HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Queens by right of arms...
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1992 20:51:06

 LAH> (cho) I won't be meek, I won't be mild, and I will not be still!
 LAH>  I'll go boldly and high-minded and I'll gird my arms with skill;
 LAH>  let the tyrants and the faint of heart beware a woman's will!
 LAH>  is the song of Master Gwenllian Rhiannon.

 Vivat!  Well written and much enjoyed!  -- Vashti


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel)
Subject: Re: periodicity
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology - DSP
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:37:21 GMT

Defining <periodicity> with Webster-Dictionary.
--------------------------------
pe-ri-od-ic-i-ty \,pir-e-e-'dis-et-e\
(1833)
:the quality, state, or fact of being regularly recurrent
     or having periods 



I think you meant periodness.  Sorry to be annoying, but
the continual misuse of the word is apparently bothering
to some.  The last time I used it, I got 5 email messages
suggesting another word.  By the way, all of the messages
were cordial.  Anyway, unless you want an answer like
2pi, another word would be better.

-- 
     The comments and spelling herein are mine and nobody
                     else lays claim to them.
================================================================
Lonnie D. Harvel                 |  ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Patent of Arms / Order of Precedence question
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1992 20:32:47 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Steffan made some excellent observations of the inherent confusion of the
levels of armigery in our award system.  I agree with his analysis, but
disagree with his conclusion:

> We ought to recognize the fact that there's a fourth level of "arms"
> above patents. This would mean the "second track" would be
> non-armigerous, AoA, GoA, PoA, and [whatever former royalty gets].

There is a much simpler solution: Eliminate the "second track" entirely.
It is an invention of the SCA, has nothing to do with medieval history, and
has very little practical value.  The patent of arms, as we have seen in
recent discussion here, is meaningless.  The only times it is relevent is
when it is given in contravention of Corpora or is withheld for the sole
purpose of penalizing someone.  I don't see the point of designing
bitchiness into our systems.  The grant of arms is slightly more meaningful
in the ways it is used in some kingdom, but not much.  A kingdom can
arrange the precedence of its own awards any way it chooses, so the grant
of arms can only be meaningful when it is given on its own.  I understand
that some kingdoms make extensive use of the "naked grant", but I think the
benefits of simplification of the award system and elimination of a glaring
inauthenticity far outweigh the inconvenience caused those kingdoms.  We
should retain the award of arms as we have it now, but there should be one
and only one kind of armiger.


Dagonell asked:

> Where does someone with a Duchy/County/Vicounty rank WITHOUT a patent of
> arms rank on a Order of Precedence?  With the others of their rank?  Just
> below?  Where they were before?  Below all the patents of arms?

It varies by kingdom.  In the East, the royal peerage itself carries a
place on the OP above all other awards, and just below royalty and kingdom
officers; the patent of arms is irrelevent.

Tibor observed:

> I just checked EK law.  Except for a few special cases, where
> non-armigerous awards, or certain titles rank themselves in relevant
> precedence, or titles disclaim any precedence whatsoever, no order of
> precedence is listed!

The Eastern order of precedence is defined in (surprise!) the published
order of precedence, which is issued under the royal signature.


===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: klumppp@maple.circa.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: @Carleton Bardic Mailist
Date: 7 Nov 92 03:00:57 GMT
Reply-To: klumppp@maple.circa.ufl.edu
Organization: University of Florida - CIRCA

Elwyn of Thornbury asks about the @Carleton Bardic Mailist and while I connot
fully answer this good man's question, it is my hope to shed some light on 
the subject.  Having, until last year, been a student at Carleton (Baron's
College of Nordleigh, now The Shire of Nordleigh) I am unaware of any 
specific Bardic Mailist.  There is however, a hotbed of SCA activity at the
school and this MAY have changes since I was there.  The best way of finding
out would be to send a messenger (or E-Mail it may be faster) to Lady Larissa
out would be to send a messenger (or E-Mail it may be faster) to Lady
out would be to send a messenger (or E-Mail it may be faster) to Lady Larissa
(I hope that I have not spelled this wrong), or to LADENSOM@CARLETON.EDU
It is my hope that she will have more information for you.

May the sun shine on your house and all who dwell in it
Hrothgar of the Ladder (MKA Perrin Klumpp)
Newly of Trimaris
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mabr@sweden.hp.COM (Morgan the Dreamer Broman)
Subject: Shire awards
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 09:20:52 GMT


	Here in Nordmark almost the only way for people to get recognition
	is to travel.
	No matter how much good a person does for the S.C.A here in Sweden,
	if they do not travel they will not get recognized.
	For some reason the royalty in Drachenwald and a number of the Amer-
	icans seems to use this as a way to keep the award giving to a mini-
	mum. Now this is not true for all the Princes and Princesses we have
	had, and the situation has improved vastly over the last two years.

	But never forget...writing is a good thing...!! Letters of recommen-
	dation, even invitations.
	If you really want the royalty to come and visit have someone make
	up a nice invitation, maybe a scroll, to a local (published) event.
	Add a list of recommendations...it can do wonders...

	One who has been there...

--
HP   : Morgan "the Dreamer" Broman			mabr@sweden.hp.com
SCA  : Morgan deGrey
APD-I: Shade
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put
	together in a random fashion, to create eternity...

	[R] Shade
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: >swords...
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 19:58:24 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Nov4.211436.2657@nmt.edu> toad@nmt.edu (Tod Landis) writes:
>I have just one question about the "red-neck" incedent, why do only the 
>"red-necks" have guns? Granted this state(New Mexico) has some of the 
>lamest gun laws about, but a gun locked away in ones car seems reasonable. 
>
>Llywd Acres of St. Golias
>TOAD

I'm a Constable, not a Cop. I don't want to even *think* about
the problems we would have if our constabulary carried
firearms.

To a court, a staff is just a medieval affectation or a cane,
a sword can be as easily justified. The only reason for
a Glock would be to shoot a redneck with.

Seems like a remarkably bad idea.

I don't know if our local constables who are also mundane 
police officers carry at events...I suspect they do, based
on the fact that most police officers *do* carry a weapon
even off duty. 

Carolus --not Dirty Harry-- Malvoix
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA character (was: OOP dancing)
Date: 4 Nov 92 15:39:54 GMT


 "E> What surprises me is that there have been so few splinter groups.
 "E> There is the Kingdom of Acre, and the Markland Medieval Mercenary
 "E> Militia; perhaps they are splinter groups, I don t know. There is
 "E> the Renaissance Faire which seems to be more of a commercial enter-
 "E> prise. But apart from them, I know of no medieval/renaissance groups
 "E> in America.
 Oh, no.  There are probably quite a few splinter groups.  BUT......
 they're all pretty small.  I don't *think* the MMMM is an offshR:oot. 
Xd I've heard that we're actually a "splinter" from the RenFaires. 
 Personally, I consider the Live Gaming groups, and there are at least 
 2-3 of them, to be offshoots of the SCA.
    For instance, here in Dallas, we've got a pretty small splinter 
 group.  I don't know if you'd count the various groups that have live 
 steel combat to be splinters or not.  I *think* they are, on the same 
 basis that the LRPG groups are -- they saw what we do, but didn't care 
 for one or another of the aspects.N6M.
     That does differ from groups like the Kingdom of Acre and our local 
 group, Avalonia.  I know our local group was started because this one 
 moderately charismatic type decided he wasn't getting enough cookies. 
 Now, he says that it's because we're "not authentic enough", but...... 
 I've heard (rumors?) that the Kingdom of Acre, which was formed by 
 another disgruntled type, is fairly close to the SCA.  (But I don't 
 live in the East, so don't know.....)
     I suspect that most older areas may also have splinter groups.  
 Avalonia is actually the 2nd splinter group the Steppes has had.
         Gwenllian CfM

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Subject: Re: Perceptions of the SCA
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
Date:  9 Nov 92 21:26:54 GMT

Unto all on the Rialto, Greetings from Pedro de Alcazar!
Also, all due respect to M'lady Moreach.

>This has one problem, in that many of them are bound by their particular 
>subject, and have little time or inclination to do anything as broad as what 
>we attempt. We should *respect* them, and listen, but be aware that the man 
>studying 12thc military history will likely know almost nothing about what 
>12thc women did, or anything much at all about the 15thc. The strict level 
>of accuracy requires a certain sacrifice of other interests. This does *not* 
>mean the man is a cretin if he doesn't know what you do about 14thc 
>children's clothing, nor does it mean you are a genius because you know a 
>little about a lot of stuff.  :-)

	Well put. As an example, the previously mentioned Prof. Guzman
has more or less devoted his life to the study of the Mongols and
other barbarians; he knows a little from other time periods, but not
perfectly.

>And he'd be right. History is *miserably* taught in our public schools. I 
>can't count the number of local SCA folk who've admitted that they loathed 
>history until they hit the SCA. History taught with no humanizing context is 
>as dry and moldy as old bread to most people. It takes a certain mindset to 
>be able to appreciate it in its minutiae. Showing it can be *fun* can 
>nurture this in people who would otherwise scoff at history.

	Another well put point; I intend to take some of the verve and
life I found in the SCA and put into whatever history classes I'll be
TA'ing as I go through grad school-towards a degree in Renaissance
Studies or some similar degree.

>CL>  history types would froth at the fantasy types in our society (as, in
>CL>  fact, do I).

>tsk tsk.... Where do you expect to get your fresh blood if you condemn folk 
>before they've had a chance to learn better?

	I don't mind people starting out raw-I did, that's for
sure-but if they stick with the "fantasy" after they've been told
about better things (at least, given FORWARD INTO THE PAST to look
at), then they grate on me.

--
Craig Levin/Pedro de Alcazar, Illiton, MKdm moonman@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: gun toting rednecks
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 08:52:26 GMT

In article <92Nov03.144603.15640@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
>In article <9210311907.AA14995@math.bu.edu> jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) writes:

>Jeff, if I'm within 5-8 feet of my opponent, I'd rather have
>a mace or sword than *any* other weapon. no-one has *ever*
>built a more effective close combat weapon than the sword.

Depends on what kind of a firearm are you talking about. Pistol, yes,
but a normal redneck pisshead bully would be using a shotgun or a
hunting rifle, probably semi (or full) auto, which is 1) more powerful
and 2) more accurate than a pistol. And if the moron is a seasoned hunter,
it is very likely he points at you in a lethal spot (say head, stomach or
genitals. He is _extremely_ likely to hit you and drop you cold.

There is no better close-combat weapon than a sawed-off shotgun. It will
stop anyone from distances over one meter. Shooting someone with sawed-off
shotgun is like giving a live dynamite in his hand.

>In an ordinary combat engagement, assuming the ranges specified
>above, the guy with the gun *might* shoot one round, at which
>point he will be unseamed like a trout. Take a look at stats
>on hitting the target with one round in combat...Even police
>officers fire three times to ensure a hit, and they often miss.

They must then be extremely poor shots. I am a reserve officer (Lt.JG)
and I've done a lot of combat training with live ammo. Game is more
difficult to kill than people, and if the rednecks are hunters, as they
are likely to be, they are quite likely to make a third eye to you or just
your head into smithereens before you manage to say "Touche!" And, if he misses
, which is unlikely, he can always bar your swordstrike with his rifle, like 
we were trained to do in bayonet drill. Also a bullet hole is more likely to 
be lethal than a swordstrike.

>Now this is *not* to be construed as *advice*...It's just
>tactics.

Poor tactics. The best tactics are just to go away, ignoring the asshole.
Of course, I do not know whether shooting people is the normal way to
handle affairs in the Wild West, here in the Europe people are more civilized
and just mere toting anyone with gun will lead into a long term in a place
where a blacksmith has made the curtains; shooting anyone dead, even in self
defense, will lead into loooooooong imprisonment, likely for life.

But if exchanging shots is the normal way of handling things in the Wild West
and if one has a good excuse to slither away with the law, then why should
just the bullies only have guns ? Or crossbows, that is more period ?


  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: mundane name?
Summary: Sorry to waste bandwidth, personal mail bounced.
Keywords: Katherine Jade of Bayley
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:15:31 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Baroness Katherine Jade of Bayley
AEthemearc Minister of A&S
c/o Janet Bailey
5 Hidden Trails
Lancaster, NY 14086
1 (716) 885-0048
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Pirates of the Carribean Event - Dec 12 - Rhydderich Hael - Write for details.
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Filk vs. Recreation (was Re: out-of-period dancing)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1992 15:45:42

 ]E> William de Corbie here.
 ]E> people, but Keradwc wrote in response:

>How about The Twist? Polka? Charleston? Minuet? 
>All of these are pre-current
>dance forms; how do they differ from any other oop 
>dance form relative to
>the definitions/accepted goals/guidelines of the SCA?

 ]E> This is not fair. Clearly, Justinian was not advocating anything
 ]E> but period-looking dances, even though he did not explicitly say
 ]E> so. If there is a way to describe what contents of a dance that
 ]E> technically make it compatible with our period, I would be curious
 ]E> to know it. But I suspect that a certain level of expertise would
 ]E> be needed even to understand the description.
          Actually, no.  To be honest, these definitions *do* depend 
 on you knowing some SCA standards.  First, Hole in the Wall is post-
 period.  It's English Country, and I can't think of a step of it that 
 shows up in the earliest edition (some possibilty for error here....) 
 So, if someone is dancing something that resembles HitW, you may 
 trigger your post-period alarm.
     Another dead, dead giveaway is couples, holding hands over the 
 shoulders.  This is called Varsovienne position in (modern) ballroom 
 dance.  Every (SCA) dance that uses this position is post-period. 
 (side-note -- I was hoping to find some docs on when & where this 
 started, because it had to come from *somewhere*, but the book   
 I'm reading just states that it (Varsovienne) was introduced to 
 Scotland in the late, late 1700's.  Not a nibble of where it might 
 have originated.)
      Those are a couple of the indicators.  Period dance varies, but 
 those are a couple of variations that have no period examplars.
      Gwenllian Cwmystwyth ferch Morfudd

