From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: israel vs. the world
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Distribution: talk
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:43:26 GMT

"wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>  writes:

#To: Danny Keren
 
## I have read Leibowitz, I have heard Leibowitz, I have talked
## with Leibowitz.
 
# And Danny, you are no Leibowitz. <g>

Danny wipes a solitary tear (compliments to Brendan McKay) :-)

## Undoubtedly, he is a very unique person who posseses
## extraordinary gifts. He is also a person who takes very
## extreme opinions on various issues, and tends to abstract
## situations into absurd black vs. white confrontations.
# 
# This is not very substantive criticism, Danny. Your description
# bears no resemblance to the Harvard University Press book I just
# read.

Well, that is what I think. Also, let me elaborate a little more.
Nearly all of my friends is Israel are liberals; most of them
vote for the MERETZ party; many of them have M.Sc and Ph.d
degrees. And, believe it or not, most of them don't take
Leibowitz seriously. True, he always gives a good show, and
sprinkles it with foul language, rage and fury, but, again, he
is a very extreme person which stereotypes everything into
oversimplified black vs. white situations and reaches wrong
conclusions. It is the disease of many great intellectuals - 
they think the world behaves according to what they write
in their books. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy
towards Leibowitz, and personally he is a nice fellow; but he
was a much greater figure to me when I was in highschool than
he is now, atleast in contemporary affairs. That he is a great
thinker and a great philosopher there is no doubt, IMHO.

Naturaly, you can close any debate with "I read so and so in
so and so's book". There are many books around, and many
people around, and all have different opinions.

I find it very hard to debate with you. Your technique consists
of copying various sections from books, and regarding them
as the ultimate God-given truth. You have a very narrow
point of view, and hardly know anything about Israel, of
which you write so much. You dismiss everyone who answers
you as a "Jewish terrorist", an "emotional supporter of
Israel", etc. You make comments which leave me stunned, like
when you described Israel as a "Marxist state" (!?!?). You
lash at Israel for having no Libetarian movement, as if
anyone cares about this at all. You seem to have an incredible
capability for twisting every issue into the small, distorted
view you see in your periscope.
 
# You know what I find amazing, Danny? There is always a good deal
# of anxiety in the Jewish community, and understandably so, to
# read threats in the environment, often when they are not really
# there.
# 
# But now when Jews have a really monster threat in front of them,
# many of them are clueless.

I don't think they are clueless. I think they have a different
set of priorities, and don't necessarily determine what action
to take by what the world reaction to it would be. Sometimes,
of course, they make errors.

Let's face it, the Jews have learned that they cannot trust
the world, and they learned it in a very painful way, during
WW2. Countries didn't open their gates to Jews, and some that
escaped were sent back to the gas chambers. When the allies
were flattaning Europe from the air, they couldn't spare a
few planes to destroy Auschwitz. This left a very deep scar.
Admittedly, it has also made Israel behave in a manner which
many Americans would perceive as ungrateful, and I can 
understand them, just as I understand the Israeli side. BTW,
I make a strong distictions between the US (which I hold in
a very great respect) and the "Democratic West" (i.e. Europe)
which can collectively kiss my ass (ok, not all of Europe, some
small countries there I am very fond of).

# If the basic bond of respect and friendship between the U.S. and
# Israel, and the democratic West and Israel, snaps, it is not
# likely to repaired again in the lifetime of this planet. The
# consequences of such a break would be quite severe for Israel.

When someone keeps making these kind of apocalyptic prophecies
like you do, I have a strong feeling that he can't wait for 
them to be fulfilled. Wish to comment? 
 
# Do you really think you have a handle on what non-Jewish opinion
# elites in the West are secretly feeling and thinking about Israel
# these days?

Well, after reading you so much, I certainly do :-).

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast