HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: Title Insurance
Date: 18 Aug 92 02:06:06 GMT
Reply-To: asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks

Written in article <BsxMF8.7rF@nntp-sc.Intel.COM>
 by sundar@mipos2.intel.com ():

: the TI companies and lending institutions have rules and
: regulations that tip the scale in their favor.

No doubt!

: Last year, I refinanced
: my mortgage to take advantage of the low interest rates within a year of
: closing on the escrow. When I asked my bank with which I held the
: mortgage about refinancing with them, I was asked to get a TI. I don't
: know why I had to get the insurance again.  When I approached the TI
: company which provided the TI at the closing time, I had to pay them the
: premium of about $700 again.

This is crock.  I've talked to a number of Title companies, and if you
approach them wihtin a reasonable period of time, they'll discount.
After all, what could have changed inside 12 months?

The answer to that is to threaten (and carry out this threat) to take
your business elsewhere (if possible ... I'm assuming your title company
has competition).  After all, if they're going to be jerks about it, you
do NOT have to do business with them.

: On a different note, why is the TI so high? Is there a high risk?
: Do the stats show that the TI companies stand to lose a lot?

I believe the biggest factor in determining price is the market, ie,
what they can get away with.  Since so few people deal with real estate
transactions on any kind of scale (you don't buy a house every week),
there's not much consumer information based on past experience.  They
basically could charge anything that doesn't sour the deal.

I seriously doubt that in this age of damn near all the information
being computerized that there's any significant risk.

It's like that insurance that costs $5-10/day in car rentals; when 
worked out based on real risk, it ought to cost around 15 cents.  But, 
they don't compete based on the price of insurance, so if they can scare 
the consumer into getting it ("It's ONLY $7 after all!  And just THINK of 
the PROTECTION!"), it makes for additional income.

But, like anything else in the market, an informed consumer can make
changes.  Ie, ASK for a lower rate, and you MIGHT get it.  The worst you
risk is to have to carry out your threat and take your business else-
where.  Title companies, like any other, will usually happily take 1/2
a fee over no fee any day, especially in a slow market.

-- 
The Chipmunk.
Opinions are mine, void where prohibited, taxed, licensed or regulated.
What this country needs is a good five-cent nickel.
From: loftis@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Kirk Loftis)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:46:37 GMT
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate

	Have you attempted to pay in fifteen years on a 30-year note?  I
have, the bank always screws up the paperwork every year.  You have to
be on top of the interest and principal that you are paying.  It is to
the bank's advantage to have stay 30 years versus 15.  Even if you want
to make payments in advance (this is different than paying the principal
in advance).  Not all banks are the same (I hope), but I can understand
why they would want to accidently do the wrong thing.  (GREED).

	After having two 30-year notes, I am buying 15 from now on.

	Here is a question.  How about 20-year notes?  The intererst
paid on this is not much more than 15, but far less than 30.  Why don't
people buy 20-year notes?

	I like the idea of paying off mortgages ASAP.  If you look at
the total payments on a 30-year note, you could nearly buy two house on
15 year notes.  It is amazing the amount of interest you pay.

	Kirk
From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: flood insurance
Date: 18 Aug 92 01:50:50 GMT
Reply-To: asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks

Gadz, I hate when folks put their login on the Follow-up!  My newsreader
doesn't handle that at ALL!

Written in article <1992Aug13.052737.10601@news.acns.nwu.edu>
 by hguo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Hongsheng Guo):

: I am buying a townhouse in Niles, IL.  Can anyone tell me what flood
: insurance is?  Does every homeowner have to have it?  How importent is it?
: Where can I should go to get one?   Is a zone map neccesary?
: Thank you in advance.
:	 please repply to hguo@nwu.edu

I'm guessing that it covers damage due to floods?

Whether or not "every" homeowner needs it depends on a number of
factors.  What does your lender say?  Compare that against what OTHER
lenders say, since some lie and/or don't know their anal orifice from 
a hole in the ground.  It's the law in some areas, and no big deal in 
others.

Obviously, if you live on top of a mountain, it may not be as necessary
as at the bottom of a valley, or in the former lake-bed where the lake 
is now blocked by a dam which might break, or in parts where the
Mississippi river hasn't flowed in 100 years but may change any day
now.

However, even on top of a mountain, your kid might leave the the 
bathroom faucet running upstairs, which certainly will flood downstairs, 
and cause a certain amount of damage (just your luck to have the home-
office directly underneath, with the brand-new 486/50 computer system 
soaking away!)

If not required by law/lender, the importance is completely up to you.
What do YOU think the risks are compared to the costs?

Don't know what a "zone map" is.

-- 
The Chipmunk.
Opinions are mine, void where prohibited, taxed, licensed or regulated.
Stult's Report: Our problems are mostly behind us.  What we have to do 
now is fight the solutions.
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: ajg@controls.ccd.harris.com (Arnold Goldberg)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: How important is title insurance?
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:59:03 GMT
Organization: Harris Controls and Compositions

>>>>> On Tue, 11 Aug 92 23:01:00 GMT, pkrause@triton.unm.edu (Paul Krause CIRT) said:
	Paul> In article <1992Aug11.221036.3534@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> rbm8p@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Rick MacDonald) writes:
>
>The attourney who is handling my deed in an owner-financed
>house purchase wants me to buy title insurance.  The house
>is 40 years old and is located mid-neighborhood.  Is title
>insurance just a gimmick?
Paul> Good question.  I have had several heated discussions with various real estate
Paul> related people about this.  Around here, no title company will close a sale
Paul> without it.  Is there anyone reading this group who has ever had first hand
Paul> experience with a title policy paying off?  My own feeling is that it is a
Paul> way to make the buyer/seller pay for insurance to protect from title company
Paul> or attorney mistakes but is such a part of the system there is little hope
Paul> of avoiding it.

Title insurance is the only way title companies make money.  No wonder they
won't let you close without getting it.  But, it's not always necessary.  Such
as, you're buying a house from your parents or vise versa, double escrows, 
etc.

You'll have a really tough time talking a title insurance company into
closing without the title insurance, though.  I've found they usually
earn their money since there is quite a large amount of paperwork involved,
especially in REO's, current foreclosures, etc.

arnold




--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold Goldberg                            Email:  ajg@ccd.harris.com
Phone: (407)242-5051                       Snail:  Harris Corporation
Fax  : (407)242-4262                               407 John Rodes Blvd.
                                                   Melbourne, FL 32905
The opinions expressed are my own and do not in any way represent Harris 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate,co.general,misc.forsale
From: wmoore@comet.ucar.edu (Wayne Moore)
Subject: BOULDER area HOUSE FOR SALE
Organization: no affiliation 
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:41:38 GMT

126,900$  6803 Camelia Court, NIWOT, Colorado
7 miles from Boudler NE toward Longmont
in Boulder County

Niwot is a real town, not a bedroom suburb, and is over 100 years old.

1982 Frame Ranch in NIWOT, quiet neighborhood surrounded by open space
4 Bedroom, 2 full 1-3/4 baths, separate study, big family room, living room,
dining room, 2-car garage, neighborhood with 3 close parks, great for family 
2220 finished sq ft (1110 on main)
Master bedroom with 3/4 bath plus 2 other bedrooms on main flr
full size windows in basement
2nd master bedroom with full bath in basement
Very energy efficient
Newer exterior paint (painted last summer)
Newer appliances
2 by 6 outer wall construction
thermal windows
skylights
automatic sprinkler system
garage door opener
clothes shoot to laundry sink
dog run
fireplace
professionally finished basement
attic fan
forced-air gas heat
gas hot water
Left Hand glacier water
Niwot school system (state leader)

Call 449-7000 and ask Jan McRoberts
about property by address
or send e-mail to wmoore@comet.ucar.edu
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate,misc.consumers.house
From: aep@icd.ab.com (Alexander E. Pensky)
Subject: Re: Making an Offer for a Home with a LIEN and Title Insurance
Organization: Allen-Bradley Co., Highland Heights, OH
Distribution: misc
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:38:49 GMT

In article <MACRAKIS.92Aug19113111@next4.osf.org>, macrakis@osf.org 
(Stavros Macrakis) writes:
> In article <AMALIK.92Aug18122141@bubba.ma30.bull.com>
> amalik@bubba.ma30.bull.com (Alka Malik Sobti) asks about buying a
> house with a lien on it.
> 
> [...]
>
> 2) You will probably want the lien cleared before closing.  Either
> that or reduce the price by the amount of the lien.

The sale _cannot_ close unless the lien has been removed.  By definition.
When there are liens on your property you don't hold clear title to it 
and you can't transfer it.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Alex Pensky    	(aep@icd.ab.com)		         (216)646-5211
 Allen-Bradley Company             747 Alpha Drive, Highland Heights, OH 44143
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:28:33

In article <75970004@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> loftis@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Kirk Loftis) writes:

   How about 20-year notes?  The intererst paid on this is not much
   more than 15, but far less than 30....

I haven't seen any on offer around here (Massachusetts), and I have
looked at a fair number of lenders.  Who quoted you a 20-year rate?

	   I like the idea of paying off mortgages ASAP.  If you look at
   the total payments on a 30-year note, you could nearly buy two house on
   15 year notes.  It is amazing the amount of interest you pay.

This is the standard compound interest phenomenon.  It is meaningless
to sum future money flows without calculating present value.  Since
there is a tax deduction for home mortgages, but not other kinds of
loans, it is actually advantageous to have a longer-term loan, since
if instead of making higher payments you invested the difference,
you'd be paying tax on your gains (capital or otherwise).

	-s

Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: hawks@mdd.comm.mot.com (Jim Hawks)
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:03:30 GMT

In article <19667@fritz.filenet.com> asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk) writes:
>I responded to this once, but it got nuked.  'Course, it might have only
> <deleted>
>
>Don't forget, the interest portion of the payment shrinks over time.
>
>To take a classic example, the payment on $100k loan at 18% (1.5% per
>month) is $1507 (and change).  Of that first month, the interest portion
>is $1500, (1.5% of $100k) and $7 is principle reduction.  The very next
>month, it's only 1.5% of $99,993, a little less.
>
>Somewhere between 5 and 10 years, you reach the halfway point, 1/2
>interest, and 1/2 principle.  It's not linear, so it's not at 15.
>
>By the time you get to around 20, 25 years into the loan, the interest
>deduction is so small it's almost not worth keeping track of for tax
>purposes.
>
>This is one reason (in my guestimation) that people in America move so 
>frequently ... as the interest tax deduction shrinks, the real cost of
>the loan grows.  When you move, you get a nice brand new loan, nice
>and almost fully-deductible again.
>
>However, the halfway point (wherever it is, I don't recall) for a 30
>year loan IS further out (of course) than a 15 year loan.  So, besides
>that detail, what you say is true.
>
>-- 
>The Chipmunk.
>Opinions are mine, void where prohibited, taxed, licensed or regulated.
>Stult's Report: Our problems are mostly behind us.  What we have to do 
>now is fight the solutions.

Generally I have agreed with the Chipmunk but this one is way off.
In month 314 I=758.51 and P=748.58, in month 315 I=747.28 and P=759.81.

Interest payments generally are the bulk of your payments for more than
half the loan life. If you use something more realistic for today like
8.5% (still a bit high I know) on the 100k (100k is not realistic in
Washington - too low) than your monthly is 769 and the half way point
is between your 262nd and 263rd months (387/382 and 384/385 respectively).
That's a bit better but still well over half way.
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: cak@citi.umich.edu (Carol A. Kamm)
Subject: Investment Property Exchanges
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 15:00:15 EDT
Organization: Center for Information Technology Integration, University of Michigan
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: cak@citi.umich.edu

I'm looking for information/opinions/advice on doing what I believe is
called a 3rd-party investment property exchange.  Here are some details:

My husband and I own a piece of vacant land.  There is another piece
of land with a home on it (would be rented at least part time) that we are 
considering purchasing.  To avoid capital gains, we would like to exchange 
our land for the other property.  However, the
older woman selling the property 
is not interested in exchanging with us - she
wants to cash out (or possibly 
land-contract, to get some income).  So we need a
third party to take our land.

My question is very open-ended:  what experience does anybody have with
arrangements like this?  What should we be sure to do, look out for, etc.?

I'm consulting real-estate attorneys as well, but a little first-hand
experience from anyone out there would be most helpful.

Please try to respond by email - I don't always get to read news.
Thanks in advance.
From: wicklund@intellistor.com (Tom Wicklund)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: How important is title insurance?
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:31:27 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Intellistor, Inc.

In <q83mmcr@lynx.unm.edu> pkrause@triton.unm.edu (Paul Krause CIRT) writes:

>Good question.  I have had several heated discussions with various real estate
>related people about this.  Around here, no title company will close a sale
>without it.  Is there anyone reading this group who has ever had first hand
>experience with a title policy paying off?  My own feeling is that it is a
>way to make the buyer/seller pay for insurance to protect from title company
>or attorney mistakes but is such a part of the system there is little hope
>of avoiding it.

I've had title insurance pay for a special assessment that the builder
was supposed to have paid.  They may have also gotten the builder to
pay the assessment, something individual homeowners (owing about $100
each) didn't have the incentive to do.
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: tonyg@spock.retix.com (Tony "Salty Dog" Goulding)
Subject: Experiences of Property Management companies sought
Organization: Retix, Santa Monica CA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:59:23 GMT

A friend is interested in renting out her house and is interested in any
good advice on the subject.
Please email to tonyg@retix.com
Thanks
TOny.

-- 

==================================================================
Q:	What is the difference between LA and yoghurt?
A:	One is cultured...
From: jms@vision.sarnoff.com (Jerry Shapiro x2420)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: Refinancing pittfalls?
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:05:19 GMT
Reply-To: jms@vision.sarnoff.com
Organization: David Sarnoff Research Center

In article 18681@msc.cornell.edu, revesz@msc.cornell.edu (Peter Revesz) writes:
>At preset I am at 9.625% 30 years fixed. I have got an offer
>to refinance to 8.375% for 15 years at no closing cost.
>Talking with the bank the guy said the only thing I will have
>to pay is my attorney's fee and maybe the survey re-certification.
>Nothing else. 
>
>  No application fee, 
>  no credit report fee
>  no appraisal fee
>  no commitment fee
>  no title insurance fee
>  no bank attorney fee
>  no mortgage taxes
>  no recording fee
>  no points
>  not required to increase the present mortgage ballance
>  no obligation to accept any commitment or loan
>
>What are the (possible) catches, pittfalls?
>What are the right questions to ask?
>Too good to be true?
>
>
> Thank you,
>    Peter
>          revesz@msc.cornell.edu


The interest rate sounds a bit high for a 15 year 0 point loan. I've
seen ads in the paper that go below 8%.

Jerry Shapiro
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: rcarter@gaudi.nas.nasa.gov (Russell L. Carter)
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 17:48:56 GMT

In article <16obd6INNt7a@seven-up.East.Sun.COM> jfox@hooksett.East.Sun.COM writes:
>In article 19578@fritz.filenet.com, asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk) writes:
>(text deleted)
>> Despite the fact that 15 year loans sometimes go for a lower interest 
>> rate than 30 year loans, I STILL maintain it is MORE ADVANTAGEOUS to
>> just get a conventional 30 year loan.
>> 
>> If you wish the advantages of higher equity accumulation, simply compute
>> the difference between payments, and apply that to the principle.  The
>> results will be ROUGHLY the SAME as a similar 15 year loan, but you have
>> the option of NOT paying the extra if you need the money for something 
>> else.
>> 
>> Like food!
>> 
>Although this sounds good on paper, I think a primary advantage to the
>15 year mortgage is that you *have* to pay the extra. If you try to
>tell yourself you'll pay off extra each month, many people probably
>won't. Rather, they'll *find* a use for the extra mortgage money, and
>fool themselves that it is more important than reducing the term of the
>mortgage (like going to the fancy restaurant instead of the inexpensive
>one).
>If someone is in financial trouble, chances are an extra $150 or so
>per month is not going to make a difference, but when all is said and
>done, most people would be better off not given the option each month.
>
>
>John
>


This is simply preposterous.  If you can't manage your funds, then just
admit stupidity, frivilosity, dilletantism, dandyism, etc., and do
what the newspaper or your favorite banker advises you to do.  Chances
are you'll do no worse than any of the other lemmings.  If you can
manage your money, a choice like that between 15 and 30 year mortgage
is the sort of choice one looks for when you want to maximize net
income while managing risk over time.  'Course, you got to think
abit, too.  Hmm, maybe that *is* too much responsibility for "most
people."

I never could understand why people went for 15 over 30 year mortgages,
given my analysis of the flows and risk of both approaches.
I was quite interested to see that "The Chipmunk"'s analysis agreed
with my own.  The math really isn't very hard, let's keep looking
at these claims objectively, using mathematically derived facts
as the basis for comparison.

Course, if you've got an angle on how to make money off the psychology
of the masses ...

Russell
From: pkrause@triton.unm.edu (Paul Krause CIRT)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: How important is title insurance?
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:32:51 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <MACRAKIS.92Aug12112534@next4.osf.org> macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:
       Much deleted

>cut.  Banks always require title insurance for their interest in the
>property.  Whether you get title insurance for your interest in the
>property is your choice.  Every expert I've heard or read recommends
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that you get it.  Like all insurance, you pay a relatively small
>amount up front (about 0.1%) to protect an unlikely but disastrous
>future event.  In practice, you don't have the choice of title

Perhaps this a good forum to discuss this conventional wisdom.

If I buy a house for $100,000 with $5000 down and assume the old loan,
I really only have $5,000 at risk since the sellers title ins. covers
the loan value.  Thus it is going to cost me $700-800 for $5,000
of protection.  In addition, I still have the choice of taking the
seller to court on my own.  

Another point, Look at the exceptions on the title policy.  Do you
really think they cover all problems?

I am still waiting to hear from anyone who has ever used his title
policy.

Paul
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: bobk@sequent.com (Bob Krull)
Subject: Re: Investment Property Exchanges
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 15:11:32 GMT

>In article <W3d-P2#@engin.umich.edu>, cak@citi.umich.edu (Carol A. Kamm)
>writes:
>> I'm looking for information/opinions/advice on doing what I believe is
>> called a 3rd-party investment property exchange.  Here are some details:
>> 
>> My husband and I own a piece of vacant land.  There is another piece
>> of land with a home on it (would be rented at least part time) that we
>> are 
>> considering purchasing.  To avoid capital gains, we would like to
>> exchange 
>> (stuff deleted...)
> 
In article <1992Aug19.023421.12632@Arco.COM> dprlcm@inetg1.ARCO.COM (Larry Morley) writes:
>My understanding was that to qualify for a non-taxable exchange you
>have to swap "like kind" real properties. The IRS has been willing
>to stretch the definition of "like kind" quite a bit to accommodate
>such exchanges as, say, a rental house for a small apartment. Raw land
>and a rental house, however, are clearly two different animals.

This is a common misconception.  For 1031 exchange purposes "like kind"
means real property for real property, or object d'art for object d'art,
or commodities for commodities, etc.  It is perfectly legitimate to
sell your Chinese Porcelain and purchase a Van Gogh, or your decrepit
dairy farm and purchase an apartment building.  As long as the exchange of
values is calculated on the basis of the land and improvements only, 
real property is real property.  Now, with that said, let me reemphasize
an earlier poster's remarks that this stuff is tricky, carefully scrutinized
by the IRS, and absolutely requires the services of a professional familiar
with this area.  BY ALL MEANS, CONSULT YOUR CPA OR REAL ESTATE ATTORNEY.

Bob Krull
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate