From: fil@me.utoronto.ca (Filippo A. Salustri)
Subject: Re: Can engineering be automated?
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 01:34:59 GMT

tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav) writes:

>========================================
> fil@me.utoronto.ca (Filippo A. Salustri) writes:
>>>myers@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bob Myers) writes:
>>>Now, is anyone sufficiently tired of stating two of the possible answers to
>>>this question so as to give REASONS for their answers?
>>
>>	People giving reasons are also encouraged to preface them with some
>>definition of engineering (and/or engineering design).  Most of the dispute
>>arises from our various *differing* definitions.
>>

> Definition/Description :  
>	 Engineering is one of the intellectual means to 
>	  -  identify, comprehend and eliminate misery
>		(medical engg, pharmaceuticals etc.)
>	  -  identify, comprehend and solve problems (sustain happiness)
>		(production engg, maintenance..)
>	  -  create value and happiness
>		(optimization, synthesis, concept development...)
>	  -  explore and understand the unknowns/universe/..
>		(develop design theories;focus telescope for 
>		 polyacetylenes in space...)

	This is not a bad start, in my opinion.  More detailed responses
should in all fairness to their authors be presented in some more official
capacity, say a journal, so they get credit for their work.  But people who
think definitions like this are sufficient -- and there are lots of them --
have missed the boat.

> The degree to which engineering can be automated is proportional
> to: (a) how well that aspect of engineering is understood (b) whether
> the tools have been developed. 

	Funny, the way engineering seems tied to human cognition.  That's
why I suggested originally in this thread that it can't be completely
automated.  But that's also why I suggested that we must never stop trying
to understand more about it than we do now.

> What we don't understand yet (and hence can't automate):
>	Identification of problems (don't confuse with sensors/control engg)
>	Comprehending the problems
>	Defining what is value
>	Exploration

	A comment and a question here.  First, the comment: finding the
definition of `value' is not only tied to the clean, well-lit scientific
(for lack of a better word) area, but also to ethics.  I am forced to wonder
whether engineering has to get involved with `messy' ethics, or whether,
conversely, ethics could (should?) be clean.  This could open all sorts of
cans of worms; and I'm not sure this is the right place to discuss them.
But I thought I'd mention it.

	The question: by `exploration', you mean exploration of design
alternatives?  If not, I'm not sure what you mean.

> What we do understand, to varying degrees (and can automate):
>	Solving a defined problem
>	
> Since we are evolving organisms, our means (engineering e.g.) will also
> evolve. And so would: whats next to automate? Endlessly.

	This is a fair assessment.  However, there is an implication that
engineering would evolve in a manner similar to our own evolution.  I think
we can do better than that.  That is, engineering is contrived, a human
construct.  We can do with it as we will, so we should not settle for
anything like nature has to offer, in terms of evolution, and (re)define
engineering to be whatever we need it to be.  It is evolution, to be sure,
but not the relatively arbitrary kind that the poor old human race has had
to put up with go get where we are.

> Did I miss something?

	Sure you have.  I wouldn't even know where to begin.  I've been
wondering about this problem for 4 years, and I have something on the order
of 500 pages of typed notes; but I'm no where near an answer yet.  I don't
blame you; this kind of thing can take up a whole lifetime (maybe more!)
Just don't give up.

>T.Y.
>----
>tyadav@athena.mit.edu

Cheers.
Fil Salustri (fil@me.utoronto.ca)
-- 
Fil Salustri	fil@me.utoronto.ca		UUCP: ...!utai!me!fil
                                     A is A
Newsgroups: sci.engr