From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: Guilty?
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:01:10 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.184025.97821@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.ibm.com writes:
>In  <Bvzn2E.GAo@cs.psu.edu>  beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>> In article <1992Oct11.173632.97990@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes
>> >In  <Bvv5FC.FvE@cs.psu.edu>  beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>> >>
>> >> Janis Cortese wrote the following on soc.women (moderated):
>> >>
>> >> ===   If I had a kid and someone threatened it, I'd slit their
>> >> ===   throat wide open and drink their blood with a smile in my face.

>> First, several people chose to interpret Mr. Steeves' posting literally;
>> would these same people grant the benefit of the doubt only to women
>> who make violent statements?
>
>I *did* interpret that she'd kill the attacker literally.

You thought she might "slit their throat wide open and drink their 
blood with a smile in [her] face"?

If Will's ex said, "I'll kill you if you tell anyone," would you
accept that as literal?


>> Second, it seems quite reasonable from his posting that he objected to
>> far more than "not showing the proper respect"
>
>It's clear that he also objected to the abortion, but the difference in
>the two scenarios was waiting a year before telling him, *not* getting
>or not getting the abortion.

What about "throwing salt in the wounds" -- ie., mental cruelty?

And, by taking the "mathematical" difference between the cases, 
do you wish to imply that the abortion was not a factor in the 
worse case?  In other words, because the abortion issue was the same 
in both cases, it must have played +no+ part?


>> Since certain persons have accepted explicitly violent statements from
>> women as figurative,
>
>Note again:  I accepted the *violence* as literal; it was the "drink their
>blood with a smile in my face" that I interpreted figuratively.

Did you accept "slit their throat wide open" as literal?


>> Since those persons who complained seem to have an outspoken agenda,
>> it is no great surprise that they concluded only "respect" was at issue
>
>No great surprise, considering that his words were:

[turning away from your emphasis and toward mine:]

>#but in fact had not only told me right afterwards, but had waited a year (!)
                  ^^^^^^^^                           ^^^

"Not only X but Y," as I've said, usually implies that Y is different
either in magnitude or character from X.  You chose to assume it was 
only different in magnitude, ie. "greater disrespect."  You chose to
rule out any mental cruelty in waiting a year and then throwing "salt
in the wounds."


>> considering why she might have waited a year to "throw salt in the wounds,"
>
>Since you seem to have an outspoken agenda, it's no great surprise that
>you assume she waited a year in order to throw salt in the wounds, rather
>than simply not telling him because she knew it would upset him (or because
>she knew that (a hypothetical) he was deranged and actually *would* try to
>kill her if he found out), and it happened to come out a year later.

I assume no such thing, even having heard that she made death threats.

It's clear that there are a lot of possibilities.  I'd give her the
benefit of the doubt if we were discussing why she would have waited 
a year and whether we should regard it as a despicable act.  

At the same time, I'd give Will the benefit of the doubt, especially
given that he consistently tries to publicize the trauma of abortion
on men.  If you had read his earlier writings, you might have guessed
that his explicit description came from a deeply felt agony over abortion
and the ignoring or mistreatment of men in regard to abortion.  Hence
perhaps a little more than "disrespect" went into his feelings.

It seems that, on the net, co-partisans are presumed innocent until 
proven guilty, and all others are presumed guilty even if proved innocent.

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion