From: cpgrb@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Graeme Bennett)
Subject: Re: Can boxing skills handle kicking ? 
Organization: James Cook University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 13:31:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.162111.27107@PA.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>
>cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) writes...
>>In stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>>>
>>>I'd be interested to hear any quotes from any of them about how imprecisely
>>>they think their opponents targeted them.   Every such match I've seen left
>>>the karate guys looking foolish and awkward.   Not more precise, at all.
>>>Even those where they had some real skill and gave the boxer a decent fight,
>>>they certainly didn't seem to walk away unscathed from the imprecision
>>>of the pugilist.
>> 
>>Were the karate guys allowed to use their feet or were they forced to
>>fight the boxers in their own domain?
>> 
And were they allowed to shatter the boxer's kneecaps and shins with
powerful leg strikes and deaden their legs or tear out their throat,
gouge out their eye :-)
>
>Hi Colin, 
>
>	That's a very good question, and the first one people usually
>	ask when they find out about this kind of contest (the second
>	being 'did they use gloves, or were they allowed to use their
>	_deadly_ heart-pull techniques ?')  ... Jes' kidding.  ;-)
>
>	The answer is that from what I've seen, (most) kicks make almost no 
>	difference at all, given very minimal experience with dealing with 
>	kicks.  I'll grant that the first few kicks a boxer sees may
>	be surprising, but it takes very little time to adapt
>	their skills and get used to the new angles, from what I've seen.

This is, in fact, incorrect.  In my experience, kicks make all the difference 
when it comes to dispatching a boxer.  

>
>	The exception is the use of leg kicks.  Leg kicks often turn the
>	tables, because western boxing has no concept of dealing with
>	low line attacks, and they are both physically and psychologically 
>	intimidating.
>
>	Most good leg kickers are more kickboxers than modern competitive
>	karateka, though, so that isn't the same comparison as I was making.

Competitive karateka are often weak.  They train to spar and not to
kill.  People who follow the way do not subject themselves to debasing
events such as tournaments where the individual is only after fame or
money. 

>
>	But as for the usual kicks to the head and body, they actually often
>	make it easier for the boxer to target his opponent.  You can evade

This is not true.  Also, kicks to the head should not be used as opening
attacks, but only when the guard is down or you are just finishing him
off after splintering his shin bone or other such attack to the lower
body, legs, etc.

>	much more easily during punching than during kicking.  The closest 
>	contests I've seen were those of hands against hands.  
>
>	Many people don;t seem to understand this, but the skills for
>	rolling and slipping and picking off shots to the head and body
>	aren't that speciallized, they work against kicks, punches, and all
>	other martial arts strikes, with very little additional training.  

But once you have taught them to block a few kicks and have made them
think they can defend against kicks, you can then feint a kick and then finish 
them with an alternative attack.

>	Lifting up a foot for even a moment and destroying your mobility is 
>	usually suicide against an expert in boxing footwork.  A good pug can 

A good martial artist will not be unbalanced when executing a kick.

>	nullify enough of your kick to keep from getting knocked out, and can 
>	go on to hurt you at close range, without you having the ability

<see below on clinching>

>	to sidestep or backstep momentarily because of the momentary 
>	unbalancing caused by the kick.   Watch a few of kickboxer Dennis 
>	Alexio's knockouts for an example of this.  He often counters kicks 
>	with punches effectively in this manner.   Combining effective
>	kicking and punching mechanics is extremely rare, including in
>	kickboxing.

I am absolutely appalled by 'Boxing Footwork' which is actually a good
candidate for an oxymoron.  They seem to just randomly place their feet
and appear to dance around as if they have glass up their arses.  They
then make some form of stance and randomly fire punches in the air,
occasionally hitting their target with an amount of power proportional
to their muscular strength. These punches are easy to block by
themselves, and when in rapid succession can be dodged or you can lean
back and smash their ribcage with a kick.  In every boxing fight I have seen,
there are long periods where either fighter has an opening that they do
not take, but instead stand there panting and drooling.  They do not
seem to understand the word 'strategy' which is the underlying principle
of a true martial art.  They either attack or block punches with their
faces.

You cannot clinch in the real world.  When a boxer clinches with a martial 
artist (a good one) they are open to a multitude of attacks, to
which they have no defence (except for, perhaps their thick skulls :)
They are worse at close range.

>
>	The generic weaknesses (IMO) in western boxing as an art are not in 
                                                             ^^^
					                    sport

>	inability to deal with 'techniques,' like ridge hands or backfists 
>	or kicks, but with low level attacks, and potentially 
>	with control tactics at close range (trapping to some extent, and 
>	particularly grappling).   

What about successful percussive strikes which break bones, strikes 
to pressure points, sweeps to their legs, neck twists, spinal attacks, 
takedowns, and countless attacks to which boxers have no training to deal 
with. 

>						thanks, 
> 						todd

Todd, you seem to be comparing sparring forms of martial-arts (probably
karate, TKD) where target areas are limited, and only certain techniques
can be used to boxing because of restrictive rules. You *cannot* compare 
boxing to a true martial art.  Boxers train always within the rules.
Marital artist train without rules and restrict themselves in a
competition.

It also depends very much on individuals. The perfect individual will be 
many times more lethal doing martial arts than doing boxing. There is no
comparison.


-- 
Graeme Bennett, Honours Student.     >>> graeme@coral.cs.jcu.edu.au <<<
James Cook University of North Queensland. 
--