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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:02:51 EDT
Reply-To:     Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 2871
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                             THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                                 Issue # 2871

                          Thursday, August 13, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******

                           Blink Talk Digest # 682

                               Re: Nls And nfb
                         Re: SlimWare Window Bridge
                               Re: Jaws stuff
                               Re: Nls And Nfb
                              Re: Screen Reader
                              Re: Screen Reader
                              Re: Screen Reader
                              Re: Screen Reader
                              Re: Screen Reader
                              Re: Screen Reader


                                ******


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Subject: Re: Nls And nfb
From: Darrell.Shandrow@p0.f11.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Darrell Shandrow)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:2250/11.0 - Sullivan Radio Shac, Carlinville IL


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

to: gcampbel@csuchico

i have trouble with the cs type books because there are a lot of margin
notes.   how does one deal with that problem?

73

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Subject: Re: SlimWare Window Bridge
From: Darrell.Shandrow@p0.f11.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Darrell Shandrow)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:2250/11.0 - Sullivan Radio Shac, Carlinville IL


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

i was at both conventions and noticed some problems with windows.   at
the acb convention i got a pretty good demo of the product.   he had
everything set up in macros , it seemed, and made the applications look
like they are made for speech.   when i questioned him on how it worked
then he told me about the macros he used in wordscan to make that
package speak and how some of the text in the buttons and boxes is hard
to get to without using a macro.  i also was not offered a chance to
have a handson demo of it even though there was no one else at the table
at that time.

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Subject: Re: Jaws stuff
From: Darrell.Shandrow@p0.f11.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Darrell Shandrow)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:2250/11.0 - Sullivan Radio Shac, Carlinville IL


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

i have seen a case where the smart screen actually does mess up an
application's performance.

when running a morse code program, my friend tina's computer was unable
to generate the sounds properly.

now, she has both jaws 2.2 and 1.7 on her toshiba 1200.   under 1.7 it
worked fine.

under 2.2 it screws up.   she called hj and we found out that smart
screen can slow down the cpu significantly and this is deadly to a morse
code program which relies on timing to create the correct sounds at the
right speeds.

so, turning off smart screen altogether, i mean by going in and clearing
the frame monitor on insert r, solved that problem.

73

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Internet: Darrell.Shandrow@p0.f11.n2250.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Nls And Nfb
From: Dan.Kysor@f730.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Dan Kysor)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:203/730 - QST, Sacramento CA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 WF> What sort of books do you want? What do you think is missing from the
 WF> NLS  collection.
hi warren, first of all its nice to get a message from you, hear ya all the
time but never jump in.
i would like to see more books that are present in books stores and not
those titles present on old dusty shelves.
for example, it really ticks me off that nls will not release the
unabridged version of the stand.  they could have dian eilenberg simply
read the uncut section and release the recording, thats too logical i

know... dan
... "I SURE FEEL MORE LIKE NOW THAN I DID AWHILE AGO!"

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Internet: Dan.Kysor@f730.n203.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Screen Reader
From: Greg.Pike@f49.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Pike)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:272/49 - Calliope's Den, Garrison NY


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

David,

Again, in the interest of brevity, I won't quote your entire note
here.  Rather, I'll break it into parts and reply to the individual
points in seperate notes.  Here we go again.

 >the software package.  Why do you think this particular problem was
 >related
 >solely to IBM's Screen Reader?  Have you tried to duplicate the same
 >actions
 >under JAWS, Flipper, TinyTalk, VocalEyes, etc?  Do you know how any of
 >those
 >packages would perform under the same circumstances?
 DT>   Yes, as a matter of fact I have.  I have used and
 DT> currently use and train with on virtually every speech
 DT> software available for the IBM and clones.  How many
 DT> speech packages do you know how to use?

Well, what access packages I know how to use certainly isn't the
point, but just for the record, I've used JAWS, Flipper, and
OutSpoken for the Mac, as well as Screen Reader, of course, and I
have the latest version of TinyTalk and an old version of Artic
that I haven't had the chance to play with.  I think there's an old
copy of Vert around somewhere, too, but as I said earlier, it's
irrelevant.

The question was how do other packages perform under the same
circumstances, in particular I think Tracy was trying to use a 5250
emulator.  The emulator is an IBM product, so it's not surprising
that IBM provides explicit support for it in the base Screen Reader
package.  I suspect that other packages would handle it just like a
normal application, but since I don't use the emulator, I can't
test it to see.  Can you?  Back to the original question again, how
do other packages perform under the same circumstances?

/Greg

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Subject: Re: Screen Reader
From: Greg.Pike@f49.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Pike)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:272/49 - Calliope's Den, Garrison NY


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

David Tanner writes:

 DT>         As a programmer you certainly have a typical
 DT> attitude, " the programmer knows more about what the
 DT> user needs than the user knows about what they need. "
 DT> For a computer programmer Screen Reader may be just
 DT> great, but, for the non-computer person asked to learn
 DT> to use POWL in order to use other applications other
 DT> than the few environments IBM supplies it is certainly
 DT> not the answer.

I certainly don't decide what goes into the Screen Reader product.
There are roughly 50 blind beta testers for the software who
determine what should or should not be in the package.  We do have
blind programmers working on the product, as well as blind users
who work in typical computer-oriented jobs.  They all contribute to
how the final product will turn out.

I pulled a fresh copy of Screen Reader for DOS version 1.1 off the
shelf and reinstalled it on my home machine.  It comes with 18
profiles, most of which are either DOS specific, or specific to IBM
applications.  Beyond that, IBM provides profiles for Lotus 1-2-3,
DBase III, and WordPerfect.  The date on my package is 1989, three
years ago.  I called the "people in the know" to find out about
other profiles.  The new version of Screen Reader comes with more
profiles, but I haven't picked them up yet.  I also found out that
anyone who has registered Screen Reader has been getting regular
updates with new profiles along with the Screen Reader Newsletter.
Anyone who missed profiles that came out with the newsletter gets
an update diskette which contains all the new ones.

I was puzzled by your claim that since IBM doesn't provide a
specific profile for a software package, the package can't be
used.  You do realize that Screen Reader can be used without any of
the application specific profiles, don't you?  The profiles only
provide a few niceties for working with a specific package, all the
standard access functions are still available even if there's no
profile specifically for an application.

Nobody is asking the users of Screen Reader to learn the PAL
programming language.  It's not necessary to learn any programming
language to use Screen Reader.  That's why it comes with some
profiles, and other profiles get sent out with the newsletter.
Some people enjoy writing profiles, and for those who have Internet
access, there's at least one archive site with profiles.  IBM had
nothing to do with that, it was just people helping people and
sharing what they had.

Those are just the facts.

/Greg

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Internet: Greg.Pike@f49.n272.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Screen Reader
From: Greg.Pike@f49.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Pike)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:272/49 - Calliope's Den, Garrison NY


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

David Tanner writes:

 DT>         Add to this that IBM supports the MS DOS version of Screen Reader
 DT> so well that they dumped supporting it completely to
 DT> another company.  Now IBM says that they develope
 DT> products, but leave the support to others to do.  NOW,
 DT> if you call that support then you tell me the name of
 DT> the company and the number to call for Screen Reader
 DT> support; it isn't an IBM number and don't tell me it is
 DT> or I will prove you wrong directly from the spring SRD
 DT> Newsletter.

IBM contracted another company to do the support for Screen
Reader.  That's hardly dumping support.  The name of the company,
if I remember correctly, is CompuAnswer.  It's their business to
support software, not just Screen Reader, but lots of standard
applications as well.  Screen Reader users can get support for any
of the packages that they support in addition to Screen Reader.  I
personally don't like the idea of contracting out support
contracts, but at least the users get a little extra out of it.  I
don't think IBM gives a hoot about my personal opinions, but at
least they didn't dump support.  Support is still available.

I don't have the number of the company handy, but since you can
prove something by reciting it, I don't think it's necessary.
Anyone who purchases the package has the number as well as you do.
And yes, I do call that support.

To save you the trouble of hunting for things to attack, let me
explain the pros and cons of the support contract.  The pros are,
as I said above, you get support for a bunch of packages, and you
get to deal with a company who specializes in support and only
support.  The downside is that the support costs money.  When you
buy the package IBM pays for one year of support.  After that,
you're on your own.  I asked around about the price, but couldn't
get a definate answer.  Dennis DeVendra, who helped Tracy with her
problem, says he thinks it's around 50 to 60 dollars per year.

That's just the facts.

/Greg

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Internet: Greg.Pike@f49.n272.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Screen Reader
From: Greg.Pike@f49.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Pike)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:272/49 - Calliope's Den, Garrison NY


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

David Tanner writes:

 DT>         Yes, she said that since she was a programmer
 DT> and had the programming skills that she could handle
 DT> the POWL language and solve her problems.  That should
 DT> be a strong indicator to you that even she knew that
 DT> without the programming skills she would not have been
 DT> able to solve the problems.

As I said in a previous append, I talked to Dennis who helped Tracy
with her problem.  The solution to her problem involved no
programming.  The solution to her problem was to add an extra
option to the application package.  No programming involved.

Just the facts.

/Greg

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Subject: Re: Screen Reader
From: Greg.Pike@f49.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Pike)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:272/49 - Calliope's Den, Garrison NY


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

David Tanner writes, again:

 DT> Bottom line - programmers write software for programmers
 DT> to use, let the users be satisfied with what they get
 DT> and learn to program or forget it.  My eight years
 DT> teaching access technology, and three years as head of
 DT> a access technology training program indicate to me
 DT> that you are wrong, very wrong, and that if the new
 DT> Screen Reader does not make huge changes over the MS
 DT> DOS version that it will never come close to competing
 DT> with other speech software products now close to
 DT> release for Windows.

The bottom line is this:  Every piece of software that runs on
every computer everywhere was written by a programmer.  By
definition, if you write a one-line batch file to echo your name,
you're a programmer.  Give yourself a big pat on the back.

Since you've mentioned the Screen Reader Newsletter, you know
better than to say that the users have to be satisfied with what
they get or else.  Lots of goodies get shipped out with the
newsletter, including new profiles.  The current version of Screen
Reader is at 1.2.  That's the third version, or the second revision
from the original.  If IBM thought the original was good enough,
they wouldn't have released the newer versions.  The newer versions
were released because the users wanted more, and wanted different
things, hence new versions.

The new version of Screen Reader for OS/2 is quite a bit different
from the DOS version.  Naturally, it has to be because it now
accesses a graphical user interface.  The PAL programming language
has been simplified in some areas, but naturally, there are lots of
new things in the language to handle the GUI.

So far, the only product I've heard for Windows is the product from
SynthaVoice.  Are there others?  I've heard that Berkeley systems
was working on a toolkit for Windows, but I haven't heard anything
else about either.  If there are other packages in the works, I'd
be interested in hearing about them.

Just the facts.

/Greg

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Subject: Re: Screen Reader
From: Greg.Pike@f49.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Pike)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:272/49 - Calliope's Den, Garrison NY


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DT> So, why is it that having used speech for 10 years I
 DT> find it difficult to want to use a speech software
 DT> given to me that was the most expensive speech package
 DT> I own.  I want access, and I want it now, not after I
 DT> spend a couple of weeks or months learning a
 DT> programming language.  There are some good things to be
 DT> spend a couple of weeks or months learning a

Again, you don't have to use the programming language.  Install the
software and play with it.  Take the time to learn the standard
functions and just forget that you can actually customize it to be
more to your liking.  You don't have to program one byte of code to
use Screen Reader.

 DT> said for including a macro language in a speech
 DT> software, but don't hang all the power of the package
 DT> on a person's ability to program or write macros.

That's nonsense, all the power of the package doesn't hang on a
person's ability to program or write macros.  That's just being
silly.

As usual, those are just the facts.

/Greg

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                                ******

                  End of Issue # 2871 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
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