Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Daniel's Prophecy and the 360 day year (was Re: Length of years)
From: <RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 10:44:39 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Rohm and Haas Company

This is in response to Mark Towfiq's assertion that Daniel 8:14 is fulfilled
through Mirza Muhammad Shirazi, a.k.a. Bab, who appeared in 1844 C.E.:
I would simply request Mark and any other Bahais to carefully read the
chapter 7 & 8 of Daniel before making such unfounded claims of prophecy-
fulfillment through Bab. Daniel's vision of four beasts was partly
explained by the Angel Gabriel: the first being the Babylonian empire
under Nebuchadnezzar, the second - the Medo-Persian empire, established
by Emperor Cyrus the great, the third - the Greek empire, established
by Alexander the great. The fourth beast is identified as the Roman
empire, which came at the expense of the third, after the death of
Alexander when his generals broke the empire into four parts (and even-
tually two powerful empires - of Selucids and Tolemies - emerged). This
continued until Constantine the great unified the empire once more prior
to 325 C.E. (the year when the Nicaean Council was held under his
presidency). It was during his time, that the pagan Trinitarian creed of
the Pauline/Trinitarian christians was accepted as the only version of
christianity, much in contrast to the belief of Judeo-christians, and
the Arians, in particular. It was during his time, by a decree, that
all other books containing the writings about Jesus (if there was such
a *historical* personality) was banned, and the only the ones to survive
were the ones which now form the christian canon of NT. Some historians,
esp. Biblical historians, consider Constantine the great to be the little
horn (Dan. 8:9) through whom the unfortunate events of suppressing the
truth was stamped (see also Dan. 8:24-25) on the people. I am also aware
of the fact that there is no unanimity in this regard among the many
scholars, some contending that he was Titus, and yet others that he was
Nero.

In any case, if there is any truth in the prophecies (esp. Dan. 8:14), one
must count the 2300 days (or years) from the time of the beast represented
by the *little horn*. (I am sure that the identity does not have to be
restricted to a single person, e.g., Constantine the great, or Nero, or
Titus, but the empire - e.g., the Roman emprire culminating from them can
also be considered as representing the "little horn.") And this is clearly
stated in the verses previous to Dan. 8:14, i.e., Dan. 8:9-13. One cannot
ignore these verses where it says that the 'daily sacrifice was taken away'
by the 'little horn' and the 'place of sanctuary' cast down (either really
or metaphorically) by his order (Dan. 8:11). The saint (in the vision of
Dan. 8:13) states that such a process was to continue for 2300 days (whatever
the term 'days' here mean). It is, therefore, quite obvious that the day (or
year)- counting for the 2300 'days', cannot sensibly be started from the
Artaxerxes's reign (457 B.C.E), simply because nether the Temple was again
desolated, nor the daily sacrifice was taken away during his time (and surely
not in 457 B.C.E). The counting (if at all) ought to have started during the
reign of the *little horn* (whoever he was). And if one were to believe in the
sequence of events as laid down by Daniel in this chapter, such an event
(leading to the reign of little horn) was to come after the other three/four
previous events.  As such, simple logic would dictate that the counting
cannot have begun with Artaxerxes's reign in 457 B.C.E, since he even
appeared before the third beast - i.e., Alexander the great (356-323 B.C.E).

In the above, I have shown that Bab cannot be the fulfillment of Dan. 8:14,
if one were to accept the logic that one day is equal to one year (as suggested
by Vijay and other christians). My conclusion is, one cannot randomly take
any year to prove the fulfillment of a certain prophecy in any scripture
through either Jesus or Bab or anyone else. There has to be a valid reason
for such a selection of year(s). I am yet awaiting christian explanation for
Dan. 8:14. Good luck with your mathematics.

----
H. Siddiqui.
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:27314 talk.origins:16596