From: vid@zooid.guild.org (David Mason)
Newsgroups: tor.general,ut.general
Subject: Re: Computer shops in Toronto --- opinions?
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:29:24 GMT

From: evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch)
>In article <713538707.9884@zooid.guild.org>
>	vid@zooid.guild.org (David Mason) writes:
>
>>>>buy from, I would like to find out about other people's experiences with
>>>>Toronto's computer shops.  The things I am trying to find out are:
>>>         [...stuff deleted...]
>>>Shop around Future Shop when they have something on sale.
>>
>>I don't like Future Shop's stuff, because they are always trying to sell
>>Brand" computers, which defeats the purpose of buying an IBM AT clone in the
^^ name
>>first place.
>
>Is the main goal to have a good, solid working computer, or to insist
>on a clone?

The former, which generally coincides with the latter.

>
>The marketplace for computers is getting more competitive and more
>commodity oriented. If you can buy a reputable-name-brand computer for
>the price of a clone, why bother with the clone?

Because. Name brand computers don't use standard parts. When you want to
upgrade, get advice, or get repairs you are stuck getting them from the
company that made the system. The cases aren't standard. In a clone, when you
want to upgrade from a 386sx to a 486DX, you pull the motherboard out (and
sell it) and drop in a 486. You can't do that with most brand name boards,
except the ones that feature processor upgrades, but those are overpriced in
the first place. Besides, I haven't seen any name brand machines that compare
to a similiarly priced clone unless they are really stripped down.

>
>I have totally given up on clone makers. Because of the nature of the
>business, they generally belong to the motherboard-of-the-month club,
>and next year when something goes wrong, they may not even have the
>jumper-pin settings for the one you buy today, let alone know how to
>service it.

I guess you have had some bad experiences with clone dealers. I'm really sorry
to hear that. Besides, how many name brand companies do you know of that can
answer many technical questions? A lot of name brand systems use clone parts
and even motherboards anyways, so they are in the dark as much as anyone. And
by their nature they aren't usually a deal. At least when you get a clone it's
usually reasonably new stuff, with name brand stuff, because they are trying
to remain consistant, their stuff is usually outdated as well as being
overpriced. It's true that you don't want to try equipment that is basically
still in beta test, but I have not had any bad experiences like that for a
few years. Besides, if you are smart, you will get the manuals for the
motherboard and other important parts, so the dealer doesn't have to.

 
>
>Cheap clones also have been known to use flimsy^H^H^H^H^H^Hnovel
>caching schemes which can break many versions of UNIX. And their bus
>timings can be off in ways that are tolerated by DOS but cause memory
>errors under UNIX.

Yeah well it's always the name brand systems that you are reading about that
need fixes and adjustments. I've installed SCO Xenix, Unix, Consensys, Novell,
various versions of DOS, and so on, on all sorts of clones without any
problems. It's always the name brand systems that do weird things (in the name
of competition) that make them incompatible. It wasn't the clones that came
out with shadow ram, ram caching, and so on in the first place, it was the
name brand systems and motherboard manufacturers. The clones generally just
clone things.

>
>These kinds of experience has happened to me at thee separate Mississauga
>clone makers (some of whom came highly recommended), and have send me to the
>low-end brands from the mainstream computer makers. The Everex Tempo,
>AST Bravo, and ALR Flyer lines are designed explicitly to compete with
>clones, and do a fair job of it. The name brand stuff has never given me
>the headaches that the clones have, and my time spent on the clones more
>than made up for their cheaper prices.

Ah, can you swap the motherboard for a faster one? Can you fit lots of drives
in it? Can you easily upgrade the memory using standard SIMMS? Can you easily
upgrade the video card to a standard one? Do you have enough slots for a sound
card, video card, i/o card, scsi card, and midi card? 

>
>>You're much better off buying a true clone, one that can have
>>it's parts swapped with other standard clone parts.
>
>I consider this a bug, not a feature. If you feel good about buying your
>computer from a clone shop where it's easier to swap a bad board than do
>it right the first time, go ahead. I have better things to do with my time.
>
>>Besides, most of the people who work at Future Shop don't really seem to know
>>what they are talking about.
>
>Who gives a damn?

But you just said  awhile ago that it's important! Make up your mind!

>
>Now that more computer shoppers know what they want and can buy stuff
>without need for skilled salesmen, the commodity, low-markup shops can
>be a good choice. I found a better price on my Laserjet at FutureShop
>than at any "pure" computer store, even lower than the "dealer" pricing
>I was given by some suppliers. I didn't need the salesman to do anything
>more than draw up the invoice, the shopping for features had aleady been
>done.
>

Yes, that's right, and that's not something you're going to have to call all
the computer stores for tech support. Believe me, I've tried to shop at Future
Shop, but they can't answer questions. At the office where I work someone
insisted on buying a Mac from them (shudder) and there was no support. The
people are not only technicaly uninformed, they are too busy because Future
Shop only cares about volume. I bet if you had called around you could have
gotten a better price anyways.

>Some of the best places to buy hardware now are places you might least
>expect. Price Club now sell Dell. If you know what you want, why spend
>money on sales help you don't need? 

I definatley know what I want, and it's not a problem for me. But most people
don't know what they want, and they want to buy a computer from someone who
can answer questions, and they want something they can upgrade in the future,
can have repaired reasonably. 

What's so special about Dell? Nothing. They put their hardware together well,
but they are using standard parts, standard motherboards, video cards, etc.
They are just using  good, standard parts, just like any other dealer, except
they put it in their own special case (that doesn't usually fit standard
motherboards). If you are a knowledgeable shopper, you can get a clone that
has the exact same parts as a Dell, except it's in a standard expandable case,
and if you are a novice, you can get a system with a little shopping around
that will serve you for years. The fact of the PC marketplace is that the
software is always taking advantage of the available hardware, so if you need
to keep up with the newest release of software, you have to keep upgrading
your hardware. Paying a price premium for a system that will be worth a half
or a third of it's original value without being upgradeable, and one that you
are basically stuck with if the dealer goes out of business.. just doesn't
make sense.

I'm really sorry that you've obviously had some bad experiences with clones in
the past, Evan. But I haven't, I've used a lot of clone stuff, and I support a
lot of it at work. And the systems that have problems are always the name
brand ones. IBM, Apple, NCR, Compuadd, these are all systems I've dealt with
which are all name brand and all have something different about them which
doesn't make them better, it makes them more difficult to work with. And their
support? Hah. Don't make me laugh.

Newsgroups: tor.general,ut.general