From: Shawn_E_Switenky@engr.usask.ca (Shawn E Switenky)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: WOC Toronto: Amiga's Future
Date: 19 Dec 1992 16:06:52 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


dnavas@oracle.com (David C. Navas) writes:
> To csa.hardware to attempt to get clarification from some kind of person
> There are a LOT of questions here, and anyone that knows anything about what
> was said, or even simple things like chip design cycles are welcome to
> respond.

> In article <20068@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> Shawn_E_Switenky@engr.usask.ca 
> (Shawn E Switenky) writes:
> >[ Thanks for putting in the work, Shawn!     -Dan             ]
> Indeed.

Your welcome.


> And now, a few questions if you please.

> >pleasure of sitting next to him for the Saturday night seminar.  He is a

> Is it public what was covered in the Sat. night seminar -- I didn't see any
> specific mention of it?  

The seminar on Sat. night was meant for dealers and developers. I did not  have
to sign any non-disclosure agreements to be at the Sat. night seminar.  Also 
no one that I knew in the room was under a NDA about the information mentioned.


> If you compiled both seminars into these posts, nice job!  Of course, I like 
> my news -raw- rather than well-done :)

I'd send you the video tape if I could.  A few hunderd words are much easier
to send over the net.

Lou gave the same presentation both times, but the questions asked of him were 
different each time.  The information in my report represents the informations 
that I took down as notes from both seminars and Q&A sessions. 


> >Low End:
> >	- 57 MHz Pixel Clock
> 
> This isn't the gfx bus speed, just the pixel clock.  From what I gather here,
> the bus speed will be 14Mhz, correct?

I have no idea as I do not think he mentioned what the chip set's clock was 
running at. 

> 
> Anyway, that's a 17ns pixel -- which is what we need for 1024x768x60, right?
> Any mention of such a mode?

He only mentioned the 800x600 72Hz mode.  I think that 1024x768x60 falls in
line with his comment about higher resolutions being available at lower 
refresh rates.



> >	- 8x Memory Bandwidth Increase
> 
> This is relative to?  ECS?  AGA?

Although, my notes do not explicitly say, I believe this is relative to
the current AGA chipset, along with all the other increase references he 
made.  That was the imnpression I had from Lou's presentation.



> >	- 16 bit True Color mode ( although recent developments with the
> >	  completion of the first cycle of chipset design indicate that this
> >	  will actually be a 24 bit True Color Mode )
> 
> As Ty pointed out to me in email, this sounds rather the funny thing to say.
> I mean, they asked for a 16bit TC mode and it came back from the designers
> with an extra 8bits layed out or something?  ;)

I think this means that, withing the specifications of the project 
( ie # of transistors, time to develop, etc ) they can bring this extra
features.  Maybe the design they had chosen was easier to implement with 24 
bits.



> >	- FIFO serial ports
> 
> About time.  Will this include DMA as well (like, say, the IIfx?).

As far as I know, he did not say.



> >	- increased Chip Ram ( 8Mb )
> 
> Good idea ;)  How are they going to make this 100% backwards compatible
> though?  Are they ripping ZorroII space into Chip RAM?  Personally, I've
> always thought it a good idea for ZII memory-space to become fully
> devoted to CHIP (except maybe the IO space).

The details for that were worked out along time ago, and months ago I saw
a post from Dave Haynie about where the the increased chip memory goes.
Maybe he could restate this?



> All in all, pretty reasonable for, say, six months in the future.
> My guess is that it's going to be longer than that, in which case a DRAM
> backwards compatible chipset seems kinda silly.

He did say that the new systems were at least a year away.  



> ---
> 
> >High End:
> >	- 4 Chips ( 750k transistors each )
> 
> Each or total?  I seem to remember these being -totals- in the WOC Pasadena
> address?

I believe he said each.



> >	- 32/64 bit VRAM Chip Memory ( could be DRAM for mid range machines )
> 
> Pass on the DRAM please.  64bit VRAM seems like a minimum for work designed
> to be one year in the future.  128bit would have been better....
> [Hey, I can't afford an SGI, doesn't mean I don't want one :)]

There might be other people who are willing to take a performane cut
and still be able to afford a machine with these features.  The good thing
here is DRAM is an alternative for lower priced machines.



> >	- 1280 x 1024 24 bit color 72 Hz Refresh Rate
> 
> Okay, BIG quesiton here.  This is REALLY THE QUESTION I'm posting this
> whole message because of!
> 
> Is this really 1280x1024x24?  Or is it simply a note that says -- hey,
> we have a 24bit palette in our hi-res mode?  The former is impressive, the
> latter is marketing ;)

I believe that this means your former statement.



> >	- New 'On-Demand' DMA Architecture for Balanced DMA Usage
> 
> You're kidding, right?  This is for us "balanced" dweebs out there that
> keep longing for the days when our systems seemed "balanced".
> 
> What the devil does this really mean?

Balanced was a word that he used.  My impression was that it was a new DMA
management scheme that would reduce DMA contention problems.  



> >	- 12 to 20 x Memory Bandwidth Increase ( mostly from VRAM )
> 
> AGAIN!  Over ECS, over AGA?  

Again, I believe these references are compared to the AGA chip set.



> What I really want to know is -- what are the max. screen modes -- what
> resolutions, what "bitplane" depth?

What Lou had for a presentation was a slide show of Amiga pictures that
was projected on to a screen.  All these things are copied, to the best
of my abilities, right from the presentation slides.  The details you are
asking for were not mentioned.



> >	- Video Upgrade module ( You can add more chips for parallel processing
> >	 chip set i.e. multiple blitters, and Higher Resolution Display Modes )
> 
> Like I really am going to believe this?

Why not?  You are not a Commodore engineer, so you have no idea what they are
working on.  Neither do I, but at least I figure that it would not be in their
interest to tell us a lie.  If they are going to tell me things, I am going
to listen.

> >	- Hardware Graphics Decompression Modes
> 
> GDM == HAM/DYUV/MPEG?  This is a great way to market HAM, is that what they're
> doing or are we getting real-time JPEG or something like that....

He indicated that this was something new, if that helps.  What method however,
either he did not say or I did not hear.



> >	- 32 bit Processor Independent Processor Bus ( hinted at RISC by 
> >	  calling the bus 'RISC ready' )
> 
> It actually sounds like Lew is trying to raise market expectations for
> RISC in the public, forcing Cmdre's upper management to actually commit
> to such a product.  

Funny, to me it sounds like he is being realistic and preparing for the
future.  If they want more processing power, RISC sounds like a
likely choice.  He is saying this might be simply to get the Amiga community 
to think ahead to the day when we might not have to use 68k machines.  He is 
just keeping his options open.



>This is not unheard of, though it's a really crappy way to run a company.

I think that letting us know about the future is a very good way to run
the company.  While it does not tie Commodore's hands to releasing a specific 
product, it does let the people who buy and use Amigas that these computers 
have a future.  I fail to see anything crappy about this.

> At anyrate, I'm all for RISC, so tell me the dweeb I have to shoot to make
> this possible :)                                             ^^^^^

Maybe you should just sit down and take a deep breath instead.



> >- There are no plans for virtual memory.
> 
> Bad, very bad.  

I have the opposite oppinion.  VM sucks.  On other operating systems, when
things start swapping out, it is a serious performance problem that must
be fixed.  It might let some things run that did not run before, but the
real solution here is to install more RAM.



> >- Prime goal with the CDTV is to cost reduce it and then enhance it.
> 
> Got that upside down, methinks.

This is what he said, and I agree.  The CDTV should be price competitive with 
console game machines.  I do not think there is a home market ( or could be ) 
for a higher priced machine.



> >  Instead of being last to bring something out, Commodore is
> >  going to be first or second.
> 
> I'll be the judge of that...

Why not, you have judged everthing else.  Seriously, this is a noble objective
and one they are quite capable of carrying out.



> >- DSP technology will be available for the A4000 in summer.  DSP will feature
> >  the AT&T 32000 series DSP and a 68040 processor module for the A4000.  A
> 
> AT&T 32000?  AT&T3210?  AT&T32C?
> Never heard of the first, might it be ne of the last two?  :)

I guess I'm not DSP-ready, since I have no idea what AT&T has for a DSP 
processor line.  I guess I took that down wrong.



> >  The NewTek people are very difficult to 
> >  work with and are resistant to change.
> 
> Does this remind us of someone?  It's almost a sure sign that, in a battle
> between two foes, the accusations that come out of mouth A are more
> applicable to person A than person B....  :)
> Hence, I suppose, the phrase "takes one to know one."

[RANTING AND RAVING MODE: ON]
I think this is nothing we did not know before about NEWTEK.  NEWTEK, to me, 
does not seem to play by the rules.  For example, there are specs for the 
video slot connector that NEWTEK did not pay any attention to.  They just 
crammed everything into whatever space was available on a 2000.  That's why it 
will not fit nicely into any other machine than the 2000.  It seems that the 
software is a little bit frail since it always breaks when a new machine comes 
out.  All of these problems could have been avoided if they would just play by
the rules.  It is not like Commodore does not let you know what they are.

It is not that I have anything against the Video Toaster.  I like it, 
especially LightWave's lens snap. I also respect that it has brought the Amiga
into areas that were not possible before.  However, there is no reason for the
Toaster to be as frail as it is.  This style of product reminds me more of 
those game makers who bang right on the hardware or those hardware hacks which
require tuning.  I much perfer things I buy to be constructed using the more 
reliable proper methods.  Because of the kind of quality NEWTEK considers 
accepetable, I am more easily convinced that NEWTEK is more of a problem than 
Commodore is.

[RANTING AND RAVING MODE:OFF]

> >First design cycle....
> 
> Someone familiar with chip design cycles?  What does this mean?  How many
> cycles does one usually go through?  Does this mean they have a prototype
> on someone's desk, or just that the design got run on a simulator?

The way I understand design cycles is that they have actually produced 
prototypes of the new chips.  Now they find what works and what does not.
Next, they figure out how to make it work better for the next time that they 
produce some chips.  This process of making chips and then refining the
design is the cycle.  I have no ideal how many of these cycles it will take 
before they can be sold in a machine.


> >While he did metion that the exact CPU has not been decided,
> 
> If something as basic as a CPU hasn't been decided on, then I can only
> conclude that this is a pipe-dream.  An interesting one, to be sure, but
> one that hasn't been sold to the people that say "OK, go do it".

He never said that they had committed to a RISC Amiga.  What he did say was
that they were now designing with RISC in mind.  They are doing this so that
when the time comes to make the jump to RISC, they will have an easy time
of it.  This is long range planning.



> >a RISC Amiga will be able to run not only UNIX, but Windows NT.
> 
> Well, if ever I heard a reason for NTs demise :) :)

I think that this is an excellent way to bring the Amiga some percieved
legitimacy.  Many people declare the Amiga a toy since it does not run DOS
or some other 'mainstream' operating system.  Now, since it will run Windows
NT, those people will have to reconsider their first impressions.

I'm no big fan of Windows.  It certainly is not any improvement over AmigaDOS
or UNIX.  But if is sells more Amigas, and enables Commodore to bring out
bigger, faster, stronger computers that I can afford then I see Windows NT on 
the Amiga as a good thing.


> >I am very excited about the future of the Amiga.  The new features are
> >nice, but the best part is that, clearly, Commodore has a plan.  This plan
> 
> Bingo -- a plan is good.
> A plan is long overdue.
> A plan that says "we will do" instead of "we won't do/it's hard for us to do/
> it takes time for us to do" is, like, way OVERdue....

I completely agree.  For years Commodore has kept some pretty tight wraps on
the things that they do.  While they do have some valid reasons for this 
policy, I really do appreciate a VP from Commodore coming out and saying, 
"We are working to improve.  This is how we are doing it."  I think people 
spreading rumors of Commodore's death is far worse than having those people
talk of the new Amigas CBM is working on.



> Now, I'd like that same logic applied to the software.  Where VM and Mem.
> Prot. is concerned we're still in the "we won't do" phase.  It's going to
> be a long haul, sigh....

Don't hold your breath for those features.  Commodore has some good reasons to 
do what they are doing.  If holding off on virtual memory means that I can buy 
a more powerful Amiga sooner and for less money, then I'm all for not having 
VM.  I would not use VM anyways.



> David C. Navas					dnavas@oracle.com
> Working for, but not speaking on behalf of, Oracle Corp.

Shawn Switenky
Shawn_E_Switenky@engr.usask.ca