HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Semantics of "to be"
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 17:00:22 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.115201.11214@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil> yoshi@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil (D M Yoshikami) writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.152841.13733@bcrka451.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>>
>>Could you write this without "is"?  How about:
>> [more stuff omitted]
>>Done as a quick exercise only - there is still room for improvement
>>(uh, make that, these sentences could still be improved).
>                                             ^^^^^^^^^^
>:-)

Oops!  :-)

>>Now, the capital question - are my alternate versions really an
>>improvement as far as the reader is concerned?
>
>Good question.  This depends highly on the text involved and what the writer
>was trying to say.  We prefer active to passive voice simply because active
>is clearer, more forceful, and, uh, active!!  But this does not mean that the
>passive voice does not have its importance: a writer or speaker may use it
>intentionally when the subject isn't known, to highlight something other
>than the subject, or to provide some intentional ambiguity.  The author may
>desire ambiguity -- I would guess that Federal Documents have this to 
>diffuse the blame :-) -- but whether that ambiguity is really necessary in
>most cases, is arguable.

One thing I realized while doing my little exercise - writing "to be"
sentences is much easier - it's an undemanding structure.  Avoiding "to
be" made the writing much harder, because it removed much of the
ambiguity inherent in the vaguer sentences.  And bad writing showed up
more clearly in the be-less statements, too.  So "to be" can be an
efficient shortcut, but like many shortcuts it can easily lead us into
trouble . . .

This reminds of the great "goto" debate in computer programming - it is
generally believed that programs written without "goto" are "better"
than those with.  However, it is still quite possible to write very bad
programs without "goto", and very good ones with "goto".  The most that
can be said is that "goto" make it easier to do sloppy programming (oh,
I forgot this condition, OK, I'll just "goto" over-there and . . .).

In the end, the key is thinking through what you want to say, then
finding the words that best convey that messages.  (And while the
previous sentence uses "is", I doubt it would really be improved by
trying to avoid that.  Or:  I doubt we could really improve it by
trying to avoid that?  :-) )

The Rhealist - Rheal Nadeau - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Beginning Writing Books
Keywords: writing book
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 19:40:20 GMT

olsen@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Diane Olsen) writes:
>My favorite, which is obscure enough that it's unlikely to be in the FAQ
>for this group (there IS one, isn't there?) ...

Yes.

>Speaking of the FAQ, if there is one, why don't I see it in news.answers?

As the "List of Periodic Informational Postings" (in news.answers) points
out, it's posted every other month:

     Newsgroups: misc.writing,news.answers
     Subject: FICTION: Misc.writing Frequently Asked Questions
     From: betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry)
     Frequency: every two months
     Archive-name: writing/faq

     Newsgroups: misc.writing,news.answers
     Subject: Misc.writing Recommended Booklist
     From: betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry)
     Frequency: every two months
     Archive-name: writing/bibliography

As that article also points out, you can retrieve FAQs, via anonymous
ftp from pit-manager.mit.edu [18.172.1.27], directories under "usenet"
-- or by mail to mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu, with the command
"send usenet/name-of-newsgroup/name-of-archived-file" in the message.

--                    __
Ellen Keyne Seebacher \/             elle@midway.uchicago.edu
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: finding time to write
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:54:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: 128.mtan-161092101351
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC

In article <alberti.719179246@staff.tc.umn.edu>, alberti@ux.acs.umn.edu
(Theresa J Alberti) wrote:
> 
> In <1992Oct15.141507.1@lure.latrobe.edu.au> miuvdd@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes:
> 
> >In article <BvvHr0.7G2@unx.sas.com>, sascmc@pecos.unx.sas.com (Christopher Mark Conn) writes:
> >> How much time do you spend writing per week?
> >> How do you find the time? 
> 
> I'm a stay at home mother of twin one-year olds.
> You just have to make up your mind that writing is important and fit it into
> your life.  

Wow!  You've just put yourself on my "people I'm inspired by" list.

I, too, began writing when my children were small (the eldest
of that disruptive group is now 18) but my children were not,
(thank God:-)) twins.

 One of the now useful things I learned to do during that time
was to abandon the prescribed notebooks and tape recorders
and instead compose and rearrange ideas in my head.  Back in the
old days, this technique enabled me to use the few precious minutes
of peace  between bottles and diapers to produce finished copy.
First and second drafts and reviews of lengthy notes were luxuries
 I could rarely afford.

The benefit of all this is a lack of dependence on time-consuming
writers' " memory aides" such as extensive outlines, hours' worth of
tape-recorded thoughts, and notes-files software.  I can usually
 get my ideas/ scenes/ dialogue down on paper in a fairly finished form;
 reworking a scene is a semi-pleasurable  experience.  (No, that's a lie
 that I buy into when my writing is going well.  Reworking a scene is
still traumatic  and time-consuming.)

 Of course, the problem with learning to write in this manner
is that, as rampant middle age overwhelms me,
I often have the sneaking suspicion that  my best ideas
get lost between putting on my right shoe and my left.

Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)
From: jerryn@glnserv.UUCP (Jerry Norris)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Notes for writing
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 17:36:12 CDT
Organization: Vermi-net, Houston, Tx. 77098

miuvdd@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes:

> > What I like to know is, do you keep notes? And if so, how do you organize
> > your notes?
> >
>
> Well I carry a note book and pen with my at all times, just
> in case inspiration should strike at the most unlikely
> or inconvinent time (good odds!).
>
> Morgana
> *****************************************************

As I mentioned earlier, I keep a micro-cassette recorder around when I'm
not in front of the keyboard for times when inspiration strikes.  It takes
just a little bit of getting used to, but then so does taking the notebook
out and writing notes.

Then, when I'm back at the computer(s), I transfer whatever notes I've got
for the day/week/month.  Since I've got two computers at home and I'm
constantly updating the files between the two of them, I have a total of
three backups; one on the "main" computer, one on Frankenstein, and a
third on the transfer disk (I may soon be able to get a couple of network
cards from a friend for free and so I can set things up to automatically
update the files as well as put them onto disk!  I _really_ like
computers!).

later,
jerry.

email address:  xcluud!glnserv!jerryn

All flames judged on original content and local color, with preference
given to those using cobalt as a coloring agent.
From: jerryn@glnserv.UUCP (Jerry Norris)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Usage: To try and find the answer.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 04:33:14 CDT
Organization: Vermi-net, Houston, Tx. 77098

bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible) writes:

/* much written about McMurty's use of "to try and..." vs. "to try to..." */


> Secondarily, I would be interested in how much control you
> think an editor has or should have over the wording in a piece of fiction.
>
>

Funny that I read this post tonight instead of yesterday.

A friend and I were talking about writing; the craft, as well as the
relationship between craft and art, and one of the things that he pointed
out was a book that contained articles writen by James Blish under the
name Atheling.

In particular, the article discussed was one concerning flames
Blish/Atheling was receiving from other writers due to his remarks
concerning a piece of fiction in Astounding.

In a nutshell, the argument was who has more responsibility over the
publishing of a poor quality story; the editor for publishing it or the
writer for doing such a sloppy job.

I haven't read the story, and was only able to read part of the article,
but Blish gives some descriptions of the crimes perpetrated by the writer.
Blish went on to say that this story was written by an inexperienced
writer, who was not at fault for having written a bad story, since part of
the act of learning to write is to learn how to _not_ write badly (an
apprenticeship that most people go through hoping to emerge out of as
quickly as possible).  The fault lay with the editor in taking a poorly
written piece and foisting it onto the readership of the magazine.

Blish went on.  According to his viewpoint (and I agree with much of what
he said), the editor is responsible for three things:

1) If the story is badly written, the editor should return the manuscript,
or at the least point out that the story was not accepted because it was
written badly.  It is up to the person in question on how they would
handle this;

2) If the story needed a rewrite, the editor should send the manuscript
back with suggestions on what would make the magazine acceptable.

3) If the story was worth saving, but deadline time was short
and little time was left for requesting a re-write or it was needed to
fill blank space, then, "it was the job of [the editors] to turn it into
some form of English..."

In the final tally, the editor is responsible for what goes into print,
and in this case has a great deal of control over the type of story that
will get published.  But it is the writer who is responsible for the
wording, since it will, after all, be his name on the by-line.  Unless it
is a picayune error in grammar or punctuation; something the writer
obviously over-looked in the final draft, the editor should allow the
writer to change it, or to agree to words being changed.

Of course, you're getting advice from someone who hasn't been published
yet, so these arguments may be so much hot air.

later,
jerry.


email address:  xcluud!glnserv!jerryn

All flames judged on original content and local color, with preference
given to those using cobalt as a coloring agent.
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re:    It, as a subject.
Date: 16 Oct 92 13:20:57 GMT
Organization: Dobonia
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com


In article <1992Oct15.181539.4496@srg.srg.af.mil>, dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552) writes:
|
|"It was a dark and stormy night..."  (Some early Victorian novelist whose
|name scrambled right out of my eye sockets.)

I believe this is the famed Edward Bulwer-Lytton, whose name now
graces an annual contest for authors of deliberately supercharged
melodrama.  I can't confirm that he was Victorian, but he was British
and certainly not modern.

I'll also repeat the opening line of one of my favorite novels, which
I quoted earlier in the verb-to-be thread:

"It was a cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. . . ."
(1984, for those unfortunates not familiar with the book.)




-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible)
Subject: Usage: To try and find the answer.
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 19:34:01 GMT

	I recently finished reading Larry McMurtry's _Lonsome Dove_, which I
enjoyed, but I was distracted by his frequent use of the expression 
"... to try and <verb> ..." instead of "... to try to <verb> ...".  (I've also 
frequently seen this form used in less formal writing including post to this 
group.)  Now, a *lot* of effluent has passed under the bridge since I was a 
young man studying English grammar, so I can not put a label on this form, but 
I'm reasonably sure it is incorrect -- or was at one time.  The fact that it 
was used throughout McMurtry's book, however, implies to me that his editor 
approved of its usage.  The phrase was not used in dialog nor, in my opinion, 
to provide a "folksy" voice to the prose.
	The language does change as time passes, of course, and thus my 
question: does current usage accept, for example, "to try and find" in lieu of 
"to try to find"?  Secondarily, I would be interested in how much control you 
think an editor has or should have over the wording in a piece of fiction.


Just having trouble trying to keep up with the times.

Regards,
tony
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Usage: To try and find the answer.
Date: 15 Oct 1992 14:21:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu




In a previous article, jerryn@glnserv.UUCP (Jerry Norris) says:
>
>A friend and I were talking about writing; the craft, as well as the
>relationship between craft and art, and one of the things that he pointed
>out was a book that contained articles writen by James Blish under the
>name Atheling.

>...

>In a nutshell, the argument was who has more responsibility over the
>publishing of a poor quality story; the editor for publishing it or the
>writer for doing such a sloppy job.

>...

>Blish went on.  According to his viewpoint (and I agree with much of what
>he said), the editor is responsible for three things:

>...

>3) If the story was worth saving, but deadline time was short
>and little time was left for requesting a re-write or it was needed to
>fill blank space, then, "it was the job of [the editors] to turn it into
>some form of English..."
>
>In the final tally, the editor is responsible for what goes into print,
>and in this case has a great deal of control over the type of story that
>will get published.  But it is the writer who is responsible for the
>wording, since it will, after all, be his name on the by-line.  Unless it
>is a picayune error in grammar or punctuation; something the writer
>obviously over-looked in the final draft, the editor should allow the
>writer to change it, or to agree to words being changed.


The trouble with the "picayune error in grammar or punctuation" is that it
sometimes isn't.  I've only sold a few stories, but I've run into times
when changes that seem small aren't so to me.  What seems an error in
punctuation may be the result of trying out that sentence six different
ways, printing them all out, staring at them, reading them aloud, sleeping
on it...  

It -doesn't- bother me to have an editor question something, or make a
change on the ms., and send it to me.  Then I can explain my reasons,
or come up with a compromise. 

It sounds like a lot of fuss over a comma or capital letter, but I figure,
if it's worth someone's time there to mark it in red, it's worth my time to
write a friendly paragraph explaining why I prefer my way and how set I am
(or am not) on keeping it. 

By the way, I haven't had any editor say, "What?  You question my will? 
Then -keep- your pathetic tale!" I think that scenario, along with the
Snoopy-style rejection slip, is mostly in the fevered imaginings of
hungry writers. 

Bonita Kale
From: fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Need some help
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:43:28 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA


Leonard Paul Olszewski was kind enough to send the articles in
questions.  Thanks to him and to those he beat to the trigger.


John Fisher at Hewlett-Packard |
in Santa Clara, CA             |  Suicide is the most sincere  
fish@sc.hp.com                 |  form of self-criticism.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: charless@sco.COM (AutoPope)
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Organization: The Somewhat Contagious Operation, Inc.
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1992 07:47:08 GMT


In article <1992Sep29.194704.23123@tamsun.tamu.edu> mfc1493@tamuts.tamu.edu (Michael Frank Caver) writes:
>>"I thought everybody wrote two to
>>three times as much as would fit in the finished book."
>>
>>You're joking, right?
>
>Please tell me that you are!
>
>Ratboy

Why should she be?

Got an aversion to hard work, have we?

<<for the humor-impaired: :-) :-) :-) >>

-- 
Charlie Stross aka charless@scol.sco.com ..... UNIX oriented text mangler
WARNING: The opinions voiced in the preceding electronic document are the
product of a warped mind. Take two before meals. 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: brein@gpvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Barry Rein)
Subject: FICTION: Pushcart Prize
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:02:17 GMT

I am seeking information on the Pushcart Prize for short stories.  Does
anyone know who awards it, and what you get if you win it?

Thank you.

Please reply dirctly to:
******************************************************************************
*                               Barry Rein                                 
 *
*                        brein@dsfvax.jpl.nasa.gov                         
 *
******************************************************************************
*                              No clever comment.                          
 * 
******************************************************************************
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Date: 14 Oct 92 05:47:05 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Dave Gagne asks if I polish as I go, and if I'm making stuff up along the
way. Yes to both, at least this time. I'm finding it works to rough out the
scenes with general description and incident, and then put in the little
details (first the house, then the kiln and apple orchard in the yard). I
know the general direction of the story, but not yet the specific incidents
and problems my characters will face.

How finished is the prose? Very, I hope! I need to get on to Chapter 2, and
word processing makes it easy to expand a story without advancing it...you
just embroider and embroider.

As for Chuq's suggestion that my bloodthirsty but lovable villains, the
Exteca, are in any way inspired by Usenetters...shame on him for even
imagining such a scandalous idea! :)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: daveg@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Gagne)
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Organization: University of BC, Electrical Engineering
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:06:10 GMT

In article <16272@mindlink.bc.ca> Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>I've just finished chapter 1 of Redmagic; 3400 words, about right for an
>introductory chapter. Though it's taken me the scandalously long time of 12
>days to get that much done, I'll need to take a couple of days away from it
>to let it cool. Then I'll see what little touches it still needs.

Question: Do you "polish" as you go, or will you write until the book
is done & then go through the whole thing to "polish" at that point?
(Or do you do both :-) ). In other words, how "finished" is the prose
at this early stage?

>I still have only a very general outline: [ ... ]

Are you just making it up as you go, or do you have a direction/ending
in mind?

Dave
-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Dave Gagne.              | UBC VLSI Lab                                  |
|  daveg@ee.ubc.ca          | University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: rmr@sgi.com (Robert M. Reimann)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: finding time to write
Date: 12 Oct 92 18:52:33 GMT
Organization: Technical Publications, Silicon Graphics, Inc.

sascmc@pecos.unx.sas.com (Christopher Mark Conn) writes:

>How much time do you spend writing per week?
>How do you find the time? I'm trying to approach
>it the way I would an exercise program, finding a
>time and committing to it. I'd be interested in 
>your ideas.

If you're going to approach it that way, try starting
out by writing a hundred words a day (and more, if the
mood strikes you).  Once you're able to do that on a
regular basis, expand from there.  A friend of mine
ensures that she will write every day by promising
to write a $100 check (to her favorite charity) every
time she misses a day.  She maintains that this
method works very well for her.


				Robert.
From: cctat@othello.ucdavis.edu (Ivars Balkits)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Carefull, studied splatting
Date: 7 Oct 92 19:01:04 GMT
Organization: Information Technology, UC Davis

I like the term "noise sentences." I've never identified those as such,
but your analogy (to electronic noise, I'm guessing) fits.

Ivars
isbalkits@ucdavis.eud
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Re: Long hand.
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Reply-To: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 07:14:47 GMT

In article <92280.080958KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>
     Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:

>I wanted to find out how many of
>you good people in netland write in long hand?

   I write long-hand occassionally, when I'm away from the terminal.  I
find that what gets written longhand usually is, as you said, very
different from what I say on the terminal.  Sometimes it's sparser,
sometimes it seems much more rich.  Either way, it's usually the
leaping-off point for the style I'm trying to capture.  Longhand
doesn't always serve the purpose, but it is functionally different, for
me at least, from typing.

         Elf !!!
-- 
Elf Sternberg    __   |     I have looked into the abyss, and the abyss
elf@halcyon.com  \/   | has looked into me.  Neither liked what we saw.
elf@polari.online.com |                              - Brother Theodore
From: bthomas@dumaine.gac.edu (Barbara L Thomas)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re:Long Hand
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:05:46 GMT

I do quite a bit of short story writing, but find that writing it out long  
hand takes me too long.  Maybe I am part of a spoiled younger generation  
that was raised with continual exposer to computers, but I find that my  
typing speed is much closer to the speed at which my brain formulates  
phrases, sentences and stories.  I write something out in long hand if an  
idea occurs to me when I'm without my computer, but most of the time I  
find it frustrating to have to slow my thinking processes down to allow my  
hand to keep up.

--
Barbara L. Thomas
"The World may never know."
bthomas@nic.gac.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing