HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pete@cs.hw.ac.uk (Pete Sykes)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Laser Black Magic Vs vanilla
Date: 4 Sep 92 08:39:47 GMT
Distribution: eunet
Organization: Dept of Computing & Electrical Engineering, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

I'm planning on going over to single handed sailing and the
obvious choice is a Laser. I've sailed them often
enought to know where to look for the worn bits and 
where the problems start ( I'm buying second hand)

What I want to know is why the "Black Magic" version
costs so much. Is it:

	a)	Nice black gel coat, no other difference

	b)	Better quality lay up, components spars etc..

And does it all matter when the boat gets to be a few years old

Thanks

Pete Sykes	pete@icbl.hw.ac.uk


PS Anyone want to buy a Merlin Rocket - Magic boat for racing, but
useless for carrying passengers and fustrating whenyou do both
simultaneously
From: gt@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM (George Tatge)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:53:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Beginner
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
Newsgroups: rec.boats

>From reading this newsgroup for a couple of
>weeks I've become discouraged from owning a power
>boat.  When I hear stories of automatic oilers
>that don't work, improper fittings pulling out
>and corroding, greasy water in the bilge,
>thin-skinned Bayliners, cranky I/O units,
>and a host of other problems, legal and 
>mechanical, it scares me off.  I was hoping
>to spend more time having fun with my boat than
>with fixing it.


Don't be scared off power boats.  I bet if we could get an HONEST
reply from all the boat owners here (let's not hold our breath) we
would find that the use/maintenance ratio for powerboats is really
quite a bit higher than for sail boats.

One thing to consider is how many times you want to put your boat
in the water each year.  I'm pretty sure, that if you have a power
boat, you will get it in the water more times.  Why?  It's so much
easier.

I live about 10 minutes max. from the boat ramp.  I have no qualms
whatsoever about going out on the lake for an hour, or even 1/2 hour.
I can see the lake from my deck and there have been a number of times
this summer when I say, "sheesh, look how nice the water is," and
15 minutes later I've got my boat in the water.

Now you may not live so close to a boat ramp, but you still have to
consider how often you're going to be willing to do whatever it takes
to get your boat on the water.  I have a friend down the road who
has a nice sail boat.  He is a fanatic sailor.  Has no use for 
powerboats.  He is two minutes closer to the ramp than me.  So
how many times did he go to the trouble to get his sail boat out
this summer?  One.  Granted, he's been busy, but he'd be the first
to tell you he's not going to get out near as often as I am.

As for maintenance- I have an old, dilapidated boat, with a new engine.

It took me 2 hours this Spring to recommision it.  Change the lower
end oil, lube everything, check all electronics and fittings, and
safety gear, etc.

During the summer, I've spent about:

30 minutes repairing a seat.
15 minutes changing the lower end oil
10 minutes replacing the cigarette lighter/utility socket
60 minutes max doing misc. things I don't remember.

I'd estimate I've put the boat in the water on 60 separate occassions.

I honestly think you'll spend more time working on a sail boat and 
less time with it in the water.

g ("the lake's glass- grab a towel") t
From: billc@sextant.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill Courington)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: unusual incident (was Re: Lobster Pot)
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:42:01 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: billc@sextant.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: sextant.eng.sun.com

In article 11569@news.clarkson.edu, billp@voyager.chm.clarkson.edu (Bill Plunkett) writes:
..
>As it was, it only
>bent the home made crutch where it fits into the rudder guntles.  
                                                         ~~~~~~~
.. 

Are these combination pintles and gudgeons?  Sure would make hanging 
the rudder on the transom easier if the damned pintles were already 
in the gudgeons (or is it the other way?).  

Smiling,
BILL COURINGTON
 



Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: zintel@mdd.comm.mot.com (Mike Zintel)
Subject: Re: Bayliner myths: a challenge
Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 02:16:22 GMT

In article <1837vkINN1bf@gilligan.East.Sun.COM> mike@gilligan.East.Sun.COM (Mike Roncadori) writes:
>
>For most applications, (God, I'm supporting Bayliner here??),

Actually you are bashing Bayliners and their owners in a particularly
arrogant way. This could be a problem for you if you don't recognize
it. Better get help.

>a bayliner will do just fine. There aren't many people who
>want to do in excess of 70 MPH on the water, and those of
>us who choose to have likely been around boats for more than
>a little while. 

Damn, this was the sort of behavior that I thought folks out
grew with puberty or soon after. How long do we have ?

>The average Joe with 2.4 kids just want to go for a ride,
>and come back dry (with some money in his pocket). For those
>who wish to go faster, the price is a little steeper.

                          - Joe Average
-- 
---
Mike Zintel             zintel@mdd.comm.mot.com not zintel@mdi.com anymore
Motorola Mobile Data
Bothell, WA
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: bennett@erich.triumf.ca (P.Bennett)
Subject: Re: Instrument Tech (was: Re: Recomend good LORAN ???)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:24:00 GMT

In article <STEPH.92Sep1103921@candide.uchicago.edu>, steph@cs.uchicago.edu (Stephen Wilson Bailey) writes...
>Actually, I'd like to have it do like you suggest the Occam does,
>divide the distance by the your speed times the cosine of the angle
>between your course and the course to the mark (speed made good).
> 
I believe my Kings 8001 computes a "velocity towards waypoint" as well as
"velocity over ground", and uses the v. to waypoint in calculating time to go.

Peter Bennett VE7CEI                | Vessels shall be deemed to be in sight
Internet: bennett@erich.triumf.ca   | of one another only when one can be
Bitnet:   bennett@triumfer          | observed visually from the other
TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., Canada     |                          ColRegs 3(k)

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: jteloh@fenix.encore.com (John Teloh)
Subject: Andrew in Miami
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:08:32 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation


The reports from the local news and newspapers show that the Black Point 
and Dinner Key areas were heavily hit by Andrew. Boats stored in dry storage at 
Black Point Marina were destroyed as the building collapsed around them.

In the Dinner Key area, many boats had no where to go. There are few
safe harbors left in the Miami area. Most have been developed to improve 
the tax basis of Miami. Most boaters felt before Andrew that they would
just take there chances at the dock. This feeling prevailed in spite of the
fact that almost all marinas have rules requiring removal of your boat
when hurricane warnings go up. If the boat is not removed, the owner 
is liable for any damage.

The damage was astounding! Hundreds of boats were sunk. Many in their slips.
Dozens are in the parks and roads that run along Coconut Grove. Many were
holed by pilings as the storm surge came across Biscayne Bay. In a few cases
the boats were left impaled on several pilings. Not a pretty sight.

On Key Biscayne, the storm surge rolled right over the island. (Just as the
old timers had predicted) One classic shot of a cabin cruiser in the swimming
pool behind a house where is had been docked. 

Have not had much info on how well the marine interests in Miami Beach faired.

My own boat (F-24 tri) was trailed to Fort Lauderdale from Miami Yacht Club
where it survived without a scratch. The marine community in Fort Lauderdale
was luckly spared a direct hit, and sustained little damage.

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: heon@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (garry.j.heon)
Subject: Re: Bayliner myths: a challenge
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:39:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.170615.24931@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, swist@doodly.mcc.dec.com (Jim Swist) writes:
> 
> One of the biggest myths is that there is a perception
> of a huge amount of difference among the big selling
> mass-produced recreational boats (Bayliner, SeaRay,
> FourWinns, etc).  Their fundamental construction techniques,
> including use of chopper guns and general low-tech materials
> in the layup are very close.  I would be *very* surprised
> if Baja indeed didn't own a chopper gun, as suggested by
> an earlier post.  We are talking big bucks to get a 
> fundamentally better hull quality (Boston Whaler et al).

Surprise!  Baja doesn't use chopper anywhere in their boats.  I've seen
a 24' Baja that had hit a bulk head.  Needless to say the boat had
a giant hole in the side near the bow.  There were no signs of chopper
material.  Usually a boat manufacturer will use a chopper gun right after
spraying the gel into the mold.  Doing this allows faster layup since the
chopper usually doesn't "bleed through".  Back to Baja, they also core
everything in the boat with Baltek Balsa.  Every where you drill you hit 
balsa, sides, transom, cockpit deck, foredeck, everywhere.  Not easy
to repair.  Also, Baja is one of the few manufacturers that puts all the 
graphics directly in the gel.  Even the Pricey boats like Formula
use Imron or tape, YUK.  People talk about "bang for the buck" and 
Bayliner being it, well I've beat the shit out of my 28' Baja powered
by twin custom 502 cu in engines doing 80 mph for the past 4 years
and the boat is still as tight as the day I bought it.  This boat has
spends more time in the air than the water.  As far as
performance boats go, $50K for this type of boat is cheap, although
even after 4 years of abuse it looks NEW, except for cracked gimbal
rings on the outdrives.  That's the only part of the boat that hasn't
been absolutely perfect and Merc still can't figure out why I crack
gimbals every 10 hours of use.  Maybe I should be their new "test Pilot".
Chopper guns are not bad if used correctly.  The biggest draw back is the
strength to weight ratio.  It's very heavy and not very strong.

******************************************
* MY OPINIONS.............AT&T's NETWORK *
*                                        *
* Garry Heon                     AT&T    *
* heon@cbnewsg.att.com       Holmdel, NJ *
******************************************
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: burzycki@zax.eda.teradyne.com (Mike Burzycki)
Subject: Awesome sailing last weekend, huh?
Originator: burzycki@zax
Organization: Teradyne, Inc. Boston MA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:09:28 GMT

Anybody out there do any sailing this past weekend in the Massachusetts area? 
The wind was really howling both days, but I was only able to get out there on
Sunday.  

I went out with a friend on his Sunfish in a large bay and the wind was 
really strong. It was a little bit cool because a Sunfish is a really WET boat, especially in those conditions. Anyway, we were sailing pretty hard and
getting really soaked; both of us were hiking out over the side of the boat. 
We were horizontal over the water with our toes hooked in the cockpit of the
boat when all of a sudden SNAP! The mast sheared off about 1 foot above the 
base. Both of us flipped over backwards, really surprised. We were several
hundred yards offshore, so it was a good swim back with the boat in tow. We 
were both well prepared with lifejackets, wetsuit, etc. so no harm done.  

If you're reading this, Tom, thanks again. 

What a great day for sailing. Anybody else get out there in those winds?
-- 
Mike Burzycki                             burzycki@sky.dnet.teradyne.com
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: larry@pdn.paradyne.com (Larry Swift)
Subject: Re: Recomend good LORAN ???
Organization: AT&T Paradyne, Largo, Florida
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 11:33:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.222142.1575@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:
>Help ... I need to get a decent LORAN unit for someone as a gift, but

Check out the latest Apelco at somewhere around $300
$I think.  The latest issue of Practical Sailor
liked it and if I remember correctly rated it a best
buy for the money.

Larry Swift                     larry@pdn.paradyne.com
AT&T Paradyne, LG-132           Phone: (813) 530-8605
8545 - 126th Avenue, North      Gulfstar 37, aft cockpit
Largo, FL, 34649-2826           She's old and she's creaky, but she holds!

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough)
Subject: Re: Beginner
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 23:01:50 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 


My advice to beginners would be "don't get sucked in by all the toys
in Sail magazine!"
 
Go simple, and strive to keep it simple. Most of the things that fail
and become a pain in the taffrail are complex "systems" you don't need
anyway.
 
If you want to get out on the water, start with a simple skiff or
sailing dinghy. Of course, temper your choice of body of water according
to the boat you are using. 
 
You can have a lot of fun with a basic boat... ...after some years, you
may find that you had more fun with that 14-footer than you did with
the 35-footer, on balance.
 
Greg

From: gt@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM (George Tatge)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:35:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Electronics (too much is never enough)
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
Newsgroups: rec.boats


>What, no weather fax, depth sounder, or fish finder? :-)

>-dean

Oh yea, forgot the fish finder/depth sounder.  But I think we caught
him on the weather fax.  Although, he's probably got one since the
article was written.

gt

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: jbs@cbnews.cb.att.com (john.b.skiendziel)
Subject: Marine Supply shop
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: nj
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 18:17:10 GMT
Keywords: supplies



	I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good
	marine supply store in New Jersey or I guess a good
	mail order shop.

	I looking for good prices, quality products and helpful
	sales people.  Items I'm looking for are marine paints
	and finishes, roping, bumpers and possibly sails.



	Thanks in advance --JBS



>>>DISCLAIMER - The opinions express by no means represent those of my employer
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: unusual incident (was Re: Lobster Pot)
From: Eric Schweitzer <ERSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 1 Sep 1992 16:09:17 EDT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <STEPH.92Sep1112150@candide.uchicago.edu>, steph@cs.uchicago.edu
(Stephen Wilson Bailey) says:
>
>Well, since you know what pintles and gudgeons are, maybe you can give
>me a good definition of ``partners'' and ``hounds''.
> ....<delitia>
>My understanding is the partners (why is it plural?) is where the mast
>meets the deck.  Does this only apply to keel stepped masts?

Partners are plural because they are formed of two things, the
mast carlings (give side support) and the chocks (for and aft support).
As the partners form the hole that the mast is steped through, I would
use it only for a keel stepped mast.

>I get
>the feeling that the hounds are where the top shrouds attach to the
>mast, not to be confused with the tangs which are the actual fittings
>which connect the shrouds to the mast.  Does this apply to other shroud
>attachment points?

I must admit I was not familiar with this term, but Webster tells me it is
the "projection at the mast head for supporting the heel of the topmast
and the upper parts of the lower rigging". Hence, it would seem to
be like the cheeks, only part of the mast rather than shaped boards that
are added on.
From: roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Changing a name
Date: 4 Sep 92 14:26:35 GMT
Organization: Public Health Research Institute (New York)

hagens@news.ans.net (Robert Hagens) writes:
> If you buy a used boat, and want to change the name, is this bad luck?

	Boats names get changed all the time.  For example, I'm pretty sure
the Exxon Valdiz had its name changed.  To the best of my knowledge, it
hasn't had any bad luck since the name was changed.
-- 
roy@wombat.phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith)
Public Health Research Institute
455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016, USA
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: 1960 Chapmans, should I buy it? 
From: hal@kaos.declab.usu.edu (000200 Lynch)
Date: 31 Aug 92 09:08:15 MDT
Reply-To: hal@kaos.declab.usu.edu (000200 Lynch)
Distribution: world
Organization: Utah State University

As the subject said I have found a circa 1960 edition of Chapmans in a used
book shop for $15.00.  Well perhaps it didn't say all that.  My interests
other than curiosity are strictly those of an inland lake power boater.  A
quick perusal in the shop showed many items of immediate application and lots
that would be fun to know.  The questions are this:
	Is $15.00 a fair price?
	Does the information of interest to a boater such as myself change
	enough to suggest a newer edition?
Thanx
--
Hal Lynch
	Internet: Hal@cache.declab.usu.edu
	DECnet:   USU::HAL
From: heon@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (garry.j.heon)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Formula for speed ?
Summary: y
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:09:58 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Aug27.141850.13370@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, kevin@turbo.Columbia.NCR.COM (Kevin Ormerod) writes:
> 
> 	16' X 7' = 112 ( again, assumes accuracy)
> 	I suspect your boat has a transom height of less than 20"
> 	and/or has a flat bottom with a hard chine like the aluminum
> 	models (at least some of them) therefore,
> 	.5 X 112 = 56
> 	56 - 15 = 41
> 	next multiple of 5 = 45
> 	Therefore 45 HP would be the maximum legal limit.
> 
> 	AND THEN AGAIN. If your boat has < 20" transom and it does
> 	not have a flat bottom or hard chine, then:
> 	16' X 7' = 112 (same assumption)
> 	.8 X 112 = 89.6
> 	89.6 - 25 = 64.6
> 	next multiple of 5 = 65
> 	Therefore 65 HP would be the maximum.
> 
> NOTE THAT THE REGULATIONS, TABLES, AND CALCULATIONS DON'T HAVE ANY
> REFERENCE TO CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS OR TRANSOM STRENGTH.  If a
> manufacturer builds a boat with a transom that isn't strong enough
> to support these limits I suspect they would be liable.
> 
I don't know which cat my boat would fall into but, my 16' Laser
that has a 7' beam and a transom with less than 20" and a Coast
Gaurd max limits plate that says 250hp max, 4 persons........
How come the boat doesn't fit the formula?  Are there any other 
factors that might be figured in the calculations?  Does the CG
allow exception depending on construction?  I have a 2.5 
Bridgeport on her and the rating of that engine is in the 250hp range,
so I'm told.  Anyway the boat has stayed together and as long as the CG plate
says 250 I'm legal....if 106 mph on the river is legal.......
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: bjames@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: 30' Sailboat info...
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:34:21 GMT

Our 30-footer is a Cal 9.2, built 1981.  I can recommend her as an 
extremely easy-to-handle, good-looking boat.  We seldom sail with more 
than two, but with a furling jib and all lines led aft, it has never 
been a problem.  The 11-horse Kabuta has proven reliable, requiring 
only preventive maintenance, though we could wish for a little more 
power in heavy winds.  Handling in tight spaces under engine is a dream
- she turns on a dime and gives a nickel in change.

We have sailed her for six years in Newfoundland and found her very 
comfortable on a two or three week cruise.  The quarter berth and the 
two singles in the main cabin are unusually large (though we generally 
use the v-berth).  The main salon has accomodated 16 for desert.  Some 
of the storage bins get slightly damp, but capacity is no problem.

We find no evidence of osmosis -- she was painted last year.  The boat 
has a remarkably sleek appearance due to her uncluttered deck and 
long, tapered, smoked glass ports.

Yes, our Castaway is for sale and if you were closer, Maurice, we 
could talk trade-in.  Otherwise, check to see if there is one in your 
area.  They are a fine design.

____________________________________________________________________

Bonnie James
Memorial University of Newfoundland, St. John's
From: billc@sextant.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill Courington)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: porta-potti
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:19:25 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: billc@sextant.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: sextant.eng.sun.com

I agree with other posters that sewage should be treated 
before entering the water.  

At the same time, I get the feeling that environmental
zealots spend too much time pursuing boaters and
boatyards and not enough (none?) tackling what seems to me
to be the _big_ pollution source in urban areas such as SF
Bay:  runoff from the streets.  

BILL COURINGTON

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: jrcodl@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: porta-potti
Reply-To: jrcodl@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:25:03 GMT

What is the status of porta potties on boats?  It seems that somewhere I've 
heard that there are illegal.  I sail on smaller lakes that can't afford any discharge.
John (how fitting ;-) )
From: swist@doodly.mcc.dec.com (Jim Swist)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Bayliner myths: a challenge
Date: 2 Sep 92 17:06:15 GMT
Reply-To: swist@took.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


One of the biggest myths is that there is a perception
of a huge amount of difference among the big selling
mass-produced recreational boats (Bayliner, SeaRay,
FourWinns, etc).  Their fundamental construction techniques,
including use of chopper guns and general low-tech materials
in the layup are very close.  I would be *very* surprised
if Baja indeed didn't own a chopper gun, as suggested by
an earlier post.  We are talking big bucks to get a 
fundamentally better hull quality (Boston Whaler et al).
The mass produced boats are differentiated mainly by 
differences in fit and finish and in the appointments added
after the fact.  Yes a SeaRay is a better boat than a Bayliner
but not by much....
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: sid@Ingres.COM (Sid Shapiro)
Subject: small non-sail recomendations
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company, Alameda CA 94501
Distribution: usa
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:27:55 GMT

Hi folks,
I may soon be in the market for a small (I guess that means <20')
non-sailboat for running around some lakes.  Does anyone have any
recommendations on types to get or type to stay away from? 

How about any suggestions as to what something of this sort ought to
cost new or used? 

I know these are pretty vague questions, but I had to start somepalce.
Thanks!
-- 
Sid Shapiro -- Ingres, an ASK Company
sid@ingres.com          (415)748-3470
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: good Loran
From: jc@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 07:17:14 PDT
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Nanaimo, B.C.
Summary: furuno

I recommend the furuno LC-90 , LC-91 models

           jc@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (John Cross)
     The Old Frog's Almanac  (Home of The Almanac UNIX Users Group)    
(604) 245-3205 (v32)    <Public Access UseNet>    (604) 245-4366 (2400x4)
        Vancouver Island, British Columbia    Waffle XENIX 1.64