From: kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 26 Jul 92 08:56:10 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Jul25.053749.20266@wolves.uucp>, wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury) writes:
> In article <1992Jul21.100930.41773@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
>>
>>Andrea dworkin had a wonderful challenge to a Men's group she
>>addressed, in Idaho I believe.  She said basically she thought it was
>- Cut for space. -<

> As if I, or any other male, have the means to control the actions of
> other males on the other side of the world?  It was Cain who said "am I
> my brother's keeper?" and the JCI god who answered "yes"
> 
> Todd said it in another post in this thread,  are you decreeing original
> sin yet again?

Nope, just talking about an interesting address delivered by Andrea
Dworkin, that challenged men to do something.  She says she is doing
all she can, and it still isn't enough.  If men want the respect of
women, particularly Andrea Dworkin, they need to get up and do some
work too.  She chose one very important issue, rape.  Rape being a
crime committed virtually exclusively by men.  She suggests that along
with learning that it is okay to touch each other, men should be
working to stop rape.  Note, this speech was given in the late 70's I
think.  It has been a long time since I have read it.   

> 
> Yes, I'm mad as hell that my women friends feel unsafe and insecure
> walking alone, and more than once I've put my own ass on the line to
> object to some idiots sexist commentary when walking by.  I still do,
> despite having faced down more than one or two guns pointed in my
> direction.
> 
> Its the damned assumptions that "no one is doing anything" that have me
> so riled about this thread.
> 
> I AM DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.  And because I am, the next generation
> will have a stronger base to continue opposing the oppressors and
> ignorance.

I am open to suggestions.  What are you doing about it?  Is there any
way we could network?  I hope to convince my men's group to do
something, but I am not sure what yet.  Is there an organization of
Men Against Violence Against Women?  I think it would be good to have
some sort of pamphlet or something discussing men's issues surrounding
rape.  Ideally something that would let a man know what rape is,
before he went off and committed it.  

I don't think men realize how susceptable they are to this.  I have
spoken with both sides of a couple of rapes.  The woman obviously in a
lot of pain, and the man oblivious to the fact that something was
wrong!  One of the men I had known for a while, and knew he was
actually a pretty nice guy.  But apparently he thought "No" was a come
on or something.  I wonder how many other men out there have no idea
that they have raped.


> How dare you tread so lightly and dismiss the blood spilt to achieve the
> slim margins of liberation we have already.  Will you set at naught the
> grim lessons of "The Burning Times?"

Huh?  What?  I am lost here.  What does this have to do with Andrea
Dworkins speech, or men's need to address their own problem with rape. 

> The folks who have the courage and strength to post here are most likely
> to be the folks who have the courage and strength to do something in
> their lives beyond this net.
> 
> It was the folks in this exact newsgroup that gave me the example and
> courage to make the break with my cultural and personal past to step out
> of the "broom closet" and to proudly claim that "I am a pagan!"  To
> declare that I am no longer bound by the chains of the cultural
> religious institutions, with their guilt trips and mind-numbing
> conformity.
> 
> And them to come here and hear the same techniques turned around to
> enslave me yet again to some new icon?

What icon?  Where?  What?  How?  I am seriously lost here.  

Congrats on making it out of the broom closet.  


> Of course I am angry and defensive about it.  Especially because these
> accusations and vague generalities are being hurled against others in
> the direct denial of their inherent dignity and worth.
> 
> Oh I'm so sorry, I guess I'm being to radical here.  NOT!
> 
> I celebrate even these grim lessons, because I and my ancestors paid
> dearly for the right to do so.

I can tell you are all emotional, but it is difficult to understand
much else of what you are saying.  Sorry.  Perhaps you could be more
specific.
 

-- 
___________________________________________________________________________

Stephen R. Figgins           |  There was an old woman
kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   |  Who lived under the hill 
PO Box 1244                  |  And if she's not gone 
Lawrence, KS 66044	     |  She lives there still
___________________________________________________________________________
 
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