HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alexpace@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Alex L. Pace)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Who is forcing Idealism? (Was: Re: Quote from Clinton?)
Date: 26 Jan 1993 05:10:01 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: sylvester.cc.utexas.edu

In article <1993Jan25.154830.27246@cs.mun.ca> ac@riemann.math.mun.ca (Alka
Chandna) writes:

>Time now for our regularly scheduled disagreement.  Part of Clinton's message
>was that human fetal tissue will be used in disease research.  In fact, this
>is very appropriate since this tissue is *dead* and would otherwise be thrown
>out.  Being human tissue, the results that it gives will be much more applic-
>able to human disease than anything animal research could hope to muster up.

Actually Dr Carey was experimenting on cat head trama because a cat's brain
is actually better understood than a human's but many of the chemicals in a
cats brains do the same thing in human brains.  A better understanding of
these chemicals allowed the good doctor to save lives during the Gulf War.


>  The withholding of the *choice* 
>from women who go to PP clinics for advice on what to do with an unwanted 
>pregnancy is the issue to which Clinton made the reference, "Ideological
>concepts ..".

How would Clinton feel about those who's ideological bent would seek to
limit America's *choice* to eat whatever it wants.

alex the omnivore
From: romingk@alleg.edu (Karl Rominger)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Book Review - "Free the Animals!" by Ingrid Newkirk
Date: 27 Jan 93 14:21:25 GMT
Reply-To: romingk@alleg.edu
Organization: Allegheny College

In article <1993Jan25.144613.26315@cs.mun.ca> ac@riemann.math.mun.ca (Alka  
Chandna) writes:
> swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG) writes:
> 
> >thmiley@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Tim Miley) writes:
> 
> >` If they go into
> >`a lab with camera and bear witness to the abuses of the vivisectors  
and show
> >`their "science" to be the fraud that it is, then I am much less  
hesitant.
> 
> >They are not let in the door.  When they go in, they must sneak in and
> >film against the will and rights of the lab(s) involved. 
> 
> Are you saying Scott that breaking and entering is a more serious crime  
than
> the sort of procedures that have been brought to light by the ALF -  
stuff
> like the experiments at the University of Pennsylvania, where federal  
funding
> for the work was *cut off*.  Surely, one can go beyond "bad" and "good",  
"legal"and "illegal", to speak of such things as what Martin Luther King  
referred to
> when he spoke of obeying a law that says not to cross at a red light.   
But, he 
> continued, 
> when there's a dying man on the other side of the road, you really don't  
care
> if the light is red or not: you cross the road!
> 
>  They also must
> >shirk the responsibility of their hired position (as they usually take  
on
> >medial tasks - most often being the ones truely responsible for the  
care
>                 ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> >and upkeep of the animals' habitations) to spend the multitude of time
> 
> Do you have data which backs up this claim (i.e., that members of the  
ALF
> habitually take on jobs as animal caretakers to blow open a case).  If  
you
> have such information, don't you think that you should let the FBI know  
about
> it, since it would probably make solving all of these cases immensely  
easy.
> 
> >required to get truely good incriminating photos.
> >Any of you involved in photography or video production can attest to  
the
> >amount of film time that will hit the editing room or the dark room  
floor
> >to get one useful shot.
> 
> This is why it's especially nice of animal researchers, like those at  
the
> head crash lab at the Univ. of Penn., to document their callousness &  
question-
> able (from a scientic & ethical viewpoint) experiments all by  
themselves.  That
> way, when the folks in balaklavas come to see what's on the go, they can  
just
> pick up the videotapes and be on their way.
> 
> alka

Ya but there are legal procedures.  And who can trust ALF.  They ruin alot  
of good experiments. So even if they do uncover one bad one once in a  
while, their tactics destroy positive experiments as well.  What gave  
these econuts the sudden knowledge of what constitues and good experiment  
or not?  seeeesh.  And then they release the lab animals to die.  Nice  
guys.  Oh and Gals (gotta be PC ya know)

Karl
Xref: sparky talk.politics.animals:11425 alt.peeves:19434
From: geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,alt.peeves
Subject: "... man tends to be lazy"
Followup-To: talk.politics.animals,alt.peeves
Date: 21 Jan 1993 22:20:33 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Menlo Park, Ca
Distribution: world
Reply-To: geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: purplehaze.corp.sun.com



ac@riemann.math.mun.ca (Alka Chandna) writes:

>p.s.: I've noticed a real ugly sort of hostility directed against male AR
>posters, which reeks of "you guys are sissies & probably don't get it enough"


Well, there's a reason for that, Alka: it's because they probably are.

Surely you won't deny that the overwhelming majority of AR types are
women.  In fact, the magazine _The Animals' Agenda_ published the results
of a demographic study of their readership in their November 1992 issue,
and fully 78% of their readers are female.  Since there's no reason to
suspect that this magazine's readership doesn't map directly onto the 
AR population at large, I'd say it's beyond question that the numbers 
paint an accurate picture.

It's not terribly difficult to understand *why* most bunny huggers are
women, either.  Women, having been genetically conditioned over the
milennia to be mothers, have a stronger nurturing instinct than men
do.  They're also, as a group, far more emotional and sentimental than
men are, which is evidenced by the fact that the customers in Hallmark 
shops are overwhelmingly female, and by the chorus of female voices
gushing "Awwwww!" in a theater anytime there's a cutesy animal scene in
a movie.  Also, being more emotional creatures than males are, it
naturally follows that they tend to get swept up in sentimental and 
fundamentally irrational causes in far greater numbers than men do.

Given the above, it's easy to understand how the relatively few men in
the animal rights movement are often looked upon as wimps and sissies.
As children, most of them were probably the sort of kids who often got
pantsed by the schoolyard bully during recess.  


Geoff


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller			+ + + + + + + +        Sun Microsystems
geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM	+ + + + + + + +     Menlo Park, California
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

---
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller			+ + + + + + + +        Sun Microsystems
geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM	+ + + + + + + +     Menlo Park, California
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,alt.activism,rec.food.veg
From: itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken)
Subject: Re: Books review- "Free the Animals" By Ingrid Newkirk
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:54:26 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.145803.26460@cs.mun.ca> ac@riemann.math.mun.ca (Alka Chandna) writes:
>itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken) writes:
>
>>I can not believe this.  Spare us you glorification of the "dedicated"
>>activist.  They are terrorist!  Nothing more than common criminals.  I
>>view your glowing accounts of this activity as irresponsible and an
>>unethical.
>
>Believe it, Greg.  And if you don't want to read my "glorifications" of the
>ALF, put me on your kill file,

I don't use kill files.

>but don't tell me what to think. 

You asked for feedback on the article.  I gave it to you.  
Oh, and if its so wrong for me to tell you what to think, perhaps it would
be appropriate for me to bomb your office building or threaten lives of
you and your family in order to intimidate you into complying with my beliefs.
This is the tactic of the ALF!

> I define
>"terrorism" in a slightly different manner than you do. 

Or the FBI for that matter.

> You see, I think 
>that animal experimenters are terrorists, nothing more than the sort of
>people that set their dog on fire or put their cat in the microwave oven to
>see what will happen .. except they get published & paid for doing that.
>Our ethics are very different.  I wasn't brought up to think of animals as
>being some lesser form of life.  I wasn't made to believe that humans have 
>souls while animals don't.  It is part of the way that I was brought up, and
>indeed, part of my cultural heritage to INCLUDE ANIMALS IN MY MORAL UNIVERSE.
>Viewing animals as "things", as means to *our* ends is, in my opinion, 
>morally bankrupt, and certainly unethical.  Promoting that viewpoint in the 
>manner that you do, I believe, is most irresponsible.

But, promoting criminal activity, attempted murder, arson are not.

You have a right to your beliefs.  Up to the point were it starts
infringing on my right to my beliefs.

Question:  How do you propose we go about finding a cure for AIDS, cancer
etc...?

Greg Popken

-- 
The opinions expressed here are my own.  **   Knowledge goes on forever! 
Which is to say they belong to me.       **   Spelling stops at the 
And these opinions, which belong to me,  **   end of the page.
are mine.                                *******************************
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca ()
Subject: Re: LSU Cat Shooting
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 11:40:39 GMT

In <C1G9JG.HsA@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

> -- sport hunting is "necessary" and "justifiable", and hence,
>    not cruel.

> -- mink coats are "necessary" and "justifiable", and hence,
>    not cruel.

Why is it that AR people emphasize fur or seal skin so much in
comparison to say leather? As I see it, it is either because they are
trapped but then mink farms should be OK; or because furry things are
so cute; or because fur is regarded as mainly cosmetic. If it's the
latter, in my neck of the woods fur coats and hats are every bit
as functional as leather. Leather may be the best for footwear, but
leather jackets are largely cosmetic.

btw, I think both sport hunting and mink coats are entirely justifiable.

Werner
From: achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach)
Subject: Re: "... man tends to be lazy"
Organization: TI Semiconductor Process and Design Center
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:31:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.183148.213@cs.mun.ca> ac@riemann.math.mun.ca (Alka Chandna) writes:
>
>On the other hand, there are loads of people who've never even thought of issuesconcerning animal rights.  For those people, it is *we, the animal rights folks*, who haven't necessarily been lazy, but could probably extend ourselves a wee
>bit further to try to get the ideas out and present alternatives to the meat-
>centred diet.
>
>For the people who know the issues (health, environmental concerns, animal
>concerns), but don't care about the first two and care even less about the
>third, never say never.  I personally had thought about the ethics surrounding
>the animal "sacrifice" because my mother was (& is) a vegetarian for religious/
>ethical reasons for a long time, but I would just feel guilty everytime I got
>a hamburger.  There was no sense that I could change if I wanted to.  By con-
>trast, a good friend of mine had been downright hostile to the ethical concerns
>associated with vegetarianism.  He became a vegan before I did.
>

I have thought about all these things. I eat a more balanced diet (including
meat) as a result of the first. As to environmental concerns, I believe wild
game to be more environmentally benign than any agricultural product, be it
animal or vegetable. And I have worked on an organic farm, by the way. Even
"organic" fertilizers can run off into a pond or lake and accelerate
eutrophication. I have considered the ethical concerns of killing other animals
for many years and still do. I simply have not reached the same conclusions 
as the ARs. IMO, in an ideal world, we would all be hunter/gatherers. 

>
>alka
>
>p.s.: I've noticed a real ugly sort of hostility directed against male AR
>posters, which reeks of "you guys are sissies & probably don't get it enough"
>Do you think you might want to grow up today or preferably, yesterday?  Or 
>would you like me to give you details on how disgusting meat-eating males can
>taste?  
>

Now this could be interesting. I had a girlfriend once who claimed too much 
coffee caused a bitter taste in certain bodily fluids which I am far too 
refined to mention. Haven't heard anything about meat. 

Jeff Achenbach
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,alt.peeves
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Scabies experiments at Wright State University
Date: 25 Jan 93 22:25:55 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1993Jan25.162618.18227@pixel.kodak.com> young@clpd.kodak.com writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.031214.3370@zooid.guild.org> rwaigh@zooid.UUCP (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>>
>>From a new PETA pamphlet, entitled "Where, Oh Where Did This Little Dog Come
>>From?"
>>
>>"Fourteen states prohibit seizing animals from pounds for experiments.  Ohio
>>still permits 'pound seizue,' although public opinion is against it.
>
>	How many would have been euthanized at the pounds due to overcrowding
>	had they not been used for lab experiments?
>

Maybe all of them. At least they wouldn't have been subject to the
considerable distress that Rosemary describes.

>	                                                      A scabies
>	infestation, on the other hand, requires application of 5% permethrin
>	TO THE ENTIRE BODY to kill the mites, which is not a particularly
>	simple or pleasant process.  How would you like to be immersed in
>	pesticide?  A vaccine might be useful and Dr. George's remarks would 
>	seem to be misleading, if not hasty.
>
>-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)


You apply a lotion to the entire body (although usually only from the
neck down), leave it overnight, shower it off in the morning. Not
particularly difficult or unpleasant. I suggest that your phrase
"immersed in pesticide" is misleading, if not hasty.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,alt.peeves
From: dmunroe@vcd.hp.com (Dave Munroe)
Subject: Re: "... man tends to be lazy"
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:23:52 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard

achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach) writes:

>Is this the voice of experience?

Why, yes.  Some of the most attractive women on the west coast have told
me that the flavor of my cum ranges between that of mocha, latte, and
cappuccino.

-Dave
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,rec.food.veg
From: omitchel@jarthur.claremont.edu (Ocie Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Cancer (was Re: Ingrid's lies.)
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 08:25:38 GMT

In article <swood.727921707@vela> swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG) writes:
[usefull discussion deleted]
>
>swood
>-- 
> All Month  Rabbit and Crow are legal to hunt all month in Michigan
>  Current   Michigan Canada Goose special late season still open
>      (Southern Michigan Game Management unit only w/stamp)
>         <<<<<<  Only nine months until bow season!!! >>>>>>

Great, I love to hunt bow, I have a few stuffed bow in my den.
Ocie

----------------------------------------------+-------------------------------
``What do you think sirs?''  -Joel (mst3k)    | .sig lite- all .sig no guilt
----------------------------------------------+------------------------------- 
   __             _ _ _                       | Ocie Mitchell
  / ')           ' ) ) )  _/_    /      /) /) | omitchel@jarthur.claremont.edu
 /  / _. o _      / / / o /  _. /_  _  // //  | Q:is that your real name? 
(__/ (__(_(<_    / ' (_(_(__(__/ /_(<_(/_(/_  | A:yes, it is my real name.
----------------------------------------------+-------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: mhulsey@hestia.fcs.uga.edu (Martin Hulsey)
Subject: Re: 60 min.  Cat Shooting
Followup-To: talk.politics.animals
Organization: Dept. Foods & Nutrition, Univ. of GA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:51:52 GMT

In article <C1FFC8.ELp@wpg.com>, russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) wrote:
> 
>[...]
> > [lots and lots of Sixty Minutes stuff deleted]

I don't blame you; I imagine that it is very painful to read.  When I first
heard of the segment, I thought of you, boo-hooing in your beer.

It appears that your arguments have been shot (pun intended) to hell.  I
can't wait to see how you weasel out of this predicament.
 
> I'm going to address your comments in detail, but not without additional
> investigation.  In particular, I want to have a chat with James Gill
> at the Times-Picayune, who allegedly interviewed some of the LSU 
> employees who had complained about the cat screams.  

Allegedly is the key word here.  You are not seriously going to persist
with this argument are you?

> Meanwhile, please call Enid Neidle at the American Dental Association
> and ask her whether or not the ADA would consider Sixty Minutes to be:
> 
> a) a purveyor of reliable information; or
> b) a television tabloid that's unconcerned about the factual
>    basis of its coverage.

When it suits your purpose, newspapers and television are perfectly
reliable sources of information (the Gerone fiasco that you perpetrated is
a keen example).  Your blatant double standard is again showing.

--
mhulsey@hestia.fcs.uga.edu (Martin G. Hulsey)
Neuroscience, NRA-ILA, SSIB, NAASO, IASO
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Re: Combine'd' laziness
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 14:23:10 GMT

russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
`> you still need to put away 600 grams of boiled
`> soybeans to get the 1500 mg of Methionine/day that's recommended for
`> adults. (Ref. National Research Council, "Recommended daily
`> allowances" 1986, page 44)

`If this were true, you'd have to put away about 300 grams of cooked
`hamburger each day, which would weigh roughly one pound before 
`cooking.  And these 300 grams of meat would contain approximately 
`63 grams of fat, about 200 mgs of cholesterol, and no fiber 
`whatsoever.  Do you know a good cardiologist, Andy?  

What?  You think all us omnivores do is sit around and eat meat all day?
That is the way your one sided arguements try to make things look.  A couple
of threads back, you tried to make it look like the non-vegan crowd only ate
meat, by suggesting how much meat it would take to feed a human for a year.
Then you tried to make it look like he would be burning up MORE resources
by conceding the fact he would have to eat more veggies without adding in
the fact that this would drastically cut down an individuals use of meat
resources.

Did you ever happen to think that the same person that eats a quarter pounder
(rather than your whole pounder example) hamburg might just have a well rounded
diet of grains, fruits, vegetables, and MEAT, FISH, and DAIRY products?

swood
-- 
 All Month  Rabbit and Crow are legal to hunt all month in Michigan
  Current   Michigan Canada Goose special late season still open
      (Southern Michigan Game Management unit only w/stamp)
         <<<<<<  Only nine months until bow season!!! >>>>>>
Xref: sparky talk.politics.animals:11393 alt.activism:21106 rec.food.veg:12345
From: mad4@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Maddex)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,alt.activism,rec.food.veg
Subject: VEGAN:  Mushroom & Kale Saute
Date: 21 Jan 93 03:57:50 GMT
Reply-To: mad4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: Pranksters for Peace

There's been some discussion of kale of late, so here's my bit.  This is from
the Autum issue of Vegetarian Gourmet, where it's in a piece on It's Only
Natural, a great looking vegan place in Middletown, CO.  I assume this dish
is meant as a side, but over couscous, millet or bulghur it's a quickie meal.

serves 4 as a side, 2 as an entree

1T olive oil (I use about 1t, but hey)
1T minced garlic 
1T soy margerine (I omit this)
8 oz. white mushrooms (to make this really good try oysters or chantrelles)
4C kale, tightly packed
1/4C water
1t tamari
salt and pepper to taste
5 cherry tomatoes, quartered (this time of year I tear up dried tomatoes)

Heat olive oil on medium in a 4 1/2 q sauce pan.  Add garlic and margerine
(if used) and saute until garlic is lightly browned.  Add veggies and stir
15-30 seconds, making sure not to burn the garlic.  Add water, tamari, salt
and pepper and cook another 5 minutes, stirring often.  Add tomatoes and cook
another 5 minutes on low.  Serve immediately.

Billy Magic

"So little of what might happen does happen."
					Salvador Dali
From: jsemrad@ems.cdc.com (Joe Semrad)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: La Cat Shooting Experiments
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:37:45 GMT
Reply-To: jsemrad@ems.cdc.com
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of CDC


Hey, Russell, after watching Sixty Minutes last night I can see why you
havn't been real enthusiastic about posting the information you have
about Dr. Kerry's cat experiments.  While the experiments are not
particularly pleasant, I feel much better about them after seeing
more detail.  Russell, why have you never mentioned the GAO report in
your references to the experiments?

BTW, Neal Barnard is a lot younger than I had pictured him.  He certainly
looked shocked when told that the letter about screaming cats was
made up.

Another thing that struck me was a picture of a parading protester
carrying a large drawing of a cat and a mouse.  In real life, if the cat and
mouse were that close together the cat would be trying to kill the mouse,
and perhaps playing with it a bit first.

I am continually amazed about the differences in coverage of an issue or
event by the mainstream press and what little I see of the AR press 
(including what I read from the AR folks here in t.p.a).  When a little
digging is done, many times it seems that the AR press leaves out some
essential, but damaging, facts.

Joe
All opinions mine...
-- 
================================================================
= C. Joseph Semrad                  =   Phone: 612-553-4758    =
= EMPOWER Development               =   FAX:   612-553-4018    =
= Empros Systems International      =   jsemrad@ems.cdc.com    =
================================================================
=    "My basic view on tackle and equipment costs is that      =
=     fly fishers as a group spend too much and spin           =
=     fishers spend too little" - Stream Smallmouth Fishing    =
================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals