HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sybok@m11-113-5.MIT.EDU (The Terminator)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: PEN GUN
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:46:23 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <53086@mimsy.umd.edu> jackson@bluemoon.rn.com (jack cole) writes:
#dbruce@athena.mit.edu (David M Bruce) writes:
#
## In article <53004@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-1.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writ
## #Where could I get a pen gun?
## 
## Nowhere, they're illegal (at least in MA).
#
#Not true!  They are legal in the US, baring local laws, if you get a 
#"all other weapos" tax 

Is this a $200 tax plus a background check?

#stamp. Armitage International makes the "hornet" pen gun which comes 
#in cal's .22lr, .25, .380 and 9mm.
#
#Another american company is coming out with one that is considered legal
#as a pistol by BATF because before firing you swivel it part way down 
#so tht it has a "grip".

Cool!
From: david@iex.iex.com (David Hancock)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:12:22 GMT
Organization: IEX Corporation, Dallas

In article <53044@mimsy.umd.edu> rtaraz@ascoli.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz) writes:
##>>>> On 10 Apr 92 23:21:05 GMT, rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White) said:
#
#
#rrw> I have a video (the name of which escapes me at the moment) in
#rrw> which they fire tracers into a gas tank about 1/3 full of gas.
#
Lots of myth deflating stuff deleted
#
#rrw> In another scene, a fellow selling soft body armour, shoots
#rrw> himself point-blank with a .44 mag - no problem and then shoots
#rrw> another fellow point-blank with a rifle (I forget the caliber).
#rrw> The shootee is standing on one foot at the time and the impact
#rrw> doesn't even make him lose his balance.
#
#
#Now, lets see here, how can somebody get hit with a bullet from a
#rifle and not loose his balance?  I dont care how good the armour is,
#you do loose your balance! (or maybe I am mistaking, I never stopped a
#bullet with my body)  
#

If we assume the weight of the shooter plus the weapon approximates the
"victim's" weight, and the "victim" loses his balance *due to impact alone*,
would not the shooter lose his balance as well?

-- 
David Hancock -*- IEX Corporation
Mail: 1400 Preston Road, Suite 350, Plano, Texas  75093
Email: [uunet!]iex!david -*- Voice: (214) 612-2600
From: tstoll@nwsca.att.com (Timothy E Stoll)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Skeet/Trap Guns...Help!
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:12:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <53244@mimsy.umd.edu> M20069@MBVM.mitre.org (Joseph H. Downing) writes:
#Are there any Skeet/Trap shooters out there?  If so, could you please explain
#the difference between the weapons used for each?
# 
#Thanks in Advance,
#Joe Downing

Joe,
A trap gun is usually improved modified or full choke, and for single trap,
which is more popular, only needs one shot. A skeet gun will have a skeet
choke, (I think this is between improved cylinder and modified) a skeet gun
also needs two shots. We have a trap range at my club and I shoot trap, we are
building a skeet range this year so I guess I will be getting a skeet gun.

Standard Disclaimers Applied
Tim
From: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 145 gr. Sivertip
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:46:30 GMT


|> So, can you import 125 gr JHP/XTP projectiles?  If the import
|> restrictions are on live ammuniton only, I can get boxes of 100
|> Hornady 125 grain JHP/XTP for $7.95 (US) plus shipping - but I'd
|> have to check on export laws, I don't think there's a problem there.

I'll check the situation here. Maybe, if importation of bullets is
easier, I'll be able to find them in local stores.

-- 
Emmanuel Baechler.
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne
MA-Ecublens
CH-1015 Lausanne	Switzerland
Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
e-mail: baechler@liasun6.epfl.ch
Standard Disclaimer

Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
From: sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Terminator)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Clip prices?
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:43:43 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <53007@mimsy.umd.edu> wolfgang@wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht) writes:
#In bourman@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Bob Bourman) writes:
#}What's up ? Are these non-brand clips as good? Has anyone had
#}experience with off the wall clips?
#
#The U.S.A. brand 30 rnd mag for a Glock is pure junk.  It won't even
#load *load* more than 24 rounds of FMJ.  Rounds 24-30 bind from front
#to back jamming the mag.  Trying to pull the stuck (live) rounds out
#of the bottom of the mag is certainly exciting.
#
#U.S.A. will gladly send replacement mags - but the replacements I got
#are all just as defective as the first.  I'm surprised that U.S.A.
#can't hire some QA person that is capable of sucessfully using a pair
#of calipers.

So, the general consensus is that the only good 1911 mags are Colt
factory issue with the base plate sporting a horse, or the Wilson Mags?

What's strange is that my SA1911 came with a 7-round magazine, although
I've always though they came with 8-rounders.  (Yes, I checked. Seven rounds.)
From: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: First Pistol
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:55:32 GMT


# Well from the mail I have gotten so far the Rugar, the Taurus and
# the Browning have been eliminated.  Well I never really liked any
# of them anyway. The only gun left on my original list is the High
# Standard Citation.  Anyone out there in net land who has any experiences
# or opinions about this gun if possible could you email me some info
# about what you know?

As you discarded the Ruger the Taurus and the Browning, I recommend
you two other guns: the Beretta 89 and the S&W 41. I own both since
several years and both are very good target guns. Contrary to the ones
you eliminated, they are serious, match grade target pistols, although
they are not as sophisticated as the pure UIT competition models. The
S&W 41 is very well known in the US, so I won't elaborate more. It
appears however that the Beretta is much less known in the US, I don't 
really know why. It has a very good balance, an excellent trigger, and 
excellent grips (with a thumbrest but without palmrest). Of course,
it is very accurate. With Eley Tenex, you can expect groups of less
than 1 centimeter at 25 meters. Its external hammer is very convenient
for dry shooting and it has a really useful safety (it locks both the
trigger and the hammer and can be set/reset easily). It's trigger
however cannot be adjusted in weight, position, course and location
(as on the UIT comeptition models) but it has a "triggerstop".

If you are willing to consider a UIT competition model, you'll be able
to find your gun among the Hammerli 208s, the Hammerli 280, the Unique
DES 69U, The FAS SP 602, The benelli P90, The Sako Triace and the 
Pardini/Fiochhi.

Emmanuel Baechler.                        | Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle   | e-mail: baechler@liasun6.epfl.ch
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne  | Standard Disclaimer
MA-Ecublens
CH-1015 Lausanne	Switzerland

Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
From: kdlin@laplace.ee.ucla.edu (K. David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: When You Need to go BANG BANG
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:30:49 GMT
Organization: UCLA School of Engineering and Applied Science


This is a request for advices regarding additional training on handgun
for personal defense. Let me state the story first.

Last night, about 10 minutes after I went to bed, I heard some noises
at my front door as if someone was forcing into my apartment. I jumped
out of bed, opened my Canon gun safe, pulled out my Beretta and waited
in my bedroom. The noise stopped and no one came in. That was the end
of the story.

However, when I pulled out my Beretta, I was *NOT* thinking "OK, this moment
is what I have been waiting for after all these training and practice. 
I am going to practice 16-taps in real life! Hee-How!" Instead, I was scared 
to death and lost my fine body movement, just like in the articles I have
read. 

I bought my first gun started shooting earlier this year. At the range I go,
I can put a 50 ft slow fire pistol target at the very end of the range 
( about 50 feet ) and squeeze all my shots at the black on a good day.
( At this moment, I need to thank all you good guys' help and advices again.)
However, I don't think I could do that last night even at 15 feet. If 
someone was shooting back, I wouldn't know what to do.

So where should I go next? Joining the Army or law enforcement agency
is *NOT* an option for me, although they are good places to gain real
life experiences. I am aware of some personal defense training classes.
But how far do I have to go? Note that one can go crazy and spends lots
of time/money on this thing. Another point is how useful these classes
are? Are they equivalent to read a book on this subject? How can they
create a life threatening situation for training?

When I started shooting, my trigger finger flinched. After 3 months
of practices and thousands of rounds, it went away. But how can I gain
experiences on this life threatening situation? Is there anything I can
do to make me more calm in a situation like this? Thanks.

David
--
Defend your life with style -- shoot a Beretta!!        K. David Lin
							UCLA EE Dept.
							kdlin@ee.ucla.edu
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Bullet (in)stability
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:30:23 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Shooting for the first time at a 300 yard 10-shot BR match for
group and score, I and others noticed that the 68gr Bruno BT
bullets were tipped as they went through the target.  I had
seven shots in 0.75 or so, and the other three opened the group
up to 1.6 inches.  The flyers were tipped more than the shots
that went into the group.  An experienced shooter told me that
he uses flatbase bullets in his rifle to prevent this.  Question
1: Why would a BT be less stable than a FB of equal proportions?

I'm shooting a 6PPC Masker cruiser, 25gr H322 in Sako USA cases,
instrumental velocity 2920fps.  This is below what most shooters
use for the 6PPC, where velocity is in the 3100-3200 range.  My
"light" load is stable at 100 yards; will boosting the muzzle
velocity a couple hundred fps keep it stabilized at 300?  I'm
guessing (hoping) that the answer is yes, based on retained
velocity figures from  ballistics tables.  Question 2: Has
anybody out there had similar experiences?

The barrel is a 1-14 twist, standard for 6PPC.  Another shooter
says he uses a 1-13 when the weather is cold/wet (common here
in Seattle), and a 1-14 in hot weather.  Question 3: Any idea
why this might work?

Note to Mike Lijewski, whose address I have lost and from whom
I bought this rifle:  I finished in the money even with bullets
wobbling downrange; if I can get this straightened out I should
be in the sevens at 300.  The gun aggs in the 1s at 100 yards,
even with me driving.  Thanks.

Toby Bradshaw
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm vs 40S&W - which to choose?
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:30:57 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <53133@mimsy.umd.edu> rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com (System Administrator) writes:
#Isn't a .40S&W round closer to the specs of a 10mm?

It depends!  Full-power .40S&W and downloaded 10mm tend to have nearly
the same ballistics.  Full-power 10mm is quite different.  But from
another point of view, namely packaging, .40S&W is more a "fat 9mm"
cartridge than a "short 10mm" cartridge.  .40S&W guns tend to be the
same size as 9mm models, while 10mm guns tend to be a step larger.
From: mlh2416@zeus.tamu.edu (HERRING, MICHAEL LEWIS)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE:US NAVY GETS RID OF M9'S
Date: 13 Apr 92 02:22:27 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services


#From: tporczyk@novell.com (Tony Porczyk)
#Message-ID: <52281@mimsy.umd.edu>

#I just read in the latest Guns&Ammo Assault Rifles issue that
#apparantly due the flurry of problems with M9 during the Desert Storm
#operation the U.S. Navy and Marines have formally requested that the
<Secretary of the Navy allow them to completely drop the use of M9
#Beretta.  Anyone has any information on the results of this request? 

#Tony


does this mean that we as civilians would be abl to buy these, like we could 
buy m1's?  (btw, does anyone know if the gov't still sells those?) or would
they be destroyed?

clueless
mlh2416@zeus.tamu.edu

        "Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book." 
			-the Armor God
                         (Patton, for those of you even more clueless than i)
From: bjt20@ccc.amdahl.com (Bob J Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:12:57 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


In article <52676@mimsy.umd.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del Vecchio) writes:
#rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
#If he wanted an autoloader, he could look at a glock 20, which holds
#15+1 rds of 10mm.    This is a far cry from .44 mag, and may be useless
#against polar bear, but it is the next best thing.   The glock ought to
#work at any tempeture, and the greater controlablity and # of rounds 
#might make up for the weaker caliber in his mind.   He ought to get
#the hottest heavy hollowpoints for this purpose.   I think some companies
#load the 10mm to 170 grains at 1340 fps, but I may be wrong.
#Jim Del Vecchio

Don't use hollow points for a pistol round against bear.  For Grizzlie's
a round often may have to penetrate 18" of fat.  I don't see many HPs
doing this especially after going through the hide.  One doesn't always
get a head on mouth or neck shot.  Otherwise I think the Model 20 would
be a pretty good choice using FMJ or TMJ.  45 WMAG is real expensive to
shoot.  The Wildey is decently reliable but is as heavy as an anvil.  The
LAR would be better in that caliber weight wise.



