From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:41:57 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

I will only respond to certain parts of this post and leave the rest
for others.

In article <1992Oct1.121630.13063@phillip.edu.au>, 
lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:

[...]
>   Blacks: Viewing dark skin as a curse from God, Mormonism banned black men
>   from the priesthood until a doctrinal reversal on this matter was announced
>   in 1978.
> 
>      ** Here Mormons really show their colours!! :-). This (as with many 
>      aspects of Smith's writings..which will be examined) is a reflection of
>      the attitude of society towards blacks in the early-mid 1800's. There are
>      many people today with that sort of attitude who would call themselves
>      Christians. The KKK calls itself Christian. Slavery was condoned by an
>      extremely flimsy and highly twisted interpretation of the Bible, as is
>      calling dark skin a curse. This is another example of reversal of 
>      major Mormon doctrines to suit the times.

As a Mormon, I resent the association made above between
Mormonism, the Ku Klux Klan, and slavery.   As it stands, the
statement above implies that Mormonism is in the same league as
other groups that institutionalized the physical persecution of
others, as practices or has practices such persecution.

[...]
>   Elohim: This is the name of God the Father, an individual distinct from 
>   Jehovah, who is the son of Elohim.

With regard to the Old testament, this is a controversial subject
in Mormonism, and opinions are wide and varied among Mormons. 
Therefore it is only safe to say that "Elohim and Jehovah
*generally* refer to God, the Father, and the ante-mortal Christ,
repsectively but not *exclusively*.


[...]
>   Hell: The wicked go to a hell of torment, but all are eventually resurrected
>   and pass into the telestial kingdom. Only "sons of perdition" who have given
>   themselves over to Satan remain there forever.
> 
>     ** Again, a non-Biblical/anti-Biblical doctrine. The story in Luke 16 of 
>     Lazarus and the rich man tells us that there is no way a soul can cross
>     between heaven and hades (v26). In Rev 20:14 "Then death and Hades were
>     cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death". This doesn't look
>     like heaven to me!!!

This is mis-representing LDS teaching.
Permit me to try and illustrate:

                          Ante-mortal
                           Existence
                               \/
                             Birth
                               \/
                             Mortal
                           Existence
                               \/
Applying yor terms           Death
to LDS teaching,               \/
you are saying              Partial
Luke 16 ans Rev. 20        Judgement
refer to this             /         \
point----------->    Paradise  |  Prison
                          \         /
                          Resurrection
                               \/
            +------------Final Judgement--------------+
            |              |          |               |
  +->     Outer   |  Telestial  |  Terrestrial  |  Celestial
  |     Darkness  |   Kingdom   |    Kingdom    |   Kingdom
  |
  +-----------------Whereas LDS apply those
                 references to mean this point.

[...]
>   Jesus Christ: According to Mormonism Jesus Christ was one of the spirit sons
>   of the God Elohim. Jesus was was Jehovah, the God of the old testament. God 
>   the Father visited Mary and had marital relations with her so that Jesus
>   could be born with a human body. 

No, there is no explicit Mormon teaching that teaches this.
The only thing that Mormons teach is that God, the Father is the
father of Jesus Chirst, not the Holy Ghost.

There is no LDS doctrine that explains in unambiguous terms what
the *method* of conception was.

[...]
>   Salvation: Because of Christ's atonement everyone will partake of what 
>   Mormons call unconditional or general salvation, ressurection from the dead.

This seems a bit unclear.  Mormons believe that all mankind,
anyone that has ever lived, will be resurrected regardless of
what they do or didn't do in this life, or what they did or
didn't believe in.

Beyond that there is no "unconditional or general salvation" in
LDS teaching.

The closest thing to it is the concept that all except the sons
of perdition will be saved in a kingdom of glory.  "Outer
darkness" is a kingdom, but it has no glory.

>   Conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom
>   and is a complex matter depending on such things as membership in the LDS
>   church, obedience to its ordinances, and so on. 

Including belief in Jesus Christ, repentance from sin, and faith
in God.

>   Even beyond this full 
>   salvation, available only to faithful Mormons who have gone through temple
>   ceremonies; those who obtain it are exalted and become Gods.

It is available to all.
Those that don't receive what Mormons think are "necessary"
ordinances, can receive them by proxy.  This includes baptism and
the temple ceremonies.

[...]
> Some Mormons will reply that Smith's early death
> caused the corrections to remain unfinished but in a letter writted on the
> 2-July-1833, Smith stated that he had finished translating the scriptures.(
> History of the church Vol 1,p368). Since the work of revision started in 1831
> and the Book of Mormon was published in 1830, this can only refer to the 
> Bible.

Why could it not refer to the Book of Abraham?

[...]

> Also, the origin of the Book of Mormon is very dubious. Smith received 
> revelation from the angel Moroni - who is supposed to be the resurrected son
> of an ancient prophet-historian called Mormon - as to the whereabouts of 
> certain gold tablets writen by Mormon. Included were two stones set like 
> glasses by which he translated the "reformed Egyptian" characters. After this
> both the tablets and stones were taken away by Moroni. The Bible on the other
> hand is supported by thousands of historical documents and was translated by
> learned scholars. The BoM was "translated" by Smith using occult means, which 
> the Bible comes down upon heavily. 

Since when are the urim and thummin "occult means"

David Whitmer is the *only* person to ever state that Joseph
Smith dictated the Book of Mormon, word for word to his scribes
while looking into peep-stones placed in a hat and covering his
face with the hat so that no light could enter.

David Whitmer was never a first-hand witness to the translation
process of the Book of Mormon.  Joseph Smith was the only one,
and the specific details he gave were that it was done by the
power of God.

His scribes report that he never asked for the last line to be
read back to him during the translation.

Most LDS believe that, through the power of God, Joseph was able
to read the writing on the plates and understand the ideas that
were trying to be expressed.  He then used his *own* words to
clothe those ideas in English.  Thus the translation is not
absolutely word perfect, but the concepts presented are close to
what the original authors intended.

[...]
>   1Nephi 16:10,16
>   And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and
>   went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld
>   upon the ground a round ball of curious workmanship; and it was
>   of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one
>   pointed the way wither we should go into the wilderness....And we
>   did follow the direction of the ball.
> 
> It appears that a compass was found and indeed later the word
> compass is used [11] in 1Nephi. Apparently this was supposed to
> be found in 600 B.C. but  history tells us that the compass
> wasn't used until 1100 A.D. by the Chinese. [12] and an
> encyclopedia says that it first appeared in European Literature
> about the 12th century A.D.[13]

This is an example of Joseph Smith providing an english word to
approximate the meaning of the idea.

The ball mentioned above is also referred ot as "the directors"
If not similar in function, at least "compass" expresses the idea
that the device was used for providing guidance and direction.

>   1Nephi 18:25
>   And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we
>   journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts of every kind, both the
>   cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse...
> 
> This shows how the BoM makes historical errors. Horses were not
> introduced to the western hemisphere until about 16th Century
> A.D., this verse is supposed  to be referring to about 6 B.C.[14]
> There is also some speculation as to why a castrated bull (ox)
> would be roaming around!!

And it also refers to the "goat" and the "wild goat".  What's the
difference?  Again, maybe these were the closest approximations
Joseoh Smith could come up with at the time he translated.

What's the difference between an ox and a steer?
How many people know the difference between a Bull, a sterr and
an ox.

[...]
>   Jacob 2:26-27

>   Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people
>   shall do like unto them of old. Wherefore, my brethren, hear
>   me, and hearken to the word of the  Lord: For there shall not
>   be any man among you have save it one wife; and concubines he
>   shall have none. 
>  
> Mormons have in the past taught and practiced polygamy. This 
> verse would seem to contradict that practice. 

"Seem" is correct, since you omitted the qualifying statements in
the following verses like: "unless I shall raise up seed" and "I
will command my people otherwise".

Monogamy, then is the rule.
Polygamy is the exception to the rule.

[...]

> The book of Abraham was "translated" by Smith from some actual
> papyrus containing Egyptian Hieroglyphics. 
[...]

> In 1967, the papyrus was found and was identified as the one 
> Smith used by Mormon scholars[17].  Modern day scholars both
> Mormon and non-Mormon have both come to the conclusion that the
> text was from the 'Book of Breathings' and had absolutely no
> resemblance to the book of Abraham. 

True.  And mordern day scholars, both Mormon and non-Mormon have
decided that the papyrus discovered in 1967 is not the same one
Joseph Smith trnaslated, but rather just one part of the paryri
that came into Joseph's hands.

(Where is Jay Windley when you need him?)

The paprus discovered does not bear much resemblance to the
description that Joseph Smith gave of the papyrus he translated.

[...]
> The LDS' keep extensive genealogies for this purpose,
> which violates 1 Tim 1:4 and Tit 3:9 which teach us not to
> keep endless genealogies. 

LDS genealogies are not endless.  If keeping a geneaology is so
bad, why does the New testament contain two of them and the Old
testament many of them?
[...]
>     The Plurality of Gods. 

Where have you been?
William Hamblin addressed this just last week.

>   In Doctrines and Covenants secs 29,84,88,112 and more, Smith
> prophesied the  imminent return of Jesus Christ, the destruction
> of the wicked and many signs that would attest to this. In 112
> Smith said Christ would return in his lifetime  "I am with him,
> and my hand shall be over him; and the keys which I have given
> unto him, and also to youward, shall not be taken from him till I
> come." The return of Christ has obviously not happened over 150
> years later.  Even if the "prophecy" meant the LDS Church rather
> than Smith (I don't think the language allows that but I'm sure
> Mormons will disagree), isn't 150 years too long for an imminent
> return,

Define "imminent" according to God's timetable.

Here is a summary taken from Ankberg & 
> Weldon comparing certain beliefs.
>  
> Mormonism                               Christianity 
> ---------------------------------------------------- 
[...]
>                        GOD 
> Tritheism/Polytheistic                 Trinity/Monotheistic 

Mormons are not polytheistic.
The correct term is Henotheistc.
There is s big difference.

[...]
> Organiser of eternal matter             Creator of matter from nothing 
[...]
>  
>                        JESUS 
[...]
> Created                                 Eternal 

If LDS teach that all matter is uncreate as you state above, then
Jesus, and all the rest of us are all eternal.

[...]
>                         SALVATION 
> By works                               By grace 

No, by a combination of works and faith.
You make it sound like Mormons believe is salvation by works
alone.

This also seems to exclude Catholics which believe that there are
some necessary works for salvation.

> Denies Biblical atonement               Affirms attonement 

Maybe in your opinion, but LDS do believe in the Atnement of
Jesus Christ.

--

Again, if I have not responded to something here, is is *not*
because I agree with what was stated, only that others can better
respond to them than I can.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
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