From: marcogan@student.anu.edu.au
Subject: Axiom mania!
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 00:26:53 GMT

I seem to have created a monster. But a very interesting monster,
nonetheless. I wish I was in the same time zone as everybody else so I
could reply less then twelve hours late...What follows is all, naturally,
IMHO.

When I first mentioned laws of physics, I was simply referring to that set
of charcteristics each cosm has which define how physical things behave. It
is a property of these charcteristics in Core Earth that they have
something called 'internal consistency', which is to say they relate to
each other in a particular way. The 'laws' of physics in, say, the Living
Land, are simply the charcteristics of physical behaviour that the cosm
exhibits. They may appear to superficially resemble those of Core Earth,
but, upon examination, may be very, very different (they may well lack
'internal consistency').

So, in the Living Land, living, growing things exhibit different
charcteristics than identical things which are not living and growing, or
which are detatched (however recently) from living/growing things. A wood
and skin hang glider will not function like a pterodactyl, because it is
not a pterodactyl. In Core Earth, the charcteristics of an object that are
relevant to its ability to fly are only its shape, size and mass. Whether
it is 'living' or not is as irrelevent as its color. In the Living Land,
however, being alive does make a difference to whether something can fly or
not. 

Now, as for how people understand the world around them, I belive this is a
function of those laws, but bearing in mind people have erronious beliefs
about things (Aristotle and planetary motion, for example). Aristotle was
wrong about the way planets worked in Core Earth. It is pretty silly to say
that he was right and that the universe changed when the Copernican
revolution happened; no-one but Copernicus belived that the sun was the
center of the solar system. If the general shape of beliefs formed the
'laws of physics' at that time, Copernicus would have no evidence to back
his theory up with. 

People do not have an intuitive understanding of the maximum technology
possible in thier cosm. They may have a good understanding of how thier
physical world works, simply by experimentation (or, in Aysle, they
understand what is true because they see it to be true, thanks to the Law
of Observation)

I see the axioms as being, barring interference from High Lords or what
have you, fixed in a given cosm. So CE's tech level has always been 22+;
there is no problem with the fact that different civilisations used
different bits of technology with widely differing tech axioms. The axiom
was always 22(+) so, there is no contradiction. Similarly with social,
spiritual and magical axioms.

Similarly, the Living Land has never had, and never will have (barring a
major effort on the part of someone powerful) magic. 

As for the problem of the sonus to one'e Scienc skill rolls, consider this:
tere is a difference between the axioms of one's cosm, and the axiom level
to which one understands science. If Leonardo Da Vinci were suddely brought
to the 20th century, he would still use whatever axiom level he understood
science at as his bonus (which would be, what, about 15 or 16?). This is
irrespective of the fact that he leaned his science in a tech 23 cosm, and
was now living in a world which uses tech 23 technology. Leonardo still
uses tech 16 science and builds tech 16 technology with it. 

The Incas, then, had a tech 16 understanding of irrigation and
architecture, but only a tech 5 understanding of metalsmithing. (but I
agree: the TL charts are Eurocentric.). Not a problem, thought, cause the
world they were living in has a tech axiom of 22.

I am aware that this (a) contradicts what is in the rulebook, and
                     (b) has little to do with the actualy *playing* of
TORG.
But *I* think its interesting, anyway.








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"Those who speak, do not know   	       	Mark Cogan
 Those who know, do not speak"  	       	marcogan@student.anu.edu.au

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