From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:21:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.210033.18492@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.165015.23880@rs.com>, horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
>writes:
>
>|>In article 708@dscomsf.desy.de, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
>|>writes:
>|>>In article <1992Sep6.165554.26010@discus.technion.ac.il>,
>|>>davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>|>>
>|>>|>The Arabs that sat here before the Jews came will be welcome as Israeli
>|>>|>citizens (and are welcomed) - they have no national rights here.
>|>>
>|>>The claim that any culture has the right to raise itself to the status of law
>|>is
>|>>completely false. That has been the root of political oppression since
>|>Soccrates
>|>>was executed for opposing the cultural values of the state. There are no
>|>nations
>|>>and there are no states, only individuals.
>|>
>|>Sorry, but European-style (or any other, for that matter) anarchy has proved
>|>itself in each of the last three centuries to be (a) unworkable, and
>|>(b) unacceptable.
>
>If you had any historical knowlege you would know that three hundred years is
>about the time since the invention of the nation state. It is the idea of the
>nation state that caused the bloodiest wars of Europe.
>

Nationalism is indeed one of the contributors to bloody wars, however
the experiments of abolishing Nationalism caused even more of the same
if not worse. Stalin was a voracious anti-nationalist he mixed peoples
all over the Soviet Union - today after his non-nationalistic dream is
broken to pieces God knows how to straighten things up in areas such as
Nagorno-Karabach, Crimea, Moldavia and the Baltics. It is only ironic
that only a plea for nationalism saved Russia from the claws of Hitler.

Another interesting of No-Nation experiment was conducted in Yugoslavia
by Marshal Jozef Broz Tito. We all know what happens afterwards.

I think that Phill is right that nationalism is not a good thing in
general but trying to abolish it and replace it by federations and 
confederations seldom works (Switzerland/Belgium/Canada and USA).

The Belgian and Canadian and even the American trials are not free from
conflicts (in America today the racial conflicts are a mirror to the
problematics of cohabitation of nations). 

I think that the Jews cannot afford to set an example for the Arab
world in ultra-liberal principles --> Survival is far more important.

>
>|>Don't even *think* that we Israelis are going to repeat you European's
>|>mistakes and/or failures, however "noble" they might sound.
>
>You are trying to copy the greatest mistake of British policy ever, the
>occupation of Ireland. Machiavellis settlements strategy only works if the
>settlers become part of the community in the way that the Romans he cites did.
>It does not work when the settlements are merely fortified outposts of the
>occupying power.

I think that without Transfer of population the fortune of the Jewish 
settlements in WB & G is indeed grim, mainly because the Jews in Israel
have no more will power and enthusiasm to carry on with their fight for
land, the last elections show that the people prefers "Bread & Entertainment"
for ideology and future. This may seem happy and fun for outsiders, but
for me as an Israeli it means that Israel is on its path to damnation
and destruction. Israel cannot survive without enthusiasm and a sense
of challenge.
 
>|>As for "There are no nations and there are no states, only individuals",
>|>well,
>|>facile statements like this one only serve to illustrate the naivety,
>|>shallowness,
>|>and immaturity of your world view.
>
>Why do I repeat vulgar abuse? Because it shows more about the mind of the person
>who said it than the person who they are aimed at. Horen is a knee jerk
>nationalist, in fact a knee jerk nationalist who lives in the wrong country.
>Like all such people their brand of patriotism goes down well at home and badly
>in the rest of the world.
>
>If he knew your politics he would know that I was echoing a statement by Margret
>Thatcher, "There is no such thing as society, only individuals in society". I
>don't suppose he is capable of understanding the ideas behind that statement
>either.

It seems to me that citation was out of context in a major way! Is it 
the same Maggy Thatcher who opposed the European unity fiercely on
grounds of less independence for Britain? Is it the same Prime Minister
who sent her troops 8000 Km from home to protect some sheep from the 
nasty Argentinian "individuals"? :-))))

>Who was it that was asking for more of the ideas like Ghandis?
 
I think that Ghandi's ideas were very nice but not applicable - the
Indian independence could have been reached in many ways - it was
inevitable and his ideas were only the icing on the cake.
Many situations call for violence as the only hopefull way and inviolence
is quite ineffective. I lament this fact, but this is the lesson of
Munich 1938 and Auschwitz for me.

>
>Phill Hallam-Baker
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
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