HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:10:35 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <9207220555.AA08458@nysernet.ORG> <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL> writes:
>
>As long as the people are affiliated with a liberal stream of Judaism,
>they are probably observing more mitzvoth than they would otherwise have.
>They are also preserving their Jewish consciousness, and we can hope that
>in the future they will return to a greater observance.

Yes.  But once these people are doing some mitzvot, it would be nice
if their leadership gradually introduce them to more, so that they
eventually (or their children) return completely.  The Reform movement
appears to ignore this aspect of education.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Hebrew school (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 29 Jul 92 01:46:21 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
Organization: Michigan State University
Originator: friedenb@kira.egr.msu.edu

In article <1992Jul28.131108.4663@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.192739.22976@umbc3.umbc.edu>
>shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>
>>The same argument might be made against afternoon Hebrew schools.
>>If the only form of J. education was yeshivot, then most J. kids
>>would attend, and get solid J. educations.  But now (in the US), 
>>J. parents can meet their "responsibilities" by sending their kids
>>for a few hours a week -- and most J. kids get very little.
>
>There exist two problems (at least) with afternoon school:
>
>1) Kids going to them look to public school friends who do more fun
>things after school, are jealous, and are thus poorly motivated to
>learn.
>
>2) Because most get little more than Hebrew school as a Jewish education
>(and the majority of them end at bar/bat mitzvah), life long memory of
>Judaism and Jewish education tends to be unsophisticated  and/or
>childlike.

I think that there has to be a third added to this list.

3) Because afternoon school is a medium for parents, who have no other
committment to Judaism, to convince themselves that they are being
responsible Jewish parents.  

After teaching four years of "afternoon school" I have come to realize
that the parents of my students genuinely did not care.  They (and I
include my family in much of this) go to synagogue _maybe_ twice a
year, serve shell-fish at Bar/Bat Mitzvah receptions, allow their
children to inter-date, openly ridicule any form of a jewish
"lifestyle", and feel that if their son can make it through a
memorized maftir at at his Bar Mitzvah, then their duty as a Jewish
parent has been successfully completed.

During the public school athletic seasons the attendance rate in my
class was under 50%.  If soccer is more important than Hebrew School,
how important could Hebrew School really be?

Teachers in the afternoon school system are helpless in this
situation.  If a Jewish boy or girl goes to Sunday school and learns
about kashrut, but goes home to have eggs and bacon, everything
learned in Hebrew school goes right out the door.

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:36:10 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.205843.11008@wam.umd.edu> aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <9207221649.AA21824@ptms_dev.sbi.com> gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com  
>(User - Don Gertler) writes:
>> choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.) writes:
>> >Why must a Jew practice Jewish principles? You wouldn't demand a person
>> >born in a tribe of cannibals to practice cannibal principles would you?
>> 
>> Perhaps not, but he/she wouldn't be a cannibal then.
>> 
>> -Don Gertler
>
>Then, even if my mother is Jewish, if I do not practice Jewish principles,  
>I am not Jewish?
>
>AAP



Here we go again.  This has been repeated over and over and
over ....

We are different from all the peoples of the earth in that we are a
nation, a religion, a people .....

An individual born Jewish (lets save the OCR fight over patrilineal
descent for later) is and remains Jewish.  He/she can be a "bad"
Jew, a nonpracticing Jew, whatever terms you like but the person as
a person is, was, and will be Jewish.

Judaism, is the set of principles and beliefs that a Jew *SHOULD*
follow.  If the person follows a different set of beliefs (save the
argument over what they are for later as well), he/she is a Jew who
is following nonJewish beliefs.

Now lets drop the cannibal analogy as it does not really apply and
is not leading anywhere.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 23:29:40 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.211027.7040@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In a lot of cases, the conclusion I come to is the same
>as the halachic conclusion; but that's not because I'm "following" hala-
>cha. I don't *follow* anything.
>
>	-Nora

If you do not follow halacha, I guess that halacha is not a "law" for you.
So, if your conclusion is different from the halacha, are you violating it?
This is surprising, because Jewish religion is based on a set of principles
given by God. How can you be a religious Jewish and not follow them?

When you said that intermarriage was wrong: Are you using halacha as your
basis for that?
I ask you because you said that I supported violations of halacha, even
if I do not believe that there is one. Now, you say that you do not follow
it.
So, are you violating halacha or what?

I guess you do not know.

AAP

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:08:13 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.213610.23796@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
>Now lets drop the cannibal analogy as it does not really apply and
>is not leading anywhere.
    Is it eating at you?
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R Debate
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:37:40 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <FAIGIN.92Jul28143843@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>On Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:02:16 GMT, aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) said:
>> I understand your position, however, I do not understand why the laws
>> derived from the Torah, and any religious law by the way, should follow any
>> logic.   

>Not true. Whether the laws are logical is a different question, but if you are
>given the premise (unprovable) that what is written in the Torah is the word
>of G-d, then the laws in the Talmud should logically follow from the Torah.
>Similarily, the fences etc. erected since talmudic times should logically
>follow from the talmud.

>If you don't hold with the premise, but hold with divine inspiration, then the
>same logical conclusions can be drawn, but they don't have the same force.

Having read parts of the Talmud and Midrash, the "logic" used is not what
we would call logic, but a set of "rules", even explicitly stated, for
exegesis.  I have seen enough examples of weird uses of these rules, and
the rules are sufficiently broad that many developments can be made, and
these may be mutually contradictory.  It is not logic as any modern
scientist or philosopher would use the term.  

The traditional answer is that the sages with the appropriate background
cannot come up with an incorrect answer, but this is not satisfactory.
It violates the idea of a logical argument, which is that given the
premises, explicitly stated, and the rules, explicitly stated, any 
application or series of applications of the rules to the premises
yields a valid result.

-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: The Tale of a Jerusalem Mohel
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 12:49:30 +0300

 On: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:24:00 GMT
 boaz@concerto.lcs.mit.edu (Boaz Ben-Zvi) reported:

>In article <1992Jul28.123835.26959@tudorct.com>, shdan@tudorct.com (Dan Shimof
>|> How do mohels get their first gigs?  I had heard that they practice on
>|> stillborns, but even so, a real live kicking baby is probably a different
>|> experience.
>|>
>|> Has anybody ever been told when arranging for a mohel "Uh.  I'm new to
>|> this so you get a special rate."?  Or something similar?.
>
>My kids mohel (I did the actual cut, but he arranged everything) told me
>that he studied mohalut (he's actually a hazan) in Jerusalem, and got his
>first practices on Arab kids in Jerusalem and also accompanied another mohel
>to some briths in Israel. I guess that the other mohel alleviated any worries
>by introducing my guy as a "mohel from AMERICA !!" :-)

I can not  deny that this "mohel"  had told Boaz that story  but it is
almost surely not true.  Besides  the rather disgusting concept that a
Jew would first perfect his skills on Arabs before he touches a Jewish
babe, one has to remember that Moslems circumcise at an age of about 8
to 13  years (they do  not firmly do  it just at  age 13), thus  it is
unlikely that they would let an  unskilled person perform for them, as
even expertise in the Jewish version (which this man did not yet have)
would not make him ready to operate on Muslims.

>-- Boaz

    Michael Shimshoni
From: moskowit@tronsbox.xei.com (Len Moskowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:22:59 GMT
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.

Before I can post to the net, my mailer asks me "if I really want to
do this?"  I had to mull that question over quite a bit before I typed
"y."  I've really tried hard to stay out this round of the
Reform/Orthodox debate, but Daniel succeeded in provoking me to write.

Dan wrote:

>Based on the way that I've seen some Orthodox on this net behave, I surely
>wouldn't be attracted to a belief system that was that narrow-minded. Yet, I
>know that within Orthodoxy there are those (I've met them) that are willing to
>accept Reform for what they are -- imperfect Jews -- and invite them in and
>teach them what they don't know. Without condemnation. This is done with the
>hope that by learning what they don't know, they'll want to practice more.
>
>Consider: If by your example you can prevent someone from turning away and
>doing one more mitzvah on a regular basis, that's better than years of debate.
>
>Consider: Reform Jews do keep kosher, do observe the holidays, do (for the
>most part) circumcize their children, do observe Pesach, do eat Matzah and
>moror, do follow the ethical teachings, do observe Rosh Hashana and Yom
>Kippur, do teach their children in Judaism.
>
>No one ever says what Reform does, only what they don't do. If Reform can do
>some, surely we can do more. And this has happened. I've posted statements
>from the 1800's -- that thinking is considered too liberal nowadays. Reform is
>steadily moving towards tradition and practice. You've got Hebrew in the
>service; you got both a Reader's and a Mourner's Kaddish (you used to only
>have one).

One must make a distinction between the individual and an institution.
I have nothing but praise respect for any Jew, of any denomination,
who is working on improving their Jewish practice.  I have nothing but
disrespect and scorn for any institution that legitimizes and promotes
a watered down, decide-for-yourself, version of Judaism -- and that's
what the Reform leadership have done.  Any so-called "rabbinic"
organization that allows an avowed atheist "rabbi" to retain
membership (as the Reform's UAHC has done), and threatens Judaism's
foundations (as UAHC has done with its spineless "optional" guidelines
on conversion, patrilineal descent, and many other issues of halakha)
doesn't deserve an iota of respect.

-- 
---

Len Moskowitz
moskowit@tronsbox.xei.com (preferred address)
moskowit@panix.com (alternate address)
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 31 Jul 92 20:57:09 GMT
	<1992Jul30.204110.17057@midway.uchicago.edu>
	<1992Jul31.162759.27127@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA

On Fri, 31 Jul 92 16:27:59 GMT, er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) said:

> Are you implying that Reform mandates (or at least urges) vegetarianism?
> Or that they have a form of Hachgacha that ensures that all animals eaten
> by Reform Jews were treated humanely throughout their lives?  Or do you
> just mean that Reform opposes cruelty to animals?  If the latter, then that
> is not a valid example of a difference between Reform and Orthodox.

The mail.liberal-judaism archives contain the following relevent article:

Originally Written: Sat, 5 Oct 91 08:34:22 EST
From: faigin
Subject: Reform Position on Ethics and Kashrut

On Thu, 03 Oct 91 23:27:15 EDT, Rabbi Charles Arian <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu>
said: 

> Nevertheless, the idea of ethical kashrut will be difficult to inculcate
> in a context where, by and large, the idea of kashrut per se is rejected.
> "Ethical kashrut" is not "instead of" normative kashrut but rather an
> expansion of themes inherent in the traditional dietary laws.

However, a focus on ethics is one of the key factors in Reform Judaism, ever
since its inception. Going through the Reform Responsa, it is explicitly
stated that: 

  Those Reform Jews who observe the dietary laws, totally or in part, seem to
  do so because (a) it adds to their personal expression of Judaism; the daily
  meals serve as reminders of Jewish ideals; (b) it provides an additional
  link with other Jews and a link to history; it enables Jews of all groups to
  eat in their home or their synagogue; (c) it encourages ethical discipline;
  a large number of Reform Jews observe a modified form of the dietary laws by
  abstaining from pork products, animals, specially prohibited, seafood, and
  the mixing of meat and milk. Some form of dietary observance may be carried
  out as a daily reminder of Judaism; the form may be left to the individual
  or congregation. "One might opt to eat only kosher meat or event to adopt
  Some form of vegetarianism so as to avoid the necessity of taking a life.
  (This would be in consonance with the principle of tsa-ar ba-alei chayim --
  prevention of cruelty of animals.) The range of options available to the
  Reform Jew is from full observance of the Biblical and Rabbinic regulations
  to total non-observance. Reform Judaism does not take an `all or nothing'
  approach." (Gates of Mitzvah, p. 132).

If we are talking about serious Reform Judaism, than any idea truly thought
out will not be difficult to introduce. However, people will follow it based
on their own beliefs and values.

--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
   "You can't be a rationalist in an irrational world. It isn't rational!"
	       Dr. Rance, in Joe Orton's "What the Butler Saw"
From: cindy@meshugge.media.mit.edu (Cindy Blank-Edelman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: BAtman returns -- POSSIBLE SPOILERS
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:56:46 GMT
	<1992Jul28.151249.11636@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Organization: M.I.T. Media Laboratory

Re: Jewish analogies in Batman Returns....

Despite what the naysayers say, I definitely saw some analogies in the
movie, but I saw them as Biblical allusions, rather than anti-Semitic
statements.  

Most striking was the allusion to Moses and Pharoah: the Penguin is
put in a basket in the river as a baby (like Moses); he later wants to
kill all the first born children (like Pharoah).  These allusions
brought more depth to the movie and to Penguin's character, and they
seemed to be intentional allusions.

Rather than conveying a simplistic anti-Semitic message, however, I
thought it was an interesting message about leadership and prophecy,
and choosing our leaders wisely -- recognizing the "Moses" and the
"Pharoah" in them before we elect them to office.  

--Cindy Blank-Edelman
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Multiple Hechshers
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 30 Jul 92 08:48:45 GMT

In <1992Jul30.010817.19798@cs.ubc.ca> drukier@crisium.geop.ubc.ca (Gordon Drukier) writes:

> Anyone for a Jewish back-to-the-land movement?

I've heard of something like that around this part of the world.
Can't quite recall it's name but it will come to me, I'm sure.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very three-sided hamantasch.
 |warren@      But the okra
/ nysernet.org is not concerned at all.
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orhodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 29 Jul 92 18:21:19 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <9207291534.AA26259@ptms_dev.sbi.com> <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)> writes:
>faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>>gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) said:
>>> If the official Reform position is that Halakha (Torah, Talmud, etc.)
>>> is not binding on all Jews...
>
>>I don't think Reform says "all Jews". The movement can only address Reform
>>Jews.
>
>If they claim there are some Jews on whom Halakha is not binding, then
>they are saying it is not binding on all Jews.

Mostly, they say that it is not their business whether some Jews
consider themselves bound by halacha or not, much the same way that
I can think very definitely that smoking is something that is bad for
everybody while still not thinking it my business to go and tell someone
to stop.

>Are you saying that Reform claims that Halakha IS binding on some Jews?
>I realize you said that Reform can only address Reform Jews, but that
>leaves open the possibility that some Jews may, in fact, be obligated.
>Rather, IMHO, it seems that what they are saying is that Halakha is not
>binding (by anything other than personal choice or membership in another
>organization) on ANY Jews.  Again, anyone may choose to deport him/herself
>as he/she sees fit, but no need to feel obligated.

The Reform Rabbis I've known have been very definite that Torah is
binding on all Jews. What isn't binding is the halachic method of
interpretation, as they don't think it's a terribly good way of get-
ting at the correct answers.

I've never met a Reform Rabbi who thought that people were free to do
whatever they felt like.

>-Don Gertler

	-Nora
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:24:38 GMT

In article <9207232117.AA19859@m5.chi.il.us> <jay@m5.chi.il.us (Jay F Shachter)> writes:
>I do not (yet) have the NetNews software running on my machine.
>Is there any way I can get soc.culture.jewish, and perhaps also
>other selected newsgroups, without getting all of NetNews?
>
>Thank you in advance for your reply.
>
>			Jay F Shachter
>			6424 N Whipple St
>			Chicago IL  60645-4111
>				(1-312)7613784
>				jay@m5.chi.il.us


There is a mail gateway on israel.nysernet.org.

Send a mail message to listserv@israel.nysernet.org reading

subscribe scj <your full name>

Warren has said that to save mail usage you can add a digest
command to get the mail only a few times a day instead of every
hour (or was it as they come in?)

Since it is mail, threading depends on your mail handler.

The mail is gatewayed into/from the internet.

To post a message, send the message to scj@israel.nysernet.org

There are some other gateways for posting for people who have read
only access.  THey are general groups for posting only and are


Your-favorite-newsgroup replaces your.favorite.newsgroup

e.g. soc-culture-jewish@<site> posts on soc.culture.jewish

The sites are

cs.utexas.edu
ucbvax.berkely.edu  (Which may be restricted to Berkely students)
decwrl.dec.com       (I haven't tried this one)
newsbase.cs.yale.edu (Someone who tried it had some trouble)

Hope this helps.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<FAIGIN.92Jul20150755@soldan.aero.org>
	<LERNER.92Jul21122239@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<54930@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:34:17 GMT

			   .......................
>> Faigin: 
>> Comment that Reform says two kaddishes 
>>>>Lerner:
>>>>Proof perfect that Reform does not know where it is, and the searching Jew
>>>> ought to be aware of this.
>>>>>>Rubin:
>>>>>>I consider this an argument for Reform.  When we know exactly what we 
>>>>>>should be doing, we are dead.

Building upon the work of previous generations of Rabbonim has
significant advantages, including the benefit of their
brilliance, as well as the wisdom that they received from their
Rabbonim.  In this manner the search can be significantly more
productive.  My point is not to say we know "exactly" what we
should be doing, but rather that our search is based upon study
and practice of the halacha.
--
/M
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Ending O-C-R Wars
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:08:41 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul27.181143.16563@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>
>Are O-C-R battles ever productive?  I suggest (with great temerity) YES!
>I have learned a great deal from Daniel Faigin's postings about the
>CCAR's position on various issues.  I found last year's swordfish
>controversy informative.
>
>Is there anything we can do to keep scj informative rather than
>embarrassing?  (If your suggestion is to keep Orthodox posters off,
>or to eliminate the "Reformers [joke, Daniel, _joke_ :-)] then
>you've missed the point.)

As long as the comments are commenting on the beliefs and not on the
people who hold them, much good can come from these discussions.
There's nothing quite like a hostile critic for sharpening one's own
beliefs.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish