Newsgroups: soc.college
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 02:14:27 -0400 
From: Erik Warren Selberg <es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: fraternities
	<1992Apr15.164526.9097@midway.uchicago.edu>
Distribution: na

thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
> If you would prefer, we can use the analogy, "being a male under the
> age of 21 makes you Z more times likely to have an auto accident."
> If you'd like to explain to an insurance company why that isn't
> "necessarily true," ceteris paribus, I'll be happy to watch them laugh
> you out of the office.

My insurance rates are based upon drivers under 21 in Northern Utah,
not the nation as a whole.  Thus, if you'd like to conduct a study at
CMU, feel free, and I'll accept that statistic.  However, I won't
accept some statistic being applied to me from some random college.

> >No, the logic here was I know of one statistic that can be misused,
> >therefore the possibility exists that another statistic can be
> >misused.
> 
> But this adds nothing new to the discussion.  Any form of communication
> can be misused, including attacks on statistics as well as statistics.

Exactly!  So stop giving me statistics on how much more likely I am to
commit rape!

> >_reported_ rapes.  There was a nice post earlier on about that.
> 
> Indeed, one which Ethan Miller and I very nicely refuted.  You're talking
> about a huge gap here, one which is either being caused by fraternities
> being much more likely to rape or fraternity rapes being much more likely
> to be reported.  Given the sociological and psychological studies on the
> issue, there's a lot of support for the former and I have yet to see any
> support for the latter (and in fact, I've seen evidence that the
> reverse is true, that fraternity rapes are *less* likely to be reported.)

Again, refering to another post, it means:
(a) being in a fraternity -> being a rapist
(b) being a rapist -> being in a fraternity
(c) something -> being in a fraternity and being a rapist
(d) this statistic happens to be weird.

But as you stated above, all statistics can be misused, so we can't
even be sure if the model we're using is correct.

> In addition, we've seen both a law student and
> a lawyer on this thread explain why it is well-nigh close to impossible
> of getting a conviction for a fraternity rape, which is a huge chunk of
> the reason why they're a problem -- if fraternities were held accountable
> for the rapes they committed, it wouldn't be half of the problem it is.

Fraternities are accountable.  If a law student and a lawyer can't get
a conviction, then either they aren't doing something right, or
society itself is letting fraternities get away with it (which would
lead into a nice philosophical discussion on the right of a fraternity
to get away with something).

> I think that there is a greater difference between the US and Germany
> than between UI-UC and CMU.  Certainly the UIUC-CMU difference is smaller
> than the UPenn-UIUC difference, and studies at Penn have had similar
> conclusions.  (And I'd bet you'd find that the stats on
> young male drivers are fairly accurate when applied to Germany.)

Maybe.  I've never been to UI-UC, but I will say that the difference
between attitudes from people attending CMU, Pitt, and Carlow tend
to be VERY different, and these colleges are within walking distance.


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Newsgroups: soc.college