From: d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi)
Subject: Re: The proof of the Quran (was Re: Jihad in I
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:10:16 GMT


In article <1993Jan20.005210.7213@s1.gov>, lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan19.131207.7623@kth.se> d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi) wr
ites:
|> >In article <y1c3lx=@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@lib107.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman
 Johnson) writes:
|> : In article 707@kth.se, d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi) writes:
|> : >In article <1993Jan14.182920.27657@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, muttiah@thistle.
ecn.purdue.edu (Ranjan S Muttiah) writes:
|> : : In article <1993Jan14.120207.18746@kth.se> d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skep
i) writes:
|> : : >In article <1993Jan13.151405.6636@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, muttiah@thistle
.ecn.purdue.edu (Ranjan S Muttiah) writes:
|> >[ some pages deleted ]
|> 
|>      But I thought that it was sacrilege to try to go to the Moon
|> :-) Carl Sagan, yes, the Great Sagan, reported in _Broca's Brain_ that
|> some Muslims supposedly considered the Apollo Moon landings sacrilege.
|> What would say to _those_ characters?

:-)... I apologize for my lack of knowledge but who is Carl Sagan????
I've heard his name somewhere but can't remember where....

I've never heard about any Muslims looking at the Moon landings as
sacrilege but you never know....
 
Personally I think it is nothing wrong with landing on the Moon but 
maybe it would have been better to use that money for the poor and 
needy in for example Africa instead. 

|> 
|>      Allah created the rocket fuel? Let's see...
|> 
|>      Liquid Oxygen. That was produced by chilling air enough to
|> liquefy it and letting the nitrogen boil off. The Earth's oxygen is
|> produced by plants and algae, using the biochemical equivalent of an
|> electrolytic cell powered by solar cells.
|> 
|>      Kerosene. Separated from crude oil by fractional distillation.
|> The crude oil itself? Interesting question, but my favorite hypothesis
|> is decomposed microorganisms that feast on deep-earth methane (Tommy
|> Gold's hypothesis).
|> 
|>      Hydrogen. Prepared from natural gas (I don't remember exactly
|> how). I like Tommy Gold's hypothesis on natural gas.
|> 

:-)... just curious do you work for NASA???

But the question of creation is still there. Where did all the components 
come from???? Lets face it mankind has never really *created* something, we 
have only used the things which already were created and manipulated them 
into something we need.. The protons, neutrons and electrons were already 
there.

It is like building with Lego (btw do you have that in the USA??). You can
build anything with it, houses, cars, planes, spaceships whatever, as long 
as you have the already made components. Still you do not create anything
you just use your fantasy and the components you have and through them build 
something. But if you do not have the components then you can't build any-
thing. So ultimately God is the Creator and not mankind.

God sees and knows everything we do according to the Islamic view. 
We can't hide from God. 

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(10:61)" And you are not (engaged) in any affair, nor do you recite
concerning it any portion of the Quran, nor do you do any work but 
We are witnesses over you when you enter into it, and there does not 
lie concealed from your Lord the weight of an atom in the earth or in 
the heaven, nor any thing less than that nor greater, but it is in a 
clear book."


|>      Of course, Allah could be responsible for _everything that
|> happens_, for all we know. But I'm not sure if the Koran endorses this
|> complete and undiluted pantheism, in which the Universe would
|> disappear if Allah ever went on strike.
|> 
|> >Some verses from the Quran which from your atheistic point of view 
|> >don't say much but from a religious point of view gives you a hint to
|> >what I mean:
|> 
|> >In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
|> >(90:7-9)"Thinketh he that none beholdeth him? Have We not made for 
|> >him a pair of eyes, and a tongue, and a pair of lips?"
|> 
|>      I thought that embryos were self-assembling :-) Unless you're
|> the kind of pantheist mentioned above.
|> 

|> >In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
|> >(96:1-5: The first revelation to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh))
|> >"Proclaim (or read) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who 
|> >created, created man out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood; 
|> 
|>      Clot of blood? I thought it was a clod of dirt (read the book
|> of Genesis :-)

:-)....

A leading embryologist from the University of Toronto, Dr Keith Moore
was invited by Saudi Arabia to see if he could explain some verses from 
the Quran. He together with Dr Robert Edwards found that the verses in 
the Quran regarding this was an accurate description of the human embryo's 
stage-by-stage development, which was proposed by western experts in 1940
and most of which was proved only about the past 15 years. 
He said:" I am amazed at the scientific accuracy of these statements which 
were made in the seventh century." 

The below stuff was written and posted in S.R.I by a Br. some time ago and
may explain it a little deaper:
****************************************************************************

G. - Human Embryological and Fetal Development

The Qur'an has an extensive amount of information on the growth of the 
human embryo and fetus, especially the former.  Before presenting this 
information, it may be helpful to provide a brief outline of human 
development in the womb as modern science understands it. [10]

        1. An unfertilized egg is produced by the 
        female, and is subsequently placed in her 
        Fallopian tubes.

        2. The male cohabits with the female, and a 
        single sperm cell fertilizes the egg.

        3. The fertilized egg retreats into the uterus, 
        and attaches itself to the uterine wall.

        4. Embryological growth (roughly 3 months).

        5. Fetal growth (6 months).

        6. Birth

We will examine some of these stages in greater detail as the verses in 
the Qur'an require.  First, however, two verses which give a general 
overview of human development:

        [71:14]
        ...seeing that it is He (God) Who has created 
        you in stages...

        [35:11]
        And Allah created you from dust, then from a 
        drop, then He made you pairs (male and 
        female)...

The first verse is a most general, yet accurate description of our 
creation as coming in stages (see the six step outline above).  The 
second verse puts some perspective on the whole affair: how man 
originally came from dust, then from a drop, and followed by the 
development into one of the sexes.

There are at least four specific details regarding human development in 
the Qur'an which modern science has revealed only within the last few 
centuries, and in some cases only in this present century.  The first 
concerns the emission of semen:

        [75:37]
        Was he (man) not a drop of semen emitted?

In spite of the large amount of liquid which can be produced by a man 
during human intercourse, this verse emphasizes that only a small drop 
of it is important.

The second important detail in the Qur'an on human development is the 
description of the fertilizing liquid (i.e. semen):

        [86:6]
        He (man) is created from a gushing liquid.

        [76:2]
        We created the human from a drop which is a 
        mixture...

        [32:8]
        Then He (God) made his (Adam's) progeny from a 
        quintessence of a despised liquid.

The second and third verses relate to the contents of semen.  Modern 
science has established that semen is in fact a composition of different 
secretions which come from four different glands during ejaculation: the 
testicles, the seminal vesicles, the prostate gland, and the urinary 
tract glands.  The actual sperm cells come from the testicles; the other 
three glands produce no fertilizing agents.  The Qur'an goes farther 
than just informing us that semen is a mixture of liquids.  It also 
tells us in [32:8] that only the "quintessence" of the liquid is used 
(the "despised" comes from the fact that semen is emitted from the same 
place as urine, and thus may be despicable in some people's sight).  The 
Arabic word for "quintessence" in this verse signifies extracting the 
absolute best out of something.  The numbers tell the story: a normal 
ejaculation involves about 3 ml of fluid containing between 120,000,000 
and 150,000,000 sperm cells.  Of these cells, only one fertilizes the 
egg in the female, and this is the point which [32:8] alludes to. [15]

A third detail of human development mentioned in the Qur'an concerns the 
newly fertilized egg:

        [75:37-38]
        Was he (man) not a drop of semen emitted?  Then 
        he did become something leech-like which 
        clings...

Recent observations of the fertilized egg in the womb have revealed that 
the egg literally implants itself into the uterine wall.  It "clings" in 
the strongest sense, and it remains like so in the early stage of 
development.  On top of that, the developing organism acts as a leech on 
the female host in the sense that it draws its sustenance directly from 
its mother's body. [10]

Finally, the Qur'an gives a fascinating account of embryological 
development (the first three months) in the following verses (certain 
words have been transliterated directly from the Arabic):

        [23:14]
        ...We made the drop into an ALAQAH (leech-like 
        structure), and then We changed the ALAQAH into 
        a MUDGHAH (chewed-like substance), then We 
        changed the MUDGHAH into IDHAAM (bones, 
        skeleton), then We clothed the IDHAAM with LAHM 
        (flesh, muscles), then We caused him to grow and 
        come into being as another creation.

        [22:5]
        ...We created you out of dust, then out of a 
        drop, then out of a MUDGHAH, partly formed and 
        partly unformed...

Verse [23:14] divides embryological development into four stages.  The 
first stage picks up right after fertilization ("drop"), and is 
characterized by an ALAQAH or "leech-like structure" which describes how 
the egg implants itself into the uterus (see above).  The second stage 
describes the embryo as evolving into a MUDGHAH which means something 
which has been chewed (especially a piece of meat), or which has the 
appearance of having been chewed.  This apparently crude description is 
quite accurate: after the fertilized egg lodges itself in the uterus, it 
begins to receive its first nutrients and energy from its mother.  
Consequently, it begins to grow especially rapidly, and after a week or 
two it looks like a ragged piece of meat to the naked eye.  This effect 
is enhanced by the development of small buds and protrusions which will 
eventually grow into complete organs and limbs.  

The next two stages described in verse [23:14] tell of bones being made 
from the MUDGHAH, followed by the "clothing" of the bones with flesh or 
muscles.  If we follow the progress of the embryo with our own eyes, we 
find that after approximately four weeks, a process called 
differentiation begins, where groups of cells within the embryo 
transform themselves to form certain large organs.  One of the earliest 
structures to develop in this stage is the cartilaginous basis of the 
human skeleton (in subsequent months, the cartilage hardens or 
ossifies).  It is followed soon after by the appearance of a host of 
other organs including muscles, ears, eyes, kidneys, heart, and more.  
This maintains the order described in the Qur'an.  Verse [23:14] 
concludes with the growth of the organism in the womb (and simple growth 
is the primary characteristic of the fetal stage) followed by its birth.

Verse [22:5] adds one more interesting note on the embryo.  In this 
verse, the MUDGHAH is qualified with the phrase "partly formed and 
partly unformed."  As alluded to above, our modern observations of 
embryological development have revealed how different structures and 
organs develop one after another through differentiation.  This gives 
rise to unusual situations where the embryo is unevenly formed (i.e. 
lungs but no ears for example). [11,16]

Ref:
[10].  Bucaille, Maurice.  The Bible, the Qur'an, and Science.  American 
Trust Publications, Indiana, 1979

[11].  Moore, K., A. Zindani, M. Ahmed.  New Terms For Classifying Human 
Development

[15].  Sussman, Maurice.  Developmental Biology.  Prentice-Hall, New 
Jersey, 1973

[16].  Bodemer, Charles.  Embryology, Encyclopedia Americana.  Grolier 
Incorporated, Connecticut, 1988

|> >do not even control ourselves. So who/what does it? And who/what 
|> >created everything around us? 
|> 
|>      What creates everything about us?
|> 
|>      As far as I can tell, what goes on before. Plants grow from
|> seeds, and make new seeds. Mountains are pushed up, bit by bit, by
|> earthquakes. Rivers and lakes and oceans are created by water flowing
|> downhill. Etc. etc. etc.
|> 
|>      I don't see any kind of God involved except a purely
|> pantheistic one (_everything that happens_ is due to this being making
|> it happen); the hypothesis of partial divine intervention requires
|> that we should have some way of telling the difference between what
|> this being or beings is and isn't responsible for. Is Allah
|> responsible for a dry leaf falling off a tree? A car's tire keeping
|> its shape? A BART train not turning itself into a big ball of aluminum
|> foil? The fluorescent lights in my office glowing blue-white and not
|> orange and green? Water being fluid and not forming sticky little
|> balls? Trees growing upwards and not sideways? Orange juice not
|> smelling like gasoline? Etc. etc. etc. And how _can_ one tell, one way
|> or another?
|> 

Everything is under the Laws Created by God (or the Laws of Nature 
if you prefer) and as such these things have diffrent properties 
and behaves in diffrent ways. And they will continue to do so until
God wants diffrently..... 

|> 	And BTW, why can't there be more than one of such a being. Why
|> not a big community? A lot of the Universe looks like it was designed
|> by committee.
|> 

The answer is that it then propably would be chaos everywhere??? Just 
think about if one of them gets angry and starts fighting with the rest..
Even if there was some kind of democracy, problems would still come up 
that would create divisions between them.... 

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(23:91)"Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was 
there with him any (other) god-- in that case would each god 
have certainly taken away what he created, and some of them 
would certainly have overpowered others; glory be to Allah 
above what they describe!

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(13:16)" Say: Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?-- 
Say: Allah. Say: Do you take then besides Him guardians who do 
not control any profit or harm for themselves? Say: Are the 
blind and the seeing alike? Or can the darkness and the light 
be equal? Or have they set up with Allah associates who have 
created creation like His, so that what is created  became 
confused to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and 
He is the One, the Supreme."

Peace
Gani Skepi
d89-gsk@nada.kth.se

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(SAHIH MUSLIMIN- HADITH 79)" ... I heard the Messenger of Allah
(pbuh) saying: He who amongst you should see something abominable
should modify it with the help of his hand; and if he has not
strength enough to do it, then he should do it with his tongue, and
if he has not strength enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhort 
it) from his heart, and that is the least of faith."
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