HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Rick Jones <albert@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu>
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 19:39:26 GMT

	Rather than get into the bent sticks and sails arguement,
let me propose an arguement for the Torg in general.

	The axiom and world laws are an imprecise method of describing 
cosms.  Ferinstance, in the Living Land, long bows don't work yet
short bows do.  Now us, the supposedly impartial observers look
in the Rulebook and say, "Hmm, short bows but no longbows. Yup
Tech 7."  When, in 'reality' the cosm is the sum total of the 
axiom and world laws.  Lanala's Love of Life causes the tree to
decompose quickly once it's "dead".  On Core Earth, it'd take a 
long die for the whole tree to die, but in the LL, it'll die 
quickly and decompose even faster.  Therefore, the wood will 
decompose so that the long branch will be just as effective
as a short branch for making a bow.  

	Or, why does the glider fall like a rock, when the 
bird (or flying lizard) flies, when they use the same principles?
Well, Lanala likes flying things, so she gives them a boost, but
since she doesn't care about the glider, it falls.  It's just us,
who are accustomed to the laws of physics as we know them, who
try to explain the bird in the LL in terms of aerodynamics.  
(If the flying lizard leaves the LL, it will still fly, since the
wings now use air to lift them, rather than Lanala's love.  It's
just a happy coincidence that the wings will work in both cosms.
Some critters probably will not survive when disconnected from
the LL because they ignore too many CE laws (animal proportions, etc).

[If the happy coincidence bothers you, remember, you're talking 
about a game where creatures from a bunch of different dimensions
still all have humans that are 99% identical to CE humans, in 
everything from biology  to language.]

	IMHO, if you treat the Living Land as a created entity,
like Aysle, except that miracles instead of magic is the empowering
force, then it all makes sense (Torg sense).  We don't complain
about Aysle being a disc, with the sun bobbing up and down, because
"it's magic."  Well, the Living Land is magic too.

	The Living Land is just a case of Miracles doing science's
job for it, since Lanala never went to science class.

--
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
All syllogisms have three parts, therefore this is not a syllogism.
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Z_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (BRANDON COPE)
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 18:39:54 GMT


The two Axioms I have the hardest time with are Social and Technological. Magic
and Spiritual are the easiest to visualise in terms of why the wouldn't work --
the area is magic dead or magic poor, or there is little or no influence of a 
diety(ies) on the area. However, there has to be something preventing Social
and Tech from working if they are higher than the area's (or character's) own
levels. In areas where either the Spiritual or Magical Axioms are higher than
the Technological rating, it could be taken that whichever was higher was
blocking out the higher level of Technology (ie, magic and high-tech not
coexisting in that cosm, divine intervention in the operation of a TV...).

Unfortunately, this view doesn't do much good whenever the Tech Axiom is higher
than the Magical or Spiritual ones. It also doesn't do much good to explain why
a character could get into trouble with a Social Axiom.

A possible explanation is that the Darkness Device in each cosm has a 'passive'
detection mode -- every time something is done in that cosm that exceeds its
preset Axiom level is detected and then countered (well, not always...).
However, there is a problem with the Social Axiom -- if someone is not allowed
to think something without possible creating a contradiction, then it means
that the ability exists of the Darkness Device to read the minds of those
inside the cosm. But this also means that a Darkness Device could read a mind
to determine the persons's intentions. IMHO, this goes to far. My opinion on
this is that a character can think whatever they want without causing any
problems, but runs the risk of creating a contradiction if they try to
communicate these ideas to others. 

BTW, notice that there are no psionics in Torg? Wonder if that is because they
couldn't think of any non-bogus way to prevent them from operating in any cosm,
regardless of the Axioms?


Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re: Campaign variations
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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:47:24 GMT

Rick replies:
 
> > Maybe I should wait until after the Infiniverse Update comes out later this 
> > month, but it may also be a good idea to get a head start on the subject....
> 
> 	Nah.  If I read another axiom physics lecture, I'll be forced
> to do something Wicked.

You and me both!  (Oh oh, that'll use the Many-on-One table, increasing our 
chance to gain Corruption.... 8-)
 
> 	The Warrior of the Dark (aka Tora Tancred, daughter of Gareth
> Tancred, and his wife from House Daleron) is well on her way to becoming
> High Lord of Aysle.  She was able to plant a stelae in Germany, and

I did something similar, only it was the evil (twin) sister of a PCs wife
and they managed to stop her from getting the stelae planted.

> In my world, she's the first major villain who is learning to 
> use cross-cosm henchmen, since the strange mixtures in Storm 
> Knight parties are so effective.  [She also wants to stir-fry
> the testicles of a certain Gunslinger.]

The evil sister was working with Core Earth terrorists so she was on the 
right track....  There's a group of cross-cosm baddies forming in my game
to oppose the PCs, but they're being headed by a Nippon corporate exec that
one of the players campaigned as a Nemesis.  The only problem is that about
half of the PCs that have enemies in this group have been retired in favor
of new characters (Baddie: "Hah, I have you now!"  PC: "Who are you?")

Kansas Jim (jogle@nrao.edu)
Organization: Junior, Philosophy, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Date: Thu,  9 Apr 1992 10:49:14 -0400 
From: Andrew David Weiland <aw1s+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Psionics and Magic
	<rose.702762965@acf9>

rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose) writes,

>By the hypothesis that Social (living => living) and Magic (living =>
>unliving), there are restrictions on what is psionics and what is
magic.  >However this division would require a reworking of the game
mechanics >of both.

Don't push the analogy too far.  After all, technology
(living->unliving) is certainly able to affect living beings, since
technology includes surgery and, at high axiom levels, biotech.  The
idea of a spell system that doesn't affect the kindred is a little too
weird.

Psionics and Spells are alike in that they draw their power from the
user, and cause backlash (as opposed to machines and miracles).  The
difference is that the Social axiom (like the Tech axiom) is relatively
stable.  But the Magical (and Spiritual) axiom is subject to rapid
shifts.

One thing that seems odd is that two of the axioms are wholly mentally,
one is wholly and spiritual, and one is somewhere in between.  All of
the technology and magic skills are Mind- or Perception-based, and all
of the spiritual skills are Spirit- based.  But Social skills are half
mental (trick, test, psionics) and half based on the oddball stat
Charisma.
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Subject: Another Kanawa Product (for Internal Purchase only)
Summary: Yes givvers and crackers, it's another swanking toy
Keywords: kanawa
Organization: New York University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 15:24:10 GMT

  Hoy givvers and crackers, just got this IM from the RPD and I'm
sending it out to you care of interOffice.
==========================cut here===============================
  Research Products - Robotics

  YR model stealth attack drone

  Purpose:  pest population control

  Price:
    YR1A - 400.000 yen
    YR1B - 350.000 yen
    YR3  - 700.000 yen
 
  TOU:8
  STR:15
  DEX:9
    Dodge 12
    Flight 18 (like Running)
    Maneuver 15
    Melee weapons 13  or Missile weapons 13
    Stealth 11
  MIN:6
    Test (24)
  PER:6
    Find 8
    Trick (18)
  SPI:5
    Intimidate (5)
  CHA:3
    Taunt (40)
  Natural Tools: Armor +8 (Reinforced Kyoto Police RKD),
    either Silver Stiletto 17 or Bamboo Needler 15,
    ion jets, solar collectors, mouse brain
  Possibilities: Rare (80)
  Appearance:  A small sphere about 30 cm. in diameter with quadrapod
    jets and four equally placed light sensors (normal and infrared).
    The "front" contains a small panel covering digestor and weaponry.
  Goals:  The YR series robot with mouse brain controller and ion jet
    drive is intended as a fully autonomous seek and destroy drone.
    Each drone is preprogrammed with a type of prey and with a range
    of terrains.  Common to all drones is stealth and survival
    programming.  The drone operates by either lying in wait or by
    stalking its intended prey.  When the prey approaches within
    3 meters, the drone will attempt a vital blow, either by ramming
    (stilleto model YR1A) or by holding position, aiming and firing
    (bamboo dart model YR1B).  Once an attack is made, the drone will
    seek to avoid retalitory attacks and leave the area as quickly as
    possible.  If its target was not killed, then it will stalk that
    target for another attempt.
           The YR1B uses a bamboo dart which it can replenish by itself
    from surrounding materials.  The YR1A has a spring loaded silver
    stilleto which is retracted except when making an attack.  All drones
    will hunt small creatures to support the biological mouse brain
    (mecha-digester unit included) and contain small solar collector
    units.
           The YR model is intentionally low cost, so that replication
    replaces reliability.  We hope that you will choose the YR series
    for all of your pest control needs.

  NOTE 1:  The YR3 model comes with the silver stilleto and the ability
    to be programmed for an individual target.  This droid will
    self-destruct immediately after killing target.

  NOTE 2:  We expect to be comming out with YR2A and YR2B models
    within the year.  These models will be programmed with the species
    of target, but will act as bodyguards and security.  Some
    beta-test versions are available, contact this department if you
    are interested.
--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Rick Jones <albert@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu>
Subject: Cylent Scream Question
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 19:41:06 GMT

	Here's an easy one.  I'm about to run "Rebel Without A Soul"
(a good adventure, even if they do read too much Ghost Rider).  Where
the heck is Bornei?  Is it part of Borneo itself?  If so, where?
[Since the PCs are going to be staying for (ominous voice) quite some
time, I was wondering about the placement of everything.]

-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
GEEZ Mahn, I'm surrounded by amateurs!- Sebastian (the Little Mermaid)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Axioms
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 19:40:45 GMT

> 
> On Apr 16,  1:46am, Bronis Vidugiris wrote:
> > It's not clear that the earth orbiting the sun or vice-versa makes any
> > observable differences.  [Ramblings about General Relativity and the
> > non-preference of inertial frames deleted for brevity.]

> If you look at the original geocentric model of the solar system, it
> had the Sun and planets moving around the Earth in perfect circles. To
> an observer on the Earth, the planets would each move across the
> sphere of fixed stars at their own rates. This, however, had one
> _glaring_ flaw. At different times, a planet will stop its motion
> across the fixed stars, reverse its motion, then stop again before
> resuming its normal path. To explain this, the theory of epicycles
> was created

Yep - but the competing models at the time worked, it's just that they
were overly complex (as you more or less pointed out).  It was just the
simplicity of the new models that made them attractive.  It's the simplicity
of physical laws in an inertial frame that makes Newtonian mechanics
attractive, too - though it's later been superceeded.

Retrograde motion is probably a good example that one can't blame
*everything* on axiom shifts - and why Torg isn't the Real World.  It
was known or puzzled about for a long time.  If people (en mass) created all
of reality, nothing unexpected would ever happen.

Torg does work well for creating dramatic situations, and giving people
amazing powers to do strange things that violate the laws of nature
as we know them - this is very handy for a game, but we don't actually see
a lot of that happening here in the Real World.

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Johann A. Hibschman" <hibschmn@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: shapeshifters again...
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:30:44 GMT

	Heh. Heh. Heh.  Werewolves in Tharkhold are REAL fun.  My werewolf 
character has been wandering around that cosm, accumulating roll agains like
there was no tomorrow.  One nice detail is that I can survive those #$%@!!
ion gun explosions.

	However, there is one slight problem.  Pain weapons.  Yuk.  Anyway, to
the point.  Werewolves are indeed rather obnoxiously damage resistant, but
even they start having problems absorbing all of the damage flying around in
that cosm.  IMHO, the weapons and armor from Tharkhold and the Cyberpapacy
have been inflated so much that PCs are almost forced to use similar gear, no
matter what it does to their character conception, merely to stay alive.
This is silly, and the group that I've been playing with has been discussing
some sort of mutual disarmament pact.  I.e. throw those GodBeams out the
window.  How has anyone else dealt with this problem.

Once more straying wildly from the original topic of discussion,
Johann Hibschman
hibschmn@phoenix.princeton.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re:  trick shots
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 04:28:06 GMT

Kansas Jim (jogle@nrao.edu) scolds:
 ! Dave writes:
 ! 
 ! >i have developed a fast draw skill, which is NOT cosm specific
 ! >(so Nippon samurai can "whip this out" as well
 ! 
 ! Bad idea.  Allowing anyone the ability to gain the initiative just by
 ! buying a couple of skill adds is very overbalancing; making it available
 ! to everyone no matter their cosm is even worse.  
 ! 
 ! I was under the impression your 'fast draw' stuff was going to be part of
 ! gunslinging, not something seperate.  A skill that lets you alter the Drama
 ! Deck is going a bit far without something like a World Law behind it.

i personally think that having one character (maybe two) go first,
with the added multi action penalty (usually), a chance of failure
(diff 20 standard, 25-30 dramatic, failure means NO action)
is going to imbalance the action deck.
(haste cards already exsist, and this wont give two actions a round...)

my previous idea was to allow those with gunslinging skill
to spend a poss to get a haste card
(in the spirit of Star Wars' spend a die to haste)
but this was too restrictive, and i wanted ords to have a chance
(otherwise gunslingers were unbeatable in showdowns)

the expansion of the fast draw to other cosms was easy for me.
i feel that Nippon and Nile deserve it, the 'Papacy maybe.
of the other cosms only Aysle will bother, and i feel
that fast draw is not sufficient for a broad sword
(a katana is the largest item to be fast drawn)

though a Monitor with the skill might be a bitch...
(not that monitor isnt a bitch to begin with...)

dave "dont knock it til youve tried it" oakes
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: malloy@nprdc.navy.mil (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Organization: University of North Texas
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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 15:09:46 GMT

On Apr 14, 10:41am, Erick, a six foot hobbit wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 92 06:58:19 PDT malloy@NPRDC.NAVY.MIL(Sean Malloy) said:
> > I believe we went through this over Copernicus; does the universe
> > change because one man describes it differently?
> In the Torg universe, yes.  The axioms are reflections of what people
> believe are possible.  By applying a different description to an
> existing situation, a person can change the beliefs of others.  This
> results in the spending of possibilities to make that preception true.
> The universe changes to fit the belief.

The Solar System is going to change from geocentric to heliocentric
because a bunch of people on the Earth are no longer so egotistical as
to consider the Earth to be the absolute center of the universe.

Tell me another one, Unca' Erick!

-- 
random sig #115:
Sean Malloy                                  | Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
Navy Personnel Research & Development Center | Expeditionary Force
San Diego, CA 92152-6800                     |      1990-1951
malloy@nprdc.navy.mil                        | 
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Z_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (BRANDON COPE)
Subject: Re: shapeshifters again...
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Organization: University of North Texas
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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:18:36 GMT

Gaak...

I took the phrase 'cause a contradiction everywhere but Orrorish' the wrong
way. Sorry, when I read it, for some reason I thought 'instant disconnection',
which isn't true -- its just a one-case contradiction.

Sorry about that...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!  a generous and sadistic DM,  ! "Just a traveller, on an endless flight !
!	Brandon Cope		!  But no matter which way I turn, I      ! 
!-------------------------------!  	journey into the night;		  !
! a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu	!  Going round in circles, til the 	  !
! z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu	!	mountians fall,			  !
!-------------------------------!  To believe in so many truths,	  !
! "But ... but ..., it's NOT	!  Makes no sense at all,		  !
!  our fault!"			!  Makes no sense at all"	          !
!      Kei and/or Yuri		!	the Alan Parsons Project	  !
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: cdr@kpc.com (Carl Rigney)
Subject: Re:  How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 08:22:40 GMT

In article <gatemail1.0b97046195124@morticia> you write:
>KJ's explanation (whether it accords with the 'official' WEG line or not)
>has some holes in it: why should people belive in error-ridden
>glitch-filled technology?

Thanks for the laugh - what else is Silicon Valley about if not the
transformation of error-ridden glitch-filled technology into stable reality
through long hours and strong belief and lots of work?

Computers are MUCH faster and much more reliable than they were 10 years
ago or even 5.  Every year computers get about 60% faster.  A value of 1
on the Torg chart, by the way...

--
Carl Rigney
cdr@kpc.com
From: albert@chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Temple of Rek Stalek?
Date: 8 Apr 1992 14:35:39 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine

In article <rose.702699337@acf9> rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose) writes:
>  I've looked, and aside from a couple of short comments about this
>adventure involving a renegade priest with a new religion, nothing
>more was said.

	Ks. Jim posted a review of it, but since it's a Living Land
adventure, and for all the discussion about the LL that's gone on
recently, it's not a popular cosm at all.  

	I didn't even bother getting the durn thing, because I 
know my PC's wouldn't enjoy a lizard hunt.
-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
Thank you all for coming, I'll spend your money foolishly.-J.Buffett
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
Date: 7 Apr 92 14:00:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: acf9.rose.702655219
Organization: New York University

jogle@nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)) writes:

>In article 702615369@acf9, rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose) writes:

>>  Then again, I've always been confused between disconnection and
>>transformation anyway.  (If you disconnect, you are no longer able
>>to relate yourself to the unliving objects in the old way.  But where
>>does this leave the unliving object which caused the disconnection?
>>If it is still in the old axiom set, then there should be no effect upon
>>passive contradictions.)

>The item itself will remain at the 'old axiom' level unless it is transformed 
>to the new reality (takes time or a really bitchin' die roll by the GM).

>Disconnection affects how a person can use an item, not what happens to
>the item (that's transformation), which is what makes the armor rule
>a weird thing to think about; if two guys go into the Living Land and one
>is wearing kevlar armor and disconnects the armor is now not as effective
>as it used to be.  But if the still-connected guy takes the armor from his pal
>and puts it on (and doesn't disconnect) it works like normal so obviously
>there has been no actual transformation of the armor just yet (unless you 
>want to rule that it transforms back as well).

  So it really isn't the armor that protects me, but my belief that the
armor is effective that protects me?

  Makes internal sense, at least.  When the axiom drops from 22 to 13,
I just can't imagine that anything as flexible as cloth can protect me
from a physical blow, and so it doesn't.

  Likewise, an Edeinos gotak who takes Kevlar armor and puts it on
without knowing that it is armor should be unable to gain the advantage
of Kevlar, since that is not how he is connecting with the object.

  Disconnection is like the Everlaw of One saying to me: "Stop doing
that, you're upsetting the balance."

  However, by this argument, if I am dead-sticking an airplane down
and I disconnect, then I should fall like a rock, because I know that
I can't fly using no shelter.


--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg