HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Subject: Need To Get In Touch With These People
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:22:41 GMT

Hi!

I am in dire need to get in touch with a few Celebrities from the
history of computers. If anyone knows how to get in touch with either
of these people, be it email, snailmail, phone, fax or basically any
form of communication, please send me email (or just reply to this
posting).

The reason I need to get in touch with these people is the following:
10 years ago, in 1982, Lund Institute of Technology had its first
batch of Computer Science/Computer Engineering students -- and the
D section (_D_atateknik == CS/CE) was born.
This year, to celebrate this marvelous event, the D section is going
to have a number of events, among which are a computer games
exhibition, a vendor fair, and -- hopefully -- a series of seminars
held by people who have had significant influence on the development
of computers. We came up with the following names, and now need to get
in touch with them. (If you have any further suggestions, feel free to
suggest :)

Here's the list:

Name					Reason
=================================	======================================
Brian Kernighan				C, unix
Dennis M Ritchie			C, unix
Ken Thompson				C, unix
Steve Jobs				Apple, NeXT
Steven Wozniak				Apple
Seymour Cray				Cray (leather sofa)
Bill Gates				Microsoft
Bjarne Stroustrup			C++
Richard M Stallman			Emacs, FSF, GNU
Douglas R Hofstadter			Gdel, Escher, Bach
Donald Knuth				The Art of Computer Programming, TeX
Nikolaus Wirth				Pascal, Modula-(1,2,3), Oberon
Peter Norton				Norton Utilities
John Scully				Apple
Alan Kay				User Interfaces, Smalltalk
Kristen Nygaard				SIMULA, Object oriented programming
Clifford Stoll				The Cuckoo's Egg
==============================================================================

As I said, I would be *extremely* grateful for replies to this query
of mine -- and do feel free to make suggestions/additions to the list
above. 

best regards

Christian Brunschen

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
// Christian Brunschen // Husmansv. 26 // S - 227 38 Lund // Sweden //
// voice# +46 (0)46 139345  // internet d89cb@efd.lth.se //        //
// irc snooker Senster gcb // ------------------------------------++
From: person@plains.NoDak.edu (Brett G Person )
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Branching in HLL vs. Assembler (was Re: The need for an assembler)
Date: 30 Aug 92 19:06:25 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network


I have fond memories of IBM system editors.  The convention of putting
sequence numbers in 73-80 worked fine if you had a compiler that
underrstood them.  I had the misfortune of using , I think, Waterloo
Fivetran.. I mean, fortran that didn't understand what those things in
73-80 were. 

we ended up writing a filter to remove the sequence numbers before we
sent the code to the compiler!  Yuck!

-- 
Brett Person
Guest Account	
North Dakota State University
person@plains.nodak.edu || person@plains.bitnet
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
From: ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 01:01:51 GMT
 <9224500.8027@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> <1992Sep1.214853.25319@news.columbia.edu>
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:

>The stuff in question can't be syntactically expressed in the kind of hll
>you are talking about.

Of course, if anyone following the thread had any clear idea on what you
are talking about, we might actually see that this argument was correct.
As long as I don't see examples, I'll have to treat it as a smokescreen.

>what if machines are created that are
>so emasculated that all they have are the wimpy instruction sequences only
>equivalent to the hll structure of today!

It would appear to me that this has already happened to a large extent.
Architectures like RS/6000, HP-PA, or MIPS are closely modelled on what
HLL's can do. Interestingly enough, these are also the fastest machines
around; try measuring up a 486 against a HP - 700 and tell me what you
find :-)

Have you done any significant amount of work on any of these machines,
or do you speak from experience solely coming from CISC designs? Have
you ever looked at the code an optimizing compiler on one of these
machines produces? Do you feel competent to outprogram the C compiler on
a MIPS? Do you feel competent to outprogram the combination of a HP-700
and its C compiler with a 68040 or i486 and assembly?
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: parry@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Tom J Parry)
Subject: Re: Computers killing people? (WAS Re: 9 track data storage???)
Originator: parry@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 03:13:19 GMT

Ernest Cline (cline@cs.scarolina.edu) wrote:
> pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:
> 
> 
> >But now you are saying that as well as some sort of virus code in the
> >printer, there also has to be hidden code in the print driver or something
> >to upload this damaging code.  If that's the case, why not just put the
> >damaging code in the printer driver, rather than in the printer?
> 
> >It seems _pretty_ far fetched to me.  I'd believe a virus in the Iraqi
> >language version of WordImPerfect before I'd believe a virus in
> >HP-PhaserJet.  (Printers on stun :-)
> 

sorry for the double quote, can't find original.

There is another possibility. Most people are interpreting 'printer with a
virus', or whatever, as meaning the printer contains 'code' of some kind to
get a virus into a computer or to make a computer do something ugly by
sending funny packets around.

Nobody seems to have considered that the printer could be 'infected' (or
built) with the virus in _IT_. Such a change to the printer's software
(let's assume its a laser printer so it's effectively a computer itself)
could be made to change output, add errors into location data, troop
movements, whatever. i don't see the _necessity_ that a secondary machine
be infected BY the printer.

-- 
Tom J Parry.
Your reality is a figment of my imagination.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: bmarcum@world.std.com (Bill Marcum)
Subject: Re: CyC project
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:22:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.115205.58436@cc.usu.edu> ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!) writes:
>
>I'm more interested in the status of the backups. Is a backup of CyC a
>person? Is erasing a backup tape murder?
>
Not just *A* person.  You could restore from the same backup tape any number
of times.  In that case, erasing the tape could be genocide!

Bill Marcum  bmarcum@world.std.com
I'm not a fictional character, but I play one in real life.
From: "ray whidden" <ray.whidden@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: better dead than ibm
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:11:55 EST
Reply-To: "ray whidden" <ray.whidden@canrem.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Canada Remote Systems




PG>fstuart@eng.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) writes:

>What does IBM *really* stand for?  Let me know if you know the answer and
>I'll post a summary in a week or two.

When I started working for Honeywell Information Systems in 1967, several
of my friends started at IBM and with the trend to relocating people to 
new cities, it was typically, "I've Been Moved".

Ray

Internet: ray.whidden@canrem.com : RIME    : ->CRS : 46 Campania Crescent,
UUCP: canrem!ray.whidden FidoNet: 1:250/632 : Scarborough, Ontario M1V 2E9

 * DeLuxe2 1.21 #4419 * Bedfellows make strange politicians
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban
From: stefang@isy.liu.se (Stefan Gustavson)
Subject: Re: flash pictures of the sunset
Organization: Dept of EE, University of Linkoping
Date: 25 Aug 92 07:35:42 GMT

landauer@morocco.Eng.Sun.COM (Doug Landauer) writes:

>I believe I kinda understand what (if anything) is going on in some of
>those tourists' minds that causes that behavior.  I know nothing about
>cameras (likewise many of these tourists), but:  many cameras are set
>up to have nearly all of their functions be as automatic as possible,
>with as few buttons as possible.  As that tecnology developed, it did
>so by bits and pieces.
>(Here's the folklore part:)   For some of those cameras, if you turn on
>the flash, the shutter will stay open a little longer.  So the tourists
>(who are not always as unintelligent as y'all think) have learned that
>to get a better picture when it's dark.

On many modern fully automatic besserwisser cameras, you don't have a choice.
If it's dark, the camera urges you to fire a flash in order to take any
picture at all. The shutter does not stay open any longer because of the
flash. The camera just tries to be a wiseguy for you.

Thousands of automatic flashes make a great special effect in large audiences
at night, though. I suppose you watched the Olympic opening?

      /Stefan Gustavson (stefang@isy.liu.se)
From: mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Flawchart
Date: 28 Aug 92 02:57:01 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Aug28.020536.5131@nrao.edu> cflatter@nrao.edu writes:
>A mention of flowcharts in another posting here touches off a question that
>occasionally bugs me when I have nothing better to think about.
>
>In "The Science of Programming" David Gries consistently refers to flawcharts.
>Is this strange spelling, with its derogatory overtones, a peculiarity of
>Dr. Gries or his proofreader or was it ever in common use?

Is this anything like Richard O'Keefe's reference to "Quacksort"?


-- 
+ Michael Covington - Artificial Intelligence Programs - U of Georgia - USA 
+ Unless otherwise noted, these are private opinions, not official statements.
+ VOTE NO GEORGIA LOTTERY - we need not imitate mistakes of other states.
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13396 comp.unix.misc:3448
From: newton@iagu.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Mark Newton)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Date: 1 Sep 92 00:19:32 GMT
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers
Organization: University of Adelaide, South Australia

In article <1992Aug31.055948.14380@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>There are demented assemblers out there.  We have been fighting them for
>years.  Not all of them are so demented, and besides these effects are
>known, and quite localized.  A competent programmer caring about this
>problem works around it.

There are demented compilers out there.  We have been fighting them for
years.  Not all of them are so demented, and besides these effects are
known, and quite localized.  A competent programmer caring about this
problem works around it.

   - mark
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
         'Do not expose your LaserWriter to naked flame...'
newton@iagu.itd.adelaide.edu.au         - Apple LaserWriter Manual
------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus James HENDERSON)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:05:19 GMT

lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:

>In article <9224103.2761@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> fjh@cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus Henderson) writes:
>>I maintain that ANY given assembler "trick" CAN be built into a compiler.
>>If it is seriously worthwhile, then it WILL be.
>
>[Lasner disagrees...]
>We sufficiently discussed items that don't translate
>into hll as currently implemented everywhere.

The fact that something has not been implemented does not mean that it
is in principle impossible.

>Thus, you deny what has been universally agreed upon.

Your definition of "universally" must be different to mine :-)

The fact is that a compiler can emit whatever assembler code it likes.
People HAVE written compilers that identify certain particular constructs
and then emit carefully hand-crafted assembler that does the same thing.
It IS possible, at least in principle, for a compiler to emit exactly the
same code as anything a human could write.

>(The relative merit of the untranslatables is
>another issue, but not their existence.)

There are no absolute untranslatables.
There *are* "tricks" that your current compiler is not smart enough to
use, but for every trick you can think of, I can write a compiler that
is smart enough to use it.

The original post to which I replied said

| However, a human can also not save a register which _is_ used if he knows
| the function being called won't touch it. Whether this is worth the
| maintenence problems caused is another question...

In this case, the writer was apparently unaware that many modern compilers
perform exactly this optimization, with none of the maintenance problems.
Indeed here the "in principle" is in fact also the case in practice.
I suspect that most assembly language programmers are unaware of the extent
to which compilers have improved and the rate at which they continue to
improve.

-- 
Fergus Henderson             fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU      
This .signature virus is a self-referential statement that is true - but 
you will only be able to consistently believe it if you copy it to your own
.signature file!
From: tdzubin@cue.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Movie "Stay Tuned" and PDP-11 spotted?
Date: 28 Aug 1992 23:22:24 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


I hope this hasn't been discussed in some thread that I've missed, but...

Did anyone notice the PDP-11 in the current movie "Stay Tuned"?

It is in the scene where Roy (John Ritter) is a crash-test dummy in a
car about to hit a wall.  The data-gathering computer used by the Devil's
helper, Spike seems to be a PDP-11.  No DEC markings or whatever, just
the old familiar red & burgundy colours.  The scene went by *real* quick.
Can anyone with a more eagle eye than myself confirm that it was a PDP?

What does this mean?  All of the dead PDP11's have gone to hell????!?!?
I would have thought they'd be all using VMS or MSDOS down there.
:-)

ps: yes, I already know about the PDP-8 in "Three Days of the Condor"

Thomas Dzubin
tdzubin@cue.bc.ca
Does Craig Shergold know if 2000 is a leap year or not?  If he does,
will he be keeping his money in the bank on Dec 31 1999?    :-)  :-)  :-)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus James HENDERSON)
Subject: Re: Branching in HLL vs. Assembler (was Re: The need for an assembler)
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:02:22 GMT

lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:

>In article <1992Aug28.221421.18061@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
>>
>>The problem isn't so much with the GOTO as with the lack of a COMEFROM.
>>
>>Suppose you're neck deep in the bowels of a multi-megabyte system and you
>>come across a label in the source code.  There could be any number of
>>GOTOs in the code that branch to that label.  Even if the original
>>programmer was kind enough to provide a comment listing them all (I've
>>only seen that once and I wrote it), figuring out which particular one
>>you're concerned about can be a nightmare. (In a language like BASIC the
>>problem is even worse since _every line_ can be the target of an arbitrary
>>number of GOTOs).
>
>a)	That's ludicrous since no code does a GOTO the middle of a module
>therefore the largest thing to worry about is the size of the module you
>are working on where the label exists.

I have seen 2000-line source files with GOTOs that spanned 1000 lines.

>b)	*Real* compilers/assemblers have cross-reference listings so you can
>check it out if you care.

The point is that it requires quite a bit of extra effort to be sure that 
you really understand what that goto/label pair really do when compared to
the difficulty of understanding a simple "while" loop. In the former case,
you have to scan the entire module, (create and then) look at the
cross-reference listing, or do a grep. In the latter case, you know
*immediately* what the "while" does.

>c)	If you don't have b) then why aren't you worrying about subroutine
>CALLs which can do as much damage or more, and never would be documented as
>to where they are calling to/from.  The scope of this could truly be a
>global problem in a large program.  That's why internal subroutines were
>invented, so others couldn't access them.  Similarly, no one expects or
>uses a global GOTO.

You may not, but there are some that do.
This means that when you are examining a piece of source code, you
must keep the possibility that the programmer used a non-local goto
in mind. This makes understanding the code just that little bit more
difficult.

-- 
Fergus Henderson             fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU      
This .signature virus is a self-referential statement that is true - but 
you will only be able to consistently believe it if you copy it to your own
.signature file!
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Branching in HLL vs. Assembler (was Re: The need for an assemble
From: ewen@naos.actrix.gen.nz (Ewen McNeill)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 22:26:27   Y
Organization: Naos - Inside the Z80

IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU (macphil) writes:

> There is a single test applying to most code in the industry:
>  
> If ProgramWorks
> Then Great!
>
Actually, it seems to be more like:

  If ProgramWorks
  Then Great!
  Else If Not SomeOneNotices
    Then Great!
    Else ThinkAboutFixingProblem

Of course it keeps maintenance programmers in jobs.... :-)

--
Ewen McNeill, ewen@naos.actrix.gen.nz (or ewen@actrix.gen.nz)
From: rh@smds.com (Richard Harter)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: On the care and feeding of GOTOS
Date: 30 Aug 92 02:17:27 GMT
Reply-To: rh@ishmael.UUCP (Richard Harter)
Organization: Software Maintenance & Development Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug28.221421.18061@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:

>The problem isn't so much with the GOTO as with the lack of a COMEFROM.

>Suppose you're neck deep in the bowels of a multi-megabyte system and you
>come across a label in the source code.  There could be any number of
>GOTOs in the code that branch to that label.  Even if the original
>programmer was kind enough to provide a comment listing them all (I've
>only seen that once and I wrote it), figuring out which particular one
>you're concerned about can be a nightmare.

Nah, that's not the problem.

A goto is just a tail call with current continuation.

A label is an internal procedure.

Or at least you can interpret them that way.  As Knuth observed in one
of his essays, proof of correctness of goto/label programming is very
simple -- for each label there is an assertion that states what conditions
must be satisfied for a legitimate transfer to that label.  For each
goto there must be a proof that the preconditions for transferring to
the target label hold.

To establish correctness you don't need a comefrom any more than you need
to know where a procedure is called from.  It suffices that there be
an interface specification that is observed.  You need the cross reference
information if (a) the interface specification is being changed, or (b)
if it is being violated.

Of course this is only theoretical -- very few programmers document each
label with the preconditions for transferring to the label.  [The number
zero springs to mind.]

-- 
Richard Harter: SMDS Inc.  Net address: rh@smds.com Phone: 508-369-7398 
US Mail: SMDS Inc., PO Box 555, Concord MA 01742.    Fax: 508-369-8272
In the fields of Hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dpbsmith@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith)
Subject: IF-less programming
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:12:01 GMT

I was writing some real-time code for a PDP-11. The general idea was that
every time a timer ticked, an interrupt would occur and a whole bunch of
stuff would happen. Well, PDP-11/40's are asynchronous, and branches take
different amounts of time depending on whether the branch happens or not,
and the formula in the back of the book for estimating the times things take
was both very complicated and advertised as approximate.  Anyway, variations
in execution time were causing jitter in analog outputs and stuff that were
happening further down the line...

...so I recoded most of my stuff in such a way that there were no conditionals.
In most cases, I could use logical operations computationally to get the
same effect without branching. Well, it tended to be a little slower than
the straightforward way -- but the fact that the routines took constant
time so there was no jitter outweighed it.  I was really surprised just
how far I could take the technique, and how relatively little trouble it
was once I got used to the idea.

So, the way I figure it ... lots of bugs are the result of logic paths not
taken, right?  So if you eliminate all the IF statements there is only
one logic path, hence it's easy to get 100% test coverage.

So I consider IF statements are harmful, and I will set up a consulting
practice and give seminars in IF-less programming, and I will promise
as much as 1000% productivity gains and tenfold bug reductions -- but of
course, ONLY when you have FULLY adopted the methodology throughout
your ENTIRE organization.  Oh, you'd better use my special templates
to draw my special charts ... and my IF-less programming CASE tools are
on the way.  :-)

-- 
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbsmith@world.std.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dpbsmith@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith)
Subject: "GOTO-less" BASIC
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:53:50 GMT

I should have saved it. Nobody will believe me. But it's true, and the
article didn't appear in an April issue.  I think it was in Softalk,
or maybe one of the Commodore hobbyist publications.  IT WAS SERIOUS.

The author had discovered that most versions of BASIC allow two forms of 
the IF...THEN statement:

    IF <condition> THEN <general BASIC statement>
    IF <condition> THEN <linenumber>

He was deprecating the use of statements like

    IF <condition> THEN GOTO 210

and recommending their replacement by statements like

    IF <condition> THEN 210

HE WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT EXECUTION EFFICIENCY OR SAVING TOKENS OR 
ANYTHING LIKE THAT.  His point was that by using the second form,
you were ELIMINATING THE USE OF GOTO.

Yes! I swear it!  HE MEANT IT!  It was a great way of avoiding GOTO's!
 

-- 
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbsmith@world.std.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.human-factors,comp.misc,comp.programming
From: krona@cyklop.nada.kth.se (Kjell Krona)
Subject: Re: Indentation
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:24:51 GMT

In several programming environments on the Macintosh, the code is
indented acccording to its scope automatically. In HyperTalk, the
programming language of HyperCard, the editor indents the code when
the tab key is pressed. This immediately shows up any mistakes in
the scope logic, and is very useful (at least for me).

	- kjell		krona@nada.kth.se

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.computers