Newsgroups: misc.kids


In article <1992Nov05.202538.899715@locus.com>
judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
 
>There has been some discussion about not treating our children differently
>than we would treat other adults and I must say that this concept terrifies
>me.

This was said in the context of discussing discipline and spanking in
particular.

I think adult relationships have a lot of variety.  Some relationships are
very superficial and, yes, you would throw the relationship away if it was
not just what you wanted.  Other relationships are based on deeper involvement
and I, at least, would NOT be inclined to throw them away; rather I would work
to "fix" the relationship or at least to set bounds in which the relationship
could continue.  I think there is a lot to be said for treating a child in
many ways we would an adult with which we have a very significant, involved,
emotional relationship.

>If my best friend consistently took my jewelry and lost it, you'd bet she
>wouldn't remain my best friend any longer.  However, my son will always be
>my son.

If I truely valued that friend, I would be inclined to treat her as I ideally
would my daughter: I would NOT spank the friend or punish her; I would not
TELL her what SHE had to do.  I would tell her how I feel about the jewelry
(maybe even letting her see how hurt I was at the lose of the jewelry - like
crying over it) and then I would not allow her to borrow/get at the jewelry
again (thus I would control my behavior and property).  If she was hurt by
my refusal to let her have the jewelry, I would listen and talk with her, but
in the end that would be HER problem to deal with her feelings.  She would
have to understand that I could value her as a friend at the same time that
I valued my jewelry; that her actions in loosing my jewelry have consequences
of stopping her access to that jewelry.

Of course with the friend I would not actually take responsibility for
"teaching" her; it would be her responsibility to learn or not.  However, I
could still be respectful and friendly with her; I would just protect myself
from getting hurt.  With my daughter I would have some responsibility for
"teaching" her.  I would do this by seeing that she understood the lessons.
This might be done by discussions with the child.  With a friend I would just
cry and refuse to lend her jewelry again.  She would have to draw her own
conclusions; unless she asked for my advise/comments, then I would tell her.

>If my husband told me I had a big butt and that he'd rather spend the night
>with someone else than home with me, I'd be in divorce court and he wouldn't
>be my husband any longer.  But my son will always be my son.

This is a little more difficult.  An analog of this situation DID happen to
me.  But I did not just walk out to divorce court.  I talk to him and worked
on the situation for 3 years.  Only when it became clear that there was an
irreconsilable breakdown in the connection between us, did I leave.  The same
could be said for my daughter.  She is her own person and I cannot control her
feelings/actions.  There could come a day when we in essence "part" (like if
she really took up drugs - I would try my best to help her, but she may not
want to be helped.  Then I would still talk with her and visit her but I
would not longer support her or let her live in my house).  I would attempt to
remain friends, as I have with my ex-husband.  We can be civil and supportive
of each other even when we can no longer remain married.

>Children do not treat us as other adults do.  We must tolerate far more
>impertinence, insensitivity, abuse, and sometimes down right cruelty.  And
>we must NOT abandon them when they don't behave the way we want them to.

I agree with what you say, but do NOT draw the conclusion that we should
return impertinence, insensitivity, abuse and sometimes down right cruelty
to our children.  We can help them understand the affect of their behavior
and we can protect our selves from the consequences.  We can do this while
still respecting their individuality and personhood.  They WILL have ideas
that differ from ours.  In my house I have a right to set reasonable rules
with respect to myself and my property, but I don't have a right to tell my
daughter what kind of person she must be.

>The relationship is different because it is not a peer to peer relationship.
>The relationship is different because we parents have the responsibility for
>having brought these children into this world and therefore must train them
>and stick by them.  After all, I imagine most of you wouldn't put your
>best friend or husband in a time-out or take away their cars, computers,
>TV's, and stereos either.
>
>My mother once told me that she did not have to condone my behavior but she
>would always love me.  "If you murder someone and are in jail, I will not
>condone the murder.  But I will be there every visitors day."  This is the
>moral obligation of a parent.  It is not the same obligation of a friend or
>a spouse.  It is far more sacred bond.  Unfortunately for the children of
>this world, there are those who do not abide by it.

I feel that it is NOT the moral obligation of a parent; sometimes a child
just goes their own way and it would be personally distructive to continue the
relationship.  In this situation I feel it is perfectly reasonable for a
parent to just give up.  Of course, I for me this would be the extreme end of
a lot of time and work.  And it would be primarily determined by my daughter;
when SHE clearly indicates that she does not want the relationship any more.
I cannot imagine this ever happening, but then we are not THAT disfunctional,
either personally or in relationship.

On the other hand, some relationships have the strength that I can conceive of
acting as you discribed for a friend or a spouse.  You talk about "sacred bond"
but, IMHO ....

  ... my notes server is going down!!  It is a good time to shut up!

Karla Perdue                 The opinions expressed are strictly my
Mountain View, CA            own and not those of Hewlett-Packard.