HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mpv@ecl.psu.edu (Mike Rivkind)
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
Subject: Re: Any Humanities Grads out there?
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:41:25 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

> 
>    There is always a time and a place for specific wording, i.e. techno-jargon.
>    The "sick pride" I referred to was the irascible insistence on adherring
>    slavishly to hard-core terminology at all times to all people.  Those
>    unfamiliar with the buzzwords are deemed idiots, or at least completely
>    ignorant of their field.  The terminology becomes the standard fodder 
>    doled out to maintain job security and the ideal that there is some higher
>    level of intelligence associated with understanding the catch phrases.
>    I think people sometimes lose the concept that eventually one must explain
>    this great idea to someone who hasn't taken the time to memorize grandiose,
>    scientific terms.  I guess that's what think tanks are for....
> 

You seem to have made up your mind.  Maybe you should get out of nuclear
engineering.  It sounds as though you're not happy there.

How many percentage of the people you know in your field are actually guilty
of this "sick pride"?  I can only think of one person in my department.
Unfortunately he's a professor :-( .  The majority are more than happy to
explain their work to another person, even if they have to take the time out
to explain some basic concepts. 

I'm taking a wild guess that you are having trouble in a course because
of a poorly written book.  It happens all the time.  It is very hard to
write a good textbook.  When a good one does come out, it becomes very
popular.  For instance, a friend of mine who goes to Maryland commented
that he used the same books as I did in _more_ than half of his classes.
If there were alot of good textbooks out there then this wouldn't be true.


> --
>    Jerry W. Miller                   #   "Opinions?  Of course they
>    millerj@gn.ecn.purdue.edu         #    are mine, do YOU want them?"
>    Purdue University School of Nuclear Engineering
-- 

Mike Rivkind
mpv@ecl.psu.edu
Graduate Department of Aero Engg
Penn State University

"Quantum mechanics is stranger than science fiction." -- Gary Zukav
"I'm done with him" -- My Cousin Vinny
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
From: dwv@cs.brown.edu (David W. Vorbrich)
Subject: Re: Any Humanities Grads out there?
Organization: Brown Computer Science Dept.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:39:25 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.014012.27252@bnlux1.bnl.gov>, kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee) writes:
|> In article <1992Apr8.134425.11158@mercury.unt.edu> ac05@sol.acs.unt.edu (Bhattacharya Sumangala) writes:
|> >True, but I also know many humanities students and professors claim -- with
|> >a touch of pride -- that they know nothing about computers or other mechanical
|> >objects and that they were poor in mathematics as children (especially if they
|> >are women).  
|> >This is prejudice from the Humanities side.  What about prejudice from the
|> >science side?
|> 
|>   While a large segment of the scientific/technical population are
|> not as "liberally" educated as they should be, I don't think too
|> many techies would boast to being ignorant of lit or the arts.  So
|> it seems the prejudice from the humanities is not returned.

I agree.  In computers, we may joke about what geeks we may become (I speak of
the future in order to avoid the present), but I have never heard anyone happily
claim ignorance of humanities.  On the other hand, this does not mean there is no
prejudice from the science side toward humanities.  We often times talk about the
lack of realistic value studying humanities will lead to (in the form of income),
and also make fun of humanities students' lack of technical knowledge... the so-
called techno-dolts (Dave Barry I believe).  Obviously I am not trying to make
sweeping statements about humanities in pursuit of increasing my flame files, I
am simply pointing out that prejudice does certainly exist, just not in the form
of bragging about ignorance, but rather pointing out the ignorance of humanists.

It seems that the "touch of pride" that humanities students and professors claim
is exactly what we make fun of... just different perspectives.

-David V.
 dwv@cs.brown.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
From: callahan@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan)
Subject: Re: Any Humanities Grads out there?
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:00:35 GMT

clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:

>    Now there are reasons why engineers and the like find it hard to
>take humanities courses.  One of the main reasons is a lack of
>strong skills in writing.  The other is a lack of ability to organize.
>Finally, there could simply be a lack of interest, which I find
>too bad.   

My big reason is fear of not being graded appropriately.  I admit that there 
are plenty of objective standards for judging papers in the humanities, and
I'm willing to assume that most professors make an honest effort to reduce
their subjectivity as much as possible when grading.  However, when I  
turn in a paper in a liberal arts course, I lack the personal assurance that
it is the "right" answer.  

You may say what you will about the relative ease of Shakespeare and Fourier 
Analysis, but the fact remains that given a moderate question about the latter,
I am confident that I will be able to get the correct answer if I spend 
sufficient effort.  Moreover, I am certain that the professor will be
able to distinguish a correct answer from an incorrect one.  If asked to write
an essay about Shakespeare, on the other hand, I would lack both of these
assurances.

In this sense, I find engineering to be *easier* than liberal arts. (Yes,
easier).

--
Paul Callahan       | "... the 'spineless prickly pear' ... this long-neglected 
callahan@cs.jhu.edu | gift of nature, which now promises to be of as great or 
                    | even greater value to the human race than the discovery 
BIFF WHERE ARE YOU? | of steam."                      -- Luther Burbank, 1911
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
From: ac05@sol.acs.unt.edu (Bhattacharya Sumangala)
Subject: Re: Any Humanities Grads out there?
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:44:25 GMT

kychin@oread.cc.ukans.edu writes:

>In article <1992Mar15.030701.2091@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu>, rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert) writes:> 
>>    More communication between students of the humanities and sciences might
>> well be beneficial to both.  I at least would be glad to read what Classicists
>> take the effort to contribute.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> John Rickert			           "At least we're gainfully employed,
>> rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu	     even if not usefully employed."
>> 							-- Charles Megibben
>> 
>I consider myself half-science-half-humanities, and I am in THEATRE.
>Not only that I have a BS in physics, but also the nature of "Theatre Science"
>makes me feel so.   Technology helps a lot in developing modern theatre!
>I see these days more and more humanity students and professors involving
>around computers. 

True, but I also know many humanities students and professors claim -- with
a touch of pride -- that they know nothing about computers or other mechanical
objects and that they were poor in mathematics as children (especially if they
are women).  Thank goodness that this attitude is indeed changing, but I know
at least one professor (young, not of the old guard) who proclaimed the first
day of class that she had a hard time with mechanical objects like her toaster.

Please don't get me wrong -- I am myself a female graduate student of English
Literature.  I have my own share of troubles when I move from one system to 
another.  I have enough problems remembering how to edit docs on  the vi
editor and the VAX editor etc. etc.  But I feel that having an education means
being able to demonstrate the capacity to learn.  Although I have left math 
behind me when I received my A.B., I feel that anything that comes with a 
manual can be figured out.  Of course, time limitations make some things
well nigh impossible.

This is prejudice from the Humanities side.  What about prejudice from the
science side?

Sumangala Bhattacharya
AC05@UNTVAX.BITNET

I still haven't figured out how to do a sig.  but give me time (about two
years or so...)
From: finlay_j@spcvxb.spc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
Subject: Re: E-mail address: NYU CS
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:45:05 GMT
Organization: St. Peter's College, US

In article <92097.091002SNOSZB@vm.sas.com>, SNOSZB@vm.sas.com writes:
> I need an e-mail address for the Courant Institute at NYU, specifically, for
> Henry Massalin.  I'd appreciate it if someone could e-mail it to me.


If he's on the courant system, he should be massalin@cs.nyu.edu

The problem with NYU is that there's a whole bunch of different networks,
the most popular being acfcluster.nyu.edu

If you can't get him at the address suggested, try e-mailing vasquez@
acfcluster.nyu.edu

She may be able to help you--she coordinates the computing facility there.

Regards,

Jeff Finlay
From: rbutera@sawwhet.owlnet.rice.edu (Rob Butera)
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
Subject: Re: Do Fellowship organizations ...
Date: 5 Apr 1992 19:44:34 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Rice University

In article <1992Apr04.201208.1058@eng.umd.edu>, clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:
> 
> bureaucracy.   Now if we could convince the Americxan public that there
> is a real need for increased scientific research, then that may be the
> way to get more money toward NSF.  The reasoning is a little unusual.  If
> the common person believes in this research, then it is likely that the
> average politician might as well, hence...
> 

That's a really big idealistic IF, IMHO.  The following is my own
shortsighted narrowminded opinion that others have disagreed with.

1)	Scientific research is the amassing of scientific knowledge
	that may eventually be used for some kind of "breakthrough"
	(i.e. high public profile) discovery.  Some "useful" research
	is often done long before someone finds a use for it.

2)	The "average" citizen (say four years of college or less) seems
	to be rather shortsighted about the scientific process and how
	long research takes.  Some engineers fall into this mentality as well.
	Its not as simple as define the problem, work towards the solution,
	and solve it, like say designing the next computer or something.

3)	Combining (1) & (2) above, I think its VERY hard to sell the public on
	the merits of scientific research.  The average voter seems to be
	interested in how they will benefit from candidate X, in terms of
	jobs, the economy (which people judge by how they are doing
	financially), and what the candidate's stance on abortion is.

	Scientific research is VERY low on the political priority list, and
	the polticians need to please the voters if they are to get re-elected.

This probably belongs in talk.politics now, but Donald Kohl (sp?) recently
wrote an excellent editorial about how there is only one party, and its 
purpose is to relect its members.  I strongly encourage anyone to look it
up - it came out last week sometime (though I've since cast my paper into
the recycling bin).

-- 
Rob Butera - ECE grad student   Rice University, Houston, TX   rbutera@rice.edu
	"It was mentioned on CNN that the new prime number discovered
	 recently is four times bigger then the previous record."
				- rec.humor.funny, 4/1/92
From: dan@zond.mit.edu (dan rey)
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
Subject: Mech. Eng., McGill Univ. - McRCIM
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:39:47 GMT
Reply-To: dan@zond.mit.edu (dan rey)
Organization: M.I.T.

Hi !   I am presently arranging to pursue a PhD degree at the McGill
Research Center for Intelligent Machines (McRSIM) through the McGill
Mechanical Engineering Department.  I am looking for the email address 
of any graduate students there to ask specific questions such as:   	
   What is their impression of the work environment?
   What the Mech E. PhD qualifying exam is like?
etc...

Thanks,

Dan Rey

(darey@athena.mit.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
From: jeff@dspprd.sps.mot.com (Jeff Enderwick)
Subject: Re: Too many scientists and engineers in US!!!
Organization: /home/dsp/users/jeff/.organization
Distribution: usa
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:12:15

> Ph.D.'s earn $18,000 to $25,000

Pass that bong over here. From where I'm sitting PhDs make quite a bit more
than I. Go knock on doors in Palo Alto and count the number of PhDs!

On a more friendly note, you're probably right about social science PhDs,
but a PhD is CS with a thesis thats non-drivel is worth something.

	jeff@dsp.sps.mot.com
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
From: gjohn@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (George H. John)
Subject: Too many scientists and engineers in US!!!
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 19:14:02 GMT


Folks on this newsgroup have already discovered this phenomenon,
but the rest of the world found out today in a story in the 
Washington Post that was carried in several other major 
newspapers.  

US CALLED FLUSH WITH SCIENTISTS:
Late 80's warning was false, experts say

Washington Post

	WASHINGTON -- The familiar claim that the United States faces
a major shortage of scientists and engineers -- often cited by
National Science Foundation officials when seeking budget increases --
is false and was based on a seriously flawed foundation study, seven
scientists, engineers, and governmnet officials told a congressional
panel Wednesday.

The warning was so widely repeated during the late 1980s -- especially
by Erich Bloch, who then headed the agency -- that it became part of
the conventional wisdom.  Educators bemoaned the decline in the number of
young Americans entering science.  Scientific societies launched programs
to attract more students.  And almost everyone blamed the presumed 
shortage for declining U.S. competitiveness in the world economy.

Ph.D.'s earn $18,000 to $25,000

In fact, witnesses told the hearing, the shortage that was to have
begun a few years ago -- and which was to have left the United States
with a "shortfall" of 675,000 scientists and engineers by 2010 --
never materialized.  They said there is now such a surplus of
scientists and engineers that unemployment rates in some disciplines
far exceed those for the country as a whole and typical salaries for
beginning Ph.D.'s in many fields are $18,000 to $25,000.

The National Science Foundation official who did the study, Peter
House, defended it by telling the panel that he sought to depict a
hypothetical situation.  He said the study was never intended as a
forecast of what might happen in the real world.

The NSF, with a budget of $2.4 billion, funds most of this country's
non-medical, non-military basic research.

'Shortage' study

House, of the foundation's Policy and Research Analysis Division, did
the "shortage" study by calculating the average number of bachelor's
degrees in science and engineering granted annually from 1984 through
1986, which came to about 211,000 a year.  House told the subcommittee
he assumed that 211,000 was the number of scientists and engineers
that U.S. society would demand each year thereafter.

House then calculated that the supply would decline significantly
thereafter because of the post-baby-boom bust, in which the number of
college students across the board would decline -- which has happened.
The years 1985 and 1986 were the latest peak of a curve that has risen
and fallen many times.  In 1990, the number of science and engineering
degrees had fallen to about 176,000, a "shortfall," in House's
calculations, of 35,000 for that year alone.
From: minzhi@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Min-Zhi Shao)
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
Subject: Re: Any Humanities Grads out there?
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:00:16 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Apr14.015327.8923@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> zika@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Zika) writes:
]
] [some stuff deleted]
]
]My personal feeling is that, in principle, all are equal in difficulty.

I agree.

]However, different approaches and thought patterns are required for
]each discipline, e.g. an english literature major and a nuclear
]engineer.

So, that's where "=" comes from. :^) :^)


Min-Zhi Shao

Xref: sparky soc.college.grad:926 sci.engr.civil:112 soc.college:1835 soc.college.gradinfo:648
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thursday, 9 Apr 1992 00:12:13 CDT
From: Sergiu <U54888@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad,sci.engr.civil,soc.college,soc.college.gradinfo
Subject: Addresses of colleges in Cleveland/Akron area.

    I'm looking for the names and mailing addresses of all colleges in the
Cleveland and Akron (both in Ohio) area.
    Thank you very much.

P.S. send addresses to U54888@UICVM.UIC.EDU . Thanx again.
From: elm@cs.berkeley.edu (ethan miller)
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
Subject: Re: Support Our Fellow Grad Students
Date: 7 Apr 92 20:55:08 GMT
	<ELM.92Mar30134622@terrorism.berkeley.edu>
	<1992Mar30.225804.7693@eng.umd.edu>
Reply-To: elm@cs.berkeley.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: utter chaos
NNTP-Posting-Host: terrorism.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: clin@eng.umd.edu's message of 30 Mar 92 22:58:04 GMT

In article <1992Mar30.225804.7693@eng.umd.edu> clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Chien-Hong Lin) writes:
=>>The difference between Berkeley and Maryland appears to be funding.
=>>When there is lots of research money, TAs become scarce.
=>
=>   The difference may also be in the number of grad students as well.
=>Maryland claims to have 1200 students in EE.  In grad school.  I find
=>this number difficult to believe.  However, there are courses where
=>the students number around 40 or so, and this is in grad courses.
=>So I assume that it is not too unusual to have 100 students who
=>enter the Master's program each year.

Berkeley only gets around 30-40 students each year, and graduates
about 20 PhDs per year.  The rest of the entering students either only
get masters or drop out before finishing the PhD.

=>    I suspect, even with large amounts of funding, if a prof. is
=>picky, then some grad students wouldn't get funded.  The difference
=>is probably also that profs. at Berkeley assume that no matter who
=>asks, an RA can be offered, since, with reasonable confidence, they
=>can get someone who will do the job.  For some reasons, profs. are
=>more reluctant to hand out RAs here even if they have the money to
=>do so.  But you're right, some profs. have a hard time paying the
=>grad students they currently have.

That's not quite true.  Some profs are pickier than others.  However,
there are always RA openings around, except in certain areas.  Right
now, those areas are theory and AI.  It's harder to get funding in
theory, so theory students often rely on fellowships or TAing to
support themselves.  The same is somewhat true for AI.

ethan
--
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
ethan miller--cs grad student   | "Anybody not wearing 2000000 sunblock's
elm@cs.berkeley.edu             |  gonna have a REALLY bad day.  GET IT?"
#include <std/disclaimer.h>     |  -- Sarah Connor, _Terminator 2_
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
From: jamesm@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (James Mihaychuk)
Subject: This is not s.c.gradinfo
Summary: Post info requests to s.c.gradinfo 
Keywords: info seekers get lost! 
Organization: University of Toronto Physics/Astronomy/CITA
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 18:06:16 GMT

Sorry to come across in an authoritarian manner, but I just read
this group for the first time in a while, after a hiatus which was
provoked by a deluge of "who go notification from Foo U.?" posts.

Am I completely missing the point?  Isn't soc.college.grad a group a
place to discuss matters of general interest to grad students, while
soc.college.gradinfo is for requests for addresses, housing info, etc.?

Unless you cannot access soc.college.gradinfo, please post information
requests there.
 
James Mihaychuk, grad student     |    Take my advice,
Dept. of Physics, U. of Toronto   |    Don't listen to me...
jamesm@physics.utoronto.ca        |    --Neil Young, "Hippie Dream"
From: minzhi@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Min-Zhi Shao)
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
Subject: Re: Any Humanities Grads out there?
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:27:19 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Apr15.213623.28242@eng.umd.edu> clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:
>
>In article <1992Apr15.144945.1909@mercury.unt.edu>, ac05@sol.acs.unt.edu (Bhattacharya Sumangala) writes:
>>clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) -- among others -- writes:
>>
>>Since many of the posts agree that more and more humanities specialists are
>>using technology in their fields, I must ask again why scientists & engineers
>>feel that they must downplay the importance of humanities?

I once read someone in this newsgroup saying that many social scientists are
using computer more and more often nowadays.  I guess they must have discovered
that computer science is easier, or even damn stupid sometimes, if not always.

By the way, one of my friend just told me two Berkeley grad students did
something significant recently in theory computer science.  Anyone got any
details?


Min-Zhi
From: mpv@ecl.psu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad
Subject: Stop the madness!! (was Re: Any humanities grads out there?)
Date: 17 Apr 92 04:39:24 EDT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

In article <1992Apr17.001617.6250@colorado.edu>, ejh@khonshu.colorado.edu (Edward J. Hartnett) writes:
> In article <1992Apr16.200656.28597@ra.msstate.edu> wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator) writes:
>>
>>	I think it would be better if we started talking about why
>>many people say engineers are in it for the money instead of
>>trying to refute the charge, because I really don't think many
>>engineers or humanities are in their profession because they
>>have this great, big idea that they're contributing to society
>>in a very meaningful way that'd lead to thousand of lives saved
>>from illiteracy or even hunger.  The factory workers who assemble
>>the tractors that help harvest grain fields which help quell
>>hunger isn't necessarily hung up about how their daily efforts
>>are helping to feed people.  I think it'd be unrealistic.

[much deleted]

> 
> One more note on this topic. In my freshman year I
> knew plenty of people who wanted an engineering degree
> just for the money, but most of them failed out. As
> a senior said to me my first week: "You've got to
> really love it, to put up with all the work."
> 

I second that notion.  But I know some engineers who were in it for the money
that WERE able to make it.  They all seem to want to go to law school now. :-(

Oh no!!!  Now the law students are going to get involved in this thread and it
will NEVER end. ;-)


CFD:
  soc.college.grad.humanities.are.more.important.to.society
  soc.college.grad.engineers.are.more.important.to.society


- Mike "I can see the attraction to both engineering AND humanities" Rivkind
Newsgroups: soc.college.grad