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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:38:44 -0500
From:         Doris Smith <dorisann@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Melville
Comments: To: "Discussions about Literature" <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>
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> Susan,
>
> If the memory of your substitute teacher is so vivid, you must remember how
> he ruined _The Scarlet Letter_ for you. Please share the story; I've found
> that I sometimes get more valuable insights into techniques through
> resounding failures than through successes.
>
I, too, would be interested in what was done to ruin _The Scarlet Letter_
for you.
Doris
dorisann@tenet.edu
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Posted-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 13:32:04 EDT
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:32:04 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      kafka
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Wish I knew languages.  Anyway, the last few readings of Metamorphois I have
tended to read the change in form as a sudden embodiment of what he already
was, and that he trips the switch that instant when he wakes up late for
work and is so panicked--too panicked, for a self-respecting human--that
he becomes the bug he had been at least on the verge of being.  In the
dynamics of the family, he displays a lot of hypocrisy and unsavory self.
That's only one reading, and anyway I've always thought the key to it might
be found in that haunting passage where Gregor creeps to where he can hear
his sister playing the violin, and that music is referred to< i think, as
being, or being reminiscent of, "that unknown nourishment he craved."
I will have to give some thought to your proposal. Mike.
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 07:53:38 -0500
From:         "Kar Subrat" <SUBRAT@ITSICTP.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Kipling

(Please do not use my older email address : subrat@itsictp.bitnet)
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Ian:

| I have mixed emotions about Kipling.  On the one hand, what he does
| he does very well.  On the other, he is definitely limited by his times,
| which probably disqualifies him from being a great writer.

_Kim_ was an exception to Kipling's burra-sahib metier. Kim, the horse
trader and the monk were fairly accurate depictions. The _Jungle Book_,
on the other hand, was a children's tale located in India. A sort of
mix of an oriental Winnie-the-Pooh and Romulus & R. Story. It still is
one of my favourites. _Puck of P H_ cannot be an example - it has, as
you say, nothing to do with the Indian psyche per se. I would be very
surprised if Kipling had not written as he did. Writing about a country
whose heathenish soul you are enjoined by religion and ruler to save is
not the best way to get inner perspectives and insights. To see beyond
the elephants and fakirs and maharajahs, ah, that needs a great writer.

India, viewed through a Angliophile's perspective, is a very different
India. My view is that allegations of racism usually come from Western
critics of Kipling - the Indian regards the British legacy as a
precious, though ultimately unbearable, one. We still have a generation
of civil servants who recollect their British superiors with pride.
Certainly there is no hatred in India towards the race which ruled
them - there is pride, even deep respect, but certainly no animosity.
The British were thrown out of India on principle because it wasn't the
done thing to rule a country anymore when the country could rule
itself. My India is a country whose soul cannot be sketched in a
paragraph - certainly not in the simplistic terms on which Kipling
chose to.

Regarding the Briton's enthusiasm for the-sun-never-sets-in-the-British
-Empire, I prefer George Mikes (the-orientals-have-their-sex-life,
the- British-have-hot-water-bottles) to Kipling.

Subrat
Trieste, Italy
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:04:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Character of Levin.

Tim, your argument contra Levin seems to be based on the assumption that
Levin's characterization is somehow only valid if his spiritual insights
are based on analysis and thought of a certain sort . . . Why do you insist on
putting this grid upon the work, when Tolstoy does not?  Henry James said that
a writer's "donnee" should be granted him or her, but you seem to deny Tolstoy
his "given."  Your reasons for doing this seem to be based on an odd desire to
"prove" that Dostoyevsky is a much greater writer than Tolstoy.  Why can't
both of these cats be great?  Why insist on pitting them against one another?
Have you been watching the George and Saddam show a bit too long?

Sincerely,
Michael McDonald
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Posted-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:28:55 EDT
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:28:55 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      randompoem
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

in fact was already begun. My announcement brought in three entries so far,
two in secret to me and not the board, and one in broad daylight. Also,
someone else solicited lines too. (Any entries?) We may need to start over
on this. Laura's suggestion of seeing just the previous line would be a
good compromise between those who would choose for the entirely random,
and those who would prefer at least a little structure and intervention of
the rational in the ordering process. How would Laura's method be accomplished
in fact, and what should ________ and I do with the entries we've collected
so far? Michael B.
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Posted-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 15:23:08 EDT
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Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 1992 15:23:08 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Brautigan
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

There was something magical and time-connected about it. As I read Mike
Stallings" message I suddenly could picture myself in a very particular
place in a very particular moment in time, and I was fixed there by the
particular flavor of Brautigan. There was something in the air he dis-
tilled. And I am glad that people write books like that, even if he won't
be adjudged as having attained that other kind of greatnes.
Michael Brennan McColl
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:49:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Hitler as a Brain-Dead Fish - a digression

Oh, just forget it, then.

MMcDonald
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 09:44:32 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Russian/Soviet writers

>I've been enjoying reading the exchanges on Russian writers, but personally
>I've always enjoyed some of the later, Soviet, writers.  High on my list is
>Mikail Bulgakov.  I especially enjoyed "The Master and Margarita"...thought
>that it was amazing stuff!  It was like nothing I'd ever read before--I read
>it for a 20th Century Russian/Soviet literature course during my undergraduate
>years.
>Melissa

  I've read _The Master and Margarita_ but I am forced to admit that
it made no particular impression on me one way or another.  I'd be
interested, however, to hear what I was missing.  Would you be willing
to elaborate upon it?

  Other post 19th century novels I've read and would be happy to chat
about include
    _St Petersburg_  by Biely??  something like that.
    _The Isle of Crimea_  by Vasily A****  can't remember his name either
    _And Quiet Flows the Don_  by Sholokov
    Sergei Dovlatov's books (as mentioned, I believe, in a previous post)
    _On the Golden Porch_ by Tatyana Tolstoya
     probably others I can't recall off-hand....

                                                -Tim
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 06:27:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Robertson Davies

Are there any Davies fans out there?  I'm late getting to this writer,
and reading *Murther and Walking Spirits*, his latest novel, makes me
wish I had discovered him earlier.  The book is clever, entertaining and
thoughtful all at once, featuring a remarkable approach to first-person
narrative, and to the question of the relationship between personal and
world history.  I recommend this book to all of you most highly.

"And Mm."  *Finnegans Wake*, 115.
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Posted-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 14:11:28 EDT
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:11:28 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Nina Berberova
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Just want to second that recommendation, for anyone looking for excellent
fiction that will remind you of what you liked about the 19th century
stuff, without being old-fashioned at all.  Mike.
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:34:20 EDT
From:         Randy Money <LIBRBM@SUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Taste

>On the other hand, I think that writing *is* or is partially a textbook
>thing, at least in the sense of the good old anthology.  Since Longinus,
>we have had the collection of flowers.  With the rehabilitation of
>rhetoric, I think we should rehabilitate the literary model and the
>teaching of taste.

George,
    A picky point probably, but could you define what you mean by
teaching taste, or maybe define what you mean by taste?  Weren't
many of the novels (for instance) we now consider great considered
tasteless in their day?  (_Ulysses_ comes to mind; I'm not sure but
what _The Sun Also Rises_ was considered indelicate when published.)

Randy
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:22:27 -0900
From:         the First and Only Nude Vaxer <FSCLL@ALASKA.BITNET>

Someone please help me. One of my posts showed up on the list over ten times
here, and a reply from someone named Tim Johnson showed up on the list
over fifteen and counting. Something is really wrong. And the headers
get longer and longer and longer.....

List operators help!
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:06:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Character of Levin.

One more thing, Tim.  You quote Tolstoy but refuse to *read* the passages
you've quoted.

M McDonald
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Posted-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:25:05 EDT
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:25:05 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      random
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Or maybe a jumple is an unexpected poem. Jumple?
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:56:21 CST
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From:         Melanie Willis <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject:      re: Jeremy Irons as Kafka

Mel Gibson was really GREAT in Hamlet, wasn't he?

Statistics & Research Consulting
782-4418
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:01:03 -0500
From:         Doris Smith <dorisann@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      worthwhile reading?
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Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list LITERARY <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

Would someone comment on Edward Rutherfurd's _Sarum_?  Is it worth
reading? I've read some 60+ pages so far and find it a bit plodding. Since
I'm confined to home for at least three more weeks convalescing from major
surgery, I'm trying to read some of the books that have piled up around here
that I don't usually have time to read. Don't worry about eliminating any
of the suspense that may be present.  Does it get better? How accurate is
it in regards to the setting and history?
Thanks,
Doris
dorisann@tenet.edu
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Posted-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 23:47:38 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 23:47:38 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      the brilliance of Ronald Reagan
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	Whoaaaaaaaaoooooo. To speak lines written for him, lines which
expressed popular prejudice, popular wishes, a desire to be deceived,
may show a kind of cynical intelligence in those who surrounded Reagan,
but from all acounts he was, if anything, mentally disabled in two or
three different ways. And quite frankly, I don't think he mesmerized
anybody, not a single soul.  That's just something we were told for a
while.  PLEASE let's deny not only Reagan's brilliance, but his intelli-
gence as well, not to mention his inability to distinguish fantasy from
reality. Of course, as someone has pointed out, you can define intelligence
and brilliance any way you want to, so that anyone might fit.
Michael B.
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:24:00 EDT
From:         Randy Money <LIBRBM@SUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      spoilage

> . . . .  Nowadays there is a big
>emphasis in popular books and movies on the importance of suspense,
>but suspense is really a very minor aspect of good novels.  Someone
>help me to clarify this, because I don't mean I don't enjoy the story.
>I do, and I can, again and again, because of the way it is told.
>Michael B.

Michael B.,
    Though a lesser example, the moment I read this, the Sherlock
Holmes stories came to mind.  Of all work that runs solely on suspense,
detective stories might seem the ultimate example.  The Holmes stories,
are enjoyable on rereading for reasons that are hard to explain, though
they include smooth, stylish writing, familiarity with the characters and
locale, and the give and take between the central characters.
    I find the same is true, for me, of much of Faulkner's work but
the reasons might be more complex.  I wonder if there are base reasons
for this: why does the novel _M*A*S*H_ not call out for rereading,
while _Catch-22_, a novel with a similar perspective on war, almost
demands rereading on the first reading?  (Maybe there are better
examples, but that's the one that came to me.)


Randy
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 10:52:00 CDT
From:         BLAB06WY@UIAMVS.BITNET
Subject:      J. Carroll

There was an interview with Carroll a few months back in Publishers'
Weekly. I don't have access to the back issues right now, but it seems
to me it was sometime near the end of January. If you can't locate it
from that, let me know and I'll chase down the complete citation. The
interview had a certain amount of biographical information and opinion,
the facts of which I'd hate to try to recount here from memory. But I
hope this is some help to you.
                                Steven Wickelhaus
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 07:53:21 -0500
From:         "Kar Subrat" <SUBRAT@ITSICTP.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Amis and Gordimer

(Please do not use my older email address : subrat@itsictp.bitnet)
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Re: my email (from Subrat)
|
| entirely authentic. Would anyone tell me what brogue the two
| gentlemen in Kipling's short story _Laughing brook_ are using ?
| Irish ?
|

CORRECTION, CORRECTION : Not Laughing Brook (stop) Apologize (stop)
Friendly Brook (stop) Repeat, Friendly Brook (stop) Apologize (stop)

Subrat
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 09:52:54 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Turgenev

>     Someone on the list mentioned enjoying Turgenev.  Have you read _A
>     Friendship in Letters:  Flaubert & Turgenev_?  It's an interesting
>     look into the minds of two brilliant writers.  The letters are edited
>     and translated by Barbara Beaumont.  If you enjoy reading either
>     author, I think you'll enjoy the correspondence between these two.

  As a Dostoevskian, it is hard for me now to think of Turgenev
without remembering _The Possessed_.  I confess to largely ignoring
him as an author, though I have read _Fathers and Sons_ (renamed,
in an inclusive language translation _Fathers and Children_.  Anyone
on this list know well enough whether "Sons" or "Children" is the
more accurate translation of the Russian?  I guess _The Possessed_
is properly translated _The Devils_, but I think _The Possessed_
has a better ring to it.  A title which improves upon being
translated.  ;-)

  As for Flaubert, I've only read _Madame Bovary_, and I suspect
I will ruin my reputation further by establishing my sympathy for
Emma's husband.  Another Karenin stuffed shirt?  I find the story
quite comparable to Tolstoy's _Anna Karenina_, certainly the
Bovaries and Karenins were cut from the same cloth.  Or maybe
it is only my perception that this is the case which unfairly
colors my opinion of Anna?

                            -Tim
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:49:00 CST
From:         "VALENTINE M. SMITH" <CDELL@UMKCVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Richard Brautigan

As I recall, Brautigan allegedly killed himself because he was in his
mid-forties, and thought all his friends saw him as a lightweight hippie.
In despair, he wiped himself. Sad, his books provided me many an amusing
moment, especially the novel about the sombrero (Japanese Sombrero?),
Confederate General in Big Sur, the one about Rommel driving ..Deep in
to Egypt or some such, The Abortion; 1966, and Willard and His Bowling
Trophies were most of my favorites. Oh, and the Springhill Mine Disaster!
The guy wrote lightly, succinctly, and with great deadpan humor. I mourn
him still, an icon of my twenties, now past these twenty years. VMS
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:10:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Legacy of England

Mike, the book i miscited, Abdul JanMohamed's *Manichean Aesthetics*, is
very good indeed.  I would also recommend anything by Homi Bhaba, who has
become perhaps the foremost academic voice in matters of colonialism,
Edward Said's *Orientalism*, and Benedict Anderson's *Imagined Communities*.
Of course, none of these writers does better than the great novelists who
have written on this topic, among whom must be considered Rushdie, Gordimer,
Achebe, Fuentes, and Garcia Marquez.  No writer goes further, in my view, in
deconstructing the sheer insanity of colonialism and its aftermath than the
very great Clarice Lispector; check out her story "The Smallest Woman in the
World," which can be found, among other places, in the excellent anthology
*Eye of the Heart*.

Best,
MMcDonald
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 14:53:37 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      a throw-away comment on Dostoevsky

>  i remember this little tidbit from his early days in the literary
>group.  a short man (?), he had i think a painful shyness that
>made it difficult for him to put himself forward.  others saw
>merely his gruff exterior and his lack of interaction, and assumed
>the worst and wrote him off as arrogant, with a "he thinks he's too
>good for us" attitude.  typical.
>naomi seeger

  But, of course, he was.

                         -T
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:00:27 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Gaudi and gaudy
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Hi -- Anybody watch the Olympics on NBC last night?  One of their
"color" segments was about Gaudi, the celebrated architect who built
so many famous structures in Barcelona in late 19th - early 20th
century.  Anyway, to "cap" the segment, it was announced dramatically
that our word "gaudy" comes from Gaudi, whose creations could, I
suppose, be construed as such...

But wrong! wrong! wrong!  I checked and I *did* indeed remember the
quotation from _Hamlet_ correctly, and it proves my point.  I'm
sure all you literary types will be able to pull it out of your
heads.  Hint on request.
                                                    --Tom

-------
Tom Frenkel,    Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,
161 Ft. Washington Ave.,  DAP-1310,  New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer >>>
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