HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:42:53 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>phone time to access my BBS daily. So when they come to my BBS, they expect
>>to see "rec.music.synth" sitting there waiting for them when they are 
>Nope. They're coming to your BBS, expecting to see the messages in
>rec.music.synth sitting there waiting for them. 

Well, some don't know enough to know that the name by which they previously
referenced the information has changed. 

>Only if you (or whoever maintains your gateway) continue to be obstinate and
>refuse to make the trivial changes needed to change the name of the group 

That's not the point at all.

The point is, because of continued obstinance, inflexible dogma, and 
arbitrarily decided naming rituals, you've already alienated many 
people from these lists (I have it on good authority). I am merely
doing what I have to do so that maybe you'll listen to the other side
of the argument. 

Apparently there's no way to get you to listen or even understand. 

See...most people aren't as obstinate or loud as I am. They just tend
to go away when they see this kind of inflexibility. You rob Usenet of
the very strength that Usenet can have...it's diversity. You folks aren't
helping the net at all with your damn inflexibilities and your purile 
ideas about newsgroup naming...all you seem to care about is keeping that
control. 

I'm not the only one that feels this way, but I apparently am (in this
matter) the only one who will confront you folk with this sentiment. 
Yes, everyone else is tired of talking about it...some out of real fatigue
and some out of seeing yet another person who doesn't believe in the one
True and Right Way (tm) that you do fall by the wayside like so many others
I have seen over the years.

Well not this person. I'm willing (and always have been willing) to fight 
as much as I have to until some sort of change takes place. Watch.

-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

    What seems to be absurdity and is not, 
         is better than the ignorance of the man who thinks it is absurd.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 22:18:09 GMT

In article <1d9sfnINN90v@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn) writes:
>For me, you have failed to address a primary concern I brought up: who
>are you?  How long have you read the hierarchy?  How many split-flame
>fests have you seen?  If you are inexperienced in Usenet (Fidonet is
>completely immaterial in this matter) I would suggest you not continue
>with this doom-ridden and ill-conceived proposal.

I'm sorry, I assumed that whether or not a group was passed was totally
unrelated to whether or not the person proposing it had net experience.
I thought the merit of the group was the deciding factor.

As for your reference to the group being "doom-ridden" and "ill-conceived",
more people have sent me mail saying "yes this sounds like a good idea" than have sent me messages saying they did not like the idea.  Thank goodness, the
decision as to whether or not a newgroup is made is decided by a vote and
not by self appointed "net gods".

It may be that, when it comes down to the vote, less people will want the
group made than don't want it made.  It may be that more people will want
it made, but the 100 vote majority will not be reached.  If so, so be it.

Now to answer the irrelevent question which you have asked, and I have
chosen to ignore in the past as a basic "flame taunt" I have used the
net for more than five years.  And no, I'm not talking about FidoNet, I'm 
talking about Usenet.

Can we get back to the issue now.  We are here to discuss a newsgroup, NOT
to flame eachother and make charges of inexperience.

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: rec.music.synth (again)
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 09:20:01 GMT

In article <2940003@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> bparrish@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (William Parrish) writes:
>
>(1) One person said that if a CFV appears in this group, that it affects
>this group... not so... there are also a couple of CFVs in the non-expired
>stuff that is for REC.MUSIC.REGGAE (I think that's spelled right).

Gosh, I guess synthesizer users don't ever play reggae music, eh? None
of them are interested in it. Or maybe some are? Wouldn't you think that
maybe those readers of r.m.s who play reggae music with their synths
might just be interested in r.m.r? Adding a group to talk about that
topic certainly would affect many of the readers of r.m.s.

>(2)  The CFVs on this group were probably valid... but the thing about
>rec.music.synth was tacked at the end of SEVERAL changes proposed by
>a single CFV.  

I'm sorry, but when there is more than one item in a list, one of them
must come last. That doesn't mean that it is "tacked on the end". It
means it is last in the list. Being last in the list of groups involved
in a reorganization is hardly grounds for demanding a revote. It isn't
even grounds for complaining about being last.

>To be honest, I'd seen the titles go by, read the first
>page (on one of our default-sized screens which are only 23 lines long
>or so) and thought that this one seems to deal with percussion and
>guitars, and ignored the whole thing.  I would have voted against
>the changes IF I'd READ THE WHOLE THING.    

You stopped three lines too soon. Percussion was item D, synth was item E.
I don't know, but if _I_ see a list of groups that are being voted on,
and they all deal with instruments, I would read to the end of the list
to see if the instrument _I_ played was on that list. At least as far as
the end of the list. Three more lines.

>I'll be able to live with the name change... but I think that in this
>case, it was difficult to tell what was going on TO THIS GROUP without
>carefully reading the whole thing... 

or at least two lines further than you chose to read.

>and it probably should have been 
>spelled out clearer exactly what was happening TO THIS GROUP (rec.music
>.synth).

From the CFV you quoted:

>>Proposal E: Rename rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth
>>Charter: "Synthesizers and computer music"  [UNCHANGED FROM CURRENT]

That is pretty clear.
From: gwydion@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: SOC.RELIGION.ISLAM.AHMADIYYA Moderated
Date: 6 Nov 1992 15:01:51 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <1992Nov1.164125.25730@bernina.ethz.ch> nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik) writes:

>This is quite easy since I think, judging from the posts, that even the 
>opposing
>Muslims accept that everyone including Ahmadi Muslims have a right to have 
>their own newsgroup. Thus the basic human right of self-determination is 
>universally agreed upon.

You are highly mistaken.  I do not accept that you have the right to
have your own newsgroup.  Muslims do not have their own newsgroup.
Christians do not have their own newsgroup.  Newsgroups do not belong
to people or to various subsets of the usenet community.

Newgroups are nothing more than an attempt to group discussions by
category.  My claim that the creation of a soc.religion.ahmadi
newsgroup might be appropriate is nothing more than an attempt to
refine this categorization.

Basalat Ali Raja.


Xref: sparky news.groups:20864 news.admin.policy:241
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,alt.flame.spelling
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Followup-To: alt.flame.spelling
Date: 9 Nov 1992 22:22:00 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov6.185336.22685@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1992Nov08.204250.24016@wes.on.ca>
	<1992Nov9.094324.11431@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:43:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.094324.11431@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

   tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen) writes:
   >An observation,
   >  - Dave Hayes' name appears in the voters' list for rec.music.makers.*
   >    reorganization, with a 'N' vote for rec.music.makers.synth.

   I was waiting with baited breath for this. 

Worm, minnow, or something else slimier? :)
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
Date: 7 Nov 1992 04:59:51 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov7.021748.19266@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>The side benefit of this discussion, other than convincing the ravaging
>hordes of Huns out fot alt.folklore.* blood to leave us alone, is that all
>this may convince a few syadmins to start picking up alt.folklore.*! 
>After all, we're demonstrating here that there're at least a few people
>out there who value those groups enough to either try to swipe them or to
>defend them to the death! :)

Argh.

All you alt.* diehards are doing is insuring that I won't be able to
participate.

So be it.

I truly don't understand why you (generic you) are so adamant about wishing to
remain in the sewer...but I'm now convinced that you are not willing to
rationally consider the situation. I give up.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 11 Nov 1992 20:32:15 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <BxKsBu.CsL@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
[I deleted my post, you can read it, it's the middle one in refs]

>Josh...you question my honesty, I honestly question your intelligence.  I
>in no way was trying do define what *was* role playing, I gave an example
>of what was not.

Bruce, you are a genius at not answering questions.  What I asked
(well, implied, really) was if you had read the FAQ for r.g.f.dnd,
becuase if you had, you would know that this question--"what is true
roleplaying"--has already been decided.

>And before you start strutting arround crowing "but how can you define whta
>is not role playing if you haven't defined what it is", let me give you a
>contrary example.
>
>Define true love.  You can't, can you.

You amuse me.  This is not junior high.  We do not have to answer
this.  I know what true love is, and I will define it, but that is not
relevant here.

>Go to rec.games.frp yourself and ask everyone if "I swing my longsword at
>the orc" is true role playing.  Come on Josh, embarass yourself there as
>well as here.

Moron!  I know that that is not true role-playing.  *You* are the one
who wants to quibble over debating points.  I don't have to ask there,
I have read the FAQ already.

Now I will ask you some questions:

(1)  Have you actually ever read r.g.f.dnd?

(2)  Have you actually ever read the FAQ from that group?

(3)  Have you actually ever read the charter for the r.g.f heirarchy?

A "no" answer to any of these means you are *less* qualified than I am
to propose a new group.  BTW, do you see me proposing new groups?  No,
you don't.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall@minerva.cis.yale.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
From: hch@oclc.org (Curtis Hunter)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:35:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.010759.5707@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) writes:
>>Do you have any idea how many people you are alienating by harping
>>on this as if USENET's sole responsibility is distributing MIDI
>>articles to a BBS net?
>
>About as many people as were alienated by the announcing of the name change. 
>
>So what? Just because I didn't complain at the appropriate time, does that
>make the complaint invalid? That is the stupidest methodology for progress
>I've ever heard in my life. 

  It does not make your complaint invalid. But I feel that the vote should be
honored and a possible change to the guidelines be discussed.  The complaint
was after the fact and I still cannot believe that if you felt so strongly
about the name change you didn't bother to mention anything on news.groups
while the RFD was going on, or at least on r.m.s.  If you had talked to a
few people on r.m.s before the voting maybe the result of the vote would 
have been different.

>
>My concern about this problem developed after the vote passed and when
>people were dropping away from r.m.s like flies. I'm sick of people being
>alienated by elitist news admins...and I'm gonna do what I can do about it.
>If that means screaming and yelling at this point...so be it. 
>

  I think the only "elitist news admin" that is alienating people is yourself.

>-- 
>Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
>dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh
>

_______________________________________________________________________________
|                                                                             |
|  Curtis Hunter                      curtis@sporty.col.oh.us                 |
|  Online Computer Library Center     hch@oclc.org                            |
|  Dublin, OH                         CIS  76040,2605                         |
|  (614) 764-6325                                                             |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|
From: steve@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Steve Schallehn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.radio.info moderated
Date: 7 Nov 1992 06:33:07 -0600
Organization: Kansas State University
Reply-To: steve@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Steve Schallehn)
NNTP-Posting-Host: festus.ksu.ksu.edu

pschleck@cwis.unomaha.edu (Paul W Schleck KD3FU) writes:

> [...] However,
>since the newsgroup would be both a bulletin/FAQ and "Best-of"
>discussion thread summary newsgroup, "info" would avoid confusing its 
>mission (as others may associate it with the existing *.answers heirarchy,
>which are for FAQ's only, and complain, "What are all these discussions
>doing in an answers newsgroup?!").

>Paul W. Schleck, KD3FU


I agree the name should be 'rec.radio.info'.  From a quick grep of my
site's /news/spool/nn/GROUPS file, there are 4 '.info' groups
(gnu.emacs.vm.info  rec.arts.startrek.info  rec.music.info
rec.arts.comics.info) and only 2 groups with '.answers' (news.answers
rec.aviation.answers).  Our site has a nearly unlimited feed.

An excellent example of an '.info' group is 'rec.arts.startrek.info'.
Considering the hundreds of articles a day the startrek groups receive,
rec.arts.startrek.info is really a great filtering service. 


-Steve Schallehn  KB0AGD
From: arras@forwiss.uni-erlangen.de (Michael Arras)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.fuzzy (the final word)
Date: 6 Nov 1992 16:12:57 GMT
Organization: FORWISS, Uni Erlangen, Germany
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bfws46.forwiss.uni-erlangen.de


	There were a number of people who thought that the fuzzy group does
not fit under comp.ai because fuzzy is not AI.  I kinda (PS) agree, but I
think that the newsgroup should (PL) be called comp.ai.fuzzy.  I wasn't so
sure until I saw this announcement in comp.ai for a conference:

                              FLAI'93
              Fuzzy Logic in Artificial Intelligence

                         June 28-30, 1993
        Bildungszentrum St. Magdalena, Linz, Austria (Europe)

                 Announcement and Call for Papers

                      General Information
Recently, a rapidly growing number of real world applications based on
fuzzy logic has drawn much attention to the theory's scientific
background.  Especially the artificial intelligence research community
has focused interest in ways to integrate advantages of fuzzy logic
into existing techniques such as expert systems. This conference will
present recent advances in achieving this goal.

                     Topics of the Conference
Submissions are invited on issues covering all aspects of fuzzy logic
related to artificial intelligence, including but not strictly limited
to:

 * Fuzzy Inference
 * Relations to other Approximate Reasoning Methods
 * Engineering Applications
 * Uncertainty Management
 * Theoretical Foundations
 * Learning and Acquisition of Approximate Models
 * Critics (controversial statements are solicited and will be
           impartially reviewed)
 * Applications of Fuzzy Logic to
   - Expert Systems
   - Knowledge Representation
   - Qualitative Modeling
   - Process Control
   - Databases
   - Neural Networks
   - Case Based Reasoning
   - Genetic Algorithms
   - Scheduling
   - Pattern Recognition


	I realize that this does not make fuzzy logic an AI technique,
however, after that, noone can say fuzzy has no relationship with AI.
Putting fuzzy under comp.ai has advantages such as "clarity and organization"
over other suggested newsgroup names, and I've been told that comp.fuzzy
probably won't be approved by the net admins, meaning no newsgroup at all.
So, even though I've flip-flopped on this issue more times than many of our
popular presidential candidates, I'm going to show leadership by saying the
new name of the fuzzy group will be comp.ai.fuzzy and the CFV (call for
votes) will be posted in a few days.  You had better come up with a good
argument and a lot of support if you want to change my mind now.

                                    __    __
Michael Arras                      /  \  |  |  Bavarian Research
arras@forwiss.uni-erlangen.de     /    \ |  |  Center for
Artificial Neural Network and    /  /\  \|  |  Knowledge-Based
Fuzzy Logic Research Group      |   __   |  |  Systems__________
Tel (09131) 691-211             |__|  |__|__|
I speak for myself.             F O R W I S S  ERLANGEN * MUNICH * PASSAU

Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 19:55:09 GMT

In <1992Nov6.001452.2126@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>Like I told you before, the point is the same...but I reserve the right
>to change the expression thereof. The current expression is that the
>CFV was not posted in a clear manner (e.g. subject line: CFV 
>rec.music.makers.*) to members of rec.music.synth. The original point
>was the awareness that the name was being changed to suit other than a 
>plurality of the participants.

If you told an officer that you were using a car, but didn't realize
that the little signs with numbers were speed restrictions, he'd laugh
at you.

People claiming that they're using USENET without being aware of its
procedures and then claiming that that ignorance is excuse to try
overturning a vote POST FACTO are nearly as laughable.

The guidelines are set to try to be as fair as possible to as many
people involved as possible.  If you have improvements to make to
the guidlines, as has been said, suggest them and see if we all
agree that they are indeed improvements.

However, claiming that a vote that was conducted fully in accord
with the guidelines and that has been demonstrated to have posted
the relevant CFVs to rec.music.synth is invalid is simply ridiculous.
The guidelines are there to make our lives as news admins easier,
so we don't go through this huge argument every damn time a vote
comes along.  If the readers of the group are too ignorant of
the way things work and of the fact that they SHOULD read CFVs because
after all they wouldn't be posted to their group if they weren't relevant,
then they should either wake up or live with their apathy.

We all have hard lessons to learn.  I think the readers who wish to
ignore CFVs have hopefully have learned something with this one.
-- 
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
                  A hippopotamus is not a symphony orchestra!
From: eng20009@nusunix1.nus.sg (TAN GIM WEE)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
Date: 7 Nov 92 14:13:13 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

IMHO, NUS is not doing anything about this proposed new newsgroup
because the computer centre here has recently created about 10 local
newsgroups catering to the needs of the people in NUS.
Anyway, given the large number of Singapore bashers in netland, this new
group will probably be just another avenue for them to enjoy themselves.a
Maybe this is just like opening Pandora's Box.

--
---------------------------------------------------------
Tan Gim Wee
EE Dept, NUS
internet: eng20009@nusunix1.nus.sg
bitnet: eng20009@nusvm.bitnet
"It was a dark and stormy night......"	-  Snoopy
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 13 Nov 92 20:36:13 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn) writes:
>>And, let's say I wanted to start a group... how do
>>you go about doing the RFD and voting and blah blah blah?
>>Well, thanks... later...
>Heh....  I'd politely suggest that if you do not know these things,
>then you should only be thinking about starting a group in a hyp-
>othetical sense.  

Politely or no...is this how you respond to a new user's request for
information? What's wrong with saying "read the guidelines in 
news.announce.newusers" and leaving it at that?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Intellectual (n.) - 1. One who knows no craft
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:33:51 GMT

a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:
>>Because their group might be fragmented. That's why. That's why *I* care.
>So don't cause the fragmentation.  Go along with the vote.

No way. If you folks won't compromise, I won't. Nyahh. <grin>
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   People who think they know all are often insufferable.
            Rather like those who imagine that they know nothing.
Newsgroups: news.groups