From: a0cb@odin.cc.pdx.edu (Chris Bertholf)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Re: Conversations with a Rabbi
Date: 23 Dec 92 18:47:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: pdxgate.6613
Organization: Not germane to this conversation

:In article <6595@pdxgate.UUCP> a0cb@odin.cc.pdx.edu (Chris Bertholf) writes:
:>khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:
:>
:>>This is actually a very good test for everybody to see just how strong
:>>of a Jew they are. I am sure (hope not) that somebody out there is going
:>>to reply to him and ask for that ... booklet. 
:>
:>Sounds like you might be afraid of what that ... booklet might have to say!
:
:Good guess. I am afraid of what 
:people that don't know a danm thing about Judaism and are Jews 

This would seem to disqualify them as Jews based on **YOUR** "goy" criteria :-)

:going to read in that booklet and going to do afterwards.

Why are you afraid of what others might do.  What others do may or may not
be right for them, regardless of what is right for you!

:Personally, I would not read it, just because I don't need it.

That is good for **YOU**.  However, after reading your atrocious
grammar, I think you could use all of the readin', writin', and
'rithmetic practice you can get.  :-)

:I am afraid of that booklet, but I am certainly not afraid of what
:that booklet has to say. 

That is an oxymoron. Unless what you are saying is that the mere sight
of the booklet frightens you.  From the way you write, I'd assume that
the mere sight of any book frightens you.  But, lets go with what you
said... If you are not afraid of what the ... booklet has to say, then
I assume you would not be opposed to reading it.  You just have to get
over your fear of books first, right? :-)

:You don't have to be a genies to see that it is just a banch of xtian tricks.

First, I can't be a genie. Second, I don't know what a banch is.

:>
:>>So, my fellow Jews, it is
:>>the self-check time! If you are even thinking that this guy might be
:>>right and that you better check it out, of course, not for the
:>>converting reasons, but just out of curiosity, then you are in trouble!
:>
:>I'd have to agree here.  Having an open mind and engaging in an 
:>investigation into this for purely educational purposes definitely
:>means you are losing your grip on your Judaism. NOT!
:
:What do you want me to say? "Yeah, go ahead, it is just for educational
:reasons!" 

Yes, exactly that.

:And you know what, I believe you. You would probaly do it for
:the educational reasons. But why would you want to know about this
:stuff? What kind of education do you expect to get from those booklets.

I would gain an understanding of where these people are coming from,
what it is they believe, how it is different from what I believe,
the ability to engage in rational discourse, and, hopefully, the 
ability to pick apart the arguments based on what I already know.

:I guess, this is that R. vs. Orth. thing again. Every time I get into
:this it is always strange to me how people can't understand such a
:simple thing as this.

I can and do understand fear, close-mindedness, and an inability to
explore anything which might contradict that which you already know.
It is a sociological phenomenon that is the result of too much 
groupthink and not enough individual intellectual exploration.

:You are so into this one moment that you can't see
:beyond all of this. Then we will argue with you on something else about
:R. and Orth. One living a goyish life and saying that he is living a
:Jewish life is just funny and sad. 

It is funny and sad to you.  To me, it is different.  I don't try to impose
what I have found is right for me on others.  Yes, I know you think that
is the problem... I, on the other hand, think that is what is wrong with
you;  you are unable to believe that someone elses interpretation of
Judaism may be just as right for them as your interpretation is for
you.  This is the age old OCR infighting taken to another level.

:You can call this whatever yo want, but reading that matirial is not
                            ^^^you                    ^^^^^^^^material
:educatining you, but making you more like a goy. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^educating

Only if I accept it.  Not if I read it, and dismiss it.  The difference
is that I am now aware of what type of arguments will be foisted in my 
direction, and I will be better able to deal with them.

:You move your norm down
:by 1/1000000 and think it is just a very small amount that can be
:considered nothing. Well, nothing + nothing is something more then
:before isn't it? I know you disagree. Do what yo want to do. I am no
:judge for you. 

No, you are no judge for me.  So, quit trying to be one. If you are not
judging me, then what is all of the "goy" you thrust in my direction.

:You want to look like all other goyim? Fine, it is your
:decision, whatever you might call or explain what you are doing. I know
:you disagree with this too. There is nothing to argue about. You don't
:want to do it and that is it. It is probably hard for you see what it
:really is, but it is twice as hard for me to explain to you why it is
:wrong especially when you know really want to hear that.
                           ^^^^don't?

You can't explain why it is wrong, because it isn't!  Not because I 
don't want to hear it (which would be hard in this forum of text :-),
but because you don't have a rational argument.

:I don't know what else to say. We have been through this before. Nobody
:seemed to prove me wrong, but everybody just droped it in a while. Of
:course, no will - nothing.

There is nothing that can be 'proved' in a matter of opinion.  Opinions
are like a**holes, everyone has one, and, from my perspective, yours
stinks.

:I'd actually prefer that you don't reply to this, since it will just

I'm sure you would.

:start it all over again. And there is no point for us to argue about
:something you just don't want ot do. 

I am not the one who doesn't want to do something.  I advocate doing
something, you advocate doing nothing.

:And about that boolet... No, you won't lose your Judaism because of
:reading that thing. You would just make your first step to losing it.

Not necessarily.  Again, you have no cogent argument here except your
fears...

:Will you stop after it or will you go on down? That is a very difficult
:question. I can't answer that. Trying out something new is not being
:completely satisfied with what you have right now.

Reading something does not imply 'trying something new', per-se.  It
implies reading something.  It is what people might do with what has
been read that worries you.  Try to keep that distinction clearer in
your arguments.

:
:>
:>>Yes, that's exactly how it starts. Just curious, you say. Well, the only
:>>reason you can be curios of what that guy really has to say is because
:>>you don't have the feel (I am not talking about the knowledge anymore
:>>here) for Judaism.
:>
:>How what starts?  If there is nothing true about what he has to say, then
:>what could it start.  You sound like you are searching yourself here, and
:>trying to gain concensus by getting others to join you in your less than
:>open minded (and, it sounds like somewhat strained) ability to explore
:>your beliefs.
:
:Being open minded, my friend, does not mean putting everything in your
:head including garbage.

I'm not sure we are friends. net.acquaintances maybe, but I have a higher
standard for those I call my friends.  You have no idea if it is garbage
because you have never seen it.  It may be garbage, but how do you know
until you read it?

:
:>
:>>No matter how much you know, do not listen to what he
:>>says! Although, he says pretty stupid things that are supposed to be
:>>obvious to everybody, there of course is somebody who knows alittle bit
:>>more then yo do.
:>           ^^you
:>
:>Yes. Close your ears and eyes.  Don't listen. Don't think about how
:>it may be wrong (or right) and dismiss it completely.  It doesn't
:>have the slightest meaning in your lives, so ignore it instead of
:>understanding it, and being better preparred to deal with similar
:>arguments with thoughtful, reasoned responses.
:
:Well, you pretty much explained it all, but you did it like it is being
:closed minded again.

It is!

:If you know that it is not true, then you don't
:have to read it again to prove it wrong. 

How can you know anything about the ideas in this booklet?  You
are ignorant of its contents and cannot make any assumptions
about what is said until you see it.  With that said, you have
no idea of the validity of the material.  This is true for any
book, not just the ... booklet.

:On the other hand, if you are
:not sure that it is wrong then you would probaly want to read it. 

It has nothing to do with whether I know it is wrong. See above explanation.

:Of course, it does not have to be this exact way. You don't understand and
:you not even trying. '... ignore it instead of understanding it'? Yes,
:of course! Why in the world would you want to 'understand it'? 

Why would I?  I have already explained that!  Can't you read?

:>
:>>So, what do yo do then? You go and ask a Rabbi about
:>>the things that you don't understand. Don't just leave it hanging in the
:>>air. Ask! BUT Do not accept it first! Even if you don't know or not
:>>satisfied with the answer of a Rabbi, do not accept what he says!
:>
:>Now this makes some sense.  Consult with a Rabbi.  Share the information
:>you have investigated, and try to come to an understanding on your own,
:>with the learned help of a Rabbi.  I'm not sure how this good suggestion
:>got in here with all of the stupid ones, but it did!
:>
:
:I am sorry I am not as smart as you are, but the information I was
:talking about is the info that you forcefully get. 

In which post?  You are talking about a booklet that is obtained
by request, not one that is pushed on you by forceful means.

:Like in case of those
:missionaries. You read it, but you did not really expect to read it
:here, and besides you read it and argue it because you don't want other
:Jews that are not that familiar with Judaism to fall for it. 

Just because someone posts here, in an attempt to have a discussion
about differing interpretation of different writings, does not make
them a missionary.  Jews have spent years interpreting these writings,
often disagreeing about different words, the age of the writing and
the version, etc., etc. ad infinitum.  Now others are also interpreting
them.  The ludicrousness of your argument is that you unerringly accept
the interpretation that **suits your personal conviction to Judaism**
and reject all others.  Why do you think there is so much infighting
between O, C, and R.

:Thanks for the evaluation of my IQ again!!!

I am not evaluating your IQ. I am refuting your arguments, which are not
very well developed.

:
:>>In the worst case you know one thing: You are Jewish and that stuff is not
:>>for you! I know that this is not (not always) a Reform point of view, but
:>>please take it from Orthodox this time. In any case make sure you don't
:>>accept what he says. He is trained to get people that don't really know
:>>about the Bible and don't have that Jewish feel. Don't let him destroy us! 
:>
:>He is not trying to destroy us!  He has a different viewpoint, and it
:>bears consideration (especially if you are comfortable with what you
:>know and believe).
:
:Sure he is not. And if the information that he gives us destroys us, it
:is Ok, since it is not his intention, right? No, I don't think so. 

It won't destroy Judaism.  The infighting and secular separatism of the
Jews will probably do that on its own.

:Don't
:make him look like an brainwashed angel. He is brainwashed allright, but
:he is no angel! And don't tell me that I am as brainwashed as he is
:because I am Orthodox, that will just show that you don't understand
:anything at all.(Although, a lot of things already did).

No. It shows that I disagree with your interpretation of many things
and I disagree with your opinion.  It does not show that I don't know
anything.  But, based on your earlier statements... If I don't know
anything, and I am smarter than you, what is it that you know?

:
:  Why is it wrong for a set of people that are Jewish
:>(culturally) to wish to maintain the cultural AND religious aspects of
:>Judaism to also believe that the messiah was JC.
:
:Listen, do you have any limits at all? "What is wrong with believing in
:j.c.?" Oh, sure nothing wrong with that. Are by any chance a xtian? If
:you are not then it is another proof that you are living a goyish life.

I may or may not be living a goyish life, but that is irrelevant to
this discussion.  What I am saying is that there is a lot more to
Judaism than religion, although it is the single largest defining
facet of 'membership'.  I am also saying that you have no right to
sit in judgement of others that wish to maintain a cultural
heritage, by birthright or otherwise, because some portion of
that persons belief system differs from yours.

:You are talking on the level of US Constitution, not on the level of
:Judaism. You are talking about freedom of religions, not about what
:Jusaism considers right or wrong. 

I am not talking about freedom of religion.  I am talking about
preserving cultural heritage.  Were you aware that 80-90% of
intermarriages produce children that wish to pursue the
religious aspects of Judaism? Even when one parent is non-practicing! 
The reason for that is due to the continuation of Jewish cultural 
practices.  For the Jews to continue through time, these people
must be made welcome while they re-discover their Judaism.
Your attitude is what can drive those people, searching for their
Judaism (which may have been temporarily lost in one or more ways),
away.  That is what is killing Judaism.

:All of those things are not Judaism,
:although, a lot of them have alot taken from Judaism, but not all. So,
:Constitutionally, there is nothing wrong in believing in j.c., but not
:Judaicaly. Don't mix the two!

Once again, you lose track of the conversation. This is about cultural
heritage.  On another level is is about religion, but you wouldn't 
understand that, considering your abysmal knowledge of that which
you so readily condemn through your ignorance.

:
: Apparently one thing
:>that doesn't seem to be understood by many posters here is that good
:>Christians are fairly well in touch with Judaism; they have to be to
:>really understand their faith.  I personally have no problem with other
:>Jews that do not share all of my beliefs.  I also do not tend to
:>tell them that they are not Jewish just because I disagree with them
:>on what Judaism is.  It is more than religion! Or have you forgotten
:>that?
:>
:
:You probably think that you showed to everybody just how free and open
:minded you are. To me all you showed is how uneducated and out of touch
:with Judaism you are. But again, this is not the only paragraph where it
:is seen.

To you maybe.  But, fortunately, you are not all of Judaism.  Just a small
minority of frightened, ignorant, close-minded O's.

:
:>It appears that many posters have either forgotten or deny that
:>Christianity is based on Judaism, was started by Jews, and has
:>more in common with Judaism than it has in opposition to Judaism.
:
:Oh, please. Now, you discredited yourself to the end! A religion that
:some people have agument about if it is an idol worship or not and that
:has so much that contradicts that the base believe of Judaism has more
:in common then different? You really could use a yeshiva! For like two
:years at least!

Knowledgable one please share with me your innate understanding of
these things.  Have you ever **REALLY** looked at what is similar
and what is dissimilar about the two religions.  Yes there are
many dissimilarities, but there are more similarities.  You wouldn't
know that with your avoidance of books, but it can be easily seen
if you take the time to read and understand.
:
:>
:>Just because some Christian philosophers (Thomas Aquinas, etc.)
:>suggest that it superceeds Judaism does not mean it is so.
:>Judaism, and an understanding of Judaism, is essential to the
:>Christian faith, as is evidenced by the 'official view' published
:>in Nostra Atae (the doctrine of the papacy).  Before you go 
:>condemning those that wish to understand and maintain the
:>cultural and religious underpinnings of Christianity, try to
:>look a bit further than your fears.  Realize that they have
:>just as much of a right to preserve their cultural and religious
:>backgrounds, especially those portions which are not in conflict
:>with any beliefs that you do not hold.
:
:You are really funny, you know that? Let me spell it out for you. xnians
:don't have any 'right' in Judaism.

I didn't say they had a right to Judaism.  What I said was they have a right
to preserve their cultural and religious heritage.  That heritage began with
Judaism.  Even an uneducated idiot knows that much about Xianity.

:Goyim do, xtians don't. xtians just
:happen to be goyim and Judaism can care less about what kind of right they
:have preserving their religion. Again, constitutionally, they do, but
:there is no such a thing as Judaism preserving xtian believes.

I am not saying there is.  Your response is emotional, and has caused
you to miss the point again.

:I respect people. If they happen to be xtians I respect them as people,
:not xtians. People that can hold any belief they want, but I don't have
:to accept them. 

Noone said you did.

:>
:>>Do not think it is just a joke here. It is too close to home. I
:>>personally know a girl who got cought on that kind of crap! Don't make
:>>the same mistake!
:>
:>She must not have been very sure of herself or her religion. Or she found
:>a convincing argument. I wonder which it was... And, unlike you, I intend
:>to investigate it, and make my own decision, based on best evidence
:>insetad of fear, paranoia, and ignorance.
:
:In fact, when I asked her if she would talk to a Rabbi, she said yes and
:told me that she hopes that the Rabbi converts too. I asked her if she
:was sirious and she said yes, of course, Rabbi was as Jewish as she was
:and could understand the same thing she did. 
:
:>
:>>Another question is how to get rid of this walking disgrace to Judaism?
:>
:>And yet another question is how to get rid of prejudiced, short-sighted,
:>close-minded, brainwashed, and intollerant people such as you!  You are
:>the true disgrace to Judaism.  I'm glad I don't have to introduce you
:>to my non-Jewish friends as representative of Judaism and Jews.
:>
:
:If you get rid of peope like me, you will not ever know what Judaism is
:nor was. Well, you don't know that anyway...

I do know.  I just disagree with the way you wish to practice it-in
ignorance of what is around you.  How do you think people become learned?
It is not by hiding from anything that frightens them!

:
:Why don't you go study instead of writing to this newsgroup? Or do you
:consider it as a mission to get rid of people like me? You know, the
:ones that still do know something about Judaism...
:You probably think that you make me very angry. No, in fact, you make me
:very sad.

I don't want to make you angry.  I just believe differently than do you.
Fortunately, your beliefs don't make or break my day/life either.

Take it to e-mail, this is probably boring others on s.c.j.