From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rc
Subject: Re: R/C Flying: Part 1 of 2/rec.models.rc FAQ
Date: 3 Sep 92 11:33:47 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <1992Sep2.212133.29816@rtsg.mot.com>, svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda) writes:
> 
> You're still a student.
> 

If you say so.

> |I have a Flightstar 40. 

The Flightstar 40 is no more. It was involved in a mid-air collision with
another Flightstar 40. The collision removed the vertical stab, rudder,
elevator and half the horizontal stab. Subsequently, the plane plummeted
to the ground, shattering the fuse. Total loss.

It has been replaced with a (built) Eagle II.

> Well, the landing gear problem to which I was referring was the very weak
> main gears.  See, when the mains bend upward due to normal landing stresses,
> it causes the airplane to assume a nose-up attitude on the ground, which
> makes non-bounced landing very difficult.

I experienced this as well.

> How did your nosegear get bent back?

The field I fly out of is rather rough. Just taxiing around at high
speed appears to be enough to bend it. But, you know, there's those
not quite so gentle landings....

> |I don't think this is the problem. I really wasn't afraid to build a plane
> |from scratch. I just didn't want to learn to fly on such a plane. As it was,
> |it took me a solid week of evenings (about 20 hours) to build the Flightstar.
> |If I had invested 3 to 5 times more effort in builing a plane, I'd be 
> |afraid to fly it.
> 
> Why?  I risk five to six *hundred* hours every time I go flying.  

It was discouraging enough to smash the Flightstar even though I hadn't spent
much time building it. If I had attempted to fly a built-up plane at first,
and had damaged it, I could easily have gotten too discouraged to continue 
with the hobby.

> |That's the appeal of ARFs! In a few hours you can go out and learn to
> |fly. If you crash, you just buy and build another one. 
> 
> Right.  And not learn a thing.  And spend a LOT of money.

Wrong. You do learn some things. You can learn to fly. And the ARFs aren't
that much more expensive than a built plane, once you factor in common
things such as radios and engines. My setup was about $350. A built plane
would have saved me $50.

> |As someone who has just recently been there, the first few flights with
> |an ARF are nervous. With a kit-built plane, they must be terrifying.
> 
> Nonsense.  MOST of the experienced fliers you see built their first
> airplane.

True, but years back, there were fewer ARFs.

Dave, I can almost see a parallel here between RC flying and amatuer radio.
Lots of guys in ham radio are into experimenting, building and so on. Others
just like to talk on the air. To the experimentors, the operators are just
so much bothersome scum, not "real" hams. The operators don't care, they
just are using the radio as a source of recreation.

I'm exaggerating here to make a point. I think RC flying is a big enough
hobby for all different types of interests. Perhaps there are people who
are more interested in flying than building, just as there are people who
are more interested in building than flying -- and a few equally interested
in both.

> Why would they?  If they have all this time invested in the airplane, and
> the know-how to build it in the first place, the first thing that comes to
> their mind is "fix it".  Too many beginners with ARFs crash seriously (say,
> snap off a wing, crush the nose back to the wing, and break off a rudder),
> then, after placing the remains in the garbage dumper, make a decision about
> whether to continue in the hobby.  

Hmm. I've seen several repaired ARFs at my local field (mostly Flightstar
40s). Perhaps the beginners in your area have more disposable income and
are more apt to buy ARFs than to try a repair.

> Builders make a decision, but it more
> likely involves what kind of glue they will use to make repairs, as they
> just don't have the heart to throw all that work away.

Sometimes you have to. I've seen at least one crash (aside from my own,
which wasn't my fault) where there wasn't much left to repair. 

> Simply put, it's MUCH harder to "total" a homebuilt, because there is so
> much already emotionally invested.  And that emotional investment is an
> investment in the *hobby*, not in the airplane.

I guess I don't see it that way. Damage is damage. If it is repairable,
you repair it. If not, you scrap it. Repairable damage on an built plane
is repairable on an ARF. If there is a difference, it is minute. Your
experience may prove different. If there was a huge difference, then I'd agree
with your dismay over ARFs.

> |As for rebuilding ARFs, I've lost count of the number of Flightstars
> |I've seen that have obviously been recovered after repair. Whoever
> |says no one rebuilds ARFs is obviously wrong.
> 
> You just said (above), "If you crash, you just buy another one."  That is
> the mentality of the ARF, like it or not.  

When I said Crash, I mean a crunching, unrepairable type of crash. Not
merely a ding or other light damage.

> Just compare the number of ARFs
> you see in the trash can vs the number of homebuilts; even though the
> homebuilts slightly outnumber the ARFs at my field, I see almost nothing
> but ARFs in the trash can.

Perhaps that's because the ARFs are flown by inexperienced people who have
a greater tendency to crash, and the built planes by experienced fliers who
don't crash.

> Yes, if you consider a cartwheeled landing a "crash", then I guess you would
> think that many people "rebuild" Flightstars.  But I ask you--have you ever
> seen a Flightstar with, say, a scratch-built wing?  

Hobbico offers a wing kit for the Flightstar, so you can replace the wing if
you completely smash it. However, I've seen two Flightstars where substantial
wing damage has been repaired (obvious from the recovering). And one of
them where one entire half of the wing had been repaired.

> It is fairly common to
> scratch-build a part of a kit airplane after a crash (after all, you have
> the plans right there), and almost unheard of for ARFs.

I was looking at the Eagle II plans last night. (I bought a built plane to
get me back in the air right away. I'm contemplating a Sporty 40 for plane
number 3, which I would build) There's no drawings of the wing ribs. If
the wing were to be completely smashed, I've have trouble making replacement
parts. If there were less damage, I guess I could copy an in-tact rib.

> I'm talking *crashes*, here.
> That was a rough landing.  You have yet to experience your first crash.  

Not anymore! <grin>

> That's another one of my complaints about the Flightstar, though; that the
> firewall is built rather weakly.  A lot of people break it off on landing.  A
> trainer is *supposed* to be able to take that kind of abuse.

I agree. The construction of the firewall and fuse bottom is pretty poor.

> I suggest you start on your next airplane now, because your first serious 
> crash can come very suddenly, and put you out of flying for a while.

Now you tell me.<grin>

> |I've only been flying since January. 
> 
> You are progressing pretty well, it sounds like.  A trainer should last about 
> long enough for you to grow out of it.  About the time that the airplane starts
> getting oil-soaked, and the extra epoxy (from hard landings, and more serious
> repairs) starts to weigh the plane down, you should be getting kind of anxious
> to move up to a little more performance.

Thanks, Dave. The Eagle II I bought is still a trainer, but it isn't as 
oil-soaked, and was built mostly with CA. It is considerably lighter
than the old Flightstar. I finished the engine and servo installation last
night, and should be ready to go out and fly this weekend.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
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Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

Newsgroups: rec.models.rc