HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jbremer@ruf.rice.edu (John Frederick Bremer)
Subject: Re: Summer Sanders Medals
Organization: Rice University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 20:54:18 GMT

In article <2AA81EF1.15200@news.service.uci.edu>, rchun@banting.bio.uci.edu (Rene Chun) writes:
|> If my memory serves me correctly, Sanders won her gold in the 200m
|> butterfly, silver in 200m IM and bronze in the 400m IM.  Yet, I read
|> that she won 4 medals.  Did I get the events mixed up?
|> 
|> 
No you didn't.  She also won a gold for the 400 Medley Relay in which she swam the Butterfly leg in the prelims.  All Prelim swimmers get the same medal as
won by the team that swims during the finals.  By the way does anyone know the time with which Lea Loveless swam leading off the 400 M.R.  It was an American Record but I missed the beginning of the race and haven't seen her time posted anywhere.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner)
Subject: Re: Physics of Drafting
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 13:40:19 GMT

A few years ago, our local gang of swimmers found ourselves in a 25 yard
pool with eleven (yes, 11) swimmers in one lane.  All we could do was sets
of 50yds repeats.  The last set was 10x50 on :35.  Believe me, everyone
except the leader felt as if he were being sucked along (we had to go only
3 seconds apart).  If you'd ever done intervals while circle swimming, you
know that there is a BIG difference between leading and drafting.  The leader
not only has to fight still water, but he runs into the water being dragged
towards him by swimmers going in the opposite direction.
From: scottd@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Scott Diamond)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Physics of Drafting
Keywords: drafting physics
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:41:33 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

Hello Physics-Swimmers,

I've read all the discusion about drafting off of other swimmers, but I 
don't really understand how it is possible. I was hoping some other net
physics types could explain it to me. 

Drafting off a car, motorcycle, bike or runner is  pretty clear to me.
As you push off the ground, and move forward, you drag some air along.
The best place to sit, and get dragged along  yourself, is directly in
back of someone, or even better in back of several someones.

For swimming though, it seems  different.  In  swimming, the medium of
your propulsion is the  water (unlike running, cycling, etc  where the
medium of propulsion  is  not  the air but  the ground).  As  you move
forward in  the water, physics says  there must be a net   movement of
water backwards, as viewed by a  stationary observer (for every action
there  is an equal and  opposite reaction).  In  view of this physical
principle, I would think the last place you would want to be is in the
wake of the swimmer in front of  you.  Swimming  in the wake,  I would
expect to be pushed backwards and actually have to swim harder.

I would  think that if you  want to 'draft'  another swimmer  then the
place to be would be just behind  them and  off  to the either side so
that you could ride  on their bow  wave, much like dolphins riding the
bow  wave  of a  boat  (you  never  see  dolphins drafting  behind the
propellor).

Ok so whats the scoop, I saw the olympics where  that australian 'body
surfed' off of Biodi's bow wave to win,  but I get the impression that
most people would like to draft in  the wake.   Can you get a draft in
the wake and if so why?



               Scott Diamond
   \  	 /       Tektronix, Electronics Research Laboratory
     / \         scott.k.diamond@tek.com
    < s >        wk phone: (503) 627-6304
     \ /         hm phone: (503) 643-6779
   /     \
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: shine@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (stephen.c.shine)
Subject: Re: Physics of Drafting
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:28:39 GMT

In article kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner) writes:
>A few years ago, our local gang of swimmers found ourselves in a 25 yard
>pool with eleven (yes, 11) swimmers in one lane.  All we could do was sets
>of 50yds repeats.  The last set was 10x50 on :35.  Believe me, everyone
>except the leader felt as if he were being sucked along (we had to go only
>3 seconds apart).  If you'd ever done intervals while circle swimming, you
>know that there is a BIG difference between leading and drafting.  The leader
>not only has to fight still water, but he runs into the water being dragged
>towards him by swimmers going in the opposite direction.

I remember that one.  Eric O'Brien aptly called it a "salmon swim".  As 
I recall, we had to rotate more than one leader for that interval as
it was virtually impossible for any one person to fight the waves
(we had some LARGE swimmers there) that day.  Can you say "white caps"?
We were in a middle lane, and the folks in the outside lanes were 
complaining about the current and waves we were generating.  :-)

All in all, I've had more fun getting a root canal.
-- 
Steve Shine
AT&T Bell Labs    (908)949-8517
att!hoqub!shine   att!cbnewsh!shine
My opinions, not my employers, not my fault, blah, blah, blah.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: ross@emf780.den.mmc.com (Perry R. Ross)
Subject: Re: Covert Bailey: Kook or Quack?
Organization: Martin Marietta, Denver
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 08:03:43 GMT

In article <laf81gINNboc@pollux.usc.edu> bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur) writes:
>In article <1206@tekgen.bv.tek.com> brucec@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Bruce Cheney) writes:
>
>>Have any of you read Covert Bailey's Fit or Fat
>>books?  As a swimming advocate, these books
>>really hack me off.

Amen.  He simply doesn't know anything about swimming, and probably feels
like the book is selling just fine, why go to the trouble of actually
learning about it.  In fact, he seems to get quite a chuckle over all
the nasty letters he gets from swimmers.  In his defense, he probably
feels the way he does because so many people swim improperly.  Running
(for example) almost can't help but be good exercise, the only risk to
doing it improperly is injury.  Swimming, on the other hand, has much less
risk of injury, but a greater risk of not being good exercise (like if you
don't kick properly).  Of course, the space in his book devoted to
swim-bashing could have been used to tell people how to do it properly.

>
>He's statement about the whales is quite dumb.

This statement was so silly, it really needs to be shared.  He said
that swimmers don't lose fat because their bodies adapt to the heat
loss in water by retaining fat for its insulative properties, and he
supported this by the fact that marine mammals tend to have large fat layers.
My objections to this are:
	1. Marine mammals live in the ocean, some diving to depths
	   of 5000 feet or more, some going for months without eating, and
	   many living in or migrating to the Arctic.  I go to an
	   indoor pool heated to 85F for an hour or so.
	2. Even if it were true, the fat that would be retained would
	   be subcutaneous fat, and swimming would still get rid of
	   the intramuscular fat (which after all is the focus of the book).
	3. The idea that just because one species has made a particular
	   adaptation to its environment doesn't mean all species will.
	   If I lived in a sheep barn, would I grow wool?

The sad part is, it is otherwise a pretty good book.  It's refreshing
to hear someone just say, get out there, exercise, eat less fat.
There is so much dietary quackery going on these days.

Oh well.  I feel better now.
-- 
-- Perry R. Ross (303)977-4371 | Bill Gates is to Computer Science what   --
-- Martin Marietta, Denver     | Madonna is to Music.                     --
-- ross@emf780.den.mmc.com     |                                          --
From: peters@convex.com (James Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: results usms national long course
Keywords: masters seattle long
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:32:34 GMT
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

here is an abbreviated summary of results from the recent us masters
long course championship in seattle. the people i was interested in are
part of the north texas lmsc. 

chrissy maccurdy, Swim With Aerobic Masters:
	first women's 40-44 200 im 2:47
	third women's 40-44 100 brst 1:24
	second women's 40-44 100 fly 1:13

julie malcolm, Swim With Aerobic Masters:
	first women's 25-29 50 brst
	third women's 25-29 100 brst 1:24.3
	third women's 25-29 200 brst

robert hudek, Baylor Lonestar
	second men's 30-34 400 im

dave estes, Swim With Aerobic Masters and/or Baylor Lonestar ;)
	second men's 30-34 100 fly

per chrissy maccurdy the weather and facilities  were outstanding. there
was a bit of controversy regarding dave estes which resulted in two relay 
teams getting dq'ed.  the only minus to the event was the 12 hour days,
warmup at 6:30 am and then swim at 8 pm.

errors and omissions are strictly my own.

regards,
james, peters@convex.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: wfialkov@cs1.uct.ac.za (WHB FIALKOV)
Subject: Lifesaving,Swimming
Keywords: Competitive->social
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:22:03 GMT

To any-one out there who is interested in life-saving(competitive-social)
or any other aquatic sport.
Could you please e-mail me the address of any Surf Lifesaving Club or 
Aquatic Club in the area as well as a short description of the standard of 
competition there..
I'm rather interested in "talking" to any other person interested in the 
afore-mentioned topics...Maybe we could swap ideas ??
Thanx Warren

e-mail address : WFIALKOV@cs1.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Paddles, Pull-bouys, Fins and Gloves
From: rule@kenyon.edu
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:40:59 -0500
Organization: Kenyon College

In article <18ip20INNg29@agate.berkeley.edu>, sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield) writes:
> I think the discussion on this thread illuminates an issue
> that underlies this group. Some people are training for speed
> and racing and others are training for conditioning. Also,
> some training methods that are appropriate for 18-year-olds
> are inappropriate for 50-year-olds. All of that is fine,
> there's plenty of room for diversity, but it means that
> people are preaching at each other without understanding
> these different circumstances and different needs. For
> instance, I would never use a pull buoy because I am
> 45 and a pull buoy just makes it easier for me to work
> out. But since my aim is conditioning, I don't want to make
> it easier. If I were 20, I certainly would work out with a
> pull buoy (and I did when I was 20). Whether to use fins
> or paddles is also related to your age, condition, and objectives.
> I see people using these devices whom I am sure are not benefitting
> from them; that doesn't mean that some other people won't. I
> sometimes kick without a kickboard, but usually only when I
> am in very good condition. Mostly I kick with a kickboard so
> I can finish that part of my workout. If I were still competing
> in Master's swimming, I'd do more sprints on short intervals.
> Since I'm not, I try to repeat longer distances.
> 
> The important point is to understand your objectives and
> your limitations and to design a workout program that
> maximizes your objectives without violating your limitations.
> 
> Steve Goldfield


Sorry Steve, I'm just figuring out this system...

	All three tools for swimming can be used to it's maximum potential, and
will help you work on getting into shape as well as increasing your
cardio-vascular endurance (OOOOOO BIG WORDS!)

	Pull bouys are not usefull if you have an injury like I tend to have in
my shoulder.  However, if used correctly, it can HELP an injury by stretching
out the muscles and getting the muscles used to moving in a swimmer's rotation.

	Kickboards and Zoomers are the best combo to have, especially near
taper. With zoomers, you get the feel of race pace swimming.  A kickboards
function is obvious: to isolate the legs for workout purposes only.  

	You see, with each tool that you use, you use them for a specific
purpose.  The pull bouy and kickboard isolates one part of the body, while the
zoomers are used mainly to help you get the feel of how race pace swimming
feels like.  Whoever said that these tools aren't necessary probably doesn't
swim much or is not very fast with his swimming or he could be using the tools
in a wrong manner.  Who knows?

         Just to let you know on where I stand on swimming....

	Well I'm just a newbie on this list and the name's John.  I swim on the
DIV III ranks with Kenyon College.  I have been swimming for close to 13 years
now competitively, and I hope to continue after college in the masters program.
	
	John
From: rule@kenyon.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Physics of Drafting
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:02:29 GMT
Organization: Kenyon College

In article <1992Sep14.134019.1137@walter.bellcore.com>, kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner) writes:
> A few years ago, our local gang of swimmers found ourselves in a 25 yard
> pool with eleven (yes, 11) swimmers in one lane.  All we could do was sets
> of 50yds repeats.  The last set was 10x50 on :35.  Believe me, everyone
> except the leader felt as if he were being sucked along (we had to go only
> 3 seconds apart).  If you'd ever done intervals while circle swimming, you
> know that there is a BIG difference between leading and drafting.  The leader
> not only has to fight still water, but he runs into the water being dragged
> towards him by swimmers going in the opposite direction.

yeah no kidding we did that set last year.  ALso we do what's called
breakthrough swims, like 10 x 100's on the 4:00 timed.  What we do to decrease
the possibility of drafting is to go two to a lane 15 seconds apart.  You
definitely feel the draft, especially in long distances.  If you read the
latest issue of Swimming World, you would also see that the Chinese or Soviets
did the same thing in one of the relays. I'm not too sure which though
	John
From: brucec@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Bruce Cheney)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Aquajogging - Bogus or Legit ??
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:21:02 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

I am a dedicated Master's swimmer, triathlete, and
runner, just to give you my perspective. I currently
have an eye injury which isn't serious, but means I
don't want to get my eyes wet. I still wanted to
get in the water, so at first I thought I would just
kick.  But then I thought: "Why not TRY Aquajogging?"

I've always sneered (privately) at Aquajoggers. Publicly,
I've tried to gently get them to swim with the Master's
team.  I figure you can't legitimately criticize something
if you haven't tried it, so I strapped on a belt, jumped in,
and started jogging.  Here's my impression:

I could not get my heart rate up to my training zone. I feel
like I get a good workout at 170 or so beats/min.  The best
I could do with Aquajogging was 120 no matter how much I
tried.

My legs COULD feel the workout. I haven't been running lately so
I'm not in the best running shape, but I did feel that I was
exercising my legs some.

I felt more 'waterlogged' than I do swimming. Particularly my hands
and fingers were very wrinkly.

Conclusion:  It's OK for a remedial exercise. Bogus - NOT, but intense - NOT
too. I will probably try it again for variety, but I won't become
an Aquajogger fanatic.  You might like to try it for grins.

Bruce Cheney
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica)
Subject: Re: Open water swimming - strategy
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 22:06:15 GMT

In article <lafjmsINN7a@male.EBay.Sun.COM> timc@sunpool.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>
>In article 24074@leland.Stanford.EDU, tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica) writes:
>>
>>I always thought that if I could get a partner about my speed we could take turns drafting (run a paceline) and kick some ***. But then, we'd both want to spriunt the finish.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>
>I always thought it would be great to have an open water swim with teams
>and actually ENCOURAGE drafting.  The race would be something like:
>
>	Distance:	2 miles
>	Team:		Each team consists of 4 swimmers.
>			(You could have different divisions
>			 like mens, womens, mixed, family, etc.)
>	Goal:		Get all 4 swimmers across the finish line.
>			(So 1st place goes to the 1st team with ALL 4
>			 swimmers across the line.  2nd goes to the 
>			 2nd fastest team, etc.)
>

TIM, THIS IS A GREAT IDEA! I love it. A swimming TTT!

I wonder if we could get one of these teams to sponser one next year over
at Lake De Valle. All you netters are of course invited to send teams. I'm
gonna talk to Ross tommorrow (the main masters coach here) - course he'll
probalby say "OK tom, go set it up". 

Yeah, set that up or do the thesis. Aw, the hell with the thesis. It got boring
anyway.

tom

-- 
Porpise: run, bike, swim, make cookies


"long distance runner, what you holding out for?"
From: sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Paddles, Pull-bouys, Fins and Gloves
Date: 10 Sep 1992 21:14:21 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: hera.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep9.224059.86@kenyon.edu> rule@kenyon.edu writes:
#>In article <18ip20INNg29@agate.berkeley.edu>, sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield) writes:
#>> I think the discussion on this thread illuminates an issue
#>> that underlies this group. Some people are training for speed
#>> and racing and others are training for conditioning. Also,
#>> some training methods that are appropriate for 18-year-olds
#>> are inappropriate for 50-year-olds. All of that is fine,
#>
#>	Pull bouys are not usefull if you have an injury like I tend to have in
#>my shoulder.  However, if used correctly, it can HELP an injury by stretching
#>out the muscles and getting the muscles used to moving in a swimmer's rotation.

It appears that you missed my point, which was actually first
made by Doc Counsilman, who is most people's first authority on
the science of swimming and training for swimming.

Doc began studying the physiology of older swimmers when he
himself was swimming Master's. He found that after the age of
30, the circulation to the legs had decreased to the point
that it was actually easier to pull with a pull buoy than
to swim with a slight kick or to drag the legs. He, therefore,
concluded that it was pointless to use a pull buoy if you
are over 30 or so.

Steve
From: luebke5317@iscsvax.uni.edu (Phil Luebke)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Various discussions on swimming/group
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:00:21 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

HELLO FELLOW SWIMMERS!

I have finally been able to access this group!  My computer skills grew a
little rusty over the summer, which is probably one reason I couldn't find the
group in NEWS.  Anyway, my name is Phil, and I would like to think that I am
responsible for the formation of this group this spring, although I couldn't
have done it without all you supporters, and of course, the VAX manager at my
school, who ran the voting.

I hope this group is serving it's purpose well.  I was a little perturbed
(sp.?) to see some flaming going on, but I guess that goes with the territory. 
Previous to the existence of this group, I was informed that Tom Jager might be
making an appearance in this group.  I hope I haven't missed that. 
Unfortunately, I have lost the address to the person who told me, so I can't
follow up on that promise.

MY POSTS:

1) When I got "swimmer's shoulder," I tried to find as many articles on it as I
could.  While I did find a number of them, the most recent were from the early
80s.  Does anyone know if there have been any recent developments in the
treatment of this horrible hex?  Any recent magazine/journal articles?

2) A note about the various threads concerning hand paddles, pull bouys, and
their contributions to injuries.  Although I am not a doctor (I don't even play
one on TV), the concensus of the various articles on "swimmer's shoulder"
seemed to be that they do more harm than good.  I think, however, that it
pertains only to those who are already having problems.  For the healthy
swimmer, there should be no problem in using pull bouys in their daily workout.
Talking to various coaches and trainers and such has led me to believe that
hand paddles are a major predicator (right word?) to shoulder injury.  They are
OK for occasional use to correct stroke errors, but should not be relied upon
heavily for workouts.

3) A question pertaining to "Swimming World" : 
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel unsatisfied when they get done with
each issue?  Granted, there's not a WHOLE lot you can write about swimming, but
for the subscription price, I want more.

Well, that's all from me for now.  I think I got carpal tunnel from using this
wonderful creation too much this spring.  I don't want to be out this season
with such an injury.  That wouldn't be good.
                                                        SHUT UP PHIL!
OK
                                                Later,
                                                        Phil
-- 
* * *
* Phillip Christiaan Luebke`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'a.k.a. luebke5317@iscsvax.uni.edu
*             "Are you sure that's how you spell your middle name?"            *
                                             -- IDOT driver's license employee *
                                                                           * * *
From: rule@kenyon.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: RE something to chew on
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:57:45 GMT
Organization: Kenyon College

I have been asked for more details on my post "Something to chew on" 

	The media puts so much pressure on swimmers during the olympics that it
almost screws some people up!  Poor anita!  After she lost in the 100 brest,
the announcer was highly dissapointed and started making rather bad comments
about her.  The comebacks being made are just something to write I guess.  It
also raises the question about Mark Spitz's attempt at a comeback at the 100
fly.  Why exactly did he do that?  Also, what are the future plans for people
like Biondi and Jager?  Will they be back in 96?
	Yeh I swam against Nelson in the Prep School Eastern championships my
Junior year.  I had to swim him in the 50 free and he was about a half a lap
ahead of me, as well as the whole field, after it was all over.  I'm not quite
sure what he did , but I went a lousy 22.9 in that race.  So yeah, he blew my
socks off.  In the 100 breast that same year, he broke the Prep school record
in that event, and no one was even near him during the whole race.
	John
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen)
Subject: Re: Physics of Drafting
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 20:03:41 GMT

stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) writes:

>I don't have any experience, though, whether it is any better to
>ride someone's bow wave than to draft directly behind them.

	From my experience I liked to be directly behind someone if
my intention was to draft.  However this could have been because if
you moved into 
their bow wave, you would probably be expected to pass whereas if you
stayed right behind them you could remain there and if the person complained
you could say you "just couldn't get by".  It works, trust me :-) .
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Something to chew on
From: rule@kenyon.edu
Date: 12 Sep 92 23:57:10 -0500
Organization: Kenyon College

O.k since no one is posting...
	What do you think about these comebacks that are being made?  Pablo
seems to have finished his, but what about the fates of Jager and Biondi?
	What about these newcomers Anita Nall (Poor girl) and Nelson Dieble
(Whom I have swam against and who be the socks off me)?
	What's the outlook as the olympics head for Atlanta?
	Cmon let's hear something!
		John