HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ratner@owlnet.rice.edu (Logan Joshua Ratner)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
Subject: Re: n-Dimensional Cyber Space
Date: 9 Sep 1992 17:24:26 GMT
Organization: Rice University

In article <8SEP199213134749@dstl86.gsfc.nasa.gov> olson@dstl86.gsfc.nasa.gov (Paul Olson) writes:
>
>It also ties back to something I saw or read somewhere.  Imagine a stack of
>planes (i.e. 2D spaces) on which reside 2D creatures.  Being constrained to
>their planes, the creatures are only able to move and interact in 2D.  But now
>comes a creature that lives in the 3D space surrounding the stack of planes. 
>That creature can take a 2D creature and move it to another plane.  In other
>words, to change from a universe of a given dimensional order, it requires a
>move through the next highest dimension.  To the creature, it would appear that
>it just popped from one universe to another.


The source of this is one of two places. (Really one original plus a lengthy
allusion.)

The original for this is Edwin Abbot's book Flatland.  It is alternately found
in philosophy, theology, or science fiction if you can believe that.
Warning, the actual text is an UNUSUAL Christ allogory that bordered on being
labeled heresy at the time of its writing.  Abbot was a Catholic Monk with a
bent for geometry (no pun intended.)  The tricky bit is that the book basically
implies that Christ might have been a being from a higher plane 'descended' to
3-d earth to save humanity.  Questions exist(ed) as to whether it was pure allogory
or if he was believed the idea literaly.

The second source is Carl Sagen in Casmos (both the book and the series.) He refers
to "Abbot's Flatland" but uses the concepts in a very literal since to describe in
laymen's terms some of the concepts of n-space.  No Christ allogory in this case.

Anyone interested in "visualizing" 4-space really should check these references.
A particularly interesting concept is that via 4-space your orientation could lie
in a 3-space tangential to "real-space."  Forget layered planes, how about intersecting
planes.  Imaging seeing throug walls, but everything looking flat (2-D).

							ratner
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: foxd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (daniel fox)
Subject: Re: n-Dimensional Cyber Space
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:41:37 GMT


I seem to remember reading about a method of viewing 4D objects that worked 
like this:

Since a 3D effect is caused by viewing a page printed with red and blue lines
through some glasses that have one red and one blue lense.  Then a 4D effect
is caused by viewing a 3D wire sculpture made up of red and blue wires though
the same glasses.

                                         Daniel B. Fox
                                         KF9ET
.standard disclaimer
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: MHANNINEN@finabo.abo.fi (Mika H{nninen Inf)
Subject: Re: n-Dimensional Cyber Space
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 10:52:25 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Sep7.084619.23317@src.umd.edu> tedwards@src.umd.edu writes:

> In article <1992Sep5.214552.19306@ncsu.edu> naoursla@eos.ncsu.edu (NORMAN ALAN OURSLAND) writes:
> >   In article <3525@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert  
> >   J. Hall) writes:
> >   >etc. I mean an actual 4th, 5th, 6th,... and so on, spacial dimensions.)
> 
> >As I understand it, our mind actually makes a sort of three dimensional image
> >when it pictures something. There is actually a path of active neurons (or 
> >something to that effect) in the shape of the object being imagined. That is why
> >it is so difficult to picture 4-D objects. Our minds cannot physically "see"
> >them. This would lead me to beleive that a 4-D spacial cyberspace would be
> >impossible.
> 
> People are definately built for dealing with 3D space.  However, I've
> heard some annectdotal evidence from net.people working with 4 and 5
> D object manipulation programs (where they would see a 3D "shadow"
> of the higher dimension object), that you can learn to maniuplate
> 4D objects, but it takes alot of practice.
> 
> -Thomas
But the screen is still 3-D, so what do they really learn??
-Mika
From: megazone@rivdell.sccsi.com (Megazoner)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
Subject: Re: n-Dimensional Cyber Space
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 02:48:42 CDT
Organization: Rivendell BBS / Hou, TX. / +1 713 941 2236

hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall) writes:

> Here's something I've been a bit curious about since first reading about the
> concept of 'Cyberspace' some years ago. Since the human brain can (in theory)
> be linked directly to the network, will the mind be capable of dealing with
> more than three computer generated spacial dimensions? (I'm not talking about
> converting the fourth and higher spacial dimensions into some other form, suc
> as color, texture, sound, size, etc. I mean an actual 4th, 5th, 6th, ... , an
> so on, spacial dimensions.)
> 
> Since we are raised in a 3-spacial dimension universe, I would think that we
> would have a great deal of difficulty dealing with 4+ dimensions, whereas a
> child raised completely in a 4+ dimensional Cyberspace may fit right in.   
> 
> Does anyone have any insights on this?
> 
> -- 
>  Bob Hall,                 | "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
>  Workstation Peripheral    | Then give up. No use being a damn fool about it.
>  Boeing Computer Services  |                                     -Groucho Mar


 Good grief! Why would anyone want to experience more than four 
dimensions? You couldn't see them anyway...what frame of reference would 
you use? We live in four dimensions (4 being the experience of time) but 
adding a fifth would only be useful in some strange fractal apllication, 
and we could only concieve of it in a generated 4space anyway.

 Anyone that designs cyberspace will make it 4-D...any more is a waste of 
processing time. Cspace will include ALL modes of human sensing, not just 
sight or sound. You could get to 'taste' data. (RE: _'I' said the Fly_ by 
Micheal Shea, OMNI Sci-Fi Collection) Cspace would allow one to 
experience all sorts of things...in 4 dimensions.

   MI

--
megazone@rivdell.sccsi.com (Megazoner)
Rivendell BBS -*- Houston, TX -*- +1(713)941-2236
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: naoursla@eos.ncsu.edu (NORMAN ALAN OURSLAND)
Subject: Re: n-Dimensional Cyber Space
Originator: naoursla@c00060-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: naoursla@eos.ncsu.edu (NORMAN ALAN OURSLAND)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 21:45:52 GMT


   In article <3525@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert  
   J. Hall) writes:
	.
	.
   >etc. I mean an actual 4th, 5th, 6th,... and so on, spacial dimensions.)
   > 
   > Does anyone have any insights on this?

As I understand it, our mind actually makes a sort of three dimensional image
when it pictures something. There is actually a path of active neurons (or 
something to that effect) in the shape of the object being imagined. That is why
it is so difficult to picture 4-D objects. Our minds cannot physically "see"
them. This would lead me to beleive that a 4-D spacial cyberspace would be
impossible. The above information is based on experiments where researchers 
gave primates a "dye" that would show up on a type of scanner (they use the
same stuff on people for certain medical tests. I understand it's like drinking
chalk). They then showed them pictures with black and white patterns on them.
Imaging of the blood flow in their brains matched the patterns they show the
subjects.

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: pacoid@wixer.cactus.org (Paco Xander Nathan)
Subject: Re: Tactile Feedback
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 17:31:22 GMT


re: little things that vibrate - for tactile

there was a firm called TiNi that had "memory metal" feedback systems..
boards I saw wired into a Mac for touch feedback on a Hypercard screen as one
moved a mouse over an image..  Think there were in Berkeley - not certain.
TiNi - titanium/nickel alloy..  Anybody got leads on this?
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: tedwards@src.umd.edu (Thomas Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: n-Dimensional Cyber Space
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:45:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.105225.1150@abo.fi> MHANNINEN@finabo.abo.fi (Mika H{nninen Inf) writes:
>But the screen is still 3-D, so what do they really learn??
>-Mika
>

They learn how to maniuplate 4D objects, in a manner such as that they
can bring up any 3D shadow of the object that they desire.  

Neat theoretical problem...probably not much application :)

-Thomas


Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: tedwards@src.umd.edu (Thomas Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: n-Dimensional Cyber Space
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 08:46:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep5.214552.19306@ncsu.edu> naoursla@eos.ncsu.edu (NORMAN ALAN OURSLAND) writes:
>   In article <3525@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert  
>   J. Hall) writes:
>   >etc. I mean an actual 4th, 5th, 6th,... and so on, spacial dimensions.)

>As I understand it, our mind actually makes a sort of three dimensional image
>when it pictures something. There is actually a path of active neurons (or 
>something to that effect) in the shape of the object being imagined. That is why
>it is so difficult to picture 4-D objects. Our minds cannot physically "see"
>them. This would lead me to beleive that a 4-D spacial cyberspace would be
>impossible.

People are definately built for dealing with 3D space.  However, I've
heard some annectdotal evidence from net.people working with 4 and 5
D object manipulation programs (where they would see a 3D "shadow"
of the higher dimension object), that you can learn to maniuplate
4D objects, but it takes alot of practice.

-Thomas


Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: pst@cisco.com (Paul Traina)
Subject: Re: n-Dimensional Cyber Space
Organization: cisco Systems, Menlo Park, California, USA
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 15:23:46 GMT


...which may go against the philosophy of some people who think that
the technology should adapt to the "driver,"  not the other way about.

(This isn't to say that nD (n>4) object manipulation has no worth,
 it's just less applicable to general problems.)

-- 
"If life were fair, the acquisition of a large bosom or a massive inheritance
 would have no bearing on your ability to attract the opposite sex, and Dan
 Quayle would be making a living asking runny-nosed children, `Do you want
 fries with that?'"     -- John Cleese, "Corporate Computing" magazine
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: edd974y@mings2.cc.monash.edu.au (N.P. Green)
Subject: Re: Biochips? Yeeeaaah riiight...
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 04:44:38 GMT

richard@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz (Richard Parry) writes:


>In article <30AUG199218471820@zeus.tamu.edu> jrs2556@zeus.tamu.edu writes:

> > 
> >      I've heard about " biochips " -- computer chips that use actual
> > living cells and use them to store ridiculously large quantities of
> > memory.  I've also looked for material on them, and can't find any
> > information ANYWHERE !  
> >      Anybody out there know where I could find such info ? :)

>Hm.  You can find info on such things in some of the best science
>fiction around... ;)  I think someone's been pulling your chain...

>I'm sure that they're doing experiments and popadoms and shit with
>think it would be so hard to find info on?  It'd be the latest
>breakthrough! 8-)

>Similar to my flatmate who said recently (after seeing Back to the

There was an story on Beyond 2000 (Australia) about some American
Scientists who were getting some algae, which lived in dried out salt
lakes , and they were putting a film of them on a glass slide, now
what they do is change color on exposure to light, so they could shine 
a laser on them and they would change color, they could also change it 
back again, so there you go, binary storage.

Hope this helps, Nathan Green.
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: gary@nexnix.demon.co.uk (Gary Howland)
Subject: Please allow me to introduce myself-- 
Distribution: world
Organization: nexnix
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:44:34 +0000

>STUFF with that viscious edge of no rules, morality sucks, and life is 
                 ^^^^^^^^

as in treacle?
From: markp@noncomf.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Mark A. Pitcher)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
Subject: Re: Monomyl wire : Is it possible?
Keywords: physics, medecine, chemistry, EE, nanotechnolgy
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 11:16:05 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Dark Park

shaun@octel.com (Attacking Deep Structure) writes:

> - A flexible superconducting strand might make a good artificial nerve and
>   would make a GREAT bus on a PC board... or even on-die
> - Great light refractor toys for physics class
> - Nanotech items with monofilament "muscles"
> - Cheap high-quality lathes and precision industrial tooling machines that
>   would allow six-sigma quality with the right control systems and
>   application of statistical process control
> - Scalpels.. unless surgeons rely on pressure feedback while cutting
> - Subatomic particle physics research
> - Cheese slicers where the wire doesn't break after cutting two slices of
>   cheese (keep away from children.)
> - Lawnmowers and weed-whacker type devices
> - Chisels of joy for people who make statues and gravestones
> - Some of the best burglary items ever seen
> - Very precise measuring devices that would make Heisenberg spin in his
>   grave, if you could find it, and if you were pretty sure he was dead.

 - Immense prank opportunities:
	- tie a string across a highway and watch cars get cut
	  in half.
	- tie a long string to a balloon, and release over an airport.

 
> Larry Niven used monomolecular technology at least a couple of times--those
> "Guaranteed never to fail" ship hulls, and the stuff that held the black
> squares together in _Ringworld_.

	Harry Harrison used a rope one-molecule-thick to support
a person in a Stainless Steel Rat book (I forget which one). I
_think_ it was coated with a poison in case someone walked into it.


------------------------------------------------------------------darkPARK BBS
markp@noncomf.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Mark A. Pitcher)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: cabal@sabrina.dei.unipd.it (Gianluca Donato 342139/IF)
Subject:  Re: 4th dimension
Organization: D.E.I. Universita' di Padova, Italia
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:17:46 GMT


I've just finished reading all the articles in this new (at least for me) group.
I would like to add something to the discussion about 4 or more dimensions. 
First of all is necessary to distinguish between time as a fourth
dimension and another physical dimension (to be added to the canonical x,y,z),
the question is whether is possible to represent THESE physical dimensions not
some kind of representation varying with time (e.g. video animations).
Research in this direction has already been done, I'm particularly referring to 
two programs I found on the net: one is called Hyperspace, runs on Mac and 
shows (or at least that's what the author says) up to 9 3d animated projections 
of a rotating hypersolid (cube,pyramid...). I think the author was someone at a
New Zealand university.
The other one is a project by someone working at something like "National Center
for Geometry" (sorry for my vagueness but I can't remember more details now; if 
anyone is interested I have both brograms -with their documentation- at home),
this program , written in the Mathematica environment, "cuts" hypersolids the 
user can define, with a plane, thus producing many 3d "slices" that can be
animated (at least with Mathematica for the Mac) to help the user "see", or 
better "understand", the 4 dimensional object.
Finally I'd like to say that hardly any scientific research is useless or not
"practical" enough, many examples from the past could confirm this.

					Gianluca Donato

cabal@sabrina.dei.unipd.it
I T A L Y
From: roy%cybrspc@cs.umn.edu (Roy M. Silvernail)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
Subject: Re: Monomyl wire : Is it possible?
Keywords: physics, medecine, chemistry, EE, nanotechnolgy
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 23:16:18 CDT
Organization: Villa CyberSpace, Minneapolis, MN

markp@noncomf.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Mark A. Pitcher) writes:

> 	Harry Harrison used a rope one-molecule-thick to support
> a person in a Stainless Steel Rat book (I forget which one). I
> _think_ it was coated with a poison in case someone walked into it.

And don't forget Arthur C. Clarke's use of a monomyl in _The Fountains
of Paradise_.  The protagonist (whose name I've forgotten) had this
spiffy little assembly in his belt buckle, with a winch and a roll of
diamond monomolecular wire.  He liked to suspend himself from mountain
ledges and confuse the shit out of casual observers.  Later, he uses it
like a super-hacksaw, too.  Unfortunately, he dies in the process (from
a heart attack, not from the monomyl), and uses no other keen tricks.
--
Roy M. Silvernail --  roy%cybrspc@cs.umn.edu - OR-  cybrspc!roy@cs.umn.edu
  perl -e '$x = 1/20; print "Just my \$$x! (adjusted for inflation)\n"'
        "What do you mean, you've never been to Alpha Centauri?"
                                               -- Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: jon@afs.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Subject: Re: Monomyl wire : Is it possible?
Distribution: USA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:49:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.094806.784@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_rasmusseam@ccsvax.sfasu.edu  
writes:
>About that mono-filament wire... Yes, its possible.  Well, will be anyway...
>Think of it this way... WAY back in feudal Japan they had swords that were
>made of folded carbon.  They folded those swords as many as 400 times.  That
>gave you an edge on the sword that was approximately 1 atom thick.  Pretty
>close to monomolecular?  I think so.  As to it actually being in the form
>of a wire?  Well, not for a bit yet, but as a Chem Major, I can tell you that
>there is stuff out there that will eventually yield that kind of strength, but
>as you said, the stuff in the lit. is a) a ways off or b) A little over-rated.
>Now if you are creating some edged weapon instead of a mono-wire from which
>to dangle worry free from... It could be done, but the technology or rather
>the methods that were used in fuedal Japan have been lost/guarded and aren't
>currently/readily available.  Ie, about the best we can do now-adays is 200
>times.  That gives you an edge thats ~1.5-2.5 atoms thick... All of this is
>coming from memory, but I can go dig the lit if necessary...  Btw, I  
personally
>have a carbon-steel dagger that is folded 45 times and well, it goes through
>a stack of 5 quarters without dulling.  Pretty neat huh?
>
>Pasta...
>Adam "Quiverclaw" Rasmussen

There's a difference between a sword and a strand of molecules. Namely, the  
edge of the sword's got an awful lot of metal behind it to hold it ridgid. If  
you only take that 1-2 atom edge by itself, what you've got is a very fragile  
wire. It might cut, but it would break at the same time, so wouldn't be worth  
much.

--
Jonathan Hendry  Anderson Financial Systems
jon@afs.com  (Nextmail Welcome!) or hendryjw@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: chubbard@beta.tricity.wsu.edu (Charles William Hubbard)
Subject: Re: Biochips? Yeeeaaah riiight...
Organization: Washington State University Tri-Cities, Richland
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 02:33:28 GMT

>There was an story on Beyond 2000 (Australia) about some American
>Scientists who were getting some algae, which lived in dried out salt
>lakes , and they were putting a film of them on a glass slide, now
>what they do is change color on exposure to light, so they could shine 
>a laser on them and they would change color, they could also change it 
>back again, so there you go, binary storage.

Yea, I remember reading an article on the very same thing in Discover
magazine a few months ago.  As I recall the important part of the storage
media was this dye they extracted from the algae.  It was still just a
chemical thing.  I mean they weren't using the actual algae (right?) and
what they were using certainly wasn't alive.  They were just using a
molecule that happened to be convienently produced by a living organism. 
Doesn't really seem like real "bio-chip" stuff to me though.

I also saw an article in Discover a few months back that delt with the
work of some Japanese researcher who was trying to grow nerve cells
directly on a suitably doped silicon substrate.  What he was able to show
was that by applying electric fields to channels etched on the silicon he
could inhibit cell growth in the channels.  That meant he could create
cell structures in whatever shape pleased him.  The devices were still
very primative like not -even- comparing to non-bio devices.  It seems to
me they goal was to develop a device that would allow better interfacing
between electrical/mechanical circuits and damaged muscle tissue.  The
goal was to help people who had been paralyzed?  Practical devices are
still several years away.

C.
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: shaun@octel.com (Attacking Deep Structure)
Subject: Re: Tactile Feedback
Organization: Octel Communications Inc., Milpitas Ca.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 04:03:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.173122.1586@wixer.cactus.org> pacoid@wixer.cactus.org (Paco Xander Nathan) writes:
>
>there was a firm called TiNi that had "memory metal" feedback systems..
>boards I saw wired into a Mac for touch feedback on a Hypercard screen as one
>moved a mouse over an image..  Think there were in Berkeley - not certain.
>TiNi - titanium/nickel alloy..  Anybody got leads on this?

You must be talking about Nitinol.  Below is a paragraph from Martin Gardner's
excellent book, _Science: Good, Bad and Bogus_ (Prometheus Books, Buffalo, New
York, 1989 at +1 716 837 2475.)  It comes from an essay titled "Geller, Gulls,
and Nitinol," in which Gardener debunks Eldon Byrd's paper, "Uri Geller's
Influence on the Metal Alloy Nitinol."

"... Nitinol is a curious alloy of nickel and titanium, developed many years
earlier by a navy metallurgist.  It has a 'memory.'  Under intense heat, you
can give a piece of Nitinol a certain shape.  When cold, you can alter its 
shape; but when it is heated again it goes back to its original form.  It has
been used for satellite antennas.  Nitinol wire can be coiled into a small
area.  Once the satellite is in orbit, heat causes the wire to expand to the
desired pattern.  The alloy has many other uses, both military and commercial."

It also states that, "The Edmund Scientific Company, which advertised then, as
now, in popular magazines, listed a "nitinol kit" for five dollars in its
catalogs for 1971, 1972, and 1973.  For an additional dollar you could get a
96-page _NASA Nitinol Book_ that went into details about the alloy's 
properties.  Samples of nitinol wire were also distributed free during those
years by the Naval Ordnance Laboratory at their lab exhibits to people who
toured the lab and in response to written requests."

As I understand it, the behavior that makes Nitinol interesting, its "memory" 
property, only occurs at temperatures higher than the human body can endure,
so I'm not sure how much luck you'll have implementing a tactile feedback
system with it.

If you're interested in Nitinol, I suggest contacting Edmund Scientific or
the Naval Ordnance Laboratory.  If you're interested in the phone number of
TiNi, have you tried information in Berkeley and 1 800 555 1212?

@Man
-- 
shaun@octel.com  ||  "Now is the time on Sprockets when we Lambada!"
              
Days of Our Lives: It softens heads while you do dishes!
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech