From: robinson@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: New Subscriber and a look on hunting
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:28:08 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <s0ttz8q@rpi.edu>, schwae@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Eric A. Schwartz) writes:
> In article <dirk.701805434@vincent1.iastate.edu> dirk@iastate.edu (Sleepy) writes:
>>In <1992Mar27.082727.5985@rtf.bt.co.uk> traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes:
>>
>>>In article <1992Mar26.101119.4553@ac.dal.ca> robinson@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>>>
>>>>  Hint #3: It is a well known fact among hunters that deer who have 
>>>>survived prior hunting seasons catch on to the begining of one very quickly 
>>>>and become almost totally nocturnal.  Those who refuse to learn, and adapt, 
>>>>end up on the supper table.
>>>>
>>
>>>That  doesn't  sound  particularly nice to me. This implies that hunters do
>>>far  more  damage  than  just  kill  a  few  deer, they actually change the
>>>living habits of the animal.
>>
>>The hunting season forces the deer to become more defensive, if not, they die.
>> 
>>  In Iowa, hunters annually bag about 25% of the deer population. And each
>>year, the total deer population grows. It's not as if hunters are wiping
>>out the population.
>>
> But they may be damaging the quality of that population.  Besides, if you 
> are mainly catching the young, inexperienced animals, then the damage
> would not show up for a few years, until the old ones die off and you 
> are left with smaller, weaker, less able breeders to propagate the species.
> It's happened with Blue whales.  They are much smaller than they used to
> be.

Really?  How exactly is the population damaged?  You think hunters kill off 
all the really strong, smart deer, leaving the sick and weak behind?  Lets 
assume this is so for a moment.  Now, what happens right after hunting 
season?  Winter.  Winter is a time of harsh weather and little food.  Only 
the strongest survive it, and they're usually not in great shape at the 
end.

Also, lets not forget hunting is not the only thing that kills deer.  25% 
seems quite high to me.  I would be surprised if it was routinely more than 
10% in most places.  Roughly 40% of a herd must die EACH year to achieve 
zero growth.  Causes include old age, cars, winter starvation (which 
despite hunting season's occurance immediately prior to winter, the winter 
kill is usually higher than the hunting kill if I'm not mistaken), fawn 
mortality, other predators and hunting.

>  
>>
>>   And now, generic responses to other questions I saw. (not quoting  because
>>the quoting on Usenet sometimes get rediculous. :)
>> 
>>   How do deer learn to be afraid of humans ?
>>   It would seen to me as if younger deer simply follow the lead of older
>>deer, and catch a clue from them. Personal experience, gained over time, also.
> 
> Likely correct, though the scale may be too small.  It assumes there are
> enough experienced deer, and enough deer live through the season to gain
> experience.  25% is quite a large fraction killed off.  And if you then
> account for the fact that the already experienced ones are less likely
> to number among those 25%, it would seem few do manage to learn.
>  
>>It is quite obvious that deer learn _somehow_. Try sitting in a tree stand
>>and waiting for a deer to come along a _well-used_ trail.  If you avoid
>>moving, making noise, avoided leaving _any_ scent on the ground (damn near
>>impossible to do), pretty much act dead except for breathing, a deer
>>might walk by you.  
> 
>>   Otherwise, even though that deer has walked down that trail every
>>morning for the last year, s/he will smell human, maybe hear human, or
>>see human, and simply go the other way. I've seen it, I have heard about
>>it numerous times, I have read about it numerous times.
> 
> The reason that there are "Deer Crossing" signs on highways is that
> they do not stop using ancestral  trails.  Even with noisy, smelly
> cars running over them.  And they never seem to learn not to get hit
> by those.  IMO, it is more likely that it is specifically your behavior
> that scares the deer off.  You sit there like a sloppy predator, making
> an obvious effort to conceal yoursellf, but not doing a good job at it.
> Deer don't seem to fear cars.  IMO that is because cars are clearly not
> predators.  They move whether or  not they are seen, they take no 
> action to keep the deer upwind, they don't try to be quiet, they don't
> try to hide.  

Funny thing but deer usually aren't afraid of cars at all.  Stop the car 
and get out and *walk* however and they take off like someone hit them with 
lightning.

> 
> When I used to go horseback riding,  the stablemaster said he often
> saw deer, but only when on a horse.  The horse didn't act predatory,
> either, so the deer weren't afraid.  I've seen lots of wildlife, 
> some far more shy than deer, by not moving like a predator.  I go
> slowly, and avoid loud noises, but I don't make any effort to conceal
> myself or my presence.  In fact, I deliberately give it away.  That
> way, they know I'm not trying to attack them, and they don't run.

I'll have to try this next time I go hunting. :-)  During hunting season 
deer are usually ultra paranoid.  They will assume that falling leaf is 
predatory under some circumstances. :-)

>  
>>   Or, try hunting a deer on the ground. This is high near impossible.
>>A deer will probably see you long, long before you see it, hear you long
>>before you hear it... The only way to groundhunt deer is to move
>>_slowly_ (1/2 hour for 100 yards movement) around an area that is
>>usually active with deer, and hope that a deer comes wandering by, running
>>from other hunters.
> 
> Or sit by any highway.

Or use a light.  Around here one isn't allowed to do either.  Not allowed 
to shoot within several hundred yards of highways, buildings, etc.

> 
> E.S.
-- 
John Robinson                  Only criminals, tyrants, and cowards have
robinson@ac.dal.ca                 reason to fear the armed, honest citizen.
DOD #0069
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals