From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:05:05 GMT
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

In <1992Aug12.153118.25855@amc.com> reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes) writes:
#In article <1992Aug11.084948.9679@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. ALF in spe)) writes:
##I consider oversize calibers (.45+) to be less effective manstoppers
##than standard calibers (9mm thru .45) for reasons of overpenetration
##and excessive recoil (ypu can't stop what you don't hit).
##
#While it's quite true that you can't stop what you can't hit, observation
#of shooters with high-capacity semi-autos demonstrates that accuracy is
#greatly reduced by a tendency to rely on the "next" round.  Ultimately,
#that is round number 15 in a 13+1 pistol, and the target _stays_ missed.

That's the "spray and pray" philosophy, much chastised by Jeff Cooper
et al. (deservedly so).  I'm not so sure that, as a rule, the capacity
of the gun is inversely proportional to the accuracy.  If this were so,
why not just load five or six cartridges in your magazines.  IMHO, 
the issue of hitting what you aim at is mainly a matter of training, not
of caliber or capacity.  If you have the necessary skills, you hit, no
matter what number of bullets you have at your disposal.

#This "ability" to miss is, as you have rightfully suggested, enhanced
#by heavy recoil, which is a function of _both_ firearm weight and (loosely
#speaking) energy.

Don't forget the energy gradient.  It's very important in what span of
time the energy is released.  BTW, anybody got any factual information
about that?  I'm interested in energy release curves for different
calibers.

#In this group we hear that firearms are frequenty chosen by standards of
#"ease of carry" or "ease of concealability", which standards frequently
#equate to lightness, or, ***increased recoil***  TA-DAA!  To combine
#light weight with pleasant recoil, it is necessary to select calibers
#with minimized energy (I'm picking words carefully here).  Pretty soon,
#to defend a "cute carry", one begins defending minimal cartridges, and
#even loading them to the edge of reason, as in +P+, which increases
#recoil and decreases accuracy.

TANSTAAFL.  Choose either low recoil or high bullet energy.  Sir Isaac
showed that the two are generally the same thing.  

As Bob correctly states lateron, here we are confronted with two
different problems.  Ease-of-carry is neither inversely related nor
completely irrelevant to achieved stopping power.

#Although I live in a rural area, and could care less about the dreaded
#"over-penetration", I hear lack of overpenetration being used a positive
#factor in "stopping power".  In truth, the shootee does not care if the
#bullet overpenetrates after he is stopped, nor does he care if the
#he was shot by a gun that carried nicely.  He cares only that he was
#hit by a well-place energetic bullet.  

I'm totally with you here.  Living in a country were ordinary walls
are made of 15 cm concrete or bricks, I waste not $.01 worth of thought
to "over-penetration".

#Both shooting and watching, the most accurate handguns I've seen have
#been on the heavy side of median, and were certainly no more offensive
#in recoil than many light-but-underpowered guns.

No question about that.  As far as I know, the best guns for target
shooting are ultra-heavy-barrel long-barrelled guns that recoil like
major trucks. :-)

#So we have two separate sets of problems:
#1. What is nicest to carry without endangering the general populace
#     (that's overpenetration)?
#2. What is best for dumping well-placed energy into the target?
#Can these be mutually exclusive?

As I wrote some paragraphs ago, these parameters are neither completely
related nor unrelated.  The pivot factor here is, IMHO, training.  It's
mostly inexperienced shooters with fear of recoil who choose marginal
caliber defense guns.  To my mind, anybody interested enough (read that,
with enough time and determination) can learn how to shoot a 9mm, a
.45 or even a .357 and how to become accustomed to the recoil.

The answer to question 2 is, at least according to general wisdom,
".357 magnum".
The answer to (1) might be "a baseball bat" :-)

#I'd rather carry a shooter than shoot a carrier.

Still, I uphold my reservation on excessive calibers.  Statistics
show (Here I mean Marshall's, whatever you think about them.  So far, I
haven't seen anything better.) that above .357 Magnum, stopping power
actually decreases.  I understand the reason for this (less energy
dumped in the target due to quick penetration), but I understand, too,
that this is merely a hypothesis.  If anybody demonstrates tomorrow that
a .50 Win.Mag. is a more effective manstopper than a .357, I'm the last
one to grieve over that.

-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |