From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Date: 6 Oct 92 18:20:20 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <1992Oct03.035244.20191@NeoSoft.com>, peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
> In article <6092.2ac9c038@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
>> Easier to learn? GACK! No way. There's little consistancy between
>> applications.
> 
> There is. It's a different kind of consistency. 

Oh, I see. INCONSISTANT consistency. I should have known.

> And you get better feedback.

How the heck does Windows offer "better feedback"?

>> Heck, applications can't even decide on a consistant way to stop a program,
>> at least all Mac applications have File / Quit.
> 
> ALT<SPACE> pulls up a standard menu that includes quit.

Nope. It contains CLOSE. Not Quit. Wrong again, Peter.

> None of that is part of the GUI, except the multiple monitors bit. I'm not
> talking about the underlying OS (DOS sucks, badly), but the user interface.

What EXACTLY do you find "more powerful"? 

>> Less surprising. NOT! Windows lacks consistancy between applications. Quick!
>> What do the middle and right buttons do on the Windows mouse?
> 
> What do they do on the Mac mouse? Oh, they don't have physical buttons there,

Right. So there's less confusion about what button to press.

> Both the Mac and Windows use a single-button mouse model with modifiers
> left up to the application.

Except in the Mac environment, the modifiers are defined. See the Apple HIG.

>> Better Feedback? In what way?
> 
> More consistent and reliable reaction to user command actions. 

I find the MacOS tons more consistant. 

> Closer ties between keyboard and mouse actions.

I don't see what you mean here. Perhaps you could provide an example.

>> On a Mac you can jam a diskette in the drive and the OS knows
>> you've done this.
> 
> Not a GUI issue. If you want me to defend DOS you're picking the wrong guy.

It is a user interface issue, since it is one of the actions the user can
take. You can't limit user actions to just typing and clicking.

> What arguments? I'm *suggesting* that you look at how the Windows *user
> interface* works and see how the Mac interface can be improved.

I've looked at Windows. I see very little, if anything that works better
than the Mac. I keep asking you for specific examples, but you keep
talking in vague generalities.

>> Wrong. You bring up a dialog window, and ALT <ET>, ALT <EC> and ALT <EP>
>> (Cut, Copy, and Paste, respectively) won't work.
> 
> Good point.

Ha! Gotcha.

>> Note that your message didn't even have these correct, or perhaps there's 
>> even more variance between apps than I thought.
> 
> I don't know. I'm not discussing the applications. I'm discussing the user
> interface.

Applications are very much part of the user interface.

>> No, to use shortcuts consistantly, you can't reply on ALT menu activation.
>> You have to use Shift-DEL, Control-Ins and Shift-Ins for Cut, Copy and Paste,
>> respectively. These will actually work in the dialog box.
> 
> Well, they're pretty mnemonic.

HA! 

Acutally, it's worse. MS Changed the standards. Now they are saying to use
Control-X, Control-C and Control-V. I wonder where they got the idea for
these?

>> > Quick, on the Mac, what's the keyboard shortcut for "Print Draft"?
> 
>> There's no such shortcut. You print by pressing Command-P. You select 
>> draft mode in the subsequent job dialog.
> 
> I don't want a job dialog. I just want to print something and get on with
> it (here we get back to GUI versus CLI, actually).

Then do command-P, and hit return in the Job dialog.

Windows doesn't have a "Print Draft" keyboard shortcut. The only one defined
is File / Print (gee, I wonder where they got that from?)

>> I picked a generic example -- Cut, Copy and Paste. Things that you use all
>> the time in every application (practically). Notice that you picked an 
>> obscure example. 
> 
> Well, I don't ever use cut myself, just copy and paste. So why should I
> bother remembering what the Cut mnemonic is.

You still have to remember copy and paste, and you didn't even do that.
You're trying to weasel out.

> I do a lot of "select italic font" though.

OK, what's the shortcut under Windows? (Hint: character styles are done in
a dialog)

For the Mac, it is command-I.

>> I disagree. Come back in 5 years when there's some modicum of consistancy.
> 
> That's an application issue. Seriously. 

Applications are part of the user interface. An important part, I might add.

>> > In any case, the two suits cover basically the same ground. Xerox invented
>> > most of the items Apple claimed rights to.
> 
>> If you believe that, then you believe that Apple should win the MS/HP suit.
> 
> No, I believe that neither of these suits should stand. Apple did have a
> couple of minor points that were valid but the rest of the
> Windows interface is no closer to Apple's than it is to Xeroxes. 

If you support Xerox's claim, then you have to support Apple's. There is no
middle ground.

>> UGH! I actually had the priviledge of USING a Star (back in 1983, before
>> there ever was a Mac). 
> 
> Me too. 1982.
> 
>> It wasn't better than the Mac. I'd say it was barely usable. The Help system
>> was awful. And many times there were hidden modes were you couldn't do 
>> something that wasn't obvious.
> 
> I don't generally judge an interface by the help system. 

I don't either. It was just memorably bad.

> I found the Star a lot more consistent than the Mac (for example, drag and 
> drop was universal instead of only working for the special cases of moving 
> and deleting files).

I remember trying to drag and drop something, and every time I went to put
it into the destination, I got a "?" cursor. I couldn't figure out why I
couldn't do what I wanted. And the help system was no help. 

--
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

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