HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hafner@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Walter 'madhouse' Hafner)
Subject: Re: Machines named by Tolkien's characters
X-Copyright: Distribution of this article outside electronic nets is strictly
             prohibited, due to some trouble with a german journal ('Emma').
	<1fhttpINN1cn@uranium.sto.pdb.sni.de>
	<1992Dec4.094256.10360@fwi.uva.nl>
	<1992Dec9.175329.38@arbi.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
	<1992Dec14.025254.26546@b11.b11.ingr.com>
Originator: hafner@gshalle3.informatik.tu-muenchen.de
Organization: Inst. fuer Informatik, TU Muenchen, Germany
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:37:38 GMT
X-Flame-To: alt.dev.null
Reply-To: hafner@gshalle3.informatik.tu-muenchen.de

In article <1992Dec14.025254.26546@b11.b11.ingr.com> craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson) writes:

   Ha. Almost forgot. The DG MV/8000 was code-named "Eagle", so one of
   the first ones delivered to OS QA was named "Gwaihir". It's been 
   retired a long time. There was a "gollum" also, and probably others.

   There's a machine on the Intergraph net named "frodo". OK, just a 
   minute, dig dig ... also bilbo, gondor, hobbits, ranger (ambiguous).
   There's also a "sam" but I doubt it refers to Gamgee.

And then there is the 'hobbit' Microprocessor AT&T released a month ago.
Kind of a RISC-processor especially for portables, as far as I understand
it ...

-Walter
--
Walter Hafner,  Fichtenweg 10,  8901 Dinkelscherben,  Germany,  Tel: 08292/1436
hafner@informatik.tu-muenchen.de  (preferred address)           1|  /\ /\ /\
hafner@forwiss.tu-muenchen.de     (AI or Fuzzy related topics)   | /  X  X  \
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From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: A question of respect and form
Date: 12 Dec 92 07:48:43
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: kelsey@jupiter.SLAC.Stanford.EDU's message of Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:32:14 GMT

In article <Bz4HLq.7xI@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU> kelsey@jupiter.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Mike Kelsey) writes:
>    In this group, as in many, the regular posters are developing conventional
>    abbreviations for the common subject matter.  I have seen, for example,

Well, it's important to get these concerns off of ones' chest, so the
saying goes.  I understand your concern, but think that `colloquial'
writing is fine in most places; formal writing has its place in essays and
other `presentation-quality' preparations.  A message posted here is one of
millions posted through the net-- a `tear in the rain' as Roy Batty said.

Why should we, the authors of the millions of messages, take the time to
make each utterly perfect, when they will only be forgotten by the next
day?  I suppose they will all be saved in some huge database, somewhere;
nevertheless when writing one of what will most likely be ten or fifteen
news-posts in one day, my objective is generally to get the idea through as
simply as possible.  Despite the fact that you do not approve of
abbreviations such as `LoTR' (Meaning `Lord of the Rings'), you do not fail
to understand its meaning.  Therefore, why should we work more than is
necissary?  Our messages are obviously getting across.

How's that for an explanation?

	Mike.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:04:32 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>It seems that the lesson here is that technology is bad, magic is
>dangerous and liable to be corrupted, and only good hobbit salt-of-the-earth
>type behavior is ultimately safe.

I disagree.  The hobbits who were "safely behaving" were taken over by
Saruman.  The four hobbits who travelled did things like killed orcs,
used magic items, incited a war (Ents vs. Saruman), and note that Frodo
used the Ring to force Gollum to behave.

The only thing that can be said is that no behavior is ultimately safe in LOTR.
The more agreessive four hobbit Walkers did use "magic" for the purpose of
their quest or accidentally along it.  Frodo+Sam used the One Ring, and
Pippin used the Stone.  They all used the cloaks and food of Lorien, and
the daggers of the foes of Angmar.  They barely survived, even after
enciting a war between the Ents and Saruman (most un-hobbitlike).  The
"stay-at-home "good" hobbits" were captured by Saruman's Men, proving that
even the stay-at-home Hobbit nature is not enough to fight evil.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
From: j-germuska@nwu.edu (Joe Germuska)
Subject: Re: Half-elves becoming elves
Originator: germuska@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 07:24:44 GMT

In <q7V=lj@engin.umich.edu> mschiffer@engin.umich.edu (Michael S. Schiffer, LHN) writes:

>Actually, what _I_ want to know is why the choice of being among the
> elf-kindred seems to be revocable, while the choice of humanity is not.

Don't forget Tolkien's persistent "classism": The elves were the firstborn,
and in all ways the first beloved of Eru and the Valar (except for some
exceptions).  For an elf to give up eternal life and accept death and the
Halls of Mandos was a sacrifice, and one no doubt strange to some crotchety
old elves muttering about miscegenation -- but humans were not "granted the
gifts" that the elves were, and not entitled to simply choose certain
destinies.  

Forgive the lack of references, but it's late.

Peace,
	Joe
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Different dates given...
Date: 18 Dec 92 09:27:49 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen


Dates given in TLotR are in the hobbit calender. This
calendar is printed in one of the appendixes. The
summer solstice is at midyears day. In our calendar,
it is 21/6, if I am not mistaken. It should not
be difficult to find out. By the hobbit calendar,
midyears day is 11 days after 21/6, so dates in the
sixth month should be off by 11 days.
In our calendar, 1/7 is 11 days after 21/6. In the
hobbit calendar, 1/7 is 2 days after midyears day
(3 days in a leap year), so dates in the 7th month
should be off by 9 days. For the other months, you
need to take into consideration that hobbit months
are all 30 days long, while some gregorian months
are 31 or 28 days long.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mjw@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Alien)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:59:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.170737.24030@rchland.ibm.com> BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com writes:
>In article <Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz>, Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) writes:
>|> Leaving that to the side, there is still the issue of Tolkien's
>|> ranking of his human races. Clearly the Elves are at the top of the
>|> heap. The closer it is to the Valar, the better or more superior the
>|> race. However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
>|> divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
>|> unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy. In all
>|> honesty, I think we have in these chacracterisations some evidence of
>|> an underlying racism in Tolkien's worldview. 
>
>While I won't dispute much of your post, part of this paragraph is flatly
>wrong.  It is a common misconception that elves are blond and blue eyed.
>Yet blondness was very rare among elves.  The family in which Galadriel
>falls was the only one that had blond hair.
>
>Check out the descriptions of the elves.  I did one time and it was
>specifically mentioned that blond hair was unusual (in the Silmarillion
>I believe).  If I remember I will dig out the references tonight.
>-- 
>
>- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
>  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
From: urmvance@memstvx1.memst.edu (Richard Vance)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:18:10 -0600
Organization: Memphis St Univ's Comp Sci Mecca

In article <539@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
> And the kicker...
> 
> Frodo:		Linda Hunt.  No, really.  If she can do Billy Kwan in "The
> 		Year of Living Dangerously", she can do Frodo.  The problem
> 		is finding *another* dozen or so hobbits...

Well, what all the little folks in _Willow_? They could be adapted fairly
easily to the part. I've always thought they were the closest thing to hobbits
in recent movie history.
          ______                         ____
 _____   [__  __]     ||\  ||\           DDDD_
 ||  \\   __||__      ||___||\    /|     D---D     \\\\////     (  ( c  |-
 ||__//  [______]  _  ||---||\   /_|  R  D___D       \\//  //\\ )\ )    |-
 ||  \\           (_  ||   ||\  /  |     DDDD-                  ( \(    |-
                       \\   \\           ----
Richard Vance URMVANCE@memstvx1.memst.edu * Memphis St University, Memphis, TN
From: waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Date: 15 Dec 1992 23:11 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <3063@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet.org writes...
> 
>The Witch-King ruled the realm of Angmar, drove Earnur from the field
>of battle (only withdrawing when confronted with Glorfindel, would you
>mess with someone who once killed a Balrog?), and directed the Siege
>of Gondor.  He doesn't have much trouble finding and stabbing Frodo
>(which is all he thinks that he needs to do) on Weathertop.  They do
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>fear fire, (why?) and since they have nothing else to do up there,
>they get out of there.

I thought the Nazgul were actually trying to take possession of the
Ring.  What good would it have done them just to kill Frodo?  They 
wanted to return the Ring to Sauron.
> 
>The others do seem rather absent of identity.  Perhaps after living
>with Sauron for an Age and a half one's personality gets a bit faded.
>He might also not encourage signs of individuality.
>-- 
Agreed.  I think Sauron could rest assured that the Nazgul would not
try to use the Ring themselves, neither to challenge him nor to try
to free themselves from his servitude.

BTW, regarding the translation of "nazgul":  I thought "gul" meant 
sorcery or sorceror, as in "Morgul" and "Dol Guldur".  Sorry, I have
no references at hand.

Wayne. 
**********************************************************************

Wayne J. Broughton                 Take the road less travelled by.  
waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu    

Caltech has no idea what my opinions are;  
they think I'm working right now...
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: XNFI000 <XNFI@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: First Age Trivia
Organization: McGill University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:53:58 GMT

In article <ByyvCD.5M2@acsu.buffalo.edu> sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski) writes:
>In article <ByyGqp.7By@apollo.hp.com>, carlton@apollo.hp.com (Carl Hommel) writes...
>>"But the jewel burned the hand of Maedhros in pain unbearable;...
>> and being in anguish and despair he cast himself into a gaping chasm
>> filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that he bore was taken
>              ^^^^
>> into the bosom of the Earth.
>>    And it is told of Malgor that he could not endure the pain with which
>> the silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the Sea, and
>> thereafter he wanderer ever on the shores, singing in pain and regret
>> beside the waves....
>>     And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes;
>> one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the
>                                            ^^^^^
>> world, and one in the deep waters."  Silmarilion, p 253-254
>>
>>Air, Earth, and Water, but not Fire.  Even now, Melkor still is deprived
>>of the company of the Silmarils.
>
> How is the one that fell to the center of the Earth not joined
>with fire?
>
My guess would be that the geology of Arda is different from the
Earth's.  Underground fire seems to be present only in isolated, evil
places, like at Orodruin in Mordor or in the heart of Angband.  Arda
materialized from the song of Eru, not from a ball of molten rock.

The Walking Tree
>.
>.
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:50:46 GMT
	<1992Dec7.155031.15232@netcom.com>
	<1992Dec8.110123.2888@genie.slhs.udel.edu>
	<STSSRAM.92Dec10162816@st.unocal.COM>
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway

>>>>> On Fri, 11 Dec 1992 00:28:43 GMT, stssram@st.unocal.COM (Bob Myers) said:

>>>>> On Tue, 8 Dec 1992 11:01:23 GMT, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) said:

Nancy> On the other hand, nobody seems to worry about the ill effects of
Nancy> horses in the wrong hands.....The use of high Elvish "tech" seems
Nancy> to be hazardous in LOTR in a way that medieval technologies are
Nancy> not. 

	Bob> That's because Sauron doesn't have any power over your
	Bob> horse.

	Bob> The Palantiri and the Elvish rings are only hazardous
	Bob> because Sauron has power over them; they are not in any
	Bob> way inherently evil.

How about the silmarils, then?  Marvelous stuff, but created no end of
trouble to the elvish peoples, and, if memory serves, were the direct
reason to expulsion from valinor and kinslaying and all that.

--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: krsear02@ulkyvx.louisville.edu (Kendall 'Opusii' Sears)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:14:01 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

>>I'm prepared to back up every single opinion with quotes from the canon, if
>>need be.
> Hurray for that. Everyone raise your right hand and say along with Rao ...

Got one here.

> 
>>What do you think, Sirs?

Sir?  Am I getting THAT old?  Someone hand me a cane ;-)

> I think there are a minimum of three distinct but valid readings for
> every well-formed question about LOTR -- and of course many more for
> every poorly-formed one :-), so we'll be here a while ...

Only three?  Gee I may need to recount then. ;-)  How long do you think?
4 weeks, 2 months, a year, there and back again? ;-)

Kendall.

-- 

   Kendall Sears                   KRSEAR02@ULKYVX.bitnet
   Programmer                             ///
   Child Development Unit                /// Amiga
   Department of Pediatrics          \\\/// Currently running AmigaOS 2.04
   University of Louisville           \XX/ And Supporting Unix Sys V Rev 4.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Numbness is bliss... I can't feel a thing." -me.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: gilligan@cs1.bradley.edu (Edward Henigin)
Subject: Re: Machines named by Tolkien's characters
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: na
Date: 16 Dec 92 10:41:18 GMT

In <MFV9GZM@minnie.zdv.uni-mainz.de> arzheim@goofy (Kai Arzheimer ) writes:

>Don't flame me if that was already said but:
>our old campus-network consisted of Gandalf-modems connected to a concentrator box
>with big letters on it reading GANDALF. They are replacing it now with ethernet
>what a shitty name :(

You know, I always preferred the way Mithrandir sounded as compared
to Gandalf . . . 

--
|ed -- gilligan@camelot.bradley.edu                                          |
|   -- gilligan@cs1.bradley.edu     | If you want a friend, feed any animal. |
|    Are you deviant?  Probably.    |           -Jane's Addiction            |
From: dks@acpub.duke.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music)
Date: 13 Dec 92 03:24:41 GMT
Reply-To: dks@acpub.duke.edu


	Don't forget the Misty Mountains in "Misty Mountain Hop", even if
it were siomply an inspiration for the title and lines:
	"So I'm packin' my bags for the Misty Mountains (where the spirits
		go now)
	"Over the hills, where the spirits flie-e-i..."

							-Abdiel
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR (was Re: new theory on bombadil)
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:46:20 GMT

mcconnel@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell) writes:

[...]
> Rather, [hobbits] are hard to corrupt because they have, in general, an
> easy going nature in which they see no reason to dominate other people or look 
> for power.  They look for simple pleasures and their desires are simple ones.
> Therefore they have no need for large machines, weapons of war.  And, therefore,
> Sauron or Saruman have no direct line of attack for corrupting them.  Saruman 
> frighten them and he can corrupt their land, but he cannot corrupt the hobbits 
> themselves. 

Just to keep the waters muddy, one of the interesting parts of the
"Scouring of the Shire" is to see how some hobbits were partly corrupted
by the opportunity to boss others around, while most of the ones who
enforced or followed "the Rules" were only too happy to drop them
when given a chance to by Meriadoc and Peregrin.

-- Craig Presson
  All that is gold does not glitter,
  Not all those who wander are lost;
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: stssram@st.unocal.COM (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR (was Re: new theory on bombadil)
Reply-To: Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com
Organization: Unocal Energy Resources Division
	<1992Dec8.104446.2424@genie.slhs.udel.edu>
	<STSSRAM.92Dec10161109@st.unocal.COM>
	<1992Dec11.111035.11279@genie.slhs.udel.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:20:56 GMT


>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Dec 1992 10:44:46 GMT, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) said:

Nancy> And if you'll excuse my bringing in the Silmarillion, Feanor's trapping
Nancy> the light of the Trees in the Silmaril's was also a mistake--and he
Nancy> didn't even use moving parts or produce pollution!

In article <STSSRAM.92Dec10161109@st.unocal.COM> Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com writes:
Bob> A mistake!!!  A mistake!!!
Bob>
Bob> Without the Silmarils, the light of the Two Trees would have been lost forever!

>>>>> On Fri, 11 Dec 1992 11:10:35 GMT, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) said:
Nancy> Yes, but people just fought over the Silmarils....the light didn't do any
Nancy> good that I can remember. (It would have, if Feanor had used the Silmarils
Nancy> to revive the Trees, but he didn't.)

There were mistakes made in connection with the Silmarils, but making
them was not in itself a mistake.  

Greed and Pride, pure and simple, caused all the horrors.  That was the 
tragedy of the Noldor.  Surely you aren't going to claim that there was
no greed or pride until Feanor made the Silmarils?

(And anyway, the light of one of the Silmarils shines in the sky today.)

--
Bob Myers                              Unocal Energy Resources Division
Internet: Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com      Exploration and Seismic Technology
Phone: [714] 693-6951                  P. O. Box 68076
                                       Anaheim, California 92817-8076
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:45:40 GMT

In <Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) writes:

>Leaving that to the side, there is still the issue of Tolkien's
>ranking of his human races. Clearly the Elves are at the top of the
>heap. The closer it is to the Valar, the better or more superior the
>race. However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
>divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
>unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy. In all
>honesty, I think we have in these chacracterisations some evidence of
>an underlying racism in Tolkien's worldview. 

Don't forget that LotR is a kind of "modern legend" with ancient
Celtic legends as example. (At least, that's the way it was told to me
by several people). So, the heroes and "Good"-guys should be Celtic, thus
having blue eyes and blond hair. And the "Evil"-guys (in ancient times 
equivalent with "unknown") should be non-Celtic, thus being dark of skin.
And yes, this theme is clearly racist, but in those ancient times it didn't
matter much, because the two races lived at a convenient distance of eachother,
and neither had the means to fight a long-distanced war. I don't think
Tolkien believed that all "Good"-guys are blond with blue eyes, or would
want to propagate that idea, but he merely "borrowed" a theme from Celtic 
legend. 

Food for thought?

From the Adm3a of Hein Ragas, heinr@sci.kun.nl
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Eowyn (was Re: Elf-human pairings)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 19:41:39 GMT


In article <1992Dec11.155406.7750@ra.msstate.edu> paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil) writes:
>Julian C. Lander writes:
>>1) In Tolkein's world, women (adult females of any sentient race) are not 
>>heroic in the sense of fighting battles and returning trophies.  Men are.
>>The only "battling woman" in any sense at all is Luthien, 
>> 
>
>Tell that to Eowyn.  Seems to me she killed off the head of Sauron's
>army without the help of a man.  ( She did have a little help from a 
>*male* hobbit though :)
>

	And she also cops out at the end and decides that she would be
content just to marry a nobleman.  She starts off as a "battling woman," but
she renounces that status and ends up simply being a noble female for Faramir
to marry--  ultimately occupying the same functional role that Arwen does
for Aragorn.  The message imparted by Eowyn really seems to be that women
may want to go out in the world and be active like men are, but that ultimately
they'd really be more content just to get married and concern themselves with
domestic affairs.

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>



Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Subject: Aragorn: (was Re: Movie roles)
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:56:37 GMT

In article <1992Dec8.184150.1958@ra.msstate.edu>, maj1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Mark A. Jamison) writes:
|> 
|> Also don't forget that Aragorn was descibed as having a worn appearance 

Have you got a reference for this, Mark ?

I seem to recall that, when he was trying to get the hobbits to accompany him,
Aragorn said of himself, "I am older than I look. I might prove useful".

Sounds to me like he had a somewhat youthful (though perhaps tatty) appearance.

|>     Still looking for Luthien

Still hope you can find her !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Bill Taylor              wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Galaxies - results of chaotic amplification of quantum events in the big bang.
 Free will- the result of chaotic amplification of quantum events in the brain.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------