From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Self Regulating Populations
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 04:17:49 GMT

In <BtxKor.920@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes in
response to me:

>ds> Thunder and gunshots sound entirely different.  Trust me on this, 
>ds> I still have a reflex that puts me on the ground whenever I hear 
>ds> a gunshot, but I'll sleep through a thunderstorm, and in fact 
>ds> rather enjoy the sound of thunder in the evenings.  It is foolish 
>ds> to not think deer can distinguish between the two.  

>It's even more foolish to assume that deer mysteriously 
>understand the difference in significance between the two.  

	I'd wager that it would take very little time for you to determine
the difference between inbound and outbound fire, so why should deer not?
It's not a matter of logical reasoning ability.  Remember your hunting days?
You've most likely never been shot at while in the woods, but deer are.
Can you distinguish between gunshots and thunder?  How about a 12ga and
a .22?  We're not exactly prey animals, either, and hence our abilities
in this area probably haven't been increased through evolution to the same
extent that those of deer have.  I'm not saying a deer hears a shot and
thinks, "Hmmmm...  Sounds like a 12ga, long-barrel, about 320 yards away,"
but it's foolish to think they cannot associate a gunshot with danger and
distinguish it from thunder, and it is likewise foolish to think that the
smell of humans in the forest wouldn't be associated with danger by default.

>Another poster has pointed out that missed shots kick up dust and 
>debris, and this is supposed to "teach" the deer that his life is 
>in danger.  Storm breezes also kick up dust and debris, yet no 
>one's suggested that deer ought to be afraid of stormy thunder.  

	Tornado's also kick up dust and debris.  Care to claim that
animals don't get a bit nervous before one hits?  Earthquakes do the
same things, and it is noted that animals exhibit nervous behavior
before one happens.  Humans, particularly those in California, don't.
I've seen calves break through a fence, though none of them had ever
seen a tornado before.  If it wasn't for my stupidity and lack of
paying attention I would have joined them.  In any event, when the
tornado went roaring past our place I was the only one not running
for shelter, and by coincidence I was the only one who had seen one
before and knew what carnage it could wreak.  Luckily, there is a
soft spot in tornado's for schools and dumb farmers too bundled up
in clothing to bother hearing it.  I only got a 50' ride.

>ds> ...  Herbivores in Africa will keep a greater distance between 
>ds> themselves and a cheeta than they will a lion, if Marlin Perkins 
>ds> is to be believed.  I'd say this says something about their 
>ds> ability to evaluate a potential threat. 

>You're describing a threat that's far more tangible and observable
>than the once a year occurance of invisible bullets flying through
>the air.  

	Sez who?  A gunshot is quite a tangible threat, especially if
you have been witness to a shooting.  Shoot at a bird on a fence and
see if it doesn't fly when you miss, yet it can't see the bullet or
any dirt pluming skyward from the impact.  I'd say the noise and the
sound of the bullet passing is threat enough for most animals, and for
most people too, even if you've never been shot at before.

>Moreover, you're describing herbivores that still live
>in social groups with young members, old members, and various ages
>in between.   By contrast, our discussions of deer involve 
>"herds" that are fragmented at best, and comprised for the most
>part of adolescent animals.

	None of which makes any difference if one believes that deer are
prey animals and thus fear before they learn that the object of their fear
will not hurt them and modify their behavior.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >