From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Violation of Netiqutte (was: Stan - Hatred is unbecoming)
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:11:02 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Nov16.221934.6210@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>Dominick V. Zurlo writes:
>>Stan Krieger writes:
>
>>>>Just for readers clarification, Stan's email to me begins the line
>>>>with a % sign......
>
>>>As all you netnews readers see from the header of Dominick's posting,
>>>what he did was to take private email from me and, without my
>>>knowledge or consent, publically post it.  Such behavior is a total
>>>violation of netiquette, and Dominick knows it.
>>
>>Except that in my last email message to you Stan I had told you I would
>>refuse to deal with you through email and that any email you sent would 
>>be posted.  Especially when you are insulting and denegrating people 
>>without any backing.  You lost any courtesies you had from myself
>>when you refused to apologise for in essence calling myself and others
>>on this net child abusers.  Unitl such an apology is forthcoming, you 
>>have no rights to ettiquete of any kind from me.  

Here, I need to correct myself.  It was not an email message I 
sent about posting your email Stan, it was a public post on this 
group.  
>>>
>>>I especially resent the use of the word "hatred" in the subject of
>>>Dominick's unauthorized posting of the email.  I simply do not agree
>>>with certain gay rights agenda assumptions.
>>
>>Ahh, so you can call people child abusers for no reason and think that is not 
>>hatred?  Twisted thoughts there Stan.  Very twisted.  Go seek professional
>>help.  We aren't talking any rights assumptions.  We're talking a claim you 
>>make and have yet to substantiate.  Until you do so.  Go away. 
>
>Hopefully, we can all let this matter now drop and move onto 
>Scouting issues and ideas.  I am extremely upset at the 
>unfounded lies and innuendos that have been posted about me
>simply because I disagree with certain assumptions or political
>agenda items of the gay rights movement.  I feel I am the one
>owed an apology.

I personally would like to drop the subject completely, however, I 
can't becuase others won't.  I am not allowed into the major 
scouting movement in this country on a basis no one has a right 
to judge me on.  There have been no lies or innuendos posted here
about you Stan that have not been based on things you've said.  
disagreeing with assumptions and agenda items has nothing to 
do with this.  the fact that you still haven't figured that out 
says much.  It's about equality and treating people like people.
You aren't owed an apology.  But I'll get to that in a minute.
>
>To clarify my position on the matter, so these personal attacks will
>drop, while I DO consider a person's sex partner as being a CHOICE that
>a person makes, and, consistent with the religious standards and
>societal norms in the U.S.A., I do consider sex between members of the
>same sex as immoral,  I also feel, and this seems to get lost in
>all the noise, that there are MANY instances where a person's choice
>of sex partner has absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand
>(such as employment or security clearances) and thus should not be
>a factor.  But I do feel, and clearly this is where the friction
>between Dominick, et. al., and me lie, that there are some circumstances,
>and youth group leader is one of them, where it is a legitimate factor.
>(The closest parallel I can draw is where a Jew married to a non-Jew
>wants to be a youth group leader at my synagogue; such a marriage
>is forbidden by the religion, and thus would clearly give the wrong
>message to our children as to what an acceptable choice might be 10
>years or so down the road.)

Fine, think of it as a choice.  I really don't care.  It isn't acceptable
to you becuase of your views.  Fine.  BUt it is acceptable to me, according
to mine.  ANd you do not have the right to deny me anything on that basis. 
ANything.  If you are so worried about lesbigay's "recruiting" do you think
that not being a part of the BSA would make that any more difficult?  Be 
realistic.  lesbigays do not recruit, I personally would not want someone 
who isn't gay try to be.  It isn't fun.  There's no reason to be someone you 
aren't.  It isn't the same as religion.  religion doesn't have anything to 
do with it.  SOme religions accept it, and some don't.  SOme sects within
a religion accept it, some don't.  SOme people within a religion accept it,
some don't.  

To give an example.  If people wonder why I'm being personal about this, 
it's becuase it is personal.  I'm being judged here, as are all others 
who are excluded, and that is very personal.  
  Sorry, the example.  there are only a few events I can point to in my
life that I can say clearly directed me toward my current choices in life. 
One of them was one of my high school english teachers, who is a very
strict Jew.  ( I believe he is Orthodox).  My first try at coming out 
was to write an essay in his class on how accepting myself as being a 
"homosexual" was the most important decision in my life.  (I didn't 
really know what being gay menat, thus the differenc in terms) He read
it, graded it, and then asked to speak with m e a few days later.  
He and I had a very good rapport.  He was our advisor on our academic
team as well, which I was on also.  We talked for hours.  He asked me 
if I was sure, how I knew, what did it mean to me.  He also told me
that only I could figure this out, and that he would help anyway he could.  
To be ther for support, to talk, to even cry if I needed.  He also told me 
that he was very uncomfortable with the idea becuase he felt it was 
against his religion.  But he put that aside.  to help me work thru 
my problems with accepting myself.  Now, I turned around after a few
weeks and never said anything else about it, essentially going back into 
the closet.  But the support and help and love he gave me.  Letting me 
know that he was there for me, unconditionally, that was what I needed. 
It helped me to build on my beliefs as an individual that it doesn't 
matter who or what you are, you'll find yourself, and all I could do 
is to be there to help.  To listen, to supprt when needed, but not to 
control.  
  That's what being a leader is all about.  it doesn't matter gay/straight
catholic/jewish/islam/etc... it's being there to listen and to help 
the kids figure out how to decide things for themselves, to make themselves 
stronger.  That's scouting.  Not these policy debates, these quibbles and
squabbles.  That takes away from it.  But had my teacher told me that 
being gay was wrong and that he was against it, I would not be here today. 
I would have killed myself.  Because one of the people I regarded most had
turned on me and declared me evil.  In my case that didn't happen, but
it does in many others.  that's why I fight so strongly for this.  that's
why I am so personal about this.  We are talking about lives here.  Kids'
lives.  Kids who are confused and don't need to be told what to do, but 
shown how to find the answers themselves.  
>
>Perhaps my use of child-abuser was too strong, but I do feel that
>counseling a teenage boy that sex with males might be acceptable,
>is just as wrong as counseling a Jew that marriage outside the religion
>might be acceptable.  And for rec.scouting purposes, all we are
>talking about is what is proper, within BSA guidelines, for the
>boys.
Your use of child-abuser was not just too strong.  It was 
insulting and denegrading.  it was improper to say the
least.  Your views are fine for you.  But not for me.  
BSA guidelines state that homosexuality is wrong and 
not allowed.  But BSA guidelines also say that what is
best for the boys should be followed with leader discretion. 
BSA guidelines can be incorrect, and harmful.  That is what 
this is all about.  The BSA is supposed to be more of an 
advisory body than anything else.  Let the troops decide. 
rec.scouting is not just the BSA, it is world-wide.  
Other programs accept lesbigays.  Why is there a problem.  
There shouldn't be one.  For you Stan, it is a problem, 
fine, but don't say I can't be just as good of a leader 
becuase I have different views.  Because I can be.  I've 
proved it before and shown it.  BSA guidelines change,
continuously.  Let's change them again.  
I grew up in the BSA, was shaped, formed, literally
created. I refused to live a lie, and when I tolf the
truth I was rejected.  This is personal, because it
hurts me.  It hurts people.  If you truely believe in 
letting people be, then fine, let the troops decide each 
and individually, then Stan, you will have your say on how 
your childeren are raised, andothers (including me) will 
have control over theirs.  
.
****************************************************************
*  Dominick V. Zurlo              *    "If the world's an      *
*  WWW                            *    oyster, why am I        *
*  Eagle Scout '87                *    allergic to Mollusks?"  *
*  blacklisted '88                *                            *
****************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.scouting