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill)
Subject: Re: I am still bewildered
Organization: University of Tasmania (Australia)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 05:12:16 GMT

In article <199211071828.AA15457@meryl.csd.uu.se>, vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:

> These thoughts came to me as I was reflecting on how Drachenwald could
> possibly become different, when it goes Kingdom. The most burning
> question is whether it is at all possible to mold Drachenwald into a
> more "European-style" group within the SCA. I fear that the cultural
> differences between America and Europe are greater than most SCAdians
> have realized -- and that ultimately, we may be headed for a split
> where Drachenwald forms a separate Corporation. I do not say this
> to be an alarmist, but the possibility is very real.
> 
> William

As an outsider who has had a lot of contact with both the SCA and other
re-enactment groups, including European ones, I find William's comments
very interesting. In the 'Outsider's View of the SCA' thread I started 
a few months ago, it was often said that high levels of authenticity
were not possible in a large, widespread historical reconstruction
organisation. I pointed to groups like the Norse Film and Pageant Society
and Regia Anglorum, which are very large, widespread, diverse in their
activities and VERY, VERY accurate. 

I was also interested to look through a photo album of snapshots from the
Pennsic before last. The costume and equipment I saw there left a *lot* to
be desired, but about three or four exceptions, later in the same album I
saw photos of some European shires of the SCA. There, the costumes etc were
much more accurate than the American ones. This set me thinking about why
there would be such a difference. It could be that the Europeans are somehow
'closer' to the history than people in the USA (or Australia). Alternatively,
it could be that contact with some of the extremely well organised and
highly accurate historical groups in Europe have raised the standard in the
SCA groups there. What do you scadians think? And do you think that William is
right about there being very little 'peer pressure' to be accurate?
Just curious,

Tim O'Neill
Tasmanian Devil
From: Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org (Terry Buyers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: hello from horde moritu
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1992 00:15:38 -0500

Sheila Goodman writes:
 
 > From: sgg@tropel.gca.COM (Sheila Goodman)
 > Organization: The Internet
 >
 > Lonely mongol on shore of lake ontario new to e mail seeking
 > correspondence
 > vsteran of 13 Pensics . Please respond. signed, Lady Tora
 > Yome aka the
 > infamous Tigger.
 
 
There are still some of us old timers out there. Some old time mongols, 
even...
 
                        Taras Stephan Karanczay
 
                           aka  Helsgard
 
 
Disclaimer:
 
        Why? It's my system.
 


 * Origin: Schrodinger's Catbox(803)652-3760 PRNetSC SURVNet (1:3624/7.0)
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Shire of Wintermist, Caid--read if you are in or near this group
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:23:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: vela.1992Nov9.222306.2785
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized


  Greetings, and apologies to those who are not interested in this message;

  Recently Baron Richard Kendrick moved from my group (Hawkland Moor, Midrealm)
to the Shire of Wintermist in Caid.  Baron Richard is famed for his cheesecake,
and many people who have never met him have heard of his cheesecake.
  If you would happen to meet Baron Richard in the next few weeks, mention to
him that you have heard of his cheesecake.  I guarantee that his reaction will
be enjoyable, and that he will not be offended in any way.

		Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald
		Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
		Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
		atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		**Magnitudo Vocis**
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: I am still bewildered
Date: 8 Nov 92 19:46:41
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se
In-reply-to: dani@netcom.com's message of Sun, 8 Nov 1992 01:20:59 GMT

William here.

Dani wrote:

>(I will add that the non-coercive approach seems to work.  Members do
>come in at the t-tunic-and-plastic level and become interested in
>greater authenticity.  And, as we've read in recent posts on the Rialto,
>the highest standards of authenticity within the Society keep rising.)

This is my experience also, but only to a degree. Some people do
get interested, others remain as they are. For every soul we save,
there are two or three heathens who we do not reach; and these tend
to bunch together and support each other in their common refusal to
care for authenticity.

Also, it is still a matter of individual improvements, not group ones.

>I don't think you're describing a cultural difference.
>There are many Scadians in America who would also prefer a more authentic
>and less anarchic Society.

You say that I am not describing a cultural difference; I think this
indicates that you did not understand my posting fully. I did not say
that the difference is that Europeans are authenticity-types and
Americans are not. The most important differences are in other things,
and I remain convinced that there is a vast difference.

William
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca