From: scot@hpfiseh.fc.hp.com (Scot E. Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: shotgun facts request
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:15:55 GMT

In response to:

# Subject: Wanted: Shotgun thread from a while back / other sg basic info
# Message-ID: <lairdb.715300870@crash>
# Date: 1 Sep 92 01:54:58 GMT
# Sender: magnum@mimsy.umd.edu
# Lines: 12
# Approved: gun-control@cs.umd.edu
# 
# A few months ago we had a pretty fact-filled thread going on 
# shotguns; I'm hoping somebody saved it and could mail me a copy.
# 
# Any other articles, of course, in the nature of a general intro
# to the concept, would be equally welcome.
# 
# Thanks!


I have kept the postings I made regarding shotguns, games, reloading, etc.
Sorry I can't give you more but I hope this helps - 



TRAP vrs SKEET vrs SPORTING CLAYS:

Here is as brief an answer as I can give you about the three (actually 5) games
you mentioned.  I am dead sure about the ATA trap section, the rest is as
near as I can recall, take it with a grain of salt.


American trap shooting, as governed by the Amateur Trap Shooting is
composed of three different events.  Singles, Handicap and Doubles.  All
events are shot on a field consisting of a house 5 runners spaced ~ 12 degrees
apart and extending from 14.6 meters (16 yards) to 24.7 meters (27 yards) 
behind the house (top view shown below).


                       *****************************
                        ***************************
                         *************************
                          ***********************
                           *********************
                            *******************
                             *****************
                              ***************
             TARGET PATH       *************
                                ***********
                                 *********
                                  *******
                                   *****
                                    ***
                                     *
                                    ___ 
             HOUSE --------------> |___|

  


                                 . . . . .
                                .  . . .  .
                               .  .  .  .  .
             RUNNERS ---->    .   .  .  .   .
                             .   .   .   .   .
                            .    .   .   .    .
                           .    .    .    .    .
                          .     .    .    .     .
                         .     .     .     .     .
                        .      .     .     .      .
                       .      .      .      .      .
                      .       .      .      .       .



Targets are thrown out of the house in a random arc but always at the same 
height.  A total of 25 targets (50 in doubles) are shot in each sub-event on 
any one field.  There are typically 5 contestants at a time, one on each 
runner.  Beginning with the contestant on the far left runner, each contestant 
in turn calls for and receives a target (2 in doubles) then fires one shot at 
each target.  After each contestant has fired 5 shots (10 in doubles), the 
contestants move one position to the right and the contestant on the far right 
moves to the far left station.  Typically, a total of 100 targets are shot
at by each contestant in any event, singles, handicap or doubles.

Contestants all stand at the 16 yard line in singles and doubles.
Contestants stands at various distances from 17 to 27 yards in handicap,
depending upon past performance.

Equipment is limited to shotguns no larger than 12 gauge and shells of a
maximum of 1-1/8 oz of shot and 3 dram equiv. powder.

International trap shooting differs quite a bit from ATA trap.  A top view
of the field is shown below.


              *****************************************
               ***************************************
                *************************************
                 ***********************************
                  *********************************
                   *******************************
                    *****************************
                     ***************************
    TARGET PATH --->  *************************
                       ***********************
                        *********************
                         *******************
                          *****************
                           ***************
                            *  *  *  *  *
                           _______________
    BUNKER -------------->|_______________|

  



    PADS -----------------> .  .  .  .  .


Instead of one machine in the house, there are 15 machines in the bunker,
three per pad.  Each machine is pre-set for an angle and height and does
not vary during any sub-event, however, the competitor does not know from which
of the 3 machines related to any particular pad the target will be thrown.
The targets are thrown much faster than in ATA trap.  A sub event consists
of 25 targets but they are shot differently than in ATA trap.  As soon as
the competitor on pad 1 (the left most pad) shoots, he/she moves to the
right behind the competitor on pad 2.  When the competitor on pad 2
shoots, he/she moves to pad 3 and is replaced by the competitor from pad 1.
This pattern of shoot/move/shoot/move is repeated non-stop until each
competitor has fired at 25 targets.  One of the main differences is that a
competitor may fire at all targets 2 times, a hit on either shot counts as
a dead target.

Equipment is limited to shotguns no larger than 12 gauge and shells of a
maximum of 1 oz of shot and 3-1/4 dram equiv. powder.


American skeet is shot on a field as shown below.



   LOW HOUSE                                                       HIGH HOUSE
   TARGET PATH ---> ********                           ********* <-TARGET PATH
                            **********         ********
                                      *********
                            **********         *********
   HIGH      __   _ ********              _             ******** _   __   LOW
   HOUSE--> |__| |_|1                    |_|8                  7|_| |__|<-HOUSE



                      _                                      _
                     |_|2                                  6|_|

                                _                   _
                               |_|3               5|_|
                                          _
                                         |_|4


The field consists of 8 pads, 7 of which are arranged in a semi circle and
the eighth at the center of the semi-circle, and 2 houses where the target 
throwers reside.  The targets are always thrown in exactly the same direction 
and at exactly the same height.  The target out of the high house starts at 
approx 3.5 meters off the ground and is thrown nearly horizontally.  The 
target out of the low house starts at nearly ground level and at the point 
the target paths cross, is the same height as the high house target, 
approximately 3 meters.

Once again, a total of 25 targets are fired at by each competitor.  The
competitors take turns shooting from the pads in the order they are
numbered with all competitors finishing each pad before proceeding.  A
perfect round of skeet is shot as noted below:

Pad 1 - One high house target, one low house target, one of each thrown
        simultaneously (known as a pair).  Nearly all competitors shoot the 
        target from the house they are standing closest to first when shooting
        a pair.

Pad 2 - One high house target, one low house target, one pair.

Pad 3 - One high house target, one low house target.

Pad 4 - One high house target, one low house target.

Pad 5 - One high house target, one low house target.

Pad 6 - One high house target, one low house target, one pair.

Pad 7 - One high house target, one low house target, one pair.

Pad 8 - One high house target, two low house targets.

If a competitor misses a target, he/she will immediately attempt to shoot
an identical target again ONLY ON THE FIRST MISS.  When this happens, the
last low house target on pad 8 is eliminated.

Equipment is limited to shotguns no larger than 12 gauge and shells of a
maximum of 1-1/8 oz of shot and 3 dram equiv. powder for the 12 gauge
contest.  There are typically also 20 gauge, 28 gauge and .410 bore
contests as well; I don't know what the requirements are for equipment
here.


International skeet is shot on a field identical to the American field, but
the competitors must start with the butt of their guns touching an
imaginary line running around their hips at the point of the hip bones.
In the previous three games, contestants are allowed to shoulder their guns
before calling for a target.


Sporting Clays is widely varied.  Most courses consist of 50 targets but
they can be thrown in limitless configurations.  This game requires the 
competitors to start with the butt of their guns below their arm pit until
they see the target.

This is the fastest growing of the shotgun sports.  It was originally
intended to simulate a variety of hunting situations and is an enormous
amount of fun!


If you're interested in more detail, I suggest you visit your local library.
If you're interested specifically in ATA trap, the address for the ATA is:

  Amateur Trapshooting Association
  601 West National Road
  Vandalia, Ohio  45377


Good Shootin'!

-Scot


CHOKE BORE INFO:

The gauge number of a shotgun is the number of lead spheres the same
diameter of the bore it takes to equal 1 pound mass.  The density of lead
is 710 pounds/cubic foot.

The common shotgun bore diameters are then:

  10 gauge = .775 inches
  12 gauge = .729 inches
  16 gauge = .662 inches
  20 gauge = .615 inches
  28 gauge = .550 inches

These figures are all nominal and in fact, many competition guns have bores
larger than nominal to increase the velocity of standard ammunition.  One
barrel maker here in the United States makes a 12 gauge barrel with a bore
of .780 inches!

Choke in a shotgun is the amount of restriction from the bore to the
muzzle.  To determine choke, the bore as well as the muzzle inside diameter
should be measured due to variations in the diameter of the bore.  Briley,
a large manufacturer of specialized barrel liners, choke tubes, etc rates
their chokes as follows:

  .000 restriction - cylinder
  .005 restriction - skeet
  .010 restriction - improved cylinder
  .015 restriction - light modified
  .020 restriction - modified
  .025 restriction - improved modified
  .030 restriction - light full
  .035 restriction - full
  .040 restriction - extra full

The chokes most typically used in shooting American trap are the improved
modified or the full.  Many older guns have much more restriction than that
listed in this table.  As ammunition has improved over the years with
better wads and lower pressures, the need for such tight chokes has really
been eliminated for most shooting and in fact, is a detrement in many
cases.

-Scot


CHOKE SELECTION:

# 
# By the way, is there any book I can get to help figure out when to use what
# choke?  I use a Skeet choke for Skeet, Improved Cyl for Trap, and an Improved
# (U)/Modified(O) combination for Trap doubles.  But I haven't the foggiest
# of when I need to change chokes for Sporting Clays.  I know I can pattern
# my gun, but what is considered an optimum pattern?
# 

You are the first person I have spoken with who actually uses too open a
choke for the sports you described.  To choose a choke, you need to
estimate the distance at which you will be breaking the target.  Sporting
clays is by far the most difficult to judge due to the wide variety of
situations encountered.  Let me see if I can give you a "rule of thumb"..

In trap singles, you stand 16 yards behind the thrower.  The average trap
shooter breaks the targets at around 40 yards.  The chokes used typically
range from modified to full.  This means that the actual pattern range is
enormous since a choke is considered modified with as small as .015"
restriction while a choke is considered full with as much as .045"
restriction.  I personally shoot an improved-modified (NOT Improved
Cylinder) choke for trap singles, handicap (27 yard) and the second shot in
trap doubles.  My particular improved-modified choke is .025" restriction.
I chose this choke by 1) patterning my gun and 2) noteing the way the
targets break when I shoot them.  My choices were modified (.015"
restriction), improved-modified and full (.035" restriction).  At 40 yards,
the modified choke in my gun with my loads gave about a 36" pattern that
was "full of holes" meaning that there were several areas on the paper that
were big enough for a target to fit with no holes.  The improved-modified,
on the other hand, gives about a 30" pattern that is very uniform.  The
extra 10 yards in handicap is a concern but I have chosen to shoot #8 shot
from the 16 yard line and #7.5 from the 27 yard line.  My #7.5 loads
pattern enough tighter than my #8 loads that my patterns are nearly
identical 10 yards apart.

For trap doubles, I use the modified choke for the first shot.  This is
because the first shot in trap doubles is typically broken at around 30
yards and at that distance, the pattern from the modified choke looks fine.  

I normally tell people to choose the choke they think will work and then go
1 choke more open because as components improve, patterns from the same
choke get tighter.  Todays modified choke is typically as tight at 40 yards
as a full was 20 years ago, due entirely to the improvements in shells.

In your case, I would say go 1 choke tighter than you have been using in
trap.  I don't know what your particular chokes measure but I would use at
least a modified for singles and perhaps a modified/full for doubles
although, if you have a tight chokes, your combination for doubles could be
ok.

One way to judge is by how hard the birds break.  If you get right in the
center of one, you should just "powder" it.  If you never get anything but
big pieces,  you are shooting too open a choke and because of smaller
pellet concentration, you will have birds that should break but don't.  If
you are getting alot of "dust" off targets but they don't break, you could
be using too open a choke.

# I sort of think of the chokes as gears... if I get a 30-inch pattern with
# Skeet at 16, then I need to change to Improved to get a 30-inch pattern at
# 20.  Will this type of approach work?
# 

This is the correct approach but as I said, there is such a wide variety of
restrictions called the same thing, the only way to know how your
particular gun shoots is to pattern it.  A skeet choke typically has about
a .005" restriction and this is because the distance at which most skeet
targets are broken is between 5 and 15 yards.

When I shoot sporting clays, I try and relate the shot I have to make to a
shot in either skeet or trap, something with which I am vastly more
familiar.  I typically shoot #8 shot and then choose a choke based on my
estimated "shot relation".  If the shot is an incomming over the head type,
like pad 8 in skeet, I use a skeet choke.  If it is a springing teal
launched from 20 yards or less, I will use Improved/cylinder, maybe
modified.  One of the courses I shoot has a station where the targets come
out over your head and move away from you.  It's a true pair and the first
target is broken at about 30 yards, the other at about 50.  I use improved
-cylinder, improved-modified for this station.

To give you somewhere to start, estimate the distance at which you will
break the target and then use the following table:

  distance  |   choke
____________|___________
            |
  0-15 yds  | skeet
            |
 10-25 yds  | improved-cylinder
            |
 20-35 yds  | modified
            |
 30-45 yds  | improved-modified
            |
 40-55 yds  | full
            |
  > 50 yds  | prayer


As far as books go, I think one of the best books I have read which covers
a wider variety of disciplines is "Finding the Extra Target" by John Linn
and some senator who wanted to get his name on the book.  John Linn is the
winningest coach in Collegiate Trap shooting and unfortunately, just passed
away this year.  The book is available from, I believe Shotgun Sports
magazine.  I unfortunately have loaned my copy out so I can't give you any
more specifics right now but I will remind myself to do so in 2 weeks or
so.

Good shooting,

-Scot


LUP, PSI, and reloading with WST and WSL

Recently, Jim Philips (james@csn.org) posted a noted concerning LUP vrs.
PSI readings and it was followed up by a response from Ted 
(tcs@cbnewsb.cb.att.com).  This is a follow up to that note plus some 
musings regarding WST and WSL loading.

The primary reason that PSI and LUP (lead units of pressure) are not easily
converted is that PSI is a linear scale while LUP is not.  LUP is measured 
by firing a load in a test barrel which has a small piston positioned 
perpendicular to the bore and exposed to the chamber.  This piston pushes 
against a lead (in the case of LUP) or copper (CUP) slug, deforming the slug
in some manner related to pressure.  The deformation is very small so the 
volume delta caused by the motion of the piston is negligible.  The 
length of the slug is measured before and after firing and the difference in 
length is used to look up the LUP reading from a table related to the 
particular slug being used.

PSI is measured using a strain gauge in the form of a piezoelectric device
or a balanced resistive bridge glued to the outside of the test chamber.
This method allows pressure/time readings to be taken so much more
information is available.  Ohler now offers a chronograph which has a
strain gauge channel that allows the user to affix a strain gauge to the
chamber area of the barrel of a firearm and gather pressure information as
well as velocity so if you are really interested, you can "do-it-yourself".

As for felt recoil, I have found that the pressure figures only give you an
approximate idea of the recoil you will feel.  I believe that the
pressure-time curves are really necessary to get an accurate feel for the
recoil developed.

Now on to WST and WSL....

I load WST and have fired WSL loaded shells.  I switched from 452AA to WST
when Winchester (Olin) quit offering the 452AA.  I love it!  I shoot:

        Winchester AA Hull
        Win 209 primer
        Win WST 19.5 gr powder
        Windjammer wad
        1 1/8 oz. of (#8 for 16 yards) (#7.5 for 27 yards)

This is between the 2-3/4 and 3 dram loads listed by Winchester but having
chronographed these loads fired in a 34" .745 bore barrel, I find they are 
traveling at approximately 1245 fps.  One other nice feature of the WST is
that it is somewhat more coarse than the 452AA and doesn't "sneak out" around
my powder bushings quite as badly as the 452AA did.

I have often wondered why manufactures do not list an "exact recipe" to
load shells like the factory does.  In the reloading column of Shooting
Times magazine a few (2 or 3 I think) months ago was an excellent 
explanation; they don't list them because they change regularly.  The fact 
is, the factory could care less what mix of powder they use as long as the 
performance of the shell is within specifications.  Just this last weekend, 
I spoke with a distributor about this very thing.  He claimed that not long 
after the Super Handicap (silver) Winchester shells came out, he went to a 
state trap shoot and just out of curiosity, got everyone who would to donate 
a shell to him to cut open.  He then displayed the powder and claimed to have 
found at least 4 different loads (some blends) in the shells he tested.  He 
said many of them certainly appeared to be WST (as did the examples shown in
an article by Shotgun Sports magazine) but there were definitely differences 
in certain shells.

As for felt recoil from the load I use, I estimate that it is approximately
1/2 that of the old load I used which was:

        Winchester AA Hull
        Win 209 primer
        Win 452AA 19.5 gr powder
        Win WAA12 wad
        1 1/8 oz. of (#8 for 16 yards) (#7.5 for 27 yards)

I attribute the difference partly to the powder and partly to the wad since
I have used WAA12 wads in place of the Windjammers and found the recoil to
be noticeably more.  The Windjammer wads seem to have a softer plastic (as
do the WAA12SL) which helps them seal the lower pressure loads and the
collapsible column is a different design which probably accounts for some of
the felt recoil difference.

You may or may not have an opinion about the Windjammers.  They are an 8
petal design as opposed to the Winchester 4 petal.  They are typically 70%
the cost of the Winchester wads and in patterning them in my gun, I find
they give a slightly tighter pattern then the Winchesters.  I attribute
this to less shot deformation due to lower pressures.  My major complaint
with these wads used to be that the petals were often deformed enough that
some shot would end up on the outside of the wad when loaded in my loader.
This problem is solved by running the wads through my electric clothes
dryer for 2.5 minutes on medium heat!  I dump 500 wads into a nylon hose
washing bag which is a very loose mesh bag with a zippered side, and run
them in the dryer.  The petals open up just like a flower and they load
perfectly!  CAUTION:  I HAVE TRIED MORE TIME IN THE DRYER AND HAVE ACTUALLY
MELTED THE PETALS ON THE ENDS WITH 3.5 MINUTES.  START LOW AND WORK YOUR
WAY UP!

I have also loaded the following:

        Winchester AA Hull
        Win 209 primer
        Win WST 19.5 gr powder
        Windjammer wad or WAA12SL wad
        1 oz. of #9 

Again, the Windjammer wad seems to give less recoil and surprisingly enough,
loads just fine with only 1 oz. of shot.

I know this sounds like an advertisement for these wads but I just can't
say enough good about them.  Included in every bag is a loading table with
a fair amount of data for different powder/hull combinations including
WSL but, as of the last batch I bought, not WST.


SHOT SHELL LOADING

There are a multitude of variables affecting shot shell loads and case life.
I will give you my 2 cents worth and then you are on your own.

1) Don't wase your time with cases other than:
  
  A) Winchester Western compression formed cases.  These are all marked 
     AA or SUPER X.

  B) Remington Peters SP or RXP cases.

  C) Federal Gold Medal.

The WW and the RP are tapered wall cases, the Federals are straight walled.  
Any case other than the ones listed is likely to have a paper base section or
at least be a 2 piece base.  Neither of these designs will hold up to many
(more than 1) loading.  As it seems you are interested in case longevity, you
would be wasting your time with anything but a single piece molded case.

In the interest of quality and reliability, I suggest you choose one type
of case/wad/powder and stick with it.  You can usually get any of the above
mentioned cases at your local trap range for 4-5 cents/hull for once fired
cases.  If you can't find any locally, call the Kay Ohye Corp. at
908-297-0364.  They will sell you all you want for 4 cents each, you pay
shipping.

You undoubtedly will have to fiddle with your loader to get it to crimp
well.  I have two things to say here, wad pressure means very little and
the crimp starter is more important than you think.  In their latest
reloading book, Winchester has a section about wad pressure; I quote:

  "Wad pressure, when using Ball Powder, is not critical.  Any pressure from
   20 to 100 pounds is acceptable.  The only criterion is that enough pressure
   must be used to insure a good crimp.  A safe level to use is 40 pounds, 
   from which the loader may vary at his own choice to get the best crimp.  
   Wads must be seated on the powder (no air space should exist between was 
   and powder).
   
   It is suggested that you do not load any components that require more than
   100 pounds wad pressure."

I define a good crimp as one which causes all the "petals" at the top of the 
case to exactly meet in the center and enough of a "lip" at the top of the
shell so that there is a slight amount of "roll" to keep the shell crimped.

			  _                 _
			 / |_______________| \
			|                     |
			|                     |
			|                     |
			|                     |
			|                     |
			|                     |


            (cross section of top of properly crimped shell)

If you get this type crimp, even the ratty looking shells will stay shut.
I usually load my hulls 8 times and then pitch the whole batch.  I load
only Winchester AA hulls and a typical batch of once fired shells will
contain about 2 or 3 out of a case (500) that are split down the side.
These get pitched and the rest are usually fine.  After about 5 or 6
loadings, I start looking at the hulls pretty closely as I am loading them.
Any splits from the start of the crimp "petal" that extend to the top of
the petal cause the hull to be pitched.  These shells simply will not crimp
properly.  Also, any shells which split from the base of the "petal
downward toward the base of the hull enough to cause any bulging of the top
of the shell when crimped get pitched.  I estimate that approximately
80-85% of the AA hulls make it through 8 loadings (not counting the factory
loading).

Finally, I will plug my favorite trap load.  I use 19.3 grains of
Winchester Super Target powder, Winchester primers, Windjammer wads and, of
course, 1.125 oz. of 8 (sixteen yard and first doubles shot) or 7.5
(handicap and second doubles shot) shot.  I have found this to be an
extremely consistent and light recoil load with a velocity of approximately
1200 fps. from a back bored barrel.

Good luck.


RELOADER COMPARISON

I reload alot of shells, about 20,000 - 30,000 / year.  As far as equipment
goes, I recommend buying the fastest and most reliable you can afford.

There are three main shot shell reloading equipment manufacturers in the
USA.  They are: MEC, Hornady, and Posness-Warren.  These are listed in
ascending order of cost and quality.

MEC makes the most complete line of loaders.  Posness is high end only and
Hornady currently lists only 2 models, the DL-366 and the APEX-91.

I load with a DL-366 and a MEC-650.  I really like the DL-366, I dislike
the MEC but I only use it for 28 ga. and the volumes are low.  I am very
interested in the APEX-91 as it can be purchased for approx $100.00 new in a
manual advance, bare-bones configuration and then upgraded or can be
purchased new for approx $225.00 in a fully auto advance much like the 366
($225.00 also) with some additional features.

The Posness loaders start in price around $300.00 and go to > $800.00.
There is no doubt that they are the finest loaders made but I have adjusted
them for some of my mechanically challenged friends and the 366 is alot
more user friendly.

The MEC loaders are all stamped sheet metal and in my opinion are not
constructed with as much integrity as the Hornady or the Posness.  They do
offer a wide selection (~$80.00 to $400.00).  My particular dislike with the
650 ($150.00) I have is that the shot drop tube is poorly designed and the
shot will wedge in the tube at a diameter reduction area.  The 12 gauge
loaders will not have this problem.  The physical force require to load with
the 650 is approximately 3X as high as the Hornady.

Ask yourself this when selecting that loader: Including purchasing 500 once
fired hulls at $.04 each, loading 3000 shells will cost around $400.00.  In
only 5 years, the cost of a good loader compared to a cheap loader will be
completely masked by the cost of the components.  Do I want to put up with
a cheap loader? 

The quality of the shells produced is not an issue.  All the loaders will
do approximately the same job.  I have loaded many, many rounds with an old
DL-105 that I bought used for $35.00 and you couldn't tell a shell loaded
with that loader from one loaded with the DL-366.

Now, as far as the hulls go.  Choose only one piece, compression formed
plastic shells.  These are: Winchester AA and Super-X, Remington Peters RXP
or the current equivelant, Federal Gold Medal.  These are the big three in
the US and there may be some others, I just don't know about them.  The
reason a one piece hull is important is to prevent hull/base separation.

I load only AA shells because I have a zillion of them.  I have loaded
Remingtons and Federals and have been satisfied with them but I like
shooting Winchester factory loads and therefore accumulate AA hulls.  I
load 19.5 grains of Winchester Super Target powder, a Windjammer wad, a
Winchester 209 primer and 1-1/8 oz. of either 8 shot (for trap singles) or
7-1/2 shot (for trap handicap).  This load is between the Winchester
published data for a 2-3/4 and 3 dram load and I have chronographed these
shells out of a back bored (.745 diameter) barrel and found them to be
approximately 1240 fps.  The felt recoil is very low compared to a factory
Winchester AA 3 dram load.

This is alot of sketchy info to digest.  If you have any more detailed
questions, blast me some email or post them.

-Scot