HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wehumble@IASTATE.EDU (Ed Humble)
Subject: Re: BTech: MS-DOS Version Beta 0.2 ready (not)
Reply-To: wehumble@IASTATE.EDU (Ed Humble)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:13:06 GMT

In article <5799@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, demented+@pitt.edu (Scott E Berry)
writes:
> I successfully FTPd the file and unzipped it.  It takes a while
> to unzip and produces over 500 files.  The text based programs look 
> horrible but the maps look pretty good.  The maps include roads and 
> buildings.  The graphics programs take a long time to load the Icons.
> 
> I think that the files are being garbled in transmission it took several
> attempts  to get the complete file.  I tried ftp ing directly from
> a PC and ftping to my unix account multiple times but I eventualy
> got the program.  
>
	But did you get it to fire weapons?  There is an update file at the same ftp
site, but I've been unable to get it.  The directory structure is all screwed
up, and I am currently getting "Stale NFS file handle" when I try to go to the
directory Mechwar is in.  Has anyone managed to get the weapons fix program, and
if so could they put it on a different ftp site?  
 
> -- 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                  Scott E. Berry
>                                demented+@pitt.edu  


========================================================================
Ed Humble                |   Iowa State University   -  Moo!          
wehumble@iastate.edu     |   Dept. of Aerospace Engineering
                         |    Grad (Professional) Student
========================================================================
  "`Ecrasez l'infame.'  I looked it up.  What infamous thing do you wish to
eradicate?"

  "What infamous thing have you got?"
========================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: lunatic@netcom.com (Lunatic Johnathan Bruce E'Sex)
Subject: Re: BTECH - machine gun mechs
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 07:52:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom; Renegade User
Keywords: mechs BattleTech machine guns rules

In article <1992Sep10.131025.2320@HQ.Ileaf.COM> hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh) writes:
>The rule of 2 weapons per magazine has been there from the beginning.  It is
>often missed because it is mentioned under the limits of construction and
>component placement, rather than under weapons.

    \/\/ell, yes and no.  The original BattleTech rulebook states, on p. 39:
 
 "At least 1 ton must be used for each missile launcher's or ballistic
 weapon's ammunition."
 
 This is rather ambiguous.  Later on, the word "class" was added, to try
 to make it more clear.  Regardless, quite a number of the original
 FASA designs, in the same book and on the same page, had multiple
 weapons systems feeding off of a single ton of ammunition.  This
 includes the Thunderbolt, the Phoenix Hawk, the Rifleman, the Locust,
 the Crusader, the Stinger, the BattleMaster, and the Warhammer.  Most
 of these have two machine guns feeding off a single ton of ammo (you
 could say that each weapon had its own 1/5 ton of ammo, even though
 MG ammo in half ton lots wasn't added until later), but the Rifleman
 has two AC/5s feeding off of one ton of ammo, and the Crusader has two
 SRM 6s feeding off of one ton of ammo.
    ___
     |here isn't a single place where I've seen it stated that only two
 weapons can feed off one ton of ammo, and I've looked in the original
 rule book, the BattleTech Manual, the Compendium, and even the CityTech
 rules.  I'd be rather surprised if someone could find a page number for
 this.

-- 
    ________________________________________
   /  -= Lunatic Johnathan Bruce E'Sex  (: /
  /  lunatic@netcom.com  CI$:  76170,672  /  <----- Note new
 /  GEnie:  LUNATIC    AoL:  <canceled>  /  Internet address
/_______________________________________/
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: elm4252@zeus.tamu.edu (MOORE, ERIC LEE)
Subject: Btech-version 0.2 mechwar
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 06:56:00 GMT


i cannot seem to get a clean connection to the germany site.

131.188.1.43

has somebody here in the states or in texas been able to get
a copy that they could send to me i would be most appreciative.

please send the file to 

dload@ender.tamu.edu

thanks a bunch.

					Mok

a.k.a.  Mjr Kessel
        CMDR 537th Heavy Company
        (2nd Company on the horizon...<WHOA Salvage>..)
        Mercs employed by Federats

	How can you expect to outwit a maniacal genius on an
	empty tummy?   
					-Eve
					 Mann and Machine
From: rnlee@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Profess'nal Agitator)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: JUNTA - can someone summarize this game???
Date: 12 Sep 92 07:11:50 GMT
Organization: MAWL - Mudd Alums Without Lives

All this talk about Junta got me to thinking how long it's been since
I've played this game and two questions:

1.  Is Junta still in print?  If not, who carries it?

2.  Earlier this year, I saw a new game by Steve Jackson Games called
Coup.  My initial reaction based on the cover and the description on
the box was either (1) this looks very similar to Junta or (2) SJG
acquired the rights to Junta and is re-releasing it as Coup.  Even the
map looked similar.

In any event, what's the scoop on Coup?  Anyone out there have this?

Agitator
  #->

"A political deadend."                  Bruce Herschensohn for U.S. Senate!!!
    --Gore on the Vice Presidency when    Not the ten-year       //  The REAL
      asked about a Dukakis-Gore ticket   Congress insider      //   outsider
--------------- R E M E M B E R   B E I J I N G ------------\\ //------------
IBM PC - Who wants a politically correct computer?           \X/  Only AMIGA!
========================================== Bring Back the Caltech Cannon!! ==
Roderick Lee, HMC '91      "The Professional Agitator"      agitator@ucsd.edu
Xref: sparky rec.games.board:8609 rec.games.frp.advocacy:2131
From: Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: BTECH: it's own group.
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:47:10 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

I don't play Battle Tech and don't know anything about it, except that I would
favor it having its own group.  To be fair, the postings on B-Tech, like those
on Axis and Allies, seems to go in cycles.
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: c9036991@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (I CANT HAVE VULGAR QUOTES, THOUGH ONE SPRINGS TO MIND WHEN I THINK OF YOU)
Subject: Re: BTECH - machine gun mechs
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:29:10 GMT


> Yeah, but what is a munchkin mech anyway? What could be a perfectly
> logical mech for me, designed to do a specific task could really be
> a totally stupid mech for another. I personally would not get into
> a 40 MG mech outside of the arena, but the fact is, in an arena giving
> the short distances a MG mech IS useful. The Steiner arena for
> instance is only 3 1/2 BattleTech hex across and in such a limited place
> MG are perfect.
> 
> 			Karl
>

	What the hell use is a mech with 40 machine guns? Or more than 2
	machine guns for that matter ... I havent got the Solaris rules, 
	so you have to excuse me if i seem ignorant or rude, but if you stay 
	outside 3 hex range with a mech full of machine guns, its not going
	to hit you is it. (or is it????)

				Mathew

-- 



	Wayne's World, Wayne's World, Party Time, Excellent!
        Party on Dudes.

	It's a kind 'o magic !  ... Queen


	Well .. this is supposed to be a sig file. But i prefer to call 
	it ' Quote Corner '.


	Any original (and funny) quotes will be added, so email me ok!

		C9036991@wombat.newcastle.edu.au
	
			      OR

		C9036991@cc.newcastle.edu.au

	
		Just call me Mathew or BG
	
Xref: sparky rec.games.board:8610 rec.games.frp.advocacy:2132
From: peterw@cs.man.ac.uk (Peter Wake)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board,rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hostility in Gamers toward Certain Games
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:33:28 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.board
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <vm6pbdkl@csv.warwick.ac.uk>, bsrae@warwick.ac.uk (Dave Lockwood) writes:
deleted personal details
>I am hostile to a small number of games which either 
>a) don't work mechanically, never could have, and were blatantly sold without 
>   playtesting, classic example SPI's Armada

A good reason not to like a board game, or even a rule-playing game.
I can agree with this.

>b) games which rely on mechanisms which many potential players cannot
>   absorb intuitively, e.g., exponential growth as used in
>   Hartland Trefoil games such as Civilisation and 1829

Wooly assertions aside, what you're saying is that you don't like
games that you can't win at??
I must have introduced around 15-20 people to 1830 (a lot better than 1829)
and not one of them couldn't a 'absorb intuitively' the exponential effects.
After the first few shocks they soon caught on.  Hmmn.  I wonder why you've
had so much of a problem.

>c) games which are won by human politicking rather than mechanical means -
>   I get enough politics in real life - classically Diplomacy

I guess this puts you out of most roleplaying games then...

>
>>Take historical miniatures, for example.
>
> [...comments on views of minaturists]
>
>>"You play WHAT?" they ask.  "Isn't that a role-playing game?  I gave
>>that up years ago!"  And then I'm snubbed the rest of the game, and can
>>do nothing right in their eyes.
>
>My observation (which may be biased or unfair) is that most role-playing
>gamers have never had to work (outside academia) in the real world. Having
>done ten years in industry before becoming a mature student, I had to
>do enough role-playing and making up the rules as I went along 
>during working hours to want something more mechanistic as a hobby (see above).
>There is a definite tendency to give up RPGs at graduation. 
>One (very rude) view is that most people have
>to grow up at that point ;-) Another (equally rude) is that once you have a
>salary coming in you can afford something better :-). 
>It might be interesting to note how many flames
>of this paragraph have .edu or equivalent addresses ;-)

How big is your sample?
Sounds like your personal problem again, I've met plenty of roleplayers
in industry (I used to be in it myself).  Also some of the people that
I role play with never went to University.  There seems to be some
suggestion that roleplaying is synonymous with student.  Very narrow minded.
What makes you think academia isn't the real world anyway :-)

Stuff about miniatures deleted.
Reads like the poster never played Striker.

More deleted stuff

My academic opinion: badly argued and poorly researched C-
--
Peter Wake - Keep those guns away from me
From: kgnome@cs.concordia.ca (MATIS stephane)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: BTECH-RiflemanVarient
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:46:13 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec

From: m91kgh@tdb.uu.se (Karl-Gunnar Hultland)

> Other useful weapons at Solaris are Hatchet and machine guns
> 
> 65 ton mech with Hatchet, 2 LB 10X, and 20 MGs really kills off your
> opponents...

For those of you who wish to go the length, and "munchkinize" your
'Mech, have two hatchets, Triple strenght myomer and a VRPP cockpit.

That hurts a lot too! ( :-|   )


				> Karl
> 
> -- 
> 
> Karl-Gunnar Hultland              Vox Dei, Vox Populi
> m91kgh@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se

Roll!       ___      +---------------------------------------------------+
Over!   __ ( . )      From        : Stephane I. Matis
      _/__\(___)      Internet    : kgnome@cs.concordia.ca
    / /\\[==]//\ \    Working for : Monenco Systems Group 
   /_/  |THOR|  \_\   Working  at : Newfoundland Offshore Contractors 
  [00] _//==\\_ [00]  Writing for : Mecha*Press and FASA's BattleTech
      / _/--\_ \      		    Dream Pod 9
     |__|    |__|     "It Just Works... " - Steve Paul Jobs, CEO NeXT
     (__]    [__)     "Clam Warships are landing on Toycod !" - Anonymous
    [_=_]    [_=_]   +---------------------------------------------------+
From: 91vanderkolk@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Combat Values/ MNA
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:01:24 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University


Here is a question directed somewhat at Stephane, but if anyone can answer
please do so. My question involves Mechforce North America combat values.
First off what are they for C3 master computers and for C3 slaves? Also how
do pilots figure into the combat value of the mech fights. Ex. a very good
pilot in a 40 tonner could wax a not-so-good pilot in an assault mech. Also is
there going to be anything coming out with the clan honor (i.e. how they fight)
comming out? Also are combat values for vehicles in the works?
Also about the Gunslinger, do you think before you write Tony? For those of us
who run with "book" mechs an 85 tonner with 2 gauss rifles is perfect. Who
cares if it's slow, it has range. Of course a Nightsky or a Wraith could take
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: dave@admiral.uucp (Dave Litchman)
Subject: Re: Btech Muse
Organization: The Admiral's Unix System & The Grid BBS
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 20:32:20 GMT
Keywords: Help

In article <Bu0q45.8vJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly) writes:
>
>Hey, does anyone know what's wrong with the Btech Muse?

What's a Btech Muse? (when it's working, of course)
-- 
"Dammit Jim, I'm a free man, not a number!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ray, when somebody asks you if you're a god, you say YES!" -- Winston Zeddmore
Newsgroups: rec.games.board,rec.games.frp.misc
From: carlton@apollo.hp.com (Carl Hommel)
Subject: BTECH: mech02b.zip uploaded!  And there was much rejocing!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:12:13 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

I grabbed a copy of Klaus' game, *sucessfully* unpacked it, and even
played it a bit.  Wow.

As a Public Service, I have just now uploaded it into the appropriate
upload directories on ulowell, umich, and wuarchive.  I can't upload
it to archone.tamu.edu, becasue, of course, its down.  Whee.  I'm
sure that the umich people will soon move it into the btech directory
there; I don't know about the other two.

Here is some feedback on the game, just to whet the appetite.

1.  LRM weapons group in clusters of 5, just like falling damage. 
    Ie, if 11 missiles hit, you roll for three hit locations.  The
    first two take 5 points apiece, and the third takes 1.

2.  Shots from the rear seem to take off from front armor.  And after
    I jumped to the rear, too.  Sob.

3.  You should print out the potential damage/heat for weapons when
    you are selecting them.  Ie,
	LL	8	8
	ML	5	3
	SL	3	1
	Gauss	15	1	:-)
    Also, after firing some weapons, you should print out current
    heat on the top status line.

4.  Firing is supposed to be simultanious.  If my mech is destroyed
    by enemy fire, I should still be able to make a final fire back.

5.  I don't think that the LOS rules are correct.  On the default map,
    a mech in the heavy woods in hex surrounded by two hexes of light
    woods cannot see out, but mechs can see it.  This is opposite how
    things should work.

6.  If you have fired off all your weapons, go on to the next mech.
    Hitting escape and the space bar is unnecessary.

7.  Each Engine hit should add +5 heat.  Do Gyro hits affect piloting
    rolls?

8.  I assume that "Hit" stands for "Physical Attack", and has not
    yet been implemented.

9.  The Info available on mechs is rather cryptic.  Please detersify it.

10. I need some way of picking two arbitrary hexes on the map, and
    determing whether there is a LOS between them.


Please put in the rest of the 3050 tech.  Otherwise, people who are
playing in 3050 campaigns cannot use your wonderful software.

Carl Hommel
carlton@apollo.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly)
Subject: Re: One the best mechs is...
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 14:56:57 GMT

bkdavis@eos.ncsu.edu (B K DAVIS) writes:

>While flipping through the 3025 readout I happened to gaze upon a mech that 
>I believe is the best heavy mech for 3025 that a person could have.
>I am talking about the Grasshopper. I will take that baby up against
>ANY other mech 75 tons and down. Hell maybe even against a an assault mech or
>2 depeneding. It packs a punch. You can very easily modify it into a mech 
>to be EVEN more feared.


The Grasshopper is extremely limited in weapons range. I would take the
Grasshopper in a scenario where you know you'll be starting in close, but
in a scenario where you must close the range, the venerable Archer will
have you for dinner. 

Axly
From: cf324@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lawrence C. Vogt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: Looking For STOCKMARKET by WESTERN PUBLISHING
Date: 6 Sep 1992 19:16:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


My Appologies for posting this twice.  Since I didn't see it posted
I thought I goofed.  Its the first time I have tried this on the
Cleveland Freenet.  Sorry Sorry Sorry

Larry
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: books@fsunuc.physics.fsu.edu (Roger Books)
Subject: Re: Star Fleet Battles: strategy
Organization: FSU Physics Dept.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 16:40:02 GMT

In article <BuF6sr.6qv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tjz20735@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Zych) writes:
>Newsgroups: rec.games.board
>Path: mailer.cc.fsu.edu!gatech!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!tjz20735
>From: tjz20735@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Zych)
>Subject: Re: Star Fleet Battles: strategy
>References: <1992Sep10.133138.2286@wkuvx1.bitnet> <47tnfx=@lynx.unm.edu>
>Message-ID: <BuF6sr.6qv@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
>Sender: usenet@news.cso.uiuc.edu (Net Noise owner)
>Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:24:25 GMT
>Lines: 17

>quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) writes:

>>In article <1992Sep10.133138.2286@wkuvx1.bitnet> traveja@wkuvx1.bitnet writes:
>>>All SFB players,
>>>
>>> I want to know if anyone knows it I can launch
>>>these drones from my D-7D cruiser, tractor them at speed 20, and ram
>>>my hapless opponent with them. 

>>Tractoring your own drones breaks the lock-ons, rendering them useless.
>>(Re-read the Drone and Tractor beam rules.)

>Just for my edification, can someone explain why tractoring _your_ drone causes
>it to lose tracking, while tractoring your _opponent's_ drone doesn't?

>Tom Zych   tjz20735@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu


Oh no, he used the W word.  The answer is:  play balance.  If you can 
tractor your own drones and ram with them the Kzinti's become much more 
powerful.  If you can tractor your opponent's drones it hurts the Kzinti.
It would also hurt the Lyrans (the Kzinti's traditional enemy) in a big way
if you could tractor your own drones.  What would 2 or 3 tractored slug 
drones do to an ESG?  The Kzinti have the power to move speed 30.

You will find most of the odd rules in SFB are there for play balance.


		Roger
		books@fsunuc.physics.fsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: WH40K Avatar
From: <ALOHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Monday, 14 Sep 1992 13:06:13 EDT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

While I have not actually played WH40K, I have been putting together an
Eldar army for Space Marine.  In SM, the Avatar is included as a free card.
His spear can be used for both hand-to-hand and ranged attacks.  In SM,
the range is 15cm, which is fairly short, and it magically returns to his
hand immediately.  Hope this is of some use.

Aaron L. Overton
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: m91kgh@tdb.uu.se (Karl-Gunnar Hultland)
Subject: BTECH: Improved Axman
Organization: Dept. of Scientific Computing, Uppsala Univ.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 07:28:45 GMT


After an article I wrote a few weeks ago on the FASA 'mech Axman of
which I had only positive experiences I got some replys that
suggested some shortcomings in the design. Mainly its a slow mech with
limited range. Therefore I tried to improve on the design, and this is
the result.

1st Change FF Armor to Endosteel internal structure
    Gain 3.25 tons, no additional crits

2nd Change the AC20+2 tons of ammo + case for a
    Gauss gun + 3 tons of ammo (lower damage, improved range, more ammo)

3rd Expand the 11 tons of FF armor to 13 tons of normal armor
    Gain 11 pts of armor.


AXMAN AXM-2a  65 ton CV 4261

Walk 4 Run 6 Jump 4

                 Weight  Crits  Location
Engine 260 XL    6.75    6
Gyro+Cockpit     6.00    
Jumpjets	 4.00    4      2 in LL, 2 in RL
Endosteel IS     3.25   14
10 Double HS     0.00    0
Armor           13.00    0
3xML             3.00    3      3 in RA
L. Pulse laser   7.00    2      LA
Gauss Rifle     15.00    7      RT
Gauss ammo       3.00    3      LT
Hatchet          4.00    4      RA
=========================================
                65.00   43

Armor 13.00 ton 208 points

Head       9
CT        34
CT(r)      7
LT/RT     23
LT/RT(r)   7
LA/RA     19
LL/RL     30



By making these changes I not only gain long-range capacity I also
gain a higher combat value (for those using it) and in my own
opinion a better design.



			Karl

-- 

Karl-Gunnar Hultland              Vox Dei, Vox Populi
m91kgh@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: velardeb@hazelrah.cs.colorado.edu (Brandon Craig Velarde)
Subject: Re: BTech TR 3055 Errors
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:35:04 GMT

In article <8SEP199212211625@jane.uh.edu> chem7l@jane.uh.edu writes:
>I remember seeing a post someone made with all of the errors in TR 3055.  I just
>recently purchased TR 3055, so I would appreciate it if someone could send me a
>copy.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Jim Corbit
>Chem7l@Jetson.UH.edu

There is TR3055 errata in the BattleTech recordsheets TR3055 volume.  I
scanned through it at the store, and there was a page of corrections for the
3055 Technical Readout.  I'm sorry I didn't include any corrections in this
post, but I haven't bought the record sheets yet.

Brandon
A proud member of the Steel Vipers

Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Date: Sat,  5 Sep 1992 12:11:26 -0400 
From: Robert Everett Brunskill <rb6t+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: BT: Grasshopper!!

bkdavis@eos.ncsu.edu (B K DAVIS) writes:
>While flipping through the 3025 readout I happened to gaze upon a mech that 
>I believe is the best heavy mech for 3025 that a person could have.
>I am talking about the Grasshopper. I will take that baby up against
>ANY other mech 75 tons and down. Hell maybe even against a an assault mech or
>2 depeneding. It packs a punch. You can very easily modify it into a mech 
>to be EVEN more feared.

Yes it is, I've known that for quite some time.  The Grasshopper has the
ability to jump and fire all of it's short range weapons and build up NO
HEAT.  It might not be able to do as much damage in a single turn, but
the damage to heat ratio is great.  And the ability to jump makes it
great if you win initiative (who says backstabbing is unfair?).  You
will notice that TR:3050 does little to change the 'Mech, all it does is
trade the LRM with and SRM-2 Streak (somebody at FASA knows what this
'Mech is good for).  If you're using the Grasshopper in a campaign or
something where long range fire is a concern then you might want to back
it up (an LRM-5 isn't exactly the most effective weapon ever).  And then
there's always the possibility for a C3 computer.  Check out the Orion
too, especially its variants, a little modification on this 'Mech will
produce similar results as the Grasshopper.
There's also the advantage of surprise if your opponent has never seen a
Grasshopper before.

Rob Brunskill  AKA "The Phantom"
Words of wisdom: "Never stop a Locust 5 hexes in front of an Atlas."
(From experience)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board