HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: Five sides...
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:52:59 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.180458.11596@gserv1.dl.ac.uk>
   S.R.Carlo@daresbury.ac.uk  (S.R. Carlo) writes:
[discussion of five points of a pentacle...]
>
>Have you thought that the 5 points could be linked to the Chinese 5 elements...
>given in 'productive order' :water ->wood ->fire ->earth ->metal ->water
>The element of air is included as an all encompassing one that links everything.
>The controlling patterns are: metal cuts wood
>	wood holds back earth
>	water puts out fire
>	earth controls water flow (ambiguous I know)
>Mail me if you want to know more...it might take a while...I'm preping a file
>for use in a UK based BB

Don't forget the universal cycle:

  and scissors cut paper
  and paper covers rock
  and rock breaks scissors
  and scissors cut paper...

or

  and she tells two friends
  and she tells two friends
  and she tells two friends
  and she tells two friends...

(Man, these pattern thingamabobs are friggin amazing!)

Murray
The Absolutely Amazed

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
Organization: Sophomore, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 02:26:04 -0500 
From: Daniel Patrick Schanbacher <ds7o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Green pentagonal pentacles? (was Re: wearing pagan/pentacle jewelry)
	<2B5C4995.14252@news.service.uci.edu>

Excerpts from netnews.alt.pagan: 19-Jan-93 Re: Green pentagon pentacle..
Janis Maria Cortese@skid (808)

> How many letters are in the alphabet they code"  If there are 25 or
> fewer, then five marks falls out quite naturally, without necessitating
> any mystical correspondence.

Well, there are in fact 25 letters in the ogham alphabet. But they are
broken up into 5 groups of 5
 carvings (3 groups of 5 for the purpose of divination), so there must
be some mystic numerology 
significance somewhere. Also, one of the letters, the 5th i think,
actually is associated with the
 pentacle, at least in the version i have. the version i have, used by
celtic druids, is supposedly 2500 
years old, which is pretty recent considering how much earlier other
cultures use it. The oldest
 culture to use it seems to be Sumerian. 

But how did the pentacle make its way from Sumeria to the Celts? Or,
since its such a fundamental
 symbol, did it spontaneously get generated, say, among the Pictish
peoples? How/when did the
 pentacle get to Ireland?

BTW, ive been told its possible to take lots of copper wire, and
bend/wrap it into a pentagonal pentacle,
 then soak it in water till it turns green. but im not an artist, and im
afraid whatever i make that 
way will fall apart, so im still looking. any tips appreciated.

			--- Dan "an outlex between the lines
of Ragonar Blaubarb ant Horrild Hairwire" Shem
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: "Winds' Four Quarters"
Date: 23 Jan 1993 06:46:45 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

In article <1jqkqkINN4o1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
>
>Well, Misty is indeed a Wiccan high priestess, 

 Really? Has she told you this herself? I have had friends (who should
have known better) ask her about her relation to Wicca and her response
was that her religion was a private matter and not something to be
discussed publically. If she is Wiccan, she has made it pretty clear that
it isn't to be discussed and she has gone out of her way NOT to state her
religion before.

 If you can't substantiate why you say she is an HPS, I will assume you
are just responding to the rumors that accompany her because of her Diane
Tregarde books.
From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why Science Fiction?
Date: 21 Jan 1993 16:55:26 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: mickey.cc.utexas.edu

Depending on how specifically you draw your lines, I don't like
science fiction myself -- I enjoy fantasy novels, both historical and
modern, but I don't like hard-core sf compelte with rivets.  Now, a
lot of fantasy has elements of sf and vice versa (for instance,
Patricia Kennealy's Keltiad series has computers and space ships but
it's basically fantasy), and so the line blurs pretty easily.  I tend
to find myself in the sf/fantasy section of the bookstore quite often.
However, I'm not a genre person, and I tend to read things no matter
what the publishing company prints on the spine of the book.

As to why many pagans read such stuff, I think it's more the case that
many pagans are vociferous readers, and many are intelligent, and also
perhaps not as mainstream as other folks -- that seems to be the
profile of an sf/fantasy reader rather than a pagan.  So I think that
it's just many of us who happen to be pagan also happen to be in the
sf/fantasy reader demographic, so to speak.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth...

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: tratclif@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Tracy Ratcliff)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Free Book
Date: 28 Jan 93 00:54:32 GMT
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens

In article <1993Jan27.190113.3603@news.cs.brandeis.edu> kenyon@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>Along the lines of some previous postings, listing the names and addresses
>of certain religeous orders, I noticed an ad on TV for a free copy of the
>Book of Mormon. The number to call is 1-800-922-4200 ( or it may be -4280 ),
>and they will give you a copy.  Anyone who is doing any comparative religion
>studies might find this useful.

Ick!  I picked up a copy at a library book sale years ago.  IMHO (which is 
shared by an LDS friend  of mine) it's an almost impenetrable pseudo-
Elizabethan mess (NOT a flame against any LDS people -- it's just that
Joseph Smith was not a great writer).  I picked up another book later which
is a modern English introduction to the narrative of the Book of Mormon --
never set down and read it, if anyone's interested I'll try and dig it out.
From: liam%alehaus@brewich.hou.tx.us (liam)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: []
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 13:37:21 CST
Organization: The Alehaus, a Brewer's Witch affiliate, alehaus@brewich.hou.tx.us

txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling) writes:

> >My worst materialistic frenzies to date have taken place in nurseries
> >and garden stores.
> I know the feeling. You walk in, see something that your sure you dont have
> its on sale, the monies in your pocket and you find your self saying 
> I have room, I know I do, I can find it.
> As for afording things I tend to by all my plants in the 4 inch size.
> K-mart tends to Have a sail on them every once in a wighle at 2 for 3$
> bout my weping fig that way its curently in a pot thats around 10 inches
> and I dwarfed it some what. The trunk and some of the brances are braded.
> Also got my dragon palm that way. The leaves get such a beutiful red as they
> grow.
> 
> Elf-Kin

        I know what you mean, put me in a nusery and wacth me go broke in 
a matter of minutes...especialy when it comes to herbs :).  Speaking of 
which, does anyone knowof a place where I can get my hands on angellica 
(angellica archangelica) plants by mail order? ( I have run out of luck 
trying to find it here in Houston)
                                        Thanks:)
                                             Liam (my garden My Sanity)

------------------
liam%alehaus@brewich.hou.tx.us
Origin: The Alehaus -- Houston, TX -- 
     If you don't vote....DON'T BITCH
                                -unknown
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: body paints
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:39:09 GMT
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: intercon.com

One trick that works with carbon pigments is to use a solution
containing both a detergent and ammonia.  Pen cleaner is designed for
this, but is expensive.  I have found that plain old Windex (or other
sorts of glass cleaner) work fine.  As a calligrapher, I often find my
fingers, furniture, and any number of other things occasionally stained
with carbon black, and Windex works on almost all of them.  Skin is no
problem; fabric might be more difficult, but it's worth washing the
stuff with a cup or so of ammonia thrown into the washer along with
the soap.

NOTE: DO NOT MIX AMMONIA AND CHLORINE BLEACH!  This will cause a
chemical reaction that produces chlorine gas, which is quite hazardous.


Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation
From: S.R.Carlo@daresbury.ac.uk (S.R. Carlo)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Five sides...
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:04:58 GMT
Organization: SERC Daresbury Lab., Warrington, U.K.

In article <108104@bu.edu> uni@acs.bu.edu (Shaen Bernhardt) writes:
>
>With regard to the five points of a five pointed star...
>
>When one considers the five points to represent the 4 "elements" and 
>"Spirit"  (i.e. earth water air fire spirit..)  Which points represent
>which elements?
>
>Is there a distinction in the penticle?  What other representations are
>attributed to the star?
>
>I would assume the top point to represent spirit.. but... ?
>
>Thanks in advance...
>blessed be.
>-- 
>uni@acs.bu.edu  ->  Public Keys by finger and/or request
>Soverignty is the sign of a brutal past.
*******************************************
Have you thought that the 5 points could be linked to the Chinese 5 elements...
given in 'productive order' :water ->wood ->fire ->earth ->metal ->water
The element of air is included as an all encompassing one that links everything.
The controlling patterns are: metal cuts wood
	wood holds back earth
	water puts out fire
	earth controls water flow (ambiguous I know)
Mail me if you want to know more...it might take a while...I'm preping a file
for use in a UK based BB
From: mtf@vipunen.hut.fi (Antti Lahelma)
Subject: Re: wearing pagan/pentacle jewelry
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:54:28 GMT

In <C13tAJ.B5q@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

>Aren't we confusing at least two symbols here?  The circle-with-inscribed-
>cross is not a swastika but is most certainly used by Nazi organizations -
>it's one of the commonest signs incorporated into British National Party
>graffiti, and their US analogues use it too.  Surely this rules out most
>pagans using it in public?  Whatever it might mean to *you*, it's perfectly
>rational for any of the Nazis' potential victims to take it as a threat in
>the same league as wearing a KKK T-shirt.

 It's sad to hear that. Prior to this, I only knew of a certain smallish
norwegian (?) neo-nazi group who used the sun-wheel as their sign. I didn't 
know it was that widespread (*sigh*). Well, over here, at least, it is still 
a fairly neutral symbol - most people aren't familiar with it, and those who
are, associate it with the sun, medieval christianity or even "paganism"
(even though neo-paganism is practically unheard of here), but not with nazism.
So, I will continue wearing it, but I guess I'll have to hide it when going
abroad.

>And the idea that a reversed swastika means chaos/evil/bad luck or whatever
>is pure urban legend. 

 Is it really? I read from a "Dictionary of Symbols" (can't remember who
it was by) exactly the same thing as Paul said. I don't know how reliable
a source it was, it could still be an UL, but at least it had made a fairly 
authoritative-looking dictionary...

--
Antti Lahelma		GNOTHI SEAUTON
mtf@saha.hut.fi		 TUNNE ITSESI	"Jumalat ovat pakanoille suosiollisia"
From: emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Subscriptions
Date: 25 Jan 1993 18:03:40 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: hernes-sun

In article <1993Jan23.213242.12633@wam.umd.edu> angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.) writes:
>In article <JJRTXB3w164w@tweekco.uucp> alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard) writes:
>>and could someone (preferably a current subscriber) post an address
>>and subscription info for Circle Network News?
>
>I'm not a current subscriber, but here it is anyway:

[deleted]

Don't forget the Pagan Muse and World Report
C/O BAPA
P.O. Box 850
Fremont, CA 94537

$23 a year.

Eric

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: bast@wam.umd.edu (Jaguar)
Subject: Re: Body Paints
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 03:51:26 GMT


Woad can be used as a body paint.

Now time for me to comment on my pet peeve:
Woad in itself is not a hallucenagenic... In olden times they may have
mixed it along with other plant/plant extracts that were... but the dye
itself is not.

Woad when painted on the skin gives a nice, dark/nayvy blue tyope 
color.

I buy the block of dye, pound it up in a mortar... and put the resulting poweder
in a small (teeny tine)y ) jar. Then I add a bit of rubbing alcholol
to it. I use the brush to mix up the paint in the lid of the jar as I go
along, as well as to paint.

Other sources say you can use eggwhite... I find this causes the dye to
flake off the skin..
I was using water as a solvent for the paint for a while, but switched to
rubbing alchol, as it is more sanitary when you are painting alot of 
people, and also it seems to let more of the dye dissolve than water does.

Paint on clean dry skin.... works best on areas that are NOT very fuzzy...
You can 'set' the paint by sprinking baby powder or cornstarch on it, and
then dusting it off.
Jaguar
On the woad again...
Pictish..
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Magic Shop
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 28 Jan 93 01:36:56 GMT

In article <1993Jan28.000849.4377@netcom.com> myddryn@netcom.com (Le Mauvais Sophiste) writes:
>Definitly, networking and ritual tools. And try not to buy into those very
>expensive prefab tools. I've searching too long for a nice athame that 
>doesn't cost a fortune. 
>  And most importantly, open near me :)

Oh, just use anything.  My athame is a butterfly knife I got in
Tijuana.  Seriously, I've seen people cut gates and cast circles with
plastic knives from a lunchbag.  

I do like the fancy tools, though.  One possibility is using a letter
opener if you aren't going to use the knife to CUT stuff really.  I've
seen some that are inexpensive and just gorgeous -- especially the ones
that are just polished and shaped flat pieces of agate and chalcedony.
They are really beautiful.

Blessings,
Janis
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why Science Fiction?
Date: 21 Jan 93 10:08:54 GMT
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

traite@dante.harvard.edu (Shirley Traite) writes:

> I was just wondering does anyone have any ideas as to why so many wiccans/
> pagans/neopagans into science fiction??  Sometimes I feel like I'm the
> only one out there who doesn't  read science fiction.  My preferred 
> recreational reading tends towards historical fiction, social/political 
> histories (epecially of the Middle Ages... well I AM in the SCA), mythology,
> anthropology, herbals and  historically inspired fantasy.
> (M. Zimmer-Bradley, Diana Paxton, K. Kurtz etc) 

There are a number of reasons for this, ranging from the impact on the
pagan movement of Robert A. Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land
(can anybody say Church of All Worlds?) to the basic idea that science
fiction / fantasy readers get involved with these areas to get a look
at alternate realities; paganism is a sheaf of realities different
from the mainstream religious realities we grew up with. And I am
familiar with the writers you mention. Quite familiar, as the best
place to find most of their books in either bookstore or library
is in the science fiction section.
Blessings,
A.Lizard

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.Lizard Internet Addresses:
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM        (preferred)
[path]!pacbell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above)
alizard@gentoo.com (backup)
PGP2.0 public key available on request.
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Interesting Group
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:21:08 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <21JAN199309300453@pavo.concordia.ca>, a_weitz@pavo.concordia.ca (WEITZMAN, ANDREW) writes...
> 
(....Andrew the Wandering Jew describes his religious group......)
>This group is known as the Truth Missionaries of Positive Accord (as you can
>see, snappy names isn't our strong suit).  Anyways, TMC+Aers believe
>it a triple Godhead of God, Goddess, and Jesus.  Jesus' birth is considered
>proof of the existence of a Goddess--for GENETIC reasons.  The explanation
> is basically that females only have X chromosones, and only God could
>have providede the Y chromosone needed for Jesus' birth.  Since the Bible
> (they are a touch literal in this regard) bans masturbation as the Sin
> of Onan, God as a moral being could not logically commit a sin (tell that
> to Salemites, though).  Soooo--a female divine being was neccessary to
>fertilize the egg to form an embryo.  Said embryo was later placed in
> Mary, making Jesus both Son of God and Son of Man.  We may not be hot
> at titles, but TMC+Aers are WAY good at creative theology.

(....clip....)


	You know, I didn't think you guys where still around! Last I heard 
from the TMC+A was in 1986! A local church was loudly proclaiming your 
group "pornographic heritics" or some other such. I wrote (after stealing 
the address from the local church!) and got some material from someone or 
another that differentiates from your above stated conception myth. Is this 
the updated version of the conception story, or are their different 
versions of exactly what happened? In the version I heard the Goddess 
carried the seed of God to Mary who provided the ovum. Otherwise, Mary is a 
surrogate mother to a completely divine child and the sacrafice of Jesus's 
life is meaningless to humanity because he is in no way "man", just "God". 

	I find the whole "science combined with faith" approach refreshing 
and in my correspondence with your people noticed a particular level of 
tollerence uncommon in many other christians. I for one am glad of it.

			- Ashley
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Subject: Re: the next generation...?
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:50:44 GMT

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>Gotcha!  Just let the kid grow up with a sense of logic and rationality
>sbout the universe, and that the universe is open to questions, and that
>there are some things that you CAN get the answers to, and some things
>that no one yet knows the answers to, and some things beyond asking
>questions . . . They'll get the hang of it for themselves. 

Gee Janis.. you sound like a Unitarian Universalist pagan ..:-^)

Seriously.. I have been asked to present a mini look at paganism for the
high schoolers in the local UU church this week-end and am honored but
somewhat daunted by the prospect. For those of you who don't know, the
Religious Education program for UU high school kids includes a program
where they get exposure to several different paths and traditions so that
they CAN develop their own beliefs based on the information available as
Janis has so wisely suggested.

Anyway, I am daunted, because I don't know if I can do justice to the subject
in an hour or if I can `represent' paganism with my limited knowledge, but
I am going to try. It is interesting that the group facilitator has asked
me to do so, when the minister has asked me not to proclaim my paganism
publicly. I am going to do a small circle casting to give them the experience.
Hopefully this will explain it better than my words.  

BTW..Keith is it? I don't mean to sound unfairly critical, but you sound as
if you view marriage like getting a job or something. I would hope that you
would have discussed religion and kids and philosophies sufficiently with
a prospective partner to resolve any such potential conflicts BEFORE
entering into a commitment such as marriage.

Blessings
al



>Blessings,
>Janis 

>>"All the Gods are one God, and all the Goddesses are one Goddess, and there
>>is one Initiator." 

>Why, with the last word of this sentence, do I imagine some deity
>somewhere with a wooden paddle, smacking souls in heaven on the ass
>while they say, "Thank you sir/madam may I have another!"  Just sick, I
>guess.
From: Vossdavi@student.msu.edu (Lisa  Ann)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Delurk
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Date: 23 Jan 1993 04:56:47 GMT
Organization: Chaotic Goods
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cemmac13.cem.msu.edu

In article <1993Jan22.182429.6335@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>,
boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan) wrote:
> 
> 
> In article <20JAN199320322778@pavo.concordia.ca>,
> a_weitz@pavo.concordia.ca (WEITZMAN, ANDREW) writes:
> 
> > BTW: about the "black athame or white" thread--my
> > fellow Wiccan, black athames are for formalwear, but
> > go with white for that refreshing, casual look.
> 
> Andrew,
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't know WHERE you get your information
> on etiquette!  Please!  White athame is MUCH more formal
> than Black!
> 
> 				- - Steve

> Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
> April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!

     Personally, I like to color coordinate mine with my earrings or
lipstick. 

     Blessings, Lisa Ann, or she who accessorizes beautifully.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Birthing men... 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Jan 93 19:14:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.034131.19299@wam.umd.edu> bast@wam.umd.edu (Jaguar) writes:
>
>theoreticaly, it is possible for a man to carry a child.
>It seems one day a woman who had a hysterectomy fond herself pregnant.
>The fetus has attached to her bowel.....
>Do not recall if the article stated that she carried it to term or not.
>However, this would imply that it could be possible for a man to carry 
>a child.
>Of course, you would have to open 'em up, put the fertilized egg in...
>hope it implants and does not trigger an infection if it does not...
>Delivery would be by C-section ofourse...
>Granted, this would not be the easiest, cheapest and most effective way
>to have childeren.
>For some reason I just can not see a male volunteering for this either.
>But perhaps that is just becauese I have meet the wrong men....
>Jaguar
>let them have kittens...

Think of it this way.  A woman bleeds profusely from her genitals
starting at puberty.  Men of course, would have to cut theirs open and
MAKE it bleed, and they would have to hope it doesn't trigger an
infection.  You would have to find someplace to make the cut, of course.

This would, however, not be the easiest, cheapest, and most effective
way of obtaining genital blood.

Many men have volunteered for this, and even celebrated it to the
express exclusion of females -- see the bar mitzvah and it's PC and much
more underrated cousin the bat mitzvah.  Someone once said that many
rites for manhood involve taking over the functions that women perform
naturally.  Besides, many male rituals of bonding and all that seem to
involve stoic bearing of great pain.  This would be no different.  

Blessings,
Janis