From: chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney)
Subject: Re: Mario Cuomo on the "wrongness" of abortion 
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Distribution: world 
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 02:44:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan19.170654.2225@advtech.uswest.com> steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak) writes:
>
>It should be obvious, Math Whiz: I *admire* Steve Adams for being a real
>christian and *not forcing his religion down my throat via secular laws*.
>Not only is Steve a christian, but he's thoroughly versed in the bible
>(I notice you've quit arguing bible with him, Nyikos) and can point out
>you fanatics that laughably don't understand a damn thing about the
>book.  

Uh, well while you're right in your assessment of not forcing one's
religion down another's throat, Suzanne Forgach, in my opinion, is
also a real Christian. She stands firm on her Church's teachings (as
opposed to me, who stands quite independently), and just like she
smoked the last person who tried to say the Bible did not mention
preborn human life as relevant, using text references as proof, she is
extremely accurate with the Bible, probably more so than Adams.

And as for Peter Nyikos, he is no fanatic and he understands the Bible
WELL. People like Catholics for a Free Choice, if their point is that
"Jesus is Pro-Choice," have never even cracked open a Bible because if
they did they'd bite their tongues. Anyone who bases pro-choice on the
Bible, should bite their tongues and get an education.
(Then again, anyone who bases pro-life on the Bible, I would warn to
look out for that constitutional wall between Church and State, called
the First Amendment.) 

Besides, there are plenty of scientific arguments that'll do the job.
After all, someone who is not alive, cannot be growing and replicating
their own cells; someone who is not their own individual self, would
not have a different blood type at 3 weeks than their parents, much
less a different gender at fertilization; and anyone who's read past
the copyright page in a science book, knows that parasites, cancers
and offspring, are totally separate categories. 


>I have a friend named Brad who comes over and plays drums while I play
>guitar and feign rock stardom.  We talk a LOT about religion and
>politics.  He's told me more than once that I live a much more
>"christian" life than many christian acquaintences of his.

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STEVE NOVAK?! 
Oh, no, gimme a break and give you a clue! 
You, one of the most ranting and raving idiots that has ever tried to
win the Mark IRantandRave Kaufman Award! 
Tell your imaginary friend Brad I said "Elvis is Alive!" for me,
okay? 


>I was proud of his statement and of him.  Because I have a secret hankering 
>for religion, or need of approval from a christian?  No.  It's because
>he was the first fervent christian I'd talked with about volatile
>issues, yet he could recognize a self-avowed atheist as a person who was
>_as good as he is_.  We enjoy each other's company, and in our most
>heated discussions we always walk away as friends with no resentment.

I don't have any problems with atheists. In fact my worst problems
come from *certain* people on this net. I don't even have this many
enemies on IRC, and I damned sure have tons more allies and friends
there than I have enemies anywhere. 

Oh, and by the way, if you are an atheist, do you use the American
Dollar? I would indeed find it hard if I were an atheist, to purchase
goods with "In God We Trust" on the back of the currency in my
wallet.. 


>Brad and people like Steve Adams give me hope we can go back to being an
>America where good people, and FUCK their religion or lack of it, can live 
>side by side and ENJOY it.

I can agree with that. However, the religious right is no more
dangerous or numerous than the religious LEFT, which can be seen at
most animal rights, PETA lab-bombing, and treecutter-spiking rallies.


>People like you and Forgach and Liar Holtsinger and all the other
>hate-spewing little fascist children make me wish that religion didn't
>exist.  We wouldn't have that opiate of the masses, but at least most of
>us would be working together on this earthly life.

I prefer them (and Holtsinger is no liar - if he is then Susan Garvin
must be "Liar" in Martian) over you. At least THEY are honest and
up-front. People like Teddi, who bashed religion with their little .sig's
and then claim to be religiously tolerant, and who would snap like
some beast if someone printed a "Do the Jewish Rag" like the hypocrite
Teddi is, are the ones who really fuck up America. People like Susan
Garvin who has openly and clearly supported someone basing their
pro-choice stand on religion, and then who talk about separation of
church and state, are also extremely dangerous. Jesse Jackson and his
merry band of religious Leftists spend more time trying to lie and
find anti-semitism where it does not exist (like with Pat Buchanan),
than explaining their anti-semitism. ACT-UP and its record of
attacking Catholic Churches (and I still have articles about how they
did that), threatening ministers with death in San Francisco (that
finally made TV News), and their warnings that they will kill
Christians in Oregon had Amendment 9 passed.. they get off almost
scott-free. And YOU, mister RantandRave, Jr., then turn around and
tell us some people say you're more Christian than most. 

The fact is, if Suzanne and co. spew hate (which they never have),
they are at least up-front. We know what we are getting from them.
With people like YOUR friends, we had to watch as churches in San
Francisco had to go to the Supreme Court for their constitutional
right to choose who they hire or fire. It seems that some of your
LOVE-SPEWING liberals felt that the Church can have no stake in the
State, but that the State can regulate how the Church runs its own
internal affairs, like its hiring practices. But of course your
buddies were defeated in court. 

And with anti-Free Speech FASCISTS trying to make it illegal to
picket in front of clinics when it is perfectly legal to picket
anywhere else (hell, they even picket some military facilities and get
away with it), it only proves one thing:

Will America lose its freedoms to a few fanatic fascist Christians,
into which all dedicated Christians are unjustly lumped (like Suzanne), 
or will America lose its freedoms to an army of smiling, love-spewing
liberals and religious leftists, who attack under the cover of media
blackouts, lies and good words (all of which cover their fascist
actions)? 


Actually, Mr. Novak, you should like Russia before it fell. It was the
most atheistic nation in the world and religion never was a problem
there. 


>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>| Steve Novak |    |"Wacker the K"| 
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>		    |A bastard today.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Of course I put that in myself because
it is widely believed that Mr. Novak
deletes this part from his .sig before
posting to this newsgroup. :)  


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