From: d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi)
Subject: Re: Jihad in Islam (was Re:Islam Revealed #1
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:48:20 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.190912.5519@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, muttiah@thistle.ecn.purdue.edu (Ranjan S Muttiah) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan11.153815.17814@kth.se> d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi) writes:
|> >In article <1993Jan10.204803.20891@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, muttiah@thistle.ecn.purdue.edu (Ranjan S Muttiah) writes:
|> >|> In article <1993Jan10.130329.28120@kth.se> d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> Ok, do you agree then that Salmon Rushdie deserves the death sentence ?
|> >
|> >My personal opinion is yes. But there are a lot of other Muslims who wouldn't
|> >agree with me on this point.....
|> 
|> But what type of offense did Rushdie commit ?  Sure he wrote a lousy book that
|> I wouldn't spend a penny on.  But that is his right to express.  Why try to
|> kill someone for that ?  Where's the tolerance for other people in all
|> of this ??

A Muslim Scholar by the name Ahmed Deedad (may the doors of Paradise 
always be open to him) told NBC and ABC in the US that if he was given 
*ONLY* 5 min to explain about the *TRUE* case with Rushdie he would give 
them 50 000 $.

They *REFUSED*!!!!!!!

So which is the case with Rushdie?
First of all Rushdie was given 800 000 $ by the publisher Viking/Penguin 
in "advance money" *BEFORE* he wrote the Book.
Nothing wrong with giving anyone advance money but *800 000 $* that 
is alot of money...
Why would anyone give a Z-level writer 800 000 $ in advance??? You don't 
have to be Sherlock Holmes to understand that it smells fishy.

Salman knew exactly what he did. He knew that his book would cause alot
of reaction and it was because of that he wrote it. There is actually 
*nothing* of value in his book but it is instead only written for insults.
If someone insult you then s/he isn't doing that because s/he likes you
but so that you should react. And as you know we Muslims take our religion 
seriously. For example he portrays the wives of the Prophet as whores!!!
Were is his proof that they were actually whores???? If you tell him bring
me your proof he will answer: Eyy it is *only* fiction!!!! You are insult-
ing the wives of the Prophet which God in the Holy Quran says is like our
own mothers and you tell me it is only fiction. Call your own mother whore 
but leave the wives of the Prophet alone. They are as our mothers.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(33:6)"The Prophet is closer to the believers than they are themselves, 
and his wives are (as) their mothers; "

Before the book got published a guy from India working in Viking Penguin 
read it and appealed to Rushdie not to publish it as many people will 
get offended and die for it.
And Rushdie said:" I know what I`m doing."
He appealed again to Rushdie but Rushdie repeated the same statement : 
"I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING."

A person who *KNOWS* that people will die because of his *GREED* and 
because he want to be *FAMOUS* isn't worth forgiving.

Every person has the *RIGHT* to write what ever they want.*BUT* they 
have to be responsible for it too. Rushdie isn't a child, he did what 
he did *KNOWING* exactly what he was doing, therefore he also have to 
stand for it.

Btw the "death penalty " wasn't given at once.
6 months *BEFORE* Saudi-, Egyptian-, Algerian-, Jordanian, and other 
newspapers told Rushdie that he should take that book back, several of 
times.

Rushdie was given *SEVERAL* of chances to take the book back and by that
become forgiven.

The reaction that later started wasn't only for Rushdies book, it was
a reaction against all stuff that has been thrown on us Muslims. Rush-
dies book became the final thing that made us lose our temper totally.

And even if you do not agree with the deathpenalty you have to give the
Ayatollah credit for *proclaiming* it and not do it directly as the CIA 
and Mossad always do....

Lets forget that he in for example p. 539 in his devilish book assassinate 
Rama the 7th incarnation of god according to Hindu religion as a lecher, one 
given to excessive sexual cravings and debauchery, and the *DEMON-KING* is
portrayed as a righteous man. And that Sita is painted as a flirt.
Let us forget what he says about Hinduism and Islam.

Well, lets take a quick glance at this masterpiece of Rushdie.

Let us take a look concerning what he says about black people:
Page 461 ".. Nigger eat white man`s shit .."

Oww, first *NIGGER* and then white man's *SHIT*.
What a *BEAUTIFUL* book.
So the black man like eating the white mans shit.
But what about the "niggers" shit?

Page 529 "..' Black shit is bad'..."

So white shit is good but black shit is bad.
I wonder, has Rushdie tasted shit???

But what does he say about white women?
Well, lets take a look.

Page 261 ".. White women - never mind fat, Jewish, non-deferential.
White women - were for fucking and throwing over ..."

Rushdie has already set the example, he has *FUCKED AND THROWN AWAY* 
(one British girl, his first wife) and also his second one (actually 
an American girl - Marriane Wiggins).
She also got *FUCKED AND THROWN AWAY*.

I don't know about your case but I'm white like snow and I don't like 
people saying that my mother, sister, grandmother, i.e all my ancestors
and relatives of female sex are made for *FUCKING* and *THROWING* over.

I personaly think that there is a boarder which a writer shouldn't
pass. And that is insluting people deliberately without being able to prove
it. Here this piece of shit is insulting all my ancestors and relatives
of female sex....... Does this fall under the word freedom of speach, 
freedom of expression??? I don't think so. If you insult me then bear the
consequesnces...... Otherwise don't continue to insult me.....
 
If someone would say infront of me that my mother is made for fucking
and throwing over I would probably break his nose (:-).. i,e if he doesn't
look like Arnold Swartzneiger as I in that case would have to get some help).
If someone would walk around saying to alot of people the same thing I would  
break his arm if I caught the creap. If someone would wright a book about it, 
*DON'T ASK ME*... 

In p 392 he says something very interesting "WRITERS AND WHORES. I SEE NO 
DIFFERENCE HERE."

Well, I must agree there.... Prostitutes do everything for money and some 
writers too.

Rushdie himself is a *big* whore....

So I do agree with the deathpenalty. If Rushdie starts playing the game 
even after he gets warned in a period of 6 months and then again and again
gets warned and he continues to play, then let him play. Let him bear the
consequenses of his deliberately written insults to become reach as there
are alot of sick people who like reading that kind of shit.

And then let us stop with looking at the *Biblical* verdict on Rushdie:

(Lev 24:15-16)" And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, 
saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. And he that 
blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, 
and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the 
stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the 
name of the Lord, shall be put to death."

In Islam we take our religion seriously......... :-).... I don't think I 
need any words to prove that to you.....	

|> >|> 
|> >|> >In an Islamic state, it is the Caliph who orders jihad when certain
|> >|> >circumstances prevail.
|> >|> 
|> >|> How do you distinguish the political motives of this person ?  
|> >You can never know that to 100%.
|> >God has given us a brain to think with so it is ultimately up to each one of
|> >us to try and figure out if the Caliphs orders are in accordance with the 
|> >teachings of God. If the Caliph suddenly orders something which is not in 
|> >accordance with this then we shouldn't obey him.
|> 
|> That is the problem.  The Caliph has enough power to make sure that everyone
|> obeys him.  Want me to give you an example ?

Well, all leaders in the world has power to make the people under them obey
them. Either through force or by programming them through media talking about
beautiful words like freedom and justice. But I as a Muslim for example wouldn't 
follow him if he told me to do something which is against the teachings of God. 
I can only speak for myself. The worst thing he can do to me is to kill me. But I 
do not fear death as death is not worth fearing. Life and death are continious 
elements. Death is something natural. But I would fear the punishment of God for 
doing something wrong as I believe in a just God.

If the ruler trys to force me to follw them through hurting my family I'd first 
try to get my family out of the country and if that doesn't work then I'll try to 
take the ruler himself or anyone who is of great improtance to him with me, i.e. 
if they hurt my family continously.. If they only hurt them to keep me shut up 
and not actively fight them then I'll propably cease doing that so that they don't 
punish my family.

Well, it is easy to talk about doing these kind of things if you haven't been
in the situation yourself. But personnaly in a way I have. The Communist gov. 
which ruled Albania had it as a rule to punish the relatives in Albania if
their relatives abroud involved themselves into anti-communistgov. activities.
My family for example did have a tough time. During the period the communist
ruled the country two of my relatives toghether with 29 of my fathers friends  
got killed by the gov. And my father came from a small mountain villiage. My 
uncle down there and his two sons were on the top of the targetlist around 
three years ago and would have gotten killed by the gov, but God wanted differ-
antly and the communist gov. lost its power the same year. Every time we did 
something abroad, everytime we made any anti communist gov. statements something 
happened with our realtives down in Albania. So it is tough and it made us keep 
quiet but it didn't make us follow the gov. They knew they could only push us to 
a special direction but not more. 

The situation could best be described with the saying of the prophet which I 
always include in my .sig file:
"He who amongst you should see something abominable should modify it
with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do 
it, then he should do it with his tongue, and if he has not strength 
enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhort it) from his heart, 
and that is the least of faith."

We tried the first one but it was pointless, so we went over to using our 
tongue and our relatives got imprisoned or tortured so we ended up with 
following the last thing, i.e. "abhort it from our heart".

So I do agree it is a big problem but if the majority of the people ceased
to follow the leader then he would have to change. 

(Sahih Muslim: Hadith 4573 - The book on goverment)"... the Messenger 
of Allah (PBUH) said: 'The best of your rulers are those whom you love 
and who love you, who invoke God's blessings upon you and you invoke 
His blessings upon them. And the worst of your rulers are those
whom you hate and who hate you and whom you curse and who curse 
you.' It was asked (by those present): 'Shouldn't we overthrow them
with the help of the sword?' He said : ' No, as long as they esta-
blish prayer among you. If you find anything detestable in them, 
you should hate their administration, but do not whithdraw your-
selves from their obedience (* except when they act against the 
Laws of God *)."

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(12:40)" The Command is for none but for Allah: He has commanded 
that ye obey none but Him: that is the right path."

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(7:3)" Follow the revelation sent unto you from your Lord , and do 
not follow the (so-called) guardians other than Him."

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(5:44)" And those who do not make their decisions in accordance 
with that revealed by Allah are (in fact) the deniers of Truth."

(Hadith 4553)" ... I said:' Messenger of Allah, we were in the
 midst of ignorance and evil, and then God brought us this good 
(time through Islam). Is there any bad time after this good one?' 
He said : 'Yes.' I asked:' Will there be a good time again after 
that bad time?' He said:' Yes, but therein will be a hidden evil.'
 I asked :' What will be the evil hidden therein?' He said:' (That 
time will witness the rise of) the people who will adopt ways other
than mine and seek guidance other than mine. You will know good 
points as well as bad points.' I asked: 'Will there be a bad time 
after this good one? 'He said: 'Yes. ( A time will come) when there
will be people standing and inviting at the gates of Hell. Whoso
responds to their call they will throw them into the fire.' I said:
' Messenger of Allah, describe them for us.' He said:' All right. 
They will be a people having the same complexion as ours and speak-
ing our language.' I said:' Messenger of Allah, what do you suggest
if I happen to live in that time?' He said: 'You should stick to 
the main body of the Muslims amd their leader.' I said :' If they 
have no (such thing as the ) main body and have no leader?' He 
said: 'Separate yourself from all these factions though you may 
have to eat the roots of trees (in a jungle) until death comes to 
you and you are in this state.'"

|> 
|> >There can only be *ONE* God and it is to Him  *only* we submit ourselves 
|> >too....
|> >
|> >|>Do religion and politics mix freely in Islam ?
|> >
|> >Every society has a constituion and in a *true* Islamic society this constitution
|> >is the Laws in the Quran and the Sunnah. Whatever is decide in the frame of this
|> >is up to the people and the state. 
|> 
|> But the Quran was written many centuries ago.  Why do you want to institute
|> laws on people who want to live right here and now in the 20th century with
|> laws of days gone by.
|> 

I'm not sure if you have read the laws in the Quran.

These Laws are mostly regarding problems which propably will always occur 
in a society like theft, rape, murder e.t.c. So these kind of laws will
always be valid as the crimes will also exist. And even if we have a society 
were *noone* steals then fine, the law doesn't have to be implemented. But 
after some generations there will propably pup up individuals who may start 
stealing. So what do you do then?? Well, you implement the Law.

The Laws in Islam are *preventative*.

|> BTW, I think you should answer my last question!  What happened to the
|> old religious philosophies in the middle east ??  According to a very close
|> historian friend of mine the govts. in a lot of the muslim countries
|> are laying waste to their old cultures 'cause it doesn't fit within an
|> Islamic framework.  What a shame.  Some of my most favorite philosophies
|> come (that the ancient Greek borrowed whole scale) from the era of Osiris
|> and Isis.  I will post something about that if I have the time.

I believe the best thing to do is to adress this question to Soc.
Culture.Arabic or something like that as I lack the knowledge about 
this.

I'm born over here in Sweden by Albanian parents. In the land of my 
ancestors the mosques, churches and synagogoue were either burnt down 
to the ground, changed to diffrent kinds of storehouses or to places of 
sport.

Peace
Gani Skepi
d89-gsk@nada.kth.se

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(SAHIH MUSLIMIN)" ... I heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) saying: 
He who amongst you should see something abominable should modify it
with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do 
it, then he should do it with his tongue, and if he has not strength 
enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhort it) from his heart, 
and that is the least of faith."
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