From: evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch)
Subject: Re: Education
Organization: Somewhere just far enough out of Toronto
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:03:53 GMT

In article <12342@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:

>In article (Christopher Browne) writes:

>It used to be illegal to teach in french in
>a lot of provinces.

Yes it did. It isn't now.

The availability of French services outside Quebec is increasing. The
availability of English services in Quebec is decreasing.

TROC is progressing by learning from its mistakes of history.
Quebec is not.


>In Quebec, you'll find
>english schools (for anglo-quebecois) almost anywhere. Even if you
>have only a 5% portion of anglophones.

Like where?

>>(2)  FORBIDDING children to study English in school "because we have
>>to protect the French language," or some such political reason.
>
>It is not FORBIDDING children to study in english. It's: if you want
>to immigrate to Quebec, be aware that your children will be educated
>in in french.

What a marvellous twisting of words.

"Your children will be educated in French" *BECAUSE* it is forbidden to
teach them English.

>If you think that this is unacceptable (i.e., be part of
>the society you are immigrating to),

He wants to be a part of the society he is immigrating to. That society
is the English population of Quebec. Quebec laws do not allow him to
become a full part of this society.

>There is a difference between offical and real bilinguism. Declaring
>Ontario bilingual will not make the people speak french, and a
>francophone would still feel he's a stanger.

A basic difference is now when an Englishman travels to Quebec, the
government *wants* him to feel like a stranger. If a francophone wants
to become a part of the Franco-Ontarien society, there are schools, mass
media, and enough population to sustain its own momentum. Perhaps he is
not encouraged and coddled, but neither is he prevented.

Of course, this idea that the francophone in Ontario "feels" like a
stranger is a metter of emotions, not logic, and not all the money in
the provinces banks accounts will remedy this insecutiry. We are being
asked to feel pity on the francophone who can travel to Ontario and feels
like a stranger, but feel anger at the Anglo who travels into Quebec but
does not.

>Dream on. I have a friend who tried to reach Canada from Japan (by
>phone) in french. Everytime he tried it they were not able to find
>anyone who wanted to speak french. Told him things like "speak
>english, this is Canada" or, most of the time, just hang up.
>Bilingual?

And I can relate horror stories of an opposite nature told by tourists
using the Montreal Metro. What's your point? Why do you believe
that a bad action by the English *requires* equally bad actions from the
French?

>>And some of the offenses are already starting. In Quebec, anglophones
>>ARE being systematically discriminated against. Not as random acts by
>>foolish individuals, but by the government in power.  
>
>Mega-bullshit again.

The biggest proof of the discrimination of the English is by their
exodus. If they are so well treated as you constantly attempt to
mislead, why are they leaving in such large numbers?

As the oppressor of the English in Quebec, the francophone is hardly in
the best position to determine when and where the Anglos do not feel
discriminated against.

>In some parts of Montreal, you cannot get service
>in anything but english.

And in some parts, you cannot get service in anything but Vietnamese.
So what?

>You talk to people in french and they answer
>you in english.

What odd logic can use this statement as proof that these
groups are not subject to state discrimination?

If a merchant won't speak to you in the language of your choice, then
don't buy from them. If enough customers act this way, then these
businesses either:

1) go bankrupt;
2) succeed despite losing the businesses of francophones, because there
   are enough anglophones in their market anyway;
3) succeed because there are no other firms who provide the same service
   but offer it in French (very rare in today's market).

It always amazed me that the Quebec francophones who were so fascinated
by legislating English-dominated business away, had never thought of
boycotting them instead. The boycott is a perfectly legitimate tool to
implement change, and it infringies nobody's rights. On the other hand,
it *affirms* the rights of stores to operate -- and of people to shop --
in any manner they wish.

An organized boycott of English companies and stores who gave poor
service in French would have made most of them adapt the same policies
as the current language laws now force upon them. In might also have
encouraged a new generation of more-sensitive businessmen, anglophone
and francophone both, without restricting a thing.

The present situation may make some people feel better (a good thing, I
guess, to those to whom this is totally an issue of emotions), but has
done so at the expense of the dignity of the minority. Was it worth it?
Were there really no more-reasonable ways to demonstrate that Quebec is
an overwhelmingly -- though not 100% -- French province?

>I don't know of anything similar anywhere outside
>Quebec, i.e., asking something in english and having people answer you
>back in french.

Not French, but perhaps, Chinese, Italian, Portugese, and other
languages. It has to do with the population concentration. That's where
that term you hate but is so obvious to the rest of the world, "where
numbers warrant", has its meaning.
-- 
 Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
         evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan / (416) 452-0504
   Said Captain Jean-Luc Picard to the tailor at his machine: "Make it sew!"