From: rj24@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Robert  Johnston)
Subject: Re: Challenge to Chris Lyman -- Get a real argument! (was Re: Greetings
Reply-To: rj24@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Robert  Johnston)
Organization: Columbia University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 06:17:19 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.020005.9981@ncsu.edu> dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
>In article <1993Jan7.195319.12715@pwcs.stpaul.gov> 
>chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
>>noonan@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Michael P Noonan) writes:
>>>chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
>
>>>> Imo, the evolution/creation debate is yet another facet of what seems to
>>>> be a cultural war between the radical and/or religious right and the
>>>> progressive and/or humanist left.  I am particularly struck by the
>>>> similarity of mindsets between creationists and anti-abortionists.
>
>>> Here it is once again assumed that all anti-abortionists are religious
>>> zealots.  I am an atheist, anti-creationist, and anti-abortionist.
>
>> My mistake.  I hadn't posted in two weeks (got rusty, you know), and so
>> neglected to insert the appropriate qualifiers.  
>
>In other words, you accidently let your true colors shine through.

I'm sure that doug has never in his life made a minor error.

>Chris Lyman, like so many other pro-choicers, can't seem to stop
>portraying pro-lifers as religious zealots, despite evidence from
>this newsgroup that many pro-lifers are opposed to abortion for secular 
>reasons.  

Wake up, doug! I have yet to hear a single arguement on the pro-life
position that is not religiously motivated. The only reason all human
life is viewed as sacred by some people is because of the christian
background to our society, so please don't cite primary respect for human 
life as your reason, unless you plan to logically support this first.

>If the religious stereotype were to crumble, Chris Lyman
>would actually have to start presenting solid arguments, instead of
>the shoddy arguments based upon stereotypes which we are often accustomed 
>to seeing from him, such as the following statement:
>

The "stereotype" won't crumble, because it is fact.

>> However, I invite you to
>> attend an anti-abortion demonstration so you can see for yourself
>> the religious content of the signs and the slogans.
>
>I challenge Chris Lyman to present a rational argument in support
>of abortion rights, if he is able to, instead of rationalizing 
>his position using a stereotype that no thinking person could
>mistake as a serious argument.
>

How about respect for the mother, or for the greater good of society.
There are many rational arguements along these lines, but until you
get rid of your outdated Christian premises, it is useless to
argue them with you.

>>> I understand your outrage.  Indeed, I feel much of it myself.  I
>>> think we must refrain from dismissing a certain viewpoint merely
>>> because idiots espouse it, however.  You will find that there are
>>> idiots in every cause.
>
>> Agreed, with reservations.  Wrt anti-abortionists, I see all too often
>> an unwillingness to incorporate facts presented in this forum into their
>> thinking.  Very much like creationists.  This kind of anti-intellectualism
>> does not serve the future of our Republic very well, imo.
>
>It is Chris Lyman who is unwilling to incorporate facts into his
>thinking.  He, and others like him, refuse to consider the fact
>that many pro-lifers are opposed to abortion for secular reasons.
>He must resort to stereotypes and appeals to anti-religious bigotry
>in order to support his position.  
>

It is Dougie who is unwillig to incorporate facts into his thinking.
It, and others like it, refuse to consider the fact that almost all
pro-lifers are opposed to abortion for religious reasons. It must 
resort to stereotypes and appeals to religious bigotry, as well as
fear of anti-religious bigotry, in order to support its position.

>
>>Chris Lyman
>
>
>Doug Holtsinger
>

They really need to tighten security at the ncsu genetics lab.

Robert Johnston



Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism