HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Clinton & Gore
Date: 3 Sep 92 04:01:35 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>One of the core disputes in the SBC now is whether the central organization
>should have "control" or dictate to the member congregations or individuals.

"individuals"?  That's a scary prospect.  If you left off the name of
the organization, one might think a cult was being talked about.
And people are worried about candidate's wives acting as co-president,
when their church might coopt that role...  (I seem to recall it said
that some voters feared Kennedy would be a pawn of RC church)
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    "Only Nixon could go to China"  -- Vulcan proverb

[I don't think they're quite proposing brain-washing.  The issues tend
to be over control of seminaries, and church discipline.  While I'm not
pleased with most of the actions of the new leadership, it's far from
the sort of control that is normally taken to mark a cult.  --clh]
From: julian@sfu.ca (Julian Shillcock)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Inerrancy _ Jere 36
Date: 24 Aug 92 00:14:58 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

Hi,
I just came across this group while browsing and it looked interesting.
I have to admit to having a problem with the concept of inerrancy and
have had many discussions on the subject with christians who are more
conservative than I am. At the risk of boring people I 'd like to clear up
some points.
The definition I have heard is that the original Hebrew and Greek
texts were infallible and inerrant. So presumably when the authors
wrote the words down on paper the Holy Spirit was inspiring them
to write those exact words.
Given that we have copies of copies, etc and not the original
manuscripts this would seem to preclude a word for word infallibility
for the version we have. The usual response to this is the copies
we have are very accurate and quite clear enough to convey the original
message. I agree whole heartedly BUT the differences in world view,
understanding of history and purpose of writing between the 
OT (and probably NT) writers is (it seems to me) much greater than
any supposed discrepancies between the original text and our copies.
Imagine talking to Moses and trying to understand what he was saying.
We would have to work for years to understand each other (anyone see
Dances with Wolves? The inteaction between Costner and the two
Indians?).
Also, I am unhappy to say that the conservative christians I have talked
mosst to did not even know the accuracy of the statements they "claimed"
were infallible. They happily misquoted parts of scripture in the
sublime belief that they "knew" what they meant. It is one thing
to have a "child-like" faith, but I do not think God expects to
act childishly with our knowledge. Whatever inerrancy and infallibility
do mean it does not make interpretation of scripture any easier,
I believe. It cannot be used as a shortcut to understanding.
Which brings me to the last point: GOd gives us the scriptures
to "make us wise unto salvation": given that wisdom in the Bible
means knowledge of what pleases God, and this presupposes we can
work that out, we are expected to use our intelligence to interpret
scripture. (I do not like the argument that where reason and the Bible
conflict, reason must disappear, if we do not use reason we cannot 
learn anything from the Bible or any where else.). Somewhere in the
Bible it says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling",
this suggest to me a process of understanding arrived at through
thought and prayer and living.
So I would be interested if any conservative thinkers could explain
their understanding of infallibility and/or inerrancy in terms of
how it affects a christian's understanding of the Bible.
I look forward to it,
julian
From: jmanghan@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (I am G!)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: advice wanted
Date: 28 Aug 92 05:41:36 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

I am writing this post to apologize for what several readers have
told me via email that my posting may have been harsh.  I do not
apologize for the intent, which was to show the fallacy behind
disobeying God's command to keep our bodies pure from sexual
immorality, but I apologize for the way it came across...as
unloving.  

Also, I wanna clarify somethings....my mail name with (I am G!) is
just that...people call me Jee around here, but it would not fit if
I spelled it out Jee, so I typed G...so those who feel it is
blasphemy, as it has been brought up, don't worry...God knows my
heart! :)
Also, I have been told that my quotation from Def Leppard has sexual
implications that I was not aware of.  I thought 'rocked' meant to
play rock music.  I guess I was wrong.  And I will delete it from my
.sig file.

Laters!
JeeMan

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.  And surely I
am with you always, to the very end of the age."  --Matt. 28:18-20
-- 
JeeMan

"Do you want to get rocked???" --Def Leppard
From: jonh@david.wheaton.edu (Jonathan Hayward)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Ministries
Date: 30 Aug 92 07:05:30 GMT
Organization: Wheaton College, IL

I have seen in this group a great many reproves and corrections - as a matter
of fact, I would dare to say that they comprise a majority of the material.

Rebukes are life giving, and rejecting falsehood is every bit as important as
embracing truth.  However, there has been a little too little of the latter -
and I would benefit (and in this regard I think I speak for many others) in
seeing more posts that exist, not primarily for the facet called rejecting
falsehood, but for the facet called embracing truth.

Please share with the rest of us ministries that God has given you.  By
ministry I mean opportunities to serve other people, and through that service
to learn something new about God.

