Macedonia, real-life observations from Macedonia, I take the
freedom to repost this in s.c.greek.

Lynn Gazis-Sax (lgsax@igc.apc.org) writes:
)I've seen the propaganda about Alexander the Great in
)this newsgroup (also some denials by Macedonians that
)they have anything to do with Alexander the Great, in
)this same newsgroup).  In Skopje, I didn't encounter
)it.  This makes me suspect that it is the view of only
)a fringe element, and that in general Macedonians and
)the government of the Republic of Macedonia aren't
)trying to claim descent from Alexander the Great.
)
)The claims about an oppressed Macedonian minority in
)Greece are a more complicated issue.  This belief seems
)to be more widely held (judging from both the postings
)here and the conversations I had in Skopje); at the
)same time, I didn't hear the extreme statements on
)this matter in Skopje which I have seen on a few occasions
)on the net (the ones which sounded as if the poster was
)accusing Greece of being an occupier of its province
)of Macedonia - a minority among the Macedonian postings
)here, but one which understandably alarms the Greeks).
)On the whole, the people I met in Skopje seemed to be
)far more concerned about the oil shortage than about
)the status of any group of Greek citizens.
)
)Lynn Gazis-Sax
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
From: ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)
Subject: Re: Folks, we don't we ... change subjects of discussion?
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:15:20 GMT

In article: <Bw2G73.L5@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
 varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine) writes:

>Allow me to disagree on the main point you are raising here (but I do agree on
>some secondary points).  We shouldn't give up discussing national and/or
>political issues on this net.  This is an open forum where we can express our
>differences, find out where we agree, and clear our illusions created
>from the propagandas of our respective governments.  It is a forum where under
>optimum conditions we can enlighten each other.  
>Even under the worse conditions
>we don't run the danger to physically hurt each other!  I will agree
>with you that the form of the discussions here is far from perfect (very far
>indeed!)  Should we give up then?  I think not.  Do not pay much attention
>to the fanatics of any side.  Giving up the discussion is like giving up to
>those who with their messages are trying to cut the dialog.
>
>To be more specific about my previous message, I know where Mr. A. Fear stands.
>With my response I asked him some questions to clarify his positions.  They
>were clear questions and I expect clear answers.  By allowing people like
>Mr. Fear to perpetuate false impressions we prove the failure of this newsgroup.

Dear Varnavas,
my article was certainly not meant as an offense and I apologize if
it sounded like it... Your questions to the other netter 
were an example that I used; I am
trying to tell you this: don't expect them to be genuinly answered and 
lead anywhere! 

I agree with you; indeed, discussions of national issues cannot be completely
avoided on the net and it is most often such discussions that lead
to interesting exchange of arguments and knowledge (see for example
discussions between Andronicos and Luben on medieval Balkan history -
a topic I gladly participated in earlier - although even this discussion
is lately almost ... going out of hand as well).

All I am trying to say, however, is that we should try to keep a 
minimal "length" of threads, especially when discussing with people
who argue for the sport of the argument. I still believe, for example,
that it is a mistake to "expect an answer" from Andy Fear. You
see, there is a certain style of arguing that allows you to
discuss for ever, no matter what the topic or the truth is. Didn't you
notice it already  with this dude, as well as others - I better not
mention any more names.
The combination of the above attitude with this of certain greek netters
(I obviously don't include you there!) who keep posting daily rude and
[sorry to say so] rather fanatic arguments with no substance  has 
made scg truly horrible.
Just a few months ago it was still quite interesting... This deterioration
is what made me interfere with my comments. 

Best regards, once more 
L. Skartsis
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Time Criticized??
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:03:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bw6tHL.GoG
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

scgeoff@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (GEOFF ELLIOTT) writes:

>Or maybe Athens, Ohio should change it's name too??   What do you think??
>Anxiously awaiting your flames people.  Fire away!

 I said it once, I said it twice, I said it ... (God knows how many times).

 For me, the name "Republic of Slavic Macedonia", Slavomacedonian nationality,
 Slavomacedonian language e.t.c. is O.K. (to be more exact, is better from
 keeping the problem for ever).  This way, there is clear
 distinction between Macedonia, which is a province of Greece, and Slavic
 Macedonia, which would then be an independent state.  By doing this,
 there would be clear distinction of history, names, e.t.c.

