HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 14:17:18 EST
From: Barbara K. Laufersweiler <BJK111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Our Sunday Visitor HELP!

I seem to have completely misplaced the list of periodical
information that was posted fairly recently, which is a bit
frustrating since I would like to learn more about the new
catechism and Our Sunday Visitor seems to be planning a series
on it.

To make this shorter, would someone please be so kind as to
send me the list of periodical information?

Thanks VERY much.

Barbara
--
.........................................................................
                                        Barbara Kratz Laufersweiler
    Weather always looks worse          Dept of Meteorology, Penn State
       through a window                 bjk111@psuvm            (bitnet)
                                        bjk111@psuvm.psu.edu  (internet)

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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 12:16:42 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Communication Problems, Gregory XVI and (oh, no,
              not again) Railways
              Gregory XVI and (oh, no, not again) Railways" (Jan  7, 11:30am)

Martin, your erudite posting did indeed make it all the way to Hawaii,
thru storm and gale.  It sort of goes along with the idea of mine that
it takes a lot of nudging before the tradition and experience of the
church is going to be changed, but change does eventually come....
Shalom, Martin, and glad your plumbing is fixed  B^)
Len Howard          tas@pegasus.com
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 04:54:38 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 04-Jan-1993 0752" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: EWTN

>The only things that come even close are occasional programs on VISN or The
>Learning Channel (which recently did a marvelous program on recent
>archaeological developments in Jerusalem and Capernaum, for example).

If the Jerusalem show you're talking about on The Learning Channel is
what was on a few days ago (I think it might have even been Christmas
Day), it was manifestly anti-religious, ridiculing the concept of
divine inspiration of the Bible.

/john
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Stephen A. Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re: The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 8:1-11)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 03:13:02 GMT

In article <930112150207.2e008a57@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>Brent, I've never denied being a cafeteria Catholic. When the physical
>evidence conflicts with tradition or scripture, I choose the physical
>evidence as the truth. I thought you could have deduced that yourself,
>hence the "rhetoric":-)

   I take it, then, that you don't believe that Christ is physically
present in the Eucharist?  Because it is not possible to tell this
physically.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:45:13 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 8:1-11)
              in Adultery (John 8:1-11)" (Jan 11, 11:29pm)

Thomas, You make a point about "this is bit.listserve.catholic, not
b'.l'.ecumenical" which makes me wonder if you know that this actually
is free.catholic mailgroup which got added somehow to bitserve after
it had been going for a while, and also includes mail.anglican (or
somesuch other group) that also was added.  So we have lots of people
here other than Roman Catholics.  [always reminds me of the joke about
the walled off area of Heaven. When asked about it, St Peter said "Oh
that's the Catholics, they think they are the only ones up here."

Shalom, Thomas                         Len Howard - tas@pegasus.com
                                       episcopalian
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:37:30 EST
Reply-To:     tfm+Catholic@CS.CMU.EDU
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was
              Thomas_McGinnis@SEGNO.SOAR.CS.CMU.EDU
From:         Thomas McGinnis <tfm+Catholic@CS.CMU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Saints

In article <93011.160029MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>, Marty Helgesen
 <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>
>No, it is not accurate to say that only the Catholic Church
>canonizes saints.  The Eastern Orthodox Churches, and probably at least
>some of the Oriental Orthodox Churches do, too.

 (Hope this is general enough in interest to merit a post) I've heard of
the Eastern Orthodox Churches, of course, and I'm pretty sure I've heard
the phrase "Oriental Orthodox Churches" before as well, but never in the
same sentence, so I'd always presumed they were the same (they certainly
seem to mean the same thing). What's the difference? Thanks.

 (And I can't resist saying: If this has been discussed on this group
recently, I must have missed it by occident.... :-) )

>-------
>Marty Helgesen
>Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu
>
>"Experience beats in vain upon a congenital progressive."
>        --  C. S. Lewis

Pax et Bonum,
Tom.
--
Thomas F. McGinnis                                     tfm+Catholic@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891
Any opinions are mine except where noted, and not necessarily those of CMU.
spes mea in Deo                               nunc scripsi totum da mihi potum
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: anybody going to March for Life in Washington?
Date: 9 Jan 93 02:57:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


	Is anybody from this list going to be going to Washington for 
the March for Life?


 en agape,
 Bob 



=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
From: mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Ad Extirpanda
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:02:39 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.

This post failed to make it to the net first time round (7th December), but
I kept a copy, and John O has just asked about it again, so here it is.

In article <1992Dec3.165652.12537@news.nd.edu> jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:
>It seems Steve or anyone else attempting to answer your question will
>have serious difficulties without knowing more of the actual details of
>_Ad Extirpanda_.  I'm not trying to be difficult here.  But could you
>perhaps post the significant part of Innocent's statement.


"On similar grounds, Innocent IV unhappily sanctioned the use of torture in
the examination of supposed heretics. If the civil law was justified in
using torture to discover those who had stolen the goods of this world, it
could surely be employed in searching out heretics, who were thieves of
immortal souls. Innocent accordingly bade the civil authorities

 "force all captured heretics to confess, and to accuse their accomplices, by
 such torture as would not imperil life or injure limb, just as thieves and
 robbers are forced to accuse their accomplices and to confess their crimes.
 These heretics are true thieves, murderers of souls and robbers of the
 Sacraments of God" (Ad Extirpanda, 15th May 1252. Sources: Potthast 14592
 (= Reg. Pont. Rom. Berlin, 1874), translation from Vacandard, _The
 Inquisition_.)

"Unfortunately, in this particular of the treatment of heretics, Innocent
was a man of his age. ... The tendency which had set in to treat public
heretics with severity was considerably increased during his pontificate."

(Rt Rev Mgr H.K. Mann, _The lives of the Popes in the Middle Ages_, vol. 14,
'Innocent IV, The Magnificent, 1243-54', pp296-7. 1928.)

The same source states that Papal approval of torture was reiterated by Pope
Alexander IV.

Martin Barry.
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 09:53:34 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: R-movies in parochial school?

Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU> writes:

>At our parish school a couple of years ago, the seventh grade teacher who was
>a young male only recently out of college, let the several members of the
>class talk him into showing "The Lost Boys" on a party day.  Several kids in
>the class were offended & complained to parents who complained to the
>principal.  That teacher was gone two days later, as he should have been.

I suspect that showing the movie was just the tip of the iceberg, it hardly
seems grounds alone for dismissal of a qualified teacher.

>If the movie industry rated the movie "R", it probably was for a good reason.
>I'm a firm believer in parents speaking up on issues like this.  Sometimes the
>school administrators lose touch with what the teachers are doing. Just because
>its a Catholic school, it doesn't mean the teachers are exempt from poor
>judgement from time to time.  The teachers need to know that their actions are
>being monitored by concerned parents.

I totally agree, the trick is to convince the teacher that you are "concerned"
and not out for "revenge". If indeed, that "young-male-only-recently-out-of-
college"'s only showing of a lack of poor judgement was the showing of one movie
and this resulted in his being "gone two days later", then I would say that
the parents "concern" was for revenge and not improvement of the school system
or the teacher. My spouse and I often speak out on school and teacher practices
with which we don't agree, sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, but we're never
out for the teacher's job.

Then again, maybe I'm just sensitive to dumping teachers since I married one:-)
My wife's own story is that the nun, who was principal of the school she
first taught at, told her the pastor of the parish wanted to dump her before
her first day on the job when he found out that between the time she was
interviewed and hired (June) and when she started (August), she up and
changed her name (married me). The nun was able to convince the pastor
that you can't terminate her because she might get pregnant and leave.
Then again, maybe he was upset that she married me:-) - J.J.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:26:06 -0800
From:         mjsmith@CAC.WASHINGTON.EDU

Subject: Re:Lord's Prayer was The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 8:1-11)


In article <9301082252.AA13546@enet-gw.pa.dec.com>, you write:
|> >Not all tradition is Tradition.  For example, the doxology at the end of the
|> >Lord's Prayer ... how long did it take the scribe's addition to become
|> >tradition?  How long for the addition to be recognized as such and removed
|> >(but not from protestant versions)?
|>
|> I think you may have this story a bit confused...
|>
|> There is something about this doxology in the new catechism, but
 unfortunately
|> I've loaned my copy to one of my parish priests for the next few weeks.  In
|> any case, it's right there in the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Mass, separated
|> from the Lord's Prayer by a brief sentence spoken by the priest.
|>
|> In various Anglican liturgies, it either appears or doesn't appear, depending
|> on the nature of the liturgy.
|>
|> /john
I am aware that it is (now) included in the RC rite, and that Anglicans have
 mixed usage.  Talk to a Baptist, however, and they will refer to the Catholic
 vs. Protestant form.  I have not seen the catechism - the source of my
 information re: it's addition as a doxology by a scribe came from Biblical
 scholarship - Jerome Commentary I suspect though there are several other
 possible sources I could have picked it up from.  It was also mentioned in the
 homily of our Dominican pastor recently ... more or less as I gave it.

However, that ignores the point I was making entirely ... namely that something
 can be traditional but not Tradition (with a capital T)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: ajpg1322@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Angelo J. Paguia)
Subject: Are all saintly pronouncements right ?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 07:13:06 GMT

mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith ) writes:

>I think it was Augustine who said something to the effect that only the
>fundamental choice against God (freely, consciously, deliberately made) truly
>deserved to be called "sin".

A not so recent discussion with a co-worker regarding St. Augustine's
pronouncements on abortion (okay to the first trimester or something
like that--feel free to correct me), viewed from recent Church teachings
show that St. Augustine was, to put it gently, not so right on abortion.

Ever since, I have had a slight skepticism on viewing everything that 
a saint says as being right. Reading the above Augustinian quote by
Martha reminded me of this, since I did not find the quoted view as
agreeable in that it seems to reduce the weight of smaller sins. I'm
probably reading it wrong anyway, but can someone enlighten me on the
comprehensive correctness of saintly pronouncements on anything ?

Peace,
Angelo
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:46:51 MST
From:         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 8:1-11)

On Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:45:46 EST Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith) said:
>
>The Bible, when it condemns
>homosexual practices, is either referring to the worship of foreign gods
>or to homosexual rape, not homosexual sex between consenting adults.

Say what?  I don't believe this is the case Cindy. Even a casual reading of
the first Chapter of Romans makes it clear that homosexual practices are
not God's will.  I'd quote it, but I don't have my Bible with me.  I believe
Leviticus is clear on the matter also.

>
>Promiscuity is prohibited.  Sex with someone who is not one's spouse
>is also prohibited, being the definition of adultery.  What about a
>candidate who is in a stable relationship with a same-sex partner?

I know I'm really going to upset some people here, but I recently read of a
study of which I don't have the citation immediately available, that claimed
stable monogamous homosexual relationships were in the vast minority of
homosexual relationships.  This study claimed the average male homosexual goes
through several hundred homosexual partners in his lifetime.  Male homosexuals
with AIDS had, on average, approximately 1100 different partners over
their lifetime.  I'm not sure of the date of the study.  With the spread of
AIDS changing behaviors, those numbers may no longer reflect what is really
happening, but the numbers still illustrate that love and Godly intentions are
not the predominate criteria among most homosexual relationships.  That
doesn't mean I'm condemning them or that I hate them or that I'm "homophobic".
It simply means I follow God's Word.

>Is "sex" with a same-sex
>partner the same kind of sex that is condemned with respect to someone
>who is not one's spouse?  Scripture is not that specific.
>

Again Cindy, read Romans chapter 1.



Brent
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 10:44:09 -0800
From:         John Weitzel <weitzel@CIRRUS.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject:      help for a questioning couple

I received a phone call today from a good (evangelical christian) friend of
mine (we'll call her Char) concerning a friend of hers (Betty).  Betty grew
up Catholic, married a Catholic, each a professional, had one son (10yrs).
Betty and her husband are in their forties.  Anyway, Betty sees that many
evangelical chr  istians in her area (sparse area of Northern California) are
 really happy
and "have a spark".  The Catholic church there ( I have been there myself ) is
pretty dry from what I have seen.  There seems to be very little going on
beyond the Sunday liturgy (one priest).  She is now wondering whether to leave
 the church for what she sees as
the "excitement of the local evangelical churches".

My questions to you are:

1. What in general  would you advise this woman, couple, family?

2. Are there any books, videos, etc that you would recommend for them?

3. Do you see this as a recurring situation?  That is, in my studies of
psychology and counseling, it seems that a young married couple who is
spending most of their energy in obtaining a degree, starting a business/
career, and raising a child, at some point will   start working on their
 relationships with spouse and God, only after
they are established and the child/ren basically raised.

Thank you for your suggestions, I have some of my own, but you people seem
to have great wisdom and I will humbly take what you say into account.

So far I would suggest Marriage Encounter Weekend or Cursillo or some
related spiritual/personal endeavor, reading scripture, and finding
time for personal/private and family/couple prayer.  They are extremely
busy and find it difficult to find time to be together with GOD.

Thanks again.



John L Weitzel
Career/Academic Counselor
School of Engineering and Applied Science
UCLA

(310)825-2757

You may send a response to weitzel@cirrus.seas.ucla.edu
or post it here if you wish.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@artin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Communication Problems, Gregory XVI and (oh, no, not again) Railways
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:37:00 GMT

In article <6442@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry) writes:
>
>>I'm not sure how you drew the conclusion that I was examining the contents
>>of the book you mention.  On the face of it my statement indicates a
>>reminiscence of mine, upon reading the title.  Could you detail how you
>>drew the conclusion I was examining the contents of the book?
>
>(i) I read your post;
>(ii) I cleverly spotted the words "The title says it all";
>(iii) I cleverly inferred that you felt that, in some sense, the title said
>it all, or, to paraphrase, encapsulated the contents of the book;
>(iv) uh...
>(v) that's it.
>
>>I read, I clean, etc..  What do you do?
>
>Waste my time drivelling (and being drivelled at) in b.l.c.
>
>Martin.

By the way Marting, I note with dismay that while answering these two questions
you decline to answer the other two main ones of this post:

	1) Why you think there is such a clear and distinct dichotomy between
		"agreeing" and "thinking" on the one hand and "submitting"
		on the other, impying that to submit is not to think?

	2) Whether in reading the histories of those hisotical Church events
		at which you have not been present, you are thinking and
		agreeing with the authors of those histories, or submitting
		to their authority?

		Subquestion: if you answer "thinking and agreeing", upon
		what independent knowledge do you base your thought and
		agreement?

Peace,
John O'Callaghan
Return-Path: cms@dragon.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1993 21:17:08 EST
From:         "Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith)" <cms@DRAGON.COM>
Subject: Re: All the Women of the Bible

I'm thinking about teaching an adult Bible study group at our church on
women in the Bible.  I thought I'd use as a text (in addition to the
Bible, of course!) ALL OF THE WOMEN OF THE BIBLE by Edith Deen.  This is
a wonderful book, a large paperback, and should provide good background
material.  Unfortunately, it does not contain the Deuterocanonicals.
Since some of the best stories on women are Deuterocanonical, I'd like to
know if anyone is familiar with any other books on women in the Bible
that includes all the books of the Bible.  I have the WOMEN'S BIBLE
COMMENTARY edited by Carol Newsom and Sharon Ringe, but, as a hardback,
it would be relatively expensive.  Does anyone know if this book has
come out in paperback yet?  (It's 1992.)  Has anyone out there had any
experience teaching about women in the Bible?  Comments, suggestions, etc.,
most welcome.

In Jesus Son of Mary,

Cindy Smith
cms@dragon.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: zerucha@shell.portal.com (Thomas E Zerucha)
Subject: Re: help for a questioning couple
Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:04:40 GMT

I too was attracted by the emotional excitement of evangelicalism.  However,
though I was non-practicing for a long time, I didn't become evangelical for
the following reasons:

1. They stated that I was saved at the point I "accepted" Jesus, but everything
stopped there.  There was never a time I didn't accept Jesus, merely increasing
in knowledge.  But what about sin?  Evangelicals sommit sin, but believe it
does not separate them from God.  Also, the sin nature doesn't disappear upon
conversion, but then how can someone get into heaven (that is, without
purgatory).  Luther said that God chooses to ignore it (like a cloth over
a cancerous boil).  That is a bit like bringing a wild animal in your house -
not domesticating it first.

2. The only thing the thousands of protestant denominations have in common is
that they are not Catholic.  If *sola scriptura* is a valid method of
discovering truth, whow can two intelligent, rational, reasonable people
come to different conclusions with similar data.  Ask several people how much
is 2+2 and you get a uniform answer.  Ask whether infant baptism or post
conversion baptism is valid and you can get many answers.

3. While the catholic church has been busy disassembling itself, I managed to
find a core of faith that is the one that goes back to the apostles.  It took
some effort, and finding the conservative wing, but once found, it was what
I was supposed to believe.  I am slowly addressing my insufficient cathechism
(and some that I have seen are chate-schism and I am thankful that I was not
taught that).

I can recommend a book: Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating who also
runs Catholic Answeres, a magazine of catholic apologetics; and some tapes,
all by Scott Hahn, a presbeterian minister that converted.

---
zerucha@shell.portal.com - main email address
zerucha@fim001.ets.ford.com - work address
Thomas Zerucha / 24075 Lee Baker / Southfield MI 48075 - hardcopy
(313)594-4941 - work phone
From: wbs@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Brian Stewart)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: The Unauthorised Version
Keywords: index
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:23:38 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

I wonder if anyone out there can help me?

I have been told that some bishop somewhere has
``banned'' the book 

The Unauthorised Version, by Robin Lane-Fox.

Does anyone know which bishop? 
Does anyone know why?

Thank you.

Brian Stewart.