HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: religion vs. philosophy
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 15:14:33 GMT

In article <725674961.AA08309@urchin.fidonet.org> Stovall@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Stovall) writes:
>SCX>...Is it possible to discuss the spiritual aspects of MA
>SCX>training without dragging in the religions and philosophies which
>SCX>serve as their foundation?
>
>Sure. The spiritual aspects of the MAs are not necessarily related to
>religion: philosophy, yes; religion,no.

	IMNSHO, the spiritual aspects of _some_ MA are not necessarily related
to religion. But other MA have (as far as I can tell) the same characteristics
as religions & cults, except that they call themselves philosophies and "ways",
which have considerably less semantic baggage than God and religion.

	After all, I can espouse a Taoist Taiji belief in the protective power
of the Tao: surrender the self, listen with my heart/spirit, enter a state of
no contention and I will triumph against people who are less in harmony with
the Tao. And it's just so much philosophy.
	But if some muslim guy expresses belief in the protective power of God:
surrender the self, perceive with the heart, enter a state of grace ... and 
you will triumph over evil. Then it's religious.
	In practical terms, they seem to be saying the same thing.

>Peace in our time,

	Uhhhh, errrr, "Shalom"?

--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: bear hug variation
Date: 22 Dec 92 23:06:12 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec22.170520.16152@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>>	If you relax as totally as you suggest, wouldn't the guy just
>>switch to a chicken wing (a wrestling move like a hammerlock but with
>	Hopefully, this is exactly what he'll do.  Once he releases you,

	You don't release the guy.  If he relaxes so that his wieght is
too far underside to easily lift him you simply follow him down to the ground
using his body as a point of support.  You _also_ relax and sort of smother
him.  If his arms are movable you simply slide your arm under his, between
his body and his arm, and nestle his arm in the crook of your elbow.  You
sort of snake it around from the front without ever breaking contact.  Now 
reach up and place your hand on his shoulder and you've got the hold.

	In general a good wrestler won't ever release a hold once he's
got one.  He just moves to a different hold.  

	I _do_ agree that moving to the ground is a good way to deal
with this attack, provided that there are no third or fourth parties
From: exudms@exu.ericsson.se (New Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: body memory
Summary: or any other
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:03:11 GMT
Reply-To: exudms@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              Any opinions expressed are strictly those of the
              user and not necessarily those of Ericsson.

In article 23751@siemens.co.at, ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl) writes:
->With learning a new form/kata I usually experience body memory: I can not
->recall the form in my mind, but once I start to repeat it, I realize
->it is still there. 
->Can anyone explain this on a medical/biological level (or any other), please !
			                   ^^^^^^^^^

Is MA purely just physical?	No.

Is MA purely just memory?	No.

Mind and body united is in training. Training is to unite the body and mind.

When you have performed the form as second nature, then you have performed it
without giving it much thought. Once a person has an understanding of a technique
and all the techniques in a form, it is easier performed without thinking.

An older form in my mind usually is recalled by just simply doing it. I visualize the
form as a whole, then I concentrate on the here_and_now until each technique is 
performed. 

I have forgotten though at times what I was doing, or mixed up techniques in a 
form. That's human! But transfering techniques from a form into fighting applications
is an achieved second nature without thinking.

On a medical level? Total-recall sounds healthy to me!

/New Dave
	
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: More ki/qi/chi & science
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 14:58:20 GMT

In article <75698@apple.apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
>It is innocuous to say that something is outside the realm of
>scientific discourse. The issue of whether that characterization
>invalidates an idea is a philosophical question quite separate
>from its accessibility to scientific study.

	My point is that these clean & pure distinctions that philosophers
make are not at all reflected in everyday attitudes and subjective experience.

> One need not accept
>logical positivism and the scientific method as one's philosophy
>of life in order to be a good scientist (though one can, of
>course choose to so accept them if one wishes). This is a matter
>of individual taste in metaphysics.

	Very true.

>Logical Positivism is a philosophical stance that is on equal
>footing with other such stances; its merits are arguable,
>just as are other philosophical stances'.

	Analytically, you are entirely correct. An unfortunate characteristic
I've noticed in people is that they tend to be unaware of, or unwilling to
fully acknowledge the flaws in a position. This is especially true if the
stance is implicit, and is never explicitly explained and compared to other
stances.

>As far as science and chi go, if we decide that chi is a phenomenon
>like anger, whose effects are entirely subjective, then we
>have no business complaining if scientists dismiss it from
>their realm of discourse. In fact, in defining it in purely
>subjective terms, we have already so dismissed it.

	Henh, henh, henh...I think we've come across a certain kind of
hypocrisy...
	Scientists often conjecturing the existence of things which they have
never directly observed, then asking the government for billions and billions
of dollars to create instrumentation with which to _attempt_ to observe these
hypothetical particles.
	What's the difference? All these quarks (or whatever) are unobserved,
purely theoretical and could very well only exist in the minds of the
scientists (subjective enough, huh?).
	Besides, who ever actually *sees* things like mesons and neutrinos? All
that is ever seen is their effect on the environment as they break down, or
as they rip through a big vat of fluid.
	One never actually *sees* qi, but one can observe it's effects. But in
this instance, that's just not good enough to justify further research.

>(Do I need to say that ad hominem allegations
>that scientists are close-minded do not constitute scientific
>criticisms?)

	Conservatism is a pretty common phenomenon in closed discourse
communities - usually the only folks who bother to argue are so zealous that
they start to froth at the mouth.
	Whether those frothy mouthed guys are right or wrong is another matter.

	Stephen
--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: jchristian@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: poor technique
Date: 1 Jan 93 15:42:12 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

> 
> Of course there must also be disadvantages to this method, too.  One
> problem is that it is very hard to time the withdrawing action
> precisely.  You must also practice often with a heavy bag or hand pads
> to maintain the feel of full penetration.
> 
> Are there other disadvantages to this method of controlling
> penetration by limb extension?
> 


I've heard stories of karate practitioners who have trained themselves to
maintain proper distance but pull their punches (for their partner's safety),
and then find themselves instinctively pulling their punches when they're in a
real fight.  Don't know if it's true or not, but I can see at least the
possibility of that.  Muscle memory can be very fickle, especially when you're
executing a motion on an instinctive level that you've practiced numerous times
on a conscious level.  Again, I don't know if those stories are real, but I've
heard them often, including from other karate practitioners.

Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Ninjutsu -- info please
From: patrick@actrix.gen.nz (Pat Cain)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 22:33:17 GMT
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange

I have a friend doing Ninjutsu who wants me to try it.  I've never
done any martial arts before and am interested to know how it compares
to other martial arts and anything about it -- is the chance of
injury higher, is it a very popular martial art?

Pat.
-- 
Pat Cain, PO Box 2060, Wellington, NZ  ()  em: cain_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fxmar@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: nelsons
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 01:53:41 GMT

> In article <4447@unisql.UUCP>, wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>> In article <1992Dec23.035220.25160@cs.mun.ca> robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Robin Collier) writes:
>> >Well, I know I have heard several ways of getting out of a full nelson, but I
>> >was recenctly told by Nick Cerio at a seminar that if someone actually gets 
>> >you in a full nelson, there is no way out of it.  He said that all effective
>> 
>> 	I've had success escaping from a nelson by putting my palms on my 
>> forehead and straightening my back, legs, and arms at the same time.


        The question I believe to be asked is how much damage to the opponent
can you safely "explain away".  Yes, I can get out of a correctly applied
full nelson, but, the opponent might not live through it.

        For the average martial artist I'll say only that if your in a full
nelson thats it.  You lose.

-mark
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: More Questions, etc.
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 00:55:03 GMT

actize@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>>Hello netters.  What's the counter to this move ?   Attacker & Defender face 
>>each other as boxer usually do.  Attacker kicks defender in midsection with 
>>rear foot.  Defender drops lead hand to down to deflect kick.  Attacker steps 
>>in and punches the defender, who dropped his guard deflecting the kick . ???  
>
>Rules - light contact, defend self at all times,  kicks allowed anywhere
>above belt, no catch and lock allowed, punch, kick and block allowed for
>defender.
>
>I'm trying to think of a hand-block hand-block sequence to defend against
>this.  Down-blocking the kick and then reverse punch for the defender doesn't
>seem realistic to me.  Maybe that's what the problem is.  Other opinions ? 

My favorite counter is a quick preemptive kick off the front
leg.  All other things being equal, you can detect an incoming
rear leg kick, fire off a front leg kick and expect yours to
land before his even though you started later.  Front leg kicks
are that much faster.  Assuming you started from a closed stance
(forward feet diagonally rather than directly opposite each
other), your kick will occupy the centerline first and deflect
his kick outside, eliminating the need for any blocking on your
part.  So both your hands stay free for whatever further mayhem
you want to wreak.  Also, if he intended the kick punch
combination, there will be lots of forward momentum to multiply
the force of your kick.  This will *not* result in light
contact, but it won't be your fault.  All you did was stick your
foot out and he impaled himself on it ;-)  A couple of these,
and your hard charger is going to start hesitating, and that's
the beginning of his end.
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: qi - any simple exercises?
Date: 30 Dec 92 07:30:39 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1gtj5uINN9qs@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>In article <mcdevitt.724674635@taupe> mcdevitt@rtsg.mot.com (Aidan McDevitt) writes:
>>I was wondering if there are any simple exercises by which one
>>could build up qi in the body to the point of being able to feel it.
>
>However, I can describe a less effective exercise which may or may not work
>for you:
>
>  1. Find a warm, quiet place without distractions.

Just wanted to say thanks for this exercise. I tried it out and found
it very interesting. I have a few observations to share about the results
predicted.

> 1. Mottled hands.
 Definitely observed this effect. It isn't particularly unusual though,
at least for me.

> 2. Warm, tingly sensation in the palms.
Tingly, yes. Warm, no. Possibly due to the fact that I disregarded
the 'warm' part of the instructions that said 'find a warm, quiet
place without distractions' (not to mention the 'quiet' and 'without
distractions' parts; I have kids, you know).

> 3. A "repelling magnets" feeling between the palms.

Very definitely. I did find that the sensation increased markedly
as I brought my hands closer together than 6 or 8 inches, and
also felt stronger when the fingers of both hands were pointing
the same direction. It seemed to become much weaker if the fingers
of one hand encountered the base of the opposing palm.

> 4. An "outside-the-body" feeling of mechanically linked motion in
the arms.

This descripion is more ambiguous than the others. I did notice that
the two elbows seemed very much coordinated, as if attached to each
other along the arms, and a sort of dissociation (a "those aren't
my arms" sort of feeling) reminiscent of the feeling you get in
the classic experiment in which you press your arms against the
sides of a doorway for a long time, then step away relaxing them.

This last sensation reminds of of a couple of other things I've encountered
in previous practice. For example, we practice an exercise called
San Ng, in which we perform a series of breathing exercises with
associated qi-directions, while another student strikes, pushes,
and climbs on us in various ways. There is a similar feeling, when
one does it right, of the body smoothly, almost mechanically moving
through the exercise, regardless of the partner's impact on it.

I've noticed similar feelings while practicing a series of meditations
called the 'breath after birth', and during practice of the 5 Animal
Play. In some of these, I also notice a sensation in my abdomen not unlike
the feeling of descent in a playground swing, or when a roller
coaster plunges. Occasionally, when I'm working at trying to express
jing in Tai Chi or Pa Kua practice I notice that same sensation.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: Kicking someone's xxx.
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:46:51 GMT

I have no question about the morality of attacking someone who
verbally insults me, but I'm not so sure about the legality. Isn't
there something in the law about "fighting words" that can mitigate
or excuse the crime of assualt? Are there any net lawyers out there
that know about "fighting words"?
--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera
From: jchristian@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Bear Hug defense
Date: 29 Dec 92 03:16:24 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <1992Dec27.194106.10217@alw.nih.gov>, drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury) writes:
> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>>[bearhug stuff deleted]
>>It's not impossible.  Our instructor can get out anytime he wants.  I can get
>>out about 20% of the time.  It's just very difficult.
> 
> So, it seems that your instructor is doing something different
> from the rest of you.  What is it?  How come he doesn't just
> show you?

He's a big boy.  I can't get a good lock around his body like I can with
everyone else.  My arms are too short.  Definitely not the body type I would
use a bear hug on anyway.

Jeff
From: rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 01:50:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: where to buy a CLUB for my car
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts

>rec.martial-arts / rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry) 
>
>BTW, the new "Bashers" from Cold Steel are very nice.  A 7-cell (AA) flashlight
>made out of steel tubing that is a full 1/4" think.  I like it better than any
>of the D or C cell MagLites.  They are 17" long, relatively light weight, and 
>VERY sturdy.

Whoops, I lied...  They are called "The Brute" (not The Basher) and are milled
out of a 1" solid bar of 6061-T6 aircraft aluminum, not steel tubing.  They 
have a wall thinkness of 1/4".  Weight w/batts is 20 oz.

They put of 20,000 candle-power, so are useful as a flashlight, too...  :)

[I don't work for Cold Steel.  I'm just a very satisfied customer.]

Ray

BTW, for useful 'martial arts' info on the self-defense applications of 
flashlights, check out John Peters' book "Defensive Tactics with Flashlights".
From: toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (J. Toman)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Just Curious...
Date: 21 Dec 1992 23:38:37 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: bovine.uoregon.edu

In article <1992Dec21.194505.12371@ns.network.com> hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) writes:
>In article <50040221@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com> rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry) writes:
>>
>>The Koreans, as do the Japanese and Chinese and ..., like to claim that they
>>can trace the martial arts "in their homeland" back to some very early date
>>in history.
>
>Nor are they the only ones.  I've seen all sorts of sources trying to
>draw a link between modern day Western boxing and the sort that was
>practiced in the ancient Greek Olympics.  Nope.  Present day boxing
>dates back to the end of the 1700's, no more.

So say two Gallic types wanted to brain one another but there weren't
any tools handy ; what did they do ? I find it difficult to believe
that with all that fighting that happened on the European continent,
someone somewhere didn't develop a stylised method of unarmed fighting
before the late 1700's. It might not have been 'boxing' , but there
were moves in there that turned in to 'boxing' . I guess your last
statement is just a bit discontinuous for me, and I'd need to hear
your history of boxing to believe it.

					J. Toman
From: jfrost@crash.cts.com (Julian Frost)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (wrist/forearm technique)
Date: 29 Dec 92 23:22:54 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

In article <1hpqd6INNon2@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>a few posts ago, andy says:
>"kote gaeshi is NOT a wrist technique, but one for the forearm"
>
>could you expand on that? do you mean that the arm should be straighter,
>i.e. the effect is more a 'shearing' rather than bending effect on the
>wrist?
>
>-mukund
Kote Gaeshi should involve twisting the hand towards the elbow of the
attacker, while turning your own body out of the line of attack.  The
combination of your movement, his movement and the fact that you are
extending his wrist in a direction that it *normally* bends, causes
your partner (attacker) to loose his balance and be thrown.  Julian
From: ljb@parkcity.dr.att.com (BLO54620-BonhamLJ(DR2194)240)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: thrust versus slash -- a SEAL's response
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:08:37 GMT

In article <mk8VVB2w165w@bluemoon.use.com>, lchurch2@bluemoon.use.com (Leonard Church) writes:
|> writes:
|> 
|> That SPECIAL knife was developed for the SAS back in WWII by Fairbanks... 
|> it is like a triangle file and was refered to as a "noseplug" some 
|> variations on this knife included: the handle being that of a WWI 
|> trenchknife [brass nuckles], having two Sai like tines on the handle, and 
|> having a retractable wire saw in the handle as a garotte.
|>  
|> 
|> -------------------------------------------------------------
|> Growing trees in a concrete Jungle | lchurch2@bluemoon.rn.com
|> -------------------------------------------------------------


A small historical correction, if you'll permit me.

The knife your refering to was the Sikes-FAIRBAIRNE, not the Fairbanks.
It was developed by William E. Fairbairne of the Shanghai Municipal Police
for the British Royal Marine Commando in 1940 or 1941.  Many other SOGs 
adopted it during the war including the SAS (Special Air Service), MI-6,
U.S. Army Rangers, U.S.M.C. Raiders, and OSS to mention a few.  The British
loved it, the Americans often found it to light for general use but many
individual U.S. personnel liked it.  

This knife became the general model for most of the combat blades made today
which are not intended for survival use.  Randle and others have copied
it but quite often increased the blade's thickness.

Well, that's enough.  Don't want to bore you all.


Larry
-----
"Sharp pointy things are better
 because you don't have to reload them"
		-- Robert Duncan
From: curt@access.digex.com (curt williams)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: MOTHER PICKS UP CAR
Date: 30 Dec 1992 02:39:27 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

>Guy rips security bars off window to save child from burning
>building.  No details, dj just mentioned it

That's what started the whole thread-- everyone has heard these stories
but there's never any details.  It reminds me of the nuns from Catholic
elementary school-- they were full of miracle stories about people
growing new eyes and legs and stuff, but they could never point to a
single person by name who grew a new eye.

Also, there isn't any data on the condition of the security bars--
some guy may have ripped off a damaged or flimsy set of bars.

Another reader did what sounds like a convincingly comprehensive
computer search, which I've repeated (on a smaller scale), without
finding anything of substance.  As soon as the holidays are over
I'm going to tap into Dialog and search again on a grander scale.

I'd like to believe the stories, but so far I'm not convinced.
From: GMS@psuvm.psu.edu (Gerry Santoro - CAC/PSU)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (wrist/forearm technique)
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:32:12 GMT
Organization: Penn State University


>In article <1hpqd6INNon2@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>
>        Kote gaeshi, as widely practiced, relies on pain and a fairly hard
>        cranking effort, which is indicative of inferior technique.  Find
>        a person with, say, a rubber wrist, and I'll bet dollars to donuts
>        that the KG as commonly practiced will not succeed, leaving the
>        practitioner in an unenviable position :(.

Not necessarily.  If the initial evade is done properly, the nage is in an
excellent position to initiate other manuvers to redirect uke.  I agree that
standard Kote Gaeshi, as practiced, will not necessarily work well against
a street punch.  However, (at least at my 2'nd kyu level of practice), we
do it to develop control and drop uke gently.

It is not hard for me to see how a mixture of the initial kote gaeshi
evade, followed by a sayo-nage (actually a kokyo-nage) or a non-aikido
elbow-to-face, would effectively drop an attacker.  The purpose of the
technique (IMHO) is to learn feel and control.  Application comes later and
depends on the situation.

One question we always get from new students is how kote gaeshi would work
against a boxer executing jabs.  My response is that it wouldn't.  But if the
principles are completely internalized, the nage should be able to control
distance (mai-ai) to the degree that the uke is forced to extend, or at
least into an unexpected position from which a proper response could be
delivered.

Of course a good low knee-kick works wonders also! (:-)

gerry santoro
academic computing/speech communication
penn state university
Aikido Kokikai Penn State - faculty advisor