From: vengeanc@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: control
Date: 27 Jan 93 23:06:43 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

brinkley@cs.utexas.edu (Paul Brinkley) writes:


>The following are exchanges between me and Adrienne Regard.

>>>>>>If your nose is inside the womans body, she should be free to punch it
>>>>>>as much as she wants.
>>...Okay, I'll play along with that.  But what if I had no choice whether my
>>...nose was there or not?
>>
>>>>Okay, let's all play along with that.
>>>>What *if* you had no choice, but your nose was in fact inside the woman's
>>>>body.
>>>>Do you *seriously* propose she should just have to put up with your nose?
>>
>>>Good point.  Normally I wouldn't.  And the analogy breaks down around here,
>>>since in this case it's not just a nose, but an entire life (I note that
>>>"life" is arguable) inside.  And assuming it is a human life, which by
>>>sheer misfortune found itself inside a womb, it would be most unfair for
>>                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>him or her to have to die in deference to another human life's right to
>>>privacy.
>>
>>Why?
>>
>>Why would that be 'most unfair'?  Why would it not be MORE unfair to require
>>a living, breathing, sentient human woman decide whether or not to harbor
>>these people within her body if *she* chose to do so, or not?  Why does she
>>suddenly disappear from this picture when it is *her* body that is having
>>to do the work?

>You know, I just played this game with a friend of mine this morning.  He's
>pro-life, and so I offered him a sample of the pro-choice arguments I found
>here.  His views are perhaps a tad extreme; he doesn't believe the fetus is
>even a part of the mother, on the grounds that it's something the mother's
>body would reject if not for the placental wall surrounding it.  Therefore,
>the mother's rights don't extend into the womb, period.

>I replied that she _still_ has to carry some umpty-ump pounds of water
>around for nine months, and take part in a process with a considerably
>high chance of developing medical complications, and so part of her body
>or not, she's definitely involved.  He replied that "it's possible to have
>it taken out".  I replied that the cost would be prohibitive.  He said it
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

Just how much is a human life worth?  Liver transplants cost 100K and more.

>didn't matter in this case, and I realized once again how hard it is to
>change someone's mind on an issue like this.

>In conclusion, yes, her body is having to do the work.  And I will most
>certainly agree that her rights will be infringed were the government to
>decide in favor of the unborn child.  I did not mean to imply otherwise,
>and I apologize if my post appeared to treat women as "fetal containers".

>>>Were it up to me, I
>>>would look for another alternative.
>>
>>Can you tell us what other alternatives occur to you?

>I admit, not a whole lot.  Embryo transplants.  "Metal mommas".  Better
>contraceptives.  I fear our medical expert, Mark Cochran (who _still_
>won't tell me what T.S.A.K.C. stands for), could knock most of my ideas
>down as impractical, since he could argue circles around me when it
>comes to the medical profession.

Don't give Mr. Cochran so much credit.  There are plenty of other
medically educated people who think abortion is disgusting and
immoral.

>But then, I'm just one person, and a CS major at that.  There _are_
>other people working on "another alternative", people who are more
>qualified than I.  To be truthful, I subscribed to this newsgroup mainly
>to sharpen my debating skills, but maybe I ought to look in this a bit
>more.  I encourage you all to do the same.

>It seems the majority of the population sees this is a problem with only
>two solutions:  either the fetus gets its life, or the mother gets her
>privacy.  But everything I've ever experienced - every book I've read,
>every show I've watched, every lesson I've ever learned from my parents -
>forces me to come to the conclusion that if you work hard enough on it,
>you can have your cake, eat it, and lose weight in the process. :)

>In other words, I refuse to think of this as "Mother vs. Fetus in the
>Battle of the Century", one must win, the other must lose.  I'd rather
>see both win.

As of right now, this is Mother vs. Unborn Baby.  Either one is killed,
or both live and one has 9 months of discomfort (not including the
actual birth).  

>Paul Brinkley
>brinkley@cs.utexas.edu
>Pro-Thought Advocate


Edward Simmonds- standard disclaimers