From: ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: US presidential curse
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:38:32 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <Nov.17.03.35.41.1992.26520@geneva.rutgers.edu> baseball@catch-the-fever.scd.ucar.edu (Gregg Walters) writes:
>
>Welcome to the fray, but...
>
>Mr. Farrell, I deeply resent this personal comment.  Attack my ideas,
>but back off with the bit about my lack of open-mindedness.  

Indeed. In the interests of fair play (which I believe in) I apologize
for the nature of the remarks sounding too personal. 
Also in the interests of fair play, I have received a correction
about the Presidents dying in office. Zachary Taylor, elected in 1848,
died in office. (I'll read up on him).

Here's my main point: the errors of modern mainstream Christianity
seem to err in the direction of the scientific, materialistic
school of philosophy. This makes sense; it is the hallmark of our
day.  Most church people completely ignore the spiritual realm as a 
causal force in history and in day to day life. Gregg might be correct
about the zero-year Presidential deaths. But so too, there is sufficient
factual evidence to support the theory that a curse of some kind
by an enemy such as Tecumseh or one of his people against the U.S.
or the Presidency did take place.

This thread could really be one on the plausibility of spiritual
warfare in a modern, highly technological society. Some Christians
live as though it doesn't happen, while others tread nervously everywhere
in excessive fear and anxiety about it. 

If this post sees the light of day (I hope it will, since I owe Gregg
a public apology for a public offense), I'd be interested in hearing
thoughts on the idea that modern Christianity has a split in it over
the nature of the spiritual world and the Holy Spirit himself. On
one side of the divide, so to speak, are those who deny miracles,
spiritual warfare and so on, while on the other side of the divide
are those who err too far in the opposite direction and in fact
manufacture what has not happened.  Somewhere between them must be
the sanest and truest stance, no?

-- 
Peter Farrell			| "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, 
ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil 	| shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he
				| who does the will of my Father in heaven."

[I'd suggest that the truth of items like this is more important than
you suggest.  There are entirely too many Christian "urban legends".
I regularly receive postings claiming

  - that the president of a major U.S. corporation appeared
	on a TV show (even a specific date is usually named) to say
	that the company gave all its profits to the Church of
	Satan.  The host of the TV show says it never happened.
	(I've got a copy of the letter.)
  - that Ms. O'Hare has filed a peition with the FCC (a petition
	number is supplied) asking them to prohibit all Christmas
	shows.  The FCC says there is no such petition.
  - numerous hoaxes about seeing Noah's ark.

The first two are sufficiently clear that I refuse the postings.  The
third I allow.  There's a long and consistent history of hoaxes in
that area, but without going there myself I can't be absolutely sure
that some new claim is also a hoax (although some of our readers know
enough about the hoaxes to be able to debunk some of them).

I'm not entirely sure how one can always tell that a given thing is a
hoax, although the first example has enough signs that anyone who
understand U.S. corporations can see it's impossible.  But I am sure
that these things discredit Christians in the eyes of the world.  And
well they should.  If we don't care about the truth of what we say in
areas that are pretty easy to investigate, why should anyone take us
seriously when we make claims about matters of eternal significance?
There are enough rumors about satanic activity that turn out to be
false that many of us suspect there's nothing to it.

Thus I would suggest that we need to be careful not to repeat things
we've heard on vague authority, particularly in areas where there are
known problems with rumors.

--clh]