HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: FAQ proposal
Date: 14 Nov 92 19:49:32 GMT


 CX>   I would like to make a seperate lesson teaching the 
                              ^^^^^^^^
 "separate"

 CX> seperate.  (I would appreciate if someone who does ASCII
     ^^^^^^^^

 "separate"

 CX>   I would be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.

 Run it through a good spelling checker first....

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Irvine Clan Heraldry
Date: 16 Nov 92 13:58:25 GMT


 BI> 1.  How can I properly describe the coat of arms for the Irvine Clan?
 BI>      In non-heraldic terms it is:

 BI>           A white field, with a wide red stripe horizontally in the middle
 BI>           with clusters of Holly (2 equally spaced apart above the red, 
 BI>           and one centered below the red stripe).

 Well, to begin with, this design is not "the coat of arms for the Irvine
 Clan". The "Irvine clan" as such doesn't have a coat of arms; the base
 coat for the Irvines is that of their Chief, Irvine of Drum, which is
 "Argent three sheaves of as many holly leaves vert banded gules",
 illustrated on plate VII of Sir Thomas Innes of Learney's "Scots
 Heraldry". Each cadet of the family must matriculate a properly
 differenced coat with the Lord Lyon. The closest I've been able to find to
 the above design is Irvine of Newton (Lyon Ordinary v. I #2435), which
 uses an azure fess charged with three argent mullets (perhaps some
 connection with the Murrays...).

    Tim of Angle

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Fields of green (and blue, or gold and silver)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 23:54:44

 JG> Does this form a general guideline?  Does it apply 
 JG> to lozengy and chequey 
 JG> fields?  And if not, why not?
  Purely off the top of my head, I wouldn't apply it to lozengy & 
 chequey.  The color/metal distinction is for contrast.  You would 
 have to pick your colors very carefully for someone more than 10 
 feet away to be able to tell that the field was lozengy.  If you 
 always had control over the actual shade used in depicting it, 
 then you could have lozengy of, say, purpure and azure that would 
 be definitely purpure and azure and lozengy from a distance.  
 Most heraldry isn't set up that way (that you can select the actual 
 shade of color used).......
     Beth

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Fields of green (and blue, or gold and silver)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 19:18:33

 JG> Fields of two metals or two tinctures:

 JG> I've been talking about this lately, and could do with some advice.
 JG> It's been my understanding that when the field is divided into equal
 JG> parts the parts are considered to be side-by-side rather than charged
 JG> on top of each other, so they can be colour-and-metal,
 JG> colour-and-colour, or metal-and-metal.  Fox-Davies says "... a field
 JG> can be and often is barry of two colours or two metals..." and goes on
 JG> to assert that there must, in modern heraldry, be equal numbers of
 JG> pieces (p 120 of the 1978 reprint of the 1909 edn).

 JG> Does this form a general guideline?  Does it apply to lozengy and chequey 
 JG> fields?  And if not, why not?

 This is correct with respect to real-world heraldry. In SCA heraldry,
 Laurel has consistently ruled (and it was enshrined in the new Rules for
 Submissions) that fields divided of more than three parts (with a special
 exception for quarterly and per-saltire) must have "good contrast", which
 the Rules artificially (and, I think, erroneously) define as being of
 opposite tincture classes, i.e. one must be a metal and one a color.

    Tim of Angle

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: Bosnia & Hercegovina
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:24:13 GMT

In article <BxsB95.37D@well.sf.ca.us> dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood) writes:
>
>I caught a few seconds of TV news in which a map of Bosnia and Hercegovina
>was shown with a coat of arms that I did not recognize.  For all I know it
>was cobbled up by the graphics department to suggest the immemorial feuds
>that have plagued the Balkans, but it was good heraldry.

The National Geographic's most recent map of Europe features some 
of the newly hoisted flags. Bosnia is shown as having a field 
Argent, with an escutcheon bearing Azure, a Bend Argent, 6 fleur-de-lys
argent 2,1 at sinister and 1,2 at dexter. 

Note that Croatia has on its flag an escutcheon bearing chequey Argent
and Gules, dating back to the 16th century, but also used by the 
Croatian puppet regime in 1941-45, hence some bad feelings in this 
notoriously sensitive region.

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au ( Mark Richard Dewis)
Subject: Re: Imperial Eagles (was: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 05:14:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.045457.1@acad3.alaska.edu>, fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
>[...description of possible arms ...]   
> 
>Since i've always been told that the simpler the arms, the older, i'm wondering
>if perhaps what i'm looking at is the Hohenzollern arms, not my family arms. 
>The oldest records i know of for my family is a contract dated 1497, which
>mentions two brothers with the rank of Knight (the King of Sweden is the other
>party).
>
>I'm assuming that A)the Hohenzollern arms would be older than that, and B)
>someone would recognize such a basic pattern as belonging to some family or
>other a little more celebrated than mine.  Any info would be appreciated.

Heraldic protection did not and does not usually apply outside of a given
area, such as Scotland, France et cetera.  It is quite possible that your
family has held the same arms as those of the Hohenzollerns (much more
likely with simple arms in any case).  Whether or not any member of your
family has claim to those arms depends on:

1) The heraldic laws of the juristiction they were granted under

2) Who begat whom, as well as when and what sex, in the line of descent.

-- Mark Dewis, Tasmania.

-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit. 
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Please don't cross-post to rec.org.sca
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:08:13 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to request that you _not_ cross-post
articles from here to rec.org.sca.  A couple recent threads have done that.
Note that when you follow-up a posting here, you inherit whatever list of
newsgroups was used by the original poster.  Please check the newsgroups
line in your followup before you post it.

We have deliberately tried to keep minute discussions of heraldry off
rec.org.sca, because that newsgroup is devoted to general SCA discussion,
and because it is gated into a mail digest that is sent to several thousand
people, many of whom access the net through paid connections.

People on rec.org.sca who might be interested in modern heraldry know about
rec.heraldry and will come here for information.  People interested in
details of SCA heraldry should send their questions and comments to the SCA
heraldic mailing list, scahrlds@pucc.princeton.edu.  

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Imperial Eagles (was: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:54:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad3.1992Nov18.045457.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <BxwG72.688@well.sf.ca.us>, dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood) writes:
> 
> The colors of Prussia (sable and argent), by the way, are also those of the
> house of Hohenzollern.
> -- 
> Anton Sherwood                                          dasher@well.sf.ca.us
>     *\\*    Opinions mine, but available for lease at easy terms    *\\*
> +1 415 267 0685                 1800 Market St #207, San Francisco 94102 USA

This leads me to a question.  I have a photo of a coat of arms, supposedly
belonging to my family.  These arms are from a mantlepiece, and have not been
authenticated, although the piece has been with the family for some time.

I'll stay away from heraldric terms since i'm not fully familiar with them, and
describe the arms in `normal' terms- a silver shield, with a single horizontal
black bar across the middle, the width being roughly 1/4 the heigth of the
shield.
 
Since i've always been told that the simpler the arms, the older, i'm wondering
if perhaps what i'm looking at is the Hohenzollern arms, not my family arms. 
The oldest records i know of for my family is a contract dated 1497, which
mentions two brothers with the rank of Knight (the King of Sweden is the other
party).

I'm assuming that A)the Hohenzollern arms would be older than that, and B)
someone would recognize such a basic pattern as belonging to some family or
other a little more celebrated than mine.  Any info would be appreciated.

James Zuelow     (or variously, Tsueloe or Zu"low with the source)
FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Steiermark:(Re: Balkanic Heraldry)
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 16:05:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.111731.3403@odin.diku.dk> klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:
>
>
>>Steiermark, Vert, a goat clymant Argent, armed and tongued Gules. 
>
>Are you sure this is a goat? I have seen it used as an example of
>the heraldic panther. (The panther, like the tyger, is a monster.
>They are not at all like the real-life animals with similar names.)

Ian Heath, in his "Armies of the Middle Ages" gives this blazon for the Dukes
of Steiermark (Styria):

"Vert, a griffin clymant sans wings Argent, armed and fire issuant from its
 mouth Gules"

Hope this helped.


  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND              ++ Edward III. All you need is an  ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c43657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon.     ++
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Balkanic Heraldry
Date: 20 Nov 92 11:17:31 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:


>Steiermark, Vert, a goat clymant Argent, armed and tongued Gules. 

Are you sure this is a goat? I have seen it used as an example of
the heraldic panther. (The panther, like the tyger, is a monster.
They are not at all like the real-life animals with similar names.)

Klaus O K
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Date: 16 Nov 92 13:42:18 GMT


 EO> In the Time-Life series Great Ages of Man, in their book covering
 EO> Byzantium, there was a picture of a monastery in Greece flying what they
 EO> said was the Byzantine flag.  As nearly as I could figure out what it was
 EO> they were flying, it was: 
 EO>    Gules, a two-headed eagle displayed sable.

 The two-headed eagle was, so far as I know, primarily associated with the
 Holy Roman (post-Charlemagne western) empire; I know of no instance of its
 use by the Eastern empire.

 EO> Was that the right Byzantine flag, and was there any such thing as
 EO> Byzantine heraldry?  Among other things, I'm working on a GURPS game book
 EO> about Byzantium.  

 The only "Byzantine flag" I've ever seen is illustrated on p. 106 of
 Ottfried Neubecker's "Heraldry: Sources, Symbols, and Meanings". It shows
 a flag quarterly of "Argent a cross gules" and what are represented to be
 the family arms of the Palaeologoi, "Gules a Cross between four
 fire-stele's addorsed or". The latter, because of their resemblance to the
 letter "B", are suggested to represent the Palaeologos motto: "Basileus
 Basilewn, Basileuwn Basileuoin". It allegedly dates from a 14th century
 source, the "Conoscimentos de todos los Reinos".

 EO> Another question:  In SCA heraldry, can charges be "gerattie" (ie
 EO> scattered, but in a pattern with a definite number of them, instead of
 EO> "semy")?

 Typically, any number of charges above eight (and even six) is in danger
 of being reblazoned as "semy"; opinions differ on the desirability of
 exact specification of the location of that many.

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: ostertag@jeek (Peter Ostertag)
Subject: Turkey Trots in Milwaukee
Summary: Brew Town Runs 
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, CIS-AA - Ann Arbor MI, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:58:57 GMT

Does anyone know if there are any runs in the Milwaukee area around
Thanksgiving or the following weekend?

Thanks

Peter Ostertag
ostertag@aa.ab.com
From: fawcett@unix1.cs.umass.edu (Tom Fawcett)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: Semi-vegi diet
Date: 16 Nov 92 00:37:22 GMT
Reply-To: fawcett@unix1.cs.umass.edu (Tom Fawcett)
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst



You're better off asking this question in rec.food.veg rather than
rec.running.  Some of the answers given here are a little misleading, eg the
idea that you need to combine proteins is about 20 years old and has been
debunked.  If you eat any kind of a decent diet you get more than enough
protein without eating meat, and your body can combine it easily.

You should get the rec.food.veg FAQ list.  It answers a lot of questions and
clears up some of the common misconceptions.

-Tom
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: lesley@anasazi.com (Lesley Schaefer)
Subject: Beginner looking for training tips
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 06:33:02 GMT

Hi everyone,

I just started running about 6 weeks ago (although I had been exercising
in other ways previously) and today I finished my second 10k in 2 weeks
(it was great BTW).  I've decided I really like this running thing and
I'm going to stick with it, so from here I need to start some kind of
training program and that's where all/any of you out there could come in
handy!  I finished my first 10k in 57 minutes which I was very happy 
about since I had really only begun running about 3 weeks prior and was
convinced I probably would not be finishing at all, from there I prepared
for my next 10k (which was today) by continuing to run and increasing the
length of my runs from 41 minutes (the longest I ran before my first
10k, but it was a lot of uphill which probably explains how I was
able to make it 57 minutes during the race) to 60 minutes and I
guess that worked because I did improve my time today by two minutes.  
Now, where do I go from here?  I plan to participate in as many events 
as I can find/make it to and obviously I will be setting new goals each 
time for time improvement.  When I train Should I try to run longer each 
time or should I stay around 60 minutes and try to run faster each time?  
I was also thinking that some day (not too far away if possible) I would 
like to try a half marathon or a 10 mile run - again, how should I prepare 
and how long should I expect to train before I could make it that far?

Any tips or information would be greatly appreciated, being a beginner
I am just interested in learning as much as possible.  Oh, one more
thing - I don't want any injuries, I was wondering how long I 
should stretch before/after running and what kinds of things should
I do?

Thanks in advance for your information, and happy running!!!
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: cfthb@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Howard Black)
Subject: Re: Anodyne/Skylon/Exult-?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:18:09 GMT
Organization: Eastern Illinois University

In article <1992Nov20.133006.1@pomona.claremont.edu> mhespenheide@pomona.claremont.edu writes:
>Having followed the last few posts, I'll 
>probably try some Air Anodynes or Skylon II's, but I'd like to ask if anyone
>has good/bad reviews of the Asics Exults.  Are they worht the price?  How is
>the cushioning, and how is the support?

    I'm on my 7th or 8th pair of Exults, and (I guess obviously) like them
a whole lot.  They have great support and cushioning, although,
interestingly, they don't *feel* that "cushiony" or "bouncy".  As a
pronator with plantar fasciitis problems, I need good support and
cushioning, and the Exults have bee great on both counts.


-- 
   ******************************************************************
     Howard Black                             cfthb@ux1.cts.eiu.edu
     Department of Chemistry                  Eastern Illinois Univ.
From: gkc@freddie.udev.cdc.com (gordon k chace x2367)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: jogging in London
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:39:06 GMT

In article <98492@netnews.upenn.edu>, isler@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (L. Rosanne M. Adderley) writes:
|> For those of you who may remember, I am the "jogger with dumb questions"

The only dumb questions are the ones that aren't asked.

|> c) remember that it's fall, and convincing myself to go outside is a real
|> challenge--although jogging in the cooler temps is actually quite pleasant

I think this a matter of personal preference.  I rather like running
in the winter.  I'm in Minneapolis so the winters are for real.  The running
paths are less cluttered with dogs and baby carriages.  A fresh layer of
snow produces zillions of sparklies when the sun comes out.  etc, etc, etc.

|> Beginning in January, I will be spending 5 months in London on a research
|> trip.  I am seeking advice on issues pertinent to the casual jogger.
...
|> rosanne adderley

I vacationed in London once for a few weeks.  I did so much walking to all
the museums, etc, that there was no need to run for exercise.  From
my street-level observations I would say that the well-known areas of
London are safer (from crime) than most large American cities.  But
it is quite crowded, especially near any Tube (what Americans call "subway")
stations.  So to avoid pedestrian collisions you might want to do your 
running in the parks, some of which are quite large and scenic.  There is
one near Harrod's that has a lake you can circumnavigate, and horse
riding trails also.

I believe that it is commonly recommended that you avoid football (what
Americans call "soccer") crowds, who can be unruly during and after a game.

Oh, and remember they drive on the other side of the street.  Just before
you step off the curb, you'll habitually look the *wrong* way, see nothing,
and jump right in front of a car!

Also note that winter temperatures are quite moderate compared to cities
within the central regions of the USA.  I was there in February and never
encountered freezing temperatures and the grass remained green during the
off-season.  I was also there for one day in late September and could walk
comfortably wearing bluejeans and T-shirt.

The fastest transportation is the Tube.  Second fastest is bicycling, third
is running/walking.  Street vehicles are slowest, thanx to congestion.

The only thing I disliked about London was that food prices looked just the
same as at home, except the currency was 2/3 again more valuable!
-- 
Gordon K. Chace
Control Data Systems, Inc.   phone (612) 482-6524   fax 482-2791
email: gordon.chace@cdc.com or gkc@udev.cdc.com
RISC: Really Invented on the Sixty-six-hundred by CDC
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: Re: ITB trouble
Keywords: knees, ITB, injury
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 07:07:11 GMT

Beth,

My wife was standing behind me while I was reading your mail and
she, being of the exercise science degree (next term), suggested 
that you do slow, controlled squats or half-squats (don't go down
to 90 degree bend) so that you build up the muscles surrounding the
knee joint.  I've had knee surgery on both my knees to correct a
congenital defect and part of my therapy has been that as well.
Building up the thigh muscles will greatly take strain off the
knee by keeping the knee more stabilized.

Good Luck!

allen (and valerie)
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: joed@mozart.cbs.umn.edu (Joe Dalsin)
Subject: Walking vs. running
Organization: U of MN Herbarium
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:42:12 GMT

I was having a good argument with a co-worker about the value of
walking for fitness.  He seems to think that anything short of
a 8 minute mile can't be called a workout.  

So what's the scoop?  How does walking compare to running
for fitness value?  Calorie burning?  Weight loss? Muscle tone? etc..

Joe Dalsin
joed@mozart.cbs.umn.edu 
-- 
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//  You can't trust big business so brew it at home.
//                                        
//  Joe Dalsin                     %_%%%______                   
Xref: sparky rec.running:3268 news.answers:4139
From: perel@dhhalden.no (PER ERIK LARSEN)
Subject: re:mysterious runners death in Sweden
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:08:37 GMT

  Well, it is not wrong to say that this has made many orienteers very 
afraid.Not only in Sweden, but also here in Norway.The papers has written a 
lot about this the last weeks.Orienteering is not a sport that media is most 
interessed in, but the last week there has been more orienteering in the 
papers than it usually use to be in a period of ten years.
  The fact is that we don't know anything about the main reason for these
deaths.There has been focusing at a bacteria called TWAR, a bacteria they
have found in the body of some of the earlier victims, but they are not sure 
about this.
  The mysterious about this, is that this has happend to well-trained people
in their best age. The last victim was member of the very strong swedish 
national team, whose members now have been told not to train and compete.
  I hope I am wrong, but I suspect that we not have seen the last victim of
this mysterious things.
From: sd007b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Sunil Dixit)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: Air Hurache?
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:34:40 GMT
Distribution: na,world
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <1992Nov23.160122.6484@risky.ecs.umass.edu> giovin@medr3.ecs.umass.edu (Rocky J Giovinazzo) writes:

>Since Nike comments are abundant now, I thought I'd ask if anyone
>has Air Hurache?  They look neat, but not too promising as a 
>running shoe.  Is there really any support with that little 
>strap on the back?  

>Rocky Giovinazzo
>giovinaz@hks.hks.com

>P.S. No... I'm not looking for a new shoe, just curious.

From what I've heard and experienced, your first impressions were dead on. 
The Hurache looks pretty cool, but is best worn on an exercise stepper or
for a trip to the Sip 'n' Go for a twinkie.  I forgot my training shoes when
I went to practice once (Saucony), and had to use my friend's pair of
Hurache.  We went six miles on road that day, and after two I was in serious
pain.  The plastic strap on the back itches horribly, and digs into your
achilles as it tries to flex.  There seems to be little or no adequate
cushioning, and after a few miles my feet felt really abused.  Furthermore,
they don't have reflectors (for night buffs), they suck up standing water
like sump pumps, and have less traction than dogs on linoleum.  But hey,
they *look* really neat!



Sunil 'o the U of Rochester