HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tehhhal@ioe.ac.uk (MR HANIF LADHA)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Muslims, Munafiqin, Kafirin
Date: 19 Nov 92 22:49:06 GMT
Organization: Institute of Education, University of London

In <1992Nov19.135612.22086@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash) writes:

>Any way after the last message, the terms can be explained as:

>A muslim is the one who declares Islam through Shahadah ( To testify
>that there is no deity but Allah, and that Muhammed is His servant and
>messenger ).
>Then accepts to be a member of the muslim Ummah, having the same
>rights and giving the same duties. Of course accepting all the

This I think is rather idealistic.  First of all we as Muslims (& I 
claim to be one) cannot claim that "the muslim Ummah" exists.  Consequently
muslims do not necessarily have the same rights and duties as "other"
muslims.

>committments of a Muslim, performing the other five pillars of Islam,
>etc.

The "five pillars" differ between the two major sects of Muslims (the Sunni
and the Shi`a).  Which of the two sects a better muslims?  Is such a
question necessary (and valid)?

>Being a Muslim does not mean a lot. Any one can declare Shahadah, and
>join the crowed of Muslims...

Here I agree with you.

>A Mou'min is the one who accepts Islam as a matter of belief, and this
>is between you and Allah. It is not just declaring Shahadah from his
>tongue, but having it deep into his heart. the One who believes in the
>Quran, and the other dvivine books and the other messengers, the Angels,
>the last day, and that every thing mentioned in the Quran is true, and
>he is ready to sacrifice himself for a single word in the Quran, because
>he is waiting for Heaven. ( note I am not writing a formal definition ).

All this is fine, EXCEPT, the Quran speaks in parables.  Thus there is need
for interpretation.  Who is qualified to interpret to interpret the word of
God?

I am by no means trying to be an antagonist.  These are some of the
questions which I am dealing with.  The concept of definition is something
that I am also trying to grapple with.  Defining things (people) and
categorising, sometime, I believe limits our overall understanding?  Anyhow
enough said.  Look forward to further discussion.


Regards,


Hanif.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael Gschwind)
Subject: Re: PALESTINIANS
Organization: Vienna University of Technology
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:18:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.230811.25475@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso) writes:

   What are the differences between arabs and palestinians,
   other than that palestinians lived in palestian?
   I want to know if there are culture differences, language differences, etc.
   Why are they a people?

Palestinians are a subset of Arabs (most of them - there are about
5000 Greek Palestinians, for example - they get discriminated against
by Israeli authorities as do Arab Palestinians, feel distinctly
Palestinian, but their (first) native language is Greek (they normally
also speak Arab), their religion is Greek-Orthodox,...)

Language differences exist all over the Arab world, and those are
quite drastic, so it is little wonder that the Palestinians should
have 'their own' dialect.

Are they a people? If Moroccans, Iraqis, and others are a people, then
they are as well (which I would advocate) - there are people who argue
that just one generic 'Arab people' exists, and everybody constitutes
part of this people.

mike
--

Michael Gschwind, Dept. of VLSI-Design, Vienna University of Technology
mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at	(*) BOZO is a registered 
(currently somewhere in             trademark of Bush/Quayle 92
the Bay Area, back sometime     (*) UNIX is a registered 
at the end of this year)	    trademark of AT&T
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: RE: Arab U N I T Y
Date: 18 Nov 1992 17:20:50 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad) writes:

One note about your name Abdelgawad should be written as AbdelJawad,
if you are a true muslim!

>You rule out race, language, and political stance.  I agree.  By similar
>arguments, I rule out religion (otherwise, we would have to include muslim
>republics in the former USSR, muslims in Afghanistan, Bagladesh, India,
>Iran, ...). Do you agree?

            ***     W h y    N  O  T  ?   ***

If you look back in history, all the western Arab countries were not
Arabic speaking countries, i.e. Algeria, Marraco, Tunisia, Moritania,
even Swdan and Egypt.  Egypt was ruled by Qubts who were not speaking
Arabic.  And after Islam came to these countries, people started to
speak Arabic language as it is the language of Islam and Quran.  Arabic
language was the original language of the Arabian peninsula.  An Arab was
whoever talked Arabic and lived in arabia desert.

When Islam spread, people changed their mother toungue language to
Arabic and later on were called Arabs not because they were from the
Arabian penisula but rather because they speak ARABIC.  A christian
or jewish arab are people who lived or live in arab countries.

Therefore if I find a muslim from USSR who speaks Arabic better than
somebody who is from any where in the middle east, I, as an arab,
would say I have much more to share with the one from the USSR.
Therefore there is nothing worng to get all muslims any where in the
world to be united under one government.

The point is it doesn't matter what the people race is, what matter is
what their common grounds are.
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
From: mks9e@amsun26.apma.Virginia.EDU (Mustafa Kemal Husein Saiyid)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Mosque in CHARLOTTESVILLE VA
Date: 22 Nov 92 18:19:14 GMT
Reply-To: mks9e@amsun26.apma.Virginia.EDU (Mustafa Kemal Husein Saiyid)
Organization: University of Virginia

Dear Muslims,

I'm posting this letter to the net on behalf of the Islamic Society
of Albemarle County and Charlottesville in Virginia.

In recent years we have been blessed by a growing muslim presence on
and around the University of Virginia. Each year more muslims arrive,
a few stay and more faces appear regularly at Friday prayers and at
lectures and activities sponsored by the UVA Muslim Student
Association. Although this growth is a wonderful gift of Allah, it
makes all too obvious our need for a place to call our own.

Traditionally, the masjid formed a nucleus about which a town or
city revolved. We here in Charlottesville find ourselves with no
permanent presence and no base for Islamic practice, education or
propagation. Out jumma prayers are in a church, and although to
the ignorant or naive university administrator it is "non-
denominational," the UVA chapel is all-too-Christian. Many of
us find worshipping in a place surrounded by crucifixes and
depictions of a supposed son of God revolting_if not just
plain haram.

Some concerned Muslims in the area met to discuss this issue
on the first of the month. They made a tentative plan for
establishing an Islamic organization with a permanent facility
within the town and near the University. The result was the
Islamic Society of Albemarle County and Charlottesville.

ISAAC has set a goal of $150,000  for the purchase and
establishment of house for Muslims. This money would come
from Islamic and corporate organizational donations, parents of
students, Muslim families and individuals and organized not for
profit ventures. Our secretary is pursuing formal documentation
of ISAAC as a religious and legal corporation/association as well
as the appropriate tax exempt status.

We welcome all suggestions, assistance and participation.
Please contact:
Inayat von Briesen
ISAAC Acting President
109 Woodrow Street #36
Charlottesville, VA 22903
(804)296-7854

or
Mustafa K. Saiyid
837-6 Copeley III
Station 2
Charlottesville, VA 22904
(804)979-7850
mks9e@amsun.apma.virginia.edu

Finally, please remember that of the myriad activities that take our time
and energy, in the end there are only a few that we can proudly hold
forth before God when our time comes.

                                    Thank you,
                                    Mustafa Saiyid
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: pmf$1349@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re:  CFV:  ahmadiyya
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:55:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: altair.1992Nov18.205539.1089
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

In article <102313@bu.edu>, khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid) wrote:

> This expression: Seal of the prophets, has been taken by these Mullahs to
> mean last of the prophets, which it does not mean.  An idea of this can
> be had from the fact that the word "Khatam" (seal) has often been used in
> arabic literature to mean perfect in every sense, and the greatest of all,
> but not the last, of all:
 
Shakil answered:

>Is this meant to be a joke?  Do you really know Arabic?  The primary
>meaning of the word "khatam" is "seal" as in to "seal a process" or
>"close," i.e. "end."  If you would care to look through the Qur'an,
>you will find this is consistent.  Finding some metaphorical uses of
>the word in bizarre contexts where it means "ring" or "to show
>greatness" is as ridiculous as interpreting "seal" to mean the literal
>wax emblem used on letters in this context.  How come it didn't occur
>to millions of Muslims for hundreds of years that "Khatamun-Nabiyyeen"
>could mean some of the things you suggest?  There was no doubt in
>*anyone's* mind what the Arabic word meant in this context.  Any
>native speaker of Arabic will tell you the primary meaning of the
>word, namely "last", "finish", or "complete."

In support of Shakil's argument it may help to add that the correct
word used in the Holy Quran is KHATIM unnabyin which means the complete
and finish (i.e. no other naby after).  KHATAM (which means ring) is not 
the word used, thus the KHATAM argument is false.  Therefore, prophet 
Muhammad was the finish of the nabiyyin according to the Holy Quran and 
there is no nabi after him.

Then Khaled wrote:
> The question is: if Khatam in arabic has continually been used for greatness
> rather than being at the end of a process, 

See the above paragraph.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Rami Hijazi
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Western Puppet or Western Regimes
Date: 19 Nov 92 04:04:49 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <jhardono.3.722125949@ucs.indiana.edu> jhardono@ucs.indiana.edu (JUMAHADI HARDONO) writes:

>	Everybody knows the western puppets in the middle east. Let me
>list you those puppets :

>	Egypt : Hosni Mubarak and his regime
>	Jordan: King Hussein
>	Turky : Sulaiman
>	Iraq  : Saddam
>	Saudi  : Fahd
>	Kuwait : Emir
>	Tunisia: ? Can you tell me...

His last name is Ben Ali ...

>	Bangladesh: ? Can you tell me...

Khalida Zia is the prime minister, but I'm not sure about the
president ...
 
>	Pakistan ( half)

But isn't the government implimenting sharia there?

You forgot one!!

	Syria:  Assad

>I believe that  these puppets will be toppled down by Mujahiddeen , the holy
>fighters, insyaAllah...

Wa Ikhwan al-Muslimeen ...

Insha'Allaho ta'ala ...

:-)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Israel Apartheid????
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:09:40 GMT

In article <MIKE.92Nov18012100@guam.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>, mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael Gschwind) writes:
> In article <1992Nov10.203328.5784@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:
> 
> Depends on the country - historically, Muslims have treated the Jews
> better than have the Christians, I have to observer though - many Jews
> from Spain fled to Fez, for example ...
> 

Statements like these are deceiving.  There was a period of Muslim
rule in Spain in which Islamic Law was not applied strictly
to the Jews, pragmatic egalitarian
principles started to be developed, and as a consequence Jews
fared very well in Spain during that period.
Same is true about Turkey.  For instance
in pre-Almohavid Iberia, Jews could testify in a Muslim court
of Law against a Muslim, or could bring suit against a Muslim,
both not allowed in stricter Islamic societies.
This situation rapidly changed under the
Almohavids, who destroyed the Jewish communities of Granada,
and most of Southern Spain.  Crypto-Judaism began
during this period as a reaction against Muslim forced conversions,
not the later Inquisition of the Christians.  Crypto-Jewish Muslims
began fleeing northward towards the then more tolerant
Christian parts of Spain.  Meanwhile in North
Africa, things were so bad, that when Maimonides fled Seville,
he was compelled to take on Islam, and only in Cairo where
his reputation as a doctor made him essential to the Sultan
was he allowed to throw off Islam and become a Jew again
(the penalty in Islamic countries for apostating against
Islam, i.e. returning to Judaism, is death, just like under
the Inquisition).  Long before the expulsion, North Africa
had very large Jewish populations, by 1492, when the Sephardic
refugees re-enriched those communities, there were much fewer.
Less accessible regions like the Atlas Mountains or
the Southern areas of Libya, still had very old Berber Jewish
populations into this century.

So when one makes claims about better or worse under Christianity
or Islam, one needs to look at how fanatical vs. pragmatic
the rulers were.  Islamic fanatics persecuted Jews as much
as the worst Christian persecutions.  Pragmatic rulers
made life quite decent for Jews.

		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
From: ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Israel Apartheid????
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:21:34 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston

In article <1992Nov22.160418.26100@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>
>In 1948, the Zionists accepted a partition plan that gave Arabs close
>to 90% of Palestine, and internationalized Jerusalem.  The Arabs
>rejected that plan, and attacked Israel on the day it was
>re-established.  It hardly sounds like those Arabs were merely
>interested in preventing a "greater Israel."

Addressing the Zionist Executive, Ben-Gurion said, "after the formation of a 
large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish 
partition and expand to the whole of Palestine."

Also, on November 29, when the UN issued the partition plan, recommending the 
creation of a Jewish state in 56% of the country, an Arab state in 43%, and an 
internationalized Jerusalem zone, at the time, Jewish land holdings amounted 
to about *8%* of the total.  Arabs were right in refusing to be robbed of 
their land.

                                                         Best Ahmad

PS. In THE BIRTH OF ISRAEL: MYTH AND REALITY, Simha Flapan mentions also that
Zionists accepted the partition only as a tactic plan, to give themselves
a firm ground from which they can expand more later on.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.afghanistan
From: suresh@papaya.iss.nus.sg (Suresh Thennarangam - Research Scholar)
Subject: Arabic(??) Numerals: The Origin
Originator: suresh@papaya
Organization: Institute of Systems Science, NUS, Singapore
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:13:01 GMT

I have followed with some interest a recent discussion of the origin of the
Arabic numerals in this news-group(soc.culture.arabic).

The decimal number system, widely attributed in the West to be an invention
of the Arabs actually originated in India. Ancient Indian mathematicians
invented the concept of "zero" and the decimal number system which was 
probably carried to Arabia by Arab traders who have had trade links with 
India(Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka incl.) since a very long time ago.

Indian historians sincerely believe this and that the Arabic number system
is so called simply because the West learned of this number system from the
Arabs. 

/Suresh
Xref: sparky soc.culture.arabic:5082 soc.culture.asean:8272 soc.culture.bangladesh:6175 soc.culture.indian:37969 soc.culture.iranian:10233 soc.culture.turkish:11982 talk.politics.mideast:22459
From: jhardono@ucs.indiana.edu (JUMAHADI HARDONO)
Subject: Western Puppet or Western Regimes
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:32:29 GMT

	Everybody knows the western puppets in the middle east. Let me
list you those puppets :

	Egypt : Hosni Mubarak and his regime
	Jordan: King Hussein
	Turky : Sulaiman
	Iraq  : Saddam
	Saudi  : Fahd
	Kuwait : Emir
	Tunisia: ? Can you tell me...
	Bangladesh: ? Can you tell me...
	Pakistan ( half)

I believe that  these puppets will be toppled down by Mujahiddeen , the holy
fighters, insyaAllah...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso)
Subject: Re: Oct 1973: Yom Kippur War (To Husam)
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:23:26 GMT


)They are stealing the waters of Lebanon, were they also provoked by
)the Lebanese to steal their water?.


No.  By the PLO in the 80's in Lebanon and now the Iranians.  Missle
attacks on civilian towns are nothing to be proud of or ignored.  If
water is not proportioned fairly, I'm sure the surrounding states have
been more than welcome to come to Jerusalem and negotiate with Israel
for water.  1/3 of Israel's water comes from desalienization plants,
and I'm sure the real future of water problems is to increase the
technology of the surrounding arab countries to build desalienization
plants.  Israel would be more than happy to assist if they would ask.


...but of course they won't.


carasso

Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Israel Apartheid????
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 05:07:28 GMT

mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael Gschwind) writes:
#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
#
#   I also pointed out that giving special privileges to a certain
#   group of people is not racist. Compare this to what is happening

#The argument is weird - of course you could argue that 'racism' is
#discriminating against somebody, not helping somebody because of race
#- hmm - but why does the other group not qualify for this help?
#Because of its race - so after all it is racism!

I know it seems the same. I still claim it is not. If you have a
group of people that has been the target of persecution throughout
its history, culiminating in the murder of about a third of it, then
its fair that if that group of people has a country it would allow
unrestricted emmigration of its members into it. 

In order to determine if the law is racist you have to look at
its formulation, not to tie it to events in the mideast.

-Danny Keren.
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Bulbul)
Subject: Re: ARAB UNITY
Summary: Offence and defence
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:33:57 GMT

In <1992Nov16.170324.13292@eng.umd.edu> ziad@eng.umd.edu (Ziad K. Cheiban) writes:

" That would also include Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bosnia
" A number of ex-Soviet republics, etc...
" Is this the way to A R A B unity?

  It could be a way to a better thing, do you mind? Which is better to base
unity upon beliefs or upon race(ism)? And how about us (decent people) who 
don't give a damn about Arabism especially after its huge success in the
Gulf crisis? If you have a problem to wake up, you may use an alarm clock.

" The sad thing is that a lot of people will agree with the original poster.
" There does not seem to be an Arab indentity, when we want to look for the
" roots of Arab nationalism we always seem to go back to the golden age of 
" I S L A M. 

   We can, if you wish, go back to the golden days of Imiri Ilqais, Antarah,
Tarafah ibn Il'abd, Al'a'sha and others, why don't you do it?

" I don't believe there will be any kind of unity until the Arabs
" themselves decide whether they want to be in a nation for all Arabs
" or in a nation for all Moslems. If you choose the latter, don't forget
" the Chinese provinces that are Moslems. We have a lot in common with
" them and we certainly wouldn't mind getting in a war with China to get
" those people to join us. (Hey it's just a simple H-Bomb nothing to worry
" about.)

   And if we choose the former, we have to go through a lot of trouble solving
political problems, changing the map of the world, changing currencies, 
rearranging UN, lobying for getting a veto right, etc. It is just not worth it.

   I am sorry, I didn't have my usual sense of humour when I started this article,
now I realise, you were joking. So, ha ha ha ha!


** id.hak karkar, 'U^a tfaKar
                           --Shadia

** id.hak .gaNI    ^ish mit-haNI
   di Dunya ma biDomshi l.haD
From: oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: PALESTINIANS
Date: 16 Nov 92 12:07:57 GMT
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Before i start, i wonder if this is the same Roger David Carasso who has alrady
posted a plenty of trash to this (and several other) newsgroups from
rdc.netcom.com and under several other names :
Roger David Carasso,
Rachel Dafny Christy,
Mr Communist,
and several other aliases.
  If it's the case (and it seems to be, given the tone of his messages) i
suggest that all the posters to this group IGNORE him (you can learn more about
him if you suscribe to alt.fan.roger-david-carasso).

Roger Carasso (carasso@Turing.ORG) wrote:

: What are the differences between arabs and palestinians,
: other than that palestinians lived in palestian?
: I want to know if there are culture differences, language differences, etc.
: Why are they a people?
: 
  Well, what's your point exactly behind this question ?. And even if
Palsetinian weren't a "people" but rahter a subset of Arabs, does that
legitimize the occupation of Palestine by Israel ?, the confiscation and
expelling of most of the population who lived there ?. I hope you can put this
idea in your head : Palestinians EXIST, all the world call them Palestinians,
you like or not, It's a FACT. Israel grabbed continuously every inch possible
of land by force, and any peaceful agreement must be based on the recognition
of Palestinians' rights.

  Now, unlesss you post a clarification about you idenitity, i won't answer you
anymore.
: 
: roger
From: pmf$1349@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: RE:  ahmadiyya
Date: 22 Nov 92 18:25:23 -0600
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University