From: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Did Jesus Claim to be God (Finally?)
Organization: University of Tasmania (Australia)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 04:28:40 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.181441.10268@tc.fluke.COM>, emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Jul21.025516.12092@newsroom.utas.edu.au> Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
> >What we are left with then is not Jesus Christ, God the Son, 
> >who came to earth as a man. We are left with Yeshua, the faith-
> >healer and apocalyptic preacher who  was transformed into
> >a god during the century after his death.
> 
> Is is true that the earlier NT writings reveal Jesus just a man,
> a faith healer, an apocalyptic preacher?

No, actually, it's not true. The gospels also consistently claim him to
be the MESSIAH. I should have mentioned that as well. And what was the
messiah supposed to be like according to 1st century jews? Well, he 
certainly wasn't simply a man. He was the annointed one of the Most High, 
the son of David, the one who comes to usher in the kingship of Yahweh
here on Earth, to preside at the last judgement and to rule over all
nations at Yahweh's right hand when the Kingship of Yahweh came.
If you present a false dichotomy of 'X passage implies Jesus was more
than a man therefore he was God' you'll be proving nothing. Of course
the Synoptics present Jesus as more than a man, they present him as 
Yahweh's one and only MESSIAH. But that doesn't make him God.

> First, Matthew reveals the one who will save his people from sin:
> 
> Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name
> Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." (NIV)
> 
> Who can change the heart but God alone?  Who can take away sins but God
> alone?  

Try THE MESSIAH

> According to Matthew, Jesus is the one of whom it is written:
> 
> Matt 2:6 "`But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least
> among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the
> shepherd of my people Israel.'" (NIV)

Yes, a MESSIANIC prophecy.
 
> This is found in the writings of the prophet Micah:
> 
> Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the
> clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over
> Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." (NIV)

Another MESSIANIC prophecy
 
> The King James says "whose goings forth have been from of old, from
> everlasting"  or translated "from days of eternity".  So this Jesus
> spoken of by Matthew was one whose beginnings were not at birth but
> who pre-existed from of old, from ancient times, from everlasting,
> from days of eternity!

Well, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to take the KJV translation's
word for this. I'll check this phrase in the greek to see if it has
the connotations you claim for it. Nevertheless, the concept that
the messiah was to have a heavenly pre-existence was *known* to jews
in Yeshua's time, even if it wasn't widely accepted.
 
> Matthew also declares that this one named Jesus was worshiped by
> various people:

[Worship passages deleted]

> It is the Greek work proskuneo which means to prostrate oneself in homage
> giving reverence and adoration; to worship.

Really? Come on John, it was *me* who pointed this out to *you* last time
you tried this argument. And does 'proskuneo' mean to 'worship as a god'?
No it doesn't. It means to simply bow down before. I cited many references
to the Septuagint where this verb is used in reference to people bowing
to angels, kings and prophets; are they gods as well? 
 
> Of John the Baptist who came to prepare the way for Jesus, Matthew cites
> the prophet Isaiah:
> 
> Matthew 3:3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A
> voice of one calling in the desert, `Prepare the way for the Lord, make
> straight paths for him.'" (NIV)
> 
> This comes from chapter 40 verse 3 of Isaiah.  For surely John came to
> prepare the way for Jesus.  Yet when referring to Isaiah, we see that
> this Scripture is speaking of the YHWH, the divine name of God:
> 
> Isaiah 40:3 A voice of calling in the desert: prepare the way for the
> LORD (YHWH); make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
> (NIV)

Indeed, and this passage was considered a MESSIANIC prophecy in 
Yeshua's day.							       
 
> Isaiah continues to say in this passage a couple verses later:
> 
> Isaiah 40:5 And the glory of the LORD (YHWH) will be revealed, and all
> mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (NIV)
> 
> Jesus is that glory!

Really? Says who? Says you, that's who.   

>And Isaiah continues on in his description:
> 
> Isaiah 40:9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain.
> You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout,
> lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your
> God!" (NIV)
> 
> Isaiah is describing this event as God coming to the towns of Judah!

Yes, the coming of the Kingship of Yahweh, his direct rule on Earth. This
has nothing to do with Jesus.

> Perhaps that is why Matthew wrote earlier:
> 
> Matthew 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son,
> and they will call him Immanuel"-- which means, "God with us." (NIV)

No, Matthew wrote that because it was considered a MESSIANIC prophecy which
he thought was applicable to Jesus the MESSIAH (Christos-Christ)
 
> Listen as the prophet continues his description:
> 
> Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in
> his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that
> have young. (NIV)

[Shepherd analogies deleted]
If these people (esp. both Yeshua and the author of Matt) were jews then
they would know the jewish scriptures extremely well. It makes sense that
they would use the language of these scriptures in their everyday speech
and make use of analogies from the scriptures as rhetorical devices.
 
> Matthew 22:41-45 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked
> them, 42 "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of
> David," they replied.  43 He said to them, "How is it then that David,
> speaking by the Spirit, calls him `Lord'? For he says, 44 "`The Lord said
> to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your
> feet." ' 45 If then David calls him `Lord,' how can he be his son?" (NIV)
> 
> This comes from Pslam 110 where Jesus says David is calling him Lord.
> More than just a descendant of his, David saw Jesus as his Lord and
> also the everlasting priest.

Well, that's one way of interpreting this controversial passage. 
Another is to say that Jesus was arguing that the Messiah was 
*not* going to be the descendant of David. Now that opens up
some interesting possibilities
  
> Matthew also goes on to quote from the prophet Isaiah concerning Jesus:
> 
> Matthew 4:15-16 15 "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the
> sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles-- 16 the people living in
> darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow
> of death a light has dawned." (NIV)

That this refers to Jesus is entirely the opinion of you and the author of
Matthew's Gospel
 
> This comes from the 9th chapter of Isaiah (verses 1 and 2).  Isaiah
> goes on to describe why the people have seen a great light:
> 
> Isaiah 9:6-7  6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the
> government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful
> Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  7 Of the
> increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on
> David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with
> justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.  The zeal of the
> LORD Almighty will accomplish this. (NIV)

And waht do we have here? That's right; yet another MESSIANIC prophecy.
 
> Yes, Jesus is referred to as Prince of Peace, Mighty God, etc.  One who
> will reign *forever*.  In this light, could it be that Matthew is 
> declaring this Jesus as more than a faith healer?  Is it becoming more
> apparent who he is declaring with this gospel?

It's becoming apparent that you don't even bother reading my replies to
your posts! Haven't we gone through this passage before John? Haven't
I already pointed out that 'mighty God' is a mistranslation of the 
Hebrew for 'strong in battle', as any jew could tell you? And what does
that little change make the passage? Another MESSIANIC prophecy, that's what.
 
> Matthew also quotes Jesus in that He is Lord of the Sabbath (12:8),
> one greater than Solomon (12:46), greater than Jonah (12:41), and
> one even greater than the temple (12:6)!

Sounds like the one and only annointed one of Yahweh to me; that's 
right! The MESSIAH. 

> Matthew quotes Malachi 3:1
> in Matthew 11:10 referring to John the Baptist as the messenger sent
> before YHWH, the God of Israel. And after who which "the Lord you are 
> seeking will come to his temple" as Malachi writes (Malachi 3:1).

Another prophecy of the coming Kingship of Yahweh.
 
> Matthew also quotes Jesus describing the power of His words:
> 
> Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass
> away. (NIV)

Considering that heaven and earth were due to pass away very soon after
the coming of the MESSIAH, this is not at all surprising.

> Perhaps this answers the mystery of why the religious rulers had Jesus
> crucified.  What was there charge against Him?  It was that of blasphemy:
> 
> Matthew 26:63-66 63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him,
> "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,
> the Son of God." 64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to
> all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right
> hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 Then the
> high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we
> need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.  66 What
> do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered. (NIV)

Do you bother to read my posts before you reply to them with these strings
of scriptual quotes? You'd probably save yourself time and effort if you did.
It was *not* blasphemy to claim to be the messiah (how could it have been?!)
Despite what the gospels try and tell us, it is clear that Jesus was executed
by Roman means, on the order of of Roman prfect for the Roman crime of 
sedition. That the Sadducees were involved in his capture and handed him over
to Pilatus is not surprising, considering that he had just caused a minor riot
in the courts of their Temple at the most politically sensitive time of the
year. He was *not* executed for claiming to be God, otherwise he would have
been depicted as doing so in the gospels (he is depicted as claiming to be
the MESSIAH) and he would have been executed by the jews, by jewish means
(stoning). And don't try to tell me that the jews couldn't execute people,
because that's another of the gospels' little white lies. They *could* execute
people for religious crimes as a *religio licta* under Roman Law, as is 
demonstrated by the executions of Stephen and James in Acts. We've covered
this before John.
 
> Matthew describes the unique relationship between the Father and
> His Son, Jesus Christ.  This divine and exclusive relationship unlike
> any other:

Unlike the relationship between Yahweh and his chosen MESSIAH? I think not.

> This divine relationship is heralded by the words of the Lord after His
> resurrection from dead:
> 
> Matthew 28:19-20 19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, 
> baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the 
> Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. 
> And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (NIV)

This implies his divinity? How? (Take off your trinitarian spectacles
before answering).
 
> Matthew also reveals Jesus as the ruler of heaven and earth, having 
> authority over all:
> 
> Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in
> heaven and on earth has been given to me.

This is entirely consistent with jewish MESSIANIC expectations  
 
> Thus we see Matthew proclaiming the great ruler of heaven and earth;
> the One spoken of by the prophets as the LORD YHWH; the One worshiped;
> the One who takes away the sins of man; the One who has power in the
> souls of men to give them peace; the One who is of eternity and who
> is ever present.

No we don't, in every case above we have seen the proclamation of a
first century jewish MESSIAH.

> This is one case of an earlier New Testament writing that proclaims
> the diety of Jesus Christ.  Of Paul's 10 epistles that are earlier
> than Matthew's gospel account (e.g. Philippians, Colossians, Galatians,
> Ephesians, Romans,...) the same can be shown.

You have tried to do so, and I answered them all. Did you read my
answers? (Much of the above suggests that you didn't)
 
> Tim presents the case that the later writings (e.g. John) are not as
> reliable since they were written longer after Jesus.  He proposes that
> perhaps the idea of Jesus' diety was added later.  However, it is shown
> here that there is ample evidence from earlier writings.  

Sorry John, but no cigar.
 
> One must also consider the Book of Revelation written by the apostle John.  
> Although this was a latter writing, it was written in response to an IMMEDIATE
> revelation in which John, while in prison on the island of Patmos, beheld
> the risen Savior and recorded immediately the words spoken to him:

WHOAH there John! Was it really? Says who? 

> Finally, Matthew declares our accountability to this Jesus, and our
> indebtedness to Him:
> 
> Matthew 10:37-39 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is 
> not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is 
> not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow
> me is not worthy of me.  Whoever finds his life will lose it, but 
> whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

Yes, he was the MESSIAH sent to judge us all, of course we are
accountable to him according to Matthew.
Sorry John, try again.
Tim O'Neill

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