HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ramsdell@linus.mitre.org (John D. Ramsdell)
Subject: Re: Mach vs. NT? 
Reply-To: ramsdell@mitre.org
Organization: Research Computer Facility, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA
Distribution: comp
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:23:22 GMT

In article <BzG3Gw.1s6@alsvid.une.edu.au> mark@alsvid.une.edu.au (Mark Garrett Internet: mark@arvak.une.edu.au Phone: +61 66 20 3859) writes:

...
	   WindowsNT is based on the Mach3.0 micro kernel!!!!!!!!

...
	   2. even worse, mach is part of windowsNT 
...

Please state your source for these claims.  They are at odds with
Dave Cutler's remarks and Helen Custer's book.  There is no excuse for
making sensational claims without providing any supporting evidence.

John
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: wjg@bluemoon.use.com (william grimm)
Subject: Re: Mach vs. NT?
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 21:31:42 EST

cwilder@eis.calstate.edu (Charlotte Wilder) writes:

> Mach vs. NT... they actually have very little in common... NT, which
> stands for "new technology" is a complete operating system + GUI.  Mach is
> a kernel upon which an operating system, even many operating systems, can
> be built on top of.  NT is Microsoft's baby and if we all know Microsoft,
> they are tight when it comes to giving out information, code, or otherwise
> about their products to keep a "competitive edge," which is utter BS IMHO
> and Mach is available free of charge, source code, etc and has many
> technological innovations of its own.  I'm not an expert of NT or Mach,
> but what appears apparent to me.


Well, NT also uses a microkernel, upon which many operating systems can be 
built.  It is indeed quite similar to mach.  And, I believe MS hired the 
developer of Mach- not sure about this, though.

 This is from
     wjg@bluemoon.use.com
who doesn't have his (or her) own obnoxious signature yet
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: edwardj@microsoft.com (Edward Jung)
Subject: Re: Mach vs. NT?
Date: 13 Dec 92 10:23:59 GMT
Organization: Strategy Division, Microsoft Corp.

Some facts to clear up some misconceptions:

1. NT now stands for "New Technology". It did not originally
   stand for "New Technology", but what it used to stand for
   had nothing to do with VMS-. Dave Cutler, the software
   "father" of VMS and DEC (as well as lesser-known projects),
   is the chief architect for NT.

2. The researcher in charge of the Mach project, Rick Rashid
   while at Carnegie-Mellon University, currently is the
   Director of Research at Microsoft. A number of people
   involved in Mach at CMU are in the research group. Neither
   Rick nor his group has been directly involved in NT,
   although they have provided feedback. They arrived at
   Microsoft well after Cutler's team was in place.

3. NT is a micro-kernel architecture with a small object
   manager in its executive. One big difference between
   the Mach and NT architectures is the use of the port
   abstraction in Mach, which NT does not have.

4. The product "Windows 3.1/NT" is the NT micro-kernel
   hosting a number of user-level subsystems including
   a 32-bit and 16-bit Windows API, and running on a
   variety of CPU architectures and SMP machines.

5. A nice but seldom-described feature of NT is its
   definition of the Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL),
   while allows significant innovation on the part of
   hardware vendors without requiring software changes
   in the NT kernel.

6. Windows 3.1/NT is an unreleased product. An essentially
   unrestricted developer's release shipped some time ago.


--
Edward Jung, Software Architect     edwardj@microsoft.com
Advanced Systems, Microsoft Corp.
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: ekl@kvamdata.no (Eirik Lygre)
Subject: Getting mach information
Organization: Kvam data as
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 14:54:55 GMT

I want to learn about mach. Where do I start? I'm not looking
for detailed technical information yet, but more for overview
material. If there exists a book called "Inside the mach os",
or something similar, this is where I want to start.

Of course, I'd prefer free publications -- like from some ftp
site.

Eirik

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eirik Lygre                                     Phone:    +47 4 623766
Kvam data as                                    Fax  :    +47 4 623985
PO Box 1101 Lura                                Email: ekl@kvamdata.no
N-4301  SANDNES, NORWAY
======================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: ramsdell@linus.mitre.org (John D. Ramsdell)
Subject: Re: Mach vs. NT?
Reply-To: ramsdell@mitre.org
Organization: Research Computer Facility, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA
Distribution: comp
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:28:00 GMT

In article <Bz2LFA.7qM@eis.calstate.edu> cwilder@eis.calstate.edu (Charlotte Wilder) writes:

   I don't know if NT is "loosely" based on Mach, but I do know that NT will
   be a microkernel based operating system.  

NT is not a microkernel based operation system.  It has a full
featured kernel which uses the Mach idea of using servers to implement
multiple operating system personalities.  NT's servers do much less
than Mach's.  For example, most of NT's file system code executes in
the processor's kernel mode as well as most of its security routines.

I recommend that you read Helen Custer's book called "Inside Windows NT".
You will quickly realize that Dave Cutler's crew has a very different
design philosophy than the folks a CMU.  Not very surprizing, eh?

John
From: rees@dabo.citi.umich.edu (Jim Rees)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: Re: Mach vs. NT?
Date: 12 Dec 1992 21:26:02 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan CITI
Distribution: world
Reply-To: Jim.Rees@umich.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: dabo.citi.umich.edu

In article <J8DNVB1w165w@bluemoon.use.com>, wjg@bluemoon.use.com (william grimm) writes:

  And, I believe MS hired the 
  developer of Mach- not sure about this, though.

I don't know if you really want to say that Rashid is "the" developer of
Mach.  Certainly many other people worked on it too.  But my understanding
is that he is head of the research lab at Microsoft and had little to do
with Windows NT.
From: 00bwanderson@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: How to get Mach; Mach for Mac?
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:18:48 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

Hello.  I have a few questions which (in lieu of a FAQ) I think can be answered
here.  First, how do I get Mach for any platform?  I understand it is at CMU,
but which address do we need to use to FTP?
Second, is the OS available for the Macintosh?  If so, which Macs are capable
us utilising it?  If not, why not? 8^)

Many thanks in advance,
Bruce
-- 
.sig?  We don' need no steenkin' .sig!

Bruce Anderson: A tradition of Chaos and Disorder since 1967
spock@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (unix)	00bwanderson@bsu-ucs.uucp (VAX)
Don't look at me in that tone of voice!  BSU disclaims me, and I disclaim them.
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: idall@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Ian Dall)
Subject: Re: Install Mach 3.0 w/o Mach 2.5
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:13:01 GMT

In article <1g6tg0INNp2u@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu> brtmac@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu (Brett McCoy) writes:
>Nope, I just pulled down GNUmach with the hopes that it could be
>installed from scratch, but no such luck.  It has been hacked up so
>that it can be built with standard make and not the CMU hacked stuff,
>but it still requires 2.5 to build the filesystem and get things set
>up so that the kernel has something to work with.

This is mis-information. You need to be able to make a BSD type file
system and populate it. The minimum would seem to be that you need a
system running unix with the Berkeley "Faster File System", of the
same byte order as the target system. You also need to either be able
to attach the disk of the target machine to your bootstrap machine, or
else your target machine needs to be able to do a raw copy from tape
to disk.

To *build* mach from CMU (can't say about GNUmach) you need a few
utilities which come as standard on mach 2.5, but will run just fine
Unix. I have cross compiled on a Sparcstation II running SunOs and it
works just fine.

It is true that the CMU make needs an AT&T source licence, but if
GNUmach has circumvented that I see no reason why you can't build and
install mach3 so long as you have *access* to (not even needing a
binary licence personally) a unix with FFS.

-- 
 Ian Dall           life (n). A sexually transmitted disease which afflicts
                              some people more severely than others.
   ACSnet: idall@augean.oz
 Internet: idall@augean.oz.au
From: leibrock@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de (Gerhard Leibrock)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: AMIGA MACH ? Worth using ?
Date: 14 Dec 1992 12:54:22 GMT
Organization: Fachschaft Informatik, U of Saarland, FRG
NNTP-Posting-Host: fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de

Hello,
I did see that there exists a port of MACH for the CBM AMIGA.
I do use an AMIGA at home equipped with 68030 and SCSI hds.
Is it possible to run this port and of course is the port useable
or just an early alpha release ?

Thanks for you answering me,
                            Gerhard
leibrock@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de
From: mark@alsvid.une.edu.au (Mark Garrett Internet: mark@arvak.une.edu.au Phone: +61 66 20 3859)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: Re: Mach vs. NT?
Date: 18 Dec 92 07:58:08 GMT
Organization: University of New England - Northern Rivers (Lismore)

From article <1992Dec12.000250.14799@microsoft.com>, by jhenshaw@microsoft.com (Jeff Henshaw):
> 
> In article  <Bz2LFA.7qM@eis.calstate.edu>,
> cwilder@eis.calstate.edu (Charlotte Wilder) writes...
> |
> | I don't know if NT is "loosely" based on Mach, but I do know that NT will
> | be a microkernel based operating system.  
> 
> I think it would be safer to say that NT is "loosely based on
> Mach concepts" since some of the ideas (like a microkernel
> architecture) carry over.  NT also has a variety of subsystems

	Excuse my flames that are about to follow. 

	WindowsNT is based on the Mach3.0 micro kernel!!!!!!!!

	I total pissed off that you can all sit there talking volumes
about Windows NT vs Mach, and not one of you have a clue that :-

	1. such a discussion is null and void since mach is not an
		operating system, and WindowNT is!

	2. even worse, mach is part of windowsNT 


	I'd suggest that you :-


	1. Go and do some reading before hitting the keyboard with replies

	2. Don't run about make replies unless you actual have some
		even small idea about the subject.

	No wonder the network suffers so much noise!!!!
	No wonder we are suffering bandwidth problems.

Flame off!

	Cheers
		Mark :)


ps.
	I just noticed that one of you ~~@#####rrrr #icks if from microsoft.com

what is the world coming too, they don't even know their own product ???

	Oh well...
	
-- 
Mark Garrett	Internet:  mark@arvak.une.edu.au	Phone: 	+61 66 20 3859
   University of New England, Northern Rivers, Lismore NSW Australia.
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: gip200@sci.kun.nl (gip2 course)
Subject: Re: Mach vs. NT?
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:33:56 GMT

In <BzG3Gw.1s6@alsvid.une.edu.au> mark@alsvid.une.edu.au (Mark Garrett Internet: mark@arvak.une.edu.au Phone: +61 66 20 3859) writes:

>From article <1992Dec12.000250.14799@microsoft.com>, by jhenshaw@microsoft.com (Jeff Henshaw):
>> 
>> In article  <Bz2LFA.7qM@eis.calstate.edu>,
>> cwilder@eis.calstate.edu (Charlotte Wilder) writes...
>> |
>> | I don't know if NT is "loosely" based on Mach, but I do know that NT will
>> | be a microkernel based operating system.  
>> 
>> I think it would be safer to say that NT is "loosely based on
>> Mach concepts" since some of the ideas (like a microkernel
>> architecture) carry over.  NT also has a variety of subsystems

>	WindowsNT is based on the Mach3.0 micro kernel!!!!!!!!

Any references?

>	1. such a discussion is null and void since mach is not an
>		operating system, and WindowNT is!

Mach is an operating system, but not a 'complete' OS. I.e. it doesn't do
everything but only several things.

>	2. even worse, mach is part of windowsNT 

Again, can you give any proof?

>	1. Go and do some reading before hitting the keyboard with replies

Read what?

Newsgroups: comp.os.mach,comp.unix.misc,comp.sys.sun.misc
From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer)
Subject: Where to find 'mach' for SPARCs ?
Organization: Private UUCP, Martin Cracauer, Norderstedt, Germany
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 10:05:00 GMT

Could anybody tell me, where I can find 'mach' from CMU university
for SPARCs?

Thanks
-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer,    cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de
Waldstrasse 200, W-2000 Norderstedt, Germany
Tel.: +49 / 522 18 29, Fax.: +49 / 522 85 36
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: saeed@watson.ibm.com (Saeed Jaffer)
Subject: Need benchmarks for Mach (2.6 & 3.0)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:45:07 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

I believe I am posting to the right newsgroup for this query.

Where can I find benchmarks for Mach?  I am not just looking for the
user-level type prevalent in SPEC, but source code that would allow me to
investigate different aspects of kernel performance, such as kernel
entry-exit, context switching, etc.  

What ftp sites have the source code for such benchmarks?  Do any of you out
there have any of your own that I could take a look at?  I would also be
interested in results other people have reached on different machines. 
E-mail responses preferred.  Thanks in advance.


--saeed jaffer       
saeed@watson.ibm.com 
saeed@athena.mit.edu
From: alain@cs.concordia.ca (SARRAF)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: task_self() returns invalid port!
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:09:44 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec

Hi Everyone,


	I am experiencing a peculiar problem. What I am trying to do
is restore the state of a task as saved previously on secondary storage.
This is done by having a task perform a unix_fork and then
using the child task as a "template" for the virtual memory 
information that was previously stored to disk. (Note
that the state of the task is also saved using a child task
as a virtual memory template in a similar way.) 

 Once the parent task has recopied the virtual memory
from disk to the child task (using vm_region,vm_allocate, vm_protect,
vm_inherit) it kills itself and lets the child continue.


	This works fine except for when I try to do anything
dealing with the port space. The problem is that after restoring 
the state into the child , I try to perform a port_allocate but
it doesn't work. I pinpointed the error to the fact that
task_self() is returning an invalid port. I have no idea
why. Is there something I should watch out for when 
deallocating the child's memory to give room for the 
new virtual memory?


There is a paper in the October 1990 Usenix conference called
"Transparent Recovery of Mach Applications" by
Goldberg, Gopal, Li, Strom, and Bacon. This paper discusses
a similar scenario. Does anyone have any information
of what I may be doing wrong? Any help would
be GREATLY appreciated.

Alain

PS. Could you please send any replies to alain@cs.concordia.ca as
I don't usually get a chance to read news. Thanks again
From: jlothian@castle.ed.ac.uk (J Lothian)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: Re: Mach vs. NT?
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:16:51 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University Computing Service

In article <92344.175322ASODL@ASUACAD.BITNET>, ASODL@ASUACAD.BITNET writes:
|> I am looking to obtain a little feedback on a few impressions that I have about
|> this "new" kid on the block called Windows NT.  First, can someone tell me what
|> the "NT" stands for?

'New Technology', as far as I know.

James

-- 

-------------------------------------------------------
James Lothian        |      "It's life, Jim, 
james@uk.ac.ed.caad  |   but not as we know it"
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: cat@pluto.dss.com (Iain Wacey)
Subject: Shared memory under Mach 3.0
Organization: Datability, Carlstadt, NJ
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:06:38 GMT


 I have an application that runs under SunOs 4.1 using shared
memory.  I am trying to move it to Mach 3.0.  Is there a way
to simulate shared memory under Mach or do I have to re-write
the program to use ports and messages?  Any help is
appreciated.

Iain Wacey
cat@pluto.dss.com
From: alain@cs.concordia.ca (SARRAF)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: task_self() return value
Date: 15 Dec 92 01:01:07 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec



Hi.

	This is a followup question to my previous
post. Does anybody know if the port value returned
from the task_self() call is returned from within
the kernel address space or the user task address space?

Thanks

Alain

Xref: sparky comp.object:4581 comp.lang.c++:18150 comp.lang.eiffel:1382 comp.lang.objective-c:695 comp.lang.smalltalk:2566
From: fron@uniriv.vbo.dec.com (Annick Fron 5894)
Newsgroups: comp.object,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: Re: TOOLS Europe '93 Program
Keywords: OO Conference, Tutorials, Workshops, March 1993 (long)
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:35:50 GMT
Reply-To: fron@uniriv.vbo.dec.com (Annick Fron 5894)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


Please notice announcement of ESUG meeting (European Smalltalk Users Group)
at Tools 93, march 12th.
The meeting will be open to newcomers.

Contacts:

Generic: esug@ibp.fr
Annick Fron fron@sophia.inria.fr
Philippe Krief: krief@laforia.ibp.fr
Rob Vens: vens@bdk.rug.nl
Isabelle Borne: ib@ehei.ehei.fr
From: bongalon@tcad05.intel.com (Ben Bongalon)
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: Re: Object hidden state and side effects
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:34:34 GMT
Reply-To: bongalon@tcad05.intel.com (Ben Bongalon)
Organization: Intel Corporation, Santa Clara, CA USA


In article <knight.724558491@cunews>, knight@mrco.carleton.ca (Alan
Knight) writes:
|> In <1992Dec17.001046.27321@crd.ge.com> eaker@ukulele.crd.ge.com
(Chuck Eaker) writes:
|> 
|> >the domain of imaginary numbers. If we implement this domain as
|> >instances of a class that we create on the fly as needed, we could
|> >well have multiple instances of the same imaginary number around. 
|> >Thus, it is possible to confuse tests for identity with tests for
|> >equality.  But ordinary people don't think of this as being
|> >possible with imaginary numbers because two imaginary numbers are
|> >identical iff they are equal.

i'm lost here.  as i see it, the only way one would have multiple
instances of the same imaginary number around is if a value can be
represented in multiple ways.  but how can that occur if all expressions
that can be used to represent a value evaluates to the same thing?

|> Strangely enough, I think the two sides may be beginning to understand
|> each other. It is true that if you use identity tests instead of
|> equality, that it is possible to distinguish multiple instances of
|> classes where this doesn't make very good intuitive sense.
|> 
|> However, what does identity mean for a value. If you tell a
|> mathematician that two imaginary numbers are identical iff they are
|> equal she will probably ask you what identity means?

Here's an example:

  1 + 2i  ==   (3-2) + (6/3)i  ==  1 + 2(i^5)

  they all evaluate to the same value and can be normalized into
  a unique representation.  thus, all 3 expressions are equal
  (identical).  how can one get multiple copies?


Ben Bongalon
Intel Corporation
From: Reinhold Gebhardt <gebhardt@rog1.rog.rwth-aachen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: Object-oriented Software Engineering  Cooperation
Date: 16 Dec 1992 11:08:16 GMT
Organization: Rogowski Institut, RWTH Aachen
Distribution: Europe
NNTP-Posting-Host: espresso.rog.rwth-aachen.de
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
X-XXMessage-ID: <A754CD24FC028225@espresso.rog.rwth-aachen.de>
X-XXDate: Wed, 16 Dec 92 12:10:12 GMT

Hello, 

We have an development environment which combines object-oriented design
with object-oriented implementation and fulfils actual and fundamental
requirements to software engineering. Its implemented in Smalltalk/V
(OS/2-version).
We are looking for partners (software companies) who are interested in
object-oriented techniques and who would like to get more practical
experience within a realistic development project. The ESSI-project
provides a good chance in doing so. Have a look to the informations about
ESSI. If you would like to get more information about our system, please
contact me.

The European Software and Systems Initiative - ESSI

The European Software and Systems Initiative, Essi, aims to secure a
sharp increase in the productivity and capabilities of systems and
software engineers by encouraging the take-up and use of modern system
design and program production techniques. A two-year pilot phase has been
proposed, with ECU 100 million of Community funding, as part of the
information technology area of the Commission's 1990-94 Framework
Programme for research and technology development.

Essi will address these issues in three main ways:
. Application experiments: Essi will provide funding for people working
in the applications development field to try out and report on advanced
methods and tools. The intention is to reach software project leaders,
key opinion-formers who are in a position to introduce and foster the use
of new techniques.
Training: Essi will establish a mechanism for funding a large number of
activities aimed at establishing the better understanding and acceptance
by software practitioners of the best methods and tools available,
underpinning this with provision for the upgrading of existing skills.
Dissemination: Essi will set up Community-wide dissemination activities
to link developers with users and ensure the rapid transfer of new and
proven tools and methods into industry. Software clearing houses
(repositories of tools, methods and environments accessible to developers
and users) will play a major part in this process. This strand of Essi is
directed towards individual users and software developers, and the
creation and widespread adoption of standards is a particular objective.

Dr. R. Gebhardt (Fax: 0241/807605)