HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Arab factor in elections
Date: 22 Jul 92 09:47:02 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <92203.152722CCAIIRE@TECHNION.BITNET> CCAIIRE@TECHNION.BITNET (Irina Abramovici) writes:
>>>>BUT you can't have your cake and eat it too!
>>>
>>>You can't even have your cake.  If democracy is for Jews only, soon it
>>>will only be for some Jews, and eventually just for one.

>
>>1. Conclusion : Warren fights for democracy for every one .
>>2.  Conclusion : Warren fights for democracy for  KACH  and KOACH.
>>3.   Conclusion  : Warren fights for the right of those two Rabbi
>                    Kahana's parties to  run to the Knesset.
>
>>BUT
>
>>   Warren SAID NO WORD for the democratic rights of those  2 parties .
>>
>>So there is a catch here.
>
>While I'm not Mr Burstein, I'll try answer your riddle: the clue is
>that probably Mr Burstein fights for democracy for everyone, WITHIN the
>frame of the law. Kach and Koach don't qualify. This is what the Central
>Commitee for the Elections decided, and was supported by the Bagatz when
>an appeal was filed. Cheers. Some logic!
>

That law is exactly the anti democratic law Warren fights against.
 That law exclude the democratic right of a party to run to the
Knesset  because one rejects its ideology.
Another judgments team may approve Kahana-parties and dis approved
Daraushe and Miary parties  using that same l;aw.
Check  again at Warren's logic:

" If democracy is for Jews only, soon it will only be for some Jews,
     and eventually just for one"

Using the same logic one may say :

" If democracy is for non-Kahana only, soon it will only be for
    leftists  and eventually just for one"

 Cheers. Some logic!        Gideon    Ehrlich     ERETZ  YISRAEL
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: VINER%BGUVM.bitnet@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL (Dov Winer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: New List: Israel-Mideast
Date: 29 Jul 1992 07:31:40 -0500
Organization: Ben-Gurion University, Beer-Sheva, Israel
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


Subject: New "Israel-Mideast" list from the makers of Israel Line
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 16:46:44 PDT

I'm forwarding this message on the off chance that some people who
don't currently get Israel Line would be interested in this new
list.

Sam
------- Forwarded Message
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 19:26:45 -0400
From: saar@nysernet.ORG (Gideon Saar)
To: Multiple recipients of list <israeline@nysernet.ORG>
Subject: New List -- Israel-Mideast

Dear Israel Line recipient,

If you need more information than you can find in Israel Line, hook
up to Israel-Mideast! Israel-Mideast is a new daily list which
contains editorials and more articles from Israeli newspapers, Arab
media clips and information papers for those who need more facts
and in-depth background materials. Israel-Mideast is another
service of the Consulate General of Israel in New York. Arrange to
become part of this new list today!

To subscribe, send Email to:
listserv@israel.nysernet.org

The message should contain one and only line:
subscribe israel-mideast "your_full_name"   (NOT address)

To be taken off the list, send Email to the same address with the
following line:
unsubscribe israel-mideast

The same rules of subscription and deletion apply to the israeline
list as well. To end your subscription or halt it temporarily, send
Email to:
listserv@israel.nysernet.org

The message should contain one and only line:
unsubscribe israeline

You can always resubscribe later on by sending a message to the
same address with the line:
subscribe israeline "your_full_name"   (NOT address)

For those of you who need to change their addresses, just send a
message from the old account unsubscribing the service, and
resubscribe from your new address.

I hope you'll continue to enjoy Israel Line, and our new israel-
mideast list.

Yours,

Gideon Sa'ar

P.S. Feel free to redistribute this message to as many lists
or bulletin boards as possible.

------- End of Forwarded Message
***********************************************************************
                             * * * * * * *
***********************************************************************

Dov Winer
Ben Gurion University
Internet : viner at bguvm.bgu.ac.il
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:31:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.021338.26993@wixer.cactus.org>
lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax) writes:

>In article <5674@nosc.NOSC.MIL> mgross@halibut.nosc.mil (Michelle K.
>Gross) writes:

>>Last week's Torah portion, Pinchas, which was read at synagogues all
>>over the world seems to support the death penalty for the described
>>circumstance.

>And what about "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?  Last time I checked, _that_ came from
>the Bible, too.  And while supporters of the death penalty can play nifty
>semantic games which somehow differentiate between the meaning of "kill" and
>"execute", both actions are the taking of human life.

I'm not sure what Michael is doing here.  He asks about the Jewish view
of the death penalty but rejects any examples as "nifty semantic
games." Is he really interested in knowing?

Take a look at the word used in the commandment.  Look for the same word,
in Hebrew, throughout the Bible.  You will see the context is _always_
murder, not killing.  Yes, there is a prohibition against murder, but
there are reasons for killing.  Rejecting the distinction is to reject the
difference between murder and self defense and, among other things, is a
rejection of Judaism's basis in law.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: looking for an apt in J'lem
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:17:58 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Jul24.165949.5732@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.155128.11311@nynexst.com>, schwartz@nynexst.com
>(Steven Schwartz) writes:
>|> In article <1992Jul24.131308.6019@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>,
>|>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>|> > In article <22013@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>|> >
>|> > >Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied territories.
>|> > >--
>|> > >Yigal Arens       USC/ISI
       ^^^^^^^^^^        ^^^

>|> > Isn't USC in US-occupied Mexican territory?        Sam Saal
>|>
>|> No, Sam, it's in the European-occupied Native American territories.
>|>
>|> Steven H. Schwartz          Expert Systems Laboratory

>       No, both of you are wrong.  It is Human-occupied Buffalo territories.

Do Sam, Steven and Elya have any proof that
 Yigal is NOT a Mexican, a Native American or a Buffalo ?

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 19:17:06 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.071839.29730@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
|> Aside from the question of those parents who want their kids to get "a
|> little bit" of Jewish education, there's the question of what kind of
|> Jewish education they want their kids to get. If there were a Reform
|> yeshiva in the vicinity, I would probably send my kids there full-time;
|> and my parents did send me to our synagogue's day school when I was
|> young, on the same principle. But I would teach my children myself
|> rather than send them to an Orthodox *anything*; I have about the same
|> degree of appreciation for and agreement with Orthodox religious the-
|> ory as I do for Christianity, and I wouldn't let my kids grow up being
|> trained by either one.

Ms. Rivkis, despite the inflammatory nature of this paragraph, I'd like to ask
a flame-free question:

Could you please specify *which* tenets of Orthodox religious belief are
so violently offensive to you?  Please stick to Orthodox *theory* (your own
word) as opposed to imperfect reality.  I.e, I don't want to hear "They only
care about Kosher but they don't care about being nice to people", since that
is the practice of those who misuse, and do not fully follow, Orthodoxy.

I am truly interested in your response.  I'm sure many others are as well, so
please post rather than email.  Thank you.
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R Debate
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:38:43 GMT
	<1992Jul28.210216.3814@wam.umd.edu>
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA

On Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:02:16 GMT, aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) said:
> I understand your position, however, I do not understand why the laws
> derived from the Torah, and any religious law by the way, should follow any
> logic.   

Not true. Whether the laws are logical is a different question, but if you are
given the premise (unprovable) that what is written in the Torah is the word
of G-d, then the laws in the Talmud should logically follow from the Torah.
Similarily, the fences etc. erected since talmudic times should logically
follow from the talmud.

If you don't hold with the premise, but hold with divine inspiration, then the
same logical conclusions can be drawn, but they don't have the same force.

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
   "You can't be a rationalist in an irrational world. It isn't rational!"
	       Dr. Rance, in Joe Orton's "What the Butler Saw"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Just Being Silly
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:31:32 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.182417.7150@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>  Al shlosha d'varim ha'olam omed:
>>Yaakov - Emes - truth - he merited that all his children got the Torah
>  Al hatorah
>>Yitzchak - Gevurah - strength - He had Yaakov but also Eisav
>  Al ha'avodah
>>Avraham - Chesed - kindness - He had Yitzchak but also Yishmael
>  Veh al chassidut ha g'malim.
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I realize that you must be a misnaged but which branch of chassidus
do the gmalim belong to and what about the driver?

Hillel Markowitz        H_Markowitz@att.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Summary: Anti-Orthodox does not mean atheist
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:42:00 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <LERNER.92Jul26182033@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:


>>>>	As far as I'm concerned, the Torah was written by many different
>>>>	people giving many different accounts of history.  If they
>>>>	actually saw us taking it leterally I think they'd be laughing
>>>>	at us.  But this is my opinion, I will not say that it is the
>>>>	only reasoning.  I just can't see how anyone can say the Torah
>>>>	is an accurate document.  There are parts where clearly Moses
>>>>	could not have gone up Mount Sinai and come back down and 
>>>>	gone back up, and gone back up (wait, how'd he get back up if

>	Reader beware: The above unsupported contention is the product of
>	misunderstanding; while the idea of  the  Torah as an  historical
>	document (G-d  forbid!)  is not new, the recent emphasis of  this
>	is simply  an attemtp To even suggest  the Torah is (G-d  forbid)
>	man-made makes a  mockery of any religous sensiblity This is  not
>	soc.culture.atheism,  but  if you claim that the  Torah  is  (G-d
>	forbid) man-made then you simply made up your interpretation.

Even the Word of God must be written in the language of man.  Few, if any,
on this group take the Torah to be purely an invention of man.  But man
is not so much a rational being as a rationalizing being, and, as one of
the philosophers wrote,

	God created man in his image.  And man, being the gentleman,
	returned the favor.

I would even say that it would be difficult for man to do otherwise.
Now even primitive man could have envisaged a universe which took 
billions of years to develop.  The Hindu cosmology even has a fairly
reasonable approximation to the age of our univers. 

But it seems that God did not give a clear enough inspiration on even the
order of biological development; the Torah account is too far in disagreement
with our direct observations of the record of the earth to be acceptable as
a summary.  Nor is the distribution of fauna consistent with any world-wide
flood at any time when any of genus homo was around.

Thus it is necessary for us humans to use our mental capacities and the
continuing inspiration from God to separate His words from those of mortals
attempting to convey His ideas.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 16:27:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.204110.17057@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
|> I can think of several things the Orthodox do that Reform thinks is
|> wrong:  ....
|> ..... Eating meat from animals that, while
|> they may have been slaughtered according to the requirements of kashruth,
|> were not treated in a humane fashion when they were alive, is another
|> example.

Are you implying that Reform mandates (or at least urges) vegetarianism?
Or that they have a form of Hachgacha that ensures that all animals eaten
by Reform Jews were treated humanely throughout their lives?  Or do you
just mean that Reform opposes cruelty to animals?  If the latter, then that
is not a valid example of a difference between Reform and Orthodox.
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 17:52:55 GMT

In article <14k4i9INNe65@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
|> In article <LERNER.92Jul21174434@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
|> -> Well, here we are again.  The term "ultra-orthodox" is horrible and
|> -> derogatory, as if it says "excessively".  How about just "Orthodox"?
|> -> Is there a better term?
|> 
|> How about Turbo-Orthodox?  Has a nice, modern ring to it, no?

Kidding aside, I usually use "Yeshivish-Orthodox".  That doesn't seem to be
offensive to members of that crowd with whom I've used it.
---
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Chicken
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 21:02:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Steven Schwartz asks why meat has to be bled to be Kosher but fish does
not.

I don't know if this will help him, but meat that is not bled has a lot
of uric acid in it. That's what gives meat its flavor, by the way, and
why Kosher meat is so tasteless. If you need any motivation to become
a vegetarian, or at least eat Kosher meat only, (warning-following
material not suitable for sensitive stomachs), whenever you eat a
piece of non-kosher meat it is as if the animal were peeing in your mouth.

The other interesting thing is that meat becomes tender because of
putrefaction bacteria. They are normally kept in the animal's colon
by osmotic pressure, but when the animal dies, they migrate into its
body. Hanging meat to increase its tenderness and flavor is simply
a way to let the putrefaction bacteria do their work.  Yes, putrefaction
bacteria are the ones in the animal's feces.

Thus whenever you eat meat, it's analogous to some animal peeing and
defecating in your mouth. Are you sure you want to keep eating that stuff?

Fish, of course, don't urinate in the mammalian sense, and thus the
uric acid issue isn't relevant, and they are tender enough that we
don't hang fish to rot, to make them tender, as we do with meat.

Maybe the early Rabbis somehow figured this out without a chemistry set.

David
-- 
David Sternlight        David Sternlight Inc.        email:analyst@netcom.COM
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<dfs.711993117@ro> <1992Jul24.180420.7764@umbc3.umbc.edu>
	<dfs.712002859@ro>
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:49:57

In article <dfs.712002859@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>   I believe there are a substantial number of Jews who do not
>   participate in a Jewish community because of the expense.  There are
>   many financial dis-incentives.  For example, many synagogues charge
>   virtually the same for a couple to be members as for a single person.
>   Clearly, this discriminates against singles, and that's why many shuls
>   are missing young, single members.

Indeed, my neighbor doesn't go to synagogue because, she says, they
charge too much.  Especially on high holy days.

This is in contrast to most Christian churches, which are supported by
voluntary contributions.

--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:14:51 GMT

In <1992Jul24.194438.1857@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu
(Eliot Shimoff) writes:

>Yeah, but we (you, me, all of us) have to decide _now_ about
>our kids' educations, and we can't wait for the definitive double-
>blind controlled experiments to provide definitive answers.  We gotta
>decide now, and take our best shot.  

Right.  I've made my decision, and it disagrees with yours.

[...]

>Again, controlled experiments are impossible, so post-hockery 
>is unavoidable.  Logic and convergent evidence and prudence suggest
>that, all else being equal, a day school (or yeshiva) education
>is better (in terms of adult Jewish identification) than a Hebrew
>school education.

I disagree.  There's simply no evidence to support that.  Most of my
Jewish friends have not had either day school or yeshiva education,
yet still strongly identify as Jewish.  Same with my parents and sisters.
All you and I can offer is anecdotal evidence.  My feeling is still that
family influence is much stronger than school influence in shaping a child.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 04:38:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.031539.16521@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>I do not advocate that other people violate the halachic code; that's
>up to them and I don't approve of my, your, the local rabbi's, or any-
>one else's attempting to sway the decision either way.

This is bad. If you think that halacha is wrong, then, people following the 
halacha on that point are not following God's given law.
You should make them realize their mistake. After all, there should be a 
reson for God giving the Jews his law.
Religion is not a personal matter, it includes God, the religious person and 
his/her community. 

>
>>So, are you violating halacha or what?
>
>In some cases, yes. Those are the cases where I think it is an incorrect
>assessment of what Torah means. But I don't push others to do so.

Well, I believe that the current law about intermarriage is not what the 
Torah means. I have never made anybody marry anybody else. Actally, I oppose 
marriage as an institution. However, I hate when people come and say that
intermarriage is killing my culture or something like that. 

>
>>I guess you do not know.
>
>You guess wrong, as usual.

Oh, no. I did not. I still believe that one, if one is religious, should not
play it to justify his/her sins.

>
>	-Nora
>
>

AAP
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:08:52 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.133845.14020@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>>We are not supposed to help Jews first.,
>
>Please cite a source for this last line (other than "blatant assertion" or
>emotional attachment).

My source is my experience. Like someone just told me: Charity begins at home.
And, in my home, I am the only Jew. 



>-- 
>Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
>	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton

AAP
From: VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Larry Israel)
Subject: O-C-R debate
Reply-To: <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:56:42 GMT

Warning - my viewpoint is (what I consider) Orthodox.

Why is it that the Orthodox Reform-bashers assume that the liberal stream
of Judaism takes people away from Orthodoxy? From the people that I have
met, it seems that more are taken from the non-religious or those who may
have been Orthodox but would have slipped away to nothing.

As long as the people are affiliated with a liberal stream of Judaism,
they are probably observing more mitzvoth than they would otherwise have.
They are also preserving their Jewish consciousness, and we can hope that
in the future they will return to a greater observance.