From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There is no god
Date: 25 Dec 92 09:22:45 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <Dec.20.18.24.16.1992.22604@farside.rutgers.edu> lgp7q@virginia.edu writes:
>If you would allow me to enter into this fascinating
>discussion, I might help shed some lights as to the impossible
>task of your discussion. As a theology almost Ph.D. and a
>Christian, I must say that God does not exist....pretty
>shocking, huh? This does not mean that there is no God, just
>that it is impossible to prove one way or the other.

That depends entirely upon how "God" is defined.

>If God
>were to exist, God would be a being amongst other beings, but
>the definition of God is that God is the creator of all finite
>being, this would imply that God is not a "being" but rather,
>that God is the ground of all beings.

Not at all.  It is just as easy to postulate that God is
a "being" like other beings, but with lots of special powers.
There are two questions:  is there a Creator, and (if so)
what is the relationship between the Creator and the creation.
Did the Creator get the universe started, and now watches
while the drama unfolds; or is the Creator intimately and
continually necessary for the continued existence of 
everything.

>If anyone could prove the
>"existance" of God, or even have a definite knowledge of God,
>then he or she would have imposed a limit on God implying that
>God is a finite limited being, which goes contrary to any
>definition of God, since God is said to be infinite.

Well, others have already pointed out that YOU are claiming
knowledge of God.  :)  Besides, claiming knowledge of certain
attributes of God does not necessarily "limit" any other 
attributes of God; eg, one can claim that God is composed
of three persons, without limiting the inifinity of God.

>Now,
>according to Emmanuel Kant there are three ideas that cannot be
>known, they are the Self, the World, and God. You can never
>truly see your "self" because the one looking is the self, and
>once you try to see or reflect upon the self you are already
>not there, since now you are the one reflecting

Hmmm, ... since the "self" includes all modes of perception,
it could just as easily be argued that the ONLY thing we
can be sure of is the "self".  Thanks for reminding me
why I never put much stock in Kant.

>...you cannot
>know the World (Universe as a whole) because you are part of it
>and can't step out to look. (and if you did, then you as part
>of the world cannot be in it and it would not be the world).

True, no one can know the universe "as a whole"; does this
invalidate knowledge of certain parts of the universe?

>Finally, God as the source of both of these things, could not
>be known either.

How do you know that God is the source of both these things?

>So what does that leave us with? Faith.

Specifically, it leaves us with a faith that says,
"I believe in God, about Whom I know nothing".
Not much of a solution.

>No one
>can disprove God either for the same reasons. All we can know
>of God is the limited knowledge that God would let us know
>(which is not all there is to know)

If humans possessed any knowledge of God, this knowledge would
be testable.  A proposition about God, at least a proposition
stating some action or attribute of God which involves the
observable universe, would be subject to the same analysis
as any other proposition.  This analysis may not provide
a "proof" of the non-existence of God, but it can demonstrate
that God does not possess certain attributes.

Of course, this does not even touch on the problem of
humans claiming knowledge of God when this "knowledge"
is contradictory, either among itself or with 
the observable universe.

>This is, for Christians,
>found in the Bible, and in God's appearance in our midst as
>Christ. Now can anybody disprove that someone who has an
>encounter with God as living and transforming power is wrong?
>No. You either believe them, or not. The best proof is the
>difference God makes in a persons life...even if it is not an
>objective proof.

I have heard testimony about the transforming power of
Christianity (various forms).
I have heard testimony about the transforming
power of rejecting Christianity.  I have heard testimony
of the transforming power of Judaism, of Islam, of Zen,
of Wicca, of Krishna, and other faiths.  I have the
evidence of my own spiritual sojurns.

Now what do I do?

(stuff about the problem of evil, deleted)

>Luis
>U.Va.


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       A Lie is still a Lie, even if you believe it.
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