HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norinco 1911 vs Springfield
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:01:29 GMT
Organization: who knows

hmueller@orca.tamu.edu (Hal Mueller) writes...
# ...
#At the same show were a lot of Springfield Armory .45's.  The best
#price I saw (NIB) was $347 stainless, $325 blue (didn't look closely to
#see which model, exactly).  Are these prices typical, or did I miss
#an opportunity?

Those are great prices for the Springfields!

#Someone recently mentioned a shop that sold new Norincos for $339.
#If the prices for Norinco and Springfield are about the same (for new
#guns), why choose one over the other?

Norinco quality is unknown and I would not pay over $275 for one.  Get
the Springfield; it has a proven track record and may become a collector's
item.
From: patrick.eves@canrem.com (Patrick Eves)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: spas-12 trivia questi
Date: 23 Jan 93 15:59:54 GMT



VT>What's the hook on the SPAS-12 stock for?  It's usually thought of
VT>as a device to allow using this enormously heavy shotgun one-handed,
VT>but that's not its principal purpose.

Well, I've always thought it was for one-handed shooting, and Small
Arms of the World, as well as every article I've read on the piece backs
up this theory.  However, I will bow to your access to superior knowledge 
and throw my previous ideas to the four winds...

So..what's it there for?

Could it be in order to allow one to twirl the piece and walk funny, a la
Charlie Chaplin, during those times when a little levity is needed to defuse
a tense tactical situation?

Perhaps it's there to allow SWAT team members to hook crullers off the shelf
at the local Dunkin Donuts during those peak periods when the waitress is
busy?

I dunno, it's late and I've been up all day...

Pat
---
 ~ DeLuxe} 1.25 #12341 ~ Scixelsyd Etinu!  Won!
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: reber@oberon.rm.fccc.edu (John Reber)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Browning BDM experiences??
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:00:08 GMT
Organization: Fox Chase Cancer Center


--

Has any one had any experiences with Browning's BDM 9mm pistol??


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
					John P. Reber
Internet:    j_reber@fccc.edu		Fox Chase Cancer Center
Phone:	     (215) 728-3633		7701 Burholme Ave
Fax:	     (215) 728-2513		Philadelphia, PA 19111
	     "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: spickett@orion.oac.uci.edu (Steve Pickett)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 23 Jan 93 15:59:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <9301221707.AA16674@mmddvan.mdd.comm.mot.com> booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth) writes:
#In <1993Jan22.074239.17314@netcom.com> rbean@netcom.com (William Chen) writes:
#
#
##The pistol he has IS an Omega. Notice the twin  side extractors. How id you
##like the G3K ? =) 
##I've heard rumors that he use to compete in IPSC. is that true? 
#
#My Black Badge Instructor mentioned he had seen Steven Seagal compete in IPSC 
#matches, and that Mr. Seagal knew his stuff.
#
#Apparently Mr. Seagal has had some custom .45s made for himself as well.
#

I can confirm the part about having a custom 45 built. Anyway, at least one.
The gunsmith that builds most of my stuff built a stainless Colt for Seagal
last year. I asked what movie it was for and he said he thought it was for 
Seagals personal use. I also know others out here who've built other stuff 
for him as well. I think he feels technical realism in movies is important. 
Maybe he does the same thing many of us do when we view a movie and spots a 
major exit from reality...Hey, it could happen :-)  I still would rate his 
movies well above the other stuff thats out.

-Steve
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Recommend a .22LR Semi-Auto Pistol?
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:03:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

I'm considering picking up a semi-auto .22lr pistol for cheap,
recreational paper-punching.  I already own a Glock 17 9mm for home
defense, with which I practice regularly.  I'm simply looking for
something that would be fun and that I could afford to put a few
hundred rounds through in an afternoon.

I tried out a S&W (model 422, I believe) and a Browning model.  I saw
Rugers there, but I'm not sure I want to buy anything from ol' Bill
(please, no political responses) and I'm not a fan of their looks
anyway.

The S&W felt decent.  It's an odd-looking gun (but all of the .22's
are sort of odd-looking).  It's difficult to describe.  It's available
with several options, such as blued or stainless, fixed or variable
sites, and wood or polymer grips.  I'd like to hear recommendations on
these choices.  I didn't care much for the Browning.  It had a very
short, tight trigger pull.

Anyway, I'm interested in others' experiences with .22lr pistols.
I've seen the RamLine "squirt gun" and I don't think I could shoot it
with a straight face. ;) Also, I'm not interested in the pocket-sized
autos.  There was also an Intertec gun that looked like a nasty toy,
but I believe it was out of my price range.  I'd like to stay around
$150-250.

I'm interested in reliability, accuracy, and magazine capacity.  I'll
consider extended magazines.  For example the S&W 422 stock magazine
holds 12 rounds.  I'd like something more like 25.

TIA...
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------

                     Dallas Cowboys -- NFC Champions
                           The 'Boys are Back!
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Space Guns: more mindless prattle.
Date: 25 Jan 93 03:09:54 GMT
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi

Looking once again into the subject of building a NRA Highpower match
rifle based on the AR-15, I'm thinking about cartridges and some
technicalities of the NRA rules. Now some people have been able to
chamber the AR-15 to fire the 7.62X39 Russian and the 6 mm PPC. These
cartridges are, however, far from the maximum length that action will
handle. I've been thinking about a 6 mm cartridge based on a shortened
6.5 mm Carcano which would be about the largest cartridge that could
feed through the AR's action. Has anyone done any work on this line.

Rule 9.6 requires, with exceptions, that a competitor use the same
rifle through a match. However, some competitors have changed
barrels and calibers between 300 and 600 without running afoul of
this rule as long as the gun has the same serial number. Now, if
we take this one step farther, what would keep someone from shooting
a "Space Gun" in .223 or 6 mm PPC out to 300 yards and then punching
out the push-pins and dropping on an upper in some wildcat caliber
that would not feed through the magazine to shoot 600 yards? The
gun still has the same serial number. If Mid Tompkins can swap
barrels, what's wrong with Don Newcomb swapping upper receivers?
-- 
Donald R. Newcomb                * Oh please, Mr. Clinton, won't
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu        * you please just tax that other
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet            * guy and send his money to me?
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: HELP** 9mm vs. 38Super!!!!!
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:38 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:

#Reasons to favor the 38 super :
#- The SIG in 38 super would be a rare beast (not so much a 
#  collectible as a "hardly ever see one of those' types of guns)

	A store around here had the SIG 220 in .38, 9+1.  I've
never even seen it in whlsl catalalogs, but I'm sure you can 
special order it.  Nice gun, but after hearing that SIG considers
25000 rds of 9mm a reasonable life for the 226, and declines to 
replace it, I don't think I would want a SIG .38 for extended use
(like IPSIC), or any aluminum framed gun for that matter.  They
ought to make some steel frame models for competitive shooters.

	The old Astra A-80 in .38 Super is an interesting find.
It holds 15+1, like a 9mm, but is light and compact.   I handled
one at a store, and I wouldn't mind having one in addition to 
the .45, but I didn't have the moola.

#I regard the 38 super as a specialty IPSC round, and see little
#real need for it outside the one special application.  

	Not if you're Mexican (or Italian, etc).  %^)

JD
From: rigg@adtaz.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: hand shake
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:30 GMT

->    What would you experrts out there recomend to someone with a slight
-> shake in their hand.I myself suffer from this inheireted disease and i
-> would like to know if there is a way of increasing the accuracy of 
-> my shot.

I have a similar problem (which is not too severe, fortunately).
I've been told that it is caused by everything from a calcium
deficiency to a nervous system problem in which my nerve impulses
are too regular (the impulses have a pattern instead of being
completely random).  Both rifle and handgun shooting are affected.
It has never been bad enough for a doctor to suggest medication,
nor is it anywhere near bad enough to hamper any other activity.

Here are the things I have found to help:

1.  Go shooting early in the morning (shortly after a good nights
    sleep), the shake is very slight and manageable.  That is
    when I do most of my shooting.  It gets worse later in the
    afternoon and evening.

2.  A two handed grip on handguns is a must.  I've tried several,
    and have found that I shoot best with the index finger of the
    off hand resting on the front of the trigger guard.  I can't
    hit the broadside of a barn with one hand.

3.  Avoid shooting on high-stress days.  Go on your day off of work.

Short of a benchrest, or prone position, I have not found a way to
reduce the effect of my shake when shooting rifles.  I've been trying
to use the sling on my HBAR, but have not had enough time to see
if it helps.  The gun is only a few months old, and I have not been
able to shoot anything for over a month because of a silly little
softball injury that resulted in my doctor drilling a steel pin into
my finger.  I only have to wait another 5 or 6 weeks!  I try to say
that cheerfully, but I'm suffering on the inside.  Anybody know
a cure for shooting withdrawal? :-(

Dana Rigg
Chandler, AZ
rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: shooting under water?
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:09:48 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> at any given point during the powder combustion.  This should indeed
-> lead to higher chamber pressure.  How much higher, I don't know.

 That brings up something I've been kicking around for a while.  It
would take very little effort to whip up a pressure test device using an
old barrel - for example I could take a .357 or .45 revolver barrel and
screw a cap over the end, drill the appropriate hole in the side for the
pressure sensor, and use a solenoid and pin to strike the primer.  No
need for crude copper crush cylinders - you could measure the pressure
directly.

 Has this been discussed to death here before?  I could whip the thing
up on the lathe pretty easily, but I'm at a loss as to how to handle
the electronic part.  It sure would be nice to have an actual pressure
curve instead of a peak reading.

 With the pressure checker, you could safely test offbeat handloads or
suspect ammo without harming your gun, and you wouldn't have to
guesstimate pressure from the condition of the primers, case head, or
astrological signs.
From: basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Nyclad expansion in water (was 9mm Nyclad HPs)
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:17:19 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:

#Odd result.  I tried the same test with 125 gr. Nyclads in .38 Sp. fired 
#into milk jugs (1 gallon, I think).  The slug delivered enough shock to the 
#first jug that it ruptured the sides of the jug.  The second jug was
#penetrated completely, but no explosive effect.  The bullet came to rest in
#the third jug in line, perfectly expanded.  I then did the same test
#with a 154 gr. "range round" reload wadcutter - it blew the smithereens out 
#of all three jugs and kept on going.  Even though the Nyclad worked as
#advertised, the shock and penetration of the round (at least in 125 gr.)
#was so wimpy that we decided to get some factory 154 gr. wadcutters
#as a defense round.

Well, the shock delivered by the wadcutter may have been higher, but
a human torso is highly inhomogeneous and probably won't respond nearly
the same way as a milk jug. Keep in mind that the Nyclad transferred _all_
of its energy to the milkjugs while the wadcutter transferred most of its
energy to the backstop. 

David Basiji
UW Bioengineering
NeRD #3762
From: callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 10mm and CHP
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:20 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <MAILQUEUE-101.930126081318.288@english.as.ua.edu> DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton) writes:
#I also have the feeling the test was slanted in favor for the S&W.
#After all, one of the requirements for pistol selection was ease of
#take-down in the field and requiring no tools. Heck, what's easier
#than a Glock?? Even in the dark?? 

How 'bout a Beretta ;-)

#And the CHP had stringent deadlines
#for submitting pistols for evaluation. Made things kinda' hard for
#Glock and Colt. And the 40 had only been around for a few months.

If they decided to go with the .40, it should've been obvious who they
wanted; look at the name of the round-- .40 Smith & Wesson.... ;-)

			James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: rats@ihlpm.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT backup advice/instructions needed
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:35:57 GMT

In <9301251801.AA00398@stortek.com> Bill Vojak states:
 
| Well, as I've posted before.  I owned a AMT automag several years
| ago.  The first day I owned it, it blew up in my hand when the
| slide crushed a live round instead of chambering it.  The surgery
| on my "trigger finger" cost $1000+.  It also cost AMT some $$ to
| settle with me. . . 

What did the discovery process reveal? Was it a freak accident? Bad
engineering? Bad execution? Sloppy tolerances? A relative of mine
happened to meet the designer of the rotary bolt of the Automag; this
was some years after the demise of the Automag [The designer had moved
on to Hughes Aircraft...]

|To this day, (5+ years later), I still only
| have 60-70% strength/feeling in my right trigger finger.  I also
| couldn't shoot a semi-auto for over a year after the accident because
| of the flinch that I developed because of it.  Maybe that's why
| I now still prefer revolvers over semi-autos.

How did the Automag fail so as to cause this damage?
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: RE: Is Winchester Made in USA? What others are?
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:11:19 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <25JAN199308215646@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>, by aeporro@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro):
# In article <1993Jan20.204255.10941@unislc.uucp>, unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (James Warren) writes...
# ##From article <9301201453.AA00704@zippy.cs.UMD.EDU>, by C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob):
# ## 
# ## FWIW, what major American gun companies are truely American?  Ruger,
# ## Colt, what else?
# ## 
# ## Rob
# ## 
# 

I've been told that the various Browning Buckmarks (Silhouette in
particular) are made in Japan.  Is this true?  What other firearms are
made in Japan?
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Home Invasion Prevention Tactics Wanted
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:17:25 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <1993Jan27.013749.4218@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#In article <199301252346.AA04775@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
## ...
##That is a very good observation. However, the bottom line of the
##prblem is to decide which one is equal to death, shoot or not-shoot.
##So how do you decide which one is equal to death?
#...
#  However I think that there is a slightly easier question to be
#answered - (assuming NC law in which lethal force may be used only
#to defend people, not property) - "am I (a person of reasonable
#judgement) convinced that I am being seriously threatened with 
#death/severe bodily harm"?

There are a lot of overlapping among these two questions, IMO.
Let me give a most common scenario. After midnight, you wake up
to the sound of break-in. You have the following two choices:

(A) Take out your gun(s), go to the safe room(s), call 911, and then
    shoot the first intruder entering the safe room.
(B) Pretend that you are in your deep sleep and hope ( naively? ) that
    they would just take your stuff and leave.

IMO, there is no way that you would know the intention of the
intruder(s). Choosing option (A) will force you to shoot when you
see the first bad guy. ( Or could that be some law enforcement
people who entered the wrong house? ) 

Guess what I am trying to say is that it is still very difficult
to answer Henry's question. Do we go back to square one?

David 


#  Unless or until the answer is "yes" then don't shoot.  If the
#answer is "yes" then "shoot to stop".  

-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | IEEE Member, NRA Member, HAM Operator
 Communication Services Research  | U S WEST Life Safety Team
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Defend your life in STEREO - Beretta & SIG 
 E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: @hermes.intel.com:bhoover@pdx254.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Bruce Hoover)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Synthetic Stocks
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:36:54 GMT
Organization: Workgroup Computing Division, PDX, Intel

In article <MAILQUEUE-101.930125131204.416@english.as.ua.edu>, DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton) writes:
|> I've had a good experience w/ HS Precision synthetic stocks. Nice to
|> deal with, prompt and courteous. I cracked a stock once and called
|> them. They instructed me to send it ASAP and they'd replace it, no
|> questions asked. I recieved it three weeks later, almost to the day!
|> Only cost to me was paying for UPS shipping to them.
 
 There is an article in the latest issue of GUNS magazine about 
 HS Precision. FYI
From: reidld@ecf.toronto.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Wanted: .308 varmint bullet suggestions
Date: 23 Jan 93 01:55:32 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility

I am presently building a target rifle (Winchester Mod 70 .308).  My
thoughts roll around to the imminent (!) approach of summer, and the
idea of using this rifle for groundhogs comes to mind.

The rifle will have a 30" barrel with 1 in 14" twist, a .307" by 0.298"
bore, and be chambered to min spec 7.62 NATO, with .3085" throat.  I
will be shooting 155 Sierra Palma bullets for my match load.  In
competition I will be mostly using iron sights, out to 1000 yards.  But
for sniper matches, load development, and this proposed varminting,
I'll have a 6-24X B&L or 6.5-20X Leupold.

I do not know if these Palma bullets are frangible enough to be safely used
for varmint hunting.  Anyone know if I can shoot my match load at those
cute little critters, and have some assurances that the bullet will smash
itself into harmless little pieces?  Sure would be nice if I could get
away with developing only one good load.

Or, I can go to a lighter bullet.  Speer has a 100 gr flat hollow point;
while this looks fragile enough for safety, its exterior ballistics do not
look encouraging.  Does anyone know of a light .308 bullet that is
fragile and sleek?  I don't suppose Hornady makes a .308 version of their
.223 'super explosive' bullet, eh?  (Rumored to work most impressively).

-- 
reidld@ecf.toronto.edu (Daniel Chisholm)
reidld@ecf.toronto.edu (Daniel Chisholm)
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: BEST SHOTGUN DEFENSE ROUND?
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:42:14 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1993Jan20.183210.7268@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
}FKK@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
}
}#I'm sure that this has been discussed earlier but after shooting in some
}#3-gun 'tactical' matches at Chabot Gun Club I believe that a 3" shell with
}##4 buck shot is the best round.  The reasons? At the longer distaces 50+ yds
}#you have a better chance of hitting a bad guy with the greater number of
}#pellets in the magnum round.  If you go to 00 buck you have too few pellets
}#and with slugs you have to aim carefully.  The drawback is that these 3"
}#shells really kick.  Any comment?
}
}I have a problem with 50+ yard defense shots, since
}1) you are propably not in immediate danger over that distance,
}2) you could easily endanger bystanders,
}3) for home defense you have at most 10 yd distances.
}
}If your secenario involves defending yourself at home or on  your
}premises,  I'd  stick with 00 buck in 2 3/4" shells, maybe inter-
}mixed with some slugs, if you have sufficient  magazine  capacity
}on your shotgun.  Let's say every third shell a slug.

It depends on the type of assault you expect to defend against.  This came
up for me in a different context.

I read in some gun rag that the U.S.  Marine anti-terrorist squad thinks
the ghostring sights on their shotguns are useless and are agitating to
get them removed.  That gave me cause to think, because I'm getting ready
to put a ghostring on my shotgun.

I finally decided the Marines and I have different agendas.  They only use
their shotguns for clearing rooms and buildings.  All their targets are
likely to be at point blank range.  For those that aren't, they're backed
up by snipers.

I am not going to be clearing out rooms full of terrorists.  One scenario
I may have to deal with, however, is a car full of gangbangers firing on
my house from the street or the alley behind.  Worst case, I might
legitimately need to put a slug through a car window at 30 yards and I
won't have snipers backing me up.

The same can be said for choice of ammunition.  I want something that can
punch through a car door or window, at 30 yards if necessary, and still
have enough energy left to do the job.  Hence the 3" magnums.  Ugly, but
there it is.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                "If you can't stand solitude,
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  perhaps others find you boring
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        as well."  -- Mark Twain