HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chico@athena.mit.edu (Thomas A Weston)
Subject: Re: roy NL
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 00:34:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.170328.14290@meaddata.com>, daves@meaddata.com (Dave Spencer) writes...
>|>In article <00960026.CE453E00@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
>|>|> If Brian Williams of Houston keeps pitching well and ends up with 10-12
>|>|> wins, he should get some votes, and maybe the rookie awrdin the NL award. and
>|>|> this point he is 7-4 with an ERA in the mid to low 3.00 range.

>|>   Huh???  There is no possible way excluding death, that the writers
>|>   will give the NL ROY to anyone other than Mr. Eric Karros. An
>|>   average pitcher like Williams can even compare to the stats Karros
>|>   has put up with the hapless Dodgers. Williams may have a shot at
>|>   the Rookie Pitcher's award, but the ROY, that would be a crime!

>	You think Karros has good stats?  They aren't awful, but, there
>is no way that I would say they are great (as you imply).  Right now
>Karros is hitting .255 / .299 / .443 (ba/oba/slg).  The only thing he
>has going for him is slugging.  He's a below average first baseman!
>Reggie Sanders, even with only 300 abs, is my choice.  He plays a
>tougher defensive position and has hit much better.  My second choice
>would be Alou and my third choice Karros.  Brian Williams has looked
>good but with only 13 starts right now I can't see giving him RoY.  If
>a pitcher gets around 20+ starts I'd consider him.

Karros is putting up those numbers in Dodger stadium (AKA Hitter's hell). 
Sanders, playing in Cincinnati isn't as good as his stats.  Karros in LA is
better than his.  I'm sure when the seasons over the Dodgers, with their sad
hitting and decent pitching, will have one of the lowest one year park factors
in recent history.  Karros's numbers in that environment are impressive.  When
you consider that on a team that had Eric Davis, Darryl Strawberry, Kal Daniels
and Juan Samuel for the middle of their lineup only Karros has delivered, it
becomes obvious that he's having a good rookie year.  Not great, but better than
anyone else out there.
From: G.R.Price@cm.cf.ac.uk (G R Price)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: (none)
Date: 31 Aug 92 10:46:04 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College of Cardiff, Cardiff, WALES, UK.
X-Mailer: Cardiff Computing Maths PP Mail Open News Gateway

Pitching Question
I got into baseball last summer on holiday in Boston.
I have benn delighted to discover this newsgroup. I was wondering if 
anyone out there could answer me this question :
What is the difference between a 'breaking' ball and a 'curve'?

Also is there any news on who the Sox got for Reardon, also
why did they trade him? When I watched the Sox last summer he looked,
to my uneducated eyes, pretty good.

Thanks in advance
Gwyn Price
From: rlwilliams@gallua.gallaudet.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: criteria for THE HALL
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:08:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: gallua.1992Sep4.120817.1
Organization: Gallaudet University

Hi,
	I was thinking about what should qualify a person to be inducted 
into Baseball's Hall of Fame. Here is what I came up with:

1. At some time during his career he should be generally thought of as the 
best in the game at his positon. This forexample would eliminate somone 
like Don Sutton who basically hung around a loooong time and yet assure 
someone like the Wizard of Oz entrance.

2. He should put up some impressive career numbers: 300 wins, 400 - 500 
hr, 3,000 hits etc or in the neighborhood.

3. He should not be compared against previous mistakes ("Well his numbers 
are better than so and so's so he should be in the Hall, man.")

4. His personal life should not be an issue. Whether hack Wilson was an 
alcoholic, Ty Cobb a racist, Rose a gambling fiend... It's what they do on 
the field that counts. On the flip side of the coin, charisma doesn't 
count.

Whatcha think?

skip
rlwilliams@gallua.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: david@mks.com (David Rowley)
Subject: Postscript/other stats form?
Organization: Mortice Kern Systems Inc., Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 17:07:38 GMT

Does anyone have a postscript, framemaker, or anything else for that
matter, baseball stats form?  I can make one myself, but would rather
not reinvent the wheel...

Please e-mail, rather than post.

Thanks,
David Rowley

-- 
     ll  // // ,~/~~\'   David Rowley
    /ll/// //l' `\\\     Mortice Kern Systems Inc.
   / l //_// ll\___/     35 King Street North, Waterloo, ON, Canada N2J 2W9
O_/                      519/884-2251, FAX 519/884-8861, david@mks.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bone@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Douglas J. Bone)
Subject: bonds for justice
Keywords: bonds, justice
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:02:55 GMT

A newspaper article this morning (either the SF Chronicle or NY Times)
noted that Bonds was eager to sign with San Diego but that the Padres
were uninterested.  The Braves were noted as being interested in signing
Bonds as a free agent, but only if they could trade Justice.  I don't
put much stock in this rumor, but have a few questions:

What could one get for Justice?

How old is Bonds?

Would one rather have Justice or Gant?

Justice was a hot property last winter, though his play this season and
propemsity for injury have tarnished his reputation.  Still, I would rather
have him than Bonds because he is younger-- Bonds is clearly a better
player now, but not that much better and not (perhaps) for much longer.
I doubt one could get enough for Justice to make that approach better than
simply signing someone.  The Braves need infeilders and a catcher.  The
pitching is great and the bullpen rescuable (there are enough good pitchers
around the organization). Who are the best infeilders available via trade?

Who do you think will have the better career-- Justice or Gant?  I would
have said Justice last year and would be still so inclined, though his
injuries are worrisome (a bad back this year, not on DL since early Spring).
--
Douglas Bone		Internet: bone@luciano.stanford.edu
Standard disclaimers	BITNET:   bone%luciano.stanford.edu@stanford
apply.			UUCP:   ..ucbvax!luciano!sierra.stanford.edu!bone
From: mard@quads.uchicago.edu (Adrian N. Marden)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: DAVID CONE TO BLUE JAYS
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:42:30 GMT
Reply-To: mard@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Aug27.170336.9564@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>Rumours of Kent+Sprague for Cone?  It sure improves the Jays pitching
>staff!  What is the rotation now?  Guzman, Cone, Morris, Key, Stot?
>Wells going back in the pen?  (They could use a quality lefty there.)
>
>It's an awfully high price to pay, though.  Do the Jays have anything
>left in the high minors?  Because they look to have a *very* expensive
>payroll next year otherwise.
>
>How many sub-$1 million players do they have for next year?  Guzman,
>Olerud, and Bell?  Anybody else?  They could run a $50 million payroll
>with ease (especially if they keep Cone and Carter).
>
>This looks to me like a good deal for both sides.  The Mets get two
>bats they can play at second and catcher.  The Jays get six starts
>from a very good pitcher.

	What about Todd Hundley? Isn't he the Mets' catcher of the future?
What happened?

-- 
*	Adrian "Nick" Marden  	    *	"The A's have Dennis Eckersley-	      *
*	mard@quads.uchicago.edu     *	he doesn't blow anyone!"	      *
*	home:(312)-684-1913	    *			-Steve Stone	      *
*	work(?):(312)-702-7269	    *					      *
From: heidenre@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Todd Heidenreich)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cal Ripken Jr.
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:43:24 GMT
Reply-To: heidenre@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Todd Heidenreich)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.sport.baseball, danforth.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu writes:
>Hello all,
>
>With Cal signing his new/big contract, I was wondering about
>his playing time.  The last time I heard, he was still playing
>every inning/game.  What is the status of this.  If he stopped,
>how long did he go, if he is still going, how many games/innings
>is he at now.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Bill

As of last night's game, Cal's streak now stands at 1699 games.  He
needs 432 more games to break Lou Gerhig's record.  This is expected
in June of 1995.

Cal is still playing every game and almost all the innings.  Once in
a while he will sit out after the seventh or eighth inning.

Todd

*****************************************************************
Todd R. Heidenreich     Code 1261      301-227-1176
Internet: heidenre@oasys.dt.navy.mil
David Taylor Model Basin, Carderock Division HQ, NSWC
"Sometimes your the windshield; Sometimes your the bug"
				  Dire Straits
*****************************************************************
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Red Sox poll?
Date: 27 Aug 92 22:56:44 GMT
Organization: Boo!

In <farenebt.714932548@craft.camp.clarkson.edu> farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Bri Farenell) writes:

>tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>Depending on what he gets for them or signs with the now-freed salary,
>>the Sox might even be competitive in '93.  But only if they keep the
>>young core of Plantier, Vaughn, Wedge, Valentin, Cooper, and Zupcic
>>intact to supplement Clemens, Viola, Dopson, and Harris pitching.
>						
>Again, what about their only hitter having a good season, Jody Reed.

Jody Reed is having a good season???? After a good start, he's virtually
been an automatic out for the last few months.  He's having the - by far -
worst year of his career.  If this and last year are true indications
of his ability, he's aging fast and is a below average second baseman at
this point.

That being said, the Red Sox might as well protect him - there isn't 
anybody else they need to protect, after all.

Greg 

-- 
  spira@panix.com       "The one-O delivery to Fisk.  He swings.  Long drive,  
 cmcl2!panix!spira      left field!  If it stays fair, it's gone!  Home Run!"  
158-17 Riverside Dr.                     Ned Martin, 10/22/75   
Whitestone NY 11357          (Insert your favorite baseball moment here)
From: kettler@mitme5.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Longest On-Base Streaks?
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:20:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: mitme5.28AUG199212203133
Distribution: na,local
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1992Aug27.145047.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu>, f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Fra writes...
>Everyone can name off the top of their head the men (AL and NL) with the
>longest hitting streaks.  But I'm wondering who, in the history of
>baseball, has the longest on-base streak?
> 
>It seems to me that this streak would be more meaningful to baseball
>watchers.  A pitcher can snap a hitting streak by not throwing anything
>close to a batter.  Wussy.  But a pitcher HAS to break an on-base 
>streak by throwing strikes to a batter and retiring him every single time.
>Manly.
> 
For the AL, it was likely Joe Dimaggio. First, he had the 56-game hitting 
streak. In the game against Cleveland, he got on base once from either a walk 
or an error (I don't remember which). Then he had a 18-game hitting streak. 
This means that he reached base at least 75 straight games. 

In the NL, it could be Vince Coleman. I remember that he got on base 50 
straight games one year with the Cardinals.

The problem is that records for longest streak getting on base is no kept. I 
remember watching a game with the announcers talking about Coleman's on-base 
streak and they said that the Cards were having a very difficult time finding 
out who had the longest on-base streak since those records weren't kept.

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic"
From: hymowitz@whatever.cs.jhu.edu (Hymie!)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: ending streaks (was Re: Longest On-Base Streaks? )
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:15:42 GMT
Distribution: na,local
Organization: Creative Sensualities dept, Jacquie's House of Underwear

kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.054503.22286@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> hymowitz@whatever.cs.jhu.edu (Hymie!) writes:
>>f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin) writes:
>>>A pitcher can snap a hitting streak by not throwing anything
>>>close to a batter.  Wussy. 

>>not necessarily -
>>10.24 (b) a consecutive-game hitting streak shall not be terminated if all the

>after retiring a batter once, the pitcher could then walk him the next few
>times up to end the hitting streak.   A very Wussy thing to do.

very few pitchers would actually be that wussy in most circumstances.
if, for example, /two/ players had 40-game hitting streaks, then yeah, maybe.
i also remember a story of two players competing for a batting title. the
teams played a double-header on the last day of the season.  one batter
took a .0003 lead after the first game.  he sat out the second game, while
his opponent saw 5 walks - one that led to a run.

but i would doubt that this occurs in every-day baseball.  look at pete
rose.  while eric show prob'ly didn't *enjoy* giving up the 4192nd hit,
he didn't walk rose to avoid it.  nobody has thrown at cal ripken's
legs to sideline him for a day or two.

--hymie
hymowitz@cs.jhu.edu                                         hymie@jhuvms.bitnet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm just a soul whose intentions are good.
Oh, Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.
--Nina Simone
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu (Tony Nardo)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Blue Jays - Cut in half
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:32:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: warper.trn.715534326
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

mckinney@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Patrick Mckinney) writes:

>shorts, (I fear flames)  the following opinion is added...


>WE, THE FANS OF THE ORIOLES OF BALTIMORE, ARE WATCHING WHAT IS BEING
>KNOWN AS THE ANNUAL MIGRATION SOUTH OF THE BLUE JAYS. THEY ARE
>ABOUT TO LOSE POSSESSION OF FIRST PLACE; WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE NOW CALLING
>THE "CANADIAN CHOKE"....

>insert flames here......

No flames.  But with the anemic offense being put forth by the O's over their
past 5 games (2 wins in which only 2 runs were scored; not one in which more
than 6 runs were scored), I'm not ready to crow about the Orioles' chances
to overtake the faltering Jays.  The Orioles' hopes have been surviving off
their pitching staff and little else -- and we've seen those pitching arms
go sour before.

Toss in a recent bit of aggrevation to Hoiles' wrist (the one that was broken),
add a recent penchant for losing to teams with worse records than their own,
sprinkle with a dash of memories of when the O's couldn't get more than 1/2
game past the Jays earlier this season, and I'd be a little more cautious in
my optimism.

Besides, memories of '89 still keep me from calling the Jays "choke artists"
when matched with the Orioles.  The Jays didn't have a 7+ game lead to blow.

(Yes, yes, the O's weren't expected to even reach .500 that year.  But if the
Jays had been truly willing to perform the "Canadian Choke", they would have
been undaunted by the Orioles' inexperience and choked anyway. :-) )
--
Tony Nardo,		   INET: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu, trn@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
 Johns Hopkins Univ./APL   UUCP: {backbone!}mimsy!aplcomm!trn
	"Never mock a team before it's mathematically eliminated."
From: vreddy@das.harvard.edu (Venkatesh Reddy)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Clark traded from the Sox?
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:57:30 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

For those of you not in Boston, there was an interesting story on the
news last night that basically pointed out that, in preparation for
the upcoming West Coast trip, Clark has cleaned out his locker at
Fenway. Now, normally, this wouldn't be of much concern except that the
same news report ALSO pointed out that his NAMEPLATE was removed from
the locker too... so basically, his locker was no longer his. Was he
traded? Did he just sell the nameplate for some money? (low blow I know) :)
Where is Clark going?

-- Venk --
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dave@silver.sni.ca (Dave Till)
Subject: Re: DAVID CONE TO BLUE JAYS
Organization: People Happy With The State Of Juan Guzman's Health, Inc.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:39:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.000249.433@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>Hm.  Signing Cone certainly wouldn't hurt them.  But how many $5
>million contracts can they afford?  They will surely sign Carter to a
>lot of money.  Morris is already making the big bucks.  Surely they
>will ask Dave Winfield back too.  And Jimmy Key?  Dave Stieb?  Gruber,
>White, and Ward are already signed to hefty contracts.
>
>I suppose they can afford it, though.  Best attendance in the majors
>by far, and a reasonably lucrative TV contract I believe.  Maybe they
>will be a *successful* high-contract team?

The Jays are a staggeringly wealthy team.  They draw 4+ million a year,
have a nation-wide TV contract, and rich owners (90% Labatt beer,
10% Bank Of Commerce).  This is the first year that they have really
flexed their financial muscles.

Having said that, I still don't believe they will sign Cone.  He will
want $20 million over 5 years, and the Jays won't want him for more
than 3.  (Though they might try to offer 3 years guaranteed with 2
option years, and see if he'll take that.)

>If it is Sprague and Kent, they aren't backups.  They are starters.
>Toronto has simply insisted (in their usual warped fashion) on
>starting the backups (Gruber and Border) the entire year.  Why ask
>why?

One word:  defense.  Gruber hasn't been hitting at all (he got his
first RBI in August last night), but he is still playing reasonably
good defense.  Kent wasn't a good 3B at all:  he seemed to be making
an error a game out there.

Sprague is being converted to catcher, and is still learning the position.
I think he will eventually be able to handle it, but he's not there yet.
Borders, on the other hand, has finally made the grade as a defensive
catcher.

(BTW:  Sprague *cannot* handle 3B, unless he's improved since last year.
He makes Jeff Kent look like Brooks Robinson out there.  Sprague is
really the new Hector Villaneuva:  great bat, but no defensive position.)

>This is the team which has Devon White leading off and Joe
>Carter batting third ahead of Winfield and Olerud!  But I agree with
>your main point.  The Jays have enough depth to afford to part with
>two starter-quality players.

White did well last year, and Cito is hoping that he can bounce back.
(Also:  moving him out of leadoff -- which he apparently likes -- might
affect his defense, and we don't want *that* to happen.  Besides, the
Jays aren't exactly hip-deep in top-of-the-order types:  the only other
candidate, Olerud, is very slow, and would clog the bases big-time.)
-- 
--Dave Till ("dave@silver.sni.ca", or try "dave@snitor.uucp"; as a last resort,
try "dwtill@watyew.waterloo.edu")  * My Canada includes the World Series. *
"Take it from me, a veteran.  The indicators of mental health in this country
are sleeping habits, hair length and beards." -- from *Whale Music*
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies, & Statistics (was Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:43:00 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake psycho@brtpa25.bnr.ca (Paul Jezioranski):

>In article <1992Sep3.013519.8911@panix.com>, spira@panix.com (Greg
>"Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:

>> And we can keep it simple by eliminating a lot of these.
>> Leave us with PAs, SLG, OBP and I'll let you eliminate all the rest.
>> Is that simple enough for you?

>Sure. Simply idiotic. An example:

	[NB: Here's where things get a bit confused.]

>	Rudy Fafoofnik: 680 Plate appearances, 1.000 SLG, 1.000 OBP
>......	but he scored zero runs because he hit 680 two out singles and the guy
>	behind him struck out 680 times.

Now, Paul doesn't exactly say what this is supposed to be an example *of*, but
from context I'll guess that this is meant to be an example of a player whose
OBP, SLG, and PA give a misleading picture of his ability and value as a 
player.

But, if that's the case, then we have to conclude that Paul believes

	(a) it's Fafoofnik's fault that he always came up with 2 out,
and
	(b) it's Fafoofnik's fault that I was batting behind him.

Frankly, I can't see any way a sane person could believe either of those.

>Sure you can draw a "likely" conclusion from just those three stats, but
>you can draw a better conclusion from what the player himself did.

EXACTLY!!!  And yet, you insist on also looking at things the player himself
did *not* do, like put runners on base to be driven in.  As you yourself point
out, you can't be awarded RBIs without help from the players batting in front
of you.  If I'm trying to evaluate an individual player, I'll just confuse the
issue by using measures that depend on how good his teammates are.

>Singles, doubles, triples, homers, runs scored, walks, at bats, and RBI

You were fine up to that last one.

>give a better than "likely" conclusion of the player's value to the
>team, and you can calculate your three numbers from these stats. My
>contention is that adding external dependencies (such as who and how
>many were in scoring position, who was pitching, etc) only complicates

Of course.  But nobody here is arguing in favor of adding those situational
factors.  I think you must have misread something back there somewhere.


-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
From: jhg8680@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon  Hamkins)
Subject: Re: Home Run Rule: Lind's Hit in Dodger-Pirate Game
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 18:25:22 GMT

charly@hal.COM (Charly Rhoades) writes:


>Rules-folk:  Did any of you happen to see the Jose Lind hit during
>yesterday's Dodgers-Pirates game?  From the excerpt I saw the ball
>was batted off the outfieled wall, and as it was coming down off the
>wall, the outfielder inadvertantly knocked the ball (with his hand
>or glove) back up and over the wall.

>It was ruled a double at the time.  Any comments?

Sure.  I saw the play briefly on ESPN last night, and it appears that
they made the correct call.

They couldn't award a home run based on the normal rule, 7.05(a),
because the ball didn't leave the playing field in flight.  IN FLIGHT
describes a "batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched
the ground or some object other than a fielder."

There are rules discussing how many bases to award when a fielder
deflects a ball into the stands.

6.09 "The batter becomes a runner when---
(g) Any bounding fair ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands,
or over or under a fence on fair or foul territory, in which case the
batter and all runners shall be entitled to advance two bases;
(h) Any fair fly ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or
over the fence into foul territory, in which case the batter shall be
entitled to advance to second base; but if deflected into the stands or
over the fence in fair territory, the batter shall be entitled to a
home run. ..."

The only question is whether the ball was a "bounding ball" or a "fly
ball" at the time of deflection.  I'd say it's a bounding ball, since
it already hit the wall.  I think 6.09(h) could be made more clear that
it only applies to balls that are in flight.

     ----Jon Hamkins  (hamkins@uiuc.edu)
         University of Illinios
         Urbana, IL
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball