From: n8940681@henson.cc.wwu.edu (R)
Subject: Re: Of giving up and getting on..(was Women vs Men)
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 07:44:47 GMT

oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:


>The main reason is religions (western religions anyway, I don't know 
>about eastern ones) do not approve of animal instincts.  They attempt 
>to control, sublimate, snuff-out animal instincts.  Except for 
>breathing.  Religion does not seem to have a problem with breathing.
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Huh?? Which western religion are you talking about? Have you
or someone you're close to been involved in this religion?
Sounds pretty permissive.


>Morality.  Who is going to raise and support the child is a valid 
>concern, but often its an interest in who "did it" with whom, 
>whether a child resulted or not.

I think the parable of the barn door applies here?


>>  2/. The amount of TIME spent on raising children. Basically
>>  THAT becomes the Great Work for 99% of parents. Josh is right
>>  (and offensive as usual :-) sigh). If you want to explore the
>>  various avenues of spirituality, you may find kids arte like
                                         ^^^
>>  an anchor. Great for keeping you in the same place - but that
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  may not be what you want.
    ^^^^^^^^^^
[noting qualifiers and positive notes about kids]

>The "various avenues of spirituality" were mainly devised by men, 
>so I don't consider them to be necessarily the only ways for me.  
>They're only little sign-posts anyway.  Everyone still has to 
>find their on way.

Weird response. Sounds like you have strong feelings about this,
because you missed his point, which is: 

Children tend to keep you in the same place.  If you want to 
explore an avenue of spirituality that makes staying in one 
place inconvenient or impossible, then the above tendency 
could mean you wont want children.

Interesting that you brought in 'the patriarchy'. I dont think
the 'various avenues of spirituality' in Leo's post were meant 
to be more male than female.


>(jobs, relationships, health problems, society).  Thinking of 
>these as opportunities for self development, rather than as 
>setbacks, can lead to powerful initiations.

But sometimes they just dont take you where you want to go and
you want to drop them because they're limiting you. Sounds
like a pretty matriarchal point of view on your part. [:) fthi]


>             I think the main "why" behind xtian attitudes toward 
>sex and children is power.  By controlling their animal 
>instincts, especially sex, priests were able to be superior to 
>other people and worthy of being intermediary between god and 
>"the flock."  This gave the church control over people (women, 
>children and non-priests), and made people dependent on the 
>church.  Why choose this route?  Because it was a drastic 
>change from how the pre-xtian society behaved.  Sexuality became 
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>evil; the old lusty gods and goddesses fell; and the new virgin, 
>celibate gods and goddesses were emulated.  Women became the 
>scape-goats for mens' inability to control their sexual urges, 
>and were cast as inferior and sinful.  Society changed, or 
>evolved to reflect this, with women being treated as chattel, and 
>losing inheritance and personal rights.

Which society? In Rome, Greece, England? Were women more equal
in society in 0 AD than they were in 1000 AD? Were they?
Interesting.


>For me breeding and raising a child is a powerful trigger.  I 
>don't care that its not an historically approved of method for 
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>spiritual development. Ptttttttttttttttttttttthhh!

It isnt? In which society? Ours? What century?

Raising a child is doing something. Most things are.


>>Tricking
>>oneself into letting go of desires etc. is just part of the process
>>:-)

>Once again, sounds like remnants of xtian patriarchal attitudes.  

The xtians didnt make this up, did they? They dont even practice 
it anymore (do they? am I wrong? that's what the confession booths
are all about, right?)

[...]
>I think its healthier and more fun to indulge oneself regularly, but 
>not to excess.  

The word indulge has connotations of excess. I'm not trying to pick,
I just dont know what you mean.


>If god were a well-hung hot fudge sunday, I wouldn't have so much 
>trouble with xtianity.:)

He isnt? Whose god?? The Xtian god? That's not what I heard...

>- Peggy -


Maybe I just dont understand where you're coming from, or dont
know 'my own' society. 

R     n8940681@henson.cc.wwu.edu