HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lizi@ocf.berkeley.edu (Cosma R. Shalizi)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Books On Magic Vs Science
Summary: Shifting slightly
Date: 13 Sep 92 22:40:00 GMT
Organization: Vampire Research Group at Berkeley :)
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandstorm.berkeley.edu


   How about Chris Stasheff (sp?) _Warlock_ books? I've just read the first
one, and it seems he's content to explain magic as psi, but...
   Does Zelazny's _Lord of Light_ count as science vs. magic? Probably not,
but it comes close & is so damn good it should be read anyhow.
   If we want to let in the riff-raff, consider any number of RPGs, most
recently _Shadowrun_.
   Broadening (slightly?) to reason vs. magic, Clive Barker's novels-
_Weaveworld_, _The Great and Secret Show_ and _Imajica_, at least (I haven't
read _Cabal_) -have this as a persistent theme. I can't recall any place
where reason/science is given a definitive thrashing and sent whimpering
home to Aristotle, but the books make their sympathies plain.
   Stephen King's _The Stand_, especially the uncut version, is fairly heavy
on both science vs. magic and reason vs. magic, though it's ambiguous about
which is better. Problems: It's huge, and some of it is quite unpleasant.
Made the mistake of reading it while I was feverish once.
   And of course, there's de Camp, with or without (but especially with)
Pratt.
<Other inconsequential ramblings deleted by computer>
	Cosma Rohilla Shalizi
	In Real Life: lizi@ocf.berkeley.edu
	larval physicist

   
-- 
"Some savages are persuaded by the 'natural light' that it is their duty to
 eat people, and even Voltaire's savages, who are led by the voice of reason
 to hold that one should only eat Jesuits, are not wholly satisfactory."
-Bertrand Russell on Rousseau in _A History of Western Philosophy_, p. 694
From: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Joan Aiken
Date: 9 Sep 1992 21:16:00 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) says:

>Does anyone else like her Dido Twite books? 

I read one or two of those many years ago. I remember them being very good.
Do you by any chance have a list of her books? I wouldn't mind reading them
again, to see if I still like them.
-- 
+-------------+------------------+
| Damien Neil | dpn2@po.cwru.edu | 
+-------------+------------------+
From: clc@kepler.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn)
Subject: Re: An unenviable position
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:19:25 GMT

In article <MJD.92Sep14092600@saul.cis.upenn.edu> mjd@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Mark-Jason Dominus) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.044435.19755@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> aaron@space.ualberta.ca (Aaron Humphrey) writes:
>>   No, I don't consider myself Piers Anthony's greatest fan, but I'm
>>   goddamn tired of the way Anthony fans are considered second-class
>>   citizens merely my profession of a single author preference.
>
>    You know, under most circumstances I'd agree with you, but don't you
>think maybe the phenomenon has something to do with that Piers Anthony
>is trash-seping bilge monster who can't write?
Let's be fair.  He smells, too.

					clc
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Christian Longshore Claiborn | clc@kepler.unh.edu | Friend of the Great     |
| Chuck Woolery's Protege      | clc@gloin.unh.edu  | Eater of Souls          |
| Future UNH Sysadmin          | clc@bifur.unh.edu  | Ask about group rates!  |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"It was all very well to say 'Drink Me,' but the wise little Alice wasn't    |
| going to do THAT in a hurry."  -- The Reverend Charles Dodgson              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rice@ttd.teradyne.com
Subject: Re: sorry, looking for a story...
Organization: Teradyne Inc., Telecommunications Division
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 02:47:28 GMT

In article <183vr7INNlth@ashley.cs.widener.edu>, hyperion@cs.widener.edu (A Kyle Berman) writes:
> There was a story I remember reading not THAT long ago which I would
> like to find again.  Help would be appreciated.
> 
> First of all, it was definitely SF.  It involved a member of the
> 'space scouts' or some such, who through a supposed act of heroism
> (which was not just as it was supposed to be) was awarded the title of
> Hero (or some other noble title) and given the right to do ANYTHING
> without getting in trouble.  He could do no wrong.  At one point,
> toward the middle of the story (it was a shortish story, not a full
> book) when he is receiving his honors, the 'President'/Leader of the
> Human Race says something to the effect of "I am considered the most
> powerful human alive today and if I could be anything in the world I
> would be you."
> 
> I thought it was Gordon R. Dickson, but after checking the books it
> would have come from, it seems I was wrong.  Now I don't know the
> author or the title.  Any help would be appreciated, but please mail
> it if you have a suggestion.
> 

Mack Reynolds - Galactic Medal of Honor - circa 1976


-- 
   John Rice        K9IJ     |  "Did I say that ?" I must have, but It was
                             |   MY opinion only, no one else's...Especially
                             |   Not my Employer's....
   rice@ttd.teradyne.com     |   Purveyor of Miracles,Magic and Sleight-of-hand
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Fen voting?? (was HUGO Awards)
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:16:51 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.125647.3968@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> louzon@aplcen (Louzon ronald g) writes:

>Okay, I give up.  Just what the hell is fen voting??  Inquiring minds
>want to know.

That's where a bunch of people stand around in a swamp and vote.  Florida is
an excellent place for this, that's why they held the Worldcon there this year.

(Don't believe anyone who tells you that the Hugo voting is called "fen voting"
because the results lead you to the Slough of Despond.  The nominees, generally,
are sufficient to do this without any voting.)


		The Pavlov dog and the Schroedinger cat
		Side by side in my forebrain sat
		With Shakespeare's monkeys crowding in behind. . .
		. . . it's all in your mind.
			-- Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: SNOW CRASH by Neal Stephenson
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:32:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.183907.3214@newshost.unh.edu> clc@kepler.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.155743.18480@galileo.physics.arizona.edu> lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat) writes:
>>
>>Sometimes Greg Bear is accounted cyberpunk (tho' why I can't figure out
>>for the life of me), and he certainly has a grain of originality.

>Say it ain't so!  Who's doing the grouping here?  I might have to have a little
>'talk' with the people stuffing _my_ favorite writers into categories.  I mean,
>it's all right for ME to do it, but when other people step on my turf, I get
>antsy.  Next they're gonna call Ellison cyber-chump.  Or Card.  Or... or...
>Larry Niven!

 Something to do with Bruce Sterling putting him in the Mirrorshades
anthology all those years ago.

Wassail,
Al Billings

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Tolkien Book List
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:15:02 GMT

In article <10SEP199201321341@amber.mgh.harvard.edu> loos@amber.mgh.harvard.edu (William D.B. Loos) writes:

. . . an excellent and useful article indeed, which I commend highly and
recommend Mr Loos convert into a periodic-posting with updates.  (See the
"Holmes Book List" and "Arthurian Reading List" in rec.arts.books for
examples of how useful these can be).  (William, if you're not willing to
take on that responsibility, I will.)

In the meanwhile some additional comments and *very* few gripes:


>2) There have been numerous special editions of both The Hobbit and LotR; only
>  generic editions have been included here.  

. . . eh?  The ANNOTATED is certainly a non-generic.


>The best maps available are 
>those made by Christopher Tolkien (CJRT) for his father.  

Fonstead's ATLAS OF MIDDLE-EARTH, based carefully on CJRT's cartography, is also
quite good, and while you list it properly below, I think it deserves a mention
in this section.  Strachey's book, well, I like it but I gather opinions vary.

Your summary of the history of the maps is excellent, btw!


>B) Related Middle-earth Works: 

Actually, I would suggest that if

>  The Road Goes Ever On: A Song Cycle.  Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien set to music 
>      by Donald Swann.  HM, 1967, 1978  (ISBN 0-395-24758-6) [op].  Allen & 
>      Unwin, 1968, 1978 (ISBN 0-04-784011-0) (British edition).

goes in this section, then THE ADVENTURES OF TOM BOMBADIL certainly ought
to, as it contains M-e stuff not in either LotR or tRGEo, while -- excepting
JRRT's introductory essay -- tRGEo contains nothing that is not in either
tAoTB or LotR.


>C) The History of Middle-earth:
>      A careful and exhaustive presentation of J.R.R. Tolkien's unpublished 
>  writings as edited by his son Christopher.  Note that this is literary
>  scholarship, no more, no less, *NOT* new stories.

Not quite true.  Some of the "Lost Tales" failed to make it into the final
SILMARILLION in any version; and certainly such things as THE LOST ROAD and
THE (whatsit) CLUB PAPERS (in SAURON DEFEATED) are entirely new.  The latter,
of course, are completely incomplete (if you follow me), while most of the 
"Lost Tales" are, at least, complete drafts.


>J) Secondary Works II -- Critical Works: 

>  J.R.R. Tolkien: Six Decades of Criticism; by Judith A Johnson.  
>      (Bibliographies & Indexes in World Literature Series No. 6).  
>      Greenwood Press, 1986 (ISBN 0-313-25005-7).

Perhaps this would be K) Tertiary Works
:*)

Again: an excellent job.  My applause to Mr Loos!


		The Pavlov dog and the Schroedinger cat
		Side by side in my forebrain sat
		With Shakespeare's monkeys crowding in behind. . .
		. . . it's all in your mind.
			-- Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
From: xoanon@carina.unm.edu (timothy k istian soholt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Blowups Happen
Date: 11 Sep 92 23:07:33 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole) writes:

>See Pashkin's _The World Beyond the Hill_ for more
>Heinlein tidbits.

Um, shouldn't that be "Panshin," as in Alexei and Corey (sp?) ?

-- Tim Soholt (xoanon@carina.unm.edu), The Man With No .sig
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson)
Subject: Re: Mercedes Lackey
Keywords: Email of The Queen, Mage Winds, fan club
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Surrey, British Columbia, CANADA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:53:02 GMT

In a recent rec.arts.sf.written article, jmsie@mtu.edu (Jon) wrote:

>Once again I invite all fans of Misty to join EmOTQ, please remember this is
>a moderated mailing list.

Just a note to anyone who wants to join this list: it is *not* a moderated
mailing list in the Usenet sense. What it is is an electronic newsletter
which is compiled by Jon. You can send him e-mail and he'll include it
the newsletter. 

This is in no way a flame at Jon. I just want to help people avoid
confusion.

Marcy

-- 

Marcy Thompson		
  SoftQuad (West)			
    marcy@sq.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: clc@kepler.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn)
Subject: Re: SNOW CRASH by Neal Stephenson
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:43:45 GMT

In article <MJB.92Sep10165802@oak5.doc.ic.ac.uk> mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.021307.24667@newshost.unh.edu> clc@kepler.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn) writes:
>>In article <920909.368448810@derrida.postmodern.com> mcb@derrida.postmodern.com (Am I Not Your Girl?) writes:
>>>But, wasn't that what made Gibson's works so much fun?
>>>
>>
>>It was the ONLY thing that made his works so cool.  It wasn't like he knew
>>anything about computers, writing, character development or plot structure.
>
>Come on. Gibson's works have their flaws - and they are major - but
>there was more to them than that. He could do powerful, atmospheric
>description, and his imagination was in the right place.

The description was pretty cliched, IMHO.  I found most of his settings and 
plots incredibly derivative of "Blade Runner" and psycho "Dr. Who" episodes.
I mean- do the descriptions of Chiba City in "Neuromancer" or those of even
modern-day settings in "Burning Chrome" have anything in them you can't get
anywhere else?  Pretty hackneyed.  His retelling of these isn't bad, but
hell, if all you're doing is describing something already described by other
people, you should be writing travel guides, not science fiction.

The only 'cyberpunk' writer with a grain of originality in him, at least in my
experience, is Bruce Sterling.

>He did know *nothing* about computers, though.

Glad we agree on something.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Christian Longshore Claiborn | clc@kepler.unh.edu | Friend of the Great     |
| Chuck Woolery's Protege      | clc@gloin.unh.edu  | Eater of Souls          |
| Future UNH Sysadmin          | clc@bifur.unh.edu  | Ask about group rates!  |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"It was all very well to say 'Drink Me,' but the wise little Alice wasn't    |
| going to do THAT in a hurry."  -- The Reverend Charles Dodgson              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: chuq@gallant.apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: _Oracle_, by Mike Resnick (no spoilers!)
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:11:39 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

>Although Resnick does excellent characters, and his, ummm, scenery and 
>stage dressing shall I call it? is worth the price of admission, I found
>_Soothsayer_ just a touch irritating: "It's been done before!", I thought.

>The Soothsayer (the character) is basically the same gimmick as the Teela
>Brown gene.  Realized in a different way, but the same net effect.

> but this bothered me.

>Anybody else have the same feeling?

Well, Larry Niven's spaceships are just like E.E. Doc Smith's spaceships.
Realized in a different way, but with the same net effect, but this really
bothered me. 

Anybody else have the same feeling?

(and, no, I don't think that Mike's Soothsayer/Oracle and Teela Brown are
the same thing, even if the same thing is really different, sort of.)




-- 
Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= Member, SFWA
  chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ =+= Editor, OtherRealms
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: charless@sco.com (charles stross)
Subject: Re: Dreamer Fithp
Organization: The Somewhat Contagious Operation, Inc.
Cc:    
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:26:13 +0000

In article <1992Sep7.202236.29238@u.washington.edu> daynem@byron.u.washington.edu writes:
>Niven and Pournelle, in FOOTFALL, mention a Threat Team (the "Dreamer Fithp")
>that's composed of several writers of SF that advise the federal gov't. in 
>times of unusual crisis. I believe Niven makes reference to a similar group 
>in one of his short stories (maybe in the LIMITS collection??).
>
>Is there any evidence to suggest that such an organization may exist, either
>actively or in a contingency-based set-up?
>
>If so, who is (or should be) on it? I'd guess Niven, Pournelle, David Brin, 
>Orson Scott Card, Asimov (were he still alive), Carl Sagan (maybe the only
>true scientist of the group), Gregory Benford, Greg Bear, and a few others
>(mostly "hard SF" writers, in all likelihood).

Well, I think Professor Benford might take exception to Carl
Sagan being described as "the only true scientist of the group".
But he'd be lining up behind Doctor David Brin to black your eye.
(Nuclear physicists score lower than astrophysicists :) Then
there's the fact that Pournelle and Asimov have/had doctorates
but didn't use them much, and with the exception of Card (who I
don't know about) the others you name all had at least one
science degree to Master's level.

>Anyone know anything they want to share?

Personally, I don't believe a word of it.  SF writers are
socially marginal creatures who tend to be bad at working in
teams.  Worse, some of them have Odd Politics or Weird Religions.
While something like it _might_ be assembled in the event of an
influx of BEM's, most governments have their own think-tanks of
scientists who spend all their time trying to figure out just
what the implications would be if the Emperor Penguins of the
Ross Ice Shelf were to develop an anti-proton catalysed fission
weapon and threaten to take out the Kurile Islands, and similar
whacky contingency plans.  Take the RAND Corporation for
example.  (These are the people who invented MAD, the Californium
bullet, and most of the similar insane gizmotrons of the Cold War
Era.) SF writers are in the business of selling books, not
planning how to defend the world against an invasion from Proxima
Centauri.  That's the government's job ...



-- 
this signature rescued by the .sigfile liberation front
From: Fritz.Niespodziany@p4.f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org (Fritz Niespodziany)
Sender: postmaster@p2.f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org
From: mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Doomsday Book
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:41:47 GMT
Organization: LSI Logic/Headland Technology

In article <18qf7bINN7t4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole) writes:
>The story makes an unsettling observation, from the female point of
>view, of how men perceive intercourse (this is being read on a public
>access UNIX) and what gives them pleasure: dominance and subjugation
>of someone weaker.

Sounds like standard Politically Correct sexist twaddle to me.
*THE* female point of view, how *MEN* (each and every one)
percieve, etc... Yeah, right.  Tell me another.

-- 
Mike Van Pelt       |"Dreams of flight are universal among space-faring races.
LSI Logic/Headland  | Indeed, such dreams may form much of the motivation for 
mvp@hsv3.lsil.com   | becoming space-faring."   --  T'chaih Hrinach
sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: clc@kepler.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Comments
Keywords: Piers Anthony, Drek, Sweet Valley High books
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:55:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.103409.1@pearl.tufts.edu> mweinste@pearl.tufts.edu writes:
>
>Thank you for writing this... the point is that whether or not you like an
>author, you do not have to attack, mock, or criticize those who hold a
>differing opinion. 
So, we don't HAVE to... but it's more fun than a barrel full of formaldehyde
on the fourth of July, as my grandmother used to say.
> It is rude and pretentious to comment in this manner
>on someone's individual taste.  In addition, no one is really interested in
>your opinion if you respond in this manner. 
Apparently, you are, if the lovely hate mail you sent me means anything...

					clc

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "I like the girls I go out with to have a head on their shoulders." | Wasted|
| "I hate necks."        -- Steve Martin                              | Space |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Christian Claiborn, proud owner of over 4,000 individual Amy Grant albums.  |
| Maintainer of Snake for kepler@unh.edu, brilliant BNF parser, fun dude.     |
|        clc@kepler.unh.edu/clc@gloin.unh.edu/C_CLAIBORN@unhh.unh.edu         |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Re: _Oracle_, by Mike Resnick (spoilers!)
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:43:43 GMT

In article <lairdb.716085017@crash> lairdb@crash.cts.com (Laird P. Broadfield) writes:
>In <1992Sep08.100055.1177@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
>Although Resnick does excellent characters, and his, ummm, scenery and 
>stage dressing shall I call it? is worth the price of admission, I found
>_Soothsayer_ just a touch irritating: "It's been done before!", I thought.
>
>The Soothsayer (the character) is basically the same gimmick as the Teela
>Brown gene.

Spoilers below!

I never thought to compare Penelope with Teela Brown.  I suppose, in a way,
the talents could be considered the same, but I think that's a really
narrow view.

With Teela Brown, the "luck" was just that:  luck.  Nothing else.  It was
not something she could control, and if she wanted something for someone
else, it was not necessarily going to happen.

Penelope, on the other hand, could choose futures.  She could choose a
future in which almost any desired result occurred, by picking which actions
on her part occurred in only the futures she was interested in.  In other
words, it was a *conscious* choice on her part.  Not so with Teela.  In
fact, Teela had to work *against* her "luck," while she was a Protector.
Penelope would never have to deal with that.

-- 
Sean Eric Fagan  | "You can't get lost in one room, no matter how
sef@kithrup.COM  |  little effort you make to learn your way around."
-----------------+    -- William E Davidsen (william@crd.GE.COM)
Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
From: jerrett@iastate.edu (Gregory A Jerrett)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Petition for the SF Channel
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:28:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Sep4.222832.802
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA

for those of you interested in getting the Science Fiction Channel the best
way to get your cable company to subscribe is to present them with a
simple, handwritten petition with a couple of hundred signatures.
Your local comic book store or science fiction bookseller shoiuld be the 
best place rto start or find a petition to sign.

For those of you here in Ames, Mayhem comics has started a petition.  They
have about 100 signatures already but they are looking for 250 before they
turn it in to heritage cablevision.  I urger(urge) you to sign it if you haven't already.

Greg Jerrett
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written