HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (roger maynard)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:31:35 GMT

In <10010651@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) writes:

>In rec.sport.baseball, djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:

>> I think that stats are very valuable to look at but some people put too
>> much emphasis on them when comparing players.  For example compare George
>> Bell to Dave Winfield and their contributions to the Jays.  If they had
>> exactly the same stats I would take Winfield over Bell because Winfield
>> always puts 100% effort, is a hard worker, is a team leader and will do
>> anything the manager says and anything which will help the team win.

>Ah, but they *don't* have exactly the same stats (at least, I doubt they do).

>Do you really mean to say you'd take the lesser player if he gave 100% effort?

he is saying that stats don't tell us which IS the lesser player.  In measuring
the worth of a player there are qualities to consider which are not easily
measured using individual statistics.

>Awfully sweet of you, but not conducive to winning, which is what a lot of us
>enjoy.

"Awfully sweet of you" is not conducive to winning your argument either is it?
What exactly is the purpose of this sarcasm?

>OBA would if it counted "reached base on errors", which most true sta-heads
>believe it should.

>> Stats don't tell everything about a player so don't
>> base your arguements on stats alone.

>If the argument is "who is a better player", then good objective statistics
>contribute a whole lot more than what someone says about how hard the players
>worked.

The only time the argument "who is the better player" has any meaning at all
is in spring training when one player is trying to beat another out.  And
seldom is that decision based mainly on statistics.  Of course the nerds well
try to say that it should be...the rest of the time the question "who is the
better player" is impossible to answer.  You can determine who has the 
better DA or OPI or OBA or whatever but that is only going to tell you who
has the best statistics and not who the best player is.  And if you think that
they are one and the same then you have closed your eyes to a large part of
the game.

rm

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Marc "Dave" Sabatella		Disclaimer: OPS is not the One True Statistic
>marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com		that makes all others obsolete
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
roger maynard                    
91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: exujeff@exu.ericsson.se (Jeff Thompson)
Subject: Re: Taking Third
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:02:32 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.172601.13911@u.washington.edu> hiegel@redx.washington.edu (Brian Hiegel) writes:
>Path: exucom.exu.ericsson.se!ericom!sunic!mcsun!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!redx!hiegel
>From: hiegel@redx.washington.edu (Brian Hiegel)
>Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
>Subject: Taking Third
>Message-ID: <1992Jul29.172601.13911@u.washington.edu>
>Date: 29 Jul 92 17:26:01 GMT
>Sender: hiegel@redx (Brian Hiegel)
>Organization: UW Information Systems
>Lines: 3

>What is the value of third base when there are two outs?  Is it ever worth the risk to steal third with two outs?  I know the old saying "never make the first or third out of an inning at third," but is that always the case.  Can someone tell me a situal>ion when you go against this rule?

>-Brian
]-Depending upon whose up to bat, the count, and how he has done so far in 
the game and/or against the pitcher, if caught stealing you still 
have the batter up next inning. 
]-If the pitcher has been wild, or the catcher is not the regular, you score 
on a wild pitch or past ball.
]-Always the possibility of an overthrow into l.f. by the catcher.   
]-A base hit does not always gaurantee a run from second.
]-An infield hit with a runner on third scores...on second he stays.
and you now have a force on all three bases.
Just some thoughts on why to steal even though you can stick to the rule.
Of course averages and stats would play a part in taking third or not I 
would think
]]]-jeff 
============================================================================
Jeff Thompson M/S B-07     || DAoubULLS                 || YOU CAN'T HEAR
Ericsson Network Systems   || TWIN for the TWINS in '92 ||    IF YOUR
P.O. BOX 833875            || PURPLE IS IN              ||    LIPS ARE
Richardson, TX. 75083-3875 || WOLVES ARE CHRISTIANs TOO ||     MOVING
============================================================================
From: jasdzews@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Gary James Jasdzewski)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: AL West
Date: 29 Jul 92 08:03:32 GMT

I am tired of hearing about how Oakland is hurt and needs their
expensive players back.  This is one of this summer's cliches.  But it
seems that the substitutes as a whole have out-produced those who they
replaced. 

Minnesota's bullpen is crumbling ever since they monkeyed around with
it a couple of weeks ago and got rid of Wayne.  Does anyone on this
team hit homers anymore?

Oakland and Minnesota are the best teams in the AL.  Will Oakland keep
it up?  Minnesota just came off of a 21 out of 26 streak which left
Texas and Chicago way back, but Oakland in this time only lost 3 or 4
games on the Twins.  Now the A's have taken the first two in Mn.  And
what's this about the A's "horrible" bullpen?

The good news for baseball fans is that there is now another
divisional race!!! 
(Milwaukee's running game will hurt the Twins this weekend.)
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: RP/PA for AL and NL (More bogus RP stats)
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:03:16 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Jul22.165443.15814@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>In article <BrrqEL.3K7@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:

>>isn't a good stat without improving it or giving suggestions on how to 
>>improve it then just say you don't like it and leave the discussion about
>>it.
>

>
>I'll give you a suggestion: abandon using anything with runs and rbis in it
>to evaluate the individual contributions of the players.  You can divide by
>anything you want, and it's not going to solve the fundamental problem,
>only make small improvements.  Instead, look at things like Linear Weights
>(ignoring the fielding stuff, which is flawed), or, if you want a simple
>measure, check out OBA+SLG or Runs Created.
In other words, why would Sherri give you suggestions on how to improve
a stat that it in her opinion bogus and not at all valuable? She told you
in plain english what was wrong with it, why she felt it was wrong and
people kept to trying to "improve" it by dividing it by something. As 
Sherri then pointed out, it can be divided by whatever people feel like,
but that won't make the stat any better because you're still dividing
using a stat that is meaningless. 

If there is something important about this stat, inform us, but don't just
claim its valid because it makes a certain player look good when more
meaningful stats make him look worse(which is what started this thread,
somebody-I forget who_ trying to make Cecil Fielder look better by using
runs produced.
>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I want a world where I can eat a sea otter without getting sick!"

Leslie Nielsen in the Naked Gun 2 1/2
******************************************************************************




Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sybesmer@uther.calvin.edu (Eric W Sybesma)
Subject: Tigers at home on August 8?
Summary: Are the Tigers at home on August 8?
Keywords: Tigers
Organization: Calvin College
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 05:56:59 GMT

Who do the Tigers play on a August 8 and are they at home??

Please E-mail sybesmer@uther.calvin.edu

THANKS!!!!

--
Home Address and Phone               Internet addresses  
Eric Sybesma   (616) 243-5913        School: sybesmer@uther.calvin.edu
514 E. Burton St.                    Work:  (E-mail only) (616) 241-7280
Grand Rapids  MI  49507                   sybesma@benzie.si.com
From: st1ge@Elroy.UH.EDU (Edward Hui)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Carry-isms (was Re: Shoot Harry)
Date: 28 Jul 92 06:11:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: menudo.1992Jul28.061114.4175
Reply-To: st1ge@Elroy.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston


        When I lived in Indiana I used to watch Cubs games quite often,
though I'm not a Cub fan.  What bothers me the most is that every time
an opposing pitcher pitch just a little bit inside to a Cub batter,
Harry will say "almost hit him!".  It's so ridiculous.  I'm glad that
my cable company does not offer me WGN now.

Edward Hui  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: wilbanks@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Dylan Wilbanks)
Subject: Re: Marlins/Rockies Minor League Teams
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:14:56 GMT

pjohnso@triton.unm.edu (Paddy Johnson CIRT) writes:

>Where are the Marlins and Rockies farm teams going to be located?
>What happens to teams like the Denver Zephyrs?{
>Have there been any pictures published of what the Rockies/Marlins
>uniforms are going to look like, especially in color?  Where (i.e
>what publication)?
>Thanks,
>Zoe Johnson

The rumour circulating around metro Denver is that the Rocks will 
put their AAA team in Colo. Springs, since the pact between 
the Sky Sox and Cleveland will run out this year. They'll probably
be there, at least that's my guess. 

I don't think that Colo. would go for a AAA team as far away from
Denver as Ottawa or Charlotte. The Squiddies may take the spot 
in North Carolina, since it is the closest possible site. 

BTW, the AAA expansion was a total joke. OTTAWA, a city that's NEVER
had a baseball team to speak of, a city without a stadium, for that 
matter, bgets an expansion franchise??? I was extremely pissed that 
despite 3 straight record breaking 200,000 seasons in Tulsa, and 
now the removal of that dang Astroturf, they didn't get a team.
FOR SHAME!

-- 
Dylan Wilbanks, Classics major, class of 2002 (too optimistic?)
"Look! An X-man movie's coming out!"          |Currently at:
c.10 year old in a Tulsa movie theater,       |Box 1143
looking at a poster for _Malcolm X_           |Boulder, CO 80306
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: WHAT SHOULD THE DODGERS DO???
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:07:40 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.195943.22539@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.184754.16681@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> frisbee@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Tyler Brown) writes:
>>>
>>>1B - This position looks like the most solid on the squad. Karros seems to
>>>      be fitting in well and is doing very well for a rookie. I would hope
>>>      that he is left alone and protected in the upcoming draft. He has been
>>>      truly one of the bright spots of this season.
>>>
>>Agreed, but I'd like to see a decent sophomore year before I write
>>him into the lineup for the next 15 years. I seem to remember bright
>>starts for such luminaries as Greg Brock and Mike Marshall...

>Greg Brock was a 26 year old rookie, and followed the expected
>pattern.  He hit at about his rookie level for a couple more years,
>then faded to nothing (with a blip in 1987).

Brock, while not a great hitter, was better than his replacements at first for
the Dodgers for quite a while (Franklin Stubbs, Enos Cabell, etc). He was 
probably capable of delivering 25 - 30 HR every year, with a .230 - .250
BA if he was left alone. Lasorda simply has little patience with young
players and if they don't start out well, they tend to get the AAA bounce.

>And wasn't Mike Marshall a pretty decent hitter?  (He had other
>problems, but he has always been able to swing the bat.)

Yeah, but he always had back problems, which is why missed an average of about
38 games a year in his Dodger career. BTW, he wasn't much (if any) better 
hitter than Brock. He averaged 1 HR per 23 AB in a Dodger uniform, Brock 1 per
17 AB. For the years they were in Dodger Stadium together, Marshall had an SLG
of ~425 (Brock ~415) and an OBP of ~337 (to ~340 for Brock) Not a whole lot
to choose from, and certainly no reason to villify Brock in comparison to
Marshall.

>Besides, from his minor league numbers I expect Karros to hit a bit
>*better* than he is right now.  He's a quality prospect.

And certainly better than the Dodger have had on a consistent basis for quite
a while.

Mike
-- 
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From: horj@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Eric Scheirer)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Info wanted:  Juan Berenguer
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:59:46 EDT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Cornell University

I play American-only Rostisserie baseball -- I know very little about NL
players, and I need some advice.  I had the rights to Mark Davis when 
he was on the Royals.  (Actually, I shamefully admit that yes, he was *on 
my active roster*.  Speaks volumes about my pitching).  Under our rules,
I now have an empty slot and acquire the rights to Berenguer.  Can someone
tell me something about him?

-- 
Eric Scheirer -- Cornell University, Ithaca, NY -- (607) 277-1899
"I got remote control and a color TV; I don't change channels so they
 must've changed me." -- Billy Joel
From: Jarrod.Miller@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Jarrod Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 6 hits in inning without scoring
Date: 30 Jul 92 21:20:02 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <18792@drutx.ATT.COM> bew@druwa.ATT.COM (WeissBE) writes:
>
>dgh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Doug Huffer) writes
>How can a team get 3 triples, 1 double, 2 singles, and 2 stolen
>bases in their half of an inning without scoring?  He claimed it
>actually occurred in a minor league game.  I will send the
>solution later.

Not as hard as it seems, though it be wierd to see my answer actually
done:

Beginning of inning, 0 outs, 0 runners on base
First batter hits triple
Gets picked off third
After pickoff, second batter hits a triple as well
He gets picked off as well.
Next batter gets a double, and then steals third.
Fourth batter in the inning bunts and is safe on first with a single.
Batter who just bunted steals second.

Batter #3 is now on 3rd, Batter #4 is on 2nd. 2 outs.
Next batter bunts and gets a single as well, with no one advancing.
Batter #6 in the inning pops up or strikes out, whatever.

No runs, 5 hits (2 triples, 1 double, 2 singles), 3 outs

-jarrod


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rdetweil@hpbs1026.boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Re: Past World Series
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 18:14:13 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Boise Printer Division

In article <Brur22.LsL@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jcp29389@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (BEACH VOLLEYBALL!!!) writes:
>noonan@icd3 (Michael Noonan) writes:
>
>>Does anyone have a list of past World Series?  By that I mean a list of
>>the two teams who played in it each year and which one won.
>
>>Any help is appreciated.  Especially if you have the last 10 Series.
>
>>Thanks in advance...
>>-Mike Noonan
>
>i'll try the last 10 off the top of my head....
>

I can help with a few here:


>1991: Twins over Braves 4-3
>1990: Reds over A's 4-0
>1989: A's over Giants 4-0
>1988: Dodgers over A's 4-1
>1987: Twins over Cardinals  (memory starting to fail me)

	1987: Twins over Cardinals  4-3

>1986: Mets over Red Sox

	1986: Mets over Red Sox 4-3

>1985: Royals over Cardinals???

	1985: Royals over Cardinals yep - 4-3 (the imfamous safe call at first!)

>1984: Tigers over Padres
>1983: Orioles and Cardinals???

	1983: Definitely not Cardinals

>1982: Royals and Phillies???

	1982: It was Cardinals over Milwaukee for sure, 4-3 I think.

>1981: Yankees and Dodgers???
>1980: Brewers and Phillies???
>
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Strike 1 on Commissioner
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:53:29 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Jul24.101912@IASTATE.EDU> jkness@IASTATE.EDU (Joel K  
Ness) writes:
> >   The Cubs have been granted their request for a preliminary  
injunction
> 
> What makes more sense Cubbie fans, Atlanta in the NL west or your Cubs?
> This is really stupid!!!  Waaa  Waaaa
> --

Which city is closer to Pittsburgh, New York, Montreal, and the other
Eastern cities?

--
Jim Mann       jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  Stratus Computer
From: mard@quads.uchicago.edu (Adrian N. Marden)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: RULEBOOK TRIVIA 14
Date: 24 Jul 92 19:14:16 GMT
Reply-To: mard@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <36084@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>There are a couple of issues.  First, was the popup fair or foul?
>From the description, it sounds like it was a fair ball; however,
>there would have been a ruling from the umpires and I must infer
>that the ruling was "foul ball", based on later actions.
>This might be wrong, but there's nothing to be done about it.
>
>Second, is the catcher charged with an error?  That's up to
>the scorer, but based on the description, I'd charge an error.
>
>My ruling:  E2 + 1-3

	But the sequence goes: catcher touches ball, throws to pitcher, throws to catcher, to pitcher, to first: E2 + 1-2-1-3.
	However, if the ball is in fair play, how do you rule the batter 
hitting the fair ball (as it is pitched the SECOND time) with his bat? Is this
not an out?
From: p_emond@pavo.concordia.ca (PATRICK EMOND)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Some Padre trade ideas (Expos...)
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:45:00 GMT
Organization: Concordia University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <36095@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes...

> 
>(1)  Santiago for Fletcher/VanderWal
> 
>I think the Expos feel in contention, 
  You bet your ^%$#@ they do...

 and I wonder if they
>would take Benito for Fletcher and VanderWal?  Or even
>Fletcher and any decent OF prospect...

  Fletch is a decent catcher, solid & unspectacular, the type
   of guy that could help anyone (especially if as previously
   discussed, he lowers pitchers' ERA by catching them). In
  terms of OFs, you're talking either VanderWal or Alou; Vandy
  has definitely gotten more interest. If Calderon comes back
  near 100%...

>Santiago would probably help the team offensively, VanderWal
>is a part time player right now and may not be a star, and
>there's no real reason to have both Fletcher and Santiago.

 Vanderwal is the fulltime LF until Alou comes back; he has 
 been solid, nothing spectacular. He won't be a star, but he's
 got the stuff to stick around for a while.
> 
>Of course, Montreal probably couldn't sign Benito long-term;

 That would depend on Benito; the Expos could afford 3 mil or
 so a year for a quality #1 catcher (1992 payroll-15 million$)
 but if he would pull a Langston and be a twit about resigning,
 then I wouldn't make the trade. Besides, Duquette is MUCH smarter
 than Dum-Dum-Dombrowski; his trades so far have been great (Hill,
 Hurst, Fletcher) so he wouldn't pull the trigger unless he was
 reasonably sure Benito would spend 3+ years in the Great White
 North...

>but do have Natal in the pipeline, plus lots of OF prospects, plus
>possibly Calderon coming back for the rest of the year.  Thus
>they give up players who are reasonably replaceable within
>the organization for somebody who might make that 1 or 2 game
>difference in chasing the Pirates.
> 
  The Pirates are playing pretty lousy ball right now, New York has
  slowed down recently (although Coleman's coming back). St. Louis
  is surviving on Guts alone... the next few weeks should determine
  the NL East pennant. The Expos have no gaping holes to fill; the
  injuries of late have been patched up quite well (Cordero, VanderWal,
  Colbrunn) and Barnes may be 5th starter material (looks good so far).

  I just have two words to say--GO EXPOS!

********************************************************************************
Patrick Emond       net.raving expos-fan for r.s.baseball
Concordia U.        Big O attendance: Saturday 41,937
Montreal, Canada                      Sunday   46,620

             MONTREAL EXPOS-FROM WORST TO FIRST???
********************************************************************************
From: rbrbrn@meteor.wisc.edu (Rob Holmes)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Shoot Harry
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:53:01 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Meteorology and Space Science

How in the hell can anyone stand to listen to Harry Carry (sp?)?  I was trying
to watch the Cubs-Reds game last night but I kept getting interupted by that
slob clearing his throat.  And the way he calls a game is just wonderful: 
"there's a ffff...no it was a curve and it was in there for a strike.  I think
that was a slinder."  When is this guy going to get the boot.  Do the people of
Chicago really like this guy?  And he always says "we" when referring to the
Cubs.  I didn't know that he was on the roster.
I say, move to the west, fire Harry, and money-wise, you should come out about
even.
.
From: prism.gatech.EDU!gt6930a@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Oh, no!  I am so sorry...
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:37:00 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
X-mailer: Stadel 3.4a-227
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

Guys, that last post from me was a big mistake.  I didn't realize that
I had anything in my dead. file, and I sent the posting from there directly,
so ya'll got a bunch of garbage that didn't belong there.  I am very sorry.

I hope no one read it all.  That thing was long.


-- 
Kevin Lehde
Lover of cats, the stage, the female form, Toonces K. Templeton, 
the Incredible Hulk, college football (as a sport), Meloni, volleyball,
the Braves, Digger, God, sleeping in, and a rollicking good time.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mmilitzo@scott.skidmore.edu (matthew militzok)
Subject: Re: ** WIFFLEBALL **
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:52:56 GMT

Every summer, I hold a wiffleball league in my home town in west
hartford, CT
we have usually 7-10 players and play about 6-12 games each.
our league is dominated by pitching
in a regulation 6 inning game, with a usually possible 12 outs, 10 are
strikeouts, this is not due to poor hitting, but amazing pitching.
the speed of the pitches coming in, makes it extremely difficult to
hit when the ball moves and curves so rapidly.
scores usually are less than 4 or 5 runs again,. and 2,1, and 0
hitters are frequent
From: ajr@pug.hri.com (MFHorn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Bryan Harvey
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:00:27 GMT
Reply-To: ajr@hri.com
Organization: Horizon Research, Inc.

Does anyone know the scoop on Bryan Harvey?  He's been listed as
day-to-day for a few weeks now in Baseball Weekly's injury report.
When is he really expected back?  How bad is his elbow (will he be
his old self when he does come back)?

Thanks,

--
Andy Rosen (ajr@hri.com)  |  "The most valuable commodity I know of,
Horizon Research, Inc.    |   is information."   -Gordon Gekko, "Wall Street"
1432 Main St.             |  "I got this guitar and I learned how to
Waltham, MA 02154         |   make it talk."   -"Thunder Road"