HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dab@ism.isc.com (David A. Butterfield)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 9 Sep 1992 16:28:38 GMT
Organization: x
NNTP-Posting-Host: change

al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka) writes:
=>.....  My point is that the AA/Twelve-Step programs have worked well
=>for *some* persons who have problems with addiction, but for others
=>the same approach obstructs their recovery.  
=
=No, generally they obstruct their own recovery.

This reminds me of the sort of things some (poor) psychotherepists
say when one of their patients isn't progressing very rapidly:
"Oh, he's a difficult patient."  The question is, who's the patient
and who's the supposed expert?  If a program or a technique doesn't
work on a particular class of people, then it's time to try
something *different* when trying to help those people.

"It is a poor workman who blames his tools."

Dave
-- 
          Magic is the art of assuming a role strongly enough
          that the Universe falls into the complementary role.
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: I WANT A BEER!!!
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:59:53 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <18lv3kINNbje@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka) writes:
>
>In a previous article, maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) says:
>
>>Worry not, world. 
>
>We're not worrying---we have faith!   (don't we?)
>
>>I haven't had one yet.
>
>When was the last time you had *just one*?!?!?
>
>
>-- 
>=======================
>"Endeavor to persevere"
>=======================

Good point.  I have never had *just one*.

Well, tonight I'm having *just six*...

Mark
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: alternative to AA
Date: 15 Sep 1992 17:14:44 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

taylor@hardy.u.washington.edu (Allen D. Taylor) writes:

> I think it's only fair to point out that RR is a for profit corporation and
> Trimpey gets a royalty from the sale of "The Small Book."  This does not
> invalidate his, or it's, claims.  Just mentioned in the interest of full
> disclosure.  This is not hearsay, but from an interview of him on a Seattle
> TV Talk show.

It is not a small point. One of the reasons for the success of AA is
the shunning of money from outside sources and not making money off of
AA members. Even though it hurt terribly in the beginning of the
movement, Bill and Bob refused money except for a small amount from one
philanthopist when they first started. That amount was small because
the philanthropist felt (and rightly so) that money would kill the
organization. Bill and Bob were disappointed, but later came to realize
what a favor this man had done for them. They had learned a valuable
lesson. In the following years, this idea of not making money off of
the AA program has been very strong.

I think the real value of AA is not what we say. The value of the
program is the selfless way in which it is given out. The profit motive
is gone. People just want to help. That is what makes the AA message so
powerful. I remember being in therapy and my therapist (in her well
meaning way) did her best to give me suggestions as to how to get out
of my own way. I listened politely and then promptly forgot it all.
Then one day, she broke that wall and shared a small part of her own
fears and what she did about it. She didn't have to do that. It was so
obviously spontaneous, I was deeply touched. I was sharing the pain of
another human being -- a gift freely given without expectation of
repayment. I listened; I remembered; I did it.

It is the personalness of the AA program that is the miracle and the
reason for its success. It is one drunk talking to another. Simple.
Believable. Powerful.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ken@opusc.csd.scarolina.edu (Ken Sallenger)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Reply-To: ken@bigbird.csd.scarolina.edu
Organization: Univ. of South Carolina, Columbia
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:28:39 GMT



mob writes:

=>> 	...  What am I missing out on by abstaining from alcohol?
=>> 	In my experience, absolutely nothing. 

roman replies:

=>You are missing a lot if you don't have a couple of glasses of good
=>white Burgundy with the shrimp scampi.

	[ is a smiley implied here??? ]

I've had them, thanks just the same.  I've had many good glasses of
wine, and enjoyed them all.

Some days I do miss the glass of wine: a little, not a lot.  Some
days I don't.  Every day, I'm grateful that I have a choice.

For today, I think that I'll be much happier with my club soda.

			K~



P.S.  What the heck, let's be honest.  I've had many good _cases_
of wine.  I've also had many _bad_ ones.

I'd miss what I have today a whole helluva lot more than I miss that
glass of wine (the good one, I mean), if I lost it.

-- 
     Ken Sallenger / ken@bigbird.csd.scarolina.edu 

Happy is the man who knows how to distinguish the real from the unreal, the
eternal from the transient, and the good from the pleasant -- B.K.S. Iyengar
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:44:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.015756.28846@gumby.dsd.trw.com> suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com (Maurice E. Suhre) writes:
>carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
>
>> There's no telling how many thousands of people have
>> gone to AA meetings a few times, been turned off by the religiosity,
>> the irrationality, the self-abasement, the smoke-filled air, and the
>> prospect of endless meetings, and gone back home and poured themselves
>> a tall drink...
>
>I'm feeling silly and I just couldn't let this go by.  I would estimate
>that the majority of people that show up at AA meetings have come their
>via the bar route.  Drunken bar talk probably doesn't have much
>religiosity floating around, but irrationality and smoke-filled air
>about aplenty!
>
>The Southern California area has some smoke free meetings, but I
>wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to what the percentage is.  In any
>event, I would certainly guess that the percentage of smoke free
>meetings is higher than the percentage of smoke free bars :-)
>-- 
>Maurice Suhre
>suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com

Here in Naperville, Il there are more somoke free meetings than there are
smoke filled meetings. Most of the meetings are held in church basements
and for some reason do not want smoking in the meeting. 

In the meetings where they allow smoking, they always have at least one
no smoking table or a separate room that the nonsmokers can go to.

Joni :)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:28:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.230222.7042@zip.eecs.umich.edu> carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
>dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins) writes:
>
>>puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>>>But, you have placed a finger on the sore spot - that drunk who sees the
>>>only choices as AA or continue drinking....but, if his pride is so much
>>>that he chooses drinking, who are we or you to complain?
>>
>>However, it's not just a matter of pride -- it can also be a matter of
>>principal or intellectual honesty.
>
>... or just a weak stomach for religious dogmatism.  Unfortunately,
>the point of view you are replying to is all too typical of AA
>members, in my experience.  Instead of trying to understand why a
>person who is desperate for help would reject the AA program, many AA
>members would blame him for his alleged pride or lack of honesty or
>lack of genuine desire to overcome his addiction.  The program is
>never at fault, only the individual who rejects AA.  I.e., blame the
>victim. 
>
Richard,

You just don't stop!! The only person that I have seen act with a fervent
fanaticism that is anywhere close to religious dogmatism is the way you
continually try to prove that you have solved your drinking problem by
continuing to drink. Richard you seem to find so much wrong with AA
how long were you in it? Why don't you ever talk about the kind of
program that you work? The only thing that I have heard is that you can
get well and continue to drink? 


Joni :)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: rmy@pyuxf.uucp (Robert Yaeger)
Subject: Re: Amends revisited
Organization: bcr.
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 21:30:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.204135.14635@gumby.dsd.trw.com> suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com () writes:
>
>=====Begin post for Adria=====
>I'm really intrigued with all this talk about making ammends and
>resentments and all.  I just have a few questions that I'd like
>answered if anyone can figure them out:

I too wondered why it says that if I have a resentment then I need to make
amends.  I came to this conclusion; that when I have resentments I tend to
act it out. either in passive aggression, or verbal abuse or something.
Hence my need for amends.

-Bob

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: murray@sun13.scri.fsu.edu (John Murray)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:26:38 GMT
Reply-To: murray@sun13.scri.fsu.edu (John Murray)
Followup-To: alt.recovery
Distribution: na
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <1992Sep11.182829.18891@cbfsb.cb.att.com> joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap) writes:
>You just don't stop!! The only person that I have seen act with a fervent
>fanaticism that is anywhere close to religious dogmatism is the way you
>continually try to prove that you have solved your drinking problem by
>continuing to drink.... [etc, etc...]

ALRIGHT ALREADY! Whoever the pinhead is that keeps crossposting between
alt.recovery and talk.politics.drugs, please stop! Cease and Desist!

Continuing arguments about the validity of AA principles and beliefs should
go to alt.recovery. If they try to make AA attendance mandatory by law for
all Right Thinking American Citizens (tm) above the age of 12, then feel free
to crosspost to talk.POLITICS.drugs.

-- 
Disclaimer: Opinions mine. Brainless, knee-jerk reactions are your problem.
John R. Murray murray@vs6.scri.fsu.edu  | Hello, I am a damaged .signature
Supercomputer Computations Research Inst| virus. Copy me into yours, and
Moderator comp.graphics.research        | join in the !rm -rf un *;A#$!&zQ *^P%o
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: barbaraj@csc.ti.com (Heart Dancer)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Reply-To: barbaraj@csc.ti.com
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:08:41 GMT

In article <18ekf5INNmf9@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka) writes:

>> The reason is that some of us, in order to recover and get on with our
>> lives, need to believe the *contrary* of some AA/Twelve-Step tenets.
>> [...]
>> Some of us need to believe that our problem is not having a supposed
>> disease but ........................................................
>> ....................................... that some of us can recover
>> *without* a treatment program or attending meetings, that lifelong
>> abstinence is not necessarily the best goal for every addicted person,
>> and that we are not "alcoholics" (or whatever) in the same permanent
>> sense in which people are diabetics or hemophiliacs.
>> 
> No, you don't NEED to believe these things, you WANT to believe
> them.  Throw out your old way of thinking---that's what got you
> to where you are now.  Experience shows that, if you don't, the
> odds are YOU WILL DRINK AGAIN !!!

Somewhere in AA dogma (I'm sure many of you know exactly where!) is the 
thought about the easier, softer way availed us nothing.  What I hear
Richard saying is that for some people, the easier, softer way worked.
I think I am one of those people.  There was a time in the late
seventies/early eighties when I was very depressed and sought relief
in alcohol.  I was also abusing prescription drugs.  

There were occasions that I drove when I had no business driving;
there was one memorable Christmas when I was very sick from a
hangover, my brother was very sick from a hangover, my Dad had the
flu, and my mother was just plain pissed.  She told my brother and I
not to bother coming to her house in that condition again.  

I think that if I had been around the program then, I might very well
have labeled myself an alcoholic.  What happened instead is that I
gradually started drinking less and less, first when I was going to be
driving (thanks to MADD, SADD, etc), then more and more even when I
wasn't.  Because of work I was doing in therapy, and because of the
spiritual growth I was experiencing, I learned to deal with the
depressive episodes in much more effective manners.  Because I learned
to relax and meditate, I learned to deal with stress in much more
effective manners, and my desire to drink lessened.  

Now when I drink, it is always a social occasion, even if that means a
special evening with myself :-).

Some of you may say that because I was able to stop drinking on my
own, gradually, and because I can drink an occasional drink without
going on a bender, that I'm not an alcoholic, but I think you would
have thought differently if you had been hanging out with me 10-12
years ago.

BJ
 
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
                                        Emma Goldman

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: rmy@pyuxf.uucp (Robert Yaeger)
Subject: Re: No Cigarettes
Organization: bcr.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 14:53:21 GMT

I quit smoking 8 months ago and am *still* going through purification.  What I
do when the thoughts of smoking come up (which they have recently) is to remind
myself I don't want "a" cigarette, I want about 10,000.  

-Bob


Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: burgoyne@access.digex.com (J. Robert Burgoyne)
Subject: Re: No Cigarettes
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:27:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.145321.25630@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> rmy@pyuxf.uucp (Robert Yaeger) writes:
>I quit smoking 8 months ago and am *still* going through purification.  What I
>do when the thoughts of smoking come up (which they have recently) is to remind
>myself I don't want "a" cigarette, I want about 10,000.  

Good for you for stopping for 8 months.

They say that the detoxification of your body takes one month for every year
that you inserted the toxins.

When I was cleaning out, I kept wondering why I didn't feel too much better,
either physically or mentally. Changes are very subtle and slow for most folks.

Again, I applaud you for going nicotine free, the best of luck in staying 
that way.

Robert Burgoyne
From: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: I WANT A BEER!!!
Date: 13 Sep 1992 05:32:38 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) says:

>Good point.  I have never had *just one*.
>
>Well, tonight I'm having *just six*...

Well, how was it?

-- 
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
From: kaplanj@EMUNIX.EMICH.EDU (Jeffrey Kaplan)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Recovery groups in Greensboro, NC
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:19:01 GMT

A friend of mine recently moved out to Greensboro, NC and is suffering
some depression related to a dysfunctional childhood.  Are 
there any recovery groups in the area that she could get in touch with?
I'm thinking perhaps of Adult Children of Alcoholics groups, or 
support groups for people whose loved ones have committed suicide.

Please mail info to Jeff.Kaplan@um.cc.umich.edu or kaplanj@emunix.emich.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:25:50 GMT

carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:

>Absolutely -- but you apparently believe that alcoholics need to give
>up thinking as well as drinking. 

Yep!

>                                    Many problem drinkers would be
>better off learning new ways of thinking.

No debate there!

But, you have placed a finger on the sore spot - that drunk who sees the
only choices as AA or continue drinking....but, if his pride is so much
that he chooses drinking, who are we or you to complain?

love and service,
jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
i need to ask myself.....
***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********
From: wagner@ike.ucdavis.edu (John Wagner)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Amends revisited
Date: 9 Sep 92 06:35:01 GMT
Reply-To: wagner@ike.ucdavis.edu
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article AA09759@clearwater.cs.uidaho.edu, weiss872@CLEARWATER.CS.UIDAHO.EDU (Phil Weiss) writes:

>Making amends isn't about apologizing.  It isn't about saying
>"I'm sorry."  What making amends is about is about changing
>behaviors which get us in trouble.

When I first started working amends, I was told that I had
done run out of "I'm sorry."

>Amends is about changing behavior, not saying sorry.

Don't have my book with me today, but doesn't the tenth step
say something about "continued to take personal inventory,
and when we were WRONG PROMPTLY ADMITTED IT?"  I often look
at what a step DOESN'T say, in this case it doesn't say
"continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong
promptly said we were sorry."

Yes, for me amends mean admitting my wrongdoing and then changing
the behaviors.

---
John Wagner
Institute of Theoretical Dynamics
University of California, Davis

Bush/Quayle 1992: Saddam has a job, do you?

My opinions aren't even mine, much less those of anyone else...
+------------------------------------+----------------------------+
| jmwagner@ucdavis.edu               | Wenn Du meinen Quelltext   |
| jmwagner@ucdavis                   | verstehen kannst, bist Du  |
| {ucbvax, lll-crg}!ucdavis!jmwagner | mir einen Schritt voraus!  |
+------------------------------------+----------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Amends revisited
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:02:52 GMT

rmy@pyuxf.uucp (Robert Yaeger) writes:

>In article <1992Sep8.204135.14635@gumby.dsd.trw.com> suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com () writes:
>>
>>=====Begin post for Adria=====
>>I'm really intrigued with all this talk about making ammends and
>>resentments and all.  I just have a few questions that I'd like
>>answered if anyone can figure them out:

>I too wondered why it says that if I have a resentment then I need to make
>amends.  I came to this conclusion; that when I have resentments I tend to
>act it out. either in passive aggression, or verbal abuse or something.
>Hence my need for amends.

I think it works this way..


If I have a resentment, then I 
	A. Feel shitty
	B. Am cut off from the Sunlight of the Spirit, and the insanity 
	of alcohol will return, and I will drink again, and die.

The Fourth through Ninth steps allow me to clear away this resentment. If 
I choose not to make amends, then I will keep the resentment.

I'v found this to be true. I may not walk around _thinking_ that I have
the resentment, but whenever I see the person involved, or think about
them in a certain context, that old resentment comes back.

So if you have a justified resetnment, forget those silly old amends! You
have and absolute _right_ to be a miserable, angry person courting a 
drink! 8-)

(truth is, I have enough resentments even when I am _willing_ to make
amends, and _do_ make the amend, because somewhere something gets left
out or confused. I ain't willing to be unwilling !)


love and service,
jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
i need to ask myself.....
***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: barbaraj@csc.ti.com (Heart Dancer)
Subject: Re: No dogma (was AA beliefs)
Reply-To: barbaraj@csc.ti.com
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:27:27 GMT

In article <9209142114.AA03982@mdcsc>, mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera) writes:
>> I've been reading alt.recovery on the subject of AA. beliefs. Several
>> posters have mentioned AA dogma. There is no AA dogma. It doesn't
>> exist. AA is an individual program. If some individual thinks dogma is
>> appropriate for himself, he gets it from some other source like a
>> church.
>> 
>>   Dogma  - noun: A doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or
>>            morals formally stated and authoritively proclaimed by a 
>>            church.
>> 
>> AA is not a church. There is no established doctrine concerning faith
>> or morals. Nothing is stated authoritively. No dogma. Some betters
>> words would be program, objectives, goals, or actions. No dogma.

The dictionary on my desk has this definition (word for word) as the
*second* definition.  The first definition reads:

	something held as an established opinion; esp. a definitive
	authoritative tenet.

Seems to me that is quite easy to describe parts of the *A programs as
dogma, under this definition.  

BJ
 
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
                                        Emma Goldman

From: kasey@trsvax.tandy.com
Date: 08 Sep 92 09:30 CDT
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Step Nine
Message-ID: <1227267297@trsvax>
Nf-ID: #R:<5pknb=n.dhawk@netcom.com>:-26:trsvax:1227267297:000:1129
Nf-From: trsvax.tandy.com!kasey    Sep  8 09:30:00 1992


During my first pass through the 12 steps, it was brought to my attention that
making amends can also mean finding forgiveness for someone who has hurt you,
not only "seeking forgiveness" from those you have hurt. I thought about this
one long and hard and processed through forgiving my ex for all the pain that
he had caused me. In doing so, I was forced to evaluate my own behavior, how I
responded to some of his pain causing actions, how I fueled them and paved
the way for more, how I set myself up for them. I wrote him a letter (never 
mailed it of course!) asking for his forgiveness and forgave him for the pain 
he caused me. He is an active alcoholic and direct amends was not possible.

That was my first major step in recovery. Unloading that anger, pain, and 
guilt was so freeing and energizing. I had NO idea how much energy is takes
to let the pain and anger continue. Since then, I have processed backwards
through my life forgiving others for the pain they have caused me. Each time
I find forgiveness, I find new energy to continue in recovery that I didn't
know existed.

Thanks for letting me share,
Kathy

Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs