From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM ("", Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Enigmatic double citizenship in ESTONIA
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:53:57 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

> Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 09:55:00 GMT
> From: thietaniemi@CC.HELSINKI.FI
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> STILL, UPDATING THE DATA ON ESTONIAN
> DOUBLE CITIZENSHIP
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> >>- However, the refugee government of Rei (in Stockholm) that considered
> >>itself to have the mandate of the Estonian presidency, declared during the
> >>second world war, that the Estonian (citizen) refugees in exile can
> >>maintain the other citizenship they have got without losing the
> >>Estonian citizenship.
>
> >>- At the same time, it was declared that even the descendants of the
> >>refugees do have the citizenship (not just the right to it, as I
> >>mistakenly wrote before).
>
>
> When Stalin occupied Estonia, some Estonians MIGHT have escaped to Moscow
> or Magadan in Siberia. I[f] they appear in Estonian courts and
> insist to maintain the Soviet citizenship they got, they should win their
> case easily. :)  Citizenship of Russia (1991-) is of course, another matter.
> The point of emergence was, that there will be no new double citizenships
> any more.
>

Well, newly acquired Russian citizenships are probably another matter
(definitely will be, when Riigikogu will change the legislation) - but as
to Russian (1991-) citizenship which is the reestablishment of Soviet one -
there must be more caution adopted. The point which is valid here is double
in nature:

1. According to the Soviet laws, all Soviet citizens were holders of at least
   double, and in some cases triple (or more) citizenships. (In fact, pertinent
   legislation was not worked out carefully enough, and also there were minor
   differences in laws of different republics, but the general scheme is like
   following.) That is, Soviet citizenship, and citizenship of (at least one)
   republic in which they lived or (and) were born. [Of course, all subsequent
   considerations make sense only if we consider Soviet laws having legal value
   at all. My personal opinion is rather that they do not have it per se, but
   if they are confirmed (recognised, used and, accordingly, endorsed and
   therefore legalised) by subsequent legal entity (which current Russian
   Federation probably is - at least it is recognised by Estonia as such),
   they will acqure legal power even retroactively, for cases which are in
   current jurisdiction of confirming entity (e.g., Russian Federation).]

   All persons had automatically acquired citizenship of republic where their
   family had permanent legal residence at the moment of their birth. In
   some cases, citizenship of place of actual birth (if differ from mentioned
   before) may also be granted (that is, if actual temporary residence will
   subsequently transform to legal permanent one). Also, one may have right
   to citizenship of republic which their parent(s) were citizens at the moment
   of his birth. All these birthright citizenships were lifetime ones (not all
   x-Soviet republics recognize exactly these rules now, but for Russia it is
   probably the case. I've posted few more on the subject in response of Jarmo
   Ryyti's inquiry few days ago.)

2. Also, all Soviet citizens were automatically considered citizens of republic
   where they had legal permanent residence at the time. That citizenship was
   not permanent by nature, since it was considered rejected by person as soon
   as (s)he changed place of legal permanent residence. But, now these citizen-
   ships became permanent ones as well, particularly in Russia, after dissolu-
   tion of Soviet Union. In Russia, all former-Soviet citizens are still getting
   Russian citizenship automatically upon obtaining legal permanent residence
   in Russia.

The point which I was trying to make is that while Estonian legislators (or
whomever) may argue that contemporary Russian citizenship is different from
the Soviet one (which is indeed the case), in fact the _Russian_ citizenship
of Soviet times is recognized by modern Russia as _legally the same_ as current
one, and moreover, old Soviet citizenship may serve as sufficient condition
for acquiring the Russian one in some cases, so act of such acquiring should
not probably be considered as getting of new citizenship, but rather as of
mantaining the rights which were provided by old (Soviet) one. That is an
interpretation of Russian laws, I'm not saying it is binding for Estonian
legislation, but for practical matters it seems reasonable to hold to Russian
legislation in matters concerning Russian citizenship, even if any other legal
system is involved in the same case.

>
>
> > Well, if their descendants will still acquire automatically Estonian
> > citizenship, we will soon see plenty of them not only in Moscow, but
> > everywhere around the world.
>
> You are right indeed. It is absurd that some John Johnson in Phoenix, Arizona,
> who has the citizenship of Estonia,but does neither know a word of Estonian or
> Russian, nor is aware where Estonia is, can cast his ballot and decide whether
> Estonia should declare war against Finland or anything!
>
> But, for the legality of the first elections even his right to vote had
> to be guaranteed.

Yes, I surely agree with that.

>                   In reality, John Johnsons did not do much harm. They
> did not even know about the elections.

That's where I agree too.

>
> I'll bet 100 Estonian crowns that the Estonians will not allow John Johnson
> vote in the next elections!

Well, but it probably does not mean that John Johnson would be deprived of his
citizenship _which he already_ has? (And, without any specific actions from
his side??) It does not seem a legally valid approach, I'd guess. I'd rather
think that all who have the right to vote _now_, would hold it forever (and
also those who would have it now if they were aged enough), unless they will
explicitly give it up, but new acquisitions of 'John Johnson' citizens will
be stopped.

But, in fact, they might deprive him of right to vote, without stripping him
of citizenship (say, introduce residence requirements). That would be another
case than that which I discussed - but still in scope of 100 crowns bet!
So, let's wait...

Any way, your 100 crowns (~ $10, is it?) are alredy on stake. Would you like
to clarify your claim to make the win more likely? I hope 100 crowns would
worth more than $10 by next elections!


>
>
> Tapani
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A Finnish mini-lesson: "Tapani" is a name with Christian origin:
> Stefanus -> Stephen -> Steven (-> Istvan) -> Staffan -> Tapani.
                                    ^^^^^^
                                    Or, that name is an important one,
                                    for Hungarians!

In Russian: Stephanos --> Stepan (just almost like Tapani!).
[Is Tapani in fact Ta"pa"ni in Finnish?]

There was a number of memorable Stephans in Russian history;
one of the most honoured was Stephan Permskij of XVI century,
the baptiser and enlightener of Permians (Komi), relatives of
Finns (not so closed as Estonians though). He created the
original Permian alphabet and translated Gospels and worship books
into Permian. Unfortunately, his work was abandoned by Permians
in less than 100 years, and they switched to using Slavic language
in church services. As of now, only few fragments of texts written
in original Stephan's alphabet, in XVI and XVII centuries, have
been preserved till modern times. Books edition in Permian resumed
only in XIX century, when Gospels and other books were printed, using
Cyrillic graphics now. But Permians are still a large nation now, and
they have two republics within Russia: Komi Republic and Komi-Permian
Republic (or is the latter still an autonomous region, as it used to
be in Soviet times? - I'm not sure in it).


Dmitry
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:8283 soc.culture.soviet:8247