HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ko@cns.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Turkish & Turkic (was Re: Macedonia (definition of name))
Date: 13 Apr 92 11:05:30 GMT
Organization: UMIST, Manchester, England.

cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas) writes:

>Followups to this will be directed to soc.culture.turkish only.

>In article <1992Apr6.164228.10708@cns.umist.ac.uk>, ko@cns.umist.ac.uk
>(Kutluk Ozguven) writes:
>>PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>>>         of course as late as the Turks from Central Asia,  but far after
>>
>>I will say that, contrary to what you think, there had been many
>>waves of migration of Turks before that "late" Ottoman presence,
>>and these go well back to the age of Roman Empire.
>>
>>First the Huns. There are ideas that they can be a non-Turkic

>Lots of info about Turkic peoples deleted.

>Does Kutluk Ozguven know the difference between Turkish and Turkic.
>I could post similar information about the Indoeuropeans, but so what?

>Constantinos A. Caroutas

Kutluk Ozguven knows what he says. The word Turkic is a creation
to differentiate the non-Ottoman Turks from the Ottoman ones by the
Westerners. They used the wide meaning word Turk to refer to the Ottomans.
In fact all those Turkic people call themselves Turk, as Greeks from Cyprus,
Crete or mainland all call themselves Greek despite the different dialects.
The word Turkic thus is as incorrect a reference as Indian to native American.

Your "Indo-European" analogy is poor. Why is it so painful to accept that
the Turks have been in Balkans since Roman times ?

Kutluk
From: HQ.GGG@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: test/deneme ignore/atlayabilirsiniz
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:52:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: Sunburn.9204081353.AA10936
Reply-To: Turkish Cultural Program List <TRKNWS-L%USCVM.BITNET@forsythe.Stanford.EDU>

Kapanan hesaplar icin deneme. 8 nisan 92

To:  TRKNWS-L@USCVM
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:4315 talk.politics.mideast:11016 talk.politics.soviet:3478 soc.culture.greek:3387
From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek
Subject: 'Gav*0' Goes To Turkish Genocide Museums In 'Erzurum' And 'Van.'
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:01:00 GMT


<22041522355761@WISCMACC.BitNet>
UCNICK@UMUC.BitNet (Nick Gavrielatos)

>I dont know about you mutlu, but i am in the point where i'm about
>to dump on you!

You can always move to another facility with two corners, 'Gav*0.'
 
Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
        by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
        1987, pp. 45-53.

"The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
 act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
 More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
 killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless 
 Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
 murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood 
 near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
 more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
 the hole was full it would be covered over with soil."

               (to be continued...)


Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)


Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:3981 talk.politics.mideast:10324 talk.politics.soviet:3247 soc.culture.soviet:2896 soc.culture.greek:3145 soc.culture.europe:3531 soc.culture.german:2873
From: hbm@ddsw1.UUCP
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: That Blind Spot Is Typical Of Revisionists And Those Who..., 'Eijkhout.'
Date: 14 Apr 92 23:27:00 GMT


<kujdhaINNp4j@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu>
eijkhout@cupid.cs.utk.edu (Victor Eijkhout)

|> In all seriousness,
|> a brief research on the genocide of 2.5 million Muslims by the 
|> Armenians pinpoints you as the guilty candidate. 

>In all seriousness? The guy quotes a few paragraphs and now he's guilty
>of genocide?

You cannot hear much when you're talking yourself, 'Eijkhout.' To listen
well you must actively focus your attention on what's being said. Still,
that blind spot is typical of Armenian terrorists and revisionists and 
those who try to cover up and apologize for their crimes. You can assert
whatever you want.

|> you are an intellectual sociopath, indifferent to truth

>Right. For a while it was amusing, 

When you have finished laughing I'd suggest you answer the points I've
raised in my articles. The burden of proof is on you.

>but now into the kill file
>you go, twerp.

You have been arguing with yourself; I never said a word about you
posting your bigotry and ignorance. Any comments?

Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 

p. 361 (fourth paragraph)

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, large
 eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble where meal
 lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet had gone through
 her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between the breasts one clot,
 too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He lay
 face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the pewter 
 bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed just below
 his neck, into the spine. 

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was empty
 of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking colonel.
 He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)
From: SEMIBRA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: OBITUARY------Prof. Feza GURSEY
Organization: Yale University
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 01:47:07 EDT

       PROFESSOR FEZA GURSEY       1921-1992
 
  Feza Gursey, retired Joshua Willard Gibbs Professor of Physics from
Yale University; inventor of the Nonlinear Sigma Model, the SU(6) hadron
classification and E6 grand unification; popularizer of quaternion and
octonion algebras in high energy physics; author of more than 100 papers
in high energy physics, general relativity, nuclear physics, solid state
physics and statistical physics; one of the founders of the physics department
of Middle East Technical University in Ankara, Turkey; winner of the
Turkish Scientific And Technical Research Council's Science Award,
Oppenheimer Award, Morrison Award, Einstein Medal, Wigner Medal,
College de France Medal, Istanbul University Medal,
`Commendatore' title of the Republic of Italy; educator; very special person.
He died today (April 13,1992) from the cancer that had been diagnosed last
summer.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:4243 talk.politics.mideast:10811 talk.politics.soviet:3433 soc.culture.soviet:3088 soc.culture.greek:3326 soc.culture.europe:3777
From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: They Were Murdered By The Armenian Government: The Turkish Genocide.
Date: 13 Apr 92 07:04:00 GMT


<koj91eINNjsm@girtab.usc.edu>
perkon@girtab.usc.edu (Perikles Konstantinides)

>I wanna get laid"..... 
>Finance, USC

Source: Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 
        1978.

pp. 169-170.

 'Kactiklari gunu Tilhas'li Mahmud Efendi'nin coluk ve cocugunu 
  dogradilar. Sipyatagi'li Hoca'nin dort oglunu kursunladilar. Jandarma
  Yuzbasisi Memduh ve hemsiresini Tasci Mahallesindeki evlerinde
  katlettiler.

  Isledikleri katliam korkunctur. Mesela Kanligol Mahallesinde bir adami
  oldurdukten sonra duvar kenarina dayamislar, gogsunu yarip cigerlerini
  ve girtlagini cikarip girtlagini agzina, cigerlerini de kucagina 
  vermislerdi.'

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:4085 talk.politics.mideast:10479 talk.politics.soviet:3325 soc.culture.soviet:2964 soc.culture.greek:3225 soc.culture.europe:3630
From: tekalp@ee.rochester.edu (A. Murat Tekalp)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: News
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:06:27 GMT
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science

8 Nisan 1992 TRT haber bulteninden ozetler:

Misir Devlet Baskani Husnu Mubarek resmi bir ziyaret amaciyla Turkiye'ye
geldi. Mubarek, Ozal ve Demirel ile ayri ayri gorusmelerde bulundu. Muba-
rek'in Ozal ile yaptigi gorusmeye Disisleri bakani Hikmet Cetin de katildi.

Kuzey Irak'daki muhalif Kurt gruplarin liderleri PKK'nin Kuzey Irak'tan Tur-
kiye'ye yaptigi saldirilari onleme karari aldi. Bu kararin sekiz Kurt par-
tisini cephesinde toplayan Kurdistan Cephesi tarafindan alindigi aciklandi.

Devlet bakani ve basbakan yardimcisi Inonu Turkiye'nin teror gruplarinca yu-
rutulen ve gerceklere dayanmayan bir propoganda hareketi ile karsi karsiya
bulundugunu soyledi.


SPOR
Dun Ankara'da oynanan ozel macta A Milli futbol takimi Danimarka'yi 2-1 
yendi. Milli takimin gollerini 30.dakikada Hami (serbest vurustan), ve 
89.dakikada Hakan atti.

Trabzon - Fenerbahce macindan sonra cikan olaylardan dolayi, Futbol 
federasyonu Trabzon'un sahasini IKI MAC icin kapatti ve ayrica 10 milyon TL 
para cezasi verdi. Bu nedenle bu haftaki Trabzon - Galatasaray maci 
Ankara'da, 15 Nisan'daki Trabzon - Besiktas Kupa maci da Samsun'da oynanacak.
(yorum: bakalim Trabzon seyircisi adam gibi mac seyretmeyi ne zaman
ogrenecek?)

Turkiye I.Futbol ligi gol kralliginda Besiktasli Feyyaz ve Trabzonlu Hami
17 golle basta, ikinci sirada 16 golle Fenerbahceli Aykut var.

Basketbol final grubu maclari devam ediyor. Yari finale yukselen ilk iki takim
belli oldu: Fenerbahce ve Pasabahce. Diger iki takim Cuma gunu yapilacak
Kolej - Cukurova ve Efes - Tofas maclarindan sonra belli olacak.
From: suley@xantos.uio.no (Suleyman Kondakci)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greece
Subject: Re: How European Is Greece, 'Geo T.?' If The Criterion Is Geography,...
Date: 9 Apr 92 09:02:44 GMT
Reply-To: suley@xantos.uio.no (Suleyman Kondakci)
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway

In article <1992Apr8.104338.1731@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au>,
89u1569@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au writes:
> 
> 
> 	Fuck off dickhead. Who care what you think. I have no intention to
have
> a conversation with you. You are blind. You talk out of your ass. See
ya later
> in your 500+ line answer to this.
> 	Get a fucking life DICKHEAD.
	
	BEGIN [ No_Flame ]
		What a language, shame on you Goe T!. Is it supposed 
		to represent Greek morals or your own ?

		Besides this seems to be very private. Why don't you
		send it directly to him instead of browsing your
		ugly quality of morals here?
	END [No_Flame ]

Selam getirmisem
S.Kondakci

> 
> > Hasan B-) Mutlu
> > 
> >                      'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
> >                       and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
> >                       Turkish children also should be killed as 
> >                       they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
> >                                      (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)
> > 
> > 
> 
> Just don't bug us. We diont care ...
> 	Geo T.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:3963 talk.politics.mideast:10277 soc.culture.europe:3496 soc.culture.german:2845
From: suley@xantos.uio.no (Suleyman Kondakci)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Germany's aggression against Turkey
Date: 6 Apr 92 09:24:18 GMT
Reply-To: suley@xantos.uio.no (Suleyman Kondakci)
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway

In article <1992Apr2.191115.510@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>,
Andreas.Bartelt@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (Andreas Bartelt)
writes:
> tekalp@ee.rochester.edu (A. Murat Tekalp) writes:
> 
> >It is my opinion that the latest aggression of Germany against
Turkey
> >can be simply explained by the good-old ``divide and conquer"
tactic,
> >motivated by their desire to become an established world power. I
think
> >the whole world sees this clearly. Why do you think that Germany is
> >singled out in their aggression against Turkey's effort to curb
terrorism?
> 
> I only can tell you my personal poiny of view. And thats i see the
Kurdish 
> people get killed in Irak some month before and now get killed again
in Turkey.

	I agree with you Andreas. But there is a 'but' in a massacring case
	of Kurds in Iraq. Yo do remember, I guess. Germany has supported Iraq
	to produce chemical/biological wapons. Those wapons have, not so many
	years ago, been used to a total distraction of Kurds, chlidren women,
	civialians, etc. This was an indirect crime, not smilar to that of the
	'gassing of Jews in Europe", committed by Germany against Kurds.

	Now I don't understand why Germany suddenlay become a humanitarian
	nation, caring about Kurds, caring about all the minorities in the
world??
	This 'but' on my mind drives me crazy, I cannot get an answer, do you
	have one?

	I have now a simple question: What was your reaction to 
	massacring of Kurds by German wapons? Did you ever think of
	condemning Germany for the commitment of such an inhuman crime?
	Did you ever think of organizing (or joining the existing activists) 
	an action against that inhumanity?
	 

> It isn't simple terrorism what the Kurds do. It is a war in
> response to suppression they get from the Turkey and from Irak. 
> The Kurds are a nation without a land. And they are accepted in no
other
> land...   

	Smilar words have been used during splitting of Yugoslavia.
	We do all know that it was only Germany and Austria supporting, with
	military machinery, different minorities in Yugoslavia.
	Germany is now carrying on the same 'divide and conquer' tactics
	in order to reach its old daydream.
	
> Maybe like the Jews some years before they get israel as an own land.
> (And so made a part of the palaestina people homeless...) 
> That's a circle of death and war that only can find an end when
minorities have 
> their rights or own land(not captured from others). 

	After all it's very easy to cause problems,
	however solutions are always bloodthirsty dragons.
 
> Bye,
>        Andreas
> 
> 
	Selam getirmisem
	Suleyman Kondakci
From: HQ.GGG@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: 11 suspected Dev-Sol members killed
Date: 17 Apr 92 15:11:02 GMT
Reply-To: Turkish Cultural Program List <TRKNWS-L%USCVM.BITNET@forsythe.Stanford.EDU>

8:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
17 April 1992
BBC just reported that Turkish police killed 11 people
suspected of belonging to an extreme left organization
in raids to suspected hide-outs in Istanbul.
Some of the members of the organization (Dev-Sol) were
captured live.


To:  TRKNWS-L@USCVM.BITNET
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:3985 talk.politics.mideast:10328 talk.politics.soviet:3251 soc.culture.soviet:2900 soc.culture.greek:3149 soc.culture.europe:3535 soc.culture.german:2876
From: han@sarp.utaaic.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: ...To Let The Dirty Work Be Done By Others, 'Milanini.'
Date: 7 Apr 92 04:44:00 GMT


<1992Apr05.232030.20501@microsoft.com>
marcmil@microsoft.com (Marc MILANINI)

>If you want to do what you want with your arms, why don't you make them
>yourselves ?

Did you ever visit Turkiye at all?

>Yes, sure, please forgive me. I had forgotten that it is so important
>to have weapons in order to prepare one's own future.

Paying lip service is not enough, 'milanini;' the history speaks
for itself. In the 1960's it became apparent to the KGB that it
would not be possible to conquer the Western World by war in the
nuclear age without destroying the USSR as well. So, it invented
what we now call 'state terrorism' as a tool of Soviet foreign 
policy. That involved the services of client states such as Syria
and Iraq and occasionally other states, to let the dirty work be
done by others. In the 1960 and 1970's the KGB is said to have
spent $1 billion specifically to destabilize Turkiye. 

>Being 25% Basque and 25% Corsican, I know what I am talking about.
>You don't. There is a difference between jailing terrorists, and
>bombing an entire population with foreign made aircraft.

There is a difference between massacring 3000+ defenseless people and 
cleaning up most of the PKK bases with Turkish made weapons.

>If it is so vital for you, why don't you convince someone else to
>sell you arms ?

Why bother? Germany's military aid totals DM 130 million.

>Probably, they prefer to have their hands dirty rather than bloody...

Is that why six million people were killed in concentration camps,
in gas chambers, in the worst ways imaginable? Some 'dirt.'

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)
From: madjdsad@girtab.usc.edu (Zagros Madjd-Sadjadi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: A diplomatic agreement on the number of Kurds?
Date: 9 Apr 1992 00:03:47 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu


Subject: Re: Kurdish population in Turkey
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet

In soc.culture.turkish camas@trooa.enet.dec.com (Yuksel Camas) write




>	According to the 'World Almanac and Book of Facts' (World Almanac, 
>	New York, 1991), the Kurdish population in Turkey is 12% of 
>	Turkey's total population (that's around 6,785,000 out of the total 
>	estimated population of 56,549,000 in 1990).

Ahmmm.  This just goes to show that the estimates differ as I have repeatedly
said.  Can't we stop arguing over the numbers?  We are NEVER going to
convince each other OR ANYONE ELSE.  For every world almanac you pull out,
I can pull out 25-30 articles from western press sources, the International
Committee of the Red Cross, Amnesty International, the World Bank, the United
Nations, the Minority Rights Group, etc. supporting my figures.  In fact, I
can also (if I want to do what Mutlu does) "prove" that the number of Kurds
in Turkey is actually a majority (if I change the definition from that of
self-defintion to one based on saying that anyone who is, say, 1/16 Kurdish
is Kurdish....

How about it?  We will simply state that the number of Kurds in Turkey is 
somewhere between 10 and 25% (the upper and lower estimates).  Then, everyone
can be happy because no matter what your source, you will fall within it.
In any case, it is a sizeable minority.

Besides there are a lot more interesting issues to discuss like the fact that
there was no acknowledgement of a Kurdish presence in Turkey for most of
Turkey's existance, the fact that the restrictions on Kurdish were only
lifted in 1991, and the fact that the Mutlu still doesn't realize that the
year is 1992, not 1929....

Regards,

Zagros

Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:4042 talk.politics.mideast:10434 talk.politics.soviet:3293 soc.culture.soviet:2935 soc.culture.greek:3187 soc.culture.europe:3583
From: han@sarp.utaaic.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Activate A Few Billion Of Them, 'sasha.'
Date: 7 Apr 92 04:45:00 GMT


<1992Apr6.125223.12434@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>
sasha@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alexander.kostomaroff)

>In his posting "Brilliant Logic, 'Michael Collier'" hasan b. mutlu writes:
>>I am at a loss
>>I'll hide behind my ears. 
>Finally, Hasan, you are telling the truth. Congratulations!

Always. Activate a few billion extra brain cells when you encounter
something you want to remember, 'sasha.' The mind has a way of
forgetting the facts.

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)

Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:4108 talk.politics.mideast:10571 talk.politics.soviet:3343 soc.culture.soviet:2989 soc.culture.greek:3247 soc.culture.europe:3658
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: A review of one of Mutlu's Sources
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:01:53 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.



Thanks for the info.  Not having read the book, I wonder if you
wouldn't filling us in on a few other things.


Are we to understand that Rawlinson spoke
Kurdish and Armenian ?  (and maybe even Turkish). Does it say
anywhere in the book ?

Does he make any observations anywhere that the Tartars were
physically identifiable from the rest of the population of the
area (i.e. Kurds, Turks, Armenians). Since Tartar was used by
Russians for all Turkic peoples (and even some nonturkic ones)
I wonder if these were real Tartars. And he says they came
from the East. East Anatolia ?  That is East Anatolia.  East as
in East of the Caspian or East as in Azerbaijan ?

Thanks.
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu