From: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law)
Subject: Re: Crime in Canada vs U.S. Why the difference?
Reply-To: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
Organization: Nagoya Institute of Technology, Nagoya ,Japan.
	<TODD.93Jan22051952@ceres.elcom.nitech.ac.jp>
	<1993Jan23.014206.5221@athena.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 06:32:04 GMT
N-Reply-To: cmk@athena.mit.edu's message of 23 Jan 93 01:42:06 GMT


In article <1993Jan23.014206.5221@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:

>the problems relate much more to the poverty and hopelessness
>that exist now, not slavery from 200 years ago, though that is an
>indirect cause. did you also consider the possibility that
>the difference could be made up simply by the greater heterogeneity
>of American society, combined with other factors?

I would say the slavery was a direct cause of the current situation.
Why else would hispanics and orientals be in the economic passing
lane?  - because they weren't demoralized and dehumanized.

>your supposition of "the cold getting rid of the riff-raff" is inaccurate.
>even in the US there are many homeless people in cold cities (been to NYC
>lately?) and it would be *much* easier for them to move to warmer climes.
>why don't they?

Maybe for an American, New York is cold, but it is about the same as
Toronto or Vancouver, the only two cities, someone could conceivably
live outside in for very long.  Montreal has a lot of underground 
hideaways, so that also might be possible using the metro and such.
Like I said, try 40 below.  You die.

>and given that they do stay in the cold climate, don't they have more
>incentive for some crimes, like theft, because of the danger of being
>in the cold?

We were talking about violent crimes, but if someone steals gloves
from Eaton's to stay warm, I can live with that.

>wrong again. the numbers i have show higher purchasing power in the
>US than Canada. regardless of the exact numbers,
>the difference in wealth between the US and Canada is not significant
>enough to explain even a small portion of the crime discrepancy. the
>real answer is in the sentence which begins "In a wealthy society...".
>the poor don't have to resort to violent means, true--they elect 
>politicians to steal for them. happens in the US a lot too, though
>less than Canada

As I said, it is the ease with which one can get wealth that matters.
If you mean to say that welfare itself is a crime, then I say it's
ungenerous attitudes like yours force people to give up hope of
an honest living, and commit crime in the first place.  Unfortunately
American generosity has been abused to the point where it has almost
disappeared.  Perhaps Canada has had a little less abuse.

>baloney. this is an outdated stereotype. the fact is that the relative
>growth in urban population compared with Canadian has been much higher
>in Canada than in the states. the reason for smaller cities in Canada
>is simply smaller population. metro Toronto contains over 10% of the
>population of the country--no such proportionately-sized city exists
>in the US. a country of 100 people could have 100% urban population
>and virtually no crime.

The proportionality arguement is kind of bogus.  Let's just say that
'big' means cities over 1 million.  And I still say that big cities
have more violent crime per capita.

>Canadian cities are catching up to American ones. Toronto is a shadow
>of its former self, IMO.

Agree with you there.  I sort of consider it an extension of the US.


Todd
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