HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dnelson@icaen.uiowa.edu (David Nelson)
Subject: Re: "Satanic Ritual Abuse" in the media
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 20:41:53 GMT

Jean Riseman <agape@igc.apc.org> writes:

> ...
> I am a ritual abuse survivor. I am 55 years old, and have been miserable all 
> all my life. I had these weird thoughts and reactions and no
> explanations for them. No therapist put thoughts in my head in 
> 1945, I can tell you. Of course, after all thewse years, I have no "proof"
> that the atrocities were committed, exccept for my symptoms and memories.

And that may be all the proof that ever is available, but it *is*
enough to convince me.  We aren't talking about a court of law here,
we're talking about validating a fellow survivor's pain.


> [deleted]
> I think that people have a real hard time believing how disgusting humans
> can be...

This is very much a true statement!


> Anyway, whether people believe or not, this is my life, and it
> has been a hellish one to live. Please keep an open mind to
> the possibility that my suffereing was real.

> Peace and love to all.
> Jeannie

Peace and love and healing to you, Jeannie!


I believe you.  I have two friends who have told me of their ritual
abuse and their abuse happened here in the conservative Midwest.

By the way, people who are delusional are delusional about the
*present* and NOT about the past.

The PrimeTime Live TV article was done in such a way as to slant the
viewer's conclusion.  

The article did *not* disprove the survivors' claims; nor did it prove
that the therapists were abusing the power of hypnosis.  There are
*far* too many survivors who remember without hypnosis -- the
journalist was using the unreliability of hypnosis as some sort of a
red herring to try to discredit *all* ritual abuse survivors.

People are afraid to admit (1) that humans are capable of such
atrocities and (2) that it might happen in their very own hometown.
Those who are quick to disbelieve ritual abuse survivors are (a)
sweeping aside the weight of psychological principles, and (b)
filtering the evidence to support a version of reality that creates
the least discomfort.

Ritual abusers are not clumsy, lower-class criminals -- many of them
are the elite of society and fully capable of covering their tracks,
especially if even a few of their number are part of the government
and other bureaucracies.

I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories, but I *am* certainly jaded
after having witnessed account after account from friends who had been
raped by parents, other relatives, husbands, and dates.  Having seen
that quantity and intensity of pain, I no longer am capable of
disbelieving in ritual abuse and the like.  And I am keenly aware of
the human need to deny the dark side of human nature.


Infer motivations by observing behavior!  *Why* do people need to
disbelieve in ritual abuse?  And what purpose is served supposing that
the survivors *did* concoct the stories?  Think!!
From: arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Mockery (was: We Have Been Trying to WARN YOUN!!!!)
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:45:03 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <1993Jan11.161148.26625@icaen.uiowa.edu>
dnelson@icaen.uiowa.edu (David Nelson) writes:

>I feel that the aforementioned satirical post minimizes, invalidates,
>and indeed mocks the pain of those for whom the ritual abuse is an
>undeniable reality.
 ^^^^^^^^^^
If only abuse *were* "undeniable"! In fact it's about the most deniable
of all crimes. 

[Sorry, I'm just being pedantic -- I'm nervous, as I'm about to re-enter
the hostile territory of sci.med, in order to argue, against a bunch of 
complacent and arrogant psychiatrists, that "mental illness" is not 
always a brain disease. If I don't come back, send a search party. :-) ]

-----

>[...] one might
>infer that he is a person incapable of experiencing compassion for the
>sufferings of fellow humans and, furthermore, perhaps delights in
>displaying his wit at the expense of others' pain.

Such people undeniably (!) do exist, whatever else might be in doubt.

(And some of them become psychiatrists; and some, incredibly, even
psychotherapists - whence, "the-rapists". I'm not making this up; 
I have actually met such people. They were heavily into denying
sexual abuse, and even the pain that results from it, and from 
similar causes.)

They are also attracted into other people's healing spaces, like
parasites feeding off open wounds.

I, too, wonder what lessons can be learned from observing their
behaviour. What drama in their own forgotten and denied past might
they be re-enacting? (It's not necessarily sexual abuse, IMO.)

-----

I'm refraining from comment on ritual abuse itself; I don't know
a thing about it. But even I can see that to say -- as one poster
did in response to your message -- that even arguments *for* the
reality of ritual abuse are irrelevant to a.s.a.r., is downright
illogical. If such abuse is real, then it's relevant; if not, then
it isn't. (Just my 2p worth.)

-----

I still feel like an intruder in a.s.a.r. Pity it's not called
"alt.recovery.sexual-problems" -- I would, undeniably, qualify
for participation in such a group.
--
Gus Rodgers,  Dept. of Computer Science, | Cinema's worst romantic dialogue? --
Queen Mary & Westfield College, Mile End | "Mechagodzilla's brain is  installed
Road, London, England.   +44 71 975 5241 | in my stomach!" "I don't care if you
E-mail (JANET):   arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | are a cyborg  --  I still love you!"
From: cloister@stein.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: confused
Date: 11 Jan 1993 21:13:57 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

an307@anon.penet.fi (poohbear) writes:

>sometimes she really thinks she doesn't want to get better
>a drive or force or something really powerful that
>blocks her

>she makes decisions to get better and to act better
>and then just gets possessed and masochistic

>she wish she understood anything about herself ever

>poohbear feels like eeyore

oh, poohbear, i wish i knew what to do that would help.  i guess all i can do
from here is send you lots of e*hugs*.  i don't know what it is that is getting
in your way of getting better, but if it is anything like what my obstacle was,
then it's probably just habits.  they take time and practice to change.  don't
get discouraged, ok?  you'll get there.  if we all got discouraced at our first
signs of failure, we'd never learn to walk even...
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: an307@anon.penet.fi (poohbear)
Subject: confused
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:43:50 GMT


sometimes she really thinks she doesn't want to get better
a drive or force or something really powerful that
blocks her

she makes decisions to get better and to act better
and then just gets possessed and masochistic

she wish she understood anything about herself ever

poohbear feels like eeyore
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: sherman@sofbas.enet.dec.com (My name is...)
Subject: test
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 12 JAN 93 15:57:13 EST


test of anon.mail
From: cloister@stein.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: stopping cutting
Date: 6 Jan 93 01:17:19 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

anon.33@pax.tpa.com.au writes:


> anon-1498@twwells.com (Sierra) said:

>>Something
>>I use to stop that is that I have a lot of trouble hurting myself in
>>visible ways when friends are with me, because I know it makes them feel
>>bad.  A lot of times in the past week I've wanted to hurt myself but a
>>friend was with me and I couldn't do it.

>i cant do it with people knowing either.  and it's weird
>having an so now, because he sees parts of my body and
>i dont want to add fresh scars to old and have him see.
>it makes me feel so horrible becasue it upsets others so much.

well, just remember that the only reason they don't like seeing it is because
they care about you.  try not to feel horrible, ok?  remember the good parts
about being cared about, and try to care about yourself.  and remember that you
can't make someone else feel something; only they can decide/allow themselves
to feel specific feelings about your cutting.  you take care of you, and let
them take care of them.

>>Poohbear - I'm GLAD you're back!

>thank thank thank you  sometimes i am glad too
>poohbear

well, i know i've said it before, but i think it bears repeating:  i'm glad
you're back as well.  it always makes me smile to see you post because i know
you're hanging in there.  it especially makes me smile when it's a good healthy
supporting post like this one.  only you can say for sure, but it seems to me
like you're making real progress.
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
From: anon-1531@twwells.com (Stella Rico)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: relationships
Date: 4 Jan 93 12:00:55 GMT
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes

>I do have a question for everyone, though.  Some time ago I wrote
>about having money troubles.  I've been working on that; I found a
>second job and am slowly resolving this problem.  However, this leads
>me to have very little time for myself, especially for thinking
>feeling, and working through abuse issues.  Working on these things
>seems to have been "put on the back burner" while more immediate
>needs of mine are addressed.  Before I started the second job, I had
>started realizing that I do indeed have dreams (before that, I could
>only remember nightmares).  Is it possible to temporarily stop
>dealing with these issues, or does that mean just mean that I'm
>setting myself up for some hard times later?

  By all means take a rest from working on things.  I have been in therapy of 
one kind or another for 15 years.  I find I accomplish the best things after 
taking some time away from it all.  SOmetimes I just back off frequency, say 
one session a month, sometimes I stop altogether for a few months.  You are 
uncovering scary things and it is stressful.  You need to rest from time to 
time.  You will start again when you are ready to do so.

  Stella



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From: doug@cdc.hp.com (Doug Sojourner)
Subject: Re: Handling Sexual Acting Out by Child
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 23:55:43 GMT
Reply-To: dsojourner@cdc.hp.com
Organization: HP California Design Center, Santa Clara, CA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL7]

Karen Muldrow (karen@hal.COM) wrote:
: [description of her 6 year old son acting out, and the circumstances
: omitted]
:We were surprised that anything had happened between the two 
:children - because we had discussed sexual abuse openly (they come from a
:family that has experienced sexual abuse for several years).

Hope you're able to get some good advice.  I guess I'd like to make a
few comments (though I don't think it really qualifies as advice).
First, I doubt that simply discussing abuse openly will help - he is
trying to deal with some overwhelming feelings, and has learned (at
the same time those feelings were created) some very poor methods for
dealing with them.  Perhaps he could benefit from some counseling, if
you could find a good Family/Child counselor.  Anyway, if you are
going to work on it by talking with him, try and help him talk about
what happened to him in addition to your discussions on inappropriate
behavior.  By getting to the root, you are more likely to solve the
problem.  Especially help him express his feelings, which are likely
to include shame, helplessness, aroused curiosity, perhaps physical
pain, ...

Also, don't assume that since your younger children are boys they are
safe - there is a real possibility that by being younger they are even
more vulnerable.  After, the person who abused him abused a boy, so he
knows about abusing boys ...

Mostly though, I congratulate you on your courage in facing this
problem, and looking into where it came from.  You are doing what many
of our "non-abusive" parents never did for us: listen, see, and act to
end the abuse.

Thanks for showing me a better model of parenting (even if it feels
overwhelming right now ...)





Doug Sojourner

dsojourner@cdc.hp.com
anon-1158@twwells.com
an651@anon.penet.fi
Xref: sparky alt.sexual.abuse.recovery:9251 alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d:5
From: bill@twwells.com (T. William Wells)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery,alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d
Subject: Re: Thanks for nothing..bleah (a response)
Date: 13 Jan 93 05:43:17 GMT
Followup-To: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d
Organization: None, Mt. Laurel, NJ

In article <1993Jan12.134352.25282@das.harvard.edu> fkittred@endor.uucp (Fletcher Kittredge) writes:
: Hey Bill, I hate to be cynical (right), but why should I think that this
: testimonial to your honesty is not written by yourself?

There is, of course, no way to tell who posted that message. But
then again, any person with a smidgin of knowledge about the
Usenet system could, for example, have Mr. Kittredge appear to
have posted something like that.

Regardless, your posting, being nothing more than a gratuitous
attack on a member of this newsgroup, does not belong here.

Followups directed to alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d.

---
Bill                            { rutgers | decwrl | telesci }!twwells!bill
bill@twwells.com
From: cloister@stein.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Confrontation with my mother
Date: 9 Jan 93 22:56:10 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

tyger@netcom.com (Kristen Kohlbecker) writes:

>cloister@stein.u.washington.edu (cloister bell) writes:
>>anon-1298@twwells.com (Carol) writes:
>>
>>[ mom's denial and self-focusing deleted ]
>>
>>>Uggh. I feel exhausted. I never want to see my mother again. I want her
>>>OUT OF MY LIFE. 
>>
>>well, then, get her out of your life.  you're not obligated to keep your
>>mother.  you didn't choose her, you didn't sign anything saying "the party of
>>the first part agrees to keep in good stead this mother in perpetuity."  so
>>change your phone number, stop answering her mail, or even move so she can't
>>drop by.  
>>If you wanted to be really sneaky (and, i suspect, only quasi-legal),
>>you could have some documents forged up, and get a friend to dress up in a cop
>>suit and go over to her house:
>>
>>*knock knock*
>>

>[scenario deleted]

[ lots of good reasons why it's a stupid idea deleted ]

>and a few other things that escape me. 

>I'm sorry for Carol...truly I am, and I agree with most of what you said up
>to your vicious scare scenario, but only a grade A dingbat would do something 
>like that. 5-15 in jail won't do diddly for the recovery process.

>>now this keeps her from a) wanting to see the body, and b) wanting your
>>stuff, which presumably burnt to ash.  isn't that a fun thought?  well,
>>maybe.  fun to fantasize about anyway... heh heh heh.

>So long as it stays a fantasy...I still can't believe it was even suggested.

you're entirely right, it would be a *stupid* thing to actually do.  but still
i think that everyone has revenge fantasies now and then.  they have a real
place in our minds, and should probably be indulged once in a while--as
fantasies.  i don't see it as harmful to fantasize about getting even so long
as you don't let it take over your mind and start acting these things out.
still, you're right, i should have made this much clearer in my original post.
thanks for pointing it out, tyger.  and since i don't recall seeing you post
before, welcome to asar!

>Tyger
-- 
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|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: eoliver@ralph.cs.haverford.edu (Erik Oliver)
Subject: Re: Anonymous Posting Services (was Re: WOMEN ABUSES!!!)
Followup-To: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Organization: Haverford College Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 14:02:38 GMT

Um, how about the fact that not all of us get
Alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d.  :)

As you may or may not realize, alt groups don't necessarily get
propegated all around and if one newsadmin on the way up the chain to
our "primary" feed, somewhere around Penn State, doesn't get a.s.a.r.d
then we don't.  So, I would personally, like to see some of this
discussion about the anonymous service continued here.

- - - - - - - - 
About anonymity, I think anonymity creates as many problems as it
solves.  First of all, we all need to accept that fact that people who
run Anon posting services are _NOT_ moderators, they are providing a
double-blind posting service.  Therefore, attacks against the posting
service provider admin are unwaranted.  However, if you want to stop all
anon posting to this group, then that is definitely an issue to take up
with anon admins

Personally, I am starting to feel that ANON posting in general is a
_bad_ idea, not because it doesn't work, but because it works so well
and is so overused at this point.  Especially the mother of all ANON
services in finland, which allows anonymous mail to anyone and anonymous
posting to anywhere.

That server in particular bothers me greatly, frankly, in the bottom
line, I think a single anon server for a sensitive channel like this one
could be appropriate.  But, I don't think  ANON postings are appropriate
at a comp-group or a rec-group.

If anything, we should be moving away from anon postings and toward
coming out so to speak as sexual abuse survivors.  Hiding behind
anonymity is silly and only gives the appearance of protection.

- - - - - - -
I realize that I am not being completely coherent here, but I do have a
point somewhere.


-Erik
From: cloister@stein.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Hi...a re-introduction to all
Date: 9 Jan 93 23:50:40 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

v039eag3@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Amy R Phillips) writes:


>    Hi! My name is amy and I used to read this group a long time ago, but 
>had lost touch.  I am finally beginning to really deal with all of my problems
>and needed a place to let some of it out.  Thank you all for being here!

[ some incidents deleted ]

>   I never told anyone about these incidents until I was 20, but now they seem
>to be ruling my life.  I am trying to help myself, but soemtimes I just cannot
>seemn to get myself out of bed, so all the work involved with healing seems a
>bit much.
>    But, I am can truly say that I am ready to at least try.  And getting back
>to this group is a big step for me, thanks!!

welcome back, amy!  *hugs* to you if you want them.  i'm glad you're at that
point where dealing with your issues is something you can do.  and i'm glad we
can be here to help you with them, as well as to be helped by your insights and
thoughts.
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1421@twwells.com (Seeker)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: birthdays
Date: 12 Jan 93 23:20:42 GMT
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes

Birthdays:

Mine was 13 days ago (12/31!). I remind everyone around me
that it is my birthday. They say "Happy Birthday" and it
makes me feel good. It doesn't seem to diminish my good feelings
that I basically ask them to say it. 12/31 is a really crappy day for
a birthday, and I always felt ignored on my Birthday growing
up (was a noble martyr about it), so I try to do 
something special for myself that day. 3 people called this 
year and sang happy birthday.

-Seeker



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From: cloister@stein.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: still here
Date: 9 Jan 1993 22:15:19 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

anon-1317@twwells.com writes:

[ recent change in attitude towards sex omitted]

>before-- for the past 3 yrs - sex has been a comfort to me--
>now - i don't know--

well, try not to worry about it too much.  it probably means that there's
something coming up that you'll have to deal with which is causing you to feel
this way.  when it happens and you deal with it, you'll probably be able to
ease back into being sexual with your s.o.  until then, it's ok to not want
sex too.  you've explained your feelings to your s.o, and he seems able enough
to deal with the situation.  so go at your own speed.  do what feels right.  be
good to yourself.
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery