HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lefty@apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:36:36 GMT
Organization: Our Lady of Heavy Artillery

In article <1992Jul16.123002.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>, holzman@fnalf.fnal.gov
(Daniel B. Holzman) wrote:
> 
> Buddhism, N.A. religions, and Hinduism _are_ Pagan religions.

At least in the case of Buddhism, this is a highly debatable proposition.

It is likewise debatable whether Buddhism is, in fact, a _religion_.

--
Lefty (lefty@apple.com)
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: 20 Jul 92 10:40:23 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <92202.160459J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) writes:
>Should not the name therefore be alt.pagan.wicca?
>
>I support the idea, although I'm not sure whether we have enough
>wiccans desiring to post with such precise focus to justify the
>subgroup.

I third the motion...  And think that there are enough wiccans present to justify the newsgroup.

(Hell, many people in the Chicagoland area that I know hwo are on the Net, view alt.pagan to be composed of the "StarHawk Wiccan" crowd...  :)  )

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
            
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 11:56:36 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:

> 
> In article <ZLiBoB7w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T
> 
> >[Lots of really nasty personal attacks and name-calling deleted...]
> 
> Gee, Ailsa, hit a raw nerve, didn't I?
> 
> I'm truly sorry that you can't address the issues without attacking me
> personally or name-calling.  That's the problem -- there is generally
> little reasoned discussion about the issues, the solutions, etc.
> People just square off, start name calling, get into throwing rocks,
> and finally a riot ensues.
> 
> If you'd care to talk about this in a reasonable manner, please respond
> again.  I refuse to add flames to your fire.
> 
no.  there IS no reasonable answer to ytour suggestion that gay rights 
activists should be working for straight rights.  if you can't see that 
by suggesting this, you are implying that gay people's problems in 
society are no worse than yours, and that this is 1) insulting and 2) 
stupid and possibly 3) bigoted, then there is really no poinbt in talking 
to you.  you ARE helping to perpetuate the problems you talk about, just 
by sounding off in this asinine way in this newsgroup.

if you consider someone as moderate as janis an extermist who has no 
credibility with you, then perhaps you ought to look at whether you are 
not,k in fact, conservative.

                                           -ailsa

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: a very good pagan kids book
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:32:37 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

my mother bought two books by Barbara Berger for katy for her birthday.  one is
_When the Sun Rose_ which is quite nice, and also a good pagan kidbook, but
_Grandfatehr Twilight_ is WONDERFUL.

here is the text (without permission):

Grandfather Twilight lives among the trees,

When the day is done, he closes his book, combs his beard, and puts on his
jacket.

Next, he opens a wooden chest that is filled with an endless strand of pearls.
He lifts the strand, takes one pearl from it, and closes the chest again.

Then, holding the pearl in his hand, Grandfather Twilight goes for a walk.

The pearl grows larger with every step.

Leaves begin to whisper.  Little birds hush.

Gently, he gives the pearl to the silence above the sea.

Then Grandfather Twilight

goes home again.

He gets ready for bed.

And he goes to sleep.

Good night.

that's the story.  but telling you the text doesn't do it justice.  the
pictures that go along with it are beautiful.  if you haven't got a kid, buy
it for yourself.  it's worth it.  i won't even try to describe them, words
don't really do them justice.  but there are some wonderful pagan kidbooks out
there, i have found...

                                          -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
"If it has tires or testicles,             Silence \      / Action
 you're going to have trouble                 =     \    /    =
 with it."                                  Death    \  /    Life
     -Ohio state Senator Linda Furney                 \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 22:30:24 GMT

In response to Richard Darsie's FireWalk story, Tim O'Neill  writes;

>"The Vikings did something similar to firewalking? Have you got
>any evidence for this?"

  Ever taken a bath in ice cold water after sitting in a bath-house?

  Perhaps the opposite direction, but quite possibly the same extreme.

>"Well Richard, the group support may have had a great deal to do with
>your plucking up the courage to step into the coals, but it had nothing
>to do with the lack of third degree burns to your feet. That was due to
>basic physics."

  So your point then, Tim, must be that fire-walking is a magic so
highly advanced that it appears to be technology?

  Cool.

  Like Tolkien said, don't examine the bones of the soup too
closely -- especially if you're happy with its taste (the last part's mine).

  That was a really beautiful story, Richard.  Please don't hesitate to
post more.  For my own tastes, there's no need to quantify or technically
justify ritual experiences.  Your writing sounded like it came from the
heart, and you really brightened up my day.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: royalyn@trigger.ksu.ksu.edu (Royalyn S Nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: female bodies
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:34:04 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: trigger.ksu.ksu.edu


>It strikes me as being a sad state of affairs that we should have to force 
ourselves to 
>meet some "social ideal" therefore I say again the human body is one of 
>the most beautiful things to behold regardless of the measurements.
>                                        Blessed Be,
>                                                Liam
>
>------------------
>lobster.hou.tx.us!brewich!liam (Liam)
>The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350

I agree totally.....


Shadowhawke
From: Paul.Harvey@ofa123.Fidonet.org (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Men are Scum etc.
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:34:01 GMT
Organization: Universal Electronics Inc. (Public access BBS)

--  

Paul Harvey
Internet: Paul.Harvey@ofa123.Fidonet.org
Compuserve: >internet:Paul.Harvey@ofa123.Fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Subject: Re: Who cares - gay rights
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 00:26:37 GMT

Even within alternative religion, one often sees a rather disturbing
shuffling movement as each sub-group (i.e. witchcraft, Native American
spirituality, New Age, etc) tries to obtain respectability by
dissociating itself from the others.  One of the first things almost any
witch will tell you is that she's not a Satanist.  Which is true; but
why is it priority #1?  Because someone has to be thrown to the dogs so
that we can escape.

I'm sure the same thing happens when racism, gay rights, etc. are the
issue.  Gay rights supporters trying to push the censure off onto the
leather community, for example.  "*We're* all right, we don't do things
like *that*."

In the long run all the groups lose, because they sacrifice mutual 
support.  And throwing each other to the dogs is a very short-term 
solution to our own problems.  Dogs don't go away from being fed.

"...and when they came for me, no one was left to say anything."

Storm/Mary K. Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston)
Subject: Re: Bea Arthur
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 09:07:47 GMT

FORTMAPL@UDAVXB.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU (Paul Fortman : free spirit) writes:
: 
: 	From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
: 	Newsgroups: alt.pagan
: 	Subject: Re: something I just wanted to complain about
: 	> 
: 	> Personally, Bea Arthur *is* one of the few females that I would even
: 	> condsider as a "turn on."
: 
: Cool!  Another Bea Arthur fan.  
: 
: I think Bea Arthur is very sexy.  

	Could it be that Bea Arthur is one aspect of the triple goddess?
If so is she the maid or the crone? I suppose it would depend on your
definition of crone.

	Blessed Bea.
  
-- 
Conrad Leviston	 | Got to find a brightness in the soul,
mongoose@yoyo.	 | Not look outside to find out where we are,
cc.monash.edu.au | Otherwise you won't be satisfied, 
Save the gherkin | 'Til you've made posession of the stars. (K.Wallinger)
From: idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: 31 Jul 92 07:08:16 GMT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #1, Edmonton, AB, Canada

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
 
> Thank you for the trust, but I don't think I'd want the job.  I don't
> trust myself quite frankly not to abuse the position.  I'm also glad to
> see that someone thinks that not suffering fools gladly is a bonus!  I
> do have a terrible Hannibal-Lechter tendency, though, to want to crush
> them like bugs by picking hard on sore spots.  (Besides, I doubt I have
> the time.)  But, thanks anyway, for the vote of confidence. 
 
But that's precisly what qualifies you for the position of moderator!  
You'll be extra cautious to avoid mis-use of your net-power.
 
<Leading the chant...> Janis! Janis! Janis!

' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
 
Bright Blessings to you and yours!  
 
Hawk
 
Circle of Ashtoreth, 
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:12:27 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.153140.7179@lmt.mn.org> ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
>Jeff Heimberger wonders what the reaction would be if there was a;
>
>> "... Hetero Rights Organization that espoused the same
>things for heteros as Gay Rights Organizations do for gays?"
>
>  Please excuse me for taking this single sentance out of the entire
>post, but there's so much in your various posts along this thread that
>I'd like to respond to that I'm afraid my point would be completely
>lost.  Instead, I'd like to focus on just this single thought and
>maybe work from there.  

Ciaran:

Thank you for being civil.

Please refer to my post in response to Ailsa's last post for some more
of my views along these lines (confusing, isn't it?).

To sum it up here... if we don't *all* work *together* for *everyone's*
rights, we're *all* doomed.

My brand of activism is different from yours, or Ailsa's, or even
Janis'.  The issues that I consider important are different from yours
and Ailsa's and Janis'.  That does not make your issues any less
important, nor does it make my issues any less important.  Just
different.

The undercurrent of this thread is that diversity is a Good Thing [tm],
and I haven't disputed that for a moment.  But I have stated that I
would like to see <IYFAO> work for equal rights for all, instead of for
just a single constituency.  I believe that will tie us all together,
eventually, and demonstrate how we can all derive benefits from a
society that respects everyone's individual rights.

Regards,

Jeff H...

P.S.  One of the best things that any of us can do is to get everyone
      out to vote.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Whats a male chauvinist pig?
From: wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 15:42:39 EDT
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:

> : Pointless flotsam. Please take this kind of noise elsewhere.
> 
> I laughed. Lighten up. |-)
> -- 

Really? You laughed? Maybe you can explain what was funny about it?

Posted by itself, with no attempt made to use it as an intro to a 
conversation, or to make a point, it was simply gratuitous, bordering on 
harassment.

Everybody suffers sex pain, gender pain. So, a joke like that releases 
some of the male pain, and makes the suffering males laugh. Big deal. 
Better to joke and laugh than to cry, right?

None of us can do much about thousands of years of cultural programming. 
None of us can do anything about millions of years of genetic 
programming. Does this mean we have carte blanche to just take the pain 
of fucked-up programming out on each other whenever we feel like it?

I've seen this man/woman argument many, many times. Mostly I'm not 
interested in this "stage" of it, where a woman releases her pain and a 
bunch of men harass her about it-- it's as old as sitcom reruns. 

The question I'm interested in is how do we deal with this sex pain among 
ourselves, in the so-called "pagan" community? How much stereotyping and 
cruelty is happening amoung us, at the festivals, in the groups; and I 
mean cruelty going both ways, towards both male and female? 

There's nothing I know how to do for the masses of 'normals'-- they're 
too immersed in the pain and exploitation, and they seem bascially happy 
with their fate. But I'd like to think that among pagans maybe we can 
work some of this deeply ingrained bitterness and programming out.

If being light means laughing without thinking at bitter unexamined 
jokes, than I'm glad to play the heavy.... ;-)

Later, Bill E.
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 24 Jul 92 21:26:41 GMT
	<ZLFFoB3w164w@ailanth.UUCP>

In article <ZLFFoB3w164w@ailanth.UUCP> 
ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
<i knjow how to act.  too many guys go into an unfamiliar 
<situation aggressively, radiating attitude.  that doesn't go over too 
<well in places where people don't want to have to DEAL with people being 
<aggressively white, aggressively straight, aggressively male, etc.  when 
<you go into a place where you KNOW that you are a member of the oppressor 
<class, no matter which oppressor class it might  be, you be friendly, you 
<be unassuming, you smile a lot.  you admit that there might be SOME place 
<in the US that is NOT YOURS.  once people firgure out that you aren't 
<just another strayt boy or whatever, you are fine.
<but i reapeat my contention that all black men do not go around beating 
<up and killing white men.  black men are in MUCH MORE DANGER from white 
<men than the reverse.  look at crime statistics some time.  ever 
<considered that black men walk together a lot for the same reason that 
<women walk together a lot?  so that people won't mess with them?

Yeah, Black on White crime is statistically a non issue. I wonder why?
Whenever it happens, it's guaranteed to be a national issue. And it's
a sure bet that minorites involved will get the maximum penalty if not
lynched, whether or not they actually did the crime. Someone did the
crime and someone is going to pay, if only as a symbol for others to keep in 
line. Fear is an interesting thing. In a confrontation, we assume that we
fear and the other side just hates. And what does the other side think? The
same damn thing. There's always a little bit of fear and hate. If you can
understand your opponents fears and hates and what your opponent stands to
lose or win, then you've got an edge. You can use "THE FORCE" for good or
bad, that's your call. You know, I never thought this kind of street 
knowledge had an application in the "real" world. But I guess DJ Quik is 
right. Everywhere is just like Compton now. We're making it all just like 
Compton, fools. Just keep an eye on the real estate.
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:14:33 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:

Ciaran, I think you are misunderstanding me...

>  Come on, folks, focus -- don't exclude.

>  B.A. Davis-Howe says (in extreme summary);

>>"...  If pagan is one religion, then I am not pagan--period."

>  Fine.  For you Paganism is not one religion.

>  For some people it is.

>  Why can't we both be right -- it's not like this is an argument about "revealed

Because either you have the right to call on me as a co-religionist, or you
don't.  If P/paganism is one monolithic entity, my right to choose my religion
is majorly limited.

>  I do have a real problem when you keep telling me that I am WRONG when
>I say that I am a Pagan, and when you keep telling me that my Paganism
>is not a religion.

I never said that your paganism is not a religion, I said that the word pagan
includes many different religions.  It includes your religion, and it includes
my religion, but we are not part of the same religion.

>  Again, please rest assured that I don't think you should believe the way I do.  I just
>want to be able to call myself what I want to call myself without being told that I'm
>"wrong" or that my religion is false and errant.

I have *never* said anything remotely close to claiming that your religion was
false or errant.  I am uncomfortable that you chose to put this here, since its
placement in a response to me makes it appear that I have.  Please be careful
about such statements, as they can easily be misinterpreted as accusations.

>  Because I call myself a Pagan, and say that I faith is Paganism, does certainly NOT
>mean that I'm saying that I agree with anyone else who calls themselves pagan or
>Pagan.  My definition of myself is not a definition of the catagory of religions which
>I belong to.

Maybe it was someone else who said this, but *someone* said that everyone who
is P/pagan is part of the same religion.  This is what I am riled about.  As
long as you don't try to subsume my religion into yours, do whatever you want.
(Personally, I would suggest finding a name which does not have a more general,
and longer established, meaning.  I also don't call the Roman Catholic 
Church "the Catholic Church"; if I want to shorten it, I call it "the Roman 
Church".  Of course, this is merely a suggestion, based on my biases.)

I hope this clears things up.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: FAQ list?
Date: 31 Jul 92 04:17:18 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin


Tim Radzykewycz writes:
>
>
>amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
>> However.  I've volunteered my services before; if the sentiment
>> changes I'd be willing to help create one [FAQ], but not alone.
>
>I think we *should* have one.  It doesn't have to give definitive
>answers to all the questions, but instead, it can give a range of
>answers or just say that we can't decide.
>
>Susan, would you like to work with me to put one together, and
>run it past everyone for concensus?  (-:  

Sounds okay to me; they can just stone us or something if they don't
like the result.  Seriously, sure.  So what Frequently Asked Questions
should be in it?

Anybody who thinks of some, post or e-mail them, I guess.

>Oh, great!  Edited by Kaczmarczik and Radzykewycz.  :-)

I love it -- my last name isn't the more difficult, for once.  

What makes it even better is that it's an Irishwoman named
Kaczmarczik.  Sets a good example for the eclecticism around here... :)

Looking forward to working wit'cha...

>Bear Blessings!
>	radzy@icsi.berkeley.edu

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
From: brewich!donal@lobster.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 16:01:44 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, HouTx, +1 713 272 7350

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> 
> > krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
> > : 
> > : I third the motion...  And think that there are enough wiccans present to
> > : 
> > : (Hell, many people in the Chicagoland area that I know hwo are on the Net
> > 
> > Heh, Heh! Shows how it is easy to come to what is probably an incorrect
> > conclusion based on insufficient information.
> > 
> > I personally suspect that the "Starhawk Wiccan" type people are far and
> > few between here.
> > 
> well, i love starhawk.  i find her ideas interesting and very much enjoy 
> her work, and would love to meet and do a ritual with her sometime.  but 
> i wouldn't read or post to *.wicca.  why?  i'm not a wiccan.  i AM, 
> however, a pagan, so i will stick right here.

Well, I am Wiccan, and believe that it should be either 
alt.pagan.wicca or, and I much prefer this one, soc.religion.wicca
Wicca is a religion, and as such deserves this placement. It is 
important for us to fight for recognition as a legitimate religion, 
not a "cult". To further that, I think we need s.r.w. I will not stop 
reading a.p, but s.r.w is necessary to promote recognition of Wicca 
and Wiccan issues within the mainstream religious sects.

p.s. told ya'll I would be vocal! :)

p.p.s. Ailsa! I have 6 tickets for tonights Indigo Girls show at the 
Woodlands Pavillion. jump on your broomstick and get over here, and 
one seat is yours! ;)  (Show is 7:00pm 07/25/92) See ya! (wink wink 
nudge nudge, happy happy joy joy!)

Blessed Be

--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) lobster.hou.tx.us!brewich!donal 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra