From: nobby@milton.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Reply to S. Borodin (was: Antisemitism and Verbitsky)
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:30:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov6.003025.21354
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1dcajdINNpi7@rodan.UU.NET> avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov) writes:
>In article <Bx9L81.DIL@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>>    By 1917, the country had been mismanaged so badly that the
>>    population revolted and, as a result, the ruling elite was 
>>    thrown out of power.  After the Civil War, and until WWII
>>    began, the country was ruled by ethnic minorities - the Jews,
>>    Georgians, Latvians, etc - and it was during that period of
>>    time that the state became considerably less chauvinistic, 
>>    and anti-semitism was all but gone.
>
>Gone? Dozens of millions of Russians gone by efforts of that less
>chauvinistic state. It is not entrance exams. It was genocide. 
>Or wasn't it chukcha Trotskiy who invented the "red terror"?
>

Agreed. The initial statement (about ethnic tolerance of Stalin's
government) was pretty odd indeed. However, your use of term
'genocide' implies the deliberate action on behalf of some group of
people aimed at the extermination of Russian population as such.
Either elaborate what group do you suspect in this heinous crime,
or don't play with the word 'genocide'.

I would say that before WWII Communist regime was tough on everybody 
and persecution was carried over regardless of ethnicity of the victims.

>Now do everybody understand WHAT racism is and WHO racist is?
>
>How THIS moron have a nerve to throw shit to Russia?!!
>
>>    The Russians returned to power after WWII, and brought with 
>>    them the traditional great-russian chauvinism, extreme racial
>>    and ethnic intolerance and, yes, anti-semitism.
>
>I'm still amazed by patience by people who even do not hate Jews,
>Georgians and Latvians after what the first (and i hope the last)
>non-Russian government did. Fortunately ethnical hatred and
>egotism aren't even remotely typical for Russian.
>    
>>    By 1991, the country had been mismanaged so badly that the
>>    population revolted...
>
>And fortunately there is now a chance that all bigots finally leave
>Russia forever. Don't lull yourselves with a "how those stupid
>Russians will live witihout us" -- Germany somehow managed, didn't it?

I sincerely hope that this sentence somehow crawled in from a
different posting. You do not really mean that Russia will survive without
its Jews as well as Germany survived without hers, do you?

>
>Now, a quiz about opressed under-educated Jews:
>
>- how come that i have yet to see a Jew sweeping in Metro
>  or working in a shop for bread?
>

Indeed, how come? Without exerting my memory I can recall at least
10-15 personal acquaintances who were fired from their jobs after
applying for exit visas in the late 70s and spent full 8-10 years
sweeping streets, working at boilers or just living off friends'
support.

>- how come that 20% of Soviet administrative staff were Jews?
>  (source - Izvestiya '89 (this figure was also reported by
>  Ogonyok and later confirmed by Gorbachyov in interview)).

Could you supply us with your definition of 'administrative staff'?
Taking in account the size of Soviet bureaucracy 20% yields such
an enormous figure of Jewish 'administrators' that it renders all previous
estimates of Jewish population in xSU wrong in the order of magnitude.

>
>- how come that a country which keeps illegally occupied territories
>  and whose citizenship laws discriminate people by ethnicity (well,
>  you can get a citizenship by undergoing a barbaric surgery) has
>  nuclear arms and enjoy support of American taxpayers?
>

Here we came to the point! I was impatiently waiting for it since
the beginning of discussion. When all arguments are depleted here
goes the ace. O.K., I admit, you won. Now add some stuff about
the plight of Palestinian Arabs, occupation of Southern Lebanon,
hideous raid on Iraqi nuclear reactor and illegal Mossad activities
all over the world.

From now on this thread should belong to tpm. You'll find many
spiritual allies in there varying from a bunch of deprived Arabs
loudly complaining about 'fascist state of Israel' to the Nazi-leaning
imbeciles. I don't know if you're gonna like it since you intellectual
level seems to be much higher but it's worth a try anyway.

Now about Israel:

- Don't like American policy toward Israel? Vote against it!
- Want to stop oppression by any means? Support PLO!
- Don't like Israel per se? Go to some Arab state and join the holy
  war. Take precautions to secure fast withdrawal when Israel kicks the
  shit out of them next time.

BTW, you idea of Israeli citizenship is preposterous and your attempt
to tie the latter to the ritual of circumcision is truly ludicrous since 
it takes nothing to rebut it. I would suggest to obtain some cursory 
knowledge about the Law of Return before jumping into the fray.

>When i hear people like Alex Goykman i feel like joining Pamyat'.
>

Go ahead, there is nothing to be ashamed of. After all, "anti-Semite
is a person who hates Jews more than they deserve".

>--vadim

Nobby
nobby@u.washington.edu