HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zebee@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Illegal targets (was: period fighting styles)
Date: 25 Jan 93 22:55:42 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
NNTP-Posting-Host: wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au

bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) writes:


>As I understand it, in Caid if a blow is intentionally blocked with the hand
>the arm is lost.

The West also outlaws "target substitution"


>I find the wording of the statement that "the hand, knee, and lower leg 
>armour are considered proof against all attack" confusing.  Do they realise 
>that the rules lawyers amongst the fighters have started blocking with their 
>hands because within the terms of the SCA game hands are invulnerable?  I far 
>favour the Caidan version.

As far as I am concerned, the fighters who block with their hands are
not "playing the game", and the other fighters should deal with it in
the same way they deal with rhinohiding: talk to the offenders, if that
doesn't work, involve the marshallate.

Educate, don;t legislate.  That is the key.  And don;t just whinge about
someone, talk to them and if that doesn;t work, escalate it.

And if someone insists on being a bush lawyer, then they have a real
chivalry problem.  Deal with it like any other chivalry problem.

Oddly enough, I haven't seen this problem in S&S fighters much at 
all, but polearm
and greatsword types are incredibly prone to it.  Many times have I been
marshalling a fight and heard the thump of rattan on hockey glove (or
the clunk of ratan on steel) rather than the clack of ratan on rattan.

>there because it looks good and gives better real-life protection, right?  
>And basket hilts weren't found in any significant numbers until late in 
>period?  (I'm waiting to be corrected on this one -- I may well be wrong.)  

Started to appear around 1500, and got quite common as the century
progressed.  BUt usually only found on civilian swords, not military
weapons, as military types were wearing hand armour, and didn;t need the
hilt to provide protection.

Silfren



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills....
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Illegal targets
Date: 28 Jan 93 11:27:53
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
	<728030197snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz>
	<1993Jan26.171631.21576@colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: klosky@debussy.Colorado.EDU's message of Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:16:31 GMT


klosky@debussy.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE ) writes:
] Jennifer Geard writes:
]
] ]Good my lord, I'm slightly embarrassed to ask -- what is the nature of this 
] ]"don't aim for the groin" rule?  Is it something other kingdoms include in 
] ]their rules?  Is it one of those things a new fighter is told by the older 
] ]fighters upon induction into fighterhood?
]
] It is certainly the latter.  Nobody likes to get hit there, so the easiest
] thing to do is instruct new fighters to never aim there.  I've rarely seen
] anyone hit there on purpose.  I would venture to guess that that is the
] convention in all kingdoms, sort of an unwritten law.  I will of course be
] corrected if I am wrong in this assumption.

Actually, I've been taught it depends on the weapon. For Daggers, for
example, only the face, armpits and groin are legal targets. Similarly,
for Short Sword w/ Thrusting Tip, even tho the entire body is legal, it's
hard to get people to feel a thrust to many places, and as with dagger
the face, armpit and groin are the best targets for a thrust. Short
spears (i.e. one-handed thrust-only ones) are like this too.

The fine point here may be between swings, two-handed thrusts, and 
one-handed thrusts. The first two can deliver enormous power to a
blow, and doing so to a groin would be a cruel thing to do to
a friend (and we're all friends on the field, right?). But a
one-handed thrust doesn't deliver the same impact.
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: pols055@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Calling Baltimore
Date: 24 Jan 93 22:31:25 GMT
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

Good people, I must again ask your assistance in a matter of research.

A lady here wishes to contact someone in Baltimore (maryland?) who could go to
an Art gallery and get her a copy of a painting held therein. Anyone who would
be able to do this and willing also should send me their snail mail address
which I will pass on to her.

My thanks on her behalf,

Eleonora van den Bogaerde, Southron Gaard, Caid.
Simone Hindin, Christchurch, New Zealand.
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: antipathy to fencing
Date: 26 Jan 93 04:47:34 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <19673@mindlink.bc.ca> Colin_Hart@mindlink.bc.ca (Colin Hart) writes:
>Don Danulf and others have talked about helms looking period and Fencing
>masks not. I couldn't agree more. However,last September Crown fought up in
>the Barony of Borealis in Avacal His MAjesty Darius and Her Majesty Jacintha
>for the first time had lists for the Queens Champion of the Rapier. the man
>who won had a mask custom built into a nice period (looking anyhow, I am many
>things but not a costume expert!) floppy hat. It was legal and looked great!
>it really enabled one to better use the imagination and "not see the face
>protection at all". The gentleman in question lives either in Montengarde or
>Borealis so perhaps Carlus could ferret out further info for all concerned.
>Colin Mackay of Balmaghie, Heavy Fighter, Fencer and Archer amongst tooo many
>other things!:-)

The gentle who won was Baron Artemis, of Blath an Oir, but the
rest of this message is correct. It has become common practice
for fencers in AnTir to build custom masks which are less
obtrusively OOP.

Perhaps one of these people can be talked into writing an
article for TI?

Carolus Malvoix
Go ahead, make my day...
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: guth@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (G.Guth)
Subject: Re: Bee yay ay-zoo, Monte Pythonem
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:48:58 GMT

In article <1k4tliINN8f3@digex.digex.com> dickeney@access.digex.com (Dick Eney) writes:
>Bee yay ay-zoo dom-ee-nay, dough-na ay ees requi-em is a pretty
>good "ear transcription" of an actual Church-Latin chant:
>
>Beatae Jesu dominae, dona (etes?) requiem
>
>Blessed Lord Jesus, give (us?) peace(ful rest)
>
It is, actually, the last two lines of the Dies Irae sequence, from the
requiem mass, which read:

Pie Jesu Domine
Dona eis requiem.  Amen.

and means, 

Holy Lord Jesus,
Grant them rest.

The sequence was an important part of the RC funeral mass, until Vatican II
(I believe).  Most requiem masses composed include the sequence (A few, like
Gabriel Faure's, have only part).  I understand that it was composed by Irish
monks (although I'm not sure when.  The piece is probably about 1000 years old)

Richard Britnell of Salisbury.
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Narrow-focus events
Date: 23 Jan 93 20:26:18 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Charles the Clerk asked about 
medium-focus events:

>But, I have a question.  What would be the benefits and disadvantages of a
>medium-focus event as compared either to the usual broad-focus events, or
>to one of these narrow-focus events?  By medium focus, I am thinking of
>something like, "England, France or the HRE, during the Crusader period,"  
>"Italian Renaissance," or "East Asia, 1200-1450."

I think it's one of the neater versions of the "play slightly differently
for a day" ideas.  It isn't as much work as the very narrow focus events,
makes "visitors" less conspicuous, is easier to maintain, and still has
most of the virtues of the narrow focus events.  (I don't think even
these can become the rule, for the same reasons that the narrow-focus
events can't, though the problems accrue more slowly.  But I do think
they are a neat alternative, that can add to our variety.)

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: JBrandt@AAA.Uoregon.EDU (Pegasus)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: awarding awards
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Date: 28 Jan 1993 00:42:04 GMT
Organization: The Polyhedron Group
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: fp1-dialin-4.uoregon.edu

In article <1993Jan27.212611.36074@watson.ibm.com>, mittle@watson.ibm.com
(Josh Mittleman) wrote:
> 
Write the Crowns and recomand those who you think are worthy of reward. 
Invite the incoming royality when they take the thrown to attened one of
you events.
Above all write, write, write, bury them in paper, have you groups officers
write their supperiors about worthy canditates. write, write, write, If the
crowns change write again, letters of recomdation may not be transfured
from one reign to the next.

Pegasus
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: Medieval women
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:36:05 GMT


Greetings to all, from Vajk!

At this time I wish to request the assistance of those
here assembled in a matter with which I am but marginally
acquainted.

I recently picked up the 1993 "Medievel Women" calendar,
and the text for January reads, in part:

   "Christine de Pisan (1365-c.1431), the best known and
    most influential woman writer of her day, ..."

There are several works about women writers of the Middle
Ages with which I am acquainted, but I would like to take
this project to its limits.  If any of you have information
or even just a name of any woman writer who lived from
600-1450, could you please e-mail to me that name, and any
information which might help me find out more about the
woman?  Or post the info if you think it of interest.

Thank you in advance.

Vajk
ae766@ysub.yfn.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: klosky@cage.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE )
Subject: Re: Psuedo-illegal targets (was Re: Illegal targets (was period 
Reply-To: klosky@cage.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE )
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:48:57 GMT

Dennis O'Connor writes that he is concerned about damage to hands of
non-S&S types if hands become a legal target.  This is a very legitimate
concern, but I would like to make the following points:

1)  If, like the groin, the hand is a legal but not-aimed-for target, then
the result should be no more hand strikes then are already occurring.  Less
hand hits may actually occur, since many pole or great sword styles I have
 seen actually interpose the hands to block blows, particularly leg blows.
Few seem to forget the don't aim for the groin rule, even in the heat of big
melees.

2)  I thought that everybody playing at non-S&S styles was required to have
something better than hockey gloves, specifically, a continuous metal or
hard leather plate accross the fingers.  Any marshals with a comment on
the use of hockey gloves alone for finger protection?

3)  Whatever protection people are currently wearing should be able to 
withstand a full-force blow to the fingers. Sounds extreme, but it is not
safe to go onto the field with your trust in speed and skill only; IMHO, hand
armour must meet that standard to be safe.

==================================================================
Otto the Obscure                       klosky@bechtel.Colorado.EDU
Caer Galen, Outlands
     -and-
Ledlie Klosky, Student
Boulder, Colorado
==================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: awren@st6000.sct.EDU (Alan Wren)
Subject: A quest!
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:41:05 GMT

Greetings fare people!
   I am new to the list here, but have already found it to be quite interesting!
I started with the SCA about a year ago, but had to move away to school before I was able to make too many contacts....  I was wondering if anyone from the Atlanta Georgia area was on the list here... (Barony of the South Downs) particulary in the area of Owl's Nest...

thanks to you all in advance...


Morgan MacAllister
wandering Celt...

awren@st6000.sct.edu
From: nomad@network.ucsd.edu (Lee Damon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Looking for branch in Savannah GA
Date: 22 Jan 1993 16:04:31 -0800
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: network.ucsd.edu

(Sorry for the wide distribution...)

Unto the Rialto does Chrisopher Thomas, recently of Frosted Hills in
the East Kingdom, send Greetings.

I have recently moved to fair Atlantia, and am looking for names/addresses
for local contacts in what is mundanely called Savannah, GA. If anyone
could be so kind as to provide me with such, I would be most grateful.

Christopher Thomas         mka Lee Damon
somewhere, Atlantia            Savannah, GA
-- 
                                         - Lee "nomad" Damon -         \
play: castle!nomad or nomad@castle.org                                  \
                                                                       / \
      U N A S H A M E D                                               /   \
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: jmedward@eos.ncsu.edu (JEREMIAH M EDWARDS)
Subject: Re: body painting
Originator: jmedward@c00425-313mn.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: jmedward@eos.ncsu.edu (JEREMIAH M EDWARDS)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:16:23 GMT


Try Woad!!

Gaelan MacCuinneagain
Elvegast, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: Illegal targets (was period fighting styles)
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:13:14 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.173643.5216@colorado.edu> klosky@dvorak.Colorado.EDU (Ledlie Klosky) writes:
>As to suggestion #5:
>I think the whole idea of having the hands be an "illegal" target only
>increases the opportunity for injury.  Illegal is often practiced as
>invulnerable, so the hand is actively used by many to block blows.  
>This seems true for all weapons forms, but particularly for sw&sh.
>If the hand were a legal target, then people would make more of an
>effort to keep it out of the way of blows, a much safer practice.
>Further, it is widely agreed that interposing your knee to block a leg
>blow is not allowed and is very unchivalrous.  Why then is it OK to 
>block a head blow with your hand?  Lastly, we already armour our hands
>with the assumption that they will be struck, so why allow multiple
>hand strikes per bout rather than stopping after the first one?

I agree with this heartily.

The only trouble I see is blow strength determination, if we are wearing
enough protective gear to save the hand, such as a basket hilt.  It might
be more difficult to judge a glancing blow off a hilt than off a helm.


Reynard
-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: klosky@bach.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE )
Subject: Re: Wraps and baskethilts
Reply-To: klosky@bach.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE )
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 17:12:42 GMT

Felicity mentions having trouble with self-inflicted bruises on her 
hand caused by her basket hilt on wraps.

I have had this same difficulty myself in the past.  A small piece 
of heater hose on the lower outside bar or edge of the basket greatly
reduces this problem.  Its not to unsightly if you have a black hilt 
and black hose.  Also, your half-gauntlet should stop alot of the impact.
If its not, try padding (VERY thinnly) the inside of the half gauntlet.

Here endeth my two-cents-worth.

==================================================================
Otto the Obscure                       klosky@bechtel.Colorado.EDU
Caer Galen, Outlands
     -and-
Ledlie Klosky, Student
Boulder, Colorado
==================================================================
From: andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy)
Subject: Re: Ranking Performers - Ought We?
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:28:52 GMT

On ranking performers, a true story with a lesson - forgive me if it
rambles a little - there is a point.

  The first time I ever went to a folk club they asked nicely if I wanted
to sing.  Not having ever sung in public (and having been told to shut up
if family or acquaintances heard me), I declined.  That night I heard
people of all skill levels get up and sing in front a group that would
later become some of my closest friends and mentors.  The sense of community
amongst them and the way the music bound them together was truely inspiring.

  The next time I went to the folk club, they found out where I was from
and again asked me to sing.  After that last experience, I decided I would.
That was completely out of character for me.  I requested only that they not
put me after someone who was really good, and was lightly chastised with the
reply "Oh, we don't judge people's performances here."  (Do you feel the
lesson coming? :-)

  I was scared to death, but I got up to sing songs of my homeland, (where
I now live again.)  Their encouraging reactions to and participation in
my songs inspired me greatly, and those moments marked a big change in
my life - in how I thought of myself and defined my purpose in the world.

  Later I went from being someone that people would have payed to have me
shut up, to someone who got payed to sing.  (Some people would still like
me to shut up, but that has nothing to do with my singing :-)  I realised
that some of the singers I appreciated most would be sent packing from
any place that judged its performers for perceived quality.  They might
not sing in tune or with any sort of decent arrangements, but oh!, the
songs they knew, and the tales they could tell.  Before I started to
sing, I would never have sat still long enough to listen to people like
that.  Now I will take them any day over a polished and professional
group that is not in touch with the music they play or the culture behind
it.

  I suspect that if instead of going to the Vancouver Folk Song Society,
I had gone to some organisation that ranked people in some fashion, I would
never have become a singer, or come to appreciate some of the deeper,
most important qualities of songs.

  I'd like to associate more with other musicians in the SCA, but frankly
SCA organisations generally place so much emphasis on ranking that they
turn me off, and they never seem to be organised enough to actually hold
well advertised meetings and otherwise let people know what they do, at
least at Pennsic (where I've tried to seek them out) and through (East)
kingdom and society publications.

  To summarise:  You don't need to rank performers, you need to encourage
them, and to teach people how to better perceive and appreciate performances.

  Ok Sappy, you can go now.

Miklos
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: What is this Group?
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:57:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.184234.2815@epas.toronto.edu> nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <atterlep.727908079@vela> atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez) writes:
>>there isn't all that
>>much for a Rialto household to do.
>
>Nonsense!  It could establish rankings, formalised relationships,
>special badges for each rank and formalised relationship (e.g. Friend
>of a First-Rank Member of the Rialto Household, or Cousin of the
>Household), decide whom to include and whom to exclude, have a hidden
>agenda, pack lunches for events ...  Everything!

What happens when someone exposes our hidden agendas?

(besides us blushing, I mean)

Reynard
(who keeps *his* agenda well-covered)


-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
From: petty8507@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: V'tavian follies
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:35:32 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Greetings to all

Someone mentioned that the _Pikestaff_  requires STREET ADDRESSES for event 
sites before the flyer will be published.  _The Mews_ (Calontir's Newletter, 
where V'tavia is located) also requires street addresses.  Apparantly, 
V'tavia's flyer slipped by.  

I hope the next time you try to visit Calontir, you will have better luck.

Naitan de Yerdeburc
La Grande Tente, Calontir

PS      I've gotten lost in V'tavia a few times, myself.
From: carrot@bear.stonemarche.org (Little red-headed girl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Currach??
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:42:58 GMT


	I believe that Tim Severin recreated one when he tried to find
out if St Brendan could have discovered America. There was an article
about it in a 1977(?) issue of a chidren's magazine called _Cricket_,
(it was one of my favorite magazines as a kid, and it's still around) and
it may have appeared in _National_Geographic_ as well.

			Ceridwen
--
+--------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
|	carrot		   |	carrot@bear.stonemarche.org               |
+--------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ 
|   "Feel what might be. See what I see. Again and again and again and    |
| again say you don't. You say you don't, but you will.                   |
|   "How can you be so near and not see?" -"If You Intend"-10,000 Maniacs |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Subject: Re: Atmosphere?
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
Date: 26 Jan 93 07:18:57 GMT

Greetings, fellow Rialtans. M'lady Angharad posted:

>It just occurred to me, that as often as we appeal to "atmosphere",
>we rarely say where, for each of us, it comes from.  What makes
>for the "flavor" and "atmosphere" of the SCA for the rest of you?
>Inquiring minds want to know....

	The flavor/atmosphere thing is, to me, the setting of an event
and feast. Are most of the people in garb? Do they avoid the
discussing of mundane things? Have the people gracious and generous
enough to run the event tried to cover up any jarring mundanities, or
better yet, selected a site with a period appearance? Is the food
presented victuals that were presented to period Europeans? Are the
dances medieval, as far as we can tell? Then the atmosphere has been
created; see also Tolkien's ideas on "Secondary Creation."

	Perhaps the biggest thing, to me, is the majority of people in
garb and the avoidance of mundane matters. I remain part of the SCA,
in good part, for the escapism-as a history major, the millenium-wide
span does grate somewhat, though I can deal with it. 
--
With a Laurel, it's: "Your place or mine?" With a Knight, it's: "Do you have a 
place?" With a Squire, it's: "Your place, my place or right here?" With a 
Cavalier, it's: "Your place, my place or her place?" 
                                                 -SCA joke 
 
Craig Levin/Pedro de Alcazar, Illiton, MKdm moonman@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca