HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: THE MONEY SUPPLY AND CURRENCIES
Date: 21 Jan 1993 22:28:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu




dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:

>>>...A solution to this 
>>>problem might be instituting two levels of currency, the one for trading
>>>locally and the other for trading between communities.
>>
>>We had that once. It was called the feudal system - it was not an 
>>economic success. See also the economic problems of the city states
>>in the later middle ages.
>>
>Hardly.  Such economic systems are common is undeveloped areas.  They
>do not in any way require feudalism.  This actually fits in quite
>well with the Jeffersonian model and was common in rural areas
>during the early years of the US.

Sure if you don't have widely acceptable currency, you make do the
best you can. But you also try real hard to get out of the
"undevelopped" category. 

Jefferson won the debate, but it was Hamilton's ideas that were
accepted and implemented.


-- 

===========================================================================
Michael Spencer            |      2640 Borregas
spencer@cats.ucsc.edu      |      Aptos, CA   95003
===========================================================================
From: Jeff Sutter <jsutter@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:09 PST
Subject: Re: GREEN DISCUSSION ON NAFTA
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1678600140:cdp:1678600154:000:659
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jsutter    Jan 21 21:09:00 1993



The Gateway Greens (St. Louis) and the Prairie/Region 6 Greens/Green
Party are getting involved in the anti-NAFTA coalitions forming locally.

The next issue of Synthesis/Regeneration (no. 6) will be a special
issue concentrating on NAFTA.  For more information, to write an article,
etc, write S/R POB 24115, St Louis, Mo. 63130 or call Don Fitz,
314-727-8554.  Synthesis/Regeneration is the theoretical discussion
bulletin of the G/GPUSA).  

More on this later, but I thought I'd post a note indicating our 
opposition and concern.  We do think that this is an issue that 
Greens will benefit from work on.

*jeff sutter*
(Gateway Greens, St. Louis; S/R)

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: THE MONEY SUPPLY AND CURRENCIES
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:17:49 GMT

In article <1678600117@igc.apc.org> Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:
}
}> If you are going to have money then there must be some central
}> authority to regulate it.
}
}Is this a Libertarian position.  If so, does this suggest the Libertarians
}favor a central authority?

No.  The libertarian position is that we should have free banking.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Gas Tax?
Date: 27 Jan 93 08:43:22 GMT
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences

In article <1678600170@igc.apc.org> Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:
}>Either Greens truly support decentralism, in which case they ought to
}>oppose taxation, or they merely want central authority which is a little
}>less centralized in some vague, unspecified way, or their hypocritical.
}>There are probably Greens in all three camps.
}
}You make a good point here, however, I would disagree with your definition
}of decentralism.  I don't see decentralism as the ability of each individual
}to do whatever they wish subject to market forces, but that the locus for
}decision making be at the community level where all members of the community
}can participate in the decisions.

To be blunt, you fall into the latter of the two categories I gave.

Since you have taken this position, how is it justified?  If a high degree
of centralization or participation is bad, a lower degree is certainly not
as bad, but that doesn't make it good.  Surely the least evil would be
full decentralization, but if not, why?

If centralism is bad because it excludes some from directing their lives,
then this applies to all centralization of authority, not just the most
extreme form of it.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford)
Subject: Re: Outer space exploration
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:47:04 GMT

chu@pit.bear.com (Arnold Chu) writes:
>I have toyed with the questions some time ago.  I find the possibilities for
>material benefits quite questionable.  ( just think of fuel needed to land 
>ore safely ).  However, I think it may be justified on inspirational grounds.  

	The secret is to process the materials in space. That
eliminates 90% of the mass (which can be used in space), and keeps the
pollution from refining off Earth. Besides, it's not "fuel" it's
"energy".

>Another major problem confront humankind today is just learning to live with
>our differences and memories.  I don't believe arranging material rewards and
>penalties is sufficient to bring out the best qualities of humankind.  But our 
>BEST is surely needed to get along with each other, and with the other species.
>Exciting world scale projects, such as space exploration, can perhaps serves as
>a means to bring the various strands of humanity together. 

	Wealthy societies are generally better for the environment.
Wealth also helps solve the population problem.

--
"The course of true love never did run smooth."
				- William Shakespeare

"Nothing is more annoying than somebody who has a keen eye for the
obvious."
				- Walter Slovotsky
Rob Crawford 					betel@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: jek@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (James E. Kittock)
Subject: Re: Gas Tax?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 00:13:00 GMT

In article <1678600151@igc.apc.org> Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>> There are many areas in the west where populations are just too spread out
>> for mass transit to ever be practical.  [And, therefore am inclined to
>> oppose a gas tax to fund mass transit.]
>>
>> Dean Myerson
>
>I agree that the low density of population in the west may make any form
>of mass transit impractical.  But, I wonder if there
>are alternatives.
>
>Would there be ways for these folks to begin to live a little nearer each
>other in communities?
>
>Or, even in the nearer term, I wonder if car pooling or van pooling is used
>as extensively as it might if there were more
>incentives (i.e. gas tax)?

Hmm.  You MUST be from the East!  I am not sure exactly
which states you included in "the west", but you really
don't seem to understand the sense of scale out here,
esp. in the intermountain west (much of California,
esp. LA & SF areas is a different story altogether).

Things are just WAY spread out!  There are counties
bigger than many states (Elko Co., NV, for example).

Furthermore, except for a few cities, the intermountain
west has such a small fragment of the population that
it really must be quite insignificant in terms of
vehicle exhaust pollution (as compared to major
cities). 

Mass transit is not needed in the "country".  Mass
transit is needed in cities like DC, LA, etc.

The rancher who drives 150 miles to and from town once
a month contributes much less pollution than the suit
who drives 30 miles to and from a city every weekday.


-- 
 james kittock :: stanford cs grad student :: duke '92 :: go blue devils!!
 "Adaptation is a recursive process in living systems." -- Alex. M. Andrew
From: amck@maths.tcd.ie (Alastair McKinstry)
Subject: Re: PLEASE SIGN IN!
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 09:09:03 GMT

Hi. I'm Alastair McKinstry.
I'm in the Irish Green Party / Comhaontas Glas. I am a 4th year student in TCD,
the secretary of the Greens society here, and an ex-member of the
Green party co-ordinating committee , also a candidate last time round for
the Greens in the local (county) elections.

Consider me signed in.

BTW, I have electronic copies of the Irish GP documents (manifesto, results,
policies , etc.). If anyone wants them, e-mail me

-- 
					-^-
					 |  Alastair McKinstry
(amck@maths.tcd.ie)
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 21 Jan 93 20:29 PST
Subject: Re: Ca. Green Platform, Ecology Sec
Nf-ID: #R:1993Jan19.212757.1865@beaver.cs.:-985973865:cdp:1678600153:000:751
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan 21 20:29:00 1993


Bruce,
 
I think your comments about the platform are very well taken.  After
reading your ideas, it seems like you are very "Green" in your thinking
on solid waste.  I am sorry the platform disappointed you, but I am sure
it will be improved.  Perhaps you would like to start a new thread with
your proposals for solid waste management, join the Party, and see if
you can get them adopted.
 
As an aside, I got involved with the Greens after about a year of very
active work in promoting and setting up recycling centers.  It was very
clear to me that reduction was paramount and that there was no indication
that "more waste" is better because it means more recycling.  Actually,
I am not sure how you derived that concept from the platform.
 
Dale
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Gas Tax?
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:47:57 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <1993Jan25.084626.979@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>In article <9r_sz8+@SantaFe.edu> moore@kiowa.santafe.edu (Cris Moore) writes:
>
>Either Greens truly support decentralism, in which case they ought to
>oppose taxation, or they merely want central authority which is a little
>less centralized in some vague, unspecified way, or their hypocritical.
>There are probably Greens in all three camps.
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm glad you recognize this.
>
>True decentralists are with me on this; hypocrites are against me.  To
>those remaining: what principled basis is there for determining that any
>level of centralization is too much?

The true, total nonhypocrite for decentralization is not a Libertarian,
but an anarchist.  The existence of government, if only for national
defense, police and courts still implies a compromise.  You may not be
submitting to taxes, but you are still submitting to a central
authority.  
>
>Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
>starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu
>
>"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
>oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire


-- 
==============================================================================
	Dean Myerson     (aka dingo in boulder)     dean@vexcel.com
==============================================================================
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 21 Jan 93 17:28 PST
Subject: Re: Gas Tax?
Nf-ID: #R:4l!sh3k@santafe.edu:-1402134433:cdp:1678600151:000:2004
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan 21 17:28:00 1993


> There are many areas in the west where populations are just too spread out
> for mass transit to ever be practical.  [And, therefore am inclined to
> oppose a gas tax to fund mass transit.]
>
> Dean Myerson

I agree that the low density of population in the west may make any form
of mass transit impractical.  But, I wonder if there are alternatives.

Would there be ways for these folks to begin to live a little nearer each
other in communities?

Or, even in the nearer term, I wonder if car pooling or van pooling is used
as extensively as it might if there were more incentives (i.e. gas tax)?

Or, might it be possible to develop a way to get gas-sipper vehicles to
poor rural folks at a price they could afford?  (maybe subsidized by a
gas tax -- isn't this kinda what the Ca. Green Platform is suggesting?)

I know I am being tough on this issue, but it is because of my conviction
that our addiction to fossil fuels is seriously threatening our economic,
political and environmental future.  We need to begin to look at all the
government subsidies that are provided to feed this addiction.  These include,
but are not limited to

= Police force and the rest of the justice system who spend most of their
  time on traffic duty.

= Federal, state and local road building efforts (of which only a portion
  are paid by gas taxes).

= the land purchased or otherwise acquired for roads which is no longer
  available for other uses.

= Business tax write-offs for paving parking lots (as a cost of doing
  business).

= Military force used to ensure a continuous supply of oil.  (The Persian
  Gulf War/Massacre is the main reason why I consider this so important.)

The cost of these subsidies is the inability of society (whether private or
public) to spend this money on other projects.  These other projects might
include health care, investment in companies specializing in recycling or
energy efficiency, or even subsidizing the rural poor who must depend on
fossil fueled vehicles.

Dale
From: aphrael@cats.ucsc.edu (Robert D West)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: NOTA petitions
Date: 22 Jan 1993 18:35:30 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


Does anyone know where it is possible to get NOTA ballot initiative petitions
for the purpose of circulating them?
-- 
"I don't know a soul who's not been battered	|	The American Dream?
I don't have a friend who feels at ease		|	The California Dream?
I don't know a dream that's not been shattered	|  In 1993, dreams these aren't.
Or driven to its knees.				|  Rather, they're nightmares.
But it's all right, it's all right"		|______________________________
	---Paul Simon, "American Tune" (1973)	|	aphrael@cats.ucsc.edu
________________________________________________|  1991-1995; Politics/History
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 24 Jan 93 07:18 PST
Subject: Re: COMMUNITY SUPPORTED AGRICULTURE
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1678600150:cdp:1678600165:000:1187
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan 24 07:18:00 1993


>I think Dale and Paul are looking at this issue with different goals.
>It sounds like Dale is looking for a more sustainable system with
>less environmental damage and the various community and self
>sufficiency issues fall in line.  In _addition_, I think Paul is
>looking for that "connection" that people have lost by being so
>remote from what supports us.  Am I right?
 
Actually, I firmly support people's spiritual needs to connect them
to the land.  However, from a policy point of view, most westerners
don't appreciate spirituality as a sufficient motivation.  So, I
point out the tangible and quantifiable benefits to consumer and 
the farmer instead of the more personal and subjective spiritual
benefits.
 
I think that Paul is more concerned with the "very long term" and
has doubts whether any agricultural system, including indigenous
methods, is sustainable.  He suggests that agriculture is very new
to the world, only a few thousand years, which does not give him
much reason to believe it is sustainable in a biological system
that has been evolving for hundreds of millions of years.
 
Paul, please correct me if I have not understood your position
clearly.
 
Dale
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 20 Jan 93 07:03 PST
Subject: Re: LAW SUITS, REMEDIES AND TOXICS
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1678600109:cdp:1678600144:000:578
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan 20 07:03:00 1993


>You for example strongly defend communitarianism;
>many others adhere to various forms of marxism (see prior
>postings to this group).  My point is that both systems are
>recognized by most people to be politically naive panaceas; and 
>the Green movement loses credibility because so many of its 
>most vocal members also endorse failed political systems.

Micheal Spencer,

I appreciate your thoughtful comments, but I am wondering what
type of political system you think Greens should be promoting.

Also, which political system in modern times has not "failed"?  :-)

Dale
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Gas Tax?
Date: 27 Jan 93 08:31:05 GMT
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences

In article <1993Jan25.194757.21810@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
}The true, total nonhypocrite for decentralization is not a Libertarian,
}but an anarchist.

This is not a necessary distinction.  Those libertarians who believe in
a minimal State think it a necessary evil.  They wouldn't even believe in
that much statism if they thought it were unnecessary, as I do.

The existence of government, if only for national
}defense, police and courts still implies a compromise.  You may not be
}submitting to taxes, but you are still submitting to a central
}authority.  

History and theory teach that no State is necessary for there to be defense
against foreign invasion, domestic crime, or courts of law.

They also teach us that gas taxes are unnecessary for there to be conservation
of gas.  All that is needed is for its price to rise as a function of its
rising scarcity.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: THE MONEY SUPPLY AND CURRENCIES
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 08:52:02 GMT

In article <1jkaaoINNfep@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer) writes:
}
}As originally stated: Hyper-inflation is caused by a failure/lack of
}the central banking system. The extent of the region over which the
}currency is negotiated is not relevant.

Mr. Spencer, I've rebutted your false claims about central banking before,
and you seem to have ignored them.  I've read the world history of free
banking, and there has never been a hyperinflation in any area with it
that I know of.  Is your claim merely theoretical, or have I missed a
case?

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: THE MONEY SUPPLY AND CURRENCIES
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:43:04 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <1jn81oINNcth@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer) writes:
>
>
>
>dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>
>>>>...A solution to this 
>>>>problem might be instituting two levels of currency, the one for trading
>>>>locally and the other for trading between communities.
>>>
>>>We had that once. It was called the feudal system - it was not an 
>>>economic success. See also the economic problems of the city states
>>>in the later middle ages.
>>>
>>Hardly.  Such economic systems are common is undeveloped areas.  They
>>do not in any way require feudalism.  This actually fits in quite
>>well with the Jeffersonian model and was common in rural areas
>>during the early years of the US.
>
>Sure if you don't have widely acceptable currency, you make do the
>best you can. But you also try real hard to get out of the
>"undevelopped" category. 
>
>Jefferson won the debate, but it was Hamilton's ideas that were
>accepted and implemented.
>
I think you misinterpret me.  I am not against a centralized currency
or a national bank to manage it.  I think it may be essential.  I just
think that it need not be used for all local transactions.  And while
some of Hamiton's ideas were implemented, their effect on non-urban
economies was more limited for quite a while.

>
>-- 
>
>===========================================================================
>Michael Spencer            |      2640 Borregas
>spencer@cats.ucsc.edu      |      Aptos, CA   95003
>===========================================================================


-- 
==============================================================================
	Dean Myerson     (aka dingo in boulder)     dean@vexcel.com
==============================================================================
From: spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Jargon, was Re: LAW SUITS, REMEDIES AND TOXICS
Date: 21 Jan 1993 22:52:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu
Keywords: ambiguity directness




cls@truffula.sj.ca.us (Cameron L. Spitzer) writes:


>...It would be more
>useful to me and others new to the field if we could talk about actual
>values and policies instead of throwing opaque package names like
>"marxism" around. 

>...I haven't read enough
>Marx to judge for myself (and probably never will).  Without knowing
>what Michael's "marxism" is, exactly, his "failed system" assertion is
>pretty meaningless to me.

Karl Marx detailed his social prescriptions in "Das Kapital", mostly
in the second half of the book (which is turgid in the extreme and
I don't blame you for not wanting to read it). The term "marxism"
is simply a short-hand way of referring to those prescriptions; it
is a common usage and you can look it up reasonably complete 
reference books. 



-- 

===========================================================================
Michael Spencer            |      2640 Borregas
spencer@cats.ucsc.edu      |      Aptos, CA   95003
===========================================================================
From: Michael K. Lerch <mikelerch@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 21 Jan 93 20:24 PST
Subject: Re: Gas Tax?
Nf-ID: #R:4l!sh3k@santafe.edu:-1402134433:cdp:1678600152:000:817
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!mikelerch    Jan 21 20:24:00 1993



One concept that might work is the way natural gas and electricity is sold.
You get a basic or lifeline allowance at a lower rate and once that is used
in a given month the rate goes up.  Urban poor, rural folks, and others who
have basic needs could be issued a credit/debit card that allows a fixed
number of gallons/month depending on predetermined need at current (low)
prices and substantially higher, taxed prices at amounts above the baseline.
This would require some amount of bureaucracy to administrate, but it would
achieve the goal of discouraging unnecessary consumption without discriminating
against those in real need of basic gasoline-powered transportation.

I know that many southern California commuters will start carpooling when it
becomes cheaper than driving alone, but not until then.

Mike