From: ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Date: 8 Oct 92 16:42:08 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <meudczu@Unify.Com> dxs@Unify.Com (Dale R. Shaver) writes:
>In article <casseres-011092095534@missmolly.apple.com> casseres@apple.com (David
> Casseres) writes:
>>
>>I ride sanely, and I obey the REAL rules of the road, i.e. the ones
>>motorists obey.  This means that at stop signs, if I can clearly see that
>>there is no conflicting traffic, I proceed without stopping.  The same
>>applies to red lights when I am turning right.  I signal turns and lane
>>changes when it seems necessary (which is not usual) and when I can safely
>>take one hand off the bars (which is not always).  I also obey the REAL
>>speed rule, which is "go as fast as you can without getting scared."

>Who are you scaring?  The mother with the children in the car who just
>had to slam on the brakes at a green light or coming around a curve,
>because you didn't have the patience or the brains to obey the traffic laws,
>and common courtesy?

Didn't he just say he stops at stop signs if there's conflicting traffic?
That would suggest that your hypothetical mother-with-kids is either
speeding or invisible.  In either case she might get scared, but David
will be dead through no fault of his own.  (That is, he'd just as likely
have been killed if he had come to a complete stop first.)

>>I bring this up, for about the 3rd or 4th time this week, because people
>>are always harping on the stop sign issue.  I'm really sick of being told
>>to stop at all stop signs when in fact nobody else does.

> Nobody else does?  Where do you come off saying something as obviously
> incorrect as this?  You feel the need to rationalize your breaking of
> traffic laws, but don't do it on the back of those of us who respect
> and obey those laws.  

It's never wise to make blanket assertions like David's, even when they're
intended as hyperbole.  But next time you get the chance, take a look at
the way cars treat stop signs.  Look at their wheels, as it's pretty easy
to tell if they come to a complete stop.  Odds are, you'll find that few
cars make a *complete* stop; most slow to 3 or 4 mph, at which speed they
can look around to see if anyone's coming, and then start up again if the
coast is clear.  At least, that's what happens in Palo Alto when I'm paying
attention.  I'd be surprised if Sacto were different, but I could be wrong.

(BTW, there was a study done here about 20 years ago on motorist behaviour
WRT stopsigns.  Something like 85% were found to run them if they could see
that no one was coming, and the average speed at which cars ran them was
11 mph.)

> Whether I'm in a vehicle or a bike, I obey those
> laws to the best of my ability because I know why they were made.

A bike *is* a vehicle.  By the way, how fast do you drive on the freeway?

David was railing at the incessant traffic (of the net kind) from people
justifiably pissed at the morons on bikes who make up their own rules
rather than obey the same (unwritten) set most road users have adopted.
Please, Dale, don't confuse those of us with enough maturity and sense
to responsibly take our place in traffic on bikes with the idiots whose
riding style will see them dead before they've run up 100 miles.  Every
vehicle has its overly visible idiot minority; sadly, the idiots in some
classes of vehicle kill others before killing themselves.

BTW, if your answer to my question on highway speed is "never more than 55"
I'll have to eat my words.  You're a saint, Dale.  You're also a hazzard,
but that's another thread.
-- 
****************************************************************************
Eric House			"My employer doesn't share its opinions with
"Quayle in '94"		   	 me, so I can share only mine with you"
From: frankh@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Frank Hamlin)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 19:49:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist...
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Rosa, CA