From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Non-flaming dialogue wanted
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:14:01 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1993Jan21.033826.14456@vela.acs.oakland.edu>,
atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez) wrote:
> 
> 
>   I picked up a lot of information from the people who posted responses to my
> questions.  I appreciate the fact that everyone was willing to take me at my
> word.  As far as I can see, I am questioning three assumptions of Mensa, which
> I have listed from most to least fundamental.
> 
> 1)  Very intelligent people need an organization so that they can exercise
>     their high intelligence.
> 
>   Mike Steiner made this assumption of his clear in his posting.

In that case, I didn't express myself very well.

> } Mensa is primarily a social organization.  Delma Murray, a member of Mensa 
> } Canada...probably said it best:  "Mensa is a support group for the severely 
> } gifted."  
> 
>   This implies that the severely gifted *need* a support group.  This 
> assumption is so basic that I doubt anyone has really questioned it.  I'm not
> at all convinced that the gifted are really all that different.

*Some* "severely" gifted need a support group, just as *some* overweight
people need one or some other people who are different (not "better," just
"different") from the norm need one

>   I feel great joy when I interact intelligently with other people.  It's fun
> to be able to actually give voice to the thoughts that I am creating and to
> be able to watch the sparks fly when I run into someone who thinks in the same
> way I do.  I like it, and I have no problem with an organization dedicated to
> the pursuit of intelligent interaction--whatever that might be.  I agree that
> there is a real need for an organization that lets people be intelligent.
> 
> 2)  It is important to make sure that only intelligent people are in this
>     organization.

Yes; just as it is important to make sure that only tall people are in
tall-clubs, or only left-handed people are in left-handed clubs.  It is
what defines the organization.

>   This is where I run into a problem.  I don't think that there is any reason
> to make such an active attempt to categorize people into "intelligent" and 
> "non-intelligent."  Mike again:
> 
> } If we let anyone join and let peer-pressure and boredom push out those who
> } aren't "our type," *we* would be the ones pushed out--by sheer numbers. 
> 
>   I don't see this to be the case at all.  I am part of a student group that
> holds discussions on various topics, goes to musea, "art" films, and other
> activities.  When we go to see and discuss, for example, "Night on Earth," we 
> aren't overwhelmed by a crowd of idiots who want to discuss the film at their
> level.  
>   In reality, people who don't have the ability to appreciate such things 
> simply won't be interested in them.  Crowds of "them" won't show up to ruin 
> your fun because they'll think its extremely boring.  You can get a group of
> intelligent people together to discuss, say, euthanasia without having to
> worry about the people who would rather watch wrestling because those people
> will be watching wrestling.  I see the membership requirements as a way to 
> deal with a non-problem.
>   Even worse, this approach assumes that people are either intelligent or not 
> intelligent, with no middle ground.  I get into great discussions with people 
> who do not qualify for Mensa, but who would certainly appreciate the dialogue 
> and interaction that goes on there.  I don't understand why it is so important 
> to differentiate between "us" and "them."

I think that you misunderstood me.  All your examples cite people who get
together for a specific purpose; that is not an apt analogy for Mensa.  No
one here has said that there is no middle ground.  However, unless a group
is open, literally, to everyone, then there has to be a criterion (or a set
of criteria) to determine who is eligible for membership and who is not.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                         Boycott Colorado                            |
|     These are my opinions, and not necessarily any one else's.      |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+