HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 19:45:16 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  I wrote:

> The swastika and the pentagram may not be registered in SCA armory
> because the corporation does not want to give its sanction to the use of
> these symbols which are intimately associated in the modern mind with
> mass murder.

Since there seems to be some misunderstanding, let me offer a
clarification: The corporation's ruling applies to SCA armory, and only to
SCA armory.  You can display pentacles in any other context.  The
corporation does not regulate decoration; if you really wanted to come to
an event festooned in swastikas, there is no rule to stop you.

Peter Harrison replied:

> Come, now.  Please don't tell me you think there is _any_ religious symbol
> not associated with mass murder.

You are certainly correct, but the SCA, Inc. exists and conducts business
is the 20th century, primarily in North America.  Therefore, when it
considers the dangers of popular misunderstanding, it focuses on popular
perceptions in that world.  How the cross was viewed in 13th century Egypt,
or how the US flag is viewed in modern Iran is not relevent to this
discussion: In upholding the ban on pentacles in SCA armory, the
corporation was not making a moral judgement.  It was simply protecting its
_business_ interests.

> The U.S.A. ... [was] built on a framework of tolerance for individual
> expressions of political and personal belief. 

Indeed, but not to the point of endangering others.  In the realm of
personal rights where the Bill of Rights operates, there are obvious
exceptions: You do not have the right to express yourself by standing up in
a crowded theater and yelling "Fire!".  But the current question does not
deal only with your personal expression; it also deals with using the
resources of the SCA, Inc.  The corporation has every right to decide how
its resources will be used and it certainly has a right to refrain from
activities which it believes will endanger itself.

> The Constitution has the balls to stand up to that kind of opression.  No
> one should have the right to tell me what religions are "acceptable."

Depends on the context: I have every right to tell you what you can do in
my home.  I am a private person, and I have the right to run my own affairs
as I see fit.  The SCA, Inc. (like every corporation) is a private
organization, and within limits it also has the right to run its own
affairs.  You can express your religion any way you want USING YOUR OWN
RESOURCES.  Once you start using the corporation's resources, you're in
someone else's home and you have to respect his opinion.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 17:50:09 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Costner "Robin Hood" errors:

Not only did "Prince of Thieves" have a bad cast -- the story
is also full of errors.

A text at the beginning says that King Richard went to the
Holy Land to fight the Turks. But the Turks did not take
Palestine until 1577. In Richard's days, the crusader's enemies
were Arabs; Saladin was an Egyptian of Kurdish descent.

When the prisoners are having their hands cut off at the
opening of the film, the headsman puts the prisoner's arm
on a *steel* anvil. If this was real, he would quickly
ruin the edge on his ridiculously oversized scimitar.
In reality, a wooden block was used. And probably an axe.

When Robin & co. escape, they climb out of a modern manhole
in the street. It is possible that the Arabs had good sewage
even in those days, but a manhole with a metal lid, in the
middle of a street? No way.

Robin's father writes a letter asking news of his son; the
hand is clearly a 19th century chancery-style script, very
different from the bastarda or minuscules a real 12th century
writer would have used.

When Robin's father rides out, he is overwhelmed by some
20 men on foot. A mounted knight could easily have broken
through such a skirmish line, killig a couple, and escape.

When Robin and Azeem land on the English shore, Robin says:
"By nightfall we shall feast in my father's castle". I wonder how
he was planning to get from the south coast to the vicinity of
Nottingham in just one day, on foot. The distance is at least
200 miles.

Irish Wolfhounds are used to hunt the boy poacher; it seems an
unlikely choice for such a task. I am not even sure that the race
existed in England at that time. 

If you have spotted any other stupid wrongos, do tell.

William

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:21:19 GMT

In article <199209092313.AA15413@meryl.csd.uu.se>, vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:

> >Now if Hollywood made a film about the life of Richard I, and it
> >came across as RH, then you would be justified in making an educated
> >remonstration.
> 
> I think it is just as justified here, for the stated reason: the film
> claims to be set in 12th century England -- so I expect it to have
> a reasonable semblance to that time and place. Further, my complaints
> pertained to various types of errors: anachronisms (the telescope),
> practical errors (the anvil), holes in the script (walking 200 miles
> in one day), historical inaccuracies (Locksley's handwriting, pewter
> arrowheads, stealing 5 million gold crowns), cinematic mistakes
> (Sherwood coniferous/foliiferous), and so on...

This bit of the thread has become a bit nasty, but I have to agree with
William. The movie even had little historical subtitles occasionally
telling us when and where we were ('South Coast of England, 1156 AD, tea-time'
or some such). If they weren't setting the movie in a historical period, why
did they use this convention of historical movies? It was a fantasy, but
it was passing itself off as history, and THAT'S the problem.

Tim O'Neill
Tasmanian Devil
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Courtesy (was Re: awards recognition)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 19:13:24 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

I'd like to applaud Corun's comments on courtesy; they are very much to the
point.  

However, I'd like to comment on one point.  Corun wrote:

> My point is that courtesy must be something that we should expect of each
> and every member of the Society regardless of whatever else they have done
> in fighting, service, or A&S... It is courtesy that will keep people from
> taking more land than they need, and will keep the cars in the propler
> parking lots. It is courtesy that will be the measure of who we are as
> human beings. 

and also:

> I have heard of Courts of Chivalry, and banishments and the like, and have
> seen them as only a cursory handslapping during the period of someone's
> reign, or more accuratly, six months. After that period the person's rights
> are fully restored. I have never heard of an instance where someone's awards
> were taken away from them, and certainly not permanently.

The second passage surprised me: I think the point that you were trying to
make is excellently elucidated in the first passage: It is courtesy and
respect for each other that makes the Society work, not rules and
punishments.  Courts of Chivalry can never work as instruments of
punishment, because they can't mete out any significant punishment.
Stripping someone of his awards, or banishing him for a few months is only
going to make him angrier and more eager to revenge himself.  It gives
everyone else the opportunity to embroider the truth, pass rumors around,
and pile one exaggeration atop another, without being able to check against
the reality of the gentle's real behavior.  Short of throwing someone out
of the Society altogether, official sanctions are useless.  

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: purp@wixer.cactus.org (Jim Meyer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mundane/SCA hopefull, needs German Surname refferences...
Date: 15 Sep 92 17:06:21 GMT
Organization: Collegium Turris Animarum, Bryn Gwylad, Ansteorra

Well, Master Vaughan, by spending a few hours in the local public
library, I was able to glean the fine appelation you see at the bottom
of this letter. The reference I used were simply a French/English
dictionary, a dictionary of surnames (which listed origins, meanings,
and in many cases, famous bearers of the surname), and a dictionary of
given names translated into other languages. All but the language
dictionary were in the "Heraldry" section of the reference stacks.
 
Good luck!

--Julien
-- 
+--------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
|  Julien Finaudere' du Main Pourpre         |  Jim Meyer DoD#680      |
|  Collegium Turris Animarum, Bryn Gwylad    |  purp@wixer.cactus.org  |
+--------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brunner@lakota.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Subject: Re: Inflammatory rhetoric (History v. dreams, period songs, consort gender)
Organization: Space Systems/Loral
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:12:41 GMT

In article <ewright.716054961@convex.convex.com>, ewright@convex.com (Edward V.
Wright) writes:
!! If the purpose of the Corpora is to discriminate against
!! homosexuals by not allowing them on the throne, why does
!! it prohibit many heterosexuals from sitting on the throne
!! as well? 
!! 
!! -- Nicholas van Leyden

Please, M'Lord... Lords & Ladies of all sexual persuasions are
equally invited to train at the stick, fight for the honor of
the crown, and to rule, reguardless of who their loved one is.
Were I ever to train and fight and win (shortly after Gerald
Ford wins the world golf open) my chosen inspiration and queen
would not be my wife... she is busy with 6 children, and has no
covey of retainers to allow her to rest on her laurels at court
nor take the time and effort of running a kingdom. She is a mother
first, foremost, and thats' about it. Any ladies with 6 children
all age 10 and under will agree...
So be content with what the world allows, there is much to enjoy
and little to gain by complaint.

In your service (if you ever need the assistance of a drakkar
that wanders far and wide) Hrolf Straker.


-- 
Columbus didn't even `discover' that he got lost by 8,000 miles!
brunner@lakota.ssd.loral.com; Space Systems/Loral; Palo Alto, Calif.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Alan Kerr)
Subject: Re: safety for marshals 
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 22:34:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep04.175328.20709@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!  Aldric wrote:
>
>> ...so what else is used in the other laural kindoms and would it be
>> possible to come up with some sort of 'standard' to be used
>> everywhere?  and how hard would this be?
>
>Why do we need a standard?  Currently, the system is fairly clear: Anyone
>on the field who isn't in armor isn't a legal target.  Are there many cases
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of marshalls and scouts being hit by fighters?  Is there really a problem
>here to be solved?

the above is part of the problem.  The marshals that I have seen hit
(actually, most have been 'nearly' hit) are the one that wear that
'puffy' High Renassaince garb *and* have a similar looking set of
'puffy' armor.  Except for the helm, you really can't tell if they're
in armor or not.  ...and from the back, it can be *real* hard.  The
thing that saved most of the marshals is the person that would have
struck them noticed that he didn't have a helm while waiting to engage
him.

and to Mark (Tibor), I see your point about scouts.  I still would
like something more quickly recognizable for marshals.

another problem is that a *moving* marshal (who is obviously avoiding
the fighting) can often look like a 'flanker'.  There are many
fighters that will throw a 'defencive shap shot' in the direction of a
flanker that they *just* noticed out of the corner of their eye.

and to address the question of whether there is a problem.... I don't
think there is...*yet*.  But as the SCA grows, I see it becoming a
problem soon.  As larger and larger battles are fought, the safety
problem becomes greater.  I rather see this addressed and *something*
come out of it before large melees start becoming less fun due to the
danger and 'little accidents'.

Aldric MacGlynn

-- 
Alan W. Kerr                               awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu
National Radio Astronomy Observatory       awkerr@nrao.bitnet
Socorro, NM, USA                           uunet!nrao.edu!awkerr
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A thought on Rialto
Summary: A modification
Date: 14 Sep 92 03:09:44 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

From the discussion I saw, there was considerable support for the
idea of having a list of experts, by topic, which could be posted
to the Rialto on a monthly basis.  One person has volunteered to
maintain this list.  I will check whether he is still interested.

I hesitate to appoint the experts, although I have a number in mind
already.  If you wish to volunteer, please send e-mail to me.  Please
specify the topic you are volunteering to be expert for.  I will
compile the initial list and pass it on to the eventual maintainer.

From the discussion I saw, there was less support for having any sort
of tacit agreement to let the expert on a subject respond to questions
first.

There was some support for sending our own basic questions to the
experts.  Obviously, if we do this, the experts may choose to post the
question to the Rialto, at their own discretions.  ("Many people have
asked ..." or "This is a particularly instructive question" or "Here is
a question I can't answer.")
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: rday@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Robert E Day)
Subject: Re: Town Battle at the War
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:08:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.174420.24285@socrates.umd.edu> sussman@socrates.umd.edu (J
eff Sussman) writes:
>In article <Bu8B1z.LCM@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S.
 Nusbacher) writes:
>>
>>How about armouring the marshals who are in the thick of things?
>
>The marshals most important defense is identification.  Putting armor on the
>marshals will mean that a given blow will hurt less but that they will get
>hit much more often.

The rule about scouts(at Pensic) said something like "hit a scout, lose your 
authorization card". This _made_ people look for those white diamonds on the 
helms. If the marshals want to wear full armor, they need to use the white 
diamonds(or something like that). This should cut down on the intentional blows
thrown at them.
-- 
If the price that I must pay to obtain my *  Robert E. Day/Syr Otto von    *
freedom, is to acknowledge that the Gov-  *  Schwartzkatz, Shire Mugmort   *
ernmet was granted the power to infringe  *  Barony Middle Marches,        *
on them, then I am not free. Paul Anderson*  Middle Kingdom                *
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:58:19 GMT

Any chance of seeing an abstract of Pennsic statistics?  I would be particularly
keen on seeing stats on kingdom allegiance.

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:48:58 GMT

Hal Ravn gives an accounting of the $25 dollars spent at Beltane, being
site fee, and privies.  The site had showers, and a lake, and off-site
parking.  He then asks:

  What more does one need?

Not much.  At Pennsic, what do you get?  Miles of ropes to divide the
land up, as well as stakes to hold the ropes up.  Each road which runs
between each area has a name, and is labelled with a road sign.

Message boards, and maps for the heralds to cry the encampment. Rented
tents for the heralds to run heraldic cry's, and consult in.

Rented tents for the troll, chirurgeons, newsletter, information booth,
security, archery fields, woods battle and field battle. More tents for
Arts and Sciences classes.  Supplies for the chirurgeons, as well as
a mobile trailer with running water and lights.

Hundreds, if not thousands of water bottles, and water to fill them,
and Sports Drink for the battles.  Graded roads.  Hay Bales to make
bridges and town battles.  Free parking.

Set ups for hundreds of merchants, as well as a site book that contained
a map of where each merchant was.  Schedules printed in the books for
Arts and Sciences classes, as well as electricty, running water, tables
and chairs for the classes.

A large Barn for evening use, with more tables, chairs, daises and so forth.
Security patrol, which had walkie talkies for them, the chirurgeons, and
the autocrat.  Archery targets.  A mobile radio station for setup in
the woods battles.  Multiple emergency vehicles and crews for medical care
during battles.  Miles of tape to tape off the woods battle.

What else did we get that I forgot?  I dunno.  We didn't *need* it,
but there it was.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Black Armor (was Re: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle ) )
Keywords: Songs, Morgan Elandris
Date: 15 Sep 92 23:02:02 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House

Somebody called him Alaric Bowbreaker.  Somebody else called him Aldric
Bowbreaker.  Real name:  Alric Bowbreaker.

Alive and well and living in California, along with a lot of other Old
Thescorreans...

Aryk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Pentagrams / consort gender
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 16:25:10 GMT

  This is about the pentagram controversy, but this post seemed
particularly nice ...

In article <1992Sep2.165311.11973@access.digex.com>, thom@access.digex.com 
(The Elf-Lad) writes:
> 
> People who mistrust/dislike the SCA are not going to alter their
> opinions just because the BOD tries to appease them by tacitly
> approving their hatred. We may as well make the Society a place
> that welcomes those who *do* want to participate in it.


  There are plenty of examples of religious symbols from the
Mogan David to the Crucifix being used right along with with
pentagrams, inverted triangles, and even unicorns and rainbows
in criminal acts.

  If you talk with your local police department and get a list
of their "warning signs" for occult activities, you'll see
a LOT of symbols on their list which will suprise you -- circles,
hexes, tear-drops, and an endless list of garbage symbols which
fell out of popular culture and were picked up by "dabblers"
trying to have their own twisted kind of fun.

  If you want to start outlawing particular preferences and
symbols because there is popular hatred of them, then you
might as well pull the plug completely and outlaw your own
incorporation -- because I'll tell you right now that "playing
nice" is not going to get SCA accepted by any of the raving
groups that want you to fall off of the face of the earth.

  Since only _MY_PARTICULAR_ religious symbology has been
outlawed, I can see no reason to accept the invitation my
friends have extended to start doing blacksmithing for the
Twin Cities organization.  I not only deny the invitation,
but I swear that I will do my level best to get your homophobic,
intolerant, and discriminating little organization boycotted
by my friends until this purge of "undesirable" symbols, 
preferences, and religions is ended.

  Have a nice crusade and a pleasant inquisition ... I'll
be on the other side of the fence lobbing arrows at you any
chance I get.

  Not lurking any more ... Ciaran.

  $uslinit; include oblig.sig <<
  "...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
   cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy."  -- Sappho >>
From: samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Robin hood recast
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:34:45 GMT
Organization: Ex-Hightower type

In article <715422381.F00002@ocitor.fidonet> Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt) writes:
> The Sheriff of Nottingham: (I take the Fifth Amendment!)

	Randall of Hightower (R.I.P., sadly) of course!

> King Richard: Siegfried v. Hoefflichkeit

	Excellent!

> Prince John: (see Sheriff!)

	Harold of Breakstone.

	. . . This from far-off & ancient times . . .

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com 		      UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy)
Subject: freely distributable dance music
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:17:34 GMT

Greetings all - the people running the dancing at Pennsic next year are
looking for freely distributable (within the SCA, anyway) arrangements
of dance music.  If you know of sources for such, *even just one piece*,
please contact me with the information.  I suspect that we'll be in especial
need of arrangements for pre-1600 dances that have not been done much
at previous Pennsics.  So, if you have arrangements for Italian, Burgundian,
French, the Inns of Court dances, etc., here's your chance to get your
music played...

Also, I am trying to locate someone named "Ariana", who has written some
arrangements of period dance music.  If you have contact information,
please let me know.

Your servant,
  Miklos
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: thom@access.digex.com (The Elf-Lad)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:44:14 GMT

bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:

>Yes, the SCA was founded by dreamers.  But their's (and mine) was a
>dream of Arthur and the Round Table, Richard Lionheart, Harald
>Hardraadi, Byzantium and the Crusades, St. Louis, Jean d'Arc, and the
>Renaissnace visions of Leonardo, Michelangelo, and Raphael (the artists,
>not the turtles), not the dreams of Elfquest, D&D, or Glenda the Good
>Fairy.

My nom de posting notwithstanding, when I play at SCA, I take it
seriously. I do not attend SCA events in the persona of an "elf."
One boorish e-mail respondent suggested that my arguments would
be taken more seriously if I did not sign my posts thus. Well,
at least he's consistent... ad hominem attacks and logical
inconsistency are certainly well-documented in period. 

Now, I find it interesting that Michelangelo and Jean d'Arc are
brought up, by another poster, in support of a "dream" that many 
would like to see exclude gay people and pagans.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, Michael, but I'd suggest
that your use of the phrase "Glenda the Good Fairy" could be 
construed as very offensive, especially in light of the source of
this thread. As you no doubt know, Glinda was a witch; "fairy" is
a rude euphemism for a gay man.

-- 
Thom Watson, the Elf-Lad         elf-lad@access.digex.com <-----preferred
                                 elf-lad@aol.com         elflad0@glib.org
                                 thom.watson@p924.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org
                                 GEmail=T.WATSON7