HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Subject: Re: Shaking people up with "she"? (was Re: Sexist language)
Reply-To: leveret@warren.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.20 $
Organization: Indexed; Access: Random.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:07:16 +0000

In article <BzBvMn.AnC@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>... If there is a inter-dialect
>conflict over the word "freshman", the correct meaning should be decided
>by comparing it against English English.

Even, apparently, when it isn't an English English word ...

N.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Keywords: Mandar
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 05:22:04 GMT

In article <BzJtqF.D8L@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:

>India's independence (or America's, for that matter) doesn't have to
>do anything with this. This is *precisely* what I am trying to make
>clear. Your acceptance of this standard doesn't imply that you are
>*still* a part of the British Empire.

What standard?  Whose?  Where do we find it?  Who speaks it?  The Queen?
Surely not, because when she dies, what if the next monarch (if there is
a next monarch) speaks a little differently?  The BBC?  They have 
forsaken you.  There is no more standard for the news readers.  Who's
standard?  Where do we go to hear it?  London?  Where?  Islington?  
Westminster?  Saint James?  What district in the city speaks Mondar's
ideal standard?  

>>The BBC has forsaken you, by the way
>>
>In spoken English, well maybe. But a majority of the British still
>think that the Queen's English is the purest form.

How do you know?  Have you asked them?


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
Subject: Re: Excrement in the English Language
Keywords: scatology, slang
Organization: Generic American College Kids (G.A.C.K.)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 23:07:58 GMT
Reply-To: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
X-Posted-From: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

charlie@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Charles Geyer) writes:
>
>And that marvelous recent innovation
>
>  Shit happens.

Or, as we said, "Shit hardens."

(And all you can do is scrape it off and go on with life....)

Seth L. Blumberg          \ Warning: This posting has been determined to cause
slb22@columbia.edu (play)   \ cancer in laboratory animals.  Please make sure
sethb@ctr.columbia.edu (work) \ that no white mice are allowed to read it.  
    > No one I know shares my opinions, least of all Columbia University. <
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Use of the apostrophe, or not, with decades
Date: 15 Dec 92 06:47:18 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

>accepted practice.  (Potato's is not the plural of potatoe.)
>                                                   ^^^^^^^
>-- 
>Peter Moylan                      eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au

Is that a typo, or is potato spelled potatoe Down Under?


-- 
"Imagine there are no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope that some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Fresh# / First-year (Re: American English)
Date: 18 Dec 92 10:15:57 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <BzAGFo.5y8@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>Amazing how the very Americans who shouted down the program/me
>distinction, applaud the freshman/first-year distinction!

I wasn't following this one very closely, but for what it's worth:
A first-year can be a first-year undergraduate or a first-year
postgraduate.  A freshman (US) or fresher (UK) is only a first-year
undergraduate.  Or so it seems to me.  Does others' mileage differ?

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
From: rsmith@elli.une.edu.au (Robert James Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: does a word exist for this?
Date: 14 Dec 92 10:22:46 GMT
Organization: University of New England - Northern Rivers (Lismore)

How about 'endogenous' - growing or originating from within.
Because my wife and I are both teachers, a biologist once described
us as 'endogenous'.


--
Robert Smith  Internet:  rsmith@loki.une.edu.au   Phone:  +61 66 ????????
    University of New England, Northern Rivers (Lismore) NSW Australia
-- 
Robert Smith  Internet:  rsmith@loki.une.edu.au   Phone:  +61 66 ????????
    University of New England, Northern Rivers (Lismore) NSW Australia
From: chelf@lunatix.uucp (Chad Helfenberger)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Grammartek Software
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:53:36 GMT
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 255-9121

I'm posting this for a professor in Indiana.  He's looking for a program 
called Grammartek (I think version 5 or 6?).  Can you let me know what type 
of program it is (commercial/pd/shareware), also if it is a good program.  
Thanks.  Email or follow-up is fine.  Thanks!

-- 
Chad Helfenberger
(chelf@lunatix.uucp) 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: American English
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:53:38 GMT

In article <BzAGpB.654@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:

>In article <ByD8xx.354@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca () writes:
>>>In <28706@castle.ed.ac.uk> cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>>>>English is now an international language. Americans may form their own
>>>>special dialect group if they wish. If they think that weight of
>>>>numbers should have something to do with what becomes the standard,
>>>>then they should bow out in favour of the more numerous English
>>>>speakers of India and Pakistan.

>>>It isn't necessary for there to be a single standard of English, but
>>>if you're going to bestow favor on the standard of one region or
>>>another, some consideration should be given to whether or not English
>>>is the native language in the region.

>>America won't win on this count.  We have a number of native languages
>>around here.  I say that "native" doesn't count anyway.  If you speak
>>and I (or an Englishperson, to appease Mandar the Great) can 
>>understand you, then you're an English speaker.  Cool, you count.
>>Don't see any value added in requiring the speakers to have used
>>the language from birth.

>Hey Roger! Are you listening? Here's a chap who doesn't see "native"
>as you define it.

Hey Mandar!  Can you read?  He defines "native" *exactly* as I do.

He doesn't think it's an important criterion for judging whether a
speaker is competent, though.  In short, he disagrees wiht *you* 
on the definition of "native" *and* on the importance of listening
only to a closely defined set of "native speakers."

Roger
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: 18 Dec 92 10:26:19 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1992Dec15.154515.6030@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>In article <BzAFGF.5K5@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec15.022145.24684@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>>>"Is Joan here?"  "No, he's not."  "How about Bob?"  "Yes, he's over
>>>there."
>>
>>"He" is generic DEPENDING UPON THE CONTEXT OF ITS USAGE!
>
>So it's generic when you think it is, and specific when you don't?

Is it possible that you really don't understand why a pronoun which
refers back to "Joan" is specific rather than generic?

Think again.

Think hard.

>Say you tell me:  "If a student comes, give him this envelope".  Is this
>generic or specific?

Generic, of course.

Next question?

>I suggest context will usually cause people to evoke a male when they
>read "he".  I know it does for me . . .

But it works in a different way for others.  (No, I don't mean myself
-- I'm speaking from observation of other people's usage.)

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Something NEW, ferGawdzake! 
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:01:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.174031.18814@pixel.kodak.com> john@liebnitz.ssd.kodak.com (John Hall) writes:
>In article <724481601snz@dstrike.demon.co.uk> dadams@dstrike.demon.co.uk ("David Adams") writes:
>>.... Furthermore people put the knife and fork parallel to
>>one another with the ends in the middle of the plate when they have finished

>That's a custom that has a good, practical origin.  Placing the knife and
>fork parallel on the right side of the plate is a signal that you have
>finished with the plate and it may be removed.  The person removing it can, 
>standing to your right, easily grasp the plate and the silverware with the 
>right hand.  If you left the silverware on the plate willy-nilly, it could 
>take two hands to remove safely.  You run a greater risk of getting a 
>dirty knife or fork dropped in your lap.

But that's not universal!  In some places, when you're done, you criss-cross 
knife and fork, tines over blade.  The server can easily swing the 
fork around to grasp both; that's what thumbs are for.  

Now, that's not the half of it.  The funniest part of American manners
is the passing back-and-forth of the fork between hands, and the placing
of the unused left hand in the lap.  What a circus!

I'm left-handed, and also the son of Europeans, one of whom was raised
in England.  I eat Euro-style, leaving the fork in the left had, but also
eating mashed potatoes tines-up.  And I don't drop the unused hand to the lap,
either.  My mother did teach me to use knives (and scissors!) with my
right hand, which makes things easier.

(I find that, as long as I don't chew with my mouth open, this doesn't 
cause too much disturbance...)

My wife is also lefty, but never learned to cut w/RH.  The two of us
always sit on the left-hand end of the table when we're out to dinner
with lots of people.  Makes the elbow problem easier.

Does all this have to do with language?  You betcha.  Social conventions
are a form of communication; we say as much with our bodies as we do
with our organs of speech.  

And we have to learn new languages when we go from place to place, too.

>Why the convention is to serve from the left and remove from the right is 
>still a mystery to me.

That's an easy one.  If I hold the platter to your left, you can easily
reach across yourself with your dominant right hand and serve yourself from
it.  (Remember -- righthandedness is *still* enforced in some places.)
Clearing from the right follows: the footmen don't get in one anothers'
way.

Yes, foot*men*.  It's that old.

Roger
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: What about the FAQ?  (Was Re: Who vs. Whom (FAQ?))
From: Ray.Nickson@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Ray Nickson)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 08:46:13 GMT
 u><1992Dec10.043006.13085@csi.uottawa.ca><1992Dec10.044510.13456@csi.uottawa.ca> <Bz3IyI.Kn0@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
Organization: Victoria University of Wellington, Wellington, New Zealand

In article <Bz3IyI.Kn0@dcs.ed.ac.uk> pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley) writes:

   >   "... was I", of course.  Boy, I'm slipping!

   In modern English, the verb "be" is transitive.

Nesfield says that "be" is intransitive, and that in `it was I', "I"
is (am?) the complement to "was", not the object -- hence it is in the
nominative.  Compare sentences like `it seems funny', where `seems'
takes a complement, so `funny' is an adjective not an adverb.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
Subject: Re: Something NEW, ferGawdzake! 
Organization: Generic American College Kids (G.A.C.K.)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:57:31 GMT
Reply-To: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
X-Posted-From: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

dadams@dstrike.demon.co.uk ("David Adams") writes:
>
>At least we don't go round shooting each other.... ;->

In high school, my theatrical producer and media teacher was an Irish emigre.
He said once that he wanted to have a T-shirt custom-printed with a view down
the barrel of a revolver on the front and a message on the back saying
"GUNS--It's an American thing.  You wouldn't understand."

ObUsage: Why are there two different and incompatible ways of indicating a
full dash in typed copy ("--" and " - ")? Why do copy-editors insist on the
latter when typesetters insist on the former?

Seth L. Blumberg          \ Warning: This posting has been determined to cause
slb22@columbia.edu (play)   \ cancer in laboratory animals.  Please make sure
sethb@ctr.columbia.edu (work) \ that no white mice are allowed to read it.  
    > No one I know shares my opinions, least of all Columbia University. <
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sp@osf.org (Simon Patience)
Subject: Re: Something NEW, ferGawdzake! 
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:40:35 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.174031.18814@pixel.kodak.com>, john@liebnitz.ssd.kodak.com (John Hall) writes:
> Why the convention is to serve from the left and remove from the right is 
> still a mystery to me.

I would guess that in places where there is more than one waiter (or
should I say server in this group) it prevents the clearer and the new
course provider from coliding. I have once eaten in a restaurant where
there were more waiters per table than people eating at it (it was
predictably expensive). The course changeover (empty plates removed,
full plates replacing) was so fast that you didn't notice it until after 
it had happened.

Simon.

-- 
  Simon Patience
  Open Software Foundation			Phone: +33-76-63-48-72
  Research Institute				FAX:   +33-76-51-05-32
  2 Avenue De Vignate				Email: sp@gr.osf.org
  38610 Gieres, France				       uunet!gr.osf.org!sp
From: evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: some questions
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:42:19 GMT
Reply-To: kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
Distribution: alt
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories

In article <YUJI.92Dec15144316@grape.cms.kyutech.ac.jp> yuji@cms.kyutech.ac.jp (Yuji Nagaishi ) writes:
>If you would permit, I would like to have some intuitive responses whether 
>the following sentences are acceptable or not from English native speaker's 
>point of view.

Well, I'm just an American... :-)

>Also, I would appreciate if you can have some comments on the 
>context, whether they are okey or not, and some reasons why they are so. 
>
>1)  Ann shrieked that there were cockroaches in the caviar.
>2)  Tom shouted that the orange was poisonous.
>3)  John mumbled that he was a genius in mathematics, but he actually isn't.
>4)  Mrs. Farmer grunted that Mary broke the window.
>5)  John grunted that this window is stuck.

All of these are fine, but note that they mean that there was an
actual verbal utterance.  That is, sentence one means that Ann
shrieked something like "Oh, my God! There are cockroaches in the
caviar", not merely that she shrieked *because* she saw a roach.

For some reason "mumble" seems a little awkward in this construction.
"Mutter" would be fine, but if I had to use "mumble" I would probably
phrase it "John mumbled something to the effect that...".  Mumbling
implies that the utterance is incoherent, and your sentence has the
connotation that it was understood.  But I would still classify
sentence three as acceptable.

>6)  I didn't know that cooking requires this much of time and energy!
>7)  I didn't know you have 3 kids.

There are a couple of problems.  First of all the "of" in sentence six
does not belong there.  Second, although I would have no trouble
understanding the sentences (without the "of"), it seems more natural
to put the verb in the relative clause in the past tense:

	I didn't know that cooking required this much time and energy!
	I didn't know you had three kids.

Evan Kirshenbaum		       +------------------------------------
    HP Laboratories		       | C: I'd like to take a few of you back
    3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U |    with me.  To prove I discovered
    Palo Alto, CA  94304	       |    you.
				       | I: What you mean, discover us?  We
    kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com	       |    discover you.  We discover you on
    (415)857-7572		       |    beach here.  Is all how you look
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sp@osf.org (Simon Patience)
Subject: Re: Knives and forks
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:17:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.031200.26273@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser") writes:
> cam@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:
> >
> >The general principle is that dexterous and efficient use of eating
> >tools is grown up and appropriate; inappropriate are childish
> >simplifications due to lack of dexterity. For example, it is better to
> >eat spaghetti with a fork only, if you can manage it neatly and
> >efficiently; but it is better to use a fork and spoon neatly than to
> >make a mess of trying to use a fork only.
> 
> <polite incredulity> Let me get this straight.  You're telling me that the use
> of a pasta spoon to limit the depth of forking when eating spaghetti, though
> considered highly appropriate in Italy, is frowned upon by the British?

Actually, the whole of Italy is frowned upon by the British. 

Simon.

PS Oh alright then, :-)_

-- 
  Simon Patience
  Open Software Foundation			Phone: +33-76-63-48-72
  Research Institute				FAX:   +33-76-51-05-32
  2 Avenue De Vignate				Email: sp@gr.osf.org
  38610 Gieres, France				       uunet!gr.osf.org!sp
From: glen@slate.cs.wisc.edu (Glen Ecklund)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Knives and forks
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:37:03 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences

Sorry about the non-linguistic post.  I've changed the subject so that you can
kill it if you wish.  But I'm probably not the only one curious about this.  

briand@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Brian D Diehm) writes:

>[There is precedent for this last comment. Europeans ridicule American table
>manners, where the fork *must* be transferred from left hand to right after
>cutting meat and before moving it to the mouth. However, this was instituted in
>colonial times because the colonists were afraid (I don't know if they were
>justified) that if they didn't have table manners *better* than the motherland,
>they would be looked down upon as uncultured rustics, half reverted to Indian
>savagery.]

So how did the Europeans come to use the backs of their forks?  (Or is it
ethnocentric of me to think that the convex side is the back?   Are European
forks decorated on the convex side?  US forks are pretty on the concave side,
and the convex side often has the name of the manufacturer.)
When I eat peas or mashed potatoes, I use the fork in my right hand, like a
spoon.  But I've seen Europeans mash peas onto the backs of their forks with
a knife.  Now that strikes me as odd.  Is that a reaction against switching?
Is it the Euro-norm?

Personally, while I grew up as a US fork-switcher, I'm now a vegetarian and
rarely use a knife, meaning that I almost always hold my fork in my right hand.
I cut most things with the side of my fork, which I suppose is not done
much outside the US (and maybe Canada?).  When I do use my knife, I often
eat Euro-style while cutting, then switch back.  I should also mention that I'm
right-handed.
-- 
Every child shall be treated with complete respect.

Glen Ecklund     glen@cs.wisc.edu   (608) 262-1318 Office, 262-1204 Dept. Sec'y
Department of Computer Sciences        1210 W. Dayton St., Room 3355
University of Wisconsin, Madison       Madison, Wis. 53706  U.S.A.
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: American English
Date: 15 Dec 92 06:52:32 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

Amazing how the very Americans who shouted down the program/me
distinction, applaud the freshman/first-year distinction!

                                                             Mandar.
-- 
"Imagine there are no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope that some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Some clarifications - Please read!!!
Date: 13 Dec 92 10:18:39 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <hayesstw.129.723892669@risc1.unisa.ac.za> hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za (Steve Hayes) writes:
<In article <723810096snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz> hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson) writes:
<
<>  > This was not necessarily a good idea, and I hereby apologise to the
<>  > Australian a.u.e'ers for leaving them out.
<>
<>Keep apologising... you've got more countries to go.

Continents, actually.

(include 'oceania *apology-list*)

<Several more ...

(include 'africa *apology-list*)

Next, please?

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
From: mckeonj@ul.ie
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Yes and No
Date: 18 Dec 92 09:49:14 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

If one is posed a question in the negative or indirect form, i.e.
"Do you not find it cold in here?"
Then it is difficult to know whether to answer "Yes" or "No".
The sensible and courteous answer would be,
"No, I do not (find it cold in here)"
which in fact is the mode normally used in Ireland and the
Irish Commonwealth; Irish Gaelic simply does not have the
words for YES and NO (which makes our bilingual referenda fun)
However, this construct of repeating the question verb seems to
grate on the ear of the "mainland" English speakers.
The old words "Aye" and "Nay", which were used to affirm or deny,
have fallen out of use (except in Parliament and the Royal Navy).
So what shall we say, in answer to such a question; and it is
the nature of the human to pose such questions, the direct form
seeming somehow hostile?
-- 
"If England sleeps, shall Ireland dream?" : Se/an macEoin
-------------------------------------------------------------------
John McKeon, Material Science Dept. University of Limerick, Ireland