HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm reloading question
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:35:36 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

bigdog@bones.et.byu.edu (Dan Canfield) writes:

#Just a quick question.  My brother and I have 9mm semiautos.  His
#is a Beretta and mine a Taurus.  We have both reloaded before, but
#not 9mm, primarily rifle ammo and some .357 stuff.  I have read 
#a couple of sections in reloading manuals about reloading for the
#9mm and feel like I am ready to try it.

#My question is what powder is a good on to work with.  We are going
#to reloading 124gr. jacketed ball ammo for plinking.  I am just
#curious as to which powder of the several each reloading manual uses
#I should try.  What ones have you had success with.

	I've only tried two: Bullseye and Unique.   U is smokey and
sooty, and much weaker.  BE is much cleaner: less smoke, minimal 
soot, and gives good velocities with small powder charges.  I use
the same 4.6 gr BE (lee scoops, I don't bother using a scale for 
mild plinking ammo), for 9mm with 115, 122, 125, or 147 gr cast or
jacketed bullets, and for .45 ACP with 225 gr or 160 gr cast bullets.
They all work just fine and are clean.

BE is the fastest burning powder there is, and the cleanest burning
from what some other reloaders have told me.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: rec.guns
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:16:10 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

tayloe@marble.rtsg.mot.com (Dan Tayloe) writes:

#I am currently selling my Glock 22
#in order to buy a pistol that would be capable of sub 1" groups at
#25 yards, preferably in 45 ACP, and can still be used for home defense.
#The problem is that I don't know what it will take to do this ($$$).

Jennings .25 cal.  $55.   Just kidding.

	What kind of groups do you get with the Glock 22?

JD
From: bashiti@newton.emba.uvm.edu (Abbas J Bashiti)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Taurus...
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:23:44 GMT
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility


     Well, just got a new toy and I thought i'd post a little commentary to
the net.  The history is I had a 6" S&W 586 for years.  I had been shooting/
using it very little lately since its a really big gun, and I got into
.45's as carry guns.  Anyway, I was "window shopping" yesterday and bumped
into a pretty nickel Taurus model 65 fixed sight .357 mag.  I couldn't 
resist the beatiful finish, and the trigger was the best i'd ever felt on
a Taurus.  The trigger was almost up to S&W standards.  The gun also seemed
perfect for my fience, so I traded the S&W for the Taurus and a couple boxes
of ammo.  Probably not the best trade, but not too bad either since I got
a gun i'll probably shoot a bit.  The gun also came with nice Pachy grippers,
factory grips, manual, box, and a speedloader.
     Well, overall the gun is beautiful.  That finish caught my eye and 
just sold itself.  I wish my SIG looked that good.  The sights are a bit hard
to see, also being plated.  I wish they were black like my S&W 625, but you
can't have everything, and I like them better then the WO RR on the 586 I
traded.  
     I took the gun out to shoot it right from the range.  I wanted to shoot
it fast since the lockup wasn't the tightest i'd seen and I was afraid the
gun would either spit or shoot horribly.  The guy assured he'd make it right
if that was the case, and he sold the gun in the first place so he'd just
send it back to Taurus.  
     Anyway, on the range we just set a target out about 30 ft, and started
shooting.  I know that's not too far, but it was plenty far for me.  I was
amazed, the gun shot right to point of aim.  Myself and my friend shot
the gun and both shot to the same point.  It also shot nice tight groups.  We
didn't measure them, but I was hardly disappointed either.  I'd say two inches,
and we were freezing cold out there in a 10 deg. wind chill without gloves.
On a nice indoor range (wish we had one in this state), i'm sure  it would
shoot even better.  The trigger was as nice as in the store, and set off every
round except a single round of a friends dubious reloads with 10 year old
primers.  The hits were nice and deep and i'm sure it wasn't the gun.  
     For my first Taurus i'm impressed.  I don't think there are any more i'd
buy, unless they come out with some kinda .45 ACP.  I also don't regret
the trade.  I got a gun we might get some more use out of, and is absolutely
beautuful.  I'd say for the price they're getting the Taurus is a deal...

later,
AJ
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: dealing with a police officer
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:19:54 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <viking.724471309@vincent2.iastate.edu>, viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
# 	I have gotten a fair amount of mail on this, and the net
# concensus is that, should I leave Iowa, I should roll down the
# tinted window, turn off the motor, and keep my hands on the top
# of the steering wheel.
# 
# 	And to think, I was once excited about leaving Iowa for
# some place with a bit of excitement!  On second thought, you can
# all keep your excitement, and I'll keep the polite cops.
# 
# < Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >

"Excitement" = crazy people trying to shoot cops.  It makes them
nervous.

I ALWAYS have both hands on the wheel when a cop approaches me after
a traffic stop.  After watching night traffic stop training exercises
at the police academy here in Sonoma County, I perfectly understand
why cops get so irritated when you give them anything out of the
ordinary at night.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
From: hacker@coos.dartmouth.edu (Fred L. Hacker)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: need magazine for Savage .22 NRA (1919?)
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:12:43 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

Please contact Fred L. Hacker@dartmouth.edu with price, condition ,
and availability.  Thanks!
From: kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ron Shirk's :-(
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:20:40 GMT
Organization: Natural Order Nature Experiments (N.O.N.E.)


I received two magazines that I ordered from Ron Shirk's and I was not
pleased when one could not feed the rounds at all and the other jammed.
Now this is not the fault of Ron Shirk's, but there attitude was not
what I expected from all of the positive responses I got from the
many of you out there. In fact I did not get one negative response.
They said that I had to deal with the manufacturer. I asked about
just returning them and the manager said fine, but there would be
a *restocking* charge. Does this mean that they would put them back
in stock?

After this experince I would doubt that I will do business with them
again. I don't like the payment choices which make it easier for them
to say "tough luck" and I really don't like them saying that I have
to deal with the crap that they sold me. Most reasonable places will
exchange the items and then they will deal with it.

Maybe I expected too much for the cheap prices.
-- 



						 Kemasa.

Insanity is the best defense.

Sierra Club Leader	NRA Life Member		Pro-freedom	Pro-choice

e-mail address: kemasa@ghost.hac.com
From: hruo@ncrclm.clemsonsc.NCR.COM (Hiro Ruo)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Transporting guns on planes
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:23:48 GMT
Organization: NCR E&M CLEMSON Liberty, SC


they don't usually Xray bags for DOMESTIC flights if they're checked in, but
they DEFINITELY DO for some international flights.  I know they did at the
Munich Airport.

Hiro.Ruo@ClemsonSC.NCR.COM
From: Ole-Hjalmar.Kristensen@delab.sintef.no
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Superiour revolvers (was: Re: Smith & Wesson Autos)
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:15:41 GMT

Less than half the price of the 73, that makes it very iteresting
indeed. What are the prices in Switerland at the moment?

My S&W 586 cost me about NKr 4300, and a MR-73 costs about NKr 11500
here in Norway. If the price of the MR-93 is about half of that, I
could hope for a price of 5500. That is not much more than the 586.

Only problem is that the Norwegian police have this strange ide that you do not
need more than one gun in each caliber. If you want more than one, you
will have to show some specific reason. I might be difficult to sell
them the idea that I need both a 6" 586 in .357 and a 5"? MR-93 in
.357 :-)

The primary reason for getting a MR-93 would be a (presumably) better
trigger, along with the satisfaction of owning something which is a
bit more carefully built. I use my 586 mostly for competitions where
speed is more essential than accuracy, so a good trigger is very
essential. It is not IPSC, but something which is essentialy the
military or UIT large bore pistol "feltskyting" (field shooting?)
program (60 shot, 10 different stations, multiple targets at something
like 10 - 50 meters, shooting time 5 - 12 seconds for 6 shot), but
shot with a revolver instead of a pistol. Revolver scores are usually
slightly lower than with the auto pistol, but not by much. I usually
shoot this with .38 special loads, there is no need for magnum loads
here. 

An interesting local variation is the magnum version of the above,
where .357 or .44 magnum loads are mandatory, and the distance is
increased to typically 50 - 100 meters. The shooting time is also
increased, and is typically more like 30 - 60 seconds. Now accuracy
becomes more important, but my 586 is entirely sufficient; with iron
sights, short time and no sandbags, it shoots much better than me. A
better trigger would of course be an advantage here too.

Ole-Hj. Kristensen



"If you are going to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
		    -- Il Bruto
From: hays@SSD.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need help identifying a Smith
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:08:27 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <168BECAA1.DHBHM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>, DHBHM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu (Bruce H. McIntosh) writes:
|> 
|> I've fallen heir to a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver.  It has a fairly large
|> frame, 6-round cylinder and a 1-1/2" or 2" barrel.

Nominally, 2.5 inch.  The measurement is from the face of the cylinder to the
front end of the barrel.

|>  Stamped on the frame
|> underneath the arm that carries the cylinder is the notation:
|>  
|> Mod 10 - 5

A model 10, variation number 5.  The variations mean different things, depending
on the model.  There is a nice chart in Roy Jink's book (the title escapes me),
reproduced in the _Gun Parts Catalog_, which summerizes the variations.

It can use the same aftermarket grips as any other S&W K-frame, like the M13, the
M15, or the M19.  I'm partial to Hogue Monogrips, the rubber ones, for a gun like
this.

You'll also need to specify whether it is a "round butt" or a "square butt", as
both are common.

|> I did some informal plinking with it the other day and was rather surprised
|> at how accurate it was, given the miniscule barrel.  Would there be any
|> advantages as far as accuracy goes in having a 'smith put a longer barrel
|> on the gun?  

It can be done, but the cost is a significant portion of buying another gun. 
Barrels run $80-$120, depending on model and length, and then you must pay the
gunsmith.

|> I'm assuming that all one needs do to swap the barrel is drive
|> out the pin, switch the barrel and drive in a new pin.  Am I wrong about this?

Yes.  I can describe the entire procedure, if you like, but it isn't that simple.

I've done dozens in the last 30 years, and it takes some skill and the proper
tools.  Doing it without the tools, this modification can result in warped
frames, canted front sights, scarred cylinders, lead spitting, etc.  I've been
told Jerry Kunhausen's (sp?) book about S&W revolvers gives a good procedural
rundown, although I haven't seen it yet.

Everyone should have at least one 2.5 inch .38 - don't mess with it.

"Never sell a gun you can shoot well."

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
Xref: sparky rec.guns:17955 talk.politics.guns:25107
From: robert_walton@NeXT.COM (Robert Walton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Question on French Gun Laws
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:19:39 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns


A friend of mine has been asked to consider a possible move to Paris for a  
couple of years as an ex-pat.  I suspect he will have trouble taking any  
of his firearms with him, but I have no knowledge of French laws, or EC  
laws if they exist on this topic.  Anybody out there know what firearms  
can and can't be brought into France by a full-time ex-pat resident, and  
in Paris in particular?  Comments on shotguns, rifles, and handguns,  
nultiple actions, needed.

Replies appreciated,

Robert

robert_walton@next.com
From: robert_walton@NeXT.COM (Robert Walton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Skeet and Sporting Clay
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:08:40 GMT



In article <9212060831.AA08032@u36.kwnet.on.ca> sp@u36.kwnet.on.ca (Sean P  
Goggin) writes:
# 
# The device is a rigid pouch containing 40 rounds, the rounds drop
# out the bottom in twos at the correct angle so that they can be 
# rapidly loaded. It is worn over the shoulder and hangs on the
# loading side at waist level.
# 
# I don't think there is a similar device on the N.A. market...


Actually, there is exactly such a device advertised in several shotgun  
magazines already, so I would tell your friend it *was* a good idea...    
:-)
From: earlw@Apple.COM (Earl Wallace)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Denver Police shoot man
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:22:24 GMT
Organization: Bit Flippers, Inc.


#...
#my main question is:  if the police are trained in crisis management (i hope
#they are), and they see this hysterical old lady, why don't they back off /
#take cover and sort things out?  That's my impression what they would do 
#in the northeast (or am i mistaken?)... whereas here in the west they seem
#to draw their guns pretty quick... or do all large city police tend to 
#draw their guns pretty quick?
#...

Yes, the police are quick to draw their guns.  I can't blame them really.
It's just something we are going to have to live with because it's not
going to change.  If someone owns a gun, they should get some real training
on how to use it, the legal issues involved, when you can shoot and when you
can't and what to do when law enforcement arrives.  This is a serious game
of life and death and you must know the rules to stay alive!
From: unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (James Warren)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SK  (Chinese version of AK47)
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:22:32 GMT
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC

#From article <1992Dec11.002409.21121@ennews.eas.asu.edu>, by whetten@enws286.EAS.ASU.EDU (Frank L. Whetten):
# 
# That's SKS.  Can you get a *new* one?  I thought they were all used,
# Chinese army surplus.

I just bought a new one.  Cost was $76 with S&H.

# 
# I wouldn't think they will ever be *too* valuable, if only because
# everybody I know has one (or two).

I think you are right, but I doubt they will drop in value, either.  

I expect that Slick Willie (make that President Slick Willie) will ban the
import of all semi-autos within the next year or two.  If that happens
the value could go up a bit.  That's why I bought it, I really don't care
for centerfire selfloaders.
From: assaf@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: crossbow advice?
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:54:38 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska

In article <Uf8wSKu00Uh7A7ApI_@andrew.cmu.edu>, kiesler+@andrew.cmu.edu (Sara B. Kiesler) writes:
# I apologize in advance for asking about crossbows in this newgroup, but
# thought some of you might be able to help me. 
# 
# For Christmas, I'm buying a disabled relative a crossbow for hunting.  (In 
# Pennsylvania, disabled people can use crossbows during bow season.)  My
# questions are: Can you recommend a brand and model that would get me an
# accurate, not-too-heavy crossbow that would be suitable for deer
# hunting? I
# saw one in a store and it was really heavy.  I saw some in a catalog and no
# weights were listed.  Also the prices ranged from $199 to $360 and I could not
# tell what contributed to the difference in price. 
# 
# Can you help?
# Thanks very much, Sara
# 
Barnett Wildcat XL are light aluminum with a decent powered recurve bow
From: UC390136@mizzou1.missouri.edu (JON HALL)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Info wanted:  Browning BDM
Date: 20 Dec 92 01:25:28 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri

Does anyone have any experience with or opinions about
the Browning BDM? Is the Pistol Mode/Revolver Mode feature
anything more than something a marketing-type dreamed up?
Is this Browning's attempt at a "new" wondernine, one to
keep a place in the market, until they think of something
better?
 
All I've read about it are brief mentions in various gun
magazines. All they say is it's a double-mode, narrow-
framed, high-capacity 9mm autoloader. I've seen no reviews
(If you know of any reviews, please let me know. I'm even
willing to send someone a SASE for copies of reviews.)
 
I've also seen the two-page spread in Browning's catalog.
Two local gun shops carry the BDM, but neither has had much
experience with it nor have they heard anything from
the one or two customers who have bought one.
 
Is the gun reliable? Accurate? How would you rate it WRT
SIGs, Berettas, Glocks, etc.? How does it like different
kinds of ammo? How does the narrow frame feel, when you fire
it (aiming, recoil, etc.). Workmanship? Material? Low-/
high-maintenence? Mediocre?!
 
Right now, I'm leaning toward the Beretta 92FS-series.
The SIG is good, but lacks a true safety. The Glock isn't
a SIG, and just doesn't cut it, aesthetically (No flames,
please. :-) ).
 
Thanks in advance.
 
-Jon Hall
uc390136@mizzou1.missouri.edu
From: pfloyd@titan.ucc.umass.edu (BlackWing Restorations, Ltd.)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: S&W Auto/Glock 21 jam-free
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:19:01 GMT
Organization: Old Pink, care of the Funny Farm, Chalfont

#|> Another story...
#|> 	The S&W M76 submachinegun fires from an open bolt. I once saw
#|> a film of someone dropping the gun on its stock while fully loaded...
#|> the bolt cycled back, loaded a round, and when the bolt came forward
#|> again, it started firing... on full auto... talk about a depressingly
#|> stupid weapon...
#A problem common to most, if not all, open-bolt submachineguns.
#They're made for "cheap" and "effective", not "safe."


True... the Ingram MAC-10 was designed as open bolt, wasn't it? Then
again, isn't the Uzi an open bolt? That's a very effective and
not-as-cheap-as-you-think submachinegun... and very safe if its own
right... 

I could be wrong... my books are not with me at this time...

pf


-------------===========**********===========-------------
	       BlackWing Restorations, Ltd.
            Investigations, Personal Security
               and Restorations a specialty

     Can be reached via the following Internet address:
		pfloyd@titan.ucc.umass.edu

No case to easy, no fee too large, no ammunition expenditure
too gratuitous. no body count too high... call now for an
inexpensive consultation.
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9x18 Makarov
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:08:09 GMT


Southern Ohio Gun is currently advertising 3 natures of Makarov ammo:

Norinco, steel case, allegedly noncorrosive
"European", brass case, noncorrosive
"European", brass case, boxer primed noncorrosive

the first two being Berdan primed obviously.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Denver Police shoot man
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:12:36 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1992Dec9.162812.16333@den.mmc.com> hobbes@spacemanspiff.den.mmc.com (Stephen Camp) writes:
#It seems to me that just pointing a firearm at or in the direction
#of a police officer in the state of Colorado invites the police officer
#to shoot you.

Pointing a firearm at X, in any geographic location, justifies X in
shooting the pointer immediately, and if X doesn't do so he's risking
serious injury or death.

#It also seems that in cases that have been covered in the press that
#sometimes the police don't even issue a warning before firing.

In such a situation there is not time to waste giving warnings.
Warnings are for situations where immediate action is not required.

#Can I as citizen, shoot someone in self defense (without any warning) simply
#because somebody is pointing a gun at me?  how about gun is pointing towards
#me, maybe not right at me, but in my general direction, such that it would
#be fairly easy for the other person to shoot at me?
#do some states require that the other person shoots first, before
#I can fire in self-defense?

You need to check your local laws, but everywhere I know of anybody is
justified in using deadly force to defend himself in circumstances where
a reasonable person would believe himself to be in immediate danger of
death or grave bodily harm.  When somebody is aiming a firearm at you,
a reasonable person would assume that the other person intends to shoot.
Under the circumstances immediate action is called for.

There is no special application of this principle to police, except
perhaps that they can expect to be specifically targeted by criminals.
From: kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: *Nice* ranges are a myth?
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:16:14 GMT
Organization: Natural Order Nature Experiments (N.O.N.E.)


In article <lairdb.723858257@crash.cts.com> lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:
#...
#Anybody found one yet?  What's the nicest range you *have* seen?  What
#would you *want* at a range that you don't have today?  (For example,
#I'd like to have the gadgets that make the carrier stop at the pre-set
#distances.)

I've been to the Beverly Hills Gun Club and although it is nice (it is
not in Beverly Hills), it is not all that much more expensive than the
range that I normally go to. They had a TV, nice places to sit, etc.,
but the question comes as to why you go to a shooting range. I would
have to look at the movie again, but I don't think this is the same
place, but it is featured in a NRA video.

Once you get into the range it is really not that much different than
the normal place that I shoot. The only reason that I went there was
because I wanted to try a gun that they had. They let you shoot
anything if it is a pistol round that is used (Colt Sporter (9mm),
Thompson, etc.).

I care more about ventilation than a couch, but I admit that it is nice
to have a bench to sit on when you are waiting for someone else to
finish shooting.

It would be nice to have a carrier stop!!! One range I have been to
had hand cranks for moving the targets. I suppose you could count the
turns it takes to get to where you want it.
-- 



						 Kemasa.

Insanity is the best defense.

Sierra Club Leader	NRA Life Member		Pro-freedom	Pro-choice

e-mail address: kemasa@ghost.hac.com