From: Harry
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: ...!!!...!!!...
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:36:11 GMT

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PLEASE NOTE:
  This is a response I received from afm@eniac.seas.upenn.edu. He has
since asked me to post the response to tpm. So here it is. Obviously,
the opinions which follow are not my won.
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From afm@eniac.seas.upenn.edu Mon Dec 14 13:41:53 1992
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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 13:41:47 EST
From: afm@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Santa Clause...)
Posted-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 13:41:47 EST
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To: hm@cs.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
992Dec12.164846.17823@das.harvard.edu>
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Cc:
Status: RO

In article <1992Dec14.152931.15510@cs.brown.edu> Harry Mamaysky writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec10.130011.25255@bernina.ethz.ch> kessi@laplace.math.ethz.ch (Alain Kessi) writes:
>|>
>|> In article <1992Dec9.190129.2357@cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>|> |> In article <4601@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>|> If Israel is not in the business of territorial conflict, then why doesn't it
>|> just, like they were told by some UN resolution (was it 242, or is that another
>|> one), get their armed forces out of the territories they occupied in 1967. The
>|> Israelis might not consider this a territorial conflict, but the Palestinians
>|> certainly do. They'd rather administer and rule themselves, even if there's no
>|> guarantee that the country would be a model of democracy or economic efficiency,
>|> seeing the surrounding countries. Even if some Palestinians fear that they will
>|> have to fight for their rights even after a Palestinian state exists, virtually
>|> none of them want Israel to stay there.
>
>This is an incredibly difficult situation from the Israeli point of
>view. I really can not see the feasability of a solution as simple as
>the one you suggest. I have not expressed any opinions over this land
>issue, because I honestly do not know of any good solution. The only
>thing which I see as presently appropriate is for representatives of
>the two people to talk to each other. This is happening. Hopefully,
>with God's help, these talks will be productive. It is certainly
>better than pointless violence.
>
>|> Do they not? Well, the case you mention may be too specific to find an instance
>|> of. They do prevent school kids from going to school once in a while, though.
>|> They also put a siege on Al Najah University (was a year back, I think) in order
>|> to inforce the Military Order that was supposed to end the independance of the
>|> Palestinian universities by giving the military commander the right to prevent
>|> a professor or other staff member from working there. They also prevent people
>
>Palestinian universities have traditionally been hot beds of PLO
>activity. The universities acted as PLO meeting place, arms store
>houses and so on. Youth were being incited to physically attack
>Israeli soldiers and civilians. Israel could (can) not possibly allow
>things like this to happen with in its borders. In my opinion, Israel
>has been overwhelmingly tolerant of the anti-Israeli activity which
>went (and still goes) on in Palestinian controlled places of
>education. Perhaps if Israel was stricter here the new generation of
>Plaestinian youth would not have been as deeply affected by PLO
>propaganda and would not have grown up with such hatred of Israel. How
>man lives (Arab and Israeli) could this policy have saved? Countless,
>I would say.
>
The Israeli Civil Administration of the IDF closed down ALL educational
institutions in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1987-1980. That included
Kindergarten (sorry for spelling) as well as elementary, preperatory and secon-
dary schools. The schools were completely closed down for a year, and then
frequently closed during the next years. I do not think that by not allowing
Palestinian students to go to their schools, the Israeli Government can stop
them from being exposed to what you call PLO propaganda. That is simply because
IF they want to pick it up, they can just walk down the streets of the West
Bank and the Gaza Strip and see, hear and participate in the so called
propaganda. I do agree that the universities have been politically inclined and
may still be, but closing down all the schools from kindergarden is a crime,
because nobody has the right to FORCE a people not to get an education. In
fact I believe it is the worse kind of opression.

>|> from getting a telephone (a friend's family in Al Khalil (Hebron) is still waiting
>|> for one since 1976). These are not killings I mentioned. That's because I think
>|> that living under humiliating conditions is comparably annoying to the threat of
>|> getting killed one day. On top of that, of course, Palestinians do live under that
>|> threat of getting killed. The fact is that because of the humiliating conditions
>|> (plus historical reasons etc.) the Palestinians resent the Israeli presence, which
>|> is bound to make the Israeli soldiers nervous, which again pushes them into
>|> awkward situations where they shoot innocent Palestinians. I would not want to
>|> be an Israeli soldier in the occupied territories, I can tell you. The only
>|> solution is for Israel to withdraw.
>
>I don't know if you have actually been in Judea and Samaria to see how
>the people of whom you speak live. I have. What I saw was certainly
>not on the level of life we are used to in America. However, these
>poor living condition of which you speak are largely self-imposed. I
>talked to many Israelis who said that they went to Arab markets in
>Judea and Samaria, that they brought their cars to Arab mechanics,
>that they went to Arab restaraunts - all before the Intifadah once
>again reared its ugly head. Despite all this, I would still claim that
>these Palestinians live better than their Arab counter>Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and so on.

The self-imposed harsh life you are talking about is the Palestinian sacrafice
for gaining their independance, and gaining their BASIC civil rights as
declared by the United Nations to have their own country and their own
identity.

>Of course, the squalid conditions under which Palestinians are forced
>to live in refugee camps in Jordan are completely disgraceful. My God,
>if Arab in Jordan (and other Arab countries) care so much for their
>Palestinian brethren, then why are the Palestinians forced to live in
>these camps in Jordan? Why aren't these people allowed to live as do
>the other Jordanians? The Palestinians who live in Israel have a FAR
>better life than their counterparts in Arab countries. It would seem
>that their fellow Arabs are more than willing to use the Palestinians
>as political guinny pigs to make some point about what Israel has put
>these people through. Of course, Israel has not put these people
>through nearly so much as their fellow Arabs have. God, if they wanted
>to, the Arab countries could tomorrow find more than enough land
>for all the Palestinians to live on. This could easily put an end to
>all the suffering that is now going on. The Arabs have so MUCH land.
>Why do they not absorb their fellow Arabs into their midst? Perhaps
>their love of the Palestinians is not nearly so strong as their hate
>of Israel.
>

The Palestinians living in camps in the West Bank and the Gaza strip have
just as worse living conditions than those in the neighbouring Arab countries.
Those conditions in the camps is what forces Palestinians to fight for their
OWN country, because those people in the camps are entitled to have their own
country and live as normal human beings rather than animals in camps!


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