HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 7 Sep 92 20:46:20 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:

#	Does anyone have any specs on the PMC/Eldarado Starfire
#	ammo? I've looked at it, and it looks like a typical wide
#	mouthed hollow point with internal fins of lead. It look
#	like it should expand rapidly. BTW the bullet weights are
#	more like nominal weights (ie 115 grain 9mm, 180 grain 10mm, etc)
#	rather than the Black Talon ammo which is all at the heavy end
#	of the bullet weight range.

	From memory, I belive the specs may have been aprox:
9mm		125 gr		1090
.38 +P		125 gr		1080
.40		180 gr		950
10mm		180 gr (?)	950 
.45		185 gr		950
.357		158 gr (?)	1200 (?)

	I don't know if the .45 and .357 are out yet.  And I can't recall
the specs on the .357 at all.

	The starfire design is a good one, imo.  The hollow goes deep
down towards the base of the bullet, and the star shape of the hole
promotes expansion more so than a round hole does.  I tried for this
effect a last year by mushing a philips head into normal hps.*

*Just playing, I would never want to use this.  Standard disclaimers, 
etc.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 16 Sep 92 00:31:02 GMT


Doug Gwyn writes:
#?  The .40S&W Black Talon factory load is just about ideal against a
#normally clothed human, and I assume the other calibers are similarly
#selected, since after all optimum suitability for the purpose is the
#whole marketing point.


With all due respect, the marketing point is to design the product
for "optimum suitability" based on the theory of performance in vogue
at the time. Currently the Facklerite "heavy bullet" school of
thought has the upper hand, so we have a Black Talon 9mm load with a
147 gr. JHP at 990 ft/s. When the "heavy bullet" theory is a bit
more thoroughly discredited, we might see a more appropriate 9mm
load.

Unless of course the Black Talon 147 gr 9mm load does perform 
significantly better than the lightweight JHPs in real shootings.
That would be a first for the 147.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:39:22 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Aug31.041043.17914@nuscc.nus.sg> swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr)) writes:
#IS it really possible to carry a resonable calibre (.38, .45, .357)
#handgun in your trouser pocket with reasonable concealment and
#safety?
#
#I've always wondered whether there would be an advantage in having
#a snub nosed revolver (bobbed hammer) carried there rather than in
#a holster. In a really desperate situation perhaps you could fire from
#within the pocket (hopefully missing the family jewels)? In addition,
#wouldn't reaching within a very baggy trouser pocket be a little more
#surruptitious than reaching for a conventional holster?
#
#What are the pros and cons of this method of carry?

The major disadvantage of pants pocket carry is that the damn gun
winds up turned the wrong way and tangled up with your keys and
change just when you need it most. Trying to quickly get your hand
in your pocket only to find yourself grasping the barrel of the 
weapon is a bummer. Unless you go around with gun in hand in pocket
all the time, it's much slower to bring to bear than a properly
speed holstered weapon.

As to weapon size, in the cargo pocket of a flight suit or combat
fatigue, you can stuff a .45 auto and a couple of spare mags. In
a tight pair of jeans, you'll be lucky to get one of those little
.22 cap pistols. I just stuff a .45 in my belt and cover it with
the shirt tail out. Nice big *flat* autos carry easily there.

Gary
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Modern muzzle loaders.
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:24:33 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

I've been looking at muzzle loaders and I ran
across the Modern Muzzle Loading T-5 Woodsman,
50 cal, for $185. That's the best price I've
ever seen for a 'modern' muzzle loader, and
is in fact at least $75 less than their
next more expensice model. Does anyone have
any experience with these rifles?

I would prefer to use 209 shotshell primers
rather than those silly #11 caps, do any of
the muzzle loaders use shotshell primers?
(other than the Mossberg add on barrel for their
500 series shotguns)

If you are going to use saboted pistol bullets,
is the 54 caliber any better than the 50?
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $650 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Police Story (was Re: Summary: Concealed Carry...)
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:24:51 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <9209141826.AA27193@outmail.microsoft.com> alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel) writes:
#
# 1. It's illegal.  An overzealous prosecutor will nail you for anything
#    from reckless endangerment to discharging a firearm within city
#    limits.
#
# 2. If you hit the perpetrator (or a bystander) while firing a warning
#    shot, you will go to prison.  Why?  Because the situation did not
#    justify a lethal response on your part.

Even if the situation *did* justify letahl force, your admission that
it was a warning shot could be taken as strong evidence that *you* did not
*believe* that lethal force was justified, but used it anyhow.

#
# 3. The perpetrator (or his estate) will be able to claim in court that
#    YOU escalated the conflict to the level of lethal force.  This gives
#    them a lot of advantages, because they can now claim that their
#    subsequent actions (returning fire, for example) were attempts at
#    justifiable self-defense against YOUR ATTACK.
#
# 4. Witnesses may report that you fired first, before the other person
#    attacked or harmed you.  You will appear to be the aggressor.
#
#In short: if you have enough time to fire a warning shot, you are not
#legally justified in shooting at all.
#

  5. Safetly firing a warning shot would require taking your eyes off the
     agressor.

  6. Your gun may break or jam when a shot has fired.   (Please don't try
     to convince me it can't happen - I've even seen a S&W 686 break firing
     standard loads).

  7. You reduce the number of rounds available to protect yourself with
     by 1 (20% with a Chief's Special or Centenial!!!).



Rob Boudrie
rboudrie@chpc.org
From: SAPX@CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Eastern block weapons
Date: 7 Sep 92 20:46:18 GMT

I'd like to put my 2 cents in to subjects that were brought up
over the weekend---John wanted to know what owners of Tokerevs
thought about their shooting iron and Ed was unsure of the
origins of the SKS--- First I'd say my Tokerev was the best
$120 I ever spent. All I do with it is plink at 25 yds and its
big fun. I've put over 2000 rounds thru it and it's never jam-
med, misfired or broke.Ammo is around 1000 for $100, brand
new 7.62 Chinese stuff and you bet it's corrosive but with a
chrome bore who cares!!! It's not fancy. Strictly meat and
potato"e"s gun.Oh, yea. The safety is for school girls---
Now, about the SKS. I read years ago that the AK47 was so
advanced that the Russians wanted a back-up in case it did'nt
work out. Their experience in fielding a semiauto during WW2
was anything but confidence building. The action of the SKS was
lifted from a successful anti-tank rifle that was tried and
true.Hence,the SKS--- It's not the same kind of "battle
rifle" as a FN49 or a Garand but I have no doubt it will do
 the trick under 300yds.


                        Steve
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What are some famous actor's guns
Date: 13 Sep 92 00:11:54 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, RTP, NC.

In article <1992Sep8.171117.13995@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> jlw@mtuxo.att.com (Joseph L Wood, Iii) writes:
[ ... ]
#I'm really glad that you're able to report that Donald Hamilton is alive
#and writing.
#
#I'm also sorry that my sentence above is not perfectly clear.  I meant to say
#that I have in my collection all but one (now two) in the Matt Helm series as
#well as several novels not in the Matt Helm series.  Some of these are:
#
#Line of Fire - referenced book where the protagonist is hired by a machine
#politician to take some pot shots at him for a sympathy move, but the
#politician gets hit.
#
#Night Walker - Korean War era spy novel set in Maryland countryside.
#
#Assassins Have Starry Eyes - Formerly Assignment Murder - Egghead Nuike
#scientist gets shot while on a hunting trip.  It wasn't an accident.  Set
#in New Mexico.
#
#The Steel Mirror - Man traveling west after WW II picks up girl on highway.
#Spy Stuff.
#
#Murder Twice Told - Two novelettes that I had but lost.
#
#Texas Fever - Western
#
#Iron Men and Silver Stars - Western Short Stories (?)
#
#The Mona Intercept - Modern Sea Pirates

To which I can add:

     Smoky Valley, ISBN 0-449-13677-9
     Mad River, ISBN 0-449-12977-2

Both westerns, both published (in paperback) by Fawcett.
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: States gun laws
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:51:07 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <HOLLEN.92Sep9084235@peg.megatek.UUCP>, megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck) writes:
# I am thinking of moving to another state.  Could any of you please
# comment on gun laws in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado,
# New Mexico, Arizona, Texas or Arkansas.  These are some of the
# possible places I am currently looking into.  Thanks.
# 
# Dion Hollenbeck       UUCP: {uunet, ucsd, sun}!megatek!hollen

Washington, Oregon, and Idaho are all non-discretionary CCW issuance
states.  Washington also issues to non-residents, so if you have to
pick whether to live in Oregon or Washington, or Idaho or Washington,
it makes sense to pick the non-WA state, and get a permit from
both.

Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Wyoming, and Arizona have RKBA provisions 
in their state constitutions that are clear and protective of an 
individual right to carry arms.  The courts in each have been
fairly protective of the right of open carry.

Idaho and New Mexico have both recently revised their RKBA provisions
to make it clear that they damn well mean it.

Texas and Arkansas both have RKBA provisions that are clearly
individual in nature, but the courts engaged in the most absurd
nonsense in the last century to justify disarming "the wrong
people" (blacks).

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: M16A2 barrel wearing out prematurely?
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:12:10 GMT

Hi folks,

I've heard that US Army M16A2 barrels are wearing out prematurely with
NATO SS109 (US M855) ammunition due to its 1x7 barrel twist.  I've also
heard that the 1x7 twist was originally designed to handle the M856
tracer round (which has longer bullet than the M855 round).  Can anyone
confirm this?

Can the 1x9 twist effectively handle the SS109 round?  What about heavier
bullets such as the 69-grainers?  Can the 1x9 stabilize these too?

What is the exact weight of the SS109?  I have seen 62-grain and read of
63-grain!

Thanks muchly,

-tt
From: breslau@watson.ibm.com (Art Breslau)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Volquartsen V-Comp
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:28:07 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Just put a Volquartsen V-comp on my Ruger MK-512. either my eyes are going fuzzy,	
or my grip is getting weak. But I swear my groups are larger with the comp. I shot	
it from a rest this A.M. with the comp and without. Yes the V-comp groups are
larger by about .75 inches at 15 yards. Am not shooting "target" grade ammo, just	
Winchester hi-vel L.R. so am comparing apples to apples. Anyone else experience
the same before I call Volquartsen? I like the extra weight and lessened rise
with the V-comp.
From: megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloading dies.  What do you think?
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:16:23 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

#>>>> On 7 Sep 92 21:32:21 GMT, mball@ac.dal.ca said:

Marty> I would like the council of netwisdom on the subject of
Marty> reloading dies.  Whose are good? Whose are over priced?
Marty> Are the Lee collet dies a good value or a waste of time?
Marty> What about bench rest dies would they require spending
Marty> $150 for a set of dies and a like amount on a Neil Jones
Marty> arbor press?
Marty> My target rifles are not great, Ruger 77-V's, but I want
Marty> to get the most out of them so I'm in the market for new
Marty> reloading dies.

Well, I took a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .223 from 1.5"
groups to under .5" groups by using benchrest hand dies.  You could
always use Wilson dies and Sinclair arbor press and get the whole set
of dies and press for less than $100 (I think).  Yes. the Neil Jones
dies are wonderful, but you won't get any more precision than that of
the Wilson's, you will only pay for convenience of being able to
easily set the bullet seating depth and the shoulder setback without a
dial caliper.  I lived with Wilson dies for about 3 years and they
were fine adn every bit as accurate as the Jones.  You cannot,
however set back the shoulder of the case with a Wilson neck sizer.
This will eventually cause your bolt not to close on your cases as you
reload them multiple times.  The only feature available in Jones, not
available in Wilson.  Wilson dies can be obtained from Sinclair's
(219)493-1858.


-- 
Dion Hollenbeck       UUCP: {uunet, ucsd, sun}!megatek!hollen
                      INTERNET:            hollen@megatek.com
Megatek Corporation  9645 Scranton Rd.  San Diego, Ca.  92121
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: NRA/SAF "MLDA" Phone Service
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:16:24 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <9209041851.AA08840@dg-rtp.dg.com> meyers@rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers) writes:
...
#Both NRA and the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) are MLDA customers.
#I'm interested in signing up, probably as an NRA affiliate.  (Gifts to
#SAF are tax deductible, so it would be to my advantage to make those
#directly to SAF instead of through an intermediary.)

On a totally unrelated note: why doesn't the NRA have tax exempt status?
Aren't they a non-profit organization?



-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: bashiti@newton.emba.uvm.edu (Abbas J Bashiti)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Norinco 1911
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:32 GMT
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility


     Well, I posted yesterday about my new toy, but haven't as yet gotten a 
response.  In any case, I actually got out to shoot it today.  Overall i'm 
quite favorable impressed.  The gun is quite accurate.  Firing from 
7 yards and from 50 ft. gave groups about what I wished for in my wildest 
dreams of a 1911.  3 of 5 shots touching and all in the black were quite the
norm (a 100 yd smallbore rifle target).  In slow fire it was quite easy to 
make groups far better then even my SIG P220 has been able to make.  My early
impression of the TIGHT fit of the barrel and its excellent quality were
not without warrant.  After firing about 50-60 rounds of very soft lead ammo
the barrel cleaned out very easily.  All I had to shoot were reloads of 200 gr.
LSWC's over 5.2 gr. of WW231 in various unsorted cases.  These groups 
impressed me far beyond anything I would expect.
     Problems?   Well, there had to be some.  The front sight is small, but
I like it.  Its got 3 dots, but the front is so small its nearly impossible
to see.  The gun jammed more then most .45's i've shot.  Of course the gun
probably doesn't even have 100 rounds through it yet and I was shooting ammo
notorious for feeding problems.  This lot of ammo hasn't jammed any of my other
.45 autos though.  
     Overall i'm amazed.  I never figured I would own a Chinese gun.  I 
certainly never thought i'd own a Chinese 1911.  I bought (traded actually) for
it on a whim.  The finish quality was amazingly high and it is obviously a 
tight gun.  I couldn't really get 25 yard groups with the gun since it shot
low.  It seemed to be perfectly sighted for 200 gr. LSWC's at 50 ft. though.
It shot exactly to point of aim.  The biggest dislike was the cheezy plastic
grips.  I'll look into pachy's and wood before I decide.  I also will have an
ambi put on (by a pro this time).  This gun is a keeper (and the way i've been
going through handguns these days that's high praise...).  Ah well, any 
comments?

later,
AJ
From: se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re-loads
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:25:03 GMT

This is probably a FAQ, but I haven't seen any FAQ file yet, so....

What's the deal on re-loads?  the salesman seemed eager to stock me up
on them for target shooting, but when I got home and read the booklet
for my Taurus 66 it said that USE OF RELOADS VOIDS THE WARRANTY.

Pretty strong stuff.

On a related note, the gun makers don't seem very 'up' on the use of +P
ammo either.  It seems that their attitude is 'well, use it if you must,
but you might be sorry...'

I know the rift between the manufacturers ideal and actual use is
wide... so what's the consensus among the shooters?

-Seth

__________________________________________________________________________
"We... have no use for adventures.  Nasty disturbing uncomfortable
things!  Make you late for dinner!"  -- B. Baggins 

Seth Eliot,            Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                       Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu            --------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb        
---------------------------------
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Reloading question...
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:54:21 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University


I have been using WW452AA for quite a while, but the stuff has
been canceled and I am beginning to use Super Target instead.  I
am also curious about Target Lite and the other WW powder in this
group (cannot recall the name).  Has anyone seen any data for
these powders other than the WW booklet?  I am interested in
using them in .32 H&R mag, .357 mag, .38 spl, .40 S&W, 10mm, 9mm,
.45 acp, .45 LC and .44 mag with emphasis on the first 4 for
right now. 

I have found that my contender "likes" the .32 mag loaded with
the .32 acp FMJ 71 gr. bullet, a CCI 500 (regular) primer and 5.5
gr of WW452AA.  I am wondering what an equivalent load in the new
powders might be.

I like the Speer 100 gr .32 bullet, but am uncertain about
reloading data.  When I wrote them, they replied that I should
use the data in their manual for the 100 gr. "plinker".  This
doesn't seem quite right, since the new bullet is .312 diameter
and the plinker is, of course, a .308.  I suspect they are
correct WRT the Dan Wesson revolvers we use, since they have a
~.312 bore, but the Contender I also use is supposed to have a
.308 bore.

I have also had a problem in the .32 in which I end up with
"round" nose hollowpoints that start out with "flat" points.  Is
this an indication that the resizing die is too tight, or do I
need a different shapped gizmo in the seating die {cannot recall
the name right now ;-{)  }?
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: mball@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Reloading dies.  What do you think?
Date: 7 Sep 92 21:32:21 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

I would like the council of netwisdom on the subject of
reloading dies.  Whose are good? Whose are over priced?
Are the Lee collet dies a good value or a waste of time?
What about bench rest dies would they require spending
$150 for a set of dies and a like amount on a Neil Jones
arbor press?
My target rifles are not great, Ruger 77-V's, but I want
to get the most out of them so I'm in the market for new
reloading dies.
All opinions welcome.
Marty
MBALL@AC.DAL.CA
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ring as hand gun safety?
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:16:51 GMT
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.

I just heard from a friend that there exists a handgun that requires the  
operator to wear a ring in order to fire it.  Sounds like an advantage in a  
situation where the gun might get taken from you.  Also where there are kids in  
the house.

Jim
e-mail to jmd@handheld.com
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Recommendation for bullet-proof vest wanted.
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:16:08 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <9209011540.AA25225@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov (Minh Lang) writes:
#Hi, I'm looking for info/comment/recommendation/source for a bullet-proof
#vest. It should be thin enough to be worn under normal clothing,
#should be able to stop handguns bullet up to .357 magnum and knife.
#I would really appreciate any personal experience you have and
#I would like to get some recommendations for a manufacturer.
#Thank you very much.

	Forget about the knife proof bit.  I have knives that will punch 
	through any soft body armor.  I know this because I have done it.
	And the knives are nothing extraordinary, just good and sharp.

	-Andy V.