HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: "experiments"
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:59:28 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1992Apr6.015822.26877@latcs1.lat.oz.au> burns@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jonathan Burns) writes:
>In article <1992Apr3.214501.17057@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
>As to the military, by all accounts they have magical fads like the
>rest of us. I'm sure they've attempted telepathy experiments with
>submarines and the like. They're probably a bit embarrassed by it,
>but if there were anything reliable, they'd be there.
>
>BTW, do we have any solid results on cetacean intelligence? John Lilly
>claimed to have left the field because he didn't want to keep dolphins
>in captivity; later exercises in testing problem-solving skills in
>dolphins came up null (*); there are some interesting anecdotes involving
>orcas; and then there are a couple of hair-prickling things like
>whales trapping shrimp schools in rising trains of bubbles. It's all
>pretty iffy.
>
>* according to SF writer David Brin, who wrote a lovely story around
>enhanced dolphins.

Now, let's assume for a moment that dolphins and various cetaceans have
some real intelligence, and can communicate sophistocated concepts among
themselves, just for the sake of argument.  After having a few of their
kind come back with tales about captivity by humans, do you think perhaps
they'd be handing around a lore of information about humans:

	If you are captured by a human, act stupid.  Try to act
	no smarter than perhaps a bull sealion.

It would be an issue of preservation of the race, no doubt...

This proves that dolphins are more intelligent and disciplined and
communicative than chimps, who continue to exhibit intelligence even
though it means that we tend to torture them unmercifully and complete
restrict their freedom on a frequent basis.

Do you know that, in terms of genetic maps, humans and chimps have more
in common than horses and donkeys?  Think about it...

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Summary: not so
Date: 7 Apr 92 21:28:37 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Radian Corp. Austin, TX

In article <loren.34@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu>, loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
# In article <29E0EF42.4253@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
# >In article <loren.29@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (
# Loren Miller) writes:>>In article <1992Apr1.184049.28268@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> 
# mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon) writes:>>>Roman history from the 
# assassination of the Gracchi down to>>>Octavian's consolidation of power was 
# a steadily intensifying>>>and increasingly brutal civil war with short 
# pauses to deal>>>with rebellious allies, slaves or provinces.
# >>
<stuff deleted>
# 
# >Bad dagos aren't Mafia any more than bad things done by ancient Irishmen
# >make them ancient IRA.  Sorry to snap so hard, but I am Italian-American
# 
# I didn't accuse you or anyone else of being a Mafioso, Roman, or a 
# criminal who carries a stilleto. Though I can understand that you were 
# hassled for being a "vinny" (in the current philadelphia parlance) I also 
# think that you're overly sensitive.

I don't think she is. When one is hasseled for years, one has, it seems to me,
a right to be touchy, and to defend oneself. I, for another example, am a 
product of the 60's, and leftist. Should I not be touchy, when "politically
correct" people tell me I'm out of date, and that I was mistaken back then?

# -- 
# +++++++++++++++++++++++23
# Loren Miller              LOREN@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
# Shoes are the most basic prerequisite for liberty

Doesn't this sig imply that there is somewhere *else* to *go*?
	signed - someone stuck on this damn planet 


/*___________________________________________________________________________*
 *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
 *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
 *					                                     *
 *		         Mark Silverdragon                                   *
 *					                                     *
 *          	       	markbr@radian                                        *
 *___________________________________________________________________________*/
Etymology, n.:
	Some early etymological scholars come up with derivations that
were hard for the public to believe.  The term "etymology" was formed
from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy"
("study of").  It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow."
		-- Mike Kellen
From: Mary.Huston@f76.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Huston)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Name this song, please.
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:21:00 GMT

* From a message written by Chris Lilley to All:


 CL >>Anyway, if you know the song all this should be more than enough to
 CL >>recognize it; and if you do recognize it, please please please mail
me
 CL >or
 CL >>post the info in this group.

The song is called THE BURNING TIMES and is done by a number of artists.
 There is a canadian singer that  does it accapella,  a New York tour group
 that does it called Kenny and Tzipora (they are a group of traveling
 songsters) and several other groups.

I agree that certain versions of the song can be construed as Diannic or
 feminist but you have to agree that the people doing the inquisition were
 men...  Of course men also died in that time not just women they forget to
 mention that.

I would be very interested in hearing the complimentary God song.  I have a
 God chant to go with the Goddess chant if that is what you were talking
about.

Blessings

Mary Huston 
---
 * Origin: The Wolf's Grove -=- The Wolf's Den -=- (816) 361-7670
(1:280/76)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rlewis@csws4.ic.sunysb.edu (Robert Lewis)
Subject: Full Moon
Originator: rlewis@csws4.ic.sunysb.edu
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:47:17 GMT


Lets stop all these differences between us and act like 
real pagans. Remember it's all in what you believe! Isn't
being a Pagan an individualistic thing. So stop trying to push your views 
and let's help each other out. It's a big world and we are still
just a small part of it. So go out tonight, cast a spell if you choose
and enjoy the full moon. The only way we can ever practice in peace is 
if we can stand together and show our strengh in numbers. So put
aside the petty differences and lets just be proud top be pagans


                                             Bob (the six of cups) Lewis
From: nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: missing monday/Opps I mean Tuesday!
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:20:24 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

In article <1992Apr8.115800.2819@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>, nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
> Does noone like Monday's
> 
> Yesterday, according to what I have seen had no entries.
> Was there some holiday i don't know about? or does everyone just avoid that
> day?
> 
> Blessings(even on a monday)
> Azure
> 
Opps, some how I got the dates confused.  I guess it is Tuesday that noone
likes.  Still, is there a reson for the gap or was it just a random occurance?

Blessings if the Goddess
Azure
"Does anyone really no what time it is?  Does anyboby really care?"
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:36:01 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Newt World Order

In article <loren.37@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu>, loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
> Go ahead, be proud of your scars. I hail you for it. However, there is a 
> difference between sensitive and over-sensitive. In the case of my original 

gawds! sometimes I'm such an asshole!

sorry, folks.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                  internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Throw this screen against the wall, right now!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 21:36:02 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.165113.2823@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>, nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu 
writes:
> 	2) I have been reading "LLyweLLens(sp?) Guide for the Individual
> 	Wiccan."  Now its say that their are a Goddess and a God(no mention 
> 	of Horned or not) and that it doesn't matter what you name them.
> 	I cam deal with that, But I does not mention any Child( like the Sun
> 	Child) in the book.  Other books I read have mentioned Him in various
> 	form, but I am not sure where he fits in the plan.  Is he important
> 	or nessecary to Wicca?  I feel he should be because many religions
> 	have a Son god.  I would welcome your opinions and knowlege.

The Sun Child is one aspect of the God.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Saddam Hussein still has a job.  Do you?
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: alt.pagan survey
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 16:44:08 GMT

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:

>emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh) writes:

>: >What does a person's religion have to do with whether they are a pagan
>: >or neo-pagan anyway?
>: 
>: Well, if you go by my dictionary and pagan == !judeo-christian-(islamic?)
>: then religion does have a significant factor in determining whether
>: one is pagan or not.
>: 
>: Eric

>Yes and no. As you yourself posted, a person could be an atheist and still
>be pagan. As such - religion is not involved. Also, why couldn't a person
>be Judaic, Christian or Islamic and still be pagan? What do you call a  
>person who practices the Christian faith but also practices Witchcraft,
>for example? Or an Islamic person who also believes in other gods?

>Bill

Umm, what definition of Witchcraft are you using?  Not all of Witchcraft is
a religion.  Wicca is certainly a religion, but Wicca is not all that is
Witchcraft.  A friend of my emphasises the word "Craft", pointing out  that
the fundamental Witchcraft is a way of doing things, not a religion.  I must
agree with her, even though my Craft is woven with my religion.  OF course, this
has nothing to do with being pagan.  A person who is Christian and practices
non-religious Witchcraft is a Christian, and not a pagan.

And, Bill--what do *you* mean by pagan?  You don't seem to have a meaning for
it.  If everyone is pagan, then the word makes no distinction and shouldn't
be used.  I think that those who identify as pagan, but not religious, are
very parallel to people who are culturally Jewish: there is a context, which 
arises out of religion, which informs their lives, but does not cause them to
feel that they have a religion.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Weird! :-)
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Sacrifice
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:56:17 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <loren.39@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
>Assuming that sacrifice is the killing or offering of living matter or a 
>votive representation thereof, what is the reason for it? I understand that 
>some deities require blood sacrifice, but what about those who worship gods 
>who are not bloodthirsty? For instance, why offer the first fruits of the 
>harvest?

Sacrifice, literally means "to make sacred."  Nothing to do with killing,
although in the case of human and animal sacrifice, that usually came into
it.

My theory of the word is that since christianity doesn't have any tradition
of sacrifice -- once god gave the sacrifice of his only son, any other 
sacrifice is unnecessary, etc... -- the phrase "pagan sacrifice" to describe
other religious traditions gradually got shortened to just "sacrifice."
Since the focus of christian contempt for pagan sacrifice centered around
blood sacrifice, then sacrifice became doubly associated with "ikky" 
sacrifices.

The sacrifice of an object usually requires nothing more than the dedication
of the object in some formal way.  Setting the fruit on an altar, for 
example, and after the ritual, taking it and sharing it among the people.
Now it is sacred, it has been given to the gods, and the gods give it back.
As a community, we benefit from the gifts of the gods.  Also, that which
is given is returned.  All sorts of good community bonding messages and
such, here.

Existing traditions of "first fruits" festivals in modern culture include
the jewish sukkoth holiday, and the US and Canadian thanksgiving holidays.
Also, the fall 'county fair.'

That which is sacrificed should not be allowed to rot, but should be returned
to the representatives of the god/dess/e/s.  In populist religions, this
means the community of celebrants.  In more heirarchical religions, even-
tually, the sacrifices were used to enrichen the dedicated clergy.  In
between, you have the holy hermit types, and shaman types, who were given
gifts to support their work (and keep them from starving...) which were
understood to also be holy gifts.

I forget where it was that there was a tradition that the very best grain
and fruit of the season was given to the priesthood.  It then disappeared
until planting time when the seed was redistributed to the people for 
planting.  This meant that people were never tempted to eat the seed 
corn over the winter, and that the best stock was always used to plant
the next crop.  Also, it meant that a family who had crop failure still
had seed in the spring.  Anyone remember where this comes from?  Was this
celtic?

Now *that's* what I call a sacred trust!


-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: radzy@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Omelan Radzykewycz)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Pagan-Christians(was Re: Animal Sacrifice (was: Re: Raising
Date: 17 Apr 92 14:58:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.smp39INNev9
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

What the heck am I doing responding to *this* thread.  Oh
well, I must be more foolish than I thought.


> > 	3) If you believe in Christ, you are a Christian.
> 
> Only if Christ is your primary deity. You could believe in Christ's existence
> without believing in his divinity, or you could believe in his divinity without
> making him your focus.
 

I might be an example of the "believe in his existence
without (necessarily) believing in his divinity" school.  I
might also be an example of the "believe in his divinity
without making him my focus" school.  It depends on how you
look at things.

I truly believe that there was a person whose legend evolved
into the modern version of Jesus.  I believe he was a regular
old person, a prophet, and perhaps a good leader.  If he was
a god, then he was a god in exactly the same way EACH of us
is a god.

So, worshipping Jesus makes about as much sense to me as
worshipping Richard Nixon or Peter Lewis (who's that?).  They
are each "gods".  They are each "divine".  But none of them
is worth my fealty, much less my worship.

Blessings!

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	-- radzy			|  do as ye will.
					|
	Tim Omelan Radzykewycz     	|  "Just pray for a
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|  tough hide and a
					|  tender heart."
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu	|    -- Ruth Graham
					|
------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
From: bbooth@bnr.ca (Bradley Booth)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: sp
Date: 15 Apr 92 16:25:36 GMT
Reply-To: bbooth@bnr.ca (Bradley Booth)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd
Originator: bbooth@bcrks6


In article <4463@radian.UUCP>, markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr) writes:

[... various lines deleted]

> what was effectively laziness. Until you spoke up, I was assuming that
> it was another ignorant idiot, *not* a disabled person. Remember, all
> we can see is your words.

As one who has worked with and known physically and mentally challenged
people, I found your comment very insulting.  I understand that you may
not have meant it that way... at least I hope you didn't.  I would think
that those who post to alt.pagan would be judged on the content of their
words, not on their grammar.  If you're going to flame someone, do it
based on what they said and not on how they said it.

> Again, my apologies.
> 
> 	mark Silverdragon

Just my two cents worth.

Brad


      __o       Brad Booth                |  Keep on crankin'!
    _`\<,_      Dept. 5S31                |
   (*)/ (*)     Bell-Northern Research    |  Pedal Power -
 ------------   bbooth@bnr.ca             |    Ecologically viable.
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (Doug Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pagan Psychologist Needed
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:53:06 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

Please bear with me, everyone who is not in the Chicagoland area...  I'm using
some primitive software, and I can't modify the distributation of the
posting.  (I'm posting here as well as the local feed, because there is a much
better chance of finding someone who knows the answer...)

A user on my system is in DESPERATE need of a Pagan Psychitrist.  S/he is on
the verge of suicide.  The problem is based on a relationship problem.  S/He
does not want to go to a regular psychitrist because s/he and his/her lover
share a psychic bond that most psychs would consider impossible, therefore the
person in question must have a few bolts loose...

I need to find a Psych for this person who is in the Chicagoland area.  (S/he
lives in the Western suburbs.)

Any info would be MUCH appreciated.

Thanks in advance to those who can help, and to everyone else for bearing with
this message...

Krikket  --  a.k.a. Doug Krick  --  krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us   

"An armed society is a polite society"  -- Bob Heinlein
"Robert Heinlein died for your sins"  -- A butten seen at Cons, approved by
                                         Mrs. Heinlein when she saw them...
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Saturday, 11 Apr 1992 19:40:15 EDT
From: Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
 <1992Apr10.041435.7808@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> <12490@umd5.umd.edu>

the Sun Child in my myth cycle has no sex.  no one picked up on
that, but it is quite deliberate...  Grian...  hmm...  that one rang
bells, i think the Sun Goddess just got a name - or my next child
did (or both?)

                                         -ailsa
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Sacrifice
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:46:37 GMT

In article <4468@radian.UUCP> markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr) writes:
>In article <29EB6400.482@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
><stuff deleted>
>> 
>> Well, that's basically it.  I *told* you it was written in *AHEM* my
>> typically "expressive" style -- i.e. strident and bitchy as all hell.
>
>Speaking of semantics, why is it that you describe your style as "strident
>and bitchy", where any alpha male (hell, betas and on downwards), if they had
>written the same thing, would be describing it as "blunt and forceful"
>

Even if I call myself "blunt and forceful," I'll be called "strident and
bitchy," so I may as well reclaim the words with pride -- kind of like
some lesbians have done with the word "dyke."

But, that doesn't mean I *like* using those words.

Blessings,
Janis C.
From: ileicht@jarthur.claremont.edu (Spiff)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: warfare and women
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:54:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: muddcs.1992Apr13.175412.10491
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711

> Even a
> quick look through the sagas will show that when menfolk are slow to exact
> revenge for insults, or reluctant to take up weapons to solve their
> differences (what we in the modern day would see as a prudent and reasonable
> course of action and would encourage men to do) Viking women would taunt
> and agitate and finally shame their men into going and killing their
> enemies, rather than urging them to seek better solutions.


Just one thought...... unless I am mistaken wasn't most of the written
tradition written by men? If that is true it would make sense that the men
would exxagerate the activities of their wives.. much like men bitch about
women whever we can when they aren't around...

Just because it is written as so in the myths doesn't mean that it neccesarily
happened that way. 

I am not sure if matriarchies were peaceful or not... I am of the pre-disposi
tion that they were more peaceful than patriarchies.. while I have no 
scientific evidence for this... I do have a few possible intuitions..

One of which is that mothers are often fairly protective of their children..
and might not be in such a hurry to send them off to go get killed... 
many of the matriarchies were nature based.. while death is as much
of teh cycle as birth... I don't think mass murder fits into the philo-
sophical base of a nature worshiper..

I am not sure that my opinions are right.. but it will take more than a 
bunch of literature written by other men to convince me.....
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Are there Pagan Atheists?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:44:23 GMT

ursulus@status.gen.nz (malcolm fletcher) writes:

>I LIKE IT!!!! as to oppresses in the US, Christianity oppresses everywhere, 
>by it's very nature it seeks to oppress, you can't have an open minded 
>Christian, keep up the GOOD FIGHT!

This is a bigoted statement!  
And I find it rather offensive--and I'm not even Christian!  Have you read
anything by Amanda Walker in this newsgroup?  She is Christo-pagan.  The
Senior member of my Community is Christian, and actively supports me being
a Witch.  You are ignorant of the diversity of Christians--you have no place
to speak.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Wicca is a Green and Fuzzy Religion
               --Pug and Bran
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:4459 sci.skeptic:7873