From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Soul
Date: 5 Oct 92 05:04:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Oct3.165017.28034@hfsi.uucp> ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>In article <1992Oct3.144633.13616@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct2.213955.23389@hfsi.uucp> ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>> 
>>>The soul has a gift called free will.  It can choose to do things
>>>that are contrary to God.  Remember, because it is *like* God
>>>(i.e. have similar properties) this does not make it God.
>>>Therefore, there is no guarantee that all of its actions are what
>>>God would want that person to do.
>>
>>This is one point which I have been unable to resolve. That is, it is
>>said that god answers all prayers. Unless the answer is always 'no',
>>how can god answer prayers involving personal matters without infringing
>>upon the free-will of others? Or in larger matters, suppose one prays
>>that the niners win. Since there is no evidence that god affects the
>>physical world directly, the only way to affect the outcome of the
>>game would be to affect the players directly. In which case god must
>>be playing fast and loose with their free will.
>>
>>What gives? 
>
>This is all my personal belief:
>
>I strongly believe that God *never* enfringes on our free will. 

It seems to me that from Adam on, free will has not been too gods
taste. Did not the armies that stood before the Ark of the Covenant
perish? It is likely that without divine power, things would not always
go so well. And did not the ten commandments rather restrict the
excercise of free will?  It seems that the OT is full of god stepping
in and changing things, often in major ways. The god of the OT was
a vengeful god, was he not? Do what he says or perish. Free will?
Where?

>I believe that sometimes he makes ideas clearer (grace, for this
>discussion) to us but that we are always free to reject them. 

Grace n. 6a. Divine love and protection given to Mankind by God.
          b. A virtue granted by God.

I am also unclear on what grace is. My paperback Websters gives no
definition which pertains to making ideas clearer. But is a virtue
granted of the same value as a virtue learned?

>For example, if I know someone who has a problem stealing, then I
>might pray for that person.  Now God might enlighten that person
>so that they realizes that it is wrong to steal or help them if
>the stealing is compulsive so that they are able to overcome this
>behaviour, but *only* with the cooperation of their will.  If they
>are unwilling to stop and cooperate with the grace that has been
>given to them, then God will not infringe on their free will.

It seems to me that if god did this in answer to -your- prayer, then
his(her, its???) free will has been infringed upon. If it was a request
by the person with the problem, then it would not. 

>This is why it is never a good idea to judge anyone because we
>never have the full picture as to what grace that person had at
>the time.  Only God knows that and can make a determination as to
>how sinful a particular action actually is.

So then what judges do is wrong? If someone burgalizes my house, and
I catch them in the act, I will judge that they have done me wrong,
and I do not see how anything will change this. By this kind of
reasoning (if I understand what you are saying) Jeffrey Daumer (sp?)
should have been set free, given his upbringing, he could do nothing
else.
 
>As an aside, IMHO, I don't believe that God favors one sports team
>over another.  And why would any player want this?  

The fans, they would want this. Many have small wagers on the outcome
of the games. There are millions of fans.

>                                                 After all, if
>they knew that the only reason they won a particular game was
>because God bent the physical rules for them or made the opposing
>team play suboptimally, then where is the merit in winning the
>game?  I can see a player asking God to help them play to the best
>of their ability at the time, however...

Then why should anybody pray for anything? 
 
>>>John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  ata@hfsi.com
>>Rich
>>payner@netcom.com
>John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  ata@hfsi.com

Rich

payner@netcom.com