HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kcr@rushforth.Eng.Sun.COM (Kevin Rushforth)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: "Buffalo" is SF? /Hugo nominated/ SF?!
Date: 30 Jul 1992 07:05:46 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: rushforth

dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein) writes:
>   Funny.  If you liked "Press Ann" then our ESF votes (*vote* people!)
>   might have been the exact reverse of each other.  I found the above
>   and "In the Late Cretaceous" very forgattable, though Connie's story
>   was at least amusing for a while.

Actually, I didn't like "Press Ann" very well, either.  It was a fairly
clever idea very poorly executed.  Along with "Buffalo" and "Dog's
Life" it rounds out the list of three stories that I ranked below "No
Award".  In retrospect, I was being generous in keeping that list down
to three.  This was a fairly weak collection of short stories.  Even
"In the Late Cretaceous", which I consider to be the best of the lot,
is not up to the high standards set by winners from years past.

>   What puzzles me is why would you prefer "In the Late Cretaceous" to
>   "Dog's Life"; neither was very demanding, but "Dog's Life" at least
>   had a character I cared for, and sustained a momentum all the way
>   to the end.

It's hard to put my finger on it, but one reason that I like "In the
Late Cretaceous" better than "Dog's Life" is that Connie Willis is a
better writer than Martha Soukup -- especially when it comes to writing
interesting, believable dialogue.  I found the dialogue in "Dog's Life"
to be flat, especially when compared to that in "In the Late
Cretaceous".

Another reason is that I found "Dog's Life" somewhat derivative;
Orwell's _Animal Farm_ comes to mind, although it's more than that.
"Dog's Life" is essentially a retelling of the age-old story where two
people (often lovers) set out to achieve a common dream (or one partner
sacrifices everything to support the other in the pursuit of their
dream), and one partner "makes it big" leaving the other partner behind,
either literally or figuratively.  If told well, this can be a good
story.  I just don't think Martha told it all that well.

"In the Late Cretaceous", on the other hand, was fresh and
entertaining.  True, Ms. Willis did portray her characters with broad
strokes -- almost as caricatures -- but it worked (for me at least).
It was a funny look at office politics with a serious edge to it.  It
also explored how different people react to adversity or threats to the
status quo.  Even though the situations were patently absurd, I
sympathized with the characters.

-- 
Kevin C. Rushforth                 | "If winning is not important,
Sun Microsystems                   |  then commander, why keep score?"
                                   |              - Lt. Worf
INET: kcr@Eng.Sun.COM              |
UUCP: <the-backbone>!sun!eng!kcr   |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: yarvin@highlite.uucp (Curtis Yarvin)
Subject: Re: BOOKS BY DAVID EDDINGS
Organization: Gotham Communications Research
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 00:08:13 GMT

In article <5105@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.214606.272@highlite.uucp> yarvin@highlite.uucp  
>(Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>> 
>> Before everyone smirks, I should point out that Eddings does do
>> characters better (IMHO) than many of the "greats" of old-time sf.
>> Can you honestly call Eddings' characters weaker than Tolkien's?
>> E.E. "Doc" Smith's?  Asimov's?  Even (heresy) Heinlein's?
>
>Yes.  No. Probably. Yes.

A laconic response; but (as would have been so anyway) I'm not convinced.

I'm puzzled most by your defense of Tolkien; he has his merits, but few
would place characterization among them.  Tolkien's characters have few
human drives; where he actually tries to humanize them (the hobbits,
Boromir), the result is plastic and unreal, or simply unconvincing.  For
the most part they're thin and melodramatic, so cardboard as to inflate
the term.  Would you really call Aragorn, Gandalf, Theoden, Saruman, even
Legolas and Gimli, credible and well-filled characters?

I've always viewed Tolkien's great talent as a natural style which turned
weak characters and simple worlds into advantages: few have surpassed him
at the art of high fantasy.  His imitators - like Eddings - have tried to
shift the genre toward low fantasy, an art which demands characterization
and invention.  They're better at it than Tolkien, but lack the skills
to really succeed; the result is, of course, tripe.  But if Tolkien
putted the same hole, his score'd be even more intestinal.

And Heinlein?  I'm not the first to notice that Heinlein drew
from a three-bit character palette, and I wouldn't be the first
to call his female characters "men with tits."  This fight has
been fought already, and there's no reason to refight it.  Suffice
it to say that I'm right and you're not.

The impulse to loathe the present and deify the past is often
irresistible, especially among the chronologically disadvantaged;
but that's no reason not to resist it.

c
"to close with a faux Quayleism..."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: K42@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Monika Best)
Subject: Re: Merlin Backwards (was Re: My view of the ESF stories ..)
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 11:13:32 CET

In article <1992Jul31.062031.21173@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
>
>In article <1992Jul30.214934.27426@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> aaron@space.ualberta.
>>...
>>Next was "Winter Solstice".  I don't know if there's precedent in Arthurian
>>mythos for Merlin's living backwards.
>
>I am fairly sure that there is a strong precedent for Merlin living
>backwards, but I can't remember where I got it from. (...)

Probably from T.H. White's _The Once and Future King_. At least, that's
where I've seen this idea for the first time.
I found _Winter Solstice_ fascinating -- I had never before thought
about what it must really mean to Merlin to live backwards, and how
difficult (maybe impossible) it would be for him to have meaningful
relationships (or even conversation!) with anybody.

-- Moni
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: List of voters in ESF award so far
Organization: Video 7 + G2 = Headland Technology
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:35:40 GMT

I just sent in my vote.

I mentioned on the writers mailing list that some of these would really
gotten 'the treatment' if someone on the list had sent them in.

In roughly worst-to-best order:

(Possible spoilers for some of these stories)

"Press Ann" was just too silly for me.

My reaction to "Buffalo" was "For crying out loud, John, cut the silly
obtrusive reminders every paragraph that none of this really happened
and let us suspend our disbelief."

"Dog's Life" was a "talking animals" fantasy, without the
pseudo-explanation of Daffyd ab Hughes' story of last year.
Not my kind of story, but well written.

"In the Late Cretaceous" was a mainstream Academic Tenure Wars story.
Nice sense of humor. There didn't seem to be much point, though.

"Winter Solstice" was a Merlin & Arthur fantasy, playing some
changes on the Merlin as the man living backwards in time theme
by leaving him some memories of the 20'th century.

"One Perfect Morning, With Jackals" was a nicely done look inside
the head of a back-to-nature type.  I couldn't feel any sympathy
for him, but the world was quite interesting. (I haven't read any
of Resnick's Kirinyaga stories, so there could have been some
background that Resnick expected me to know about.)

My instant reaction to "A Walk in the Sun" was shock, horror, rage,
and depression.  Dan'l and I started collaborating on a short story
a couple of years ago, which had as one of its main gimmicks the
protagonist's circumnaviation of the moon to keep his solar cells lit.
(In our case, the protagonist was a robot.)  The Landis story has
probably rendered our story unpublishable.  (If it wasn't already, of
course :-) but in my very biased opinion it's better than a lot of
the stuff that appears in major SF magazines.)

Other than that, I thought "A Walk.." was a great story, and the only
*REAL* SF on the ballot.  My only quibble would be why a lunar mission
not intending to land in a world in which there was no lunar presence
would carry such a nifty suit.

My reaction to the whole list is a sad suspicion that SF is taking
off in a direction that I have no interest in following.
-- 
Mike Van Pelt                     "Something is happening here,
Headland Technology/Video 7        What it is ain't exactly clear..."
sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp                 -- Pons & Fleischmann
mvp@hsv3.lsil.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kaufman@eecs.nwu.edu (Michael L. Kaufman)
Subject: A few questions about Mike Resnick's Kyrinyaga stories
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:35:35 GMT

I have read 4 of Mike Resnick's Kyrinyaga stories. The first one, the one about
the hunter, the one about the young girl, and the one unhappy young men. (Sorry,
I can't remember all the titles offhand.) Has he written any others yet? Does 
anyone know when the book containing all of them is supposed to be published? 
Any information will be appreciated.

By the way, if you haven't read these stories yet, I highly recomended them.


Michael


-- 
Michael Kaufman | I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on
 kaufman        | fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in
  @eecs.nwu.edu | the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be
                | lost in time - like tears in rain. Time to die.     Roy Batty 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: tedk@jpl.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Ted Ko)
Subject: Re: Asprin's "Myth" books
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 14:10:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.060158.20963@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>, qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes

|
|> Worth reading? Well, the first couple of books are certainly very funny,
|> although they do fall down a bit after that. Both Discworld and Myth are
|> humorous fantasy with caricatures of familiar concepts, but the ways they
|> go about it are rather different. Discworld is situated in a fantasyverse
|> while Myth has a multiverse as its backdrop.
|> 
|> I'd recommend getting the first couple of books (Another Fine Myth, Myth
|> Conceptions, Myth Directions and perhaps Hit or Myth) and then judge for
|> yourself.

One thing to note however is that Asprin goes on to develop his characters
as the series progresses.  Pratchett doesn't have any consistent characters to work on while Asprin has a core group.   The main character, Skeeve, grows
up a heck of a lot along the way, and Asprin does a damn good job of keeping
the relationships from getting stale.  Because of this, I think it's worth
reading all of them just to see how their lives change and how Skeeve takes
care of his personal problems.
Also,  starting with Myth Inc Link, Asprin starts writing from the point of view of the other character which is some of the funniest stuff in the whole series.

The main thing that annoys me is that he's taking so long to put out the next
book!

|> 
|> Asprin has claimed, I think, that the first Myth book is one of the first
|> light/caricature fantasy. Does anybody know if that is correct?

When was Spell for Chameleon published?  I though that Piers Anthony was one
of the pioneers in the humor fantasy area...

-- 
<--The-Dark-Elf-<<<

E-Mail: ted@athena.mit.edu
	tedk@ctt.bellcore.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mike@maths.tcd.ie (Mike Rogers)
Subject: Re: SUMMARY: Books From Alien Perspective.
Organization: none
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:39:47 GMT

In article <cicero.1aod@hotcity.COM>, cicero@hotcity.COM (Andreas Locicero) wrote:
>          A couple of weeks ago I posted an inquiry about the titles of
>          books written from an alien perspective.  Here is a summary of
>          the results:

Two very good ones, both by Philip Mann, are

The Eye of the Queen 
and
Wulfsyarn.

-- 
Mike Rogers,Box 6,Regent Hse,##EveryoneHasTheRightToFreedomOfOpinionAndExpressio
TCD,EIRE. <mike@maths.tcd.ie>##nThisRightIncludesFreedomToHoldOpinionsWithoutInt
###############################erferenceAndToSeekReceiveAndImpartInformationAndI
deasThroughAnyMediaAndRegardlessOfFrontiers...#10 UN Declaration of Human Rights
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: That Perfect Book...
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 12:29:59 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Distribution: na
Originator: nickh@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <36481@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> asm@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Amin Meghani) writes:

    I thought I was the only nut in the country riffling through
   the bookstore shelves to get that PERFECT-looking book.
     Hey, maybe we should get together and form a club or something.
   How about SFFPB (SF fans for perfect binding)?

Better not call it that, since "perfect binding" is an industry term
for "rather lousy binding actually".

I kid you not.

Nick
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ericg@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (E. Chris Garrison)
Subject: Re: BOOKS BY DAVID EDDINGS
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 17:51:20 GMT

In article <10726446.78.711694821@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au> 10726446@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (LAU WAI KUEN) writes:
>In article <920720153956.4340081f@bigvax.alfred.edu> BANKERR@BIGVAX.ALFRED.EDU writes:
>>From: BANKERR@BIGVAX.ALFRED.EDU
>>Subject: BOOKS BY DAVID EDDINGS
>>Date: 20 Jul 92 19:39:56 GMT
>
>
>
>    Very good.  I find that sums up all the books Mr Eddings has written 
>extremely well.  Do you want to comment on the crap he vomits up too?
>
>Halcyon

Actually, I found David Eddings' works to be entertaining and
interesting, even if they are not masterworks of fiction.  I was
particularly fond of the characters and cultures he created in
the _Belgariad_ and the _Mallorean_.  

I think Mr. Eddings is a better craftsman of fantasy than many of 
the current authors of the genre, and viewed his series as light
fantasy.  

I realize that you are free to express your opinions, no matter
how negative, "Halycon", but please don't squelch other peoples'
opinions, either. 

Eric



-- 
------
E. Chris Garrison
Technical Support
ericg@ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: "Understand" by Ted Chiang
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 23:30:19 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Maryland, College Park
Originator: clin@coke.eng.umd.edu


In article <1992Jul27.192247.2124@clarinet.com>, brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.101158.20390@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
>>Now, why did I keep thinking of small mice running maces and
>>flowers floating on the water while reading this story?
>
>Yeah, I got that at first, too, however he took to the story in quite a
>different direction after those initial similarities.   Their endings
>are vastly different.

   My guess is that this was intentional.  At least, the initial parts
of it.  The challenge being how to write it differently enough
so people don't say it's just like Flowers.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:04:48 -0400 
From: Bill Thomas <bt16+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Book Club

>- If you receive a book you don't want, just return it in the same
>(resealed) package with "RETURN TO SENDER" on it. You won't be charged
>for the book.

This also seems to work with CDs. I've returned a couple to Columbia
House this way recently, and apparently there's no problem. I noticed
that the words "Return Postage Guaranteed" are under the "stamp" on the
CD, which clued me in.

By the way, some writers have pointed out that the SF Book Club will
allow you to move to a positive-response system, in which you only have
to respond if you want a book. I'd love to convert my Quality Paperback
membership to this kind of system. Anyone know if QPB works this way?
From: mab@wdl39.wdl.loral.com (Mark A Biggar)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Dealing with Jump shock (Re: The Moat around God's Eye)
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:28:19 GMT
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs

In article <1992Jul23.053044.14491@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu> rob@watney.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>In article <104770002@otter.hpl.hp.com> tgg@otter.hpl.hp.com (Tom Gardner)
>writes: 
>>Right. Obvious isn't it. At least to any competent engineer. But God got it
>>wrong in the human eye. This is a superb way of demonstrating either the
>>non-existence of God or that God is fundamentally incompetant. Take your choice.
>It's strange feeling for an atheist to be defending God, but this doesn't
>follow.  In order to judge competence, you have to know both the goal and the
>constraints on the methods.

Have you ever look at a CCD array, the metal wiring layer in on top of the 
active photosencer devices.

--
MArk Biggar
mab@wdl1.wdl.lroal.com
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Author Polls -- Fred Pohl
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:11:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Thomas Hyer):
>Welcome to the author polls.  This week's author is Fred Pohl.

With Pohl, more than with most authors, it seems worth stating
explicitly that collaborations count.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   Aphorism is better than none.
From: ELKOWITZ@LENORE.TCH.HARVARD.EDU (Allan Elkowitz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: RE: SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #380
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:50:21 GMT

> Date: 27 Jul 92 01:24:11 GMT
> From: stevena@cory.berkeley.edu (Steven Alexander)
> Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
> Subject: "slow glass": story reference sought

> The story I'm looking for concerns "slow glass" which transmits light
> orders of magnitude more slowly than ordinary glass (but light emerges at
> the ordinary rate).  Thus, it could be placed in a scenic locale for a
> while, then rented out as a pseudo scenic window, providing realistic, or
> real, views.  This glass, or access to the scenic places, comes to be sold
> for dear prices to the poor, who at first got to enjoy their cramped flats
> more than before the discovery or invention of slow glass.

These are a series of short stories written by Bob Shaw.  They have appeared
individually and in collections, but I cannot recall any names since I am
at work and the books are at home.  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: The Moat around God's Eye
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 12:34:26 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Jul18.233515.28827@oracle.us.oracle.com> <691@tdat.teradata.COM>
	<1992Jul22.080741.12412@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Originator: nickh@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <1992Jul22.080741.12412@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu> rob@watney.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:

   In article <691@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
   writes: 
   >The point is that it is the *crashes* that *make* it a bad individual
   >strategy.  K-strategy species do quite well ate establishing stable
   >population sizes.

   [...]

   Similarly, while their high fecundity is clearly not good for the Moties,
   there is no evolutionary path out of it, as changing the fecundity would
   effectively require a complete overhaul.  So they're stuck.

But could they have evolved with such high fecundity, in competition
with other species with lower fecundity? When proto-Moties hit the
crash at the end of a cycle, the naked mole-rats who've been hanging
out in caves with low fecundity suddenly pop onto the scene, eat all
the baby Moties, and take over.

Nick

(PS: IMO, this belongs on r.a.sf.science)
From: beede@sctc.com (Mike Beede)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Errors in Covers (was Re: Hyperion covers)
Date: 26 Jul 92 17:22:49 GMT
Organization: SCTC

bt16+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bill Thomas) writes:

>Chuq Von Rospach writes:

>>According to the person who ordered that cover from Whelan (Tappan
>>King), that's not an error. It's a marketing decision, because darker
>>skin colors on covers don't sell as well, and have trouble getting into
>>bookstores in certain parts of the country. They lightened the skin
>>tone on purpose.

>And xxxxx adds:

>>2) Col. Campbell's race was not caucasian.  Possibly not an error;
>>   I don't recall the details of his disguise at the time Hazel
>>   did the geisha bit.

>[....]Publishers came to the conclusion that
>there is a significant group of people -- in fact, if Chuq is to be
>believed, entire REGIONS of the country -- where people won't buy books
>if they think they include dark-skinned people. I suppose this is
>possible, but it's really a bunch of shit.

Just thought I'd point out that what really seems to be said is not
``people won't buy the books,'' but ``booksellers won't stock the
books.''  

This, of course, fits my predjudice that most science fiction readers
are more open-minded than others.  This is only somewhat tounge-in-
cheek.  Let's do an experiment: everyone that remembers ``The Moon is
a Harsh Mistress'' and had no trouble believing in the viability of
the O'Kelly-Davis family raise your hands.  See?  Look at all those
hands . . . .

	Mike


-- 
Mike Beede         Secure Computing
beede@sctc.com     1210 W. County Rd E, Suite 100           
------------------ Arden Hills, MN  55112
                       (612) 482-7420
From: willimsa@unix1.tcd.ie (Gavin Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Tolkien's characters
Date: 30 Jul 92 12:49:11 GMT
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin

In <712392300.F00002@tdkt.kksys.com> ddb@tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-Bennet) writes:


> CY> the term.  Would you really call Aragorn, Gandalf, Theoden, Saruman, even
> CY> Legolas and Gimli, credible and well-filled characters?

>Seems to me that this, like everything else of interest, is a matter
>of opinion.  Credible?  Definitely.  Well-filled?  Completely
>adequate for the job.  All of them are at least three-dimensional,
>generally much more.  None of them are plastic or unreal to me.


I must add, however, that in the BBC radio dramatisation of TLOTR, the
character of Aragorn was by far the weakest.  The actor sounded as if he
was terminally bored with his part!!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written