HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk (Chris Holt)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Wage Slavery
Date: 16 Apr 92 20:35:42 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU

nelson_p@APOLLO.HP.COM writes:
>From: kent@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov (Kent J Crispin)

>>WHY do you think that "culture and community" have declined?

>  To ask what caused the breakdown we have to look at how cultural
>  values are maintained and transmitted to subsequent generations.
>  I would suggest that the major institutions are:

>    Family.

>    Community (i.e., those individuals with whom you interact
>    regularly and share close, interdependent relationship)

>    Ethnic and religious identity.  Tradition, custom, religious
>    teaching, etc, help people define "right" and "wrong", define
>    roles, goals, aspirations, reponses to crises and problems, etc.

This maps reasonably well to fundamental human motivations: acting
for self, helping close friends, being nice to acquaintances, and
trying to preserve the overall structure of society.

        [discussion of how the relationships among these institutions
        have been attenuated]

>  The cultural changes which have occured in our society have been
>  the result of industrialization and technology.  The government
>  didn't do this.

Yes and no.  The government responded to social factors, but by
so doing became an important social factor.  In fact, one of the
most pernicious elements affecting people's judgements is the
illusion of choice.  If people are given fifteen alternatives
with regard to things that don't matter, they are less likely to
worry/care about the lack of choice with regard to things that
are important.  If you give people a choice of 15 different beers
to drink, they don't notice (so much) that they are all lager,
rather than bitter or stout.  Government institutions are similar,
in that (in long-term, stable democracies) choices become ritualized
and far less meaningful.

So although governments don't cause breakdowns, they can passively
acquiesce in the reduction of awareness that encourages them.

>  Libertarians fantasize that if only the government were gone
>  all these old institutions would return.  They fail to grasp
>  that it was industrialization, technology, mobility, etc, which
>  did away with those old institutions, not government.

Furthermore, even though government is a large social structure
that preserves the deteriorating status quo, its removal would
only lead to faster deterioration.  The question is whether it
has so much inertia that collapse followed by revolution is the
only possible way of introducing change.  If so, it seems a
remarkably inefficient mechanism (would you really want your
water company to go bankrupt and stop supplying water?).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk      Computing Lab, U of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        "The intellect is always fooled by superficial simplicity."
From: kent@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov (Kent J Crispin)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Libertarians, slaves and company towns
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:24:20 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab.

In article <46196@dime.cs.umass.edu> yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes,
in response to my comment about the "reasonable person" test in law:
>Reasonable people might disagree. And what is reasonable one year: e.g., that
>a slaveowner's property must be returned to him, is grossly immoral the next. 

That's true, and an implied part of the "reasonable person" test.  It is 
implicitly a subjective standard.

>As you might say, "to live outside the law you must be honest", 

or, as Dylan said "you've got to be honest to be free...".

>but it seems that
>"liberarians" are not honestly facing the role of the state in their proposed 
>entreprenuers paradise.

Were you quoting an earlier typo, or what? :-)  If it's "libertarians" I agree.

>yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu

Kwnr, er, Kent


--
Kent Crispin				"No need to get excited",
kent@ocfmail.ocf.llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke....
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory	<Standard disclaimer>
From: p635mad@fs1.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Martin Diewald)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Communitarians
Date: 9 Apr 92 10:44:25 GMT
Organization: Max Planck Institut fuer Radioastronomie

Hello there !

I've read somewhere about a new school of philosophy, sociology and
economics which refer to themselves as 'Communitarians'. I've also
read (in the German weekly 'Die Zeit') that these people's views 
are in sharp contrast to the free market capitalism ideology of the
80s. The same article was refering to a book by Etzioni whose title
was only given in German and would be something like "The moral
dimension" in a straightforward translation. My question is: Could
someone please tell me what this is all about and possibly recommend
some introductory reading to me?!

Thanks in advance!!
  
                      Martin Diewald
.
From: tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Health Care (was Gasoline Tax)
Date: 6 Apr 92 22:40:08 GMT
Reply-To: tucker@shiva.hac.com (George Tucker)
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

In article <9204031905.AA21316@xuucp.ch.apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com writes:
>
>  I think that sooner or later we'll have some kind of national health
>  insurance in the US because this is an issue which is really pissing 
>  people off.  There's a new strain of TB circulating out there which
>  is drug-resistant and costs $100K a patient to treat (and even that
>  only has a 50% survival rate).  Unlike a disease such as AIDS, TB 
>  *IS* spread by casual contact so this will spread like wildfire, 
>  especially in the cities.   Blue Cross in Massachusetts just ap-
>  plied for a 40% increase in individual coverage rates and with more
>....
>  National health insurance will bankrupt us if we don't get a
>  handle on costs.   If only we had a science of economics we

No national health care system is going to take care of a major epidemic
that costs $100K per patient.  That includes AIDS if it affects
millions.  ($100K in 1992 dollars)  The downfall of any system 
in the US is that the "right to life" fascists and the geriatric lobby
and the bleeding heart liberals will not allow a rational cost/benefit
analysis.  Some people - newborn, young, middle-age, and old - who
could theoretically be saved by ridiculously expensive procedures with
a low success rate are going to have to be allowed to die unless they
can pay the cost themselves. 

If the liberals got control and somehow did control costs (chuckle),
they would probably prohibit any operation for the rich that the national
scheme would not provide to the poor.  If the other gang got control,
they wouldn't even try to make it succeed.

You would need something at LEAST as apolitical as the Federal Reserve
running the system.  Perhaps give the top brass guaranteed lifetime
salary and immunity from all lawsuits, and let a group in some more 
rational country provide an expert system that will determine what
conditions and procedures are covered.  Still it would be
corrupted unless some competitive element can be preserved.  Innovation
will certainly die since it is generally detrimental to political
contributors.  

	George Tucker        tucker@kali.hac.com
		Just say NO to incumbents.
From: drg@bubba.ma30.bull.com (Daniel R Guilderson)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Libertarians, slaves and company towns
Date: 17 Apr 92 18:28:27 GMT
	<JACKSON.92Apr17090917@kaos.stsci.edu> <46727@dime.cs.umass.edu>
Organization: Bull World Wide Information Systems, Billerica MA USA

In article <46727@dime.cs.umass.edu> yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:

   [How much wealth was obtained through violence and deceit?]

   Being generous, let's say that only 50% of the real-estate and 50%
   of the mineral wealth was out and out stolen from the previous
   inhabitants (gross underestimate).  Factor in the wealth from
   slavery and slave trading, the wealth that the oil companies got
   when out tax dollars were used to put the Shah in power, protect
   Exxon's tankers, and keep the Saudi's on their thrones. Toss in the
   padding of the "defense" contracts over the last 30 years.
   [...and so on...]

This is getting ridiculous.  Why not factor in the wealth lost due to
the Romans enslaving Christians?  Adjusted for inflation, the
Christians are probably due the entire wealth of the planet.  But wait
a sec...what about the Summarians?  The neanderthals?  Apes? ...

What is the point?
From: dletcher@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Drew Letcher)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Iowa Political Stock Market
Date: 9 Apr 92 15:44:29 GMT
Organization: U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA


ANNOUNCING:       THE IOWA POLITICAL STOCK MARKET  (IPSM)

Here's a chance to put your money where your mouth is!

The IPSM is a real (non-profit) securities market exchange.  Where people
can invest from $5-$500 and trade in political candidates.  The premise
we are trying to prove is that a stock market where people have money
on the line will be more accurate in predicting election outcomes than
the opinion polls you see in the news media.

There are currently two different markets one for the Democratic Primary
and one for the November Presidential Election.  The current prices in US$
as of Wednesday April 8, 1992 are:

DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY                   PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
                                     Bush                0.501
Clinton         0.904                Clinton             0.405
Brown           0.008                Brown               0.008
Tsongas         0.025                Tsongas             0.033
Rest of Field   0.050                Rest of Democrats   0.037

(The prices can be interpreted as percentages by multiplying by 100.)

TELNET ACCESS TO THE IPSM:

To see the current prices and to check out the IPSM trading program you can
telnet to the following Internet address:

     IPSM.BIZ.UIOWA.EDU   128.255.44.2

After you connect just follow the prompts.  You'll need a full screen
terminal such as a VT100.  The IPSM supports over 30 different terminal
types.  For more information write or call to the following address.

IPSM
556 Phillips Hall
University of Iowa          phone: (319) 335-0881
Iowa City, IA  52242        email: ipsm@scout-po.biz.uiowa.edu
From: drg@bubba.ma30.bull.com (Daniel R Guilderson)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: "Government is the herdsman"
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:43:23 GMT
Organization: Bull World Wide Information Systems, Billerica MA USA

In article <9204081517.AA02305@xuucp.ch.apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@APOLLO.HP.COM writes:

   >  "Reagan Was Right: Government Is the Problem"
   >  by Charlton Heston

      This is ridiculous, and only illustrates the extent to which
      romantic emotionalism allows libertarians and their ilk to
      substitute simplistic slogans for reason.

Duh, Heston is a conservative.

      [Misguided rants about libertarians deleted.]

The REAL problem isn't government at all.  The REAL problem is cattle.
There are too many cows running around masquerading as citizens.  Cows
hate liberty. Haven't you ever been walking down the street and heard
the MOOING?  MOO MOO.  MOOOOOO.

It's the fucking cows.
From: nelson_p@APOLLO.HP.COM
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Chartism -- charlatans?
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:32:03 GMT


  A small correction to an earlier posting of mine:


>PS -- BTW I have run simulations on my PC with a (weekly)
>      DJIA database and a large array (typically 4000-8000)
>      of stock pickers with all their parameters initialized
>      with random numbers.  The interesting thing is how, while
>      the majority will lose money very quickly, a small
>      percentage will "beat the market" for years on end.
    

  The majority do not lose money, per se, they fail to make
  make money.  A plurality roughly track the index. 

  What I found interesting about this simulation was that using
  a variety of simple algorithms, and weighting the parameters 
  of those algorithms with random numbers, I could roughly
  duplicate the performance of real, flesh-and-blood stock
  market analysts, i.e., a large distribution about the center
  with a tailing numbers who consistently under- or over-
  perform the market.   But that "consistency" appears to be
  a probabalistic phenomenon without any predictive value.
 
  Note: care is required in interpreting the results:  if
  I start flipping 1000 coins and deem a "winning" coin one
  which flips more heads than tails, after 5 flips there
  will be some 31 coins which have flipped 5 heads in a row,
  and a larger number still which have flipped 4 heads out
  of the five flips.  If we deem these "winners" and continue
  to flip all 1000 coins another 5 times, the winners will
  still be ahead of the average if they merely perform average
  (1:1) in the second 5 flips.  This will give the *appearance*
  of consistency and we see this in ads in the WSJ :   Any 
  company which had one winning steak in a ten year period 
  and merely matched the Dow or S&P 500 the rest of the time
  can claim "above average" 10 year performance, which is 
  TRUE, but not predictive.    


---peter
From: arg@huxley.bitstream.com (Adam R. Grossman)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Capital Gains - Wrong Victim
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:47:13 GMT
Reply-To: arg@bitstream.com
Organization: Bitstream, Inc. - Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: steiny@steiny.UUCP's message of 5 Apr 92 17:21:10 GMT

In article <60@steiny.UUCP> steiny@steiny.UUCP (Don Steiny) writes:
   Newsgroups: sci.econ
   Date: 5 Apr 92 17:21:10 GMT

   The media and politicians talk about lowering the capital gains rates as
   a "tax break for the rich." But who are these "rich"?  Well, my [middle
   class -arg] parents.

   [...story about how the capital gains tax hurts these people...]

   The capital gains tax is a tax on everyone mostly on the middle class.

This anecdote is just that... an anecdote.

Compared to, say, a lowering of state sales tax, gasoline tax, alcohol tax,
cigarette tax,  raising of the 15%  or 28% federal brackets,  or increasing
the personal exemptions,  lowering the capital  gains tax is certainly much
more beneficial to the rich.

Of course, this doesn't mean it is a bad idea...
--
Adam R. Grossman
arg@bitstream.com
From: jackson@kaos.stsci.edu (Bob Jackson)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Libertarians, slaves and company towns
Date: 17 Apr 92 14:09:17 GMT
	<1992Apr16.012852.3511@clipper.ingr.com> <46652@dime.cs.umass.edu>
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute

And Victor said:

In my naive opinion, the current distribution of wealth in the US, as in other
nations, is in no way the result of voluntary contracts, but is largely the
result of violence and deceit.

And I wondered:

What is the current distribution of wealth?
I would like to see some numbers which factor in:
	Pension fund assets being owned by the current and future pensioners
	Corporation, mutual funds, etc., assets being owned by the shareholders
	Bank assets being owned by the stockholders and depositors
	...
What fraction of the wealth was acquired by violence and deceit?
	What is the criteria for determining that an economic transaction 
	is non-violent and non-deceitful?
From: kent@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov (Kent J Crispin)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Wage Slavery
Date: 15 Apr 92 21:59:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: lll-wink.122639
Organization: Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab.

In article <9204151928.AA09431@xuucp.ch.apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@APOLLO.HP.COM writes:
[long discussion deleted]
>  And Mr. Yodaiken is correct IMHO that it is our money which
>  allows us in the middle class to compensate somewhat for this.
>  If I lost my job and house I doubt very much that my neighbors
>  would take me in, but I'm rich enough to have money in the 
>  bank and maintain marketable skills, etc.   So I'm not arguing
>  that, say, poor blacks, are unique in the breakdown of culture
>  and community in 1992.  I'm just saying that THAT is the problem
>  and government can't fix something like that.

It just doesn't make sense to me to say that the breakdown of culture
and community is the problem, because I immediately wonder what caused
the breakdown.  IMHO, a breakdown in this context has to be considered a
symptom, not the disease.  Government can't fix something like that directly,
it's true.  But it simply doesn't follow that government couldn't fix 
something else that would in turn cause an improvement in community spirit
etc.  Laying the blame on a whisp like "lack of culture and community"
is, well, disingenuous or shallow.  Surely you can do better than that.
WHY do you think that "culture and community" have declined?

>---peter

Kent


--
Kent Crispin				"No need to get excited",
kent@ocfmail.ocf.llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke....
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory	<Standard disclaimer>
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis)
Subject: Re: Inventors
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 19:03:09 GMT

In article <2wy1iB1w164w@netlink.cts.com> jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery) writes:
>From a technological/economic progress standpoint, the ripoff of
>inventors by capital is qualitatively different from that of 
>laborers.
> 
>When a laborer enters the job market, he can switch from job
>to job anytime he likes.  His "product" is a continuous stream
>in a highly competitive market.  Normal market forces are far
>more efficient at discovering his true worth and if he is ripped
>off, it is only temporary.  He can always walk.

I do not know enough to comment on Mr. Bowery's subsequent comments
outling the sorry story of dedicated inventors facing capital
concentration. I do know enough, however, to say that the above
paragraph is bunk.

There are some labor markets where no skill is expected of prospective
applicants; such work frequently does not pay enough to live in a way
that other social incentives deem desirable. Most labor markets,
however, assume as a minimum a decent high school education; many
require much more specific skills than this. Frequently such skills
are not transferable, even if they can be learnt at low cost to the
learner.

Can I walk from my job ? Well, if the state of the unix systems
software market in Seattle is OK, probably. If not, I would have to
take into consideration its state elsewhere, moving costs, and a
move's effect on my resume (try borrowing money with high employer
turnover). I may also have to consider the costs and benefits of
switching careers (say, to take up my goal of becoming an organic
farmer), in which I abandon most or all of my previously acquired
skills and return to apprenticehood.

There are very likely differences between inventors and laborers, and
the way in which a market treats them. Mr. Bowery's glib and
simplistic description of the situation faced by labor hardly deserves
to be on sci.econ.

-- paul


-- 
"what various paths are followed in distributing honors & possessions" 
Computer Science Lab, University of Washington 	<pauld@cs.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: jackson@kaos.stsci.edu (Bob Jackson)
Subject: Re: Capital 'R us
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
	<JACKSON.92Apr13062942@kaos.stsci.edu> <46470@dime.cs.umass.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 16:12:50 GMT

Can you describe who will and who will not live with the
"consequences" of the investment decisions?

I can imagine many investment decisions which have global
consequences.  Who decides then?
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: drg@bubba.ma30.bull.com (Daniel R Guilderson)
Subject: Re: Libertarianism and Government
Organization: Bull World Wide Information Systems, Billerica MA USA
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:32:04
	<1992Apr9.233020.16418@odin.corp.sgi.com> <46349@dime.cs.umass.edu>

In article <46349@dime.cs.umass.edu> yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:

   Here's Kropotkin for those who believe that going into a public
   library might damage the free market:
	   ... The same house built in the middle of 
	   Siberia would not have the value it possesses in a large town, and,
	   as we know, that value arises from the labor of something like 50
	   generations of men who have built the town, beautified it, supplied
	   it with water and gas, fine promenades, colleges, theatres, shops,
	   railways and roads leading in all directions. Thus, by recognizing
	   the right of Mr. So-and-So to a particular house in Paris,London, or
	   Rouen, the law is unjustly appropriating to him a certain portion of
	   the produce of the labor of mankind in general. And it is precisley
	   because this appropriation and all other forms of property bearing
	   the same chaaracter are a crying injustice, that a whole arsenal of
	   laws and a whole army of soldiers, policemen, and judges are needed
	   to maintain it against the good sense and just feeling inherent in
	   humanity. (from Law and Authority 1886)

Well then, are the 50 generations of men who built the town
responsible for its devaluation due to over-development and pollution?
I would value a nice clean acre of property in Alaska more than an
acre on a toxic waste dump in New York city.  The communists are happy
until they find out how much it's going to cost to clean up the mess.
It's then that they want to be capitalists.
From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Wage Slavery (Was: BIG LIE about the market)
Date: 16 Apr 92 00:48:27 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <DRG.92Apr15154749@bubba.ma30.bull.com> drg@bubba.ma30.bull.com (Daniel R Guilderson) writes:
>In article <46586@dime.cs.umass.edu> yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:
>
>   But, I don't think that, for the middle class, this moral collapse
>   is due to some mysterious "cultural" problem, rather it is a result
>   of the increasingly precarious position of the middle class in an
>   economy which is being guided to classic third world palace/hovel
>   structuring.
>
>The economy is being guided by a government structure which was never
>designed to guide economies.  Those of you who would like the
>government to guide the economy should vote for a king.  Those of you
>who would like the economy to be guided by markets should vote for a
>Libertarian.  Those of you who are not sure should move to Canada.

"markets", above, is a euphemism for "the rich and powerful". Your
belief that a "market" is a supernatural force is testimony to the power
of unexamined beliefs.




-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu

Xref: sparky sci.econ:3731 misc.invest:6791
From: antonio@qualcomm.com (Franklin Antonio)
Newsgroups: sci.econ,misc.invest
Subject: Re: Black Scholes pricing
Date: 14 Apr 92 09:10:51 GMT
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA

In article <c4phbjjt@csv.warwick.ac.uk> mausb@warwick.ac.uk writes:
>Can anyone explain to me how the Black Scholes derivative securities
>pricing formula is derived, I think it uses Ito's lemma/formula but I don't
>know what this is.
>
See the original article...

The Pricing of Options and Corporate Liabilities, by Fischer Black and
Myron Scholes, Journal of Political Economy, 81, 637-654.  Contains the
derivation, and is probably on the shelf in your nearby univ. library.

Ito's lemma is also known as the fundamental theorem of stochastic calculus.
The original BS article does not mention Ito's lemma by name.

A readable quicky intro to Ito's lemma and the BS derivation can be found
in Appendix A to Chapter 3 of Financial Options, From Theory to Practice,
by Figlewski, Silber, and Subrahmanyam, 1990, pub by Business One Irwin,
of Homewood Illinois.  Also says New York University on the cover.
This is a reasonably good up-to-date book on option models & related stuff.
I found it in a general purpose bookstore.