From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Spirits vs. Animal Rights.  Was: Texas AR Conference
Organization: WP Group
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 17:44:02 GMT

From article <16eeq0INN844@agate.berkeley.edu>, by linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan):
> ... [ much demon-talk and god-talk deleted ]
ml> For the last time, whether I believe in demons or not is not the 
ml> point.  CAN YOU UNDERSTAND?  The point is I never told you this 
ml> and you misrepresented what I told you in an lying effort to 
ml> discredit me.  

If you don't believe in demons, please say so, and I'll be happy
to apologize.  

Alternatively, if you think it's logically possible to believe in the 
literal truth of the bible while not believing in the existence 
of "demons", I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd explain the how's
and why's.  In such a case, I think it'd be obvious to everyone
that one of us has a lot to learn about clear thinking.

rl> In pointing out that you believe in the literal truth of the 
rl> bible, aren't you implying that you also believe in the existence 
rl> of demons (aka goblins), not to mention a sizeable number of 
rl> other spirit-forms?  

ml> Is your interpretation of what you call "implying" the same thing 
ml> as you claiming I SAID THESE THINGS to you?  NO!  The words 
ml> demons, goblins, ghosts or goddesses have NEVER crossed my lips 
ml> (or fingertips) when corresponding with you.  

I believe they have crossed your lips, Mike, although I have 
neither the time nor inclination to root through several months 
of backup tapes for messages that may have been deleted prior to 
the backup capture.  Again, if you don't believe in "spirits", why not
just say so instead of quibbling about the verbatim text of 
statements you've made over a period of many months? 

ml> I believe in what I believe in.  I am not obligated to disclose 
ml> my entire religious beliefs to you.  

I would agree with you _if_ your religious beliefs were a private 
matter, but to the extent that someone like yourself might say that 
killing witch's or killing homosexuals or killing animals is ok 
by god ("ok bi-got") then it doesn't make sense for him to turn 
around and pretend that his beliefs are a private matter.  Such 
beliefs are public in every sense of the word, since they 
radically affect other beings.  

ml> You are mistaken so please, why don't you tell us why you lied?

I may be mistaken, but I surely didn't lie.  To illustrate the 
difference, a man like yourself who believes in demons may be 
mistaken in his assumption that his beliefs are accurate 
representations of reality, but this doesn't mean that his false 
beliefs are deliberate misrepresentations.  After all, he may 
have been mislead by preachers, or he may have misinterpreted the 
evidence, or he might be too stupid to think clearly.  

ml> First you accuse me of making you look foolish for pointing out 
ml> that you believe in "demons".  Then you turn around and declare 
ml> that I look "ignorant" or "foolish" because I don't believe in 
ml> such beings.  

ml> Sometimes you make it very easy for me to think you are dense or 
ml> slow Russell.  It is YOU who thinks I will look foolish by 
ml> stating I believe in demons and that is why you said it.  I on 
ml> the other hand do not even care if others think I'm foolish for 
ml> my religious beliefs or not.  

I realize that you don't care, and I'm glad that you're not afraid
to admit the truth about your beliefs in various spirits.  

rl> You can't have it both ways.  So, which is it:
rl> 
rl>     -- foolish to believe in demons?
rl>     -- foolish not to believe in demons?   (check one box only)

ml> None of you business.  How do you like that Russell?

Suit yourself.  I'm sure that other readers have a pretty good 
idea of your position.  Unfortunately, they may not fully realize 
how the ideas that you've set forth have affected (infected) 
societal distinctions between good actions and bad actions.  

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals