Path: sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!alberta!lewchuk
   From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
   Keywords: Tom Bombadil
   Sender: news@cs.UAlberta.CA (News Administrator)
   Nntp-Posting-Host: menaik.cs.ualberta.ca
   Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
   Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:46:03 GMT
   Lines: 71


   First of all, I'd like to ask why Galadriel was banned from Valinor and why
   her refusal of the Ring was her redemption.

   Next, about Bombadil:  a few comments:

   1.  Bombadil's power seemed to be far greater than that of any mortal or
       Istari.  It was debated whether Bombadil could resist even Sauron,
       his combined army, and the One Ring.  Gandalf was sure that he, even
       as the White could not have faced Sauron wielding the One, but Bombadil
       might have been able to (although Gandalf and Elrond doubted it).

It was debated, that is true. Or rather suggested by someone, an
Elf I think at the Council. But I thought that the idea was immediately
shelved (the idea being to take the Ring to Bombadil), for various reasons:

1. They could not send it back along the East Road. That would be too
   dangerous, now that the Nazg^ul knew where it was. Even though they
   had been unhorsed by that time in the Flood, I don't think that
   Mithrandir (or anyone else) knew for sure what their powers were.
   Also, Mithrandir knew at this time of the treason of Saruman, and
   was rightly suspicious of Saruman's spies along the road.

2. Bombadil was judged (without asking him =8-0 ) to NOT have the
   power to resist the coming of Sauron at the last. In other words,
   he may have had the ability to deal with Nazg^ul, and probably
   any other threat in Middle-Earth, but when all else had fallen,
   Gorthaur, knowing the location of the Ring, would come in person
   to take it, and I seem to remember that it was decided that he
   did NOT have that power. Eventually, Sauron would lay waste
   to the Old Forest, and everything in it. 

3. Not least, since the Ring did not seem to affect Bombadil, he may
   have mislaid it, or thre it away, or forgotten about it. Also
   possible is the fact that Ring, while not exactly sentient, would
   realize (as it did with Gollum) that Bombadil was not the master
   of it, and find it's way elsewhere, and would surely fall into the
   hands of 1) Saruman, which would be bad or 2) Sauron, which would
   be catastrophic, and the beginning of the Second Darkness. Indeed,
   it as just as well that Saruman did not obtain the Ring 
   (I know, I know, a different subject) because he would not be able
   to overthrow Sauron even if he wielded it, thus he
   would be dealt with by Sauron, corrupted further by him, and
   would make a truly terrible servant to Sauron, perhaps even
   more powerful than the Nazg^ul.

   2.  Bombadil's power was internal: he was not using a Ring of Power to
       do or amplify the stuff he did.  Unlike Gandalf and Elrond, who used
       the Rings to amplify their personal wisdom and power, Tom didn't have
       a Ring to fall back on, but did really powerful stuff anyways (such as
       signing Old Man Willow to sleep and banishing the undead).

Bombadil was master of the Old Forest. Nothing more. He had very carefully
chosen the bounds of his influence. What his influence would be outside
of the Forest is, to me, a matter of conjecture.

   3.  Bombadil had NO FEAR.  Gandalf, Elrond, even Sauron were very afraid.
       Goldberry herself showed no fear.

Bombadil had nothing to be afraid of, inside the Forest. 

   Personally I'd think that Bombadil was an Arda-Maia, if such a thing
   existed -- an elemental spirit (earth in his case, water for Goldberry)
   with allegiance not to the Valar but to Arda and the Vision of Illuvitar
   (and thus to Illuvitar).  In some sense, I'd say he was either an Exile
   (similar connotation to the term when applied to the Elves) or a Maiar
   who went not just into Ea per se, but directly into Arda, for the sake of
   Arda, not of Ea.  Perhaps Illuvitar got the notion that Arda needed a little
   monitoring here and there to mature, and thus placed a "gardener" or
   "caretaker" there along with the various Valar and Maiar?  Or maybe the
   Valar forgot to use birth control a few times...

   The arguments for him being a Valar are few but cannot be ignored:
   1.  His power was entirely internal and at least the equal of even the
       greatest Maiar (Olorin (Gandalf) and Sauron).

Are you in fact convinced that the Olorin (Maia) and Gandalf were
one and the same? I'm not. True, it would be convincing in some ways,
but what about the other Istari? Why would Saruman be chosen as head
of the White Council, and not mentioned otherwise? I admit that I
go back and forth on the issue of whether Gandalf-Mithrandir was
the Olorin, but today, I don't think so.

   2.  He had no fear and basically "ruled" an entire realm based on, well,
       wisdom, fearlessness, and love.  Unlike Gandalf, Bombadil hemmed himself
       into "his corner of the world" but could presumably challenge anything
       there -- even Sauron.  His power was as great as Galadriel's, but she
       was using the Elven Ring to maintain that power, while Bombadil was only
       using his personal power.  His curing of the hobbits' death trance in
       the Barrows and the casting out of the undead showed that he had real
       power even in places and situations deemed to be evil.   Not even Elrond
       seemed to have that amount of sheer personal power and Gandalf didn't
       seem to have enough either to simply tell Sauron's minions to get lost.

Don't think so... see above #2

   3.  Unlike the Maiar, who used "flashy magic" -- the Balrog's fire and
       spells, and Gandalf's spells, Bombadil only used will-force.  What
       Bombadil sang basically happened.  He just commanded the barrow-wight
       to leave and it left, no questions asked.  He probably could've done the
       same to the Balrog.  I don't know whether he simply banished the undead
       to Mordor or to the Void, but he had one heckuva knowledge of Ea --
       his reference to "where gates stand forever shut 'til the world is mended"
       could mean either to Mordor (where the opening of the Gates indicates
       that the War of the Ring comes to its conclusion) or the Void, where
       creatures are banished until the world is reformed (the End?).

   This presents an interesting hypothesis:
   Could Bombadil, who sings reality, be Illuvitar "gone native"?  That is,
   Illuvitar himself either went to Arda or created a persona by which he could
   in part exist as an Arda native and touch things up a bit?  Bombadil seems
   to have the same traits -- "singing" to produce "reality", and leaving all
   the work of the Great Wars to the Maiar and Valar while he sits back and
   continues with the Vision, only interfering as required.  Thus, instead of
   being a Maia of a Valar, or a Valar of a certain power, he seemed to be a
   Spirit of Illuvitar directly.  Either Maiar or Valar is possible.  Personally
   I think even a Maia of Illuvitar would have great power: having your "boss"
   be the creator of the Secret Fire rather than just its servant probably means
   you get taught real neat tricks on how to solve problems.

Well done, Micheal. I agree in part with this last. Illuvatar could have sent
a persona to Middle-earth to `get the lay of the land', but I think it 
not very likely. What I DO think is that Manw:e could have done it. Remember 
that the Valar were very reluctant to interfere with Middle-earth, and only
did so when ruin was imminent (Melkor, for example).

Again I say, well done! I enjoyed this post immensely, though I disagree
with most of it.....

--
terry@HomeDepot.COM                      (404) 433-8211x5124 or (404) 941-8304

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