From: norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: re: Papacy
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:47:40 GMT
Organization: diminishing

In a previous post, I summarized an article by Fr. Roch Kereszty on the 
distinction of the Church of Rome as the place where the two great
martyr-apostles witnessed to Christ with their deaths:

RC> (quote) According to the earliest available evidence of the
RC> late first and second century, the Church of Rome was founded
RC> by both Peter and Paul.  

And David Wagner replied:
 
DW> Paul's letter to the Romans to indicates clearly that there was a church
DW> there before he ever arrived.  His letter was a means by which
DW> he introduced himself to an existing body of believers.  

Of course.  The early Christians knew this too, but they thought of Peter
and Paul as founders inasmuch as the two confirmed the community by their
apostolic teaching, "and confirmed their teaching with their martyrdom."
Tertullian said the apostles "poured their whole teaching along with their
blood" into the Church of Rome.

But, pshaw -- I hate having to respond to quibbles about *words*.

RC> According to the same evidence, her
RC> prominence and leadership role in the universal Church
RC> derives from the fact of having been jointly founded by these
RC> two martyr apostles. ... The Synod of Arles (314) attributes
RC> the prominence of Rome to the fact that there "the apostles
RC> sit in judgment every day and their blood bears witness
RC> unceasingly to the glory of God."

DW> The notion that "the apostles sit in judgment every day" in Rome
DW> gives me the creeps.  

Good!  It ought to: a little supernatural presence in the world is
awesome and, frankly, a little unsettling.  

DW> If a Catholic wanted to say that the memory
DW> of Peter and Paul was particularly preserved in Rome, fine.  

Ugh: that's watering the facts down: in stead of the apostles' real pastoral 
care in the world (exercised through their intercession), you're reducing
a divine phenomenon (an act of the Holy Spirit), to the human level:
a mere commemoration.  

(You don't *often* say things that sound like "liberal" theology, 
do you? ;-) ;-) )

----

RC> According to the early patristic view, the martyrdom of the
RC> two chief apostles is *constitutive* of their apostolic
RC> mission, and their martyrdom in Rome is constitutive of the
RC> leadership role of Rome.

DW> I don't understand the use of `constitutive' here.  The apostles
DW> were apostles because they were chosen as such by Christ. Their
DW> martydom may have been a result of their apostleship-although
DW> I don't think all of the apostles were martyred.

I think John's death in exile counts as martyrdom, too; but martyrdom 
is not just a consequence of apostleship -- it is the fulfillment of 
the apostolic mission, because (I quote again from the article):

    what the early Church considers important in the act of martyrdom
    is that Christ himself testifies in and through the human martyr.  
    Christ himself suffers and triumphs over death in the martyr and 
    thus the martyr reveals the power and glory of Christ in his 
    suffering.  He becomes so transparent that his testimony is no 
    longer just a human voice; he can be called "logos theou", the
    true and powerful word of God himself.  (Ignatius of Antioch,
    "Letter to the Romans") 
    This explains why martyrdom is essential to the apostolic 
    ministry.  It perfects the apostle in his function as apostle.

-----

RC> "... The apostles are not replaced: they remain
RC> present and carry out their work *through the college of
RC> bishops* until the end of the world....  What makes this
RC> unique "being in one another" possible is the Holy Spirit.

DW> I can't accept this.  I assert that it is manifest that some bishops
DW> and some popes, have been spiritually and doctrinally corrupt.
DW> For example, a bishop that would defend the sale of indulgences
DW> while suppressing Luther's teachings strikes me as more than a
DW> little corrupt, both spiritually and doctrinally.
DW> How could this be a fruit of the Holy Spirit and the reigning of the
DW> martyrs?

Surprise: the Catholic Church agrees with your judgment that simony 
is a sin!  :-)  Anybody who defended it was *wrong*.  

Please note what I mentioned: the apostles carry out their work
through the *college of bishops*.  That's a technical term referring
to the collectivity of all the bishops in the Church.

So not all the acts of the bishops and popes are part of the apostles' 
reign: not their acts as individuals; not even their *virtuous* acts as 
individuals: but in their **collective** ministry of teaching, 
sanctifying and ruling the Church they continue the ministry of the 
apostles.  
-----

RC> What, then, is special about the relationship between Peter
RC> and Paul and the Church of Rome? ...According to the
RC> testimony of the Church's liturgy, the intercessory influence
RC> of the saints is attested especially in that place and
RC> community in which their bodies were buried.  

DW> Perhaps the key word here is `attested'.  That means, in effect,
DW> that the saints, and their intercessory influence are remembered.

Here's that same sad reduction we noticed earlier:  instead of a living
action of God's saints that exists objectively in the present, you would 
have only a subjective memory to inspire us, a memory of God's action in 
the past.  

Instead of a Church that battles and teaches and conquers down 
the ages, a living Body of Christ extended through history, we would
have only a *memory* of Christ's Apostles, separated from us by 
death, leaving us bereft until the parousia would restore us to communion 
with our brethren and our God.

But we could not believe this and still affirm what we hold;  we *do* believe in 
the Holy Spirit, in Whom everything is possible: the holy catholic Church, the 
communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting; we believe in Him who said, I will give you another
Paraclete, who will lead you into all the truth.

---
Richard Chonak, norris@athena.mit.edu