From: price@helios.unl.edu (Chad  Price)
Newsgroups: comp.databases
Subject: Re: Advanced Revelation information request
Date: 15 Dec 1992 23:05:26 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	
NNTP-Posting-Host: helios.unl.edu
Keywords: Revelation

clinton@acs.ucalgary.ca writes:

> > Ask some specifics, and I'd be glad to answer.

>Thanks for the offer. First a bit of the scope of our situation...

>The Alpine Club of Canada is looking into "buying into" a database
>developed for the Seattle Mountaineers in Advanced Revelation.
>Naturally, our needs are not exactly the same, but from the talks we
>have had with the person who is actually using the database, it is very
>close to our needsd: Basic membership tracking, event scheduling, hut
>bookings, donor tracking, etc. But we will have to make modifications.

>Here's the questions...

>  Relational
>	How close does it get to Codd's 12 rules?

Fairly, but some rules are intentionally broken: ARev uses "multi-valued"
fields. In other words, a single row/column intersection could contain multiple
values rather than a single value as in a completely normalized database. This
is functionally and performance-wise, a strong advantage. It is fairly typical
for a primary table to have one or more fields which are 1:many relationaships.
ARev allows this 1:many to hold true, avoids deletion and insertion anomalies,
and allows the higher performance of a single table data entry screen or report
program. 

I am of the opinion that Codd's rules are there for a starting point, and as
long as you can break the rule without incurring the penalty which the rule is
there to prevent (ie: normalization is to prevent deletion and insertion
anomalies among other things), and if by breaking the rule you gain substantial
advantages either in structure clarity or performance, or all of the above,
then you should break the rule.

>	Does it support integrity rules in the dictionary?
Not directly, but you can create "symbolic" fields which are in effect programs
to ensure data integrity, and there are hooks into the data entry screens to
allow inclusion of these symbolic fields for data validation. In fact, if you
write the validation code before you create the screen, it is automatically
included. 

>	Does it cascade deletes?
No. see above.

>  Query, Forms, Reports
>	Does it use SQL? 
Yes

> Something better or worse?
Yes. It has its own 4GL built-in

>	Does it have an interactive command line for ad-hoc queries?
Yes, and you can store the ad-hoc queries and add them to a menu.

>	Multi-table forms?
Yes

>	How easy is it to build a form?
Simple forms: trivial - there is a "Quick Paint"
Complicated forms: up to you - the entire power of the built-in R/Basic
programming language is available.

>	Data validation in forms?
Yes - see above - all the hooks are there to attach complete programs for pre-
and post- validation. There are extensive built-in validation features which
require no programming, including validation of keys in other tables.

>	Reports to screen and printer?
Yes, Alt-P sends a screen report to the printer with no extra work on the
developer's part. 

>On-screen "drawing" of reports or procedural programming?
Sort of. Reports can be "painted" on the screen. If by procedural programming,
you mean something like the FP or small-talk languages, no.

>  Programming
>	How 4GL is it?
Which part.. Some is (TCL, SQL, R/List query language), and some isn't: the
R/Basic programming language.

>Does it encourage modular programming, and is someone else's
>			code generally easy to understand?

Up to you. Separate compilation of subroutines (and functions) is available,
and after that, how diciplined is the programmer. 

>		Access to forms and reports from the programming language?
Yes
>	Access to operating system?
Within limits.
		
> Documentation
>	How does it rate?

I can't really tell. To me its quite good, but after 7-8 years of reading it, I
understand their philosophy and I know where to look for things.

>What's the availability of 3rd party books, etc.
None.

>Anything else you'd like to comment on would be appreciated.

They have a habit (management induced, from what I can tell) of releaseing new
versions in advanced-beta condition, and then releasing fixes as .01 upgrades
or making the patches available on ComuServe (GO REVELATION).
For example: Revelation G2B was an incremental upgrade/fix, and was very stable
and full-featured for its time (1985-86). Advanced Revelation 1.0, the G2B
sucessor, was junk - missing features, bugs, ... ARev 2.0 and 2.1 acheived
stability and 2.12 is a truely excellent product with _very_ few bugs. I can
develop complete applications very quickly. The building of data-entry screens
and canned reports is extremely easy. Complex reports require the same time as
in any environment where you are actually writing a program from scratch.

	 If you can
	make comparisons to Oracle on one end and R:base on the other...

Not sure I can. As to Oracle, I'm only a user under CMS. I'm not impressed with
what I've seen, and one of my Oracle-programming co-workers occasionally
wanders by when I'm working, and I've managed to impress him with quite a few
of the features of ARev 2.12

>>  There are, however, (IMHO) management problems in the company which
>>  prevent the product from becoming a mass market product.

>I'm not one to feel that a mass market product is necessarily good. Look
>at Dbase. 
Do I have to? I just had breakfast.

>How much of a machine does it need? 
The more the better. 
>RAM per user? 
Per user? good question. On a single user machine (DOS - OS/2), it wants 640KB
Base plus 2-3 MB Expanded, There is an OS/2 version, but it lags far behind the
DOS version. There is a sort-of Windows version called Open Insight which I've
just acquired and begun testing. The win version provides pretty full access to
the Windoze API, but seems like it is missing all of the quick productivity
tools present on the DOS version . OI accesses mutiple types of DOS databases
in addition to the ARev base it is built on, including dBase and Lotus
spreadsheet files.

>Disk space? 
10MB Plus data

>Is it strictly DOS? 
No - I run both the DOS and Windoze versions under OS/2, which is what I run
both at work and at home. I'm very happy with it in the multi-tasking
environment.

>Will it run on TCP/IP 

Huh? TCP/IP is an internetowrking protocol, not an OS. if you have NFS mounted
drives, there should be no problem.

>or Novell only? 

It is aware of mutiple LAN protocols, and will do record locking etc in all of
them, so the LAN versions are effectively multi-user machines when installed on
the server and run from the local workstations.

>What does a license cost?
Too much! list is >$1000, but it is available for less. I paid $250 as an
upgrade from G2B, some places like Telemart sell it for around $700. Run-times
are between $150 and $250, depending on where you get them. 5-user LAN bump
disks are around $495 (list) minus whatever discount you can find.

>Do you have an address/phone number for the company so that I can
>request their promotional literature? You don't hear much about ARev in
>this neck of the woods.

Try Elf Software in Washington state, 1-800-422-2511. This is a small
distributorship which specializes in Arev products and sponsors a bi-monthly
newsletter devoted to ARev, GRev, and Open Insight.

Revelation Technologies is 1-800-262-4747; but this is strictly a sales
office on the east coast. I think the developers are still in the Seattle area
where the company started.

Hope this helps.

chad
price@helios.unl.edu
chad@windsurf.unmc.edu



--
chad
price@helios.unl.edu
cprice@molecular.unmc.edu
Newsgroups: comp.databases