From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com>
Subject: I * V
Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com>
Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 04:12:24 GMT

To: >INTERNET:fusion@zorch.sf-bay.org

Hoping to pour oil on troubled waters, and not on a bonfire, let me say David
Buehler and Steve Jones are right, most of the time Notoya left the control
cell at lower power level than the CF cell, in order to compensate for power
lost to electrolysis. However, I believe that from time to time she showed it
to people, and disassembled it, and so on, and she adjusted the power to
demonstrate other aspects of the system, so it is possible that Buehler
observed it with different power levels at different times. On the last day,
she and I were having a good time playing around with it. This is a hands-on
demo after all, not a strict lab experiment. It is merely intended to give
people a feel for the kind of results she is getting back at the lab.

Some people have suggested she bring "a better calorimeter." I remind everyone
that she is not allowed to schlepp a ton of lab equipment and computers into
the overhead compartment on airplanes. If you want to see the real experiment,
go to Hokkaido.

Three more quick notes on this, and then let us drop the subject until Dec. 3,
when we can run this mini-experiment again with thick, uniform, silver wires.
First, the settling time for the glass jar is about 15 or 20 minutes, which is
convenient, it lets you demonstrate a variety of different power levels.
Second, when you adjust both cells to exactly the same power in (ignoring
recombination) you see there is still a substantially higher temperature in the
CF cell. Third, Notoya tossed the old silver wire, so she can't say how
resistant it was, but she doubts very much that 6 cm of silver wire thick
enough to be visable could possibly offer as much resistance as a 4 cm nichrome
heater, which is what is in the cell. I doubt it too. In fact, I think the very
suggestion is preposterous. I expect Buehler made some kind of error when he
moved the alligator clips. I do *not* think he is kidding, or lying, I am sure
he believes what he says. I suggest Bueler and Jones might want to run one more
little mini-experiment, if they have 15 minutes to spare: measure the
resistance of the thinnest silver wire you find (or see), and then measure the
resistance of a 4 cm nichrome heater, and report back to us if they are the
same.


In my brief review of the light water work, I forgot to mention Tom Droege.
Sorry Tom! Tom says:

"My results were that there are problems in assuming that the 
1.48*I correction is valid."

Notoya measured the gas that evolved from the cell and found that it was the
amount predicted by this standard factor for light water electrolysis. I
believe Noninski also measured the gas, but I am not sure. Notoya and
Srinivasan also both measured far more heat than the total input I * V, so even
if there is recombination on the nickel cathode, it is not an issue.

Tom predicts:

"When [the light water experiment is] done in closed form, for a very long
time, with the energy balance measured from the start of the experiment, and
with equally good instrumentation; the experiment will be null."

This would be a good test, but based upon my conversations with people who
doing the light water experiments, I have several cautions and warnings to
anyone who wishes to try this:

Keep everything as clean as possible. The light water systems do not like
conventional recombiner materials. Throw one of those dirty things in the cell,
and "you can kiss it goodby."

Get a lot of practice with "open" cells first. Be sure you exceed I * V.

If possible, use a separate recombiner. Tom did this, as I recall. One person
told me, "be sure it is *really* separate, you don't want gunk going back up
the tube."

Maybe a fuel cell arrangement would be clean? I don't know the details.


Dick Blue comments: "Since this experiment is conducted in 'vacuum' it is time
to give Jed a little review of what that word means..." Well, Dick, I believe
Yamaguchi said it was 10 ^ -8 torr. That sounds pretty vacuuous to me, kind of
like your knowledge of what Yamaguchi is doing. I notice that you immediately
started making fun of Yamaguchi, and attacking him, and asking "when will he
get serious," and then from time to time you stopped and asked questions like:

"Is this being done in a vacuum or in a liquid"

"Is he using a mass spec?"

Such questions indicate that you have not got the foggiest, vaugest idea of
what he is doing, or even what kind of instruments he is using, and that you
have jumped to the conclusion that he is incompetant without knowing anything
at all about him! I bet you have never heard of the guy. You are asking
elementary questions about the experiment which reveal that you have not even
seen the abstract, not to mention the full paper. In my opinion, you are are
making a fool of yourself.

- Jed

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