HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Apples Apples everywhere
Date: 21 Aug 92 11:18:17 -0500
Followup-To: rec.food.historic
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <5736@transfer.stratus.com>, moser@sw.stratus.com (Tom Moser) writes:
> I have about 6 apple trees in my yard and this year the apple crop
> in New England is supposed to be the best crop in 12 years. I have LOTS
> of green apples which are starting to ripen and fall off the tree.

Slicing and air drying is another traditional way to handle apples for storage.
Stewed dried apples and apple pie from dried apples were common "sauces"
in my grandmother's home.

Kay Klier
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: hewitt@gemed.com (Anthony V. Hewitt)
Subject: Re: Cornish pasties
Reply-To: hewitta@aslpet.med.ge.com
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Milwaukee, WI
	<1992Aug11.214920.3655@ils.nwu.edu>
	<1992Aug12.164139.28875@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:12:58

In Wales as recently as the fifties, it was common to bake a pasty, wrap it
in a towel and put it in the miner's lunchbox.  It would still be warm
several hours later when he ate it.  This implies a fairly dry recipe.

Cornish pasties are common in the Milwaukee area, even sold frozen in the
local supermarkets.  No mines around here, though.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony V. Hewitt                  Phone 414 548-5170 (GE Dialcom 8*320-5170)
Senior Physicist
General Electric Company             Fax 414 548-5197 (8*320-5197)
P.O.Box 414, W-641
Milwaukee, WI 53201                    Internet: hewitta@aslpet.med.ge.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: osborn@socs.uts.edu.au (Tom Osborn)
Subject: Re: Cornish pasties
Organization: Computing Sciences, Uni of Technology, Sydney.
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:44:01 GMT

jheath@CERIS.Purdue.EDU (Jim Heath) writes:

>From article <HEWITT.92Aug13181258@argus.gemed.com>, by hewitt@gemed.com (Anthony V. Hewitt):
>> In Wales as recently as the fifties, it was common to bake a pasty, wrap it
>> in a towel and put it in the miner's lunchbox.  It would still be warm
>> several hours later when he ate it.  This implies a fairly dry recipe.
>> 
>> Cornish pasties are common in the Milwaukee area, even sold frozen in the
>> local supermarkets.  No mines around here, though.

>Is there such a thing as an "Aussie pie" and if there is, is it
>the same as these pasties?  We found some microwavable "Aussie
>pies" and they are quite good.  I just wondered if they were
>similar.

The pastie is typically folded over and contains veges (carrot, turnip,
maybe beans, peas, ...) as well as some pretty low grade meat and a fair
amount of fat.

The "Aussie" pie (AKA meat pie) is almost always round (but you can get
square ones) - about 4-5 inches in diameter, and they only contain
meat (of the lowest kind) plus gravy and (of course) a fair amount of
fat (and well salted, too). Meat content is governed by regulations (in
New South Wales), and amounts to about 25% - but it is typically offal,
arteries, and other dubious bovine remnants). They are "juicier" than
pasties - ie, the gravy tends to dribble out and burn fingers.

"Special" pies would be so named (eg, curry, cheese [on top of meat pie],
potato [on top of meat pie], etc, vege pie ...]. The Government Railways have
been famous for their pies. 

They are quite accurately classified as junk food and eaten with Tomato
Sauce (Catsup), or green pea soup (in South Australia). 

I don't eat them. Not just because I'm a vegetarian - I know a baker who
makes them (cooks and bakers treat them the way Customs Officials treat
Illegal Aliens).

Cheers, Tomasso.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: jern@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Bob Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Imported food (was curry)
Reply-To: jern@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Bob Jernigan)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 20:52:10 GMT

In article <1488@adpplz.UUCP>, martin@adpgate.UUCP (Martin Golding) writes:
|> dcoder@u.washington.edu writes:

|> Imagine the Americas with no wine or beer...  southern US food without okra,
|> African, Indian, Chinese, and Thai food with no chile peppers.
|> 

Or for that matter, imagine American food with on chile peppers.  When I think
of the foods that have been a constant in my life I think first of chilis but
for some reason most people seem to associate chilis with Asia, African or
Mexican food.  I don't know the history well but didn't chilis originate on
the American continent?  Does anyone know detail of the migration of chilis
throughtout the world?

Bob Jernigan    jern@spaceaix.jhuapl.edu
From: alisg@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Curry:  A war rages on
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:27:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: Msu.0095EFBA.ACCF25A0
Reply-To: alisg@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

In article <1992Aug11.214610.13034@u.washington.edu>, dcoder@u.washington.edu writes:

>How much of the regional cooking in the  
>world is changing with the tendency of rapid communications and transport to  
>produce an increasingly homogenous world culture? 
>
>Dave Coder
>dcoder@u.washington.edu

Radio and television were also supposed to do away with regional speech
patterns and accents, but as anyone who has ventured out lately will have
noticed, it ain't happened. I wouldn't worry about regional cooking
disappearing. Even though I love a lot of foods that I didn't get when I was
growing up, I will always hold special those foods which I did get then.
Several recent threads on rec.food.cooking have made me painfully homesick for
southern cooking, especially a la Mom. A number of postings indicate that
Pennsylvanians have long food memories, too.

  ***************************************************************************
  * George 'Notso' Suttle            * When Time recently announced the     *
  * SUTTLE/LIB@RENNE.LIB.MONTANA.EDU * discovery of a miles-wide fungus,    *
  * alisg@MtsUnix1.bitnet            * the largest and possibly oldest      *
  * Fax: 406-994-2851                * known living thing, readers wrote in *
  *                                  * immediately to ask "Can I eat it?"   *
  ***************************************************************************
From: TONY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Tony Roder)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: how bout that eggplant recipe?
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:26:09 GMT
 <92233.085055TONY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
 <1992Aug20.202650.17578@terminator.cc.umich.edu>
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

In article <1992Aug20.202650.17578@terminator.cc.umich.edu>, vln@icpsr.umich.edu
(Victoria Neff) says:
>
>In article <92233.085055TONY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
>TONY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Tony Roder) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug20.131706.20239@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>>lrellick@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lorraine M Rellick) says:
>
>>Cut eggplant into 1/2 inch slices from bottom to top
>>Fry in olive oil until soft (it absorbs lotslotslots of oil)
>>Lay out slices on a large cookie pan
>>Cut ripe beefsteak (large) tomatoes into slices from bottom to top
>>Fry quickly in olive oil but do not allow them to disintegrate
>>Dispose them on top of eggplant slices (one slice per slice)
>>Chop (coarse crush) a lot of garlic and parsley together
>>Saute in the oil left in the pan
>>Scatter over the slices
>>Warm up in hot (350F) oven for a few minutes before serving
>>Left overs are also delicious as a cold apetizer
>
>This sounds WONDERFUL.  Why slice the vegetables from the bottom up?


I said 'slice from the bottom up' in order to indicate that the slicing
should produce discs rather than eggplant-shaped slices... which also
means that it's ok to slice from the top down :-)

Enjoy it either way..........

-----------------------------------
Tony Roder, speaking his mind .....
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Subject: Re: mongolian food processor (yoghurt)
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:54:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.214259.24166@u.washington.edu> dcoder@u.washington.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug3.013000.8101@trl.oz.au> starkie@eddore.trl.OZ.AU (Brad  
>Starkie) writes:
>[parts deleted]
>.. I always thought that the
>youghurt enzyme exists naturally in milk. In fact the
>traditional way of making it was to let milk stand for a few
>days.
>
>[other parts deleted]
>
>Yes, sort of. It's not an enzyme as an isolated protein, but rather the  
>bacteria (and yeasts) that are common contaminants as the cow, goat, horse, or  
>other mammal is milked. If you want a good yoghurt, inoculate fresh milk with  
>some yoghurt that you like. If done right (there are lots of books on the  
>subject), the inoculum will quickly takeover the indigenous flora.
>
Look to make sure the yogurt you like contains 'active cultures.'  Some
yogurt is sterilized as it is packed.

>A succession of microorganisms will appear in milk left to sit--bacteria then  
>eventually yeasts; then you'll be unable to stand the smell and you'll throw it  
>out.

A friend of mine said that her grandmother said you could tell the nature
of a household by how their milk soured:  if milk you left overnight was
nicely curded, tart, but sweet, then it was a good house to live in; if
it was foul and nasty and separated, then it would be a bad house to live
in.  An interesting piece of pre-microbiology folklore...

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Cornish pasties
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:19:02 GMT
Followup-To: rec.food.historic

Hello, all.  In article <Bt544q.G3p@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> Paul Lalonde writes:

>Well, I don't know much about the cornish pasties in particular, but I
>think that the flake pastry is a fairly recent innovation. 

Depends what you mean by recent.  There is a recipe for puff pastry in
Hugh Platt's _Delightes for Ladies_ (1609).  That's the earliest one I
am aware of, and I admit that I was surprised to find one that early,
but there it is.

>                                                            As I
>understand it, the main reason for carrying pasties about is that they 
>are portable food.  As such you don't particularly want a delicate flaky

Well, that's bound to be one reason _for carrying them about_ (;^), but it
does not seem to be the reason for their origin.  Medieval European cookbook 
collections such as _Forme of curye_, _Du fait du cuisine_, _Viandier_,
_Menagier de Paris_, and many, many others, include menus for feasts,
ranging from upper middle class to royal ones.  Virtually all such menus
include pasties of one sort or another.  It was simply one of the standard
ways food was prepared and presented at table.

But what you say may well be true after the 16th and early 17th century;
my cooking knowledge has a huge gap in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Cheers,

Terry Nutter    jtn@vtopus.cs.vt.edu     Blacksburg, VA     (703)552-1598
From: jern@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Bob Jernigan)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Cornish pasties
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:56:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: aplcen.1992Aug14.185643.15554
Reply-To: jern@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Bob Jernigan)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

I found the news group just a few days ago and on the first day I read it
there was discussion about Cornish Pasties, which I knew nothing about.  That 
evening my wife and I stopped by JK's Pub here in Columbia MD and voila! Cornish
Pasties on the menu.  The dough was heavy, somewhat like compressed pastry dough.
The filling was ground meat, potato(e)s, and carrots, all in a sauce, er, mixture,
that could stand up like jello - lots of corn starch.  

I would have been happier with pastie 1/4 the size and well prepared.

bob jernigan
From: jheath@CERIS.Purdue.EDU (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Cornish pasties
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:13:18 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

From article <HEWITT.92Aug13181258@argus.gemed.com>, by hewitt@gemed.com (Anthony V. Hewitt):
> In Wales as recently as the fifties, it was common to bake a pasty, wrap it
> in a towel and put it in the miner's lunchbox.  It would still be warm
> several hours later when he ate it.  This implies a fairly dry recipe.
> 
> Cornish pasties are common in the Milwaukee area, even sold frozen in the
> local supermarkets.  No mines around here, though.
>

Is there such a thing as an "Aussie pie" and if there is, is it
the same as these pasties?  We found some microwavable "Aussie
pies" and they are quite good.  I just wondered if they were
similar.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: justin@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)
Subject: Re: Imported food (was curry)
Organization: Many, Sundry, and Odd
	<1992Aug14.132424.15211@hemlock.cray.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:40:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.132424.15211@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com (David Adams) writes:
>[I'm not sure where the eggplant was,
>but I have the idea that was American too.]

Definitely not. We've done a feast based on 13th century Muslim Spain,
and found that a *large* percentage of the dishes are based on eggplant.
(Damned good stuff, too -- the Islamic cookbooks of that period have
some absolutely fabulous food in them...)

So, while it may well have been pretty much unknown to most of Europe
in the Middle Ages, it was certainly known to at least some cultures...

				-- Justin du Coeur
				   Who fried a few bazillion eggplant
				     fritters for that event. They all
				     got eaten, too...

Random Quote du Jour:

"Why is it that many folks find a malleable, very human document like
 the Society's Corpora, that was formed by the anvil and tongs of
 vigorous debate, and want to turn it into dead words engraved in marble?"
		-- Bertram of Bearington
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Imported food (was curry)
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:24:24 GMT
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article 26254@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu, jern@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Bob Jernigan) writes:
|In article <1488@adpplz.UUCP>, martin@adpgate.UUCP (Martin Golding) writes:
||> dcoder@u.washington.edu writes:
|
||> Imagine the Americas with no wine or beer...  southern US food without okra,
||> African, Indian, Chinese, and Thai food with no chile peppers.
||> 
|
|Or for that matter, imagine American food with on chile peppers.  When I think
|of the foods that have been a constant in my life I think first of chilis but
|for some reason most people seem to associate chilis with Asia, African or
|Mexican food.  I don't know the history well but didn't chilis originate on
|the American continent?  Does anyone know detail of the migration of chilis
|throughtout the world?
|
|Bob Jernigan    jern@spaceaix.jhuapl.edu

Clearly without the merging of the two world culinary wise, the Italians
would have no tomatoes.  India, China, etc., would have no [capsicum] peppers,
and Europe would have no potatoes.  [I'm not sure where the eggplant was,
but I have the idea that was American too.]

On the other hand, America never would have had bread, sourdough or yeasted,
wheat, rye, or barley.  

[Do we know that for a fact?  And what did the Norsemen eat when they came in 
the 13th Century?]

Pizza, and spagetti would have been impossibilities on either continent!  
[except tomato-less over there]

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: rlwilliams@gallua.gallaudet.edu
Subject: Re: QUESTION: Origins of Chili (pepper)ex
Organization: Gallaudet University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:44:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.085159.24957@spider.co.uk>, jimd@spider.co.uk (Jim Darroch) writes:
> Hi,
> 
> I know this thread has been discussed over in rec.food.cooking, but I 
> wasn't paying attention, so...
> 
> Is the Chili (i.e. "Chili Pepper", the small red/green hot thing)
> indigenous to India?  I know it's use is very common in Indian cooking,
> but I seem to remember reading that the plant is not a natural inhabitant 
> of India, but was introduced by travellers at some point in the 
> (relatively) recent past.
> 
> If this is the case (i.e. that the Chili is *not* a natural inhabitant
> of India) does anyone know from what part of the world it was brought
> into India, and the approximate time period during which this occured?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any info,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jim Darroch            *                          * jimd@spider.co.uk (email)
> Spider Systems Limited *    "Open To Everyone"    * 031 555 5166      (phone)
> Stanwell St, Edinburgh *                          * 031 555 0664        (fax)
==============
Since I was the one who asked the originial question "Why do some cultures
use chile and others do not?" let me say that the concensus of the group is 
that chiles (Members of the capsicum family) originated in the new world 
and were traded for diamonds, gold and real estate throughout the world. 

rlwilliams@gallua
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: Cornish pasties
Reply-To: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:24:55 GMT

In article <=93mlj.mdk1@netcom.com>, mdk1@netcom.com (Mark Kaplanoff) writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.214920.3655@ils.nwu.edu> wallis@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Mindy Wallis) writes:
>>In article <sooz.713482238@vincent1.iastate.edu>, sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F
>>Bradley) writes:
>>    Does anybody out there have a good recipe for authentic Cornish
>>pasties. I
>>> realize that they probably don't involve much - some meat, spices, etc. in a 
>>> flake pastry, but I'd like a reasonably authentic recipe. 
>>>    Ever so grateful!
>>
>>I can't answer your question, but maybe someone can answer mine:
>>
>>As far as I know Cornish pasties are virtually unknown in most regions of
>>the United States, but I found that they were sold in several places in the
>>Upper Penninsula of Michigan.  Does anyone know why?  Is there a large
>>Cornish population there, and if so, why? 
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Mindy
>>wallis@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
>>Institute for the Learning Sciences
>>Northwestern University
>>
>Many Cornishmen were traditionally miners (because of the tin mines in
>Cornwall).  It's just a guess, but might Cornishmen have gone to the
>Upper Peninsula of Michigan to work in the iron mines in the late
>nineteenth century?
>>
Pasties are common here (Montana), where mining is (still) a large industry.
I have pasty recipes, but I don't know how historic they are. 
I can post them;  anyone want the Butte Pasty recipe (c. 1992)?

Cheryl oopcv@trex.oscs.montana.edu<

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: jimb@milton.u.washington.edu (James Beardsley)
Subject: Food references
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:41:59 GMT

 


Greetings I am currently reading a series of books written by one
Partick O'brian. These books take place in (for the most part)
early 19th century England during the French English American
et all wars. The central characters are a sea captain and a doctor
and most of the action takes place at sea. There are common referals
to the food which is eaten which I (as a 20 century american) find
totally confusing. Any help with the following would be greatly
appreciated

1. Spotted Dog    This I take it is a pudding desert sort of thing
2. Soused Pigs Face  Another desert I think
3. Toasted Cheese  this seems to be a different dish from the sandwich
common today
4. Dead Baby ANother desert.
5.Saddle of mutton/veinson etc

Interesting books.

Thanks

Jim Beardsley Gold Star Farm Reg Shire and Paso Fino Horses Sultan WA
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: otten@icase.edu (John Otten)
Subject: Re: Cornish pasties
Organization: ICASE/NASA Langley
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:54:31 GMT

A friend of mine from Britain (who is up on all sorts of trivia items) told me that
the shape of the pastie - with the half moon shape, and the pressed together crust
around half of it - was so that the miners could hold the ends (like corn on the cob)
with their dirty hands, and eat most of it. The part that they held in their hands
(part of the crusts) was thrown away. 

He also said that "traditionally" (whatever that means :-) a pastie had meat, and
potatoes in one part, and some other sweeter(?) food in the other part, thus having
a dessert contained in the pastie along with the main meal.

John
otten@icase.edu
Xref: sparky rec.food.historic:343 rec.food.cooking:14990
From: Alan Deacon
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.food.cooking
Subject: REQUEST: hard skimmed-milk/whey cheese recipe
Date: 21 Aug 92 10:20:55 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

[Sorry if you see this twice, haven't got the hang of cross-posting yet]

Has anyone got a recipe/procedure for making hard cheese from skimmed milk
or whey? I understand this makes a very very hard cheese, rather like
Parmesan. It was a common cheese in the Middle Ages, and had very good
keeping qualities (if little else to recommend it). Suffolk Cheeses were
of this type, and jokingly were said to be hard enough to play bowls with.
The milk was probably ewes' milk, but I doubt if this is important. BTW
what are the main differences here between buttermilk and skimmed milk
(apart from taste) I'd think they would both have a very low fat content,
as does whey. The following is from British Country Cheeses, Pamela Westland,
Ward Lock Ltd., 1988

  The first type, which by any definition warranted the later derogatory
  term 'hard cheese', was an inferior produce made of skimmed milk and
  which, because of its low fat content, set rock hard with long storage.
  This cheese, unlike the moist and crumbly examples made in Roman Britain,
  never found its way to the rich man's table, but was the staple diet of
  servants, peasants, farm-workers and (because of its almost limitless
  keeping quality) merchant seamen.

And from Thomas Tusser

  Ghezie, Lot's wife, and Argus his eyes:		salty, dry, holey
  Tom piper, poor cobbler, and Lazarus' thighs:		blown, tough, spotty
  Rough Esau, with Maudlin, and Gentiles that scrall:	hairy, wet, maggoty
  With Bishop that burneth, thus know ye them all:	burnt milk taste

I know this doesn't sound too appetizing, but I'd like to have a go at
making some of this stuff - though I probably won't go quite as far as some 
of Tussers worst examples! All information gratefully received.
--
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic