From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Jewish sources for Kahane's views?
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 04:35:10 GMT

In <1992Nov8.014017.19701@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

[Skoll:]
># The Canaanites were to be expelled because they committed "abominations"
># in the land, something which cannot be applied to the Arabs.  Similarly,
># Amalek was to be utterly destroyed because of his murderous and treacherous
># actions against Jews.  So, to apply those laws to modern times is simply
># going AGAINST Jewish teaching.

>	I will not go into this line of reasoning now (but I may in the
>future) since it is not the point being addressed.

It is the point.  YOU yourself said that Kahane's ideas were based
on the Bible; when pressed for references, you cited the laws concerning
the Canaanites.  I responded by showing that you cannot use those
laws to support Kahane's position.

># Whether or not those laws are or were
># racist is besides the point - the fact is, that according to Jewish
># tradition, they do not apply to the Arab inhabitants of Eretz
># Israel.

>	Oh, but it is EXACTLY the point.  You are claiming that Rabbi Meir
>Kahane (HY"D) was a racist.  There are Jewish sources for his beliefs.

As I've demonstrated, it is a mis-interpretation of Jewish sources.
Many Orthodox scholars (of which, I admit, I'm not one) oppose
Kahane's interpretation of those sources.

>He may or may not be justified in using those sources to support his
>claims, but it does go to the issue as to whether or not he was a
>racist.

Not at all.  Since it is entirely incorrect to base Kahane's ideas
on the Jewish sources you cited, we can state that Kahane is racist
based on his actions and teachings, without in the slightest impugning
the validity of the Jewish sources.  Kahane is racist because of his
teachings and actions, not because he misinterprets Jewish sources.

>	It may be contrary to Judaism (and it may not - again I am not
>going to discuss that aspect since it is besides the point),

But YOU brought up the point by stating that Kahane had "Jewish
sources" for his views.  If you don't want to discuss a point, then
don't bring it up.

> but that
>does not make the Rabbi racist.  If you are correct, it would only
>make him wrong.

I agree here - the fact that Kahane promoted racism, and the fact that
he (you?) misinterpreted Jewish sources are two unrelated facts.

[I said that I thought Kahane's followers endanger Israel:]

>	Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion.  However, I think
>the biggest threat are Israeli (and other) politicians who hurl lies
>about the late Rabbi which are then picked up on by people like you.

Which lies are these?  Perhaps you'd care to supply some "context"?

>Even if the Rabbi is wrong, he was the only one to address certain
>issues.

Which issues are these?

>The smear campaign against the Rabbi and his views only puts
>off addressing those issues, and the longer they take to be addressed,
>the harder it will be to solve them.  I suggest you inquire as to why
>the publisher of the extreme left wing Village Voice made many
>complimentary statements about the late Rabbi.

I don't really care WHO says something.  If I disagree with a statement,
it can come from the right, the left, or the moon for all I care.

[Makowsky asks if I disagree with facilitating Jewish emigration to
 Israel:]

># Absolutely not.  As long as it does not me "facilitating" the expulsion
># of people already living there.  What was done, was done, and I'm not
># ashamed to support Israel.  But conditions for Jews now are quite
># different, and we cannot claim our land by kicking out long-time
># inhabitants.

>	THis is nonsense.  No one has to be expelled as a result of any
>kind of facilitating or claiming of land.  In fact, facilitating
>actually destroys one of the Rabbi's arguments for expulsion
>(demographics)!

Come on, the land of Israel is not physically capable of supporting
all the Jews in the world.  And Kahane's ideas would make non-Jews
virtual non-citizens in his Israel, imposing such severe restrictions
upon them that leaving would be the only way to lead a decent life.
--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________