From: bazyar@teal.csn.org (Jawaid Bazyar)
Subject: Re: Wakeup Muslims + Uncle Sam
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:34:56 GMT

jawad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Jawad Ali) writes:

>There is nothing to be gained by a blanket condemnation of the U.S, or
>from a conspiracy theory.  But even then the "morons" that you mention
>above are far more preferable to the "morons" who blindly acquit the
>U.S. of any and all oppression, aggression, and terrorism IN SPITE of
>any evidence to the contrary.  Read on.

  And I did not say there was no oppression _at all_.  Putting words
into my mouth to further your case against the United States is not going
to get you anywhere, especially in the minds of those who can easily see
through your garbage (which is most of the people here, I reckon).

  See, when you say "US" you're implying that the government and people
_as a whole_, every last one of them (or, I should say, every last white
male) are oppressing all other peoples in the US. That is simply not true.
"US" is _not_ a single entity, ever. Government is 50% new once every
10-12 years.  People change.

>The fact that these "sewers" exist, and that people live their entire
>lives in them, and chlidren grow up not knowing anything but the "sewer"
>-- it is all oppression.  The fact that a staggering majority of black
>people are concentrated in these "sewers" is oppression.  You are right
>that the resons for this are varied and complex, but nothing is as 
>simplistic as a blanket denial of this oppression.

  Nope.  "Oppression", with the 'ion' on the end of it, is a noun
derived directly from the verb that means "one is oppressing another". 
So when you say "the US is oppressing these people", you are
incorrect because you, _yourself_ are making a blanket statement.

>I can suggest definitions of the word that are far more meaningful
>than yours.  [Webster's: "Oppressive.  Burdensome; unjustly severe;
>tyrannical"].  Even a simple "injustice" would work better than 
>your definition that relies on the vague and undefinied notion of rights.

  The word "oppressive" is NOT the word "oppression".  They have
different meanings, believe it or not.  Now I'm beginning to think
that you don't have a firm enough grasp of English for a meaningful
discussion between us.  At least, your version of English is 
different from mine!

>>That simply cannot be shown to occur in the United States at all.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>This is not an emotional overstatement.  It is only a dispassionate
>conclusion from a preponderance of evidence.  I do not wish to indulge
>in a debate of what was the single greatest attrocity in history, but
>some of what has transpired in the name of this country can compete
>with the worst of what this world has to offer.

>Tens of millions of black people were killed or maimed in the most
>gruesome of manners, in passage to, and during slavery.  

  That's odd, I always thought that a slaveowner would try to take
good care of (in general) their "investment".  Wanton killing of
slaves as in the Roman days was the exception, not the rule, in American
slavery.
  So, the Americas had slaves for 300 years. Rome and Greece had slaves
for millenia. The African tribes from which the American Blacks came
took slaves.  I'm sorry, Jawad, but you can't blame the existence of
slaver tendencies in humans on America.
  As a final note on this point, a hell of a lot of Americans died to
help give blacks their freedom under the Constitution.  So go stuff 
yourself on this one.  I don't _owe_ any black person anything except 
what I give to all people: a fair shake.

>Entire
>nations of native people were decimated by the millions.  

  By smallpox.  Ever hear of smallpox?  It decimated nations of Europeans
as well.  You know, you'd think the Spaniards had atomic weapons in 
1492 when Columbus landed, because he's singlehandedly responsible
for the deaths of entire nations of people!  Amazing!
  The people who did kill Indians are all dead.  They're _dead_,
Jawad.  It's a whole new universe out there, and you need to adjust
to it.  I can feel sorry for it and act myself so that it will not
happen again, without having to grovel for forgiveness for the acts
of my ancestors.
  Actually, neither I nor my ancestors (who were Afghan immigrants from
20 years ago, and German immigrants from 130 years ago) held slaves,
'decimated' Indian tribes, oppressed entire nations of people. 
There are certain examples of particular acts taken by certain government
bodies and/or individuals that can be considered repressive, or
just plain wrong.  But on the whole, the citizens of the US do not
systematically oppress other peoples.  Even during slavery, over half
the states banned slavery, and many people were flat-out opposed to it.
A man of good sense who knew when the time was ripe for action became
President, and indeed when the time was right- the slaves were freed.

>It only
>seems like inflamatory language, but it is not -- these are all facts
>that are all very well documented in America's own history.  Both these
>races continue to feel the impact of that oppression that has never
>been corrected.  The systematic denial of the rights of these people,
>and that of many others, is also very well documented in American
>scholarship, journalism, and literature.

  That type of behavior is also very well documented in Roman and Greek
history, Turk history, Chinese history, Arab history (and _that_ one
continues _to this day_!), etc. etc. etc.  The evils of men did not
appear with the signing of the United States Constitution, I'm afraid.

>U.S's relationship with its neighbours to the south is an endless
>story of oppression.  I can point you to dozens of books that have
>carefuly catalogued the oppression of the peoples of the Carribean,
>South and Centeral America at the hands of the U.S.  

  Rome's relationship... is an endless story of oppression.  Greece's
relationship... is an endless... Britain's relationship...  Call it
what you will, the United States of America did not invent, and
does not have exclusive license on it.

  I can point you to several dozen books that have _very_ carefully
catalogued the evils streaming forth from a land called Mordor, 
and the great dark perpetrator of that evil, one Sauron.  The books
point to a little people, Hobbits, as the ones who took up the challenge
to defeat Sauron and make the world safe for the Big People (us) in
the Fourth Age of the Sun.

  Now, does "carefully catalogued" mean there is no bias, no stretching
of facts, no blatant lies?  Books are fine, but only tell what the author
wants you know.  Because it is in print does not mean it is truth.

>The evidence
>is overwhelming and incontrovertable, and for the most part relies
>on evidence from within the U.S. (including the government).  This
>is not a conspiracy theory.  Most of this evidence is accepted in
>scholarly circles, and is open only to dogmatic attack.  It is only
>swept aside for the purposes on national myth making.

  'Scholary Circles', like the hordes of liberals who would see the
United States turned into a Socialist country, run by their never-faltering
good sense and impeccable intelligence.  Just show me one other nation
with the US's responsibilities that handled things so well.  The
Soviet Union (RIP) sure didn't, and it was the Utopia all these
"scholarly circles" would have us all live in!

>Your statement above is true only in the vague and meaningless
>sense that NO oppression has ever taken place on this planet.  If you
>can dismiss the evidence of oppression in and by the U.S., then
>you can use the same reasoning to dismiss evidence of oppression
>agaist the Afghans by the Soviets; against the Jews by the Nazis;
>by the Saudis against their women and [insert your favorite oppressive
>relationship here].  What sort of evidence would you accept any way?

  No, once again I claimed that the U.S. and its citizens are not
engaged in a pogrom to exterminate all non-white-males; you, and
the people you allow to spoon-feed you all of these "US is the One
True Source of Evil" stories, just don't understand that.  You've
got to point your fingers, blame someone, _anyone_, for the
Perceived Evil Du'Jour.

>In fact, I suspect that the above is a statement of faith for you.
>By this I mean that you will cling to this obnoxious statement,
>REGARDLESS of any evidence that one might present to the contarary
>-- regardless of how scholarly, well documented, well supported,
>and widely accepted the evidence is.  Your position seems to be
>that no evidence should even be allowed against the U.S.  For the
>moment you open the possibility of evidence, the floodgates will
>open with evidence that this society itself has long accepted.
>(except, perhaps, in the lunatic fringes like David Duke and his
>followers, but even they have their tales of oppression).

  Oh, not at all.  Various governments in the US have done some stupid,
and generally-acknowledged-as-wrong-move things in the past, and
in the current administration.  Give us a break!  Who's perfect?
What Utopia do you seek?  Could _you_ have done a better job?

>- In the U.S. a black man is far more likely to be convicted of
>the same crime as a white person and recieve a harsher sentence.
>This has been well documented and has been going on for a long time.
>It is a systematic denial by one group's rights (of a fair trial) by
>another, and by your own terms, oppression.

  Black men are far more likely to have long criminal histories.
I'm not pointing fingers, but a long record usually is an easy
new conviction for _any_ jury.  Be careful of statistics; they can be made
to tell almost any story.

>- A few years ago the World Court (in spite of all the pressure)
>found the U.S. guilty of systematically mining the harbors of Nicaragua.
>Once again, using your definition, it is a clear example of the U.S.
>denying the rights (of economy, trade, and life) of another group.

  The CIA is a different story.  What did the World Court say about
the continual slaughter in Nicaragua?  Anything? Of course not.

>In case you are foolish enough to suggest that I made up the above,
>I will gladly furnish the scholarly refrences.  Unless you happen
>to believe that there is a gigantic conspiracy by the scholars, journalists,
>courts, literature, and common people of the world to unjustly
>implicate the U.S. in trumped-up charges.

  Not entirely trumped up, but shall we say, "modified".

  Finally, you said "I hope someone who shares in my belief will continue...".
Good luck.  I think in general we're far too pragmatic a bunch to fall
into the old trap of "biggest guy on the block is responsible for everything".

  Again, in no way do I claim (nor did I) that bad things have never
happened in/because of the US.  Why harp on it?  We make mistakes and
we move on.

  For a final point, and to show that good comes occasionally from a 
US military or other presence; why are we in Somalia?  To conquer
a resource-less desert nation?  To take its people into slavery?
No, to keep its own people from starving about two million of
its own.  Who's the oppressor?  Mark my words, before this is over, the 
people who have "carefully documented" all your other examples of Imperialist
Aggression will have proved to themselves and their circle of "scholars"
that we are there for no good.  There are some people who can never accept
any opinion other than their own, and these people are often-days called
"liberals" and run amok in Universities and think-tanks across the
country. <snicker>.
  A good <snicker> really satisfies, I'm afraid.  I ought to stop 
reading Mark Twain books.

  Disclamier: My opinions are subject to change without notice. Take with
a grain of salt unless you have high blood pressure.
-- 
 Jawaid Bazyar              |   Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environment
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