Newsgroups: alt.polyamory
Subject: Re: Need opinions/advice...
From: woodhous@latcs2.lat.oz.au (Joe P Woodhouse)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 05:57:30 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

   Hi Shalimar...

   I'm a bit behind with my news, so forgive any redundancies...I *did* try
to skim all the followups so I don't just repeat the already good advice
given you...

   I've also tried to trim the original article some, but even so this is
a rather long reply...


anonymus+264@godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu (shalimar) writes:
>My
>thanks to Jennifer and Joe and whoever else was involved in getting this
>group started back in the "old days."

   Well, (credit where it's due) it was mainly Jenn doing all the work... 8->


>My current situation is that I have only one SO, and he's far away (it's
>been an LDR since the beginning, about two years ago).

   Hmm, did the r'ship *begin* as a long-distance one? I think that could
make quite a difference...


>We are very close, and we have both thought of our relationship as primary
>all this time.

   Ah, that's quite important. If you both have accepted the notion of the
other as a "primary", then there are indeed many obligations you have to
each other...


>I haven't had any other serious or long-
>lasting relationships during this time, because I haven't met anyone that
>I like well enough for that

   Someone else has already made the good point that you should be wary of
looking for a new r'ship just to address the needs you have with *another*
r'ship...a new partner won't fix any problems you're having with an existing
one, I'd think.


>I feel that I *need* another relationship,
>because I don't get everything I want out of this LDR.

   Well, sure, another r'ship might give you some things that you aren't
currently getting...but they won't change the fact that you aren't getting
them *from Bill*.


>I don't know how to deal with this recent depression.  I'd like to hear what
>some of you think about this, and if you have any advice for coping.

   I've had similar problems at times. I'm currently in the same country
as only one of my loves...having a love here makes my situation different
to yours, but it *does* sometimes get wearying being in LDR's, yes.

   Personally, because on eof the prime tenets of the way I approach being
Poly is that all my r'ships are *independent*, I feel that living with a
love here hasn't really altered my experiences with my long-distance loves.
If I'm missing *them*, wishing I could be there with *them*, having others
here doesn't make that any better.


>Also:  What kind of "rules" do you have about foregoing spending time with
>one SO in order to give attention to another SO who needs you?

   I put it like this - communication is an obligation up to the point
where there's a better reason not to communicate.

   This means that I'm relying on my partners to let me know if they are
particularly wanting/needing me at any moment. I can't make the best
decisions unless they let me know relevant information.

   I don't really have a *rule* about this sort of thing - I tend to be
a bit utilitarian. If everything's the same to me, and there is a conflict
between seeing various people, I just try to do what seems right. So far, 
in all my Poly r'ships, it's never been *too* big a problem...but there
*will* occasionally be situations where *someone* has to miss out. If I
really can't avoid that, I first make it obvious that it *is* just a matter
of circumstances, and second I try to make it all even out in the long run.


>[story of ringing Bill & needing him, but he & Ann "might be getting
> together"]

   As others have said, he *does* seem to have acted insensitively here,
*especially* since you say you both regard each other as a primary partner.
He's neglected a definite need of a primary for a tentative plan with a
secondary...which of course is hurtful.

   This *does* assume however that he *did* understand your situation, and
that his plans with Ann were as tentative as he suggested they were.


>I know how *I* would handle it:  I would tell the SO that's not
>having a problem that my other SO is having a problem and needs me, and that
>we can't get together tonight.

   That's basically what I've done in similar circumstances, and it seems
really to be the only way of minimising the total pain involved for
everyone concerned. I would try to emphasise to the partner I had to rush
away from that it *was* an emergency situation, and make some sort of
committment to "making it up to them" (since even though it's for an
excellent reason, it is slightly discourteous to do them out of even a
tentatively planned occasion). But that's just a quibble. 8->


>I was hurt that Bill didn't handle it that
>way.  Am I being unreasonable in wanting such a thing? 

   Hell, I don't think so! 8->


>I'd also like to know what you think about Bill's trying to be poly with a
>non-poly person (Ann).

   A recipe for disaster. One might ask what she thought she was doing,
getting involved with someone who was Poly and had another partner. (You
do say the circumstances of their getting together were less than good,
perhaps he didn't make his situation clear?).

   Someone (Sonja?) brought the point up of the mono partner "stealing"
the Poly one away. I've found this happens quite a bit - a mono person
gets involved with a Poly person, initially "putting up with" their
Polyness, all the while harboring a secret agenda of "converting" their
partner as soon as they feel they have enough significance to start exerting
some leverage...

   I think this is particularly despicable - it's of the same order as
covert affairs that these people usually profess to deplore. 


>I've never met her because she has no desire to
>meet me.  She basically denies that I exist (and doesn't want me to exist).

   Sounds like a nasty pice of work!

   Possibly Bill has been shying away from the more obvious manifestations
of being Poly with her? As many people have said, it's best when one's
partners all like each other, but I insist as a minimum that they be
*civil* to each other. (Not that it's an issue, one way or another I
haven't tended to get involved with people who didn't get along well with
each other - the one time this *did* happen was with someone who'd been
less than honest about how comfy they were with being Poly, and harboured
a lot of jealousy towards another partner).


>I guess I can't understand why he's continued so long in a
>relationship with someone who can't handle the situation and who tries to
>deny that I exist.

   Fair enough! It would seem contrary to the spirit of being Poly, at 
least by my definitions anyway.


>BTW, when Bill first started seeing Ann, he did it in such a way that I
>felt hurt and betrayed.  I don't want to go into details about this (it's
>very complicated).  It's long in the past, he and I have worked through
>my feelings about that situation and he will never do things that way again,
>but maybe I've never really gotten over it?  Maybe I still resent Ann in
>some way because of the way things started off?  Maybe I still resent Bill
>for doing things the way he did?  Maybe I'm afraid that he'll do the same
>thing again someday?

   It sounds to me as if you're already asking the right questions of
yourself...you *do* have legitimate grievances with several aspects of your
current situation, you are quite justified in being less than happy I 
would say.


>I'm not sure; I was wondering what some of you think
>about this.  Have you had such experiences, and if so, how did you manage
>to put the pain and resentment behind you?

   First off, it sounds as if the r'ship between Bill & Ann is a bomb
waiting to explode. It's been a hard lesson for me, but in a collision
between monogamy and Polyamory, the people involved rarely come out well.

   Secondly, if you are both still adhering to the idea of a primary
r'ship that had additional secondaries - Bill is failing to fulfil some
obligations here. I would think in this model, the simple fact of *Ann's*
attitudes towards *you* would be grounds for "disqualification", as it
were. (I'm not certain about this, seeing as I don't use the "primary"
model anyway, but it seems close to what others have said).

   Lastly - don't give yourself a hard time for feeling bad about this.
It's not some failure of you as a "properly Poly" person. These are
legitimate problems.

   I'm not sure what I have in the way of actual advice...perhaps, just
let Bill know all this, in as non-judgemental and non-manipulative a
way as you can? Possibly even show him your post to us - it identifies
clearly what you feel are the problems, and how you feel about them...


>Sorry if the tone of this post is dark and depressing, but I'm depressed
>and feeling so lonely lately.  :-(

   Hey, dark & depressed is OK too, you know...it doesn't all have to be
sweetness & light.

   [hugs] if appropriate.

Joe.

  / Joe Woodhouse        / I'm just a sweet bisexual...   / Hello, there.
 / Latrobe University   /    (think - Rocky Horror)      / Threesomes are fun.
/ Melbourne, Australia / Music. Magic. Mathematics. Me. / I like cats! (miaow!)
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