From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: Challenge to Agnostics
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Date: 21 Dec 92 00:36:00 GMT

jcopelan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (The One and Only) writes:

>All this defining of Atheism and agnosticism has got my head spinning. Now, 
>when I was an agnostic I attempted to come up with a definition of "knowledge"
>because agnostics claim that knowledge about God is uncertain or unobtainable.
>It seems to me that one must define knowledge before making claims about it.

>I found that limiting knowledge to only that which is 100% certain to be rather
>like chasing one's shadow, unobtainable and of limited use. You end up with
>anything is possible but nothing is certain, and the only thing we know is that
>we know nothing. This is what leads people to make outrageous claims like 
>babies don't feel pain. This is just a philosophical dead end.

>So this counterintuitive concept left me wanting. It failed the common sense
>test. I think that any definition of knowledge must fit with what we can
>agree that we "know" prior to the definition. In other words, I think that the
>definition should be worked backwards from what we say we know. At least for
>examination purposes.

>What I was left with was a pragmatic, scientific, probabilistic definition of
>knowledge, somewhat like what  Simon Clippingdale(tm) has espoused here in 
>parts. So we don't have to qualify the fact that we know God doesn't exist
>because it doesn't have to be 100%. How much of any of our knowledge is 100%?

>To make a long post short (too late), what I want to know from agnostics, or 
>anybody for that matter, is how do you define knowledge? To test your 
>definition, would you say we know any of the following to exist: black holes,
>God, quarks, atoms, electrons, etc...(don' forget our favorite, gravity).

Yes, knowledge is never absolute, it just has a probability of truth to the
owner of the knowledge. I am 100% sure of my own existence, and that other
than that and this beleif no other thing can be 100% certain. Just for the
record here is a run-down of my continuum:

Prob.   Beleif

100     My own Existence
100     Nothing else is 100% certain
99.9999 I have sight, hearing, smell, touch and taste available.
99.999  That my senses reasonably accurately relate to me the environment
99.999  The existence of my body, friends, car, house, and everywhere I've
        been. Insert theory of probability and theory of gravity here.
99.99   That Adolf Hitler existed, New York exists, and other things I see
        in reliable texts and communication mediums. You could probably
	insert the theory of evolution about here.
99.9    That St Paul existed, William shakespeare and those things which are
	pretty well accepted but minor bits of doubt hang if only due to
	long periods of time between now and then.
99      The existence of Jesus.
50      That Jesus did actually think he was the son of a god, and did most
        of the things attributed in the bible.
0.0001  That Jesus did any form of miracle, such as walk on water, resurrect
        Lazarus, or turn water into wine etc etc.
0.0001  That there is some form of deity that magically can do amazing
        things that we should worry about (ie either worship or defend
	against).
10^-10  That the judeo-christian God exists, and that Jesus is the way to
        heaven, and that a God would give a shit what we think of
	hime/her/they/it.


Jeff.