From: kim@guppy.uucp (Isaac Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: golf shoes
Date: 25 Dec 1992 04:15:36 GMT
Organization: UC San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: guppy.ucsd.edu

In article <2934133818.6.p00168@psilink.com> "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com> writes:>>DATE:   Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:36:07 GMT
>>FROM:   Gregory Faulkner <skulldoc@carson.u.washington.edu>
>>
>>"James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>DATE:   Mon, 21 Dec 92 15:27:49 GMT
>>>>FROM:   John Vander Borght <john@sequent.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The USGA did a study and has recommende spikeless shoes as being better for
>>>>the greens.  My club has asked us to wear them.  The ones they recommend
>>>>are made by Footjoy and the soles look a lot like my Rockports with a
>>>>little larger ridges going across them.  We have an 18 hole putting course
>>>>where they don't allow spikes at all.
>>
>>>Glad to hear this.  Like I said, it was probably my imagination because 
>>>it didn't seem logical.  I think my opinion was formed watching some 
>>>pretty clumsy-footed people doing a number around the hole, twisting their
>>>feet, etc.  Come to think of it, they'd have really dug a crater with 
>>>spikes!  My comments on spikeless should not have even been made at all 
>>>because I've never worn a pair. I was just passing on comments from 
>>>those who have.
>>
>>Interesting, but from what I remember of the whole spiked vs. spikeless debate 
>>of several years ago, the opposite conclusion was arrived at - that is, that
>>spikeless shoes do more damage than spiked.  The reasoning was that instead
>>of poking little holes in the turf, aerating it, like spiked shoes do, the 
>>spikeless beasts simply compacted whatever was underneath, damaging the turf,
>>especially the greens.  In my own experience, spikeless shoes, while more
>>comfortable to walk in, did a lot of damage to greens, especially damp ones.  
>>They would create big footprint craters all over the place.  And it's my 
>>understanding that many courses prohibit the use of spikeless shoes, rather 
>>than advocating them.
>
>THAT WAS IT!  It was the FOOTPRINTS that I noticed.  Thanks, Gregory.  I 
>knew I had to have some reason for thinking spikeless shoes tear up the 
>greens, just couldn't remember what it was.  Wasn't my imagination after 
>all, just a poor memory.

I have to agree with you here Jim.  No, not about your poor memory,
but that spikeless golf shoes are worse than spiked golf shoes when
it comes to damage on the greens.  Both do damage, but the spikeless
golf shoes seem to alot more.  

However, I have some trouble with your next statements:

>Spikes concentrate a lot of the weight to
>the tips of the spikes.  Without them, the entire footprint bears the 
>weight, so instead of the spike holes you get big grooves and 
>depressions all over the green which are infuriating to putt over.  
>Anybody even suggesting spike marks are worse than those grooves can't
>know how to putt.  People wearing tennis shoes do the same thing to the
>greens, as you noted.

If the greens were rock hard and your spikes did not penetrate the
grass, then alot of the weight would be concentrated at the tips of the
spikes.  However, on normal greens, once the spikes penetrate the surface,
they no longer can support any of the weight.  Most of the weight is then
supported by the sole of the shoe, which can leave a slight shoe size 
depression on the green.  These can also be difficult to putt over.
If the spikes work as magically as you have suggested (concentrating
most of the weight at the tips of the spikes), then why is stepping
in one's putting line such a big deal?  It is because no matter what kind
of shoe you have, you will leave a depression which might alter a
putt.  As I stated before, spikeless golf shoes are basicly mini-cleated
golf shoes which will leave alot of bumps.  This is because the sole is
made of hard rubber which does not compress.

I see no mention of "people wearing tennis shoes do the same thing to
the greens" in Greg's post.  Spikeless golf shoes are different than
tennis shoes.  The Nike Cross-trainers I have have a shallow pattern
on the sole and are made of very soft rubber (like erasure rubber).
This soft rubber will compress, creating even pressure across the sole,
resulting in a slight depressed footprint similar to spiked golf shoes 
WITHOUT THE SPIKE MARKS. I (contrary to the stereotype non-golf shoe
wearer who cares nothing about course condition (see below)) am
very concerned about course condition.  At one time, I was thinking
about purchasing a pair of spikeless golf shoes, but after playing with
people who wore them, I decided they did way to much damage to the
greens.  I have watched all sorts of players with all sorts of footwear
trample across the greens, and I honestly believe that soft rubber
soles tennis or cross-training do the least damage.

Also, why do you think PGA Tour caddies exclusively wear tennis or
basketball shoes?  You never see caddies wearing golf shoes.  In fact,
in one LPGA tournament I was caddying in, a caddy of a local qualifier
(her Dad) was asked to remove his golf shoes and wear "less damaging"
tennis shoes.  Caddies do alot of walking on the greens, and I guess
the players want them to wear shoes which will do the least amount of
damage for them and the players which follow them.  Geez, do you
think the PGA Tour players have something against extra unnecessary
spike marks on the green?  
   
>As a statistical collection, IMO, those who wear golf shoes care more about 
>maintaining the condition of the course than those who don't.

Jim, would you quit with these "judgemental" stereotypes.  Do 
you actually have statistical data to back up this statement, or 
this opinion derived from your "years" of playing.  I thought you never
played with non-golf shoe golfers, so where did you get your opinions
from?  I have found from my many "years" of playing that there are
unfortunately golfers who will not replace divots, fix ball marks, 
rake traps, or drag their feet on the greens and they do these 
awful things reguardless of what kind of shoes there are wearing.
Mind you, I would much rather have a golfer drag his feet wearing 
tennis shoes rather than golf shoes.
  
> /666;    ',    jim tims
>////;    _~ -   p00168@psilink.com

Isaac (kim@bull.ucsd.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf