HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: habura@vccnw02.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Vert/Sinople (was Re: Sp. heraldry & Columbus)
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 12:59:24 GMT

A further note on the etymology of "gules": the OED suggests a derivation from
"gulue", the throat of a beast (which is red). We get our word "gullet" from
this word. 

Both Or and Argent have simple etymologies; they are from Latin aurum and 
argentum, respectively. (I wonder if the lack of confusion about the metals
has to do with their easy reference points. What color is Or? It's the color 
of gold; simple.)

Andrea Habura

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: legal status of heraldry in France
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:47:03 GMT

>For marquis, Webster's gives "marquess", "marquis", and "marquisate" as the
>English forms, in that order.  The feminine is "marchioness", or sometimes
>"marquise".  (The German equivalant is called in English "margrave", the
>feminine being "margravine".)

Noted.  The etymology is the same, "marches" as limits of a kingdom. 
The margrave, or marquis, was in charge of defending them.

>
>So what's a "vidame"?  Is it related to "dame"?

Vidame comes from "vice dominus", vice-lord, unrelated to dame.
The vidame of a bishopric or abbey was in charge of defending
the temporal possessions of that ecclesiastical entity. The kings
of France were vidames of Saint-Denis, the Royal basilica where
they were buried.  There was a vidame of Chartres, Amiens, etc.
It implies no sovereignty or power over the city where the 
abbey is located, or the bishopric seated. As I said, it's 
pretty rare.

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@siena.watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Heraldic terms
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 19:14:58 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

> I have studied a little bit of heraldry in the past, but it was not
> extensive.  I am interested in learning more about it (which is why I am
> subscribed to this group), but I would like a brief list of definitions
> of heraldic terms.  Could someone either e-mail some to me, or post it on
> the net.

You may not realize what you are asking: There are thousands of terms in
modern English blazonry alone.  The best way to learn the basics of
heraldry is to read an introductory book on the subject.  Good choices are:

Julian Franklyn, "Shield and Crest" (London: MacGibbon and Kee, 1960).
    
A. C. Fox-Davies, "A Complete Guide to Heraldry" (New York: Bonanza Books,
1978).

There are many others; I found the first to the be the easiest to read when
I started out in heraldry, and the second is very easy to find in book
stores and libraries.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: wade@nb.rockwell.com (Wade Guthrie)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Heraldic terms
Date: 9 Oct 92 00:34:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: nb.1992Oct9.003446.27078
Organization: Rockwell International


Earlier, someone said that writing a computer program to do description->picture
or human discription->heraldric (is this called 'blazonry'?) would be impossible.
Why is that?  Would it be possible if, say, one limited it to English heraldry
and, say, descriptions after Elizabeth I?

Inquiring minds want to know.  Thanks.

Wade
wade@nb.rockwell.com
From: bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Romille's Device
Date: 15 Oct 92 05:08:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.1992Oct15.050834.11487
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Noble Heralds!

I looked up "panther" in Woodwards and it sound to me that a "panther proper"
can have spots of many colours.  Thus, there should only be 3 tinctures
in the proposed device and not some large number like 5 which was
claimed in an eariler posting.  One for the field, one for the doo hicky
and one for the panther.

						Your Humble Servant
						Solveig Throndardottir
						Totally Ignorant
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Romille's Device
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:51:18 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

I don't recall seeing your question on the heraldic mailing list; it may
not have gotten through.  The question is more suited to the mailing list,
since it deals exclusively with SCA heraldic rules.  I will answr by
private mail, with a copy to the mailing list. 

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Romille's Device
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 04:06:53 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.051119.4811@newsroom.utas.edu.au> u883161@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Alex Tewes) writes:
>
>My Good Lady Wife (Romille de Mont Blanc) submitted a device quite some time ago, the blazon of which was:
>
>" Sable,  A pantheon of the rainbow Argent, and on a tierce of the Second,  three quills Sable".
>

Why doesn't your wife just use "a heraldic panther argent, spotted of
many colors". A "pantheon of the rainbow" is confusing. ("What does that
mean? I dunno, a bunch of rainbow gods maybe?") If its documentable in
a pre-1600 European culture, it might be acceptable to the SCA.
	Lose the teirce. (But you knew that already :)) Try to keep the
device as simple and "period looking as possible", lest you fall afoul
of the "two weirdnesses" guideline. By strict definition the device is
"too complex" with any charge but the panther on the device (since there
is 1 charge, 5 colors and 1 metal it equals 7 different things, more
than 7 colors &/or charges is "too complex")
       ^^^^^
       tinctures! and the is 7 or more. Damned editor....
	If your wife must still have the quills, put them on a chief so
they count as tertiary charges, not secondary charges. Better yet,
forget them. If that galls her, have he arrange the quills in something
other than the standard 2 & 1 arrangement. Or, position them in a
"non-default" position (fesswise, bendwise). Or, change the number of
the quills to something that isn't a multiple of 2 or 3 (5,7)
	If she is a calligrapher there are a number of very good, less
used, charges appropriate to scribes. Ink pots, paint brushes, etc.
never get used as charges.                     
	Finally, provide a good drawing of it and document the use of
the unusual charge. 
	With luck that ought to get the device through.

Good Luck

Tom/Lothar \|/
            0
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: u883161@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Alex Tewes)
Subject: Romille's Device
Organization: University of Tasmania
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 05:11:19 GMT

The following is a copy of a submission to the Heralds List.  

Noble Heralds;

My Good Lady Wife (Romille de Mont Blanc) submitted a device quite some time ago, the blazon of which was:

" Sable,  A pantheon of the rainbow Argent, and on a tierce of the Second,  three quills Sable".

Just how long ago this was is shown by the fact that the charged tierce was not a problem.  The point of contention proved to be the "pantheon of the rainbow"  This blazon was meant to show that the stars on the monster were meant to be each of different colours, using all the colours of the rainbow.  Documentation was provided to show that on of the British Kings (Henry the nth, I forget exactly which) had a badge showing a multicoloured spotted panther, blazoned as "of many colours".  The device was boun





ced, and an appeal launched.  The matter has festered thus ever since.

I seek advice on what your opinions are regarding this charge, and on possible ways of "getting away with it" as my wife has set her heart on this beastie.

I await your wisdom

Martin de Mont Blanc
Shire of Ynys Fawr / Lochac / West               (That's Tasmania,  Australia)

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley)
Subject: Re: legal status of heraldry in France
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1992 14:47:12 GMT
Organization: Evolving Systems, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois) writes:
: >So what's a "vidame"?  Is it related to "dame"?
: Vidame comes from "vice dominus", vice-lord, unrelated to dame.

No -- "dame" is directly from Latin "domina", a lady, the feminine
of "dominus"; hardly unrelated.  So French "madame", Italian
"madonna", English "milady" are all equivalent.  The Spanish
honorific "don~a" ("don" for a man) is the same word.
-- 
                                   -- John Woolley
"Good pitching will always beat good hitting, and vice versa." -- Casey Stengel
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Ecclesiastical Heraldry
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 04:10:17 GMT

Does anybody know anything about ecclesiastical heraldry. 

What books are commonly available on the subject?

What denominations use(d) ecclesiastical heraldry?

How was it regulated?

What were commonly used charges?

How did it differ from the secular heraldry of the same country?

How and when did it begin?


When did it end?


Thanks in advance,

Tom/Lothar \|/
            0

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: Vert/Sinople (was Re: Sp. heraldry & Columbus)
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:42:52 GMT

In article <_7tz22=@rpi.edu> habura@vccnw02.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>A further note on the etymology of "gules": the OED suggests a derivation from
>"gulue", the throat of a beast (which is red). We get our word "gullet" from
>this word. 

In French, Gules="gueules" which looks like the plural of "gueule", 
an animal's mouth (and, in impolite conversation, that of a human
who is being advised to close it).  I find the derivation a bit
implausible, though.

>
>Both Or and Argent have simple etymologies; they are from Latin aurum and 
>argentum, respectively. (I wonder if the lack of confusion about the metals
>has to do with their easy reference points. What color is Or? It's the color 
>of gold; simple.)
>

Probably: it's actually an interesting linguistic problem to translate 
shades of color from ancient languages (what's the color of Athena's
eyes? Still a point of debate). Colors, which we might think as fairly
stable, are seen through a cultural prism (Inuits have 20 words for
white, none for green, etc).

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: polowin@chem.queensu.ca (Joel Polowin)
Subject: Text file search utility (e.g. for SCA armorial)
Organization: Dept. of Chemistry, Queen's University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:32:39 GMT

I found a minor error in the earlier version of my search utility: it
didn't correctly warn of too-long input lines being truncated.  I've
received all of the other error messages at appropriate times, so I
HOPE that there are no more problems.  The earlier version works OK
in general, and there are no too-long entries in the S.C.A. file, but
people may wish to get the clean version of 'filter', v.1.4.

For any who might have missed the earlier announcement (there were 
server problems last week) but still might be interested:
I've written a multiple-term text search utility.  It's functionally
similar to 'fgrep' but allows simultaneous checking for up to fifteen
search terms -- each independently to be present/absent, and case 
sensitive/insensitive; each can be 'or'-linked to preceding term(s).
I originally wrote it for searching the Society for Creative Anachronism's
file of heraldic devices -- such searching involves applying a lot of
separate conditions -- but have found it useful for a variety of other
tasks as well.  I'm making it freely available for public use.

'filter' is available in two forms for anonymous ftp from ftp.ccs.queensu.ca
(130.15.126.54), in pub/qu-pub/.  'filter14.c.Z' is the compressed
source code for version 1.4; ARJ-compressed 'filter14.arj' contains
the source code and the DOS executable compiled with Borland's Turbo C++.
The source is pretty plain C and should work with any ANSI-standard C
at the very least.  For those on Fidonet, 'filter14.zip' can be F'REQed
from the Typecast BBS, 1:249/107.

On my PC at home (40MHz 386dx), 'filter' chews through the 1.9MB S.C.A.
armorial file (available from meadow.stanford.edu, rainbow.cse.nau.edu, 
and bransle.ucs.mun.edu), searching for entries containing the strings
"aardvark", "winged pig", or "wombat", and which are not badges, in
about 37 seconds.  It's made armorial-searching a LOT faster and easier.
And because it reads a file line by line (or reads from standard input)
there are no size limitations other than the 300-character line length
limit (trivially changed with a #DEFINE in the source code).

Documentation is internal: any error in syntax causes 'filter' to print
a brief error message and a concise description of proper syntax plus
examples.

Joel Polowin
polowin@silicon.chem.queensu.ca, polowin@chem.queensu.ca,
 polowinj@qucdn.queensu.ca
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: legal status of heraldry in France
Organization: Brown University Math Department
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:55:39 GMT

Thanks!  That's very interesting.  Minor vocabulary clearing-up:


|> - duc (duke)
|> - marquis (marchioness ?)
|> - comte (count)
|> - vicomte (viscount)
|> - baron (baron)
|> - vidame [a rare title]
|> - chevalier (knight)
|> - ecuyer (esquire)

For marquis, Webster's gives "marquess", "marquis", and "marquisate" as the
English forms, in that order.  The feminine is "marchioness", or sometimes
"marquise".  (The German equivalant is called in English "margrave", the
feminine being "margravine".)

So what's a "vidame"?  Is it related to "dame"?


Joshua Brandon	    Brown Math Department	  brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu
   "It's free association time here at Incoherent Central!"
YAZ/socrates
From: berry@athos.pei.com (Berry Kercheval)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Sp. heraldry & Columbus
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:53:38 GMT
	<1992Oct06.171718.30708@watson.ibm.com>
	<1992Oct6.183541.12853@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
Reply-To: berry@pei.com
Organization: Protocol Engines, Inc., Mt. View, California


Velde> In article <1992Oct06.171718.30708@watson.ibm.com> mittle@siena.watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>> But what is "sinople"?  It seems to be translating the Spanish "verde",
>> which sounds like it ought to be green....
>
>Yup.  "Sinople" is standard French blazonry for "green".  It is rarely used
>in modern English blazonry, but shows up occasionally in medieval blazonry
>in place of "vert".

Hmmm.  I would be curious to know the etymology of "sinople".

Does anyone but me think it (mildly) amusing that the while the
English heraldic term for green is the French word "vert" (doubtless
brought by the Normans) the French heraldic term for green is
(apparently) from still another language?

  --berry

--
Berry Kercheval :: berry@pei.com :: Protocol Engines, Inc.  Mt. View, CA
"Car pool fatigue: it's like shell shock, but you don't get any VA benefits.
They just fill your gas tank and send you back to the front."
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: zmueller@utkvx2.utk.edu (Wilhelm Mueller)
Subject: Heraldic terms
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:05:00 GMT

Hello,

I have studied a little bit of heraldry in the past, but it was not extensive. 
I am interested in learning more about it (which is why I am subscribed to this
group), but I would like a brief list of definitions of heraldic terms.  Could
someone either e-mail some to me, or post it on the net.

	Thank you, Wilhelm Mueller
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Vert/Sinople (was Re: Sp. heraldry & Columbus)
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:37:40 GMT

In article <BERRY.92Oct6175338@athos.pei.com> berry@pei.com writes:
>
>Velde> In article <1992Oct06.171718.30708@watson.ibm.com> mittle@siena.watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>>> But what is "sinople"?  It seems to be translating the Spanish "verde",
>>> which sounds like it ought to be green....
>>
>>Yup.  "Sinople" is standard French blazonry for "green".  It is rarely used
>>in modern English blazonry, but shows up occasionally in medieval blazonry
>>in place of "vert".
>
>Hmmm.  I would be curious to know the etymology of "sinople".
>

According to M. Pastoureau (Traite d'Heraldique, 1979), the word "sinople"
comes from the latin "sinopis", which means... red. As a matter of fact
the word "sinopia" is in Webster's, meaning a brownish red. It comes from
Sinope, a city in Asia Minor known for the color of the earth used in
painting (the same way Sienna is nowadays synonymous with a certain 
color). 

The color red in French heraldry was called "gueules", "rouge", "vermeil" 
or "sinople" in the 13th century. It seems that sinople replaced "vert"
in French heraldry in the second half of the 14th century, possibly
to avoid confusion with "vair" (cf. Cinderella). Obviously English
usage had settled on Vert before that change was made in France.

According to Pastoureau, BTW, only Azure has an undisputed etymology. 
Gules is thought to come from the Persian "gul"=rose, but there is no
proof. Sable, which in French replaced "noir" as heraldic color in
the second half of 13th c., would come from the Slavic "sobol", the
black fur of an animal (called sable in English,  I think): but some
people dispute that as well.  As for purpure, is seems that prior to
the 16th century the color was grey (treatises described it as a mix
of the other 4 colors in equal proportion), and only with the 
Renaissance, when the etymology was rediscovered, did purpure become
purple. In medieval French, "porpre" was a kind of fabric, and 
"porpre bise" was an inferior quality. The color "bis" or "bise", 
meaning grey, is used in literary texts of the 13th c in blazons,
until it is displaced by "porpre" or "pourpre". 

>Does anyone but me think it (mildly) amusing that the while the
>English heraldic term for green is the French word "vert" (doubtless
>brought by the Normans) the French heraldic term for green is
>(apparently) from still another language?
>
>  --berry
>

The British drive on the other side of the road, their standard time is 1 hour
off the continent, their fawcetts turn the other way, and, as the French
joke goes, they use names of defeats for their public places (Waterloo, 
Trafalgar). So what do you expect?
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: paul@panix.com (Paul Gatker)
Subject: Old Running Books for Sale
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:08:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

I am selling the following running related books:



Beyond Jogging by Mike Spino; copyright 1976 by Celestial Arts

	111 pages including bibliography     $5.95

							



Exercises for Runners by Runner's World 1976 by World Publications

	78 pps                                                        

							$6.95





New Views of Speed Training 1971 by World Publications: $6.95

CONTENTS

CHAPTER #I - FACTS ABOUT FAST TRAINING

The Need for Speed

Knowing the Limits

Train Without Pain (by George Sheehan)

CHAPTER 2 - ANALYSIS FROM THE EXPERTS

Going Lydiard's Way (by Arthur Lydiard)

Hints from Higdon (by Hal Higdon)

Speeding with Scobey (by Bill Scobey)

CHAPTER 3 - ROUTES TO FASTER RACING

Read Before You Speed

Race-Type Speed

Fartlek-Type Speed

Interval-Type Speed

INDEX



The Self-Made Olympian by Ron Daws 1977 by World Publishing

	157pps                                $10.00

						


Price does not include postage or cod fees. All books are used but in

very good condition. E-mail for any further info.




-- 
*******************************************************************
paul@panix.com                                    COMPULITE GRAPHICS
Brooklyn NY usa                                Design & Consultation
********************************************************************
From: karl@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Karl Watanabe)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: How to stay loose
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:45:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA

In rec.running, kennedy@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Mike Kennedy) writes:

> 	Hi,
>      I have a question concerning 'staying loose' while running. A year or
>    so ago I attended a running clinic where they talked about keeping the
>    upper body loose, ( do not make a fist, let your arms hang loosely by 
>    your side, etc). When I do this or at least try to do this, I find I
>    get side stitches and/or chest stitches and my shoulders are sore after
>    I finish my run. (2.5-3.5 miles x 3 days)

Yeah, I head this also so I tried it.  I couldn't stand it.  In addition,
I watched those good runners and they run with their arms held high.
Someone told me that was to keep from bumping into other runners.  It
seemed to make sense, but it seems to take a lot of energy holding those
arms up like that.

I run with my car keys, so one of hands is always in a fist and I don't
mind at all.

Karl Watanabe
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: debi@scrp.Stanford.EDU (Debi Hooke)
Subject: Dallas Marathon
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 22:20:10 GMT

As the title suggests, I am interested in getting information
about the Dallas Marathon.  I remember that it was discussed
here a few weeks ago and I am hoping someone from that area
will be able to tell me who to contact for an entry.  I also
remember hearing that it is one of the best marathons.  If I
remember correctly it was scheduled for December 6.

Any information would be helpful and much appreciated by e-mail
or posting.

Thanks

Debi

Xref: sparky rec.running:2815 rec.bicycles:23177 rec.sport.triathlon:1301
From: tad10@ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Dickinson)
Newsgroups: rec.running,rec.bicycles,rec.sport.triathlon
Subject: Re: Need: heart rate monitor book
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:00:43 GMT
Reply-To: tad10@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Dickinson)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


The title is "Training, Lactate and Heart Rate" by Peter Jannsen
You won't find it in bookstores because it is published in
Finland.  Call Colorado Cyclist (800.688.8600) and order it for
$19.95 + s/h.  It is a great book and well worth the cost.

Terry Dickinson  tad10@ccc.amdahl.com

.....The worst run I've ever had was terrific....
From: mullanej@ul.ie
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Galloway's shedules - structure of "form" workouts
Date: 9 Oct 92 10:02:52 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

I have recently obtained a copy of "Galloways Book on Running"
(not easy to get on this side of the world) and I like his ideas on
lower mileage training. However, I am not clear on the structure he 
intends for "form" workouts. For instance in his 38 minute 10k schedule
these sessions occur on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the numbers 8-10 are
indicated. I assume that these refer to the number of repeats of the 
form accelerations and not to total miles run, but if so what should the
total mileage be on those days? Does it matter? In the text of the book
Galloway merely says that these accelerations can be incorporated into
your normal run.

Any advice or opinions would be appreciated.

John.