From: tom@europa.lonestar.org (Tom Kimball)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Why do Americans get so little vacation time?
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:17:56 GMT
Organization: Moria Mining Guild (BBS) -- Dallas, Texas, USA

In article <Bt8HJH.9qE@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.064650.22857@europa.lonestar.org> tom@europa.lonestar.org (Tom Kimball) writes:
>>Everyone I know complains they don't have enough spare time.  My impression is
>>that a large portion of Americans, quite possibly the majority, want more 
>>vacation time.
>
>   Sure, even me!   All I'm objecting to is the idea that HP (my employer)
>   should have to pay for it.  I think it would be great if we all agreed

Then we don't necessarily disagree on Americans getting more vacation time.
I don't object to the idea that people might be compensated less if they
have more time off, if business really did suffer as a result.


>>>  If this is true then why are the two most productive nations on earth 
>>>  (unit output per man hour -- source: Economist Dec 18, 1991) Japan and
>>>  the US -- which also have the least vacation time?
>>
>>Some points:
>>1. The Japanese get 50% more vacation time than Americans!!  (3 wks vs 2 wks)
>
>  The Japanese average 2100 working hours a year versus 2050 in the US
>  (source: OECD) 

The point is that they can take that vacation if they want to.  Why shouldn't
Americans have the same rights as Japanese in regards to vacation time??


>>2. The American economy is in far worse shape than most people realize, due
>>   to the federal budget deficit. :-(  This will drag down productivity.
>
>   Huh?   What does this have to do with vacation time?   Or even
>   productivity?   Take a look at the Japanese government budget
>   deficit sometime; it's no stroll in the park, either.

Well I've got some news for you.  In the long run the budget deficit will
have a MUCH greater impact on productivity than vacation time ever will.
If productivity is your great concern (nothing wrong with that unless you lose
your perspective), forget about little things like vacation rates and concern 
yourself with what really matters:  the Deficit.


>>   take Germany.  They work 36 hrs/week with 6 weeks vacation/yr, and they
>>   are one of the most productive nations in the world.  Before they absorbed
>>   East Germany, their economy was in much better shape than the U.S.
>
>   Really?  Let's see some numbers.   Even before the Wall came down they
>   had a chronic unemployment rate higher than our recessionary one
>   and industrial output per man hour was (and still is) lower than ours.
>   Moreover, according to The Economist, not only was/is their productivity
>   growth lower than the US and Japan, it was lower than France or the UK's!

I do not dispute your statistics, but I was talking about the whole economy,
not just one aspect of it.  I bet France or the UK wouldn't mind trading
their economy for Germany's.


>>If we do get more vacation time and it turns out that every worker gets less
>>work done as a result, then we can assume our earnings won't rise as much as 
>>they would have, in order to compensate.
>  
>    These days lots of comanies don't even HAVE earnings!  

I was referring to individuals.

>>Companies will have more money to hire workers and -- guess what?  We won't 
>>have to pay as many people not to work.
>
>    We don't pay people not to work now.   Unemployment is employer-paid
					    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Right.  Which means businesses will have to pay fewer people not to work.
This is yet another reason why your theory that business will suffer losses
proportional to vacation increases is full of holes.

>    and there is no welfare for unemployed adults without children.  In

I would be surprised if this were true.  In any case, most adults have children.
And the more who have jobs, the fewer society has to support.


>>The Europeans get 6 weeks/yr vacation to Americans 2 weeks/yr.  It may be
>>that they earn a little less because of this, but their lives are richer
>>as a result.  [In fact, 3 times as rich as Americans]
>
>    Are you sure you don't mean "expensive"?   Last time I was in Europe

Some things are more expensive in Europe.  If each state in the U.S. was
an independant nation, things would be more expensive here too.  The point
being that there are price disparities in every country and a great many
things help to determine them.

>    some things seemed 3 times as expensive.   What is your metric? 

I was referring the fact that theirs is the superior quality of life because 
of this issue.


***** Political Message Follows *****
[followups might want to drop misc.jobs.miscs from the newsgroup line?]

I think one the major conclusions we can all draw from reading this thread is
that Americans will never get more than 3rd-World vacation levels without help 
from the government.  This is what Europe had to do, and if we ever hope to 
catch up with them, we will have to use political means in the U.S. as well.

Write your congressmen.  Write the President.  (Well, don't bother as long as 
George Bush is in office.  He will just wad your letter up and toss it in the 
trash.).  You say you don't have the time to write?  All the more reason you
should.  Don't shoot for the moon.  Four weeks/yr is enough to get people 
exited about the idea.

Write to any politicians you think might be of help.  The goal here is to
turn lack of vacation into a national political issue.  When we do that %90
of the battle will be won.  Pollsters will start asking Americans if they
want more vacation.  Eventually politicians will realize they can get votes
on this issue, and European style legislation will be drafted setting a national
standard.  Contrary to what some people say, business will do just fine,
as is demonstrated by the fact that every other industrial democracy gets more 
vacation than Americans do.

Any one here [in the U.S.] on the net could be the one who initiates the spark 
to make this happen.  A much better level of vacation could be yours sometime 
later in the decade. If nobody acts, however, most people (oops, make that 
"most Americans") on this net will never have more than a small amount of 
vacation for their entire working lives.

[I better stop now.  I'm short on time.]

-- 
Tom Kimball  			tom@europa.lerctr.org    
tom@europa.lonestar.org		tom%europa@egsner.cirr.com
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc