From: jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph E. Beck)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: house-rules
Date: 12 Oct 92 01:11:06 GMT
	<BvvCqx.BJz@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


This is a bunch of RE:'s.  It's fairly long but summarizes the 
debate about switching cleric and thief combat abilities:


From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (SilverFang Ahroun)
>Well, the "cleric" is based on a Knight Templar idea. I'd say they
>could easily spank a thief
Yes, we've all ready the official description of what a cleric is.
What the thread is concerned with (imo) is game balance.  The cleric
can spank the thief, and has spells, and has better saves.  This led
us (in our group) to swap cleric and thief attacks and hit dice.


> My suggestion
>for those thieves that want more combat capability is to build their
>own character class with the optional rules, and use the fighter 
>THAC0 and the d6 hit die.
These rules are broken, and take a moderate amount of work to create a
balanced class (and some GMs don't want to deal with the headaches).  


From: joeg@meaddata.com (Joe Gayda)

>Although many of the thief's skills can be duplicated through spells,
>no other class can REMOVE mechanical traps.
Really, can't mages do spell research to create such a spell?
Alternately, use an unseen servant to spring the trap.  What?  The
the trap is sprung by weight?  Have your unseen servant move rocks to
the appropriate area, etc.

> Most magical traps, the
>thief has 1/2 his Find and Remove Traps percentage as the chance for
>success.
This is my other problem:  magic > thief abilities 


>Class  LEVEL THAC0   ---- % chance of spell failure ----
>                     5th     6th     7th     8th    9th
>--------------------------------------------------------
>Thief   10    16     25%     25%     25%     25%    25%
>Mage     9    18      0%     15%     25%     35%    45%
>Fighter  8    13      NA      NA      NA      NA     NA
>Cleric   8    16      5%     15%     30%      NA     NA
Ok, so you're 10th level thief is better than the mage at reading 8th
and 9th level scrolls.  2 questions:  how often does this come into
play?  And if your party found an eigth level scroll would they let
the thief read it (I certainly wouldn't).  Most groups I've seen find
relatively few scrolls.

>AND if he is fighting from behind, he is ONLY one worse than the fighter. 
I disagree.  Ok, you're thief got behind them and backstabs.  Now
they're pissed off and clobber you.  You have a worse AC than the
cleric, have less hit points, and don't save as well.  Sure, for the
instant you spring you're surprise you're mondo, but then you're meat.

  
> Since no other class provides this amount of versatility, I think
>  high level thiefs are exceedingly fun.  Of course, I've yet to have
>  a character live past 7th or 8th level...
I think even low level thieves are exceedingly fun, but not very
powerful.  If you're in a campaign where scrolls (and spell books)
flow freely, then there ability to read scrolls looks interesting (but
25% of harmful backfires is very painful). 

I still contend the thief isn't as effective in combat as the cleric
(you're severely underestimating the 25% of backfire, and assuming
loads of scrolls are available).  Nor is he as effective as the mage
in or out of combat.  A  9th level mage with good spell selection can be
an incredible fighter, or an awesome thief, depending on the need. 


 From: aaron@juliet.caltech.edu (Packman, Aaron I.)
>Adventuring priests are all supposed to be from military religious orders.
>That is, the they're knights of the church (read as: head smashers). 
... 
> One way to split the priest class is to let the
>fighter/priest be the same as the current "standard" priest and let
>the prayer-priest have extra spells,
Again, the issue isn't what TSR intended clerics to be, but game
balance.  

I'll briefly restate:

Thieves can't fight as well as clerics in hand to hand.
Thieves have worse saving throws than clerics.
Thieves have no spell ability (yes, they can use scrolls at 10th level
but in the campaigns I've been in scrolls are moderately rare, and the
thief has a 25% of being hosed in any event)
Thief abilities can be emulated/beaten by magic.
Thieves can't take as much punishment as clerics in combat.
Thieves have worse ACs than clerics

On the plus side:
They're fun.  The problem I had last time I played one is that I
reached 6th level (most people were 5th), and felt I was becoming
utterly ineffective.  I'd watch the clerics bash heads in combats with
their weapons and spells.  The mages provided incredible fire support
(emphasis on 'fire'), the fighters were still fairly effective; I was
stuck being bored.  Outside of combat I was moderately effective but
the mages and clerics were getting to the point where they didn't need
me anymore (I'll cast invisibility, the cleric casts detect traps, I
knock the door open, etc).  The campaign ended and I explained my 
frustrations to manother player (about my being useless) and his
comment was "yeah, why did we keep you around?".  I like playing
characters who can make an impact, but was at a loss for what to do...  

Can use their (pathetic) abilities over and over.  A 1st level human
thief with an 16 DEX can have a max ability around 50% in 2
abilities, and around 20% in the rest.  Wow.  a 50% of picking a lock.
This is while you're mage is casting sleep and you're cleric is
bashing heads and healing everyone afterward.  But, they *can* use
their abilities at will... (an amusing note is that thieves get less
points than they did in 1st edition, and start with less points too).

Can use cleric/mage scrolls (with a 25% chance of being hosed)


	joe
(sorry for the length of this)