From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:37:09 GMT

dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
: 
: Actually, what I seem to notice is that almost every libertarian I know
: is a white heterosexual middle-to-upper class male.  Why is this, you may
: ask?  Because these people have never seen how terrible people can be
: to each other.  Since they have never experienced bias, they do not see it
: anywhere.

You haven't met too many libertarians then. I think you are jumping to a
lot of conclusions here - based on insufficient information. How are you
so informed about what others have experienced in the way of mistreatment
or bias? Why do you think that middle/upper class (whatever those are)
people are so braindead that they cannot read or experience or think for
themselves?

: >I am sorry, but I am not willing to accept that.

Nor am I.

: I find it hard to believe that an american business would pay women as much
: as men if they were not afraid of a lawsuit (even with the fear of a lawsuit,
: they pay them less).

This is a cultural thing - it is changing. More and more businesses are 
starting to pay, based on merit and performance, not on the persons sex
or race or longevity with the company. There is a long way to go, but the
process is happening, and it is not due to government mandate - no matter
how much you would like to believe that it is. It is due to the changing
perceptions of how people relate in the job market.

:                       I do not believe that all store-owners in the south
: would sell to afro-americans if they had any way to avoid it.  

And, why should they have to? Why should I be required to sell my goods,
which I own until you pay me for them, to you if I do not wish to do so?
There are others that will sell to you, if I do not - maybe I do not like
"white monkeys" in my store. Now, if no one will sell to you, then you
have a reason for complaint.

: The amount of hate that I see for being a gay man, in my day to day life,
: convinces me that given a choice, many many people would be biased against
: me.

Certainly. They have a right to be - whether this hatred is reasonable or not.
I think they are stupid to feel this way, but that is their choice. As long
as they do not threaten to harm you, then they are free to be as unreasonable
as they wish. You and I may not like it - but that is beside the point. What
gives either of us the right to tell others what they may or may not believe?

By the same token, you should have the right to be gay, and be as public
about it as you wish, without threat of injury. As long as you do not attempt
to force your sexual preferences on anyone else, then you should have the
right to be free to practice them in any way that you wish.

: All the evidence that I have seen for libertarianism is history which has
: been rewritten to make libertarianism seem like the answer.

I tend to agree. I like much of the libertarian philosophy, but I do not
believe that it is the whole answer. However, we certainly are overly burdened
with  too many "thou shalt nots" under the present system.

: In an ideal world, libertarianism might work (just like communism might
: work).  However, given the current situation with haves and have-nots, 
: libertarianism would give white heterosexual males the freedom to return
: to the exploitive days of the past.

Possibly. It definitely could not be put in all at once. That doesn't mean
that such would be impossible over a period of a couple of generations. 

: As a philosophy, libertarianism is perfect.  However, if you think that
: the general population would behave in a rational manner, you have had your
: eyes shut to human nature for your entire life.

The population does not begin to behave rationally. It they did, they would
get rid of all the current politicians, and get some representatives that
really cared for their constituents, rather than just perpetuating their 
tenure in congress.

Bill

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