From: smr@hitkw14.pki-nbg.philips.de (S.Riehm)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.human-factors,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Keywords: Mac, Window, Throw
Date: 4 Sep 92 12:23:19 GMT

krawling@banana.ucs.indiana.edu (Ken Rawlings) writes:


>        I love GUI's as much as the next person, and I do believe they have
>their place. However, it seems to me that when you take them to the extreme,
>they become not only cumbersome, but _unusable_.

I used to love GUI's, then I had to use one everyday for work, its a
bit like kicking a habit by over indulging until you make yourself
sick. It doesn't always work.. but in my case it did.

So much so that now, I have reconfigured my window manager so much
that no-one else can use it.. essentially I have removed all
dependencies on the mouse, I can do everything from the keyboard.
( OK, I don't draw pictures often, nor do I sign things ( being a
little person the only things I sign are cheques for the rent ) ). The
one thing that I haven't 'keyboardified' is the cut and paste
operation.. this is obviously a mousy thing, but in vi I never use it.

Mind you, this conversion wasn't easy, but it can be done, I still
have trouble with some proprietary software that thinks that mouses are
great and that the keyboard is only used for filling in dialogue
boxes.

>        There are two relatively simple things that I want to do on a Mac that
>I _still_ have no idea how to do, even after reading all of the info-mac
>digests, and using Mac's extensively. 

>        #1: Send a postscript file to the printer. Just shove that baby down
>            the serial connection to the printer. No, I don't want to modify
>            it in a word processor, or anything else. Here's the file, across
>            the room is a postscript printer. Send it. I've talked to
>            _numerous_ people that consider themselves "Mac Gods" and they
>            all agreed, "Can't be done without a special program, and I don't
>            know where you'd find it"

but that file might have unprintable characters in it, or it might not
be a postscript file at all.. you see the computer knows best.
( In this case I would be tempted to sit down and write that special
program, and charge the time wasted to apple for not supplying a
reasonable interface )

>        #2: See this file sitting on the Hard Drive? Execute it. No, I don't
>            care that you think it's a "Document", just trust me and run the
>            damn thing. This is a _real_ problem when you have a bunch of
>            .hqx files, and have a copy of binhex4.bin that you downloaded
>            with a PC(why didn't I download it on the mac? Those beautiful
>            unstandard serial ports that I don't have a cable for and Apple
>            wants an arm and a leg for a converter for, and ComputerLand 
>            can't understand the question in the first place :-( )

again, the computer knows best ( BARF )

>        Basically, I can't deal with a computer that thinks it's smarter than
>me...

I figure that GUI's are inherently non-extensible, even those
wonderful window manager that allow you to define your own pop-up
menus and so on, can you make this menu beep when it pops up? can you
make this tear off menu always sit at the back of the window stack
unless called up explicitly? 

I have found the CLI interface ( for my work ) to be most flexible,
you can type anything, if you get it wrong it simply coughs and
splutters, but it lets you do it.. with GUI's and CUI's, what's
allowed is allowed, and anything else IS IMPOSSIBLE.. which means a
good GIU need to cater for just about everything.. thats a pretty tall
order to give ANYONE! ( I wouldn't touch it personally :-) )

>                                        Hoping to be proved wrong(please!),
>                                                        Ken Rawlings

is this a normal state of mind or are you just feeling insecure
today?? I've always preferred being proven right, its more satisfying,
but in this discussion, I don't think there is a right and wrong, just
shades of grey in the middle. My concept of right is that everything
must have a CLI at least ( then you can run it from home over the
modem ), and then GUI's and CUI's are nice extras ( sometimes
necessary for truly graphical stuff ), which keep the casual users
happy, the power users can then choose which is most appropriate for
them.

>-- 
>: Ken Rawlings      | One Tool to rule them all, one Tool to find them,       
>: Computer Science  | One Tool to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
>: Indiana University|           -J.R.R. Tolkien(referring to Emacs)

wouldn't it be interesting if RMS planted a time bomb in there.. all of
a sudden, half the computer industry, out like a light.. oohh scary
stuff. But I don't think he did, he's a good guy!

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