HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: devin@frodo.Colorado.EDU (No one in particular)
Subject: Re: Hating one's body, was Re: Me? Clueless? Naaah :)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 18:22:43 GMT

Russ Williams (russw@cs.utexas.edu) wrote:
: In article <450352@sundown.mil.wi.us> wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us (Wendy) writes:
: >Being in a male body is horrible. I hate it!!!! Why did this mistake
: >happen? I dunno! I've been asking myself those questions for years. I 
: >just got back from the most emotional therapy seesion I have ever had.
: >I cried so much I fell like I want to throw up. So believe me, it's so
: >very hard.
: It's always interesting to see how much variation there is between
: people.  I don't get why being in a male body is horrible and you hate it.
: I believe you, and I certainly don't mean this as an attack.  But it's
: an alien concept to me.  I'm a male and am perfectly happy living in a
: male body, but I think if I were to wake up one day magically transformed
: into a female body, I would not hate that.
: 
: So I'm curious: would most people feel horrible living in the body of
: one given sex, or would you be happy in either sex (assuming you didn't
: get hassled by obnoxious society...).  I personally would like to live
: in the future when sex changes are easy, cheap and safe.  ("Gee, I think
: I'll go to the party in a female body tonight...")
: 
: So is this transgendered, or am I intergendered? :-)

I'd just say you're not strongly gender-typed.  I personally am just strongly
typed enough that I am uncomfortable in a male body.  I can function; I think
I could probably even live my life that way.  However, it's sort of like
wearing itchy long underwear that don't quite fit.  It's better than nothing,
but it's uncomfortable all the time.  You eventually get used to it, but it
never stops itching, and you're constantly pulling at it to try and make it
fit better.

I've never (quite) hated my body.  I've been very frustrated with it, and
I've been upset about the fit, but I've never really hated my body.  I know
others who have (and I think who are much more strongly typed than I am).
I happen to be an androgynous person anyway, which I think helps.  YMMV.  :)

(I think it's likely if I lived in a society where sex changes were easy,
cheap, and safe, I'd wear a female body most of the time.  I might wear
a male body for certain special occasions...)

			-Deb

--
Deborah Parks (RP90)  (SotM 7/91)  DoD #0034  deb@boulder.colorado.edu   ------
"It's being both that's a bitch."                                      --\--- /
"I wanted to take my brain to hell and back and see what I had left."  \  \ //
"This howling in the distance, it's a captivating sound.                \  \/
        Can't tell if it's ecstasy or pain..."  -DW                      \/
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: rks@cscns.com (gisle j benediktsson)
Subject: Re: hi
Organization: Community_News_Service
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:02:27 GMT

Sally (an2764@anon.penet.fi) wrote:

: I also am new to this group. I am a student who has been cross-dressing
: for quite a while in private. I have been lucky so far and no-one has
: found out. I have read most of your short "auto-biographies" and find
: a lot of similarities between my feelings and yours. I am not sure if
: I will ever get the courage to walk along the streets in a skirt, etc.
: and I will probably remain a closet TV for the rest of my life.

Sally, if someone doesn't start, no one ever will. :-)

Why do you feel that you have to remain closeted? There is a quote I 
read some time back -- I don't recall the author at this point -- but the
gyst of it was this: those who oppress us have only two arms, two eyes
and two legs with which to oppress us. They are the same as us. They 
can not oppress us without our permission. 


: I have been brought up to believe that I am pervert for the way I think,
: but I don't believe anyone can be held responsible for the way he feels
: about something. Hence, I am either crazy for thinking the way I do or
: my upbringing was at fault. I seem to have everything going for me, good

It was your upbringing. Trust me. (yes, the check is in the mail and, if
I had the equipment, I would promise not to come in your mouth. :-)


: career prospects, good looking girlfriend , but I know that if I
: come out of the closet about being a TV, then I will probably lose
: everything. So my options at the moment are either be a successful

But you will gain your freedom. That is far more important than anything
you could ever have externally. 

: businessman for the rest of my life (while inside really f**ked up!)
: or just be myself and say to hell with peer pressure.

Yes! Yes! Yes! (Ah! That we could someday *stop* defining ourselves
by what we have instead of who we *are*!!) (depressed sigh)


: The reason for this article is just to say that I find this newsgroup
: to be very helpful and informative. If this note seems very confusing,
: well then, it probably has something to do with the fact that I am
: very confused at the moment.

Cool! Then keep talking! :-)


//gisle


Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an299@anon.penet.fi (Judy)
Subject: Hormones and breast size
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:57:28 GMT



Megan writes:

>Look at your mother and other women in your family and you can
>sort of get an idea of your size from them.

Right.  That is the size you will never exceed.  If you are 
lucky, you will achieve one cup size smaller than them.  But
not many are lucky.  Some TS patients achieve a B cup.  But 
most only get A's.  Areola development does not happen across 
the board and only the youngest get significant development
in their nipples.

Judy (|)
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Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: WHY?
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 06:07:15 GMT


certainly not a matter of choice.  i would gladly give up being
transsexual if there was any way i could do so and still remain sane,
just because being TS is a royal pain in the ass.  however, i've
----

Excuse me for butting in where I
perhaps do not belong, but isn't this
EXACTLY the attitude we need to 
conciously replace with a positive 
affinity?  Internalized homophobia
shame, and self hatred are huge 
problems in the Gay community and I
don't see any value in perpetuating
them in the Transgender community.

I've never hated being Gay, and I 
wouldn't change it for anything; in
my opinion, internalizing the attitude
that being WHAT YOU ARE (in this case
Transgender) is something you'd change
if only you could is not the most 
empowering way to relate to your 
Transgender identity.

This is not to deny the fact that 
the dominant culture hands anyone who
doesn't play by the gender rules a 
rather large portion of s---, but I
see no value in internalizing THEIR
destructive attitudes about US.

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an2166@anon.penet.fi (Michelle)
Subject: test
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:17:00 GMT


X-Anon-To: alt.transgendered

I too am having trouble posting anonymously...will this make it?

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Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ah568@yfn.ysu.edu (Melissa Preston)
Subject: Unsurprising news...
Reply-To: ah568@yfn.ysu.edu (Melissa Preston)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 01:56:37 GMT


M. Otto <otto@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> writes:
>In alt.shenanigans [...] dchiasson@mta.ca writes:
>> A good newsgroup to raid is alt.transgendered. They get pretty irate
>> when you post something in their group. Their responses are good for
>> a laughor two.  The takeover is actually in progress as of now. Join
>> in on the fun.
>> 
>>                                                      -Rascal
>
>*sigh*

Quite honestly, I'm not surprised to see this. There is a simple rule
for dealing with people who want to "get a rise out of you", ignore
them. I'll say it one more time:

   SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO SAY UNPLEASANT THINGS TO OTHERS JUST TO GET A
   RISE OUT OF THEM. THE BEST THING TO DO IS NOT TO GIVE THEM THE PLEASURE
   OF KNOWING THAT THEY'VE GOT TO YOU. IF NO ONE REPLYS TO THEIR POSTING,
   NOT EVEN BY MAIL, AND *ESPECIALLY NOT BY POSTING A FOLLOW-UP ARTICLE
   TO THE NEWSGROUP*, THEY'LL WONDER IF ANYONE EVEN SAW WHAT THEY WROTE.
   IN THE END, THEY'LL TIRE AND GIVE UP.

For as long as there are those among us who feel compelled to answer
people who obviously aren't here with any willingness to be educated,
abusive posts will be a problem.

Most newsreaders have an ability to automatically avoid (or "kill")
articles from particular posters. I suggest people learn how to use
these facilities.  For starters, I'd suggest that people ignore anything
that comes from *@mta.ca.

Finally remember that if someone continues to be abusive on the newsgroup,
you can always send mail to their site administrator, etc.

Best Regards,

    Melissa.
-- 
Okay, so I got it wrong; I guess I was in a hurry.  //  Melissa Preston
						   //  ah568@yfn.ysu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: WHY?
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:05:39 GMT


Re: "You are what God created you to 
be..."

Not all of us worship a God that
condemns transgenderism or 
crossdressing as "sin".  If yours does,
perhaps you'd find a more receptive
audience in alt.bible.

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Friday, 18 Dec 1992 19:26:41 EST
From: <WOMENCTR@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Wendy's visiting Peter Pan..:-)

Wendy, Have a good time ducks.... Huggs Miriam
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: laurahal@microsoft.com (Laura Halliday)
Subject: alt.transgendered charter thoughts
Date: 15 Dec 92 16:29:43 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation


An important part of any alt.transgendered charter needs to be a statement
like what you find in soc.motss's - that this is *not* a newsgroup for
discussing the morality or lack thereof of the participants or their
behavior. It may not completely shut down pinheads like Mr. New Brunswick,
but it may help.

...laura

@d Std.disclaimer "My name is not Bill, and I can count the digits \
in my bank balance on one hand. Thus, I do not speak for Microsoft."
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an2764@anon.penet.fi (Sally)
Subject: hi
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:57:30 GMT

Hi,
(I tried sending this before, but it obviously did not reach the net.)

I also am new to this group. I am a student who has been cross-dressing
for quite a while in private. I have been lucky so far and no-one has
found out. I have read most of your short "auto-biographies" and find
a lot of similarities between my feelings and yours. I am not sure if
I will ever get the courage to walk along the streets in a skirt, etc.
and I will probably remain a closet TV for the rest of my life.

I have been brought up to believe that I am pervert for the way I think,
but I don't believe anyone can be held responsible for the way he feels
about something. Hence, I am either crazy for thinking the way I do or
my upbringing was at fault. I seem to have everything going for me, good
career prospects, good looking girlfriend , but I know that if I
come out of the closet about being a TV, then I will probably lose
everything. So my options at the moment are either be a successful
businessman for the rest of my life (while inside really f**ked up!)
or just be myself and say to hell with peer pressure.

The reason for this article is just to say that I find this newsgroup
to be very helpful and informative. If this note seems very confusing,
well then, it probably has something to do with the fact that I am
very confused at the moment.

Any help or sugestions offered will be gratefully accepted
thanks

Sally

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Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Lorraine Lee)
Subject: Re: WHY?
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:06:01 GMT

In article <921217161504@furry-creatures.ftp.com>, vyxter@ftp.com  (Vicki Streiff) writes:

>question:
>if a full-time crossdresser is applying for a job at a company where
>sie knows cross-dressing won't be a problem, what would sie wear to 
>the interview?
>--
>love and spice,
>		--vyxter			       	      

This is a hypothetical question, right?

If cross-dressing won't be a problem can I assume non-conservative dressing
won't be a problem?  Does this mean I don't have to wear the female pinstripe
business uniform which looks like the male business uniform only with football
shoulders?  /* pause for vomiting */

I go for that elusive casual-yet-feminine-yet-understatedly-feminine look; long
skirts in cotton or denim, oversize sweaters, dangly large but definitely not
"chunky" earrings.  No makeup.  Flat shoes or real tall boots depending on
season.  So far only in absolute privacy.  :(

As far as appearing thus at work, I just can't envision doing so before
changing my legal status.  And I can't envision changing my legal status until
I'm pretty sure I have a "good" job I can "take with me".  Actually marketable
skill I can take with me are more important.  But I'm sick and tired of being
at the mercy of the market.  Ain't no painless way from here to there.  But
where there's a will, there's a way.

Please PLEASE provide name and address of said company!



Lorraine
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste)
Subject: Re: Hormones and breast size
Followup-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: AEGIS
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:01:36 GMT

In article <1gglhkINN8eg@gap.caltech.edu>, dank@cco.caltech.edu (Daniel R.
Kegel) wrote:
> 
> an299@anon.penet.fi (Judy) writes:
> >Areola development does not happen across the board and only the youngest 
> >get significant development in their nipples.
> 
> Do you have more info on this?  I happened across a book, "Woman on the
> Edge of Time", which portrayed a utopia where (among other things)
> all three (!) parents shared the work of breastfeeding; everybody
> had modestly sized breasts, men and women both, and took lactation-inducing
> hormones before the baby arrived from the 'breeder' (a machine).
> I'm wondering how practical that is (the breastfeeding part!).
> - Dan

I was told of a pre op TS that with the help of her encronlgist
went off hormones to enpregnate her wife. Was successful! Got back
on hormones and was able to breast feed her child!

Love and hugs,

Celeste
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Orientation/Identity
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:48:12 GMT


RE: I'm not sure if I understand your 
logic...

Girl, no one has ever accused me of
logical thought!  Issues relating to 
gender identity sometimes are difficult
to articulate in a culture that depends
on fixed gender identity and fixed
gender role.

For me, I am trying to articulate a 
sexual/emotive attraction to beings 
with male genitalia, but I -do not-
find myself attracted to men who are 
busy affirming the heterosexual male
gender role, since it's supremacy
depends on condemning everything else
as immoral.

I am (biologically) male, 
orientationally Queer, and I
am attracted to other Queer 
biologically male persons; I am -not-
interested in dating "straight" acting
Gays.

I affirm an androgynous gender identity
which allows me to express certain 
characteristics of myself that are
denied biological males by this culture
and I most often find that the folks I
am most interested in (sexually and 
otherwise) are people who are similarly
unconstrained by the need to conform to
cultural "norms" of gender role.

On the issue of labeling your 
orientation, that can be rather
confusing at times since (again) our
culture defines "acceptable" 
orientations as a function of gender
role (men are "supposed" to sleep with
women), and any attempt to carve out an
identity outside of the gender norm 
inevitably brings a conflict in terms
of reconciling one's orientation with
the morals of the dominant culture.

Happily, we don't need any such 
reconcilliation.

We need to CHANGE the dominant
culture's ideas about gender norms 
rather than try in vain to fit into
them: what this means on a practical
level is that if you're a TV who 
defines your crossdressed identity 
as lesbian, bisexual, omnisexual or 
into home appliances that's all 
JUST FINE, because we'l (finally!)
be moving beyond the need to classify
this gender norm "morally correct" 
and anything that falls outside of it
as "morally wrong".

I'm babbling again, but does this 
come any closer to a clearer articu-
lation of my thoughts?

*Hugs*
Ward/Diva

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: Bucky.Whaley@launchpad.unc.edu (Bucky Whaley)
Subject: thread of interest (Re: NOTICE - Details of the March on Washington)
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 08:06:32 GMT

There's a thread in soc.motss and soc.bi that is of interest to     
readers of alt.transgendered.  The original poster discusses his
decision not to participate in the March on Washington in April 1993
unless the inclusion of transgender civil rights in the March's list
of demands is rescinded.

[First message in thread = <1992Dec11.153134.11417@rtsg.mot.com>
 Subject: NOTICE - Details of the March on Washington] 

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an1669@anon.penet.fi (Joanne Isabella Lisa Nicolette)
Subject: Re: Orientation/Identity
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:05:34 GMT

Hi again, girls! :^)
  In <1992Dec12.063915.6001@news.ysu.edu>, Ward Chanley writes:

>In reality, sexual orientation (Who
>I am attracted to) and gender identity
>(Who I am and/or Who I like to emulate)
>are not interdependent by any means.
>For example, out of drag, I'm a Gay
>man, in drag I'm a straight woman.
>If the two were as related I'd be
>Gay in or out of drag.

I'm not sure if I grasp your logic, but I like what you're saying.
My situation carries this a bit further.  My own orientation 
changes depending on whether I'm crossdressed or not.  When I am 
not crossdressed [ :^( ] I am straight.  I don't find men the least 
bit attractive (Unless THEY are crossdressed, in which case they drive
me wild!), although I can still fantasize about being crossdressed and with
one.  When I am crossdressed, however, I am bisexual.  I still find women
(Including transvestites :) ) to be attractive and sexy, but I would now 
consider a possible relationship with a man (with me probably taking the   
female role, of course.)  My crossdressing does not turn me against women,
as I am primarily heterosexual.       
  When a transvestite is crossdressed, she IS the gender she is dressing as.
Even when I'm not crossdressed, sex with another transvestite is NOT in any
way homosexual.  When I am crossdressed, sex with another transvestite is
lesbianism, as is sex with a woman.  (Of course if the woman is not a lesbian 
herself she can feel free to consider me a male, I just hope she doesn't treat
me too much like one. :-)  )  When I am crossdressed and with a man, it would
be heterosexual (although I've never been with one, so I would be very nervous).
I have nothing against male homosexuality, but it has no appeal whatsoever for 
me peraonally.  This is not a problem because to me, if either of us (two males)
were crossdressed, she would BE a woman, i.e.: not male.  I'd like it best if
we were both `en femme', I guess I'm just a lesbian at heart.  
 
  Well I just had to share that with all my girlfriends out there.
                       Love, 
                         Joanne

  P.S.:  I'd love to hear from any CD/TV/TS and also actual genetic females.
         I'd love to disscuss anything!  :^)



  

  

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Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: uad1149@dircon.co.uk (Ross Cochrane)
Subject: information wanted
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 13:26:18 GMT
Summary: general support and help request
Keywords: femanine transvestism


At last I've found what I've been looking for for a long time. 
 I have
recently started getting various newsgroups and imagine my utter 
delight
when I found "transgendered".  Ever since I was very young, 
I have felt a
very strong desire to wear women's clothes, not just for the 
sensation that
gives, although that in itself is very pleasurable indeed, but 
also for the
imotional release it brings.  When dressed, I feel a special 
sense of
releafe, not to say peace.  It's difficult to describe, but 
I seem to find
skirts a much more natural garment to wear.  Unfortunately, 
I have not yet
reached the stage where I can go out in public as, being married, 
my wife,
although I think she suspects, has somewhat puritanical notions 
about the
whole subject - this I feel is due to ignorance rather than 
anything else,
but I should love to be in a position to explain to her just 
how I feel. 
There are times when I long to become femanine and yet there 
are other
times when I think it is merely transvestism.  I should very 
much value any
support and tips people can give me who have had a similar experience 
and
are now at peace with themselves.
 
I believe there's a support group in the UK.  If anyone has 
the phone
number, I should be grateful.

I trust this makes some sort of sense.
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: noid@ritcsh.csh.rit.edu (i live in the dark)
Subject: see ya next year!
Originator: noid@nick.csh.rit.edu
Organization: Computer Science House @ RIT
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 17:26:49 GMT


dosen't it figure??  i just find the best newsgroup ever thought of, filled
	with the greatest people, and i get kicked out of school for christmas 
	vacation.  what kind of vacation is that??  two whole weeks without
	you guys to keep my spirits up.
oh well.....   see ya next year....

and everyone have the happiest of hanukkah's 
		  the merriest of christmass's
	      and the best of new years

much love and many e-hugs
	kathy