From: david.brooks@cutting.hou.tx.us (David Brooks)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Brainwaves & John Hau
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:24:00 GMT
Reply-To: david.brooks@cutting.hou.tx.us (David Brooks)
Organization: The Cutting Edge - Houston, TX - 713-466-1525

JFH> There is photographic evidence that shows that a child of 9 or 10
JFH> weeks gestation is capable of voluntary movement in response to
JFH> external stimulus.  I have such a video tape showing my own child
JFH> flopping about.  It's just an ultrasound, but its pictures all the
JFH> same.  Others have made real pictures (meaning, in color ...) of
JFH> the same thing.

   So? I have an amoeba that can do the same thing...are you going to
   argue that it is human too?

JFH> It is known from endoscopic observations during amneo that a child
JFH> will react negatively to being pricked by the needle used to draw
JFH> fluid.  This is often done well before the neural tube closes
JFH> because it is used to test for genetic defects which will result
JFH> in the neural tube never closing.  Closure of the neural tube is not
JFH> a prerequisite for brain functioning, or reflexes.  People with
JFH> severe spinal bifida will testify to this fact.

   Again, given a needle small enough not to kill it, an amoeba will
   squirm too. You can see it for yourself with a drop of pond water and a
   microscope. Last time I checked having a rudimentary nervous system was
   not enough to qualify as human.

JFH> Finally, differentiation of the human brain begins, and is readily
JFH> observable as early as three weeks.  Gray's points this out on the
JFH> pages that I referenced.  Complete development is not a requirement
JFH> for human brain function.

   Being human is not a requirement for brain function at all...does this
   lead somewhere?  All you have proven is that a foetus is alive. I don't
   think that was ever in dispute.

JFH> Two points.  One, if you want to know about when the brain begins
JFH> to work, either look at a fetus on a monitor and watch what the
JFH> child does, or don't read an anatomy book.  An anatomy book tells
JFH> you when things are present.  Surprise, the brain is present from
JFH> early on.  Right now, at 4 months, my child alternates between
JFH> periods of sleep and periods of flopping about.  It responds in
JFH> different ways to different levels of noise, vibration, pressure,
JFH> temperature, etc.  Four months is not 21 weeks.  Two, if you believe
JFH> in binary outcomes, "all" or "nothing" as it relates to "human brain"
JFH> and "human brainwaves" sounds plausible.  There are people with one
JFH> half of their brain removed who are doing just fine.  It's an
JFH> operation called a "lobectomy" and is used as a treatment for very
JFH> severe cases of certain types of seizures.  The doctor takes out
JFH> the troublesome half, and leaves the lower portions (where human
JFH> brainwaves don't come from anyway), and the other half of the upper
JFH> portion (where human brainwaves do come from ...) alone.  So much
JFH> for needing all of your brain to generate brainwaves.

   Um...again, a fish generates brainwaves, so do lots of "lower" animals.
   They can also alternate between sleep and flopping about. This dosn't
   make them human.

JFH> But I've given you THREE sources now which support my point.  A text
JFH> on "Obstetric Nursing" which points out when certain neural
JFH> developments
JFH> occur is NOT a refutation of a source which says when certain actions
JFH> take place.  What you need is a source which says that neural tube
JFH> closure is a prerequisite for brainwave activity.  It isn't, so your
JFH> source is simply irrelevant.  It's a nice source, I think Jeanette has
JFH> a copy of a similar text around here.  But it is IRRELEVANT to the
JFH> discussion.

   I believe the discussion here was HUMAN brainwaves...this would require
   a well developed cerebrum. Otherwise all you are demonstrating that a
   foetus is alive. (I'm starting to feel like a broken record here!)

JFH> This is BULLSHIT.

JFH> If you stick an endoscope into a woman's uterus, stick a needle into
JFH> the same uterus, and poke that child with a needle, at far less than
JFH> 21 to 24 weeks, that child is going to react.  Leaving our endoscope
JFH> in place, if you shine a bright light against a woman's abdomen, you
JFH> will observe our subject turn away from the light.  Leaving that same
JFH> endoscope still in place, if you wait long enough, that child will
JFH> be found to be sucking its thumb (if it has managed to find both its
JFH> thumb and its mouth ...), grasping its umbilical cord, and a slew of
JFH> other actions.  All long before the child is too large to thrash
JFH> about.

   Brine shrimp also react to light. They aren't human either!

JFH> I know you hate anecdotes, but here's one.  Jeanette was feeling very
JFH> tired after a long drive up from Brownsville, so I gave her a massage
JFH> all over.  We have one of those "vibrating" massages, so I was using
JFH> it on some of her muscles that were particular sore.  Whenever I would
JFH> get it closer to her abdomen, she would tell me that the kid was
JFH> being more active.  After a brief discussion, we decided this might
JFH> not be good for the kid, so we stopped.  Our kid was right at 16 weeks
JFH> gestation.  You can try this at home.

   Kittens do the same thing.....(ho hum)

JFH> John F. Haugh II

   David

 * Q-Blue v0.7 [NR] *