To start it off, I'll share a few ministries that I have been given:
	Technical skill.  I have enough technical skill in many areas to often
		find myself a mentor, and often that means two opportunities:
		the first of helping with whatever technical difficulty a
		person is having, the second of performing that assistance in a
		manner that says "To me, you are a person.  In Christ I love
		you."
	Artistic vision.  When I see an image or a form in my mind, I learn
		something new about God.  When I put it down in solid form, so
		do others.
	Just being there, and being able to listen or give a hug.  Many times,
		great opportunities are there to the one who will simply open
		his or her eyes, and take the courage to speak up in a
		situation where it would be much easier to walk off and forget
		it.  When I do not do so, I act as a living incarnation of
		Christ, and (this is the mark of Christian service) by what I
		do bless others and receive blessing myself.

May God bless you as you read this post and meditate upon it.

################################################################################
# "God, give me mountains # "But the greatest   # Jonathan Hayward             #
# to climb and the        # of these is love."  # Jonathan_Hayward@wheaton.edu #
# strength for climbing." # I Corinthians 13:13 # jhayward@imsa.edu            #
################################################################################
From: baresson@cbnewsi.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Food Laws (Was - Re: Mark 7)
Date: 28 Aug 92 04:57:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <Aug.27.02.56.02.1992.2404@athos.rutgers.edu> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>The point of the gospel passages was to say "the heart of man is the
>problem" and the point of Peter's vision was to say "go to the Gentiles,"
>those people who are unclean.  However, the food issue was also part
>of the teaching.
>
On the food issue, Jesus freed us from any restrictions that
were imposed under OT law. However, there are still foods that
we would regard as rather unpalatable. I would argue that the
for example Deut 14 prohibitions would still make sense (would
you eat a vulture?) as a rule - although if one were starving
there is no condemnation for violation of the forbidden foods.

"None of these Diseases" by Dr Macmillian traces through OT laws 
and ordinances and shows how their application in  
recent centuries has resulted in social and
personal improvement. For example sterile conditions in modern 
hospitals, basic hygiene and sewage can be traced back to Biblical 
injunctions. 

(If anyone wants further info on this please get a copy - or
send me email). Especially medics might be interested.

Barney Resson
"Many shall run to and fro, & knowledge shall increase" (Daniel)
From: conan@durban.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christian "Scout" programs
Date: 26 Aug 92 06:16:23 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

I am not aware of distinct Christian scout programs.  I did,
however, belong to a boy scout troop organized by my Catholic parish,
and being Catholic was part of our identity:  we had an annual mass,
appointed a troop chaplin, closed our meetings with a prayer,
and collectively studied for the Catholic religious medal. (This
medal was not unique--my handbook at the time listed several for
major Protestant denominations and I believe a Jewish one as well.)

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
From: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: The Syrian/Byzantine Text and the Johannean Comma [was: 1 John 5: 6-8]
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:14:03 GMT


 * Moved from SOC.RELIGION.CHRISTIAN (Usenet Xtian) by Steve Hayes

On <21 Aug 1992 21:03> Nichael Cramer (5:7104/2) said to All :

 NC>>  The Alexandrian manuscripts are from the shores
 NC>>  of North Africa, Greek was a secondary dialectical language there. 
 NC>
 NC>Alexandrian was the second city (after Rome) in the Western 
 NC>World.  It was
 NC>the major center of Hellenistic learning.  Hellenistic Greek 
 NC>was a (if not
 NC>the) primary language of all peoples of the entire eastern Meditranean
 NC>region during this time.

While I would not dispute that Alexandria was an important centre of Greek 
learning, by the fourth century, if not earlier, Greek-speaking Christians 
were in the minority there. By the end of the third century the scriptures 
had been translated into three vernacular (Coptic) languages. Many of the 
leaders were from the native rather than the Hellenistic population. The 
monastic movement was a native African one, and people like St Anthony had to 
have an interpreter because they could not speak Greek. St Athanasius was 
bilingual, but Coptic was almost certainly his native language, and he may 
well have been the first black theologian we know about.

 NC>>  ... In
 NC>>  fact, many of the Alexandrian texts are translations from Koine to 
 NC>>  regional Greek.  [...] the Alexandrian christians did not 
 NC>speak Greek as 
 NC>> their native tongue [...]
 NC>
 NC>Utter, absolute, nonsense.

Not at all. I don't know what was omitted in the [...], but many, if not most 
Egyptian Christians did not speak Greek as their native tongue, just as they 
don't today. Undoubtedly there WERE Greek-speaking Christians, but a fairly 
large proportion of the Greek-speaking population remained pagan for quite a 
long time.

Steve Hayes
Department of Missiology
University of South Africa
P O Box 392
Pretoria
0001 South Africa
--  
INTERNET: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
via:  THE CATALYST BBS in Port Elizabeth, South Africa.
       (catpe.alt.za)   +27-41-34-1122 HST or +27-41-34-2859, V32bis & HST.
From: mayne@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Smoking, health, risk, life...
Date: 3 Sep 92 03:53:27 GMT
Reply-To: mayne@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <Sep.1.22.25.33.1992.23215@athos.rutgers.edu> phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi) writes:
>
>One further question.  It is a recent discovery that smoking can kill.
>Does the church policy coincide with the medical discovery?  I think it was
>about 25 to 30 years ago that the surgeon general issued the statement that
>smoking can be hazardous to your health.  Even today, there are a few do
>not believe it.  What was the church's position before this medical
>discovery?  If non-smoking was the policy, what was the reason then?

I believe it was obvious to anyone with common sense that smoking was
harmful long before the surgeon general's report in the early 1960s.
The strange thing is that anyone would have ever thought burning
tobacco and inhaling the fumes was a good thing to do.

Some churches were definitely opposed to smoking long before the
sugeon general's report or other scientific evidence. I wasn't around and
don't know their reasons, if indead they actually articulated reasons. It
is quite possible that the modern evidence for the harmfulness of smoking
has been grabbed as a rationalization for a position many already held.
This would account for them being less zealous about other harmful things
such as high fat diets. Besides, it is much more comfortable to preach
against someone else's vice.

>If the respect for one's life is the reason for non-smoking, does the
>church equally strongly discourage motorcycle riding and other high risk
>activities, sports, etc.?  Games like intense soccer hardly ever end
>without someone gettting some kind of injury somewhere.  Boxing is known to
>kill and permanently damage human body.  Are these acceptable Christian
>games?

These are easy for the unathletic to oppose. The real test of consistency
would be things such as over eating, under exercising, and high fat diets.

In the church I grew up in football players were encouraged and respected,
as they were in the community generally, in spite of the risks of injury.
Many were injured. A big social event was "ice cream suppers" where everyone
would bring cholesterol rich home made ice cream to share. And the food at
other social dinners was standard American artery-clogging cancer-inducing
fare.

Bill Mayne
From: dtucker@eve.wright.edu (David Tucker)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Bible software, Mac vs PC
Date: 30 Aug 92 07:21:45 GMT

The comments about CDROMs recently have prompted two questions from
me about Mac vs PC systems for Bible software.

Presently, I do not own either a Mac or a PC (though I use a Mac IIfx
at work.)  But I plan to buy a good system (fast processor, big disk, 
good laser printer, System 7 or Windows 3, etc.) in the near future.

Therefore, before I invest in either system, I would like to find out
which Bible software packages are the better:  ones used on Macs or 
ones for PCs.  Or are they about the same.  This is not considering 
the CDROM issue.  Just Bible software packages that hard disk based 
without CDROM.

The second question would be which system supports the better CDROM Bible
packages.  (Or can certain software be used for each).

Again, this is not which system is better, Mac vs PC.  But which software
is better,  that available for the Mac or the PC.

I did not define "better", but to me it would include selection of 
good references works, searching power, editing ability, etc.
Perhaps "better" would best be defined by those who have tried
the software.

I am sure that this type of information has been discussed before.
So I don't want to redo it all, if a summary file exists, I would
appreciate getting a copy.

Thanks in advance,
Dave
   August and September:	dtucker@eve.wright.edu
   after September:  tuckerdr%ml%wpafb@mailgate.ml.wpafb.af.mil



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From: dtucker@eve.wright.edu (David Tucker)
Message-Id: <9208291830.AA30214@eve.wright.edu.>
To: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu
Subject: possible post
Cc: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu

*** EOOH ***
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 13:30:01 EST
From: dtucker@eve.wright.edu (David Tucker)
To: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu
Subject: possible post
Cc: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu



Dear Moderator,

Earlier in August I posted a question to soc.religion.christian but I
have reason to believe that you never received it.  The posting did come
through to my site (almost too quickly) as the following header shows:

Article: 3185 of soc.religion.christian
Relay-Version: VMS News - V6.0-3 14/03/90 VAX/VMS; site desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Bible software, Mac vs PC
From: dtucker@eve.wright.edu (David Tucker)
Date: 8 Aug 92 17:43:53 EST
Distribution: na
Organization: Wright State University
Keywords: Bible software, Mac, PC

But it lacked the usual lines that are in most posts in the group,
namely:


So I think you may never have received it.  Or, you may have
received it and did not post it.  That is OK since I realize
that you are trying to keep the volume of posts within
reasonable limits.  There is no need to post in it that case.
But if there was a system problem and you didn't get the post,
the text follows.

Thank you,
Dave Tucker
   August and September:	dtucker@eve.wright.edu
   after September:  tuckerdr%ml%wpafb@mailgate.ml.wpafb.af.mil

====================================================================

The comments about CDROMs recently have prompted two questions from
me about Mac vs PC systems for Bible software.

Presently, I do not own either a Mac or a PC (though I use a Mac IIfx
at work.)  But I plan to buy a good system (fast processor, big disk, 
good laser printer, System 7 or Windows 3, etc.) in the near future.

Therefore, before I invest in either system, I would like to find out
which Bible software packages are the better:  ones used on Macs or 
ones for PCs.  Or are they about the same.  This is not considering 
the CDROM issue.  Just Bible software packages that hard disk based 
without CDROM.

The second question would be which system supports the better CDROM Bible
packages.  (Or can certain software be used for each).

Again, this is not which system is better, Mac vs PC.  But which software
is better,  that available for the Mac or the PC.

I did not define "better", but to me it would include selection of 
good references works, searching power, editing ability, etc.
Perhaps "better" would best be defined by those who have tried
the software.

I am sure that this type of information has been discussed before.
So I don't want to redo it all, if a summary file exists, I would
appreciate getting a copy.

Thanks in advance,
Dave
   August and September:	dtucker@eve.wright.edu
   after September:  tuckerdr%ml%wpafb@mailgate.ml.wpafb.af.mil


From rps@cbnewsh.att.com  Sat Aug 29 15:35:15 1992
Received: from att-out.att.com by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) 
	id AA17118; Sat, 29 Aug 92 15:35:15 EDT
To: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 15:32:11 EDT
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,soc.religion.christian,soc.religion.islam,soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Spirituality [What? How?]
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Message-Id: <1992Aug29.193200.25567@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>
Followup-To: poster
Keywords: Matter, Senses, Intellect, Intuition, Kingdom of heaven

"The new physicists have explained away Matter, but our Intellects
can follow them only theoretically. There is, however, an
intuitive faculty in man which, though generally dormant,
can follow them in a real way. Our consciousness of the solid
world depends upon the senses, which in turn are our means of
apprehending Matter."

"If we could withdraw consciousness from the senses for a time,
in a state of full awareness, we would then necessarily withdraw
it from Matter."

"And what would we find? A Vacuum?"

"We would find the spiritual world of being, so much spoken of by
great seers and sages of all times. To effect that withdrawal,
we need to suspend temporarily the action of intellect and allow
the ignored intuitive faculty to come into sway. But how many of us,
inordinately proud of intellect and its achievements as we are,
would be willing to do that?"

"Yet unless we do that we shall never fulfill the higher purpose
of our birth, never to find the true kingdom of heaven."

			[Paul Brunton in A Message from Arunachala]
					

---raj

[I don't know much about CDROM software.  But in other areas, a wide
variety of commercial packages are available for both Mac and PC, but
PC software tends to be somewhat more easily available.  There's a
very elaborate free system with several versions of text, Hebrew and
Greek tools, etc., that seems to be only for the PC.  However if you
prefer the Mac, you'll have no trouble finding several good programs.
--clh]
From: dlhpfm!dlh@ncoast.org (daniel lance herrick)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The problem of pain - query
Date: 28 Aug 92 06:37:29 GMT
Organization: dlh Performance Marketing

mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul) writes:

> 
> I know that reading a recent emailing with specifics of
> the genocidal madness inflicted on innocents in Yugoslavia has left
> me very, very shaken.  I find, too, that while most of us can find
> Bible verses discussing how the righteous are established and the
> wicked perish, I find in my reading of both Job and Ecclesiastes persons
> saying, "Hey!  It _isn't_ true that the righteous always flourish and the 
> wicked always perish - just as often the wicked are fat and sassy and the 
> righteous are without help!"  The answers aren't given in either place.  
> There's obviously truth in stating that things will turn out very different 
> in the hereafter, but that isn't going to satisfy very many people's 
> questions since we know so little about it.

This is the material of Psalm 73.

The psalmist says his feet had almost stumbled for he was "envious at
the foolish, when [he] saw the prosperity of the wicked."

In the first few verses he itemizes the wickednesses of the wicked,
culminating in "And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge
in the most High?"

He says his seeking after righteousness has been vain.

This theme ends at "Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then
understood I their end.  Surely thou didst set them in slippery places:
thou castedst them down into destruction.  How are they brought into
desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors."

The rest of the Psalm is about his regaining his footing so there is no
more danger of stumbling.

"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee. 
Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my
right hand.  Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward
receive me to glory."

How strong is the contrast with "they are utterly consumed with
terrors"!

The Psalm is well worthy of your study.