HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up?
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 19:41:27 GMT

(Sorry, email to Brad Kepley of this post bounced)

In article <1993Jan4.022547.24574@cs.unca.edu>, Brad Kepley wrote:
|> >no one could be in any real doubt about what the Nazis intended
|> 
|> Well, now you're not just convicting the Vatican, but also all those people
|> who supported the Nazis early (including men like Oswald Spengler), all 
|> of the nations of Europe who cooperated and supported the Nazis because
|> of their fear of the Bolshevics, and particularly Chamberlain but
|> also Roosevelt and the Americans who opposed early entry into the war,
|> as Jew killers. After all, as you point out:
|> 
|> >  Their anti-semitic program was on public
|> >show early on.   The elimination of Jews from Germany was in Clause
|> >5 of the 1920 Party program.
|> 
|> So all these people "wanted the Jews and Atheists killed" as you put
|> it?

I'd say that all those who actively supported the Nazis are guilty of
supporting the mass murders they accomplished.  I'd also say that those who
knew what was going on and did nothing are also guilty, but not to the same
degree.  The latter includes the governments of England and the US.  (I heard
that the Allies mounted a successful raid to save the Lippizaner stallions in
Austria near the end of the war; no such attempt was made for concentration
camp inmates...)

I'm not sure which category the Catholic Church falls into.  It appears to me
that they had the moral responsibility to do all they could to fight the Nazis,
if they really were interested in being true to the teachings of Jesus (as I
might understand them).  To do any less was hypocrisy.  The Vatican has
consistently failed to act to protect those who could most benefit from the use
of the unbelievable resources the Vatican has at its disposal.  What could the
Vatican do in Somalia?  I mean REALLY do!  Having the Pope plead for peace
isn't the answer I'm thinking of.

|>   The Catholic Church is led by fallible men who make foreign policy
|> mistakes and have many skeletons in their closets, and they can be 
|> sanctimonious, just like others (I won't mentionany names). But who 
|> hasn't made terrible mistakes, given a thousand years of history and rapidly
|> changing moral values?

As someone else pointed out, the Church is supposed to speak from the highest
moral authority.  Of course, their leaders are human and make mistakes, but
they never admit it.  They can't, because after that admission, all of their
decisions and positions on all sorts of issues would be suspect:

	"Gee, if they were wrong about that, maybe they are wrong about {abortion
	| birth control | women priests}!"

|>    And looking back now with comfortable 20/20 hindsight and high moral
|> indignation, who did behave correctly during that awful time?  

Raul Wallenberg, for one.  Let me know if you don't know his story (which may
or may not be finished).  The minority of Poles who harbored Jews.  The Dutch
who did the same.

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: paul@clodii.Columbia.NCR.COM (Paul Fidler)
Subject: Re: Psychics' Predictions Fizzle For 1992
Summary: psychic predictions from Weekly World News for 92
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 17:07:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.202155.14634@mail.cornell.edu> phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.134711@IASTATE.EDU>, danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock) writes:
>|>    Also, yes, obviously people put money on these things.  What is the
>|> yearly cashflow of the National Enquirer?  People who buy that crap
>|> sometimes buy it with money squeezed out of their children's food budget.
>
>I can't say that I squeeze the food out of my son's mouth, but I _do_ buy the
>_Weekly_World_News_ (lowest of the low!), because, IM(NS)HO, you simply can't
>buy more entertainment for that amount of money!
>

Speaking of which, let's get back to the subject line.....

From the _Weekly_World_News_, Oct. 22, 1991, cover:

"PREDICTIONS FOR 1992--WORLD'S TOP PSYCHICS PEER INTO THE NEW YEAR!

  JANUARY: MYSTERY ILLNESS WIPES OUT HOLLYWOOD!

  FEBRUARY: OPRAH REVEALS SEXUAL ENCOUNTER WITH SPACE ALIEN!

  MARCH: AMERICANS GET $5000 EACH FROM U.S. GOV'T!

  APRIL: EARTHQUAKE SPLITS ALASKA IN TWO! 

  MAY: GARTH BROOKS SWIMS ENGLISH CHANNEL!

  JUNE: FIDEL CASTRO FLEES CUBA IN RUBBER DINGHY!

  JULY: NOSE SPRAY STOPS HEART ATTACKS--INSTANTLY!

  AUGUST: LIZ TAYLOR GIVES BIRTH TO BABY AT 60!

  SEPTEMBER: DAN QUAYLE CAUGHT WITH PLAYBOY BUNNY!  
     and     DOCS CREATE FOUR-LEGGED WONDER TURKEYS!

  OCTOBER: GUNS N' ROSES HEALS CRIPPLED FAN ON MTV!

  NOVEMBER: BEVERLY HILLS 90210 CAST GETS SEX CHANGE!

  DECEMBER: ELVIS APPEARS ON CHRISTMAS EVE!


Apologies for the liberated bandwidth, especially if someone has already
posted these (could've happened! I wasn't around at the start of this thread..
...)  I guess I followed along all year hoping for that 5k, or at least that
ol' Garth would pull it off. Alas, the cover of this issue now has big red-ink
X's all over it.....



......................................... Paul Fidler .................
"Please consult your physician            NCR Corporation, Columbia, SC
 before exercising with Lee Haney"        paul@clodii.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: SERTEL@ibm.gwdg.de
Subject: Reader from Australia out there?
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 19:50:35 MEZ

 
WANTED: e-mail short-cut to Western Australia
 
I would save 18 days snail time if someone on the board in Western
Australia would be so kind and receive from me an urgent to-be-
published article, copy it on diskette (5 1/4") and post the diskette to
 
 
                                 Dr. Geoffrey Dean
                                 Recent Advances
                                 P.O. Box 466
                                 Subiaco 6008
                                 Western Australia
 
Then he would further receive from Dr. Dean, a few days later, the
diskette and is asked to post the file on it via e-mail back to me
 
                                 E-Mail: SERTEL@DGOGWDG1.BITNET
 
(Geoffrey Dean will return postage expenditure). Geoffrey is expert in
Mars effect matters, very skeptical of astrology (author of a book
"Recent advances" and a critical article published 1988 in the
Skeptical Inquirer) and has always been helpful in commenting on
and polishing reports of mine on studies in that field. I need his
- and your - help. Thanks.
 
Suitbert Ertel
From: maufd@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr J S Graley)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Characterization of quack theories
Date: 12 Jan 1993 18:12:33 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
NNTP-Posting-Host: lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk

"amy lynn young-leith" <alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>Look at how people are taught in our educational system:  "This *is*
>the right answer.  Remember it and place it on the test.  Those other
>things that people are trying are just crap.  I don't want to hear
>about them, because *this* is right."  

Hmmm

In my experience, the 'regurgitation' approach to education is demanded by the
_pupils_, not the teachers. While many science teachers are interested in 
real science (which has no more to do with regurgitating facts then, say, 
english), most students are more concerned with their exam results and they
believe memorising the rules without question is the best method.

Whenever I (In my capacity as self-confessed egotist) get asked something by
a friend, it worries me that the answer is often taken without question.

You may have memories of the educational system being like that, but be careful
where you lay the blame for this personal experience. 

~THE GREAT NAME
-- 
    Don't worry,
     Its like in the comic books...
      ITS NOT REAL!
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
From: "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Why does Eire get so much press?
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:56:53 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   7 Jan 93 09:41:39 GMT
>FROM:   dave budd <zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk>
>
>NB in '92, the Unionists (broadly Protestant, want Northern Ireland to 
>remain part of UK) killed more people than the other lot.
>
>The people in the south would like Ireland to be one country, but on the 
>whole they're not into violent means of achieving this.  Go there for your 
>next vacation, it's a very friendly place with lots of beautiful countryside 
>and some damn good beer.  Even with an English accent and a noticeable lack 
>of attendance at Catholic church services, nobody will be nasty to you.
>
>  No Trespassing: 4/17ths of a haiku.     D.Budd@mcc.ac.uk   fax 6040
>  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England    (44|0)61-275-6033  

I don't mean to slam Ireland, north or south, Dave, really.  What you 
say affirms what I was saying -- Ireland is one of the safest, nicest 
places around and the US in just the opposite.  The practice of bringing 
children from Belfast (not Dublin - I dropped the ball, there) to 
Detroit to escape the "strife" looks crazy to me, just based on the 
numbers. 

Since Belfast is about 1/5 the size of Detroit, assuming that all 2000 
or so deaths from "strife in N. Ireland" were in Belfast (which they 
weren't, of course), they should match 1 year's Detroit totals with 5 
years' of their own in Belfast.  Detroit kills about 2000 per year, and 
it's taken Belfast 25 years to reach that total.  The Irish just can't keep 
up with solid American-style violence.  For all the sound and fury on 
US television coverage of N. Ireland, it's child's play compared with 
Detroit, with drug warfare, muggings, rape, police brutality, etc.

  ,...,.,,
 /666;    ',    jim tims
////;    _~ -   p00168@psilink.com
(/@/----0-~-0
 ;'  . `` ~ \'
  , `    ' , >
;;|\..((   -C---->> Sorry about that rash of posts, folks.  A real spasm
;;| >-  `.__),;;    on my part.  I didn't mean to post ANY of them. 


Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: mmeyer@m2.dseg.ti.com (Mark Meyer)
Subject: Re: Some more predictions for 1993
Organization: TI DSEG, Spring Creek, Plano, Tx.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:55:10 GMT

In article <1ioaj4INN552@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes) quotes:
> "We will begin to use cold fusion (another form of nuclear energy
> using a single isotope of water) to supply our energy needs."

	A single isotope of >water<?
	It seems that psychics, like the normal people that they are,
are willing to talk about things they don't understand.

-- 
Mark Meyer                                               | mmeyer@dseg.ti.com |
Texas Instruments, Inc.,  Plano TX                       +--------------------+
Every day, Jerry Junkins is grateful that I don't speak for TI.
         "If only I could forget her."  "Pretend you owe her a couple hundred."
From: nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Glub Glub... Any Floods in Human History?
Date: 12 Jan 93 08:55:51 GMT
Organization: University of Bergen

In article <1993Jan12.040948.13969@gallant.apple.com> batman@apple.apple.com (Ken Laws) writes:

>Part 2: my friend said he'd heard of "geological evidence" of the ocean level
>rising a couple hundred feet sometime during humanity's existence. Sounds
>like creationist pseudo-science to me. Anyone know where this idea came from?

>Thanks,

>Ken.

I am not a geologist, and I don't know the source of your friend. In 
addition, it is difficult to decide if the sea is rising or the land is
sinking. In Scandiavia there is ample evidence of coast-line changes since 
the end of the last ice age (the last 12000 years or so). Judging 
from fossils there were two periods when the Baltic was a fresh-water lake.
One speaks of a general land rise which continues today and which is about 1 
cm a year at its maximum (county of Angermanland, in the gulf of Bothnia). 
In that area the highest marine limit is more than 200 m above sea level. In 
the Goteborg (Gothenburg) area, where I grew up, it is a little less than 
100 m. In southermost Sweden there has been no land rise at all. The usual 
explanation of this landrise is that is a reaction to a depression caused by 
the ice sheet. This is far from certain, however.

There is also Scandinavian evidence of a period with the sea rising, some 7 
or 8 thousand years ago. The quarternary geologists' time-scale is
quite detailed, but I quote things I read decades ago. I don't remember
how big this rise was. I would think that between 10 or 30 meters would be
right. This rise is given as the reason for the opening of the
Danish straits and the Baltic being connected to the ocean.

In southernmost Sweden and in adjoining areas of Denmark, Germany etc.
there is no land rise. Instead, it is believed that large areas of
what is now the North Sea were once dry land. The Friesian Islands
from the North of Holland along the coast of Germany up to Denmark
formed a coast-line which was destroyed by heavy storms in the
17th century A.D.. This catastrophy is of course known in detail. 

From other parts of the world, the original and now extinct human population
of Tasmania is believed to have got there by foot, not by boat. Also, the 
crossing of the Bering's straits by the first settlers of America may have 
been over land. However, I have seen no accounts of sea-level changes in that
area.

All in all, I don't think that your creationist friend was all wrong when
he referred to geological evidence of substantial sea-level changes in 
human time. These changes, however, do not support the Biblical account
of the whole world being under water and all of mankind descending from
Noah and his family. Neither do they support the Swedish 16th century
historian Johannes Magnus, who claimed that one of Noah's grandsons was the 
first king of Sweden :-) .

Rolf Manne
Department of Chemistry, University of Bergen
e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:22216 alt.atheism:25436
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Date: 8 Jan 93 23:04:30 GMT
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Jan8.174857.29599@cs.unca.edu>, kepley@photon.phys.unca.edu (Brad Kepley) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan8.135041.970@klaava.Helsinki.FI> cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand) writes:
|> >
|> >Strange, that people (= John ATA Something, apparantly you, and most of
|> >the "others" - perhaps even a lot of the atheists) don't seem to get the
|> >point even when it is spelled out.
|> >To repeat: the point is that if somebody is religious, that says diddly
|> >squat about his/her morals. _That_ is the point.
|> >                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >	Tero Sand
|> >-- 
|> 
|> Well, that is your point anyway.  I don't think you'll find many Christians
|> who think that Christianity is mainly about morals.  You don't understand
|> Christianity.

Well, if it isn't about morals, and if we don't think much of your
supernaturalism, what's left for you to post to alt.atheism about?

jon.
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21984 alt.atheism:24914
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Date: 4 Jan 1993 22:26:13 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <C0CnAL.CsL@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>, sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner) writes:
|> In article <1ia8cnINNpeh@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> |> 
|> |> How can any of us have any confidence that episodes like cooperation
|> |> with the Nazis won't be repeated, when the church and its followers
|> |> spend their time trying to rationalise away what happened, instead
|> |> of saying frankly "Yes, we screwed up, and we're going to find out
|> |> why".
|> 
|> I don't know about the Roman Catholic church, but I believe the Lutheran 
|> church in (West) Germany did precisely that after the war.  I'll see if 
|> I have any references in my files.  

That would be great.   It would be the most definitive answer to the
"no major denomination cooperated with the nazis" claim that started
this discussion.

jon.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic,alt.atheism
From: zed@maths.tcd.ie (John Walsh)
Subject: Re: Why does Eire get so much press?
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:26:41 GMT

p00168@psilink.com (James F. Tims) writes:

>>FROM:   Steve Lang <lpzsml@unicorn.nott.ac.uk>
>>
>>In Article 38465 of alt.atheism, U16244@uicvm.uic.edu (David James Alexander Hanley) writes:
>[...]
>>>churches.  If only they could tell their people in Ireland to stop
>>>shooting protestants..

(1)       The Catholic church does condemn IRA murders. The Church of Ireland
     also condems the murder of catholics. Infact the catholic and protestant 
     chuches have condemned ALL sectarian murders for many years.
(2)       You cannot reasonably expect any terrorist in Northern Ireland to
     listen to what the churches say. 
(3)       Religion does not play a (significant) part in IRA murders, it is 
     politics that counts. 
         You are just as likely to be mudrdered if you are a 
     Catholic in the UDR as if you are a protestant in the UDR.
(4)      To think that the murders/bombings in Northern Ireland is 
     a completely one-sided affair , is showing how naive/ignorant you are 
     of the Northeren Ireland Issue.
 	 Indeed , the Unionist Paramilitaries have recently steped up there
     campaign against Catholics. In addition to shooting Sinn Fein election
     workers and (suspected) IRA/INLA(etc) terrorists , they now do hit and run 
     jobs on bookmaker shops to try and take out as many Catholics as possible.
     There hit and run method is quite nice, it comprises of shooting into the 
     shop at random (Presumed to be Catholic) targets. 
       In one of the latest Unionist attacks , 2 people were brutally murdered 
    in response to the equally brutal murder of a R.I.R (soldier with 
    the Royal Irish Rangers) by the IRA. 

     				     zed. 

(note , i do NOT support the IRA or any terrorist organisation)
 
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: stevens@odie.ee.wits.ac.za (Fred Stevens)
Subject: critique of Lyall Watson
Keywords: debunking
Organization: Wits Electrical Engineering (Novell Users).
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:21:27 GMT

Hi, 

Does anyone have any info pertaining to the analysis of claims made by Lyall 
Watson in his books and talks?

Regards,
Fred.
Post:   University of the Witwatersrand   | I've seen the future
        Dept. of Electrical Engineering   | and it hurts!
        P.O. Wits 2050                    | 
        Republic of South Africa.         | 
Fax:    +27 11 403 1929                   |
Tel:    +27 11 716 5433                   |
E-mail: stevens@odie.ee.wits.ac.za        |
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: Velikovsky Criticisms Wanted
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:59:25 GMT

In article <2368@snap> paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson) writes:
}In article <8341@lib.tmc.edu> draper@odin.mda.uth.tmc.edu (E.J. Draper) writes:
}>It really shocked my that Sagan spent the amount of time he did in order
}>to rebuke Velikovsky.  As a matter of fact, I can't understand why
}>anybody would want to invest time and effort in dealing with such obvious
}>nonsense.
}
}Because to many people it is *not* obvious nonsense.  Some people lack
}the background in science and archeology.

A not uncommon comment for an individual was that while it was absurd
in his field (the field of the one speaking), the rest was interesting
and worth studying.  The physicists thought Immanuel's physics was
awful, but thought that the history was worth investigation.  The historians
thought his history was bunk, but that the science was worth further 
investigation.  Velikovsky made so many absurd statements that there
was something said that wasn't known as absurd by anyone.


Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: schnitzi@cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius)
Subject: My psychic predictions for the rest of 1992 (results)
Organization: University of Central Florida
Distribution: sci
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:55:01 GMT


As you may or may not recall, at the end of last June I
posted a list of my "psychic" prediictions for the second
half of 1992.  I will now announce the results of these
predictions.


>1.  Bush will win the election by a margin of 55% to 38%
>over the nearest challenger.

Bzzzzt.  Not even close.

>2.  The World Series will be decided by a grand slam in
>game six.  The National league will win.

Bzzzzt.  Can't even get the 50-50 ones.

>3.  Yassar Arafat will die in September.

Bzzzzt.

>4.  The Dow Jones industrial average will crack 3500,
>but not until December.

Bzzzzt.

>5.  A volcano will erupt in Japan, killing more
>than 10,000 people.

Bzzzzzt.

>6.  An airplane will crash in San Francisco; a famous
>musical star will be killed.

Bzzzzt.

>7.  Celebrety fun:  Mickey Rourke will go into a coma;
>George Burns will finally die; Madonna will be in an
>automobile wreck.

Bzzzzzt.

>8.  A meteor will strike the moon, leaving a visible
>impact crater.  

Bzzzzzt. (Long shot anyway)

>9.  Fidel Castro will disappear from the public eye in
>Cuba; open revolt will follow.

Bzzzzt.

>10.  A major chemical spill will all but wipe out a
>Michigan town.

AHA!

On June 30, a train derailed, spilling chemicals on
Wisconsin/Minnesota border.  The city of Duluth was
half evacuated.

Okay, so it wasn't "all but wiped out", and the state
was a little bit off, but I'm sure all I need is a
few exaggerated press accounts of this and it could
certainly equal the quality of a Jeanne Dixon claim.
Be sure and tell your friends.

Let's call it a half of a hit.  So, one half of a hit
out of ten predictions gives me a 5% success rate.
Tabloid psychics, eat your heart out.

All in all, I think the problem was that I was entirely
too specific.  This year I'm going to have to be more
Nostradamus-like in my prose, if I'm ever going to give
those new-age wackos something to get all googly-eyed
about.


Mark Schnitzius
schnitzi@eola.cs.ucf.edu
University of Central Florida
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:22011 alt.atheism:24974