From: weaver@jetsun.weitek.COM (Michael Gordon Weaver)
Newsgroups: alt.romance
Subject: Re: LJBF and Happiness
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:56:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: WEITEK Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Aug19.222123.13661@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> jlewis@astro.as.arizona.edu (Jeff Lewis) writes:
>In respone to  <1992Aug17.182327.16695@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> -
>In article <1992Aug19.002926.12237@jetsun.weitek.COM> weaver@jetsun.weitek.COM (Michael Gordon Weaver) write -
>
>>I don't think that by being more selfish you will much affect your
>>chances of a potential SO becoming a SO. If you are in a LJBF
>>situation, then you have made clear to the other person your interest
>>in romance, and so the problem is not that your actions are being
>>interpreted as unromantic.
>
>Thats very true I think I have made it clear how I feel...or think I feel
>and left it pretty much at that..for the time being..I am wondering now if
>by not saying anything more that I have given the impression I don't feel that
>way anymore. *sigh*
>
Yes, you are in a bind. On the one hand, you want to reinforce the idea
that you are romantically interested in this person, but on the other
hand, you cannot express this without stepping out of the bounds of
'just friends'.  If your friend has any sense, she will assume that
you still feel the same way and are muting your feelings for her sake.

You might decide it is more important to be able freely express how you
feel, and decide to back out of the friendship. Or you can act with
restraint and only express those aspects of your feelings that are
consistent with friendship, such as being interested in the other
person, wanting to be helpful, etc. Neither choice is very attractive.

>>On other hand, being un-selfish will likely increase your chances of getting a LJBF,
>>because you will be more likely to continue on in a relationship with someone who is not
>>responding romantically.
>
>
>The point is I do things for ALL my friends...if I have money..and they don't..and we
>want to do something we do it...and they do the same in return when and if they can.
>I don't keep track of who paid when..I think its silly to keep score with people who
>are suppose to be your friends and who's company is the most important thing. I think
>this is true if they are a romantic interest or not. It seems when you throw romance
>into the picture..sensabilities get waaay the hell outta wack...and _THAT_ I don't understand
>a bit.
>
Well, remember that unless your friend knew you well before you
expressed an interest in romance, she will not be able to tell if is
just the way you act normally, or the just the way you act around her.
People in love have been known to act in extreme and irrational ways,
so if someone knows or thinks you are in love with them, they may
worry that parts of your behavior that seem unusual to them may
indicate that you are starting to act irrationally. You may want
to push the idea that this is the way you are, but of course you
will have to do it through actions, as arguing that you are 
won't convince her.

>>You cannot force someone to be happy, but the flip side of this is that
>>you cannot depend on someone else to ensure your happiness.  Only you
>>can be responsible for your happiness. This is not because other people
>>are selfish and uncaring, but because no one understands your needs
>>anywhere near as well as you do.
>
>This is fine in theory...but it is sure not so easy to understand my own needs
>and being responable to those around you for your happiness may not be such
>a bad thing...if you don't allow someone to make you happy then you run the
>risk of shutting yourself off and being alone.
>
When I say 'be responsible for your own happiness', I don't mean you
should decide to be happy by avoiding contact with other people.
Rather, I mean you must be the one who is monitoring whether or not you
are happy, and making the big decisions about what you need to be
happy.  E.g., I cannnot scratch my own back as well as someone else
could, but someone else cannot tell when I want my back scratched
unless I know that I do and I express it.

>
>>There is nothing wrong with enjoying making someone else happy. The
>>problems come when you take on responsibility for someone else's
>>happiness, or expect someone else to take responsibility for your
>>happiness....
> 
>If you are in a relationship, how can you _not_ be responsible for
>your SO's happiness..you sure can be blamed for making them unhappy..I think
>that a certain amount of responable action in this area is very important to
>makeing a realationship work and grow.
> 
Good point. In a romantic relationship, you have obligations, including
helping your SO be happy.  But you are not responsible for making them
happy, because only they can make themselves happy.  On the other hand,
a LJBF friend is a friend and you are not obligated to them in this
way.

>>...Feeling responsible for someone else's happiness can cause
>>you pain, especially if the other person is not ready or unwilling to
>>have you interfere with their life....
> 
>I tend to agree on this point a little.  Your right..you cannot force your
>good intentions on someone..but you need to make it clear that you are
>there for them..whenever, and for whatever they need no questions asked its
>part of being a friend and more a part of being a SO. I have been called
>a chump more than once for this attitude..I just don't ask my true friends
>why they need a favor..and there are those that think I am being taken
>advantage of.
>
This (being there for them...) is a reasonable attitude for a friendship.
But in a friendship, you expect your friend not to take more than they are
ready to give. A friendship is a relationship of mutual convenience.
In a romantic relationship, there is also need for balance, but not
in this way. In a romance, you need to balance your needs with those
of your SO, and doing what you think your SO wants with what is good
for them.

As for being a chump, if you feel like a chump, then you are. Otherwise
forget it. As long as you are not being fooled into thinking you are
going to be rewarded for your generousity when you are not, what 
difference does it make?

>>So if you want to try to make someone happy, by all means go ahead.
>>But remember you will be making the other person feel vulnerable,
>>and you need to be sensitive to this. And you need to be prepared
>>for your effort to be rejected without feeling personally rejected.
> 
>How can you possibly be prepared for reject without taking it personally?
>The very nature of rejection is aimed at the individual themselves..It
>_Always_ hurts....and it hurts that much more when you have very strong
>feelings for the other person...I am being to think that maybe my definition
>of friendship and romance is skewed.
> 
Number one is to remember that it is not you that is being rejected, it
is your effort that is being rejected. Generally, people will not
reject you unless they are foolish or unless you push them into a
situation where they feel they have no choice. When possible, avoid
putting yourself in a situation where the other person must choose
between doing what you want or rejecting you.  Rejection doesn't hurt
(much) if you understand it is because of the other persons fears and
weakness rather than because you are undesirable.

>It seems that I have been put into a situation of walking a very fine line
>between being a `silly overly romantic dreamer` and a chump.
> 
If you feel like you are walking a fine line, you probably are doing a
good job. If everything seems easy, you probably could do better, and
if you feel like you are hitting your head on a brick wall, you are
probably trying too hard. You call it a balance between being a dreamer
and a chump, I would call it a balance between being true to yourself
and being practical.

Peace,
Michael.