Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hellas
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 20:22:21 EDT
Reply-To:     L Irakliotis <IRAKLIOT@MIAMIU.BITNET>
From:         L Irakliotis <IRAKLIOT@MIAMIU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ekpaideusn kai oi deka kardivalioi
Comments: To: "YORGOS M. MALTAS" <GEORGE@UMBC.BITNET>

On Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:03:00 EDT YORGOS M. MALTAS said:

>Dev avaferomai stov akadnmaiko kosmo Lewvida kai to 3ereis!
>Eseva sto Gumvasio/Lukeio dev sou divav sugkekrimeva biblia apo ta
>opoia eprepe va diabaseis gia va peraseis, KAI ME KALO BA0MO, tnv ta3n?
>Apo ekei e3etazosouv/mastav oloi... Pngaive esu wraie Hrakleiwtn ama dev
>exeis mia va ko$eis tov kwlo sou v'agoraseis to kalo biblio...

Enallaktika yparxoyn kai oi dhmosies bibliouhkes Giwrgo. Den etyxe
na deis kamia sthn Ellada pote; Pantws egw diabazw kaue bdomada
sto PONTIKI to anoigma kainoyriwn bibliouhkwn se xwria se olh thn
Ellada. Epipleon, den ua exeis dei kai kati "aporoys" 16-17xronoys
poy cwmolysane pinontas araxtoi to kafedaki toys stis kafeteries.
Ase me re Giwrgo na poyme. Kai mh moy milhseis gia Layrio kai soy joy
moy joy dioti prokeitai gia peristasiakh katastash poy synista
ejairesh.

>0elw va mou apodei3eis oti A + A = 2A, mporeis??? Egw pou eimai asxetos
>mporw va sou pw oti 0a uparxei kai alln apavtnsn...

Ki ayto ti sxesh exei me th syzhthsh mas akribws? Isxyristhka
pote kati antiueto? Isa isa to gegonos pws amfisbhteis mia tetrimenh
shmeiografia einai uetiko mias kai ypodhlwnei anhsyxo pneyma.
An strafeis se ligotero tetrimena pragmata isws na proteineis
endiaferoyses uewries.

>Pali apofeugeis tnv erwtnsn... Mou piaveis tov 7xrovo kai oxi tov 13o, 14o,
>15o, 16o, 17o, 18o autoi posoi mikroi eivai kurie Hrakleiwtn?

Den apefyga tipota. Uymasai poy milhsa gia to Polykladiko lykeio
to opoio edine perissoteres dynatothtes epiloghs? Alla opws eipa
to Polykladiko lykeio uafthke apo thn idia kybernhsh poy to
anesthse. Kai etsi mia eykairia gia mia diaforikh ekpaideysh
xauhke. Opws blepeis loipon, anaferuhka safws stoys 13-16xronoys
anaferomenos sthn ekpaideytikh monada poy ua toys edine
polles eykairies an de uabotan toso adoja.

>Egw milw oti auto pou proteivw eivai efikto. Twra to ti kaveis esu gia
>va mnv stevoxwrnseis tov paraligo roomate sou, dikaiwma sou. Alla va
>mnv milame gia ideata kai efikta tnv wra pou eisai kala bolemevos stnv
>kareklitsa sou, ok? Ti gvwmn vomizeis 0a'xe o Aristofavns diabazovtas
>tnv parapavw apavtnsn sou? Egw vomizw oti 0a se ekave kwmwdia, opws kai
>tov Swkratn...

Den katalaba: ti akribws proteineis? Kai epipleon, epeidh eimai
"bolemenos sthn kareklitsa moy" den dikaioyme na omilw? Dhladh,
gia na milhsei kaneis gia to Systhma Ygeias  ua prepei na einai
arrwstos kai gia na milhsei kaneis gia ftwxia ua prepei na einai
ftwxos; Kai to oti esy proteineis kati efikto opws les (alhueia,
ti akribws proteineis) shmainei pws den eisai bolemenos se
kareklitsa; Den se katalabainw apolytws edw.

>Kala dev egra$es oti autos pou diabazei Saxtourn kai dev tou skirta n kardia
>eivai polu pi0avov kai va mn goustarei tn vewtern Ellnvikn poinsn?
>Kai pali omws sfurizeis adiafora kai gia tnv tampakiera oute logos...

Dhladh, ftaiw poy anefera to onoma toy Saxtoyrh? *** ANAKALW *** dioti
ap'oti fainetai merikoi steroyntai ths idiothtas ths genikeyshs. To
onoma "Saxtoyrhs" na diagrafei kai na antikatastauei me ton "tade
poihth" kai oi lejeis "newterh ellhnikh poihsh" na antikatastauoyn
me tis lejeis "logotexniko kinhma poy o tade poihths anhkei".
Apokatastauhke h alhueia twra;

>"That's the way it is klp" kai "protaseis gia allages"
>Sa va mn mas ta les kala Lewvida! Pws mporeis va kaveis allages se
>kati pou dev allazei? Ma0nmatika eivai fusn aduvato, sumfwva pavta me
>tnv dikn sou logikn...

Eipa egw pws kati den allazei; Mhpws mporeis na moy uymiseis poy
kai pote;

>Kai to Suvtagma pou epikaleisai suvexeia????

Ki ayto pali ti sxesh exei;

>Evdiaferov 0a 'xe mia tetoia ereuva kai plaka exei pou gevikologeis kai
>bgazeis sumperasmata apo av0rwpous pou, toulaxistov tous pio pollous, dev
>exeis kav gvwrisei...

Den ebgala symperasmata. Eipa "elpizw". Dhladh eyxhuhka pws ta
perissotera melh ths listas den ua einai stenokefala wste na
metroyn thn ejypnada kapoioy me ta "xartia" toy. Mhpws mperdeces
re sy to mynhma moy me kanenos alloy; Mhpws jexases ti ua pei
"elpizw"; Mhpws eisai pali sto mhna toy piotoy kai ths foymas?

>Mwre ti mas les? 0nsaurizouv oi av0rwpoi giati paizouv me tov povo twv goviwv!

Prwta ap'ola, egraca pws h parapaideia anuei pontarontas ston pouo,
(POTHO) twn goniwn kai oxi ston pono!

>0nsaurizouv giati n koivwvikn domn dev steketai se gern basn. Oloi Lewvida
>ma0aivoume pws va givoume gvwstoi eite sav epistnmoves eite sav tipota allo.
>Ama uparxouv kai ta lefta tote eimaste teleioi, $emata?

Gia thn teleytaia protash, pote den eipa 'h ypainixuhka kati
tetoio kai isa isa malista sto mynhma moy sto opoio (ypotiuetai pws)
apantas eipa akribws to antiueto.
Twra, o kauenas caxnei ta aitia diaforwn problhmatwn me
bash tis uewries toy kai tis dianohtikes toy protimhseis.
Esy to blepeis apo mia allh apoch: blepeis mia koinwnia dixws
gerh bash. PWs ua htan arage mia koinwnia me gerh bash. An
mia koinwnia den exei parapaideia, exei gerh bash; Dhladh h amerikanikh
koinwnia exei gerh bash; H kinezikh; H gallikh;

>Na gia paradeigma, o Eustratiadns...
>Gia 3avaske$ou to...

Dhladh o Eystratiadhs einai anagnwrismenos ereynhths se
uemata paidagwgikhs. Gia des ti mauainei kaneis apo thn
klika ths Baltimorhs :-)

>A, re Lewvida... Autos pou 0a parei to 5 omws 0a'vai mapas, eeee?
>Ma afou o av0rwpos sxistnke gia va perasei sto Pavepistnmio kai oute
>kav pairvei tnv morfwsn kai tnv gvwsn pou 0elei, ama dev exei kai mia
>gia va paei sto E3WTERIKO, giati va idrwsei???

(a) ama sxisthke gia na perasei sto panepisthmio pWs kai kollhse
sto 5; (b) Opws eipa se prohgoymeno posting moy, proteinw na
uespistoyn krithria gia th diathrhsh ths foithtikhs idiothtas,
ki etsi enas foithths toy 5 ua payei na einai kai foithths. Opws
blepeis eimai sxetika sygkrothmenos sto uema ayto (c) na kanoyme
ereyna sthn HELLAS na doyme posoi hruan stis HPA enw eixan
periorismenoys oikonomikoys poroys; An egw briskomai edw einai
epeidh moy etajan $1500 to mhna enw sthn Ellada to IKY moy edine
25,000 to mhna.

>Ma afou pio priv eipes oti "that's the way it is and that's the way it was"
>- dev prepei v'alla3ouv ta pragmata loipov? Giati dev e3etazeis sobara ta
>legomeva mou???

Nai, n'allajoyn omws pros to kalytero, kai symfwna me ta legomena
moy h Ellada den parexei ta exeggya gia ygih idiwtiko tomea akoma.
Mhpws gia sena kaue allagh omws, akoma kai pros to xeirotero einai
apodekth;

>H>   Estw. Tote  ti proteineis; Alla opws  eipa, to oti den  einai teleio
>H>   de  shmainei   pws  ua  prepei   na  mhn  eimaste  melh   toy.  Osoi
>H>   oneireyontai  teleia ekpaideytika  systhmata,  as janadiabasoyn  tis
>H>   Nefeles na syneluoyn.
>
>Alloi diabazouv tis Nefeles kai tis diabazouv kurie Hrakleiwtn...
>Poia n diafora? Elpizw va sas bon0nsouv oi ma0nmatikes gvwseis sas...

Nai, alla akoma den eipes "TI PROTEINEIS"; Protimhses thn anwdynh
anafora stis NEFELES kai stis mauhmatikes moy gnwseis. TI legame
gia ekeinh thn tampakiera; ...

>O "ouravos vefelwdns kai n 0alassa trikumiwdns" lukos

O "paromoiws" Leonidas
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