From: runyan@cup.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: School vouchers
Date: 10 Oct 92 20:50:34 GMT
Organization: HP, Cupertino, CA, USA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]


I had not realized that the string was also being discussed in
ca.politics.  My apologies for the oversight.  I received asylvain's
mail and sent this a response.  Since I believe we've agreed to
make this part of the discussion public, I'll post my response to
his response (which he posted here in ca.politics)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Response from runyan - - - - - -- - - - -- -
Thank you for your interest in the on going discussion.  I welcome your
insight on the points Phil is making.

>From: Alvin <asylvain@felix.filenet.com>
>>  by runyan@cup.hp.com (Mark Runyan):
>: Phil Ronzone (phil@netcom.com) wrote:
>:> I state that no one has a claim on my existence. Period. I may trade
>:> my efforts, intellect, property, etc. for other such things from other
>:> people, but that no one has any "claim" to my property.
>: This does lead me to wonder about a few things.  When you `trade [your]
>: efforts, intellect, property, etc" for things, you are doing so through
>: some sort of agreement.
>At this point you can stop.  You just said the operative word, "agreement."

Hmmm.  Stopping at agreement seems a bit premature.  It is a necessary
point, and one that I hope that everyone is getting.  But there is much
more to the issue than stopping there, isn't there?  But lets try stopping
there.

>Have you agreed to support schools?
>Have you agreed to feed the kids in Somalia (wherever the hell THAT is)?

How many types of agreement are there?  If I understand the above
sentence about "operative word", and these questions, I'm infer you
believe that all agreements must be explicit (oral, written, or
recorded).  Is this correct?

If so, then (to answer your questions) I don't remember any explicit
agreement to support schools, kids in Somalia, or my child, for that
matter.

>:> How large is this community? City? County? State? Nation? World?
>: Since Michael did not see Somalia entering into the discussion, I think
>: we can safely eliminate World as part of the community under discussion.
>May I please eliminate the City from the community under discussion?  I
>support my family, by agreement, and I think that's quite enough, thank
>you very much.

This appears to mean that you have reduced your `community' to your
family (by this do you mean immediate/nuclear family or extended
family?).  This seems much too small to accomplish all the goals you
have for yourself.  Perhaps it isn't, though.  I do know that my family
(both immediate and extended) is not sufficient to my life style.
Therefore I have some doubt you would be capable of providing those
services that a city provides you to live comfortably.  It is possible,
of course, but it isn't very common.  So, you may not have `agreed' to
such things as schools, police force, garbage, water, roads,
restaurants, fire protection, and other such major and minor services
that a city provides.  But, if you make use of them (assuming you don't
live in an isolated location, which I can not tell about you since I do
not know you), then there must be some sort of `agreement' there.  What
is that kind of `agreement' called?

>:> I state that the limit is 0 -- that no one has a claim on your
>:> existence.
>: This limit is a good theory, but does it work in practice?
>Yes.  

I apologized to Phil for using slang like this.  I should realize that
it doesn't work as well in writing as in person.  My question should
probably be rephrased as "What societies allow this limit?"  I'd like
to compare them to this one (which by implication is *not* one of
these societies).

>Altho, I wonder if you actually understand where Phil is coming
>from.  Most of your article indicates, to me at least, that you don't.

Perhaps I don't know where Phil is coming from.  If you consider it
worth your time, I will read any hints you are willing to provide.  

On the other hand, I might have some idea of Phil's position, but may
not understand his point of view as well as I need to.  I haven't had
time to read all of the posts he makes, so I probably missed an
important point somewhere.  But I have read enough to know that Phil
will provide me with the information should he feel it worthwhile.

Mark Runyan