HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Wally.Walters@p0.f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Wally Walters)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: A question for ANC supporters (re: Bisho)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 21:46:00 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7101/20.0 - Unisa Editorial, Pretoria

 LJ> The Bisho march, in my mind, had nothing to do with the Ciskei at all.
 LJ> It was a cynical political manoevre, aimed at gaining political points

So what's new? Once a Politician, one leaves the "normal" realities of life
and dedicates oneself to the edification of "I".

God blefs the Czar
Wally

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Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,apc.reg.safrica,sanet.talk.politics
From: shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst)
Subject: Re: Campus Fascists
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 01:37:27 GMT

gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:
>when handled by Scott. Those SASCO people involved should be expelled,
>they don't belong at UCT. Notice they're the same heroes who were involved
>in last years activities. Any further trouble, eg burning barricades,
>assaults on students and lecturers, disruption of lectures, should be
>dealt with by the police. In terms of the National Peace Accord, to which
>the ANC and the Mason-Jones's are signatories, and in terms of common
>law, the police have an OBLIGATION to intervene.
>If the fops in UCT admin (and the other 'liberal' universities
>in South Africa) had done that years ago we wouldn't have this problem.
>And we do have a problem. 

Expel the students? Well it depends on what you want to achieve.
If you want to satisfy your emotions and the bloodlust that
gets generated by an event like this, yes. If you want to further
the cause of freedom of speech (which I hope is the objective)
then it depends.

Your argument that if 'liberal' administrations has taken a 
_firm_ stand, then _things would be better_ is speculative.
It's what some admins on the black campuses did and it didn't
help there. It's the philosophy that the government used for
years and it didn't help there. Maybe it would have worked at UCT
and Wits, maybe (but I don't see it).

I wouldn't want to hold the Wits admin up as a shiny example of
what to follow but I think that their tactics weren't bad. After
two of the really upsetting incidens at Wits -- the Conor Cruise
O'Brien incident, and the shouting down of Zach de Beer in the 
1989 election campaign -- disciplinary action was taken. But,
by treating the experience as a learning process (rather than
one to satisfy those who wanted the return of public hangings),
and by involving off-campus organisations and leaders respected
by the students concerned,
public apologies were gotten from those involved, as well as 
commitment from those involved not to repeat the incident.

This isn't a magic formula, and it's far from perfect.Nor do
I think it would work at UCT (or that it hasn't been tried 
at UCT).

But won't work is people without credibility like you (and me)
saying  "It doesn't matter that Inkatka sent out it's troops
to kill students at Unizul or that they ban SASCO on their
campuses". Of  course an event like this must be condemned
because if it continues we might as well throw away universities.
I think that the way to deal with it is part of a debate about
universities and their futures. Part of that debate must be
to engage politicians and political leaders who the constituency
involved might support. Part of that debate might include public
hangings to sattisy peoples' emotions (but I hope not).

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
Subject: Re: A question for ANC supporters (re: Bisho)
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:04:53 GMT

In <ccdw.716480939@kudu> ccdw@kudu.ru.ac.za (Dave Wilson) writes:

>I do not believe anyone who now claims that they "knew" the kind of
>situation that took place would occur before it happened, ie. that
>soldiers would, without warning, deliberately murder some marchers.

======================================================================
From "The Eastern Province Herald", Monday September 7, 1992, page 1

BISHO ON KNIFE EDGE [the lead story]

[taking up from the 4th paragraph]

National Peace Secretariat chairman Dr Antonie Gildenhuys said the march
could result in ''horrible bloodshed'', but hoped the secretariat would
be able to find a solution.

He met Ciskei Cabinet Ministers who were adamant that the marchers would
be stopped by force if they entered the homeland.

.........

ANC national executive member Raymond Suttner said the movement no
longer wanted only the symbolic removal of Brig Gqozo.

''Mr de Klerk should take Gqozo in a plane back to Kroonstad'', Mr
Suttner said, adding the organisation intended establishing an interim
administration in Bisho.

.........

======================================================================

The Herald is a not particularly prescient morning paper, and
presumably the material for the above report was gathered on Sunday,
well before the massacre took place.

>Many other ways could have been used to deal with the situation:
>tear-gas, warning shots, rubber bullets, etc.  None of these was used.

I don't dispute this.  But, from the above report, at least one fairly
well informed person wasn't expecting the Ciskei to use rubber bullets
to stop an expected (at the time) crowd of 100,000 marchers from
establishing an interim administration in Bisho.

>Instead of the sustained ANC bashing now taking place, there should be
>even more reason for this petty dictator to be removed from office
>forthwith.

This "sustained ANC bashing" consists of a few postings questioning the
motives of ANC leaders in carrying out their mass action campaign given
the near certainty of a violent bloodbath.  Nobody in their right minds
is claiming that Gqozo isn't a petty dictator - all that's in dispute
is the most effective way of removing him from office, or, even better,
making his office irrelevant.  Taking a suicidal gamble that doesn't
come off and getting your supporters killed isn't a particularly
effective way of achieving this.
-- 
  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: The tip of the weapons pyramid.
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 02:08:00 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7101/22.5 - Novell User Group, Pretoria RSA

On <07 Sep 1992 21:22> Wayne Humphries (5:7104/2) said to All :

 WH>Western technics was always esoteric and inaccessible
 WH>to the Barbarian.

Was they just? 



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Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics,apc.reg.safrica
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Subject: Re: Figures on Violence - Controversy Grows
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 01:00:39 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
: Perhaps we should look at the response of the parties accused by the
: SAIRR:  

[in which as expected the HRC etc deny everything and try to question
 the MOTIVES and INTEGRITY of the SAIRR]

What messrs Mark and Scott seem to have missed is that the SAIRR
present a detailed analysis of the DATA provided by the said 
organizations. They DEMONSTRATE that the methodology is shoddy,
that categories of violence go unreported, that rumour is taken
as fact, etc etc etc. All by analysing the data and checking it up.

The response from the HRC is of course to wonder whether the SAIRR
doesn't have some hidden agenda, state links, vendetta or something
more sinister left unnamed, without of course considering the ANALYSIS
provided. And there is a wealth of it. Jeffery alone has 50 pages of it,
while Safro and Wentzel have much much more, loaded with data.

Quite simply, the HRC/CASE/ICJ were/are guilty of poor research
and inaccurate, misleading reporting. Note that the SAIRR DIDN'T 
base their claims on links between the ANC and the HRC/CASE/ICJ.
This must be contrasted to Scott's silly reply that, as far as he's concerned,
the SAIRR are just a branch of Inkatha,
trying to smear rather than addressing factual argument from an organization
whose data is held in extremely high esteem by researchers world wide,
and whose argument is open to scrutiny. But then neither Scott nor Mark
have even bothered to read the stuff -or if they have they've chosen
to ignore its content and concentrate on the character of the authors instead.
 
: If you read the following interview with John Kane-Berman you will see 
: that he is as slippery, but more sophisticated that GAVAN:

The technique reveals itself again. Kane-Berman is "slippery" and
"sophisticated", ie. not to be trusted because of defective character.
No attempt to provide any argument. 

The Nats did this all the time. Whenever faced with a telling argument
they'd simply claim the arguer was a communist, and not to be trusted.
  
Gavan Tredoux
UCT
Xref: sparky soc.culture.african:4758 soc.culture.filipino:3296 soc.culture.taiwan:13295 soc.culture.hongkong:10716 soc.culture.indian:31059 soc.culture.vietnamese:13545 soc.culture.china:25481
From: vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mbanane)
Subject: UPI: ANC accused of ambushing Inkatha supporters; 13 killed
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:21:08 GMT



	JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (UPI) -- Politically motivated violence in
South Africa claimed 13 lives overnight, authorities said Monday.
	Meantime, African National Congress and government negotiators met to
prepare for face-to-face talks between ANC President Nelson Mandela and
President Frederik de Klerk aimed at ending the violence.
	In one early morning attack eight Inkatha Freedom Party supporters
were killed and five wounded on their way to work when gunmen opened
fire on them near Amanzimtoti, 343 miles southeast of Johannesburg.
	``Two or three people dressed in South African Defense Force uniforms
opened fire on a pickup truck carrying people to work,'' said Kim
Hodgson, a spokesman for IFP.
	``They then set the vehicle on fire, leaving the bodies inside,''
Hodgson said.
	He said many recent attacks in the area have been carried out by
people dressed in South African Defense Force uniforms but he contended
these gunmen were in fact African National Congress supporters.
	Five other people were killed in separate attacks in the same region
overnight.
	Police said three were killed when gunmen opened fire on them and
four more were wounded in the attack.
	In two other incidents a taxi driver was shot dead and the corpse was
found of a person who had been stabbed to death.
	South Africa's Human Rights Commission, an ANC-aligned monitoring
group, said Monday a total of 348 people died in politically motivated
violence during August of this year.
	After last week's massacre of 28 ANC supporters in the nominally
independent black homeland of Ciskei, the ANC agreed to meet with de
Klerk for talks on ways to curb violence in the country.
	South Africa's Constitutional Development Minister Roelf Meyer and
ANC Secretary-general Cyril Ramaphosa were to meet Monday to try to
arrange the summit on violence.
	The ANC withdrew June 23 from multi-party pro-democracy talks,
accusing the government of complicity in politically motivated killings.
From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:02 PDT
Subject: Re: POINTER:
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1471700117:cdp:1471700118:000:80
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Sep 12 20:02:00 1992


Accidentally didn't get the title on.  Sorry. Should be POINTER:
AP on Somalia.
From: wnljam01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics,apc.reg.safrica
Subject: Re: The ANC and the SACP
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:22:14 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <Btz5tq.GB5@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mpthirus) writes:
> shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst) writes:
> 
>>vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mpthirus) writes:
>>>mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>>>>country's composition.  The ANC... has more Jews than than the AWB and die
>>>
>>>Used to. Many Jews that in the old days supported the goals of the ANC
>>>are now very much opposed to the ANC, due to its tactics of fomenting
>>>violence.  Many of the Jewish community even rail at the mention of
>>>Nadine Gordimer, these days.
> 
>>(As in all communities) there are some very reactionary people in 
>>the Jewish community, but I'm still willing to bet there are more
>>Jews in the ANC than in the AWB. 
> 
> I don't know what you mean by reactionary. The people I am referring to are
> quite solid businessmen. Many, if not most, don't want to have anything to
> do with either the ANC or the AWB. 
> 
> I think that's the whole point: most South Africans don't want to be aligned
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: From Africa-L
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 00:23:00 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7101/22.5 - Novell User Group, Pretoria RSA

On <09 Sep 1992 21:01> Dorothy Morse said to All :

 DM>I'm beginning to think John Sneed is right about this.  
 DM>Encourage the
 DM>African "Willie Hortons" and then go running around breathless 
 DM>denouncing
 DM>them and makng Africa look like a continent full of Willie 
 DM>Hortons.

Who is John Sneed and what are Willie Hortons?



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Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mbanane)
Subject: UPI: Briatin to increase aid to Somalia
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:24:27 GMT


	LONDON (UPI) -- Britain will increase its aid to Somalia by $14
million, Overseas Development Minister Lynda Chalker announced Tuesday
after a visit to the Somali capital.
	Speaking from the British High Commission in Lusaka, Zambia, Chalker
said her trip to a village northwest of Mogadishu had convinced her of
the seriousness of the situation in the famine-stricken country.
	``There I held children in my arms who will not be alive at the end
of this week,'' Chalker said.
	Describing a feeding center in Mogadishu she had visited with a
European Community representative, Chalker said the children and adults
she saw were getting some help, but desperately needed more.
	``They are just skin and bone and hardly breathing, in very, very
intense heat with no covering,'' she said. ``So many of them have
trekked for miles and miles and miles before they could get help.''
From: sl0n5@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Racism in soc.culture.african
Date: 10 Sep 92 11:19:57 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

Why is there this racial hatred?  Men and women were created as just
that--men and women; not black, white, yellow, or brown.  There needs
to be one way of looking at people--on the inside.  What we have 
outside was a circumstance beyond our control; what we have inside
can be something very beautiful.

I don't understand the reasons behind the person (people) who are
posting the terrible words and ideas.  I won't place a value
judgement on them because that would take me to their level, but
it hurts me to see what is happening.

Denice Wroe
Utah State University
sl0n5@cc.usu.edu
From: detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu (David De Trolio)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: UPI: Ciskei troops kill fifteen as ANC marches on Ciskei capital
Date: 7 Sep 92 20:24:09 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mbanane) writes:


>	The latest phase of the campaign will concentrate on the homelands
>and is aimed at strengthening the ANC's influence in areas where black
>authorities favor the South African government, and normally suppress
>ANC activity.

If you favor anyone else beside the ANC, is it then grounds for your
authority and position to be threatened by the ANC?  This is fair?  This
is reform by the self-appointed future leaders of SA?

>	The ANC leadership believe Gqozo is the weakest link in the chain of
>black political figures who are, actually or potentially, the ruling
>National Party's allies in a democratic election.

Again, it is not possible for the Nats or anyone else to maintain allies
or supporters throughout SA?  It seems to slip people that in a general
election, the Nats could win.  Experience and ability is on their side.

>	The liberation movement envisages the overthrow of Gqozo as the
>beginning of a chain of events which will displace, or at least weaken,
>the government's key black allies and weaken the government's position
>at the negotiating table.

How does this weaken the SA govt's authority and position while black
on black violence continues to grow.

>	Minister of Law and Order Hernus Kriel and his police commissioner
>Gen. Johan van der Merwe stationed themselves Monday in King William's
>Town, the closest South African town to the Ciskei capital, to monitor
>the situation.

This should at least put to rest any questions about the concerns or
presence of senior members of Security Forces.

>	The ANC does not recognize the homelands as independent or separate
>from the rest of South Africa and plans for their reincorporation into
>the country.

And what if the country does not wish to rejoin SA?  Does the ANC invade
the land, seize power, and appoint themselves in charge?  Does this also
also include the other homelands, and the two small nations within SA?


-- 
David De Trolio - (detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu)
_________________________________________________

"We're sailing on the wind of better days"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mbanane)
Subject: UPI: IMF to let Zimbabwe borrow as much as $459 million
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:18:27 GMT



	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- The International Monetary Fund said Monday it
will let Zimbabwe borrow as much as $459 million over the next three
years so the drought-stricken African nation can carry out crucial
economic reforms.
	The severe drought sweeping southern Africa is hurting Zimbabwe's
efforts to upgrade its economy, which will shrink an estimated 9 percent
this year, the IMF said.
	The agency said major crop production will decline by an estimated 50
percent to 75 percent, inflation will rise to 40 percent, and the trade
deficit will widen sharply -- all because of the dry conditions.
From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 07 Sep 92 10:52 PDT
Subject: Re: NCR:Using Peacenet to help Somalia
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1471700095:cdp:1471700107:000:1464
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Sep  7 10:52:00 1992


Hi jnr--I think I know what you mean by "shreds of credibility" :_).  Not
that I'm not credible as a person, but that people tend to believe things
more if they have some kind of media validation--if you have a name people
listen to you, etc.

But you know something I think may actually work the opposite way--I think
maybe just calls and letters and faxes from plain ordinary people may
have a strong effect that "name brand" people don't and that people
acting as a "named organization" don't have.  If the people in power
know who you are and who you are supposed to be taking instructions from,
they weigh that against the opposing "names" and "organizations."  But if\
they get lots of calls from Joe Doaks and Mary Smith in Ohio and
Indiana, they have to pay more attention to the "content" of what is
being said.

I don't have the strength or money to keep going at the rate I've been
going, but fortunately other people are moving strongly on the issue
(including your great group!).

What's concerning me now is how we make people understand that we
all benefit by helping others and by behaving responsibly about the 
environnment.  As your group and Bread for the World are now pointing
out (along with the Quakers and others) huge populations are at risk
throughout Africa.  And of course, lots of ordinary Americans are just
concerned about their own personal economic crises and are not going
to feel they have much left over for distant countries.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.african:4627 soc.culture.african.american:9254
From: rahman@ces.cwru.edu (Rahman A. Soomro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Rain Relief Fund
Date: 9 Sep 1992 19:15:02 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: easy.ces.cwru.edu


Dear friends,

Recent rains in Pakistan have caused devastating effects on the 
daily life of the Pakistani people. Scores of people have lost there
lives and more than a million have been homeless.

	I appeal to you to help our brothers and sisters in need
and donate some money to help them. Please send your contribution
(tax deductible) with your name and also I request you to collect 
donations from any source -- your colleagues at work, friends, business
associates, customers, persons from any nationalities and backgrouds
to help people in trouble. 

	We are tying you help suffering peoples, who are suffering
from disease and malnutrition.

Please mail your contributions to:

Pakistan Rain Relief Fund
4105 Providence drive
St. Charles, MO 63304
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: llk@kepler.unh.edu (Local Genius)
Subject: Re: Hijackers of Ethiopian airliner surrender in Rome
Organization: Department of Mathematics
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 22:56:34 GMT

In article <2066.2AA8FAE9@catpe.alt.za> Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes) writes:
>On <03 Sep 1992 20:45> Mpthirus said to All :
>
> M>country. Police said they were calm during the hijack and were 
> M>not
> M>violent.
> M>        ``The striking thing was the appalling poverty of the plane, the
> M>baggage and the plastic bags full of flour and lentils, the dirt and the
> M>precarious condition of the flight instruments,'' one official 
> M>said.
>
>That's very interesting. I thought one of the things that provided Ethiopia 
>with income was aircraft maintenance - a lot of neighbouring countries (and 
>even some from quite far away) used to send their aircraft to Ethiopia for 
>repairs. Does that mean that the aircraft maintenance industry in Ethiopia 
>has collapsed? Or is it just the result of the hijack?
>
>= Steve
>
>
>--  
>INTERNET: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
>via:  THE CATALYST BBS in Port Elizabeth, South Africa.
>       (catpe.alt.za)   +27-41-34-1122 HST or +27-41-34-2859, V32bis & HST.

Ethiopian Airlines was supposed to be one of the best - if not the best
in Africa the last time someone in the know talked about airline comparisons
on The Continent, so this is very, very interesting.

--

lk(with the man in the yellow hat)

** I take one day at a time but lately, several have attacked me all
   at once **