From: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: casteist seggregation and casteist suppression
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:58:03 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <l8u881INN4bj@nunki.usc.edu> nraju@usc.edu (Narayanan Raju) writes:
>
>
>The question is who could have suppressed the Shudras the most?
>	-- those who had money power? or
>	-- those who had administrative power? or
>	-- those who had a good share of relegious power?

A more relevant question is who devised such a hierarchical system, and 
propagated it in the name of religion ?

>
>
>Today, everybody is blaming the Brahmins alone for the casteist seggregation
>as well as the suppression of the Shudras. Nobody talks about the role of
>Kshathriyas or Vysyas.  

First of all, there are no Kshatriyas and Vaisyas in TN.  This reminds me of
some events during the British rule.  The caste system, whoever designed it,
was a boon to the foreign rulers, especially the British, who did not waste
anytime in taking full advantage of it.  They made the "Manu's code" 
compulsary in Indian schools. (Remember Manu's code says "Pour molten lead into
sudras' ears if they listen to the the Vedas being recited")  The Britishers
employed a group of Bramins to reclassify the TN castes (jati) into the four
varnas.  The Bramins promptly classified the VeLaaLa, caste into the 'sudra'
varna.  This led to some protests by the veLaaLa caste and in 1916,
a group of non-Bramins banded together and issued a Non-Bramin Manifesto
(Printed in Hindu 20, December 1916).  The statement concentrated on
economic grievences and it stressed the benefits that had come to Bramins
under British rule.

One has to blame the ultimate cause of caste system, which is Brahmanism,
the shameful subset of Hinduism.
 
>
>1)  Casteist seggregation
>
>
>	The casteist seggregation came into existence because of the
>great diversity that was present in ancient India. Let's go back
>to ancient times  to understand the casteist segregation. First let's
>look at the elements of diversity:
>	-- racial diversity(India is the unique land where almost every race
>				met. In other regions where races met there
>				was slavery, decimation and colonialization.
>				In the Hindu society too, initially, these three
> 				evils were present. Later, these three evils
>				surfaced when the Muslims arrived and again,
>				when the British arrived)

Who enslaved whom ?  Your argument is very vague.
>
>	-- religious diversity( Various communities have their own gods,
>				their own philosophy, their own set of
>				rituals. However, most Hindu communities weren't
>				averse to accepting other gods and religions;
>				cosequently, a network of all these gods, 
>				philosophies and rituals evolved and is called
>				as Hinduism)
>
>	-- cultural diversity  and
>
>	-- linguistic diversity.
>
>This diversity, amplified by the lack of education and lack of communication,
>led to the casteist seggregation. Although the casteist seggregation is bad,
>it is better than slavery, decimation and colonialization. (the casteist
>suppression meted out to Shudras is dealt with in the next section. Here I'm 
>only looking at the seggragation in the top three varnas)
>This seggregation was not forced on any group; every-group was satisfied
>with keeping to themselves. Hence, no particular group can be blamed for this.

Are you seriously saying that the caste system was not forced on anyone ?
How about banning the use of streets, temples, wells, ?  Were the lower
caste happy with these.  Caste system is maintained by instilling fear,
both in this world and eternal damnation.  Krishna says this in the 
BG. (Read my article on EVR earlier).
>
>
>
>And despite this there has been a geat deal of mixing
>2)  Mixing

Of course mixing took place  during the period of the Buddhist and other
rational schools of thoughts.  Adi Sankara and his followers only 
made the caste system rigid and interpolated almost all of the Hindu 
scriptures to place the Bramins in a higher position. (See my posting
titled "Gita as it was by Sinha")

>	-- On the inter-religious front,
>				As explained earlier mixing has been so great
>				that a network known as Hinduism has evolved.
>				Let's look at the backgroud of the Trinity;
>				Brahma is a Brahmin (rarely worshipped).
>				Shiva is a Pariah 
>				Vishnu is a Kshathriya.

I see gods too have castes. I didn't know that !!!

>
>3) Casteist Suppression
>
>	Almost all of the suppression was meted out to the Shudras. Should
>the responsibility for this injustice be placed on Brahmins alone or the entire
>society? People are trying to project as though the supposedly Aryanic works
>of Gita and Manu Dharma Shatra brought in this varna system.(Note that Krishna
>himself was dark and to regard him as an Aryan is ridiculous).

The responsibility lies with those who designed the caste system and those
who are actively opposing the destruction of it.  There is no point in trying
to change those who simply following the rules of the "hindu religion".


>	How many Tamils care to even go through the Gita? I doubt even a percent
>of Tamils(including Brahminical Tamils) would have gone through that. To blame
>seggregation and suppression on Gita doesn't sound realistic. The fact is
>casteist seggregation and suppression were present in the society even
>before the Gita came into existence. However, Gita might have helped propagate 
>it. As to Manu's laws, how many Tamil kings
>followed these laws? Did they accept that the Aryan culture was better than 
>their own Dravidian culture? Why did they not give preference to their own
>people? Did the kings pass the laws or the Brahmins did?

Fact is that, these scriptures supported the existence of the caste system 
by saying that this system was designed by God himself (See BG).  If God
designed the caste system, why is not present in other socities (Don't give
me the crap that varna means caste based not on birth but on gunas/etc)
>
>	By the way, Manu's laws were discriminatory as well as reverse-
>discriminatory: "for the same crime a Vysya is to be punished twice that of
>a Shudra, a Kshathriya twice that of a Vysya and a Brahmin twice that of
>a Kshathriya"(taken from a recent issue of Thuglak). Yet, I do agree that Manu's

This is false.  What you wrote about the Kshatriyas and Vaishyas is true.
But a Bramins is not to be killed under any circumstances (according to
Manu).  Manu NEVER said that Bramins be given twice the punishment of
the Kshatriyas !!
>shastras did propagate caste based society.But, Manu's shastras are not
>applicable to S.Indian societies esp.  Tamil land.

Why not ? In fact not even forty years ago it was claimed that the Valluvar
stole his material on aRaththuppaal from Manu (Manu Samhita), Porudmpaal
from Canakkiya (Arththa sashtra) and inpaththuppaal from Vatsyana (Kama Sutra).

Anybody who read these works will tell you how different they are in SPRIT
from the more modern and universal tone of Valluvar.  All these other Skt.
literature have a lot of 'if's, 'buts' and other exception.  For example,
these Skt. lit. would say:
"you do job A if you are a Bramin and job B if you are any one of
 the following: non-Bramin, dog, cow, etc. "

Whereas Valluvar would say "Do (ye all) job C, period"  (where job C is
not at all controversial and acceptable to all the learned).

>
>	These days almost every non-Brahmin claims to be Shudra. Where are the 
>business community(Vysyas) which controlled labourers(even had bonded labourers)
>Where are the decendants of administrators(Kshathriyas) which include
>pannaiyars and in modern times our politicians. Self-claimed Shudra politicians
>in TN are yet to give a party post or a ministerial post to the actual Shudras.
>It is ridiculous to say that Brahmins who form a mere 4% controlled the rest.

As I wrote earlier, thanks to your forefathers (Bramins), we all are 
classified as sudras.  (Not that it matters, but it shows your ancestors
mentality)

>
>	Let's go back to the question of responsibility. Who should be blamed 
>more? Those who administered the law(Kshathriyas) or those who held monetary
>power(the Vysyas) and enslave poor peasants or those who had religious
>power(the Brahmins). In practice, the answer I get is that the Kshathriyas
>and Vysyas are to blamed more and hence the Shudras quarrel with Kshathriyas and
>Vysyas; they do not seem to quarrel with Brahmins. 

Again the blame goes to those who designed the stupid and unjust system and
propagated it using the cover of relgion.
>
>	Who led the Shudras into temples?-- weren't Brahmins like 
>Rajagopalachari involved in it? Even these days, in my village, 
>a Shudra wouln't dare to ask for
>water anywhere except in Agraharam(where the Brahmins stay).

You must be kidding.  Read any elementary book on the history of TN.

>5)India and the West
>	The British exagerated the casteist divisions on the one hand, so as 
>to claim that the Indians are barbaric and incapable of self-rule, and on the
>other to divide and rule. Consequently the west thinks that India is
>caste ridden.

Isn't it true ?
>
>Your opinion, suggestions, comments and criticisms are welcome.

There is no point in argueing who is to be blamed.  The truth is that
the casteism has done enough damage to India and it is high time we
agree to do affirmative action to get rid of it.   

>Raju
>raju@spock.usc.edu


Meenan Vishnu