HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: merlyn@iWarp.intel.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Our gripe with Californians (was Re: Tell me about Seattle)
Reply-To: merlyn@iWarp.intel.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Organization: Stonehenge; netaccess via Intel, Beaverton, Oregon, USA
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 17:13:51 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.230405.22351@PA.dec.com>, mayo@pa (Bob Mayo) writes:
| Because housing costs near employers are sky high.  Why are housing costs
| near employers sky high?  Because the zoning laws allow more commercial 
| development in an area than there is housing.  If each area had an excess
| of land zoned residential compared to land zoned commercial, people would
| live within biking distance of work.

Ha!  It'd never happen.  Business property is worth far more money
than residential property, so (a) the city planners aren't likely to
zone a bunch of land as residential cuz that'd be a loss to the
coffers, and (b) the developers want to make big bucks, so they'll
keep pushing to have it all be commercial.  I guess the ideal for some
people would be if we zoned the entire country as commercial from
coast to coast.  Ugh.

Just another computer commuter,
-- 
/=Randal L. Schwartz, Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 ==========\
| on contract to Intel's iWarp project, Beaverton, Oregon, USA, Sol III      |
| merlyn@iwarp.intel.com ...!any-MX-mailer-like-uunet!iwarp.intel.com!merlyn |
\=Cute Quote: "Intel: putting the 'backward' in 'backward compatible'..."====/
From: root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Tell me about Seattle
Date: 11 Apr 92 19:43:22 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

In article <57246@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes:
>> we did not say we were open minded about humans.  We were being
>> pro-environment (you know, the guys who got mad when you wanted to
>> take the water from the Columbia River and pipe it all the way to
>> <gasp> CALIFORNIA) and were flaming some pre-lawyer who wanted to make
>
>If everyone in the PNW is so pro-environment, then why is there controversy
>over logging?
>
>							Tim Smith

There is controversy because so many are concerned. In California, I suspect
that the roosts of the Spotted Owl would now be called mini-malls.


-- 
bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us                 "...we found that in space, no one can
Bob Kirkpatrick                        hear you scream. In 1992 we find that
Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA       on earth, everyone can."   --alienIII
From: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com (Richard Wojcik)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Call Banished CPU for *REAL* Freedom of Speech!
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:08:46 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services Advanced Technology Center

In article <1992Apr13.193417.18074@techbook.com> burt@techbook.com (Burt Keeble) writes:

>You're right again Chip.  And having read a few of B-cpu's text files,
>I'm reversing my position regarding BITS' discrimination.  I guess I
>don't support free speech when it champions anarchy, racism, malicious
>mischief, and several other social ills.  I wanted to be open minded,
>but in this case, that would be the same as injecting myself with
>rabies.  8-(.

Just a quibble, but maybe not such a minor one.  It is a contradiction to say
that one supports free speech when its content is politically restricted.  The
First Amendment protects racist, anarchistic, etc., language.  Banished CPU
really tests our tolerance, because it disseminates outright historical
falsehoods, and its messages seem to be designed for no other purpose than to
abuse certain ethnic groups.  There are laws that attempt, with limited
success, to define limits on speech, but they err on the side of tolerance.
Therefore, hold your nose with one hand, and hit the "k" key with the other.
Personally, I feel that the rebuttals and responses to B-CPU have more than
vindicated Jefferson's idea that free speech would act as a lighthouse beacon
for the truth.  If there is one lesson that Hitler learned, the "Big Lie"
technique really only works in a society where speech is restricted.  That is
why he and his disciples burned books.
-- 
    Rick Wojcik   (rwojcik@atc.boeing.com)   Seattle, WA
From: uncle@milton.milton.u.washington.edu (Milton Friedmen)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Seattle and jaywalking tickets
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:12:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: milton.UNCLE.92Apr14101220
	<1992Apr13.194916.20997@serval.net.wsu.edu>
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Sublime Thoughts and Actions Corp.

In article <1992Apr13.194916.20997@serval.net.wsu.edu> jeffp@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (Jeff Parke;S10000) writes:

> The result: the poor soul laying there bleeding on the pavement got
> a jaywalking ticket.  Not that I minded when he turned out to be a
> total A-hole trying to sue me months later for mental torment or some
> such thing.  Fortunately this interaction was with my insurance company
> and not me.

> So jaywalking tickets have their place, especially when the behavior
> is dangerous to self and others.

This is actually, IMO, the only legitimate use for jaywalking tickets - as
evidence for insurance claims and lawsuits.  Otherwise they are a nuisance to
society.
--
..  I want a COLOR T.V. and a VIBRATING BED!!!
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: leeners@milton.u.washington.edu (Aileen Gilladoga)
Subject: Parallel Programming in WA?  (Massive or otherwise)
Keywords: MPP, Massivley Parallel Computing
Reply-To: leeners@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: pnw
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 21:55:33 GMT

Hello,
	I was wondering if anyone in Washington was doing work (research or
otherwise) with Parallel computing, or Massively Parallel Computing.  I would
think someone like Boeing might, but I was wondering if there was anyone else
out there?
From: mnb@voodoo.boeing.com (Mike Burr)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Tell me about Seattle
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:27:26 GMT
Organization: Boeing Graphics project, Bellevue WA

In article <1992Apr8.175143.6576@eskimo.celestial.com> alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler) writes:
>
>  The reason Seattleites hate Californians and not people from other states
>though people move here from all over is that when someone from another state
>moves here they try to fit in, when californians move here they panic that its
>not like california and try to change our local culture to their way of life.
>
>  With a little more spandex and day-glo pink this place could be totally
>awesome dude.
>

True story folks... I was talking to a guy who owns a tree service
last year and he told me he was called out to an estate which had
recent California transplants as new owners.  The wanted all the firs
on the property limbed up, leaving only a stick and the upper part of 
the crown..... said they missed their palm trees!!!


-- 
Michael Burr   mnb@voodoo.boeing.com  | Boeing Computer Services, Bellevue WA
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: mzenier@polari.com
Subject: Re: Tell me about Seattle
Organization: Seattle Online Public Access Unix (206) 328-4944
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 23:49:39 GMT

In article <70852@bcsaic.UUCP> vanover@bcsaic.UUCP (Jann VanOver) writes:
>Excuse me?  How long have YOU been in Seattle?  Didn't you know that
>Jaywalking has ALWAYS been a Seattle pastime?  We're known for it around
>the world!  Have been for decades!

Bullshit.

Back in the '60s, Newsweek published a chart showing the number of
jaywalking tickets issued for various cities.  Seattle had many
(about 3 times as I remember it) more tickets per year than 
New York City.  (That would make a ratio of about 25 to 1, per capita.)

You didn't jaywalk back then unless 1) you wanted to get run over 
and/or 2) you wanted to spend Saturday morning in Traffic School
watching gory films.

As a local, I take great delight in glaring at prospective jaywalkers 
at downtown traffic lights.  (If you're good at this, you can get them
to hop back up on the curb.)

Mark Zenier  markz@ssc.wa.com  mzenier@polari.com

Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: gregory@flood.zso.dec.com (Peter Gregory)
Subject: Re: Our gripe with Californians (was Re: Tell me about Seattle)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 15:26:38 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.162212.11288@mdd.comm.mot.com> rudoff@mdd.comm.mot.com (Doug Rudoff) writes:
>
> - California is the most populous state.
> - One out of nine people in the U.S.A. lives in California.
> - California is close to Washington.
>
>Given the above, it's not suprising that most people moving to
>Washington from out of state are from California.

Last study I saw claimed the state that had the most people moving to 
Washington over the last couple of years was .....

OREGON!!!!

Surprise.  

It is interesting that 60% of California residents are from out of state.
The native Califorians bitch about the out of staters also.

Now back to your normally scheduled programs.

Peter
From: saddler@bcstec.boeing.com (Ray Saddler [BCS] Unix Warlord)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Tell me about Seattle
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:14:32 GMT
Organization: Boeing

alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler) writes:
<
<  The reason Seattleites hate Californians and not people from other states
<though people move here from all over is that when someone from another state
<moves here they try to fit in, when californians move here they panic that its
<not like california and try to change our local culture to their way of life.
<
<  With a little more spandex and day-glo pink this place could be totally
<awesome dude.
<

It's called: Becoming Californicated
-- 
Ray E. Saddler III        saddler@bcstec.boeing.com  ___ ___ ___ ___     ___
BCS System/Network Admin   ..!uunet!bcstec!saddler  /__//  //__  /  /\ //  _
P.O. Box 3999  M.S. 47-10    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=   /__//__//__ _/_ /  //__/
Seattle, WA.  98124  U.S.A     +1 206 655 6954         Computer Services
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: normb@techbook.com (Norm Browne)
Subject: Re: progeny limits (was "...toxicity of wood smoke")
Keywords: population explosion
Organization: TECHbooks of Beaverton Oregon - Public Access Unix
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 23:38:24 GMT

 kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrm 762-6417) writes:
> dcb@kopachuk.uucp (David Breneman) writes:
>> kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrm 762-6417) writes:
>>>Overpopulation is intimately tied in to capitalist pro-growth philosophies
>>Beg pardon?
>
>Overpopulation:  Maybe I should have said "Lots of people".  Capitalists may
>disagree that "Lots of people" is the same as overpopulation, after all, it's
>probably optimal as far as they are concerned.  There are 2 main kinds of
>capitalists: corporate, and state.  Other kinds of capitalists exist, such as
>anarcho-capitalists, but they aren't germane here.

Are we discussing OECD capitalism, US capitalism, or what is shoddily
labeled as capitalism as practiced by various 3rd world estates?
In either of the first two cases, I would venture that there is no
particular growth problem, indeed more concern is currently expressed
with regard to the graying of these populations.  If the focus is on the
latter case, then it bears re-examining the experience of 'advanced'
capitalist economies during the transition from agricultural to industrially
based economies.  Very significantly, the birth rate drops as a society
transistions and becomes more prosperous (and children transform from
economic necessity to economic burden).  As a capitalist, I am more
interested in selling into a prosperous (and probably slower growing)
market, than a fast-growing impoverished one.

>Pro-growth: Capitalism includes as part of it's belief system the idea that
>to remain viable, a society/economy/whatever has to keep on growing, consuming
>whatever resources are necessary for its sustenance.  It is this belief that is
>at the root of pro-growth philosophies.

I think this is a little backwards.  A capitalist is interested in an
economically growing society, but that does not pre-suppose an ever increasing
population.  It is perfectly conceivable (pardon the pun) that an economy
"grows" (at least on a per-capita basis) while the population shrinks.
There are other non-economic considerations as to why this might be
difficult or less than desirable.

>People are part of the resources processed by the dominant economic system
>on this planet, capitalism.  A high population is good for capitalism, so it
>is and has been believed.

I believe I detect a malodorous musty Marxism here, i.e. population
growth is desirable as a means of holding down wages.  Or is there some
other idea attempting to express itself here?  (What is your rationale
for this "high population" assertion?)


..NB
-- 
normb@techbook.COM (503)297-0311      |	"I wouldn't want to rob someone I know"
Access courtesy of (and otherwise     |	"It's alright, they're from Beaverton"
utterly unaffiliated with) TECHbooks. |			-- My Own Private Idaho
From: nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Tell me about Seattle
Summary: Dangers of collective "we"...
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:43:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: eskimo.1992Apr10.194352.18980
Distribution: na
Organization: <<< ESKIMO NORTH (206)-FOR-EVER >>>

In article <1992Apr9.022744.16017@polari.com>, bruceki@polari.com writes:
> In article <80qj7vd.peterh@netcom.com> peterh@netcom.com (Peter John Harrison) writes:
> [various unclear whines deleted]
> >
> >What if I was black?  Hispanic?  A woman?  Rich?  Poor?
> >
> 
>   The californication of people transcends race, creed or religion.  It
> affects the young and old.  Therefore we hate them all equally.  No
> prejudice here at all.  

     I think it's worth pointing out that "we" doesn't represent all native
Seattlites.  I was born in Seattle, lived here all my life, married a native
Californian.  We've been married 13 years, get along fine.  Some of my best
friends are Californians.

     But..  It really does rain here a lot, and worse than the rain is the
lack of sunshine, ie, a lot of time it's overcast dark and dreary, and there
ARE slugs, BIG GIANT slugs.  But they don't bite like the snakes in Ca, a
little salt will make them wither and die.

     One interesting criticism someone else made, regarding Californians
driving 20 mph below the speed limit.  The times I've visited Ca (the LA
area), the custom seemed to be driving at least 20 mph over the speed
limit.  There were minimum horsepower requirements for going on the freeways,
and how many states have outlawed traffic radar instead of radar detectors?

     One thing I do hate to see though is more lawyers move into the area.
I'm sure we're well beyond the point of market saturation where that
particular profession is concerned.  I see ads on television by lawyers
suggesting that before you agree to any insurance settlement you contact
them first.  What that does is just make sure all of our insurance rates
go up, ties up the courts for people trying to deal with real disputes, etc.
From: dcb@kopachuk.uucp (David Breneman)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: progeny limits (was "...toxicity of wood smoke")
Keywords: population explosion
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:11:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: kopachuk.1992Apr9.201129.2372
Organization: Tacoma Screw Products, Inc.

In article <1992Apr5.013006.4552@eskimo.celestial.com> kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrm 762-6417) writes:
>
>Overpopulation is intimately tied in to capitalist pro-growth philosophies

Beg pardon?

-- 
David Breneman     Sys Admin, Tacoma Screw Products, Inc. |  ____  ____  ____
dcb@tacoma.uucp              | SCREWIE the TSP CLOWN sez- |   /   /___  /___/ 
 ..!uunet!stephsf!tacoma!dcb |"Stainless steel bolts are  |  /   ____/ / 
CompuServe: 75760,1232       | ferrous but non-magnetic!" |
From: bartonh@tekeda.PEN.TEK.COM (Barton T Hickman)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Our gripe with Californians (was Re: Tell me about Seattle)
Date: 16 Apr 92 20:09:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: tekig7.5121
Reply-To: bartonh@tekeda.pen.tek.com
Followup-To: pnw.general
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

From reading all of the complaining, it seems clear to me that everyone's
main concern is TRAFFIC--ie automobile transportation.  All too often,
people from California say they moved here because the traffic is
better--never mind the beautiful mountains and parks, etc.. that make
the NW what it is. 

You people who complain about traffic are no better than the newcomers--
you both possess the same auto-centric philosophy.  If you think about
it, the major thing that really makes L.A. such a s*** hole is the unbelievable
tangle of roads/freeways/parking--I'll bet a good portion of that famous L.A.
smog is caused by that (cars) too.

Bart
From: htodd@amadeus.wr.tek.com (Hisashi Todd Fujinaka)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Tell me about Seattle
Date: 9 Apr 92 15:50:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: wrgate.9404
Reply-To: htodd@wrgate.wr.tek.com
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <80qj7vd.peterh@netcom.com> peterh@netcom.com (Peter John Harrison) writes:
>I've been reading this thread, from down here in San Francisco.  Yes,
>mygawddon'ttellmeit'sa *Californian*!   Eeeeekkkkk!

And why would you want to read pnw.general in San Fransisco, anyway?
Maybe you like abuse.  Don't you know we don't like Californians up
here?  (Who let the newsfeed get that far?  Who's the traitor?)  :)

<blah, blah, blah deleted>

>Shall we issue little I.D. cards and set up toilets: "Californians"
>"Good People"   ?????

I like you.  You have good ideas.  However, I'd let the Californians
up here and just complain quietly.  Californian pre-lawyers, however,
should be stopped at the border.  Actually, why am I complaining?
He's moving to SEATTLE, not Portland.

<other blather deleted>
>If you really feel that way, please feel free to join the Nazis or 
>other political party of your choice.  But don't bother telling me 
>you have an open mind about sex, race, and religion.  You can't even 
>get past where a guy lives.

Ah, HERE'S the point I wanted to comment on.  This was not "Hey, in
the PNW were're as liberal as the Californians, and good people."
This was, "Stay the F*CK out of Seattle if you want to pave it over
kill all the indigenous wildlife."  We did not say we were tolerant,
we did not say we were open minded about humans.  We were being
pro-environment (you know, the guys who got mad when you wanted to
take the water from the Columbia River and pipe it all the way to
<gasp> CALIFORNIA) and were flaming some pre-lawyer who wanted to make
his own little bit of spider-free Raid-filled California in Seattle
someplace.

If it were just a plain Californian, he might not have gotten flamed
so badly.  However, he mentioned the 'L' word and the 'C' word and
'anti-E' sentiments.  Them's fighting words in these parts.

Todd

P.S.  Oregon (part of the PNW) is the state with the OCA, the people
who wanted homosexuality declared illegal.  :( So you don't have to
look far to find intolerant people here.
From: root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Californian-bashing
Date: 9 Apr 92 02:25:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: dogear.770
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

In article <MS-C.702771903.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes:
>
>     It seems, based upon unscientific observation, that most of the PNW types
>who bash Californians are themselves former Californians; and that most of the
>`Californians moving up here' grew up in the PNW and left when the PNW went to
>sleep a couple of decades ago (Remember `Will the last person to leave Seattle
>PLEASE turn off the lights?') and are now returning home.
>
>     It seems NIMBY is in full progress.

At least some of us were awake enough to understand what that was all about.

The main objection to Californians was the same one which was such a hit in
Oregon 10 years ago.

Portland (and other areas) were having property values skyrocketed, clothing
prices elevated, and a number of other unneeded things because the influx of
Californians who 'discovered' the PNW. they were also oblivious of respecting 
the existing economy and values of the places they visited. Now Seattle is
experiencing the same thing --only amplified. 

I saw the 'Nazi' post --and my response is this: 

I don't object to Californians coming up here --I just want them to leave
California where it was when they do. If they just can't, then New York is
beautiful in the spring.

-- 
root@dogear.spk.wa.us                "If you travelled at the speed of light,
Bob Kirkpatrick                       and started to scream, like AAARRGGHHH!
Dog Ear'd Systems                     ...Would your head explode?"      --uhf
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Tell me about Seattle
Date: 8 Apr 92 01:26:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Apr8.012624.8269
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Apr7.212613.1273@amc.com> ricke@amc.com (Rick Eggers) writes:
>You should not go to the U of W but instead go to Corvalis. The people
>there are very considerate and they love people from California. They
>envy the things you have done with your state. And admire the
>sophistication of your state and its people.

No, no, don't you mean Tacoma? That way he stays in the state of
Washington and votes for *your* senators, not mine.

I really have no business talking, though - I came from Houston, TX
only 2.5 years ago. For what it's worth I love it here and don't want
to leave, and I recycle, and I go barefoot and I don't own a car.. Do
I pass muster?
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/    The look in his eyes when it hit - Kid, it was tasty...
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: green@fylz.wa.com (Washington Green)
Newsgroups: pnw.general,alt.activism
Subject: Washington Green newsletter
Keywords: Greens
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:38:05 GMT
Distribution: pnw
Organization: FYL

The first issue of Washington Green, a newsletter for and about the
Greens in the state is at the printer.  It is due to be mailed out on
April 20.  If you are interested in the Greens or "thinking green" and
would like to receive a free copy, send you mailing address to
   green@fylz.wa.com
or mail it to:
   Washington Green
   P.O. Box 1123
   Enumclaw, WA 98022
-- 
Washington GREEN -- the newsletter Washington State Greens
8315 Lake City Way #207, Seattle, WA 98115  -- (206)526-2919 x28
Xref: sparky pnw.general:625 rec.travel:5546
From: badcheck@hardy.u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: pnw.general,rec.travel,uw.general
Subject: anyone know about the Pacific Crest Trail?
Keywords: what can you tell me?
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:11:28 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

I'm looking for info on something called the Pacific Crest Trail.
I think it runs from WA to CA, but I'm not sure.  Has anyone hiked
it, heard of it, or know where I can get info on it?
thanks,
craig
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: mikelo@mentorg.com (Mike Lottridge)
Subject: whidby island
Organization: engr
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:02:30 GMT

My wife and I are going to be visiting Whidby Island (near Langely (sp?)), 
and I would like to get some recommendations on the following:

 - restaurants
 - places to see
 - recommended travel routes (we're traveling from Portland)
 - ??

Thanks

Mike Lottridge
mikelo@dsd.mentorg.com


Newsgroups: pnw.general