From: hsims@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Spoken Like a True ProLifer
Organization: Clark University
Date: 30 DEC 92 18:07:24 GMT

In a previous article, vengeanc@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu wrote:
>hsims@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>In a previous article, vengeanc@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu wrote:
>>>hsims@vax.clarku.edu writes:
> 
>>>>Fetuses do pose a threat to members of society - the women that they are 
>>>>living inside of.  Every pregnant woman faces a risk of death that is greater 
>>>>than 0.00.
> 
>>>So do people driving cars.  The issue is whether someone has demonstrated
>>>through an ACTION they have willingly undertaken that they are a LARGE
>>>threat.  This is a very weak argument you present here.
> 
>>If you feel that the risk involved with driving is too great, you have a right 
>>to stop driving.  If a woman feels that her pregnancy is posing to great a 
>>risk to her life, she has a right to have an abortion and stop being pregnant.
> 
>Do you think any of this stuff through before you post it?  I do NOT have
>the right to FORCE YOU to stop driving.  YOU might run me over when I'm walking
>down the street.  YOU might slam your care into my kitchen when I'm eating
>dinner.  YOU might kill my mother.  Hacking a baby into pieces amounts to the
>same thing.  The baby has not chosen A. to be conceived .. or B. to be
>murdered.  Your forcing that baby to DIE means you have enforced your will
>upon it (much the same as my forcing you not to drive).

True, you do not have a right to force me to stop driving.  Did I say you did? 
I'm still not sure why you brought up the driving analogy.  But anyways, 
you also do not have a right to force me to stay pregnant against my will.  
You do not have a right to force me to use my body to support a fetus.  You 
are not forced by law to donate bone marrow or kidneys to save other people's 
lives.  Why should pregnant women have less rights than you?

>Why do you insist on punishing the innocent for the crimes of the uncaring
                                                     ^^^^^^
>or irresponsible?  Wouldn't this be the same if I suddenly decided that
>you are an undue burden to your mother, or to society, and brutally cut
>you apart?  I'll answer my own question.. yes.

Getting pregnant is not a crime.  Consenting to sex is not a crime.  You 
seem to think both are crimes that women should receive a nine-month 
punishment for.  As far as your second question, if my mother thinks I'm doing 
something that is causing an undue burden on her, I can stop doing it, or we 
can seek other alternatives.  Can a fetus stop causing a burden on an 
unwilling women without being removed?  

>>>Only an idiot would hold children responsible for the stupidity and 
>>>cruelty of their parents.  If programs that help these children could be
>>>enacted that would truly be uncorruptable and beneficial to them, they would
>>>be warranted.
> 
>>Such as?
> 
>Limited term welfare in which the participants must demonstrate a willingness
>while they are sitting on their butts at home to get an education.  Full
>scholarships based on need are a dime a dozen.  If you are sitting at home,
>watching your color TV and collecting my tax money, I have a right to expect
>you to take all your free time and make something of yourself.  If you
>refuse and instead insist on being a parasite, we cut off your money, take
>your children from you, and let you fend for yourself.  

Where do we take these children to?  Our foster care system is already 
overburdened.  There aren't enough adoptive homes as it is for minority or 
disabled children. 

>>>Abortion is murder.  It's not a question of just the mother's life, but also
>>>the baby's.  The laws of this country already state that murder is wrong so
>>>in fact the state already has control over this issue.  The only problem is
>>>in making people aware of what abortion really is... cold blooded, vicious,
>>>violent, painful MURDER.  
> 
>>You may think abortion is murder, but the laws of the U.S. do not.  Abortion 
>>happens to be perfectly legal.  But just out of curiousity, what kind of 
>>punishment do you think women who have abortions should recieve?
> 
>Abortion is murder.  The AMA believed this for over a hundred years before
>they were taken over by you liberals.  I suppose this isn't that hard to
>understand because charging a woman for pregnancy used to be more profitiable,
>but now murdering those babies pays alot more.  

This is simply not true.  Abortions cost a few hundred dollars.  A "normal", 
uncomplicated delivery costs several thousand dollars.  Complications can 
raise the price to tens of thousands of dollars.  Childbirth is much more 
profitable for physicians.

>Don't ever kid yourself,
>we live in a capitalist society, and money creates morality.  How do the
>liberals try and get special rights for gays in Colorado?  They boycott
>the whole state (even those who voted for the legislation) to hurt them
>FINANCIALLY.  Money rules most professions.  You women who are supporting
>your right to kill babies (your right to CHOOSE), are in fact supporting
>a profession whose only goal is to get rich by exploiting you.    

"You women..."?  I'm not in favor of killing babies.  

>I don't think women who have abortions should receive any punishment at all
>other than counseling.  Women who have abortions are not malicious killers,
>they are simply women in a difficult situation seeking the easy way out.

But if abortion is murder, and women pay an abortionist to commit this act 
of murder, aren't they basically hitmen?  Why would you treat them any 
differently from, say, a person who pays a hitman to kill someone s/he 
doesn't like?

>They need to be convinced that what they have done, or are trying to do, is
>in fact the murder of an innocent life.  Only a callous jerk would propose
>we imprison them for being scared and frightened.  

This is a very condescending attitude.  Do you think ALL women who choose 
abortions are just scared little girls who are too stupid know any better?
Plenty of mature, intelligent women have had abortions for one reason or 
another.  Several of them have posted their stories here.  

>The doctors who perform abortions are murderers. Abortionists should be hung.
>Talk about being a mass murderer, John Wayne Gacy can't even come close to
>these sick bastards.  

Anti-abortion laws will result in dead women.  Why do you feel women's lives 
are less valuable than fetuses?

>Edward Simmonds- opinions are my own and are perfectly correct 


				.... Heather. 
Newsgroups: talk.abortion