HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg,talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Herbivory (was Re: Gun Control Petition)
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:34:31 GMT
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Distribution: can
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:

>[note follow-up]
>In article <schuck.724384514@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>>g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>>>On the contrary, I know of many human beings who are herbivores, 
>>
>>I place these people in the category of breatharians.
>>[stuff deleted]
>>Nobody as far as I know has made it to adulthood by being an herbivore.
>>
>Do you know anyone who has tried?  Boatloads of studies of vegans (human
>herbivores) have been done, check it out at your local medical library.
>Dr Gill Langley's book _Vegan_Nutrition:_A_Survey_of_Research_ has references
>to many of these studies.
>>
>>Besides, since human beings are just animals, there is no moral
>>difference between a human hunting a deer from a mountain lion hunting
>>a deer.
>>
>Would you also say, since human beings are just animals, there is no moral
>difference between a human killing and eating her own child, and a squirrel
>killing and eating her own child?  Since your argument can be used to 
>justify murder, I think it is seriously flawed.

Most animals I know of do not practice cannibalism, except for the
praying mantis.

Cannibalism as a taboo is genetically correct, and any tribe of humans
that practices cannibalism on it's own children is not going to live
very long.

I do know that human women *do* kill their own unborn children at the
rate of about 100,000 per year in Canada, and that is legal , even if
some people claim it isn't moral.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@fraser.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Medicine and The Mall
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:34:42 GMT

avi@seal.imagen.com writes:


>2. Where do you draw the line ? That's EXACTLY my point !
>   Why is killing cows and chickens unjustified but killing micro-organisms and
>   plants, both of which are undoubtely ALIVE, is justified ?

I've posted 2 criteria which rationally justifies that distinction.
Care to respond to that posting?  ;-)



. . . 
>   If one is a vegetarian for health reasons, that's fine and it makes sense,
>   too. If one abstains from Meat consumption because "I love animals and I 
>   don't like them dead" then one is unfortunately either an ignorant or a
>   hypocrite.  

Gee, not much of a choice here. :-(   

I don't know what being ignorant or nescient might mean
in this context, but maybe it might include the inability but to i
imagine no more than a mere two possibilities as to why people w
like Bernard Shaw would say "Animals are my friends, and I don't
eat my friends"

I think you are maybe flame baiting here with such unkind words.
Now, we all know of some very educated, well-informed
sincere, and highly accomplished philosophers who have
developed this concern towards non-humans in a manner that indeed
does rationally justify and logically entail a vegetarian practice.
To take just one example, take a look at professor Tom Regan's classic,
THE CASE FOR ANIMAL RIGHTS, 1983.


					Happy Holiday Season,
						ted


.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: avi@hawk.imagen.com (avi zelmanov)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Medicine & the Mall
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:15:11 GMT
Reply-To: avi@hawk.imagen.com (avi zelmanov)
Organization: imagen

In article <c188-am.724398735@po.berkeley.edu>, c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (Leor Jacobi) writes:
|> avi@seal.imagen.com writes:
|> 
|> >In other words, factually and logically speaking, if you say you're a vegetarian
|> >becuase its healthier, that's fine. If you say your'e a vegetarian because you
|> >"love animals and think killing animals is bad" you're either an ignorant (about
|> >plants life) or a hypocrite !  (I realize that sounds pretty strong, but those ARE
|> >the facts).
|> 
|> AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
|> How many times do I have to make my point before this person will listen to
|> me?  It doesn't seem very complicated.
|> Animals are higher on the food chain.
|> EATING ANIMALS KILLS MORE PLANTS THAN EATING PLANTS.
|> What does she/he think?  They grow steaks in factories?  NO!  They feed them
|> bushels and bushels of PLANTS!
|> This person's argument defeats itself.  The more you think that plants are
|> conscious, the more you should not eat meat!
|> 
|> I still want to know, is avi@seal a vegetarian?
|> 


   Mr. Leor Jacobi,

   You simply do NOT listen !!! 

   (or maybe all this screaming, as in " AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!" - made you deaf...)

   I NEVER said that plants being conscious are a reason to eat meat !
   What I did say and still say, is that USING THE NON-HARMING ARGUMENT 
   AS A MOTIVATION TO BE VEGETARIAN IS INCONSISTENT WITH THE FACTS AND LOGIC !!!

   It is NOT the "what" that I question, but the "WHY" !!   
   Not only do I NOT object to a vegetarian diet, I AM A VEGETARIAN MYSELF !!!!

   BUT - and that's a big "BUT", it depends WHY someone is a vegetarian !
                                            ---
   (and NOT whether he is or not)


   In other words, If one becomes a vegetarian because of health-reasons for
   example, that's fine ! But if one says that he/she would rather not eat meat
   because he/she "loves animals and thinks killing animals is bad" then that 
   would make him/her either an ignorant or a hypocrite ! 

   Plants are just as much ALIVE as are animals, and studies suggest that they 
   are also just as conscious as animals, and both detect and react to pain !!!

   So when you consume your favorite veggie, you kill a life, just like when 
   you consume your steak !!!

   Now, do you get it ???

   I STRONGLY suggest you get a copy of "The Secret Life of the Plants" in your
   local library, and read it through !!!  AFTER you will read it, if you still
   wish to argue, I'll be happy to accomodate.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: vitamins and hot flashes
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:25:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.175747.2138@netcom.com> sj@netcom.com (Suzanne Jacobs) writes:
>I've always taken Schiff veg multiple vitamins, but they've
>recently begun giving me hot flashes.  You're supposed to take
>2 per day, so I've started taking 1 in the morning and 1 at night.
>Sure nuff, I get smaller hot flashes.
>Any ideas?  I'd hate to go w/o vitamins, but I don't think hot
>flashes are healthy either.

Assuming you're under 40 or so, I would check the label for its
content of niacin or nicotinic acid.  This is a form of vitamin B3
which causes superficial skin flushing if taken in high enough doses
(I suppose 20mg or so might be enough to cause this in sensitive
individuals.)  Niacinamide or nicotinamide doesn't have this side effect.
Assuming this is the cause, it's pretty benign, and usually disappears
in a very short time, as you become accustomed to a particular dose.
I don't know why it would just start happening, however.


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: zkym02@orl.amoco.com (Keerthi Y. McIntosh)
Subject: Re: Non-fried falafel (was: Lowfat French fries
Reply-To: zkym02@orl.amoco.com
Organization: Amoco
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:05:41 GMT


First let me apologize for my lengthy oneliners ... I am relatively new to
the net and was not aware of some of my errs... I will try hard to fix them
in the future.  As for my net id... there is a hard code problem with our
software that I was not aware of until recently ... my e-mail id is 
zkym02@orl.amoco.com.  I will try and correct that until the bug is fixed.


I have tried several felaful recipes from scratch... but find that I really
like the Fantastic Foods boxed felaful the best.  It is convenient and 
very tasty.  We usually serve ours in a pita with a yogurt sauce (made 
from yogurt, ground cumin seeds, ground black pepper and dash of hot 
sauce.) and cucumbers and tomatoes.  Very tasty.


Keerthi 

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (Leor Jacobi)
Subject: Re: McDonalds Veggie burger
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:34:17 GMT


"GIVE ME CONVENIENCE OR GIVE ME DEATH!"
			-- Dead Kennedys

Why aren't there more vegetarians?
Its too hard.
Time is money and as long as someone can go into a McDonalds and buy a
burger for $.39 they are going to be very reluctant to give it up.

CATCH-22
No one would buy a veggie burger?
There has never been a veggie burger (in fast food).

Its a given that the burger consumer is completely disassociated from the
act of killing the animal.  Shouldn't the price of meat at least reflect the
environmental cost?  $.39 just doesn't cover it.

If meat was priced fairly, veggie burgers would sell like...like hot-cakes!

McDonalds is certainly to be avoided, but just think of how many people
there are who have very limited eating options (location, $$) and who would
benefit from having vegetarian fare at least *on* the menu.  Not only are
most people not vegetarians, most don't even consider it possible.  How can
there be freedom without choice?

Liberate the animals - Liberate the People!

--
 Leor Jacobi                ,__o  |"Darkness is the shore of light.
 leor@ocf.berkeley.edu    _-\_<,  | The truth is framed with lies...
 c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (*)/'(*) | When you're thin and damp and shoddy,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=| just remember you're in a body." - R.H.
From: tara@starburst.umd.edu (Tara McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: VEGAN: Golden Brown Pie
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:43:02 GMT

From the Poultryless "Poultry" Potpourri cookbook from United Poultry
Concerns (contact Karen Davis at (301) 948-2406):

Mrs. Gobble-Good's Golden Brown Pie: (serves 4 to 6)
------------------------------------
Ingredients: 
Uncooked pie crust for placing on top of pie (additional recipe at end
  of this)
2/3 cup lentils
8 cups water
2 to 3 carrots, sliced
2 celery stalks, sliced
1 medium onion, diced
2 packets George Washington Gold or other vegetarian bouillon
3 to 4 potatoes, peeled and diced
1/2 tsp. sage
1 1/2 tsp salt (I used less - about 3/4; use less if bouillon is
  salted) 
1/2 tsp parsley
3 Tbsp. margerine
3 Tbsp. flour
1 cup water for cooking vegetables

Preheat oven to 350.

Cook lentils and 2 cups water on low heat till tender, adding more
water if necessary.  Put prepared vegetables in a large saucepan with
6 cups water plus bouillion.  Bring to a boil and cook for 10 minutes.
Add prepared potatoes to cooking vegetables.  Cook all vegetables for
20 minutes.

Prepare a thickening by melting margerine in a frying pan, adding
flour, then 1 cup water from cooking vegetables.  Drain vegetables and
put in a casserole pan (about 9 inches).  Add lentils, seasonings, and
thickening.  Stir.  If mixture is too thick, add more water from the
cooking process (because of this, drain over a dish, and not over the
sink!).  When baking, this tends to thicken up, so add more liquid than
you think is necessary.  Place pie crust on top and bake till brown
(about 1 hour).

The extra liquid from the vegetables and bouillion can be thickened
with more flour to make a nice gravy for this, if you find it too dry,
or would make a good stock for soup.

Pie crust topping: 
------------------
Mix up 1 1/4 cup ww flour, 1/2 tsp. salt, 1/2 stick margerine.  When
well mixed, add between 3 Tbsp. and 1/4 cup water.  Mix it up into a
ball and then spread out to fit over the casserole pan.

--
Tara McDermott                                  tara@starburst.umd.edu

Sweet and sweet is their poisoned note, the little snakes' of silver throat,
in mossy skulls that nest and lie, ever singing "die, oh! die."
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: Greg_Dawson@mindlink.bc.ca (Greg Dawson)
Subject: Bonne Belle cosmetics animal tested??
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:53:22 GMT

Can someone please tell me if Bonne Belle cosmetics are tested on animals?

Thanks!

Shari Dawson

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark)
Subject: Re: Lowfat French fries
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 20:06:19 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <27930@dog.ee.lbl.gov> jane@tortoise.ee.lbl.gov (Jane Colman) writes:
>In article <Bz2GIL.HyC@rice.edu> cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston) writes:
>
>You can get a pretty good approximation by cutting up potatoes like
>french fries, brushing them with a very little bit of oil, and baking
>them at a fairly high temperature for a while, turning them over in
>the middle of the cooking time.

I've seen a recipe that's identical, except you dip the french fries in
beaten egg white, instead of oil. I disliked the outcome, so I'm not
recommending it.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: kkv@inel.gov (Jamie J Ferguson)
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Pets
Organization: Idaho National Engineering Laboratory, Idaho Falls, Idaho
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 20:59:29 GMT



I currently feed all of my animals meat-based food, but I don't
think the dogs need to eat meat (I just haven't taken the time to
find a new food -- I just finished grad school, started a new
job, got married, and bought a house).  I found the recent posts
on taurine in vegetarian cat food very interesting since I was 
not aware that this was done, and I just wanted to say thanks
for the information.  


Jamie

the pack:  Kenzie   -- 1 yr old black Lab X
           Meggin   -- 8 month old Australian Shepherd X
           Harrison -- 4 month old Border Collie X

the herd:  Kieri -- 5 1/2 yr old lilac point Siamese
           Zak   -- 5 1/2 yr old blue point Siamese
           Duke  -- 1 yr old seal point Siamese



========== long legal disclaimer follows, press n to skip ===========

Neither the United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering
Laboratory or any of their employees, makes any warranty, whatsoever,
implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility regarding any
information, disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe
privately owned rights.  No specific reference constitutes or implies
endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by the United States
Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory.  The views and
opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of the
United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory,
and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes.
From: tara@starburst.umd.edu (Tara McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Medicine & the Mall
Date: 18 Dec 92 05:30:37 GMT


I can't believe that no one has mentioned that by eating plants and
not animals, the net result is that much less plants are consumed.
When animals are eaten, roughly 16 times the plants are consumed by
the animal, which we then consume.  So even if ethically minded people
wanted to be as ethical as possible, yet still remain alive, they
would eat as low on the food chain as possible.  This means eating
plants. 

This of course only applies to those who agree that plants suffer
horribly by being harvested and eaten.  I wonder if the kosher people
know about this angle.  They had better devise a way of slowly
torturing plants to fit in with their religious beliefs when it comes
to devouring plant food!  This refers to the kosher method of killing
cows - letting them bleed dry, while still alive, and not bothering
with more humane ways of killing them such as using a stun gun.  This
whole thread has got to be a joke.  I can't believe people are taking
this seriously.  

--
Tara McDermott               
tara@starburst.umd.edu       
I eat tofu, and I vote.
From: tara@starburst.umd.edu (Tara McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: A veg*n fantasy
Date: 15 Dec 92 21:49:01 GMT

briang@atlastele.com (Brian Godfrey) writes:

>   Question from a newbie:  what's a vegan?  

A vegan (such as myself) is a person that does not eat any animal
products such as eggs, cheese, or dairy in addition to being a
vegetarian (eating no meat, fish or fowl).  A vegan may or may not eat
honey.  Vegans also do not use any animal products such as wool,
leather, silk, etc...  A person that does not eat any animal products
but uses animal skins, would probably be called a strict, or total
vegetarian as apposed to vegan.  A vegan also strives to use
cruelty-free products, such as cosmetics and toiletries not tested on
animals. 

I'll probably start a HUGE followup for saying this, but vegan is
usually pronounced vee-gun.  Please note the "usually".  

>--Brian M. Godfrey
>  atlastele.com

--
Tara McDermott                                  tara@starburst.umd.edu

Sweet and sweet is their poisoned note, the little snakes' of silver throat,
in mossy skulls that nest and lie, ever singing "die, oh! die."
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young)
Subject: Re: Medicine & the Mall
Originator: young@sasquatch
Reply-To: young@serum.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Diagnostics Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 16:11:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.170208.22219@psych.toronto.edu> michael@psych.toronto.edu (Michael Gemar) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec11.002117.2540@pixel.kodak.com> young@serum.kodak.com writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Dec10.034239.25217@psych.toronto.edu> michael@psych.toronto.edu (Michael Gemar) writes:

[...]

>>>"No" justification?  This is *far* too strong, since it is not unreasonable
>>>to assume that there is some similarity in response between ourselves and
>>>those species closely related to us.
>>
>>	At what point DOES it become unreasonable?  Please post for us the
>>	criteria you use to determine this and the exact procedure you use
>>	to thus classify non-human species into the two groups: ethically
>>	important, and ethically irrelevant.
>
>As Ronald Reagan used to say, "There you go again."  I made no claim that
>worthiness of ethical consideration is a discrete, dichotomous category.

	Yes, you did.  You said that "it is not unreasonable to assume that
	there is some similarity in response between ourselves and those
	species closely related to us."  I merely ask which species you
	include in the category "closely related to us" and how you make
	the determination.  In the span of one's life, one will surely be
	called upon to make such decisions regarding many different life
	forms...please tell us how YOU have reduced this to consultation
	of a simple list, so that we may follow in your footsteps.

>In practice we are willing to accept fuzziness in it for other domains
>of ethical behaviour (e.g., we all agree that killing a fully functioning
>human being is wrong, but there is disagreement about fetuses, severely
>mentally retarded infants, etc.).  [...]

	In the first place, your examples are not non-human, and we are
	talking about similarities between species, not abnormal or immature
	examples of the same species.

	In the second place, your comments make no allowance for fuzziness,
	except, apparently, when you are asked to define and describe your
	decision-making process in detail.  If I give you an example, by
	name, of a non-human species, will you tell us whether that species
	is ethically relevant and describe for us the method you used to
	arrive at that conclusion?

	I thought not.

[...]


-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: What's the Best Juicer
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 01:07:31 GMT


ted Altar wrote:
>> 	 After shopping around I personally arrived at
>> buying the Champion Juicer (the better one the with stainless
>> steel shaft) since it came with an attachment for grain grinding.

Ted Feurerbach replied:
>Oh, *SURE* Ted.  Just what I'd expect from the likes of you.  ;-)

Okay, okay, my ALTER ego has found me out.  Yes, you're right,
I went overboard.  Now I have to make do without a mixer, a
food processor, a bread maker, or a pressure cooker ;-)


>> I used to first grind up the apples and berries in my blender
>> than then place the pulp in some cheesecloth and hand squeeze out
>> the juice.  Laborious but it does work quite well.  

>God, I've done that too.  Big pain in the butt!  I used a cotton
>sock that was dedicated to the task (I.E. unused).  Kids, don't
>try this at home.  Get a juicer.

Good advice kids.  Ted, there is potential here.  I've seen a
revival of tied dyed tee-shirts, but nobody has thought of 
juice-stained socks.  How do they look?


>I use the pulp from the vegies in soups and bean dishes from the
>slow cooker.  It just dissolves.  Fruit pulp goes into ice cream.
>(sorry Vegans ;-).

No need to be sorry, as there are some recipes for vegan
vegan ice-"creme"  :-)

I do have a ice-creme maker that one places into the freezer and then 
allows it to churn away producing vegan ice-"creme" or fruit sherbert.
The results are quite favourable and flavourable  :-)


>> I don't know if there are any
>> disadavantages to eating only finely ground fiber as opposed to
>> larger chunks that result from chewing.  I wouldn't think so, but
>> I could be wrong.

>You're not, finely ground food is more easily and completely digested. 
>Healthy teeth need to be used, but nobody lives on just juice anyway.

That's good to hear.  You're not, perchance, an advocate of
"Fletcherism", are you?  You know, Horace Fletcher (turn of the
century dietitian) who advocated the practice of throughly chewing
one's food as an aid to good health.  I think the recommended
number of chews was 50!  Ouch my jaw!  I don't know about chewing one's
way to good health, but this might work to chew one's way to
loose weight :-)    I can't imagine chewing for so long, unless
it is gum.  Thank goodness for the juicer and its production
of finely ground fiber.   :-)

						cheers,
							ted
From: drew@cs.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Organically grown foods (was Re: What's the Best Juicer)
Date: 19 Dec 1992 23:01:42 +1100
Organization: Computer Science Department, ANU, Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.anu.edu.au

georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark) writes:
>Also, buying organic foods, as Ted suggests, is non-essential. There is
>no data anywhere supporting claims that organic food is healthier than
>food grown with fertilizer and pesticides.

It (organically grown food) sure tastes better in my book! Maybe there is
no "hard data" supporting claims that organic food is healthier but I know
some people who simply cannot tolerate the trace amounts of pesticides
in common foodstuffs. By not tolerate, I mean they get sick. (My wife's
sister-in-law is one such person.)

Besides which, organically grown foods are much kinder to the environment
and fortunately in Australia we have increasing numbers of farmers and
food producers recognising this. It is possible for example to buy regular
"off the shelf" breakfast cerals made from 100% pure organically grown
wheat. We can also buy 100% organically grown wheat flour and the resulting
bread tastes many, many times superior to the stuff that comes from 
pesticide grown wheat. Of course taste is a subjective thing, but I am
pretty confident that even you would discern the difference :-).

This being said, I still think the bulk of people's health problems come
from a bad diet laden with fats and refined foods and light on fibre
and complex carbohydrates.

Drew.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg