From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: LDS: Which God? (was: Nibley: Genius or Fool)
Originator: root@mogate.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:25:24 GMT


>>>  continued.....

    I began to wonder about Mormon Apostle McConkie's words, concerning
Jesus being Jehovah, while the father is a differnt god named 'Elohim'.
Also, I wondered who this 'Elohim' was, when the Bible states so plainly,

      'I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no God [Elohim]
      beside me.' Isa. 45:5.
      'before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.'
      Isa 43:10.

    Turning to McConkie's Mormon publication, _The Promised Messiah_,
I find,

        'The fact is, and Holy Writ so avers, that the three members of
        the Godhead are separate and distinct Persons; that they have
        their own bodies, occupy identifiable space, and are in one place
        only at a given time.
             Being thus aware of how far astray the religious
        intellectualists have gone in defining their three-in-one God, it
        comes as no surprise to learn that they thrash around in the same
        darkness in trying to identify Elohim and Jehovah and to show
        their relationship to the promised Messiah.  Some sectarians even
        believe that Jehovah is the Supreme Deity whose Son came into
        mortality as the Only Begotten.  As with their concept that God
        is a Spirit, this misinformation about the Gods of heaven is
        untrue.  The fact is, and it too is attested by Holy Writ, that
        Elohim is the Father, and that Jehovah is the Son who was born
        into mortality as the Lord Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah.'
_The Promised Messiah_ p. 100

     In the preceeding, we have the statement from Mormon Apostle McConkie
that to identify the "Supreme Deity" as Jehovah is "untrue" and shows that
one is "thrashing around" in "darkness."  In the same passage McConkie
repeats his (famous) "interpretation" of Psalm 110:1 as used by the Lord at
Matthew 22:41-46.  McConkie, writing for the Mormons, says,

       'Can there be any question as to how Jesus is interpreting the
        words of the Psalm?  He is saying that it means:  `The Father
        said unto the Son, Elohim said unto Jehovah, sit thou on my right
        hand, until after your mortal ministry...'

    Yes, there is a *GREAT* question that this is the true meaning; surely
no one who knew Psalm 110:1 in Hebrew would have gathered McConkie's
meaning, that's for certain.  "Jehovah was speaking to Adonai," not
"Elohim speaking to Jehovah."  All of the Lord's hearers knew that
"Jehovah Elohim" was the only true God; they never dreamed that Elohim
was an exalted man who had given birth to Jehovah!  Anyway, later on we
read:

       'Our Lord, who is the Firstborn spirit child of the Eternal
        Elohim, is himself also the Eternal One.  Implicit in his spirit
        birth as the Firstborn is the fact that, as with all the spirit
        children of the Father, he had a beginning; there was a day when
        he came into being as a conscious identity, as a spirit entity,
        as an organized intelligence'(p. 165).

    So, here we have the idea of Jehovah 1) being the spirit child of
the "Eternal Elohim," and 2) Jehovah having an origin in time.  Obviously,
then, prior to the birth of Jehovah, Elohim would not ever be identified
as "Jehovah," would he?  The separateness of Elohim and Jehovah with
reference to person is a constant theme of McConkie.  For example, on
page 294 he says, "It presupposes that the Father is one person, the Son
another."  Anyway, we also read in McConkie:

        In our present Old Testament, Christ is called the Lord, which is
        the anglicized rendition of Jehovah.  Thus, Christ is Jehovah.
        Our Messianic studies would fall far short of the mark if we were
        not keenly aware that these two great name-titles apply to one
        and the same person.  Such is shown repetitiously throughout this
        work (p. 306).

    Please note that these two great name-titles "apply to ONE and the
SAME person...."  In fact, McConkie said that it is "false" to believe
that Jehovah is the Father, and he said this with reference to the
interpretation of the Scriptures.  Note page 358:

        `Ye are the children of the Lord your God,' that is, of Jehovah
        your God, Moses proclaimed to Israel.   Even if it were falsely
        supposed that Jehovah was the Father and not the Son, as some
        sectarian Christians do believe, still it would be apparent that
        this statement could not be a reference to the preexistence of
        spirits...

    And when McConkie begins to present the idea that God the Father, was
the literal physical parent of Jesus Christ, he again identifies the Father
as Elohim (p. 467).  I see no conflict at all between what McConkie says
and what we find in the LDS dictionary:

        Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ and came to earth being born
        of Mary (see Mosiah 13:28; 15:1; 3 Ne. 15:1-5; D&C 110:1-10).

        Possibly the best known use of El is in Elohim, plural form
        signifying the "almighty" or "omnipotent," a name applied to the
        Father.

    Finally, in the LDS doctrine of the creation, Jehovah is instructed
by Elohim to "organize" the earth, which Jehovah does in company with
Michael the Archangel.  Obviously, this is the Father speaking to the
Son --  Elohim, one God, speaking to Jehovah, another, and lesser
(temporally speaking) God.  Again, McConkie on the 'seperate' natures
of Jehovah, and the Mormon 'Elohim father god',

        God is and can be known only by revelation; the wisdom of the
        wise does not make him manifest, and all the conjecture and
        debate as to how this or that ancient name-title should be
        translated is as naught compared to one plain inspired utterance.
        These utterances we have, and because of them we know what was
        meant by the ancient prophets when they spoke of him under his
        name Jehovah.  The Almighty has such names as he has, and these
        are known to man only when he reveals them.  We shall now, by way
        of illustration only and without any attempt at comprehensive
        coverage, note some of the revealed truths showing that Jehovah
        and Christ are one and the same person, the Eternal Son of the
        Eternal Father (p. 101).

    Two distinct persons, Jehovah the Christ, the Son of the Eternal
Father.  No mixture of the "names" here at all, is there?  And
McConkie asserts that we have "inspired utterances" to indicate to us
who Jehovah is.  And what was it he says on page 122?  "The whole Old
Testament is most explicit that the Deity in whose name the ancient
prophets spoke was Jehovah, NOT ELOHIM" (emph. mine).

>>> continued .....

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