From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Why Gordon Is a Feminist
Date: 14 Oct 92 03:43:00 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Organization: The Piranha Club

In article <1992Oct13.161508.17097@panix.com> 
gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:

Hillel:
| You can't understand men who have life experiences which are *different*
| than yours, and you will not change your theory so it will fit reality.

>I doubt if you know which men have life experiences which
>differ from mine, and which don't, and whether I can
>understand them or not; 

My experience in the job & university market is pretty different
from what you describe, and you have no clue about what it might
be, and you don't even want to know.  You are so fixed on the Old
Boys that you can't *see* any other men.

gf:
>| >There's no credible movement to 
>| >liberate them -- except feminism, of course.

hg:
| In what ways feminism "liberates" men?

| Please tell me about actions.  (And leave the long stories
| about your good intentions to some other time.)

>Only actions, eh?  Thinking doesn't count?  

Long stories don't count; real thinking that can give a new light
on a situation counts, but you just don't do that.

>What feminism might do for men comes from the third point I
>mentioned: the freeing and revaluation of the feminine.  

Let me give you an example:
More men than women succeed in some test (e.g. SAT), feminists claim that it 
because the test is biased toward men (more question about cars than cooking,
etc.) Now there are two possibilities:

1) Put more question about cooking (and probably end up with asian
   students who learned about a subject they don't care about to 
   improve their score...)

2) Add a couple of points to women's grades.

Option 1 will reward the "feminine," option 2 will reward the female.
The big winners by 1 will be the "feminine" men, while the big winners
by 2 will be the "masculine" women (they get extra points because they
know about cars and they extra points because they are female...)

For some reason option 2 is popular between feminists...
The same goes for affirmative action.  Instead of changing what gets
rewarded, you shift the rewards to women.  The same goes for women's
priority in custody, you shift the rewards to women.  

We were in the AA debate for a long time, and I came up with non-sexist
schemes like affirmative action by income level.  You, and zillion other
feminists, could not think about anything like this for 20 years, and
when I suggested that you shouted all over the net against the idea.

Either you are very stupid and you can't see what the results of what
you support, or you think that everybody else is very stupid and can't
see the result of what you support.

>What
>happened during the period of male supremacy was that women
>formed a counterculture -- to some extent they were
>encouraged to do so by the dominant males -- in which many
>of the values which were rejected from the dominant ideology
>found a home -- for example, the famous nuturance.  

Check sometimes how the kids who grew up in a single mother families,
and got all this "counterculture" behave, and get a *clue*.

>Even though almost no one believes in male supremacy any more, 

But we have quite a few believers in female supremacy...

>the residues of the long period when violence and
>domination were worshiped continue to poison our lives.  If
>feminism recommends the adoption of feminine values, to some
>extent it provides an antidote to that poison.

What y'all make a real effort to miss is that men, especially when they
are young, are under *pressure*.  You just try to make it harder on
them by Politically Correct ways as "no choice for men" or affirmative
action (just try harder...)  You have never suggested any way to reduce
the pressures that kill men 7 years younger as a problem, but quite a 
few feminists have claimed that it is just biology, regardless of all 
biological evidence... 

> )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(

"Women are care givers -- Men on the other hand are death dealers and rapists."
                                   -- Barbara J Stubna in soc.men
Newsgroups: alt.feminism