From: bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: Arggggh!
Keywords: true, ouch
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:14:04 GMT
Organization: Research Computer Facility, MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA

In article <1if96gINN6il@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk> mbrgw@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk (R.G. Walters) writes:
:In article <1993Jan6.143308.28695@linus.mitre.org> bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman) writes:
:>In article <1ielb9INNq9c@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk> mbrgw@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk (R.G. Walters) writes:
:>
:>stuff deleted....
:
:Yes, very relevant stuff.
 
No. Very irrelevent stuff. Standard agreements about handling preempts
over 2C have nothing to do with the problem you posted since you are
playing a DIFFERENT system.

:>>S  -                    You open 1NT (20+, any shape), and LHO leaps in
:>>H  K Q T                with 4S, passed round to you.
:>>D  K Q J 9 8
:>>C  A K Q 2              Pick a bid.
:>>
:>
:>This hand only has 12 cards.
:
:Sorry, slip of the finger - the "-" should be "9"
:
:>Your asking what to bid is a ridiculous question. You have not told
:>us what system you are playing, what your methods are, what options were
:>available to partner over 4S, what partner's pass actually shows, or
:>what your rebids show.  Under these circumstances your question is
:>meaningless.
:
:Read my posting again before contributing unnecessary flames. The whole point
 
This flame is very necessary. The answer to your question is dependent
on YOUR systemic agreements, about which we know nothing. Until you tell
us at the minimum what partner's pass shows IN YOUR METHODS, and what
partner might have otherwise done, your question is unanswerable.

Opening 1NT to show 20+, any shape is NOT equivalent to a Standard 2C
opening, and even when opening 2C the meaning can vary from one partnership
to another. I play it as an absolute game force except under VERY tight
circumstances. 

:was that this is the sort of hand you're going to have to cope with, whatever
 
This is NOT a 2C opening in any partnership I play. You are asking two
different questions: how does one handle preempts after a game force
opening and how does one handle it after a strong, but not necessarily
forcing opening.

And the answer to your question still remains that what one does depends
on what partner's pass shows and what he might have done. For example,
after 2C-4S-P this pass is FORCING in any standard partnership. Is it
forcing over your 1NT opening? Does partner's pass show a balanced very
weak hand? Would a double show cards or would it be strictly penalty?
Would partner bid at the 5-level on a long weak suit? What are your
AGREEMENTS?  

:the agreement. It was an attempt to start a discussion on the merits of
:different approaches - for instance, I bid 4NT on the above hand, intending it
:as unusual.  _If_ this is your agreement, then it works OK on this hand,
 
Oh beautiful. Unusual. On a 1354 hand. You aren't even CLOSE to an 
unusual 4NT call. You don't have 5-5 and you hand is well suited to
a heart contract if partner holds hearts.   What would double have been?
What did partner's pass say that could justify your bidding 4NT as
MINORS? If you think this is an unusual notrump rebid, then you have serious
deficiencies in understanding.



:but might you not want 4N to be to play with (for instance)
:
:S  K x
:H  A x x               (13 cards, this time :-)
:D  A
:C  A K Q J x x x
:
No I do not.
Where are your 10 tricks? Do you think so little of the opponents as to
expect a spade lead? You must play in some pretty weak company.

:which is not at all unlikely if you're opening with some sort of strong bid.
:So can we start the discussion, instead of nonsensical flames.
 
I suggest you take up knitting. Your knowledge of bidding is pathetic.
Your calling my criticism of your post a nonsensical flame shows that you
are so deeply lacking in understanding about the issues I have raised
that it is not worth arguing with you.

You keep harping on the question of rebids without EVER discussing the
meaning of partner's call over the preempt. This isn't bridge; it's
solitaire. Bridge is a partnership game.

:
:>I wish people would stop posing these kinds of ridiculous problems
:>that are HIGHLY system-dependent without also revealing their methods.
:>Your post is a waste of the reader's time and of net bandwidth.
:
:You're entitled to be irritated by the 12-card hand. Please don't transfer
:that irritation where it isn't justified.
 
Asking system dependent questions without giving your agreements is
ridiculous and the criticism is directed exactly where it should be.
--
Bob Silverman
These are my opinions and not MITRE's.
Mitre Corporation, Bedford, MA 01730
"You can lead a horse's ass to knowledge, but you can't make him think"