HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: PSI - summary of book review
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:08:23 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

boyken@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Karl Boyken) says:

> Photons?  Are you asserting that photons exist?  And how did you come by this
> knowledge?  Did you read it in books; did you hear it in a lecture?  I
> thought skeptics didn't form beliefs solely on the basis of authority.

When reading the literature about photons, you will learns procedures by
which you can obtain the evidence yourself, if that is your desire.  These
procedures are guaranteed to work *EVERY TIME*, so there is no need to
appeal to authority.

No such procedures exist for *ANY* paranormal phenomena.

> But let's assume you've conducted experiments based on sound, scientific
> principles to prove to yourself that photons exist.  What proof would you
> have?
> Would you be able to taste, touch, hear, or smell them?  Would you even be
> able to see them?  Nope--no one's ever directly perceived what can be
> identified as a photon.  A seeing person can see light, but not individual
> bundles of electromagnetic energy. There's no direct, experiential evidence
> that photons exist.  All anyone's ever seen are readings on experimental
> equipment.  The experimental equipment would have been set up according to
> scientific principles.  But what are these principles based upon?
> Ultimately, they're based upon untestable, unproveable assumptions, such as
> the assumption that a physical, objectively observeable universe does
> exist--materialism.

No such assumption needs to be made.  However, if you are claiming that the
material world doesn't exist, I invite you to prove it by stepping in front
of the next bus that happens to pass by.  Even my dog knows better than to do
this.

> Thus, the belief that photons exist requires faith--faith in the basic
> assumptions of science, and, if you have not conducted the experiments your-
> self, faith in the authority of the scientific establishment.  Hardly the
> stuff of skepticism.

> On the other hand, my belief in my paranormal experiences is derived from my
> own experience.  I'm skeptical of belief by authority, skeptical of belief by
> faith.

Are you saying that only your own personal experience can be used to derive
beliefs?  Do you believe that George Bush exists?  I bet you've never actually
seen him, only his image on a TV screen.

Maybe George Bush makes a poor example, since there is little independent
evidence that he really exists.  Perhaps Max Headroom is better.
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:13447 talk.bizarre:24093
From: revpk@cellar.org (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: Song for sci.skeptic.
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:37:26 GMT
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system

gpkatch@alcor.concordia.ca (Gary Katch) writes:
> 
> [Chorus]
> O, super-scientific skeptics expose all that's bogus
> The Rev'rend counters Maximus's patriarchal focus
> And if you post before you think, you're only braggadocious
> Super-scientific skeptics expose all that's bogus!
> 
> -- gk

        Aw, now 'at's bloody charmin' 'at's wot 'at is....

*blush*

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  revpk@cellar.org
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: alt.close.minded.ninnies
Keywords: go back to sleep
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:23:27 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.232011.11239@odin.corp.sgi.com>, rodb@slugo.corp.sgi.com (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>Hear no evil,speak no evil,see no evil & bury your head in sand.
>
>	How long did it take us to fly?
>	How long did it take to prove the Earth was round?
>	How long did...............I think you all get the POINT!
>	(if you don't,go back to sleep)
>
>You SKEPTICS keep the rest of us striving for greatness....THANKS!:*]

That's a case for my quotes file:

"They all laughed at Albert Einstein. They all laughed
at Columbus.


Unfortunately, they also all laughed at Bozo the Clown."
(William H. Jefferys)


-- 
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Do you ask a Napoleon why it has to be Moscow, of all places?  Do you ask a
Mondrian why one has to paint only in the rectangularly framed primary colours
Red, Blue, and Yellow?  Ah, how all questions are ruined in view of a persuas-
ively recited system of madness! And is there a mortar keeping those systems
together firmer than real or supposed enemies?  -  Robert Gernhardt

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: arsmith@nyx.cs.du.edu (Alan Smith)
Subject: Re: ex
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 20:06:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.092841.8546@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> pensyl@iccgcc.dec
et.ab.com writes:
>Has this been simulated with a watermelon?
>JP


What, "ex?"  *I* never tried it, the block-and-tackle arrangement alone
was beyond my means.  That, and I haven't the  faintest clue where to put
either the rutabegas or the Pteradactyl (sp?) eggs.

Besides, doesn't this belong on alt.sex.geoforms?

Big Al.  :~)  (No 'fence?)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Lifespring
Organization: Video 7 + G2 = Headland Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:55:56 GMT

In article <7649@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> eva@Apocalypse.CAD.UCLA.EDU (Eva) writes:
>I was wondering if anyone out there had any tales to tell about Lifespring.

No experiences.  But it's just this year's alias for est, with the
names changed to protect the guilty.  (Werner Erhard in particular.)

-- 
Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
Headland Technology/V7 | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
mvp@hsv3.lsil.com      | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp  | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry
From: wsadjw@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: fire walking
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:56:27 GMT
Reply-To: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

In article <1992Jul13.182451.19307@chv.dsir.govt.nz> srcriro@chv.dsir.govt.nz writes:
>       The only people who get burnt are the nutters who believe the Lord
>will protect them and try to stand still. Then the LordUs laws of physics give
>them a right ol hurry-up.

Not so.  I got burnt in a charlatan's show, after I publicly announced that
I thought I didn't need his "hypnosis".  I guess he heated up the coals
more than usual (commercial barbecue charcoal, fired with lots of gasoline)
and did not prepeare the bed carefully, as a result I and a fellow skeptic
got burned (I still can feel where my left foor was burnt, after a whole
year), but also 5 out of 10 others who probably were innocent victims of
the charlatan's desire to get those goddamn skeptics threatening his 
business.

JWN
From: kambic@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Bonus, Iniquus, Celer - Delegitus Duo)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Oswald's Photograph
Date: 24 Jul 92 10:22:31 EST
Distribution: usa

In article <182707@pyramid.pyramid.com>, pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi) writes:
[...]
> This leap of faith, from "an expert says that...." to "it is true that ..."
> is what I call the "emporer's new clothes effect." Rather than being 
> allowed to examine the evidence to make up your own mind, you are 
> enticed into believing what amounts to "expert hearsay."  Expert hearsay 
> is then taken for "truth."
[...]
> What do YOU think?  Are you able to get access to the data needed to make
> an intelligent decision?
>
Me thinks that no matter what set of evidence you  have you will interpret in
terms of a conspiracy.  This sounds a lot like "Newage" science.  Make up your
own opinions about how the world works.  Personal experience is the only
touchstone for research and truth.  

GXKambic
standard member of the whole world conspiracy to hide the truth disclaimer
From: thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Illusions (was Re: Erich Von Daniken)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 05:17:07 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <62658@cup.portal.com> <veale.711901482@coma>
  <1992Jul27.162659.11513@spectra.com>

In article <1992Jul27.162659.11513@spectra.com>
johnson@spectra.com (boyd johnson) writes:

| In article <veale.711901482@coma> veale@Colorado.EDU (Anthony Veale') writes:
| >thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes:
| >
| >>In article <1992Jul23.091433.14378@newshub.sdsu.edu>
| [article about prehistoric jeep tracks deleted]
| >>---------- enclosure
| 
| This article is not meant to mock the previous posts and should probably
| be in rec.humor, but the previous articles reminded me of an old Steve
| Martin segment paraphrased something like this:
| 
| "I saw a fossil in the museum that was incredible."
| "It was a giant zipper from millions of years ago."
| 
| "The guide tried to downplay it and told me it was just a fossil of a
| fern, but I knew better than that."
| "After all, what would a fern be doing wearing a zipper?"

I like it!  :-)

'Twould be difficult to REALLY mock anything on Usenet, though.

I am thankful to "mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)" who wrote in
article <1992Jul26.202618.26209@m.cs.uiuc.edu> the following:

| The idea appeared in the story "Times Arrow" by Arthur C. Clarke in
| 1952.  The copy I have is in a the collection "Reach for Tomorrow",
| with the date 1956.  In the preface there is the following interesting
| comment:
| 
| 	"Times Arrow" is an example of how hard it is for the
| 	science-fiction writer to keep ahead of fact.  The quite -- at
| 	the time the story was written -- imaginary discovery
|===> 	described in the tale now actually exists, and may be seen
|===> 	in the New York Natural History Museum.  I think it most
| 	unlikely that the rest of the story will come true ...
| 
| Clearly, ACC made this up, and just about the right time for the museum
| to obtain one.  ACC's comments open the question of whether there were
| two (or even more) copies of this unique artifact, which materialized 
| just after he invented it!  Time travel is a non-obvious business, even 
| in reality. :-)

When I saw it circa 1953, it was on display at the Smithsonian in DC; it's
now (apparently) in New York (still?).

I'll see what additional info I can dig up; I have some relatives in NYC
who are in a position to access even non-public exhibits.

What I saw at the Smithsonian made a lasting impression on me nearly 40
years ago.

Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com ]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: hzuker@sierra.com (Hunter Zuker)
Subject: Re: fire walking
Organization: Sierra Geophysics Inc.,  Kirkland, Wa
Distribution: sci
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:45:10 GMT

In article <BrLLpr.Huv@acsu.buffalo.edu> v070qg5d@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Eric M Chmiel) writes:
>   The best thing I ever saw on the subject was on an episode of Arthur C. 
>Clarke's "Strange World".  A pysicist was about to walk on hot coals (in
>accordance with the above effect) to prove there was nothing mystical at all
>about it.  He was so nervous he was hyperventilating and could barely speak.
>It was quite funny.  He did make it across unharmed however, proving once again
>that the Leidenfrost effect is genuine and more than satisfactorily accounts for
>fire-walking.

Does this mean if he got burned while walking across that the Leidenfrost
effect is not genuine?  If so I know a few people that have not made it
across unscathed. ;-<  

I'm not sure what the right measure of the effectiveness of the 
Leidenfrost effect is, but success in crossing the coals is not proof
in itself.  (Especially since those who claim that "mystic" powers
are involved would say (incorrectly) that it proves their claim.)

Hunter
-- 
        Hunter Zuker            (206) 822-5200     
        Sierra Geophysics       ...!uunet!sgihbtn!hzuker -OR-
        11255 Kirkland Way      hzuker@sierra
        Kirkland, WA  98033     Any opinions are mine and not those of Sierra's.
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:13399 sci.bio:2785
From: mcginnis@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.bio
Subject: Re: Mitochondirial DNAdir
Date: 30 Jul 92 10:34:02 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

> Mitochondrial DNA is an entirely separate DNA from the rest of the human
> genome. It can reproduce itself inside the mitochondria regardless of whether
> or not the cell is actually dividing. Mitochondria is easy to isolate in the
> lab, and so the intact mitrochondiral DNA will still be there. 
> 
> In reproduction, the sperm contributes the DNA from the male, while the
> female contributes the DNA plus the entire cell contents of the ovary. That
> means that BOTH sexes get the mother's mitochondria, including the mother's
> mitrochondiral DNA, at the exclusion of the father. That means that the
> mitrochondiral DNA should be identical across several generations of females.

I read an interesting set of articles in the Spring issue of MOSAIC magazine
(check your local U.S. Govt. Documents library, it's put out by the NSF). 
Sperm carries mitochondria but its mitochondria virtually never shows up in the
offspring... but  sometimes they do.  This will change the nature of
mitochondrial inheritance statistics.

The articles include interesting (to me) information about how nuclear DNA and
mitochondrial DNA interact.  They follow different coding schemes (a given
ordering of nucleotides in one will not mean the same thing if transported into
the other).  Also, there are chunks of mitochondrial DNA in the nucleus and
their RNA transcriptions must be transported into the mitochondria before the
defined protein can be constructed.  

Michael McGinnis                Internet: mcginnis@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Computer Center                   Bitnet: mcginnis@ukanvax
University of Kansas               Voice: (913)864-0413
Lawrence, KS  66045                  FAX: (913)864-0485

Rust never sleeps.
From: jft@lonex.rl.af.mil (James F. Tims)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: sci.JUGGERNAUT.jfk
Keywords: Health Ethics Humor Economy Meteorology Ozone Children Killer
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:53:28 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: RL


	Sci.juggernaut.John.Fitz.killer
________________________________________________

Not a saucer in sight, the prophesies are light,
	What's this other stuff in here?
Sci.geo.meteorology? Sci.econ? Sci.biology?
	This newsgroup's really looking queer.
And look! Cattle, godless children, and jfk!

Vegan stew's on the menu, not the regular venu
	Of psyhics and bumps in the night.
Just this ozone, UV, and !HF#Cl@3! 
	Sigh :-(psi) This IS sci.skeptic,right?
At least there's cattle, goddamned brats, and jfk.

Carnivore! Cannibal! You'd eat the flesh of an animal?!
	Aren't people MEAT, you swine?
Vegetarian ragout. Fructarian psych out. 
	Weren't insectivores left out?	Never mind.
I'll just browse these cows, paidoagnostics, and jfk.

Sci.philosophy.meta would be a lot better 
	For talk about ethical matters. 
But THEY'RE debunking MYSTICS!  POLITICS in sci.physics?  
	The sci.hierarchy's in tatters.
Stampede with the rest of us. Keep kids off of Jesus.
	Sci.juggernaut.JFK!


Sorry...I feel much better, now.  
I won't need the thorazine after all.
-- 
jft
"10 items or less" -- *WRONG*   10 items or fewer.
From: mike@max.ma.utexas.edu (Mike Sullivan)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: ghost story on NPR
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:29:59 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: University of Texas at Austin Mathematics


    I just heard a "news" report on National Public Radio's show "All
    Things considered" about a "ghost" in some place called Tanglewood
    Maner. They interviewed a woman who runs a restuurant there. She 
    went on about all the cute things the "ghost" does. Her statements 
    were taken by the interviewer at face value. There were no skeptical
    questions. Did anyone else here this report? Does anyone know what is
    behind the ghost story itself? I got the impression that the woman
    (I did catch her name) was trying to drum up business. 

Mike Sullivan, mike@math.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: PSI - summary of book review
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:31:44 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.155742.19254@news.uiowa.edu>, boyken@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Karl Boyken) writes in part:
|> This is exactly the kind of patronizing, condescending pap I mentioned in my
|> earlier post.

|> [...]bundles of electromagnetic energy. There's no direct, experiential evidence
|> that photons exist. 

|> [...]assumptions of science, and, if you have not conducted the experiments your-
|> self, faith in the authority of the scientific establishment.  Hardly the
|> stuff of skepticism.

|> [...]On the other hand, my belief in my paranormal experiences is derived from my
|> own experience.  I'm skeptical of belief by authority, skeptical of belief by
|> faith.
[...]
****
You wasted a lot of time beating up on ideas that you simply made up 
and said were what I thought.  If you want to know my opinions, ask,
don't put stupid words in my mouth.  Talk about patronizing.

Anyway, this is all irrelevant to my questions.  Aside from the fact that 
you think I am an idiot for "believing" in photons, will you PLEASE 
answer my questions.  (By the way, you managed to avoid indicating
whether YOU believe in photons or not.)  Attacking my alleged
philosophical faults is NOT an answer to my questions.  

I repeat my questions and challenge you to give me a straight answer.
I emphasize that I am asking for the benefit of your own personal
experience, which we BOTH agree is important, and we BOTH agree is
valid.

|> What I really wnat to know is:  What happens while you are (or feel
|> you are) out of your body?  What is the "you" that is outside?
|> How can it "see" light (photons) without any of the ususal retina
|> and neural apparatus?
|> And most of all, "What, if anything, leaves the body during your OBE?"

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: There are no atoms!
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 12:44:35 GMT

In article <BrqAu8.F24@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes:
}In article <1992Jul20.200230.28917@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
}>In article <BrKIIz.M5q@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes:
}>}In article <1992Jul17.183649.3509@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
}>}>
}>}>OK.  Are there quarks?  Or maybe I should say "is there _A_ quark?"
}>}>
}>}   Deep inelastic scattering of electrons from protons shows that a
}>}proton scatters high energy electrons sometimes as if it has a charge of
}>}+-1/3 and sometimes as if it has a charge of +-2/3. High energy
}>}proton-proton or proton-antiproton collisions allow people to map the
}>}energy fraction per parton inside a nucleus. They find that the energy is
}>}roughly divided among the three 'valence quarks' and an effective three
}>}virtual quarks and gluons.
}>
}>Not "quarks".  "quark".  Singular.
}>
}   Yes, quark in the singular. The scattering is from a single entity,
}you don't have multiple centre scattering in these experiments at any
}signal level whatsoever.
}   I suppose what you're driving at is the question of whether any single
}quark has ever been detected unconfined, far from any other quarks. 


I was more amused by the theoretical underpinnings that an isolated quark
CANNOT exist, not that merely it has not been observed.  They do present a
nice mathematical model that allows the behavior of more gross matter to
be modeled, though.

Which, of course, leads back to the original question of "What is "real"?"
From: fx@gserv1.dl.ac.uk (Dave Love)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: info on UFOlogist Colin Bloy?
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:00:47 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: SERC Daresbury Laboratory, Warrington, UK

[I'm posting this on behalf of someone without news access -- please
e-mail replies to the address below.]

The Alternativa Racional a las Pseudociencias would appreciate any
information (his position, publications etc.) on Colin Bloy, a British
UFOlogist who is due to address a seminar on UFOs at the Universidad
Complutense de Madrid.

Javier E. Armentia
Vice-President
Alternativa Racional a las Pseudociencias

E-mail:  Armentia_Javier @ euskom.spritel.es
Fax:    +34-48-226309
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Lifespring
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 27 Jul 92 07:51:10 GMT

In <1992Jul24.220411.28638@lsil.com> gascan@dcst16.dc (Bill Gascoyne) writes:

>but to some people it is a
>                          powerfully liberating message

And this was a message that was powerfully liberated from conventions
like terminating lines and stuff like that.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     Is it NOUVELLE CUISINE when 3 olives are struggling with a
 |warren@      scallop in a plate of SAUCE MORNAY?
/ nysernet.org 
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic