HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: raxco!galaxy.dnet!gleeve@uunet.UU.NET
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Moving DDTs etc.
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:22:19 GMT
Organization: Macro32<==>Vmsnet.Internals Gateway
X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List

I'm inclined to agree with Jon Pinkley's extensions to my suggestions
about moving DDTs into intercept UCBs. (And yes, I meant DDTs, not
DDBs...too many of these darn three letter acronyms occasionally
fry my brain when posting...)
   While such suggestions cannot be enforced, having a number of folks
publically promise to follow them (and I will in some code I'm developing
for starters) will help to create support for the standard. In the
case where nothing else is using the method, no problems will ensue.
If we have a case where two programs try to steal the same resources,
we have currently no way to interoperate and have only the options of
refusing to work at all, or of crashing a system. Proposing and living
with a standard gives all developers a third and better alternative.
The fact that some will not get the word, ever or at least not for a
while, is not a reason not to begin. I will store the messages for
the sig tapes and hope some of us can get some intercept code out
there also.
   As for Alpha drivers, I have too little information, but suspect
something like this is desirable. In a new design I'd ask for some
customer queue headers in UCBs, in the exec, and in IRPs that would
be usable for add-ons and which would have some sort of identifier
scheme written into a standard so they could be used by multiple,
relatively uncoordinated designers. (By "relatively uncoordinated"
I mean that identifiers might collide but the probability of this is
low.) The user SYSGEN parameters in the current VMS are an interesting
start but are too risky to use for purposes other than for one
specific site...too likely they'll be clobbered by someone else's
code/data. Someplace to hold kernel tables that's faster to find than
a lock value block or logical would however be a win.
   For altering driver flow, I'd say that the present suggestions
look very good and we should spread them around.
Glenn
Everhart@Raxco.com
From: munroe@dmc.com (Dick Munroe)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: DR bad, VAX PRO good
Date: 5 Sep 92 11:34:25 EDT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Doyle, Munroe Consultants, Inc., Hudson, MA

In article <n5mn#n=@lynx.unm.edu>, boardman@cancer.unm.edu (Bob Boardman) writes:
> 	While VMS probably has not run on a PDP-11, I have a PDP-11 which
>   could be made to run something like VMS - it's an old 11/60, which with
>   the WCS/UCS option (writable control store/user control store), allowed
>   one to actually program one's own microcode.  I imagine that given enough
>   time, one could have it running VMS after a fashion.
> 	I don't have the time, though!  ;-}

Just for historical interest, VMS (then called Starlet) DID run on a PDP-11 at
first.  It was a specially microcoded PDP-11/45.  As soon as the VAX prototype 
hardware was available they stopped using the 11/45 and switched over to the
VAX prototype.  To the best of my knowledge this was the only PDP-11 that
actually ran "VMS".
-- 
Dick Munroe				Internet: munroe@dmc.com
Doyle Munroe Consultants, Inc.		UUCP: ...uunet!thehulk!munroe
267 Cox St.				Office: (508) 568-1618
Hudson, Ma.				FAX: (508) 562-1133

GET CONNECTED!!! Send mail to info@dmc.com to find out about DMConnection.
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
From: avk@hafnium.cchem.berkeley.edu (Tony Konashenok)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Re: Unix on PDP-11's
Date: 14 Sep 1992 05:52:27 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hafnium.cchem.berkeley.edu

Sorry for wasting bandwidth, but can't help reminding a joke which is
very ad hoc:
 - What is the difference between hardware and software?
 - In the course of time, hardware gets faster, smaller and cheaper;
   software gets slower, bigger, and costlier...
-- 
Tony Konashenok   avk@hafnium.cchem.berkeley.edu   (510)527-7524 (home)
University of California, Berkeley                 (510)642-5831 (office)

Strauss research group, Latimer Hall, UC Berkeley, Berkeley CA 94720, U.S.A.
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
From: varsik@suncub.bbso.caltech.edu
Subject: Making BRUSYS Tapes on RSX11M+
Reply-To: varsik@suncub.bbso.caltech.edu
Organization: Big Bear Solar Observatory, Caltech
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:25:24 GMT

I am not able to make a bootable BRUSYS tape on our observatory's
PDP-11 system.

This is my hardware configuration:

	PDP-11/44, 4 MB RAM with a QNIVERTER UNIBUS to Q-bus adapter
	System Industries 9751-C disk (emulates RA-81) with UDA-50
		controller
	Tandberg TDI 1050 tape with Western Peripherals TC-130
		controller (emulates TU-10)
	Cipher 990 tape with Emulex TC03 controller (emulates
		TK-25)

and I'm running RSX-11M+ version 3.0D.

Although the tape drives can boot various diagnostic tapes, I can't
seem to make a BRUSYS tape that will work.  If I attempt to
boot from a BRUSYS tape I have made using the VMR SAVE command,
the tape advances slightly from load point and freezes.
I get no message from the console.

I use the procedure in the BRU manual to make the tape (when logged in as
SYSTEM):

	> ALL MT0:
	> MOU MT0:/FOR
	> SET /UIC=[6,54]
	> RUN VMRM42
	ENTER FILENAME: BRUSYS
	VMR> SAVE MT:BRUSYS
	VMR> <CTRL-Z>
	>

How can I make a BRUSYS tape that will actually boot?  I have
a couple of other disk drives with systems on them that I don't
normally use that I can boot from in case of a crash, but I would
prefer to be able to boot from tape if necessary.

We use this system for telescope and instrument control.  In some
ways it still does a better job for us than a VAX, and it's paid for.

John Varsik, Big Bear Solar Observatory
varsik@suncub.bbso.caltech.edu
From: terry@spcvxb.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Re: UNIX for 18-bit pdp-11:s...
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:33:40 GMT
Organization: St. Peter's College, US

In article <9209130203.AA63508@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, petrilli@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Chris Petrilli) writes:
> On anything less than a high-end PDP (ie. 11/70, 11/84, etc..) I think
> RSX is a much better route.  Even RSTS would be a better choice than
> Unix.  I have payed with various Unix implementations on the 22bit
> machines, and while usable, I just don't think that it's going to cut
> it for most people.  I guess working on a 50+MIPS RS/6000 spoils me,
> but I still enjoy playing with older machines.  However, the problems
> come about in that V7 and early BSD (pre 4.2) are not well supported
> any more by PD code, much less good compilers.

  22-bit addressing and I/D are pretty much a must these days for _any_ multi-
user PDP-11 operating system. While (for example) RSTS/E V10.0 will still run
on an 11/34 w/ 128Kw and no FP, a _lot_ of work was done by the developers to
make it fit. And the definition of "fit" is: RSTS, no loaded overlays, 1 RTS
and 1 user at swap max.

  I run both RSTS/E and 2.11BSD Unix on PDP-11's. I'm the other half of the
"sms and tmk PDP-11 Unix conspiracy". We have real people running real code on
the PDP-11 Unix.

  With a few man-years of effort, PDP-11 Unix could be reworked to support
ANSI C, programs up to 4Mb, functions up to 64Kb, and data of up to 64Kb per
element (char foo[65535]). Steve and I have discussed this and we agree that
it's doable, and we've even designed it at the top level. However, it's not
obvious that anyone would commit to doing the work, or to running the result
of the project (for many of them, the current implementation is just fine).

> My experience with the C compiler that is on the PDP is pretty bad.
> Last I recall, not only does it have quite a few bugs but it also
> generates pretty bad code.  I don't want to discourage anyone, just
> tell them what they are getting themselves into.

  Which C compiler? DECUS C, DEC's PDP-11 C, or the 2BSD C? DECUS C has a bunch
of quirks and is stuck at "classic C". DEC's PDP-11 C is a lot less buggy, but
doesn't optimize as well as it could. 2BSD C is good enough to compile the en-
tire 2BSD OS and utilities. I've actually done a complete compile of _every-
thing_ on 2BSD, twice.

	Terry Kennedy		Operations Manager, Academic Computing
	terry@spcvxa.bitnet	St. Peter's College, Jersey City, NJ USA
	terry@spcvxa.spc.edu	+1 201 915 9381
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: PDP system (almost) free to good home
From: daffy@physics.monash.edu.au
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 14:37 +1000
Organization: The Internet
Return-Path: <pat+@transarc.com>
X-Envelope-To: info-pdp11%transarc.com@munnari.oz.au
X-Vms-To: IN%"info-pdp11%transarc.com@munnari.oz.au"

Howdy there,

I have a DECSystem going almost a begging in Oz.  I have just bought a house
and no longer have the room for it, so if someone is willing to cart it away,
then they can have it.  The following items are available:


DECSystem:
	PDP-11/23+

	256k memory

	2 x RL02 hard disk drives

	1 x RX01 floppy drive (external)	<- $30 , that's what it cost me

	RT-11 V5.05 system with FORTRAN

	about 160 Megs worth of hard disk packs

	a filing cabinet drawer of floppies - these need to have the timing
	marks rewritten on them ( they were degaussed to erase them!)

I also have a complete manual set for RT-11 5.4 and two sets of system disks
(RX50's) which I bought for $150.  These are just out of the shrink wrap, and
have been used once (still in the DEC shipping box!)  Closest offer gets them.

As well, any lucky takers get to pick over my shelf full of DEC manuals,
hardware, software, architecture, etc.

The rules are: first come first served, you pick it up.

I can be contacted on the following:

Email:		daffy@physics.monash.edu.au
		daffy@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au

Voice:		(03) 836 1102	(Home - there's an answer phone)
		(03) 565 3620	(Work - in and out of the Lab, see above)

Snail:		5/13-15 Maling Rd
		Canterbury, 3126
		Victoria, Australia


Cheers,

Daf.

PS.	If you are out there Andrew Stewart, call me!  You get first dibs on
	all the stuff, since you helped me aquire it!!

Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
From: sspatter@netcom.com (Samuel Scott Patterson)
Subject: Re: PDP-11/34 need UNIX (summary)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 23:52:51 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Keywords: UNIX PDP

Wow!  I've been quoted! :)  *bow* *bow* :)

BTW, anyone got a spare M7856 card they'd be willing to part with?
Mine's fried.  An SMD drive would be cool too but I won't push. :)

						-Scott

---------------------------------------------------------------------
sspatter@netcom.netcom.com
Samuel Scott Patterson  365-J Western Drive, Santa Cruz CA 95060
(408)459-6790
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Re: Unix on PDP-11's
From: Chris Petrilli <petrilli@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 13:16:05 -0600
Organization: The Internet
Return-Path: <pat+@transarc.com>
CC: INFO-PDP11@transarc.com, John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu


>>>>> On Sun, 13 Sep 92 10:23:52 -0700, mcc@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (Merton Campbell Crockett) said:

Merton> Regardless of operating system or user environment one
Merton> prefers, a PDP11 is a nice machine to use to learn
Merton> programming.  Not coding that one can learn on any platform
Merton> but programming where one has to make rationale (or
Merton> irrationale) decisions about how resources are utilized and
Merton> learn the techniques needed to write efficient software on any
Merton> platform that you might later use.

I have to agree, as I have seen way too many Computer Science majors
who thinks it's better if they use MORE memory and MORE system
resources.  That doing so somehow implies that their program is
somehow `better' than something that someone else did in 1/10th the
space.  I won't get into a diatribe about CASE< but I think that it
exemplifies the need to teach tight code, and working coded over some
``religious'' ideal that bigger is better.

Chris
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Re: UNIX for 18-bit pdp-11:s...
From: Chris Petrilli <petrilli@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 21:03:15 -0600
Organization: The Internet
Return-Path: <pat+@transarc.com>
CC: info-pdp11@transarc.com


>>>>> On Sun, 13 Sep 92 2:30:41 MET DST, Johnny Billquist <bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se> said:

John> Now, I personally think RSX is much more fun than UNIX, but I know
John> I have some UNIX lookalike on an RM02 pack. I think it is Venix,
John> but I'm not totally sure. This pack was probably used on an 11/60,
John> which means it should work fine on an 11/34 as well.
John> I also know of a system called Idris, which was a Unix lookalike,
John> but usable on an 18-bitter. I might have V7 lying on a pack.
John> I'm not really sure about any of this, but if people are interested,
John> I could look into it a little more.

On anything less than a high-end PDP (ie. 11/70, 11/84, etc..) I think
RSX is a much better route.  Even RSTS would be a better choice than
Unix.  I have payed with various Unix implementations on the 22bit
machines, and while usable, I just don't think that it's going to cut
it for most people.  I guess working on a 50+MIPS RS/6000 spoils me,
but I still enjoy playing with older machines.  However, the problems
come about in that V7 and early BSD (pre 4.2) are not well supported
any more by PD code, much less good compilers.

My experience with the C compiler that is on the PDP is pretty bad.
Last I recall, not only does it have quite a few bugs but it also
generates pretty bad code.  I don't want to discourage anyone, just
tell them what they are getting themselves into.

Chris
--
| Chris Petrilli                                             ____
| petrilli@gnu.ai.mit.edu             ``Quayle is a bozoe.'' \  /
| I don't even speak for myself.                              \/
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Unix on PDP-11's
From: john_wilson@mts.rpi.edu
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 12:46:04 EDT
Organization: The Internet
Return-Path: <pat+@transarc.com>

Just a quick reality check here -- what's the point of running Unix
on a PDP-11??!!  If you're extremely lucky and have an 11/94 or something,
the best you can hope for is that you won't even notice that you're on
a PDP-11;  more likely, the 11's slow speed will remind you continually
of Unix's inefficiencies (HOW can an OS which is as stripped-down as the
Unix kernel have trouble fitting on a 124KW machine?!).

If what you're going to be doing is in a portable language on a portable
OS, you'd be much happier doing it on an old Sun (the prices are getting
quite reasonable for used ones) or something with a similar performance:
power consumption:size ratio;  the only difference you'll notice is that
it works better/faster/cheaper.  The only point I see in having a PDP-11
(and I have six) is for doing things which it does well, like letting a
user job handle interrupts under RT or RSX (I built a MIDI adapter for my
11/34 and it has no trouble keeping up with input interrupts at 31.25kbaud,
under RT;  try that under Unix -- but why would you bother?  device control
isn't Unix's bag), or running realistic timesharing under RSX or RSTS;  our
high school used to run 5-6 users all day long under RSTS on our 11/34a,
sure it was slow but it sounds like we would have been lucky to be running
at all under Unix.

My point isn't to dump on Unix, but rather to dump on caring what hardware
you're running it on.  PDP-11's have many strengths, which some OS's go
to great lengths to exploit, but Unix strikes at the 11's weak points instead.
PDP-11's are a good place to mess with the 11's neat hardware (ever seen
a refreshing vector display on a generic Unix box?), or mess with the 11's
neat OSes (address windows, asynch I/O, vector ownership/jam lists (boy
could MS-DOS use that!), dynamically loadable/unloadable device drivers etc.),
or mess with the 11's neat instruction set (even the 68K/VAX/Z8000 attempted
clones seemed to miss the point of complete symmetry).  A SPARCstation is
a good place to write huge C programs.

John_Wilson@MTS.RPI.EDU
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
From: frank@rover.uchicago.edu (Frank - Hardware Hacker - Borger)
Subject: Re: UNIX for 18-bit pdp-11:s...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Reply-To: frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Organization: Joint Center for Radiation Therapy
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:51:00 GMT

In article <9209130822.AA15000@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM>, <sms@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> writes...
> 
>	A 70 is a "labor of love" these days - it was the last of the
>	"real computer" since it had a front panel mit lights and switches.
>	Gads i miss having a 70 but the house wiring and my budget can't
>	stand one.  

	If you live in snow country, they can help heat your house!

	Still remember the following the following conversation at one
	DECUS meeting, in a question and answer session.

	Person at the mike:	OK, can you tell me any really good reasons
				for canning our PDP11/70's?

	Developer:		Well, for one, you'll save a lot of money
				on power costs.

	Person at the mike:	Maybe you didn't listen when I introduced my-
				self, I said "I work for Ontario Hydro-electric

   Frank R. Borger - Physicist    __       Internet:  Frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Michael Reese - Univ. of Chicago |___      Phone : 312-791-8075 fax : 567-7455
  Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _   The President has a big belly. His
                                   | \|_)  brains are not proportioned to it.
    "Birthplace of Softball"          |_)  J. Sterling Morton of G. Cleveland
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: TU10 commands???
From: Todd Enders - WD0BCI <enders@plains.nodak.edu>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:39:54 -0500
Organization: The Internet
Return-Path: <pat+@transarc.com>


     Well, I finally have a tape drive & controller for my soon to be
completely operational pdp-11/23.  At any rate, the controller I have
emulates a TU10 (Dilog 130 to a CIPHER F880).  Could any kind soul out there
tell me the register addresses and command sequences to get data in/out of
this setup?  Many thanks!!!

===============================================================================

Todd Enders - WD0BCI                  ARPA: enders@plains.nodak.edu
Computer Center                       UUCP: ...!uunet!plains!enders
Minot State University                  or: ...!hplabs!hp-lsd!plains!enders
Minot, ND  58701                     Bitnet: enders@plains

     "The present would be full of all possible futures,
      if the past had not already projected a pattern upon it" - Andre' Gide

===============================================================================
From: bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: UNIX for 18-bit pdp-11:s...
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:44:25 GMT
Reply-To: bqt@bern.docs.uu.se
Organization: The Internet
Return-Path: <pat+@transarc.com>

I lost whoever it was that asked about UNIX for the 11/34, but
I think this might be interesting to a few more people, so I'll
post it to everyone.

Now, I personally think RSX is much more fun than UNIX, but I know
I have some UNIX lookalike on an RM02 pack. I think it is Venix,
but I'm not totally sure. This pack was probably used on an 11/60,
which means it should work fine on an 11/34 as well.
I also know of a system called Idris, which was a Unix lookalike,
but usable on an 18-bitter. I might have V7 lying on a pack.
I'm not really sure about any of this, but if people are interested,
I could look into it a little more.

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se       ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
From: secrist@kxovax.enet.dec.com (Strong datatypes for weak minds.)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: V7 once upon a time
Date: 13 Sep 92 19:16:20 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


	Old UNIX packs are probably very much like old RSX packs --
	the system wasn't generated for an 11/34 and may not run on
	one.  If you could find somebody else with one working then
	I would expect there might be some chance.  I've got some
	crashed packs from my 11/45 that ran V7... and most 11/34s
	are probably better configured than my 11/45 was.

	As to slamming RSX, that is just so much religion as to
	philosophy and we would not profit from a flame war here
	of that type.

	I know VENIX made it to the Pro/380, but I've never seen it
	anyplace else.

	Yunno, RT-11 is pretty sweet... and it's much easier to get
	booted from j-random media.

	Regards,
	rcs
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Cipher F880 tape questions...
From: Todd Enders - WD0BCI <enders@plains.nodak.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:56:17 -0500
Organization: The Internet
Return-Path: <pat+@transarc.com>


     I find myself in possesion of a Cipher F880 tape drive.  The plate on
the back says:

     Mod. No. F880640-90-10250     Speed 100/25IPS
     Part No. 961255-001           V ~   120
     Option   B 86                 Amps  3.0
     Cust No.                      Watts 220
     Density  1600BPI              Hz.   50/60

     From this, I suppose the drive is 1600 bpi only.  There is a "HI DEN."
switch on the front panel, but it doesn't appear to do anything.  Now, for
the questions:  Anyone with a Cipher catalog know what option B 86 is?  I
assume the 100 ips rating is for spacing/seeking, and the 25 ips is for
read/write.

     It seems like a nice sturdy drive, it appears to work and all, and the
best part is that I got it free!  Anything you can tell me about the care
and feeding of this beast would be most appreciated.

     On the feeding theme, I've noticed that full-size reels mount fine, but
the smaller sizes don't always seem to want to take up, esp. the smallest
(600 ft, I believe).  Is there a filter on the vacuum that loads the tape?

     Many thanks for any and all info!

===============================================================================

Todd Enders - WD0BCI                  ARPA: enders@plains.nodak.edu
Computer Center                       UUCP: ...!uunet!plains!enders
Minot State University                  or: ...!hplabs!hp-lsd!plains!enders
Minot, ND  58701                     Bitnet: enders@plains

     "The present would be full of all possible futures,
      if the past had not already projected a pattern upon it" - Andre' Gide

===============================================================================

Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
From: zcookbruc@cc.curtin.edu.au
Subject: Re: Serial and bootcard help wanted
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 09:23:35 GMT

In article <brumby.715517864@nella11.cc.monash.edu.au>, brumby@nella11.cc.monash.edu.au (Stephen McNamara) writes:
>    I have recently been given the pieces and some documentation for a
> PDP-11/03-L which I am trying to get running. Having never encountered
> a PDP before I am not getting very far.
> 
>    The first problem is the 4 port serial card for which I have no docs.
> It is marked M8043 and is supposed to be set with one port at 9600 baud
> as the console. Can anyone tell me which jumper connections I should check
> to see if this is so? So far I haven't been able to get anything from the
> card.
> 
>    The other board about which I have no docs is the bootstrap/bus terminator,
> maarked M8012-YA. I'd like to know whether the 5 lit LEDs means all working
> or all dead. :-) I'd also like to know what the switch settings are.
> 
>    If I can get to the ODT prompt I will undoubtedly be back with more
> questions. Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> -- 
>      The Silver Brumby of          brumby@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
>       the Silicon Plains
> 
>       The grass is always greener on the other side of the network.

The two boards you specified are the DLV-11J quad SLU, and the BDV-11
boot terminator.

I don't have the appropriate book at hand, but they should be fairly
common where you are and are essential when fiddling with one of
those systems. 

The books that are relevent are:

Microcomputers Interfaces Handbook	<- This is the one you asked for
Microprocessors and memorys

If you're realy stuck, send me some mail, and i'll post the relevent
jumpers, and might organize (If i can find one) a spare manual.

...BRU
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11