From: pdsmith.mitre.org (Pat Smith)
Subject: Re: troublesome puppy
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:54:09 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.211229.5921@morrow.stanford.edu>, liza@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Liza Miller) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Oct7.191749.20696@linus.mitre.org> pdsmith.mitre.org (Pat Smith) writes:
> >There is a good book called Dog Watching.  There is also a book written by
> >some Monks who train German Shepards.  I forgot the name.
> 	The Monks of New Skete have written two books:  How To Be Your
> Dog's Best Friend and The Art of Raising a Puppy.  They are both excellent
> resources.
> 
> >Mainly you need to train the dog that you, not he, is the boss.  Saying NO
> >is not enough.  You need to punish him.  I suggest you get a crate and use it
> >for punishment.  When the dog is bad, tell him no and put him in the crate and
> >ignore him for 2 or more hours.  10 minutes is not enough.  Never tolerate

Comment:

Crates can be used as a den and in that case I agree that the crate is not
proper for punishment.  But many trainers use crates as punishment and it is
humane.  Dogs don't care about rude or not rude.  They need to be trained
what is proper behvior and a 10 minute punishment is not too effective.

> 	No, no, no, and no!  Crates are NOT, I repeat NOT, meant for
> punishment.  Your dog's crate is his den.  Crates are where dogs sleep,
> relax, and feel safe.  They are *not* where dogs are sent to be ignored for
> two hours.  How rude!
> 	Telling the dog "no" is not punishment unless the dog knows what
> "no" means.  It is your job to teach him.  If the infraction is minor or
> the dog is "soft" (responds *well* to correction), saying, "no," in an
> angry voice can be all the punishment the dog needs.  However, with some
> dogs you need to be firmer.  This can range from a shake-down, or a pop under
> the chin to an alpha-roll or a more physical version of a shake-down.
> Please, please read the above to books for descriptions of how to use these
> corrective tools!  
> 	The *only* way that a crate should be used in conjuction with
> punishment is to give you and the dog time to cool off.  With my first
> puppy, I used to get sooooo upset if he did something wrong (his laughing
> attitude didn't help at all!) and after he was punished, I would crate him
> for about 10-20 minutes to allow both of us time to cool down.  Being ANGRY
> at your dog is *not* a good idea.  Always deliver corrections in a calm,
> thoughtful manner.
> 	

Talk to some professional dog trainers - crating is effective.  I personnaly
put the dog in a 1/2 bath and ignore him for a while about 1 hour.  He responds 
very well to this and stops his bad behavior really quick.  

> 	Crating your dog for 2 hours as a means of punishment is a MOST
> ineffective way to handle your dog.  
> 
> >biting.   You will have a real problem when this playful puppy is and adult 
> >who bites.  Curb the behavior now. You must be consistent and firm.  Give 
> >him proper punishment when bad and praise when he is good.  They learn quick
> >and want to please you. Good luck.
> 	I agree with that as well.  Dogs should not bite unless you are
> training them for shutzhund work in which case you should know what you are
> doing!  If your puppy bites, these two steps will really help control the
> problem.  1.  YELP loudly as you pull your hand away and scold the puppy.
> "Ow, that hurt.  Why would you do that to me.  Bad!"  2.  Offer the pup an
> appropriate chew toy and praise her when she plays with it.  "Good pupster,
> that's a good chewie, huh?"  Do this for several days and you should see an
> improvement.

Comment - this is really bad advice.  Why on earth would you yelp at the dog
and then reward him with a chew toy or treat?  They don't realize what seems
logical to you.  They just think they are rewarded for biting.  Yelping No and 
punishment is preferred.  Dogs understand a few words - their name, No and so
on.  What they hear with your method is No! xmnasdfandfnam a fnkmfnxc ajfjf.
No afjna adfjf nafma  akdfjl.  (Nos and a lots of gibberish).


> 	If this technique doesn't stop the inappropriate biting, it at
> least teaches the pup that biting people is not good and biting chewies is
> good.  At this point, you can assume that the pup knows it shouldn't bite
> you and is choosing to anyway.  My next step is to push my hand, finger,
> foot, whatever is being bitten further down the pup's mouth while saying,
> "No bite, bad puppy."  If this doesn't deter it, then I would grap the
> little darling's face and give it a good shake while staring in it's eyes
> and saying in an angry, growly voice, "No bite."  If this still doesn't
> work, you have a tough, little hombre there and a good smack under the chin
> would not be inappropriate.  If you do these steps well, slowly, and
> methodically and follow each correction up with a reminder of the
> appropriate behavior, your dog should stop biting you.  If it is still
> biting after this program, then perhaps you have a piranha and not a puppy.
> :)
> 
> 
More I don't recommend striking the dog under any circumstance.  That is a
good way to create a mean dog.  Your technique of exchanding a chew toy for
your hand whent the dog bites - does not teach the dog that biting the chew
toy is better than biting people. It teaches him that if he bites people
he is rewarded with a chew toy.
> --
> Liza Lee Miller         My dogs are labradorable!     liza@pangea.stanford.edu
> Cibola Labradors            Field * Show * Fun                    415/326-5309
> Cibola's Misty Mountain Hop--Hopper                   Mistypoint Kashmir--Kash
> 	            Campbellcroft Cibola Rosette -- Rosie
> 
>