Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian

In Article: 13053 of soc.culture.iranian, seyyed@wuee1.wustl.edu (Seyyed Mahdavian) writes:




>In article <28600013@hplred.HP.COM> moussavi@hplred.HP.COM (Farshid Moussavi) wr
>ites:
>
>>Excuse me, but Zafar first used the word "dumb shit" and called Mahin
>>"stupid".  So your own teachings should allow Mahin to show Zafar
>>disrespect.
>
>Zafar didn't actually begin. There was another insulting article by Mahin
>prior to that one. However, I do not agree with what Zafar did, though I
>can understand that he was upset.
>

If Mahin actually insulted the entire religion and God, she therefore
insulted a blanket portion of the population and used poor judgement.
But from what I have read, she never resorted to name calling or directly
insulting God, but rather she questioned the ratinale of Islam (or at least
what is called Islam in today's Iran) in ENFORCING Islamic dress on all
women in society, including those who don't practice Islam.  I know
you think this is correct, but you must realize there are people 
and more specifically women who do not agree with you, and it is possible 
to co-exist with these people without forcing them to take on your 
ways.  Imageine if the US authorities decreed that you absolutely MUST
wear an earring, a leather jacket, and have a punk hairstyle because
this is the correct way to look.  You would feel the same way, and 
probably would not live here very long, and leave.  Now when they do this
to you in your own country, it is even worse.  I don't
agree with Mahin insulting an entire religion, but in this respect
I understand her frustration, and sincerely hope that you do too.
What she has seen from religion was insulting to her, and you must
realize that millions of Iranian women are in a similar situation.  Is
this what an Islamic society should be like? Millions of alienated
men and women? 

>>            But Mahin has shown Zafar much more respect than you have
>>shown her.  She never called anyone names, whereas you called her stupid
>>and told her to shut up.


>Mahin insulted "God" (and it's not her first time). Can you see the difference?
>I am sure you can't.

No, only you can see everything.  Did she actually call God names or directly
attack God?  She just questioned the validity of a ruling that she disagreed
with, and is disrespectful to women, and happens to be carried out in 
God's name.

>Yes I called her stupid, and I don't think that I insulted her. It's really
>the truth and I honestly regret that. If I told her "you are a pig", that
>would be an insult (to the pig of course), because she is not really a pig.

Are you really sure that you haven't insulted her??  Would you feel the same
way if someone says the same thing to you?  

>Yes I also asked her to shut up because with her level of intelligence,
	   ^^^^^^^^^^^
>if I asked her to remain silent in a more gentle fashion, she wouldn't have
>understood. It's in "her" benefit to remain silent.

You didn't "ask" her.  You said "Just shut up."  Do you think she understands
now?  I think and hope that she will keep posting, just as I hope you
will.  And I don't think it is anyone's benefit for her to remain silent
(maybe your ego, but that's it).

>>            Your mentality is pathetic, and unfortunately the
>likes of you rule Iran.  The likes of you are a disgrace to our country,
>>Islam, and all humanity.  I am ashamed of people like you coming from
>>our country, and you should be too!
>
>fine, fine ...
>

shame, shame...


>>Too bad you live now. 50 years ago the Gestapo had many openings for
>>people like you.  Even your own prophet says that all people are
>>equal like the teeth of a comb.  Or maybe your comb is different
>>or has broken teeth?
>
>The Prophet(s) said: "ennA akramakom end-allah atghAkom". A poor
>translation could be: "Surely the dearest of you people to God, is
>tho most virtuous one". So there *is* a difference between people.

Certainly, there are good people and bad people.  But everybody has the same 
rights!  Even if you think you are more virtuous, you certainly don't deserve 
more rights just because you practice a certain religion.  For example,
do muslims have the right to enslave non-believers?  If you are Muslim, I 
respect that.  But if you tell me you are superior to others, you definitely 
need a lesson in being humble.  (After all, we are so small in the
grand scheme of things.)  All humans are created equal!

>
>>                     YOU think that your religion is the rightest.
>
>It's not that I imagine something. God himself says so several times
>in Qur'an. Now tell me, who knows better what is right and what is
>wrong? Who gave you the ability to distinguish between right and
>wrong?

I didn't say you are imagining, I said you THINK that ....  In the same
light, you THINK and BELIEVE that "God himself says so several .... "
Some jews say Israel is the promised land, and God said so, therefore
they are justified in displacing millions of Palestinians and 
persecuting them.  Are they wrong?  Whose God do I believe?  Why yours
over theirs?  People must have tolerance for other peoples views,
otherwise we will kill each other and everything else in sight.  
Do you want that?  Does God want that?  Violence is NOT the answer, my friend!


>>You have no more rights than anyone else, and you have no right to
>>impose your views on anyone else, and even to force them to respect
>>your views. Rushdie is just a writer and physically harmed no one.
>>Yet you advocate his murder.  By doing so, you made his book a best-seller.
>>Happy now?  Or maybe you get part of the proceeds? You shall
>>not tolerate this or you shall not tolerate that ...  WHY should we
>>tolerate your views that you are better than everyone else??  It is people
>>like you that makes atheism flourish!
>
>So you think that only "physically" harming people is a crime?! I wonder
>how can you call your self an "intellectual". Please just "think" about

Read what I wrote.  Did I say that "physically harming people" is the only 
type of crime? I just said that Rushdie did not physically harm anyone,
and you say his punishment is death! Why not condemn him, or express
outrage, or write another book against him, or start a letter writing 
campaign?  Why must you use violence, and firebomb bookstores, and threaten
this man with death?

Also, did I ever say I am intellectual?  Hmmmm......

>the following questions (you don't need to answer, I am sure you need
>a lot of time to get a consistent philosophy for yourself).

Yes, I DO need to answer.  You seem very sure of a lot of things.  


>1) Why is that in a country like England, it is "against the law" for
>   someone to insult christianity in public? Anyone who does so, will
>   be prosecuted and punished.

Excellent point.  This law is dumb, because insults against anybody
are all the same, they should be either banned or allowed completely, 
not just banned for Christianity.  This preferential law is left over from 
the middle ages, when English gov't was dominated by the religious 
institution, kind of like in present day Iran, don't you think?

Nonetheless, such a person's punishment is NOT DEATH!

>2) Why is that in the United State, someone in the army who refuses to
>  go to the Gulf war, i.e. refuses to "kill" or to cooperate in killing,
>   is arrested and punished?

Because, unlike Iran, the United States has a completely VOLUNTARY military
service, and when somebody commits to being in the army, one has
accepted to be a soldier, and part of being a soldier is killing the enemies
of your country in the event of war.  As an Iranian, you should have seen this.
Nonetheless, there are provisions for conscientious objectors, who if they have
moral and/or conscientious objenctions against the war, can be heard
in a special panel and become exempt from fighting.

Nonetheless, such a person's punishment is NOT DEATH!

>3) Why is that a General in the US army who talked too much and gave
>   some information to the general audience is denounced and punished?

Because giving out military secrets could sacrifice the lives/well-being 
of a countries' soldiers, and cannot be tolerated, especially in a time
of crisis/war.

Nonetheless, such a person's punishment is NOT DEATH!



Salman Rushdie wrote a book (insulting, yes), and you claim that his 
punishment is DEATH!

>
>If you really are open minded and have a minimum of intelligence, it
>shouldn't be hard to see that there is no such thing as "absolute
>freedom of speech".
>

You sure like to question people's intelligence!!  Is this part of  
Muslim superiority?  Try questioning their
ideas instead.  No there is no such thing as "absolute free speech",
but there IS such a thing as "free speech", and RELATIVELY speaking,
there isn't much of that in Iran today (compared to the rest of the 
world). This net is NOT subject to the rules of the Islamic Republic
of Iran.

I don't defend people like Salman Rushdie, or Mahin for that matter.
People have a right to express their ideas.  I agree, if they insult
a group of people during this process, they have used poor judgement,
and they should expect a few insults back.  After all, with freedom comes
responsibility.  But they DO have the right 
to express themselves, and should not  be silenced using violence or 
intimidation.  I believe Mahin feels genuinely upset at the rules 
regarding women in the Islam practiced in Iran, and that she feels this 
is unfair and treats women unfairly and unequally. The fact is, she is 
an Iranian too, and has a right to live there, and nobody has been able to
justify to her why a woman should cover herself because of men's biological
urges?.

By the way, when you say that the majority of the people in Iran are practicing
Muslims and support Hijab, do you have any statistics to show this?
Remember to have valid statistics in the first place, a free atmosphere
must exist where people can truly express their opinion when asked
a question.  I don't know of any polls or statistics in Iran conducted
regarding this subject recently, and I would be very interested if you could 
give us all any references regarding such statistics.  The only statistics we
have heard on this net are the tremendous number of arrests that were made
because of not conforming to Islamic Dress code.


>
>>                                             In addition, the racist guy you
>>were talking about was not just insulting Iranians, but all human
>>beings by expressing joy over the possible nuclear annihilation
>>of an entire nation.  In a world where peace and coexistence between
>>all humans are desired, this cannot be tolerated.
>
>Let it be so. Suppose he insulted all the human beings from the first one,
>to the last one. Did he "physically" harm anyone? What would happen if
>you just kept quiet? Would he really bomb the nation?

To not tolerate and answer someone's tasteless comments is different than to 
advocate that he/she be killed for making that comment, or even telling them
to shut up, etc.  Far from wishing death upon the individual who made the 
racist comments, I wish enlightenment for him, and I truly hope his knowledge 
increases and he becomes more tolerant of people different than himself, and 
that he learns to coexist peacefully, and actually start to like others.
Come to think of it, I never even told him stupid or to shut up either.
In fact, I support his right to post.

>I tell you what would happen. Someone explained it very nicely. It's just
>that you are afraid of the ever increasing tension against foreigners in
>the west countries. It's yourself that you care about; all the pleading
>for humanity is a big lie.

SO, I am a big liar, huh?
Again, you seem very sure of yourself.  I don't know how your "someone"
knows so much about me (maybe he has a lot of intelligence), but now that 
you bring it up, I must say this country has been very good to me (and you) 
for letting me in, allowing me to study at its good universities, allowing 
me to work presently, and even helping me through school.  This, all from a 
country which has no obligation to me at all.  Although I am sure their 
motivation is not all that unselfish, I am thankful to them for giving me 
these opportunities anyway, because I think it was pretty nice of them.  
Here I am allowed to live, breathe, and think as I please, and I have access 
to many Iranian culture resources (such as this one) without any ideological
restrictions whatsoever, and I am very accepted in this society.

What is worse than tension against foreigners in this country is tension
against people like myself in my own country.  Millions of us young 
Iranians left our country in whatever way we could to flee terrible
conditions, e.g. an unpopular war, an oppressive gov't and so on.
Many of us have have gone through tremendous hardship here and succeeded, 
yet our gov't was not even willing to officially
accept the fact that we are students here so we could go visit our
sick and old relatives back home, or just visit our families in general.  Our 
gov't completely ignored and abandoned us and now they have the gall
to say they might "forgive" us and let us come back.  there
is absolutely no way they will accept the way many of us think,
they will never allow us to  live freely even though we may not
subscribe to their version of Islam.  They arrest us in the street
and call us whores for showing a hair, or wearing a short sleeve
shirt, or saying something against the government. What mistreatment
greater than this?  At least here we are foreigners, why does our 
government discriminate against us in our own country??  What is 
their excuse??  We are all Iranians, and have a right to live as we
please in our own country, and think as we wish.  Muslims have no right
to impose their will on non-Muslim, non-parcticing-Muslim, or even atheist
Iranians!

>
>>                     ... , this cannot be tolerated. Neither can your
>>theories of supremacy over other religions and people, and self righteous
>>attitude.
>
>I do not need your protection Sir.
>

I never offered you my protection. I am sure that you are quite capable
of taking care of yourself since you have such a high level of intelligence.
If anyone needs protection it is our poor people from their gov't.

>>
>Seyyed.
>
Agha Javad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian