HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 26 Dec 92 22:03:06 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Dec24.035503.18831@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>
>
>>What's wrong with you?  Can't you tell right from wrong?  Rounding up
>>and deporting innocents is wrong.  Even if it seems expedient, it is
>>still wrong.
>
>You are quite right about that.
>
>On the other hand, in the case of the Hamas terrorists, we're not
>talking about innocents.

Funny, I don't recall any trials or convictions. How do you know 
who is innocent and who isn't?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: jewish fundamenta 1/3
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Distribution: talk
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 01:32:58 GMT

Mr. McGuire (1) ignores the fact that Kahane was repudiated by all
mainstream Jewish and Israeli leaders and (2) ignores the fact that
Kahane, as extreme as he was, was a moderate compared to so-called
Arab moderates such as King Hussein of Jordan, who has made it illegal
for Jews to live in eastern Palestine.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23860 talk.politics.soviet:9890 soc.culture.greek:11728 soc.culture.europe:10679 soc.history:10299 soc.culture.soviet:11371 soc.culture.iranian:11090
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: deportation
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:53:47 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1hkg24INN3qp@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer) writes:
>
>While it was not nice of the Kuwaits to kick out the Palestinians they
>were within their rights to do so.  The same does not apply to the
>Israeli government.  You might have a different world view about who
>belongs where, but not everyone shares it, and your accusations of
>hypocrisy are incorrect.

It is my belief that Alan's intentions on these newsgroups are only
to aggrevate the situation by making such ridiculous statements.  Indeed
they are ridiculous because anytime anyone criticizes these injustices
against Palestinian human beings, they are viciously attacked by both
Kuwaitis and Zionists.  He loves to unnerve people by making exemptions
for Israel's brutality by questioning the loyalty of Arab people and
Arab nations, which, as we know, the latter does not exist - especially
from the Gulf region.  And we also know that anyone in their right mind
who supports Palestinians are radicals and Jew-hating scumbags.  How
many traps do you continue to set Alan?  How many times do you think we
will fall into them?
 
Anisa
	"The best kind - angry, rebellious, critical - a renegade ..."
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel & hamas
Date: 27 Dec 92 16:46:20 GMT
Distribution: talk
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.

Some of what you say actually makes some sense for a change.  Israel
does indeed need to come to some sort of accomodation with the
Palestinian Arabs, as well as with the dozens of Arab states still at
war with it.  That is why it has been so conciliatory in the
negotiations.

Unfortunately, while it takes two to make peace, it only takes one to
continue to make war.  Israel can't make peace alone;  the Arabs, too,
have to start negotiating seriously and start making some concessions.
As long as they keep insisting on total withdrawal with no compromise,
and keep up the violent intifada, with the terrorism, murders,
stabbings, kidnappings, molotov cocktails, etc, there's not going to
be much progress.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Dec24.035503.18831@nysernet.org>
	<1992Dec26.220306.14377@informix.com>
	<1992Dec29.001522.1998@bony1.bony.com>
Date: 29 Dec 92 00:05:23

In article <1992Dec29.001522.1998@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   The same question arises when police shoot someone to death at the
>   scene of a crime, or when American soldiers shoot and kill Somali
>   gunmen, as they have several times in recent days, or when American
>   fighter jets shoot down an Iraqi plane.  In none of these cases does a
>   court case reach a decision before action is taken.

Except that the Palestinian deportees weren't caught in flagrante
delicto at all.  If there was any fear of immediate violence on their
part, the correct action would be temporary detainment and criminal
proceedings.  Yet the Israeli military decided that deportation, a
violation of international law, was better.  Why?

>   ...Israel has handed down an unbelievably lenient punishment to people
>   who are unbelievably evil.  If only other countries would be half as
>   generous, we'd see a much kinder, gentler world.

Again the question is why?  Because the Israeli military is kinder and
gentler?  Hardly.  An obvious answer is because there was essentially
no criminal case against these individuals, that the only case against
them is one of guilt by association, which could have been thrown out
of court.

A more likely explanation is that Israel sought a political, not a
legal, solution to a political problem.  Decapitate the political arm
of Hamas by removing the political activists from the Occupied
Territories.  The "military" arm of Hamas (the thugs that actually
performed the kidnap and murders recently) is unfortunately relatively
untouched by such an action, but again, this was not the aim.  The
Israeli government underestimated the foreign political fallout.  (The
domestic reaction among Israeli Jews is about 90% in favor, I hear.)
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 21:34:46 GMT

rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:

>In article <531@owl.ukc.ac.uk> dat@ukc.ac.uk (D.A.Turner) writes:

>   Can people not see that the violence of Hamas and similar  organisations
>   is the natural reaction of the Palestinians to the misery of their lives
>   under Israeli occupation?

>Then why were such groups organized long before June 1967, when this was
>not an issue (the PLO was formed in 1964)?

There you go, confusing the issues by reminding people of the history.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Date: 3 Jan 93 05:29:39 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:

>The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from
>the Occupied Territories.

>My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
>which *led* to the expulsions?

>Can anyone (pro or anti -Israel) answer this?

Because it was not an act of terrorism ... Terrorism is the action of killing
civilians not militery ... The victim is a policeman, and it is known that
Israeli policemen are terrorists because they hunt down civilian arab 10 year
olds in the streets of the west bank and Gaza.

Are you saying that the world should condemn civilian rebelions around the
world ... If so why didn't the world condemn the civilian uprising in
Tiniamin square in china and the uprising against comunism in the former
soviet union.

>--
>cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

--Marwan
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24398 soc.culture.arabic:6076
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: How typical (and pathetic) are the sources Greeks use
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 19:34:06 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <11638.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:

>today? Poland is where the Poles live. Macedonia is where the
>Macedonians live. Macedonia is the northmost province of Greece.

And Cyprus is the southeastmost province of Greece? I mention 
it because it seems like a good bumper sticker for the "paliks".
Your senses lie to you, "sipa of delco" lies to you, the more 
you search the less you find, the more you try, the worse it
gets. Ignorance is bliss. 

Did you know that, in the city of Komotini, a former Greek 
Parliamentarian of Turkish parentage, was sentenced recently 
to 18 months of imprisonment with no right to appeal, just for 
saying outloud that he was of Turkish descent? This duly-elected 
ethnic Turkish official was also deprived of his political rights 
for a period of three years. Each one of these barbaric and terrorist 
acts seems to be none other than a vehicle, used by the Greek 
governments, to cover-up their inferiority complex they display, 
vis-a-vis, the people of Turkiye and Macedonians. 

In addition, nobody has the right to ask the people of Turkiye to go 
through another decade of nightmare just so that the Greek governments 
could give another chance to the Greek Army to slaughter more innocent 
Turks. Greeks had their chance between 1960 and 1974. But they proved 
beyond any doubt that Turkish lives and rights mean nothing next to the 
intoxication of their Pan-Hellenistic utopias. 

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jordanian Palestinians (was: israel & hamas)
Date: 29 Dec 92 07:33:58 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>>In 1954, Jordan passed a law that defined as a Jordanian citizen
>>(i) someone who was a Jordanian citizen according to either of
>>    two earlier laws, and
>>(ii) someone who was not a Jew, was a Palestinian citizen in 1947,
>>    and whose normal place of residence was Jordan at the time of
>>    passage of this law.

>>Note that Jordan in (ii) then included the WB according to Jordanian
>>law.  This is from memory, so some details might be wrong.  I am
>>certain that Jews were expressly excluded in part (ii); this was
>>claimed to be in retaliation for Israel's Law of Return.

>Funny how Israel didn't expressly exclude Arabs from being citizens.

Funny how I didn't say anything about Jordan expressly excluding
Jews from being citizens.

>Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Brendan.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24542 talk.politics.soviet:10159 soc.culture.greek:11997 soc.culture.europe:10958 soc.history:10490 soc.culture.soviet:11746 soc.culture.turkish:13739
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: It is not surprising that "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" collaborated with the Nazis.
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 16:14:46 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1992Dec31.231708.922@trl.oz.au> jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) writes:

>I used to post the weekly statistics on soc.culture.europe under the
>title "Weekly Mutlu Index", preceded with zany editorials when I 
>was in the mood. I still save everything off soc.culture.europe,
>but haven't run and produced any Mutlu Index for about three months
>(getting a bit boring, it is). I have saved all the past data, and

All your comments to the contrary, this point has not been addressed
properly. Could you, from your store of vast knowledge, enlighten us
on the "mutlu" subject. By the way, as a 'guy,' you should be more concerned 
with the genocide and death toll of innocent Turks and Kurds than of those 
who used unprovoked aggression to invade, rape and pillage a neighbor.
In any case, history is full of stories of genocide. Annihilation
of Urartus and their culture by the Armenian invaders was one of
the first examples of genocide. When Armenian dictators instigated 
Armenians to revolt during World War I against the Ottoman Government,
their intention was to exterminate the Turks and to create an
independent Armenian state in eastern Anatolia where Armenians were
only about 15 percent of the population. Entire population of the
region was subjected to genocide beyond belief; genocide which
was planned to exterminate the whole Turkish people of the region
to the last man, woman and child. Armenians tortured and massacred
millions of defenseless civilians. To assemble innocent civilians 
in the mosques and burn them in the buildings was one of their
methods. Even today the traveler in that region is seldom free
from the evidence of these Armenian crimes.

It is not surprising, that the ASALA/SDPA/ARF collaborated with 
the Nazis.

 "Wholly opportunistic the Dashnaktzoutun have been variously
  pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish,
  as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and 
  anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient."[1]

[1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), 'Cairo to Damascus,' 
    Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438.

  
Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Occupation
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:09:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.093314.4987@Princeton.EDU>,
niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
> In <1992Dec20.232926.27970@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M.
Ben-Halim) writes:
> >In article <42741@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
writes:
> >><1992Dec20.053857.20960@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M.
Ben-Halim):
> 
> >>If you think that the UN is picking on Israel it is because it is
> >>the ONLY occupying force in the world today.
> 
> >>	Wrong.  Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Turkey are occupying
> >>	Kurdistan.  The PKK (the Kurdish version of the PLO)
> >>	seeks to make Kurdistan an autonomous Kurdish state.
> >>	In the last eight years, over 3700 people have died
> >>	in clashes with the PKK in Turkey alone.
> 
> >BZZZZT! WRONG! Kurdistan was not invaded by all of those states and
occupied.
> >Residents in those areas are CITIZENS of the respective countries. They have
> >the same rights as the rest of the population (which is not saying much in
> >most of the ME :-(.
> 
> Not only is it damning with faint praise, it isn't even true.  They
> don't have the right to speak their own language, or to be taught in it.
> 
> And that's pretty much an artificial distinction.  Would you be
> satisfied if Israel simply annexed the West Bank/Gaza and made the
> Palestinians living there citizens?  Would most Palestinians?  
> 
> Do you think most Palestinians would no longer consider the Israelis
> occupiers?

Getting off the subject a bit ......

Actually, in my opinion, the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza would
probably be a positive step IF the Israeli government made all
Palestinians (including those in diaspora) truly equal citizens. It
would be pretty difficult for Israel to maintain an instituted "Jewish"
state when there is no longer an overwhelming majority of Jews and still
claim to be a democracy. 

Furthermore, if Israel made such an annexation and failed to take in
Palestinians as equals, the institutionalized racism inherent in the
present government would become even more clear to the world.

> And what makes you say that Kurdistan wasn't invaded by those states
> anyway?  What do you call sending troops to an area and declaring it
> part of your country, if not an invasion?
> 
> -- 
> David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
> niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
>    princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
> Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24014 soc.culture.arabic:5872
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Date: 23 Dec 92 22:14:50 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1992Dec23.152007.966@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
> Eric S. Perlman writes:
>
>>The situation of Palestinians may not be the best,
>
>   That is for sure.
>
>>but if you want to use the comparison then answer me these questions: where
>>are the gas chambers?
>
>   Instead, we have people burried alive by buldozers and houses of people who
> are not even suspect destroyed. People are expelled out of their country and
> their land and property is given to foreigners.

There was, unfortunately, one incident in the first month of the Intifada where
a non-commisioned officer (who subsequently got a long prison sentence) without
authorization "restrained" three prisoners by burying their LEGS and THORAX
in sand. Their heads were sticking out. It was strongly condemned by the
military tribunal.



>
>> where are the concentration camps?
>
>   In the Negev desert among other places are camps where innocent people are
> incarcerated for extended periods of time without even a charge. They are
> subjected to torture from which they frequently die.
>

Subject to torture ?  Absolutely !  Imagine, only TWO (2 !!) ping pong tables
in each 500-man section. And only ONE (1  !!) huge screen color TV. And meat
(big portions) only ONCE A DAY !!

Please don't  tell ME about KETZIOT prison in the Negev.

Listen moron, *I* was there in September 1990 for the entire month. As God is
my witness, I will NEVER forget the sight of a prisoner in his Adidas sneakers,
Rayban sunglasses on, holding a ping pong racket in one hand and a tall drink
in his other.

The only torture there were the screams of younger males being raped by their
fellow prisoners at night.

Prisoners had daily hot showers, plenty of good food (including olive oil,
pitta and other delicacies), exercise (calisthenics), prayers as often as they
wanted, and educational lectures by their own leaders. By the way, if I were a
scout for one of the major-league baseball teams, I'd hire a dozen of the
"guys" on the spot. A few were able to throw a rock with a message on it a
couple of hundred feet away with incredible precision.



Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Shamir and Wayne McGuire
From: fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 10:58:51 GMT
Distribution: talk
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center

"wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

> [Reference to interview where Shamir sais that Arabs enjoy murdering etc.]

   I never heard Shamir or any other Likud politician making any
racist statement. You claim is completely impossible. The word "they"
should mean terrorists, not Arabs. Either you or UPI got some phrases
of the Shamir's interview and moved them out of the context.

Dan
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24199 soc.culture.arabic:5975
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Deportee Misidentity
Date: 28 Dec 1992 01:10:07 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



CBS news at 12:00 Sunday Ohio Time reported that:

"An israeli newspaper reports that 6 of the palestinian 
deportees were deported by misidentity."  

The news didn't mention the newspaper name.  However, I
will try to look it up if I have time.

If any can find it, please post.   
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23948 talk.politics.soviet:9930 soc.culture.greek:11802 soc.culture.europe:10736 soc.rights.human:4649 soc.culture.soviet:11456 soc.culture.iranian:11118
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Date: 21 Dec 1992 16:32:05 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <4698@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
|> In article <BzBAHI.4vs@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
|> >
|> >They found his body bound and strangled in a ditch outside of 
|> >Jerusalem.  Another victim of peaceful demonstrations by peace-loving
|> >Arabs who want NOTHING more than than to live in peace.  Right.
|> 
|> His death is on Israel's hands.  Israel did not want to exchange him
|> for Sheikh Ahmed (who is paralyzed and going blind, which is, I presume,
|> very humanitarian on Israel's part).

Very interesting considering the fact that he was murdered before
any demands were presented to the Israeli Gov't.  I think this comes
under the title of "red herrings".

|> If Israel is so interested in peace with Palestinians, they wouldn't
|> have expelled the 400 accused (mind you, not tried in a public court. 
|> Even if they were, their fate would be sealed anyway) of collaborating
|> with the Hamas.  They were just targetted before this and Israel had its 
|> excuse and further justification to expell masses of Palestinians (despite
|> condemnation by the world community).

I agree that this was a mistake, and that two wrongs do not make a right.

|> If Israel was so interested in peace and living in peace, they would do
|> everything in their power to cut to the chase on the peace talks and stop
|> occupying and oppressing Palestinians in the territories.

Well, the problem is a bit more complex than that, and bandying words
about doesn't really solve anything.  I haven't seen the Palestinian
people respond in any meaningful way to some of the gestures made by
Israeli gov't when Rabin took office.

	Shai
-- 
Shai Guday		| 
OS Software Engineer	| 
Thinking Machines Corp. |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23964 soc.rights.human:4655