From: jurasanen@phcu.helsinki.fi
Subject: Sandman: On Gods and Endless
Organization: University of Helsinki, Finland
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:10:49 GMT

In article <93020.111835U58505@uicvm.uic.edu>, <U58505@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
> By the same token, are there any atheists out there who read Sandman?
> How do you feel about Gaiman "espousing" the existence of a supreme
> god like being by implication.
I'm a sceptic, meaning I'll accept the existence of things "supernatural"
if proof is presented, but not because of irrational belief. It has been noted
by others that Sandman (with some of the Fairie excepted, of course) is a work
of fiction. Gaiman does not "espouse" the existence of the Christian god any
more than he does of the Egyptian gods. I have found Gaiman's reworkings of
mythology quite enjoyable.
  
> 1)  Were the Endless created by God directly or came into existence as a
>     side effect of his creations?  I'm under the impression that the
>     Endless weren't created directly but were a side effect of his
>     works.  The first created beings (with sentience) were the angels.
>     As soon as God created the first angel, the side effect of that one
>     act was all the Endless coming into existence.
In Season of mists #3 (if I remember correctly) Lucifer asks Dream what he
(Lucifer) was like when he came to be, giving the impression that Dream is
older than Lucifer. Also, it is stated that Death is the second of the Endless,
which doesn't really fit your theory. (Angels are immortal, so Desire or
someone should be older than death) Anyway, I think the way to look at Sandman
mythoses (spelling?) (including the Judeo-Christian) and the Endless is that
their existence is relative. In other words, even though the Endless are
universal, earthlings (us) perceive them in their own way. We see the Endless
as humans both in appearance and mind, for example we see Destruction retire 
to Greece because he does - *on Earth*. However, this in no way affects the
way otherworlders perceice Destruction. Likewise for the Judeo-Christian god
and other deities: they are what people believ. So if many earthlings believe
that God is omnipotent and created everything, then he is and did. From the
viewpoint of the earthlings. (I think it has been stated somewhere in Sandman
-Brief lives maybe?- that gods come forth from the Dreaming and return to the
Dreaming when their time comes. Not sure about this.			

> 2)  Who was the first angel?  I know that Lucifer (originally called
>     Samael) was the greatest and most powerful of the angels, but was
>     he the first?  If he wasn't the first that would mean that Dream is
>     older than Lucifer (by my reasoning of course).  Wow.
See above. (Sorry about bad positioning)

> 3)  Dream tells Matthew that except for the creator, Lucifer is the most
>     powerful being in the universe.  So does this mean that the triumvirate
>     existed because Lucifer let it happen out of boredom?
I think Lucifer said thus in SOM #3.

[an act of destruction]
> him out from the Hell they were building.  An angel banished from
> heaven and denied a place in Hell.  A being like no other in [sorry]
Actually, the idea of "neutral" Angels is from the Middle Ages (I think).
At least Dante had them. But then again, you probably knew that. Oh well.
                                     
> Points that I liked about the Season of Mists:
> 
> 1)  Lucifer acknowledging the power behind the mark of Cain.

And admiring the sunset in the end...

> 2)  Lucifer telling Dream that he quits as the Ruler of Hell and
>     reminisces (did I spell that right?) about when he was an angel.
>     I loved it when he thought he was defying God and then came to
>     realize it was all part of the great plan.  That would mean that
>     he's actually rebelling for the first time, I don't think God
>     saw that one coming.

Did you notice that Lucifer got his "Angelic" fonts back in Australia?

> 3)  The best part was Remiel's soliliqouy.  I loved it when the
>     creator tells him that he and Duma will be the new rulers of Hell
>     and that they can never again enter the gates of heaven.  Then
>     Remiel decides to rebel like Lucifer but then realizes he has no
>     choice.  Really powerful soliliquoy.  So hell is now being ruled
>     by two angels, who'd a thunk it.  Personally I'd like to see a
>     follow up story to this, maybe the demons try to kick the two
>     guys out or something.  Are Remiel and Duma powerful enough to
>     handle all the demons of Hell and keep them in check?  I'm sure
>     some of the high ranking demons could be a real bitch to handle.
In Sandman and Hellblazer, Angels are extremely powerful. Demons (Lucifer
excepted, of course) are no match for them, just like Hell is no match for
Heaven. 

Cease purpose and die.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / 	You can always try
/ Hope is the beginning of unhappiness /          jurasanen@phcu.helsinki.fi
 / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /          but I doubt that'll do any good
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc