From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Re: Irvine Clan Heraldry
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:42:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.033908.8355@reed.edu> odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin) writes:
>[I'll say this up front:  I have no idea how 'valid' the 'Clan' Irvine is.
> I *do* know it didn't exist before 1746 (and therefore 1782), so make of that
>  what you will.  This fact does not, however, affect anything that follows.]


>
>In article <BxKDox.DFM@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>>2.  If there are any persons of Clan Irvine on the net, I can get access to 
>>	a detailed Clan history published around 1890 (details who's who in the
>>	clan pre-1890, relations with Douglas, Stewart (and why we can 
>>	'rightfully' wear either tartan, but have none of our own, yet are a
>>	'real' clan and not a sept.)  Its kind of old, but if there is anyone
>>	that doesn't know, I may be able to look it up over the Holidays.
>>	If anyone knows of a more up-to-date family history, I would like to
>>	know, and where I can find it...
>
>  BE VERY CAREFUL.
>
>  Just because your last name is Irvine doesn't mean you're realated to Scots
>  Irvines.  If you are, that doesn't necessarily mean you're part of a Clan.
>  You may very well be, but find out first.

My family has record tracing the current generation (mine) back to Kentucky and
from there to the crossing in 1821 from Scotlan (1st source -- from a diary
kept of the trip, slightly before and after), then other documentation tracing
family back to the 1100's.  The 'clan book' is recently found (last 5 years), 
and duplicates much.  Aside from that, I don't know if I am of a clan, and
really don't care too much, except in the case where my family is concerned.
I posted the previous as 'bait' for anyone that may know something more that
I do not.  I don't really want to know if I am 'associated' with some people
I don't know personally - it does not matter to me that much.


>
>  Most of the "Clan" and "Sept" lists are pure and utter hog-swill, invented
>  in 1822 by a lot of greedy weavers who saw an opportunity in King George IV's
>  visit to Scotland to sell lots and lots of "official tartans" (which had
>  been proscribed from 1746 to ~1782, with much of the real info lost during
>  that time) to as many people as possible.  They drew up these lists to 
>  prove to the suddely eager buyers that if your last name was "White," you
>  were "entitled" to wear "MacLean" (or whatever), despite the fact that both
>  England and France had families named "White" with no connections to the 
>  Highlands what-so-ever.

Yes, it is, but according to my family history, the Irvine family did a lot
of guard-work and other sundry tasks for the DOuglases and Stewarts.  I know
the arms were granted in reward for successfully hiding Robert the Bruce from
English raiders that took him by suprise.  I do not know when, subsequently they
became an official 'clan.'  It would be nice to find out, but by no means 
absolutely necessary for my task at hand (family history - I am trying to fill
in the gaps and details not in the documents).

>  And then, of course, there's the erroneous perception that just because you
>  have Scottish ancestry, you are part of a Clan.  Wrong:  The Lowlands Scots
>  had nothing to do with the Clan structure (until it became fashionable, of
>  course).  Besides which:  The Clans were *FAMILIES*, a distinction that has
>  been muddied in the centuries since.  I am 1/4 Danish, with the blood of
>  Danish Kings in my veins.  That does NOT mean I'm part of a Danish Royal
>  Family.  Same difference.

So what.  I never claimed to be of it.  the only 'clan' I personally know or
care about is the one in America made up of my relatives.  

I do not appreciate your condescending tone of the post towards my simple
request.  I also would ask you to refrain second-guessing my motives and
placing words in my mouth.  If you have questions about my motives, ask, don't
assume.  I do not appreciate it.
(Especially when you ASSUME I know nothing about my family history, and that
I am some sort of 'dewey eyed tourist type' with hope in heart, a vaguely 
Scottish name, and a high degree of gullibility.)

-- 
+-------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Brent L. Irvine         |These opinions are the opinions of the majority of |
| irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu | space aliens currently in residence in the USA.   |
+-------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry,rec.org.sca