HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Help: Food on Tall Ships?
Date: 15 Sep 1992 19:29:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <193u25INNebe@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> as571@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (William J. Emblom) writes:
>
>Tall ship, early 19th century, crewed by 20, including captain, 
>a two-burner galley, and no refrigeration.  What kind of meals can
>be prepared to feed 20 people?
>
You might--if you have the time to spend--read C. S. Forester's novels
about Horatio Hornblower.  Forester did his homework thoroughly, and
there are some interesting scenes.  How do you eat ship's biscuit?  Well,
first you tap it on the table till all the weevils crawl out of it.  Then
you eat it.  (Save the weevils, feed them to the few chickens you've
still got on board.)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: akatlas@athena.mit.edu (Alia Atlas)
Subject: Re: Quote in my .sig
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:39:59 GMT

Hops were certainly around before 1420, though I can't vouch for them being in
England.  However, they are mentioned in a mead recipe from a German cookbook
from the 1340s.

Alia Atlas
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Olives!!
From: john@csufres.CSUFresno.EDU (John Q. Generic)
Date: 12 Sep 92 21:19:00 PDT
Organization: California State University, Fresno

In article <u734120.716275087@bruny> u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (John Lamp) writes:
>Growing from seed is not the best way to go.  Beware - trees grow up to 6
>metres high, and take many years to come into fruit.  Popular varieties in
>Australia are Sevillano, Manzanillo, Mission and Verdale.
>
Also beware that olive trees are incredibly messy and cause allergic 
reactions in a high percentage of people.  (I'm in California's
central valley, which is the home of Lindsey Olives, and there are
olive trees right out side the door.)  The pollen drops on everything,
then the olives fall if not picked, and make stains everywhere.  I
think olives are the reason my nose is usually congested. 

--
+----------------------------+   ||| | || |   
| -John  (The Generic John)  |   ||| | || |   
| john@csufres.csufresno.edu |   ||| | || |   
+-----------"Moo"------------+   666 1 13 0
From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Down Hearth/Spit Dogs?
Date: 15 Sep 92 18:28:59 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1992Sep15.194101.15306@cas.org>, jac54@cas.org () writes:
> In article <1992Sep11.194627.2917@cvedc.prime.com> cmr@cvedc.prime.com (Chesley Reyburn) writes:
>>
>>How about a bacterial colony getting going in some dish left out for days
>>at a time?
>>
> 	This is still a problem in modern times.  Introductory microbiology
> 	classes will point out how some meat processing set-ups look
> 	just like enormous versions of cultures for the very dangerous
> 	_Clostridia_.  ...

> 	Check out a text on public health or food microbiology.  If it
> 	doesn't stop you eating out, it might slow you down a bit.

Gee, I've always thought of it as keeping up my immune response!

Kay Klier     Biology Dept  UNI
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: toxins in food
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:46:54 GMT

In article <23129@sybase.sybase.com> leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
>Along this line, I've often wondered.  How do people discover that foods
>that require an immense amount of processing to make them good to eat,
>actually are good to eat?  What possesses them to take the time to
>figure out how much processing it takes?  Simple hunger is probably not
>the answer, when other, more easily and immediately eaten foods are
>around.  I'm thinking specifically of tapioca, which is fatally toxic 
>through the umpteen steps it takes to detoxify it, right until the one
>point when it suddenly stops being toxic (or at least, this is my
>understanding of it).  Who the hell discovered that tapioca was
>eventually edible, and how many people had to die beforehand?

I've wondered about things like this too.  When you think about the
effort put into kneading bread you wonder how it ever started.
Perhaps some child played with a bunch of flour and water and later
the family noticed that it wasn't the usual rye brick?  And the
first person who ever ate moldy cheese must have been really hungry,
but who gives blue cheese a second thought today?

Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
#include "witty_sig.h"
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Turkeys, and crusts
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:14:42 GMT

This is what Jo Ann MacElhiney (the woman I spoke of about
Turkey's and their entry into Europe) sent me in response
to my query.  At the end, she has a request of her own.

  I'll try to get you some info. on turkeys, by next week. Every author claims a 
  different date, but I have reason to believe that they were served in homes of 
  the wealthy in Europe well before 1600. I'm reasonably sure I have illus. of 
  live recognizable turkeys from documentable sources, and text that confirms 
  their presence in England in period. I believe the early Spanish explorers 
  brought them back to Spain, but they took a while to catch on. There was also 
  the geography problem--in France they were referred to as "Indian" , because 
    they were thought to come from India! They are still called "dindineaux" (not 
  sure my spelling is accurate here) in France. Sometimes turkeys were confused 
  with guinea fowl and other birds. 

  Judging from the illustrations I've seen, period turkeys may have been smaller 
  than ours, but bore as close a resemblance to our turkeys as any other 
  Rennaissance creatures resemble their modern counterparts.

And her request:
  Could you request info on hot water, raised crusts--does anyone have a working 
  recipe?

I saved our discussion from earlier on Hot Water raised crusts, and will send
those along.  Any new information would be welcome!

	schuldy (Tibor in the SCA)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us (Skip Watson)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 00:56:47 -0400
Organization: Auldhaefen Associates
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Distribution: world
Reply-To: ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us (Skip Watson)
Subject: Re: Quote in my .sig
X-Newsreader: Ann 0.9

-> leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
-> Okay, I've had sufficient numbers of people tell me that the couplet in
-> my .sig is wrong, that I feel compelled to answer in this forum rather
-> than to each one individually.  The general feeling of the folks mailing
-> me is, "But beer is much older than 1520."  The short answer: what was
-> known (at least in England) before 1520 was ALE.  BEER started out life
-> as hopped ale.  Nowadays, even a hopped brew can be called ale.  The
-> distinction is, it seems to me, practically religious.
-> 
-> 
-> ---------------
-> Leigh Ann Hussey                                      leighann@sybase.com
-> "Turkeys, heresy, hops and beer / All came to England in the one year."
-> What year was it?
-> Answer: 1520

	Hopes were introduced into England towards the end of the Hundred
Years War by returning soldiers. They had "sampled" a drink in France
called biere and liked it. When they would return home they would take
hops with them. Since the Hundred's Years war ended in 1453, we have hops
in England and being used in biere (called beere in England) before 1520.
It's a good possibility that hops was in England by 1420 so we actually
have beere in England a hundred years before 1520 :-).
	Hops was a plant whose use spread rather rapidly. It turns up in a
lot of things due its preservative abilities. It not only makes it way
into ale, but also mead, herb teas, poor wines, and even food. And for
some reason the English loved the taste of it.

	Heresy was definitely in England before 1520 :-). I guess it
depend on whose heresy we're talking about. 

Skip	
-- 
Internet: ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us    UUCP: ciaran@aldhfn.UUCP
Auldhaefen / World's End BBSes         216 753-8791  (v.32bis)
Auldhaefen Associates                  Email: auldhaefen@aldhfn.akron.oh.us
SCA supplies (herbs, spices, pigments) pricelist available via e-mail
From: scampbe1@metz.une.edu.au (Stephen Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Wanted: Source of 'old' strains of seeds.
Date: 7 Sep 92 04:38:40 GMT
Reply-To: scampbe1@metz.une.edu.au
Originator: scampbe1@metz.une.edu.au

From article <1992Sep1.154439@bnkc08.Bell.CA>, by alex@bnkc08.Bell.CA (Alex Laney):
> Maybe this is not <exactly> the right newsgroup...
> 
> I have heard of 'heritage' seed programs, but I don't know of any addresses.
> 
> Specifically, are there any old strains of tomatoes? Before they became
> hybridized for shipping? I grew some tomatoes from seed this year (admittedly
> not a good year) and the texture was the same as commercial tomatoes trucked
> in from wherever. (And, I don't care for.)
> 
> Are there any other foods which have lost positive qualities during the
> 'modernization' process? That might be grown in a home garden?

In Australia, there are three organisations.
1)	The seed savers network in Byron Bay. They expect you to preserve
	some seed and return it.

2)	Eden Seeds

3)	Pheonix Seeds

I haven't got the addresses with me but if you can import, and are still
interested I can post them to you.

If you can get a copy of Permaculture International you'll also find
the address.

Steve


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Campbell				|	Lead Analyst
scampbe1@metz.une.edu.au		|	MIS Unit
					|	University of New England
					|	Armidale, New South Wales
					|	Australia.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: erck03@castle.ed.ac.uk (John Wexler)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Boiled Pudding Question?
Date: 6 Sep 92 14:31:55 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University Computing Service

In article <23097@sybase.sybase.com>, leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
|> Re: Jello: What is meant by "pudding" in this case is entirely different
|> than what you're accustomed to.  All it really is is a sort of steamed
|> cake.  Think of the traditional Boston Brown Bread.
Agreed, in a general way, but steamed is one method and boiled is
another. The results are recognisably similar, but the boiled variety
tends to be more solid.
|> 
|> Right.  Theories about puddings, which is actually theories about Why
|> English Cooking Is As It Is (IMNSHO):
|> 
|> When most of the population of the Isles lived in the country, on farms,
|> the usual methods of cooking were much as you may see them in recreated
|> Colonial places like Old Sturbridge Village, at an open hearth:
|> roasting, baking, stewing, frying, etc.
You can't bake on an open hearth. Reasonably well to do people had
ovens, others had to manage without.  Oven substitutes (e.g. the "dutch
oven") that worked with an open fire have never been widespread.
|> The Industrial Revolution
|> prompted a mass exodus from the country to the cities, where conditions
|> were much more close, people didn't tend to have a nice big hearth to
|> cook on.  What they did have was a stove.
No they didn't; they had a fireplace. The stove is quite a recent
invention, and built-in iron ovens seem to have predated it.
|> What can you do on a stove?
|> Fry and boil.
As you can on an open fire (also recorded in Dickens).

Actually I agree with almost everything you say, except for the bit
about stoves. Your history of the boiled pudding is about right, but I
believe the method long predates the move into towns (but it wasn't used to cook
sweet puddings, because ordinary folk didn't make such things, having no
access to affordable sugar).

    John Wexler
    Edinburgh
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)
Subject: Re: Lamprey sauce
Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:51:50 GMT

schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>Your local health food store may
>carry spices such as galingale, and you should get to know them.
>My local health food store charges about one fifth of the price
>that my grocery store does.  You might also find galingale in the
>ethnic foods section of your grocery store: check especially the
>hispanic foods section

I have bought galingale in chunks (about the size of my little
fingernail) from the Pepperers' Guild at Pennsic.  But it's September
now, so that's a long way off.  I have also bought powdered galingale
in Vietnamese grocery stores: it comes in an ounce-and-a-half plastic
bottle for $.49 or so.  That's cheaper and more convenient, but I'd
expect that galingale keeps better if it's not ground until you want
to use it.

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca
From: langevin@indian.bbn.com (Tim Langevin)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: RE: Galangal, galingale (galinga)
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:28:15 GMT
Reply-To: langevin@indian.bbn.com. (Tim Langevin)
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com


   There appears to be some confusion about galingale and galangal.
   According to the American Heritage Dictionary, these are the roots
   of two unrelated species, one Asian (galangal, Alpinia officinarum)
   and one European (galingale, Cyperus longus). Galangal was probably 
   named by Europeans who were familiar with galingale and found it 
   similar. I found no reference to galinga.  I have seen (and made)
   Thai recipes that use galangal (and also referred to it as kah), but
   have never seen (though it doesn't prove much, I know...) a Thai
   recipe call for galingale.

   How interchangeable they are in recipes, I can not say...


   As to what Elizabethans used galingale for, I also can't say,
   although perhaps that made a 15th century style Lamprey Sauce... 


Tim Langevin
From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: RE: Galangal, galingale (galinga)
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:52:07 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

langevin@indian.bbn.com (Tim Langevin) writes:
> 
>    There appears to be some confusion about galingale and galangal.
>    According to the American Heritage Dictionary, these are the roots
>    of two unrelated species, one Asian (galangal, Alpinia officinarum)
                                           Zingiberaceae, ginger family.
>    and one European (galingale, Cyperus longus). Galangal was probably 
                                  Cyperaceae, sedge family.

>    How interchangeable they are in recipes, I can not say...

Not very.  Alpinia has a gingery bite to it, while Cyperus rhizomes
taste like dirty potato to me.

Kay Klier  Biology Dept  UNI
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Call for references...
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:40:49 GMT
Followup-To: rec.food.historic

Charlie Sorsby wrote looking for references.  What kind of references
do you want?  Books about the history of food, or old cookbooks?  Books
with talk about food, or books with historical recipes, or books with
modern versions of historical recipes?  From what times and places?

You really don't want even all the _introductory_ stuff people will
send you without answers to these.... /8^}

Having said which, Reay Tannahill's _Food in History_ does come to mind....

Cheers,

Terry Nutter     Blacksburg, VA     jtn@vtopus.cs.vt.edu     (703)552-1598
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Subject: Re: Lamprey sauce
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:00:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.225150.4095@ccu.umanitoba.ca> sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch) writes:
>I have also bought powdered galingale
>in Vietnamese grocery stores: it comes in an ounce-and-a-half plastic
>bottle for $.49 or so.  That's cheaper and more convenient, but I'd
>expect that galingale keeps better if it's not ground until you want
>to use it.

For a decent replacement for galingale/galanga(l):  Use grated fresh ginger
to make yourself a cup of tea.  Use twice as much post-decocted ginger
as is referred to in the recipe, to substitute for galingale.

Galanga (the name I first learned it by...) is a close cousin of ginger.
American Wild Ginger, dried and ground, works at about 1/2 t per t of
galingale called for in the recipe, and is a better substitute IMO,
but not all of us have wild ginger at hand...

Bon appetit!

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: lmanning@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Laura Manning)
Subject: galyngale
Organization: The John P. Robarts Research Institute, London, Ontario
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:43:12 GMT
Followup-To: the multiposts 


I was happy to discover that there were other
people out there that had heard of galyngale. I use it in
a dessert called rapeye. A pastry (or deep fried pastry)
filled with dates, figs and an ingredient which escapes me.
The filling is more or less cooked in ale and seasoned
with cloves, cinnamon, nutmeg and galyngale.

It's heavy but I really like it. Interesting flavour combination.

 
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (John Lamp)
Subject: Re: Quote in my .sig
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:15:02 GMT

dadams@cray.com (David Adams) writes:

>|Leigh Ann Hussey                                      leighann@sybase.com
>|"Turkeys, heresy, hops and beer / All came to England in the one year."
>|What year was it?
>|Answer: 1520

>But certainly there was heresy in England before 1520?   ;^)

>BTW, Does anybody know how to brew up a good batch of heresies?  ;^)

Heresies
--------

Take one rigid social order, add a ruling social class which will stop at
nothing to retain power.  Heat until unrest can clearly be seen changing
expectations at the lower class levels.  Maintain heat until the activated
classes begin to act for themselves.  Heresy will begin to emerge as a
previously unnoticed social or ethical comment.  (Advanced cooks may wish
to add external distruptive influences at this time for multiple heresies.)

This is not an easy recipe, as heresies are only heresies when viewed from
the perspective of the ruling social class, if perspective is not
maintained they may seem legitimate aspirations or alternatives. 
Excessive heat will result in the destruction of the ruling social class
and possible adoption of the heresies as orthodoxy, thus defeating the
purpose of the recipe.

Cheers
John
:->



--
   _--_|\             John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
  /      \                 Phone: 002 23 1366 - Fax: 002 34 5685
  \_.--._/                   email: u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au
        v <-----------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: kiran@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle)
Subject: Re: galingale (aka galinga)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 05:42:40 GMT

hooverb@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Bruce Hoover,Armstrong) writes:

>Galangal is a rhizome (like ginger). If you are really lucky, you may
>find it fresh at a good oriental grocers. I suspect that you can also
>keep it alive and growing, just as you can with ginger. (Sand in a dark
>place, etc.). 

Better oriental grocers will also have it frozen, along with kaffir
lime leaves, bird peppers, and other yummies.
-- 
Kiran Wagle <kiran@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: toxins in food
Date: 12 Sep 92 00:50:18 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <23129@sybase.sybase.com> leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
>Along this line, I've often wondered.  How do people discover that foods
>that require an immense amount of processing to make them good to eat,
>actually are good to eat?  What possesses them to take the time to
>figure out how much processing it takes?  
>Who the hell discovered that tapioca was
>eventually edible, and how many people had to die beforehand?

Well, Leigh Ann won't be surprised to see me post this, but there is always
that possibility of divine providence...  (If the rationalists in the
group will pardon me for a brief moment...)

Most cultures refer to many of their foods as gifts of the gods (for 
exmaple, the olive from the goddess Athena...).  Many current indiginous
cultures still refer to the plants "speaking to them" about their virtues.
Maybe there is something going on here above and beyond trial and (deadly?)
error?

And if you don't believe in that, you should go read Marvin Harris' Cows,_
Pigs,_Wars,_and_Witches for a rational anthropological explanation of 
a lot of this...

Me?  Of course, I'm agnostic, and so is my spirit guide...;)

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: mcolthea@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (Max Coltheart)
Subject: Re: galingale (aka galinga)
Organization: Macquarie University, Australia.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:17:51 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.225150.4095@ccu.umanitoba.ca> sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch) writes:
>schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>>Your local health food store may
>>carry spices such as galingale, and you should get to know them.
>>My local health food store charges about one fifth of the price
>>that my grocery store does.  You might also find galingale in the
>>ethnic foods section of your grocery store: check especially the
>>hispanic foods section
>
>I have bought galingale in chunks (about the size of my little
>fingernail) from the Pepperers' Guild at Pennsic.  But it's September
>now, so that's a long way off.  I have also bought powdered galingale
>in Vietnamese grocery stores: it comes in an ounce-and-a-half plastic
>bottle for $.49 or so.  That's cheaper and more convenient, but I'd
>expect that galingale keeps better if it's not ground until you want
>to use it.

Some herbs dry badly - dried basil tastes like tea, dried tarragon tastes of nothing much - but dried powdered galinga still tastes like the fresh version.
Widely used in Thai cooking particularly in chicken & coconut soup.

What did the Elizabethans do with it, I wonder?

MaxC