From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Organization: Not Philips.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 06:43:24 GMT

[A little late perhaps but now crossposted to soc.culture.celtic]

In refd article, A.Grant@ucs.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant) writes:
>In article <1992Nov8.205021.21238@philmtl.philips.ca> ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
>>.. My experience is that multi-lingual (or
>>even multi-dialectual) people are much more open to acquiring some
>>proficiency in a further language than those only exposed to a single
>>language.
>
>....I take your point that there
>is more opportunity for someone in Scotland to be _actively_ bilingual in
>Scots and/or Gaelic, but that is the sort of thinking that gets English
>children learning Bengali and Urdu (not that I have anything against these
>languages, I just think French and German are far more important).

But Alisdair, you're still ignoring one of my basic points.  More important
for _what_.  French and German may help you in the quantity department,
Gaelic or Bengali or whatever may improve your life immeasurably in other
ways.

>>[Burns] _did_ write much of his work in Scots.  If that _is_ part of what 
>>he is respected for, how is that not "in his own right"?
>
>I mean, he is respected as a cultural icon, as the first half-decent poet
>to write in dialect, rather as Bob Dylan was the first half-decent poet to
>write pop lyrics. And Bob Dylan is internationally respected too.

I don't deny he is a cultural icon (although I won't subscribe for a moment
to the comparison with Dylan), but he is internationally respected not
for his _dialect_, but for his philosophies and his work as translated.

> We should
>be thankful that such people exist to break new ground, but in both cases
>their work doesn't stand up to cold analysis.

Whose cold analysis?

>>As Billy Kay describes so accurately, most Scottish schoolchildren
>>including my generation were ridiculed, often physically punished, for
>>using their native Scots in school.  It was not proper to speak Scots.
>
>Hang on. You're a successful international professional. How far would you 
>have got if all your teaching had been in Scots, with English as a despised 
>foreign language? Comedy actor? Social worker?

You might as well ask the question "How far would I have got if all my
teaching had been in French".  I would have got as far as that language
would have taken me, and learned a further language as necessary.

Instead, Scots was _suppressed_ at school, and when I started working, I
had to live with the stigma of having a Scottish accent, even though it is
a mild one.  But only in England of course, and within a certain strata in
Scotland.  I still detect that subtle attitude here occasionally when
dealing with Brits.

Don't get me wrong I don't dislike the English language, and I'm not sorry
I had a good education in it.  I _am_ outraged that the local dialect was
suppressed however, that school kids were made to feel inferior because
they used words they were told were "wrong".

> Institutionalising Scots
>and/or Gaelic, which seems to be what you are suggesting, is precisely the
>_worst_ thing Scotland could do to itself. 

Why the assumption that a basic Scots education institutionalises the
Scots?  Are they incapable of encompassing English, French whatever, as
well?  I see no fundamental problems with the potential of my sons who have
been educated bilingually in English and French here in Quebec.

>Scotland needs Europeans, not peasants.

This insulting remark sums up the whole thread.

You don't quote it, but I also wrote:
>The only interpretation I can find is that Alasdair is an extremely
>"successful" product of the dialect-is-unworthy-speak-only-RP education
>system that most of us have endured, and that he actually feels scorn for
>the language.

Seems perhaps I understated it.
-- 
Ray Dunn at home        |  Beaconsfield, Quebec  |  Phone: (514) 630 3749
ray@philmtl.philips.ca  |  dunn@cam.org          |  uunet!sobeco!philmtl!ray
Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15818 soc.culture.celtic:7313