HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 07:10:04 -0500
From:         mlove@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU
Subject:      Re: Info on Grad Public History programs
Comments: To: History <HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

I have heard that Wisconsin has a good program in public history.

Sharon D. Michalove
Assistant to the Chair for Undergraduate Affairs
Department of History, UIUC
309 Gregory Hall, 810 South Wright Street
Urbana, IL  61801
 217-333-4145
mlove@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu

********************************************************
See the kitten on the wall/Sporting with the leaves that fall
Wht intenseness of desire/In her upward eye of fire!
        	       	       	       	William Wordsworth
********************************************************
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:12:48 PDT
From:         "Don W." <webbd@CCVAX.CCS.CSUS.EDU>
Subject:      Interstellar cuisine
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

>> The lesson of the First Contact is "kill the space creatures as soon as they
>> enter the solar system"!
>>
>> Bob Rogers
>
> Shouldn't we see if they taste good first?  We might miss out on a real
>culinary treat.
>
>  Glenn Greene

Reminds me of the supposedly philanthropic aliens who appear
at the UN with a book in hand (tentacle?) titled "How to Serve
Man."  Turns out to be a cookbook.  Now why am I reminded of
that in an election year..?

Don W. (DonWebb@CSUS.EDU)
From: LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET (Lenny)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Columbus
Date: 13 Oct 92 04:06:40 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              12 Oct 1992 20:44:42 PDT from <webbd@CCVAX.CCS.CSUS.EDU>

"In sum, how much did Columbus personally change the course of history?"

Well, if he did not do it, someone else would have.  But someone else
DID NOT. That is the important point.  Columbus did it, and we owe him
respect and appreciation for his contribution, no matter what his motivation
was.

I saw the curator of Smithsonian's Columbus exhibit (an unfortunately
confused individual) on CNN this afternoon.  He compared the civilizations
of the Aztecs and Incas to that of Greece.  He showed us a picture of
a typical day in downtown Mexico City circa 1450.  Lots of dignified men
and women walking around in feather hats.  There were two pyramids in the
background.  Mister Curator didn't tell us what the pyramids were for!

The Aztecs were a stone age culture.  We tend to impute wisdom to them which
they did not have, or want.  Tomorrow I expect to learn that they invented
credit cards and light bulbs.  What they don't know is that the Soviets
actually did these things in 1927!



Lenny
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 09:37:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: 1790 census database

U.S. Population Census Data in electronic form:

Surely the Inter-University Consortium on Political and Social
Research at the University of Michigan has got these? They
seem to have bunches.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:25:33 -0400
From:         JFOX@RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU
Subject:      History Discussion
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU

Looking for a list where there is a serious discussion of historical
issues, especially relating to United States and Western Europe.  Also
would like reference to list that deal with the issues of teaching history
at both the undergraduate and graduate levels.  All listing appreciated

John J. Fox
Department of History
Salem State College, Salem, MA
From: J_CAUSEY@CCNODE.COLORADO.EDU (Jim Causey)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: 500 Anniversary of the Admiral's Voyage
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:50:36 GMT
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        I agree with Lenny.  While no one can argue with the fact that the
arrival of Columbus in the New World led to many evil acts, criticizing
those of us who wish the celebrate the mind-boggling, awesome historical
significance of that voyage is, to me, an unacceptable act of intellectual
intolerance.  We're not celebrating the destruction of indigenous cultures;
we're recognizing the tremendous courage and vision of one of history's
most important people.

        On a different note, has anyone seen "1492: Conquest of Paradise"
yet?  I just saw it, and I loved it.
From: HADY@ERS.BITNET (TOM HADY)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: census database
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:01:53 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              13 Oct 1992 09:33:39 PDT from <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA. US>

On the issue of digitizing old census records, it seems to me important to spel
l out what is meant by digitizing.  One could make digital images of the existi
ng records.  That makes them easier to access across a net; you don't have to b
orrow microfilm.  But it doesn't make it any easier to do quantitative analysis
from them.  Or someone can read them and key in the text of what they say.  Tha
t would make quatitative analysis much easier, but the analyst will be totally
dependent on the job the keyboarder did of reading the original records.  Anyon
 who has tried to use the index to the 1900 Census at NARS knows to approach th
at kind of record with healthy skepticism.

--TOM HADY, National Economy & History Branch, Economic Research Service
   U. S. Dept. of Agriculture -- Voice: 202-219-0780  Fax: 202-219-0202
           BITNET: HADY@ERS  INTERNET: HADY@ERS.BITNET
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Vms-Mail-To: HISTORY-L
X-Vms-Mail-Cc: BOB
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 22:33:13 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      re: columbus
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

lenny writes:
>James, I think that Columbus' "discovery" was the most important event
>in history because it forced most of the civilized world into a new
>epoch.  And it was not like many changes, a nebulous, fuzzy, and arguable
>thing.  By 1500 everybody in Europe realized that civilization had
>reached a watershed, that things would never be the same again, that
>new and exciting experiences lay ahead, that we had turned a corner and
>shaken off the 800 year langour of the Middle Ages.
>
>I am not saying that evil was not done, that many were not motivated by base
>and selfish cravings.  The important thing is that a new age began, and
>it did so THEN and THERE as the result of the vision of one man.

what vision, in particular, are you suggesting chris had?  surely
you're not suggesting that columbus knew exacly what he was doing
(i.e. ushering in said new era)?

and surely you're not suggesting that columbus' adventure itself was
the single turning point in the ushering of an era?

and i've missed deleting foss' messages (unread, of course) these past
couple of weeks.  surely he must have some diatribe on columbus which
might help with the daily quota of wastebasket fodder.  you should
know, daniel, that i will read what you write, no matter how long it
is, so long as (a) its of interest and (b) you include a thesis
statement and an essay map in the first paragraph.

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
From: bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US (bob pasker)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: part 2 of nigeria/africa/idi amin
Date: 14 Oct 92 23:15:39 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Vms-Mail-To: HISTORY-L
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

>To: bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
>From: "Laurie Abbott" <cshub!Forsythe.Stanford.EDU!BL.LXA%RLG>
>
>there is also a problem in viewing the problem between nigeria and
>biafra as being between 2 peoples.  not so.  the biafran government
>was basically ibo, but the nigerian government was not nearly so
>synonymous with the multitude of ethnicities, languages, religions,
>and tribes that we represent as "nigeria." one can't characterize the
>biafran war as merely "between Nigeria and the Ibo." "Nigeria" is a
>place, not a people.  the biafran war was accompanied by several power
>struggles and coups within the nigerian government that illustrate
>very well how little the "government" was acting on behalf of any sort
>of populist notion of unity.  i don't think yer average yoruba or
>hausa living in ogbomosho or jos had any animosity at all toward yer
>average ibo (until the war had escalated, and everybody had lost a
>family member in battle).  the stakes in the war were unfortunately
>set unreasonably high by a few men who had far too easy access to
>cheap, powerful weapons, and had elevated notions of their own power.
>many of them didn't even survive the war in power.
>
>To:  BOB@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US
--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 23:41:13 -0500
From:         drummond andrew <adrummon@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Alexandrian library (was Columbus)
Comments: To: history@psuvm.bitnet

Lenny,
     Would you please follow up on your reasons why Burning the Library
was/is the 2nd Most Important Event?

     Andrew Drummond
From: U953117@RUTADMIN.BITNET (Glenn R. Greene)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Columbus
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:46:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

------------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

>
> The lesson of the First Contact is "kill the space creatures as soon as they
> enter the solar system"!
>
> Bob Rogers

 Shouldn't we see if they taste good first?  We might miss out on a real
culinary treat.

  Glenn Greene
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Vms-Mail-To: HISTORY-L
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 20:43:20 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      blind students
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

john eilts at research libraries group (bl.jae@rlg.stanford.edu or
bl.jae@rlg.bitnet) maintains the Middle East Librarians' Association
mailing list.  i'm sure there are folks on that list who would be interested
in your braile transcriptions.

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 09:55:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: genocide

On Tue, 13 Oct 1992 09:27:08 MET George Welling <welling@LET.RUG.NL>
said:

> How about Cambodia, Uganda, Biafra, just to mention a few cases of
> genocide that I can remember in recent times ?

As horrible as were Uganda and Biafra (which I remember well -- I knew
Ugandans both at Michigan and London), I don't really think that
"genocide" is the appropriate label. Idi Amin Dada certainly was
an extraordinarily brutal man, who ruled his land with a level of
terror that reached unusual heights. The Biafran war was very brutal.
BUT, I do not think that the Nigerian authorities or Idi Amin
intended to eliminate entire populations, as the Germans intended
to eliminate Jews and Gypsies, and to reduce Slavs to a slave
minority. The case of Cambodia differs, I think, from both the
Nazi Germans on the one hand and the Uganda-Biafra example on the
other. With Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge did not intend to exterminate
the Khmer. They wanted to exterminate urban culture, middle-class
culture, traditional culture, Western culture (at least as best as
I can figure out, as a reasonably well-read person).
Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
From: DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Medieval-bashing (Was: Columbus)
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:01:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

On Wed, 14 Oct 1992 15:04:44 EDT Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET> said:
> On Tue, 13 Oct 1992 12:30:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
> >On Tue, 13 Oct 1992 00:23:48 EDT Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET> said
> >
> >> we had turned a corner and
> >> shaken off the 800 year langour of the Middle Ages.
> >
> >I think that Lenny is being unfair to the Middle Ages.
> >"Langour" does not lead to Gothic architecture,
> >vernacular literature, the Crusades (to the Baltic as
> >well as to the Levant), and to the voyages of exploration
> >and discovery.
> >
> >Denis Paz
> >dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
>
> Hear, hear!  Make Lenny read Huizinga, how about?  :-)

Lenny tried to worm his way out by pleading that he had
used "languor" rather than "stupor" in order to recognize
the accomplishments of the Middle Ages, but that doesn't
cut the mustard. From the sounds of it, Lenny has been
reading too much Burckhardt and not enough Power.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 07:28:22 -0400
Reply-To:     olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
From:         NAME <olaf@KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject:      Q: WWI Austrian U-boats

Please post on the bit.listserv.history group (SUBJECT: Query,
WWI Austrian U-boots)

A friend is engaged in research into the operations in the
Adriatic Sea during World War I of submarines belonging to the
Imperial and Royal Austro-Hungarian Navy. His research so far is
based on unpublished informal photos of these U-boats and their
crews, and on the personal correspondence of the chief Austro-
Hungarian Naval officer in charge of the Unterseeboot New
Construction Division of the Imperial and Royal Ministry of War
with the Imperial German Navy on construction and delivery of the
German-built U-boats of the Austro-Hungarian Navy. He would very
much appreciate hearing from anyone having knowledge of the oper-
ations of Austro-Hungarian naval vessels, surface as well as
submarines, between 1914 and 1918.

If you can offer any suggestions, please e-mail me or snail-mail
my friend at the following address:
      John D. Harbron
      4 Elstree Rd.
      Etobicoke, Ontario
      M9A 3Z1

Many thanks.

*****************************************************************
* Olaf Janzen              Interests:      North Atlantic history
  * * Department of History                    Maritime history
      * * Sir Wilfred Grenfell College             Newfoundland
history      * * Corner Brook, Newfoundland
                 * * Canada                              Tel:
(709) 637-6282            * * A2H 6P9
FAX: (709) 639-8125            *
*****************************************************************
X-Envelope-to: HISTORY@UBVM.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"HISTORY@UBVM"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 92 18:42:00 BSC
Reply-To:     gomide@BRFAPQ.BITNET
Comments:     @FAPQ.FAPESP.BR - @FAPQ%FPSP.HEPNET - @BRFAPQ.BITNET - .BR
              gateway
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was GOMIDE@BRFAPQ
From:         gomide@FPSP.FAPESP.BR
Subject:      Apologies re: InterMeta course


PLEASE DO NOT SEND MONEY !
It is with regret that I perform this task. Dr. Gelson V. Gomes. a
professor of the University of Parana, Brazil, has exceeded this
privileges and announced a eletronic course:

> ____________________________________________________________
>        Mastering INTERNET Tools, Seizing METANET Power -
>                      The InterMeta Course
> ____________________________________________________________

I must apologize for this flagrant breach of network etiquette. Please
be aware that Dr. Gelson had no right to do so, since this is against
the rules of our ANSP network, and also against the Bitnet rules.
PLEASE DO NOT SEND MONEY!
I will not discuss what his motivations were. But his account has been
revoked, and there will be no such course through my network.

Please write by normal mail, to:
-> Gelson V. Gomes
-> 358, R. Alvaro Andrade - ap.1201
-> Curitiba PR BRAZIL 80610-240
to get more information on his objectives. He may want to give the
course by normal mail.  :-)

With regards,
--
Alberto Courrege Gomide | Fundacao de Amparo `a Pesquisa - (11)831-3357
Software Supervisor     | Rua Pio XI, 1500 - CEP 05468-901 - Sao Paulo
<gomide@fapq.fapesp.br> | FAX (11)261-4167 Telex (11)82014 - Brazil
(ACG8) - .BR Domain Technical Contact. |
--
From: TPOWERS@UNIVSCVM.BITNET (TOM POWERS)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Novels & History
Date: 14 Oct 92 17:45:53 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              13 Oct 1992 13:23:00 -0800 from <FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU>

May favorite historical novel? That's hard to say. Just off the top
of my head, though, I'd nominate Shaara's KILLER ANGELS. Not only
does it explain the happenings at Gettysburg in a way that makes me
feel almost like an eyewitness, it explores all sorts of philosophical
questions about the war and about war in general.
From: DA_AZIZ@FANDM.BITNET (VAX GREMLIN)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: 500 Anniversary of the Admiral's Voyage
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:17:35 GMT
Organization: Franklin and Marshall College
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
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Date sent:  14-OCT-1992 16:09:10
>> In my opinion (which may not count for much, because I'm just a college
>> history major), as long as hero admiration doesn't become the kind of worship
>> that inhibits the historian's ability to be objective, there is nothing
>> wrong with it.
>Never say that you are "just" a college history major. I spent
>four splendid years being a college history major, and look
>where I ended up.
>
>Denis Paz
>dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
   I agree totally with Dennis...never say your "just a history major" (or
"just anything for that matter..all people have opinions that have value) I
thought the same thing when I first joined this list last year but I soon found
that for the most part, everyone and their opinions are respected on this list,
which is why I like it so much. Although there are many different levels on
this list (undergrad, grad, prof, professionals, and so on) everyone is welcome
here. The only limit on this list is how u feel about yourself and not how
others see you. Remember, we can see you so we can't see that flashing neon
sign you wear that says "undergrad!" ;-)  I was "just a history major" just
last year but now I plan to go onto grad school and even co-manage my own
history list with Val Smith on the history of the American West! Ok, even of my
pep talk, you may now return to your usual list! ;-)
Deb
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%Debbie A. Aziz           "And pray that there's         %
%206a Lincoln MIll Rd.    intelligent life somewhere up  %
%Mullica Hill N.J.         in space, Because there's     %
%Prodigy:RMPJ97A          bugger all down here on        %
%By way of F&M College:            Earth"                %
%Bitnet:DA_Aziz@Fandm.Bitnet      --Monty Python         %
%Internet:DA_AZIZ@ACAD.FANDM.EDU     The Galaxy Song     %
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
From: DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: 500 Anniversary of the Admiral's Voyage
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:57:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

On Wed, 14 Oct 1992 11:54:34 -0600 Jim Causey
<J_CAUSEY@CCNODE.COLORADO.EDU> said:

> In my opinion (which may not count for much, because I'm just a college
> history major), as long as hero admiration doesn't become the kind of worship
> that inhibits the historian's ability to be objective, there is nothing
> wrong with it.

I agree. One can admire historical figures, and often admiration
adds life and excitement to one's teaching and writing. The
danger comes if one's admiration blinds one to his hero's
mistakes. Similarly, dislike, or even hatred, are not dangerous
until they interfere with one's desire to understand.

Never say that you are "just" a college history major. I spent
four splendid years being a college history major, and look
where I ended up.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 07:45:05 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WINDO ALERT no more, please

Can we please have an end to WINDO or whatever?  IMHO, messages of this sort
seriously strain--in an injurious fashion--the notion of what this list is
supposed to be.
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Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 11:56:56 -0600
From:         Jim Causey <J_CAUSEY@CCNODE.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      500th Anniversary of Columbus

        Once again, I forgot to sign my last message about historical heroes.
My name is:

Jim Causey
J_CAUSEY@CCNODE.Colorado.EDU
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 01:44:10 EDT
From: corrigible <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: smilies to end all smilies


As a Canadian, I feel obliged to answer the question "What is a
hosehead".The  term first entered popular usage as a result of SCTV's
Bob and Doug MacKenzie   who were a pair of Canadian "hosers" who had
their own TV show where they would discuss such esoteric topics as how
to get free beer by putting a baby mouse in a beer bottle, feeding it
until it grew and then taking it back to the brewer and complaining.
"Hoser" was supposed to be a generic term for all Canadians or rather
Canadians who wear parkas, eat back-bacon, drink copious amounts of beer
and say "eh" at the end of each sentence. A "hosehead" is a term derived
from hoser meaning much the same thing. In truth, I never heard the
terms "hoser" or "hosehead" until Bob and Doug.
     By the way, how do I imbed other peoples posts into my own
(as preceeded by the > symbol)?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 00:23:48 EDT
From:         Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Columbus
Comments: To: James Herchek <aj901@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>, HISTORY@PSUVM.BITNET

James, I think that Columbus' "discovery" was the most important event
in history because it forced most of the civilized world into a new
epoch.  And it was not like many changes, a nebulous, fuzzy, and arguable
thing.  By 1500 everybody in Europe realized that civilization had
reached a watershed, that things would never be the same again, that
new and exciting experiences lay ahead, that we had turned a corner and
shaken off the 800 year langour of the Middle Ages.

I am not saying that evil was not done, that many were not motivated by base
and selfish cravings.  The important thing is that a new age began, and
it did so THEN and THERE as the result of the vision of one man.

Lenny
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 11:54:34 -0600
From:         Jim Causey <J_CAUSEY@CCNODE.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 500 Anniversary of the Admiral's Voyage
Comments: To: HISTORY@UMRVMB.UMR.EDU

	As to the argument about historical heroes, I happen to support both
sides.  While a scholar needs to retain some amount of objectivity when
studying history, for me to give up my intellectual heroes would destroy
the feeling of wonder that I have always felt when learning about history.
In my opinion (which may not count for much, because I'm just a college
history major), as long as hero admiration doesn't become the kind of worship
that inhibits the historian's ability to be objective, there is nothing
wrong with it.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU