From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Lord's Table (Part 1 of 2)
Date: 18 Aug 92 05:57:12 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

> My intention was never in anyway meant to attack Catholics or
> whosoever.  [I have got better things to do.]  I was looking at
> a specific false teaching that Peter supposedly founded the New
> Testament church.

I understand.  I appreciate Ernest's defense, but in reality I am the one who
brought the issues up, and I am the one who is is fully responsible for the
thread, and I do wish to discuss it.

I am very happy, K., to be able to discuss these things with you, and very
happy that you have chosen to respond to my messages.  I rejoice in your zeal,
but I would like to ensure that you do not hold any misconceptions.

> I took the Biblical stand the Jesus Christ himself founded the first New
> Testament church.  This independent, local church then in turn sent out
> missionaries which in turn planted other N. T. churches which would
> eventually become independent and self-sustaining relying solely on the Bible
> and the Holy Spirit for truth, doctrine, and wisdom in the things of God.

This unfortunately is not what the Bible says, nor is it how the early church
worked, if you carefully study Christian history.  1 Th 2:15 says that we
should also adhere to traditions passed on by the Apostles ("Hold fast to the
teachings you received, whether by word or mouth or by letter").  Nowhere does
Scripture say that Scripture alone should be our authority, and it can be shown
that the early church did not believe this.  Scripture says that the pillar and
foundation of the truth is the Church (1 Tim 3:15), not Scripture, and the
foundation of the church is the apostles and prophets (Eph 2:20), again not
scripture. The faith was once for all entrusted to the _saints_ (Jude 3), a
living body.  We must not hold beliefs contrary to the teachings we received
(traditions) (Rom 16:17).  We must keep away from those who do not hold to the
traditions we received from the Apostles (2 Th 3:6).  The Corinthians were
praised for upholding traitions (1 Cor 11:2).  In short, Scripture makes no
claim to being the sole authority, which is why the early church did not
believe it.

It could perhaps be argued that such a believe is appropriate for today.  But
it was not believed by the early church.

Nowhere do we see "independent" churches in Scripture; all were subject to the
authority of the Apostles.  After the Apostles died, bishops appointed by the
Apostles took their place (2 Tim 2:2). 

> (Christ is the rock mentioned in Matthew 16:18.)  Jesus Christ has ALWAYS
> been the Rock.  

No, Christ is not the rock mentioned in Matthew 16:18.  Peter's name is Kephas,
which means Rock.  "Blessed are you, Simon bar Jonah ... You are Rock, and on
this rock I will build this church."  This is how the disciples would have
understood what Jesus said in Aramaic.  If Jesus were the rock in Matthew
16:18, it would have been silly for him to name Peter rock.  (Peter comes from
the Greek word for rock).

> "And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the
> builders rejected is become the head of the corner:"  Mark 12:10.  See
> also Psalms 119:22.  Peter was a mere man ... YES, a man of God, BUT still
> a mere man.  God the Father founded His church through His Pure and Holy
> Son.  In fact the Bible declares that Jesus Christ purchased it with His
> own BLOOD need I say more?  Matthew 16:18 declares the church to be Jesus
> Christ's foundation.  Jesus Christ says it was His church "MY church" ...
> not Peter's, not Paul's, not anyone elses.

Yes, Jesus founded the church, but built it on Peter -- the foundation of the
Church is the apostles and prophets (Eph 2:20) -- with Jesus as the "chief
cornerstone".

> However, this authority DID NOT include forgiving sins.  The Bible says
> NOTHING BUT the shed BLOOD of Jesus Christ can forgive sins.  (The Bible

I should have qualified my post.  Only God can forgive sins.  Only the
sacrifice of Calvary has the power to substitute for our punishment.  The Blood
of Jesus alone cleanses us from our sins.

Yet Scriptures says ("If you forgive anyone sins, they are forgiven; if you
hold them bound, they are held bound") that the Apostles held the power to
determine whose sins were forgiven, and whose were not.  In essence, the
Apostles were given authority to forgive sins in God's name.

> He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  No man cometh unto the Father (which
> is in Heaven) BUT by Him.  Amen.

Alleluia. I fully agree with your understanding of the sacrifice of Christ.

> K. Paulson
> 1109 16th Street North #1
> Fargo, ND  58102

> [If someone said that Peter founded the church, I suspect they misspoke.
> As far as I know, everyone agrees that Christ founded the church, and
> that any forgiveness is from his blood.  --clh]

Right.

Eric
--
/=============================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer     For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA  pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com          they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==============================- 2 Th 2:15 -==================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.