HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: PATTY@SDNET.BITNET (Patty Ericsson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: software & hardware
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:39:27 GMT
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              14 Nov 1992 10:47:46 -0600 from <hawisher@UIUC.EDU>

DSU began computer assisted writing in 1984 on an IBM mainframe - I forget
the exact machine.  We used the line editor XEDIT, which was a challenge.
I managed to get to know the systems analyst well, and nudged him into
implementing some improvements (I never asked where he got the software)
to make the editor a bit more writing friendly.  We had a dept. chair who
was really into programming, so we had several online programs as writing
aids:  a grammar and style checker, a grading program, and a couple other
very primitive programs in sentence combining.  Since the programmer was
handy and enthusiastic, we could modify the programs to fit our needs.  My
personal version of the grammar and style checker was not the norm!

I liked using the mainframe for the communication it allowed, and even
presented a couple papers extolling its virtues.  We enjoyed the networking
capabilities, and I was able to make them work very well, despite the
drawbacks of the environment. I hated the move to stand-alone  PC's.
What we gained in the word processing ease wasn't enough to make up for
the loss of communications.

I lobbied hard to get us networked and we ended up with a LAN that networks
the entire campus - all labs, all dorm labs, all offices, and dorm rooms (if
you are willing to pay).  In 1990, we finally returned to where we were in 1984
in terms of communication ability.

Patty Ericsson
From: KALER@UKANVM.BITNET (Ellen Redding Kaler)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Non-traditional students
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:20:14 GMT
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              12 Nov 1992 22:20:17 CST from <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Irv,
Never apologize for being a great teacher!
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:05:38 -0600
From:         JSTROH@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: computer-supported classroom management

The Community College of Denver has a Writing Center (40 station Mac) with one
of its three rooms evolving into a writing classroom.  While our situation is
different from the single-classroom model, our management system might be of
interest.

Three people work together to manage/coordinate the WC.  The WC coordinator is
a full-time faculty member with three-fifths of her time released to the WC.
Most of her time is spent training new tutors, managing our staff of 50, and
planning for further curriculum development.  I'm the Mac WC coordinator.  I'm
the only full-time WC staff member.  I was hired because my undergrad degree
is Writing and I programmed computers for 7 years.  In addition, I'm working on
a master's in teaching with emphasis on language and computer technology.  The
third member of our team is the instructional designer.  He spends part of his
time co-teaching with writing instructors to help them integrate computers and
their writing instruction.

The teachers who use our classroom have made a number of suggestions/requests:
1) Even teachers who are comfortable with computers need a lab assistant to
help students.  One person alone can't help 20+ people.
2) Teachers need support.  They need new ideas for activities.  They need
opportunities to talk with other teachers, either for ideas or to commiserate.
3) Teachers need time to learn to teach in a new environment, and they need
someone to advocate for them to have that time.  Most of our teachers continue
to lecture most of the time for the first 2-3 semesters, gradually shifting to
a workshop approach as they become more comfortable.

As a person who is neither just a technical nor a faculty type, but both, I
make decisions every day that could influence writing instruction.  My job is
to find the balance between the demands of two very different disciplines and
to help them come together as one.

Hope this helps a little.  Sorry this is so long.
Jeanne Stroh
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 18:58:42 -0500
From:         SULKES@UCBEH.BITNET
Subject:      Re: computer-supported classroom management

Mary, at Raymond Walters college, we have 3600 students
and a Mac lab for writing.  Like yours, 24 stations and
an instructor's computer.  Last year, the lab coordinator,
Mike Roos (a faculty member) received 3 hours of release time
and a full time assistant, who also tauht for us part time.
This year she is in graduate school so Mike gets 6 hours of
release time.  Tech support comes from the larger university
(we are an access branch of the university of Cincinnati.
Six hours without an assistant is pretty stressful.  Given
a choice, take the assistant.  It'll add years to your life.
Don't remember what other questions you had, but drop me
a line if you wish more info.  Best, Stan Sulkes.
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Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 16:30:26 EST
From:         Ann Green <USERTFSH@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      too much for me

app
I concur with Bill and Fred's request for moderation but would like to add
another twist.  The software I use allows me to archive only a limited
number of lines and I find much space taken up with quoting msgs that
people are responding to.  I appreciate having the context supplied in
this polylogue, but I wonder if the quotes could be drastically limited.
This may be a function of people's software, but I too beg for mercy,
mercy.  Ann/JCC
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:49:18 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Last (?) thoughts on lurking

Angela:
I appreciated your thoughts.  Now about being ignored:
just about everything I have ever written (oh, a small
percentage leaks out) and sent out comes back thanks,
but no thanks.  God knows why we keep writing.  (Well,
I know, but I'm not telling).
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:03:00 EST
From:         "JEFFREY R. GALIN" <WPWP@PITTVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

Tim and Ron,
        It is hard to denigh that written text and visual images both
are capable of carrying propositional content.  It is also difficult to
denigh that reading visual images is different from reading written
text.  Most of the students I have worked with have a much better grasp
of working critically with written texts than with images.  This became
quite clear to me when I taught a General writing sequence that asked
students to go to the Carnegie Museum (next door) and "read" a painting
of their choice.  We did work a bit with photographic images in class before
the field trip assignmen (which according to John Berger cannot
be read the same way as "original" paintings).  And we spent time
talking about the similarities and differences between reading images
and text.
        I found that students wanted to make similar claims for the two
media--that visual interpretation was similar to textual interp. because
both depended on personal perspective.  To some degree, the students
were right.  On the other hand, it was a great deal easier for me to
question textual cues than visual cues.  Students could be asked to be
more responsible to the written text than to the visual text.  Perhaps
this is due in part to my own lack of familiarity with the rules that govern
visual propositions, but it suggested to me that images represented a
challenge for me and the students.
        A rhetoric of images may exist, but I'd be surprised if it is
really comparable to written text unless it is imposed upon visual
If on the other hand we are talking about reproductions of visual
images, which for the most part we are dealing with in multimedia, words
and images are juxtaposed to each other in ways that contribute to
rhetocical propositions.  John Berger has a lot to say about such
representations of images.  He argues in _Ways of Seeing_  that it is "a
question of reproduction making it possible, even inevitable, that an
image will be used for many different puirposes and that the reproduced
image, unlike an original work, can lend itself to them all" (64).  When
me deploy images as part of a rhetorical gesture, we are using images in
differnt ways than the "painting" Tim described with the Pope.  Thus,
when students use images in conjunction with text, we need to ask
ourselves as teachers how we can be responsible to the texts we are
reading in order to follow the student's arguments.  We are not
evaluating an image a student might use as if it were an "original."  We
are evaluating them on the basis of how they extend or complicate the
rhetorical moves students are making with text.
jeff galin
galin@vms.cis.pitt.edu
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 16:56:00 CDT
From:         Mary OSullivan <MFOSULLI@MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      test

test
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:29:19 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Last (?) thoughts on lurking

From: David E. Schwalm
What in heaven's name keeps this discussion afloat?

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:31:00 CDT
From:         Sarah Hollywood <YKFSH@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject: RE: Hello? Hello? Is this thing on?

I received your message, but I am just a lurker.
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:23:32 EST
From:         Ann Green <USERTFSH@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      shower ideas

Angela, at last someone else who does her best thinking in the shower!  No
time for singing, too busy thinking.  Ann/JCC
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:30:53 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: getting a "C"

From Russ:
> the implications of accepting "student-centered" as a label for
> what I'm doing.  When my colleagues use the term, it has
> inalienable connotations of the soft, wet, warm sixties, of
> "progressive schools" from the anti- Dewey thirties and forties:
> the baggage it brings is definitely NOT WANTED ON THE VOYAGE.
> When people refer to my teaching as "student- centered," even
> when they mean it approvingly (they usually don't) it makes me
> itchy.
>      Seems to me me don't want so much a middle ground as to
> remap the territory: it's not a question of "student-" or
> "something-else" centered.  My teaching is dialogue-driven; not
> "centered" on anything.  Except maybe (I hope) learning.
>                                     -- Russ
Russ:
And then there are some of us (I hope) who do not shirk from been
located as progressive and student-centered.  Some good stuff
came out of Dewey and Dartmouth.  James Britton and his American
counterpart Moffett had a lot of good things to say.  I'd rather
vote for the concrete reality of my students than the abstraction
of "learning."  I don't see anything to be ashamed of in vouching
for Dewey and pards.  I just recently reread Experience  & Education.
It matches up to quite a few of the more recent texts I've read.

Okay:  what is androgogynous, David?

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
From: wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Getting a C
Date: 18 Nov 92 07:00:20 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University

In article <MBU-L%92111716500494@TTUVM1.BITNET> "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
>From: David E. Schwalm

>model. We need to look very carefully at it to see if the universities have
>simply sold out to the capitalists and are trying to produce willing workers
>or whether there is some better justification. (Might as well sell out to the
>capitalists; ain't no one left left.)
>
>-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
>___Arizona State University West
>___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
>___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500

	I once had a talk with an English prof and I sort of complained that
the problem with education was capitalism which made him laugh (He's a
marxist scholar, you see).
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:18:11 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Still defending reason

From: David E. Schwalm
What do most folks use as a way of distinguishing "reason" from "logic"? And
who can guess where this distinction, if there is one, might lead?

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
From: BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Re:Multimedia/In Defense of Reason
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:23:00 GMT
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Original_To:  BITNET%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"

I often _don't_ want to win arguments if winning arguments means that
i bring the other guy over. If Martin _ever_ agreed with me, then
where would I be?
John B
From: BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: RE: Re:Multimedia/In Defense of Reason
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:05:00 GMT
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Original_To:  BITNET%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"

I agree with Jim Crosswhite that no true instance of argument is
monological. One who enters into argument wishes the other party to
assent to their position, but they wish those persons to do so on
reasonable grounds and without any fatal sacrifice of integrity.
The argument that all persuasion reduces to force (is war by other means)
is self-refuting and cannot be seriously maintained by anyone who cares
to apply it to themselves in the same way that they apply it to others.

Jim also brings up an interesting notion of a continuum which connects
argument and force. I too can imagine a continuum of kinds of interaction
with others where one is still in a position to face the claims and grounds
of other persons in a worldly way despite the recognition that full persuasion
of that other is not likely: dealmaking, for instance, works this way, as do
other kinds of rule-bound hard bargaining that fall short of springing at
each others' throats. Even war, under some circumstances (the kind of war
that Clausewitz called "politics by other means") might not proceed
(at first, anyway) all the way to brute obliteration. (I would distinguish
between "war" as the hardest kind of hard bargaining, and "havoc" as the
descent into a kind of violence with no connection to worldly relations to
others. I also want to argue--this is more controversial--that "havoc" is the
signature disease not of interest-politics or even of power-politics but rather
of crusader politics, and that the more the motives which lead to war arise
from genuinely moral sources the more that war will tend towards "havoc.")

John B
From: YKFAC@TTACS.BITNET (Amanda Corcoran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: gateway 2000
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:22:00 GMT
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Locke--about Gateway 2000 machines. I recently bought one for my
own use and I'm really pleased with it. Great service, great
price. BUT I don't know about their networking abilities. I don't
see why not. .... Can anyone else be a little more useful?

Amanda Inskip Corcoran--TEXAS TECH
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:43:00 CST
From:         GOS@UHDBIT.BITNET
Subject:      Re: bibliographic plea

thanks, Eric.  I'll look it up.
Michael
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 13:47:50 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      non trads and a losing proposition

From: David E. Schwalm
I'm going back a few days to Ann Green's comment about nursing. Nursing is far
and away the most expensive program at ASU. And guess what? When anyone raises
the issue, the norsing folks simply nod at their accrediting agency--the group
that gets away with enforcing 1-4 and 1-10 faculty student ratios at various
points in the nursing curriculum. I wish sometimes we could get the general
accrediting bodies (e.g. North Central) to take writing instruction seriously.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
From: BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Still defending reason
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:18:00 GMT
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Original_To:  BITNET%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"

Actually, Jim, it is not that counterintuitive to argue that it is
sometimes unreasonable to be logical. We have all had the experience
of confidently drawing apodictically certain conclusions which turned
out to be wrong. I think it is the work of pathos and of ethos to protect
us from the unreasonable logic which would turn us into Houynhnhnhms.
John B
(p.s. I am very much enjoying your postings. Mostly, I suppose, on the
not quite rational grounds that I agree with what you say, mostly.)
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:04:22 EST
From:         "(Gary Beason)" <bubba@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason
              Nov 17, 92 8:55 pm

> of Kinneavy--if we think of the 1968 Kinn. as Kinn.-- understand
> that when they "create" categories, they are simply doing
> so for the sake of conversation, knowing that most (if not all)
> conversation is predicated on constructed categories.

This, in part, gets to some of the discussions about visuals and
images--are they necessarily propositional/categorical?  Being capable
of translation into propositions does not mean that all language is
propositional.  Mondrian's or Frank Stella's works do not strike me as
immediately propositional.  (And I realize I'm taking the discussion
to a different field with these examples.)

Also, I think that categories can be (and in fact do, if you accept
ideas about fuzzy sets, family resemblances, etc.) shift and adjust
their "boundaries," to some extent at least.


Further,
> one creates categories not as inclusive entities but as a way
> of talking about tendancies.  Certainly some discourses
> are more audience than reality centered (excuse the terms,
> Jim Crosswhite); editorials verses car manuals. The appearance
> of dualities are appearances only--perhaps because when one
> brings up terms, we dualize them, as we have been taught to
> dualize them.

Car manuals are "reality -centered"?  Bad ones are, I suppose . . . .
But why is talking about tendencies not inclusive?


-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
|
|   Gary Beason
|   Purdue University
|   bubba@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Organization: University of Alabama English Dept.
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:15:45 CDT
From:         Don Langham <DLANGHAM@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU>
Subject: Hello? Hello? Is this thing on?

I suspect that I've lost communication with MBU.  Everything on my
end of the net seems to be working fine (i.e., I'm receiving
Internet/Bitnet mail from other sources).  But I haven't received
from MBU since early this a.m.  What gives?  Technical problem?  Or
have we all suddenly become lurkers/wall flowers?

--Don Langham
  University of Alabama
  DLangham@English.as.ua.edu
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:18:32 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

>
> Irvin,
>
> Could you give the cite for Langer? Thanks. --Roni
>
Roni:
I was referring to some distinctions S. Langer makes in
Philosophy in a New Key.  I don't have the pages or the
book here.  Best parts were around pages 60 or so, as I
remember it.  Primary distinction is that presentational
logic is non-sequential, images are juxtaposed, spatially
arranged.  Presentational "language" is simultaneously
presented--as in a picture or dance.  Discursive logic
is sequential, following from the linear pattern of
text.  She describes a lot of interesting consequences of
these distinctions.  I think she writes quite a bit about
the same in Forms of Art.  Worth reading.
Irv

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
From: YKFAC@TTACS.BITNET (Amanda Corcoran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: "innovations"--pbs
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:45:00 GMT
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Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1"

FYI

Did anyone see the program INNOVATIONS on PBS at the weekend? It
was pretty interesting because it was about the latest technical
and computer ideas and how they'll affect our lives, teaching
etc.
I've managed to miss most of them, but FORTUNATELY for me,
there's one more in the series, and since this last show is about
technology and education, I thought you might like to know about
it.
The show's on Sunday night at either 7 or 8 pm central. I would
check your local friendly PBS station listings for your area.

The show might be kind of interesting, even if it merely
demonstrates what some of us are already doing (!). Anyway--just
thought you might like something to while away the Sunday nite
blahs.

Amanda Inskip Corcoran--Texas Tech
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:54:40 -0600
From:         tmmyers@IASTATE.EDU
Subject:      getting a "C"

judith tabron writes:
Though the SLAC's themselves are committed to, as you say, learning rather than
credentialling, I would question whether the majority of the _students_ are
committed to the same goal. I have only anecdotal evidence -- from professors
at my college, Bryn Mawr, and professors I've known at Haverford and Swarthmore
-- but I think that an increasing number of students come to these SLAC's with
 the goal of credentialling themselves rather than educating themselves.

I couldn't agree more.  Having graduated from a SLAC, I was amazed at times my
peers haggled with professors over adding a "+" to a grade so as to "boost"
the GPA.  Many of the people I knew used grades as the motivating force to
study.
A bit disheartening, but it is understandable.  Many of them, like me, were on
scholarship and had to maintain that ever important 3.4 (or whatever) to be
able to afford the priveledge of the credentialing the university had to offer.
In a way, I guess you could say that the idea of scholarships (at least ones
that require a certain GPA) foster a "grade hound" attitude.  I admit I have
been guilty of that from time to time.

tim myers
iowa state university
tmmyers@iastate.edu