HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ges@stiatl.salestech.com (Gerald Sullivan)
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Organization: Sales Technologies, Inc.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:39:25 GMT

peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:

>I can't agree more. In fact, the difference between a well designed software
>component in any conventional language and a well designed object in an
>object oriented language should be pretty darned near epsilon.

This is true if the components never changes, components have few common
properties or you do not need polymorhpism. I have never seen a softare system
with these characteristics.

I feel one of the biggest advantages of OOD/OOP is the ability to produce
new components that are very similar to existing components without recodeing 
or redesigning existing objects (thus changing them and therefore requiring
changes in other code that depends on previos behavior )or duplicating code.
By inheriting from the original component, I can produce a new  that
component that uses code in the original object, yet modifies the behavior 
of the new component. Other components that depended on the original behavior
do not need to be altered. 

Another feature missing from conventional languages is dynamic binding (or
polymorphism).

I do realize that it is possible to simulate all of these features in C
by using tables of functions etc (maintain your own vtable). 
Its a real headache though. I have seen it done.


-- 
___________________________________________________________________
Jerry Sullivan, Sales Technologies, Inc.  Atlanta,GA 
ges@salestech.com,...uupsi!stiatl!ges I don't speak for my employer.
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp
From: ronda@ais.org (Ronda Hauben)
Subject: A Paper on the Social Forces Behind the Development of Usenet
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 18:32:29 EST
Organization: UMCC
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

[ Article crossposted from news.misc,comp.bbs.misc,alt.culture.usenet ]
[ Author was Brad Templeton ]
[ Posted on Fri, 11 Dec 1992 00:34:02 GMT ]

In article <1992Dec10.192501.181@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>
>Actually, he didn't say it _is_ democracy, he said it _represents_
>democracy.  Usenet does have some aspects which resemble democratic
>institutions, and one could reasonably argue that the inertia involved in
>implementing anything non-democratic means that it is for most practical
>purposes a democracy.  

Afraid not.  Only the creation of new newsgroups even resembles democracy.
All the really interesting and useful things on USENET have been done by
means that are not democratic.

The reason that the new newsgroup process resembles democracy is that it
was created as a deliberate mock-up of democracy, to keep people happy and
to make people who want a group and don't get it shut up.  You see,
it used to be a problem that somebody would want a group and if they
couldn't get a consenus, they would whine.  People figured that if they
held a pretend vote -- and there were no illusions that it was anything
but a pretend vote -- the whiner would feel forced to shut up rather than
go against the "will of the majority."   This is engrained into us as
kids, it's pretty effective.

Unfortunately the ruse was too good, and some people have gone around thinking
that USENET is some sort of democracy, that policies are set and so on by
votes.

This is false.  The truth of usenet is this:

	o) The way to do things on the net is quite simply ... to do them.
	It's pretty much all volunteer.  You want to change something, change
	it and do the work and convince othe people to come along.

	o) The pretend votes are not votes, but rather surveys which can
	help you to convince others that you have support, which is
	sometimes necessary to convince other people to follow you.

Whatever this is, it's not democracy.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp
From: ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben)
Subject: ACN Supplement-Usenet News READ ME FIRST
Reply-To: ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:31:15 GMT



The Amateur Computerist Supplement on Usenet News has been 
posted in 4 parts. The parts are labeled Part 1, Part II, Part 3, Part 4.

Due to some difficulty in posting the parts, they appear in this 
newsgroup out of sequential order. 

The Contents of the 4 parts of the Supplement are listed at the beginning
of part 1. They are 

Part 1
Introduction
The Net Works
The Computer as a Democratizer

Part 2 (listed as II)
CityNet in New Zealand
Learning About Usenet
Freenet BBS's
`Arte', Computers and Usenet News (Part 1)

Part 3
`Arte', Computers and Usenet News (Part 2)

Part 4
Two Books to Help Users
Liberation Technology


We welcome comments on any of the articles either online, via email
or snail mail.

We hope for as broad a distribution as possible and welcome any help
with distribution.


Also the Supplement is available email by request to 
au329@cleveland.freenet.edu

And it will be available via anonymous ftp at wuarchive.wustl.edu
in the directory /doc/misc/acn  in both ascii and wordperfect
format sometime in January.

Happy Holidays to Everyone from the Staff of the Amateur Computerist.

                   
-- 
Ronda Hauben                    email address:ae547@yfn.ysu.edu
Amateur Computerist Newsletter              or
P.O. Box 4344                   rhauben@heartland.bradley.edu
Dearborn, MI 48126
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.misc
From: maxtal@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (John MAX Skaller)
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Organization: MAXTAL P/L C/- University Computing Centre, Sydney
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:31:13 GMT

In article <id.S2UV.VMK@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>In article <Bz4ro7.3w3@cmptrc.lonestar.org> tmike@cmptrc.lonestar.org (T. Mike Howeth) writes:
>
>> |And these techniques really require an OO
>> |language for their implementation.
>
>I don't buy that argument. A well designed OO language can sure make it
>easier, but it's no more necessary than a structured language is necessary
>for structured programming.

	However, the benefits of reusability can not be obtained  
by merely following an idiom, they must be supported directly by the 
language.

	For example, in C you can emulate C++ classes idiomatically,
including virtual functions. But you cannot get the automatic
construction and destruction of objects, you have to follow
the idiom of destroying auto objects manually at the end of 
their scope.

	So there is a big difference between C and C++.
Even if you can do OO in C.


-- 
;----------------------------------------------------------------------
        JOHN (MAX) SKALLER,         maxtal@extro.ucc.su.oz.au
	Maxtal Pty Ltd, 6 MacKay St ASHFIELD, NSW 2131, AUSTRALIA
;--------------- SCIENTIFIC AND ENGINEERING SOFTWARE ------------------
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.misc
From: erc@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:46:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.194156.17196@ucc.su.OZ.AU> maxtal@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (John MAX Skaller) writes:
>>But if you need bidirectional random access, you have to allocate the
>>entire maximum size in advance.
>
>	There are NO 'you have to .. ' cases surely, even if
>I give some myself now and then :-) And allocating fixed maximums
>is one of the things we want to avoid completely except in truly
>extreme cases.

As proof that you have to allocate the maximum size in advance, the time
it takes to change the allocation and access one element is more than the
time it takes to access one element without changing the allocation.  The
originally stated requirement for it to be considered random access was
that any element could be accessed as fast as any other.  Therefore it is
not random access by that definition in that case.  QED.

But for unidirectional random access in which you can write into the array
at different speeds but need random access reading from the array, it is
ok to use a dynamically sized array, because reading data from the array
can't cause it to change size, unless you explicitly add functionality
such as deleting elements when reading them.
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,news.misc
From: pete@borland.com (Pete Becker)
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Originator: pete@genghis.borland.com
Organization: Borland International
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:34:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.145444.2130@nastar.uucp> phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie) writes:
>
>#define Push(list,element) AddElementToEnd(list,element)
>#define Pop(list) RemoveElementFromEnd(list)
>
>where AddElement... and RemoveElement... are generic linked-list functions.
>
>For a Queue, I do this:
>
>#define Enqueue(list,element) AddElementToEnd(list,element)
>#define Dequeue(list) RemoveElementFromFront(list)
>
>Thus, they have the 'same' interface, in the generic functions, using the same
>data structure(s), and if I decide that the program need a queue instead of
>a stack, all I need to do is change the Push() calls to Enqueue() calls, and
>so on.
>

	And what happens when you overlook one of those Pop() invocations?
Suddenly your data structure isn't doing what you wanted it to do.
	If you decide that a program needs a queue instead of a stack, you've
made a _major_ architectural change. Making that change work correctly should
not depend on such vagaries as remembering that you have to replace one set
of macro invocations with another.  It's much better to have two different
classes, with two different interfaces.  Then when you change the stack to
a queue, the code won't compile until you've changed all the member function
calls.
	-- Pete


Xref: sparky alt.amateur-comp:342 comp.lang.c:18420 comp.lang.c++:18012 comp.misc:4608
From: pete@borland.com (Pete Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.misc
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:20:57 GMT
Organization: Borland International
Originator: pete@genghis.borland.com

In article <rmartin.724426621@thor> rmartin@thor.Rational.COM (Bob Martin) writes:
>
>However, a stack is a member of the class of objects which obey the
>abstract interface: o.PutIn(element), element = o.TakeOut();  Other
>member of this abstract class are Queues, PriorityQueues,
>CircularQueues, SortedLists, etc.
>
>If the Stack interface inheritend from this more abstract interface,
>then users could access elements from containers without knowing what
>kind of containers they were using.  
>

	That's certainly true, but I don't think it's a good thing.  It seems
to me that the important factor in using a container is understanding its
behavior.  A Queue and a Stack differ significantly, in that a Queue is
FIFO and a Stack is LIFO. You pick which one to use based on what your
current program requires.  Replacing a Queue with a Stack will change the
behavior of the program.  So I don't want them to have the same interface.
	I also don't think that a List or a SortedList is an abstraction, but
that's a separate matter...
	-- Pete
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.misc
From: mcmahan@cs.unca.edu (Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner)
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:21:19 GMT

Ian G Batten (igb@fulcrum.co.uk) wrote:

: > The next person who writes a module for stack operations, I'm going to kill!
: > Just use *A++ = V, and V = *--A, for God's sake!
: 
: 
: What if you want the stack to be dynamically sized?

A real programmer would write it in assembly language and 
allocate the size on the heap and link it in to his
C program :^) :^)

Why *wouldn't* you write a stack module?!? Then you could
inherit it into all your other modules, re-use it the
*next* time you need a stack, etc.

*A++ = V

Somehow,

mystack.push(V)

is clearer to me. Sorry!

Besides, what is 'A'? A pointer to *what*? What if your stack
overflows? How do you check it? Surely that one line of code
isn't the whole thing... in C, you gotta follow that top
very closely because run time bounds checking is limited
to a core dump :^)

Similar things could be said for the -- case, since you could
go *under* the size of the stack by popping too much.

mystack.pop()

is again a little clearer. Except your version returns a 
value:

mystack.pop(V)

or

v = mystack.pop()

I dunno if "pop" should return a value or not. Pop is functionally
seperate from "stacktop", a function that examines the top
of the stack.

Strictly orthagonal stack modules ought to seperate them :)

v = mystack.top();
mystack.pop();

Then of course you could have tpop or some function to do both.

You *could* overload some operators and get a *really* nice
stack:

mystack += V // push
V = mystack  // top
mystack--    // pop

That's easier to code than the pointer way!

With the pointer stack, the "user" of the stack could
easily do non-stack things like average all the 
values on the stack. Or change values down near the bottom.
That's more something for a derived class to do.

Scott

Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,comp.text,comp.misc,comp.lang.misc
From: ag173@yfn.ysu.edu (Jay Hauben)
Subject: Help needed to upload page breaks w/ a file.
Reply-To: ag173@yfn.ysu.edu (Jay Hauben)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:31:52 GMT


     I want to be able to upload a large file as a post in a 
newsgroup and as e-mail. I will probably break the file up into a 
number of parts. But still it would be best if I could embed 
ASCII uploadable page breaks into my file. In that way, those who 
print out the file will have a more manageable printout.
 
     Can anyone suggest how I might do this?
 
     Does anyone have a program I can run on my 8088 computer 
which might insert such page breaks say every 55 lines?
 
     Thanks.

Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.misc
From: pete@borland.com (Pete Becker)
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Originator: pete@genghis.borland.com
Organization: Borland International
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:37:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.202119.28836@cs.unca.edu> mcmahan@cs.unca.edu (Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner) writes:
>
>You *could* overload some operators and get a *really* nice
>stack:
>
>mystack += V // push
>V = mystack  // top
>mystack--    // pop
>

	I think this use of overloading is right at, or possibly beyond, the
limits of acceptability.  The natural operations on a stack are push(), pop(),
and top().  Most people don't think of +=, assignment, and -- when they 
think of a stack.
	If the above usage had been completely clear, the comments wouldn't
have been necessary...
	-- Pete
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,news.misc,comp.bbs.misc,alt.culture.usenet
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Usenet and Democracy (WAS Re: A Paper ... of Usenet)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:04:24 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Keywords: Usenet News Democracy People Discussion Debate

According to hauben@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Michael Hauben):
> The Computer as a Democratizer

What a silly idea.

The free spread of information is not the same thing as democracy.
It is useful in a democracy, true; but then, it's useful everywhere.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.misc
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:28:14 GMT

In article <Bz4ro7.3w3@cmptrc.lonestar.org> tmike@cmptrc.lonestar.org (T. Mike Howeth) writes:
> For these reasons, I DO suggest utilization of the OO design and coding
> practices in other environments.

I can't agree more. In fact, the difference between a well designed software
component in any conventional language and a well designed object in an
object oriented language should be pretty darned near epsilon.

> Absolutely!  It disappoints me that OO critics (such that they are) suggest
> that the Tao of OO is nothing other than formalized, restrictive coding
> standards.

No, it's formalised software design. It's got damned little to do with coding
at all.

> |And these techniques really require an OO
> |language for their implementation.

I don't buy that argument. A well designed OO language can sure make it
easier, but it's no more necessary than a structured language is necessary
for structured programming.
-- 
%Peter da Silva/77487-5012 USA/+1 713 274 5180/Have you hugged your wolf today?
/L{lineto}def/C{curveto}def/F{0 562 moveto 180 576 324 648 396 736 C 432 736 L
482 670 518 634 612 612 C}def/G{setgray}def .75 G F 612 792 L 0 792 L fill 1 G
324 720 24 0 360 arc fill 0 G 3 setlinewidth F stroke showpage % "Peerless"
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.misc
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:21:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.194300.25301@ucc.su.OZ.AU> maxtal@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (John MAX Skaller) writes:
> 	In C, often a simple design is hard to code. In C++,
> it can easily be MUCH easier. E.g., with my string and list handling
> packages working, I never have to worry again about coding
> the correct routines.

I use component string, file scanning, and symbol table routines in C
all the time. I would hate doing without the,.

> 	I think this effect is order of magnitude, not marginal.

I think the effect is due to your actions, rather than your tools.

> 	I agree, but many programming tasks dont require that
> much design. There's often just a whole lot of tedious coding to
> do.

Examples? When I have a lot of tedious coding, I generally write a
program to write the program for me.

> 	Agreed. But C++ is a good head start over C.

As Ratfor is over Fortran.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                            `-_-'
Ferranti International Controls Corporation                'U` 
Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012 USA
+1 713 274 5180                            "Zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur?"
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.misc
From: mcmahan@cs.unca.edu (Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner)
Subject: Re: What is Object Oriented Programming? Is C doomed?
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:10:19 GMT

T. Mike Howeth (tmike@cmptrc.lonestar.org) wrote:

: |                     I don't suggest attempting to write object
: |oriented code in any language which does not directly support OO
: |concepts.
: 
: I disagree.  I have seen tremendous benefit when programmers and (more often)
: software engineers learn an OO language (C++, specifically) and then apply
: appropriately-scaled techniques from those to procedural (3g) languages 
: (Pascal and C, specifically).  

I don't think I agree with this... look at Motif! :)

It uses OOP in C, and the result is a complex mess. A slightly
less complex mess than X libraries, but it is still a mess.
If they re-did Motif in C++, it would be a lot nicer and easier to 
use.

Procedure oriented languages don't really allow the things that
make OOP work. Modula-2 almost does, but the "users" of modules
still get to create and pass around data structures.

If you're going to use the concepts, why not just use a 
language that implements them?

Scott

PS -- is OOP confusing? Do you even know what it is?

If you'd like more introductory info to OOP, the AC wants me to
post a presentation I gave on it in text format here, so
watch for it after exams next week! :)



Newsgroups: alt.manga
From: gaiga@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (alberto gaiga)
Subject: Help!
Organization: Computer Science Dep. - Milan University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:51:09 GMT



  ####   #    #  #    #  #####     ##    #    #
 #    #  #    #  ##   #  #    #   #  #   ##  ##
 #       #    #  # #  #  #    #  #    #  # ## #
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  ####    ####   #    #  #####   #    #  #    #




 #    #  ######  #    #   ####
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 #    #    ##    #    #   #####  ######  #####
 #    #   #  #   ##   #     #    #       #    #
 #    #  #    #  # #  #     #    #####   #    #
 # ## #  ######  #  # #     #    #       #    #
 ##  ##  #    #  #   ##     #    #       #    #
 #    #  #    #  #    #     #    ######  #####


	Please help me!!!
	Thankfully, Alberto.




         |          --------------------------------------------------------- 
        /|\         Alberto Gaiga                    gaiga@ghost.dsi.unimi.it
       / | \       
      /  |          Department of Computer Science 
     /   |          University of Milan (ITALY) 
    /____| ____     --------------------------------------------------------- 
   /     |     \                   
  /      |______\		   "Prima de parlar tasi."
Newsgroups: alt.manga
From: gaiga@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (alberto gaiga)
Subject: Gundam news req.
Organization: Computer Science Dep. - Milan University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:45:58 GMT

	Dear friend,
	i'm looking for some japanese Gundam-fan, or fot anybody that
	can tall me news about Gundam.
	Here in Italy, Gundam was on TV about in 1984, and only the first
	serie was transmitted. Can you tell me more? 
	I wish i like to read something like:
	"You can find comics (or tapes) in english"
	but all news are welcome!

					Thankfully, Alberto.

	
	p.s. Is there anything on INTERNET that I can read? 


         |          --------------------------------------------------------- 
        /|\         Alberto Gaiga                    gaiga@ghost.dsi.unimi.it
       / | \       
      /  |          Department of Computer Science 
     /   |          University of Milan (ITALY) 
    /____| ____     --------------------------------------------------------- 
   /     |     \                   
  /      |______\		   "Prima de parlar tasi."
From: robohen@ocf.berkeley.edu (Henry Robertson)
Newsgroups: alt.manga
Subject: ONE-DOLLAR MANGA FOR SALE
Date: 17 Dec 1992 06:59:57 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: headcrash.berkeley.edu

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Now that I have trimmed down my collection to only the very best, I would
like to share it with all of you manga fans in the world.  By sending me
ONE DOLLAR, cash or money order, I will send back to you a sample of
Maruo Suehiro's sci-fi/20th-century, very-non-mainstream, very-unavailable,
very-high-art-quality manga.  It will come with English subtitles on the 
margin.  If you like it, there will be instructions on the back of the
last page to order more.

Send a self-addressed, stamped (29 cents) business-size envelope to:

Henry Robertson
2206 Durant Ave. #5
Berkeley, CA 94704

If you have questions, send e-mail to robohen@ocf.berkeley.edu, or
call (510) 649-1857.

*manga is Japanese comics.
** make sure you like R-rated movie-type of material.
*** sample will have 8 pages.