From: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (Patrick Taylor)
Newsgroups: houston.general,tx.politics
Subject: Re: Anti-choice vs. Pro-abortion (was Re: Houston Defending Choice Coalition needs you)
Date: 25 Aug 92 22:16:35 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug21.142203.17220@menudo.uh.edu> moore@uhibpd.phys.uh.edu (Lorra L. Moore) writes:
>In article <exuptr.369.714352967@exu.ericsson.se> exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (Patrick Taylor) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug20.141652.1999@menudo.uh.edu> moore@uhibpd.phys.uh.edu (Lorra L. Moore) writes:
>>Ever look past your prejudice when you weren't insulting?

>Ever made a decision for yourself and stopped trying to force it on
>others?

I never force anything on others.  My question stands.

>>To reply to your point, of course accidents happen.  Now tell me for real 
>>that most abortions occur because of _real_ accidents where birth control 
>>was being used with a good degree of diligence.

>and so what if it wasn't?  

If it wasn't, then your point is just plain out-to-lunch.

>The point is that if birth control wasn't
>being used, then the pregnant person obviously isn't responsible enough
>to make the kinds of decisions it takes to have and raise a child.  

So let someone ELSE raise it.  You don't have to kill it, do you?  That's
not the only CHOICE.

>If
>birth control was being used, not only is there the high probability of
>birth defects 

BULL.  Both of my children were conceived and born during sporadic use of
"the pill".  No ill effects at all.  Sure, it happens, but malnutrition
and lack of prenatal care (which is something I feel pro-lifers SHOULD
address) are far worse dangers.

>(ie, even if it is put up for adoption, it will sit in an
>orphanage for the rest of its life, 

wrong, wrong, wrong.

>this is of course, hoping it isn't
>brain dead) but the woman OBVIOUSLY didn't want to have a child.  What
>part of this are you missing?

The parts that aren't completely NEGATIVE that you seem to have overlooked
yourself.  You would have persons believe that most aborted fetuses were
bound to be deformed, neglected, or stillborn.  BULLSHIT.  Period.  That's
just an abdication of responsibility.

If you want to do something about this problem, get out there and help some 
of these kids _live_.  There is no reason a pregnant teenager can't carry
to full term, be cared for, choose to keep or adopt, and live well in her
choice.  There's plenty of persons waiting to adopt (especially for white 
babies, and that's funny because the last time I was in an abortion clinic I 
saw one Asian girl and the rest, about 20, were white).

>>
>>>Ever
>>>listened to the 16 and year old women that are tearing themselves apart
>>>because, even though they were on birth control, they still are finding
>>>themselves faced with this decision?  
>>
>>No, but I hope to, one day.

>you hope to?  It isn't a pleasant experience, I have no idea why you
>would hope to?

TO HELP.  Something maybe you don't understand.

>>
>>>I have been inside one, and
>>             ^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>You mean an abortion clinic, I take it.  I have, too.  Not to disrupt, but 
>>to listen.  Most were mid twenties, had a regular boyfriend, took the pill 
>>most of the time...

>even you agree that these children are OBVIOUSLY going to be unwanted.
>Do you think this world needs MORE unwanted children?

Do I?

>>>it is so silly when you actually step back and look at it), this young
>>>lady was obviously to irresponsible to use birth control, so, what do
>>>the pro-lifers want to do? 
>>>Punish her for her actions by saddling her
>>>with a baby for the next 18 years.  
>>
>>Oh is _that_ what WE are trying to do?

>what are you trying to do?  If you don't want to have an abortion, then
>don't have one.  Why is that so hard?

If you want to have one, have one, but stay outta my way trying to help 
others look at ALL the choices.

>>You have children?

>no, I was responsible enough to realize, the one time I did get
>pregnant while taking birth control, that both my child and I would
>suffer behind it and that I would, when I was ready to have children,
>plan on them and have them responsibly and give them the best life
>I was capable of giving them.  

>Actually, I plan on adopting.  Since there are so many unwanted children
>out there, I hope to give at least one of them a home.  A happy home.
>And it won't be some cute little scarce happy white baby either.  

Ah, so you admit to that at least.

>It
>will be a child that needs a happy home because it was brought into this
>world by someone that thought they were doing the 'right thing' and
>brought it to term.  So, I am going to do what little I can do to heal
>the disease that the pro-lifers spend their time contributing to.  

You will still have to wait, there are a lot of people in line.

>Have you adopted any black children who had crackhead mothers?
Never adopted any to date.  Most death clinic patients don't meet this 
profile, though.

>[pointed sarcasm and insults to follow... just a warning]
no prob

>Some times it is easier to resort to insults and sarcasm simply to
>point out how silly the argument sounds.

Especially for the dull-witted.

>>>Oh, I am sure, over night, she will
>>>find enough responsibility in her soul to care for this child and
>>>herself.... NOT.  
>>
>>Believe it or not, it has actually happened.  Do you know that some girls

>once.. .twice... hallelujah!!! call God!
when you don't have an answer, be sarcastic ;)

>>that get pregnant at 16 actually later end up marrying some nice guy that 
>>was not the father of their child?  Some others get help from relatives, or 

>oh.. and a man came in and made it all right.  How... patriarchal of
>you.

I don't suppose you think men are good for anything.  Did you get along with 
your dad?  Probably not.  No matter, "relatives" is not gender specific, and 
neither is friends.  Forgive me if I occasionally refer to something that 
someone else may regard as a comforting situation - someone who cares and 
happens to be of the opposite sex.

>[insults and sarcasm off... but no guarantees that they won't start
>again]

>>>Do pro-lifers simply not care for the quality of life
>>>these children are going to have to endure?  
>>
>>Damn right we care, and we're going to do something about it.

>what?? what are you doing? Please, tell me what solutions you have
>implemented (other than violent demonstrations at abortion clinics).

Well, to start, I have not implemented any violence at all.  That is a 
generalization, like me saying you are a baby-killing feminist.

>Have you thought about the idea that if what you were doing was really
>effective and a solution then there wouldn't be waiting lines at
>abortion clinics... 

Things take time, but we'll get there ma'am.  Soon you won't be able to give 
an abortion away with a 59 cent hot dog at 7-11.

>there would be lines at what ever facilities you set
>up.  Set them up... let the lines come to you.. 

If we can get them past nuts like you...

>and then, there won't be
>any more abortion clinics because they won't be able to stay open.
>Please, do this.  

Again, these things take time.  Care to make a donation?  Oh, I forgot, 
you couldn't understand why I would want to do that (see above).

>Come up with a solution that people can CHOOSE over
>abortion (there is that word again... such a nice word.... 'choice'..
>what a concent)

exists, already.  We just need to make it more accessible to the poor and
underage.

>>>Do they simply not think
>>>about it at all and live in this fantasy that they are doing some
>>>greater good?  
>>
>>Your prejudice is showing again :-)

>you didn't answer the question.  It wasn't rhetorical.  I really don't
>understand what pro-lifers think they are doing.

Your question is screwed.  To understand what "they" are doing, you would 
have to ask each one of "them".  Get it?  I, for one, am trying to stop
the bloodshed.  I'm rather limited of resources at the moment, but I'm not
going to quit until I douse the demand for abortions.

>>>I have an idea.  Before you try to make abortions illegal, why don't you
>>>put these palatable, living solutions into place?  
>>
>>Never said I was going to try and make them illegal, although I might.  But 
>>this is not what pro-life is about.  It is about working the situation for 

>really?  What is pro-life about?  Have you mentioned this to all the
>pro-lifers marching on Washington trying to make abortions illegal? 

Certainly not all.

>or
>did you just miss the boat and not get that handout?

Sure, I got the handout.  It's just not my bag.  Plus it won't work.

>Please... let's please live in the here and now for a minute.  If

#include <some.h>  /* Just keeping you programmers awake */

>pro-lifers weren't trying to make abortions illegal, then pro-choicers
>wouldn't have any reason for existance simply because our freedom of
>choice wouldn't be threatened.

There are plenty of choices... only one is under attack, and that one is 
pretty gruesome in my opinion.  Not that I've never done anything gruesome...

But you are right in one thing, it will not work just to make abortions 
illegal and change nothing else.  An idiot can see that.  So can probably 
most of the pro-lifers.  THey're just caught up in the other end of the 
battle, fighting for what they consider to be more important, LIFE.

While everyone is loudly arguing, *we* will be starting a quiet revolution.

>>the best of all, including the unborn.  Clearly any solution that left him/
>>her dead or uncared for is not good.  We simply have to stop settling for 
>>whatever we consider the lesser of two evils, because the two sides cannot 
>>agree on that.  The only thing we can ever seem to agree on is what is the 
>>very best.  SO let's get on with it.

>what is the very best?  That young irresponsible people don't get
>pregnant?  

That would be nice.

>That birth control works one hundred percent of the time?

Also handy.

>That all pregnancies are planned on and prepared for?  

How about a better percentage?

>How do you propose we get on with it?  You have a solution to this 
>problem?  

Sure.  Get out there and talk to these kids.  Give them something to do.
I for one will not leave my kids, or others if I can help it, to get into 
trouble.  

#define soapbox ON

NO YOU CAN'T PREVENT EVERYTHING, BUT WE CAN MAKE A HELL OF A DENT
in the situation if we gave kids some other outlets and set  some good 
examples ourselves (This means _us_, Christians.  It's about time we became
moral leaders and not moral preachers.).

#undef soapbox

>Hell, I'll go with you.  Work side by side.  Let's do it.

Hmm.  My sarcasm detector is not working right now...

>oh... when confronted with what it looks like on this side, it is just
>prejudice.  If that isn't what you are about, then what is it?  If you
>believe that abortions are wrong.. then don't have them.  What seems to
>be the problem here?

Haven't I heard this before?  If I believe abortions are wrong, I'm going to 
do a hell of a lot more than not have them, same way that if I think drugs 
are wrong, I'm going to do a hell of a lot more than not do them myself.

But, again, I'm not into force.  You just have to give someone a better 
alternative, that's all.

>what do you think a real solution is?  I have one.  Sterilize everyone
>and sell the anecdote.  This is a solution.  Want to help me implement
>it? 

You mean antidote?  Some people might object to you invading the privacy of 
their bodies ;-)

>Do you really think that people are just going to stop having sex unless
>they are planning on having a child?  

Not even me.

>Do you really think that birth
>control is going to work all the time?  

No.

>Do you really think that
>miraculously there are going to be homes for thousands of children of
>minority drug users?

Yes.  MIRACULOUSLY, indeed.

>Tell me what your solutions are?  
>Please.  
>I would love to hear them.  I
>haven't heard any that were based on reality.  That actually dealt with
>the long term.  

Oh, I'm afraid these only deal with the long term.  We have to roll up our 
sleeves and get dirty.  If I have to provide a home for an unwed mother or
whatever, when I am called to do so I will.  I'm still working on my wife, 
but she's got her own help area to think about.

>>>Man, you are really sadistic.
>>
>>Oh really?  It's sadistic of me to suggest that neither death is ok, while 
>>you justify abortion based on unknowns?

>you are basing no abortions based on the same unknowns.  I am justifying
>abortions based on the CHANCE to live a happy life.

Think again.  Your choice means NO LIFE for someone.  No abortion is the 
ONLY chance for a happy life for all.  I hope you really think about that.

>>You're so caught up in the fight you don't know what you're fighting.

>and you sir are living in a glass house.

So I will throw no stones ;-)

>I know exactly what I am fighting.
>I am fighting poverty and despair.  Homelessness. Over population. High
>taxation.  Unemployment.  Child abuse.  Drug Abuse. 
>And a hoard of others.  I am simply trying to stop the problem at its
>inception.  

No, you are stopping the "problem" (IMHO a person) WAY PAST inception, 
conception, and contraception.

>Listen to the children that were born into families that didn't want
>them.  That weren't ready to have them.  

There is an easy non-deadly solution to this.

>Listen to them talk about the
>physical and emotional abuse they received because their parents blame
>them for ruining their lives.  

This happens even to non-adopted children.

>Please, stop and think about the children
>that you are bringing into this world and have some compassion.  Give
>them a chance to be happy.  You are almost guaranteeing that they will
>be miserable. The odds aren't in their favor.  With as hard as it is in
>this world when you do have a loving family and you are planned for, it
>is miserable when you have poverty, loneliness, drug usage,
>homelessness, all this working against you as well.  Please, stop
>thinking about the unborn child long enough to think about the one you
>bring into this world.  

You are just too negative.  Sorry, but that's the way I see it.  It's just 
not ALL bad, nor is it mostly.  Sure, the worst cases are the most obvious.  
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

But who can listen to the dead fetus/child?  How can she/he speak on his/her 
own behalf?  What  do you know about how they feel?

Believe me I won't rest until the rest are taken care of also, but I'm not 
going to go around advocating killing the homeless, and neither should you.
(Excuse the preaching, it just slipped out.)  What you, ahem, I need to do, 
is find them homes, get them jobs, 
etc...					

>And don't patronize me with 'well, one in a
>million turns out okay'.... I don't like those odds.

Don't worry I won't.  Much many more than that turn out ok :-)

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   "This must be Thursday.  I never could get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                          - D Adams
  - Patrick Taylor
    Ericsson Network Systems
    exuptr@exu.ericsson.se             "Don't let the .se fool you"
    alternately, exuptr@ZGNews.Lonestar.Org
Newsgroups: houston.general