From: alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:44:59 GMT
Organization: (speaking only for myself from Austin, Texas)

In article <1gtgv0INN98f@agate.berkeley.edu> mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:
>alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss) writes:
>>eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (Piglet) writes:
>>>Now, I say that language works for us, not we for it.  It's time
>>>there was a neutral pronoun in English.  Along with a neutral
>>>reference to "man" in the sense of "mankind", and so on.  All
>>>such constructs as "poetess" "actress" "sculptress" "authoress"
>>>should be shot at dawn and burned in effigy.  Along with "Miss"
>>>and "Mrs.".
>
>Absolutely.  "When I get called a poetess, it just brings out the
>terroristress in me."  Somebody had better tell me who I'm quoting that
>from (and probably inaccurately to boot).

[laugh].  One thing I've noticed is that the use of "actress"
instead of just "actor" has been diminishing.  Progress, perhaps.
Somehow, "terroristress" just looks like "terror" and "stress" to me.


>>Then propose something, and start a campaign to get people to use
>>it.  Howzabout these:
>>
>>	woman		womyn
>>	his/her		just substitute the plural "their"
>>	him/her		herm
>>	He/She		Sheesh
>>	Edwin Newman	Edwin Newperson
>
>*chortle*  But we have a few already.  I've been a "their" user for a
>long time, but have recently switched to sie/hir.  I'm less keen on the
>kir-type constructs, just because of the feel: my preference is for the
>harder to pronounce, but less Germanic (no offence - it just jars).  In
>spoken stuff, I use they/their exclusively.  I'm kinda taken with
>"herm", though, given my penchant for androgeny. :-)

Hey, at least YOU got the humor :-)  Somehow, I just can't see
ol' Ed Newman as Ed Newperson, can you?  I have been using "they"
for at least a few years, and its comfortable. 


>>English (and most other languages) evolve in response to demand.
>>But, as marketing people know, demand can be created.  But not by
>>anger or politically-motivated means -- people respond much better
>>if the new "good" or "service" is attractive.  Figure out a way
>>to make the new language attractive to use (instead of a grim
>>faced moralistic necessity), and people will jump on it quickly.
>>For example, if its hip to use gender-neutral/feminist-sensitive
>>language ......
>
>Hey, I don't think I've ever agreed with someone who self-described as
>Fascist before ... :-)

I never said I was a fascist, did I?  Oh oh -- my Libertarian
Party membership seems to be lapsing!  Gasp!  


>  Sure, it has to be hip.  That's the focus of the
>debate about Madonna.  That's kinda why I love the way the opponents of
>dropping him/his sound so whiny and tight-assed when they leap to defend
>something that is far more robust and likely to survive than they are -
>English, as she is spoke.  These days it's not just unhip, it's plain,
>old-fashioned clueless to be so ignorant of gender bias.
>
>Mike

.... in certain circles.  Get outside of the cities, though,
and people kinda look at you funny when you forget your proper
pronouns :-)


>PS Alan, the HugFest may well be (OK, is) going on over in soc.bi, but I
>don't let it slip into the soc.motss crossposts a whole lot, given that
>the pro/con count over fluffies is 0 for 1, that I've seen.  You can
>have a subtle one while we're about it, though.
>-- 
>Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- g+ k+ s m- e? |    "Bloody nose and burning eyes
>      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and      |  Raised in laughter to the skies"
>          backrubber of devotion          |                 - Bruce Cockburn
>               --The end of confusion is the beginning of death--

Hmmmmm ... well, as a certified newsgroup hopper (tm), I've noticed
that this is about the only "space" where hugs are thrown about
with reckless abandon.  Although I'm reasonably straight, (maybe
a Kinsey 1.5, although in Basic Instinct I fantasized that *I* was
Sharon Stone :-)  Talk about gender-benders!), I am one of those bi-friendly
people who muffin around a little, feeding off the crumbs of
information in cyberspace.

Speaking of Sharon Stone, does anyone have any comments on herm?
Other than the notion that, "gee, I'd like to have her" (which
is so patently obvious as to be beyond discussion :-)

I thought that the character she played in Basic Instinct was
terrific - proving that even bi's can be psychotic killers!
(the sound you hear is your chain being pulled :-)
-- 
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