From: potter@csusac.ecs.csus.edu (Carl Kolchak)
Subject:  big mouth!  (was:  Jay Score )
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Summary:  use spoiler warnings next time!
Keywords: robots, androids, zoromes, humanoids, grodnirbs
Organization: INS, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 07:31:25 GMT

Mark Dakins complained, thusly:

> From: mcd@ithaca.Eng.Sandy.Novell.COM (Mark Dakins)
> Subject: Jay Score
> Keywords: robots, androids, zoromes, humanoids, grodnirbs
> Organization: Novell, Inc.
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:17:11 GMT
> 
> In <1992Aug19.064458.9681@csusac.csus.edu> potter@csusac.ecs.csus.edu
>   (Carl Kolchak) writes:
> >
> >  but my favorite robot-like character in all of SF is Eric
> >  Frank Russell's "Jay Score," who was obviously a primary model
> >  for the Great Bird's "Spock."
> 
> Ahhhh, "... robot-like ..."?  Perhaps I have misinterpreted the
> above sentence but, are you aware the Jay Score (aka J-20) IS a
> robot?  If not, I suggest you re-read this excellent story keeping
> in mind EFR's penchant for writing stories with a twist.
> BTW I do not think I agree that Jay was a model for Spock.  After
> all, Jay is a robot; you would expect him to act that way.  You just
> were not supposed to figure out why he was acting that way til the end
> of the story.  Spock, on the otherhand, was modeled after the
> super-intelligent, unemotional, alien superhuman, an SF paradigm from
> "way back."  Do you have some specific reason for thinking that Spock
> was modeled after Jay Score?

Yes, melad, I'm more than somewhat aware of J.20's actual composition;
I first read the story some four decades ago, and have re-read it many
times since.

The *reason* for my choice of words has to do with an arcane concept
first pioneered by the Ancient Chinese.  It's called the "spoiler." 
Since ancient Chinese storytellers made their living by telling their
stories in public, the endings of the stories were protected by law
and custom.  People who broadcast story endings were, in many 
provinces, summarily executed.

   I support this system.   Since the identification of Jay Score as
a robot is supposed to be the "snapper" at the end of the story (even
as dated and predictable as the story might be by modern standards!)
I felt it incumbent on me *NOT* to broadcast the ending zinger, in
case some rec.arts.sf.writteners hadn't read the story, and might
encounter it some day.    Of course, you've ruined the story for 
them now..... 
(Not really.  Any SF fen who haven't read Eric Frank Russell's 
 "MEN, MARTIANS, AND MACHINES" really ought to.  It's a part of
 SF history, and still a good read.)
 
   As for a specific reason on the Spock-character attribution, 
Roddenberry discussed his favorite yarns in SF many times, and 
in one of his convention speeches he traced literary antecedents 
of his characters and series format.   He specifically mentioned
Horatio Hornblower in relation to Kirk,  Van Vogt's "VOYAGE OF 
THE SPACE BEAGLE" in relation to ship and the mission, and he spoke
of Frankenstein, Pinocchio, and Jay Score in relation to Spock.
(The "Pinocchio" correlation is obviously much stronger for 
  Questor and Data, since they have the inverse-Spock motivation;
  they have no emotions and want them.)

   During the question-and-answer session that followed,
someone elicited the information that G.R. had enjoyed Lester 
Del Rey's "HELEN O'LOY" quite a lot, and was still considering 
buying the story for modification into an S.T. script.  Obviously,
this never happened, although he did manage to get emotional 
android/robots into both TOS and TNG.

   Oh, lastly, you'll find that the "Mesmericans" in E.F. Russell's
third or fourth story in "MEN, MARTIANS, AND MACHINES," are 
nearly carbon copies of the illusionists who were a threat 
to Tweel's race in Stanley G. Weinbaum's "A MARTIAN ODYSSEY."
(First appearance sometime in the summer of '34, I think.)
Russell liked them so much that he wrote to Weinbaum, asking 
permission to use the Martian illusion-casting villains in a
story of his own, completely unaware that Weinbaum had been
dead for nearly a decade.   Margaret Weinbaum answered EFR's 
letter, giving EFR carte blanche for use of the illusion-
casting slimy balls of rope.... 
 
   EFR transplanted them to an extrasolar planet, and made
them technically intelligent, and I'll always wonder whether 
Roddenberry was thinking of their abilities when he cooked up
the Talosians in the first ST pilot that got accepted.

   You have to remember that Roddenberry loved SF, and had 
been reading it for a LONG time; it's only natural that some
of his favorite characters and ideas made it into the series.
   Incidentally, if you're going to *now* belabor me with 
the information that Spock was an emotional, excitable person
in the pilot, and that the "spock personality" belonged to
"Number One," the M. Leigh Hudec/Majel Barrett character, 
yes, yes, I'm aware of that.  I can only report what I heard, 
along with all the rest of the audience, when Roddenberry 
said, "The personality of Spock owes a great deal to one 
of my favorite characters, a robot named Jay Score."


-- 
=======================================================================
||  "C" gains much of its vaunted efficiency by employing a very     ||
||  powerful pre-processor, normally referred to as a "programmer."  ||
||  rem: "Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."       ||