From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh 'K' Hopkins)
Subject: Re: White skin-how did it develope?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:04:43 GMT

lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun) writes:

[Responding to the fact that his allegations of evolution promoting racism
 are untrue]   
>There are examples of dictators in powerful countries who decide
>that `their' race is the super race, and decide to subdue other
>races in their own and neighbouring countries - eg Europe in the
>middle of this century. They justify their atrocities by quoting
>the concept of `survival of the fittest' and genetic selection

Are you ignoring, or have you never heard, "Kill them all, God will know his
own" which was uttered in a European religious war that vastly predates Darwin?
Toss in the crusades, the Inquisition, the KKK, the two thousand years of 
Jewish persecution which predate the understanding of evolution and I think we
can safely say that evolution is not nearly as good at promoting hatred as a
religion which relies on a "chosen people."  Religion has caused more deaths
that evolution, but that isn't a valid way of judging it's validity.

>Accepting the evolutionary paradigm does strip humans of their
>sense of purpose, sometimes their worth and dignity. Evolution
>says that we are just a walking and breeding bag of chemicals
>which arose by pure chance. We are no different from animals

Wrong.  Evolution and science do _not_ "strip humans of their dignity."  I 
would point to people such as Carl Sagan, or myself and many others, who look 
at the incredible complexity of the human brain and are very impressed and 
proud.  I would also submit that, as above, how people react to something does
not affect its validity.  It was quite a shock to learn that Earth is not the
center of the universe, but would you suggest that that makes it false?

>Apartheid, racism, bullying etc are man-made evils. The
>rejection of God and man's decision not to obey God's
>will are the major contributors to this sorry state of
>the world. Where is `love your neighbour' in the
>evolutionary philosophy? 

	It isn't in there, but _again_ no matter how much it may distress you,
evolution is still a fact.  I firmly believe that one can disavow religion 
without avoiding morals.  I know both atheists and believers who are incredibly
wonderfull people.  I have to confess that the most selfish, bigoted, and 
ignoble person I've ever known was a Christian.

>We have already established that
>evolution has no scientific basis and is merely a
>system of belief. A recent post by someone on the book
>`In the beginning' confirms this.

BUZZZT!  I'm sorry, that's incorrect.  That has not been established.  If you'd
care to explain why you think evolution has no basis in fact, please do so.

>How strange. I thought evolutionists reckoned that all humans alive
>today are descended from a pair of ape-men from the distant past.

No, actually rational people (not meant as a insult, just to distinguish from
people who go on faith) believe there were ape-women involved too.

>Creationists believe all humans today are descended from Adam and
>Eve. Are the two approaches so different that you can brand one as
>impossible?

Yes, they are quite different.  Evolution holds that a small population of
proto-humans evolved slowly into what we are today.  Creationism supposes that
two modern humans materialized in a garden and in almost no time at all had
born enough kids around the globe to create the cities and ruins we know  were
present.

>Again this confirms that evolutionism is based on
>belief.

Sigh.  Why do we even bother?

>Ie some top notch evolutionist makes a speculation, and
>others believe. Take the collection of speculations and just-so
>stories that I predicted would come in response to the original
>question that started this thread. Every budding evolutinist can
>come up with his own theory. None of these can be tested let alone
>proven.

More sighs.  Would you please learn just a _little_ bit about the basic 
principles of the scientific method before you tell us how science works?
what you've discribed above is a college bull session, not science.


>Lionel Tun   (lionel@cs.city.ac.uk)
>Vision Group, City University, London, EC1V 0HB. 071-477 8000 x 3889
-- 
Josh Hopkins                    Friends don't let friends derive drunk
		     j-hopkins@uiuc.edu