HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 21:36:25 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reflections on the matter of language change

> >I'm not sure what your point is here.  As far as I know, the Great Vowel
> >Shift occurred in English without any cultural catalyst.  The same could
> >be said for Grimm's Law in Proto-Germanic.  The same could be said for
>              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the point is this is a theory not a fact of language.....as for your use of

I'm beginning to find this tediously boring.  Ok, leave out Grimm's
Law if you find it too theoretical.

> 'cultural change': I do not know what this means, could you give me an
> example?

Cultural change means a change in culture.

> >vowel raising before nasals in Southern U.S. speech this century.

Did you quote this for some reason?  What would you like to know about
vowel raising before nasals in Southern U.S. speech this century?

> sorry to be a nitpicker, but a theory must be maintained:  dialects of English
> must include far more than what ol poor Webster could ever reach and besides

Sorry.  I guess I shouldn't be saying anything about dialects since I don't
know much about dialectology.

> as far as the structure of ENglish goes webster did not change anything..
> next piece of evidence?

Did I say that Webster changed anything about the structure of English??
I don't think I did.  I can't think of a single example right now of
a structural change that was intentional -- which is not to say there
has never been one -- I just don't know of one.

> >for evidence.  I agree that talking about a rare and marginal phenomenon
> >isn't worth the bother.  I would not have brought it up.  You did.
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> au contraire!  Now you are nitpicking; the word INTENTION is a paradigmatic
> sister/brother of CAUSE, so to speak; accept responsibility for your cultural
> determinism and faith in the SCIENCE OF LINGUISTICS.

I guess you're right.  If a tornado causes my house to cave in, it was
the intention of that tornado to do so.
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:17:25 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Anne Harwell <aharwell%PANAM1.PANAM.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reflections on the matter of language change
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

>library? BTW, dont be such a prescriptivist.

Pardon me, but did you just call Natalie Maynor, Natalie
"I-never-saw-an-infinitive-I-couldn't-split" Maynor from Miss State....a
prescriptivist? Pardon me while I pick myself up off the floor from laughing so
hard.

-abh
From: gtoal@castle.ed.ac.uk (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Deserving Flames
Date: 12 Apr 92 11:55:03 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <199204111949.AA02828@eff.org> rita%EFF.ORG@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU (Rita Marie Rouvalis) writes:
>	BTW, women's concern with Birth Control may be one of the
>biggest reasons we don't seem to be as succeptable to AIDS as
>gay male couples.  We tend to insist on condoms for bc reasons,
>and spermicide has been shown to have some value in preventing
>infection with the virus.  Other than for AIDS, gay male couples
>don't have a use for these devices.

Ahem; not really wanting to broach a delicate subject on this group
that isn't at all relevant to words [ ;-) ] but I couldn't let
that pass.  The reason women don't get Aids as much is because
the virus catches on particularly well in the lining of the rectum.

The statistics bear this out; women who have anal sex have a higher
proportion of infection than those who don't; lesbians are barely
affected at all outside the overlap groups of IV drug abusers or
S&M practitioners.  (2 at the last count, worldwide)

Graham
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 16:16:00 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Captain CAAAAAAVEMAN!!!!! <ARHODES%DREW.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Asterix (and Tintin)

In article <tfilt197846@drew.edu>, Frank <ST403231@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> writes:
>>From:         Anne Haycock <haycock@MARLEY.THINK.COM>
> But while we have been extolling Asterix to the skies, no one has mentioned
> my other favorite series of the same genre.  I mean, of course, the Tintin
> books.  Captain Haddock, Nestor, Snowy (Minou in French, Struppi, I think,
> in German), Thomson and Thompson (Dupond et Dupont).  I have to admit that
> I share a taste in literature with my little brother, who is now 11.  I often
> buy him Tintin or Asterix (or Calvin and Hobbes) books as presents, and
> read them myself, first.  True confessions.
>>
>>
> Frank
>
        And if you like literate comics, you might want to give _Epicurus
the Sage_, put out by Pirhana Press.  Lots of guest appearances by all the
great Greek philoshophers (sp).  Epicurus, along with the snot-nosed brat
Alexander the Great (or is it Philip?) get involved in all sorts of fun
adventures with gods.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
From: fwp@Jester.CC.MsState.Edu (Frank Peters)
Subject: Re:      Re: sad thought
Organization: Computing Center, Mississippi State University
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 12:13:31 GMT

In article <WORDS-L%92041117283993@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> The Ronin <WHITERJ%MSCD.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU> says:
>Sayeth        Carol Goodson <CGOODSON@UGA.BITNET>
>
>> Just food for thought...could it be because private schools in the North
>> were begun in order to provide a better education, while private schools in
>> the South were usually founded to avoid integration?
>
>On Soapbox
>
>     Ahem.  Are you saying that starting schools so that one's
>children do not have to associate with those of a lesser economic tier
>is *not* avoiding integration?

I'm confused.  Carol said 'in order to provide a better education.' You
appear to have translated this into something completely different
having to do with avoiding association with those of a lesser economic
tier.  Rather a stretching translation, I think, since she said nothing
about avoidance or economic tiers.

Now you seem to be calling upon her to defend your interpretation
rather than the completely different statement which she actually
made.  It seems to me that you must first get her to agree to your
economic tier thesis before you call upon her to defend its morality.

--
Frank Peters  -  UNIX Systems Programmer  -  Mississippi State University
Internet: fwp@CC.MsState.Edu  -  Phone: (601)325-7030  -  FAX: (601)325-8921
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 05:39:24 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: words-l history

> ooooooooopppppssssss.....I really said that....oh, well...I KNOW the listserv
> is at uga.cc.uga.edu....and the tshirt reminds me in case i forget....
>  [...]
> dan.....who made his fourth mistake.....got divorced after the first three....

I hope that's not a threat that you are going to divorce yourself from
the list!!  Ra will forgive you for insulting it by getting it confused
with a VM system.  Ra is very forgiving.  I abuse it frequently.
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 07:32:31 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: Re: "nothing wrong"
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> I take back what I said about taking back. But still (now *I* am confused),
> how can this follow from linguistic theory ?
>
> In fact (now is probably appropriate to ask) how does cultural relativism
> in general follow from sociological theory ?

I think we're having some problems with what is included as "linguistic
theory" and "sociological theory."  Exactly how are you using those terms?

> >> (An example of a sentence which IS bad is : "If two people are speaking
> >> different dialects, they are both right."
> >
> >Did I say that?  I don't think I did, although I understand its point.
>
> I vaguely remember that it appeared somewhere, I wasn't reading carefully.

I'm confident that those particular words did not appear in anything I
wrote, although again I'll say that I'm pretty sure what the point was
and that I agree with what I think the point was.

> In any case, this is not the way to say what was presumably meant. And if

I agree.

> "right" is replaced by "correct", it dilutes the word "correct" to mean
> almost nothing. The fact which is to be emphasised is that the linguist
> will just be studying two things.

I think the point goes back to what somebody was saying about "good" or
"correct" English.  The linguist would study the two dialects without
calling either one "good" or "correct."  As for what the linguist will
be studying, it depends upon the purposes of the study.  I would say
that the linguist in this case would probably be studying at least
three things:  each of the different dialects and their interaction.
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 18:42:19 -0400
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Rita <rita%EFF.ORG@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      RE: electronic media
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>1) How many people in all do computer networks  reach and influence ?

        Let's see.  Nobody knows for sure, but I'll throw some numbers
at you.  The Internet has been estimated to reach from 1.6 million to
3 million people worldwide (my best guess is around 2 million somewhere).
CompuServe reaches around 700,000.  Prodigy somewhere up around a million.
Fidonet is up close to a million worldwide.  So, not even counting services
I don't know the figures for and random BBS's, I'd say it's safe to say
that there are Sagans of people on one network or another.


>2) What do desk-top publishing and word-processing have to do with
>   the spread of "language" ?

        There are those who maintain that composing using these tools
influences the composition to some degree.  I'm not sure I agree.  But
if it does, then these tools influence the spread of language in that
they are the influencing what we write.



>My original question was about a statement which said that computer
>networks will have a profound impact on the language (or maybe a bit
>less strong than that.) It sounds like an amazing overestimation to me.

        Um, at the moment, yes, it is an overestimation.  But I would
have claimed that such a statement made wrt the radio and TV in their
first blush gross overestimations, also.  Now, who will deny the impact
the television has on our culture and language?


Rita
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X-Mailer: UVa Prime Mailer 4.1.229 (92-01-19)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 09:05:04 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "3669/Jonathan Lord"
 <3669jml%PRIME.ACC.VIRGINIA.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Elvis stamp

I know that this is probably out of the scope of this group, but I was
wondering if anyone has taken a poll of Word-L people about their preference
as to which Elvis stamp the USPS should manufacture; the "young" Elvis or
the "old" Elvis?  I have a hunch as to which one this group prefers, but
I'm not going to say.  Has this been done here already and am I being
redundant?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Jonathan
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:34:14 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         CGOODSON%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: sad thought
              13 Apr 1992 17:01:38 -0500 from <harwood@TENET.EDU>

On Mon, 13 Apr 1992 17:01:38 -0500 Nancy Harwood said:
>It drives my husband crazy...I have a bad habit of trying to read him
>interesting stuff from the newspaper or something else I'm reading...he
>rates that right at the top of the scale of annoying habits
>ndh

EVERYBODY in my family does that... we all drive each other crazy (but in a
nice way).... I think it shows how interested we are in what we read and how
much we want to share the knowledge... a favorite memory from childhood is
the Encyclopedia Americana at the foot of the stairs between the dining room
and livingroom....anytime ANYTHING came up, the first thing my mother'd say
was: let's look it up.... which we'd do, and then read the whole thing to
everyone within earshot....
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Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1992 18:44:52 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita%EFF.ORG@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Several things...
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu
              the behinder I get" at Apr 12, 92 1:42 pm

	Handwriting:  mine's fairly legible, but only as a result
of a *lot* of effort.  For some reason, I was unable to form letters
just from copying from the board when I was a youngster and had to
trace letters indented in cardboard cards OVER AND OVER AND OVER
for months and months.  So now my printing is good, but my handwriting
is pretty messy.

	Reading.  I read at an early age and read *lots*.  However,
I didn't have a lot of guidance as to what to read, and never seemed
to discover the books everyone else has such fond memories of, like
Narnia.  I read anything with animals in it -- all the Black Stallion
books, lots of Jack London, etc.  I probably missed a lot of the subtle
stuff since I was reading above my comprehension abilities, but I enjoyed
the stories anyways, so I figure I got what I needed out of them.  I
was read to as a child, but I seem to be the only one who picked up the
reading habit.  My mom browses my book collection like the public
library when she visits.

	Cool Beans.  I first heard it at U.Lowell.

	Not!  When this was discussed on rec.arts.books, someone came
up with a few lines from Shakespeare that had the construction.  I'm
willing to accept that the Bill Murray skit is the first popular
contemporary usage.  Good skit.


Rita
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 10:03:04 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         QXN148%URIACC.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: flipping channels

>Posted on 15 Apr 1992 at 01:54:30 by Uriacc Mailer (002033)
>
>Re: flipping channels
>
>Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 23:51:58 MST
>Reply-To:     English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@UGA.BITNET>
>From:         Dan Lester <ALILESTE@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
>
>On Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:22:00 MDT The Ronin said:
>>Sayeth        Nancy Harwood <harwood@TENET.EDU>
>>
>>> I like that!  *Very* sneaky...I'll let you know if it works.
>>
>BTW, surprised that no one has commented that channel flipping MAY be a
>male behavior.  Or at least predominantly male, anyway.

Someone did say it was a male behavior.  I do it all the time but as someone
else has said, it is usually because nothing hold my interest.
>
>dan
Lisa
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 10:04:47 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Karen Kay <LL23%NEMOMUS.BITNET%UGA.CC.UGA.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: flipping channels
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

>         Actually, Doris' theory rings pretty true for my family.  My Dad
> and Brother actually *fight* over the goddamned thing.                t

There was a study last year that got a lot of media hype about the fact
that if your 'average' two-parent two-children-of-different genders     f
family watches TV, the father has the remote.  If he leaves the room for
any reason, he passes it to the son, regardless of age (may be ygr. than
dtr.)  It's sort of like weapons.  "Here's the remote, Joe, you take    watch
good care of the womenfolk."

My god, Rita, your family's normal! When I was at home, my dad shocked
the hell out of me by handing me the remote even though 3 brothers were
in the room.

Karen
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 09:14:45 -0400
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         droby%NOVA.TCS.TUFTS.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Danes
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              09 Apr 92 15:28:59 CDT." <9204091800.aa13853@Nova.TCS.Tufts.EDU>

Says "Natalie Maynor" <maynor@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>:
>
>"Several reports have recounted how Danes appreciate silence, being able
>to sit in one another's presence for long periods of time without feeling
>any need to talk and, indeed, finding visitors who insist on talking
>constantly too demanding.  They feel no urge to fill up silences with
>idle chatter." (p. 235)  And there are people of Danish extraction on
>WORDS-L??
>

	This accurately describes my family and myself, so I guess we must be
mostly Danish, though it's filtered through Scotland.

	Paul and his family tend to be a bit more talkative, even though
they also have Danish ancestry.  Must be the German influence.

- Don R
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:14:55 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN

> Well, maybe for a mailman or a janitor to be able to do their job, it's not.

Nor for a brain surgeon.  I would rather somebody chopping on my brain be
thinking about the meaning of what the anesthesiologist was telling her
than about the syntactical arrangement of the anesthesiologist's sentence.

> But they'll be unable to function in any situation that calls for a different
> linguistic tact than they are accustumed to using.

True.  I would have problems functioning in Finland for that very reason.

> I can't think of a writer, even an average one, who couldn't tell you an awful
> lot about the structure and patterns of the language in which they write.

I think we're moving away from the original topic here.
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 09:16:45 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Tushar Samant <tushar%ZAPHOD.UCHICAGO.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: So, Mr Fred ?

Faredun says :

>Mujee ganja kahaa maleegii?

Jabaan pe phodaa aaya hai kya yaar ?

For benefit of most esteemed sirs on list I must append this, dear
friend, but ganja ganja ganja what you are pitter-pattering man,
tell something or sit quiet ! Yaar, if you are coming from Bombay
then listen. No, no, listen. Listen. We are coming from Bhayandar,
where men are men and are lagaoing bhaang. We are not bloody living
in city on Napeansea Road and Cuffe Parade Shuffe Parade pulling
sistersleeping ganja and drinking charas waras on father's money.
Talking all time about ganja and all, you are complete gone case or
what ? Forgotten bloody famous Shiraz Ahmed song also ?

	... only city wusses
	are sistersleepin' ganjekusses

Don't know song ? Yaar you left city in mughal times or what ?

>the ships come in and smoke bidhii in tropical lassitude...

Beedi and lassi ? You are having piddle in meninges or something ?
Brother-in-law !!

tushar
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 00:22:25 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Tony Harminc <TONY%VM1.MCGILL.CA@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: budget sayings

On Mon, 6 Apr 1992 20:22:37 EDT Theresa Wild said:
>   The other day while dressing my 6 month old, I called her a
> squirm-budget, then looked at my husband and asked him if he had
> ever heard of that term.  He said no, but his mother and grandmother
> used the term fuss-budget a lot.  So did my family.  Does anyone
> know where these terms came from and is 'budget' the right word or
> a sound derrivative?

There is an article in the Spring, 92 issue of the _Skeptical Inquirer_
on Two 19th-Century Skeptics.  One of them, the mathematician Augustus
De Morgan, wrote a book called _A Budget of Paradoxes_.  The author of the
article (Milton Rothman) writes:

 To understand the title of the book we must take into account certain changes
 in the English language that have taken place since 1872.  A glance into the
 _Oxford English Dictionary_ informs us that the word "budget" has as its
 first meaning a "pouch, bag, or wallet, usually of leather".  In the third
 meaning given, the word has evolved to "the contents of the pouch".  Then
 we find that "Budget" is often used as the title for a journal, such as
 _The Pall Mall Budget_.  This seems to be the meaning we are looking for.
 A budget of paradoxes is a journal or collection of paradoxes.

[etymology of "paradox" deleted]

 Another archaic term used by De Morgan and also worth resurrecting is the
 word "crochet", which refers to an obsessive belief or preoccupation
 carried about by a paradoxer.

Well I'm not sure how (if at all) this applies, but it sounds as though
it ought to.

Tony H.
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 04:14:00 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Joan Boorstein <BOORSTEIN%UMBSKY.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      RE: More 50's stuff

Adam M Hartfield <AHARTFIE@DREW.BITNET> reminisces:

>Gads, all this talk about the 50's Cadillac is making me nostalgic
>for my father's 1973 Oldsmobile 98 Regency...what a barge.
>Unfortunately, he got rid of it a month before I got my permit.  I
>did get to drive it once, but that was at 30 mph down a single-laned
>street by my house.  I remember parking the boat in the parking lot
>of the place we were going to--I barely managed to squeeze the
>Enterprise (for that is what he called it) between two other cars.  I
>wish he had kept it for me, but no such luck.  Now when I go home I
>get to drive his Subaru sedan.  Yay.  I'm so tall and it's so small
>that when I go around turns one way, my knee hits the power window
>switches and both back windows go down, and when I turn the other
>way, my other knee hits the volume knob on the radio and I get
>blasted out.

Adam,
    I think you'd have liked our 1969 Olds 98 Town Sedan -- all white--
dubbed the Moby-mobile by some of my viol playing friends.  It sure
was great for ferrying instruments around -- it is now difficult
to find cars in which you can put a bass viola da gamba, let alone two
or three as this car could carry.  This car lasted until 1981 and was
replaced with a 1978 Chevrolet Caprice (spacious but not quite the boat
that the Olds was) which has now gone 100,00 miles and is rusting away slowly.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l