HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Sporter Models and Prices
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:09:53 GMT


James Foster writes:
#Another topic:  How can I tell if a batch of surplus ammunition uses
#corrosive primers?  This is Chinese 7.62x39 ball.  It's labled "Intrac"
#and packed two 720 round tins per case.  I'm assuming it's corrosive, but
#out of curiosity, is there any way to test this?


There is a way to test this: fire a couple of hundred rounds and then
leave the gun in a damp place for a week. Of course, this does not
qualify as "nondestructive testing" :)

As a data point, I had a 720 round can like Jim describes. The cartridges
inside had copper-washed steel cases, were on 10-round stripper clips,
and wrapped with brown paper. This is the military package and the cartridges
are corrosive. I also had a similar 550 round can previously.

I do suspect that the cartridges in the commercial package (20-round box
with styrofoam and usual legal crap printed on it), with lacquered steel
cases, is non corrosive. But the Chinese make things interesting by 
having such a wide variety of packaging :)


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:42:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: ttinews.1992Aug19.155257.14560
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.

In article <1992Aug17.164953.25505@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> aj336@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pat Weber) writes:

#Apparently, one the curious, yet more stupid
#soldiers decided to test the strength of his steel helmet.

#He survived the incident.

Oh well, even evolution misfires occasionally.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@ttidca.tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@ttidca.tti.com to you!)
{philabs,psivax,pyramid,quad1,rdlvax,retix,rutgers}!ttidca!reid
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
From: efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: AR-15 in 7.62X39
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:33:52 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


In article <920814144005.20408a2c@FRED.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL>,
SYSTEMM@FRED.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL (System Manager Wuest) writes:
#
#  canders%lacerta.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Cliff Anderson CIRT) writes:
#
##Has anyone out there heard about the new Colt AR15 rifles in 7.62 by
#39 cal.
##This sounds like a good idea from the folks at Colt.  You know!!
##Cutting in on the SKS market.  Well I'm sure it cost alot more.
#
#  What's a matter with a Ruger Mini-30?  (P.S.  I bought mine years
#ago


Well, other than BILL RUGER, nothing. I still wouldn't buy another Ruger 
(new OR USED) ever. While I am rabidly "buy-American", I'll gladly buy 
a foreign gun before a Ruger from now on.
From: rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: X's on bullets (was Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20)
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:41:00 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <9208102307.AA08617@gtephx.com> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
# { discussion of dum-dums deleted }
#And there is a combination of Dum-Dum and hp ammo: Hornady manufactures 
#HP/XTP (eXtra Terminal Performance) bullets which are jacketed hollowpoints
#with small slits cut in the jacketing around the hollow point.  This is
#supposed to offer improved expansion: it *does* make a mean looking bullet.
#
#[As far as I can tell, the XTP bullets are sold as projectiles only -- 
#meaning you have to load them yourself.]
#

MidSouth sells loaded XTP cartridges.  The page layout seems to indicate that
they are loaded by Hornady.  I'll try to remember to bring in the catalog
tomorrow and get the details right. (as well as prices.  ;^)

Also, in the 158gr .357 bullet, they offer HP-XTP and flat-nose XTP.  The flat-
nose has a very small hole in front and the trademark XTP notches.  The HP-XTP
sports a large hollowpoint hole in addition to the notches.  Not quite as 
intimidating (imho) as the .45/185gr Nosler HPs.  According the the Hornady
data sheet, the HP-XTP is designed to be effective at lower velocities than
the flat-nose.

--Rob Cuthbertson, rob@spot.Colorado.EDU
(I've got to start reading this group from home where I've got all the data!)
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Differance between .40 and 10mm
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:09:32 GMT
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.

In article <1992Aug20.003747.6896@ecst.csuchico.edu> dpike@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU (DAN PIKE) writes:
#I was talking to a friend the other day here at work who claims he owns a lot
#of guns.  During our conversation he said that .40cal and 10MM are the same
#thing.  I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the subject, but I think he's
#wrong.  I know there has to be a differance.  Don't they fire differant rounds? 
They are different rounds.  They have the same diamter, but the 10MM has
a longer case.

#He says you can fire the same round through both.

You *might* persuade a 10MM gun to fire .40 cartiridges (didn't someone
claim on this forum that the Glock 10MMs would do that?).  But it's
rather iffy.  Because of the way semi-auto pistols work, it's not
guaranteed to work the way .38s are guaranteed to work in a .357
revolver.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@ttidca.tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@ttidca.tti.com to you!)
{philabs,psivax,pyramid,quad1,rdlvax,retix,rutgers}!ttidca!reid
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Determining muzzle energy
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:02:13 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <1992Aug21.012744.11391@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu
(James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

#sorrow@maple.circa.ufl.edu writes:

##This is probably a FAQ, however I need to know what exactly is used to
##determine "muzzle energy" as per ballistics tables use...something like
##pound-feet or foot-pounds ( always get the two mixed up :-) 

#What I do is     ke = v**2 * m / 451,000.
#Velocity (in fps) squared, times Mass (grains) divided by 451,000 = Kinetic
#Energy in foot lbs.

I do almost the same:

      KE = (V^2)(m)(2.22*10^-6)

If find it easier to remember 2.22/1,000,000 which is good to 4, almost 5 
places than to remember 2*7000*32.174 = 450,436.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Chronographs, pressure tape
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:14:11 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


I've been thinking for some time now my next present to myself should be
a chronograph.  Anybody have strong opinions on any particular one?

I also read somewhere that you can get a pretty good imitation of a
pressure transducer by putting some special resistive-mesh tape on your
barrel and monitoring the stretch.  I think I've also read that one of
the Oehler (sp?) model chronographs has inputs for such tape.

Anyone have experience with this?  Would I need to get something like
a T/C Contender barrel to use this?  How accurate is it?  What's
involved in getting a true time/pressure curve?  Is it as much fun
as shooting?

-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Browning A-bolt
Date: 19 Aug 92 02:16:57 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <9208172324.AA14984@dvorak.amd.com>, mbehrens@aunext3.amd.com (mikael behrens x54752) writes:
# I'm going to be buying a hunting rifle in the near future and after doing some  
# preliminary research, I like the stainless steel Browning A-bolt alot.  The  
# reduced bolt rotation, glass-bedded free-floating barrel, and detatchable mag  
# are some of the features that attract me to it.  As far as calibre, I'm trying  
# to decide between .308, 30'06, and .270.
# 
# I'd appreciate any general information and opinions of this gun.  How's the  
# accuracy?  Does the A-bolt have any horrible flaws that aren't immediately  
# obvious (BESIDES being made in Japan)?
# 
# Mikael

I sold one to a customer a while back.  It was the first hunting
rifle I've sold that I could actually appreciate as a work of art.
Gorgeous!  The action was smooth, and I began to appreciate the
meaning of the phrase, "like a hot knife cutting through butter."

The customer wanted it in .300 Win. Mag., with a 12x scope.  I'm
still trying to figure out what he wanted it for, but it was
beautiful, and I've heard no complaints from him.

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
I can make myself popular on USENET again -- all I have to say is that I'm not 
disturbed by the support for North American Man-Boy Love Association in the 
homosexual community.  Being popular at a child's expense isn't worth it.
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: aluminum bullets
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:38 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In the latest issue of the Atlanta Discount Ammo flier, there's some weird
.38 special ammo listed: a 33 grain HP _aluminum_ bullet. The manufacturer
(American Ballistics) claims a muzzle velocity 2,750 fps. This stuff is +P.

Weird. Can anybody figure out what the terminal ballistics of such a round
might be like? Would you get any penetration? 
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Check Weights - A Gadget Review
Date: 18 Aug 92 03:01:02 GMT
Organization: Computing Center, North Carolina State University


  I have a Hornady balance and it has always seemed to work perfectly.  
Now and then I weight a match grade bullet on it, and always come up
with a very close reading to the claimed weight - but I've always
wondered about it performance down in the 2 - 15 grain range where
handgun reloading is done.

  So finally I bought a "Scale Weight Check Set" (a Lyman #7752313)
which has a total of 10 weights which can be used to put together a
weight sum of anywhere between 0.5 and 210.5 grains.  (The weights are
100, 50, 20, 20, 10, 5, 2, 2, 1, .5 and a pair of forceps is included
so that you don't have to touch the weights with your fingers.)  This
set comes in a snap-close plastic box 2" x 2" x 4" which is about
ten times a large as needed to contain the weight set.

  What can I say - except that the weight set and my balance agree
quite well, with the largest discrepancies I could see being
under 1/2 of a tenth of a grain.  I'm happy I got it so I could know,
but I really wasn't too worried before.  One of the nice things about
a balance is that it tends to work totally correctly if it works at
one balance setting (really at two - at the "zero" and at the standard
weight) and so weighing one light bullet does a quite good job of
reassurance.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Colt Sportster/AR-15 Magazine Compatibility?
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:42:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: icd.1992Aug19.152436.8887
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.

I understand that the new "sporterized" version of the AR-15 that
they only supply a 5 round magazine.  Will extended capacity (i.e.,
20, 30, 40 round) magazines designed for the AR-15/M16 work in the
new version of the gun?

(I know that this probably sounds like a dumb question, and I'm sure
the answer is probably yes, which leaves me wondering, why did they
bother?)
From: ses@hpfcls.fc.hp.com (Steve Speer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Wanted to buy: 870/1100 deer barrels
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:10:03 GMT

Myself and a friend are going to go deer hunting in southern Wisconsin this
fall and just found out that the area will be shotgun only.  We are both
in the market for used deer barrels (rifled or smoothbore).  I have an
870 Magnum that can handle 2 3/4" or 3" shells as well as an 1100 in 2 3/4".
He has an 870 in 2 3/4" (matt finish, but not that picky).  All guns are 12 ga.
and right hand models.  Will consider a suitable barrel for any of them and
maybe even a scope.  What we want is a good deal from someone who may not
use a shotgun for deer anymore.  This is a one time hunt for me and he lives
16 hours from Wisconsin as well, so neither of us wants to put a lot of money
into this.  I found a guy on the net last week that had an 870 barrel for $40,
but it was sold when I found out about it.  If anyone is interested or has
any suggestions, I can be reached at (303) 229-6261 (w), or (303) 225-0549 (h).

Thanks,

	-Steve Speer
	 ses@fc.hp.com
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re:  X's on Bullet
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:50:49 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <1992Aug11.232926.15819@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#It was supposed to make the bullet "explode" on impact -- actually a
#primitive version of the Glaser or MagSafe. (The mercury is supposed to
#splash forward out of the slug and wreak general havoc on the target).
#I've no idea if it would actually work.  Fiction is a poor source of
#factual information on such things (is that a tautology?).  I can see how
#the wound would be a nightmare to treat.  Getting all the mercury out
#would be nearly impossible.
#

It was in the Exterminator as well.  I beleive that the idea is that as
the nose of the bullet presses against the mercury, it is squeezed between
the nose and the base and looks for the least resistance out.  This being
the sides.  THe bullet would then explode perpindicular to the line of
travel and the base _might_ expande greater as well.  Don't breath the fumes
as you solder up the tip. 

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: factory vs handloads for defense (was Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:30 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <tmi.712911676@well.sf.ca.us>, tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler) writes:
[...] 
# Of course reliability is an all-important issue in defense ammunition, but
# also, it is unwise to carry hand-loaded, i.e., non-factory, ammunition for
# defense regardless of how reliable it is or anything else.

Why?

-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Another snapcap question.
Date: 21 Aug 92 12:59:53 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


#It involves the semiauto's equivalent of the revolver training method:
#randomly load live rounds and snapcaps into the cylinder for
#flinch-training.

#Have a friend randomly load live rounds and snap caps into the magazine,
#and you insert it, drop the slide, etc.  You don't know what's in the
#chamber.  Squeeze the trigger.
#
#Is that a problem?  Are there any other problems with this idea?

There is at least one company that makes (relatively) inexpensive
plastic rounds just for this purpose.  You might get in the habit of
using this exercise to practice your 'tap rack bang' drills.  The
plastic rounds will last for several dozen uses, as a rule.  They are
also day glow orange so that they will be easy to spot on the ground and
will not be easily confused with live ammunition.  I don't have the
address here, but if you email me I'll get it for you.  If I get more
than 4 or 5 requests, I'll post.

One of these dummy pretty well simulates the simple failure to fire for
an auto and the 'tap rack bang' drill clears this.  Two in a row in a
magazine will cause the first 'tap rack bang' to fail.  At this point
you can do a 'lock, strip work tap rack bang' drill.  These two drills
will take care of 99% of the malfunctions/misfeeds/jams that you will
encounter in an auto.

'tap rack bang' = when you get a failure to fire, sharply smack the
magazine with your weak hand to make sure it is seated, (this is the
most common reason an auto will not fire a second shot when the first
fires) rack the slide and shoot.

'lock strip work tap rack bang' = if the gun fails to fire after the
first 'tap rack bang' lock the action open, strip the magazine out, work
the action several times to clear it, slam a new magazine home (you DO
carry one don't you?) rack the slide and shoot.

While it may be possible to take care of a malfunction without going
through all of this, this has the advantage of there just being two
drills to take care of most all problems you are likely to run into and
you are more likely to remember this training under stress.  The
decision tree is very small.  Realistic goals for time between shots are
3 seconds for the 'tap rack bang' and 10 seconds for the 'lock strip
work tap rack bang.'  Bear in mind, that 3 of these seconds were
probably consumed by the 'tap rack bang' you tried before you did the
whole procedure.

Rick.
From: sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: clean reloading
Date: 21 Aug 92 12:59:21 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug21.005405.8265@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#I think I started the staff at my local range thinking, at least, when I
#pointed out I could buy 9mm CCI Blazer lead-free ammunition cheaper than
#they could sell me reloads ($7/box, by the case).  I assume the people
#selling it to me are making a profit.  Anyway, they said they'd try to get
#lead-free primers for their reloads.

A long time ago, someone said Pro-load made lead-safe 45ACP loads, but when
I called, it turned out they didn't.  Is someone selling such a product
now?  (A primer without lead, plus a total metal jacket)
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:23:28 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <1992Aug11.084948.9679@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. ALF in spe)) writes:
#In <1992Aug10.010041.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fsmar@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
##Anyone ever looked up a .454 revolver??
##Has a mere 5 shots.
##And it stops everything, man included.
#
#I consider oversize calibers (.45+) to be less effective manstoppers
#than standard calibers (9mm thru .45) for reasons of overpenetration
#and excessive recoil (ypu can't stop what you don't hit).
#
While it's quite true that you can't stop what you can't hit, observation
of shooters with high-capacity semi-autos demonstrates that accuracy is
greatly reduced by a tendency to rely on the "next" round.  Ultimately,
that is round number 15 in a 13+1 pistol, and the target _stays_ missed.

This "ability" to miss is, as you have rightfully suggested, enhanced
by heavy recoil, which is a function of _both_ firearm weight and (loosely
speaking) energy.

In this group we hear that firearms are frequenty chosen by standards of
"ease of carry" or "ease of concealability", which standards frequently
equate to lightness, or, ***increased recoil***  TA-DAA!  To combine
light weight with pleasant recoil, it is necessary to select calibers
with minimized energy (I'm picking words carefully here).  Pretty soon,
to defend a "cute carry", one begins defending minimal cartridges, and
even loading them to the edge of reason, as in +P+, which increases
recoil and decreases accuracy.

Although I live in a rural area, and could care less about the dreaded
"over-penetration", I hear lack of overpenetration being used a positive
factor in "stopping power".  In truth, the shootee does not care if the
bullet overpenetrates after he is stopped, nor does he care if the
he was shot by a gun that carried nicely.  He cares only that he was
hit by a well-place energetic bullet.  

Both shooting and watching, the most accurate handguns I've seen have
been on the heavy side of median, and were certainly no more offensive
in recoil than many light-but-underpowered guns.

So we have two separate sets of problems:

1. What is nicest to carry without endangering the general populace
     (that's overpenetration)?

2. What is best for dumping well-placed energy into the target?

Can these be mutually exclusive?

I'd rather carry a shooter than shoot a carrier.

#Stopping an aggerssor isn't a matter of hitting him with as much Joule
#as possible.
#
#-- 
#| Holger Reusch                             |
#| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
#| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
#| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |
#


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: med.unc.edu!rslugg@concert.net (Robert Slugg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sotgun or rifle for defense?
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:35 GMT
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine

For home defense the distance will always be in the 2-7 yard range, so the
power and flat trajectory of a rifle aren't really needed, or should I
say, are less appropriate.  Also, keep in mind there may be more than one
person, so 3" magnum shells may actually be a handicap with regard to the
increased time needed to recover for a second shot.  In this regard, a 1oz
load in a 20 gauge shell may be ideal combining adequate velocity (1200
fps) with adequate mass (437 gr).  I'd love to have the time, place, and
raw materials to do some overpenetration studies with 2x4's and wallboard.

On another topic, I've been researching the theory and techniques of
reloading shotshells for hunting, using several of the manuals from
ballistic products, and they emphasize the use of copper plating and
buffering to improve shot patterns by maintaining roundness.  Another
company, precision reloading, sells a product called "cubic shot" which
apparently dramatically increases a shotguns short range pattern.  I'm
currently exploring whether altering the roundness of shot (#6, bb, and
4-buck) by deforming it with a hammer has any effect on the short range
patterning of said shot.  I suspect the pattern widening effect requires
the action of air resistance on the deformed pellets, and therefore would
be negligible at short ranges.  On the other hand, if a 5 yard pattern
opens up from 12" to 18" I would call that a significant improvement.  The
two companies also sell spread-r wads specifically for station 8 skeet and
those pesky sporting clays rabbit targets, and I'll be testing those for
changes in pattern improvement as well.  

Bob