HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Subject: ADA-Law, accessibility & accommodation
Followup-To: alt.education.disabled,BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
Reply-To: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 16:06:39 GMT

Reposted From BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Fri Jan  1 16:27:55 1993
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1993 14:24:45 MST
From: dsfs_jpm@LEWIS.UMT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.

Jude,

Yep, you are quite correct.  The Americans with
Disabilities Act (ADA) Title II's program access and
Title III's readily achievable do demand accessible
products.  In other words, if a covered entity is going
to be ADA compliant, it must have accessible products
for usage by the entity's employee's, consumers, and
members of the public who have disabilities.  This
drives home the point you made earlier regarding those
who are covered by ADA placing economic or market
influence and pressure on non-covered entities.  For
example, it would be illegal for my school, the
University of Montana, to purchase a computer system
which would be impossible to make accessible, even when
there are vendors out there who sell inaccessible
systems.  If every ADA covered entity made itself
accessible, the guys who are selling inaccessible
products would soon go out of business.  Makes sense to
me.

Jim Marks, DSS Director, University of Montana
(406) 243-2243 (Voice/Text)
InterNet DSFS_JPM@LEWIS.UMT.EDU



-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Subject: Canada : No More Sheltered Workshops
Followup-To: alt.education.disabled,misc.handicap 
Reply-To: alt.education.disabled,misc.handicap
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 16:49:32 GMT

Reposted from can.general
Subject: no more sheltered workshops
Date: 30 Dec 92 15:31:35 GMT


--- Forwarded mail from Tom Gray <ci!panix.com!patth>

subject: No More Sheltered Work Shops
Date: 23 Dec 92 14:54:26 GMT
organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

The Ontario (NDP) government has announced that it intends to close
all sheltered work shops for the developmentally handicapped (the latest
euphemism for the group which was previously called the mentally
retarded). The government intend to close the work shops in favour
of "community" solutions.

So far the government's actions have been to delete five million from the
budget for work shops and provide two million for "community" services.
The government does not have or intends to provide a defintition of
a "community" service. Instead it expects the "community" to come up with
services which it will fund.

Rumour has it that the NDP government intends to implement the same policy
with the psychiatrically impaired although no such policy has been announced.

Essentially, the policy is to remove the government from services to these
groups and the institution of a new policy of politically correct rhetoric.



-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: frank@cwis.unomaha.edu
Subject: Visual aid on PC
Followup-To: alt.education.disabled,misc.handicap 
Reply-To: frank@cwis.unomaha.edu,alt.education.disabled
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 16:41:24 GMT

Reposted from misc.handicap:
Subject: Re: Visual aid on PC
Date: 30 Dec 92 15:26:29 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha

I just logged onto this newsgroup...
I am the University of Nebraska at Omaha computing coordinator for
our Disabled Student agency, and for the ADA.

We just purchased and installed a copy of LPDOS which magnified the DOS
screen from 5X to 60X, depending on the settings.
We are using it with SPSS/PC, a statistical package.  I am sure it will
run WordPerfect.  You can ask them...

Contact OPTELEC U.S. Inc
PO Box 729
6-A Lyberty Way
Westford MA 01886

frank
frank@cwis.unomaha.edu
--
Frank@unomaha.edu


-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: patth@panix.com (Patt Bromberger)
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
Subject: Talking Books, Electronic Text Books, etc.
Keywords: Study Aids
Date: 27 Dec 92 16:01:29 GMT
Followup-To: alt.education.disabled,misc.handicapped
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

Just wondering, for those who are attending classes, which textbooks
you are using, how do you get them translated into braille or
electronic text (scanner?) or do you use a human reader instead.

Is anyone using a closed circuit television set to magnify text in
regular text books?

Does anyone have any experience ordering textbooks from Recording For
The Blind in Princeton, New Jersey or any of their other offices?

Any information appreciated.

Thank you.

 


-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                            patth@panix.com
This quote borrowed from: Gary.Petraccaro@f12.n2610.z1.fidonet.org 
... "It matters not so much what you sing, but why..." J.S. Bach
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Subject: ADA-LAW Mailing/Discussion List
Followup-To: alt.education.disabled,blind-l@uafsysb.uark.edu
Reply-To: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 15:47:30 GMT

Reposted From BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 30 21:29:15 1992
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:30:14 EST
Reply-To: Computer Use by and for the Blind <BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
From: "Woodill, Gary" <FCTY7310@RYEVM.RYERSON.CA>
Subject:      ADA LIST!

I'm reposting this from PACS-L for the interest of list members. G.W.

There is a listserv list call ADA-LAW devoted to ...

* List: ADA-LAW@NDSUVM1   (ADA-LAW@VM1.NoDak.EDU)
*
* Description: The ADA-LAW list is for discussion of any aspect
* of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and other
* disability-related laws.

/Pete (pmw1@psuvm.psu.edu)
--
Peter M. Weiss                     | not affiliated with psuvm.psu.edu|psuvm
31 Shields Bldg -- Penn State Univ.| "Connectivity is more than a Connection"
University Park, PA USA 16802-1202 | E. Michael Staman, _The Circuit_, Apr 92



-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Subject: ADA Requirements, etc.
Followup-To: alt.education.disabled,misc.handicap 
Reply-To: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 18:37:58 GMT

Reposted From BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 31 16:21:16 1992
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:18:41 MST
Reply-To: Computer Use by and for the Blind <BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
From: dsfs_jpm@LEWIS.UMT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.

You may be right in saying school programs have
products, but your point isn't covered by the
Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).  Schools
--- actually public schools --- are covered by
the ADA's Title II, Part A.  The general
requirement here is for program access.  This
term simply means that, when the program is
viewed in its entirety, the program must be
readily accessible to and usable by people with
disabilities.  It is my belief that there is no
requirement for product accessibility under the
ADA.  And I heartily agree with your assertion
that ADA is incomplete and in need of being
fixed.

By the way, the ADA requirement for private
schools would be Title III's readily achievable
barrier removal.  This means that if the
accommodation is cheap and easy to provide,
then the private school must get rid of the
barrier.  In some ways, this can be considered
somewhat stronger than program access because
all facilities would have to be accessible in
part.  Program access allows some parts of the
public school to be inaccessible.  However,
program access must be there in the public
school even when the barriers are not cheap and
easy to remove.


Jim Marks, DSS Director, University of Montana
(406) 243-2243 (Voice/TDD)
InterNet DSFS_JPM@LEWIS.UMT.EDU

-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Subject: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.
Followup-To: BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
Reply-To: Blind-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:57:33 GMT

Repost
From BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 30 13:25:19 1992
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 11:23:57 MST
Reply-To: Computer Use by and for the Blind <BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
From: dsfs_jpm@LEWIS.UMT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.

 The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) is a
very fact specific civil rights law.  I have looked
at it fairly closely, and I do not see where a
publisher is required to provide accessible
alternatives to print.  Can anyone speak with
references to what the ADA says about publishers
and alternatives to print?  Is print a public
accommodation under Title III?  I do not believe
ADA does require publishers to provide their
products in an accessible format.  Please prove me
wrong.

Next, Braille Bills are necessary.  Even if the ADA
does cover publishers, there's more to Braille
Bills than accessible alternatives to print.  State
after state have failed to educate properly
children who are blind.  An entire generation of
blind adults are functionally illiterate because of
the failure of schools systems to meet the needs
and abilities of blind students.  I believe it is a
good idea to have Braille Bills to force schools to
do what they should have been doing all along,
i.e., teach children to become literate even when
regular or large print formats are not accessible
to individual blind children.  Braille Bills will
demand that schools be prepared to teach braille,
computer usage, and other assistive technology
usage.  And, besides that, Braille Bills can drive
home the notion of multiple formats to information.
Wouldn't it be great to go to a book store and buy
a book in the format of your choice:  Print,
braille, cassette tape, E-Text, large print, etc.?
Braille Laws can help us get to where we want to
be.

Jim Marks, DSS Director, University of Montana
(406) 243-2243 (Voice/Text)
InterNet DSFS_JPM@LEWIS.UMT.EDU



-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Subject: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.
Followup-To: BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
Reply-To: BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:55:05 GMT

Reposted
From BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 30 12:42:45 1992
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:40:10 EST
Reply-To: Computer Use by and for the Blind <BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
From: "A. Kaniss" <dashiell@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL>
Subject:      Re: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.

the a.d.a. requires all businesses to accommodate handicaps
except in cases where it would be economically prohibitive to do so.
We don't need braille bills, what we do need are some court cases where
publisher's figures are proved inaccurate.  california and texas are the
two big textbook buyers in this country so what those states do should have
ultimate impact that affects all other smaller states as far as
print alternatives are concerned.  If those states refuse to allow any
publisher into the bidding process that doesn't provide print alternatives
the publishers won't be able to make enough money on the other states and
may go out of business.  That if it happens will have
proved to have been one of the most publicly helpful business failures in
this country's history possibly even topping the failure of murder incorporated.

jude <dashiell@nadc.nadc.navy.mil>




-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Subject: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.
Followup-To: BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
Reply-To: BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 04:03:23 GMT

Reposted
From BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 30 19:38:52 1992
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:10:46 MST
Reply-To: Computer Use by and for the Blind <BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
From: dsfs_jpm@LEWIS.UMT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.

Does the ADA require publishers to provide
accessible alternatives to print, e.g., cassette
tapes, braille, E-Text, large print, etc.?

I do not believe the ADA does have such a
requirement.  I hope I am wrong, but I do not think
so.  If someone does know for sure, please let us
know.

Essentially, many believe the ADA has a general
requirement to make American business accessible
when the provision of that access is not an undue
administrative or financial burden.  This is, I
think, a faulty assumption.  The only title which
might apply to publishers is Title III of the ADA.
This title deals with public accommodations and not
business in general.  Under ADA, businesses do not
have to produce product or services which are
accessible.  For example, car manufacturers do not
have to produce accessible cars.  But showrooms
would need to be accessible because showrooms are
public accommodations.  The actual product, the
car, is not addressed by the ADA.  Such products
are not public accommodations.  Therefore, I think
ADA does not require publishers to provide
accessible alternatives to print.

Furthermore, I am aware of no federal law which
does put such a requirement on publishers.  There
do exist some isolated cases of legislation which
do require businesses to make their products
accessible.  For example, now all televisions
produced which are larger than a certain size must
include a close captioning device.  This
requirement does not come from the ADA.  And there
are the state Braille Laws.  Unfortunately, these
laws are state and not federal laws.  This means
that some citizens have greater access to
alternatives to print than others.  Federal
coverage is vital.

As I mentioned earlier, the ADA is a fact specific
civil rights law.  I was very disappointed to come
to the conclusion I have regarding publishers.
Please, somebody, prove me wrong.  I really do want
the ADA to apply to the products of publishers.  I
just don't think it's so.


Jim Marks, DSS Director, University of Montana
(406) 243-2243 (Voice/Text)
InterNet DSFS_JPM@LEWIS.UMT.EDU



-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: lburns@ucsce.UCSC.EDU (Len Burns)
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
Subject: Re: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.
Date: 29 Dec 1992 12:09:39 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsce.ucsc.edu



In article <1992Dec28.043608.7534@panix.com> patth@panix.com (Patt Bromberger) writes:
>Yolanda, thanks for answering almost all of my questions.  I wonder
>what the general reaction would be to electronic text books - books
>you can actually read online or have a voice synthesizer read for
>your, as a blind student, or even a physically challenged student who
>can't turn pages very well, etc.
>
>Publishers would already have the books in electronic text form,
>wouldn't they - they have to be transmitted to the printer, after all,
>so why not make the e-text versions available for those who need them?
>
>Especially with the funding cut backs for libraries, it seems to me
>that computerized books and their availability might be another source
>for delivery of study material so necessary for students who need
>alternate means of accessing information.
>
>Any thoughts and opinions appreciated.
>
It does make a lot of sense. 
 An increasing number of books are becoming available
on disk primarily distributed by Recordings For The Blind. 
 So far most are technical manuals and computer related books. 
 I have tried to work
directly with a publisher or two and a software manufacturer.  There were two difficulties:
one is concerns about copyright infringement 
and the second is that if they are to provide such materials
it does need to be organized through one channel.  Otherwise the work becomes prohibitive.  Another difficulty is that
this technology is not yet available to a great number of students. 
 Of those to whom it is available, not
all make use of it. 
 It requires quite a bit of time to get to a point with a computer system where
using it for academic persuits is viable.  One of the most significant developments has
been the available of on-line library services. 
 If I were a student now my efficiency would be multiplied because
I could do the majority of my own research. 
 Some one would still have to read the material and pull the books, but
I would do most of the research down to the call numbers.  Enough! 
 I hope this is of some use.
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
From: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Subject: Accessibility of Programs and Products
Followup-To: alt.education.disabled,misc.handicap 
Reply-To: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 18:40:17 GMT

Reposted From BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Thu Dec 31 16:35:46 1992
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:32:17 EST
Reply-To: Computer Use by and for the Blind <BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
From: "A. Kaniss" <dashiell@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL>
Subject:      Re: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.

This begs the point that if products aren't accessible within a public or
private school there's no sense in making the program accessible either.
Under these circumstances when they exist, a program cannot fulfill its
mission for the users in question.
A programming equivalent to this situation would be if I were to write a
program for my employer that would only output to a braille
printer and only output in grade 2 braille.
Now, the program as a whole is accessible since the employer can collect
the braille hardcopy.  The employer cannot use the product though because
the employer doesn't know braille even at the grade 1 level.
Some people might argue well, you've got a braille user on your site so
you have accessability.  My employment at this site may not outlast the need
for the program and its output.  If the employer cannot hire another
braille user because of a hiring freeze the employer is out in the cold for that
entire system.  This is the logic that stands behind the
system as it exists in america today.  Let's hope it can and will
soon be improved.

jude <dashiell@nadc.nadc.navy.mil>



-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
From: lewis@vanilla.research.att.com (David Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
Subject: teaching statistics to blind students
Date: 31 Dec 92 02:51:52 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: /home/lewis/.organization


Hi -- My stepfather, Stan, is a sociology professor and has a blind
graduate student who is going to be taking his statistics course.
Since Stan relies heavily on graphs (of density functions and what
not) in teaching statistics, he's trying to figure out how to get
the same ideas across by other means for this student.  Anyone
out there have any relevant experience?

Thanks, Dave


--
David D. Lewis                    
AT&T Bell Laboratories            email: lewis@research.att.com
600 Mountain Ave.; Room 2C409     ph. 908-582-3976
Murray Hill, NJ  07974; USA       dept. fax. 908-582-7550
From: patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Patt Bromberger)
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled
Subject: Taling Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.
Date: 31 Dec 92 03:52:22 GMT
Reply-To: BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
Followup-To: BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility

Reposted
From BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU Wed Dec 30 12:17:20 1992
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 10:15:39 MST
Reply-To: Computer Use by and for the Blind <BLIND-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
From: dsfs_jpm@LEWIS.UMT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Talking Books, Electronic Textbooks, Etc.

Several states have passed Braille Bills.  Texas
and California have pretty strong Braille Laws.
The two major components of Braille Bills seem to
be a re-enforcement or initiation of braille
instruction for elementary and secondary children
and for a requirement of textbook publishers to
provide alternatives to print.  I am not sure, but
I believe 11 states have such laws, and many more
are considering Braille Bills right now.

One argument against the Braille Bills is that
smaller states do not have the clout to force
publishers to provide alternatives to print.  It is
said that smaller school districts do not have the
buying power to be effective consumers of print
alternatives.  I think this is hogwash because the
provision of print alternatives is a relatively
simple process.  Some publishers have complained
the cost is too great.  Apparently, many publishers
produce books in very poor nations where labor is
so inexpensive, it is cheaper to pay someone to
type in an entire book for printing than it is to
fool with E-Text.  One publisher has said it will
cost about $15,000 per E-Text book, and this makes
the provision of an alternative to print an undue
financial burden.

That leads me to a question.  Does the Americans
with Disabilities Act require publishers to provide
accessible formats?  If my understanding is
correct, the ADA does not require such
accommodations.  That's why I think we need Braille
Bills.  However, some consumers of print --- such
as schools --- are required to provide program
access under ADA and thus must insure accessible
formats.  Maybe a federal bill would make sense to
fill the void.  I am frustrated by the lack of
accessible information both as an individual
consumer and as a provider of post-secondary
disability services.  To my knowledge, none of the
Braille Bills to date even address the difficulties
of accessible information at the post-secondary
level.  One hint is to ask college book stores to
include a written request for accessible formats
with each textbook purchase.  It may help.

Jim Marks, DSS Director, University of Montana
(406) 243-2243 (Voice/Text)
InterNet DSFS_JPM@LEWIS.UMT.EDU



-- 
Patricia Ann Bromberger                      patth@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  
	           	        	or	patth@ccnysci.BITNET
"There's no place like home!"  -- Dorothy, "The Wizard of Oz"
Newsgroups: alt.education.disabled