HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: borders@ms.uky.edu (Johnny Borders)
Subject: Re: Byte: Is Unix Dead ?
    <1992Aug22.111057.1821@gamelan> <kz-n2_k.howard@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 01:39:39 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey) writes:

>I like the RS/6000, but I've had a couple of problems w/ xlc and AIX...
>These seemed to be fixed w/ AIX 3.2.2 but the compiler still won't 
>generate a load map (as in 'errors dumped to load map' ... AARGH!).

>There are typically 5 people using our RS/6000 at once and we have
>no problem bogging it down.  :-)

I should say not.. I have no problem bogging down a 320H with just me myself
and I. :) One gentleman mentioned that he must disagree with my first post,
and that RS/6000s offer much faster I/O then NeXTs. What he failed to take
into account was that I wasn't comparing RS/6000s and NeXTs. NeXTs have
(as many tests have shown to me personally, and as many posts here have
refelcted) the worst I/O of any modern workstation. 800K/sec on a NeXTCube with
fast SCSI hard drive. 3MB/sec on a 320H with the same hard drive. If the I/O
were faster, NeXTs would really soar. Math performance? Forget it..
RS/6000s have most other workstations beat by a longshot in floating-point
performance. They probably have the highest SPECfp for the money (but that's
off the top of my head.. I would certainly appreciate some actual figures
to the contrary, if someone could produce them). 
I'm not all the pleased with the compiler, either, now that you mention
it. It's better then that silly MetaWare High C compiler used on AIX/370,
but it still has annoying bugs (which is probably what your 'dumped to
load map' problem is).
-- 
*******************************************************************************
* The University of Kentucky is not responsible * AIX: Marketing or lunacy?   *
* for me, by reason of "Bureaucrats Syndrome,"  * "I never used anything by   *
* a crippling form of insanity.                 *  IBM that I liked."         *
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: isbell@cats.ucsc.edu (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Backhanded NeXTSTEP compliment in the trade rag medium
Date: 25 Aug 1992 22:07:47 GMT
Organization: Cubic Solutions - NeXT software development and consulting
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu



On p. 36 of the Sept. issue of Workstation News, an article about a startup
that will "address the problem of poor integration that has plagued UNIX
software development tools" quotes their VP of Marketing:

"Think of [our environment] as a NeXTstep (sic) environment but done under the
standards of C++ and object orientation, with database layers."

Then why bother; just get NeXTSTEP :-)  It offers C++, but features a purer
object-oriented language, Objective-C, and offers DBKit "database layers"(?).
-- 

Art Isbell                                                      Cubic Solutions
NeXT Registered Developer #745         NeXT software development and consulting
Email: isbell@cats.UCSC.EDU                                Voice: (408)335-1154
USmail: 95018-9442                                           Fax: (408)335-2515
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 10:45:11 EDT
From: <MKK2@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rumor control (was Re: Open Letter: Don't get rid of UNIX

Does anyone know where this rumor came from??  A couple of years ago we
discussed the "Avie doesn't like Unix" thread.  NeXT already *HAS* gotten
rid of Unix in the sense that they encourage things like NXArgv[], NXRead(),
the DPS*() functions, and a lot of similar "non-Unix" features instead
of the traditional Unix equivalent.

1.  Most NeXT programs that have been or will be written will not run on
    other Unix boxes (so what?)

2.  Most Unix programs that have been written will run on a NeXT, in a Terminal
    or Stuart (yea, Stuart!!) window.

   Lastly, who thinks NeXT, Inc. has the manpower available to create a new
OS from scratch?  Could Trevanian (spelling?  sorry) do it alone?  Microsoft
and IBM haven't done such a great job of it, that's for sure.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: caro@adobe.com (Perry A. Caro)
Subject: Re: Object Oriented File System: Huh??
Reply-To: caro@adobe.UUCP  (Perry A. Caro)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated, Mountain View
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 18:26:18 GMT

In article <3488@ra.nrl.navy.mil> pitre@n5160d.nrl.navy.mil (Richard Pitre) writes:
>I think that you will wonder how you got along without it.

No I won't.

I was doing object oriented programming before most people even heard
the term (at the time the Smalltalk-80 spec was published, beat that!)  I
know object oriented programming.  Object oriented programming was a
friend of mine, and believe me, you don't want an objected oriented file
system.

Not now, anyway.  It's premature.  Until an OOFS can provide the
performance of current systems, I don't want anything to do with such
complexity.

For most people, the most crucial feature of a file system is
performance.  Look at all the moaning about how slow the OD was as a
read/write device (not the filesystem's fault, but exemplifies how much
people care about file access speed).

First generation OOFS are bound to underperform mature traditional
filesystems.  One of the strengths of the UNIX FFS is that there is
relatively little code between the read buffer in my application and
the raw device.  A fullblown OOFS would add a huge amount of code,
which necessarily will slow things down.

I've used an "object oriented" file system.  It sucked.  Sure, it had all
sorts of whiz-bang features, like arbitrarily complex access control,
and arbitrarily typed and attributed contents, but the thing ran like a
dog and was very fault intolerant.

There is hope, though.  Hardware keeps getting faster, I/O bandwidth
keeps increasing, and our knowledge of OO keeps expanding.  We'll
eventually get to the point where the overhead of the OOFS is neglible,
but we ain't there yet, certainly not on the NeXT!  Look how long it
took us to get to the FFS.  Don't expect OOFS to come any faster.

Even if OOFS comes, I still want to be able to have a fast, raw pipe to
a device, so I can implement my own higher level abstractions, tuned to
my needs.

Perry
OS Minimalist -- microkernel #1, Pink phooey!
-- 
caro@adobe.com	...!{sun,decwrl}!adobe!caro   Contents: my opinions, no others
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rolfe@ldp.com (Rolfe Tessem)
Subject: Re: NeXt vs Apple -- a couple comments (rtf)
Reply-To: rolfe@ldp.com
Organization: Lucky Duck Productions
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:37:02 GMT

In article <ma-n4dl.howard@netcom.com> howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)  
writes:
> In article <714522019snx@w3vh.UUCP> rolfe@w3vh.UUCP (Rolfe Tessem) writes:
> >maurices@spock.dis.cccd.edu writes in article  
<BtAtz9.Asn@spock.dis.cccd.edu>:
> >
> >(Much NeXT-Mac debate deleted)
> >
> >> Its a bummer to think that some of us are paying $20+ a month for  
internet
> >> access and get the privilege of monitoring such sillines and even more  
of 
> >> a bummer when it gets responded to.
> >
> >Its a bummer to think that some of us are only paying $20 a month for
> >internet access.  How did you arrange this deal of the century?
> >
> 
> Netcom, in the bay area, is only $19 or so a month.
> 
> The big bummer is thet the orig. poster only pays for 'sillyness'.
> I get a hell of a lot more than $20 worth of internet for my $19.00
> netcom fee.
> 

But what do you get for $20?  Is this a dial-up SLIP connection with full  
Internet access, or do you just get an account on a netcom machine?

Rolfe
-- 
Rolfe Tessem				Lucky Duck Productions
rolfe@ldp.com				New York City
(212) 463-0029				(212) 463-7049 fax
From: wierda@ltb.ltb.bso.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NextStep 486 and misc. (was Re: Stability of Next...)
Date: 28 Aug 92 07:46:43 GMT
Organization: BSO/LT, Baarn, The Netherlands

In <1992Aug27.164814.1@capd.jhuapl.edu> waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu writes:

>In article <1972@ltb.ltb.bso.nl>, wierda@ltb.ltb.bso.nl (Gerben Wierda) writes:
>	[...material deleted...]
>> Boill Gates was in The Netherlands a couple of months ago. He claimed /NT
>> would be ``Unix-compatible''. 
>	It supports the POSIX API.  It comes with tcp/ip.  It's not UNIX
>	but there may be a fair degree of source code compatibility and a
>	reasonable amount of interoperability.  Probably enough to get
>	Bill off the hook.

I wouldn't think so. ``Open VMS'' supports POSIX. Does that make VMS ``Unix
compatible''? No way. I have tcp/ip for DOS. Does that make dos even remotely
``Unix-compatible''?

POSIX is about as useful for most real apps as a load of bricks. You don't
even have terminal-independence with POSIX! You just have terminal settings,
directory searches and the lot.

POSIX may be useful, but an app that does nothing outside POSIX is limited to
say the least.
-- 
wierda@ltb.bso.nl (Gerben Wierda) || I speak for myself and not for my employer.
(+31) 2154 84415/(+31) 35 833539  || Support the League for Programming Freedom!
	"If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."
	(Almost from) Lewis Carroll, "Alice in Wonderland".
From: asd@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Object Oriented File System: Huh??
Date: 1 Sep 92 06:40:04 GMT
Organization: Purdue University


The subject pretty much says it all.  What the hell is an Object
Oriented File System and why do we even want it?  What's so superior
about it?  Is it totally revolutionary and will make me wonder how I
got along without it (like I do about my NeXT, Engage, and Virtspace).
Will it make my life a breeze in keeping stuff organized?  With 1Gig
storage capacity, I've got to constantly try and be organized, or
loose everything.

So, as they say in the Valley, Like Huh?  Enlighten me!

-k
From: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Open Letter: Don't get rid of UNIX
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:34:00 GMT
Reply-To: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

Glenn Reid writes

[Good reasons for not dumping Unix]

First off, what's the alternative?  NT?  OS/2?  VMS?  ;-)

To paraphase:

Unix's complexity is both its biggest disadvantage and
its greatest advantage.

Sure, you could have csh and all the utilities on some
other OS (I've got them under OS/2) but they haven't been
cooked as long (it takes 3-5 years to cook and operating
system), and they're just not as solid, or they are
missing key pieces.  And you always find that out at the
wrong moment...

find * -name 'core' -exec /bin/rm {} \;

sed -e 'b look' 
    -e ':concat' 
    -e ' N' 
    -e 's/\n//g' 
    -e 't look' 
    -e ':look' 
    -e 's/\\$//g' 
    -e 't concat'
  file

make |& tee make.log

foreach file (*.pfa)
  set newfile = `echo $file | sed -e 's/\.pfa/.ps/g'`
  ln -s $file $HOMEDIR/$newfile
end

Scott Byer                             NeXTMail: byer@mv.us.adobe.com
Adobe Systems Incorporated               These are *my* opinions, and  
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900        do not necessarily reflect
Mountain View, CA 94039-7900             the opinions of my employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: john@wpa.com (John Bartley)
Subject: Re: NeXT, DTP, and Kodak Photo CD
Reply-To: john@wpa.com (John Bartley)
Organization: Workgroup Productivity Associates
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:26:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.121441.12527@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mdw@corona.att.com  
writes:
> Over in rec.photo, there is considerable discussion regarding the new
> Kodak Photo CD and Kodak's licensing arrangements for translating the
> stored images from their (proprietary) format to other formats.
> 
> They offer software for PeeCees and Mack's for a nominal fee, but the
> only Unix box they are looking at is Sun.  I know PhotoShop can read
> these CD's (again, I believe, with some nominally priced add-on).   
Does
> anyone know of plans for any of the NeXT products (e.g.: Image) to be
> able to read Kodak Photo CD's?  Is the NeXT going to be left out in
> the cold?  Will Wilbur ever get rid of that dumb parachute?  Are  
Batman
> and Robin DOOMED?

If I recall correctly, some of the demo pictures for the NeXT Color  
Printer display at NeXTWORLD Expo were from a Kodak Photo CD. I don't  
know what process was used (Mac, PC??) but somehow they ended up in a  
NeXT. Since Kodak has developed a new colorspace definition,  
calibration techniques, etc. (that I don't think are supported in 3.0)  
usage on a NeXT might be sub-optimal, even if it is possible. I've  
asked about this many times, and nobody at NeXT or Kodak has ever  
claimed to know about it. Maybe that will change as PhotoCD becomes  
more widespread.

John Bartley
From: modman@liveware.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Are there to be back to school specials???
Keywords: BLOW OUT PRICING
Date: 2 Sep 92 07:47:19 GMT
Reply-To: modman@liveware.com
Organization: Liveware Corporation   Fort Collins, CO.  USA.

In article <1SEP199221473141@zeus.tamu.edu> cjs1722@zeus.tamu.edu (STEPANIAN,  
CHRISTOPHER JOHN) writes:
> I'm more than willing to buy a NeXT, but are to be any sales or packages 
>  offered? Perhaps I should look for demo's ...
> 
> Rumors ???
> 

I was talking to Matt Moran at CSU here in Fort Fun, CO last
week.  He had machines for 60% off and more.  The color
systems where going at that price (50% + off) to clear
inventory at NeXT...  So go figure.  Get yourself a color
station if you have about 4000 bucks...

Todd
From: simsong (Simson L. Garfinkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PasteUp (was RE: NeXT, WordPerfect ...)
Date: 1 Sep 92 12:42:28 GMT
Reply-To: simsong@next.cambridge.ma.us
Organization: Simson Garfinkel and Associates, Inc.

In article <871@rtbrain.rightbrain.com> glenn@rightbrain.com (Glenn Reid)  
writes:
> Joe-Bob says "check it out".
> 
> Disclaimer: I work for RightBrain, the company who developed PasteUp,
> which disqualifies me as truly objective, but on the other hand, I'm
> pretty knowledgeable about the product :-)
> 
> --
>  Glenn Reid        		NeXTmail: glenn@rightbrain.com
>  RightBrain Software		415-326-2974 (NeXTfax 326-2977)
>  Palo Alto, California

Okay, Glenn, I'll bite.  Is it shipping?

-- 

................................................................simson
From: jbone@splat.dell.com (Jeff Bone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Open Letter: Don't get rid of UNIX
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:19:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: splat.jbone.715623560
Organization: Dell Computer Co


Clarification of something in my last message:  same DISCLAIMER applies:


I said:
>
> Now --- how about one good reason why people who feature set X
> from UNIX will buy NT to get that feature set rather than buying
> UNIX?  Your argument is flawed.
>

I meant:
 
  Now --- how about one good reason why people who *NEED* feature set X
  from UNIX will buy NT to get that feature set rather than buying
  UNIX?  Your argument is flawed.
 

Makes a little more since -w- the missing word in place. ;)  Still a
pretty nasty sentence all in all.  Point remains:  if you need UNIX,
or UNIXy features, why buy NT?  Buy UNIX, and get everything else that
UNIX offers as well...


jb


--
-- Jeff Bone ------------------------------------------------------------
      "Imagination is more important than knowledge."  - A. Einstein
------------------------------------------------------- jbone@dell.com --
                                                                       --
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Release 3.0 is shipping, as of Aug 24th. (?)
Date: 2 Sep 92 03:41:00 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <22074@galaxy.ucr.edu> mikes@velo.ucr.edu (Mike Shebanek)  
writes:
> In article <1992Aug28.210040.303@cs.sfu.ca> oneill@cs.sfu.ca (Richard  
O'Neill)  
> writes:
> > Since no-one on Usenet seemed all that sure, I thought I'd call NeXT  
and
> > ask when we might expect 3.0 to appear. I was told that it started  
'shipping'
> > on Monday, August 28th, and to expect my copy within a couple of  
weeks.
> > 
> > This could just be bullshit to appease customers, but it's what they  
say.
> 
> NS 3.0 has been shipped on new NeXT computers since August 14, 1992.   
Since  
> distribution of the NS 3.0 upgrade kits is not being handled by NeXT  
(they've  
> given the task to a professional distribution company), we should see  
the  
> upgrade kits around the second week of September.
> 
> The wait is finally over... Almost
> 

When we were at a Bindco office here in San Diego a month or so ago  
(checking out potential boxes for MetroTracks) we happened to see NeXT 3.0  
update boxes and manuals being manufactured... :)

Gordon
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Subject: Re: Those Jokers at Lighthouse......
Reply-To: sanguish@digifix.com
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 23:12:32 GMT

shawn@monitor.com writes
> just got a brochure from the lighthouse folks about Diagram!, VOID, and  
> Concurrence.  never ones to do things the 100% straight-laced way, the  
> super-fine print on the back of the brochure goes as follows:


	Yeah, we got a Concurrence flier not too long ago with the "No Pain, No  
Pain" slogan on the back.  My wife got a fantastic paper-cut while opening the  
envelope.

-- 
- Scott Anguish -
sanguish@digifix.com (NextMail)
From: prim!dave@germany.eu.net (Dave Griffiths)
Subject: Re: Open Letter: Don't get rid of UNIX
Organization: Primitive Software Ltd.
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:31:11 GMT

In article <870@rtbrain.rightbrain.com> glenn@rightbrain.com writes:
>
>My pleas is a simple one: don't abandon UNIX, and don't replace the file
>system with an object-oriented database unless it's invisible to UNIX.
>
>I don't think NeXT realizes how absolutely critical it is to have a highly
>conforming UNIX box as their underpinning. It's familiar ground for a huge
>number of programmers and users, even though it has its arcane sides.
>

Glenn, your company is one of the major NeXT developers, and presumably you
have some contacts at NeXT, so tell us: where did you get the idea that NeXT
may abandon Unix? It sounds like a rumour based on some vague throw-away 
remark of Steve Jobs.

We can all relax. NeXT will not dump Unix. Apart from being a stupid thing
to do, the sheer programming effort involved in exorcising Unix would be 
monumental. They have better things to do with their time.

Dave Griffiths
From: wierda@ltb.ltb.bso.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NextStep 486 and misc. (was Re: Stability of Next...)
Keywords: Unix Windows NT
Date: 27 Aug 92 07:35:06 GMT
Organization: BSO/LT, Baarn, The Netherlands


The only thing I have against MS is the big gap between marketing and reality.
As Borland's Philippe Kahn put it: ``The only thing object-oriented about OLE
is its name''.

Boill Gates was in The Netherlands a couple of months ago. He claimed /NT
would be ``Unix-compatible''. Now he had two interviewers talking to him that
were unable to recognize a computer, even when it goes beep in front of their
eyes (it was in a *computer* magazine(!)), but such a remark deserves
scrutiny.

Other things like buggy software (MSC comes to mind) are more or less repaired
by having a very good wordprocessor package in the PC/MAc market.

Just my unworthy comment.
-- 
wierda@ltb.bso.nl (Gerben Wierda) || I speak for myself and not for my employer.
(+31) 2154 84415/(+31) 35 833539  || Support the League for Programming Freedom!
	"If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."
	(Almost from) Lewis Carroll, "Alice in Wonderland".
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu
Subject: Re: Is BSD dead? 
Organization: CAPVAX, JHU/APL
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:25:30 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.234159.9790@nic.umass.edu>, a74k110@titan.ucc.umass.edu 
(Chris Lloyd) writes:
	[...material deleted...]
> As to whether it matters if NeXTSTEP is on top of Mach/BSD is a big YES.
> The AppKit is engrained HEAVILY in Unix and Mach (moreso), IBM had problems
> putting NeXTSTEP on AIX back in 1.0 days, 2.0 and 3.0 are *entrenched* in
	I would guess that the lack of threads in AIX must have been a good
	part of IBM's trouble.
> Mach and Unix. I really do laugh at people saying "Oh yea, just put it on
> NT or SYSV, whats the big deal?",
	I'd be a bit amused as well at anyone who thought it would be easy.  I
	do argue that it's vital to NeXTSTEP's prosperity and perhaps survival
	to move NeXTSTEP to NT.  But as you say,
> the system is massive, and there are a lot
> of apps out there, moves to another OS cause enormous problems when features
> aren't the same, dont behave the same or just aren't there.
> 
> Yea, NT, Chorus/SYSV and Mach/BSD are fundamentally the same at a very high
> level, but putting NeXTSTEP on the first two is like putting a Mercedes
> body on a '68 Chevy, they are both cars, but there is a hell of a lot more
> to do than just bolt two big parts together, if they even fit.
	Nice analogy.  I hope it's that easy ;^)  If NeXTSTEP was written with
	portability in mind, the effort might not be of heroic proportions.  If
	not, well...  But even if NeXTSTEP goes OK, let's not overlook Display
	PostScript.  Maybe a joint effort with Adobe?  After all, it's a nice
	market for them.  Maybe eventually DPS in hardware.
	[...]

	As always, opinions expressed are my own.

_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_ _/      _/      _/ _/     _/   _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/
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_/       _/_/_/    _/  _/  _/  _/ _/_/_/   _/       _/     _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/
_/  Internet: <waltrip@capsrv.jhuapl.edu>  _/       _/     _/  _/   _/ _/
_/_/_/_/ _/          _/      _/ _/      _/ _/_/_/_/ _/     _/    _/ _/ _/








Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: randy@appsoft.com (Randy Adams)
Subject: Re: NeXT, WordPerfect, WriteNow, Nisus, etc.
Keywords: PhotoShop Appsoft
Reply-To: randy@appsoft.com
Organization: Appsoft, Inc.
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 02:25:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.172016.21686@adobe.com> byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)  
writes:
> Only thing I'm missing is PhotoShop. :-(

Not for long.  We're shipping Appsoft Image in 6 weeks (really!) and then you  
won't be missing anything.  

Randy Adams
appsoft.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: Those Jokers at Lighthouse......
Reply-To: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 18:13:31 GMT

In article <Bt949n.9s4@monitor.com> shawn@monitor.com writes:
> just got a brochure from the lighthouse folks about Diagram!, VOID, and  
> Concurrence.  never ones to do things the 100% straight-laced way, the  
> super-fine print on the back of the brochure goes as follows:
> [amusing notice deleted]

This is also part of their "SteamRoller" campaign:
"If you're not part of the Steamroller,
You're part of the Asphalt"
[their latest T-shirt]

Hmm, I wonder who they're referring to...

- Ernie P.

--
Ernest N. Prabhakar                  Caltech High Energy Physics
Member, League for Programming Freedom (league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
CaJUN President        NeXTMail:ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu
"...and ourselves, your servants for Jesus sake." - II Cor 4:5b
#import <std/disclaimer.h>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy