From: bret@technix.mn.org (Bret Indrelee)
Subject: Re: Paladins
Organization: Private System - Saint Paul, MN
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 17:06:22 GMT

In article <66603@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz) writes:
>In article <5071@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>>	But to the discussion at hand: why would killing the theif be,
>>necessarily, not-good? What if the beliefs of your deity are: 
>
>Killing a thief without even giving him the right to defend himself
>is not good.  Why not wait until his back is turned and then stab
>him?  Or slit his throat in his sleep?  Because that's not how a Paladin
>is supposed to act.  1)  It's not very honorable.  2)  It's not 'good'
>(IMHO) to kill someone that can't fight back.  That's murder.
>
>>	1) Amoung others, the right to property is an inalienable right and
>>must not be infringed
>>	2) Those who choose to violate inalienable rights are, BY THEIR
>>OWN VOLUNTARY CHOICE, giving up ALL of their own rights, because they
>>show no respect for others and thus deserve no respect from those others
>>	3) Society must be protected against all those who do not show
>>the basic respect for these rights.
>
>Agreed.  And there are other ways to do this.  A forced career change
>might be in order.  Hell, if you want to kill the guy, fine.  Give him
>a sword and slug it out.  But you can't just kill him while he's
>defenseless.  That's a coward's way out.  [Ooh, them's fightin' words!]

Jorge, could you please enlighten me as to how a fight between a Paladin
and a thief is a fair fight?

Lets assume the Paladin is 5th level, XP = 18,000 - 35,999.  The thief
would be 6th level, XP = 20,000 - 39,999.

Assuming they were in the same group, the Paladin would have likely
gotten first choice of magical weapons.  At best, they have weapons
of equal bonus.

Thief doesn't like his abilities, so he wears studded leather armor.  I
have never run a thief that did this, but we will assume it for now.

The Paladin would usually have the option of plate mail and shield by
now, but we will assume banded mail.

Thief THAC0 = 18, banded + shield = AC3.  We will assume Paladin doesn't
have a DEX.

Thief chance to hit = 15 = 30%

Paladin THAC0 = 16, no strength bonus, studded + DEX (18) = AC3

Paladin chance to his = 13 = 40%

Thief hit points = 6 + 3.5 * 5 = 24 + 6 (Con 15) = 30

Paladin hit points = 10 + 5.5 * 4 = 32


I have given the thief better stats (DEX=18, Con = 15 vs Avg Str, Avg Con, 
Avg Dex) and adjusted the Thiefs armour up one and Paladins down one.

Even with all this, the Paladin as +2 to hit over the thief and 2 more
hit points to take damage.  Given a Paladin and a Thief of roughly
equal experience, the thief WILL LOOSE!  In order for the thief to
have a chance of winning, it CAN'T be a straight fight.  That isn't
what the thief spent his life doing.  If it was, he would be a ranger
or a fighter.

To repeat your own words back at you:
>Killing a thief without even giving him the right to defend himself
>is not good.

What you are really doing when you give the thief a weapon and ask him
to fight the paladin in mortal combat is giving the thief one last shot
at escape.  Since the rest of the party is probably formed a circle
around the combatants, it really isn't that great a chance of escape.

The other interpretation is torture.  The thief is dead, you are just
prolonging the execution of your death sentence.

The thief would have a better chance of surviving if you gave him 
10 minutes head start, and then had the ranger track him.  Somehow, 
I think you would consider that evil (hunting a human) but it would 
at least be closer to fair combat.

The thief would have a chance to use his abilities to evade capture, and
maybe a few tricks to throw the way of the pursuing party.


It is only a fair fight if both people in the fight have a roughly
equal chance of 'winning'.

-Bret

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bret Indrelee               |   Pretend there is something profound
email: bret@technix.mn.org  |   written here.