From: matt@smoke.brl.mil (Matthew Rosenblatt)
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Subject: Re: Noriega Trial Implications
Summary: If "wrong" doesn't exist, why was it "wrong" to try Noriega?
Keywords: FEMINISMUS DELENDUS EST
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:20:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: smoke.18491
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.

In article <26544@hydra.Helsinki.FI> jokiniem@cs.Helsinki.FI (Jari Jokiniemi) 
writes:

>In article <18482@smoke.brl.mil> matt@smoke.brl.mil (Matthew Rosenblatt) 
>writes:

>>"Right" and "wrong" exist independently of any particular system of
>>positive law.  There are plenty of areas, especially where it concerns
>>the family as the basic building block of society, where "US law and 
>>justice" are off track compared to Islamic (with a capital "I") law 
>>and justice.   [Matt Rosenblatt]

>Oh, it would be very interesting to see a proof of the claim that
>"right" and "wrong" exist independently of any particular system of
>positive law. There are indeed many forms of behaviour that almost all
>of the people in the world agree to be "wrong", i.e. killing somebody
>for no reason at all. But there are also many forms of behaviour 
>that some people think to be "right" and some others think to be
>"wrong". If the claim was right, one should be able to tell whether or
>not to do something is "right" or "wrong" according to some absolute
>truth which is independent of the law of any country in the world.
. . .
>. . . I would 
>like to see the proof of the existence of "right" and "wrong"
>without any reference to any religion.   [Jari Jokiniemi]

This is not a new question; it has been debated for thousands of years,
since the days of the ancient Greek philosophers, and we are not going
to solve it here on misc.legal.

Professor Charles E. Rice of the University of Notre Dame has written:

   "Christopher Derrick once said the basic question is whether 'pigs
  is pigs.'  Are we capable of knowing what makes a pig a pig?  Can 
  we know that there is a difference in essence and species between 
  a pig and a horse?  Or is the word 'pig' merely an arbitrary term 
  we use to describe this particular animal, which, for all we know, 
  may some day evolve into a horse?  'Pig' is an abstract idea, 
  expressing the concept which describes all members of that species.
  'Justice' is also an abstract idea.  Can we know what is just and 
  what is unjust?  Are some actions always unjust, no matter what the
  subjective culpability or lack of it of the person who performs them?
  Is there an objective order, according to which some acts will always 
  be 'just,' in the same way that some animals will always be members 
  of the species we call 'pigs'?  Can we really know that objective 
  order?  . . .

   "Positivism denies the power of the intellect to know truth.
  Because no one can know what is right or wrong, it leaves the
  resolution of such questions to the state."

So, suppose that I am mistaken, and that the positivists are correct.
Suppose that "right" and "wrong" do not exist independently of any
particular system of positive law.  Suppose that "the resolution
of such questions," in Professor Rice's words, is left "to the state."

Suppose further that on appeal, the highest judicial authority of the
United States of America, viz., our Supreme Court, rules that the actions
of the Executive Branch in apprehending General Noriega in Panama and
bringing him to Florida, and the actions of the Judicial Branch in
trying, convicting and sentencing him, were entirely "right."

In the absence of any absolute "right" and "wrong" that is "independent
of the law of any country in the world," on what basis can Mr. Jokiniemi
or anyone else declare that our government's actions in respect of 
General Noriega were "wrong," if the Supreme Court rules that they
were "right"?

					-- Matt Rosenblatt
                                        (matt@amsaa.brl.mil)

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