From: lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Malik Shabazz, Islam and Anti-Semitism...
Date: 18 Nov 92 03:11:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Nov16.142553.15082@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney) writes:

>##More Jews were expelled from Arab lands than Palestinians from Israel.

>#Irrelevant.  This was a reaction to the creation of a self-declared
>#Jewish state on land occupied by a signficant perccentage of non-Jews.

>Why is the expulsion of 800,000 Jews from Arab countries "irrelevant"?

Because it happened after (and as a reaction to) the expulsion of the
Palestinians from what became Israel.

>Because they were absorbed by Israel and not intentionaly left
>in refugee camps? Why didn't the rich Arab countries help these
>people instead of buying property all over the world and spending
>billions of dollars on extravagant life style?

The Rich Arabs care about one thing: The Rich Arabs.  This doesn't
excuse or justify what was done to the Palestianians.



>#Again a meaningless statistic.  There are Arabs in the Israeli
>#parliament, but they are systematically exluded from any position
>#of authority.

>Like the two deputy ministers in the current government?

Could you name them please.  I recently read in the NYT that Arab MKs
are excluded from parliamentary committees dealing even remotely with
national defense.


>#Moreover, Israel has no civil rights legislation, and no bill of
>#rights.  

>True, unfortunately. However, such a bill is in preparation. The
>declaration of independance does include something like a bill
>of rights, but I agree it is not a good enough substitute.

That's an understatement.  The result of this lack has been: Arabs
living under martial law for the first decade and a half, followed by
systematic discrepancies in public spending since then.


>#Arabs are routinely discriminated against in government
>#policies (primarily in that they are excluded from the Army, and most
>#government benefits flow from military service), 

>The matter of the army service is a delicate one, in which Israel's
>position is unique. It would be better if everybody served in the
>army, but you have to agree that in the current situation it would
>be a problem.

I'm not complaining about excluding Arabs from the Army.  But so many
government benefits are predicated on Army service that excluding them
from the Army means excluding them from the group that is benefited by
government welfare programs.  There is no excuse to premise so many
benefits on Army service except racism.



>Furthermore, do you think it is really such a great
>bonus to be in the army? You spend 3 years in regular service and
>another accumulating 3 years in the reserve!! That means that
>between the ages of 18 and 55 you spend 6 (!!) years in the army.
>Can you imagine what damage that does to one's professional
>career and/or studies and/or family life and/or economic situation?
>Also, there are not that much "government benefits" that are
>conditioned on military service (which excatly did you mean?),
>and they are justified in view of the above.

How about regulations promulgated under the Discharged Soldiers
(Return to Work) Law which provide that discharged soldiers (and their
spouse, children or parents) receive a grant for their third or
greater child?

Moreover, for three years after service (for any length of time), a
discharged soldier receives: employment preferences, occupational
training preferneces, educational subsidies, extra apartment
subsidies.

BTW, Yeshiva students, who are exmempt from service, somehow still get
these benefits.


>I am not saying Israel is perfect - no question it could be better.
>And, yes, it has yet to improve in certain aspects. But one has
>to bring all factors into consideration. It is a young country,
>born in chaos and living in chaos since then, surrounded by
>many larger countries which were/are extremely hostile towards
>it. Hopefully things will change for the better, all over the
>mideast.

Amen.

I wish Israel no ill will.  But as someone who was raised on Zionist
mythology, I feel obliged to present a more realistic picture.

-- 
larry kolodney:(lkk@panix.com) 
_(*#&)#*&%)@(*^%_!*&%^!)*&#+!*&$+!?&%+!*&^_)*&#%)*&^%#+&
The past is not dead, it's not even past.   - Wm. Faulkner
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast