HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
Subject: Fundamental rating units.
Keywords: go analogy life power chess shogi
Date: 22 Aug 92 00:35:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: csc.1992Aug21.123530.449
Distribution: world
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury

In `Re: SHOGI! (odds-giving and "distance" in ability',  Kenneth Regan writes:

|> Say two players differ by a "fundamental rating unit" (FRU) if one
|> expects to score 75% against the latter.  The Elo system with coefficients
|> (16, 4%) used by the USCF has an FRU of 200 points.
|> Hence a novice 1200 player is about 8 FRU's away from Kasparov.
|> The FRU concept applies to any game, and my hunch is that in Shogi and Go,
|> the FRU distance from novice to world champ is much greater than in chess.

This is a very good idea, the  FRU  for a game.  It's obviously a good way
to compare the difficulty, or depth, or something, of different games.
It seems reasonably objective, if sufficient games are played, and records kept.

I think the traditional Japanese approach to ratings was effectively based
on such a method, wasn't it (?), though I don't know if 75% was the figure used.

I like the FRU idea. Surely some pretty accurate figures for it must be known,
or easily calculable, for go as for chess, and probably shogi and backgammon also.

I would love to see some figures on this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Bill Taylor              wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free will - the result of chaotic amplification of quantum events in the brain.
Galaxies - the result of chaotic amplification of quantum events in the big bang.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: adrian@milton.u.washington.edu (Adrian Mariano)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: xgospel, xamigo, xwidget available on archive site
Keywords: programs
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:31:36 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

The following are now available on ftp.u.washington.edu in public/go:
  xgospel.sh.Z : X client to the IGS
  xamigo.sh.Z  : X verison of AmiGo, a go playing program
  xwidget2.sh.Z: New version of Antoine's go board widget
                 (This is the version which is in xgoban.)



                    
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess,rec.games.backgammon
From: ekw@world.std.com (Elliott C Winslow)
Subject: Re: Fundamental rating units.
Summary: Robertie calls it "skill differential".
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Distribution:     world
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 02:18:47 GMT

ekw@world.std.com (Elliott C Winslow) writes:
>This concept was in an issue of Bill Robertie's Backgammon magazine earlier
>this year.  He gave figures for all games, including poker.  Of course go
>was way up at the top.

It's in _Inside Backgammon_, Volume 2, Number 1 (January-February, 1992).

He give the following table, based on 70-75%, and some "notion of what
constitutes a single game or contest."

      Go          40
      Chess       14
      Scrabble    10
      Poker       10
      Backgammon  8
      Checkers    8
      Hearts      5
      Blackjack   2
      Craps       0.0001
      Lotteries   0.0000001
      Roulette    0


Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: schoett@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Oliver Schoett)
Subject: Commented games
Organization: Inst. fuer Informatik, Technische Univ. Muenchen, Germany
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 12:36:56 GMT

Some time ago someone asked in this group for more comments in the
games that are stored electronically.  Here is an interesting
quotation from Akira Ishida and James Davies, ``Attack and Defense''
Tokyo: Ishi Press 1980 (Elementary Go Series, Vol. 5), p. 251:

                          Professional Games

   Once a certain level has been reached, perhaps around 1-2 kyu, a
   great deal can be learned by looking at professional games.  It is
   best to ignore the commentary and just play through the game move
   by move on your own, trying to understand why each stone was played
   and what it accomplished, and trying to anticipate the next stone.
   That you see only a tiny fraction of what is going on does not
   matter; working that tiny fraction out for yourself is what counts.

I find that this mode indeed makes me more active when studying a game
than just consuming commentary like "If W had played here, he would
have won the fight with the sequence in Dia. .. (shows 17 move
sequence)".  If that is beyond a professional to see during a game, it
is certainly not the kind of consideration relevant for my own play.

It is interesting to look at the commentary afterwards; particularly
about whose position is better and why.

By the way, I find the book excellent.


Oliver Schoett     Inst. f. Informatik (H2), Technische Univ. M"unchen
(3 kyu)            Postfach 20 24 20,     8000 M"unchen 2,     Germany
schoett@informatik.tu-muenchen.de    phone +49 89 2105-2399  fax -8207
From: eopa27@castle.ed.ac.uk (Dr D R T Keeble)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:46:25 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Aug13.071253.23182@wixer.cactus.org> cb@wixer.cactus.org (Cyberspace Buddha) writes:

#> What? no one has remembered the similarity of go to Conway's
#> life?

#well, since I'm new to this here net, no.  But since Conway's Life has been
#taken to 3D <probably more by now>, what say you to a 3D go?    

We tried this last night, and came to the conclusion that 1*1*1 and
2*2*2 are seki with best play. There was not enough brain power around
to handle 3*3*3!! :-)

#While I'm here, I'll save some bandwitdh & ask for pointers to good
#beginning books/text files on go.

"Introduction to Go" by Iwamoto is the standard beginners book on go.
Once you've digested that I'd suggest "The Second Book of Go", by
Bouzlich (???????). These are both published by the Ishi press.
There is a FAQ file that appears here from time to time.

#thanks,
#cb

#---
#this <censored> has been <censored> into <censored>


-- 
David Keeble
Laboratory for Neuroscience        "There is death in the Hane"
University of Edinburgh
Scotland UK
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: M20481@mwvm.mitre.org
Subject: Where are there GO servers?
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:39:53 GMT

Could someone please tell me the IP address and the host names to the GO
servers?I am a beginner and don't know where they are at.
From: jloup@nocturne.chorus.fr (Jean-Loup Gailly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: igo.zip
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:32:08 GMT
Reply-To: jloup@nocturne.chorus.fr (Jean-Loup Gailly)
Distribution: rec.games.go,world
Organization: Chorus systemes, Saint Quentin en Yvelines, France

John M. Harres <harres@sundance.uwyo.edu> reports:

> I recently downloaded igo.zip from ftp.u.washington.edu. On unpacking with
> pkunzip, I got failed CRC checks on multiple files.

You are probably using an old and buggy version of pkunzip. Check
that your version is 1.10, not 1.0x. The portable unzip can also
extract igo.zip without problem.  You can get the source of the
portable unzip in wuarchive.wustl.edu:/mirrors/misc/unix/unzip42.tar-z,
and pkzip 1.10 in wuarchive.wustl.edu:/mirrors/msdos/zip/pkz110eu.exe.

Jean-loup Gailly

Chorus systemes, 6 av G. Eiffel, 78182 St-Quentin-en-Yvelines-Cedex, France
email: jloup@chorus.fr    Tel: +33 (1) 30 64 82 79 Fax: +33 (1) 30 57 00 66
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: Michael_Pizolato@afs.com (Michael Pizolato)
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go
Reply-To: Michael_Pizolato@afs.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:44:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.223403.19986@crd.ge.com> kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David  
Kassover) writes:
> In article <16b39jINN6id@hal.com> woodstck@hal.com (Nathan Hess) writes:
> >Well, there are those who find in Go analogies to life.  And then there
> >are those who find in life analogies to Go...
> >
> What? no one has remembered the similarity of go to Conway's
> life?
> 
> Wasn't there a serious mathematical discussion here in this
> newsgroup of using lifelike finite state automata and fractal
> analysis to aid in the playing of go?

Lord, are there no philosophers left?  Is everything doomed to technical  
analysis? ;-)

--
Michael_Pizolato@afs.com
~18 kyu
Q16
NeXTMail appreciated
From: adrian@milton.u.washington.edu (Adrian Mariano)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: New version of Ascii IGS client (igc) available
Keywords: igs
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:22:34 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

A new version of my ascii client to the Internet Go Server is now
available.  (This program used to be called igs but has been renamed
to igc at Tim Casey's request to reduce confusion.)

This version fixes a bug which many people have noticed that prevents
one from observing games in which m6 is playing.  It also adds the
capability to sort the output from the 'who' command.  

The file is public/go/igc050.sh.Z on ftp.u.washington.edu.  
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
From: gary@suite.sw.oz.au (Gary Corby)
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go (& some comparison
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Distribution: world 
Date: 18 Aug 92 01:12:43 GMT
Keywords: go analogy life power chess 

In <1992Aug17.130129.371@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes:

>Just a few more words on the comparison of go and chess.

>One, as has been observed, is the far larger size of board...

>The other area where go has a great advantage, is in the concept of good shape...

Speaking as an average amateur at both games, I'd say they both
have their pros and cons.  I agree with your two advantages, but there
is more to it than that.

Go is a much "purer" game, in the sense that the rules are much simpler and 
there are no "special conditions", such as for example en passant.  Go is also
quite a lot slower, because of the board size of course.  Chess to my mind
has a lot of interesting features Go lacks.  Chess has a much higher degree
of Aha! factor.  The tactical comlications of dealing with differing pieces
allows for more blunders in chess, but also for more brilliancies.  Playing a 
hard fought chess game can be an emotional rollercoaster.  Go is much more
emotionally even.

>A few words about shogi. I have always quite wanted to learn this game. I've
>read the rules of course; and there are many unique features which look
>fascinating.

Another interesting one is the Chinese version of chess.  It's clearly
descended from the original Indian game, but has evolved in a quite
different way.

Gary

-- 
Gary Corby  (gary@softway.oz.au)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: **IGS Client program for sunview NEEDED**
From: liu10@husc8.harvard.edu (Eric Liu)
Date: 15 Aug 92 15:23:47 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

I have a friend who uses sunview on her work station.  She wants a cilent
server program for IGS.  I think I have seen one posted on the newsgroup
before.  Can someone please tell me where the program might be down loaded
from?  Thanks in advance for your help!
-- 

Eric Liu
liu10@husc.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: ***What's Going On at IGS??***
From: liu10@scws2.harvard.edu (Eric Liu)
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:08:11 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

What's going on?   Are all three servers down at the same time?
I can't connect to any one of the three servers at berkeley, unm or
fr.  I am desperate!  Help!!!!!!!  Please please tell me it ain't 
so!!  (Tears....... I can't write any more.  See ya..)
-- 

Eric Liu
liu10@husc.harvard.edu
From: li@bellman.aa.washington.edu (Rufeng Li)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Where are there GO servers?
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:29:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug18.222958.21102
Reply-To: li@aa.washington.edu
Organization: U of Wash Dept of Aeronautics and Astronautics

In article <168476BCA.M20481@mwvm.mitre.org>, M20481@mwvm.mitre.org writes:

>Could someone please tell me the IP address and the host names to the GO
>servers?I am a beginner and don't know where they are at.
>

128.32.201.46 6969

Enjoy.
From: cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: **IGS Client program for sunview NEEDED**
Date: 16 Aug 92 08:11:15 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Aug15.152348.14764@husc3.harvard.edu> liu10@husc8.harvard.edu (Eric Liu) writes:
>I have a friend who uses sunview on her work station.  She wants a cilent
>server program for IGS.  I think I have seen one posted on the newsgroup
>before.  Can someone please tell me where the program might be down loaded
>from?  Thanks in advance for your help!
>-- 

There are several client programs at milton.u.washington.edu, directory
public/go. Highly recommended, unless you use a VAX (no VAX clients).
They (the clients) generally have 'igs' in them.
-- 
-Tero Sand
  EMail: cust_ts@cc.helsinki.fi     Snail mail: Auroran Sairaala os. 6-1
  (if that doesn't work, try                    Nordenskioldinkatu 20
   cust_ts@kruuna.helsinki.fi)                  00250 Helsinki 25, Finland
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: cgay@ilix.cs.uoregon.edu (Carl L. Gay)
Subject: Re: ***What's Going On at CNAM??***
Reply-To: cgay@cs.uoregon.edu
Organization: CS Dept, University of Oregon
	<1992Aug14.132209.15531@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 04:17:02 GMT


   From: schoett@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Oliver Schoett)
   Date: 14 Aug 92 13:22:09 GMT

   In article <1992Aug13.230812.14714@husc3.harvard.edu>
   liu10@scws2.harvard.edu (Eric Liu) writes:

    > What's going on?   Are all three servers down at the same time?
    > I can't connect to any one of the three servers at berkeley, unm or
    > fr.  I am desperate!  Help!!!!!!!  Please please tell me it ain't 
    > so!!  (Tears....... I can't write any more.  See ya..)

   [...]
   I can reach the French server, but there is hardly anyone on it.

I have *always* gotten "connection refused" or , occasionally,
"connection timed out" from cnam.cnam.fr.  Does anyone know what the
story is with the French server?

-Carl
From: bernd@cc.uow.edu.au (Bernd Wechner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go (& some comparison
Date: 19 Aug 92 05:26:34 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.) writes:

> Giving or recieving stones also has the
> advantage that it doesn't change the game a whole lot- the basic strategies
> are still the same.

I don't know. 

I rather find that when I'm playing an even sort of game I'm 
in a competition of sorts. A battle of wits. An tug of war. An
experiment in strategy. 

With a large handicap my game centres very much more on one players 
weaknesses (mine or the others) and the mistakes he will or won't 
make. And a resulting conflict in emotions when I see those weaknesses
exploited.

In any case, I learn more and I enjoy the game more, when it is played
as evenly as possible. Handicap stones tend to affect my game a lot.

Bernd.

As to rank (someone was complaining the lack of references), I have none
and no way of estimating it fairly. I can win or lose just as readily
playing with or against a nine stone handicap depending very much upon 
whom I'm playing. I sat the self-rank test and rated somewhere between 
1 and 10 kyu, but if I had to hazard a guess (not trusting multiple choice 
problems in the least) I'd rather say 20 kyu.

But it wouldn't surprise me to find a great many unranked players here
in any case.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: vader@iat.holonet.net (Edward Blair)
Subject: Re: Star points on smaller boards?
Organization: HoloNet (BBS: 510-704-1058)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 08:10:15 GMT

nj@magnolia.Berkeley.EDU (The Automatic F Key) writes:
: I'm writing a go board display and IGS client for the Amiga.
: These are rather silly questions, but just for completeness:
: Do people ever play handicap games on boards smaller than 19x19?
: Is there a standard for where to put the star points on such boards?
: 
: Thanks.
: 
: 
: nj@cs.Berkeley.EDU

IGS only defines handicap stone positions for 9x9, 13x13, 19x19, 21x12,
& 25x25. For all other sized boards, all handicap stones will end up
being placed at A(boardsize), that is the upper left corner. The
recomended way to play handicap games on non-standard boards is for
black to play normal moves and for white to pass untill the handicap
stones are placed. Discuss with your opponent where you think the
handicap stones should go.

vader@holonet.net
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darth Vader Lord of the Sith   | Still and quiet Feline Form,
vader@holonet.net              | In the sun, asleep and warm,
In Real Life: Edward Blair     | His tail is limp, his whiskers drooped,
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: J.M.Ross@man0507.wins.icl.co.uk (J.M.Ross)
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Content-Identifier: 485
Subject: Shogi/Chinese Chess
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:04:04 +0000

Does anyone know of a Shogi or Chinese Chess playing program
for PCs or Atari ST?

James M. Ross
(j.m.ross@man0507.wins.icl.co.uk)
From: bernd@cc.uow.edu.au (Bernd Wechner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Where can I buy Go stuff in Oz?
Date: 19 Aug 92 04:52:10 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

I have a friend here that's just started to play Go and is using my
board at the moment. But he's like to buy his own set and some books
as well. I once had a mail order catalogue from a group in Brisbane with
an extensive range but have misplaced it. We could probably dig up a
board somehwere if we went shopping in Sydney, but good books are much
harder to find on the fly. Sydney BTW is a good day trip away in
itself.

Any decent Go clubs in Oz should be able to help out, but I don't have
any addresses again, nor can I find any in the clubs files available for
ftp ...

Bernd.

P.S. Thanks for the interesting Real World Analogies so far. One friend
     recently described it as a battle between Real Estate Agents ;-).
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: bgrant@engin.umich.edu (Bruce Grant)
Subject: Re: Meanings of Technical Terms in Go
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:52:45 GMT

Ishi Press published (maybe still does) a small book called "Go:
International Handbook and Dictionary" which had about 30 pages of
English definitions for Japanese go terms (and another 30 pages of
definitions in German).  The latest address I have seen for Ishi Press is

            C.P.O. Box 2126
            Tokyo, Japan

Bruce Grant (bgrant@umcc.ais.org)
From: asymptot@sbe (Mike Mathews)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: E-Mail Go question
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:07:35 GMT
Organization: School of Business, California State University, Hayward

A question for people who play E-Mail Go games.  Do you use an ASCII
board for move exchange?  or do you just send the move?  

If you do use an ASCII board, could someone please send me a copy of
one at mmathews@csuhayward.edu ?

Thank you very much for your time,
Michael Mathews
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
From: dvf@kepler.unh.edu (David V Feldman)
Subject: Re: SHOGI! (odds-giving and "distance" in ability)
Keywords: go analogy life power chess shogi
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 00:07:18 GMT

In article <Bt914x.384@acsu.buffalo.edu> regan@acsu.buffalo.edu (Kenneth Regan) writes:
>
>Ten years ago, Larry Kaufman gave me odds of Hisha and Kaku (Rook and
>Bishop), which is the Shogi analogue of Queen odds at chess.
>He thrashed me twice handily.
>To make me and my IM title feel worse, he confided that the Shogi world
>champion could probably beat /him/ at odds of Hisha and Kaku.
>
>These odds are not so extreme in Shogi as in chess because you cannot
>win by "exchanging down", since captured pieces return to play.
>The odds taker at Shogi must attack to win.
>
>Now:-------
>Say two players differ by a "fundamental rating unit" (FRU) if one
>expects to score 75% against the latter.  The Elo system with coefficients
>(16, 4%) used by the USCF has an FRU of 200 points.
>Hence a novice 1200 player is about 8 FRU's away from Kasparov.
>The FRU concept applies to any game, and my hunch is that in Shogi and Go,
>the FRU distance from novice to world champ is much greater than in chess.
>
>		Reactions?  Comments?   --Ken Regan
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Kenneth W. Regan           			Assistant Professor
>Computer Science Dept.				(Opinions not < SUNYaB)
>SUNY at Buffalo, 226 Bell Hall			Tel.: (716) 636-3189, -3180
>Buffalo,  NY  14260				regan@cs.buffalo.edu

Are there any proposals for statistical argumentation that would help
us estimate how often grandmasters and world champions play ``God's move''?
What I have in mind would be a sophisticate generalization of a 
phenomenon familiar from tennis, where the structure of the scoring
ampliflies differences in ability (a probability of a little more that
50% of winning a point translates into an even higher probability of
winning a game, an even higher probability of winning a set and
a still higher probability of winning a match.  Calculating these
carefully one could work backwards from the percentage of matchs
player A wins against player B to the percentage of points player
A wins agains player B.  Has anyone worked out even something crude
for chess along these lines?

David Feldman
From: nj@magnolia.Berkeley.EDU (The Automatic F Key)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Star points on smaller boards?
Date: 19 Aug 92 10:02:45
Organization: Postcarcinogenic Bliss, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: magnolia.berkeley.edu

I'm writing a go board display and IGS client for the Amiga.
These are rather silly questions, but just for completeness:
Do people ever play handicap games on boards smaller than 19x19?
Is there a standard for where to put the star points on such boards?

Thanks.


nj@cs.Berkeley.EDU
From: asymptot@sbe (Mike Mathews)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Go on an Amiga platform? Many Faces play level?
Date: 10 Aug 92 19:45:21 GMT
Organization: School of Business, California State University, Hayward

hello all.

I am a Go beginner and am wondering if there is a reasonable program 
available for the Amiga.  I have obtained AmiGo 1.0 but this version
is still quite buggy.  Is there a newer version available?

On another topic.  I recently bought Many Faces of Go (Ishi Press) and
have been very happy with it (however, having to play at work exclusively
is somewhat of a pain.)  I am told that this product plays at approx. 13 kyu.
Is this correct?  I seem to be able to beat it 50% at two handicap, and I
am certainly not near 15kyu yet.  Do I have to change the default look-ahead
to get it to play at 13k?

Thanks very much for your answers-
if you privately mail answers to my queries please send to mmathews@csuhayvm.edu
, else I will read them on the net-

mike mathews
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: os9ug@gkcl.ists.ca (OS-9 User Group)
Subject: sakata
Reply-To: sizone!justin@ee.ryerson.ca  (Justin Wells)
Organization: y
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 22:50:31 GMT


Just a reminder:

Sakata 9d, and Oeda 9d, will be at the Sheraton Center in Toronto 
on Thursday and Friday evenings.  Free to attend.  Boards will be set
up for amateurs to play amongst each other, and Sakata and Oeda will
be playing simultaneous games against selected amateur opponants.

Events begin at 6:30pm both Thursday and Friday.  Sheraton Center is
located at on Queen St., near the intersection of Queen and Bay in
Toronto.  (Directly across the street from City Hall).

 
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess