From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Continuing to Blame the Victim
Summary: A response to Alex Chaihorshy 
Keywords: Armenians, Azeris, Caucasus, Nagorno-Karabakh, violence 
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:46:46 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.215409.19702@mail.cornell.edu> Mark Lipsits <ml12@cornell
.edu> posted an article for alex@corte-madera.sds.slb.com (Alex Chaihorsky),
who wrote:

[AC] Sir:
[AC] 
[AC] I hope that you will not direct your anger against me the same way you
[AC] did against Mark Lipsits. But not only I agree with him, but I have also
[AC] something to add.

I hope you DO NOT agree with his delivery! He seems to have a personal issue 
with the existence of Armenians, I do not think you have such a problem.

[AC] I feel deep compassion for my Armenian friends, the
[AC] Armenians who I was with in Russian Army, the Armenians who I studied
[AC] with in University of Leningrad. Hundreds of thousands of people are
[AC] suffering, but they are suffering because of the political shortsightness
[AC] of a group of criminal minded nationalists that decided that Armenian
[AC] (Pan-Armenian actually) idea had had a chance in the times of USSR
[AC] decline. The whole thing was started by small groups of extremists that
[AC] started to make life of Azeris in Armenia hard. 

I want separate what you refer to as pan-Armenianism from the situation with
Azeris in Armenia. First, I am not sure where you believe the "whole thing
started"? Where do you start the clock? Azeris engaged in massive pogroms in
Sumgait before before the Azeris were pressured to leave Armenia. In addition,
Armenians have been persecuted in Karabakh since 1923, with no upgrading of
their condition. I have posted protest letters from Karabakh Armenians as far
back as 25 years ago -- long before the USSR was in decline. If necessary, I
can post letters of protest as far back as the 1920s and 1930s. During most 
meetings of the pseudo-Foreign Ministers of the 15 Soviet Republics, the issue
of the status of Karabakh would come up and would be shelved. The issue of
Karabakh was at the root of the status of Armenians in Azerbaijan and Azeris 
in Armenia.

[AC] Then the pressure continued, and the Azeris started to leave Armenia. 
[AC] Certainly they went to Baku - the capital of Azerbaijan - to seek help and
[AC] protection. That in its turn created that terrible, disgusting and 
[AC] criminal Armenian pogrom in Sumgait, where many an Armenian lost their 
[AC] lives, property and hopes. Do not get me wrong - I know from the first 
[AC] hands what actually happened later in Baku.

Azeris in Sumgait who committed pogroms on Armenians were not from Armenia! In
fact, the pogroms of Armenians in Sumgait were organized by higher bodies. I
suggest you check this out. By 1990, in Baku, there were Azeris from Armenia,
and it was then	they took part in the barbarism in Baku.

[AC] Azeris, and saying that I take full
[AC] responsibilities for my words, are not at all cool, balanced and nice
[AC] crowd. These are hot-blooded, taught by Communist ideology to love the
[AC] friends and hate the enemy mob, being exited by the truths and legends
[AC] about Azeris being beaten and thrown out of their homes in Armenia. This
[AC] crowd did kill, mutilate, rape and destroy, AS ANY OTHER MILITANT CROWD
[AC] DID. But who needed all that? This is my answer, and I am afgraid you are
[AC] not going to like it

You blame Soviet ideology for Azeri barbarity, yet below, you blame Armenian 
nationalists for their characteristics, as you have described them. I know
you are Azeri, but aren't you being rather chauvinist?  Throughout your
posting you blame Armenians for their current state, and blame the Armenians
for the Azeris attacking them!  

[AC]  - Armenian nationalists all over the world by the
[AC] mid-1970ies started to realize, that Armenian Republic is not at all what
[AC] they are dreamed of. 

What do you base this on, for you use such conclusion to justify the following
statements?

[AC] It remainded mostly agrarian, very few industries,
[AC] almost no industrial network, despite huge injections of money and ideas
[AC] from the Armenians who lived abroad. 

This is not true, besides you contradict yourelf later on. If Armenia was 
mostly agrarian, they would not have a food problem today. During the time 
period you chose, Armenia had the highest percentage of college educated 
citizens and the highest standard of living of all Soviet Republics. You must 
know that the only nuclear plant in the Caucasus is in Armenia. Agrarian 
societies do not need nuclear plants. Armenia was most likely second only to 
Moscow in computer technology, it was perhaps better than the facilities in 
Minsk. Also, agrarian societies do not generate thousands of college 
applicants.

There was never a huge injection of money into Armenia from the Armenian
Diaspora. This is totally false. If there was any injection of Armenian money
from the Armenian Diaspora it went to help Armenians in Lebanon during that 
civil war. Armenians didn't give money to the USSR.

[AC] Armenia did not becaome the center
[AC] of the Armenian culture - actually Armenians continued to leave Armenia
[AC] and seek better life abroad (Armenians who left Armenia in 1980ies were
[AC] very much hated by their brethren in the US, material about it appeared
[AC] constantly in Russian-American papers). 

Yes, some Armenians left Armenia, as did Russians leave Russia, as did
Ukrainians, etc., This does not mean that Armenia was not Armenia. Is 
Azerbaijan less of a center of Azeri society because Azeris like you are in 
the United States?

[AC] Armenia did not become the center
[AC] of Armenian civilization - most talented Armenian scientists continued to
[AC] work for Russians in Russian scientific institutions (and do that untill
[AC] now). Armenia did not become the center of gravity for Armenians all over
[AC] the world - Armeninas from Lebanon seeked asylum in the US, not in
[AC] Armenia.

Do you know how many Armenian re-patriated from Lebanon, Syria, Greece, France,
etc., just after WWII, when Stalin announced that Armenia has opened its
doors to all Armenians to return? Many tens of thousands, and among them was
the current President of Armenia, who was born in Aleppo, Syria.

By the 1970's who would go to the Soviet Union, Soviet Armenia if you will,
when they could go to Los Angeles? For the same reason you are in the United
States and not in Baku!

[AC] But Russian started to enter its period of decline and some
[AC] hot-heads in Armenian Nationalistic establishment apparently decided to
[AC] use the situation. Not at all I am trying to compare what happend to the
[AC] practicies of Hitlerism, the similarities is only in strategy. Hitler had
[AC] to involve the German population in Jew-hunting to cover every decent
[AC] German pair of hand in blood, knowing that after that they will do
[AC] whatever he want them to. This is a criminal practice of "involving". But
[AC]it is not neccesary to do it that way - the involving could be done in a
[AC] variety of different ways - in this case it was doen by sacrificing the
[AC] lives and the quality of life od Armenians who lived in Azerbaijan.

Well, Mr. Chaihorsky, the Azeris in Sumgait, Baku, and Kirovabad, did hunt
down Armenians like dogs! But that is not the point, the point is that 
perhaps, just perhaps, the old Russian technique of buffering itself with 
peripheral peoples, and keeping those peripheral people in turmoil, never 
occurred to you. What better way to whip Azerbaijan than to use the Armenians 
in Karabakh! The only thing better than the Armenians in Karabakh to keep 
Azerbaijan a satellite of Russia is to cause a movement among the Lezgians of 
Azerbaijan. But why take the difficult route? The Armenians in Karabakh, with 
a little encouragement from Yerevan, would generate the necessary turmoil in 
Azerbaijan. In addition, to causing problems in Azerbaijan, such a Russian 
strategy would serve a similar policy in Armenia. If you read my paper, _The 
Armenian-Azeri Conflict_, you would note how both Armenia and Azerbaijan were 
simple puppets of the larger powers.  

[AC] Armenians in Azerbaijan had had it really good - most of the doctors,
[AC] lawers, small business owners, scientists, and all other "higher-class"
[AC] jobs had much bigger percentage of Armenians than Azeris. Azeris were
[AC] typically oil-industry workers, cotton-industry collective farm workers
[AC] and party boys.

Armenians "had it good" in places like Baku and Kirovabad -- not Karabakh! 

[AC] It was very difficult for Armenian nationalists to argue
[AC] with these people - they did not want to leave Azerbaijan, they had lots
[AC] of friends among Azeris, and they behaved as all diasporic people who
[AC] enjoyed good life in the countries of diaspora - they did not listen, let
[AC] alone support financially the Pan-Armenian ideas. All that came to the
[AC] end with a very simple plan - through Azeris from Armenia, get Azeris in
[AC] Azerbaijan mad, let them kick Armenians out of Azerbaijan and create
[AC] enourmous pressure that will hopefully create more Pan-Armenian
[AC] solidarity, create more materials to build Armenian state history, drag
[AC] more Armenians from diaspora - all that in an attempt to kick-start
[AC] Armeian State.

Are you nuts? This is like saying the Jews caused the Germans to engage in
genocide to force European Jews into supporting Zionist goals in Palestine!!!
I have heard once too much in this forum that the victims are at fault!

I have heard from certain fools in soc.culture.turkish that Armenians caused
their own massacres at the turn of the century to gain attention from Europe.
I have not heard such garbage in the Soviet newsgroups before. You sir, are 
the first to claim that Armenians welcomed Azeris pogroms!

[AC] Armenian nationalists do not give a damn about an Armenian
[AC] in diaspora - theuy want all Armenians in Armenia, statehood is their
[AC] goal, not the fate of the people. Now the whole Armenian nation was
[AC] INVOLVED - two hundred thpousands of Azerbaijan Armenians were thrown out
[AC] of Azerbaijan, hundreds were killed during Baku uprising (or pogrom),
[AC] international media get involved, etc. I think that it was a tragic 
[AC] mistake. 

Since your premise is flawed, so is your conclusion. Your conclusion is based 
on grossly incorrect facts. You fault the Armenians for everything including
the pogroms in Baku. If the Armenians we so "cunning" in their abilities why
have they not taken Karabakh, and further, why are they unable to feed and
heat themselves? It's either one or the other, either Armenians are capable of
changing geo-politics outside their borders or not! 

[AC] I think that Armenia had had much
[AC] better chance to enter 21 century as a strategic ally of the States of
[AC] Azerbaijan and Georgia. 

Well, we finally agree! However, Georgia is in sad state of affairs. I suppose
the Armenians are to blame for Georgia's problems too? All ground transport of
food, etc., bound for Armenia, today, as we speak, is totally robbed for 
Tiflis is short of food. Can you believe it...Tiflis has food shortages!

Before any of these three states come together in a mutual alliance, Georgia
especially must address its minority problems. There are over a quarter 
million Azeris in Georgia (who may be expelled at any time), about half 
million Armenians, and a myriad of smaller peoples. The place may never 
recover its previous unity. Georgians act unilaterally too much in what they 
consider their own best interests to be much benefit to its minorities. One 
need only read the history of the Transcaucasian Federation of 1917 to review 
the actions of the Georgians who signed secret treaties the the Turks, neither 
in the interest of the Azeris nor Armenians -- all to keep Tiflis intact -- 
but Baku suffered! As a resul by 1919 Georgia was in so much turmoil, wheat 
shipments from the Ukraine to Armenia couldn't make it through Georgia into 
Armenia! Please note we are discussing 1919, not 1992! How history repeats 
itself! It seems today, the Georgians have little strategic advantage to put 
on the table, because of its internal chaos. I consider Armenia and Azerbaijan 
to be two out the three who may reach a substantial agreement of mutual 
interest before either do with Georgia. 
 
[AC] The Armenians had all the needed resourses to
[AC] develop their country once out of the Russian control. Azerbaijan and
[AC] Georgia did not have massive population abroad, trained, wealthy, mobile,
[AC] dedicated. Armenia could become economical Israel of the Transcaucassin
[AC] region. Nowe this chance is lost. Now the life standards in Armenia is
[AC] below that of underdeveloped Africa. Epidemies, hunger, frustration. No
[AC] friendly neighbours, no support from the West (and there will be no
[AC] support from the West - untill all territorial claims by the Karabakh
[AC] Armenians will be withdrawn - the West cannot punish Saddam Hussein for
[AC] the occupation of the Kuwait and support Armenian occupation of the
[AC] Karabakh. How could anybody in the sane state if their minds think
[AC] otherwise?)

It is unfortunate the Armenian people, believing in the principles of
Peristroyka and Glasnost, were fooled, for both concepts turned out to be
piles of garbage. The 70 years of protest by the Armenians of Karabakh were 
finally to be addressed! What a joke!, like Gorbachev himself!

[AC] Again, you might hate me, you might dump all the sarcasm in the world on
[AC] me, call me ignorant slut, whatever. But if the destiny of your youth is
[AC] important to you - try to calm down and start thinking again. Thinking
[AC] did not do any damage to anyone yet.

No, Mr. Chaihorsky, I do not hate you. You may have your perspective, but you
have not acted like your friend, Marc Lipsits, who publicly insulted and
lambasted an entire people and leadership. That is racism, and a descriptor 
such as ignorant slut is mild.

[AC] A am a descendant of a noble Azeri family. Our family lived on the shores
[AC] of lake Sevan, in a turkish villaje Chaihorly. My grandfather was an
[AC] educated man, and a very wealthy one, who had to move his family out of
[AC] its home because of the Armenian terror. It happened in 1920ies. Our
[AC] marble palace was a home for local Party Commitee in the Soviet times.
[AC] That did not make any of us Armenian haters. All my life I was told by my
[AC] elderly - there was blood between us, we must do whatever we can to bury
[AC] it, to be civilized, to be friendly to Armenians, their sufferings are
[AC] our sufferings, we must live side by side as good neigyhbours, like
[AC] Germans and French, no more violence. Apparently not everybody taught
[AC] their youth that way. And apparently many Azeris did not teach their
[AC] young that, but Armenians made the hate teachings a policy. You can say
[AC] whatever you want, but I was present during all these mass hysteria
[AC] gatherings, I've heard toasts to "get Ararat back", etc. Everyone who had
[AC] close contact with masses of Armenian knows that nationalism and racism
[AC] was a distinctive feature of that group of Soviet population.

Oh yes, and I am to conclude the flag of the Grey Wolf painted on the uniforms 
of Azeris soldiers means little? Armenians teach their children their history, 
and that history included the horrible genocide that took Ararat from the 
Armenians and today it faces the people of Yerevan like a murdered child is 
brought to the doorstep of his mother. If that sounds too nationalist for you, 
that is too bad, history is history, as is the memory of a million and a half 
Armenians slain with inpunity so Turkey can have exclusive domain over the 
lands of my grandfathers. 

[AC] It is better to be an Armenian that anybody else, Armenian culture is more
[AC] sophisticated, Armenian language is most ancient, Armenian people is most
[AC] smart, etc. I think that this is wrong. And that is exactly what Mark
[AC] tried to tell you - but you do not listen, you are empowered by hate,
[AC] hate, hate, hate.

Oh, spare us! Perhaps you can tell in what city the tenets of pan-Turanism 
were first expounded? It was not Istanbul! Perhaps you can tell us why a major
Azeris news agency is called Turan, the ancient mythical "land of Turks" as
put to the pen by Ziya Gokalp who served as the ideological engine for the
Young Turks movement, culminating the genocide of the Armenians.

[AC] Nobody but our young will pay for our mistakes. Nobody. The Armenians
[AC] lost their position in Baku industries, in Russian science, Armenia is in
[AC] the state of distress. I guess it is not enough for Armenian
[AC] nationalists. They will prefer the hungry nation that obeys than the
[AC] wealthy people that has their own ideas.

Yes, the Armenians lost their positions in Baku, however, have you been to
Moscow as of late? Again, blame the victims!

[AC] Two days ago I sended a mesage to D. Davidian, asking for an address of a
[AC] non-military charity organizations where I can send some financial help.
[AC] No answer. 

The above is part of the answer. And below is the rest! In addition, you claim
the Armenians in Karabakh hated to learn Azeri? True, they had to learn 
Russian as well. Now before you made something out of nothing, less than 20%
of the Azeris living in Armenia could speak Armenian, even though they could
learn Azeri, Russian, as well as Armenian in Armenia!

[AC] I guess they do not take US dollars from bloody Turk, eh? Not
[AC] only I want to send help, I promised to ask my friends to do the same.
[AC] When a request to help Armenians comes from an Azerbaijani, people
[AC] usually give more than usual.

Mr. Chaihorsky, there is no fund! Go and read every English-language, Russian-
language Armenian newspsper, and you will see that this great Armenian
Diaspora has no fund where you nor I can send our money! You can't even send
your money to the "Armenian nationalists", because they really don't exist, in
practice! Even if there were a fund to help a near-starving Armenia, how will
food get through the chaos in Georgia, how will food get through the Azeris
embargo of Armenia...not even the mafias can cross these realities.

If indeed you wish to help, I suggest you call your representative in 
Washington, for given the current stranglehold around Armenia, only a massive
airlift can bring food into Armenia. 

[AC] I am concerned about innocent lives, children, man and women who were
[AC] brain- washed. I am concerned about the future of your people - will
[AC] Armenians start building their country or will bury themselvews into
[AC] endless terror and vengeance? Will Karabakh become a Belfast of the 21
[AC] century? Will it?

If I were an Azeri, I would wonder what will happen to Azerbaijan when the 
youth who participated the anti-Armenian pogroms in Azerbaijan come to power 
in Baku some day! As an Armenian, I shutter in horror! 

I don't think that Karabakh will be a Belfast, because the fight is not over 
religion, it's geopolitics. For all we know there could be treaty in the works 
as we speak.

[AC] It's up to us, gardash.

Inshallah!

[AC] Alex Chaihorsky. San Francisco, CA.



-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org "It has been ever thus in all things, son, 
SDPA Center for Regional Studies    Whatever we thrash we give to the wind, 
P.O. Box 382761                     We too have been blown by the world's wind
Cambridge, MA 02238                 The chaff is gone but the grain remains."