From: slarsen@mozart.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen)
Subject: Re: Men and Abortion
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:24:50 GMT

In article <Bx7IIF.4Lq@cs.psu.edu> beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>In article <1992Nov4.142327.27388@news.nd.edu> slarsen@berlin.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen) writes:
>>I can appreciate the agony of discovering that a trusted partner has 
>>betrayed the trust.
>[...]
>>People will continue to betray and be 
>>betrayed, regardless of how the laws are manipulated in an attempt to 
>>control human actions.  
>
>It seems as though you missed the point, which was not about the
>pain of betrayal but about whether a man can have "deeply felt agony" 
>over abortion, and whether saying it is not "misplaced and unwarranted" 
>is the same as sanctifying fetuses.
>
>Yes to the former, no to the latter.
>
>Do you accept men's emotions over losing wanted children by abortion 
>as valid and significant?  Comparable to the emotional pain of miscarriage?

I recognize the variety of emotional responses involved.  I can accept that 
men can experience emotional pain from abortion.  Comparable?  No, I won't 
say that, simply because I think it is unfair to use such scenarios in an 
attempt to show that one  response is somehow nobler or higher than another  
response.  I've known women who have walked through miscarriages and another who 
committed suicide over a miscarriage.  Which pain set would you wish me 
to compare to a man's pain set?  I knew a woman who was beaten up because 
she would not get an abortion, the wish of the father.  And as Will has 
pointed out, he, among many other men I'm sure, is experiencing great 
trauma because his SO did abort.  To recognize that these are emotionally 
charged issues is relevant, but to change the rules in response to these 
emotions is impossible because within the human condition are expressions 
of emotion which run all over the scale.  There is no way to satisfy all 
emotional responses here.

I don't think it is fair to characterize anyone's deeply felt agony as 
misplaced or unwarranted simply because the pain is not politically 
expedient.  I do think that it is fair, as a gesture of kindness and 
friendship, to suggest to anyone being deeply effected by an emotional 
state that they seek assistance from professionals to sort out those 
feelings.  

In my usually too-roundabout fashion, I am trying to show that legislation 
based on some arbitrary system of quantifying pain and emotional response 
is not going to be effective.  Pain and betrayal cannot be prevented by 
legislation.  Anger from such pain and betrayal can certainly be misplaced 
and this is why it is important to sort out that anger.  I do think that 
conjuring up new rules and laws in response to emotions *alone* is not 
good social or legal policy.

It seems to me that any system of father notification regarding pregnancy 
and intent to abort is doomed to run into all sorts of problems with 
respect to patient-doctor confidentiality, rights to procure medical 
treatment/procedures, the rights of marrieds vis-a-vis the rights of 
singles, etc.  Since there is no father involvement with fetal life 
except for the initial sex act, and since all the "investment" in the 
fetus is made by the mother, I can see no *logical* argument that a 
father, married or not, has a say-so in a woman's pregnant state. Yes, 
I've read the arguments in this thread and I remain unconvinced that 
fathers have any sort of legal right to notification of intent to abort.
I would say that if a woman values her relationship to the father and if 
she is a "good person" she will discuss it with the father, but legally, 
no.

Does this mean that men have no "right" to mourn?  Of course not.  They 
have every right to feel betrayed and to act on that---within the boundaries 
of the law.  Divorce her, walk out, take another lover, post to the net, 
get blindingly drunk, write sad songs, heck, lobby for father notification 
laws.  Expect that I will respect your legal expressions of that pain, but 
do not expect me to set aside my own systems of logic and beliefs to 
willingly embrace what I view as bad law.  If the injured father can touch 
my mind, as well as my heart, I would wholeheartedly agree with his mission.
My heart is touched, but my mind remains steadfast in the belief that a 
woman has the right to exercise her choices regarding her own body without 
being required to inform anyone of those choices.

Disclaimer:  My beliefs along these lines are confined to the state of 
pregnancy only.  A born child has, IMHO, a right to know her/his father. 
The father has a right to know his child(ren).  

I hope this clarifies a bit more the intent of my earlier posting.  It is 
so difficult to sort out the gray areas in this forum, you know.


Sue Larsen
slarsen@berlin.helios.nd.edu
Newsgroups: talk.abortion