HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NS'486 - Verrrry interesting ...
From: scott@nic.gac.edu (Scott Hess)
Date: 17 Dec 92 06:49:56
Distribution: world
Organization: Gustavus Adolphus College

Tonight (this morning?), while unable to sleep, I was reading an
old copy of BusinessWeek (Nov 23, 92).  The issue's cover is on
how many bemoths in the computer industry are splitting things up
and bringing in outside help and the like (which, to my mind, says
alot about NeXT's factory ...)

In any case, I get to the end, and what do I see but a glossy "Intel
Inside" ad on the inside back cover.  Dang thing probably cost
Intel about what I'll make in the 1990's ... at least it doesn't
have those cheesy "towers of power" that look sort of like strange
Rude Goldberg devices ... so, I'm looking things over to see what
software they've got on their shelves.  My thought was that "there
must be duplicates in there".  Indeed, there are (for instance,
there's an Adobe Illustrator on the top shelf on the left, and on
the second shelf on the right.  There are also two or more Windows
boxes and MSC++ boxes).

Anyhow, on the left, second shelf, midway across, there's a package
called "NeXTSTEP".  "NeXT" is in white, "STEP" is in orange.  It's
an end view of the box. There's a PC-type color monitor at the
bottom with windows and stuff in it.  I can't really see what's
running (my eyes aren't _that_ good).  There's a nice little NeXT
logo at the top in a white field.  It looks like the front has a
larger "NeXTSTEP" on it.

Interesting,
--
scott hess <shess@ssesco.com>     <I will not spin the turtle -Bart Simpson>
12901 Upton Avenue South, #326  Burnsville, MN 55337 (612) 895-1208 Anytime!
  * ... like a big church choir with all it's members' mouths wide open, *
               * singing silence   -Blood Music, Greg Bear *
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: vhs@rhein-main.de (Volker Herminghaus-Shirai)
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey
Reply-To: vhs@rhein-main.de
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 20:55:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.191522.2941@netcom.com> abell@netcom.com (Steven T. Abell) writes:
> matthews@ecfa.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael C. Matthews) writes:
> 
> > Steve Jobs is a marketer.  Bill Gates is an engineer.
> 
> No, Bill Gates is a hacker. Steve Jobs is an exception.

Calling Bill Gates a hacker is a compliment. I know of no
decent hacker who would use BASICK without a Smith & Wesson
pointed at his face. Bill Gates even favors it. He stopped
active programming short after creating a BASIC interpreter
for the Apple II. It performed integer calculations at *half*
the speed of floating point calculations because all integers
were converted to floats, then the calculation was done, and
the results were converted back to integer. I can not remember
having seen a greater braindamage in any run-time environment.
That was hand-coded by Bill Gates. Even now he is trying to
push BASIC dialects of all sorts (VisualBasick, etc.), probably
so he'll be able to program his own address book application
one day).

BTW. If Steve jobs was a marketer then the marketers at Apple
wouldn't have complimented him out. He is a perfectionist
techno-visionary with enough money to implement his dreams
and just enough marketing in his blood to enable us to take
part in his dreams (if we shell out the bucks).

Bill Gates got stuck in the mental state of somebody who
thinks that having ever more money is ever better. Poor guy.

--
Volker Herminghaus-Shirai (vhs@qb.rhein-main.de)

Looks good on the outside, but -
	intel inside
From: szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey (Was: Mike Slade)
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:51:25 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

>If AMD thought like this we wouldn't have sold $1.5B this year.
Again I was speaking about REAL inovation, not re inventing the wheel
:-)  More along the lines of lets invent the VCR for the 1st time, not
lets develope a new faster cheaper chip.

later, John
-- 
NeXT Campus Consultant---Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey |my    %^)
John Kheit/monoChrome  | Opinions expressed represent me only!       |fried %-)
173 Westgate Drive     | Audix Voice Mail# (415) 366-0900 X5512      |brain %>)
Edison, NJ 08820-1163  | kheit@hangout.rutgers.edu,szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu
From: szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Insults (was: Re: standardizing NeXTSTEP)
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:00:28 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

> sort of bigotry has not prevented NeXT from taking a loss every

It was not hardware or software bigotry that motiviated my insults.
:-)

First off I had an IBM, then a Mac and now a NeXT.  What motivated me
to move from one to the other?  I genuinly feel that one is better
than the other, thats the motivation.  
What would motivate me to call Gates a Jerk?  I think he is, thats
why.  I think he is the opitamy of what was wrong in the car industry
in the 70's, except he's involved with software.  He purposfully makes
mediocre products, becase he can get away with it.

On a personal level, I dont know either Jobs, nor Gates, and they both
are probably princely guys :-)

As far as who is doing something to make computing better for
EVERYONE, it is Jobs.

So I'll continue to bash mediocraty because I dont want the software
industry to pack up and head to the Soviet Union or Japan like every
other industry has in the past.  Gates is promoting this.

later, John
 
-- 
NeXT Campus Consultant---Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey |my    %^)
John Kheit/monoChrome  | Opinions expressed represent me only!       |fried %-)
173 Westgate Drive     | Audix Voice Mail# (415) 366-0900 X5512      |brain %>)
Edison, NJ 08820-1163  | kheit@hangout.rutgers.edu,szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu
From: rawyatt@phakt.usc.edu (Robert Alexander Wyatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Insults (was: Re: standardizing NeXTSTEP)
Date: 15 Dec 1992 23:22:02 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu


In regard to Jeff Henshaw's comments...

Jeff is essentially right...CEO bashing gets one nowhere...The NeXT community,
however, has a right to dislike MicroSoft...Like it or not, the software
"mickey-soft" publishes is slowly amounting to little more then bloated
garbage...businesses, however, are brainwashed - for them there is only 
mickey-soft...Given this sad and sorry state of affairs, a Word and Excel port
would probably help NeXT a great deal...

However...if I am not mistaken, was it not Bill Gates who initiated the war 
between MicroSoft and NeXT?  From what I understand, Jobs wanted MicroSoft to
port software to NeXT, but Gates flat out refused...in fact, didn't Gates
make some ridiculous comment to the effect that he would rather piss on the
machine then develop for it?...(read it in UNIXWorld or some mag like that - 
don't flame me if I'm wrong)

I was under the impression that Jobs had sought out MicroSoft support 
initially...I don't think NeXT and MicroSoft will ever make a happy couple...
NeXTstep is everything weenie Windows wants to be but never will...and
MicroSoft can pride itself on vaporware until it is blue in the face - NeXT
however delivers its customers the goods, not just empty promises...

So the war will continue and no one will win and eventually no one will care
as NeXT carves out its market - with or without MicroSoft...I for one am happy
that MicroSoft isn't writing anything for NeXT - not that I would so much as
pay one cent for software like Excel or Word - on any platform!

-Rob
rawyatt@scf.usc.edu

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Insults (was: Re: standardizing NeXTSTEP)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 18:28:11 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <5482@disuns2.epfl.ch> scheurer@lithnext.epfl.ch (Marco  
Scheurer) writes:
> In article <1gq9cjINN5cc@transfer.stratus.com>  
jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
> (Jim Mann) writes:
> > ...
> > Why?  Word is one of the best (perhaps the best) word processor  
on
> > the market, and Excel is THE best spreadsheet on the market. In
> > fact, for a long time, nobody was even close to Excel, ...
> > --
> > Jim Mann
> 
> Microsoft Word is the BASIC of word processors.

What then do you consider a good word processor.  I've used
Word (DOS, Windows, and Mac versions), WordPerfect (DOS 4.2 and 5.1),
WordStar, Frame (NeXT and X), WriteNow (NeXT and Mac), MacWrite,
and others.  Word is easily the best of all them. WriteNow (Mac,
not NeXT) is pretty close for lower end jobs, and Frame is
more powerful (though harder to use).  But Word does a great job
of combining incredible power with ease of use.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey(LONG) (Was: Mike Slade)
Date: 12 Dec 92 01:08:00 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

>Sigh.  What have you got against marketing people
Nothing...I'm an MBA marketing student--I would hate to hate myself
:-)

I still dont think that there is a useful place for Marketers in
innovation.  I dont think that sending out a marketer to find problems
with potential solutions is how you get true innovation.  I don't
think Einstein's ideas were too marketable and people couldn't
directly become more productive from those ideas, but the world is
much better off knowing about his innovative ideas.

At anyrate, I think this is one of those, lets agree to disagree
situations.  Vive la differance !

later, John
-- 
NeXT Campus Consultant---Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey |my    %^)
John Kheit/monoChrome  | Opinions expressed represent me only!       |fried %-)
173 Westgate Drive     | Audix Voice Mail# (415) 366-0900 X5512      |brain %>)
Edison, NJ 08820-1163  | kheit@hangout.rutgers.edu,szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu
From: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey (Was: Mike Slade)
Date: 11 Dec 1992 19:09:48 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world
Reply-To: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
NNTP-Posting-Host: pundit.cithep.caltech.edu

In article <Dec.11.01.47.39.1992.17798@gandalf.rutgers.edu>  
szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit) writes:
> 	What I think is that when you want true inovation and progress
> in this world you better make sure that a marketing person is no where
> near it because they do not belong there.

While that may be strictly true, it is rather beside the point.  The fact of  
the matter is that true innovation is an exceedingly rare thing.  It takes a  
very special kind of person to come up with truly new ideas.  That person may  
have a background in engineering, sociology, or even marketing, but *to the  
extent they are an innovator* they are none of those things.  How they were  
trained affects their outlook, but all training is, by definition, in a  
particular pattern- nobody can create a mold that teaches how to break the  
mold.

Marketing people are locked into a marketing viewpoint - but engineering people  
are locked into an engineering viewpoint.  If engineers ran things, everything  
would just get faster, not better (like SUN ;-).  What is needed are creative  
people in an environment that rewards creativity.  You don't need too many, or  
you stifle communication, but you also need people from different perspectives  
to help shape things.  The important thing is to get the right people, not just  
get them from the right department.

Mark's point about Jobs is just that.  Steve's gift is for having a vision,  
finding the right people to mold that vision into reality, and giving them a  
place to do their stuff.  If Steve were a vice-president, he would probably be  
in charge of marketing, wouldn't you agree? Because that's what he's good at.  
But he's not acting as a marketer, he's acting as an innovator.

-- Ernie P.

P.S.  One of the wonderful/terrible things about today is that NeXT is changing  
from being 'leading-edge' to becoming 'state-of-the-art'.  Which is good in  
that NeXT will be far more usable, but sad in that you lose the frontier  
spirit. Which also means you need less innovators and more maintiainers.  Ah,  
the price of success.
--
Ernest N. Prabhakar                  Caltech High Energy Physics
Member, League for Programming Freedom (league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
CaJUN President        NeXTMail:ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu
"...and ourselves, your servants for Jesus sake." - II Cor 4:5b
#import <std/disclaimer.h>
From: ovrskeek@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (I am the OVER-skeek!)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Date: 20 Dec 1992 22:34:25 -0600
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern) writes:

>From what I understand, the new PA processors come out slightly ahead
>of the Alpha at *two thirds* the clock rate...   i.e. a 99mhz PA is
>just a wee bit (not enough to really matter) faster than a 150mhz
>Alpha.  Pretty killer.  I wonder if HP will be able to crank the clock
>rates up without the suckers melting...

The only problem with this is that the Alpha goes to 200mhz.....

--------------
ovrskeek
From: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:18:51 GMT
Reply-To: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

Matthew Dillon writes

>     But most people aren't you.  Most consumers and small business
>     will be perfectly happy with somewhat slower machines, somewhat
>     smaller monitors, somewhat less memory, and the result will be
>     that they will be able to buy 3 whole systems for the price of
>     one of your monstrosities.

Your right.  Most people certainly don't push systems as hard as
I do.  They don't need the same hardware.  It's something I tend
to forget very easily...

>     This is definitely debatable... it's time verses compatibility.
>     Over-restricting the configuration will take NeXT right out of
>     the marketplace.  For example, if NeXT decides to not support
>     IDE (the majority of PC's use IDE) or if NeXT decides to require
>     an ethernet board or if NeXT decides to require a custom NeXT
>     board or decides to support only XVGA (they *must* support SVGA
>     at a minimum).

Note that they will support SVGA - for 2 bit grayscale.  Not for
2x2x2 color.  That's too hard and too slow.  2 bit grayscale for
SVGA is already a bitch.  And note that they will only support VESA
SVGA cards - they won't support every bizzare SVGA interpretation.
That's just too much work.  I worry that when people say "support
SVGA" they mean *every* SVGA card, and in color.

Hopefully, SVGA will die quickly and will be replaced by a
framebuffer-based standard (JAWS or XGA/NI or whatever...) so we
can get rid of such incompatibility problems (and a lousy graphics
standard) once and for all...

--
Scott Byer                             NeXTMail: byer@mv.us.adobe.com
Adobe Systems Incorporated               These are *my* opinions, and  
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900        do not necessarily reflect
Mountain View, CA 94039-7900             the opinions of my employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest)
Subject: Re: Insults (was: Re: standardizing NeXTSTEP)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:57:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.194419.27533@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov> vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.173717.19342@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com  
>(mark.d.wuest) writes:
>> Microsoft's success is because of pure luck involving IBM's choice of
>> hardware and software for a product they weren't sure would even catch
>> on. IBM's stamp made the P.C. P.C. (Politically Correct - pun intended).
>> 
>Uh, hello?  There's a world of difference between getting/making a good  
>break/start and successfully piloting a company beyond its first success.

Hello! So you dispute that fact that Microsoft is *still* riding that
first good break? You mean to say that deciding MS-DOS was what
everyone wanted was a shrewd decision? Remember who wrote TRS-DOS?
Know anyone making TRS-DOS computers today?

Mark
-- 
Mark Wuest                              |     *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mdw@violin.att.com (Sun Mailtool Ok)    |
mdw@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail)        |
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com (Ron Pomeroy x(Coop))
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey (Was: Mike Slade)
Reply-To: rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 16:58:01 GMT

In article <2B27D525.33B5@deneva.sdd.trw.com> thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark  
Thomsen) writes:
>>John Kheit writes
>>> At any rate Marketing HAS NOTHING AND SHOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH
>>> R&D AND/OR NEW PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT!  Marketing and R&D are both
>>> neccessary and different entities like creation and maintenence in
>>> Darwinian theory.

If AMD thought like this we wouldn't have sold $1.5B this year.  It was our
customers that drove our product decisions - through out marketing folks! 

Thats spelled "M-a-r-k-e-t D-r-i-v-e-n" thank you....
--
Ronald Pomeroy		[Objective-Cruntime: [Smalltalk runtime]];
Advanced Micro Devices	[self dream-on];
CAM Applications Group
rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com (NeXTmail preferred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: harit@kripalu.com
Subject: Re:  100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Reply-To: harit@kripalu.com
Organization: Kripalu Center
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 17:20:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.171344.16095@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov>  
vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Greg Vesper - RMS) writes:
> In article <dillon.0spj@overload.Berkeley.CA.US>  
dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US  
> [deletion]
> You said it.  Give me NeXTSTEP on an HP 735 or 755.  That's 140 SPECmarks  
with  
> Fast and Wide SCSI (20 Meg/Second).  Tune your software to exploit this  
> hardware and your cookin.  But that means a real SCSI driver and a real  
paging  
> algorithm.
> 
> [deletion]

I would not mind an HP port but my wish would be a port to DEC Alpha.  The low  
end at about $15k for a workstation or $25k for a server is about twice as fast  
as a 745 which uses the PA-RISC 7100.  The alpha line goes much higher than  
that both in single processors and multiprocessors.  If we are talking high end  
performance this looks good to me.  The best of all worlds would be to port to  
EACH of the leading workstations and let us choose the hardware we want (and  
can get serviced locally).

I agree that the VM performance needs lots of work.  Try opening a 30MB Improv  
worksheet on a 20MB machine some time!  Objects have BAD locality. 
-- 
Michael Allen Latta
Kripalu Center
harit@kripalu.com
(413)448-3288
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: swiet@syzygy.cs.jhu.edu (Alexander Swietlicki)
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey(Short) (Was: Mike Slade)
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:02:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.180447.1495@linus.mitre.org> rseguine@buckeye.mitre.org (Roy SeGuine) writes:
>[stuff deleted]
>> Steve Jobs is a marketer.  Bill Gates is an engineer.
>
>Steve Jobs is a visionary.  Bill Gates wears very thick glasses.
>

    Steve Jobs has 9 letters in his name.  Bill Gates has...oh, nevermind.
From: szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey(LONG) (Was: Mike Slade)
Date: 14 Dec 92 17:32:44 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

>Steve Jobs is a marketer.
>Bill Gates is an engineer.

IMHO

Steve Jobs is cool.
Bill Gates is a jerk.  I dont care if he's into trains.

later, John
-- 
NeXT Campus Consultant---Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey |my    %^)
John Kheit/monoChrome  | Opinions expressed represent me only!       |fried %-)
173 Westgate Drive     | Audix Voice Mail# (415) 366-0900 X5512      |brain %>)
Edison, NJ 08820-1163  | kheit@hangout.rutgers.edu,szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu
From: jefferis@manas.engr.widener.edu (Raymond P Jefferis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Signal Proc. Thesis with NeXTstep
Date: 18 Dec 1992 19:26:14 GMT
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
NNTP-Posting-Host: engr.widener.edu

Regrets to those who couldn't find the ftp site for retrieving the thesis  
of Abhi Dodamani. It is
     manas.engr.widener.edu
Regards,
Raymond
From: jefferis@manas.engr.widener.edu (Raymond P Jefferis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Signal Proc. Thesis
Date: 18 Dec 1992 16:24:13 GMT
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
NNTP-Posting-Host: engr.widener.edu
Keywords: NeXTstep, signal processing, DSP

The thesis of Mr. A. Dodamani,  announced in my posting of a week ago, is  
now available in our ftp area:
	pub/Next/Thesis/
in which you will find two compressed files as follows:
	Report.tar.Z          (Postscript thesis)      about 1.5 Mb
	SignalLab.app.tar.Z   (App. with source codes) about 1.0 Mb
You may retrieve these at will over the next two weeks, <only>.

The thesis describes the design of an analog I/O front-end powered through  
the DSP port on the NeXT, DSP programming to drive it, and a NeXTstep  
design which implements a very user-friendly signal generator and  
oscilloscope on the NeXT screen for laboratory applications.

The Postscript copy of the thesis is intended for printing only on the  
NeXT printer, and some of the icons contained in it may not print on other  
printers.  We cannot possibly supply hardcopies, so regrets in advance to  
those who have difficulties with the printing.

Comments (congratulatory of course!) and suggestions (including offers of  
employment!) should be addressed to the author:
	dodamani@manas.engr.widener.edu  (NeXTmail enjoyed)

I hope some of you will enjoy reading this thesis as much as I have  
enjoyed advising it.

Holiday greetings!
Raymond

 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rseguine@buckeye.mitre.org (Roy SeGuine)
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey(Short) (Was: Mike Slade)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:04:47 GMT

[stuff deleted]
> Steve Jobs is a marketer.  Bill Gates is an engineer.
> 
> 
> --
> Mike Matthews, ex-Tether Dude +------------->   matthews@ial7.jsc.nasa.gov


Steve Jobs is a visionary.  Bill Gates wears very thick glasses.

---
Roy SeGuine  NeXT Cyberspace Architech & SA
*The tablet become a page, become a screen, become a world; a virtual world*

Organization: Sophomore, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA