HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: curcija@risky.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Concentration Camps in Former Yugoslavia
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:34:40 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Originator: curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu


	This is excerpt from "Vreme" br. 96, article: Return to the past: 
To each his own camp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
...
    In short, no one has a clear  conscience or clean hands, nor can they be
    cleansed: the  possible locations of  the prisons/camps for  civilians -
    imprisoned only  because they belonged  to this or  that nation, because
    they were "in the path of our of the armies" or because they can be used
    in exchanges between  the warring "sides" - are shown  on the map. As to
    the reliability of the details and the map, last week's statement by the
    ICRC and its spokesman's announcement (the  very fact that the Red Cross
    is  not  given  access  to  some  sites  speaks  for  itself)  should be
    sufficient. Withholding  permission to visit  the camps with  the excuse
    that  the "road  is not  safe" is   just a  hint of  what is  considered
    craftiness  ("on all  three sides")  here  and  not, to  put it  mildly,
    hypocrisy.

    Vreme  was  able  to  establish  that  at  least  some of the reciprocal
    accusations were false. There are  no concentration camps for Moslems in
    Subotica, Niksic, Aleksinac, Batajnica or  in the July 4th Army garrison
    in  Belgrade; there  are probably  none in  Srpac, Loznica or Prijepolje
    either. There are no camps/prisons for Serbian civilians in the Sarajevo
    Central Prison  or in the  prison in the  former Yugoslav Army's  Viktor
    Bubanj garrison.  Rumours about "private  prisons" in Sarajevo  - people
    armed with all kinds of weapons lock up  people so as to be able to loot
    their homes their homes in peace - have not been disputed.

    Undoubtedly  the  camps  exist.  They  even  existed  during  the  brief
    "Slovene" war (mine shafts, abandoned railway tunnels, sports halls, and
    football  stadiums are  ideal for  all sides),  the considerably  longer
    "Croatian",  the unfinished  Bosnian-Herzegovinian and,  there is  ample
    reason to fear, in future Balkan wars.
                                                            Aleksandar Ciric
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards,
Dragan


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historia  Magistra  Vitae  Est
___________________________________________________________________________
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8016 soc.culture.europe:7394
From: Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Electronic Matchmaker
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 01:31:06 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Yugoslavian women, having a problem finding an Yugoslavian man?  I am 
about to launch a free electronic matching service on Usenet.  Thanks 
to the imbalance of men to women on Usenet, more guys than gals have 
expressed an interest so far.  If you would like to see the fifth 
draft of my questionnaire so we can alter it to also fit women's 
needs as well as men's, either send me mail or look at the copy I 
posted in alt.personals.  
 
This service is serious and I already have 280 men and 155 women 
signed up so far.  The site of the service has already been selected 
and programming has begun.
 
I should point out that this questionnaire really, really, really, 
needs some more input on CULTURES.  I need some questions to make sure
that matches are compatible culturally.
 
                                                            Eric Klien
From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Banjica the death camp   Was: Re: Flames
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:54:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: src.1992Aug20.215416.27003
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park

In article <1992Aug20.121635.14942@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>In article <1992Aug19.214145.7420@src.umd.edu> Josip Loncaric writes:
>>
>>>        -Banjica - not a death camp, but concentration camp.  Hostages
>>                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Incorrect.  It WAS a death camp, people held there were taken out to be shot 
>>in groups ranging from 100 to 300, day by day.
>>
>>>were kept there, under the request from Germans.  Special police had
>>>secondary authority there, and kept resistance fighters.
>>>Some people resisting, were really killed there by Serbian police.
>>
>>Including at least 128 children shot by Serbian guards, according to the 
>>reference I've quoted.  Do you really believe that only "some people 
>>resisting" were killed by Serbian police?
>
>
>Banjica operated for 3 years.  Would you mind providing us with some 
>date, how many people were actually killed in Banjica?  Something is 
>fishy with you numbers and claims.  And you seem to be backing away from 
>128 children.  What is the age of those children?  25? 

If you did your own research, you would not be so confused.  Under the
entry "Banjicki logor u Beogradu" in "Enciklopedija Jugoslavije" we find:

(Translated from Serbian language source):

"The exact number of persons who passed through Banjica camp is 
undetermined, because of sloppy bookkeeping, but it is known that
23,637 persons were signed in, and that in Jajinci 68,000 corpses
were burned and 1,400 left unburned; majority of those shot in
Jajinci was brought through Banjica camp.  It was determined that
the age of camp prisoners had ranged from 7 to more than 50, that
of those signed into books there are 21,430 males and 2,207 females,
most of whom were farmers (10,805), then workers (6,045), intellectuals
(4,471), other professions (2,299) and priests (38)."

