HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pete@Panda1.UOttawa.CA (Peter Hickey)
Subject: Re: If You get Lost
Organization: Computing & Comm. Services, University of Ottawa
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 09:50:08 GMT

Three things:
	1) Nice, Hal.  Thanks!
	2) about finding north by the moss on trees.  It doesn't work
	   too good in the NorthEast.  At least for me.
	3) The most important.  When do you *know* you're lost?

I've been 'a bit confused' a few times, but have always gotten
re-oriented within a few minutes.  What if it takes me 10 minutes?
What if its a half hour?  When do I stop trying and admit I'm
lost?

-Pete
-- 
Pete Hickey               | Pete@mudhead.uottawa.CA | "If a vegetarian eats
Communication Services    |   or (if desperate)     |  vegatables, then what
University of Ottawa      | petehic@uottawa.bitnet  |  does a humanitarian
Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 564-7646         |  eat?"
From: tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: yosemite tips wanted
Date: 6 Apr 92 22:00:30 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

In article <1992Apr2.225212.18011@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> foxjo@ei.ecn.purdue.edu (John S Fox) writes:
>tpodelny@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Ted Podelnyk) writes:
>>Having passed through the park two years ago, I was utterly disgusted by the
>>crowds.  I personally will never to there again, and recommend to everyone I
>>know not to go their either.
>
>It seems many rec.backcountry people are under the assumption that the 
>only way to enjoy the outdoors is if you're by yourself.  Although that 
>may be many people's personal preference, don't assume everyone is like 
>that.
>
>I happen to enjoy seeing lots of people when I hike.  As a group, people
>in the backcountry are the friendliest I come across.  On a typical trip
>up Half Dome I will have a number of great conversations with people.  In
>fact I can spend almost the entire day talking to people I've never met
>before.  
>
>It's dangerous to assume everyone participates in activities for the same 
>reason you do.  It's unfortunate that life isn't perfect and there isn't
>a replicated personal Yosemite for everyone who wants the solitude, and 
>a public Yosemite for those of us who enjoy the people, but we all know life
>is far from perfect.  
>
>The trick is to create a situation where the majority of the people 
>(present and future) are satisfied.  I think the future is what many people
>tend to ignore.  Tough for someone from 300 years in the future to speak 
>out against what we're doing today!
>
>John Fox
>foxjo@ecn.purdue.edu


--
	Tom Trebisky	ttrebisky@as.arizona.edu
From: karld@caen.engin.umich.edu (Karl Diederich)
Subject: Re: Pacific Coast Trail in N Cascades
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 08:26:17 EDT
Organization: U of Michigan
Distribution: na

In article <1992Apr15.133633.24051@space.physics.uiowa.edu>, rlm@sunlight.Physics.UIowa.Edu (Robert Mutel) writes:
> 
> I am planning a 5-6 day solo trek in early August from roughly the Canadian border to the Glacier
> Peak area in the northern Cascades, probably mostly along the Pacific Coast Trail.
> I'd like to talk to anyone who has been on that section, and solicit advice on
> maps, books, or other relevant information.
> 

Robert,

I assume you mean the Pacific *Crest* Trail (why do so many call 
it the Pacific Coast Trail?)  I hiked the segment to which you 
refer in the second half of October last year (1991).  I used the 
Wilderness Press Guidebooks, in this case: Pacific Crest Trail 
Volume Two: Oregon and Washington.  They are quite detailed.  
Check your local bookstore.  You can also order from the company:
   Wilderness Press
   2440 Bancroft Way
   Berkeley CA 94704
The guidebook also has addresses of agencies in charge of the 
areas through which the trail goes.  Resupply point can be done at 
Stehekin if desired, but there is little more than tourist 
supplies.  Mail a parcel to yourself if you intend to use 
Stehekin.  Your trip sounds short enough that the ten mile detour 
would not be worth it.  Entry/exit point at south end will 
probably be Kennedy Hot Springs.  Up to date information (trail 
conditions, etc) can be obtained form:
   The Pacific Crest Trail Conference
   365 West 29th Ave
   Eugene, OR  97405
   (503) 686-1365
Membership is inexpensive, helps a very good cause, and they put 
out a nice newsletter.  August should be a good time of year.  
There is no problem hiking into Canada at the end of your hike, so 
long as you do not extend your stay past a few days to return to 
the US.

Karl.  PCT 91.
From: kevin@diasonx.UUCP (Kevin Harms)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Outdoor gear - Mud
Date: 16 Apr 92 16:03:46 GMT
Reply-To: kevin@diasonx.UUCP (Kevin Harms)
Organization: Diasonics Inc. -- Milpitas, California

In article <9204061903.AA16654@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes:
>hightech-fabric raingear, etc. There is one outdoor condition, though,
>for which I am unaware of any available specialized footwear or
>clothing: deep mud. I'm talking suck-your-boots-off seas of mud,
...
>Is there *anything* out there currently manufactured that will enable an
>individual on foot to progress through such an environment? The nearest
...

How about hip waders. You know, those things that fly fishermen use to
wade out into rivers.  Some have built in suspenders which would help
hold them on when traversing through the mud.  And they usually have
a slick surface which would discourage the mud from sticking.  Then
when your ready to use them try spraying the outer surface with 'wet'
silicone lubricant to help repel the mud (just a suggestion, I've 
never tried it). 

---------------------------
Kevin Harms, {bridge2|cygnet}!diasonx!kevin, kevin@diasonx
"There cannot be a crisis next week.  My schedule is already full.
			  -- Henry Kissinger
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: fittery@arcturus.amasd.anatcp.rockwell.com (Elmer Fittery)
Subject: Catalina and other islands
Organization: Rockwell International
Distribution: ca
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 22:11:16 GMT

Does anybody have information about camping on catalina or the
other islands off the coast of southern california.  Has anybody
had experiences with doing it (camping at said locations)?

Thanks in advance.
From: mstone@teda.Teradyne.COM (Michelle Stone)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Backpacking Entertainment
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:10:26 GMT

>> part we have inexperienced group.  This is our final project for the
>> class are we are in need of some ideas for "fun" activities.  The main
>> thing I am looking for are activities or games that could be done on the
>> trip that relate to leadership or organizations.  Also, if you have any
>> suggestions as of fun games to play in general.


One of the things that I like to do (even though it is not a game) is 
to make a soup or stew from stuff everybody brings.  Every person
contributes something to make it.  It usually turns out better than
expected.  If it turns out great, use it as a lesson in teamwork.  
If it turns out fowl, use it as a lesson in poor planning.

Michelle
From: scochran@hpmwtd.HP.COM (Steve Cochran)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:34:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Outdoor Research Products
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (NMD MTA MWTD). - Santa Rosa, Ca.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

  I second the response.  I have to replace my pair of OR Crocodiles (ordinary
gaiters) every two years because the threads which attach the underboot strap
to the gaiter proper fray and eventually break.  Also the velcro closure on
the front of the gaiter eventually breaks loose.  
   Up to now REI has been good about just giving me a new pair when the old 
pair croaks.  But I don't like what my experience says about the quality of 
the OR product or its reliability when I'm on an extended trip.

SC
From: parsavan@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Dara Parsavand)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Helicopter Access
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:41:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: colorado.1992Apr13.204142.24465
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Apr13.175552.6149@tc.fluke.COM> lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog) writes:
>Kurt Diemberger speaks of a "barrier of fatigue" that is needed to
>preserve wilderness. 

Not a bad idea.  In the U.S. and Canada, there are already plenty of
areas where people can drive to beautiful vistas and if they choose
take short hikes from their car in all sorts of different types of
terrain.  So I completely deny that any restrictions to helicopters
will adversely affect people who don't wish to bushwack 20 miles a day
for a week. 

If I go into a wilderness area (areas such as U.S. National Forest and 
National Park Wilderness), I go there to get away from all 
mechanized travel, and this certainly includes helicopters.  (I don't 
think it is allowed for helicopters to land except in an emergency)  I 
would take it quite a bit further if I was in charge and limit all air 
corridors over wilderness areas (ever try for some peace and quiet in 
canyon country only to fall asleep to endless flights echoing off the 
canyon walls).  On the other hand, I don't think all outdoor areas 
should be wilderness (although there should be a lot more than now) and 
helicopter access may have a place in the Selkirks, etc.  as long as I 
cand find a place, say the Bugaboos, which would  be off limits.  If this 
means everbody can't go climb Mt Waddington, so be it.

dara parsavand        how about an "inter-parkservice" train network?
From: lasala@cs.cornell.edu (Steve LaSala)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: If You get Lost
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:38:26 GMT
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853

In article <1992Apr16.192256.6081@spectrum.xerox.com> damouth@wrc.xerox.com writes:
>
>[story of getting lost and found again]
>
>By noon, we were back to a known point.  We had lost a lot of energy
>and about 36 hours off our travel plan, causing us to abort much of the
>loop we had planned.  But we were able to enjoy the remaining couple of
>days and return on time.  In retrospect, it was an interesting and
>informative adventure.

	This paragraph is very important.  The more I venture into the
backcountry, the more I become convinced that what goes on inside your
head is the important part.  If you keep in mind that the point is to
*enjoy* and *return*, the trip is more likely to be interesting and
informative than otherwise, whether you find the portage, scale the peak,
make the distance, or not.

	I recently went on a group trip with a guide/instructor and found
that the most useful and interesting thing I learned was how he thought about
goals.  He said, "The goal is not to get to the top of the mountain and ski
open bowls full of powder (although that would be nice).  The goal is to
have fun and be back here at the trailhead by 3:30 Sunday, without injuries.
If we make all our decisions with that in mind, we'll have a good trip."

	As it happened, we didn't ski the open bowls because of avalanche
hazard, but we had a good trip and were back on time.
From: mike@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mike McNelly)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:52:09 GMT
Subject: Re: tent (?) question
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

> Tents have CHANGED since 1974, course so has the rain fly.  Personnally,
> I HATE flying things and ticks.  When you couple that with rabies getting
> out of control in PA, NJ, and NY, the idea of sleeping in the
> open is less appealing as well. 
> 
> Anyway, in 74 most tents were canvas, and heavy.  Today's tents are made
> from nylon and ripstop plastic and don't weigh much.  Now, most of the
> weight is in the poles, so I'm considering going to the low tech end
> of the tent spectrum, and use an el cheapo 5x7 pup tent, and my hiking
> stick for the pole.  The problem with the cheap tent is that it has 
> no ventalation in wet weather, so I'll through in a 10 x 10
> nylon fly (weighs just over a pound).  This way, I don't have a lot
> of weight, but am protected from rain and bugs.
> 
> Marc

A small nit:  1974 wasn't THAT long ago.  Most new tents in the 1960's
onward have been made from nylon of various quality. I think Colin
Fletcher had nylon tents in mind when he made his recommendations.

Unless you're in an area where bugs or blowing dust are a problem or you
can see that you're in for a night of rain, try sleeping on a ground
cloth without a tent, perhaps leaving enough free ground cloth to pull
over the sleeping bag to avoid morning dew.  You'll probably find that
you won't die or be carried off by anything and the experience can be
magnificent.  If you're concerned about a nighttime rainstorm, set up a
tent but sleep outside; you can crawl into the tent on a moment's
notice.

Many people are concerned about creepy crawlies sharing their bed at
night.  I've never had any problems in that regard in 25 years of
sleeping outside (in the morning, though, do shake out your boots before
putting them on).  The outdoors is the natural environment for critters;
they don't generally make excessively bad choices about where they bed
down.

Mike McNelly
mike@fc.hp.com
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Where is Salinas?
Date: 3 Apr 92 22:56:00 GMT
Distribution: usa

East of Eden!    <8^)

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,pdx.forsale
From: daven@mentorg.com (David Nilsen)
Subject: For Sale: TNF "Westwind" Tent
Originator: daven@daven
Organization: engr
Distribution: or
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 01:40:12 GMT


For Sale:  The North Face "Westwind" Tent.

This is a light (5 lb., 14 oz.), 2-person, 4+ season, bombproof tent.
It is 1 year old, and is in excellent shape.  I'm selling it primarily
because it's just a bit too heavy for solo backpacking.

Price: $175.00

Please contact me via e-mail if you're interested.

-- 
David Nilsen
Mentor Graphics Corporation
8005 SW Boeckman Rd., Wilsonville, OR 97070-7777
daven@mentorg.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: leonam@vccsouth19.its.rpi.edu (Marcus B. Leonard)
Subject: Waterproofing Leather Boots
Followup-To: mail
Summary: what do other people use?
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 20:05:26 GMT

This may start another religious war, but I am curious:

What do people recommend for waterproofing leather hiking boots?  I have at
various times been told "Don't use mink oil, it breaks down the leather.  Use
Sno Seal", and "Don't use Sno Seal, it rots the stitching.  Use Beeswax" (I
though Sno Seal *was* beeswax).

So, if you have any knowledge or opinions on either of the above statements,
or better yet have something original to add, please send e-mail.  I will
post a summary.

				Marc Leonard
				leonam@rpi.edu
From: alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Alan S. Mazer)
Subject: Whistles don't work (Re: If You get Lost)
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 23:18:46 GMT

In article <92107.100654ACROWSON@ESOC.BITNET> ACROWSON@ESOC.BITNET writes:
>One brief comment from the European perspective: in Britain and the alpine
>countries, I have always learnt that the "universal" distress signal is SIX
>whistle blasts, flashes etc. (this should be repeated at one-minute
>intervals). The _rescuers_ should answer this with three whatevers.

Sorry, I slept through the beginning of this thread, but on my last backpack 
I actually tried using my whistle a couple times to signal to people with me
and found out (much to my surprise) that although my ears were ringing
afterward, they, 15 minutes away, never heard me.  I repeated this several
times.  This calls into serious question the value of having a whistle in
my opinion.  I can't imagine a mirror being of much use there either, given
the terrain, although I could perhaps have used one with aircraft.
-- 

-- Alan
   alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: tfschli@sf180.PacBell.COM (Tim Schlink)
Subject: Re: If You get Lost
Organization: Pacific Bell - Financial Management
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 20:40:39 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.160038.24097@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> 
mpb@troy.uucp (27331-bunz) writes:

>Good question.  From a practical stand point, I'd hope that we 
>could get a universal agreement to THREE.  While blowing a 
>whistle isn't that taxing, if you want to really give it your 
>all, I'd think you might start to hyperventilate going for six 
>blows in fast succession.

I was lost once and tried using patterns of three.  It didn't work 
though....I ran out of arrows before anyone found me.  8-)

-- 
Tim Schlink:	                 pbseps!tfschli@PacBell.COM
180 New Montgomery, Room 550, San Francisco, CA 94105
Voice:  (415) 542-2735  ***ALL DISCLAIMERS APPLY!!***
From: kalam@usc.edu (Kamran Alam)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Trail map of California
Date: 10 Apr 1992 21:38:32 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: alcor.usc.edu

Dear netters,

	Where can i find the most "complete and recent" maps of the
hiking trails in CALIFORNIA ? Any suggestions would be greatly 
appreciated.

Thanks
                                     SCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCS 
kamran alam                          CSCS        CSCS        C  
university of SOUTHERN CALifornia    SCS   SCSCS SCS   SCSC CS
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~           CSC       CSCS   SCSCSCSC
E-Mail: kalam@usc.edu                S SCSCS   SCS   SCSC CSCS
                                     C        SCS        CSCSC
                                     SCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCSCS
From: lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Helicopter Access (was: Alaskan Heliskiing)
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:55:52 GMT
Reply-To: lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog)
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

Jim Isbell writes:
>
>Lowell Skoog writes:
>>
>>Do people who have heli-skied (or heli-hiked) ever have doubts
>>about the practice?
>
>I can understand your concern but you have to understand "wilderness" in
>Washington and Colorado and even British Columbia is a little different
>than it is here.

I understand the difference in scale between Alaskan wilderness and
that in the lower forty-eight states.  I'm not condeming the use of
helicopters, just raising questions about it.

I have used helicopters myself in the Cascades, BC Coast Range, and
Selkirks.  A friend of mine used a helicopter last spring to approach
the Devil's Thumb.  Both my friend and I have felt misgivings about
it.

Helicopters don't extend the limits of the possible really, but they
greatly alter the style of a trip.  Fifty years ago climbers
approached Mt. Waddington by bushwacking from the sea.  Thirty years
ago, they hiked from Tellot Lake after landing in a float plane.
Today, they land right on the glacier in a helicopter.  I've done it
myself.  The Coast Mountains have become a smaller place because of
helicopters.

Kurt Diemberger speaks of a "barrier of fatigue" that is needed to
preserve wilderness.  Europeans like Diemberger, who long ago lost
the wilderness in their home countries, look to places like Canada
and Alaska to preserve it.  I don't want to lock people out of the
wilderness.  I don't even want to eliminate helicopters.  But I
wonder whether it is a good thing to use them as much as we do.

In the Coast Mountains, Don Serl and others have sometimes
compromised by flying in and walking out.  I have considered limiting
my air support to float or ski planes.  This would allow me to enter
deep wilderness, but would put limits on just how close I could get
to a particular objective.

I'm interested in other views on this subject.  Notice that I've
directed follow-ups to rec.backcountry.

                                        --Lowell Skoog
                                          Seattle, Washington, USA
From: Ecology Center Fund <ecologycntr@igc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Date: 15 Apr 92 08:54 PDT
Subject: Re: clip flashlight
Nf-ID: #R:1992Apr13.223208.14935@phx.mcd.m:-2078144828:cdp:1449600006:000:154
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!ecologycntr    Apr 15 08:54:00 1992


The clip flashlight has plastic clips which hold the poles.  Much faster and
easier to put up than with sleeves, especially in the dark/rain/wind.

chris
From: kemasa@ipld01.hac.com (Kemasa)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Backpacking Entertainment
Date: 17 Apr 92 17:17:52 GMT
Organization: Natural Order Nature Experiments (N.O.N.E.)

In article <1992Apr13.153710.8591@advtech.uswest.com> cole@maverick ( Cole Keirsey) writes:
>Here's a simple word game that is good for a group of campers.  One
>player offers a clue.  Whoever guesses the answer gets to offer the
>next clue, or pass leaving the opportunity open to anyone.
>...

I just remembered another game, but I forget the name. Also I was
wondering if anyone know about it and can provide me with more
"games" (I am not sure of how to word this, but more lines to
play with).

The basic idea is that one person says a line and the others ask
questions which are answered either yes or no (or not relevant if
you want to save time). The idea is to figure out what happened
or the story behind it based on the limited information.

Example: There is a dead person lying on the side of the road with
a pack on.

The questions begin and you try to figure out how the person died
and why they are there, etc. Not all of them involve dead people.
-- 



						 Kemasa.

The best defense is insanity.

Sierra Club Leader	NRA Life Member		Pro-freedom

e-mail address: kemasa@ipld01.hac.com
From: stgprao@xing.unocal.com (Richard Ottolini)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Grand Canyon backcountry permits
Keywords: permits, Grand Canyon
Date: 15 Apr 92 00:42:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Unocal Corporation, Anaheim, California
Originator: stgprao@xing

In article <1992Apr14.223102.10200@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> wade@osiris (S.Wade) writes:
>
>I will be hiking in Grand Canyon National Park soon.  Via mail
>I asked for a backcountry permit to backpack down to the river
>at Phantom Ranch and camp there.  I asked about two months ago,
>and was told that there were no more available permits for the time
>I will be there.
>
>I understand that I needed to make the reservation much sooner, but it
>was a spur of the moment decision and I have already bought the plane
>tickets.

Well, I am driving up Thursday night and hoping to pick up a remnant permit
Friday morning.  I have never been turned down in the past three times
I've done this (usually during Easter week), but there are no guarantees.
The most popular places- Indian Gardens and Phantom Ranch- are filled,
but any corner of the canyon is pretty to me.
The rangers sometimes won't issue permits to parties of one or two without
prior experience in the Canyon.

Previous posts have discussed the penalties of going permitless.
There are both risks and chances one may not get caught.
I'll probably switch to dayhikes if I don't get a permit, but I've been down
many times already.

For the novice in the canyon, beware of the trip down.  A several hour downhill
is when people mess up their feet and knees, particularly if you aren't used
to your pack or shoes.   This can make the rest of the hike miserable.
Also be prepared for snow and ice on top.  The rim is 8000' mountain altitude
in late winter now.