HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "Stimpson J. Cat" <davidy@seattleu.edu>
Subject: Re: Worst allied fighter in WW2
Organization: Seattle University
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:28:17 GMT


From "Stimpson J. Cat" <davidy@seattleu.edu>

In article <BzM9oH.Lz3@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> "Toby . Hughes" <thughes@lonestar.utsa.edu> writes:
>
>From "Toby . Hughes" <thughes@lonestar.utsa.edu>
>
>
>Well, this needs to be said.  It's real easy, in the light of Jugs and Mustangs
>and Hellcats and Corsairs to sit in judgement of the Brewster Buffalo and the
>P-40 and the F-4B and the Wildcat and the Devastator, but that is an exercise
>in hindsight.  Those airplanes were what we had when war came and they, and the
>men who flew, lived and died in them, acquitted themselves well in the overall
>scheme of things.  The Brits had the Spitfire, but they had not had to fight
>the fight of convincing stodgy old infantry commanders that airpower was the
>wave of the future.  To speak disparingingly of "the worst allied fighter of
>the war" is unfair to those who held the line with inferior equipment until
>the realities of twentieth century combat caught up with the movers and shakers
>who decided our military destiny in the most critical period of this nation's
>existence.


*********************** poem deleted ****************************************


	I've got one - the horrible General Motors P-75. GM had a
lot of surplus industrial capacity and decided to get into the fighter
design market, hiring Donovan Berlin, formerly designer at Curtiss and
designer of the P-40, to create the P-75. It was named P-75 to recall the
famous French "75" gun. This monstrosity used a coupled Allison engine
(similar to the DB610 coupled engine used in the infamous Heinkel He-177
heavy bomber.) It was a failure, and it was designed during the war. I 
don't have all the details with me right now but a great deal of money was
spent on this plane, which was terrible, and it shows just how much industrial
capacity the U.S. had, when it could waste the kind of resources and money
it did on the P-75 and still have so much left over to produce so many other
worthy warplanes. (I believe this thing had the nickname "Eagle". If I 
remembered that rightly, then it is lucky the plane was so forgettable, or
perhaps people would have hesitated to give the F-15 the same name as this
thing.)

[mod note -- a prototype P-75 still exists -- at the USAF Museum at
Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton Ohio.  From what I remember reading about
the airplane, it took bits and pieces of existing designs, welded them
together, and viola' -- a new airplane design.

However, the thread has been about airplanes that made it into production.
The P-75 never made it.

Steve]






					David L. Yee
				email to:davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Richard Pierson <fist@iscp.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Navy News Service - 23 Dec 92
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:31:34 GMT


From Richard Pierson <fist@iscp.bellcore.com>

In article <BzzCwp.or@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us
writes:
|> 
|> From mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us
|> 
|> In article <Bzs8v3.LHs@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>,
|> ttaylor@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil writes:
|> > ...
|> >      The following day, guided missile cruiser USS Normandy (CG
|> 60), 
|> > training frigate USS Bowen (FFT 1079) and guided missile frigate
|> USS 
|> > Clifton Sprague (FFG 16) provided dewatering teams to help local 
|> > residents and agencies with flooding.  They worked throughout the 
|> > weekend using P-250 and peri-jet eductors, pumping more than
|> 950,000 
|> 			  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> > gallons of water. 
|> 
|> What is a `peri-jet eductor' ?  (For that matter, what is a P-250? 
|> Some
|> kind of pump, I'd expect ...)
|> -- 
   
A P-250 is a pump normally carried on every navy ship.
The "250" designator is it's Gallons per minute rating.
It WILL power a 3" fire hose very well, the output normally
requires 2 people to hold it down
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I BUY my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Tony Valle <durin!huntsville.sparta.com!valle@uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Swiss military preparedness??
Organization: SPARTA, Inc.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:19:02 GMT


From Tony Valle <durin!huntsville.sparta.com!valle@uunet.UU.NET>

Re: Swiss military preparedness??

I think the driving issue of an armed militia versus a true modern
army is one of logistics. Putting aside the better training and 
equipment available to a modern army (which makes them more efficient),
and the considerable advantage in firepower (which makes them more
destructive), the real problem with maintaining a guerilla war
against a motivated occupying army is in supply.

As Dan Sorenson pointed out -- the invading army would control the
roads. And by extension, they also control the ports, the airports,
and the manufacturing facilities. And while it is true that going out
in small groups into the surrounding countryside might prove unhealthy
for the invaders, direct frontal assault on military encampments would
be suicidal for the militia. WIthout the ability to dislodge an 
occupation force from key production areas, it's only a matter of
time before shortages in ammunition, fuel, parts, and food render the 
militia militarily ineffective.

This is not to say that an armed militia cannot have an impact 
on the psychology of the war, but that begins to take us too
far afield from the original question. Untrained militia -- even
those who are heavily armed -- and generally not a match for
equivalent numbers of professional soldiers. Essentially the main
body of the Iraqi army during the Gulf War was militia (with the
exception of the Republican Guard) and even given poor leadership,
their combat effectiveness was very low.

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Anssi Oorni <oorni@hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: Worst Allied WW2 Fighters
Organization: Helsinki School of Economics, Finland
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:40:02 GMT


From Anssi Oorni <oorni@hkkk.fi>

In <Bzq304.4yu@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:


>From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

>In article <BzEz4v.Ey6@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Robert E George <regeorge@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes:

>>    Fiat G-50

>Hmmm...

>Wasn't it Robert Stanford Tuck who had the day off when his 
>squadron intercepted an Italian force consisting of slow bombers
>and Fiat biplanes? This was at the height of the Battle of Bri-
>tain. The italians were brave but the biplanes didn't do too well
>against Hurricanes.

I think that you are refering to the attack the Italians made against
Harwich on 11 November 1940. The fighters were not Fiat G-50s but
CR42s. RAF claimed "some thirteen" bombers and fighters shot down.
Since the Battle ended officially on 31 October this attack was not
part of it. The Italians actually made their first "attack" on 29
October but they turned back as soon as AA opened fire at them. Only
some bombs were scattered over Ramsgate.

Source:

Richard Hough and Denis Richards, The Battle of Britain
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
|  Anssi Oorni (oorni@hkkk.fi)                    |  I really know where my  |
|  Helsinki School of Economics, Computing Centre |    towel is... er was.   |
+-------------------------------------------------+--------------------------+


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ritley@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu ()
Subject: Hovercraft in Somalia?
Organization: Materials Research Lab
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:31:30 GMT


From ritley@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu ()


Apologies as this must seem like an ignorant question to some....

I noticed while watching CNN what seemed to be like giant
hovercraft ferrying troops and trucks from the ships to
shore.

Are these in fact hovercraft?  When did they first come into use?

[ mod note -- They sure are -- LCAC (Landing Craft Air Cushion).  Don't
know when they entered service

Steve ]

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: PAUL D CHAPIN <pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu>
Subject: Re: No Army Needed( was: Swiss military preparedness?)
Organization: Amherst College
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:35:02 GMT


From PAUL D CHAPIN <pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu>

Dan Sorenson (viking@iastate.edu) wrote:
: 	For a start, let us assume that 50% of the populace own guns,
: and can use them fairly effectively.  Variations are welcome, of course.
: This strikes me as a hopeless situation for a war.  As you drive down
: the street, some farmer with an old .30-30 shoots at you from the sewer.
: On the other hand, you do control the streets.
: 
A couple of problems.  Against a well armed and trained aggressor, the farmer
is not likely to last long.  How long is the civilian resistence likely to
last if participation=death.  I'm not a big believer is spontaneous self-
sacrifice.  Most people would do what the Somalis are doing - putting the
guns away for the duration.  If the occupation is sufficiently brutal, the
guns might come out again, but that's a long term problem.

A small legal point.  A civilian can not shoot a member of an invading
army.  To do so is legally murder and the invading army would be quite within
its rights to try and execute the civilian.  This actually makes sense.  If
we write the rules so the soldiers can't deliberately shoot the civilians, 
it's only reasonable that it works both ways.

Obviously, it doesn't usually work that way.  Civilians do get shot and do,
on occasion, shoot soldiers.  But if the civilians start shooting, the
military can't be accussed of war crimes if it takes both military and
legal action against them.  The danger for civilians is that the military
may react by going beyond their legal redress by taking actions such as
executing the entire family of the civilian who shoots.  Illegal, but likely
to slow up resistence recruitment.

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Patrick Eves <patrick.eves@canrem.com>
Subject: helos vs. tanks
Organization: NCR Corporation -- Law Department
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:28:07 GMT


From Patrick Eves <patrick.eves@canrem.com>



>First, it started out as a Bofors system.  Martin Marietta bought the rights

ES>I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. ADATS was developed by Oerlikon
ES>from Switzerland.

Hi, Erik.

Yup, I already got corrected on the Swedish/Swiss Bofor/Oerlikon thing.  It's
a problem when I'm writing most of this from a fogged recollection of a news
article read over my morning coffee.  

Anyway, the rest of the info still stands, and I still maintain that ADATS is
a boodoggle, at least in the context of the cash-strapped Canadian Armed Forces.
---
 ~ DeLuxe} 1.25 #12341 ~ CLOSE COVER BEFORE STRIKING
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: craiga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Craig R Albrechtson)
Subject: A few questions about Soviet Military decorations
Organization: Cyberdyne Systems
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:39:50 GMT


From craiga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Craig R Albrechtson)

In the recent months I have taken an interest in collecting 
ex soviet and warsaw pact military stuff.  Among those are soviet
military pins and medals and the like.  I only have a few now but 
what I am looking for is a book that explains what they all mean.
I have a few references but they are far from complete, most just
explain what the various ranks are and the services branch pins and 
patches are.  I am looking for a more complete reference on the subject.
does anyone know the title of such a book if one exists and where one 
can be aquired.

Second question,  Among the pins I have collected is a soviet air force
pilot wings.  The are supposed to belong to what is called a "sniper pilot"
and that is supposed to be a elite group of pilots.  Has any one heard of 
such a group within the soviet air force.

Maybe someone can tell me what the pilots wings are I will describe them 
in the best detail possible.

The wings are gold colored with a blue and gold sheild in the center.
Behind the shield are a pair of crossed swords with only the hilts and 
tips of the swords being visible from behind the shield.  At the top of
the shield is a red star.  The shield itself has a blue background with 
a gold border and some small decorations along the side.  In the center 
of the shield is a non descript gold jet plane facing up and to the left.
Below the plane is a small red band with two words in cryllic, one above
the other.  I can't put russian words using this font but each word 
is six letters long. 

The first word I will break it down and describe it as best as possible
It is six letters, the first letter looks like a cursive R, the next 
two letters are ET, the fourth letter looks like a 4.  the next letter
is a backwards N and the last letter is a K

the second word is spelled CHANUEP, except the N is backwards and the U is 
upside down.   

I know its probably impossible to determine what those words say but that
was the best I could do with this primitive editor I am Using.

Any help with these questions would be greatly appreciated.

-- 
************************************************************************
* Craig Reese Albrechtson (Slider) * University of Wisconsin Milwaukee *
* The usual meanless disclaimers apply * craiga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu       *
************************************************************************

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Aryk Nusbacher <nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: No Army Needed( was: Swiss military preparedness?)
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:25:47 GMT


From Aryk Nusbacher <nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca>

First, it is useless to expect any military value from personal
firearms if they are selected without regard to standardisation.
Without standard ammunition and parts, there is no military point to
having everybody armed and ready to turn out.

Second, the above point implies that standard issue firearms would be
kept at home, after the Swiss model.  Now, I would trust the Switzers
with their five-hundred-year tradition of maintaining combat weapons
at home, to give their firearms the attention they'd need.  However, I
would not trust some cussed, individualistic Anglo-Saxons of the sort
found in abundance in North America, to keep their firearms clean,
bright and slightly oiled.  Some would, but most would turn their gear
up for inspection with rust, wear, and filth.  And that would pretty
much moot the whole idea of having them.

Western civilisation developed the armoury for a reason.

Aryk Nusbacher



Newsgroups: sci.military
From: PAUL D CHAPIN <pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu>
Subject: WWII Carrier Question
Organization: Amherst College
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:24:51 GMT


From PAUL D CHAPIN <pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu>

I'd like to know if anybody has a source for the launch and sinking dates of
all the American and Japanese carriers used in WWII.  I don't need the dates
of carriers that where on hand on 12/7, but I need the numbers.  British
carriers would be nice, but not essential. I don't need anything more than
name, type, and dates.

I'm hoping that this is an easy question for those of you more into this
than I am.  Thanks for any assistence.

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: clarked@halcyon.com (Douglas Clarke)
Subject: Re: German WWII Carrier aka Graf Zeppelin
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:29:46 GMT


From clarked@halcyon.com (Douglas Clarke)

"david.r.wells" <drw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com> writes:


>From "david.r.wells" <drw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com>

>In article <Bz3v2s.2sp@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Paul Ayotte <payotte@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
>>
>>
>>    The Graf Zeppelin was later captured by the Soviets and used as 
>>.. was 
>>
>   It was my understanding that she hit a mine while being towed back to 
>the USSR. Can't cite any sources though. Someone else on the net claims
>that she sank due to shifting cargo. Whoever that is, can you cite a 
>source? I'd love to know for sure what the exact fate of this ship was.

>				David R. Wells
ZZDD
C
  The following is from an article I wrote for the RFE/RL Research
Report [Dougas L. Clarke, "The Soviet Navy's First Aircraft Carrier," 16
August 1991] "In April 1945, the Red Army "liberated" the unfinished
hull of the German aircraft carrier Graf Zepplin. It had been scuttled
near Stetten but the hull was refloated and towed to Seinemuende in
March 1946. It remained there for 18 months, and then was towed into the
Baltic by the Soviets. There are conflicting reports as to how this
voyage ended: the Graf Zepplin struck a mine and sank north of Danzig;
she was lost in heavy seas; she reached Leningrad, only to be broken up
for scrap." The refs are Clark G. Reynolds, "the Fas Carriers (first ed)
NY: McGraw-Hill, 1968), p 48f, and Wilhelm Hadeler, in "Comment and
Discussion," United States Naval Institute Proceedings, Dec 1967,
A
p.113.

D
A
A


C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
D
D
D
A
D
B
D
C
C
C
voyage ended: the Graf Zepplin struck a mine and sank

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: mvcy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Yamamoto? (was Re: Battleship Diplomacy)
Organization: Cornell University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:25:53 GMT


From mvcy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu

In article <Bzq2up.4s8@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>,
"david.r.wells" <drw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com> writes: 
> 
>    I'm fairly certain that the Shinano's flight deck was at least partially
> concrete. Dulin and Garzke have a remarkable cross-section plan of the 
> Shinano, so I can check that to confirm. Apparently, by late in the war,
> the Japanese were running short of steel, and therefore became quite 
> adept at substituting concrete. I'll check my sources to confirm this.

I remember concrete armoring to be there also from reading Japanese accounts.
I can't remember what the exact sources were though.  I also recall that the
Shinano was supposed to have Rocket AA battery (12? mounts of multiple 
rocket launchers).  I always wondered about that.  Could it have been at all
effective?  Does anyone know how that was supposed to work?  (i.e. guided,
unguided, proximity-fuse, shot-gun effect or what?)

Satoshi Amagai
> 

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: brian@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Brian Paquet)
Subject: Re: Lapland War?
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:28:26 GMT


From brian@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Brian Paquet)

Panu Wilska <wilska@cc.lut.fi> writes:


>From Panu Wilska <wilska@cc.lut.fi>

>098802@adpdp2.lanl.gov (098802) writes:

>>From 098802@adpdp2.lanl.gov (098802)


>Another reason why Stalin was willing to make peace with Finland was the fact
>that Finland had its last fortified line still untouched and attacking that
>line would have resulted Russians so heavy losses that they were willing to
>compromise. They knew that on their last line Finns would rather die than
>retreat so it would have taken perhaps months form red army to break
>that line.

Hmm intresting considering how the Stalin never did seem conserned with
heavy losses.. I would think that he would of wasted the troops to
get all of finland. Could there be something else?


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Patrick Eves <patrick.eves@CANREM.COM>
Subject: no cannister-was re:t
Organization: NCR Corporation -- Law Department
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:25:55 GMT


From Patrick Eves <patrick.eves@CANREM.COM>


JH>I have the impression that there was a Beehive round that was used for
JH>those occasions when the VC were attacking a position with 105s.  They
JH>seemed to be anti-personnel.  One instance I remember reading about was
JH>the night the first Medal of Honor was won by a Special Forces guy name of
JH>Donlon (?).  In the story I read about it, they mentioned delevating (?)
JH>the 105s and firing Beehives into the massed VC in the wire.  It sounded
JH>like a _big_ shotgun shell loaded with fletchettes.


I think the book you mean was "And Brave Men, Too".  The author was Timothy
Donlon, I think.  In the incident to which you refer, the MOH recipient was
just yer common grunt, I believe.  I may be wrong - I lost my copy of the book
during a move.  Stupid of me, it was a hell of a good read.  
---
 ~ DeLuxe} 1.25 #12341 ~ CLOSE COVER BEFORE STRIKING
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Dave Heisler <dheisler@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu>
Subject: Sonic Sniper Locater
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:24:44 GMT


From Dave Heisler <dheisler@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu>

I had this idea the other day, lets say you have an airport
or base that comes under sporadic sniper fire. How do you
locate the sniper?

I envisioned this: hundreds of self powered radio linked
microphones scattered about the ground. A control unit that
knows the position of all of them (relative to control unit
or maybe use gps) and can calculate direction of sound orgin
based on the timing of the received sound pulse as radioed by
the microphones. (thinking about it maybe you could get by with
2 or 3 sensor microphones)

1) Combine direction of orgin with an overhead satelite view.
2) Programmable microphone filter/amplifyer for detecting other
   things like tanks, airplanes, etc.

comments?

dave

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Gottfried Mayer-Kress <gmk@pegasos.ccsr.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Snipers and regional conflicts
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:28:08 GMT


From Gottfried Mayer-Kress <gmk@pegasos.ccsr.uiuc.edu>

In regional conflicts in a post cold war world (PCWW) snipers play an 
increasingly important role. 
I'd be interested in the current status of sniper/anti-sniper technology. 
Furthermore I'd be interested in contacts to develop/implement some of my 
own ideas in that direction.
Responses by e-mail/fax, please. 


--
Gottfried Mayer-Kress
Center for Complex Systems Research, Department of Physics
3025 Beckman Institute, 405 N Mathews, Urbana, Il 61801
gmk@pegasos.ccsr.uiuc.edu (NeXT-Mail)
gmk@goshawk.lanl.gov, gmk@santafe.edu 
(217)-244-5877 (voice/fax modem),x8371(fax), x1994 (msg)

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Patrick V Kauffold <cga66@ihlpl.att.com>
Subject: Re: Swiss military preparedness??
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:13:48 GMT


From Patrick V Kauffold <cga66@ihlpl.att.com>

>>The second important point, is that your report has probably not shown you
>>the very poor motivation and morale of swiss soldiers. Most young men are
>>not motivated at all by the army, Even worse, there is a lot of anger
>>against the army, mainly because of its fundamental lack of respect of 
>>people.
>>
>>What you have seen is basically the propaganda of the swiss army. In real
>>cases, Things would be much poorer than what you have seen.

Sounds like a leadership problem.  That's a pretty gratuitous remark from
someone who knows nothing first-hand about the Swiss Army, I know, but
here's just another OPINION.

A state of poor morale does not necessarily invalidate the concept of
universal military service and/or the Swiss model.  It could simply mean
that the Swiss Army needs to find a leadership style that is better
suited to the political and social realities.  What was effective in
1945 is probably not going to work too well today.

I recommend John Keegan's book _The Mask of Command_ for a very provocative
treatment of different styles of leadership.

My guess is that the Swiss, being as intelligent and well-mannered as
they are, will adapt their style and keep the model pretty much as it
is.

Newsgroups: sci.military