HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:53:50 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Sep02.131254.23869@brtph560.bnr.ca> psycho@brtpa25.bnr.ca (Paul Jezioranski) writes:
>> worse RBI men, the Orioles and Mariners, had RBI men who played much more
>> difficult defensive positions than first base at a cost of about 2 additional
>> RBIs.
>> -- 
>
>I won't argue the numbers but, as always, statistics are quite misleading:

As *always*? 
>
>	1) You indicate each performers RBI vs. RISP, but there's no 
>	   quantification of the pitching quality. How do I know that the
>	   avg. ERA of the pitchers Fielder faced in these situations wasn't
>	   a half point lower than those Canseco faced.

How do we know it's not a half point higher?  And it's not like we're talking
one or two players being better -- it's seven.  And if you start adding
run-scoring ability in with run-driving-in ability, the number is much larger
than seven.  And if you start adding in defensive ability, the number is
larger yet. 

>
>	2) You've got to be in the lineup to get RBIs. Fielder is in more often
>	   than Canseco.

But less often than Ripken.  And this season, Fielder's hardly been a model
of durability.
>
>	3) Maybe six teams had better RBI men than the Tigers, but they have 
>	   led the league in runs scored the past two or three years. That's
>	   what really counts.
>

But that's as much because of Whitaker, Phillips, and Tettleton (all better
players than Fielder).  And the difference between Detroit's home stadium
and Oakland's -- Oakland scored more runs on the road last year than did
the Tigers.  As did Milwaukee and Texas.

It's winning games that counts -- and in terms of winning games, 
Fielder wasn't even the most valuable player on his team, much less the AL.
-- 
           .........................................................
          ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu | standard disclaimers
         the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
         here i sit looking for a warming smile in a house of cold wit
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Boggs Toronto bound?
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:21:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.141848.1@gallua.gallaudet.edu>, 11dmcvay@gallua.gallaudet.edu (Daniel T. McVay) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug26.120739.2125@merrimack.edu>, desmondw@merrimack.edu writes:
|> >     I was reading the local newspaper in Boston today and came across an
|> > article about Wade Boggs being frustrated with the Red Sox and says he
|> > doubts he will be returning next year. He is a free agent and wants a deal
|> > similar to Ripkens. The Sox have already told him no way. So I was thinking
|> > how great it would be if the Jays snatched him in the off season. They
|> > definately could use a good hitting 3rd baseman(Grubers lousy) and they
|> > REALLY need a lead off hitter which Boggs also does well. He is the perfect
|> > addition to the Jays lineup. Take a look:
|> 
|> In your dreams, kid. The Red Sox are not going to give up someone like Boggs
|> to any team within their division. And I'm saddened that Boggs would want a 
|> deal similiar to Ripken after all he's done the past few years. Boggs is
|> steadily declining and I expect no more peaking from him after all. But he's
|> still effective.

  I don't think it's far fetched at all. As a free agent, the Sox really
can't control where he goes once the Sox give up on signing him. And after
Spring Training when Boggs refused his 2-year deal at 4.5 Million per year - the
Sox pretty much gave up on him. But NO team is going to give Boggs what
Ripken just got - heck - nobody would think that Boggs is worth what Ripkin
is. So maybe Boggs will have to come back to the Sox, but whether the Sox
would still offer the deal that Boggs had rejected in Spring training
is still doubtfull. 

 
|> >                             1. Boggs (3rd base)

  Oh yeah - with all that speed Boggs is a teriffic lead-off batter!! ;-)

|> >                             2. Alomar(2nd base)

  I think Alomar belongs in the #1 spot with Boggs batting behind him.


|> >                             3. Carter(OF)
|> >                             4. Winfield(DH)
|> >                             5. Olerud (1st base)
|> >                             6. Maldanado (OF)
|> >                             7. White (OF)
|> >                             8. Borders(C)
|> >                             9. Lee (S)
|> >    This looks pretty unbeatable to me!
|> >                                                 Bill
|> > 
|> 
|> The bigger your dreams are, the harder they fall and hurt you. Sorry.

  Toronto has the bucks to sign Boggs, but I don't think even they would
be stupid enough to give him a Ripkin-like contract! Still - they may well
go higher than the Sox!


-Ron

|> 
|> 
|> -- 
|> Daniel Mcvay	11dmcvay@gallua.gallaudet.edu	11dmcvay@gallux.gallaudet.edu
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Concrete Shoes,Cyanide,TNT,Done Dirt Cheap,Neckties,Contracts,HIGH Voltage
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: CY, MVP, ROY
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:21:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.025852.725@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>, z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
|> >>Cy Young
|> >>1. Tom Glavine

  Only if he manages to win 20, which he may not do!! ;-)

|> >>MVP
|> >>1. Strong: Sheffield, McGriff
|> > 
|> > I've got to go with Sheffield here.  
|> 
|> 	He may also get Comeback Player of the Year (Doug Jones also has
|> a shot at CPotY). 

  Comeback Player - heck the guy is only 23 years old!

|> If Sheffield gets the Triple Crown, I don't see how he can't
|> get MVP (nobody named Dimaggio to hit in 50+ consecutive games and get the big
|> press...).
|> 

  Williams did NOT get the Triple the year DiMag hit in his 56 consecutive
  games. He did get the triple twice - one being the year AFTER DiMaggio's
  streak - '42.

-Ron


                                          
|> Brandon Cope
From: csquared@coos.dartmouth.edu (C Squared)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Meatball Reardon
Date: 31 Aug 92 01:51:41 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Originator: csquared@coos.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Aug31.011456.7521@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>Any rumours on who these two PTBNLs are?  Is there *any* chance that
>one of them is Keith Mitchell?  After all, the Braves already have
>Gant, Justice, and Sanders in the OF.  Do the Braves have any quality
>pitching prospects which they might have offered?  I hope Lou had/has
>the sense to take a real prospect rather than two nobodys...
>
Lou was on the Red Sox radio show after the game, and he evaded the question,
but he seemed to say that it was one pitcher and one everyday player, and
that they were "high up" in the Braves organization.

C Squared
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Meatball Reardon
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 01:14:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug30.235019.28640@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> csquared@coos.dartmouth.edu (C Squared) writes:
>
>The Red Sox traded Jeff Reardon to the Atlanta Braves for 2 Players to be
>named later (sorry Braves fans)

I kind of want to say "good riddance".  But that isn't entirely fair.
Reardon is really a nice guy...  He's just no longer a good pitcher.
I'm glad to have him off the team, but I wish him well.

Any rumours on who these two PTBNLs are?  Is there *any* chance that
one of them is Keith Mitchell?  After all, the Braves already have
Gant, Justice, and Sanders in the OF.  Do the Braves have any quality
pitching prospects which they might have offered?  I hope Lou had/has
the sense to take a real prospect rather than two nobodys...

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Clemens may not win his 4th CY, but he still rules!	tedward@cs.cornell.edu
From: alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: cone trade
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:34:02 GMT
Reply-To: alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

Last on ESPN, Cone stated that the five year contract was a figment of the Mets
imagination and expressed a desire to return to New York (the Yanks). The Mets
paniced and dumped Cone for a nice but not great player and the proverbial
player to be named later (a minor leaguer). The Mets could have signed Cone by
dumping some other over priced major leaguer where they ready replacements.
John Franco come to mind here, Anthony Young is ready to assume this role. Cone
wants to stay in New York and I believe would have signed with NYM. Further,
the uncertain status of Saberhagen and Gooden severly weakens the starting
pitching.


additionally, they should gotten have more for Cone. Derek Bell and Jeff Kent would
would have been a good trade. Once again, the Mets traded a premier player for
marginal gain. Echoes of Amos Otis for whomever and that great deal of Nolan
Ryan for Jim Fregosi abound.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.stanford.edu (Nelson Lu)
Subject: RC/27 for LFs
Organization: DSG, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 04:48:35 GMT

This is the only position thus far that I've seen a *huge* NL/AL discrepancy...

NATIONAL LEAGUE
Barry Bonds, Pittsburgh		10.06
Moises Alou, Montreal		6.02
Bip Roberts, Cincinnati		5.92
Bernard Gilkey, St. Louis	5.32
Ron Gant, Atlanta		4.78
Daryl Boston, New York		4.66
Eric Davis, Los Angeles		4.60
NL AVERAGE			4.54
Mariano Duncan, Philadelphia	4.48
Luis Gonzalez, Houston		4.46
Chris James, San Francisco	4.06
Derrick May, Chicago		4.05
Jerald Clark, San Diego		4.00
Kevin Bass, New York		3.69

AMERICAN LEAGUE
Rickey Henderson, Oakland	8.95
Brady Anderson, Baltimore	7.30
Shane Mack, Minnesota		7.19
Candy Maldonado, Toronto	6.49
Tim Raines, Chicago		6.16
Kevin Reimer, Texas		6.04
Kevin McReynolds, Kansas City	5.96
Mel Hall, New York		5.56
Kevin Mitchell, Seattle		5.49
AL AVERAGE			5.40
Luis Polonia, California	4.84
Dan Gladden, Detroit		4.84
Mo Vaughn, Milwaukee		3.61
Mark Carreon, Detroit		3.58

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:07:42 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Sep4.163712.8090@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes...
> 
>Did he?  did he lead the league (or come close) in percentage of runners
>driven in?  Top 20, sure -- that's what SLG does for you.  But others did
>as well.  See Elias.

I would definitely like to see that leaders list, especially for 1991 (I
didn't purchase Elias this year).

I have no disagreement with you on the statistical significance issues.  I 
do not see Cecil Fielder as a wise longterm investment (and he's already 
talking about "Cal Ripken-type contract numbers" with the Tigers' new
owner).  My only point is that the Cecil- and RBI-bashing is getting
somewhat tiresome, because the arguments largely aren't focusing on the
issue.  Basing the anti-Cecil/anti-RBI argument on his overall stats
misses the point, because his overall stats don't adequately explain his
RBI totals in the first place.  Statistical significance is another story,
but then again MVP awards and the like rarely have anything to do with
longterm statistical significance... 

How about 1992?  Any situational numbers yet (BB Weekly dumped the RISP 
numbers and other stuff for those wasteful positional breakdowns)?  A
previous post gave an opinion that Fielder is "choking" in runners-on
situations this year.  But once again, the RBI totals *seem* to be out of
whack relative to overall performance.  Sure, Phillips and Whitaker are
getting on a lot, but Gladden and Fryman aren't.  I'd be surprised if 
Fielder's not coming in at well above average in RBI conversion.

---
Glenn Waugaman
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com
---
From: twhite@mozart.amd.com (Tom White)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Boggs Toronto bound?
Date: 29 Aug 92 10:18:56 GMT
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

In article <1992Aug27.195247.18945@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard) writes:
>In a previous article, zelek@remus.rutgers.edu (Grey Wolf) says:
>>August 11th, Boggs is hitting around .236 AT Fenway and .307 on the road.
>>Know something?  Boggs usually hit around .305-.310 on the road and .340-.360
>>at Fenway.  Usually.  Know why the change?  The 500 club addition built onto
>>Fenway behind home plate two seasons ago.  
>>
>
>   This makes no sense to me.  Why does an addition to the stadium cause Boggs
>to hit a hundred points lower than he used to?  Did it affect him last season?

   It's been demonstrated on models that the new 600 Club that was
added to Fenway before the 1989 season has redirected the general 
wind currents through the park, such that fly balls, instead of carrying
and falling into or over the Monster, now drop faster, resulting in more
catches.  Boggs loves to hit toward the wall and this no doubt has
been hurting him.
   Other things have affected Boggs as well:  former Red Sox hitting
coach Walt Hriniak leaving for the White Sox after the 1988 season;
the entire Margo Adams scandal during the 1989 season;  getting older
in general.  Boggs will never hit .350 again.  He may not hit .325 again.
He will manage .300 at least twice before he's through, but many things
have worked against him, and his one-time Fourth Best Batting Average
In History is becoming hard-pressed to stay in the top 20.
   Other things:  Boggs has been injured on occasion, and the loss
of Hriniak was compounded by the hirings of Richie "Useless" Hebner and
then Rick Burleson -- the man who wrecked Mark McGwire's power in 1991 --
as hitting coaches.  These guys are definite negatives.


--
 Thomas White          | Happy |  
 Austin, Texas         | Happy |  When you say words a lot 
 (with the ankle cast) |  Joy  |  they don't mean anything. 
 twhite@mozart.amd.com |  Joy! |                -- Del
From: mspede@atlas.nafb.trw.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Intangibles/Clubhouse Leadership.  Another perspective...
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:25:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: atlas.1238.2aa72b6d
Distribution: na

In article <16579@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Under The Gun Huckabay) writes:
> Team Leadership.
> 
> Interesting and ephemeral concept.  One of the reasons Canseco was
> traded away from the A's was likely because of clubhouse chemistry,
> and his perceived contribution to it.
> 
> When you think about it, this is an insulting idea.  I recently
> returned from playing a series of semi pro tournaments in three
> states.  In general, I am not considered a team leader.  I don't
> really hang out with the guys when we're not playing or practicing,
> and I pretty much keep to myself around the common areas.
> 

  I've also wondered about this (and so far haven't come to a conclusion).

  But here's another example. In our local softball league, we've got a group
  of guys who've played together for several years in the top rated league in 
  town (we usually end up in 2nd or 3rd, but that's another story).  

  A couple of seasons ago, we get a top-notch player, a guy who is (reportedly)
  listed in the SB mags as the nth best player in southern california. 

  He's a nice guy, everybody respects and likes the guy, But I think that our
  overall perfomance as a team has decreased.  Now the possibilities include...

    The Chemistry=Non-Factor Arguements :
     1) Independent of TNP (top-notch player), we're just getting older.
         (very likely, since the ave age is 32-33)
     2) The competition is getting better.  (I don't think so)

    The Chemistry=Factor Arguements :
     3) The team is slightly less aggressive, due to a slight tendency to let
        TNP do his stuff.
     4) The rest of the team is trying too hard, or at least altering (sub-
        consciously) our previously productive style. 
        
  I tend to belive #4, but maybe it's because I don't want to believe #1. :-)

  Comments ?
  Mark
From: roberto@oliveb.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Roberto Ricca)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: MLB Standings and Scores for Fri, Aug 28th, 1992
Date: 30 Aug 92 03:36:45 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <BtpIB6.8LM@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets) writes:

>By my accounting LA is just two losses from mathematical elimination.  They'd
>be the first to accomplish the feat.

Well, no. Right now (08/29 8.30 PM PDT) the tragic number for the Dodgers
is 12. For the Mariners is 10 or 9 (Mariners are still playing).

########################################################################
# Roberto Ricca                 Email:      roberto@oas.olivetti.com   #
# 816 So. Saratoga Ave #M304    Phone: Home (+1408) 983-2293           #
# San Jose, CA  95129  -  USA          Work (+1408) 366-3558           #
#----------------------------------------------------------------------#
#           1992:   GO GIANTS  (tragic number:   18)                   #
#           September 27, 1992:   the end of an era?                   #
########################################################################
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Heartwarming Jose Story
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:30:31 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <24643@oasys.dt.navy.mil> hambric@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Stephen Hambric) writes:
>I have two nephews who idolized (note past tense) Jose Canseco.  They
>live in Toronto, and every time I'd visit, they'd show me their latest
>Canseco baseball cards.  Last year, their Father took them to the Bay
>area on a trip, where they attended an A's game.  The kids were ecstatic
>about the chance to meet Jose.  Before the game, during warmups, Dad
>worked the kids around the stadium so that they were within 20 feet
>of their hero.  The oldest (about 10 at the time), adorned with an A's
>cap and Canseco T-shirt, called out "Mr. Canseco, could we please have
>your autograph?"  The reply:  "20 bucks and its yours."  I haven't heard
>my nephews mention Jose since.


Well you may want to consider that maybe a) he was joking, or b) he had
been having a bad day. As mentioned before, my sister stayed in Texas 
a few weeks back while the A's were there, and she stayed in the same
hotel as the A's players. The first night there, she got no sleep because
the whole night kids were roaming the hotel, floor by floor, knocking on
every door in hopes of finding an A's player to harass for an autograph.
Mild mannered Mark McGwire was heard screaming at kids that he "won't
sign any autographs outside of the ballpark so get the hell out of here"
to a group of kids who pounded on his door, and I for one agree with him.

Mys sister observed Canseco in the lobby signing autographs for 20  minutes
while he had only come down to pick up a newspaper, he finally left with
a huge crowd stillwaiting and no end in sight. 

Yes he may have been rude to your nephew, but it may have been just a
matter of bad timing.

Canseco is already well known in Texas, such as the time last year when
he was asked to sign autographs for a group of homeless kids and ended
up taking the whole group swimming and then bought them all lunch and 
ice cream. The guy has made some big mistakes, but he's also a hell of
guy when people let him be a human being instead of expecting superhuman
things from him.




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
The amount of time spent brushing and flossing your teeth is inversely
proportional to how recent your last dental appointment was.
********************************************************************************




Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bacarlso@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brad Carlson)
Subject: CUB'S MADDUX EASY CHOICE FOR CY
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 04:01:22 GMT

Any bozo who thinks that Tom Glavine is more deserving of the NL Cy Young
award than Greg Maddux must be smoking crack.  Maddux has an ERA of about 
2.10 after tonight's complete game shutout of the Dodgers, which is much
lower than Glavine's.  Additionally, Maddux has more strikeouts, complete
games, innings pitched, and has given up fewer hits.  And all of this has
been accomplished in a hitter's ballpark.  With the run support of a team
such as the Padres or Twins, Maddux could be 26-0, considering that in his
10 losses, the Cubs have scored only three runs total for him.  Morgan and 
Maddux together form the best 1-2 punch of any team in baseball. 
Incidentally, the Cubs have won 11 of their last 14 and IMHO will overtake
the Expos and Pirates for the NL East crown before season's end.
From: 34EX5PH@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (Michael S. Matusiewicz)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cubs: Maddux, REALLY hard loser
Date: 29 Aug 92 12:22:18 GMT
Organization: Central Michigan University

What a stupid idea, the CUBS offense on purpose blowing it so that
they can keep Maddux.  Jim L. "OK guys, Andre you go 0-4, Ryno you can
have one hit, Grace just get a couple of walks, etc."  What a
BONEHEAD idea.

matu
Xref: sparky rec.sport.baseball:26276 rec.sport.baseball.fantasy:649
From: SAD116@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,rec.sport.baseball.fantasy
Subject: Andrew Stankiewicz
Date: 2 Sep 92 02:44:24 GMT
Organization: Penn State University


    Hello,  appologize in advance if this is not the correct place to make this
request, but I am looking for recent Batting and fielding stats for Andy
Stankiewicz of the Yankees for a computer game of mine. Would someone have this
information available to send to me?
   As much information as possible would be helpful.
                                  I thank you in advance,
                                        Longshot