From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Peace!
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 22:16:29 GMT

In article <CATHOLIC%92122011342210@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU> writes:
>One person wrote:
>>Steve, I don't want to be insulting either, but, only a
>>brain-dead conservative  would feel  threatened with  this "railroading"
>>evidence presented by Martin. I think Martin half-heartedly threw it out
>>there just to see if some "defender of the faith" would jump at it, beat
>>it to death, and claim victory for truth, justice and the Vatican way (I
>>do like this Martin Berry line:-)
>To which someone else responded:

Jim, I have no problem with you using my name.

>Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!  :-)))

Good movie!

>One basis we must start with is the position of trust. We must trust that
>the others on the list are spirit-filled people who are genuinely trying
>to follow the Lord as best they can. The message we hear, and the call we
>experience is different because of our upbringing, our experiences and
>the way the Lord speaks to us when we pray and reflect on the gospels.

My posting, ironic as it may have been, was prompted by precisely the assault
on trust that was being made.  It was suggested that someone might introduce
a topic or statement simply to bait certain others, not because they believed
what they said.  Now that does not seem to me to be authentic communication.
In fact such introduction of deceit undermines communication.  Knowing that
there are people out there, with whom I may agree or disagree, who do not want
to speak honestly and forthrightly about their differences, about what they
take to be true or false, about what they take to be facts, but would rather
deceive and lay traps designed to embarras, why should I take as true any
statement made here from now on.  I could take your post to be sincere.  However
now I know that people I have trusted, even in disagreement, to be speaking
honestly and forthrightly with me, even if at times they may have joked at
my expense, or others, may be actually very clever deceivers.  Why, any longer,
should I think your communications are sincere?  After all, the best deceivers
are those who don't show their hands.  You may say, "trust me because I tell
you I'm not deceiving you."  But of course that is self-referential.  Perhaps
the original sin was a lie, for you see what it does to the communication of
persons?  I do not mind irony.  After all, Christ, of whom I am no great
reflection, used it.  "Whatever power you have has been given to you from
above."  I don't mind jokes at my expense, or others.  But I do think communication and the word are sacred instruments of human and divine communication: in
the beginning was the Word, the Word was in God's presence, and the Word
was God.  The only words any of us share with each other are right here.  I have
in the past trusted, as I take many of you have, in each other and the honesty
that is a prerequisite for truly human communication.  I also take it
that deception is not irony, and is not a joke, except for those insider{
to whom it is addressed, but not for those deleiberately excluded from the
humor.  I take it that deception is destructive of the word.  So I also
take it that it is appropriate for those who hold the word dear to let those
who abuse it know what they have done, what seed they have introduced into
what appeared to be an honest, even if often heated and contentious, forum
for discussion.
Perhaps I have reacted the way I have done, precisely because this is the
season when the Word became flesh.
	
>
>If we find the style of others to be a problem, either try to see past
>the words used to discern the argument presented... or hit (fill in the
>appropriate key to delete a post in your software). There is no need to
>respond to every post on the list. Sometimes turning the other cheek
>means ignoring the provocative ("flame-bait") post and moving on to
>others on the list.

The words are the instruments in which the argument becomes incarnate.  Just
as you cannot look past the man Jesus Christ to see the Second Person of the
Trinity, I do not think you can look past the abuse made of the words.

The height of the deception introduced into the forum, was that it did not
come under the guise of "flame-bait", easily recognized by all.  It came in the
guise of truth, which is precisely its deception.

>I don't mean to lecture. Surely I have no right. I have just been
>bothered by the trend taken in some posts lately, and thought I should
>speak up before it becomes a problem.  Peace and all good, everyone!
>
>Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
>The American University
>Washington DC 20016-8019 USA

Peace, and Happy Advent.  May we all fall at the feet of the Word become
flesh.
John

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