From: spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Heaven,
Date: 30 Sep 92 13:52:15 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth

Eric James Ewanco wrote:

> Excerpts from christia: 29-Sep-92 Re: Heaven, Stephen P. Kingston@ABER (3465)
> 
> More specifically and Scripturally, he is saying that good deeds makes
> faith _complete_.  That is, faith is useless without works, as James
> says --

With this much I agree.

>  useless, not real faith, unable to save, unable to justify.
> It's not just a "better" faith -- it is only faith that can truly save
> ("Can such a faith save him?")

Now I disagree (you knew I would!). As I pointed out in my ONCE SAVED 
essay in the CHRISTIA library,  James is talking about the * poor man * 
who is in need of help when he says can a man's faith save him (the other
man).

Now I suggested once before that we could save going over old ground 
if you read that essay.

To get your copy, send the one line message:

GET ONCE SAVED

to 

LISTSERV@ASUACAD (if you use bitnet mail)

or

LISTSERV@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU (if you use internet mail)

The faith, in short, is useless to everyone else.

> ...Paul never said, however, that deeds played no part
> in this -- besides the fact that Paul is speaking of the Jewish law, and
> James is speaking of Christian good deeds of charity.  Paul never said
> we were saved by faith _alone_.

 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it
is the gift of God:  Not of works, lest any man should boast."
--Paul (Ephesians 2:8,9)

> Indeed he says that there _must_ be good deeds to complete the faith,
> for without those deeds, the faith is not a saving faith -- it is not
> real faith, it is only on the level of the demons who believe.  The
> demons believe in the Son of God, but they certainly aren't thereby
> justified, now are they?

On the contrary, the faith is saving faith but it is nothing more. James does 
indeed talk about the demons who believe, but this actually shows that
both James and the readers know that the very fact they believe is a gift
of God.  

James is writing to a group of saved Christians. They know they are saved, 
but there are no deeds to accompany the saving faith so James says: "you
guys are no better then the demons - at least they tremble before the 
mighty hand of God."

Now remember James is not necessarily suggesting you can believe without
being saved. Remember the demons are in a different position - There is 
no redemption for them, and their eyes are not blinded to belief by Satan.

> Paul tells us in Philippians to "work out our salvation with fear and
> trembling" (NIV).  Not sure that assurance is justified here.  

Read Romans 8 and see how assured Paul is of salvation.

> ...  Do you live in fear that your
> parents will disown you? 

No.

> Do you deny that they can, or will if you
> behave wickedly enough? 

Yes, I deny it. I do not know of anything I could do to stop my parents from 
loving me. I do not know of any act which could stop that love. I can dissapoint
them and provoke them to anger, but I can never stop their love.

Now if my parents, who are by nature evil, know how to give such good gifts
then how much more will my heavenly father also love me?

> Do you live in fear of having your national
> citizenship revoked? Of course not!  You would never contemplate doing
> anything that would cause you to have your national citizenship revoked!
>  Yet you know it is possible to lose that citizenship.

As far as I am aware, there is nothing I can ever do to revoke my British 
nationality. Even if I become a citizen of another country I will retain my 
British citizenship.
 
> How do you understand the parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew
> 25:21ff? 

Actually it is Matthew 25:32ff

Simply put, I believe the sheep are the elect of God, being those who are
saved by his grace, and justified by faith. The goats are everyone else.

Why does Christ talk of works here? Simply because when we are saved by
faith there will always be some accompanying work, and it is when we are 
saved that this work becomes sweet to our Lord.

The goats may have done good works too, but those works will not save 
them because the goal of all such works were selfish. It is only when we 
know that doing or not doing works has absolutely no effect on our final 
destination that we can truly do works unselfishly, and thus glorify God in 
those works.

> Eric
Stephen.
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU