HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Eowyn (was Re: Elf-human pairings)
Date: 15 Dec 1992 13:03:32 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1992Dec11.194139.4332@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec11.155406.7750@ra.msstate.edu> paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil) writes:
>>
>>Tell that to Eowyn.  Seems to me she killed off the head of Sauron's
>>army without the help of a man.  ( She did have a little help from a 
>>*male* hobbit though :)
>>
>
>	And she also cops out at the end and decides that she would be
>content just to marry a nobleman.  She starts off as a "battling woman," but
>she renounces that status and ends up simply being a noble female for Faramir
>to marry--  ultimately occupying the same functional role that Arwen does
>for Aragorn. 


Far from copping out, I always though that what Eowyn really wanted was to
settle down and marry.  It's just that the man she wanted to marry
(Aragorn) did not want to marry her.  Therefore, she went off to die in
battle.  After she failed to die, she transferred her affections to 
Faramir.

In any event, after the War of the Ring there was not much need for
battling women.  In fact, there was not much need for battling men
either.  Thus all of the major characters settled into peaceful roles
of one sort or another.  It was no more a cop-out for Eowyn to become
Faramir's wife then it was for Faramir to settle down as Prince of Ithillian.
From: v064lnev@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Avatar)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music)
Date: 12 Dec 92 10:14:00 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Hi Folks!

	I thoroughly enjoy listening to Led Zeppelin while I read Tolkien. 
Two songs of theirs in particular refer to Middle Earth and its characters in
the lyrics: "Battle of Evermore" (Led Zeppelin IV), and "Ramble On" (Led 
Zeppelin II).  On the whole, I find Zeppelin complements Tolkien in a most
fascinating way -- after all, Tolkien was Robert Plant's and Jimmy Page's
favorite author.
	Give it a try, I _highly_ recommend it!

                                       .
                                     .'|`.                                      
___________________________________.'-{*}-`.____________________________________
Zerxes M. Bhagalia                '----|----` INT: v064lnev@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
State University of New York   .---------------.    bhaga-z@acsu.buffalo.edu
  at Buffalo                 .'                 `.  News Director, WFFT 104.9 FM
Political Science          .'                     `. Justice, SA Judiciary (SWJ)
Computer Science         .'________MDCCLXXVI________`. Computer Consultant (UCS)
---------------------N O V U S   O R D O   S E C L O R U M----------------------
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Date: 18 Dec 1992 12:38:24 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <BzB75E.C8L@sci.kun.nl> heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas) writes:
>In <KETIL.92Dec14162659@spurv.ii.uib.no> ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde) writes:
>
>>The balrog stays put in moria, even though it's relatively safe
>>outside to join sauron or whatever.
>
Don't forget that Sauron had been back in Mordor and openly declared for
only 70-80 years at the time of LOTR, a paltry sum of years for your
average immortal being.  As the Balrog had been hiding in Khazad-Dum
for many thousands of years (at least 7 thousand, maybe more, I don't
have the appendices handy), maybe he was still thinking things over.
After all, you don't last as long as he had, and through the 
cataclysms that he had survived, by being hasty.  I'm sure Treebeard
would approve...


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: a70860@uwasa.fi (Carl Patrik Andila)
Subject: Re: Where do orcs go upon dying?
Organization: University of Vaasa, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 18:24:35 GMT

Carl F. Hostetter (carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec18.144135.16398@uwasa.fi>, a70860@uwasa.fi (Carl Patrik
: Andila) wrote:
: > 
: > Thorongil (paul@pj.tmc.edu) wrote:
: > : If when elves die they go to the halls of Mandos, and orcs are nothing
: > : more than captured elves corrupted by Melkor, then do orcs have souls?
: > : If so, then upon death do they go to the halls of Mandos?
: > 
: > 	I suppose they do, unless Morgoth grabs their souls on death, there
 [ Deleted arguments, references to Feanor & others ] 

: There is no "birthright"; they can turn to the West, as Saruman did,
: but they will likely be rejected, as Saruman was.
: 

	My mistake, sorry about that word. 

	Still, what is left dangling is where do they go? There is scant
mention of the matter in any of Tolkien's works but they do have some kind
of souls, elven souls originally. There is the added complication of the
orcs not always having accepted their lot -- they certainly were not 
content as their masters always had to use fear, both of their superiors and
the death that would be visited upon them by the free people should they
decide not to remain servents of darkness. Sarumans evil, on the other hand, 
was more or less willing. The orcs' problems stem mainly from a lousy up-
bringing. 

	It also should be noted that Frodo at least did not consider Saruman
beyond hope -- he was rejected when he sought entrance to the west without
having reverted to goodness, but had he done that he would probably have been
admitted. While it seems likely that there no orc ever would have rejected
the ways of evil -- it would not be inconceivable in view of their inherent
goodness, all of this my own interpretations of the implied aspects of 
Tolkien's works. Or did Tolkien see the way from light as a one-way only
path?

	A related matter, the souls of Saruman, Sauron, and many others
were denied entry into the land of the Valar -- but were did they go after
that? Tolkien left a hole in his reasoning here it seems. Morgoth's case 
appears to have been unique, no others were imprisoned in the same way.

-Patrik    



  
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:51:48 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <1992Dec16.233814@IASTATE.EDU>, cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
|> Thus, Eowyn, by her choice to settle down to a pastoral livelihood,
|> is giving up her chosen career in favour of a more socially
|> acceptable one. 
|> 
|> This underlying sexism may not be palatable to our current
|> social dogma but to say that it does not exist or, worse yet,
|> to say that it does not matter because it is "only a work of
|> fiction" or because Tolkien lived in a different generation than
|> we do, is utterly reprehensible.

So, are we to berate all authors before the last few years because they 
wrote "sexist" literature?  You must ALWAYS keep in mind the intended
audience of an author when you read her books and judge them at least
somewhat by the standards of the day.

Heck, JRRT was probably considered a radical back in the late 30s for
having a woman warrior like Eowyn, even if she did "settle down" at the
end.

So far most (all) of the posting about Eowyn and sexism has been by
men.  What do some of the women out there think?  Did Eowyn cop out at the
end?
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jbradfie@nyx.cs.du.edu (Julian Charles Bradfield)
Subject: Re: anonymous ftp for elvish fonts
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 23:20:43 GMT

In <1g7to5INNlpb@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca> gregu@penguin.ocgy.ubc.ca (Greg Unrau) writes:
>This post answers one question I hope and poses another. In a
>previous post, someone gave the address to obtain the Tengwar and
>Cirth fonts for TeX as an anonymous ftp to ftp to ftp.dcs.ed.ac.uk and to
>look in the directory /export/jcb/fonts/Elvish.  Well I tried that and
>was unsuccessful in using anonymous ftp. they asked for a password.
>Anybody else have this trouble? I would like to get a hold of those
>fonts.

You probably mistyped. Our ftp server accepts either ftp or
anonymous, in any mixture of cases, as an anonymous login.
If you (or anybody else) has evidence to the contrary, please send a
transcript of the FTP session to  jcb@dcs.ed.ac.uk

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: gobbo@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (Stefano Gobbo)
Subject: Re: anonymous ftp for elvish fonts
Organization: Computer Science Dep. - Milan University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:59:18 GMT

gregu@penguin.ocgy.ubc.ca (Greg Unrau) writes:

> This post answers one question I hope and poses
>another. In a previous post, someone gave the 
>address to obtain the Tengwar and Cirth fonts
>for TeX as an anonymous ftp to ftp.dcs.ed.ac.uk
>and to look in the directory  /export/jcb/fonts/Elvish.
> Well I tried that and was unsuccessful in using
>anonymous ftp. they asked for a password.
> Anybody else have this trouble? I would like
>to get a hold of those fonts.
> Help would be valued.
>__
> Greg Unrau

Well, I just gained access to that site and I found the font files in
the specified directory.

To enter the FTP site you mast log as _ftp_ and give your e-mail address
as pwd (mine was _gobbo@mars.usr.dsi.unimi.it_).

However, I`ve not checked the fonts yet, so I'm not able to tell you
if they're ok (even if I think so).

Bye

Stefano Gobbo							"Pedo Mellon A Minno"
Universita` di Milano
Italy

E-mail: gobbo@mars.usr.dsi.unimi.it

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: Origin of Orcs ( Re: Where do orcs go upon dying? )
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:32:32 GMT

> Craig Presson writes:
> > Thorongil (paul@pj.tmc.edu) wrote:
> > If when elves die they go to the halls of Mandos, and orcs are nothing
> > more than captured elves corrupted by Melkor,[...]
> 
> Origin stories for all of the races would definitely be grist for the
> FAQL. In particular, I don't think what you say here is attested; I
> remember statements about the Orcs being made _in mockery of elves_ or
> some such, in similar vein to the creation of Dwarves from stone by
> Aule. Same argument, lesser importance, for Ents>>Trolls. I'll try to
> find the textual support for this ... all/any welcome to beat me to it.

From the _Silmarillion_ :

 "   But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is 
  known of a certainty. ... Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea,
  that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere 
  Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by the slow arts of 
  cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the 
  hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom 
  they were afterwards teh bitterest foes.  For Orcs had life and 
  multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar; and naught 
  that had life of its own, nor the semblence of life, could ever Melkor 
  make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the beginning: so 
  say the wise.  And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master 
  whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery.  This it may 
  be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar. "

So though we don't know for certain that the Orcs were corrupted elves,
for the wise could be wrong, it seems most likely that they were.  The
important thing is that Melkor could not create life.  Thus orcs, dragons,
etc. are nothing more than corrupted life that Eru himself has created
and given life to.

The textural evidence for Trolls being made in mockery of Ents is given 
by Treebeard.

 "Maybe you have heard of Trolls?  They are mighty strong.  But Trolls 
  are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in 
  mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. "

BTW: If Trolls are the mockery of Ents ( as Orcs are to Elves ), then why
     do they return to stone and not wood upon being exposed to the
     light? 

Thorongil
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien: Elf+Human = children...
Date: 16 Dec 1992 01:07:00 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <lewchuk.724202159@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>>Sort of vaguely on the subject, does anyone have any theories about why
>>the elf/human marriages are always between a male human and a female elf?
>
>Perhaps because no female humans (at least in LOTR and The Hobbit) ever
>have associated in any way with elves?
>

No good, I'm afraid.  There were human females who lived with elves in 
The Silmarilian.  (I believe that Turin Turambor's sister was one such.)
And since two out of the three elf-human marriages were 1st age, that 
places them at the right place and time for a match.

There is also another mixed marriage that hasn't been mentioned here.
That is Thingol the elf to Melian the Maia.  That's another case of the
male "marrying up."  It's also worth noting that the first of the 
human-elf pairings, Beren to Luthien, was actually human/half-Maia.
(Although since all later pairings involved descendents of Beren and
Luthien, there was at least some Maia blood involved in all of them.
Of course, the ultimate in this line was the Aragorn/Arwen pairing, in
which both were descendents of all of the mixed marriages that had gone
before.  (Though, in the case of Aragorn, there had been a LOT of generations
in between.))
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:50:14 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz):

>This is something I find a little irritating--hobbits are supposed to
>be extremely family centered, but the four hobbits on the expedition
>never seem to think about their relatives.

Hmm.  I don't see it.  Frodo is an orphan.  Nevertheless, he's *always*
musing about what Bilbo might/might not be doing at this very moment.  The
cousins he feels closest to are *with* him on his trip, and after the breaking
of the Fellowship, he wonders about *them*, too.

Now, throw in the fact that all of these main hobbit characters are barely
out of their adolescence, and fighting for their lives most of the time, and
is it really that surprising that they don't spend more time worrying about
Aunt Minnie's rheumatism?

If anything, I get the distinct impression that Tolkien is, in essence, 
saying that the typical hobbit preoccupation with family matters (and the
gossip that goes with it) is a luxury that depends on their sheltered home
in the Shire.  How many of the "higher" characters make some comment about
how they spend their lives in eternal vigilance and peril so that fat hobbits
can relax in comfort (but wouldn't have it any other way, of course.)

-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
From: rfd@po.CWRU.Edu (Richard F. Drushel)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Date: 14 Dec 1992 02:22:04 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: rfd@po.CWRU.Edu (Richard F. Drushel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) says:

>Leaving that to the side, there is still the issue of Tolkien's
>ranking of his human races. Clearly the Elves are at the top of the
>heap. The closer it is to the Valar, the better or more superior the
>race. However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
>divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
>unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy. In all
>honesty, I think we have in these chacracterisations some evidence of
>an underlying racism in Tolkien's worldview. 

	The Elves are *NOT* blonde, blue-eyed wonders!  From Appendix F:
"They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark,
save in the golden house of Finarfin..."  Blue/grey are arguable; but
the Eldar were mostly dark-haired.
-- 
Richard F. Drushel ****** Ph.D. in Developmental Biology as of 4:45 PM 9211.20
rfd@po.cwru.edu ** Cleveland FreeNet ** Co-Sysop, Coleco ADAM Forum ** Go Z80!
"The bright and blinding sunlight shines so hotly on the trash-heaps that mere
undigested food and snotty Kleenex flow as rivers of milk and honey." - c.5253
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Other series?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:47:48 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <rwang.724109039@husc8>, rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang) writes:
|> Fred Saberhagen's *Book of Swords*.  There's a decently fleshed-out world
|> behind it, and Saberhagen avoids the pitfall of trying to explain
|> EVERYTHING in his books.  I prefer a little mystery; it adds to the
|> grandeur and scope of most books.

While I have enjoyed the Books of Swords the world is NOT fleshed out.  From
the vague and inconsistant geographical references and lack of ANY maps it
is obvious that Saberhagen is making it up as he goes.  Kinda of fun to read,
but definitely mind candy compared to the gourmet meal of LotR.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss)
Subject: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:44:41 GMT

Maybe someone can enlighten me about what the council of wizards'
structure is really like.  Obviously the White is #1 and the Grey
#2 ... but what about Radagast the Red?  How is all that determined?
I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
Fire"?

Jeff
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: stas@netcom.com (Stanislav Malyshev)
Subject: Re: Why all the fuss?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:00:45 GMT

In article <carl-081292102802@mac7.gsfc.nasa.gov> carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter) writes:
>> What's all the fuss about Tolkien? I mean, he was okay, but Lord
>> of the Rings is so talky, it doesn't really hold up against more
>> recent fantasy. Have any of you people read Terry Brooks's
>> "Shannarah" books? They've got everything LOTR has, and more of
>> it.
>
...
>
>Because Tolkien made people care about his vision; in 100 years,
>who's going to give a damn about Terry Brooks?
>

Hrm.. I must be ahead of the game.  I already don't give a damn about
Terry Brooks.

-- 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stan Malyshev		|    Open up the windows and let the fresh air out,
stas@soda.berkeley.edu	|    said the television to the shackled children..
stas@netcom.com		|		- King Missile
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Date: 16 Dec 1992 13:13:22 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: phlan.sw.stratus.com

In article <15DEC199223111480@juliet.caltech.edu> waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy) writes:
>BTW, regarding the translation of "nazgul":  I thought "gul" meant 
>sorcery or sorceror, as in "Morgul" and "Dol Guldur".  Sorry, I have
>no references at hand.

It's possible and arguable, but what bothers me is that nazgul is a word
in the Black Tongue, whereas the other words are in the speech of Gondor
(based on Numenorian roots).




-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sapia@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Carsten Sapia)
Subject: Re: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music)
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:45:35 GMT

Hi Tolkien-Fans,

another band that uses Tolkien texts is 'Blind Guardian'. There even is a
song called 'Lord of the Rings'. Ohters are By the gates of Moria or Gandalfs Rebirth
You might say, that the music does not fit Tolkiens works but I think that Heavy-Metal
can as well fit into Tolkiens works. Try and listens.

Bye,

Carsten

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Carsten Sapia
Email: sapia.informatik.tu-muenchen.de
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------x
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mcconnel@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a question
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 19:45:31 GMT

In article <Dec12.042617.58938@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, arsmith@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Alan Smith) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec10.203706.7493@mcs.kent.edu> mcconnel@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell) writes:
|> >In article <1992Dec10.130857.1083@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell) writes:
|> >|> >Not assuming the Host of the West to be so lax, they would have taken care
|> >|> >that none escaped. That one did, was a near catastrophy - destroying the
|> >|> >Dwarf culture of Khazad-Dum and (sort of) costing Gandalf's life.
|> >|> 
|> >|> Possibly this particular balrog chickened out and fled the field
|> >|> before the West showed up to do battle?
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> > This seems a bit far-fetched
|> 
|> Well, maybe the armies of the west weren't as thorough as they liked to believe.
|> If *I* was a Balrog and my liege lord was getting his butt kicked I'd give 
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> serious thought to sneaking out the back way and staking a claim at the
|> root of a mountain far, far away.
|> 
|> Anyway, He (or they) got out somehow, and maybe Tolkien didn't specify
|> for a reason.

 A very important difference in time here:  the difference between leaving 
 _before_ the battle and leaving _after_ it was clear that Morgoth was "getting
 his butt kicked" :-)

 Mike McConnell                     
 Dept. of Math                       
 Kent State University