From: ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman)
Subject: Re: What do you do when your child thinks Metallica is cool?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:04:34 GMT

In article <nestabro.721935285@nova> nestabro@nova.gmi.edu (Noel Estabrook) writes:
>ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman) writes:
>
>>Believe me, Noel, before I was a Christian I had *plenty* of conversations 
>>with people who quoted Scriptures to me, and they wre *not* pleasant
>>occasions for either the quoters or for me.  A typical conversation
>>went something like this:
>>Me:  I don't believe in God.
>>Quoter:  The Psalms say that those who don't believe in God are fools.
>>Me:  Get the #@*&&# out of my dorm room.
>
>I definitely wouldn't agree with that approach, either.  Scripture can be
>used much more powerfully than simply telling someone they are a fool.

Right.  And, to be fair, that wasn't the *only* Scripture I heard when 
I talked to these folks.  It was just the most confrontational one.  

The point is, though, that they were quoting Scripture to a person who
had absolutely no respect for Scripture.  And that's a fairly common
situation when Christians evangelize non-Christians.  It just doesn't
work.  And I don't think it's proper to fall back on the old, "Well,
they heard the truth and they rejected it" line that I hear many
Christians using in that situation.  They *didn't* hear the truth.
They didn't hear it because the truth wasn't presented in such a 
way that it addressed them as individuals.   

I may be biased because of the negative experiences I had as a non-
Christian, but when I talk to someone about the Lord I *never* 
quote Scripture directly.  By that I mean that I never refer to
books, chapters, and verses.  Obviously I talk about what the Bible
has to say about God and man and sin and salvation.  But that's just
it - I talk about it; I don't quote.  

>>During this time I was reading a bunch of Existentialist philosophy,
>>specifically Jean Paul Sartre's novels and plays and Albert Camus' novels.
>>And it wasn't until I encountered a Christian in my dorm who had 
>>*read* this stuff and who actually knew what it was saying that 
>>I had even a smidgen of respect for Christianity and Christians.  
>>There followed a year of intense discussions and arguments at 3:00 a.m. 
>>in dorm rooms.  Christians argued with me, point for point.  And
>
>In those arguments, did they primarily use Scripture to invalidate
>Neitschke's arguments?  (just curious).

Nope.  They used Scriptural ideas, though.  But more importantly, they
talked to me about what *I* believed rather than what *they* believed.
People tend to hold on to their basic beliefs pretty tenaciously.  
And they don't abandon them just because someone tells them that
they're wrong.  I had to be shown in very specific, detailed ways
how what I believed was an inadequate foundation upon which to build
a life.  And that took a lot of time.  But really, at least initially,
I met with a bunch of Christians who spent a lot more time talking
about Sartre and Camus than they did Jesus.  And that was *precisely*
what I needed.  I had to come to the understanding that what I 
believed *didn't* work before I could come to the understanding that
I needed to believe something else.  

It may not be Existentialism for most non-Christians.  It may be
hedonism, or consumerism, or living a good, moral life, or satanism,
or good ol' secular humanism.  It doesn't matter.  The point is that 
such beliefs lead to hell, and people need to believe in Jesus to
be saved.  But everybody is already standing on *some* kind of 
foundation - a foundation of presuppositions, assumptions about the 
nature of the world we live in and about themselves, notions of right 
and wrong, etc.  And until you show people that their foundation is
made of sand they're not going to have any motivation to stand on the
rock.  And that's why I think a basic understanding of non-Christian
philosophies and world views is essential for Christians.

>>they dragged me reluctantly to campus fellowship meetings, where
>>I would call out "Touchdown!" whenever people raised their hands to
>>worship the Lord.  
>What an incorrigible :-))
>
>>Maybe I was a particularly obstinate and obnoxious case (I can believe
>>that).  And looking back on it, I can clearly see the hand of God
>>working in the situation.  But I also see a bunch of Christians who
>>were willing to spend *enormous* amounts of their time and energy in
>>meeting me where I was at.  
>
>Do you think this can't be done with just primarily a knowledge of 
>Scripture?  I have shared with lots of people without being experts in
>their world-views and have still been effective.  What do you think?

I don't know if "expertise" is needed.  But I think a basic familiarity
with and understanding of competing philosophies/world views is 
helpful.  It's helpful because it helps you better understand why
people believe the things they do, and it's helpful because it helps
you see the crucial differences between their beliefs and your
Christian beliefs.

>>You seem to feel that Christianity and Philosophy are polar opposites.
>
>No, not really.  In fact, in the truest sense, Christianity IS a 
>philosophy.  It's just that any philosophy besides Christianity is 
>inconsistent.

Exactly.  I couldn't agree with you more.  But how are you going to point 
out those inconsistencies if you don't know in any detail what 
non-Christians believe?

>>You asked in an earlier post what possible value could be found in
>>studying someone like Friedrich Nietzsche, a philosopher who rejected
>>God and attacked Christianity.  Probably not much.  About the only
>>thing I can think of is that it might help you understand who I
>>was twenty years ago, and how you might lead me to Christ.  Is that
>>kind of study worth your time and effort?  I don't know.  I can't
>
>I guess my only point is is that I think I can probably have a pretty good
>idea of where you were without studying that stuff.  Scripture lays out the
>condition of all men without Christ.  I see your point, I'm just not sure I
>wholly agree with it.

I can tell you this much:  if, twenty years ago, you had shown up in my 
dorm room quoting Scripture, I would have thrown you out of my room. 
You know why?  Because I would have felt very strongly that you would
have had *no* idea of where I was without studying that stuff, and I
would have felt that you had absolutely no interest in who I was and
in finding out what I believed and why I believed it.  

No criticism intended toward you, Noel.  I'm just trying to explain my
mindset (and it was *very* set :-)) at the time.  I needed Christians
who were willing to meet me on my own terms.  

>BTW, thank you for a very good response.  Even though this is a tough
>subject, you've managed to handle it without sending it down a rathole.

No problem.  Thanks for your response as well.

>Noel Estabrook			 |	Your religion is what you
>nestabro@nova.gmi.edu         --|--     do after the sermon is over.
>Instructional Design & Tech.    |     
>Michigan State University       |               Romans 12:2

Andy Whitman
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio
att!cblpn!ajw  or
ajw@cblpn.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian