From: chall@eco.twg.com (Charles Don Hall)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: The Wollongong Group (East Coast Operations)
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 19:06:08 GMT

In <C1JIsH.65y@ecf.toronto.edu> pelton@ecf.toronto.edu (PELTON MATTHEW ALAN) writes:

>  The pro-life groups, as bad as they are, at least have the advantage over the
>pro-choice groups of realizing what the true issue is.  Abortion isn't about
>individual liberties or women's rights.  It's about murder.  If you think 
>abortion is murder, of course you want to stop it.  And if you think it isn't,
>if course you'll permit it.  As simple as that.  So don't use arguments that
>don't address the issue.  Is it murder or not?

I think that you've become the victim of a cruel hoax. Pro-life groups
_claim_ that the debate is about "murder", but if you take a closer
look, you'll be surprised at what you find.

Suppose we take it as a given that the pro-lifers are objectively
right, and that killing a zygote is morally equivelent to killing
an adult. Doesn't that mean that the penalties for commiting these
crimes should be the same? Is there a difference between a woman who
kills her newborn child with cyanide, and a woman who kills her fetus
by taking RU-486?

According to most pro-lifers, the answer is "yes"! They have no
qualms about arresting the first woman and charging her with murder.
When confronted with the second woman, they'll just mouth platitudes 
about how she's a victim herself. Sure, they want to lock up the
woman's doctor and throw away the key, but they're a lot more 
charitable towards the woman herself. Most pro-lifers don't think
she should have to spend a single day in jail.

Another data point: Suppose a woman gets pregnant as the result of
rape. Most pro-lifers have no objection to allowing abortions in
this situation. But they get all hot and bothered when the woman
carries the pregnancy to term, and _then_ decides to kill the
child. Why do you suppose that is?

Now, there are a few people who pass the consistency test, and
sincerely believe that abortion is murder. My best guess is that
they make up about 5-10% of the population.

Consider the 90-95% of the population that does not really 
believe that abortion is murder. Many of these people belong
to bizarre religious cults which hold that abortion is
somehow "sinful". (I'm drawing a distinction between things
that are "harmful to citizens", like murder, theft, and rape,
and things that are merely "sinful", like gambling, dancing,
and premarital sex.) Anyway, these cults want to reduce the 
amount of "sin" in the world, so they try to pass laws restricting 
"sinful" behavior.

For historical reasons (which I won't go into here), it is 
very hard to pass laws of this nature in the US. As a result,
these cults have to make up imaginary rationales for their
proposed laws. "Abortion is murder" is simply one such rationale.
Pro-lifers _say_ they believe it, but they hardly ever _act_ _like_
they believe it.

LAB EXPERIMENT: Go back and read some articles by "Doug Holtsinger",
until you're satisfied that he claims to believe that performing 
an abortion is exactly the same as killing an adult human.  Then, 
ask him what legislation he supports regarding the murder of adults, 
and regarding the murder of 1st-trimester fetuses. You might need to 
ask several times. Record your results. Also, find a brick wall and 
ask it these same questions. Record your results. (The brick wall is 
your "control group")

BONUS QUESTION FOR EXTRA CREDIT: Does anyone remember what this
thread has to do with "Galen" or "Caves"?
-- 

===========================================================
Charles Don Hall, Licensed Philosopher  (chall@eco.twg.com)
===========================================================
Newsgroups: talk.abortion