Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: possible repost of responses to Suzanne's answers
From: mcbeanb@brandonu.ca
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:55:34 CST
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Sorry, I'm impatient, so if I end up posting this twice, I can only say
that I'm sorry. 

Date: 15 Aug 92 19:46:28 CST
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

I'm not Suzanne, and I'm not pro-life, but I'm a parent, and I'm cutoff
from internet for a few days so I guess this article will be long enough
to gimme a fix :)

In article <1992Aug12.232518.26589@noao.edu>, forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
> From article by gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga):
>>
>> Assume your daughter is under-age (say, 16).
>> Your daughter gets pregnant and has an abortion.  You find out about it.
>> What do you do?  
> 
> Cry alot.  That was my grandchild that was killed.

just another question for Suzanne:  Who killed your grandchild?
 
>> How do you treat her?
> 
> Like I've always treated her.   Very lovingly.
> 
>  
>> Do you beat her?  
>> Do you scorn her?  
> 
> Don't be ridiculous.
> 
> Neither of these would turn her heart from selfishness back to love and life.

How was she being selfish?  Do you think she'd have lots of love and
life if she had to struggle through High School (if she could bear to
stay) while parenting her first child?  Even beyond high school, do you
think she'd have the finances to pursue her goals in life?  Do you
think she'll find a husband?  Would you want her to?  About the
finances:  if you would hypothetically intend to give a great deal
of monetary support, then switch the question to some other family
that can't afford another mouth to feed/baby to clothe.

>> Do you try to guilt her during this
>> trying time?  
> 
> Some guilt is appropriate, and I tell you now that she is growing up
> with picture books of unborn babies around the house.  ("A Child is Born".)
> She will never get an abortion in ignorance.

So she'll be educated, but what does that have to do with guilt?
 
>> Do you believe she would get an abortion lightly?
> 
> If she'd had sex lightly, you bet.   

What makes you think that?  I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

> But she won't do either.

How can you be so sure?  Would you feel comfortable speaking for your 
daughter if she were 16?

> She will be going to an NFP class at the first sign of her first cycle,
> and she will know exactly how her body works, how boys' bodies work,
> and where babies come from.

Excuse my ignorance (I don't read all articles on ta), but what is NFP, and
why do you have to wait til her first cycle?  Why not educate her before
and spare her the fear and ignorance, even if it only lasts a day or so?
Also, just wondering if this education includes info about contraception
because if she were provided with that in the first place, then maybe she
wouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place, and none of your
grandchildren will have been killed.
 
>> Based on your answers to previous posts, I'll assume you'll attempt to go
>> after the abortionist in some way.  You've said as much before.
>> Let's say your daughter won't tell you where she got the abortion and
>> you're unable to find out.
> 
> Let's say that I am raising my daughter so that it will never come to that.

How can you be so sure that your daughter will hold exactly the same values
as you, even when she's 16 and is growing up in an entirely different time?

> She will never get pregnant without having planned it.

I hope you understand that only virgins are capable of this.  How can
you be so sure she will remain a virgin until she is 16?  Sure, it's hardly
uncommon to find a 16 year old virgin, but how can you be so cock-sure
of yourself?  Are you actually present in your daughters body, directing
her every action?
 
> It's called "education".

Education can be preventative, but it doesn't outright stop 
unplanned parenthood.

>> I'll assume you'll try to get her some counseling to deal with her 'guilt'
>> which she *must* be feeling (you've implied this in other posts).
>> Let's say she won't go.  
> 
> She'll go.   We've already established that I am the adult in this situation.
> She will go.

What if she just *doesn't* want to go?  She's 16.  If you push her enough,
she's capable of running away.  Maybe she wouldn't feel enough guilt to
warrant a trip to a counsellor.  Maybe she would think her mother simply
didn't understand how she felt and was projecting bogus feelings of guilt
into her mind.  It's common for teens to be misunderstood by their
parents, and they know when they're misunderstood.  Don't you remember
that when you were younger?  Even now that you're older, I'm sure
your mother must have problems seeing eye to eye with you on some occasions.
   
>> Do you believe she acted irresponsibly and
>> now must pay the price?  
> 
> I'd believe she acted irresponsibly and now she needs my help.

She made a decision to take control over her body.  Is that really so
irresponsible?  If she had decided to choose to have the baby, then
later in life she may have been cheated out of her career as a doctor/
lawyer/accountant/dancer/custodian/whatever her heart desires.  Will
that make her love her child any more?
 
>> Would you kick her out of the house (or
>> threaten to) 
> 
> Don't be stupid.  Just to drive her to another pregnancy and another
> abortion in her unending search for love, aggravated by such an act?

But you will be somewhat disappointed, and (like it or not) this atmosphere
may actually drive her to run away anyway.  I'm sure you'd be supportive
as possible, but you may unconsciously let little things slip that
may be terribly disturbing to your daughter.  eg "you acted irresponsibly"
"I brought you up so this would never happen"  "I want you to get
counselling for the guilt you must feel"...
 
> WHY DO YOU THINK TEENAGE GIRLS --GET-- PREGNANT, GORDON??!!

Well, I'm not Gordon either, but I think they get pregnant because they
have sex with fertile males.  
 
> It's not even half as much their sex drives as it is their desperate, mistaken,
> attempts to find love in a crazy, misguided world!!

So every case of teenage sex is a result of a desperate mistaken teenage girl?
 
> And you know what??  If they'd let their pregnancies go to term, they'd
> have it.

Love?  From a kid who they never really wanted?  A kid who lives near
the poverty line because he was a mistake?  A kid who likely won't get
the benefit of a complete education because he doesn't have the cash?
   
>> Do you tell her she just comitted murder?  
> 
> Yes.

Let me add to my list of subtle little hints that will drive your daughter
to run away, the phrase "You are a murderer."
If your child killed a person, wouldn't you convict her of murder, 
especially if it was your grandchild, *her child* which she killed?
Doesn't she deserve to suffer a long jail term like all the rest of
the murderers?

>> Do you tell her she just
>> murdered her child?  
> 
> Yes.

See above...  Also, saying "you've murdered your own child" in this situation
is completely tactless.

>> That she had it cut up into little pieces because she
>> was unwilling to accept her responsibility?  
> 
> Yes, but she will have known that before having it done.
> NOT AFTER.

But maybe she feels that she has accepted the responsibility of taking
control of her own body, and of her own life.
 
>> Do you tell her that when she
>> gets to heaven she'll have to face that child and tell it why she had it
>> killed?  
> 
> I'd tell her that she will have had to have repented of that act BEFORE dying,
> or she won't GET to heaven to MEET that child whom she now so terribly misses.
> The child will know, and will be waiting with open arms to forgive her, if
> she wishes to go there to meet him/her.

Sounds terribly happy, but I'm not one who prescribes to such a physical-
type heaven.
Another phrase for my list "You must repent your terrible act of murder
before you die or you will be damned to Hell."
 
>> Do you try to see her side of it?  Do you ask her to explain?
> 
> Yet BET I do!

Well that's good!
  
>> These are all valid questions.  Teen-agers are rebellious.  At some
>> point they tend to just sit down and not budge (metaphorically).  Your
>> daughter might not do this (and I'm sure many will claim they'll never
>> have to answer these questions because they'll raise their daughter
>> "right"), but then again she might.  
> 
> No, she mightn't.  

How can you possibly speak for your child like this??  She is an *individual*
just like you or me!  She is not an extension of your mind, she has her
very own mind and will be capable of making her very own rational decisions!
It really burns me to hear you dictate the future activities of your
4 year old daughter.  You belittle the ability of teenaged girls all over
the world.  They are *individuals*, they are not their mothers in a younger
form.

> My daughter will be well educated in how her body works,
> and exactly where babies come from.   She already knows they grow inside
> mommies, since so many of our relatives and friends are having babies, and
> she's helped pack boxes for her new little cousins.   She's seen models and
> pictures of unborn babies, and with no prompting from me, she has squeeled
> in delight and kissed them!   I have no intention of changing her mind on
> that!

But you must concede that you are not the only influence on her.  A teacher
might sway her, a peer, a tv show, a movie, a magazine, or even *gasp*,
*she* will change her own mind all by herself.
 
>> If you can manage it, stay in the
>> hypothetical, but try to personalize it in a 'real world' sense.
> 
> 
> The real world is what you make it, Gordon.
> The real world is that parents CAN and DO have a HUGE influence on
> their children's view of the world.

Correct, but parents alone do not make a girl into an adult.
 
>> All others are welcome to answer too.

Maybe I'll try this myself!  Neato!

Brian McBean  -  McBeanB@BrandonU.Ca
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