HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mrpaolo@wpi.WPI.EDU (Paul M. Szymkiewicz)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: cycling gifs
Date: 10 Jan 93 01:35:07 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu



There was an ftp site cited on the news, however, I had problems with
getting connected to it: (in fact the host seemed to be unknown)

	draco.acs.aci.edu

Any successful trials?

Btw, I guess the question about posting pros' pictures from magazines
could be solved by calling the magazine in question, like Velo News.
-- 
Paul (electronically known as mrpaolo@wpi.wpi.edu)
 _o          Warning: You may want to consult Surgeon General of your 
O/O          state before reading the text included in this message.
-----        Flammable contents. Do not expose to open fire.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom 
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:52:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.221837.25014@netcom.com> tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>I beg to differ with you. Michelin SUperComp HD's have a very round
>cross-section and, indeed, feel very similar to my Alessandro sewups.

I don't think it has as much to do with the shape of the cross section
as the amount of casing which can deform to absorb shock.  If you're
comparing 28c d'Allesandros at low pressure this sounds logical.

>If you want cotton clinchers you need only buy Vitorios. They aren't
>very popular and I don't think they'll get that way.

I tried Vittoria clinchers when they first came out a few years ago
and found them to be very unreliable.

>Avocet is a well known and reliable company. The insinuation that they
>would design a machine that would make their product look better is

Huh?  Avocet is not a company best known for reliable products.  The most
reliable stuff they make is relabeled from Italian manufacture.  As to
truth in advertising just look at all of the riders who crashed after
taking their 'bald tires hold in the rain' ad too seriously.  I know a
number of riders who believed this and lost skin because of it.  So
much for truth in advertising.

>The contact patch of a bicycle tire is so small that about the only thing
>that makes a major difference in tire adhesion is squirm and all high
>performance tires have a handle on that. As to rolling resistance --
>pressure makes so much difference that it swamps out the small differences
>in tire brands.

This is a good theory but how do you explain the general consensus that 
there _is_ a difference.  Personally, I think it becomes noticable when 
you ride hard and long.  If you're just putting around town you might not 
notice any difference at all.

>I choose tires from viewpoint of punture resistance, wear mileage and 
>ease of installation. Continental has proven to be superior in the
>last case in any event, at least the steel bead versions. The Michelins
>seem to have a better ride and perhaps slightly better puncture and less
>wear mileage.

These are good reasons for choosing a tire.  I can put up with a few
more flats and a little extra expense to avoid the tired arms and
saddle sores after 100 mile rides.  I also like to descend at the
front of a field.

>But cornering traction? Give me a break -- how would you tell?

Like I said, if you're just putting around ...  Anyone putting in
serious miles knows there are big differences between tires, both
clinchers and sew-ups.  Descending with National Team riders and
ex-Professionals you learn these things.  

My favorite way of measuring the traction of a tire is _uphill_.  
That's right, uphill.  Wait for a good wet day and find a steep road 
with those tar patches running across to fill up the asphalt cracks.  
Riding up over those steep tar patches you'll get a good idea of how 
much force is required to break a tire loose without risking lost skin.

Roger Marquis (marquis@netcom.com)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: johnr@bohra.cpg.oz.au (John Reid)
Subject: Re: Racers and Tires
Organization: Computer Power Software Group Pty Ltd
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:57:19 GMT

jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:

>That Greg Lemond is not the fastest descender is not as unbelievable
>to me as to others  ............

It has always been my understanding that Lemond's success was built around
two things; his ability to climb, and his time trialling ability. His most
widely touted weakness in the European cycling press has been his tactical
abilities, important in riding in stage races.

It is quite common to read that so and so is a poor descender - get hold of
a few copies of the Miroir du Cyclisme, for example. Climbing and
descending are quite different skills, and being good at one has nothing to
do with being good at the other. You should also remember that most of the
remarks about so and so being "not so good at skill x" should be read in
the context of judgements being passed on members of a set of skilled
practitioners. They are likely to be all far better than mere mortals.....
--
John Reid                                   ACSnet : johnr@kowari.cpsg.com.au
CP Software Export Pty Ltd,                 Phone  : +61 3 823 0222
19 Cato Street, Hawthorn 3123 Australia     Fax    : +61 3 824 8068
ACN 006 640 133
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 01:49:51 GMT

kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kip Ingram) writes:
>Is it my imagination, or is there a group of people on this newgroup that takes
>every possible opportunity to engage in a bit of "Jobst bashing"?
>It seems like every time Jobst posts something it draws quite a bit of flak.
>Kip Ingram
>kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Now why would people have this tendency?  Did we all just spontaneously
decide to flame him?  Could Jobst himself have something to do with this?
Have you read any of his posts?
-Terry
-- 
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: dsmola@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Douglas Smola)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:49:49 GMT
Distribution: rec.bicycles.racing
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <ll21dgINNqsi@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>
>Jobst, by your own admission you were not even there when this ride took
>place.  Now you are assuming that there was some "awareness".  Can you
>bend spoons?  Who will win the SuperBowl on January 30th?  As, I said
                                ^^^^^^^^^    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
I thought they were playing the game on Sunday, January 31.
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: LeMond's Goals for the 1993 Racing Season
Date: 12 Jan 1993 21:30:00 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

As the 1993 racing season gets closer and closer, I thought I
would give my $0.02 worth of ideas for Greg LeMond's goals for
the upcoming season.

Given the strength of Miguel Indurain(and Gianni Bugno and Claudio
Chiapucci) it seems to me that Greg has only an outside chance to win
the Tour de France(TIOOYK).  Of course, every year is different and
stranger things have happened(like 1989), but to be realistic and
not to diminish the results of an absolutlely fabulous career,
I think Greg needs to change his goals.

I think Greg has a very good chance of winning a classic like Liege-Bastogne-
Liege or Paris-Roubaix.  I would love to see him concentrate on the
tougher one day races and not base his whole season on the Tour de France.

What does everybody else think?

Bruce

ps - another factor to consider is since we know now that Greg LeMond
is a poor descender, the descents in the one day races are much shorter
than in the major tours which would help downplay this obvious
weakness. -:) -:)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 02:53:20 GMT

adr5@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) writes:
>I haven't tried Continentals yet but I have only heard good things about 
>them.  I've used the Micheleins for the past 2 years and have had good 
>results with the 23's, on the 20's I got flatted 3 times in 2000 miles as
>opposed to 1 flat in 3000 miles with the 23's.  The only reason I haven't
>tried Continentals is the price.  The last 6 Michelins I bought were only
>$15 each.  I've yet to see the Continentals for less than $28.  I don't
>get any sponsorship so cost is important to me.

Michelins were my favs until I got Conti Grand Prixs.  They are pretty damn
expensive although you might want to try Super Sports.  They're about the same
price as Michelins.
-Terry
-- 
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca (Anarchy for Peace)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:19:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.213310.21523@netcom.com> marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis) writes:
>
>
>This is rec.bicycles.racing and if bald tires had decent traction you
>would expect to see them in rainy races.  If you show up at a wet
>Professional race in Europe and go looking for bald tires I think
>you'll be disappointed, and for good reason.
>

I think you'll be disappointed Roger.  When I was at the Giro d'Italia at
Savona in '91 (the stage where LeMond came second to Sciandri), I was taking
pictures of the mechanics working on the bikes after the race was over.  The
bikes for the the Castorama and Carrera teams were sporting bald Michelins.
Even the ones with Fignon, Bugno, Chiappucci and Sciandri written on their top 
tubes.  If anyone remembers any reports about this day, it started raining hard
at 6:00 am and didn't stop until 6 in the evening.  The race arrived in town
at 4:00 pm.

>We now know to stay in front of skinny tires and bald tired bikes.  
>

Can you stay in front of Chiappucci, Sciandri, Bugno, Fignon? :) :) :)

>Roger Marquis

Colin DeWolfe

I may not know much about read technology, but I know what I saw. (firsthand)
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:07:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

I would be interested in what you have to say about the very
different feel of tires like the Michellin HD and the Continental
GP.

I have noted that Conti's have a _much_ stiffer ride and have written
this down to the shape of the tire (Conti's are eliptically shaped and
Michelins round.)

It would seem to me that handlebar mounted accelerometers couldn't miss
the difference since it is so pronounced.
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 11 Jan 1993 05:44:41 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

In article <C0n99M.C7u@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:
>jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>You just said it again!
>
>>> I am truly amazed that someone would even begin to compare
>>> themselves to professional racers.
>>and continues:
>>> ps - in 1991 I joined Team Motorola for a ride at their Santa Rosa
>>> training camp.  On the climb of Ida Clayton Road(5 mi. 8%), I rode
>>> along side Phil Anderson (who 1 month later won 5 races) and  we..
>
>No way Jobst!  You didn't put everything he said down here.  Basically he
>was spoofing your comparison of yourself and LeMond as you well know.
>I never thought you'd stoop to such trickery to try to rebut a point.
>-Terry
>-- 
>-Terry

Thanks for point this out Terry.  Yes, Jobst has stooped to new lows,
now leaving out context to make someone else on the net(namely me!!!)
look bad.  I guess when the going gets tough the weak get sleazy!!!

Anyway, lest anyone get the wrong point(thanks for trying, Jobst!),
I am reposting my original reply to Jobst's original article to 
show the context of my remarks(notice the abundant smileys that
were maliciously edited out by someone with low morals).

>ps - in 1991 I joined Team Motorola for a ride at their Santa Rosa training
>camp.  On the climb of Ida Clayton Road(5 mi., 8%), I rode along side Phil
>Anderson (who 1 month later won 5 races) and we dropped Mike Carter(winner
>of the King of the Mountains jersey at the Tour of Switzerland).  Forget the
>fact that Mike Carter had a 103 degree temperature and was suffering from the
>flu, like, I dropped him, man!  I spent the next 6 weeks waiting for the pro
>contract that never arrived.  Is life unfair or what!!!!!-:) -:) -:) -:)

>Using the now infamous "Jobst logic", I rightly deserved a place on Team
>Motorola!   I guess I just have to be satisfied knowing that when the Tour
>de France happens every year that I could be the one parting the crowds
>on the major climbs!!!-:) -:) -:) -:) -:) -:) -:) -:) -:) -:) -:) -:) -:)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: mprime@tungsten.Berkeley.EDU (Michael B. Prime)
Subject: Collegiate board of Trustees Meeting
Reply-To: mprime@tungsten.Berkeley.EDU (Michael B. Prime)
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:14:15 GMT

Collegiate racers:

This Friday (the day before the USCF board meeting), the collegiate board
of trustees will meet. I am the athelete rep and am posting this to allow
any COLLEGIATE racers out there to express their views.

The following items are on the agenda:
	1) Review of licensing system
	2) New event permit system
	3) Incorporating Mt bike races in collegiates
	4) Selecting Academic All-Americans
	5) Standardizing conference surcharge fees
	6) Championships progress (93 road) and bids (93 track 94 road)
	7) Possibilty of collegiate newsletter
	8) Review of conference lines and issues of racing in other
	conferences

Comments on these topocs or others are welcome. Generally we oversee
administrative matters and all aspects of national championships (sites,
eligibility, format, ...). Alot of racing rules are left up to
individual conferences.

I will check my mail and this group on Thursday for any comments. I will
try to respond but I won't be around very long and am leaving on vacation
right after the board meeting. If you have any additional questions
please mail me after Jan 19.

Mike
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 11 Jan 1993 05:29:20 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

In article <3450017@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>
>> Another factor that you fail to consider is that maybe LeMond
>> doesn't give a hoot if he gets dropped in the first turn.  LeMond
>> makes $2 million a year racing his bike and has won 3 Tours de
>> France and 3 World Championships.  He 1) has nothing to prove to
>> this group of riders and 2) has everything to lose if he were to
>> get injured doing something stupid(remember the turkey hunting
>> incident).
>
>I'm sorry to appear to fail in considerations but I considered more
>than that.  This was a ride with a couple of old friends and no one
>was out to prove any more than riders do otherwise.  I believe there
>was an awareness of who was fast and who was making news.  To sand
>bag down a hill unnecessarily is not exactly friendly.  The way I
>heard it the leaders "waited" as they went down the hill.  This, on
>the other hand was not necessary going up.
>

Oh, brother!  Jobst continually beats up other people on the net for
passing along 2nd hand stories when trying to make his point.

Now, not only do we have Jobst passing along an admittedly 2nd hand
story, but we have him making 2nd hand assumptions on what exactly
was going on!  Will this man stop at nothing to try and make his point.

>This was a ride with a couple of old friends and no one
>was out to prove any more than riders do otherwise.

What does this mean?  Does this mean that everytime I go out on a bike
I am trying to prove something.  I have a number of friends who I raced
with as amateurs and are now professionals and when we go riding, nobody
is trying to prove anything, except to have fun!  So, by this logic,
LeMond had nothing to prove!

>I believe there was an awareness of who was fast and who was making news.

Jobst, by your own admission you were not even there when this ride took
place.  Now you are assuming that there was some "awareness".  Can you
bend spoons?  Who will win the SuperBowl on January 30th?  As, I said
before, you beat up on people for 2nd hand stories, you have gone one
step further than any of these people you so despise.  You are making
2nd hand assumptions!!!!!!

>To sand bag down a hill unnecessarily is not exactly friendly.

Huh, what?  I repeat, huh, what?  Is this the infamous missing 11th
commandment?  This is obfuscation to the highest order, why should I 
have expected any less than from an acknowledged Grand Master!

>The way I heard it the leaders "waited" as they went down the hill.

Again, more evidence of a second hand story being foisted on us by Jobst,
the person who watches over the net like a hawk just to make sure that
such statements never bear any weight when used to back up a point.
Sad, truly sad!

Bruce
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tomk@seer.gentoo.com (Tom Kunich)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 02:28:15 GMT
Organization: Brad Lanam,  Walnut Creek, CA

In article <C0Dz5t.3E6@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:
>les@SAIL.Stanford.edu (Les Earnest) writes:
>>The main reason that Jobst gets flamed, aside from the obviously
>>self-assured tone of his articles, is that he often tweeks some
>>people's complaisant beliefs.  Such flames simply show that he got to
>>them.
>
>Big difference between self-assured and self-promoting.  Both you and
>Jobst seem to believe your every word is written in stone.  And you
>are both often rude about expressing this.  I'm not surprised you chose
>to defend Jobst.  It's probably what you'd like to believe about 
>the reasons for your freqeunt roastings.
>
I get frequently roasted too. Furthermore, it's Earnest and Brandt a
good proportion of the time doing the roasting. But I deal with them
when they do it, not by putting them in a kill file or by flaming
them on general principles. Though I do like the occassional poking
of fun at them -- or the telling of stories at their reputational expense.
:-)

And I admit that Jobst and Les have plenty of experience and probably
relate very good advice for the most part. I'm not of the school that
says that people who are undiplomatic are wrong.


Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: kc@core.rose.hp.com (Kurt Chan)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 03:13:27 GMT
Organization: HP, Systems Technology Division
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

| I think the flat incidence to tire brand is not statistically supported
| because they do not occur with sufficient regularity to establish a
| trend.  
|
| jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com

Jobst,

What additional statistics do you need?  Eric said specifically he rode
TRILLIONS of miles with HARDLY ANY flats.  That's 12 zeroes!  And he also
got MILLIONS of flats in HARDLY ANY miles.  Sounds like pretty conclusive
statistics to me.
From: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:25:49 GMT
Reply-To: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.bicycles.racing, jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>The main differences in performance between tubulars and clinchers
>is that on steep descents with tight turns, brake heat melts
>tubulars glue their glue and become serious hazards.  The glue also
>absorbs significant energy while rolling which is imprtant in a TT.

How about the strength to weight ratio of the tire/rim combination?
A closed box or aero section tubular rim can be lighter for the same
strength (or vice-versa) than a rim with "hooks" for a clincher bead.

An interesting test would be to compare back-to-back a tubular and clincher
tire of similar construction (such as Vittoria's CX and Open CX) with
same-weight rims.  Unfortunately, I cannot afford to do this myself,
but I do notice a difference between my racing tubulars (Vittorias or
Conti Sprints) on Mavic GL330/GP4 rims and training clinchers (Conti
SS Ultras) on Wolber GTX (similar to MA-40) rims.  A lot of this is
due to weight but I also _feel_ that the tubulars corner better, esp-
ecially during a wet crit (personal opinion).

David Mackintosh
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 23:40:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing

Roger Marquis writes:

> If there were clinchers made with cotton you would see some good
> descending tires.  Most clinchers are made from nylon which, while
> puncture resistant, is not the best casing for holding on to wet
> roads.
>
>>jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com

I didn't write the above but for some reason you chose to append my
sig to your response.  Please read the weekly posting for net
protocol and desist.

For one who complains about who knows best, the claim that cotton or
nylon, or for that matter any other material, has some effect on
tire traction should not be left to old wive's tales.  I heard all
this stuff when I started racing and I questioned it but never found
where it came from.  I also found that on a completely non related
matter, similar claims were made and for possibly the same reasons.
In the 1960's in I was told in Germany that cold beer was unhealthy
and that warm beer was the ticket.  It also occurred to me that most
people had no refrigerator large enough to store more than a couple
of beers.  Therefore, what we got is the good stuff and the other
stuff ain't no good.

I believe that silk racing tubulars were so expensive that riding
practically bare walled tires in the rain was such a shame that
teams used cheap cotton ones in the rain.  Fine road grit that gets
into the casing fabric ruins them as I discovered with failures of
Clement tubulars at the junction of the base tape from this.  In the
rain, you can't corner nearly as well as on dry roads but it is
worse than that because certain smooth features that are not a hazard
in the dry become slick as ice.  For this reason wet descending and
cornering is reduced to well below the traction limit so the wet
traction is essentially not an issue for reasonable tires.

As has been discussed at length in prior exchanges, no tread rubber
can break through the boundary layer of water on a smooth surface
such as a railroad track, manhole cover, glossy paint stripe, or
clean tar.  A new sharp edged rubber squeegee glides smoothly over
the wet windshield, leaving behind the boundary layer that you can
see as it evaporates.  If that isn't impressive, think of how a
razor blade glides over skin without braking the boundary layer.
The little traction there is comes from fine grit that pierces or is
held in the boundary layer.  It is often so fine that upon
initiation of slip, the boundary layer increases to exceed its
granular height to reduce traction even more.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com