HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Number of numbers (Was Re: PI)
Date: 21 Jan 93 02:47:09 GMT
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <1993Jan20.195603.11987@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> baylor@NEBULA.SSD.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
 > In article <1993Jan19.211613.6498@wam.umd.edu>, davei@wam.umd.edu (The One True Dave) writes:
 > >I think what that def needs is a 
 > >d) that says: For any positive integer n, n' - n = 1.
This is outside the axioms.  Whan you axiomatically define the numbers
the difference between a number and its successor is 1 (or rather e, the
unit), by definition.

 > Howabout a definition that the set of all integers (positive and negative)
 > is the set of numbers that have the following property:
 > You cannot create a number outside the set by the operations 
 > of addition, subtraction, or multiplication, but you can create a 
 > number outside the set by division.
Interesting, so only the multiples of 3 are integers.

The problem with the readers is that they read the Axioms as posted and
immediately applied it to something they know about.  The Axioms were just
a set of rules that would rule arithmetic.  If you want to assign different
symbols to the entities defined by those rules (like assigning 1.5 to what
most people call 2 as the successor of 1) you are free to do that (but expect
some confusion).  The rules give no indication at all about how to write the
things you define on paper.
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: dik@cwi.nl
From: aj923@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (P. J. Remner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Pentia
Date: 27 Jan 1993 01:41:16 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aj923@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (P. J. Remner)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith) says:

>If a "586" is a Pentium (pl. Pentia?), then are 386s trivia?
>

Nice.  I'm using a Quadrium right now (man, Apple would be PISSED if
Intel called the 486 the "Quadrium", sounds too much like Quadra), and
I have a bidium in my room.  But, what's an 8088?


PS - I'm going to call the new 64-bit wunderkomputer a 586.  Pentium
sounds like a new model Lexus or Infiniti.  I hate Lexus and Infiniti,
but that belongs in rec.autos.japanese.pretentious.  As Dvorak said,
what are they going to call the P6?  Sextium?  Will it be pronounced
"sex-tee-um" or "sext-yum"?  I mean, REALLY.

-- 
aj923@cleveland.freenet.edu (Nmetic polyalloy)								DestructoTab copy protect
			      _______________________							     /  ___________________(_)				
			    /  /\__________________							   /  /_/________________(_)				
			  /______________________							  \____________________(_)
From: sverkerw@csd.uu.se (Sverker Wiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know you've been playing games too long when...
Date: 26 Jan 1993 17:50:17 GMT
Organization: CS, University of Uppsala, Sweden
NNTP-Posting-Host: minsk.docs.uu.se
In-reply-to: aldavi01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu's message of Sun, 24 Jan 1993 18:10:17 GMT

aldavi01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (Arlie Davis) writes:
   You just be relieved; at least one of you didn't have to block the other, and
   thus be blown up later.
If you dig under the blocker (making it fall), it will start walking. Then you have to stop the digger.
--
Sverker Wiberg  <sverkerw@student.docs.uu.se>
  o===[----	Klia din hund p} magen.
Organization: Valencia Uiversity (Universitat de Valencia) SPAIN
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:36:04 EST
From: Werenfried Spit <SPIT@EVALUN11.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Vestiges of FORTRAN, Memes and Syntax (Was: Re: i is for iteration
 <JBC.93Jan26113305@beowulf.linus.mitre.org>

John B. Campbell dixit:
> It's hard for most computer folks to imagine a world without computers,
> but really, there once was.
>
> Pick up any engineering or mathematics textbook of the middle fifties,
> and observe that all the variables used for indexing (e.g. in
> series expressions) are taken from the set i, j, k, and l.  The


Joe Morris dixit:
> >I believe (definitely the case in my instance) that it's from FORTRAN.
>
> Um...fellows, please don't lose sight of the fact that mathematical
> notation existed long before the electronic computer arrived on the
> scene. I haven't any idea just where the use of {i, j, k,...} began but
> it far predates the computer age, and was almost certainly the reason
> for the decision of the original FORTRAN committee to carve out a
> block of letters in the middle of the alphabet and declare them to
> be the default integer initial characters.


I've been following this thread for a while and I'm utterly amazed
that it has taken some two weeks (or so) before someone makes these
remarks; although previously a few people suggested that mathematicians
invented this use of i,j and k, and someone even cited Fourier, articles
attributing the usage to fortran or something similar kept pouring in.

I think John is right: a lot of computer folks cannot imagine that
there are things predating computers, and that computer designs and
traditions even borrow ideas from the non-computer world.

On a related key (although in some respect just the opposite): some
time ago in comp.text.tex someone complained that things like '10e-6'
are not estetically pleasing in print. He needed to be informed about
the existence of superscript notation for exponentials, and that the
'e'-notation was just a manner of trying to circumvent the problem of
not having superscripts available in plain text files like computer
programs.

Oh well.
Time to get back to work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Werenfried Spit                         tel: +34-6-386 4550
  Departament de Fisica Teorica         spit@vm.ci.uv.es
  Universitat de Valencia               spit@evalun11.bitnet
From: s.telford@ed.ac.uk (Scott Telford)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: What one-liner, joke, saying would you like to see on a T-shirt
Date: 27 Jan 93 13:38:13 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre, University of Edinburgh, UK.

In article <1kFxkp#63KbfC9jdVtf5SPfqc4Hf8Wq=esr@snark.thyrsus.com>,
esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) writes:

> #3:
>                                /dev/null

Shouldn't that be "/nev/dull" in large-ish Courier? (where did those
T-shirts come from?)

A CS class here got some T-shirts made up with 

     "NFS server not responding - still trying"

on the back. I think a lot of people could relate to that 8^)

One of the funniest sayings I've seen was 

  "No, I'm a member of the X Users Group, not the ex-users group"

which I think I found in a README somewhere in the X11R3 distribution.
Sorry, can't remember who wrote it, probably someone quite famous in X
circles...

-- 
Scott Telford, Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre,        <s.telford@ed.ac.uk>
University of Edinburgh, Mayfield Rd, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK. (+44 31 650 5978)
------- Rollin' over like a big, big cloud/Walkin' out in the Big Sky! --------
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology
From: kibo@world.std.com (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: What one-liner, joke, saying would you like to see on a T-shirt
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 06:09:19 GMT

[alt.folklore.computers]
In article <1k4ohiINNir6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aj923@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (P. J. Remner) writes:
>In a previous article, sunday@cup.portal.com (Sunday and Associates) says:
>>	We are preparing a commercial release of T-shirts intended for
>>the Usenet civilization and related societies. We would like to solicit
>>your thoughts about what *saying*, slogan, one-liner, joke (including
>>visual) you would like to see on a t-shirt. 
>
>I've always like "You can't be too thin, too rich, or have too many
>clock cycles."  But then again, there's "Kibo is an international
>conspiracy of one.  The only problem is, he has the other six billion
>or so of us outnumbered."

"international"?  I've never left the USA, because I'd feel lost without
a combination deep-fried-hamburger-and-aerosol-deodorant stand on every
corner.
							-- K.

Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:19417 alt.religion.kibology:6121
From: mcirvin@husc8.harvard.edu (Matt McIrvin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: What one-liner, joke, saying would you like to see on a T-shirt
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:34:17 GMT

kibo@world.std.com (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:

>"international"?  I've never left the USA, because I'd feel lost without
>a combination deep-fried-hamburger-and-aerosol-deodorant stand on every
>corner.
>							-- K.

Nonsense.  Sufficiently big net celebrities obviously exist in a
delocalized manner, smeared all over the globe with particularly
strong concentrations in the US, UK, Australia, NZ, Norway and Finland.
If you choose to imagine that you're really in Boston, well, that's
your business.
-- 
Matt McIrvin
From: frank@rover.uchicago.edu (Frank - Hardware Hacker - Borger)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: So you want to be an apprentice
Keywords: Everybody wants to be a wizzard, but we forget that before we become wizzards, we have to be apprentices sometime. We all forget
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:38:00 GMT
Reply-To: frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Organization: Joint Center for Radiation Therapy
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1k527cINN3b3@lynx.unm.edu>, kogoma@triton.unm.edu (Taki Kogoma) writes...
>In article <26JAN199311152931@rover.uchicago.edu> frank@rover.uchicago.edu writes:
>>
>>	MOV	(R1)+,R5	;YEAR IN R5
>>	BIT	#3,R5		;IS YEAR DIVISIBLE BY 4?
>At the risk of reopening a well-known can or worms, this code fails to
>take into account the "No leap-year in '00' years except those which
>are evenly divisible by 400" stipulation...