NOTE: Obviously, only a minority of those actually shot had been signed in.

This is even more tragic than I had imagined...  The encyclopedia
also says that Banjica was created as an institution for breaking people
physically, morally, and pshyhically; and lists various beastly methods
of breaking human dignity and spiritual strength.  Banjica was,
it seems, primarily a torture camp, people were killed only afterwards.


Josip
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 10:09:40 GMT

in article <Bsy0BM.2wC@news.cso.uiuc.edu> on 13 Aug 92 22:11:45 GMT
Constantinos Varnavas writes:

 >> I repeat:  Macedonia did not participate in the Olympic games simply because it
 >> is not recognized.

Is the truth so hard for you to apprehend? Macedonians were at the Olimpic Games.
What kind of proof do you whant. The best proof I can think of is the article
from the newspaper.

 >>  I did not see any
 >> "Republic of Macedonia" in the opening ceremonies, I did not see the
 >> "Macedonian" flag

Did you see a Russion flag in the opening of the ceremony? I will say the answer: NO.
This does not mean that Russia was not on the Games. I presume you know that the Russians
were competitng under an Olympic Flag, the same as Macedonians.

Macedonia did not have yet a flag at that time. 

And what do you exactly mean by the fillowing:

 >> "Macedonian" flag (that forgery of history which depicts the Macedonian sun - an
 >> ancient Macedonian symbol which people of the so-called "Republic of Macedonia"
 >> have nothing to do with), or any other official representation of "Macedonia".

I will repeat to you what I have said to Rizos Sakellariou. 

And what is exactly the history you stand behind? I would very
much like to know, and I hope other readers on the netwes, about your
opinion on the history of the Balkan. The reason is because I see that
there is difference in what I think about the problem and what you
think.


Sasa.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: lhermi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lotfi Hermi)
Subject: Talk about fairness
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 05:10:31 GMT

Just to be fair: Today the Serb Generals in and around Sarajevo were 
interviewed on ABC (Saturday). They said clearly and bluntly:" Do you like
and Islamic State in Europe, next door to a Chrisitian state?!" Hence for 
Serb extermist the goal is clear. Although the Muslim Democratic Party of 
Ali Ezzat Begovic is secular in Program but favored more freedom to the Muslim
citizens of the region, Serb fundamentalist nationalists try to justify their
explusion of thousands of their ex-neighbors. On ABC's prime time they said
that the hatred goes back to 5 centuries to the Kossovo battle and the Othoman
rule that is clear. So if you would like to quote quote the whole thing or 
leave it as is. Remember, may be two and a half years ago, Muslim Turks (about 
a million) were expelled from Bulgaria... Talk about fairness... to use the 
words of Jeune afrique magazine " There are also barbarians in Europe" not 
just in the Middle east or the Muslim World...

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Fascism Reawakens in Croatia, Charges Jewish Leader
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 00:33:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.201614.27851@cs.yale.edu> pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.144029.19002@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>
>>Mr. Pavlovic, you are charging at windmills.  Ustashe policy of genocide 
>>was criminal and Croats know it -- I have certainly said so many times.
>>But your posting's logic is that
>>
>>(WWII Ustashe) = (Croats in general in WWII) = (Croats in general today)
>>
>>which is blatantly false because
>>
>>(1) Croats had resisted Ustashe in WWII
>>(2) Croats today know what Ustashe did and reject it.
>
>Croats never apologized, and I doubt they ever will. What is even worse, there
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a LIE.  I challenge you to prove your statement, especially in
the light of the following -- based on one of SERBIAN publications:

On several occasions the Croatian ministers in the government-in-exile
publicly condemned the Ustasha crimes.  Vice-Premier Dr. Juraj Krnjevic,
speaking over the BBC on October 11, 1941, said:

  "In my first speech over the radio I castigated most decisively the
  crimes which are being perpetrated by the Ustashas on the innocent
  Serbs.  I said on that occasion, and I am saying it again to the
  whole world: the Croatian people have nothing in common with these
  crimes and they castigate these crimes most decisively.  Never in its
  whole history did the Croatian people use such means of policy.  These
  crimes are the works of a handful of individuals educated in Nazi
  Germany and Fascist Italy, who have come into Croatia on the heels of
  the German army."

Source: the "American Srbobran", October 23, 1941.


