From: veal@utkvm1.utk.edu (David L. Veal)
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:09:53 GMT

In article <nkjfh10@fido.asd.sgi.com> dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:

>In article <1992Jul22.203709.27148@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>>dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
>>: 
>>: Actually, what I seem to notice is that almost every libertarian I know
>>: is a white heterosexual middle-to-upper class male.  Why is this, you may
>>: ask?  Because these people have never seen how terrible people can be
>>: to each other.  Since they have never experienced bias, they do not see it
>>: anywhere.
>>
>>You haven't met too many libertarians then.

>No, I have.  There is one who is female, the rest are heterosexual white
>males.  I know a lot of them.

"A lot?"

>Because I have communicated with many of them.

"many?"

>>: I find it hard to believe that an american business would pay women as much
>>: as men if they were not afraid of a lawsuit (even with the fear of a lawsuit,
>>: they pay them less).
>>
>>This is a cultural thing - it is changing. More and more businesses are 
>>starting to pay, based on merit and performance, not on the persons sex
>>or race or longevity with the company. There is a long way to go, but the
>>process is happening, and it is not due to government mandate - no matter
>>how much you would like to believe that it is. It is due to the changing
>>perceptions of how people relate in the job market.


>Do you believe that women would not be sexually harassed in the military
>if the government did not say "stop it"?

     The military is a special case.  But since Libertarians believe that 
the government, of all people, *is* restricted from discrimination, under 
a Libertarian philosophy, such harrassment, in the military would not be 
allowed.
 
     Elsewhere it would be assault.

>>
>>:                       I do not believe that all store-owners in the south
>>: would sell to afro-americans if they had any way to avoid it.  
>>
>>And, why should they have to? Why should I be required to sell my goods,
>>which I own until you pay me for them, to you if I do not wish to do so?
>>There are others that will sell to you, if I do not - maybe I do not like
>>"white monkeys" in my store. Now, if no one will sell to you, then you
>>have a reason for complaint.

>I am a minority.  There are not enough gay owned businesses in the united
>states that I can take my business to them.  I have been thrown out of bars
>in Detroit where the owner has said "we don't serve faggots here."  Not
>worth pressing charges, but you bet your ass that if people thought they
>could get away with it, they would.

     The law does no good if not used.  Perhaps that bar owner would be 
afraid to toss gays out if he got enough charges leveled at him.
 
     Nobody ever said life was easy... or fair.

>>: The amount of hate that I see for being a gay man, in my day to day life,
>>: convinces me that given a choice, many many people would be biased against
>>: me.
>>
>>Certainly. They have a right to be - whether this hatred is reasonable or not.
>>I think they are stupid to feel this way, but that is their choice. As long
>>as they do not threaten to harm you, then they are free to be as unreasonable
>>as they wish. You and I may not like it - but that is beside the point. What
>>gives either of us the right to tell others what they may or may not believe?

>Nothing.  As I said, your philosophy is wonderful from a theoretical point
>of view.  However, the reality of the situation is people will be as hateful
>as they can get away with.  Therefore, the people who are in the majority, and
>in power, are the ones who will control all the resources.

     Then *society* must see to it that being hateful is not rewarded.  You 
can't impose social changes with government power.  It simply doesn't work.

>>By the same token, you should have the right to be gay, and be as public
>>about it as you wish, without threat of injury. As long as you do not attempt
>>to force your sexual preferences on anyone else, then you should have the
>>right to be free to practice them in any way that you wish.

>There is a difference between a personal relation and a business relation.

     At what point does the relationship change?
 
     Is there anyone *you* wouldn't want to do business with?

>However, libertarians have a hard time seeing this.

     Libertarians are quite aware of the amount of sewage in the world.  
They just don't believe government *should* or is effective at doing 
anything about it.
 
     Discrimination occurs despite the laws.  You can't legislate ethics 
*or* morality.  Not only is it wrong, *but it just doesn't work!*
 
     You practice your sexuality despite the law.  You don't stop because 
the law says its illegal.  Similarly, others who do not see their actions 
are wrong will continue regardless of the law. 

>>: In an ideal world, libertarianism might work (just like communism might
>>: work).  However, given the current situation with haves and have-nots, 
>>: libertarianism would give white heterosexual males the freedom to return
>>: to the exploitive days of the past.
>>
>>Possibly. It definitely could not be put in all at once. That doesn't mean
>>that such would be impossible over a period of a couple of generations. 

>If I see any reduction in the amount of hatred and bigotry in the world,
>I would believe you.  Unfortunately, bigotry and hatred seem to be in
>vogue.

     Hatred and bigotry are just about eternal.  They aren't going to go 
away.  About all you can hope for is that their focus is shifted to more
"reasonable" subjects.

>FWA

===========================================================================
|David Veal  PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu  University of Tennessee             |  
|                                     Division of Continuing Education    |
| Statistics are any data which can be twisted to support your posititon  | 
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