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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:22:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Amen, amen.
X-To:         christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

No, Bob.  John 3's use of amen does not at all imply that Jesus is agreeing
with part or all of what Nicodemas just said.  Remember that this is a
Greek idiomatic expression and that Jesus wasn't speaking Greek but
Aramaic.  The context would indicate that the contrary of what you said is
true ... Jesus is saying amen to His own statements.  Just look at what is
being said.  Nicodemas comes up and says to Jesus, "We know you are a
teacher sent from God."  Jesus replies, "Yes, and if you aren't born again,
you cannot even percieve the Kingdom of Heaven."  Jesus is saying that
Nicodemas does not know anything, that he does not know who Jesus is, that
he can't know such a thing for he is not born again.  The 'amen' is in no
way agreement with Nicodemas, but an affirmation of what Jesus is about to
say.


Dan Graham
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 11:28:07 CDT
From:         Joe Moore <CC19@SDSUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Did Jesus respect beliefs?

>  a) Some believe that God is responsible for, and actively controls,
>     everything.  God made Adam eat the fruit; God is the author and source of
>     all sin.  I consider this blasphemous.

This is an interesting straw man.  As stated, I don't agree with it.
However, I think there is a sense in which God is responsible for
sin in this world.  I still believe that God is Good.  Read the
first chapter of Job carefully and try to relieve God of the
responsibility for Job's affliction.  I don't think it can be done.
Ultimately, God determined that it was better to create man (fully
knowing that he would sin and cost Christ a painful 33 years of life
and death) so man could CHOOSE to love him and glorify him.  No
choice for man, not nearly as much glory for God.  Given choice, man
sinned (and God knew that he would).

This is not to say that God chooses each sin.  God knows what
choices we will make and when we will make them.  He can prevent us
from sinning by blocking us before we get a chance.  Does that make
him responsible?  In a sense, yes.  If I can prevent a car accident
by taking a simple step and choose not to, I am responsible.
Remember, though, that God is ultimately good and that the choices
he makes are the best possible ones.

I've always had a problem with the simple statement that God can do
anything.  God must be consistent with himself.  Therefore he cannot
contradict himself.  This is why Christ had to die.  Even God must
make choices between good and better and best.  Praise the Lord that
He's making these choices and not you or me.

Joe Moore
cc19@sdsumus
From: bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM (Brad Kaiser)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Mary & colour blue
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:54:37 GMT
Reply-To: bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
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              13 Aug 1992 10:29:08 EST <9208131529.AA22586@motgate.mot.com>

Kerry asks,

>> So, is the "color of Mary" thing more of an art thing than a theology
>> thing?

I'm not Carol, but I wanted to mention a couple of points:

1) Mary is mentioned in Scripture as a woman in heaven "clothed with
   the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of
   twelve stars". (Rv 12:1)  "Clothed with the sun" doesn't sound like
   she appeared to John in blue.

2) However, many Catholics believe that she has appeared on earth in
   post-Scriptural times in blue garments.  Probably the most famous
   of these apparitions would be that of Our Lady of Guadalupe.  (Hey,
   Memo, this one's for you, brother!)  Mary also appeared at Lourdes
   in blue robes.  I'm not sure about Fatima & Medjugorje.

3) Dioceses in Spain have an Apostolic Indult (special permission from
   the Pope) to celebrate feasts of the Blessed Virgin using blue
   vestments.  Elsewhere in the Western Church, blue is not a
   permitted liturgical color, and such feasts would be celebrated in
   white vestments.

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 04:02:22 -0500
From:         "Michael S. Muegel" <mmuegel@MOT.COM>
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Some important facts on the mail that was undelivered:

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-Mike

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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:03:10 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: Something more on Revelation

It  was written by both !  The Holy Spirit and John.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 14:26:58 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dear Rome : prove it
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Carnes" at Aug 21, 92 12:47 pm

>First, the Council of Trent condemns anyone anathema who denys the tenants
>of Catholic, OPENLY.  This means the person disagreeing is condemned to Hell.
>How is this true?
>
>Second, Catholic tradition says that Mary was a virgin perpetually.
>Where in Scripture does it say this?  If only a tradition, HOW is that
>equal in authority with the Bible?
>

Jesse,

let us rejoice in the fact that Jesus Christ is our Judge, and not the
catholic church.. I rebuke the curses laid upon my by the Roman Catholic
Church in the name of Jesus.. I refuse to acknowledge them or submit to them..

We all have authority in the name of Jesus to rebuke curses, let us do it..


Marys virginity is not in scripture, but it doesnt need to be because they
believe men as  well asGod, when when men contradict the word of God...




---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:01:59 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Amen to Dan the man Graham

Dear Dan ;

By crackie, you stole my thunder ... I said the very same thing to the bloke.
The exception is that I forgot that Jesus was in the Aramaic mode ... the
idiomatic expression ... et cetera, et cetera.

The dearth of sound exegesis is astounding ... simply astounding!



Jesse Carnes
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From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Territorial Spirits
Date: 18 Aug 92 07:57:57 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Richard,

     Thanks for the information.  Peace, Zane.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:31:00 EST
From:         197850@XAVIER.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?

Date sent:  14-AUG-1992 15:09:59

Dave Talaga writes:

>...If it is true that the scripture, the living word of God, is in error in one
> place, then God himself is no longer perfect...

        I thought that it was man who wrote the Bible and if so, is it not
subject to error?


>                                             Yet, I wonder, if scripture is not
> accurate in things like history and science, how did the disciples, apostles,
> prophets or Jesus himself cure the sick and raise the dead?  How did the Flood
> come to pass? or the Red Sea part? or the 5000 get food?

        I have taken several scripture classes and although all of my teachers
have been Roman Catholics, they have taught me several things.  First, there is
a large amount of story telling in the Bible and as we all know, stories can
easily be embellished with each retelling.  I am not saying that is the
explanation for all of these occurances that were mentioned, but maybe for some
like curing the sick and dying.  We all *want* Jesus to be able to cure the
sick and dying, so we will believe it if it is the the Good Book.
        The case of the flood, as I was taught --- assuming that we are
talking about the flood involving Noah, was one such story of embellishment.
There might have been a great flood at that time, but because of the retelling
through so many generations, it might have made it much greater than it really
was.  About the Red Sea...  are there any Hebrew scholars out there?  I was
taught that there might have been a translational error between either Hebrew
to Greek or Greek to Latin.  What the original text said was the
"Sea of Reeds," which coincides with an area of swamp lands that might have
been in the escape route.  In that area, the days are often dry and hot and dry
these areas up, but at night when it is cool and moist, these swamps are what
we think of as typically swampy.  Thus, the exodus passed by this area during
the day and when they were persued by the armies, the chariots got stuck in
this swampy land and the chase was finished.
        I am, not trying to convince anyone that this is the correct view, but
this is what I have been taught by scripture scholars.  I was really surprised
by all of this because I was taught to believe that all of the stories of the
Bible were true.  Then these views came along.  I am not certain where I stand
with these explanations, but I think that it gives me more to think about
rather than just blindly following like the infamous lemming!  I hadn't thought
before about being a follower and not thinking about what I believed in and for
what reasons.  This has put all of my beliefs into prespective.  So take it in
what way you will!

        John
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 12:08:00 EST
From:         HENZLEEF@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Beggars

amen.
From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re:      Is the Bible Absolute Truth?
Date: 12 Aug 1992 15:22:33 GMT
Organization: Rice University

Jesse Carnes writes:
>After hearing from one person, I am prompted to ask the Question : "Is the
>Bible a source of Absolute Truth?"

>My answer is yes.
[...]
>1) God is not "trying" to communicate with us ... He IS communicating with us
>in language made of propositional statements that we can understand.

>2) God is not trying to speak in uncertain means so as to fool the saved.

>3) God is not necessarily attempting to be clear to those who will never come
>to Christ.  See Jesus' words about parables and why He used them in the Mark
>Gospel.

>4) Without ABSOLUTE Truth, nothing has definition down here and if that were
>the case, skepticism and resultant nihilism would result.

Okay now.  I have been accused of being fundamentalist by many people.  But it
is simply not true that the Bible is 100% correct in all ways.  Inerrant
in faith and morals, maybe, but certainly not in history, or science.

The Bible is not a set of logical propositional truths.  In order
to adequately prove this I will follow up with a posting from 
talk.religion.misc containing a large number of contradictions and scientific
errors in the Bible.
 
We must realize the context of these books to understand them.  We cannot
just read them with our 20th century minds and blindly apply them.  They
were the inspired words of people writing to churches, to other people of
the time.  The Bible is not "complete."  It does sufficiently describe
the way to salvation.  However it doesn't tell you everything you will ever
need to know; if you think so look forward to dying next time you don't
get a miracle to cure your appendicitis, etc.

The fact is, we do not have "Absolute Truth" (tm).  We have a set of fairly
reliable books that we believe God was speaking through in order to communicate
certain things about himself.  We must acknowledge the doubt.  Remember the
lesson of Thomas.  We believe without 100% absolute certainty.

-Ernest

-- 
--------------\  /^--^\  /--------------  *     Ernest Conrad Mueller IV
   ------------\| 0  0 |/------------     *     mueller@owlnet.rice.edu
      ----------\_ <> _/----------        *     Rice U., Home of Owlnet
                /V\--/V\                  *     "Give a hoot - Don't compute!"
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:47:00 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      What is Babylon?

It has been asked whether "Babylon" as described in Revelation 17
and 18 and elsewhere symbolizes a corrupt and apostate church, or a
political system, or something else.

Yvette Taylor asks:

 > What type of political system would burn candles
 > and have men and women getting married in it?

We are given the description of the fall of a great city, called
Babylon, and it is said of the city (Rev 18:23, RSV):

 + and the light of a lamp
 + shall shine in thee no more;
 + and the voice of bridegroom and bride
 + shall be heard in thee no more.

Here, as elsewhere, the language is borrowed from denunciations of
Babylon by earlier Hebrew prophets, presumably referring to the city
of Nebuchadnezzar, the king who destroyed Jerusalem in about 587 BC
and carried the Jews captive.  Thus Jeremiah 25:10 (RSV):

 + Moreover, I will banish from them
 + the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness,
 + the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride,
 + the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp.

The King James Version regularly has "candle" where most modern
translations have "lamp". This is misleading, since for modern
readers candles (when they do not suggest a romantic dinner for two)
suggest "church," and for some Protestants, a church service with a
more ritualistic atmosphere than they approve. But the reference is
simply to oil lamps, the standard lighting of ancient times.  In a
prosperous, contented, unthreatened city, one would see lights, and
hear the sound of festivities, wedding celebrations and the like,
and the sound of production and commerce, the grinding of millstones
and the like.  Not so in a ruined and deserted city.  And the image
here used, regardess of what is symbolizes, is the image of a city.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: satoell@eng.auburn.edu (Ellen Ayumi Sato)
Subject: Vineyard Christian Fellowship -- Info ?
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 03:04:59 GMT

  Shalom!
 
  Have you ever heard of the Vineyard Christian Fellowship?
  Could you tell me about them?  Thanks! 

  His for the Harvest,
  Ellen.

  satoell@eng.auburn.edu

  "The Father, seeing His prodigal son, ran to meet me."  (Sergius Bulgakov)


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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 02:57:51 -0500
From:         "Michael S. Muegel" <mmuegel@MOT.COM>
Subject:      Non-Delivery Report for <9208202108.AA22992@motgate.mot.com>
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

The Mot.COM major relay, Pobox.Mot.COM, was not able to transfer electronic
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Some important facts on the mail that was undelivered:

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-Mike

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| UNIX Applications Startup Group      | Moto X.400:  QF0001                 |
| Customer Services and Support        | Internal:    IL06/1st               |
| Corporate Information Office         | Voice:       (708) 576-0507         |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:22:21 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 8/14
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

"So do not be ashamed to tell people about our Lord Jesus.  And do not be
ashamed of me.  I am in prison for the Lord.  But suffer with me for the Good
News.  God gives us the strength to do that" (2 Timothy 1:8).

"I was chosen to tell that Good News and to be an apostle and a teacher.  And I
suffer now because I tell the Good News.  But I am not ashamed.  I know Jesus,
the One I have believed in.  And I am sure that he is able to protect what he
has trusted me with until the Day" (2 Timothy 1:11,12).

"I pray that the Lord will show mercy to the family of Onesiphorus.  He has
often helped me and was not ashamed that I was in prison" (2 Timothy 1:16).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:23:14 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jesus speaks

Yo Elizabeth:

I do believe Him. Who are you talking about?

Tom
From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Netnews and Christia.
Date: 13 Aug 1992 21:09:24 GMT
Organization: Rice University

>Personally, I'd be in favor of closing any automatic gateway between
>Christia and Netnews.  I have had posts I made here copied to other nets on
>Netnews without my permission.  Now, that's not illegal, but very
>unethical.    Most anyone on the uunet can get a gateway so they can
>subscribe to Christia or any listserved net.
>
>Dan Graham

Frankly, it is just as simple to crosspost from your mailbox to Netnews.
Closing y'alls news feed would serve no useful purpose except making it
a lot, lot harder for those of us with news access to handle the
large volume of Christia mail that would surely get dumped into our poor
mailboxes.


-- 
--------------\  /^--^\  /--------------  *     Ernest Conrad Mueller IV
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:26:00 EDT
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From:         LIZ MOREAU <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer Update

A couple of weeks ago I asked for prayer for my sister who was waiting
for a biopsy result.

Praise God!  All went well.  She may need surgery in 5 months, but the
biopsy came out fine.

Thank you everyone for your prayer support!

                                        Liz
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia