HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: Why alt.folklore.computers should stay in alt (was: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 02:47:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.174519.18637@u.washington.edu> starfish@stein.u.washington.edu (Sarah Skovronsky) writes:
>mdw@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Matt Welsh) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Nov5.000856.15656@pollux.lu.se> magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson) writes:
>
>>[Tons of good discussion about moving a.f.c mercifully slain]
>
>>If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's no reason to quibble about moving
>>a.f.c. Maybe it wasn't put in the "right place" to begin with, but for now,
>>a.f.c is so deeply rooted in the USENET hierarchy that I can see no reason
>>to change it or move it elsewhere. Doing so would only damage its present
>>propagation and sense of unity. 
>
>Yes!  I agree completely.  I still fail to see the reason for the hassle
>of renaming a newsgroup just so a few more people can read it.  Those who
>say "it's not a hassle" and assert that a change of name does not change
>the character of a newgroup are misguided, IMHO.  Moving an alt group
>lets more people read/post...which is obviously a change of character,

In this case, moving alt.folklore.computers would almost certainly CUT its
readership.  Right now it's in the top 8% of all groups int erms of
readership.  Apparently many sysadmins are risking the alt. sewer to carry
it.  If it were moved to comp.society.folklore, we'd get the old argument
about that kinda stuff not belonging there.  Moving it would have to
really work wonders if it were to get read by more people.  It gets read
PLENTY right where it is.

>unless all these new people are clones of those who were there before.
>Call me xenophobic if you will, but I don't think "mainstreaming" for
>mainstreaming's sake is such a great idea.  As has been stated above, 
>a move would disturb any "sense of unity"...and...if it ain't broke...
>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@elxr.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:13:39 GMT

[Note...this is not me but someone who's asked me to post for them.]

Presumably this is being posted for me to news.groups by Dave Hayes...

I oppose the name change on the grounds that I don't feel that I was informed
enough to vote 'no'.  I have been an active participant in r.m.s. for about
6 years.  It is the only newsgroup I receive.  I get it by e-mail from a 
private (unattended) mfeed from BBN (where the person who set it up for me has
left for anouter job at a non usenet site).  I have access only to a VMS 
machine and 'military-restricted' internet.  For me the acronym CFV meant
nothing until the current discussion.  Accordingly, the use of a meaningless
acronym in a subject header with a reference to rec.music.makers, a newsgroup
I have little interest in, did little to enhance my perception that the
message was important and would affect the name of r.m.s.  Because I have no
general access to usenet, and I have never been taught what the acrtonyms
CFV and RFD mean, I can't see how people can say that I had an 'opportunity
to vote'.  There is no way, that I can think of, that I could have known
that a CFV appearing in r.m.s. affects r.m.s. simply because it appears there.
I often get e-mail (throught the r.m.s. feed) which is crosspostings from other
newsgroups including rec.music.makers.  Since I have found these posts to
generally be selling some new CD, or the like, I have learned to ignore them.
I am willing to bet that that there are a lot of other people who were
ignorant of the meaning iof the CFV, and are equally justified in being naive.

John Rossi III
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: "BAD" music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 16:24:54 GMT

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>I and a number of other people have suggested (and no one responds to  
>these postitive suggestions) that the guideline should be that subject  
>lines for discussions and votes should DIRECTKY state what existing  
>newsgroups they would affect. Is this too difficult? At least it's a  
>suggestion.

>I can't imagine a valid reason for a "no" response to this suggestion.

 Subject: CFV: Making of rec.music.makers.guitar, rec.music.makers.bass, rec.music.makers.guitar.tablature, rec.music.makers.percussion and renaming rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth.

-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 21:20:59 GMT

In article <7770@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)  
writes:
> 
> It is as close as we'll ever get to the expressed will of the net.
> 

An idea has been proposed that would make it *closer* to the will of the  
net but you shot it down under the guise of a miniscule increase in  
bandwidth usage.

Gordon
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:46:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: charnel.1dp3jiINNqve
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

Loki writes:
>picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu writes:
>>No.  This is not the job of rec.games.frp.misc/dnd.  Their job currently
>>INCLUDES this, but it is not their sole purpose.  Most of the traffic I
>>have seen on these two groups is rule-oriented rather than campaign-oriented.
>   Face it... discussion of role-playing campaigns includes *all* of
>role-playing, outside of tournament-style one-shot adventures.

So r.g.f.campaigns should include *all* of roleplaying.  We have r.g.f.
all over again.

>   This is the key problem a lot of the r.g.f.c advocates seem to have
>missed...

Not just a "me too" mesg, but this is a step back to the old behemoth.
Well, maybe not, seeing as it will moderated. =)  (smirks)

-- 
Menu, n.:
	A list of dishes which the restaurant has just run out of.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ijaz@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tahir Ijaz)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:09:43 GMT



The role of the moderators of Soc.rel.islam.ahmadiyya will be:1) Screen articles posted to the newsgroup for any evidence of abusive lang-
uage, especially personal attacks and insults.
2)  The moderators will encourage healthy debate on various issues, and opinions
will be invited.  There are always more than one way at looking at many issues,
and the readers will benefit from it.

While there are other responsibilities moderators have, the above two are the
most important.

Dr. Tahir Ijaz
Faculty of Medicine, University of Manitoba.
(One of the proposed moderators of Soc Rel Islam Ahmadiyya).
-- 
=============        ======     ============      ==       ========
     ||                ||            ||         //  \\          // 
     ||                ||            //        ========       //
     ||       0      ======     =====        //        \\  ========   M.D.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Dropping out (was: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 03:46:51 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> A lot of people dropped away from r.m.s when they heard about the name 
> change...they aren't big flamers or posters like me (and I'm not so big)...
> but they really didn't like the fact that some non-participants got to 
> decide where they continued their discussion so they cut themselves off
> from it all. Is that what the net wants to happen?

Hey, I didn't like it when net.auto was renamed to rec.autos -- but I
didn't suddenly decide to stop reading news.  And neither did 98% of the
net readers.  What's with the synth people?  Are they interested in synth
discussions IF AND ONLY IF the group is called "rec.music.synth"?

> It's not just a small collection of computers exchanging articles
> anymore. It's a whole village of people. If we keep alienating those
> who are ignorant or meek, what are we becoming?

I certainly have a hard time visualizing why people with a strong interest
in a particular area would drop out just because the name changed.

Then again, I'm not the all-seeing and all-knowing Dave Hayes.

[ \tom haapanen    "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca                   "trust the programmer" -- ansi c standard ]
[ waterloo engineering software      "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Resonex Inc., Sunnyvale CA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:08:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.000935.2031@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>Well then, I guess you'll appreciate it when I say that there are probably
>hundreds more who cannot email who's opinions are just as important. What
>makes you able to vote in spite of them?
>[...]
>I would also like it if some way were made so that those out there on
>the BBS echos could vote their minds also. 

People hooked into r.m.s via a gatewayed mailing list or BBS or other
such thing are NOT affected by the name change.  Only those who read
the group on Usenet, or those responsible for maintaining the gateways
are affected.  Now if the gateway admin cannot handle the name change,
that's *their* fault, and a new gateway admin should be found.  But
to the users beyond the gateway, any name change is (and should be)
virtually invisible.

-- 
Michael Bryan  michael@resonex.com  "Milk and Cheese in '92!"  |     ,_,
"There's nothing quite like watching your most recent          |    /oo \
crush, and your second-most recent crush, rushing into         |    <>__|
each others' arms..."  --- Miss Almira Gulch                   |    |  U|
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout)
Subject: Re: CFV Ahmadiyya Newsgroup
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:37:40 GMT

Hi

I saw the CFV on soc.religion.islam but did not see it on this newsgroup nor on
the other soc.culture.* groups ?
Is there a problem.

Also who appointedthe receiver of the vots and how was the choice made ? Is there
a way to verify the vote count aside from trusting him.

(Sorry but this is not meant as a sign of mistrust to the vote receiver as it is
meant as a way to insure that the vote count is cone in a good way).
I guess we should appoint more than one vote recipient and voters will have to
send the same message for both recipients, then the recipients will give their
results and if they match then we can say that the vote was O.K. Also it is
preferable that the recipients of votes be from all opinions (i.e. with or
against the newsgroup) so as to ensure that there is no bias in any way.

rached
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: minnotte@stat.rice.edu (Michael Minnotte)
Subject: Re: Call for "Straw" Votes: Rec.games.frp.campaign
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Dept. of Statistics, Rice University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:45:32 GMT

In article <Bxnru1.MLE@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> 
cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>
>It was stated very clearly that the purpose of the Straw vote is to 
>confirm that their are people interested in this group.  This is being
>done as several people have claimed that no one supports the group.  This
>is despite my announcement that I have received supporting netmail.
>
>How many people are against the group is not relevent to the Straw poll.
>If more than 100 people respond to the Straw, there will be a CFV, even
>if 10,000 people responded "no" to the Straw.  THE STRAW IS NOT A FORMAL
>CFV.
>

It's statements like this that have cost you any respect in the
r.g.f.* groups. If a reasonable person received evidence that there 
was substantially more opposition to the group than support for it,
he or she would save the net the trouble and expense of voting it
down by quietly withdrawing the proposal.

Folks, ignore his request not to send no votes.  Maybe if enough
people send them to him, it will get through to him why they also
deserve consideration.

Bruce, if you ask for no votes as well and come up with even close
to as many yes's as no's, then by all means run your vote.  But if
you get overwhelming opposition and then insist on running a vote,
you deserve whatever you get.

Mike Minnotte

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Name of the Ahmadiyya newsgroup
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:38:28 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.165410.30645@davidsys.com> merchant@davidsys.com (Rukhsana Merchant) writes:
	   Some questions that I have:

   1) In regards to voting on the issue of name of the
   newsgroup, Does a vote go into effect after the name has
   been decided?
   (in other words, Is the objection to the name first clarified before
   the issue of the acceptance of the group is put to vote?)

The voting will start when someone posts a CFV (call-for-votes) for
the group. A certain time (30 days I think) must elapse after the
posting of the RFD until this can be done.

   2) Where do we sent our votes?
   3) Who tallies up the votes?

Both of these questions will be answered in the CFV.
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson                            Internet: lhe@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science           Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263                                        Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28  KISTA, SWEDEN                         Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: Bjorn.B.Larsen@delab.sintef.no (Bjorn B. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Discussion request: Keeping soc.religion.* flat
Reply-To: bjorn.b.larsen@delab.sintef.no
Organization: delab
	<1992Nov10.042436.28854@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>
	<1992Nov10.225423.3753@muddcs.claremont.edu>
Date: 11 Nov 92 11:15:14


IMHO soc.religion.* _is_ flat, so why all the noise??

On the other hand, I prefer logical naming in place of some incomplete
naming, just because of .... (insert the reason why somebody want
soc.religion.* to be flat, so far I have not noticed any.)

If we get hundreds of new groups under s.r.* I would have problems
navigating if they were all at the same logical level. The RFD-period
is the right time to decide if the CFV will be with a 'flat' name or a
hierarchical name. Just note what happened to the proposed
soc.religion.christian.mormon, it ended up in the CFV as
soc.religion.mormon. That was based on comments and a straw poll
during the RFD. (The group failed, and not because of its flat name,
but that is another story.)

In article <1992Nov10.225423.3753@muddcs.claremont.edu>
irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:

> [ ... ]

>Let me give a couple of non-controversial examples of what I'm suggesting.
>On the left side, I have groups which might be created in a non-flat
>soc.religion hierarchy; on the right, a corresponding name in a flat
>hierarchy:

>soc.religion.christian.protestant       soc.religion.protestant
>soc.religion.christian.catholic         soc.religion.catholic
>soc.religion.christian.greek-orthodox   soc.religion.greek-orthodox

That was a bad proposal. First I see no reason why anybody should want
to split s.r.c, and secondly, if we were to split the group, I would
prefer your listing on the left.

>I've just thought of another problem, though: what about controversial
>groups whose names are a generic adjective and a supergroup? For example,
>Messianic Jews? soc.religion.messianic isn't not entirely descriptive, but
>if non-Messianic Jews don't think Messianic Jews are Jews, they'll be
>politically opposed to soc.religion.messianic-jews or .messianic-judaism
>(too long) or whatever.

This problem will not be solved by a flat hierarchy. If a group shall
be created, it must be possible to indicate its contents by its name.

>I guess it falls to the proposer of a group to come up with a political
>acceptible group name. Keeping soc.religion.* flat pushes people in that
>direction, but obviously still can't force anything.

Right.

> [...]

Bj{\o}rn
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: This has nothing to do with .campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:39:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.203852.23146@timessqr.gc.cuny.edu> EPW@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (E Wong) writes:
> 
>    I am also a reader and contributor to cbnorman's Fidonet AD&D echo
>and I am familiar with the campaign games that go on over there.
>Although some of the material is very well written, I largely skip over
>those messages on the Fidonet because I have little or no interest in
>those games. (I have also petitioned cbnorman to make it easier for me
>to FILTER out those game posts when I download my messages). When I am
>neither a player nor the judge, my interest wanes.

You must also acknowledge though, Eliot, that the majority of readers of
the FidoNet AD&D echo do not share your feelings in this matter.  Also,
with .campaign, there would be no problem filtering out messages, as
you could simply not join the newsgroup.

Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: rej@sal.wisc.edu (Randy Jones)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Space Astronomy Lab, Madison WI
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 22:37:03 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.060600.22559@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>If newsgroup names _really_ don't matter, it would be wrong to speak of a bad
>newsgroup name--ever.  Yet, I'm sure you recognize that there is such a thing
>as a bad newsgroup name; for instance, I doubt you would approve of
>sci.aquaria.manga.music.synth.  This position just isn't consistent.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey, that's a good one! Can we just use it and call it a day?

-- 
| Randy Jones           | 
| rej@bob.sal.wisc.edu  | 
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.frp.misc
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: RESULT: rec.arts.poems.urdu passes 303:145
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:26:01 GMT

Jay> == Jay Maynard <jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu> 

 Jay> Once again, proof that a soc.culture.foo group will always pass if
 Jay> the people belonging to the foo culture want it.

 Jay> Even if the group is in rec.arts.poems.

"But I didn't realize that it would pass!  I want a revote!"
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:00:05 GMT

In article <7754@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>This would be the first time that agonized screaming would have
>reversed a vote that had NO procedural irregularities.

What about rec.arts.sf.creative?
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.asean
From: smustopo@nyx.cs.du.edu (sofjan mustopoh)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 07:17:39 GMT


    There call for a separate news group for every countries
 in ASEAN is needless. Now after Alt.Cul.Indonesia has been formed
 almost all of the Indonesian gone there. If the trend continue
 guest who will be left here in S.C.A

     But I have to stress a point. Most Indonesian i Email
 with think that S.C.A does not suit their taste. After A.C.I
 formed all the Indonesian that a shy to post in S.C.A post 
 Hell and Heaven in A.C.I , But I think we have mostly hell
 with so many East Timor and portugese posting there.

      I really can't keep up with the Usenet News any more
 With my Interest in Ham Radio, Astronomy And Computer
 and my obligation to study. something has to go. and Usenet
 news reading will be cut further if all the discussion are c
 carried in three separate newsgroup.
      
      Right now my kill file is enourmously big. Just a suggestion
 can't we discuss other things than "I'm right you're wrong "

   Just to add my 1 dime ... since you guys been adding 2 cents



 -------   Found in alt.tasteless
           and  Comp.lang.c
           #include Gulf_war.h
           #include Saddam_hussein.h
           #include Bad_economy.h
           #include Mess_up_big_time.h
           #include ross_perot.h
   
           B -ush  -off
           C -lint -on
     
           {

           }

 Muskie
 Sofjan Mustopoh
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 8 Nov 92 20:04:41 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography

In article <1992Nov7.211004.2046@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>How dare we suggest that the guiedlines have a flaw or that the way they  
>were carried out could have been better? Do I see an "America Love it or  
>Leave it" bumper sticker?

How dare you ignore the entire proceedings and then whine about how the
result wasn't fair and you want to waste everyone's time by doing it
over. 

>As much to ask as making the subject lines clear. 

"RFD". "CFV". Very clear.

>In the REAL world if you received a California ballot that was labelled  
>Nevada, made to look like junk mail and at the bottom had a proposition to  
>rename California to usa.westcoast.california, I think the public would  
>have grounds for a complaint. Then again that wouldn't happen in the REAL  
>world...

If I received a California ballot labelled Nevada, I would certainly
read it very carefully to see how it affected me and why it was sent to
me. If, after reading it, I decided that I didn't care about anything on
it, I would not whine about how the results of the things I didn't care
enough to vote about turned out.

I probably WOULD vote to rename California, however.
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin