HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Re: It's no Use (Was: Re: Challenging the Emir (LONG))
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 17:21:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.215139.14443@seas.gwu.edu> dsloan@seas.gwu.edu (David M. Sloan) writes:
>
>Before you make that assumptive statement, look at some recent numbers. In 
>1990, for the first year, more Palestinians died in the Intrafada (killings
>of Palestinians by other Palestinians) than due to clashes with Israeli 

First of all your numbers are leadingly selective :  in total more than one
thounsand were killed and ten times as much injured and disabled, while only
a few hundred "suspected agents" were killed..
Second, assuming you numbers are wrong:
How many Israeli agents are there in W-B? I would say that there are
no less than one thousand.. Suppose that 400 suspected agents were killed,
how many of them are innocent? That is the question!
If 100 of them are innocent, than only those should be counted (In my opinion
the number of innocent KILLED AS SUSPECTED COLLABORATORS NOT IN A PERSPONAL
DISPUTE OR BY REGULAR CRIMINALS should be close to 0% of the total.
From a probability point of view, what is relevent here:
Probability (being killed given that one is innocent)
This is equal to Prob (being killed by IDF given one is innocent) plus
Prob (being killed by Palestinian Intifadah Shabeb given that one is innocent)
I claim that the last part is very close to zero.

by Israelis
>soldiers. In 1991, 238 Intrafada lives were claimed, over triple the number
>of deathes by Israeli forces. This trendhas become so serious that both the
>PLO and Palestinians have expressed concern publicly. As illustration:
>(New York TImes, June 12, 1991)
>	"... When many Palestinians hear a knock on the door late at night, 
>they are relieved to find an Israeli soldier rather than a masked Palestinian."

Of course the quote should be said by a Palestinian Israeli agent..
From prbability also
Prob (being killed / given that one is an Israeli agent) = Prob (being killed
by Palestinian/ one is Israeli agent) + Prob (being killed by IDF / one is
an Israeli agent).. 
I again claim that the last part is negligible, hence your quote.

Other equations to keep in mind:
Prob (Being killed)= Prob (being killed/ innocent) Prob (innocent) +
Prob (being killed/ agent) Prob (agent).
Some numerical examples:(:-))
If there are 1 million Palestinians and 1000 agents among them:
suppose Prob (being killed/ agent)=0.5 (If that is the case, then the
Intifadhah would be very successful.)
Suppose  there are 1000 palestinians killed. One would expect 500 of them
to be agents (50% of the number of agents), and 500 to be innocent (1000-
500). So Prob (killed/innocent)= 500/(1million-1000)=4.995%
 
Now suppose we have 550 Palestinians killed by Palestinians..
and 450 killed by IDF, while Prob(killed/agent) is still 0.5..

Exercise: What is the Prob (being killed by Palestinians/innocent)

Hint: it is very small.
>
>					Dave
>


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Litani River
Organization: Somewhere East or Somewhere West
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:42:38 GMT

In article <1dd618INNf5r@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
|> The Litani River and/or its water was on Zionist "wish lists" many
|> times this century.  However, I have never heard of real evidence
|> that Israel is currently diverting water from it, or ever did so
|> this decade.  I know that the UN investigated it but found nothing.
|> If anyone knows of more than mere accusations, they ought to say so.
|> 
|> Brendan.    
|> 
|> 

What is this? A perfect opportunity to vilify Israel - and it is not
seized. How strange.

Since when have we started letting facts get in the way of our views
and opinions?

Such postings are unacceptable. Please refrain from making them in the
future.

Harry.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: Sentencing in Jordan
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:24:36 GMT


In article <4353@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>From the Associated Press, November 11, 1992
>
>	2 Sentenced in Jordan for Sedition Roles
>
>AMMAN, Jordan -- A military court sentenced two Islamic lawmakers to
>20 years at hard labor yesterday for belonging to an underground,
>Iranian-backed group that allegedly seeks to overthrow King Hussein.
>
>The conviction of Leith Shubeilat and Yaqoub Qarrash, who could have
>received the death penalty, was seen by some political activists as
>a setback for Hussein's efforts to introduce democratic reforms in
>his predominantly secular kingdom.
>
>However, others viewed the arrest of Shubeilat, a popular legislator
>and outspoken critic of official corruption, as a warning to Jordan's
>fundamentalists to steer clear of militancy or from trying to upset
>the political stability of the kingdom.
>
>Two shopkeepers also were convicted of belonging to Shabab Al-Nafeer
>Al-Islami, or Muslim Youth for Mobilization.  Each received 10 years
>at hard labor.
>
>Al-Nafeer allegedly seeks to replace the monarchy with an Iranian-
>styled Islamic republic and vehemently opposes the Arab-Israeli
>peace talks in which Jordan is participating.

Thanks God they failed. 

>
>EOF
>
>True democracy at its best - Middle East style:  convictions for
>belonging to a movement which *allegedly* sought the overthrow
>of a corrupt regime.  Typical measures by dictatorships to rid
>their political opponents/critics through imprisonment without
>formal charges. 
>
>Those who ever fear Islamic uprisings can rest knowing how
>well they are dealt with - just look at cycle:  Syria, Egypt,
>Algeria, Tunis, and of late, Bosnia.
>
>At least the peace talks will continue - despite how many
>people are silenced, imprisoned, expelled, or murdered ...
>

Can I assume from this that you are really not for peace between Israel and 
Jordan?

>Anisa

Naftaly

----

Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  Electronics Division    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            5101 Spine Road
Please excuse my English			    Boulder, CO 80301
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Re: Prerequisite to negociations II
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:26:38 CST

In article <1992Nov6.013347.15890@trl.oz.au>, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

		[...]

> Israel cannot afford to make peace with Syria and Lebanon for the following
> reasons:
> 
> 1. Had they made peace, they could not have become the 5th arms exporter.


	There's a story about two Jewish beggars, lamenting their
	poor condition:
	
	Beggar A: "If I were as rich as Rothchild, I would be 
		   richer than Rothchild!"

	Beggar B: "Huh? If you were as rich as Rothchild you'd be
		   exactly as rich as he is!"

	Beggar A: "No, In addition to having Rothchild's wealth I'll
		   also have this second job as a beggar, won't I?



	So, I guess, when peace comes, Israel will sell arms to Lebanon
	and Syria too, and might even become the 4th largest arms
	exporter!                


	Well, just a thought...

			[....]

> A.Faris 



Noam
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Date: 5 Nov 92 09:12:59 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

In article <1d9sckINN90o@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri) writes:
>
>Mr. Noam there is nothing worse than an ignorant, arrogant Zionist!

That's the dumbest quote of the day. How about turning it around and
saying:

Mr. Eyad, there is nothing worse than an illiterate, ignorant, arrogant,
nationalistic fanatic Arab!

Quotes like those do not promote dialogue and/or peace.

> Salam
Shalom,

>Eyad
Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not recieve this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: friedenb@birch.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Hezbollah kills UN Official
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:45:13 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@birch.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University


I heard on the news today that a fire fight broke out between the UN
onvoy in the security zone with Lebanon and Hezbollah militiamen.
One Kenyan (?) UN official was killed and many were wounded.

Anyone have any more info?

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hezbollah
Date: 8 Nov 92 08:59:27 GMT
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article <1dgq2lINN2r6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Mark Ira Kaufman writes:
>   The best way to shed some light on this terrible tragedy is to
>examine who knew what about this incident.
>   While I would agree that Ariel Sharon is a nasty man, I do not
>think that it is wise to make up stories to make him appear worse
>than he really is.

>   Did Sharon order this massacre to take place? 

No.

> Did Sharon know that it was going to take place?  

No.

>Could Sharon have anticipated a
>vicious attack such as this would happen?  

Strongly yes.

I'll add one of my own:
* When Sharon was repeatedly warned that a massacre was likely, what
  steps did he take to prevent it?

SFA.

>Did the attack involve even one single Israeli? 

Not directly, but the IDF kept the camps sealed off and 
provided illumination.

> Since there were no Israelis in the two
>camps, did Sharon know what was actually occuring in the camps at
>the time the attacks were happening?  

Yes, when they were about half over.

>The answer to each of these questions is no.  This is not speculation.  
>It is fact.  He never would have knowingly allowed such a thing to take place.  

The answers above are not mine.  They are conclusions of the Kahan
Commission, whose report I have in front of me.  Argue with them.

>While I am no fan of Sharon, I do not make up lies about those I oppose.

My personal opinion about Sharon is stronger than that of the 
Kahan Commission.  I think he should have wallowed in a cell somewhere
for the deliberate murder of Jordanian civilians in 1953.

Brendan.
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:55:47 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <Nov.9.13.07.57.1992.13984@caip.rutgers.edu> marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>This brings us to the question of "what is the real price of oil". The

There is no such thing as the "real price" other than what is paid per
barrel on delivery.  We can, if you'd like discuss the ideal price
from any of a number of points of view.  A more useful discussion
would be an examination of the market elasticity of factors that
contribute to supply or demand, thus effecting the price.  Those
factors include use of gasoline in automobiles, use of oils to
create plastics, profit motives from those who own oil supplies, the
cost of developing new oil feilds, etc.  Its a complex market, and
there are people who make a living trying to predict what changes in
technology (electric or solar cars, new plastics from other sources,
including recycling,) and price will do to the market.

An example of price having an impact on the market is the late 80's
colapse of prices, brought about by an oversupply of oil from Texas
and Lousiana, and leading to many of those Tezas and Louisiana fields
becoming unprofitable.

>gulf monarques tried to tell us that it was $8.0 then they told us it
>is $15 and now $20 ... In my opinion it should be no less that $50 ...
>which is what the oil prices jumped to at the beginning of the gulf
>war.

Actually, they did not, what jumped was futures, ie, the right to buy
a quantity of oil at a certain point in the future.  The sale price of
oil only rose to about $35 a barrel.  Futures were at about $50,
expecting a long, drawn out war in the Gulf, possibly cutting off
supplies of oil from the region.

>Saddam brought about many inconsistencies and mistakes but he made one
>thing right. He revieled the treatury of those fat bellied donkies in 
>the gulf that had the gutts to even talk about things like economy
>(though I know who tought them).

Great.  The fact is that in the West, maret forces determine the price
of oil, and all that the Gulf Sheiks can do is cut the supply.  If
they do that too much, oil fields in other areas can increase
production.  After that, the market will determine a fair price, not
your ideas of what is right.

Adam


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: READ MY LIPS, NO MORE BUSHIT
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 15:56:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov04.183157.2408876@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>Now that the killer of 1/2 million people is out, may be some
>starving/dieing children will have a better chance in Iraq,
>Lebanon, Bosnia, ...etc.  Two criminals are out: Gorby, and Bushit.

500,000 people killed in Iraq?
Like 10,000 in Sabra and Shattila...

Keep it coming, John.  The more you offer, the better it sounds.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:40:39 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.162949.16292@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> 
|> Do you have some inside information?  Perhaps that the Arabs have
|> decided that there's just so long they can stall before there's some
|> pressure to reciprocate with at least a few confidence building
|> measures, at which time they plan a confidence destroying measure?

I just heard yesterday the Israeli delegates have stormed out of a meeting
in Canada between the Arabs and Israel because they objected to the Palestinian
delegation presence. You lost this argument as usual.
|> 
|> >... Israel will annex
|> >south Lebanon. ...
|> 
|> Considering the fact that Israel has clearly stated it has no
|> territorial ambitions regarding Lebanon (even the right wing Likud
|> government said that!), this seems rather imaginative.

Did Israel state its ambitions of not annexing the Golan Heights and West bank
also?. You lost again.
|> 
|> >... Then 2/3 of the Israeli expansion goal beyond the borders of
|> >Palestine would have been realised. This leaves the east bank of the
|> Jordan >river for future conques
|> 
|> If you really believe this nonsense, perhaps you should try
|> encouraging the Arab states to start negotiating seriously.
|> -- 
|> Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org

They did negotiate seriously and honestly based on all the outstanding UN
resolutions against Israel. You lost for the third time, you should regroup
and come up with more propaganda.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 23:57:14 GMT

One interesting sidelight which nobody has mentioned:  In the Galilee,
where Ramya is located, both Arabs and Jews have been relocated by the
Israeli government, and more Jews have been forced to move than Arabs.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Date: 13 Nov 92 22:45:05 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Nov13.043900.12080@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
>
>	It seems you know less than I thought (if that was possible).

Manu, I suggest that you take this to email.  This is becoming more and
more redundant and abrasive to many people.  It has nothing to do with
talk.politics.mideast ... so put a CORK in it!!

>	Uh huh and you know what you're talking about.  

Like YOU really do!  The only thing you understand is how to effectively
flame and insult people.

Skout ya ajdab!!!
 
Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu)
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 03:42:50 GMT

In article <BxI3x4.86.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>
>If you're an engineer, you should have heard of Harvey Mudd, one of the Claremont
>Colleges (along w/ Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Scripps,....feel free to jump
>in, Geoff).

	Jump in?!?  I'm already in it, neck high.  In fact I'm trying to 
	climb out! :)


	Geoff


[Marwan and Anwar's  .sigs deleted]


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Date: 10 Nov 1992 07:14:40 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 25720@trl.oz.au, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
>In article <1dn0i5INNb29@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
 
>|> In article 18155@trl.oz.au, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
>|> >In article <1dk9h2INNnqm@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>|> >|>       MEQ #17.  Teveth on Ben-Gurion's vision of the future of Israel, 1937.
>|> [...]

>|> >Did Ben-Gurion have an idea of where the Jewish state's borders should be?.

>|> I don't have a clear idea of this.  I think it varied during his life,
>|> but I don't know of any instance where he called for an empire from the
>|> Nile to the Euphrates as a few Zionists did.  Certainly he wanted all
>|> of what was called Palestine in 1937 (now Israel+WB+Gaza) but probably
>|> also Lebanon up to the Litani, the Golan, and parts of Jordan. 

>Thus if the peace process comes to an end (which it will), Israel will annex
>south Lebanon. Then 2/3 of the Israeli expansion goal beyond the borders of 
>Palestine would have been realised. This leaves the east bank of the Jordan
>river for future conquest.

I don't think that follows.  Ben-Gurion is not the boss any more, nor is
Shamir (whose politics was closer to BG's than most people will admit;
this comment will get me flamed, ho ho :=).  One can speculate that 
permanent annexation of part of south Lebanon was one of the long-term 
aims of the 1982 war, but (a) there's no solid direct evidence of that, 
and (b) Israel now knows that nothing short of the most draconian measures 
could "pacify" the south to the extent where settlement was possible.
My bet is that annexation is not currently considered to be a realistic
option.  I just wish Israel would hurry up and realise that there is
only one option, and that is withdrawal from Lebanon.

>A.Faris

Brendan.
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Is Assad dead?
Date: 8 Nov 92 07:31:47 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

In article <5405@daily-planet.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>
>I heard a strange piece of "news" this morning from unreliable
>sources; That Assad is dead two to four days ago?
>Anybody heard this rumor..
>I hope it is not just some wishful thinking by the syrians (from
>where I got this information) This kind of thing happened to Brejniev
>many times before the real thing eventually happened.
>

Assad's death has been invoked many times in the past. About 7 years ago he
had not been seen in public for about two months and there was a lot of 
speculation. He finally reappeared on a silent tv news broadcast looking
very weak.

His brother Rifaat had been in exile in Switzerland for the last 8 years 
but was granted permission to return to Syria after their mother passed away.
He had to leave Syria after being the leader of a coup or plot to overthrow
Assad.
Everyone thought that he would go back to Switzerland after the 40 days of
mourning. Well from the press I've read this morning Rifaat is still in
Damascus  ... Maybe he has finally overthrown the "Lion"!     

>I heard The next in line is even worse than Assad anyway.
What is worse than worse ?


-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not recieve this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: How to destroy a population
Date: 6 Nov 1992 06:29:59 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article <dfs.720976414@crusher>, David Skoll writes:
>I just want to take issue with one point that Brendan makes:

>In <1d8bcpINNper@tyl.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>>Your first sentence is illogical.  It is easier to destroy a
>>dispersed (thus weak) population than a concentrated one.

>I don't agree.  It has been the policy of those wishing to destroy
>populations to concentrate them in ghettos first.  We saw this with
>the Nazis, and we see it now in Bosnia, as ethnic "cleansing"
>concentrates minorities in a few small centers.

I can't argue with your first example, and won't argue with the second.
However, there is an awfully big difference between concentrating a 
largely powerless (in military terms) population in a ghetto and enriching 
the population of a nation state with a proven army.

I really can't agree with Seth's idea that Iraq tried to weaken Israel
by allowing its Jews to leave.  (It did have plenty of other reasons,
though.)  Amongst other things, they didn't expect more than a few
tens of thousands to take the opportunity (general agreement between
sources).  One thing that nobody mentioned yet is that Iraq originally
proposed a 1-1 swap for displaced Palestinians, but this deal fell
through due to opposition from the Arab League and the Palestinian
leadership.  (Syria made an offer like that too; I forget the details.)

Brendan.
From: marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:24:31 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:

>	Actually, I don't go to either Claremont-McKenna or Pomona but
>	to Harvey Mudd, the science school of the 5 colleges.  If anyone
>	cares to look, you'll see that this school has been ranked the
>	#1 engineering school in the US by US News and World Report.  
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I do not know how the US News and World Report do their ratings, but
from what I know the MIT is the #1 school in Engineering.

>	However I made the orginal post to defend CMU which is a fine
>	university.

And CMU is rated much higher than your mud university.

>	Geoff