HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: joshua salter <jsalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Gamers who Dislike Games they Don't play...
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 02:54:15 GMT


	I play a large amount of games: board, war, miniature, card, psuedo-
sport (like ping-pong and darts...), role, claydonian (see Dragon#125, i 
believe), etc.
	(And yes, all manner of computer games, although I have not gotten
into MUDs very much; I believe that games involving REAL people should be
played in the immediate vicinity of those people with whom you are playing.
I know, this is rather long-winded for a (), but that's my style :)
	IMHO, variety is the spice of life: limiting yourself to one game
seems to me as a narrowing of horizons (to use a well worn cliche). 
Let this not be seen as an ember of adversity chucked at one-game players,
but at one-game playing SNOBS. If people dislike a game, they shouldn't play
it; but on the other hand, they shouldn't denounce it as a great evil either.
	(Please, no bullshit about "this is a free country so I can be an 
asshole if I want", ok?)
	Flamewars and "Game-Evaluations" are getting to be tedious, and are
more prevalent on this group than on any other I know. So in prevention of
yet another ill-mannered and/or ill-informed attack on "a stupid and child-
ish game which I gave up as a kid" I say this: 'only you can prevent news-
group fires'. Pax.

			"Cogito, Ergo Sum." -Descartes
			<I think, therefore I am.>
								-jsalter
From: std_fleming@hg.uleth.ca (John Fleming)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Real Sci-Fi Games
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:14:14 GMT
Reply-To: std_fleming@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge

In article <20vnync@lynx.unm.edu>, quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) writes:
>In article <BuFC47.1q0@acsu.buffalo.edu> v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE) writes:
>>In article <BuF9Dp.7x6@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly) writes...
>>>>v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE) writes:
>>>>      Eridani: Warriors dedicated to the perfection of the Self.
>>> 
>>>       Gee, sound familiar to anyone else?
>> 
>>	Yeah, it's a part of a name of a star system. So?
>
>Well, ask any veteran Trekk{ie,er,ist} what Vulcan's home star
>is...;-)
>
>>>Axly
>>
>>Bluerazor
>
>
>-- 
>Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
> I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
>                          what I have now...


   Hey!  Aren't "Orion Rogues" lifted from STAR TREK, too?


John Fleming                            EMAIL ADDRESS: STD_FLEMING@HG.ULETH.CA
Psych Major Extraordinaire
The University of Lethbridge            Typical quotes:
Lethbridge, Alberta,                    "Salve Iohannus, dominus machinae!" 
CANADA                                  "Veni, vidi, fugi."
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Date: 15 Sep 92 04:10:07 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Okay, here's the "combat test" for Legacy.  Weapons have a Penetration Damage
Value (PDV).  Projectiles have three severity ratings: Graze, Wound, and
Shatter, which modify the PDV of a hit (10%, 50% and 100% respectively).  I'll
offer the results for all three.

Damage is compared to a character's stamina attribute; I'll use a STA of 40
(high average).  Phases are 3.3 seconds.  Wound points <6 don't significantly
affect the area struck; 6-14 pts indicates some loss of functioning (slower,
and tasks are more difficult), 15+ indicates incapacitation (needs medical
attention to recover).  Bloodloss points are separate; losing 1/2 STA means
unconsciousness, and losing STA points means death.

> 1.      A medium caliber pistol hit (9mm or .45) to the unarmored head.

Assuming a range of a few meters and a hit to the Skull (other possibilities
are Eyes and Face), a 9mm Ginetti does 6/30/60 for results of: insignificant
effect/Stunned 4-40 phases and takes 1-10 wound points to the skull/Unconscious
4-40 minutes and takes 2-20 wound points to the skull.  Thus the effect varies
from no effect to unconscious with no recovery without surgery.  Hollow-point
rounds (x1.5 PDV) would change the middle result to "unconscious" and the last
one to "Killed".

> 2.      A medium caliber rifle bullet (7.62mm) to the unarmored torso.

I only have figures for an 8.5mm round; I'll use 150 PDV at 30m range.  That
does 15/75/150, for results of: insignificant effect/Bleeding 2 bloodloss
points per 10 seconds, and 1-10 wound points to the torso/Killed (unless
receives immediate medical attention in 3 minutes)

> 3.      A broadsword swung by an average person to the unprotected neck.

Hmmm, the manual doesn't cover broadswords (not a typical item in 2150 AD), but
I'll extrapolate from dagger and club, giving an Edged damage of 35, which
would give a PDV of 35-210 (depends on the attacker and defender rolls). That's
a minimum of 2-20 bloodloss points + 1-10 damage, and a very high probability
of amputating the head.

> 4.      And of course, a plasma cannon (equivalent to a RPG-7) to the groin.

Sorry, energy cannons are a very unusual item, not in regular use even for the
military.  An upcoming annex should deal with heavy weapons.  Of course,
considering what an ordinary rifle round does, I expect a result of something
like 6-60 wound points and 3-30 bloodloss points (and of course,
unconsciousness); the character could survive if the blast blew him onto an
operating table with a surgical team ready.  :)

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Time and judgement
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:48:11 GMT
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University

sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
>I just don't see the big deal. What is so hard to swallow about short 
>combats? Okay, so a fight takes 15 seconds of GURPS rounds, when in 
>reality it would have taken a full minute (even tho no one here really 
>knows how long a given fight would take). What is so horrible about that?
>I consider myself a reality MONGER and I can deal with it.

	There have been many things discussed in here that are not 
exactly 'big deals' - I recall a thread about impaling weapons which 
leaps to mind. 
	The question, in my mind, is 'What is the optimum time period for 
a combat round in RPG's?' As such, replies like 'It changes the system too 
much to make the rounds longer.' or 'The system is good enough, even though 
it is unrealistic.' are not very useful. Certainly some alterations (like 
adding more rolls and more variables to track) might do more harm than good, 
but I think improvement is possible. 

	Just as a poll, who does think that the usual frenzied pace of 
GURPS combats is something they would like to fix?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "Deservin's got nothing to do with it."
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |
Columbia University         |                - William Munny, 'Unforgiven'
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: urban@stout.atd.ucar.edu (Art Urban (PROFS))
Subject: Re: Time mechanics, healing and aiming
Organization: Atmospheric Technology Division/NCAR Boulder, CO
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 18:38:19 GMT

%playing GURPS.  (TL7) I'm aiming my gun at a target say, 200 yards away.  The
%round before I shoot, I get shot.  Let's say I've got good armor and the bullet
%does no damage.  Does the impact of a piece of metal traveling at 2000 feet per
%second and impacting me with 800 foot pounds of force even affect my aim? 
%Nope.  Thats just not real.
%Matt

Gimme a break! Why don't you just have the "aimer" make a Will roll at -3 to
see if he can keep his aim; sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't. Why is
everything so difficult with you??



--
Art Urban 					       urban@stout.atd.ucar.edu
===============================================================================
 "What's Next? Chasing bunnies on a motorbike until their hearts explode? -Crow
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: drew@snow.geology.wisc.edu (Drew Novick)
Subject: Re: Incomplete Posts (now I. C. E. supported systems)
Keywords: Champions, ICE, Hero
Organization: Dept. of Geology & Geophysics, University of Wisconsin - Madison
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 17:35:04 GMT

In article <BuHF4q.BJ3@acsu.buffalo.edu> v054nn84@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Foto...Taking pictures again, and Happy for it!) writes:
>In article <RATINOX.92Sep11210948@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>, ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu writes...
>> 
>>Both Battlelords and Cyber HERO showed up at my local hobby shop this
>>week. I bought Cyber HERO, but flipped through Battlelords. I found a
>>percentile system. I don't care for percentile systems, prefering a
>>more open ended setup (like Interlock, for example). 
>> 
>>---Rat
>
>Hmmmm... I am curious...you mention a more open ended setup than a percentile 
>system.  Are you refering to the I.C.E. systems?  This is gonna look stupid,
>but I am not sure who released the HERO system...isn'tthat the people who
>created Champions?
>
>Skekisis - I get lost easy these days....

Actually, for background, Champions and the HERO line are licensed by I. C.
E.  To be precise they didn't create Champions but license it from its
creators George McDonald, Steve Peterson, and Ray Greer.  At least that's
whom I think the creators are, I don't have my book with me.  I. C. E.
supports many systems such as RoleMaster (RM) or Hero or the Middle Earth
Role Playing System (MERPS) which use varying systems, some open ended and
some not.

Drew Novick -- Some of my work takes me to Antarctica.  Don't hold it
against me.
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Supplements for Multiple Systems
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:18:03 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Sep11.215349.23527@afterlife.ncsc.mil>, acadams@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur C. Adams) writes:
> A poster in r.a.f.dnd made the statement that he would have
> preferred GURPS Dark Sun to AD&D Dark Sun.
> 
> This made me think of a dream of mine.
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if, some day, role-playing supplements
> were released with stats for _all_ of the appropriate systems?
> 

	Or better yet, do what I do: convert the system yourself. I've
translated (in varying degrees) Torg, Traveller, AD&D Spelljammer, and
BattleTech to GURPS. I know of a basic effort of someone on GMAST-L a few
months ago to do the same thing with RTG Cyberpunk.

Brandon Cope
From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing rolemaster pc's
Date: 8 Sep 92 06:08:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <reynolds.715898446@judy.cs.iastate.edu>, reynolds@cs.iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) writes:
> Marijan_Madunic@panam.wimsey.bc.ca (Marijan Madunic) writes:
> 
> >I have a problem (guilty complex) about killing pc's. After all they do
> >spend a couple of hours creating these pc's. Can anybody help me in getting
> >over this problem.
> 
>     Most role-master characters risk their lives on a fairly regular
> basis, and they enjoy doing it. Players very quickly come to the
> realisation that if they can't die, they aren't risking their lives,
> and they may as well roll-play shopping for socks.

This is ignoring the real problem.  No matter how good you are,
some twerp can walk up to you, open-end his attack, then roll
high on his crit and kill you.  As a recent example, a character
got attacked by a squirrel while crossing a rope bridge.  The GM
rolled an 00 on the tiny-animal crit and killed him outright 
(this wasn't even taking the 100 foot fall into account).

Considering the huge amount of time required to create a RM
character, death should not be so arbitraty.

> 
>     Your players need you to be able to slaughter them if they do the
> wrong thing. There's nothing worse than a GM who lets you get yourself
> into a really bad situation and then bullshit your way out. Your
> players need to know, for example, if they hadn't made that grappnel
> cast on the first throw, the worm of death would have caught up with
> them and would very probably have slain them all.
> 

There is nothing worse than spending hours creating a new character
at the current campaign level, only to have him die pointlessly because
he failed some trivial dice roll.

The solution our GMs use is fate points (spend a fate point to
survive a lethal wound).  Considering that my character went
thru all four of his points in about 8 games, I consider something
like this essential for RM.  The only problem is that gives the
players a sense of invincibility ("So what, the worst that happens 
is that I lose a fate point"). 

-steve
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: bcd@fang.att.com (Brendan Dwyer)
Subject: Re: Why TW2000 eats wormy dog turds.
Organization: AT&T Tax Systems Development, Maitland FL
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:53:41 GMT

From article <1992Sep14.014855.16614@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, by ins769v@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (Veltyen):
>  In article <1992Sep13.060829.8129@fang.att.com> bcd@fang.att.com (Brendan Dwyer) writes:
> 
> Isn't the damage modified by range?
> 
> Been a while.
> 
> BTW a bullet in the head is not particularily lethal,
> its the bleeding afterwards.
> 
> -Veltyen
Agreed, but killing your average PC with a bullet in the head from a M1911
shouldn't be impossible.  I'd like the system to incorporate the potential
that the effects of the bullet would range from minor (graze) to severe
(brains on the wall) and varying degrees in between.  I found using a D10
instead of a D6 for damage helps.

Brendan Dwyer
From: v054nn84@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Foto...Taking pictures again, and Happy for it!)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Improv vs Prep and Dream Park
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:27:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Been spending some time reading through the Dream Park system (yeah, I bought 
a copy as soon as I saw it) and thinking back over some of the comments about
the merits/deficits of Improvisational refereeing as opposed to the merits/def-
icits of Pre-Prep refereeing, I started to wonder how a game like Dream Park
would be effected by either style, or mixture there of, for good or bad.  So
far it seems that the game favours the Pre-Prep school but then I have not read
a whole lot of the rules and because I have been very pressed for time have 
really just been skimming what I have been reading.  Any comments from any one
else looking over this game?

Skeksis
From: v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Date: 13 Sep 92 00:18:00 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <b!wn7dj@lynx.unm.edu>, quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) writes...
>Followups directed to r.g.f.advocacy...
> 
>In article <BuFGD3.4sz@acsu.buffalo.edu> v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep11.140011.102@gems.vcu.edu>, porterg@gems.vcu.edu writes...
>>>If the system is *much* more realistic than all others, I think a side by
>>>side comparison is in order, to convince the net.public of the truth.  Using
>>>examples we can all imagine, and hope to not personally experience.
>>> 
>>>1.      A medium caliber pistol hit (9mm or .45) to the unarmored head.
>>>2.      A medium caliber rifle bullet (7.62mm) to the unarmored torso.
>>>3.      A broadsword swung by an average person to the unprotected neck.
>>>4.      And of course, a plasma cannon (equivalent to a RPG-7) to the groin.
>>
>>	I am willing to describe the effects of all of the above in BL23. 
> 
>Um...we're waiting...
> 
	Ok, i am going to preface this with two comments. 
		1> i don't have the rules with me.
		2> The damage dealt out by a weapon is not a complete 
indication of the combat realism of a system. After all, what is the chance
to hit? At ranges? With a moving target? There are many variables in combat,
and damage done by a successful hit is only one of them.

	a>	A .45 caliber bullet hitting the head:
		A solid hit will inflict 7 points of damage. The average
	human will be knocked unconscious by this, in addition to a good
	chance of instant death. The bleeding due to the hit will be profuse
	and without quick medical attention the character will die.

	b> 	A 7.62mm round hitting the torso:
		A solid hit will do about 10 points of damage. This will 
	result in unconcsiousness, and a good chance of permanent injury
	such as paralyzation, or instant death. If the bullet impacts the 
	abdominal region, there is a high chance of internal poisoning.
	In any event, bleeding will be severe and death will ensue shortly
	without quick medical attention.

	c>	A broadsword hitting the neck:
		A solid hit will inflict 8 points of damage. Again the
	victim is unconscious and bleeding. It is even possible to remove the
	head (death) with a critical hit.

	d> 	A plasma cannon (RPG equivalent) to the groin:
		Well, if it's that powerful, It must be a Howitzer plasma
	cannon. This deals out 10-80 points of damage. You could be wearing
	a tank as a codpiece and still be killed instantly. If you're very
	lucky, there will be a few seconds to save you.

Bluerazor
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp,rec.games.frp.misc
From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar)
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-22665]: sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:26:32 GMT


	Ok, I'll take the challenge.  However, its going to have to be my
rules.  I've never seen BattleLords.  I have seen a couple of other systems
used for SF gaming.  Thus, since the designers of the game can't be objective
about it, I'll have to be the one to decide which system is better.  If you
will send me a copy of the game (postings about the game have not made it
sound like something I want to pay for) I'll compare its combat system to
Shadowrun, GURPS, Hero system, Twilight 2000 and anything else I can find.
If your game has a better combat system; I'll buy the game.  If no, you owe
me the $50.

	Your races don't sound cool to me and the descriptions of characters
and actions make it sound like a Mercenaries game not a true general SF game.
However, I'm willing to give you the benifit of the doubt.  Are you willing
to let anyone outside the design team give a testimony on your claims of
greatness?

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________
From: v054nn84@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Foto...Taking pictures again, and Happy for it!)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Posting
Date: 12 Sep 92 10:08:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Chadd VanZanten (?),

   Okay.  You know how to handle the VAx editor.  Good, fine, great, FANTASTIC!
Maybe you can answer a couple of questions I have...

Here is the setup...I am calling in from a remote site using Handshake V2.12a
(don't know when it was programmes but it works).  As fasr as I can tell by the
status lights I am running at full 9600 so I must have the dial strings right
(that is on my end and my problems).  I seem to have all of the macros to
log in correct (finally), BUT, I do not know how to access the mark block and
cut block functions of the editor and it is very tiresome to have to backspace
out lines and lines of text.  How do I get into the block features?  Bear in
mind that I do not have the PF1 through PF4 keys that are on some VAX terminals
(if it helps I am using an Amiga 1000 keyboard).  There are 4 unaccesable func-
tion keys but there was no documentation with the archive (PD/SW programme) so
I am unwillig to try those yet.  Any help you can give me on accessing the block
functions will be greatly appreciated.

Skeksis

P.S.  Oh, I posted here because I know I can get you here...once I learn more
      about the system I can start joining other news groups and post stuff
      like this where it belongs.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: cs125a89@eng-nxt05.cso.uiuc.edu (cs125 student)
Subject: Re: Why TW2000 eats wormy dog turds.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:25:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.001432.28739@Princeton.EDU>  
woodhams@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Michael Woodhams) writes:
> So a group of heavily armed men in a world of anarchy advance on a
> farmhouse containing one girl. She is armed. Well, in the sort of
> world I gather TW2000 is set in, how many unarmed farmers are there
> left?  Without saying "we just want to buy food" or "drop the grenade
> or you're history", they open fire with lethal intent on a 10 year old
> girl. I hope that next thing her younger sister drove a tank out
> through the barn door and vapourised you with a flamethrower. Anyone
> who shoots at 10 year-olds deserves what they get.

Get real. If children want to engage in combat, then the soldiers have to
react to them as combatants, no matter how distasteful it may be.  
Otherwise, they'll be scraping their buddies brains off the pavement, if
their buddies don't wind up doing that for them.
From: sl930@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gamers who Dislike Games they Don't play
Date: 5 Sep 92 22:29:52 MDT
Organization: Utah State University


Along the lines of this same subject, ten years ago I was a die hard AD&D
player.  To me, that was the only game out there.  Nothing else was any good,
and I never saw any reason to leave it.  I dismissed other games as copies
or take offs which I wouldn't touch. Then I finally had a friend convince me
to try another game, and I had a nice surprise.  There are *many* good games
out there, and some not so good ones.  But all of them in my opinion have
at least one fun and interesting thing about them.  

The point is that denouncing other games simply from bias towards a system you
like, or because you don't think it fits your gaming image would seem to be
a tragic loss of what could be a lot of fun.  

I do not play AD&D anymore, btw, quite simply because I personally have found 
games I like better.
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hostility in Gamers toward Certain Games
Date: 6 Sep 92 06:54:03 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:

I think a lot of the liking or disliking of games is based on knowing or not
knowing the people involved with them.  I mainly play rpgs, with occasional
board games.  I'm not interested in wargaming, but if I found myself in a group
of people I enjoyed being with, who were enjoying wargaming, I'd probably find
the experience enjoyable too.  If I watch a group of strangers playing a game
with rules I don't know (measuring distances between miniatures and arguing for
ten minutes about whether a hill gives +2 reaction points or whatever), I
probably won't be interested.

Of course, I do have a condescending attitude towards gaming styles different
from my own, which I think is natural.  If you like highly detailed games, you
may sneer at games with simple rules, and vice-versa.  I'm not sure if that's
what you mean by "hostility" towards games.

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca