HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: Death of Canada (Was: Death of America)
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: The Bates Motel
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:22:40 GMT

warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne) writes:
>Refering to a discussion in talk.politics.misc, our New York 
>correspondant, Gary L Dare, wrote parenthetically:
>> (it's not often one finds a Canadian and devout libertarian ...)
>
>Except on USENET, which is why I take all discussions in can.* and
>soc.culture.canada with a large grain of salt.  They certainly are
>not representative of the country that I know.

Yeah, but this guy is good.  He's not an apolitical young'un who never
saw a doctor or hospital up north that just got an EE/CS job down in
Silicon Valley and tries to rationalize his newfound libertarianism by
stupidly repeating ultraconservative propoganda about our "national
health service", or an undergrad sophomore hothead.  He writes well
and can hold your attention.

There's room for a diversity of opinions, and reading some of his
stuff is good for a reality check in this discussion about the Reform
Party.  Having been out of country, I had first confused them with the
Manitoba Reform which is actually that province's arm of the hysteric
xenophobic racist Confederation of Regions party.  While I find Reform
a little strong for my Red Tory, fiscal conservative/social liberal
beliefs, they are not much stronger than most liberal Republicans we
have in Manhattan and on Long Island, nor the right-wing rumps of the
French Gaullistes and the German Christian Democrats (the position
that Reformists held in our Conservative Party 'til they split off).
I don't even think that a mild conservative like John Paul Morrisson
can escape a chat with Charles without having socialist tendencies
being pointed out to him (but I don't mind; I'm proud (-; to be a 
socialist!).  Folks, there is a LOT of room beyond the Euro-Canadian
centre-right ...

The topic [Death of Canada (Was: Death of America)] has very wide
implications, that's why it started on Talk.politics.misc and it
should stay there.  It's a great reality check ...

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare
> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU 		Support NAFTA
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			 Eat Mexican  (El Teddy's ad)
From: mousseau@convex.cl.msu.edu (normand mousseau)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Territory (was Legalized Discrimination in Quebec)
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:00:36 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University, East Lansing

In article   writes:
>From: HGERBER@vm.ucs.UAlberta.CA (Hjalmar)
> Then, by all means, let Quebec separate - with ALL (and only) the
> land with which she entered confederation in 1867, as well as her
> accumulated per capita share of the (not insubstantial) national
> debt.
>

   Desole mais les Nations Unies (incluant le Canada) ont deja
cree un precedent en reconnaissant les frontieres internes de
la Yougoslavie comme valides lors de la secession de la Croatie,
la Slovenie et la Bosnie-Herzegovine.  Or ces frontieres avaient
ete creees de toutes pieces par Tito afin d'affaiblir la force
politique de la Serbie.  Donc le Quebec pourrait se separer
legalement avec ses frontieres actuelles.

> Soon reality will come home to roost; and economic (trade) realities
> will force her to become at least bilingual  -  and eventually,
> probably anglophone.  Do you think that Quebec's current standard
> of living and official (de facto) unilingualism will survive without
> all the coddling by Ottawa and the tolerance of long-suffering
> taxpayers from the "Anglo" provinces?
>
>Hjalmar
>-------

  Tout ceci est de la foutaise. Un pays officiellement francophone 
peut survivre et prosperer en Amerique du Nord.  N'oublions pas
que le francais est parle par un grand nombre d'invididus a travers
le monde et que la culture qui lui est associee se compare sans probleme
en qualite et quantite avec la culture de langue anglaise.

	Bien qu'il y ait presentement un net transfert d'argent pour les
paiment de la perequation d'Ottawa a Quebec, celui-ci a decru considerablement 
ces dernieres annees et le Quebec reussi malgre tout a survivre. 
L'independance creerait surement des problemes economiques a court
terme mais je ne crois pas que le long terme soit pire que la situation
que l'on connait aujourd'hui en tant que canadien.

		Normand
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,misc.talk.politics
From: regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 17:12:14 -0800
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <TODD.92Dec18123853@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp> todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp writes:
>
>In article <1gqlleINN4tn@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:


>>Do you think society should force her to?
>>Do you think that *your* feelings about *your* existance should have
>>dominence over hers?
>>Do you love your mother?  Would you have her enslaved for your sake?

>>It's a thought experiment.  You don't have to answer.

>I want to reply to this.

>Here is one person suggesting to another person that he/she should be
>dead, all humour aside.

Horseshit.  I asked you questions, and wrote that you don't even have to
answer.

WHERE in this exchange to you see a suggestion to another person that
he/she should be dead?

>Pregnancy is not slavery.

Sometimes not.

>Another thought experiment:
>You are a five-month old fetus..
>Just a thought experiment.  You don't have to answer.

Well, you didn't even manage to ask a question, but I'll return the
favor.  If my mother didn't want to carry me, I'd infinitely prefer
her to be able to make her choice than to carry me under duress. 

See, I happen to *respect* my mother as a person.

Adrienne Regard

Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:9494 talk.abortion:52345
From: smith@gramian.harvard.edu (Steven Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:58:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: gramian.SMITH.92Dec18105808
	<TODD.92Dec18123853@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp>
	<1992Dec18.055949.17517@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: Harvard Robotics Lab, Harvard University

margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:
> todd@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law) writes:
>
> >Pregnancy is not slavery.
> 
> Picking cotton is not slavery.  Unless, of course, you're given no
> choice in the matter.

It seems to me that unless a woman is inseminated by force, then she
does have much choice in the matter.  Do you indeed suggest that an
(undesirable) pregnancy achieved by ordinary intercourse is slavery?

Steven Smith
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: mousseau@paun02.pa.msu (Normand Mousseau)
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
Reply-To: mousseau@paun02.pa.msu (Normand Mousseau)
Organization: Michigan State University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 18:02:34 GMT


In article <9212111919.AA20569@deepthought.cs.utexas.edu>, PLAWS@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU writes:

|> >>And you, Please do not be so stupid! We were all immigrants at one time
|> >
|> >Sure my ancestors were, but 300 years ago, not 10 years ago.
|> >My ancestors did the hard job, settled the country, made the Quebec
|> >we know, and then come a hand of immigrants and decide we are wrong?
|> >
|> Yep.  And my ancestors had a cakewalk when they settled in Quebec in the
|> 1780s.  Oh, sorry, they weren't French, so they can't possibly be "real"
|> Quebecers...
|> 
|> How come it's called "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia but not in Quebec?
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> 
|> Peter Laws              |"The '90s are gonna make the '60s|   pcl@engr.uark.edu
|> n5uwy@ka5bml.ar.usa.noam| look like the '50s"--D. Hopper  |plaws@uafsysb.bitnet
|> 

	L'utilisation d'expressions aussi fortes qu' "ethnic cleansing"
ne doit se faire qu'avec prudence.  Sinon, on risque de lui oter toute 
l'horreur qui lui est associee en l'utilisant pour toutes sortes de
situations banales.  Il m'apparait evident que cette expression est 
tout a fait innapropriee dans le cas du Quebec et je demande des
des excuses de la part de M. Peter Laws pour une telle association
entre les actions du gouvernement du Quebec et ce qui se passe en
Bosnie.

	Que quelqu'un soit en desaccord avec certaines lois et politiques
au Quebec est acceptable, mais que l'on pousse les comparaisons avec
de telles horreurs est simplement preuve d'irresponsabilite.  Ce genre
de commentaires n'apporte rien a la discussion, presente une fausse
image du Quebec et banalise une expression qui ne devrait etre utilisee
que pour decrire certains actes bien definis.

	Normand Mousseau
	mousseau@paun02.pa.msu.edu 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,talk.abortion
From: todd@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Reply-To: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
Organization: Nagoya Institute of Technology, Nagoya ,Japan.
	<1992Dec16.211950.9531@advtech.uswest.com>
	<BzF17n.Bzw@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> <1gqlleINN4tn@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:38:59 GMT


In article <1gqlleINN4tn@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:


>Do you think society should force her to?
>Do you think that *your* feelings about *your* existance should have
>dominence over hers?
>Do you love your mother?  Would you have her enslaved for your sake?
>
>It's a thought experiment.  You don't have to answer.
>
>Adrienne Regard

I want to reply to this.

Here is one person suggesting to another person that he/she should be
dead, all humour aside.

Pregnancy is not slavery.


Another thought experiment:

You are a five-month old fetus.  You are semiconcious in the womb. 
You can hear voices outside.  One voice is saying 

"Maybe I'll get rid of it.  Afterall, it will affect my career
for a while, and worse, it might leave stretch marks, and I won't
look so good in a bikini.  Yes, that's what I'll do."

Sometime later, faint glimmers of light appear somewhere, you don't
know what it is, but it is scary.  You feel something hard and
metallic grabbing at you.  It pulls you.  You are sucked out into
a cold noisy place.  It is the whir of a sucking machine.  What
the hell's going on?  You are barely aware of things, but you
realize one thing: that you are dying, and you just barely got
started.  Pain fills your small body.  Your glimmer of consciousness
fades, and you are pulled into death.

Just a thought experiment.  You don't have to answer.


Todd Law
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nagoya Institute of Technology,
Itoh Laboratory,			"Be excellent to each other."
todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:19:50 GMT

> = todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp writes:
>> J H Woodyatt writes:

>>Good catch there, Mr. Law -- she almost got away with asserting the
>>radical notion that pregnant women have rights instead of simply
>>`convenience.'

>[serious part]
>Of course, pregnant women have rights, I really respect that, but
>so do the unborn. 

No, the unborn really have no rights.  You just want them to.  In fact,
your statement limits the rights you'd afford pregnant women to...exactly
what rights would you give them?

>Real justice would reflect a balance of both 
>individuals' rights. Abortion is about as one-sided as it gets.
>Adoption would be a pretty good balance, don't you think?

No.  Not unless you could whisk that pesky fetus from real womb to
artificial womb until birth.  You're ignoring the nine months that can
change a woman's life.  I.e., screw up career, screw up health, screw up
plans...

[...]
>Ever done it in a cave?  Ugh! Ugh!

Galen has, and sometimes with another person :).

-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Wacker the K"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: mbrownel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Mark Brownell)
Subject: RE: Quebec junk food (mae west rules!)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:50:33 GMT


 No way, Jose! The junk treat of choice in la belle province is the "Mae
 West". Hence the classic line...

 "Salut, Marcel! Pepsi - Mae West - bacon side by each - eggs open at
 the top!"

 The Joe Louis is the poorer cousin to this queen of sugar-junk. The
 Loon-Moon you refer to is a light brown half-circle filled with a
 strange white substance not found in nature. The Mae West "classique"
 and Joe Louis are full circles of dark chocolate, an unidentified red
 substance and cake. 

 Mark B.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de
Subject: Re: Moving to Canada
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:17:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.062243.28284@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA>, bross@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Brian J Ross) writes:
> myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:
> : In article <1992Dec20.010043.1@vxdesy.desy.de> godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de writes:
> : >What's so boring about it?  The people.
> 
> If so, the NRC shouldn't have fired you, no matter how unprofessional
> you undoubtedly are: Canada can always use boring people like yourself 
> to join our ranks.
> 

Like all Canadians, you find it very difficult to grasp even the simplest
of concepts, don't you.  I must have told you 5 times at least that I 
resigned from the NRC just after they extended my position by a further
two years.  Where I come from we don't call that "getting fired".  I
have also refered you in the past to a whole host of newspaper articles
about my resignation that appeared in the Canadian press in Feb/March 1987
as proof of my claims, but you will insist on sticking to your ideas in the
face of evidence to the contrary.  That's Canadian professionalism, I guess.

> : Come on, now. Don't generalize. Please, be specific.
> : Which group or category of people was boring, in your opinion?
> : Have you watched a Bare Naked Ladies (the band) in concert?
> : They certainly are not boring.
> 

I have never met an interesting Canadian.

> Michael, there's no point in debating with racists like Godfrey.
> (I'm just very annoyed that my newsreader cannot also kill followups.)
> 

I'm not a racist.


Laurence

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: chawley@andy.bgsu.edu (Chris Hawley)
Subject: Canadian Culture Shock?
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:11:56 GMT

I know I may be inviting flames by the dozens about American ignorance
of Canadian culture, but here goes:

I am an American journalism student with several years of experience
reporting in the U.S. and in Japan.  I recently applied for summer
internships at a number of newspapers in Ontario because my interest is
foreign correspondent work and I think the challenge of figuring out how
to do reporting with a new legal system, police system, governmental
system, etc. would be interesting.

Can anybody tell me some of the major cultural/social/workplace
differences I might encounter living and working in Canada?  I'd like to be
prepared.   Thank you for your help.

     -- Chris Hawley (chawley@andy.bgsu.edu)
        The BG News
        Bowling Green State University
        Bowling Green, Ohio

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: scooper6@mach1.wlu.ca (stephen cooper 9209 U)
Subject: Re: are gay marriages legal in Canada?
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 01:16:49 GMT
Keywords: gay marriages, legal

In article <1992Dec15.201441.21272@b15.ingr.com> dvr@doofus.b15.ingr.com writes:
>Hi All,
>
>The subject says it all.  Just curious!

That's currently under debate.  Not at the present time, but there is
currently a court challenge in the Ontario court in Ottawa where two gay men
want to marry.  They say that the restriction is unconstitutional and
violates their rights.

Steve

PS Can someone who reads this email me, because I suspect that none of my
postings are being actually distributed around the world and costing the net
hundreds, if not thousands of dollars.

-- 
Steve Cooper      |  Internet:  scooper6@mach1.wlu.ca
Waterloo, Ontario |  If you actually think I speak for Wilfrid Laurier
Canada!!          |  University, well... I don't even want to think about it.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: wheeler@super.org (Ferrell S. Wheeler)
Subject: Circus Elephants
Organization: Supercomputing Research Center (Bowie, MD)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:32:58 GMT

Circus Elephants

>From _Sanctuary_, November 1992, newsletter of the Performing
Animal Welfare Society, P.O. Box 849, Galt, CA  95632,
(916)393-3340.
 
 
   McCORQUODALE SAYS CIRCUSES DETRIMENTAL FOR ELEPHANTS
 
"It's a sad day for animals when groups professing to support
the right to 'use animals responsibly' consistently ignore the
imprisonment of circus animals," said Senator Dan McCorquodale
(D-Modesto).  "As Chair of the California Senate Committee on
Natural Resources and Wildlife, I have had a unique
opportunity to study animals, especially elephants, both in
the wild and in captivity.  Over the past five years, I've
seen the dark side of the exotic animal industry."  The
comments were made in response to the opening of the Ringling
Bros. and Barnum and Bailey Circus in Sacramento.
 
In 1988, Senator McCorquodale held landmark hearings on the
treatment of captive elephants.  The hearings resulted in
legislation (SB 842) which outlawed the electrocution and
beating of elephants in California.  The Senator followed in
1991 with a Bill (SB 318) which would mandate that all
elephants in the state be allowed release from their leg
chains for a minimum of 12 hours a day.  Although the bill
exempted Ringling Bros. Circus, the circus lobby defeated the
bill.
 
"If Ringling Bros. truly cared about elephants, they would not
have opposed legislation which would afford other elephants in
California freedom of movement," Senator McCorquodale stated.
 
"Basic containment of circus elephants has not changed in 122
years," said McCorquodale.  "I believe our youngest
generations will wonder why we allow the practice of chaining
elephants around the head and legs solely for our amusement
and profit.  How can a child see a herd of elephants bathing
in an African waterhole on the public broadcasting system and
then see elephants chained in boxcars at a Sacramento railroad
siding?"
 
Senator McCorquodale sees this as a common sense issue more
than an animal rights issue.
 
"We should have realized by now that the animals in the circus
are not ambassadors for their species, but rather sideshow
victims in an industry that probably doesn't need them
anyway," said McCorquodale.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: bross@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Brian J Ross)
Subject: Re: Moving to Canada
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Brock University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 06:22:43 GMT

myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:
: In article <1992Dec20.010043.1@vxdesy.desy.de> godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de writes:
: >What's so boring about it?  The people.

If so, the NRC shouldn't have fired you, no matter how unprofessional
you undoubtedly are: Canada can always use boring people like yourself 
to join our ranks.

: Come on, now. Don't generalize. Please, be specific.
: Which group or category of people was boring, in your opinion?
: Have you watched a Bare Naked Ladies (the band) in concert?
: They certainly are not boring.

Michael, there's no point in debating with racists like Godfrey.
(I'm just very annoyed that my newsreader cannot also kill followups.)

-- 
Brian Ross                          "Welcome to Canada." -- Twin Peaks Movie.
bross@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca            
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:23:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.195746.22035@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> HGERBER@vm.ucs.UAlberta.CA (Hjalmar) writes:
> Then, by all means, let Quebec separate - with ALL (and only) the
> land with which she entered confederation in 1867, as well as her
> accumulated per capita share of the (not insubstantial) national
> debt.

i don't know about the land issue, but the per capita debt better damn
well be included. there is absolutely no justification for it to be
otherwise.

> Soon reality will come home to roost; and economic (trade) realities
> will force her to become at least bilingual  -  and eventually,
> probably anglophone.

does anyone else out there find it strange that while the rest of
the world is uniting, quebec is trying to isolate itself? if quebec's
culture is "so vastly different from the rest of canada's" that it is
threatened by continued co-existence, what does that say about
quebec's intestinal fortitude compared with the european countries
which are joining together, and have a 1000-year history of *killing* each
other, never mind having disagreements?

even switzerland, which has been the global model of independence
for centuries, is now talking about joining the EEA. and there is
only one reason they are doing it.
do any quebecois out there actually think that isolationism will not
have a major cost? why not?

> Do you think that Quebec's current standard
> of living and official (de facto) unilingualism will survive without
> all the coddling by Ottawa and the tolerance of long-suffering
> taxpayers from the "Anglo" provinces?

i have always wondered about this. i would love to see a recent set
of numbers for quebec's total revenue input to the federal government
compared to total expenditure output from the federal government.
i'll bet the difference is negative. does anyone have the numbers?

--
charles
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics