From: ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: Re: Please don't claim what I haven't said (was Re: Why Macedonia - Part I - 1), 2) and 3)
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:41:45 GMT
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO

In article: <7040@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes (answering to me):


>In article <1992Dec11.220357.22591@wuecl.wustl.edu> ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis) writes:
>
>> Anyway, our treatment of the bulgarians, esp. 
>
>You didnt treat Bulgarians neither I terated Greeks so I'm not a big fan of
>such statements.

For God's sake Luben, let's not be so easily insulted and irritable!
 If the choice of the
above word was poor, I'm sorry! Heavens, you should know my attitude/style
by now...

>
>>during the Metaxas' time, is a matter of disgrace and shame for us.
>>But, please don't tell me one word regarding the Bulgarian behavior
>>during the WW2 axis occupation of N. Greece: it was a true disgrace as well!
>
>I never said. I only stated that (alas) it's very hard for me to find
>objective sources on the matter. I don't see any reason why soldiers, etc
>cant' committ attrocities. The problem is the scale and the reasons - i.e.
>were these orders, or was it local initiatives. As a matter of fact, there
>are so many examples when Bulgarians killed/persecuted Bulgarians, I'm sure
>the same is for Greeks. So what? And if it's a local matter is one thing,
>if it is official run policy (like Hitlers camps for the Jews, etc)  -quite
>different. It';s aslo different if you can quote that the Bulgarian King
>ordered killings, etc, or the local captain did it.


Yes and no, if you want to talk about it. 
The bulgarian occupation army left terrible memories of brutality
- I have also personally talked to older greeks from E. Macedonia; say, like
the German army did (as well) and like the Italian army DID NOT - the
comparison allowing for the generalization. Who ordered what, what exactly
is represented, is a matter of discussion. Now you can tell me that you also
know of the greeks/greek army being terribly brutal during some earlier
encounter with bulgarians. That's fine... 

>
>>About proportions of Macedonian populations, division, etc. 
>>
>...
>> - I have also seen a british(?) ethnological map of around
>>that time;
>
>Can you tell me which one? There are many of them.

I saw it, I think, years and years ago in a greek Encyclopedia (I'll have
to go home to locate it!). It had painted
the Balkans with different colours according to nationality; what is today
greek Macedonia was mostly painted with the "greek" colour, apart from 
several "bulg." spots in the "greek" region and the north of the area,
which was all painted "bulgarian". It was published in Europe, in
Britain I believe, in the
time preceding the Balkan wars. Now, you may tell me that it was selected
by the greek book because it was favorable. Apparently you have much more
information. Please see below.

>
>> and I am only speaking about today's greek Macedonia: the
>>Bulgarians were NOT  a majority there then.
>
>According to most of the maps - they were. I'd be happy to present you a
>list of all ethnic maps from that time, if you insist. Bulgarians WERE a
>majority there apart from the Aegean coast where the Greeks were majority.
>And I also have access to almost all statistics - I know Amadore Virgilli
>as well :-)
>

 Luben, you have much more interest, knowledge, information, and patience
than me in the subject. All I can tell you is that I remember a 
list of, mostly Ottoman, statistics
(among which that of Hilmi Pasha(?)) that I ran through when I was reading
about the subject. They reported the Muslims to be the majority, followed
by the Greeks and then by Bulgarians, in the villayets of Thessaloniki and
Monastir. I saw several such statistics being repeated on the net earlier,
and many, incl. yourself arguing that not all "greeks" were greeks - that's
changing the subject however, isn't it? I am sorry that I don't have the
patience to go back, locate sources and continue the argument, including
discussion about the definition of "greekness". If you wish, I will take
your word for the above issue as well. You may indeed be right.
 
>>Please understand that other people in W.Europe have - hopefully -
>>long before gone through this particular stage that has resulted in
>>this wave of nationalism and claims in E. Europe. 
>
>Well, Germany had its nationalism only 50 years ago. And what I see from
>some reports from France, and what I was told exists in Austria, does not
>make the "West" that rosy flower you think it is. But this is by no means
>an excuse that we must not fight towards chauvinism on the Balkans. I don't
>like nationalists as much as I don't like people with no care about their
>nation and fatherland. Maybe the first are more dangerous but alas, for
>some countries, the fabricated history lead to feelings for inferioity of
>your own people, which is rather sad :-(
>

Completely disagree here. There are groups in the western countries that
are radical and in some cases, like, probably, in Germany, represent something
rotten about their educational system. The west is no flower either, but no
significant part of the population could care less about strategic mistakes
of the past that lead to loss of territories, what belonged to whom some
time ago, etc. Nobody gives a dime, and nobody 
(well, almost nobody, as I said, I am talking about the prevailing attitude)
is talking about those things, whether they are relevant today or not. And,
I hope and believe, that nobody would care to sacrifice their good life and
well being to go to war to "liberate historic territories" no matter how
"important to their history" they have been, because they
do-not-care. I truly hope this is the same for the majority of the greeks
(knock on wood!) as this is my basic experience. I remember a poll in the
West revealing that in most countries the majority would avoid fighting
in a war no-matter-what (whether being attacked or attacking!). An extreme
perhaps, but see the principle... 
Now, the same may be true for the bulgarians (while is NOT true for other
E. European countries), as you suggest. That's great,
and I wish the same would be true for any nation Greece has borders with...

Best regards,
Labros
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria