From: lady@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Lee Lady)
Subject: Re: the forum
Followup-To: sci.psychology
Summary: "The Forum" = "est," slightly transformed.  
Keywords:  est   The Forum
Organization: University of Hawaii (Mathematics Dept)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:45:11 GMT

In article <aczn-f+.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>
>The only connection between the forum and the est training is that
>both were invented by Werner Erhard. They have completely different
>roots, approaches and goals.  

I went through The Forum about two years ago and the trainer we had made
no secret about the fact that the Forum is just a new name for est.  A
participant in my training who had been through est many years before
also said that it was basically just the same stuff.  (The trainer I had
was the veterinarian -- Herb Tanzer.)  

>The est training was designed, I think, to deal with the focus on
>the individual of the '70s and early '80s. It is an approach to
>the same sort of enlightenment provided by Zen and some other
>disciplines. It uses semi-shock techniques to get people to step ... 

Yes, this part has been changed.  It's much softer now.  

>The forum examines the being of human beings, the nature of being,
>the nature of man, and the nature of a rewarding life. It draws
>almost entirely on the work of the philosopher Heidegger, though ...

Actually, they present many philosophical arguments that are as old as
Greek philosophy.  They don't say anything about the fact that there are
equally compelling arguments on the other side of these issues and that
philosophers have been debating them for more than two thousand years
now.  

>In the forum people get up and go to the bathroom whenever they feel
>like it, and the atmosphere is one of respect and gentle leading,
>rather than confrontation.

Yes, but in my training you still had to tell one of the assistants in the
back of the room your reason for leaving.  

People were not chewed out individually for being late, but the class as
a whole was berated for the fact that a few people were late.  (One
thing I have always thought is especially stupid is berating people who
are present because other people are absent.  And it certainly seemed
contrary to the attitudes we were supposedly being taught.)  

>...by mainstream professional advice from such people. Both programs have
>been participated in by ordinary citizens, physicians, psychiatrists,
>rabbis, Catholic Bishops, educators, senior business executives, and
>other "centrist" types. Neither program has a particularly "new age"
>artsy craftsy or fringe tone, though a few beards and sandals
>occasionally show up.  

I would say that, if anything, there was a somewhat yuppy flavor to the
audience.  

I thought that the material was basically good.  There was an emphasis on
taking responsibility for your own life, not seeing yourself as a victim.
And being willing to "get off it" and apologize instead of insisting that
you're right.  And that even when you're right about something, that only
means that you're right from your own point of view.  

On the other hand, I found the way the training was run offensive.  They
ran it like a boot camp.  


A funny thing happened at the end of the training.  I used an NLP
approach to effectively implement the basic Forum attitude in a way that
completely disconcerted Tanzer.  What happened was that they wanted us to
divide up into sections according to our plans for taking or not taking
the next seminar.  Those who were definitely not planning to take it were
supposed to sit in the middle of the room, write down their reasons for
not taking the next seminar, and wait for one of the assistants to come
and discuss it with them.  

I wanted to get out of the room and start my break.  So after a few
minutes I just wrote down on my card "Because I don't want to," thrust it
at one of the assistants and started to walk out.  Then Tanzer came over
and told me I was being a real shit.  I answered that I was definitely
not being a shit and I was not about to be forced to justify the fact
that I didn't want to take their course and then be pressured to change
my mind.  

So he said, "But that's only your interpretation of the situation.  There
are lots of other interpretations.  The concept of pressure is only in
your mind.  Another way of looking at this is that we care about you and
want the best for you."  And at that, I totally changed my whole demeanor
and gave him a big warm smile and put my arm around his shoulders for
a second and said "Thank you for that."  And walked off, leaving him
looking bothered and bewildered.

That accomplished my goal, which was to get out of the room.  And it
handled the situation in exactly that way that the Forum recommends.  
But one doesn't *DO* that!  One doesn't just put their arm around an est
trainer without an invitation, because unlike an NLP trainer, an est
trainer is an authority figure.  

--
It is a poor sort of skepticism which merely delights in challenging
those claims which conflict with one's own belief system.  
                                                          --Bogus quote 
lady@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu         lady@uhunix.bitnet
Newsgroups: sci.psychology