HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Date: Wednesday, 4 November 1992 21:15:58 MST
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.13
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
Subject: Re: Prerequisite to negociations II
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Distribution: world

[Well-thought-out article deleted -- dcs]

Soundly reasoned.  I think that you are perhaps excessively
pessimistic, though, in one particular.  Despite appearances
from the other side, Israel wants to be the good guy.  Once
the sense of threat is removed (note that I said SENSE --
that will take longer than removing the threat), they will
move to become the economic and social benefactors of the
region.  That includes the Palestinians.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Question in Arabic (was: Re: EGYPT: LET MY....)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 16:44:34 +0100
Organization: "The Private site of Manfredo Tichauer"

jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:

> 
> :D :D :D :D :)  I could not stop laughing.  Underwear?!:)?@#$^&*(^#&*@^.
> That's Kalsoun. In arabic we use that Spanish name Kalsoun for underwear.
> In Spanish it is Kalsouna.  People tended to make fun of the late singer
> and call her Om Kalsoun.  
> 
  In Spanish CALZON (originary from Arabic!) means breeches, shorts
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Another Missed Opportunity
Date: 8 Nov 92 08:40:37 GMT
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 18003@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

> Your smear of the widely aclamed and accepted Myths and Facts 

A turd by any other name...

>(oh please repeat that ridiculous
>line that they did not know where Deir Yassin was in relation to
>events, almost anyone who has been on a program in Israel will just
>laugh at you) 

M&F says that Deir Yassin was on the road to Jerusalem.  It wasn't.
Laugh as much as you want, but Deir Yassin won't move because it
doesn't exist thanks to you-know-who.

>               is proof of that (I should note, before your worthless
>attempt to jump on me, that this is not the case with From Time
>Immemorial).

Haha, I guess you didn't line the line "Jewish terrorists copied Arab
terrorists", eh?  Btw, FTI says Deir Yassin was on the highway too.

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad Ebrahimi)
Subject: Re: Celebration in the Streets
Organization: Elect & Comp Engineering, U of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba,Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:49:13 GMT


In article : <1992Nov5.192835.17020@rock.concert.net> bing@jazz.concert.net 
(Carter E. Bing) writes:
.In article <1992Nov5.151831.25497@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) .writes:
.>
.>After Clinton was elected, there were celebrations in the streets in two
.>cities:
.>		Little Rock, Arkansas
.>		Bagdad, Iraq
.>
.>Think about it.
.>
.>
.--

.	And when Reagan won they danced in the streets in
.Iran. So what`s the point?

.		Carter

          Do you, by any chance, have any relation to President Carter( the
          looser against Reagan) ? :-)

--
."Why, have you never noticed that opinion without knowledge is
.always a shabby sort of thing? At the best is blind. One who
.holds true a belief without intelligence is just like a blind
.man who happens to take the right road, isn`t he?"  Socrates

Mohammad
From: marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:07:57 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>This thread is like the energizer bunny...

>You are the one without the grasp of enough basic economic principles
>(or historical precendent!) to understand the trade-offs between your
>short-sighted ideas about pricing and taking a longer term view. 

I guess that you are as intelligent as your Sheik el-Sabbah "hafithaho
allah" ... Sheik elsabbah and his bretheren in the gulf tried very
hard to lower the price of oil since the early eighties when oil plunged
down to about $8, then they told us this rediculous story about
this stupid "short-sighted AND long term view" ... Well tell the stupid
Sabbah that if the west was able to produce a RELIABLE solar car or
nuclear airoplane then would have done so long before ... As you know
they would love to see you swallowing you oil "shardinee". Obviously they
couldn't (and they will not) ... that is why they have put those puppets
in the gulf to sell them oil at a low price while THEY ARE HIDING THEIR
OWN OIL IN THE GROUND.

This brings us to the question of "what is the real price of oil". The
gulf monarques tried to tell us that it was $8.0 then they told us it
is $15 and now $20 ... In my opinion it should be no less that $50 ...
which is what the oil prices jumped to at the beginning of the gulf
war.

Saddam brought about many inconsistencies and mistakes but he made one
thing right. He revieled the treatury of those fat bellied donkies in 
the gulf that had the gutts to even talk about things like economy
(though I know who tought them).
From: v053qhyx@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Jeremy A Berger)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Date: 13 Nov 92 05:44:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <Nov.12.14.52.02.1992.13956@caip.rutgers.edu>, marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes...
>astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
> 
>>eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri) writes:
> 
> 
>>>Danny, the issue here is that those Arabs of Israel (Palestinians) have been
>>>living in Ramya for generations.
> 
>>I just asked an Israeli Arab about that, and he pointed out that,
>>although he wasn't sure exactly how long those Arabs had been living
>>in Ramya, they were Bedouins and therefore could not have been living
>>there all that long.  His best estimate was maybe 30-40 years.  So
>>much for "living in Ramya for generations."
> 
>Let me correct both of you ... Bedwins usually live in the deserts, 
>and usually they do not have farming as their main buissiness. You
>would rarely find bedwins in the fertile lands of north galleli, 
>though you might probably find them in southern palestine like the
>Negev desert (before the nuclear boms were installed there).
>I think that there is some misunderstanding/forgering on either your
>part or the one whom you told this story on behalf ... Please clarify.
> 
>DO NOT TRY TO TELL US THAT THE ARABS DID NOT LIVE THEIR FOR GENERATIONS.
>THEY WERE THERE BEFORE THE EUROPEAN ZIONISTS CAME AND THAT IS A FACT.
>STOP FALSIFYING VERY WELL KNOWN FACTS.
> 
>______________________________________________________________________________
^^^^^^^^

Actually...the Zionists/Jews lived there way before the ARABS.. the European 
Jews would not have been European jews had they been left alone in biblical
times in their "Palestine"... The Jews were expelled from THEIR land.. only
to be forced to migrate to Europe..
            Jeremy
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hezbollah
Date: 7 Nov 1992 16:15:17 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   Since John Elghani has evoked the massacres that took place in
the Sabra and Chatela camps, and since Mr. Elghani is such a liar
regarding subjects such as these, it is once again important that
someone dispel his bullshit with some fact.
   The best way to shed some light on this terrible tragedy is to
examine who knew what about this incident.
   While I would agree that Ariel Sharon is a nasty man, I do not
think that it is wise to make up stories to make him appear worse
than he really is.
   Did Sharon order this massacre to take place?  Did Sharon know
that it was going to take place?  Could Sharon have anticipated a
vicious attack such as this would happen?  Did the attack involve
even one single Israeli?  Since there were no Israelis in the two
camps, did Sharon know what was actually occuring in the camps at
the time the attacks were happening?  The answer to each of these
questions is no.  This is not speculation.  It is fact.  He never
would have knowingly allowed such a thing to take place.  While I
am no fan of Sharon, I do not make up lies about those I oppose.
   John Elghani has called Sharon the mastermind of this tragedy.
John Elghani is a liar.  He has repeatedly demonstrated a massive
lack of regard for truth.
   I have a word of advice for you, Mr. Elghani.  Every time your
urge to post lies starts to get the better of you, remember folks
who know the truth will set the record straight.  Every time some
of your lies are refuted, you lose a little more credibility.  It
is possible that you have some credibility remaining, but I doubt
it.  It is never too late to stop lying.  Try the truth.  I swear
to you that it is not that hard.
   By the way,  you seem to have forgotten that Time magazine was
sued by Sharon for telling the same lies that you did.  Would you
care to guess what the outcome of that case was?
-- 
   "One can be a racist.  Or one can be a human being.  But one
may not be both."
                                 - Rabbi Abraham Joshua heschel

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: Hezbollah
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:41:43 GMT


In article <4321@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Ohm Jihad) writes:
>>My God, how worse can a person be who had knowledge of (and in any
>>democratic society, this is considered to be an accessory to the
>>fact/crime, and punishable therein) the bloody massacre of human
>>beings?

Try Arafat.

----
Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  Electronics Division    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            5101 Spine Road
Please excuse my English			    Boulder, CO 80301
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Ohm Jihad)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hezbollah
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:01:01 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

>My God, how worse can a person be who had knowledge of (and in any
>democratic society, this is considered to be an accessory to the
>fact/crime, and punishable therein) the bloody massacre of human
>beings?

And I forgot to add:  and allowed it to happen.

I'm really surprised at you, Brendan.

Anisa
	"The best kind - angry, rebellious, critical - a renegade ..."

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: 1967 war again (was: Re: Rebel attack....)
Date: 8 Nov 1992 07:25:53 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 12026@cs.brown.edu, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>In article <1di8ahINNdgj@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>#(c) A report of the broadcast in a contemporary newspaper, preferably
>#not one in an "enemy" country.

>I have posted such quotes from the TIME and from Churchill and
>Churchill's book. I am quite certain recordings of the original
>broadcasts exist, but frankly I am not in a position now to
>look for them. As for ear-witnesses, same goes.

>#(e) An account from a historian of accepted high reputation.

>Name some and I can try ask them.

>#This is especially true because both are presented as unconditional
>#Egyptian proclamations of war at a time when Egyptian official 
>#communiques were denying that Egypt intended war.   

>That was the position they tried to convey to the outside world,
>true, but there is nothing new about that. No one ever admits
>that they want war, there is always some excuse. Even the Nazis
>claimed they are taking Poland etc "in self defense" or because
>the territories in question "really belonged to us".

>#The only similar
>#pronouncements that I've seen documented FROM THAT TIME had the 
>#conditional structure "We want peace, but if Israel attacks us, Israel 
>#will be destroyed".  

>Well, even Sadat (hardly a pro-Israeli source) quotes Nasser as
>knowing that closing the straits and sending the forces to Sinai
>would bring war. 

Before people start asking us to change our names to Charles and Eric,
I wish to make it clear that I am not debating the facts of 1967.
Frankly, I don't have time to do the necessary research.  My purpose
is merely to make some necessary remarks about the quality of evidence.

I didn't flame Alan for claiming that the 1967 war was Egypt's fault;
I flamed him for thinking that quoting some unsourced shit out of
Myths and Facts was a way to prove it.

Maybe you can establish the same things from genuine sources (real
histories like Neff, Lacqueur, or memoirs like Sadat). That's not 
the point.  I don't post things out of Background Briefing (a PLO
publication that our library gets) as "facts", so I don't see why
I should have any patience with people who do the equivalent.

>It must be possible to get some Arab newspapers from that time,
>as I have seen excerpts from them. I doubt, however, that Brown
>carries any. Anyway, the excerpts I have seen leave no doubt as
>to what the true intention was.

By all means find some real evidence.  Then I might reply in kind
(or at least I would if I had time).

>-Danny Keren.

Brendan.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:57:15 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Nov12.034250.12822@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
>
>	Jump in?!?  I'm already in it, neck high.  In fact I'm trying to 
>	climb out! :)

Why don't you do all of us a favor and take this via email - it has nothing
to do with talk.politics.mideast.

I'll send you a shovel ...

Anisa

	"The best kind - angry, rebellious, critical - a renegade ..."

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.lebanon
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Challenging the Emir (LONG)
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 03:52:15 GMT

In article <BxAwuC.AvM.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <4297@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Ohm Salam) writes:
>>Even though this article was written before the elections in October,
>>there are a few good points of interest in regard to the political
>>system in Kuwait.
>>
>
>I find it interesting that you would post this article free from
>your usual sarcasm.  Ironically, if any of the Kuwaitis mentioned in 
>this article addressed this group, you, Marwarn, jle, et al. would 
>doubtlessly jump down their throat with a cache of vulgar and
>childish insults.  

The truth usually hurts bad people and their fans.  Right Anwar Mxxxxxxd?

>All in all, I find this situation much more bearable than being under
>threat of getting a bullet in the head for spurious "collaboration" charges,
>a la the West Bank, etc.

Your morals don't measure up to the dignity of those in the West Bank
that fight injustice on a daily bases.  It is easy for you to
comment on them with your Dad's money in the bank.  Only Allah
SWT knows what kind of hell the west bank people are going thru by
the Israeli terrorist.  I advise you to just concentrate
on the toys your Dady bought you, and hope that Saddam does not
invade your country again while you are visiting Kuwait.  Why should
I say that any way?  The ones that suffered from the Iraqi invasion
were only the poor people of Kuwait.  Anwar probably was safe
in the west in the Disco, and the poor had to fight the occupation.

jle

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Those Wacky Iranians (Apologies to Harry)
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:55:18 GMT

sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:

#So, is this a good sign?  Does this mean that Syria
#is really serious about peace with Israel, and peace
#in the region?  

I sure hope so, but read on.

#I have no doubts Hussein wants a peaceful
#region, and a compromise on the territories.

I guess you are right.

#Asad could have allowed Iran to upset the frontline
#states, and radicalize the conflict by putting an
#Islamic, militant government on the East Bank.

Yes, but 

1) Assad is no Muslim fundamentalist.
2) After Jordan, maybe Syria would be next in line?? Why take the
   risk?

-Danny Keren.
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Date: 5 Nov 1992 17:57:24 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: galaxy.think.com

In article <1d9sckINN90o@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri) writes:
|> 
|> This is a quote from another Jewish scholar; Ralph Schoenman, who was the
|> Exec. Director of the Bertrand Russell Peace Foundation, and he is currently
|> the Exec. Director of the Palestine Campaign. In his book "The Hidden History
|> of Zionism" [1988], pg 69, he writes:
|> 	
|> 	The citrus and olive production of Lebanon south of Beirut was
|> 	destroyed. The Lebanese economy, whose exports had competed with
|> 	Israel's, became moribund. The south of Lebanon became an Israeli
|> 	market even as the headwaters of the Litani River, like the Jordan
|> 	River before it, were diverted by the Israelis.
|> 
|> How about that Noam?. I suspect you will attack Mr. Schoenman and call him
|> names like "self-hating Jew"...etc.

No.  I will simply say that I am familiar with the Golan Heights,
as well as Southern Lebanon, and that the above blanket accusation
is, to the best of my knowledge, baseless.

If you can provide any documented evidence saying how the water was diverted,
at which point, and where it crosses into Israel, I will reconsider.

I think that it is slightly insulting to the intelligence of TPM
readers to cite such an obviously biased source, making a blanket
accusation, while giving no details that would correberate or sustain
it.  I refrain from doing so, and would expect others to do so as well.
From: eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:01:04 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

In article <1992Nov4.171930.11972@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>
>#I think the term for this is "making the desert bloom"?
>
>Yeh, what a funny guy JH is! Unfortunately, Ramya is not in the desert.
>No doubt JH's knowledge of mideast geography is as good as that
>of history, and both are equaled by his personality.
>
>As for the eviction itself: Things like that happened in far larger
>dimensions in Arab countries (like during the consturction of the
>Asawn dam in Egypt), and also to Jews whoes houses had to be moved.
>I especially remember one such case in the Tel-Aviv area when such
>an eviction developed into a violent struggle between the police
>and some people who were evicted.
>

Danny, the issue here is that those Arabs of Israel (Palestinians) have been
living in Ramya for generations. Your argument that it "happens in far larger
dimensions in the Arab countries", is, first it may be false (provide your
documentations for this). Second, regardless if any other country does that,
it is still wrong, this is a weak argument. Remember Israel is "Oasis of Democracy
in the Middle East" that abides by a "Western type of Democracy". I think you
should compare Israel's action to (if any) the action France, U.S.A, ..etc.
Actually, this brings the issue of the selective democracy in Israel. 

At last, I would like to point out that your attitude from the whole subject
is rather racist. You are trying to portrait the Arab society as a society
that such actions of evicting and unfair treatement of the people is the norm
and "happens all the time". I am not saying that such things do not occur,
I think it does, but it is unjustifiable, it is wrong, and nobody would or
should accept it. Human beings should be allowed the freedom of choice to
live in their "own homeland". The residents of Ramya are being evicted in order
to place them with housing for new immigrants, we are not living in the "Wild
West and the Red Indians" era. Wake up Danny!


>Can someone supply more information about the case of Ramya (the
>size of the village - I remember 17 families), their current
>living conditions (rather poor as I recall) and the options
>offered to them?
>

So, I think you mean as long as these people are few poor paesants, it is
fine to take over their land. Danny... take a class in the Psychology of
prejudice, I am sure it will help you.

I am eager to hear how other readers are going to respond to this nonsense.

>-Danny Keren.
>

salam,

eyad
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 17:34:13 GMT

eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri) writes:


>Danny, the issue here is that those Arabs of Israel (Palestinians) have been
>living in Ramya for generations.

I just asked an Israeli Arab about that, and he pointed out that,
although he wasn't sure exactly how long those Arabs had been living
in Ramya, they were Bedouins and therefore could not have been living
there all that long.  His best estimate was maybe 30-40 years.  So
much for "living in Ramya for generations."

He also explained that the homes they have built were built without
permits, after being warned that they would be not be allowed to
stand.

>The residents of Ramya are being evicted in order
>to place them with housing for new immigrants, we are not living in the "Wild
>West and the Red Indians" era. Wake up Danny!

The plans for evicting the illegal residents of Ramya have been in
place long before the current wave of refugees from the Soviet Union.

>>Can someone supply more information about the case of Ramya (the
>>size of the village - I remember 17 families), their current
>>living conditions (rather poor as I recall) and the options
>>offered to them?
>>

>So, I think you mean as long as these people are few poor paesants, it is
>fine to take over their land. Danny... take a class in the Psychology of
>prejudice, I am sure it will help you.

Despite the fact that they were living there illegally, the Israeli
government is offering them an equal amount of land, of equal value,
in another Arab village on the same mountain.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast