From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re:  Re: Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:54:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.091054.24186@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:

# I'm going to add my $.02 -- why not?  Everyone else does.

	You forgot to figure in inflation.

# I think the deportations were illegal.  Not because of the Geneva
# conventions, but because they ignored things like Due Process.

	What due process was given to the residents of Hiroshima,
Nagasaki, or Dresden?

# But, as well as being illegal, the deportations were stupid.  They
# do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to solve *any* of the problems of Israel.

	Actually, deportations, in such small numbers, are stupid.  I
agree.

# The *only* purpose for the deportations was political -- Rabin was under
# pressure to do something in response to the killings, so he did.

	Wrong here.  If you get rid of somone who is harming you, they can
no longer harm you.

# Look at it from this point of view:
 
# Are the deportations likely to deter future killings?  No.  They're more
# likely to *incite* killings.

	Precisely because not enough were deported.

# Are the deportations likely to help make progress in the peace talks?
# No, quite the opposite.  They're likely to damage the peace process.

	Here you are wrong.  There is no "peace" process.  There is only a
piece process, by which Israel will be dismantled piece by piece.

# Are the deportations likely to help Israel in the view of the world?
# No, of course not.  They're just likely to damage Israel's reputation again.

	Like it matters any more, even if Israel could do something about
it.

# Therefore, do the deportations make Israel more secure?  No.  The 400
# alleged HAMAS members are a drop in the bucket.  It isn't as if these
# 400 people make up the vast majority of the violent wing of the
# Palestinian side (not to mention that there isn't even any evidence 
# presented that these people *are* actually violent.

	If the join HAMAS, that qualifies them as violent.  HAMAS has only
one raison de'etre.

	And I agree, 400 will not do the job.

# Furthermore, this whole secrecy and lack of trial thing offends my
# sensibilities.

	Too bad.  The situation Israel is in offends most honarable
people's sensibilities.

# I know people on this thread have been saying, "But this is war; courts
# and due process can't apply here."  Sorry, I don't buy it.  I don't accept
# that war allows governments to do whatever they feel like to ensure
# security; there are still some limitations on their activities.  Not to
# mention that it sets a bad precedent to violate civil liberties of
# *anyone* at any time.  

	Security MUST come first.  While extreme actions may not be
necessary, security cannot be compromised.

# (Basically, I view this as pretty analagous to the US interment of
# Japanese-Americans during WW2, actually.  The government there, too,
# said there was an imminent security threat because a war was going on.
# Many of the people arguing this may even have believed it sincerely.  It
# didn't make the actions right, however.)

	No analogy.  Those Japanese did not belong to any organization
whose sole purpose was to destroy the US.

# Furthermore, while a state of war does exist, that doesn't make the
# claim precisely accurate that "this is war."  

	Excuse me.  This is peace.

# There is nothing impeding the courts from acting in this case; it would
# be different if tanks were overrunning Israel and Israel needed to make
# sure there were no 5th columnists which could hurt Israeli defenses.
# But there aren't; Israel would be in no worse shape if it arrested these
# 400 people and put them on trial.

	Oh, but it would.  The "learn" things in prison.  Besides they
become fodder for terrorist actions to free them.

# But all that is, again, almost an aside.  If I thought that these
# actions might help Israeli security, I'd have to give them more careful
# consideration; maybe there could be a way of justifying them.  But I
# don't think they do this at all.  I think they *hurt* Israeli security
# in the long run, without even helping it in the short run.


	I agree, especially if they take them back, which I am afraid will
happen.

# I'm willing to listen to and consider logical arguments against this 
# position, but not ranting and raving from any side.

	Good point.  However, the situation Israel is in often does not
allow for rational thought before actions are taken.  You have a
luxury they don't.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast