HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cb@wixer.cactus.org (Cyberspace Buddha)
Subject: Re: Preferred Gender
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 20:13:14 GMT

ST201434@brownvm.brown.edu (jude) writes:
>Maybe this is nothing, but then again, maybe not:
>
>It seems that most of the male posters concerning the backrub exchange idea
>have listed 'female' as the preferred gender to exchange with.  Could any of
>you venture possible reasoning for this?
>
While I haven't posted my exchange info, I think I'd have to 
qualify my preference for females with a need for strong fingers
and either good technique or the willingness to learn.

>I, for one, have noticed that with more novice massagers, a male is often
>a better choice since their hands are generally stronger.  A problem I've had
>with my female friends is that they find it difficult to apply enough pressure.
>I think one of the reasons I've always been able to give a good massage is
>having strong hands. ('piano-fingers', too, which seems to help.)
>
I've had the same problem with most female partners.  On the other
hand <no pun intended>, I've had one guy that felt like he wanted
to break my neck.  and this was after he'd worked on two or three
other people that absolutely raved over his fingers.  I was glad
that he quit on me after about 2 minutes claiming fatigue...

such is life, eh?

cb
-- 
 Cyberspace Buddha { Why are you looking for more knowledge when you  } /(o\
cb@wixer.cactus.org } do not pay attention to what you already know? {  \o)/
 Is this thing on? { Just say no to war, Bush, NSA, CIA, IRS, etc...  } fnord
From: clj2@po.CWRU.Edu (Cynthia L. Jorden)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: Frontrubs
Date: 10 Nov 92 13:10:10 GMT
Reply-To: clj2@po.CWRU.Edu (Cynthia L. Jorden)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, bafei@mvax.cc.conncoll.edu (We'll Be Back) 
>  When giving the massage you are concentrating
>on relaxing your partner, not on fulfulling your sexual fantasies.

That is the point of a massage, even with my SO, the massages aren't 
sexual.  Afterwards when he's relaxed we _sometimes_ get aroused.  But 
that happens after we've just layed there for a while, It is _not_!! part
of the massage.

>
>I once had a female friend give me a penile massage as part of a full body 
>massage and found it both pleasurable and non-sexual and would recommend
>it.  However, I'm not sure what would be an equivalent experience for a 
>woman.  As for the woman who ends her massages with a quick cupping of
>the scrtum and a stroke of the penis, I have two questions:

I'm not sure how to perform a penile massage.  I didn't really start 
giving massages until recently.  


>
>1.  What is the point.  The way you describe it, there doesn't seem to
>be enough "done" to accomplish anything, therapeutic or otherwise.  Can
>you explain further?
>

The point was made earlier.  If one area of the body isn't touched the 
energy tends to pool there, and the massage doesn't feel complete.  That
stroke is to release that energy and give the massage a finished feeling.

>2. Do you ask your male partners about this before doing it, and do you do it
>to male partners with whom you have no sexual relationship?
>
I've only had experience with one person. I didn't start giving massages 
untill recently.  No, because I've only had massage experience on one person.

-- 
What is Life?		What is Love?   	What is Reality?

Who are you?		  Who am I? 	      Is this one big dream?
From: clj2@po.CWRU.Edu (Cynthia L. Jorden)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Date: 9 Nov 1992 23:33:17 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: clj2@po.CWRU.Edu (Cynthia L. Jorden)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, werner@world.std.com (Craig Werner) says:

> 
>I have been massaged by many therapists, and I'd say a good 1/4 of
>themoided buttocks and abdominal massage.  At the expense 
>of a broad generalizatioy California therapists are less prudish 
>than those on the East Coast.  All my massages have been non-erotic.
> 
 
  The buttocks are a muscle.  No matter what emphasis society has
put on it, it is primarily a muscle.  That muscle is excersized 
when we walk, sit, stand, lay down, roleover, there isn't a movement 
I can think of where this muscle isn't exercised. The purpose of a 
massage is to relax all muscles...How can it be a massage if it doesn't
include the buttocks?
-- 
What is Life?		What is Love?   	What is Reality?

Who are you?		  Who am I? 	      Is this one big dream?
From: cms2839@ultb.isc.rit.edu (a.stranger)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:30:43 GMT
Organization: Minimalist Music for Hyperactive Children (MMHC)
Originator: cms2839@ultb


				we've all heard of smileys . that
doesn't change the fact that the " i can't control myself because i'm a
sexually charged male " is *still* being used to justify rape . i chose
to take to point seriously ( *not* lecture ; my statement that " i agree
with cathy " is hardly lecturing ! ) because of this . the statement is
neither original , nor particularly funny , IMHO , but deserves some
comment .

In article <MeyJX8_00WBNI37ssg@andrew.cmu.edu> Daniel Calle <dc5p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>I have as well.  And I doubt that I would be able to massage a woman's
>breasts without becoming aroused but it is easy not to act on it. 
>Arousal like that is what you make of it, you can either become tense
>and excited and switch your hand motion from massaging to erotic or you
>can just let it give you a warm feeling inside while you continue as
>before.

				i guess i should clarify that total body
massages are fairly commonplace among a group of my friends and i . if
you're at all used to being naked with other people ( we're naturists )
, it really isn't particularly sexually stimulating . nudists quickly
unlearn the decidedly western notion that mere nudity should be
titilation .

				really , in a full body massage , you
can't *not* massage any part of a person's body , or you're just calling
attention to it ! you simply treat all skin equally .


-- 
       @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
       @       "Imagination keeps the shadows away  -  Xymox       @
       @~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@
       @ a.stranger - CMS2839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu - PGP key on req. @
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Supersedes: <92310.231714LLH111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:24:17 EST
From: <LLH111@psuvm.psu.edu>

I think that 'platonic communication' and erotic communication
are on the same continuum (can you say CONTINUUM??).  You may
be bummed because you think of sex as a very limited thing, but
to imply clear-cut generalizations that human contact is either
sex or non-sex is foolish.
.
Richard
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:28:13 EST
From: <KMN104@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: Preferred Gender
 <ARCHER.410.721405681@utkvm1.utk.edu>

I agree with archer its not neccesairly a sexist kindof thing.  I myself
have no problem recieving a backrub from another male and have done so many
times while 'out on the trail, hiking' However once other portions of the
body are involved I begin to feel uncomfortable and tense.  I'm not
completely sure, but I would accredit this to my North eastern, up tight,
conservative, up bringing, none the less the purpose of massage is to relax
the individual, therefore my discomfort becomes counter productive.
Not that this applies to everyone, but its not too poor of a generalization.
                  Kevin Nadzam   *{:*)

              Penn State University
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
From: fylakte@murr11.alleg.edu (Eleftherios Fylaktos)
Subject: Re: RE: frontrubs
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:05:45 GMT

In article <3NOV92.20364756@vax.clarku.edu> plowenstein@vax.clarku.edu  
writes:
> yes, i ave been having these aches in my breats for awhile now and i  
think
> all i need is a nice, relaxing rub down.; one that will pput me to sleep

rub me hard
From: ST201434@brownvm.brown.edu (Hey Jude)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Date: 9 Nov 92 01:59:29 GMT
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

In article <BxB3ww.8q4@world.std.com>, werner@world.std.com (Craig Werner)
said:
>
>Many female therapists to whom I have gone also avoid my breasts.  (I am,
>as my name suggests, mail.)  *Every* profesional therapist, of course,
                      -----

     Sorry, I couldn't help calling attention to that.  Is this going to start
a new virtual massage thread?  :)

                                        -jude
I don't know, but I been told
It's hard to run with the weight of gold.
On the other hand I've heard it said
It's just as hard with the weight of lead...
                   -GDead
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 14:01:21 GMT

In <Fu2qTB2w165w@xocolatl.com> eoin@xocolatl.com (John F. Snyder) writes:

>emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:


>-> You've obviously never been a sexually charged male  :-)

>Well I am and I agree with Cathy.

>If you can't separate your concepts of touch and sex, then at least
>stop making insinuating remarks ("a FRONT rub." and "clients are from
>my own selection") and just be honest ("I want to give/receive a 
>massage that leads to sex.")

How long have you been on the net?  Do you know what :-) means?
Save your lectures for you pets.


> eoin@xocolatl.com  |      Practice Random Kindness   /~~~~~~~~~~~~~\  /
> GEnie: J.Snyder18  |  *             and             <  D A R W I N  >< 
> CI$:   70313,3111  | \|/  Senseless Acts of Beauty   \_____________/  \
> Prodigy:  NOT!!!!  |           PGP 2.0 User            _l _l _l _l 
--
Eli Chiprout
Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
emc@doe.carleton.ca                                     
"Je ne peut etre sauf qui je suis"
From: cms2839@ultb.isc.rit.edu (a.stranger)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Date: 6 Nov 92 23:13:39 GMT
Organization: Minimalist Music for Hyperactive Children (MMHC)
Originator: cms2839@ultb

In article <1ddkfsINNd38@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca> arnett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Arnett) writes:
>In article <1992Nov6.003043.2765@ultb.isc.rit.edu> cms2839@ultb.isc.rit.edu (a.stranger) writes:
>>				really , in a full body massage , you
>>can't *not* massage any part of a person's body , or you're just calling
>>attention to it ! you simply treat all skin equally .

>So, you are saying that the genetals should be included in every
>full body massage???
>
				i'm saying that *not* touching them
calls attention to them . some people seem to apprecaite this lack of
attention ! 8^>= if there's a good way to massage genetals , i haven't
figured it out . just brushing your hand over them relieves the sense of
having them feel " left out , " but , at least for me , pressure can be
uncomfortable . 

				every woman i've ever spoken to agrees
with your quote about leaving the breasts out being somewhat
condescending . generally , i just give them a very light stroke ,
somewhat in the manner of the book you quoted , but i've never been so
methodical ( 3 CW , 3 CCW ) about it .

-- 
       @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
       @       "Imagination keeps the shadows away  -  Xymox       @
       @~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@
       @ a.stranger - CMS2839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu - PGP key on req. @
From: chorwitz1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Cathy Horwitz)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrub
Date: 9 Nov 92 00:58:48 GMT
Organization: Swarthmore College

>From: chorwitz1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Cathy Horwitz)
To: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
<1992Nov6.003043.2765@ultb.isc.rit.edu> <emc.721057985@reg>
<1992Nov6.232230.6236@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
Organization: Swarthmore College

Hey evrybody,
	I think we need to relax.  Some of the people who are writing to this
bulletin board are getting kind of tense and kind of rude.  Remember that
the things which people are writing are generalization, and that not
everyong has as much information about the subject as others.  Try to state
your points politely, even if your are very upset about what is written. 
We are talking about one of the best (the best?) forms of relaxation, but
we're getting each other all stressed.  Hope you seriously consider this. 
Thanks,
																																																														Cathy
From: keg@strathspey.llnl.gov (Keith Grant)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: massage, sensuality & sexuality
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:46:58 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Originator: keg@strathspey.llnl.gov


A few comments on the arousal/sensuality/sexuality and breast massage
threads:

I'll readily agree that even massage that is intended to be nonsexual can at 
times lead to some arousal - especially in the young and hormone charged.
To focus on that however is to ignore the issue of choice and personal
responsibility.  If you ignore the rules in sports you get penalized -
at times even sidelined.  If, despite some arousal, you can't relate to
another personal with respect and consideration and demonstrate an ability
to control your actions why be surprised to find yourself unwelcome.  Yes,
one can still make jokes about sex, but using humor to belittle and ignore
womens' objections about being treated as unfeeling objects isn't all that
funny.  Several politicians learned that lesson the hard way in the last
election - either by losing or by winning narrowly after a very hard
fought race.


As to massaging breasts etc.:
In any kind of professional work, massaging genitals and nipples is strictly
avoided.  Legitimate practitioners have a hard enough time with licensing
laws and public image without asking for problems.  Downings nonsexual
breast movement may be appropriate, but only with persons with whom the
practicioner has both trust and clarity.  There are a large number
of victims of sexual and/or physical abuse who seek massage as part of
their healing process.  Many times they may not even have conscious
memory of their abuse history. There is a lot of potential for doing as much
damage as good by being careless and triggering vulnerabilities.  

Professional massage practitioner/client relationships have some strict
ethical considerations.  Because a practitioner/client relationship almost 
always implies unequal power, dual relationships where a person is both a 
client and a sexual partner are considered unethical.  You can have one or 
the other but not both.  It's not even considered advisable to switch from 
one to the other without a several month cooling off period.



  +-------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
  I                         I Common sense and a sense of humor are the     I
  I Keith Eric Grant        I same thing, moving at different speeds.  A    I
  I keg@strathspey.llnl.gov I sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. I
  I                         I (or perhaps dancing is just common sense)     I
  +-------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
  I For certain it is, that any ideas expressed above are of my own humble  I
  I opinion and bear nary a relation to the policies or positions of LLNL   I
  I or of any agency or contractor of the U.S. Government.                  I
  +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: cms2839@ultb.isc.rit.edu (a.stranger)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Distinction between Backrubs and Massage Therapy
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:10:51 GMT
Organization: Minimalist Music for Hyperactive Children (MMHC)
Originator: cms2839@ultb


				one point that seems to be driven home
by the " frontrubs " thread is that it is important between to
distinguish between informal backrubs and massage therapy .

				the dividing line is not necessary one
of skill or style , but , mainly , money . massage therapists have every
reason to avoid certain areas of people's body ; they have enough
problems protecting their reputations as it is , what with the
proliferation of escort services offering " hot oil rubs " and " asian
massage parlors " as thinly veiled fronts for prostitution . when money
is exchanged for a massage , any -- however inaccurate -- perception of
a sexual act might lead people to jump to incorrect conclusions about
the nature of the business . for this , they have my sympathies . they
deserve to be treated as demigods . . . 8^>=

				where money is not concerned , a
perception of a sexual act is simply a reflection of the nature of the
relationship between the giver and receiver . 

				therefore , i think , it is important
not to try to read the ethos of one situation into the other .

-- 
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       @       "Imagination keeps the shadows away  -  Xymox       @
       @~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@
       @ a.stranger - CMS2839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu - PGP key on req. @
From: cms2839@ultb.isc.rit.edu (a.stranger)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Keywords: breast massage
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:01:24 GMT
Organization: Minimalist Music for Hyperactive Children (MMHC)
Originator: cms2839@ultb

mikej@access.digex.com (Mike Jacobs) writes:
 
>in my massage class, it was quite explicitly stated that 'sensitive' areas,
>which included genital areas, and anywhere else where the person
>was sensitive (for instance, the buttocks or the stomach may also
>contain a lot of energy) should be avoided.
> 
				i don't want to seem like too much of a
contrarian 8^>= , but i can't remember meeting anyone who didn't like a
butt massage , provided that there were no sexual overtones . these feel
genuinely wonderful . . .

-- 
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       @       "Imagination keeps the shadows away  -  Xymox       @
       @~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@
       @ a.stranger - CMS2839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu - PGP key on req. @
From: ST201434@brownvm.brown.edu (jude)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Preferred Gender
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:13:24 EST
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

Maybe this is nothing, but then again, maybe not:

It seems that most of the male posters concerning the backrub exchange idea
have listed 'female' as the preferred gender to exchange with.  Could any of
you venture possible reasoning for this?

I, for one, have noticed that with more novice massagers, a male is often
a better choice since their hands are generally stronger.  A problem I've had
with my female friends is that they find it difficult to apply enough pressure.
I think one of the reasons I've always been able to give a good massage is
having strong hands. ('piano-fingers', too, which seems to help.)

PLEASE don't take any statement above as sexist.  I'm just wondering if the
males preferring females is a sign of sexism.  Why the preference?

                                  just curious...
                                           -jude

You say the hill's too steep to climb- climb it!
You say you'd like to see me try- climb it!
You pick the place and I'll choose the time
And I'll climb the hill in my own way...
                -PFloyd
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
From: richard@octel.com (Richard Karasik)
Subject: Re: Massage in Boston
Organization: Octel Communications Inc., Milpitas Ca.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:56:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.041404.3834@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> bamancio@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (brandon amancio) writes:
>
>
>Hello folks, 
>	I am a College Student in Boston right now.  I have always given
>a pretty good back and foot massage but have always wanted to have some
>porfessional training.  I was wondering if anyone could suggest some
>good schools in the Boston area (if anyone lives here.)  If not, could
>you suggest some good booksm and or tapes that might be a good reference
>for full body massage.

Try the following for leads to a school

Katherine Leigh Dome -Cmabridge   617 497 0976
Ayn ROse-  Cambridge 617 868 3777

If you need people further out of boston area let me know
Richard
-- 
|UUCP  richard@octel.com                 VOICE (HEY YOU!) or 408 321 6372
| 
|             Speaker for the dead - among them:
|                 Liberty, Justice, Freedom
From: ellisj@ashanti.austin.ibm.com (John Ellis)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Date: 11 Nov 92 00:02:50 GMT
Reply-To: ellisj@ashanti.austin.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Austin
Originator: ellisj@hurbee.austin.ibm.com


If massage is to be respected as a profession, then it must be respectable.
I want massage to be something that I am proud to be involved with. One aspect
of this is that the client/therapist boundary must be clear. The massage
should be a massage - which though these can be sensual, they are not sexual.
Of course what people do in private is their own concern.
During a massage, the client should be draped - and this should be used to
establish the clear boundary required. I do not know for other parts of the
country, but I would feel that here, not following that practise might lead
to misunderstandings. These in turn might lead the therapist to losing their
registration/licence.

I cannot see how the gential area can be part of a professional massage - it
is far too ambiguous an area. As for the buttocks, they are one of the largest
muscles in the body. They require deep massage, and can benefit from such
work.
-- 
John Ellis                -- These opinions are my own, and are not 
Austin, Texas.            -- to be taken as representitive of my company