From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: "do[ing] stuff" (was Re: Is Magick worth the effort??)
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:27:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <16p5jmINNgj5@early-bird.think.com>, cward@Think.COM (Christopher) writes...
>In article <BsM4Dr.DEt@acsu.buffalo.edu>, oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:

In article <BsM4Dr.DEt@acsu.buffalo.edu>, oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>|>
>|> I also suspected that many experienced mages believed that under 
>|> unusual circumstances they could find a weak link or key-joint in 
>|> causality and "do stuff."  (This view I find reasonable, though I 
>|> think it happens far less often than reported.)
>|> 
>|> It is a complete surprise to me that experienced mages,  most of 
>|> the experienced mages who read alt.magick anyway, believe they can 
>|> "do stuff" routinely.

Note: "Do stuff" I now refer to as "bending chance," which is 
      what I would have called it in the first place, if I had
      had the foresight to know how this thread would take off.

>Why does this surprise you?  I wouldn't say I could "do stuff" routinely but
>I've "done stuff" before and fully believe I could "do stuff" whenever I had 
>the need.  

You're still sitting on the fence with that statement.  I can't 
tell whether you're saying you believe you can bend chance routinely, 
or you can't.

Now, why does it surprise me that people would claim the ability to 
bend chance routinely?  Because there is no way to reliably prove 
that the same outcome would not have happened anyway.  Two possibilities 
exist - A.) the mage influenced the outcome  B.) the mage did not 
influence the outcome.  To claim A entirely is to be biased.  To 
claim B entirely is to be biased.  Maybe its best to believe in A 
entirely at the time of the magick operation, but once the pointy 
hat comes off, I think B should be considered as well.  Compare 
the opposites. Compare the opposites.  Compare the opposites.  
Compare A and B.  Comparing two opposites can give many valuable 
insights that are not found when going strictly with either A or 
B.  (I did not invent this.  Check out raja yoga.  Castaneda uses 
it too.)

I've talked about the opposites several times so far, but for some 
reason people in this group keep responding as though I said "B is the 
only answer."  I think that alone is evidence of a strongly biased 
view - biased in favor of A, that might end up biting y'all in the 
butt someday.

Why does it matter?  Because people are very good at fooling 
themselves into believing what they want to believe.  God saying 
do such and such could just be some submerged mental process 
that was inadvertently submitted for resolution in batch (below 
the conscious level).  It might not really be god, the hga, the 
ally, or the higher I.

What harm does this do?  Well, if you spend years thinking you've 
reached whatever and you really didn't, its a big waste of time 
and you end up restricting your own development.  Also, I've seen 
people act on their belief systems in a way that either caused 
them problems or restricted them.  The most notable example of 
this is someone who worked for the federal government as a 
chemist, but was a Castaneda style sorcerer on the side.  He had 
(or thought he had) an ally relationship with LSD, so he decided 
to make the drug in his garage and got busted.  I could give lots 
of examples of this happening to some degree, to people from all 
different belief systems.  Remember Son of Sam?

I mentioned already in a previous post a great aunt who believed 
her 3rd set of teeth would grown in by a certain date.  Another 
aunt crocheted an afghan for Our Lady of Lourdes Church Bazaar, 
and dedicated it to the virgin mary, so that she would find a 
man.  She found one alright, but instead of being careful she 
believed he was sent by god, so she married him right away and he 
treated her rotten.  I know someone else who kneels down and prays 
for fish, before fishing.  I included a few more examples that I 
find amusing, at the end of this post.

Maybe [fill in the blank] works and maybe it doesn't.  But I've 
seen a lot of people toss out their ability for rational thinking 
in order to maintain their belief system.  Its a sad day for the 
rational side when I am defending it, since I'm not strongly that 
way, and have been criticized for recalcitrance toward the 
scientific method, logic, and even facts.

>This reminds me of working around my kids.  They are really impressed by my
>ability to do some things especially lift heavy objects (manually, not by
>magic :-), especially my oldest.  Unfortuneately, this often has the side effect
>of discouraging my oldest son since he's not as good as me nor can he lift as
>much as I can.  Sure I am older, bigger, and have had more practice than him and
>I make it look easy.  These explanations don't work.  However, when I point out
>how much stronger and more proficient he is over his younger brother and
>especially over his performance last year, it brings him out of his slump.

What's the point?  Are you comparing magick and physical reality?

>As for the routinely part, I take such claims with a large measure of salt.
>I am of the magic-is-an-art camp which gracefully allows even the masters of the
>art to produce crap occasionally...

That's fine, but do they know its crap?

>|> Healing is not the same as manipulating causality, aka bending 
>|> chance, aka doing stuff.

>Oh? How so?

Healing involves one corporal being working on another corporal 
being.  I think communication on different levels, between 
physical beings is easier and more likely than bending chance.

Of course, the potential for crap to be produced is much higher 
too.  Turn on any bible-smoking xtian show.  I suspect that fake 
healings are more common than real healings and occur among all 
the belief systems.  I know someone who goes to a catholic mass 
given by the "healing priest," who visits her parish.  She is 
convinced that when she "falls back" from the power of the 
blessing that she is being healed.  But her account of the 
healing matches exactly the description of "healing" in the 
Brainwashing article Josh recently posted.

Note, I don't think I know an extraordinary number of people who 
really get into their belief systems, and do not have the ability 
to distance themselves and take a good look.  I suspect this is a 
common human tendency.

- Peggy -

PS: My news was gone and my mail somewhat messed up earlier this
    week, in case I didn't respond to anything.

ALSO:  Here are a few more lengthy, but amusing examples of
       belief systems in action.

Disclaimer: I make no claim that this is magick either.:)

I have a friend who is very lucky and she believes 
her rewards come from prayer, which maybe is magick too.  Debby 
grew up across the road from me and I've known her for 25 years.  She 
moved to Texas about 15 years ago, married a fundamental christian 
and now has 3 kids.  She became a fundamental christian too, and she 
believes in the power of prayer.  Reward and punishment figure big 
in her view.  She believes that if she is doing god's will and 
her heart is in the right place, and she prays - her prayers will 
be answered.  I know all about this, since in her efforts to 
convert me (that's part of her trip too - to spread the word) it 
has all been explained with illustrating examples.


Magick through prayer: Example #1

Debby hated the dog her husband brought home.  They do have 10 
cats though, since part of their mission - revealed by god - is to 
provide a home for stray cats, but that's another story.  (Her 
husband finds most of the cats.)  Anyway, they kept the dog chained 
to a doghouse and it barked its head off all day and was driving 
Debby (who is a housewife and home-schooling mother) and the neighbors 
crazy.  Debby prayed to god to solve for her the problem with the 
barking dog.

A few days later the dog was quiet, so she went out to check on 
it.  The dog had climbed on top of its doghouse and then jumped 
over the nearby fence and hung itself.  God had answered her 
prayers and solved the problem with the barking dog.

When the subject turns to religion my end of the conversation 
typically becomes "uh-huh,"  "never thought of it that way 
before,"  "you never know," and "to each their own."

This time I ventured to suggest that it was unfortunate that the 
dog's house was so close to the fence.  She informed me that I 
had entirely missed the point.  The point was that it was god's 
will that it happened, and it happened almost immediately after she 
prayed to god to solve the problem with the dog.  It was no one's 
fault; it was out of their control; it was an act of god.  Her 
prayers had been answered; one should not question god's methods; 
and god knew that dog was driving her crazy.


Magick through prayer: Example #2

Debby had been after her husband, Bruce, to buy 
new-used living room furniture.  Nothing expensive since the kids 
were too rough on furniture, just something not falling apart.  He 
refused her permission, not because they didn't have the money but 
because *she* did not seem to adequately know her place, so he 
had to help her learn it.

It is a basic tenant of their faith that the man is the head of the 
family and the spiritual leader and the woman's place is to obey 
him and not question his decisions.  Bruce felt that she had been 
questioning his decisions lately and needed to work on this.  Debby  
agreed and quit bugging Bruce about furniture and prayed to god to 
learn her rightful place (and to still get some new furniture).  She 
says that in families with problems it all can be traced back to the 
wife not knowing her place as god ordained it to be, and since there's 
an unnatural arrangement things get out of whack.

A few months later Debby saw a sign that said "garage sale."  
Ordinarily she would not have bothered, but for some mysterious 
reason she turned down the street and went to the garage sale.    

  Behold!  There was a couch in good condition in her colors.  

She called Bruce and asked if she could buy it and he let her 
because she had been good and seemed to have learned her place.
Per Debby, the couch was a reward from god.  She was rewarded 
because she prayed and she was deserving.

A few weeks later she saw another sign for "garage sale" and once 
again for no apparent reason turned down the street.

     Lo!  There were 2 chairs that matcheth unto the couch.

Again her prayers were answered and her husband allowed her to 
buy the chairs.