HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hora@ecf.toronto.edu (HO ROBERT ANDREW)
Subject: Re: NLCS Game #5 at 9:41
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:48:44 GMT

In article <7519@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.032828.9604@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>>
>>>Once again we see that a WALK is definitely not as vaulable as a HIT.
>>
>>Once again, we see people setting up straw men.  Nobody ever said it was, 
>>unless there's a man on first and he's slow.
>
>With all due respect folks, no one may have used the exact wording but, many
>here have argued that OBP is a more important stat that batting average, or rbisetc and no matter how you slice it that argument - OBP > BA - boils down to
>walks are as important as hits.


This is an incorrect inference.  Saying that OBP is a more valuable stat than
BA does not imply that walks are more important than hits.  If someone had
said that player X with a .350 OBP was just as valuable as player Y who had
a .350 BA, or player X who had a .220 BA and .320 OBP was just as valuable
as player Y who hit .280 with a .320 OBP, then an obvious corrolary to those
statements would be that walks are just as valuable as hits.  I don't think
anyone has ever made such statements (or would be wrong if they did).  When
saying OBP is a superior stat in evaluating hitters, it simply means that
it tells a lot more about a hitter than BA.  For example, if you went 
strictly by BA, you might say something like "kirby Puckett had a better
season at the plate this year than Barry Bonds because he hit .327 while
Bonds only hit .317" (or something like that; I don't have the exact stats
in front of me).  But this statement would obviously be wrong, since Bonds
had an OBP of approximately .460 while Puckett was in the mid-.300s.

>
>Simply not true!  Walks CAN be as vauluable as hits but that depends on the 
>circumstances.  And since a cummulative number like OBP tells you nothing
>about how, when or why a walk was obtained it is an utterly meaningless stat
>by itself.
>
>What Bonds' walk(s) prove IMHO is that with out the proper person hitting behind
>you (oh that nasty protection thing again) a walk can be as equally vaulable to
>the pitcher, and some times more so, as it is to a hitter.  As had been the 
>case up until Sunday night, Bonds was collecting walks - his OBP must have been 
>decent - the Braves were glad to let him have them and it contributed in no way
>to the teams effort.
>
>>
>>But then again, it's infinitely better than an out.
>>
>
>Why is it?  With a man on third a out the walk and the out produce exactly
>the same result - NO RUN!


An out gives the next batters one fewer out to get the run in.  Plus the fact
the the expected number of runs increases with more men on base.

>
>PSG


-- 
Robert Ho
Univ. of Toronto
hora@ecf.toronto.edu
From: jcp29389@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (KING OF THE BEACH)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: YOU make the call!
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:46:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bw2H5x.14t
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Ahn@pop.cis.yale.edu (Eugene R. Ahn) writes:

>OK baseball buffs. It's time for Euge's Wacked Out "You make the Call"


>I had a dream that I was thrown out at home after trying to score from
>third on a fly ball to the OF. I actually crossed the plate well before the
>ball came to home, but apparently I had left third too early. On an instant
>replay, the OF bobbled the ball. The ball hit the palm of his glove,
>bounced down. He reached with his hand and knocked the ball back up in the
>air. Three seconds later, the ball was in his glove without having hit the
>ground. The refs ruled that I had left third right after the ball bounced
>off his glove but way before he had actually caught the ball. Thus I had
>left 3rd too early and was out. Inning was over and the Braves' winning and
>clinching run of the NLCS was nullified in the bottom of the ninth. Pirates
>went on to win the 6th and 7th game and the NL title. :-(. Barry actually
>hit a homer in the 7th to make Braves fans say "oohhhh, this IS a strange
>series."

>Were the refs right?

>--
>Mos Eisley  
>"Children's television is like dog food. They don't care what it tastes
>like as long as the kids eat it." Bob Camp, producer, now director of R&S,
>on TV networks


NO.  As soon as the outfielder touches the ball, you are allowed to leave
the base.  This happenned to me once in a softball game.  The ump made the
same call on me, we protested, and we were proved right.

-- 
+Primus-RedHotChiliPeppers-RollinsBand-TheChurch-TheHouseOfLove-U2-Pixies-Curve+
			JAY "IDig" PARDEE
					v-ball@uiuc.edu
+-KMFDM-NineInchNails-Ministry-FrontLineAssembly-MeatBeatManifesto-SkinnyPuppy-+
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jblixt@neon.cdc.com (Jon Blixt)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Ex-Cub Factor
Date: 9 Oct 92 00:29:17 GMT
Reply-To: jblixt@mips.COM (Jon Blixt)
Organization: MINE Mindless Idiot Nonothings Everywhere

According to stats posted Oakland vs. Atlanta in the series.
When was the last time this gauge was wrong?

Lover of stupid trivia,

-Jon
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 09:33:04 -0400 
From: Ken_Ziolkowski@transarc.com
Subject: Re: Announcer's call of Cabrerra's hit


---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------

>rom: kev@fred.Berkeley.EDU (Kevin Eckert)
>ubject: Announcer's call of Cabrerra's hit

Kevin Eckert writesL

        For anybody in the Atlanta or Pittsburgh areas,
could someone post how the local announcers called Cabrerra's
pennant winning hit?  The Atlanta call would be especially
interesting; i.e. did the announcer totally lose it.

-kevin

------

  I don't remember the call as I threw the remote off
the wall and its dying act was to shut the tv off.

  How in the &#^* can the Bucs blow a 2-0 lead!!!!

  Un-goddamn real.

  Death to Skippy Belinda!

  Death to Hanoi Jane Fonda!

  Go Jays!

  Note to Ted Simmons:

  GET US A (*&^%(*&%(*&%(*&^ RELIEF PITCHER THAT CAN
ACTUALLY DO THE JOB SO THAT OUR %)@#&^(@ STARTING
PITCHERS DON'T HAVE TO PITCH 9 INNINGS EVERY *&(^&(*^
TIME OUT.

Ken


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: aitken@cs.cornell.edu (William E. Aitken)
Subject: Re: Alas, Pirates
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 21:50:35 GMT

In article <1450.2add6bd0@atlas.nafb.trw.com> mspede@atlas.nafb.trw.com writes:
>In article <15OCT92.15303095@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>> 
>> Do you think if Mike LaValliere's arms were just a *little*
>> longer, they could have had Bream at the plate...?
>
>  Since you brought it up......... :-)
>
>  I was thinking about the ole "best team is the winning team" arguments.
>  Think about how the "best" team was't determined until...
>     1) Sid Breams shoe size was determined
>     2) LaValliere's arm length was measured

	During the last monthly Cecil Fielder debate, I remember
someone saying that shoe size was almost as useful a stat as RBIs.
How right they were.
-- 
William E. Aitken <aitken@cs.cornell.edu>   | Formal verification is the 
{uw-beaver,rochester,decvax}!cornell!aitken |  future of computer science ---
Home: (607) 273-7810 Away : (607) 255-9206  | Always has been, always will be. 
===============================================================================
From: zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Flannel Is A Religion Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: NLCS Game #5 at 9:41
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:00:36 GMT
Organization: Machiavelli's Copyright Lawyers, Inc. (Thornley Division)

In article <7487@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:
>>Alex Cole and Jay Bell both struck out. Andy Van Slyke crushed a line drive
>>down the RF line. The ball bounces off the wall (parallel to the foul line)
>>at a sharp angle back to CF. Justice is way out of play. Slyke gets a
>>triple. Bonds walked. Jeff King KO's.
>
>Once again we see that a WALK is definitely not as vaulable as a HIT.

Gee, I wonder if there's any chance that *this* post will be responded to by
Valentine, Dave Tate, and two Davids to be named later.

Once again we see that a KILL FILE is more valuable than a LAUGH.
Once again we see that STRAWMEN are more valuable than actual ARGUMENTS.

All right, Paul, here's the challenge: Find ONE (count them, one) instance of
anyone with an active electroencephalogram stating that a walk is either as
valuable or more valuable than a hit.  From any stathead.  That includes, but
is not limited to, David Tate, Sherri Nichols, Myself, David Thornley, David
Grabiner, Roger Lustig, Kurt Bose, David Kirsch, Harold Brooks, Valentine,
Clay D., Dennis Cleary, or the dreaded Attila The Stathead.

The closest thing you might find is: "I think walks are MORE important than
even the statheads think." - G. Huckabay.  Does this imply that walks are more
valuable than hits?  Perhaps if your thought processes are governed by citrus
fruit.

See ya, Sunkist.

-- 
*         Gary Huckabay            *            Mailing Address:          *
* "Shares more mailing lists with  * glhuckabay@elvis.is.alive.muttonchop *
*    Steven Hambric than Roger     * beaarthur@jack.benny.in.a.dress.brrr *
*          Lustig does."           * basketball@boring.no.defense.dullard *
From: sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: As Versus Js ..... Some comments
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:54:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.21064
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

The following are my comments about the 92-ALCS.

1> Js are a talented bunch, but larussa is a superior
manager to Cito and hence will out-fox him on many
occassions. Sheer talent alone cannot take u all
the way. See 1991 ALCS (Tom Kelly was superior to Cito
and outfoxed him on many occassions).

2> Js bottom hitters are pathetic and I suspect
their ability for clutch play. Pinch hitting strength
minimal. If the Js lose this ALCS, it might very well
be due to this weakness.

3> The As have inferior starters, but the bullpen is awsome.

S.H
Forever Twins
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jfc@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr)
Subject: Re: Clemens for Gonzalez?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:39:19 GMT


Everyone seems to be denying this.  Based on the news reports, I suspect
that someone asked Gorman if Clemens was available and as the news spread
somehow a single question became a nearly complete deal.

Trading Clemens would be a bad public relations move for the Red Sox.

There isn't any single player I would trade Clemens for, were I in
charge of the Red Sox.

--
    John Carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Murray Chass: The Dan Quayle of Mediots?
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 00:30:13 GMT

To quote a famous philosopher, "What do you need to become a
sportswriter, a drivers license?"

Last week, Murray Chass explained that Cal Ripken shouldn't have been the 
MVP last year because he was on a 6th place team, and that Joe Carter is the
obvious choice this year.

This week, in talking about "an all-star team of young emerging stars,"
he comes up with the following gems:

1b -- Frank Thomas   -- But he says "the presence of Thomas as the first
			baseman could be questioned..."  [By whom?]

2b -- Carlos Baerga  -- "He is not the defensive player Roberto Alomar of
			Toronto is at second -- Baerga made 19 errors this
			year, Alomar 5 -- but he OBVIOUSLY is A MUCH MORE
			PRODUCTIVE HITTER."  [Than what?]

cf -- Ray Lankford   -- [What does that make Ken Griffey, Jr., who's
			younger and better?]

[BTW, the other choices, in case you cared:
ss -- Travis Fryman, 3b -- Gary Sheffield, lf -- Juan Gonzalez
rf -- Larry Walker, c  -- Chris Hoiles, dh -- Albert Belle
sp -- Mussina, Guzman, Nagy, Navarro, Appier  			[Jim Abbott?]
rp -- Wetteland, Olin, Rojas	 		       [Gregg Olson, anyone?]
manager -- Johnny Oates]

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Orioles 1993 World Series Champions
niepornt@phoenix.    | Mike Mussina 1992 AL Cy Young Winner
   princeton.edu     | Roland Hemond: SIGN BARRY BONDS!!!!!!!!
Vote Clinton/Gore '92.   Four more weeks!!!   		"Bloody urine"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com (David Kenney)
Subject: Re: season over for SDCNs?
Reply-To: kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, Alabama
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:26:12 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.215135.28474@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>, 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
|> I guess now that the regular season is over all the stathead types
|> are going to be turning their attentions elsewhere.

NOT AT ALL!  Now that the regular season is over, the stats are no longer
changing, and the real fun of analyzing them begins!  Sorry,... gotta
go.  I've got a lot of work to do before Opening Day!

:-)
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Kenney                                       kenney@tribe.b15.ingr.com
205 730 7655

"Bob Gibson is the luckiest pitcher I ever saw.  He always pitches when the
other team doesn't score any runs." -- Tim McCarver
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: john birch society
Date: 12 Oct 1992 17:41:39 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

>   >   who is the pitcher who made a comeback from surgery a year or two (or
>   >   three) ago who is a member of the john birch society?  was that doug
>   >   drabek?
>
>I think it may have been Dave Dravecky.
>
    I know Dravecky is a born again God Squadder, but he's not a Bircher
    is he? 

    --salty


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rising@zoo.toronto.edu (Jim Rising)
Subject: Ricky's beautiful swing!
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:50:41 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

I've got visions of Ricky's speed added to Morris, Cone, and Guzman's
collective inabilities to hold runners on 1B.  Still think that Jays
will win, though.
Congratulation, Gary I Won It All Huckabay.  I did better than I
would have guessed, given that I picked Boston 2nd, Seattle 2nd,
and Oakland 5th (I think).
-- 
Name:     Jim Rising
Mail:     Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    M5S 1A1
UUCP:     uunet!attcan!utzoo!rising 
BITNET:   rising@zoo.utoronto.ca
From: kmartin@dogwood.cray.com (Kenneth B. Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Was Bream Out?
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:01:59 GMT
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article <1992Oct15.131049.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca> roger@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
>In article <1bju8mINN18d@rave.larc.nasa.gov>, bandwen@eagle.larc (bando) writes:
>> From where I was watching the game (not real close to the TV),
>> Sid Bream looked out or very very close to being out at home.
>> Is it just me or what?
>>    --bando
>> 
>	He was out, the Bucs was robbed!
>
>Roger C. Green,	Faculty of Medicine                      Phone: (709)737-6884
>Memorial University , St. John's, Newfoundland.          FAX  : (709)737-7010


The ref thought differently now didn't he!!  Take your sour grapes and stuff 'em!!
1992 ATLANTA BRAVES -- NLCS CHAMPS!!

GO BRAVES -- KILL THE JAYS

--Ken

--
===========================================================================
Ken Martin, Sales Analyst                   Phone:  (404) 631-2244
Cray Research South Government District     EMAIL:  kmartin@sedist.cray.com
=========================================================================== 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Morris: more fuel for this debate
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:27:47 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.214115.16107@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.144116.1656@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:

>>Well, Jim Abbott, with 2.77 ERA (~1.3 Lower than Jack's) went 7 - 15! So, if
>>we assume that the PyT is a reasonable predictor, he doesn't look much worse
>>for the Angels than Abbott!

>Mike, I've said it before and I'll say it again.

>Random error.  When you are working with a sample set of size ~35,
>*no* statistics are going to be very precise.  Maybe if Jim Abbott

Then how relevant are, really, in evaluating an individual's performance if
as you say "with a sample set of size ~35, *no* statistics are going to be 
very precise"? 

>gets the same ERA/run support next year, he will achieve a 8-14
>record.  Maybe he'll even get lucky and be 9-13.  And a 9-13 record is

BTW, his RS/9 was about the same as his ERA; he should have been about a
.500 pitcher. (as of end of Sept ERA 2.66, RS/9 2.53) You know what? Sutcliffe
managed a 16-15 record with a .25 difference (ERA 4.21, RS/9 4.47) Abbott 
wasn't close to .500.

>*much* better than a 7-19 record.  That's six fewer games that he has
>lost for his team!  (And we know that few players are worth even
>*close* to this much.)

Now, he doesn't HAVE a 9 - 13 record, does he? And even THAT wouldn't be 
very impressive for a pitcher who gets about as much as he gives up.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: maceache@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Tim Maceachern)
Subject: Re: TORONTO BLUE JAYS CLINCHED THE AL EAST!!!!!
Organization: NSTN Network Operations Centre, Nova Scotia, Canada
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:35:38 GMT

RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes:

>regarding, "prediction: roberto alomar will steal more bases than rickey
>henderson in the alcs.  let them worry about him."

>well, so far, roberto has stolen more bases than rickey.

>and so far, the a's are winning.

And after Thursdays game, the series is tied and I still believe that
Alomar vs Henderson is 1-0.

The Blue Jays looked so cool under the pressure on Thursday...  Ya gotta
believe this is their year.

Tim MacEachern
From: psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: PIRATES AGIAIN!!!
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:33:27 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <6970@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>> 
>> > Drabek will be gone. He'll go for more money than the pirates  
>will offer him.
>> 
>> 
>> God I hope you are right. 
>
>Why? Drabek is a good pitcher, and it'll be too bad if the 
>Pirates lose him.

Ah yes the yearly arguement about how much a player is "worth".

Yes Drabek is a "good" pitcher but the question is: is a good pitcher worth
the the 5 or 6 million that Drabek is going to ask for?   And I still believe
the answer to that question depends on the team that signs him.  For the Pirates
(a team that is going to have to start thinking rebuild soon) 6 million is just
too much for a pitcher whose best years are behind him.  Yes I think he'll still
put up some good numbers in the years to come, and for a team that thinks it's
a starting pitcher away from contention he may very well be worth what ever he
asks for.

If the Pirates have to choose between Bonds and Drabek - clearly their choice
should be Bonds.


Paul

>
Organization: Senior, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 16:49:52 -0400 
From: Amit Likhyani <al1x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: 1/3rd of an inning

I cannot describe the satisfaction in seeing Steve Avery get hammered
last night.  It is so much more fun to watch a playoff game when your
team gets an early lead.  The Pirates had been 0-3 in the post season
with me in attendance.

They have at least salvaged something out of this series even if they
can't win it.  I think they will force a seventh game, and that is all
you can really ask.  

The reception for Barry Bonds was especially supportive.  I was really
surprised.  I did not hear anyone boo him.  For his first at bat, I
thought there would be some people on him.  As the game progressed, the
crowd really got into the game.  It was easily the most upbeat crowd I
have seen in Pittsburgh for baseball.

Bob Walk came up big.  I still can't believe it.  If you had told me the
score would have been 7-1, one pitcher would have lasted 1/3 of an
inning and the other would pitch a complete game, I would have obviously
thought Avery ended the season.  As it is, the Pirates have faced him
for the last time this year.

All you can do is hope Wakefield can do it again.  I think the Pirates
for the first time in post season have to be feeling good about their
offense.  Glavine has been the easiest of the 3 for the Pirates to score
on.  

If the Pirates can come back and win the series, I would think Gary
Redus would be the MVP.  Kind of hard to believe.
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: NLCS Game #5 at 9:41
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:08:39 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <7563@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S  
Galvanek) writes:
> 
> If your arguing that taking the bat out of the hands of one of the  
top hitters 
> in the game and placing it in the hands of a significantly less  
qualified hitter
> and leaving it up to him to drive in the run, is a positive thing,  
you're 
> wasting your time.  I rather take the out and hope for a lead off  
hit from King
> with the chance to pinch hit for the pitcher.
> 
Depends upon the pitches. It seems to me that asking Bonds to
swing at pitches that are way outside the strike zone is
"taking the bat out of [his] hands."  Jeff King up with two
outs and men on first and third is better than three outs,
which will be the probable result if Bonds tries to swing at
bad pitches.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: bandwen@eagle.larc (bando)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Was Bream Out?
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:12:38 GMT
Reply-To: bandwen@eagle.larc (bando)
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mad-dog.larc.nasa.gov

From where I was watching the game (not real close to the TV),
Sid Bream looked out or very very close to being out at home.
Is it just me or what?
   --bando
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball