From: lawson@acuson.com (Drew Lawson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Logic and God (was: Young earth creationist logic NOT!)
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:19:59 GMT
Reply-To: lawson@aldia.UUCP (Drew Lawson)
Organization: ACUSON, Mountain View, CA

In article <1992Aug25.021757.9487@panix.com> carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink) writes:

>>>What if they were created for another purpose entirely, one which people
>>>(in general) have yet to discover?
>
>  Drew, why is that "what if" any more privileged than "What if the
>whole thing really IS just a trick by a malign supernatural being, to
>confuse us as to the age of the Earth?"  That is, why should anyone
>who hasn't had your personal spritual experience accept that postition?

I didn't mean to imply that my "what if" had greater standing than your
"what if." I was only trying to assert that my "what if" is not without
merit.  The tone of many postings here (in my reading) is that since
there are fossils, if there is a God, the fossils were MEANT to
indicate an ancient existence.

I was just trying to point out that they might have been created for an
explicit purpose, just not the one that has been guessed at.


>  And I believe you misrepresent the position of science on evolution, in 
>the following paragraph:
>
>>>What I was trying to point out here is a logic trap.  The "evolution"
>>>side of this debate takes the approach of:
>>>    - We will start with the assumption that there is no God, or that
>>>      God is not relevant to the topic at hand.
>>>    - We will not allow religious doctrines to guide our thoughts or
>>>      provide possible interpretations.
>>>After this, they reach a conclusion which they find logicly consistant
>>>and branch out from that to the conclusion that their first point (no
>>>God) is proven.  That is not logically sound.
>
>  Drew, I don't think anyone in this discussion has tried to disprove
>the existence of God.

True.  I haven't seen any explicit attempts at disproving God's
existence.  But I have seen many postings with the attitude of "We have
explained this through science, without using God.  So God has nothing
to do with it."  That may not have been the intent of the posters, but
that is how some of them (the postings) come across.

>In any case, absolutely no one has started from the assumption that
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>there is no God.

I think that is wishful on your part.


>  Drew, an honest and nonsarcastic question:  why should YOUR religious
>beliefs be used as a guide to scientists, and not other religions?

A good question.  If I may counter it with another question.  Why
should my religious views be excluded from a scientific endevor in
which I am involved?  I do not ask for my views to be imposed on all of
science.  I do ask that the veiled hostility toward religion be removed
from science.

A researcher comes to a fork in the road (figuratively speaking), and
has to choose between A and B, and chooses A.  If he is asked why he
made that choice and responds that his doctrinal learning has told him
that B is a dead-end, he is likely to be laughed to scorn.  That is the
kind of thing I want removed.  Sure, he could be wrong, but so could
the guy with the 300 page justification of choosing A over B.


>Will you accept the Babylonian view of the world as a flat surface,
>the back (as I recall) of a giant turtle swimming through an infinite
>ocean?  The Egyptian view that the sky is a goddess, the earth a god, 
>and so on?  The current view of many African groups that the Creator
>made the Earth, but then lost interest in it and turned it over to
>lesser divinities to rule?  Perhaps the current Eskimo belief that
>a masculine god made the universe by masturbation?
>
>  It's a real question, Sir:  why are your religious beliefs to be used
>as a guide to science, and not theirs?

Let them worship as they please, but DO let them worship.

-- 
Drew Lawson                      If you're not part of the solution,
lawson@acuson.com                you're part of the precipitate
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:15739 talk.origins:10638