HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: david@elwood.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: nelsons
Date: 29 Dec 92 17:26:53 GMT

In article <4447@unisql.UUCP>, wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec23.035220.25160@cs.mun.ca> robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Robin Collier) writes:
|> >Well, I know I have heard several ways of getting out of a full nelson, but I
|> >was recenctly told by Nick Cerio at a seminar that if someone actually gets 
|> >you in a full nelson, there is no way out of it.  He said that all effective
|> 
|> 	I've had success escaping from a nelson by putting my palms on my 
|> forehead and straightening my back, legs, and arms at the same time.

But have you ever escaped from a full nelson where the person
applying it meant business?  Someone who really means business
will apply in such a way that you are on the verge of getting
your neck broken.  A false move will break your neck.
I do not see how you can put your palms
on your forehead if the FN is applied in that way.  I do not
even see how you can even touch your head.
-- 
David Johnson
XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
david@xlnt.com
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Agreed: rec.martial-arts hierarchy
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:26:53 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <XHW=gy=@engin.umich.edu> ftit@ob.engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) writes:
>
>In article <BzJIMI.JHJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
>|
>|I think we should really break up this group.  martial arts as a term is
>|so general.  hapkido, judo, 200 types of karate, gun-fu, PCP-fu.. :)
>|
>|This is just a little suggestion, no need to flame. :)
>|
>|rec.martial-arts.hapkido  -  Hapkido discussions
>|                 judo     -  Judo, obviously..
>|                 karate   -  all styles of karate..
>|                 hype     -  martial-art bullshit like super ninjas and 
>|                             catching bullets. :)
>|                 western  -  Western martial arts.. knives, guns,
>|                             general non-Asian combat
>|                 misc     -   Anything else.
>|
>
>                  celtic   -  Anything requiring the wearing of kilts
>                              and teaching of Death Touches (tm)

Nae be talkin aboot the Death Touch, laddie. Nae the Haggis o' Doom,
either!

Stephen O'Gombosi
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Thai kickboxing
Date: 03 Jan 93 03:30:34 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Distribution: usa


(mary)
  >>Personally, I don't have a lot of respect for people who expect a 
  >>martial art to save them from the consequences of their own stupidity
  
(bley)
  >(neither does anybody else here.  I'm not sure how it applies to this
  >discussion, though...) 


It doesn't.  Mary has created a nonrelated situation out of a simple
question I asked (and have since regretted asking).  

Just curious: when a newcomer posts a question to this newsgroup, is it 
normal procedure for someone like Mary to come out, guns blazing, and pull 
this kind of stunt?  

Someone should post a disclaimer at the top of the newsgroup:  
WARNING--this newsgroup has the following sacred cows that are not to be 
touched.  
WARNING--the following "frequent posters" in this newsgroup have axes 
to grind.



/(mary)
/Doing a wheel kick on a gravel parking lot when you've had a couple of 
/beers is exactly the same sort of thing.  You go and get yourself 
/stupid with alcohol to begin with, and then you use a completely 
/inappropriate technique for the situation.  

'Get yourself stupid'?  You wouldn't be a religious fundamentalist, or
something like that, would you Mary?  You have a towering dislike for 
alcohol, and a stubborn insistence that whatever happens to me after I
have had three beers must be my fault (I guess I must have asked to 
be mugged).



/(mary)
/Hmm, I wonder if there's a pattern here...

The only pattern here is your habit of consistent overreaction to the
word 'alcohol'.




(bley)
  >Right.  Exactly.  TKD is a wrench.  Bob needs a hammer.  He could learn,
  >with practice, to drive nails with the wrench, but it wouldn't make any
  >sense to do that when there are perfectly good hammers available.

/(mary)
/Your argument does not follow from mine.  I was talking about techniques; 
/you are talking about an entire art.  It is most certainly not the case 
/that "TKD is a wrench."  TKD is a toolbox, and you picked up the wrench
/when you should have chosen the hammer.

Fine.  However, in the TKD toolbox, the wrench is huge, well built and
intricate--and a little glitzy.  The only hammer included is a lot smaller, 
and I didn't get as much experience with it as I wanted (due to all the
training I got using this snazzy wrench).  So now I'm looking for another
toolbox with harder, more basic tools that work together better than
the TKD tools do.
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:51:21 GMT
	<1gr89tINN8gd@pith.uoregon.edu> <1992Dec18.195115.7957@reed.edu>
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: todd@reed.edu's message of 18 Dec 92 19:51:15 GMT


In article <1992Dec18.195115.7957@reed.edu> todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner) writes:

   In article <1gr89tINN8gd@pith.uoregon.edu> toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (J. Toman) writes:
   >If "rely on pain for effectiveness" means that you get broken if you
   >don't comply with the technique, then what doesn't rely on pain ?
   >Every strike or lock I can think of does.

   Many techniques do rely on pain for their effectiveness, but I can think of
   quite a few which don't. For example:

[snip]

   2) Strikes: All sorts of strikes to the neck and throat interfere with the
      ability of nerve impulses to get from A to B, the passage of air and/or
      blood, etc. Some also send the heart into fibrillation directly and do a
      variety of other things which are debilitating but have nothing to do with
      pain. Breaking off the xyphoid process, breaking the knee or ankle,
      rupturing spleen, bladder, or liver all cause potentially werewolf-stopping
      damage through means other than pain. 


Or knocking the attacker down/away/through the wall/off a cliff.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
From: alph@wsinfo03.win.tue.nl (G.J.W. Hagenaars)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Stupid Religious Views
Date: 23 Dec 92 12:15:33 GMT
Reply-To: alph@win.tue.nl

wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:

% In article <1992Dec22.195153.2593@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
% > Aikido and many kenjutsu systems have significant Shinto components. 

% 	What are the Shinto components of aikido?

% 	Anyway, don't y'all know that there's only _one_ true god and
% *that's* Ghu, the Great ?  Really...

Is She the one for Greenoch?

% 								W.rat

\Alph
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Stupid Religious Views
Date: 23 Dec 92 22:46:48 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec23.121328.13687@crash> jfrost@crash.cts.com (Julian Frost) writes:
>Research your Aikido history!!  Morihei Ueshiba, the Founder of Aikido
>was a devout believer in Shinto.  He later followed Deguchi Onnisaburo

	As you note, he later converted to Omotokyo.  But really, all that
says is that Ueshiba was at one time a follower of Shinto.  I don't see
anything peculiarly Shinto in Aikido.  What parts of Aikido are explicitly
Xref: sparky rec.martial-arts:16055 soc.culture.pakistan:18573
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: The Old Man Had Timing
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:31:35 GMT
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: doug@UC780.UMD.EDU's message of 18 Dec 92 21:20:54 GMT


In article <1992Dec18.212054.13655@socrates.umd.edu> doug@UC780.UMD.EDU (Deac Moo of the UGC) writes:


   In article <1992Dec18.104506.803@hls.com>, silatman@hls.com writes:
   >
   >               THE OLD MAN HAD TIMING!
   >               by Khalid Khan.

   [ much of Khan's post snipped ]

   > We have all heard
   >of stories where a brash young "master" comes out
   >to challenge a 90 year old practitioner. The 90 year old
   >man sits calmly drinking his sake tea and admiring
   >the beautiful morning. The brash young man charges
   >the 90 year old master with all the power and speed
   >of his youth, and a split second later...the young man
   >is dead. The 90 year old master has moved only slightly,
   >not even fast, and in one simple move has cut 
   >the young challenger with his sword, and then the old master
   >resumes drinking his morning tea. So what is the important
   >point here?
   >
   >   Timing!

   I thought the saying was "Experience and Treachery <sp> beat Youth
   and Skill." Or something like that. 

   Of course, that might be next weeks Parable :)


"Old age and treachery will overcome youth and determination every time."

Don't ask me who said it though.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: bear hug variation
Date: 22 Dec 92 14:59:25 GMT
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: jchristian@desire.wright.edu's message of 19 Dec 92 22:55:10 GMT


In article <1992Dec19.175511.6289@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:

   Okay, I have a question.

   Bear hug from behind, trapping arms by the sides.  Normally not a big problem,
   right?  But our group questioned the actual attack ("Why the hell would someone
   attack you like this?") and ended up with a variation that is interesting.

   Bear hug from behind, trapping arms by the sides.  Attacker has lifted you into
   the air; 

[snip]

   (1)  Dropping your weight, slamming their face with the back of your head, and
   reaching their hands with yours are all nullified (you're in the air, their
   head is protected, and your arms are trapped just below the elbow).

But how do you drop your weight?  This is the thing that made me say, "Oooh,
scary" when I read your description in the first place...because my favorite
escapes all depend on dropping my weight.  And I can't see how to drop my
weight, if I'm not partially supporting it to begin with.

Good question, but no answers here, sorry.  
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Subject: Re: heavy bags
Keywords: heavy bags
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:38:57 GMT

In article <24410@alice.att.com> garry@alice.UUCP () writes:
>In article <8956@unix386.Convergent.COM> jeff@unix386.Convergent.COM (Jeff Beckmann) writes:

[Stuff about how to train with a heavy bag deleted.]

I just wanted to recommend a book I recently bought:

"A Guide to Martial Arts Training with Equipment", by Dan Inosanto.

Almost half the book covers various heavy-bag routines, including
punches, elbow strikes, kicks, two-person routines, etc, and each
routine includes photos of how the covered techniques could be used in
a fight.  I'm no martial artist (I've been about to start MA training
Real Soon Now for almost two years), and the book may not contain
anything that a seasoned MA-er doesn't already know, but I found it
useful.

It's $15 for about 150 pages, paperback, large format, lots of photos.
It also includes sections on focus mits, foam shields, and other
instruments of therapy (which, incidentally, is why I got my 80-lb
bag).

It's also liberally sprinkled with Bruce Lee iconography, but
considering that it's a part of "The Jeet Kune Do Series", that's not
too surprising.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@tti.com to you!)
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave)
Subject: Re: Agreed: rec.martial-arts hierarchy
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:05:35 GMT
Reply-To: stave@apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA

In article <BzJIMI.JHJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
|> 
|> I think we should really break up this group.  martial arts as a term is
|> so general.  hapkido, judo, 200 types of karate, gun-fu, PCP-fu.. :)
[example hierarchy deleted]
|> I say we do it! :)  Let's get this baby sorted out so it's more
|> efficiently read..

I say we don't.  The cross-polination that has occurred so far has
been the real (IMO) strength of this newsgroup.  Efficently read?
We don't really have that much traffic.

Joel Stave
stave@apollo.hp.com
From: gee@col.hp.com (Ken Gee)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido in DC (directions, specific info needed)
Date: 24 Dec 1992 15:27:44 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: rs11.col.hp.com

	Saotome Sensei traditionally holds Winter camp with Ikeda Sensei
between Christmas and New Year's at the DC dojo.  It should be going on while
you're in town, so regular classes are probably superceded.  I would check
out attending Winter camp while you are there.

Ken
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: poor technique
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:04:04 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <JON.92Dec29120826@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
>This discussion arose when you said that the participants in karate
>tournaments "pretend" to hit.  You implied that techniques thrown in
>karate tournaments are somehow less than real.  That runs contrary to

	I'm really not saying what I mean very well.  Bear with me while 
I try again.

	A tournament _must_ be less than realistic, or it would be 
actual combat and not a tournament at all.  There are different approaches
to make this unreality happen.  In judo we allow only a subset of possible
techniques and we pad the ground and practice falling so that we can do
that safe subset of techniques at full speed without injuring each other.
Where I'm confused about karate tournaments is that since there _is_ no
safe subset of techniques - what's a painless way to strike someone? - how
can you use karate techniques in this situation without "watering them down",
that is, NOT executing them at full power and speed?  

	Your answer seems to be that my mistake is to believe them when they
say "no contact", and that irregardless of the rules they really do hit each
other with full power blows...
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Re: where to buy a CLUB for my car
Date: 21 Dec 92 22:27:52 GMT
    <1992Dec18.213931.12473@ms.uky.edu> <14148@pogo.wv.tek.com>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <14148@pogo.wv.tek.com> roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.213931.12473@ms.uky.edu> cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans) writes:
>>Next California will outlaw the practice of martial arts.
> 
>   If that happens maybe they can spend their resulting
>   freetime learning how to drive in SNOW and ICE.  Then 
>   when they move to Oregon they won't clog up all the 
>   roads during the winter storms. :-)
>
>   I just went thru an utterly crazy commute home last
>   week during our first big snow.  I have never seen the
>   numbers of clueless winter drivers we now seem to have
>   in Oregon.  
>
>   BTW This has little or no MA content. In fact what I
>   really want to know is could Hal Roach drive in snow.
>
Bruce Lee could drive in snow and kick Hal Roach's ass (at the
same time), as long as Hal didn't unload on him with a little 
jokedo.

Charles Yeomans
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: eng10001@nusunix1.nus.sg (MOEY WENG SENG)
Subject: Re: Help on resuming training
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:31:56 GMT

	Tell you what. Try at least to get yourself fit first by running
(gradually increasing the distances), doing pushups and the rest of the
usual exercises. After that, practice what you can remember in front of
a full length mirror to correct yourself. Try to seek the help of
someone who does remember. After all, you don't want to be seen
floundering in the class, do you?  
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mallon@hsi.com (Dan Mallon-Kraft)
Subject: Re: group for judo?
Organization: 3M Health Information Systems, Wallingford, CT
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:41:24 GMT

In article <4398@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
<In article <ZARR.92Dec17004711@lk-hp-14.hut.fi> zarr@lk-hp-14.hut.fi (Mari (Black Panther) Sepp{) writes:
<>so much other stuff to do that I only choose the articles that have judo in
<>their subject-line to read.  I don't usually have the time (like right 
<
<	Your loss, I think.  I get an awful lot out of reading discussions
<about other arts, and adding my own perspective.  And vice-versa.

Three years ago (has it been that long?) when this newsgroup was first
created, I knew next to nothing about arts other than Judo.  I'm by no means
an expert in any art (still), but at least when someone talks about another
art, I'm know *something* about it.  Also, I've considered taking a look
at other arts to see what Judo lacks and how I can minimize my loses due
to those lackings.

I did a little woodworking yesterday and played a bit with the six foot
pole.  It reaffirmed the desire to learn some bo or jodo, but it seems I'm
pretty far away from anyone who teaches either  :-(

<	I disagree with seperate groups for judo or any other art because
<I don't think there's sufficient volume in any one branch and because
<the sharing of ideas is too valuable to lose.

The exclusively Judo contributions are particularly sporadic.  A new group
could have 40 postings one day and none for a week.  Doesn't really warrant
a new group in my opinion.

Dan
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: The Old Man Had Timing
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:13:17 GMT

Now now folks, leave Khalid be.  It's only a story, after all, and I think
he should be allowed his opinions.  You never know, he may be right.

	-Andy V.
From: actize@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Technical Advise Sought
Date: 25 Dec 1992 21:46:04 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Thank you wrestling people, etc. for the description of techniques concerning 
bear-hugs, etc.  How do you deal with this type of attack ?

The attacker has good mobility on the floor.  He/She constantly circles the 
attackee.  A strike or grab is seldom executed.  The attacker ki-hai (did I 
spell that right ??) a lot.  The attacker constantly circles looking for a weak
point to attack.  
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: More boring ki/qi/chi & science
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 14:53:17 GMT

In article <75879@apple.apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
>In the case of qi I have yet to see a theory of qi that made any
>predictions that could be confirmed or disconfirmed. In terms
>of philosophy of science that means that so far there is nothing 
>to investigate.

	In my experience, I have seen lots of examples of qi based theories
with predictive qualities. What do you think underlies Eastern concepts of
diet & medicine?
	Why have you overlooked such an obvious model?
	I have no experience with *ANY* strange mystical powers which many
people seem to associate with qi. But I have grown up an environment where qi
was the model for understanding health and diet - i.e. if you feel like THIS,
then this class of foods will help the condition, while THAT class of foods
will make it worse. The model was pretty consistently accurate.

	
> That doesn't mean to me that there is no such
>thing as qi, but it does mean that I'm not going to complain 
>about science being blinkered or prejudiced because it doesn't
>investigate qi, at least until I'm ready to formulate a
>description that it *can* investigate.

	An example has been given. Another commonly mentioned example is
acupuncture - I have no idea what kind of research has been done on it, but it
is was a distinctly qi based model, with strong predictive value. As I
understand it, acupuncture methods are often absorbed, but the original
theoretical model is discarded, in favor of some vague (and insufficient)
model which uses more familiar terminology and structures.

>thing as qi, but it does mean that I'm not going to complain 
>about science being blinkered or prejudiced because it doesn't

	You see, you still don't see the focal point of my arguments. You are
still defending this abstract ideal of SCIENCE, when my argument rests on how
you can't seperate science from the scientists, and that scientists (like
other people) suffer from bias, but they can use the concepts and language of
science to mask their own biases.
	We also are arguing towards different goals - the rest of the
discussion seems to revolve around qi, whereas I've kind of wandered into a
discussion about subjectivity and reason, with qi as a prime example.

	I would characterise my disagreement as about the role of objectivity.
I feel that, in general, people are biased and subjective - and that a rigorous
external methodology like the scientific method cannot guarantee objectivity:
at some point, assumptions must be introduced into the system from it's human
users.
	Khan throws in his evangelical Islam, I throw in my Zen/Taoist spiel on
revealing subjectivity, and the difference between theory and practice.

	Okay, that's all I'll say - this discussion doesn't belong here anyway.
These qi discussions are always so long winded...

	Stephen
--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: gperkins@netcom.com (Glen C. Perkins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Agreed: rec.martial-arts hierarchy
Date: 24 Dec 92 19:15:15 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)


Put me down as a definite no. I certainly enjoy the discussions
of arts I've never tried and I'd join with what sounds like the
majority of you in just saying NO.

I have a suggestion that might help. Please be careful and specific
in your choice of subject headers. If we included subjects
such as ESCRIMA: one hand or two better?  whenever possible (and
often it's not possible) this might help those who only want to
read articles with TKD: in the subject. (cases where it is not really
possible to come up with a snappy little subject like that are
cases that would be tough to categorize if the rec.m-a group
were broken up anyway!)
-- 
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
|--- Glen C. Perkins ---|                                                   |
| <gperkins@netcom.com> |             "Don't forget, your mind              |
| Native Guide Software |              only *simulates* logic."             |
| Palo Alto, California |                                                   |
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts