HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Hebrew School Curricula (Was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:32:50 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Jul27.140325.19308@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>In article <55131@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul24.151615.27056@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:



>>			...................


>>But if a more organized curriculum is used, this is enough time to cover
>>quite a bit.  A thorough understanding of the structure of Hebrew, with
>>a very good start on the vocabulary, is quite possible in ONE year of
>>3 hours a week class work.

>Unfortunately, the task of the Hebrew school includes more than teaching
>Hebrew.  In addition, it's gotta cover Jewish history, prayer, holidays,
>rituals, ethics, culture, Israel, etc.  More significantly, the Hebrew
>school is also charges with inculcating Jewish values (whatver that
>phrase means), and providing a strong enough foundation to ensure that
>that the graduates will continue their Jewish education and involvement
>and commitment long after graduation.  And, to add to the burden, the
>Hebrew schools must do this despite minimal parental support (e.g.,
>homework assistance, etc.) and against constantly competing activities
>("My child had to miss Hebrew school because of swim practice").

But can these be covered intelligently without secular knowledge?
Can we do other than indoctrinate instead of teaching if the background
is not there?  Can Jewish history be understood outside of world 
history?  Can culture be understood without history and also a
knowledge of the effects of surrounding cultures?  Can prayer,
holidays, and rituals be understood without the rest?  Some of
it requires an understanding of Hebrew.

It is not the case that Judaism stands on its own without regard to
the rest of human culture.  At least one mitzvah is explicitly stated
to be so that certain customs of the goyim are not followed.  

Too much of present Jewish (and secular, as well) education is mindless
rote; I have argued in misc.education and elsewhere that this makes it
harder to understand.  We can, and should, make things more efficient
and emphasize understanding.  
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Mafdal and the Government
Date: 23 Jul 92 01:27:43 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM's message of 22 Jul 92 18:24:30 GMT

In article <l6r9uuINN8a9@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:
>
> I'm afraid my original post was not
> worded well -- what I MEANT to ask was whether this was the first time
> the Mafdal had not been involved in the formation of a government
> coalition; I knew they'd quit in a huff from time to time.

According to an article in an Israeli paper from June which I read just
this morning, Mafdal has up to now been part (at least initially) of
*every* Israeli governing coalition, both of Labor and of Likud.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Discovery
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 31 Jul 92 05:50:11 GMT

In <1992Jul30.165422.677841@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:

>As an addendum, I would like to add my own 2 cents. Judging by the
>vicious reaction on the part of some readers to my previous posts
>on this topic, I have realized the following bitter truth:

>The implications of these studies, assuming them to be proven correct,
>is so enormous that it will be absolutely devastating to some indiduals.
>This, I believe, is the reason for their vicious reaction, not to
>mention scorn and ridicule.

I entirely agree with the negative reactions.  And I believe that the
Torah is the word of God as written down by Moshe.

I am skeptical because I think we were given the Torah to study and
observe, not to throw into a food processor.  I am skeptical because I
know that it is easy to fool oneself (n.b. I do not say anyone is
lying) with statistics.  I am skeptical because the Harvard Professor
still hasn't turned up.

And most of all, I'm skeptical because this reminds me of a fellow
named Norman who used to come around YU once each year and hand out
thick booklets that did numerical tricks on stock market listings,
baseball scores, and anything else, which proved (to Norman's
satisfaction) that he was the Messiah.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very publishing house ***.
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ nysernet.org is ***.
From: rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: The decline of the Shakers (was Re: Who are the Haredi?)
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:42:44 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Jul21.125722.17218@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>My understanding for the reason that there are so few Shakers left is
>that they do not believe in having sex.  At all.  Thus, their numbers
>only grow through "conversion" and it takes real dedication to give up
>that aspect of life.

That's part of it.  The other part is that some time ago (around 50 years ago),
the Shakers decided not to take any more converts.  I think this was because of
concern that converts might be more motivated by the Shakers' wealth (which had
become significant by then) than by religious feeling.

So they don't have children, and they don't accept converts.  The inevitable
result has followed.

   Robert
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 20:15:43 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.182105.19084@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.151130.23195@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
>
>>That wasn't the point.  You said that "murder" was not an
>>acceptable solution to *any* problem.  I just gave you two.  The
>>death penalty is another issue.
>
>More silly semantic games here:  Murder is never an acceptable
>soltion.  Killing can sometimes be.  Murder specifically implies an
>illegal act.
>-- 
>   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
>  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
> ((|,)
>  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.


In discussing an issue in which the *meaning* of the terms used is
so critical "semantic games" are required to pin down the
definitions.  The use of the term "murder" in the post that I was
responding to included the use of the death penalty, killing by
*any* non-judicial method (including self defense), and war.

As defined here, the statement is corrrect. Murder is never an
acceptable solution, killing (which can be justified) can under
specific circumstances be a required solution.

Note that what those circumstances are, how to determine them,
etc. are a completely different thread and require more time than I
have available.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: irwin@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Irwin David)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Questionnaire
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:27:50 GMT
Distribution: qc
Organization: Universite de Montreal



To whom it may concern,


In order to complete a Ph.D. dissertation in the field of political science 
I must verify a certain number of propositions. To do so, I must gather data.
To gather data I must ask people to fill a questionnaire.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If yourself or your parents were born in a country other than Canada you| 
qualify as a respondent. You must also be  a resident of the province 
of Quebec.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you wish to receive a copy of the questionnaire or further details, please 
send me a message or provide me with a postal address. You should expect the
questionnaire to arrive via Canada Post within the week. 

P.S. Thank you to those who have already accepted to participate in the
study.

Regards.

David H. Irwin

Please note: this posting should appear only in the Quebec distribution
area. If you can read this posting outside the province of Quebec, please
disregard it. The survey is limited to Quebec residents. Thanx!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
David H. Irwin				E-mail: irwin@ere.umontreal.ca
University of Montreal
			<<Have a Nice Day>>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall)
Subject: Re: NYT OpEd: Black Demagogues and Pseudo-Scholars
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:52:22 GMT

slater@cs.uiuc.edu (Rob Slater) writes:

>	Overall, this was a facinating article.  But one part really
>confused me:

>[ ...text deleted... ]

>>            In New York, earlier this spring, a forum was held at the
>>Church of St.  Paul and Andrew to provide an occasion for blacks and
>>Jews to engage in dialogue on such issues as slavery and social
>>injustice. Both Jewish and black panelists found common ground and
>>common causes. But a tone-setting contingent of blacks in the audience
>>took strong issue with the proceedings. Outraged, they demanded to
>>know why the Jews, those historic malefactors, had not apologized to
>>the "descendants of African kings and queens."

>>And so the organizer of the event, Melanie Kaye Kantrowitz, did.  Her
>>voice quavering with emotion, she said: "I think I speak for a lot of
>>people in this room when I say 'I'm sorry.' We're ashamed of it, we
>>hate it, and that's why we organized this event."

>	Which Jewish actions were we asked to apoligize for?  I am not

The (minimal) participation of Jews in the slave trade. Of course, there
was also black African involvement, Arab Islamic involvement, ...

>trying to ask a rehetorical question here.  I just find it amazing the
>Kantrowitz found it necessary to apoligize on all of our behalf when I
>cannot even follow what is going on.  Perhaps I am idiot.  Or Kantrowitz
>is a sell out and an embarassment to Jews.  I am not sure which.

I think the phrase "descendants of African kings and queens" should
give you a clue.

_______________________________________________________________________________

steven stovall
stovall@exeter.cs.ucla.edu
(310) 825-7307
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian Jews?
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 21 Jul 92 08:11:03 GMT
Keywords: Bat Creek Stone, Cyrus Gordon

Interestingly, an article in the Winter 1991 Skeptical Inquirer says
that it is J. Huston McCulloch who deomonstrated that two out of five
of the Newark, Ohio 'Holy Stones', another claimed Hebrew inscription
are clearly hoaxes.

Myself, I'll wait until they find the ruins of an actual Jewish
settlement.  With three shuls, of course (one for Shabbat, one for the
holidays, and one that I wouldn't set foot in) :)
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange mathom.
 |warren@      But the cabbie
/ nysernet.org is not *** at all.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:31:06 GMT

In article <LERNER.92Jul24094859@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
>>>Many Reform Jews (of those that are serious) do indeed keep Shabbat.
>>
>>I have argued myself for a serious observance of Shabbath, but not 
>>what the Orthodox call the proper observance.  One must reinterpret
>>and discard.
> I'm glad that you support serious Shabbos observance.  Why however
> "must" one "reinterpret and discard" as you say?   
>
>>Where does it state in the Written Torah that circumcision is to be performed
>>by a mohel?  Where does it state anything about the nature of the ceremony?
>>From Joshua, it seems that this commandment was not kept in the desert, and
>>I can see no danger in doing it there.  
> The halachas of circumcision have been brought down in the Gemorah.  
> They can also be derived no doubt purely from the written Torah but
> this requires a cholar of tremendous erudition.  Please note that I have
> not answered your question chapter-and-verse for obvious reasons, and
> if you seriously want to find where then I can suggest several people
> who could tell you.    
>--
>/M


Please note that nowhere does it say a professional mohel must
perform a bris just as nowhere does it say that a professional
Rabbi must certify kashrus or a Doctor is the only one to heal.

In all case, we turn to the appropriate expert in the field because
he knows how to do it properly and what is involved.  THat is why
we use a mohel, he has studied and practiced and is an expert at
both the halachik and medical aspects of milah (and both are
required).

There are a number of doctors who will get a mohel in for a
circumcision (even of nonJews) as an operation because of their
expertise (if only based on sheer numbers).

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
From: sutin@ra.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:24:27 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: ra.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Jul22.183547.16457@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
->In article <14k5hgINNe7c@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
->>
->>Could you please explain why cannibalism would appear wrong to a cannibal?
->>If I can gain strength by eating my neighbor, why should I not do so?
->>
->The question as phrased is nonsense in the literal meaning of the
->term.  The question at hand is *Jewish* belief.  I would demand a
->cannibal stop practicing as a cannibal because it is objectively
->wrong and the cannibal beliefs are wrong.  I would not try to argue
->from inside those beliefs.

Why are cannibal beliefs wrong for a cannibal?  Obviously they are wrong
for a Jew, but to attampt to correct the cannibal would be proseletyzing.

->Similarly, a Jew should follow the Jewish principles because they
->are right and were given by G-d, not because of any "tradition",
->"culture", or "history" [...]

I disagree.  A Jew should follow Jewish law because of the covenant of
Israel with G-d.  I'd call that "contract law."  Perhaps the laws
encompassed by the covenant would be abhorent to a cannibal.  How do you
know thay are "right?"

->| H_Markowitz@att.com |  So too is it with the Jews and the TORAH  |

Brian Sutin				sutin@helios.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: deathknell for state supervision
Keywords: kosher law
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:02:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsl.1992Jul23.130249.17834
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous


The following was posted in a New Jersey news summary newsgroup.  I
believe it is from UPI. In a sense, it is a political article, but it has
nothing to do with mideast politics.

>	(TRENTON)- The New Jersey Supreme Court says the state's kosher food
>regulations are unconstitutional. The high court ruled in favor of a
>Linden company that was penalized for selling non-kosher chicken as
>kosher. Four justices ruled that the use of a board of rabbis to help
>create and enforce state regulations involves the government in
>religious affairs... and violates the constitutional ban on freedom of
>religion.

>	Three dissenters said that kosher food has recognized standards...
>and that many non-Jews purchase kosher products because they are
>believed to be healthier or better prepared.

I was concerned that this would happen.  Hopefully, as the mechanism Rabbi
Arian described comes to fruition, Kashruth standards will become uniform
enough that fraud and misrepresentation will be the crime - totally
divorced from religious issues.

Am I being overly optimistic?  Any other comments?
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jns1@quads.uchicago.edu (jonathan nelson strom)
Subject: Aleph Hebrew Emulation/Transliteration
Reply-To: jns1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:36:55 GMT

I am looking for help in using the Hebrew holdings of the Aleph On-line 
catalogue in Israel.  I can connect via a PC and the mini-computer on 
campus to the Internet and Aleph and can use the Roman alphabet holdings.
However, the Hebrew appears as a jumble and isn't recognizable.  My
question is: Is there software available that would allow one to run
a terminal program on a PC that would either display the Hebrew as an
understandable transliteration or (better) in a Hebrew font?

Any help would be appreciated.

Jonathan Strom
jns1@quads.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 23 Jul 92 10:36:31 GMT

In <BrswCu.LuD@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

>He doesn't have to.  But if he stops eating people, you can hardly call
>him a cannibal anymore (except in the extended ethnic sense).  No doubt
>if he or his children resume eating human flesh, they will again be con-
>sidered cannibals.

Does cannibalism work with patrilineal or matrilineal descent?  Are
there liberal movements within cannibalism that consider eating human
flesh optional or substitute tofu, but seasoned to taste like human
flesh?  Or three-times-a-year cannibals that eat kosher deli the rest
of the year?
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very Czarish hamantasch.
 |warren@      But the cabbie
/ nysernet.org is not paranoid at all.
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:24:42 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University

In <84603@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P
Wiener) writes:

>In article <dfs.712330327@ro>, dfs@doe (David F. Skoll) writes:
>>>In article <dfs.712284318@data>, dfs@doe (David F. Skoll) writes:
>>>>>Let me see.  Conservative and Reform Jews DON'T think they're right?

>>>>Sure they do.  But they *don't* say that Orthodox are wrong.

>>>That is certainly a lie.

>>Please give examples of official positions from Reform or Conservative
>>leadership which state that Orthodoxy is wrong.  (I'm not talking about
>>individuals; as someone else pointed out, there are intolerant people
>>in every group.)

>You're *not* talking about individuals?  What is this "Conservative and
>Reform Jews" line that you replied to???

From the context, which you've deleted, it was clear that I meant
Conservative and Reform Jews in general.  If you like, take that as a
rewording.  The fact that some C and R Jews say Orthodox is wrong is
irrelevant - they're just intolerant.  The fact that under the
accepted Orthodox view, one is *forced* to conclude that C and R are
wrong is quite relevant to the discussion.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: markr@mot.com (Mark)
Subject: Re: looking for an apt in J'lem
Reply-To: markr@mcil.comm.mot.com
Organization: MCIL
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 05:03:31 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.165949.5732@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.155128.11311@nynexst.com>, schwartz@nynexst.com (Steven Schwartz) writes:
>|> 
>|> In article <1992Jul24.131308.6019@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>|> > In article <22013@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>|> > 
>|> > >Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied territories.
>|> > >--
>|> > >Yigal Arens
>|> > >USC/ISI    
>|> > 
>|> > Isn't USC in US-occupied Mexican territory?
>|> > -- 
>|> > Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
>|> 
>|> No, Sam, it's in the European-occupied Native American territories.
>|> -- 
>|> Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory
>|> schwartz@nynexst.com		NYNEX Science and Technology Center
>|> PROFS: SCHWARTZ@UNIX		500 Westchester Avenue
>|> 914-644-2960			White Plains NY 10604
>
>	No, both of you are wrong.  It is Human-occupied Buffalo territories.

Actually, it's Multi-Celled-occupied Primordial Mass territory.

Mark
From: jeff@panix.com (Jeff Poretsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kosher - Homebrew question...
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:57:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Jul28.165246.9433@nynexst.com> schwartz@nynexst.com (Steven Schwartz) writes:

>If all the ingredients are kosher, and the brewing utensils are new
>OR have only been used with kosher food OR have been kashered,
>then the beer is kosher.  

>> Of course, since there is still some yeast in it, it can't be kosher for
>> passover :)

>Whether or not the yeasties remain as fertile beasties, 
>-NO- grain-based beverages--distilled or otherwise--are 
>kosher for Pesach.
>-- 
>Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory
>schwartz@nynexst.com		NYNEX Science and Technology Center
>PROFS: SCHWARTZ@UNIX		500 Westchester Avenue
>914-644-2960			White Plains NY 10604

But MEAD (honey wine, a misnomer if ever I heard one) can be kosher
for passover. Last year I made a batch of mead for passover using brand
new utensils.  Delish :)

Jeff Poretsky	jeff@panix.com 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 29 Jul 92 07:12:02 GMT

hf = hap@scubed.com (Hap Freiberg)
dg = <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>

dg: After all, G-d doesn't listen to the sermons of a Southern Baptist
dg: minister.

hf: I must have missed your reasoning re the above differences. And I
hf: missed the smiley at the end. Or do you really know to whom and not to
hf: whom God listens?

There is a little boy dying of an irony deficiency.  He wants to
get in the FAQ as the person to have received the largest number of
smilies.  Please send your smilies to ...
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire auditorium		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very three-sided hamantasch.
 |warren@      But the chef
/ nysernet.org is paranoid.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish