From: exukev@exu.ericsson.se (Kevin Autrey)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Soc.motss Reorganization - VOTING BEGINS!
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:51:25 GMT
Reply-To: exukev@exu.ericsson.se (Kevin Autrey)
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              Any opinions expressed are strictly those of the
              user and not necessarily those of Ericsson.

BZZZZZT!  Time's up!  The deadline for submitting proposals for the
renaming of the soc.motss hierarchy has come and gone.  All of the
received proposals have been given below - identified with a Proposal
Number.  This proposal number will be used to indicate which proposal
you'd like to see implemented for the reorgnization.

In order to separate the issues under consideration, voting will occur
on two items:

  A) The "root" hierarcy name.  I've compiled a list of all proposed
     root names from which you may choose.

  B) The sub-grouping organization underneath the root hierarchy
     name.  These will be based on the information given in the
     individual proposals received by me during the proposal period.
     *** NOTE *** - In most of the proposals, they layout the sub-
     grouping using some "root name" as the base (i.e. motss, 
     lesbigay, queer, whatever).  When you vote for the sub-grouping
     proposal, you are voting ONLY for that portion following the
     root name - the root name is voted on as a separate entity.

Several notes:

1 - All proposals for leaving soc.motss the same (including the
    defense and rationale) are included under one proposal.

2 - It is possible to "abstain" from one portion of the voting.
    This way, if you want to see the root hierarchy name change to
    soc.faggotsfromhell (which, you will note, is not a valid choice,
    since no one proposed it...), but are willing to "go with the flow"
    of whatever sub-grouping is decided upon, you can abstain from
    the sub-grouping voting.

3 - Sorry - no write-in votes.

4 - Out of range votes will be discarded (e.g. you vote for a proposal
    number that is not given in the list).

How to vote: 

Send a one line message in the format given below to
"motssvote@batpc.lonestar.org".  PLEASE - no comments or discussion in
these messages, as I probably won't see them (I'm planning on writing
some sort of awk script to tally the votes).  If you want to discuss
something with me, then send mail to "kevin@batpc.lonestar.org".

The format for the vote is: 

VOTE x y

where:
  x : The Root Hierarchy Name proposal number you wish to vote for
  y : The Hierarchy Sub-grouping proposal number you wish to vote for

Some examples of votes:

VOTE 0 0 - Your vote will be discarded - it is meaningless.
VOTE 1 1 - Will mean keep soc.motss the way it is currently.
VOTE x 2 - Will mean keep soc.motss the way it is currently.
VOTE 0 5 - Whatever root name is agreed upon, but with subgroupsings
           as proposed by Proposal #5.
VOTE 2 0 - Root name Soc.lesbigay, with whatever subgroupings is
           agreed upon.
VOTE 2 1 - Root name Soc.lesbigay, with no subgrouping.
VOTE 1 3 - soc.motss, with the subgroupings proposed by Proposal #3.

One vote per person, please.  These votes will not be seen by the
general public (or the net.crowd).  After they are received and
processed, they will be deleted - so don't not vote for fear of having
your name show up on the net (muffinhood/anonymity will be preserved,
in other words).

Okay, with all that out of the way, let's get on with seeing what we
can cast votes for...

*** Root Hierarchy Name Proposals ******************************************

0 - Abstain
1 - soc.motss
2 - soc.lesbigay
3 - soc.queer

*** Hierarchy Sub-grouping Proposals ***************************************

--- Proposal #  0 ----------------------------------------------------------

Abstain

--- Proposal #  1 ----------------------------------------------------------

No subgrouping - all posts should go into a single group (much like 
soc.motss is today, except under the Root Hierarchy Name Proposal which 
was just voted for).

--- Proposal #  2 ----------------------------------------------------------

--- From: tachyon@cats.UCSC.EDU

Just so you get a contrary view ... at this point it is my fear that
the damage caused by splitting the group will outweigh any possible
benefit.  Sure, its size makes it unwieldy, but it also makes for a
very bountiful, rich environment full of wonderful people, enabling
all sorts of inter/transactions.  I worry that trying to force it into
categories will change it from this critical mass into a collection of
more mundane, less inspired newsgroups.  And this from a person who
often can't keep up with it.

--- From: peter li'ir key <key@soda.berkeley.edu>

proposal:
i would like soc.motss to remain as is.
reason:
i don't think current format is 'broken' and doesn't need
'fixing'

pete li'ir key
key@soda.berkeley.edu

--- From: foucault@netcom.com (Howard Arthur Faye)

Please register my vote in favor of *NO* change in either the name or
structure of soc.motss.

--- From: kgdykes@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes)

i propose the root heirarchy for soc.motss should be unchanged (ie: soc.motss)

i do not particulary see any rational subgrouping that could occur.

--- From: jackw@drbear.COM (Jack E. Wilkinson)

Leave the current organization of one group, soc.motss, in place!

My two-cents worth!

--- From: tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett)

My proposal is for soc.motss, but I will vote for the best proposal after
the summary is posted.

--- Proposal #  3 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: rdonahue@ursa-major.spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)

	soc.motss[.misc] - soc.motss as we know and love it
	soc.motss.info (moderated) - information, news clippings,
		announcements, phobe reports, etc.
	soc.motss.current - current events, political action, followups
		from soc.motss.info, GBLO*-folx in the news, etc.
	soc.motss.support - coming out, resources, etc.
	soc.motss.d (mailing list) - discussion on soc.motss USENET
		issues - future reorgs, etc.
	
	Other ideas I could see as possibilites:
	soc.motss.womyn (moderated) - group for womyn.  Men
		can read but are not encouraged to post.
	soc.motss.flame - to keep the other groups more in line...
		pithy comments and acidic camp welcome...

--- Proposal # 4 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: xtkmg@blaze.trentu.ca (Kate Gregory)

Yes, I [...] prefer "motss" to any of the proposed replacements.

I propose the addition of

soc.motss.info (moderated) for announcements, press releases,
articles from the newspaper and things heard on the radio. Moderator(s)
would hold incomplete (I only heard the last part) postings back
in case a more complete one arrived later and eliminate duplicates.
Followups to soc.motss or soc.motss.activism.

soc.motss.activism (unmoderated) for discussion and arguments about
changing the world.

soc.motss would remain unchanged, for describing the world as it is, general
chitchat and gossip, coming out stories and general support.
Crossposting would be discouraged in the FAQ and by a few self-appointed
anti-crossposting emailers, but not enfored in any way.

Kate

--- Proposal #  5 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: comrade@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Peter Cooper)

rename	soc.motss -> soc.motss.talk
	After all, this is the main use of soc.motss.  To leave a
	'hanging' group like soc.motss is a recipe for confusion and
	disaster.  I prefer .talk to .misc.

create	soc.motss.info
	Nice name for a moderated information and announcement group

create	soc.motss.support
	Tries to take some of the more 'meaningful' traffic out of the
	main .talk group.  It seems to me that there will be a
	substantial minority who will read only .talk or only .support.
	This is a good basis for a split.

create	soc.motss.activism
	This could be a very fun group.  Prefer this to the other
	suggestion .advocacy which has attracted flamers to other
	hierarchies.  Reason for removing this traffic from .talk is
	similar to that for .support.

At this point, rest for a while, and see how things work out.  This
reorg should make soc.motss.talk significantly more readable than
soc.motss is currently.

--- Proposal #  6 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: anonymous

*.announce : moderated, announcements of events, news items
*.archives : moderated.  FAQ's, dictionaries, bear codes, etc.
*.debate   : unmoderated, politics, arguments, flamewars.
*.misc     : unmoderated, everything else.

--- Proposal #  7 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: jefu@jupiter.nmt.edu (Jeff Putnam)

>- Your suggested "root" hierachy name (soc.motss, soc.lesbigay, 
>  soc.queer, etc.)

soc.motss - mostly because of historical tradition, also because
soc.gay wont appear to be women inclusive, and soc.lesbigay will
invite bi postings which belong for the most part in soc.bi.
soc.motss and subgroups will all run under the default charter
as already defined - that is, no gay bashing.

>- The full name of each proposed sub-group in the new hierarchy

soc.motss.info - for informational postings, moderated.

soc.motss.info.d - for followups to soc.motss.info, unmoderated

   - the following groups are to remain unstructured except that 
   - the default soc.motss charter (see above) is to be followed
   - and no cross-posting among these groups would be allowed - this
   - might require automatic moderation but it could be done by a
   - program and these could be set up at more than one site. 
   - I anticipate that these will self organize over time.  

soc.motss.mauve
soc.motss.taupe
soc.motss.ochre
soc.motss.azure

soc.motss.limited - dan greening's proposal for an automoderated group
   - with one post per person per day.  

   - this is a radical and experimental organization.  It may well
   - fail, but I think its worth a shot.

--- Proposal #  8 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)

In soc.motss you write:

 >- Your suggested "root" hierachy name (soc.motss, soc.lesbigay, 
 >  soc.queer, etc.)

I prefer soc.motss for largely sentimental reasons.  If that is
considered too cryptic I would vote for soc.lesbigay from what I've
seen suggested.

I have a strong preference for making no split in the group *yet*.
I prefer to spend six months aggressively discouraging crossposting
(especially homophobic crossposting) and to re-evaluate at that time.

However:  If there is to be a split, my first suggestion would be to
add some sort of "info" group that would do for announcements of
changes in laws, nondiscrimination workplace rules, events, etc.,
and perhaps of news items (i.e. "clippings") and pointers to
discussions of glb* interest happening in other groups.  This would
make the information available to people who don't have time for the
chattier group(s).

If it is necessary to split soc.motss beyond this, my preference is
for a completely arbitrary split.  Let the subgroups, however
designated, form their several personalities as time progresses.
(This is Jeff Shaumeyer's suggestion.)

 >- The full name of each proposed sub-group in the new hierarchy
No preference here.

 >- The type of discussions to be conducted in each sub-group
As suggested.

 >- Whether each subgroup is to be moderated, un-moderated, 
 >  or auto-moderated to remove cross-postings
Not moderated.

 >- A short description/rationale/defense of the hierarchy
 >  naming scheme you propose.
It is typical of conversations here that what started as "Last night
I went to see "My Favorite Idaho" becomes an argument over which 
recording of Carmen has the very worst trumpet section (on the one
hand) and a series of tortured puns on farming (that started out
from spuds and taters) on the other.  The trumpet section debate
leads us to remember the trumpet players from our high school bands,
some of whom have since come out to us, and this encourages two
old-timers to tell their coming-out stories and three erstwhile
muffins to post.  I'd hate to lose it all.  Software is getting more
sophisticated, and I think that it makes more sense to pare the
group down by discouraging crossposting and reading selectively
what's left than by setting up groups that encourage crossposting
or inhibit followups.

--- Proposal # 9 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: Minotaur@cup.portal.com (Frank)

Since any breakup of soc.motss into sub-groups is going to be
arbitrary, I'd like to propose

soc.lesbigay.mind
soc.lesbigay.body
soc.lesbigay.soul

Subjects which usually engender debate, like politics, news, science,
would be a natural fit for soc.lesbigay.mind.

Soc.lesbigay.body would be a natural home for all the physical/sensory
subjects which interest us, from cooking to medicine to travel.

Soc.lesbigay.soul would be the logical place for all our poetry and
dish and coming out stories and gestures of support to one another.

What I like most about these names for subgroups is that they are
expressive of the kind of people we GLBO folk are -- vital, feisty,
uncommon, striving to become whole in a world that prefers its
people to be nice chopped up into regular pieces that fit tidily
each into its designated niche.

Frank
Minotaur@cup.portal.com

--- Proposal # 10 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: Jess Anderson <anderson@macc.wisc.edu>

Base name = soc.lesbigay.*

soc.lesbigay.resources

   Moderated.  FAQ, Mailing lists, How to access the picture
   archive, How to access QRD, Useful contact numbers,
   Anonymous posting info, Safer sex, Other usenet
   resources, Codes, Summary of ages of consent by
   state/country, etc.


soc.lesbigay.society

   Automoderated to eliminate cross-postings.  Political
   discussion, Current events, Activism and advocacy,
   Etiology of sexuality, Misogyny/misandry, Sexism, Racism,
   Homophobia, etc.


soc.lesbigay.ourselves

   Automoderated to eliminate cross-postings.  Coming-out
   stories, Personal witness, Dealing with family and
   friends, Fears and triumphs, Grief and the plague, etc.


soc.lesbigay.conversation

   Unmoderated.  Everything else.


Note:

   The Automoderation feature should *not* generate traffic
   of its own; cross-posted material would simply be dumped
   without acknowledgement.

--- Proposal # 11 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ellen K. Seebacher" <elle@midway.uchicago.edu>

I don't really have strong opinions on a reorg, though I think "lesbigay"
is the strongest candidate for a subhierarchy name.

I suggest that, whatever else we wind up with in a split, we have an
".info" group for articles pulled from elsewhere, and various other
factoids (on the model of rec.arts.startrek.info).

I absolutely abhor the idea of auto-moderating anything.  Won't work.

--- Proposal # 12 ----------------------------------------------------------

From: anonymous

root: queer.  For namespace coherence sake, and to get potential
allies in each others' vicinity.  Also gives spawn of future
subdivisions a natural home.  Drawback: Greater visibility.  The
obscure name currently keeps away freshmen who just got their account,
and still find saying "ew yuck" over the net nonpointless.  Right now,
for the most part, only those people who remain assholes after having
been on the net long enough to find their way around bother to come
over and bother you.  You'll get newbie assholes as well as dedicated
assholes with a less obscure name, and they could be a problem just
from sheer numbers, even if their every post was ignored.

Anyway, assuming you go with queer as a root-

soc.queer.announcements: Meetings, political events, manifestos, full
text of amendment 2, etc.  Moderated.  About the only part of the
soc.motss mix that's easy to separate out.

soc.queer.motss: basically the same old soc.motss, minus announcemnts.
Unmoderated or automoderated, I don't know enough about the technical
side to know if auto can be done with low cost/annoyance.  (99% of
what's crossposted to soc.motss, I kill immediately.)  Moderation comment
applies to all groups below.

soc.queer.bi: basically the same old soc.bi, minus announcemnts.

soc.queer.bdsm: alt.sex.bondage for those who don't get the alt.sex
heirarchy, with maybe a charter aiming things in more of a social
chat, dealing with stuff, and politics direction, less sex stories.  

soc.queer.transgendered?: Is alt.transgendered big and healthy enough
to need to be "promoted" out of alt?   I know it's there, but not much
more about it.

soc.queer.polyamory?: basically the same old alt.polyamory, "promoted"
out of alt.  Not sure if it fits in .queer.  They sure have a lot of
crosstalk with soc.bi, though.

soc.queer.any others you can think of

****************************************************************************

Those addresses, once again:

          To vote: motssvote@batpc.lonestar.org
       To discuss: kevin@batpc.lonestar.org -or-
                   exukev@exu.ericsson.se
To flame or bitch: /dev/null

________ _________________________________________________________________
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Newsgroups: soc.motss