From: zing@wilber.rich.nt.com (Leon Z. Lee)
Subject: [repost] Texas State University Marching Band shoplifting
Organization: Northern Telecom, Inc.
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 22:15:11 GMT

In article <5zV=V==@engin.umich.edu> Michael F. Kamprath <kamprath@space-grant.sprl.umich.edu> writes:
>article <71967@cup.portal.com> , Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com writes:
>>There's a tiff over the predominantly black Texas Southern U Band that
>>went on a looting rampage in the electronics shopping district in Tokyo.
>>Seemed they all blatantly grabbed stuff and ran back to the bus, where
>>the cops were all waiting, and they had to leave most of the stuff in
[......]
>Before I think about commenting as you rquested, can you give more info on this,
or at least point me in the direction of getting more info.
>|Michael F. Kamprath                   | The University of Michigan  |
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Here are the postings I saved from Soc.culture.japan on this incident.
Granted that rumors about this incident is running amok. It would serve our
purpose for objective information if the US News Media would report this...
interesting how CNN, CBS, NBC, and ABC are silent over this outrage.
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Article: 7167 of soc.culture.japan
From: ikeda@vxcrna.cern.ch (IKEDA,M./EP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:07:00 GMT
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN

When I saw this article, at first I thought it must have been a joke!
It sounded very much like the Albanian soccer team that shoplifted
through the duty-free shops at the Rome airport.  So perhaps it was
another modified story from Mr. Robertson.  At least I hope it is a
joke!

In article <MS-C.724452715.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes...
>Approximately 120 members of the Texas Southern University marching band
>engaged in an act of mass shoplifting in the Akihabara shopping district on
>December 7.  They were accompanied in this charming activity by six school
>officials, including the university's vice president.

The vice president was caught shoplifting?  Poor students I can almost
understand, but university officials?  Another wonderful image of Americans
for the world...

-- Makoto


Article: 7166 of soc.culture.japan
From: jcliu@four-lab4.Berkeley.EDU (James C. Liu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^
Date: 16 Dec 1992 18:11:38 GMT
Organization: UC Berkeley Dept. of Nuclear Engineering

In article <1992Dec16.045427.5078@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.
Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:

>The reason that we in the USA are in such a state is because we have
>so many bozos like those TSU students who are willing to steal.  I'm not

The lawyers are the main problem.  Common criminals share basic animal
fear of punishment.  Lawyers mitigate that punishment.  Or at least they
delay, increase friction, increase costs of prosecuting someone.  On a
lighter note, we have around 350 or 400 inmates in CA on death row; 2
per day is all I ask! :-O

>Every single damn one of those *ssh*l*s should have been locked up and
>put on trial in a Japanese court.  Since none of them are diplomats,

They each should have had their little pinky fingers amputated (without
anaesthetic! 8-).

>I want those *ssh*l*s to know that, in some parts of the world, you can't
>sucker people as badly as you can sucker people in America.  When you 

Yooo, Dwight-san, we can always sic Rikiya-san on these guys once they
get back.  Then subject them to my caustic rendition of "SAY YES" 100
times over! :-)

Jaa, James
=======================================================================
James C. Liu |    KARAOKE Addict!     Karaoke: You're the STAR!!!!    |
             |    Wanna go? Need someone who sings worse than you do? |
             |    Know about a cool karaoke bar? send e-mail          |
=======================================================================


Article: 7176 of soc.culture.japan
From: acosta@smaug.Eng.Sun.COM (Joe Acosta)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^
Date: 16 Dec 1992 19:32:31 GMT
Organization: SunSoft Los Angeles

In article <1992Dec16.080806.13652@nmit.mt.nec.co.jp> d-itasak@nmit.mt.nec.co.jp (Daisaku Itasaka) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.045427.5078@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>	underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>
>>The shops in Japan do not yet have the incredible array of anti-theft
>>devices with which American stores are armed.
>
>I hear you can't see even one single pair of shoes in any shoe-shop
>in the US, they always show a shoe without the pair. That's because 
>if you put a shoe right beside the pair, they are bound to be stolen.
>Is this true? I have never seen such a shoe-shop in Japan. And I am
>proud of it if this is true.

Most stores in the US have theft detection devices but I have never
had this expierence before in any shoe store.  I live in Los Angeles
and if any stores were to do this sort of thing I would suspect LA
stores would be the first.  Fortunatly, this hasn't been the case 
for me or the stores that I have frequented.
>
>						 Daisaku Itasaka
>				      d-itasak@nmit.mt.nec.co.jp
>				NEC Microcomputer Technology Ltd.

			Joe Acosta
			SunSoft South



Article: 7179 of soc.culture.japan
From: jice@echo.asd.sgi.com (John Eisenman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:32:29 GMT

I heard on the news that most of the stolen items had been returned 
and that the university had agreed to pay for the remaining items.

--
John Eisenman (jice@sgi.com)
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems


Article: 7190 of soc.culture.japan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
From: dwwillia@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (David Williams)
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:47:42 GMT

In article <BzD73w.LDu@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:
>Flame on.
>
>I am made exceedingly angry at the thought that a person could be
>mollified by the fact that it was only a particular race whose
>reputation was damaged by these students.
>
>Flame off.
>
>Charlie R.
>
>-- 
>*****************************************************************************
>*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
>*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@koneko.shr.dec.com		    *
>*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *

Charles Richmond very kindly pointed out to me that the Japanese condemning
black people for the behavior of these students is racist and that it is wrong
for me to find comfort in the racism of others.  I see my error now.  So,
I am now officially mad as hell again.  Maybe a little wiser about racism too.

My purely emotional reaction to the news changed when I figured out that they
are black students.  In my effort to intelectualize the reason for the change
I decided that it must be because my reputation as a gaijin was not tarnished
to the degree I thought.  Now, I wonder if that was entirely it.  Being
a non-racist requires more than careful thought, it takes self-examination
and occasionally help from others.

However, I am not so politically correct that I can blame their behavior
entirely on the American system.  I believe that people can control
their own lives.  The best thing I learned when I was in Tokyo was what it
is like to be a minority.  For once in my life I held no prerogative.  Granted
this is just an eye opener, and not a lifetime of abuse by a hostile system,
but from it I judge each of them corrupt.  Descent people work for what they
want.  Intelligent people appreciate and respect foreign countries.  How
could 120 people be so ignorant of themselves and the country they were
visiting? 

David Williams                   Jisei to wa               Death poems 
dwwillia@silver.ucs.indiana.edu  sunawachi mayoi           are mere delusion--
death poem by Toko, died 1795    tada shinan.              death is death.






Article: 7195 of soc.culture.japan
From: kerkoveericj@bvc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:19:46 CST
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA

	After reading all of this news and coments about the TSU marching 
band, I felt I needed to at least put my $.02 in.  I must say, that I
was born and raised in urban Iowa, and I have not had much exposeure to 
large city shopping.  However, I can say that it bugs the hell out of me
to have "exploding ink" and "Alarm sound" tags on every artical I pick up.
Call me paranoid, but I can't stand to have clerks following me around, just
to make sure I don't do anything funny with the merchandice. 

	To be quite frank, I have never been to Japan, and I probably won't
until late next year, or later, and I turn to this Newsgroup as a source of
information to avoid any nasty suprises that I might encounter.  Most of 
what I here is bad, like the overcrowdedness, and the racism, but the one 
pleasant surprise, was that Japanese are more trusting, and rightfully so, 
of partons in their shops.  I thought it would be a real plus, to be able to 
look around in a store without eyes always on my back ( or hands, or 
pockets, etc..)  The fact that I am an American, really dosen't seem to 
help my situation just a whole lot, but because of this incident (yes, I am 
getting back to that) I wonder just how "trusted" I will be in a Japanese 
shop. White, black, or American, which ever group takes the most blame, it 
is unjustified.

	To wrap this up, those S**t H**ds (I needed to fill my quota of 
star words) who started this whole mess, should not be off the hook yet, 
just because the incident is over, doesn't mean everything is all right.  I 
think besides expulsion (if it was taken that far) they should write formal
appolgies to the both the police and the shop keepers.  Although this 
would not be a perfect solution, it might help.  I have a feeling, however 
that no one would go for it, and it's just a simple farm boys suggestion, 
but I guess you can't have them executed....right?


					Eric Kerkove -fin-
	

	Disclaimer: Some one screwed up the spelling in this post, it 
	wasn't me! Honest.


Article: 7204 of soc.culture.japan
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:55:51 -0500 
From: David O Hunt <bluelobster+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^

The actions taken by the TSU marching band are saddening and reprehensible.
Not only are they showing their own lack of morals, but by behaving in that
manner they lessen the reputation of the US (not that we have a sterling
one anyway, but this makes things worse).

David Hunt


Article: 7229 of soc.culture.japan
From: haniff@argon.berkeley.edu (Tariq M. Haniff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^
Date: 17 Dec 1992 15:43:53 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

I don't mean to try to justify what happened in Akihabara, but I think some
ugly behaviour of foreigners in Japan is perpetuated by the existing racism
against them.  What I mean is that there is a "damned if you do, damned if
you don't" attitude, so why not? This probably was not the case with TSU,
which sounds to me like the "opportunist" syndrome of the LA riots.

When I was in Tokyo, I saw a bunch of Navy guys jumping the rail on the 
subway. I thought to myself, "what a  bunch of a**h*les.  This is going 
to do a lot for the American rep."  But on the train, I heard them
complaining to each other about the racism they had faced there and how 
they were going to "get back at them."

When it came time to exit, they pretty much just walked right by 
the ticket puncher.  The puncher held his arm out to stop one of them,
but that fellopw merely shoved the arm out of his way and kept walking.

I thought to myself, "Well these guys are fed up with some of the BS
they have to put up with here, and this is a vent of some of that 
frustration."

The same phenomena exists in the employment of foreigners in Japanese
companies (those in the US included).  The management attitude:

"We don't want to give the gaijin too much responsibility since he/she
will just jump to another job after a little while here."

The employee attitude:

"I'm not going to kill myself for nothing.  Chances are I can't advance
here, so I better start looking somewhere else."

Flame if you wish.

-Tariq


Article: 7254 of soc.culture.japan
From: trent@cs.utexas.edu (Scott Ross Trent)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^
Date: 18 Dec 1992 10:04:07 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin

In article <1glumhINNi4d@agate.berkeley.edu> robohen@ocf.berkeley.edu (Henry Robertson) writes:
>In article <BzBorr.68C@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> dwwillia@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (David Williams) writes:
[TSU incident]
>>I wish that every last one of them would have been thrown in jail.  That would
>>have been their just fate in any other country that I can think of.
>
>The group would have met just such a fate, had they been Filipinos or
>Blacks.
 ^^^^^^

If I remember the article I read right, they were students from an all-black
school.  In their defense, I would like to point out that out of 120, the paper
said that only fewer than 20 actually did any shop lifting.  AND that the
rest of the group was quite upset with those who did the deed.

-- 
scott                             /* We're the United States Government, we   */
trent@cs.utexas.edu               /* don't do that kind of thing! -- Sneakers */


Article: 7259 of soc.culture.japan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
From: yoichi@carson.u.washington.edu (Yoichi Ii)
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:47:36 GMT

hiraga@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Yuzuru Hiraga) writes:
>My reaction to this incident is ---
>why all this overreaction? (on the US journalism, Japanese journalism,
>and on the net...)

I'm glad someone else feels this way, too.   After seeing Crispin-san's
initial news post, I was completely "flabbergasted" (to use another netter's
word).  The only "explanations" I was able to come up for such behavior
were silly ones, which prompted me to compile the dumb "Top 10" list.
The list may have been in bad taste (or just unfunny) in any case, but 
needless to say, as more and more serious posts continued, my face
got redder and redder!  So, I thank Hiraga-san: doumo doumo :-)  _o_

"Amerika" occupies a very large part of average Japanese life. Some images
of the US are contradictory.  Just watching the news boadcast from Japan
shows that along side the TSU band is the images of heroic and compassionate 
Marines clearing the way in Somalia.  I don't think one needs to worry too 
much about this _one_ incidence.

cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:
>>I am embarrassed for my fellow man and wish to convey to Japan and to the
>>Japanese people the apology of at least one American resident. It is a sad
>>comment on the quality of the education and the upbringing of these students,
>>that they behaved the way that they did.
>
>Admitting all sincerety in Mr. Richmond's remarks, I don't see why
>he has to give any apologies.  I find this rather interesting because
>it seems more to fit a Japanese kind of mentality (yes, I'm stereotyping).

It could be an indication of deep understanding of Japanese culture on
Richmond-san's part.  After all, the paragraph _is_ addressed toward
"Japan and to the Japanese people". :-)

>And why this single incident lead to gross generalization and dispute,
>I simply don't understand.

Again, doumo doumo for not understanding.

>FYI:
>Shoplifting in Japan, unfortunately, is not at all uncommon.
>And mob psychology, just as in this case, commonly provokes such action as 
>well.

I agree that "manbiki" is not uncommon in Japan, but I have never heard
of _mass_ shoplifting incidence.  IMO, "manbiki" by nature is a "clandestine" 
act whereas "mass" tend to be visible.  A Jp news program called it a 
"shuudan manbiki".  Is this a new word?

Yoichi Ii


Article: 7261 of soc.culture.japan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: Texas Southern University marching band in To^kyo^
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:24:04 GMT

trent@cs.utexas.edu (Scott Ross Trent) writes:
>If I remember the article I read right, they were students from an all-black
>school.  In their defense, I would like to point out that out of 120, the paper
>said that only fewer than 20 actually did any shop lifting.  AND that the
>rest of the group was quite upset with those who did the deed.


The latest UPI article says that between 28-66 of the "students" were not
enrolled in the school and were not members of the band. The numbers vary
according to the source. The school says that 12 students are being 
disciplined (did not state how).  Some simple logic tells you that at $400
per student there had to be 55 students involved. The $400 seems fairly
conservative to me. A portable CD player is about $150, as are most items
of that size. How many really big items is each student supposed to have
taken!? For that matter how many items each. I have trouble imagining that
the number of items per thief was much above a count of two.

The school has at least disbanded the band and reassigned the faculty members.

Charlie
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@koneko.shr.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *

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Well...this is just the news on USENET.  I picked up more info on the Japanese
language cable channel on this incident.  All I can say is that...it was not
pretty sight.  The Japanese was thoroughly unimpressed by this action of
these kids.  This situation can only strengthen stereotypes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Leon Z. Lee                        |  Only able to post to USENET.
 Global Meridian-1 Patch Project    |  Opinions posted are solely mine.
 Dallas Area Information Systems    |------------------------------------
 Northern Telecom Private Networks  |  Phone: (214) 684-4680   ESN-444