HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (William E. Johns;S23015)
Subject: Re: Faggots and witches (again)
Organization: Washington State University
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 19:27:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec26.014535.2308@u.washington.edu> rjb@carson.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars) writes:
>Nevertheless, the use of the words "fag" and "faggot" to mean "male
>homosexual" is basically North American.  It was first recorded in
>North America, and it isn't characteristic of British English at all
>(except perhaps in imitation of North American slang, and only very
>recently if at all).
>
>Don't you think it unlikely that a usage some people now claim to derive
>from European persecutions of several centuries ago should first be
>recorded in the late 19th century in North America?  In English?
>And not Latin or French or Spanish?
>
>I recommend checking the Oxford English Dictionary.  And not teriary or
>quaternary sources that have less reliability than the average urban legend.
>
>--LeGrand

Alas, I gave up on the Oxford English Dictionary with my learning
that it does not have the word "athame" in it.  Neither of the recent editions.

So much for the ultimate reference. :-(

Ride Free,

Bill
________________________________________________________________
johnsw@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu  prez=BIMC 
AMA #500924   DoD #00314   WMTC #0002  SR= 3 
Yamabeemer fjgs1200pdr100 740GLE  KotV KotRR KotD #0001  :-)
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Guilt is the love of staying stuck.

                                          Hugh Prather
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:22:02 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <1992Dec22.020001.25443@colorado.edu> bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.211706.15412@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan) writes:
>>
>>Ashley is correct in pointing out that the biggest current problem
>>wood products is clear-cut harvesting.  Woodlots CAN be managed for
>>a sustained yield;  it costs a bit more than clear-cutting in the
>>short term, but you get to cut the wood and sell it again a few years
>>later if you use sustainable harvesting!  Much better long-term
>>yield . . .
>
>That was tried and it doesn't work.
>
>A company harvesting redwoods in California took extreme care to
>maintain their forest; they were held up as a shining example of an
>ecologically responsible extractive company.
>
>No good deed goes unpunished -- they were the victim of a hostile
>takeover.  To pay off the debt, the new owners started clear-cutting
>the redwood forest.
>
>Final result:  the company is bankrupt and the forest is basically
>trashed.  The loggers are out of work.  The lawyers and MBAs who
>forced this down the original owners' throats are looking for new 
>yachts and vacation homes.
>
>Merry Christmas.
>
>(Yes, I know I'm on alt.pagan.  Just remember the centerpiece of
>the Christmas celebration -- a chopped down tree!)
>
Which just goes to show the wonders of unfettered capitalism. I'd like
to see laws preventing takeovers that put the company being taken over
into debt to finance the takeover.

	mark
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: a little mindless bitching
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 22:37:32 PST

Re: a little mindless bitching
 
> From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan
> Subject: a little mindless bitching
> Date: 31 Dec 92 01:47:07 GMT
> While I was home, I got a few surprises -- good and bad, and had a few
> unpleasant feelings justified.
> what it is?  It's those goddamned niggers" actually escaped her lips,

Sometimes, you find that you REALLY can't go home again. Reminds me of
childhood memories from the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan... bad ones...
the smartest thing my parents ever did was pack the family up in '63
and move to California. 

My sympathies... at least you had the sense to get the hell out and stay gone.
Blessings...
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== sum saurus, sum saurus, sum maximus saurus! ====== 93 ======
 (slogan contributed by Jessica Mc Geary)  (translated by Murray Altheim)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
alizard@seer.mystic.com             |              Kallisti!
^^^use ONLY if all else fails       |  PGP2.0 public key available on request

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Public Image Limited VBBS (510) 831-3634 [MUDS] Free Internet Access.
Subs-On Request/PCP Via CALOAK...     VBBS 5.608

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: acsrdl@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: Re: A Darkover type circle
Reply-To: acsrdl@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 22:35:34 GMT


Good Greetings, all!
 
        Your account of successes and failures in various workings within
your circle was fascinating, Stayka -- that's the sort of thing I'd love
to see a lot more of, from different people.  And thanks, too, for empha-
sizing that what you reported was subjective experience; in my opinion,
too many people try to nail down "magical" phenomena into objective scien-
tific categories.  They just aren't amenable to that kind of analysis, a 
lot of the time.
 
        I'd like to second the request for a description of the four Realms
as you see them, [B.A. Davis-Howe].  (I'm tickled by the four-way division
of talents -- I tend to divide things into quarters myself, usually because
I feel there's an affinity to the Elements somehow.)
 
        ...And jeez, Bright Blessings for the waxing moon!  I don't know
if anyone else was affected this way, but this past week has been a _very_
cold and dark time for me: dishes piled in the sink, my car running poorly, 
me sleeping late... and today things finally turned around.  The eclipse
_bothered_ me, for some reason I can't pin down....
 
S>I agree, although I (i.e.\ our circle) have found out that it is a very
S>painful path. (That's why I'm quite certain - well, at least I HOPE SO -
S>that everybody who achieves mastery about hir powers is at least a little
S>bit wiser than to abuse hir powers... [And that from someone who certain-
S>ly has not achieved complete mastery yet. Although there are lots of
S>people who might scorn me for that - I became more and more humble in
S>view of the extent of the task still lying before me.])
   ...
S>I always try to believe that mankind might be reasonable and able to
S>learn. Am I a hopeless/ful idealist?! Sigh. (Of course I do watch the
S>news on TV...)
 
        I guess I'm a hopeless idealist too: I believe that some day _most_
people (or enough to make a difference) will "wake up" and achieve some
kind of mastery -- over themselves, over their lives, over *something*....
And then I go for a walk in the Mall, and I realize how far off that day
still is.  <sigh>
 
Dave Toal; Fairhaven, Massachusetts -- B4-2 t+ f- w- e+ g+ r p cv
 "Otter Aelfwyn"        Dragon; Sagittarius, Pisces ascendant
ACSRDL@umassd.edu  ...one of these days I'll actually write a .sig!
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Making contact via Circles - Was: A Darkover type circle
Keywords: Circles, Contact over far distances
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:53:58 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


Please forgive me!  Sometimes I just can't help myself!

In article <1hp5h1INNg46@unidui.uni-duisburg.de>,
hz225wu@unidui.uni-duisburg.de (Micaela Pantke) writes:

> First: Is there anybody out there who already has tried to make a
> contact of minds over a BIG distance?!

(giggle!)  I haven't had any contact that I can be sure came from
off the planet, but I HAVE been in touch with minds all over the
world.

I just use my magical keyboard and construct the incantation
"mxrn &", and up pops a Motif window into the minds and hearts
of strangers and friends both near and far . . . 

Uses intricate silicon crystals, too . . .

				- - Steve

				boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com


--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Types of Magic
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 21:19:10 GMT

drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:

>>BA> I divide magic into four major Realms (each of which has multiple
>>BA> divisions and subdivisions): Mentalism, Naturalism, Spiritualism, and
>>BA> Vitalism.

>*deleted*

>>By the way - what would you put in the category of vitalism? I'm not
>>quite sure how you would define that. Maybe you could post an overview
>>about how you would divide the kinds of magick. I'd be very interested.

>Same here; I got the first three - even used the same names for the first
>two (more or less), but made what is called here Spiritualism into what I 
>call Deity Magick.  But Vitalism?  I missed the original post, so I haven't
>the foggiest what is meant here...I suspect that I'd include it with either
>Mentalism or Natural Magick.

OK, lets take it from the top.  

Naturalism deals with communicating with natural entities such as trees,
animals, rocks, wind, etc.

Mentalism deals with the use of personal mental energy (often perceived as
an aura)--this includes basic psi, travelling/inner plane work, mind control,
etc.

Spiritualism deals with spirits--incorporeal entities.  This includes ghosts,
totems, etc, but does not have to do with religion/deities.

Vitalism deals with tapping into vital force, which is often called chi.  It
is the natural energy which everything which lives exudes.  Vitalism is the
least specific magic, in a sense, because it deals in raw energy.  The
typical ring dance to raise energy in Wicca is an obvious example of Vitalism.


I hope this clarifies.  I posted my partial draft of my taxonomy of magic in
this group several months ago, but recieved almost no feedback.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (William E. White )
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: a little mindless bitching
Date: 1 Jan 93 17:39:04 GMT
Organization: Ohio University, Computer Science Department

In article <2B42511B.1946@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>Or a little mindless steam-venting, whichever you prefer.

No, not mindless, thankfully.

>5) I must have heard "nigger" and "faggot" more times out there in two
>weeks than I have the whole year previous out here.  Not that the west
>coast is some paragon of racial tolerance; it sure as hell ain't that.
>But, Jesus, that is crazy!

Ick.  I thought the arguments here were getting bad; in retrospect, I
think that even though people may have disagreed (violently), it was all
disagreement over how to make the world a better place.  Maybe we should
remember this the next time differing views of the world come up -- there
are an awful lot of people who just don't give a rat's ass about anyone
who isn't just like them.

>Blessings,
>Janis 


-- 
|  Bill White   +1-614-594-3434     | bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu             |
|  31 Curran Dr., Athens OH  45701  | bwhite@bigbird.cs.ohiou.edu (alternate) |
|  SCA: Erasmus Marwick, Dernehealde Pursuivant, Dernehealde, Middle Kingdom  |
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lrabe@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee A Rabe)
Subject: Question/symbol
Followup-To: sender
Summary: double-bladed axehead
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 23:50:34 GMT


A question for the net:

Does anyone know the meaning/symbolism of a double-bladed axehead?  I have 
seen this sticker on the rear bumpers of several cars lately, and was curious
as to it's meaning.  

Thanks,

TopCat

Xref: sparky alt.pagan:14651 talk.religion.misc:24744
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: PAGAN, was You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 14:56:58 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b29

gene@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Dr. Gene De Lisa) writes:
> It's time for some facts. 

Now, if only we can find some *relevant* facts, we'll be onto something.

> Pagan is the term that early xians used in a derogatory sense for non-
> xians.

This is true, but irrelevant.  Two-thousand year old usage of vocabulary in 
other languages has very little bearing on current usage, aside from a 
certain amount of historical interest.  "Pagan" in current English usage does 
not mean "unchristian peasant" any more than "barbarian" means "someone who 
does not speak Greek," "senator" means a hereditary participant in the Roman 
government, or "gay" means "cheerful."

> You cannot be a xian pagan any more than you can be a non-xian xian!
> 
> Being a pagan does not mean that you follow x,y,and z but that you don'
> t believe in the xian, islamic or jewish god. Period. 

Sigh.  This is a popular usage, and is still the most commonly used 
denotational meaning.  However, there are a growing number of connotations of 
the word in popular usage, some of which are just as applicable to Christians 
as non-Christians.  Examples are an experiental, mystical, and experimental 
approach to religious experience, a very strong current of panentheism and 
focus on creation rather than creator, lack of dogma and codified doctrine, 
combination of older symbol-systems and philosophy in new ways, and so on.  
To many people, this sort of connotation is the essence of "paganism," not 
the particular choice of symbol-system someone chooses to use.

> btw., it really doesn't matter if you agree with this definition. 

As long as you are more interested in your dictionary than communication, no 
it doesn't.  However, words have no intrinsic meanings in and of themselves--
any meaning is as much a function of who is using it as of the word itself.  
If this concept seems silly or difficult, you might want to do some reading 
up on basic linguistics, or even take a course or two in it.

> You don't even have to agree what "red" is a color either. 

Red can certainly be used to denote color.  It also has many other, equally 
valid meanings, from political orientation to data security systems.  Some of 
these are closely derived from the color, some quite loosely so, or even 
untraceably so.



Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: George Paap <george_paap@email.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
X-Xxdate: Wed, 30 Dec 92 22:07:08 GMT
Organization: Motorola RISC
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d16
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 04:20:17 GMT

In article <30DEC199213204214@jane.uh.edu> Tammy Stark Blandino,
lib1p@jane.uh.edu writes:
>Go back and study the time period from about, oh, 50 BC to about 300 AD.
>After you do that then go and read the bible, placing the words in
context
>to the time period.  A whole new picture will arise in your mind.

I found Bertrand Russell's History of Western
Philosophy to have a very comprehensive
account of the philosophical and theological
development of the christian (Roman) church (as well
as stuff on all the Greek & Roman philosophies etc).
Its a bit patriarchal but it shattered my belief
in christianity (after Z.B.'s "Holy Book of 
Womans Mysteries" and "The Once and Future Goddess"
[forgot the author] caused me to begin to really question
my beliefs).  An that was without reading past about
1200 AD or so.

Joy and Mirth,
George

I am my beliefs.
(which almost certainly are not those of my employer)
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 1 Jan 93 00:15:00 GMT

In article <13XNwB4w165w@freeside.com> popec@freeside.com (PopeC) writes:
>Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>
>> In article <1992Dec31.015158.7606@serval.net.wsu.edu> 
>>  bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (William E. Johns;S23015) writes:
>> >In article <29DEC199212214576@jane.uh.edu> 
>>  lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>> >>
>> >>The early symbol of Xtianity was the fish, like is becomming popular 
>> >>today.
>> >
>> >Why was the fish a symbol?  Anyone have a good idea?  Even a bad one might
>> >be amusing.  :-)
>> 
>> It comes from a Greek acrostic phrase, which gives the word for "fish":
>> 
>>  Iesous = Jesus
>>  Christos = Christ
>>  Theou = of God
>>  Huios = Son
>>  Soter = Savior
>> 
>>  Ichthus = fish
>> 
>> It is one of the symbols found in the catacombs of Rome. It is
>> thought to have been used as a covert recognition sign for early
>> christians.
>
>Along with that, the four gospels are filled with fish imagery.
>The fishermen recruited as apostles, the miracles of the fish and loaves,
>the poll tax paid with a coin found in a fish, and lots of others fish 
>stories.

Given the late dates of most biblical writings, this doesn't answer the
question.  Why do fish abound in the literature of xtianity?

Cute pun, BTW.

Blessings,
Janis
From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Yule experience
Date: 29 Dec 1992 00:18 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1992Dec28.171851.1@gumby.mgi.com>, lares@gumby.mgi.com writes...


..post of beautiful ritual (and great idea) deleted.....

WoW!

I really liked that.  In fact I think I might use it next year. 8-)
Or some of it anyway....

We haven't done our Yule celebration yet.  We have Xtian family's, most
who are not aware of our true beliefs.  They expect the traditional
Xmas stuff.  We decided to wait and get all that stuff out of the
way first so we could concentrate all of ourself to the ritual.  I'll
try and remember to get back with you on it.

Tammy

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Faggots and witches (again)
Organization: QQQCLC
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:42:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.175528.3934@news.acns.nwu.edu> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>This is in a footnote from Robin Morgan "Going Too Far", in chapter
>"Politics of Sado-Masochistic Fantasies". (P235 paperback ed.):
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>... By calling _themselves_ "faggots," they affirm those homosexual
>males persecuted in the Middle Ages: "When a woman was to be burned
>as a witch, men accused of homosexuality were bound and mixed
>with the bundles of kindling (faggots) at the feet of the witch,
>and set of fire 'to kindle a flame foul enough for a witch to burn
>in.' So the enemy has always seen that strong women and gentle men
>are a real threat to masculine domination." This quote is from
>Double-F, A Magazine of Effeminism...
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Can any of you confirm or deny this further?

	Sure. It's complete and unadulterated bullshit. No surprise,
coming from Morgan.

						Kayembee
From: knighton@world.std.com (Gwen Knighton)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: A gift to share
Date: 1 Jan 93 07:40:43 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

I and several of my friends from around the country who are solitaries 
decided this year that instead of exchanging Yule gifts, we'd send one 
another our favorite blessings, invocations, rituals, and ritual poetry. 
What follows is my favorite of the many wonderful gifts of wisdom I 
received. It's adapted from an old prayer. I think it's relevant to this 
stressful time of the year. Hope it brightens some days out there. :-)
 
 
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ancient Lady of infinite sagacity, you know better than we that we are
growing older and will someday be old.
Keep us from the fatal habit of thinking we must say something on every 
     subject and on every occasion.
Release us from craving to straighten out everybody else's affairs.
Help make us thoughtful but not moody.
Keep our minds free from the recital of endless details; give us wings 
     to get to the point. 
Seal our lips on our minor aches and pains.
We ask not for improved memory, but for a lessening cocksureness when 
     our memories seem to clash with the memories of others.
Teach us the glorious lesson that occasionally we may be mistaken.
Help us to see good things in unexpected places, and talents in 
     unexpected people.
And give us, O Lady, the grace to tell them so.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
Oh, yea--happy mundane new year.
 
 
 
Gwen Knighton          knighton@world.std.com         (harpist for hire)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  When you have killed, and your bowl it is spilled, and your shoes are
        clean outworn,
  Back you will speed, for all that you need, to Oak and Ash and Thorn!
                        --Rudyard Kipling
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Nomenclature...i am confused (the W word)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 21:49:18 GMT

ddawson@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Dick Dawson) writes:

>Gerald Gardner (and friends) assumed the word witchcraft for their
>religious practices in England in the 1930's and 40's, eventually
>resulting in the repeal of the English witchcraft laws.  The term

The witchcraft laws were repealed for reasons having nothing to do with GBG
and friends.  The law was repealed because it discriminated against the people
in the religion Spiritualism.  Check out _The Rebirth of Witchcraft_ by
Valiente for the history on this.  (And a lot of the history of the early days
of Wicca.)

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The Antiquity of "Christmas"
Date: 26 Dec 1992 21:45 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <mtf.725403641@vipunen.hut.fi>, mtf@vipunen.hut.fi (Antti Lahelma) writes...
>In <MICHAEL.92Dec26125902@albert.bu.edu> michael@albert.bu.edu (Michael Chaplin) writes:
> 

...stuff deleted.....

>converting unwilling pagans to christianity, were the pagan feasts and 
>traditions adapted to christianity. It was relatively easy to convince 
>someone to worship st. Apollonius instead of Apollo, if you'd let the 
>person celebrate the soltices in a thin christian disguise. But if you'd 
>take the beloved festivals away, there would be rebellion. In most euro-

Since everyone is asking me about sources .... let me give you one for this.

Read Bede's "History of the English Church and People".  In it are letters from
Gregory the Great to St. Augustine on how to go about coverting the
people of what is now England to Christianity.  Once I get all my stuff from
storage next month I'll post the exact quotes if anyone wants them.

Tammy the glad she took "Barbarians and the Birth of Europe" as a sophmore.




Newsgroups: alt.pagan