From: kachun@spot.Colorado.EDU (Ka Chun Yu)
Subject: Re:      Re: Atheist Philosophy
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:40:35 GMT

I propose that this should be moved to talk.environment or sci.environment.
Meanwhile however . . .

In article <1992Nov23.123002.15597@doug.cae.wisc.edu> mccullou@cae.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>
>In article <9211221418.AA06205@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com>, I3150101@DBSTU1.RZ.TU-BS.DE (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>|> Mark McCulloughs types among other misunderstandings:
>|> 
>|> >Non power: Ozone.  How long has the ozone hole existed?  Noone can answer
>|> >because noone knows!

Incorrect.  See below.

>|> 
>|> No, a ozone hole has far reaching side effects such as an increase in skin
>|> cancer that would have been detected earlier.
>|> 
>The very ability to detect cancer is a new science.  What about the
>ozone cycle that is in direct correlation to sun output cycles?

Don't you think possible solar effects have been factored in?  The ozone
depletion over the Antarctica has been shown to have NO significant correla-
tion with the sunspot cycle.  There is little scientific doubt that the
Antarctic ozone hole is caused by CFCs.

>Also consider this:  Those people who live near the poles get less
>candela of light, therefore, less UV light, therefore less rays to
>potentially cause skin cancer.  Think!
>
>|> >It could have existed for centuries.
>|> It could not.
>|> 
>Why?  We only in the past 20-30 years had the ability to even begin
>to detect it or its absence reliably over the poles.  When we first
>went south to chart the ozone, we found the hole.  Now, how long was
>this hole here.  You are saying the following.  I went into this new
>woods and found a hole in the ground.  Since I just found this hole, it
>is very new, despite the fact that I couldn't have seen it earlier.

Wrongo again.  The ozone hole was not found "when we first went south
to chart the ozone."  Ozone levels have been measured in both the Arctic
and the Antarctic since the 1950s.  The drop in stratospheric ozone levels
over the decades can and has been charted.

>
>|> >How do you
>|> >create ozone?  Shine UV light on O_2.  What does ozone shield against?
>|> >UV light!  Nice isn't it?  Yea, CFCs need to be more controlled, but
>|> >the enviornmentalists aren't telling us everything.
>|> The first time I read that was in a environmentally concerned Time Life
>|> book about twenty years ago. Further, I doubt that you understand how
>|> UV light is absorbed and how CFCs (among others) and ozone interact.
>|> 
>Oh?  Is it unreasonable that I could have actually studied the ideas
>and concepts?

From everything that you have posted, it sure doesn't sound like it.

>
>|> >Am I suppossed
>|> >to reject religion and then turn around and accept everything the
>|> >enviornmentalist claims without question?  Sounds like I am to reject
>|> >one religion for another.
>|> 
>|> Accepting claims without question is not exactly how the Scientific Method
>|> works. Ever heard of it?
>|>    Benedikt
>But that is exactly what you are asking me to do, accept claims without
>sufficient evidence that anyone can produce.  Yes I know the
>scientific method, I use it a lot.  I am questioning your conclusion,
>now present some real evidence to support your claim.  Most of your
>evidence is questionable and cannot reliably be used to support any
>conclusion.
>M^2

Maybe you should actually *read* some real science, instead of whatever
distillations of it you are getting your information from now.  There is
very little doubt in the scientific community that the Antarctic ozone
hole is man-made.  The ozone depletion in the middle latitudes is a bit
harder to pin down since the fluctations are much smaller.  All of this
can be backed up with actual research (references can be given upon re-
quest).  Do you have anything to back up your claims?

-- 
*Ka Chun Yu               * Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy       *
*kachun@spot.colorado.edu * Astrophysical, Planetary, and Atmospheric Sciences*
*         --or--          * University of Colorado,  Boulder, CO 80309        *
*kachun@vela.colorado.edu * (303) 492-6857                                    *