From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:08:47 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.091120.7628@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

>In article <1992Oct8.205008.16570@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>Could you give a few examples?  Are any of these books written as
>>deliberate falsifications?  Do they deliberately invent things that
>>Poles are alleged to have said, for the purpose of inciting worldwide
>>hatred of Poles in general?  Substitute "Jews" for "Poles" and you
>>have the _Protocols_.  I know of no book like the Protocols; before
>>you attempt to make such an analogy, I suggest you read the work
>>under discussion.

>I think enough examples were given here. 

I have not seen any.  Could you do me the favor of citing any books
that treat Poles the way the _Protocols_ treat Jews: accuse them, via
forgery, of fomenting worldwide conspiracy?

>As you could notice so far
>even single person here did not maintain, that Protocols contain
>any truth. 

Not the point.  Many people in this discussion have failed to take
note of the special status of the _Protocols_ -- that it is a book
written *explicitly* as a lie, intended *only* to deceive.

>And it is probably the first position that can be accused
>of any anti-Jewish attitude. 

I don't understand this sentence.  Could you elaborate?

>Further more - it was not written
>in Poland, I do not think that even single Pole can be accused
>of cooperation in writing that. So whats the deal about that ?

Hello?  I don't think anyone accused Poles of writing it.  What
are you referring to?  [Please include at least a *hint* of what
you're responding to in cases like these.  Thanks.]

>That it can be found in Poland now ? I would be surprised if it can be
>found everywhere, so dealing with free market it is obvious it has to be
>found there. 

For the tenth time: no, that is NOT the point.  The point is that it was
being offered for sale in a *CHURCH* bookstore, which is NOT a "Free market."
The Church (and any church) only sells very limited selections of books,
generally those dealing with matters of the faith and related issues.
Church bookstores are not free marketplaces of ideas.

>The same I would expect with Mein Kampf. 

Would you not be disturbed to find it being sold in a church bookstore?

>And if you ask
>average Pole if he knows anything about Protocols, he will say
>truth - no. You cannot even discuss that position within s.c.p.
>because majority of us did not read it, I think.

Or heard of it, I might add.  Too bad -- that means that those who
*do* encounter it at that church bookstore will have no information
with which to defend themselves against its big anti-Semitic lie.

The issue here is not whether most Poles read this sort of thing, nor
whether most Poles are anti-Semitic or whatever.  The issue is that 
a *church* in Poland, a well-attended one, not only has a pastor with 
a reputation for anti-semitism but also sells a book like this in the
parish bookshop.  And that, evidently, no disciplinary action had been
taken by the diocese.

>Thre is completely different story with falsifications of Polish
>history. It is not new for Jewish community. Those falsifications
>were taken seriously as it was clearly and undeniably shown in this
>discussion. There are several positions that try to convert
>people fighting with Nazis during war and who survived Nazi
>ocuupation to be exterminated after war in large scale terror that
>most of people living in the West cannot imagine. This is simply unacceptable.
>Even single oppressor from UB which was not better in any aspect
>than SS was not punished so far. But those people after immigration
>managed to falsify the history so victims of mass terror now can
>look like murderers and murderers are cleared - they did wonderful
>things. I saw even movie here showing like UB was protecting Jewish
>orphanage while Home Army was attacking that. Don't you think that it is
>digusting for families of people who were slaughtered by those criminals?

I have no idea what the relevance of this might be to the issue of
the sale of the _Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ in a church.  The
_Protocols_ is not a distortion of history -- it is a deliberate
*forgery* that places words in the mouths of people who never said them
and who would have been horrified to have been connected to anything
like them.

>>>to cry the same way as about Protocols ? Did you cry or were you
>>>at least embarassed with so popular "Polish death camps " ? What

>>Ah.  One vague statement in a newspaper, one misplaced adjective, 
>>and you consider that equivalent to the _Protocols_?  Please explain.

>No, no, it is not one statement or mistake, lets be honest.
>It is action that is well known in Canada, people over there
>were fighting with that distortion for long time through
>all accessible means. But there is apparent stubborn feedback
>about that and we had voices from s.c.j. saying that entire
>problem is closeed because it is proper to call those camps Polish.

ONly on grounds of geography -- I don't think anyone argued that
Poles built or operated them.  But again, this matter of terminology
(or even of complicity) is not comparable to a book that was nothing 
but falsification from end to end, which was written with the express
intent of lying, of fomenting worldwide hatred against a people, and
whose authors knew that it was nothing but lies.

>>What has this to do with anything?   Was anyone here *supporting*
>>Kahane?  Do you insist that any Jew who argues with you first
>>recite a communal Litany of Transgressions for his community?  

>No. But I would like to point out, that any Jew who is talking in
>general terms like "Polish anti-Semitism" (which for me is unacceptable,
>talking about Polish pick-pocketing also would be unacceptable because
>of unacceptable generalization) 

Sorry, this one doesn't wash.  For one thing, Polsih anti-Semitism was
*institutional* both in the 1930's and after the war; for another, holding
an attitude and committing a crime are different things.  Is it wrong to
speak of Polish nationalism or Polsih Catholicism?  These are also
belief systems subscribed to by many Poles, and which differed in at least
 some particulars from similar ones in other countries.

>should also look into his own
>community what happens there to see those problems in proper perspective.

Utter nonsense.  Or, mor properly, ad-hominem argument in the nth degree.
To investigate the causes of attitudes held in Poland in the 1930's it
is *not* necessary to make comparisons to the political system of each
person taking part in the investigation.  

>I think that Michal explained that problem perfectly to you so far.

Yes, he has.  He's explained that, since Palestinians in the occupied
territories are not treated to his liking, I may not discuss Polish 
history -- or may not do so without simultaneously being accused of
complicity in a situation that does not meet his political expectations. 
Best of all, he brings in Israel only because I am Jewish -- or because
those oppressed in Poland in years past were Jewish.

It's nonsense.  This is not how one does history.  And it's racist
nonsense to boot.

>You do not have to discuss any issue that you feel is in no interest for
>you. Even if somebody talks about ancient history - you do not have to.

But I *do* have to talk about Israel every time we speak of Poland?

>But if somebody raises some issues related or not related with other
>topics that means, that for those people issues like that are
>legitimate.

Fine.  It's related to a thousand other topics.  Let's discuss ALL of
them each time.  Let's *nevr* get around to the heart of the matter
actually under discussion.  That way we'll never have to face up to the 
difficult matters actually under discussion.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.          

>>The issue is very simple: a virulently anti-Semitic text is being sold
>>by a church, and so far as we know, nobody in the church hierarchy has
>>addressed this problem.

>I think it would be good to discuss that with church and see what
>church has to say about that. Maybe church will say something
>that we do not know ? Maybe in that particular shop mentioned here
>church did not have any control ? 

That would be very distressing -- after all, the Church advertises that
it *does* control the doctrine preached in its parishes.

>Maybe church would like to see
>some actions in the Jewish community in reciprocation  regarding anti-Polish
>literature ? 

WELL!  This is *very* interesting.  Is that any way to do business?
"If the Jewish community (as though there were one in Poland to speak of)
doesn't publish the things we want it to, we'll continue to publish
this lying, slanderous document which has caused untold misery and 
contributed to the holocaust brought down upon all of Europe only 50
years ago."

Anybody who actually did something like that would be beneath contempt.

>Personally I have no comment because I did not read Protocols.

At least read something *about* it.  It is a complete fabrication,
cobbled together from two novels of the 1870's and 1880's, that 
purports to be the secret protocols of the Zionist Congress in Vienna.
It is disgusting shit that, were it to appear in *your* church bookstore,
I am certain that you would take immediate measures and ask lots of
questions of the people responsible.

>>Rabbi Kahane, inaccurate texts elsewhere, and all the rest have *nothing* to
>>do with this issue.

>It depends how you define the issue. 

The issue: a church sold copies of one of the most notorious books
ever written.

>But it happens often that two
>people have different views how broad specific issue is and also
>there is need for tolerance in cases like that - those who do not like
>issue are not forced to discuss it. Those who like can discuss it.

Fine.  I'm discussing it.  And I have *no* tolerance for anyone who
sells the _Protocols_ except for purposes of research into anti-Semitism.

>Thats what also democracy is about.

Democracy has nothing to do with the workings of a church bookstore.

Roger

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