HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Date: 19 Aug 92 11:54:23 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

In article <18AUG199214361713@utkvx1.utk.edu>, takoosma@utkvx1.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug18.033717.13510@news.columbia.edu>, gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.
|> edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes...
|> >I really have to wonder if the "axe" in Black English Vernacular is really
|> >derived from _acsian_ or if it's just laziness in pronouncing "ask."
|> 
|> Whereas the "axe" in white dialects is the result of familiarity with Chaucer?
|> 
|> A lot of the features of Black English are also found in white Southern
|> dialects.  I haven't heard it, but my cohabitor (who has relatives there)
|> claims that everyone on the North Carolina Piedmont sounds black.

OOOooooohh!  This from someone in TENN-uh-see?  Your cohabitor needs to
sharpen his or her listening skills.

I was once standing in the office of someone from Oregon.  Another lady
came in to speak to us about some issue, and after it was resolved, I asked
her if she was from South Carolina.  She said that she was, and we had a 
brief discussion about places of origin and so forth.  After she left,
the first lady asked me how I knew she was from South Carolina, and I 
told her that she had a South Carolina accent.  She informed me that in
Oregon, "you're either southern or you're not".

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|Despite decades of market research, markets       |
|proliferate and there's no cure in sight.         |
+--------------------------------------------------+
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: The subjunctive
Date: 13 Aug 92 08:22:57 GMT
	<SLAGLE.92Aug11211548@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com>
	<BsvEqn.MrC@wpi.WPI.EDU>
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
In-reply-to: padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU's message of 12 Aug 92 12:30:23 GMT

In article <BsvEqn.MrC@wpi.WPI.EDU>, padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) writes:

> And exactly what are we saving the Queen from? ("Oh, no! The Queen's
> canoe is about to go over the falls! God, please save the Queen!!").
> What is the construction SUPPOSED to mean?

Well, I think it means, "(May) God (pretty please) save
the Queen (from marauders and natural disasters and the
Heartbreak of psoriasis and the likes of Lloyd George)."
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
From: scjones@thor.sdrc.com (Larry Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:44:06 GMT

In article <Bsvv1C.EwF@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, shair@barolo.cso.uiuc.edu (Bob Shair) writes:
>           The PS/2 8511 Color Display has far less components than the IBM      
>           8512, contributing to higher reliability for the customer.

Yes, that's obviously incorrect.  What they should of said is:

	The PS/2 8511 Color Display has alot less stuff inside than the IBM
	8512, so it don't break so much.

----
Larry Jones, SDRC, 2000 Eastman Dr., Milford, OH  45150-2789  513-576-2070
Domain: lawrence.jones@sdrc.com               IBMMAIL: USSDR7DR at IBMMAIL
Any game without push-ups, hits, burns or noogies is a sissy game. -- Calvin

[ This posting is donated to Dhanesh for appropriate dedication. ]
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Whose Ox?
Date: 16 Aug 92 23:13:26 GMT
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.

In article <1992Aug16.221455.14193@Princeton.EDU>,
roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.094945.18959@rose.com>,
>bob.blackburn@rose.com (bob blackburn) writes:
>>
>>Can anyone tell me the origin of "it depends on whose ox is 
>>being gored"?
>>
>>My dim recollection is that it's the conclusion of a fable 
>>or parable or folk tale or some such.
>
>I suspect it comes from the Biblical laws regarding property rights.
>These go into great detail about who owes whom what when somebody's ox
>is gored; and lots of general property laws are derived from the
>ox-goring discussion.  So in a way it's a synecdoche: using an example
>of someone beng damaged to stand for damages in general.


Well, I thought about this, too.  The "ox-goring" discussion to which
Roger refers is, I think, in Exodus, Chapter 21.  If you'll allow me
my King James, the "property rights" in question include:

     28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox
        shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but
        the owner of the ox shall be quit.

     29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past,
        and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept
        him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall
        be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

     30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for
        the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.

     31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter,
        according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.

And so on.  As you can see, in Exodus it is the ox that does the goring,
whereas the phrase that has come down to us -- as used/mentioned above by
Bob and Roger -- casts the poor beast as victim.  Synecdoche or not, the
gored ox is still a puzzle to me: speculation on its pedigree is welcome.


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to nine tenths of the law.]
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6650 sci.lang:6562
From: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Question about ASCII IPA
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:19:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Aug19.231944.28751
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of stu5s14@bcrka287.bnr.ca (James Cherry):
:I noticed in Tom Christiansen's post the following IPA symbols and his
:descriptions of them:
:
:    F) voiceless bilabial fricative
:    M) labio-dental nasal
:    V) voiced bilabial fricative
:
:Can someone give me examples of English words that these sounds are found
:in?  Because, I keep wondering:  what the hell is a voiceless, bilabial
:fricative?  The only sound I make trying to do this is a blowing sound
:that ends up blowing the front of my hair upwards (you know, that impatient
:gesture people sometimes make when they extend their bottom lip and blow).
:
:And, a labio-dental nasal sounds like a V to me.  And "voiced, bilabial
:fricative"?  Excuse me?  I don't understand.

Some of these don't exist in English.

The /V/ is the sound in Spanish "uva" /'u Va/ or cabe /'ka Ve/.  You can
think of it as a cross between a "b" and "v".  These things aren't too
hard to decode: use both lips (bilabial), blow air through without
stopping (fricative), and rattle your vocal cords (voiced).  Remove the
last trait for the /F/.  I'm sure there are some languages with an /F/ but 
I can't remember any right now.

I'm not sure of a good one for /M/, but you can decode it similarly:
use your teeth and your libs and nasalize it.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist
"Text processing has made it possible to right-justify any idea, even
one which cannot be justified on any other grounds."
                -- J. Finnegan, USC.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: euaneg@eua.ericsson.se (Nils-Erik.Gustafsson)
Subject: What ~did~ Don Quixote sit on?
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:28:11 GMT

cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:

>>>  so there we leave Don Quixote, sitting
>>>  on his ass, until this time next week."

>It sounds like an ignorant urban rumour to me, since Don Quixote
>didn't sit on a donkey. Being a knight he sat on his horse. Sancho was
>the donkey rider. I blame underfunding of the education system for the
>persistence of this thread :-)

I will promptly dig out the record I, as the 
original poster (not im-), quoted, but unless my 
memory is awfully flawed that is how the radio 
program ended.

Either the recording is a hoax or the BBC announcer 
simply made a mistake when signing off. (Or wanted
to make the joke!)

You are perfectly right about the Don riding a horse
and Sancho a donkey. That's how I remember the book,
even though it's been a very long time, and that's 
how I recall the statue in Madrid from a visit last
November.

Nils-Erik
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: chrisc@debra.dgbt.doc.ca (Chris Camfield)
Subject: Re: "Route"
Organization: Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:27:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.032735.6755@redsox.bsw.com> campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell) writes:
>
>I grew up in the Boston area and never heard "route" pronounced
>as though rhyming with "pout" until I began working in the computer
>industry.
>
>-- 
>Larry Campbell             The Boston Software Works, Inc., 120 Fulton Street
>campbell@redsox.bsw.com    Boston, Massachusetts 02109 (USA)

This is weird - the areas where people pronounce "route" as though
rhyming with "pout" seem to be rather jumbled.

I've always pronounced it so that it rhymes with "hoot", but then I
grew up in a family where both parents were originally English.  And I
am from Canada... but my roomate from Oshawa pronounced it to rhyme
with "pout".  *grumble grumble*

Maybe this is (generally) an east-west thing?  Obviously from what we
seen there will be exceptions either way...

-- 
"Even as we speak the dirty creature springs a nasty surprise" -- Split Enz
  __  __     __      __
 /   /_/ /  /_/ /\  /_/ /|/  aka Chris Camfield (chrisc@debra.dgbt.doc.ca)
/_/ / / /_ / / /_/ / / / /   Play Akropolis! Telnet to 143.229.1.27 6666
From: jjd@TEAK.CRAY.COM (Jeff Drummond)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: questions questions
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:22:45 GMT


In article <1992Aug18.040130.15303@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.143914.1820@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu> perry@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:
  [ other questions deleted ]
>>4) Finally, is it (still?) incorrect to pronounce the 't' in often?
>
>"Often" with the t is pompous and inappropriate for the language we speak.
>You don't pronounce the t in listen or soften, and besides.  If you pronounce
>the t, then the gag in Pirates of Penzance doesn't work.

Speak for yourself, please.  I pronounce the `t' in often and consider it
neither pompous nor inappropriate.  I also pronounce the `t' in eaten,
marten, shorten and whiten.

Maybe that explains why my acting career never got off the ground.

I suppose using four syllables for `vegetable' is not Phonetically Correct
either?  *Sigh*

>Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
>gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
>N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
>72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877

-Jeff    jjd@cray.com
--
"English has a vocabulary nearly twice the size of any other language."
-Charles Berlitz in _Native_Tongues_
From: eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)
Subject: Re: The subjunctive
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 01:30:25 GMT

I was a little slow in reacting to this one.  Still: better late than never.

In article <15rutrINNe6m@agate.berkeley.edu>, ted@physics1
      (Emory F. Bunn) writes:

> [...]

Well, what he wrote is no longer relevant.  The important thing is this:
according to my newsreader, this was the 10,000th item posted to
alt.usage.english.  (More precisely, the 10,000th item received at this
site.  Your mileage may vary, and so on.)  Should we institute a
prize?  Should we celebrate?  Perhaps we could just sit around and
reminisce about all the old friends and enemies who have disappeared
after fighting the good fight.  No, forget that last bit.  (Followups
to alt.lang.sci.n)  Still, I thought it was worth mentioning.

Peter
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
From: froggy@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Robyn McNamara)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a (sikth) question?
Organization: Monash General Access UNIX System
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:16:30 GMT

In article <frank2.21@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za> frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N) writes:
>Do people in country's other than South Africa have great difficulty 
>pronouncing the words *fiFth* and *siXth* correctly? These words are 
>commonly pronounced *fith* and *sikth* here.	
>

My husband - Australian-born of a New South Welshman and a Lancastrian -
pronounces these words "fith and sikth" if he's not taking care.  The
South African dialect sounds nothing like the Australian, at least, not
to me.  Is This Coincidence?

(Note: I will refrain from flaming Frank for the Apostrophe Sin he
commits in the first line of his post, but I hope with fervour that he
doesn't do it again.)

-- 
Robyn McNamara                                        The Cosmic Froggy
                     froggy@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
"Walk the lines of Nature's palm/Crossed with silver and with gold"-JT 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: amconn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: X-ray or X-Ray
Organization: University of Louisville
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 12:36:42 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.173218@cs.man.ac.uk>, aek@cs.man.ac.uk (Alan Knowles) writes:
> In article <1992Aug14.105203.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>, 
> amconn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
> 
> |> 
> |> It should be noted that X ray (no hyphen) is the noun form, X-ray is the
> |> adjective, and x-ray (no capital) is the verb, although the verb usage varies
> |> between x-ray and X-ray.
> |> 
> |> Connor/Castigat ridendo mores
> 
> Does anyone know the origin of the word codswallop?
> Is everyone familiar with its usage?
> 
> My OED says it is X-ray in verb and noun form. (Upper case X, hyphenated. No
> options. (Actually, I lie. It's the Oxford Paperback Dictionary (OPD?)) ;-}
> 
> ===========================================================================
> Dr. Alan Knowles, Department of Computer Science,
> The University of Manchester, Oxford Road, Manchester M13 9PL, UK
> 
> Tel:    +44 61 275 6185 
> Fax:    +44 61 275 6236
> 
> email address:-
>         aek@cs.man.ac.uk
> or (if the above fails to work):-
>         aek%cs.man.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
> ===========================================================================

Ignoring the codswallop, we may have here an obscure case of American English
vs. British English, as I just checked Webster's Collegiate Dictionary and it
agrees with my statement. However, it did state that X-ray is an alternative
noun form. Lighten up, Dr. Alan Knowles, and accept the fact that alternate
usages are not unknown.

Connor/Castigat ridendo mores
From: TSOS@uni-duesseldorf.de (Detlef Lannert)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Grammar"
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:14:30 GMT
Organization: Universitaetsrechenzentrum, Heinrich-Heine-Universitaet, Duesseldorf

In article <1992Aug21.025717.2319@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

   [a few kilobytes deleted]

>                  ... there's bound to be variation and, in a
>formal-speech sense, error.  To be sure, I wince when my colleague says
>that in a meeting, too; but I frankly don't care if he says it on the
>golf course or in the car.

I've been following this exchange with considerable (or, to be
frank, considerably diminishing) interest and intended not to add
my $.02 worth to the confusion. But this last paragraph I quoted
above seems to be crucial enough - though maybe not at first sight -
to risk a comment.

I would not even on a golf course [actually, I haven't been on one
for years ... but I assume I could imagine self in a public house
instead] nor in a car [in my Golf, for instance] resort to a
language that is - in my humble ears - 'wrong' or 'ungrammatical'.

In a relaxed atmosphere I might
     -  use colloquial terms,
     -  be negligent in my pronunciation,
     -  imitate other people or employ all sorts of strange language
        constructs just in an attempt to amuse my audience;
but I would always try to avoid 'errors', regardless of whether I
address a single person in private or two hundred in a lecture room.

I might well use a non-standard construct informally and avoid it
in other situations when I feel it is inappropriate. I'll *always*
avoid it if I feel that it's simply wrong because it (sort of)
hurts my feeling for the language - and presumably other people's
as well.

(Needless to say that I don't always succeed.)

Nor would I be likely to make *more* spelling mistakes in an
informal letter than in a formal one - except for being facetious.

But if I happen to screw up a sentence or a word in my native
language, I don't want any descriptive linguist being around
and adding this bloomer to their (?!) collection of "current usage"
just because I'm a native speaker and therefore never wrong.
(Disclaimer: Not all descriptive linguists would be so naive.)

Thus I can't follow you in your distinction between
standard-conforming formal language (which is 'correct' and in
conformance with the grammar books) and informal language which
violates the rules and is still correct.

A person's style will vary according to the situation and the
purpose of the communication, but his or her grammar won't vary
accordingly.

[A suggestion for usenet improvement: Introduce express threads
for postings containing 150 words or fewer.]
--
Detlef Lannert      DC3EK      E-Mail: tsos@rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
"Ab morgen wird gearbeitet."
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: TSOS@uni-duesseldorf.de (Detlef Lannert)
Subject: Re: The subjunctive
Organization: Universitaetsrechenzentrum, Heinrich-Heine-Universitaet, Duesseldorf
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:22:05 GMT

In article <BsvEqn.MrC@wpi.WPI.EDU> padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) writes:

>And exactly what are we saving the Queen from? ("Oh, no! The Queen's
>canoe is about to go over the falls! God, please save the Queen!!").
>What is the construction SUPPOSED to mean?

From her subjects, I've always thought. Or was it from the taxman?
Anyway, He has done a good job so far.

>
>Peter!
>
>(Forgive me for not knowing the proper terminology for "command form")

Oh, never mind, that word is not imperative to know.

--
Detlef Lannert      DC3EK      E-Mail: tsos@rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
"Ab morgen wird gearbeitet."
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: use of generic terms
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:57:44 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: CONVEX Realtime Development, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of bwalsh@math.rutgers.edu (Bertram Walsh):
:'You guys' has been used in the upper US Midwest to denote (or
:address) groups of persons of either or both sexes since time
:immemorial, i.e., since at least the early 1940s.

I checked when I was just up in Illinois and Wisconsin, and 
groups of girls routinely used "you guys" for each other.

They also shun past participles containing "u" (begun, drunk, ...).

:>I think y'all is a beautiful solution to this problem, and I'm even a
:>Yankee.
:
:Gee, on me "y'all" has an effect equivalent to that of the fingernails
:scraped against the blackboard.

Yes, it does for many of us.  Dialects different from our own bring out
cultural prejudices.  To a Northerner, a Southern dialect usually sounds
uneducated, even though it may not be.  To a Southerner, a Northern
dialect sounds stuck-up.   Accents from New York and New Jersey in
particular sound clipped and pushy.  Bostonian accents sound
pseudosophisticated.  Black English dialects often evoke highly negative
connotations.

Careful with that Yankee word: to a Southerner, it's anyone who speaks
without a drawl.  To a Midwesterner, it's often someone from New England.
To a Briton, it's anyone from the United States.   Quiz question of the
day:  what word for Southerners carries the same pejorative connotations
that Yankee does for Northerners?

--tom


-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist
	Zounds!  I was never so bethumped with words
	since I first called my brother's father dad.
			-- William Shakespeare, "King John"
From: segr@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Read)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Portmanteau words: Malapropism
Date: 17 Aug 92 10:50:51 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

In article <1992Aug15.214316.679@mala.bc.ca>, epp@mala.bc.cs writes:

>> 	malapropism	= mal + a propos 	ask Sheridan
>
>Not really a portmanteau either.  According to my dicitionary, "malapropism"
>is formed by adding the suffix "-ism" to "Malaprop", the name of Sheridan's
>character; "Malaprop" is formed by dropping the final syllable from the
>French "mal a propos".  On second thought, maybe this does count.  I've
>confused myself!  Help!

Malapropism can't really be a portmanteau word as it derives from a person's name
(albeit ficticious). Like Spoonerism (a very similar formation), Marxism etc. all
of which we accept as "proper" English. The fact that the name is an appocopation
of a French phrase is surely irrelevant, it's not named after the phrase but the
character.

In article <1992Aug16.121920.13101@athena.mit.edu>, dks@athena.mit.edu writes

>>A portmanteau word in the spirit of "guesstimate" is "absitively",
>>a blend of "absolutely" and "positively."
>
>Yes, except that no one takes "absitively" seriously whereas some people
>deliberately use "guesstimate" and expect to be understood.  Do you?

Sadly Dhanesh, some people seem to use portmanteau words and expect them to be
understood. Well, perhaps not he is a lecturer after all.

Simon Read.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: paul@clodii.Columbia.NCR.COM (Paul Fidler)
Subject: Re: pundette
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 21:15:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug9.122717.18436@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
>
>
>
>Just think of all the professions women have joined more recently.  We
>don't have (or feel the lack of) lawyeresses, doctoresses, biologettes, or
>mathematiciennes.  Thank God.

Oh! Awww!

Too bad you're not cross-posting this from alt.pagan; would've been awesome   
to see that sentence end with "Thank goddess"......


>Bonita Kale

...................................... Paul Fidler .................
"Please consult your physician         NCR Corporation, Columbia, SC
 before exercising with Lee Haney"     paul@clodII.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a (sikth) question?
Organization: Kalamazoo College
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:39:09 GMT

frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N) writes:
>Do people in country's other than South Africa have great difficulty 
>pronouncing the words *fiFth* and *siXth* correctly?

When I talk fast in my my typical-America Midwest (Michigan) accent, I
say "fith."  The end of the word "sixth" becomes a sussified slur that
makes it sound more like "six" than anything else.

I currently have difficulty pronouncing them, but that's only because
my boss says he'll smash my modem if I don't stop mumbling to myself.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy      Internet: k044477@kzoo.edu      AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 Sure, I subscribe to alt.sex, but I only read it for the articles...
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang