HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne)
Newsgroups: ont.general
Subject: Re: Is it anything known how much do get MPs and MPPs?
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:02:47 GMT
Followup-To: ont.general
Distribution: can
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Stephen White (sfwhite@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
> Hopefully, this would mean that people who really _want_ to govern, for
> reasons _other_ than money, would do it.  In my mind, these are exactly
> the sort of people who _should_ be governing.  In reality, of course,
> people are far too greedy.

Why would you want people with some sort of personal agenda running
the country?  Aren't they there to serve US,  fulfill OUR agendas?
What if their agenda was ego?  Or they are pushing for some new pogrom?

You'll have to excuse me if I want my Minister of Justice to be a
highly paid and capable lawyer and not some religious fanatic with
a law degree on a quest to stamp out soft-porn.

At least greed, if honest, is a motivation I can trust.

> I once had a lengthy debate with a friend of mine (who earns around $60K/yr)
> about this issue.  She maintained that a high salary is necessary to entice
> people to government positions.  I strongly disagree with this, of
> course, due to other radical political leanings.  ;)  In my opinion, no job
> in the world deserves more than 100K/yr (in 1993 dollars).  The only
> difference I can see between 100K/yr and 200K/yr is another Porsche,
> maybe a condo or two.  Maybe if people could part with just a miniscule
> fraction of that greed, places like Ethiopia and Bangladesh wouldn't be such
> a mess.

Why do you limit it to 100K?  Poverty is ~20, if you truly believed in
what you are espousing here you would be using this as a limit.  The
only difference between poverty level and ANY higher salary is of life
style.

Obviously you're almost as greedy as the rest of us.

> That's another discussion, though.

Yes, and it's a rather inane one at that.

Rob.
--
Robert A. Osborne   ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert or robert@isgtec.com
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF])
Subject: Re: Consumer advice needed
Organization: Math Faculty Computing Facility, University of Waterloo, Canada
Distribution: ont
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:55:31 GMT

wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne Smith) writes:
>mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF]) writes:
>>
>>This all suggests that the place I bought it sent someone across the border
>>who bought it, and brought it back here to sell it to someone cheap.
>
>There have been stories on the evening news about small hole-in-the-wall
>retail stores that manage to obtain brand-name products from "authorized
>retailers", usually from the states.  Sounds like you got an American product.
>You should have just bought it from the states anyways, that way you could
>take it back no problems.  Do the instructions come in French?

Nope.  I'm pretty sure it's American after talking to some people here.
I just want to know if what they did is legal, and whether or not I'm entitled
to full warranty service.
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: nordgraf@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (John Dorn)
Subject: RE:returning an opened CD
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Distribution: ont
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:56:43 GMT

The distributor of the CD (BMG of Scarboro) was kind enough to accept
the original CD back in exchange for a set of equal value.
A & A was not much help.  So I will not be buying there anymore. 
It sounds like HMV is a better store to deal with.
Thanks for the replys.
regards
john Dorn
.


Newsgroups: ont.general,can.general
From: mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF])
Subject: Re: Consumer advice needed
Organization: Math Faculty Computing Facility, University of Waterloo, Canada
Distribution: can
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:41:50 GMT

javery@bnr.ca writes:
>jwaustin@bcars182.UUCP (John Austin) writes:
>|>mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF]) writes:
>|> |> 3) there is no "CSA approved" sticker anyplace on it
>|> 
>|> I think it's illegal to sell electrically operated equipment that has
>|> not been
>|> approved for use in Canada. 
>|> 
>Well, let me get my two cents in on this thread.  I think that if a product has
>Underwriter's Lab approval (look for a sticker that says UL instead of CSA) it
>is good enough to hook up to your electric system, but, check with your local
>electric supplier, as I might not have any idea what I am talking about.  UL
>is the CSA of the States (more or less).

Many expensive phone calls later...

I spoke to the CSA already today to find out about this.  They said it's
illegal for anyone to sell or use appliances that are not CSA approved.
Such things should be reported to Ontario Hydro's inspectors, and they
can prosecute under the Power Corporations Act.

Since my inquiries have revealed that selling "grey market" stuff is
essentially legal, this is about the only thing the retailer did that
was actually illegal.  (He also said that the manufacturer's warranty would
be honoured which is false.  I could complain about that, but it would mean
travelling to small claims court in Toronto, which is inconvenient at best
during a school term.)  The Ministry of Consumer and Corporate Affairs says
they are trying to get laws against it in place, but haven't done so yet.
From: jgp@ee.rochester.edu (Jim Prescott)
Newsgroups: ont.general
Subject: Re: Returning a CD for exchange or credit?
Date: 8 Jan 93 18:07:04 GMT
Distribution: ont
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science

In <1993Jan8.152302.29736@bmerh85.bnr.ca> paynter@bnr.ca (Stuart Paynter)
>In <C0JHE1.KE1@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>, nordgraf@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (John Dorn)
>|> A & A turned me down because: 
>|> 2.  They could not accept it back because it violated the copyright laws.   
>Reason 2 makes sense if you had opened the CD and taped it, then returned
>it.  .... Since the
>record store cannot verify that no copies of the CD have been made, they
>cannot accept it unless it has a defect.

Do Canadian stores really have an active responsibility to enforce copyright
law?  My guess would be that the store just makes a vague reference to a law
to avoid telling people that store policy is to assume all customers are
thieves.  While such a policy is within their rights it is cowardly for them
to put the blame on "the law".
-- 
Jim Prescott - Systems Staff	jgp@ee.rochester.edu	rutgers!ur-valhalla!jgp
College of Engineering and Applied Science, University of Rochester, NY
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: kinch@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Dave Kinchlea)
Subject: Re: Returning a CD for exchange or credit?
Reply-To: kinch@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca
Organization: Heart Valve Group, John P. Robarts Research Institiute, London, Ont. Canada
Distribution: ont
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:43:40 GMT

In article <C0JHE1.KE1@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>, nordgraf@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (John Dorn) writes:
|> I bought my wife a CD collector's set titled "Elvis Presley's Gold 
|> Collection" for $50 from A&A Records.
|>  
|> She tells me it is a really bad CD because it has every obscure 
|> song he recorded and not what you would call "Gold" songs.  Most songs 
|> are of poor quality because they are taken from poor quality masters
|> and some of his films.
|>  
|> I tried to return it for credit at A & A on the basis that the songs
|> are not what one could consider gold tunes (those that sold over a
|> million copies) and because of the poor quality of the recordings.
|>  
|> A & A turned me down because: 
|> 1.  That she should have looked at the titles of the songs 
|>     before making the decision to open the package. 
|> 2.  They could not accept it back because it violated the copy-
|>     right laws.   
|>     
|> Reason 1 makes some sense. Reason 2 does not. 
|>  
|> I beleive that I am justified in returning the CD's and feel that I
|> got "hosed" for $50.
|>  
|> Has anybody had a similar experience or would like to make any comments?
|>  
|> P.S. No we did not make a tape copy of the CD.


I believe that A&A are justified in refusing the return. I think that
reason #1 is COMPLETELY valid and sufficient in and of itself to
refuse to take it back  --Caveat Emptor.  So is #2 for that
matter. Just because you SAY you haven't made a tape copy doesn't mean
squat, the fact that you opened it means that it is entirely within
the realm of possibilities that you did. It would be impossible for
A&A to prove to their distributers that you didn't make a copy.

Sorry but you will find no sympathy from me on this one.

cheerskinch
-- 
Dave Kinchlea            
email:	 	kinch@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca
Snail-mail:	System Administrator/Research Programmer
		John P. Robarts Research Institute.
		P.O. Box 5015,
		100 Perth Drive,
		London, Ont, Canada
		N6A 5K8
A Real Live Voice: (519)-663-5777-x4406

".... 2 to the power 759 million to 1 and falling ..." HHGTG
Newsgroups: ont.general,can.general
From: clewis@bcarh1d7.bnr.ca (Chris Lewis)
Subject: Re: Consumer advice needed
Organization: Bell Northern Research
Distribution: can
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:46:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.141340.3301@micor.ocunix.on.ca> panter@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Bill Panter) writes:
|In article <1993Jan7.174612.18720@bcars6a8.bnr.ca> clewis@bcarh1d7.bnr.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:
|>In article <C0GC9r.JFH@math.uwaterloo.ca> mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF]) writes:
|>
|>>I spoke to the CSA already today to find out about this.  They said it's
|>>illegal for anyone to sell or use appliances that are not CSA approved.
|>>Such things should be reported to Ontario Hydro's inspectors, and they
|>>can prosecute under the Power Corporations Act.

|>[If necessary, you can protect yourself from the "use" part by having a
|>Hydro inspector approve it.]

| [stuff deleted]>
|>On the other hand, there are laws that impose legal minimum warrantees on
|>the seller.  That is another approach you can take - if you can demonstrate
|>that the equipment is defective.

|The question then becomes, does the lack of CSA approval constitute a defect?
|If it does, then the cost of getting that approval should be covered under the
|legal minimum warranty. (Hmmmm, I think I can see somebody's profit margin
|going up in smoke!)

Yup.  However, this approach should be taken cautiously - otherwise, Murray might
end up with a Hydro-approved VCR that doesn't work right - so this approach should
emphasize that the VCR is broken too.  Ie: two defects.

Alternately, if the inspectors get into the act and start making noises
about charging the seller, the seller may attempt to avoid prosecution by having the
approvals done, or by recalling all of the merchandise.  If the seller is
actually convicted, I would imagine that part of the penalty would also
include imposed efforts to rectify the situation.

Murray has lots of ammunition.  He can either threaten to sic the inspectors
unless the merchandise is taken back (or repaired AND approved) OR go
the small claims route on the statutory warrantee/warrantee misrepresentation
AND missing approval.  Or, just sic Hydro on 'em.

The first is slightly risky - may constitute blackmail and get Murray into
trouble (he becomes somewhat of an accessory if he uses the situation to
his advantage without squealing to the cops).  The second costs money and time
and is painful.  The third may take a while, but he'll get some fun out of it -
besides, somebody else does all the work and it doesn't cost him anything.
Newsgroups: ont.general,can.general
From: panter@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Bill Panter)
Subject: Re: Consumer advice needed
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC., Orleans (Ont)
Distribution: can
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:13:40 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.174612.18720@bcars6a8.bnr.ca> clewis@bcarh1d7.bnr.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:
>In article <C0GC9r.JFH@math.uwaterloo.ca> mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF]) writes:
>
>>I spoke to the CSA already today to find out about this.  They said it's
>>illegal for anyone to sell or use appliances that are not CSA approved.
>>Such things should be reported to Ontario Hydro's inspectors, and they
>>can prosecute under the Power Corporations Act.
>
>[If necessary, you can protect yourself from the "use" part by having a
>Hydro inspector approve it.]
>
 [stuff deleted]>
>On the other hand, there are laws that impose legal minimum warrantees on
>the seller.  That is another approach you can take - if you can demonstrate
>that the equipment is defective.

The question then becomes, does the lack of CSA approval constitute a defect?
If it does, then the cost of getting that approval should be covered under the
legal minimum warranty. (Hmmmm, I think I can see somebody's profit margin
going up in smoke!)

Bill
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: landolt@nexus.yorku.ca (Paul Landolt)
Subject: Re: Consumer advice needed
Organization: York University
Distribution: ont
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:32:59 GMT

mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF]) writes:

>I bought myself a VCR on Boxing Day in Toronto, which I now find may need
>some service because on playback the audio's not always that great.
[...]
>1) there was no warranty card in the box
[...]
>This all suggests that the place I bought it sent someone across the border
>who bought it, and brought it back here to sell it to someone cheap.

>-- Murray S. Kucherawy --

If you still have the original receipt from the purchase (or, if you paid by
credit card, the credit slip _or_ your monthly statement), then that should
be a good proof of purchase.

(I'm no lawyer, but) IMO, if you purcahse a good from a store, it is the
responsibility of the store to ensure that the product _does_ work, and that
the buyer receives 'reasonable use' of the product (ie, it doesn't die after 3
hours' use)

Before you phone up the store and ask if you can bring your broken VCR in for
repair or replacement (thus giving them a chance to refuse), phone them up
(don't go in person) and enquire into buying a VCR. 'What is your return
policy?'  'Oh, so if I bought the VCR here and it doesn't work (to my
satisfion), then I can bring it back and you'll fix it or replace it?'. 'Can
I get a refund, or is it exchange only?'

Use one of those 'innocent, eager, but sceptical' consumer voices (the one
that many people have when they buy electronics ;) ), and when they say 
what you want to hear, Then bring the VCR back.

It all depends on how reputable you think the dealer is. I mean, if they are
willing to scam you, then I would be reulcutant to extend my trust too far.
Get the name of the sales rep you are talking to (better yet, talk to the
manager). Record the conversation if you want (I'm not sure about the legal
implications of that one).

Better yet, try showing up in person.  When they say that they will repair,
replace, or refund any of the products, smile and say "wonderful, I have 
this VCR that I bought from you not 2 weeks ago, and it's not working"

Hope this helps

-- 
J. Paul Landolt - Guest of:         | If it ain't broke, don't fix it...
York University - Toronto, Canaidia | ...unless you're a consultant  
+1 416 736 5257                     | ----------------------------------
InterNet: landolt@nexus.yorku.ca    | My opinions. All mine. So sue me.
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF])
Subject: Re: Consumer advice needed
Organization: Math Faculty Computing Facility, University of Waterloo, Canada
Distribution: ont
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:13:02 GMT

fwbent@watmsg.uwaterloo.ca (Fred Bent) writes:
>Approval from who?

The CSA.

>Well, if you look at some of the advetising for Sony products (Zellers I think)
>they have Sony America products for sale.  In the flyer they have some small
>print stating "These products are not covered by Sony of Canada warranty, and
>Zellers will provide warranty service."
>
>Cause Sony Canada will NOT provide warranty service. So I don't agree that
>it is necessarily illegal to sell

The two things that made it illegal are: (1) the salesman told me the Sony
warranty *was* valid, and (2) it's illegal to sell any appliance in Canada
that does not have CSA approval.  I have witnesses to the former and a
legal citation for the latter.
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne Smith)
Subject: Re: Consumer advice needed
Organization: The John P. Robarts Research Institute, London, Ontario
Distribution: ont
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:38:46 GMT

In article <C0Ezxx.2CJ@math.uwaterloo.ca> mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF]) writes:
>
>This all suggests that the place I bought it sent someone across the border
>who bought it, and brought it back here to sell it to someone cheap.

There have been stories on the evening news about small hole-in-the-wall
retail stores that manage to obtain brand-name products from "authorized
retailers", usually from the states.  Sounds like you got an American product.
You should have just bought it from the states anyways, that way you could
take it back no problems.  Do the instructions come in French?
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: landolt@nexus.yorku.ca (Paul Landolt)
Subject: Paradox 3.5 Training courses
Originator: landolt@nexus.yorku.ca
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Distribution: ont
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 16:06:43 GMT


I have been named "DbaseMeister" for the people I am working with. I
am required to write a Database (or, convert it from a mainframe, but that's
a different store) program in native Paradox (3.5). I have never programmed
in a Database language (actually, I have successfully avoided it for years)
but I'm afraid thatI cannot any longer.

Can anyone reccommend a company that will provide training on how to program
using Paradox's PAL language?

In Toronto or the surrounding area would be helpful.

thanks in advance





-- 
J. Paul Landolt - Guest of:         | If it ain't broke, don't fix it...
York University - Toronto, Canaidia | ...unless you're a consultant  
+1 416 736 5257                     | ----------------------------------
InterNet: landolt@nexus.yorku.ca    | My opinions. All mine. So sue me.
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: culhane@vis.toronto.edu (Sean Culhane)
Subject: Re: Returning a CD for exchange or credit?
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Distribution: ont
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:42:51 GMT

georgen@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (G. Ng) writes:

>From what my experience, most CD stores won't take back CDs unless they're
>damaged.

>The one exception to this is HMV.  Whether or not the CD you bought (and
>opened) from HMV is damaged, if you feel it isn't to your liking you can
>return it and get a full refund.  (They do ask you why you're returning it)

Yes ... HMV will even exchange/refund *videos*.  If you have the reciept,
you can get a full refund ... with no reciept, you can still exchange it 
for another product.  I returned a video after the holidays because the 
quality of the recording was terrible, and they said "No problem".

-- Sean.
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: fwbent@watmsg.uwaterloo.ca (Fred Bent)
Subject: Re: Consumer advice needed
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: ont
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:26:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.175020.14827@bnr.ca> jwaustin@bcars182.UUCP (John Austin) writes:
>In article <C0Ezxx.2CJ@math.uwaterloo.ca>, mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. 
>|> 3) there is no "CSA approved" sticker anyplace on it
>...
>|> 
>|> I guess my question is: What can I do to get warranty service, given that I
>|> bought the unit in good faith?  Is the retailer responsible for providing
>|> the full warranty service?  Is he guilty of any crime?  Am I entitled to
>|> anything like a full refund?  What are my options?
>
>I think it's illegal to sell electrically operated equipment that has not been
>approved for use in Canada. (This may have fallen by the wayside as a result of

Approval from who?

Well,  if you look at some of the advetising for Sony products (Zellers I think)
they have Sony America products for sale.  In the flyer they have some small
print stating "These products are not covered by Sony of Canada warranty, and
Zellers will provide warranty service."

Cause Sony Canada will NOT provide warranty service. So I don't agree that
it is necessarily illegal to sell



>Muldoon and Company tricking the Americans into Free Trade.) I hope you kept all
>of the packaging and receipts. I think you can check with your local Hydro.
>
>You may not get any satisfaction but you may put the clowns out of business.

---
Fred Bent
fwbent@plg.uwaterloo.ca
Newsgroups: ont.general,uw.general,ut.general,uwo,.general
From: nnagid@napier.waterloo.edu (Neil Nagid)
Subject: Re: ALLOSTOP INFO WANTED
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: ont
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:20:42 GMT


ALLO STOP has offices in major cities, among them TO. Their phone number is in
the directory information, and if you ask them they'll send you a bunch of
detailed information.
From: jim@sco.COM (Jim Sullivan)
Newsgroups: ont.general
Subject: Re: Consumer advice needed
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:43:10 GMT
Distribution: ont
Organization: SCO Canada, Inc.

mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF]) writes:
>I bought myself a VCR on Boxing Day in Toronto, which I now find may need
>some service because on playback the audio's not always that great.  Normally
>this isn't something I need to post about, but a number of things strike me
>funny:
>
>1) there was no warranty card in the box; there was a description of
>   the warranty bearing an American address, but no card to fill in or
>   send anyplace
>2) the serial number sticker is not in the usual place, nor is it the
>   usual form (6 digits preceeded by "A", white-on-black; this one has
>   a 5-digit number only, black-on-white)
>3) there is no "CSA approved" sticker anyplace on it
>
>This all suggests that the place I bought it sent someone across the border
>who bought it, and brought it back here to sell it to someone cheap.

All this discussion illustrates the problems Canadian companies have with
the grey market.  Unauthorized retailers, either wittingly (?) or unwittingly
sell products that have been purchased through non-canadian channels at
prices below what authorized resellers can sell at.  This results in
consumers purchasing products that they think is warranteed by the company
but is, in fact, not.

I believe that Sony Canada is agressive about this.  I remember reading
the fine print on one of the electronic chains ads that stated that the
Sony products offered by them were not covered by Sony Canada.  I know that
when I bought my camera (a Nikon), Nikon Canada extended the warranty
a year because I bought from an authorized reseller.

I guess that there is no such thing as a free lunch, you get what you pay
for.  There's a latin term for this, but I didn't study latin :-)
-- 
Jim Sullivan				
SCO Canada, Inc. Toronto, Ontario	 "Help, I'm white and I can't get down"
jim@sco.com, ...!uunet!scocan!jim	
416 922 1937 (8397 for fax)	 	
Newsgroups: ont.general,uw.general,ut.general,uwo,.general
From: hal@nexus.yorku.ca (Harvey Haldorson)
Subject: Re: ALLOSTOP INFO WANTED
Organization: York University
Distribution: ont
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 20:18:23 GMT

nnagid@napier.waterloo.edu (Neil Nagid) writes:


|ALLO STOP has offices in major cities, among them TO. Their phone number is in
|the directory information, and if you ask them they'll send you a bunch of
|detailed information.

Except in English Canada they are known as "Auto Stop", and are listed
as such in the phone book...
Newsgroups: ont.general