From: jd@rust.zso.dec.com (John D'Addamio)
Subject: Re: Arab + Andalusian <> Lipizzan
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:56:08 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.222518.15258@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman) writes:
>	My understanding from talking with a friend of mine who owns
>a Lipizzan mare is that two of the major Lipizzan bloodlines decend
>from Andalusian horses, Favory and Maestoso, and one major Lipizzan
>bloodline decends from the Arabian, Siglavy.  The name of the Spanish
>Riding School in Vienna was derived to emphasize the high percentage
>of Spanish (Andalusian) blood in their Lipizzan horses.  Finally,

While I'm not a Lipizzan owner I am an admirer and have read quite a bit
about their history and that of the Spanish Riding School. Your friend
is mistaken about the origin of the name of the Spanish Riding School.
The Spanish Riding School took its name from the fact that in its early
years they rode imported Spanish horses.

The Spanish Riding School is first mentioned by name in court documents
in 1572. I believe there is an earlier reference from something like 
1565 but that doesn't mention the name. 

The Lipizzaner stud was originally founded at Lipica in 1580 when
northern Yugoslavia was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The
foundation stock was local "Karst" mares and imported Spanish horses.

So, the Spanish Riding School was known by its name at least 8 years
before the Lipizzaner stud was founded. In fact, they continued to use
imported Spanish horses for a number of years AFTER the foundation 
of the Lipizzaner stud.

One of the breed histories specifically mentions that ONE of the 
imported Spanish stallions used at Lipica was an Andalusian. Since
there were other breeds in Spain at the time, one must assume the other 
stallions were NOT Andalusian but may have been of similar type.

Part of the problem is that in this modern era the word "Andalusian" is
used as an umbrella term meaning any breed of hose from the Iberian
Peninsula. I recently spoke to a woman who kept referring to her horse
as an "Andalusian" until she added that it was a Portugese "Andalusian."
When I asked if that didn't make the horse a Lusitano, she said, "Yes,
but 'Andalusian' is used as a generic term." Funny, I always thought
there were some significant differences between Andalusians and
Lusitanos.

>and this is a question, I have read that early in the 1800's all
>mares bred in Hungary were required to be crossed with Oriental (Arabian)
>stallions, there was a major breeding facility breeding Arabian, and
>Lipizzan, horses located at Babolna, Hungary at the time of this decree.
>My question is does anyone have any information about whether this
>breeding rule affected the Lipizzan mares as well as other local mares
>at the time?  And were the produce then listed as Lipizzan in the stud
>books?  The book that I have read indicates that this indeed took place, 
>however it is only one book.
>	It WOULD explain why my friend's Lipizzan mare looks
>EXACTLY like my Arabian mare, except for being a little bigger boned
>with a larger warmblood head the two of them could be SISTERS!  This mare 
>has no Siglavy horses listed in her pedigree, but has a lot of Favory.
>As a result of our horses looking so similar she and I are planning to
>put together a pas de deux.  Please keep in mind my mare is a VERY
>typey Arabian with classic sturdy lines and conformation.  Also my
>friend is considering breeding her mare to the sire of my mare's filly
>because she is so impressed with my mare and filly and thinks they
>would make a nice cross, and also because the Lipizzan bloodlines 
>available locally (i.e. within 500 miles) are too close to her mare's
>bloodlines.
>

I did a quick review of a couple books on Lipizzaner history.
Although I couldn't find a specific reference to the situation you
described, it could have happened that way. The histories do say that
horses were brought from the Hungarian studs to Lipica. Furthermore,
the horses were moved from Lipica to Hungary during 2 wars and the
Napoleonic occupation of Austria which ended in 1815. 

Unfortunately, many of the records of that period were lost during the
war and/or occupation. Since then, duplicate copies of records have been
kept at the stud and in Vienna.

The histories say that there were numerous infusions of Arab blood,
especially after the importations of Spanish horses stopped. In fact,
they do tell of an incident similar to the one which raised your
question. The stud at Lipica was breeding both Lipizzaner and purebred
Arabs at some point in the 19th century(I can't recall the actual date).
They decided to discontinue the Arab breeding because the Arab stock 
wasn't quite what they wanted. However, they realized that the Arab
stock had many good qualities and decided to breed all the Arab
stallions to their Lipizzaner mares. 

In other words, there were MANY Arab stallions besides Siglavy that were
used in creating the modern Lipizzaner. In fact, one of them was
supposed to have been Napoleon's own charger(an Arab called Vezier)
which he had presented to the stud some years before he occupied
Austria.

Perhaps the greatest reason your friend's Lipizzaner resembles the
traditional type Arab(as opposed to the modern show Arab) is that
Lipizzaner breeders have been selecting for that type. There was mention
in these histories that the trend in modern times has been to select for
saddle type horses rather than the dual purpose horses that were the
original stock. (The Lipizzaner were also used as royal coach horses
until autos replaced horses.) This is especially true of the Lipizzaner 
bred at the Austria's Bundesgestt Piber(Piber National Stud) for the 
Spanish Riding School. We visited the stud on a recent trip to Austria.
MANY of the mares looked like sturdy traditional type Arabs and some
even had an Arab type head. 

For anyone who wants to read about the history of Lipizzaners, probably
the best book that is in print would be "The Imperial Horse" by Isenbart
and somebody else whose name I've forgotten.

In 1980, there was a book published to celebrate the 400th anniversary
of the stud. The title is "Lipizzaner" and it was published by Control
Data. I don't think they actually divulged the author's name. If they
did, I've never noticed it! That's pretty good too if you can find it. 

There are, of course, numerous books about the Spanish Riding School.
ALois Podhajsky(of Disney movie fame) wrote several. His successor as
Director of the Spanish Riding School was Col Handler who also wrote a
book entitled "The Spanish Riding School". These books give brief
histories of the breed but focus on the history of the school and its
training methods.

John