HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT .380, Colt Mustang, or other?
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:57:08 GMT
Organization: ScylaxCorp

#The most important attribute of any gun is the shooter.  Massad Ayoob
#tells of interviewing one NYC police officer who engated in a shoot-out
#with an armed robber carrying an M1911.  The officer prevailed unhurt
#and the felon didn't.  Ayoob asked him "didn't you feel out-gunned facing
#a man with a .45 auto?".  The cop replied:
#
#>"My man, shootin's straight with my .38 beats him givin' me
#jive with his .45"
#
#Yup.  I know all the wonderful things about Glocks, but somehow I
#just can't get enthusiastic about them.  Whoever described them as
#"Combat Tupperware" pretty much captured my feelings.  Maybe when
#I see the price tag on the new Sig/Sauer P229, I'll reconsider.

I can't argue with that.  Shooting expertise is a whole different
bag.  Guns are improving to make easier the task they are intended
for, and some designs are proving better than others.  In the 
hands of equally skilled shooters the odds are in favor of who has
the better armament.  In combat, one has to do one's best to eliminate 
as many uncertainties as possible.  God knows many will remain beyond
our control.

I felt like you about Glocks for a long time.  I thought my SIG
228 was unsurpassed.  It looks a lot better than any Glock too. 
Then, I rented a Glock 19.  Hummmmm,  damned good tight groups I
got with it, and the sights I had to admit made target acquisition
easier than the SIG (for me that is).  Another day I rented out
a Glock 22, same thing.   It is hard to quarrel with results. 
I bought a Glock 21 and I have to recognise I shoot better than with
the 228, in every way I try.  The good sights and those tight groups
are there every time.   I use Combat Tupperware for my defense now,
what's next?
From: eburns@ADS.COM (Edward Burns)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Need Blueing Recommendation
Date: 11 Nov 92 22:19:54 GMT
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems, Mtn. View, CA (415) 960-7300

Can anyone recommend a good gunsmith to reblue my
shotgun?  I can probably go anywhere in the South or
East Bay and Penisnula areas.  

Thanks for any help.

Ed

eburns@ads.com
From: tarl@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Fluted Rifle Barrels
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:51:36 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <9211101624.AA15592@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU>, C96@vm.urz.Uni-Heidelberg.de (Alexander EICHENER) writes:
# #Every once in a while, a rifle shows up at a range with a fluted barrel.
# #[...]
# #   * Less stress as some of the metal is removed.
# 
# ?? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Less barrel weight means less strain on a piece of steel supported by 
only one end.

Probably significant in some of the truly large barrels out there. I have
an AMAC 5100 (.50 BMG), which has a fluted barrel with an exterior diameter
of well over an inch - with the flutes it only weighs 30-odd pounds, most
of it in the barrel. I shudder to think what it would weigh with a solid
barrel of the same dimensions.
-- 
         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:26:59 GMT
Organization: Indiana University


I think Jim is doing a dandy job at moderating.  If indeed his policy
is to forward most political type messages to talk.politics.guns, then
I don't see censorship being performed.  I moderate a small BBS here
at IU, and it's been my experience that you will have a few folks who
gripe *no matter what policy you adopt*.  Don't let it get you down
Jim.  Also, your editorial comments are appreciated *far* more than
seeing a seperate post on it.  Why create additional traffic?  As long
as you include the fact that it is the moderator talking, which hasn't
been a problem.  If there's to be any vote, I vote for keeping it as
is.

Back to technical stuff.  I've reloaded over 550 rounds of ammo on a
single stage press over the last two days, what a job!


-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #Space For Rent
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Introducing New Shooters to the Sport (Part II)
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:38:15 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

I have found that this is THE best method to make pro-gunners out of
the undecided, or even the slightly anti-gun person.
Take em to the range once, and they're hooked.
All of us should take as many people shooting as possible.
(stress safety, start with a .22, and offer several firearms to shoot)
It works for me.
From: minh@inst-sun1.tmc.edu (Minh Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:54:26 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, USA

Personally, I like the rec.guns newsgroup the way it is.
Our moderator has a great sense of humour and a
tremendous amount of work in moderating this
newsgroup, together with all his valuable time.
I have no objection about the "moderator comments",
they add to the posts either technical comments,
humour or order to make this newsgroup a pleasant
place to visit.
Keep up the good job, Magnum.

  == Minh ==
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What was the Steyr GB?
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:58:18 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


In article <9211050717.aa29752@s.s.ms.uky.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
#wasn't that the big overly square boat-anchor looking thing?
#9mm pistol that was THE ugliest thing i have ever seen.
#am i thinking of the wrong thing here?

Yes, that was it.  Ugly as hell, way too big (maybe a little smaller than
a Desert Eagle) 9mm that held about 19 rounds.  Worst looking thing
(and most useless 9mm pistol) since the H+K VP70 (something like that),
which was designed as a machine pistol but sold here as a semi-auto 9mm.
It also had a high capacity (18-20 rounds), but was just too big.  The
Berettas and Glocks came out and showed how it should be done.

-- 
John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Class III again
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:27:01 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

#What about the legal but unregistered pre-1981 auto-sears floating around? Is
#there a legal way to convert a semi auto rifle into full auto using these?

Ain't no such thing when installed in a gun or posessed in conjunction 
with sufficient parts to make a gun.

It is legal to posess a subset of machine gun parts, except the reciever
which is a gun per-se, (but not necessarily a machine gun) until
assembled.

Auto sears MAY be lawfully posessed, but if you posess one and also
posess (or have under your control in any manner, like have stored or
accessable elsewhere) a semi auto which can accept it you MAY be
legally in posession of a machine (the "may" is used by the BATF since
there are no clear court intrepretations of this one).

Only a *pre 1986* registered auto sear may be installed in a semi auto
gun to make a legal full auto gun (exceptions exist for manufacturers
and dealers catering to law enforcement who have requested a
demonstation of the partifular model gun the class III dealer wishes
to get).

Ok, now for a summary of class III gun types (legal categories) :

(1) Pre 1986 transferable - May be transfered between civilians after
record check, transfer tax payment of $200 and BATF approval.

(2) Pre 1986 dealer samples - May be posessed by dealers as
demonstrators.  Dealer may transfer these to himself as individual
upon dissolution of business (must pay transfer tax.).  Dealer does
NOT need request for demonstration from law enforcement agency to get
one of these samples.

(3) Post 1986 non transferable - may not be posessed by civilians. :(

(4) Post 1986 dealer sample - may be obtained by class III dealer when
law enforcement agency has requested demonstration (request on
letterhead required for transfer).  Dealer must dispose of this class
of samples when business is disolved (note: there is a $500 year
"special occupational tax" required ot be a class III dealer).  May
NOT be transfered to civilians.


note: "Pre/Post 1986" is often refered to as "pre/post May 19" [ the
exact date was May 19 1986 ]

Rob Boudrie rboudrie@chpc.org
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .44 Special for self defense?
Date: 7 Nov 92 00:34:53 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh



     A friend of mine has fallen in love with a revolver he's seen in a
local shop.  It's a Taurus, one they just started importing recently.
While I can't remember the model number, it's a five-shot,
adjustable-sight, 3", stainless revolver chambered for .44 S&W Special.

     About the revolver itself, has anyone tried any of Taurus's .44
Spl's?  (I know that they're relatively new, but figured I'd ask...)

     About the caliber: .44 Spl isn't a caliber I've seen much about.
Do any of the ammunition manufacturers offer any of the high-performance
JHP's, or any of the exotic stuff (Black Talon, Glaser, etc.) for the
.44 Special?

     About the sights: fixed are a better choice (IMHO) for a defensive
handgun, but is there any way for adjustable revolver sights to be
modified for lowlight/defensive use?  (Replacing the front insert with a
Tritium insert, buying a three-dot system - I don't know what he has in
mind...it's his gun.)

     Personally, I'm just gettin' a Colt Lightweight Officers' Model...

     If anyone has any answers, thanks muchly.

--
David Winters
winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu
From: lklawson@acs.harding.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: LASERs
Date: 10 Nov 92 03:16:40 GMT
Organization: Harding University

Whoops!  Sorry, guys.  I made a technical mistake in my last post on LASERs.
I refered to part of the lasing process as "ionizing" the LASER element.
As some of you probably realized, ionization refers to giving an atom a 
positive or negative charge.  This is not what happens with the active e
element in a LASER.  The corect term that I should have used is "excite".
This is what actually happens.  An energy form such as light or electricity
is fed into the lasing element and this energy boosts the energy of the atom
and move the eltrons outward in thier valence shells.  This is an unstable
way for the atom to exist and it will slough off the extra energy in the
form of light in order to drop the electron back to it's former spot.  Sorry
about that guys, you can shoot me later.  I take that back (I almost forgot
what group I was in!).

Kirk Lawson
LKLAWSON@ACS.HARDING.EDU
"Now, once again, what's this red button for?" -Bill Clinton
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Class III again
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:00:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: chpc.1992Nov6.161749.7331
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma


#(1) If I empty my checking account to purchase an already-register auto-sear
#    and go through all the legal processes to transer the title ( is this
#    the correct term? ) to me, will I have to pay such a high premium again to
#    purchase a new one after the old auto-sear breaks?

Yes, unless the old one can be repaired (by welding, etc.).   It is *NOT* 
legal to "make" a new one with the same number and destroy the old one.
Although there may be some smiths who would do this, DON'T LET THEM!.  If they
ever get in trouble, they will give you up in an instant (deniability is
tough for a professional; impossible for an amateur).  You would be screwing
with a felony conviction.

A better alternative, if you can find one, is to buy a "reciever" gun - the
registered recieved is likely to last virtually *forever* and present less of
a wearout risk than the auto sear.  For this reason, "reciever" guns generally
sell for more than otherwise identical "sear guns".

#
#(2) Am I expected to receive lots of trouble from the law enforcement people?
#    Will my name appear in some sort of list? Is the rock-'n-roll fun worth 
#    the troubles?
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:24:41 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:

#In article <01GQO74NC19U8ZF2CM@CC.USU.EDU> slkdh@cc.usu.edu writes:
##A shotgun works, too.  But I don't give much stock
##to the psychological effect of noise, if a loud gun is going to scare them,
##then most any gun will scare them.

#I'm not so sure: A friend once _accidentally_ scared a burgaler into 
#jumping out a second story window. She had just finished cleaning it,
#and racked a round to see that the action was working smoothly. As
#soon as she did, she heard braking glass in the next room: The
#window had been pried/forced part-way open, the broken _outwards_
#(with the frame bent and a fair amount of blood on it). Someone was
#running away down the alley outside and below the window. Apparently
#someone had forced the window open, squeezed in, heard the shotgun
#being racked and _left_ in quite a hurry...

	I heard this same story!   We must have the same FOAFs!
8-)
		Urban ledgend?
Jim D

#                                                Frank Crary
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .32-20 winchester questions
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:49:24 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <9211092024.AA14255@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:
#I just purchased a nice Browning 53 (a .32-20 lever-action, based on
#the Winchester 92).*
#
---delete---
#
#I plan on reloading (the local price for .32-20...if you can find any...
#is attention-getting), and I'm looking around for sources of supply
#for some stuff.
#
#Anyone have any suggestions for reasonable suppliers of factory .32-20?
#(I have to get brass from *somewhere*, and I plan on using only factory
#stuff for the first couple hundred rounds or so.)  Natchez?
#
#Source of bullets for reloading the slightly-used brass?  (I've been
#looking around for information about reloading, and I've been seeing
#the bullets described typically as 90 to 115gr, but with diameters
#ranging from .308 to .313".  Am I correct in gleaning from various
#seemingly-contradictory sources that .311 or .312 jacketed bullets
#are what I really want to be using?
#
#Any suggestions would be appreciated, of course...
#
#* Well, the store has the money, *I* have to cool off for a couple
#  of weeks.  I get to take it home just before Thanksgiving, though.
#  :}
#
Actually, I've seen new .32-20 brass around in sizeable quantities
at gun shows; I was somewhat surprised.  I'd try Midway, and I think
I saw .32-20 cases at our local wonderful-gun-store-out-in-the-boonies
Kesselring's.  Kesselring's takes credit-card orders, is in beautiful
downtown (8)) Alger, Washington, (206) 724-3113.  If they've got it,
they've got (literally) _buckets_ of it, along with _lots_ of other
less-common brass.

I can't imagine Browning barreling this gun for other than .308
jacketed/.311 cast.  I would think that any .30 GI carbine
bullet would be fine in this caliber, since I'm told the carbine
round was designed to simulate a rimless .32-20.

When you fire this gun, I'd be curious to know
if it _bulges_ the primers (not cratered, not backed-out, bulged).
The only two Winchester 92s I've fired were in .25-20, and bulged
the primers strangely.  It acted as if the action had sprung a bit,
although the primers looked low-pressure.  I would expect the
Browning to be a bit stronger than the Winchester. 

Hope this helps.


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trajectory Question
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:51:00 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

I've had a couple of killer experiments suggested which could very possibly
settle some of the questions which have been raised in this thread.  This
is a call for critique of these suggestions and also a call for volunteers
if anyone feels especially generous.

#From Doug:
If in fact the gov't model's frame is loosely connected to the hand during 
the bullet's time in the barrel so that the hand doesn't greatly affect 
the point of impact, then if said gov't model is suspended by strings and
soft springs, its point of impact should likewise not be greatly affected.

#From Alan:
If the gov't model's slide moves essentially straight back because it is
disconnected from the frame while the revolver tips back because its barrel
is solidly connected to the frame, then if you somehow lock the slide of the
gov't model to its frame, the gov't model should now have a higher point of
impact.

Great suggestions, huh?  Any comments?  Any holes to be poked in these
suggested procedures?  Any volunteer experimentalists?  (Hope, hope)

I have one comment on Alan's suggestion and that is that since the c.g. of
the gov't model is so much closer to the boreline than the c.g. of the 
revolver, I don't think you will see a 1 foot rise in impact at 25 yards as
you do with the revolver.  Maybe only half that or a little less because
as I established earlier, the gov't model already rises almost 2" at 25 yards
from the aim point.  This be no means invalidates the experiment, just
quantifies it a little.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: bobwest%code3@uunet.UU.NET (Bob Westover)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: How to get a FFL and Can I Still Buy an HBAR in Calif?
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:23:13 GMT
Organization: 3M HIS

In article <1dqgf8INNj4c@neuro.usc.edu> merlin@neuro.usc.edu (merlin) writes:
#Is there any way to convert a blackmarket M-16 to legal status?
#Thanks, Merlin

	Only way I know of is with a band-saw or welding torch.
	Your freedom is too precious; stay away from it!
--
##############################################################################
"A gun is only a tool, no better, no worse than the one using it.".......Shane
##############################################################################
-- 
 There was a young man from Dwight ....... |        bobwest@code3.code3.com
 Who traveled faster than light; ......... | Gluecklichkeit ist Recht haben!  
 Taking a trip one day, in a relative way, |      Freiheit ist Rechte haben! 
 He arrived the previous night! .......... | Legalize Updoc!!!         ...bw
From: weba@lk-hp-20.hut.fi (Veijo P L{nsikunnas)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm IPSC loads...
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:38:25 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In <1992Nov4.230643.15326@netcom.com> pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:

#proven load that will give me something to the effect of a 150 power factor.
#I know I could drop the velocity a great deal and shoot 125-130, but I want to
#be sure poppers go down with some regularity.

#So anyway, I imagine a 147gr bullet would be much preferable to a 115 or 124,
#since the latter bullets would require about 1300 fps to make 150 pf.  The
#147, on the other hand, can get by with around 1000 or so.

#So, if anyone is shooting 9mm minor IPSC, please post/mail your loads.

I use now 124grain lead SWCs over 0.29grams (4.5 grains I think) of HP38.
That is a good minor load. I used 0.30 and .031 grams earlier, but the
pressure was too high for lead bullets (bullets hit the target sideways).

I think I'll try out 147grain bullets as soon as I run out of 124s.
From: minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov (Minh Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:23:27 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory

In article <RTARAZ.92Nov11125627@bigwpi.WPI.EDU> Ramin Taraz,
rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU writes:
#I got a chill going down my back bone after reading this story.
#What would you DO if you shot this poor fellow and then saw his card?

The police officer will be able to get away with it, that's for sure.
They call it a "perception of threat"...

  == Minh ==
+------------------------------------------------------------+
 Minh Lang, Software Engineer  - Jet Propulsion Laboratory
 Instrumentation Systems Group - Instrumentation section 375
 Note:  My employer has nothing to do with what I said here...
+------------------------------------------------------------+
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:05:51 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:

#In article <1992Nov5.004254.3842@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:

#}Laser sights seem to be the real intimidator. Having that bright
#}red spot playing over your chest can make you really queasy.  ...
#Only if you notice it.  If you're going through a dark house and think you
#may have encountered an armed defender, are you going to be paying much
#attention to your chest?
#Mas Ayoob doesn't think so.

	In smokey air (like after the first shot is fired),  laser beams
are visible in the air.   A nice "connect the dots" line guiding your
assailant's aim to his target, you.

Jim
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Cor-Bon ammo...
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:24:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Well, I picked up a box of Cor-Bon 124gr 9mm +P ammo tonight...It seems the
115gr stuff is pretty much impossible to come by.  Anyway, the box says this
particular round is good for 1250 fps (Hey!  155 power factor!)  More
interesting, though, it says: "9MM+P 124GR XTP-HP".  Are these Hornady XTP
bullets?  I've got a box of 115gr XTPs, and they appear to be pretty much
identical (except for the weight, I would assume).  It was my understanding
that Cor-Bon used a Sierra bullet; or is this only for the 115gr version?  This
is what Cor-Bon is all about, right - off-the-shelf bullets (Sierra/XTP) with
a special powder that allows extremely high velocities with lower pressure?
I'm still waiting for my literature from Cor-Bon...  :-(

-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: rps@hoqax.att.com (Robert P Schwendel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Two questions
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:23:22 GMT
Organization: AT&T

I'm seriously considering either a .40 Glock 22 or Beretta 96 for
my next purchase. Any opinions on either are greatly welcome.
I won't be able to test fire before I buy since I don't know
anyone who has either, and you can't rent here in New Jersey (I gotta move!).

Now to the next topic. I've had a 4" 686 for the past 4 months and
have put about 400 rounds through it so far. My problem is with
accuracy. From a bench, I'm tending to shoot low and slightly to
the left of my target point. From a Weaver stance, I'm pretty
consistent in the black. Now, with a friend's 6" 686, I can tell
the gun to do whatever I want. So, do I just need to practice more
with my gun or can someone offer me some advice on correcting a
problem I may be having but am not aware of. BTW, I'm shooting
consistent 3" groups from the bench, just not where I'm aiming
(or at least where I think I'm aiming.) Also, a friend sited the
gun for me, and I tweaked it a bit; but he can still make it do whatever
he wants and I'm still low to the left. He says the gun is sited right
and I just need to practice more.

As usual, thanks in advance,
Bob