From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: "Pro-Lifers" Are Really Pro-Death
Date: 25 Jul 92 00:31:11 GMT
Organization: LLNL

In article <BrwCst.2nA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer) writes:
>jxs52@po.CWRU.Edu (Jonathan Sheir) writes:

::I don't understand how these religious zealots who call themselves
::"Pro-Life" can do so.  By outlawing abortion, they would be forcing
::women back in the alleys, and many would die of these illegal abortions.

:Three-part response:
:1) It would "force" both men and women to be responsible for the
:results of their actions.  If they wish to engage in a procreative
:act, then they have to deal with the results of their action.

	This argument that unwanted pregnancy is a punishment for the
sin of sex for the fun of it is just like other arguments that have
been advanced against medical treatments for diseases, and even
lightning rods.

	When Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod, he was denounced
by some clergymen, including one Rev. Price, who accused him of
helping people get away with their sins by creating a short circuit
for God's wrath.

	There were those who objected to inoculation and vaccination
for smallpox on similar grounds, that they were interfering with God's
chosen method for punishing sin.

	In Kellmeyerian terms, those who objected to vaccination and
lightning rods were simply trying to make people accept the
consequences of their actions.

:2) No one can be "forced" to undertake an illegal activity.  

	It would depend on what is outlawed :-).

:3) Killing babies, as long as they are in a womb and being killed by
:the mother's choice, is currently legal.  Why do you refuse to realize
:that ALL of the children involved in abortion are dying?

	Provided that they qualify as human, which is doubtful at best
early in the pregnancy, at least.

	Would you call an entity with the growth properties of
cancerous tissue fully human? (Admittedly, an early embryo does have
to do a lot of growing :-)

::And many of these people are
::against teaching the young about safe sex, and then diseases like AIDS
::spread.

:"These people" teach chastity.  If you don't engage in sex, you have an
:extraordinarily small chance of getting AIDS.  True, many of us are 
:against the use of contraceptives.  But claiming that condoms offer
:protection against AIDS, is like claiming that schools should teach
:"safe" Russian roulette - always wear a Kevlar vest.  After all, teenagers
:are GOING to play Russian roulette, theirs no way to stop them, so we
:really ought to show them how to do it safely.  

	Actually, one should wear a helmet when playing Russian
roulette -- but then it wouldn't be Russian roulette anymore unless it
was safe.

	On the subject of "chastity", there is a surefire way of
ensuring it. 

	It is recommended in Matthew 19:12, which states that there
are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the
Kingdom of Heaven. Indeed, Galen reported that some young Christian
men would go to doctors and ask to be neutered. Even the theologian
Origen had neutered himself, though the Church would later frown on
the practice (I don't know why; there is even an official whose duty
is to check that candidates for the Papacy have not been neutered).

	The nice thing about this technique is that it does need much
willpower, making it idiot-proof.

	Reproduction?

	That might be managed by genetic-engineering techniques.

	Even short of getting neutered, one can reproduce by
artificial insemination and _in vitro_ fertilization. This has the
nice property of not requiring any sexual contact, though the man does
have to masturbate. This type of reproduction is admittedly easier on
women, who can have children without ever practicing any sexual
activity whatsoever; men don't quite have it so easy :-)

	And to say that "morality" is essentially the rejection of
sexuality is like saying that nothing else is really "moral" --
consider that one Fundie lobbying group gave a 100% rating to one
Congresscritter who was found guilty of taking Abscam bribes. The
response: taking bribes was not a real moral issue.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion