From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Subject: Re: "Arromdians" came to earth and abducted 2.5 million Muslims in 1914?
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:17:02 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <9301112058@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

+>In article <visser.726779613@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:

+>>	There is no open debate with a coward who is so ashamed of the material
+>>that he is posting that he hides his real identity.

+>"Visserian" of "convex.com" is having an experience that is common to
+>many pathological liars and ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists/revisionist who 
+>are in recovery and who are healing their "brain within". By the way, 
+>where does your shame come from, Mr. Mouthpiece? 

	You might be better to ask of your own shame, of why you hide
behind the name "Argic", of why you fear to debate your material or
answer challenges to it.

+>As for the numbers, 
+>I do have a copy of a demographic history on the question of the numbers 
+>which was published by a major American university press, that of New York 
+>University, copyright 1983. Its author, Prof. Justin McCarthy, is 
+>chairman of the history department at the University of Louisville in 
+>Kentucky, and a scholar whose expertise in this subject is so 
+>universally recognized by his peers that he was chosen to write the 
+>entry on 'demography' in the major reference work in the field of 
+>Middle Eastern studies, "The Encyclopedia of Islam." Nor has his 
+>expertise been ignored by the U.S. Government. Professor McCarthy holds 
+>perhaps the unique honor of having held a National Science Foundation 
+>'national needs post-doctoral fellowship in demography' and a National 
+>Endowment for the Humanities 'senior fellow' grant in history. 

	That paragraph is a nice introduction.  Because you and McCarthy
seem to be at odds in terms of the content and conclusions drawn from his
work.


Once Again, Using your OWN SOURCE! (Professor McCarthy)

*****************************************

Mr Argic, 

Please get your numbers straight with your sources.  You have stated that
`` As for the numbers, I do have a copy of a demographic history on the 
question of the numbers which was published by . . .  Prof. Justin McCarthy.''

McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
     Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
     New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Please review the figures in the book, particularly Table 7.10.  You will
find that the figure he gives for the population loss in the six eastern 
provinces is 1,040,376, not 2.5 million.  The latter is population loss for
Turkey as a whole.  How the Armenian dictatorship managed to ``murder''
more than 750,000 Muslims in Aydin and Konyai (wetern and southern Anatolia) 
is an interesting question of military tactics.  You also seem to ignore the 
McCarthy's estimates of deaths of Armenians (Table 7.7) and Greeks (Table 7.8) 
during the same period.  Perhaps you can explain how these losses fit into 
the Armenian dictatorship's master plan of genocide, unless you find these 
figures uncomfortable.  

You might also want to explain your reaction to the following statement
by McCarthy (p. 137): ``...[I]t is an error to speak of Greek deaths, Muslim
deaths, or Armenian deaths as if each somehow had a separate existence.
To mention the sufferings of one group and avoid those of another gives
a false picture of what was a human, not simply an ethnic, disaster.''

(You might also want to update your citation above.  The section you want
is pp 133-139, on Muslim deaths.  Pp 140-144 which you cite are notes.
Why not throw in pp 121-130 on Armenian population losses and pp 130-133
on Greek population losses, as well?)

Other Readers,

The tables below indicate broadly the story according to McCarthy. 
Approximately 18% of Anatolian muslims died. These included Turks
killed by Armenians, Turks killed by Greeks, Turks killed by Russians,
Turks killed by Kurds, Turks killed by disease, Turks killed by starvation, 
Kurds killed by Armenians, Kurds killed by Russians, Kurds killed by 
Turks, Kurds killed by disease, etc.  The population loss was general; 
areas away from the front were ravaged by hunger and disease. While more 
than 2.5 million died, some died in the east, some in the west.  The 1927 
census showed a deficit (relative to women) of 830,000 men in the age 
group 20-45, so a lot of military age men died.  The population loss in 
the east amounted to more than a million people, including both the dead 
and refugees.  Because of the large numbers of refugees, it is hard to 
say exactly which people died.  For example, Erzurum lost 31% of it's 
muslim population, while neighboring Trabzon lost only 4%.  This could mean 
that refugees from Erzurum are disguising deaths in Trabzon.

Meanwhile, McCarthy estimates that 40% of Anatolian Armenians died
(including, of course, those who were killed by Turks, those killed by Kurds,
those killed by disease, those killed by starvation, etc.) and most of the 
remainder made refugees.  McCarthy does not ignore Armenian deaths, although
some believe that he misestimates the prewar Armenian population, and 
therefore derives a low estimate of Armenian deaths.  (McCarthy discusses
the sources of this disagreement in his Chapter 3.)

					--Stuart Sechrest

Muslim population losses (McCarthy's Tables 7.10 and 7.11)

Province	Estimated	Estimated 	Proportion
		1912 pop. 	pop. loss	lost
				1912-1922
---------       ----------     ----------       ----------
Adana		   573,256	 42,511		    7%
Ankara		 1,263,199	104,823		    8%
Aydin		 1,734,179	333,230		   19%
Biga		   165,508	 24,793		   15%
Bitlis		   408,703	169,748		   42%
Diyarbakir	   598,985	158,043		   26%
Erzurum		   804,388	248,695		   31%
Haleb		   562,197	 50,838		    9%
Huedavendigar	 1,598,583	160,612		   10%
Izmit		   271,751	 12,039		    4%
Kastamonu	 1,305,279	224,679		   17%
Konya		 1,542,331	418,442		   27%
Mamuretuelaziz	   564,164	 89,310		   16%
Sivas		 1,196,300	180,413		   15%
Trabon		 1,178,655	 49,907		    4%
Van		   313,322	194,167		   62%
------------------------------------------------------------
Total 		14,080,800    2,462,250		   18%

Total for	 3,885,862    1,040,376            27%
eastern provinces

Armenian population losses (Tables 7.1 and 7.7)

		Estimated 	Estimated   Estimated 	Estimated Proportion 
		1912 pop.	1922 pop    dead 	refugees  dead
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
		1,465,148	70,000	    584,268	810,000    40%
		









+>Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
+>           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
+>           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.


+>Between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million Turks perished of butchery at the 
+>hands of the Armenians. The genocide involved not only the killing 
+>of innocents but their forcible deportation from the Russian Armenia. 
+>They were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of Ottoman 
+>Army was engaged in World War I. The Genocide Treaty defines genocide 
+>as acting with a 'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial 
+>part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.' History shows that 
+>the Armenian dictatorship intended to eradicate the Muslim population. 
+>2.5 million Turks and Kurds were exterminated by the Armenians. 
+>International diplomats in Ottoman Empire at the time - including Admiral 
+>Bristol - denounced the Armenian dictatorship's policy as a massacre of 
+>the Kurds, Turks, and Tartars. The blood-thirsty leaders of the Armenian 
+>dictatorship at the time personally involved in the extermination of the 
+>Muslims. The Turkish genocide museums in Turkiye honor those who died 
+>during the Turkish massacres perpetrated by the Armenians. 

	This was not written by, nor would it be supported by Justin McCarthy.
The above are YOUR WORDS and YOUR CONCLUSIONS.  Once again, I have posted
material that shows your conclusions to be at odds with those of McCarthy.
I once again dare you to answer specifically how the information that
I am presenting is wrong BY QUOTATION from McCarthy.
	The material shows that your conclusions about McCarthy are WRONG.
Will you debate now?