HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: uemura@isl.melco.co.jp (Joe Uemura)
Subject: Re: Drivers' Championships and technology (was: Aus GP Stuff)
Organization: Mitsubishi Electric, Ofuna, Kanagawa, Japan
	<1992Nov11.015014.19547@wes.on.ca> <1dsc2iINNqj6@morrow.stanford.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 10:08:52 GMT

In article <1dsc2iINNqj6@morrow.stanford.edu> jeff@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller) writes:
 |
 |Tom Haapanen again:
 |>But what could be done to limit the advantage enjoyed by a single team?
 |>It'd be very difficult limiting the amount of engineering and/or techno-
 |>logy going into a car -- I'm sure we don't want spending limits!  The
 |>engine advantage (such as enjoyed by Honda from 1986 to about 1990) could
 |>be easier to deal with: we could require an engine manufacturer to
 |>supply up to N teams with customer engines, where N is the number of
 |>Constructors' Championships they've won in the past five years.  Hey,
 |>FISA already does this kind of thing for tires...
 |>
 |
 |I like this idea a lot. I see three ingredients for success in F1 today:
 |(1) money, (2) engine deal, (3) technical competence, in that order.
   ...
 |be at least three teams, optionally more. The exclusive engine deal has
 |been a killer of competition (which is exactly what both the team and
 |engine manufacturer want from it).
 |

Although I agree that banning exclusive engine deals would probably somewhat 
close the gap, it would not be as effective as with the tires regulation. 
If I recall  correctly, during the early seventies, there were basically only 
two engines in F1: Ford-Cosworth and Ferrari. Even at that time, the 
teams with higher budgets and the better chances of winning the 
championship would receive the most powerful engines. I remember drivers 
complaining that the top Cosworth engines were way more powerful than 
the presumably same Cosworth engines used by the less privileged teams.
 
Joe


Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: marti@inf.ethz.ch (Robert Marti)
Subject: Re: BMW quits the GTCC
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 21:17:01 GMT

In article <184133@pyramid.pyramid.com> danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com
(Dan Jones) writes:
>BTW, Keke Rosberg has left BMW for Joest Opel in next year's GTCC.

Keke Rosberg drove for Mercedes, not BMW.  I have also read that he
will drive for Opel next year, although I am not sure about the team.

-- 
Robert Marti                        Phone:    +41 1 254 72 60
Institut fur Informationssysteme
ETH-Zentrum                         Internet: marti@inf.ethz.ch
CH-8092 Zurich, Switzerland         UUCP:     ...uunet!mcvax!ethz!marti
From: james@Bridge.COM (James Montebello)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Adelaide: [SPOILERS]
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:24:00 GMT
Organization: Bridge Information Systems

In article <1992Nov9.020022.16443@spectrum.xerox.com> mjackson@xerox.com writes:
>[Just in case there's someone who doesn't know about the Senna-Mansell
>incident by now.]
>The FOSA hotline says Senna's story is that Mansell slowed unexpectedly
>with a clear track ahead; Senna was already on the limit of braking and
>could not avoid running into him.  Nigel complained to the stewards,
>who judged it a "racing incident" and took no action.

It looked this way to me. Mansell appeared to either slow (or not
accelerate much) past the apex, which is when Senna clouted him.  I was
a bit suprised by David Hobbs' thrashing of Senna on this, as it looked
as though it wasn't his fault at all. Mansell, I'm sure, blamed Senna
as he's incapable of blaming himself for anything. The only "mistake"
Senna made was pushing Nigel as hard as he could. I'd say that this
incident is certainly overshadowed by Mansell's error in Canada, which
he also blamed on Senna. Mansell should fit right in with "Team
Andretti" in the finger pointing dept.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
james montebello (james@bridge.com)         'my employer has no opinions'		
Experience: a comb life gives you after you lose your hair.
	- Judith Stern
From: s1072964@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (SHERLOCK)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Senna's an ass!
Date: 11 Nov 92 22:35:25 GMT
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.

andy@poe.cs.clemson.edu (Andrew J. Greenshields N3IGS) writes:

>In article <433@rehab1.UUCP> dans@rehab1.UUCP (Dan Schein) writes:
>>
>  I don't know what caused the accident between Senna and Mansell, at
>least not yet.  I do find it interesting to see how many people want
>to jump on the Senna bashing bandwaggon before they know too.  You say
>that Senna had nothing to loose by taking out Mansell, I am not sure
>if this is true.  Senna looked, for the first time this season, that
>he could compete with the Williams on the track.  If he had passed
>Mansell he could have won the race.

    I'm curious, if Berger only had enough fuel at the end of the race to do
    one more lap, how is it that Senna would have had enough fuel to finish
    after flogging the hell out of his car just to keep up with Mansell. I
    think you would find Senna would have ran out of fuel if he passed Mansell
    and then continued to try and get away from Mansell.
>  On the other hand, what did he
>have to gain by taking Mansell out?  Nothing at all that I can see.

    Nothing but stop Mansell from getting another record, we all know how
    strong the rivalry between the two is.

>  When I watched the incident on replay, it is clear that Senna is going
>sideways when he hit Mansell.  It looks very much like he was trying
>to avoid a collision.  I also find it quite interesting to compare
>this incident to last years episode between Senna and Prost at
>Hockenheim.  A lot of people were very critical of Senna for his braking
>tactics, but how many of those people would be critical of Mansell if
>it turned out he "brake tested" Senna?

    I don't think Mansell was brake testing Senna because he must have known
    what Senna would do when he was that close. I think it was just "brain
    fade" from Senna.
    Somehow I don't think we'll ever know what happened now that Mansell is
    leavin.

         _________  __          __________  ___________   _________    ___   ___
        /  _____ / / /        / ________ / /____  ____/  /  ____  /   /  /  /  /
      /  /__     / /        /  /___           /  /     /  /   /_/   /  /__/  /
    /  ____/   / /        /  _____/         /  /     /      _     /  ___   /
  /  /       / /_____   /  /_____         /  /     /  /___/ /   /  /  /  /
/__/       /________/ /_________/       /__/     /________/   /__/  /__/
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Nissan leaving IMSA GTP for IndyCar
Reply-To: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Nashua NH
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:28:05 GMT


According to the USA Today Sports newsgroup, Team Nissan are pulling out of
GTP competition, both IMSA Camel GT Series and Le Mans, and instead will field
an IndyCar team.  The article said that Nissan is doing this because the
recession has forced them to re-evaluate the marketing aspect of their sports
car program.

If this is true, it would be a major blow to IMSA, whose GTP fields are already
rather sparse.

--PSW

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: nealet@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Neale Type)
Subject: Re: Mansell and Senna
Organization: University of Sussex
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:32:30 GMT

lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu (Luis Miguel Silveira) writes:
: 
: 
:    In article <1dlmjuINN3ic@bHARs12c.bnr.co.uk>
:    irw@bharh58.bnr.co.uk (Ian Woollard) writes:
: 
:    Explanations:
: 
:    a) Senna deliberately running into the back of Mansell
:    b) Mansell 'brake testing' Senna
:    c) Mansell and Senna jointly making a mistake
:    d) Problem with either car
: 
: What about a possible:
: 
: e) Senna running into the back of Mansell (not deliberately, let us
: call it brain fade)
: 


Either Senna's front brakes failed, or Senna made a MISTAKE!!!
there is no way Mansell could be at fault, In an Interview Mansell did
afterwards he said "Its up to the car behind not to go into the car in
front" "I was all over Senna in Monaco, and he was breaktesting me all
over the circuit in places you didn't normally brake, and I managed to
avoid going into the back of him..."
Mansell also said that Senna had said (phew) that his brakes were much
better than the wiiliams's brakes... 


neale

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neale Type , Computing Service      ///   |   * Current UK Kickoff Champion *
University of Sussex, Falmer    \\\///    |     nealet @ syma.sussex.ac.uk 
England.   BN1 9QH               \X//     |      ccfe7 @ cluster.sussex.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: mclellan@maximillion.mcc.com (David McLellan)
Subject: Marlin was Re: Winston at Phoenix
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: MCC Corporate Computing
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 14:46:00 GMT

In article <5NOV199209053130@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov>, scdorcy@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES DORCEY) writes...
> 
>Which kind of reminds me - who is Marlin driving for next year?
> 
>JD

Marlin will be driving for the Stavolas next year.  In their new 
Raybestoes Ford.  Yes, a change in driver and sponser for them next 
year.  Wait and see how Marlin does.  I expect him to places lower, on 
the average, than he has with Junior.

david
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: nn0b+@andrew.cmu.edu (Noah D. Neiman)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Mansell and Senna
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:03:46 GMT
	<1dlmjuINN3ic@bHARs12c.bnr.co.uk>
Organization: Junior, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I don't understand why some people have said that Senna was not braking
when he shunted Mansell.  On the ESPN coverage I saw, Senna was CLEARLY
going sideways before he hit Mansell.  It seemed rather obvious that
Senna had locked his brakes causing a skid.  You could tell Senna got
sideways before he hit the Williams because Mansell's car clearly jumped
upon contact, and Senna had already begun to spin.  The only reason I
can think of for this would be an unexpected slowing of the Williams. 
This would also explain why Senna was able to close a considerable gap
on Mansell in the course of one lap.  Can anyone with a tape of the race
check the gap from Mansell to Senna on the lap prior to the accident and
post it?   IMHO Senna was going at full tilt and Mansell had slowed. 
When Senna caught up Mansell he tried to avoid him and locked 'em up.

btw:  the ESPN coverage was awful.  Someone suggested that Hobbs and
Varsha weren't even there, and I believe it.  The only pit shots semed
like they were from the world feed.  And it took them a long time to
replay the above accident.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: comptec92070@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: Re: Schumacher for 1993 champion?
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:57:54 GMT

> This is my first posting, so please bear with me.
> 
> How does everyone feel about next years world Champion?
> I reckon it is gonna be Schumacher as:
> 
> 1) Williams is now going to lose Mansell and thus ther motivation. With all the
>    trouble this year over drivers, they will be in somewhat a dissarray.
> 
> 2) McLaren don't have a decent engine for next year and no Senna.
> 
> 3) Patrese is good, but I think Schumachers pace after 1 full year is going to
>    improve to the point where not even Patrese will be able to keep up! As with
>    Martin this year
> 
> 4) A Benetton Ford V-12 an exciting prospect.!!
> 
> Well thats my opinion!
> Chris.

   Does anybody know if it has been confirmed that Benetton will, in fact, be
using the Ford V12s next year? Things seem to have been very quiet on the
Benetton-Ford engine front and it wouldn't surprise me if the 12 failed to
appear until 1994, or even at all.

Sylvan.
From: tiok_kl@tac.fi (Kari Leminen)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Mansell and Senna
Date: 10 Nov 92 12:04:50 +0200
Organization: City of Tampere

In article <Nov09.211253.17772@engr.washington.edu>, eliot@stalfos.engr.washington.edu (eliot) writes:
0 it was due to lapped traffic that allowed Senna to catch up with
> Mansell.  btw, i think that mika hakkinen should be given a serious
> spanking for holding up schumacher so much.  if it wasn't for hakkinen
> schumacher may have won.  the schumacher-berger gap opened to 20 odd
> seconds because hakkinen would not let him through.  a lot of this was
> during espn's commercials, btw.  espn viewers also missed quite a
>- 
    	I fully agree. Keke Rosberg, Hakkinens manager was tv-commentator 
	of the Finnish TV during Australian GP and he told that Hakkinen 
	is known as a very polite driver who pays lot of attention what 
	is happening behind .
	During the action Keke remarked about 3-4 times that Mika should 
	let Schumacher go ,and I think Mika knew very well the situation
	but didnt let him trough on purpose. 
	Once they were hard competitors in F3 and I suppose Mika just 
	paid some old depts ... 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tiok_kl@tac.fi                                   _/  _/  _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ 
Kari Leminen                                    _/ _/   _/  _/ _/  _/ _/  _/   
                                               _/_/    _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/
Department of information technology          _/ _/   _/  _/ _/     _/  _/    
        Tampere ,Finland                     _/   _/ _/  _/ _/     _/  _/  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: More Sauber Tests at Barcelona
Date: 6 Nov 1992 13:07:38 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Dan Jones) says:

>Richard Banks writes:
>
>>In a previous article, tvp53202@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Toby Vaughn Padfield) says:
>>
>>>>Doesn't Barcelona have a long straight?
>>>>Wasn't he using 93 tires?
>>>
>>>>Makes sense to me.
>>>
>>>	Yes, the Circuito de Catalunya has a fairly long straight. I can see
>>>that the new rules for '93 would allow for faster speeds along the straights
>>>but they also will make cornering speeds significantly slower. You say that
>>>it makes sense to you, in reference to teh new record set on '93 tires. The
>>>tires for '93 are going to be of a harder compound, making the traction ob-
>>>tainable from them less. Am I missing something here?
>>
>>You may be missing alot but let's not get into that.
>
>I must be missing something here too.  Would you enlighten us?


You both *know* what you are missing.  I'll just go ahead and say it for
you.  You are both trying to imply that the Sauber-Illmor is a better car
that the Williams-Renault.
From: dhukill@esprit.prime.com (Dave Hukill x4056 5-1)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Senna's an ass!
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:50:36 GMT


 To follow up on my previous note, I re-ran the tape of the accident, and it
is clear that Mansell braked about 20-30m EARLIER than he was earlier in
the race. Brake testing? Possible. On the flip side of that, Senna had
plenty of time to react, but did not until it was too late. This is probably
where the 'Brain fade' theories come from.

 In any case, we saw the end (at least for the '93 season) of two of the
largest egos in recent memory from Formula 1, so lets hope that spells an
end to all the finger-pointing, and a begining to some REAL racing.

Dave Hukill <dhukill@esprit.prime.com>
From: thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: More Sauber Tests at Barcelona
Date: 8 Nov 92 21:08:35 GMT
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd

In <184158@pyramid.pyramid.com> danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Dan Jones) writes:

>Robert Marti writes :

>>results.  One could indeed be that the Sauber-Ilmor C12 is better than
>>the Williams-Renault FW14.  Another one could be that Karl Wendlinger is

>A good example of how inaccurate it can be to compare times from one event
>to another, is the Japanese GP this year and the F3000 event in March.
>Ross Cheever's pole time in March would have qualified him 15th for the GP.
>That would have been faster than Jean Alesi in the Ferrari.

><sarcasm on>

>Therefore, I would like to say that the F3000 Reynard is a better car
>than the F1 Ferrari.

><sarcasm off>

I dunno about the sarcasm, it may just be true!   ;^)
(I don't really have a high opinion of Ferrari at the moment - they
seem to actually be going backwards)

-- 
thos cohen  				       |Softway Pty Ltd
"It's not so bad to be a lair but a conniving  |ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 egomaniac is not really that socially accept- |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 able."  SMH, 2 Nov 92, P. Keating vs J. Hewson|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: pod@sour.sw.oz.au (Paul O'Donnell)
Subject: Re: Aus GP Stuff
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: 10 Nov 92 00:49:38 GMT

In <frank.31.721350221@wench.ece.jcu.edu.au> frank@wench.ece.jcu.edu.au (Frank Savaglio) writes:

>Well I WAS impressed with Senna until he had his characteristic (from his 
>early and more recent exploits) "brain fade". With Mansell braking to take 
>the corner, Senna failed to read the braking and went right up the Williams 
>bum forcing both off. Mansell ran from the car as Senna approached. He was 
>later to say that if he had gone anywhere near Ayrton at the time, he would 
>have punched him in the head. Senna denied responsibility (as usual) but all 
>evidence clearly pointed the finger to his falling asleep at the wheel. Lets 
>face it, any racing driver let alone these "Superlicensed" fellas, could 
>have avoided that collision. 

Don't confuse road driving with racing.  Anyone could avoid that
kind of collision on the road by leaving a suitable gap to the car
in front.  Leaving large gaps to the car in front is not an option
when racing - the only thing that stops this kind of accident
happening al the time is that the drivers trust each other to not
do anything stupid.  FISA examined the tape frame by frame and
concluded Mansell braked 20m earlier than he had on previous laps
and it was a "racing accident".  In my book this counts as Mansell
doing something stupid, There was no way Senna could avoid it.
Watching the interviews afterwards showed how much Senna had matured
and what a whinger Mansell really is.  Senna basically said "These
things happen", Mansell ranted and raved like a two year old.

>forhot to tell Schumacher. THe man was driving like a fury and with Berger 
>running low on fuel (his fuel reading was negative on the last lap!) he 
>nearly took him in the end. The margin was less than a second I beleive.

It looked like Berger ran out of fuel crossing the line, Schumacher
was several seconds behind the previous lap and Berger slowed
dramatically as he crossed the line.  At the time I believed
Schumacher made a bad call not coming in for tyres as soon as he
got stuck behind Hakkinen.  I read in the paper that he wanted to
come in but the team told him to stay out.  If Berger was really
low on fuel, that decision could have cost Schumacher the race.
Shades of Belgium where Schumacher won, largely due to a similar
error from the Williams team - you win some, you lose some.

-- 
Paul O'Donnell - Softway Pty Ltd         |"You're just saying that because
Internet: pod@softway.sw.oz.au           |you don't understand art."
Phone: +61 2 698-2322 Fax: +61 2 699-9174|     - Jeremy Fitzhardinge
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: eliot@stalfos.engr.washington.edu (eliot)
Subject: Re: Adelaide: Senna-Mansell crash
Organization: clearer than blir
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:28:12 GMT

In article <1dmh2mINNne0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks) writes:
>In a previous article, myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) says:

>>Now, why Patresse was consistently so slow in the race as well as in
>>the qualifying can be due to one or all of four reasons:

>>1. lack of skill
>>2. inferior or broken (during race) equipment
>>3. lack of motivation
>>4. knowing it's a long hard race, he wants to save chassis and rubber

i think that there is more to this than lack of skill or conspiracy.
if you read the qualifying reports, you will see that conditions on
the second day was less favorable than the first.  i think that
patrese's qualifying time and position is not bad at all.  the
mclarens were unusually competitive this time.  anybody knows more?

as for him being slower than mansell/senna in the early parts, here is
my theory: patrese, in defending his position, took less optimal and
more defensive lines through the curves.  of course i won't dispute
that mansell is a faster driver, but i don't think one could pinpoint
one or two reasons for it.

there was a post here sometime back which said something to the effect
that the actively suspended cars are a little more tricky to extract
maximum performance from.  perhaps patrese could not cope as well with
it as mansell.  remember how fast patrese was in 1991?


eliot
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Autosport's opinion
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:59:31 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

I quote:

The crash came on lap 19 as the Brazilian challenged Mansell for the lead on 
the approach to the final hairpin.  Mansell took a tighter line, protecting 
the inside from Senna and had to brake earlier.  Senna, who was tucked 
behind him, was taken by surprise, locked his rear brakes and slid into the 
back of Mansell's Williams.

Anybody with a video want to check whether Senna's rear was locked up?

        Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty

  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44|0)61-275-6033  
  D.Budd@mcc.ac.uk                                          fax 6040
From: george@mech.seas.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Static vs. Dynamic friction
Date: 10 Nov 92 00:21:53 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania, Mechanical Engineering

:
:So between a rolling tire and the pavement, we have static friction (as long
:as there's no wheelspin); and we have dynamic friction between a sliding (or
:spinning) tire and the pavement.
:

just to beat the horse further...
the tread of your rolling tire undergoes a compression/tension
cycle as it passes through the contact patch.  There is thus
always some relative sliding, ( even when not braking ) , except
at some point near the center of the contact patch.  The only
time your friction is static is when things are, well, static.

further.
this sort of effect, and more importantly the non-classical
nature of the rubber-whatever interface gives us a continuous
transition between 'static' friction and 'sliding' friction.




--
  /   george jefferson
\/ *  george@mech.seas.upenn.edu