HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dabrowski@rz-berlin.mpg.de (Jarek Dabrowski)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Brainwashing (was Re: IQ and religious belief)
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:15:38 +0100
Organization: Rechenzentrum MPG Berlin

In <graham.702531505@bizet> Graham Matthews surrenders unconditionally:

-Jarek:
>>Could you please list your arguments? I will then compare them to the
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>"I killed you with my knife" example (which you deleted) [and which
>>pointed to a severe logical fallacy which Graham often uses to "refute" 
>>arguments of other people]. Good luck.
-Graham: 
> No thanks - meaningful discussion with you is not possible.
  ^^^^^^^^^
>
All is clear now. Thanks again, Graham. This note explains many things:

a) Why you "took me to sword" once and you dropped out after my first
   reply: You wanted to show in a meaningful way that I am stupid, but 
   it turned out to be impossible for you, if only because it was easy 
   to show that your arguments work against you. So you retreated;
b) Why (repeatedly) in the same post in which you deleted my answers to
   your questions you asked these questions again and then asked me why 
   I hadn't replied: A meaningful discussion is only when Graham has no
   particular problems to deal with the opponent's arguments. It's thus
   Graham opponent's responsiblilty to make sure that his argumentation 
   is easy to refute within Graham's pattern of thinking;
c) Why, after you'd been defeated in the "sword duel" and the "Godless 
   creation" threads, you mentioned Jarek only in the context of "don't
   read Jarek" and why, in spite of my provocations, during our further 
   clashes you never went beyond a courtious exchange of flames. 
                               [Original papers available upon request]

I can't FORCE you to admit that you're wrong. But you help me when you
refuse even to list your arguments - actually, there are no arguments
you can succesfully use against me, and you know that. Thanks, Graham.
Thanks for your support. You have been very helpfull. Thanks again. I
accept your... well, your silence (or your empty words which mean just
silence). Please be consequent and to surrender to Allison as well.

> Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
> Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
>
Hence my words are meaningless and you're immune. A good logo, sir.


Best wishes of a sharp T.V. display,
                                     Jarek
------------------------------------------------------
 .-----.    dabrowski@fhi-berlin.mpg.dbp.de
 `-> <-'           (Jarek Dabrowski)
I WANT DAN BREDY BACK TO THE NET
From: sue%miracle@merk.com (The Dragon Queen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: And the score is.....
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 17:28:00 EST
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

For those of you who, like me, have been avidly following the flame
wars and such, I decided to do some counting.....


TOP 5 POSTERS IN REC.ORG.MENSA

These are the 5 people who have posted the most articles, regardless
of content, within the last 200 postings.  This may be useful to those
of you with kill files..... :-)

So, without further ado.....


Okay, in 5th and 4th place, we have Phil Hill and Brian McBean, both with
10 postings each.

In 3rd place, with 11 postings, is David O'Hunt.

In 2nd place, with a total of 36 postings, is the infamous Mike Steiner.

And, in 1st place, with a record total of 43 postings, is (you guessed it!):
Scott Tai.  (Somehow I thought his total would be higher, though!)





(For those of you who hate seeing bandwidth wasted.....)


---
|	  _\|/_          |This posting compliments of The Dragon Queen|
|	 /     \         |                                            |
|      	| O   O |        | Any imaginative suggestions about what can |
|__ooo__|___ ___|__ooo__ | be writen in this box are welcome at:      |
|  UUU      U      UUU   |           sue%miracle@merk.com             |
Xref: sparky rec.org.mensa:3056 alt.atheism:8319
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Monday, 13 Apr 1992 10:00:42 EDT
From: John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Brainwashing (was Re: IQ and religious belief)
 <92099.100017J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> <1992Apr10.090046.2412@mac.cc.macalstr.edu>

In article <1992Apr10.090046.2412@mac.cc.macalstr.edu>,
amitchell@mac.cc.macalstr.edu says:
>
>In article <92099.100017J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A.
>Johnson)
>writes:
>>
>> If you are going the dictionary route, better use the OED rather than
>> Webster's.  But Graham is not asking what the dictionary means by
>> 'belief' and 'assumption,' but what YOU mean.  You've put your finger
>> right on the important connotative difference for us:  assumptions are
>> much more tentative and subject to revision than beliefs.
>> In our search for rationality, Graham and I attempt to remain as
>> open as possible to intellectual reconsideration by employing
>> assumptions rather than beliefs.
>
>I know Graham is asking what *I* mean, and that's why I'm trying to be REALLY
>careful and taking a long time to do this.  I'm trying to figure out EXACTLY
>what I mean when I use the two terms.  Another difference I'm finding is that
>I
>tend to make assumptions about things that can be proven, while what I call my
>beliefs are usually about things that can't be proven.  For example, I don't
>think it's possible to actually PROVE that 1+1=2, but I wholeheartedly believe
>it, and make many assumptions that are based on that belief.

I see neither assumptions nor beliefs as "provable."  I reserve the
word "proof" for the derivation of consequences within a mathematical
or other formal logical system.  Any formal system contains some
starting points (axioms, assumptions) which are simply posited in order
to get on with things.

If you wanted to "prove" or "disprove" one of these starting points,
you would have to do so only within the context of a larger formal
system.  Of course that system would have its own starting points,
so engaging in this activity is regressive.  Perhaps not infinitely
regressive; some philosophers and psychologists have attempted to
uncover the most primitive, fundamental assumptions underlying all
thinking.  Whether or not they have been successful is another question.
>
>> Indeed.  I think it is better to say that Graham and I DEFINE beliefs as
>> irrational [or nonrational]
>
>Yes, I think so as well, but in the past Graham has said that he *believes*
>all
>beliefs are irrational.  Unfortunately, I can't pull up the information any
>more because this newsgroup has been almost *completely* deleted by the       r
>Director
>of Computing Services (AAARGH!).  As I said, it just boils down to sticky
>semantics.
>
Graham neither stated nor tended to state that he *believed* that all
beliefs are irrational.  That phrase was your own creation.  Trust me.
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/T/ Cattell Culture Fair Test
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:18:08 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

David O Hunt <dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>>I'm curious why the Cattell score required is significantly higher 
>>( > 15 points) than for any other IQ tests.

>Could it possibly be that the scales are different?  Just perchance????

You tell me; I'm asking.  (Didn't you criticize me earlier for posting
'opinions not supported by fact' to this newsgroup?)

---------
Scott Tai
From: Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Pub Flubs
Date: 15 Apr 92 16:53:23 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Claris Corporation

I thought that some people might get a chuckle out of the following items
that were taken from various technical and user publications:

 Most printers have a specific format or language that it
 expects all the files sent to it to be in.
 
 Choose the number of the option you want to choose.
 
 Type 4 to see what 4 does.
 
 This section spans the full scope of commercial introduction,
 volume production, and transition through product termination
 and cessation of product support.
Xref: sparky rec.org.mensa:2986 alt.atheism:8264
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Brainwashing (was Re: IQ and religious belief)
Date: 10 Apr 92 23:33:49 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <1992Apr6.045029.6227@hobbes.kzoo.edu>, k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Josh
N. Vander Berg) writes:
> 
> In article <graham.702531505@bizet> graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
writes:
> >
> >Jarek:
> >>Could you please list your arguments? I will then compare them to the
> >>"I killed you with my knife" example (which you deleted). Good luck.
> >
> >No thanks - meaningful discussion with you is not possible.
> 
> Yes, you do appear to have a rather hard time winning an argument, don't you?

Anyone who has had an argument chain with Jarek knows that it's nearly
a full time job trying to follow his logical twists and constant
references to old emails, Jarek FAQ lists, hidden meanings in sub titles
and all kinds of rat nests.

I personally believe that if someone has a clear idea, he or she is
able to present it clearly. Otherwise they are just trying to cover
any possible gaps in their though.

Cheers,
Kent
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Issac Asimov
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:53:47 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Tim W Smith writes about "Re: Issac Asimov" to All  [12 Apr 92 12:23]

> After Asimov wrote that, he rejoined Mensa and remained a member until a
> year or two before his death, when he ceased his membership (because of his
> ill health) in virtually every club to which he belonged.  The quote you
> so graciously provided was about the early days of Mensa when we did have
> some members who were as Asimov described.  Mensa, as has its membership,

TWS>  Something doesn't make sense here. "Asimov Laughs Again" has 
TWS> a 1992 copyright, although much of it seems to be earlier material. 
TWS> If what Asimov said was really from 15 or 20 years ago, does 
TWS> anyone know why he included it in this book? Anyone reading "Asimov 
TWS> Laughs Again" is going to get the impression that his final word 
TWS> on Mensa was negative. Any idea why he did this? 

Probably because it is a collection of previously-written works.  By 1992, Asimov
wasn't in any shape to be editing his old work, and he certainly wasn't able
to write anything at all other than his editorials for his magazine (this information
comes from _Locus_).  I suspect that _Asimov Laughs again_ was published for
the specific purpose of generating royalties for his estate to benefit Janet
after he passed away.

The fact is that he did join Mensa in its early days, he resigned in the mid
1960s, and rejoined in the early to mid 1970s, and remained a member until about
1990.  During the 1970s-1990 time frame, he was international vice president
(an honorary position) and spoke at many Mensa functions, especially Regional
Gatherings held by the New York City group.  I know for a fact that he spoke
at the1978 RG because I was in the audience; he also spent the entire day there,
chatting with the other attendees.  I know quite a number of people who attended
the 1979 RG in New York who said that he spoke there also.  BTW, the talk that
he gave at the 78 RG (Memorial Day weekend) was printed as an essay, almost
verbatim--including the same personal anecdote that he used to introduce it--in
the Feb 79 issue of _Fantasy and Science Fiction_.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller)
Subject: Re: mrmrks and beating a dead horse ...
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 15:58:41 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <14131@claris.com> Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>In article <1992Apr2.182459.11365@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>> 
>> You haven't said which, if any, statements are unsupporting.  And, I see
>> you didn't try to deny that MENSA discriminates...
>
>OK.  MENSA DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE.  There.  I said it. BTW, many others
>have also said it.


WHAT??  Mensa does too discriminate.  I discriminate every day myself.
Why does "discrimination" have to be a dirty deal?  Clubs for
people with red hair discriminate.  Scratch bowling leagues
discriminate.  Mensa discriminates.  I discriminate when I hire
someone (but not on factors on which it is illegal to discriminate).
Discrimination in and of itself is not wrong.  Some people discriminate
in ways with which one may not agree - and governments may make laws
regarding some of these things - but this does not mean I cannot 
apply my judgement and discriminate when it comes to the many choices in 
my life.

In fact, I challenge anyone to tell me how I can conduct my life
WITHOUT discriminating.  

To Scott:  why does Mensa bother you?  You don't have to like the
club, you don't have to join.  I don't like new-nazis but I don't
hang around their offices or bulleting boards telling them so.
Of course it is probably true that I might get the shit beat out
of me if I *did*, whereas it is relatively safe to tell off a bunch
of nerds...  :-)

From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
From: zack@shorty.cs.wisc.edu (Zack Xu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Unbelievable Jump in GRE Score
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:36:43 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.


    On 3/25's Wall Street Journal, there's a front-page article about
a case where a family sued ETS (Educational Testing Service which makes
all the standardized tests, e.g. SAT, GRE).

    Here's the story.  A high-school guy in New Jersey took his first
SAT in May of 1990(?), he only got 660 as the combined score.  Then
he took SAT again in November, and he scored 400 more points, around
1050.  But ETS refused to release his score and suspected he somehow
cheated the second time.  Their only reason for suspicion: it's not
plausible for someone's score to jump 400 more points.  The article 
also reported that every year there are about 100 people whose SAT scores
are refused to be released due to a jump of 350 points or more.  For
more details, please read the newspaper article.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

    My question is:  have any of you had such an experience?  like score
> 350 points on an ETS exam than the previous time you took it.  What
happened?  Did they release your score, or offered to give you a full
refund.  Does ETS has this rule that one's score shall not be released if
(s)he scored 350 points lower the previous time?  

    If they do have this rule, is there a time limit?  I'd think it's
perfectly possible for one's score to jump > 350 points after > 1 year. 

    Any comments on this??  

    Feel free to send me emails on this.  I am interested to hear about
the score difference, not the absolute scores, so you can tell me. :)


                                                        -Zack
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: bkwg0457@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Whitlock)
Subject: What about ACT and GRE scores?
Summary: Are ACT and GRE scores acceptable for membership into Mensa?
Keywords: ACT and GRE
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 17:36:42 GMT

Ok, I read that SAT scores can be used to satisfy the entrance requirement
for Mensa.  What about ACT and GRE scores?  Are either one of these
acceptable for admission?


Brent Whitlock
whitlock@logos.vlsi.uiuc.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller)
Subject: Re: Isaac Asimov
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 04:58:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <2199.29E7AB47@kennel.FIDONET.ORG> Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner) writes:
>
>Sue Miller writes about "Re: Isaac Asimov" to All  [11 Apr 92 13:14]
>
>SM> Hmmm, sometimes we all behave this way. Anyway I like to have 
>SM> a few pompous plonkers around, it's fun to take the piss out 
>SM> of them. And vice versa...
>
>Yes, it is sometimes fun to do that.  But, sometimes they are so pompus that
>they don't even get it that they're the buts of the plonking.
> 

But that's the very FUNNEST part!  I recently worked with a guy a bit
like this, and I really liked him, but he was pretty full of himself
as well as being a really authoritarian type.  We hacked him pretty
good, and it was so much fun.  He liked it too, after he got over
it.  I think we unstuck a couple of his valves.  :-)

I should say that I myself have been hacked like this (repeatedly),
and it was more valuable than most of my college education.  Even
my 5yo has got me on taking life too seriously.  One day a few
months ago I was getting all worked up over being late for something
(who knows what) because I couldn't find my dang car keys.  She
grinned devilishly and said "Look out!  Mom's gonna SCREAM!"
We almost died laughing.
From: Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/T/ Tai and Lack of Fraud
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:44:46 GMT
Organization: Claris Corporation

In article <1992Apr5.064157.24151@uwm.edu>, radcliff@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David G Radcliffe) writes:
> 
> dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes:
> 
> 	 [Much deleted]
> 
> : I think it _is_ racist.  He's implying that minorities can't score equally on
> : tests without "special allowances".  That implies that minorities _can't_
> : equal whites - an implication that _I_ find repugnant!
> 
> I don't think you understand.  The argument is that a minority person
> will on average score lower on an IQ test than a white person with 
> equal intelligence.  So, the tests will generally underestimate the
> intelligence of minorities.  This effect is allegedly due to cultural
> biases in the test.
> 
> The SAT test is designed to predict college achievement.  Suppose,
> hypothetically, that blacks with a score of 1100 performed better in 
> college than whites who scored 1100.  This would indicate that the
> SAT underpredicts the achievement of blacks.  In other words, the 
> test would be biased against blacks.  This would in no way imply
> that blacks are incapable of doing as well as whites on the SAT.
> 
> The PC folks insist that these tests are strongly and intentionally
> biased against minorities.  The claim certainly is debatable, but I
> fail to see why it is racist.  It would be nice if people would present
> evidence to support their positions rather than exchanging insults
> and accusations.

However, that is not what Tai is claiming.  He said that minorities can't do
as well on those tests as caucasions, because of (among other things) genetics.
He said that they inherently can't do as well.  That is what makes his statements
racist.  You are right in one respect, though; it would be nice if Tai would
present evidence to support his positions rather than flinging insults and
accusations.
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/T/T/T/ mrmrks and beating a dead horse ...
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:28:36 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes:

> Hey, Scott, I _am_ smarter than a lot of people.  A lot of my friends
> recognize this, my family recognizes this, heck, even most of my
> enemies recognize this.

No doubt.  The question remains:  Do you really believe that you're smarter
than 98% of the population?

---------
Scott Tai
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: suopanki@stekt.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki)
Subject: /T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/T/ makes me sick
Reply-to: suopanki@stekt.oulu.fi
Organization: Unixverstas Olutensin, Finlandia
Distribution: rec
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:37:56



I hate /T/
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Issac Asimov
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 00:10:12 -0500

Isaac Asimov <lecher@heaven.org B-)> wrote:

 > high-IQ people can be
 > just as stupid as low-IQ people--much more stupid, in
 > fact, because they think they are bright.  They tend to
 > be mind-proud, veiw themselves as a persecuted minority,
 > and are, in general, unbearable.
 >
 > The worst thing of all is that they are forever trying to
 > challenge each other, and I was a particular target.  The
 > young kids at Mensa were forever trying to shoot the old
 > man down, and I didn't want to play the game.  Eventually,
 > I simply resigned.

Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com comments:

 MS> The quote [ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith)] so graciously
 MS> provided was about the early days of Mensa when we did 
 MS> have some members who were as Asimov described.

 And we don't any more???  Sure we do.  I bet you've even met some.  But
 thankfully, they are a small minority, far fewer, at least in
 percentage, now than they were then.
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: MCAT scores?
Date: 15 Apr 92 04:07:36 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


David G Radcliffe writes about "Re: MCAT scores?" to All  [14 Apr 92 15:02]

DGR> My feeling is that IQ tests, SAT's, etc. test irrelevant skills

Irrelevant to what?
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/ Weekend Plans
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:15:48 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>I for one don't intend to spend my weekend posting articles about MENSA!
>Your plans may differ; however, I have a life.  I'd suggest everyone
>use this weekend for something besides writing more posts.  Surely there
>are more worthwhile things you can do with your time...

[zillions of other Scott Tai flames since then deleted]

Oh dear, it looks like Scott didn't get a life this weekend.  Maybe if we all
chip in, we can get Scott a life by next weekend.  Or at least buy him a clue.

-Mike