From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Passing out Condoms (Was Re: Better Off Than Four Years Ago NOT)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:14:44 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Aug31.214652.1524@den.mmc.com> sims@possum.den.mmc.com (John Sims) writes:
>nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>> You didn't answer the question!  Not everybody is a member of your
>> church.  So to repeat:   What are you proposing we do TODAY about
>> 14 and 15 year old kids who are having sex and producing babies?          
>> If you were emperor what specific steps would you take?
>Peter,
>I was attempting to provide information about what my church did in
>response to your statement that "the church" isn't doing anything.  I
>pointed out that I couldn't speak for all churches, but only speak from
>my own experience.  Furthermore, I never claimed I wanted to be emperor.

  I didn't say you did.  "If you were emperor" is a rhetorical device
  which means "if you were in charge", i.e., if practical politics were
  not an impediment what would you do?

>If you cannot tell that I advocate abstinence from my earlier postings,
>there is no point in continuing this discussion.

  I advocate abstinence but unlike you I don't live in a fantasyland
  where I think that holding a private, personal opinion is the same as 
  actually addressing a problem.  You still haven't said what you think
  should be done to reduce the risk of prgnancy and death for all those
  kids who are not practicing abstinence.

>> We're not talking about *your* family or *your* church -- we're
>> talking about all those millions of kids out there who don't HAVE
>> families or other sources or moral guidance, and who are busily 
>> having sex and making babies and getting STD's.   What are you
>> proposing we do about that?   
>I've already stated that we should encourage abstinence in the younger
>kids.  What more do you want? 

  I want you to be more specific about what you mean.  Who do you mean by
  "we" and how to suggest abstinence be encouraged?  Keep in mind that 
  we have no legal control over media and advertising content, and that 
  an enormous % of these kids don't have functional families.

  I advocate that schools make condoms available to any student who wants
  them and that they have required courses explaining the basics of human
  reproduction, sexually-transmitted diseases, and best techniques to
  prevent these.  If we start this program in the 13-14 year olds we'll 
  get to most kids before they reach the big dropout years.   

  I don't *like* my proposal but it's better that nothing in that at least
  a few kids will be helped.  The difference between my propsal and yours
  is that mine is *specific*.  There is a clear set of mechanical steps to
  take, and indeed, some cities are already starting to take them.  Your 
  proposal is undefined and vague.  


> And I happen to feel that my family and my church are very relevant to my
> viewpoint.  Apparently, since you feel condoms are a panacea here,

  You should hone your reading skills -- I have made it quite clear that 
  I think that condoms are a last-resort measure and that raising kids 
  with better values would be far preferablle; but nobody here, including
  you, has made a single suggestion about how to improve the way kids
  are raised.


> viewpoint is that abstinence is a non-solution.  Since you won't allow this
> as a solution, no further discourse is warranted.

  I'm not "disallowing" it; I'm saying it isn't happening now and nobody
  has suggested a way to encourage it to happen.


>But, speaking of not answering the question, in my last post I asked you
>what YOU are going to do about the large percentage (by your own
>admission) of kids who don't wear the condoms you've given them.

  They will get pregnant or sick or die.   I've said repeatedly that 
  condoms will only save a few lives, or prevent a few lives from being
  wasted by unwed pregnancy.   

  Talking about "abstinence" without concrete suggestions on how to 
  promote it is like talking about ending war by "not fighting" -- 
  it's practically a tautology.  Condom distribution in public schools
  and mandatory sex education are specific programs with concrete examples
  and if done in the early teenage years before kids drop out will reach
  the vast majority of kids.  All I'm asking for is something similarly
  specific from the abstinence crowd, that will reach a similar % of
  kids.  Church and family -based programs only reach kids who go to
  church or have functional families and this is only a small % of the
  population, especially among the poor, and probably not the kids who 
  are most at risk.     


---peter