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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 01:20:00 EST
From:         Robert Weiss <PSYROBTW@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Amen, amen

Dan Graham writes to me that...

> No, Bob.  John 3's use of amen does not at all imply that Jesus is agreeing
>with part or all of what Nicodemas just said.  Remember that this is a
>Greek idiomatic expression and that Jesus wasn't speaking Greek but
>Aramaic.

[...]

and Jesse Carnes writes in some personal mail that was sent to the
list that....

>Dear Dan ;
>
>By crackie, you stole my thunder ... I said the very same thing to the bloke.
>The exception is that I forgot that Jesus was in the Aramaic mode ... the
>idiomatic expression ... et cetera, et cetera.


        Let's examine "amen" first. Our English "amen" sounds the same
as the Greek and the Hebrew "amen." The Greek alpha-mu-eta-nu (amen) is
actually the transliteration of the Hebrew aleph-mem-nun (amen). In
the Septuagint, the pre-Christian Greek translation of the Tanakh,
aleph-mem-nun is occasionally rendered alpha-mu-eta-nu. "Amen" is not
a Greek idiomatic expression, but it is taken directly from the
Hebrew (cf. BAGD, p.49). In fact, the people saying "amen, amen" in
Nehemiah 8:6 (for example) would sound quite like Jesus saying "amen,
amen" in John 3:3, which would sound quite like any one of us saying
"amen, amen" today.

        In the OT we find evidence that amen was used in a liturgical
formula, were it was spoken by congregation at the end of a liturgy.
In both the NT and OT we find it given at the end of doxologies.
It is also evident from 1 Corinthians 14:16 that "amen" was the expected
response of the congregation.

        The formulation that is found only in the NT in John, that of
"amen, amen" is found in quite a few places in the OT. But in all
those circumstances it was in reply to something that was previously
stated. As to extra-Biblical literature, Dr. David Stern writes: "Most
translators take Yeshua's `amen' as referring forward to what He was
about to say: `Truly, I say to you,...' But there is no other instance
of `amen' pointing forward in early Jewish literature, and the context
does not require it. Yeshua uses `amen' to refer back, either
seriously or ironically, to what He or someone has said, or to what
has just happened" (_Jewish New Testament_, p.359).


>The context would indicate that the contrary of what you said is
>true ... Jesus is saying amen to His own statements.  Just look at what is
>being said.  Nicodemas comes up and says to Jesus, "We know you are a
>teacher sent from God."  Jesus replies, "Yes, and if you aren't born again,
>you cannot even percieve the Kingdom of Heaven."  Jesus is saying that
>Nicodemas does not know anything, that he does not know who Jesus is, that
>he can't know such a thing for he is not born again.  The 'amen' is in no
>way agreement with Nicodemas, but an affirmation of what Jesus is about to
>say.

        The context does not require that the "amen, amen" has to look
forward to the coming statement of Jesus. In your paraphrase above,
you say, "Jesus replies, `Yes, and if..." The "yes" here is the "amen,
amen." The "yes" of Jesus is in response to what Nicodemus has just
said. We both see that Jesus' statement is a reply to Nicodemus. Which
is what I have been saying.

        Here, I'll use "yes, indeed" as a type of responsive reply
from Jesus to Nicodemus, whenever the Greek has "amen, amen."

        Nicodemus came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we
        know it is from God that you have come as a teacher; for no
        one can do these miracles you perform unless God is with him."
        "Yes, indeed," Jesus answered him, "I tell you that unless
        a person is born again from above, he cannot see the Kingdom
        of God."

        Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a grown man be `born'? Can he
        go back into his mother's womb and be born a second time?"
        Jesus answered, "Yes, indeed, I tell you that unless a person
        is born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom
        of God."


        Now the context in both of these places does not indicate that
Jesus was `amening' His own soon-to-be-forthcoming statements. It is
not required by the context. In fact it seems to work better as a
response to Nicodemus, for then it provides the linkage in the
conversation. And it also ties in with why each of Jesus' statements is
introduced by John as "apekrithe," that is, "to respond."


 en agape,
 Bob
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