HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 5 Jan 1993 05:08:43 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <1993Jan4.221556.2622@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>How convenient.

To be blunt, kiss my ass.

>Look for what image?!  How do you delete something from memory, by just
>overwriting it with zeros?  If you went screwing around the memory of the

INGENIOUS.

>machine, no wonder it died!  The whole concept of deleting the DOS kernel
>from memory just doesn't make any sense.

Why not?  You zero your memory when you allocate it, don't you?  If it
wasn't in use, what would be wrong with zeroing it out?  Listen,
dummy, if it wasn't okay to zero (or in the case I'll mention, fill
with junk) unused memory, MungWall wouldn't work.

Guess what?  It fills unallocated memory with junk.

>Not when running FastDisk!

While a bit kludgey in philosophy, explain why the system died when I
zeroed the MS-DOS image from ram while Windows was running.

Try it on your system.  It's REALLY not hard, hell, I'm giving you
credit.

Greg


--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
(:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: () :) :) :) Wubba, the Dark Angel :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
From: lkoop@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (LaMonte Koop)
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:15:29 -0600
Reply-To: lkoop@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: SCS GP/Engineering Cluster

In article <1993Jan11.170315.8297@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>Donald R Lloyd (don@chopin.udel.edu) wrote:
>:
>: Every once in a while around here someone
>: brings up the posting on an internal bulletin board at IBM in the early days
>: of OS/2 development in which one of the programmers said something like,
>: "Why don't we just buy AmigaOS from Commodore and save ourselves four years?".
>:
>
>Yes, Amiga fanatics have been there from the beginning.

    Jerry, why do you insist on making anything said with respect that perhaps
the software engineers who developed OS/2 were influenced by AmigaOS out to be
a farce?  Why should this bother you?  I remember reading a post from you some
time back indicating that you were here to maintain an "even balance" between
fanatacism and reality.  To be honest, more and more of your posts indicate
a as much of a fanatacism AGAINST the Amiga as a viable platform as you 
accuse Amiga users of being TOWARDS the machine.
    The engineers of OS/2 did in fact look deeply into the characteristics of
AmigaOS, as well as many other OS ideas.  In fact, if you talk to some of them,
they were deeply impressed with AmigaOS in many ways, and do maintain a high
respect for it.  This is not saying what is better, just that one OS design
does influence another.  

                 ----------------------------------------
           LaMonte Koop -- SCSU Electrical/Computer Engineering
 Internet: lkoop@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu -OR- f00012@kanga.stcloud.msus.edu
              "You mean you want MORE lights on this thing???"
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:49:09 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

hume smith (emcoop@bnr.ca) wrote:
:
: I'd like to know how it is that the Amiga OS
: seems to take so little memory, and others so much.  Is there a lot in ROM?
:

Nah, there's not too much in ROM -- just too little in the OS.  [Ducking]

BTW, how big is 3.0?  Can it all fit on a single diskette?  I don't know why
I'm asking this; it just seems like the AmigaDroids find it vitally important
to run their OS from floppy diskettes.

:
: Hume Smith                                    My name is little Bongo
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: bmccnnll@unix1.tcd.ie (Barry McConnell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Date: 5 Jan 93 00:24:06 GMT
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin

In <1993Jan4.114316.11600@klaava.Helsinki.FI> lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad) writes:

>MB is so objective: approximately 2 lines of Amiga OS strenghts, and
>70 of weaknesses...:)

That is good. We constantly need reminding of the many flaws the Amiga has. 
That post from Mark was actually - IMHO - well thought-out, and lacked most of
the usual things which people flame him on. He made a lot of good points, I
thought, so let's get to work on them!

Barry.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: fihsu@athena.mit.edu (Hsu I-wei)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:08:17 GMT

In article <C0p5nt.vA@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Paul Prescod) writes:
>>Do you really wonder?  If so, internal modem Supra 2400zi (2400 + v.42bis)
>>goes for $119 at Creative Computers... if not, thanks for wasting my time.
>
>Oh, twice the price of a PC internal modem?  And how much does a 14.4
>or better cost?

Twice the price of a Supra 2400 baud + v.42bis internal modem for the PC? Or
twice the price of the cheapest internal PC modem (2400 + v.42bis)? You want
14.4k? Fine, Supra FAXModem 14.4k internal for around $340-380. Just take any
PC internal modem and tack on $40-80 and you have how much it costs to have
an internal modem running on an A2000/A3000. Happy now?

>
>>You could say the same for a 33MHz 486. The system performance doesn't double,
>>but it sure as hell improves by quite a bit. So which do you get, a 33MHz 486
>>or a 50MHz 486DX2? Kinda depends on what you want to do on your clone, huh.
>
>Yep.  But neither of them is a "sham" or "scam," they are just differnt
>options, like a 486/66.

If someone came up to you and offered to sell you a 486/50, what would one of
your questions be? Perhaps "Is it a 486/50 DX or a clock-doubled 486/25?" if
you realize that they aren't the same. But believe it or not, some people don't
know that a 486DX/50 system and a 486DX2/50 system offer different performance,
and I'm sure that PC clone makers are glad of that.

Francis
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd)
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:01:29 GMT

In <1ifvblINNb48@uwm.edu> bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>
>Eww.  Okay.  JRComm is lovely, but either 1) Wait for Terminus, or 2)
>Dump it for something else.  I use Term.  I'll decide about Terminus
>when it's released, but I like Term.  I like the fact that it's
>source-released.  I like the fact that it does exactly what I want.  I

     OK, I'll bite.  What's Terminus?

     My big problem with Term is that it uses XPRZModem.library, which seems
to start getting error messages at the slightest sign of another running
task...

>Soft-Logik's full of a bunch of thick-headed dimwits.  There's your
>answer.  I don't know of any other DTP packages that support AREXX,
>but I'm not versed in DTP.

     ProPage has ARexx, Saxon might, not sure.  I like PageStream, but 
SoftLogik is going to have to pick up the pace a little to keep up with
some of what Gold Disk has done with PPage lately.
 


-- 
Don Lloyd                / "No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of \
don@chopin.udel.edu      | another computer is a kludge.  It has nothing to do |
GeNIE: D.LLOYD7          \ with the Intel CPU"  - Jerry Shekhel                /
BIX: DRL  
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: bill@snoopy (Bill Poitras)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Reply-To: bill@west.msi.com
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:44:16 GMT

Jack Radigan (jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov) wrote:
: bill@snoopy (Bill Poitras) writes:
:   I still stand by my assertion that an overlayed program is a better win,
: the applications authors (no matter how large it is) have much more knowledge
: about the construction of the program than the OS ever could.

1) If overlays are so much better, then why are they only used on systems
that need them.  I have never heard a 32-bit Unix ever using them.  Why?
Probably because paging is better.

2) Overlays seem like they might add too much work to the programmer.  If
you think all programs, not matter how many megabytes they are, should
use overlays, then perhaps you can start an argument for all programs to
be written in assembly.  

I agree that a carefully tuned program using overlays in some cases might
beat demand paging, but I think the effort is too great to be productive.

:   Think about it, if you're using overlays smartly you're going to group 
: common sections of code into each overlay segment, it's definately going
: to be less of a burden on a VM manager as well since it's going to be dealing
: with a net smaller code segment at any given time.

You think about it.  A demand paging system add NO extra programming
time, an overlay system would add enormous amount of programming time
for a large program.  Ask the implementors of nethack (a very portable
game), who only set up an overlay system for the MS-DOS port because it
needs it.  I'm sure they spent quite a bit of time puting the overlay
system into place.

--
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Bill Poitras    | Molecular Simulations Inc.    | Tel (408)522-9229       |
| (bill)          | Sunnyvale, CA USA             |                         | 
|                 | FAX (408)732-0831             | bill@west.msi.com       |
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:41:56 GMT

In article <38351@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes:
>
>But VM has a negative performance impact.  For instance, 1) its non-trivial
>to calculate a good working set.  (much less an optimal working
>set).  Non-trivial things take CPU time.

It's certainly trivial if you're not using more VM than you have RAM.  The
question was whether or not VM imposes an overhead even when it's not swapping.

> 2) There is additional
>overhead every task switch, as the proper set of mmu tables
>need to be loaded.

Only if you're allocating a different virtual memory space to each task.  If
all you're doing is adding VM, and not trying to protect tasks from each other,
there's no need for this on an Amiga.

> 3) All memory accesses must go through the MMU;
>on many processors going directly to physical memory is a cycle
>faster.

True.  Does anyone in the know have real figures on how much of a hit the
MMUs in the '030 and '040 add?

> 4) DMA I/O operations get a lot more complicated, since
>the MMU is usually processor side only.

Also true, and a point I'd forgotten.

>As I said, I think VM is a good thing (and I wish people
>would stop arguing against it!).  But you have to be aware
>of its downside, as well, if you want to discuss it intelligently.

It also helps if you know what you're talking about.  Too many people around
here don't.

>-- 
>andy finkel		andy@cbmvax.commodore.com


-- 
David Meiklejohn (davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au)
 - PC's, Unix, and networks by day, Amigas by night...
Currently residing in Mareeba, Far North Queensland, Australia
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: clone prices & doom & gloom
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 10:41:14 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.210058.7501@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>John Carver (John.Carver@launchpad.unc.edu) wrote:
>:
>: I just saw, at a major computer store, a 486/33 machine from a major clone
>: vendor advertized for $999.  This $999 price *inluded* a 15 inch monitor,
>: SVGA graphics in 1024x768x8, and a 2400 modem.
>:
>
>Careful.  That could be a Cyrix 486, which only has 1K internal cache and no
>FPU.

You do have to be careful, yes.  A couple of months ago I had some staff here
ask me why some "486"s being sold locally were so much cheaper than the ones
I'd recommended to them (yes, that's right folks - I'm an Amiga advocate, and
proud of it, but I almost always recommend PCs to people who come to me for
advice.  :-(  ).  Anyway, I checked it out, and they were using Cyrix 486SLCs.
Not only have they a 1k cache and no FPU, but the SLC has a 16-bit external
data bus.  It's designed to be a fast replacement for the 386SX.  That's fine,
but you do have to remember what you're buying.

However, even if the machine above is a Cyrix (DLC, I presume - I've never
heard of a 33 MHz SLC), the CPU is still faster than a 68030, yet that system
is in the A1200's price range, which is only a 14 MHz '020.  Mind you, the
A1200 still has some advantages over the 486 system, like more colours, better
sound (more consistently supported, as well), better OS (that $999 doesn't
include OS/2 pre-installed, with enough RAM to run it comfortably, does it?),
cleaner system architecture, complete with a 32-bit expansion slot, a PCMCIA
slot, and probably better manuals as well.

Still, Commodore won't be competitive with the 486 boxes until they can get a
mid-range '030 AGA system out.  Supposedly this will be the A4000 with an
'030 CPU board.  That's ok by me, but I wonder how cheap they can make it?
Not as cheap as the cheapest 486s, but as long as they can come reasonably
close, I'll be happy.


-- 
David Meiklejohn (davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au)
 - PC's, Unix, and networks by day, Amigas by night...
Currently residing in Mareeba, Far North Queensland, Australia
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Mac is not ideal (was Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths)
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:45:11 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA

In article <C0EvKw.H42@starnine.com> mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) writes:
>>It isn't the GUI that makes the Mac look better to 
>>me as a developer for both Mac and Amiga.  The Mac
>>is infinetly better at producing paper as one need
>>only open a printer port that acts just like  a 
>>window port.  One uses the same drawing instructions
>>and the result goes correctly to your printer.  The
>
>It's about the same on the Amiga.  You use the normal
>graphic routines to draw into a rastport, then blast the
>finished thing to the printer with one printer-independant
>system call to the printer device.
>
>Have you ever programmed the Amiga?
>
>>application does not have to have its own printer
>>driver!!
>
>Applications on the Amiga do not need their own printer
>drivers, either.  Some come with standard system drivers
>but I've never bought an Amiga app that required a special
>printer driver (including paint & word processing
>programs).

   Every program that I have that is oriented toward getting good printed
output includes its own printer drivers.  This includes PageStream, ProPage,
and WordPerfect.  If the Amiga printer drivers are adequate, why does every
developer of a graphical word processor or DTP program always include a 
replacement for the Amiga's printer drivers?

   You said that the Amiga and Mac printing systems were pretty much the same.
They aren't.  The big difference is that Mac applications route graphics
through QuickDraw, which provides structured graphics, and send font names to
the printer drives instead of the actual fonts.  

   On the Amiga, the printer drivers are fairly 'dumb'.  They include only
the barest of facilities for translating the output for a specific printer.
When an Amiga application send graphical data to the printer drivers, it
is send in the form of bitmapped graphics.  No structured graphic capabilities
are provided in the Amiga's print system.  When an Amiga application sends
a font to the printer drivers, the font is sent just like another piece of
bitmapped data.  So that if you have a document with CompuGraphic structured
fonts, the fonts get sent as bitmaps, resulting in jaggie-hell on most
printers.

   BTW, this is why so many Amiga applications replace the Amiga's printer
drivers completely.  They are built to work with bitmaps and only bitmaps,
and have no facilities for working with structured graphics or structured
fonts, so that getting really good output with the Amiga's printer drivers is
just about impossible.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:33:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.215326.20302@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>Skip Sauls (skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu) wrote:
>:
>: Okay, the Orchid S3 based Farenheit board is $290 in Computer Shopper and
>: I've heard that the UltraSound is around $130.  Add that to the price of
>: the Gateway 4SX-25 and you're price is over $1900.  Sort of takes you out
>: of A1200 territory, doesn't it?
>
>Really?  What does an A1200 cost, with a big hard drive, nice monitor, and
>32-voice 16-bit digital sound?

Jerry, did you see the original comparison?  It was between a 386sx from
Gateway and A1200 with HD and SVGA monitor.  Someone then said why not
spend $200 more and get the 486sx, so I said fine.  You can keep pumping
money into either system to make one look better than the other, but it
has nothing to do witht the original comparison.

Why do you change the subject, qualifications, etc. to suit your needs?

Why bother with comparing a Clone to an A1200?  Do you really think that
anyone reading this newsgroup cares what sort of Clone is available?
Most people here are Amiga owners who are looking to upgrade from their
present Amiga system to a newer one such as the A1200 or A4000.  Why do
you and others think you can persuade them to suddenly dump everything
and get a Clone?  You seem to forget one crucial thing:

The most powerful whoop-ass screaming super-duper clock-double-scam local
bus 486DLXCS-66 with big-ass hard drive, 64M RAM, 360k, 1.2M, 720k, 1.44M,
and 2.88M floppies, WinSlows, a SuperMultiTurtleRolandGravisBlasterMediaPro II
for WindSlows, WinVideoTVSpigot, SEXVGA with S3 and 34020, 16 serial ports,
a game port, 237 key OmniMegaClicketyClack keyboard, 5 button optical mouse,
and a CDROM still ain't an Amiga.

Come back if and when an Amiga emulator is available.

>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
>| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
>| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
>|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+

Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Does reading this group make you depressed? The story of a victim.
From: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Psigon Matrix....do you DOUBT us??)
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:57:21 -0600
Reply-To: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: Psigon Matrix, Realm of the Possible

In article <1993Jan07.221638.1972@microsoft.com>, iank@microsoft.com (Ian Kennedy) writes:
>In article <C0G9p9.Ez1@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>In article <Ray_Hines.08b9@dream.uucp> Ray_Hines@dream.uucp (Ray Hines) writes:
>>>Sigh.  Here we go again.  Marc, do yourself a favor so you don't look like 
>>>a fool and buy some Euro mags.  Read them carefully.
>>
>>   Where do I buy them?  I can't exactly go down to the local WaldenBooks and
>>buy a European Amiga magazine.  How do I go about getting one of these 
>>magazines from deep in the heart of the U.S.?

You can go to any local Barnes & Nobels and pick them up (ya know, the company
that owns Waldenbook).

Jim
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Screeeemmmmmin fast 4000/040..YEEEEEEHA!!          X-ASOCC (CBM Blew that one)
          Jim Martin   MATRIX -- If it's made, we sell it. Almost.
  -----(612) 656-9693--                         MARTIN@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
      We're almost done with the Cray module for the EmPlanT.  :) heh
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:26:04 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Gregory R Block (bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu) wrote:
:
: >This is absolutely false.  The API has to be at a high enough level that the
: >implementation can work on simple hardware as well as advanced coprocessors.
: >Placing the API at the level of blitters and Copper lists is exactly what's
: >biting C= in the ass.
:
: And they haven't.  It's people that bang hardware that bring the
: incompatibility, nothing else.  RTG will fit invisibly into graphics.library.
:

If that's true, more power to them.  However, and I'm not pretending to be
an expert on this, isn't there a screen management API that isn't really
applicable to non-C= graphics hardware?

: Greg
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy