From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby book
Date: 8 Sep 1992 13:33:28 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

I'm replying to Laura's points out of order:

>> The different religions are based on contradictory understandings of
>> what they believe G-d said.
>
> Then what is Tanach ???

The written Torah, which the different religions understand in
contradictory ways, each believing its way to be correct.


>> Neither could be called "a religion."  Judaism, which you call
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> "Rabbinic Judaism" is the correct form of the Jewish religion,
>                        VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV        
>> unlike Karaism, Frankism, etc.  "Messianic Judaism" is a
>> form of the Christian religion, based upon shared faith tenets,
>> which Harvey Smith was kind enough to post for us.  It doesn't
>> make sense for me to decide if it's "correct" or not, since
>> I don't accept Christianity's faith tenets in the first place.

> Once again, what have "tenets" to do with this ?

*Everything*

  They are the criteria by which we classify, compare,
and contrast systems of belief.  The purpose of intellectual
discussion should be to break the disagreement down to first
principles, as is done in the complicated Talmudic law
discussions.  To learn how "A" differs from "B" you have to
isolate the elements of "A" and "B" and see how they compare.


> Could you give the faith tenets of RJism and what are they based on.

There is no carved-in-stone catechism of Jewish faith tenets, although
various compendia have achieved near-universal acceptance.  Rabbi
Aryeh Kaplan's _Handbook of Jewish Thought_ discusses the beliefs of
Judaism in quite a bit of detail.  More than half the book is
footnotes citing a wide range of sources for the principles he
enumerates.

A modern essayist suggests that the pillars of Judaism are 
  a. Belief in G-d
  b. Observance of Torah law
  c. Jewish nationhood (identity as a people)

One popular collection is the 13 principles of faith by Maimonides, of
necessity, highly simplified.  (Translation based on the Artscroll
prayerbook)

  1  G-d exists
  2  G-d is a complete and total unity
  3  G-d is not physical
  4  G-d is eternal and transcends time
  5  Prayers should be directed to G-d
  6  G-d communicates with man
  7  Moses' level of prophecy was unique, of greater quality
      than those who preceded and followed him
  8  The entire Torah, written and oral, is given by G-d to man
  9  The Torah is unchangeable
 10  G-d knows man's thoughts and deeds
 11  Reward and punishment; each deed is treated separately
 12  The messiah of the house of David will come, and will be fully human
 13  The dead will live again

Now here's the Nicene creed:

 I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God.
      Born of the Father before all ages.
      God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God.
      Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father.
      By whom all things were made.
      Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven.
      And he bacame flesh by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary:
       and was made man."

Now here's some of the principles of "Messianic Judaism [sic]"

# Message-ID: <139891.2A95C447@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>
# Date: 21 Aug 92 17:01:06 GMT
#
# As Messianic Jewish believers we believe:
[...]
#   
#2. We believe Yeshua Hamashiach, the Jewish way to say Jesus Christ, is the
#   Promised Messiah, was born of the Virgin Miriam(Mary), lived in Israel
#   ministered to the Jewish People, chose 12 Jewish Apostles, fulfilled
#   the prophecies of the Tanach,(Old Testament), taught the precepts of
#   God, died for our sins on the cursed tree (cross), shed his blood for
#   everlasting atonement, and rose from the dead the third day, to be both 
#   Lord and Messiah.  We believe in Him was the fulness of God in a body.
#   (His diety). We express this Unity as a Tri-Unity. One God expressed
#   in three personages. We believe He is coming again soon to rule over
#   the nations of the world for 1,000 years after which, there will be
#   a new heaven and a new earth, with its capitol city being Jerusalem,
#   whose foundations will have the names of the twelve Jewish Apostles
#   of Yeshua, and the gates having the names of the 12 tribes of Israel!



I'm no Christian theologian, but I can't see how Harvey's
tenets disagree with the Nicene creed of Christianity.

Both Harvey's tenets and the Nicene creed assert that
Jesus was God, not just the messiah.  Such an assertion
disagrees with the tenets of Judaism, which believes
that the messiah will be fully human and that G-d cannot
be a man.


[...]   
# 4. our eschatology is as fortold in Matt. 24, Revelation etc..
#   Most are Pre-Millenial without dispensationalism.(overlaping
#   dispensations).
#
# 5. We relate to many different denominations and fellowships, some MJ
#   congregations are Baptist, some Pentecostal, some Charismatic, some
#   Lutheran etc..  Being an Evangelical is the covering that we best
#   relate to.

This is the language of Christianity.  None of these terms 
have any connection to Judaism, which is characterized by the
tenets I posted above.  

How would you feel if someone said 

  I'm part of the pro-life movement.  I believe that the mother's life
  takes precedence over the fetus, and that the mother does not have to
  affect her life by carrying a pregnancy to term."

How about

   I'm part of the pro-life movement.  I believe that only a healthy,
   comfortable life is worth living, and that pregnant woman should be
   allowed to abort their fetusus if the fetus is imperfect or would
   be born into unhealthy circumstances.

How about

   I'm part of the pro-life movement.  If we overturn Roe v. Wade
   many women will die through back-alley abortions, and I wan't
   their lives safeguarded through safe, legal, therapeutic abortions.


What would you say about their claim to be "pro-life?"  Would
you want them to sponsor similar legislation and call it
pro-life legislation?  Would you want them listed in the
phone book as "Pro-life organizations?"  Should their
fundraising literature have "We're pro-life" in big letters,
with photographs of tiny foetuses and smiling families?

What would you think of a communications card advising members
to avoid the terms "abortion" and "choice," substituting
"early completed pregnancy" and "life option?"

What if they turned around and said "To be pro-choice is to 
be *truly* pro-life.  We demand the right to be counted
among pro-life groups as much as Operation Rescue."

It would make infinitely more sense and be infinitely more honest
to say "We consider ourselves in favor of life, but since our positions
differ from those who call themselves 'pro-life,' and our views are
100% in line with groups such as NARAL and NOW, we are affiliated with
the pro-choice movement, and publicly call ourselves 'pro-choice.'"

So would it make sense for "Messianic Judaism[sic]" to acknowledge
their organizational and ideological ties to other Christian groups,
and to recognize the divergence of their beliefs from Judaism by
deciding to cease and desist from calling their beliefs and practices
"Judaism."

( Although some liberal Jewish groups deny some of the tenets of
  Judaism, none of these groups accept the tenets of other religions,
  and so their use of the term "Judaism" isn't nearly as problematic
  as that of Christian groups posing as Jewish groups. )
 
R

--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM