HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shiv@tsp.med.umn.edu (Shiv Prasad)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: East Indian vs. Asian Indian
Date: 6 Jan 93 04:18:11 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota

In article <1idc72INNe3c@agate.berkeley.edu> mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.230028.2331@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> swami1@troy.cc.bellcore.com (swaminathan,kashi r) writes:
>>
>>East Indian has been the term used well before the term Asian Indian
>>was invented. When I came to Berkeley eons ago as a student (well it
>
>Yet long familiarity with a term does not necessarily make it right.

In this case familiarity does not make it wrong either.  I grew up thinking
on myself as being of East Indian origin and I don't resent the term, neither
does anyone in my immediate family.  As I wrote in a previous post, whether
you prefer East Indian or Asian Indian you still need an adjective to
discriminate us from American Indians even if that group eschews the use of
the term "Indian."  Now were stuck arguing over which justification is better.
 
>American Indians are now frequently called Native Americans, and I believe
>many of them support the latter label.

Many of them now decry the term Native American because it gives a them a 
foreign name (America).  Some now  prefer the tribal name (Lakoda, Ojibwe, etc)
Is there a way to describe all the aboriginal peoples of this continent
without offending some?  Probably not.
At any rate, I think this whole discussion is a very '90's attempt to
manufacture some "politically correct" euphemism to describe us all.
We went through this when ACUAI was launched, Pakistanis/Bangladeshis/Sri
Lankans might object to "Indian," others for certain reasons might object to
"sub-continent," many would object to alt.culture.abcd.  Finally (it seemed)
we settled on desi which is also confusing because, in a sense, germans are
desis to each other.

Although i would prefer simply "Indian," that won't be lucid to most.
I think we should accept that there is no one label agreeable to all and maybe
we'll have to accept the one that is the least confusing.  My vote for that
term would be East Indian as it is the one to which most people are
accustomed and it does not contain an affront (why should we be offended if
Columbus didn't know where he was).

Shiv Prasad

>
>Manish
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: Indian software in the spotlight (Was Re: Pressure)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:08:51 GMT

In article <1iu9l3$5t0@agate.berkeley.edu>, mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij) writes:
> In article <1993Jan11.231638.26436@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
> >One reason for this is that "need of achievement" is reduced for the 
> >individuals who graduated from ivy league colleges. They have already
> [...]
> >Subsequently they do not do as well as somebody from a remote unheard college
> >still trying to prove his/her technical competence.
> 
> I have also heard this comment, that Berkeley/MIT/Stanford et al. grads
> are too arrogant to work hard in the workplace, so some managers prefer hiring
> from Cal Poly.  I certainly hope this isn't too large a trend :-).
> 

The trend is still not too large :-)
Graduating from Ivy League colleges would still get you several offers
at the time of graduation with little effort. Getting a job is easier
with Ivy League degrees, however rising up the ladder in the corporate
world isn't guranteed just because someone graduated from Ivy League.
In the corporate world, it is your interpersonal and communication
skills, your willingness to work in a team, your willingness to work
hard and smart that matters as far as promotions etc are concerned.
Technical abilities are only a secondary consideration. (sigh :-)

Alok
From: mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: East Indian vs. Asian Indian
Date: 6 Jan 1993 01:21:38 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan4.230028.2331@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> swami1@troy.cc.bellcore.com (swaminathan,kashi r) writes:
>In article <1ht08rINNms1@agate.berkeley.edu> mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij) writes:
>
>East Indian has been the term used well before the term Asian Indian
>was invented. When I came to Berkeley eons ago as a student (well it

Yet long familiarity with a term does not necessarily make it right.
Before East Indian, Hindoo was used to refer to the largely Sikh population
in Central California, as in "The Hindoo Peril" in the 1930s.

>was really in 1958 only), there was no such term as Asian Indian.
>They called us east Indian to distinguish us from American 
>Indians whom they called just Indians.

American Indians are now frequently called Native Americans, and I believe
many of them support the latter label.

>I remember a debate with Mr. Blaisdell who was the director 
>of the International House on just this point.

It's interesting to see how even the Westerners (another misnomer) who are
relatively knowledgeable about India are still mired in their cultural
prejudices.  The South Asian Studies department at Berkeley is frequently
criticized by its students of South Asian origin (over half the enrollment)
of being very ethnocentric and inaccurate in its viewpoints.  It has come
under heavy fire for consistently hiring white profs over Indians, and
for applying a Western paradigm (Freudian sexual analysis) to myths
and legends.

Much of the funding for foreign studies departments across the
U.S. arose during the Cold War out of a desire to "understand the enemy"
rather than to study a culture for its own sake.  During the funding
of an Indian Studies endowment last year, there was a big uproar in the
community, led by Cal students, over the biases in the SAS dep't.

Manish
-- 
"You cannot be president of the U.S. if you don't have faith.  Remember
Lincoln, going to his knees in times of trial and the Civil War and all
that stuff.  You can't be.  And we are blessed.  So don't feel sorry for --
don't cry for me, Argentina."   -- President Bush and his keen analytical mind
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: susanc@rice.edu (susan chacko)
Subject: Re: Queries on Career Choices
Organization: Rice University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:59:27 GMT

baindur@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Satyen G Baindur) writes:

>  Once you accept that it is possible - or even probable - that one may 
>suffer discrimination on account of what one looks like, then it is by 
>no means clear that a 'professional' career is necessarily better than 
>a 'non-professional' one. After all, would you rather he get a Harvard 
>PhD to find that the only job anyone has for him is in high-school 
>teaching ? Or to get a Caltech PhD and be employed as a programmer - 
>or even be unemployed ? Or would you rather he finish high school and 
>took his knocks, let us say, in theatre, if that interested him ? 

The theatre/film world is not easy for minorities to break into. When
The Last Emperor came out, a few years ago, there were a number of
articles in magazines and papers about how difficult it had been
for Chinese-Americans to get roles in theater and film, because
the directors only cast them in roles that were specifically Chinese.
These roles were few and far between. I imagine that things have
not changed much, and that most directors, when reading a script,
still would not think of a Chinese- or Indian- or Japanese-American
in the role unless it was in China/India/Japan or specifically
called for a visible minority. The actors who were interviewed
also complained that when they did get roles, they were invariably
expected to act and talk Chinese. It seems almost redundant to
call this type-casting ;-).

The professional world is a little more open to Indians and
Indian-Americans, if only because there are so many already 
there. Sure, there's discrimination there too, but it can't
be as obvious as 'Sorry, you look Indian, we can't use you.'
So, certainly a kid who's heart is in theatre should go there,
but I wouldn't blame the kids who decided to be practical about 
jobs either. The probability of a programmer being unemployed 
is a helluva lot lower than that of an Indian actor. Perhaps
the best thing one could do for one's kids, (assuming they listen
to you at all, that is) is to encourage them to find some happy
mean between the starving artist and the unhappy engineer/doctor;
careers like film lighting/sound, journalism, park rangers....

Susan.



--
Mail is forwarded to susanc@helix.nih.gov
Bldg 2, Rm 316, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Md.

Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.czecho-slovak,soc.culture.tamil,alt.culture.kerala,alt.culture.karnataka,soc.culture.indian.telugu,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan
From: prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: FREE STOCKS NEWSLETTER!
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 12:32:15 GMT

(Kanth Miriyala) writes:
>
>We apologize for cross posting this. As we want to attract people
>to investing in stocks we are  trying to post this in places 
>wherer we can reach  non-investors. We sincerely hope that this 
>will prove profitable to you in the long run. 

IT WON'T and you know it!

There is convincing body of evidence to suggest that investing
in individual stocks (particularly OTC ones traded on NASDAQ) and
attempting to ride short-term price swings is a VERY VERY RISKY
proposition.

In my not-so-humble opinion, it is a STUPID IDEA for anybody, leave
alone students (who abound these nets) with very little cash 
cushions.

DON'T DO IT! You cannot win this game. I wish Mr. Miriyala would
cease and desist from posting this IRRESPONSIBLE stuff on the net,
in an attempt to ensnare naive investors. I get so mad when I
see his sugary postings.

There are easier, less risky and undoubtedly more profitable options
such as investing in a low-cost INDEX FUND with monthly investments.
It has been SHOWN that this is the best option for investors like
us, unless you are a Bill Gates or a Rockefeller.

Please email me if you want more details about this option and
if there is sufficient interest I will prepare an investment guide
for grad students and fresh employees.

Satya Prabhakar

[My opinions are based on almost a decade-long romance with stocks
and other investments and not-insignificant amount of finger-
burning flirting with stocks such as Mr. Miriyala peddles, in
addition to wide literature survey, and an MBA in Finance.] 
--
___________________________________________
Happiness, dear Phaedrus, is a passed pawn!
From: mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Queries on Career Choices
Date: 6 Jan 1993 01:49:35 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

In article <1id3o0INN33v@menudo.uh.edu> mba2@Jane.UH.EDU writes:
> [talk of Democrats socializing medicine deleted]

My aunt and uncle are both doctors and talk worriedly about Clinton's
plans for controlling health costs.  Probably voted for Bush on that basis
alone.  My hometown is an affluent 'burb: voted overwhelmingly Republican
while the rest of the country went Democrat.  I think it's incredibly
selfish to pad your own nest while the rest of the country goes down the
drain -- and that, to me, is the essence of the Republicans' appeal to
the many IA doctors I know.  Many of these people are socially liberal but
fiscally conservative, not in the sense of truly believing in supply-side
economics, but in the sense of truly believing in tax loopholes and a
capital gains tax cut.

>>3. What are the ramifications, if any, of the high expectations of 
>>parents and society on IAs? Society expects AA kids in general to 
>>be "smarter" than WAs, particularly in math & society.
>>
>Early Burn-Out in college or total rebellion.  I'm not saying every
>one is like this, but I think the percentage is higher for AA.

Or... most IA's I see at Cal walk a tightrope.  They burn out a little but
keep at it; they rebel a little but keep it quiet.  The bulk of the IA's
I know here are SURPRISINGLY good kids, for a second generation culture.
The rest probably don't go to Berkeley and hang with the Indian crowd.

>>4. What draws so many IAs to "practical" professions in general?
>>(By practical I mean Eng/Comp.Sci, Law, Medicine, Accounting, etc.)
>>
>Upbringing.  They realize that there is more stability in a "Professional"
>occupation then in a "Non-Professional" one.  Also MONEY.  English majors/
>Sociology majors /etc don't make as much unless they get M.S. or PhD's.

I'm sure Shakespeare's parents told him the same thing :-).  He just got
some lucky breaks.

You'll find the emphasis on lucrative professions common to most immigrant
cultures if the first generation immigrated primarily to better their
economic situation.

Manish
-- 
"You cannot be president of the U.S. if you don't have faith.  Remember
Lincoln, going to his knees in times of trial and the Civil War and all
that stuff.  You can't be.  And we are blessed.  So don't feel sorry for --
don't cry for me, Argentina."   -- President Bush and his keen analytical mind
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: shashi@aix3090b.uky.edu (Shashi Sathaye)
Subject: Re: Pressure
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Path: shashi
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:23:18 GMT

mba2@Jane.UH.EDU (Puneet_S) writes:

>>>Subject:	Societal /Parental Pressure placed on young children
>>>		in our culture to attain "greatness"
>>>
>>>Question:	Is our culture /parental pressure too demanding of
>>>		our children to succeed? 
>>
>> With all this discussion of being american / being indian / being global
>> and being just yourself (tm).... it would help if the "our" in "our
>> culture" was bit more specific. :)
>>
>> Contextually, it seems you are talking about indian culture...?

>P.	I was referring to my Uncles and Auntis who are pressuring their
>	sons and daughters to get out of high school early, go to medical
>	school and get married.  I refer to II or IA.  I think here there
>	is no line between IA and II parents.
>	
>_______________________________________________________________________________
>TOYS
>Puneet

>                                                        MBA2@JETSON.UH.EDU   or
>                                                        BBRC215@BAL0053.B-R.COM
I find this reference to 'Uncles and Auntis' rather offending. 
We  should be concerned over 'american employees' being rather
uneducated, underskilled and threatened by other countries providing
better trained cheaper labor. Most of the friends I have are  
(irrespective of their skin color) 'pressuring' their sons and daughters into
'finishing high school and going into some "professional" career.' It is
not always medicine and/or engineering or computer science.  
It seems to me that parents who take interest in their children's education
are being accused of 'pressuring' them. The young people who 'complain' of
being pressured, are most of the time not very sure of the alternatives
either.
The way the school system is herein USA, one can finish high school by taking 
very low level 'math and science' courses, and equally mediocre language 
and arts classes. If left upto the children, 
they would prefer 'bunny' classes that
get them thru the high school easy and they will also talk their friends into 
it. Then consider a kid whose father is a professor and mother is a school
teacher,one of them looks at the choices and says 
"if you do your best, you can take most of these classes at AP level", 
whoa that is pressuring dear uncle and aunty..

--
--With best regards from Shashi
Login name: shashi | System Programmer By Profession | In real life:
                   | but heart(&SWEET-HEART) in Math.| Shashi Sathaye
shashi@ms.uky.edu	sysshash@ukcc.uky.edu  shashi@aix3090.uky.edu
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Queries on Career Choices
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:18:19 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

I went to a Sindhi "Youth" Party last week and had some interesting
conversations. The most interesting thing that I gathered was the
abundance of people studying Pre-Med. I knew that a lot of 1st 
generation people are motivated to go into medicine, but frankly I
was a bit surprised at the number. 

This brings up a couple of questions, and possible answers. 

1. Why do so many young desis desire to be doctors?

a. Because they are concerned about people and desire to help them.

b. They are following in the footsteps of their folks.

c. They are encouraged/coerced into it by their folks.
(BTW, my mother is a physician and discouraged me from studying
medicine)

d. They are materialistic, and realize that medicine is both lucrative
and stable employment.

e. They feel that becoming a doctor is their way of distinguishing 
themselves in White American society.

f. They want to do better than their parents have.

Answer c is one that describes an old roommate, and I get the 
impression that it is all too often a primary reason for many 
IA kids. 

2. In general, how does the extremely (IMO) competitive nature 
of Indian society in America affect 1st generation kids?

3. What are the ramifications, if any, of the high expectations of 
parents and society on IAs? Society expects AA kids in general to 
be "smarter" than WAs, particularly in math & society.

4. What draws so many IAs to "practical" professions in general?
(By practical I mean Eng/Comp.Sci, Law, Medicine, Accounting, etc.)

Although I'm an engineer, I didn't feel pressure to study engrng, 
considering that one of my older bros is a Poly Sci guy.

Just pondering,
Ron
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,alt.individualism
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)
Subject: Re: being asian-indian/american
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:26:34 GMT

=====================================
 vagarwal@tardis.shearson.com writes:
>
>Why do you see European as ONE SINGLE RACE not as
>German,French,British,Irish,Italian,Swedish.....
>when you SEE NON-Europeans as Japanese,Chinese,Indian,Pakistani .... ?

 I don't "see" all this. I do find it convenient to write my thoughts with
 concepts........... That is the distinction is all contextual to our
 discussion and done for our discussion's convenience.

 It will be tough, wouldn't you agree, if everytime I have to write
 about Indians - I have to count all the diverse groups and tribes that
 live in that part of the earth: Kannada, Tamil, Telugu, Assamese,
 Bengali, Oriya, Gujrati, Marathi, Punjabi, Garwahli....gee, the content
 will soon get lost, isn't it? And then, we should add if it is 
 asian indian (or to keep PREETI happy - south asian :) ), or is it
 east/west indian, or is it............hmmmmmmm.........

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
From: mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Queries on Career Choices
Date: 7 Jan 1993 09:20:50 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

In article <1ig9h3INNm0d@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> baindur@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Satyen G Baindur) writes:
>
>  Once you accept that it is possible - or even probable - that one may 
>suffer discrimination on account of what one looks like, then it is by 
>no means clear that a 'professional' career is necessarily better than 
>a 'non-professional' one. After all, would you rather he get a Harvard 
>PhD to find that the only job anyone has for him is in high-school 
>teaching ? Or to get a Caltech PhD and be employed as a programmer - 
>or even be unemployed ? Or would you rather he finish high school and 
>took his knocks, let us say, in theatre, if that interested him ? 

Although I subscribe to 'carpe diem' as much as the next quasi-English major,
there is enough unfilled demand for many 'professionals' that looking different
will be overlooked.  In fact, you could argue that being Asian is a great
advantage in being hired to work in a technical field, both because the
faces of those on the vanguard are so heavily Asian, and because of the
large numbers of companies started by Asians in technical fields, many of
which prefer hiring those of the same ethnicity.

>I believe that in the future, second and third generation IAs will turn
>increasingly to independent business, and the occupational distribution 
>will more closely mirror that of American society as a whole. The high 

Entrepreneurship is already thriving, both because of immigrant aspirations
and glass ceilings.  If you pick up a copy of India-West, you'll see an
explosion in the number of business started by Indians.

BTW, I've noticed, since about 1991, a larger and better defined Indian-
American community as measured by conventions as well as discussions of
intercultural issues.  I guess this group is proof.  It's really
exciting to see it grow.

Manish
-- 
She paints herself that bird, a thrush
with crimson stain across her mouth
No raspberry, a hot-sweet flush
denies the fever frocking south.         - S.K.S.
Xref: sparky alt.culture.us.asian-indian:1727 alt.individualism:6206
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: = Opportunity etc.
Date: 9 Jan 93 01:27:05 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <ARCHER.627.726336611@utkvm1.utk.edu> ARCHER@utkvm1.utk.edu
(T. Archer) writes:
>>We can strike a balance between suffocating overregulation and the cruelty of
>>the free market.
>
>Not really.

It seems to me that we have to.  The Libertarian platform points towards a
direction that we should be taking, IMO:  increased responsibility for our
own lives, a government whose power to enact legislation impacting our
life is sharply curtailed.

On the other hand, I don't believe that Libertarianism in its pure form
will ever pull a majority of the votes.  Hell, I voted Libertarian in
California's Senate races but I seriously doubt I'd vote for a Lib president.

We are currently a very fragmented culture; personally, I would like to see
us move in one common direction (not every individual but overall), a
direction where personal freedom is maximized and you succeed in life
based on your abilities, without being held back because you're chinese/
black/female/gay.

At present, all we have is a group of societal subsets, with various groups
trying to sharply limit the freedoms of others to control their own
reproduction / possess the means of self defense / use the recreational
drugs of their choice / whatever.

I don't think that taxes will ever be completely eliminated.  I can, however,
see them being reduced to a far lower level than they occupy now and people
given control over the manner in which their money is spent.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head...

    don
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian