From: uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Coleman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Lipstick
Date: 11 Sep 1992 23:51:07 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

uunet!mailrus!gatech!meshugge.media.mit.edu!cindy@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Cindy Blank-Edelman) writes:

>Mik Bickis writes:

>> I don't pretend to speak for all men, but I personally think this is a
>> non-issue.  Whether or not a woman wears lipstick, or any other
>> decorations, is irrelevant to me.  I would certainly never consider it
>> a factor if I was interviewing her for a job, or had to deal with her
>> as a colleague or student.  If I had any bias, it would be in favour
>> of a woman who did *not* wear makeup, because that would tell me that she
>> was less likely to be hung up about body-image problems, which, it
>> seems, is still a great distraction for modern women.  But then, I
>> am just revealing my personal preferences, which might not be
>> typical for North American men.  Personally, I think women look
>> better *without* make-up.  -

>It's funny....I know a number of men who also say that they like the
>way women look without make-up.  But those same men still are
>attracted to heavily made-up models and actresses on TV or in
>magazines.  (In fact, wasn't it you that expressed an appreciation for
>"pin-ups"?)  This sends a contradictory message to women (who care
>what men think about the way they look).  What do you think about
>this?

	I don't know; what do you make of the fact that most men are married,
and seem to prefer being married, even though most women don't match those
models, actresses, and pin-ups, made-up or un-made-up?  What does that say
about which of the contradictory messages has more validity?
	The answer is simple: it's fantasy vs. reality.  Most people, men and
women, want something different in their realities than they do in their
fantasies.  Some women (and men, for that matter) have fantasies where they
are raped, but don't actually want to *be* raped.  People fantasize about
being lost on a desert island with someone, but don't want it to *ever*
happen.  The thing about fantasy is that it ignores most of reality, in order
to focus on a very small subset of desirabilities...but most men and women
understand the difference.
	Beauty is extremely superficial, and when the only way you can know a
person, such as a pinup, is superficially, it suffices.  But when we meet a
real woman, the "china doll" look that works in pictures serves instead to 
hide the real indications of personality, the "character" lines.  In reality,
the most overpowering characteristic is personality, not beauty, and we
experience cognitive dissonance when the face doesn't match the personality.

	Fact is, those of us who like and love women, who say we don't care for
makeup, yearn to see the personality we like and love shine through in the
face created by that personality.  The face created by that sense of humor is
the one that will best express that sense of humor, and makeup only serves to
dampen the effect.
	That's not to say we *always* want no makeup; other women have
commented that they watch their SO's eyes grow wide with pleasure when they're
all made up, say, to go to a formal party.  Sure!  She's dressing for a
fantasy; so is the man, probably, wearing a suit or tux.  It's fun to play 
dress-up, to pretend a fantasy for awhile.
	IMO, most women appreciate a man in a tux.  How many women want the man
to wear the tux *all the time*?  Damn few, I bet.  I could ask the same
question you did: you can tell me that a tux isn't necessary, but I can see
the effect the picture of a man in a tux has on women; how do you explain
this contradictory message I get?

	Above, I mentioned that makeup dampens the effect of the true
personality, and frankly, I think that's some of the point.  Makeup is an 
easy way to avoid having to do the *hard* work: working on the personality.
I believe makeup is a substitute for doing the hard work, and "whitewashes" 
away the visual effects of a bad personality.
	Before anyone goes nuts, I should point out that for men, success
works the same way.  Men use money to avoid having to work on personality.
Beauty and success are crutches men and women use to avoid having to face 
the fact that their are innate things about our personalities that are 
unnattractive.  Personality flaws can be fixed, but it's *hard work*, much 
harder than, say, smearing on some base or even working 60 hour weeks.

	So what does beauty or wealth do?  They make a good first impression.
If all the contact you'll ever have is that first impression, then it's very
important.  But for most of us, we'll experience a lot more than that first
impression with the person who becomes our SO, and the beauty or wealth 
component quickly takes a backseat to more important considerations.  The
effect that beauty or wealth has on us depends on our understanding of the
difference between reality and fantasy; sure, we all know the guy who just
has to have a beautiful wife, or the woman who's divorcing her husband because
he isn't successful enough for her.  But most of us have a better grounding
in reality than that.

	In reality, the more "model perfect" a woman is, the *less* likely I
am to want to get to know her.  She may be wonderful to observe from a
distance; she might be great for a one-night stand.  If all I want is a 
superficial relationship, beauty, and makeup, are wonderful.  But I have a 
long-standing bias that a model-perfect woman and a wealthy man probably have
enormous character flaws.  I'm curious: am I alone in this?

	As far as I'm concerned, model-perfect women and wealthy men deserve
each other.  For me, for reality, give me a real woman, one whose positive
and negative characteristics are honestly presented, so that I have the best
chance of correctly evaluating whether this is the person for me.

	(Note:  this analysis gives a very real reason for companies to prefer
people to dress and appear in ways that express a "corporate image".  Much
of business contact is superficial, and what counts most is that first
impression.)

>So, would fake beards and the like be an "extravagance"?  A non-issue?
>Even if, eventually, all the men on TV and in the magazines had
>beards?  Even if a man or two were fired because he refused to wear a
>fake beard?

	I think this analogy misses the point.  It implies that men are not
subject to social and work pressures on appearance, and that isn't true.
It *is* true that there are a greater variety of requirements on women (though
it is also true that women have more freedom in the ways they have to meet
those requirements).  It is true that the cost is higher for women.  Still, 
men often *do* have to purchase suits or uniforms for their jobs, and suits 
aren't cheap.  Refusing to wear a suit can still result in enormous job 
penalties, including firing, for some men.  In the US, for instance, I can't 
imagine most TV anchormen maintaining their jobs if they refused to buy a 
suit.  In many companies, a suit in management is required.
	So is a suit a non-issue?  I dunno.  I found a line of work where it's 
not required; there are plenty of jobs for women where makeup isn't required.
The best jobs usually require makeup and a suit; the best jobs for men
generally require a suit, and often "clean-shaven".  Service jobs, such as, 
say, airline attendents, often require a particular dress appearance, both for 
men and women.  Yes, it's unfair that there's an extra requirement for women; 
but let's not pretend that men get off scot-free.  

Robert C.
-- 
----------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: My company has not yet seen fit to
	    elect me as spokesperson. Hmmpf.


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