HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:56:58 GMT

locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo the Butcher) writes:
: 
: In fact, I suspect Mr Billings may be a member; who else would be building
: medeaval-style cannons but the sca? (and the nordic theme would fit nicely
: with a SCA personna)

He never said anything about medieval cannons. Muzzle loaders were used in
the Civil War - possibly to some extent in the First World War.

It is fun to watch the muzzle loading clubs fire bowling balls out of their
mortars and cannon.

bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us (Sean M. Foley)
Subject: Re: Bi/Pan Sexuality and the New Aeon from the Orgone Committee
Organization: UUMEME Public Access Xenix
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 01:25:49 GMT

In article <Leo_Sacher.039r@kumear.apana.org.au> Leo_Sacher@kumear.apana.org.au (Leo Sacher) writes:
>This article was interesting but says nothing about other sexual minorites
>such as sadomasochists. Liber Null covers the magical implications of S/M,
>in that it is against trying to experience only one half of pleasure/pain
>or any other duality. It also covers pain as a method of acheiving
>one-pointedness. Does Orgone or any other group represented here have
>anything to say on the subject?
    It would probably be safe to assume that :
      1> It is doubtful that OC has a direct opinion/statement on this issue.
      2> No one truely cares what this group thinks about sexuality.

  Do you WANT to be approved by some group or organization? I couldn't call
one's sexual life a matter that should be "sanctioned" by any group. The
whole thing rests on the assumption that groups have the "ability" to
legislate this part of life. Any group that cannot tolerate different 
cultures or types of people isn't much of a group, and will eventually
destroy itself from within by its intolerance. As for bi/pan being a
minority, that again is questionable.. I believe it would be more accurate
to say that there are more bi's than any other preference, but since there
is a perceived intolerance most people wouldn't come out with it. There
is no "right" or "wrong" on this issue outside of the "approval" aspect. 
What does it matter if I like your sexuality, or you like mine? It doesn't
matter, quite simply. Be yourself regardless of where you are.

-Sean
-- 
| sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us |       I only look like I have a clue.           |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      <insert a quote of wisdom>
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From: mike.mcaulay@spacebbs.com (Mike Mcaulay) 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Hello, Harish, and Bran
Date: 30 Dec 92 15:36:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: mike.mcaulay@spacebbs.com (Mike Mcaulay) 


jasonp@bungie.prime.com writes:

-> In article <72569@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi
-> Morgoth NagaSiva |> 9212.29 e.v.
-> |> Lowell Morisson quotes Harish Reddy and writes, I respond to both:
-> |> harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy) wrote:
-> |> Harish, I think you were right and honest the first time.  Power
-> is the |> major lure to Magick and you knew enough to associate it.
->
-> I can't find myself agreeing. Power is meaningless, I knew
-> that instinctively (intrinsically?) before dipping in my toe.

So, then, you wouldn't mind my punching you in the nose?

-> Why, Tagi? Why should his statement bear any more need for
-> his exposition than 'DWTW' should for AC?

Because it is fatuous.  Note also that Crowley was at pains to make
clear the precise meaning of DWTW.

M.
                                                   
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SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 05:05:46 GMT

joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
: In article <1992Dec25.091534.14473@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com 
: (bill nelson) writes:
: 
: >   : my point exactly. glad we agree on a few things. 
: >   : how to do good by using "bad" MAGIC.
: >   : use the BAD magic to nail a fellow practioner who is your nemesis but 
: >   : who has` also been plagueing a town with his mischief. get it ?
: 
: >   I get it - but I don't agree. I have never felt that "two wrongs make a
: >   right" - no matter how bad the original wrong.  I would expect two negative
: >   actions to add to each other - not cancel.
: 
: besides, if you are bound and determined to 'nail' the booger, and it is
: justified in your opinion etc, why not just shoot him? that's a perfectly
: good magickal act, it is more likely to be effective, it's more direct and
: has a sort of elegance about it.

Exactly. And, there is no chance of deluding yourself into believing that
you accomplished anything.

Bill
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Adepti/Magister Formulae and Great Persons
Date: Sat,  2 Jan 93 12:34:28 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

93!01.02 e.v.


ORPHEUS and Steve Cranmer wrote nice things with which I agree completely.

I'd like to add that I haven't seen the thread really start yet beyond
a call for some expression of the formulae and the stories which gave
them substance.  If nothing comes up soon I'll post a quote or two
regarding the formulae from popular sources and see if we can pin it
down before moving onto popular persons.

Thyagi (Tagi to alt.magick, hmmmm?  Oh you just wait. ;>)
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:26:56 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b26

farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
> There are plenty of opposing opinions in this group without including 
> Xtians. 

Eh, sorry to disturb you, but some of the people who've been posting here for 
years are Christian.  Me, for instance :)...



Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:44:53 GMT

scarrobi@shearson.com (Steve Carrobis) writes:

>unfortunately i have to stick to my guns. its like White/Black Magic. 
>they exist. and u could use either to get an opposing result. 

What do *you* mean by "White/Black Magic"?

If I use the standard definitions of our culture, it is my experience--and the 
experience of those I have worked with--that their is no such thing as Black or
White magic.  There is just magic, and it can be used for any purpose.  

If, however, I use a completely different set of definitions of black/white 
magic, which is based on the symbolic meanings of black/white in my religious
practice, there is such a thing as black/white magic, and it has nothing to do
with distinctions of good/evil.  However, they cannot be used to get the same
results as each other.  Of course, that's because they are distinctions within
a system, rather than two opposing systems, which I suspect is what the poster
was conceiving of when sie wrote that paragraph.

Either way, my experience does not concur with the posters statements.  However,
the poster might have meant something other than either of the definition sets
I used here.  Please, Steve, clarify your meaning--define your terms for us.

Hoping to hear from you soon.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Magic and Morals (was: Re: Harish)
Date: 3 Jan 93 11:19:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <memo.837514@cix.compulink.co.uk>, shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk writes...
>In-Reply-To: <C09D3o.B8A@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
> 
>>Definitely not the fashion now to say something is simply wrong; 
>>sounds so judgmental, but now and then its refreshing to do so - 
>>though risky.:)
> 
> 
>I think you're completely wrong there actually Peggy.
> 

Very possible.

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka)
Subject: Sex?? Magick??
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 18:27:22 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 01-02-93 13:23
 Mi> Well, I consider Kraig a bit of an immature putz at times but I agree
 Mi> that that book is good. The group he is refering to sounds like the
 Mi> Frosts' School of Wicca (though Wiccans don't usually consider what
 Mi> the Frosts do to be Wicca) which has included all sorts of things in
 Mi> the past. ask over on alt.pagan about it.

Consider it done...thanks for the advice....

... ----->|*  MARK!
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Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Comments on evil
Keywords: evil, Crowley, responsibility
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:08:49 GMT

ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.) writes:

>"Evil" (as well as "goodness") is a sociological concept that cannot exist
>without an action or intention within a specific time frame.  Hence, objects
>or any non-living matter cannot be "evil".

To be more precise, I would argue that even living matter cannot BE evil.  It
is only an act which can be defined as evil.  A person is not evil.  They
may be malicious or prone to evil, however.

>What happens when a mage who holds real power decides upon a purpose with
>such a drive?

It is my experience that only such a drive produces real power.

>How does a mage deal with the responsibility that comes with power?

You've been reading Spiderman again, haven't you? <g>

The existence of so many irresponsible people with power serves as adequate
refutation of the premises behind your question.  The mere acquisition of
power does not make one responsible, by any means.

The universe has no morals; natural laws have no pity.

>As for "lumping" Crowley into this discussion, the "Do what thou wilt is
>the whole of the law" phrase implies a rupture with accepted soc. concepts
>in favor of a self-defined attitude towards responsibility.

If you accept the "accepted soc. concepts," is that not _also_ a "self-
defined attitude towards responsibility?"  Individual choice makes the
difference.  Crowley pointed out the choice that people have but do not
feel comfortable taking advantage of.  It is only a mage who has the
balls to make such a choice, deliberately, who can come into possession
of real power.



-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: cn573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ray Henry)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Question:  What is the definition of "Evil"?
Date: 26 Dec 1992 05:39:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I define evil in this fashion: any given act or concept is considered
evil by person X if said act or concept is in opposition to the
belief system of person X. Thus, one man's good can be another man's
evil and so forth. (Man being intended in the dubious "gender neutral"
here.)

With love and light,

Antryg
-- 
Ray Henry   cn573@cleveland.freenet.edu

Sometimes with Bill Shankster in piggyback.  :)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:27:54 GMT

porta@wam.umd.edu (David Delaney Palmer) writes:
: In article <71824@cup.portal.com> Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:
: >I only have one question for those moralists (especially from 'earth-based'
: >religions) who preach that the 'point-down' or 'inverted' pentagram
: >(heptagram, nonagram, or even trigram!) is somehow indicative of 'evil'
: >or 'malevolence':
: >
: >
: >Toward what, precisely, is the point directed?
: >
: >
: >Figure it out, kiddies.
: 
: 	I think you need to figure it son!  There is no such thing as
: a hell or a devil in earth based, Goddess based religions.  The next
: time you post know what the hell you are talking about.

Have you heard of Hades? How much do you know about Greek, and other,
ancient mythologies? How many of the wiccan, much less pagan, sect have
you experienced?

Do you believe that all the goddess based religions are based on all
lightness and goodness and froth?  It is true that the "devil" is a
Judeo-Christian invention. So what? Many other religions have daemons
or evil spirits or evil deities.

I suggest you do a little more research before you spout off at the mouth
again. I submit that Thyagi probably knows far more about the various
religions than you do. 

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Subject: Western Martial Arts (again) (was: Re: Chivalry)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:22:02 GMT


Long, long ago, in a thread far, far away, there was a discussion going
on about martial arts in Western culture...

I took some time off to do some research (and, incidentally, get into a
thorough tangle in the Apocalypse thread).  To all those to whom I
promised a response or further info, my apologies for the delay!

Anyhow:

The question was posed:  were there ever any Western equivalents to the
various Oriental martial arts?

The answer, unambiguously, is yes.

As little as a hundred years ago you could go to establishments in 
England to receive a comprehensive training in boxing, fencing with
the foil, broadsword, quarterstaff and assorted other weapons.  These
were integrated to the extent of having common stances and footwork.

There was also the singlestick, which was basically an English _shinai_
-- a hazel stick as big around as your thumb, with a basket hilt
(literally -- it was made of basketry).  Singlestick bouts were fought
to first blood.

From a little earlier in the 19th century, I've found honest-to-gawd
sword katas, for cavalry saber and sailor's cutlass, which were 
practiced (by the hour!) by members of Her Majesty's armed forces.

Go back farther still and there's a whole tradition of "schools of
defence" (which is where the term "fencing" comes from, ultimately)
which were precisely equivalent to the classical Japanese _bujutsu_
schools.  Earlier today I was looking at two prints, an English
engraving of about 1650 and a Japanese ukiyo-e print of about 1700,
both showing schools of arms with training in full tilt; the clothes
and some of the weapons are different, but other than that there's
not a lot of difference.

These Western arts aren't esoteric martial arts, true enough. My
suspicion, though, is that neither were the great majority of their
contemporary Asian equivalents.  Currently, most karate, jujutsu
and judo is pretty thoroughly non-esoteric in nature; ditto the
classical Japanese _bujutsu_ systems, and the "external" or _wai-chia_
schools of kung-fu (i.e., the great majority of them).  These use
the same kind of skills and approaches as, say, fencing or -- another
European martial art I should have mentioned! -- the French art of
savate, which is one mean form of kickboxing.

The Asian martial arts that fall on the esoteric side of the line
are, as I think LeGrand pointed out a little while back, of fairly
recent origin, all things considered.  (Ninjutsu may be an exception
to this, but then how much is actually known about its history?)
It seems possible that the esoterization of the martial arts in Asia
isn't an ancient tradition, then, but a relatively recent development
which is just now beginning to spread to other parts of the world.
(Rather like the history of alchemy, in fact, if Joseph Needham's
theories are right...)

Maybe the best answer to the question of whether there are Western
esoteric martial arts, then, is:  not yet...

-- John Michael Greer
   grimoire@u.washington.edu
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:48:14 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b26

In article <BzLKJA.6DI.1@cs.cmu.edu>, drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
> Note that the pentagram was also used early on by some Christian groups. 

In fact, we went over the whole issue of the history of the pentagram on this 
very group earlier this year.  Highlights from that discussion include:

 - The use of the "inverted" pentagram to denote evil is a quite recent
   usage, and first appears in the works of Eliphas Levi.  He is also the
   source of the "goat's head" glyph.  Before this, neither orientation
   had evil connotations per se.

 - The earliest recorded use of the pentagram as a mystical symbol was by
   the Gnostics, who called it the Blazing Star.  It was also considered by
   Christians during the middle ages to be a symbol of the Five Wounds of
   Christ, and used as a protective glyph, generally as a variation on the
   Seal of Solomon (a Star of David within a circle).

 - The association of the pentagram with non-Christian belief, and its
   modern "elemental" analysis, were evidently introduced during the
   revival of occultism in the 17th and 18th centuries.  The Masons and
   similar groups such as the OTO took it up--for example, A.E. Waite is
   the person who introduced the symbol into the Tarot deck, replacing
   the traditional suit of Coins.

 - The modern pagan movement picked up the pentagram as part of a general
   borrowing from earlier "occult" usage, and Wicca in particular has
   taken it up as an explicit denotational symbol, similar to the
   cross, the Thor's hammer, and so on.

I find it ironic that modern fundies have latched onto the pentagram as a
Satanic symbol.  Amazing how gullible people are.



Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Crowley and Gardner (was re: pentagrams)
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:23:18 GMT

 As a local Gardnerian, I thought I would answer a few of these questions...

In article <72355@cup.portal.com> Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:
>9212.24 e.v. 
>
>What, exactly, is this 'Toronto manuscript'?  What relationship does
> it have to Gardner's _Book of Shadows_?

 As was stated in Robert's article, the manuscript in Toronto is the
oldest known copy of Gardner's BOS.

>How important is the Toronto manuscript to Gardnerian practice and the
> Gardnerian tradition generally?

 Well, since it is the earliest one, all later revisions are baed on it.
Gardnerians don't go around talking about the "mystical Toronto
manuscript" if that is what you mean. Are BOSs are made available to us
from our intiators when we are initiated. Mine isn't from Toronto by any
means.

>In other words, how much influence have the writings he copied from
> Crowley's works had in the history of Witchcraft?

 Crowley's works (and those of others) have been fairly influential.
Gardnerian Wicca, no matter what some people like to believe, is the basis
for 99% of modern Wicca. Anything tha affected it affects the rest of the
traditions. Those few traditions (and they are REAL few) that don't seem
to be Gardnerian based have still been heavily influenced by Gardner's work.

>Response:
>
>When you say 'modern Witchcraft', what are you talking about?
>JUST Gardnerianism and its offshoots?  Or other sects as well?
>Would you say that the entirety comes under the category of 'Wicca'?

Almost all traditions of Wicca are offshoots of Gardnerianism, either
through published books which people used to start practising or through
people leaving traditions and creating their own. As I said above, there
are very few (I won't say none however) traditions that don't come from
Gardnerianism and even these are heavily influenced.

>Response:
>
>Is there information available about either of these individuals in
>published sources?  What can you tell us of their histories and
>interests aside from the qualifications you've already mentioned?

 Look at _Witchcraft for Tomorrow_ by Doreen Valiente. It is that book, I
believe (it could be another), that has the story of her trying to track
down who "Old Dorothy" was.

Wassail,
G.G.
From: mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka)
Subject: Sex? Magic??
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 18:27:31 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 01-02-93 13:23
 > I recently finished reading Parts of Donald Michael Kraig's book
 > "Modern Magic - Eleven Lessons in the High Magical Arts". A very
 > good book for either novice or expert.
 > 
 > Only one disturbing quote caught my eye, in the cahpter on Sex Magic.

 Oi> Disturbing?

Yes, Kraig put it quite elegantly by saying that our sexuality is our
most private part of our sexuality. Control that and you control the
person. So it could be disturbing if this group is using this technique
as a form of "brainwashing"

 > He spoke of a sect "one organization I am familiar with has the leader
 > determine sexual partners. this includes having to be in an adjacent
 > room while your mate has intercourse with another person. This allows
 > you to hear every sound."

 Oi> Big deal.  If people decide to do this its their business.  

 It IS a big deal in that it brings into disrepute Ceremonial Magick
 all around if this ceremony is used for unethical purposes. Much like
 the activities of X-tian televangelists have discredited that group.

Unfortunately, people don't tend to discriminate when they hear something
bad about a sect....they then lump ALL of us into the same barrel (ie..
just like down south in Georgia recently a  WICCAN coven was arrested
for SATANIC (if you can believe it) practices.

 Oi> Question is, why bother with separate rooms?

That I can't comment on. Kraig didn't describe the ceremony so without
knowing within what context the act takes place in, it would be fruitless
to speculate on why the separate rooms...

... ----->|*  MARK!
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