From: regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: FOCA: And I quote.....
Date: 25 Aug 1992 11:31:51 -0700
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <1992Aug25.155443.23622@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
>In <17dgvmINN82m@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@sdd.hp.com writes:
>
>> >> > >>I think that they tend to inflate the trauma of childbirth, automatically
>> >> > >>ruling it out -- I don't think they do a "thorough examination".
>> >> > >There *are* 1.5 million women, or thereabouts, every year who decide that
>> >> > >an abortion is a better option than bearing a child.  1.5 MILLION.  I
>> >> > >suppose 'they' 'inflate' the trauma (actually LIVE the trauma) whereas you,
>> >
>> >  I've never understood why Adreinne seems to think that because a large number
>> >of people choose to do something, that makes it okay.
>> 
>> 
>> I've never understood why people who (1) haven't the equipment for the 
>> process, and therefore (2) are less likely to understand the process and
>
>  (2) does not follow from (1).

Not in a vacuum, no, it doesn't.  In the *real* *world*, however, where a
puritanical society has dodged simple information to young teens, and 
where prejudice and misinformation about 'the opposite sex' abounds, I
think it does.

Where do you live?  In the vacuum, or the real world?

> (3) will never face the process always seem to know more than (4) people
>> who have the equipment for the process (4) are much more likely to under- 
>> stand the process 
>
>  (4)[2] does not neccasarily follow from (4)[1]

Not in a vacuum, no, it doesn't.  In the *real* *world*, however, where 
girls are the 'automatic' choice of babysitter, where parents and society
regularly speak of 'getting in trouble' with their female children and 
stupidly ignore discussing it with their male children, where females are much
more likely to share information on female processes with fledgling females,
it does.

Which world do you live in?

>> (5) in fact are closely inculturated in our society with
>> an understanding of the process and 
>
>  (5) is (IMO) hogwash.  Given the crappy state of sex ed in this nation, I
>      would be amazed to find people (in general) properly "inculturated" with a
>      true UNDERSTANDING of the process.

Well, I might have to agree with you here, Jim.  It's quite true that you and
I, both educated people, long beyond the point of sex ed in the jr and sr
high schools don't agree on 'the process'.  

HOWEVER, it's true that female children are enculturated with the notions that
sex is bad, motherhood is wonderful, and bearing a child is a duty to be 
borne proudly, by and large.  The messages have altered somewhat over the years,
but they remain in force.  Girl children are also subjected to notions that
pregnancy is punishment is situation A, but a 'blessing' in situation B,
that they will suffer pain, and that they will undergo hormonal and physical
changes as a result of a pregnancy.

Their estimate of the 'cost' of those changes is a subject for them to 
decide.

>  I should observe that I find Adreinne's general assumption that ONLY
>a pregnant woman, in general, has any idea what is going on just a little
>bit patronizing. 

That's because it's not Adrienne's assumption.  That's your particular spin
on it, Jim, and a dishonest one at that.  I state quite clearly that any
pregnant woman *can* find out what she needs to know, and is the only one
in a position to decide how much SHE needs to know and is the only one in
a position to determine how high the COST is to her.

I further point out that 1.5 Million women, who have some stake in the game
have made a specific selection.

These women have been determined by one man on this net to be uninformed,
as "inflating"  the trauma, of 'automatically' making decisions, and of
not doing a 'thorough examination'.  You think *I*'m being patronizing?
I think you are being a wee bit selective....


>  They (the women) may well have better knowledge.  But I find Adreinne's 
>faith in that understanding surprisingly naive.  As if to say, "well, they 
>HAVE to find out, so they will."

I say that the women who are faced with the choice *MAKE* a choice, and it
is a choice based upon the knowledge that THEY CARE to obtain and it is
a choice they make via an examination that is as thorough as THEY CARE for
it to be.  

>  Do they?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Is it important that they do? I know I think so.
>Sometimes I wonder about Adreinne.

I don't think it is important that THEY make a decision based upon YOUR 
criteria, damned straight.  Or the original poster's, either, whose name
I've lost in deletions.

And I think it's damned strange that you figure I'm being patronizing in
acknowledging that people who have to make decisions may become informed
upon those decisions, but it apparently isn't patronizing for some joe
blow to decide 1.5 million women per year have their heads up their asses.


Adrienne Regard