From: jazz@netcom.com (David C. Navas)
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 10:29:22 GMT

In article <TOMSTER.92Oct9210910@bigwpi.WPI.EDU> tomster@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Thomas Richard Dibble) writes:
>If you are openning a file, you mean, you also want to be able to type into
>the spreadsheet simultaneously?  That seems rather silly.  Of course it is the

Yes I DO!

>same application.  It is quite apparent, however, no matter how dense the user
>is, that it is a different action.

Let's say I was going to copy/paste something between spreadsheets and opened
up the file requester.  OOPS!  I forgot to select the Copy item (a key got
lost, maybe).  Which would you prefer, selecting the original document and
doing a "Copy", or closing the file requester, doing the operation, and
starting the file requester up again?

Modality is a useful crutch for the non-power user.  It is a crutch I'd
like to be able to turn off, though.

>You expect that somehow, majically,
>when the user hits a key, all the applications will decide who the keystroke
>was meant for, no problems?  Sounds kinda cool, in a Communism sort of way.
>Good luck making it work.

Oh please.
The key goes to the active window, and then to the active widget/dialog.
I think (correct me if I've been lead astray) that the argument is that
a user may want to switch back to the spreadsheet without some high
overhead cost, such as a file dialog box (which might be displaying a
directory over a slow network) having to come down and then, eventually,
back up again.

>Which was exactly *his* point.  He doesn't think 'Alt-<EP>'.  He doesn't
>think at all, any more than you think 'Pull down Edit, click on Paste'.
>It is much more natural than that.

Yes.

>I don't understand this fixation with the dialog box.  Well, Bill, since *you*
>don't seem to know why it is so important to be able to access *all* the
>menu items from within a dialog box, maybe someone else can help you out.
>Anyone?

Well, maybe not access to all of them. But it would be useful to be able
to cut/paste an app name into a file dialog box.  Although the Mac variety does
not have a place for the text to go, some other filerequesters do....

Hypertext-like systems are better than this, though.

>Huh?  The 'real' shortcuts?

I agree, this was really weird.

>HOWEVER!  Windows also has those one-key shortcuts you so admire.  At least,
>it did the last time *I* checked.  The point here is modularity, something
>which is at the very soul of the pc.

I didn't think PCs were allowed to have souls on csm.advocacy?
:)

>Honestly, Bill.  You are pushing this dialog box thing way too far.  If you
>can't explain *exactly* what you mean by it, I suggest you drop it.  I would
>rather you explain yourself, because it sounds like it'll be a good one ...

Hmm, he has gotten rather confusing down here, hasn't he?

>Now Bill.  You just assertained that low-level brain activity is faster than
>high-level.  Now you're saying that the mouse is faster, but reason it out
>by using higher brain functions (grabbing, image recognition).  This is
>necessary with a mouse because not everything is in exactly the same place
>all the time.  The 'E' key never moves from its spot above the 'd' on
>my keyboard.  I don't have to do any of this recognition of grabbing.  The
>Alt-key shortcuts, by your own definitions, should be faster.

Repositioning your hand from the mouse, to the keyboard, and back again is
a very time-consuming operation.

>He knew where it was, that was enough.  I don't care if the space bar is called
>the Pretzel-Modifier bar.  It is there, under my thumb.  The Command button
>is in the same place as the Alt key on a PC.

Yep, someone is making a difference without distinction again....

-- 
David Navas                                   	jazz@netcom.com
Co-author of: Web Data Acq. and Anal.		dnavas@oracle.com
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