From: mike@isgtec.com (Mike Sellers)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: A Question (was Re: LDS response to John Meulhausen)
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:36:18 GMT
Organization: ISG Technologies Inc., Mississauga Ontario

In article <sgyj_2j.noring@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:
> In article mark@yvax.byu.edu writes:
> >As was stated above, Mormons believe that faith in Jesus Christ as our
> >Redeemer and living a Christian life of love and service are necessary for
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >salvation.  How is this out of tune with what Jesus taught?  How does this
> >make them non-Christian?  
> 
> My belief, and those of most orthodox Christians, is that faith in Christ 
> is not only necessary, but it is also sufficient 

Perhaps we should then define "faith" (please see the book of James).
You say here that faith is necessary, with which LDS theology agrees, 
and also sufficient.  Depending on what you mean by faith, LDS theology
may or may not agree.  If you mean that a confession of faith, backed 
up by no further thought, action, or worship is sufficient to save, then
we do not agree, and your view does not agree with the Bible (James --
"faith without works is dead", Acts, Galatians, etc.).  If on the other 
hand your definition of faith includes the way of life that emanates from 
this reliance on God, then we are very much in agreement.  Certainly LDS 
theology does not teach that works *in any form* are sufficient for 
salvation.  We do teach that the FIRST principle of salvation is belief 
in Jesus Christ.  However, we also believe that this is only the first 
step, and that as Jesus said, we must obey his commandments in our lives.  
From what you say below, I don't think we're in disagreement on this
point.  

> One cannot be saved via good works, 

Agreed.

> nor can it be a required "add-on" 

Then why did Jesus say, "if you love me you will follow my commandments"?
Why did Paul _repeatedly_ say "believe and be baptized" and you will be
saved?  Why did James write an entire epistle about the good-works that
are a *necessary* expression of a true faith?  

Perhaps you would say that good works that are done with the right intent
are not an "add-on" to faith, but an integral part of faith.  I would
agree with this (this is what LDS doctrine teaches).  If you say, however,
that faith and works are exclusive of each other, that faith can exist
*without* works, then I would strongly urge you to read James again.
Such a view is not consistent with the Bible.

> I would conclude that any teaching that requires that good works is 
> necessary for salvation (even if in addition to faith in Christ), is 
> essentially calling God a liar.  

Would you put the author of the book of James in this category?

> Since a person cannot find salvation any other way than by personally
> accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, what is the role of good
> works and service?  This is the importance of the Holy Spirit as Orthodox
> Christianity defines the Holy Spirit.  Those who accept Christ as their
> Saviour are given the Gift of the Holy Spirit, 

A side note (generally I agree with what you say here):  Doesn't the NT
teach that the Holy Spirit was given as a gift after baptism, and by
the laying on of hands?  Aren't there at least a couple of instances 
where this is covered directly?  Are those who don't do this following
Christ?

> ...Many Christians (those that have accepted Jesus
> Christ as their Lord and Saviour), with the love of God in their hearts,
> will sincerely and *voluntarily* follow Christ's example and live a life
> worthy of His Name, and do so out of love, and not out of obligation.  

This too is what LDS theology teaches.  We must recognize that sometimes
we are not willing servants, but that the only true service is rendered
out of love.  Otherwise, as Jesus said, we have our reward already.

> ...Of course,
> some Christians do not follow very closely the leadings of the Spirit that
> is within them ... but as long as they continue to put their faith of 
> salvation in Christ, they are still saved, albeit as a man escaping 
> through the flames.

I know the verses you are referring to (1Cor 3:10-15), and I agree with
you.  I have wondered though, given what James says about a living faith,
can someone who does not follow the Holy Spirit in their lives truly be
said to have built upon the foundation of Christ?  It is for God to judge,
of course, but I think it is interesting that it is not so clear-cut who
has not built upon Christ's foundation, and who has, but has only built
out of wood and stubble (things that will not survive the judgement).

> [In the above statment of my belief, I am not implying that *all* LDS
> believers do not have love of God as their highest motive for pursuing a life
> pleasing to God (i.e., good works and service).  To the contrary, I have no
> doubt that there are many, many LDS believers who do have love of God as 
> their primary motive.]

Just as I have no doubt that there are many Protestants who have love of
God as their primary motive.  I think the operative factor here is people's
own ambivalence, not their theology.

> One question for those practicing LDS: 
> ...I believe in and have put my faith for salvation in Jesus Christ...
, and Him alone.  ...
> As long as I do not switch over and accept and practice LDS teaching and
> theology, will I, or will I not, after I pass away from this life, go to
> Heaven and be eternally in the direct presence of God and of Jesus Christ?

Ultimately this is for God to judge.  All I can say is that God is just 
and knows the intents of our hearts, and that each of us will end up where
we truly desire to be -- for some being with God will be unbearable.  
In a hypothetical case, however, it is my understanding that those who 
serve Christ will desire to be in the Celestial kingdom, and will be 
washed clean of sin by Christ's sacrifice.  Although their joy will be 
great, such people will not, however, have the ability to remain married 
for eternity; this is accomplished by the power given to Peter (to bind 
on earth and in heaven) and is currenly only done in the temple.  It's
not possible for us mortals to say how much of a difference in joy this
will present, if any.  However, having grown up Protestant it is my
opinion that what most Protestants think of heaven is what LDSs think
of as the Terrestrial (second) kingdom.  People there will, I believe,
be very happy, even if they don't realize how much happier they could
have been.

> Of course, out of fairness to my LDS friends, I'll share the reverse of 
> this in a future post if queried.

I'd appreciate if you'd do that.  In my case, I consider myself a Christian,
and have accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior.  I have also been LDS for
almost 12 years, and have been true and faithful to those ideas that I
consider to be from God.  What happens to me when I die (other folks 
feel free to chime in with your ideas)?

> Jon Noring

--
                    Mike Sellers       mike@isgtec.com
                        User Interface Team Leader
                    ISG Technologies, Toronto, Canada
            "Actum ne agas" -- Do not do what has been done.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc