HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis)
Subject: Re: Misc. Weekend Ramblings
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:37:42 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

wilson@mailhost.aa.cad.slb.com (David Wilson) writes:
>
>You've decided what he's "supposed" to do, have you?  I guess you've written
>up your own private set of rules to govern Indy car racing?
>
>Is it lost on you that the reason why such a big deal was made about the
>recent experiment with a speed limit in pit lane, was that under the normal
>rules there is no limit?  The pit lane is part of the racing surface.  Say
>that to yourself, over and over, until it sinks in.
>
My, my, my - we are feeling a little grouchy today, aren't we?

First point:  There are public rules that govern IndyCar racing - it's just
that they don't seem to be being observed.  Michael made a questionable pass
in the pits, and as a result got two wheels up above the yellow line when
rejoining the track.  This is illegal, but no penalty was assessed.  It is
not the first time that Michael has done this, either.

Second point:  The pit lane may be `part of the racing surface', but those
of us with the ability to think for ourself without always having to refer
to a written manual have spotted a significant difference: sometimes there
are people walking about in pit lane!  It's rather like an area out on the
track with a standing yellow.  This is still a part of the racing surface,
but drivers are expected to exhibit due caution.  Just what `due caution'
entails is what most of the discussion has been about. Michael Andretti is
following in his father's footsteps, and always trying to squeeze that one
extra tenth of a second by driving through pit lane faster than anyone else.
I personally feel that he takes it too far, and thus is endangering himself
(which is his perogative), other drivers, and the pit workers (which isn't).
Other people, however, feel that IndyCar racing should be a mano-a-mano,
balls-to-the-wall, anything goes sport.
-- 
John (Would you like your figgin toasted?) Francis  johnf@apollo.hp.com
The world can be divided into two classes :-
 those who divide people into two classes, and those who don't.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: slana@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (charles.e.slana)
Subject: Re: McDuffie suit: NASCAR/Glen
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:34:44 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.183628.26669@cbnewsm.cb.att.com>, rlsx@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (russell.l.stauffer) writes:
> Just read that NASCAR and Watkins Glen are being sued on behalf of J. D.
> McDuffie's widow, for $4.25 Million.  Their beef is that turn 5, and the
> barriers, were dangerous and caused his death.
...
> Poor J. D., mediocre at best, his memory is now tarnished by his wife's
> actions, which will effectively hurt the sport that J. D. loved so much.
> The proverbial "he's probably turning in his grave...".  He knew the risks
> involved.  Hell, the "safest" turn can become deadly depending on the
> circumstances.  No matter what you do, there is some danger involved.
> A suit like this CAN kill NASCAR, and all other forms of motorsports in
> the long run.  Insurance rates will go up even more than normal for
> tracks, including your local bullring.  Sponsors can begin to worry more
> about their involvement and it's "legal" implications.  What if Winston,
> or Bud (it was Bud at the Glen, no??) would be attached to the suit??
> It is simply not good for the sport.

It's happened before, it'll happen again...

I'd have to know more facts before I'd pin the blame on Mrs. McD.  I'd
bet money that a lawyer approached her, rather than the other way around.
This is swinging towards misc.legal discussion, but the problem is (IMHO)
threefold: 
	(1) jurors usually take the side of an individual over a corporation
	(2) liability insurance companies will often settle out of court
		rather than risk losing the REALLY BIG settlement.
		(e.g. if you're going to sue, sue for $4.25 mil., than the
		defendant won't mind settling out of court for $1 mil).
	(3) even if the defendant wins, he loses.  I heard of a private
		plane company that was sued over an accident that obviously
		was pilot error, won their case, and still lost several
		hundred thousand dollars in defense attorney fees..

There's gotta be some sanity here or we're going to lose our sport..  
What ever happened to assumed risk?

But if a tragically widowed woman is approached by a lawyer saying he
can win her a couple million dollars for her husband's death ("and it
won't cost you a thing!  I'll just take 50% if we win!"), it's a lot
to ask of a non-participant to have such love for the sport (which took
her husband's life, no less!) to pass it up.


> It was bad enough years back when Mark Donahue's (sp?) wife/estate/whatever
> sued Goodyear and others over his fatal incident.  Now this!!

And from what I understand (perhaps incorrectly), Mrs Donahue was
divorced from Mark when he had his accident, and always hated racing for
what it did to their marriage.  If this is true, it makes it real strange
to see son David Donahue taking up stock car racing now...

BTW, what was the outcome of the Clay Regazzoni (sp?) lawsuit?  Also,
wasn't there an ex-Indy driver who sued over injuries?  Like maybe Jerry
Grant?


Chuck Slana
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL
email: ..!att!ihlpm!slana
   or  slana@ihlpm.att.com
From: rob@sbil.co.uk (Robert  Greenwood)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Facts and Rumors before Hockenheim
Keywords: F1
Date: 28 Jul 92 09:04:16 GMT
Reply-To: rob@sbil.co.uk
Organization: Salomon Brothers, Ltd.

>I think it has already been mentioned here, but I will repeat it.
>Lotus cannot afford Al Jr. (they have unofficially unadmitted this)
When?  Notice that Lotus now have new sponsorship money from Castrol
(nice to see the motor industry sponsoring motor sport for a change)
who knows how much is available, particularly if Lotus continue
improving on their results and Castrol decide this is good value for
money.

>Mika has more sponsorship money
But surely this will only continue if he ends up with (significantly?)
more points than Herbert?

---
-- 
Robert J Greenwood                           Salomon Brothers International Ltd
rob@sbil.co.uk                                 Business Technology Organisation
From: igb@fulcrum.bt.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Re: Boo Boo Senna (German GP minor spoiler)
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:51:51 GMT
Organization: Fulcrum Communications

>>>>> On 30 Jul 92 14:47:25 GMT, marcink@quantum.carleton.ca (Marcin Kolbuszewski) said:
Marcin>  As far as the coreners, Williams active suspension did not extend the
Marcin>  life of tires.

Which is interesting.  When Senna was driving for Lotus with their
active suspension in the mid eighties, he was able to get excellent
results by staying out for the whole race rather than pitting for tyres.
At the time this was said to be because the active suspension saved on
tyre wear.

I would have thought that constant ride height would allow the downforce
to be set more accurately as there won't be the problems of the
component coming from under the car changing.

Of course, it's possible he was running harder compounds but getting
better grip by being active so it cancelled out, but the active Loti (in
a lovely all-yellow scheme) were notably fast and notably light on
tyres.

ian 
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
Subject: Re: Sennas tactics at Hockenheim
Reply-To: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 21:49:47 GMT


In a previous article, lallo@stsci.edu (Matthew D. Lallo,622,4577) says:
>It's amazing Pinto, how Senna sees (through divine inspiration?) wet and 
>dirty patches that no one else does, and then offers it to his weak and
>limited competitors (if that word is even appropriate) thereby tricking 
>them as a fish to a hook or a mouse to cheese on a trap. 


No, you know that's not what Pinto means. He simply means the way other
drivers concentrate so hard on following Senna, Senna uses his knowledge
of slippery spots on the surface that he knows others have forgot about.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Mario and Little Al go Sea-Dooing (was Re: Whats Mario's excuse?)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:36:37 GMT

In article <71174782718822@c00009-118dan.eos.ncsu.edu> jcsmith@eos.ncsu.edu (Jay C. Smith) writes:
>From the July IndyCar Racing "Pit Talk":
>
>"Al Unser Jr. stopped by the Newman/Haas motorcoach in Detroit to see how
>the recovery was going.  'We are still going "Sea-Dooing" after New
>Hampshire, aren't we?' Unser Jr. asked.  'Absolutely,' replied Mario."
>
>What the heck is "Sea-Dooing"?
>

A Sea-Doo is a type of water Jet-Ski made by the Bombardier (the people who
brought the world the Skidoo).

Gerald

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: bob@ncube.com (Bob Kehoe)
Subject: Re: IMSA,  Hate to burst the bubble ...
Organization: nCUBE Computers, Beaverton, Oregon, U.S.A.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:49:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.203027.6845@cbfsb.cb.att.com> kevinc@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (kevin.j.coulter) writes:
>While I agree thats one of the problems, its the same for everyone.
>Besides, they can do it at daytona and sebring, and at least at sebring,

Yeah, but you've got to remember that these are endurance races of 24
and 12 hours respectively, and not 1 or 2 hour sprint races (though I've
seen a lot of guys think differently).  There's no way you could justify
separate events for GTP/L and GTS/O/U in these cases.

bob

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: bob@ncube.com (Bob Kehoe)
Subject: WC Mfg's Points
Organization: nCUBE Computers, Beaverton, Oregon, U.S.A.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:08:30 GMT

Could someone please post the current points standings
for the Winston Cup Manufacturer's Championship.  I've not
seen them for ages - for some *strange* reason our local
news never mentions them and I've got about 4 weeks worth
of video tape that I haven't gotten the chance to catch
up on.

-c'ball-
From: dobosz_m@wfooff.enet.dec.com (Mike Dobosz)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: A&E's Power and Glory broadcast
Date: 30 Jul 92 18:21:29 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


I've been enjoying (and taping) A&E's Power and Glory show for the past few 
Wednesday nights.  Last night it wasn't on...does anyone have info on when 
it will be on again?  
							Mike
-- 
             {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!wfooff.enet!dobosz_m
             dobosz_m%wfooff.enet@decwrl.dec.com 
             dobosz_m@wfooff.enet.dec.com               DoD # 0596
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: bob@ncube.com (Bob Kehoe)
Subject: Re: IMSA,  Hate to burst the bubble ...
Organization: nCUBE Computers, Beaverton, Oregon, U.S.A.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:51:03 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.154955.21954@cbfsb.cb.att.com> kevinc@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (kevin.j.coulter) writes:
>Fritz (or anyone else), any ideas why IMSA insists on separating the
>GTP/Lights from the GTS/GTO/GTU? Especially on real road courses... 
>and hey, road america is the BIGGEST track they run on. 
>

Anyone Else's opinion on your question:

A couple of reasons:

The SIZE of the track is not the problem.  The wide diversity in the
speeds of the various classes, from a driver's viewpoint, make the
combining of GTP/GTL with GTS/GTO/GTU (the alphabet soup series) 
impossible.  Simply running GTP/GTL together is a difficulty -- talk
to a GTL driver someday.  They're not only running their own race but
have to concern themselves with the Big Boys (and vice-versa).  This
past weekend I paid particular attention to this aspect of the race.
The closing speed of, say, the Eagle MkIII on a Kudzu/Buick is
incredible!  Now, to all of that add in around 20 or so Alphabet Soup
cars (GTU's aren't all that fast) and I think you'd have a mess.

My other reason, from a promoter's point of view:

Casual race fans (that is, those who maybe only attend one or two major
races a year and don't closely follow racing throughout the year)
quickly lose interest in going to races when they are thoroughly
confused as to what's going on.  (The old "who's on first" routine).
Once lapping begins in a multi-class race, it is hard for some folks
to keep in touch with the standings within the various classes (this
is where the local PA system becomes SO important).  In fact, many
people were confused this 
past weekend in being able to comprehend the visual differences between
the GTS and GTO cars.

Yeah, I remember LeMans in it's heydays.....

One more thing I'd like to add while discussing IMSA in general.  On the
PITSTOP last night, I believe we set an all-time RECORD in the number of
callers into the show, most wanting to discuss this past weekend here at
Portland.  Much more so than after IndyCars, even though that series
significantly outdraws IMSA attendance wise.  And you know what,
virtually everyone stated they enjoyed IMSA much more than IndyCars,
even though the highlight race of the weekend was a snooze.  By the way,
my usual partner Craig was out of town, but Gordon Scott (the voice of
PIR for many years) happened by the studio and was my co-driver for the
night, doing his usual excellent job.  

-cannonball-

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: drhall@b8.ingr.com (Dave Hall)
Subject: Winston Cup Frequencies
Keywords: scanner
Organization: Intergraph
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:09:04 GMT

I would like to obtain an updated Winston Cup frequency list. The one I have
is from Atlanta in March. Will need make the appropriate changes to the scanner
for the Diehard 500 sunday.  Any help is greatly appreciated!!!

 =============================================================================
                                          ||           ______
   Dave Hall                              ||     \____//|____`\______    
    BLACK CAT RACING - Madison, Al.       ||     /Havoline 28    /  \ \_ 
                                          ||     ==\__/==========\__/===\ 
                                          ||         ______  
   dave@racer.b8.ingr.com                 ||   \____//|____`\______    
   uunet!ingr.com!b8!racer!dave           ||   /Raybestos 12   /  \ \_
                                          ||   ==\__/==========\__/===\
                                          ||   "The NEW GANG LEADERS!"
 =============================================================================
From: rbt@dracut.keps.kodak.com (Bob Tufts)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: F1: Technology-limiting rules
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:45:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: keps.1992Jul27.154522.824
Organization: Kodak Electronic Printing Systems

In article <1992Jul27.142258.6681@stsci.edu> lallo@stsci.edu writes:
> 
> 
> Because of this, I feel technologically limiting the cars to make them more
> equal, will in the end be more harmful to F1.  It will reduce the teams,
> strip them of their indentities and their heritage...for there will be no
> NEED for their heritage!   Indeed, what purpose does the legend of Ferrari or
> Lamborghini serve if they must ultimately build the same engine?  What point
> is there to the mythic handling  of a Lotus if all teams must have the same
> chassis?   The sport will be reduced until instead of watching a race in
> which marques rich with heritage, culture, and undaunting pride are battling
> for supremecy, it will simply be drivers in nameless, faceless, souless
> machines with nothing at stake except their own reputations.
> 
> 
> Comments/flames?
> 
I agree, with the following exception:(I point I made a few weeks ago). I think
there should be a financial cap for all teams. I have no idea how this could
be enforced, but if it could, say that everyone was allocated 50 million (max)
to work with. That would allow financial parity of the teams and it would be
up to each team how to spend it. If McLaren were to spend 15 million on Senna,
that would leave only 35 million for chassis & engine development, etc.
"Gee Ayrton, we'd like to have you but we can get this other guy for 7 million
less and without this money for the engine we wont be competitive"

Sure would inspire creativity, and would keep expenses down. Maybe F1 could
have reasonably priced tickets again.... oops! I forgot about Bernie Inc.!
:-)

-Bob T.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: More F1 predictions for 1993
Reply-To: hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: DESY ZEUS Central Data Acquisition
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:42:26 GMT

In article <1992Jul17.233158.15273@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>,
ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks) writes:

|>Williams: Prost, Senna
|>Benetton: Brundle, Berger
|>Ferrari: Patrese, Alesi
|>Mclaren: Micheal Andretti, Schumacher

Have I missed Mansell announcing his retirement or something? Is is
probable that he means it this time. After taking the world championship
I would think it unlikely that none of the top teams will want him. 
Williams will be keen to keep Mansell so they can start with the number
1 on the snout next year. 

Senna may be a good driver, but to have him in the team is a bit like
deciding only to run one car that year. The don't seem to be too many
people wanting to drive with him. Senna may think that Mclaren are
uncompetitive, but unless he gets offered a ride with Williams he's not
got a great chance of improving his lot.

Also Schumacher must have more than a one year contract after Bennetton
bought him out of his previous one. I can't see Beneton being desperate
to get rid of him after his performance this season. However they will
want a reliable driver with him.

With McLaren having to work very hard in the next 6 months to stay in
the top rank, Ferrari must be fancy their chances of making a
breakthrough next season. Up till now they have been essentialy
relearning the F1 game, it is pretty amazing that they did so well.
Benetton at number 2 in the constructors championship are likely to be
scooping much of the best sponsorship of McLaren. I think next season is
going to be pretty much a three cornered affair with Williams, Benetton
and Ferrari the main contendors. Mclaren may make a later rally [heh] in
the second half of the season once they have their new engine sorted,but
on their present form they don't look like they have their old ability
to get things right first time.


the only predictions I think safe so far are:-

Williams: Mansell
Benetton: Schumacher
Ferrari:
McLaren: Senna


Phill hallam-Baker
From: stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Stoffel)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: A&E's Power and Glory broadcast
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:40:30 GMT
Reply-To: stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Stoffel)
Distribution: na
Organization: Annapolis Detachment, CARDEROCKDIV, NSWC

In rec.autos.sport, dobosz_m@wfooff.enet.dec.com (Mike Dobosz) writes:
>I've been enjoying (and taping) A&E's Power and Glory show for the past few
>Wednesday nights.  Last night it wasn't on...does anyone have info on when
>it will be on again?

Great series so far! I've been out of town and can't explain what happened
last night. The info. I have indicates that it will be back in its regular
slots [9:30PM EDT Wednesdays & 1:30AM EDT Thursdays] at least through
the month of August. I believe this is a finite series of n # of shows
vice a continuing series. I'll try to find out more about this too.

Bill
__________________________________________________________________________
Bill Stoffel              |  CARDEROCKDIV, NSWC  |First things first!     |
stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil |  Code 2759           | (But not necessarily in|
(410) 267-3825            |  Annapolis, MD 21402 |that order) - The Doctor|
_________________________________________________|________________________|
From: roberto@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Roberto S. M. Barros)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: F1 Pick6: scoring
Date: 31 Jul 92 11:09:49 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
X-Mailer: mail-news 2.0.5

David J. Nixon (nxn@uts.amdahl.com) writes:

| That said, I think the scoring system is rather capricious, favoring
| those that happen to get the minor placings right, and penalizing those
| that get the order right, but are off by one place. 

I agree that the system is not good (see below), but disagree it favours 
picking the minor places. Actually, I think it favours picking the winner(s)!
The misleading fact here (IMO) is that almost everybody is picking Mansell 
and Patrese for 1st and 2nd (for obvious reasons).

| Another issue is scoring based on all 16 races. If you miss a race
| (as we did the first before the present triple mailing system) it's very
| hard to catch up (although Bruce Fisher is doing well). 

I like the idea of discarding the worst 2 results.
Not only this would allow for things beyond our control (travel, e-mail 
problems, etc.), but it would also give more encouragement to make a 
couple of picks against the "safe" choices (for example, not picking 
Mansell to win in all races this year).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul Winalski (winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com) writes:
  
| The system that I favor is one that John came up with.  This system awards 10
| points for an exact prediction, 6 points for being 1 place off, 4 for two
| places off, 3 for 3 places off, 2 for 4 places off, and 1 for 5 places off.
| Your example pick above would score 10+0+6+6+6+0=28 points (out of a
| possible 60) under this system.  Had Patrese made the pass, the score would
| have been 10+10+10+10+10+0=50 out of 60.
| 
| The advantage of this system over the present one is that is rewards picks 
| based on closeness.  I also think it's better because it isn't biased in 
| favor of the top positions (a point on which I see we disagree).

I think this method is very good actually! Not only it rewards close misses, 
it also removes the huge importance of picking 1st and 2nd! 

One thing that I would like to add is a number of bonus points (10?) for getting 
all top 6 finishers, regardless of their positions (in addition to discarding 
the worst 2 results - see above).
 
Roberto Barros