HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Crucifixion of Jesus?
Date: 23 Dec 92 19:07:54 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Dec17.180435.17980@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
|> >Jesus being called "the son of Mary" (which implies an illegitimate
|> >paternity), Jesus needing to be baptised, etc.
|> 
|> Just curious, but how does Jesus being called the son of Mary
|> imply illegitimacy?  Remember, at the time of the passage Joseph
|> is believed to have been dead.  It seems quite natural to be
|> labeled the son of a widow, doesn't it?

I doubt it.  In most cultures that use patronymics the son continues to use
it his entire life, even after his father dies.  Changing a person's *name*
just because his father died sort of defeats the purpose of having the extra
part of the name, after all.

So, yes, using a matronymic *does* imply the father is unknown.

[Note, I *do* agree with you that the best evidence supports a crucifixion].

|> > Arguably, you could be right, there *might* have been no need to mention
|> > the cross - although we see that by the time he wrote 1 Corinthians,
|> > Paul had become positively *obsessed* with "the cross." The significance
|> > of this matter is that 1 Thess. 2:15 quite plainly blames the JEWS, not
|> > the Romans, for executing Jesus. This implies that, when it was written
|> > (c. 48) Paul had in mind a Jewish, not a Roman, execution.
|> 
|> Not at all. "Blame" as you put it, has no necessary connection
|> with who did the actual execution.  If I pay someone to murder my
|> brother, then who shoulders the majority of the blame, myself or
|> the payed hit man?

Under current law, I suspect you are considered equally to blame.

Though I do not really like to talk about blame in this case, it obscures
the real point of His execution.

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21623 alt.messianic:3706
From: biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic
Subject: Matthew vs. Mark vs. Luke vs. Q
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:56:11 GMT
Followup-To: alt.messianic
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742



We've strayed far off the original topic, which
was none too relevant to sci.skeptic, anyway. Thus,
followups are redirected--we don't want to drown
out _JOHN_-_-_-_WINSTON____, after _all_.

Part of the argument that got us into posting
long passages of Greek was over whether the synoptic
gospels were copied from each other, or from a common
(Q) source. These two are not necessarily exclusive.
Here is what the intro's to the New American Bible
(Roman Cath. translation) have to say:

Mark--shortest gospel, with additional chapters
appended by a different writer

Matthew--has access to Mark; copies some. Adds
240 new verses, deduced to have come
from the "Q" source.

Luke--regards himself as collector of both prev.
writings and eyewitness accounts. Most scholars think
that he used Mark as principal source, including
an independent passion narrative; others believe
Mark was only a supplementary source.

Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21885 alt.messianic:3791
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 16:52 MST  
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <92365.172624U19807@uicvm.uic.edu>, <U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> writes...
>(I also vaguely recall that the Catholic church attempted to put the kibosh on
>Copernicus' theories but couldn't due to his remoteness from the Papal States
>and because the Polish crown decided not to fork him over to the Roman branch
>of the Inquisition. Anybody who knows more about this is free to contradict me
>if he/she has better documentation than I do.)

Copernicus' _De Revolutionibus_ was dedicated to Pope Paul III, who praised
the book.  The book was printed with a preface by Andreas Osiander, a
Lutheran theologian, who inserted it without obtaining Copernicus'
position and without appending his name to it.  In this preface,
Osiander wrote that the Copernican system was a useful mathematical
device, but of course we all know that the earth does not really move.
Copernicus was never in any real trouble because only astronomers
proficient in mathematics could understand anything but the first book
of _De Revolutionibus_, and because he died shortly after its publication.
(See Thomas Kuhn, _The Copernican Revolution_, 1957, Harvard University
Press.)

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: tke@shep.att.com (Tom Epstein [415])
Subject: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Originator: news@cbnewsg.cb.att.com
Organization: Bell Laboratories
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 17:28:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.235840.8901@rosevax.rosemount.com> (Grant Edwards) 
writes in part:
 
|> 
|> The point was: If somebody _claims_ to be a christian, how are we
|> poor, ignorant, non-believers to judge whether or not they _are_ a
|> christian?  We can't, so we must operate under the assumption that
|> somebody who claims to be a christian _is_ a christian.
|> 
|> --
|> Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  I'm reporting for duty
|> Rosemount Inc.                                |as a modern person.  I want
|>                                               |to do the Latin Hustle now!
|> grante@aquarius.rosemount.com                 |

................................................................................

Mr. Edward's question, "...how are we... to judge whether or not they _are_a 
(sic) christian" is a valid one.  It seems to me; however, that his conclusion 
that skeptics *must* assume that "somebody who claims to be a christian _is_ a 
christian" is not easy to defend. If one wishes to hold the skeptical line, the 
best conclusion one can draw from anyone's claim of Christianity (unless other 
evidence is offered) is, "This person claims to be a Christian."

An ancient debate within the Church has been centered on the question of exactly 
how one should define the word, "Christian;" both as it is used as a noun and an 
adjective. The debate has been so hot in fact that many people have committed 
acts in the name of their definition(s) that I suppose Christ Himself would con-
demn them.  e.g: The drowning of Ana-baptists by Lutherans, The Spanish Inqui-
sition, and so on.

I would almost expect it to be taken as axiomatic that persons who ferverently 
behave in a manner which Jesus (based upon what Christians themselves believe 
were his teachings) would condemn should not be assumed to be Christians, bar-
ring any evidence other than their claims.  As the old saying goes:

	"If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and 
	lays duck eggs like a duck, the chances are pretty good that its a 
	duck."

Of course Jesus is reported to have said it better:

	"... by their fruit you will recognize them." (Matt. Chap. 7: Vs. 20)

--
Truly,

Tom
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Hoagland? What's the deal?
Date: 27 Dec 1992 11:52:37 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <roelle.724974838@uars_mag>, roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle) writes:
=graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) writes:
=
=>In article <1992Dec18.145633.15270@twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com>, mccreary@sword.eng.hou.compaq.com (Ed McCreary) writes...
=
=>>He also claims that the only reason the Mars Observer has a camera
=>>is too investigate the "face" and that NASA knows something but
=>>is keeping the public in the dark.
=
=>What I dread is that NASA/JPL may claim that they could not get a shot
=>of the Cydonia region.  This is entirely possible.
=
=>The unfortunate part of this is that their failure to image that region
=>with MO will be taken as further fuel to the conspiracy of silence.
=
=>So, I would think that it would be in their best interest, if there
=>is no conspiracy, to go out of their way to get images of the region.
=
=On the other hand an attempt by NASA to intentionally image that
=particular region -- especially going out of their way to do so
=(whatever that means and however they do so) -- with MO can also fuel
=the conspiracy of "See there!  Something funny's going on at Mars, and
=NASA knows something they aren't telling!"

True, and quite unfortunate, since the face-freaks managed to convince a few
key Congressmen to enact a bill that specifically requires MO to look at
Cydonia.  NASA was already planning to take a look anyway, but the Congressmen
decided to kill a few more trees so that the already-planned mapping would have
their imprimature.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: interminable ad hominem argument
Date: 31 Dec 1992 02:45:51 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1992Dec31.200542.1@stsci.edu>, zellner@stsci.edu writes:
|> 
|> |> >>Thousands (if not millions) of people have been tortured and killed in
|> |> >>the service of christianity.  
|> 
|>  >  - Hitler was Roman Catholic.
|>  >  - Atheists were not allowed to become member of the SA 
|> 
|> There have been plenty of wicked people who really believed in the 
|> conservation of energy and momentum.  Does that imply that such beliefs
|> are incorrect?

No.   It says that you can't use Hitler as an example of the
evils of Atheism or anti-religious sentiment.

In fact, if we restore the context that you deleted, we see that
the statement above was a retort to just such a claim.   Here it
is:

|> |> >This century has tried several experiments in explicitly anti-religious
|> |> >statecraft - and the body count has been stupendous. In the enlightened regimes
|> |> >of Hitler and Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot you have exemplars of what you seek;

It's probably not a good idea to delete context like this without
indicating that you have done so, if it changes the sense of what 
remains.

jon.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic
From: ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Reply-To: ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata - FSO)
Organization: HFSI, McLean VA.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 19:00:30 GMT

In article <1hnejhINNnna@gap.caltech.edu> carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
>In article <eharbin.725547983@convex.convex.com>, eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin) writes:
>>In <1992Dec27.235003.4413@rosevax.rosemount.com> grante@aquarius.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) writes:
>>
>>>Thousands (if not millions) of people have been tortured and killed in
>>>the service of christianity.  Even the thousand-year old conflict
>>>between the celts and the anglo-saxons is now reported as a conflict
>>>between protestants and catholics.
>>
>>On the other hand, in what non-Christian country would you choose to live?
>
>How about in one of the many cultures that used to exist but have been
>completly destroyed by Christian evangelism?
>
>You see, Christianity has wiped out not just individuals, but entire cultures.
>
>>This century has tried several experiments in explicitly anti-religious
>>statecraft
>
>Hmmm.  Here once again we see the collossal ignorance and arrogance of a
>typical Christian:  I don't suppose it's ever occurred to you that
>non-Christian does *NOT* mean anti-religious?

Since anti-religious implies anti-Christian (Christianity implies
religion), then I don't think he was ever making the statement you
accuse him of.  He just gave an example of an anti-Christian (by
implication) state. Such a state would also be anti-Jewish,
anti-Moslem, etc.  If your assumption that Christianity is the
root of all human injustice in society today is true, then such a
anti-Christian society should have been a startling success.  The
fact that it wasn't shows that your assumption is false.

>Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL


-- 
John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  ata@hfsi.com
HFS, Inc.		  VA20     |     UUCP:  uunet!hfsi!ata
7900 Westpark Drive	 MS:601	   |    Voice:	(703) 827-6810
McLean, VA  22102	           |      FAX:	(703) 827-3729
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21913 alt.messianic:3805 alt.atheism:24750
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Date: 2 Jan 1993 02:19:19 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1i2tnfINN8rh@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>
>                including therefore that of the Church
> and religion, must be brought to life and eliminated."

Sorry, typo.   That should be "brought to light and eliminated".

jon.
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: homeopaty... NBC's da
Date: 20 Dec 92 18:30:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

DK> .I do however have trouble with the idea that an extremely diluted substanc
  > .could have any effect. My interest lies in substances with dilutions of
  > .reasonable strengths. I have been trying to determine if the definition
  > .of homeopathic includes specific numbers on dilution strengths. Also,
  > .I would be interested to know if modern homeopaths are going with higher
  > .strength substances these days than what has been used historically.

DK> .In short, the idea of homeopathic response is an interesting possibility
  > .to me. Dilution strengths of "a few molecules" do seem absurd, hence my
  > .interest in higher strength remedies.

Homeopathy considers more dilute preparations to be more potent.  A 20x
preparation is more effective than 10x, etc.  (The 10x, 20x, etc. refer
to the number of steps of dilution and percussion.  The percussion
between steps of dilution are considered critical.  Homeopathy does not
consider the existence of _any_ molecules of the original substance as
necessary for the effectiveness of the remedy.

        D/
---
 . QMPro 1.0 41-3345 . Bring back A-N airways!!    Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
From: norton@cco.caltech.edu (Olin Perry Norton)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: homeopaty... NBC's dateline
Date: 30 Dec 1992 09:42:52 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu

Aren't heavy metals, such as arsenic and lead, cumulative poisons
which can build up in the body until the level is enough to
poison you?

This would be the very opposite of building up immunity.

-Perry Norton


Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21928 alt.conspiracy:13639 alt.paranormal:2742
From: spl@ivem.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: The Sarfatti Papers - Destiny Matrix 1
Summary: More papers, please -- I'm down to my last roll...
Date: 2 Jan 93 22:07:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: network.1i53nmINNgo4
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Organization: University of Calif., San Diego/Microscopy and Imaging Resource
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivem.ucsd.edu

In article <BzzECr.2o4@cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>In article <Bzsn6v.5vJ@well.sf.ca.us>, sarfatti@well.sf.ca.us (Jack Sarfatti) writes in part:
>|> Anyone reading this has my permission to re-post on other relevant
>|> conferences e.g. ufos etc. However, all rights researved for commercial use.
>Completely derivative (without proper attribution), and, of course, boring.  
>And he has the gall to reserve the rights to this stuff.  Sheesh.

No, no... he "researved" the rights, not "reserved" them.  The word
"researved," you see, is derived from the ancient Mess-o-potamian word
"phthtththt," (spelled sideways and served with a side dish of
umlauts) which means, roughly, "to fart into the wind."

Hope this helps.

							spl
-- 
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"Living alone is living in perpetual irony and thinking, more and more
frequently, Why not."   - Joyce Carol Oates, "The Boyfriend"
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21726 alt.alien.visitors:9431 alt.paranormal:2703 alt.conspiracy:13440
From: sarfatti@well.sf.ca.us (Jack Sarfatti)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: A Case of Precognition?
Date: 27 Dec 92 17:33:28 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link


I saw the book on Boolean rings myself last week; the back flap has a
biographical sketch of the author and even a photograph. Alexander Abian
has indeed taught mathematics at Iowa State, among other universities.

If this *is* the work of an AI team at Iowa State, it will go down as the
Usenet hoax of the decade. The perpetrators will gain fame, but perhaps
not the Turing prize -- the human guinea pigs were not even made aware of
the possibility that they might be conversing with software.

In any case, I await with bemused interest Abian's reply to your calling
him a computer virus.

I seem to recall that some joker the other day posted something to the
effect that the Autonomous Belaboring something-or-other AI expert system
is available for beta-test from Iowa State. Perhaps that is what gave
you this idea?

With amusement (and best wishes for the new year),

Dale Atems

------
Dale Atems
Wayne State University, Detroit, MI
Department of Physics and Astronomy
atems@igor.physics.wayne.edu

No Dale I did not see the information about the AI system from Iowa state
until you e-mailed me the above information. What actually happened was that
as soon as I glanced at an ABIAN piece the idea that it was an AI program
instantly flashed into my awareness - like a telepatype from the future - as
I fantasize them to be - a kind of mini-Divine Inspiration - Muse as Imp.
So, perhaps, your message to me above was the future cause whose past effect
was my posting that ABIAN may be an AI program whose author is that
modern-day Professor Moriarty - Alexander Abian! It's elementary, my dear
Atems!
.                           .
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: Chuck Missler and imminent Armageddon
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:03:53 GMT

In article <28DEC199219414469@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu> tis written:

> While visiting my parents over the holidays, my stepfather gave me
> a cassette of a lecture by Chuck Missler to listen to...
>
> 2.  In Genesis 49:10, the first letter of each Hebrew word spells out
> (in Hebrew) the message "I am Yeshua, the shepherd king."  (Anyone here
> know enough Hebrew to verify/refute this?)

jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au provides the letter names:

"lamed yod shin mem vav mem resh ayin kaf yod shin vav yod ayin"

In Hebrew, they are:
 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___   _ _ __  ,__  _ ,__  _ _ _ _ |_ 
 | | | | | | | |    |  | |   | |  | | |  | | | | |   |
_|/    | |/_/    ___| _|/    | | _| | | _| |/_/     / 

Parse #1:

"li sh'moom ra, k'yeshuya"

 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___     _ _ __    ,__  _ ,__  _ _ _   _ |_ 
 | | | | | | | |    |    | |   |   |  | | |  | | | |   |   |
_|/    | |/_/    ___|  ,_|/    |   | _| | | _| |/_/       / 

Ignoring the last yod, we can awkwardly translate this as:
 
<<<   "Mine that is an evil blemish, similar to Jesus"  >>>

If you want, you can make up sermons based on adding or
removing the "yod," whose numerical value is "10" as in
the Commandments.

Parse #2:

Assign a numerical value to the ayin, and get

"l'yeish mumar ayin, k'yeish vai ayin"

" _ _"  _ _   _ _ _ _ ___   " _ _"  __  ,__  _ ,__    _ _ _ _ |_ 
  | |   | |   | | | |    |    | |     | |  | | |  |   | | | |   |
 _|/      |   |/_/    ___|   _|/      | | _| | | _|   |/_/     / 

<<<  To their being a heretic, a "70," like there is woe, a "70" >>

As 70 is the standard human lifespan, this may be a prophecy that
there will be a person who is a heretic, and his followers
will be the cause of much human woe.

How did Chuck Missler parse these letters?

Rob

[ :-)  for those who take this post seriously ]

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Hoagland? What's the deal?
Date: 27 Dec 92 18:36:11 GMT
Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University Cyclotron Facility, Bloomington, Indiana
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

In article <1hk5mlINN34t@gap.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes...
>In article <Bzp1ur.9Hv@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) writes:
>>In article <roelle.724974838@uars_mag>, roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle) writes...
>>> 
>>>Even when the inconclusive images are released there would be
>>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>statements made that they had been "defocused" to hide the (Choose
>>
>>>Curt Roelle
>>
>>Why "inconclusive"?
> 
>Well, let's see now:
>    1)	It really WAS a face once, but it's eroded since it was built;
>    2)	Well, it's not really shaped like a face, but it was designed so that,
>	from orbit, it would LOOK like a face.
>    3)	Maybe the "pyramids" don't look like pyramids at two-meter resolution,
>	but if we could look at them at 2-centimeter resolution, they'd
>	obviously be artifacts;
>    4)	(This one's for the innumerates out there)  But, given the locations of
>	the "pyramids," Hoagland's come up with LOTS of interesting
>	correlations.  They MUST have been put where they are intentionally!
>Need anybody say more?

The point of my question "Why inconclusive" was that the previous poster
implies that the _new_ images will be inconclusive.  They haven't even
been obtained yet.

It isn't good science to make a claim before having _evidence_, is it?

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
> 
>Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
>understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
>unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
>organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
>hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.

Jim Graham 

        -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
| Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu                              |
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| BBS:      The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) |
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Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.physics,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy