From: marcmil@microsoft.com (Marc Milanini)
Subject: Re: 'Milaninis' Think 'Arms Reductions' Is Cutting On Steroids.
Date: 11 Aug 92 02:04:21 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Keywords: Mutlu

In article <9208070121.A3415cr@anadolu.michigan.com> han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) writes:
>Brilliant logic.

Thanks a bunch.

>Is that how the mind of a 'milan-ini' works?

Yes.

>I have a feeling that you are largely ignorant of 'culture' and 'politics.'
>Politics is the catch-all word for the social and economic factors that
>combine to generate the environment we exist in. Of course, in the
>'milanini-land,' especially, politics is defined as what politicians
>do.

This is utter assertion without a hint of factual data to support it.
It is obvious that the compared levels of Japanese, Turkish and American
students have nothing to do in soc.culture.greek, soc.history or 
talk.politics.soviet.

>The everyday forces that shape our lives (politics) and our reactions
>to these forces (culture) are merely manifestations of the same thing. 

You can write whatever you want, it does not change what I wrote above.

>Again, you have been arguing with yourself; I never said a word about
>the rate of illiteracy in Europe. The 'real reasons' of this general
>failure are anybody's guess and varies from one 'expert' to another.

The discussion was about the compared levels of literacy in Greece,
the USA and Turkey. And you replied with an argument about the so-called
superiority of the Turkish teaching. You implied that, because the
Turkish schools are more strict, the Turkish students are better.
I did not see any connection (and still do not see any) between the
level of students and the rate of literacy, so I asked you to provide
me with evidence that, all other things being equal, a more strict
teaching is better than a relaxed one.

>Nope. It was not Turkiye we were talking about. Your question was:
>
>'Can you provide evidence that a strict teaching is more efficient
> than a pedagogic, relaxed one ?'
>
>And I did.

No, this survey proves that the Japanese teaching, which happens to
be more strict than the American one, is better at making students
use wisely their time. As I said, you have to examin all parameters,
not only the strictness, that could cause such a difference.

>By the way, similar differences also exist in Turkiye's favor between
>Turkish and American schools at the junior and high school levels,
>although this might be complete news to some Americans and 'milaninis.' 

Oh yeah ? And you have evidence of that ? Unless Japan is now part
of Turkey, this remains to be seen.

>>I remember another survey that concluded that the Japanese students
>>were better because they collaborated more with each other and with
>>their teachers (in short, the best students were helping the others,
>>and it was easier to talk to teachers than in other universities).
>
>This is utter assertion, without even a hint of factual data to confirm
>it. Read the survey results.

I am sorry, but those two surveys are not uncompatible. One concludes
that the Japanese students are better at using their time, the other
that there is more cooperation in Japanese universities than in 
American universities. 

>>You should also know that it is the Japanese schools that are
>>very strict, not the Japanese universities, in which the atmosphere
>>is more relaxed.
>
>As usual, you have been arguing with yourself. For those who survive 
>the Turkish high school education, American system is a song and a
>breeze. 

Non-sequitur.

>>>[Turkey's progress deleted]
>
>May I ask why?

I know that the notion of saving bandwidth is completely meaningless
for you, and that you don't read the alert message that tells you
to trim down any quotation when you follow-up, so I will leave that
on the side.

You know, on the contrary to what you and Goebbels think, people need
to read only once to understand. After a while, reading several
times the same quote, as true as it may be, becomes boring and can
only harm the purpose of the initial message.

>Oman. Did you ever read newspaper at all? Would the 'European math 
>competition' and 'Turkish kids' ring a bell? Also, Turkish students, 
>for example, who transfer to an American high school and spend a year 
>here with AFS program never fail to pass their classes with flying
>colors for one simple reason. Well, never mind; like conversing with 
>a brick wall.

The Turkish students that come to the USA are the best, the cream of
the cream, the elite, got it ? You still have to explain why
the level of illiteracy is higher in Turkey than in Greece. Once again,
there is no relation between the level of the best students of one
country, and the average educational level of that country. 

The efficiency of teaching has to be kept on a large amount of time
to ensure lasting results. What we are looking at now can be broken 
tomorrow. What I mean is that a very good educational system (like
the one that Turkey has now. I really believe that it is good, I
simply object to its being better than European or American ones)
has effects on the general population only years after it is put
together. Also, illiterate people tend to have known how to read,
but have simply forgotten over the years. You have to be sure that
people are still using their skills after their school-time is
finished.

>No wonder you spout myths as evidence.

When, where, how ? You apparently think that you can make bigoted
remarks in public and not be expected to account for them.

>Hasan B-) Mutlu

-- 
=---K8>>@@@@@@@@ Marc Milanini @@@@ marcmil@microsoft.com @@@@%%
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:8858 talk.politics.mideast:18569 talk.politics.soviet:6971 soc.culture.greek:7502 soc.culture.europe:7291 soc.history:7313