HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams
Date: 14 Dec 1992 17:49:57 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: zoo-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <1992Dec14.220952.22280@eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>In article <1gis5hINNbhc@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec14.171443.17268@eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>>
>>>policy could not make much headway.  Knin had been looking towards Belgrade
>>>but needed to understand that it should negotiate with Zagreb.  Quick
>>>recognition would help make this clear.
>>
>>Actually, Zagreb should also have been "looking toward Belgrade" during this
>>period instead of working with other countries to destroy a sovereign and
>>internationally recognized state (ex-Yugoslavia).  
>
>Zagreb WAS negotiating with Belgrade during this period, at length.  


You call secession without agreements about borders, minority rights, 
financial obligations, etc. _negotiating_?  Complex negotiations such as
the dissolution of a state are rarely going to be quick, especially when
all of the parties are stubborn and unwilling to compromise.  The old
saying that "haste makes waste" was never more true than in the breakup
of ex-Yugoslavia.

-Nick
 
 


-Nick
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: A modest proposal (was Re: Croatian dreams)
Date: 15 Dec 92 21:06:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Dec15.160658.18532
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <borbor-141292165503@129.194.82.105> borbor@divsun.unige.ch (Boris Borcic) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.085551.18427@husc3.harvard.edu>,
>stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> 
>> How is this quite opposite to the what I have said?  Serbs who do not want
>                                                      
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> to live in Croatia and Bosnia, i.e. all of them, would be removed?
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>                                ^^^^^
>> How is this limited?
>> 
>
>Is this a defining axiom ? According to my knowledge, there are, even
>in long besieged Sarajevo, still a few thousands persons who choose to
>stay and defend their city, and who do think of themselves as "Serbs" 
>and are so presented by their fellow citizens and the international media.
>


And I guess you still believe in fairies?


I should have written almost all of them, of course.  
You have written rather lengthy article based on this detail. 

So, how does this detail change the essence that 
95-99% of Serbs do not want to live in new states?  This 
was shown on referendum.  In both ex-Croatia and ex-Bosna
Serbs voted that in the case of collapse of the Yugoslavia
they are not going to join new states. Should all those Serbs
be removed?  

Regards,

Milan N. Stojanovic
Xref: sparky alt.politics.europe.misc:185 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10014
From: pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Klara Mandic (was: Re: Croatian dreams)
Date: 12 Dec 1992 10:21:00 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <1992Dec11.014050.3147@src.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.092847.18344@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>
>>What happened with the article about Klara Mandic? Or apology? 
>>
>>Milan
>
>Klara Madic, a Serbian propagandist, has been advertised as a "Jewish leader".
>I thought she was not Jewish at all.  Mr. Stojanovic claimed that she
>was genetically Jewish, brought up by a Serbian family.  If she was, she
>clearly did not receive Jewish moral teachings, because she has undertaken
>to spread hateful propaganda although she knew it was not true.  Here is
>what "Midstream", a monthly Jewish reivew, has to say about her:
>
<insults against Milan S. and Klara Mandic deleted>

  How easily you dodge the issue.  The issue here, Mr. Loncaric, is that YOU
claimed back in August that you have written proof about Klara Mandic not being
Jewish.  We're still waiting to see that "proof".

  Also, let me take the responsibility for being the "Serbian propagandist", as
you put it, since it was I, and not my namesake at Harvard, who originally 
posted the article about Ankica Konjuh.  

  We're still waiting for that "proof" or your apology, Mr. Loncaric.

Milan Pavlovic
===============================================================================
		M A C E D O N I A.....G R E E K   F O R E V E R
===============================================================================
Xref: sparky alt.politics.europe.misc:199 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10043
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:09:52 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <1gis5hINNbhc@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.171443.17268@eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>
>>policy could not make much headway.  Knin had been looking towards Belgrade
>>but needed to understand that it should negotiate with Zagreb.  Quick
>>recognition would help make this clear.
>
>Actually, Zagreb should also have been "looking toward Belgrade" during this
>period instead of working with other countries to destroy a sovereign and
>internationally recognized state (ex-Yugoslavia).  

Zagreb WAS negotiating with Belgrade during this period, at length.  

>victims of each.  Even though they have been taught by these masters of 
>savagery and brutality, Serbs still only want what is theirs instead of
>what they have the potential to take by force.  None of the media spin 
>doctors, none of the public relations firms hired by Tudjman and Izetbegovic,
>and none of the net nabobs will ever change that.  
>
>-Nick 

How comforting...  it must be hard for you to read the newspapers nowadays.
Virtually all of them see Serbs taking by force what isn't theirs.  This
perception, for all the public relations efforts by their victims, was
created primarily by Serbs themselves.  Wake up!!!

-Josip
Xref: sparky alt.politics.europe.misc:239 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10130
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: A modest proposal (was Re: Croatian dreams)
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:37:22 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Milan Stojanovic (stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu) writes:
)So, how does this detail change the essence that
)95-99% of Serbs do not want to live in new states?  This
)was shown on referendum.  In both ex-Croatia and ex-Bosna
)Serbs voted that in the case of collapse of the Yugoslavia
)they are not going to join new states. Should all those Serbs
)be removed?

With the current slaughter going on, I fear that the answer
will have to be yes.

No, I don't want to see it happen, and I hope that there
will be a future in Croatia and B-H (or whatever will
become of it) at least for the Serbs who are prepared
to live in the newly created states. But I fear that
eventually all will be shown the door, just like the
Germans in Poland and elsewhere. The Serbs who are
fighting the war have certainly made life very difficult
for their brothers.


-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Xref: sparky alt.politics.europe.misc:246 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10175
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:16:56 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Josip Loncaric (josip@eng.umd.edu) writes in response to me:
>>I didn't say that the Croatian leadership wanted war. I said that
>>they played the game Milosevic & co wanted them do. The game that
>>would give them enough excuses to start the war. Simply: they walked
>>right into the trap.
>
>No, Croatia negotiated about a peaceful resolution as long as there was
>any chance, however slim, that this war might have been avoided.  The
>moment Milosevic/JNA went to war there was no turning back.

Why "no"? You are not contradicting anything of what I say.

>>>Given Milosevic's push for war,
>>>the Croatian leadership did the best they could.
>>
>>There were a lot more things they could have done. They could have
>>clearly denounced Pavelic's regime. They could have scrapped the
>>Croatian coat of arms, which, although centuries old, for many Serbs
>>was the symbol of fascism, Ustasha and genocide. They could have
>>elected another president with a less funny litterature background.
>
>None of this would have stopped Milosevic,

Maybe, maybe not. But you said that the Croatian government did they
best they could. I pointed out a number of things that they could
have done better. Things that would have deprived Milosevic many of
the possibilities of gaining support for his propaganda. Instead,
they did precisely the things Milosevic wanted them to, so that the
war could fire off.

>and besides, you are wrong to think that Croatia had not clearly denounced
>Pavelic's WWII regime. Croatia elected a president who had FOUGHT AGAINST 
>this regime.

And since then have written books with funny lines about genocide...

>As long as you chase the red herring of symbolism, you miss the basic
>idea that none of this matters:  Milosevic wanted Croatia, and any
>excuse would have done just as well for him.

But he did not only need the exucse. He need support from Serbs in
Croatia too.

---------------

I think Ana M. Shane (pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu) summarized what
I am trying to say very well:
>Just a remark, without maliciousness: how easy it is to see wrongs of
>the "others" and to be blind to the errors and wrongs committed by one's
>own leadership.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc
Subject: Re: Leave our sheep alone
Date: 11 Dec 1992 20:34:45 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <924611154656@ibm3090.bham.ac.uk>, ANDY.UK writes:
|>   I think its about time those peasants across the channel stopped blaming
|> others for their inadequacies. Just because our sheep are so attractive, there
|> is no need to persecute them. On a less serious point if there is one thing I
|> would have thought could be left to market forces its the price of food. Is
|> there something inferior about French produce that makes the farmers think they
|>  need subsidies to be able to sell it on a world market?

This is the third fairly inflamatory message I have seen
from this poster in as many minutes.

Perhaps he might stop and consider if there is a slightly
more constructive way to make these points.

Protectionism in European economics is an important issue,
and there is an ongoing discussion in eunet.politics, and
it sometimes gets quite heated, but it focusses on facts, 
not schoolyeard taunts about whose sheep are most attractive.

The net is a place where people argue, but few people want
to argue with benny Hill.

jon. 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: The Swedenfinns seek official support from Finland
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:49:54 GMT

[ Article crossposted from soc.culture.nordic ]
[ Author was Jarmo Ryyti ]
[ Posted on Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:57:11 GMT ]

: This is a translation from the latest issue of Ruotsinsuomalainen
  (Swedenfinn) of the 10.12.1992.
: 
: FOR THE MINORITY STATUS IS SEEKED SUPPORT FROM FINLAND (was the headline)
: 
: For the aim of the Swedenfinns to attain an ethnic and lingual minority
: status is seeked now official support from Finland.
: 
: The issue is taken on the agenda of The Committee of the Immigration and
: Refugee issues set by Finland's cabinet, (Suomen valtioneuvoston asettama
: pakolais- ja siirtolaisasiain neuvosto), who gave the declaration of
: the minority status made by the swedenfinnish organisations for the Finnish
: governement last friday. (4.12.92) The Committee of the Immigration and
: Refugee issues for their part received the proclamation of the minority
  status during the  Roots in Finland-festivities last august. 
: 
: According to the committee, Finland shall include the Swedenfinnish
  aim for the minority status into  the issues in official  negotiations
  between Finland and Sweden.
: 
: On the communication made by the committee is reminded prime minister Carl
: Bildt charactrazing the situation of the swedenfinns. Bild has given
  a statement that due to a long common history of the countries,
   finnish settlements in Sweden and great numbers of swedenfinns give
  a right to give a special status for the swedenfinns.

Regards,
jarmo ryyti 
: 
: Ps. 
: That was very difficult to translate, because of byreucratical text.
  You should notice that Carl Bildt is a concervative. During the social
  democratical time swedish  governements aimed only to assimilate
 swedenfinns by all means. Lately with softer methods than earlier
 when even in legislation "finnishness" was a forbidden theme.
 (No state aid for the school where finnish was spoken.)

: As the peak of all swedish faschism Ms. Anita Gradin declared publicly
: "Sweden is monolingual and remains monolingual". She is a prominent
: politician in Sweden, normally you heard such speeches in South-Africa
: and in Nazi-Germany but Sweden is no exeption. Her speeches however did
: not rise international publicity. Source for the latest statement is
: an issue of Etel{-Suomen Sanomat, a respectful newspaper in Finland,
: issue of 11.12.92

Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams
Date: 15 Dec 1992 15:52:54 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: zoo-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <1gl572INNf83@PASCAL.MATH.YALE.EDU> wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:
>Instant historical amnesia:
>
>In article <1gl37iINNrmn@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:
>>...
>>When federal troops were attacked for attempting to hold the country
>>together, the wars started, not before. 
>
>It seems rather that when the Slovenes surrounded the Yugo Army
>barracks and those poor 19-year-olds in tanks sent to blow up the TV
>towers, that is when the war in Slovenia ended.
>
How could a war end that had not started?  The federal army did not attack
anyone in Slovenia; they merely attempted to maintain federal control over
the international borders of the country.  When the federal troops were
attacked, the war started, but quickly ended because Slovene secessation
was not problematic except in terms of finances (which could be arranged
after the fact) and because of the precedent it would set for Croatia and
B-H, which had much more complex problems to be solved before secessions
could be peacefully arranged.

-Nick


Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc
From: kurtovic@gold.cchem.berkeley.edu (Zoran Kurtovic)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: A modest proposal
Date: 18 Dec 1992 22:52:23 GMT
Organization: Dept of Chemistry, University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: gold.cchem.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec18.083422.18661@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <1grcomINNq2u@agate.berkeley.edu> kurtovic@gold.cchem.berkeley.edu (Zoran Kurtovic) writes:
>>>
>>>They have freely decided to stay in Serbian state.  
>>
>>Dear Milan,
>>
>>Is this a freudian slip, or are you saying that Yugoslavia was a
>>Serbian state?
>>
>
>You are right. They have decided to stay in Yugoslavia.
>From the initial nations of Yugoslavia only Serbs are left, 
>thus this slip.

What about Montenegreans?  Do you deny that they have a national
identity?  Also what about minorities in Serbia (Croats and Hungarians
in Vojvodina, Albanians in Kosovo, Muslims in Sandzak)?  Correct me
if I'm wrong, but isn't the Republic of Serbia (including Vojvodina and
Kosovo) only about 65 % Serbian?
>
>>As far as I know, Yugoslavia was not a Serbian state, but rather
>>a state for all southern slavs.  So what Serbian state did they
>>freely decide to stay in?  Surely, they were never in the Republic
>>of Serbia.
>>
>
>Bosnia was equally Serbian as Muslim or Croat state.

If this is true, why was it not possible for the Serbs of Bosnia
to be a part of Bosnia.  Isn't it true that they had representation
in the government?  Isn't it true that it was not possible for one
national group to dominate Bosnian politics because of the demographics?
Any government would require a coalition between different groups.
So doesn't it seem as if Serbs in Bosnia weren't content with being
equals but demanded special treatment by forming their own contry
(ie the Republic of Serbian Bosnia or whatever they call it)
where they would have rights denied to Muslims and Croats?

By the way, you didn't answer my question about former Yugoslavia
and how Serbs felt about it.  The question was, "Did Serbs feel that
Yugoslavia belonged to them more than it did to other southern slavs?"
If this was true, it would explain why the prospect of being equals
in Bosnia would be unpleasant to them.

>
>>>    [REST OF ARTICLE DELETED>
>
>Regards,
>
>Milan
>
>

Regards,

Zoran

P.S.  I do not wish to imply that all Serbs refused to be a part of Bosnia
as there seem to be some who have stayed in Sarajevo and who have fought
to defend it.
Xref: sparky alt.politics.europe.misc:212 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10078
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams
Date: 16 Dec 1992 00:53:10 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
NNTP-Posting-Host: math-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <1992Dec15.182440.18541@husc3.harvard.edu>
stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) interprets Croatian history:
...
>church.   External factor had huge influence on the strength of those
>parties.  Tudjman's work, his speeches and speeches of his HDZ 
>officials point from the very beginning that he belongs to the
>Clerical/Party of Rights wing.  No matter that HDZ does not 
>bear this name.  His " pro-Croatian " campaign was at the same
>time strongly anti-Serbian.

If you judge Croatian history from Serbian selecta you will naturally
reach some wrong conclusions.  Very few people have read all of Dr.
Tudjman's dissertation; the most widely-circulated English translation
was carefully prepared in Belgrade around the time of President
Tudjman's election.  Some might even say that the translators didn't
quite understand the language, seeing as how they spoke Serbian while
Franjo Tudjman wrote in Croatian.

At this time, Tudjman is one of the least militant political leaders
in any of the Republics that bloomed from the manure of X-YU.  For
example, Milosevic is calling Panic a "foreign puppet", and
Izetbegovic is calling for Western military intervention against the
Serbs.

President Tudjman is certainly proCroatian: after all, he is the
president of Croatia.  The Croatian national policy toward Serbia is
one of wariness and self-defense preparation, well justified by the
nationalist-flavored invasion so recently orchestrated by the Serbian
government.  Croatia's official policy toward its citizens is one of
equal rights.  I am sure that today intellectuals in Serbia can
argue for days over nuances in Tudjman's speeches, since it gives them
something safer to do than protest the genocidal war which has now
moved into Bosnia.  But to Croatians, these discussions are as
meaningless as the chirping of shrimp in the Barents Sea.

-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
From: jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc
Subject: Re: Leave our sheep alone
Date: 13 Dec 1992 17:51:20 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: zoo-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <ALTI.92Dec11203149@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> alti@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Thorsten Altenkirch) writes:
>
>You can survive without a car but not without bread. If there is
>something which shouldn't be (completely) left to the market.
>
>Sometimes I wonder why this completely ludicrious idea (Thatcher
>and others) "leaving everything to the market is always good" has so
>many followers although it is quite obvious bullshit. If there is a
>big flood coming do you also say "Sorry, we have to drown because we
>can't build dikes. We have to leave this to nature", or what???
>--
>
Actually, after the recent hurricane which devastated southern Florida,
many conservatives here in the U.S. did blame the victims for having chosen
to live in such a dangerous place.  They sought to prevent the U.S.
government from using public funds for disaster relief, arguing that private
voluntary relief efforts would be adequate.  Luckily, George Bush is not a
"true" conservative (ha, ha), and the government did fund disaster relief.
So, I suppose that the same reasoning would be employed by these people in
the case of earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanoes, and floods.

-Nick
From: alti@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Thorsten Altenkirch)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc
Subject: Re: Leave our sheep alone
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:31:49 GMT
Organization: LFCS, Edinburgh

In article <922911162923@ibm3090.bham.ac.uk> TREHARAJ@ibm3090.bham.ac.uk writes:

     I think its about time those peasants across the channel stopped blaming
   others for their inadequacies. Just because our sheep are so attractive, there
   is no need to persecute them.

No, but to eat them :-)

 On a less serious point if there is one thing I
   would have thought could be left to market forces its the price of food. Is
   there something inferior about French produce that makes the farmers think they
    need subsidies to be able to sell it on a world market?

Certainly farmers in Europe couldn't compete with american farmers
already because smaller farms can't produce so effectively. Leaving
the price of food to the market could destroy some very old social
structures and in the long run it may render Europe unable to feed
itself. Moreover the price of food should be subsidised because it is
a completely essential good and society should enforce sufficient and
environmentally friendly production of healthy food.

You can survive without a car but not without bread. If there is
something which shouldn't be (completely) left to the market.

Sometimes I wonder why this completely ludicrious idea (Thatcher
and others) "leaving everything to the market is always good" has so
many followers although it is quite obvious bullshit. If there is a
big flood coming do you also say "Sorry, we have to drown because we
can't build dikes. We have to leave this to nature", or what???
--

 Thorsten Altenkirch         	And there's a hand, my trusty fiere,
 Laboratory for Foundations  	   And gie's a hand o' thine,
 of Computer Science 	      	And we'll tak a right guid-willie waught
 University of Edinburgh     	   For auld lang syne!
Xref: sparky alt.politics.europe.misc:184 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10013