From: lowry@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry)
Subject: Re: Aggression in boys (Was: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 17:03:31 GMT
Distribution: na
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
	<1992Oct7.162053.3664@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
	<LOWRY.92Oct7170735@rotor.watson.ibm.com>
	<1992Oct8.134926.3740@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <1992Oct8.134926.3740@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> nance@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (nancy.l.colucci) writes:
 > In article <LOWRY.92Oct7170735@rotor.watson.ibm.com> lowry@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry) writes:
 > >In article <1992Oct7.162053.3664@cbfsb.cb.att.com> jjd1@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (james.j.dutton) writes:
 > > >  
 > >Incidentally, if my daughter ever meets your son and acts in a way
 > >you don't think is civil, and if you don't agree with my handling
 > >of the situation, you should think twice before "[doing] it
 > >[yourself]," by which I presume you mean you would take my child's
 > >disciplining into your own hands.
 > 
 > I'd love to see you, Andy, in a situation where you kid gets cut or
 > punched or bruised or hurt in some other way and the parents of the
 > kid won't so anything about it. Especially, say, if she's about
 > sixteen and comes home from the prom with her dress torn and her
 > dignity shattered and the law won't help you because there isn't
 > enough evidence and the school won't help you because the boy is
 > the star center of the basketball team and the parents don't
 > believe you and call your daughter a slut.  You're going to go use
 > logic to handle that?  I bet.

You have no idea how I'd react in such a situation, and frankly,
neither do I.  I hope I never have to find out.  You've basically
defined the situation so there doesn't appear to be any reasonable
course of action.

But what does this have to do with the discussion, anyway?  Have I
ever said that logic can always prevail?  No.  Have I said that it's
always wrong to fight?  No.  In fact, in my very first response to Mr.
Dutton I acknowledged that one should know how to defend oneself when
attacked.  I'll add that one should know how to distinguish situations
that require physical response from those that do not.  But would any
of that help my sixteen year old girl if the center of the basketball
team forced himself (with presumably far superior physical power) on
her?  Not at all.  No matter how prepared she is to defend herself,
she'll always be vulnerable to attack.  My earnest hope is that she
won't be attacked beyond her ability to defend herself, and I'll
consider it part of my parental duty to make that threshhold be
reasonably high.  But that doesn't mean I'll give her a handgun to
take to school, either.  At some point you draw the line, and then all
you have left is your earnest hope, because no matter what measures
you take, your child can still be victimized.

[Incidentally, I thank you for so vividly describing this personal
nightmare for me.  Just the sort of emotion-filled imagery I need to
jolt me into action when I get to the office.  I seem to recall that
Michael Dukakis took a lot of heat for not showing anger during a
debate when asked about a hypothetical situation involving the rape of
his wife.  The idea was that it was contemptible for this reporter to
have posed the question in such a personal manner.  Well, I still
think it's contemptible, and believe me you have angered me by doing
it.  But now back to the discussion...]

Where avenues of defense leave off, moral values in those who could
attack you is all that's left, and that's what this whole discussion
has been about from the beginning!  The point is for society as a
whole to stop accepting/encouraging excessive aggressiveness in boys
(in girls it's already generally curbed).  If the boys grow up
learning that certain types of aggressive behavior are wrong (like the
bullying incident that started this thread), perhaps they'll be less
likely to attack sixteen-year-old girls to begin with.

Maybe you disagree with this, but if not, please stop disagreeing with
me about things I've never said!

 > > > Yes the bully's father appears to be raising a serial killer or
 > > > at the very least someone who post's out of left field.
 > >High-flying hyperbole, unfounded personal attacks on me and on Diane
 > >Lin, attacks on feminism, macho posturing...  I expect if we met in a
 > >playground you'd try to knock me over.  I hope not too much of this
 > >rubs off on your son.
 > 
 > Andy, I know james and in my opinion he's one hell of a good parent
 > who is doing one hell of a good job raising two kids.  Both of them
 > would be damn lucky to have their father's values rub off on them.

I'll take your word for it.  His own words made me question his views
on aggression.  Never did I claim he's an inadequate parent in any
other respect.  There's already enough unfounded speculation like that
going on in this discussion.
--
Andy Lowry, lowry@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7925
IBM Research, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: misc.kids