HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Criti!
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:17:50 GMT
Reply-To: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Organization: Commodore Germany

In article <D91ANDIV.92Dec9125841@ide11.IDA.LiU.SE> d91andiv@IDA.LiU.SE (Anders Ivner) writes:
 >>>You CAN NOT make ANY sound on the amiga without using samples! NONE!
 >
 >>Errrm, ever heard about a beastie named SONIX (or MusiCraft)??? This came
 >>with a sound synthesizer section. 
 >
 >Ahem.. How do you think the "synthesized" sounds in S*n*x works??
 >Right. They use samples. Really short ones (128 bytes?) that repeat
 >over and over again, but nevertheless they _are_ samples.

You never used SONIX, did you? Then you would know that this statement is
absolutley wrong: You yourself can *draw* this wave form into a little
window! That's not at all a sample after my book. It's wave form. Alter-
natively, you can also choose ready-made wave forms like sawtooth or
square or sine wave. These all are *no* samples!

 >>Please don't post such absolute statements and even blame and insult another 
 >>poster when you don't have your facts straight.
 >
 >Get your own facts straight before accusing others. The previous poster
 >probably knew what he was talking about because he knew how the hardware
 >works, and didn't base his opinion on having used s*n*x.

I fear it's still you who has to correct himself.

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to \\  Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Wer's nicht kann, soll's bleiben klopfen oder Steine lassen!
From: oahvenla@snakemail.hut.fi (Osma Ahvenlampi)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Criti!
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:39:48 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: lk-hp-4.hut.fi
In-reply-to: foregone@stein.u.washington.edu's message of Fri, 11 Dec 1992 04:38:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.043853.23553@u.washington.edu> foregone@stein.u.washington.edu (Carl Chavez) writes:

>How come an Amiga MUST have samples? I find it incredible that a computer
>in this day and age is incapable of creating sounds in other ways. After all,
>even ancient computers created sound simply by changing the frequency of
>clicks created by electrical activity! (Example: Apple II music and speech)

There are basically two ways to produce sound:

1) A couple of basic waveforms, and ADSR envelope, like the C-64 has. ADSR
   envelope affects the time-amplitude, waveform the 'sound'.. I count FM
   synthesis in this group too...
2) A data line to the audio output.

Method 2) means you can generate sound either by poking the register associated
with the data line, or use DMA to poke it, if the computer supports it. With
DMA, you can only use precalculated samples, if you use processor, you can
theoretically calculate the values on the fly, but that would usually take
so much time that the quality would be unacceptable.

These 'clicks' you mention happen because when you change the voltage on the
audio output, the speaker clicks. The bigger the change, the louder the click.
DMA does exactly this, it read memory at a defined speed and pokes the values
to the register.

You could do something like this on C-64 also, by changing the volume fast
enough.. This way you could get the 3 normal channels and a 4th 'channel'
for playing digitized sound, like drums.

If you have good enough audio control, you can do several other things beside
the DMAing samples, like changing the speed while playing (vibrato), changing
the volume while playing (tremolo, isn't it? I'm not too good with these terms)
modulating one channel with another, etc...

Amiga has no method 1 sound. It's pretty limited, you can not get anything
really natural sounding, only something sounding just as synthesized as it is.
With method 2, you can recreate any sound, if you have enough memory to store
it, but all the real time effects you can get with the hardware associated
with method 1 are not possible..

As for whether it's incredible that there's 'no other way' to create sound,
consider that the PC audio card using FM synthesis are considered obsolete,
and the new cards have only DMA channels...
--
Osma Ahvenlampi  -  oahvenla@snakemail.hut.fi   * Workstation power for micro-
All my opinions are not necessarily really mine * computer price: Amiga := FUN
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: davereed@wam.umd.edu (Michael Robert Bromery)
Subject: Re: Need help with 3DDemo and RSI Demomaker
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 08:23:27 GMT

   Hey buddy. by the way, that demo DOES work on your system. Don't fret.
  It is the ONLY demo so far I have been able to watch the whole way through
   on my A500 1/2 meg chip 2.5 fast with only roms 2.04, ESC Agnes and EHB
    denise. Everything else so far has crashed in terms of demos with neat
    programming tricks. If there are others, please tell me. They don't have
   to be perfectly OS playing ones, but ones that will work with my setup.
   You cannot use the second floppy to load the second half of the demo.
     ok, here's what you see. You will get to THE MIDDLE and your light will
    flash. Then you will have a white screen with possibly a screwed up
   graphic glitch showing, BUT you WILL NOT have the typical guru appear.
   it will just sit there. Actually, when that happens, it is really waiting
   for you to take the 1st disk out of the 1st drive and replace it with the
    second disk. The loader in the demo will automatically start reading the
    disk and you will quickly see the next step of their demo.(Animated
    raytrace) <- not the best in the world but definitely not bad, especialy
   when they mention that 1 meg is not required for it.
           ok, so it screws up on a machine with my setup or better, but it
   IS usable and that's "getting there". 

     P.S. -- I would love to get a list of demos or compile a list of demos
   that will run with systems like mine and above. Any response will be
    helpful.

  ---- Mike.

   Email:davereed@wam.umd.edu
.

Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: u920659@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen)
Subject: Re: Criti!
Organization: DAIMI: Computer Science Department, Aarhus University, Denmark
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 20:55:23 GMT

kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>And I'm serious about the alt.sys.amiga.demos.tech, we could discuss
>writing demos without worrying about anyone telling us "that's not
>OS complient" or "why don't you do it in NTSC?"

Yeah, why not?

>--Jason Balicki
>kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu

Carsten Soerensen
u920659@daimi.aau.dk
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Watch	out   |	  _   SLAMMER of					|
| for:	      |  //\ __  __ __ _ |_					|
| HOW TO SKIN | //--\| )(_| | (__| )\/ - BEDTIME FOR DEMOCRACY		|
| A CAT	      |	                    /	 e-mail: u920659@daimi.aau.dk	|
| released    |								|
| this XMAS   | 	Opinions? What opinions?			|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Watch	out   |	  _   SLAMMER of					|
| for:	      |  //\ __  __ __ _ |_					|
| HOW TO SKIN | //--\| )(_| | (__| )\/ - BEDTIME FOR DEMOCRACY		|
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal)
Subject: Re: Criti!
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:20:08 GMT

In <10297@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com> peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:

>In article <1992Dec9.050620.4869@tdb.uu.se> m92mmy@tdb.uu.se (Mattias Myrberg) writes:
>>In article 1942 Dr Peter Kittel writes:
>>
>>>Errrm, ever heard about a beastie named SONIX (or MusiCraft)??? This came
>>>with a sound synthesizer section. 
>>
>>Sorry to tell you, but you're wrong.
>>
>>Sampled means taken from a source, wheather you manage to get the
>>numbers flowing out of your head or sample a record doesn't matter.

>Sorry, now I understand, we have totally differing definitions of what
>a "sample" is:
>Me: A sample is always a digitized real-world (or CD/LP) sound.
>You: A sample is some digitized wave form residing somewhere in the
>computer's memory, without reasoning where it originally came from.

>That's where I differ: When you compute a wave form or *draw* it with a
>mouse and then put it into the memory, this is not a "sample" for me,
>but it is for you.

>I assume nobody can decide which of these definitions is "right" or
>"wrong". I'm totally surprised about yours, never saw that before.

>-- 
>Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to \\  Only my personal opinions...
>Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
>Wer's nicht kann, soll's bleiben klopfen oder Steine lassen!

Peter, you're not alone...your definition is the way *I* see it, too.  Hence I
agree with your SONIX interpretation. :>

(This is begining to sound like a chicken vs the egg dilemma)  :<

Crystal
  ;?
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: jmauric@eng.clemson.edu (John Maurice)
Subject: demo question
Reply-To: jmauric@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:49:01 GMT

where can i get the kefrens guardian dragon II demo?
whats the best demo for the amiga? im using an A500, 1 meg ram and
harddrive. or if there are several demos, which ones?

---

                                            --John

============================================================================
Reply to JMAURIC@ENG.CLEMSON.EDU       |    300 Rippleview Dr.
Phone: 803-653-3893                    |    Clemson, SC 29631
============================================================================
From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal)
Subject: Re: Holiday Lemmings
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:37:56 GMT

In <1992Dec14.200542.20959@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> clueless@bradley.edu (Mark Kristie) writes:

>Keven Ring (keven@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote:
>: This is not the same as XMas Lemmings!!!   A new holiday lemmings is out
>: on amiga.physik.unizh.ch, i believe in their game/demo directory.  It's new
>: for '92!  Check it out-looks reall good!!!  4 levels, same old reg. lemmings!
>: -- 
>: +-----------------------+"Frank-n-furter, it's all o-ver
>: |Keven Ring		|your mission is a failure. Your lifesyle's too extreme
>: |keven@csugrad.cs.vt.edu|I'm your new commander - You are now my prisoner
>: |VPI & SU		|We return to Transylvania.

>But has anybody figured out how to pass that goddamn 2nd level?


>----

>Any E-Mail responses to clueless@camelot.bradley.edu


Yep!  It's possible...though I have my doubts about level 4...

(Save some of your cuss words - you'll need 'em when you get to 4... :> )

Crystal
  ;>
From: jxp@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Joe Potter)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Source of Problem (was Re: Criti!)
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:40:08 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh

In article <1992Dec15.054434.26886@u.washington.edu>, foregone@stein.u.washington.edu (Carl Chavez) writes:
> You know, I think the main problem is that some people don't understand
> what a sample is. To the laypeople or hobby programmer (like me), a sample is
> something recorded, and a simple electrical click or wave is a sound. To the
> demo coders, a sample is *anything* generated by a computer.
> 
> Could somebody give the *real* definition of "sample"?

	Deja vu, anyone?

	A single sample refers to an instantaneous capture of a waveform's
amplitude at some specified instant.  A table can be built up of all such
captures over short time delays, and then can be replayed by changing the
signal level to a loudspeaker to values obtained from the table at a rate
identical to the "short time delays" referred to above.  The table is referred
to as a sampled sound, often abbreviated to just "sample."

	An example:  waveform is 100*sin(t*2*pi)

	We set the "short time delays" to be 0.01, then record 100 samples of
the function setting t to 0.00, 0.01, 0.02, ... , 0.98, 0.99.  Now we've got a
table of 100 values between 0 and 100.  Then, we can send these table values to
the D to A converter at any rate we choose and have a sine wave!

	Usually, sampled sounds are captured by using an A to D converter on an
analogue input signal from an instrument.  However, it's valid to sample any
continuous function in this manner, generating a discontinuous "approximation"
whose error (called aliasing distortion) has a frequency greater than audible
sounds (~20kHz).  In this way, a computed sound can be generated and replayed
on the Amiga.
	And, contrary to my previous post which everyone ignored, computed
sounds ARE sampled sounds.

							Joe.

"What the f--k was all that about?"
From: oahvenla@snakemail.hut.fi (Osma Ahvenlampi)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Criti!
Date: 19 Dec 92 18:06:35 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: lk-hp-4.hut.fi
In-reply-to: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com's message of 15 Dec 92 13:36:42 GMT

In article <10299@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com> peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:

>In article <Paul_Trauth.197y@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US> Paul_Trauth@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Paul Trauth) writes:
>>
>>This is how the Amiga's samples are done. Didn't you ever hear horrid 1-bit
>>samples on the Apple? Or cheesy 4-bit samples on the C64? The main
>>difference is that the Amiga has DMA-driven sample-oriented hardware.

>It's WAVEFORM oriented. Please do not call this generally "sample".
>I definitely think you mess up terms here.

>>And this is samples as opposed to hardware-level synth: you CAN do
>>synthesized sounds on the Amiga, but you have to essentially create a
>>sample mathematically and play it. 

>And don't forget: You can digitize it from a real-world sound, like a
>guitar. And *this* is then a true sample.

>>Always remember, though, at the lowest level, they're playing
>>samples. (And eating up a good chunk of CPU generating them on the fly...)

>Waveforms :-).

Uhhoh... Do I really have to repeat how the English language word sample is 
defined, or do people get it the first time? 'Sample' says NOTHING about the
origin. It doesn't even have to be sound. Sample is anything representing
something.
--
Osma Ahvenlampi  -  oahvenla@snakemail.hut.fi   * Workstation power for micro-
All my opinions are not necessarily really mine * computer price: Amiga := FUN
From: crunch@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Travis Prebble)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Odyssey 1.0 vs Odyssey 1.1!?
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 12:15:52 EST
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

Andrew_Miller@camelot.apana.org.au (Andrew Miller) writes:

>  MDD> (BTW, has anyone corrected their spelling yet?)
> THey need spelling and grammar corrected... not to mention a decent, non
> corny storyline! Otherwise it is the best demo ever. If only the first 2
> disks.

What do you find corny about a guy who has to visit an oracle who tells 
him that he must visit a bunch of monks in order to acquire the ultimate 
weapon, but then has to fly to a completely different planet to get a 
necessary ingredient from a race of aquatic creatures that look like the 
incredible hulk?  =)

Usually, when I show that demo, I quit just after the chase scene, unless 
the audience really has nothing to do for the next hour.  But yes, it is 
definitely the best demo by far.


----------------------------------------------------------///\------------
Travis Prebble @ Heart of Gold BBS (814) 238-9633        ///  \
INet address: crunch@hogbbs.scol.pa.us               \\\///----\
(814) 353-9069                                        \XX/      \ MIGA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TARDIS Express:  When it absolutely, positively has to be there yesterday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Monday, 14 Dec 1992 15:34:55 EST
From: <IO92257@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: PartyII STUFF!! :)
 <SAUBER.92Dec13144051@galois.iesd.auc.dk>

In article <SAUBER.92Dec13144051@galois.iesd.auc.dk>, sauber@iesd.auc.dk (Soeren
Doessing Nielsen) says:
>
>>The PartyII ("The Final" [sure, sure]) is fast approaching ..
>
>It is, indeed, and it WILL be the most incredible party ever, I guess
>every demo-group have registered.
>
>On dec the 30th I will upload on internet sites as many as possible of
>the productions, which join the competitions.
>
>Collection disks will be made and spread on the 29th and uploaded on
>the 30th.
>
>I will announce the uploadings as soon as possible, with information
>about sites, productions, and which productions won the competitions.
>
>
GREAT!  PARTY-TIME!
Mababu of MegaShots (Vodka, of course! Shaken, not stirred!)
;)
Internet Rules!
>Se ya.
>                                                  SauberSound
>                                                  Organizer
>                                                  THE PARTY 92
>
From: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Criti!
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:24:34 GMT
Reply-To: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Organization: Commodore Germany

In article <1992Dec9.050620.4869@tdb.uu.se> m92mmy@tdb.uu.se (Mattias Myrberg) writes:
>In article 1942 Dr Peter Kittel writes:
>
>>Errrm, ever heard about a beastie named SONIX (or MusiCraft)??? This came
>>with a sound synthesizer section. 
>
>Sorry to tell you, but you're wrong.
>
>Sampled means taken from a source, wheather you manage to get the
>numbers flowing out of your head or sample a record doesn't matter.

Sorry, now I understand, we have totally differing definitions of what
a "sample" is:
Me: A sample is always a digitized real-world (or CD/LP) sound.
You: A sample is some digitized wave form residing somewhere in the
computer's memory, without reasoning where it originally came from.

That's where I differ: When you compute a wave form or *draw* it with a
mouse and then put it into the memory, this is not a "sample" for me,
but it is for you.

I assume nobody can decide which of these definitions is "right" or
"wrong". I'm totally surprised about yours, never saw that before.

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to \\  Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Wer's nicht kann, soll's bleiben klopfen oder Steine lassen!
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: foregone@stein.u.washington.edu (Carl Chavez)
Subject: Re: Criti!
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:03:13 GMT

In article <1gc7l7INN1id@life.ai.mit.edu> jbrown@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Justin William Brown) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.055946.20274@u.washington.edu> foregone@stein.u.washington.edu (Carl Chavez) writes:
>>
>>Using ONLY clicks, it simulated the following sentences:
>>
>>"SEEEEEEEEEAAA DRAGON!"
>>"Captain, the ship's computer is now ready. Please wait while I initialize
>>systems."
>>"Approaching maximum (pirate copy I have [I'm sorry!] garbles rest)"
>>"Approaching Dragon Room! Destroy all bricks to free Dragon! Do NOT SHOOT
>>Dragon!"
>
>I think it was "approaching maximum damage!"  I never made it far enough
>to hear the last sentence, but you forgot "Air level critical!"  (I may
>be a little off :).  The game was frustratingly difficult.
>

Well, if you still have your Apple (I do...:>) you can press Ctrl-J or
Ctrl-K to have 99% starting air instead of 60%

>quality would be ... not so good :).  I'm also not 100% certain of
>anything I just said ;).

Well, that's what amazed me about Seadragon. The quality was very good.
I don't think the voices were digitized, I think they were programmed in.
Of course, like you, I'm not 100% certain...:)


>
>-Maruku of (\/)ega(/\)atts
>jbrown@gnu.ai.mit.edu
>Marc Brown
>
From: boing@mcl.ucsb.edu (Geff Hanoian)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Multitasking Demos
Date: 12 Dec 92 06:42:24 GMT


	On the multitasking demos theme ... I think you fail to realize that
	a lot of the just plain hacker demo doods still have A1000's and 
	A500's and could care less (a) what it looks like on a ECS or
	AGA and (b) have an EGO BIG ENOUGH SO THAT THEY DON'T WANT IT
	MULTITASKING!!!!!  I know if I wrote a demo (sooon hopefully)
	that I wouldn't want you watching or doing other stuff ... you
	ottta be watching my demo.  Programmers have a big EGO and always
	will.

	boing
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|             DISCLAIMER!!!!!!  The opinions I express are my own.         |
|  Nakamichi, Precision Power, AVI SOUND, and Monster Cable Speaker Wire.  |
|        boing@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu   FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS USE MACS!      |
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Source of Problem (was Re: Criti!)
From: jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers)
Date: 18 Dec 92 09:09:15 PST
Organization: TAP

Quoted from <1992Dec15.054434.26886@u.washington.edu> by foregone@stein.u.washington.edu (Carl Chavez):

> Could somebody give the *real* definition of "sample"?

    In this context it's a chunk of data fed to a D/A converter.
--
*** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***
From: sl8nl@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Multitasking Demos
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:23:53 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

> I saw a demo on a 486 the other day, was kinda funny, it took over the machine
> and looked real nice too.  The funny part is they mentioned that the IBM could
> do the same as the Amiga.  Heh, only demo of it's kind iv'e ever seen.  I'm
> sure it wouldn't be nearly as nice on an XT, or even a 286

There are lots of IBM demos like that.  Most major demo coders have the mixing
process of digital modules down FAST!!! and can pump out digital music AND
graphics aat the same time.  Pretty sweet.  (Check out Unreal and Amnesia).

> Amigas rock.  :)

You bet they do.

Question:  IBM has a new sound card now...called the Gravis Ultrasound.  It is
32-channel digital pannable 8/16-bit sound card with wave-table
synthesis...closest comparison in Amiga terms: 8 Paula chips in one.  Does the
Amiga have such a card?

Joshua Jensen