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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:31:36 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?

Excerpts from christia: 10-Nov-92 Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD? Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (398)

> Eric ;

> I am saying that if the Father does not "FORCE" people into the kingdom,
> in that they are MADE willing by a Sovereign God, they would    N E V E
> R   come to Christ at all.

Forcing someone, and making them willing, are entirely different.

> Unless God gives us the willingness, by changing our nature of hostility
> toward Him, we would not in a million aeons choose to come to Christ.

Agreed!

> This indicates that Regeneration PRECEEDS Faith in Christ.

This is a NON SEQUITUR.  Simply because God gives us willingness, does
not mean that he regenerates us.

> Jesus spoke to Nicodaemus in John 3 about the ORDER of events in
> Salvation. Unless a man is First Regenerated by God's Spirit, that man
> cannot even perceive the Kingdom.

The Scripture says "enter" the Kingdom, not "perceive."

> For any of us to receive the gift of Faith and ACTUALLY turn to Christ,
> we need to first be a person with a renewed mind, a renewed spirit ABLE
> to receive the things of God, for we know that the unregenerate man, as
> Paul says in 1 Cor. 2 CANNOT receive the things of God, for they are
> spiritually discerned.

No, 1 Cor 2:14 says, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the
things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to
him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritual
discerned."

This plainly refers to the wisdom of God.  Those who are not aided by
the Spirit cannot understand the wisdom of God.  It does not say that a
man must be regenerated in order to believe.  It does not say that a man
cannot receive grace without regeneration.  All it says is that in our
natural, unaided state, we cannot understand the wisdom of God.

> OK Eric, let's beg the question, "How does the man become ABLE to
> discern and receive spiritual things of God?"

By the grace of God.

> Only by FIRST being mad ABLE to do so, and Jesus calls this "being born
> again" in John 3.

Another non-sequitur.  First, John 3 refers to baptism (born of water
and the Spirit, just as Jesus receive the Spirit at his baptism).  But
barring that since you disagree, I see no reason to link regeneration
strictly with being made able. God can make able without regenerating.

>  Otherwise, you would have God giving faith to people who have no way of
> receiving it, in fact they would still technically be hostile to God.
> All people in their unregenerate state are   H O S T I L E   to God, as
> Paul says in Romans 5 and Romans 8.

Seems to me that Romans 8, which says "the sinful mind is hostile to
God.  It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.  Those
controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God," refers to our
ability to resist sin, not to belief.  Paul says that the sinful mind
cannot submit to God's law (i.e., it cannot avoid sin).  Does he say
that the sinful mind is unable to believe, though?

I think Paul is making a point about slavery to sin, that the man who
lives according to the sinful nature is unable to control his sin.  I
don't think he's saying that the sinful man is wholly unable to believe
at all.

Excerpts from christia: 10-Nov-92 Re: Predestination or Free .. Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (763)

> What would men do with faith in Christ if God attempted to give them
> that gift, apart from first making them "born again" (Regenerated) in
> order to be able to receive the things of God?

It depends on whether the grace of God has enabled them to respond.

> They would spit it out EVERY time. No man is willing to come to Christ,
> unless Christ first makes that man willing.  Left to their old decadant
> selves, men will ALWAYS REJECT the grace of God and faith in Christ,
> unless God first does something a priori in those men.

Yes, but again, that "a priori" something does not necessarily need to
be regeneration.  It's simply the grace of God.

> We, like dogs would return to our vomit, unless the Lord first would make us
> alive by His Spirit, then we are able to TURN by faith to Christ.

Yeah, but can God not enable someone to be willing, and can God not give
someone life, without regenerating them?

For a word that appears maybe once in Scripture (regeneration), you're
sure attributing a whole heck of a lot of verses to it.  In fact, I
believe that verse, Titus 3:5, refers explicitly to baptism ("Washing of
regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" ("washing of rebirth",
NIV), linking baptism to regeneration (Eph 5:26, "cleansing her by the
washing with water through the Word", Heb 10:22, "let us draw near to
God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, . . . having our
bodies washed with pure water").

Eric
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