From: sonic@artgate.cray.com (Curtis Swanson)
Subject: Re: Use Pattern Interrupts
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:10:20 CDT


 william@syacus.acus.oz.au (William Mason) writes:

=>In article <1992Aug6.164632.12081@walter.cray.com> sonic@artgate.cray.com  
=>(Curtis Swanson) writes:
=... everyone needs a foil.

Glad to be of service.....

> 
> Today is a better day, to all.  "Better" is, necessarily, subjective, the 
> view point of the individual(s) involved.  {credit to Edward de Bono}
> 
> I'm almost sure this will be rejected; yet, I been wrong before.  So
> here goes.
> 
> >In article <1992Aug6.164632.12081@walter.cray.com> sonic@artgate.cray.com  
> >(Curtis Swanson) writes:
> >> I think that both you and Ramesh are missing is this:  Is
> >> changing someone  without regard to their feelings the
> >> right thing to do?
> 
> I agree, as long as a person is not 'effecting' others.  And what about
> a dysfunctional mother with her children ?  The *bigER* question is, not,
> "am I right ?", but "am I valid ENOUGH ?".
> 

Hmmm.  I'm not sure I understand your difference (if any) between affect and 
effect.  Changing someone is definitely affecting them.  Maybe you meant 
affecting someone besides your target???

I'm also not sure of how you're relating the dysfunctional mother to this 
point unless you mean changing her to help her children.  If so, it's a big
situation-dependant judgement call.

> >> If you're using these techniques on someone *with their
> >> consent and desire* to help change a bad habit or image,
> >> great.  But in all your arguments/ rebuttals, only
> 
> Yes, though ... I'm more respectful of those who give an opening
> to say HOW they manipulated 'me', to achieving the result.  It is not
> always efficacious to describe the process 'in situ'.  Hovever, the
> potential for an explaination would be useful; e.g. "my address is ...".
> The thing about 'manipulation' is not technology, it is the secrecy.
> Quote time,
> 
>    "Any practice that is forbidden [or hidden, my words; wm] 
>    offers something that the system cannot successfully replace
>    with an alternative."
>       -- "Zen Without Zen Masters"
> 
> That is, it is of more value to the DO-er than the subject.  Which raises 
> the question, imo, what (perceived) value does the practitioner get from such
> subdefuge ?  The word "kudos", to me seems to be simply another synonym for
> "power".  Self examination is very important in these cases.  
>

To me, if the help is being done with full consent (this does not require full
disclosure of methods unless desired) it doesn't really matter what the 
practitioner gets out of it.  IMO, self-examination is always important, for 
everyone.
 
> >> communication is mentioned, never making sure that the
> >> goal is what the person being changed wants.  This is
> >> critical.  I will gladly help any of my friends change
> >> their lives if they want me to BUT I will never attempt to
> >> change them because I *think* that they would be better
> >> off changed, irregardless of what they think. 
> 
> This I find hard to agree with.  Yes, "buttons can be pushed".  We are still,
> as far as I know, beings of free will.  I can no more put my hands, or 
> my mind into someone-else's mind and effect a change than I can reach the 
> moon and write my name.  The agreement, implicit or explicit, of/by the 
> subject/person is imperative.  Neh, essential.
>

I have seen change wrought without consent or knowledge.  Agreement greatly
aids the process but is by no means required, which is why consent is a big
concern of mine....
 
> ramesh@veda (Ramesh Dodamani) writes:
> >On first sight it appears that the answer to this would be 'no'. First let us  
> >look at the original posting:
> >
> >	  I need some "drugs" to raise self-esteem.  Not for myself,
> >	 for a friend.  She just thinks she's ugly, fat, and
> >	 boring.. when she's far from that. How can I help her think
> >	 more of herself?  To help her get some self-esteem and
> >	 learn to love herself?  I just need some suggestions. I do
> >	 compliment her on her appearance whenever I can.. but I
> >	 need to do something more.  But what? 
> 
> Sounds like a "co-dependency" relationship to me. 

Great potential for, at least.

>                                                    Off the cuff, I admit.
> Perhaps, no cynicism intended, alt.support is a better place to canvass
> opinions.  What the original poster could ask is WHAT he's getting out of this
> relationship ?
> 
> If the answers are aultristic enough, then stage two is possible.  If he
> becomes angry by the above comment, or uncomfortable.  Then he may as
> well hit "N".  
>

Not necessarily; see above.
 
> The second worry is that the cure will not be contributory to the original
> poster's fulfillment.  "To thine own self be true" and all that drek.  Clear
> outcome(s) are an essential elsment of {change}.
> 

Yes, very.

> >Here the poster's opinion is that, his friend  thinks that she is ugly, fat,  
> >and boring. This cannot be just his imagination. When a person thinks low of  
> >herself it is apparent. In such a case would you ask her whether she wants 
> >you to change her? 
> 
> Exactly, what does she want ?  Or more succinctly, what does she want "now" ?
> And, note, the answer will change.  Time of day, mood, external/life/biology.
> Look ahead to a definable time and behavioural ... better sensory result.
> Say, six weeks ?   Sometimes, the type of "drugs", can help with the 
> diagnosis.  Often, for laymen, they can obscufate.
> 
> >Consider somebody who is dear to you, like your friend,  
> >brother,sister, wife or your children. If they have feelings as stated above,  
> >would you wait for them to come to you and ask you to change them? Wont you  
> 
> Has "she" asked, actually ?  We don't know, do we ?  The simple NLP technique
> her is to access all her representational systems, in a supportive way and
> ask her to think/consider/rumenate/see/feel/hear/learn what she wants. That
> is, what outcomes she desires.  The results will come from commitment, 
> support, and practice.
> 

Not being up on NLP techniques, I'll take your word for it.  Sounds good.

> >	What I am trying to say is that, under such circumstances, the person  
> >in question would not even be aware of his/her  mental state. In such  
> >situations it is not wrong to assume the role that we have advocated. 
>

If they are not aware of their own mental state, I would try to help them 
become aware of it.  I cannot support a general stattement that it is right or
wrong:  each situation  must be looked at individually.
 
BTW, Rameesh, the two examples you gave in later posts made me think about this
(which is why this response is late and long).  The two you brought up I would
categorize as more extreme, ie, help cannot necessarily wait too long.  I worry
more about the mild case like the original poster's situation.  There, help can
wait almost indefinitely because it is not a critical situation.  There is much
more time and leeway availiable to play with resolving this situation.  In other
situations, other constraints may apply.
 
> >Well, this discussion has certainly been fruitful(for me). Good to know about
> >the various viewpoints.
> 
> Somehow, I disagree with the last one.  Still, life IS various.
>

Why?  I look forward to different viewpoints.  They stimulate thought and help
me refine myself and my beliefs.

> Now,
>     William. :-)
> 
> _____ "Though the course may change, Rivers ~always~ reach the sea." lz _____
>  _--_|\    William Mason                 ACSnet:    william@syacus.acus.OZ
> / ACUS \   Aust Ctr UNISYS S/w           Internet:  william@syacus.acus.OZ.AU
> \_.--._/   Sydney, N.S.W,                Voice:     +61-2-390-1322

Hmmm.

Then-
--
***  Curt Swanson  ***  sonic@romulus.cray.com  ***  IOTTMCO  *********
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