HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:37:11 GMT
Reply-To: iho@cac.washington.edu
Distribution: seattle
Organization: University of Washington, Tacoma

kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrm 762-6417) writes:
> il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh) writes:

> >By the way, some of you have started to get silly.  I'm only answering

> At this point it looks like your discourse got chopped by a wild .sig.

Oops!  The rest reads something like:

I'm only answering posts that make sense and are relevant to the issue
under discussion.

-- 
Il Hwan Oh                    | "A university is a place where people pay
Computer Facilities Manager   | high prices for goods which they then
Univ. of Washington, Tacoma   | proceed to leave on the counter when
iho@cac.washington.edu        | they go out of the store." -- Loren Eisley
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: zintel@mdd.comm.mot.com (Mike Zintel)
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA
Distribution: seattle
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 17:00:08 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.043045.7060@u.washington.edu> iho@cac.washington.edu writes:
> il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh) writes:
>That's very nice in theory, but how do you propose to teach a 6-year
>old how to deal with everything he/she might possibly encounter in
>the world?  I think parents nowadays need all the help they can get.

How does this law help parents ? Does it help prevent 6 years olds from
harm caused by music ? I think not. It causes an increased interest in 
this music and they will hear it anyway. Actually, we will get more of it.
Nothing could please the creators of offensive music more than for folks 
to be offended by it. 

I agree that parents have a tough job these days. Maybe they always did.
-- 
-----
Mike Zintel            
zintel@mdd.comm.mot.com not zintel@mdi.com anymore

Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrm 762-6417)
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Organization: Cores 'R Us
Distribution: seattle
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 21:33:42 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.174316.16062@u.washington.edu> il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh) writes:
>dbj@cs.washington.edu (Dave Johnson) writes:
>
>>Gee, my son Chubbo is getting awfully fat these days, and I know
>>why.  It's because of all those nasty candy bars he eats.  Those things
>>don't have any nutritive value, and they obviously have a bad effect
>>on poor little Chubbo, so they're horrible and children shouldn't be
>>able to buy them, so I think I'll get a law passed so that noone under
>>the age of 18 can buy a candy bar.  Chubbo will slim down, become so
>>popular he'll be elected class president, and I'll be so proud.
>
>Ah, thank you for providing the perfect opportunity to demonstrate
>my point.  If you and enough parents believe the same way, you can
>get a law passed to that effect.

Yeah, right, no matter how trivial.  This not only doesn't insure an orderly
society, but guarantees codified chaos (what we have now) which is what
authoritarians thrive on.  The authoritarians job is to convince parents that
putting all Chubbos on short candy rations will solve all their problems, and
to sweep under the rug the fact that some Chubbos will slim down, some won't,
to the great perplexity of some parents, who've been manipulated into thinking
that *all* their kids are Chubbos, that being a Chubbo is *bad* and a sign
that you come from *inferior* Chubbo stock, and you'd better conceal it or
the populace, in their infinite authoritarian-given wisdom, will dump on you.

>                                  There is nothing morally or ethically
>wrong or right about this, in my opinion.

Does this opinion apply WRT the music law?

A while back you saw no problem with the idea that the purpose of government
is to force us all to obey the will of the majority.  Is the "will of the
majority" an imperative that transcends moral or ethical judgements, in
your opinion?

>                                           Back to the music censoring
>issue, I don't believe we have enough information to determine if the
>majority of parents are in favor or against this.

Are you admitting the lack of wisdom of the policy?  Is there something
wrong with the process?

>-- 
>Il Hwan Oh                    | "A university is a place where people pay
>Computer Facilities Manager   | high prices for goods which they then
>Univ. of Washington, Tacoma   | proceed to leave on the counter when
>iho@cac.washington.edu        | they go out of the store." -- Loren Eisley

kurt@grogatch.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse)
Subject: Re: `Music censorship' issue
Summary: Limits
Organization: <<< ESKIMO NORTH (206)-FOR-EVER >>>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 04:54:33 GMT

In article <MS-C.702601260.267834847.mrc@marge.cac.washington.edu>, Mark Crispin <mrc@marge.cac.washington.edu> writes:
>      I guess I have to join the ranks of the `clueless' in this issue.  As I
> understand the new law, it does not censor anything; nor does it prevent
> adults from purchasing anything that they could previously purchase.  All the
> law does is limit what minors can purchase.

     I'll try to make it clear for you.  It doesn't just affect HER children,
or YOUR children, it affects MY children and they are none of your business.
How can I make that clear!  Raise your own children, leave mine alone, they are
mine, not yours, my responsibility, not yours not the governments!

     I'll try to be more explicit about why I do not feel it's good to
restrict children's access to this kind of material.

     First, I believe that the "children" we're speaking of are teenagers.
Teenagers, particularly those going through puberty are having a whole lot
of feelings they are experiencing for the first time.  Sexual urges, changes,
greater independance, a conflict between needing to be oneself and still
wanting not to be seperated from ones parents.

     What do they do with those feelings?  They have basically two choices,
they can act out, become destructive, have sex, get pregnant, have babies,
have abortions, do drugs.

     Or... They can communicate their feelings.  Music is a form of that
communication.  Since some of the most strong feelings at that time are
erotic feelings, sexual feelings, I believe it is a hell of a lot better
for them to express those feelings then to act on them.  They are in a time
of thier lives when they have a lot of new feelings they are having
difficulty understanding, if there is anytime in their lives when the need
for open lines of communication exist, this is it.

     Banning a form of expression is closing down those very important lines
of communication.  If they can't express their feelings, then the alternative
is to act on them.

     If you look at different cultures, one thing that becomes apparent,
those countries with the most social problems, teenage pregnancy, violent
crimes, drug abuse, are those countries where people can't find healthy
avenues of expression, like in the United States.

     In short, if you want to screw up your kids lives, don't let them go
into a record store, take away their radios, ground them for life, but leave
my kids alone, thank you!
From: dbj@cs.washington.edu (Dave Johnson)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Date: 9 Apr 92 19:52:56 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Apr9.102556.28910@polari.com> bruceki@polari.com writes:
>In article <1992Apr8.224240.3316@u.washington.edu> jrdobbs@milton.u.washington.edu (J R "Bob" Dobbs) writes:
>[Some deleted]
>>Yesterday a friend told me the Edge (a "new wave" radio station) was playing
>>a radio song glorifying rape.  I think if there is ANY censorship in society
>[More deleted]
>
>  The song is by a band named "Toe the wet sprocket" and is about the
>anguish suffered when the girlfriend of the song writer was raped.
>The song title is "Hold her down" and some of the lyrics say things 
>like "...the hell they put you through..." "I'm sorry about what a
>man can do...", &c.

Slight correction--the band's name is 'Toad the Wet Sprocket'.

>  You, and other censorship advocates, seem unwilling to either do your
>homework or allow people freedom of choice in what they listen to.  Go
>do your homework.  
>  Amazing.  

The really amazing part is that the DJs for the End (not the Edge)
almost always introduced the song with a careful explanation of the
above info (the song protests rape, etc.) and I used to think,
"Come on, guys, give us some credit for having a few brain cells.
We can hear the words; its pretty clear...."  Obviously my mistake.
-- 
  Dave Johnson

"You're not too smart, are you?  I like that in a man."
    --Kathleen Turner in Body Heat
From: donn@brat.UUCP (Donn Pedro)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Society's 'right' to remove your own.
Date: 11 Apr 92 16:25:12 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Tandemonium, Kent, WA

In article <1992Apr10.142521.25860@mdd.comm.mot.com> mitchell@mdd.comm.mot.com (Bill Mitchell) writes:
>
>The majority of our society holds values, for example, that it is
>wrong to rape, pillage, cheat, steal, murder, etc.

I won't bore you with all the examples, but 'society' also thinks
many perfectly harmless things are also 'wrong'.

>Thru our representative system of government, we've also as a society
>set other limits.  Minimum drinking age, minimum age to buy tobacco
>products, prohibition of recreational drug use, speed limits,  seasonal
>bans against watering the lawn during a drought, etc.

"Take care of me, oh Society, for I have not the brains to do it myself."

>We've forfeited the civil liberties which would allow members of society
>not agreeing with these value judgements to ignore them, and created
>governmental agencies to enforce the values on those who would exercise
>the forfeited civil liberties by murdering, raping, pillaging, or driving
>over 55 mph.
>
>Are you seriously saying that this whole system is a _bad_thing_?  

I do.  It is an overgrown monster, feeding off the labors of it's 
members in an effort to keep itself alive.  It's one function 
has been changed - perpetuate the 'society/government' at all costs.

> What
>would you suggest to replace it?

A world where you can do anything, be anything, go anywhere you want,
as long as you bring harm to no one.

Simple - isn't it?

I live by this one law every day.  It seems to cover most of our society's
redundant, conflicting, confusing, arbitrary laws quite well thank you.

>Oh, BTW, I think this music censorship law is silly and stupid.  However,
>I'm not about to suggest reworking our entire society because of it.

Why not?  It certianly needs it.




     Donn Pedro ....................a.k.a. uunet!nwnexus!brat!donn
         			     else:  uunet!uswnvg!dfpedro
	
	       "You talk the talk.  Do you walk the walk?"
From: fyl@fylz.wa.com (Phil Hughes)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:12:25 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: FYL, Seattle, WA

In article <1992Apr10.023215.29563@u.washington.edu> iho@cac.washington.edu writes:
>gilbert@mdd.comm.mot.com (John Gilbert) writes:

>> Instead, she won't be responsible for that, so she
>> wants the government to decide what is suitable (that is NOT a majority
>> value judgment, it is the VALUE of those few in control), ...

>Actually it is a "majority value judgment".  It just happens to be the
>way our government implements it.  We don't have a pure democracy, but
>the effect is not that far off.  If the controlling parties act contrary
>to the wishes of the majority, we/they (the majority) have the power
>(theoretically) to replace them with ones we like better.  Of course,
>this is different in practice, but I don't think we should get into
>the subject of what's wrong with our government.

Good theory but that isn't what happens in practice.  In the real
world, public opinion is swayed by money as well as small groups with
their own agendas.  The small groups have a large impact because they
are vocal and there are so many who elect to not get involved.  Money
is used primarily to advertise the opinion of those with money.

Take the bottle bill that died years back as an example.  The public
wanted it.  The soft drink industry did not.  So the soft drink
industry spent a lot of money to convince the public they didn't want
it.  Thus, the public paid the cost (in higher soft drink costs) of
convincing themselves that they didn't want a bottle bill.

If, instead of money, both sides of the issue received equal publicity
(say, 4 free hours of TV time where spokespeople could explain the
issue or there could be debates) as well as free print coverage I
expect we would have seen a different outcome.  When the side with the
money lies (um, well, distorts the truth :-) ) and the other side has
to produce an ad and pay to get it aired to present the other side we
have a problem.
-- 
Phil Hughes - FYL - 8315 Lk City Wy NE - Suite 207 - Seattle, WA 98115 
Phone: 206-526-2919 x74      Fax: 526-0803
E-mail: fyl@cpac.washington.edu or fyl@fylz.wa.com
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:43:16 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: University of Washington

dbj@cs.washington.edu (Dave Johnson) writes:

>Gee, my son Chubbo is getting awfully fat these days, and I know
>why.  It's because of all those nasty candy bars he eats.  Those things
>don't have any nutritive value, and they obviously have a bad effect
>on poor little Chubbo, so they're horrible and children shouldn't be
>able to buy them, so I think I'll get a law passed so that noone under
>the age of 18 can buy a candy bar.  Chubbo will slim down, become so
>popular he'll be elected class president, and I'll be so proud.

Ah, thank you for providing the perfect opportunity to demonstrate
my point.  If you and enough parents believe the same way, you can
get a law passed to that effect.  There is nothing morally or ethically
wrong or right about this, in my opinion.  Back to the music censoring
issue, I don't believe we have enough information to determine if the
majority of parents are in favor or against this.
-- 
Il Hwan Oh                    | "A university is a place where people pay
Computer Facilities Manager   | high prices for goods which they then
Univ. of Washington, Tacoma   | proceed to leave on the counter when
iho@cac.washington.edu        | they go out of the store." -- Loren Eisley
From: dans@atc.boeing.com (Dan Small)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: Requesting contractor/roofer references
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:21:18 GMT
Reply-To: dans@atc.boeing.com
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Boeing Computer Services

I had troubles last year with Mickey Moss Roofing.  I had just sold  my
house and needed to provided the buyer with a 5 year roof guarantee
certificate.  Mickey Moss  gave me an initial cleaning and spot repair
estimate of $350 for my shake roof.  They'd provide the certificate if I'd
agree to let them do this work.  After they came to do the job I
was advised that the initial estimator had made a mistake. -- it woud
take another $600 worth of work.  I grumbled, but said OK.  They did
that, but then said that more roof damage had been "discovered", they'd
be able to cut me a deal and guarantee a completed job for another
$900, even if it cost them more to do it.  Great deal.  At that point
they had ripped up so much of my roof that if I told them to take a
hike, I'd have had to have some other roofer come in and replace the
whole thing.  I was stuck between a rock and a cold, hard place.  The
$350 job ended up costing me $2000, and my roof looked like a patchwork
checker board.  I stongly suspect that the fact that I was obligated to
provide the buyer with a 5 year roof guarantee from a professional
roofer had a lot to do with the incremental increases in the job cost.
Mickey Moss knew I needed that certificate, and that I had little
choice but to go along with them.


--------------------------
Dan Small
INTERNET:  dans@atc.boeing.com
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: gilbert@mdd.comm.mot.com (John Gilbert)
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA
Distribution: seattle
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 02:45:11 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.023421.29715@u.washington.edu> iho@cac.washington.edu writes:

>This is exactly what she did.  She's prevented her children from buying
>albums she doesn't approve of.  The fact that other children in the state
>can't buy them either is merely an unfortunate (depending on your view of
>the matter) side-effect.

This gets more incredible by the post...

Now you are saying that (and I presume that you feel it was OK) she looked
after her own situation, and whatever happens to ANYONE else (ONE individual
family against ALL others) is simply an "unfortunate side effect"  ???

Like if my grandma is hard of hearing, I can play the opera for her with the
stereo cranked to 10 in the apartment, so she can hear, and the fact that
others are bothered by it would only be "an unfortunate side effect?"

What is going on here is that you hold the same values as this lady in this
case, so you are constructing arguments which sound generic that support her.
Either that, or you agree with the grandma analogy.

And besides, she didn't prevent her children from buying albums she doesn't
approve of.  She wasn't enough of a parent to make the analysis.  She
whined to the government so she wouldn't have to.

She doesn't even KNOW what her own children listen to!

That's probably why one of them came up to her and told her !!!

John

-- 
John Gilbert
gilbert@mdd.comm.mot.com
...!uunet!mdisea!gilbert
From: mnb@voodoo.boeing.com (Mike Burr)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Requesting contractor/roofer references
Date: 6 Apr 92 23:12:17 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Boeing Graphics project, Bellevue WA

Hi folks,

I would be interested in hearing any references (or warnings) for the
following...

    1.  Roofers who will do shake roofs

           Anybody used K.C. roofing company?

    2.  General contractors who do remodeling work (additions)

    3.  General contractors who build sunrooms


Thanks in advance,


Michael Burr   mnb@voodoo.boeing.com  | Boeing Computer Services, Bellevue WA
-- 
Michael Burr   mnb@voodoo.boeing.com  | Boeing Computer Services, Bellevue WA
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: fyl@fylz.wa.com (Phil Hughes)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Behind Censorship: The Assault on Civil Liberties
Keywords: TV KTPS
Date: 13 Apr 92 22:16:28 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: FYL

I just received a card from Paper Tiger Television.  It says:
   Behind Censorship: The Assualt on Civil Liberties
   This six part series from the Deep Dish Satellite Network is
   airing on the PBS affiliate station, KTPS.  This series
   includes the show _Mutiny on the Corporate Sponsorship_,
   produced by Paper Tiger Television.  Check local listings
   for times.
   Airing Dates 4/16-5/28

Deep Dish is an alternative satellite network.  There have had some
pretty interesting stuff in previous seasons which I have picked
off the satellite.  Local cable companies have carried some of it but
this is the first time I know of that it is on PBS in this area.
-- 
Phil Hughes - FYL - 8315 Lk City Wy NE - Suite 207 - Seattle, WA 98115 
Phone: 206-526-2919 x74      Fax: 526-0803
E-mail: fyl@cpac.washington.edu or fyl@fylz.wa.com
From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: what children can do
Date: 12 Apr 92 19:40:35 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mime-Version: 1.0

Do you liberals think that Nazis should be allowed to give children weapons
and tell them they need to go and kill `yids, commies, niggers, faggots,...'?
Or is it that `censorship' is alright when it offends the liberal agenda.

I note the howling mob of lefties who were calling for all sorts of nasty
things against General Schwartzkopf when he came to speak here.  Somehow this
doesn't suggest a commitment to individual freedoms to me.

Count me as one who believes that parents have the right to restrict what
their children may have access to, and have the right to pressure government
to restrict sales to children of certain particularly harmful items such as
tobacco, alcohol & other drugs, and other material that children are not yet
able to handle in a mature fashion.

Incidentally, I am just as opposed to handing out `holy bibles' to children in
public.  If parents wish to take their children to a cult meeting where such
is done, fine; but I don't want *my* kids given bibles without my consent.

It is one thing to argue about free access to adults of any material.  It is
quite another to argue about such for children.
From: il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:56:22 GMT
Reply-To: iho@cac.washington.edu
Distribution: seattle
Organization: University of Washington, Tacoma

gilbert@mdd.comm.mot.com (John Gilbert) writes:
> il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh) writes:

> >Actually, I do not hold the same values this lady does.  I doubt that
> >she and I hold a common opinion on too many issues.  I am normally
> >against censorship, but I think this is a special case.  This applies
> >only to children and I believe we need to support the parents' wishes
> >on this.

> You admitted earlier that you have not enough data on who is in the
> majority.  You have stated you believe we should act for the majority
> (I presume even on issues of thought, where "harm" is possibly non-existent,
> or certainly subjective).  Given these two facts alone I have trouble
> resolving the point your are trying to establish.

I don't believe that the governor and the other lawmakers in this state
are idiots.  Well, most of them are not utter imbeciles.  I'm fairly sure
that they're guessing that a majority of the parents in this state would
support the law, and that they're not that far off.  I'd be willing to
bet money that a significant number of parents in this state, if not a
majority, support the legislation.  Of course, we'll have to wait and see.
I'm pretty sure that this will be brought up on a ballot measure fairly
soon.

-- 
Il Hwan Oh                    | "A university is a place where people pay
Computer Facilities Manager   | high prices for goods which they then
Univ. of Washington, Tacoma   | proceed to leave on the counter when
iho@cac.washington.edu        | they go out of the store." -- Loren Eisley