HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 8939527@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 00:54:26 GMT

>
>There is one small thing you forget hier Michael. Let me
>remind you, people are not "IBM machines" or "Microsoft"
>sotware. People have feelings,
>national identity and ethnicity. When one group of people 
>feel Macedonian, than I believe it is enough for them to be
>called Macedonians. It is agains the human rights to take
>ethnic identity from people.

	I agree. I am makedonien. What's more I was makedonien before
you SAID you are. So now the problem is solved. Go become an
eskimo or an japanese. We have had enough.



>
>  michael> Let's just pray for peace.
>
>Sasa.
	Good answer Sasa, I'd go for peace though.
>

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8026 soc.history:7425
From: afadel@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ayman Fadel)
Subject: Reports about Refugees from Former Yugoslavia
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 22:07:40 GMT

The following are reports I have found.  Quotation marks indicate direct
quotes from the articles.

--------
Source:  _UN Chronicles_, June 92, p.17

On March 27, the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees
Sadako Ogata said that the U.N.'s goal was to facilitate the
voluntary return of one million refugees.

-------
The Observer, 19-Jul-92, "Exodus:  Two Million Bosnians Flee
War Zone."

The U.N. says that three million people "are on the move or
trying to leave their homes to escape the fighting; two million
alone come from Bosnia".

There are 280,000 Muslims and Croats in and around Bihac.

The article describes a scene at a long metal bridge across
the Sava River linking Bosanki Brod in Bosnia and Slavonski
Brod in Croatia.  Roads packed with vehicles with "number
plates from the town of Modrica in Bosnia."

There is only one hospital in Slavonski Brod.  It has not been
hit.  The closest hospital to this hospital was in Derventa,
twenty miles away in Bosnia.  It has been destroyed.

Every day, between twenty and one hundred men are
admitted with shrapnel wounds.  Seven operating teams work
simultaneously.

There are 55,000 refugees in Slavonsky Brod.

There is a transit camp for refugees at Pozega.  It holds
35,000 refugees.

-------
The Times, July 30, 1992, p1, "Britain Refuses to Open the
Door to Refugees."

Sadako Ogata, UN High Commissioner for Refugees, said
that displacement appeared to be the goal, not the result, of
the war in Bosnia-Herzegovenia.  Some 10,000 people are
uprooted daily, and 500,000 will need shelter this winter.

Jose Maria Mendiluce, based in Sarajevo, said, "Every day
150 to 200 houses are being shelled, burnt or dynamited."

Germany has promised to take 210,000 refugees.  Some say
it has already accepted 250,000.

Up to 70% of the refugees are women and children.

------
The Times, July 30, 1992, "Huge Refugee Influx Forces
Germany to Seek EC Quotas."

On July 23, 1992, 7,000 Muslims left Bosanki Novi in U.N.
organized convoys.  They arrived in Karlovac, Croatia.  Many
later went to Germany.

            Country            Number of Refugees

            Germany            210,000
            Hungary            50,000
            Austria            50,000
            Sweden             44,167
            Switzerland        17,573
            Italy              7,000
            Netherlands        6,300
            Norway             2,331            
            Denmark            1,637            
            Poland             1,500            
            United Kingdom     1,300
            France             1,108
            Luxemborg          1,000
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Date: 16 Aug 92 09:31:33 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Mile  Erlic (merlic@jacob.UVic.CA) writes:
))And of course if Croatia want "its" land back, this could be a
))move, but it is hardly respectful to the people in Krajina who
)
)  Why the quotation marks around its? The land around Krajina is
)Croatian land to the extent that Croatia has received internationally
)recognized right to administer this land.

But it isn't Croats who live there, is it?
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
From: U45301@uicvm.uic.edu (Mary Jacobs)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: CLINTON TEXT: SERBIAN CAMP KILLINGS
Date: 19 Aug 92 06:03:57 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

CLINTON SPEECH TEXT NOW POSTED ON ALT.POLITICS.CLINTON

SEND COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS REGARDING THIS INFORMATION TO THE
CLINTON/GORE CAMPAIGN AT 75300.3115@COMPUSERVE.COM
(This information is posted for public education purposes.  It does
not necessarily represent the views of The University.)
========================================================================
Statement By Governor Bill Clinton on killings in Serbian camps
August 4, 1992

     I am outraged by the revelations of concentration camps in
Bosnia and urge immediate action to stop this slaughter.

     For months, unverified reports have circulated about
atrocities, secret detention camps, torture and murder.  Now,
confirmed reports indicate that thousands of Croats and Slavic
Muslims have been tortured and killed.  Survivors report of brutal
executions, as well as prisoners held in metal cages without
sanitation or adequate food.

     The United States and the international community must take
action.  If the horrors of the Holocaust taught us anything, it is
the high cost of remaining silent and paralyzed in the face of
genocide.

     We must discover who is responsible for these actions and take
steps to bring them to justice for these crimes against humanity.

     The United States should take the lead in calling on the
United Nations Security Council to convene immediately in emergency
session.  It should call for access by the International Committee
of the Red Cross to all detention camps and to initiate a relief
effort.  The UN should demand the release of all non-combatants
into the custody of the ICRC and the immediate closing of any
detention centers.  Military prisoners of war, if any, should be
held under conditions defined by international law, including
access for the ICRC.

     The United Nations demands should be backed up by collective
action, including the use of force, if necessary.  The United
States should be prepared to lend appropriate support, including
military, to such an operation.

     The United States and the world community must come together
in this crisis.  All Americans must be united across party lines on
this matter of simple human decency.  I will strongly support
urgent and appropriate action to stop the killing.
From: THEO@licra.dn.mu.oz.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams (was: MACEDONIA: A SWITZERLAND...)
Date: 17 Aug 92 04:13:17 GMT
Organization: Ludwig Institute for Cancer Research

In article <3806@keele.keele.ac.uk>, cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
> From article <1992Aug15.065036.9965@news.weeg.uiowa.edu>, by lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis):
>  
>> Greeks try to protect their national security
> 
> In England a newspaper report (Guardian) told us the Macedonian army consisted of
> 2,000 men and 2 helicopters. I'd have thought that this wouldn't have
> posed a threat even to the most incompetent opposition. 
> 
Sounds like this report is an order of magnitude (at least) out. Did anyone 
see the very recent Munich TV report re. Macedonian issue? Excellent,
unbiased, talked to all parties involved.

>> and cultural heritage.
> 
> Despite the highly contentious nature of Greek claims in this area, even
> if we accept them as true isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? I'd be pleased if the French
> started to claim they were really English.

Now, from the ridiculous to the....ridiculous-
What if the French claimed that the English were not English and that they 
(the French) were the real English? (Mutual historical exclusion is what is 
going on between Skopje and Athens).

>>>I wonder, might this perhaps reflect some cultural inferiority complex on 
>>>the part of these Greek people?
> 
> Getting to look that way, Zoltan, the Greeks are doing themselves no favours at
> all in the world by persisting with this.
> 
> I still read this newsgroup as an antidote to fits of optimism about
> mankind

What do you two mean by cultural inferiority complex? Greeks are proud and 
protective of their history. Greeks are also very parochial - they still 
see their regionality as important - and to anyone that knows Greece can 
see that in cultural, linguistic etc. differences between Macedonia, Ipirus
, Pelloponese, Attica, Thrace, Crete etc....... 
> 

> Andy 

Theo Mandamadiotis
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Can anyone tell me
Date: 16 Aug 92 23:08:24 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <Bt3KpF.8G1@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>Who is Alex Gilas (sp?)?  Apparently he was born in Belgrad and has written
>a book about the stife in ex-Yugoslavia.


The son of Milovan Djilas, the last time I have heard of him, 
a research fellow at Harvard Univeristy.  I'll mention him
on one of the my next postings, in a bad connotation.  About 
his father, I hope that he would finally stand trial for a
real crime of genocide, he was commiting against all non-
communists during the WWII. 


>
>Joe Blazic

Regards,

Milan N. Stojanovic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: B.Kumar@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Bosnia: Another Spain? (The need for urgent Muslim Action )
Date: 22 Aug 92 16:53:22 GMT


One Mr Zfar Minhas sent the above request to following newsgroups:

    soc.culture.pakistan, soc.culture.afghanistan,
    soc.culture.bangladesh, soc.culture.india, soc.culture.asean,
    soc.culture.yugoslavia, soc.culture.iranian, soc.culture.african


>>In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Benificent
>>
>>Assalamu'alaikum:
>>The war in Bosnia rages on. Tens of thousands of Muslims have been
  ( long winding message deleted ...)
>>we live in to do more for the Muslims in Bosnia. 
>>A few suggestions for possible actions are:
>>
>>   1)   Send donations for Bonsia to any major Islamic Organization in 
>>        the U.S.  ICNA and ISNA are among the many organizations who are
>>        trying to gather funds for Bosnia.
>>   AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
>>
>>   6)   Remember your Brothers and Sisters in Bosnia (and in other parts of 
>>        the world like Kashmir , Algeria, Somalia and Burma ) in your prayers

( The situation in Bosnia is really very very bad and unimaginable
brutality has been done by both sides on innocents citizens belonging 
to other side of ethnic devide.) 

Though above steps may help, but, I think, muslim "brothers" in Bosnia will 
be better served by sending 200,000 soldiers from country like Pakistan- a 
great islamic power that maintains over 800,000 muslim soldiers and reserves.
I am sure that 200,000 muslim soldiers should be sufficient to defeat an 
army of just about 40,000 to 50,000 serbian army of christian "brothers".
Condemining serbian agression is not sufficeint.

What is the use of maintaining such a big muslim army, if muslim "brothers" 
are sufferring terrible brutality in the hands of non-muslims "brothers".
Please write to  prime minister and presidents of Pakistan to send
army to fight in Bosnia and save the life of muslim "brothers".

No flame please. 

regards,

bkumar alias b. khan
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:48:20

In response to an article I posted, Panos Tamamidis
<ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> writes in article
<Bt8w6y.D0H@news.cso.uiuc.edu>:

    The problem is that you've lost any contact with Greece.  You are slowly
    becoming an American.  Try to find some Greek guys around, and start 
    speaking some Greek again; then, you'll see what the problem is ...

This is an ad hominem argument.  Your theory about WHY I say what I
say may or may not be true, however it does not constitute a logical
response.

If only someone who speaks Greed to `Greek guys' can be convinced by
your arguments, they are very weak, and aren't likely to convince the
international community.

I invite you to re-read my message and to reply to its content rather
than to criticize its author.

	-s
From: condic@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: USTASHA GENOCIDE
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:10:08 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

If you love the truth, Good Morning!
 If you do not, no human communication is possible!

NO MORE LIES--Reposting #24

"To claim that ca. 700,000 [Serbs] were killed in the
concentration camp at Jasenovac is pure nonsense. One has
to ask oneself: How could it have been possible, when
within the borders of today's Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina
there were ca. 1,966,000 Serbs in 1941, and 1,610,000
in 1948--and this in spite of many migrations and many
killings not attributable to the ustasha?"
--Dr. Bogoljub Kocovic, World War II Victims in Yugoslavia,
(in Serbian), Veritas Foundation Press, London, 1985, p. 54.

-- 
************************************************************
ANYONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION ON ANYTHING,INSTANTANEOUSLY! BUT,
OPINIONS, AS SUCH, ARE GENERALLY WORTHLESS, UNLESS THEY ARE
WELL-GROUNDED ON SOUND EVIDENCE AND VALID ARGUMENTS! J.CONDIC,
E-MAIL:CONDIC@GW:WMICH.EDU;GEN.STUDIES,WMU,KALAMAZOO,MI 49008
*************************************************************
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Stopping Another Holocaust
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:32:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Aug14.083239.14722
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Aug13.162244.17350@risky.ecs.umass.edu> curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.083403.14657@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>...
>>
>>So you have a last word.  I have not seen a single clear statement why 
>>is what is happening in Bosnia not a civil war, but aggression.
>>I want to hear an argument if possible.  Probably not.  
>>
>>Regards,
>
>	Maybe you did not see a single clear statement because you keep your
>eyes closed, like some other proliferant (ex)writers on this group.  Open
>your eyes, and maybe you will start seeing something.
>

Mr. ( Dr.?) Curcija. please list them, so I can read them.
Would you?  

>Dragan
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Historia  Magistra  Vitae  Est
>___________________________________________________________________________
>

Milan
From: jovanovic-nick@CS.YALE.EDU (Nick Jovanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Serbian Agression
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:38:57 GMT
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158

In article <HF.92Aug17154653@demisec.informatik.uni-kl.de> hf@informatik.uni-kl.de (Harald Fuchs) writes:
>> Let the Serbian people remember the lessons of Dresden.
>
>Many people consider the bombing of Dresden as an allied war crime.
>I hope you don't want to use the same methods as the Serbians in order
>to teach them civilization.
>--
>
Unfortunately, the Serbian people remember all too well the "lessons"
of Hitler's Luftwaffe in WWII, when Belgrade was bombed without mercy
and turned into a burning inferno for refusing to bow to Nazi fascism
in April 1941.  

On March 25, 1941, the Yugoslav government had signed the Tripartite Pact
with Germany, an act considered by many to be treasonous.  The
Yugoslav government was overthrown on March 27, 1941 in a bloodless coup
led by Yugoslav military officers in the name of King Peter II 
Karageorgevic, the 17 year old son of King Alexander.  [King Alexander had
been assassinated in 1934 by the Croatian Ustasha while on a state visit
to Marseilles, France, and named in his will a Regency to rule until
his son, King Peter II, was old enough to assume his full powers.  The
Regency consisted of Prince Paul Karageorgevic (King Alexander's cousin),
Dr. Radenko Stankovic, and Ivo Perovic (both from Croatia).]  

After the coup, King Peter II dispensed with the Regency and assumed
full power.  The Yugoslav participation in the Tripartite Pact was
declared null.  In England, Winston Churchill remarked, "Early this morning
the Yugoslav nation found its soul.  A revolution has taken place in
Belgrade."  At last, a country on the European continent had resisted
Nazi intimidation.  Unfortunately, Yugoslavia was not prepared for a war
with Hitler.  Nevertheless, this was a humiliating diplomatic defeat for
Hitler, and he sought revenge on the Serbs who had embarrassed him in
front of the world.

This is why Belgrade's buildings and civilians were brutally bombed 
and murdered between April 6 and April 13, 1941.  This is why Hitler's
forces during the subsequent occupation of Yugoslavia murdered 100 Serbs
(military, civilian, men, women, and children) for every German soldier
killed.  

A different "lesson" was given by Hitler to Zagreb.  On April 10, 1941
the Germans entered Zagreb where they were treated to a heroes welcome.
The fascist Independent State of Croatia was jubilantly proclaimed, and
laws were passed "banning Serbs, Jews, and dogs from entering parks, 
restaurants, and public transportation services of Zagreb."  The solution
to the 'Serb problem' was, "We shall kill some of the Serbs, we shall
expel others, and the remainder will be forced to embrace the Roman
Catholic faith.  These last will in due course be absorbed by the Croatian
part of the population."   
 
 
Reference: [1] The Serbians, by Paul Pavlovich, Toronto, 1988.


-Nick

           
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7975 misc.headlines:5619
From: young@ursa.UUCP (Eric Youngblood)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,misc.headlines
Subject: Re: More Sarajevo notes
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:28:20 GMT
Organization: Bear Stearns, NY
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:
 [stuff deleted]
: it's worth going there to see, because the newspaper photos
: don't have enough of a field of view to suggest that any
: substantial damage at all has occurred, is spite of story after
: story of huge bombardment. In the NY Times you would at least
: expect to see photos of destroyed historic buildings, since the
: Times audience is much concerned with preservation of history
: and culture. As for the TV clips, which I haven't seen, I
: suspect that they're mainly about people running around
: frantically, (on cue?) not about destruction of real estate.
: Tape the newscast on a VCR; play it back frame by frame... see
: if I'm right... 

The video they are broadcasting on CNN's Sunday night World Report seems pretty
explicit.  You don't need to play it back frame by frame to see the damage.

Additionally there are plenty of foreign newscasts (especially short-wave radio)
that will back up the assertion that the destruction is not a creation of the
American media.

Eric Youngblood

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: POKORNY@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de (POKORNY DAN)
Subject: Anybody from Dobrovnik/Croatia to COMPSTAT, Swiss?
Organization: University of Ulm, Germany
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 21:04:11 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

Dobar dan,

I wish to contact anybody from Dubrovnik (or Dalmatia, or Croatia at least),
where the last statistical symposium COMPSTAT has been held,
who intends to go to the current COMPSTAT in Neuchatel/Schwitzerland
next week.
I will greatly appretiate her/his opinion to a certain idea I have got.

Thanks

Dan Pokorny, Dept. Pychotherapy, Univ. of Ulm
pokorny@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Expulsion of Serbs in Croatia
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:25:03 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Zoran Draskovic (draskovi@usc.edu) relays a report from the Information
Center of the Serbian Council. In interest of brevity I have heavily
edited the original article.
>         After a period of substantial investigation, the
>Information Center of the Serbian Council is now able to publically
>state that the case of depopulated ethnic Serb villages in the
>Slavonska Pozega region has reached the number of twenty-four (24)
>certified cases.

As proof for this statement ICSC provides census data for these
24 villages, and an order from The Crisis HQ of the Slavonska Pozega
municipality, of October 29th, 1991. Futhermore they say:

>         THESE PARTS OF CROATIA WERE UNTOUCHED BY WAR OPERATIONS
>AND CROAT FORCES MAINTAINED FULL CONTROL OF THEM AT ALL TIMES.

I have to say that as an unitiated reader I am not very convinced. In
October 1991, war was raging both east and west of Slavonska Pozega,
and it seems conceivable to me that the risks that it would (rapidly)
spread to this region were not ignorable.

What is more interesting though, is that it is difficult to find any
substance that this was an ethnically directed operation. The order
covered 24 villages, whereor 22 with a Serb majority, but also two
mainly Croat villages. If the intentions where to clear the area
of Serbs, why were not the Croat villages saved?

And if it really was a case of getting the Serbs away, then explain
paragraph two in the order:

>         2. People will move out to other settlements within the
>Slavonska Pozega municipality of their own choice.

Also, the text from ICSC talks of seizure of private property, but
there is no coverage in the order (and no other facts seem to be
provided). Instead it says:

>         3. This Order comes to force on October 29 1991 at 12
>A.M., and its duration will depend on the calming down of the
>situation in the given area.

I would like to add I don't think that cases of so-called ethnical
cleansing have not occurred on the Croatian side, but I don't think
the document presented here is a very convincing one.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
From: s8923098@macnab.mqcs.mq.oz.au (Josef WIDJAJA)
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Organization: Macquarie University, School of Mathematics, Physics, Computing and Electronics
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:15:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.181853.7807@sunbim.be> sk@sunbim.be () writes:
   ....
|
|   What the E.C. told the Macedonians in Lisbon is identical
|to what the Aboriginal band "Yothu Yindi" sufferred at the
|Catani Bar in Melbourne. Then the world condemned Australian
|Policies & Discrimination, and soon after the band swept
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What's that? I don't understand.

|up the Music Awards.
|
|   This same world condemnation will soon come down upon the
|E.C. like ten tons of bricks. Shame Australia. Shame E.C.
|
|

Make sure you know the facts first before you open your mouth
next time. The average Australian found that incident offensive
when it occupied the newspapers headlines for several days. The
owner of the bar was so embarassed that eventually he read out
public apology because almost everyone in Australia, from the
Prime Minister to housewives in suburbs was outraged. Australians 
should be proud with the way the whole affair was handled.
 
--
 _________Josef Widjaja____________  
|  s8923098@mackay.mpce.mq.edu.au  |
|  Macquarie University, Australia | 
|__________________________________| 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe