From: gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Can science come back to Islam [Part 2]
Date: 9 Apr 92 05:43:58 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Texas A&M University

In article <1992Apr8.112441.27263@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu>, vu0208@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (!!) writes:
|> In article <11962@tamsun.tamu.edu> gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> Quran doesn't give clues in that sense that it predicts about future
|> scientific products and machinery (as Nastrodamus did in his
|> scriptures). However it does give *clues* (not full blown explaination
|> or theory as you may have expected) about natural phenomenons that
|> human being will have hard time to understand, it's basically about
|> search for the truth that why and how this universe was created this
|> way, and to separate real from virtual. ....

I think what I wanted to clarify has been clarified. I'm not denying
that there is a great deal of wealth in terms of both moral and 
scientific knowledge in Quran (or other scriptures for that matter).
But people seem to carry their devotion to their scriptures beyond the
point of logic with such conviction that it becomes obnoxious. The first
post on this thread claimed with almost 100% surety that 'dwarfs and 
blackholes' *are* mentioned in the Quran. Only upon questioning this
you have admitted that it is not exactly in these terms. I believe if 
I carry this further and ask you to come out with the verses, we'll find 
those verses so generalized that just about any heavenly body could be 
be said to be convered within those verses. Infact any new discovery,
be it pulsating quasars or neutrinos from distant galaxies, can be said 
to be mentioned within the Quran or the Vedas or the Bible if you chose 
to interpret them that way. (The funny thing is no one seems to be able
to indicate the missing links from the scriptures until modern research
has conclusively proved it.) 

|> BTW, does Ramayana tells you to look for the signs and do research??
|> Yes, Quran explicitly tells us to go out and explore the mysteries of
|> the universe!!
|> 

Not to my knowledge at least. But the Vedas and the Upanishads do(explicitly).
And so do a whole lot of other scriptures. But I really see no significance of 
this statement about the explicit mention for seeking knowledge. As far 
as my observation of human behavior goes, humans have always had a thirst for 
knowledge, an internal drive to expand their knowledge and conquer all 
that is possible, irrespective of whether or not their holy books demand
that thirst. I see nothing remarkable or revealing about that statement.
Its a statement just like if I say "we should be good to others". Anything
new about it? NOT. Right from the cavemen era, man has forever
been perfecting the art of killing and navigating their way through seas
and deserts using planetary postions. Were they motivated by religious 
injunctions to do this ? NOT. 

|> >	    Would you consider these to be indicative of a highly advanced 
|> >(technologically) society some thousands of years ago, or would you tend to 
|> >consider them as fantasies of the person who composed Ramayana ? Isn't it 
|> >possible that people loved to fantasize in those days too and forerunners of 
|> >Issac Asimovs may have existed then. Please put aside for a second that you 
|> >are defending the Quran and consider objectively as to which of the two 
|> >alternatives would you consider to be more credible about the Ramayana. 
|> 
|> I restrain myself to answer you for the above question:
|>  a) because you ask for putting aside Quran - which i can't do! as i said
|>     earlier that it is Code of life for us, and secondly that's
|>     exactly what we are discussing Islam and science - aren't we?
|> 
|>  b) your statement implies that Quran is composed of fantasies!! (and
|>     that offends me)
|>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

All I asked you to do was a simple thought experiment, to consider 
yourself as some kind of an alien to this planet thus putting aside 
all notions of religion/society behind you for a brief moment. You didn't
strike me as the kind of guy who would be offended by just a thought 
experiment. My apologies. I misjudged. 

About your b): My statement did not at all imply that Quran contains 
fantasies. For the moment I reserve that statement for Ramayana. In no 
way did I try to form an analogy between the 2 books. One is an epic(story), 
the other a formal codification of Islamic laws. I asked you to put 
aside your religious feelings breifly, in the hope that you would agree 
that the composer of Ramayana might have been fantasizing and therefore 
phenomena mentioned in ancient texts should not always be interpreted 
in terms of what has been discoverd today.

Instead you chose to conclude that I am drawing a parallel between the 
Ramayana and the Quran and hence, feeling that you are being cornered
into some devious trap, you refuse to say 'yes' to my question 
(since, according to you, that would be implicating the Quran as well). 
Believe me, I had no such intentions. 

|> What you say might be true for other books and scriptures but not for
|> Quran, I think you must read it atleast from the angle of scientific
|> quest, and you will realize that it does not prophecise about
|> scientific feats that some one may achieve, or if there would be any
|> intergalactic travel in future and things like that, it simply gives
							^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> us pointers to natural phenomenons for us to ponder, wonder, and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> explore further - for there lies some piece of truth for us to gather.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have no doubt that it does and I would be very much surprised if it 
didn't.  Any book that is so elaborately written trying to codify all
possible laws that was ponderable would also ponder upon unknown 
phenomenas as well. But 'pointers' to unknown phenomena and claiming that
these phenomena have been 'explained' are totally different things. I 
fully accept that pointers (and perhaps even some rudimentary explanations)
to what was known to mankind during the 7th century are given in the Quran.
You really needn't convince me of that by posting verses on them. But if 
you find verses that explicitly (and clearly) mention phenomenas (explained
or unexplained) discovered in the *20th century*, I would love to see them. 

|> 
|> P.S. If time allows i will give you the references verse by verse
|>      phenomenon by phenomenon from Quran - but you have to wait!

P.S. - Be cool. I may slip up a little in the phrasing of my sentences
       here and there, but that's no reason to get so heated up about. 

regards,
   ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
    ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|   LIFE'S COMPLEX - IT HAS 
   / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)   REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS  
  /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
_____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan