From: thayes@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Toeing Victory!
Date: 23 Aug 92 01:40:39 GMT
 <1992Aug20.121329.3648@desire.wright.edu> <1992Aug21.022554.29394@Princeton.EDU>
Distribution: all
Organization: Wright State University




Roger> You asserted that I make _prima facie_
> rejections of authorities I don't like.  In the stuff you qoute below, I
> cite two authorities, but I don't reject anything, whether out of hand
Roger> or otherwise.

I recall that you did this.  I believe that I am correct.  Regardless, you end
up doing it anyway below!

Roger> "toe the mark" or "toe the line" refers to the runner's adherence to the
> rules at the start of the race.
Roger> SOURCES:  AHD, Evans and Evans.

TH>I learned the phrase "toe the line" as a description of what happened in 
>Parliament.  That is, one would "toe the line" -- anybody know whether there
>is a physical line involved? -- of one's political party to identify oneself
TH>with the party's views, etc.  

Roger> Right; that's called the party line.  (So is a phone with extensions in
> several homes; I wonder which came first.  Don't have an OED around.)
> But which came first?  Did "Toe the (party) line" derive metaphorically
> from "toe the (starting) line"?  Or punningly, as the case may be? I bet
> it is, because there's no reason for MP's to put their toes on anything
Roger> in particular, is there?

I don't know whether toeing the starting line gave rise to toeing the party
line.  I don't recall the OED saying anything on the issue.  But so what?  They 
could be equally valid and completely unrelated (except by virtue of describing
the actual motor movement).  The party telephone line, again, is likely to be
completely unrelated because there is no motor movement involved --
having several people on the line at once is a party! (unless you're paying
$.95/minute for it)

TH>Sort of like supporting the (Democratic,
>>Republican) Party's plank on abortion in the election platform.  Thus the
>>derivative American idiom may be "to finger the splinters." 
TH>Alternatives welcome.
> 
Roger> Yes, please!  8-)

Yeah, come on all you out there, make up a new idiom already & we'll send it to
the OED pronto. (ObSmly)

TH>For Roger's benefit, here are my "authorities": OED mentions both 
>the racer and politico connotations, while the *Oxford dictionary of 
TH>current idiomatic English* mentions only the political toeing.

Roger> Right, because racers now put their hands behind the line, or at least
> the sprinters do.  But which came first, I wonder?  The OED might have
Roger> an early citation.  Is it running or voting?

SO WHAT?  Here's where your expert envy shines through, Roger.  These lines
could be *COMPLETELY UNRELATED*, AND RUNNING/POLITICS could BOTH give rise to
the same idiom.  As I mentioned, the second source I cited had only the
political source listed.  I think the OED has the running cite first, but also
has a distinct list of political usages.  Plus I still don't know if there was
an actual line involved in the Parliamentary etymology.  BUT a dear friend, a
historian now, once told me there was, so there.

(can't get to the library right now, so no dates from the OED, OK?)

So now are you going to tell me that the idiomatic dictionary example is
inferior?  It's an expert source, a very fine one too, and it doesn't list the
racing example, BUT why is this expert suspect?  Plus, since most uses of toe
the line occur in the sense of "follow the party platform" and not "move now to
the same starting point as everyone else," I SAY that toe the line is best --
but not exclusively -- understood in the Parliamentary interpretation.  
And I have an expert source too!

What about your expert sources (evans & evans, AHD)?  Roger, we can respect
them, we can even collaborate their sources -- vide OED -- but we can say that
they are not 100% correct (see "my" expert source) except in narrow
circumstances and we'll be right 95% of the time with our interpretation. 
Which is better than being right 5% of the time with the AHD's call on this.
At other times we may cede to the expertise of the AHD etc., but not today.  
And that's OK.

Roger> At any rate, it's nothing to do with barges.

Roger> 8-) yerself!

Now *there's* a polite motto for this group!

-----ted hayes