HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: naran@fraser.sfu.ca (Travers Naran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: Was Watson a cannibal
Date: 26 Sep 92 17:52:42 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

roberts@studguppy.lanl.gov (Doug Roberts) writes:
>In article <80344@ut-emx.uucp> oo7@ut-emx.uucp (Derek Wills) writes:

>> Not only was Watson homosexual if you believe recent postings (e.g.
>> mine) but he practised cannibalism.  Near the start of Blue Peter
>> (nudge, nudge - no, it's the name of a sea captain) he says "Mrs
>> Hudson's kidneys are always delicious".  Well, I mean, what what?

>Now that you mention it, Watson did seem unnecessarily fond of
>"organ" foods. 

In actuality, I found he had quite a 'passion' for cadavaers now that you
mention it. Organy foods, bloody murders. It makes one wonder if 
"He liked his meat cold." :-)

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran						| "We fear
Mail address: naran@fraser.sfu.ca or naran@sfu.ca       |  change. WHACK!
Simon Fraser University, British Columbia, Canada	| WHACK! WHACK!"
Cmpt. Science student wanna-be				| -Garth 
Trekker, Leaper, Red Dwarf'er, Prober, etc.		|  "Wayne's World"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (Charles Lavazzi)
Subject: Re: Movie: "The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes"
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 18:58:04 GMT

In article <fTsccdb@quack.sac.ca.us> mrapple@quack.sac.ca.us (Nick Sayer) writes:
>KQED aired this firm this evening. I wonder if anyone else
>shares my opinion of this film.
>
>I found this film to be disgusting work with rude charicatures
>of the original characters of Sir Conan-Doyle. Watson was
>a loud, arrogant buffoon, Mycroft an argumentative and energetic
>sort of spymaster or something and worse yet is the outright silly
>thought that the Diogenes club could be some sort of private branch
>of the Foreign office hanging out in Loch Ness. Oh, it is just too much.
>The out-and-out worst Holmes move I've ever seen.
>
	I don't share the intensity of your feelings, although I will admit
the film is badly flawed.  In fairness to Billy Wilder (the director), the
original version ran 3 and 1/2 hours (as opposed to the final 2 hours) and
likely contained a lot more scenes fleshing out and improving the characters.
You can get some hints of this from the "novelization" of the screenplay by
British Sherlockians Michael and Mollie Hardwicke (which may or may not still
be in print).

>Perhaps I simply expect too much after seeing Jeremey Brett.
>
	IMHO, Holmes has been served badly by film translations much more often
than not, so your diappointment is understandable.

[...]
>
>-- 
>Nick Sayer <mrapple@quack.sac.ca.us> | "Help! I'm a bug"
>N6QQQ @ N0ARY.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM     | "<poof> You're a feature"
>37 19 49 N / 121 57 36 W             | 
>+1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'   |       -- The USENET Oracle

Chuck
No .sig, no frills, no foolin'


Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: rao@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Govindaraju Rao)
Subject: Re: The Man With the Twisted Lip.
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 20:27:57 GMT

Larisa Stephan writes:
>Other posters have commented on the time lapse between Mrs. St. Claire's departure
>and re-arrival at the Lascar's, relative to the time required for Neville to become
>Boone (sp?):

>> But given twenty minutes, at the very least you would have
>>enough time to clean up the mess, grab your clothes and your money and slip out
>>the back door.

>I disagree.  Have you ever tried to put on a full face of makeup, especially
>prosthetic makeup as he used?  I'm surprised he could effect the transformation at
>all in that short span.

This is something that has always confounded me. My experience in 
theatre suggests that make-up, particularly with a view to creating
an altogether different personality is time consuming. Further, 
regardless of the effectiveness of the make-up people who are 
familiar with the actor ALWAYS recognise the person behind the
make-up. This would imply that Mrs. St. Claire would/could/should 
have recognised Boone as her husband Neville. 
  
It may be argued, that she was too distraught and frightened by Lascar's
attempts at preventing her ascent up the stairs to be in a state 
capable of recognising Neville. Also, perhaps, Neville was careful
to keep his face averted from her direct line-of-sight. (I do 
not remember if the story makes this point.)
  
Was ACD given to exaggeration ?? I think so. 
 
Consider, for instance, Holmes' ability to infer the route Watson
had taken, by visually analysing the soil that had adhered to his
(Watson's) shoes. The exact phrasing escapes me but at one point
Holmes asserts that a particular spot had been dug up and the soil
on the shoes was characteristic of the exhumed soil.
 
Question: Is it really possible to see from a distance of at least
          six feet (if not more) the different types of soil ??
  
Question: Would Watson, given his tendency to neatness, walk in a
          manner that would soil his soles to such an extent as 
          to take home a "significant sample" ??

THE SEQUEL COMING SOON TO A TERMINAL NEAR YOU: Is it really possible
  to identify the type of cigar/cigarette by a visual analysis of
  the ash ???
  
G.S.K. Rao <rao@ccm.umanitoba.ca>, <rao@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
From: Chuck.Lavazzi@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Chuck Lavazzi)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: "Holmes" character a ripoff?
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:13:35 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <1992Oct5.130715.13956@bnlux1.bnl.gov> schroede@bnlux1.bnl.gov (gary l. schroeder) writes:
>I was reading "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" by Edgar Allen Poe over
>the weekend, and it rather surprised me.  Mostly because it instilled in
>me the idea that perhaps Doyle plagurized the idea of the Holmes
>character from Poe's character of "Dupin".
>
>For those of you not familiar with the short story, "Morgue" is set in
>the first half of the 19th century in Paris.  The story begins with the
>storyteller's description of the methods of deduction, and then a
>description of his friend Dupin's amazing power of deduction (after a 15
>min. lull in a conversation between the two, Dupin is able to deduce
>what his friend is thinking merely by constructing a chain of thought
>according to things that they have passed while walking down the
>street).
>
	In fact, Holmes himself refers to it (can't recall which story
offhand) following a more subtle demonstration of deductive "mind-reading"
in which he reconstructs Watson's train of thought by observing the objects
Watson looks at and his reactions to them.  Watson compares this to the
Poe example you cited, and Holmes dismisses Dupin as incompetent because it
took him so long to make "obvious" deductions! >:-)>  It's actually a rather
slyly humorous bit on Doyle's part, IMHO.
	Seriously, Poe's Dupin was probably one of the sources upon which
Doyle drew for the character of Holmes.  Another was Dr. Joseph Bell, one of
Doyle's instructors in medical school, who would often amaze students with
his deductions about the lives and habits of patients.
[...]
>
>
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gary L. Schroeder  		|  
>schroede@bnlux1.bnl.gov         |             Boo. 
>Brookhaven National Laboratory  | 


Chuck
No .sig, no frills, no foolin'

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: msl@hpcvusc (Mark Laventhal )
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: "Holmes" character a ripoff?
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:22:19 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

There is a reference to Dupin in the first Sherlock Holmes story, "A Study 
in Scarlet".  After being impressed with his first exposure to Holmes' 
deductive powers, Watson makes the comparison of Holmes to Dupin, intending
it as a complement to Holmes.  I forget Holmes' exact reply (and I don't have a 
copy handy), but it is something to the effect that Dupin's habit of breaking
into a person's thoughts after 15 minutes of silence is pretty showy and
superficial, that Dupin did have some deductive abilities, but that overall
he was overrated.

Mark Laventhal
msl@cv.hp.com
From: weltyc@porsche.cs.rpi.edu (Chris Welty)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: Faulty deduction...
Date: 30 Sep 92 14:56:17 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: RPI Computer Science Dept.

In article <1992Sep19.214206.5504@nntp.uoregon.edu> eric_gorr@coglab_psych.uoregon.edu (eric gorr) writes:


   I just receinly read a short story (of which I am blankin on the name) in
   which holmes judged a man to be highly intelligent because he had a large
   hat size.  Today, we know this to be false.

   Are there any other similiar instances?  I am just curious...

I read the books before the Brett series, which changed canon wrt
Moriarty in a few cases in order to develop a story line.

In the scene where they meet for the first time, which I do recall
from the stories, Moriarty look at Holmes and says, "I expected more
frontal development."  Referring to the size of Holmes' forehead.
--

Christopher Welty                   Asst. Director, RPI CS Labs, Troy, NY 12180
weltyc@cs.rpi.edu                  "Porsche:  Fahren in seiner schoensten Form"
From: larisa@tcville.edsg.hac.com (Larisa Stephan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: The Man With the Twisted Lip.
Date: 2 Oct 92 22:15:01 GMT
Reply-To: larisa@tcville.edsg.hac.com
Followup-To: alt.fan.holmes
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co. EOS, El Segundo, CA

Other posters have commented on the time lapse between Mrs. St. Claire's departure
and re-arrival at the Lascar's, relative to the time required for Neville to become
Boone (sp?):
> But given twenty minutes, at the very least you would have
>enough time to clean up the mess, grab your clothes and your money and slip out
>the back door.

I disagree.  Have you ever tried to put on a full face of makeup, especially
prosthetic makeup as he used?  I'm surprised he could effect the transformation at
all in that short span.

-- Larisa
larisa@tcville.edsg.hac.com
From: Chuck.Lavazzi@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Chuck Lavazzi)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: The Man With the Twisted Lip.
Date: 30 Sep 92 14:16:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <29SEP199222470889@moose.cccs.umn.edu> rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu writes:
[...]
>
>The good book says "...[Mrs. St.Claire] rushed down the lane, and, by rare good
>fortune, met, in Fresno Street, a number of constables with an inspector, all
>on their way to their beat."  That sounds like only a minute or two, which is
>very credible.  But given twenty minutes, at the very least you would have
>enough time to clean up the mess, grab your clothes and your money and slip out
>the back door.
>
	Interesting.  I've seen the episode but never noticed the discrepancy.
I'm also rather surprised that the adapter put this in since it's clearly not
in the Canon.  You are, of course, quite correct since Holmes later removes
St. Claire's makeup in a matter of minutes with a damp sponge.
>I don't mind Granada Television taking liberties with the superficial details
>(there are to.  ..o many examples in this episode to count), but I do with they
>wouldn't screw with the logic in such a major way! :-(
>
	Agreed.  Fortunately, they're not the only game in town as far as
film adaptatios of the Canon goes, only the most recent.
	Glad to see someone posting here again.  I was afraid the recent
glut of goofy posts on the order of "was Watson a cannibal" might have
killed the group before it even got off the ground.
	How about some uploaded Sherlockian papers?  I'll kick it off (as
soon as I can remember to do so...) with a couple I've written recently on
the relationship between Sherlockian deduction and the Gestalt psychology
concept of "closure" and some thoughts on "Hound".  We might even make this
a sort of Sherlockian magazine of the air.  >:-)>

>-- Rao Akella    <rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu, rao%moose@umnacvx.bitnet>

Chuck
No .sig, no frills, no foolin'


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney)
Subject: Re: Was Watson a cannibal
Keywords: worse and worse
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 20:05:07 GMT

In article <80344@ut-emx.uucp> oo7@ut-emx.uucp (Derek Wills) writes:
>Not only was Watson homosexual if you believe recent postings (e.g.
>mine) but he practised cannibalism.  Near the start of Blue Peter
>(nudge, nudge - no, it's the name of a sea captain) he says "Mrs
>Hudson's kidneys are always delicious".  Well, I mean, what what?

Ah, but this reveals MORE!
Even though Watson wasn't as smart as Holmes, he probably was enough of 
a scientist to realize that 4 (two wives, two kidneys each) isn't a large
enough sample size.
Ergo, he probably was a matricide (1 more Mrs. Watson, 2 more kidneys).
Or he married even more often than he mentions in the chronicles.  Holmes
must have recognized this, but never said anything.  Ergo, he was a
knowing accomplice.  And thus a villain.  And thus a master villain.  And who
is consistently refered to as the master villain?  Moriarty, of course.
Therefore, Holmes and Watson together make Moriarty.

After all, SHERLOCK HOLMES
MOR(I and A left out, because they're the I am bit) R (T from Watson) Y
or maybe this doesn't work out.
Too much literary criticism, Ann.
Get back into the straightjacket.

 >
>Derek Wills 
>Department of Astronomy, University of Texas, 
>Austin TX 78712.  (512-471-1392)
>oo7@astro.as.utexas.edu 
>oo7@emx.utexas.edu


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes,rec.games.frp.misc
From: braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER)
Subject: Re: Was Watson Jack the Ripper?
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:07:59 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>Why not Holmes as the Ripper instead? He would have easily mastered
>dissection and moreover was a master of disguise which would account for
>the way the Ripper escaped without a trace from the police; Watson would
>never have managed that.


And a perfect explanation (either way) for Holmes' Opium addiction!


>Try Dibdin's The Last Sherlock Holmes Story for a superb (IMHO) novel
>which expounds this theory.

never read it sorry.


|-|()()|<

Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (Charles Lavazzi)
Subject: Re: As Promised: a Sherlockian paper
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 19:10:34 GMT

In article <BvLEC0.3xx@agora.rain.com> trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
>
>
>All in all, this is an intersting paper, but it suffers badly from a lack of
>knowledge of the conditions in English cities in Sherlock's time.
>
>Almost all heating in London and other such metropolises was by burning coal,
>and the so-called London Fog was so full of sulpher fumes from those who could
>not afford the best coal that it was quite common for an air inversion to
>create what was called a "killer fog" and a fairly large number of invalids
>and old ladies to die from it, even if they never left their homes! The English
>have done a good deal to clean up London in the last couple of generations,
>and I don't think we apreciate just how bad conditions really were before
>electricity and heat from steam boilers was common. I have walked in the
>evenings in rural Scotland and Ireland, and even in small towns the stench of
>coal or (even worse) peat burning on the hearth takes quite a bit of getting
>used to, and yet almost no-one burns wood. (Too expensive unless you own your
>own woodlot...most of the area was logged off centuries ago.)
>
	If I'm interpreting this correctly, your point is that air quality in
Holmes-era Britain was uniformly lousy, and that the country would have been
no better than the city.  True as this may be, there's no getting around the
fact that the Canon is filled with passages indicating as association of 
"country air" and health.  We're talking about perceptions here, not objective
reality. >:-)>
	There's also the fact that the original paper was written somewhat
tongue in cheek.  I never  intended it to be a historical treatise on air
quality in turn of the century Britain!  The Grand Game is a *game* after all,
and it doesn't do (IMO) to take it *to* seriously.

[....]
>
>Suze
>
>trifid@agora.rain.com
>
Chuck
No .sig, no frills, no foolin'
From: weltyc@porsche.cs.rpi.edu (Chris Welty)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: As Promised: a Sherlockian paper
Date: 2 Oct 92 19:18:58 GMT
Organization: RPI Computer Science Dept.


OK, I'll bite.

I recall, and I suppose I shall have to cite the reference eventually,
Holmes remarking to Watson during a train ride through the country
something to this effect:

"To you it may seem like a quiet, peaceful countryside.  But to me, I
must see all the opportunities a criminal has in the country."

Additionally, any quote regarding that someone's complexion gives away
the fact that they live in the country may not be a compliment.  In
those times pale skin was considered attractive, and women of the
aristocracy spent little time outdoors, and when they were it was with
a large hat or an umbrella to protect their skin from the sun.

Stir stir stir.

--

Christopher Welty                   Asst. Director, RPI CS Labs, Troy, NY 12180
weltyc@cs.rpi.edu                  "Porsche:  Fahren in seiner schoensten Form"
From: pfeiffer@nmsu.edu (Joe Pfeiffer)
Subject: Re: Was Watson Jack the Ripper?
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1992Sep26.173500.28984@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:14:52 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.173500.28984@samba.oit.unc.edu> Chuck.Lavazzi@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Chuck Lavazzi) writes:


   >	5. Watson was a nice guy and would never have done the murders
   >	in his right mind.
   >
	   Irrelevant, since it assumes that Watson is guilty.  Logically, you
   cannot present as proof of an assertion an argument that presumes the truth
   of said assertion.
   [game description deleted]
	   As I say, this is all somewhat tangential, but it does demonstrate
   how easy it is to misunderstand and misuse logical argument.

Not quite -- this isn't part of the argument that Watson was the
Ripper (as I read it, anyway).  This is the argument -- given that you
accept the preceding four points as showing Watson was the Ripper --
that he must have been under the influence of the Jekyll/Hyde serum.

-Joe.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: Chuck.Lavazzi@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Chuck Lavazzi)
Subject: Re: London Fog in Holmes' Time
Keywords: coal, sulpher, fog, country air
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:04:25 GMT

In article <Bvn1xG.J4n@agora.rain.com> trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
>
>No Chuck, I guess I shouldn't have digressed into my own experiences so much.
>
	No problem; it was actually rather interesting.

[...]
>
>I hear you can't really experience a true London "Pea-Souper" in this
>modern era of concern about pollution, because the air doesn't have a ghastly
>greenish-yellow color during the more natural fogs of today, as it did in 
>Holmes' day. Remember, Doyle was a doctor. He must have treated patients who
>had good reason to fear "city air".
>
>But don't take my word for it. This is a pretty well-known example of how bad
>air pollution can become, and I've read about it in any number of articles on
>the subject.
>
	Actually, we can also take Watson's word for it.  The Canon has several
descriptions of a geniune turn-of-the-century industrial fog.  They don't
sound very appealing...
>Suze

Chuck
No .sig, no frills, no foolin'



--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao V. Akella)
Subject: Re: The Man With the Twisted Lip.
Followup-To: alt.fan.holmes
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Reply-To: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu
Organization: Colon Cancer Control Study, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis
X-Lunar-Date: 5 days, 1 hr, 1 min until the full moon (U.T.)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 22:34:00 GMT

In article <23524@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>, larisa@tcville.edsg.hac.com writes:
> Other posters have commented on the time lapse between Mrs. St. Claire's
> departure and re-arrival at the Lascar's, relative to the time required for
> Neville to become Boone (sp?):
>
> > But given twenty minutes, at the very least you would have
> > enough time to clean up the mess, grab your clothes and your money and
> > slip out the back door.
>
> I disagree.  Have you ever tried to put on a full face of makeup, especially
> prosthetic makeup as he used?  I'm surprised he could effect the
> transformation at all in that short span.

My point was not about how long it takes to disguise oneself.  Given 20
minutes, I wouldn't sit around disguising myself -- I would be making a fast
getaway back to home before the wife returns with help.  The whole story hinges
on the fact that Neville St.Claire doesn't have enough time to escape before
his wife returns with the constables, so he has to don his disguise once more
to escape detection.  If he had 20 minutes of free time, why on earth would he
even stick around?

-- Rao Akella    <rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu, rao%moose@umnacvx.bitnet>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson)
Subject: Re: "Holmes" character a ripoff?
Organization: Home for Indigent Bit-Bashers
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:01:53 GMT

In article <Bvo6A9.Hst@ecf.toronto.edu> hora@ecf.toronto.edu (HO ROBERT ANDREW) writes:
>
>From _A Study in Scarlet_ :
>
>  Sherlock Holmes rose and lighted his pipe.
>  "No doubt you think that you are complimenting me in comparing me to Dupin,"
>he observed.  "Now, in my opinion, Dupin was a very inferior fellow.  That
>trick of his of breaking in on his friends' thoughts with an apropos remark
>after a quarter hour's silence is really very showy and superficial.  He
>had some analytical genius, no doubt; but he was by no means such a 
>phenomenon as Poe appeared to imagine."

Maybe this was Doyle's way of saying "You liked Poe's 'Dupin'?  Well you ain't
seen nuttin' yet...." :-)



-- 
==Steve Watson: watson@sce.carleton.ca===Carleton University, Ottawa, Ontario==
| The above is the output of a 7th-order Markovian analysis of all posts on   |
| this group for the past month.  Not only is it not Carleton's opinion, it's |
| not even *my* opinion: it's really just a mish-mash of all YOUR opinions!   |
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes