HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb)
Subject: Re: Nation? Constitution? Where?
Organization: Institute for the Human Sciences
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 03:24:04 GMT

deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes

>Let me be more specific about my examples: Rome itself started out as a
>real, organic people who were very proud to say "Civis Romanus sum". By
>the time "Rome" had become completely abstract and universal, it was
>simply a system of government and a set of shared language(s),
>culture(s) and vague ideals. Eventually, every- body in the empire
>became a citizen - precisely at the moment when Roman citizenship had
>become a meaningless concept.

It would be interesting to know more about this.  It is my impression
that the complex made up of Roman government, language, culture and
ideals kept their magnetism for a long time.  Many barbarians very much
wanted to be part of the Roman world, for example.

China may be a similar case -- the magnetism of a similar cultural and
political complex lay behind the expansion of China from a
comparatively limited area in the valley of the Yellow River to its
present extent.  My understanding is that Chinese civilization and
culture and the Chinese empire have always had a very close connection
-- our word "China" comes from the Chin dynasty that united China in
the 3rd century B.C., and the Chinese term for a Chinese person is "man
of Han", after the Han dynasty, while in Canton the expression is "man
of Tang", after the later Tang dynasty that first made Canton part of
China.

>I certainly would not reject such universal ideals out of hand, but I
>would like to make the point that such universalisms tend to erode the
>foundation of particular loyalties on which the universal (or at least
>partially universal) loyalty is built.

It seems to me that we need both universalism and individualism, but
neither should be at the expense of the things in between.  How you do
that is the great problem.  Probably it is best if the universal
element in society remains ideal (like the concepts of "Greece" before
Alexander, "Christendom" in the Middle Ages, and "Europe" in early
modern times) while our practical life and loyalties remain with things
that are closer to us.  Maybe it crushes the human spirit for the
universal element in society to be something that has too much
practical reality.  (Again, it would be instructive to consider Rome and
China, the universal empires of their day.)

Remind me to bring all this stuff down to earth some day . . .
-- 
Jim Kalb (jk@panix.com)
"Alles Erworbne bedroht die Maschine, solange
sie sich erdreistet, im Geist, statt im Gehorchen, zu sein."  (Rilke)
Newsgroups: alt.revolution.counter
From: cla04@keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.revolution.counter
Subject: French Monarchism
Date: 22 Jan 93 13:01:51 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

Subscribers to this group will be pleased to hear that the commemoration
of the bicentenary of the judicial murder of Louis XVI in Paris
received a lot of coverage in the quality press here in England. 
Commentary in the Times and Telegraph was favourable (the Telegraph used
the story as its colour photo front page feature), less so in the
Guardian and particularly in the Independent which sports a republican
affectation (it was the only paper to carry a photo of the small
counter-demonstration instead of the much larger group of Monarchists
alongside its report.  Perhaps the French have something going for them
after all. 

Andy
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.revolution.counter
Subject: Re: Nation? Constitution? Where?
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:16:16 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <C17M3r.A22@panix.com>, by jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb):
> deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes (in a post that only reached my site
> just now even though it was sent over a week ago):
> 
>>An 'abstract nationality' is the negation of nationality. Consider the 
>>USSR. Or Rome.
> 
> It's interesting how much of a hold an abstract nationality can have on
> people, though.  "Civis Romanus sum" was a proud claim, and the idea of
> the Roman Empire remained compelling long after 476 A.D. 

I agree about the idea of Imperium which hangs around as something much
better than a mere kingdom for ages. As for 'civis Romanus sum', I
suspect that no one was too impressed  after 212 AD when Caracalla gave
the citizenship to virtually everyone in the Empire. Even before that
Roman citizens were stratifying out into honestiores and humiliores.


 And I read
> somewhere that even prisoners in Soviet labor camps found it very hard
> not to respond to appeals based on their still being "Soviet persons".


How about 'Yugoslav' as an abstract nationality that failed?

Andy

======================================================================

ANDY FEAR                    GOD BLESS LANCASHIRE

Dept. of Classics,           "Men have ideals, but women only have illusions"
Univ. of Keele,	              - Nietzsche			
Staffs
ST5 5BG
cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk
Xref: sparky alt.fandom.misc:92 rec.arts.sf.fandom:1452
From: meltsner@crd.ge.com (Kenneth J. Meltsner)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.misc,rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: fanzine history (was Latest F5 info)
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:35:58 GMT
Reply-To: meltsner@crd.ge.com
Organization: GE Research and Development Center



In article <C1IILp.z1@panix.com>, pnh@panix.com (Patrick
Nielsen-Hayden) writes:
|>I've known people in
|>these other fandoms who lived, breathed, slept & ate fanzines, never mind
|>the ostensible subject-matter.  If they'd been members of our little
|>microcosm we would have called them fannish fanzine fans.

Definitely, which is the main appeal of zines like _Factsheet Five_
(the start of the whole discussion) -- the appeal of reading works
from those who are overwhelmingly interested in a subject, any subject
at all.  I'd rather read a fanzine pubbed by fan of a subject I don't
care much about, than a zine put out by an apathetic bystander on a
topic I love.

Amateur frequently is taken to mean "poorly-performed," but we should
not forget that it comes from _love_, and, at least for me, that can
override considerations such as proofreading, printing quality, and
timely delivery.

===============================================================================
Ken Meltsner                        | meltsner@crd.ge.com (518) 387-6391
GE Research and Development Center  | Fax:  (518) 387-6474
P.O. Box 8, Room KWD270		    | Nothing I say should be attributed
Schenectady, NY 12301               | to my employer, and probably vice-versa
"It's probable, just not very likely." -- Fire Maidens From Outer Space.
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.misc,rec.arts.sf.fandom
From: user@computer.uio.no (PC Jorgensen)
Subject: Re: fanzine history (was Latest F5 info)
Organization: UiO
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 23:41:38 GMT

Nice to see that I wasn't the only fanzine fan and editor to react to 
that punk... ;->

Concerning zines in general, I'd also like to add that I would dare to
venture the point that fannish zines are in one sense different from for
example punk zines and music zines. For at least parts of fanzine fandom,
fanzine publishing and reading sometimes becomes the _main point_ of the
activity [even supplanting written sf], while I think punk zines and 
writing usually takes a less elevated place in "Punkdom", after music,
lifestyle and politics.

Yours,

PC

-------------------------
PC Jorgensen
Grad. student (Russian)
Department of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
Norway
Xref: sparky alt.fandom.misc:76 alt.zines:394
From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.misc,alt.zines
Subject: Who's keeping zines alive (was Re: Latest F5 info)
Followup-To: alt.fandom.misc
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:06:42 -0600
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
Summary: Where fanzines came from, and when

In article <1993Jan25.000414.25673@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> bobc@pyramid.unr.edu (Bob Conrad) writes:
>the other thing about all this zine
>talk that's pissing me off is evident in an announcement i got in the mail
>for an upcoming zine show.  it said "fanzines=artzines, homozines, litzines,
>femzines, musiczines, personalzines, punkzines, comiczines" or something
>to that effect.  to read it you'd get the impression on "punkzines" are
>some little bastard faction of fanzines, when in reality fanzines have been
>nurtured and hyped almost exclusively by the punk scene for the last
>15 years!  sure, they word "fanzine" originally came from sci-fi rags
>in the early 70s but it's been punk culture that kept the word alive
>and then pushed it to its presnt possibilities.  

As the editor of a science fiction fanzine, I'd like to thank you for
your condescending sneer.

For your information, Buster, the first SF fanzine was published in
NINEteenTHIRTY.  And SF people have kept up a steady stream of
eccentric publications ever since.

>it's been the punk
>culture that nurtured and revitalized the small underground press the same
>way it nurtured and revitalized vinyl and cassette tapes and film and
>fashion and rock-n-roll and, to some extent, radical art and radical
>politics....END  (there's more but you get the point)

This may well be.  I wish you well in your ongoing efforts to conduct
a cultural revolution.

Punk.

     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
 /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
 |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \       /     Bitnet:     HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
   -   -       Internet:  HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS
From: bobc@pyramid.unr.edu (Bob Conrad)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.misc
Subject: Re: Who's keeping zines alive (was Re: Latest F5 info)
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:28:41 GMT
Organization: University of Nevada, Reno  Department of Computer Science
X-Posted-From: pyramid.cs.unr.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1993Jan25.200642.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.000414.25673@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> bobc@pyramid.unr.edu (Bob Conrad) writes:
>>the other thing about all this zine
>>talk that's pissing me off is evident in an announcement i got in the mail
>>for an upcoming zine show.  it said "fanzines=artzines, homozines, litzines,
>>femzines, musiczines, personalzines, punkzines, comiczines" or something
>>to that effect.  to read it you'd get the impression on "punkzines" are
>>some little bastard faction of fanzines, when in reality fanzines have been
>>nurtured and hyped almost exclusively by the punk scene for the last
>>15 years!  sure, they word "fanzine" originally came from sci-fi rags
>>in the early 70s but it's been punk culture that kept the word alive
>>and then pushed it to its presnt possibilities.  
>
>As the editor of a science fiction fanzine, I'd like to thank you for
>your condescending sneer.

you're welcome, i don't care.

>For your information, Buster, the first SF fanzine was published in
>NINEteenTHIRTY.  And SF people have kept up a steady stream of
>eccentric publications ever since.
>
>>it's been the punk
>>culture that nurtured and revitalized the small underground press the same
>>way it nurtured and revitalized vinyl and cassette tapes and film and
>>fashion and rock-n-roll and, to some extent, radical art and radical
>>politics....END  (there's more but you get the point)
>
>This may well be.  I wish you well in your ongoing efforts to conduct
>a cultural revolution.

well tell it to aaron cometbus, he wrote the thing.  now, go back
and read it, it says:  

	"from cometbus #29...."

clue = look into it
From: S.S.B.Glover@bradford.ac.uk (SSB GLOVER)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.misc
Subject: Re: Who's keeping zines alive (was Re: Latest F5 info)
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:27:56 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 92909131@fennel
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Cheers, Bill. Thanks for saying that. I'd been going to dig out a pile of
british zine reviews of the sf persuasion (including refs to Hansen's fan
histories).

There was a suggestion in a copy of Foundation a few years ago (from 4SJ or
Sam Lundwall, forget which ;-) that zines and apas in part developed from the
crazy antics of printers' apprentices...

Steve Glover (amongst other sins, editor of Matrix, the news zine of the
British Science Fiction Association ... information- and zine hungry at all
times... we always carry fanzine reviews)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
From: uad1104@dircon.co.uk (Martin Easterbrook)
Subject: INTERSECTION - Looking for Con Publications
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 00:36:19 GMT
Summary: INTERSECTION would like to build up a libarary of documents about conru
Keywords: INTERSECTION,Worldcon,conrunning



                        A Con Runner's Library ?
                        ========================

A lot of our work in organising INTERSECTION has been helped by access to
publications which discuss convention running like MAD III PARTY from NOREASCON
as well as any internal documents from the running of past Worldcons and large
regionals which we can get hold of.

  We have access to similar sorts of information about past British conventions
although even here our collection is not as complete as we would like but out
main problem is access to similar material from the USA (and the rest of
Europe).

If you have copies of any con running documentation at all we would be
interested to hear about it. Now is the chance to clear out that back room
that's been full of paper since MINNEAPOLIS IN 73 !

We would also be particularly interested in material on floppy disk.

If we can get a good collection together we may be able to set it up as a
reference library form SMOFCON in Jersey (the one in the English Channel) after
Easter.

If you've got any material or know of other publications similar to MAD III
PARTY we would be interested to hear from you.

==============================================================================
Martin Easterbrook              uad1104@dircon.co.uk

My opinions only have official backing in the alternate universe where I live.
===============================================================================
From: WIS@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: Eastercon ????
Date: 23 Jan 93 15:25:58 GMT
Organization: University of Liverpool

Quick question: where(what/who/why etc) is Eastercon this year?

I have this nagging feeling that it is in Jersey (the island - we're talking
UK here - nothing to do with the USA) but I could easily be wrong.

Can anyone tell me who to get in touch with to get registration details!

Thanks

Bill Sellers (wis@uxb.liv.ac.uk)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
From: sokay@cyclone.mitre.org (Stephen J. Okay)
Subject: Re: Castle Con
Keywords: castle con
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean, VA
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 17:54:29 GMT

In article <C1H4AL.D6s@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> jhines@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Joseph Hines) writes:
>
>soon I will post the dates for castle con 5 (#?) 

Umm....unless you're temporally challenged, I believe that
should be C6, or the badge hanging off my lamp from C5 is a
harbinger of things to come. :)

---Steve

-- 
---------
sokay@cyclone.mitre.org
		"Your Mind....My Playground" ---me 
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
From: 860473m@axe.acadiau.ca (BRIAN MCGEE)
Subject: KINGCON"
Summary: Kingcon convention in Saint John, NB
Keywords: cons, sf, fantasy
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:18:22 GMT

Kingcon is a convention highlighting science fiction, fantasy, gaming, and 
technology. It will be held at the Delta Brunswick Hotel, King St., Saint 
John, New Brunswick, Canada, from July 16-18, 1993. Special guests
(tentative): Stephen King; John Bogdanov, one of the artists who killed 
Superman. Tickets are $20.00 advance, $25.00 at the door. 

Query 860473M@axe.acadiau.ca for more information. or write:

Kingcon
MPO Box 1212
Saint John, N.B.
Canada
E2L 4G7
From: electro@access.digex.com (Gary Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: Re: Castle Con
Date: 28 Jan 1993 15:42:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com
Keywords: castle con

Umm, that's last year's info.

This year is CastleCon 6, July 2-4th, Doubletree Inn, Crystal City



-- 
     ELECTRO   | Gary J. Ehrlich           | "Real filkers don't document;
    E_____     |                           |  if it was hard to write it   
   E           | electro@access.digex.com  |  should be hard to scan" 
  ELECTRO      | G. EHRLICH on GEnie       |
From: bobbitt@school.enet.dec.com (Jody Bobbitt)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: Arisia '94, january 14-16, Boston
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:40:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


      Announcing (and if someone else already announced it, 
                  please flame me offline!)    

	ARISIA '94: January 14-16, 1994
            @ The Boston Park Plaza Hotel
      GoHs: Spider and Jeanne Robinson
      AGoH: Michael Whelan
      FGoH: David Kyle

    Memberships are currently $30 for pre-registration 
    (no schedule for cost increases has been published yet)

    If you wish to buy a membership, please send your name, address, and
    some financial supplement (checks made out to ARISIA, visa/mastercard
    information, etc....) to

    Arisia Incorporated
    1 Kendall Square, suite 322
    Cambridge, MA 02139

    more information as it occurs,

    -Jody

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jody Bobbitt			 | bobbitt@school.enet.dec.com
				 | ...!decwrl!school.enet.dec.com!bobbitt
"so wired I could broadcast..."	 | bobbitt%school.enet.dec@decwrl.dec.com
From: dragon@camelot.bradley.edu (Matthew Korth)
Subject: B-CON, the sixth chapter...
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: na
Date: 23 Jan 93 18:58:13 GMT


I promise there won't be any more than two more of these shameless B-CON
plugs...

On February 27th and 28th, 1993, the Bradley University Medieval
College Society will be hosting:

B-CON!!!

...on the campus of Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois.

Our guests of honor are:
Dr. Greg Guzman, on feudalism
Dr. Jean Jost, on medieval romance literature
Steve Maggi, editor of _Journeys Magazine_
Steve Bryant, editor of _Challenge Magazine_
Rob Lazzaretti and LaMont Fullerton, illustrators of _Dangerous Journeys_
Jason Tamarak, author of _Biotech_

We will be running the following games:
Shadowrun II
Champions (2 scenarios)
Star Wars (2nd ed.)
an AD&D1 tournament scenario
an AD&D2 scenario
an AD&D2 Ravenloft scenario
Warhammer minis
Toon
Vampire
Clay-o-Rama
Supremacy
WH40K
Warhammer fantasy
Top Secret/SI

We *may* be running a second Shadowrun game, along with GURPS.

In addition, the GDW demo team will be here, demonstrating Dangerous
Journeys.

Fees are $5 for the weekend, $3 per day if you preregister; $7 for the
weekend and $5 per day if you pay at the door.

Pre-registration information should include the names of all the
people you're registering (yes, we *do* have a reason for that
request), and should be sent (along with the money) to:

B-CON REGISTRATION
c/o Medieval College Society
425 Sisson Hall
Bradley University
Peoria, IL  61625

More specific information will be posted when available.  If you would like
to receive this information through email, send email to one of these email
addresses:
	dragon@camelot.bradley.edu (this one is preferred)
	dragon@cs1.bradley.edu
	mystk@camelot.bradley.edu

...and we will send you the information.

(p.s. If you need to speak with someone, the MCS office's phone number
is (309) 677-3358.  We do have an answering machine, and if no-one's
there, we'll call you back as soon as we can.)

--
****** Matt Korth ************************** dragon@camelot.bradley.edu ******
			ENERGIZER BUNNY ARRESTED!
		     Police charge him with battery.
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
From: lrfox@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (linda ream fox)
Subject: Last Confabulation warning
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 22:49:46 GMT

February 5, 6 and 7, 1993

Stonehenge Lodge, Bedford, IN.  (Take I-37 south to Bedford.  Stonehenge
Lodge is next to Highway just North of Bedford's Stone City Mall.  Watch for
signs.)



Guest of Honor: Mike Resnick, Hugo Winner, Author of _Lucifer Jones_,
_Purgatory_, and Editor of _Aladdin_, and _Whatdunnits_.

Fan GoH: Grant Conan McCormick, Louisville fan and former IU student.

Filk GoH: Bill Roper famous for _The Grim Roper_ and other tapes.

Also appearing: Buck and Juanita Coulson, Michael (Moonwulf) Longcor, Eric
Webb, Matt Sohlstrom, Bill Rintz, Renee Alper, James S. Dorr and others.


 Price:
     Adult $22.00 for 2 or 3 days.
           $11.00 for 1 day.

     Children 5-15: $11.00 for 2 or 3 days.
                    $ 6.50 for 1 day.
          (Sorry, we do not provide child care.  Children under 15 MUST
be supervised by adult, who is also registered at the con.)


     Children 0-5: $0 for 1-3 days.


Room Rates:
     $54.00 (including tax) flat rate.
     Call 1 (800) 274-2974 for reservations, or suite information.

Filk till you croak.    
Panels on science, fandom, and other strange and bizarre topics. (One
of them will be on Strange Things on Computer Nets--find out what
they're saying about YOU!)
Game room.
24-hour video room.
Our Famous never-go-hungry Latvian Con Suite.
Parties.
Huckster room with books, jewelry, and more cosmic goodies.
Art Show with prints and original artwork.  (This year we've got a lot
of artists who haven't shown with us before.)

Huckster and Art Show space is still available.  Contact us for more
information.

For more information, Email:

lrfox@silver.ucs.indiana.edu  or
foxd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu

(If you are a Bloomington local who needs a ride, let us know and it
might be possible for us to arrange transportation on Friday.)




     

Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
From: tim@smof.demon.co.uk (Tim Illingworth)
Subject: Re: Eastercon ???? 
Distribution: world
Organization: None round here!
Reply-To: tim@smof.demon.co.uk
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 16:14:49 +0000

In article <93023.152558WIS@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> WIS@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK writes:

>Quick question: where(what/who/why etc) is Eastercon this year?
>
>Can anyone tell me who to get in touch with to get registration details!

Yes, it's Helicon, at the Hotel de France in St Helier, Jersey, CI.  
GoHs John Brunner, George RR Martin.  FanGoH Larry
van der Putte.  Artist GoH Karel Thole.

Membership currently UKL 28 attending.  Rooms UKL 25 pp pn share twin
inc buffet breakfast etc.

Address is 63 Drake Road, Chessington, Surrey KT9 1LQ, UK

You can get ASCII copies of the booking docs by mailing 
mailserver@smof.demon.co.uk.  Include lines 'get <filename>' in the text.

Files currently available are:

----------- 	-------- Helicon files -----------
accom.frm 	Helicon Accommodation Booking Form
con.frm 	Helicon Convention Information Form
travel.frm 	Helicon Travel Booking Form
full.book 	Helicon Booking Instructions (Full)(47K)
northam.book 	Helicon Booking Instructions (Short)(24K)

----------- 	-------- Smofcon files -----------
smofconx.pr1 	Smofcon 10 Progress Report 1
smofconx.pr2 	Smofcon 10 Progress Report 2

----------- 	-------- Intersection (WorldCon) files -----------
int.pr0.1 	Intersection Progress Report 0.1


Full.book has the UK airfares in it, in a possibly readable manner.
northam.book omits these.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Illingworth            | SF Conventions supplied in all sizes:
Chessington, Surrey, UK    | Helicon     :Eastercon & Eurocon '93: Jersey CI
tim@smof.demon.co.uk       | Smofcon 10  :16-18 April 1993       : Jersey CI
timill@cix.compulink.co.uk | Intersection:Worldcon: 24-28 Aug '95: Glasgow
----------------------------------------------------------------------------