From: mvishnu@bcr3.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu)
Subject: Re: Distortion in Meenan Vishnu Opposed
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 16:04:25 GMT

In article <lcn46rINNabv@bathtub.cs.utexas.edu> raman@cs.utexas.edu (Raman Rajagopalan) writes:
>In article <BvGC41.5HM@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> mvishnu@bcr3.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu) writes:
>
>>Ok, let us for a moment, assume that there was indeed a Rama temple and that
>>Babar destroyed it and replaced it with a mosque.  If BJP/RSS wants to 
>>"correct the historical injustice" by destroying the mosque and replacing 
>>it with a Rama temple, why can't the Dravidians destroy all that is Aryan
>>and replace it with Dravidian to "correct the historical injustice" of 
>>the Aryans.  (Remember, Most scholars still hold the view that there was 
>>indeed an Aryan invasion of Dravidian India although modern "scholars" 
>>such as Prof. Kak, S. Rao wants the world to believe that the Aryans are
>>the original inhabitants of India.  The evidences that they give are not
>>at all convincing to me).
>
>
>Even if the dravidians were driven out, what structures do you want
>replaced?  Just curious to see if you have any facts on this topic.
>
>Also, do you want all tamils to leave sri lanka and tamil nadu and
>go back north?  after all, the same theories say the dravidians 
>were driven south .. meaning they weren't in those lands originally!

You missed the point completely.  The reason why I put this question is
to illustrate the folly in "correcting the historical mistakes".  How
far in time should we go in "correcting the historical mistakes" ?
But you seemed to have missed the point completely.  Try again.


>>We (Hindus) should have prevented the Islamic invasions with all our
>>hearts and minds back in 640 A.D (see article below).  Now it is no use
>>destroying mosques and building temples.  Instead we can use the capital
>>to renovate thousands of beautiful temples that are being destroyed by
>>nature everyday.  (There are so many such temples in TN for example).
>>
>>Meenan Vishnu
>>
>
>I agree with you here.  So much so there is a chance we can be
>best friends!!
>
>SO, why do you admire folks like Periyar and
>Karunanidhi, and their respective parties DK and DMK.   DMK has 
>single handedly screwed the temples out of their means of maintenance,
>by stealing temple lands and siphoning off contributions.
>
>Periyar of course has publically endorsed destroying idols in temples.
>
>You seem to change colors when it suits you, Mr. Vishnu... are you a man
>or a chameleon in disguise?


Periyar destroyed the idols because, these idols were used to exploit the
masses (by the Vedic rites) and to inculcate a sense of inferiority
complex in them (Caste system of Hinduism).

The foreigners destroyed the temple to enslave us.  So there is a difference.


>>(originally posted in SCI)
>>==========================================================================
>>
>>I have typed the follwing interesting paragraphs from the book
>>
>>"Gita As it Was: Rediscovering the Original Bhagavadgita"
>> by Phulgenda Sinha.
>>
>>begin quote
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>The story of how the Brahmans helped the invading Arabs in their
>>conquest of Sind is a treacherous history.  
>
>... much of this cute story has been deleted ...
>
>----------
>
>We have this cute story of yours (oops Mr. Sinha), and then
>there is the story of Chanakya, a brahmin who single handedly
>helped in stopping the advance of Alexander the great.  Seems to
>me that not all brahmins were rooting for the invaders.
>
>But then, you did not write that Brahmins did not want to defend
>their homeland and culture, you only wrote that Brahmins were so
>anti-buddhist that were willing to sell out to the moslem invaders.
>
>Can you give concrete evidence of anti-buddist sentiments on
>the part of ANY hindus, much less brahmins?  That is, from the
>philosophy of Hinduism itself?  I invite you to quote from the
>Vedas or Bhagavad Gita this time!

For anti-Buddhist reaction of BJP/RSS during the current, see articles 
below (reproduced from SCI and Soc.religion.eastern).  The bramin
priests wanted to destroy Buddhism simply because it does not support
the Vedic Rites with which they usually make their living!
 
>On the contrary, Buddha is considered an avatar of Vishnu, and many Hindus, and
>certainly most Brahmins, accepted Buddha's teaching of the evils
>of meat eating and became vegetarians.  His teachings regarding meditation
>and self-control are also widely accepted and practiced, even today.

This avatar is a later addition.  This is one of the tactics of the Braminism
zealots: when one of their opposers become popular and finding that he/she
is invincible, try and include him within themselves.  Buddha's teaching are
very far from the Vedantic teaching of Hinduism.  The story the Hindus give for 
Vishnu's incarnation as Buddha is laughable: "to confuse the demons (see
SP's article for more detail).

About vegetarianism, any sane person knows that it is wrong to eat meat 
where vegetables are available in abundance.

>
>Did these 640 AD brahmins of yours suddenly have a craving for
>Big MAC and is that why they decided go whole hog against the
>Buddists?  Philosophically, I see no logical reason for it.

Buddhist Philosophy is  very different from the Vedic philosophy.  The
basic problem Bramin priests had with Buddha was the his assertion that
the performance of the Vedic rites leads one nowhere.

>
>Also, what is Mr. Sinha's proof?  After all, I could also quote you
>later on and state that Mr. Vishnu has found religious evidence

As it was mentioned in the article (this question of yours shows that you 
did not read it carefully), that this historical incident was taken from
an Arabic book called "Chacnamah".

>stating that Brahmins are superior to Chinese and Russians.  Of course, I 
>wouldn't, because I know you are wrong, but then again ....
><for those who are new to this thread, I am referring to an earlier Meenan
> Vishnu posting which I shredded to pieces>

Which one ?
>
>Now, if it was a case of ONE man or a group being jealous of the
>other's prestige, it may be understandable.  
>The latter is a pitfall of man which can be seen even today...
>both in the Sinhalese being anti-tamil, and in you and your DMK buddies 
>being anti-brahmin!!!

I am only trying to show some the exploitations that some Bramin priests
are doing in the name of hindoo religion.  (Another story:  One Bramin
priest from Toronto, who has his own temple in Toronto, is arrested in 
Singapore trying to smuggle drugs inside the Vigraha!!)
>
>Now, please do stop generalizing about brahmins, or I will have to
>continue to expose your foolishness publically!

I am not generalizing.  In any case, if I have any foolosh, irrational ideas
please correct me in public.  It would be part of my learning process.
I am not ashamed of learning.  I certainly do not want to die with t
"foolish" ideas.  So go ahead expose my "foolishness" but do not issue
threats.


>
>thanks a ton in advance for cooperating,
>
>- raman rajagopalan
>

Meenan Vishnu


article 1 (news from soc.religion.eastern newsgroup)
*****************************************************************************

From: wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Newsflash : Bodh Gaya

Hi Folks,

	I would like to alert everyone to the following piece of news I read
in the Daily Yomiuri, a local newspaper.

------------------- BEGINNING OF NEWSCLIP --------------------

	INDIA'S BUDDHISTS MARCH TO CLAIM ANCIENT TEMPLE
        -----------------------------------------------

	By Takashi Sakamoto (Yomiuri Shimbun Correspondent)

	BANGKOK -- A dispute over an ancient temple brought about 1,000
Buddhists together on Sunday in a march from Bombay heading across northern
India to appeal for their rights to control the holy site.

	The temple, Bodh Gaya, is considered sacred after Gautama Buddha
experienced spiritual awakening under a bo tree about 2,500 years ago. The
temple reportedly was built by ancient India's King Ashoka, a protector of
Buddhism. Hindus now control the temple.

	The march was organized by the All India Bodh Gaya Mahabodhi Temple
Protection Committee, led by a Japanese priest, Bhante Arya Nagarjun Shurai
Sasai, who has been living in India for 25 years, a committee  spokesman said.

	The struggle over control has been a long and sometimes violent one,
with Buddhists and Hindus clashing in spring. "The aim of the walk is to
stimulate public opinion about the oppression against Buddhists by Hindus in
Bodh Gaya," a spokesman of the committee said in a telephone interview with
the Yomiuri Shimbun, adding that a Hindu backlash is expected.

	The marchers, most of whom are Indians, are scheduled to walk through
the cities of New Delhi and Varanashi before arriving in Bodh Gaya on Oct 22,
where they will form a human chain around the temple and appeal for its return,
the spokesman said.

	Buddhism was born in India, but now only 10 million of the country's
850 million people are Buddhists. More than 80 percent are Hindus.

	Most Hindus in the bottom rank of the Hindu caste system converted to
Buddhism after India gained independence, with the largest Buddhist population
living in the state of Maharashtra, in which Bombay is located.

---------------------- END OF NEWSCLIP --------------------------

	I pray and hope that the situation will not explode into violence. I
also hope that the holiest of Buddhist site - the Vajra throne under the Bo
tree in the Mahabodhi Temple and the temple itself - will be returned to the
Buddhists. I don't think this little corner in vast India is too much to ask 
for.

with Metta,

W.F. Wong.

****************************************************************************
end of article 1

article 2:  (news from reuters)
****************************************************************************

RTw  09/26 0828  Indian Buddhists hail Sri Lanka boost for shrine ...

Indian Buddhists hail Sri Lanka boost for shrine campaign
    By Jawed Naqvi
    NEW DELHI, Sept 26,  Reuter  -  Buddhist  activists  said  on
Saturday  a  planned  visit  by the Sri Lankan President to their
holiest shrine in India  would  boost  international  efforts  to
restore the Hindu-controlled temple to Buddha's followers.
    A Sri Lankan embassy spokesman  confirmed  Ranasinghe  Prema-
dasa,  due in India on a three-day visit on Thursday, would visit
Bodhgaya, in eastern Bihar state, where Lord Buddha attained  his
celebrated enlightenment 2,500 years ago.
    "We are absolutely delighted that Mr Premadasa  is  going  to
Bodhgaya.  He will boost our struggle," said N. G. Uke, president
of the Bauddha Upasak Sangh, an Indian missionary group.
    Uke said Premadasa was a devout Buddhist  and  represented  a
country  where  Buddhism  was  the official religion. Some 69 per
cent of the 17 million Sri Lankans people are Buddhists.
    There are some 10 million Buddhists in  India,  mostly  lower
caste Hindus who converted in the 1950's.
    Thousands of Buddhists from across the world have  planned  a
cross-country  march  to reclaim the Bodhgaya shrine, the site of
the Bo-tree under which Buddha meditated.
    Organisers of the march, beginning in Bombay on Sunday,  said
several  Japanese  priests  had  arrived to join monks from other
countries, including Sri Lanka, Tibet and Indochina.
    The Bodhgaya shrine is currently managed by a  Hindu-majority
committee.   Buddhist  monks say the shrine should be restored to
Buddha's international followers.
    The temple was founded by Ashoka, a Hindu king who  became  a
Buddhist some 300 years after the preacher.
    Ashoka's brother founded Buddhism in Sri Lanka where his sis-
ter  Sangamitta  planted a sappling of the bodhi tree, the oldest
historically authenticated relic of the original in Bodhgaya.
    Buddhist historians say the original Bo-tree was uprooted  by
a  9th century Hindu king as part of a backlash against the monks
after they were perceived as a threat to the supremacy  of  upper
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
caste Brahmins.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    "We believe the king used his troops to uproot  the  Bodhgaya
tree  and in order to destroy it completey, they poured acid into
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
its roots," said Uke.
    Former Sri Lankan prime minister Srimavo Bandarnaike returned
a  sappling  from the Bodhi tree to India during a visit in 1964,
to celebrate Buddha's 2,500th anniversary.
    Buddhist activists said Premadasa would place a gold  railing
around the Bodhgaya tree to demonstrate its sanctity.
    About 82 per cent of India's 850 million people  are  Hindus.
Some  of them believe that Buddha was an incarnation of Hindu god
Vishnu. But others see Buddhism as a heretic doctrine and  as  an
insidious revolt against the supremacy of the Brahmins in ancient
India.
    "We are expecting thousands of Buddhists from  all  over  the
world  to  join the rally," Bhadanta Arya Surai Sasai, a Japanese
monk said.
    Sasai, living in India for 25  years,  is  the  head  of  the
Rahstriya Mahabodhi Mahavihar Mukti Andolan Samiti (National Com-
mittee for the Liberation of the Buddhist Grand Temple).
    The right-wing Hindu Bharatiya Janata Party  (BJP)  said  the
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
march  could  stir trouble between the two communities and blamed
Bihar's lower caste Chief Minister Laloo Prasad Yadav for promot-
ing it.
    Yadav's Janata Dal party won last year's parliamentary  elec-
tions  by  a  handsome  margin mainly by appealing to lower caste
Hindus and has the support of Buddhist activists.
    "We are against this march. We are for a  status  quo,"  said
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
BJP spokesman K.R.Malkani.
 REUTER JHN JKF
******************************************************************
end of article 2

start of original post from Chacnamah
******************************************************************

I have typed the follwing interesting paragraphs from the book

"Gita As it Was: Rediscovering the Origianl Bhagavadgita
 by Phulgenda Sinha."

The auther is an Orissan Brahmin 
who returned to India after studying in the US.  He attempted to 
initiate some voluntary project work in Indian villagers (details 
can be found in the preface) but found that his attempts were 
spoilt by the local politicians.

He concluded that there must be something wrong with the 
thought patterns of the Indian people and began searching 
for the answers.   He found his answers in the Hindu scriptures,
specifically the idea of predetermined world in which man's self-effort
is of no avail and that events would unfold according to the FATE.

His research led him to conclude that most of the Hindu scriptures
were altered by the Brahmins during the 8th century AD to place them 
in an important position.

He says: "The changers did not only stopped the tide of rationalism in 
Indian life but also seduced people into believing and accepting the
false as genuine, alien as indeginous, religios as political, and
mystical as rational.  The consequences were deep, all encompassing, 
bewildering.  India, indeed, was pushed into a 'dark age'".

He further says: "The repercussions of these changes were so far-reaching
that they cannot be adequately discussed under any single category.  I have,
therefore, preferred to cover them under four different subheadings:
(i)political submissiveness; (ii) philosophical distortions; 
(iii) mystification of Yoga; and (iv) religious and cultural effects".

The author found copies of earler version of Gita in Balanise and other
languages.  To put the long story short,  he concluded that the original
Gita was much smaller (84 verses).


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The story of how the Brahmans helped the invading Arabs in their
conquest of Sind is a treacherous history.  We get a vivid 
account of the Arabs' incursion and their subsequent conquest of
Sind through a book entitled Chachnamah, written by Ali Kufi 
(of Kufah, Syria) in 1216 A.D.  The book was translated into
Persian from Arabic, and was translated into English by Mizra
Kalichbeg Fredunbeg in 1900[3].

According to Chachnamha, Buddhism was the dominant religion in
Sind during the senth century A.D.  There were Buddhist temples
and monastaries located all over Sind.  The Buddhist and the Brahmans
lived in amity.  The various principalities and their rulers were 
under the king of Sind, Rai Sahira, a Kshatriya.  This kingdom fell
into the hands of his Chief, Chach, who ruled for many years.
After the death of Chach, his son Dahar (Dahir) became the king. 
It wwas during this reign that the Arabs conquered Sind.

The Arabs began invading portions of Sind during 640s.  According to the 
Chgachnamah, during the reign of Caliph Umar (634-643) "an army of Islam
was first sent out to different parts of Hind and Sind, to carry on 
religious war there"[4].  But every attack of the Arabs was thwarted, 
their forces destroyed, and the leader killed.  Their condition changed 
abruptly, however, when they began receiving support from the Brahmans.
The Brahmans had always occupied the high administrative before and after 
Chach.  They began helping the Arabs by acting as their informers; by 
preaching a philosophy of surrender; by predicting victory of Islam and
defeat of the local ruler; and by working as advance-party of the 
invading Arabs.  Let me give an example of how a brahman's support to the
Arabs at Debal (a small principality in Sind) provided them with their
victory in Sind.

The Arabs had invaded Debal in 711 A.D. under the command of Muhammad Kasim
(also called Muhammad Ibin Qasim).  They had fought for eight days without
making any gains.  Since Debal was a fortified city, the Arabs had encamped nearby and were waging war from their camps, without success. 

In the heart of the city of Debalo, there was a Buddhist temple with a 
high dome.  On that dome, there was a high pole from which a huge flag was
hoisted.  This flag worked as a talisman (symbol).  It meant that as long as
the flag continued to be displayed, the people would be victorious. 
Inspired by this flag, the people and the army fought bravely, and for 
eight days the Arabs were held in check.  On the ninth day of the battle,
while the Arab army was besieging Debal, a surpricing event happened:

"All of a sudden, then, a Brahmin (Brahman) came fourth from the garrison,
and cried for mercy.  He said "May the just Governor live long!  We have 
learnt from our sciences of stars that the country of Sind will be 
conquired by the army of Islam, and the infidels will be put to flight.
But be it known to you that the standard of the idol-house (temple), yonder,
is a talisman.  As long as the standard of the temple stands in its place,
it is impossible for the fort to be taken by you.  You must, therefore,
try your best to blow off the dome of this temple, and break its flag-staff
into pieces.  Then only your success will be complete"[5].

After  hearing the secret of the temple, the commander of the Arab army,
Muhammed Kasim, called his engineer, Jaubat Salmi, and offered him
a reward for devising a means of blowing off the dome of  the temple.
The next day, the Arabs destroyed the dome and the flag of the temple.
The call of the flag meant the fall of the Debalese people/

After the dome was demolished, the Arabs army entered the temple and fort
without a fight.  THe people surrendered, the idol in the temple was removed,
and a mosque was established.  The Arabs had won their first victory, and
they now knew who their collaborators would be.  As a result, when 
Muhammed Kasim marched from marched from one place to another, he had
easy victories.  And finally he was able to conquer all of Sind.

By reading Chachnamah, ofne comes to see againg and again that 
when the Arab army began marching into other areas after capturing Debal, 
the Brahmnas worked as advance-men for them.  They began telling the
people, the army, and the local prince: "The sages and the philosophers
of Hind (India), who are the original residents of this country, have 
found from their books of antiquity, by use of the astrolabec and their
astroly,
that this empire will be conquired by an army of Islam and will come
into its complete possession"[6].

Because of these predictions by Brahmins, many chief and heads of various
principalities surrendered to the Arabs, one after another, without a 
fight.  The few who resisted found their military secrets turned over
to the Arabs by Brahmin informers.  At one place, about one thousand 
Brahmans appeared before Muhammed Kasim and expressed their respect
and support to him in exchange for due patronage.  Kasim obliged them
by appointing them to their previously held posts and also allowed them
a small share in the taxes they collected from the people[7].

The victory of the Arabs, from Debal to Sind, was greatly facilated 
with the help of the Brahmnas.  After their conquest in Sind, the Arabs
made use of the Brahman administrative and priestly skill to promote the
Islamic faith as well as to consolidate their power.  Indeed, the 
conquest of India by the followers of Islam began in Sind.

It is informative to quote the view of Dayaram Gidumal, who wrote the
introduction to the English edition of Chachnamah.  Gidumul writes:
"It is extremely doubtful if Sind could have been conquered at all, 
had these chiefs remained true to thier kings, and, curios as it may seem,
it was ostensibly astrology that made the traiters of them.  For they said:
'Our wise men have predicted that Sind will come under the sway of Islam.
Why then should we battle against Fate.'--The result of course was
disastrous"[9].

*************************************************************************
end of article 3