HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 45 ACP, 9mm
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:08:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: chpc.1992Nov16.165044.24984
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <1992Nov13.205526.23041@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
#
##The 10mm is being relegated to the ballistic scrapheap of history -
 ...

J. DelVechio writes :

#I think it will become like the .38 Super is now: ie not the most 
#popular choice by a long shot, but always one of the options, 
#and with more interest shown by reloaders than by those who use 
#only factory ammo.

The current polularity of the .38 super is primarily due to one factor - IPSC.
Current rules make this one of the most advantageous calibers for that
game.  Interestingly enough, IPSC "rescued" the .38 super from the 
"ballistic scrapheap" - when is the last time you ran into a .38 super 
which was not either an IPSC gun, or influenced by IPSC?  (I've seen one -
a Colt serial #7xxx that a club member uses as a carry gun).   

I'd guess that the presence of factory .38 super ammo and factory .41mag
ammo is equally obscure at gunshops (present, but not prevelant).

Rob Boudrie
rboudrie@chpc.org
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Opinions on Grendel P-12
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:10:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: upchrch.s71auB1w164w
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

I'm thinking of buying a Grendel P-12 for a pocket gun to carry in
situations where I couldn't easily carry my usual gun, a S&W 6906. I've
seen the P-12 and it looks like something the could easily be carried in
my pants pocket, especially with a square holster to break up the
outline. The DAO trigger is an attractive feature for me as is the
price, since I don't have the money to spend right now for something I'm
only going use once in a while.

I read the article about it in the October Handguns, but I'm wondering
if anyone has some first hand experience with it. I'm especially
concerned about reports concerning it's reliability and durability. How
well do those plastic magazines hold up and do they feed reliably? I
know I'm not going to drive any nails with it, but what kind of groups
should I expect at 21 feet. Also because of the short (three inch)
barrel I'm considering using only FMJ ammo, since I'm concerned that
.380 hollowpoints may not get enough penetration when fired from such a
short barrel.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: lrf@quasar.genrad.com (Larry R. Forest)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: target/hunting rifle
Date: 21 Nov 92 23:34:58 GMT
Organization: GenRad, Inc.


I am looking for a winter project of sporterizing a military rifle. This
rifle may be used for an ELK hunt in the future in the northwest.
I assume that a swedish 6.5mm would be to light for this but would be better
for informal target practice.

I can get whatever I want for cost thanks to my handy brother-in-laws ffl.
Rifles considered:  Lee Enfield #4 about $70.
		    Carcanos 6.5mm about $30. (lousy action i was told)
		    Chilean    -----|
		    Brazilian       |-- MAUSERS  98 action only
		    Argentinean-----|
		    Springfield 1903

What can I get in 7mm Mag. for hunting purposes?
I do reload so ammo would be no problem.


Thanks Larry
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ramline Sig Magazines...
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:09 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1992Nov18.171411.17005@netcom.com>, pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:
# Does anyone have any experience, good or bad, with Ramline's 18-round (!) Sig
# P226 magazines?  I was considering ordering a couple, but would like to know
# what their reputation for reliability/durability is.  Thanks in advance...
# 
# Paul Yoshimune

I used to think highly of Ramline's pistol magazines.  I won't buy them
any more.  They don't seem to last long enough to trust my life on.



-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
We could say that Congress spends money like drunken sailors.  But that would
be unfair -- to the sailors.  They, at least, are spending their own money.
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Denver Gun Show
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:50:31 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <9211231607.AA04223@stortek.com> vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak) writes:
#I went to the Tanner gun show in Denver this weekend.  It had to be
#the most crowded show I've seen!  ...

I was there too. :)

#...
#Colt ARs were running bewteen $800-$1200 depending on model and
#accessories.  Mini-14s were $495 and up depending on configuration.

You probably didn't talk to the right guy. The Dave's Gun ( not me ) was 
selling Colt ARs between $610 and $650.

#My SIG 228, which I bought ~6 months ago for $550, was now going
#for $650+.  ...

I got  a SIG 228 at that gun show for $550, from the Dave's Gun.
Note that I'm NOT related to him at all. 
 
#I ending up buying a hi-tec, rifle that can be broken down for easier
#storage.  I was a bit worried what my wife would say when she saw it,
#(collapsable stock, barrel shroud, 20 rnd mag, fits in a 20"x8", 
#carry case), but her only question was, "If Clinton bans them, will
#it increase in value?" :-)

May I ask what kind? I'm interested in the "increase in value" too. :)

The following is an interesting experience I had in that Tanner show.
I was looking for a holster for my newly purchased SIG P228. Then a
guy showed up beside me and started commenting on holsters. He said
the Galco "Small Of Back" will reveal the gun when you bend over.
Some inside-the-pant holsters are only good for short barrel revolvers.
Then he told me that he is a cop. ( Oops! ) Then he told me not to worry
and said most cops here only want to keep illegally concealed carry away
from the bad guys.  He then suggested me to get a high ride strong side
holster and wear a jacket of coat so others won't get scared. I'm wondering
if there is such thing as the "good guy's look"? :)

David
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
 Communication Services Research  | Defend your life in STEREO - Beretta & SIG 
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks and Lead Bullets?
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:55:40 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <1992Nov22.043754.5571@cbnews.cb.att.com>, lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani) writes:
#That "improved" barrels for the Glocks are being manufactured is
#rather amusing; I've also read of "improved" bullet designs for
#the Glock.

	Hu? Why is it amusing? I've seen a glock shot sub-2" groups 
	with a BarSto barrel installed. I've never (out of about
	10 or so) seen another glock that would do better than about
	3.5-4". 

#-- 
#Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Answering the door at 11PM, without a gun. . .
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:00 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


## Assuming that a person does NOT possess a firearm, what it the best
## approach for dealing with a stranger at the door at 11PM?

Inspect the person through the peephole viewer, standing to one side.
If you don't recognize them, either ignore them (they'll either go away
or eventually try to break in on the assumption that nobody is home) or
ask them what they want without opening the door at all.  If they claim
to represent some outfit with legitimate business ask to see their ID
(if possible have them slide it under the door).  If they seem suspicious,
tell them you're not interested and to go away (optionally, ask them to
contact you at a decent hour in a place where you will have others nearby).

Why in the world would you not possess a weapon to defend yourself and
family at home in case somebody does try to break in?
From: dstine@cisco.com (David Stine)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Thoughts on SA M1A
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:31:25 GMT
Organization: one tired puppy


Howdy, all:

I'm casting about for thoughts, opinions and experiences on the Springfield
M1A line. In particular, I'm curious as to:

- the real reason one should get the TRW bolt
- are the higher priced versions worth the money (there is a version
  with a better bolt/receiver and one with that and a heavier barrel, or so
  I'm told by the GuysBehindTheCounter)
- what the upkeep/cleaning routine is like.
- mods or smith work which has a good bang/buck value or is a "you should
  really get this done -- it makes a world of difference" issue.
- oh, and, what the best price you've seen for the various versions is,
  should you have that info handy.

please email to dsa@cisco.com -- i'll summarize and repost if people would
like.

many thanks,
dsa
From: bressler@iftccu.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Get Out vs. Freeze ( was: Re: Bad tactical position)
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:28 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) /  6:09 pm  Nov 16, 1992 /


#IMHO, the best course of action is to leave  a  suspect  a  clear
#possibility  to  escape.  If I found somebody inside my flat, I'd
#yell "GET OUT  HERE  OR  I  SHOOT  YOU!  OUT  NOW!",  instead  of
#"FREEZE!" or something similar.

This isn't a bad idea if you are sure the person isn't armed and you're 
sure (for whatever reason) that they aren't likely to come back at a later
date.  I'd advise against ordering somebody that you suspect may be armed 
to move.  By the time you figure out that the movement is grabbing their 
gun shooting you instead of running away it will be too late.  Also true 
for a knife or club type weapon if they are close.  (If they are in your
house they are probably too close, unless you are behind cover.)

Rick
From: adam@aj.clubfed.sgi.com (Adam C. Joseph)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AMT/IAI New .380 DA Information Wanted
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:39:55 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

Has anyone seen the new AMT yet.  I heard mention of it in G & A and I 
would love to hear some first impressions.

Thanks in advance,

adam

-- 

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Adam Joseph			email:		adam@clubfed.sgi.com	|
| Sales Representative		voice:		(301) 564-1980		|
| Silicon Graphics, Inc. 	fax:		(301) 564-1988		|
| Bethesda, Maryland 		voice mail:	8435			|
| Mail Stop FD-270							|
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Carrying Weapons Laws - Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:10 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <D8E17D82E0001A29@UALR.EDU>, lklawson@acs.harding.edu writes:
# I'm a College student in AR right now and there is an stipulation for carry
# that is left on the books from "the olden days."  Acording to the cops I've
# asked down here, if you are going 50 miles or more along a rout that you do not
# normally travel, then you may wear your weapon loaded (not concealed).  I'm
# pretty sure that this is indended for residents only and its intent is clearly
# based upon the assumption that someone going on a long trip may need to defend
# himself against bandits.  I'm not exactly sure when this peice of legislation
# was penned but I believe that, at the time, the usuall form of locomotion was a
# horse.
# 
# Kirk Lawson

Right you are.  The statute was originally passed in 1875, when the
Republicans lost control of the Legislature.  (This was the end of
Reconstruction in Arkansas).  The exemption for travellers was
contained in the statute, and was specifically upheld in the cases
Wilson v. State, 33 Ark. 557 (1878) and Holland v. State, 33 Ark.
560 (1878) -- though the Arkansas Supreme Court limited the right
to carry to "war arms" -- those that were military in nature.
At least in the case of Holland, he was a resident of Texas,
passing through Arkansas.

If you want a detailed discussion of these cases, and how they
were subsequently used to justify restrictive gun control laws,
my new book as more than you ever wanted to know!
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
We could say that Congress spends money like drunken sailors.  But that would
be unfair -- to the sailors.  They, at least, are spending their own money.
From: kchang@draco.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Lee Enfield No. 4 Blowing up?
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:09 GMT
Organization: Rutgers University RUCS-Newark


	Did anyone hear about Lee Enfield No. 4 blowing up due to old, damaged
barrel?  I heard that there is a ban on shooting No. 4 in U.K.  I was 
wondering if the surplus No. 4 availble in U.S. is safe. 

	How much would it cost to replace the barrel on a No. 4?
From: mcdphx!systemname!gcall@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Glen Call)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle in Defense ( was Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns? )
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:20:33 GMT
Organization: Motorola Computer Group Marketing


[stuff deleted]
|> I'm wondering if you guys can give me a scenario in which I might want to
|> use a rifle instead of other weapons. Thanks.

Scenario:

You're just getting comfortable in camp after a fine day of hunting, fishing,
etc. (pick one), when some cretins start plinking at your cookware from a nearby
hillside.  As you're looking for a suitable refuge, your buddy goes down. 
Retreat is out of the question, and they're out of pistol/shotgun range.

Something similar to this happened several times in Big Bend Nat'l Park. 
Rafters were being taken out by snipers. It stopped when someone (IN CLEAR
VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW) who had brought a .22 rifle returned fire.  I've
talked to backpackers that have had bullets whiz through their camp.

Rifles are also handy when guarding your home during a riot, after a natural
disaster, etc.  A 12 ga. loaded with slugs might suffice, but then again, it
might not.  The much maligned semi-automatic rifles with high capacity magazines
serve this purpose well.

Symptoms of paranoia?  Nope.  Just remembering things that HAVE happened.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glen Call                          Technical Marketing Systems Engineer
Motorola Computer Systems, Inc.    gcall@phx.mcd.mot.com or mcdapps!gcall
DISCLAIMER: The above is strictly my opinion.  I DO NOT SPEAK FOR MOTOROLA!
From: bakc@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR KR COMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .22 LR can kill at 1 mile
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:14:57 GMT
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa

In article <1992Nov17.021551.7687@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#Subject: Re: .22 LR can kill at 1 mile

Didn't a previous poster report an instance from the UK where a child was 
killed by a 22lr at such a range?  Proof positive??

Around 1987, the UK magazine Target Gun also featured a piece on the lethal
range of this cartridge.  They cited an instance where the victim was an 
adult male having a nap out in the countryside.  The bullet hit him in the 
chest wounding him fatally (presume he was on his own and too far from 
aid).  The round had been fired from behind a hill at a high angle.

BTW, about 3 yrs ago a spectator at a Johannesburg sports stadium was put in 
hospital by a 357 Mag round hitting him in the chest.  The shot was fired by 
a couple of drunken bozos from an apartment building about 2.5-3 kms away. 
The victim was just bloody lucky that it didn't hit him in the head.  The 
police used a computer to work out the likely trajectory and thus trace the 
gun for ballistic tests.  In court, the dude claimed that he merely pointed 
the gun up into the air at a high angle and was not actually aiming at the 
well-lit sports arena away in the distance.  The weapon was a 6" Taurus 
revolver.

I guess one should *never* underestimate the potential range of a firearm!!

Cheers,
Keith Coman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Condemning a research report on the basis of :  Dept of Management
 invalid and unreliable methodology is the    :  Rhodes University
 cheapest shot in the book."                  :  Grahamstown, 6140
                                              :  Rep of South Africa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .45 caliber handguns
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:14:58 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

At this point, I'm considering various .45 caliber handguns, with an
eye towards purchasing one of them within the next few months.  Unfortunately,
purchasing all of them is not an option. :(

My strongest inclination is to get a 1911 Colt or clone, because of the
fact that it has been around for 80 years and is still one of the best
(and THE best, in the opinion of many people) combat handguns in the
world.

However, I have a couple hangups about the gun that may be baseless or may
be factors that will influence my final decision.  One of those hangups is
that, if I buy the 1911, I seem to have two choices:  either save my
allowance and spend the extra cash on a Gold Cup OR get the low end model
and spend approximately the same amount of money having it customized (to
handle non-FMJ loads and in the interest of accuracy).  (How do the
Colt 1911 variants (e.g., Combat Commander) stack up in this regard?)

Last weekend, I visited Trader's gun shop in San Leandro (CA) and I thought
I saw a better alternative.  They had a Springfield Armory clone going
for $700, the salesguy promised target gun level accuracy...however, when
I slid the empty magazine in and tried to work the slide release, it
didn't work; we had to pop the magazine out a little, release the slide
and then slide the magazine back in.  Is that a Springfield Armory quirk,
a 1911 Colt/clone quirk or a quirk of that particular gun?  If it's a
Colt/clone quirk, that would tend to rule out my getting a 1911 COlt/clone.

Anyway, after all that rambling, here is the question I would like to
ask:
    Is it possible for me to get an accurate 1911 Colt/clone for less
    than the price of a Gold Cup (about $800) and STILL have it be a
    versatile combat handgun?

If the answer is NO, I will have to consider my next two choices (Sig P220
or Glock 21 (both excellent guns but I LIKE the Colt) more seriously OR save
a long time and get the Gold Cup.

Thanks for your time and, again, thanks to our humble moderator for
providing an important service, very well done.

   don
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Fletchette
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:11 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <9211181018.aa22003@claudius.pica.army.mil>, erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
# Flechettes are made of steel, like their cousins nails :)
# 
# And no they are NOT illegal for civilians, because while the AP bullet
# bans are materials-oriented, they also specify HANDGUN ammunition. Notice
# that 7.62mm NATO AP is banned because there are .308 handguns, while
# 7.9x57 Mauser AP is abundant.
# 
# Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply

However, flechettes are illegal in California.  Penal Code 12020(a)
prohibits "any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette 
dart..."
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
We could say that Congress spends money like drunken sailors.  But that would
be unfair -- to the sailors.  They, at least, are spending their own money.
From: davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: *** GLOCK *** 21, 22, and 23
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:41:22 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <10009@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman) writes:
#
#I'm interested in buying a Glock, probably for carry purposes (concealed???).
#I know they are big, but is there a difference between the Glock .45 ACP and
#.40 S&W size-wise?  How about the 22 & 23?
#
#Does anyone regularly carry the 21, 22, or 23?  Is it uncomfortable?  (I will
#be using a horizontal shoulder outfit.)

23. I use a Milt Sparks Executive Companion inside-the-pants holster. This is
reasonably comfortable and reasonably concealable in the winter months. The
23 is the smaller frame model; I can't imagine concealing the larger frames
(like the 21), but many people do. In summer or indoor carrying, I carry
a Walther PPK/S; I find the 23 too large if I'm not wearing a coat.

#
#Are the barrel lengths all the same?

No. The Glocks come built around two frames, regardless of the caliber. The
23 is an example of the smaller frame; the 21 is an example of the larger.

#
#How much difference in kick is there between the 40 and 45?
#

My 23 (.40 S&W) kicks more than the 21 (.45), probably because it is a smaller
gun. It may actually be less force, but it is a sharper kick.

#Does one tend to be more accurate than the other?  Feed better?

Not in my experience. They all are pretty accurate and eat just about anything
you feed them.

#
#Is the .45 worth the extra $40 or so that it costs?

I would get the .45 if you think you can carry it. But if you need the smaller
model, go for the small framed .40 S&W (the 23). 


Try before you buy. 

	...Dave
From: klofgren@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bart Man )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Beretta 96 Update (.40 S&W)
Date: 22 Nov 92 03:17:58 GMT



Hello all!  This is an informative post on how I am doing with my latest 
purchase:  a Beretta 96 in .40 S&W.  Earlier I made posts inquiring 
about this particular weapon, but got NO responses, so I am assuming 
that nobody else out there owns one? :-)  But seriously, I got one and 
heres what I think and the vital stats:

It is essentially the same gun as the 9mm 92FS series guns except 
chambered in .40 S&W. I believe that it is the same size and everything.
  The grips may be a tad wider though but I  can't seem to tell.  Features 
are identical to the 92 series -> decocker, safetly, etc....  Holds  10 + 1 
rounds of your favorite ammo.  Shoots wonderfully.  I would recommend
 this gun to  any prospective .40 buyer.

What made me get the Beretta?  Well, the consensus on the net seemed 
to be that everyone likes the Smith and Wesson 40-- series.  I went and
 shot the 4006 and honestly thought it was a piece of crap.  I'm not asking 
for any flames... it's just my opinion.  The gun just didn't fit my hand well 
at all and my level of accuracy with the weapon was not satisfactory.  I 
didn't want a Taurus, and the  FireStar is just too small for what I wanted,
 and by the time Sig gets the P229 out, well hell might  have frozen over.
  Another reason I opted for the Beretta was a favorable reveiw by  Massad 
Ayoob  in GUNS Magazine.  I don't usually listen to the gun rags, but 
when Ayoob talks I listen. 

So, all in all, I am happy with my purchase.  Any comments are welcome.

Please e-mail:  klofgren@sdcc13.ucsd.edu


Brent