From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: God speaks
Date: 6 Nov 92 16:07:41 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <720984135.171@minster.york.ac.uk> cjhs@minster.york.ac.uk writes:
|In case anyone wonders; I am an atheist. I hope a fair minded one.
|
|Kent provides a quote from Russell: (I think it provided by Kent)
|>So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in
|>praise of intelligence.
|>                -- Bertrand Russell
|
|I personally found Russell's comment of little significance. Who cares?
|You don't need to praise intelligence. I don't recall one word in any
|of the maths papers I have written in praise of intelligence either.
|I do not consider this any kind of defect in my papers.

Good point.  The Christian approach does not meritted high intellect
else all would not be able to gain membership.  That is not to
say intellect is to be despised, but I would say that it can keep
the focus on your ability (i.e., man's ability, in general) and
so keep you from focusing on God's ability.

By all means, I believe Christianity contains the utmost in wisdom
and power, if you grant us the fact (which really doesn't depend
upon your grant, for it is true) that Our Saviour (Our God, Our
Lord, Jesus of Nazareth) is the Creator of all that you see.  There
is no small amount of intellect required for that.  Man's ability
hasn't even come close to doing ANYTHING near that which God did
through creation.  Don't you agree the one who created all you
see and even yourself is far above your own ability and intellect?

However, as I was saying above, man's ability is not what merits
favor with God.  Favor with God in the form of salvation (i.e.,
being able to relate to God both now and for eternity) is through
faith and not through works (intellect, wisdom, money, nor the lack 
thereof any of these) - IT IS BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE it is a gift
of God to all who believe and call upon the Name of Jesus.

Christianity teaches that Jesus was and is God - and he humbled
himself and was found in the form of a servant (a man.)  He is 
recorded to have grown in widsom with God AND man.  [I think
the point of intellect being discussed here ignores growing in
wisdom with God.  Since a man, who has no superior power to which 
to look upwards and from which to draw wisdom, can only judge/compare
himself and others with what mere man can do.]  God the Creator
of the Universe (the creator of all that is visible and invisible)
humbled himself and came to walk with us as a man himself.

This Jesus (God in the flesh) told us that unless we come as little
children (having faith like a child - fulling trusting) then we
could not enter the kingdom.  We cannot brain our way into the
kingdom - we can use our brain for the kingdom and many have and
do.  This same Jesus (God in the flesh,) who is recognized as 
being far superiour to man (he is superior to the angels) told us
also that one must humble himself and be servant of all, in order
to be first.  (He who is first is last and he who is last if first.)


Jesus gave us a new undestanding of the order of things.  Humbling
oneself is what God calls for NOT big intellects.  He wants
all to come to him - whether rich or poor, dumb or smart or whatever.
He provided the way.  It is a greater challenge for the smart
to humble themselves, for they think they can do everything themselves,
but God say you don't have to do it yourself - God has done it
all - we are called to believe.  The Old Testament tells us that
God desires us to love mercy, to seek justice, and to walk HUMBLY
with our God.

|Russell provides here a sound-bite; not an argument. In a debate, such
|a line would rightly be rubbished as a snide implication that the gospel
|writers don't actually think intelligence is a good thing, without giving
|anything to support that conclusion.
|
|Having said this, I think Russell's line is not an argument, but a
|provocation inviting one to consider the role of intelligence within
|Christian teaching.
|
|Several people have rushed into to demonstrate that Russel was
|wrong. The quotes they provide, however, serve to reinforce my
|perception that the gospel message is not supported by intelligence
|or rational argument, but by revelation.

Christianity came by POWER and revelation.  We testify to these
facts.  The Creator of the universe came and show us that he is
by far more powerful than we.  Jesus showed us how to live and
told us to come to Himself - not to brain nor buy our way into
heaven.  This Jesus told us to humble ourselves and be servants.
He had all power and authority, but he called for people to be
humble and gave the example of doing so.

|Here I consider Brian's attempt (Richard Pitt's contribution was
|just as berwildering if not worse).

Consider my attempt - it is harder than just discounting it
with the phrase "[it] was just as bewildering if not worse." 

I think you missed the intro to my post.  It said that the
concept of wisdom and understanding are through out the Bible.

Another point is that my post was to show that man's wisdom
withour in inspite of God's wisdom does not merit favor with
God.  God's wisdom and understanding is FAR ABOVE ours.  

THE WHOLE BOOK OF PROVERBS addresses wisdom and relationships.

|Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615 (brian@lpl.arizona.edu) wrote:
|: Then I guess Betrand Russell wasn't too intelligent.
|
|Advice: do not put yourself in a position where your intelligence is
|mutually exclusive with Russell's. (I would extend the same advice to
|atheists when discussing the reasoning power of intelligent theists.)
|
|: Matthew 5:17-18:
|: 
|:     Do not think that I have come to abolish
|:     the Law or the Prophets; I have not
|:     come to abolish them but to fufill
|:     them.  I tell you the truth, until
|:     heaven and earth disappear, not the
|:     smallest letter, not the least stroke
|:     of a pen, will by any means disappear
|:     from the Law until everything is 
|:     accomplished.
|
|No mention of intelligence at all; it is quite correct to say that this
|has no word in praise of intelligence. Proverbs certainly does praise
|wisdom, but this special pleading that the words of the gospel include
|the words of everything praised by the gospels would indicate praise of
|smashing of heads of Babylonian babies, and other nonsense.

Not special pleading, but understanding.  Jesus said he was
greater than Solomon, the writter of Proverbs.  If someone is
greater, then there is a good chance he is wiser - has a
greater intellect.  You know the people were amazed at Jesus'
teachings, for he taught with authority.  Surely the Creator
is pretty wise.

|Of more interest to me is that Christians certainly have discarded
|most of the law, which means that Jesus was wrong: or else that I
|am about to see yet another spectacular rewording of scripture by
|its professed supporters.

The word FULFILL means to complete - Jesus did complete the
law - He is the testimony of prophecy - he fulfilled the 
sacrifical system and sat down at the Father's right hand.
This was something human priest could never do (they could
never finish), for they contunially offer sacrifices and 
they continually stand and work - Jesus sat down - He was finished.

|: Also Jesus's greatest commandment:
|: 
|: Matthew 22:37
|: 
|:     Love the Lord your God with all your
|:     heart and with all your soul and with
|:     all your mind.
|
|Not praise of intelligence. Praise of God; and the requirement that
|intelligence be used in God's service.  The position of the gospels is
|that truth is revealed by God, and that intelligence is good but
|subservient to that revealed truth.

Jesus called for us to use our whole self in service to God.
You see riddled throughout people speaking for God with wisdom
and power - Dr. Luke said Jesus gave many convincing proofs that
he was alive - Stephen argued with such wisdom that his opposition
could not oppose him - Paul always defended the faith with his
mind and with the Spirit.

|My own experience (Christian for many years, ordained elder in the
|church, but eventually and regretfully an atheist) was that it was
|allowing my mind free reign that meant I could no longer serve God.

I sincerely, ask was it for mental flexibility or some other
reason that you really left the church?  Did your lifestyle
change - did your morals change - do any of our actions/thoughts
change?

What was your view of Jesus the Christ (Jesus of Nazareth,
the Son of Mary and Joseph) - was he God or a god or a good
man or what?

|I know of intelligent theists who have different experience.
|
|Felicitations -- Chris Ho-Stuart

It seems for you to discount God and the teachings of Christ
one would have to put oneself on the same level with God and
so say to God "I'm equal with you and I'll do what I want to 
do."

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |