From: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: [l/m 3/23/92] Scouting Information: Distilled Wisdom (11/28) XYZ
Followup-To: poster
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 11:20:46 GMT
Reply-To: millard@acsu.buffalo.edu (peter g millard)

See rec.scouting.

From: millard@acsu.buffalo.edu (peter g millard)

SUBJECT:  INFORMATION ON SCOUTING

--- Addresses for further information:

Boy Scouts of America
National Office
Irving, Texas 75015-2079

Girl Scouts of America
National Office
830 Third Avenue
New York, NY  10022

Philmont Scout Ranch and Explorer Base
Cimarron, NM  87714

Florida National High Adventure Sea Base
P.O. Box 858
Islamorada, FL  33036

Charles Sommers Canoe Base 
Box 509
Ely, MN  55731

Adirondack Adventure Area
Northeast Region
P.O. Box 350
Dayton, NY  08810

Tinnerman Wilderness Canoe Base
  (French River, Ontario)
c/o Cleveland Scout Council
Woodland and 22nd St
Cleveland, OH  44115
216/861-6060

Haliburton Scout Rerservation
Haliburton, ONT,  CANADA

Check your phone book for the local Council Office

[This document contains comments from myself (Peter), Dale Mahoney, ]
[and Pat O'Connell...Any additional comments can be sent to me.     ]
                                                 

>From millard@acsu.buffalo.edu 
>From dmahoney@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
>From oconnell@rye.cs.unm.edu

--- General Organizational & ethical Info

  Scouting in general plays a very important role in the evolution of the
backcountry.  It continues to be brought up on the net, and it was
felt that the basic purposes and ethics of scouting in general should be
addressed .  I would like to clarify some of the misconceptions about scouting
in general, and illustrate some of the ideals that are taught in scouting.
There is a small section of addresses you may contact for further information
at the beginning of this document.

  Scouting began as a world-wide movement that was established in all parts of
the world, and attempts to further the education, moral standards, and ethics
of young people around the globe.  The scouting movement does much, much more
than educate boys about the outdoors and camping.  It provides a learning
institution in which a young man can acquire such things as leadership skills,
public speaking abilities, and the techniques needed to run a large scale
organization in cooperation with several other people.
  Boy Scouts is primarily involved in character-building or values-training.
So, unfortunately, this often can limit the extent of their focus on
backcountry activities or environmental information.  Different troops
are different.  Find the best ones.

  Scouting was established as an organization for young boys, and eventually,
many organizations have been started to include more of an age spectrum.
It should be noted, that organizations change significantly with different
countries, thus these are only the groups for America.  Currently, a boy
can enter the scouting organization at age 7, with Tiger Cubs.  He then
moves into Cub Scouts at age 9, and Boy Scouts at age 11.  At the age
of 14, a boy may choose to enter an Explorer Post, which are interest
specific. For example, there are Sea Explorer Posts, Law Enforcement
Posts, High Adventure Posts, etc... (A boy may be active in an Explorer
post and a scout Troop at the same time ; in fact many do. )
A boy is considered an "adult" leader when he can no longer advance 
in rank, which is at the age of 18.
As the boys move from Tiger Cubs up through to Boy Scouts or Explorers,
the groups are run less and less by the adults, and more and more by the
boys themselves.  In Explorers, there are really only adult advisors, no
"leaders" per say.
  Women are not excluded from joining Explorers and a growing number of
"High Adventure" Explorer posts have formed around the country.  Again,
some of these are better than others, but the best of them serve the
function of mixed gender backcountry activities for males and 
females from 16 to 21 years old.

  A large part of scouting has emphasis on the outdoors.  Many of our themes,
and the skills that we teach are centered on the theme of camping, and the
respect for mother nature.  We educate these boys about such things as knots,
cooking, and firebuilding, and we also instruct them on ideals such as low
impact camping (which is being practiced more and more) basic backpacking,
and canoeing to name a few.
  Scouting is responding to the changing attitudes towards the backcountry and
most recently the BSA came out with a new and updated manual to reflect these
changes.  In times gone by, scouting conjured up images of young boys sitting
around a big bon fire, in the middle of the woods someplace, roasting hot dogs
and singing songs.  In the present, this scene is typically only found in
scout camps, and never out in the backcountry.  Scouting is really changing
the way they operate to accommodate a more environmental behavior.  Another
such occurence is the fact that the BSA never up until 3 years ago, let troops
use stoves which operate on white gas because they were too dangerous.
However, since most backpacking stoves use white gas, they are now allowing
troops to own and operate white gas stoves to eliminate the need to do open
fire cooking.
  The scouting organization has a long history and several traditions;
some of these which, are seen as high impact events.  It is important to
note that these traditions (such as big campfires to open or close a gathering
of several groups, or the cutting of pine boughs to show survival techniques)
typically take place at specific locations on designated camps to minimize
the impact.  It is a far better thing to control the impact on a specific
area, where thousands of people will travel than to have the impact of those
same thousands in a place which is much more succeptable to the extinction of
that ecosystem.

Dale comments:
  An area like a council camp probably should be treated with good 
environmental ethics so that that becomes a habit for all areas.  
Bad habits multiply, particularly among young minds.  
However, it is much better to 
camp 300-500 scouts in a council camp than let them roam in a larger,
more fragile area.  The point that needs to be expressed is that different
levels of camping experience are needed for different camping areas.
Council camps fall on the lowest rungs of that hierarchy.
(Higher than a farm field, lower than most backcountry.)  It 
would be great if every council camp was require to set aside x %
of its council camp and limit that area with no permanent
structures, camping or fires.  That would impress some people with 
the value and fragility of some areas over others.  
But the national organization will not likely 
do this because the organization puts much of its power into the hands of 
the local program and is reluctant to tie their hands.  

  Scouting in America was partially founded on the nostalgia of the pioneer and
the frontier.  As such, the values Scouting ascribes to today are primarily 
utilitarian.  That is beginning to change recently, but the organization 
still tends to be about 10-15 years behind the vanguard.  Since the troop is
the single most important unit and run almost exclusively by the
Scoutmaster, some troops can and do overcome this emphasis.
  In order to let many troops experience the outdoors, there are
thousands of camps located through-out the country.  The majority of these
are run by local councils (many troops in one area constitute a council, and
there are many councils in a state); however, there are a few larger camps
which are run by the national office.  One of the most popular of these
is Philmont Scout Ranch located in Cimarron, New Mexico.  This is an area of
land that has hundreds of miles of backpacking trails which runs semi-guided
trips for troops all over the nation and world.  This is typically a
wonderful experience since it promotes low impact backpacking.  The scouts
are taught about the proper equipment to use such as boots,stoves,packs,etc.
There are several other National High Adventure Bases located around the
country, such as the Florida Sea Base, the Robert Service Canoe Base, located
near the Minnesota boundary waters.  Althogh the official canoe base in
Maine has been closed, many troops and scouting organizations still plan
trips in this area on state and national land. Occassionally groups will get
permission from private land owners to traverse their land as well.

Pat comments:

  The Haliburton Scout Reserve near Haliburton, Ontario also deserves mention.
Many American scout troops go here rather than some council camps, 
since it's closer to the Northeast and the experience is generally 
better (tent camping only, no chopping things down, only permanent 
structures in the troop camps are "kybos"--outhouses, and lots of canoeing, 
hiking, and enerally good backcountry experience!).  My troop went to Haliburton twice while i was active in it.

[editors note:
[  Philmont is a tent camping only area, and has very few permanent structures,
[ most of which were there when the land was acquired in 1938.  It strongly
[ discourages chopping anything down, and is run by the national BSA offices
[ not a local council.  
[  Many council summer programs are run during the summer and are what 
[ would be considered high impact camps (typically eating in a dinning
[ hall, wall tents with platforms, etc...) which greatly contrasts
[ Philmont and Haliburton and other low impact scouting camps. ]

 
  Dale pointed out that not all participants at Philmont learn all that 
they should be taught. This can be said for all of scouting in general. 
There is so much that young people should be taught about the backcountry,
but there are always deficiencies. 
  Beware the words "high adventure".  They are scouting's euphemism
for backcountry activities and are applied liberally and sometimes cavalierly.
Make sure, better yet, insist, despite any Scoutmaster objections, that troops
adhere to national scouting safety standards, which includes at least one
WSI or BSA Lifeguard for floating activities and certifications in CPR
and first aid for all activities.  Good Scoutmasters will follow
these anyway.
  Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are unfortunately and strangely distant from each
other.  Only Scouts and Explorers can attend the "High Adventure" bases.
Eventually, the increasing number of women Scoutmasters (they do exist)
will ask why they, their son and husband can receive what their daughter can't.
Some quasi-merger or cooperation agreement is likely in the future.

  There has also been some concern and options expressed about the actual
scouting experience. All troops in scouting are different and the 
differences depend *directly* on the scoutmaster.  If you want to find 
a troop that is active and takes part in all types of camping, find a 
scoutmaster who is. (As in the regular population, a higher percentage 
of troops who camp in the backcountry exist in areas of the West like 
Colorado and California.  But there are all types in all places.)
It is unfortunate that some troops lack
the adult leadership to adequately teach the scouts about the proper
ideals concerning the backcountry; however they continue to operate,
and provide very little useful information to the scouts, and typically turn
the kids off of backpacking, camping, etc...  Thus we see vast amounts
of people who were scouts, but had a bad experience and will probably
at most do some car-camping in the future.  Despite these unfortunate
occurences, it is evident that there are several troops that are conveying
the correct ideals concerning the outdoors, and teaching their scouts to
show it the proper respect.
  
  Quite recently, scouting as a national organization has come into the
media concerning several court cases involving moral, as opposed to
environmental issues.  Specifically the evidence about discrimination in
various circumstances have come into question.   There are cases pending
in court about the dismissal of a gay scoutmaster, the refusal of the
regional headquarters to admit a young girl into cubscouts, and the issue
of religious influence on scouting.

Dale comments:

It is important that r.b readers realize that Scouting
can never go as far as someone (anyone) may want it to.  If people
are serious about "training" their kids for the backcountry,
they'd be foolish to let Scouting do all of the talking.  Scouting 
is a good start, but for depth or special expertise, you should
look toward individuals, not organizations.

  Well there is some general information, some personal views,
and some information concerning the current topics of scouting...
Comments, questions ???


[to all those net landers who have read this far through this panel]
[I would appreciate any comments about the Girl Scouts or the      ]
[Campfire Girls, as I don't have much experience or knowledge.     ]
[    THANX in advance,  peter...                                   ]

Added note by Miya:
The BITNET world now has a scouting mailing list.


1/ DISCLAIMER
2/ Ethics
3/ Learning I
4/ learning II (lists, "Ten Essentials," Chouinard comments)
5/ Summary of past topics
6/ Non-wisdom: fire-arms topic circular discussion
7/ Learning (3)
8/ Fletcher's Law of Inverse Appreciation and advice
9/ Water Filter wisdom
10/ Words from Rachel Carson
11/ Scouting					<* THIS PANEL *>
12/ Netiquette
13/ Questions on conditions and travel
14/ Dedication to Aldo Leopold
15/ Leopold's lot.
16/ currently empty
17/ Information about bears
18/ Poison ivy, frequently ask, under question
19/ Lyme disease, frequently ask, under question
20/ "Telling questions" backcountry Turing test (under construction)
21/ AMS
22/ Words from Foreman and Hayduke
23/ A bit of song (like camp songs)
24/ What is natural?
25/ A romantic notion of high-tech employment
26/ Other news groups of related interest, networking
27/ Films/cinema references
28/ References (written)