	Which means that it will fail in 2100, but not 2000. This leads to
	the real question. "How long should code last?"

	I do know that both PDP-8 and PDP-11 coders failed to adaquately
	account for the longevity of their code. Nobody at the time thought
	they would be writing for the year 2000, or they would not have
	expressed the date as 01-jan-xx.

	My own feeling is that I will definitely try to plan for the possible
	contingency that I will still be around when some limitation hits,
	(since I will probably be given the job of fixing it.) Therefore
	I consider that I will have to support RSX in the year 2000, but
	not 2100, (unless medicine makes some real break-thru in a couple of
	years.)

   Frank R. Borger - Physicist    __       George Halas had two heirs; one
Michael Reese - Univ. of Chicago |___      carried his seed and one carried his
  Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _   soul. ... One can imagine the wisper
net:  Frank@rover.uchicago.edu     | \|_)  of George Halas, rooting for his
fon: 312-791-8075 fax: 567-7455       |_)  soul. - Jeannie Morris
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: adax@cosy.sbg.ac.at (Adi Dax)
Subject: Re: You know you've been playing games too
Reply-To: adax@cosy.sbg.ac.at
Organization: University of Salzburg / Austria
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:05:34 GMT

In article 186@actew.oz.au, ina_craig@actew.oz.au (Craig Alexander) writes:
>In article <_dm3jvq@rpi.edu>, jonesr2@aix02.ecs.rpi.edu (Kazrak) writes:
>> Today, I determined that I've been playing Lemmings too long.  How?  Well,
>> when my fiancee and I were approaching the door to her building and I was
>> trying to figure out how one of us could unlock the door without the other
>> bouncing off and heading in the other direction, I figured I was a goner.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Roger "Kazrak" Jones, Jr. is: jonesr2@rpi.edu, userham1@rpitsmts.bitnet
>> "The line between good and evil, hope and despair, does not divide the world
>> between 'us' and 'them.'  It runs down the middle of each one of us."
>>                                                 -Robert Fulghum
>
>I have heard stories of the game Tetris affecting people like this but much
>more severely. Some people have said that they have gotten to the stage where
>they can play tetris in their heads without needing a computer. 
>
>Craig

I had a similar experience after playing Chinese Checkers on the computer for a couple of months. After that I started to play CC with nearly everything, e.g  pictures on a wall, windows of a building, the passengers in a bus. 

llap,

adax

---
[===================================================================]
[        Adi Dax                  |   Student of CS                 ]
[    adax@cosy.sbg.ac.at          |   University Salzburg/Austria   ]
[-------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ hmm.........                                                      ]
[===================================================================]                                       

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jonesr2@aix02.ecs.rpi.edu (Kazrak)
Subject: You know you've been playing games too long when...
Keywords: lemmings games
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 04:21:24 GMT

Today, I determined that I've been playing Lemmings too long.  How?  Well,
when my fiancee and I were approaching the door to her building and I was
trying to figure out how one of us could unlock the door without the other
bouncing off and heading in the other direction, I figured I was a goner.

-- 
Roger "Kazrak" Jones, Jr. is: jonesr2@rpi.edu, userham1@rpitsmts.bitnet
"The line between good and evil, hope and despair, does not divide the world
between 'us' and 'them.'  It runs down the middle of each one of us."
                                                -Robert Fulghum
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki)
Subject: Re: You know you've been playing games too
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 05:28:29 GMT

In article <C1GsHB.1Jo@cosy.sbg.ac.at> adax@cosy.sbg.ac.at writes:
>I had a similar experience after playing Chinese Checkers on the computer for a couple of months. After that I started to play CC with nearly everything, e.g  pictures on a wall, windows of a building, the passengers in a bus. 

I've found that tile floors make a much more challengeing opponent.

>[        Adi Dax                  |   Student of CS                 ]
>[    adax@cosy.sbg.ac.at          |   University Salzburg/Austria   ]

-- 
Jason Balicki | kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: The Leader Desslok School of Diplomacy
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 03:15:08 EST
From: Mark 'Mark' Sachs <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: VIC-20 returns!
 <JUHANA.RASANEN.93Jan25181531@lk-hp-13.hut.fi> <C1FBM8.5nF@mach1.wlu.ca>
 <1993Jan26.043246.2102@d-and-d.com>

In article <1993Jan26.043246.2102@d-and-d.com>, dnichols@d-and-d.com (DoN.
Nichols) says:

>In article <C1FBM8.5nF@mach1.wlu.ca> brea9430@mach1.wlu.ca (breadner ken u)
>writes:
>>VIC-20? Luxury. My first computer was a TRS-80 Color Computer. We sprang
>>for the 16K model, and I remember people asking us what we did with all
>>that memory.

>A COCO - Extreme Luxury.  *My* first computer was a MITS Altair 680b (*NO*

Well, you know we had it tough...

True, though, my first computer was either a VIC-20 (which I still
have, although the keyboard has sorta seized up you can still play a wicked
game of Radar Rat Race and Choplifter on it [btw, remember how you could use
the function keys in Choplifter to shift the whole screen off to one side,
and it would become more and more garbled as you did so...? Ah, those
were the days...]) or... a Sinclair ZX-81. Yes, complete with the horrible
16K RAM pack that would fall out of its socket and crash the machine.

I still have it in a little cardboard box at home. I should fire it up and
see if it still works...

     "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets."
[Your blood pressure just went up.]        Mark Sachs IS: mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu
   DISCLAIMER: Penn State University cares about my money, not my opinions.
From: alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: i is for iteration
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:01:05 GMT+12
Distribution: world
Organization: Muppet Labs

In article <C13J9p.ABA@brunel.ac.uk> cs92njc@ccws-39.brunel.ac.uk.ac.uk (Nicholas J Clayton) writes:
>
>Does anyone know the circumstances that surround "i" being adopted as the
>most common name for a variable in a loop, "for(i = 0; i < 10; i++)" and so
>on. Is it simply becuase it is the first letter of "iterate" or do the
>reasons run deeper than that?

(Um ... how about doing us all a favour and sticking carriage returns into
your posts?)

I've always assumed it was carried over from Fortran. In older versions of
Fortran, integer variables started with the letters I to N (if I remember
rightly), so it was natural to use I, J, etc as loop-counter variables. A lot
of programmers (including me) kept the habit when we learned other languages
like C. (It's been 14 years since I wrote any Fortran code, and something like
"int x;" still makes me uncomfortable :-)

On the other hand, I've seen the same thing in a lot of Basic code, and I'm
sure most Basic programmers didn't learn Fortran first. Either there were
enough ex-Fortranners in the early days of Basic (with its one-letter variable
names) to establish the habit, or people simply used the first letter of
'index' (seems more likely than 'iterate').

--
...... Ross Smith (Wanganui, NZ) ...... alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ......
"I blame you for the moonlit sky and the dream that died with the Eagle's flight
I blame you for the moonlit nights when I wonder why are the seas still dry
Don't blame me, sleeping satellite"                              (Tasmin Archer)
--
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: cline@cs.scarolina.edu (Ernest Cline)
Subject: Re: Pentia
Reply-To: cline@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:19:35 GMT

st1g9@rosie.uh.edu (Lee Preimesberger) writes:

|alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith) writes...
|#If a "586" is a Pentium (pl. Pentia?), then are 386s trivia?
|
|	Hmm, then I guess the P6 will be ye-cleppen the "Sexium."  I can 
|hardly wait for the ads! :-)
|
|			  Lee Preimesberger
|st1g9@jetson.uh.edu ----- Undergraduate Scum ----- University of Houston, USA

No, not all the P6 will be the truly magical "Hexium."
Of course the really hep chip to use will be the P7.
-- 
     Ernest Cline     cline@cs.scarolina.edu     Professional Grad Student
From: alecm@coyote.uk.sun.com (Alec Muffett - Sun IS -  System Administrator)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Vestiges of FORTRAN, Memes and Syntax (Was: Re: i is for iteration)
Date: 19 Jan 1993 13:22:21 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems (UK) Ltd
Distribution: world
Reply-To: alecm@coyote.uk.sun.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: coyote.uk.sun.com

In article ABA@brunel.ac.uk,  cs92njc@ccws-39.brunel.ac.uk.ac.uk (Nicholas J Clayton) writes:

>Does anyone know the circumstances that surround "i" being adopted as
>the most common name for a variable in a loop, "for(i = 0; i < 10;
>i++)" and so on. Is it simply becuase it is the first letter of
>"iterate" or do the reasons run deeper than that?

I believe (definitely the case in my instance) that it's from FORTRAN.

Since any variable with a name starting with a letter in the range
[I-N] was automatically INteger, without having to undergo formal
declaration, you could safely:

	DO 30, I=1,10
C	-WHATEVER-
30	CONTINUE

Hence "I" was the easiest integer "scratch variable" name that you
could use as a name in a DO loop...

It therefore follows why "J" is the usually the next most common
loop-variable name (when iterating within an outer loop), and why
people rarely chose scratch variable names in the ranges [A-HO-W].
Variables X, Y, and Z were (are?) rarely used for anything other than
cartesian coordinates, for obvious reasons...

Allow for years of meme-reinforcement through ex-FORTRAN programmers
writing the standard texts describing "new" programming languages like
"C"  (8-), invariably using "I" as a loop counter, and we have the
situation today.

Could it be, then, that FORTRAN variable syntax was one of the first
"memetic viruses", earlier even than the modern ".sig virus", and lives
on in the ecology of computing today as a kind of vermiform "appendix"?

Hmmm... Perhaps Eric woiuld be interested in this...

	- alec

---
Alec Muffett (alec.muffett@sun.co.uk) Sun Microsystems IR, Bagshot, Surrey, UK
                         #include <stddisclaimer.h>


Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: shyamal@seas.smu.edu (Shyamal Prasad)
Subject: Re: i is for iteration
Organization: SMU - School of Engineering & Applied Science - Dallas
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:13:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.174905.2641@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> baylor@NEBULA.SSD.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>
>Well, we ever disregard this long tradition I recommend starting 
>the loops with j. (Why? Because it doesn't show up in any of the
>commonly used commands, and I haven't found it in many of my 
>mnemonic variable names, so it's easy to do a search on.)

Just *what* is the problem with using I as an iteration variable?  It
sticks in with math notation, every one uses it (a useful thing in a
world where standards are a big deal) and there is still one more
"obscure" reason to use it - it indicates that it is an integer
because the word starts with I. Even doing a search on i is not much
worse than j - your loops should not be so large that it be :-)

This is not so trivial - I use a sort of "Hungarian Notation" where one
indicates the type of the variable as part of its name, and I found it
easy to use I as an integer loop counter whenever I needed one.

Incidentally I might add I have had a mixed experience with the so called
"Hungarian notation". For all variables that have a scope spread over more
than a page of code I think the idea really helps. For program wide 
globals it has always paid off!

Oh, just a little digression ....

Shyamal

-- 
Shyamal Prasad, Department of Computer Science
Southern Methodist University, Dallas TX 72275
From: ath@linkoping.trab.se (Anders Thulin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: HISTORY OF WORD PROCESSING
Date: 28 Jan 93 07:49:06 GMT
Organization: Telia Research AB, Teknikringen 2B, S-583 30 Linkoping, Sweden

In article <NICKEL.93Jan27125457@tempest.cs.tu-berlin.de> nickel@cs.tu-berlin.de writes:

>My memory is vague, but wasn't "Electric [or Electronic] Pencil" on
>the Apple ][ the first word processing program on a PC?

There are some signs there were some word processor even earlier.
In one of Omar Khayyam's quatrains we find a clear indication to
a very early release of Moving Finger:

	The Moving finger writes, and having writ
	moves on. Nor all thay piety nor wit
	shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
	nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.

(or something very close to that.)

Sounds like a rather bad beta release without any way to delete lines.

:-) of course.

-- 
Anders Thulin        ath@linkoping.trab.se        013-23 55 32
Telia Research AB, Teknikringen 2B, S-583 30 Linkoping, Sweden
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: adam@owlnet.rice.edu (Adam Justin Thornton)
Subject: Re: You know you've been playing games too long when...
Organization: Milo's Meadow
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:24:29 GMT

In article <C1IKIG.Kzv@newcastle.ac.uk> Benjamin.Dobson@newcastle.ac.uk (Ben Dobson) writes:
>Now where can I place that long thin one.

alt.sex, probably.

Adam
-- 
"And in the heartbreak years that lie ahead, |++| adam@rice.edu |++| Cthulhu
 Be true to yourself and the Grateful Dead." --Joan Baez  | 64,928 | fthagn!
"Very often, a common stone, thrown away and despised, is worth more than
 a cow." -- Paracelsus | If these were Rice's opinions I'd shoot myself.
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:19264 comp.arch:12392 comp.sys.intel:3108