From: cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 01:47:15 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: mickey.cc.utexas.edu

In article <C1Dx5u.EJs@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
>cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>>Heh. I guess that's where we differ. I -enjoy- playing interesting characters
>>who may be less than competant. And CP literature is -full- of 'em....
>I enjoy playing interesting characters who are competent. And CP literature
>is full of them too. 

Actually, I enjoy playing -both-. <shrug> 

>>Valid points. But, how many of us remember, for example, Molly's stories she
>>would tell case? For the most part, we tend to remember when Molly would rip 
>>people apart, and the fact that she had -really neat- cyberenhnacements. 
>>Weak != Interesting, and Powerful != Interesting. But in many cases, extra-
>>special abilities tend to overshadow the -character-. 
>Well, that's you and what you remember. Me, the things I remember from
>the books are the raw emotions these people felt. The thing about Molly
>that sticks out most in my mind is her knowing that she's stuck on this
>road too long, that she should have gotten off it like Case. YMMV.

Funny, that's what -I- remember as well. Unfortunately, the -average- schmoe
who read Neuromancer remembers the neato gear and the violence and the 'ooh
COOL!' stuff. 

You and I are net.gamers; we're a little bit more literate than the average
gamer (ELITISM ALERT! ELITISM ALERT! DIVE DIVE DIVE!), and catch things like
this. Most gamers still have -way- too much larval 'let's get that new +3 
sword of weasel whacking' attitude, and to me, SR just reinforces that kind
of play style. My experience tends to back that opinion up. Maybe yours 
doesn't. <shrug>

>><chuckles> Maybe so. But you can't get away with that in GURPS; gun combat is
>>naaaaaasty; I recommended each of my campaign's players have at least HT 12, 
>>just for surviveability's sake, even though we may have two fights an 
>>adventure. I've seen very few people use GURPS for heroic-style roleplaying,
>>because it doesn't cope that well with it. Unless you're -trying- get get silly
>>results (like we were in a 350-pt 'Modern Action Movie' game we did for a 
>>couple of weeks a while back), GURPS doesn't cope well with that style.
>Gun combat is no more nasty in GURPS than in any CP 2020 or SRunII. 

Well, it's -definately- deadlier than CP2020 with it's busted armor rules. I 
haven't messed with SRII, (which is why I stopped flaming the system), so I'm
not sure how deadly it is. But I can't see now it could be much nastier and
still retain the basic SRI system.....

To
>be honest, our GM's suggestion on extending our characters life - "Don't
>keep running the shadows." The longer you play, the more likely you
>are to get your ticket punched. And that's with a campaign where there
>isn't always combat, much less two gunfights a night.

<shrug> I didn't mean two gunfights a night, up there, I meant maybe two 
per story arc, each of which may last 4+ weeks worth of gaming.....

Still, the axiom you talked about above applies for -any- game; the longer you
play, the better chance yer gonna die.  

I'm still not conviced that SR is deadly enough yet. <shrug> And it's campaign
premises -still- give me the willies. 

If you want 
>"naaaaaaasty" gun combat, play with Phoenix Command rules for a night.
>Then go generate new characters, and remind yourself that GURPS ain't
>that tough.

<shudder> No -thanks-. 

-- 
    "Well, do you ever get the feeling that the Story's too damn real
                        and in the present tense?"
               Christian Wagner - cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy