From: jdd1@cec2.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
Subject: Re: Greek Philosophy is a Joke (was Re: On Macedonia ....)
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:14:41 GMT

Let me start by saying that I don't have the time to answer in detali this
quite long posting.  First I would ask you not to dismiss my references,
because by the same logic I will dismiss yours.

>You are wrong again my friend. First of all the Greeks were taught by the
>Egyptians the science of agriculture. When the Egyptians first contacted the

Agriculture?  An interesting statement,  but farming was already known
for a few millenia in the region.  As for "science" of agriculture, I
am not sure you can call it so.

>Greeks, they were known as the Pyrhennians, a tribal people living on the
>coasts of the Aegean Sea, from Thessaly around through Macedonia and Thrace

Who are the Pyrhennians?  You may mean Pelasgians!  These were pre-Greek
tribes (Greece was populated before the Greeks came down.  So long for the
Arian theory of pure races!)

>and down the other side into Ionia. It was in Ionia that the Egyptians
>first set up a colony to help to educate these people of the Aegean. Also,

Very generous of them!  Which is this colony you are refering to?
When was it established?  Are you refering to the era before the Greeks
came down?

>I really don't think the steel plow was around back then being that steel is
>a relatively recent accomplishment. In addition, according to the historians

Sorry!  Slip of tongue!  I meant Iron (Greeks brought Iron from the north
it did not exist in the region before that)

>Herodotus and Pliny, Pythagoras, a native of Samos, frequently travelled to
>Egypt for the purpose of education. To do this, he needed consent of the
>Egyptian Priests to be accepted into the schools of Egypt. He was not initially
>accepted, but after he carried a letter from Polycrates, King of Samos, to 
>King Amasis, Pharoah of Egypt, the Pharoah gave him letters of introduction
>to the Priests of Memphis and Thebes which in turn permitted him to be
>initiated into the schools. The Egyptians had already formalized the Theorems

He visited Egypt, but I have not heard of any references to schools,
especially for non-priests existing in ancient Egypt.

>and Proofs of their Mathematics, especially Geometry. So how could Pythagorus
>give mathematical proof to something he had no prior knowledge of let alone
>while he was "learning". This information can be found in "The Histories" by

The Egyptians did not use proofs.  Their knowledge was empirical in nature.
If you have an ancient Egyotian source showing otherwise, I be would very
interested to see it.  As for the Pythagorean theorem, that was a Babylonian
invention.  The Egyptians were not aware of it yet (at least no such evidence
has been found).  As for the argument that how could he prove something
while he was learning is silly argument.  Don't all researchers do that?

>Herodotus. Let me also add that history supports the fact that from the time
>of the first of the pre-Socratic "philosophers" Thales, to the plagarist
>Aristotle, (circa 640  - 322 B.C.) the Greeks were victims of internal
>disunion, on the one hand, while on the other, they lived in constant fear of
>invasions form the Persians who were a common enemy to the city states.
>>
>>If you want more information I would refer you to a direct ancient
>>Egyptian source (I would have to back you though for that), a collection
>>of papyrs that have about 100 (if my memory serves me) solved problems.
>>There you can see how primitive egyptian logic is, especially in the
>>area of mathematics.  Dover publications has a book on the subject
>>called something like history of elementary mathematics which has
>>an excelent overview of Egyptian and Babylonian mathematics, as well as
>>Greek.  There also is a book by the German physisist and Nobel
>>laureate Schroedinger (sp?) on the subject of ancient Greek natural
>>philosophy.  If you are interested send a personal e-mail and I will
>>look for the complete references.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>James Dimarogonas 
>
>First of all, I can name books that have printed lies about the African
>contributions to Western civilization. I mean the typical world history
>class centers around the history of Europe and its' beginnings with Greece
>and Rome. They touch on Egypt and Mesopotamia but that's all. And speaking
>of formalized logic, how are you able to deduce the fact that Pythagoras
>derived the "proof" of a system when there was no prior existence of these
>concepts to him in Greece or Samos. Where else did he receive this "formal"
>training in principles of Mathematics and Physics. I suggest you research

There was natural philosophy and mathematics before Pythagoras (see Thalles
of militos)

>his life and background a little more before you make these claims.
>One more thing I would like to ask. If the Greek society was such a wholesome
>environment for Philosophy, then why is it that their "sons" of thought and
>ideology, namely the famous Greek "Philosophers" were the victims of
>relentless persecution for the teaching of "alien and foreign beliefs".
>For example; Anaxagoras was imprisoned and exiled; Socrates was executed;
>Plato was sold into slavery and Aristotle was indicted and exiled. Even
>Pythagoras fled his native Samos and was later expelled from Croton in Italy.

That is why philosophy began in Ionia, far away from the religious centers in
the mainland.  This argument is like saying that Galileo and Copernicus
were frauds because they were prosecuted

>Also, isn't it rather coincidental that Aristotle did not begin his writings
>until after Alexander the Great ransacked the libraries of and Temples of
>Alexandria (332 B.C.) and the fact that he died in 322 B.C. makes it hard to
>believe that he authored the close 800 or so books papers etc.. that is
>attributed to him.

There is no evidence of an organised library in Egypt.  You are confusing
different eras here.  Alexanders historians describe the building of 
Alexandria by Alexander, and mention that it was completely void of
any settlement.  There was nobody in Alexandria before Alexander, so
definitely there were no books there.  As for Aristotle,  I think that
some of his books were written before (he was in athens when the Alexander
reached Egypt!) and was not in good terms with Alexander anymore because
of Alexanders crimes and behaviour.
>
All of the above you write is wishfull thinking, not evidence.  Again
I would have to ask you to provide me with references to archeological
finding about the existence of such advanced philosophy in Egypt.
Further more I would suggest you refrain from "creating" evidence such
as the library in Alexandria when Alexander got there.  The Library there
was built a century later by the Ptolemies.  Don't quote non-existent
cities as "evidence"

Cheers

James Dimarogonas

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12410 alt.news.macedonia:94