From: mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Interview: Joseph Shabalala and the journey of dreams.
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:32:40 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

Interview from Tribute Magazine, January 1993

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JOSEPH SHABALALA AND THE JOURNEY OF DREAMS

Joseph Shabalala, leader of isicathamiya group Ladysmith Black Mambazo
for more than three decades, has been honoured by the music
establishment with his appointment as Visiting Professor in African
Music and Fellow of the Centre for Jazz and Popular Music at the
University of Natal.

Shabalala formed Ladysmith Black Mambazo in 1960, at the age of 20.
Says Shabalala: "I tried to teach the group music that I feel, but I
failed until 1964 when a dream came to me.  I always hear the harmony
from the dream and I said that this is the harmony I want."  The
groups recording career began in 1970, and while their great
international breakthrough with Paul Simon was a further 15 years
coming, the group was by then firmly established with several gold
disks to their credit and, as of now, over 27 albums on the market.
After years of touring world-wide and a 1988 Grammy Award for Shaka
Zulu as Best Traditional Folk Album, Shabalala's "Journey of Dreams"
(the title of Ladysmith Black Mambazo's 27th album) is far from over.
He spoke about his plans for researching and promoting traditional
music to DARIUS BRUBECK, Associate Professor in Jazz Studies and
Director of the Centre for Jazz and Popular Music.

Darius Brubeck: What are your goals now that you are part of this
university?

     Joseph Shabalala: My dream is to produce in-born gifts from the
     people.  I am referring to the people who are doing this type of
     (traditional) music.  I think it would be a good idea to do
     research and collect those people together, sit down with them,
     because they taught us from the beginning.

Are those people around?

     Not all of them, but I can find some of them.  there are many
     types of music in the region where I was born near Ladysmith,
     although some of the people are scattered now in Zululand.  In
     fact the music I sing, which is called isicathamiya is derived
     from isishemeni and amahubo which is the doxology, the hymns and
     wedding party music.  Now, I know a few of the people who are
     pioneers of that type of music.  I think it would be a very good
     idea to start with some research and talk with the old ladies,
     old men, our brothers, first of all encourage them, make them
     comfortable, and make them give us what they have.  I tape all
     those things with my small video camera so I can take it back and
     sit down and think out a programme of how to teach our people.

     Secondly, all those groups of people, of isicathamiya here in
     Durban - not only Durban but Natal, KwaZulu, Johannesburg - now
     those groups in fact were hungry for me to come and help them.
     Since the University of Natal appointed me as a Visiting
     professor here, that earned me more respect from those people.
     Now they say: "That university is our witness that Shabalala can
     help us..."

     We have a small office somewhere in town where we meet them, the
     (group) leaders, and we talk to them about how to use your voice,
     how to present your voice to the people.

     Then I demonstrate how to sing, how to lead the group, how to
     teach.

     I tell them where they are, but now they must move to this place,
     a better place to bring voices together, to blend.  When I was
     teaching them something came into my mind.  Let us sing together!
     Black Mambazo and all those different groups, maybe four groups,
     maybe five groups, maybe a choir of 60 or 70 people and sing
     those doxologies, those war songs, because I think those songs
     are the basics of music.

     There are many difficulties in organising because everything
     requires money and people live far apart.  So far I'm spending my
     own money on picking them up and taking them home late at night.
     Sometimes I am stopped by soldiers or police asking questions or
     wanting to search because of what is going on, but when they see
     the car they say: "Black Mambazo, oh, all right."

We've been talking about researching in the community of traditional
musicians or teaching people already active in isicathamiya.  Do you
have any plans for introducing courses to university students?

     I would like to teach the jazz people my isicathamiya.  I think
     they will do it very well.

What about the Colenso Ladysmith Black Mambazo Academy?  How does this
relate to your appointment at Natal University?

     We must have an Academy for indigenous music.  Not only for black
     people, but we must have a place where we can be proud of our
     indigenous music.

     That dream came to me when I was in America and I saw many
     schools and how they preserve their culture.  I was jealous of
     that.

     An academy will help us keep the music just as it is, because we,
     Black Mambazo, mix the music because we want to attract the
     people.  But I know that when we sing the music called ikheto, it
     must be ikheto exactly.  Not mixed with amahubo or isicathamiya.
     Professional people may take a little bit here, a little bit
     there.
     We need the place, small or big, to have a home for indigenous
     music.  There type of music is there: Colenso, Ladysmith,
     Vryheid, those parts where I grew up, where I climbed mountains,
     swam in the rivers... All the time when I go back home I feel
     this is the place of music.

How does the academy relate to the university in your overall plan?

     I hope that when a person finishes in the academy he will come to
     university to get a degree.

You were talking about the need for an academy to keep traditions pure
because there is a tendency for them to mix, but you were also talking
about how Ladysmith Black Mambazo mixes distinct types of music.

     A king must visit the academy once a year to make sure all the
     different types of music are not being mixed except by
     professional people, those who are touring.  They can mix it.
     But still they mus know exactly: this is jazz, this is African
     jazz, this is isicathamiya.  Mascanda and umgqashiya and
     umbhaqanga are mixed.  It is hard to tell the difference because
     they are mixed, but they are different.

How wide is African music?  Does it include music played on Western
instruments?

     Let me start with jazz.  Ikheto is African jazz.  It sounds like
     the old type of singing of our grandfathers and grandmothers.  It
     goes way back, way back.  But because of the instruments it is
     powerful compared to how it sounded at the time.  When you go to
     the old people in Zululand you find them singing jazz.  That is
     why I use a little bit of jazz in my music.

     I remember in 1972, I went to record at Gallo in Johannesburg.
     They played a little bit of Louis Armstrong and I said: "Yes this
     is music."  My guys were laughing at me because they don't
     understand.  But I said: "This is it."  I imitate a bit of what I
     heard from Louis Armstrong, but not because he did that.  This is
     something we did at home, when we were driving oxen.  Louis
     Armstrong was "driving the oxen".

     I thought "we must have that sound!"  I think jazz and amahubo
     are the basics of music.  That is in my mind: hymns and jazz.

We met at Montreaux (the annual jazz festival held in Montreaux,
Switzerland) in 1987.

     Ladysmith Black Mambazo have been there several times.  1987 was
     the first time, then 1989, 1991.

Do you feel Montreaux had any special importance in your career?

     To me it was very important, especially sitting around with
     Manhattan Transfer and talking about making songs.  They were
     jazz singers.  When people asked when I was coming back (to South
     Africa), I used to say I'm still at school, learning how other
     people sing and how they preserve their culture.  That's why I'm
     coming back.

What do you do when you're not touring?

     These days I'm doing research.  I've been to Bergville to sit
     down with the old people - and don't forget that I'm a pastor.
     That is my big job.

Have political organisations approached you to work for them?

     My language to preach.  Musical preaching is the same thing.  If
     you are a politician you are working with only one organisation,
     but a pastor or a musician is working with all people.  They way
     for them to work together is for them to promote the show.

Does it matter if they are ANC, IFP, PAC?

     Oh no, they are all my brothers and sisters.  Different names
     mean nothing to me.  They are all trying to help people.  I have
     my organisation, Ladysmith Black Mambazo, to help people.

Why is it important to keep culture and tradition alive?

     Tradition is a mirror where we see ourselves, who we are.  It's
     something like quarrelling (with someone) and going to your
     grandfather.  You will go together to him and he is the one who
     can say: "This is right, this is wrong, that's all!".  That is
     culture.  Once you discover that you are lost, you will come back
     to your culture.  You will find the right way.

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Joseph Shabalala was formally appointed Visiting Professor in African
Music and a Fellow for the Centre for Jazz and Popular Music in a
ceremony attended by about 2000 people on October 18 last year.  Hugh
Masekela and Darius Brubeck are Directors of the Centre for Jazz and
Popular Music, which is closely linked with the Department of Music,
also on the Durban campus of Natal University.  The Ladysmith Black
Mambazo "Academy" is still a dream, although land and some funds have
been donated.  The Centre will provide a base for Professor Shabalala
to work from while the Music Department will be providing advice on
curriculum development.  And, if after reading this interview, you
would like to help, please to so.  Donations to the Centre for Jazz
and Popular Music, the Ladysmith Black Mambazo Academy or the Ronnie
Madonsela Scholarship fund which assists needy music students, will be
gratefully accepted.  Please indicate which fund you wish to support
and send a cheque to:

                                                          The Director
                                     Centre for Jazz and Popular Music
                                                   University of Natal
                                                  King George V Avenue
                                                                Durban
                                                                  4001

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