From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Let's Play StipU (1)
X-To: ADRIENNE REGARD
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:14:00 GMT

regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes...
AR> In article <1992Nov3.025548.21625@zooid.guild.org> Will Steeves <goid@zooid.
AR> d.org> writes:
AR> >regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes...
AR> >AR> Don and me:
AR> >
AR> >AR> Wait a minute.  *He* left it there.  I think the job falls to him.  Aft
AR> >                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
AR> >If "he left it there," then the woman conceivably didn't mind it being ther
AR> >since she didn't ask for precautions to be taken (I am assuming here, that
AR> >there were no accidents).  So the question comes up: Who should have the
AR> >responsibility for birth control?

AR> Both.

Fine.  I agree with you as well.


AR> And the man is not absolved of his responsibility by saying, "Honey, did you
AR> take your pill?"

Yes, but what if *neither* took precautions?  Would you still blame the man
and force him to be responsible?


AR> If they *both* took precautions, the chances of an unwanted pregnancy are
AR> fanishingly small.

Yes, but it happened to me, two years ago.  It might be "infinitesimal odds,"
but this does not sweep away the issues of those to whom it *does* happen to.


AR> >AR> Horseshit.  The man has *no* legal obligation until a child is born.
AR> >This is equivocation of the *highest* order... If the woman *chooses* to ke
AR> >the child, the man is ipso facto responsible from *that* moment, save for a
AR> >miscarriage or an untimely and unintented administration of RU-486...  (Sav

AR> Excuse me, but how exactly is the man responsible until a child is born?

Please re-read what I said.  I did not say that he was *literally* responsible
at the moment of her decision, it is basically the fact that unless the child
is born, he *will* be "officially" responsible *at the moment of birth*.  This
is why I say that he is responsible, for all intents and purposes.


AR> >Okay, fine, if you disagree with him, dig up some statistics showing how mu
AR> >child support is paid by men and how much by women, and try to prove him wr

AR> Scuse, please, but who is suggesting change here, and therefore who has the
AR> obligation to prove that change will not cause more harm than good?  Get a
AR> life, Will.                                                          ^^^^^
    ^^^^^^^^^^
(Considering that you attempted to upbraid me by declaring that I was demanding
to have the "right to insult" people, I somewhat believe that you have, on
numerous occasions, claimed this right for yourself!  BTW, when I said "By
rights, I should insult you," I was *not* attempting to claim the "right to
insult" ; I was using an English expression in order, ie., "By rights... I
ought to <fill in the blank>", to say "I'd ought to .... but I choose not to".)


Now let me address what you said, minus the insult...

Excuse me, please, but it was *not* myself or Don who made the claim that the
issue of men paying child support is connected with abortion being legal.  So
I say again - it falls upon the person who made that claim, to prove it.


AR> >So you would treat children as property, then?

AR> No, Will, I wouldn't.  I'm trying to explain to Don, and to you if you are
AR> interested, how the current laws work, and the kinds of barriers someone
AR> suggesting change to the existing laws might run into.  Now, if you *like*
AR> batting your head against a brick wall, be my guest.

Even "pro-choicers" batted their heads against walls for *decades*.  But finally
people started to listen.  If I am doomed to do the same until someone actually
listens, then so be it!

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * If it has feelings, it's not cooked enough.
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:48457 alt.abortion.inequity:5166 soc.men:19540