HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kathryn@Apple.COM (Kathryn Vandiver)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: camille paglia
Date: 13 Nov 92 19:23:51 GMT
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In article <1dpinuINNoq1@agate.berkeley.edu> 2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (andy) writes:
>Who is she? Why do people hate her so much?
>
>From the news articles I've listened to, she is a feminist who claims to have
a little bit different stance on freminism than Gloria Stienhem. 

Paglia views feminism as women having OPTIONS. Her whole arguement is believing
that the feminist movement is allowing women options to have careers as well
as options to be full time mothers.  I'm not too familiar with other views
of hers, maybe someone else can help fill this in. 

>From what I've heard, Paglia thinks that Gloria Steinhem is trying to 
control and manipulate the feminist movement. Since Camille is trying to 
shed some different light on views of feminism, Gloria Steinhem is not in
agreement with her and has therefore bashed her in public on many occations. 
Many Gloria Steinhem followers are also in disagreement as well.

Camille recently published a book on her views and has received many 
reviews on it. 

IMHO, there should be no one person manipulating the belief of femisism. I
am not well read with gloria steinhem and cannot say if I share all that
she says. Nor have I read Paglia's book. While trying to remain nuetral on 
the Camille - Gloria thing, all I an say is that many views exist and no one
person can say if someone elses views are right or wrong. Feminism is what each
of us believes in our hearts, it's not someone spoon feeding us a 
definition.

kc. 



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From: dwelch@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Date: 6 Nov 1992 17:55:27 GMT
Organization: Tandem Computers (MPD) Austin, TX
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In article <1dcj51INNgc2@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman) writes:
>
[ long dialogue of Perp trying to talk Victim into intercourse ]
>
>At what point did the perp cross the line from bargaining to rape?
>
>I think it occurred at the last quoted line.  The perp made an agreement,
>then broke it, and demanded an additional sexual favor before performing
>as agreed.  At that point, as far as I'm concerned, it crosses the line
>into rape.

How about when the victim says:  "Get the hell out of here!" and the Perp
refuses?  Or when she tries to push him out the door, and he refuses?  She
has many options besides submitting, if she doesn't want to.  If all he
did was refuse to leave until she submitted, then I have no sympathy for
her.  Lying is not a crime, not in these circumstances, anyway.  Call the
police, or a friend, for chrissakes.

Women can only be equal when they are willing and able to stand up for
themselves at the necessary times.  In the scenario Robert presents, the
Victim, presumably a women, is not physically powerless, is not forced,
but is unable to deal with the pressure from the Perp.  Whose fault is
this?  The Perp, or the Victim?  The Perp may be an ass, a jerk, a total
slimeball, but a rapist?  Come on.  Calling the Perp a rapist is basically
saying that the Victim is not able to defend herself against this sort
of mental pressure -- in effect, saying that the Victim is not the social,
mental, or emotional equal of the Perp.

Change the scenario from a sexual context to, say, buying a car, the car
buyer being the Victim.  The Victim eventually lets the Perp, or car salesman,
browbeat her into making a bad deal on a new car.  Does your opinion of
who is at fault change?  Switch the genders around, in both scenarios.
Does your opinion change now?

Daniel Welch


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From: uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Date: 6 Nov 1992 01:52:33 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
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In article <1992Nov4.165953.7823@maths.tcd.ie> creilly@maths.tcd.ie (Colman Reilly) writes:
>
>Baddie; "Have sex with me."
>Victim; "No."
>Baddie; "Or else . . "
>Victim; "Yes"
>
>Sounds like rape to me.

