HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:17:08 CST
From:         jsmckinn@IASTATE.EDU
Subject:      stretch and jumbo

(Also an nb on lurking)

I perhaps missed the first posting that explained what
"stretch and jumbo" actually means, but in response to
Patty E's 11-9 posting on non-standard comp classes:

Here at Iowa State, a Summer Enrichment Program (SEP) is
offered to minority students who will enter as fresh-ones
in the fall. For 8 weeks, the students go to a core math
course in the AM, and in the PM to Eng 104 (our first of
2 required sems of frosh comp).

SEP is *not* the same as regular 104 (where minorities
comprise a small percentage of the population--about 3 of
26), though administration likes to think/request that.
In my opinion, it serves as a segue between HS and college,
introducing studetns to some of the rigors they will face
when fall comes and giving them some initial forms of
support (groups of like culture) that seem really important
to their survival.

Smokey McKinney, Iowa State
 (a previous lurker/wallflower/reader/voyeur/
 reading violet/observer/silent one/screener/window shopper/
 browser/shade/bowzer; since I have now found the boldness
 to say something, can I ever reclaim "lurker" status? SM)
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 10:59:00 CST
From:         "brown, lady" <ykflb@TTACS1.TTU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Clinton/Gore

Bill Condon,
	You are grumpy!  I, on the hand, am slightly euphoric.
Haven't been so giddy about the future in years!  (Couldn't
resist teasin' you just a teensy bit.)  Bye.  Lady Falls Brown
From: SWHAMII@VCCSCENT.BITNET (IDANA HAMILTON)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: ncte 93 & cccc 94?
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:16:41 GMT
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*** Reply to note of 11/02/92 09:56
ERIC, CCCC WILL BE IN NASHVILLE, TN, MARCH 16-19, 1993.
From: peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU (Irvin Peckham)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Nancy--Remedial/working
Date: 11 Nov 92 03:41:51 GMT
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Nancy writes:
> I can do lots of good things with corn meal (make some mean hushpuppies
> and killer Mexican cornbread), but I CANNOT turn cornmeal into angel food
> cake!  And I don't know any one who can!!!!
>
I cannot resist inserting the conversation Adam (E.of Eden) had with
Samuel.  As I remember it, Adam said, "You can't make a racehorse
out of a sow," to which Samuel (ever the dreamer of the impossible)
says, "No.  But I can make a very fast sow."

> Too often we are expected to do the impossible --
> Don't hire me to teach X and then give me students who can't read the
> text book ... and then don't turn X into a watered-down version that
> counts for X.

I am not making light of your very real question, Nancy.  I think
what I resist is the notion that I (or you, I hope) are hired to teach
X.  Maybe we were hired to teach X, but we can try to resist that.
When we move from WHAT to WHO we were hired to teach, many of our
"remedial" problems disappear.  Seems to me that in education,
nothing is remedial.  And with regard to your comment below, I
would like to reconsider COLLEGE as a place, not a level of
education.

Best of luck.
Irv
>
> I still don't like the idea of "remedial" work being considered COLLEGE.
> Maybe we ought to create grades 13 and 14 ????
>
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:45:14 CST
From:         "(Bob Taylor)" <bob_taylor@NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Foreign Languages?

On Wed, 4 Nov 1992, Don Langham wrote:

>> Do any of my fellow MBUers know anything about how foreign language
>> departments are incorporating computers into their instructional
>> programs?
>>
>> --Don Langham

Don,

I'm working with the College and the language departments here at
Northwestern on some of these issues.  Here is a list of some innovators in
language learning techniques using information technology.  BTW, much of
this list originally came from my colleague at the University of Chicago,
David Bantz.  David was the project coordinator for Hanzi Assistant
(foreign language courseware) when he was at Dartmouth.

John Barson,
Dept. French, Stanford University
680 Templebar Way
Los Altos, CA  94022

C.C. Cheng
Director, Language Learning Laboratory
U Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
707 S Mathews
Urbana, IL 61801

Edna Coffin
Dept. Near Eastern Studies
3083 Frieze Bldg.
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI  48109

Frank Dominguez
Dept. Romance Languages
221 Dey Hall, CB# 3170
University of North Carolina
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3170

Otmar Foelsche, Manager
Language Resource Center
Dartmouth College
Hanover, NH  03755

Lyn Killean, Director
Language Faculty Resource Center
The University of Chicago
5811 Ellis Ave.
Chicago, IL  60637

James Noblitt
Institute for Academic Technology
at UNC-Chapel Hill
P.O. Box 12017, RTP, NC  27709

Peter Patrikis, Executive Director & Co-ordinator
Consortium for Language Teaching & Learning
111 Grove St., Yale Station
New Haven, CT  06511-6526

Jim Pusack
Director, Language Learning through Multimedia Applications (LLAMA)
266 International Center
Iowa City, IA 52242

Frank Ryan, Director
Language Laboratory
Box E, Brown Station
Brown University
Providence, RI  02912

----Bob Taylor

Manager, Instructional Technology Group
Academic Computing and Network Services
Northwestern University
bob_taylor@nwu.edu             (708) 467-2628     fax (708) 491-3824
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 09:13:03 EST
From:         "(Jim Porter)" <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia and hypermedia
              92 4:44 pm

>(When I gave a talk on hypermedia composing at a university in California 4
>or 5 years ago, the teachers of business writing who were the majority of
>my audience were uniformally disdainful of sounds and sights embedded in
>"serious" work.)

I see pretty much the same attitude in business writing pedagogy
today, alas. Business writing textbooks are now beginning to include short,
"tacked on" sections on the use of email, but there's still nothing
on hypermedia. Of course textbooks include chapters or sections on
the use of visuals, but the attitude is that visuals are derivative,
used to highlight, accentuate, or simplify what you say verbally.

One slight promising sign: the ABC (Association for Business
Communication) conferences and publications are starting to admit
some work in desktop publishing.

--------------------
Jim Porter
Director of Business Writing
Purdue University
jporter@mace.cc.purdue.edu
From: USERTFSH@UMICHUM.BITNET (Ann Green)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Multimedia & hypermedia
Date: 11 Nov 92 04:11:20 GMT
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Nancy,  It's no simple quirk that visuals and sound, considered additives
to words, are termed bells and whistles, eh?  My favorite reaction to this
is Rudolf Arnheim's - someone deeply devoted to visuals - who simply sighed
(literarily) when he wrote that when we followed the Greeks we chose words
over pictures.  He made it sound as though it was a mere turn of events; he
makes me wish I could sigh so well in writing (or pictures, for that matter).
Ann/JCC
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 07:50:11 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yankee Trader Needs Info

Irving, your comments about open admissions and "working class" students
interests me and I'm listening.  Would you tell me what you mean by
"working class" students? If you mean "older" students or those who
are really working their way through college, I would agree.

What I'm apprehensive about is the kind of student who's academic
interests have produced say an 8 or 10 on something like the ACT and
whose hs transcript shows pure mediocrity. Tell me how these students
suddenly become concerned, interested students.  My experience does
not support any hope for "magic" in the classroom.

Nancy Ellis
nse2@ra.mstate.edu
Mississippi State Univ
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:17:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET

Fred,  looks to me like the list is trying to send mail to someone at A&M who
no longer has an active account, or something like that?

John S
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:26:02 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      at risk students

From: David E. Schwalm
Ann, the point I was making is that universities still have not moved to meet
the needs of the students they admit. Students who are poor readers and
writers and who are given no support are likely to to be so frustrated in
              their courses that they benefit little from the experience.
This, on the university's part, is poor planning and a poor use of resources.
Why not provide the writing courses students need rather than making them take
writing courses tha t have those ever so attractive high failure rates.
Universities should not think in terms of "adding remedial courses." They need
to rethink curriculum altogether--with the student in mind.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Organization: Samford University Writing Programs
X-Acknowledge-To: <DHROBERT@SAMFORD>
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:18:11 CST
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in

John Slatin:  It's ok.  I've been mistaken for worse people than David
Schwalm.

dhr
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 14:53:00 CST
From:         "brown, lady" <ykflb@TTACS1.TTU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Al Gore

Bob C.,

	Heuristi/AlGoreithmic!

	You're so clever!

Lady B.
From: jamato@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU ((Joe Amato))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: is the end of "the paper" in
Date: 5 Nov 92 03:04:11 GMT
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What strikes me about discussions of new writing technologies is the degree
to which they're predicated on an understanding of where we are.  I think
John Slatin's posting hits closest to the mark I have in mind.  With
hypertext, with electronic media in general, comes renewed insight into
what writing in a print world has been, and might be.  We're in a fuzzy
discursive domain:  many of us, it would seem, would desire a standard of
measurement---persuasion, say, however construed.  And yet such a
standard---in actuality, an intellectual lever constructed in the midst of
cognitive, cultural and social constraints---presumes that we have a solid
place on which to stand.

And it's precisely this place, this ground, which has been challenged by
the advent of new media.

It's not that we can or should find ourselves pushing forward without
apprehensions.  It's more to the point, I think, to begin to ask ourselves
some fundamental questions, questions regarding the sundry processes of
composition---visual, aural, written---and how our creative activities
modulate across notions of consciousness, subjectivity and reception.
Questions, that is, about the nature of our apprehensions.

Hypertext is "free" neither in monetary nor conceptual terms.   It
represents a redistribution of institutional power across different
coordinates, and against the current mainstream of print---though precisely
in what ways is itself a question worthy of continued consideration.
Writers, single or in collaboration, will still have to consider their
readers, both in structural and in experiential terms.  Readers will still
be faced with writerly constraints, single or multiple.  Expectations are
bound to change, and to blur, on both sides of the creative process---and
these changes will, in turn, alter our response to the various media---but
the net power will remain potent and potentially open to usurpation.

To end on the obligatory shaggy dog note, and one apropos to the day:  I
think we have some obligation in all of this in helping to make for a
democratic process, in promoting access to as much as possible for as many
as possible.

Joe Amato
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 11:38:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) 1994 CCCC in Music City USA (12)

Entry: 12
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 13:03:12 EST
From: IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.COM" Robert Royar, (C&CD Moderator)
Message-id: <1992Nov07.130312.v7.010.3.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject: 1994 CCCC in Music City USA (12)
Reply-to: "Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

Now that we've settled the issue of where CCCC 1994 will be held. I hope
that it will be in the OpryLand Hotel. I'm not much of a Country Music fan
but the OL Hotel is some site. I stayed there on vacation once as part of a
package Kathy got through her work. It was *really* amazing (and expensive).
The Conservatory with the Harp serenade each evening was quite a place.
It's an acre or more under glass with tropical vegetation and such--running
streams, swimming pools, movie stars (black gold, Texas tea).

They do lots of conventions--had three going on while we were there.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "The guerrilla lives among the people like the fish in the sea."
                                                              - Mao Zedong


------------------------------
From: peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU (Irvin Peckham)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Books on Teaching Writing
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:40:49 GMT
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For a composition pedagogy course, I cannot imagine not using
Elbow's Writing with Power and James Moffett's Teaching the
Universe of Discourse.  I really don't know how anyone could
have a serious picture of the forces defining composition pedagogy
without reading Berlin's Rhetoric and Reality.  Lindemann and Tates
An Introduction to Composition Studies gets things rolling.
I would also put together some articles, starting with Hairston's
Winds of Change, bracketed by her last article in CE (forget the
title), with a couple of responses of the sort Schlib would write.
I would also have a couple of articles focusing on Dartmouth--
Harris' Beyond Dartmouth is a good start here.  Of course one should
go back to the original Dixon and Mueller books.
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:19:58 CST
From:         Bob Boston <S2.RSB@ISUMVS.IASTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Notes on lurking from behind the wallflowers.

Wayne, you certainly got one message through, and it's good to hear your voice
 again.

Bob Boston
Iowa State University
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 09:24:00 AST
Comments:     <11NOV92.10171482.0068.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         AB04000 <INKSHED@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Call for submissions

We call subscribers' attention to the following

CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS:

The Winter 1993 issue of _Textual Studies in Canada_ will be edited by
James A. Reither and Douglas Vipond.  A collaborative, interdisciplinary
journal, _TSC_ examines how texts are composed, read, and defined according
to situational and cultural presuppositions.  As well, _TSC_ explores
notions of writer, text, and reader, to make visible the communal and
consensual interaction involved in authorship.  The editors of this issue
will be especially eager to receive submissions (of 20 or fewer pages)
that focus directly on these kinds of questions:  Insofar as the meanings
of texts are to be found largely in their relations to the discourse and
texts of others, what are the specific situations out of which given
texts arise?  What is there in those situations that motivates writing?

Submissions intended for this issue must be received by 30 April 1993.
Contact or send MSS to

    James A. Reither (inkshed@unb.ca) / Douglas Vipond (vipond@unb.ca)
    English / Psychology
    St. Thomas University
    Fredericton, NB  E3B 5G3
      Canada

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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:03:08 -0500
From:         SULKES@UCBEH.BITNET
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

I would too.  they sound fascinating.  Is this a one-
quarter course? one semester? one year?  I'd be
interested too in knowing how long it takes students
to learn the rudiments of Hypercard.  Stan Sulkes.
"sulkes@ucbeh.san.edu"
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:53:09 -1000
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Resource Help!!!!

On Mon, 2 Nov 1992 00gjsiering@BSUVAX1.BITNET wrote:

> A plead for help to everyone out there:
> I am in desperate need for some background reading about LAN's and WAN's and
> how they both fit into writing programs. . . .
> I jumped (or was tossed) into a computer
> classroom and MBU with both feet, and now I feel the sudden need for a life
> preserver.  Does anyone out there know of great books and/or articles that wil
> get me moving????
> Drowning in a sea of information,
> Greg Siering
> Ball State University

Greg, this may sound cold, but you really don't need a life preserver.
Swim around a bit.  Kick your feet.  Dig in with your hands.  Pull.  Play
with the LAN/WAN.  Forget the manuals, articles, etc., on how to swim.
Freestyle.  I'm beginning to think that learning how to use computers is
more like learning to ride a surfboard or a bicycle than learning how to
assemble a metal shelf.  The best way to learn is to jump in and do it.
In our computer classroom, I've observed that colleagues who feel they
need to read and understand all the manuals, take a dozen classes and
attend a couple dozen workshops, and take copious, step-by-tep notes on
how to get to the opening menu still don't use the interactive, networking
capabilities of Daedalus.  They use the computers as isolated, stand-alone
word-processing or CAI stations.

Jim Shimabukuro
still soaking wet in my first semester in a LAN classroom
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:55:14 EST
From:         Roni Keane <VKEANE@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?
              8 Nov 1992 10:09:26 -0600 from <jamato@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Joe,

I would be interested in looking at those stacks your students wrote for
your technical writing class. Would you and the authors care to share them?

                                    --Roni Keane
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:16:38 CDT
From:         Jim Raymond <JRAYMOND@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU>
Subject: Re: stretch and jumbo comp classes

Nancy,
    Boy, this conversation about working class students really takes
me back twenty years to when I heard Mina Shaughnessy addressing 4Cs
in New Orleans, and then subsequently visited her Basic Writing
Program at City College, which had just begun an ambitious open
admissions program.  I guess you're familiar with Shaughnessy's
great book, Errors and Expectations (Oxford UP).  What I found
fascinating about it was Mina's ability to see writing from the
perspective of the sorts of students we're talking about--to see a
kind of logic in their errors.  It's a specific instance of
what David Schwalm was referring to, I think, when he talked about
seeing instruction from the point of view of the working class.
    What struck me most about Mina, however, was her personal
charisma. She emanated a sense of caring that made her
students want to succeed, and made the teachers who worked with her
want to work even harder, more imaginatively.
    I was also impressed by how she defined success when I asked her
what percentage of her students were successful.  You have to
remember, she told me, that these are very high risk students, so we
consider ourselves successful if we get twenty or thirty percent of
them to go on to subsequent courses.  I think I have the figures
right--it was a long time ago.  Anyway, the figure was surprisingly
low; and I suppose her having realistic expectations protected her
from being frustrated by the impossibility of what you describe as
the TASK.
    One more thing about Mina.  She didn't regard her students as
fixed entities, eternal incompetents.  She seemed to remember that
their ability to succeed with books had a lot to do with factors that
could be traced to early childhood, home life, role models or the
lack thereof, access to books and to people who read, "bedtime
stories" as Shirley Heath later discovered--and all of this traced not
only to class origins, but to the social and political forces that
construct classes.
    Wow.  Sorry for rambling on so.  It's a topic that has interested
me for a long time now.  Did you say you taught in Saint Bernard
Parish?  Where?  I taught for a few years at St. Aloysius, right on
the edge of the French Quarter.  Had students who couldn't read
the Picayune, but Lord, could they ever decipher a race track  form.--Jim
 Raymond
  Director of Freshman Composition
  English Department
  University of Alabama
  (205) 348-6488
  JRaymond@English.as.ua.edu
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:15:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Multimedia and hypermedia

Gary Beeson's students are surely right to be skeptical of the claims made
implicitly by many visual "supplements" to reports, etc.; but they should be
no less skeptical of the claims made by the words on the page.  I suspect the
different responses have something to do with the way visuals seem not to be
making *claims* about the world, but rather to be *presenting* the world "as
it is"; by contrast, text often highlights the problematic nature ofits claims
(though I can't say I see that very often in the tech writing I encounter, not
that I encounter much other than software and hardware manuals).

But I found your message a fascinating one, Gary: I don't remember another
occasion (on MBU) when students have been reported as defending text as a
primary carrier of "truth."

John Slatin
UT Austin
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