From: middleto@poincare.ucsd.edu (Tom Middleton ; System Manager)
Newsgroups: rec.nude
Subject: Re: nudity & sex
Date: 19 Dec 1992 06:39:36 GMT
Organization: Institute for NonLinear Science, UCSD
NNTP-Posting-Host: poincare.ucsd.edu


The following is from someone who wishes to remain anonymous.  These
opinions are not mine and responses should be posted to rec.nude.
Please do NOT email responses to me unless you want them posted for you.

------------ Begin Anonymous Letter ---------------------------------

For starters, I agree with you entirely.  I better elaborate, though,
or this will not be much of a post!  First, I would like to make the 
matter more precise by stating that the problem is not "nudity = sex" 
as much as it is "nudity => sex"  (the arrow means "implies").  
i.e., "whenever there is nudity (among adults) there is or will be 
some form of sex."  Given our society's views of sex, it is clear that 
such a proposition is harmful to those who wish to enjoy nude 
recreation.

The real problem is that, for MOST people in the U.S. (and maybe 
elsewhere in North America -- I don't know), adults undress in front 
of other (non-spousal) adults ONLY for sexual activity.  We all 
undress to take showers, but most of us do so alone.  So, for most 
people, the implication "nudity => sex" is completely true!  The 
problem is that most of these people seem to assume that, since it is 
true for them and for most people they know, that it is and must be 
true for everyone.  This is the key fallacy.

Nudists certainly do not engage in sex 24 hours a day!  It's physically
impossible.  One problem, though, is that, in the U.S. (and probably 
Canada) you have to "go out of your way" to be nude in public.  In 
Europe, it is so common that no one thinks anything of it.  Here, you 
have to make a special trip, often to an out of the way place.  The 
question posed by many people is,
 
"What sort of person would go out of their way to be undressed in 
front of other people, when they can, with much more ease, enjoy the 
same activities while dressed (e.g., beach-going, etc.)?"

I have been asked this question a few times.  The answer is simple, yet
it eludes many people who have simply never tried CO recreation:  

   You cannot enjoy the same activities while dressed, at least not to
   the same extent. 

Almost everyone who has tried CO recreation will attest to this.

Also, the argument that people are trying to look sexier (in CO 
recreation) is both untenable and ridiculous.  We are simply trying to
look like OURSELVES.  Face it, as Fred Chapman sometimes writes, we are
naked beneath our clothes.  The people trying to look sexier are the ones
who go out of their way to purchase that strategically-designed swimsuit
that will attract attention for sure.  On a CO beach, you actually blend
in completely while nude.

One final comment.  I agree with Tom that trying to get society to 
become more accepting of sex in general is not as likely to work 
(right now) as simply disproving "nudity => sex".  In fact, it may cause 
some harm.  When I read some of the (mostly tongue-in-cheek) articles 
where some people essentially said, "hey, everything is sexual, even nude 
recreation, but so what -- what's wrong with sex?  It's natural and it's 
great!" I became a bit concerned that some people would go "aha!  So you 
people ARE just trying to make our society more sexually loose...  JUST AS 
WE SUSPECTED."

Please be aware of the danger that such comments on sex (coming from 
this newsgroup) can cause (to those of us trying to get CO recreation
more widely accepted, even in places where sex is still "taboo".)  People
on this newsgroup tend to have a much more realistic (and healthy, I
believe) view of sex and its place in our lives, so we know what you mean
when you say "there's nothing wrong with sex -- why is everyone so hung
up on it?", but someone not so "sexually enlightened" will simply take
statements along these lines as "proof" that the nude lifestyle is a
promotion of sex, and the nudity => sex implication will be further
reinforced.

Don (a pseudonym)

P.S.  I want to know what you all think, and I will reply personally (with
      non-anonymous mail).  I miss being part of this group and do want to
      discuss this issue with others.  Thank you.

----------------------- End Letter ---------------------------------

-- 
===============================================================================
Thomas Earl Middleton
middleto@poincare.ucsd.edu			computers = sex
aka Happy Bare