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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 17:51:39 -0500
From:         PHARRIS@UMKCVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      A reformed Death Penalty

Hello, I have just recently signed on to this list and have been intrigued
with the discussions that are going on. I would like to make a comment
on the existing death penalty. I won many debate rounds with my argument
that a person convicted to death should be allowed only two appeals.
At the conclusion of the second appeal, if the original ruling is upheld
the criminal should be executed the minute they step out of the
courtroom. I know that sounds like a radical idea, and I don't consider
myself a radical, I just get so angry when I hear of inmates being on
death row for fourteen, fifteen years or longer. Not only are they
costing the system well over $20,000 a year to house them on death row,
they are also wasting valuable court time with their constant appeals. I
believe that our system needs to be overhauled. Our justice system has
been in place for well over 200 years. How can you possibly argue that
the status quo is doing enough for the types of crimes and criminals
that exist in the modern times. I also think that the death penalty be
instated for repeat offenders, if you rob a bank, or rape, or molest a
child, or steal a car and  get convicted twice for the same offense, you
should be considered a person who cannot be rehabilitated.The same goes
for offenders who have a record as long as their arms. I know the
constitution protects against "cruel and unusual punishments" but they
are not cruel or unusual compared to the way that they are used in other
countries. In El Salvador, a first offense drunk driving incident is
punishable by death. Needless to say, El Salvador does not have a drunk
driving problem. Imagine, just scaring the epople a bit would do much
more good than our jail system is doing to rehabilitate criminals. Of
course, it should start in the home with the parent(s) teaching the
kids. But the government should be doing something about the growing
crime problem. Even if it means taking drastic measures to do it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
: Paul Harris              :
: PHARRIS@UMKCVAX1         :
: PHARRIS@VAX1.UMKC.EDU    :
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: I will sail my vessel    :
: Til the river runs dry   :
: Like a bird upon the wind:
: These waters are my sky. :
:                          :
:       from -The River-   :
:       Garth Brooks       :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Original_To:  BITNET%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:13:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: _Wings of Eagles_

>an ignorant, and pretty much unthinking 8th Grader (God, I'm glad you don't
>have biases against age....).  My memory of the book is rather hazy.

8th grade? DID YOU SAY 8TH GRADE?

i think i'm going to cry.

- linda

>-Martin
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re:      To Those Who Voted For Carter
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 21:24:37 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <POLITICS%92101309071426@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>,         "Carl 
A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET> writes:
>    If you are complaining about the economy and how we need a change
> and should vote Bush out, then why did you vote for Carter *twice* after
> he ruined the economy?  Carter did not improve things, but you voted for
> him again, so obviously you are a hypocrite.  You don't care about the
> economy, just democracts in the White House.

My opinion on who should be president was nopt consulted *either* time Carter
ran.  Next?
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: RE: New kid on the block...
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:12:00 GMT
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        I like that.  We went right from human sacrifice to "New Kid on the
Block".  I wonder if there is any hidden message in that.

        So what is the point?  That because when abortion past a certain point
is illegal, it is done anyway, for that reason we should make all abortion
illegal?

        I still think that if you want to stop abortion you should follow the
route of the DeMoss Foundation and try to raise people's level of awareness
so that they don't want abortions, knowing there will still be some.  By trying
to get abortion outlawed, especially in the insane way that the righttolifers
do it, is just going to continue to draw attention away from the real issue
and end up being a feud of various types of extremists.  Also if the lifers
respect for life were part of a coherent philosophy it would be different,
but their respect for life seems to begin and end with abortion.  The only
thing they have in common is their hysterical religionism, and even there
half the fundamentalists think the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and vice-versa.

                                        Chris Morrison
Vice versa is dirty petry.   --Ed Meese.
From: CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Aztecs- Playing Games
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:20:00 GMT
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        Men have hormones, too, but theirs are less predictable, so I guess
there's no name for it.  Also women aren't in a position where they can put labe
ls on men's behavior and make it stick.

                                        Chris
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 09:37:22 EDT
Comments:     Resent-From: Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD@AKRONVM>
Comments:     Originally-From: "David L. Wilson" <dwilson@S850.MWC.EDU>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was SWL-L@OHSTVMA
From:         Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Senate Law Passed

I wonder if the Senate has realized that it has banned cellular phones as
well as all scanners capable of picking up cellular phone transmissions.

Evelyn Duncan
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
The new Senate anti-scanner law has passed and George Bush almost
certainly will sign it.  Source:  CNN Thur. night.
--
David L. Wilson                 dwilson@s850.mwc.edu
Department of Mathematics       Amateur: AC4IU (ex-KD4ASW/KO4EQ)
Mary Washington College         Home Phone:    (703)898-1084
Fredericksburg, VA  22401       Office Phone:  (703)899-4744
From: STUSTITH@EKU.BITNET (I am Looking For Signs Of Intelligent Life! Know Any?)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: No joke!
Date: 14 Oct 92 05:54:52 GMT
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i would hope that our overseas members would add in more information
more often.... i for one am interested in  some of the overseas situations



          john stith
          stustith@eku
From: z_totahmc@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Questions and Answers?
Date: 9 Oct 92 11:19:28 CST
Summary: Congressional Agony
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

I am currenlt working on a paer Entitled The Image of Congress According 
to High School Students (50-60) Government students only.  I am
asking for help in developing questions to use.  For example, What do
you think of todays Congress?  I was also thinking about
using pictures to see if students could name theiir senators.
I still have to redo my secondary research because it was inadequate.
Any ideas.  Should I take a high school perspective, for example,
this is how future voters see the congress and waht effects this
might have?  If you have any thoughts they would be
appreciated.   
					Thank you

Mail to z_totahmc@cccsvax.sfasu.edu
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 08:14:00 EST
From:         ZIMMERJ@WABASH.BITNET
Subject:      Re: New tax scheme

>From: K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

>So you think I am wrong?  You won't get offended if I ask for
>a second opinion, from someone who is at least a graduate
>student, would you?    :-)

Go ahead.  Since I've already freely admitted that I've defined this soley for
my own personal convenience, I dont see that it'll do much good.

Are you really so insecure in your own abilities that you have to keep holding
my undergrad status against me?  Tsk tsk.... :)

>Look (and I am using *your* definitions of "doubletaxed" and
>"fair"), it seems to me that these two are independent of one
>another.  In other words, you might be doubletaxed and be treated
>fairly or not be doubletaxed and be treated unfairly.

Good point.  Too bad I made it in my last post.

>So your ONLY objection to
>doubletaxing is that it makes things complicated.

Needless complexity is one objection that applies regardless, yes.  Double
taxation is unfair if it is used as a backhanded way of treating people
unfairly (unequally).  For example, an flat income tax paired with a sales tax
would be unfair, since the combined scheme would take a greater percentage of
the poor's income than the rich's.  On the other hand, I don't see why double
taxation has to inherently violate my definition of fairness.  I pointed this
out in my last post.  Do they teach remedial reading at your grad school? :)

>--KAT

Jason
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: jwales@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (jimmy donal wales)
Subject: Re: Darn
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:47:56 GMT

>More
>accurately, you said something like "I doubt that such a scenario would occur
>in the real world." 

>Anyway, since Jamie brought it up and all, I'd appreciate it if you'd again
>repeat that statement for the record.  Thanks! :)

Sure.  Actually, I'll elaborate.

I doubt very much if a scenario such as that described by Jamie would
occur in the real world without the 'tyranny of democracy' expressed
through Jim Crow laws.  Further, I think that using this kind of 
example in an attempt to give a case for interventionist policies
is careless.  Finally, I think that the safest and most effective
government policy is to constitutionally prohibit local and state
governments from passing laws which amount to the enforcement of
such 'bad' conventions.  Since, without some method of enforcement,
these conventions would likely not be equilibria, we should avoid the
(often dangerous) precedent of government intervention in private
arrangements.

--Jimbo




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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:20:00 EDT
From:         welcome to the faith dome explosion <SWEDE@DRYCAS.BITNET>
Subject:      did you ever vote for carter? have you never been mellow?
Comments: To: politics@ohstvma.bitnet

>   I wonder how many of you voted for Carter the first time he ran for
>President as well as his second attempt?

Hmmm.  I voted for John Anderson in '80, as apparantly several other
list members did.  Of course, being as it was a sixth grade mock
election, they didn't count my vote, but, hey, it's the thought that
counts.

>Carl------------+

Gary W. Olson                "My lips may promise but my heart is a whore"
SWEDE@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU  - Nine Inch Nails, "Last"
22 days and counting down...
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:07:38 -0400
From:         "The Gilded Age is Alive and Well... or maybe it should be the
              Gelded Age" <STUSTITH@EKU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jews and other things

well... that view was one that expressed an opinion of an Israeli
general in an article i read a few years ago... if they'd have fought back
they might not have been slaughtered.

                        i can't recall the source.. so i'm not sure

and there are ways to prevent people from being victimized!
From: SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET (linda)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: RE: New blood or just blood...
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:26:00 GMT
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Original_To:  BITNET%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.BITNET"

>Well, Herrin is located in Williamson County which has a long history of
>being referred to as *Bloody Williamson* in reference to some trouble
>between the UMWA, the coal companies and a bunch of scab miners.
>Has anyone read the book, "Bloody Williamson?"

gonna check to see if the library owns it before i leave work.
That's where my resentment comes from and possibly it is unfounded. I do

>admire people who attain a high-level of education and still have some
>respect for the working-class.

but the snobbery of some is pretty hard to take. i was telling another list
member abt. an incident i had catering a wedding. i was associated with an
art center as both an artist and in a temporary work capacity when we were
putting together a juried exhibition. i also was working for a catering
company. anyway, one of the guests at the wedding had asked me if i'd
catered a party she had the year previous. i hadn't.
she knew me from the art center where she was also a member. she could not
get past seeing me as a servant, even tho' for over a year we had been
peers.
snobbery in motion - sounds like good title for a painting. hmmmm

i work in an academic library - i still work parties on the wkends.

>I do apologize for my *anti-rational* statements and am truly grate-

who cares abt. rational....what i wanna know is, what are your thoughts about
beer?

welcome.

-linda
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 08:20:32 CDT
From:         fred <CCHILDER@UNMCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      george on larry

Did anyone else see Mr. Bush on Larry King last night? I thought it was
very misleading to allow only bush supporters into the audience although
Clinton was given the same treatment for his appearance. I was very
disappointed in Mr. Bush's answers to the few callers I listened to. One
caller said he was tired of the lies and deception of the present
administration. Rather than responding to his accusations, Mr. Bush simply
dismissed him as a Clinton plant. Another caller said that she had worked
for twelve years in a part time position at an air force base and was
unable to get health insurance through her work. George took no credit
for the current situation but simply said that he had the best health
care plan.

King didn't push the president on any issues but simply allowed him
to say anything with no follow-up. At least two high level officials
have said that Bush had in-depth knowledge of the goals of the arms for
hostages deals yet he continues to insist that he has leveled with the
american public. I think this election will be based on trust but I
don't think the president has enough voter's trust for re-election.

fred
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 10:43:11 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Percentages adjust
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@OHSTVMA.IUPUI.EDU>
              12 Oct 1992 09:49:00 CST from <940253JT@GBVAXA.UWG B.EDU>

On Mon, 12 Oct 1992 09:49:00 CST HIGHLANDER said:
>   Percentages don't adjust as population increase, John.  If 1 out of
>100 people is killed (1%) with a handgun, it stands to reason that with a
>similar population 2 out of 200 (1%) people would be killed.  A larger
>population does not mean that percentages would increase.  You wouldn't
>lose one out of one hundred, but five out of 200.  If that were so,
>at a certain point 100% of the population would be killed by handguns.
>   Think about it.

I can only disagree on an intuitive level, but I believe this to be
untrue.  There are undoubtedly any number of social statistics which
are not fixed (or even linear) in nature and will begin increasing as the
examined population increases due a wide variety of circumstances.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:43:49 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <ST402711@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Perotdiction for the election

>>No one ever lost an election in the land of Travis, Robert, and etc.
>>by underestimating the stupidity of the American people.

>Just when you think you've honed your level of tolerance to the max,
>---Robert

  Well, Robert, since we can't make you any smarter, we can
at least try to make you tolerant.

                       -Tim
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 21:23:00 EDT
From:         TKIDD@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Der Veependebaten

Well--this debate was much better than the one Sunday.  I like
this format.  I say we keep it.  Who won this debate?  Quayle,
definitely.  3 out of 5 CSPAN callers agree.  He appeared on the
ball, ready to get rid of his klutz image.  It worked.
I think, though, that 2 things helped Quayle.  One is that the
crowd was mostly conservative, and lent cheers to Quayle.
The other is that Stockdale bashed Gore on his enviromental policies.
Did you notice how when Stockdale spoke, no one dared interrupt him?
I think that Gore appeared programmed, much like a high school
debater.  He lost tonight.  I didn't like Quayle's closing statement.
I wish he spent more time showing what good Bush has done and less
time asking us if we could trust Clinton.
-Travis
From: DFIELD1@ITHACA.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: post-debate reaction
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:00:00 GMT
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"I may vote for him (Perot) rather than Bush."
                                                -Travis

Please do! It'll just widen Clinton's lead!

Derrick Field
dfield@ithaca
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:04:05 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      campaign politics -- uggh
Comments: To: politics@ohstvma.bitnet

Hi, y'all.  TGIF for sure.
According to various news sources, congress has passed along the tax bill,
the energy bill, and a water bill.  Rumor has it that Bush will veto the
tax bill (because it raises some taxes in order to cover the cuts in luxury
taxes, capital gains taxes, and real estate taxes); will probably sign the
energy bill; and who knows about the water bill (-andy -- any insights here
? the bill reportedly diverts subsidized water from ag to urban areas).

Is anyone besides me getting really depressed over the latest round of
ads and accusations?  "100 leading economists say Clinton economics is bad
for you" -- while, according to NPR, a group of 550 economists (including 9
Nobel Laureates) have endorsed Clinton's plan.  Do we count votes here, or
will we actually here a discussion of the relative merits of the two plans
during the debates?

Is Bush really getting anywhere by talking about Clinton "mobilizing" anti-
war demonstrations (my d.p. said that Clinton admitted to helping organize
a teach-in)?  Do we care that he went to Moscow?

If I seem biased, it's partly because I am :)  and partly because I haven't
seen any Clinton ads recently (I guess no one cares about WV).  The ads I *
have* seen, coupled with this latest round of accusations, are only serving
to decrease my sympathy with Bush/Quayle.  I don't think that's the intent
:)

Kerry
who's looking forward to serious beers, ASAP!
From: CDELL@UMKCVAX1.BITNET (VALENTINE M. SMITH)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: VP debates ...
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:32:15 GMT
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I had not planned to weigh in on this because I don't think it means too
much, but decided to offer at least these thoughts. I agree with Kerry that
the best strategy Quayle might employ is to hammer at Gore's "environmental
extremism," though I believe Gore is a centrist on the issue in many ways.
Gore in turn will probably go after Quayle for being part of what is
perceived by many as an uncaring administration in terms of family - the
vetoing of the last tax bill, family leave, failure to produce a child care
program (either as further tax break or whatever) and so on. Stockdale will
be the guy to watch - is this man who we'd want to be Prez if Perot got
elected and died in office? For many of us, it'll be the first glimpse of
the fellow we've had. My expectations as a voter is low about this debate,
I'm aslready more curious about what the three Presidential candidates will
do in adjustment to how the last debate went. VMS
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:58:12 -0700
From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      The Canadian Experience with Gun Control

Mauser's paper showing that Canada's gun control laws actually didn't
have any effect on Canadian crime is somewhat hard to get.  (Mauser
showed that other factors explain Canadian crime trends.)
Centerwall's paper, in the Dec 91 issue of the American Journal of
Epidemiology, doesn't directly address that issue, but is very easy to
get.

Centerwall showed that there are factors other than guns that explain
the difference between American and Canadian crime/murder rates.
He also showed that the differences are rather localized, that
Americans who don't make certain choices aren't at more risk
from crime than Canadians.

-andy
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