From: wlat_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Wayne Lattery)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
Subject: Summary: Need opinions on list of audio components before buying(LONG)
Keywords: Components, Amplifers, Preamp/Tuners, CD Players, Speakers, etc.
Date: 15 Apr 92 13:11:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: galileo.1992Apr15.025040.16088
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Rochester Computing Center
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu



Hello Rec.audio.high-end,
			This is a summary of the responses to my post:
"Need opinions on list of audio components before buying(Help)". Before
I post the summaries, I would like to thank everyone who replied to my
e-mail question. You have been a great help. After visiting the stores in
my area that carried the components that are listed in my query, I have
decided on a system, however I still testing/listening to some stuff.
Buy date starts in the first two weeks in May. Everything on my list is
pretty much finalized on to the components listed. Components at the 
last of the buying list will be added to the system later(a month or two).
My first serious audio system will consist of: 

Amplifer: Bryston 4B 250W/ch Amp.
--------
CD Player: Rotel 955AX CD Player (I did forget this one on my list)
---------
DAC: EAD DSP7000 D/A Converter (This will be at the last of the buying list)
----
Speakers: Thiel CS 2.2 3-Way Speaker
--------
Tape Deck: Pioneer Elite CT-41 3-head Tape Deck
---------
Preamp: Adcom GFP-565 Preamp 
------- 
Tuner: Adcom GFT-555II Tuner
----- 
Turntable: Linn Axis Turntable (This will be at the last of the buying list)
---------

The summaries are listed below with all the extraneous stuff deleted. 
Separate replies are enclosed in double lines with the name and e-mail 
address listed. I hope it may be of use to someone else.....

==================================================================
From: bagate!baarsa!ddbkbpx (Thomson W. (William) #908-577-3446)

I own the Bryston 3B which is a 100-W/ch amp.  It has the exact
same design as the 4B only less power and heat dissipation
ability.  The list price of the 3B is $1295.  I replaced my 
Adcom 555 amp with the Bryston and the difference in sound
quality was not subtle.  The Bryston has a warmer treble,
better midrange detail and a better-defined bass response.
I recommend Bryston highly!

It appears that all of the amplifiers you have listed have
a very high power rating.  At the same time, none of the
speakers you have listed have a need for such power (unless
of course your trying to get your neighbors to move out).
If price is a consideration (and it almost always it), I
would recommend considering power less and sound quality
more.  There are several brands that make lower powered
amps that are as good as their high-powered ones (Bryston
is one, so is Aragon).  You may pay alot of money for 
power you don't need.

Good luck.  I'm looking forward to reading your summary.
Also, let us know what you buy.

Bill T.
==================================================================
From: WAKELAND@ucs.indiana.edu

I'm surprised the rotel 955 cd player isn't on your list, and that you want to
spend $800 on a cd player but less on a preamp/tuner.  Why not a cheaper cd
player and an adcom GFP-565 preamp, and get a separate tuner?
I'm a bit dubious of my adcom 555 amp, which I owned before I got my B&W
speakers.  Bi-amping with two 60 watt amps might be better for the same price.
B&W's certainly don't need 300 Watts!

Good Luck!
Ray Wakeland
wakeland@ucs.indiana.edu

==================================================================
From: Son Nguyen <snguyen@orion.oac.uci.edu>

Wayne,

>Component Prices and model designation are taken from Feb.1992 Stereo Review.

that's quite a varied list.  I'm sure you'll get lots of replies.  But
if you're interested in the Spica Angelus, I have a pair I would like to
sell.  Actually, I would like to sell the *entire* system so that I 
can pay for 91 taxes:-(  If you're interested, let me know.

Son Nguyen
snguyen@orion.oac.uci.edu

ps - your list of prices are quite varied.  I'm sure that between the
highest and lowest price of amps for example, there are lots of good stuff
you didn't list that would/should deserve to be there.  Also, I would 
think that most people would decide on speaker before amp...

======================================================================
From: eccleswn@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu


You mentioned Denon Cass. Decks, but don't discount the Denon disc  
players. They are extrordinarily reliable, feature-laden, and sound  
really damned good.

Try the 16xx series. Reasonable price, good sound, weighs a ton...

Bill Eccles

=======================================================================
From: <gyenese@caen.engin.umich.edu>


I have an Adcom GFA-555 amd and I couldn't be happier with it.  The
sound is very clean with outstanding imaging and detail.  It is
also very powerful.  In fact, a recent review in Stereo Review tested
the GFA-555II and it put out about 280 watts per channel before it
reached the rated distortion figures.  It can drive almost any speaker
load too.  My speakers are really tough to drive, but the Adcom does
it without even breathing hard.

I can't recommend Adcom products high enough.

John

======================================================================
From: denio@seismo.css.gov (Dennis O'Neill)

  Amplifers
> ---------
> Adcom GFA-555II 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$799

I have the predecessor to this amp, the GFA-555, and have been quite
happy with it.  If I had to do it again I'd probably lean toward B&K,
but that's because my preference in dealers has changed.


> Preamp/Tuners
> -------------
> Adcom GTP-500II Preamp/Tuner           ...............$600

I have the preamp-only Adcom GFP-555.  Quite happy with it.


> CD Players
> ----------
> California Audio Labs (next 2 CD players)
> Icon mkII  CD Player             ...............$795 (This is more like it)

When I was auditioning components I heard this and didn't like it.  I did
like the more expensive CAL players, though.  I ended up with the Adcom
GCD-565.  (Do I spot a trend?)  I thought it was the best available for the
money at the time, but that's probably no longer true.  Some of the Onkyos
seem pretty nice.


> Turntables(The turntable is not a priority right not, but I got my eye on these)

You left out Rega Planar III ($600 or so), you didn't mention arms, and you
didn't mention cartridges.  Both arms and cartridges are vital to the
quality of a turntable's performance.  (See note, below.)


Note.  I notice you said you got your list from Stereo Review.  While SR is 
fine as far as it goes, its lists are by no means comprehensive.  It tends
to ignore pricier brands and gives short shrift to much "high end" gear.
While I am not necessarily of the subjectivist school of hifi, I have my
doubts about SR's apparent policy of never printing a bad review.

For a more comprehensive listing of equipment, see Audio Magazine's annual
Equipment directory.  See also The Absolute Sound's recent equipment list
issue.
-- 
Dennis O'Neill (denio@seismo.css.gov)

=================================================================
From: rc@accolade.cc.bellcore.com (25873-casto)


I have an Adcom Amp (the 60 Watt one) and PreAmp/Tuner and must say
that they sound as good as most equipment that is twice their price.
Wouldn't want anything else.
-- 
+----------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
| Rich Casto, Bellcore, Piscataway, NJ, U.S.A. | email: rc@cc.bellcore.com |
+----------------------------------------------+---------------------------+

=================================================================
From: gfl@hera.cc.bellcore.com (lenahan,grant f)


Dear Wayne:

I have little time, just a few comments.  I comment only on what
I have heard and /or have solid info on.


Amplifers
---------
Adcom GFA-555II 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$799 rough
Adcom GFA-565 300-W/ch Amplifer   ................$850 each
B&K Video 5 Sonata 525W Amplifer  ................$1,298 huh??
B&K ST-202 Plus 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$848
Bryston 4B 250-W/ch Amplifer      ................$2,095 nice
Harmon Kardon Citation 22 200-W/ch Amplifer.......$1,149
Nakamichi PA-7AII 225W/ch Amplifer ...............$2,300 yuk.
Sumo Andromeda II 240-W/ch Amplifer...............$1,599 yuk
Sumo Polaris II 120-W/ch Amplifer  ...............$799 yuk
Rotel RB980 BX 120-W/ch Amplifer   ...............$599

Preamp/Tuners
-------------
Adcom GTP-500II Preamp/Tuner       ...............$600
Carver CT-17 Preamp/Tuner          ...............$800 yuk
Rotel RTC950 AX Preamp/Tuner       ...............$499

CD Players
----------
California Audio Labs (next 2 CD players)
Aria mkIII Hybrid CD Player        ...............$2,395(Maybe just a dream...)
Icon mkII  CD Player               ...............$795 (This is more like it)
Harman Kardon HD7600 CD Player     ...............$679
JVC XL-Z1050TN CD Player           ...............$800 good
Luxman D-105U Tube CD Player       ...............$1,200
ROTEL 955	1			          $450 nice

Speakers
---------
I still listening but these are in my list as of now

B&W 804 3-Way Speakers             ...............$2,200/pr
Icon Parsec 3-Way Speakers         ...............$1,795/pr(Direct from Company)
KEF 104/2 3-Way Speakers           ...............$2400/pr
PSB Stratus Gold 3-Way Speakers    ...............$2000/pr
Spica Angelus 2-Way Speakers       ...............$1,275/pr
Thiel CS 2.2 3-Way Speakers        ...............$2,250/pr
Vandersteen 2Ce                    ...............$N/A         


Spicas are very nice, but little deep bass. Vandersteens are
forgiving, all-around OK, and $1495/pr.  Thiels are
excellent, IMO, but are analytical and exteneded on top
and require a very good amp/pre/etc.  B&Ws are also
very, very good, and are more forgiving of electronics.

Grant

==============================================================
From: chowkwan@alumni.cco.caltech.edu (Raymond Maihin Chowkwanyun)


Forget all solid state amps and go straight to tubes.
I specifically recommend the VTL line.  

About two years ago, I was looking to upgrade my amp
from an NAD.  I looked at B\&K and Forte - all the usual
solid state contenders at the \$1,000.00 and under price point.
While they sounded better than the NAD at times, there were
also times when I thought the humble NAD sounded better.
I was starting to think Stereo Review was right, there's not
that much difference between amps.

Then I plugged in a VTL 90/90.  Music started to pour forth
from my speakers.  It was like getting a new pair of speakers.
I would never have believed my speakers capable of such performance.
Specifically, the instruments aquired a weight and a heft which
they never had with solid state.  Kind of like the difference
between vinyl and CD.

The VTL line is kind of confusing for a newcomer to tubes because
of the seeming proliferation of models.  Here's a potted guide:

VTL 75/75 : 75 watt per channel stereo amplifier.  \$1,175.00.
            I think this is the model you want to consider.

VTL 50/50 : 45 watt per channel stereo amplifier. \$1,000.00.
            For \$175.00 more, the 75/75 offers much more power.

VTL Tiny Triodes: 25 watt monoblocks.  Pure triode class A. \$1,000.00.
            I'd actually get these before the 50/50 even though
            it's half the power for the same price.  Tubes run
            in triode mode have a smoother response.  There is a
            delicacy to the sound that is ravishing.  Team these up
            with some efficient speakers and you'd really have
            something.  Also these are monoblocks.  Each channel 
            gets its own dedicated amp.  In my experience, monoblocks
            outperform stereo amps where both channels have to 
            share the input transformer.

VTL 80: 80 watt monoblock.  \$2000.00 the pair.  Practically the
        same power as the 75/75 but you're getting monoblocks
        instead of a stereo amp.  The sound will be more transparent
        than with the stereo amp.


VTL 140: 50 watt monoblock.  All triode class A.  \$2,400.00.
         If you can spring for the bucks, this would be the one
         to get.  Powerful enough to drive most speakers in a 
         way that the tiny triodes simply cannot.  Did I mention
         that triodes sound ravishing?  The 140 can be switched
         into pentode mode to deliver 140 watts.  But most people
         end up running in triode at one third the power because
         once they get used to that ravishing triode sound they
         just can't give it up.  By this point we haven't just
         left solid state behind, we're in another universe.


VTL makes even more models.  I told you it was confusing.
They go all the way up to the Manley 1000's which, you guessed it,
produce 1000 watts.  I've seen one at the factory.  It's a monster.
Anyways, if you get hooked on tubes, I think you'll end up as I 
did with a 200 watt all-triode, class A Ichiban.


Don't be fooled by the low power ratings on some of these amps.
Audiophiles have long known that tube amps sound more powerful
than higher rated solid state amps.  

One caveat: VTL is known to have problems delivering current
into low resistance loads.  So if you're planning to get
Apogees, I'd recommend trying to get MFA to build you a
high-current version of their tube amp.       


--ray

===============================================================
From: morass@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU


Hello Wayne,

 here is some more good components:
 
 PRE-AMPLIFIERS
---------------
 1)PS audio 5.6-a full featured preamp with an excellent phono stage,straightwire and bypass-the latter two for the purists..I found the soundstaging of this
preamp to be rivaling far costlier equipment.The phono stage is sweet sounding
and accurate.


 PRICE: 799 (I got mine for 720)

 2)NAD preamp (5000??) for 400$.Very good value for the money.


 AMPLIFIERS
------------

 1)ADCOM 535 for 350$
 Not a very powerful one (60 watts/ch) but still one of the best performers in
price/performance.It is not as harsh on the high frequences as it brother ADCOM
555.I've heard it handle the Apogee minor very nicely.So if you don't need lots
of power this is a great buy,especially if you mate it with a low impedance
speaker(100 watts/ch in 4 ohms)

 2)Aragon for 1400$
grear amplifier for electrostatics.good definition,though presentation is 
somewhat laid back.i think apogee recomments it for its speakers.

 3)PS Audio Delta (100w/ch in 8 ohms).An excellent value!!

 CD Players
------------
 1)Rotel 955 for 425$.One of the best cd players in the under 1000$ price range


 Speakers
---------
 1)Apogee Centaur Minor.One of the best speakers i've ever heard.I am actually
planning on buying this one.A gerat buy at 1200$ (plus 150$ for matching stands)
It is not huge(...for an electrostatic...) and works fine even in moderatelly
sized rooms.

 2)Thiel CS2.2 -i've heard you need top notch components for these speakers due
to their revealing nature.I guess component interfacing is crucial.

 3)Vandersteen 2Ce

  I was very disappointed when i auditioned these speakers,given the fact that
they've received so many favorable reviews.I felt the sound was muddy and
lacking punch.I thought the Spica's(TC-50 for 550$ and Angelus)sounded much
better.


                            good luck 

                            Dimitrios

===================================================================
From: Rayan Zachariassen <rayan@cs.toronto.edu>

Instead of the Bryston 4B, you might want to look into a smaller model.
I've got a 2B-LP (nominal 50, really 70W) which does its job very nicely.
(its driving Thiel 1.2s).  You should be able to pick it up new for around 1k$.
I don't know its price in the U.S.

rayan

===================================================================
From: Crying Freeman <kschiu@descartes.waterloo.edu>


Amplifers
---------
Adcom GFA-555II 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$799
Adcom GFA-565 300-W/ch Amplifer   ................$850 each
B&K Video 5 Sonata 525W Amplifer  ................$1,298
B&K ST-202 Plus 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$848
Bryston 4B 250-W/ch Amplifer      ................$2,095
Harmon Kardon Citation 22 200-W/ch Amplifer.......$1,149
Nakamichi PA-7AII 225W/ch Amplifer ...............$2,300
Sumo Andromeda II 240-W/ch Amplifer...............$1,599
Sumo Polaris II 120-W/ch Amplifer  ...............$799
Rotel RB980 BX 120-W/ch Amplifer   ...............$599

I prefer BK over the Adcom (I like 'tube sounding')
other suggestions (these eq not listened, but have reasons to
believe that they are 'good')

- P.S. Audio mono (995 each)
- Muse 100
- Audiolab 8000P or 8000m (mono)

Preamp/Tuners
-------------
Adcom GTP-500II Preamp/Tuner       ...............$600
Carver CT-17 Preamp/Tuner          ...............$800
Rotel RTC950 AX Preamp/Tuner       ...............$499

- no comment on the eq mentioned above, I never listened to any of those

>> I would buy the Conrad Johnson PV11 MV52 combo, If I could afford (sigh)
   (around 1200 preamp, 1500-2000 for the poweramp)

CD Players
----------
California Audio Labs (next 2 CD players)
Aria mkIII Hybrid CD Player        ...............$2,395(Maybe just a dream...)
Icon mkII  CD Player               ...............$795 (This is more like it)
Never tried CAL           
Harman Kardon HD7600 CD Player     ...............$679
Not bad for the price (it's kinda good compare to most Sony/Denon...bla bla)
JVC XL-Z1050TN CD Player           ...............$800
Tried 1010, REALLY nice, but don't know if the 1050 is still as good
Luxman D-105U Tube CD Player       ...............$1,200
Forget it....

I would get the JVC (if it's as good as the 1010)
eventually, if you can get micromega's DUO B.S. (DAC)  ~$1000
that will be my choice (all you need is a cheap philips to drive it)

Turntables(The turntable is not a priority right not, but I got my eye on these)
-----------
Dual Golden-1 Semiauto Turntable   ...............$1,195
Never tried, but the resale value isn't great (does that indicate something?) 
Maybe a used Linn LP12 or
Linn Axis Manual Turntable         ...............$995
Linn Basik Turntable               ...............$595
make sure that your LP12 is a recent model, or you will have
a nightmare setting it up...

I am not a LP guy ... (don't have much collections and too lazy
                       to mess with vinlys ... even it sounds better)

Tape Decks
-----------
I am looking at the top of the line Denon reference deck and the
top of the line JVC double autoreverse tape deck.

the JVC titaninum series is much better than Denon's and even so I
will pick TEAC the new 5000 /6000 /7000

What about Dolby S? 

Speakers
---------
I still listening but these are in my list as of now

B&W 804 3-Way Speakers             ...............$2,200/pr
^my 2nd choice
Icon Parsec 3-Way Speakers         ...............$1,795/pr(Direct from Company)
not tried
KEF 104/2 3-Way Speakers           ...............$2400/pr
not tried, but it's famous in 'hard to get good sound'
PSB Stratus Gold 3-Way Speakers    ...............$2000/pr
not tried
Spica Angelus 2-Way Speakers       ...............$1,275/pr
not tried, but too ugly to have it in the living room... :)     
Thiel CS 2.2 3-Way Speakers        ...............$2,250/pr
^my first choice
Vandersteen 2Ce                    ...............$N/A
tried Cis, kinda too 'laid back' IMHO

another alternative - castle winchester


Regards,

Ken

===========================================================
From: Tim Majni <tmajni@sequent.com>

My god man!  BUY USED!  Get Threshold, Levinson, etc.  Don't insist on
new gear.  I have been into audio for a while now, and my first setup
was an Adcom 555 stack.  It cost $3k with speaks and CD player.  I now
own HK tube gear, but went thru a lot of other stuff used before
buying (and reworking) these amps.  I now have about the same invested
in my current system, but it kicks the poop out of the new stuff.

Tim Majni

==========================================================
From: rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)

Wayne,

I read about your interest in audio from rec.audio.high-end.  I have a couple
of comments about your component list.  Regarding amplifiers, I have one to add
to you list.  Acurus 250-W/ch (I don't know the model number but it is a new
company and I think they only have one amp).  I do not have the phone number 
for Acurus handy but there should be a dealer in your area.  I have heard this
amp driving Snell C2 and Apogee Centaur Minor speakers.  It is very good.

With repect to speakers, you seem to have quite a variety in your list.  I do
not particularly care for the Theil CS 2.2 speakers.  They are far to bright 
for my taste.  I am not a big fan of Vandersteen either.  They always seem a
little dull.  If you are interested in the Spica 2 ways, I can save you about
$800.  There is a small company (by small, I mean that it consists of 2 people)
in Austin Texas called Dana Audio (no, it is not my company, although I do
like the name) that manufactures two models of speakers.  The higher-end model
costs $400 and is at least as good as the Spicas.  Dana Audio is strictly
mail order, unless you happen to be in Austin.

Dana Audio
P.O. Box 1
Austin, TX.  78767
(512) 454-3233

I hope this information helps.

Regards,
Dana Rigg

=====================================================================
From: ss@kakapo.berkeley.edu (Srinivasan Seshan)

   Amplifers
   ---------
   Adcom GFA-555II 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$799
   Adcom GFA-565 300-W/ch Amplifer   ................$850 each
   B&K Video 5 Sonata 525W Amplifer  ................$1,298
   B&K ST-202 Plus 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$848
   Bryston 4B 250-W/ch Amplifer      ................$2,095
   Harmon Kardon Citation 22 200-W/ch Amplifer.......$1,149
   Nakamichi PA-7AII 225W/ch Amplifer ...............$2,300
   Sumo Andromeda II 240-W/ch Amplifer...............$1,599
   Sumo Polaris II 120-W/ch Amplifer  ...............$799
   Rotel RB980 BX 120-W/ch Amplifer   ...............$599

I'd stay away from B&K.  Either you love or hate them, and I don't like them.
Given your price range, I'd check out Aragon or Acurus by Mondial Design:
Aragon 2004 - 100 W/ch	$1295
Aragon 4004 - 200 W/ch	$1895
Acurus A250 - 250 W/ch	$850


   CD Players
   ----------
   California Audio Labs (next 2 CD players)
   Aria mkIII Hybrid CD Player	   ...............$2,395(Maybe just a dream...)
   Icon mkII  CD Player 	   ...............$795 (This is more like it)
   Harman Kardon HD7600 CD Player  ...............$679
   JVC XL-Z1050TN CD Player	   ...............$800
   Luxman D-105U Tube CD Player    ...............$1,200

Check out the Rotel 955.  I've got one, and it's great.  It's rated by
Sterophile as the best CD playes under $1000.


   Speakers
   ---------
   I still listening but these are in my list as of now

   B&W 804 3-Way Speakers	   ...............$2,200/pr
   Icon Parsec 3-Way Speakers	   ...............$1,795/pr(Direct from Company)
   KEF 104/2 3-Way Speakers	   ...............$2400/pr
   PSB Stratus Gold 3-Way Speakers ...............$2000/pr
   Spica Angelus 2-Way Speakers    ...............$1,275/pr
   Thiel CS 2.2 3-Way Speakers     ...............$2,250/pr
   Vandersteen 2Ce 		   ...............$N/A

Nice list...  If you have the space, I would look at the Apogee Stage.
It's tough to beat ribbons for transparency...  ($2400)

   Wayne N. Lattery

Good luck...

Ken

================================================================
From: King Arthur <arthur@u.washington.edu>

I highly recommend Nakamichi!!!  It is DEFINATELY worth checking out.  I think
that if you are going to spend that kind of money that you will be doing yourr d
Nakamichi deck and it is fantastic.  I know of some people that have high end o!


      Something to think about-----good luck!!

==============================================================
From: sek@sabre.bellcore.com (Spencer Kantor)


Wayne,

I just purchased a pair of Thiel CS 2.2 speakers and brought them home
last night.  I'll be connecting them this evening and will be happy to
give you my impressions in a few days.

My in-store impression of the Thiel is a well-balanced, accurate speaker
that is brutally revealing of both the original recording and associated
equipment.  They have very wide dispersion, good depth and imaging and
are completly lacking in coloration.  I suspect I'll be enjoying these
for a long time.

I will say I listened to a lot of speakers before deciding on the Thiel.
Ultimately it came down to a choice between the Thiel 2.2 and the Snell
Type C IV.  For some reason Snell doesn't get mentioned much when 
speakers such as Thiel, Vandersteen, KEF, B&W, et. al. are discussed
but I think they make a wonderful product.  The Type C IV are 
particularly impressive and well worth an audition.  It almost came
down to coin toss between the Thiel and Snell for me.

The only speaker I liked more than those were one of the Martin-Logan
models (I can't recall the name) but it was out of my price range and
aesthetically wouldn't work in my living room.  Some day though...

I didn't care for the Vandersteen 2ce.  I felt that there was a veil to
the sound.  I had wanted to audition the PSB Gold but the nearest dealer
was 1 1/2 - 2 hours away.

Good luck with your search and please post the responses you receive.

-- 
Spencer Kantor
Bell Communications Research

sek@nvuxr.cc.bellcore.com

=============================================================
From: greene@pan.arc.nasa.gov (tom greene)


Wayne,

I read your post in rec.audio.high-end regarding equipment recommendations
and noticed that you are considering purchasing the Luxman D-105U CD player
.  I have owned one for 2 years and have recently compared it to several
outboard D/A converters, so I will relate my opinions.  The player has
an incredible number of features and is reasonably built, although there
are no fast scan buttons on the remote control (they exist on the player
front panel only).  The tone of the player is very nice, with a very open
and airy high end and a lush midrange.  Extreme low bass and upper bass /
lower midrange are a bit weak, however.  The player has a very seductive,
3-D midrange - very realistic at times!  More expensive outboard D/A
converters (EAD DSP7000, Theta Pro Prime) have a much more robust bottom
octave (20-40 Hz).  This may not be as apparent if your speakers and amps
are a bit bass-shy, but then the whole system may be too detailed and
"lightweight."  I think that this player works best with speakers/amps that
are a bit "dark" and need some more high frequency (HF) life.  It is not
shrill, though.  Beware that the stock tubes degrade fairly rapidly; the
sound of mine deteriorated (muddier bass, peaky upper midrange, drooping
extreme HF) in about 1 - 1.5 yr.  They aren't expensive to replave,
though, about $20-$35 for the pair, but aren't very easy to get to
inside the machine.  I think that the EAD procesor clearly surpasses the
Luxman player in timbral rendition of instruments (they have more natural
tone) in addition to better frequency response.  The differences are
somewhat subtle, however (with possible exception of lowest bass), and I
believe that the Luxman is still a good buy if you can get it
discounted, in the $750-$850 range (e.g. mail order).  I suspect that it
is of equivalent quality to the Cal Icon II, but the 2 machines have
different strengths & weaknesses.  I think that the CAL Sigma D/A is
slightly superior to the Luxman, however.  The Sigma has more uniform
frequency response (better bass) and is as equally seductive & 3-D.  You
may want to consider buying the Sigma ($650 - $700) and an inexpensive
Magnavox CDB630 (c.a. $300) to use as a transport.

One final important note about the Luxman.  It has variable outputs
which sound quite good; a high quality stereo pot is driven by a motor.
Volume can be changed on the fron panel or via remote control, and the
current setting is displayed (in dB).  I use these variable outputs
directly into my power amps (VTL).  The VTL amps are rather sensitive
and I need no further gain.  I think that the max output of the Luxman
is about 2V with little or no DC offset.  This may allow you to put off
buying a preamp, and most D/A converters (e.g. all that I have
mentioned) lack variable outputs.  This also works in the Luxman's favor
re. performance:  removing the preamp from the signal chain audibly
improves sound quality, and this is not an option for competitive units
without variable outputs.  The sound is more immediate & clearer without
a preamp.  The convenience of remote control volume is also very nice.
I'd buy the player again today, I think, based on this convenience and
its sonic performance.

I hope that this helps some!

-Tom Greene
greene@pan.arc.nasa.gov

P.S.  I'd consider the Acoustic Research ES-1 turntable (~$700 with
arm?) and VTL amps also if I were you!

============================================================
From: jjd3@po.cwru.edu (James J. Dibenedetto)


Either Adcom is very nice...I've heard them driving a variety of speakers,
including the big Polk signature reference 1.2's...and one of the dealers
at Speaker Shop in Buffalo says an Adcom 535 (!) will drive anything in his
store (and they've got a pair of Martin-Logan Monolith III electrostatics
there!)...every review of the Adcom's I've read considers them a great bargain
and from my listening, I'd agree...


================================================================
From: donald@devv03.distri.hydro.qc.ca (Donald Robidoux)


I purchased a Dual Golden-1 with a Ortofon MC20-super cartridge (is it the 
right term?) last year.  I'm very please with it.  I got mine brand new with
the cartridge for $600 CAN (a really great deal 'cause everybody's looking
for CDs).  I listen to CDs in the $600-1200 price range and nothing comes close
to what I got with this turntable, plus all the vinyl sells for $2-5.

You should take a ear to this one.


Donald Robidoux
Oracle Corporation inc.
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


==================================================================
From: znpt01@trc.amoco.com (Norman P. Tracy)

Wayne,

This is MY OPINION and experience ONLY.

Amps:
Like everybody says, the Adcoms are good value for
the money but our local Adcom/Rotel dealer confides
the the Rotels have more real power and better sound
than the compareable Adcoms.

B&K, H&K, Sumo, Bryston - no direct experience but
at least they are USA companies which tend to offer the
best sound in these price ranges. 

Nakamichi - I love my ZX-7 tape deck, but a $2300
amp? Forget it! For that kind of money you can buy
a killer real high-end amp. Nak used to be as close
as Japan Inc. gets to a high end company but, sadly,
it seem those days are over. Now they make car-fi
and clock radios and try to have a line that fits
every price point from $300-$7000. The PA-7AII is
a three year old design based on technology from
Threshold (a real high-end company). For that kind
of money you can have a real Threshold instead of
a Threshold wannabe.

Pre-amps:
Go with the Rotel, put the money saved into your
source components. From your list it looks like
you want remote control. If you can do with out
it try the Counterpoint SA-1000 for a huge increase
in dynamics among other quality things. I've heard
the Counterpoint SA-1000 and their 100 wpc amp
(S?-100) make fantastic music together.

CD Players:
Cal Audio never sounds less that excellent and their
service and customer support is fantastic. Two of
my "analog forever" audiophile friends have bought
Arias, they sound fantastic. The Icon is my vote
for best-buy in under $1000 CD player. You can find
a different mix of strengths and weaknesses in the
HK, JVC, Luxman, Sony, Phillips, etc but they won't
care about you the way CAL will. I've heard the
Lux D-105U and it is not worth $1200, and I like
tubes.

Turntables:
Dual for $1200?!?!?!?! Oh no no no no. Any Linn
(now you're on the right track) SOTA, or VPI
will, shall we say BLOW IT AWAY! Do not spend
that kind on money without investigating the
VPI HW-19jr, about $800.

Tape decks:
I HATE all double well auto-reverse decks. Why
buy two mediocre decks in one box when for the
same $ gets a good single deck?

Speakers:
You're on the right track, I wouldn't presume
to tell anybody which speaker to buy, its too personal
and wrapped up in your musical preferences. In these
price levels I would recommend you hear the lower end
of the Apogee line.

Advice:
Don't let the net pick your system, least of all me.
Trust your ears, they are connected to the brain
and heart you are trying to please.

                    Norman Tracy

==========================================================
From: brook@phx.mcd.mot.com (Brook Burson)

>Amplifers
>---------
I would recommend the B&K amps if you want to keep the price down.
The ST-202 Plus is 748, not 848.  It's quite nice, but I would
recommend upgrading to the B&K EX-442 Sonata.  It's also 200wpc
but is a much better sounding amp.  It lists for $948.  The Adcom's
aren't bad either, although they can be a little hard or harsh
sounding, especially if your preamp or CD player aren't up to 
snuff.  The Rotel's not too bad either in the lower price class.
Since you're showing prices up in the $2000 range, also consider
the Aragon 4004, the Counterpoint SA-100, and Solid-1.  Bryston is
also a definite contender.


>Preamp/Tuners
>-------------
I wouldn't buy a preamp tuner if I wanted a seriously Hi-End System.
It's not that a company can't build a Hi-End preamp tuner.  It's just
that they don't.  You'll do much better getting a stand alone preamp
that will give you much better sound.  Then buy a tuner to go along
with it.  I would recommend:  B&K Pro-10, Counterpoint Solid 8, SA-1000,
or SA-3000, or a preamp only Adcom unit.

>CD Players
>----------
You really owe it to yourself to hear the new EAD (Enlightened Audio
Designs) DSP-7000 D/A convertor.  You can use it with an inexpensive
CD player that has a digital out.  List price is $1395, but this
unit is just as good as the Theta DSPro, priced at near $4000.  This
was the hot D/A at the recent CES.  One of the Stereophile reviewers
there said it was the first time he'd heard digital that sounded like
analog.  At our Audio Club meeting, this unit was the definite favorite
among many, including the afore mentioned Theta.  EAD will be coming
out with an all in one CD player this Fall, so if you aren't going to
buy for a while, that could be an option.

>
>Turntables(The turntable is not a priority right not, but I got my eye on these)
>-----------
Consider a VPI Jr.  $950 with arm.  Personal opinion is that it beats
a Linn.  A used LP-12 can be a really great deal though.  Just be sure
you have a good Linn dealer who can set it up correctly for you.  Linn
tables are extemely picky about setup.


>Tape Decks
>-----------
When it comes to tape decks, I think it all depends on what you're going
to use the tapes for.  If you mix tapes for your car, don't spend a lot
of money.  You can get decent decks for under $500 that will do a good
job.  If you're going to record tapes for the house, don't spend a lot
of money if your only going to listen to the tapes in background /party
situations.  If you want to seriously listen, listen to the source -
either CD or record.  No Cassette deck can duplicate the sound just
right, so listen to the source.


>Speakers
>---------
>I still listening but these are in my list as of now
>
>B&W 804 3-Way Speakers		   ...............$2,200/pr
>Icon Parsec 3-Way Speakers	   ...............$1,795/pr(Direct from Company)
>KEF 104/2 3-Way Speakers	   ...............$2400/pr
>PSB Stratus Gold 3-Way Speakers    ...............$2000/pr
>Spica Angelus 2-Way Speakers       ...............$1,275/pr
>Thiel CS 2.2 3-Way Speakers        ...............$2,250/pr
>Vandersteen 2Ce 		   ...............$N/A

All very good speakers.  When it comes to speakers, a lot of personal
preference comes into play.  Listen to them all, as well as some 
other competitors, and then pick the one YOU like best.  If possible,
get the dealers to let you take them home to try.  Also, consider these
additional speakers: Genesis, Eminent Technology, 3A, Apogee.

I do have to admit I'm biased (but aren't we all?).  I am a dealer for
some of these products that I recommend.  But I do have to say that I 
wouldn't be selling them if I didn't think they were among the best 
available in the price ranges.  The reason I'm in this business is
because I'm an audiophile - not because I love business.

I encourage you to support your local dealer.  Don't buy mail order
unless you can't find what you want locally.  If your local dealer doesn't
have an item that I do happen to be a dealer for, I would appreciate
being your dealer.  email or call me if you would like any literature
on: B&K, Genesis, EAD, Eminent Technology, Counterpoint, Aragon, VPI.

===========================================================================
Brook Burson			|  Listen,
Sound Alternatives		|  and think of all the possibilities
(602)224-9400			|  before you judge.
brookb@phx.mcd.mot.com		|
===========================================================================

======================================================================
From: Scott Dorsey <kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov>


Don't forget the Adcom GFA-535, which sounds significantly better than the
555.  Not quite as much power, but depending on what speakers you pick, this
may not be a problem at all.
--scott

======================================================================
From: mohan@yoko.rutgers.edu

I recently bought a pair of speakers in the same price range. This is
what I came up with:
Vandersteen 3's sound better than the 2ce's. However, after listening
to the Thiel's, I stopped liking the Vandersteen's. The V's lack
transparency, but are good on bass. The thiel's are very good on
transparency and imaging. The Thiel 2.2 lacks bass however. The  Thiel
3.5 has much better bass, without losing any of the high-end, but
costs a little more ($2800). That is what I ended up buying. I should
probably have listened to the PSB Stratus Golds and the Scientific
Fidelity Tesla's, but by that time I was so fed up listening, that I
just went for it. I also listened to the Marti Logans, and did not
like them. Not enough dynamics. The other speakers that sounded good
were the Infinity Renaissance 80. 

At the end of it all, I still miss the live performance-like bass in
my speakers, though I love the transparency, detail and imaging on my
Thiels. My conclusion is that the only way to get the bass is to get a
sub-woofer. So I do not know what the best combination in this price
would be. 

By the way, I listen to Jazz and Classical; mostly Jazz. So to me,
lifelike bass IS important. Unfortunately, most "audiophile" speakers
concentrate on the middle and high end.

===================================================================
From: richard.fecteau@channel1.com (Richard Fecteau)


WL>Amplifers
WL>---------
WL>Adcom GFA-555II 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$799

A relative of mine has the original 555, it is very good.

WL>B&K Video 5 Sonata 525W Amplifer  ................$1,298
WL>B&K ST-202 Plus 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$848

I presently own a B&K Pro 5 preamp and a ST-202 amp. You can't go wrong 
with either. Actually I'd encourage you to get the Pro 10MC preamp 
(better construction quality).

WL>Preamp/Tuners
WL>-------------

See above.

WL>CD Players
WL>----------

Go for a Rotel, Adcom, or NAD. They are excellent at their price points. 
They are also cheaper than the ones you listed.

WL>Turntables(The turntable is not a priority right not, but I got my eye
WL>-----------

I have an AR ES-1, it's great for the price. Hard to find anywhere but 
from Audio Advisor, a mail order high-end dealer.

WL>Speakers
WL>---------
WL>Vandersteen 2Ce 		   ...............$N/A

Worth EVERY penny. You just can't go wrong with them. I think they're 
about $1300.


===============================================================
From: MYJAK@titan.ksc.nasa.gov


hi.

>Amplifers
>---------
>Adcom GFA-555II 200-W/ch Amplifer ................$799
>Adcom GFA-565 300-W/ch Amplifer   ................$850 each

you will not be disatisified with either of these amps.

>Preamp/Tuners
>-------------
>Adcom GTP-500II Preamp/Tuner	   ...............$600
>Carver CT-17 Preamp/Tuner   	   ...............$800

Either is good; I prefer the Carver -- especially if you want multi-room
preamp or dual source/recording monitor loops. The adcom is pure/basic.

>CD Players
>----------

get your darts out on this one.

>Turntables
>-----------

same as above.

>Tape Decks
>-----------
>I am looking at the top of the line Denon reference deck and the 
>top of the line JVC double autoreverse tape deck.

Add the Pioneer Elite to your list here.

>Speakers
>---------

these you definitely have to listen to for your self.  Nobody can tell you
what kind of sound you like to hear.  (try the Klipsch Corner horns... :^)


yer welcome!

- Michael D. Myjak			
  MYJAK@TITAN.KSC.NASA.GOV

===================================================================
From: AICHERKJ%WHITMAN.BITNET@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu

Dear Wayne,
Why isn't the Rotel 855ax/bx CD player on your list? Why spend more money than
you really need to? The Rotel is a top notch player. IMHO the Rotel is the best
player for under 1000.00! But hey I wish you luck in your search. I vote for
the Adcom 555 Amp by the way......

Kelly Aicher
Whitman College
Wally World, Wa
IKE MAN the BYK FXR     HAPPY LISTENING................
===================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end