HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: s7356911@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (DYLYN)
Subject: Re: Braggot
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 22:58:00 GMT

In article <betel.716326819@camelot>, rec.crafts.brewing writes...
> 
>	I've heard of an alcoholic drink called braggot mentioned on
>the net once or twice, and recently ran across mention of it in the
>Mabinogi. Could anyone give a description of it, or possibly some
>recipes?
> 
>	I've set the replys to go to rec.crafts.brewing.
	Also spelled ``braggart'',  It is a mixture in equal parts of
mead and ale.  By mixture, I mean the honey and malt are mixed and
then fermented together.  Similar to pyment, which is a mixture of
mead and grape wine.  I've tasted a little of both and like them
almost as much as a good mead.

					M. Lugotorix,
 				(a.k.a., dylyn)
   			(a.a.k.a., daniel prosser)

>Robert Crawford 			betel@camelot.bradley.edu

    ``					''---John Cage, " 4'33'' "

_/\  /\ dylyn (aka, d prosser) == S7356911@UCSVAX.UCS.umass.edu  /\
   \/  \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/  \/~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Arrow number Three ...
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 19:50:19 GMT

  This one has a blunt target tip on it.

  Lots of thanks to all of you who have been so helpful in
explaining what was, upon first examination, potentially a
very ugly and discriminatory thing.

  I still think that it is a bad decision.

  The story is that banning the registration of pentacles
(pentagrams) was intended to tell mundania that SCA does not
officially sanction people and groups which use the pentagram
as their symbol -- because some of those groups are evil.

  Of course, SCA doesn't officially sanction any group, it's
just decided to officially state that it _DOESN'T_ sanction
groups which use pentagrams or fylolwhatevers.

  Yet there's no restriction on the non-registry display or use
of pentagrams.  That is, no stamp of approval or disapproval
to distinguish between the "GOOD" symbols and the "BAD" symbols
in actual use -- how are the mundanes supposed to know the
difference?

  How is the restriction intended to impress mundania?

  In what way is this restriction meaningful to the world
outside of SCA, and why did you place such a transparent
restriction on your own membership?

  Arguments of historical accuracy and the careful re-creation
of the genuine bigotries of your selected period aside, how does
a non-profit organization get away with officially censuring
the registration of a symbol which _DOES_ meet your requirements
of historical relevancy, and which is used prominently by the
Covenant of the Goddess, a federally-recognised faith?

  Back on the fence, firing less damaging arrows, but hopefully
with a little better aim ...

  Ciaran.

------------------------
Ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org                 Not an LM spokesbeing

  "... hey but I don't care cause sometimes I said sometimes I hear
    my voice and it's been HERE silent all these years" -- TORI AMOS
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Time period
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:27:47 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings all, from Angharad.  Aryk writes,

>I am sure I recall reading a Governing and Policy Decision in about 1985 in
>which the Directors allowed "visitors" from places which did not have sig-
>nificant contact with Europe, and from Europe after 1600.

Don't know -- lots of decisions have come down from the BoD.  According to
the currently available version of the Corporate Handbook, visitors from 
places with some (but not much) contact with Europe are OK, though they
should expect to be treated as visitors.  There is absolutely no mention
of anyone after 1600, and dress requirement (the only one we have, other
than paying the door fee) specifically states pre-17th C.

One of our problems is that so much of the theoretically-governing-decisions
of our group are not available in any written form.

Cheers,

Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Subject: The High King of Ireland's Coat of Arms
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:14:15 GMT

	I was in the National Heraldry Museum yesterday and took down the
current High King's coat of arms (O'Connor-Don). Thought people might
be interested:
		Argent, A Oak Tree eradicated, vert.

				Jo

_______________________________________________________________________________
Jo Grant			| "Love is blind, or so it seems, to make me
jaymin@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie	| offer you my dreams. But after all is said and
44 Bancroft Ave., Tallaght,	| done, a blind man's dreams are not much fun."
Dublin 24, IRELAND		| -- Horslips, "The Blind Can't Lead the Blind"
Xref: sparky rec.org.sca:12726 rec.arts.sf.written:11750
From: swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Accents (was Re: COVINGTON CROSS)
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:38:31 GMT
Reply-To: swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <4ebWUNW00WBKM1TYxz@andrew.cmu.edu> bt16+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bill Thomas) writes:
|
|Help me out a little here, you medieval historians, but in a show about
|14th century English knights, the majority of characters would have
|primarily spoken NORMAN FRENCH.

Nope, Norman French faded out somewhere around the time of Richard the
Lionhearted (plus or minus one king).  Somewhat later there was a French
revival, using late Middle French or early Modern French (but most
certainly Parisian, not Norman).  But I think the aristocratic revival
was *15th* century.

Thus, everyone would have been speaking Middle English, perhaps with
Parisien French being used at Royal Court or at big gala parties (for
the purpose of being 'in').

|The knights would have been the
|descendants of William the Conqueror's Norman cronies, who swarmed into
|England after Hastings, built castles to defend themselves against the
|general populace, and continued their marauding, horse-riding Norman
|ways.

Not by that late a date.  This was well after the French had forced
the English nobles to relinquish thier French lands.  They were,
by the 13th century, thoroughly English.

Besides, all of the English kings forbad nobles building castles without
a permit (which they only gave reluctantly).  It was only under King
Stephen that the king was too weak to enforce this law, so in 13th century
England there were few non-royal castles, and those were mostly in the
hands of the major barons.  A mere knight would hardly have one.

|Which brings us back to Robin Hood and Kevin Costner. In most Robin Hood
|legends, Robin is a member of the pre-William nobility (so his father
|would not have had a castle, by the way -- a Norman "innovation"), who
|became a sort of anti-Norman guerrilla. 

This is the romanticized interpretation now given to him.
But he was rather too late in time for that to be believable, since
the Norman nobility was already switching to English, and to English
customs at the earliest date suggested for Robin Hood.
[Actually, if you want to retain the current traditional date and locale
for Robin Hood the only likely personage was a minor *Norman* noble
named Robert de Burun, who had lands near Nottingham Forest, and who
'disappeared' for a few years about the right time.  But more likely
is that Robin Hood was a 14th/15th century highwayman in Yorkshire].

| NO WAY would the Sheriff of Nottingham
|have spoken anything other than French. 

More likely he would have spoken both.  French for dealing with the nobles,
and English for dealing with the royal bailiffs.


-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
From: mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Michael Squires)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Summary: Pennsic costs
Date: 15 Sep 92 03:15:44 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

In article <1992Sep14.185939.23670@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>
>Perhaps some of our past Pennsic staffers can list more.

The Pennsic budget (SCA) is public information; it ran about $2500 at
Pennsic XIV and was in the $30,000 range at Pennsic XX, if I remember
correctly.

The best guess about the costs is that many costs which used to be covered
by contributions are now covered out of the operating budget.  The items
covered have also increased, but that is clearly a major factor.  For
example, most of the radios used between Pennsic XIV and XIX were donated
and not purchased; since then they have been purchased.

I don't know about other people, but at Pennsic the autocrat or the marshallate
had to provide 2000 inspection stickers, specially printed to avoid forgery;
tape for the woods and field battles (the perimeter of the field battle site
was marked, the hazards in the woods battle site); whistles, staffs, tabards,
and Iron Key flags (the latter contributed, thank you); radios for the
marshallate; 4000 copies of the war rules for distribution at the troll
booth; 200 updated copies of the war rules for distribution to the marshallate;
and a lot of stuff that I've forgotten. (Oh yes, about 20 cans of spray paint
for marking weapons and rulers/tape measures for inspection points).

At the recent Border Raids with 250 fighters we had to do very little of this -
we could gather all the fighters together and discuss the rules, there were
no attempts to fake authorization cards or inspection stickers, etc.  That
was a lot more fun.
-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
From: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Date: 10 Sep 92 06:51:53 GMT
Reply-To: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Organization: Geology Department, University of California, Davis

Now, it is my belief that the line about bearing stones, charms,
or herbs of virtue was stricken from the ceremony during the reign
of Eric and Aricia, and the paragraph in question was rewritten to
parapharse the original intent.  Has it crept back into the new
ceremony?

Actually, I will fess up to the fact that it was removed and the
paragraph in question rewritten.  I was Banner at the time, so I
know...  There were complaints from certain corners that the line
came out as "bear no charm, stone or ERP of virtue..." at a distance,
a case of bad word word choice because the words didn't carry well
heraldically, even with the best of heralds.  Also, the history of
the inclusion of that line was that it was put into the ceremony to
shut Issac the Uncertain up, who was making a big deal out of barring
"real magic" from the lists (that paticular piece of history came
straight from the mouth of Duchess Verena, who was at the ceremony bashing
where we discussed this).  Since the likes of Issac were long gone, the
raison d'etre for that paticular wording had gane away too.  So we made
a small change, and rewrote the sentence.

At that same ceremony bashing, we also made a small change to the
"sacred text" of the coronation ceremony, in the oath that the knights
swear to the new king.  They used to swear to "treat chivalrously with
those of every degree."  They now swear to "treat with chivalry with
those of every degree."  The word "chivalrously" also received some
amount of complaint because many court heralds frequently mangled it
at the volume required for a coronation court.

I will certainly have my ears peeled at this next crown, to hear
the wording of the invocation of the lists.

Twcs, simple country pursuivant on the loose
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re:  Inspiration
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:17:40 GMT

In reading over the misives about being inspriation in the Lists and
be inspired in the Lists, I think I see a couple of points that got
overlooked.

There are differences among the Laurel Kingdoms.

In the West, if you're a member and you're an authorized fighter, it
is almost a given that you fight in the Crown Lists.  There are
exceptions--really good fighters who *don't* want to Sovreign (again).
Fighters who don't have anyone to fight for. . .  Any number of good
reasons.  But the fact remains, that we have *large* Crwon Lists.

I can well imagine that some fighter would ask Linda if he could fight
for her.  He'd have every intention of doing his absolute best to win,
too.  (Were I not very attached to my dear Lady Wife, I could imagine
wanting to fight for Countess Linda, for she has many sterling
quailities and was an excellent Queen.)

Angharad brought up the issue of the rather short reigns in the West.
I think her otherwise excellent points erred there.  From those I've
talked to, having short reigns makes being Royalty in the West easier,
not harder.  It's true there is less time to repair mistakes made
early in the reign, but we have an excellent Civil Service that does
it's best to prevent such mistakes.  Because the reigns are short,
there are more opportunities, and the stress appears to be less, we
have more Royalty that reign a second or third or . . .  time.

Given the various balancing factors that abound, I suspect the real
answer to Linda's question is--

	The seriousness you ought to accord to a request to be
	fought for varies in proportion to your assessment of 
	chance of the erstwhile Champion to win.

If you decline, all you have to do is decline--and you are a very
polite person and able to do so without leaving hard feelings behind.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pmw2c@csissun14.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Subject: Re: the same-sex and pentacles threads
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun14.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:01:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.213605.16489@news.cs.brandeis.edu>,
tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Sod the proles!") writes:

|> Several gentles have expressed the idea that the SCA, or themselves
as
|> individuals, should not be asked to "suffer" just to redress the
wrongs that
|> "society" inflicts on people like me for my differences. I disagree.

|> I feel that, in the names of courtesy and justice, I can expect
people who
|> are  not any of those things to fight for my rights just the same; I
do not
|> see how they can respect themselves otherwise.

For all things there is a time and a place.  In the real world I would
fight for you rights to be treated equally regardless of religion or
gender or sexual preference.  But not in the SCA.  The SCA is about
medieval recreation not the real world. Sure, the SCA isn't very
historically strict and has a long way to go, but it is what we strive
for.  When you see a rule in the SCA that doesn't mesh with your ideas
about real world rights, you become upset and demand that they be
changed to meet your expectations.  But your expectations don't make
sense in a medieval setting.

What if someone decided that the idea of Nobility and Kings did not mesh
with their beliefs, they want an egalitarian society with a President. 
The idea of a President doesn't make sense in the society, because it
isn't medieval.

Being King or Queen isn't a right, it's a privelage that has lots of
restrictions on it and is an extremely visible representation of
medieval culture.  To change it visibly to fit a very modern perspective
about right and wrong goes against the point of the society.  

It is true that we make comprimises for modern life, but this isn't a
comprimise that has to be made to keep the society working or to include
more people in the society.  Allowing same-sex consorts would be done
only to bring the society up to modern standards of morality while
sacrificing authenticity.

Conrad Hebestorm
Paul Wayner
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re:  Pennsic Security
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:26:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.211608.14784@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:

>Just something to take under consideration when thinking about hiring
>security for some or all of Pennsic . . .  Doing so implies that you
>think they'll supply some specified level of security.  Given the
>litigious nature of the US, are you sure you want to imply to *anyone*
>that anything is secure?

Having a Pennsic security department makes the same promise.  Having SCA
medics makes a promise of care.  Having professionals (bonded?) helps
distribute the risk.

I've said before (not here) that having SCA chirurgeons at Canadian events
was less useful than the common practice of having St. John's Ambulance
send an ambulance and a couple of ambulancemen/women.  The care is already
promised, why not have somebody else do the work--somebody who you can
penalise or write off if they screw up?

Aryk
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period of the Society (Re: Wicca and the SCA)
Date: 14 Sep 92 21:56:42 GMT


 JM> is part of the Society.  I've never heard anyone 
 JM> suggest that our period
 JM> goes as late as 1670.  
Well, if someone says that the "cutoff" date is 1650, then 1670 is a 
 logical "slop"-date.  Personally, I've always figured that 1600 was the 
 end-date, with 1650 as a "slop"-date.  The more I've learned, though, 
 the more I know that you *need* to know your subject to know what the 
 acceptable "slop"-date is.  For costuming, for example, I wouldn't 
 "slop" past 1610, and even then, never in an A&S contest.  In naming 
 practices, if it looks like the person might have been born pre-1600, 
 the name's acceptable even if the specific reference is post-1600. 
 (yes, Arval, I know that *you* know that example......)
    "Slop"-date:  a date that is accepted due to the probability that 
                  the item was known within the delimited period, but 
                  not recorded, or acceptable because nothing was 
                  changing.
Gwenllian CfM
  Steppes, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kalter@unh.edu
Subject: Re: A thought about Rialto - "Guru" FAQ list
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 07:29:16 GMT

   > > ..if we had moderators people could send questions to...
 SB> i'm agin' it.  It would restrict the free flow of info...

    The original poster had a nice idea, but had no word for it and had
the misfortune to pick a word that meant something he didn't mean.
The original post seemed NOT to be about blocking direct posts to the
list, but rather about squelching the usual series of messages like:
        "Does anybody out there know anything about (X)?"
        "No, but let me know what you find out."
        "duh, i thinx i heard somebody say once but i forget exactly"
        "Beats me, have you tried to...."
        "My friend could answer that in a second; I'll ask her this Friday"
..that leads up to the *really informative* message:
        "B.J. asked (X); I know the answer, and the answer is (...)!"

    Now, how is this going to happen?  By blocking access to the list? No.
By arm-twisting? No.  By sending NastyGrams? No.  By beefing up the
"off-topic police" thought control squad? No.  Simply by directing the
first message (voluntarily) to a particular person who is known to be
good at digging up answers, and has taken a vow to post all such answers
to the list.  
    How does the original inquirer know this person is well-informed
and good at digging up answers?  Because there is a periodic proclamation
which names all sages, wise women, and oracles.  Look Ye here.  These
are all the doors on which it profits a man to knock.  Ask elsewhere,
and Ye may come away wanting an answer, and addled, to boot.

    Such a list of Masters of Lore has the added advantage, that if I
see that someone knows a great muchness about something I fancy, I may
be moved to boldly ask for the cook's tour, where before I may have
stilled my tongue for lack of a name.  Shall we not do this??
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 02:34:30 GMT

In article <199209080025.AA12996@meryl.csd.uu.se> vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:
>Greetings from William de Corbie!
>
>Apropos my Prince of Thieves errors, Aryk Nusbacher writes>
> 
>>What's the point?  It's fiction!
> 
>I disagree. "Prince of Thieves" is fiction, not fantasy. When fiction
>is set in a known place at a known time in history, we have a right to
>expect the producers to make it historically consistent. 

The Oxford English Dictionary defines fiction and fantasy thusly;

Fiction, n., Invented idea or statement or narrative; literature describing
imaginary events and people; conventionally accepted falsehood.

Fantasy, n., imagination, esp. when extravagant; mental image, daydream; 
fanciful invention or composition, book or film etc. relating fanciful events.

They sound very similar to me.

>The fiction is in the story, not the environment thereof. Of course
>nobody expects an adventure movie to be 100% archeologically correct.

Then why pick nits?

>But if historic consistency is irrelevant, then Robin could have
>ridden a motorbike! Mistakes which are obviously due to indifference
>or sloppy research are not acceptable, especially when it would have
>been so EASY to do it right.

How do you know it was either indifference or sloppy research, and how do
you know it would have been easier to do what you think is right?

>The truth is, I just thought it was a bad film, and I derive perverse
>pleasure from finding faults in it. That is the point... 

Then perhaps this subject would be better discussed in a forum for films.
I believe the subject has been exhausted here for some time.

In service,

Corun


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson