HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Jim Beutel)
Subject: New Years Boogie at Marana
Reply-To: beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola SPS ASIC, Chandler, AZ
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 16:04:05 GMT


Exellent way to bring in the new year...! 
Owed many cases of beer on this one. First time in the King Air.
First time at that altitude, (14,500) First time at a boogie,
First time in an eight way (Well almost, didnt quite track down very well)
First time on a titty flight... (Thanks Ladies..!, Love this sport)

New PD 190 worked flawlessly. Having the extra air time sure does help to 
gain confidence and experience. Much better on my flips, rolls, and turns.
Started working on tracking and docking. Was a real kick to watch relative 
work in action from above.

Did not get to Eloy over the Holidays, sorry to hear about the loss. Doesnt 
sit well with us new guys hearing these things. Several reserve ride were made
(not by myself) but no major incidents. My next purchase will be a dyter. Then
probably a sentinel aad. I want ALL the safety features.

Will have a tough time getting back into a cessna for that LONG ride up after
the 7 minute trip in the King Air. Many thanks to Mike Mullins.

Happy New Year. 



---
-------------------------------------------------------
Jim Beutel	

Motorola SPS ASIC            beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com
1300 N. Alma School Rd       Computer Operations 
M/S CH290  AZ50              office:  (602) 821-4967
Chandler, Arizona 85224	     telefax: (602) 821-4963
-------------------------------------------------------

The Surgeon General has determined that Skydiving is Extremely addicting. 



Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: mark@vti.com (Mark Smith)
Subject: Re: Pull time safety
Reply-To: mark@vti.com
Organization: Virtual Technologies, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:05:50 GMT

Hector Mandel (mandel@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Randy Scott (randy.scott@filebank.cts.com) wrote:
: : I was talking to a guy at the DZ last week about who's at fault in an
: : canopy/jumper collision at pull time.  His position was, "the low man
: : has the right of way, so it's the high guy's fault".  I say, "O.K.,
: : but why did the low guy pull into the high guy's face?"
: 
: I'd say that the low person has the right of way since they have less 
: visibility and less altitude in which to maneuver than the high person.
: The question of fault may not involve the right-of-way in some
: circumstances.

I'd like to add, that although fundamentally, the low person has the
right of way, he/she also has responsibilities.  For instance, pulling
at 5k after your dive plan called for a 2k opening is bad whether you
are low-man or not.

: : Any comments?  How can we define the responsibilities more clearly and
: : improve safety during openings?

Since it's hard to communicate complicated messages during freefall,
it's good to stick to your original plan.
--
      /_\   Virtual                  Mark Smith          USPA D-13761
    /-~_  \    Technologies          mark@vti.com
  /      ~-_\     Incorporated       703-430-9247,   FAX 703-450-4560
/_____________\      46030 Manekin Plaza, Suite 160, Dulles, VA 20166

  All in the golden afternoon        While little hands make vain pretence
     Full leisurely we glide;           Our wanderings to guide.

  For both our oars, with little skill,
     By little arms are plied,                       --Lewis Caroll
From: rand@skydiver.Eng.Sun.COM (Avant-Garde-A-Clue)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Taking chances
Date: 5 Jan 1993 22:14:50 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: rand@skydiver.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: skydiver

> Yeah, 600 foot openings were good for Bill Crago, too...
> 
> until one day when he had a pilot chute hesitation, and went in.
> (Michigan, 1972).
> 
> The equation describing risk in jumping contains multiple variables,
> not just one.  Anyone who thinks they have total control over every
> thing that happens in a jump just by "having their head together",
> is only fooling themselves.  Equipment can, and will, occasionally do
> wierd things, and intentionally eliminating time to deal with it isn't
> what I classify as "very intelligent".
> 
> Robert Yoder  D-6663
> 


Reminds me of a comment I heard a while ago to someone doing lowpulls:

"For every 500 ft. lower you pull, that's 3 seconds you will never see
 again for the rest of your life."

Rand Lindsly
DZW - 257

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee)
Subject: Re: hang gliding helmets for skydiving
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 20:40:29 GMT

Those helmuts they were using at Eloy made them look a bit like Darth Vader,
very cool!
Bobby
From: moret@disuns2.epfl.ch (Pierre Moret)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: hang gliding helmets for skydiving
Date: 10 Jan 93 18:08:26 GMT
Reply-To: moret@disuns2.epfl.ch (Pierre Moret)
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne

In article <19444@mindlink.bc.ca> Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee) writes:
>Those helmuts they were using at Eloy made them look a bit like Darth Vader,
>very cool!

Maybe... But I hope we are a little more friendly...

--Pierre
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: mstack@mcs213b.cs.umr.edu (Martin Stack)
Subject: Re: St Louis Arch Base Jump
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:36:14 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla

In article <1993Jan7.195911.24605@newsgate.sps.mot.com> beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com writes:
>I heard a rumor about a base jump made from the Arch in 
>St. Louis..! The jumper was supposedly arrested. Any truth
>to this one?
>
>Thanks
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>Jim Beutel	
>
>Motorola SPS ASIC            beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com
>1300 N. Alma School Rd       Computer Operations 
>M/S CH290  AZ50              office:  (602) 821-4967
>Chandler, Arizona 85224	     telefax: (602) 821-4963
>-------------------------------------------------------
>The Surgeon General has determined that Skydiving is Extremely addicting. 
>
>
>
 

    Yea this is true. John Vincent jumped of the Arch.  He was arrested and his
two cameramen where too.  John is going to be sentenced in Feb or March.  One
cameraman was offered immunity to testify against the other cameraman.  
    I wanted to do it.....!!
    He climbed up the outside of it with sucktion cups.  I also noted that on the video he sold to the news stations he packed slider up.  The arch is around
650 ft high.          

      Later



*********************************************************************
Martin Stack (mstack@cs.umr.edu) (s096051@umrvma.urm.edu)


Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: jld@lookout.it.uswc.uswest.com (Jeffrey DeMent)
Subject: Whereabouts of Dropzone Magazine
Organization: U S WEST Information Technologies
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:40:55 GMT

-- 
Jeff
_____________________________________________________________________

 Jeffrey L. DeMent                                  _._._._._._._
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: horn@freefall.jsc.nasa.gov (Mark Horn)
Subject: Re: fatality at Eloy
Organization: NASA Johnson Space Center
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 00:05:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.215447.24579@ncar.ucar.edu> jan@stout.atd.ucar.edu (Jan Stewart) writes:
>If you are a freestylist, please wear a
>dytter (or two) and learn something from this incident.  I'd hate to see this
>one repeated.

I don't understand this.  I would not consider myself a freestylist in the
sense that Tamara Koyn or Dale Stuart are freestylists.  But I would consider
myself a freestylist compared to someone who's only done RW jumps.  

I've done freestyle, not a lot, but enough (~100 jumps).  What is it about
freestyle that has (at least) a couple of people concerned about loss of
altitude awareness?  For myself, I'm MORE altitude aware during FS than RW.

Hey, dbriggs, you're a freestylist, right?  What do you think about this?  Any
other freestylists care to comment?  Wasn't Mary Haskett listening in on us
for a while?

Speaking of which, Mary, is there any scoop on getting the Skyblazin '92 video
after ESPN shows their stuff?
--
  _/_/_/  _/_/_/  _/     _/_/_/  _/  _/ _/ _/_/_/ #include <std/disclaimer.h>
   _/    _/ _/  _/ _/   _/ _/   _/ _/  _/ _/      sparkie
    _/  _/_/   _/_/_/  _/_/    _/_/   _/ _/_/     horn@mickey.jsc.nasa.gov
_/_/_/ _/     _/   _/ _/  _/  _/  _/ _/ _/_/_/    D-14578 - Blue Skies!
From: hstoecklin@munich.enet.dec.com (Helmut Stoecklin)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Rumour that Piras bounced apparently true / CYPRES
Date: 12 Jan 93 17:03:05 GMT
Reply-To: hstoecklin@munich.enet.dec.com (Helmut Stoecklin)
Organization: Digital Equipment, Munich


In article <1993Jan12.152741.5840@bcrka451.bnr.ca>, rcook@bnr.ca (Roger Cook) writes:
|> Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
|> Path: rdg.dec.com!uvo.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!enterpoop.mit.edu!eff!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!bnrgate!bcrka451!rcook
|> From: rcook@bnr.ca (Roger Cook)
|> Subject: Re: Rumour that Piras bounced apparently true / CYPRES
|> Message-ID: <1993Jan12.152741.5840@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
|> Originator: rcook@bcrks110
|> Sender: 5E00 Corkstown News Server
|>  
|> 
|> 
|> While most people agree that Tom Piras would still be alive if he had
|> activated his CYPRES, no one has commented on the fact that he may still
|> be alive if he was wearing a helmet. The blow he received to his head was
|> only enough to knock him out temporarily. Perhaps he would have remained
|> conscious if he was wearing a Protec.
|> 
|> Speculation, of course. Any comments???
|

	well, if you asked me, I'd rather say that anybody who didn't want
	to get involved in such a bad thing wouldn't do that first of 
	all. THIS IS NEVER MEANT TO BE CYNICAL!!! ( Anybody who's ever
	been to DeLand can tell how wonderful folks are there). 
	From my point of view (I know 99.9% hold on to some kind of
	materialism) everybody is absolutely responsible for every
	event in his life. And unfortunately no one can tell why Tom
	decided to leave this plane right at this time in such a way
	(Beware: I'm not talking about suicide, because death for
	most people is not a conscious decision).

							helmut
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: jan@uswmrg.mrg.uswest.com (Jan Vilhuber)
Subject: Jumps in the Keys
Organization: USWEST Marketing Resources
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 01:32:46 GMT

I'm back from vacation. Let me tell you. It was excellent. The Florida
Keys are beautiful. I actually passed close to DeLand, but unfortunately didn't
have time to stop in there :-(

But thanks to Mark Smith, I got a place to jump down there. Incredible!
The scenery was absolutely perfect! Mark said something like "You haven't
lived until you see the Keys from above". I'd have to add that seeing them from
below (snorkling) is also very impressive, but that's besides the point.

I went to see the dude with the airplane ride operation, and asked him
what he thought of flying a skydiver. Well, turns out he would, if things
weren't so busy flying tourists around. Well. If I've learned one thing
in skydiving, it's patience and persistence. We finally found a time, when
there were no tourists lined up and the wind was not too strong to
jump and up we went. I felt lighter after he practically emptied my wallet,
but it was worth it.
On jump run: I look out, and see water. and we're heading away from the shore,
i.e. the airport (some concrete i the middle of the mangroves, which is the
run-way). Yikes. He tells me not to mind the water. It looks worse than
it is. Ok.. he's the captain (he used to run a skydiving operation
in Guam). Out I go. Wonderful. I bit chilly in my shorts, but what the
hey! Great. Wonderful. Lotsa blue water, islands here and there, the water 
is so clear you can make out the seabottom from free-fall... Ah..
I can't describe it. Spot was OK. A bit farther than I would have liked,
since this way I didn't get enough time to play under canopy, but I got
back to the airport without a problem. Only problem was my own ego. I decided
I wanted to jump in Teva's. Considering that the landing place was the 
tarmac/concrete/coral stones... Well.. I scraped my knee and my foot a bit,
but nothing bad. I SHOULD have worn better foot gear though. I could have
hurt myself more.

Anyway. Cheers! Hope y'all had a great holidays.

Jan
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org!SKYDIVE (SKYDIVE)
Subject: RE: TAKING CHANCES
X-Mailer: mailout v1.24 released
Originator: uucp@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Return-Path: <ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG!SKYDIVE>
To: skydive@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 14:51:50 GMT

Reply-to: Bill.Farrant@p0.f915.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Farrant)
Fido-To: ed

 > E> into the sport, making it more like a Carnival Ride.  Remove
 > E> the risks, and you remove the excitement, as well as a
 > E> closeness, & bonding of a breed of people who sometimes share
 > E> the edge with each other. Ever try to talk about Skydiving at
 > E> WUFFO party?   -Pull your own ripcord.


 > alot of your reply, in fact almost all of it.  But if you DON'T 
 > think
 > your in a high risk sport, perhaps you should take a reality pill.
 > and by the way, what do you think your adrenelin rush is a result 
 > of?
 > FEAR   -and why do you think your afraid?    Also, when I mentioned 
 > WHUFFOS
 > I was merely saying that most non-skydivers can't see the beauty of 
 > the sport, I dont believe I said ANYTHING about portraying our sport 
 > in any particular way, especially as you say "Crazy macho dickhead 
 > thrillseekers."

   I gotta agree with your comment about the jumping community. We are different. And as my group of friends changed after I started jumping, so that all of my present close friends are jumpers, I realized that I had finally found where I belonged.
   I don't think that you'll ever have to worry about the sport becoming so sanitized that the type of people in the community changes though. The perceived risks to a wuffo are, and always will be, greater than they actually are, no matter what safety devices and procedures we come up with.
   They lack the knowledge about the equipment and procedures that we use to prevent us from bouncing. As you know from the familiar question "what if you're parachute doesn't open?", a lot of them are not even aware that we have a reserve.
   The vast majority of wuffos will never try to make a jump no matter how safe it becomes, because only that certain type of person that it takes to be a skydiver will ever take the time and make the effort to make that first phone call or trip out to a drop zone to find out something more about the sport. And, of course, those of us that continue after that first contact are in the minority. 
   Only a certain type of person would ever want to confront their most ingrained fear and accept the risks, whether real or perceived, that will never change.
   

  Bill Farrant

 

--- TMail v1.31
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: Deep Cove BBS - White Rock, B.C., Canada (604)536-5885 (1:153/915)
--  
SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: Pull time safety
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 19:46:15 GMT

>: : I was talking to a guy at the DZ last week about who's at fault in an
>: : canopy/jumper collision at pull time.  His position was, "the low man
>: : has the right of way, so it's the high guy's fault".  I say, "O.K.,
>: : but why did the low guy pull into the high guy's face?"
>: 
>: I'd say that the low person has the right of way since they have less 
>: visibility and less altitude in which to maneuver than the high person.
>: The question of fault may not involve the right-of-way in some
>: circumstances.
>
>I'd like to add, that although fundamentally, the low person has the
>right of way, he/she also has responsibilities.  For instance, pulling
>at 5k after your dive plan called for a 2k opening is bad whether you
>are low-man or not.
>

Yes, death doesn't care whose fault it is!  I was on a four way once,
and we (as a group) decided on a 4k breakoff. Two of the members
thought this was "too high", but agreed to it. At breakoff, one of them
decided it was "play-time" and started into his own little freestyle
routine. The rest of us turned 180 and tracked. He sunk about 100 ft
below us, apparerantly became disoriented, and tracked right under
me. I was trying to fly out of his airspace, when I saw nylon coming 
my way.  You feel like you're being sucked into the burble of the 
opening canopy! The air over an opening canopy feels real funny,
and I don't care to ever feel it again!  I didn't want to deploy,
because then I'm totally
out of control, and I could easily snivel that extra 100 ft into him.
I ended up screaming by his canopy about 50 or 100 ft to his side. 

Now he was the low jumper, but he was TOTALLY at fault. Breakoff is
NOT play time. You get 6-9000 feet for fun, and 4000 to be serious so
you can live and do it again. Same thing under canopy- stay the hell away
from me when we're under canopy-  if you wanna do CRW w/ me, lets do
it starting at 10000, and PLAN it!!!!

"Hey now, let's be careful out there"  (anybody remember who said this?:^)

-Eric
From: koning@koning.enet.dec.com (Paul Koning)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Cypres
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:34:14 GMT
Reply-To: koning@koning.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Co., distributed systems architecture


In article <arichard.8@sph.unc.edu>, arichard@sph.unc.edu (ALISON RICHARD) writes:
|>I have been thinking of buying a cypres but am concerned following
|>Tom Piras' fatal decision to deactivate his.
|>
|>What was he doing that he felt required him to de-activate the unit?
|>
|>What evidence is there of mis-firings?
|>
|>I would like to compile some data on this subject and would be
|>grateful if anyone with relevant info. could e-mail it to me.
|>
|>Thanks - and lets hope 1993 is kinder to our sport.
|>
|>Alison Richard

I had been thinking about a Cypress too, and hadn't changed my mind as
a result of those reports -- mostly because there wasn't any explanation
attached.

From what asking around I've done, I've heard nothing about misfirings or
other negatives about Cypress.  But you do raise a good question.  Could you
follow up here once you've reached a conclusion (positive or negative) for
the edification of others with the same question?

Thanks,
	paul
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------
! Paul Koning, NI1D, A-13683
! Digital Equipment Co., LKG1-2/A19, Littleton, MA 01460, USA
! (508) 486-7313 or (508) 952-3344, koning@koning.enet.dec.com
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------
! "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over 
!  any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent
!  harm to others.  His own good, either physical or moral, is not
!  a sufficient warrant."    -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty" 1859
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (Jumpin Dude)
Subject: Re: AAD cutters vs. pullers
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 01:25:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.165808.28463@newsgate.sps.mot.com> beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com writes:
>Hi gang,
>
>Am seriously saving for some type of AAD unit for my rig.
>The three contenders are Cypress, FXC, Sentinel. I have 
>a twin pin reserve in my rig. 

You might also consider the MARS unit.

>

>the pin a small half inch back from under the loop. The cutter
>I would think, stands a fairly good chance of NOT actually cutting
>the loop. It only gets one shot at it I believe. It is not like 
>cutting a steak where you can cycle the blade back and forth.....

As I recall the cutter will cut 1/8" braided aircraft-steel cable.
I don't think the loop stands much of a chance ;-)
Pullers only get one shot too, you know.

>Also, if the loop is cut from inside the reserve container, such
>as the Cypres design, what are the possibilities that the loop
>may hesitate from feeding its way out..? Any delay at under 1000
>feet is not exceptable.

My guess is that activation is as quick as pulling youself. I don't see
why activation time should differ, those springs are pretty springy ;-)


>Jim Beutel	

Tim



Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org!SKYDIVE (SKYDIVE)
Subject: Re: SABRE 150 FO
X-Mailer: mailout v1.24 released
Originator: uucp@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Return-Path: <ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG!SKYDIVE>
To: skydive@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 04:55:09 GMT

Reply-to: Ed@p7.f68.n110.z1.fidonet.org (Ed)
Fido-To: bill farrant

>> * <170 jumps on the Canopy.
 
 
Didn't catch the whole message.  -How much, what colour(s),etc.
   Thanks, Ed 

--- DB 1.51/000077
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: D.E.'s Skydiving Dungeon (1:110/68.7)
--  
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Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org!SKYDIVE (SKYDIVE)
Subject: Re: Eloy Fatality
X-Mailer: mailout v1.24 released
Originator: uucp@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Return-Path: <ehsnet!f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG!SKYDIVE>
To: skydive@romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:54:36 GMT

Reply-to: Ed@p7.f68.n110.z1.fidonet.org (Ed)
Fido-To: romulus.ehs.uiuc.edu!hplsla.lsid.hp

> I have an unconfirmed rumor that a a jumper went in at Eloy during the
> Christmas/New Year's Boogie.  I was told the jumper was a french-speaking
> female jumper, ~18-years-old, low number of jumps, no-pull.
> Art Bori
> D-11402
 
A female friend of mine was at Eloy for the holidays, though it doesn't
sound like her. -Can anybody confirm the description Art Bori reported?,
thanks,  Ed.

--- DB 1.51/000077
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: D.E.'s Skydiving Dungeon (1:110/68.7)
--  
SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13
From: boucher@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Richard A Boucher Jr)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 00:47:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: CYPRES AAD's 'n' Freestyle Re: Eloy Fatality
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving

Apparently early on CYPRESs had a problem with certain radio frequencies/statis
electicity resulting in inappropriate activation.  Supposedly this has been
long since resoved, or so says my rigger (Mike Ince at Skydance), and Billy
down at PD Source in Deland. 

Billy told me that there's about 3000 CYPRES units out there with 5 confirmed
saves (too bad the number's not 6) and that they don't misfire...

FWIW     -Richard


From: karenk@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Karen Klemm)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 00:23:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: CYPRES AAD's 'n' Freestyle Re: Eloy Fatality
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving

In article <1993Jan4.224845.2730@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> horn@tegan.jsc.nasa.gov (Mark Horn) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.200350.6167@cascade.Stanford.EDU> king@glacier.Stanford.EDU (Robin King) writes:
>
>>BTW, if I were mainly doing freestyle I'd get a Cypres AAD.  And
>>DEFINATELY a Dytter or two.
>
>Why?  Because you're alone and don't have anyone to fall back on in case you
>do lose alt awareness...? 

Because with freestyle (solo), you don't have the inherent risks (bad side 
effects) that you have using an AAD while doing RW and CRW.  Such as a
canopy unexpectedly opening into someone who's trying to dock on an RW load.
Or an unexpected reserve because of a low-altitude, high-speed CRW manuever,
for instance.

I'm guessing this was meant as "If I were interested in getting an AAD, I'd
get a Cypres".

I agree that the Dytter statement seems to imply a loss of altitude awareness 
though.


 -Karen

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving