HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Insults (was: Re: standardizing NeXTSTEP)
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:03:30 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

>but hate the attitude that you're exhibiting.
I hate people that hate other peoples attitude :-)
-- 
NeXT Campus Consultant---Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey |my    %^)
John Kheit/monoChrome  | Opinions expressed represent me only!       |fried %-)
173 Westgate Drive     | Audix Voice Mail# (415) 366-0900 X5512      |brain %>)
Edison, NJ 08820-1163  | kheit@hangout.rutgers.edu,szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
From: zmonster@athena.mit.edu (Eric M Hermanson)
Subject: Standardize NeXT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:51:09 GMT

I was reading an article on comp.sys.mac.advocacy relating to flaws of the
Macintosh, and someone posted some really neat ideas.  I think the following
ideas would be great to implement on the NeXT:

Oh, remember these are NOT MY IDEAS!  Give credit where credit is due, the
author of the post I am about to reference is:

-goblec@physc1.byu.edu writes:
-Clark Goble
-theory.byu.edu


Here is an excerpt from his post:

9) STANDARD WORD-PROCESSING FILE

   Some type of standard word-processing file needs to be
   created.  It should be expandable like the PICT-II 
   format is for graphics, but be readable by any word-
   processing package.  Right now files tend to be in
   MS-WORD format or MacWrite format.  A standard would
   be very nice.  Standards for graphics spreadsheets and
   other such applications would also be nice.
   
10) DOCUMENT BASED COMPUTING

   This final item really couldn't be done under the MacOS.
   It may be done under some other OS.  Here the basic
   element of work is not the application, but rather the
   document.  You could have paper documents ala page-
   layout and word processing.  You could have cards,
   spreadsheets and lists.  There would be different
   tools to apply to the document.  A text tool would 
   have many word-processing functions.  A graph tool
   would do graphs.  A math tool could do equations,
   spreadsheet function and other such functions.  A paint
   tool would draw pictures.
   
   A movement towards this was brought by MS-Word (very
   poorly though)  Here you have one main application
   dealing with the basic structure and external tools
   controled via OLE to do graphing, painting, and equations.
   Having this expanded and put down on the OS layer or
   Finder layer would be a fantastic improvement in
   computing.


I think these are excellent ideas.  Any comments?

Eric
From: szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Insults (was: Re: standardizing NeXTSTEP)
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:07:19 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

>is nice not having him.  <grin>
Sorry about all of my posts of late!  But I really have a thing
against Microsoft.  This company is the reason I left the apple port
and I REALLY HATE the idea of them making stuff on the NeXT.  They
would just start mucking with the interface and OS and in general
screw up what is so nice about this machine.  I am SO happy that
Microsoft doesnt develop (I know I'm never going to hear the end of
this :-) on this platform.  I always used to use MacWrite II in the
old days anyhow.

later, John
-- 
NeXT Campus Consultant---Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey |my    %^)
John Kheit/monoChrome  | Opinions expressed represent me only!       |fried %-)
173 Westgate Drive     | Audix Voice Mail# (415) 366-0900 X5512      |brain %>)
Edison, NJ 08820-1163  | kheit@hangout.rutgers.edu,szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: michael@mercury (Michael)
Subject: McCaw Cullular to use 3000 NeXts
Organization: Bell Canada Operations Development
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:14:08 GMT

Computerworld, November 16:

McCaw Cellular Communications is going to replace its out-sourced 
mainframes with in-house Unix servers tied to 3000 machines running
NeXTSTEP.

(There *are* smart people in the Big Blue world, after all.)

--
 Michael R Weir.
From: isbell@cats.ucsc.edu (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Danish Computerwold dec 4, 1992 : "It's Showtime again!"
Date: 11 Dec 1992 22:36:59 GMT
Organization: Cubic Solutions - NeXT software development and consulting
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <1992Dec11.115615.26502@lth.se> d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) writes:
>  And if there's one bad thing to say about Steve Jobs, then the fact
>that he's a vegetarian.

I take offense at this :-)  It's a very admirable trait.  Probably keeps him
from being more aggressive :-)
-- 

Art Isbell                                                      Cubic Solutions
NeXT Registered Developer #745         NeXT software development and consulting
NeXTmail: isbell@cats.UCSC.EDU                             Voice: (408)335-1154
USmail: 95018-9442                                           Fax: (408)335-2515
From: vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Greg Vesper - RMS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:14:49 GMT
Reply-To: vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center

In article <1992Dec14.191522.2941@netcom.com> abell@netcom.com (Steven T.  
Abell) writes:
> matthews@ecfa.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael C. Matthews) writes:
> 
> > Steve Jobs is a marketer.  Bill Gates is an engineer.
> 
> No, Bill Gates is a hacker. Steve Jobs is an exception.
> 
> Steve abell@netcom.com

Hold on there folks, let's have a little reality check.  I am no fan of  
Microsoft or Bill Gates, but he is a FAR more successful busisnessman than  
Steve Jobs.  Gates is ruthlessly successful.  Gates is way better at marketing  
and promoting his product than Jobs is with NeXTSTEP.  Jobs is a technical  
visionary who has a superior product but who has a hard time adjusting to  
market demands and economic realities.

Knock Microsoft and their products all you like, I do, but understand that Bill  
Gates is an incredibly shrewd and successful CEO.  He's also currently the  
richest man in the United States, if that's any indication.

-Greg.
--
Gregory W. Vesper, SEWP BOWL, Goddard Space Flight Center
                   email: vesper@sewp.nasa.gov
                   Phone: 301-286-1478
                   FAX:   301-286-4627
From: alex@cs.umd.edu (Alex Blakemore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:54:54 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

In article <1992Dec15.181449.17484@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov> vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov writes:
> Hold on there folks, let's have a little reality check.  I am no fan of  
> Microsoft or Bill Gates, but he is a FAR more successful busisnessman than  
> Steve Jobs.  Gates is ruthlessly successful.  Gates is way better at marketing  
> and promoting his product than Jobs is with NeXTSTEP.  Jobs is a technical  
> visionary who has a superior product but who has a hard time adjusting to  
> market demands and economic realities.

all fairly true, but luck and being in the right place at the right time
had alot to do with it too.  Having IBM pick MS-DOS as on OS at the start
of the desktop wars put MS in a position where they could deliver slop and
they would make a fortune.  The great business sense involved concentrating
completely on locking in users.  Bill G made plenty of good decisions
and avoided major mistakes, and is surely a great businessman *but* just
the fact of huge sales to a captive and mainly naive market with IBM behind
him doesnt mean he's invincible.

starting Apple and fighting it out till the Mac succeeded in spite of the
PC terror are quite incredible feats as well - in my view, show more acumen
then riding the IBM wave with a mediocre product.

US steel and auto industries made alot of money and paid the execs
well over the last couple of decades, but it doesnt necessarily follow
that those execs were so keen.  Other factors could account for the
success as long as the execs avoided fatal errors - or at least fatal errors
with immediate effects.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------
Alex Blakemore alex@cs.umd.edu   NeXT mail accepted
From: jefferis@manas.engr.widener.edu (Raymond P Jefferis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NS'486 - Verrrry interesting ...
Date: 17 Dec 1992 19:02:31 GMT
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: engr.widener.edu

In article <SCOTT.92Dec17064956@nic.gac.edu>  writes:
 Anyhow, on the left, second shelf, midway across, there's a package
> called "NeXTSTEP" ... > 

I think you've been "had" ole buddy.
Ray
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Greg Vesper - RMS)
Subject: Re: Insults (was: Re: standardizing NeXTSTEP)
Reply-To: vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 19:44:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.173717.19342@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com  
(mark.d.wuest) writes:
> Saying that Microsoft's admittedly "wild" success implies anything about
> Bill Gates' genius, marketing *or* technical, is just plain false.
> 
> Microsoft's success is because of pure luck involving IBM's choice of
> hardware and software for a product they weren't sure would even catch
> on. IBM's stamp made the P.C. P.C. (Politically Correct - pun intended).
> 

Uh, hello?  There's a world of difference between getting/making a good  
break/start and successfully piloting a company beyond its first success.  Look  
at the early years of Apple.  When the Mac first came out, they sold a bunch,  
but a year later, Sculley and Jobs had almost shipwrecked the company.  That's  
when Jobs got the boot and started NeXT.  He's obviously getting better at  
handling the business end of things, but methinks there's plenty of room for  
improvement.

Gates has made consistently shrewd business decisions to get Microsoft where it  
is today.  (To the point where they could shun IBM).  Who had the first real  
Apps out for the Mac?   Microsoft.  Without Microsofts Apps, the Mac may have  
had the slow start that NeXT is experiencing.

I could care less about Bill Gates and Microsoft. (Never met the man, never use  
the software).  But don't let personality issues obscure the facts.  Microsoft  
is one of the most phenomenally successful companies in the world.  That  
doesn't happen by accident or by one good break.  You better believe Gates  
knows how to run a business.  And better than most.

--
Gregory W. Vesper, SEWP BOWL, Goddard Space Flight Center
      __|__        email: vesper@sewp.nasa.gov
        |          Phone: 301-286-1478
        |          FAX:   301-286-4627
From: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:   100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:39:18 GMT
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT

In article <1992Dec16.225920.23111@adobe.com> byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)  
writes:

> NeXT needs to have a minimum of 100,000 NeXTSTEP installations (on
> any processor) by the end of 1993 if it is going to survive in the
> long term.  Otherwise, it'll languish as an also-ran for the rest
> of it's life, and we'll all have to compete with the Amigoids as
> to who has the best paperweight.

Where do you folks get these numbers?  It seems like every poster in
this group who is pissed at NeXT for one reason or another comes up with
their own version of how NeXT's demise will occur if the company
doesn't exactly follow the poster's wise advice.  Of course, such
predictions have been occurring for years, with the same wild,
unsubstantiated numbers gleefully thrown to and fro.  NeXT still
seems to exist, regardless...

--
Nathan Janette		"I'm a NeXTstep man,
Dept MB&B, Yale Univ	 I'm a NeXTcube guy"
New Haven, CT
nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (NeXT)
From: isbell@cats.ucsc.edu (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Vegetarians (Was: Danish Computerwold dec 4, 1992 : "It's Showtime again!")
Date: 13 Dec 1992 21:30:22 GMT
Organization: Cubic Solutions - NeXT software development and consulting
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <1992Dec12.093751.2378@rna.indiv.nluug.nl> gerben@rna.indiv.nluug.nl writes:
>In article <1gb56bINNo5s@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> isbell@cats.ucsc.edu (Art Isbell)  
>writes:

>> In article <1992Dec11.115615.26502@lth.se> d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)  
>writes:
>> >  And if there's one bad thing to say about Steve Jobs, then the fact
>> >that he's a vegetarian.

>> I take offense at this :-)  It's a very admirable trait.  Probably keeps him
>> from being more aggressive :-)

>A. Hitler was a vegetarian. :-)

B. Stalin was an omnivore :-)
-- 

Art Isbell                                                      Cubic Solutions
NeXT Registered Developer #745         NeXT software development and consulting
NeXTmail: isbell@cats.UCSC.EDU                             Voice: (408)335-1154
USmail: 95018-9442                                           Fax: (408)335-2515
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: marcel@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Subject: Re: 100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Organization: Techn. University of Berlin, Germany
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 07:24:02 GMT

harit@kripalu.com writes:

>I agree that the VM performance needs lots of work.  Try opening a 30MB Improv  
>worksheet on a 20MB machine some time!  Objects have BAD locality. 
                                         ^^^^^^^
I disagree.  Spreadsheets tend to need to touch all of the memory to
do a recalculate, therefore you have a working set larger than RAM.  No
VM scheme in the world can save you there.  VM only works well if your
working set fits into real memory.  Not that NeXTs VM scheme couldn't
use some improvement.  (I have 40 megs and and application that uses
<= 13 megs, freed after processing is done, yet the swapfile grows
and grows and grows.)

Marcel
From: dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:  100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Distribution: world
Date: 13 Dec 92 11:56:44 PST
Organization: Not an Organization

    Intel's pentium is a joke.  Since NeXT cannot possibly compete with PC
    maker's 486 boxes (they've dropped below a $1000, see latest issue of
    computer shopper), and since NeXT would be wasting it's development
    money working on new hardware of its own (why bother when you can OEM
    faster hardware from others for less money?), NeXT should get out of
    the hardware business and start concentrating on its NeXTStep software.

    First, to get it running on relatively generic 486 boxes, and none of
    this crap about it working only on specific non-mainstream hardware or
    only with video standards that nobody heard of 8 months ago, etc... You
    guys having problems writing drivers, eh?  Keep on going the way you
    have and your 486 port is going to sink instead of splash, with about
    as much gratis marketting (magazine articles that drive the PC
    industry) as a cockroach gets in a printroom.

    Second, to cut a deal with (predominantly hardware) companies to port
    NeXTStep to other state of the art platforms and to OEM those
    platforms.	You can't hope to develop your own hardware faster then
    others have, so don't even try!

    As it stands, NeXT is trying to have its cake and eat it to, trying to
    do everything from the hardware to the software to the peripherals and
    getting badly beat on everything except the software.  Why should I
    bother buying a high end configuration from NeXT when I can buy a low
    end configuration and purchase the extra disk and memory myself for
    half the cost?  Why should I bother purchasing a CD drive from NeXT
    when their 'special' deal is barely competitive with any reasonable
    third party CD drive?  Why spend major kilobucks on color NeXTStation
    hardware when I can spend a quarter of the money on a 486 box with
    equivalent capabilities?  All *I'm* waiting for is NeXTStep to come out
    for the 486 and you can kiss the NeXT hardware goodbye.

    Work on the software, please... for example, the SCSI drivers. If
    Commodore can support arbitrary third party drives, chaining,
    synchronous SCSI negotiation, reselection (multiple operations in
    progress), etc... then you can too.

						-Matt

--

    Matthew Dillon		dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US
    1005 Apollo Way		uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon
    Incline Village, NV. 89451	ham: KC6LVW (no mail drop)
    USA 			Sandel-Avery Engineering (702)831-8000
From: matthews@ecfa.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael C. Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey(LONG) (Was: Mike Slade)
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:37:24 GMT
Reply-To: matthews@ial7.jsc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA/JSC Engineering Computation Facility

In article <Dec.14.12.32.44.1992.23089@gandalf.rutgers.edu> szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit) writes:
>>Steve Jobs is a marketer.
>>Bill Gates is an engineer.
>
>IMHO
>
>Steve Jobs is cool.
>Bill Gates is a jerk.  I dont care if he's into trains.

Agreed.  That's my point.

Disclaimer:  I'm an engineer.
--
Mike Matthews, ex-Tether Dude +------------->   matthews@ial7.jsc.nasa.gov
"Had the Shuttle on a String"  \_ Now accepting NeXTMail via KlugeNet(TM)!
Lockheed-ESC                  |  
Houston, TX                   |          *** WILL HACK FOR FOOD ***
From: rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com (Ron Pomeroy x(Coop))
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey
Date: 16 Dec 92 16:39:55 GMT
Reply-To: rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

>>Investors look for RETURN on investment, not "how long has it been since XXX  
>>came out with a product that's revolutionary?"

And RETURN is what they got!  We not only had one of the best years
in terms of gross sales, but also in terms of operating profit margins.
I've seen lots'o profit sharing checks - and they ain't small.  

We *will* develop our own technology in the X86 and other markets.
We do not plan to play catch-up-to-intel any more!
We will get our fair share of the comodity computing market $$$$$$ :-)

*note - there are more AMD RISC chips being used *today* than 
any other RISC chip (albeit most of them are in printers :-) ). The
29000 was doin' 21mips (as meaningless as that is) long before the '040
shipped.  And our 50mhz 29050 is pretty snappy too.

--
Ronald Pomeroy		[Objective-Cruntime: [Smalltalk runtime]];
Advanced Micro Devices	[self dream-on];
CAM Applications Group
rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com (NeXTmail preferred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Subject: Re:  100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Reply-To: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:03:03 GMT

Matthew Dillon writes

>     First, to get it running on relatively generic 486 boxes, and
>     none of this crap about it working only on specific non-mainstream
>     hardware or only with video standards that nobody heard of 8
>     months ago, etc...

The previous video standards of the PC are unuseable for several
reasons, all due to massive original design flaws.  Register-based
interfaces cannot support the raw video bandwidth required by a
GUI.  Color tables provide a severe problem for doing reasonably
quick alpha-channel computations, not to mention that color tables
are a severe problem for doing just about anything reasonable in
a multitasking GUI environment.

Even Microsoft is pushing for LocalBus framebuffer based video.
It's about time the PC video hardware made it into the 90's...

>     Second, to cut a deal with (predominantly hardware) companies
>     to port NeXTStep to other state of the art platforms and to
>     OEM those platforms.  You can't hope to develop your own hardware
>     faster then others have, so don't even try!

Developing hardware is more than just throwing chips on a board.
I/O bandwidth, memory bandwidth, DMA channels, good bus archtectures
- all relatively ignored by the PC makers (ISA? EISA? For serious
work?!?).  And what about a good multi-chip design?

>     Why spend major kilobucks on color NeXTStation hardware when
>     I can spend a quarter of the money on a 486 box with equivalent
>     capabilities?

You couldn't get anywhere near the ColorStation's capabilities for
1/4 the price.  Or even half.  You'd be hard pressed to match it
dollar for dollar, though it could be done if you love fiddling
with the gazillion primitive dip switches that are always present
on PC hardware to remind you how out of date their architectures
are.  NeXT has fallen behind the power curve, we all know that,
but PCs still don't in general have the capabilities to be
workstations without massive hardware retrofitting, or shelling
out the bucks in the first place.

All of the 486-based OSs coming out really want new hardware -
Solaris, NT, NeXTSTEP.  They all love memory bandwidth, video
bandwidth, and disk bandwidth.  PCs with those things built in are
right on par with the low end workstations for price.  NeXT has
some hardware catching up to do, but they aren't that far behind.
Certainly not enough behind to justify shutting that part of the
company down.

--
Scott Byer                             NeXTMail: byer@mv.us.adobe.com
Adobe Systems Incorporated               These are *my* opinions, and  
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900        do not necessarily reflect
Mountain View, CA 94039-7900             the opinions of my employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gcolello@biosphere.Stanford.EDU (Greg Colello)
Subject: Re:   100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 19:48:53 GMT

I'm not going to reply to anyone in particular. Just a couple of comments  
on the overall discussion:

1. It makes marketing sense for NS486 to work on all those low-end 486  
machines. But what makes anyone think Next didn't try that? I'm sure they  
did. I suspect the performance and device driver complexities were SO bad  
that they realized it was hopeless (at least to start with). Why else  
would they not produce software for such an obvious market?

2. We appear to have two major threads in advocacy. This thread is  
speculating on what hardware NS486 should run on. The other thread is  
speculating on when it will be released. It occurs to me that these two  
threads are not mutually exclusive. For example I know from talking to  
Compaq that a Compaq version is in prgress. They said that that version  
will not go to beta until January due to device driver problems. So for  
THAT hardware version, a production version will probably be available in  
July (beta + std. 6 mos). Could there be other hardware versions (like a  
Next version for example)? Might these other hardware versions be on  
different timetables? If so, then the rumor mill will be confused by these  
differing timetables. So lets talk specific platforms if possible. Not  
generic NS486 of which I suspect from hearing about device driver problems  
there's no such thing.

3. I wish both threads would confine themselves to actual vendor  
announcements (or inside info) and less speculation. I have other work to  
do, but I just can't help reading every one of these items, because I'm  
afraid I might miss something important. 8-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Colello
Carnegie Institution, Department of Plant Biology
Stanford University
gcolello@biosphere.stanford.edu (NeXT mail OK)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy