From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Summary, Trinity vs LDS View fo the Godhead
Date: 12 Dec 92 03:57:33 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <aeUA021E2eZt01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>,
 agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:

>>> Jason, the issue is not over the Trinity, and I agree with that point.
>>> The issue is over which God you worship.  If you have the wrong God,
>>> you are wrong enough to lose your soul forever.  The point is that, the
>>> LDS church worships a God who was not always God, but once a mortal man
>>> who progressed through laws to become God, and is now a mortal man
>>> having eternal sex with his polygamous wives.
>>>
>>> The Christian God is an infinate spirit being that was always God,and
>>> created the heavens and earth, and came here a a humble man and died
>>> on a cross so that those who believed could have eternal life.

>> I don't beleive this is necessary for one to help others.
>>
>> I think that the Christian God is the one that has all power and
>> all knowledge;
 
> If you believe that God has all knowledge, and He tells us in
> Isaiah 44:8 that He knows of no other Gods, then why did Joseph
> Smith believe and teach that there were other Gods?  

I don't know.  He is dead so we can't ask him.

> And why do you believe the lie?

Maybe because I don't interpret Isais 44:8 as literaly as you do.
To me it is referring again to the pagan gods that the Israelites
had the bad habit of turning to.

>> has told us to do unto others as we would have
>> them do unto us, to visit the sick, the widows and the
>> fatherless, to go the extra mile, to turn the other cheek, to
>> love one's enemies, to try to be virtuous, avoid contention, to
>> love one another.
>>
>> I see nothing about these things that requires believe in a
>> spirit of physical being that may or may not be like us, may or
>> may not have a a spouse, may or may not be the only one of its
>> kind, may or may not procreate, or that may or may not have
>> always existed.
>>
>> I think that that message is more important than the messenger.

> Unless the messenger is YOUR creator and He has said, "YOU
> SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BESIDES ME".  If you are worshiping a
> glorified man, you have an OTHER GOD BESIDES HIM.

Only by your interpretation of things.  Sorry, but I keep getting
different mileage than you get from the same scriptures.

>> If I loose my eternal salvation/soul/whatever because I beleived
>> that the messeger was like me when in reality he turns out to be
>> a nebulous, formless, inteligent power, then so be it.
> 
> No one said God was an intelligent power.  He is a personal being.

Whatever.

>> For now, I'll just stick to trying to help those around me that
>> are in need in any way that I can.
 
> Helping others is fine, nice, and certainly Godly.  But it
> won't save your soul.

If that is the case, then I will be content to be damned.

>      "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that
>       not of yourselves, IT IS A GIFT of God" NOT as the
>       RESULT OF WORKS, that no one should boast."  Ephesians 2:8-9

Tony, I'm really sick about the grace/works dialog.

I beleive that there is nothing I can do of myself to merit my
salvation.  I know, because I have tried and failed (See 2 Nephi 
4:34). I have learned (as the Book of Mormon teaches) that I must
excersize faith in God, not in myself, or any other thing.  When
I do this, God grants me a remission of my sins.  This come by
grace.  In turn, God asks that *I* do certain things that he asks
me to do:

Keep his commadments (John 14:15)
Turn the other cheek (Matt. 5:39-40)
Go the extra mile (Matt. 5:41)
Love my enemies (Matt. 5:44)
Bless them that curse me (Matt. 5:44)
Pray for those that despitfully use me and persecute me (Matt 5:44)
Treat others as I want them to treat me (Matt. 7:14).
Do the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21; 12:50; Luke 6:46-49;
   11:28; 12:47; John 7:17; 15:14; Romans 2:13; James 1:22)
Be baptized (John 3:5; Acts 2:38)
Do the things that Christ did (John 13:15)
Love one another (John 13:34)
Visit the the fatherless, widows, the sick, and the needy 
   (Matt. 25:34-40; James 1:27; 5:14-15)
Be not weary in well doing (2 Thess. 3:13)
Try to keep myself pure (James 1:27; 1 John 3:3)

And a host of other counsel that boils down to being charitable
to those around me.

Of course, because I am imperfect, I don't always succeed.  In
fact, I fail quite a lot.  But the important thing is that I
repent of my errors and at least try to to what God has asked me
to do, make and honest effort, and be as diligent as I am able to
be.

And to me, this is still salvation by grace, not works.  For as
King Benjamin said:

"I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you
from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by
lending you breath, that ye may live and move according to your
own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another -- I
say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye
would be unprofitable servants.

"And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his
commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his
commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth
vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his
commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

"And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted
unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

"And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath
commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you;
and therefore he hath paid you.  And ye are still indebted unto
him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what
have ye to boast?"
(BoM: Mosiah 2:21-24)

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Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu