HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: minimalism
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 23:35:34 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.201442.7878@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> pmy@vivaldi.acc.virginia.edu (Pete Yadlowsky) writes:
>Steve Apter writes
>
>>>Huh?  Why do desires need to be justified? Do I need to justify my
>>>desire for a chocolate chip cookie?  If I like one, I like one.
>
>What does this silliness:
>
>]	Music				Eating Cookies
>]	-----				--------------
>]  (1)	concerts			solitary
>]  (2)	grants	& awards		pay your own way
>]  (3)	grand theories			side panels on the box
>]  (4)	has metaphysical implications	ontologically neutral
>]  (5)	"anxiety of influence"		worry about getting fat
>]  (6)	best enjoyed in silence		goes with TV
>]  (7)	makes you famous		keep it to yourself
>]  (8)	requires justification		does not require justification
>
>have to do with this question:
>
>>>Why do desires need to be justified? 

It is often appropriate to ask "Why do you like X?"  This can mean 
(among other things):  Convince me to:

	(1) attend this performance of X
	(2) agree with the decision to award X some prize
	(3) think about the meaning of X
	(4) argue with Roger and Brian about X
	(5) understand the effect Y had on X
	(6) pay close attention to X
	(7) honor the composer of X
	(8) care about any of the above

There.  Is that better?
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Beethoven's violin concerto
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:40:23 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <1992Jul29.070755.11948@ichips.intel.com> mehul@pdx212 (Mehul Dave) writes:
>Hi,
>I just started reading this newsgroup and have found that many people
>seem to know a whole lot about classical music so this may be a good
>place to ask this question.  I recently heard a cassette recording of
>Beethoven's concerto for Violin and Orchestra in D major Op.61.  The
>violinist was Wolfgang Schneiderhan and the orchestra was Berlin
>Philharmonic conducted by Eugene Jochum.  I have a few questions about
>this concerto
>
>1. Is this the only violin concerto Beethoven wrote?  I ask this
>   because it did not say Violin concerto number 1 or 2 etc.

Yes.  

>
>3. Can you recommend any good CD recordings of this concerto?  I like
>   the one I have on cassette but I want to see if I can find a better
>   one.  I realize that different people have different idea of a
>   "good" recording but I'd like to get your opinion on your favorite
>   and what you like about it.

Sorry 'bout this answer, but my favorite is the recording you have.
(The CD also has LvB's two romances performed by Oistrach.  Does the
cassette?)  

John D.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Subject: Re: Question
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Reply-To: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 04:35:55 GMT

spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie) writes:
>Dammit. I had a very important and interesting question that I was going to
>pose here, but now I'm racking my brains and I can't remember what it was.
>I think it was something about music. Can anyone help?

Come on, I'll give you a hint:

	O Fortuna, velut luna...
-- 
David Brooks					dbrooks@osf.org
Open Software Foundation			uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Six more months!  Six more months!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: minimalism
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:23:39 GMT

I'm glad to hear that "minimalism" is not your "favorite" genre, but how can you
justify having any desire to listen to it?  Or are you another of these "Lustigians"
who don't think that there is any way to evaluate musical quality aside from 
knee-jerk emotionalism which is beyond explanation?

--Brian

P.S. Yes, I am back!

Xref: sparky rec.music.classical:10247 rec.music.makers:8459
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Subject: Re: Liverpool Oratorio - McCartney & Davis
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
In-reply-to: ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk's message of 22 Jul 92 16:42:41 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co., Sunnyvale, Ca.
	<1992Jul18.192101.18770@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>
	<SLAGLE.92Jul20141420@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com>
	<1992Jul21.111423.5246@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>
	<SLAGLE.92Jul22001604@sgi417.msd.lmsc.l
	<1992Jul22.164241.24617@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 03:49:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.164241.24617@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>, ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk (Martin S T Watts) writes:

> Well, Davis does have a reputation of sorts and I'm sure he wouldn't
> have wanted to tarnish it unnecessarily, but your reasoning is pretty
> sound. But do we really have to assume the worst? - you've essentially
> explained why a wide range of different circumstances leaves us unable
> to tell the difference in the end. 

My purpose was only to counter the statement that they, whomever,
would not have carried the production through if it had no artistic
merit.  I would say that that is not necessarily so, and that no
conclusion whatever concerning its merit can be drawn from the fact 
of its production.  

> If you formed this impression before
> you heard the piece then you might well have disliked it, regardless of 
> the music's quality.

I have not yet formed any opinion of the piece, as I have not
yet heard it.  Unless it happens to be completely horrible,
I would need several listenings over a period of time to
form one.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: alan@highlite.uucp (Alan McConnell)
Subject: Re: Clavieruebung
Organization: Gotham Communications Research
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 13:56:54 GMT


Try Clavieruebung Vol 1 - a series of short but _wonderful_ choral-
preludes.  Some of them touch heaven also.
Alan McConnell
-- 
Alan McConnell             "What wondrous life is this I lead!
Pixel Analysis              Ripe apples drop about my head . ."
From: erwin@helsinki.ks.uiuc.edu (Edgar Erwin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: minimalism
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:13:02 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Roger Lustig writes 
> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
> >I'm glad to hear that "minimalism" is not your "favorite"  genre, 
> 
> Um, were you talking to someone?  I don't see any attribution line...
> 
> >but how can you justify having any desire to listen to it?  
> 

I believe he was talking to me, although clearly intending to provoke a group  
discussion.  I'm genuinely touched that the Yoderian camp is so concerned with  
my musical education. I never need fear hearing `too many notes' again. 

Although I can think of many reasons why I enjoy listening to Glass, Reich,  
Riley, etc, I don't feel the need to justify my tastes to you or anyone else.   
Although I've not yet had the pleasure of reading many of your posts, I already  
have the impression that I would have about as much chance of convincing you of  
the merits of minimalism as I would of convincing Velikovsky that our moon was  
not burped out of Jupiter's great red spot.

> > Or are you another of these "Lustigians"
> > who don't think that there is any way to evaluate musical quality aside
> > from knee-jerk emotionalism which is beyond explanation?

No.  I respond best to music which is not overly emotional.  Thus I prefer  
Baroque, Classical and several more recent styles, but not in general Romantic.   
I enjoy relating the struture of, say, a Mozart sonata to one by Beethoven or  
Bartok.  But one cannot deny that there is something to music that defies  
structural analysis.  The power of a Xenakis piece, for example, is emotional,  
and doesn't require knowledge of the underlying mathematics.  Although most  
music in the Romantic style bores me unless there is something interesting  
going on in the `formal' structure besides the programme, I would never  
consider a fan of Romantic music to have lower taste than mine.  Writing music  
which can evoke specific complex emotions is just as difficult and worthwhile  
as coming up with some new structural principles.

> > Is Glass overrated?  That's like asking is smallpox is overrated. ;-)

This is exactly what I meant when I said Glass is both overrated and  
underrated.  Many consider him a fraud --- many even without a smiley at the  
end.  He's certainly no more of a fraud than Cage or Schoenberg, whom many  
people still, unfortunately, see that way.

I'll leave any further arguments over the merits of minimalism to Roger and any  
others who enjoy such discussions.  I'll be away for a while after Saturday, so  
luckily I won't have to join in. Since I'll be in California next week, perhaps  
Brian can take me by the hand to his favorite store and help me fill my bag  
with approved classics. I can't wait!


Ed erwin@lisboa.ks.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Anti-censorship T-shirts
In-reply-to: Rudy.Zalesak@bbs.oit.unc.edu's message of Sat, 25 Jul 1992 14:53:24 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<CB.92Jul22114403@tamarack13.timbuk> <2A6E8AF3.10070@noiro.acs.uci.edu>
	<1992Jul25.145324.5908@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:11:25 CDT

Rudy Zalesak writes:

   This discussion probably doesn't belong on rec.music.classical, but
   who knows, maybe *Lulu* or *The Miraculous Mandarin* will get 
   stickered soon.

   I don't agree with stickering albums, and if I were a teenager again
   I would be really angry about it- I had nuns take books away from
   me in grade school so I'm very touchy about censorship.

   Chris is absolutely right about Guns'n'Roses though- what slime. I think
   direct action (like adbusting- howabout counter posters that point out
   that Axl seems to think rape is OK?) or protests would work better
   and avoid censorship. Don't let G'n'R keep using rape as a subtext-
   make them face it! 
  ...

I was glad to see a response that isn't a kneejerk quotation of the "no
law" part of the First Amendment (or equivalent sentiment).  Your point
about stickering Lulu is, indeed, the problem with this whole subject:
for some reason, a school board in Idaho or South Carolina always seems
to be censoring Catcher in the Rye.  This makes all restriction seem
ludicrous.  It may be that boycotts and protests are the best way to
deal with the rape-the-bitch school of pop music, although free-speech
advocates have a perverse way of denying freedom of speech to those who
would protest.  By the way, where does the Constitution prohibit "vague"
laws?  I haven't seen a completely clear law yet, on any subject.

Chris Brewster
From: lksmith@truth.uucp (Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Sylvia McNair (was Re: IDOMENEO and CLEMENZA DI TITO...)
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:28:38 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corp., Bedford, Ma.

>In article <CB.92Jul16115342@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>
>>....McNair.  I've had a crush on her since I
>>saw her sing in the Mozart Requiem.  Perhaps I'm easily swayed, but I
>>thought it was the best singing I'd ever heard.  I haven't seen much
>>other comment about her, nor many recordings.  Has anyone else taken
>>note of her?
>

She's sung several times in the last couple years with the Boston
Symphony, including the Mozart C minor and Haydn's "Die Jahreszeiten."
We in the chorus were completely overwhelmed -- everyone thought
she was fantastic, incredible, outstanding, unbelievable...pretty
good, in fact. :-)  I've never heard anyone else handle that
repertoire with such grace, agility, clarity, and seemingly effortless
perfection.  Her diction was impeccable, in that she not only 
pronounced everything properly but she conveyed the meaning of
the words in her delivery.  I say "that repertoire" because I do
find it difficult to imagine her doing Verdi or Wagner, but
one never knows what could eventually happen... :-)  Lighter voices
have managed the heavier parts well enough occasionally, and she
obviously has the intelligence to tackle them properly.

Another enjoyable aspect of her "Seasons" perfomance:  her excellent
diva wardrobe. :-)  We did four performances of the piece, and she
appeared in a different gown each night.  Not only were all the
dresses gorgeous and _extremely_ well-fitting :-), but by the third
night it became obvious that she had one for each season -- a pink
one for spring, a green one for summer, a fiery rust-orange one
for autumn, and an ice-blue one for winter.  All that and the
voice too!

Of course, there are always the dissenters in these areas.
The local newspaper's music reviewer showed his usual level of
musical taste when he compared her singing to the sounds produced
by a touch-tone telephone.  Needless to say, he's the only one
holding that opinion.  I think she might be scheduled to appear
with the BSO again this next year -- I certainly hope so.

Linda
-----
lksmith@truth.mitre.org
 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Good version of 'The planets' by Holst?
In-reply-to: brad@buck.viewlogic.com's message of 24 Jul 92 20:50:37 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Jul24.205037.4765@viewlogic.com>
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:50:30 CDT

Bradford Kellogg writes:

   ... I would recommend a performance conducted by Stokowski, if you
   can find one.  I have one that is perhaps 15 years old (sorry, I
   don't recall the orchestra), and it is an example of where Stokowski
   was at his best. ...

Stokowski had a version, I'd guess from the early 60s, that was on
Seraphim for a long time.  This was the first version I heard that
brought out a particular note at the end of "Saturn".  After the
orchestral line has climbed and climbed to ever more ethereal realms,
the first violins' final, extended note is the major-seventh of the
final tonic.  Stokowski makes this note function as the end of a kind of
melody, which I hear as the perfect musical way to float off into space.
I've heard many versions leave this note in the background as part of an
unfocused final chord, though some conductors do it Stoky's way.  I
don't know if he was the first to do it.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
From: jwalpe@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (Court Walpe)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Is it Ludwig van, Van, von or Von Beethoven?
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:52:05 GMT
Reply-To: jwalpe@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (Court Walpe)
Organization: Univ. of Notre Dame

I call on the wisdom of the rec.music.classical group to answer this deep burning question for me:  Is it Ludwig van, Van, von, or Von Beethoven?  I've asked numerous people and gotten all four of the above responses.  Please help set my mind at ease!  Post is OK, but I'd prefer e-mail.  Thanks a lot!

                                Court (jwalpe@dumpster.helios.nd.edu)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Court Walpe             | "Oh, Homer, why don't you pet the cat?"
Univ. of Notre Dame     | "Pet the cat?  What's the point?"
Notre Dame, IN 46556    |               -Marge and Homer Simpson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: vnguyen@husc8.harvard.edu (Vinh Nguyen)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Ein Deutsches Requiem (was Re: Christa Ludwig)
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:04:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Jul23.210428.14112
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

From vn Thu Jul 23 21:00:19 1992
Subject: Re: Ein Deutsches Requiem (was Re: Christa Ludwig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

Hmm, it seems that the current discussion is focused almost
exclusively on Gardiner and Klemperer, with an occasional
snipe at Karajan.  

I've only heard the Solti and Karajan (EMI & DG analogue)
versions of the work.  Amy specific comments?  (I confess
to being a less than enthusiastic fan of the work -- perhaps
out of ignorance).

Vinh Nguyen
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Subject: Re: Violinist in Joan Crawford movie?
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 02:35:24 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.100258.3137@desire.wright.edu> thayes@desire.wright.edu writes:
>
>I saw a movie last week about a violinist.  The movie was made probably in
>[stuff deleted]
>But anyway, does anyone know the title of the film?  And furthermore, does 
>anyone know who the violinist was on the movie's (primitive) sound track?

The movie is called Humoresque, and it's out on video.  The violinist 
was Isaac Stern.


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@astro.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: Recommendation for Requiem music is needed.
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:52:36 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.190221.24811@cs.cmu.edu> acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby) writes:
>In article <music.711664100@batman> music@moravian.edu (Steve Heller) writes:
>>In <1992Jul20.190427.199691@cs.cmu.edu> acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby) writes:
>>
>>>Wait.  I have a Tallis Scholars disc with a piece by Victoria simply called
>>>"Requiem".  It is about 45 minutes long, I think.  It is absolutely
>>>beautiful, but I wonder which one it is -- the first or the second.
>>
>>Doesn't it list the date of publication? I figured the Tallis Scholars
>
>Don't bother checking anything; I'm sure the Tallis Scholars disc does have
>all relevant information.  It's just that I didn't have it here in the
>office.  In fact, I've loaned it out.  At any rate, I suspect that it is
>indeed the 2nd, but not the recent revised version.  Too bad; I would have
>liked to have heard more of the same.  I bought another Victoria disc
>(forgot exactly what), but the music just wasn't nearly as good, IMHO.

It's the later one, 1605, for 6 voices.

-Margaret
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Subject: Re: Beethoven's violin concerto
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:20:35 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.115206.11038@philabs.philips.com> kpl@philabs.philips.com (K P Lee) writes:
>
>In article <1992Jul29.215158.271971@cs.cmu.edu>, acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby) writes:
>|> I like the aforementioned Schneiderhan recording.  It's on CD along with
>|> the two Romances.  I can't for the life of me remember who does the
>|> Romances, but it's somebody *really* famous.  It's a budget DG disc -- an
>
>
>It's DG 429 179-2.
>The pianist is Daniel Barenboim with the English Chamber Orchestra.
>
>The Romances are played by Pinchas Zuckerman, with the London
>Philharmonica Orchestra conducted by D. Barenboim.
>-- 

Obviously, there's some confusion here.  The concerto is for violin.
The violinist is Schneiderhan. 

On this recording (a DG budget recording at that) are the two
romances that Beethoven composed.  The violinist on these pieces
in David Oistrach.  

All in all -- a real bargain.

Oistrach also has a wonderful recording of Beethoven's violin
concerto.  I think it's on EMI/Angel.  I heard on the radio,
but could not find it in any of the local stores.


John D.




Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.early
From: mccomt@aix.rpi.edu (Todd M. McComb)
Subject: Scelsi (was: minimalism)
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:09:11 GMT

In article <156ooqINNp9k@agate.berkeley.edu> Vance Maverick writes:
>You'd think someone would have jumped on Scelsi for repetition -- but the
>combination of the power of the music and its relative obscurity yields a
>tone of extreme respect in almost all the writing I've seen.  Me, I'm glad
>he kept on digging new stuff out of the same bag.

I suppose that as with any composer, Scelsi's material is all pulled from
the same bag in some sense.  However, in my opinion, his compositions are
quite varied -- much more so than many other composers of this century.
It all depends on one's perspective, I suppose.

Regarding the final volume of Accord's series of Scelsi's orchestral music,
does anyone out there have a copy?  I have been unable to find it to this
point, and the relevant information would be appreciated.  There has also
been a recent release of Scelsi's Trilogia for solo cello on the Etcetera
label; I am eagerly awaiting my copy.

If I once get a chance to listen to Hymnos and Hurqualia, I'm planning a
hopefully decent essay on Scelsi centering on the orchestral music.

T. M. McComb
From: nsh3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Nadine S Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Recommendation for Requiem music is needed.
Date: 21 Jul 92 22:37:25 GMT
Reply-To: nsh3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Nadine S Harris)
Organization: Columbia University


In article <1992Jul21.190954.33321@cs.cmu.edu> acid+@cs.cmu.edu
(Christopher Colby) writes:
	[about the Berlioz Requiem]

>Yes, talk about an earth-shattering Dies Irae!  Also, there is a quartet
>section that is quite lovely.  I haven't listened to it in a while.  The
>only recording I've heard in entirety (and own) is the Shaw on Telarc.  It
>seems okay, but nothing special.  Maybe the Davis is good.  (?)

Best one for me is the fairly elderly Munch because it has the
unearthly tenor solo of the much-underheard French Canadian tenor
Leopold Simoneau.  The tenor solo is by far the single most important
element in this piece for me.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rtut@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Raymond Tuttle)
Subject: Re: Records to die of
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 21:58:33 GMT

In article <CB.92Jul27120322@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Steve Apter writes:
>
>   So what are the worst records ever made ... ("Records to die of"?)
>
>I described this one another time.  It's a Vox recording of Handel's
>Water Music that was an early (mid 50s) attempt at authentic performance
>practice.  A number of reputable musicians were involved, but they
>apparently thought they could adapt to old instruments on the spot.  The
>result is one of my family's favorite comedy albums.  Vox was apparently
>nervous about this one, because the jacket contains a couple of
>disclaimers.
>
>Chris Brewster

That would be the Telemann Society, I believe.

To get to the original question, it depends what you mean by bad?
Technically incompetent? Mismatching of artist and repertoire?
Shameless promotion of the performer completely apartment from the
music?

OK, OK, perhaps I am being overly analytical. One of the worst
I can think of is Caruso's first recording of "E lucevan le stelle."
He starts at the wrong time and on the wrong note. Can you imagine
that being approved today?

Of course the worst recordings ever made are those made by Herbert von
Karajan in the last 20 years of his career. (Note: Joke!  Ha Ha! Please
don't shoot the keyboard player!)

--
****************************************   Raymond S. Tuttle
"Dunkel ist das Leben, ist der Tod,"       University of Rochester
but it's nothing to get depressed about!   (still with his two little 
****************************************   white mice).
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical