HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 00:25:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: na

carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:

>The admittedly sparse empirical evidence (it's extremely difficult to
>do reliable research on AA) indicates that the AA program is an
>effective treatment for a small minority of problem drinkers
>(something like 5-10 percent); the great majority would be better off
>with different recovery methods.  Unfortunately the more effective
>methods don't get a tenth of the publicity that AA gets, and AA isn't
>interested in telling anyone about them, so most people don't know
>about them.

Hmm, why didn't the USSR and other 'atheistic' countries pick up these
more effective methods?  They tried a number of things in the USSR
prior to 1988, when they let AA in.  Now AA is in there and making
great progress.  China would probably like to know about these methods
as well.  

>>It should be noted that Bill W. (co-founder of AA) warned about
>>intellectual pride (and other forms of pride) and warned against the
>>'AA is the only way' crowd.  Read the Twelve Concepts sometime.  ;-)

>Wilson also wrote "we tried to carry this message to alcoholics" (12th
>Step), "Each group has but one primary purpose -- to carry its message
>to the alcoholic who still suffers" (5th Tradition), and "Had [the
>Washingtonians] been left to themselves, and had they stuck to their
>one goal, they might have found the rest of *the answer*" (12&12, my
>emphasis).

>These statements don't say: "We try help alcoholics sober up
>regardless of whether they accept AA's message".  Instead, they talk
>about "carrying the message", implying that AA has *the* answer for

A little overstated there.  The Big Book talks about telling the
message about how we recovered - which we do.  I can't recommend any
other method from personal experience.  I could list a number of ways
I tried  that didn't work, but doubt that would do anyone much good,
but they might get a laugh out of it.  Also, AA has started up in a
number of countries without the Big Book - or even the Steps.  

Also, the Big Book was written before Bill got a few lessons in
humilty.  ;-)  That's why I recommend what he said in the Twelve
Concepts and in other later writings.

later, david
--
David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com
All music jars when the soul's out of tune.  --  Miguel de Cervantes
From: dab@ism.isc.com (David A. Butterfield)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: easier?
Date: 10 Sep 1992 20:51:56 GMT
Organization: x
NNTP-Posting-Host: change

fullerto@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy dwight fullerton) writes:
=dab@ism.isc.com (David A. Butterfield) writes:
=>Why do you [believe] that it is "easier" to learn how to use alcohol
=>in reasonable quantities than it is to learn how to abstain from
=>it completely?  It seems to me the former would be much harder.
=>The former requires learning judgement, to know when and how much
=>is appropriate for you in your different contexts.  The complete-
=>abstinance approach gives you a clear, objective measure of whether
=>you're succeeding or failing:  you either took a drink or you didn't.
=
=...most people in early recovery are in a state of deep 
=denial about a lot of things...
=	If you can honestly state that you can control your use after 
=having had a period of abuse and be happy, more power to you...

I agree with your comments about the denial, and I believe that
breaking that barrier is a necessary step whether you plan to
learn the new behavior of abstinance, or the new behavior of
exercising reasonable judgement in alcohol consumption.  Some
here have stated that the hardest part was the breaking of the
denial barrier -- perhaps once that's done either new behavior
can be learned.  Each has its advantages and disadvantages, and
each may be the more appropriate approach for different individuals.

Dave
-- 
                     Vote for *anybody* but Quayle!
From: altshule@skid.ps.uci.edu (Eric Altshuler)
Subject: (none)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:21:19 GMT

>Do you know the meaning of the term "Co-Dependant"?

I heard the Co- ORIGINALLY stood for condition.  Condition-dependent
people were (are) people whose opinions and thinking change with respect
to their outside conditions.  What they believe and what they are like
depends entirely on outside factors, which cchange from day to day.

>Did you know that people have to want to come off the freeway before they can 
>be helped?

Yes and No.  I have also heard of an intervention technique called "raising
the bottom" which happened to work with my mother.  Insted of making her 
get sober, which we could never do anyway, my brother and I insisted on telling
her what she was like, and the things she would do when she was drunk.  This was 
suggested to us by a therapist.  It worked very well, and after a while, she
quit drinking.  We tried our best to keep the anger to a minimum and the honesty
to a maximum.  She quit without meetings, steps, therapy, and is actually a 
very plesent person today.  Over two years.  Unreal.  Al-anon helped a lot also.
                                     -Eric
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: blocking out joy
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:17:46 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software

I had a very enlightening day yesterday.  It started out with me in
therapy--it was a good session.  We talked over a number of things and
then did some breath work.  During the breath work, I started to
experience a spontaneous sense of joy.  Lately I've been enjoying my
work again--I hadn't been for quite some time.  This was like that,
only it was free-floating.  I couldn't attribute it to anything
specific.  I guess I've lived with free-floating anxiety long enough to
get used to it, but not so with joy, because yesterday afternoon I got
compulsive and couldn't focus on my work.  I watched myself go through
the entire evening and late into the morning flirting with my addictive
behaviors, even though I am absolutely sure that I don't want that
sort of behavior or the people that go with it in my life any more.

I'm past the point of panicking whenever my compulsivity comes up.  I
recognize it as a symptom, and get through it as best I can without
harming myself, complicating my life unduly, or acting in ways that
cause me shame.  Although I've done a pretty good job, thanks to my HP
and my program, of weaning myself from using in the face of pain, it
looks like I'm still using to block feelings of joy.  I suppose it's
not suprizing to think that someone would use an addiction that way.
But it's disappointing to see that I've been doing that to myself.

I understand that those feelings haven't been safe for me, and in the
hyperactive days of my active addiction, those feelings actually did
portend disaster.  So I'm not surprized that I'd be somewhat balky.  I
used to have to maintain such a high degree of control and work so hard
to manipulate situations to accomplish something "worth" feeling joyful
about, that when I finally took my hands off the controls to feel the
enjoyment, all that pent-up chaos promptly erupted in my face.  What I
felt yesterday (and have been feeling somewhat for the last several
weeks) isn't manufactured.  It's just there.  In fact, it's there in
spite of the chaos of my messy divorce.

The thought now occurs to me that the same skills I learned to stay
sober in the face of pain may help me to stay sober in the face of
joy.  God that sounds bizarre, as if joy were an intrinsic problem or
something.  As I write this, I feel some contact with that joy.  One
thing that occurs to me is that, just like pain, I can't really control
those feelings.  But I can keep tabs on myself when they're up.

I don't have to get stupid just because I happen to feel good.  I can
stay alert and explore this new territory carefully, a little bit at a
time, a day at a time.  And if I slip and get a little muddy along the
way, well, progress and not perfection.  The important thing is that I
get back up and stay up, and continue to be responsible to myself and
my HP, even with my mistakes and imperfections.

-r
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Welcome
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 11:42:02 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: na

Welcome to the bay area!  There's a lot going on in the area with regards
to recovery.  
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth)
Subject: RE: BooHoo BooHoo Waaagh!!
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, San Diego Center
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:26:30 GMT


Perhaps my post about "Poor Me, Poor Me, Pour Me another Drink!"
was a knee-jerk reaction to the shit dumping that was prevelant in
last week's messages. What I really meant to say was the loving
caring response that Alex gave in my defense but I'm just not that
delicate especially with new people. Sometimes you just have to get
their attention quickly --- I think about babys playing on the
freeway, you don't reason with them. You just run out into the
freeway, grab them, carry them to safety and then talk to them.

In my experience with AA, those who get up meeting after meeting
and complain about things are either not alcoholic (usually there 
because their therapist told them to go to AA for a supplemental 
support group) or are playing on the freeway. If I can grab them
up off the road and take them to a place of safety, I will.
But some people refuse our help and our program, to them I
say have fun drinking and I wish you well finding a solution to your 
problems.

As to someone who suggested that we should never judge anyone
else's program and only give them loving suggestions and patience.
I have found, in my working with sponsorees, that that approach is
not always appropriate for every-one. If the new person is shy and
sick and afraid, then loving and patience can help them to gain
enough confidence to get sober. If however they are a smart ass
know-it-all I put the hammer down and beat their ego into submission
by tasks of service and zapping zingers at their bullshit.
Different approaches for different people, all with the same goal in
mind: SOBRIETY. But for both of them, I will take their inventory,
if they are incapable of taking it themselves --- I view this as a
kindness and not as a punishment. When I do this however, I also 
examine that same problem in my own life, just to be fair.

As Alex so kindly said "AA is about solutions not problems.",
I've got a lifetime of experience with problems but only a 
limited experience with the solutions. I'd like to hear 
solutions at meetings not just problems.


James aka jerpseth@sd.cadence.com



Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
From: pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 22:11:16 GMT

In <s7tn2b+.dhawk@netcom.com> dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins) writes:
>carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
>>The admittedly sparse empirical evidence (it's extremely difficult to
>>do reliable research on AA) indicates that the AA program is an
>>effective treatment for a small minority of problem drinkers
>>(something like 5-10 percent); the great majority would be better off
>>with different recovery methods.  Unfortunately the more effective
>>methods don't get a tenth of the publicity that AA gets, and AA isn't
>>interested in telling anyone about them, so most people don't know
>>about them.
>Hmm, why didn't the USSR and other 'atheistic' countries pick up these
>more effective methods?  They tried a number of things in the USSR
>prior to 1988, when they let AA in.  Now AA is in there and making
>great progress.  China would probably like to know about these methods
>as well.  

Because in general, man is still a superstitious animal.  Belief, no
matter how dogmatic or irrational, is a powerful force--in many ways
one of the most powerful.  (And the power tends to go up with dogmatism).

This does not mean that this powerful force cannot be misleading or
harmful.

Conversely, it does not mean that it has to be misleading or harmful.


The point is that unless you think the superstitious aspects of man's
beliefs are inherent in the form, there may well be BETTER WAYS, but
dogmatism is so bent on perpetuation of itself, and so entrenched
in our societies, that it is very difficult to find the better ways.

One is tempted to view dogmatism as a successful virus that preys on
human conceptual systems.

>A little overstated there.  The Big Book talks about telling the
>message about how we recovered - which we do.  I can't recommend any
>other method from personal experience.

While your personal experience certainly has a fair amount of congruence
with other personal experiences, I don't think one can blindly say it
fits most or all personal experiences.  My own experiences with drinking
run directly counter to those I'm told someone with a drinking problem
"should" have.
-- 
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
    Uncle Sam comes off as the perverted relative who'll offer you a bit of
          candy, but if you won't bend over for him, you get a beating
Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3166 talk.politics.drugs:6261
From: dab@ism.isc.com (David A. Butterfield)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Abstinence (was: easier?)
Date: 12 Sep 1992 00:02:56 GMT
Organization: x
NNTP-Posting-Host: change

er@oscar.bellcore.com (80734-romanov,elizabeth) writes:
> Why is it so critical to somebody's recovery that s/he hold on to
> the hope of drinking/drugging again some day?

Why does it matter?  It's clearly possible for many people to learn
the skills of reasonable, responsible, use of alcohol (though I grant
that may be a more difficult thing to learn than the behavior of
abstinance.)  If there are people for whom such hope is "critical",
why not help them, too?

That's not AA's particular style.  AA is oriented to the abstinance
approach.  Many of their same steps could be used in other approaches.
The "hard" parts are the same:  confronting the issues, admitting the
problem, learning new behaviors.

Dave
-- 
          Magic is the art of assuming a role strongly enough
          that the Universe falls into the complementary role.
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: No dogma (was AA beliefs)
Date: 14 Sep 1992 17:14:04 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

I've been reading alt.recovery on the subject of AA. beliefs. Several
posters have mentioned AA dogma. There is no AA dogma. It doesn't
exist. AA is an individual program. If some individual thinks dogma is
appropriate for himself, he gets it from some other source like a
church.

  Dogma  - noun: A doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or
           morals formally stated and authoritively proclaimed by a 
           church.

AA is not a church. There is no established doctrine concerning faith
or morals. Nothing is stated authoritively. No dogma. Some betters
words would be program, objectives, goals, or actions. No dogma.

Sorry for the bickering Phil. I don't tolerate lies. I posted one
article that was mean-spirited, though factually correct. Now I am
holding on to my postings for an hour and editing them again before
sending them out. Hopefully that will help.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
From: altshule@skid.ps.uci.edu (Eric Altshuler)
Subject: (none)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:21:07 GMT

>  Don't know who Jack Trimpey is?

No. Who is he?
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
From: lise@kepler.uucp (80734-romanov)
Subject: Re: Abstinence (was: easier?)
Reply-To: er@oscar.bellcore.com (80734-romanov,elizabeth)
Organization: Bellcore, Piscataway, NJ
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 13:46:36 GMT


I am always made uneasy by assertions regarding controlled drinking (or for
that matter recreational drug use).  Why is it so critical to somebody's
recovery that s/he hold on to the hope of drinking/drugging again some day?
From the outside, it sounds like the person is only willing to contemplate
getting well or changing destructive patterns on condition that they can
drink/drug again someday--and that focus as a starting point would seem to
me to indicate a *serious* lack of perspective regarding alcohol.

BTW I am not AA--I'm an adult child of two of them, though, and (like virtually all adult children) was seriously romantically involved with an alcoholic
for a good while.  The behaviour of temporary, white knuckle abstinence 
with the ideation that the drinker can drink again as soon as s/he has proved
a point, is uncomfortably familiar.

Just my $.02.

Lise

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: sher@umbc4.umbc.edu (Sherri Crain)
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!! 
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 05:07:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.223812.13033@Cadence.COM> jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth) writes:
>In reading this group for the last week or so, there are so many 
>people who seem to think that this is the toilet for dumping shit
>about landlords, jobs, etc. etc. etc. into that all I can say is:
>
>Poor Me, Poor Me, Pour Me another Drink!
>

Years ago,there was another line that the "old-timers" used on young
people in the program quite a bit...

"I've spilled more booze than you drank."  

I know quite a few people who went back out with lines like that.
Sarcasm can be deadly,be careful!

"Anything which interferes with your serenity is a direct threat to
your sobriety and thus is worth sharing."  A direct quote from my sponsor,
who has nearly 20 years of sobriety.  I tend to agree with her.

-- 

     Lack of planning on your part                 -sher   
doesn't justify an emergency on my part     sher@umbc3.umbc.edu
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 10 Sep 1992 19:14:35 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

dab@ism.isc.com (David A. Butterfield) writes:
> This reminds me of the sort of things some (poor) psychotherepists
> say when one of their patients isn't progressing very rapidly:
> "Oh, he's a difficult patient."  The question is, who's the patient
> and who's the supposed expert?  If a program or a technique doesn't
> work on a particular class of people, then it's time to try
> something *different* when trying to help those people.

We are not professionals. We are indeed "poor" psychotherapists since
we are not psychotherapists at all. We are not experts. All we know is
what happened to us. It has been our experience that when we share how
we got sober others got the message and they got sober too. It works.

If someone doesn't get it, I can't say why. I can only guess why *I*
wouldn't get it. It seems reasonable to assume that the person wasn't
ready for our program. AA is not easy, just simple, and not being ready
is the most common reason for people not clicking with our program.

> "It is a poor workman who blames his tools."

It is usually the guy who doesn't have to do the work who says this.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
From: moy@acf3.NYU.EDU (Gloria J. Moy,N.DORM C3,(212)9983456,)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: women in recovery - has anyone heard of it?
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:49:00 GMT
Organization: New York University


 has anyone here heard of a group called women in recovery?
I saw it mentioned in the sunday church bulletin and wondered if it was
a group just out of new york or if this group exsists in other places.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.Netcom.COM (Enigma)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 05:22:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Service
	<1992Aug11.222057.20172@gumby.dsd.trw.com>
	<18ekf5INNmf9@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <1992Sep8.230841.18569@csc.ti.com>

In article <1992Sep8.230841.18569@csc.ti.com> barbaraj@csc.ti.com (Heart Dancer) writes:

> Somewhere in AA dogma (I'm sure many of you know exactly where!) is the 
> thought about the easier, softer way availed us nothing.  What I hear
> Richard saying is that for some people, the easier, softer way worked.
> I think I am one of those people.  There was a time in the late
> seventies/early eighties when I was very depressed and sought relief
> in alcohol.  I was also abusing prescription drugs.  

[text deleted]
>    Because of work I was doing in therapy, and because of the
> spiritual growth I was experiencing, I learned to deal with the
> depressive episodes in much more effective manners.

Maybe you didn't do the work inside of a *A program, but it sounds
to me like you did the work.  Your spiritual growth sounds genuine to
me (I've seen a few of your postings in other groups), and a "spiritual
awakening" is the whole object of the *A programs (see step 12).  I
can't see that it makes too much difference whether you acheived that
spiritual growth inside or outside of *A.  Maybe it was an "easier, 
softer" way, maybe it was harder - there's no way to compare.  
But there's a big difference between doing the work outside of a *A
program, and not doing the work at all.

Holly
-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)     
Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3127 talk.politics.drugs:6231
From: fullerto@tuna.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy dwight fullerton)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 11 Sep 92 08:32:01 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

In article <2AAFEB57.19331@news.service.uci.edu> altshule@skid.ps.uci.edu (Eric Altshuler) writes:
>> Research over the last 30 years has repeatedly
>> confirmed that persons reliably diagnosed as alcoholics can
>> sometimes resume normal drinking
>
>
>Seriously???  I won't dispute it, but I also won't believe it until
>I see it in writing.  Please site your research.  Journal names,
>universities, research centers, anything.  I would seriously like
>to follow up on this, Richard.  Be as specific as posible, so as to
>save me footwork.  Thanks.
>                             -Eric

***P.S. deleted***


	When you do this, post it please, not E - mail. I am interested
and I'll bet a lot of others are too.

		Tim
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Abstinence (was: easier?)
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:14:45 GMT

pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) writes:

>In <1992Sep11.134636.7799@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> lise@kepler.uucp (80734-romanov) writes:
>>I am always made uneasy by assertions regarding controlled drinking (or for
>>that matter recreational drug use).  Why is it so critical to somebody's
>>recovery that s/he hold on to the hope of drinking/drugging again some day?

>I think the point is that the often-stated "you must NEVER drink again,
>or you will RETURN TO THE DARK SIDE" is overstated by quite a bit.
>Perhaps returning to drink/drugs is not a necessary goal, but to
>deny that it is possible to do so in some cases is to deny reality,

I can't stand it!!

This one made me laugh till it hurt - Get it, huh? "To deny that 
[returning to drink/drugs] is possible is to deny reality" -
but to drink/drug is to deny reality, silly!

Guys, I'm out of here. As long as you give these folks their druthers
(Argue with me! I _desperately_ need to prove this point to somebody!)
they'll keep it up. I'll be on the twelve step list, with the folks who
are looking for a solution...8-)

love and service,
jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
i need to ask myself.....
***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********
Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3150 talk.politics.drugs:6248