HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: susanc@rice.edu (susan chacko)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:20:59 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Rice University

I'm curious about the importance of the Babri-Masjid chaos  to 
Indian-Americans. I imagine that most Indian-Americans have
some extended family in India, and are somewhat anxious about
them, and are more familiar with Indian history and ethnic/religious
disputes than, say, Somalian history. But I also imagine that
many of you have friends with Irish, East European or South
American ancestry, so perhaps you also learn a lot about the
civil wars in those places. So do the incidents in Ayodhya 
mean more to you than those in any of the other trouble spots
of the world? 
My ethnic roots are in Kerala, but I've never lived there, and
I can't say I have a deep understanding of Kerala's politics
or problems. I've lived mostly in north India and I feel
more involved and concerned about problems there, even though
some of my relatives still live in Kerala. I'll refrain from
beating you over the head with the analogy to my previous
paragraph :-).

Susan.

--
----
susanc@helix.nih.gov
Bldg 2, Rm 316, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Md.
From: dpereira@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: who're you calling an american? :(
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:02:01 GMT
Followup-To: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Organization: Univ of Miami IR

Sounds like this is getting to be a battleground for desi and ABCD clowns from
AT&T and not IIT!
----

Get a life!




In article <1992Dec15.151655.14794@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>, alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
> In article <1992Dec14.173822.15035@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel) writes:
>> 
>> P.S. - From the sounds of it, this newsgroups sounds like it's for
>>        Indians born or raised in the US. I hope so. That other group,
>>        soc.culture.indian is a synonym for soc.culture.iit.grads.
>> 
> 
> No this group is for all people of asian-indian origin, not just those
> people of indian origin who were born or raised in US. Don't pump up
> your ego.
> 
>>        Now don't you IIT grads get riled up. :)
> 
> Don't unnecessarily provoke them :)
> 
> 
> BTW, that other group. soc.culture.indian, IMHO, should be renamed to
> soc.culture.indian.politics :)
> 
> Alok
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu (Mehul Sanghvi)
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Reply-To: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu
Organization: UMass-Lowell Comp. Sci. Dept.
	<1992Dec10.211317.12769@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>
	<1g8h3tINN3bk@menudo.uh.edu>
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:33:59 GMT


>>>>> "Purna" == Purna Murthy <mece1xg@menudo.uh.edu> writes:

Purna> NNTP-Posting-Host: menudo.uh.edu

Purna> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) wrote:
>In article <MSANGHVI.92Dec9210114@cs.ulowell.edu>, msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu (Mehul Sanghvi) writes:
Purna> [...bunch deleted...]
>> avoid religious warfare/riots/bloodshed ... be an atheist :)
>> 
>Yet another idiotic solution on your part. Solution to avoid religious
>bloodshed or riots is to try to understand each other's religion and faith
>by means of dialogue and sharing, not by becoming an atheists. Some of the
>worst rioteers or bloodhounds are atheists. You only have to look at 
>some of them in China and the old Soviet Union.

Purna> hmmm...i think that mehul had meant the comment as a joke; at least
Purna> i took it that way with that added "smiley" at the end.  anyway, he
Purna> can answer for himself on that point.

Well at least there are some people who do know how to interpret smileys...
thats all i have to say.


--
===============================================================================
Mehul "raja lakhan" Sanghvi        |  UMass-Lowell Dept. of Computer Science
Inet: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu      |  SnailNet: 754 Aiken St. #11
UUCP: ...!harvard!ulowell!msanghvi |            Lowell, MA 01850-1804
BITNET: msanghvi%cs.ulowell.edu@{cunyvm.cuny, mitvma.mit, talcott.harvard}.edu

The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach
their children to speak it.
		-- G. B. Shaw
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh)
Subject: Re: Diatribes of Mehul Sanghvi (Re:Hindu-Muslim violence)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:33:47 GMT

=====================
 dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
> The author of the above article takes refuge in Hindu-bashing, IMHO. While it
> is true that "Hindu fundamentalists" have started the bellicose patriotism, I
> think that there is much more deeper truth than the one presented by the
> author. To this end, Edward A.Gargan (NYT, correspondent in Delhi) has made
> the fundamental difference between the two warring factions pretty clear. 

 No, the fundamental differences have not been made clear by Ed in NYT. He does
 come up with interesting opinions and some facts. His conclusions need
 to be cross examined too.

>-------x------
>  Moreover, Muslims in India are governed
>  by laws of the Sharia while Hindus, Jews, Christians and other minorities
>  are subject to the Federal laws. The famous Shahbano case is a glaring
>  example. 
>--------x--------
>   about Muslims. " Many Hindus, probably a vast majority, think of themselves
>   as a second class citizens in their own land, somehow shunted aside as the
>   Muslims are granted as special privileges."

 Which special privileges are you/Ed talking about here?
 Is it a privilege to marry four times? or be able to divorce by saying 
 "Talaq...?" These aren't privileges in any sense to me. 
 Help us know the privileges you are hinting at.


>    There could be a good solution to this, and, in *all* civilized countries
>    including the one where Mr.Sanghvi lives and spreads his ignorant hate
>    for Hindus there is probably one uniform code.
>------x----------
>    Forgetting what had happened in the past, will it be physically possible
>    to implement one single code of laws to givern civic life ? If that is
>    really possible, then  the problems (communal) would subside considerably.
 
 First we need to discuss is "what is meant by uniform civil code/law?"
 "What are laws, and what are they needed for?"
 When you say - the solution is *one* single civil law for all Indians (or
 replace this by your favorite nation) - I would first seek to know: What
 do you mean by civil law? *One* single civil law comes latter. And then comes
 the issue whether "it is physically possible" to implement one code - whatever
 the term "physically possible" means.

 It is easy to rush into emotional rhetoric. 
 Please, let us know what you mean.

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: BRIANS@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: The problem with India (Mosque incident)
Organization: SYSTEMS & COMPUTING
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 18:04:42 PST

I am part of a group of academics headed for Delhi on
December 19 (we will arrive on the 24th, via Thailand).
what to do?  We are teachers of a World Civilizations course
going to familiarize ourselves first-hand with various
aspects of Indian culture, and have no particular religious
bias one way or another.  There are no Indians among us.
Paul Brians, Washington State University, Pullman, WA
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: pghol@ctp.com (Preeti Anissa Gholap)
Subject: Re: So why not just say "hi?"
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:10:23 GMT

>In article <BHATTACH.92Dec9133629@tazboy.jpl.nasa.gov> bhattach@tazboy.jpl.nasa.gov (Bidushi Bhattacharya) writes:
>>I was just walking back from lunch and passed yet another II/IA who avoided eye contact
>>and didn't say "hi."  Is it my imagination, or do some Indian people develop an intense
>>interest in the nearest sidewalk/wall when another Indian passes?


Hmm.  Depends on the situation.  If i was passing someone on the
sidewalk, i probably wouldnt say hello to a stranger, even if
she/he was of Indian origin (though I'd probably smile back
if i was greeted - and then get nervous wondering if they
had any "ulterior motives"  :)  ...but I'm more than happy to chat
with strangers in a "safer" environment such as across a store counter or
in a resteraunt.  The intention behind appearing not too 
friendly is not to snub, but more of a conditioned self-protective
response.

On a related note, It's been my experience that Indians
love to stop and stare at trouble, but won't help out!

Eg. I got mugged in my neighborhood (that has a lot of minorities and
its fair share of Indians)  on a sunny Sunday afternoon
a few months ago. A whole car load of Indians slowed 
down to rubberneck, but none helped or even looked like
they might call the cops, while a Mexican family with
little kids who were right behind the Indian car, pulled over--
the father chased the muggers off, dispatched the
kids to a phone booth to get the police while the mother
tried to patch me up!

Hopefully, the (non) response of these nice Indian folk was an
isolated case, but it seems to me that most Indians settled here
are really into their own community, religious and business events
and couldnt care less about other people/issues out there. 

Then again, my experience has probably skewed my perspective
a tiny bit :)

Preeti


Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: sguha@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Saumyen Guha)
Subject: Re: Sri Lankan Sculpture Exhibit @ Smithsonian
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:10:26 GMT

In article <susanc.724699066@keckiris> susanc@rice.edu (susan chacko) writes:
>hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira) writes:
>
>out was the change in their appearances through the ages. Babur
>and Humayun looked straight from the steppes with their Central
>Asian features, but by the time we got to Akbar and Jehangir the
>faces were more north Indian/Persian. The Sackler is good, but
>small. 

 Another interesting feature of the Mughal miniature painting
is the absence of the sense of perspective. What I mean is ,
background figures and the main figures were painted same size,
proportion and clarity. This is true even for Shahjahan period.
But, at the same time, in Europe, during renaissance, this 
was pretty well implemented which made the paintings much more
lively and realistic. 

 Quite interestingly, this same concept was used in the architectural
field, in Taz Mahal. Simplest example, upper two sections of the
minerets are longer than the lower ones , so that they look equal.  



ps: Does this thread belong to this newsgroup?
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Saumyen Guha
sguha@phoenix.princeton.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: test ()
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: The problem with India (Mosque incident)
Date: 11 Dec 1992 20:11:20 GMT
Organization: 
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pms240.pms.ford.com

Hello Mr. Tony,

You have confirmed very well that, youdon't know what youare talking!!
I wanted to reply to your message even yesterday, after your PANIC message
(Where is my article?) I am sure you are one another kid who wants to 
shout like those who destroyed the masjid in India. Your message was not
suggesting any solution  ... but infact you want another World War !! 

Do you have any knowledge of Indian history?

 Don't you remember the LA riots ...

 What is happening in Somalia ...

 What is happening in Germany ...

YOu should visit India and try to understand the variousculture/languages
there ! India and Indian Govt. respects all the religions in the World.
We do celebrate almost all the religious festival.

You can say what ever you want from here.

Shame on you !! 
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Date: 15 Dec 92 22:52:02 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Distribution: na
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <1992Dec15.191019.26210@cirrus.com>, venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar) writes:
|> From: venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar)

[Religious Fervor jazz deleted]

|> hmmmm. i suppose i agree with you there. in that, when people get caught up
|> in the fervor of their beliefs (or lack of), and try to force people to
|> follow them, something is seriously wrong. probably that is what (to some
|> extent) makes the pc movement (and liberalism) an anachronism <flame-bait>. 

Ok, you've got a catch. In what ways is 'liberalism' anachronistic?
Is anachronistic the word you want to use there?

Ron
From: raj@bigbird.bu.edu (Rajagopalan)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: So why not just say "hi?"
Date: 16 Dec 92 04:08:23 GMT
Reply-To: raj@cs.bu.edu
Organization: Boston University Computer Science Department

In article <susanc.724287520@keckiris>, susanc@rice.edu (susan chacko) writes:
>
>It isn't embarrasment or rudeness, you know. In India, people don't
>commonly greet people they don't know, and one doesn't even keep
>greeting the people one knows. 

	this is true, at least in bombay. some time back (actually a long time 
ago) i read an article in an indian newspaper/magazine on the street etiquette 
that the gentlefolk follow in india. this interest was provoked by a rather 
quaint incident that i witnessed in my neighbourhood. there was one mrs.___ who 
was well-known for being the friendly type. she always smiled whenever she met 
someone she knew on the street - which, unfortunately, was not always the right 
thing to do. one day her neighbour mr.___ was walking down the street and 
mrs.___  happened to be walking in the other direction and she broke in to her 
wide smile as usual. the gentleman was absolutely flabbergasted! he had a kind 
of silly grin on his face trying to make the best of a bad situation. 

so then the question: what is the appropriate kind of acknowledgement of the 
other's presence? i paraphrase from feeble memory:

".... the right thing to do seems to be to avoid eye contact with strangers 
walking on the street or if eye-contact does occur inadvertently to ignore it 
and hastily avert one's eyes and look intently at something else. what does one 
do when the person opposite is just an acquaintance (as mr.___ and mrs.___ were 
in the story above)? the proper thing to do is to establish eye-contact when the 
other person is at a distance of about 25 feet. eye-contact before this could be 
seen as a sign of unwelcome interest and familiarity (god forbid!). then one 
establishes and maintains eye-contact with the other person for about 15 feet 
and then when the person is less than 10 feet away one breaks the contact and 
looks elsewhere. not a word is spoken..."

the amazing thing about this article is that this seems to be quite accurate in 
describing the acknowledgement you would be expected (!) to make in the case of 
formal relationships like with a neighbour's wife or someone you saw at a local 
shindig (say). it is ok to smile at a friend but not always so at an 
acquaintance. then there is the problem of not knowing what to say by way of 
greeting. hi and good morning are deemed too westernized. "namaste" is not used 
that often so it would sound contrived. just nodding without a smile would be 
pompous. so what do you do? nothing!

i doubt very much if these rules apply in rural areas (but then, most II's in 
academia in the u.s. come from indian suburbia.) any idea where indians get 
their etiquette from?

raj
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: vagarwal@dis9002.shearson.com (Virendra Agarwal)
Subject: Re: Marriages are made in heaven (and in america, and in india).
Followup-To: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Reply-To: vagarwal@tardis.shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers
	<misdeva-081292155046@morse-college-kstar-node.net.yale.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:13:16 GMT


It is NOT what we like BUT what works best or keeps the marriage successful. 

The comment above does favour the chances of a successful marriage.

However, there are always exceptions to everything.

IA Female find it hard to adjust to II Male partner thinking of them as inferior
to them which no female likes.



--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Virendra Agarwal
vagarwal@shearson.com
212-464-2151
Lehman Brothers
388 Greenwich st.(9th Flr.)
NewYork, NY 10013
---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: shashi@aix3090b.uky.edu (Shashi Sathaye)
Subject: Re: Growing into one's Indianness
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Path: shashi
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:34:29 GMT
Distribution: usa

tenkasir@pyrite.SOM.CWRU.Edu (Ram Tenkasir) writes:


>Hi all,

>This is my first posting though I have been enjoying this group since
>it's inception. Good work guys and gals, keep it up. Though I was not
>born in this country ( came here at a relatively early age) I can 
>empathize with the experiences of all you native desis :)
>The question I want ponder is , 'Is there a progressive realization of
>one's Indianness as one grows older?".. From my personal experience (
>also have discussed this with other IAs and they seem to concur) the 
>initial years of growing up (junior and senior high) is one of 
>overidentification with being totally American--- A polarization of 
>who you are and a denial of much of what is Indian-- a period of
>making fun of the indian accents of those many uncles and aunties.. vhat,
>vhere, ad infinitum..... To one of coming to college, maturing,
>realizing you are indian to the eyes of the onlooker (whether you were
>born here of fresh of the boat) and start appreciating the value of
>your indianness. In my case it was developing active friendships  with
>others of an Indian background, getting into Indian philosophy,
>wanting to know more about the cultural, religious, and historical
>aspects of my own heritage, and being able to appreciate the life 
>experiences of those uncles and aunties beyond the accents.. May be 
>it is a question of anchoring my own identity.. I don't know


>Regards

>Ram

The main point to note is that 'strong wish to conform' is an immature
human tendancy and hence IAs in their younger years tend to deny their
Indianness to enhance their Americanness. Actually from my friends'
experiences I can say this is indepndant of 'nationality'. (i.e substitue
'German', 'French' etc. in place of Indian in previous sentence and it
is still true among young children of the immigrants - or hyphenated
americans as Paul Harvey called them on one of his radio show.)
There are some older youth that I know of, who still have harder time to
accept their origins. Heritage is quite a complex idea and not everyone
can quite grasp it. 
I think every college bound IA should consider taking at least one or
two courses that will introduce them to South Asian culture. Unfortunately
not many places offer it in their curriculum. If you are in places like 
Kentucky, there is no South Asian Studies department. In such cases, 
any 'eastern' civ. course can be bit more 'mind-widening'. 





--
--With best regards from Shashi
Login name: shashi | System Programmer By Profession | In real life:
                   | but heart(&SWEET-HEART) in Math.| Shashi Sathaye
shashi@ms.uky.edu	sysshash@ukcc.uky.edu  shashi@aix3090.uky.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: So why not just say "hi?"
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:43:03 GMT
Reply-To: samaddar@siemens.com
Distribution: alt.culture.us.asian-indian

In article <BHATTACH.92Dec9133629@tazboy.jpl.nasa.gov> bhattach@tazboy.jpl.nasa.gov (Bidushi Bhattacharya) writes:
>
>I was just walking back from lunch and passed yet another II/IA who avoided eye contact
>and didn't say "hi."  Is it my imagination, or do some Indian people develop an intense
>interest in the nearest sidewalk/wall when another Indian passes?

I also used to avoid eye contact upon seeing an Indian. It was easy for me to
look into the eye of a non-Indian and continue walking. Occasionally, I would
smile also upon such eye contact. But with an Indian, I felt as if it would be
impolite not to strike up a small conversation. However, since I was on my way
to some errand, I didn't want to spend that time on that conversation. So, I
would pretend that I didn't really see this Indian. That would rid me of any
guilt of not striking a conversation with him/her. It took me a while to
realize that my "trick" didn't fool anyone, and probably hurt the person.

So, nowdays I do make eye-contact with Indians, say "hi" and/or smile, and
move on if I am in a hurry.

Sumitro
From: madanga@hobo.ECE.ORST.EDU (Arun Madangarli)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Re: "This is knowledge for the soul"
Date: 12 Dec 1992 06:26:29 GMT
Organization: ECE Dept.,OSU,Corvallis
NNTP-Posting-Host: hobo.ece.orst.edu


Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Re: "This is knowledge for the soul"
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution:alt.culture.kerala
Organization: ECE Dept.,OSU,Corvallis
Keywords: 

In article <Bz40M0.JMq@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mchundat@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mathai Chundattu) writes:
>In article <1g8okoINNere@gap.caltech.edu> owl.caltech.edu!sathi (Narayana Sateesh Pillai) writes:
>>	Does anybody have the words to the song from the Malayalam movie
>>"Harischandran" which starts like this:
>>
>>	"Aatma vignaanamay ..."  ????
>>
>>After giving the transliteration, do you mind translating it?
>
>
>This is neither full nor exact. For me it was a kind of song which comes
>to mouth though I don't want to sing it! A typical desperado's (avaSan)
>song!
>
I can cudgel my memory into retrieving one more stanza of this song. Though
I agree with Mathai that this is a typically "avasan" song, this stanza is
really beautiful in its poetry .....

Thilakam chaarthi, cheekiyum-azhakaai,
kaathu sookshichoru punya sirassey,
ulakam vellaan uzhariya neeyum,
vila pidiyaathoru thalayodayi...

aathma vidyaalayamey....
>
>Translation! Are you kidding? 
>
 Amen ! 
>
>Later,
>
>Mathai
>-- 

Arun.P.Madangarli
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: cs911093@ariel.yorku.ca (SHANTY KOKKAT)
Subject: Tale: Silence is Golden
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:39:01 GMT


Old Mariam was a wise woman, but she was worried about her son,
Thoma.  The trouble with him was that he would be silent when
he ought to say at least a few words.  But Thoma was very timid,
and afraid that he would say the wrong thing.

The young man was about to go to his wife's house for the first
time.  If he didn't say anything to anyone there, what would 
they think?  So his mother told him, "Look here my boy, you
should not keep very silent at your wife's house.  You must
say something to your father-in-law at least".

"What can I say, mother"?, he asked.

"Oh, ask him something in which he would be interested. You can
think of something, can you not"?, asked she.

"Oh, yes I will do that, never fear", said Thoma.

When he reached his father-in-law's place, he was welcomed with
great affection and respect.  The arrival of a son-in-law is a
great event in Malayali home.  A very fine meal was prepared for
him, and they all sat together for lunch.

All this time, the young man was thinking of a suitable subject
to talk about.  Of course, he did answer the questions which were
put to him.  But he wanted to put some questions himself to the old
man.  At last he found a subject which could not fail to grip.
"Father, are you married"?, he asked.

Wise people say that speech is silver, but silence is golden.  But
could we say that the son-in-law's words were as valuable as silver?
No doubt his wife's people, by those words, were able to judge the
worth of the treasure they has secured.


Shanty KOkkat (cs911093@ariel.yorku.ca)