HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: axg20@po.CWRU.Edu (Ashwath Ganesan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Two birds with, well, two stones, I guess...
Date: 29 Sep 1992 04:58:01 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: axg20@po.CWRU.Edu (Ashwath Ganesan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, s914311@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Mr Some-one) says:
>
>	In the books, around dragon flight i think, it says somewhere that the
>fire lizards have a greater memory than the dragons.  It was also explained 
>that this is because when Kitty Ping(???) engineered the dragons, she enhanced
>the telepathic powers of the firelizards.  To do this she had to take something
>away.  Well, that was also stated as being part of their (dragons) memory.
>
>	So, in my view, I would say that the fl are more intelligent than the
>dragons.
>
>Just my opinion.
>
>-- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>|John Oliver                   |      Life is just a      |
>|s914311@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au  |    temporary state of    |
>|+61 3 789-4013                |        confusion.        |
>


That's true... that fl's have a greater memory than the dragons do.  However,
that memory manifests itself most truly in a racial memory, which seems
rather rigidly confined to the distant past... although this imbalance
might just be a result of insufficient development of other areas due
to plot concerns.  And fl's DO have a not-insignificant memory of their
own.  However, their ability to learn is somewhat limited.  True, it is
rather obviously higher than that of any other known animal/pet.  But
even with their memory, it takes Menolly quite a while to train them
to do things... and most fl's are still rather... well, useless, as
crass as that might sound.

Dragons, on the other hand, seem to possess the ability to learn, as well 
as communicate articulately, and make decisions based on deliberation
as well as instinct.  Mnementh's side comments to F'lar during meetings
and the like are classic examples, as are Ruth's conversations with Jaxom...
although Ruth is somewhat simplistic at times, having very few concerns.

One thing I'd like to say, however ... is that I was a bit harsh on
fl's in my previous post.  What I was trying to do was to get the 
idea across that on MU*s, their abilities were rather frequently
overestimated.  I'm not implying that they are stupid, unperceptive
creatures.  They ARE rather intelligent, but on an animal level, or 
on a level between animal and human, while dragons more closely approach
or approximate a human level... (meaning dragons are superior in some
senses, as in their instinct, but not in others, like memory)

-K'ban, rider of blue Rogarth, weyrlingmaster of Eastern Weyr.
-- 
I really don't mind, if you sit this one out...    | <= Jethro Tull
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout.     | -Ashwath Ganesan-
I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.   | -among others-
Your sperm's in the gutter, your love's in the sink.| -axg20@po.cwru.edu-
From: ktoast@milton.u.washington.edu (Toast M. Jost)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: YO PHIL!
Keywords: stop!!!
Date: 29 Sep 92 21:58:16 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

PHIL -- With all due respect... Please use a little more imagination in your posts.  If I read 'narrow minded' or 'force' one more time, I do believe I'll scream.  Nobody is 'forcing' you to do or be anything.  Even MUSHes are voluntary. :/



Cameen 
Apprentice Vintner on SouCon
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: bob@cheetah.inmos.co.uk (Bob Green)
Subject: Re: Favorite book covers
Organization: INMOS Limited, Bristol, UK
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 08:33:03 GMT

I'll try to remember to bring my copies in and scan the covers. Don't hold your
breath though, it may take me a while.

-Bob

-- 
| Bob Green          Inmos Ltd, Bristol       bob@inmos.co.uk
|                                         or  bob@inmos.com        
|The opinions above are the rantings of a madman and therefore could
|not possibly reflect Inmos policy.
From: julius@cco.caltech.edu (julius yang)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Drudges--What are they?
Date: 27 Sep 92 22:51:40 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

retief@iastate.edu (Jim Miller) writes:

>Has anyone else ever thought about this?  In Dragonflight drudges are
>basically slaves, but then so is most everybody else under Fax.  I
>don't remember where, but I thought it said somewhere that drudges
>were the mentally retarded or disabled put to work they could
>understand but this seems unlikely as the original colonists screened
>for 'defects' I thought.  I remember seeing drudges in Ruatha under
>Lytol/Jaxom too.  It seems to me to be contrary both to the original
>intentions of the colonists and to the attitudes of the major
>characters.

Over 2500 Turns genetic drift and inbreeding could easily cause problems
despite the supposed perfection of the initial pool.  (I'm no biologist,
but it seems reasonable to me!)  What bothers me is that drudges seem to
be a necessary and large part of every major Hold's workforce, and yet
they can't POSSIBLY be such a large segment of the population.  Humans
are generally healthy stock, after all.  Think living in all that rock
causes radiation mutation faster? :)
I don't think you can really equate a drudge with a slave--though instances
of drudge mistreatment exist it's not as if guards have to be standing over
them all the time.

F'zik
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
julius yang                     To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and
julius@tybalt.caltech.edu       the season of mists; and may each and every
julius@iago.caltech.edu         one of us always give the devil his due. --NG
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: kruegek@stein.u.washington.edu (Kirby Krueger)
Subject: Re: A Bedtime Story
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 01:03:18 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.062435.7006@pimacc.pima.edu> ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu writes:
>In article <1992Oct3.345565.35353@ghostwheel.dartmouth.edu>, takkyon@dartmouth.edu (Dr. Tachyon) writes:
> 
>
>Belittlement of AM's vision of a the hypothetical world she calls Pern is
>a classic sign of intolerance. The same tactic has been used in the past
>against homosexuals & various minorities.
> 
No, this is a classic sign of literary criticism.  Yes, you won your little
battle, and AM has verified your interpretation.  This does not mean that 
we can't say that it was a poorly chosen interpretation.  I criticize 
authors all the time - some people make their living off of it.  Disagreement
with AM is not intolerence.  You claim to be oppressed, yet are by far the
most dogmatic of the bunch.  Yes, you were right, as you are boasting about
constantly now. (Hint: it isn't winning you any friends here.  You come 
across as quite egotistical.  I don't want to flame you excessively, though,
here.)  

Please, can you not see that intolerence is not a valid description of this?
Disagreement is more accurate.  This isn't the only case I disagree with
AM's Pern. (Or, more accurately, think she should have done it a different
way. She screwed up, whatever.)  The way that draconic abilities such as 
lifting things are handled in ATWOP (I'm being vague for spoilers sake)
was pretty horrendous, IMHO.  Is this intolerance of AM?  I sure doubt it.

And, to the best of my knowledge, nobody on a PernMUSH has forced you to
have sex as a result of a mating flight.  If they say it is preferred, that
is not intolerance.  Once they actually force you to do it, you've got a
valid complaint.  (Although I'd suggest that if you have severe problems with
policy, you might find a different place to play rather than rant and rave
in the middle of everyone else's fun.)

And is telling you to shut up intolerance?  Perhaps.  But face it -   
virtually every issue that gets brought up now has been beaten to death
before.  I'd suggest that you let it die.  I'd suggest that the rest of
you let PHIL die. Er, I mean, stop responding to PHIL as well.  PHIL, lose
the persecution complex and ego trip.  You may be right, but you do come
across as somewhat of a jerk when you act like that.

Well, I didn't intend to write this much, or really flame PHIL as much.
But, in closing, I am not saying that your interpretation is incorrect. I 
am saying that it is not wrong to think that the correct interpretation is
not the best one.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: retief@iastate.edu (Jim Miller)
Subject: Drudges--What are they?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 18:28:51 GMT

Has anyone else ever thought about this?  In Dragonflight drudges are
basically slaves, but then so is most everybody else under Fax.  I
don't remember where, but I thought it said somewhere that drudges
were the mentally retarded or disabled put to work they could
understand but this seems unlikely as the original colonists screened
for 'defects' I thought.  I remember seeing drudges in Ruatha under
Lytol/Jaxom too.  It seems to me to be contrary both to the original
intentions of the colonists and to the attitudes of the major
characters.

-- 
Jim Miller <retief@iastate.edu>  IowaStateUniversity.  ComS Jr.
#include <multipagefunnyquote.h>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Absolutely No Mention of You-Know-Who In This Thread.  Honest.
From: ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:34:33 -0700

In article <1992Oct6.454364.46456@ghostwheel.dartmouth.edu>, takkyon@dartmouth.edu (Dr. Tachyon) writes:
> 
> Just to start a new and potentially even-more-flammable thread, I thought
> I'd mention the following discussion, which arose on PernMUSH this
> morning:
> 
> Of the Weyrs, Fort and Benden are conclusively proven by the books to
> have running water and baths.  Which, if any, of the other Weyrs might?
> 

Well my recollection is that both Forts (weyr & hold) & Benden Weyr
were constructed using the stonecutting machines while the others
were not. Someone previously posted, I believe, that the stonecutting
machines were used for parts of other weyrs. I think that this would
result in a lack of a number of "creature comforts" in the later weyrs
& holds. The extent of the difference after centuries have gone by
& various things worn out , etc. is open to question, in my mind.
My opinion is that I would doubt that you would find all the luxuries
described in the first book when F'lar takes Lessa to his weyr to be
very widespread.

PHIL

Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: aw1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Andrew Wargo)
Subject: Re: Film possibility???
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:29:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.203039.22579@nmsu.edu> amolitor@nmsu.edu (Andrew Molitor) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.174031.22203@ra.msstate.edu> aw1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Andrew Wargo) writes:
>>
>>I'd like to see a Dragonflight movie almost as bad as I'd like to be in it!!
>
>	When I read this, I thought it was, hooray!, someone against
>the movie idea. Seriously, turning these books, or any decent books,
>in to movies destroys one's mental images entirely. The same with
>graphic novels. Bleah. I *like* what my imagination does, and I sure
>don't need Mr. George "Rotten Taste" Lucas or Steven "Aesthetics? What?"
>Spielberg ruining its work.
>
>	If you do not have mental images of this sort worth preserving,
>you have at least my sympathy.
>
>	Andrew
>


*chuckle* I'd hate for this to turn out like the Clan of the Cave Bear movie.
I'd hope someone from the AM group would consult on the movie.
--
Regnat Populus!  | aw1@ra.msstate.edu | kith-kanan@rhostshyl.cit.cornell.edu
The People Rule! | awargo@nyx.cs.edu  | MU* Chars.: Kith-Kanan, Akkad,
                 |                    | Stormbringer, Kithan
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: eow9232@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Do Fire Lizards have intelligence?
Reply-To: eow9232@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 21:03:45 GMT

I'm really confused.  In Dragonsong, it seems like Fire Lizards are dumb
creatures who exist only emotionally (ie no rational thought) and lack
the native intelligence to escape high tides.  How can the big dragons
be intelligent if this is what they come from?  I thought the genetic
engineering only effected size...

Long-Bow
From: ambar@cygnus.com (Jean Marie Diaz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: The use of kill files (was Re: A Bedtime Story)
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:01:17 GMT
Organization: Redheads Anonymous

In article <1992Oct5.143229.408@ra.msstate.edu> aw1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Andrew Wargo) writes:

   It'll really chap my hide to unsubscribe to this Newsgroup because
   you children won't stop bickering...this is alt.fan.pern, not
   alt.stupid.squabbles

I suggest that those of you who are oh-so-maturely screaming SHUT UP at
the purveyors of this, or any other, thread, get acquainted with the
magic of kill files.  Failing that, simply mark read those articles
whose subjects tip you off that they're part of an uninteresting thread,
without actually laying eyes on all that worthless text.  Any modern
newsreader will let you do this with a keystroke or two, and it's much
easier on the blood pressure of all involved.

And you don't make yourself look like a fool by screaming at people to
stop talking in the multi-cast multi-conversation world that is Usenet.

AMBAR, usenet admin since 1985.  Nothing much has changed, except the names.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: jmars@mta.ca (Jennifer K. Mars)
Subject: moreta
Reply-To: jmars@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:58:18 GMT

	I was upset enough at the end of _Moreta_ to ruin some poor 
person's reading of _Dragonfquest_ on the subway by asking him
if Prideth and Wirenth had died yet.  But, like that second
episode, it really brings home the risks involved in being a
dragonrider... and frankly, keeps the books from being so sugar
coateed that you can't get through them (ever read AM's non-fantasy
fiction? :))

	Thread falls. People die. Except on PernMUSH. :)

				-Shandra.
From: bfbear@penn.Gwinnett.COM (Penn Collins)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Drudges--What are they?
Date: 26 Sep 92 21:14:33 GMT

retief@iastate.edu (Jim Miller) writes:
> Has anyone else ever thought about this?  In Dragonflight drudges are
> basically slaves, but then so is most everybody else under Fax.  I
> don't remember where, but I thought it said somewhere that drudges
> were the mentally retarded or disabled put to work they could
> understand but this seems unlikely as the original colonists screened
> for 'defects' I thought.  I remember seeing drudges in Ruatha under
> Lytol/Jaxom too.  It seems to me to be contrary both to the original
> intentions of the colonists and to the attitudes of the major
> characters.

I wondered as well, Camo was described as 'half witted' (at the HarperCraft
Hall) and I wondered if this was a convenient place for the handicapped folk
(I hope and pray Anne is not that mean)...but what about holdless people?
or maybe a surf type system? (tho I don't see Pern fitting that way)
It does seem to be a quirk (I take it/gather that the drudges in the weyrs
are folks that didn't/haven't impressed yet??)

gad, now that I think about it, I have no idea how they fit, and wonder about it
as well.....also since Camo is mentioned, by name, I gather this is not a
sex discrimination thing...
From: msjle@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Joi L. Ellis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Drudges--What are they?
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:43:20 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network

I just found a large paperback edition of DGP (printing date-DECEMBER
1992! right) and have been reading through it nonstop since.  I ran
across a paragraph (somewhere between the FORT and BENDEN descriptions)
that says drudges are generally the mentally defective.  

Note that there are a number of birth defects and such that are caused
by the age and overall health of the mother, not the parents' genetics.  (Down
Syndrome is a good example.)  

In a culture with no general birth control (in my remembrance, anyway)
there would likely be a higher proportion of  Downs individuals than we
have here, due to the larger number of 'late' babies, especially in the
holds.
-- 
Joi Ellis                      msjle@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
Student Residential Programs   Western Illinois University
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: bchoinsk@nyx.cs.du.edu (Burton Choinski)
Subject: Re: Dragon Poker
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 12:54:21 GMT

In article <91796@netnews.upenn.edu> lwl@pdiff.cis.upenn.edu (Lydia Leong) writes:
>Does anyone want to hazard a guess or even just plain make up a
>set of rules for the game of dragon poker? We're not really given
>much information about the game at all.

I also created a set of dragonpoker cards on PernMUSH (Hunting lodge #41428,
enter poker table).  My deck only has two harper cards added, but it does
work okay.

A'lon (Rider of Bronze Zienth, PernMUSH) cranked out the various odds
of various card combinations (which are slightly different than standard
poker odds).

The following info is copied from my data sheet.  I tried to come up with
Pernese names for the hands, rather then just "two of a kind", "flush", etc.

Order of Cards (highest value to lowest):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ace
Weyrleader      Craftmaster     Lord-Holder
Weyrwoman       Journeyman      Lady-Holder
Wingsecond      Apprentice      Steward
Weyrling        Student         Holder
13 through 2

Order of Winning Hands (highest to lowest):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5 of a kind     (requires 2 harper cards)
wedding gather  (all cards same suit, in order with no gaps)
4 of a kind     (requires at least 1 harper card)
full hold       (a conclave and an impression)
wedding         (all cards in order with no gaps, any suit)
conclave        (three of a kind)
gather          (all cards same suit)
hatching        (two impressions)
impression      (two of a kind)
high card

He only calculated with one and two harper cards -- having three may alter
it in strange ways.

I could not think of a good term for 4 and 5 of a kind, but Conclave
seemed perfect for 3 of a kind ("a meeting of three equals")

Rulewise, I suppose normal poker rules are used.  It depends on how many
earth games you think the colonists played.

     Savrel, Huntleader at Ista Weyr, PernMUSH
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: AtWoP - paperback?
From: ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: 30 Sep 92 04:08:23 -0700

Speaking of AtWoP, does anyone know when the paperback is coming
out? I want to add it to my collection.
From: axg20@po.CWRU.Edu (Ashwath Ganesan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Two birds with, well, two stones, I guess...
Date: 27 Sep 1992 20:59:59 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: axg20@po.CWRU.Edu (Ashwath Ganesan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu



Well, as ambiguous as that subject is, I suppose I should explain it..
I'm responding to both the firelizard intelligence post and the economy
of the weyr one.

Well... geesh, I should really stop starting my sentences with well... 

Anyways, <there, that's better>, as far as I can see, fl's in the
books have the collective intelligence of an avacado patch. (do
avacados GROW in patches?  you can flame me on that part if you want...
the rest is asbestos coated).  Sure, they have a rudimentary type of
empathy... I wouldn't even call it telepathy, and they have some
instinct, and can learn in desparate situations.  So can my beagle.
Doesn't mean my beagle is projecting to anyone.  Heh.  So I guess I 
have, once again, sinned by bringing up that most forbidden subject
of MU*'s.  One thing that continually irritates me, is the fact that
firelizards seem more intelligent than their 'owners.'  I mean, if you
want to play stupid, that's fine... but literate, conversational
fl's is a bit much.  Then again, I CAN understand using fl's as 
an ooc megaphone... so don't take that as a flame...
Oh, and the queen letting Menolly seems more a demonstration of really
blatant plot manipulation on Anne's part than intelligence on the
part of that poor used firelizard.

On to the next topic (tally ho!)

As I make it, marks are minted by the woodsmiths for use by all the halls and
holds.  They mint a certain amount for each craft/hold every year or
fiscal annum or whatever they use on Pern anyways.  So, if you really
wanted an economy on the weyr, just have the woodsmiths start minting 
coin for the weyr.  Sure, this causes inflation on Pern, and can flood
the market, since the weyr already receives tithes.  But, folks, can
you really see a stock market crash or a depression on Pern?  I didn't
think so.  Problem solved.

Well, I'm off... 

K'ban, rider of blue Rogarth, weyrlingmaster @ soucon.

Oh, and me, Ashwath, too.
-- 
I really don't mind, if you sit this one out...    | <= Jethro Tull
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout.     | -Ashwath Ganesan-
I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.   | -among others-
Your sperm's in the gutter, your love's in the sink.| -axg20@po.cwru.edu-
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: kruger@math.okstate.edu (Valentine)
Subject: Re: Dragonflight Graphic Novel
Organization: The Certifiably Insane [aka MUSH wizzes] 
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 21:02:48 GMT

In article <snip> morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett) writes:
>
>Pretty (IMNSHO) pictures and all, I -believe- the character designs
>were based on _People_of_Pern_; someone who got the previous
>limited series can probably verify or confirm this.

	I have the first and the third of the limited....and, yes,
the designs .seem. to be based off of _People of Pern_. I can't
guarantee it though, as I've only looked through _People of Pern_
twice, and didn't really have the time to study the picture and
compare them. :)

	However, I did enjoy the limited series a lot. It wasn't
fantastic, but it was good.

>(No, I don't work for Eclipse.)

	Neither do I. :)

		Cera

>     ___________                                             ___________
>     |         |             M A L A C H I T E               |         |
>     |   '"'   |                                             |   '"'   |
>     |  '"""'  |                 Brum Hold                   |  '"""'  |
>     |  """""  |                                             |  """""  |
>      \'"""""'/           morpheus@cco.caltech.edu            \'"""""'/
>       \_____/   "Yo he yo!"                 "Rice is Nice!"   \_____/

-- 
kruger@hardy.math.okstate.edu       |||  "Wishes may bring problems 
Deirdre@PernMUSH (wiretap.spies.com)|||   Such that you regret them. 
Delaney@ValdeMUSH (emcnext.tamu.edu)|||   Better that, though, than to 
IFGS character of the month: Lydia  |||   Never get them." --Into the Woods
From: mas@calmasd.Prime.COM (Marisa SorBello)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Pern Board Game
Date: 6 Oct 92 19:20:21 GMT
Organization: Computervision, San Diego, CA

Has anyone played the Pern board game?  I'm curious to know what
the age level is and if it's an entertaining game before I shell
out the bucks.

-- Marisa
From: mccall@Oswego.EDU (D. Todd Mccall)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: A Bedtime Story
Summary: Enough is enough, really.
Date: 2 Oct 92 17:20:08 GMT
Reply-To: mccall@oswego.Oswego.EDU (D. Todd Mccall)
Organization: Instructional Computing Center, SUNY at Oswego, Oswego, NY



Is it really necessary to carry on personal arguments on the net? Why not use
email and leave those of us who really dont care along? BTW I'm talking to *both*
sides of this argument, not just one.

- Jalnar, apprentice smith
--  who is really tired of this should be dead argument.

all IMHO of course.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern