HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (wrist/forearm technique)
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:06:22 GMT

In article <1hpqd6INNon2@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>a few posts ago, andy says:
>"kote gaeshi is NOT a wrist technique, but one for the forearm"
>
>could you expand on that? do you mean that the arm should be straighter,
>i.e. the effect is more a 'shearing' rather than bending effect on the
>wrist?

	Kote gaeshi was originally intended as a method to evade, intercept
	and control a thrusting attack (with sword).  The technique involved
	trapping the offending forearm by grabbing the wrist such that you
	cause it to flex (i.e. bend inward, palm toward the inner forearm).
	Holding th wrist such that the forearm is more or less parallel with
	the ground, you guide the  hand rearward, fingers pointing upward,
	toward the attackers armpit.  When the geometry is right, the attacker
	will be commutatively locked from the wrist to the base of the spine.
	At this point a drop of body weight will put the attacker on his
	back right off.

	A primary purpose of this technique was to gain control of the sword.
	Without such control, the defender (or attacker) could be cut to pieces
	since you'd have a long and sharp object swing around every which way.
	Please also note that when the hand is so flexed, as per above, the
	grip of the hilt becomes extremely weak.  This is a reality of human
	anatomy (at least in most people, though there are probably a few
	exceptions out there).  This allows the sword to be easily taken from 
	the attacker and used to skewer him (why dirty your own blade if you
	do not have to?).  Also note that when the wrist is positioned like 
	this, the sword is pointing outward and away from both combatants,
	which is about as safe as you can get  under such circumstances.

	So Kote gaeshi does involve wrist manipulation, but it is not a throw
	from the wrist.  The effectiveness of the technique relies on a 
	commutative lock to get control over your opponents center of gravity.
	The primary lock is on the cg, not the wrist and this is achieved  via
	the forearm manipulation.  Likewise, the throw is from the cg and
	not the wrist.  The wrist acts only as a convenient handle.

	Kote gaeshi, as widely practiced, relies on pain and a fairly hard
	cranking effort, which is indicative of inferior technique.  Find
	a person with, say, a rubber wrist, and I'll bet dollars to donuts
	that the KG as commonly practiced will not succeed, leaving the
	practitioner in an unenviable position :(.  When executed per a 
	proper commutative lock, it is virtually impossible for it to fail,
	all other things being equal (which they rarely are :)).

	-Andy V.
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Beer War
Date: 4 Jan 93 03:18:44 GMT
	<1993Jan03.231802.14197@wisdom.bubble.org>
	<1993Jan4.011841.29773@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu's message of 4 Jan 93 01:18:41 GMT


In article <1993Jan4.011841.29773@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran) writes:

   In article <1993Jan03.231802.14197@wisdom.bubble.org> bleys@wisdom.bubble.org (Bill Cavanaugh) writes:

   >Heck, it hasn't been a war, it's been a discussion.  Mary, Bob, and I might
   >not agree, but we try to respect each others opinions.  You say potaito,
   >I'll say potahto...
   >
   And some people even say potatoe, right? :)

And some people say, "I flamed too soon," which is what I'm saying.  Sorry
about that, Bob and Bill.  I didn't mean to imply that you're a pair of 
irresponsible drunkards, although Bob has apparently taken it that way.  
I'm willing to chalk it up to my miscommunication and let it drop.  
Friends?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
From: Kenneth_Ferguson@rand.org (Ken Ferguson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Thai kickboxing
Date: 28 Dec 92 20:25:02 GMT
Organization: RAND
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1a2




   Bob, As a kick boxer myself let me tell you that Tai kick boxing is'nt
any better than any of the other martial arts out there. Tai kick boxers
are in a very strength related form of MA. Their hand skills are rather
primitive
to say the least.


    I study under Benny the Jet Urquidez Who happens to have been
undefeated
in over seven years of proffesional fighting. And the last I heard he
was'nt
to concerned about Tai fighters or anyone else. Probably because he beat
the Tai champions in every bout they were in together.


   The bottom line is that there is no perfect MA all you can do is be
the best
at your particular style. 



    Ken Ferguson
From: lchurch2@bluemoon.use.com (Leonard Church)
Subject: Bruce Tegner
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 03:34:38 EST

I ran across this name when I was doing some research on an article I am 
writing and found some interesting things...The FIRST MA'er to appear on 
National Television in the United States was Bruce Tegner and Ed Parker. 
Bruce T. appeared on "Ozzie & Harriet" and "The Detectives" and numerous 
other shows as early as 1950.  Bruce was also a fight choreographer for 
film and television during the 50's and 60's.  Bruce T. was also the first 
in the US to produce a national magazine related to the Martial Arts and 
featured personalities and technique interviews the mag was called JUDO 
and was produced in 1952.  Bruce T. was also the auther of several 
"how-to-books" on the martial arts including: Karate, Chinese Boxing, 
Savate, Fencing, and Collegiate <spell checker doesn't work??> Wrestling.  
When I first ran across some of these books back in the 70's I thought 
they were "rip-off"'s produced by a "nobody"  apparently I didn't realize 
the the works I were looking at may have been dated but should have been 
picked up for historical value.
/H
/p

-------------------------------------------------------------
Growing trees in a concrete Jungle | lchurch2@bluemoon.rn.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: kevin@pages.com (Kevin Sven Berg)
Subject: Re: bear hug variation
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:02:49 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.201402.2852@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com  
(Mr. X) writes:
> 	In fact, they should slip right out of his grip.  Sounds crazy, but
> 	it works when you relax enough.  Water is hard to fight against!

In article <4421@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
> 	If you relax as totally as you suggest, wouldn't the guy just
> switch to a chicken wing (a wrestling move like a hammerlock but with
> the arm bent at a much more acute angle) or some other joint attack?

As a principle of hollowing, bending and yeilding, "Water" can be
very difficult to fight against. In general it can be especially effective 
against locks.

Still, I'd have to try the bag-o-water vs. bear hug out for effectiveness ...

regards,

Kevin

-- 
Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
San Diego, CA.               `    `    `    `    `    `    `    `
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Stupid Religious Views
Date: 22 Dec 92 23:08:34 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec22.195153.2593@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
> Aikido and many kenjutsu systems have significant Shinto components. 

	What are the Shinto components of aikido?

	Anyway, don't y'all know that there's only _one_ true god and
*that's* Ghu, the Great ?  Really...
								W.rat
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Stupid Religious Views
Date: 23 Dec 92 19:35:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1ha4t1INNl9i@male.EBay.Sun.COM> scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>1.) How about a picture of O'Sensei at the Shomen.

	We don't have one...
>
>2.) Are the Aikidokas taught all things possess Ki? Even Rocks? 
>    Then the Shinto belief that Kami are ever pervasive is transmitted.

	Kami are singular spirits, but ki is a generalized life force.
In fact, wouldn't a kami have ki ???  Ki seems much more of a zen
concept to me.

	I once heard it explained this way:  In Shinto, everything has 
its own soul, but in Buddhism everything shares a part of the same soul.
From: actize@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: More Questions
Date: 27 Dec 1992 09:01:23 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Hello netters.  What's the counter to this move ?   Attacker & Defender face 
each other as boxer usually do.  Attacker kicks defender in midsection with 
rear foot.  Defender drops lead hand to down to deflect kick.  Attacker steps 
in and punches the defender, who dropped his guard deflecting the kick . ???  
Second Question:  What's a good way to improve hand speed the easy way
(i.e. not "after being punched 100 times you'll be able to block it") ?  
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: srs@eos.ncsu.edu (SCOTT R STONEFIELD)
Subject: Re: nelsons
Originator: srs@koopa.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: srs@eos.ncsu.edu
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 22:44:21 GMT


Bill,
	Well thank you for the appology.  

BTW we can see if you can get out of my full nelson.

-Scott
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Subject: Re: more on car jacking
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 13:44:56 GMT

In article <724876413.AA06207@urchin.fidonet.org>
  Stovall@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Stovall) writes:
>___
> X SLMR 2.1a X My karate kid can whip your honor roll student...

Yup.  And the honor roll student can hire or fire your karate kid in a
decade or so.  Far better to be both.

-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |  USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |      DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        | 
Support the League for Programming Freedom   (info from lpf@uunet.uu.net)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl)
Subject: Re: body memory
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 09:51:36 GMT
Organization: SIEMENS Austria Corp., A-1100 Wien, Gudrunstr. 11
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5


Thank everybody for replying, mail or newsgroup, it helps me to continue.

When learning Taiji beginners often state: I cannot remember, meaning
they cannot remember in their (visual) mind, and are not aware of the
body sense learning ability.
So that was one part of the question, how to explain to the student, if he
asks how he remembers.
Is it a general rule that in the beginning a form is easier learned by
body sense than by visual metaphor or aural instructions, despite of what
type the student pefers to learn with generally: seeing, hearing, body/
feeling.
In my experience I would say yes in most cases.
With children I found they could imitate complex movements after weeks
without having them ever done, and although maybe not exact replications
they seem to have caught the "energy flow".

With my own training visualisation on the long run seems very effective.
My home is aprrox. half an hour from my training  place and what annoyed
me in the beginning has turned out wonderful. On the way home I visualize
the trained form and I remember the body sense experiences as well as
the teachers instructions very clearly. 
ALso from time to time I try to do the forms in mind very fast and
this shows me very clearly, where I have difficulty or still miss something.
Visualizing in that case for me is always a mixture of seeing and still
feeling the whole body. 

Refering to another thread the question comes to my mind, why
can a body sense memory not be tranfered to the visual memory, is
this our present state, or because of our usage of brain, or brain
itself ? Interesting but probably too difficult a question ?

Visualization (or even not to) seems also a connection to concentration/
meditation.

Last remark:
In a book called Das Training der Sieger (The training of the winners),
published here in Vienna it is said that many , all ? super athletes
train visually to perfect their performance, always of course together
with actual training and not exclusively. 
Does this apply to martial arts too and what are your experiences and opinions ?

Ernst Krudl, Vienna, Austria (ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: poor technique
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: None worth mentioning.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 05:34:05 GMT

In article <4451@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <JON.92Dec29120826@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
>>This discussion arose when you said that the participants in karate
>>tournaments "pretend" to hit.  You implied that techniques thrown in
>>karate tournaments are somehow less than real.  That runs contrary to
>
>	I'm really not saying what I mean very well.  Bear with me while 
>I try again.
>
>	A tournament _must_ be less than realistic, or it would be 
>actual combat and not a tournament at all.  There are different approaches
>to make this unreality happen.  In judo we allow only a subset of possible
>techniques and we pad the ground and practice falling so that we can do
>that safe subset of techniques at full speed without injuring each other.
>Where I'm confused about karate tournaments is that since there _is_ no
>safe subset of techniques - what's a painless way to strike someone? - how
>can you use karate techniques in this situation without "watering them down",
>that is, NOT executing them at full power and speed?  
>
>	Your answer seems to be that my mistake is to believe them when they
>say "no contact", and that irregardless of the rules they really do hit each
>other with full power blows...

Karate tournaments use rules, just as judo tournies do. Certain
techniques are disallowed (i.e. strikes to the groin or throat etc).
And peopel are expected to have a certain amount of control. Assuming
the person throwing the punch/kick/whatever has that control, it is
possible to reverse the blow at the point of contact. Contact is made,
felt, and (hopefully) seen by the judges. HARD contact is not suposed
to happen. Certainly it does, but rarely full force.
I wouldn't call the strikes "painless", but I doubt many judo
practitioners will claim that getting tossed around, even on your
mats, is completely painless.

The above is my own experience. Perhaps you know someplace where
karate tournies do not use saftey rules?

--
                  Mark Cochran          merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu
These are the views of my employer. They also represent the views of
your employer, your government, the Church of your choice, and the
Ghost of Elvis. So there.
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Help on resuming training
Date: 29 Dec 1992 18:50:58 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: galaxy.think.com


In article <1992Dec23.145320.45877@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, wellison@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
|> The problem is, I have forgot most of the forms and
|> am so out of shape, I'm afraid I would die in the first class ! Does anyone
|> have suggestions as to how to get back into shape so I at least resemble a
|> brown belt (and not a floundering white belt ;-) ?
|> 
|> Thanks....
|> 
|> -=-=- Wes =-=-

As someone who went through this twice, my conclusion is that
it is best to just bite the bullet and show up.  While it is
true that you are awkward at first, if you have the self-discipline
to practice at home, you will pick things up rather quickly.

Any good instructor will pick up on the fact that you have more
knowledge/experience than might otherwise be thought.  I have always
mentioned this to my instructors - stressing that I wish to start
with the basic class, while taking additional classes at an advanced
level.  The important thing is to not be too haughty about taking
basic classes and being "misread".  I have found that after a long
hiatus in training I was able to make more progress by just not
being afraid to be mistaken for a beginner and doing what I felt
comfortable with at the time.  After a long hiatus, I was just not up
to doing what I had been doing previously -  I had put on weight
and my balance was off.  In effect, the basic stages helped me
get in touch with myself more quickly than if I had practiced
on my own and then rejoined.

Good luck and go for it!

-- 
Shai Guday		| 
OS Software Engineer	| 
Thinking Machines Corp. |
From: roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kenpo
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:42:44 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

In article <12234@cayman.COM> mccoy@cayman.com (Michael McCoy) writes:
>In <BzDDE4.B1K@world.std.com>, eclipse@world.std.com (Mark Urbin) writes:
>>Kempo (or kenpo, it's an accent thing.  How you pronouce
>>depends on what part of Japan you are from) is the
 
>blocks and more training in kicking. The instructor emphasized we were 
>studying keNpo, not keMpo -- white belts were required to spell it as part 
>of the first test. So.... are the two styles variations on a theme, or are 
>they really different styles? (Or is kenpo/kempo so generic that it covers 
>almost any style?)
  
     Am I the only one in rec.martial-retorts who finds the 
     kenpo v. kempo a bit silly?

     If you right the n and the m in phoenetic (kana) Japanese
     is is done with the same character.  I really believe 
     that someone started calling it keNpo because his teacher
     wrote is that way in English.  And someone else had the 
     luck of the draw and ended up with keMpo.  It is just 
     like the use of Mr. Okawa and Mr. Ohkawa they are just two
     different ways of writing the same thing in a foreign 
     language.
-- 
Robert Stroud       Robert_Stroud@simulacrum.wv.tek.com
Obukan Kendo Club   Portland Oregon USA
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: poor technique
Date: 31 Dec 92 14:19:00 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

In article <1992Dec30.153837.25923@cs.brown.edu> tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus) writes:
>>(1) All attacks are focused short of where they would be focused in an
>>actual fight.  That is, the attack goes to full extension, but that
>>point at which the attack finishes is within an inch OUTSIDE the
>>opponent's body, rather than an inch or more INSIDE, as they would be
>>in an actual fight.  
>
>    This is perhaps the worst way to do this!  
 
If you end a tightly focussed blow in mid air, the impedance mismatch means 
that the force of the blow is reflected back up your arm and can do major
damage to your tendons/joints/muscles. Very tightly focussed blows cannot
be practiced in play, since you have a choice of either harming yourself 
or your partner.

What is the solution to this problem?
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: Kevin_Deane@mindlink.bc.ca (Kevin Deane)
Subject: Re: Agreed: rec.martial-arts hierarchy
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:21:31 GMT

I think we should keep martial arts in a single message group.  It takes no
time what so ever to go through the messages.  Often the header states the
topic which makes this task even easier.  It is pretty lazy not to be able to
do so.  One problem of dividing the group is that not everyone might get
certain areas of it possible due to the system they are using.  The system
might only get two parts or whatever.  At least with this group they can get
all the MA discussion they want from one area...oh well...just my 100000
cents worth..

--
====================================================================
|Kevin A. Deane    (Kevin_Deane@Mindlink.bc.ca)|                   |
|Simon Fraser University                       | "We will destroy  |
|Treasurer                                     |  the opposition"  |
|Fraser Valley Astronomers Society             |                   |
|----------------------------------------------|
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Re: bear hug variation
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:55:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.172851.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> ttrimble@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.201402.2852@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>> In article <1992Dec19.175511.6289@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>
>> 	Uh... exactly HOW is your head supposed to wind up in the floor
>> 	when he has grabbed you whilst you were upright?                        

>  i don't want to presuppose a lack of experience on your part Andy, but as a
>wrestler i would have to say that attacker is not SOL if he knows what he's 
>doing.  

	He is if the defender knows what HE'S doing :)

>a) to sweep your legs w/ one of his and drop
>both of you (him on top) to the side he swept.  this would not be countered
>easily by a defender who is limp "like jello."  (in my experience, this 
>would not be countered easily by a defender who's doing everything right and 
>who has 8+ years of practice getting out of this...) 

	Going limp will make his task vastly more difficult to carry out.
	Can't quite explain it verbally.  You have to experience it to
	see that it works.  In the case where your attacker is essentially
	doing "sutemi" (sacrificing himself to get you) I agree it is best that
	you do not allow things to get to this point.  Many such attacks RELY
	on the fact that the "victim" will resist physically.  The body, when
	tensed up, is  remarkably easy to manipulate.  This is not so when it
	goes soft.  The stronger Mr. wrestler feels, the weaker he is both
	tactically and strategically.  The question becomes one of whether or
	not the defender knows how to take advantage of this.

>b) to go into a back arch and drop you over his shoulder onto the back of your
>head.  (he would pivot himself to face down just as your head hit the ground) 
>again, being jello-like would not help a whole hell of a lot.           

	If he has grabbed me that low, I can free my hands almost instantly.
	If he has not but tries to adjust the relative positions such that
	my head is sticking up over his, I am given a perfect opportunity
	to escape.  If my hands are freed, I will remove his eyes from from
	their sockets in short order.  Problem solved; now for his buddies :)

	-Andy V.