 The Greek goverment has made the above proposal, but it was rejected by
 Skopje.

 You have to understand that there cannot be two Macedonias, two
 Macedonian histories e.t.c.  We cannot perpetuate this anomaly.

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:33:16 GMT

bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin) writes:

>In article <Oct07.161229.58452@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas) writes:
>>In article <1aumhlINNr4o@agate.berkeley.edu>, sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut)
>>writes:
>>Regarding enosis:
>>>of Greek Cypriots or the Greek Cypriot people. There were many more active
>>>supporters from the "motherland," like Grivas. And one should not forget
>>
>>George Grivas was a Cypriot from the village of Trikomo. You must be proud
>>that now that village is under Turkish occupation.

>Heck yes!!!

>We love it. 

>We have an electricity power plant there too! 

 O.K. Love it, and enjoy it.  But, close your mouth about the muslims
 in Bosnia. Do not expect to have the exclusiveness in doing ethnic cleansing.
 Turks are allowed to do any outrageous thing they want to do, and then they
 dare to say in public that they are enjoying it.

 Besime, I feel sorry for you.

>A Turkish Cypriot

 Panos Tamamids

 P.S.: I think that for 18 years you are getting free electricity from
       the bad Greek-Cypriots.  Well, I don't think they should be
       paying your electricity any longer, and hear your sarcasms.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: nkoudour@lonestar.utsa.edu (Nathan D. Koudouris)
Subject: re2:information on greece
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:35:59 GMT

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: MIRacles No. 13
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:37:11 GMT

A.T. Fear (cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk) writes in response to Panos Tamamidis:
>>Secondly, stop the bullshit about the constitution.  The Greek goverment
>>is refering to the part which says that 2/3 parliamentary majority is
>>adequate to change the borders of this republic.  They are refusing to
>>change this.  Do you know of any democratic state that has something like 
>>that in its constitution?
>
>Actually it seems to me that very few countries have an explicit
>statement against territorial expansion in their constitution at all.
>Since this was done because of Greek pressure I think Greece should be
>glad that its managed to interfere in the internal politics of another
>country to such a degree already and maybe consider doing the decent
>thing and recognise Macedonia.

If one adds the two together one realize that Macedonia seems to
have something in constitution which many countries are missing:
a mechanism for secession for a part of the country. Still a 2/3
majority vote in the parliament is not really the way to go, since
it might be a minority group who is in a majority where they live
who wants to secede.

As for constituational territorial claims, Macedonia have no such
claims, but at least two European states have such claims on
neighbouring nations. In both cases the claimed states have never-
theless recognized the claiming country and they have full diplomatic
relations. Yes, in one case both countries are even members of
a very important political and economical community. 
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas)
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1992 19:57:08 GMT
Organization: Colorado State U. Engineering College

In article <1b3858INNn40@agate.berkeley.edu>, sadi@physics3 (Sadi Turgut)
writes:
>
> Some numbers: In the 1960 census, the Greek Cypriots made up of 77%
>of the island. Since the 1950 "plebiscite" claimed 96% Greek Cypriots
>supported Enosis, this makes up only 74% of the island population. Well,

Only 74 percent? Wasn't that enough? Hatay was only 60 percent Turkish
and it was all right to unite itself with Turkey.

>arranged by the Greek Junta, to fasten the Enosis Process, and to
>increase the prestige of the Greek Junta at home. This act was perceived

Tell me then why the National Guard did not engage the invading troops
immediately. They knew 24 hours in advance that the Turkish troops were
coming. Tell me why Greece did not sent troops to Cyprus right after the
coup in case Turkey invaded.
--
Constantinos A. Caroutas

"It's easy to make mistakes when others will be held responsible."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 23:49:06 GMT

In article <718488614@locust.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:
>
>Constantinos Caroutas writes:
>
>>> It's based on the desire of the majority of the Cypriots to unite Cyprus
>>> with Greece. Don't forget that in 1939 Hatay that had a 60 percent Turkish
>>> population united itself with Turkey. The idea of enosis is contemporary
>>> to that event. Why couldn't Cyprus which had 80 percent Greek population
>>> unite itself with Greece?
>
>
>Sadi Turgut replies:
>
>> Sorry. For 18%, it meant exchange of colonizers for the worse.
>>Now, tell me what is wrong with a free and independent Cyprus?
>>Why was this "union" so important that, some people contributed
>>to its destruction. If there weren't this uncompromising attitude
>>of some Enosis supporters, the Republic of Cyprus could have worked.
>
>
>
>      That's not the point, Sadi.  There's nothing wrong with
>      an independent, multicultural Republic of Cyprus, but
>      when an overwhelming majority of the population favors
>      union with Greece, their wishes must be respected.
>      This is a principle of democracy.
>
>      However, if you support the separation of Cyprus into
>      two distinct states -- as it appears you do -- please
>      tell me what is your attitude in connection with the
>      desire of Kurds to secede from Turkey.

	Or Bosnians from Yougoslavia or ... But I garantee that this Sadi character
wil not answer logicaly. Actualy for a while I thought that he was Mutilu renamed but
the truth may be that he is actualy corsar. There is no skill in his arguing. He is very 
boring and uncreative with his headers. He is destined to faint away so if I were you I'd
let him do that. This newsgroup seems to have calmed down though were the odd arguments
are more contsructive. Mutilu would but in and provoke both sides. Sadi is just welcome
to most peoples kill files.
	So let him be.
		George


>
>-- Eduard Wiener
From: bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:38:37 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <Oct07.161229.58452@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas) writes:
>In article <1aumhlINNr4o@agate.berkeley.edu>, sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut)
>writes:
>Regarding enosis:
>>of Greek Cypriots or the Greek Cypriot people. There were many more active
>>supporters from the "motherland," like Grivas. And one should not forget
>
>George Grivas was a Cypriot from the village of Trikomo. You must be proud
>that now that village is under Turkish occupation.

Heck yes!!!

We love it. 

We have an electricity power plant there too! 


A Turkish Cypriot

>--
>Constantinos A. Caroutas
>
>"It's easy to make mistakes when others will be held responsible."
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9640 soc.culture.europe:8884
From: dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: SKOP(L)JE/MACEDONIA: WHAT'S IN A NAME
Date: 12 Oct 92 01:07:36 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <Bvz7JM.4x8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
 >   The strong opposition Greece has expressed over the name Macedonia being
 >adopted by Yugoslavia's southernmost breakaway republic is said to have raised
 > smiles in some sophisticated chancelleries.  There are many sort of smiles.
But these are no longer smiles.
 >   Early last month Greece broke off talks with a delegation that came down
 > from Skopje when it refused to discuss the issue over the name.
So apparently Greece does not want to talk about anything, except when the
name issue is settled.  Meanwhile blockading the country to exert force.
 >                                                                         Just
 > last month Skop(l)je circulated a draft banknote depicting the White Tower,
 > emblem of Thessaloniki.
This is slander.  Which official institution did circulate such a banknote?

 >            Creating a grammar worthy of a full-scale language from this
 > scramble of words became a cottage industry from Skop(l)jean intellectuals
 > who forged that mighty new vehicle of human expression now known as
 > Macedonian, which, we see now, even the Pope can communicate in.
Is that the reason why Greece does not recognize any document written in
that language?

What I think (yes think) is happening is that Greece is hoping that when
Serbia finishes off Bosnia-Hercegovina they will continue with Macedonia,
and in this way exterminate all Muslims in the Balkan.  Cynical?  Yes.
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: dik@cwi.nl
From: jd@slc3.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Autos o 'Hakan' einai kai poli malakas!
Date: 15 Oct 92 00:29:20 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia


	Apo to auti kai sto kill-file! Opou tha prosthesei tin xairekakia tou,
tin eirwnia tou kai amorfosia tou sta prosonta oswn ratsistwn anthellinwn
briskonte idi ekei...
									
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: SKOP(L)JE/MACEDONIA: WHAT'S IN A NAME
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 05:28:33 GMT

dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:

>What I think (yes think) is happening is that Greece is hoping that when
>Serbia finishes off Bosnia-Hercegovina they will continue with Macedonia,
>and in this way exterminate all Muslims in the Balkan.  Cynical?  Yes.

 Your imagination is far better than I initially thought.  When Turkey
 is closing her mouth about the condition of the Albanians in Skop(l)je,
 and Greece is calling for better respect of their rights, I think is
 at least ridiculous to even write such thoughts.  

 But such thoughts can exist, especially if people are reading the lies
 of Strobe Talbot (Time magazine).

 Personally, I have neither bad feelings, nor bad intensions about the
 Slavs of Skopje.  But you have to understand, that there can not exist
 two Macedonias at the same time.  Greeks are trying to secure the stability
 of the region.  A quick solution is not going to work.  You should have
 learned the lesson from the war in Bosnia.  We should not leave a time
 bomb in the region, and wait to explode after some time.

>dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland

 Bye,

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: An article about Macedonia in TIME (october 12, 1992)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 21:10:00 GMT
Keywords: time,macedonia,greece,bullying

cza@troy.uucp (C. Akgun) writes:

> The part that 
>I enjoyed the most is the part concering the 6000 strong mighty 
>Macedonian military which is well equipped with rifles and pistols.

 Perhaps, if you start thinking how well equiped the "Greek rebels" were 
 in 1821, comparing with the powerfull Ottoman empire, your smile may
 disapear.

 Have I spoilled your fun, reptile?

 Well, if I haven't, let me proceed.  How about the violation of the rights
 of the muslims of this state?  Altough they constitute 40% (or more) of the
 population, they are not allowed to have any kind of veto e.t.c.
 Does this ring you a bell, hypocrite?  You were not satisfied with the
 control that your 18% minority had in Cyprus.  But now that you have a
 chance to cause some trouble to Greece, you throw your poisson, as the
 reptiles usually do.

>C. Akgun

 Panos Tamamidis
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Albanians and Pseudo-Macedonia
Date: 13 Oct 92 09:51:40 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <1992Oct10.232134.10054@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
[..]
>Panos, you are not Greek. Just because you say are Greek doesn't
>prove anything. I know you cannot be Greek. Because how could a
>descender of such great men as Perikles, Sokrates, and Aristoteles
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>write so much crap as you do? You are not Greek, and I know it. If
>you believe you are Greek, it is only because you are brainwashed.

Perhaps Mr Tamamides is writing crap. But what I see up there
is crap, too (if not worse). What sort of an argument is this?
Efialtes (the one that betrayed the Greeks at Thermopylae) was
Greek too. The same about millions of Greeks that were simple
people caring about their country(ies) throughout the centuries
and they are not included in any history book.

On the other hand, a poor person (especially an enslaved one)
has only two things left: his dignity and hope. This is what
history represents for peoples with a long one (and not for
nations that are relative newcomers).

It is tiring to see this matter over and over again. The whole
issue has two dimensions: Emotional (above) and realistic.
Territorial claims are built on history mainly and
Greeks do not intend to give in, undermining their future in the
area, in their own land.

>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...

How do you know? Do you (normally) live there?

Panayotis

PS How about some more discriptions of Greek islands? Anybody
there has been at Skiathos or Kos recently? Impressions?



--
UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
JANET:     pef@uk.ac.qmw.dcs | Mile End Road            |  eperasen,
Voice:     +44 71 975 5220   | London E1 4NS            |  anthei kai
FAX:       +44 81 980 6533   |                          |  ferei kai
Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Albanians and Pseudo-Macedonia
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:46:42 GMT

dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:

>In article <Bvzu4s.Cz3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
> > dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:
> > 
> > >In article <BvzBAM.6Cv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
> > > >  I have said several times, that the name "Republic of Slavic Macedonia"
> > > >  is fine with me.
> > >What do you think the non-slavs would say to that (you mentioned 40%
> > >Albanians).
> >  So, you are worried about what the non-slavs are going to say, but on
> >  the other hand you think that Greeks should close their mouth and
> >  accept the use of their name Macedonia from some non-Greeks.
> > 
> >  Thank you very much for your understanding.
> > 
>Do you really think that the Albanian part of the population would accept to
>be called "Slavic Macedonians" as you suggest?  The situation is quite
>dissimilar to the Greek objection to the name of Macedonia.

  No.  It is quite similar.  They said they would like a name like "Illyria." 
  In any case, the problem is not whether the situation is similar or not.
  But why is it so hard for you to show some understanding about the Greek
  position?  You seem to be quite sensitive on what the other side says.

  Again, thank you for your understanding.

>dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland

  Bye,

  Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia