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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:08:00 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?

Excerpts from christia: 10-Nov-92 Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD? dave talaga
x2752@E5SB.O (2629)
> Eric Ewanco writes:

>> Yeah, so? Being spiritually dead and having no free will are entirely
>> different things.

> Eric,

> You don't really mean this, do you?  Being spiritually dead you are
> incapable of  doing anything that is pleasing to God; so, since you have
> no "righteousness"  (life), everything you do would be considered
> "wicked" in God's eyes.  If you  are spiritually dead what are you free
> to will?  What choices do you have  besides evil?

I still don't see what this has to do with free will.  Simply because
nothing you can do can please God does not mean you don't have free will!

I see free will as defined as the (limited, due to the Fall) ability to
make moral choices, and to choose - independently of God - what one
does.  (As many noted in the 5th century, to say that man does not have
free will makes God the perpetrator of evil deeds, an impossibility.)

> Furthermore, to be dead spiritually is to be dead physically -- the last
> gasp is just a matter of time.

Yeah, but there's a lot you can choose to do before that last gasp.  I'm
not saying that what you do does you any good, just that you are not
constrained to a path God laid out to you like a train is constrained to
a railroad track.

Excerpts from christia: 10-Nov-92 Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD? dave talaga
x2752@E5SB.O (2629)

> > I find the idea of God saving
> > people against their will wholly repugnant and foreign to Scripture.

> Why do you find that so repugnant?  If God is God, let Him be God. Otherwise,
>  He must subordinate His will to ours.

I find it repugnant because if true, then God does not love us.  Parents
love their children, and have by right certain sovereignty over them,
but does it violate their sovereignty to choose not to exercise it, and
let the child exercise his/her own free will?  You are basically arguing
for example that in order for a parent to have "sovereignty" over their
children, they must forbid the children from choosing anything, and lay
out each and every step in that child's life.

Is that a loving parent?  Did God create us to move us around like toy
soldiers, or to give us the free choice to love him?  How can there be
love without free will?  Can a computer love you?  Can an animal love
you?  Are we no better than animals?

This junk about free will being a violation of God's sovereignty is a
bunch of bunk.  Man's (or angel's) exercise of free will in no way
diminishes God's sovereignty.  While God _could_ obstruct free will, of
his own will, he chooses _not_ to.  Parents  have the sovereignty to do
a lot of things, but they don't _choose_ to do all of them.

> Under those circumstances He is can no  longer act as God, but must
> "fret" over people while hoping for the best.

Hey, that means God loves us!  Parents will often choose granting their
children free choice and then knowing they will worry rather than
declaring by fiat what will be done and obstructing their children's
freedom to act.

> With  such constraints, how could he guarantee the events leading up to the
>  crucifiction, let alone the efficacy of it (what good's a party if nobody
>  comes?).  Isn't that is the ultimate problem with "free" will?

Someone once said that diplomacy is the art of letting someone else have
your way.  I think God is a master diplomat.  He tweaks the variables
just enough when he absolutely needs to in order to get people to do
what he wants of their own free will.  But never let someone say that
God fixes absolutely everything.  Simply because the Crucifixion had to
be accomplished does not mean that the Holocaust had to be.  How many
times did God change the course of history in the Old Testament because
someone interceded for the Israelites?

> On the other hand, if you say that we have a limited ability to
> excersize our  will, I would concurr; but, in such a case, who sets the
> limits?  Even in a limited "free" will state, I don't see how that could
> extend to a choice of  masters.

Never let it be said that we have enough free will to choose God without
His grace!  I agree that we have limited ability to exercise our free
will.

>  Our sin Master would never allow us our freedom unless one who is
> greater than him forced the issue; for that matter, the sin Master would
> never allow such an enemy near his subjects unless constrained to do so.

Right -- that's where the grace of God comes in.  I think our free will
is affected by supernatural "pulls."  Just as there is grace from God,
maybe there is antigrace from Satan.  Remember that even Satan is
constrained by God, however, and can do only what God permits him to do.

> With all due respect, Eric, a final question (please, this is not a
> slam, or a  inference that you are some kind of false "prophet"):  What
> is the difference  between your "free will" and Michael Million's "free
> will?"

I've not been paying attention to Mike Million's concept of free will.
Frankly I doubt we have the same definitions of the same words, so what
he says and what I say cannot be directly compared with accuracy.

> > "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and
> > pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear
> > from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."  (2
> > Chron 7:14)

> "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore
> with  great patience the objects of his wrath -- prepared for
> destruction?  What if  he did this to make the riches of his glory known
> to the objects of his mercy  -- even us, whom he also called, not only
> from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

> Romans 9:22-24

Scripture also says that it is God's will that none perish, but all be
brought to repentance.  God does not predestine anyone to be condemned.

Eric
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