HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re: Pastoral letter
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:54:22 GMT

In article <9211192011.AA04973@pegasus.com> Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:
>Steve, you illustrate very well one of the main differences between
>the Church of Rome, and the Anglican church.  The COR is a 'top down'
>authority, while the Anglican church is a 'bottom up' authority, with
>the Episcopos deriving their authority from the people.

   If you mean the Catholic Church, yes, it is a top-down Church.  The
authority comes down from God to the bishops, then down to the priests
and the people (God->bishops->priests->people).  The problem I have
with a church in which the authority comes from the people is that it
seems to imply that _God's_ authority comes from the people
(people->priests->bishops->God).

   This becomes even more evident when the people are able to change
the church's doctrines.

>Is it really your contention that the laity of the Roman Church does
>not receive the action of the Holy Spirit?  Is communion with God
>relegated only to the Bishops and above?  Obviously these are

   Those are straw men.  I'm not saying any such thing.  The Holy
Spirit does, however, act in a different way on those entrusted with
the care of His Church.

>rhetorical questions, but to blithely disregard the expressed opinions
>of the laity and many priests as unworthy of notice is, IMO, not in
>keeping with Paul's teachins about the various parts of the Body of
>Christ.   Without the people there is no Church.

   Wrong.  Without Christ there is no Church, but your point is moot
anyway, because there are and will always be (don't forget the Church
Triumphant) people in the Church.  Yes, there are various parts of the
Body of Christ.  But as I recall, Paul says this: "Are all apostles?
are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?"  The
answer to these rhetorical questions is the same: no.  The bishops are
those who are called to be teachers, not the laity (don't say "what
about catechists, etc.?"; they have no authority except from their
bishops).

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:54:30 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: Ordination of women yet again *sigh*

Gordon Zaft (zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org) writes:

>Women wishing to be priests does not equate to women being called by God to be
>priests.

Men wishing to be priest does not equate to men being called by God to be
priests, yet the church treats it as such.

Gordon, your "argument" is a red herring.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 10:01:49 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: AIDS

On Nov 16, 12:15pm, "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,    wrote:
} Subject: Re: AIDS (was Re: ACT-UP)
} Karl Schudt writes:
}
} >Perhaps, but lets look at the facts. We have NEVER EVER EVER cured a virus.
} >Never. Not in all of history. Not a one.
}
} I would contend that we have cured both the polio virus and the smallpox
 virus.
} Both diseases *are* viral in nature.
}
} If one wants to be exact, one could claim we can't cure it in someone who
 *has*
} the disease, only prevent people from getting the disease because the vaccine
} endows immunity, but by having vaccines for these diseases, we can prevent
} others from catching them from carriers *even if they are exposed*.  I would
} classify this as a cure, since the diseases can no longer propagate and will
 end
} when the carrier ends.
}
}-- End of excerpt from "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,

Brian,
        As someone pointed out to me before, this doesn't help the millions
already infected (and, indeed, it doesn't).

        As for preventing it -- we already know how to prevent it!  Yet
we see headlines in our papers that the heterosexual population doesn't
seem to have caught on.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Stop searching forever.  Happiness is just next to you.
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Priority:     normal
X-mailer:     Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4).
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:59:04 PDT
From:         frank lopez <FRANK@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: selection of popes (was Re: Church of England & women p

> In article <1992Nov19.122842.15555@news.nd.edu> scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu
> (scharle) writes:
> >    I also wonder whether at times the Pope was chosen by some
> >secular authority, for example, has the Roman Emperor ever done
> >that?  (Let me make this clear -- this is a real question, not a
> >rhetorical question.)
>


   While an emperor may have twisted a few arms here and there I'm am
pretty sure that there has been little secular control over the
choosing of a Pope.  I do remember reading about two cases were the
citizens of Italy had on two occasions forced the cardinals to select
a Pope by 1: locking them in the chambers, placing armed guards at the
doors, and keeping all food and water(?) from entering the chamber
until a Pope was chosen, and (2):  forcing the cardinals to select an
Italian rather than a frenchman.  I believe this happened during the
life of Catherine of Siena.

   Frank
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Organization: The American University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:52:55 EST
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Priest shortage

On Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:52:51 EST Evelyn Haller said:
>By the way, I saw on the news last night that the pastoral letter was not
>approved by the U.S. churches. Has anyone actually seen this letter?? Do we
>get to see it at all??

I'm sure it was, or soon will be published in Origins. Contact the USCC
about ordering a copy, or getting a subscription. The sales phone number
is (800) 235-8722; the general number for the USCC is (202) 541-3000.

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
From: mjkugel@IASTATE.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:12:45 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Please unsubscribe me from the Free Catholic Mailing List.
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Pastoral letter
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 09:26:30 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:

> In article <9211180833.AA12991@pegasus.com> Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writ
> >Ted, How long do you think it will be before the American Catholic
> >Church splits off from Rome?......
>
> In some major respects, it already has, IMHO.
>

Maybe so, but the Pope continues to appoint and consecrate bishops for this
country, and those bishops owe their obedience to the Pope.  That's not going
to change for a long time, since the Holy Father is appointing bishops who are
essentially conservatives.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: homosexuality in animals
Date: 19 Nov 92 22:44:15 GMT
Organization: Rice University

>Tim Rolfe writes:
>>Karl C Schudt writes:

>>     Humans are *not* animals, and therefore you can't justify human behavior
>>by parallels with animal behavior. (IMHO of course ;)    )

>That depends on what portion of human behavior and ethics you are
>discussing.  The point at issue is same-sex genital behavior. 

I thought I would interject an important point everyone seems to be missing 
here.  I was under the impression that orthodox Catholic teaching said
that in the Fall, not only man (and woman) became fallen, but all of nature
as well.  When God passes sentence on Adam and Eve, he tells the serpent
that he is "cursed above all cattle, and above all wild animals."  He also
says "Cursed is the earth because of you; in toil you shall eat of it" etc.

It seems readily apparent from this (Genesis 3) that all of creation became
fallen along with Man, and all the animals with which he peacefully 
coexisted are more than willing to gnaw his face off if they get the chance.

I am sure Aquinas speaks on the subject (I'm a Lutheran, so I don't have
any copies around).

-- 
--------------\  /^--^\  /--------------  *    Ernest Conrad Mueller IV
   ------------\| 0  0 |/------------     *    mueller@owlnet.rice.edu
      ----------\_ <> _/----------        *    Rice U., Home of Owlnet
                /V\--/V\                  *    "Give a hoot - Don't compute!"
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Apparently-To: anglican@american.edu, catholic@american.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 05:53:03 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 20-Nov-1992 0854" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Anglican Uniate Church proposed

The Rt. Rev. and Rt. Hon. Graham Leonard, recently retired Bishop of London,
is calling on traditionalist Anglicans to form a semi-autonomous Anglican
Uniate Church under the authority of the Pope.  [Bishop Leonard was one of
the speakers "for the wider Anglican Communion" at the founding meeting of
the Episcopal Synod of America, a group within the Episcopal Church calling
the church back to traditional values on a number of fronts.]

The Uniate Church would preserve some of its Anglican identity, such as its
own bishops, liturgy, and married clergy, but would be a full member of the
Roman Catholic Church.  [There are other Uniate Churches from the Eastern
Tradition united with Rome, also maintaining their own liturgical traditions
and canon law.]

While ultimate approval would have to come from the Vatican, Cardinal Basil
Hume, the archbishop of Westminster and leader of the Roman Catholic Church
in Britain, said that he was taking the suggestion seriously.

Most Rev. George Carey, the archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Anglican
Church said yesterday that he understood the anguish of traditionalists but
urged them not to make hasty or ill-considered judgments.

Anglicans wishing to establish a Uniate Church would have to approach Rome
as "supplicants without presumption, asking if a way could be found for us
to somehow preserve our Anglican identity while being in communion with the
See of Peter."

Cardinal Hume, in a BBC radio interview, said that a person cannot become a
Roman Catholic just because they cannot accept the ordination of women.  To
become a Roman Catholic means that you have to embrace all that the Catholic
Church stands for.  Nevertheless, if there are those who feel committed to
what the Roman Catholic Church is and stands for, then it is our responsibility
to help them to realize that particular vocation.
From: LIBEM048@SIVM.BITNET (Evelyn Haller)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Separating our kids from public schools
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:51:21 GMT
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From:  Evelyn Haller
       Smithsonian Institution Libraries
I also am a product of a Catholic Education. I find that there are pros and
cons on the subject. The Catholic school in my neighborhood is overcrowded and
althoug at first I was upset that my child could not get in, I now find that
it was a blessing in disguise. Yes I may have to travel 20 minutes by car to
take my son to school but he is getting a catholic education.
is wo

                **** TTFN: Ta Ta for Now ****
Evelyn Haller                                      SI Libraries
LIBEM048@SIVM                                 NHB 24mz, MRC 154
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:41:29 MST
From:         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject:      Separating our kids from public schools

Did anyone see the latest column by Cal Thomas?  I'm curious what all of you
think of it. Some excerpts:
     ..we now live in what some theologians call a "post-Christian culture".
The majority no longer accepts the principles from the Old and New Testaments
that once undergirded law, government, human relationships and social policy.
To appeal to this majority with the language and values of the past is to
invite ridicule.

He then goes on to explain that traditional Christians have been unsuccessful
in the political are in trying to achieve positive change.  One of his
recommendations was as follows:
   ..religious conservatives must separate their children from the failed
public school system.  Public schools have been invaded and captured by an
alien philosophy.  With their emphasis on "multiculturalism", rewriting
history, and alternative lifestyles, they are hothouses in which young
seedlings are turned into liberal oaks.  These schools cannot be revived.
They must be shunned by those with traditional values if those values and
ideas are to be preserved.
   ..the focus in their primary education has been the propoganda from a
leftist world view and not the acquisition of genuine knowledge and widsom.


The column was timely here in Boise, because three teachers were suspended
last week for bringing in lesbians to speak to a parenting class at one of the
local high schools.  The situation caused quite an uproar.
     Although Mr. Thomas has some valid points, there are not nearly enough
Catholic and other Christian schools to meet the demand.  We have a multi-year
waiting list at the Catholic school my children attend.  Although many people
around here home-school their kids, I don't think its a practical idea for
everyone.
     I'm curious how the rest of you view the public school situation, and if
the demand for private schools in the rest of the country or world is
increasing as it is around here.

Brent
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      RE: Ordination of women yet again *sigh*
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 05:18:01 GMT

In article <00963CAF.E7638200.20752@swdev.si.com> "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> writes:
>Gordon Zaft (zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org) writes:
>
>>Women wishing to be priests does not equate to women being called by God to be
>>priests.
>
>Men wishing to be priest does not equate to men being called by God to be
>priests, yet the church treats it as such.

This is false.  The Church does not accept that a man has a call or vocation
to the priesthood simply because the man feels that he has a call or vocation
to the priesthood.  The Church claims to recognize who is called and who
is not, despite that fact there are men who feel called.  This may come as
a surprise to some out there, but there are men who are turned away because
of a lack of an authentica vocation.

>Gordon, your "argument" is a red herring.

Brian, your "statement" is false.

Peace,
John
From: covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM (John R. Covert 15-Nov-1992 1652)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: The vote in England and Boston's premier Anglo-Catholic parish
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:54:17 GMT
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Apparently-To: catholic@american.edu

At Mass today at The Church of the Advent, Father Mead began the
intercessions by noting that the vote in England had certainly
brought great joy to some of the members of the congregation but
that many were deeply grieving over the outcome.  He asked that
the members of the parish continue as a community bound by Christian
love.  He then asked that every one spend a short period in silent
prayer, after which he would read a collect by Archbishop Laud.

        Gracious Father, we pray for thy holy Catholic Church.
        Fill it with all truth, in all truth with all peace.
        Where it is corrupt, purify it; where it is in error,
        direct it; where in any thing it is amiss, reform it.
        Where it is right, strengthen it; where it is in want,
        provide for it; where it is divided, reunite it; for
        the sake of Jesus Christ thy Son our Saviour.  Amen.

[Archbishop William Laud was the 76th Archbishop of Canterbury.  The
Collect above appears on page 816 of the 1979 Book of Common Prayer.]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      RE: Jesus and opinion polls
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:41:28 GMT

In article <921119083148.3f20d47b@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>Steve B.
>I agree that in the passage you quoted, Jesus is saying that unless you
>eatHis flesh and drink His blood, you will not be saved, now where does
>it say this only applies to men? Once again, you are trying to tie all
>the "sins" of the world in with the ordination of women. I have already
>conceded that the first twelve called by the incarnate Christ were male,
>why must we conclude from that, that He will never call a female?
>You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were actually trying to
>compare me to Judas:-) ..and speaking of that, the passage indicates that
>Jesus called Judas a "devil", was Judas the incarnate Satan? Butthen again,
>why don't we try to stick to one topic:-) -J.J.

J.J.,
It seemed pretty clear to me anyway Steve was making what in ordinary English
we usually call an "analogy" trying to display the various different attitudes
that people have always, including in Scripture, taken to "hard teachings"
of the faith.
Peace,
John
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Sunday, 22 Nov 1992 23:46:44 EST
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Latin Liturgy Locator

The New York Latin Liturgy Association (P.O. Box 061360, Staten
Island, NY 10306-0013) has set up a 24 hour a day, voice mail Latin
Mass Locator service.  Call 718 979-7325.  Because it is voice mail
you need a telephone that can send tones.  The instructions will tell
you to enter the first four letters of the state's name.  This does
not provide for distinguishing North Dakota from North Carolina or
South Dakota from South Carolina, but it should work for all other
states.  When you get a state the system will tell you to press a
specified number for each diocese or archdiocese in the state that
has a regularly scheduled, authorized Latin Mass, either Tridentine
Rite or Novus Ordo.
-------
Marty Helgesen
Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu

"Just say know to Gnosticism"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Re: Cd. Mahony on the new Missal 
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:50:16 GMT

Gordon C. Zaft writes:
>The following is the text of an interview with Roger Cardinal Mahony
>that was printed in the November 13, 1992 "Tidings" (the newspaper of
>the Archdiocese of Los Angeles).  
>  ... article deleted
>                        The Lord's Prayer
>
>Proposed new translation:               Current version:
>
>Our Father in heaven,                   Our Father, who art in heaven,
>hallowed be your name,                  hallowed by thy name,
>your kingdom come,                      thy kingdom come,
>your will be done,                      thy will be done,
>on earth as in heaven.                  on earth as it is in heaven.
>Give today our daily bread.             Give us this day our daily bread.
>Forgive us our sins                     And forgive us our trespasses
>as we forgive those who sin against us. as we forgive those who trespass
>Save us from the time of trial          against us.
>and deliver us from evil.               And lead us not into temptation,
>For the kingdom, the power, and the     but deliver us from evil.
>glory are yours
>now and forever.
>

Gordon, thanks for posting this.  I was surprised to find so few changes
in the Our Father based on the reaction.  Looks like the same prayer
to me, and I don't think the changes are sufficient to cause a 
generation gap.  With all the hoopla I thought maybe it had changed from
Our Father to Our Creator or something. 

Bob
--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
From: mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
Date: 13 Nov 92 17:20:01 GMT
Organization: Manchester University, UK.

In article <geyc6pe_NU004HJ65j@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com> ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM (Eric James Ewanco) writes:
>If
>you think my comparison with Jeffrey Dahmer is ridiculous, believe me,
>there are homosexuals which are frightened by Jeffrey Dahmer's case
>because it mirrors exactly what seems to be going on in their own soul.

I find the comparison objectionable, and also a rather weak argument: what
you seem to imply is that homosexual acts are only wrong to the extent that
they impel their participants towards acts of cannibalism; i.e. in the
overwhelming majority of cases, not at all.

>
> [... description of psychiatric problems experienced by homosexuals]
>

In moral theology a distinction is usually drawn between homosexual acts and
homosexual disposition, with unequivocal moral condemnation reserved for the
former. Your comments appear at least partially to address the latter,
but it is not clear to me whether it is intellectually coherent to make a
case for the immorality of a *disposition* as such. Being homosexual in
inclination can, arguably, be no more immoral than being five feet 
nine inches tall. 

Moreover, if we take seriously the suggestion (and I am inclined to accept
it) that homosexual disposition is a sign of a vocation to celibacy, then it
is difficult to sustain the idea that homosexual inclination is
intrinsically immoral (what's the phrase, 'objectively disordered'): the
person affected by it prefigures, in a roundabout way, the kingdom of heaven
better than I, a heterosexual, do.

Martin Barry.
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