From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Prejudice vs Preference
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 02:25:50 GMT


In article <1992Sep02.002943.13178@microsoft.com>
bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:

Me, characterizing Alan Williams:

>>>I don't like nelly people because all the ones I've met are
>>>vain.

>>A lot turns on whether this is a class statement or an
>>instance.

>>I claim it is a class statement.  It says: nelly people are
>>vain.

>No; it says all the ones HE HAS MET are vain.  Do not
>corrupt the original statement due to haste or carelessness.

Speaking strictly logically (on the basis only of what I
wrote there), you are right, my further reduction is not the
same.

But (don't be too annoyed), we have his clear (and repeated
*many* times repeated with considerable vehemence) more
general statement:

"I don't like nelly people!  Period!"

So I think there's a substantial basis for my reduction and
for calling it a class statement.  It's even more so than
the one I cited, which included the point about vanity; this
more general statement removes that from our discourse.

But let's go on.

>(anderson)

(Bob, would you mind being on a first-name basis?)

>>It's no different from "I don't like Blacks because they are
>>lazy" or "I don't like Jews because they're pushy" or "I
>>don't like girls [sic] because they're silly."

I can now strengthen this: what he says is not essentially
different from "I don't like blacks, Jews, or women.
Period."

>>Just as those hypothetical remarks are, respectively,
>>racist, anti-Semitic, and sexist, the preceding remark is
>>homophobic.

>NO IT ISN'T.  

Let's argue that a little more.

>This is where you are de-railing yourself, anderson.  His
>statement is NOT homophobic.

Let's not trade claims and counterclaims.  Let's see if I
can make a convincing argument that it is.

>It may be "nelly-phobic", but homophobia != dislike of
>nellies.  Homophobic is dislike of homosexuals.  All
>homosexuals are not nelly (or rich, or old, or handsome, or
>any other attribute).

Not all homosexuals are nelly or any other attribute, right.
Homophobia is dislike and/or fear of homosexuals, right.

Homophobia may not be *just* the dislike of nelly men, but
the dislike of nelly men *is* homophobia.  I admit the
water's a little murky if we take into account nelly men who
are straight, but unless there's really a lot to be got from
that fact, I suggest we talk around it.  It's not too big a
stretch to claim he's talking about gay men and not straight
ones who are effeminate.

Effeminacy in men is very strongly identified with being
gay.  To dislike -- and he very intensely dislikes it, he's
said so several times, with emphasis he freely supplied --
effeminacy in men sure seems pretty homophobic to me.
There's some suggestion you don't entirely disagree with
that, below.

>Alan's comments fall more into the line of: "I've dated a
>lot of lawyers, and they're all materialistic--I won't date
>a lawyer anymore".  Is that "lawyer-phobic"?  Or is this
>hypothetical person not allowed to choose whom he/she dates?

I think there's a canard there.  Of course a person can
choose to date whoever they please.  In your example, it
would make a difference if "they're" meant "they were (the
ones I dated)" or "they are (not only the ones I dated, but
the rest of them too)".

The first reading would be a simple statement of (presumed)
fact.  The second would be a statement of (clear) prejudice
against lawyers.  In either case, he can date whoever he
wants; that's not an issue being contested.

>If Alan had said "I don't like gays because all the ones
>I've met are vain", then you would be correct.  He didn't
>say that, though.

I'm a little buffaloed because here you are very close to
agreeing with my earlier formulation, even before I reduced
it a bit; the only issue here would be does nelly mean gay,
and of course I claim than it certainly does *in the
context*.

But now that I have a stronger argument, I want to get you
on board if you agree with it:

He says, "I dislike nelly people.  Period." I say, with the
evidence above, that that's a statement of prejudice, not
of preference, and it's homophobic.

And if the evidence doesn't convince you this claim is
well-founded, then I want to know what you see as the
flaws in the argument.

(However, see another posting I'm about to make on a
 personal matter.)

<> The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple.
<> -- Oscar Wilde
-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
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