From: masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Not a Myth at All
Date: 27 Dec 92 19:25:10 GMT
Organization: Frederick Cancer Research and Development Center

In article <34242@twics.co.jp> dcroz@twics.co.jp writes:

>--Michiaki writes:
> 
>=}I'm glad to know that you, Mr. "anonymous" dcroz, finally showed guts to 
>=}respond to my posting.
> 
>     I'm not sure what you mean by "anonymous,"

   You know my name, but I don't know yours. That's it.    

> but I responded to your note
>the same day it showed up at my node.

   How is it related to your name?

>  Seeing that your posts have degenerated
>into mere invective,

   Have you ever thought of the possibility that your posting could be
invective and insulting to some people and provoke hostility?

   What you get is what you wanted, isn't it?

> I now regret having done so.

   What an appropriate phrase for a whiner!

>=}You stated as if many people didn't believe it, but this is the expression 
>=}of your ignorance.
> 
>     Oh, I know that there are many people who "believe it."  That doesn't make
>it true.

   Nor untrue.

>     There is also a large and growing number of people who have wised up. 

   What do you mean by "wised up"?

>Looks to me like "believing it" is the "expression of ignorance."

   Then, you are looking at only one side of our culture and society.

>=}Do you call "irezumi okotowari" (No tattooed person allowed) as "racism"?
> 
>     No, it's discrimination based on something other than race:  the
>presumption that people who have tatoos are members of bouryokudan and
>therefore frightening to the other customers.  

  Are you justifying "irezumi okotowari"?

>     What the denizens of Yokosuka practice is discrimination based on race.

   If discrimination based on irezumi is justifyable, what's wrong with the
discrimination based on race?

>     Unless one is bigoted enough to believe that all Navy personnel are the
>sort of drunken slobs described in other notes, the excuses the Yokosuka people
>make for barring them are no more valid than any of the racist stereotypes used
>to justify Jim Crow in the U.S.

   Then, people who believe that all the tattooed persons are vicious and
scary yakuza members are also bigoted, aren't they?
  
>=}Your superficial interpretation of Japanese culture
> 
>     Or rather my rejection of your superficial apologia.

  Which typically shows your narrow-mindedness.

>=}your one-sided view of Japanese mentality
> 
>     AKA my stubborn refusal to buy into your interpretation.

  And interpretation of many others'.

>=}your having an unreasonably hard time in Japan.
> 
>      I'm not having a worse time than any other ketou who learns to speak and
>read the language and finds out, from their own mouths and pens, what the
>Japanese are really saying and thinking.  I'm more vocal about it than most
>people, but if you imagine that these opinions aren't shared by large numbers
>of ketou, you're dreaming.

  Aaa, anata "ketou" dattan desuka. If you are not gaijin but "ketou," that's 
another story. Now, I'm not surprised to know that you are having a hard
time. The reason is on your side.

  There are quite a few gaijin who do not share your feeling.

>     There will always be a new crop of "tatemae ni damasarareta" ketou to
>carol the chrysanthemum club line and lend an ersatz legitimacy to
>Japanapologia, and the clueless, the Uncle Toms, and the venal Quislings are
>with us always.  But the core of long-term residents and students of Japan
>whose opinions resemble mine is larger than ever and growing rapidly.  Pretty
>sizeable "support group" here, really.

   Oh my gosh! Someone must be brainwashing those innocent gaijin-san-tachi
telling them that all the Japanese are racists, that Japanese don't speak 
Japanese to gaijin because Japanese believe that they are of a superior race,
and that if a male Japanese doesn't speak Japanese to them, they should 
provoke a hostile conflict, preferrably a fist fight.

>     Japan has been crying for "understanding" (wakaru, with its overtones of
>"let me get away with this.").  Well, it's getting comprehension (rikai)
>instead, and you'll never be able to stuff the genie back in the bottle.

   And there are some "ketou" supremacists who claims that Japan should
transform herself until she learns how to kiss "ketou's" real end.

>=}Prove it.
> 
>     Sure, come on over to my house for a couple of days; we've got room.  I
>warn you, though, my (four) kids are pretty rowdy (except for the youngest,
>who's just noisy).  'Course, the two oldest will be at school on weekdays, and
>then there's piano and soroban lessons, and I'm not home that much myself. 
>Seems like there's always something: gakko no undou taikai to ka kaisha no
>kenshuu to ka kodomo no yobou seishuu to ka shigoto go no tsukiai to ka. . .

   So......, what does it prove?

>=}YOU are the one who ALWAYS assumes that "someone," in this case all the
>=}Japanese, do indeed have "a biased view based on racism," aren't you?
> 
>     I'm not *assuming* anything.  I'm formulating and testing hypotheses to
                                                                ^^^^^^^^^^
>explain a data set.

   Then, you are "hypothesizing." Probably, people in Yokosuka have
their hypotheses, too.

>  When I find one that both explains all the data and allows
>reliable prediction, it begins to look like there's a high level of probability
>that it is accurate.  I then start challenging people to poke holes in it.

   It is most likely that people in Yokosuka have gone through the same
process.

>     Your most substantial challenge to this hypothesis has been, "You're a
>jerk, nyaa, nyaa, nyaa."  Can't you do any better than that?

   If your posting sounds better than that of a "jerk", I'd be willing to.
If only you have a look at my communication with other people, you'll know
what I am capable of. 

>=}Your aim seems to be to convince people that not only Japanese in Japan but
>=}also all the Japanese on this planet are racists.
> 
>     Only the ones that were raised as racists by the racist Japanese culture. 
>I don't see this as connected at all with persons of Japanese ancestry who
>aren't force-fed this volksgeist from infancy.

    Does it mean I am off the hook? What about my parents? What about my
grandma, eh? What about my friends? Would you be able to specify who you
are talking about? And how many are they?

    Mind you, if you are going so far as to "formulate" and "test" your
"hypotheses," you'd better be "scientific." 

>=}Then, how valid is it to say, "I hate all the Japanese. I don't want to make
>=}a single friend out of Japanese. However, all the Japanese have to be
>=}friendly, supportive and hospitable to me"?
> 
>     I don't have time to waste on irrelevant hypotheticals.  Why don't you
>wait until someone says this (or even makes a statement that can by any
>dishonest stretch be distorted into something that resembles this) and then
>we'll talk about it?

    What's your feeling about Japanese?

    Do you have a Japanese friend?

    Do you think that Japanese are obliged to be friendly, supportive and
hospitbale to you? 

>=}Many netters who tried to correct it appear to have already given up. Or is
>=}it just because of the Holidays?
> 
>     I've responded to every related note that I've seen.

    At least, a couple of my postings, one of which was rather shoulder-patting
to cheer you up, were not responded although I don't know whether they made 
it at your site. If they didn't, you might want to consult your sys. admin.

>=}No. I said, "someone." "R.A." is your word. I wonder if you found your 
>=}postings have anything in common with R.A.'s?
> 
>     Ah.  Excuse me, I have made a mistake.  I thought I was discussing an
>issue with an adult, but I find myself on the street corner playing the dozens
>with a juvenile delinquent.  Not interested, sorry.

   If you want to talk with an adult (or even a juvenile), you might want to
throw away your infantile attitude.

>=}I didn't expect that whiner's guts would last long anyway.
> 
>    I've never objected to peppering an argument with a little invective (just
>for flavor), but I don't think I care to spend time on someone who is
>apparently unable to distinguish between reasoned argument and invective.

   Then do you care to spend time on someone who is _apparently_ unable to
distinguish between reasoned arguments and public barfing of personal
frustration?

>     The prospect of standing toe-to-toe with you slinging insults bores me
>senseless.

    Oh my, my! I cannot believe that these words came out of the same mouth 
that told us how to stand toe-to-toe with a Japanese who does not speak 
Japanese to gaijin and to insult the Japanese.

>  If it pleases you to interpret that as a lack of guts, fine.

   If you lack guts, I'd be pleased to make a correct interpretation.

--Michiaki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan