HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Slartibartfast)
Subject: Re: My new Saturn in the shop for new transmission
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:58:12 GMT

In article <13872@texsun.Central.Sun.COM> dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM writes:
>>>	Oh, one more thing, $1700 in pure profit?  What about overhead?
>
>	I think the reference is to the fact that the Car Book, for one, 
>	shows that the typical markup from dealer cost to sticker for
>	a Saturn is 17%.  This is much higher than for other cars in
>	the same size/price category, which average closer to 10% and under.
>	Thus, the "no dicker sticker" rap serves the Saturn dealer quite well.
>
>		Dave

	Since Saturns are very price competetive in their class (and chock
full 'o' features, too), that extra profit is well deserved...  You can't
say that a comparably equipped Saturn and Civic are that much apart in price,
and in my experiences this summer, the Saturn ended up about $100 cheaper than
the Civic.  (SL1 vs Dx sedan)  Similar eq. levels...


-- 
"The Clergy Dazzle us with Heaven or they Damn us into Hell"  Billy Bragg!!!!!
IIIII  L    L    IIIII NNNNN IIIII   Chintan Amin c-amin1@uiuc.edu DEPT of E.E.
  I    L    L      I   N   N   I   RUSH	YES FLOYD METALLICA PEARLJAM REM PG
IIIII  LLLL LLLL IIIII N   N IIIII   GO TARHEELS  GO CAPITALS GO COWBOYS 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: davel@ampex.com (Dave Larkins)
Subject: Re: Ford kicked my ass in court
Organization: Ampex Corporation, Redwood City CA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:38:05 GMT

In article <20NOV199215411096@csa3.lbl.gov> jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>In article <1ejgh8INN1l5@armory.centerline.com>, jimf@centerline.com 
>(Jim Frost) writes...
>
>>This is only partially true.  If you find the name and address of
>>several real live people in responsible positions -- particularly if
>>one or more is the boss of the others -- and you send copies of the
>>letter to all of them (indicating names in a Cc: at the bottom)...
>>particularly if you hit people at several different levels...
>
>Speaking as a professional writer and as a minor bureaucrat in a large
>organization (though hopefully an organization that is on the side of
>the angels :), I heartily endorse this advice.  As Jim points out, the
>recipient doesn't dare "lose" or ignore a letter that someone, especially
>his or her boss, might inquire about later on.  Send it to multiple,
>specific people and you've got a fighting chance that it will become 
>the "action item" of someone important enough to be useful.
>

This sounds like a pretty good idea and certainly worth a few stamps. If 
someone has a list of names and addresses of such a heirachy within Ford,
I will resubmit my original letter to these individuals.

thanks		davel@ampex.com
From: anniey@ocf.berkeley.edu (Annie H. Yip)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Win Money!!!
Date: 16 Nov 92 09:13:25 GMT
Distribution: ucb
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility


                            BA169 PRESENTS
               
                      "Geo-Logical Gold Rush"

                  Win $350 and other great prizes.

              Tuesday, November 17, 1992, 10 am - 4 pm.

                           Lower Sproul Plaza
From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: When is leasing BETTER than buying?
Date: 18 Nov 1992 19:26:43 GMT
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.239.3.202

a725911@bugs.mc.ti.com (Dave DesRoches) writes:
>First off - let me apologize; my question has the look of a FAQ, but I 
>scanned the group and couldn't find one, nor an answer to this question.

>My girlfriend has an '88 Jetta which she's dying to get rid of - constantly 
>in need of repairs (which I'm finding to be common among VW owners I've 
>talked to).  She drives roughly 23K miles per year and we're considering 
>buying vs. leasing.  I've heard that in instances where mileage is high, 
>that leasing can sometimes be attractive - though I've seen some lease terms 
>where there are charges for mileage over some limit.

>Can anyone boil this down to simple terms?  How are sales tax and excise tax 
>handled on leased cars (she's from RI)?  Can (some) lease expenditures be 
>written off on taxes?  Are rates different on financing a leased vs. 
>purchased vehicle?  etc...etc...

In general it's cheaper to lease if you don't plan to keep your car at
least three years.  A lot of people I know like to change their cars
every two years or so, which is quite expensive.  A lease with a lower
monthly payment than a new car is generally a win in this situation.
For longer terms it's not a win -- payments on a purchased car
eventually cease, and the car retains some value for a long time which
is useful when buying a new one.

If you put a lot of mileage on a car it's usually cheaper to buy it.
A lease usually gives you 15,000 miles a year for free but you pay for
anything extra.  Those fees add up really quick, just as they do in a
rental.  Mileage charges for 23K miles would probably put it way over
breakeven.

It's easy to figure out which is a better deal for you.  Figure the
payments on a purchased car and deduct expected tradein/resale value
for the year at which you plan to get rid of it.  Figure the leasing
cost for the same period and add on extra-mileage costs if you expect
you'll have it.  Compare the two figures.

I think you'll find that an average driver breaks even at about a
two-and-a-half year lease but anyone with above-average mileage or
longer expected usage will save money by buying the car.

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: norcott_bill@tandem.com (Bill Norcott)
Subject: Re: About the T-100...again
Keywords: Yeah, I've said this before...
Reply-To: norcott_bill@tandem.com (Bill Norcott)
Organization: Tandem Computers, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:12:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.183306.5096@metter.fmpmis.metter.com>, virgo@metter.fmpmis.metter.com (Paul Virgo) writes:
|> Just for the record,for those of you who are in the domestic vs. Japanese
|> reliability war, the engine that is first being introduced in the new Toyota
|> full-size truck is based on the GM 3.1(read this is an auto-mag and in a 

In an article in this month's Popular Science they said that Toyota
is talking with GM about selling the T100 with a GM V8 in it.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------|
Bill Norcott			GUARDIAN POSIX project
Tandem Computers, Inc.		
10600 N. Tantau Avenue		PHONE:  (408) 285-3253
Cupertino, CA   95014		EMAIL: norcott_bill@tandem.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: 85 Audi 5000S for sale
From: <YLCBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 17 Nov 1992 21:14:09 EST
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

4 Door, Power Steering, Anti lock Brakes,
Manual transmission, Graphite in color,
61k miles, good condition $2750.

718-951-5802  (O)
718-859-4228  (H)
From: wood@siemens.com. (Jim Wood)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: New '93 Supra???
Date: 19 Nov 92 12:55:33 GMT

ja2f+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jinmo Ahn) writes:


>Has anyone seen the new '93 Supra???
>It's supposed to resemble the Lexus SC400 and share the SC300's engine.
>The little blurb from Road & Track says there will be an option of a
>twin-turbo inline-6 engine that may boost the power to 260 to 300hp.
>If there were any recent info. leeks you are aware of, please post them.

There've been plenty of spy photos in the car magazines in the last
couple of months.  Specifically, I believe the October issues of a
couple of them have pictures and descriptions -- such as the "1993
New Cars" issue of Consumer Reports, or a similar magazine.

It looks nice, although it's more conservative than either the Nissan
300ZX or the Mazda RX-7.  Let's wait to see what the critics have to say.

--
Jim Wood [jwood@siemens.siemens.com] (609) 734-3643
"Rise up on the wings of eagles, and two step among the stars.
 You are not forgotten.  Your smile will echo forever."
   -- Ryerson Schwark, to our friend Rob Bernardo.
From: mshar@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Mike Mshar)
Subject: Re: Whining about buying American cars
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 16:05:54 GMT

> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>> dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton) writes:

>>|> >Let's drag it out into the sunlight.  You'd rather help feed a kid from
>>|> >Detroit than a kid from Tsutsumi.  Is this not racism?
>>|> 
>>|> No, it's patriotism.
>>
>>Which is a far more dangerous problem than racism.
>
>[Semi-cute Canadian flag rendition deleted]
>
>And your flag display is not patriotic, right? 

Well, you know, any chance to knock the USA is fair game.

We are the only super-power left in the world, any chance to make it or its
inhabitants look bad is a welcome oppurtunity.

We may not be perfect, but we must be doing something right, to be where we
are!!!


-- 
|       Michael G. Mshar        | My Life-Long Goal: To keep common sense    |
|   mmshar@mn.ecn.purdue.edu    | alive and keep the idiots from taking over.|
|  mshar@mentor.cc.purdue.edu   |     \\President, Nice Guys Anonymous//     |
|____>>> United States Steel, Mechanical Engineer, Technical Services <<<____|
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: meyer@dbsun.uucp (Don Meyer)
Subject: Re: Help! Ford service disaster!!!
Organization: BioMerieux-Vitek, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 13:06:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.164222.18530@rtsg.mot.com> pacyga@rtsg.mot.com (Jim Pacyga) writes:
> [...]
>I have taken pictures which are currently being developed.  I now have 
>no faith whatsoever in the longevity of the car or for that matter the
>confidence in it to rely on it for a long trip since every possible vital 
>part has been open to the weather and anybody else interested in it.
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not sure I would worry about this part too much.  The engine is usually
pretty open to the weather, via water splashing up from underneath etc.

As far as leaving it open outside the fenced lot -- that would bother me also.
I'd raise a ruckus too!  Sadly, the response will probably be "Oh, that's
no problem (foolish customer), we do that alla the time."
Sigh.

I guess if you're really worried, go dump a bucket of sand in the oil fill.
Of course, they'll probably break other things putting the new engine in...
:-) :-) :-)  (Kidding!  Don't really do this.)

Don

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
meyer%dbsun.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu        |||     I am at two with nature.
Opinions expressed are personal.         |||       -- Woody Allen
From: philg@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Philip Greenspun)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Ford kicked my ass in court
Date: 19 Nov 92 19:00:37
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.
Distribution: rec
Reply-To: philg@martigny.ai.mit.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: zug.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: davel@ampex.com's message of Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:04:28 GMT


In article <1992Nov18.220428.1174@ampex.com> davel@ampex.com (Dave Larkins) writes:

   ... After four years of fighting with and being insulted by various service departments,
   I mailed the following letter to the VP of quality in Dearborne. This was a
   couple of months ago, and I am now somewhat upset at no reply. My biggest problem
   is that the car still "works" but I feel that I have lost significant value
   and equity during my ownership.

This is just so typical.  They can't even have a secretary send you
one of those Marketing 101 form letters ("tell the customer to go to
Hell but do it in such a way that he enjoys the trip"): "Thank you for
your interest in Ford.  blah blah blah.  We're sorry that you feel
this way. blah blah blah..."

My friend Melissa is a Harvard Grad and she wrote to a yogurt company
complaining that they had a slight grammar error on one of their
containers.  The president of the company wrote back explaining that
they were poor and small and had to write their own copy.  He sent her
some coupons for free yogurt and said they'd try to do better in the
future.  That is what a consumer typically gets after investing $1.50
in yogurt or toothpaste or shaving cream.  It is only Ford that feels
it is somehow appropriate to not even answer letters from $15,000
customers.

Anyway, the bottom line is that they Ford WILL take care of your
properly and honorably.  You just need a small claims and/or district
(municipal) court judge to remind them of what constitutes proper and
honorable.

--

      -- Philip Greenspun

-------------------------------------------------------------
MIT Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
545 Technology Square, Rm 433, Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 253-8574
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Slartibartfast)
Subject: Re: My new Saturn in the shop for new transmission
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 07:00:05 GMT
Keywords: Saturn reliability

In article <Bxy5Ly.GE8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> djm48887@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Dan Moisson) writes:
>

[stuff about Saturn tranny and Integras/Civics vs Saturns xxxxxed]

>Hey Mr. Slap Happy,
>
>   Coming from a person who is so "American" as you are (Ha),
>I find it hard to believe you are saying go buy foreign
>car.  The Saturn is a VERY good car.  I just saw something like
>Saturn is only behind Lexus and Infiniti in a independent quality
>survey.  Why don't you tell all of us what you based your
>information on??
	
	Personal tastes/biases/prejudices probably. :-)  Obviously not the
one to objectively compare Japanese and American cars...


-- 
"The Clergy Dazzle us with Heaven or they Damn us into Hell"  Billy Bragg!!!!!
IIIII  L    L    IIIII NNNNN IIIII   Chintan Amin c-amin1@uiuc.edu DEPT of E.E.
  I    L    L      I   N   N   I   RUSH	YES FLOYD METALLICA PEARLJAM REM PG
IIIII  LLLL LLLL IIIII N   N IIIII   GO TARHEELS  GO CAPITALS GO COWBOYS 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: dylan@cs.washington.edu (Dylan McNamee)
Subject: Heel-toe shifting ... an explanation, please?
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 19:53:43 GMT


Could someone on the net describe the heel-toe shifting technique
mentioned in some of the auto rags?  How about the proper way to 
double-clutch?

thanks,
dylan mcnamee
dylan@cs.washington.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: rjwade@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J. Wade)
Subject: Re: Extended Warranty (3rd party recommendations)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:32:11 GMT

In article <PHILG.92Nov15161532@zug.ai.mit.edu> philg@martigny.ai.mit.edu writes:
>In article <BxoEAu.4v8@world.std.com> sandyb@world.std.com (Sandy Bendremer) writes:
>
>   I am just about to take delivery on a new Ford (Taurus SHO).  Can anyone
>   recommend or provide a list of 3rd party extended warranty providers.
>
>   My goal would be to have as good (or better) coverage than Ford's program,
>   at lower cost.  
>
>Don't get a 3rd party warranty.  In most states the implied warranty

don't get an extended warranty ever, they are a ripoff *always*.
put the money in the bank and use it to cover repairs after the 3 year wait
is up!
From: lxrosser@cco.caltech.edu (Alex Rosser)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Whining about buying American cars
Date: 19 Nov 1992 21:35:59 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost) writes:

>WRT the Japanese vs American argument, I don't consider it relevant
>anymore.  I pointedly avoided looking at American-built cars and
>kicked myself later for not looking at the Saturns.  It's become
>obvious that American cars *can* compete effectively with the
>Japanese, it just took the big three a long time to decide to do it.


 One thing that gets me is, if American car companies can build
cars of comperable quality to imports(and I prefer European to
Japanese and Japanese to American) why does Saturn have to make
such a big deal about being an American car company that is building
cars that are on par with the Japanese quality wise?

 For me, what it boils down to is, if I'm paying for a car I'm going to
buy the best car for my money. I don't give a damn where it's built as 
long as it's built well. And right now, it seems to me that while the
quality of American cars is improving it's got miles to go. 
  -Alex Rosser
   lxrosser@cco.caltech.edu
From: lstowell@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Washers running off from the presure in the spare tire - Joke?
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:45:21 GMT
Reply-To: lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corp., Mountain View, CA

In article <1992Nov16.131909.15143@linus.mitre.org> rajiv@hilltop.mitre.org (Rajiv Kohli) writes:
>
>I got mail from a friend of mine who read this on the net. Could this be
>true or is this a bad joke. Sounds like a joke to me
>    [story about getting a flat spare from the windshield washer on
      a VW. deleted.

   Its both...true and a joke.   it is true, and the joke is on the
   owner. 

   However, there was something wrong with the washer on your
   friend's car or it would not have flattened the tire.


   The Porsche 914 did the same thing.   You inflated the spare to
   43-44 psi to run the windshield washer.   There was a limiting
   valve inline that kept the spare from going below about 25 psi.
   It had to be broken or your friend could not have flattened the
   spare.

   These washers were designed by the designer of the dribble glass.
   The high pressure washer fluid ran thru really thin hose up to
   the washer lever.  When that hose got a bit old and week, it blew
   up and sprays washer fluid all over the inside of your dash and
   car.  What humor!

   Aftermarket electric pump conversions were a very popular item.
From: nau@ssesco.com (William Nau)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Ultrasonic deer repellent whistles
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:01:37 GMT
Organization: SSESCO

In article <9211211714.AA26913@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu>, PNCSPPC@ccvax1.cc.ncsu.edu writes:
|> Do those ultrasonic deer repellent whistles that you mount on the front
|> bumper really work?  Supposedly, they will also repel dogs and other animals,
|> too.  I was thinking about getting a pair since where my parents live
|> there are a lot of deer, and I'd prefer not to have one jump in front of my
|> car.  However, it seems as though it wouldn't be very easy to test the
|> efficacy of these things.  Any comments?
|>  
|>  
|> Phil Calvert
|>  
|> <Bitnet: pncsppc@ncsuvax / Internet: pncsppc@ccvax1.cc.ncsu.edu>

This again.  I always wondered why the ultrasonic (bullshit, I can hear
those stupid annoying things) whistles were supposed to make deer go
the other way and make dogs come to you when you blow a dog whistle.

I live in MN and slam on the brakes for deer every couple of months.
They will get you if you have a stupid whistle or not.  They watch
you come.  They know you're there.  Yet they leap out at the last minute
and get ya anyway.  The best way I know of not to hit them is to be
watching for them.  I've slowed to 5mph and snuck by multiple times.
They are evil animals and want your car.  I guess it's their way of 
getting back for deer hunters.

Basically, I really don't know if they work.  I've known many people who
have them and hit deer anyway.  From what I can see, they are just some
stupid gimick.  Take your chances, keep your eye open, and make sure you
have your insurance paid up.
-- 
William R. Nau
Supercomputer Systems Engineering and Services Company (SSESCO)
511 11th Avenue South, Suite 216
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55415-1536
(612) 342-0003

nau@SSESCO.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos,misc.consumers,misc.kids,talk.politics.medicine,sci.med
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Re: Seat Belts Releasing in Crashes: Institute for Injury Reduction
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:24:00 GMT

Simple solution to the seatbelt problem: buy foreign. Having walked
away from a headon collision at 45 mph with a John Deere tractor, I
can guarantee you that Nissan seatbelts work very well.
-- 
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
 
GE knew there was lots of money to be made in the diagnostic medical
machine field since it was only a matter of time before people started
getting sick from the effects of all of GE's toxic and radioactive
waste dumping. I expect GE to get into the Mortuary business next.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: ben@neti.arc.nasa.gov (Ben Chang)
Subject: Re: Are new cars typically blemished?
Reply-To: ben@neti.arc.nasa.gov
Organization: VNW, Inc.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 00:24:38 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.233509.29953@tandem.com>, norcott_bill@tandem.com (Bill Norcott) writes:
-> In article <1992Nov17.222825.28074@riacs.edu>, ben@neti.arc.nasa.gov (Ben Chang) writes:
-> |>     I recently purchased a new vehicle and had noticed that the paint,
-> |> some of the trim, and the rear bumper had spots similar to water spots.
-> |> I took the car back to the dealer to ask them what caused the spots.
-> 
-> What make of car is it?
-> 

The car is a '93 Toyota Corolla wagon.
From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Ford kicked my ass in court
Date: 20 Nov 1992 20:07:04 GMT
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.239.3.202

andrew@frip.WV.TEK.COM (Andrew Klossner) writes:
>When you write a letter of complaint to a big corporate entity, you're
>a lot more likely to get an answer, and maybe some real action, if you
>keep it short.  Don't tell your life story, don't berate the BCE for
>not living up to their ads, don't use lots of flowery adjectives.
>Spend one short paragraph describing the problem, one short paragraph
>telling what remedy you want (just one remedy, don't give them multiple
>choices), and send it off.  The BCE flunky that has to read these
>things wants to get the gist of your message in thirty seconds.  If it
>takes much longer than that, your letter will get shuffled to the
>bottom of a tall pile of similar letters.

>This note was 13,000 words long -- four pages in 10-point type.  It may
>be awhile before anybody at Ford reads it.

>(If you're writing a letter for the record before you go to court, that
>of course is another matter.)

This is only partially true.  If you find the name and address of
several real live people in responsible positions -- particularly if
one or more is the boss of the others -- and you send copies of the
letter to all of them (indicating names in a Cc: at the bottom),
you're likely to get a response.

I sent a seven-page letter to the Director of PruCare (Prudential's
health insurance division) after having enough bad experiences for an
entire lifetime in the span of only three years, and was rewarded by a
pretty lengthy apologetic letter describing what they're doing about
the problem.

My letters to single people in their organization had been totally
worthless.

In a large organization a single person can "loose" a letter and no
one will be the wiser.  A letter to two or more means that if one
looses it and someone else who got the letter calls about it or
otherwise starts asking questions, the first could be held responsible
for not taking action.  This is *effective* in a large organization,
particularly if you hit people at several different levels (my letter
went to the Director and two people responsible for quality who
reported directly to the director -- I suspect they took some heat).

I also suggest sending notes to presidents rather than VP's.  There
are a lot of VP's at Ford and most other large companies, and they're
not so powerful as you'd like to believe.

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos