HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wung@eecom.gatech.edu (Peter Wung)
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Reply-To: wung@eecom.gatech.edu
Organization: School of EE, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, GA
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 19:49:11 GMT

In article 12756@panix.com, sieh@panix.com (Twinkie Chinkie) writes:
>|In article <1992Aug22.193550.10259@ee.gatech.edu> wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu writes:
>|>>[whole exchange between Peter and JJ deleted.  Re: advantages of having 
>|>>"White" skin]
>|>My problem with you is that you are insistent that being white in this society
>|>gives you no significant advantage, which is absolute hogwash!  
>|              ^^^^^^^^^^^
>|
>|I think that the whole disagreement between Peter and JJ and Clare and JJ
>|centers around this crucial word.  Generally, it's accepted that having white
>|skin will allow one to enjoy a certain status in American society.  Likewise,
>|having a non-white skin will prevent that person from attaining a certain
>|level of status which only whites can ever reach.
>|
>|I also think both sides have legitimate arguments.  The point being that
>|Peter and Clare are portraying the race side of discrimination and JJ is
>|raising the point that there is a lot of economic discrimination which is
>|less race conscious.  
>|
>|//Twinkie Chinkie
>|-- 
>|//Lui Sieh
>|Dum loquimur, fugerit invida Aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum postero.  
>|Horace, Odes, I.xi.7;	<-- "Why post to USENET?" -Brian O.  Indeed.
>|What about my opinions? ==>> /dev/null	or  sieh@Panix.COM


I would concur with Lui's assessment of the arguement, the fact is I am convinced 
that the detriment incurred by racism is greater than that of class discrimination 
and jj is convinced otherwise.  So I believe we are at loggerheads, therefore we 
should go on with our lives.  I am sorry I was unable to convince jj of the
validity of my arguements and I am sick of it all.
---
****************************************************************************
*Peter Wung				Email:wung@ee.gatech.edu	   * 
*Electric Power Laboratory		Snail mail: 33787 Ga. Tech Station * 
*School of Electrical Engineering		    Atlanta, GA 30332      *
*Georgia Institute of Technology				    	   *        *Atlanta, Georgia							   *
*   	"Pass, Set, CRUSH!"...						   * 
*  	Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad for a short, fat guy.  		   *
*									   *
****************************************************************************
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Asian/Asian American Conflicts
Keywords: Michael Jordan,  Leprosy
Date: 29 Aug 92 20:59:20 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <17k9voINN345@network.ucsd.edu> hirota@sluggo.sdsc.edu (Bryan Hirota) writes:
>Maybe it's a difference in Chinese/Japanese thinking?
>
>Most of my Chinese friends seem to think like you.

I suspect the difference may be in the attitude of the "old country."
Chinese culture encourages overseas Chinese to think of themselves as
Chinese and generally accepts overseas Chinese as Chinese and in fact
encourages them to think of themselves as Chinese.  

I have been told that the Japanese attitude toward overseas Japanese
is different, and that native Japanese are less likely to see overseas
Japanese as Japanese, especially if they are descended from some
non-Japanese.

There are several reasons for these differences:

1. China has had large numbers of overseas Chinese for over 400 years
now.  By contrast, Japan has had overseas Japanese for only about 100
years, and there have been comparatively fewer of them.  

2. China is much less heterogenous a country than Japan is and places
less of an emphasis on group conformity.  The result of this is that
Chinese seem to be more tolerant of differences among Chinese than
Japanese are among Japanese.  

3. Closely related to 2), the boundary between Chinese and non-Chinese
is a very fuzzy one in the minds of most Chinese.  By contrast, the
boundary between Japanese and non-Japanese seems to be rather sharp
among Japanese.

4. Finally, overseas Chinese have been important politically in the
history of China.  The 1911 Revolution was financed almost completely
by overseas Chinese.  (In fact, Sun Yat-Sen was in the United States
trying to get funding when the revolution broke out.)
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Date: 26 Aug 92 09:30:29 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

There is a curious paradox that's crept up once again...........

Everytime there is an argument between "whites" and AA activists, I've
invariably found myself on the side of the "whites."  From this, one
would expect that I would be the ultimate twinkie and be in favor of
complete and total assimilation and always wishing I were white.

But that's not the case at all.  I'm probably as far away from a
twinkie as you can get, and I'm quite adamantly non-assimilationist.
I consider myself a Chinese born and raised in the United States, and
if you put me into a room full of graduate students who had just come
from China, it would be fairly difficult to distinguish me from them.
I will almost certainly marry someone who speaks Chinese, and I will
try to raise my kids up to be Chinese.  If the political situation
improves there, I might even consider trying to get a job in China.

And yet despite this, I consistently find myself on opposite sides of
an argument with most AA activists, and I consistently find myself
defending the establishment.  My attitude toward people has always
been that I'm both Chinese and an American and if they can't deal with
that it's their problem, not mine.  And the few people who do have
problems with me are people who are not in any real position to do me
any damage.  After all, if a computer manufacturer has problems being
"on the same team" with me, he or she is going to have serious
problems dealing with their suppliers in Hong Kong or Taiwan.

Perhaps part of the reason I don't agree with AA activists, is that I
don't in anyway see myself as a minority.  If you look at the "big
picture," (i.e. the entire world) I'm not.

So what's going on here??????

Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.african.american,ca.politics
From: spiff@bert.eecs.uic.edu (Jason Leigh)
Subject: Re: Asian Cop Murders White Woman in Asian Chancellor's Home
Organization: University of Illinois, Chicago
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:46:45 GMT

In article <65066@cup.portal.com> Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com writes:
>Asian Cop Murders White Woman in Asian Chancellor's Home
>
>Craig Chew, an Asian Male Heterosexual policeman shot Laura Marie
>Miller, also known as Rosebud Abigail Denovo, in the home of the
>the Asian Male Chancellor of UC Berkeley, which had seized People's
>Park. Denovo, a white woman, sexual preference unknown, carried a
>machete, presumably to persuade the Chancellor to change University
>policy.

Arthur, is this something that you quoted from some newspaper?
It's kind of ambiguous since it indicated that she wanted the
Chancellor to change university policy but didn't really indicate
what policy in particular.  I assume from the sentence below
that you mean the "problem" of having too many Asian Americans
at Berkeley.

>Asian Americans compose over one-third of the student body
>at Berkeley, and are generally politically conservative and hostile to
>progressive causes.
>
><back to reality>
>
>Sounds pretty absurd? Is this any different than how the Rodney King
>case was handled? Heck, a band of merry protesters trashed cars and
>bulletin boards and windows to protest the death of this looney case
>as a martyr, and I'm demanding to know why they're not calling this
>a case of racism and sexism.

I got kind of lost here too. I assume when the woman died she
became a martyr and presumably there was a riot of some kind.
Well since there are protestors, and they're not protesting racism,
or sexism, then what are they protesting?  

Can you tell us a little more about the events that occurred?

Jason Leigh





-- 
---------------------------------------------------------  ___
| The opinions expressed above are necessarily those of | \\     \\  | \\
| the Electronic Visualization Laboratory, NAAAT!       |  \\---  \\ |  \\
| Send Replies to: spiff@bert.eecs.uic.edu (Jason Leigh)|   \\____ \\|   \\____
From: edhall@rand.org (Ed Hall)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Date: 29 Aug 92 20:48:41 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: RAND Corporation.

In article <BtrDI9.HD1@rice.edu> kerryg@stat.rice.edu (Kerry Go) writes:
>The parable referred to in another post is:
> . . . .
>  But outwardly you
>will not be recognizable to anyone you now know.

This is the crux of my problem with this "parable." I'd put a pretty
high price on this kind of disruption to my life, irrespective of any
racial change.  My life is a fabric of interpersonal relationships,
from my wife and parents and friends down to the hundreds of people
who know me, who have helped me or whom I have helped in the course of
daily existance.  The parable as told does nothing to dispell the
feeling that these will be lost or severely disrupted--whether the
change in body involves race or not.

Maybe its because I'm 38 and have grown into my life, but 10 million
seems puny faced with the loss of this interpersonal web.

		-Ed Hall
		edhall@rand.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson)
Subject: Re: Degrees of racism (was Re: Caucasians don't understand)
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:39:49 GMT

In article <23594@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj, clueless old white boy) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.030738.29613@panix.com> sieh@panix.com (Twinkie Chinkie) writes:
>>anything, it shows that racism affects a
>>lot of people and regardless of color and ethnicity.  Furthermore, those who
>>have been affected will want to see that it doesn't happen to them again and
>>work to change it.  And, it's better to talk to thse people than to people
>>who don't care because they haven't experienced racism before and who are
>>probably more resistant to change.
>
>And this is my point about separatism.  If you choose to be separatist,
>and adopt a jingoistic "whites are evil" cant like Dodwy (like it or
>not, that's what he's saying he's decided), you will alienate these people
>and get neither their help nor the value of their experiences.
>
Whites are evil ??? I've never said that.... To borrow a phrase commonly
used by whites who are accused of being racist....Some of my best friends are
white...The fact is that WE are alienated anyway... If "WE" don't sit back
and say how much we want to be like whites then we are alienating ourselves?
I don't think so. I don't see whites trying to get to know my people by
coming to my community or attending black colleges. I don't see whites
coming to the dance clubs I go to but yet and still this is viewed as
OK by whites... WHY ?? The seperatism isn't coming from us. We are 
expected to assimilate while the same isn't true of you. That's the 
problem I have. We are suppose to begg you to let us live next to you,
attend your schools while you give us a hard time when we do these things.
I don't think so.... Tell me ...when was the last time you were the only
white person at a dance club or a course ??

>In addition, you will have a very hard time convincing them that you
>aren't what they hate, i.e. racists.  The answer that Sze and Jackson
>provide is "we don't care, it doesn't matter".  I suggest that
>history, eastern, western, and african, suggests that "we don't care"
>is the fastest way to a war outside of religion.
>-- 
You got that right. The problem is that we aren't going to take abuse by
whites just so that we can be accepted by you...PERIOD.
From: hirota@sluggo.sdsc.edu (Bryan Hirota)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Asian/Asian American Conflicts
Keywords: Michael Jordan,  Leprosy
Date: 27 Aug 92 04:53:28 GMT
Organization: San Diego Supercomputer Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: sluggo.sdsc.edu

A question was posed to the net about why some Asian Americans
find themselves more at odds with their soulmates than with the
great white devil (HEY ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE, that was a joke. chill.)

I thought I'd give my two cents on this topic.

The poster (Joe, right?) said that he felt that he was Chinese and his
tour in America was not necessarily a permanent thing.  This would
be a source of friction with me, because I feel (as I think many others
do) that I am here to stay. I will raise my family here, as did my parents,
as did their parents before them.  If you feel Chinese, then you are
an Asian, not an Asian American.

Another thing that irritates me is to hear 1rst generation Asian Americans
going off to great lengths about how Asian American culture is merely
an immigrant culture, and that with time we'll be able to fit it with
the rest of white America.  My family has been here for nearly 100 years,
I'm still waiting.

We are not white, and we are not Asian, either.  We are something completely
new,  and we need to forge  our own identity.

And to all the white posters (and the asian one's too) who say that being white
gives them no special advtanges.  I agree.  But being white does not 
hinder you in the way that being black/hispanic/asian/etc does.  I really 
don't care if you got shunned in Taiwan because Taiwan does not proclaim
to the world that it is ready to accept the tired, yearning to breathe free.
Maybe, if I wasn't constantly bombarded with how America is the beackon of
democracy to the free world,  I wouldn't feel so disillusioned today.

Well, that's that.  Hopefully, I didn't ramble too much. Have a nice
day.

Oh one last side note:  there is a male anchor on a local news station
here in San Diego.  Kent Kinoshita.  Don't ask me what channel, I don't
know.

and I just heard this on the radio by this Disk Jockey who earlier
organized a smashing (with a steam rollar) of Japanese products....
(this just happened, right now! aren't you excited? this is like live 
reporting...  HEy!... maybe I could be an anchor?)

It was during a commercial for an ESL course (English Second Language)
"We don't care what your language is .... Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees
look at these...."


Wonderful.  I'm gonna bury an axe in this guy's head one of these days.

Hug a Tree.

Bryan Hirota	-	hirota@sdsc.edu		-	bhirota@ucsd.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.asian.american:8748 soc.culture.african.american:9132 ca.politics:7350
From: achin@math.tamu.edu (Andrew Chin)
Subject: Re: Marketing to AAs
Originator: achin@math
Organization: Texas A&M University, Dept of Mathematics
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:17:58 GMT

Kerry Go (kerryg@stat.rice.edu) writes:

>It's bad business to advertise to anyone when the demographics
>would not be favorable for you to do so, "right" or not.

Calling Dr. Nordstrom ... (melindac@thedarktower.Corp.Sun.COM) writes:

>Advertisers are out to make a profit.  They want to make money;
>they aren't out to make social commentary.  If they see a growing
>and more affluent Asian buying public, they'll target them to get
>them to spend their money and that's all the advertisers care about.

But why do you both assume, as the advertisers do, that ads featuring
AA spokespeople and realistic characterizations would be inherently
targeted only at AA people?  This is certainly not true of ads
featuring African-Americans in recent years.
-- 
Andrew Chin    Dept. of Math.    Texas A&M U.    College Station, TX 77843
achin@math.tamu.edu   Probably not TAMU's exact opinions.   (409) 845-1924
                * Fighting racism is not a special interest *
From: timlee@public.btr.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Grad School Applications Re: Racial Discrimination Re: Perceptions,
Date: 30 Aug 92 20:43:24 GMT
Reply-To: timlee@btr.com (Timothy J. Lee)
Followup-To: soc.culture.asian.american

wung@eecom.gatech.edu writes:
|Experience 2
|
|I was applying to graduate schools and I wrote letters to all the schools I was considering to ask for information.  In this letter I told them the following:
|I went to a public high school in the US, I attended a prestigious american public 
|university for all four years of my undergraduate education, and my status as
|a naturalized US citizen.  None of that seemed to have mattered much since most 
|university took one look at my last name and sent me TOEFL informations and applications for foreign students.  It was not until after I had spoken to 
|the people in charge of admissions with my midwestern twang that I was able 
|to get the proper information I needed.

Hmmm, could you elaborate more?  My vague memory of grad school
applications recalls that they often appeared to send the same packet
to everyone, domestic or foreign ("if you are a foreign student,
please include this extra form and sent TOEFL scores...").

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee                 timlee@btr.com  ...!decwrl!btr!timlee
This message comes with no warranty, not even an implied warranty of
fitness for any particular purpose.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: soc
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 20:13:32 GMT

In article <23606@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj, clueless old white boy) writes:
>Then you tell him he has no political power.  You tell him that
>he doesn't belong because he's a "visitor", and you wil "tolerate"
>him.  You tell him he is forbidden from telling "Americans"
>to "get lost", in the context of his telling them that they can
>just accept him as he is.  You tell him, a-priori, that they will
>tell him to get lost.  Heck, if he listens to a few more good
>'merkins like you, maybe he'll believe you, using YOU as the proof
>of the fact.

  Because visitors do not have political power anywhere.  If I
  visit Germany, can I vote in their elections?  If I visit China
  can I go and change their laws?  If I visit Russia, and I
  tell them to get lost, what do you think they'd tell me?

  Don't be naive.  Each country reserves political power to
  its own citizens.
>
>How does it feel to be your own conclusive proof that americans
>are bigots, Clare?

  True, America does not allow HIV+ people to get visas.
From: hirota@sluggo.sdsc.edu (Bryan Hirota)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: AAs in prison
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:14:42 GMT
Organization: San Diego Supercomputer Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: sluggo.sdsc.edu

Well if you're doing hard time, being considered
effeminate will probably be the least of your worries.

Chances are, that if you're locked up in a Federal
Prison, you're not.

Your biggest problem would probably trying to avoid
getting attacked by some blacks who might mistake
you for being Korean. (Then again, you might *be* Korean)

I think I remember reading about a similar incident, somewhere.

If you all *REALLY* want to know, I suppose I could track
down some people I know, but that would take work, and
I generally try to avoid that.

Bryan Hirota	-	hirota@sdsc.edu	-	bhirota@ucsd.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee)
Subject: Re: Michael Woo, L.A. mayoral candidate
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 00:11:24 GMT

e <l9q275INNi68@news.bbn.com> ahsiung@labs-n.bbn.com (Anita Hsiung) writes:
>  It's about time we had serious
>contenders against Bradley, who has become terribly corrupted.  (What
>on earth kind of business did he have travelling to Japan three or
>four times in the past couple of years??)  
   All in all, Bradley has been a terrific Mayor, and if he
weren't black, he would've won his race against Dukemajian 
for Governor 8 years ago.  Ostensibly, he could have served
his years as Governor and would have been a good presidential
or VP candidate.  I always think of him as the best example of
someone of color who could not "be all he could be" because
of his race.  
   
>>Michael Woo came across as being quite personable and energetic.
>An LA County Supervisor, Gloria Molina, has announced her campaign.
>She is Latino (as her name suggests) and she is quite active in the
>arts around LA, the different cultural activities, music, that sort of
>thing.  She was also highly visible after the Riots.  Maybe another
>Councilman, Zev Yoroslavsky (or whatever his last name is) will be
>running too.
     Of the three candidates you mention, Zev is probably the
most talented and influential.  Woo will give him a good run.  
Molina doesn't have the smarts. 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: AAs in prison
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 12:50:03 GMT

In article <17jgk2INNjt7@network.ucsd.edu> hirota@sluggo.sdsc.edu (Bryan Hirota) writes:
>Well if you're doing hard time, being considered
>effeminate will probably be the least of your worries.
>
>Chances are, that if you're locked up in a Federal
>Prison, you're not.

  Tough or not, everyone there is tough.  The only
  thing is that they gang up based on race and your
  numbers are insignificant.  It is tough for any
  prisoner who is shunned by all of the gangs.  You
  basically have to join one of those gangs or
  build a real tough reputation to go it alone.
  You don't want to be a squealer or collaborate
  with the prison officials if you want to live.

  I'm afraid (although I have no hard facts) that
  Asian prisoners might be looked on as patsy or
  stool pigeons by both the guards and other prisoners.
  Sort of that "model minority" syndrome???  I'd
  be real leery of going to a prison given how
  I'm pretty sure I'm less than 1 percent of the
  prison population.  I would not want to have to
  seek "protection" from any of the gangs because
  that means getting screwed by them literally.

>
>Your biggest problem would probably trying to avoid
>getting attacked by some blacks who might mistake
>you for being Korean. (Then again, you might *be* Korean)

  Not just the Blacks, but also the Aryan Brotherhood,
  the Mexican Mafia, and of course the Crips and Bloods
  and other what-have-yous.  These guys know each other
  from the hoods and have connections both inside and
  out of prison.  You're going in there basically alone
  and an outsider.  Unless you've been active in gangs
  before going to prison, you won't know anyone to
  stick with.
>
>I think I remember reading about a similar incident, somewhere.
>
>If you all *REALLY* want to know, I suppose I could track
>down some people I know, but that would take work, and
>I generally try to avoid that.
>
>Bryan Hirota	-	hirota@sdsc.edu	-	bhirota@ucsd.edu

  My general knowledge is gossip from people in my high
  school who know of people who're incarcerated.  But
  I don't have any firsthand knowledge or know anyone
  who does.  So take it with a grain of salt.