HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: With telepresence, who needs people in Earth orbit?
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 12:43:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.000341.22100@techbook.com> szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) writes:

>>I will judge it to be here when you allow a surgeon to do a heart bypass
>>on you by teleoperation with a 1/10 second delay. If you live, we can
>>talk about it.

>How about brain surgery?  Robots, for example the Puma 260 robot arm,
>have been doing stereotactic drilling, probe placement, and medicine ...

I note that they still have brain surgeons and they still don't
seem to have been replaced by robots. However, I'll accept that.
You may place whatever equipment you want in the OR. However, no
human (except you) is allowed in the room and all inputs and outputs
to the room are delayed by 1/10 second. I will allow you to set bandwidth
limits but remember, the more you use the less activity telepresence can
replace in space.

If you think you would survive (even with the Puma 260) with today's
technology then you do indeed need brain surgery :-). Personally, I
don't think you would survive long enough for them to get to your brain.

But if you do survive, then I will agree that for very small levels of
activity humans are not needed in space. We can then move on to the limits
set by your bandwidth requirements.

  Allen
-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they     |
|  aws@iti.org     |  put a man on the Moon?"                               |
+----------------------208 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+
From: bafta@cats.ucsc.edu (Shari L Brooks)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: what use is Freedom?
Date: 7 Oct 92 00:01:11 GMT
Organization: University of California - Santa Cruz, CA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <p#szd-n@rpi.edu> kentm@aix.rpi.edu (Michael V. Kent) writes:

>From the very first flight on, Freedom will have _twice_ the power output
>of Skylab.  By PMC, that will grow to six times.  Freedom also offers much
>expandability beyond PMC, and more power sources will be added before EMCC.

What does EMCC stand for?

-- 
If you blow fire against the wind, take care to not get the smoke in your eyes.
      Big & Growly Dragon-monster        |       bafta@cats.ucsc.edu
     ------> shari brooks <-------       |       bafta@ucscb.ucsc.edu
                             All opinions are my own.
From: keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: The Art of Robert McCall
Date: 5 Oct 92 04:44:04 GMT
Followup-To: sci.space
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

I noticed "The Art of Robert McCall" at a bookstore on Saturday. 
Unfortunately it was locked up and I didn't have time to ask to see it. 
Anyone checked it out?  How does it compare to "Our World In Space" (also
featuring McCall's work)?  I expect/hope that there's a lot of new stuff,
seeing as "Our World In Space" was published almost twenty years ago.  

Does anyone know if any of McCall's work is available in print form?  

Craig Keithley
Apple Computer, Inc.
keithley@apple.com
Anything not forbidden is mandatory.
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: kentm@aix.rpi.edu (Michael V. Kent)
Subject: Re: what use is Freedom?
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 01:02:10 GMT

In article <1at9c7INNs1a@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> bafta@cats.ucsc.edu (Shari L Brooks) writes:
>In article <p#szd-n@rpi.edu> kentm@aix.rpi.edu (Michael V. Kent) writes:
>
>>From the very first flight on, Freedom will have _twice_ the power output
>>of Skylab.  By PMC, that will grow to six times.  Freedom also offers much
>>expandability beyond PMC, and more power sources will be added before EMCC.
>
>What does EMCC stand for?

Sorry, I should have spelled out my acronyms.  Here they are:

MTC:  Man-Tended Configuration
PMC:  Permanently Manned Configuration
EMCC: Eight-Man Crew Configuration

EMCC is the unfunded next step after PMC.  Current plans are to add a second
US Lab module and a second hab module (this one will have the crew "quarters"
deleted when the hab module shrunk) and more power.  Basically, this is to
get back most of the capability lost during the frequent redesigns throughout
the years.

NASA is Congressionally mandated to not spend significant amounts of money
on this, but it is looking at the configutation so as to not eliminate the
hooks and scars to attach these items onto.  It will almost certainly be
funded on a pay-as-you-go basis with almost every hardware flight requiring
Congressional approval (I should add that last sentence is my opinion only).

My major point is that PMC is not "assembly complete."

Mike

-- 
Michael Kent                                   kentm@rpi.edu
McDonnell Douglas                              Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
All facts in this post are based on publicly available information.  All
opinions expressed are solely those of the author.    Apple II Forever !!
Xref: sparky sci.space:13827 news.answers:3194
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,talk.politics.space,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Re: Wealth in Space (Was Re: Clinton and Space Funding)
Date: 1 Oct 92 12:01:18 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <TOM.92Sep30113234@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com> tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley) writes:
>See, I have proven it is possible. Now there are just a few little piddling
>details to work out :-).
 
Well golly Mr. Wizard, what's the hold up? :-)

>+==== Censorship is the only form of Obscenity ======================+
>|     (Wait, I forgot government tobacco subsidies...)               |
>+====================================================================+

You knew I wasn't going to let this pass. Tobacco, the one crop grown
by US farmers where the producers receive NOT ONE DIME from the 
government. Unlike soybeans, peanuts, cotton, sugar, corn, milk, etc,
the government does not pay tobacco producers in order to bolster
income. Instead, in the only farm program that works, the government
issues permits to producers restricting the amount of crop they can
market, thus assuring a good price *without* subsidy. 

Gary
From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Controversy over V-2 anniversary
Date: 29 Sep 92 15:57:34 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory

Remember a week or so ago, when somebody on this newsgroup reminded us
that the first flight of a V-2 (A-4, if you prefer) into "space" had
taken place fifty years ago, in October 1942?

Monday I heard a news account that ceremonies to celebrate this
event have become a matter of controversy.  A local FM station carries
the BBC World Service, and they reported that the German government
had withdrawn its support, or approval, or something, from a
commemoration sponsored by private aerospace groups.  Ceremonies were
supposed to take place at Peenemuende, the military base on the Baltic
where the A-4 was developed.  

Has anybody heard more detail?  Has the story appeared in print?

Apparently the fact that the A-4 was a nasty weapon that killed lots
of people overshadows the importance of the anniversary.  

In this country, the Confederate Air Force is allowed to tell us what
a great plane the B-17 was without visible interference...


Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | Here Lies Bill Higgins:
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | He Never Ever Learned 
Bitnet:           HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | To Play Guitar So Well
Internet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | But He Could Read and Write
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  | Just Like Ringing A Bell
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: wb9omc@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Von Braun -- Hero, Villain, or Both?
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date:  5 Oct 92 17:58:13 GMT

MSKALA@ESRIN.BITNET (Mike M. Skala) writes:


>citing from my memory ACCs memory of a WvB comment:
>"No, I didn't know what went on in the concentration camps.
> But I suspected and I could have used my position to find out.
> I didn't do this, and I'm deeply ashamed."

	Of course, there are also those who would say that the firestorms
created by the incendiary bombings of Cologne and Dresden were totally
unnecessary and were in themselves, criminal acts...and that they weren't
justified simply because we won the war, either.

	Had Von Braun attempted to use any influence to noodle with the
concentration camps in any way, he'd have quite possibly ended up there
himself.  Herr Schicklegruber was notorious for having only a limited
amount of patience with folks who disagreed with what he was doing.  :-)

	Or as the Commander of the German troops at the Remagen Bridge
might have said just before he was shot for failing his assignment -
"well, scheisse - we tried....".   :-)

Duane

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Wealth in Space
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester
Distribution: sci
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 18:33:27 GMT

In article <BvJ5Ks.J4x.1@cs.cmu.edu> pgf@srl01.cacs.usl.edu ("Phil G. Fraering") writes:

> I was thinking, though, along with others, that you could quite easily
> make the mass spectrometer really large as in "space is big"
> large.
>
> Anyone have any comments on large flimsy structure mass spectrometers?


The problem there is that you then need to make the *magnets* really
large.  There is no gain in doing so; the mass of the magnets will be
proportional to the volume x the square of the magnetic field.  Also,
you still need to vaporize and ionize the material.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu
From: kfree@arghouse.UUCP (Kenneth Freeman)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: PUTTING VENUS IN AN ORBIT SIMILAR TO THE ORBIT OF THE EA
Keywords: Mars ocean water world terraforming
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 21:22:35 PDT
Distribution: na
Organization: The Listening Post

fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:

> In article <1992Sep25.172850.6058@pixel.kodak.com> dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (
> >Mars is colder but lost most everything because of its size. 
> 
> This isn't the usual explanation for Mars' thin atmosphere: The theoretical
> loss rates for gases escaping the atmosphere are too slow to account
> for the planet's atmosphere.
> 
> I think the accepted theory starts with the loss of carbon dioxide to 
> geological processes: This gas disolves into oceans (Mars of 3.7 billion
> years ago had such oceans), and reacts with disolved calcium to form
> calcium carbonate rock. On Earth, there is a balance, because plate 
> techtonics result in the subduction of ocean floors, the melting of 
> calcium carbonate rock and the subsequent venting of carbon dioxide out
> of volcanoes. On Mars, which lacking such an active geology, the carbon
> dioxide is simply removed from the atmosphere and sits on the bottom of
> the oceans (while they last). By pulling a major greenhouse gas out
> of the atmosphere causes a major drop in temperature and other 
> atmospheric components (such as water and more carbon dioxide during the
> winter) freeze out. The result is an trend a colder and thiner 
> atmosphere. (Of course, this mechanism works only as long as there are
> oceans. After a point, the atmosphere is too cold and thin to sustain
> them, and other loss mechanisms must have taken over.)
> 
>                                                      Frank Crary
>                                                      CU Boulder
> 

 
Just as a thought experiment, how much water would have to
be poured onto Mars for the resultant oceans (or ocean, if
that's what it takes) for the water to stay there by virtue
of its own mass?

---
If people did not sometimes do silly things,
nothing intelligent would ever get done. -Wittgenstein
kfree@arghouse.UUCP or ...!crash!nusdecs!arghouse!kfree
From: PHARABOD@FRCPN11.IN2P3.FR
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: What is this ?
Date: 30 Sep 92 13:59:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BvE9n3.E8G.1
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

Henry Spencer writes (29 Sep 92 19:38:03 GMT):

>In article <BvCEtC.4F4.1@cs.cmu.edu> PHARABOD@FRCPN11.IN2P3.FR writes:
>>Have the U.S. some kind of RPV with such performances ?
>
>If so, it is secret, so why bother asking?

Because here in Western Europe, we don't like behavior in the KGB style,
especially when it's over our heads... Well, maybe it was the Russians ?
"If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and craps like a duck, I
call it a duck."

J. Pharabod
From: dong@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Don M. Gibson)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Clinton and Space Funding
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:26:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: oakhill.1992Oct2.152609.18636
Reply-To: dong@oakhill.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector

Could someone please send me copy a Clinton's Space Position.
Thanx--DonG
From: paul.britton@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (Paul Britton)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Military Sat photos, info required
Date: 30 Sep 92 03:26:28 GMT
Organization: Fidonet. Gate admin is fido@socs.uts.edu.au

Original to: Steve_Grant@kcbbs.gen.nz
Steve 

I have several books that have line drawings of quite alot of US Spy sats,
what particular Sats are you interested in, as I do have some photos. Do you
have any info on Sats you wish to swap as I am also very interested in this
subject .


Paul Britton

Voice:- 612-9056596
Fax  :- 612-9070408

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Vulcan's World -Sydney Australia 02 635-1204 (3:713/635)
From: higgins@fnalc.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Good Bio of WvB (was Re: Von Braun -- Hero, Villain, or Both? )
Date: 5 Oct 92 09:29:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: fnalc.1992Oct5.152918.1
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalc.fnal.gov

In article <1992Oct5.192844.6175@coe.montana.edu>, billh@orion.oscs.montana.edu () writes:
> 
> 	Von Braun is clearly an interesting and key historical
> figure in space flight. Has a decent biography ever been
> written? (in English?)

No.  Not published, anyway.  Good project for some space historian.

> ***************************************************************
> **  Bill Hiscock	billh@orion.oscs.montana.edu         **
> **  Director                         (406)-994-4223          **
> **  Montana Space Grant Consortium   (406)-994-4452 (FAX)    **

Jeepers, now Montana's at it, too.  I wonder if they're cooperating with the 
Confederate Space Agency?

     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
 /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
 |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \       /     Bitnet:     HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
   -   -       Internet:  HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Mars Observer orbit
Date: 3 Oct 92 17:00:16 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Oct02.002723.21094@news.mentorg.com> drickel@sjc.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel) writes:
>I was wondering about that.  Hohmann transfer orbit to Mars is about nine
>months (the CRC says between 230 and 280 days).  Mars Observer is taking
>11 months, which seems to imply that it is going a bit outside of Mars orbit
>and catching it on the inward leg.  What is the reason for this?  (i was
>playing around a bit with xephem, and it looks like there should have been
>an orbit available that was much closer to a Hohmann orbit)

The Hohmann orbits assume the origin and destination are circular orbits in
the same plane. If you account for the slight difference between Earth's
and Mars' orbital planes, you get minimum energy transfer orbits that are
slightly different from a ideal hohmann. Both have an apihelion slightly
beyond Mars' orbit. One stops at Mars before reaching apihelion and
one goes all the way out and comes back to reach Mars. Mars Observer
is apparently on the later sort of orbit.

                                                      Frank Crary
                                                      CU Boulder
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: mike@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Smithwick)
Subject: Mars Observer orbit
Organization: SF-Bay Public-Access Unix
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 21:23:27 GMT

[]

Does anyone have the orbital elements for the Mars Observer? I'd
like to plug them into my software so I can follow it on its
journey.

mike


-- 
"There is no problem too big that can't be solved with high explosives"-Rush

Mike Smithwick - ames!zorch!mike

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: se_taylo@rcvie.co.at (Ian Taylor)
Subject: Re: Toutatis impact in 2000 AD? (was Re: Help !)
Organization: Alcatel Austria - Elin Research Center, Vienna
Distribution: sci
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:12:42 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.160708.26767@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> martin@space.ualberta.ca (Martin Connors) writes:
[.../dev/nulled]
>Of course Toutatis  
>is NOT coming in randomly, and even for its chaotic orbit we know the  
>position well enough to say that over the next few encounters it will not  
>be hitting and after that its encounters are not so close.

As you know Toutatis's position _well enough_, perhaps you or someone else can
answer Bill Higgins previous question about what the error is in its predicted
position at Earth "encounter"?

An interested observer :-)

+-- I -------- fax +43 1 391452 --------------------- voice +43 1 391621 169 --+
| T a y l o r  Alcatel-ELIN Research, 1-7 Ruthnergasse, Vienna A-1210 Austria  |
+-- n ---- ian@rcvie.co.at --- PSI%023226191002::SE_TAYLOR --- 20731::ian -----+

         better, smaller, faster, cheaper, smarter, stronger ... never?
From: jay@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Blue Danube
Date: 4 Oct 92 00:35:50 GMT
Organization: The Software Distillery
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00 beta rel2

In article <rabjab.191.0@golem.ucsd.edu>, Jeff Bytof writes:

> >For some strange reason, I have visions of sleek Pan Am
> >(RIP) 'liners slowly spinning across a starfield.  Have I gone nuts, or should
> >I put up my 2001 tape for a while?
> I'd say for about 100 years.

If its 100 years, its forever.  We'll run out of enough energy to put the
first SPS up if we don't start much sooner than that.

--

 |_o_o|\\
 |. o.| || The           Jay Denebeim
 | .  | ||  Software
 | o  | ||   Distillery
 |    |//        Address: UUCP:     duke!wolves!deepthot!jay
 ======                   Internet: jay@deepthot.cary.nc.us
                 BBS:(919)-460-7430      VOICE:(919)-460-6934
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: drickel@sjc.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Mars Observer orbit
Originator: drickel@bounce
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1992 00:27:23 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


In article <BvGFBz.GwA@well.sf.ca.us>, collins@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Collins) writes:
|> since the transfer orbit is close to a Hoama Homman elipse.

I was wondering about that.  Hohmann transfer orbit to Mars is about nine
months (the CRC says between 230 and 280 days).  Mars Observer is taking
11 months, which seems to imply that it is going a bit outside of Mars orbit
and catching it on the inward leg.  What is the reason for this?  (i was
playing around a bit with xephem, and it looks like there should have been
an orbit available that was much closer to a Hohmann orbit)

Anyway, orbit elements that are compatible with xephem would be fun.


david rickel
drickel@sjc.mentorg.com
From: st17a@judy.uh.edu (University Space Society)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Von Braun -- Hero, Villain, or Both?
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:37:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct5.192844.6175@coe.montana.edu>, billh@orion.oscs.montana.edu () writes...
> 
>	Von Braun is clearly an interesting and key historical
>figure in space flight. Has a decent biography ever been
>written? (in English?)
> 
>***************************************************************
>**  Bill Hiscock	billh@orion.oscs.montana.edu         **
>**  Director                         (406)-994-4223          **                     **
>**  Montana Space Grant Consortium   (406)-994-4452 (FAX)    **                        **
>**  AJM Johnson Hall                                         **
>**  Montana State University	                             **
>**  Bozeman, MT 59717 U.S.A.			             **
>***************************************************************
> 

Yes it has. I do not know if it has been published or not yet however.  It was
written by Dr. Ernst Sthulinger who was one of Dr. Von Braun's deptutys. I
apologize if I am so close to flame on, regarding this subject, but unless and
until some evidence shows up shut your yaps about Von Braun and war crimes 
cause you are talking in thin air.

Every single conference on space development that I have been to in the last
four years (and I have been to a lot of them) ends up with a cry in your beer
session about how we need another Von Braun. In his life and his work he
was always dedicated to seeing mankind freed from this little dirt ball we live
on. I happen to know a number of the surviving Germans and each and every one
of them have worked far beyond their retirements to continue to work for our
planet having a space faring civilization.  This committment to the good
of mankind simply is impossible for those of a mind set that led to the deaths
in the concentration camps.

Until we gett someone in this business who is as committed as Von Braun was
we will continue to sit on this dirt ball and cry in our beers and verbally
stroke ourselves about our wonderful ideas about what NASA and Co or Private
Enterprise and Co should do for space. If you really want to make a difference
in the exploration and development of space make a lifetime commitment to it
and work to build the corporation or work your way through government in such a
way as to make it happen. This is what Von Braun and his team did. Von Braun
and co could have left NASA or the Army many times and could have made a 
great deal of mony building ICBM's for the Air Force contractors but they did
not. They worked and hijacked and shuffled funds to put a capability in place
that allowed Kennedy to make his famous speech. It is funny that he made his
speech only after the first successful firing of the F-1 engine, an engine
program started in 1959. How many of you out there have that kind of character
or commitment? 

We went to the moon on the back of Von Braun's dream. 

This is my last word on this subject

Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville
Newsgroups: sci.space