>Regards,
>Milan Pavlovic

Josip
From: mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: 31% Serbs take 70% of B.-H.
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:43:49 GMT
Organization: TIK, ETH Zuerich, Switzerland

In article <zoltan.28.714184967@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au>
zoltan@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au (Zoltan Schreter) writes:
>.... Stuff deleted ...
>
>>Any people would huddle together in times of great danger, be it Americans
>>or Serbs or any other nation, especially those that have been
>>in constant danger of extermination for centuries.
>>
>
>When this conflict started I had a strong understanding for the claims of 
>the Serbsin Croatia, especially after I read an interview with Tudjman in "
>Der Spiegel". 
>However, the situation in B.-H. seems to be very different to
>me. No "constant danger of extermination for centuries" can justify what
>the Serbs are doing there - "ethnically cleansing", that is, forcefully
>driving out any other nationality from 70% of B.-H.'s territory, provided 
>they are lucky enough to be offered the possibility of "voluntarily" giving
>up all their possessions.  
>This behaviour of the Serbs resulted in a curious fact: Their feeling
>that they have only enemies in the world is not a paranoid fear any more -
>they really managed to unite the western nations on the one hand and Iran
>on the other hand against them.

Please reply either to the topic or make a new posting.
I was talking about the effect of huddling together when in danger.
Nowhere was there anything about justification what is happenning in B&H.
I understand that you wanted to get it out of you, but it has no
relations to my posting (or the original I replied to).

>
>Zoltan
>

Srdjan
From: armagan@sassafras (Armagan Ozdinc)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: TURKEY VOLUNTEERS 1,000 TROOPS (THE GUARDIAN, 11 August 1992)
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:08:43 GMT
Reply-To: armagan@prc.unisys.com
Organization: Paramax Systems

*** Originally posted by Haluk DEMIRBAG in soc.culture.turkish ***

TURKEY VOLUNTEERS 1,000 TROOPS

Jonathan Rugman in Ankara

Turkey's  ambassador to  the  United Nations  has confirmed  that
Ankara is prepared to send around 1,000 men as part of a military
force in Bosnia-Herzegovina under UN auspices.

Speaking after consultations with  government officials here, the
ambassador, Mustafa Aksin, said a batallion of Turkish troops had
already been earmarked for the purpose.

Turkey,  the ruling  power in  Bosnia for  five centuries,  first
advocated military action  two months ago when  when it organised
an emergency  meeting of Islamic foreign  ministers. A resolution
passed  by  more than  40  countries  urged  the UN  to  consider
military intervention should sanctions against Serbia fail.

The foreign minister,  Hikmet Cetin, was due to  visit London and
New York  this week to rally  support for military action,  but a
senior official said yesterday that Turkey was now satisfied that
such a plan was already being seriously considered.

Last week Turkey sent special envoys to London, Viennna, Budapest
and  Moscow  to  discuss  the situation  in  Bosnia,  and  Ankara
presented ambassadors from  the five permanent members  of the UN
Security  Council with  a plan  of how  military action  might be
implemented.

It envisaged that Serbian forces would be given two weeks to stop
their ill-treatment of  detainees and hand over any  weapons in a
ceasefire.

If that  fails, a  limited air  strike against  Serbian positions
would take place, first in Bosnia and then if necessray in Serbia
itself.

According to one newspaper account quoting military sources, S-16
jets would take off from Albania,  Austria and Hungary as well as
from aircraft  carriers in the Adriatic.  The "precision bombing"
of 25 to 30 Serbian positions could take place in a single day.

Officials accept that securing  Sarajevo airport and stopping the
shelling might require a ground force several thousand strong but
say that is no excuse for inaction.  "If it has to be large, then
so be it," a senior Turkish diplomat said. "Even if the region is
turned into a safe haven tomorrow,  we still have a lot to answer
for."

Turkey  has accepted  between  15,000 and  20,000 Bosnian  Muslim
refugees  and  proposed  that  the UN  arms  embargo against  the
former Yugoslavia should exclude Bosnia.

"Islamic countries  are getting increasingly impatient  at what's
happening," said one diplomat, "but we don't want to promote this
as a religious war."

THE GUARDIAN, 11 August 1992


----------------------------------------------------------------
 ARMAGAN A. OZDINC
 Paramax Systems, Valley Forge Labs, Research and Development
________________________________________________________________
From: s924099@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Petar Kozul)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: HAS ANYONE GOT ANY BiH POPULATION GRAPHS???
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:45:37 GMT

Hi,
	I remember once seeing a graph showing the population (Croats, Muslims,
Serbs, and Yugoslavs) in each region of Bosna-Hercegovina. If there is anyone
out there who has this or something similar, could they forward it to me.

Thanks in advance.


Petar Kozul		s924099@yallara.cs.rmit.oz.au
From: nyu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Fascism Reawakens in Croatia, Charges
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:42:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: cmcl2.1992Aug19.184237.10187
Organization: New York University

Mr. Stojanovic, you really seem to be missing the point.
You can lay out all the bandwidth "evidence" you want of
fascists in Croatia. It won't change the simple basic
fact that the Serbs are stealing land in Bosnia-Herzegovina
and Croatia, and killing as many civilians as they can.
In Bosnia-Herzegovina, they are doing this because many
of the Bosnians are Muslim and the Ottoman Empire defeated the
Serbs in the 12th century.
In Croatia, they are doing it because of the Croatian fascists
of WWII.
Mr. Stojanovic, Sloban Milosevic, a nationalist fascist in his own
right, is not fighting in Croatia to protect the free world from
fascism. And he is not shelling Bosnia-Herzegovina to protect
Europe from the Muslim hordes. The Serbian aggression is payback
and a land-grab. All your multi-part transcriptions ignore these
little facts.
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Serbian threats
Date: 16 Aug 92 16:46:41 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Thomas Grant Edwards (tedwards@src.umd.edu) writes:
)Victor Wickerhauser (victor@jezebel.wustl.edu) writes:
))From ClariNet (8-Aug-92) we have the following:
))  The self-proclaimed government of
))  the Serbian ``state'' in Bosnia warned that foreign military
))  intervention in the war-wracked republic could prompt Serbian attacks on
))  European targets... including nuclear power plants.
)
)This self-proclaimed government must be stupid if they believe that
)they can attack European targets outside of former Yugoslavia, and
)remain non-vaporized.

Can you spell t-e-r-r-o-r-i-s-t? I knew you could.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
From: vkb57@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:34:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.161223.10724@wuecl.wustl.edu> jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.212149.28184@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>>Michael Polymenakos (michael.polymenakos@factory.com)  writes:

>To make it even clearer, greece did not refuse
>them the use of the word macedonia.  Inboth the proposals of the greek
>goverement, either calling it slavic macedonia, either naming a province
>only macedonia, we clearly did not object to the use of the word.

Could you check you records and clarify by whom and where were these proposals
made, as well as include a quote if possible?


>
>>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>James Dimarogonas
From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Fascism Reawakens in Croatia, Charges Jewish Leader
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:45:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: src.1992Aug20.024508.9443
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park

In article <1992Aug19.190556.14914@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>No, I just state that you are liar. I stick to that, until you 
>admit that you made a mistake in the case of Klara Mandic.
>You are nearer to me retracting this by admitting the van
>-chamber thing, but you should still retract that publicly.
>
>Milan

I dispute your claims regarding Klara Mandic.  "Proof by acquaintance"
among fellow Serbian chauvinists simply does not work.

Regarding the "Belgrade gas chamber" vs. "Belgrade gas vans", my memory
had played tricks on me.  But, I have corrected this, and in your
refusal to accept my corrections, you've made several incorrect statements
yourself (dare I say you are a liar?) which I'd like you to correct.

(1) Regarding prisoners being taken from Banjica to be shot:
YOU SAY:
>In Jajinci.  Again.  And in your last posting you claimed that 20-30.000
>people were killed in Banjica.  So check your math.
             ^^^^^^
INCORRECT. Here is what I said:

"Banjica", Historical Archives of Belgrade, Belgrade, 1967.

This book clearly shows that (1) Germans were not working alone, (2) that
Banjica was primarily staffed by Serbs, (3) that the concentration camp was
funded by Belgrade municipal budget, (4) that the camp chief was Svetozar
Vujkovic, a Serb.  Banjica camp processed over 23,000 people many of whom
were Jews and children.  Many people were shot not by Germans but by
Serbian guards.  The prisoner lists were kept in Serbian, in cyrillic script.


(2) Regarding Serbs doing something wrong in WWII:
YOU SAY:
>Mr. Simic and I are aware, but we are not going to allow you to be 
>able to claim and remain unchallenged that Serbs were same as Croats
>in WWII.  We did what we had to do, Croats did what they wanted to do.

INCORRECT.  I've never claimed this, in fact, I said precisely the opposite:

Mr. Simic wrote:
>>	This is not to say that quisling puppet government under Milan Nedic
>> did nothing wrong. His gendarmerie had to be involved to some degree in
>> assisting the Germans in rounding up the Jews. This is clear. Yet, if we
>> are discussing in good-faight here, we should not mix the leading order
>> history with the small, Nth order effects.
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>	This is the last I have to say on this question.
>
And I responded:
>Small?  N-th order?  Difference is clearly there, but to say that what
>happened in Serbia is "small" or in any sense negligible is completely wrong.
>
>My point in raising this issue is not to compare Serbian and Croatian
>role in the Holocaust, but to establish the fact that most Serbs have
>never faced this part of their history.  Failure to do so is clearly
>demonstrated by your statements.

Please be accurate the next time.

Josip
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian