From: boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser)
Subject: Re: sunrise, sunset...sunrise, sunset...
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 00:23:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley) writes:
>boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser) writes:
>>May I ask what is wrong with poobear's cutting?  Why is ice better?  Why
>>is everybody trying to make poobear do something else?  I see no
>>evidence that what poobear is doing is incorrect.  After all, the price
>>is poobear's to pay, and noone else's.  And dont say that its wrong
>>to hurt yourself..  cause it isnt, and we all do that every day.
>>I can understand suggesting new methods to deal with pain, but why
>>must these other methods be implicitly better?
>
>i absolutely disagree with what you are suggesting and am shocked that
>you say poohbear must "pay the price" - for *WHAT*???? i am trying not
>to let my anger at your apparent insensitivity towards this situation
>cloud my reply, as i am unsure of where you are coming from to cause
>you to condone inflicting possibly fatal wounds on oneself. 

I do condone it.  I even condone suicide.  I happen to believe that
a persons right to do as they wish with their body and life is
absolute and implicit.

By paying the price I mean that poobear is the one that must put
up with the therapist who is trying to save her from herself, having
to put up with the questions from the emergency room people asking
questions, and with the possibility of someone locking her up.

Her wounds are her choice.  In fact, in her posting she did not ask
for alternative choices, she complained that people didnt understand
why she would do such a thing, and that the problems from others were
getting frustrating.

>firstly, no one is trying to *make* poohbear or anyone else, do
>anything. poohbear posted here in obvious distress about the cutting
>and it seemed to me (and i gather from the replies of others) that our
>advice and support was requested on how to deal with it. poohbear

No, this is not true.  Poobear posted saying that she was having a
a bad time, and that she was cutting herself.  All of a sudden
everybody comes out with 'suggestions' like the ice and writing and
exercising, saying 'dont hurt yourself'.  Thats what Im complaining
about.

>poobear
>certainly did not appear to be "happy" about what was happening and
>did not seem to feel that it was a "correct" way to deal with the pain
>being experienced. ice was suggested i believe because it still causes
>some level of physical pain but is not as potentially dangerous as
>cutting. also as it melts it may imitate the feeling of blood - the
>red ink would also do the same. we uggested alternatives to cutting,
>not to dismiss poohbear's pain, but to minimize the danger and trauma
>he/she (sorry poohbear, i don't know if you're a man or a woman ;-))
>was experiencing. the "wrong" (your word) thing about cutting to me,
>is that it could be fatal, and i for one don't want to see this
>happen to poohbear. if alternate less dangerous ways of causing pain
>to oneself can be found, i ask you - why deny them to someone?

Oh, Im not denying them to poobear or anybody else.  We all must
deal with our crosses in our own way.  By the same token, telling
poobear that inflicting pain on herself was wrong, and to try something
else wasnt very understanding either.

>poohbear (an none of us) must "pay the price" as you suggest. poohbear
>is *not* responsible for what is causing the underlying pain and i
>feel thatyour suggestion that he/she must pay the price suggests
>responsibility for thisi feel thatyour suggestion that he/she must pay
>the price suggests responsibility for this.

But we are responsable.  Sure, poobear isnt responsable for the things
that were done to her, but she is responsable for how she deals with it.
She has to find her own way of looking at things, to find her own path.

> i also see it as damaging,
>as it could affirm any feelings of self blame and doubt that poohbear
>may have. like "see, i knew it was my fault, i *am* to blame therefore
>i must be punished and hurt myself some more". is this what you would
>see poohbear do? i think it *is* wrong to hurt oneself - i can see why
>it is done and have done similar things to myself, but nothing can be
>gained by your Self by inflicting pain on yourself.

This is where we differ.  I think it is not wrong to hurt oneself,
and that we all do it every single day of our lives.  And that it
is possible to gain from it, to use it to evoke change, to use it
to shape emotions and make the tools needed to cope with the world.

>i see my goal as a
>survivir to STOP the hurting by others and myself and live the rest of
>my life as free of pain as possible. it begins with taking care of
>*me*; only then can i protect myself against others.

I have strong misgivings myself about this.  Ever time I made up my
mind and decided that the pain was wrong and I wanted to stop it,
I curled up and locked myself away.  There is no way to save people
from themselves, and giving them love to help them see your way is
pretty manipulative.  My aunt does this..  I love you but youve got
to stop doing this..  or start doing this..

People are, they love, they hate, they feel pain, they feel joy.
Every time one of these things is taken from us, we cease being
human.

>i can't speak for poohbear of course, but it seemed from posts
>thathe/she was seeking ways to end the pain also. 

Well, this is true.  But then again, she comes to the group and tells
how badly she is feeling, and gets lots of replys saying poor baby,
heres a hug.  Let me help you feel better.  Then trying to show her
all these other ways.

And these ways didnt work, did they?  She still came back to the cutting,
as the other things didnt fill the need that cutting did.  It sounds
alot like a compulsive eater going on a diet..  the will power works
for a while, but sooner or later, the basic supply and demand reassert
themselves.

>ad to poohbear, *you do NOT* have any price to pay - you've "paid"
>already a hundred times over. you are a good and special person who
>does not deserve pain; i hope  you continue to heal safely.

<frown>  I have yet to meet a person who was not paying, who finished
up the payments and could then go on to a bright and better future.

All I see are sad, lonely people, all too aware of the pain thats out
there, and not letting that beat them into submission.  They stand
proud, their shoulders slumped under the heavy weight of pain, and
they still manage to smile every now and then.

>sally
>>.....jeff


.....jeff