BJET
bjet@ccc.amdahl.com

Mike:  He is BOB!  Eager for fun!  He wears a smile.  EVERYBODY RUN.

"I felt comfortable at 80mph even if there were cops because I was
behind Ben."  "But even if cops pull out quickly it's usually after the
next guy."  "Like I said, I was BEHIND Ben."  Chuck
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 Home Protection Gun Recommendations Sought
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:06:05 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

bp816@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stuart Krivis) writes:

#One thing no one has mentioned...  Don't use handloads for self-
#defense. They will make you out to be a monster in court if you
#ever actually have to shoot someone.

So they say.   Does anyone have any FOAF or personal accounts 
where the use of handloads was brought up in court?   Has anyone
documented any cases where it was brought up?

#Point 2: Why use a handgun for home protection? Shotguns are more
#effective and safer. Shotguns scare the hell out of burglars!
#You are much less likely to shoot thru 3 houses and kill Uncle
#Fred's goldfish. Kids are less likely to get in trouble with a
#shotgun in the house. AND it takes less skill to use a scatter-
#gun. Get a 410ga or go whole hog and get a 20. Remember, all
#those farmers can't be wrong! 

Handguns are more user friendly, imo.   I wouldn't have a clue
if a shotgun was loaded even if I was holding it.   I suspect
that  many other shotgun novices are in the same boat, especialy
children.   

shotguns can also be taken from you much more easily.   There
is nothing easier to hold on to than a snub revolver.

If I were to get a shotgun for home defense, I think I wouldn't
consider anything but a 12 gauge, most likely a smaller 18-20 
inch mossberg pump.   If recoil were a problem with the lady of
the house, I would just use lighter loads, but still a 12 gauge.

I used to favor large buck, but after reading a few posts about
how far 00 buck goes, I might be swayed to use small buck, most
likely #4.    Hopefuly that would be less of an overpenetration
hazzard.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Blessed Sig 210???????
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:50:52 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

C.T.Teo@massey.ac.nz (C.T. Teo) writes:

#Re: Blessed Sig 210?????

#new to rec.guns and whatever relevant information I could get on Sig seems
#to suggest that it is a precision piece of hardware. Of interest to me is the
#9mm para model. Why is ONE Sig 210 equivalent to THREE P226 in terms of price?
#Aren't the basic internal mechanism the same? Is comparing a similar capacity
#Honda / BMW a good analogy? Or same model BMW except one with more "extras"
#and "turbocharged"?

I thought the 226 was sig saur and the 210 was sig neuhausen.
From: bellahs!mmeyer@uunet.UU.NET (Michael Meyer PSE)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:29:35 GMT
Organization: Bell Atlantic Healthcare Systems

In article <52706@mimsy.umd.edu> bjt20@ccc.amdahl.com (Bob J Taylor) writes:
#
#In article <52676@mimsy.umd.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del Vecchio) writes:
##rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
##If he wanted an autoloader, he could look at a glock 20, which holds
##15+1 rds of 10mm.    This is a far cry from .44 mag, and may be useless
##against polar bear, but it is the next best thing.   The glock ought to
##work at any tempeture, and the greater controlablity and # of rounds 
##might make up for the weaker caliber in his mind.   He ought to get
##the hottest heavy hollowpoints for this purpose.   I think some companies
##load the 10mm to 170 grains at 1340 fps, but I may be wrong.
##Jim Del Vecchio
#
#Don't use hollow points for a pistol round against bear.  For Grizzlie's
#a round often may have to penetrate 18" of fat.  I don't see many HPs
#doing this especially after going through the hide.  One doesn't always
#get a head on mouth or neck shot.  Otherwise I think the Model 20 would
#be a pretty good choice using FMJ or TMJ.  45 WMAG is real expensive to
#shoot.  The Wildey is decently reliable but is as heavy as an anvil.  The
#LAR would be better in that caliber weight wise.

What about jacketed soft points.

Michael Meyer
From: gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: removing primer
Date: 10 Apr 92 23:20:47 GMT
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology


In article <52933@mimsy.umd.edu> edsr!kjs@uunet.UU.NET (Kevin Sedota) writes:
 >what is the safest way to remove a live primer from a case. I was using a Lee
 >auto primer and one of the primers go side ways and was pressed against the 
 >next primer in the tool. I didn't notice it until I had seated the primer.
 >
 >A friend suggested I put it in the gun and fire it. (no bullet) But I never
 >remember to take them to the range. would it be safe to use the decaping/sizing
 >die on it or would that set the thing off.

there's no safe way save shooting. the least dangerous way i know, and the one
i use, is to half-fill the case with light oil, maybe even diluted with
kerosene (paraffin), let it set for at least a day, then drain and decap
like a fired case (fearfully and minimizing my exposure).  decapping in an
open tool or with a punch, or otherwise not providing a place for pressure
to build if the sucker were to go off would likely be wiser.

-- 
gus Baird, College of Computing
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gus
ARPA: gus@cc.gatech.edu
From: douglas@netcom.com (Doug - MIS x7889)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Clip prices?
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:27:29 GMT
Organization: Approach Software Corp.  Redwood City, CA  94063

In article <52608@mimsy.umd.edu> bourman@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Bob Bourman) writes:
#
#	What's up ? Are these non-brand clips as good? Has anyone had
#	experience with off the wall clips?

The only experience that I have has wouldn't be considered positive.

Twice I have ordered mail order through one of the Shotgun News ads from
a "Clips R Us" type places and have been more than satisfied with the
product they sent me to use in a Baretta Italian 92F.

QA is horrible, if anything.  All magazine fit completely different, there
seemed to be no difference.  Feed was marginal at best.  The way a couple
of them fit made sounds that would make you grit your teeth as it bit
into the inside well of the Baretta.  Few, if any of them, could hold the
full capacity of ammo, as the springs seemed to bend and squirm and
otherwise not fit right, cutting capicity.

One of the makers was USA Magazines, or something like that.

Moral of the story: the magazines are only good for carrying around and
shooting up the backyard when a jam or two doesn't bother you.  In the
future, for any gun I own, I'll only buy the factory original models.

-DM


-- 
Douglas Mason                                    douglas@netcom.COM
Network administration / software development    douglas@netcom.UUCP
Approach Software Corporation                    +1 415.306.7889
From: alanko@ruuvi.me.tut.fi (Risto Alanko)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re:Finnish rifle rewiew
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:04:52 GMT

#grout!scott@uunet.UU.NET (Scott Caldwell)writes:
  
# It is a model 91(without upper handguard but with the
# stock cut for the sling  ? confusion ?)
# It is marked on the reciever Remington Armory 1916
# and is stamped with the imperial russian crest


#  (This leads me to believe the rifle never made it to russia)
#  It has 95% blue, Clear crisp lands, and all matching #'s

#  The front barrel band and cleaning rod were missingng..

All m/91 Mosin-Nagants made in USA were of "revised model 91".
It should have a handguard and a cleaning rod. If the upper band is 
missing, so is the handguard.

The original model m/91 stock had no slots for sling and no cleaning rod 
channel. The sling swiwels were at upper band and at magazine follower 
pivot bolt. Behind the trigger guard was an extension piece as "pistol 
grip" 

If you intend test your gun's accurracy, you should check that the barrel 
doesn't touch the stock at the metal nose fitting.

It is possible that the gun was never in Russia; part if the original lot 
remained in USA. During the revolution, the Russians never paid for all the 
rifles made by Westinghouse and Remington.   



#BTW I paid $60 for the thing and thought I did pretty good.


For a matching M-N with good metal parts, dirt cheap, if the stock is 
otherwise complete. Most M-N:s ex-Finnish Army are rebuilt-repaired-mixed-
rebuilds.
*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*
    Risto Alanko                          alanko@ruuvi.me.tut.fi   
    Machine Design                        P.O.Box 589
    Tampere University of Technology      33101 Tampere, FINLAND
    FINLAND                               telefax INT+358 31 162307 
*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*
From: dbruce@athena.mit.edu (David M Bruce)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: PEN GUN
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:43:52 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <53004@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-1.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
#Where could I get a pen gun?

Nowhere, they're illegal (at least in MA).