From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 12:57:46 GMT
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                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

>>ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
:   Dear Friends;
: 
:   Whenever someone tells me that my Paganism isn't a religion,
 I feel pretty hurt.
: It sounds to me like not just an attack on what I call myself but also
 on everything : I hold as sacred.<<

You're not alone in this feeling. Yet many people here who think it's quite
smart to always have the last word, who presume to be "authority"
on the English language (a language that is always changing) seem to always
manage to digress from the original message of the post to make their "personal"opinions obvious regardless of other's feelings only with the intent that
they are sensitive while others are not.


 
>> I can see that some people thought I saying that their religion doesn't exist: or exists only as I see it, or that they shouldn't talk of it. 
:  I've already said it, but I'll say it again -- Sorry,
: everyone.  I was being very selfish and not paying much attention to anyone's
: hurt feelings other than my own.  It was only my intent to defend myself, not
: attack anyone else.<<


I did not feel you came across attacking anyone at all. You simply stated
your feelings, no different than anybody else is doing. Unfortunately on a
net where faces are not seen and is a rather impersonal way of communication
it does seem that way sometimes. Your posts were magnificent! 
 
Your posts understood more of the original intent than many others that
followed.

>>:   Susan certainly hasn't said that my particular Paganism isn't a religion,
 she's only said that she wouldn't call my religion Paganism,
 and that Paganism itself isn't a religion.  Seems to me that Bill and
 some others feel the same way.
: 
:   I guess I'm ok with that,...<<


If they really knew what they were talking about. But by their sweeping
statements and self contradictions it's obvious they do not!


>> :if you guys will please stop responding to my posts with "paganism isn't
 a religion".  It does sound to me like you're being pretty intollerant
: of what I call myself and how I worship when you continue to point out this
: disagreement.
: 
: Susan said;
:  >"The "paganism is/isn't a religion" argument is one that we have here
: >quite often.  That in part is why the response to your remarks was as
: >swift and as intense as it was."<<<

That's one of the points for which reason a conclusion should be considered.
Notice I said *should* not *has* to, yet this may arouse the frill of the
ostentatious that when they can't argue the idea they'll become preoccupied
with spelling or some other technicality.

Susan is right. It IS an argument that is far too often argued here. As
alt.pagan there should be some agreement on this resolved so that we can go
on to other far more interesting topics to discuss, instead of regurgitating
the same old thing.
: 
>>:   I see.  Yes, there do seem to be some battle lines drawn. 
 I'll try to be more : sensitive in the future.
  In addition, I'll try to be less sensitive to people who
: don't like me capitalizing words like Goddess, Pagan, and Paganism.<<

Again, I repeat, that though the mentors of grammar keep us aware of
spelling and capitalization is good, it is more important that the context
and ideas of what we are talking about not be lost. After all a conversation
is a series of ideas that are discused with an obvious reflection of each
individual's view. This is healthy. But when it becomes a bickering
preoccupation of name calling it looses its point and digresses to nothing
more than a name calling spelling bee.
:

 
>>:   The beginning of this thread was only my second or so post, so the intensity of the  response was very alarming.
:   In solidarity with all of the people who do feel as I do, excuse me whilst I define my stance in the argument of; "Paganism ... Is it a religion?"
: 
: Susan said;
: >"Um.  Okay, here we are back to the same semantic thing.  I agree with
: >you that you're pagan; I just wouldn't call your *religion* paganism,
: >even though it incorporates paganism into it.  To me that's like
: >saying a Christian's religion is monotheism."
: 
:   What religion would you call me then?
: 
:   For me to not be able to call my religion Paganism would be like someone
 who doesn't like being a Luthern anymore being told that they can't
 call themselves a Christian.
:   Anyway, for me the Christian is to monotheism is as Pagan is to ? argument
: goes;
:   Pagan is to Paganism as Christian is to Christianity
:   Christian is to monotheism as Paganism is to polytheism
:   Wiccan is to Paganism as Luthern is to Christianity
:   Buddhism is to Paganism as Bodhisatva Tree is to a Mirror Reflecting Nothing
: 
:   DISCLAIMERS:
:   Actually, the Paganism to polytheism is entirely variable.  There's lots of Pagans who are, essentially if not in acknowledgement, monotheists. 
 I've also run into lots of polytheistic Christians.<<

Actually, Paganism is much more complex than "simply" polytheistic. But this
study seems to be beyond a lot of people's grasp as they are satisfied with
a personal interpretation rather than a study of the subject. 


>>:  The "Mirror Reflecting Nothing" is a funny joke, not a referencei
 to Paganism
:  I am, of course, trying to make a pun on the fourth ascendant master,
: and have probably failed.  And now I'm explaining it. 
: Double failure (>whack<).<<

There seems to be a lack of intellectualism and an over whelming
psudo0intellectuals on the net. Some are younger than they pretend and
haven't got the slightest idea of what a double entendre is. I have
unfortunately have had this misunderstanding her myself, quite a lot!
There is nothing you can do about that as they are deaf to any reasoning
once they've made their mind up.

: 
>>:  I accept fully that this is exactly opposite of the views of many people who call themselves P/pagan, and appreciate the people on this board who have
 pointed that out to me.  I'm glad this has been taken care of so quickly
 without it dragging on for eternity with my continual blundering on people's
 toes.
: 
:   There.  Now I've gotten to tell everyone how I feel, and what's been hurting
: my feelings so much.  Hopefully this hasn't hit anyone's button or been 
 interpreted as telling anyone else what they can or can't call themselves.
: 
:   If it has, well, drink some tea and read a good book and then write me
 in the morning and tell me how the crops are growing where you live.
  We're recovering nicely from the June frost, but the corn in lower areas
 is still kinda scraggly.
: 
:   I look forward to reading everyone's discussion of what they believe,
 hopefully augmented with some personal experiences or examples of how you've
 implemented your beliefs, and will endeavor to try to NOT get in the last
 word.
: 
:   Most of all, I'll try to not say anything which can be interpreted as a
 comment on the correctness of what someone else says they believe.
: 
:   Blessed be,  Ciaran.<<<


Ciaran, thankyou for your sensitive dissertation, it certainly shows
feelings that many others here feel as well. You will notice that in the
"Disclaimer" group usually only two or three are the backbiters on a
consistent level. Many others, express themselves on a more sincere level
sometimes because  they seem not to understand the presentation. It would be
nice if people could admit this, but some aren't as "sensitive" as they claim
they are.

The object of >suggestion< originally posted by me, was to effect to get a
discussion level of greater input and interesting sources. I have never
intented to dictate to anyone what or what not to believe. Yet, the best
that some can do is an attempt to digress from the topic by putting the
writer on the defensive.


Your post reminds us of the incredible juvenile attitude some people respond
to which in the end is far more insensitive than the post they complain
about. At no time in any of your posting did I feel you were out of line or
insulting. You stated directly what you felt and your subsiquent
explaination (above) is more than sufficient for me as I needed none to
begin with. 

You have shown wit, and humor. You show sincerety and togetherness that I
wish more Pagans had so that we could be more respected by those disclaimers
on the net or off to perhaps think twice before they emotionally blurb out
with vetriolic vehemence on a subject that they seldom do research about or
are terribly prejudiced by whatever their personal experience or influences
have been.

Paganism, as I once posted, gave the world, civilization. Art, music,
philosophy, astronomy, architecture, dance, "religion" and many many other
things that today many believe was spawned in the murky middle ages as a
form of pius expression. Few understand the meaning of the "reneissance" or
of the efforts post bubonic plagues.

Unfortunately even as I write, I know that somewhere in this there is
something that some one is going to argue about. I cannot be under the
paranoia to please everybody. I "know" what I am talking about. If I learn
that I need to stand corrected, I have the integrety to admit it without
fear of subjigation or humiliation as I stand by what I have to say.

Please, continue to post without fear of being misunderstood. That is
something we all will be by one person or another, at one time or not. 

You are fresh air to a sometimes pedantic stale enviorment that appreciates
your input more than that explainations that you have been made to feel you
had to make.

Eshin-Fun