HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pat@cs.strath.ac.uk (Pat Prosser)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Pricing Kites
Date: 14 Aug 92 11:19:34 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dept., Strathclyde Univ., Glasgow, Scotland.
Originator: pat@kelvin-02

Pete Kuhn posted the following question

> I was wondering if you ever sell any of your kites, and if you do what
> would be the cost of a parafoil (3m x 2.5m) that you mentioned
> in your postting on rec.kites.
>
> Pete Kuhn

About 20% of the kites I build I give away, a few I keep (specials),
the rest I sell. Generally I sell at "material cost". It would be
impossible (may be I exaggerate) to sell the kites I build at a reasonable cost. 

Let me give you a "for instance". The parafoil that I have just finished is 
3m x 2.5m. The materials cost me about 100 quid (quid = pound sterling).
It took me more than 60 hours to build (may be even 100 hours). Lets
assume I want to work 40 hours a week, and earn 15,000 quid a year.
(not greedy), and take 4 weeks off. Thats about 8 quid an hour. So, I'd have to sell
that parafoil for about 600 quid. Maybe if you saw it you would say 
it was worth it, but generally a punter wont pay that money for
a (single line) kite.

If you look at catalog prices its about 3 or 4 quid a square foot for a parafoil. 
So, based on that mine's worth about 350 quid. Not a good way to make a 
living. The best bet would be to get somebody else to do the work and pay them
peanuts (for example, set up shop in Taiwan, just like NewTech).

Last year Andrea bought me a delta built by Dan Leigh, Voyager II, 2.57m x 1.65m.
Cost her 125 quid. Very few people would be able to see that this was 
worth it. In June I bought a Tako Tako from Kenny Knight, 150 quid. 
That looks like 300 quids worth to me.

I also build stunters, some of them quite large (14 feet tip2tip). 
Now punters are willing to pay over the score for a SWSK (swept
wing stunt kite). Why? Because they have been educated. And they
think it is worth it because it is loaded with technology and 
exotic materials. But again, the major cost is labour, and they are
willing to pay for it in the SWSK (and its generally easier
to build than a single liner).

Last month (2 weeks ago) I built a 1m Rok for Graham Shirlaw.
It took me about 2 hours to build the sail (including tea breaks,
shewing the cats away, etc). I then spent an additional 10 hours (thereabouts)
decorating it (Japanese flag with Chinese writing appliqued down one side
I won't tell you what it said :-).  Graham is a generous man, and he gave me 
25 quid. Clearly, I aint in it for the money.

So why do I do it? I can only fly so many kites. If I sell/give them away
to people that I know, I'll probably see them in the air. Someone else
is flying them for me.

Patrick
From: mds8539@tamuts.tamu.edu (Michael David Slater         )
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: Big Damn Kites
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:04:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: tamsun.1992Aug12.170434.28890
Organization: ~/lib/organization


Yes, actually we have made, and documented many hot air balloons, but I
didn't want to say anything lest people spew rubbish in response to it.

Yours sounds quite a bit more complex than anything we built. How could
you lift such heavy apparatii with it? (RC controls, etc)Your volume
does not sound sufficiently or significantly larger than ours.

Our kites
were basically incredibly large, incredibly light condoms with a small
burning wad of gasonline hanging below. Don't think they didn't fly well,
though.  But, figure they were 2ft diameter and 8-12 feet tall, and
they struggled to lift anything over a few ounces.  They were made of
very thin painter's drop cloth, and disposable pie pans, basically.
The greatest problem was that in the mildest wind the obscene shape
would try to topple over (once dropping a load of soaked, burning 
toilet paper 10 feet from a neighbor's roof.  We never dealt with a 
shape approximating a 'real-life' balloon because the plastic is except
-ionally difficult to work with.  


What was the fellow in Richmond's kite like?  What was his business?
From: puc@aber.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: Phantom vs Phantom Shadow (was: Kite Lines Survey!?!?!)
Date: 14 Aug 92 10:08:32 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

In article <13337@pogo.wv.tek.com> daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler) writes:
>Jeff Burka says of Phantoms:
>
>> I have heard _so_ many different explanations of the different Phantoms
>> and none of them are consistent.  
>
>Well, it would seem that Highfligher has been modifying their materials as
>Jeff and I definitely have different manuals for our Phantoms (mine is about a
>year old).  My Highflyer Phantom manual states that there are four models:
>
>	Phantom Standard and Custom
>	3 - 25 mph
>	
>	Phantom Shadow
>	2 - 20 mph
>
>	Phantom Pro
>	2 - 20 mph
>
>Please note the dramatically different wind ratings.  I went back to the kite
>shop that sold it to me (ie: "Paint the Sky" in Portland), and checked again;
>they have sold 3 specific types of Phantom at three different prices.  The
>Standard has 2200 rod and 6 panels (which, as it turns out, is what I
>originally bought).  The Custom has the same amount of Panels as the Shadow
>and has 2200 rod.  The Shadow has beaman rod.  The kite shop isn't sure what
>the heck a Pro is or what makes it different (BTW, they seem to be selling out
>of their Highflyers to be able to switch over to Tim Benson Phantoms). 


I'd like to add my 2p worth to this discussion. As I considered buying one
of the phantom models some time ago I contacted numerous shops for prices
and specs ( incidentaly, afterlooking at one I can't justify the cost and
plan to try and build my own.)
  As far as I can tell the pre-1992 highfliers range consisted of:

Shadow phantom           12 panel  2.5m span  Beman 5.5mm   2-20mp
(standard) phantom       10  "     2.45m          "         3-25


plus 3/4 bantams and 4-line options.


1992 range consists of the shadow phantom (with improved fittings)
with a sport(II). This is now framed in 5.9mm beman.
  The standard phantom has been dropped from the range. I gather 
there's a lawsuit from Benson over copyrights.

BTW the Benson phantom is framed in 5.5mm beman superlight  and has
10panels and in my opinion is the Rolls-Royce of large stunters.
So, it seems that the main confusion is the nomenclature,
ie USA standard equivalent to UK sport.


Sorry if this further clouds the issue.

Paul.

sport phantom             6  "      "          AFC          3-30


plus a 3/4 sized bantam and 4-line options.
From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: W.S.I.K.F.
Keywords: kite festival
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:12:22 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

Dave Walker asks:

>  The Washington State International Kite Festival starts this week,
> anyone planning on attending? This will the 5th year we have gone..great
> event, I believe it one of the biggest in the country.

I'll be there late in the week (Friday through Monday).

Michael Bain from Seattle also said he's going (sorry I didn't get back to
you Michael).  Anybody got an idea on how rec.kites readers could get
together?
  
				Later,

				Dave Butler

    Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: What more could you ask of life? 
    Aviation combined all the elements I loved...  I began to feel that I 
    lived on a higher plane than the skeptics of the ground; one that was 
    richer because of its very association with the elements of danger they 
    dreaded, because it was freer of the earth to which they were bound.  In 
    flying I tasted the wine of the gods of which they could know nothing... 
				Charles A. Lindbergh Jr.
From: sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: Big Damn Kites
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:12:18 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <10162@baird.cs.strath.ac.uk> pat@cs.strath.ac.uk (Pat Prosser) writes:
>Mmmmmm ... having read the Mad Hatta's comments regarding our
>child lifting, irresponsible behaviour, and that this activity
>should be left to "experienced" and "qualified" kite flyers.
>
>Got me thinking. As J. Hendrix said "Are you experiened?".
>And how do I get "qualified". Do you have to sit an exam
>over there in the US :-) Did Cody pass it?

OK. You've done it before. I'll assume successfully. It seems therefore that
you know what you're doing. In that case I would say that you're
"qualified" in this area.

Perhaps it's that the States is so litigation crazy that even if a
person knows about possible dangers involved in an activity and 
even goes so far as to sign a release, they still love to sue
anybody connected with the activity if something goes wrong. The
press also loves to get in on the act. A bad "experience"
could generate so much bad press as to set back kiting years.

It sounds that you where you are is far more reasonable. And I wish it 
were the same here. But its not.

 
-- 

The Mad Hata  

"Hey, Mon....Tako Kichi!"
Newsgroups: rec.kites
From: gaffer@ibmpcug.co.uk (Andrew Beattie)
Subject: Hot air balloons
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:18:07 GMT

In the back of one of the popular US mail order kite catalogues (catch
the wind? I can't remember), I saw a "Solar hot air balloon".
This thing is just a thin, black plastic bag.  All you do is inflate it
with air and seal it.  On a sunny day, the sun heats the air in the bag,
the bag expands slightly and rises.  No fuel, no RC, and very cheap.

Andrew
From: pat@cs.strath.ac.uk (Pat Prosser)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Bristol
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:27:24 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dept., Strathclyde Univ., Glasgow, Scotland.
Originator: pat@kelvin-02


                Who's going to Bristol?
Newsgroups: rec.kites
From: richard_chase.svmb@air25.larc.nasa.gov ( Chase)
Subject: Re: Big Damn Kites
Reply-To: richard_chase.svmb@air25.larc.nasa.gov ( Chase)
Organization: LaRC NASA 
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:15:02 GMT


The remote control receiver and the two servo's that I used were very light.  
Only a few ounces (got them from a remote control plane I crashed).  One 
servo for control of the valve for the glow plug to light the propane 
controlled by the propane valve(the other servo). The basket and bottles were 
the most weight. The envelope being around seven feet in diameter at its 
widest point was also oblong just like a real ballon.  I made the patterns 
out of paper and the material was sewn by someone else.

The guy in Richmond owns a drug store near Virginia Commenwealth University.  
His were similiar but his envelope was not as large.  He had only one control 
for the propane.
From: sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: Kite making
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:44:19 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug13.174306.23381@introl.introl.com> pete@introl.introl.com (Pete Ikusz) writes:
>>
>>There are books out there that have plans for stunt kites, but it seems
>>like most of the good ones aren't in English.  If you speak German, this
>>may not be a problem.  In fact, once you know what you're doing, you
>>could probably use the plans in a foreign language book...  
>
>Ok, some of us do know German but haven't heard of these books.
>Do you know where we could find them, or names of them, etc?
>
The KiteLines Bookstore (ie, their book service) should have them.
Schimmelphennig's book has a good reputation and while I've never 
used his sport kite book, I can attest to the quality of his plans
for single line kites. They're great.

By the way, I only had one year of conversational German in high school,
a long time ago now, but the drawings are excellent. In fact they are so
good, you really don't need to read the instructions all that much 
to successfully make a kite from the plans.  

-- 

The Mad Hata  

"Hey, Mon....Tako Kichi!"
From: sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: Buildinf Flexis?
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:59:47 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug11.154443.1096@midway.uchicago.edu> ar12@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>delta. Anyway, this has gotten me wondering about flexifoils- how difficult
>are they to construct and are there any plans/patterns available?


From what I understand, they are very difficult to build. If you're going
to try, start with a flow form or parafoil for practise.

>Also, has anyone heard of or know where I can get a copy of GeoKite or
>any other kite design software for either the Mac or PC?
>Thanks much,
>Andre

What is GeoKite? It sounds like a neat product. Does it facilitate
running computer simulations of flight characteristics? Or is 
it a drafting tool? Inquiring minds what to know. So, if you learn
of a source, please post it so we can all get a copy.

Thanks.

Steve


-- 

The Mad Hata  

"Hey, Mon....Tako Kichi!"
Newsgroups: rec.kites
From: bcb2@po.CWRU.Edu (Bryce C. Burba)
Subject: Re: Hot air balloons
Reply-To: bcb2@po.CWRU.Edu (Bryce C. Burba)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 00:03:35 GMT


In a previous article, gaffer@ibmpcug.co.uk (Andrew Beattie) says:

>In the back of one of the popular US mail order kite catalogues (catch
>the wind? I can't remember), I saw a "Solar hot air balloon".
>This thing is just a thin, black plastic bag.  All you do is inflate it
>with air and seal it.  On a sunny day, the sun heats the air in the bag,
>the bag expands slightly and rises.  No fuel, no RC, and very cheap.

Has anybody ever gotten one of those to work??  Any time I tried 'em, they
just blew around in whatever wind there was and eventually got ripped.  
Which is how I felt...ripped off.  Oh well. 
>

Newsgroups: rec.kites
From: richard_chase.svmb@air25.larc.nasa.gov ( Chase)
Subject: Re: Stacked Flexi's.... Yum!!!
Reply-To: richard_chase.svmb@air25.larc.nasa.gov (Chase)
Organization: Larc.Nasa 
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:38:35 GMT

I would be interested in reading that article about flexifoil kites you 
mention.  


Newsgroups: rec.kites
From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne)
Subject: Re: Alternate Frames on Hawaiians
Organisation: STACK Finland
Organization: Finnish Academic and Research Network Project - FUNET
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 07:44:44 GMT

In <86303@netnews.upenn.edu> tfarring@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Mr. A. Pemberton Trammel Snipe-Treadwater IV) writes:


>	I'm looking at a Hawaiian, mainly for the pull, but it would be nice if
>I could get one that could fly reasonably low winds (3-5 mph) as well as high 
>winds. Anyone have a Hawaiian with a frame other than the stock fiberglass one?
>What about the Easton A/C and the graphite frames? How do these fly?

SKQ Vol. 3 No. 4 has an article by David Lord: "Selecting
spars for a new kite design". According to David's measurements
you could replace ("standard" fiberglass) K75 with:

	AFC 2400
	Easton A/C 2-71
	Advantage 250/3
	Clearwater 250-3

an maintain the same stiffness with about 30% lighter spar.
Clearwater seems to be the lightest: 0.2054 oz/ft
(K75 = 0.3594 oz/ft).

I don't fly Hawaiian myself, but I have reframed other
kites.

Smooth Winds
Simo Salanne
STACK, Finland
From: pat@cs.strath.ac.uk (Pat Prosser)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: Big Damn Kites
Date: 14 Aug 92 10:10:45 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dept., Strathclyde Univ., Glasgow, Scotland.

Mmmmmm ... having read the Mad Hatta's comments regarding our
child lifting, irresponsible behaviour, and that this activity
should be left to "experienced" and "qualified" kite flyers.

Got me thinking. As J. Hendrix said "Are you experiened?".
And how do I get "qualified". Do you have to sit an exam
over there in the US :-) Did Cody pass it?
From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: Buildinf Flexis?
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:50:24 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park

In article <Bsv075.Bv2@ibmpcug.co.uk> gaffer@ibmpcug.co.uk (Andrew Beattie) writes:

>Building a flexi seems like jumping in a the deep end.  I know of no plans
>(the things are patented!)  A friend who did some repairs for me took a copy
>of the airifoil shape and reported that it was not the sort of shape that he
>would expect. 

A friend of mine had to do a repair right in the middle of the kite (all of
my flexi repairs have been on outside cells) and as such ended up pulling it
apart for several cells.  She said that what surprised her most was that the
cells seemed to be of different sizes, but only differing by tiny amounts
(in the 2mm range).

While I know of no published plan for the Flexi, Wolfgang Schimmelpfennig's
"Making and Flying Stunt Kites" (written in German...) includes the plans
for the Paraflex, a stunt kite that looks like a Flexi without the spar...

Jeff

-- 
|Jeffrey C. Burka                | "Show what you are / Be strong, be true  |
|                                |  Time for you to / Be who you are."      |
|jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu            |                         --Happy Rhodes   |
Newsgroups: rec.kites
From: sasaki@sasaki.zko.dec.com (Marty Sasaki)
Subject: Re: Big Damn Kites  
Reply-To: sasaki@tle.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Co.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:20:52 GMT


In article <1992Aug12.145354.20370@tamsun.tamu.edu>, mds8539@tamuts.tamu.edu (Michael David Slater         ) writes:
|>I didn't bother to read all of them, but a scan of the messages around
|>here showed that most of the discussion was on store-bought stunt
|>kites.  Has anyone built any heavy lift kites, of the style of Cody?
|>Our first 8x8x8 Military Lift Kite was a marvelous construction, but
|>since we had never flown anything before had adjusted the bridle
|>miserably, resulting in its demise.  Later models, with a better
|>bridle flew like the Thyrocees fleeing the gates Gretan. 

Two and four line stunt kites have revived the kite industry and these
kinds of kites are attractive to a large number of people. Many of the
postings are replys to questions about stunt kites. You shouldn't take
this to mean that single line queries are discouraged or that there
aren't single line kite makers out here.

I make single line kites when I get caught up with my stunt kite
orders. I've made quite a few rokkakus and box kites. I like the way
that facet kites fly as well as Peter Lynn Box kites.

Contrary to what people might think, a good flying single line kite is
more difficult to make than a stunt kite. With a stunt kite, small
variations in side to side symmetry can be compensated for by the
flyer. With a single line kite, if the the kite is crooked, it will
likely fly crooked.

In my workshop, I've got pieces for a large rokkaku (11.5 feet tall),
and a largish parafoil (3x15 feet).

I helped a local flyer set up and fly his 12x15 foot rectangular
Japanese kite (usually called an Edo).

|>As well, has anyone ever tried to build miniature hot air balloons.
|>Acquaitances and I have always debated the possibility.

One fun thing to do indoors is to take the plastic bags that dry
cleaned clothes are returned in and make balloons out of them. A bit
of stiff paper around the bottom edge to weight it down a bit and to
give it shape is all that is necessary to make a balloon.

Place the balloon over your body and your body heat should produce
enough hot air to cause the balloon to rise. Stand under the balloon
and as it comes down get under it, let your body heat fill it and
continue playing.

I got this idea from Bill Bigge. Be cautious of doing this around
small children, the danger of suffocation from the plastic is real.
--
Marty Sasaki                            sasaki@tle.enet.dec.com
Digital Equipment Co.                   Sasaki Kite Fabrications
110 Spit Brook Road ZK02-3/N30          26 Green Street
Nashua, NH 03062                        Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
603-881-0151                            617-522-8546
From: grusin@tramp.Colorado.EDU (GRUSIN MICHAEL)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: Peter Powell diamonds: an apologia
Date: 14 Aug 92 03:44:06 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

xrjdm@calvin.gsfc.nasa.gov writes:

> The only way to get thrilled over a cheap, simple, low-tech diamond
> is to get one for the very first time, go out, launch, and watch it
> climb into the sun like a stained-glass window with wings, trailing
> that snaky contrail of tail, and realizing that you *can* do this,
> and it's not really that hard, and feeling the wind holding your
> hands and laughing.  That did it for me.  

Me too! =)

> Still, it *is* a stunter, and you can still hurt someone with it.
> Even a Powell isn't harmless in a powerdive.

I can personally attest to this.  My first stunt-kite experience was
in the mid-70's with a Peter Powell diamond that I had gotten after
seeing an article about them in Popular Science (anyone remember that
one?  Peter was flying a train of them off the back of a ferry in NYC).
LOVED that kite.  Flew it whenever I could.  

I was 14, my family was at the beach, and I decided that it would be
fun to teach Mom how to fly it... I gave her some basic instructions,
turned over the handles, and went to launch the kite... up it goes,
makes a snappy U-turn, and comes STRAIGHT down on my head...

The blood streaming down my face ended our day at the beach real fast,
and against my protests we went to the emergency room to get some
stitches. (No real scar, but there IS a little bald spot...)
I guess she didn't understand that you STEER the kite with the lines,
and have to pull on BOTH of them to make it go straight...  The sail
was ripped beyond repair, so that kite was retired.  But a few years
later when I went to college I ordered a pair of them for flying with
a friend...  (I wish I still had them today).

> --- Joe M.  > > THE AUDIENCE IS NOW DEAF >

-Mike (grusin@tramp.colorado.edu)
"I'm surrounded by idiots of my own design" -Joel, MST3000
From: pat@cs.strath.ac.uk (Pat Prosser)
Newsgroups: rec.kites
Subject: Re: Big Damn Kites
Date: 13 Aug 92 10:03:43 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dept., Strathclyde Univ., Glasgow, Scotland.

In article <1992Aug12.145354.20370@tamsun.tamu.edu> mds8539@tamuts.tamu.edu (Michael David Slater         ) writes:
>I didn't bother to read all of them, but a scan of the messages around
>here showed that most of the discussion was on store-bought stunt
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>kites.  Has anyone built any heavy lift kites, of the style of Cody?
 ^^^^^
>Our first 8x8x8 Military Lift Kite was a marvelous construction, but
>since we had never flown anything before had adjusted the bridle
>miserably, resulting in its demise.  Later models, with a better
>bridle flew like the Thyrocees fleeing the gates Gretan. 
>
>
>As well, has anyone ever tried to build miniature hot air balloons.
>Acquaitances and I have always debated the possibility.
>
>michael, son of David.

A reasonable observation, and sad really. It appears that few if any are
interested in single line kites, and few if any are actually
building kites for their own pleasure. There are a number in our kite
club (Clyde Kites) that are heading towards the Cody, most notably
Iain McEachran. Iain has a fascination in box kites, and has recently
built a "Wind Jammer" and 2 large Tri-D box kites (Peter Lynn's 
design).  So, next up is the Cody I believe. 

I've just finished yet another parafoil (3m x 2.5m), and have yet to 
take it out and get it dirty (I think I've build more than 50 kites this 
year to date, most given away to the kids in the park).

I think that just now we have about 25 members in our club. 
Of those about 20% actively build kites (2 of us do this to
the exclusion of all else). About half of the members fly stunt kites,
but when we have a flying most kites in the air are single line.
There are obvious reasons why this is so (take up so much space).
One of the growing movements over here is Rokkaku fighting 
(I've build about 7 this year, 1m and 2m sizes). We also like
to do Teddy Jumps, and occasionaly we lift children. So, 
over here single line kites rule.

Patrick
Newsgroups: rec.kites