HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lizalee@leland.Stanford.EDU (Liza L Miller)
Subject: Re: New Proposed Standard for Labradors
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 20:48:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.174221.19756@linus.mitre.org> bds@mbunix.mitre.org (Smith) writes:
>
>As Charlie knows from private correspondence, I think this issue is
>very interesting.  I also think that it may help clear up some
>problems I have had understanding phrases like, "A breeder should
>strive to improve the breed."  (As a case in point, I'd like to know
>if, given a dog of a breed that has longer or shorter hair than the
>breed standard but will clearly outperform the typical member of that
>breed in some essential activity like hunting or tracking, should that
>dog be considered an improvement on the breed, a new breed, or an
>embarrassment to the breed?)  So I would like to see the discussion
>take place in r.p.d, for what my opinion is worth.
>
	I think that the phrase should read:  "A breeder should
strive to improve the breed within the standard."  In otherwords,
improving the breed and preserving the breed are BOTH important goals
for the breeder.  Here's why.  The standard is supposed to be a description
of the ideal specimen of that breed.  A Lab described by the standard should
be the best possible Labrador.  So, theoretically, no one will ever have
that Labrador in their yard (although if they do, they are welcome to
drop him/her off in my yard with the correct AKC paperwork, please! :).
So, each breeder is trying to improve their line to more closely represent
the standard for the breed.  

	That's the way it is supposed to work, anyway.  I'm NOT claiming that
it always does.  There are too many folks out there with the wrong goals,
in my opinion.  I don't think that breeding Labradors for any one purpose
is right whether that purpose is to win shows, get hunt test titles, or
get field championships.  The Lab is supposed to be a dog that looks like
a lab and can hunt well.  It has a certain temperament and a certain look
that are as important to preserve as its hunting ability.  Further, the
considerations of health are just as important as all of the above.  If
you breed the perfect Lab but it goes blind at age 4 because of PRA, you
are NOT improving the breed.

	Well, there's my opinion!

-=lizalee


-- 
Liza Lee Miller         My dogs are labradorable!     liza@leland.stanford.edu
Cibola Labradors            Field * Show * Fun                    415/326-5309
Cibola's Misty Mountain Hop--Hopper                   Mistypoint Kashmir--Kash
	            Campbellcroft Cibola Rosette -- Rosie
From: CBARNES@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Coyotes and dogs
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 09:40:19 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamvm1.tamu.edu

In article <Stafford-110193154556@stafford.winona.msus.edu>
   Stafford@Vax2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (John Stafford) writes:
 
>
>I live way out in the boonies and am taking care of a six
>year old mutt (said affectionately) who is clearly frightened
>of coyotes.  Their howl sends her running to me for saftey.
>
>My question is Are coyotes dangerous to dogs?  Will they
>attack a domestic dog?  (I know that they are extremely
>wary of humans and I've never found their tracks near my
>house.)
 
The short, quick answer to both questions is:  yes.  Coyotes will,
under even normal circumstances, view many domestic dogs as food
and eat them.  On occation, the coyote will be persuaded to do
other things (mate with a bitch in season for example), but those
times are the exception, not the rule.
 
      -----------------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |   President - Bryan/College Station
cbarnes@tamvm1.tamu.edu |         Retriever Club.
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |   "Dedicated to the betterment of
(409) 845-4437 (work)   |               the retrieving breeds"
From: dgraham@simon.Tymnet.COM (Deborah Graham)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: An Anti-Dog Trend Coming?
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:59:57 GMT
Reply-To: dgraham@simon.Tymnet.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems

I believe the anti-dog trend is here!  There is a Best Friends video available
through AKC that reflects AKC's concerns about anti-dog legislation.
---
Deborah L. Graham
UUCP: ![...apple,sun,pyramid]!oliveb!tymix!dgraham
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: morss@ssd.kodak.com (Charlie Morss)
Subject: Too much praise?!?
Organization: Ektron, a division of Eastman Kodak, Co.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 17:49:31 GMT


I've just started reading the Bauman book (recommended in the FAQ)
and came to the chapter on giving praise. She says it's possible to
give to much paise - "Some people will praise their dogs for just
being alive" (or something like that). 

Does this mean that I reserve phases like "Good Boy", etc. only for
lessons or does it mean that I shouldn't be as affectionate with 
my dog in general? And does it make a difference how old the dog is
(mine lab pup is almost 4 months old now)? It seems it would make
a dog like lesson time more if you are only affectionate during a 
lesson, but that seems alittle tough (and I could never get my wife
not to be affectionate all the time, making the dog "like" her much
more than me, thereby, making lessons difficult).

Also, along these lines Bauman states that dogs don't know the difference
between if something is 100% correct or partially correct, but then
she goes on to say that when praising change what you say depending 
on how hard an effort was required (i.e. "good dog" for average effort,
"excellent dog" for an outstanding effort). Is the dog going to 
really know the difference if it is not backed up by physical praise?

I'm wondering how you all handle this praise and affection thing.

Charlie

P.S. I just realized that what a dog is to be "used" for may make a
	 big difference in how praise and affection are handled. My
	 situation is this: 3.5 month Choc. lab, will be a family pet
	 but will also be a hunter - quarter a field, retrieve ("normal"
	 and handled), etc.



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Charlie Morss                               Voice: (716) 726-5461
morss@eksignal.kodak.com                      Fax: (716) 726-4850 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Subject: Re: Goldens as protection?
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Reply-To: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Organization: ICS Dept., UC Irvine
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:58:28 GMT
Distribution: na

In <1ifi64INNpid@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> garyc@vballdude.EBay.Sun.COM (Gary Carino - Osmotic Volleyball) writes:

>eufnlasn@ux1.lbl.gov (elizabeth finlayson) emerged from the Cave of Doom, carrying the holy scrolls <1ife6dINN2sq@overload.lbl.gov> in hand and spoke thusly:

>>again thinking of getting a dog.  Maybe a lab or golden as suggested by
>>the police.

Hm, neither labs nor goldens are suitable protective dogs.
Perhaps the police are just thinking that a large dog in general will
deter a thief.  But they are *NOT* good protective dogs...
as especially illustrated by the following description:

>Summer [a golden] *loves* *everybody*.  Without fail.  At first I
>thought, it must be that whenever we take Summer to meet someone we
>feel good about them so she gets the idea that it's okay.  My wife
>told me of an incident with a door-to- door sales critter who
>basically let himself inside.  No force, just slick sales tactics,
>quick movements and viola!, he's in the house.  My wife tells me she
>was fairly distressed that he was actually in the house *and* that
>Summer was just so doggone happy to see him.

--Cindy
--
Cindy Tittle Moore

Terrell's Chocolate Deduction--Hershe (Labrador Retriever)

The rec.pets.dogs FAQ -- all ten parts -- is available via ftp to
pit-manager.mit.edu under pub/usenet/news.answers/dogs-faq/*.  There
is a mail server, email me for details.

In loving memory of Betsy: 4-10-92 to 8-19-92...
From: ce293@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gail E. Brookhart)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: A good book!
Date: 8 Jan 1993 12:38:25 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ce293@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gail E. Brookhart)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, kte@INEL.GOV (Kathryn L Cook) says:

>In article <1993Jan7.162826.23226@newshost.lanl.gov>, crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby) writes:
>|> Take a look also at _The Old Man and the Dog_.  Sorry, I can't
>|> recall the author either.  It's actually a bit more
>|> anthropormorphic than I normally like (the dog is the narrator) but
>|> it's a good book about field trials (pointing dog variety) and the
>|> author, in addition to providing an "autobiography" of Miss One
>|> Dog, manages to give a pretty good description of the life of a
>|> good (great?) field-trial dog.  This one almost sounds like fiction
>|> but the jacket suggests its the real story.  Give it a look.
>|> 
>|> 
>|> -- 
>|> Best,
>|> 
>|> Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
>|> 	  crs@lanl.gov
>
>A long this same line, I read a book when I was about 8yo that I believe
>was called "CH Dog, Prince Tom".  It was about a Man named Tom who trains
>his Cocker (I think) who is named Prince Tom in obedience and field work.
>P. Tom goes on to win all sorts of OB and Field titles. Seems like it was
>loosely based on fact.  Has anyone ever read this book?
>
>Kayti

I read it when I was about that age too.  It is a really cute little book
and probably did as much as any book to turn me onto dogs.  Very enjoybale
reading and I seem to remember that it was supposed to be factual.

Gail Brookhart

ce293@cleveland.freenet.edu


Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: ALI00JEV@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU (Judith Van Noate)
Subject: Re: lab list??
Organization: UNC Charlotte
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:35:35 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.213650.10445@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
jkjncs@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
 
>
>In article <57uN02ue30xf01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, bws20@duts.ccc.amdahl.com
>(Brian W Simmons) writes:
>>Howdy, all and Happy New Year!
>>
>>A month or so ago Marla Belzowski mentioned there might be a
>>herding mailing list.  Marla, I to email but it bounced consistently.
>>(I used this address, BTW: saavik@mentor.cc.purdue.edu)
>>
>>Anyway, if anyone could provide me with subscription info I would
>>appreciate it.  I could not find it on the Internet list of mailing
>>lists (which did have the golden retriever list).
>
>And is there such a thing as a Labrador retriever list?? If so, please
>e-mail me info.
>
>Also, I recall hearing something once about a list called
>CANINE-L - does anyone know anything about it (and if such a thing
>exists, is it worth joining?)
>
Canine-l is a moderated bitnet list owned by W.K. (Bill) Gorman.
I have been on the list for about a year and think it is great.
There are virtually no flames and flamers really have a hard time.
Everyone is very pro-animal welfare--we discuss many of the same
topics as this list, but I have only been reading this list for
a short while.  We seem to know each other better than the people
on this list, but since I haven't been reading it that long, I may
have the wrong idea about that.  The address is Canine-L at
PSUVM.bitnet.  there is an internet address, but I don't have that
memorized.
Judith
 
>thanx
>
>
>************************************************************
>* jane jackson and murphy b. lab, Am/Can CD, WC, CGC, TDI  *
>* jkjncs@ritvax.isc.rit.edu                                *
>*                                                          *
>* standard disclaimer applies...                           *
>************************************************************
>
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Subject: Re: Breeding info
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:27:47 GMT

In article <2B4CBC1F.724@ics.uci.edu> tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:
= 
= This helps to explain hybrid vigor by the way.  You know, the notion
= that a mongrel, or a cross, is "healthier" than a pure-bred dog.  If
= you take two pure-bred dogs and linebreed them, recessive traits tend
= to be manifested more often because the dogs are both likely to carry
= them.  But if you've done your homework right, it's only one or two
= recessives.  If you breed two unrelated dogs, then it's more likely

Just one comment:  My understanding is that recessive traits can be
bad *or* good.  It is the bad recessives that you want to
eliminate.  In the simple (monogenic) case, if you breed two dogs
with the recessive you guarantee that the pups will have that
trait, be it good or be it bad.


-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov
From: neath@brazil.psych.purdue.edu (Ian Neath)
Subject: Re: Goldens as protection?
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:41:01 GMT

My brother has a 3 year old female lab that is also not a candidate
for outstanding protection dog of the year:  she has barked only twice
in 3 years (so she can bark, she just doesn't) and the worst injury
she could inflict would be a minor bruise from a furiously wagging
tail!

--
      Ian Neath        | There are four kinds of people in this world:
neath@psych.purdue.edu | cretins, fools, morons and lunatics - U. Eco
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: dgraham@simon.Tymnet.COM (Deborah Graham)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Large Breeds Showing Age
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:56:21 GMT
Reply-To: dgraham@simon.Tymnet.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article 4J7@well.sf.ca.us, casey@well.sf.ca.us (Kathleen Creighton) writes:
>
>Life expectancy for the giant breeds (Danes are a "giant breed") is around
>8 years, I think.  Large dogs, like Akitas, are anywhere between 8-12
>years.  There are always *exceptions* and as long as your dog is healthy,
>who knows how long he'll live?


I have had Great Danes for over 12 years. Showing, training, and hopefully some
day breeding them.  They do have very short life spans.  We have found that our
rescued Danes are living longer, and suspect it is because they are less likely
to be line or inbred.  This breed ages very quickly, some lines more than others.
I have a four year old that has totally lost her black mask to grayness.  I am giving
herbs to my six year old who is considered a veteran in this breed.  She has spinal
arthritis.  Good diet, exercise, and a warm place to get out of the cold helps.
Danes can die of bloat as early as 18 months.  I have lost two at 8 years. Our
rescue Danes are living as long as 11 years!

