From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Slaves to Jesus was Defining the kingdom of God
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:56:19 GMT

In article <12094@scott.ed.ac.uk>, iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
> In article <1992Dec15.010332.13746@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson) writes:
> >In article <12007@boyd.ed.ac.uk>, iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
> 
> >> Whenever I go hillwalking, I accept the fact that I will become hungry
> >> and tired.
> >
> >You're a pretty brave guy there Ivan!
> 
> No, I'm not.  I'm not much of a hillwalker, anyway.  You said that no
> one would accept any inconvenience if he can avoid it.  I am arguing
> against that.

I think I said more meaning than that. _Any_ inconvenience is not
the same as a _terrible_ inconvenience which J suffered for his
people.

> 
> >Well, the word tells us he made his state lower for the sake of
> >us which would indicate to me that(in the flesh)he felt the same
> >things everyone else felt, however, he was on a mission.
> 
> And he knew that this mission would end soon, no matter what happened,
> and he would occupy his top place, never to leave it again.  This is
> what made it impossible for him to feel what everyone else felt.  He

As in the same thread with Ken A. He felt it _all_ on the cross,
but I agree he didn't feel what it was like to be _fully_ human
before that in the sense of final death or original sin.
And here I get into a sticky part, yes he felt final death. He 
trusted his better half to raise him up(imo)without fully knowing
if that would indeed happen. He in some ways felt totaly forsaken
on that cross.

> was unable to experience what it feels like to be hated and ridiculed
> in the only life one will ever have.  He was unable to experience what

Some people, including myself don't feel that this is the only
life that we will ever have. I don't think your statement counts.

[short trip to the desert deleted but noted]
> 
> >I'm sure
> >he didn't sit in the woods at night and cry about being ridiculed,
> >but he _did_ subject himself to it by incarnating. Big deal(iyo),
> >I wouldn't expect anything different or you wouldn't be a non-believer.
> 
> But you're doing an awfully poor job of clarifying why yo is so
> different from mo.  I know I hate being ridiculed, but that is only

Well about as good as you were doing in clarifying the 'adverse:-)?
Really Ivan(can I call you Ivan?)who can clarify themselves in
one or two posts?

> because I care for what happens to me in this life, which in turn is
> because it is the only life I have.  This was not the case with Jesus,

Nor me.

> so I fail to understand why being ridiculed mattered to him.  I might
> as well dive in the bathtub for a few seconds to see what drowning is
> all about.

It's a poor point for us to focus on, no big deal.
I brought it up to show a point, we can drop that one now.
> 
> >Of course you would believe that [there was no sacrifice at all],
> 
> I don't _believe_ so.  I _think_ so.  I have a definition of
> sacrifice, which involves permanent substantial loss.  No permanent
> substantial loss, no sacrifice.  No question of believing, just reasoning.

It was a substantial effort so I could have eternal life, without
the effort, no eternal life. I sound selfish; If I was the only one
on earth, he would have still done the job.
> 
> >so what else is new?
> 
> What is new is that I can't get it to you that it is impossible to
> temporarily assume a ro^le and still claim to fully experience what it
> feels to be in that ro^le for your entire existence.  It is ridiculous
> for a bank manager to take a month off work in order to experience
> what it is like to be unemployed.

Well, I should have clarified earlier that he did most assuredly
experience the _full_ weight of humanity on the cross. Some would
say for _all_ who ever lived and will live. that's quite a weight.
Then he said, follow me for my yoke is easy to bear.

barry--

I'll be gone for a few days--
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism