HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Date: 22 Dec 92 17:10:32 GMT
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <dnsurber.724086417@node_26400> dnsurber@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (Douglas N. Surber) writes:
>In <1992Dec11.023403.24710@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

>Again, maybe I'm being really dense, but what is Gordon's point about
>violating physics?  You have commented on some moral/philosophical
>differences but much of what you said with respect to the material
>world seems to agree with Chuck, if not the particular intellectual slant.
>

He keeps repeating that eating less will make you fatter due to
some miraculous effect that slows your metabolism, so that in
his imaginary world we have all these grossly obese people walking
around whose metabolisms are so ruined that they eat very little
and yet weight a ton.  It is just absurd.  No human studies have
ever demonstrated any such thing.  If your metabolism goes down, you 
either generate less heat or less mechanical energy (exercise).  I
suspect many obese are quite sedentary for obvious reasons, but
he doesn't claim that is what is happening.  Another claim is
that one loses one's muscle mass through cycle dieting.  If so,
that indeed would lead to a lowered metabolism.  However, every
study I've seen on humans and cycle dieting shows that they don't
lose their lean mass.  In my case, I have been through two moderate
cycles (50 lbs or so) while my LBM has been determined through measurements
at many different weights and so I know in my case that I didn't
lose *any* LBM within experimental error.  My metabolism also has
not changed over many cycles, which can be demonstrated by how much
weight I lose on a diet where the calories are recorded.  I have no
reason to suspect that I am "special" in this regard.  From other
studies, it would seem that I am not special, and I suspect
Chuck isn't special either.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Generic drug store brands.
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 04:41:37 GMT

In article <30DEC92.01313522@nerus.pfc.mit.edu> mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu writes:
>Is it worth the money to pay for brand name drugs such as Tylenol versus drug
>store brands?

No.

>Am I simply paying for the name?

Yes.

>I notice a difference in the
>non-active ingredients.  Are they significant?

No.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Xref: sparky sci.med:23167 sci.med.physics:526
From: esrmm@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Denis Anthony)
Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.med.physics
Subject: Assessment of skin of the incontinent patient, and measurement of size of decubitus ulcers.
Date: 29 Dec 1992 17:29:19 -0000
Organization: Warwick University, Great Britain
NNTP-Posting-Host: violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk
Keywords: Decubitus Ulcers, Incontinence

Some weeks ago I requested information from any workers in the field
of assessment of skin with reference to incontinence dermatitis and
measurement of pressure sores. I got precisely one reply, from a group
in Wales who are concerned with pressure sore measurement. There
appears no interest in measuring (e.g.) the colour of erythematous
skin in incontinent patients. A search though index medicus has
revealed a similar lack of information.

I am writing a paper on this subject, and will finish it this week,
and will place the initial draft in the ftp site ftp.warwick as
ftp.warwick.ac.uk:/pub/papers/skin_assess.ps (postscript) and
ftp.warwick.ac.uk:/pub/papers/skin_assess.tex (latex). If anyone has
any interest in this and cannot ftp it I will email it, please state
whether postscript or latex is required.

If anyone missed previous posting and has some contribution to make I
should be most grateful.
From: ark@alice.att.com (Andrew Koenig)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: aids testing and insurance
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:21:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24470
Reply-To: ark@alice.UUCP ()
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ

In article <17871@pitt.UUCP> geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:

> The consequences are quite certain.  The data is shared with all
> other underwriters and you will be put in the data base as HIV+
> and thus uninsurable.  If you have any doubt, don't let an insurance
> company test you.  

In which case, you will be put in the data base as `refused test'
and will be uninsurable too.

There was a story about six months ago about a woman who went for
a mammogram.  The technician botched the test somehow and she had
to go back for another one, which was negative.

When she applied for insurance later on, she was turned down for
`two mammograms within a six-month period.'  The fact of her application,
of course, changed that to `insurance denied for medical reasons.'

I doubt she'll ever be able to undo the damage.
-- 
				--Andrew Koenig
				  ark@europa.att.com
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Bashing, truth, etc.
Date: 31 Dec 92 18:31:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: pitt.17942
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <Bzo4A6.uE@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>>>I do not need any data whatever to know that saccharin has an effect on
>>>cancer rates, or that vitamin C has an effect on longevity, or even that
>>>the most disreputable quack treatments have an effect.
>
>>is not exactly what the rest of us would consider consistent with
>>scientific medicine.  If these statements are true, it should be
>>possible to design studies to prove them true.  If the beneficial effect
>>of some treatment is unmeasurable, then its utility is negligible.
>
>Read the statements more carefully.  I said that I do not need any data
>to show that it has an effect.  This means that the effect is not
>EXACTLY zero.  This statement says nothing about the magnitude of
>the effect.  

No, you need data to "show that it has an effect".  It could very well
be zero, and although you may suppose it isn't, without data you can't
show that.  As long as it is close enough to zero that you can't
discover which direction it lies, we are justified in the position
that the effect is zero.  What's more, it could well be exactly
zero.  Do you really believe that whether or not you get up from
your desk and go get a drink of water in the next five minutes
has a systematic effect on your life-span?  Sure you could encounter
a murderer at the drinking fountain, but if you stayed at your
terminal a meteor could crash through the roof killing you.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: med50003@nusunix1.nus.sg (WANSAICHEONG KHIN-LIN)
Subject: Re: Deodorants Harmful?
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:48:45 GMT

In Diane Bailey's post about aluminium and Alzheimer's diease, the
argument seems to be (if I can follow it) :

aluminium is dangerous
aluminium does not need to be present in brain tissue to cause
Alzheimer's
aluminium can pass through the blood brain barrier and presumable leave
again so therefore need not be present at the time of study 

But (and this is a significant but), where was the evidence that
aluminium is at all involved in Alzheimer's disease without the
findings of aluminium in the neural plaques? Was there any association
before this finding?

Aluminium is associated with a dialysis dementia that occurs when high
amounts of aluminium are present in the dialysate. This should not occur
now since it is a known complication and the preparations do check to
ensure the levels are low.

One of the significant conclusions that were drawn from the original
studies (assuming that it was correct) was that since aluminium is not
normally found in the brain - that aluminium is effectively stopped by
the blood brain barrier from accumalating in large amounts; then the
presence indicated a pathological process either is the ability to keep
it out or acquisition by the neural tissue.

gervais
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Health hazard in halogen lights?
From: habersch@husc9.harvard.edu (Oren Haber-Schaim)
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:02:48 GMT

<ICBAL@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:

>My wife was looking for a small powerful light for her make-up table and
>finally settled on one of those halogen desk lamps; the light it gives
>is very strong. But someone said they heard somewhere that the light from
>these lamps is not good for the eyes when viewed directly--you should use
>them for reflected light only (reading, etc.).  Does anyone have any
>information either way?

>Bruce Long

I wasn't aware that women apply makeup by looking directly at
halogen, or any other, lamps.  That would seem to be counterproductive.
Perhaps you have not observed your wife very carefully?

As I pointed out recently, most halogen incandescents have hotter
filaments than most nonhalogen incandescents, and thus produce
more UV.  But the difference in temperature is only a few percent,
typically, compared to the sun's radiation temperature which is
double that of either (6000K vs. 3000K);   the UV output of the
lamp is piddling compared to that of the sun. 

Anyway, look at the bright side (npi):  your wife is guaranteed
not to get vitamin D deficiency in the winter!


Oren Haber-Schaim                    habersch@husc.harvard.edu
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Peter Breggin, _Toxic Psychiatry_ (Q)
Date: 28 Dec 92 00:10:47 GMT
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <BzD6GI.DvH@unx.sas.com> sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com (Gary Merrill) writes:

>It is clear that you consider schizophrenia to be a disease.  I
>wonder how you feel about such things as depression and attention
>deficit disorder.  Are these diseases as well?
>
Yes.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ed.Van.Hezik@f0.n0.z0.wlink.nl (Ed Van.Hezik)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: aluminium asthma
Date: 24 Dec 92 00:49:01 GMT

We look for physicians or medical physiologists with experience
in potroom- asthma : asthma/COPD symptoms caused in the environment
of aluminium-melting.
Thanx Ed  van Hezik MD Use/InterNet 60:100/108
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: lawriel@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Linda Lawrie)
Subject: Information on Drug Zolof?
Organization: US Army Corps of Engineers
Distribution: sci.med
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:51:19 GMT

Does anyone have information on a drug called, I think, Zolof?

My mother-in-law was on Prozac for a while and supposedly was
put on this because of rising blood pressure.

Zolof is not in my drug book and I haven't had a chance yet to
get to where there is a Physician's Desk Reference.

Email would be nice, but I can read sci.med for the followups.


-- 
     Linda Lawrie
     lawriel@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: post-Prozac reactions
From: RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg)
Date: 21 Dec 92 09:35:26 EDT
 <1992Dec17.201838.5426@dragon.acadiau.ca> <1992Dec20.213035.15002@newstand.syr.edu>
Distribution: world
Organization: Philosophy Dept., Wesleyan University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20In-Reply-To: mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu's message of 21 Dec 92 02:30:35 GMTLines: 28

In <1992Dec20.213035.15002@newstand.syr.edu> mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu writes:

> People struggle to find explanations for behaviors and feelings which
> seem out of character -- e.g., bursts of irritability, lapses in
> judgment, increased need for reassurance, as well as physical 
> symptoms -- which arise during periods of stress or in the context of a
> depressive illness.  It is always something - if it's not Prozac, it's
> PMS, it's not running enough, eating too much, or too little, or too
> much or too little of this or that.  Sometimes these explanatory models
> are right, or may be right, and sometimes they are very flakey.
> Sometimes people overlook the writing on the wall and round up the
> usual suspects, so to speak.  "The Prozac made me do it." Well, problem
> is, many people feel suicidal or homocidal who aren't taking Prozac.
> Large numbers of people taking Prozac don't seem to be any more violent
> or suicidal than large numbers of people taking other antidepressant
> medications.

Logicians have a name for the human propensity to attribute an effect to an
obvious (alleged) cause, too hastily. (The human propensity Mark just
described.)  It is called the Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy.  The
definition of a fallacy, BTW, is "a pattern of reasoning which is erroneous,
but which appears sensible enough that reasoners frequently become misled."  
Therefore, a logical fallacy is, by definition, an *intelligent* mistake, NOT
an obvious or dumb one.

------------------------
Ruth Ginzberg <rginzberg@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Philosophy Department;Wesleyan University;USA
From: sdavis@khan.ColoSpgs.NCR.COM (Susan Davis)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Leukemia and Pregnancy
Date: 21 Dec 92 22:32:07 GMT
Reply-To: sdavis@khan.ColoSpgs.NCR.COM (Susan Davis)
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Microelectronic Products Division

A very close friend of mine in expecting in late April (11 days before me!!)
I just received a Christmas card from her and it seems that she was told last
week that she has Leukemia.

Her routine blood tests (during early pregnancy) showed some abnormalities
and further tests confirmed the diagnosis.

I talked briefly with her husband (she was not home) and they are optimistic
at this point.  The consider her pregnancy a blessing (miracle) because
otherwise, she was told that she may not have been diagnosed for a few more
years.  Her prognosis is good because hers is "cronic myon... " CML and not
acute at this point.  

Because of her high platelet count, she may have to deliver at University
hospital in Denver which has to tools needed to pre-store some of her blood
and process to be retranfussed after delivery if needed.

Her siblings (she has 5) are all being tested as possible bone marrow donors.
They expect to do a transplant in Seattle sometime after the baby is born.

Naturally I am concerned for her and her baby.  Does anyone have info
on cancer during pregnancy (and treatment).  Can anyone tell me more about
this type of Leukemia?  How successful are bone marrow transplants assuming
that a perfect match can be found?

Thanks!

-- Susan Davis 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Susan P. Davis, Design Services |  >>>>                 Susan.Davis@ncr-mpd |  |NCR Microelectronics  (AT&T)    | >>>>         Susan.Davis@ColoSpgs.NCR.COM |  |Colorado Springs, CO            |>>>>(719) 596-5795 x435 VOICEplus 463-0435 |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.med
From: dnsurber@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (Douglas N. Surber)
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Organization: Lockheed Engineering and Sciences
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:53:31 GMT

In <1992Dec21.002143.26900@crd.ge.com> stpeters@crd.ge.com (Dick St.Peters) writes:

>In article 133@ky3b.UUCP, km@ky3b.pgh.pa.us (Ken Mitchum) writes:
>> In article <dnsurber.724007610@node_26400>, dnsurber@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (Douglas N. Surber) writes:
>> |> Your point seems to be that one pound of fat is the equivalent of some
>> |> fixed number of calories, thus if one eats so many extra calories, he
>> |> will gain so many extra pounds.
>> 
>> Yup. 3500, if I remember correctly.

>Actually, there's a conversion efficiency.  N calories of food intake does
>not become N calories of fat.  The efficiency is very high for conversion
>of food fat to stored fat, but for food protein or food carbohydrates to
>stored fat a significant percentage of the nominal calories is used up in
>the conversion process.  I can't remember reliable numbers, and my sources
>are back home, but numbers like 90% for fat and 60% for carbohydrates and
>proteins come to mind.

>I'm pretty sure a pound of human fat has very close to 3600 calories.

OK.  I guess that this is the crux of my question.  Just how consistent are
these conversion efficiency numbers between people?  Also, how precisely can
these numbers be determined for a single person?

It would seem that it is likely that two people could have a conversion
efficiency difference of several percent, maybe even 10% or more.  If this
is the case, then two people could eat the same amount, excercise the same
amount, and still one gain weight and the other not.  And this is only one
metabolic path.  What about the efficiency of the gut in extracting various
components, protein, carbohydrates, fats, from the ingested food?  What about
the efficiency of converting sugars into ATP?  My uneducated guess is that
these could combine to produce substantial differences in food to fat/exercise
efficiency.

Of course I could also be totally wrong.



--
Douglas Surber             "Would you rather debug at
Lockheed                    compile time or run time?"
Houston, TX                      --Michael B. Feldman
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: abraham@sscvx1.ssc.gov
Subject: Norplant side effects
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:03:13 GMT

Norplant side effects

Is anybody know,
What are the side effects of using 'Norplant' for birth control ?
From: llama@tramp.cc.utexas.edu (sine nomine)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Date: 3 Jan 93 21:23:26 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Chuck Forsberg (caf@omen.UUCP) wrote:

: According to Kreitzman, the critical threshold for ketosis is
: about 50-60 grams per day CHO.  The transition about this
: threshold is abrupt, 10g/day makes a profound difference.  At
: 75g CHO/day it would seem unlikely for one to attain ketosis,
: but only the Ketostix would know for sure.

my experience with dieting and diet coke is pretty similar to beth
mazur's (the person to whom the quoted article was responding). in
1989, i weighed a little over 300 pounds (i'm 5'8", btw) and lost
around a hundred pounds between may and december (and managed to lose
my gallbladder in the process) by means of a self-imposed vlcd. i
hovered around 190 for two years until a clinical depression last
march. staying inside and eating ice cream all summer got my weight up
to 215. the depression began to abate in august and finally on 1
november i decided it was time for another self-imposed vlcd (i eat
fewer than 600 calories most days, though i've allowed myself maybe
six or seven days of 1200-1500 calories since then) and i'm now at 184
and still losing. with both diets, i consumed large quantities of
diet coke. it doesn't seem to have had any effect.

i have no clue about whether or not i'm in ketosis (my breath is weird
to me but that could also be because of the ephedrine i'm taking).
frankly, i don't care if i'm in ketosis or not; what matters is that
the diet's working, the weight's coming off, and i'm happy. so far
ephedrine and exercise seem to have been effective at keeping my
metabolism up.

if diet cycling's inevitable, how was i able to keep the hundred or so
pounds off for nearly two and a half years? and note that the weight
gain had more to do with clinical depression (my second episode;
during the first, in 84, i gained a great deal of weight) than with
rebound effects.

when i eat too much and don't move enough, i get fat. when i stop
eating and start moving, i lose weight. you seem to be saying that
this observation isn't valid.

: Next time, try Diet Pepsi.  I wouldn't touch Diet Coke unless it's
: 50% cheaper than Pepsi :-) 

ah, i begin to understand the problem... <grin>

--
sine nomine | deb martinson
what did macbeth say when birnam wood came to dunsinane?
"cheese it, the copse"
From: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Date: 31 Dec 92 06:31:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: omen.1992Dec31.063136.21570
Organization: Omen Technology INC, Portland Rain Forest

In article <1992Dec30.184401.15382@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.112625.12466@omen.UUCP> caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg) writes:
>>One note for "Atkinites":  Apparently citric acid bollixes ketosis in
>>40-50% of dieters on a ketogenic low carbohydrate diet.   And guess what,
>>that stuff is in just about every diet soda except Dr. Pepper according
>>to the labels I've read.  Film at 11, details in next Adiposity 101.
>
>I would imagine that it depends on the amount of citric acid ingested.
>It's metabolized like a carbohydrate (it is the "citric acid cycle", after
>all.)  The amount of citric acid someone would get from drinking diet sodas
>is very small compared to their carbohydrate intake, even on an Atkins diet.
>Note that most people on a 300-600 calorie/day diet will experience ketosis
>even with a substantial part of this being carbohydrates.  In any event,
>the idea that diet sodas prevent ketosis in a large number of large people
>is pretty far-fetched.
>
>>Note I am not endorsing the Atkins diet, just sharing some info.
>>As far as I can discern, Atkins isn't worse than other
>>weight loss diets given the same amount of weight loss.
>
>The problem is that you "share" these biochemical minutiae which have
>no necessary relevance to the problems people who have to lose weight face.

Actually the information appeared in the American Journal of
Clinical Nutrition, the mouthpiece of the diet establishment,
virtually the sole source of papers Gordon uses to dispute some
of the points made in Adiposity 101.

The 40-50% figure is what the author told me in a recent
telephone conversation.

I did find a few references to citric acid and metabolism in the
literature.  It is not just another carbohydrate.

The paper is in Am J of Clin Nutr 1992;56:217S-23S.  It has some
rather interesting findings about VLCD and their remarkable
sensitivity to tiny variations in CHO.  Wouldn't hurt to read it.


>You have no intelligent filter which allows you to weight these
>trivia: every research report in IJO and other places seems to you to
>have equal importance.

And just who does have such an intelligent filter?  Let the one
with a statistically significant long term cure rate cast the
first stone.

Until there's a cure (or even a safe and effective treatment)
many will use VLCD and/or Atkins.  As reported on the net, results
with Atkins have been spotty.  Switching from Diet Coke to Dr
Pepper might help some of them.

I didn't claim that avoiding citric acid was the key to life,
the universe, and eternal thinness.  I didn't claim it has an
effect on my health.  But it might be useful to some, unless
you feel they should suffer for their sins.

-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX          ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf 
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, and DSZ
  Omen Technology Inc    "The High Reliability Software"
17505-V NW Sauvie IS RD   Portland OR 97231   503-621-3406
Newsgroups: sci.med