Good luck.
---
Deborah L. Graham
UUCP: ![...apple,sun,pyramid]!oliveb!tymix!dgraham
From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: To Charlie Morss
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:17:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

Charlie,

I sent a rather lengthy reply to your post but the mail came back.
Send me e-mail with a good return address and I'll resend it.


-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov
From: davek@scooter.intel.com (David Karikas)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Goldens as protection?
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:34:31 GMT
Organization: Intel Corp

In article <1993Jan08.163245.84397@uvmark.uucp>, susan@uvmark.uucp (Susan Todhunter - (JWT)) writes:
|> Appearances count.
|> 
|> Our golden, Rusty, is a ninety-pounder who loves people.  He shows visitors
|> how happy he is to see them by jumping up against the screen door and 
|> barking prodigiously.  Friends and family know what this means, and aren't
|> worried.  Strangers seem less sure.
|> 
|> A UPS man, who had just witnessed Rusty's greeting performance, once literally
|> ran from our front door as I opened it to pick up the package, screaming,
|> "Keep that dog away from me!"  Although I don't like to do anything to add
|> to people's fears or dislike of dogs, I preferred that scenario to the one
|> where the UPS man just opened the screen door and walked in, while Rusty
|> was otherwise occupied in the back yard.  (Yes, I do keep the door locked,
|> but I'd forgotten.)
|> -- 
|> 
|>   Susan Todhunter
|>  
|>   Internet: uvmark!susan@merk.com, UUCP: uunet!merk!uvmark!susan

Just reminds me bout a time when my golden and rott were wrestling and crashed
right through the metal portion of the screen door.

Both are 90+ lbs.........

I agree, if a visitor is familiar with Cody (Golden) then no big deal, but
strangers hesitate when they see a big dog peeking through the door.

BTW is anyones goldens nosey?? Mine always peek through windows doors etc..

-- 
Dave Karikas
Intel Corp. Hillsboro, Oregon
davek@scooter.intel.com
From: adelson@clam.rutgers.edu (beth Adelson)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: and a request: picky eater
Date: 6 Jan 93 15:38:19 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

My last GSD was always very picky.  I finally went to a very smart vet
who said "It must not be fun for her to eat (in the sense of it doesn't
make her feel good), let's find out why."

It turned out her pancreas wasn't working and I needed to add enzymes to
her food.  This allowed her, after 5 years of always being underweight
(in spite of oil, broth, etc., etc.) to eat without discomfort.

I'm not saying this is your dog's problem, but I am saying that going
back to the vet and asking for a very thorough work up is worthwhile.
It's terrible to see them get too thin.

Beth
-- 
*kiss**hug**kiss**smooch**kiss**hug**kiss**smooch**kiss*
      More affection than a .sig file should have!!!
*hug**smooch**kiss**hug**hug**smooch**hug**kiss**smooch*
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: shieh@austin.ibm.com ()
Subject: Early Pup
Originator: shieh@racerx.austin.ibm.com
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:45:47 GMT
Organization: IBM Austin


A friend of mine finally found the Austrailian Cattle Dog
of his dreams.  However, he picked it up when it was 4.5 weeks
old.  Yes, I know.  Bad idea.  But, the deed is already done
and there's no going back.  Any suggestions about acclimation?

Sorry if this gets posted twice....
-- 
The views expressed are my own.  They do not represent IBM.
Johnny Shieh (shieh@racerx)	Worker Bee, AIX Field Quality (level 3)
VNET:     SHIEH at AUSVMQ	Internet: shieh@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com
Phone:(512) 838-3357		tie line 678-3357
From: ce293@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gail E. Brookhart)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Is She Done Growing?
Date: 4 Jan 1993 18:05:44 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ce293@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gail E. Brookhart)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, ELAINE_GALLEGOS@f703.n202.z1.fidonet.org () says:

>  A female Lab/Akita cross should top off at perhaps 80lbs.  I think
>the stuff you are feeding her is fine.  Personally, I don't much care
>for Science Diet products, but in fact, just bought a bag of the stuff
>for my new dog.  This is what she had been eating at the breeder's and
>my plan was to switch her over to a different brand in time.
>  What I have against Science Diet is that it is just a lot of
>cornmeal with a big pricetag.  This is also the main ingredient of
>Purina Dog Chow, which in my opinion is as good a food as Science
>Diet.
>  I also kind of wonder about the value to a dog of a low fat dogfood.
> A dog's digestive system, unlike a human's, is short, and designed to
>deal with a higher fat diet than humans.
>--- FMail 0.92
> * Origin: HILLCREST COMMUNITY BBS, SAN DIEGO: HST 619-291-0544 (1:202/703)
>

I seem to recall reading that a dog's digestive system was perfectly fine
with dog food fat content as low as 4% and as high as 50%.  I can't recall
the reference but it would seem to be plausible since a wild canid can
never be too certain when or what the next meal might consist of.

On a related note, my Bouvier has cholesterol problems and so she is on
Science Diet w/d for the restricted fat and higher fiber of it.  My vet
reports that a dog will not develop heart problems related to the high
cholesterol but will instead just be "less healthy" with too much fat in
the diet and the body.  This too would seem to support the idea that a dog
could tolerate a wide range in the fat content of the food.

Just throwing in my thoughts on the topic...


Gail B.
From: mike@nowaksg.chem.nd.edu (Michael George Buening)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: alarm dogs
Date: 8 Jan 93 18:05:22 GMT
Organization: University of Notre Dame

Okay, let me expand just a little on what I was trying to get across.
I have met some pretty non-excited cocker's and I agree that as a breed
perhaps cocker spaniels are not the best watchdog but the whole reason
this thread started was because people are arguing (in a very nice manner
thank you) whether or not Goldens and Labs can be watch dogs and as a general
breed charactistic, they appearantly are not.  The bottom line is in any
breed you will find individuals that are much more protective in nature.
Whether that means that they have a more dominant personality or have a herding
nature or they are just very excitable doesn't really matter.  What matters
is that you have a dog that alerts you to strangers and hopefully would be
theives away.  Just because you have a big dog, if he/she doesn't bark or
make a ruckus then there is no deterent.  If you want a bona fide (sp?)
protection dog then I think you need to seek out a professional trainer/breeder
of such animals and talk with them.  I am guessing that  you will find that
they will probably breed and train dogs such as GSD, Rottie, Dobe or any other
larger dog with specific personalities conducive to such training but not
all of the dogs they will breed will make it as protection dogs because of 
the extreme individual variation that will undoubtedly occur.  Beamer will
bark his head off at any sound he hears whether he thinks I am home or not.
(I have heard him when I am the "stranger" and it sounds pretty viscous)
So perhaps I will modify my previous statement:  I would recommend a cocker
spaniel that acts like Beamer to serve as an alarm dog (and the best friend
you could have) but don't necessarily depend on him attacking a theif if the
do venture into the house.

Mike

-- 
| Michael Buening	         | 
| mike@nowaksg.chem.nd.edu       |
From: bassett@hpcss01.cup.hp.com (Diane Bassett)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 00:55:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: An Anti-Dog Trend Coming?
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs

The San Francisco SPCA mounted an educational and PR campaign to assist renters
in presenting themselves to landlords as responsible pet owners.  At the same
time, they launched a campaign to promote responsible pet owners to landlords
as excellent tenants.  

I am both a landlord and a responsible pet owner, and I allow my tenants to 
have pets.  But they have to meet my stringent rules, and they pay an extra
security deposit.  So far, it's been very successful.
From: Terri_Watson@cs.cmu.edu (Elfling)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Goldens as protection?
Date: 10 Jan 93 20:22:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: ELF.ELF.93Jan10152213
	<64640034@hpcss01.cup.hp.com>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon School of Computer Science

Funny you should mention this.  Tika (Belgian Sheepdog) has learned
that we don't want her to bark in the house, so now, even we we come
home from a long day, she remains quiet.  However, my SO had to work
late one night and didn't get back until 3am.  I almost had a
heart-attack when she pulled me out of a sound sleep with a ferocious
sounding set of barks.  Unfortuantely, since I was awoken so suddenly,
this first thing I did was to yell at her to be quiet - which she
instantly obeyed.  After thinking about it I wondered if I should have
treated her a little better -- I kinda like the idea that she'll warn
me of intruders in the night.  :>

.Terri & Tika
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs