HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jhargiss@netcom.com (Jeffrey D. Hargiss)
Subject: Re: Interpretation of Coat of Arms
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 23:02:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

900998j@ace.acadiau.ca (TREVOR JONES) writes:

>Hello,

>I have just subscibed to this group and was wondering if anyone out there 
>might be able to answer my question.

>My family's coat of arms has puzzled me for a while.

>It is a mailed fist, clutching what seems to be a broken spear, set on a 
>braided cord.  The backgroud is dark blue.

>My family name is Jones, and my ancestors arrived in Pictou, Nova 
>Scotia, Canada from Wales during the 1770's.  I do not know how far back 
>the coat of arms goes, or even if it authentic.


Hi there,

The only information that I have for you at this time concerns the spear.
Spears are common for those from Wales.
 
This info came from the book, "A Complete Guide to Heraldry".
Which by the way is by NO MEANS complete!!!  This book is, in my opinion,
just barely a reference.  It only covers British Arms for one thing.  It does
do a fair job of explaining what goes where though.

If you can mail me a color photograph of the arms in question, I will do
more research for you.  If you will permit me to make a color slide of your
photograph, the photo will be returned to you as soon as possible.

I collect heraldry devices, and wish to compare yours to those I have on file.
And, if someone else has a similar coat to yours, I will pass this info on to
all parties concerned.
 
I do NOT charge anything for this.  This is a hobby for me.  I do ask that
you send in your letter that you grant me permission to pass your name  and
address to anyone that I feel may be able to help you.  (This is how I cover
my rear end on the legal side.  This is also the only way that I will put
the two parties in touch.)  Without your permission to give out your name and address.  All I can do is say, Yep- I saw one of those once.
 
My address is:  Jeffrey Hargiss
                200 E. Dana #C70
                Mountain View, CA 94041
                U.S.A.




>     /                                                      \
>O===|>>=============- 900998j@ace.acadiau.ca -=============<<|===O
>     \                                                      /
From: leino@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Antti Leino)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Interpretation of Coat of Arms
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:14:18 GMT
Organization: Keisarillinen Aleksanterin-Yliopisto

In article <1992Jul22.080018.7431@maths.tcd.ie> jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta) writes:
>	Oh, dear. Not a good idea at all to call Arval ignorant. He was the
>East Kingdom Herald for a considerable amount of time and really does know
>what he is talking about. 

In this case, however, he _was_ oversimplifying things a bit.  The
original question concerned Welsh arms, and Master Arval answered it
quite correctly.  However, the notion that arms belong to individual
persons is not nowadays universally held. 

An actual case in point is Scandinavian nobility.  At least in the
Finnish and Swedish nobility arms belong to families.  I don't know
precisely how old this tradition is, but I'm pretty sure it has been
around at least since the mid-17th century, perhaps as much as a century
earlier.  (In Finland the Heraldry Society of Finland has been
registering non-noble arms for a couple of decades, and they are trying
to revert to the original practice of arms belonging to individuals.  I
don't know whether Skandinaviska Vapenrullan, a similar register for the
whole Scandinavia, does this also.)

I seem to remember that in Poland arms are shared by several families. 
I'm not sure about this, however, and I don't have my references here at
work. 

-- 
Antti Leino                                     "The notion of code-switching 
University of Helsinki Computing Centre          presupposes that there are 
Antti.Leino@Helsinki.FI                          codes to switch."
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Subject: Re: Interpretation of Coat of Arms -- law
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 08:13:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.150100.25775@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>I wrote:
>> >I think you may be overstating the case, Seamus.  Scottish heraldic law has
>> >the weight of civil law; are you certain that it has the weight of civil
>> >law?  I don't think so. 
>Oops.  I meant to write "are you certain that it has the weight of criminal
>law?  I don't think so."
	Well, my knowledge on the matter comes from a conversation with
Scott MacMillian, Secretary of the Irish Heraldry Society and author of
one or two books on heraldry. He related a story to me about the Lyon
King of Arms walking down some promenade in Scotland with his armorial and
two assistants. For each colourful flag in front of a tourist office he
would look it up in his book and if he couldn't find it he would direct his
assistants to remove it. The shop owners couldn't touch him.
	The statements I made were based on that story. Looking at it again
you are probably right, i.e. his authority is confined to civil law. However
it does illistrate that, unlike Ireland, they are prepared to do something
about it.
			Abedo,
					Seamus

    %	   Seamus Donn		Eva de Barri            Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
   %|%	   Jo Jaquinta		Cathy Barry             Lesley Grant
/\\ | //\  jaymin@maths.tcd.ie	cbarry@maths.tcd.ie	lgrant@maths.tcd.ie
  =====			44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.
   /|\			for the Shire of Lough Devanree (Lough Damh an Ri'gh)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
From: jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Interpretation of Coat of Arms
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:16:45 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <1992Jul17.171732.25929@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>> ...and maybe (hoping beyond all hope) a bit of information on my family 
>> history. 
>
>To start with, do you know that you are descended from a particular man who
>bore those arms?  It is not uncommon for Americans (in the larger sense) to
>choose some British family with the same surname and use their arms as
>decoration, without any knowledge of genealogy.  Yu should also realize
>that arms do not belong to a family; they belong to an individual.  There
>is no such thing as "family arms".  Even if you are descended from some
>armigerous British Jones, you are only entitled to his arms if you are the
>lineal heir.

Yer showin' of yer ignorance laddie, me bye.  


True enough, in ENGLISH armory, arms belong only to an individual, and
are an object of unique inheritance.  However, England does NOT define
the entire world.  There are other societies than English, and other
laws of armory exist as well.

As a specific example, I cite Irish heraldic law, which holds that a device
belongs not to an individual but to the "sept".  A sept is analogous to,
but not the same as a Scottish Clan--it's a sort of sub-clan which had its
highest development in Ireland.

However, I will agree with one point, just sharing an armigerous name
does not mean that one is armigerous.  First, not all Irish families were
full septs, and non-septs had no arms.  Second, Irish family names were
forced to undergo Anglicization, which meant that very different Gaelic
names were made far more similar than they should be.

For example, my own name, Maloney could either indicate that one is
descended of a true sept (of the finest Dalcatian lineage) or that one
is a member of any number of small peasant families from eastern Ireland
(an area non-contiguous geographically or genealogically to the 
western counties of the Dalcatians).  The problem is that the damned
English pigs couldn't distinguish between O'Maldhomnaigh (the western
name) and the eastern name (of which I forget the original Irish spelling).



So, even if you're from a country whose heraldic law recognizes corporate
ownership, you may not be armigerous, even if the modern spelling of your
name suggests it.
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
Subject: Re: Interpretation of Coat of Arms
Date: 23 Jul 92 08:46:44 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
>I think you may be overstating the case, Seamus.  Scottish heraldic law has
>the weight of civil law; are you certain that it has the weight of civil
>law?  I don't think so.  In any case, I do know for certain that even in
>Scotland, heraldic laws are unenforced (and possibly unenforceable).

Lyon King of Arms is most defintely a legal officer in
Scotland, and heraldic law is a full part of the civil law.

Even in England where heraldic law is taken less seriously, the
Court of Chivalry, which decides on heraldic cases is still
legally in existence. It last met in 1953, and I think the
case was to stop a private theatre making use of the coat of
arms of the City of Manchester, something like that anyhow.
Admittedly, it hadn't met before then since the 18th century.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Interpretation of Coat of Arms
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:10:10 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Bryan J. Maloney) writes:

> As a specific example, I cite Irish heraldic law, which holds that a device
> belongs not to an individual but to the "sept".

I won't claim encyclopedic knowledge of Irish heraldic law; indeed, I was
not aware that Ireland had any such "law."  You can cite it?  Please do;
I'd be fascinated to learn details.

As it happens, you are correct that I was generalizing: I believe that
Polish armory has been used collectively by families since the 16th
century.  However, until I see clear proof to the contrary, I'll stick to
my statement for western European armory.

Seamus wrote:

> It has become common practice (largely due to the tourist industry) that
> people with the surname of one of the heraldically endowed families can
> display those arms. This is, as Arval points out, strictly speaking
> against heraldic law.  If we were in Scotland you could be arrested for
> it.

I think you may be overstating the case, Seamus.  Scottish heraldic law has
the weight of civil law; are you certain that it has the weight of civil
law?  I don't think so.  In any case, I do know for certain that even in
Scotland, heraldic laws are unenforced (and possibly unenforceable).

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Subject: Re: Interpretation of Coat of Arms
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 08:00:18 GMT

In article <54721@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
>In article <1992Jul17.171732.25929@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>>To start with, do you know that you are descended from a particular man who
>>bore those arms?
>
>Yer showin' of yer ignorance laddie, me bye.  
>...
>As a specific example, I cite Irish heraldic law, which holds that a device
>belongs not to an individual but to the "sept".
	Oh, dear. Not a good idea at all to call Arval ignorant. He was the
East Kingdom Herald for a considerable amount of time and really does know
what he is talking about. You can flout SCA heraldry if you want but the
English heraldic office takes it seriously enough to check it for conflicts
when granting "real" coats of arms. The Secretary of the Irish Heraldry
Society has told me personally that he has always considered SCA heraldry
to be "excellent".
	In this case where, being both Irish and having friends in the 
Heraldry Office here, I can say that I beleive you are wrong. It has
become common practice (largely due to the tourist industry) that people with
the surname of one of the heraldically endowed families can display those
arms. This is, as Arval points out, strictly speaking against heraldic law.
If we were in Scotland you could be arrested for it. I don't know if the
Irish Chief Herald has the same powers of mundane law behind him but in any
event they are not enforced.
	Ireland has only had a seperate office of Heraldry for the past
40 years or so. Thus it is virtually the same as English Heraldry.

	Well if you still refuse to accept what a senior SCA herald says,
or what an Irish person interested in heraldry says than I can only advise
you to go to the horse's mouth:
		The Office of Heraldry,
		2 Kildare Street,
		Dublin  2,
		Ireland.

	Yours in faith,
					Seamus

PS: If you have other questions about Irish Heraldry, Eva (address in .sig)
is our local Herald.

    %	   Seamus Donn		Eva de Barri            Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
   %|%	   Jo Jaquinta		Cathy Barry             Lesley Grant
/\\ | //\  jaymin@maths.tcd.ie	cbarry@maths.tcd.ie	lgrant@maths.tcd.ie
  =====			44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.
   /|\			for the Shire of Lough Devanree (Lough Damh an Ri'gh)
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Interpretation of Coat of Arms
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:01:00 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

I wrote:
> >I think you may be overstating the case, Seamus.  Scottish heraldic law has
> >the weight of civil law; are you certain that it has the weight of civil
> >law?  I don't think so. 

Oops.  I meant to write "are you certain that it has the weight of criminal
law?  I don't think so."


Matthew Huntbach wrote:

> Even in England where heraldic law is taken less seriously, the
> Court of Chivalry, which decides on heraldic cases is still
> legally in existence.

Are you sure?  I was told of a conversation with J. P. Brooke-Little in
which he pointed out that the Earl Marshall's Court was the only court
competant to try cases of heraldic law, and that it was dissolved by act of
Parliament in the late 1950's or early 1960's.  The person who recounted
this to me was the other party in the conversation.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Interpretation of Coat of Arms
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:26:02 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Tuomas Viljanen writes:

> However, most of the surviving Finnish and Swedish noble
> families have been ennobled during the 19th century, their arms showing
> the heraldic degeneration of the era. The heredarity of the arms is from the
> 17th century...

I think we may have a confusion in translation.  In English heraldic usage,
"hereditary" does not mean "used equally by all children".  English armory
is hereditary, in that it passes from father to eldest son.  Younger
children also inherit, but they difference their armory.  Thus, I think
what you mean is that Finnish armory is not differenced.

> In Germany, the arms of a family are also hereditary: the members of the
> family are differenced by the crest, the escutcheon is normally left
> intact.

Are you certain of this?  Could you tell me what your references are?  I
know for certain that cadency differencing was common at least in some
parts of Germany up until the 17th century.  

> Furthermore, the Polish arms are often of poor heraldic standard,
> possessing the additional tinctures of gray and brown (which are
> considered as stains in the Western European usage) and tendency to
> ignore the rule which states, which tinctures can be placed next 
> to each other; also the ordinaries are very uncommon.

I think it is wrong to describe Polish armory as "poor"; it is simply
different.  Different parts of Europe developed different heraldic styles.
Labelling any particular style as good or bad is an artistic judgement.  I
guess you are free to like whatever you want, but assigning a value to one
style is like calling all Japanese art "bad art" because it doesn't conform
to European stylistic standards; it simply doesn't make sense.  From the
point of view of the SCA, labelling one medieval heraldic style as "bad" is
like labelling 14th century Flemish clothing as "bad".  It makes no sense.
What is "good" depends on your goals.  Since the goal of an SCA member is
to re-create some part of medieval culture, the only reasonable criterion
is what was done in that part of the culture.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth,talk.environment
From: zmueller@utkvx2.utk.edu (Wilhelm Mueller)
Subject: Re: I like pollution a bunch
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:16:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.144812.178@lrc.edu>, dorham_r@lrc.edu writes...
>I kinda disagree with some of the ecological do-gooders.  I have no
>internal desire to save the earth.  First, the earth is much greater
>than I am, and it has it's own internal mechanisims for healing itself.
>Since I am pretty sure that this big old blue wiggly planet will
>last at least until I am dead,  I could care less!  After lunch today
>I will flip an empty Kentucky Fried Chicken box out of my car window.
> 
>I drive a 68 Caddy' that has a hole in muffler, and leaks oil.
>Disaster or what?
> 
>You keep cleaning up, cause people like me will keep you busy!
> 
>				toxic ted.

Ted,

I agree with you that the earth will heal itself, however, in its present state
the method that the earth uses to heal itself will most likely be to kill of 
humankind.  While it might be true that the earth will last until you are dead,
the same may not be true for our future generations.  Which you have either not
considered or do not care about in the first place.

From the nature of your post, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that
you have already made up your mind the life style that you want to live.  Since
you have made up your mind, I think that it would be pointless to pummel you 
with ecological rhetoritc, but I would like to leave you with one thing to 
consider.  Everything you do in life has repercussions in the future, so don't
complain if there comes a day when you have to wear a filter mask to breathe
because the air is so dirty, or you can't go to the beach because of all the
garbage, or you don't have any water to drink because the water is so poisoned. 
These results are not too far fetched.  Many people in Indonesia already have 
to wear mask as a result of the air, the beaches in New York are so choked in
garbage that many days the beaches are closed, and in India the water is so
polluted that diarrhea and dysentery are standard, and one is luck if he lives
to 50.

Just think about that while your throwing KFC boxes out your window and while
we continue to pick up after you.

	Thanks, Wilhelm Mueller 
		(ZMUELLER@utkvx.utk.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth
From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Subject: Re: OZONE DEPLETION
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 02:29:08 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.143042.5729@den.mmc.com> rea@den.mmc.com  writes:
>From: rea@den.mmc.com 
>Subject: OZONE DEPLETION
>Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:30:42 GMT



>Whats the latest on ozone depletion?

I'll have the whole scoop for you tomorrow a.m.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth Bell                                    Welcome to Mind Wars
Ericsson Network Systems, Inc                   You can force any entertainment
P.O. Box 833875                                 on a people except the consistent
Richardson, TX 75083-3875                       pursuit of a topic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cid@athena.mit.edu (Derek H Cedillo)
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth
Subject: Freon Phase Out
Date: 27 Jul 92 10:26:32 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

--------

In working at GE Aircraft Engines in Lynn, MA, I have noted
that the company is making large efforts to eliminate freon containing
agents from all phases of production.  In fact, as from what I have
heard that the complete phase out is 90% done, and should be
finished by 1993, depending on the progress of a new chemical 
being developed to perform the freon elements function.

I was wondering what the status of law was on freon phase out.
What about the ammonia substitute in refridgeration and air conditioning
systems? --any progress?  I know that the ammonia substitute systems
have a slight problem with exploding and catching fire, but 
how much improvement has been done on it?  Thanks for any info.

Derek
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth,talk.environment
From: wcstom@alfred.carleton.ca (Tom Hamill)
Subject: Re: OZONE DEPLETION
Followup-To: alt.save.the.earth
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:49:33 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.143042.5729@den.mmc.com> rea@den.mmc.com  writes:
>
>Whats the latest on ozone depletion?
>
There isn't any.

Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth,talk.environment
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Please help mitigate destruction by World Bank (2)
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:18:02

Has Cameron Spitzer evaluated the possible harmful effects of the
World Bank changing its lending policy in the manner proposed.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth,misc.activism.progressive
From: dbeachle@csn.org (Dave Beachley)
Subject: Russian Environmental Problems
Followup-To: alt.activism.d
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:37:56 GMT

Hi!

I'm trying to find information on the sad state of the environment
in what was the Soviet Union.  I am interested in all areas of 
pollutants/contaminants, and all areas of the former Soviet Union.
Specifically, the Aral Sea crisis, radiation from the Chernobyl
accident and from other nuclear sites, chemical waste and nuclear
waste...the list is very long, so any info you might have would
be appreciated.

Thanks much,
Yash Holbrook <yholbroo@nyx.cs.du.edu> and c/o <dbeachle.csn.org>

Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth,talk.environment
From: de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill)
Subject: Re: Rainforest Action Network's Alert #74
Organization: Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:14:50 GMT

Let's have an impact statement from John McCarthy that would include the harm 
that all these impact statements he's requesting might do.  And let's have
another that would include the harm that readers reacting to his articles might
do.

Dave Sill, Computing and Telecommunications Division, Oak Ridge, TN 37831
*
They who refuse to think are doomed.