From: sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari)
Subject: Re: IRAN, AFGHANISTAN, THE ARABS etc. (RE: BABAK )
Originator: sehari@class1.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University of Science and Technology, Ames, Iowa.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:41:12 GMT

In <19509.2b2bb452@levels.unisa.edu.au> 8809787l@levels.unisa.edu.au writes:

>Dorood Bar Shoma Iranianeh Aziz


>I have been observing some of the latest discussions on the SCI
>in regards to nationalism ( which I have already expressed my
>views on in an article to SCI some weeks ago ) and other matters
>relating to Afghanistan etc.

>I have also seen some comments made in regards to Mr Sehari's
>comments on this matters. Some the comments were from Iranians
>and others from some of our Afghan friends on the net.

>Well I again have come to the conclusion that I must really say
>something and so hopefully contribute the discussions taking
>place presently on SCI regarding the above mentioned matters.

>Firstly let me say that all of you out there must bare with me
>as my present posting is to be fairly long and so please do
>excuse me for taking so much bandwidth, but I do feel and hope
>that you may find this posting of some use in reference to some
>of the current issues presently being undertaken.

>Lets initially look at the historical, geographical and tribal
>make up of the nation know as IRAN. The one thing which we should
>always take into consideration is that very little written or
>other types of documents remain from the Iranians themselves in
>regards to their own history, and this is the reason that we must
>rely heavily on foreign ( mainly Western ) historical documents
>to deduce any significant information on our back ground.

>From what has been found in terms of archaeological finds it is
>apparent that some 6000 years before Christ ( 6000 BC ) there
>were farming and organised village communities [1] and also
>excavations at Sharh-i-Sokhla ( south-east Iran ) have showed
>evidence of flourishing city and trading centres in Iran as far
>back as 3000 BC. We must also take into consideration the recent
>reports of a 10000 year old city found in recent excavations in
>Iran. These and other finds have conclusively shown that some of
>the earliest known prehistoric settlements took place in Iran.

>The people that did populate these regions in the indicated
>period were not the Aryan tribes which were to dominate the
>worlds affairs for many centuries to come but these were people
>who originated probably from central Asia. 
>It must be noted here that although we talk about the great
>PERSIAN EMPIRE of CYRUS THE GREAT but the piece of history which
>we have been looking at above simply means IRAN HAS HAD
>CIVILIZATION ( ie. organised cities and trade place ) FOR OVER
>10000 YEARS,in contrast Mesopotamia ( Iraq ) , Egypt and
>Phoenicians and Hebrews have their beginnings marked as 3000 BC
>or 5000 years ago and the Indians and Chinese have their epochs
>of civilization as 2000 to 2500 BC which simply means 4000 to
>4500 years ago [2]. ( I have mentioned this as many times in the
>SCI I have seen many people having doubts about these dates and
>so comparisons of the histories of these countries ).

>The Aryan influx into what is now Iran began some 3000 years ago
>( about 1000 BC ). These Aryans ( or noble tribes as the word
>Aryan has this meaning ) were from the siberian regions of what
>use to be the USSR ( originally from northern europe ). As these
>Aryan tribes moved south a group also entered northern India.
>The Aryans who entered Iran broke into two groups and later into
>rival kingdoms know as the Medians ( Madha ) and the Persian (
>Parsa ). The Medians settled just south of the Caspian Sea in
>what is now present day Hamadan, and the Persians settled farther
>south towards the Persian Gulf. Also it must be mentioned that
>the present day people of Georgia ( Gorjestan ), Armenia (
>Armanestan ) and Azarbaijan which were part of USSR are all from
>the same Aryan tribes which eventually settled in Iran as the
>Medes and the Persians.

>It was around 546 BC that CYRUS THE GREAT for the first time
>united all of these tribes and formed what was THE GREATEST
>EMPIRE that the WORLD HAD EVER SEEN. Also IRAN BECAME THE FIRST
>SUPER POWER OF THE WORLD [3]. During this period of Achaemenid
>( Hakhamaneshy ) Empire Iran went through a era of prosperity and
>advancement the likes of which have rarely appeared again in
>world history both for Iran and for any other country.

>Many road systems were developed  one of which ran across the
>Empire connecting the Aegean coast to Susa the capital ( some
>1600 miles or 2500 kilometres. This was a royal pathway for the
>kings messengers, it contained some 111 post-stations and
>messengers changing horses could complete the route in ONE WEEK.
>This road and others like it which were networked throughout the
>Empire were a precedent for the famous Roman roads.

>Many other marvels of the civil engineering of that period could
>be seen in places such as PASARGADAE, PERSEPOLIS, Ecbatana (
>Hamadan ) and SUSA.

>Also among the greatest of all Achaemenids achievements was that
>of the system of government and law. It is because of this that
>CYRUS and DIRUS (I) have gone down in history as the two of the
>World's greatest law-givers " The Law of the Medes and the
>Persians" [4].

>It was these same Iranians That later in their history after the
>invasion of the Arabs introduced the ways of Civilization and
>Scientific Knowledge to the invading Barbarians.
>Here I must explain what is meant firstly by the word ARAB and
>the word BARBARIAN.

>The word Arab today refers to inhabitants of such countries as
>Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan etc. because of the language
>which these people speak. When I used the word Arab above I meant
>the inhabitants of what is now Saudi Arabia ( ie. were the
>prophet Mohammed came from ). This term I believe should only be
>used in context of the people of Saudi Arabia as Egyptians etc
>who may speak arabic are not arabs as we know this from their
>geographical, racial and historical back ground.

>And the word barbaric refers to uncivilized ie. people who life
>in an unorganised social group with no laws or regards for
>individuals within their community.

>I do know that some people may object but the reality of the
>matter is that at the time ( ie. 1300 years ago ) the arabs (
>saudi-arabians ) were uncivilized , barbaric, thoughtless and
>unorganised , but some organisation was provided to them by the
>prophet mohammed through his spiritual and social teachings this
>together with the fact that the SASSANIAN Empire had for many
>years suffered from internal corruption lead to the over throw
>of the king and the arabs took over.

>This period again was a time of flourishment of the Iranian
>culture and art in the following sense. Iranians have always over
>powered their invaders after accepting them, in this case they
>accepted Islam but indirectly took over the governmental systems
>and other systems of rule. This was due to the arabs not being
>able to handle the vast Empire which they had acquired. This
>process has occurred many times in Iranian history [5].

>In the same way what we hear in the West about the so called Arab
>genius during the Islamic times in the areas of politics, Science
>( ie. medicine, physics, chemistry, astronomy and astrology and
>mathematics and philosophy and literature (poetry etc ))Mystesim
>are mostly the works of great IRANIANS who had to write in Arabic
>as this was the official language. Some of the greatest of
>philosopher and physicians such as Razy and Avecina were
>Iranians, also FARABI the philosopher who introduced philosophy
>to the arabs and who was the first to write a treatise on music
>in the Islamic world. It has also been noted by Khaleghi one of
>Irans renowned musicians of modern Iran that what is called
>Turkish or Arabic Music now is a variation of the Iranian music
>which was introduced to these people during the Islamic period
>ad the arabs specially did not poses any form of what can be
>classified as music. This is the same as medicine all of these
>sciences were introduced by Iranians to the invading arabs and
>even their eventual research and development in these areas were
>made by the Iranians themselves, and as mentioned before all of
>the significant scientists of the period who stood out of the
>rest were mostly Iranians (ie more than 80% of them ).

>It is here that I want to say that being proud of ones heritage
>is not prejudice. Some may think some Iranians are prejudice
>because of such comments which I have made here but I would like
>to tell you that this is absolutely incorrect and people should
>know that although Iranians are decedents of the Aryan tribes of
>europe but the so called raciest attitudes of the europeans have
>never been found in our country as history shows.

>Who would have been more nationalist than CYRUS the great and we
>know that he was the saviour of all of his people including the
>people whose lands he gained in battle and for the period which
>he ruled Iran he had always respected all of his people and their
>individual cultures and religions.

>We are as can be seen made up of many different tribes in the
>region and have learned to live with each over the 100's of
>centuries and the tribes described encompass peoples of such
>countries as Afghanistan and many of the caspian sea countries.
>This was evident right upto the last century. 

>This why I believe that Mr Sehari can not be put down by
>suggesting that countries such as Afghanistan could be part of
>a Iranian federation. This is not because Iran may seek to
>undermined the Afghan peoples sovrenty but it is due to the fact
>that because of their close religious , cultural and historical
>ties such countries should unit and not split as many are doing
>so in a turbulent world which we are seeing at the moment.
>Such moves would be beneficial for all parties . Let me just say
>that before such moves could take place countries like Iran and
>Afghanistan would have to become stable both economically and
>politically and socially. This means that civil war and fenatisim
>must give way to freedom and democracy.

>Iran forexample is in a situation which is unmatched since the
>collapse of the PERSIAN EMPIRE some 2000 years ago or the Arab
>invasion some 1300 years ago. We have seen that even under the
>Arab rulers we experienced prosperity during some periods , but
>yes this time we have been invaded by our own gang of lutes and
>ravagers and this is a new experience for us. As always we have
>been invaded from outside never from within. Any way once Iran
>and our other neighbours start to move towards democracy then a
>situation will eventuate which may result in closer ties and
>cooperation.


>Ghorbaneh Shoma

>Payam
>#! rnews 1078
>Path: levels!8809787l
>From: 8809787l@levels.unisa.edu.au
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
>Subject: RE: IRAN, AFGHANESTAN, THE ARABS etc. (RE: BABAK )
>Message-ID: <19510.2b2bb78e@levels.unisa.edu.au>
>Date: 13 Dec 92 22:22:06 +1030
>Organization: University of South Australia
>Lines: 30

>Doostan Salam

>I just wanted to give you the list of the references which I mensioned in my
>last posting about Iran and its history etc.

>1) The Last Two Million Years, Published by Reader's Digest Association 1973

>2) The Persians, by Jim Hicks ( Time-Life Books ) 1975

>3) The New Illustrated History of the World: The Awakening of Man 250000 BC to
>   100 BC, by Postgate, Hawkins and Kemp, 1970

>4) Islam and the Arab World, by Knopf, published by American Heritage
>   publishing, 1976

>5) Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition 1910

>6) Ancient Civilizations: PERSIA I from origins to the Achaemenids,by
>   Jean-Louis Huot, 1971

>7) The Cambridge History of ISLAM ( volume 2 ), by Holt, Lambton & Lewis 1970



>Well these are all the references for my last posting.

>Ghorbaneh Shoma

>payam

Payam good article, but you forgot to include two point:

Point 1: Partian (the originator of afghan people) were part of the original
         Iranian tribes.

Point 2: Iranian revolution was, what people of Iran wanted.  In any 
         revolution there are periods of unrest, and Iranian revolution
         were no exception.  French revolution had 20 years of terror 
         period.  There had been positive and negative things in our
         revolution as well.  Even though, I should confess that in my
         own family we had people from both side of issue at the beginning
        of revolution.  People, who were supporting it dearly, and people
         who opposed it dearly. However, most of them were many shades grey
         in between.  The problem with dearly supporters and dearly rejectors
         were that they only see themselves and all the people around them
         who agree with them.  They totally closed their eyes to majority
         of people.  For example, my uncle who was an alcoholic and was 
         X-communicated by most of  our relatives, were among rejectors of
         the revolution.  His reason as you might suspect were lack of
         alcoholic material for his consumption.  This reason to most of
         in between people such as myself was not a good reason for
         opposing the revolution.   On the other side we had my grand father
         who was %100 religious person and blindly loved revolution.  He was
         around 70 years old when Iran-Iraq war started.  He was among the
         first to volunteer for war.  Even though, they did not accept him
         because he was very old and weak.  For years, his job was to help
         the war effort in any way he could help. Even though, this was a
         good reason for supporting the revolution; however, he would have
         supported government for canceling the nuclear reactors at the
         beginning of the revolution just because it was done by a government
         supported by Ayatolah Khomani.  Even though, most people would take
         issue with him that this is a wrong move.  Neither my grand father
         nor my uncle used to listen to others, what they saw was only their
         close circle of friends.  Later, I discovered many people are like
         them. I found people who oppose revolution because it out lawed
         prostitution, sex movies, or just because they wanted to take over
         and create their own kingdom, like mojaheadines.  I also found
         people on the other side who love revolution because they wanted
         to use revolution as a step for their own progress, financially
         and otherwise.
         To me a person who rejects or accepts the whole thing is very
         suspicious to say the least. Most Iranian people, like me, have mixed
         feeling about the revolution.  They like many aspect of it, and
         they are uneasy with some other policies.  Nevertheless, this true
         about any other government in the world. No mater where you go,
         USSR, China, USA, Europe, ... this is the case.

                       With highest regards,
                            Babak   Sehari.

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