HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Greg Frazier <maxwell!frazier@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: What's the point?
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:26:14 GMT
Distribution: world

weir@cbmvax.commodore.com (Robert Weir - Manuals) writes:
: 
: 
: As I understand it, atheism is the denial of god's existance.
: 
: But to get to this point you need to first understand what god is, 
: or at least understand what other people mean when they say "god" and
: then reject that god does exist. This seems rather pointless. By
: denying the existance of something, don't you validate its existance
: and then say simply, "Oh, by-the-by, that which I formally held to
: be true, I now hold as false? Denial is a weak argument.
: 
: How can an atheist point of view be argued?

I imagine, since there are no other responses to this article,
that I'm the only dweeb stupid enough to respond, but...

I take it then, that you believe in witches, dragons, ghosts,
Santa Claus, the Tooth Faery, etc.?  I think not.  People
may quibble about exactly what a god is, there are cultural
differences between one god and another, but they are close
enough that I, for one, have no problem in either using the
word "god" or saying that I don't believe that any exist.  Or,
to put it another way, most (all?) religions credit a god or
gods with the creation of the universe, Earth and life.  I
do not believe that there was a conscious force involved in
any of them.

--


Greg Frazier	frazier@CS.UCLA.EDU	!{ucbvax,rutgers}!ucla-cs!frazier
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:46 alt.atheism:14576
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <shearson!snark!pmetzger@uunet.uu.net>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Atheist or Agnostic Part two
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:32:12 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization

In article <199207291317.AA22006@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> mrice@churchill.columbiasc.ncr.com (Mark.Rice) writes:
>I'll rephrase it, and hopefully I won't offend anyone because of their
>definition of atheist or agnostic.  My questions are:
>
>Do you believe there is no God?
>
>or...
>
>that you have insufficient evidence to say there is or is not a God?

I think there is sufficient evidence to say there is no god as defined
by most of the world's major religions. It is possible that there is a
god who very scrupulous about avoiding involvement in the world, but
such a god is ignorable. It is also possible that there is a god who
does involve himself in the worlds affairs but is a trickster who
intentionally deceives, as in a god who would have created the world
in a single stroke but with fossils indicating it was much older in
place at the creation. However, such a god is also ignorable, as such
a god obviously does not want us to know the truth and will twist
things to accomplish its unknowable ends.

I refer to myself as an atheist, rather than an agnostic, because I
would say that my confidence in a lack of an "interesting" god is
similar to my confidence that the sun will rise in the morning.
Technically, I have no PROOF that the event will occur, but I have
high enough confidence that saying "I really don't know" isn't a
useful statement.

--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
		  Just say "NO!" to death and taxes.
			 Extropian and Proud.
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:20 alt.atheism:14476
From: lee@wang.com (Lee Story)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:29:18
Distribution: world
Organization: Wang Laboratories, Inc.

LAU WAI KUEN writes in rec.arts.books and other inappropriate places
about the term "agnostic":

	  Puh-lease!  Don't label yourself with the name the religious nuts give
   you!  Anyone who decides to be undecided about religion is a FREETHINKER!

   (Personally I prefer this because it's a sideways insult to the religious
   nuts. (Hi god!).  Implies their thinking isn't.)

I do like the observation on the term "freethinker", but wasn't the
term "agnostic" promoted by Bertrand Russell in "Why I Am Not A Christian"?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Lee Story (lee@wang.com) Wang Laboratories, Inc.
            (this email address disappears 14 August;
 I may be reborn as lee@bostech.com or something similar in September)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:69 alt.atheism:14606
From: James Meritt <m23364@mwunix>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: relevance
Keywords: atheism
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:27:36 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean VA

In article <sbuckley.712446010@sfu.ca> sbuckley@sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
}  as i see it, a divinity is equally irrelevant in the lives of two people,
}one who is sure there is no god and the other who claims god is merely 
}irrelevant whether he exists or not.  as far as i see it, there is no
}relevant distinction between those two positions that would significantly
}affect the lives of those two hypothetical people.  so the distinction
}between the two positions appears moot.  please correct me if you're
}in one of these two positions and you think my perception is inaccurate.


In the case of one who is sure that there is no god, actions might be taken
against those who espouse an opposing view in the not-uncommon attempt be
people to counter that which is against them/what they see as the truth.

In the case of one who sees it as an irrelevant question, I do not see a reason
to take any action.

IS that a valid distinction?


Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:65 alt.atheism:14595
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Without God, but generally enjoying the hell out of everything
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 11:21:40 BST
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

Stephen Buckley <sbuckley@sfu.ca> writes:
> "Johan A. Grape" <jgrape@coos.dartmouth.edu> writes:
> >I guess the fundamental flaw I find in every religion I encounter
> >is the "not one of us" mentality.
> 
>   do you mean the exclusivity of religions that discriminate and oppress
> those that aren't in their flock?

It's not just a property of religions.  People in general seem to suffer from
it; but then, perhaps that's because most people are brought up to be
religious.

Certainly even atheists are subject to the idiocy of the "not one of us"
mentality, especially in its most common form, "nationalism".


mathew
-- 
"He is heterosexual.  It is a sort of breath of fresh air, isn't it?  The
 indecent assault, an expression of his sexuality." -- Judge Geoffrey Jones

Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:87 alt.atheism:14684
From: Warwick Allison <warwick@cs.uq.oz.au>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: X-webster on "Atheist", "Agnostic", "Deist", etc.
Summary: Definitions
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:19:21 GMT
Reply-To: eros.uknet.ac.uk@natalie.ibmpcug.co.uk
Distribution: world

I'm not one to hold dictionary definitions as holy ;-), but for the
sake of information:

athe.ist \'a--the--*st\ \.a--the--'is-tik\ \-'is-ti-k(*-)le-\ n : one who 
   denies the existence of GodMINFIDEL: an ATHEIST is one who denies the 
   existence of God and rejects all religous faith and practice; an AGNOSTIC 
   withholds belief because he is unwilling to accept the evidence of 
   revelation and spiritual experience; DEIST rejects the conception of God as 
   an active ruler and guide known through revelation while believing in a 
   supreme being as creator of the universe; FREETHINKER suggests loss of 
   faith and a belief only in the rational and credible; UNBELIEVER implies 
   loss or lack of religious faith without suggesting a substitute for it; 
   INFIDEL usu. applies to one belonging to a faith (as the Muhammadan) other 
   than Christian or Jewish and commonly connotes an enemy of the true faith - 
   athe.is.tic aj SYN syn AGNOSTIC, DEIST, FREETHINKER, UNBELIEVER,



Note the "loss" in FREETHINKER.  I don't get the "without suggesting a
substitute for it" clause in UNBELIEVER though!!?!?!!!?


--
Warwick
--
  _-_|\      warwick@cs.uq.oz.au            /Disclaimer:
 /     * <-- Computer Science Department,  /  
 \_.-._/     University of Queensland,    /      void (if removed)
      v      Brisbane, Australia.        /  
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:9 alt.atheism:14403
From: Matthew Spears <mspears@sfu.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: atheism
Summary: Openmindedness
Keywords: atheism
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:52:18 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

  I am not a fundamentalist christian, or even a christian at all.  (Gave it
up in childhood), but I dislike the close-mindedness of many atheists.  Yes,
there is a lot of hypocrisy in Christianity, but there is a lot of good as
well.  What I dislike about Churches in general is that they tend to say "THIS
is the truth, take it or leave it."  But I still find that there is a lot
of Truth in what they say. 
 
  If you have a view of the universe, say it, backing it up as best you can. 
But this cynical denigration of everything religious does no one any good, 
least of all you.

Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:10 alt.atheism:14421
From: Elliott Mitchell <mitcheec@ctrvx1.vanderbilt.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Sowing the seeds on Xian BBSs
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:06:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Vanderbilt University

It is fun to log into the BBSs and give the resident bigots hell.  But one 
does that in the full faith and assurance that the people who frequent that 
medium are dweebs with pocket protectors who shrink at the sight of 
daylight and can relate much better to MS-DOS than to REAL-FOLKS.  
Sometimes I find myself worrying that they might snap and come after me 
with a uzi (there seems to be a serious intersection of gun nuts and god 
nuts on the BBSs).

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
Elliott Mitchell
 Peabody College at Vanderbilt University
 Nashville, Tenn. Home of the Grand Ole Opry
 IN: mitcheec@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu | BN: MITCHEEC@VUCTRVAX
 FN: p7.F41.N116.Z1.fidonet.org     | VOX:(615) 322-8520
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:64 alt.atheism:14594
From: Gavin McKay <gav@asgserver.canberra.edu.au>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Christian Campaigns
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 23:42:27 GMT
Distribution: alt.atheism.moderated
Organization: University of Canberra

First of all, congratulations to the people involved in setting up this
newsgroup!

For the past year, there has been a Christian Group on campus doing
their best to 'save us all'.  One method they have been using is a heavy
poster/billboard campaign.  There two major messages have been:

	"Know Christ.
	 Know Life."
and
	"No Christ.
	 No Life."
which I find rather insulting, for the simple reason that I interpret this as
without Christ, there can be no fulfillment in your life, and have a nice day.

At first, I was bemused.  Then annoyed.  Luckily, the God of Inspiration
(known on this mortal world as 'Liquid Paper') inspired one young artist
to modify the messages somewhat to:

	"Know Chris.
	 Know Life."
and ditto for the other one.

Spurred on by the artist (I assume it was either 'Chris', or his rather
lovestruck girlfriend) we decided to start our own poster campaign.  We
printed out our own messages, which read:

	"Know Christ?
	 No Way!"
and others with the same general theme, and clambered all over our
Refectory at ridiculous hours of the night (well, it was about 9pm)
placing them in places that gave great visual access, but shocking
physical access.

Naturally, the Christian Group involved were a tad put out.  Ooops.  Sorry
guys.

While not exactly a decisive or very brave step on our part, we still had
fun, and got the point across that noone should be forcing any ideals down
anyone's throats, as I believe such an active poster campaign was designed
to achieve.

Just another very minor battle in the Refectory battleground!

Gav.

P.S.	I would have thought the money involved in such a venture could have
	been put to much better use elsewhere.

-- 
Gavin McKay				E-Mail: gav@asgserver.canberra.edu.au
Administrative Systems Group		Phone : +61 (06) 201 2683
University of Canberra			Mail  : PO Box 1 BELCONNEN ACT 2616
"Every complex problem has a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:52 alt.atheism:14582
From: Stephen Buckley <sbuckley@sfu.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: atheism
Keywords: atheism
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:44:40 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

Ben Hekster <heksterb@cs.utwente.nl> writes:

>A/theists of any sort who say they "know for sure that..." regardless
>of whatever evidence or arguments are presented to them, are being
>closed-minded.  However, I think you will find that many atheists have
>very seriously considered the possibility that there may be a god, and
>are still very much open to any evidence that there is a god.  Few
>theists that I know would *ever* allow themselves to seriously entertain
>such the possibility that their god/gods does/do not exist (that would
>be blasphemous!).  I, for one, would be first in line every Sunday/Sabbath/
>Ramadan/whatever, ready to prostrate myself before any god that would
>bother to make Itself known to me.

  i agree that many atheists [including many i know] always entertain
the possibility of more data regarding the existence of god.  i do not
entertain the possibility that god doesn't exist not because it would
be blasphemous but because of a rational observation of his presence in
my life.  and the christian answer to your last sentence is that jesus
did make himself known to us. [no big surprise to you there i guess. :) ]

Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:19 alt.atheism:14475
From: Josh Adams <lambada.oit.unc.edu!Josh.Adams@mcnc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: atheism
Keywords: atheism
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:08:33 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <1992Jul28.063335.8435@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mtrevor@nyx.cs.du.edu (Matthew Trevor) writes:
>
>I was brought up in a strong catholic household, and have only just
>recently "converted" (if you will) to atheism. I agree that religion can
>have some important things to say, but my belief is that many christian
>religions are too interested in enforcing Christ's divinity, and not as
>involved with spreading what he *said*. I personally hold to many of
>Christ's teachings, yet fail to see why he needs to be "divine" for his
>words to have any relevance.
>
>Matthew T.

Sounds like you might be agnostic...

Josh

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:73 alt.atheism:14624
From: Chris Lee <czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: What's the point?
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:24:32 GMT
Reply-To: Chris Lee <czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com>
Distribution: world
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


In article <33779@cbmvax.commodore.com> Robert Weir - Manuals <weir@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com> writes:
>
>
>As I understand it, atheism is the denial of god's existance.

Bollocks! For most atheists, is is the absence of belief in any deity.
If you tell me that your god exists, I don't really care, because to
me it's a figment of your imagination. But most believers (except fundies)
don't try and force their delusions on other people. If you expect me
to believe in your god, YOU have to prove it to me. Because YOU are the
one making the assertion.

>
>But to get to this point you need to first understand what god is, 
>or at least understand what other people mean when they say "god" and
>then reject that god does exist. This seems rather pointless. By
>denying the existance of something, don't you validate its existance
>and then say simply, "Oh, by-the-by, that which I formally held to
>be true, I now hold as false? Denial is a weak argument.
>
>How can an atheist point of view be argued?
>

Do you deny the existance of the easter bunny? Or do you just see no
reason to believe in it?

>
>
>RSW

Chris Lee
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:27 alt.atheism:14483
From: "Andrew J. Gray" <agray@starconn.com>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: atheism
Keywords: atheism
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:45:15 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Starnet-Public Access UNIX--Los Altos, CA  415-949-3133


In article <mspears.712252338@sfu.ca> mspears@sfu.ca (Matthew Spears) writes:
>... I dislike the close-mindedness of many atheists.  Yes,
> 
>  If you have a view of the universe, say it, backing it up as best you can. 
>But this cynical denigration of everything religious does no one any good, 
>least of all you.

Then I propose we define a new term - "non-theist" (actually, what I've
been calling myself for years) as someone who believes Deity is
irrelevant.  This would distinguish us from the "anti-theists" that 
Mr. Spears (and, I imagine, most of the rest of us) have grown tired of.

The whole concept of defining "atheist" and "agnostic" is a compltete
waste anyhow, since no one (not even the OED) can create a one-word term
for an entire system of belief. 

Andrew Gray    agray@starconn.com    agray@spectrox.saigon.com
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:26 alt.atheism:14482
From: st1el@rosie.uh.edu (Jensen, Douglas J.)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Herro...
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 04:52:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Houston

While I myself do not classify myself as an Atheist, I do welcome the addition
of this usegroup for two reasons...

1]  The majority of Atheists has better thought-out ideas and were more in
    touch with the universe than the Bible-Thumpers I've met.

2]  Freedom of Speech!  :)

Enjoy,

---Doug

Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:32 alt.atheism:14504
From: James Meritt <m23364@mwunix>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Sowing the seeds on Xian BBSs
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 12:31:26 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean VA

In article <1992Jul28.193749.9277@urbana.mcd.mot.com> David Hammerslag <dhammers@urbana.mcd.mot.com> writes:
}In article <27JUL199216062426@ctrvx1.vanderbilt.edu>, Elliott Mitchell <mitcheec@ctrvx1.vanderbilt.edu> writes:
}>Sometimes I find myself worrying that they might snap and come after me 
}>with a uzi (there seems to be a serious intersection of gun nuts and god 
}>nuts on the BBSs).
}
}Funny, I always thought the same thing about atheists.

Interesting.  One might suspect that Elliott may be basing his statement
upon the numerous religious crusades, jihads,....  Upon what are you basing
you thought/expression?

I suspect prejudice alone.


Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:40 alt.atheism:14524
From: David Macalpine <david@metz.une.edu.au>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: atheism
Date: 29 Jul 92 10:29:44 GMT
Reply-To: david@metz.une.edu.au
Distribution: world


From article <mspears.712252338@sfu.ca>, by mspears@sfu.ca (Matthew Spears):
> 
>   I am not a fundamentalist christian, or even a christian at all.  (Gave it
> up in childhood), but I dislike the close-mindedness of many atheists.  Yes,

Try reading the FAQ for this group, eh.

Regards,

David
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:7 alt.atheism:14348
From: bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu (Adam Trent Phillips)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: My "religous experience"....
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:33:07 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


	What can I say about my religous experience....


	I was brought up lutheran, and found out that Martin Luther
once said...

	that Jews should have..."all their cash and jewels and silver
and gold"....and he then wanted "that their synagogues or
schools be set on fire, that their houses be broken up and destroyed
....and they be put under a roof or stable like the gypsies.....in
mysery and captivity as they incessantly lament to God about us"...

	Keep in mind that it was NOT Hitler who said it first, it
was the founder of the Lutheran Church, Martin Luther. Then I hear
that these religous fanatics, mostly chri$tian, want to stir up
homophobia and anti-gay bigotry, hell the vatican said recently that
it is ok to try to make laws that discriminate against people because
of their sexual orientation.....

	I was once a lutheran, but now I take a look at all of this 
and then hear of them say....

	"God loves you"....

	If this is love, I wonder what hate is !


	<pardon any typos>
-- 
"Speak to me in many voices, make them all sound like one.
 Let me see your sacred mysteries, reveal to me the unknown tounge."--B.O.C.
A. Trent Phillips     |personal E-mail:bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu
alias: White Rook     |   NWROC E-mail:aphillip@heartland.bradley.edu
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:15 alt.atheism:14471
From: Phillip Rzewski <kutcha@lachesis.acm.rpi.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: atheism
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 11:02:21 -0400
Distribution: world

In article <mspears.712252338@sfu.ca> mspears@sfu.ca (Matthew Spears) writes:
>  I am not a fundamentalist christian, or even a christian at all.  (Gave it
>up in childhood), but I dislike the close-mindedness of many atheists.  Yes,
>there is a lot of hypocrisy in Christianity, but there is a lot of good as
>well.  What I dislike about Churches in general is that they tend to say "THIS
>is the truth, take it or leave it."  But I still find that there is a lot
>of Truth in what they say. 

    Strange. I would think saying "This is the truth, take it or leave it" is
one of the more civilized methods churches could adopt. For example, there is
a woman here who I work with who goes out with members of her church once a
week to accost people on the street, tell them the "truth", and try to talk
them into going to their church.

    Then later in the same week some Muslim religious group was putting little
pamphlets on people's windshields in hope of spreading _their_ "truth". When
she came across it she came stomping up to the office, as offended as if
someone just burnt a cross on her lawn. Her claim was that she "hated it when
people force their ideas on her and then run".

    _THIS_ is the kind of inconsistency that led me to atheism.

--
   Phillip Andrew Rzewski                      Internet: kutcha@acm.rpi.edu
   "I was very let down with the budget. I was expecting a one-million quid
      handout. I was very disappointed. It was the government's fault."
                            --- Mark E. Smith
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:58 alt.atheism:14588
From: MARK DOWE <dowe@ace.acadiau.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated,alt.atheism
Subject: It's just my opinion...
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:29:04 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Acadia University

But I find it impossible to believe in anything without a shred of credible
evidence. What I really think is a shame is that so many children are fed a 
religious diet before they have had the chance to learn how to think, and
thus are capable of making thier own decisions about the existence of gods.
Xref: sparky alt.atheism.moderated:34 alt.atheism:14510