From: abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Germans and Jews
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:41:08 EST
Followup-To: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <dieter-270193102700@frueh-koelsch.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>, dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:
> In article <1993Jan26.034806.19799@husc3.harvard.edu>,
> abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu wrote:
>> 
>> In article <dieter-250193104759@frueh-koelsch.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>, 
>> dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:
> 
> [...] you see that cruelty existed on both sides. 

Of course it did. But what we began with that there was much more cruelty per
soldier on the German side. BTW, comparison with Red Army is not you could be
proud of. It was not that much difference between Stalin and Hitler.
 
>I don't know what the situation was for Russian prisoners in German camps, I 
> can only imagine.

You cannot. However if you want I might send you what books were wrighten about
it. But it is far from "imagining".  

> If you say, that most died of starvation, this sounds logical, since at the
> end of the war, Germany in general was starving, so the ones who would die
> first were the captured hostile troops.

Majority were captured in 1941, when Germany was far from starving, and died of
starvation in a few monthes. Huge POW camp (probably the largest in history) a 
mile from Kiev was opened in the beginning of October 1941 when German army 
encircled 25% of Russian troops (Russians prefered not to dig it up, German
estimations were 600,000 POW - the worst Russian defeat). Relatives came from 
all over Ukraine trying to help their kinsman. Food pacels were not allowed. In
December Germans closed that camp because almost everybody died. Story became 
famous becouse there were 900,000 people in Kiev at that time. BTW, Kiev was 
full with German troops. There is no way they didn't know. In reality
conditions of Russian prisoners improved when Germany was starving. Nazis were
afraid of resposibility. 
  
> I think a the greatest fraction of German POWs returned home eventually, 
> while most Russians were killed. Is this true?

Yes. You should add to it that after the war was over Stalin ordered to arrest 
all POWs as traitors. He said that they should commit suicide either then
surrender. So they had to survive for 11 years in Russian camps for Russians
before Khruschov freed them. As result even though millions of Russians
surrendered during the war (especially in 1941) I have NEVER seen one who
managed to go alive through all these camps.
   
>> That is a problem: you need a pyramid. Every next level is less cruel, but 
>> have to stand cruelties of the previous level. It's not kind of exercise 
>> which will make your heart softer. Ever read Remark?
> 
> No. What's the name of his book?

Well... He wrote in German, I read Russian translations and know I have to 
translate titles in English! I bet it would be far from original, but you have
to forgive me. "There are no changes on the Western front" (about WW1, but we 
are talking about how cruelties are changing people, so it is not matter) and
"It is time to live and time to die" (about WW2). BTW, Remark is one of my 
favorite German authors.

> Such a pyramid of obediance is the basis of every army. [...] the pyramid is 
> very strongly organized, like the one in former Soviet Union or in Nazi 
> Germany, a coup is not very probable. [...] It took its head to be kicked off 
> to break the pyramide in the end.

So what? Germans did not have many choices. Humans are humans, so they made
wrong decision and were corrupted. But 1)we should condemn them, 2)we should
understand that they were corrupted because best people were killed, many
people made cruelties and average Germans were used to stand and sometimes even
to take part in them or to applause them. BTW, many things were evident about
Nazis even in the beginning but first coup attempts happened much later and NOT
because of their atrocities.

>> I am not judging them. I could understand them. I pity them. But I am also 
>> have to condemn them and their deeds. Because a man has at least moraly 
>> answer for what he did and what he didn't.
> 
> In that, I agree. Didn't the Germans after the war admit their moral faults?

Government did. Under Allies occupation. I am not sure that average Germans
admitted their moral faults.

>> I hope they will. But we are talking about nowdays, aren't we?
> 
> True, but remember that the east makes up only 40 % of the German popula-
> tion, and that most East Germans are not racist at all. There are just 
> more racists relative to the population. This is because they haven't 
> grown up with many foreigners.

I think that living with foreigners have nothing to do with racism, even though
it sounds "strange". Poles lived with Jews for 800 years. There were 3.5
millions of Jews in a country of 27 millions and antisemitism was *very* 
strong. There are 3000 Jews now in Poland and antisemitism *is* very strong. 
BTW, Hitler recieved 38% of votes in 1932. 40% is *VERY* much. Don't forget
that extremists are always more politicaly active then average folks, who might
easily be lazy to vote.
> 
>> Doesn't it mean that average white Southern has more against the blacks than
>> the average white Yankee? You could also see how people voted. 60% of white
>> population of Louisiana voted for Duke who is a former member of KKK, who
>> celebrated Hitler's birthday last year and made his election compain as an open
>> anti-black and anti-Jewish Southern. He is not a governor only because 30% of
>> Louisiana's population is black.
> 
> So, facism is not just a German problem. If here, 60 % would vote for
> right extremist parties ... what would the Jews say (and be right with it)?

You know when I sent my previous posting I just thoght: "Now they would use it
against me". I won. You used it immediatly. Louisiana voters have their excuses
too (as Germans in 1932) which are NOT sufficient from my point of view. Jews
said a lot about that voting, don't feel discriminated. It was voting only in
one state, when he tried to run for president it did give him anything except
embarrassment. Well... What has it to do with Germany? Every country has its
own problems.

>>BTW, do you think that Germans learned a lot from WW1?
> 
> What exactly? 

They didn't learn how costly are wars (a *lot* of Germans were killed in WW1).
Why should I expect the to learn it from WW2?

>> > I was talking about how people regarded the American troopers: As libera-
>> > tors, send from an ideal country.
>> > A people which has this point of view can be expected to adopt the same
>> > rationals as its idol. 
> 
> This is true for individuals, not for generations. [...] What also counts is 
> what they are taught in school. 

Sure. Only for individuals. But I suspect that there are more such individuals 
generation. BTW, I began not with your generation, but with generation of, lets
say, your father. What did your father was taught in school? Did you ever
looked through his textbooks?

                             Cordially

                             Victor Abkevich

Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish