From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: Re: WHO OWNS WHO?...or is it whom?...or what?
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:58:42 GMT

I'm still getting no feedback on my follow-up posts.  Let me try this one
again.  Anybody who sees this is welcome to answer the questions their way;
don't wait for Ms. Birmingham to answer them.

Peter Nyikos

In <nyikos.713891006@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:

>In <92225.110850ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca (Linda Birmingham) writes:

>>In article <1992Aug11.151252.25274@menudo.uh.edu> MILLER, JIMMY A. says:
>>>
>>>In <1992Aug10.224355.22522@coopsol.com> gordons@coopsol.com writes:
>>>
>>>> Should a mindless fetus, for the sake of it's 'bodily autonomy', be able
>>>> to ruin a person's life, damaging them physically, mentally, and
>>>> financially?
>>>> Gordon
>>>
>>>  Just to be nit-picky, none of these awful things are certain or even
>>>likely, Gordon, as you well know.

>>Mr. Miller it would appear you know nothing about pregnancy.

>Just how much do you know, Ms. Birmingham?  I'm not asking how much
>pro-choice and pro-abortion [see Forgach's re-post of my
>distribution-messed earlier posts for the difference]
>propaganda you've soaked up.  Just the facts, Ma'am.

>>Every pregnancy will cause some physical damage.

>So does every vaccination.  The question is, do the benefits
>outweigh the damages?

>>You can not force a
>>fetus weighing 6lbs and up, through the vaginal opening
>>without causing tearing and subsequent scaring. 

>I know this is false as regards pregnancies other than the
>first.  Are you sure it is true of first pregnancies?
>Also, do you have any idea how much physical damage an 
>abortion of a first pregnancy causes the woman?

>> Then of course
>>there is physical damage caused by c-sections.  You are aware
>>that the US has the highest rate of surgical births in the
>>world, aren't you?

>I thought it was Brazil.  Where do you get your statistics?

>>Ninety percent of women will suffer post partnum depression
>>within the first 10 days of giving birth. 

>Again, where do you get your statistics?

>> Ten percent of
>>these will require hospitalization and/or medication.

>Same question.

>>The financial costs of pregnancy are well documented,
>>even in countries that have health care.  There is the
>>loss of wages due to time off, the additional costs of
>>medicine and nutritional supplements to name a few.
>>Statistics on single mothers show a higher percentage
>>living on welfare or at poverty levels when they left
>>school young to start families, than single mothers living
>>above poverty.

>You're getting to sound more and more like a pro-abortion,
>as opposed to a pro-choice person.  


>>Mr. Miller your repeated trivialization of the effects
>>of pregnancy and child birth in this newsgroup display
>>a contemptuous attitude toward women.  I don't care what
>>your views on abortion are, but your dismissal of the very
>>real physical and mental stresses that a woman undergoes
>>while carrying a fetus to term is either due to ignorance
>>or misogyny.  Both can be rectified.

>So far, I have not seen you address the very real physical
>and mental stresses that a woman undergoes before, during,
>and after having a fetus aborted.  Maybe you and "Jammer
>Jim" can work out a joint statement.