Perp:   "Let me have sex with you."
Victim: "No."
Perp:   "But you know you want to."
Victim: "No."
Perp:   "But I know you want to."
Victim: "No, I don't."
Perp:   "Yes you do.  Let me show you."
Victim: "Go away."
Perp:   "I'm not going away until you let me kiss you at least."
Victim: "If I let you kiss me will you go away?"
Perp:   "Yes."
Victim: "OK, I'll let you kiss me, but then you have to go."
Perp:   "OK. ...  Ooh, that was so good!  How about one more."
Victim: "No. You should go now."
Perp:   "I know I should, and I said I would, but that was so good, I
         really don't want to.  Don't tease me like this."
Victim: "I want you to go now."
Perp:   "No you don't.  The way you kissed me, I know you want it."
Victim: "No I don't."
Perp:   "Of course you do, or you wouldn't have kissed me like that."
Victim: "No, I kissed you because you promised to leave if I did."
Perp:   "Well, I'm not leaving now until you kiss me again."

..

[several hours of this later]

..

Victim: "Oh God, ... what happened to me?"

At what point did the perp cross the line from bargaining to rape?

I think it occurred at the last quoted line.  The perp made an agreement,
then broke it, and demanded an additional sexual favor before performing
as agreed.  At that point, as far as I'm concerned, it crosses the line
into rape.

At that point, the victim is in a position of either having to force
the perp to leave, or submit.  The threat of force on the part of the
perp comes in with the implication that the victim must either initiate
force or continue to put up with the perp.  The victim has no reason to
believe that the perp will keep further agreements, such as the
agreement not to apply physical force.  It's like a bully who won't let
you pass unless you hit him first, at which point he just might unload
on you.  Although the bully might not say anything, his very presence
in your face constitutes a direct threat of violence.

-r


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From: pol253b@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au (Ms D Alexander)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Plato's Views on Women
Date: 6 Nov 1992 17:02:48 GMT
Organization: Monash University, Australia.
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Keywords: Plato, politics, women, feminism
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In article <1d70vkINNg2g@agate.berkeley.edu> koc5@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>I'm beginning my research on Plato's views on women, as seen in the 
>general framework of his political philosophy.  I would appreciate any and 
>all help, especially of a bibliographic sort.
>
>I've managed to obtain Bluestone's book, and what seem the most immediately
>relevant articles from her bibliography.  I would especially like any
>piece on the contrasts in the views expressed in the various dialogues,
>since my more immediate topic is to try to explain the difference between the 
>treatment of women in the Republic and their treatment in the Laws.  Work
>contrasting Plato's views on women with those of other writers would also 
>be very useful.

If you haven't already read them, try the following:

Susan Moller Okin _Women In Western Political Thought_, Princeton: Princeton
Uni Press, 1979.  (read the intro or you won't know what she's on about in
later chapters on Plato, which are 1, 2 & 3).
 
Julia Annas, "Plato's Republic and Feminism", _Philosophy_, Vol., 51, 1976.
(This is an excellent article and she does a little contrast between views
expressed in the _Republic_ Bk V, and also _Laws_ and _Timaeus_.
 
Jane Flax, "Political Philosophy and the Patriarchal Unconscious", in Sandra
Harding and Merrill Hintikka (eds.), _Discovering Reality_ (sorry, don't have
full bibliographical info.  This piece is based on psychoanalytic theory, and
is focussed on critiquing Plato's overall views, especially the theory of Forms , rather than being an attack on his express views on women.  I found this a bithysterical myself, but it might do something for you).

Have fun,

Dey.>


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From: Ron Buckmire <buckmr@rpi.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Robertson wins one in Iowa [Homophobia as a weapon of sexism]
Date: 5 Nov 1992 20:05:10 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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With 90 percent of the precincts reporting, 52 percent of the voters
said ``No'' to the proposed Equal Rights Amendment while 48 percent said
``Yes.'' It was the second time the proposition was rejected in the
state.
        ``The exit poll showed 57 percent of Iowa women supported this
amendment,'' said Suzie Robinette, a spokeswoman for the Iowa Women's
Equality Campaign. ``Iowa women want equality. We are very disappointed
that the initiative failed but it was difficult to combat the negative
ads and lies of the opposition.''
        The amendment read: ``Neither the stae nor any of its political
subdivisions shall, on the basis of gender, deny or restrict the
equality of rights under the law.''
        The campaign surrounding the measure was bitter and aggressive.
Opponents circulated a letter on the stationary of televangelist Pat
Robertson, warning that adoption of the ERA would mean the enactment of
a secret, feminist agenda that would lead to the end of the family and
the rebirth of ``ancient female religions like witchcraft.''
        The waning days of the campaign saw commercials featuring homosexual
couples displaying affection for one another.


- ---
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735. 
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
Q. What's the difference between a conservative and a bigot?
A. A conservative attempts to defend his/her prejudices rationally.


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From: pw@panix.com (Paul Wallich)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Date: 5 Nov 1992 18:17:58 GMT
Organization: Trivializers R Us
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In article <1d9m1oINNc9@agate.berkeley.edu> carroll@cs.uiuc.edu (Alan M. Carroll) writes:
>In article <1d6tbtINNf5q@agate.berkeley.edu>, celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste) writes:
>> This is one that is thought provoking:
>> 
>> "I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has
>> not
>>  been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."
>> 		-- Robin Morgan, current editor of Ms. Magazine, in 1974
>> I also know of several men that have been "raped" by this definition.
>> They went along with the others desire because they were "supose to"
>> (ie. so they would be considered a "man", not a sissy)
>
>How can a man be raped (heterosexually) under this definition? If he's
>"forced" into by a woman, then it was initiated by the woman and is
>therefore not rape.

Logical flaw. Morgan claims that lack of initiation&affection&desire
on the woman's part is _sufficient_ for rape, but nowhere does she
claim it is _necessary_. There may be any number of other situations
that also constitute rape, the same way that saying that it is a
violation of traffic ordinances to pass through a red light without
stopping does not imply that running red lights is the only way to
commit a moving violation.

paul



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From: <DXZ102@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: RE: Matriarchal Societies
Date: 6 Nov 1992 22:19:09 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
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Actually, there has never been a "politically" female dominated society that we
know of.  There is a standing myth that neolithic, and or hunter-gatherer
societies, are female dominated. Unfortunately this is untrue.
Warfare, again unfortunately, has been a staple for human beings -- either
with other humans,  or, in our earlier years, with animals. In both cases
archeological evidence suggests that men have been the protectors of the clan.
Knives, bow, daggers, clubs (et. al.) have been buried with the earliest of
known neolithic sites.  The remains were male.
This role, more than any other, gave control status to males.
Now, in neolithic/ hunter-gatherer cultures, women probabely had a higher
status among the clan than they do now, or since. Here's the reason:
Men hunted regularly for meat. Women gathered fruit, grains, roots, nuts, etc.
Obviously women produced more of the available starch-carbohydrate intake for
the clan than did men. Men, with the frequency of their hunts ranging from one
to two kills a week, provided proteins only occasionally.
Now, out of this physical reality, women's status was generally high. This may
explain why dieties tended to be women (earth/mother/daughter goddess), who
represented health, nurishment, spring, fertility, and life in general.
Only after settled agriculture, when men did most of the hard labor (more
upper body strength), did women become completely subservient. They no longer
produced food. Goddesses became gods, and so forth.
Ask yourself about 51% of this nation's workforce being women.
Have you noticed, at least relative to the last 4000 years, that women have
more status?

Just a male observation.
Long live feminism.

Dave


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From: renzland@gov.on.ca (Peter Renzland)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Origin of "womyn" spelling
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:04:53 GMT
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Is this spelling simply a modern neologism or is it based on something
old?  I've heard suggestions that it may be an old form, but haven't
been able to confirm this.  What few dictionaries I've seen say it
comes from middle-english/anglo-saxon "wifmann" (wife of man).  This
would seem to contradict the historical basis for the "womyn" spelling.

But I know that things aren't always what they seem.  Perhaps someone here
knows the answer.  I do hope this isn't a FAQ.
-- 
Peter Renzland <renzland@gov.on.ca> Ontario Ministry of Health +1 416 327-7741
In real life:  <peter@renzland.org>   "Je danse donc je suis"  +1 416 323-1300


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From: creilly@maths.tcd.ie (Colman Reilly)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Date: 7 Nov 1992 03:46:14 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
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[Moderator's note: excessive included text trimmed.]

mvwjf@mvgpf.att.com (William J Fallon) writes:
>Gee, for a second I thought you were trying to say that saying
>yes after somebody says or else was consent but then I decided
>nobody could be that dense and there must be some other meaning 
>not obvious to me.

The meaning of consent isn't clear here. We're arguing pedantry anyway :-)

-- 
Colman Reilly (creilly@maths.tcd.ie) [+353-(0)1-7022280]
c/o School of Mathematics,18.05 Westland Row,Trinity College,Dublin.



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From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Feminism is not equal to
Date: 6 Nov 1992 17:09:32 GMT
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gsu0036@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Gail Donnelly) writes...
GD> The common misconception of the feminist movement is the idea of
GD> manhating.  This is to say that feminism in every way relates to men.
GD> The only association that the feminist has with the male "movement" is
GD> to aquire what this society has deemed is for men.  The word feminism
GD> is defined as the political and economic equality of women.  The
GD> feminists that do develop a hatred for men are in most ways justified
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
GD> in their anger, however, lack in the true understanding of the movement
GD> in overcoming oppression.


Ah, but would you similarly grant that men in the men's movement who have
developed anger towards women, are similarly justified?

IMHO, I don't think much of either men or women who have developed hatred of
the opposite gender.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * "My hair does not require trimming, you lunkhead!" - Data


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From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: recent discussion of rape
Followup-To: talk.rape
Date: 11 Nov 1992 16:40:50 GMT
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
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In article <1dpiqcINNoqh@agate.berkeley.edu> arosen@oregon.uoregon.edu (Ava Rosenblum) writes:
> I would like to expand the discussion of rape to include emotional rape. These
>are situations in which one person is lied to so that she WANTS to go to bed
>with the man. 
  
   I think this is a very _dangerous_ extension to make. I believe it would
cripple attempts to understand and thereafter to stop rape.
   I am assuming we are talking about cases where the alledged victim is
mentally competant.

   To suggest that women need to be protected (or need legal recourse against)
being tricked or fooled, is to suggest that women are not capable of making
choices for themselves.
   Some tricks are illegal. Fraud, con games, even promises of marriage. But
everyday people try to trick you into doing things that favour them. Indeed,
the whole advertising industry is based on this principle, isn't it?

DanZ

  PS  Maybe take this argument to talk.rape.  That group has recently
become talk.guns.advocacy, and it would be nice to get some topical
discussions going.

[Moderator's note: good idea.  Followups will be redirected to
talk.rape. - MB]

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This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  



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From: mvwjf@mvgpf.att.com (William J Fallon)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Date: 6 Nov 1992 18:36:08 GMT
Organization: AT&T
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[Moderator's note: excessive included text trimmed]

In article <1debifINNocj@agate.berkeley.edu> dwelch@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch) writes:
>In article <1dcj51INNgc2@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman) writes:
>[ long dialogue of Perp trying to talk Victim into intercourse ]
>>At what point did the perp cross the line from bargaining to rape?
>How about when the victim says:  "Get the hell out of here!" and the Perp
>refuses? [...]
>Women can only be equal when they are willing and able to stand up for
>themselves at the necessary times.  In the scenario Robert presents, the
  
Interesting new definition. Equal to what?
   
>Change the scenario from a sexual context to, say, buying a car, the car
>buyer being the Victim.  The Victim eventually lets the Perp, or car salesman,
>browbeat her into making a bad deal on a new car.  Does your opinion of
>who is at fault change?  Switch the genders around, in both scenarios.
>Does your opinion change now?


Change the scenario from a sexual context to, say, murder. Does
the guy get off?
  




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