From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Subject: Re: matthew's and Jim's views of free will
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:23:05 GMT

In article <zlsiida.1026@fs1.mcc.ac.uk> zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd) writes:
>From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
>Subject: matthew's and Jim's views of free will
>Date: 23 Jul 92 09:03:07 GMT

>matthew seemed to say he has free will even if somebody else can predict his 
>actions, as long as they don't tell him they've made the prediction.
>I'm not keen on that...
>First I'd like to dump the word 'prediction' - it might imply 'probably 
>accurate guess' to some people.
>Then I'd like to dump the person who makes this prediction - because what I'
>m interested in is:
>Are your actions predetermined by the laws of physics as applied to the 
>biology of humans (in particular their brains and hence minds)?  If they are 
>then you have no free will, whatever it actually feels like to you.

>Jim seemed to be saying that this is the case, though he says 'free will' is 
>a meaningless concept.  I guess that makes him a 'strong determinist'.
>As he doesn't like the term 'free will', let me ask again in slightly 
>different terms, just to check I've read him right:
>Do we ever have a totally unconstrained choice of actions?  eg.  When we 
>ponder a choice of 2 actions, are we really choosing or is the choice and 
>the exact path of our pondering on the choice totally predetermined?

>If Jim's right, then our path through life is a one way single lane road 
>with no junctions, and whether or not we enjoy the scenery or hate it is 
>also totally predetermined.  In fact, this posting was already predicted by 
>the configuration of the Big Bang.  We're reduced to a spark of 
>consciousness trapped in a vehicle we can't control.  Even leaving by 
>suicide wouldn't actually be our own choice.

>I don't want this to be true.
>I'd like somebody to tell me it isn't.
>Without invoking God in any form, because the only evidence of God 
>acceptable to me is direct experience of His presence (if you can provide me 
>with that, drop by immediately!)

>+--Great Quotes of our Time-------------------------------------------+
>|        You should never have a hobby that eats                      |
>+--------------------------------------Amarillo Slim Preston----------+          
>|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England  (44)061-275-6033   |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
 
The question of free will, as it is discussed today anyway, is not whether 
people have 'free will', (the term 'free will' is used only out of 
respect for philosophical tradition) but whether the theory of determinism 
is compatible with the common sense belief that we are responsible for our 
actions. Determinism is the view that the past determines a unique (only one 
possible) future. I don't think this can be reconciled with our common 
belief in our responsibility for our own actions. 

I intend this posting to be a kind of prolegomena to future debate on free 
will, if there is any. Isn't there a free will or freedom room somewhere on 
the net? If I can find it, I'll go into my arguments for my Incompatibilism 
there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth Bell                                    Welcome to Mind Wars
Ericsson Network Systems, Inc                   You can force any entertainment
P.O. Box 833875                                 on a people except the consistent
Richardson, TX 75083-3875                       pursuit of a topic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------