HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM (David Scheid)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re:  Aikido, jujutsu, aiko-jutsu, etc...
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:13:44 GMT
Reply-To: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: danzan.ebay.sun.com

In article 8546@analog.com, alex.soto@analog.com (Alex Soto) writes:
>
>Well I am by far an expert, but I remember reading somewhere that Aikido and
>Jujitsu both originated from Shaolin Chin Na (I believe) not from jujutsu.
>I can't comment in appearance though since that is not the Shaolin style that
>I am learning.

Aikido was developed by Ueshiba in this Century. It stems primarily from 
Daito Ryu Aikijutsu with strong influences of Ueshiba's Omote religious 
beliefs.

Jujutsu stems from China as well as being indigenous. In Danzan Ryu,
we have a list called Yawara (which Okazaki [the founder] called an
'old school of jujutsu'). Yawara is written with the same Kanji as
Jujutsu and so the reader could say either word with equal correctness.

In our system, Yawara equates to hand arts. These are simple wrist escapes,
locks, trips, hammerlocks, armbars, etc. Within my Org (AJJF), we have an
augmented list in which some Professors erroneously insisted on adding some
advanced throwing arts. Those arts which Okazaki taught as Yawara did not
include throws. Some trips and simple takedowns, for sure, but nothing fancy. 

So, Yawara (in our system) resembles quite closely the Chin Na arts of China.

But, Jujutsu does not end with Yawara. Kodokan Judo is an outgrowth of Jujutsu.
In its formative years it was called Kano Jujutsu. Kano recruited many old
masters and present day Kodokan curriculum owes more to Kano's recruiting that
to the original syllabus with which he began his Ryu.

The distinctive schools which were recruited by Kano include those specializing
in Shimete (constriction techniques) and Katame Waza (Grappling techniques)
as well as experts in Nagete (throwing techniques). 

Perhaps someone familiar with the countless Chinese styles could identify those
styles which emphasize the 3 above categories of study. I do not know of any 
style which excels in this area other than Jujutsu (Judo).

So, while Jujutsu may have ties to Chinese Arts, one look at Judo indicates
that there is a predominate amount of indigenous arts for which the Japanese
can be rightly proud of having developed.

---
Dave Scheid - All Disclaimers Apply
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: alex.soto@analog.com (Alex Soto)
Subject: re:  Aikido, jujutsu, aiko-jutsu, etc...
Originator: soto@thor
Organization: Analog Devices, Inc.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:38:45 GMT

From: alex.soto@analog.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: question about history of different styles
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Analog Devices, Inc.
Keywords: 

In article <Bxx71E.1Fq@math.uwaterloo.ca> gamiddle@math.uwaterloo.ca (Guy Middleton) writes:
>I'm trying to get some understanding of the differences in approach, and the
>history of, jujutsu, aiki-jujutsu, aikido, and judo.  As far as I can tell,
>they all are derived ultimately from jujutsu, but I'm not sure of how modern
>versions of each are related.
>
>As a concrete example: we (aiki-jujutsu) have a technique called nikyo, as do
>the aikido people.  While the footwork looks the same to me, the hand and arm
>positions are different -- the uke's seems to be held more loosely, and is
>straighter, in the aikido technique.
>
>In any case, it would be great if somebody who knows all these styles would
>like to comment.
>

Well I am by far an expert, but I remember reading somewhere that Aikido and
Jujitsu both originated from Shaolin Chin Na (I believe) not from jujutsu.
I can't comment in appearance though since that is not the Shaolin style that
I am learning.
	Mystic
(alex.soto@analog.com)


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Subject: Re: THE MASTER
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney
Date: 20 Nov 92 00:58:11 GMT

fwong@bnr.ca (Frank Wong) writes:
 >It's not too bad. Story is basically ; Jet Li comes to U.S. to visit
 >his Sifu, has to battle bad white guy who has beat up Sifu and destroyed
 >his herb shop (Bo Chi Lam). The fight scenes are o.k. , but there is
 >no comparison to Once Upon A Time In China : Wong Fei Hong 1 & 2.

I don't think many westerners will get to see Once Upon A Time in China 1 & 2,
since they are deliberately not subtitled.  (If I directed a film with 19th
century white kung fu experts called "Tiger" who spoke perfect Cantonese,
I'd make sure it wasn't subtitled. :-)

Jet Li was the one using the umbrella, right?  Impressive, to say the least.
What styles is he best known for?


--
 Iain Sinclair    axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: 10th Dan & Badass Karate Bullshit
Date: 15 Nov 92 22:33:03 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <Bxs2xn.AC7@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>Regarding older martial artists...
...
>Now if I were to get into a fight with one of these guys (why?),
>and they were stupid enough to fight me unarmed (unlikely) in
>a fair and open fight (even more unlikely and stupid), then I
>could probably beat him.  There are a few fortunate souls who
>manage to preserve their health/strength/speed into old age
>(Sig Kufferath comes to mind), and I might have more trouble
>with them.  But I still think that my instructor could whup me
>(I live in Indiana; "whup" is Hoosier for "defeat", derived from
>the Old American, "whip"; ie. "I whipped him.") if he used a 
>weapon, and I think he could find a suitable weapon fairly easily
>in a street environment (If not, he could always use a kubotai
>or a cane).
>
>Comments?

I guess I've been studying Shao-Lin Kung Fu for about as long
as you've been studying martial arts, maybe a little less,
depending on how you count it. Before that I had around 
another 10 years of training in other things (boxing, aikido,
shotokan, etc.). I'm about 5'11" 180 or 185 lbs. In our
system we spar a lot. I've sparred with a lot of people in our
system (and with people from other styles, for that matter), 
both more and less advanced than I. I've even fought a
few professional fighters (boxers and kickboxers), and
I have a reasonable idea of how good at fighting I am. I have 
no doubt whatever that our Grandmaster, Sin The', can stomp me, and
my estimation is based on my judgement of people I've fought, 
rather than on awe or homage to people's rank or station.

Now, Sin The' is only in his fifties, so maybe he doesn't
count in the Awesome Old Guy Fighters discussion. If what I've
been reading here and there about the effect of continued exercise
on aging is any indication, though, I imagine that we could expect
a very good fighter to keep most of his conditioning as he
grows older, unless he sustains permanent injuries, and I would
certainly expect him to get better at the more mental aspects
of fighting, such as timing, strategy, tactics, and so on.

I'd like to hear comments from anyone who has worked with
Kwa Saihung or seen him spar; I know that there are people
reading the group who have at least seen him at seminars.
He's getting up there in years and has a vaguely articulated
reputation as a strong fighter even now.
From: david@xlnt.com (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: rec.martial-arts.humor
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:20:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: xlnt.1248
Organization: XLNT Designs, Inc (XDI)

In article <1992Nov12.152229.4934@srg.srg.af.mil>, schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov11.193047.18282@zip.eecs.umich.edu> lauren@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Brian T. Murray) writes:
|> >2.   It stands to reason that with so many 70 year olds being in good
|> >     shape, some of them must be in *great* shape.
|> >
|> >3.   Presumably, a 70 year old person, in great physical shape, who
|> >     has been studying martial arts for 50-60 years must be a
|> >     formidable adversary.
|> 
|> 	I've been scorched by slow old, men in fencing, and in retrospect, the
|> issue wasn't what shape they were in. It was because my timing was easy to
|> figure (I had only one speed), and my attacks were predictable. And they had
|> enough presence of mind to exploit it. It's basically the old age and treachery
|> thing.
|> 	Ever go to see a movie, and maybe 10 minutes into the movie, you know
|> pretty much what the entire movie is going to be like? That must be what it's
|> like for these oldsters to play with us.
|> 
|> 	No doubt, these little old men sit around and give us reviews, "Well,
|> Stephen's latest work is energetic, but is full of the standard
|> cliche's. Entertaining, but predictable, and horribly overacted - hard to tell
|> if he's being campy, if he really expects to fight this way. Wait for it to
|> come out on videotape."
|> --
|> 	Stephen Chan
|> 	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net

Stephen Chan is the most entertaining of all posters to r.m-a in my opinion.
He is humorous at the same time makes a substantial point.

