HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: folse@crs.cl.msu.edu (Mark Folse)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Ugly Americans-It's not our fault
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:48:06 GMT
Reply-To: folse@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Mark Folse)
Organization: Michigan State University

I think, however, that this is more an indictment of current gov't
policy re: drugs, urban employment and education, etc., than of
American character.  I wouldn't rush to jude Irish people, even those of
Republican sentiment, based on the behavior of the IRA.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celts-Christianity-Catholicism
From: Henry Corcoran <CORCORAN@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
Date: Saturday, 10 Oct 1992 11:08:02 CDT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network

> much deleted...
 I enjoy your debates also; this stuff if fascinating. Carry on.
                                                        Henry
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Sinead O'Connor's cute little performance
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:38:01 GMT

From article <CC.92Oct8130422@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk>, by cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke):
> . . . . . . .  It only became Catholic afterwards when travel between Rome
> and Ireland became much easier, and emissaries arrived from Rome...?
> 
> I'd guess that Sinead's anti-Catholic protest was more about the Irish ban on
> abortion and divorce and the Pope's anti-gay statements than about the
> conversion of Ireland to Christianity.
> --
> 	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
> 
I believe you are correct, wasn't it at the synod of Whitby in 650
ish(?), when the Celtic church took on the trappings of the Roman
church. Am I correct in saying that up to that point the principle
saints were John (as in the gospil writer), and Martin (rather than
Peter). Also, is it true that the Celtic church was based on a monastic
system with the highest office being Abbott, and finally, I think I read
that the Celtic church allowed monks to marry (which continued after the
move to the Roman system).

													GW
From: downey@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re:  SNL 10/4/92- What did Sinead tear up?
Date: 8 Oct 92 05:10:47 GMT
Organization: NIST



In article <1992Oct7.184316.24102@nlm.nih.gov> neve@nlm.nih.gov writes:
>Given Catholicism's history of backwardness on social issues, and in particular
>those relating to women (a matter about which Ms. O'Conner is well qualified
>to have an opinion) , the attacks do not seem out of place.

odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin) responds: 
>>  Okay:  It would not be inappropriate, therefore, for me to go to India to
>>  kill and eat a sacred cow simply because I'm a well-qualified hamburger-
>>  eater (and the folks who worship cows are just backward people anyway)?

>>  'Reductio ad absurdiam' perhaps, but it gets the point across.  Think about
>>  it.

What is absurd is the above analogy!  There is no comparison between being a
hamburger connoisseur and a woman's right to control her own reproduction and
her own life, both of which the Catholic church has had a stranglehold on for
centuries.  (Two subjects Sinead and any other woman is fully qualified to
have an opinion about.)  In fact, Irish women fared much better in terms of
legal rights (especially divorce), under the ancient Celtic culture and the
Brehon laws before Christianity and Catholicism were introduced.  For a
realistic picture of how modern-day Irish women (including some nuns), view
the Catholic church and its effect on their psyche and their bodies, read the
book "Women in Ireland" by Jenny Beale.  Jenny Beale is a teacher in Ireland
who traveled all over Ireland to interview women from all walks of life.
Maybe you might have a better idea why Sinead protests so loudly.

Perhaps we'll also hear from a few SCC Irish women (or men) about this
subject.   (or anyone who cares to comment)

I may not agree with everything Sinead does or says, but she certainly
has a right to speak up about women's issues in her own country.

>> ----- One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.-----

Unfortunately, some (most?) of the time, one man's theology has resulted
in woman's subjugation and subordination.  Patriarchy is integral to
Catholicism.

Laura  (Just call me Grania :-) Hope some of you get this)
downey@enh.nist.gov

*********************************
A woman's resolve to overcome
the constraints of her life
may do more to further the
cause of feminism than any
amount of theorizing could do.
Simply put, it is a matter
of survival.
        -anonymous

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Re: Going to Ireland
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 07:03:23 GMT


In article <1992Oct7.210957.20408@newstand.syr.edu>, crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes...
>Hi posters! I am going to Ireland for my honeymoon in June, and I would like
>to know if there are any special places to get a room, travel, see, etc. Oh,
>and what is it like eating out over there? I've travelled to England a few years
>back and ate inpubs. Is that what most of Ireland is like? The food, I mean?
>I plan on going out to the West and down through Cork as well.
> 
I went to Ireland on honeymoon and I'd recommend the Galway/Clifden/
Killarney areas.

	Craig
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: It's not our fault
Date: 15 Oct 92 10:13:02 GMT
Organization: Open Communications Forum

In article <1992Oct13.173855.1538@st-andrews.ac.uk> rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson) writes:
>Hmm...re the herders and reivers of the borders (though the highlanders
>showed some similar tendencies..) - these borders peoples are descended
>from Anglo-Normans!! So despite this desire to blame ones forebares for
>all current ills I am not sure you can blame cattle rustling on the gaels...
>And doesn't this thread really need some input from the philosophers
>concerning the nature versus nurture problem. What came first the peoples or
>the culture???


Oh my! I find I just can't let this one pass without comment!

Anglo-Norman cattle raiders? Not until they'd had a few centuries to assimilate!

I suggest you read the way-pre-norman tale, the   Tain Bo Chuailgne, (or the
Cattle Raid of Cooley, Anglicized version of title) ... Whatever else the
Sasenach may have complained about us Celts unjustly, the fact is that cattle-
raiding was thought of as a sport, more or less, by our herder ancestors (some
one here once compared it to certain East African herder tribes) spent a good
deal of time stealing cattle back and forth among themselves, with a very set
group of cultural rules surrounding it. When the Anglo/Cymro-Normans came into
the picture, their entirely different sense of how one looked at the ownership
of cattle caused a lot of conflict. (Culminating in the proscribing of the
MacGregors, who refused to give it up way after nearly everyone else.)

Never before have I seen anyone refer to it as an Anglo-Norman vice.

(Not that it's not possible that the Fitzgeralds, who assimilated faster than
the others thanks to a strongly independent Welsh attitude, might not have
taken it up on occasion, as they did many another Irish custom, much to 
England's horror... :-)

Slainte

Suze

trifid@agora.rain.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: The *SMILE* controversy
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:27:18 GMT

From article <1992Oct12.123749.2239@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>, by shazam@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu:
> 
> As far as my insisting on using the language of the *'s goes, I have been 
> involved in International Communication for almost 6 years.  I have used
> the *'s during this 6 years in order to add a more personal touch
> to my notes and conversations.  I did not come up with this 

Originally, I though stuff like *smile* was a kind of aside, however, I
now find that you have used it in a "regular" sentence. Could you
explain what you mean whenyou use *something*. I also do not understand
the :- bit either, could someone else explain that.

															GW

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: ulick@angelico.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Subject: Re: Sinead O'Connor's cute little performance
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:59:26 GMT

In article <1992Oct07.101600.6092@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk> skaamjm@ucl.ac.uk (Matthew Moore) writes:
>>entire act from her hairdo, illegitimate child, abortions, the bullshit
>>about the American flag a while back are all designed to shock, to help her
>>sell more records.  Most Irish people attempt to ignore her, in the expectation
>
>what makes any person more or less "legitimate" than any other? and
>who are you to say so?
>
>snarl, er, flame off, 
>

You're right.  I should have said her bastard child.  Sorry, I do not know
(nor would I use it if I did) the politically correct term for whelp
born out of wedlock.  You could ask your government.  I believe they have
this distinction.

>while many of the things you mention may be true, it is a little bit
>unfair for you to claim that the way a woman manages her fertility is
>designed to both shock and sell records.

Not how she manages it, but the fact that she publicises it.  I am sure
many otherfemale artists in the entertainment business have managed their
fertitlity in a similar manner, but I've never heard them, eh, brag about
it.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
+ 'There was a  master come unto the earth, + Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       +
+    born in the holy land of Indiana,      + Dept of Chemical Engineering, +
+ in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne'.+ Notre Dame, IN 46556          +
+      B'fhearr liom bheith ag eitilt.      +    ulick@bach.helios.nd.edu   +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Mr. Walker's comments about welfare.
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:17:11 GMT

From article <1992Oct11.222738.5429@morrow.stanford.edu>, by silva@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Holly Silva):
> 
> But in closing, I'd like to point out that Graham's original post
> was, as I'd mentioned above, a nasty piece of work for the most part.
>
> ======================================================================
> || Holly Silva			I have nothing terribly clever to say||
> || Applied Earth Sciences	today.  You're in luck.		     ||
> || Stanford University						     ||

I seem to have lost the thread of this agruement, could you again
indicate why you though my original posting was "a nasty piece of work."

														GW

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: il26@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
Subject: thanks to replies/contacts in Ireland
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 21:57:48 GMT




Just wanted to thank those who replied with some very useful
information and advice about my trip to Ireland. I'm looking
forward to it, and have met some interesting people through
the posting.

If anyone else has some more suggestions on living in Ireland,
I'm still open for more.

thanks again,

Robert Hunter
From: HINESMG@PURCCVM.BITNET (Michael G Hines)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scottish Newsgroup
Date: 12 Oct 92 21:55:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: PURCCVM.92286.165519HINESMG
 <BvnE1E.8JJ@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> <CC.92Oct5144946@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk>
 <Bw0vo4.3ox@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Purdue University

Can you get Irn Bru in the US? If so, where or what distributers?

Thanks from someone willing to try anything Scottish,
Michael
hinesmg@purccvm.cc.purdue.edu
From: ulick@stravinsky.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: now no longer Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:32:06 GMT
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame

In article <1992Oct7.094252.9308@vax.oxford.ac.uk> halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>heuristic American is more likely to be heard enthusing about real
>ale, or fine English cheeses, or complaining about Brussels banning
>prawn-cocktail flavour crisps. 

What!!!  When and why did they do this?  Eurocrats are getting ridiculous.
Banning all packageing in non-standard sizes was one thing, but prawn cocktail
flavoured crisps!!!  Are pork scratchings next?



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
+ 'There was a  master come unto the earth, + Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       +
+    born in the holy land of Indiana,      + Dept of Chemical Engineering, +
+ in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne'.+ Notre Dame, IN 46556          +
+      B'fhearr liom bheith ag eitilt.      +    ulick@bach.helios.nd.edu   +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Wanted: Demonstration ideas
Date: 16 Oct 92 12:00:05 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Oct15.203542.10868@infodev.cam.ac.uk> ag129@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant) writes:

   The embarrassing thing that Scotland doesn't have enough self-identity
   that it would feel happy as a separate nation.  Educated Highlanders
   like me would live in fear of being forced to speak Gaelic by born-again
   Celts from Peebles, with the backing of the Labour government that would
   be bound to follow any devolution!

How the hell do you work this out?  Labour have never come even close to
getting 50% of the Scottish vote.  At the last election the got 39% I think.
Do you *really* think a Scottish parliament would subject itself to the
current Westminster system of Disproportionate Representation?
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: iona
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:25:27 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Oct6.084535.23466@st-andrews.ac.uk> rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson) writes:

>If The Bishop's House is the name of a residence rather than part
>of the Iona Christian Complex then strangley enough the following
>address would work (Iona is VERY small and has very few houses..)
>
>	The Bishops House
>	Iona
>	Off Mull
>	Scotland
>
>Honest! I have sent postcards/letters/advanced publicity to manses
>and community centres on small islands off the mainland in my time
>with less details and sometimes only the first name of the contact
>for the tour and they allways got there!

Anyone see the UPS (or was it Federal Express ads) with the 
delivery person hunting for a certain Mr. MacDonald somewhere
on the Scottish Coast? ("Na, ye will be wanting the Black Jim 
MacDonald that lives 20 miles the way ye cam' frae..")









-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: mpdillon@uuisis.isis.org (Michael Dillon)
Subject: Re: Sinead O'Connor's cute little performance
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 06:54:07 GMT

> 
> Oh, come on, the conversion of Ireland from paganism was
> remarkably peaceful. St Patrick, St Columba et al were not
> warriors. Irish culture and catholicism are intimately linked,
> not at oppostion to each other.

Actually, there is some evidence that the reason for the easy conversion
from paganism to catholicism is that the druids (priest class) accepted
the teachings of early missionaries and recognised that the core of the
ancient christian teachings was quite similar to the core teachings
of the ancient druids. The outward trappings of the religions were
quite different, of course, but the initiated druids followed a more
mystically oriented religion (similar to ancient christianity) than
the ordinary people. 
 
This fits in well with the isolation of the Irish church from the Roman
one for many centuries and with the monastic practices of the Irish
which were radically different from those of Europe at the time.
 
As for Sinnead, well, she can say whatever she pleases, do whatever
she wants. It's a free world.
From: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: European superiority
Followup-To: alt.flame
Date: 8 Oct 1992 00:23:28 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.82

Ray Dunn writes:
>Who cares, it's really of little interest.  What is clear is that a point

"Who cares" is rite -- stick to the issues, not the people

>"proven" by manipulating and provoking the participants into extreme
>positions is bogus and an insult to those attempting to present sincere

I don't have a lot of sympathy for anyone "manipulated" into 
holding "untenable" positions.  Aren't they responsible for their
own actions & thinking?

>we don't need this sort of deliberate agravation.

Oh well. I take an aspirin when I have a headache.
May I suggest the "kill file"?
From: relihanl@ul.ie (Liam Relihan - CSIS Dept. - UL)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Sinead O'Connor's cute little performance
Date: 11 Oct 92 20:22:27 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

In article <1992Oct8.142530.21794@cabell.vcu.edu>, dresler@cabell.vcu.edu (Dan Resler) writes:

> This is too harsh; call her naive, confused, even foolish, and I
> would not protest. I do not believe, however, that she is insincere.

I sometimes think there is some publicist in the background feeding Sinead
inflamatory articles and books just to keep her "on the boil". 
 
>>Most Irish people attempt to ignore her
> This is not true. For better or worse, Sinead has a large following
> in Ireland. 

Hmmm, I think the attitude is...
"great voice, great looks, shame about the mouth".
I really don't think people get overly worried about her outbursts.

> Even the Taoiseach met with her several months ago to
> hear her views.

Must have been trying to gain some cred with the local music crowd.
Fine Fail politicians usually have underhand reasons for their actions.
I don't think he paid her a lot of attention judging by his party's
almost cowardly efforts as regards the upcomming referendum.  
 
> Ignoring her will not make her go away. Stop buying her records,
> however, might do the trick.
Any publicity sells records. With all this fuss I'm almost 
tempted myself to buy :-).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
	Liam Relihan
	Computer Science and Information Systems Dept.
	University Of Limerick
	Ireland
	
	E-mail: relihanl@ul.ie
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Ugly Americans-It's not our fault
Date: 13 Oct 92 14:36:03 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <1992Oct13.122537.24361@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> folse@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Mark Folse) writes:
>
>The Scottish/Irish contribution  is explained thus: "[They] were heders, adn
>hering cultures the world over seem to be inclined toward violence.
>


Could you type this bit in again, as I frankly can't understand what
you meant to type!


ta

M

( also a rotten tyrpist)





--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Date: 8 Oct 1992 18:15:59 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>I think Matthew [Huntbach] overstated the position on nationalism a little,
 ....
>I think his mistake was to talk about nationalism, patriotism,
>pride in one's country _per se_, rather than the *expression*

I think you have said this very well.  The words people choose to say
something can be very deceptive, because conditions differ between
different countries.  We also have to look at what people do[*].  

Have other people noticed that in later posts Matthew expressed opinions
that to me, at least, sound like some kind of Euro-Nationalism?
In one post he called on people to buy European products rather
than American, to increase European employment rolls.  To me this
sounds remarkably like the American economic nationalists
("Buy American -- Save Our Jobs"), except in the American case, the
enemy is Japan.  At the moment.

[*] In the US many of the _really_ far-Right religious zealots &
racists, of the type that some UK posters identified, hate the US
government & think it is an instrument of Satanism or Communism.  They
want to take up arms (& have) & overthrow the state, like any other
revolutionary group.  They are not patriots, tho they would identify
themselves as such.  But you have to listen to what they say after
they tell you "I'm a patriot" to know whether you've got the garden
variety or something altogether different.
From: erich@wubios.wustl.edu (Erich Schraer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of the name 'Aidan'
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:32:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: wubios.1992Oct15.143254.25407
Organization: Division of Biostatistics, WUMS, St. Louis, MO

In article <1992Oct14.161650.28300@coe.montana.edu> oususalg@cs.montana.edu (Glassy) writes:
>I'm curious as to how the name 'Aidan' is pronounced.  Is the
>first syllable a long 'a', a long 'i', or a short 'e'? 
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Lou.

I think I can help with this.  `Aidan' is an Old Irish name, which in
regularized spelling is usually represented `A/eda/n'.  (The `/'s are
accent marks over the `a's.)  The `ai' spelling is somewhat misleading
since in Old Irish that would imply that the following consonant (a
lenited `d') is palatalized, which is not the case.  It's possible that
`Aidan' may be an Old Welsh spelling also, since the name is found in
Old Welsh genealogies.

The name is a diminutive of the very common Old Irish name `A/ed'
(modern Irish `Aodh').  `A/eda/n' in modern Irish is typically spelled
`Aodha/n'.  It was not uncommonly found in early Scotland, there being
a Dalriadan king, A/eda/n mac Gabra/in.  As I implied above, it was
borrowed into Old Welsh (at least it's found in the genealogies), where
it was spelled `Aedan' and maybe `Aidan'.  The modern Welsh spelling is
`Aeddan'.

In Old Irish a pronunciation of the various letters would be something
like this.

    a/e         a diphthong like `ah' and `eh' run together, though a
		    long `i' sound is probably not far off.
    d           a voiced `th' sound (as in `the').
    a/          an `ah' sound.
    n           normal `n' sound.

The stress is on the first syllable.  The Old Welsh pronunciation would
be similar.  This is from memory, but hopefully everything is correct.

				--Erich
--
  / Erich Schraer                               St. Louis, MO  63110 \
 /  Division of Biostatistics                 erich@wubios.wustl.edu  \
 \  Washington University School of Medicine    Voice: (314)362-3681  /
  \ 660 S. Euclid Ave., Box 8067                  Fax: (314)362-2693 /