HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: andyh@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Andrew J. Huang)
Subject: Re: hydrodynamic lift
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 19:06:20 GMT

In article <1bcq7hINN6es@agate.berkeley.edu> sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield) writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.135208.7546@iscsvax.uni.edu> luebke5317@iscsvax.uni.edu (Phil Luebke) writes:
>#>In article <1992Oct9.225952.7778@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, watanabe@milton.cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe) writes:
>#>> I have been reading Ernest Maglischo's book
>#>> "Swimming Faster". It seems like an excellent book.
>#>> However, I confess that I really don't understand
>#>> the principles behind "hydronamic lift" that are
>#>> "explained" in the book. 
>#>> 
>#>> Can someone clarify this for me? 
>#>> 
>While the advice on hand movements others gave was
>correct, they have nothing to do with hydrodynamic
>lift. Hydrodynamic lift is similar to hydroplaning
>in a boat. As you swim faster, your body rides higher
>
>Steve Goldfield

Hydrodynamic lift is the creation of force in a direction
perpendicular to the motion through a fluid.  It includes both the "S"
motion and body/boat "planing" (or surfing).  The hand motions
actually are more pure hydrodynamics than the "surfing" since the
entire hand is immersed in the fluid.

However, since we're only naming things here, its just a nit.

-andy




Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan)
Subject: age group swim,  was: Inspirational
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:39:40 GMT

I'm not involved with US Swimming but a good friend of mine is
on the Board of Directors.  He and I have spent a great deal of time
discussing age group swimming. He told me that over the past few
years, US Swimming has been trying to de-emphasize the competitive
aspects of swimming for the youngsters.

Dave, (my buddy), has coached in Redwood City for more than 20 years
counts his success by the swimmers of his who compete in college
and continue beyond.  His program emphasizes fun rather than
winning, though his teams have been successful too.

Look to how your program is set up rather than for inspirational
cliches.  If you were a serious, hard working swimmer, it may be
that your youth program is geared to the way you achieved success.
This kind of program is great, but I think more valuable for older
athletes.

Are the workouts fun, and varied?

In races, who gets the biggest cheer, the ones that win or the ones
that improve the most?

Do terrible athletes have a way of being successful in your program
or do you have to be able to beat someone else to feel like a
winner?

Is a win by one of your good athletes shared by the team?

Do kids get to be kids for some portion of your training sessions or
do they have to be serious athletes the whole time?

Sometimes, too, you can do all the right things and you still have
a massive group of kids quit - (sometimes they are all following one
particular dynamic individual who has decided his/her Nintendo is
more fun).

Would you like me to check with Dave to see if US Swimming has
literature or resources to help you out?   Won't see him til next
Tuesday.

Please, I am not trying to indict you that you are not running the
right program.  You are out there doing a wonderful thing, which I
am not right now.  I have coached another sport at an international
level however, and understand the value TO a program of strong
participation by people who don't have all the tools to win, and the
value OF a program for those people.

Mike
From: sandilands@hg.uleth.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: how fast? (Meters<>yards)
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:33:17 GMT
Reply-To: sandilands@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge

A couple of points:

I recall reading that (1) Jim Montgomery, who was the first person to go under
:50 for 100m didn't start serious competitive swimming until he was in
University;  (2) Same for Matt Biondi.  Andrea Nugent who is the Canadian
record holder for the 100m Free and who grew up near here swam in a summer
swimming league (May-August only) until she was 15.  I think she made the
consolation final at Barcelona. It has more to do with who your parents are
(i.e., genetics--stature (hand size (ever see Biondi's hands?), arm length),
flexibility, tolerance for lactic acid, oxygen transport) than when you started
training.  

The fact that a lot of champion swimmers started swimming at an early age and
not many started later leads to an illusory correlation between age of starting
and achievement.  Correlation is not causation!  There is a selection factor
working in both starting and dropping out.

That said, there are a lot of improvements that can come from good coaching and
good training.  I'd guess that an AVERAGE male in his 20s could start swimming
and get under 1:10 for a 100m free.  With *a lot* of hard work of the right
kind, a 100m free in under a minute is achievable.  A recent article in SWIM
(US-Masters magazine) told of a study that showed only a 3% decline between 25
years and 50 years of age, IF THE SWIMMER KEEPS UP THE WORKOUTS.

For Anders Majland Pedersen, a meter is 1.094 yards.  So a 23 second 50 yd
swim works out to be about 25.1;  if someone goes :52 for 100 yds, he/she
could probably do 100m in about :57.
_______________                                              _
Mark Sandilands                                      --\____/ \  ___
Dept of Psychology                                  /         |  |  |
University of Lethbridge                           / __       [_>   -
Lethbridge, Alberta---------------\                    \           <|
Canada, T1K 3M4                    ---------------->    \  *        /
e-mail: Sandilands@hg.uleth.ca                           |          |
Voice: 403-329-2404                                      \_       _\\
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen)
Subject: Re: Length of Jr Olympic pool?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 03:14:58 GMT

dsew@troi.cc.rochester.edu (David Sewell) writes:

>I've recently moved into a complex that has a lap pool &
>have begun serious endurance swimming for the first time ever.
>I've been told that the pool is "Junior Olympic size" but
>the informatnt wasn't sure how long that is.  From pacing
>it off it would seem to be 20 or 25m.  Can anyone tell
>me which it would be?

I don't know the answer to your question but I have noticed over the years
that many pools are advertised in meet info sheets and hotel info books as
being "olympic size".  It turns out that all of these pools are only 25
yard pools.  (Perhaps this was olympic size more than 50 years ago)  A
true olympic pool is of course 50 meters long and a lot wider than the average
pool (I forget the width).  I think 10 lanes are also required nowadays but
I could be wrong on this point. 
I would guess your pool to be 25 yards.  If you can, find a person who is
really into swimming and ask that person.  After swimming a few laps and after
observing some times, he or she should be able to tell you the length of the
pool.
								Peder
From: gilsonm@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Why Stomach Muscles?
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:26:37 EST

In article <1207.718685850@bonnie.ics.uci.edu>, 
	jlinder@Bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU (Darrow Linder) writes:

>>Of what importance are abdominal muscles in swimming.  Every coach I have
>>worked/swam for has stressed the importance of them, but why?  For balance,
>>for flip turns, or fly?
> 
> Well, I swim (or I should saw SWAM) backstroke and abdominals were a big
> part of my training not only in high school but here at college.  Their
> response when I asked why was that it provided for stability.  Whether or
> not you realize of feel it in swimming, there is "tension" in your abs.  Well
> conditioned abs will help maintain proper form for longer races and
> improve the quality of your training.  This was the translation I received.

I found it to be very important in longer races, e.g., open water swims
over 2k.  In the longer races I found that my back was arching as I got
tired.  This made for a lower effective body position, so I had to work
even harder.  Strengthening my abs has virtually eliminated this problem.
If you're looking for a good abs regimen, I suggest _Legendary Abs_ by
Health for Life.  Currently there is a thread in misc.fitness that gives
an 800-number and snail mail address for this company.  Disclaimer:
I don't (but wish I did) get any $$$'s for endorsing this product.

Mike
From: rule@kenyon.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Flutter Kicking?
Date: 16 Oct 92 14:44:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: kenyon.1992Oct16.194433.131
Organization: Kenyon College

In article <ldm8kfINNmqc@news.bbn.com>, jwest@BBN.COM (Jayne K. West) writes:
> I've just begun to swim seriously at age 43.  I have swum all my life,
> but I never learned to swim formally and never did any strokes besides
> the freestyle.  I've joined the master's program at a local swim club.
> The first thing my coaches pointed out was that I drug my legs rather
> than kicking, so they put me to work flutter kicking.  I'm told to
> kick from the hips with my knees stiff and my toes pointed.  This
> doesn't get me anywhere with a kick board.  I've heard that this sort
> of stiff-legged kicking is the "old school" and that modern swimmers
> relax their legs and ankles and kick more like people do with fins.
> My coaches seem very up-to-date, so I wonder if the stiff-legged
> kicking is a pedagogical technique that's intended to get me through a
> certain beginner stage.  I'll ask, but meanwhile, could people tell me
> about kicking, and how to get my kick board moving?  

Kicking is the most important part of your stroke.  Trust me.  Many a race for
me has come down to where I kicked in my legs for that last 50 or 100 yards,
and won believe it or not.
Stiff legged kicking is the old school, but not completely.  Keep your knees
slightly bent and just let your feet go almost relaxed.  By almost, you need to
flex your feet a little.
It should be noted that not all people are good kickers.  It's just like
butterfly and breastroke, you either do one or the other. (usually) You might
be one that pulls better than you kick.  But that's no excuse for not kicking.
Our team emphasizes our kick DRAMATICALLY!  To put it in perspective, we did a
2000 yards fin-kick tonight, all out.  So, just do what feels comfortable to
you.  It just takes time to find out what kick is best for you.
	
	John
From: rule@kenyon.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Why Stomach Muscles?
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:58:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: kenyon.1992Oct12.215842.124
Organization: Kenyon College

In article <1992Oct9.183853.2280@bvc.edu>, earhartgregm@bvc.edu writes:
> ALRIGHT, ENOUGH OF SWIMMERS SHAMPOO AND SWIMMERS' EAR!--New Question.
> 
> Of what importance are abdominal muscles in swimming.  Every coach I have 
> worked/swam for has stressed the importance of them, but why?  For balance, 
> for flip turns, or fly?  
>   
> It seems odd that I never knew, but A teammate asked me this question and 
> I suddenly realized that I too didn't know the answer.  Based on what 
> I've seen on this net, I expect no less than a dozen explinations.
> 
> Greg Earhart
> Buena Vista College

Dude, I know the importance of stomach muscles to a 'T' especially after todays
practice....

	Anyway, stomach muscles help you in backstroke especially because of
the butterfly kick underwater.  You try going 20 x 25 half of the 25 underwater
doing a butterfly kick, and you'll see how much a hard stomach helps.

	Also the butterfly uses the stomach more than you think.  The kick that
is employed in the butterfly is not only in your legs, it actually originates
in the stomach.  This is definately helpful if your doing a 1000 kick for time
fly.....

	 But in all seriousness, you use your stomach more than you think. 
Even though you sometimes don't feel it, you do use your stomach a whole heck
of alot.
	John 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner)
Subject: Re: how fast?
Keywords: speed, never_too_late
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 18:23:12 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.032329.14535@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, watanabe@milton.cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe) floats a question:
|> Here's a question that maybe is easier for poorer
                                   ?????????????????
|> swimmers to answer:
|> 
|> How fast can an "average" person get?
                   ?????????
|> 
|> Let's assume that this average joe/jane learns how to swim
|> before he/she is 10, and decides to start train seriously at
|> the following ages:
|> 
|> 	5	years
|> 	10	years
|> 	15	years
|> 	20	years
|> 	25	years
|> 	35	years
|> 	40	years
|> 
|> What are your guesses for how fast the person could get 
|> in the following events?:
|> 
|> 	50	yd	freestyle
|> 	100	yd	  "
|> 	200	yd	  "
|> 	400	yd	  "
|> 

My data point:  I learned to swim when I was little, but never trained or
swam competitively until I was 26.  I entered a Master's program, and went
26.59 (yup, I still remember my first swim meet, in 1985) for 50y free
(hey, since I was 26.7 years old, is there anyone else out there who went
"under their age" in their first 50y free???) in the first meet.  My
progression (fastest times in 50/100/200/500, x means didn't do it):

26: 24.9/57?/x/6:26 (ouch) (~3600y for 1 hour)
27: 24.05/53.?/2:04/x
28: 23.51/52.05/1:57.4/? (first shave!) (swimming 5-7 days/week)
29: 23.30/52.8/1:58/? (too many 75s, not enough 150s)
30: 23.17/51.26/1:54.2/5:39
31: ?/51.22/1:53.05/5:17.9 (turning to distance)
32: (stopped swimming for meets; now into triathlons)
34: did 4765 for one hour swim, 11:42 for 1000y

I've been working in the pool with a 24yr old biathlete turning
triathlete; after ~2-3 months, he did a 26.9/1:02.x in his first meet.
From: sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Treatment for swimmer's ear
Date: 8 Oct 1992 23:01:47 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: hera.berkeley.edu

>In article <1992Oct5.133045.15293@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> zuniga@loligo.cc.fsu.edu (Ralph Zuniga (FREAC/CAR)) writes:
#>>
#>>	I'm starting to suffer from what seems to be a small fungus
#>>infection in my left ear, swimmer's ear.
#>>
#>>	Does anyone have any recommendations for treatment?  I'd prefered
#>>home treatments but prescription medication is fine also.

Once you have the infection you may need prescription
eardrops your doctor can tell you about. If you know
your doctor well, you may be able to arrange for a
prescription over the phone without going into his/her
office. I've used them a few times, but I can't think
of the name.

Steve Goldfield
From: earhartgregm@bvc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Why Stomach Muscles?
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:38:53 CDT
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA

ALRIGHT, ENOUGH OF SWIMMERS SHAMPOO AND SWIMMERS' EAR!--New Question.

Of what importance are abdominal muscles in swimming.  Every coach I have 
worked/swam for has stressed the importance of them, but why?  For balance, 
for flip turns, or fly?  
  
It seems odd that I never knew, but A teammate asked me this question and 
I suddenly realized that I too didn't know the answer.  Based on what 
I've seen on this net, I expect no less than a dozen explinations.

Greg Earhart
Buena Vista College
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: andyh@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Andrew J. Huang)
Subject: Re: Why Stomach Muscles?
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 14:34:17 GMT

>Of what importance are abdominal muscles in swimming.  Every coach I have
>worked/swam for has stressed the importance of them, but why?  For balance,
>for flip turns, or fly?

Preface: I'm not an expert at swimming physiology.  Abdominal muscles
are really crucial in a lot of unexpected sports.  My analysis is that
strength there gives your power producing muscles: legs, arms, pects,
etc. a rigid platform to drive off of.  With weak structure there, the
abdomen just flexes with every motion and the power from the arms is
dissipated.  A regular regimen of sit-ups really improved my hill
climbing ability on my bicycle.  I was also suprised by how much my
abdominal strength improved after swimming - evidence that they are
actively involved.

-andy


Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: tolar@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Jim Tolar)
Subject: Re: Little Thoughts (was Inspirational words)
Organization: Semiconductor Systems Design Technology, Motorola, Tempe AZ
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 23:21:24 GMT

Success comes in cans,
Failure comes in can'ts.
From: spohn@mayo.edu (Albert Frederick Spohn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: how fast? (Meters<>yards)
Date: 16 Oct 92 18:28:58 GMT
Organization: Mayo Clinic

In article <1bmrmtINNclo@pollux.usc.edu>, bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur) writes:
> 
> sandilands@hg.uleth.ca writes:
> >I recall reading that (1) Jim Montgomery, who was the first person to go under
> >:50 for 100m didn't start serious competitive swimming until he was in
> >University;  (2) Same for Matt Biondi. 
> 
> I have seen a list of top 100 sprinters in high-school (ever) and he was in
> top 25 in 25 yards, 50, and 100 yards (if I remember correctly).
> 
> He went to UC Berkeley with a full scholarship, and he played water-polo
> for 4 years.  He was and All-American in water-polo for 2 or 3 years
> which suggests to me that he has been playing water-polo for 2-3 years
> in high-school.  So, he must have started swimming when he was at least
> 14.
> 
> Sasha

Matt Biondi's water-polo experience doesn't necessarily imply that he had a 
competitive swimming background (although I'm not saying that he didn't).
Granted, since the water-polo emphasis in the USA tends to be on speed, most 
successfull US water-polo players will have had some competitive swimming 
experience - however, there are plenty of instances where individuals started 
out in water-polo and transitioned very successfully into competitive swimming.
One such case is Kurt Krumpholz (sp?) who started out as a water-polo player at
UCLA, then began swimming for Santa Clara under George Haines and set the world
record in the 400m free at the 1972 Olympic Trials in Chicago (he failed to
qualify for the team in finals).  Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if lots
of European players never had a competitive swimming background.

By the way, where'd you come by a list with 25 yard times in it?  I'd be interested
in seeing a copy.

- Al
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
From: faunt@dustbin.cisco.com (Doug Faunt N6TQS 415-688-8269)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Length of Jr Olympic pool?
Date: 16 Oct 92 13:38:33
Organization: cisco Systems, Menlo Park, CA
Distribution: na
	<Bvznoy.AGr@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dustbin.cisco.com
In-reply-to: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu's message of Mon, 12 Oct 1992 03:14:58 GMT

My observations are that if the front desk tells you it's a
"Olympic-size pool", then you can count on it's being rectangular.
From: luebke5317@iscsvax.uni.edu (Phil Luebke)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: how fast?
Date: 14 Oct 92 08:21:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: iscsvax.1992Oct14.132144.7637
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1bfr7tINN5sb@hpscdf.scd.hp.com>, schmitz@scd.hp.com (John Schmitz) writes:
> pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen) writes:
>>        15 yrs. - Limited potential; swimmers starting at this age can still
>> 				    get pretty fast, they can make high school
>> 				    varsity level and some "miracle" cases
>> 				    reach college level
> 
> Wasn't John Nabor (Naber?  - the backstroker) one of these types who
> really didn't swim until high school and then proceeded to win both
> backstrokes at four NCAA's?

I believe there are a number of Olympic-caliber swimmers that didn't start
swimming competitively until after the age of 15 (It's just not fair!..life
isn't fair.)  Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will), but Rowdy Gaines
('84) didn't start until he was a junior in high school.  There are others that
I can't seem to think of at the moment, I'm sure.
                                        -Phil
-- 
================================================================================
Phil Luebke!                         Triple crown of pain:      400 I.M.
LUEBKE5317@ISCSVAX.UNI.EDU                                      200 Fly
The University of Northern Iowa           JUST DO IT!           1650 Free
================================================================================
From: brucec@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Bruce Cheney)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Foxcatcher Farms (was: Anyone know the REAL olympic length?
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:52:51 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc.

Here's my answer: 50 meters plus 1 cm

Here's my story:
In 1967, John Dupont III, built Foxcatcher Farms in Newtown Square,PA.
John was exceedingly wealthy and determined to make the Olympics in
the modern Pentathlon. He built a 50 meter pool and the story goes that
the back wall was replaced three times because each lane had to measure
50.01 meters so that if any world records were broken there, there would
be no quibbling about the length of pool. 

I swam in this pool with Suburban Swim Club, and John used to work out
with us. Later, he organized a team of swimmers and triathletes called
Foxcatcher Farms which still has world class athletes on it.
(He also "stole" George Haines from Santa Clara Swim Club to coach
Foxcatcher, thereby destroying Santa Clara (so they claim), but, hey,
that's another story!).

I hope someone from Foxcatcher reads the net so they can comment!

Bruce Cheney
From: kporterf@scott.skidmore.edu (Kevin S. Porterfield)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: TV MEETS
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:00:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: scott.kporterf.2.719182834
Organization: Department of Math and Computer Science, Skidmore


   Okay, so we all love swimming. Which in turn would suggest that we all 
love to watch swimming as well (or some of us). Well where did NBC get all 
of the footage from the US Open and NCAA championships and all of the other 
meets that they had footage from? The first time EVER (besides the olympics) 
that I saw swimming on TV was last year when they showed (parts of) the 
trials. I'd assume that ESPN would televise these things but I've never 
heard anything. Is anything coming up that anyone knows about? Just call me 
the swimming groupie.

Kevin S. Porterfield
Skidmore
From: osterber@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Osterberg)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Anyone know the REAL olympic length?
Date: 12 Oct 92 18:02:12 GMT

>It's 50m plus a few centimetres for the widths of the timing pads. This is 
>assuming you're not using booms to vary the length of the pool, otherwise
>you'd have to take their width into a/c aswell. 

You're right. I *know* that NCAAa regulation pool is listed as 
25 yards, 1 inch. I believe that FINA regulations are either
50 meters, 1 inch  or 50 meters, 2 centimeters. But you're right, it is
for the touchpads. They allow for .5 inch touchpad width.
-rick