From: swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim)
Subject: Re: WereVamp->Ars?
Organization: Rice University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 19:41:28 GMT

In article <27ap0m-@lynx.unm.edu>>  kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt "Some Guy" Bose)writes:
>In article <1992Oct1.154121@cs.man.ac.uk>> peterw@cs.man.ac.uk (Peter Wake) writes:
>>
>>2)  Rules are so quirky as to encourage rule-lawyer type behaviour and
>>    rule-play.
>
>Rules are simple and straightforward.  There is no "rules lawyering", because
>you tell a story.  Of course, players who come to see rules as a crutch often
>lack the creativity to pull away from them.  I find this most often with
>systems that are bound by shoddy, picky, useless rules like...Champions.
  Ah, so if you tell a story, you can get by with sloppy rules. What about
those of us who prefer "character driven" adventures with no set story? I 
guess we're not REAL role players.

>>3)  Very little guide lines for difficulty levels means that referee might
>>    as well just assign percentages and throw the system away.
>
>Er...any game that uses dice has "percentages".  Vampire relies on dice less
>than almost any game this side of Amber.  Are you sure you haven't been playing
>"Ravenloft"?
  No. It means that it's easier to give someone a percent based chance of success,
rather than try to figure out what's a good success number.

>>4)  Combat system does not work.
>>5)  Damage system does not work.
>
>Only if the players and storyteller are stupid.
 Only if the players and storyteller are stupid enough to use the storyteller
combat system.

>>6)  Difficulty above 9 for any task causes complete system break-down.
>>    i.e. The Antideluvian with 19 dice against starting character with
>>    Stamina 5, Fortitude 3.  However many dice he has chance of scoring
>>    a success (to wound) is the same as chance of losing one from a
>>    botch.  Furthermore Sta 10, Fort 10 is no better than above at
>>    resisting normal damage - still roll a 10.
>>    (I have a fix for this, I'm sure you can think of one too.
>>     Or a neat continuum of three.  Left as an exercise :-)
>
>Don't mess with them. Only a munchkin would take on an Antediluvian.  Of course,
>only a munchkin would wind up with 10s.  What the hell have you been playing?
  He means that the system breaks down at the high end of stats. I agree with
him.The above mentioned Antediluvian doesn't have to worry about damage from
normal weapons at all, regardless of the damage they do. (Unless the attacker
gets really lucky.)

>What idiot plays for "experience"?  To see who can get the "kool" powers?
  Ah, so you don't use experience, either. What other rules do you ignore?

>>8)  The rules are sloppily written and dreadfully organised.  I have never
>>    come across any rules that were so tedious to wade through (except
>>    maybe C&S and that's all tables).
>
>Again, must not have read Champions.
  The rules for Champions are MUCH better laid out than the ones for Vampire.
They also work a lot better. I much prefer a dry text that presents the rules
simply and effectively to one where I have to hop all over the place.

>
>Granted, the index is horrible, but Vamp II will rectify that...
  Look at the table of contents for AM III and say that again with a
straight face.

>>9)  The vampiric powers are described like something from AD&D - the
>>    referee has to do so much work that he'd be better off re-writing
>>    the whole system from scratch.
>
>That settles it.  You _can't_ handle creativity.  Look, the '70s are over.  The
>genre matured.  I'm sorry WW hasn't acquired the rights to "White Plume
>Mountain" for you, but we aim a little higher than that...
  The genre matured enough for really successful games to be sloppily
written? What are you aiming for? I like my rules to be useful, so I can
concentrate on the background.

>>When I *pay* for a set of rules I don't expect to have to do all the work.
>
>Fine.  Stick to kiddie adventures.  Play D&D.  For once, it's nice to have a
>game out there that rewards ingenuity.  If all you want to do is read rules,
>play ASL, for heaven's sake.
 You have to play Vampire for the GM to award ingenuity? You must be hurting.

>>We pay the games companies for rules because we don't want to bother
>>with working out everything for ourselves.  The rules do not guide
>
>So, you're a lazy bum.  You only get out of something what you put into it.  I
>imagine that you're the type of person who reads the room descriptions right
>out of the handbook.
  Is it really too much to ask for to have the rules work? Ah, but this is the
90's, the age of incompetence. I assume that you're too lazy to come up with 
your own setting, and use the one in the book.

>>or aid the referee much at all.  The rules for Toon and Ghostbusters
>>are more help, much faster and can describe Vampires and Werewolves
>...and are written for eight year olds.
  Or people who want to take a break from SERIOUS roleplaying.

>Didn't know Jackson Middle School was on the Internet...
Now aren't you glad you're going there.


-- 
Mike Swaim            | Canada will become the next world power
swaim@owlnet.rice.edu | and they will work to ENSLAVE all the nations
Disclamer: I lie      | of your planet. -Ricardo
Cthulhu in '92! The stars are right!
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