HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: Long-term cave exploration - waste disposal?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:28:17 GMT

jag9931@rigel.tamu.edu (GLENNON, JOHN ALAN) writes:

Re: Lechuguilla Cave and human waste

: Apparently, it was 
: once a practice to leave human waste in Lechuguilla (urine in a bucket),
: with the thought that the urine would evaporate.  From what I have heard,
: the urine has not evaporated, and one of the base camps stinks to 
: "high heaven".

Early on, piss buckets were put in (by recommendation of the park) to
concentrate the urine in one area, and hopefully it would evaporate.  Of
course, in 96% humidity, it did not.  Yes, it stunk to high heaven, but
they were removed a long time ago.  I would not have wanted to be one of
the people who helped haul the piss out.

1)  It has been a practice from the start that all solid waste would go out
    with the cavers.

2)  Urine is to be carried out during all trips less than or equal to 24
    hours (typically up to 36 hours).  On more extended trips, urine is
    allowed in specific areas only, where there is some kind of "soil", not
    just a gypsym substrate.  If you are less than a certain distance from
    the entrance on your way out, then you need to carry that out, too.

:   The Park Service has closed Lechuguilla Cave temporarily to exploration 
: while such resource management issues are examined.  

From where did you get this (wholly incorrect) information?

Lech is "closed" due to a difference of opinion between cavers, the LCP
head, and the Park Service.  The difference of opinion had nothing to do
with "resource management issues".  It was about the park wanting all raw
survey data and computer data (not just line plots or finished maps), and
volunteer status of the project members.  The difference of opinion resulted
in the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the Park and the Lechuguilla
Cave Project being canceled.

Note that Lech isn't actually "closed" per se.  If you have a valid
scientific/exploration project in mind that requires the cave, you can
petition the Park Service to let you in.  A few trips have been made since
the MOU was cancelled.  The National Geographic filming being a prime
example.

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ummorea0@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Gene Moreau)
Subject: Goretex jackects
Originator: ummorea0@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:23:33 GMT

I've been looking for a new 'winter' shell.  I've been out hitting the
stores arround here(in Winnipeg that means all two of them :).  Some of
the stuff that I have seen is very nice.  Ultimatly I hope to be going to
a mountaineering course next winter and want this to be usefull for that. 
On the other hand most of the use that it will get between now and then
will be in winter camping and X-country skiing.  I've narrowed it down to
two, The North Face Mountain Jacket(NF) and Serria Designs(SD) version(can't
remeber the model at the moment).  I also looked at one of the Patagonia
one but didn't like the fit.  I really like the NF one, I can't seem
to justify the extra ~$200.  The differences are minor, the NF has larger
pit zips.  I do like having a bit more length with the SD. 

Now what I want is some input from people who have any experience with
either the NF or the SD, or any other jacket that may be comparable.  

E-mail is prefered as I don't have the time plow through the news groups,
but I will once in a while.

Thanx in advance.


-- 
Gene Moreau                 | "Morning comes far to early when it's cold
University of Mantitoba     |  outside and there is a maniac on the loose"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada  |    - unknown
ummorea0@cuu.umanitoba.ca
From: alpope@skids.Eng.Sun.COM (Alan L. Pope)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Warm clothing while hiking
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:27:20 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: alpope@skids.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: skids.eng.sun.com

In article 1274@ole.cdac.com, ssave@ole.cdac.com (The Devil Reincarnate) writes:
> I need some recommendations for clothing while hiking in cool/cold/chilly 
>weather.  I find that I warm up quite a bit soon after I start walking and
>it becomes uncomfortable to keep the same clothes on. On the other hand, the
>moment I stop for a break, within 10 min or so, I get chilled to the bone!


Based on your gecos field, I can see why you mmight be uncomfortably warm.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!  ;^)

sorry, the devil made me do it!
---
" Acendo o cigarro para adiar a viagem,
 Para adiar todas as viagens,
 Para adiar o universo inteiro.
 Volta amanha, realidade! "
--Alvaro de Campos "Ode Maritima"  Alan Pope <alan.pope@Sun.COM> 


From: edb@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Ed Beshore)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:30:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Lowe/North Face/Patagonia, etc...
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

In rec.backcountry, wallich@ncd.com (Ken Wallich) writes:


>Winter jackets.  If what you want is a warm down jacket to wear when
>doing some winter backpacking, it seems most vendors want you to buy a
>"system".  Usually a fleece undergarment, a down liner, and a Gore-Tex
>shell.  You can pay upwards of $1000 for this combination from North
>Face.  Geesh.

I have the North Face system consisting of the Gore-Tex mountain
parka, down jacket and fleece jacket.  The down jacket and fleece
jacket are not meant to be used at the same time, but both zip
into the shell.  Under no circumstances should you have to pay
$1000 for this combo.  Watching for sales should let you 
pick them up for somthing closer to $600, which is not bad
for North Face quality and a lifetime guarantee.  If you want to
buy pants, gloves, hats, etc. $1000 is a real possibility.

Clearly, additional layering with wool/polypro/silk is required,
the NF system being outer protection.

The mountain partka is a bit heavy, and I have at times
wondered if its lighter version the Mountain Light (60% less fat)
would have been a more versatile choice.  Construction is durable
in all models, but this being my second NF shell, I do regret
their decision to use a smaller zipper, which is hard to
grip with cold fingers.  The underarm vents have a bit too much
velcro and you have to struggle with them a bit too much.  The
mountain parka has a liner (thin, no insulation) and is quite
durable on the outside.  The pockets are placed high to help
access while a hip belt is on.

The fleece jacket is VERY NICE, with nylon patches on the shoulders
to resist abraision from pack straps.  Also a very handy large breast
pocket with a vertical zipper that is great for gloves and glasses.

The down jacket is rather ordinary, but very warm and well made with
a zipper that comes up to a turtleneck collar.  I spent several nights
observing at my new telescope (characterized by just standing around
and sticking your eye on a cold metal tube) in 20 degrees with just
the down jacket and was quite comfortable.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Edward Beshore                     
Hewlett Packard Company            Voice:       (303) 350-4826
700 71st Avenue                    FAX:         (303) 350-4675
Greeley Colorado, 80634            email: edb@hpgrla.gr.hp.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: liboff51@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Joyce Cummings)
Subject: hiking in Western Australia
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:45:47 GMT
From: brit@wagner.Physics.McGill.CA (Dave Britton)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Mitchell Caverns!
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:42:32 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <470001@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com> tonyz@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com  
(Tony Zugates) writes:
> Hey, here's a little-known out of the way adventure.....
<describtion of Mitchell Caverns deleted>

- I was there last Christmas. They are well worth seeing whether
you are a novice or an expert cave viewer. For the expert, they
contain several vary rare formations; for the novice they are
overwhelming.

- Note that you can not (or could not 12 months ago) wander
through on your own (the formations are too accessable and
would soon be destroyed just by people touching them).
There was just one daily tour at 1.30pm only, and it was 
limited to around 15-20 people. There is a small campsite
at the Caverns with a fantastic view out over the dessert.
However, if there promises to be any weather, head for one
of the other two which are accesible by dirt road: 
Hole-in-the-Wall (offers interresting rocks, some shelter,
but aparently the rocks can cause wicked local wind patterns); 
or Mid-hills (camp amoung the juniper(?) bushes, but take your
own firewood!).

- I bumped into a rattler in December!

Dave.
From: jbaker@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jim Baker)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:13:43 GMT
Subject: Yucatan Ideas Sought
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

I'm looking for suggestions on locations in the Yucatan penninsula for 
camping, snorking/scuba, Mayan ruin touring, and as little tourista exposure
as possible. My current thoughts are:
	- fly to Cancun
	- bus to Playa Del Carmen (try and find inexpensive lodging)
	- day bus trips to Tulum
	- day trips to Cozumel

Can anyone suggest other locations? Variations? General "heads-up"s?
Jim Baker
baker@fc.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: harms@eece.ksu.edu (Brian Harms)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Abbey bashing
Date: 16 Nov 1992 19:47:10 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: milton.eece.ksu.edu

The best explanation I've read of what it is that makes Abbey an
interesting/good writer is an essay by Wendell Berry (sp?).  I believe
it appeared in a collection of essays entitled "What Are People For?".
The title of the essay was something like "A Few Words in Defense of 
Edward Abbey."

Brian Harms
harms@eece.ksu.edu

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Subject: Re: GoreTex bags (was Re: Light & Warm Syn
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:04:43 GMT

stewe@cs.tu-berlin.de (Stephan Wenger) writes:
>>>On the topic of wet down sleeping bags, any advice on restoring
>>>the loft of one thats been completely soaked. 
>>
>>After washing a down bag, you are supposed to dry it in a large
>>front-loading dryer (low heat), with a few tennis balls thrown in
>>to break up the clumps of down.  So maybe it's time to wash it.
>>
>I cannot recommend this tennis ball trick. I washed my Marmoth Gopher
>with a special down soap and dryed it (following the instructions) with
>some tennis balls in a dryer. The bag wasn't usable after that (ok, it
>is usable in normal conditions, but the Gopher should be comfortable at

I have never heard of using tennis balls, it was always tennis
shoes.  Something with a little more mass.

--Chris
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Warm clothing while hiking
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:18:21 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1992Nov16.191823.1274@ole.cdac.com> ssave@ole.cdac.com (The Devil Reincarnate) writes:

 
> I need some recommendations for clothing while hiking in cool/cold/chilly 
>weather.  I find that I warm up quite a bit soon after I start walking and
>it becomes uncomfortable to keep the same clothes on. On the other hand, the
>moment I stop for a break, within 10 min or so, I get chilled to the bone!

Well, sorry to say there is no perfect system, especially in wet
weather.  However there are some things which help a lot.  Obviously
the "breathable, waterproof" fabrics are nice.  They are not
perfect, they don't breath as well as non-waterproof stuff, nor are
they as waterproof as sealed fabrics.  It's a compromise between
getting wet from the inside and getting wet from the outside.  Even
if you are not noticably warm you have a small amount of "insensible
perspiration."  This will get you and your clothing wet unless it
has a way to escape.  How this moisture effects you will depend on
how much insulation value your clothing looses when damp as well as
how much moisture is retained.  I like the following technique:

1.  Dress in layers (old but good advice) so you can add/remove
layers easily as temperature/wind/exercise level changes.

2.  Try to avoid overheating.  This means start out wearing "too
little" clothing so that you feel a bit cool.  *Never* dress too
warmly.  That nice down jacket may feel good but if it causes you to
sweat you will pay dearly for it later.

3.  When you start to warm up be careful to remove layers before you
start to sweat.

4.  Keep a warmer garment handy for rest stops.  Put it on as soon
as you start to cool off.  Be sure to remove it before starting to
hike (or ski etc.) again (see #2 above).

5.  Use a breathable, waterproof outer layer if it's raining or
snowing.  These are also nice if the wind is blowing.

6.  Try to ventilate clothing as appropriate.  Open zippers etc.
whenever this will not allow entrance of precipitation or cool you
off too much.  This will allow better escape of perspiration than
the fabric breathability alone can accomplish.  For this reason
garments with ventilation zippers are a great advantage.

7.  Obviously, try to keep precipitation from entering your
clothing.  If possible get out of the rain to change layers, take
advantage of natural protection etc.  You can't always do this
perfectly, but any water you keep out will be water you do not have
to evaporate with your body heat.
From: rh@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Roberto Hexsel)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: 20 Nov 92 11:17:19 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh

In article <10800@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, hall@ (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:
> In article <1992Nov19.165450.4985@brtph560.bnr.ca> jbl@ (JB) writes:
> >                             Do you agree that all countries,
> >whether developed or not, contribute to the usage and thus the
> >destruction of the eco-system?  If so, then this should be handled on a
> >global level, the US included.
> Well, yes.  Unfortunately we have no general agreement as to what
> form our global actions should take.  [...]
>  Of course where we can help out in undeveloped countries
> we should do so (eg. help them find a way to survive without cutting
> down forests as fast as we are cutting them here).

There is the well worn argument that McDonalds has large areas in the
Amazon for their hamburgers to graze...  There are several multinational
companies in the Amazon exploring/exploiting from minerals to farming.
These include Volkswagen, Brittish Steel...  It's a fairly long list.
I'm sure there are USA companies there too (Dana Mining ???).

Then, the Brazilian government, mainly out of the infinite wisdom of
the military regime (1964 till very recently), has several mining and
smelting facilities there as well (one of the foundries burns *trees*
because it is cheaper than coal/gas/oil).  All of this to pay our
foreign debt...  Oh yes, when Reagun decided to build up his army, the
interest rates went up and so did our debt.

My point is, people in the rich countries can do more than act locally.
For instance, one can buy shares in the companies that are spoiling the
Amazon and embarass the boards at the AGMs by standing up and asking
questions.  There are many other ways of helping...

Roberto Hexsel             rh@dcs.ed.ac.uk      vox ++44 (0)31 650 5168  
Dept of Computer Science                     "Speedups of less than 1 are
Univ of Edinburgh                              achieved with relative ease"
                                                              Mike Delves
From: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Trip Report: Guns n Chainsaws
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:21:06 GMT
Reply-To: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
Organization: Accuracy, Ltd.
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v0

For those who don't have sufficient archives to follow up the clues, the culprit
is almost certainly Doak Heyser.  If I'm right, thanks, Doak, for yet another
masterpiece.

Edward Reid  (8*}>
  eel:   ed@titipu.resun.com  or  nosc.mil!titipu.resun.com!ed
  snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: Joe.Slater@launchpad.unc.edu (Joe Slater)
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:47:50 GMT

  George Tucker Writes: 
>The Forest Service does provide emergency services and information,
>etc., so a small fee is justified. 
 
I ALREADY PAY A "SMALL" FEE!!! I PAY IT EVERY APRIL 15!!!
Sorry George, Don't mean to flame you personally, but this attitude,
IMHO, just endorses the currently policy. The writer who said to
write your congressmand hit the nail on the head. The timber companies
need to pay the fair market value of what they are logging.

Joe Slater
Joe.Slater@bbs.oit.unc.edu
My opinion would never be endorsed by anyone I know.
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Michael S. Ratliff)
Subject: Re: Guide info
Keywords: guide
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:56:16 GMT

In article <Nov17.160809.57935@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:

> Not much in the way of certification is required, but you may need a
> concessionaire's permit from the USFS.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> -Wayne Trzyna
>  trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU

How does one get a concessionaire's permit from the USFS?  I was told they are 
hard to get.  Do you get a permit for only one park at a time?  Can I get a
permit for more then park at a time?

-- 
********  Michael S. Ratliff -- mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu  *********
From: bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.
Date: 16 Nov 1992 20:31:16 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


At least Old Ed never wore Lycra!!Or Spandex!!
  I was reading The Fools Progress (hope the name is correct)
when I heard he went off the "mortal coil". 
  Here's to ya, Ed!
-- 
Ted....
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:9077 rec.climbing:4567 rec.skiing:7770 ca.earthquakes:1379 misc.emerg-services:4740
From: karim@ecst.csuchico.edu (KARIM SANJABI)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing,rec.skiing,ca.earthquakes,misc.emerg-services
Subject: Bachelor anyone?
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:34:42 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu



could somebody let me know the conditions at batchlor now?  I'm trying 
to decide to go there or to just ride rocks at Boreal over Thanksgiving.

thanks

KARIM
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Date: 18 Nov 1992 11:12:29 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <24066@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>,
tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker) writes:
>>backpacking and hiking use of the National Forests.  My first
>>response was negative.  However, to say that the money collected
>>would be used to replace logging revenues.  The implication was that
>>for every $1 collected from backpackers there would be $1 less in
>>timber sales.  If this is true I would be inclined to change my
>>view.
>>
>Chuckle.
>If that were the purpose they could simply double the timber fees,
>especially since they sell timber for much less than the damage caused
>by logging.  Sounds like a timber industry ploy to reduce their fees.
>
Actually, the group that came up with the proposal was neither FS or
industry.  I can't recall the name, but I believe it was
independent.  The problem with raiseing the logging fees is (if I
understand correctly) that it is a sort of auction with procedures
derived from statute.  If you don't like it, write your Senator and
or Congressperson.  [Editorial:  we often bitch at executive
agencies for carrying out policies over which they have no control.
 They are just doing what Congress requires them to do.  This
doesn't keep Congress from holding "investigations" on the bad
results.]
From: tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com (Tom Tilley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Plan to shoot wolves in Alaska
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:44:22 GMT
Reply-To: tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com
Distribution: na
Organization: LOCKHEED, Sunnyvale, CA

I saw an article this morning in the San Jose Mercury News about a plan to
shoot wolves in Alaska to reduce the wolf population in the hopes of
increasing the caribou and moose population.  It sounded so stupid that I
was wondering if anyone else knows more about this (maybe there is some
missing piece of info. which would make this make sense, but I tend to doubt
it).

According to the article, the Alaska Game Board has decided that if they
have airplanes with armed people fly over the area between Anchorage and
Fairbanks to shoot wolves (the article said that in some areas, the plan
would be to reduce the wolf population by as much as 80%), the moose and
caribou population would increase, and "mom and pop from Syracuse could
come up and see a unique wildlife experience" [oh, by the way, the hunting
was supposed to improve as well].  The quote from the official then
compared the experience to that of the Serengeti.  The article also said
that some bears may have to be killed as well.  Some of the killing would
be done by game officials in the aforementioned airplanes.  The rest may
be done by private individuals who would be allowed to spot the animals
from the air, land, and kill.

It seems to me that this is a recipe for instability in the population
of the animals whose numbers they seek to increase, in addition to the
obvious loss of the wolves and bears.  My understanding from the situation
in Isle Royale is that when the moose came over (before the wolves), their
population was _extremely_ unstable due to population explosion followed
by starvation, and that the wolves brought stability.

My conclusion, based upon the article, was that they were trying to create
the world's largest Disneyland.  Does anyone know any more about the plan?


Tom.
#--------------------------------------------------#
| Tom Tilley                                       |
| Internet : tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com   |
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry