HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: tmeses (was Re: A whole nother story)
Date: 11 Apr 92 01:53:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: sgi417.SLAGLE.92Apr10185343
	<Apr.8.11.10.49.1992.1239@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
	<32394@darkstar.ucsc.edu>
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co., Sunnyvale, Ca.
In-reply-to: chelle@cats.ucsc.edu's message of 8 Apr 92 21:41:44 GMT

In article <Apr.8.11.10.49.1992.1239@gandalf.rutgers.edu> rarosenb@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Robert Rosenberg) writes:
  >The expression "a whole nother" is the Great American Tmesis; the word
  >"another" has been split by "whole."  It's just easier on the tongue
  >than saying "a whole other."  And it's everywhere, from the radio news
  >to the classroom lectern, from Texas to Maine, from Ripken to Murray
  >(sigh--the good old days).

----
If it's a tmesis at all, it's an imdamnproper one.  A tmesis
is supposed to separate two parts of a compound word.  In this
case it would be "an whole other", wouldn't it?

--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: rkimm@ameris.ameritech.com (Robert L. Kimmel)
Subject: Re: Loaded language in the abortion debate
Organization: Ameritech, Hoffman Estates, IL
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 14:38:18 GMT


I prefer "anti-life" and "anti-choice."

-BK
From: lmebgo@eds.ericsson.se (Bengt G{llmo)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Comma splices?
Date: 7 Apr 92 11:14:57 GMT
Organization: LM Ericsson, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <1992Apr4.190442.8966@cl.cam.ac.uk>, bck1@cl.cam.ac.uk 
(Brian Kelk) writes:
> The construct you call a 'comma splice' I see quite often here in the UK
> in informal writing, and occasionally in more formal use. I don't like it
> myself and hope it doesn't catch on.  :-(
> 
> I'd be interested to know what happens in other languages.

I cannot recall any discussion of this "problem" in Swedish.  Comma splices
are used sometimes for some sort of poetic effect (come to think of it,
they are common in poetry!).  If they are frowned upon, it is because they
tend to give long sentences, which is considered bad in non-fiction.
By the way, the semicolon, which is an alternative to the comma in English, 
is almost extinct in Swedish, I seem to be one of the few who uses it.

(Ooops, that last sentence contains a comma splice, which I wrote quite 
spontaneously!  That comma could be replaced with a semicolon, also in 
Swedish. One of the few possible uses of a semicolon in Swedish is to 
separate two parts of a sentence that mean essentially the same thing.
But, most writers would use a comma or a full stop.) 

Bengt
-- 
Bengt Gallmo                        e-mail: lmebgo@eds.ericsson.se
Telefonaktiebolaget L M Ericsson    phone:  +46 8 719 1940
S-126 25 STOCKHOLM                  fax:    +46 8 719 3988
SWEDEN

The bad thing about good things is that they usually come to an end.
The good thing about bad things is that they, also, usually come to an end.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Subject: Re: Dictionary of American and British Usage
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
In-reply-to: dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu's message of 13 Apr 92 18:04:00 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co., Sunnyvale, Ca.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 04:36:17 GMT

In article <204851@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
   In article <1992Apr13.151101.5158@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
   >"Sunny side up" is well-known to the British, but I
   >cannot recall ever having heard it over here. "Up" is the phrase.

   Where is "over here"?  California?

   I've never heard sunny-side-up eggs referred to any other way; I grew up in
   southern Illinois, Nebraska, and Maryland.

----
I've had breakfast in most of the 50 states and I've never
met a waitress who didn't know what "sunny side up" meant.
As an added twist, though, it seems that in some places
the designation "eggs up" implies that they are to be
somewhat more fully cooked than "eggs sunny side up".  I
suppose that "sunny" implies a full, round, runny yolk
to some, while just "up" means more cooked and not so
sunny.  I like mine runny, so I have learned to say the
full "sunny side up" if I expect to get them that way.
Of course nothing is foolproof.  Some places burn everything.

--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
From: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Subject: Re: Dictionary of American and English Usage (part 01/02)
Reply-To: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 12:15:53 GMT

In article <jwb.702255223@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au>,
jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen) writes:
> smithj@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes:
> >catsup n : tomatoe ketchup
> 
> More often tomato sauce. Ketchup sounds US to me.

Ketchup sounds fine to me.

> >high school n : grades 9-12 (ages ~15-18)
> >high school diploma n : high school graduating certificate
> >high (school), senior n : grades 10-12 (ages ~16-18)
> 
> Called "Forms 1 - 6" in the UK?

There is no real direct translation I think. The school levels (at least
when I was at school) are;

5-6	Infant School
7-10	Junior School	which together are refered to as Primary School
11-18	Secondary School (not to be confused with Secondary Modern which is a
	type of secondary school).

Primary school does not have fixed names for each year in my experience
but they are normally called classes (eg class 1, class B, etc).

Secondary schools are normally 1st-5th forms with the last two years
being the lower and upper 6th (at least in my school).

Which brings to light another US-UK (at least) difference, ie the
suffixes on 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. This is particulary obvious in date
representation (today is the 6th April and not 6 April or April 6 for
example). but I have noticed that in general first is not written 1st in
the US.

Simon.

  Simon Patience
  Open Software Foundation			Phone: +33-76-63-48-72
  Research Institute				FAX:   +33-76-51-05-32
  2 Avenue De Vignate				Email: sp@gr.osf.org
  38610 Gieres, France				       uunet!gr.osf.org!sp
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: wcsjc@alfred.carleton.ca (John Coughlin)
Subject: Re: Missing syllables in place names
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:11:44 GMT

How about Maryleborne(sp?) in London, pronounced "Marlybone".
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus)
Subject: Re: Apostrophes in possessive forms
Organization: Open Software Foundation Research Institute, Grenoble
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:16:21 GMT

ethanb@ptolemy.astro.washington.edu (Ethan Bradford) writes:
>Strunk and White say that the bare approstrophe is correct for a fixed
>set of historical figures (I remember Jesus' and Moses').

The rule I learnt was that the S could (should) be omitted if the last
syllable ends in "ses" or something similar, to avoid having three
similar sounds in a row.  This applies to Jesus and Moses, and also to
Isis and perhaps Sid Vicious.

,
Eamonn
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: xsun@watmath.waterloo.edu (X. Sun (Don))
Subject: Good reference books on English usage ?
Keywords: English, Usage, Reference
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 00:14:00 GMT

Hi, there
	Is there anybody who may recommend some good English usage reference books
to me? Your help is very much appreciated.

p.s. please respond to:
		xsun@math.waterloo.edu

Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:3115 soc.culture.british:6717
From: jimj@cleanplate.EBay.Sun.COM (James D. Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Dictionary of American and British Usage
Date: 17 Apr 92 19:32:12 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: cleanplate.ebay.sun.com

In article <SLAGLE.92Apr14213613@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com> slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
>   >"Sunny side up" is well-known to the British, but I
>   >cannot recall ever having heard it over here. "Up" is the phrase.
>   Where is "over here"?  California?
>   I've never heard sunny-side-up eggs referred to any other way; I grew up in
>   southern Illinois, Nebraska, and Maryland.


As a native Californian, I remember hearing the phrase "sunny-side up" quite
often in my youth (20+ years ago), and I think my parents still refer to
them that way.  But most restaurants out here now refer to them as
eggs "over easy."  If you asked for sunny-side up, they'd understand, I
think.  But they'd probably confirm by asking, "You mean, over easy?" 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: userisra@mts.ucs.ualberta.ca (Mark Israel)
Subject: Re: P's and q's
Originator: lnds@zeus.biochem.ualberta.ca
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 06:04:39 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.160452.12287@eng.cam.ac.uk>, pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes:

> pete@btcase.bt.co.uk (Pete Harris) writes:
>
>> Please could someone enlighten me as to the origin of the phrase ...
>> mind one's p's and q's
>
> I heard is was probably from:
>
> "Mind one's pieds (feet) and queues (wigs???)"
>
> from the last century I think when the upper social classes went to
> balls etc and had to be nimble on their feet.  (Not that my history is
> very good.)
>
> Anyone else???

   That's as good a theory as any.  Another theory:  children just 
learning to write may get the letters 'p' and 'q' confused.  Another:
"Mind your pints and quarts."

   And here's one I just thought of:  a corruption of "Mind your 'please's
and 'Thank you's."

   Amazing how such phrases can survive for centuries when no one is
sure what they mean!  The parrot instinct is alive and well in the human
race.

userisra@mts.ucs.ualberta.ca		Mark Israel
Instinctive grammatical moralizer.
From: gtoal@robobar.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Webster's on Sentence Adverbs
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:41:00 GMT
Organization: Robobar Ltd., Perivale, Middx., ENGLAND.

In article <1992Apr3.184410.20647@unx.sas.com> sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com (Gary Merrill) writes:
>The only candidate I have for such adverbs is "truthfully," as in
>
>	Truthfully, it's been a long week.

Truthfully I am saying it has been a long week, ie I am saying it
while I am full of truth.

Hopefully, I'm going home => Full of hope I am going home, ie I am
going home full of hope.

Not the same as the Germanic hopefully at all.

Graham
--
From: charlie@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Charles Geyer)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Go figure
Date: 14 Apr 92 02:54:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: news2.1992Apr14.025432.5616
Organization: School of Statistics, University of Minnesota

In article <1216@lysator.liu.se> ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson) writes:

> Recently I have seen the expression _Go figure_ in many places. It
> seems to be a preferred way to end postings in rec.pets.cats for
> instance. What does it mean, what is its style worth and where does it
> come from? (Not geography-wise, but rather full sentence-wise.)

In article <20082@castle.ed.ac.uk>, gtoal@castle.ed.ac.uk (Graham Toal) writes:

> It means 'Go figure it out for yourself' which in turn means
> 'Go work it out for yourself' ('figure' is being used figuratively,
> unless the postings were on sci.maths :-) )
>
> It is, of course, American, and fairly standard off-net idiom.

In article <1992Apr13.092756@IASTATE.EDU> mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie A Coffin)
writes:

> I think this expression carries the connotation that the speaker is himself
> unable to explain the phenomenon in question.  Anyone agree with me on this?

I get the impression that it usually refers to phenomena that are inexplicable,
the expansion being something like "Try to figure that out, if you can".

I see it mostly applied on the net to bozotic foolishness that has no (other)
explanation.

-- 
Charles Geyer
School of Statistics
University of Minnesota
charlie@umnstat.stat.umn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: harper@oracorp.com (Douglas Harper)
Subject: Re: "The exact same" vs. "exactly the same"
Organization: ORA Corporation, Ithaca, New York
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 18:04:46 GMT

In article <Apr.3.16.11.52.1992.21916@andromeda.rutgers.edu> dmr@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Daniel Rosenblum) writes:
]Another phrase that I sometimes use that seems to be limited to
]New York( City)ers 
]...is "the exact same", as in "It's
]the exact same thing" instead of "It's exactly the same thing".
]
]Is this known or used anywhere outside the New York City area?

I've heard it in Alabama, California, Illinois, upstate New York,
Pennsylvania and Virginia.  I've heard it mockingly used in Ottawa to
tweak Americans.

-- 
Douglas Harper          harper@oracorp.com      (607) 277-6093 [ext 252]
#
Question for the net:  who said of the Holy Roman Empire that it was
neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire?
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:2855 soc.culture.british:5919
From: ssmith@eoin.net.netcom.com (Shannon Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Dictionary of American and English Usage (part 01/02)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 92 12:42:04 PDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Amethyst Systems

marcus@sun.pcl.ac.uk (Marcus Harvey) writes:

> In article <jwb.702255223@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au> jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.a
> >
> >More often tomato sauce. Ketchup sounds US to me.
> >
> Tomato sauce is what you put on your spaghetti. Ketchup is ketchup.
> Perhaps you're older than me or you've got more class?

Interesting.  Among my children's father's family, who are English,
the elder refer to the stuff that goes on hamburgers as tomato(e?)
sauce, the younger as catsup/ketchup.  The stuff that goes on
spaghetti is spaghetti sauce to the elder, and tomato sauce to the
younger.  The elder are in their mid 60s, and the younger in the mid
30s.

If you put catsup on your spaghetti, the preceeding may have been
confusing for you :-)

---
Shannon Smith                     ssmith@xocolotl.com

     "For the world trusts us with power... they trust
      us to do what's right."    
                   G. Bush, "State of the Union," 1992
From: erikb@eik.ii.uib.no (Erik Boman)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Question: Multiply or multiplication ?
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:41:36 GMT
Organization: Institute of Informatics, University of Bergen, Norway

Hi,

I have a question to English speaking persons with some knowledge
of mathematics. I am writing my graduate thesis in English
(that's a foreign language to me), and I am somewhat confused about the
usage of the words "multiply" and "multiplication".
Normally, "multiply" is a verb and "multiplication" is a noun.
But in the context of linear algebra, the operation of 
multiplying matrices is sometimes called 
  "a matrix multiply"
instead of
  "a matrix multiplication".

The following examples illustrate cases where I am in doubt 
which term is most correct:

  "... vectorize the matrix multiply (-ication)" 
  "... count the number of operations in the multiply (-ication)"

I admit that "the number of multiplications in the (matrix) multiplication"
doesn't sound very good. To use "multiply" to distinguish the higher-level 
operation is possibly a good idea in this case.

(Note: It is my impression that Americans generally tend to use "multiply"
 more often than the Britons. But I may be wrong ...)
 
If you have any well founded opinions on this question, please
send me email or post to this group.

-- 
Erik Boman 
University of Bergen, Norway
email: erikb@ii.uib.no                          
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:2820 soc.culture.british:5815
From: dant@logos.wr.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Dictionary of American and English Usage (part 01/02)
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:02:17 GMT
Followup-To: alt.usage.english
Organization: Upper Left Coast Liberation Army

goddard+@cs.cmu.edu (Nigel Goddard) writes:
>
>After 7 years in the US, I recently found out that catsup is in
>fact ketchup and is even pronounced the same way!!!  It never
>occurred to me it would be prounounced anything other than cat-sup.

I've never been too sure which spelling of that word is correct.
"Ketchup" always seemed to be more phonetic, even if Merriam-Webster
prefers "catsup".


>"epoch".  In the UK, the "e" is long (I think!) and the "o" is an "o".
>	  In the US, the "e" is short and the "o" is an "i" (i.e., "epic").

Don't be so quick with the generalizations about US pronunciations.  I
pronounce it /Epak/ not /EpIk/.  Merriam-Webster gives three
pronunciations (translated into ASCII IPA): /Ep@k/ /Epak/ and /ipak/,
and says that some Americans as well as most British use the last.

---
Dan Tilque	--	dant@logos.WR.TEK.COM
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:2914 soc.culture.british:6045
From: marcus@sun.pcl.ac.uk (Marcus Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Dictionary of American and British Usage
Date: 10 Apr 92 15:15:43 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic of Central London

In article <1992Apr07.231413.22903@robobar.co.uk> gtoal@robobar.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>In article <1992Apr5.174521.25924@osf.org> dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks) writes:
>>This double assertion -- that Britons understand most Americanisms
>>(presumably through TV), and that they will soon be in common use --
>>doesn't really stand scrutiny.  Even excluding strongly culture-specific
>>terms, things have really changed a lot in the last ten years if Britons
>>understand the full American semantics of:
>
>Let's see.  No dictionaries...
>
> iceberg lettuce,
>just a variety of lettuce; we don't get them here I think.

Try TESCO's.

Marcus Harvey, Polytechnic of Central London IRS
marcus@uk.ac.pcl.sun - JANET  marcus%sun.pcl.ac.uk@ukacrl - BITNET/EARN

                                                          ...Bubble Up!
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:3109 soc.culture.british:6666
From: jackson@soldev.tti.com (Dick Jackson)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Dictionary of American and English Usage (part 01/02)
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:21:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: ttidca.34620
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.

In article <1992Apr12.003603.21989@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
->In article <1992Apr10.173820.2549@col.hp.com>, lpj@col.hp.com (Laura Johnson) writes:
-><jackson@soldev.tti.com (Dick Jackson) writes:
-><>
-><> My Merkan wife is wont to say "I'm going to make spaghetti tonight". What
-><> she actually does is to concoct a sauce with minced beef and a tomato
-><> base.(Its very good.) Then she boils some noodles for a while, we put
-><> the one on the other and eat. I believe and therefore claim authoritatively
-><> that in standard American "spaghetti" means a particular kind of sauce.
-><
-><Nope. The pasta is "spaghetti."
->
->Correct.  (The entire dish of noodles and sauce is also called `spaghetti',
->as you said.)  Proof:  Some people eat spaghetti with no sauce at all (perhaps
->just some melted cheese or butter).  (I can't imagine how they can find
->such bland noodles palatable.)  More proof:  Grocery stores sell "spaghetti
->sauce" in jars.

I think you chaps have missed the point.  Nobody on this learned and
well-travelled group is claiming that "spaghetti" actually is the sauce.
If you read my original post, you will see that I claim that most ordinary
Merkans think of the sauce when they say the "s" word.  Since making this
claim I have interrogated several (actually three) California natives and
my results show 100 per cent agreement with my assertion.

Actually I am not sure who the second chap was agreeing with when he
typed "Correct". He seems to make points on both sides of this dispute.

Dick Jackson
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Question: Multiply or multiplication ?
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 04:05:02 GMT


In article <1992Apr10.225138.16072@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>
dabachma@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald A Bachman) writes,
umbrage-takingly:

>charlie@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Charles Geyer) writes:

>>I have never heard that usage except in talk about
>>computer programming.  IMHO it is not English but cute
>>hacker talk which follows the principle that all verbs can
>>be nouned and vice versa.

>Whoa! 

Are you talking to a horse?  If neigh, proceed.

>the quip about "cute hacker talk" was most assuredly
>uncalled for.

How assuredly *is* that?

Well, it was a quip, that's for sure.  One of the good
things about cute hacker talk is that it's cute.  Even
better is that it's hacker talk.  Hackers (your scribe among
them) *love* it.  I hack talk and talk hack, all day, every
day.  Verbing nouns and nouning verbs, that meats my potatoes
and (whoops, well never mind).

>It is statements like this, that make mathematicians seem
>pompous, weird, and generally unstable.

On the contrary, that impression of mathematicians comes
exclusively from the fact that they are pompous, weird, and
generally unstable.  They will be the first to confirm this,
I'm sure.  You will admit, I hope, that they *all* talk
funny?

However, as a once-upon-a-time mathematician, I can attest
that nearly all mathematicians have a great sense of humor
and tolerate quips quite well.

Computer-science students, on the other hand ...

>As a computer science major who has completed enough hours in
>math to qualify for a degree, I have no desire to see people working
>in either field made the target of petty statements.

...  (unless they're hackers, of course) quite often resent
quips, because no one will tell them the algorithm for it.

>BTW, how is new terminology invented, if not through
>unconventional usage of existing terms?  

Close enough for government work, anyway.

>I suppose that professional jargon also is not English.

Depends on who's queueing, I think.  Quite a lot of it is
Japanese.
-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888