From: fischer@bimacs.BITNET (Yitzy Fischer)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Dr. Arens Praises Israel [was: Re: More Israel torture (as interrog
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:33:51 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <22152@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <7AUG199211560533@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>>
>> In article <22127@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Dr. Yigal Arens) writes...
>>
>> Dr. Yigal Arens writes:
>>
>> >Excuse me, Ms. Rivkis, but does the US OFFICIALLY SANCTION torture as an
>> >investigative technique?  That alone would appear to place Israel in a
>> >different category.
>>
>> Dr. Arens seems to agree [from the context of the posting as well
>> as the "officially sanction"] that the US engages - presumably
>> when necessary [We are not talking about sadists, I presume.  One
>> can never tell with Dr. Arens and Israel; perhaps he means to say
>> that Israel has more sadists than other countries?  But Dr. Arens
>> is usually able to state what he wants for himself.] - in covert
>> torture.  Yes, that the US engages in covert torture.
>>
>> His complaint is then that, unlike the covert torture of the US,
>> Israel is open about its use of torture.  Is this an accusation
>> of culpability?  Should Israel be covert?  Or is this an
>> accusation of cupidity?  Should Israel not try to "seem" honest
>> about what it does?
>
>I can only try to imagine why Mr. Werman is not able to figure out the
>*true* reason I brought up the issue of official sanction.  For the
>record, what my point was:
>
>If torture is illegal -- even if some government individuals or agencies
>ignore this prohibition at times -- it is possible to legally fight it,
>to punish individuals who engage in torture, and possibly to end it.
>
>A country that officially sanctions torture precludes such methods from
>being used in fighting torture's continued use.  In fact, since it does
>not even express nominal opposition to torture, one could expect its use
>to be much more widespread.
>
>In this context, it might be significant to mention that the Israeli
>Landau Commission, which investigated the use of torture by the Israeli
>secret service, found that it was (and SHOULD BE!) a routinely used
>investigative tool, also in cases involving no terrorism, not any
>violence at all.  Quotes upon request.  And here we see another
>difference between Israel and the US in this regard, a difference which
>Mr. Werman (and others here) are quite cynically trying to ignore, or
>obscure:  In Israel torture is used ROUTINELY by the SHABAK.  I defy
>anyone to demonstrate that the FBI, America's equivalent of the SHABAK,
>makes routine use of torture.  Put up or shut up, Mr. Werman.

Since Doc Yigal has always been a stickler as far as titles are
concerned I would think it appropriate for Yigal to refer to Bob
Werman as Prof. Werman, certainly not Mr.

>
>> As a matter of fact, an Israeli high court decision allowed the
>> use of "reasonable force" in interrogation of security prisoners.
>> I think one would have to go a long way to convert "reasonable
>> force" into torture.
>
>The way is only lengthened by the fact that the Landau Commission (it
>was not a Supreme Court decision, Mr. Werman) chose to classify as
>SECRET the appendix to its report wherein were specified the permitted
>forms of physical torture.  Now why would they do that?  I'll tell you
>why: to allow people like Mr. Werman to obfuscate the issue, that's why.
>Obviously, the prisoners involved find out only too well what is
>permitted -- and anyone interested can ask them.  Reports of Israeli
>torture, reports that make clear what is officially permitted, have
>already been posted here numerous times.  But Mr. Werman and the usual
>host of Israeli apologists can continue to hide behind the classified
>list and claim that the victims are exaggerating, lying, and in general
>cannot be trusted.  Of course, before the Landau commission, the same
>arguments were made by people like Mr. Werman to back up the official
>position that no physical coercion was used AT ALL.  Then, Palestinians
>were just inventing the whole thing from start to finish.  The Landau
>Commission found that torture WAS, in fact, used.  So today, Mr. Werman
>only needs to claim that Palestinians are exaggerating its use and
>severity.  How nice.
>
>> Perhaps Israel is singular.  I am one of those who would like
>> Israel to be singular.  Most of my countrymen prefer that
>> Israel be like any other country.
>
>Mr. Werman's desire for Israeli singularity borders on the insane, if
>even the singularity of officially permitting torture of detainees is
>welcomed by him.

Though I have been away from the net for a long time I see that Yigal
is still filling t.p.m. with his garbage and hatred.  I hope that the
new netters have learned to ignore him just as most of us did months
ago.

>--
>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
>arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
>               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21


Yitzy
--

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