From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: reading / FAQ projects (was Re: Silver cord)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:10:41 GMT

Thanks to Robert for his response.  I may disagree with what he says, but
I defend his right to say it.  My own view is that if we have an open
forum, we have to be fairly open ourselves.

In article <1992Nov16.232040.12005@m.cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu writes:

> ...
> Hmm.  I thought LH and I were discussing something we had read and were
> informed about.  And I didn't notice any slurs in anything either one of 
> us said.  Not until someone decided to wave around words like "gullibility",
> "enslavement" and "outmoded scientific paradigm".  Maybe you could just
> butt-out of this conversation, GST, LH and I were proceeding just fine
> without you telling us how to conduct our conversation.

My point is that I'd prefer to talk at a greater level of specificity.
If Robert wants to chat privately with Lorin, there's always email.  The
whole point of a public forum, IMHO, is that it's public, so I have as
much right as anyone to offer my comments.  I find it interesting to note,
BTW, that Lorin agrees with my suggestion:

| Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
| Subject: Re: reading / FAQ projects (was Re: Silver cord)
| Message-ID: <hawleylm-161192141000@hawley.apple.com>
| From: hawleylm@apple.com (Lorin Hawley)
| Date: 16 Nov 92 22:17:12 GMT
|
| > Really, folks - why can't those of us who are interested just go out and
| > spend some time actually reading what these people have to say, so we can
| > have an informed discussion...
|
| Yes! That is partly what I was getting at when I mentioned the effects that
| listening to many personal accounts of NDE's had on people like Moody,
| Morse, Ring, and Kubler-Ross. For those of us who have not heard many
| personal narratives of NDE's, simply reading excerpts of accounts in books
| by the above authors is quite impressive...
|
| Lorin Hawley

My proposal is that we agree to read certain books together, so that we
can evaluate what various authors have to say on these subjects, rather
than talking in such generalities.  Perhaps Lorin could offer some sug-
gestions.

As for my characterization of the previous exchanges, I think it's fair to
say that there has been a fair bit of non-communication going on as people
have questioned the basic premises one another starts with.  Perhaps my
use of the word "gullibility" was overly strong, but I didn't mean it to
apply to Robert specifically.  And there have been those who have opined
that to even talk about these things as being subject to analysis and/or
some form of scientific investigation somehow threatens the whole experience.

I find myself someplace in the middle, should anyone care.  I would like to
get a better understanding of the phenomena on a variety of levels, as well
as to have the benefit of the experiences and opinions of others.

But how about a reading project?  Does anyone know what Ken Ring or Raymond
Moody has written recently (I read the classics about near-death experiences
several years ago, including Moody's _Life After Life_ and Ring's _Life at
Death_).  I'd prefer to consider something that makes more explicit refer-
ence to the OBE experience, even if in the context of a discussion of NDEs
(near-death experiences).  Or should we start with something more specifi-
cally about OBEs?  (I suppose that Susan Blackmore's book is worthy of a
joint read at some point, but first I'd like to become better acquainted
with what people who have had the experiences and/or who have collected
anecdotal accounts have to say about them).

And what about the FAQ?  I have set up a mailing list for those interested
in working on the project, but it's been awfully quiet.  One person did
send in (to me personally) a list of books yesterday, and I have my own
list, based on a recent trip down to a bookshop that specializes in this
kind of literature - but I'd like for people to come forward and to offer
to handle specific parts of the project - like collecting questions and
becoming a point of collection of possible answers - and collecting names
of books and other materials, etc.  If anyone is interested, please get
in touch with me.  (I wish I could handle these things myself, but I just
don't have the time at present.)

Thanks.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body