HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan Gilligan 303-497-3861)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: women's schools and physics (was Re: gender balance)
Date: 23 Jul 1992 00:54:28 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <BrJ6p6.A9A@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> bgarfink@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (beth diane garfinkel) writes:
>I think it might have been interesting to go to an all-girls high
>school; I probably would have ended up a lot more self-confident.  And
>who knows, I might have become a physicist instead of a musician!
>
>I have a friend who went to Smith for awhile, who constantly says that
>being in an all-female college has made her much more perceptive (of
>"clicks" and things), even though she doesn't consider herself a
>feminist.

Once again, I'm going to risk talking on the basis of limited
anecdotal experience. I am a physicist. The women I knew in graduate
school (in physics, chemistry, and biology) who had gone to women's
colleges started at a disadvantage in terms of the quality of their
preparation relative to the men and to the women who had gone to
coeducational schools (taking as my measure, performance in classes
and ability to pass preliminary and qualifying exams). This did not
stop one woman from catching up and becoming a first-rate scientist
within a few years. Another never did manage to catch up and flunked
out (a rare event at this particular graduate school) despite having
been at the top of her class in college. In contrast, the women I knew
who had gone to coeducational schools were on a par with the men from
day one.  My suspicion is that a lot of women's colleges are
(consciously or unconsciously) buying into the assumption that science
is too hard for women, so they teach a watered down curriculum.
However, I don't have any direct evidence to support this conclusion.
I would be interested to hear from others who know more and can help
me strengthen my hypothesis or convince me that I should throw it out.

One thing I should make clear is that there are so few women in
physics (about ten percent, or two per entering class in my grad
school) that I don't have a large sample (I knew two women in physics,
two others in other sciences, who had gone to women's colleges, and
about a dozen in physics who had attended coed colleges) so my
generalizations should be treated with due suspicion.

---Jon
-- 

Disclaimer --- The government probably disagrees with my opinions.


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From: simmonsk@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (SIMMONS KURT JOSEPH)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: SEXUAL HARASSMENT: STORIES,IDEAS,ETC NEEDED
Date: 21 Jul 1992 14:34:57 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Summary: I need information from several viewpoints for a class project.
Keywords: SEXUAL HARASSMENT, LAWS, BUSINESS, WOMEN
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

Hello Folks;

   I am leading a business class discussion on sexual harassment.  The
focus will be primarily in the workplace although ideas from elsewhere
will be thoroughly applicable.  The discussion will be on Tuesday night
and my paper will be due on Thursday so I will need replys before then.
Anonymity will be guaranteed.  If you do not want your company to know
do not put its name in your signature as I will be saving without headers.

What I need;

1.  Personal experiences (male and female) of types of harassment 
    that you have gone through at work or elsewhere (wolf whistles and
    "HEY BAYBEES" are assumed, more subtle or varied forms are needed).

2.  Stories how about how they affect your performance.

3.  What you did or did not do, can or can not do.  What you would do if 
    you had nothing to fear.  What fears you have.  Varied personnal
    perspectives on the "hopelessness" of the situation.

4.  How long before a "fond" gaze becomes harassment?

5.  What steps your firm or other firms you know have taken to curb it?

6.  Has anything changed at work or at home since the Hill-Thomas hearings.

7.  What you would say to the White Male Establishment if you could tell
    them anything on the subject?

8.  Anything else you can think of.

9.  Foreign country perspectives welcome.  Include cultural background
    if possible.


Thank you very much.

If you'd like summary information posted let me know.

Kurt.

simmonsk@ucsu.Colorado.edu





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From: michael@psych.toronto.edu (Michael Gemar)
Subject: Re: A feminist style socio-economic reform!
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: 25 Jul 92 04:55:37 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.010819.29064@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> AGRSS@lure.latrobe.edu.au ("SUBBAIAH,Santharam") writes:
>	I plan to propose a series of reforms that could be considered
>by a feminist when he or she becomes the president of the USA, or
>better still, when he or she becomes an influencial leader of the
>strongest lobby in the corridors of White House.
>
>REFORM 1.
>	"All women who deliver normal children should be compensated
>in monetory terms for their child bearing services".
>

Frankly, I don't see how the delivery of "normal" children is a
"service".  As someone who has decided with my spouse *not* to have
children, due to (among other things) the problems of overpopulation,
I see no reason why I should pay to have someone *else* produce kids.
Having children is a personal choice (at least when adequate birth
control is available), and is not a "service" to the state, any more
than having a dog is.

- michael


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From: muffy%remarque.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:59:03 GMT
	<l6klejINNmu9@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated

In article <l6klejINNmu9@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> rberlin@birdland.Eng.Sun.COM (Rich Berlin) writes:

>Again, it may be fair, but there is something morally suspect about
>dividing up the world this way.  A need is a need and an injustice is
>an injustice, and our duty to address it is neither heightened nor
>lessened by the race or sex of the victim.

Analogy time: I live in a two-bedroom apartment.  I have one bedroom,
my roommate has the other, we share the living room and kitchen.  One
morning, I notice the place is a real mess.  I only have an hour
before I have to go to work.  My roommate's room would take an hour to
clean (but two hours for me, because I don't know where everything
goes), mine will take two hours, and the living room and kitchen will
take two hours.  Ther eis simply *no way* that I can get the entire
place clean.  Where do I concentrate my efforts?  Chances are very
good that I will spend the time on the areas that I use and which I
have therefore more contorl over and more interest in/understanding
of.

On the other hand, if I decide to spend the time in the living
room/kitchen, I'm not going to clean around my roommate's stuff; I'm
going to consider it and deal with it as well as I can.

I do not believe that concentrating on issues that specifically affect
women means that you must ignore the effect of those issues (or the
possible solutions) on men.

>It is equally absurd to work to change womens' rights and roles in
>society without paying any attention to mens' intimately related
>rights and roles.  Gender justice is as indivisible as any other
>kind.

That's odd, because it does not seem that gender *IN*justice is
indivisible.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn

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From: nadel@aero.org (M.H. Nadel)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Olympics and Exclusion of Women
Date: 30 Jul 1992 17:06:31 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

The equestrian events are open to both men and women.  If I recall correctly,
women and men compete against one another in archery, as well.

A more interesting example is open skeet shooting.  This was in the Olympics
for the first time this year.  And was mixed sex.  A Chinese woman won the
gold.  For the last time, since in future Olympics it's going to be men only.
I have no idea why.  But this is the sort of thing that seems downright 
unfair.  

Miriam Nadel
-- 
"You make it in this world for one reason and for one reason alone: because the
King of the Orangutans likes you and grants you success."   - James Powell
						    
nadel@aerospace.aero.org


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From: uunet!infmx!proberts@ncar.ucar.EDU (Paul Roberts)
Subject: Re: A feminist style socio-economic reform!
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Date: 25 Jul 92 05:00:12 GMT

In article <14hv2nINNon@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!mailrus!gatech!mit-eddie!meshugge.media.mit.edu!cindy@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Cindy Blank-Edelman) writes:
>RAM SUBBAIAH writes:
>
>> REFORM 1.
>>         "All women who deliver normal children should be compensated
>> in monetory terms for their child bearing services".
>
>Without responding to your general idea of paying women to have
>children, I must object to your proposed discrimination against women
>who bear "abnormal" children.  Children with disabilities will face
>many forms of discrimination, unfortunately; do you really want them
>to start out their lives that way?  Are disabled children less
>valuable to society?  Why do you make such a distinction in your
>proposal?
>
>--Cindy Blank-Edelman

How about if society pays women NOT to have children, same idea
as when they pay farmers not to grow certain crops?

Paul

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From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Olympics and Exclusion of Women
Date: 30 Jul 1992 04:45:40 GMT
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Distribution: world
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Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

judith@super.super.org (Judith D. Schlesinger) writes:

>The equestrian events are mixed sex--both for the horses and the riders :-).
>I can't think of any others, though.

Hmmmm... According to Trivial Pursuit, Archery is also mixed.  (But they are
often wrong.)  I would like to propose the following thought experiment:
collect the winning times, distances, weights, etc. for the medal winners of
both sexes in those sports that have separate mens and womens competitions with
otherwise identical conditions.  Now suppose (for the sake of argument) that
in some particular event, the man winning the bronze usually outperformed the
woman winning the gold.  That would mean that if that particular event were 
opened to mixed competition, there would be no more medals awarded to women
in that event.  Would mixed competition be a "good" thing under those
conditions?  I would be interested in seeing figures for men's and women's
weightlifting, if some sports lover out there has them on tap.

--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
                                   | cheap.   -- Thomas Jefferson


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From: uunet!mailrus!gatech!mit-eddie!meshugge.media.mit.edu!cindy@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Cindy Blank-Edelman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Why she took my name/ narrow minded views..
Date: 22 Jul 92 00:45:13 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: M.I.T. Media Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

Ismail writes:

[much omitted]

> I think that the issues related to participatory
> democracy and decision making by consensus are far
> more in touch with our lives than  last names and
> clothes that seem to occupy soc.feminism nowadays.

I agree with you, but I still don't understand why they have to be
mutually exclusive.

To clarify: let's say that an organization has instituted
participatory democracy and consensus-style decision making.  Yay.
The organization has a meeting.  Because of their previous positions,
all of the women at the meeting are referred to as "secretaries", and
called by their first names, while all of the men are referred to as
"bosses" and called "Mr. Last Name".  Is this situation really
conducive to consensus or equal participation by all?  I don't think
so.  The people in the organization won't be on an equal level until
the titles are dropped and people are referred to in the same way
(either with first or last names).  Until that symbolic name change
occurs, insidious inequality will persist. 

I think it is the same thing in marriage.  In the effort to be more
equal partners in our marriage, and make decisions by consensus, we
made sure the symbolism of our names would not hold us back.  Now,
what's wrong with that? :-)

--Cindy Blank-Edelman




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From: peterson@physics.purdue.EDU ("Julie L. Peterson")
Subject: purdue Women in Physics
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 25 Jul 92 06:10:49 GMT

  At Purdue University there is a very large Physics department with
 very few visible females.  We just recieved our first Professor who
 is a woman.  Those of us who wish to create a less hostile and more
 safe enviroment for learning are joining forces this year to
 stregthen out Women in Physics program as an all purpose support
 group.  We plan to organize and mostly increase visibility of the
 female population so we will not be ignored.  The atmosphere here as
 I and others like me see it is in need of some fresh air.  This year
 one of our grad students was kidnapped and brutally mutilated and
 killed.  This summer there have been four "attacks" in the past 2
 weeks.  The student population at Purdue University, sometimes known
 as the "hotbed of student rest" needs some awakening.

  What I ask for is help.  If you have advise, suggestions, ideas,
 anything.... opportunities for us to organize tours of scientific
 interest nearby...  news of any grants or awards that our membership
 could benifit from job opportunities...  If you could let us know, we
 would Greatly Appreciate your help.  Help us get started!!!!!!  Thank
 you in advance,

                               Julie Peterson, junior in physics, Purdue Univ.
                               Women in Physics.


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From: "Joanne M. Karohl" <jk13+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Olympics and Exclusion of Women
Date: 30 Jul 1992 20:03:41 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
	<2423@rd1632.Dayton.NCR.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

Steve writes:

>And, surprisingly,
>there are no mixed-sex events in any of the Olympic sports (or did I
>miss one?).

The mixed sex events are the equestrian events and shooting.  I heard
rumors that after a woman won a top prize in one of the shooting events,
there was a movement to segregate them by sex;  any truth to this?

Also, I am interested in the history behind allowing women to
participate in the equestrian events with the men.  Does anyone have any
info on this?


Joanne


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From: chenowet@rd1632.daytonoh.ncr.COM (Steve Chenoweth)
Subject: Re: Olympics and Exclusion of Women
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: Steve Chenoweth <chenowet@rd1632.daytonoh.ncr.COM>
Organization: NCR Technology & Development, Dayton, Ohio
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:05:20 GMT

There are plenty of examples of exclusions and differing standards for
women in the Olympics.  (These are documented in the many available
books about the Olympics.  The various explanations they give for
treating women differently would be an interesting study in itself.)

As an example, until just a few years ago, women only ran events of up
to 800 meters in Olympic track and field.  You still don't see some
events such as the pole vault or hammer throw.  I believe that the
triple jump was added for women just this year.  And, surprisingly,
there are no mixed-sex events in any of the Olympic sports (or did I
miss one?).

--
Steve.Chenoweth@Dayton.NCR.com

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From: tittle@alexandre-dumas.ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:44:46 GMT

In <robert.712443872@labyrinth> uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.ucar.EDU (Robert Coleman) writes:

>	One of the results of a feminism focussed on "women's issues"
>is the obvious power imbalance involved in the draft.  We solve the
>"women's voting" problem, but since the draft is a "responsibility",
>and "negative effect" instead of something to be gained, the feminist
>movement, on the whole, passes this issue by.
>	This is part of my overall problem with the "women first"
>approach of feminism.  Women have had the vote for IDunnoHowManyYears,
>yet they've never had to bear the responsibility, the way men do, for
>paying the ultimate price for the freedom to vote.

You are ignoring two very real facts: one is that women have been
involved in probably almost every war in history.  There is a long
record of women disguising themselves as men, working alongside men
(perhaps as nurses or other "non-soldier" capacity, but running
similar risks to being killed), and so forth.  The other is that there
are hundreds of thousands of women trying to make their careers in the
military.

I, too, think the feminist stance is a little problematic, though to
be fair they are philosophically against *any* form of the draft, for
men or women (and keep in mind there IS NO DRAFT NOW (although it
COULD be reinstated (NOT likely -- volunteers are much more
efficient))).  But there are many women voting with their feet, as it
were.

--Cindy
--
	"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what
	feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist
	whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a
	doormat, or a prostitute."  -- Rebecca West, 1913
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From: tittle@alexandre-dumas.ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:39:34 GMT

In <robert.712351700@labyrinth> uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.ucar.EDU (Robert Coleman) writes:

>	Though I agree that what you've said is true, it isn't quite
>my basic point.  You're still focussing on women as "oppressed",
>making men "oppressed by side effect".
>	I step back one step further than that.  The system oppresses
>both of us.  It makes it difficult or impossible for either of us to
>have free choice about the way we want to spend our lives.  It forces
>both of us to try to shoehorn into a stereotype that may not fit our
>personality or our desires; it makes us both unhappy.

I think I see where we disagree.

I agree with you about the larger picture, but it is my firm opinion
that until the majority of men (and women) recognize women's
oppression they will never understand their (men's) own.  If you don't
see confining women to the house as oppressive and unfair, you will
not make the connection that being forced to be the sole bread-winner
is also unfair.

Both are unfair, but the position of being a housewife is seen as
being of little status and the position of being a bread-winner is
seen as important.  And women are thus of lower status because the
lower status stuff is supposed to be enough to occupy them; men of
higher status because they can't be bothered with the low status stuff
(witness the short shrift househusbands still get).

Thus, for me, the tilt toward working on the unfairness that is
regarded as unimportant, trivial, or degrading.  Only then will the
unfairness in what is regarded as important and rewarding will be
readily discernable.

--Cindy
--
	"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what
	feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist
	whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a
	doormat, or a prostitute."  -- Rebecca West, 1913
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