From: "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: golf shoes
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 08:31:25 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>   Isaac Kim <kim@guppy.uucp>
>
>Personally, I don't care if you wear golf shoes or not (as long as
>you don't drag your feet and am not playing in front of me).  I was 
>just responding to your rather outlandish comment:
> 
>=>>>Do you need golf shoes?  Absolutely, positively, without a doubt, yes 
>=>>>you do.
>
>I disagree with you.  Golf shoes are not necessary to play good
>golf.  They are nice when it is wet outside, but in most cases, you can 
>get just as good traction with a pair of Nike cross-trainers.

You are right.  You don't need them.  I was wrong.  In the context in which
the question was asked,  I did overstate my position on this.  But I
still think that players should wear golf shoes.  I believe my recommendation
was meant more as a relative truth than the absolute dictum that it
turned out to be.  Can most players do better with golf shoes?  I think
they can, and you think that they are not worth the bother.  So be it.

[...]
>
>
>Again, if you want to wear golf shoes, go ahead.  I don't care.  Just 

You seem not only to care, but have decided that golf shoes are at the
core of bad golf..

[...]
>that in many cases golf shoes allow you to transfer your weight back 
>past the inside of your left foot (if you golf right-handed) at the 
>top of your backswing - resulting in too much sway.  On the downswing, 
>golf shoes also allow you to swing at a tempo that might be too fast, 
>resulting in an unbalanced swing, and a poorly hit shot.  I'm not saying 
>this happens all the time, but it is something to think about if you 
>have weight shift problems or an unbalanced finish.
>
>
>Actually, the Nike cross-trainers I have have a very shallow sole pattern
>compared to spikeless golf shoes.  The sole is also much softer (almost 
>like eraser rubber) than what is found on the spikeless golf shoes I have 
>seen.
>

Shortly, I intend to start a 5-part post on golf etiquette. 
One of the sections will deal with
respect for the course.  As you may have noticed in the side posts to this
thread, it has been at least suggested (I have partially confirmed, but the
issue is not yet decided) that spikeless shoes do more damage (for a variety
of reasons) than spiked.  It has also been claimed in reverse.  We need
more input.  As also has been noted, the caddies on the tour do not wear golf
shoes, so I would say you are probably right in your assessment of the
damage caused by your shoes.  I probably do more damage with spikes.


>

>I think a better definition of sandbagging is someone shooting a 69,
>claiming to be a 5.
>

It took me down to a 3 and I wasn't playing for stakes or in a tournament.
I turn in every score I shoot, and I always shoot the best score I can.
I apologize for the insult.  Besides, nobody would let me actually play 
to a 5, anyhow, not for money.  I've been around here too long.

>
>DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT IF SOMEONE DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A GOLFER
>HE OR SHE WILL NOT BEHAVE LIKE A GOLFER.  Wow!  There is a word
>for people who judge someone just on their appearence.  It escapes
>me right now.  

Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised, but normally they do not. Sorry.
Of course there is no guarantee that a well-dressed golfer will be any
more than a complete asshole and a basket case to boot, but that's usually
not the case.  Personally, I play much more with total beginners and high
handicappers than with low handicappers.  At least 90% of my rounds
have at least one female, usually two, in the group.  I used to play with
my mother a dozen times for every once I played with my father, too.

>
>I can't believe that just because someone has no golf shoes and a 
>"bad bag", you assume that they don't have any knowledge about golf
>etiquette?

I didn't.  The Mayor did.  I play with anybody at all.  As a side issue,
I personally play in a button down white, yellow or blue long-sleeved 
dress shirt because of the sun damage to my skin.  I frequently wear
a pith helment, too.  Besides a couple of suits, the only slacks I own are
some cheap corduroys (winter) and Dickey's khaki work pants (spring/fall)
and some cheap lightweight slacks for summer. I have a total of 10 pairs 
of pants for the entire year.  All my jeans are threadbare.
I haven't bought a pair of pants in 2 years, because I can't afford clothes.
I am considered a joke at the course (they don't
laugh at the way I hit a golf ball, however) the way I dress.  When I do
show up suitably attired (for tournaments) I get a lot of ribbing.
When I wear the panama, they ask me for my green card.  8^)

>
>Maybe you have grown in the sheltered life of a country club.

Never been a member of private club.  I have played on a handful of
private courses in my life, mostly in tournaments, viz. 
Elizabeth Manor in Portsmouth, Va. (Eastern Amateur), 
Farmington CC (Golf team, UVa home course),
Teugeca CC, Rome NY (I get invited about once a year (not this)),
Yanendahsus CC, Utica NY (1976 once on an invite),
Golden Horseshoe, Williamsburg (W&Mary student -- not sure it was private)
(Used to see the Strange twins banging it around.  They were famous in '64)
Atlanta Country (or Athletic, can't remember - '73) Club -- once.

I have played St. Andrews (not private, once -age 11 (father stationed in UK),
my first full 18 holes - my father ordered me to play - I did not want to.)

Pebble Beach (1966, once, not private )

I currently play Rome CC, a public golf course with one goal in mind - money.
The course is poorly maintained by a skeleton crew of 3-4 general workers.
This is sad since it was once a fine golf course.  The slope is 1.26
from the blues, 1.22 from the whites.  Sometimes I play the reds. 8^)

>Then again, I'm surprised your country club would allow someone to 
>grace their links without golf shoes.  I have spent my golfing

[...]

My club allows people to play nude, just so long as they come up with
the greens fee.  There are no limits, no restrictions, no time slots
or anything.  The "members" don't get any preferential treatment, just
a break for paying their green fees in advance.  About the only dichotomy
is that there is a separate Womens and Mens club championship and
the bathrooms are labeled.

>=>makes you think I want the course to be overrun with egalitarian 
>=>idealists wearing bodyshirts?  (This is called a straw man in logical
>
>I guess we should keep golf only for those who conform.  BTW does
>your club allow minorities or women?
> 
>=>playing ability.  The word "judgmental" springs to the lips.

Playing ability has nothing to do with it.  It's whether they tear up 
the golf course or not, first, and second, whether they do things like 
hover over me waiting to replace the flagstick while I try to knock in 
a 2-footer, or directly behind my line while I'm hitting my tee shot.  
I almost never say a word, BTW, just casually stroke it into the trees
as I take my eye off the ball.  "Forgive them.  They know not what they do."

>
>Thats the word I was looking for before.  Thanks. 
>              
>Again, if you are rich, go ahead and buy what ever you want.  I 

Just to clear this up, and I'm not being indignant or anything, but I'm
barely even middle class.  I'm unemployed, and at 50, pretty much 
unemployable.  I did not join the course this year because I can't 
afford it.  As for my golf shoes, I bought them at the Dexter outlet
for $42, probably less than you spent for your Nikes.  As for buying
one pair a year, I wear out a pair a year, I just average it over 1
new, 1 semi-new and 1 junky pair.  I would like a new pair of FJs,
but I can't afford them, even though I could get a pair for a little
under $100.  I have no assets other than the equity in my home, about
$25000.  Not much to show for a life, eh?  I hope you do a lot better.
How do I afford $30 a month for internet access?  An addiction is its
own justification. I just don't eat.  8^)

>
>Again, spend away if want to, but just don't think or act you are 
>better then the rest of us.  And please don't be so "judgemental"
>with golfers who don't look like golfers. 

Actually, I like to play with novice golfers, because I get as much out of
teaching the game as playing it.  I also like to play for stakes,
but that's pretty much limited to tournaments and scrambles (team
side bets), these days.  I frequently am turned down as a fourth
because "You're too good.  We'd just slow you down.  You'd make us nervous."
I always feel really bad when that happens, but they never give it thought.
I never say no to anybody, period.  And, no, I don't give advice of any
kind unless asked, and usually even then, I wait until the round is over
and I can go to the range or talk about it over a few beers.

[...]
>
>
>I have to admit that many of my golf purchase decisions are based on the
>fact that I don't have very much money as a graduate student.  I really
>look forward to the day I do get a well paying job, so I can buy a
>new Jones carry bag, new Hogan blades (my present grooves are getting 
>pretty worn down), and maybe Maxfli balata golf balls for every round.
>But I will not buy golf shoes, because they are just not necessary.  
>
>
>Happy Holidays to all,
>Isaac (kim@bull.ucsd.edu)
>

Well, Isaac, in the spirit of the season, I have tried to be very pleasant
this time.  I hope you can forgive me for flying off the handle.  A
man my age should know better.  Perhaps you would have more sympathy for
my position if you knew where I'm coming from, here.  

I learned at Savannah Muny during the late '50s.  Juniors were not allowed
on the course before 3 PM unless they were with an "approved" adult
player, i.e. somebody who was known to be player.  We were taught the
etiquette of the game.  Those of us who caddied were allowed to play on
Tuesday all day for free if we caddied during the previous week.  
We learned the etiquette of golf from the caddymaster, an old black guy.
Everyone knew the niceties of etiquette.  Golf was a civilized game, even
among the riff-raff, like us.  That is no longer the case, hence my
body-shirt analogy.  Most of the players at my club do not repair ball
marks, they take practice divots out of the fairways and tees, they
tear up the cups, they scream back and forth across the fairways, they
seem to be unable to hit a shot without the entire foursome in attendance,
they add their scores while standing on the green, they are INFURIATING.
They are ignorant or indifferent, being mostly low life peasants like me,
but the difference is that they have never played with anyone who has 
learned golf etiquette.  They have no conception of what golf really is,
according to the old-fashioned values that I have for how it should be
played.  By that I do not mean technically -- I mean knowing where to
stand, step, and when to keep still and how to keep moving.  When I
was young, virtually everyone knew these things, but now almost no one
does.  Golfers learn in the leagues or among themselves, and if anyone even
suggests they might be doing something rude golfing-wise, they puff up 
into the American Ideal that no behavior, no matter how offensive, can 
be questioned because I'm an American with rights and golf is just a 
stupid game anyhow, and what makes you so hoity-toity, and I ought to 
punch you in the mouth, I can talk all the time because my name is John 
Wayne and I like football better because it isn't loaded down with pansy 
asses like you.  So I just keep my mouth shut on the course, even when 
they're digging large chunks out of the green with their putters in fits 
of rage.  

Am I a prude about this?  Yes, I guess I am.  I see the game
now passed to a "fun" crowd, who do not care if they improve, who do
not care about disturbing the other players, who feel that since they
have payed their greens fees they have a right to stay on one hole for
an hour if they feel like it, the rest of the people waiting behind them
be damned.  When they finish the round, they watch the baseball or
basketball games on TV, not the golf tournaments.  What they really
want to do at the golf course is drink beer and ride the carts.  Golf
is secondary, and the idiots who think decorum belongs on the golf course
are from another time zone, and indeed,  that is true.  Those who take
golf seriously are just old tightasses who can't enjoy themselves.  By not
looking like a golfer, one makes the statement that the traditions of the
game are no more than a pale history of lesser times, or worse, the mark
of the imperious capitalist usurpers of the underclass.  And none of it
has anything to do with golf shoes, really.  And even I don't look like
a golfer most of the time, until you see me swing the club.

BTW, I carry my own bag, and will continue to do so until I can't walk
any more.  I think carts should be banned except for invalids.

I think your way of thinking has won the day, at least at my course.
Golf is not very special any more.  As has been noted on the sidebar
of this thread, I have also overstated my case (as usual) with regard
to who is polite and takes care of the course as a function of golf shoes.
Let me restate it:  the most courteous, considerate players of whom I
am aware, all wear golf shoes, but then they all have very low or 
non-existent handicaps.  They know the game backward and forward.  Golf
shoes have absolutely nothing to do with it.

  ,...,.,,
 /666;    ',    jim tims
////;    _~ -   p00168@psilink.com
(/@/----0-~-0
 ;'  . `` ~ \'
  , `    ' , >
;;|\..((   -C---->> I yield to youth, Isaac.  Golf shoes are passe.
;;| >-  `.__),;;    I apologize to all. Sometimes at 4 AM I'm not quite sane.


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