I attended a 2nd dan test (the only one ever attempted in our school)
and the testee was asked by the teacher which is more important, timing
or speed.  The testee replied, "Timing, speed means nothing if the
window of opportunity is missed."  The teacher added, "Also because as
one ages, speed and strength degrades but timing does not."

As they say in business, "Timing is everything."

-- 
David Johnson
XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
david@xlnt.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mhirsch@volkl.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch)
Subject: Re: some questions
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:28:37 GMT

It sounds to me like your Aikido friend has missed the prat about
blending and harmonizing.  I consider it very unlike a Real Aikidoka
(TM) to argue with someone about the worth of their art.  Even if
someone starts attacking Aikido, you must learn to get off the line of
attack and blend with it, not counterattack.  
--


Michael D. Hirsch		mhirsch@cs.princeton.edu    
Computer Science Department	Voice: (609) 258-1751       
Princeton NJ, 08544		FAX:   (609) 258-1771       
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Subject: Re: Question: fumikomi (foot-stamping)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:53:30 GMT
	<gf36Jhe00YUoEuo2F_@andrew.cmu.edu>
	<JON.92Nov20114048@zeus.med.utah.edu>
	<1992Nov23.143839.24562@srg.srg.af.mil>
Organization: University of Utah

In article <1992Nov23.143839.24562@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:


   In article <JON.92Nov20114048@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
   >Very interesting.  I have been taught not to stop, but to accelerate
   >through.  In fact, I was taught that, at the time the front foot hits
   >the ground, the front leg's shin bone must be at least vertical, and
   >it is better if the knee is slightly forward of the ankle.

	   I've kind of wondered about the method myself, but one thing about
   Hamilton's Karate style was that the stances were very high, so an overcommit-
   ment of your mass would tend to put your center in much more danger. That's
   kind of the explanation I eventually settled on.

In fact, Kendo stances are even higher than most Karate stances.

   >  That way,
   >you can continue to accelerate forward.  The reasoning is that the
   >faster you charge in, the less opportunity your opponent has for a
   >counterblow.

	   But if you are overcommited to the first technique, then it will take
   you longer to launch the second technique. And you might end up grappling with
   your opponent, which is not what a Karateka wants to be doing.

Perhaps the difference in philosophy may be based on the art.  In
Kendo, you are considered "safe" at a swordguard-to-swordguard impasse
(tsuba-zeriai).  When you charge in for a strike in Kendo, you want to
spend the smallest amount of time possible in striking range.
Theoretically, you start from a distance too far to strike.  As you
charge forward, you briefly pass through the proper striking distance,
where you deliver your blow.  By continuing to charge forward, you
quickly pass into a distance that is too close for your opponent to
strike a counterblow in case you miss.

I will admit that I would be less enthusiastic about charging in to
close quarters if my opponent had a sharp sword, and could punch,
kick, and trip me as well.  Nevertheless, stopping precisely at the
striking distance does make you a prime target for a counterblow.

Speaking of commitment, Kendo is a great art for the cultivation of
late commitment.  The backstroke of the blade is always the same --
straight back -- so your opponent will not know your true intentions
until your blade is on the downswing.  You can sometimes win by
charging straight in, and waiting until your sword tip is fully drawn
back before you decide which target to hit.  If you're lucky, your
spirit will cause your opponent to flinch, and open a target for you.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: George A. Dillman?
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:35:28 GMT

In article weigand@pecan.cns.udel.edu writes:
>I've been reading a lot about a karate instructor named George Dillman
>in some of those cheezy karate/kf magazines. He has a series of video
>tapes about how to apply pressure points into fighting - a subject that
>continues to interest me. 

I don't know much about Dillman except what I've read in the the
MA rags.  I do have a friend who was initially a Dillman student,
but subsequently became a student of Taika Oyata.  Oyata is the
Okinawan master (10th dan!) from whom Dillman learned most of
what he knows about vital points, or so say the Oyata fans.  By
the way, Oyata will be conducting a seminar in the Washington,
D.C. area on Saturday.  If you are (or anyone else is)
interested in details, email me and I'll give you the
particulars.
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: Tae Kwon Do, getting a Black Belt, etc...
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 13:31:34 GMT

In article hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben) writes:
>  Hello!  I only recently discovered this group - I don't have a specific
>question to ask, but someone may want to make some comments...
>  I have been training in TKD here in Ft Collins for about a year now, and I am
>presently a red belt (white,yellow,green,blue,red,black).  This was not my

From my perspective, that seems like *very* rapid progress. Just
to give you a sense of the other extreme, it took me nearly five
years to reach the red belt level in TKD.  I was spending about
8 hours/week as opposed to your 12 - 15, but even so your rate
of progress has been about 3 times as fast as mine was.

>for black, you essentially have to test twice.  By the way, is this how most
>schools do this?  What happens is we have 'Black Belt recommend' which is what
>you get if you pass test 1, and you also get to wear the belt.  Then, the
>second test is for '1st Dan.'  Now, I don't believe that there is any way that
>I can become 1st Dan in just 6 or 7 months, partially because I don't think
>anyone should be able to get it within that short a time span.  But I think that

If you made it to red in a year, black in 6 or 7 months might not
be out of the question.  I've seen the double-dan test before,
but only in the case of people with dan ranking from some other
organization upon joining a new school.  You take an abbreviated
exam to get a provisional belt which allows you to get up to
speed in the new environment.  Then you confirm (or lose) it
with a full test six months later.  Another device is to require
a test for "black stripe" between red and black.  This is how it
was done in the school where I trained, and I guess you could
say that it amounted to taking two black belt exams.
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
From: westreic@skye.oc.nps.navy.mil (Eric Westreich)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Charging for training?
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:37:46 GMT
Organization: Naval Postgraduate School,Monterey CA

In article <urbin.90.722013046@interlan.interlan.com> urbin@interlan.interlan.com (Mark Urbin) writes:
>In article <37740020@otter.hpl.hp.com> ber@otter.hpl.hp.com (Brenda Romans) writes:
>>I too was surprised at the way martial arts are taught in the USA.  
>  A lot of stuff that goes in the USA suprises me too. :->
>[SNIP]
>
>>How exactly do the operations in the USA work?
>   There are no standards.  When I've been charged money, it's been from $4
>a month to $60 a month.  I've also found people who require no payment other
>than a good attitude (and sweeping the mats).  
>   It's a big country and you find all types.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

My wife and I were selling items at a Bargain Fair. People were asking 
what the price of some of the shirts were (still in good condition...I just have
a bigger neck now). When we said, 25 or 50 cents, people threw the shirts back  
in disgust. When we charged several dollars, they bought the shirts...after 
talking us down 25 to 50 cents.

Similarly, I've found that when I don't charge for martial arts lessons, many 
people are unmotivated about attending class. For some reason, most people
seem to take things for granted unless they pay for them. When my instructor
raised his association membership fee, his membership drastically rose. Maybe
this is a USA cultural thing, but I would guess that it's more widespread than
that. 

I don't think that I will teach for free again! I don't need to charge a fortune
but I find that if you charge at least something, that it weeds out some of the
less motivated students. If you are teaching a McDojo, then you want to take
everybody. On my scale, I'd rather have a few dedicated students.
This year, I spent every cent that I made on training equipment for my classes, 
dojo rent and on lessons from my martial arts instuctor anyway.


-- 

-Eric Westreich                                       Jeet Kune Do
 westreic@oc.nps.navy.mil                             KC6IMI
From: rpaw@ocf.berkeley.edu (Richard Tse-Woon Paw)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kicking with instep vs. ball
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:46:25 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: hailstorm.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov19.135933.26006@aber.ac.uk> azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward) writes:
>
>As has been pointed out, the foot is covered with a nice hard shoe, but 
>the shin isnt. Considering the tibial nerve runs down the shin in an exposed
>position, making it such a good target for causing foot drop and making the
>leg useless for such trivia as standing on, isnt it risky to use it as a 
>weapon? Particularly if it is blocke with something hard. Have you not then
>rednered yourself inoperable and unable to cope with followup attacks?
>
>Please feel free to be VERY rude, I ask from a position of complete ignorance
>for future reference.

One thing to remember is that if ou wear sneakers, the laces and the knot
can push into the top of your foot.  

As for damage to the shin, before trying a shin roundhouse, you've got to
condition the shin.  Proper conditioning will make the shin very strong and
allow it to take a lot of punishment.  Muay Thai fighters are probably the 
most famous example of this idea.  When you kick the target, lead with the
bone and dig into the tissue when you strike.  I usually use this kick to
the outer thigh of my opponent.  
-- 
Richard Tse-Woon Paw            Within each man is the most powerful weapon
rpaw@ocf.berkeley.edu                  on Earth.  ---  The human mind
rpaw@ucsee.berkeley.edu          
Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552)
Subject: Re: Forms or Kata
Organization: just me
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 15:29:00 GMT
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts 

In article <102591@bu.edu> dunger@crsa.bu.edu (David Unger) writes:
>
>	The definition of a kata ia as follows:
>
>Apre
>
>	A prearranged routine; Aplanned pattern of attack; A way
>of organizing techniques into a logical pattern so as to better learn
>the techniques and make a statement about your art; A formal dance.

You forgot "a good aerobic workout; a means of learning new techniques;
a means of understanding the basis of a particular set of techniques".
All of these are important too.

David Pipes

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bcarlson@denver.cba.du.edu
Subject: Re: Kicking with instep vs. ball
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 10:35:36 GMT

In article <Z5DcuB1w165w@ziggys.cts.com> cobra@ziggys.cts.com (Ron Lee)   
619/262-6384 writes:
> Let's consider some more physiology here:
> 
  The instep roundhouse also seems 
> to allow a kick with more raw power; blasting through anything in its
> way like a club or baseball bat.   However, if done too far out on the 
> instep, closer to the toes; or if done with too much uncontrolled force, 
> there is a risk of damage to the ankle due to a hyperextension caused by
> the resistance of the target mass to the force of your kick. 

Just a couple questions, How does the instep kick deliver more "raw power?" 
And would it really be intelligent to strike with the metacarpals and  
carpal bones? some of the most fragile and delicate bones in the body?!!!!  
Not to mention the greater number of nerve endings on the top on the foot  
equaling greater pain.

> 
> Let's get into physics:
> 
> Use of the ball of the foot concentrates all your energy into a spot 
> roughtly 2" wide (more or less).  That's why it's so good for breaking 
> boards.

and hitting people.........
> 
> Again, as the cliche' around her goes: "It depends on what you're trying 
> to accomplish."
> 
> Best Bet:  Experiment--see what's right for YOU
> 
> Ron Lee
> 2nd Dan
> Pacific Tang Soo Do, (Lakeside) San Diego, CA; USA [North America: 
> Earth...]
> 
>               cobra@ziggys.cts.com - BBS (619)262-6384
>                  Ziggy's Den Of Iniquity 

--
Bill Carlson                  
bcarlson@denver.cba.du.edu 
" I Can Fly "	Johnathan Livingston Seagull
From: kickda@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Damien Kixk)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Boxing Gyms
Date: 24 Nov 1992 01:53:23 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Department MSCS
Distribution: milw
Reply-To: kickda@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Damien Kixk)
NNTP-Posting-Host: studsys.mscs.mu.edu
Originator: kickda@studsys.mscs.mu.edu

       I am curious -- are there any places for boxing here in Brew City?
  I've tried looking in the yellow pages but I have not had much luck 
  finding anything.  Any information would be ... well, really information-
  al.  :-)
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                "hell is other people" - Jean Paul Sarte                   |
|                                mail sent by: Damien Kixk    :-(           |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kicking with instep vs. ball
Date: 19 Nov 92 13:59:33 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth


As has been pointed out, the foot is covered with a nice hard shoe, but 
the shin isnt. Considering the tibial nerve runs down the shin in an exposed
position, making it such a good target for causing foot drop and making the
leg useless for such trivia as standing on, isnt it risky to use it as a 
weapon? Particularly if it is blocke with something hard. Have you not then
rednered yourself inoperable and unable to cope with followup attacks?

Please feel free to be VERY rude, I ask from a position of complete ignorance
for future reference.