From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Libertarians, guns, etc. 
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 18:34:28 GMT

In article <717815607snx@hrnowl.lonestar.org> anwyn@hrnowl.lonestar.org (anwyn) writes:
>
>Libertarians of all kinds oppose unnecessary violance.

What is necessary violence, and how do you justify one kind of violence over
another?

>I believe that all people should choose not to support violance. 

Are you also saying that people should choose to support violence if they 
want it?

>All persons  should retrain
>the right (and the means) to defend themselves and inocent third parties.

Once you take it upon yourself to defend innocent third parties, aren't you
in effect setting yourself up as some sort of governing body for these people?
Aren't you saying that since they can't defend themselves you'll do it for
them? Isn't this perpetuating something you consider to be a myth, i.e. a 
State? And who decides that you or anyone else who takes this stance gets to
be in charge?

>All violance is committed by individuals. However much violance occurs
>in an organized fashion. Groups of organized persons are often involved.
>Although I do not believe in the existance of the State, I do believe
>that others do, and these beliefs can have social consequences.

What social consequences? Remember, you don't believe Society exists either.

>If one were to examine the recient history, one will find that most
>violance has been committed under the aegis of the various State myths.
>The millions sacrificed in the World Wars come to mind. Of course, the
>Nazi extermination camps can not be forgotten. Consder those deliberately 
>starved and extermined by Stalin. Consider the thousands of Tibetians
>reciently killed. The number of people killed under the authority
>of a (to me, mythical) state makes insignifacant the number that are
>killed by purely individual violance. Therefore, any plan to solve
>the problem of individual violance is unwise, if that plan expands the
>power of the State (or rather the myth of the State if you insist on
>being pedantic about it like Corum.)

But you said above that all violence was committed by individuals. Doesn't
that make the number of people killed by individuals the same as the number
of people killed by the State? In fact, isn't it the same group of people?
And by the way, I never said the State was a myth, you did. I'm being pedantic
about the existence of the State, you're being pedantic about the non-existence
of it. I wish you'd make up your mind which side of the fence you're going
to sit on.

Also, if all violence is committed by individuals, how can it be unwise to
try and solve the problem of individual violence? According to your logic,
it's the only kind of violence.

>I do not believe that State schools should take it upon themselves to
>teach answers to fundamental moral questions. These questions should be
>left to individuals. In fact, I believe all public schools should be sold
>to private persons and private organizations. Education is too important
>to be left to government. (If you had an important package to send it 
>California, would you entrust it to U.S. Snail of Fed EX it?)

But what if the only private organizations that can afford to buy the
schools are Xtian Fundy organizations? Are you going to send your children
there and risk them being taught that you're a sinner who should be burned
at the stake? Education is too important to be left *entirely* to any
school system, state run or private. Education starts with you, in the
home. Even Fed Ex can drop a fragile package or even lose one. I will agree,
however, that moral issues are better left to the parent in most cases. There
are still alot of people whose morals I will question, and some of them are
teachers, and some of them are parents. Schools should give a base of examples
for the children. A child cannot easily differentiate between moral and
immoral, but sometimes neither can a parent. The drunk who beats his wife
for example. There must be a balance.

Bb,

Corun


-- 
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    Corun MacAnndra    |
  Dark Horde by birth  |      Forewarned is a Hindu god.
    Moritu by choice   |