From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Free Will / Evil / Creation
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:27:32 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <9j-nw3g.gordons@netcom.com> gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>From: gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga)
>Subject: Re: Free Will / Evil / Creation
>Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 10:10:57 GMT

>In article <lharris.2@upei.ca> lharris@upei.ca (Lora Harris) writes:
>>Please pardon me for joining the discussion.  I noticed the following 
>>remarks, portions of longer posts, and decided to add my understanding 
>>of the traditional/orthodox position of Christianity on creation and free 
>>will
>>
>>.>gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>>>><adams.713105930@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>
>>>>God, in order to gain this, had to allow for the possibility of evil.
>>>"had to"?  You mean an omnipotent being was incapable of creating free
>>>will without evil?
>>
>>     Yes, had to.  No amount of omnipotence allows a being to create a 
>>logical impossibility.  For instance, the old saw about "can god create 
>>something so heavy that he can't lift it?"  The answer is no.  If there is 
>>no limit to the ability to lift, then nothing can be created that is beyond 
>>that non-existant limit.

>No personal offense intended, but I find your argument laughable.  Either
>he's a god (with all the powers that go with it), or he is subject to the
>same rules and laws that you and I are, in which case I have to ask: Hwo
>made the rules that god has to obey?

>>     Likewise, you cannot give a being free will (the ability to choose good 
>>or evil)*without* allowing the possibility to choose evil.  If there is no 
>>possibility of evil, then the being does not have the ability to choose it, 
>>and hence, no free will.  Eventually, given free will, someone will choose 
>>evil.

>I have no problem with that concept.  It's the punishment for choosing
>evil that I object to.  You put sweet candy in front of a child and tell
>them not to touch it or they will be killed.  Now, why would you do that?

>>     On the other hand...
>>>>One of the unavoidable aspects of creation was evil.  
>>>This doesn't jive with the concept of a truly omnipotent being.  Nothing
>>>should be unavoidable for him.
>>
>>     Here you are right - mostly.  Evil was not an unavoidable aspect of 
>>creation. God is perfectly capable of creating a universe without it, as 
>>long as that universe does not include free will.  I agree with Steve;\'s 
>>comment that God cannot create another God, but He can create beings perfect 
>>in what they are.

>A true god can create *anything* he wants to create.  If he didn't want
>pain and suffering of "his children" he wouldn't have arranged it so.

>>     However, the reason I said "mostly" is like this -
>>          1. God is perfect good

>Can you have evil from perfect good?

>>          2. What He creates must therefore be the greatest good

>He created Satan.

>>          3. Beings who follow good of their free will have more goodness 
>>               than automatons          

>I fail to see your logic.

>>Therefore, God must have created this universe with beings with free 
>>will.     
>>
>>(Assuming 1 for the sake of the argument.  By 2. I mean that God is not 
>>only good, but perfect good, and never can choose a lesser good over a 
>>greater - again assuming for the moment the Christian view for the sake of 
>>argument.  I am pretty sure about 3, intuitively if not logically at the 
>>moment.  We all recognize that in human terms, someone who does something 
>>good freely is better than one who does the same under duress or 
>>accidentally.)

>We do?  Well, I can concede that it may seem like that a lot. But I doubt
>that it can be considered an axiom.

>>     Given this line of reasoning, I am tolerably sure ( not certain ) that 
>>God could not have created a universe without free-willed beings, and hence 
>>without evil.


>I'll have to think about this some. You have some "interesting"
>perspectives.

>Gordon
>-- 
>The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
>of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
>Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.

I hate to break in on this discussion of God, freedom, and evil, but it 
happens to be my specialty and I can't resist.  It commonly agreed, by 
theologians and atheologians alike, that a being's "inability" to do 
"tasks" whose descriptions are self-contradictorys is no real inability.  My 
inability to draw a triangle on the exam may indicate my lack of geometrical 
skill, but my inability to draw a square triangle does not indicate any 
such lack. The problem of the paradoxical stone too heavy for an omnipotent 
being to lift is susceptible of a similar analysis--the task it proposes 
cannot be coherently described, which leaves the traditional doctrine of 
divine omnipotence pretty much intact.

However, it is possible to dispute whether such-and-such a thing or state of 
affairs is logically impossible.  Such disputes are the stock in trade of 
philosophers.  And there is much dispute over whether God can create free 
agents who nevertheless always choose the good.  If "create free agents who 
always choose rightly" does not incorporate some kind of logical mistake, 
then it follows that God should have created such agents.  But he obviously 
has not.

ARGUMENT FOR "GOD COULD HAVE CREATED FREE AGENTS WHO ALWAYS CHOOSE THE GOOD"

	1. Free agents sometimes choose the good.
	2. So if its logically possible for agents to freely 
	   choose the good on one or several ocassions,
 	3. Then, it is logically possible for agents freely to 
	   choose the good on every ocassion. 

But if 3 is true, God was not then faced with the alternative: create 
mindless but perfectly ethical automata (no moral evil in the universe) OR 
create ethically responsible and free persons who cannot be prevented from 
bringing about evil.  
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