From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Dan. 9 (was: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
Organization: University of Turku
	<1992Jul27.144841.24701@watson.ibm.com>
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:35:49

In article <1992Jul27.144841.24701@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
> I am Jewish, but support religious pluralism.  While
> it may be intellectually interesting to discuss and
> debate with Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, or atheists,
> ultimately I am more interested in understanding
> others' views on religion than in changing them.

Thus, you believe that truth is relative. God is the Truth and He says:
Shma Israel, Hashem Eloheinu, Hashem echad !

> *officially* repudiate it.  Then we can go back to having
> nice detached intellectual debates on what Daniel 9 means
> and so forth.

Good that you mentioned about this. I've got some files about it.
Here's something Ruben has written a while ago.

A notice: 'weeks' in Hebrew is 'shavuot', not 'shavuim' like here.

From: ruben@europa.ee.uts.EDU.AU (Ruben Gonzalez)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: RE: 70 weeks of Daniel
Date: 14 Jan 92 03:51:59 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney, Australia


Rob Strom comments on Kenneth's interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel.His 
analysis of it as being a textbook example of backwards reasoning is perhaps
slightly justified. 

However this critisism can not so be applied to the interpretation suggested
by scripture itself.

The scritpure does indeed speak of weeks and irrespective of how perfectly 
some mathematics work out, mathematics should not be sufficient justification
 to hold the
interpretation as sure. There is however another way.

Now letting the scriptures explain themselves we can use the biblical
principle for reckoning prophetic and symbolic time periods.

What is this principle? It is the year-day principle. This principle
states that for every day in prophecy it is equivalent to one real year.

Where do the scriptures demonstrate the use of this princple ?

well here are two places :

Eze 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to
        the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou
        bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. (KJV)
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and
        thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have
        appointed thee each day for a year. (KJV)

Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even
          forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even
          forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. (KJV)


Now we can use this princple as a basis for a systematic understanding of
not just this but all time prophecies in the scriptures without the need
for trying to squeeze things in or having to leave things out.

No we are told that there is 69 weeks before Messiah the Prince
the starting date is determined from the scriptures themselves. In
fact Ezra was the person who carried out the decree to rebuild the wall
and the gate even in troubled times

Ezra 7:6 This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law
         of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king
         granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his
         God upon him. (KJV)
Ezra 7:7 And there went up some of the children of Israel, and of the priests,
         and the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims,
         unto Jerusalem, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king. (KJV)
Ezra 7:8 And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh
         year of the king. (KJV)
Ezra 7:26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the
          king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto
          death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to
          imprisonment. (KJV)

The Seventh year of Artaxerxes was 457 B.C. Now we have mentioned that 7
weeks or 7x7 = 49 years were allocated to the rebuilding of the wall and
street. We find that the last act of restoration is recorded in Neh13:23-..
and this occured exactly 49 years after the work had been first begun by Ezra.

Now 69 weeks = 69x7 = 483 years were to extend to Messiah the Prince. Dating
from 457 B.C. the period ends in 27 A.D. (remember to skip year 0)

It is interesting to note the event that occured at this time. The anointing
of Jesus Christ. This anointing marked the beginning of his work.

Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus
          also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, (KJV)
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,
          and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son;
          in thee I am well pleased. (KJV)

After this Jesus himself "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of 
the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled." Mark 1:14-15
The Messiah had come and with His own lips He announced the termination
of that period of the prophecy. So obviously He was aware of the time period
and so spoke about it.


Now remember how in the middle of the week the Messiah was to cause the
sacrifice to cease. Well this occured at His death, because He was the
Lamb of God, and all the sacrifices had pointed forward to His death.


Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare
            his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
            for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (KJV)

At His death, sacrifices for sin ended: He was the sacrificial lamb.
This is why the curtain dividing the Holy from the Most Holy place 
in the temple was torn from top to bottom, no human hand could have done that.
The tearing of the curtain signified the end of the sacrificial system.
Not that the motions ended there they continued till AD70 but the 
significance, the value of the sacrifices had ceased.


We are told that this was to occur in the middle of the week. i.e. the middle
of a week is 3.5 days. so that 3.5 years after 27 AD the Messiah was crucified.
this was in 30 A.D. then end of the 70th week occured in 34 AD with the 
stoning of Stephen marking the end of the  Jewish dispensation and the 
going of the gospel to the gentiles.

This application of the prophecy maintains a uniform and systematic approach
to the reckoning of the time periods without attempting to change the 
interpretation to fit in or leave out extras. There is no backwards reasoning
I have merely taken the principle set forth in the OT scriptures regarding
the interpretation of symbolic time periods. No mathematics are required to
work out here, we just take the principle and apply it.






Ruben
 


- Laura
--
Lo-yishama od chamam b'artzech shod vashever bigvulayich vekarat
yeshuah (Yeshua) chomotayich ush'arayich t'hila.   -Isaiah 60:18

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can
understand it ?   - Jeremiah 17:9
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