HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jjh00@outs.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: liability for trip organizers?
Summary: If you have to talk them into it, don't
Keywords: suasion
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:53:35 GMT
Reply-To: jjh00@OUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

> I'm wondering if anyone's ever thought about the liability in
> getting friends
> from work or wherever together to go backpacking.

In addition to the good advice from Hal, I'd like to recommend
my own rule of thumb for trip organizing:


   If you have to talk them into it, don't.


Eager, competent, motivated people don't need to have their
fears assuaged -- they ask information questions, rather than
for reassurance.  When I find myself starting to persuade,
a little alarm goes off, and I say

   "Well, if you have serious doubts about the trip,
    it's probably better if you don't go."

In my admittedly limited experience, it's the neophyte you
talked into going who resentfully holds you responsible
for anything that goes wrong.  Even these folks
are lawsuits
waiting to happen.

---
Joel Hanes
From: rob@cygnus.com (Rob Savoye)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: no tent works 3 days in the rain
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:35:22 GMT
	<1992Jul28.153203.13160@u.washington.edu>
Organization: Cygnus Support -- +1 415 322 3811
In-reply-to: les@redx.washington.edu's message of 28 Jul 92 15:32:03 GMT


  Well I have a Trailwise Fitroy III and it does well in prolonged
rain. I once used it on a 6 week trip to the Alps where it rained for
5 of them. I think the key is a good fly and having the tent on a
good, slightly raised spot with good drainage. Course in most
campgrounds in the Alps, there isn't a whole lot of choice as to where
to put the tent cause the campgrounds are so small.

	- rob -
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sherod@newton.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod)
Subject: Re: Back Packing in the Mt Massive, Mt Elbert areas
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 05:02:32 GMT

In article <14089@nntp_server.ems.cdc.com> jsemrad@ems.cdc.com writes:
>head.  With today's emphasis on litigation, I would guess that maybe there
>are at least some warning signs aroung the old mines now.  Maybe someone
>who has been there lately can report.
>
>Joe
>-- 

In Colorado you pay the people that come get you out of a mine.  It's
also possible that entering an abandoned mine can get you fined.

scott herod
 


Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: karld@engin.umich.edu (Karl Diederich )
Subject:  Long Trail Information Request
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 02:08:04 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Distribution: na
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Bigfoot
From: derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 06:11:17 GMT
Organization: Fujitsu New Zealand

In article <1992Jul22.184503.52071@chili.cc.lehigh.edu> carmanr@lafcol.lafayette.edu (Carman Robert (picro)) writes:
>Derek Kirkland wants to know how anyone could think the zebra was unknown
>to science until the 1930s. I think the animal in question is not the zebra
>but the okapi, which was not identified and described as a species until 
>1900. It lives in the rain forests of Uganda and Zaire. It also has some
>stripes, hence the probable confusion. The last large, terrestrial mammal
>to be identified, the okapi is practically the mascot of the so-called
>"cryptozoologists," 

The Okapi is quite large but is amazingly well camouflaged!  Before midday
they hardly move and blend in superbly with the Jungle shadows.  It took
us several minutes to spot the Okapi in a large open pen.  In the Jungle
it would have been alomst impossible.  So it is hardly surprising that they
weren't discovered until recently.  Probably the only reason the haven't 
been eaten to extinction is that they are sacred to the pygmy and eating 
one would be akin to eating a member of your family.

Wasn't there a new mammal discovered very recently (within weeks).  A friend
caught the end of the news item but I unfortunately missed it.

Derek Tearne



-- 
Derek Tearne  derek@icl.co.nz or derek@fivegl.co.nz --Fujitsu SDC,Auckland,NZ

My 'self aware' .signature file failed his Turing test.  
It turns out he was just a chess playing midget in a decorative box.
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: no tent works 3 days in the rain
Date: 22 Jul 1992 02:44:53 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

Has anybody found a modern tent that keeps you dry for more than
three days of solid rain?  I've done this in a Eureka, a North Face,
and a Sierra Designs - they all performed the same.

After the first night, condensation builds up on the inside of the
rainfly.  After the second night, this condensation completely soaks
the fabric of the inner tent.  After the third night, your sleeping
bag is wet all over.  Usually I pack up and leave before spending a
fourth night.  Of course it's worse if you move the tent.  Adequate
pitching and drainage control usually prevents floor leaks.

In my childhood, I seem to remember canvas tents performing better
than this, as long as you didn't touch the fabric.  Is this just some
kind of fond memory?

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: mulberry@triton.unm.edu ()
Subject: Re: no tent works 3 days in the rain
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 00:31:33 GMT
Expires: Mon, 10 Aug 92 06:00:00 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <Jul27.223129.49350@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <l6pit5INN9hb@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>>Has anybody found a modern tent that keeps you dry for more than
>>three days of solid rain?
>
>No.

Au contraire....There was a tent that was manufactured by Early Winters.
It was a mountaineering, four season tent.  I forget the name of the
tent.  It had a built-in rain-fly and was principly made of Gortex.  It
was not a cheap tent.  I used to do alot of backpacking in the Pacific
Northwest and B.C. where it rains alot.  It would rain for days.  The
tent was excellent in keeping one dry inside.  Unfortunately, the tent
got lost during a college class trek to the Grand Canyon.  Early Winters
went out of business, but I understand some other outdoor firm makes
a _copy_ of this tent.  I am still trying to find out the firms name and
the new tent name.


Bill  (mulberry@triton.unm.edu)            

------------------------------------------------------------------
    My whole life long I've sharpened my sword.
       And now, face to face with death
            I unsheathe it,  and lo --
            the blade is broken --
                     Alas!
                                -- Dairin Soto
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: sherod@newton.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Sporty car for canoeing???
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:37:02 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

Get a 20 year old CJ.
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:59:59 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Jul27.201207.5905@sequent.com> davide@sequent.com (Dave English) writes:
>
>Soooooo, my suggestion.  "When in Rome, figure out what the Romans do
>before you do anything permanent"

... and don't do anything permanent.  Destruction is a one way street.

>Or you could stick to winter ascents.  Plodding on snow leaves no trace.  :-)

Correction, it leaves a less permanent trace.  But most of the waterfall
ice climbs are chopped up and ruined by the time they form anymore.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: madenner@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mark andrew denner)
Subject: wood burning stoves
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 01:10:58 GMT

	Has anyone ever had any experience with portable wood burning
cooking stoves?  there's one for sale in a recent Campmor catalogue,
described as able to burn twigs, pinecones or charcoal and boil a pint
of water in four minutes.  this sounds rather nice, especially since i
don't have to bring any fuel and the wood burner sounds a bit more
ecological and certainly better smelling.  It weighs about a pound,
which i can live with, and costs about $35, which I can afford.  It for
some reason calls for two AA batteries, which i can't fathom.  Still, it
sounds too good to be true.  has anyone ever used one?  feel free to
mail me with the answers-- if i get enough, i'll post a summary.

						madenner
					madenner@silver.ucs.indiana.edu








-- 
Mark A. Denner                    Internet: MADENNER@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
                 Indiana University, Bloomington
               Protect your First Amendment Rights
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Subject: Re: long pants/shorts
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 23:09:02 GMT

Well, there's was an interesting filler piece in the paper the other
day about whether to cover up or not in the great, hot outdoors.

It seems that back in WWII the military did a little test.  They took
some subjects out to the desert (volunteers, I bet) and had them
undergo two "sessions" in 100F/40C weather.  One was done in
standard military fatigues, hat & boots.  The other was in gym shorts,
hat &boots.  The men reported *feeling* cooler when in shorts, but
they lost an average of 250ml more water per day than when wearing
long pants and shirt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Reece		
Not an Intel spokesman  
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Public perceptions.
Date: 30 Jul 92 10:38:11 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

A friend of mine who was working on a research project at Ranier one
summer was asked were the road to the top was.  He informed the
tourist that there was not one.  The tourist in tern said that he knew
that there was one because he had eatten a hamburger on top the year
before. 

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah


"Pucky lads, a wee bit over their heads"

	Doug Scott after encountering two climbers
	on Denali suffering from exposure.
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:5456 rec.climbing:2524
From: ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Bigfoot
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:52:40 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


   At the time of the film, Walt Disney Studios studied the footage and
said that even they couldn't have produced such a hoax. The muscles in the
animal's legs and arms move for one thing, and a human would have to have
his arms busted in two places to fit into that "suit". Napier (an expert on
primates) thought the film couldn't be a hoax if it was filmed at a specific
speed (the film speed was unkown), and some Russian scientists counted the
up and down of the camera (as Patterson took steps) to figure out the speed
(which was at the "non-hoax" speed).
-- 
"A large creature about 7 1/2 to 8 foot tall. It was greyish black in color,
and as it went away from me I seen the backside of it walking as a man would
walk on it's hind legs."- Former Sheriff Oliver Potter, Vancouver, Washington
The Cryptozoology Information Network. Want on our Email mailing list? Amiga!
From: johnc@yuma.acns.colostate.edu (John Cooley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: sustained yield forestry
Summary: Cut 'em all
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:36:31 GMT
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Jul22.060239.6582@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:

>Well I think we need to quickly mow down all the trees, make the
>Earth completely paved at 68 F, take a few prime specimens (with animals)
>and blast them in orbit between Saturn and Jupiter under the care of American
>Airlines, a few small robots, etc.......  The quicker the better, right?!

Yeah, right, that's the ticket!  Cut 'em all.  Earth was given to man (notice
traditional sexist language here) to use, right?  Well, let's use it!  Enough
of this namby-pamby save-the-earth crap!  Let's get to work!  Keep this
economy rolling!  Keep us all fully employed!  We've got trees to cut, so
let's cut 'em!  There is no ecological crisis.  It's all propaganda by the
left-wing commie pinko drug using students and elitist computer jocks.  What
do they know?  They're not in contact with the land, like loggers and miners
and ranchers.  There are still trees.  You had a drink of water this morning
and it didn't kill you, did it?  That must mean heavy metal runoff from
mining operations is no problem, right?  Sure, the streams around Leadville
have some interesting colors to them, but, hey, you've gotta break a few eggs
to make an omelet, you know.  Global warming?  Who are they kidding?  I mean,
"they" say average temperatures have gone up 1.5 degrees in 100 years.  1.5
degrees???  Sheesh!  You can hardly read that on your thermometer!  What
difference does it make?  It's 10 degrees warmer today than it was yesterday.
Does that mean everything's gonna die?  NOT!  Ozone hole?  Well, as R. J.
Reynolds likes to say, they haven't *proved* anything yet.  Let's be cautious
here.  No reason to interrupt bazillions of dollars worth of economic activity
just because of a bunch of alarmist know-nothing commie pinko drug-using
scientists with bogus government grants!  They ought to get real jobs, like
cutting trees or drilling for oil.  Get their hands dirty.  It'd do 'em some
good.

This message has beene brat too yoo bie the Dan Kwail Komitee on Kompetitiveness
and Anti-Intellectuallism.  Eat a potadough today!

Another obnoxious diatribe by:
  John Cooley
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: vsh@etnibsd.uucp (Steve Harris)
Subject: Re: no tent works 3 days in the rain
Organization: Eaton Corp, Semiconductor Equipment Div., Beverly, MA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:55:51 GMT

In article <l6pit5INN9hb@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>Has anybody found a modern tent that keeps you dry for more than
>three days of solid rain?

I recently purchased a Sierra Designs "ClipLight 3", a three person
version of their "FlashLight" tent (with clip attachemnts to the poles).
This tent has a mesh vent hole in the roof which is supposed to promote
ventilation when the tent is used by three people and/or for extended
periods of time.  (I've seen other tents with this kind of construction).

I don't have enough experience with this tent yet to say how it
performs during an extended downpour, but perhaps a tent with a roof
vent would meet your needs.

BTW, although the tent is (barely) big enough for three adults, but my
wife and I find it makes a great two person tent.

-- 
... Steve Harris - Eaton Corp. - Beverly, MA - uunet!etnibsd!vsh
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee)
Subject: Re: Backpacking in the BA?
Reply-To: klee@wsl.dec.com
Organization: DEC Western Software Laboratory
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 18:12:39 GMT

|> 	You might look at Henery Coe State Park in the Santa Clara Valley. 

Henry Coe may be closed during the summer because of fire danger.  It's also
very hot, so not much fun.  During the winter, it's very pleasant, and not
very crowded.

You can also try the Big Sur area (Los Padres National Forest).  Watch out
for the poison oak, though.

-- 
Ken Lee
DEC Western Software Laboratory, Palo Alto, Calif.
Internet: klee@wsl.dec.com
uucp: uunet!decwrl!klee
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: marc@mercutio.ultra.com (Marc Kwiatkowski {Host Software-AIX})
Subject: Re: Chevron - People Do?
Organization: Ultra Network Technologies
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 01:07:14 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.005153.25971@eos.arc.nasa.gov> jbm@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jeffrey Mulligan) writes:

>   Any of you who watch television probably know what I'm talking about:
>   those schmaltzy ads where a couple of engineers replace some baby
>   bunnies in their nest after the pipeline construction is finished;
>   "Do people really go to that much trouble so that baby bunnies blah
>   blah blah?" [Fade to Chevron logo] "People Do."

>   So my question is, do you think this is just a bunch of BS, or is
>   Chevron (or any other oil company) actually significantly more
>   environmentally responsible that the others?

A lot of people have responded flatly that this is BS.  I think they
are wrong, but that does not mean Chevron is being perfectly candid
about their relationship with the environment.  As a Nature Conservancy
member I learned that Chevron is a big contributor to that organization.
Probably on that basis alone, Chevron can get away with the advertisement
campaign described above.  Are members of Chevron's staff actively 
involved in the protection of various endangered environments?  Probably
not.  Does Chevron cut deals like, "Let us drill here and we'll buy 
those wetlands there and give them to the Nature Conservancy".  Probably.

So, in a perfectly honest world the tag line of these advertisements should
be restated as

"Do people make big donations to environmental organizations?  When
local regulations or public relations it makes good business sense to do so....
 	People do"








-- 
Marc P. Kwiatkowski                  /|/|            Ultra Network Technologies
internet: marc@ultra.com     \______/ | | W.A.S.T.E. 101 Daggett Drive
uucp: ...!ames!ultra!marc    / (__) \ | |            San Jose, CA 95134 USA
voice: 408 922 0100 x249             \|\|
From: kupstas@rainier.cs.unc.edu (Eileen Kupstas)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Hiking boot break-in suggestions
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:21:02 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill


 I recently bought a pair of Merrill Guides -- the "built
to last forever" heavy duty type boot. I know break in will
be a slow process, but (it seems) I may have some particular 
trouble, according to my salesperson. 

The salesperson said that people of my weight (about 115) cannot
flex the sole enough to get a smooth walking motion. That is,
the heel hits, then ka-chunks to the flat of the sole due
to my inability to get a lot of weight on the "roll" of the
step (if this all makes sense). He suggested cutting the 
edge of the heel, to round it a bit, to avoid the "ka-chunk"
effect. Bad ascii drawing:

Before:                           After:

  _________/            |            _________/            |
 /                      |           /                      |
|              /-\      |          |              /-\      |
|-------------/   \-----|          |-------------/   \----/
                                                          ^^^^^^^cut
front                heel          front                heel


He said that the "ka-chunk" motion may lead to knee problems...
Is all this reasonable? Have other lightweights had a problem 
breaking in the hefty boots? I plan to break them in carrying
about 30 lbs. -- will that be enough weight to flex the sole?
(I can't really tell at this stage, myself - the boots are 
so stiff.) Any suggestions for helping this process? Will cutting
the edge of the heel affect the fit of crampons (lightweight sort,
not serious sort)?


Any information, horror stories appreciated.

Thanks!
Eileen 
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bergmann@gboro.glassboro.edu (Seth Bergmann)
Subject: Weather in RMNP
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Glassboro State College
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:32:07 GMT


We are planning a 4 night back packing trip in RMNP starting from the
Grand Lake visitor center Monday.  Does anyone know what the weather
has been there recently?  How cold has it gotten overnight?  Any
snow along the continental divide?

- Seth Bergmann (Rowan College of New Jersey)
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:04:42 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

>>trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
>>>My favorite signs are the "Adopt a Highway Litter Control"

In article <1992Jul30.013014.15376@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
jbm@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jeffrey Mulligan) writes:
>During a recent trip, I say the following sponsor for a few miles of
>US 395 between Mammoth Lakes and June Lake:
>
>"Another June Lake Liberial" [sic]
>
>I thought this was pretty amusing.
>
>Is June Lake known for liberals?
>Or bad spellers?

Rats you beat me to the post!  But I think the wording is"
	"Another one of those June Lake liberals."
Linus and I got a kick out of seeing that.  I pass it again this tomorrow
evening so I can check the spelling.

Someone has a sense of humor.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Subject: Re: no tent works 3 days in the rain
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:31:01 GMT

In <l6pit5INN9hb@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>In my childhood, I seem to remember canvas tents performing better
>than this, as long as you didn't touch the fabric.  Is this just some
>kind of fond memory?

The only reason nylon tents are the universal choice of recreational
outdoor people is their light weight.
People who have to live in the bush for weeks/months at a time have
traditionally used canvas tents which would generally have enough height
to stand in and be equipped with a small wood burning stove
(a rather dubious proposition in a nylon tent) for cooking and drying 
clothing.  This type of tent can provide relatively comfortable
accomodation during extremely wet or cold weather.

Someday I'd like to acquire a canvas tent with stove for winter camping.
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"Why can't we just forget about our constitutional problems and go canoeing?"
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry