HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wpoor@poorhouse.lexington.ma.us (E. Ward Poor)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: QE II Grounding
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 12:55:02 EDT
Organization: Poor Associates
Reply-To: wpoor@poorhouse.lexington.ma.us
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v4


In article <l8cur8INN7tu@news.bbn.com> (rec.boats), levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin) writes:
_ In article <5445@transfer.stratus.com> kvk@questor.sw.stratus.com (Ken Koellner) writes:
_ |Does anyone know how many feet of water the QE II draws?
_ 
_ Seen on the news last night:
_ 
_ Minimum depth in the area, according to USCG charts, 39 feet at mean
_ low tide.  Charts on board the QE2 agreed.  Draft fully loaded is 34
_ feet.  Officer being interviewed said indirectly that that should be
_ enough margin, and besides at the time (relative to low tide) there
_ should have been an additional 2 feet. 

I don't know about all these precisely stated facts, but to me there is something
highly dubious about taking a massive object 950 feet long and driving it
at 24 knots and claiming that 5 feet clearance shoould have been sufficient.

Isn't it something like driving a fully loaded tractor trailer down a narrow
alley at 70 mph and claiming that since there is a foot clearance on both
sides that it must be okay?

----
Ward Poor            |  BCS Activist & CD-ROM Project Manager
41 Munroe Rd         |----------------------------------------
Lexington, MA 02173  |  Email: wpoor@poorhouse.lexington.ma.us
                     |         wpoor@world.std.com
617-861-1215         |    CIS: 76407,2370
From: hall@satie.psu.edu (PeggyHall)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Hydrofoil Stabilizers Re: Doelfin
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:04:35 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

I have recently purchased a hydrofoil for my 17 Ranger bass boat with a
  45 horse motor. This product dramatically improved hole shot and gave
  a better and more stable ride in rough seas. I was so impressed with
  this product that I installed one on my 20 foot Robalo center console
  which showed similar improvements. In fact, this deep vee hulled boat
  could now run through the  inlet on plane. 
I strongly reccomend this product to all fishermen regaurdless of boat
  size.                              

Good fishing mate!!!
From: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Whitewater footwear
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:05:51 GMT
Reply-To: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

I prefer the neoprene boots.  I understand that the instructors at NOC
like the Alps for much of what they do, except for kayaking.  They
apparently are concerned with snagging the straps on footbraces, tree
limbs, etc.
From: dce@smsc.sony.com (David Elliott)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Whitewater footwear
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:51:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: smsc.1992Aug17.215157.24701
Organization: Sony Microsystems Corp, San Jose, CA

I'm looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear?

My current favorite is the Deep See zippered boot (similar to the Ocean
Edge, but better for us folks with wide feet), which is great until you
need to scout in slippery gorges.  I even have a larger pair of these
that I can use in the colder season when I need to wear extra socks.

I've also tried standard athletic shoes with various types of socks
(from polyester to neoprene), and these are no better for me on rocks
or in the river, and aren't as warm to me.

A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.  Has anyone
(anyone who doesn't work at SGI, that is ;-) tried this?  How much
do these cost?  How well do they grip both wet and dry rocks?  Are
they comfortable enough to wear on long trips (both long days and
overnighters)?

Any other suggestions?  It might be useful to put together a
chart based on weather and river conditions, so include that
type of information.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: au143@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mikael Niku)
Subject: Help Me With RUSSIAN Canoes ! :-)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 16:01:08 GMT


        A new, good two-man canoe with paddles, weighing less than 30kg, 
swift and stable, easy to take to pieces and set up. Price: $170.
Advantageous, isn't it (compared with the usual $1700 in Finland) ? 
And why ? Because it's made in Russia.
 
        We bought four of russian Taimen-2 [Trout-2] canoes - well,
you might call them half-kayaks - and tried them on a 7-days, 100-km 
trip in northern Finland. They were just great both on the lake 
(in stormy weather !) and down the river. However, there was A
defect... the canoes were wonderful in whitewater, too, but not
so good AFTER it. This is because they have an aluminum frame
upholstered with rubberized fabric, and this fabric, of course,
doesn't much like rocks. So after having some contacts with
rocks during the day, we usually had to spend some time patching up the 
canoes in the evening.
 
        My question is: is there any fabric than can stand
contacts with rocks ? Is kevlar something I could use to make
a _perfect_ canoe out of T-2 ? Is it expensive ? 
        Any other suggestions ?
 
 
-- 
----- Mikael Niku [a.k.a. Turilas]
***** E-Mail: au143@cleveland.freenet.edu
----- SnailMail: Puodinmaentie 23, 91900 Liminka, FINLAND
*********************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Subject: Re: why no world record times
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:18:08 GMT

In <85976@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>Artificial whitewater courses serve several purposes, none of which have
>the slightest thing to do with "spoiled brats".

>1. They provide reliable water.  It's hard to train when there's no water,
>or too much water.

>2. Those with variable flow provide the ability to exercise athletes
>under differing conditions without waiting for the weather.

>3. Those with variable obstructions (e.g. South Bend) make it possible
>to alter the course in order to train paddlers to cope with different
>river situations.

>4. Those constructed on the outflows of various plant discharges
>(e.g. Dickerson) provide a *slightly* warmer environment in the winter.
>No course that I know of is warm enough in the winter to alleviate the
>ever-present danger of hypothermia.

>5. They provide competitive-grade whitewater in areas where it would
>not normally exist (e.g. Sea d'Urgell).

The problem is that this type of facility substantially adds to the cost
of training Olympic athletes.  Once one country has one, then any other
country that wants to stay competitive must also have one.  These days
an athlete has little chance of getting to the top unless their country
has lots of money for

   1) basic living expenses since training is a fulltime job.
   2) travelling expenses since training must be carried out year round (for
      Canadian athletes this would involve training for part of the year in
      another country).
   3) the best equipment and facilities.

>I suggest that you may wish to go down to Dickerson and observe the
>US Canoe and Kayak Team in training this winter before you use phrases
>like "spoiled brats".  Those people are out there *every day* no matter
>how bad the weather gets, and it is routine for them to paddle down
>the course, up the Potomac, and then to carry their boats back to the
>course through the snow, mud and whatever before starting again.  Heck,
>I watched Kara Ruppel practice for hours on the chilly Yough this weekend
>in rain coming down so hard that the gates were almost invisible.

Today's athletes certainly have to be given credit for working so hard.
I'm amazed that so many athletes are willing to concentrate so much time
into a single sport.  Personally, I like switching sports every few months
when the season changes.

There was one medal winner at Barcellona that also won a medal at the
Albertville winter games.  Athletes who can excel at several
different sports are pretty rare these days.
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"Why can't we just forget about our constitutional problems and go canoeing?"
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: re: spoiled brats who train
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:55:02 GMT
Organization: Naval Research Lab, Physical Acoustics, Washington, DC

pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:

>To me, that is a cop out.  We have world records in the Marathon, and there
>is no control on how hilly, wet, cold, etc the course is.  Same with most
>road running events.  Same with most outdoor sports, I would think.
>Why this insistince on a totally level playing field?  Personally, I think
>it's things like this that make the olympics so damn expensive, and make
>most athletes (except Silken Lauman, of course), spoiled brats who won't
>even _train_ is the conditions are a little off.

>Just say no to rowing tanks and artificial white water courses!

Are you comparing times for Boston with N.Y.C.'s marathon?

So, I guess TAC no longer worries about wind-aided 100 meter sprints 
and long jumps?

No need for a stadium, there is a handy cow pasture right here.

Water polo?, well there is a sewage ditch that we can widen.

The fact is, the governing bodies like to make the playing field as level
as possible; additionally, the host countries like to pack as many seats
as possible around each venue.  More seats == more $$.  Except for the
rare instances where the host city is within 2 hours of a suitable white
water venue, what is wrong with building an artifical one?  The course
can remain for use by the host nation.

As for spoiled brats who won't train, you, sir, don't have a clue as to
what real athletes are willing to do to try and make an olympic team.  
I don't ever recall conditions being an input into a training schedule.
Wind, rain, snow, ice, heat, really bad conditions are all possible on
race day and so you train in those conditions.  Besides, a schedule is
a schedule and you don't make exceptions.  Try hi-kneeling a Canadian
single blade (you're in Canada go borrow Larry Cains') in 25mph wind when
it is 40 degrees in 1' swells.  Then go do 5X1000m, followed by 5X500m.
A typical day last spring would have 15 - 20 boats on the river doing this.   


Larry
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: mrb@earth.wustl.edu (Mike Bray)
Subject: Fair price for a Noah Jetty?
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:15:15 GMT

Hi.  What's a fair price for a used Noah Jetty, with skirt, paddle
helmet, PFD, and flotation bags?  
Also, can anyone confirm that this is a good beginner's boat?

Thanks,
Mike Bray
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: nealf@mdd.comm.mot.com (Neal Friedman)
Subject: Re: Whitewater food
Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 01:12:40 GMT

For fast energy, light (weight that is) snacks for kayaking/hiking etc., I
have found dried fruit slices to be great: they tend to expand a bit after
you eat them, and contain a nice mix of sugars and more complex carbos. 
I've encountered "honey dried" pineapple rings, which are *really* loaded
with sugar.

Bagels are good too.  Get fancy ones (cinamon & raison, or blueberry...) and
eat them plain with water.  Impossible to smoosh, and they keep well for a 
couple days in a plastic bag (no flames from the purists - I know they are
meant to be eaten fresh with cream cheese...).

Starburst (tm) candies are the best thing for a small, fast sugar hit.  I take
them downhill skiing: eat on the ski lift up, then ski down as the sugar
high takes hold.  They also keep your mouth from drying out, and since you
tend to keep the mouth closed when sucking on the candy, provide protection
from sunburn inside your mouth on snow or glacier.  Also good for a quick
energy hit after a cold swim -- I keep a few in my first aid kit.

Also try fig newtons, oatmeal cookies, carrots, gorp, cheese (individually
wrapped string cheese keeps forever), or a mix of these.

I know a climber/hiker who always has 2 pounds of Goldfish crackers in
his backpack...
From: kbittner@.oracle.com (Kurt Bittner)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Whitewater footwear
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:10:00 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corp., Redwood Shores CA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Aug17.215157.24701@smsc.sony.com> dce@smsc.sony.com (David Elliott) writes:
>I'm looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear?
>
>A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.  Has anyone
>(anyone who doesn't work at SGI, that is ;-) tried this?  How much
>do these cost?  How well do they grip both wet and dry rocks?  Are
>they comfortable enough to wear on long trips (both long days and
>overnighters)?

As someone who climbs and kayaks, I would highly discourage the use of rock 
shoes for kayaking.  Rock shoes have almost no traction on wet rocks.  They 
are tight and uncomfortable, and they would probably disintegrate under the 
wet conditions encountered on the river.

After experimenting with a number of solutions (Aqua Socks, Wetsuit booties,
TEVA sandals with neoprene socks) I have settled on the following solution:
neoprene booties with felt soles (ala fly fishing waders).  They give 
good traction on wet rocks, OK traction on dry rocks, and are comfortable
to wear all day in a kayak.  They are available from a number of suppliers -
I got mine from Nortwest River Supplies without the felt soles, then glued
on the felt soles after I found the ribbed rubber soles to not offer enough 
traction on wet and mossy rocks.

Your mileage may vary.

Kurt Bittner       ]"It is not Nature-as-Chaos which threatens us, but the 
kbittner@oracle.com] State's presumption that it has created order."-Gary Snyder
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Kayaking vs. Rowing
Date: 13 Aug 92 11:23:04 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <1992Aug12.161018.17697@anasazi.com> bobm@anasazi.com (Bob Maccione) writes:
>how much water would you have to pump to run one of those whitewater courses?

The flow at the Dickerson course varies from 200 to 600 CFS; it runs
through a 60-foot wide channel which varies in depth from 3 to 9 feet. 
I'm under the impression that the numbers for the Olympic course are
roughly the same.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: Whitewater footwear
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:07:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.215157.24701@smsc.sony.com>, dce@smsc.sony.com (David Elliott) writes:
> I'm looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear?
> 
> A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.  Has anyone
> (anyone who doesn't work at SGI, that is ;-) tried this?  How much
> do these cost?  How well do they grip both wet and dry rocks?  Are
> they comfortable enough to wear on long trips (both long days and
> overnighters)?

Ack!  Expensive, uncomfortable, and not enough of a sole to push
against footpegs.  I suppose Five-Tennies would be a possibility --
they're snug sneakers made by the climbing shoe company 5.10, and
they have a sole made of climbing-shoe rubber.  Dry rocks they grip
fine, wet rocks...a bit better than sneakers, but not great.  They
are about $58-$70 depending on sales.  By way of contrast, climbing
shoes, which strike me as being the ultimate in inappropriate footwear
for rafting or kayaking, are rarely less than $100.  
> 
> Any other suggestions?  It might be useful to put together a
> chart based on weather and river conditions, so include that
> type of information.

What about Tevas (or clones)?  Actual Tevas have soles made by
5.10, my clones (Boulder Sandal Company) are still pretty good.
I wear them over Ragg socks when it's cold (I have the kind that
don't stick something between toes).  

-- 
/\        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they 
  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | seem," was wrong.  Things are usually as they
      \_______________________| seem.  Otherwise, they wouldn't seem that way.
From: smay@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Scott Smay)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:31:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Whitewater footwear
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle

Prijon makes a kayaking shoe which I hear is awfully expensive ($150?).

They're red/yellow and look really funny, and I was way jealous of my companions
who had them on our last portage fest.

cheers,
scott smay
From: bobm@anasazi.com (Bob Maccione)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Whitewater footwear
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:06:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: anasazi.1992Aug19.000614.4946
Organization: Anasazi Inc, Phoenix AZ USA


 (Jon Beck) writes:
 >(David Elliott) writes:
 >> I'm looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear?
 >
 >Nothing I've ever used comes close to Tevas. I use the original model
 >with the thong between 1st and 2nd toes, as they're much more secure
 >on the foot. 

I've used Tevas for years but just got a pair of Alps at REI.  They 
stay on better and seem just as sticky.  The price was about the 
same. 

bob maccione..
anasaz!bobm@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
From: shaw+@CS.CMU.EDU (Mary Shaw)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Whitewater footwear
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:30:47 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University

Best thing I've found is neoprene boots with felt soles.

The felt is the same stuff fishermen use on the soles of
their waders to provide good footing on slippery rocks.

For summer, I used to wear the Patagonia one-toed things
with felt sole and a sock-like top that came up about as
high as an athletic sock.  Unfortunately, I haven't been
able to find them since Tevas and the water slippers came
out.  Now I wear the neoprene/felt boots all year.

Mary Shaw
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: hweingra@.com (Howard Weingram)
Subject: Re: Kayaking vs. Rowing
Reply-To: hweingra@oracle.UUCP (Howard Weingram)
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, CA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:36:05 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <l8eb91INN2ie@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>Did anybody save the Olympic standings?  I was wondering if the
>flatwater K2s and K4s were slower or faster than the rowing sculls.
>You'd think kayaks would have the advantage because a paddle blade
>is almost always in the water, plus kayakers face forward and don't
>have to carry that extra person (the coxswain?).
>
>My next-door neighbor rowed crew at Yale, and says they did 1 Km
>(of course he said 1000 meters) in about 6 minutes.  I saw the K2
>race on TV, which the Germans won by a huge margin, and it seemed
>a lot shorter than 6 minutes.

ROWING RACES ARE 2000M, NOT 1000M. 1000M WOULD BE LESS THAN 3 MINUTES
FOR A GOOD 8, AND LESS THAN 3:30 FOR A 4.

ALSO, THERE ARE ROWING EVENTS WITHOUT COXSWAINS: THE 2-, 4-
AND ALL THE SCULLING EVENTS (1X, 2X, 4X) IN ADDITION TO THE COXED
2+, 4+ AND 8+.

DON'T GET ME WRONG. I HAVE LOTS OF RESPECT FOR THE KAYAKERS WHO
SHARE THE WATER WITH US. AND I THINK A FAST K4 GOES OFF THE LINE
LIKE A BAT OUT OF HELL. 

BUT THE ROWERS HAVE THE ADVANTAGES OF BEING ABLE TO USE THEIR
LEGS AS WELL AS ARMS AND BACK. ALSO, IF YOU'VE EVER SEEN A ROWING
SHELL UP CLOSE, YOU'LL SEE THAT IT HAS OUTRIGGERS ON WHICH THE
OARS ARE MOUNTED. THIS INCREASES THE AVAILABLE LEVERAGE WITHOUT
MAKING IT NECESSARY TO WIDEN THE SHELL ITSELF.

AS FOR FACING BACKWARDS -- YOU ARE THEN PUSHING WITH YOUR
LEGS INSTEAD OF PULLING.


				HAL  

                  ___o                        Howard Weingram
                  \   \                       ORACLE Network Products
                   \/\ |                      415/506-2885 hweingra@oracle.com
 "5,4,3,2,1 ARE YOU \ READY? (F#CK YES!) ROW!"
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Kayaking vs. Rowing
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:37:06 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <1992Aug11.143230.8247@samba.oit.unc.edu> Robert.Holton@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Robert Holton) writes:
>A single scull would probably be faster than a K2 over 1000 m, simply
>because a suller gets to use the huge muscles in his legs rather than
>having to rely solely on arms and shoulders.

While your initial point is true, kayakers do not rely solely on their
arms and shoulders.  Good kayaking stroke technique relies on the paddler's
ability to use their abdominal and leg muscles to propel the boat forward
each time the blade is planted.

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: geraghty@sadye.emba.uvm.edu (Kevin M Geraghty)
Subject: flatwater vs. whitewater: paddle lengths differ?
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:27:45 GMT

I have seen still pictures of olympic flatwater kayakers, and it seems
to my uninitiated eye that their stroke is a bit different from what
whitewater paddlers do (certainly recreational paddlers, but I suspect
slalom paddlers too).  It seems like in the middle of the stroke
during recovery the paddle is held in a horizontal plane...
I wonder if some of this is not due to different paddle lengths.  To a
slalom racer a 210 paddle is long, I think most use shorter paddles.
What do olympic kayakers use?  Sea kayakers, I know, use  longer paddles.

And if competitive flatwater paddlers use longer paddles, why is this
so?  I can see plenty of advantages to a longer 
paddle in the form of extra reach and leverage for sweeps, duffeks,
etc.; but what are the offsetting disadvantages?  Lower stroke rate?
Perhaps your top speed is higher with a longer paddle, but your
acceleration is worse, which would be a big disadvantage on a slalom course.

Or does the difference have to do with hull shape?  Whitewater slalom
and play boats, I know, don't track worth a damn, whereas I speculate
that flatwater racing kayaks track very well.  Perhaps with a shorter
paddle and a shorter stroke you do not impart so much unwanted turning
force to the hull?

Kevin Geraghty



Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: schludermann@sscvx1.ssc.gov
Subject: WANTED infalatable boat accesories
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:56:07 GMT


  I'm seeking accesories for achilles inflatable boat.  Things like launching
wheels,  sun shade, boarding ladder, and other useful stuff.

                                         thanxs
                                            kris