HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 09:36:27 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: prime theories
              18 Dec 1992 10:52:44 -0800 from <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>

From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>

> Huh?  I've point out a way that progressive marginal rates FAVOR rich
> people, say that that's an argument against progressive marginal, and
> KAT comes up with the above.

Say we institute a new tax.  Everyday that you choose to step out
of your house you pay $2 tax if white and $1 if black.  Now two
arguments may be made against this disparity:

   1. Whites would try to cheat or change their lefestyle and
      as a result the government would have to increase everyone's
      (white AND black's) taxes.  Therefore the above policy, actually
      is anti-black.

   2. If a white becomes sick and stays home he would save $2 but
      a black saves $1.  Therefore, when sick, a white could "afford"
      to stay home a bit easier.  Therefore the above policy is
      anti-black.

See, the first argument, which I might not believe in, and which
some people on the net have been making, at least is intelligible
and merits serious discussion.

However, the second argument, which apparently you are making
wrt tax-free bonds, is patently nonsense and wrong.

Next you might say that the fact that some convictions might be
overturned on a technicality is anti-white because.........well,
because more of the criminals (per capita basis) are blacks than
whites, and as a result whites benefit less.

> -andy

--KAT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 11:58:00 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: progressive tax?

From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>


>>> Progressive tax prevents the wealthy from paying their bills to the poor,
>>> saving in the banks, and producing more jobs.

>> Huh? Are you saying that a) the wealthy have an obligation to the poor,
>> b) that they are prevented from fulfilling it due to the relative
>> size of their tax burden?

> I am saying that:

> progressive tax is harmful to the economy. That's all. That means that
> everybody loses, noone wins.(maybe beaurocrats)

Too bad most poor people are idiots.  Otherwise they would advocate
zero tax for the rich so that the rich could help the poor even more.

What about negative tax?  Let's PAY the rich (instead of taxing
them) in order to help the poor even more than that.

>> -other Andy
> Caius

--KAT
From: andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: the dull tv thing
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:05:42 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>>     Sure, if you are humor-impaired !
>>
>>             Relax, WWF wrestling isn't real either !
>
>  IT'S NOT?!?!!!?!?!?

It's more real than most other things on TV.  Like other shows,
there's a script, but pro-wrestling doesn't substitute a stunt-double
and try to con you into believing that the pretty boy is taking bumps.

The interesting question is whether or not other pro-sports are
"booked" and why their fans would care either way.  (Think about it.
There aren't many surprises, and the spectator's surprise and the
benefits they get from being surprised do not depend on whether or not
the participants are surprised.)

-andy
--
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:46:00 ET
From:         "Ellen.Edgerton" <EBEDGERT@SUADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: the way dull tv ought to be

It seems to me that some people are confusing >bigotry< with the larger
social problem of >racism<.

Anyone of any race can be a bigot.  And bigotry is a serious problem
because it feeds the much more serious problem of racism.

However, the >problem< of racism is >oppression<, not >bigotry<.  And
it is a sad fact, and painful for most whites like myself to admit,
that whites >still< hold the overwhelming amount of power in this
country over people of other races, and blacks particularly.  Racism
is about a mixture of power and bigotry.   It's about oppression.

Spike Lee may be a bigot; I don't know, I'd have to hear more about
his statements and actions before I could decide.  Same goes for
Rush Limbaugh.

As for the term "racist," I think it's a misleading one.  But that does
NOT excuse people, particularly white people, from thinking about where
they fit in in the very real scheme of institutional racism in this
country.

RACISM is the problem; not "racists."  But white people have got to
think about where they fit in, and worry about what part they're playing
in the continuation of racial oppression.  We can acknowledge and warn
against elements of bigotry among >all< people in our society, but we
simply must understand that as whites we still hold the greater part of
an imbalance of power that is hurting this country very deeply, and has
been for hundreds of years.

Let's stop lying to ourselves.


Ellen
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:31:00 ET
From:         "Ellen.Edgerton" <EBEDGERT@SUADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      soon dears soon

At least you >have< access to carols and booze.  I don't even have that.

Have a good weekend, all you liberals and conservatives out there in
Netland!


Ellen
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 14:31:00 EST
From:         David Clem <$GET@PCCJES2.BITNET>
Subject:      Other People's Money (was Inaugural costs...)

Ellen.Edgerton says:

>I think the issue is interesting because it seems as if people are
>these days just as concerned about how "private" money (i.e., big business
>donations, political group money, special interest group money) is spent,
>as they are about "public" money (taxpayers' money).  In other words,
>people seem to be thinking about responsible ways to spend both "private"
>and "public" money.

Public money is (usually) just private money that has been taken from
the person who earned it.

>It seems to me that people who hold these views (admittedly, not everyone
>does -- I'm not sure if I do myself) are starting to view both
>"public" and "private" money as "our" money.  All of it.  There seems to
>be a feeling that "private" money ought to be used for the public good
>just as "public" money should.

I have no problem with people "thinking" of or suggesting
responsible ways to spend both public and private money. What
troubles me is when people use the coercive power of government
to control (steal) other people's (private) money when
they can't obtain such control voluntarily. Example: the
landowner's plea bargain in a recent environmental "crime" case
(Tudor Farms) included a one-mllion dollar fine paid to the
National Wildlife Federation and an equal fine paid to the govt.
I don't think this is an isolated case.

Another example is ILOTAs: Interest on Lawyer's Own (?) Trust Accounts.
These are accounts containing pooled money held in trust by an attorney
on amounts too small (relatively) to justify the expense of setting up
and accounting for the interest. The Bar Associations in 49 states require
the interest go to approved "public interest" groups, and not to the
owner of the money (the accounting shouldn't be difficult, assuming
you don't do it manually :-).

I suggest that any scheme, promoted by anyone (including the govt.), for
the "public good" be looked at twice (at least) for a preponderance of the
benefits going to just a few individuals.

- David

David Clem      $get@pccjes2.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:49:17 EST
From:         Doctor Pizz <jdt10@CUNIXB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Some replies...
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

T.

I have NO desire to discriminate against homosexuals.  I just don't
want government telling private people and businesses how to run their
lives.  That goes both for the homosexual who should be able to live in
peace, and the private business who has the right not to hire him if
they do not want to.

Pizz
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original_To:  BITNET%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:48:00 EDT
From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Discrimination of various kinds

Linda:

        Perhaps some Episcopalians, for their own reasons, prefer to be
thought of as "Protestants".

        However, the term "Catholic" is not limited to those who pledge
allegiance to the Bishop of Rome.  Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic,
Episcopalian - all Catholic.

        You'll get a fight from some hardline RC Clergy on that; nevertheless,
without going into a whole slew of Church History (unless you're interested),
they are all "Catholic".

-T.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:17:40 CST
From:         Rick Troth <TROTH@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Printing Postscript

>                    Does anyone have a Postscript translator to turn
>these into something the 9790 can handle? (Interpress, Metafile, etc.)

        Well ... there's GhostScript.   It's not tuned for the 4050,
dunno how it will look on the 9790,  but it's free and you get source.
I have it generating PBM (Portable BitMap),  which I then munge into raw
(uncompressed) Xerox raster IMG with CMS Pipelines.

Rick Troth <troth@ricevm1.rice.edu>, Rice University, I/S VM Systems Support
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:24:54 CST
From:         Rick Troth <TROTH@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: printer files ===> mainfr

>  2) Xerox floppy disks could be read on an MS-DOS PC?

        They can.   I don't remember where I picked it up,  but I have
a program called XRXDSK that successfully read my two FSLs.   So now
I maintain them on the host and DJDE FILE them down after editions.

>  4) Xerox documented the metacode datastream?

        Yes,  that *would* be nice.   Actually,  I think they did,
but it would have been nice  (and probably to Xerox's benefit)  if it
had been freely distributable rather than proprietary.

Rick Troth <troth@ricevm1.rice.edu>, Rice University, I/S VM Systems Support
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:17:00 CST
From:         Dave Ulrick <A01DGU1@NIU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: printer files ===> mainfr

On Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:37:21 EST mark wheeler <mark.wheeler@CANREM.COM> said:
>Wouldn't it be nice if:
>  ...
>  2) Xerox floppy disks could be read on an MS-DOS PC?

And written, too.  In fact, if the format used on the Xerox disks
is not too unusual, someone could write a device driver for IBM
clones to allow Xerox printer disks to be read and written on the PC.
This is how some of us have ported our old CP/M floppies to DOS,
after all (for more information, consult INFO-CPM).

>  ...
>  5) XENOS would produce a version of XJCF which ran under a 3.X
>     release of JES; but no, they'd rather sell us Output Master,
>     and Xerox would rather sell us XPAF! Are you still at JES 2.2
>     largely because of XJCF? Isn't that outrageous?

Yes, XJCF has a lot to do with our current JES2 status, although we
understand that XJCF will work with JES2 3.1.3.  If only our JES2
systems programmer (somebody I know all too well :-)) would actually
have the time, he would upgrade us to 3.1.3.  Of course, once we're
there, XJCF has no future.  Having installed XJCF twice, though, I
do understand the primary motivation for Output Master (i.e., no
JES2 source mods).

>My guess is that you'll have to unload your non-standard fonts to
>floppies, then send them to Xerox to be put on tape. Finally, load
>the tape into the font widths table. Of course, this will cost you
>money, but that's why Xerox has "font Service centres": they're
>for those people who THOUGHT they could save a few bucks by buying
>a printer without an attached tapedrive!

This is more or less what someone else told me in a private
response.  Even as we speak I'm waiting to hear back from Xerox...

>...
>I've been there, except with an old 8700 with 8" floppy drives.

We still have one of those, too.  :-)  I'm just concentrating on
gettting HFDL to work with the 4090, which is our semi-official
electronic forms printer.

>Have fun.

I'll try!

Dave
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dave Ulrick                        Bitnet:    A01DGU1@NIU   (MVS/ESA)
Northern Illinois University                  A01DGU1@NIUCS (VM/SP)
DeKalb, IL, USA                    Internet:  a01dgu1@mvs.niu.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:14:08 EST
From:         "William B. Renfro" <wrenfro@ST6000.SCT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: printer files ===> mainfr
              16, 92 5:37 pm

By the way Xerox Floppys can be read on a dos machine.  I do it every day
at work. All you need is the correct software.

Will Renfro
wrenfro@st6000.sct.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:54:22 EST
From:         Dave Jones <RDJONE01@ULKYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Printing Postscript

We are interested in uploading Postscript files from PC's for printing
on our Xerox 9790.  Does anyone have a Postscript translator to turn
these into something the 9790 can handle? (Interpress, Metafile, etc.)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:35:04 PST
From:         "Mark C. Lawrence" <M.Lawrence@STANFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      HFDL font definitions without tape drive

REPLY TO 12/15/92 14:24 FROM XEROX-L@TAMVM1.BITNET "The Xerox Discussion List":
Printer files ===> mainframe without tape drive

On Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:24:00 CST, Dave Ulrick <A01DGU1@NIU.BITNET> said,
>Subject:      Printer files ===> mainframe without tape drive
>I'm installing HFDL v3.10 on our MVS/ESA 3.1.3 system.  Our JES2
>version is 2.2.0, and our interface software to our Xerox printers
>(an 8700 and a 4090) is XJCF.  Both printers are run only channel
>attached, never offline.  We don't have a tape drive for either
>printer.
>
>My reading of the HFDL doc tells me that it wants to know about
>*all* of our fonts and logos.  However, ...
>then be loaded into HFDL's database.  Guess what?  We *can't*
>create any tape with either of our printers.
>
>(1)  Do we really *need* to upload all of this stuff to HFDL?

Yes, it won't use any font it doesn't understand.

>(2)  Does HFDL really need to see the fonts, or would a file of
>     information about the fonts suffice (i.e., font name, point
>     size, etc.)?

Right, it only needs to know the width of each character, and which
characters are in the font.  I can send you a description of the
HFDLWIDS file if you want to build your own.

>(3)  Is there any way to upload a file from, say, a 4090 to an
>     IBM-style mainframe?
Tape, or floppy...

>(4)  Do we need to convince Xerox to make us a tape of what we
>     need for HFDL?

May be.  I'd be happy to send you a copy of our HFDLWIDS file; it has
the standard Xerox fonts (as of a few years ago), plus Times and
Helvetica.  Again, all that's in here is the character widths, so I don't
think this violates anyone's copyrights.

Our HFDL is 2.1D, I don't know if the files are compatible with 3.1.

Mark C. Lawrence
Systems Programmer     Internet: M.Lawrence@Forsythe.Stanford.edu
Stanford Data Center     Bitnet: M.Lawrence@STANFORD
Stanford, CA 94305-4136     Tel: (415) 723-4976

To:  XEROX-L@TAMVM1.BITNET
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:24:00 CST
From:         Dave Ulrick <A01DGU1@NIU.BITNET>
Subject:      Printer files ===> mainframe without tape drive

I'm installing HFDL v3.10 on our MVS/ESA 3.1.3 system.  Our JES2
version is 2.2.0, and our interface software to our Xerox printers
(an 8700 and a 4090) is XJCF.  Both printers are run only channel
attached, never offline.  We don't have a tape drive for either
printer.

My reading of the HFDL doc tells me that it wants to know about
*all* of our fonts and logos.  However, the only stuff we have on
tape is the standard Xerox A03 fonts; everything else is on the
printer's hard disk and on floppy disk.  The HFDL installation
doc in Appendix B ("Creating a font and logo tape") talks about
how to create a tape with all of our fonts and logos that may
then be loaded into HFDL's database.  Guess what?  We *can't*
create any tape with either of our printers.

My questions, then, are as follows:

(1)  Do we really *need* to upload all of this stuff to HFDL?
(2)  Does HFDL really need to see the fonts, or would a file of
     information about the fonts suffice (i.e., font name, point
     size, etc.)?
(3)  Is there any way to upload a file from, say, a 4090 to an
     IBM-style mainframe?
(4)  Do we need to convince Xerox to make us a tape of what we
     need for HFDL?

Sorry if my use of Xerox terminology is rather awkward; I'm
really an MVS/VM systems programmer who gets to pretend to be a
Xerox expert from time to time. :-)  I'm not really expecting any
wonderful answers to my question, but I would like to know
whether I can get our fonts/logos from the printer to the
mainframe in some manner, however crude that method may be.  I
doubt that "buy a tape drive for the 4090" would be a very good
answer for us.

Thanks!
Dave
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:42:29 -0600
From:         Dave Del Real 2-8496 <SPGDDR@UCBCMSA.BITNET>
Subject:      Lost output on a Xerox 4850 in a MVS4.2 environment

16 days ago our installation moved from MVS/ESA 3.1.1 to a 4.2.0 system.  We
have had a couple of incidents of lost Jes2 output and we are at a loss as to
why the output vanished. Here is the background and the symptoms of the
problem.

Our printing facility does not run 24 hours a day.  It is shut down on weekends
and from midnight to 6am on weekdays.

We have 2 4850's and 2 3211 type impact printers all connected as locals
through a channel extender.

Each night all the printers are drained from Jes,  but the printers are not
powered down.  After some period of time the Xerox printers go into some power
saver mode and require warm up time each morning.

Changes in JES2 v4.2.0's default separator pages required me to make create
an EXIT1 load module to change the separator page so that it could display
the job name and jes number on the Xerox console.  The JSL syntax requires
that the job name and jes number be printed on the banner page on the same
line so that it can be picked up and displayed on the Xerox console.

For two weeks there were no incidents (that we know of) of lost output.

Last Friday the operator started one of the 4850 (Jes $SPRTx), with the printer
in online mode and the JDL started.  In Xerox console indicated that the
printer was receiving output for the host.  The MVS console indicated that
Jes was sending jobs and purging them as Jes thought the job had been fully
received.  Unfortunately, the Xerox console indicated that there were no
jobs on it's spool file.  The operator tried resetting (on Xerox) the job that
Jes was in the process of sending (because it was large enough to do it). The
resetting of the job caused the printer to begin printing the job and any
other job Jes subsequently sent.  After that we had no problem for the rest
of the day.

On Monday the problem repeated itself only this time it was the other Xerox
printer.  Again it happened when the printers were first started and a
reset cleared the problem.

The problem was first reported to Xerox on Friday and a CE was sent out to
investigate.  He could not find a problem and when the problem reoccurred
a SSE was sent out.  We have begun debugging operations.  Has anyone had
this problem?
From: DOUG.WOODWORTH@MAIL.ADMIN.WISC.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
Subject: PostScript printing
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:21:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

TO: XEROX-L@TAMVM1.BITNET

(We are interested in uploading Postscript files from PC's for printing
on our Xerox 9790.  Does anyone have a Postscript translator to turn
these into something the 9790 can handle? (Interpress, Metafile, etc.)
)

We at the University of Wisconsin - ADP use the Fibre 200 to print PostScript
files on our 9790s.  The Fibre 200 creates Interpress masters.  We requested
software modifications so that the Fibre 200 sends the Interpress master back
to our host (IBM 3090) rather than to an XNS printer.  We had to create some
MVS software to accomplish this.

The Fibre 200 is end-of-life.  It has been replaced by the Fibre 400 and 600.
It is not a very good network citizen and it is slow.  But we have found very
few PostScript files it had trouble converting.

doug.woodworth@mail.admin.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xerox-l
From: "mark wheeler" <mark.wheeler@canrem.com>
Subject: printer files ===> mainfr
Reply-To: "mark wheeler" <mark.wheeler@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: bit
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:37:21 EST

Wouldn't it be nice if:

  1) attached tapedrives were standard, not optional, on all Xerox
     printers?

  2) Xerox floppy disks could be read on an MS-DOS PC?

  3) Xerox documented the structure of the HFDL font widths table?

  4) Xerox documented the metacode datastream?

  5) XENOS would produce a version of XJCF which ran under a 3.X
     release of JES; but no, they'd rather sell us Output Master,
     and Xerox would rather sell us XPAF! Are you still at JES 2.2
     largely because of XJCF? Isn't that outrageous?

My guess is that you'll have to unload your non-standard fonts to
floppies, then send them to Xerox to be put on tape. Finally, load
the tape into the font widths table. Of course, this will cost you
money, but that's why Xerox has "font Service centres": they're
for those people who THOUGHT they could save a few bucks by buying
a printer without an attached tapedrive!

Your only hope of avoiding the above is if you can somehow get the
fonts off the 4090 backup floppy onto an MSDOS machine, then dump the
font headers to find the width of each character (another "wouldn't
it be nice": wouldn't it be nice if Xerox documented the structure
of their FNT, LGO, and IMG files?). Finally, plug the correct values
into the HFDLWIDs file.

I've been there, except with an old 8700 with 8" floppy drives.

I gave up.

Have fun.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU