From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Killing Liches with Staves of the Magi, HA!!!
Originator: kjenks@gothamcity
Keywords: it works
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 20:57:24 GMT

>>In article <Qen9xn200Uh_051CEr@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Jordan M. Wolbrum" <jw67+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>> If you really need to kill a lich, have your henchman break the Staff of
>>> the Magi near it.  It will never survive.

To which mage@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Mage) replies:
>  1) Who has a Staff of the Magi to waste on killing a lich in the
>     first place, perhaps as a last ditch effort, but never as a 
>     killing technique.

Any party powerful enough to even THINK about taking on a lich has
probable encountered a few magic items, maybe even a Staff of the
Magi.  And if he's 16th level or higher, a Mage (I use the title
properly here) can MAKE a Staff of the Magi for around 50,000 GP, a few
months' enchantment time, a point or two of Constitution (Permanency
risks, you know), and 150 days of rest and recuperation.  Some
player characters might even think it's worth the investment,
especially to kill a lich.

In a game I DM, a 20th level Archmage (correct title) did use his Staff
of Power for a Retributive Strike when fighting 12 fire giants, 12
vampirically-regenerating "crystal giants," three evil titans, and
Vecna himself.  The Mage killed seven giants, Vecna, himself, and a
paladin (oops), but one of the titans used a Wish (from a scroll
previously written by Vecna for exactly this purpose) to restore their
"party," so the Mage died and lost all his magic for naught.  The
Mage's party Wished him back (minus magic items) but the Staff was
gone.  A temporary impasse in an ongoing war.

Tony (a.k.a. Mage) asks: "Who has a Staff of the Magi to waste on
killing a lich?"  I say that anybody who expects to fight a lich had
better be at least that well-armed, or they might as well stay at
home.

>  2) Your "Henchman" had better be a magic-user, because the act of
>     a retributive strike requires more than the actual breaking
>     of the staff, it is a magical property that the magic-user
>     may invoke.

Agreed.

>  3) See the DM's guide and I'm sure given time I can reference
>     plenty of other materials, Your henchman is not very likely
>     to throw away his life so that you may collect the lich's
>     hoard, as a matter of fact you merely requesting such an act
>     is a break of faith with him and one that any other henchmen
>     you have are not likely to take easily.  A henchman serves
>     you but is not your slave and only the most fanatical would
>     protect you with their lives, but never attack a lich for
>     you in the way you describe.

What if you promise to Wish the henchman back, and he has reason
to believe you?  Nothing inspires loyalty like KNOWING that you'll
never die permanently as long as your master survives.

Have you never heard of a henchman who would die to save his master,
especially if he knows that death is only temporary?  If you can't
imagine this, you haven't thought enough about how the existence of
magic, especially Raise Dead and Wish, will affect the psychology of
the people exposed to it.  Magic would radically change one's point of
view.  This is why Christians are so impressed by The Resurrection.

The ability to raise people from the dead will have a radical change on
the way people interact.  If you haven't seen this, your DM isn't very
good, or lacks an understanding of human beings and their fears.

>I have seen more of the Power-Gamer attitude in the many years
>I have played the game than I sometimes can tend to bear, Most
>of the veteran gamers, especially those who enjoy the heroic 
>campaign and the saga, would agree most heartily with this
>letter.

Not this veteran gamer.

>My apologies to the other readers of the rec.games.frp.dnd.
>I felt [that] this needed to be addressed netwide rather than
>in a personal flame.

You seem to have problems with the concepts of playing real characters
and real monsters at those power levels.  It's harder to do,
admittedly, than running a canned module or beating up a couple of
giants, but it's a fun change from the more usual fear-of-ten-orcs way
of playing.  I heartily recommend that you try it with a competent DM.
Unfortunately, many of the DM's who play high power levels are the less
comptetent variety who do not play the monsters and NPC's with power,
insight, wisdom and motivation.

>Thanks for your time and consideration.
>Tony aka mage.
>
>PS> calling a lich just a monster is like calling a lambourghini just a car.

In my years of playing, I've encountered many different attitudes
toward "power gaming."  There's nothing wrong with power gaming
as a sub-genre of fantasy role playing; it just requires a DM who
is really imaginative enough to come up with a gradually increasing
set of challenges, each more impressive than the last.  For some
players, this makes for a rich, whole universe, and a fun game to play.

Isn't that the point?

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

      "Liches were formerly ultra powerful magic-users or
        magic-user/clerics of not less than 18th level of magic-user."
         -- AD&D Monster Manual 1, p. 61.