HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Cyling and Doping
Date: 22 Dec 1992 21:18:05 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver

In article <hhgra-k@lynx.unm.edu> warsa@vesta.unm.edu (j warsa) writes:
>
>Firstly, I described this scenario since the limit of 12 mcg/ml of urine 
>was posted by someone (I think it was Les Earnest) as being an unreasonable 
>amount caffeine to ingest. I beleive it is not at all unreasonable, and as 
>evidence for this I presented Janelle's situation so we could all see that 
>even with the equivalent of 3-4 cups of coffee, someone can test positive 
>for this performance enhancing drug. I did not post in order to start a 
>a discussion regarding her guilt, innocence, motives, or fair treatment. She
>tested positive after ingesting about 300 mg of caffeine, and that's that.
>
>Secondly, I posted because I wanted to point out that a quantitative limit
>on a performance enhancing drug is somewhat arbitrary, because such a limit
>does not take into account the variability of humans to rid their bodies
>of ANY substance, such as body size, level of hydration, etc. 
>
>Finally, I have strong feelings regarding this issue, and I simply wanted 
>to point my rationale for having an all or nothing test for substances on 
>the banned list. Because caffeine, in whatever form, is a socially acceptable
>drug you, as an athlete, are allowed to have SOME in your system. This is
>also indicative of the arbitrary nature of quantitative drug testing. I can
>point this out (at the risk of starting another debate, which I hope to 
>avoid) by asking rhetorically, "Why SOME caffeine? Why not SOME steroids?"
>I suggest that if it's on the banned list, you should not be allowed any in
>your system. This appears the most simple and fair policy for drug testing. 
>
I agree with Jim's comments that all performance enhancing drugs should
be banned and there should be no quantitative limit.  Unfortunately,
there are some drugs that make this difficult to do.  Steroids are a good
example.  At this point in time, it is very difficult to detect the difference
between steroids that naturally occur in the body and those injected with
a hypodermic(or taken orally or whatever).

The same is true for EPO, which is basically a recombinant DNA manufactured
hormone that looks and feels just like the real thing.  Detection is just
about impossible until the normally healthy 29 year-old dies of a heart
attack because his blood has the cosistency of molasses.  For those of
you who need a quick primer on EPO, this drug increases the number of
red blood cells in the blood which allows more oxygen transport but
because there are more cells and less plasma, it also thickens the blood.

Ideas on ways to detect abuses of these two drugs centered on what are
normal human levels.  Like caffeine metabolism, there is a wide variance
and the acceptable levels may seem arbitrarty.

I think Jim has raised an interesting point that may not be very easy
to answer.

Bruce
From: marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: The non-assassination of President Ford
Date: 29 Dec 92 03:40:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom

In article <1992Dec28.223649.28145@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> les@sail.stanford.edu (Les Earnest) writes:
>
>such distractions but I found it hard to focus on the finish line when
>Ms. St. James was leaning over my shoulder with neckline down to there.

Ahh, so that's what happened.  I remember sitting under the bleachers
during the last race (this was a day of 'miss and out' elimination /
criteriums) when the entire remaining field crashed, Dale Stetina, Roger 
Young, Noel Dejonniker and 4 riders from the Dutch national team (did I 
forget anyone?)  I guess one of those guys was similarly distracted ;-)

>The Vail Criterium stage was always a hotly contested event because
>the affluent residents of that resort put up good prime money to

Wait a minute Les, you we're just talking about the Boulder criterium.
Methinks your memory is fading.  Not that '77 was all that long ago.  It
must have left more of an impression on me being my first international
race.  Susan St. James was at the _Boulder_ criterium though (you
didn't get her phone number by any chance?)

>stimulate the sprinters.  Ex-President Gerald Ford spent a lot of time
>there and on this occasion had agreed to be the starter of the race.
>Chief Commissaire Artie Greenberg asked me to supervise the start,
>which sounded like fun.
>As it turned out, Mr. Ford chose to stay out on the golf course that
>day, so we did not have the "honor" of meeting the man who had
>pardoned Richard Nixon.  [...]

Not that a republican would want to have anything to do with a bunch
of counterculture types like we cyclists were in those days before Greg
Lemond and the LA Olympics.

>Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934

I have always wondered Les, how Roger Young managed to talk you guys
(officials) into letting him back into the race after sitting out
nearly a dozen laps (of a miss and out no less) after his crash.  Can
you fill me in on this?

Roger Marquis
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:41:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Cold Weather hydration (was: Re: Frozen water bottles)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing

Kurt Chan writes;

> I must have missed something.  What exactly is it about drinking
> at intersections that's supposed to be particularly impressive to
> motorists?

The motorists don't give a damn.  Its the bicyclists who feel
awkward in their provocative punk-like attire with iridescent
shades and Day-Glo equipment.  There seems to be a need for them to
pull out their bottle and drink to give credence to the seriosness   
of their athletic pursuit.  After all this is a "training" ride.

This is parallel to the woman who comes to a cocktail party dressed
with so much exposure and glittering attire that she feels a need to
light up a cigarette just to be doing something other than
apparently soliciting attention (possibly sexual at that).  This
need to be doing something when looking so spectacular is not
unusual.

Now please don't all volunteer as subjects of this description and
take this as a personal attack.  I have no idea why some bicyclists
dress as garishly  as they do.  Some of them certainly play the role
of the cocktail guest excellently.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: Trying to understand Jobst (Was: Re: Cold Weather hydration...)
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:29:10 GMT

In article <BzqDrB.FBA@cs.uiuc.edu>, tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:

|> I dress bright clothing so that I am more likely to be seen by drivers.
|> This is hardly uncommon.

Me ?  I'm just trying to solicit some attention from passing women.  Tried
smoking to make my motives less obvious but taking a few slugs of Gatorade
is easier then lighting up at 25 mph !


See you on l'Alpe d'Huez tomorrow (I'll bring Turkley sandwiches) ?


David.

There are always good deals to be had on last years garishly unfashionable
multicoloured team clothing.  Bad news is, black is the IN color for France
in '93 :-(
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: What a ride...
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:39:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.161816.29547@donner.SanDiego.NCR.COM>, alant@donner.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Alan Tragarz (JD)) writes:
|> I was out on my lunchtime ride yesterday... I was riding with
|> Moreno Argentin, Flavio Guiponne (Mercatone), Heinz Imboden
|> (Sub/Montg now Mercatrone) and Armand de las Cuevas (Banesto).

|> We rode along for about 5 miles after which time
|> they pulled off at a bike shop. I had to keep going to get back to
|> work.

Bike shop trick, huh ?  Just an excuse to avoid the embarassment of
having you drop them as you tear back to work !  Same thing happened
to my girlfriend in Riva di Garda when she had the embarassing
situation of having to drop her no.1. cycling hero, Ciapucci (Carrera)
as she was late for work.  Obligingly he stopped at a lakeside cafe for
an espresso.  Now that's professionalism.


David.
From: daveh@tv.tv.tek.com (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Ridin short distances fast
Date: 23 Dec 92 16:01:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: tvnews.1992Dec23.160132.22433
Organization: Tektronix Television Products, Beaverton OR
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A75DDAF9FB023533@black.tv.tek.com>
X-Xxdate: Wed, 23 Dec 92 16:59:37 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d13

In article <1992Dec23.013709.24270@slc.com> Marc San Soucie,
marcs@slc.com writes:
>> Hi.  Some coworkers of mine and I ride about 20 miles most days at
lunch.  We
>> average maybe 20 mph and try *really* hard to beat one another.  It's
become
>> much more ruthless in the last year or so.  Obviously, I'm interested
in being
>> able to ride 20 miles as fast as I possibly can (rolling hills).  
>
>> My question is simple.  Can this be done without training 200-300
miles a week?
>
>Yes, but not by riding at 20 mph. Most of the training programs in most
of
>the books emphasize using cycles containing periods of intense training
>alternating with appropriate rest. The intense periods will need to be
at 
>speeds considerably in excess of your desired target average (and so for 
>less duration)

MarcUs reply reminds me of the perfect training: Mass-start racing! This
may not be the best time of the year for Urealj racing (although the
original poster lives in Austin, TX, I believe), but you can always
simulate a race with periodic attacks, fast pacelines, and times of
relatively slow riding. Then, when the local training crits begin in the
Spring, go to EVERY one.
Marc and I have the luxury of weekly racing (May through September) at
the local (flat) sports-car track. ItUs excellent speed work, and a very
good substitute for motor-pacing, even if you just sit on in a smaller
gear. That, coupled with the track and up to three other weekly races,
pretty much obviates the need to Utrainj in the summer.

Dave (not Dave Harvey, that weenie Cat 3) Hayes
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: les@SAIL.Stanford.edu (Les Earnest)
Subject: Re: USCF 1993 Categorization Guidelines (revised)
Reply-To: les@cs.stanford.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<21DEC92.19063778@amazon.pfc.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:34:26 GMT

Supposedly Paul Stek writes:
	   Just for fun, let's suppose I were a Cat 3 racer and
   president of the largest bike club in New England, and suppose
   I thought that the upgrade policy change made it far too
   difficult for people to upgrade from 3 to 2, and suppose
   I wanted to tell the person who thought this scheme up that
   he/she had puss between their ears, who would I address the
   letter to?

The appropriate person to address is USCF Executive Director Jerry
Lace, though the prinicipal author of the categorization guidelines is
his associate, John Tarbert and much of the input reportedly came from
the coaching staff, led by Jiri Mainus.

P.S.  As a couple of people have politely pointed out to me, some of
the supposedly six place points schedules given in the guidelines have
points to only five places, which was caused by my lazy fingers.
The six place point schedules should read: 7, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

--
Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: les@sail.stanford.edu (Les Earnest)
Subject: 1993 racing season underway in NorCal
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 01:44:05 GMT

The 1993 racing season got off to a good start in Northern California
with the umpteenth running of the Mt. San Bruno Hillclimb early January 1.
It was a drippy morning, but the weather cooperated by throttling back
to a light mist by race time.

Because of proximity to San Francisco, there were a number of Italian-
Americans around the starting area and I was initially puzzled by the
fact that they were all saying "Bonano" to each other -- that is the
name of a major Mafia family with members in the Bay Area.  I finally
figured out that it is also Italian for "Happy New Year."

Mt. San Bruno is a barren ridge that sits astride the San Francisco
Peninsula just south of the City and that has been kept in a mostly
undeveloped state through the efforts of environmentalists.  The race
course is about 6 km. long with about 300 meters of climbing, all on
pavement.  The first 4 km. of the race is gently uphill and the last
part is a killer!

There were nine racing classes with prizes to three places in each,
but only 39 riders showed up (apparently because of the preceding
rain) so nearly everyone won a prize.  A massed start of all classes
was used in recognition of the fact that drafting is of almost no
value in this race.  The first rider finished in just 16 minutes, 14
seconds, which is moving right along, and the rest straggled in over
the next 20 minutes.

My chief judge was former Olypian George Mount, who is still in good
enough shape to have beaten most of the field and would have clobbered
his masters age group.  Instead of indulging himself, however, Smiling
George chose to help his club put on the race.

While waiting for the stragglers I rediscovered the outstanding
panoramic view afforded to those who climb Mt. San Bruno -- see my
article in rec.bicycles.rides, posted with California distribution.
--
Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: warsa@vesta.unm.edu (j warsa)
Subject: Re: Cyling and Doping
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 18:45:53 GMT
Organization: Universidad de Nuevo Mexico, Alburquerque

I wrote, asking the following rhetorical question:

=> "Why SOME caffeine? Why not SOME steroids?"
=> I suggest that if it's on the banned list, you should not be allowed any in
=> your system. This appears the most simple and fair policy for drug testing. 

There IS a problem with this, as pointed out to me by Bruce Hildenbrand: there
are some substances which can appear in "natural" form, in which case you'll
have them in your system always. I suppose a test distinguishing natural
form from "artificial" form would be required, but I do not know if it is
possible, economical, etc.

In regard to another e-mail from Mr. Hildenbrand, he says that he is disturbed
by seeing people he knows who are clean getting beat by others who are not,
and that this is the source of his strong feeling regarding drug use. I 
certainly agree with this. I also believe the sport SHOULD be clean. However,
it isn't and drug testing is ruled necessary. This brings up another problem,
though, and that is that the symptoms are being treated and not the cause. 
The difficulty lies - as has been pointed out before - in the tremendous
premium placed on winning, often at any cost. The impetus exists, then, for 
some riders who are not quite at the top to try reach the top by whatever
means they feel is necessary, and this sometimes means drugs. This the 
reality; the ideal is that they reach the top through hard work and other
forms of "natural" self-improvement. Until the ideal is acheived, there 
will be drug and substance use and abuse. That is, the root of the problem 
must be attacked eventually, or it will go on in one form or another.

-- 
jim warsa
albuquerque
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: stevec@water.ca.gov (Steve Croft)
Subject: No Lottery Crit for '93
Reply-To: stevec@water.ca.gov
Organization: California Department of Water Resources
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:37:36 GMT


The Sacramento Bee reported yesterday (12/29) that the Old Sacramento Lottery
Criterium for 1993 has been canceled.  Apparently the promoter and a committee
representing merchants in the area could not come to an agreement on money.  Other
disagreements involved start times (traditionally a twilight event, the merchants
wanted to move it to daytime).

One committee member stated that the race had no benefits at all for Old Sacramento.

The Lottery Crit had its beginnings as a stage in the Coors Classic.  It has
always attracted a good field and I hope it can be resurrected somehow.

steve
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: stek@amazon.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: USCF 1993 Categorization Guidelines (revised)
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:06:37 GMT

So Les,
        Just for fun, let's suppose I were a Cat 3 racer and
president of the largest bike club in New England, and suppose
I thought that the upgrade policy change made it far too
difficult for people to upgrade from 3 to 2, and suppose
I wanted to tell the person who thought this scheme up that
he/she had puss between their ears, who would I address the
letter to?

Supposedly Paul Stek
Boston Road Club
Stek@pfc.mit.edu
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 01:19:24 GMT

adr5@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) writes:
>If I recall correctly from their ad the tires are also suppose to wear out
>much faster.  I think I'll stick with the Michelins I've been using.   
>Alex Rodriguez
Can you say Continental?  I knew you could!
-Terry
From: David Fraser
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Cold Weather hydration (was: Re: Frozen water bottles)
Date: 23 Dec 92 12:58:09 GMT
Reply-To: rec.bicycles.racing
Organization: EPFL

Jobst Brandt asks why some cyclists "dress up garishly". This is usually
to try to avoid having motorists run you down and then saying "I didn't
see you". This happens all the same.

David Fraser. 
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: les@SAIL.Stanford.edu (Les Earnest)
Subject: Re: Cycling and Doping
Reply-To: les@cs.stanford.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Dec22.231310.22978@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Dec23.220957.7631@island.COM>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:08:20 GMT

Responding to my proposal that there be a class of unrestricted
cycling competition in which riders may take any substances they wish,
Don Hermes writes:
   Offering competition unrestricted from drug use, after having controlled 
   it before, leaves the USCF open to bearing some of the responsobility
   for the after effects of the use. 
   By responsibility, I mean legal action. Huge, messy, class action suits.

This is nonsense.  Basically, all racing rules are arbitrary and
changing them or offering alternative rules does not intrinsically
incur legal liability.  I suggest that Don talk to a lawyer if he
believes otherwise.

   By offering a special class of "free" competition you would be seen simply
   as encouraging athletes to use drugs. 

Permitting riders to compete without restrictions is NOT the same as
"encouraging athletes to use drugs."  That decision is up to the
athlete, though Don and some others would like to prohibit them from
making such a decision.

   And what about those athletes at the top of the non drug use class ?
   How would they be compared to the ones who did whatever it would take,
   short of working harder ?

They would simply be in a different class.  Furthermore, riders in the
prohibited-substance-free class would have the option of competing
with the others if they wanted to know how their performance compared.

If there are any more sea lawyers or drug warriors out there, I
suggest that they focus on the ethical issues involved in competition
rather than fabricating spurious legal arguments.

--
Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Subject: Re: Cold Weather hydration (was: Re: Frozen water bottles)
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:30:42 GMT

Jobst Brandt (jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM) writes:

> It seems to me, however, that three riders going out on a 75 mile
> ride with 5000 feet of climbing drinking less than a half bottle of
> water represents valid data.

I don't see data here that helps to determine whether this experiment in 
deprivation had a beneficial or detrimental effect on the health or 
performance of the riders.


> So remember, if you can't balance in front of cars at the traffic
> light, drink water... especially before you need it, as the saying
> goes.  And it doesn't matter if it's frozen because it's the gesture
> that counts.

Are you suggesting that it is wrong to drink water when stopped at a 
traffic light?

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: ampe@cbnews.cb.att.com (john.e.ampe)
Subject: Re: Cycling and Doping
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:20:21 GMT

In article <hhgra-k@lynx.unm.edu> warsa@vesta.unm.edu (j warsa) writes:
>....  "Why SOME caffeine? Why not SOME steroids?"
>I suggest that if it's on the banned list, you should not be allowed any in
>your system. This appears the most simple and fair policy for drug testing. 

This sure is simple, Jim, but I can't see how it's fair. According to
your plan, Alexi Grewal would now be on suspension for eating a Poppy
Seed muffin.  Any racer who takes a cold or hay-fever medicine would
be suspended for using pseudo-ephedrine hydrochloride (as was the case
until last year).  Anyone who has a cup of coffee could be suspended.
I ask again: is this really what you want?  

In aswer to your question, yes I favor thresholds on all drugs --
aren't most anabolic steroids naturally occurring? -- but I imagine
thresholds are harder to implement.

If thresholds aren't fair, it's only because they allow some people
to get away with some level of cheating.  They are designed to err
on the side of conservatism.

If you feel the current thresholds are too low, you should petition
the UCI, but I don't see you claiming even that.

John_Ampe@att.com
From: kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kip Ingram)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: pedals vs. clipless
Date: 29 Dec 92 14:27:38 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX


I use Samson Stratics on my road bike.  I recently bought a mountain bike with
clips, and already find myself debating over whether to get clipless for the
mountain bike.  I *know* that I apply force to my Sampsons in directions that 
clips won't allow, because my feet keep pulling out of the clips, and that
never happened when I used clips on the road bike.  My guess would be that
if you get the clipless units you won't be sorry.

Kip Ingram
From: walden@misty.boeing.com (Bill Walden)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:11:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Who is Dave Harvey
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane BCS Support