HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tony@cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Mahler 7
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:48:06 GMT
Reply-To: tony@cns.nyu.edu
Organization: New York University

In article 20928@kadsma.kodak.com, pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek) writes:

> >(and also
> >for the recording, which has more atmosphere and clarity, even though it
> >is analog).
> 
> I would think "because it's analog". Has anyone yet heard a digital
> recording with any natural-sounding ambience?
> 
> Don Pajerek

Oh, dear. This argument gets hashed out regularly and acrimoniously in
rec.audio. But the answer is "yes, of course". Try the Solti/Chicaco Mahler
2, for a closely-related example. The ambience in a recording doesn't depend
on the way the sound is stored on tape, but on the hall and the way the
engineers do the microphone placement and mixing. Properly reproduced
analog and digital recordings can sound equally good to me. If digital
recordings sound consistently worse to you than analog, I would suspect
a problem somewhere in your playback equipment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
					Tony Movshon

Internet:  movshon@nyu.edu		Howard Hughes Medical Institute
					Center for Neural Science
					New York University
Phone:	   (212) 998-7880		4 Washington Place, room 809
Fax:	   (212) 995-4183		New York, NY 10003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Who does Tchaikovsky well?
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 01:01:36 GMT

andrey@cco.caltech.edu (Andre T. Yew) writes:
: gr@st-andrews.ac.uk (Gavin Ramsay) writes:
: 
: >In article <1993Jan26.035008.25596@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tom@astro.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky) writes:
: >>
: >>I am in particular interested in good performances of his 5th and 6th
: >>Symphonies.  Yes, I have the Penguin guide, but (sigh) whenever I go
: >>to the CD store, there are always tantalizing things (which are not in
: >>the guide).
: >For truly great interpretations of the above, try Mravinsky and the
: >Leningrad Phil. on DG. For a more modern performance (not that there
: >is anything wrong with the DG '60's sound), try Jansons and the 
: >Oslo Phil.on Chandos.
: 
: 	I second this -- both sets are way beyond any other.

I can't say I care much for Jansons's Pathetique, it was a major
disappointment after quite superb versions of 4 & 5.

There is a more recent live Mravinsky 6 on Erato - it's quite superb.
One much-touted version that I think is *totally* overrated is Pletnev
on Virgin. The Gramophone went overboard, and at least 3 of their
reviewers put it in their best of the year. What's the matter, are
these guys going deaf - or, more likely, senile? Fanfare also loved
it, but the ARG (YES!) savaged it. At least I know I'm not alone. I'm
still waiting to hear the Bernstein, but I'll be surprisedd if it
outdoes Mravinsky II.

--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Star Trek-the opera? (was Re: the Met's "Semiramide"
From: dskeeler@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Dennis S. Keeler)
Date: 22 Jan 93 19:49:59 -0500
Organization: Miami University

In article <1993Jan21.233237.18487@news.columbia.edu>, km34@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Keith Moulton) writes:
> 	I am so disappointed that the New York City Opera could not work out
> a deal with the Star Trek folks to put out 'Star Trek-the Opera.'  I forget
> the composer's name, but it's completely finished.  My understanding is there
> was a disagreement over rights/royalties, etc.  Here is an opera that could be
> done in Swahili, and everyone would _still_ know what was going on.

        Who wrote "Star Trek-the Opera"? What language is it in? Has the
libretto been published? Any information would be appreciated. I'd love to
learn more about this marriage of two of my favorite pastimes (which I never
thought of putting together).
________________________________________________________________________________
Dennis S. Keeler                |  "Common sense is that thin veneer of
Miami University                |    prejudice we acquire before the
DSKEELER@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu  |    age of 17." - Albert Einstein
DSKEELER@miavx1.bitnet          |
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: icking@gmd.de (Werner Icking)
Subject: Re: Two questions about violin......
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 12:35:35 GMT

In <1993Jan28.112615.21854@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> wing@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (**Raymond Chan**) writes:

>	What is the use of the piece of metal which players sometimes put in
>near the 'arc' of the violin? Is there any specical name for this and what
>is the notation in the score?

mute, daempfer (german), sordino (ital.),   annotated as  con sordino  and
senza sordino    (or mutes on, mutes off). It modifies the sound (and
makes it more piano)

Normally its made out of wood and put on top of the bridge. Others are
made from some plastic with heavy metal in it and can be moved from the
"anchor" of the strings to the brigde if requested by "mutes on". The
principle is that the bridge cannot as easily swing as usual.

The bridge is constructed:

strings:        G   D   A   E
              +---------------+
         A    |               |    B
              +------   ------+
bridge               \ /
                      v
              +---------------+
              |               |
              |  +---------+  |
              +--+         +--+
---------------------------------------- top of the corpus of the violin

The principle of the brigde is that A goes up and down whilst B goes
down and up. It's an amplifier :-)  If you change the mass e.g. by a
mute you modifiy the "color" of the tone.

>	Secondly, what is the name of method of playing violin using your
>finger instead of the bow? Why does composer use this and when did it start?
>How is the notation of this method denotes in the score?

pizzicato. starts at  "pizz.", ends with  "arco or "con arco" (arco=bow).

A lot of other notations e.g. "con legno" to use the woodden-part of
the bow to play on the strings ... and many many more.

Werner
--
Werner Icking        Werner.Icking@gmd.de        (+49 2241) 14-2443     __o
GMD - Gesellschaft fuer Mathematik und Datenverarbeitung mbH          _`\<,_
Schloss Birlinghoven, P.O.Box 1316, D-5205 Sankt Augustin, Germany   (_)/ (_)
                             "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod." ~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: source of quotes query
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:29:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.043417.12152@osf.org>, dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks) writes:
> coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
> >> : "The English don't like music much but they really like
> >> : the noise it makes."  (OWTTE)
> >> 
> >> Sir Thomas Beecham, this one I'm sure about.
> >
> >And this one *does* sound like Elgar. :-)
> 
> No, but: "Blast the B[ritish] P[ublic] -- they have no souls, hearts or
> minds worth a thought..." (letter to Jaeger, 16 June 1900)

I didn't mean it sounded like something Elgar *said*.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: packer@delphi.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Re: I need CD recommendations of Bach's Sonatas and Partitas Vln Solo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:38:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.193605.65@sequent.com>, danielh@sequent.com (Daniel Hobbs) writes...
>Perlman (Angel EMI) -- the best, IMHO.  Sound is vibrant, technique is 
>	great.


I heard a his recording of the A Minor on the radio last week and
I can agree with the first assertion, but his intonation is kind
of rough.
From: ceb@dbrus.Unify.Com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Brahms and Tosca (Was Re: Brahms Basher Repents)
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:02:05 GMT
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization

In article <1993Jan25.125143@axion.bt.co.uk> efosbroo@axion.bt.co.uk (Elisabeth Fosbrooke) writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan23.153030.12798@hubcap.clemson.edu>, jtbell@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jon Bell) writes:
>> 
>> When I started listening to classical music in high school, I didn't care
>> for the Brahms symphonies either,...  Now he's one of my favorites.  So
>> maybe Brahms is one of those composers that some people simply have to
>> "grow up to" or something...
>
> When I was in my teens I listened to records with an older friend (>25) who
> was very systematically building up a huge library.  His theory was that
> you start listening with Beethoven and Tchaikowsky and work up to Brahms
> gradually - he was intending to research for the Brahms section of his
> library by the time he was 30. 
>
> I've finally got there - at least, I'm enthusiastically looking forward to
> singing chorus in the Deutsches Requiem at the Bury Festival with Richard
> Hickox!

Or it could be "grow up *with*".  My father had a boxful of assorted classic-
al records which he'd acquired not because he had any feeling for music, but
because he believed that if you listen to classical music people will think
you're upper-class.  As soon as I was old enough to be trusted with the rec-
ord player, about age 8 or 9, Daddy let me play any of these records I liked.
For me, one instant hit was Brahms's 1st Symphony, while the excerpts from
various operas were soon studiously ignored.  I suppose you could choose to
make a heavy meal of Brahms or merely let it slip into your ears and let it
jangle around in your brain.  If you're going to make a heavy meal of it then
of course you'll need to work to develop your appetite.

Apropos of dull opera, someone here mentioned a version of Tosca in which the
soprano gives something close to a real shriek instead of the usual cadenza
imitating a polite and disinterested cry (I assume this is when she throws
herself from the battlements?).  I'm contemplating buying my second opera
(Turandot was 1st and is much appreciated), and would appreciate someone
emailing me the specs of the "real shriek" Tosca.  Please make sure that
your mailer uses the address below, and --

Thanks!


Carrie		ceb@rechenau.unify.com	x6244
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|   "There is less to this than meets the eye."		- Tallulah Bankhead   |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Re: Schipa, Gigli, and Tagliavini
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 06:19:46 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.050005.1912@walter.bellcore.com>, hsong@ardour.bellcore.com (G. Hugh Song) writes:
>Whenever I hear the voices of tenors of good ol'days, I get puzzled.
>How much would they be appraised if they were living these days.
>Caruso, Schipa, Gigli, ...
>My point is that I do not really know how their voices really sound
>like.  Their voices are heard these days by the recordings made in the 30's.
>Such recordings all lack low and high frequency components.   THe 
[lotsa stuff deleted]

On one hand, you're right:  there is no way for us to know exactly what
Caruso sounded like (though I think recording made after the 1930s do give
a much closer picture).  Martinelli is one example of a singer who 
recorded both acoustically and electrically - and the results I find to be
very different.

On the other hand, you seem to assume a voice is judged entirely by its
sound.  What makes Caruso, Gigli, etc. great is not just their natural
sounding voices but their musicality - what they do with it.  Find
Caruso's recording of "Una furtiva lagrime" from Feb. 1, 1904 - it's a
very primitive recording, accompanied by a piano, on two sides - yet
if you can push yourself to get beyond the surface noise, you will hear
an incredible bit of singing and musicianship.  I have yet to hear a 
recording of Domingo or Pavarotti that combines intensity of feeling with
the enormous amount of close attention to every note, to their meaning,
phrasing, intensity, pacing.
Try it.  Music isn't performed like this anymore.

Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: will@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (William Sadler)
Subject: Re: Define "Well Tempered"
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:06:56 GMT

In <8938@orbit.cts.com> jseboldt@pnet51.orb.mn.org (John Seboldt) writes:

>Sorry, but Bach is a bit early to look toward as the "father of equal
>temperament".  Think later -- early Romantics.  Probably not until the
>chromatic ramblings of Liszt, Wagner, and their followers do we have true
>equal temperament firmly established (and the duller-sounding piano, where the
>rounder timbre more easily hides what one has lost in equal temperament), as
>the tyranny of tonality is slowly but surely undermined.

"Early Romantics" would be Dussek, Gossec, Clementi, Hummel, Beethoven etc.
I don't think that their music is any more particularly in need of
evenly tempered tuning than Haydn or Bach. 

For that matter, I'm not sure that there is anything in the music of
Wagner or Liszt that particularly demands equal temperament.  The 
difference in piano timbre is partially due to the preference of the
English style piano over the Viennese, the latter having a brighter,
more nasal sound. 

I'm not sure when equal temperament became standardized, but I wonder if it
had something to do with the large numbers of pianos finding their way into
the homes of the bourgoise classes in the latter part of the 19th c?  All
those pianos needed people to tune them...

I have always been under the impression that equal temperament was a
20th c phenomenon.

Will

--
***************************************************************************
*   _______________\|/_      Will Sadler     will@cica.indiana.edu        * 
*   Laser 44888    /|\                       sadler@iubacs.bitnet         *     
***************************************************************************
From: Michael Roman <mrr1@cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Marines commercial
Date: 26 Jan 1993 02:40:33 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.84.219.225
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d17
X-XXDate: Mon, 25 Jan 93 21:45:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.030733.8518@athena.mit.edu> Master,
debrown@athena.mit.edu writes:
>Hi. Does anyone know what music is played during the commercial
>for the Marines with the chess pieces fighting each other.

If anyone knows the answer, please post it.

Mike Roman
mrr1@cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: km34@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Keith Moulton)
Subject: Re: Opera&Hollywood
Reply-To: km34@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Keith Moulton)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:40:56 GMT


	My previous post got screwed up, but you get the idea...
Keith Moulton.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: I need CD recommendations of Bach's Sonatas and Partitas Vln Solo
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:14:54 GMT

inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid) writes:
: >From: xilin@northstar.dartmouth.edu ()
: 
: >Does any one like Heifetz, at all?  I found him to be too much less musical 
: >than technical.  And  I hate his performance of the Bach's Sonatas and 
: >Partitas, though I have a set of his CD.
: 
: 
: >Xilin
: 
:  Yes, I like Heifetz - he _was_ undoubtedly one of the best technicians
: ever to play the violin (maybe even the best ever to record - there's 
: the famous story of a violinist and pianist attending one of Heifetz'
: early concerts in the US. Some way into the concert, the violinist starts
: to shift on his seat, pull at his collar and eventually mutters
:  `Getting hot in here'
:  to which the pianist replied, `Only for violinists').

It was Heifetz's debut in New York (Carnegie Hall?). News of his
European triumphs had crossed the Atlantic so everybody who was
everybody in the musical world was there. The pianist in question was
the great Leopold Godowsky, I have a feeling the violinist was Carl
Flesch, but I'll have to check this with my reference books. The
alternative version has Gododowsky's reply as 'not for pianists'.


--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hsong@ardour.bellcore.com (G. Hugh Song)
Subject: Schipa, Gigli, and Tagliavini
Organization: Bellcore
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 05:00:05 GMT

Whenever I hear the voices of tenors of good ol'days, I get puzzled.
How much would they be appraised if they were living these days.

Caruso, Schipa, Gigli, ...
My point is that I do not really know how their voices really sound
like.  Their voices are heard these days by the recordings made in the 30's.
Such recordings all lack low and high frequency components.   THe 
voice sound becomes contaminated with too much nasal sound in that kind
of condition.  However, I do not know how correct this analysis  is.  
That is my point.   Did voices of Schipa and Gigli contain a voice 
quality with a lot of nasal sound indeed?   I think that Tagliavini in the
sixties had a very similarly sounding voice to these two old tenors.
His recordings were made with stereo.   I like his voice.  But I think that
people consider that kind of voice is out of fashion nowadays.   However, I
sometimes feel that most music critiques are very generous on old singers.

Of course, I can identify a true nasal voice of Jan Pearse (sp?).

Among dramatic tenor voices, there are quite a difference among
Caruso, Del Monaco, and Domingo.   People say,  "Caruso is
"legendary".   So he must be much greater than others."   But who
knows.  50 years later.  Domingo's voice will be again legendary, too.
Me?  I like Del Monaco's voice the most with all his roughness for 
Italian dramatic tenor roles.

	Hugh
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Frank Martin
Date: 23 Jan 93 12:13:15 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <barrasam-210193150750@129.194.17.42>, barrasam@uni2a.unige.ch (Ambroise BARRAS) writes:
> 
> A swiss record company, called "Cascavel" (VEL),
> issued on CD a lot of Frank Martin's works, and one of them 
> particularly splendid, the a cappella dopple choir mass, by
> Michel Corboz and his "Ensemble vocal de Lausanne".

We in Schola Cantorum of Oxford have recorded it too; it won a critic's
choice-of-the-year recommendation in Gramophone last year, and the swines who
write the Penguin Guide didn't even mention it. 
-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   For Sale: Posts in British Government. Suit
wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk    |   outgoing American. Highest bids accepted.
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Should I join BMG?
Date: 28 Jan 1993 11:23:21 -0500
Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu

In article <C1KLCt.Mzz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> smitra@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Sami Mitra) writes:
>In article <1k71niINNqj9@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:
>>name a few. The BMG club has quite a few Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, although 
>>no Franzoesische HM, Teldec, Philips, DG, etc.
>
>This is not correct, as in the past (when I used to be a member) I
>have bought Teldec, Philips and DG recordings from the club. 

Darn, I was done in by my own lousy punctuation. I meant:
"the club has DHM, although no HM; it also has Teldec, Philips, etc."




-- 

	Francois Velde
From: ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: re: Anyone heard of Gliere?
Date: 21 Jan 1993 16:15:24 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

I finally got around to catching up on my news, and I noticed this subject
line from Deryk B.  The article was unavailable, but I thought I'd respond 
anyway.

All I know about Gliere is that he wrote a very cool concerto for Horn and
Orchestra.  It's recently been re-released on Philips (It was out of print
for a while) and it is definitely worth picking this up.

Adam


-- 
   /|\  /|~\   Adam M. Ronthal BR'94    |    ronthal-adam@yale.edu	
  /-| \/ |_/   P.O. Box 607 Yale Stn.   |    ronthal@minerva.cis.yale.edu
 /  |    | \   New Haven, CT   06520    |    ronthal@pop.cis.yale.edu
From: jacob@max.cc.brandeis.edu ( )
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: tonal value of chords and harmonic series [?]
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:25:46 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University Math Department

In article <CB.93Jan27125939@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Vance Maverick writes:
>
>   |> according to rameau's model the chord
>   |> C-E-G-A, i.e. a major triad with an added 6th should be a VI chord,
>   |> lying on A whereas everbody knows it is a tonic chord lying on C
>
>   Is there a smiley missing here?
>
>I'd say the meaning of that chord depends on the context.  Adding a
>sixth (the kind of sixth the poster meant) to a major triad has been a
>staple in jazz and MOR pop for decades, to the point where sometimes the
>triad's fifth can even be removed and the chord still "reads" as the
>major triad rather than the inverted relative minor (in his example, C
>major with some added color, rather than A minor).  [Note: this has
>never been used much in rock, but the final chord of the Beatles' "She
>Loves You" does it.]  But in the context of common-practice classical
>music, the chord he names would be a VI, with its 7th and inverted;
>notated VI 5-6 on a bass C.  These functions are reinforced by the
>previous harmonic motion, so we hear them in these ways.

The meaning of that chord and of any other chord depends on the context.
That's true. But I believe there is an "out of context", "intrinsic" value
too for some chords. Play C-E-G-A on the piano. Do you feel the need to move
to somewhere else? If not, then we must be dealing with a tonic chord. Now,
does it sound like you're in minor? Then the tonic can't be A but C.

Now if I play B-E-F. I feel I've begun something that sounds like a V-I
cadence. To me the "intrinsic value" of B-E-F is to be a V chord (notice the
fundamental is not stated). That doesn't mean that in context this couldn't
be, say, a II chord in minor.

But, yes, we basically agree, the function of a chord depends on the context.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jtbell@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jon Bell)
Subject: Re: Sibelius suggestions?
Organization: Presbyterian College, Clinton SC
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:03:53 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.165953.2003@ifi.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> snripe@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Sailendra Nripendra) writes:

>I wondered why nobody suggested the incidental music THE TEMPEST;
>the prelude part (op. 109?) is an extraordinary piece of orchestral
>music. 

There have been several recordings of the prelude and the suites from
"The Tempest", but anyone who's interested in Sibelius should check out
BIS's recent premiere recording of the complete score.  All the numbers
are arranged in their proper sequence, and the songs are performed by
soloists and a chorus.  I wonder what Shakespeare would think if he
could hear his songs in Finnish...

Jon Bell / Physics & C.S. / Presbyterian College / Clinton SC USA

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical