HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Questions AFfter First Silmarillion Reading
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:00:42 GMT

In article <C1GyJI.KpI@unix.amherst.edu> jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
>
>Does /Quenta Silmarillion/ correspond to the First Age, the /Akallabeth/
>and the downfall of the Numenor the Second and then Isildur onward the
>Third?

Pretty much. The First Age (aka "The Elder Years") ended when the Host
of Valinor overthrew Morgoth and forced him into the Outer Darkness.
I'm not sure when the First Age formally "began": it might have been
when the Valar arrived in Ea, but it might not have been until the
Elves were Awakened.  (Funny how often you Capitalize inappropriate
Words when you're talking about the History of Middle-Earth.)

The Second Age was, by and large, the age of Numenor. But the Second
Age didn't end with the fall of Numenor; it ended a few years after
that, when the Last Alliance overthrew Sauron and Isildur took the
Ring.

The Third Age ended when the Ring was destroyed. The Fourth Age didn't
actually begin until a couple of years later, when the Three Rings
passed from Middle-Earth.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: os2man@panix.com (Larry Salomon Jr.)
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Distribution: alt.fan.tolkien
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:55:50 GMT

In <C15zDr.E6n@news.udel.edu> timster@brahms.udel.edu (Timothy P Brennan) writes:

>I don't if anyone has mentioned this yet, but there are a few Tolkien
>references in some Led Zeppelin songs.

>Misty Mountain Hop (title only as far as I know)
>Ramble On ("In the darkest depths of Mordor I met a girl so fair
>            But Gollum and the evil one crept up and slipped away with her")
>Battle of Evermore ("... The Ringwraiths ride in black...")

>Anybody know of anymore Tolkien references by Led Zeppelin?

No, but I would not forget "Rivendell" by RUSH (on "Fly By Night", I
believe), which is an entire song dedicated to the Elven haven in the
Misty Mountains.

Cheers,
Q
-- 
"If you choose not to decide, you  | "My other body is in the shop" - seen
 still have made a choice" - Rush  |  on a T-shirt
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: crerar@rodan.UU.NET (Andy Crerar)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Fandom
Date: 21 Jan 1993 09:39:02 -0500
Organization: UUNET Technologies Inc, Falls Church, VA
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net

In article <8254@kielo.uta.fi> f1toyl@uta.fi (Topi Ylinen) writes:
[Much talk about Wagner's Ring Cycle...]
>The plotline itself is quite complicated and I think even synopsis would
>be too long to post here (I have been writing one, it is 6 pages long and
>incomplete).

I agree with you completely about Wagner, especially his Ring Cycle.  Some
of my favorite music, although I "discovered" Wagner a lot later in life 
than I did Tolkien.  

As for a summary of the plot of the Ring, try to find a copy of "The (First)
Anna Russel Farewell Concert."  She gives a complete, accurate, and very
funny musical summary of the whole thing in about ten minutes.  The text
would probably be under six pages long, if it were copied out, but it 
wouldn't be nearly as funny.

>#################Topi#Ylinen#(f1toyl@kielo.uta.fi)###########################

-Andy
-- 
Andy Crerar                     crerar@uunet.uu.net
CS Administrative Asst.         uunet!crerar
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Fandom
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:19:51 GMT

In article <C0xK22.CHC@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, dmeek@ccu () writes:
>	
>    "The Fionavar Tapestry" fantasy trilogy by Guy Gavriel Kay rivals LOTR
>in depth.Many critics have compared this series to LOTR because of its
>depth, and some have said it is the best work of fantasy since LOTR.

What most critics mean when they compare a book or set of related books to
Tolkien is that they haven't encountered any other work that they can think of
to compare it to, or that they think the reading public is likely to have
encountered.

I have not read Kay's books--simply for lack of time.  Ditto Eddings.

But one of the things that keeps me from making time is critical comparisons to
_LotR_, because I know that the critics are probably being lazy, or intellectu-
ally dishonest.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Fandom
Date: 23 Jan 1993 00:14:52 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <2088@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:

>I would recommend for Mr. Akella, if he hasn't already read them, the other
>2 books of the Earthsea trilgy, and particularly "The Tombs of Atuan".

Don't forget that there is now a fourth book of the Earthsea "trilogy."
It is called _Tehanu_, and while I have read postings by some people
who did not like it as much as the other books, I enjoyed it a lot.
It's about a lot of things, but one is how Ged adjusts to being without
his magic.


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: slogan@mta.ca (Relic)
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Reply-To: slogan@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:46:34 GMT

In article <1k0sthINNpj4@digex.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiew
icz) writes:

>But this raises a problem for me.  At the end of LOTR, Frodo and Bilbo
>take the last ship to the Undying Lands.  Later, the appendices tell us,
>Sam took a ship west to join them.
>But if Hobbits are racially derived from men, isn't this a problem?
>Aren't men strictly forbidden from going to the Undying Lands?

 I can't back this up at the moment but as far as I was and have been 
concerned they, being Frodo and Sam were allowed to sail to the Undying 
lands as they had been bearers of the ring. Flame away if you want, but I
was farely cerain that was the reason for. If I am totaly off feal free
to e-mail me or post it. I like to know when I wrong.
From: blyon@wbst845e.xerox.com (Bruce Lyon)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Dwarves & Jews, Language origins
Keywords: Dwarves, Jews, Languages
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:57:40 GMT
Reply-To: blyon@wbst845e.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation



	In "The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien" there are a
couple of refernces to this isssue.

	In letter 176, Tolkien says:

	I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews:  at once
native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages
of their country, but with an accent due to thier own private tongue...

	In letter 297, discussing the word 'Moria' he says:

	As for the land of 'Moriah,' (note stress): that has
no connexion (even 'externally') whatsoever.  Internally there
is no conceivable connexion between the mining of the Dwarves,
and the story of Abraham.  My mind does not work that way; and
(in my view) you are led astray by a purely fortuitous similarity,
more obvious in spelling than speech, which cannot be justified
from the real intended significance of my story.

	In this same letter, Tolkien denies that various words
in his invented languages are related to words in real ones.  The
only deliberate exception is Earendil, which is chosen to echo a
name found in Anglo-Saxon and Eddic sources (see 'Aurvandil,' a
minor character in the story of Thor's duel with Hrungnir, and also
the Anglo-Saxon poem "Crist" (the most important source)).

			Bruce Lyon
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Subject: Mythos (Was: Re: Geography of M.E. Was: (Re: Blue Wizards?))
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:31:54 GMT

jjonsson@alexandria.lib.utah.edu writes:

[...]
>I read in some book of criticism that Middle Earth is our own earth before 
>the dawn of recorded history. Tolkien envisioned it as a system of myth 
>which would take its place beside the gods and myths of the ancient Greeks 
>and Romans. Primarily he intended it to be a system of myth for his own 
>country to call its own, saying at some point that England had no myths, no 
>magic, no past to truly call its own. (I disagree, just think of Arthurian 
>Legend.)

Nooooooooooo -- JRRT wanted a specifically _English_ epic and mythos,
not a _British_ one. After all, who was it Arthur fought? And what
nations gave rise to the _Mabinogion_, and later the Romance of Arthur?
The same ones JRRT had some fairly nasty things to say about in one
or more letters ... although at least he had enough sense to admire
the Welsh language. Hmmm, I hope I'm not starting The Great A.F.T.
Civil War :-)

The Eddas and Sagas were the common heritage of Norse and Saxon, but
taken as-is they were just too pagan for JRRT. He wanted Powers in his
world that were not just another, stronger gang of warriors that his
own characters would be subject to.

-- Craig "Nae gae gettin' my Celtic blood up, now" Presson
  "This tale grew in the telling ..."
From: johnsc3@jec313.its.rpi.edu (Craig F. Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Beren and Luthien
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:48:32 GMT
Reply-To: johnsc3@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.

OK,

I just noticed this newsgroup and read everything in it over the past 48 hours.

I never thought there could be this many people who love this man's works like I
do.

Anyway,
I have a couple of questions which I would like some answers to if anyone knows them.  First, is there anything else written about the story of Beren's life, or his love with Luthien other than what is written in the Quenta Simarillion?  I have been looking since I first read Sim(about 7 or 8 years ago)  I can not get this story out of my head, and I would appreciate the help. 

The second is purely speculation, and I am curious about the feelings of others on this -- is Sting, the 'sword' carried by Bilbo and later Frodo, actually Angcrist (Sp?), the dagger which Beren took from Celegorm and later cut the Simaril from the Iron Crown with?  I have been unable to find any information either for or against this theory (it is possible that I have missed something in something that Christopher Tolkien has published).

Stand and be true
Wolf

.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rjackson@laplace.uwaterloo.ca (Darkman)
Subject: Re: Fate of Tuor
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:45:01 GMT

In article <1jv842INNhvj@gap.caltech.edu>, damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) writes:
> As I remember one Man escaped the Gift/Doom of Men: that when Idril tired
> of Middle-Earth, and Tuor was passing through his middle-age, that the two
> of them took up the first Elessar and set sail for the West, even though
> the Ban of the Valar was still up, barring the Noldor from returning.  And that
> it was thought that they made it and that Tuor, alone among pure-blooded men
> was allowed to change his doom and follow the fate of the Firstborn.  Any
> corrections/comments?
> 
> And BTW: what happened to Tuor, Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, etc. when they chose
> their fates?  Did their ears change shape or something?  Was it a matter
> of 'becoming' elves or just of assuming their fate?

If I remember correctly, They would just assume their fates.
The reason I think this is that when Aragorn first met Arwen, he seemed to think that she was human but was told that she had Elven life.  Also the LOTR seems to describe the sons of Elrond more as men than Elves.  This indicates to me that they would only get the fate of the Eldar not the shape.

Darkman
May the vermin from the depths of Hades arise and vomit on your eyeballs!
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Sorcerers (Was Power of Races)
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:19:32 GMT

In article <1j74neINNof2@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, zombie@EBay (zombie) writes:
>In article 1j6p4vINNc2g@rodan.UU.NET,  crerar@rodan.UU.NET (Andy Crerar) writes:
>[...]
>>
>>My questions are, basically, are there any other sorcerers in Tolkien's 
>>cosmos, and where did the Mouth of Sauron come from?  
>
>I just reread LOTR and it described the Captain of the Nine "who was
>Fell King of Men and Sorcerer" or some such.  If you like, I could
>bring in the book and post the quote and tell you where it is located
>in the story.  It confused me because I had always thought that
>sorcerers were all Maia, so how could a man be a sorcerer?

Everyone seems to have confused several terms here:

The Istari are referred to as *wizards*, not as sorcerors.  There is a
difference in connotation between the two words, with sorceror implying
something a bit nasty about the practitioner.  In another mythos, Merlin was a
*wizard*, Morgan le Fay a *sorceress*.

A *seer* is not a magician at all, but simply someone who can see the future
*by some innate ability*.

A *necromancer* is a sorceror who specializes in communication with and control
of the dead.  (Further, it *sounds* more ominous.  :-)
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: POPULATION OF GONDOR
Date: 22 Jan 1993 09:21:15 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.ubc.ca

>Besides, no doubt the ships were not small.  Remember, we are talking
>Numenor at it's height of power.

Even so, it's hard to believe there would be more than about 1000 passengers on
each (probably much less), and the Kingdoms in Exile seem to have _at least_
a few hundred thousand people, considering all the "cities" mentioned. So
whether they are big ships or small seems to be pretty irrelevant....

Drin
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think I think, therefore I think I am." 
- Descartes' failed attempt to discard the notion of objective reality.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Fandom
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 15:52:55 GMT

In article <1k0r8kINNnro@digex.digex.com>, dzik@access (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>In article <watson.727458148@capella.sce.carleton.ca> watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson) writes:

>>Note that "Earthsea" (with the possible exception of the 4th book) was, like
>>the Hobbit, intended as children's literature (at least so I believe).
>
>My impression is that "Earthsea" is more for what is called the "young adult"
>market then as children's literature.  A fine distinction, I know.
>
>In any event, whether for children, young adults, or adults, "Earthsea" is
>excellent.  And, in fact, there are many other fantasy gems that can be found
>in the young adult section of the bookstore.  I'd also recommend "The
>Chronicles of Prydain", five books by Lloyd Alexander starting with "The book
>of three" and proceeding through four others.  Highly recommended, and
>excellent fantasy with the emphasis being the coming of age of the central
>character, Taran the assistant pig-keeper.

There is apparently a sixth volume that collects some short stories set in the
same milieu, that of the _Mabinogion_.  I've only seen it mentioned in offers
from the Science Fiction Book Club, so I don't know about its general availa-
bility.

However, these have almost no sense of history behind them, are rather simply
rollicking good tales based on Welsh myth and legend.

>Also, as long as we're talking about fantasy novels, how about the spate of
>books based on the Arthur legends?  My favorites are "The Once and Future
>King" and "The Mists of Avalon".  I find that these have a significant amount
>of depth, perhaps because they are based on real legends.  (Although the
>things TH White does to history in "The Once and Future King" are a bit of a
>stretch.  He replaces William the Conqueror with Uther Pendragon and proceeds
>to make Arthur an early Norman.)

Well, White simply made explicit what the usual treatments of Arthurian legend
did anyway, which is to say, he moved it out of the darkness of 4th century
Britain into the light of 12th century troubadours' songs of chivalry.  (I
liked the dates assigned to Uther Pendragon:  1066-1215.)

Most of what we think of as Arthurian is derived from Chretien de Troyes and
his confreres, based in turn on Geoffry of Monmouth, rather than on the
_Mabinogion_.  I can't address the Bradley book, since I still haven't gotten
around to it, but Stewart's books were very interesting--G of M, Layamon, and
_Mabinogion_.

But again, none of them answer to the question posed originally:  A single
author's invention with the same feel of long history behind it, all invented.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Language Origins
Date: 21 Jan 93 11:33:34 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:

>In article <C13pyt.MyF@panix.com> os2man@panix.com (Larry Salomon Jr.) writes:
>>Does anyone know from where the Elven and Dwarven languages are derived?
>>Dwarven *definately* sounds Middle-Eastern and Elven sounds like what I
>>imagine European would sound like if there were a single language for that
>>continent.
>>

Tolkien's languages are wholly his own inventions. However, he did get
inspiration from real languages. Quenya is constructed to soun like
Finnish, while Sindarin is inspired by Welsh.

>	I'm not a linguist, so there may be no basis at all to what I say here,
>but I think there are reasons to suspect that Tolkien partially derived 
>Dwarven language from Hebrew.  I'm thinking particularly the "Ben-Adar" part
>of the Dwarves name for Tom Bombadil 

Khuzdul is semitic in structure. The consonant-combination kh-z-d means
dwarf. Words such as dwarf (khazad) and dwarven (khuzdul) are made by adding
wovels (and the occasional consonant). Semitic languages work in that way
too.

But Iarwain ben-adar is Sindarin, not Khuzdul. It means oldest and
fatherless. Since adar "father" is well known from other bits of
Sindarin, ben must mean without.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:52:45 GMT

In article <watson.727716248@mariner.sce.carleton.ca> watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson) writes:
>rcb3654@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>
>
>>However, Zep's most popular song, "Stairway to Heaven", has a reference to 
>>JRRT in that the lyrics go something like this (and there's a lady who's
>>sure **all that glitters is gold** and she's buying a stariway to heaven).
>
>["All that glitters is not gold" is] an ancient and well-known saying
>in Western culture, and there's no reason think that JRRT was the
>specific source for the line in the LZ song.

Besides, I can't recall Tolkien using the saying in LOTR. The closest
I can recall is Bilbo's poem about Aragorn, which begins "All that is
gold does not glitter", which turns the saying on its head; Bilbo's
line asserts that something valuable may appear plain, whereas the
proverb asserts that something showy may be worthless.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Dwarves & Jews, Language origins
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Keywords: Dwarves, Jews, Languages
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 15:51:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.191155.3258@leland.Stanford.EDU>, jchokey@leland (James Alexander Chokey) writes:

[discussion of whether or not JRRT was telling the truth when he said that
Moria and Moriah had nothing to do with each other deleted]

On the issue of evidence for the Jewishness of Tolkien's Dwarves:

>If only one or two of these things were present, it would be easy to disregard
>them as a mere coincidence.  But the existence of all of them makes me a
>little more skeptical if we aren't, like Tolkien, also supposed to think of
>the Dwarves as Jews. There was in Nazi Germany at this time, a body of offical
>anti-Semitic interpretations of Wagner's _Ring_ cycle, in which the evil Dwarf
>in _Das Rheingold_ was said to represent the evils of the Jews.  I really
>can't help but wonder whether or not Tolkien might be trying to "answer" such
>Nazi propoganda in LOTR by investing in the Dwarves certain characteristics
>that might cause people to associate them with Jews, including having a
>sterotype of greediness placed on them, but actually portraying them as a
>great and noble people whose bad reputation is really undeserved.

First, I think you are reading too much into this.

Second, it wasn't the Nazis who first interpreted Wagner's Ring cycle as
anti-Semitic, but Richard Wagner.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: gds@FICUS.CS.UCLA.EDU (Daeron the Minstrel)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:52:10 GMT
Reply-To: gds@CS.UCLA.EDU (Daeron the Minstrel)
Organization: in your face!

In article <1993Jan25.202454.20380@netcom.com> Andrew Solovay wrote:
>In article <1k0sthINNpj4@digex.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>>But this raises a problem for me.  At the end of LOTR, Frodo and Bilbo
>>take the last ship to the Undying Lands.  Later, the appendices tell us,
>>Sam took a ship west to join them.
>>But if Hobbits are racially derived from men, isn't this a problem?
>>Aren't men strictly forbidden from going to the Undying Lands?

Men were forbidden to go to the Undying Lands (that includes Eressea),
otherwise it would not have been a problem for the Numenoreans to sail
there.  The most far-sighted of them could see it from time to time,
on a clear day, from the Meneltarma or from a tall ship sailing west
of Numenor.

>As a general rule, yes. This seems to be an exception. But we have no
>indication that Bilbo and Frodo went to Valinor proper; my reading is
>that they went to Tol Eressea (aka "Elvenhome"), an island near
>Valinor.  This may count as a "suburb" of the Undying Lands, and the
>restriction may be less rigorous.

Men are permitted to go to the Undying Lands by the Valar's grace.

--gregbo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien