HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: asale@fraser.sfu.ca (Antonina Sale)
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:25:26 GMT

In reference to Tom Maddox asking if the group objected to his announcements
of work published, let me just add my two Centimorgans:  Mr. Maddox is a 
successful (financially, artistically, not neccessarily in that order) writer,
and this group is larger about becoming a successful (see above) writer, and
I think that it is interesting, heartening, and enriching the newsgroup to 
hear about his successes. Thanks, Tom.
.
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|    Sebastian Hassinger, misanthropic humanist for hire, c/o asale@sfu.ca    |
|Disclaimer: if&when I had employers, I would voice their opinions exclusively|
|    Someday I want to be a writer, but right now Im just a wronger.       |
|                         Pop will void itself.                               |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: crutiras@bu.edu (Chokdee Robert)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Critique wanted, also - POEM
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:22:46 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

To all those who have posted a response:

Please accept my deepest apologies for requesting a critique via this 
newsgroup.  I was not aware of the "theme" of this group, and have been
corrected otherwise.

I thank all those who have pointed me in the right direction in terms 
of finding the correct newsgroup for requesting critiques.

Again, please accept my aplogies,

Sincerely,

C. Robert Rutirasiri
From: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera)
Newsgroups: misc.writing,alt.culture.usenet
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Followup-To: alt.culture.usenet
Date: 17 Nov 1992 13:07 PST
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.198
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

{Discussions on misc.writing about whether it's cool to use the Net to
announce, tout, slyly allude to, or otherwise promote one's own book}

>>This amounts a commercial use of the Internet, which is strictly forbidden.

>Definitely not (objectionable, that is).  Even putting aside the fact
>that people legitimately post product announcements (as distinct from
>advertisements) on technical newsgroups, we* consider this sort of
>posting both interesting and relevant.

My two cents' worth on a subject that's drowning in pennies:  Right on!
If it's okay with the denizens of a particular newsgroup, post it.  If
not, cease and desist, or at least try elsewhere.

This, of course, is my own opinion, not to be mistaken for that of my
employer and/or any organization that sets rules for or contributes to
the support of the Internet.  Or the opinion of a lawyer.

Cheers,
Joe
"The pallid pimp of the dead-line/The enervate of the pen" --Robert Service
From: ehudon@reed.edu (Elizabeth Hudon)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Graduate School
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:03:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov20.210338.2436
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

I would suggest that anyone interested in graduate writing programs
should look into the Iowa writer's program at the big state university
there.

As far as writing courses in general, Harlan Ellison has an interesting
account of the way he ran a writer's workshop--participants in his
week-long segment of a summer program for fantasy and sci fi writers
were required to write a story a day. (I can't remember the source of
this anecdote, unfortunately.)

Elizabeth (ehudon@reed.edu)
From: sue@pages.ogi.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Public domain or non-copyrighted text?
Date: 18 Nov 92 01:07:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: pages.1992Nov18.010716.5399
Reply-To: sue@pages.com
Organization: Banzai Research Institute

I know this is not exactly the right newsgroup for this request, but perhaps  
some of you may be able to help me.

My department is trying to put together a manual that includes a sample  
business document.  Due to time constraints, we don't have the time to write it  
ourselves.

Does anyone know where I could access public domain text, or pieces of writing  
that are not copyrighted?

Thanks!
Sue MacIntosh
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Subject: Re: Graduate School
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:52:15 GMT
Organization: Dobonia


In article <17617@mindlink.bc.ca>, Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
|Academe has sheltered a lot of good writers (not to mention the cheerful
|hacks like me). But it does tend to academicize those writers, imposing a set
|of values that may or may not suit a given writer. Literature as an art would
|do better if it could draw on writers from wildly diverse backgrounds with
|wildly divergent agendas.

I agree completely.  (Well, not about the "cheerful hack" part--I haven't
read your stuff yet, so all I can say is you do seem fairly cheerful.)  

It's damned hard for a writer who is, to borrow a monastic phrase, "in
the world" to work a day job and write, and it's hard to survive off the
proceeds of writing alone.  So the idea of taking shelter in a
university, where you can earn a survival wage working the equivalent of
part-time for 9 months of the year, is awfully attractive.  The hidden
cost is that the shelter itself insulates the writer from the world, and
academic politics, peer pressure, and so on also have their effect on
the writing.

My answer to the dilemma has been to write very, very slowly.
Eventually, I think, I'm going to have to take some time off and try to
write very, very fast.



-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski)
Subject: Re: Question on parenthetical style
Originator: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:22:42 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <1ec221INNi41@GIRAFFE.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU>, schwarz-marc@cs.yale.edu (Marc Schwarz) writes:
|> What is the preferred style for parenthetical expressions?
|>
|> I have seen:
|>
|>    1. Mary had a little lamb (and the doctor died of shock).
|>
|>    2. Mary had a little lamb (The doctor died of shock.).
|>
|>    3. Mary had a little lamb. (The doctor died of shock.)
|>
|> This is actually two questions:  Should parentheticals
|> be dependent or independent clauses?  In addition, should
|> independent parentheticals be embedded within another
|> independent clause? (This presumes paretheticals should,
|> in most cases, be independent clauses.) In practice, I tend
|> to use the first example, the notion being that an independent
|> clause can stand on its own (no matter how tangential it is).
|>
|> Marc.
|> -=-
|> schwarz@cs.yale.edu
|> AKA schwarz@spunky.cs.nyu.edu

Where I work, parentheticals traditionally contain clarifying
information, an example, a citation for another work, or a reference to
material elsewhere in the document. Usually, parenthenticals are either
independent clauses or complete sentences.  This is a matter of
convention here, though; I'm not aware of any hard and fast rule. We do 
it this way to be consistent with each other.

As a software company, we have a number of rules for using parentheses 
in equations and in code. If we refer to a symbol in text, we usually 
show the symbol in parentheses, such as:

"..Logical operators include the equal sign (=),...."

For parentheticals within sentences, we punctuate outside of the 
parentheses, as in:

"..You can specify a quoted literal containing embedded commas (for example, 
"1,000.00"). And so on...."

Complete parenthetical sentences are punctuated within parentheses, such 
as:

"...The BLAH= option produces a separate report. (The BLAH statement 
produces a message in the error log.) And so forth..."

What you do, of course, is completely up to you. 
<-------------------------------^------------------------------------->
|Len Olszewski, Technical Writer| "The fish."                         |
|saslpo@unx.sas.com             |  -Salvador Dali                     |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Opinions this ludicrous are mine. Reasonable opinions will cost you.|
<-------------------------------v------------------------------------->
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Intersting point?
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:14:57 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET (Jon L. Campbell) writes:
> Can't a protagonist be a jerk sometimes or should the character
> be above reproach?

The former.  The latter is inhuman, and boring.

	Larry "Really" Hammer
--

                         \   Absence diminishes small loves and increases
LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \  great ones, as the wind blows out the candle 
sometimes a Wombat         \ and blows up the bonfire. -- La Rochefoucauld
From: ian.murray@synapse.org (Ian Murray) 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Run on sentences
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:40:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SYNAPSE BBS - GATINEAU, QUEBEC - 819-561-4321
Reply-To: ian.murray@synapse.org (Ian Murray) 

"When the last days were upon me,and the ugly trifles of existance began 
to drive me to madness like the small drops of water that torturers let 
fall ceaselesslyupon one spot of their victim's body, I loved the 
irradiate refuge of sleep."

      Opening sentence of 'Ex Oblivione' by H.P.Lovecraft.

Is this a run-on sentence or what???

<< Ian >>

---
 . WinQwk 2.0 #0 . Unregistered Evaluation Copy
                                                                                                            
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: philo@orion.IntelliCorp.COM (Philip R. Obermarck)
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:19:16 GMT
Reply-To: pobermarck@intellicorp.com
Organization: IntelliCorp Inc.

In article <BxtIpy.49F@news.iastate.edu>, bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible) 
writes:
 
>   Go ahead and announce it.  Unless it includes an 800 number or an order
> form I don't consider that commercialism nor do I find it objectionable.  
> Seems like justifiable pride on the part of the author and encouragement for 
> other readers of this group. If the group becomes cluttered with too many of
> these posts we can re-visit the topic, 

  I agree.

  I think of most of you out there as aquaintances or associates, and I
am pleased to see publishing announcements.  I may or may not decide to
buy the book, but at least I know it's out there.  An announcement also
provides the starting point for discussions of the publishing business.

  Talking to someone firsthand about whether they used an agent, how
drastically their manuscript was rewritten, or what control they had
after the check was signed can be much more fulfilling than reading 
about it in a "make a million $$ as an author" book. :-)

  Besides, if they can't brag to us, who can they brag to! ;-)

     -Phil

-- 
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Philip R. Obermarck                 "I've been alive since time began,
  PObermarck@IntelliCorp.COM            Not beast, not god, and yet not man.
                                       I am the music and the dance,
  <IntelliCorp disavows any             I am the piper who enchants."
   knowledge of my actions>                           (Creature of the Wood)
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:52:22 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Nov15.231107.21506@netcom.com> tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:

>	However, if people find such announcements objectionable,
>they should say so; and if not, they should say that.  I remain interested 
>to hear about what others are publishing and do not begrudge them the 
>opportunity to say so in even reasonably appropriate newsgroups; 
>I am also willing to concede that I may be blinded by self-interest and 
>so unable to see that such actions should not occur.

I, for one, would like to know when members have published their work
and how to find it. Think of it as a way for them to "put their money
where their mouth is" as far as the discussions we have about writing.
(And if I ever get a story published, I have every intention of telling
everyone about it. :-) )

--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Subject: Re: Intersting point? AND Flat antagonist?
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:46:12 GMT
Organization: Dobonia


In article <92322.122322KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>, Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
|[speculation about the roles and characters of the antagonist and
|protagonist in my novel, REMOTE CONTROL, along with some discussion of
|the nature of serial killers in the real world.]

It is always gratifying to have someone express interest in my novel,
and I'm sure there is also rich grounds here for a hypothetical
discussion of how novels may be written with different kinds of
protagonists and antagonists, but frankly it would be an utterly
pointless exercise for anyone to attempt to discuss my novel when they
haven't even seen the thing, much less read it.

The protagonist-versus-antagonist model doesn't fit REMOTE CONTROL very
well, anyway.  Given sufficiently powerful analytical tools I have no
doubt you could force it into that mold, but you would squeeze most of
the juice out of it in the process.

If there is sufficient interest here in discussing the actual details
of REMOTE CONTROL I will gladly provide typeset, bound copies to the
interested parties for the cost of duplication and mailing.  (This price
will naturally vary according to how many people want one.)  Otherwise
let's acknowledge that this discussion is completely hypothetical.

That said, let me answer some of Jon's questions *about novels in 
general*.

It is not necessary to have a protagonist who is the reflection of good.
Many novels call the very idea that a person can be characterized as
good into question.  The protagonist can be a jerk sometimes, and
certainly should not be above reproach--a protagonist who is above
reproach sounds to me like a good formula for a completely boring story.
Look, for example, at Arthurian legend, any classical or Shakespearian
tragedy, or more recently Stephen R. Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books,
for clearly reproachable protagonists.

The second question, "Can the antagonist be anything other than the
conflict in the story?" fails to make a lot of sense to me.  I am
reminded of an aquaintance who used to ask "Did you take the bus this
morning or do you bring your lunch?" as a ploy to disorient the unwary.
What if the story doesn't have an antagonist?  Is the antagonist then
something else, or can we admit that there simply isn't one?  I am
certain that you can have a story without an antagonist.  Examples that
leap to mind are "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" and THE ACCIDENTAL
TOURIST.

-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
From: preddy@comphy.physics.orst.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: speech interruption
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:40:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: gaia.1ermk4INNc51
Reply-To: preddy@comphy.UUCP ()
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research, NY
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.orst.edu

>She said, "I'm posting you about my problem--" Her hands 
>became clumsy on the keyboard. "--and I hope you're able 
>to help me."

How about:

     She typed awkwardly, "I am posting you about my problem 
     and I hope you are able to help." 

Assuming, of course, we know already "she" is sitting before a
computer terminal.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: jcbarnes@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Terson - Sod Lord)
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Organization: FryTools International
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:24:29 GMT

Hello Y'all,

  I found it interesting to see what stories Crawford Killian and Tom
Maddox had written.  I felt it was nice to see what they had
published.  Partly because when I see someone's name here on the net I
wonder whether they are actually published and what their books
actually read like.

  Soon after the posts of works by Crawford Killian and Tom Maddox I
looked up their books at a local bookstore out of curiosity... I
didn't buy them, probably won't unless I find out more than just
hearing about the author here.  (Usually for me by reading a borrowed
book from a friend/library... If I'm going to buy a book on my meager
college money, it had better be good)  But my curiosity was satisfied
<grin>.

  I would soon have a kill file if corporations, or a similar
organization actively advertised their books.  To me the announcement
of books published is great, but I would not want to get flooded.  My
time is precious, I want my time to be well spent... advertisements
are not time well spent. (neither is this <grin>).

  I didn't feel Crawford Killian or Tom Maddox were advertising, that
I believe is the difference in what they did, and why I feel that
their posts were fine and dandy with me... of course what does my
opinion matter <grin>.

Fritz
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Critique wanted, also - POEM
Date: 13 Nov 92 22:22:43 GMT
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

elle@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
> 
> Please leave misc.writing to discussions of _writing_.  Thanks.

Or as I put it, discussions of the craft and business of writing, not
individual writings.

	Larry "The Young Curmudegeon" Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \  In the deserts of the heart 
sometimes a Wombat         \ Let the healing fountains start  -- Auden
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay)
Subject: Claron West
Summary: Address for Claron West
Keywords: Address for Claron West
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 17:16:18 GMT

Hi;

Does anyone have the contact address for Claron West? 

Thanks...
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: alex@biostat.washington.edu (Alex MacKenzie)
Subject: Graduate School
Organization: Biostatistics, School of Public Health, Univ. of Wash.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:58:00 GMT

Ah, yes, I once contemplated grad school and the Creative Writing major. 
But the only real motive I had was to get into the academic system so I
could land one of those mythical "cushy English professor" jobs which
held a certain allure during my misguided youth.  

Now I know better.  And I'm glad I never did it.  (I work for professors
now, and I would not want that life one little bit.  The office politics and
the tenure chase are very large and unpleasant aspects of the job.)  I
believe my eventual reasoning (on not going) went something like this: 
If I'm already a good writer, I don't need to go.  If I'm not a good
writer, and I go, and don't improve, and do get the Mythical Professor
job, I'll end up being one of those creative writing instructors who has
never been published (I knew a few of them--pathetic creatures they
were, too).  That would not be a good thing.  The question then became: 
is there a way I can hone my skills and find out how good I am without
spending 2 or more years and thousands of dollars on a graduate writing
program?  And the answer was, of course there is.  It's called Clarion
West.  They DON'T limit the workshop to SF and fantasy, although that
is definitely the focus.  It's basically a 6-week writer's boot camp for
"those on the verge of professionalism", in which you write and/or
critique every day, with a different professional writer as your instructor
for each week.  This is the workshop at which Harlan Ellison traditionally
makes students write a story a day, and if they don't turn one in, they
don't get to critique the others' stories that day.  A very intense
experience, in which you receive approximately two years worth of
writing instruction in a month-and-a-half.  The critical feedback alone is
worth it--you'll learn more about yourself and your abilities and
capabilities than you ever thought possible, and you'll learn what it takes
to be a successful writer.  And it doesn't cost as much as an MFA.

The simplest way to learn about writing, of course, is to write, send it
out, and keep sending it out until you figure out what works.  And read
the sort of books you want to write, and STUDY them.  This method
takes a little longer, but it's a damn sight cheaper than either of the
above.

(You can also just keep rereading Crawford's posts on writing--they're
full of damn good advice, on a level similar to the things I learned at
Clarion.)

Submit, Submit, Submit!

Alex
From: gt0299d@prism.gatech.EDU (Curtis N. Sayre)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: APA manual style for manuscript
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:21:55 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Help!  My wife has a massive paper due in her Cognitive psych course on the
24th (Tues). The professor decreed that all papers needed to follow the APA
style requirements for publication, just in case they wanted to publish.
So, being the good student that she is, She went to get the APA style manual
from the library, and it was MIA.  She did manage to copy some relevant pages
from a classmate who had the manual, but didn't manage to copy everything 
she needed to know.  So I would really appreciate any help from knowledgable
people out there regarding:

1)  What all goes on the title page of the paper, and how is it formatted?

2)  does the 3rd ed. call for the terms Figure X on the front and back, just the
front, or just the back of the figures?

Please, please, please help me out here.  Thanks to any and all replies...


Curt

-- 
Internet: gt0299d@prism.gatech.edu
"It is in the extremes that our philosophies are tested, and those of us who
are serious do not set aside our ethics merely because in some cases they have
become inconvenient or distasteful." - Piers Anthony
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: vuyk@let.rug.nl (W. Vuijk)
Subject: looking for someone at Muir College UCSD
Organization: Faculteit der Letteren, Rijksuniversiteit Groningen, NL
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:18:09 GMT


Hello,

Although it's not the purpose of this news group to find an e-mail address 
of someone, I hope someone will help me in this case.
A collegue of mine worked at the Muir College Writing Programe (UC San 
Diego). December 7 she (her name is Jose van Dijck) will get her PhD, and 
we (her collegues of the University of Groningen The Netherlands, Dept. of 
Dutch and Dept. of Communication Studies) will send her our best wishes 
etc. - the best way to do that is -as we thought- by e-mail, but we need 
someone at the Muir College who is willing to help us. So if you can help 
us, please let me know:

Wim Vuijk
e-mail: vuyk@let.rug.nl

Newsgroups: misc.writing