HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:49:05 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  I had written:

> 1) The rules exclude much of period armory.  To that extent, the
> College is actively hindering the medieval recreations of the Society. 
>> I proposed changing the rules to allow any period heraldic style.

Torric replied:

> This would seam to be a great idea at frist glance, but as was stated
> earlyer, you can find lot's of examples of truly awful heraldry in
> period. If we were to allow ALL of this to pass we would not only be
> registering things that are "not in the spirit of good heraldry", but we
> would stand the chance of grossly amplifing all of the "worst" aspects of
> period heraldry (instead of trying to only recreate the best parts of the
> middle ages).

What is "good heraldry"?  How can a piece of period armory not be "good
heraldry" in an organization devoted to re-creating period culture?
Consider the same statements about any other art: "You shouldn't make garb
based on that period model; it isn't good garb."  "You shouldn't make
pottery using that motif; it isn't good period pottery."  If anyone said
something like that to an artisan in the SCA, he'd be laughed out of the
hall or, better yet, simply ignored.  "Good heraldry" is whatever was done
in period.  If our beliefs about what constitutes "good heraldry" don't
include something found in period heraldry, thent we have more to learn
about our subject.  If our theory does not cover the evidence, then the
theory is wrong, not the evidence.

Of course, period heralds had opinions about what was good and bad
heraldry.  But of course those opinions varied from time to time, from
place to place, and from herald to herald.  Just because a mid-16th century
English herald wrote that color-on-color is bad heraldry doesn't mean that
every herald, across Europe and 400 years of armorial history held that
opinion.  More important, we heralds in the SCA are not medieval heralds,
and our perceptions of good and bad design are completely different from
those of a medieval herald.  It is impossible to reproduce medieval
esthetics.  

A herald in the SCA is both an officer and an artisan.  Individually, we
heralds as artisans are free to decide which parts of medieval heraldry we
wish to re-create, and we are free to study, teach, and use those parts and
to ignore the others.  Like any other artisan, a herald can choose his
subject.  He can also develop opinions on what parts of the period art are
most useful to the SCA.  However, I find it abhorrent that we heralds as
officers of the corporation should try to impose our personal preferences
on the rest of the Society through corporate policy.  It is simply wrong
for the College of Arms to restrict the range of re-creation available to
the populace.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: james@wrs.com (James Moore)
Subject: Re: Heraldic references...
Reply-To: james@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:23:13 GMT

parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:

>I realise you mean well, but interlibrary loan, or even libraries
>for that matter, are quite useless to the vast majority of
>people.
>Papworth, for example, is not in the collection (to my knowledge,
>and I looked about for it once) of any public library in Alberta.

So?  Get it from a library outside of Alberta.  It's been a few years since
I've needed to use the system (I'm fortunate enough to live within walking
distance of UC Berkeley's library), but there was never any restriction
on geographical location for fetching books.  Obviously, they wanted to
find the closest one, but if the volume in question wasn't available 
locally, going out the area wasn't a problem.

>Inter library loan is often "strongly discouraged" by librarians,
>who have limited budgets for such things, and don't want to see
>it wasted on something "frivolous".

While I can see that this might be an issue for small, local, public
libraries, I find it impossible to believe that any university library
worthy of the name would do this.  Even public libraries should get
what you need once you convince them that you're serious.

>Nor do I blame them.

I do.  What do you pay taxes and/or tuition for?

-- 
James Moore                            /|\                        james@wrs.com
Wind River Systems                     \|/                  Alameda, California
	 "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half
			  didn't mean anything at all"
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Too Light Blows (was Re: Face-thrust force/Picts)
Date: 16 Dec 92 10:40:42
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
Distribution: world, na, usa, local
	<92Dec14.173419.27972@acs.ucalgary.ca> <62863@mimsy.umd.edu>
	<1992Dec16.090535.13085@bsu-ucs>
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: 00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu's message of 16 Dec 92 14:05:35 GMT


00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Matthew J. Stum) writes:
] To me, SCA combat is truly _tournament_ combat... not _war_ combat.

To me, SCA tourneys are just one more way to practice for war.
War fighting is a lot more fun : out there with your unit,
immersed in the swirl and crush of armoured combat.

Maybe this is at the root of some of the misunderstandings
about armour I've been a party too : I armour for war,
not for tourneys. And I armour to survive my part in war :
carrying a shield as part of the wall, protecting the
polearms and archers so that they can kill people. The
blows I usually throw are aimed at unhooking polearms
from my shield. 

I like tourneys (and I'd never enter one without trying to win it
if I could do so chivalrously, tho I have yet to). But look how 
many more people turn out for wars than tourneys. I think most
hard-suit participants are more war- than tourney-oriented.

Between war and tourneys are tavern-tourneys : I sprained my
knee just in time to miss our latest one (I'd already made
my SCA-legal mug even, complete with thrusting tips at each end)
but I did watch it, and it seemed a blast !

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic references...
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:26:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec15.022611.16547
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

In article <92Dec14.190527.28041@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
>In article <724041738.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:
>>   "Library"   "Inter-library Loan".  Reduces the price quite a bit, 
>
>I realise you mean well, but interlibrary loan, or even libraries
>for that matter, are quite useless to the vast majority of
>people.
>
>Papworth, for example, is not in the collection (to my knowledge,
>and I looked about for it once) of any public library in Alberta.
>
>Inter library loan is often "strongly discouraged" by librarians,
>who have limited budgets for such things, and don't want to see
>it wasted on something "frivolous".

  In addition (as I found out), Papworth is often reserved for internal
  library use only and will not be sent through ILL.  (Luckily, I found a
  copy locally)
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 - If the 2nd doesn't cover semiautos, the 1st cannot cover wordprocessors... -
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:29:12 -0500 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Aluminum Armor & New Game

Good gentles,

I've been entertained by the discussions of aluminum in period
(or in the Napoleonic Age, for that matter).  There's a little
"thought game" I like to play at post-revels where the high
value of aluminum in times past is worth remembering.

The setup for the game is this:

  You're doing whatever it is you do on the average week night
  when a 10-foot diameter "time bubble" pops into your living
  room and the driver says "Hurry, the Sun's going nova in
  15 minutes, you've got 10 of those minutes to gather up
  everything you can carry and think of a time and location
  at least 400 years back where you'd like me to drop you..."

  It's an interesting psychological and intellectual exercise
  to see WHERE and WHEN people want to be dropped off (presumably
  to live out the rest of their lives) and also WHAT they decide
  to take with them.

  MY favorite item of "transportable wealth" is the roll of
  aluminum foil from the kitchen drawer. 

  All the spices on my spice rack would go, too...

  And the late 15th century -- England, to start -- would be
  where *I'd* like to be dropped.


How about some of the rest of you on the Rialto?
WHERE?  WHEN?  and WHAT?

Take care, good gentles, and happy holidays -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..." 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 06:23:59 GMT

Arval did write:

>What is "good heraldry"?  How can a piece of period armory not be "good
>heraldry" in an organization devoted to re-creating period culture?
>Consider the same statements about any other art: "You shouldn't make garb
>based on that period model; it isn't good garb."  "You shouldn't make
>pottery using that motif; it isn't good period pottery."  If anyone said
>something like that to an artisan in the SCA, he'd be laughed out of the
>hall or, better yet, simply ignored.  

Well, I think we can all agree that some things are bad pottery, even if
they were done in period --- period potters must have produced their share
of cracked pots.  On the other hand, in that case we can define bad as "not
useful".

What this says to me is that the Society ought to make an effort to find
out / decide what we consider "useful" in terms of heraldry.  Which is one
of the things Arval has been saying all along....

			---Simon
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Through a looking glass, darkly
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:39:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec18.013951.14396
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

In article <1992Dec17.230524.13586@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>As I recall, the specification is that the SCA includes those areas
>that were in contact with Europe during our period.  That covers a lot
>of territory--especailly if one uses a farily loose version of 'in
>contact.'  Even under restrictive definitions it includes Islamic
>Spain and North Africa, everything to the Urals and the Near East
>(even if only via the Crusades).  More generally, there are the
>incursions by the Mongols into Europe (as recently emntioned on
>another thread) and their treaties with and representatives at the
>courts of various countries in central to western Europe.
>
>Farther east south and west, you ahve to look to the definition you
>wish to use.  There was extensive contact (in at least one direction)
>in the Caribbean and Central America, significant contact down the
>Atlantic coast of Africa, and (eventually--but still before 1600) the
>Magellan expedition that went all the way around the world.  
> [more deleted]

  YAY!  I always wanted to start a Mayan household under the auspices of the 
  SCA...

  Perhaps the 'definition' should be changed from reading "in contact with"
  to "interacting with."  It'd make a Hell of a lot more sense.

  -Iain "He used.... sarcasm." Odlin
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 ------------ When you're not looking, this sentence is in Gaelic. ------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Non-European Personas
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 17:40:54 GMT


"If I'd became King of Calontir, I would have decreed that during my
rule, the Kingdom would have been referred to as "the Sultanate of
Calontir," since by the Arabian social ranks (as I understand them,
and that's not saying much), I would have been a Sultan, wouldn't I?"
(Axel, the Bandit)

1. Rakkurai of Kamakura ruled the East Kingdom using the title
"Shogun."

2. I think "Sultan" originates as a Turkish title, not an Arabic one.
Islamic society, after the initial conquests, is a mix of several
different cultures, of which Arabic, Persian, and Turkish are among
the most important. I do not know what a good Arabic term for "King"
would be. "Malek," I believe, literally means "King" (I donUt speak
Arabic, unfortunately), but I think it is usually used as one of the
terms for God. "Caliph" is (roughly) "Pope/Emperor." "Emir" seems to
be used for everything from a fairly low level commander up to some
ruling princes. "Atabeg" is another Turkic title that ended up being
used  by some ruling princes.

Now "Seneschal," on the other hand, obviously translates as "Vizier."

Do those with more knowledge of the language have other suggestions?

David/Cariadoc (who called himself "King," it being prudent not to
try to push the unenlightened too rapidly towards the light when
there are more of them than of you).
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bobby@nmt.edu (Bobby Kehrman)
Subject: Re: Face-thrust force
Organization: New Mexico Tech
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 20:12:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec8.092138.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> jvincent@eagle.wesleyan.edu (The Ulair) writes:
>I have been wondering how strong the correlation is between normal thrusting
>force and face-thrusting force, particularly in an area trying it for the 
>first time. Does anyone have any information on this?
>(ie. do both start at the same level, or is the face thrust significantly
>lighter even at this initial stage?)

Since we all are assumed to wearing an opened face helm with nasal, there
doesn't need to be any significant force behind a face thrust, as we dont have 
to puncture armor.  This must be stressed, as thrusting hard at someone can 
seriously hurt them - neck injuries (whiplash). All you need to do us get the 
thrusting tip on the face plate for it to be a valid shot.

The reasoning behind this is that you are concentrating the force of your
shot to a very small surface area.  The face plate is by far the weakest part
of the helm, and a hard shot can do realy unpleasant things to the face behind
it.  

Please stress this, as I have seen several serious injuries occur due to 
overzealous face trusting , including a bent face plate that caused a very
ugly laceration above the ear due to the victims sports glasses.  This 
becomes extremely citical also if you are using a fiberglass pole arm
versus a rattan, as the fiberglass is much more efficient at transmitting
force straight down it length, where as the rattan tend to bow outward on the
harder shots.

Body shots can have a subtaintial amout of force behind them, as their is
armor to dissapate the force of the blow over a wider area.  But they don't
need to be heavy shots.  Besides, if you though a hard thrust and miss, you
recovery time to get the point back is alot longer, and you usually throw
yourself off balance.  


						Ld. Yuri Bolshakov
						College of St. Golias
						Outlands




-- 
" Love bears all things, believes all things, |    bobby@jupiter.nmt.edu
       hopes all things, endures all things.  | New Mexico Tech, Socorro NM
       Love never fails..."  I Cor. 13:7-8    | The 68th Plane of the Abyss
###############################################################################
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:15:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec15.021527.16140
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)


Arval makes many good observations (all deleted for brevity), but then includes
a note saying that armorial uniqueness wasn't enforced in period (with caveats,
of course, but I think my following question doesn't run into any of them).

  What then was the Scropes trial in the late fourteenth (early fifteenth?
  My books aren't with me right now...) about?

  -Iain, curious
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 -------- ...and if He ever suffered / it was me who did His crying... --------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic Questions.....  Forwarded  Reply
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 10:40:40 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Simon writes:
> Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP> writeth:
> 
>>> Master Arval did an extraordinary job of being helpful during his term as
>>> Brigantia (EK principal herald), and he continues to do so as a consulting
>>> herald.  It absolutely fails to surprise me to see him mentioned as someone
>>> who improves the reputation of heralds.  Vivat!
> 
>>Which is why the position he's taking in this discussion surprises me.
>>Unless, perhaps, he's acting as a devil's advocate...
> 
> I think you mistake his position.  Arval has never said that the College of
> Arms shouldn't help people design good armory, *if they want the help*.

What surprised me was that he appeared to be saying that:

        o  the CoA shouldn't require devices to be non-conflicting

        o  an individual should be able to have whatever device he wants,
           even if it's something that wouldn't have appeared in period

(Of course, I may have misread Master Arval's intent, which if I have, I
hope he'll correct me.)

The first makes no sense whatsoever, as the entire purpose of armory is
to identify individuals (whether it be on a battlefield, or as a mark of 
property, or whatever).

The second, I suppose, is a matter of taste.  An example:  a friend of
mine wanted a particular device, regardless of the fact that there was
absolutely nothing period about it.  Naturally, it bounced, so -- since
no-one else can register it either -- he now flies his jarringly modern
banner at events.  Okay, it's a nice design, but it's not mediaeval, nor
can it ever be mistaken for such by anyone with even a passing knowledge
of heraldry or period aesthetics.  IMHO, it DETRACTS from the atmosphere
the SCA is trying to create, rather than adding to it.

My friend, unfortunately, is one of those people who wants to play a
game, but not abide by its rules unless they suit him.


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
              That man that hath a tongue, I say, is no man
              If with his tongue he cannot win a woman.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jdoucette@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca (Jingle bells, mortar shells, VC in the grass...)
Subject: Note of Thanks
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Holland College - Charlottetown PEI
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:03:00 GMT

	To all those that responded to my request for the head office 
address and gave me advice I hadn't asked for (the best kind), thank you 
muchly.  The response was large, fast, and had what I needed.

John Doucette
jdoucette@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Children in justinian's
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:53:06

 I would prefer to be judged by my actions, not by the accident of
 my chronological age.

 Serena
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dgreen@thor (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP! name searching.
Date: 17 Dec 1992 22:21:57 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.berkeley.edu

Hello from Bjalfi!

Quoth Simon:
>>>   Norse sagas: the only literature requiring a geneological flowchart
>>>for comprehension...
>>>Ulfie
>>SHEEESH! No kidding.  Never seen a more user-friendly source of name-
>>documentation, though.
>I dunno --- we were sort of partial to the Decameron when I was at
>Duncharloch.... 
>p.s. Chaucer's nice, too....

True, true.  It's basically the same idea though.  "Gee, that's a
nice name, and if I combine it with this byname over here, I get a
consistent and easily-documented persona name."  Heralds LOVE this,
because it means we don't have to run around in circles trying to
justify something somebody made up.  If anyone reading this list is
trying to come up with a persona name, PLEASE dig up a copy of the
Decameron, the Canterbury Tales, Egil's Saga, the Tales of the Thousand
Nights and a Night, the Song of Roland, or whatever medieval literature
appeals to you, and read it through paying attention to names you like.
You can come up with truly lovely stuff that way, which is always a
Good Thing.

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca