HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 07:49:33 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: LD, Standard English, exclusion, and elitism

Are you suggesting that "dialect" and "learning disabilities" are
equal or should be in consideration?  I would assume that a user of
a dialect COULD learn the governances of a different "dialect" -- ie
SWE.  My experience with those with learning disabilities is that
their problems are in the reading or writing NOT in the speaking -- thus
they can communicate orally in standard form (and even dictate, when
necessary, what becomes SWE).

I'm tired of people putting "elitism" down.  Shouldn't academic communities
have some sort of standard?  Life is full of "appropriateness" for different
places, different times.

I'm afraid that I, for one, still like to think of college/university
as a level of dedication to learning, not some place where kids live
and occasionally go to class and buy a degree.

Nancy Ellis
nse2@ra.mstate.edu
Mississippi State Univ
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:19:26 AST
Comments:     <18DEC92.10101467.0064.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Re: Standard English

Irv says
>        I was of course suggesting that we learn to speak their
> language (languages some of us have forgotten in our border
> crossing); but your concern leads to the question of why
> "they don't."  I would not locate the fault in them; nor would
> I locate it in us.  So where to we go?  I (as I am sure you do)
> have some ideas.
     Well, maybe not in us (in our stars, Brutus?), but I think
the problem is in the system we put them in, where academic
languages (written or oral) are kept away from the students very
efficiently.  Undergraduates read textbooks and write
undergraduate essays, neither of which has much to do with the
real language of a discipline or an academy, and neither of which
serve their real needs for participation in societies of people
engaged in common tasks.  The languages which do serve those
needs they learn with amazing skill and speed (so do we, still; I
think we're all learning the language of etalk in that way).  The
reason we don't learn the languages of our students is that in
order to learn them we'd have to join their communities, and
that's getting tougher and tougher for me as I age (when I was a
new teacher just out of grad school it wasn't so hard: now that
I'm old enough to be most of my students' father, it's much more
difficult).
     It's because of this that I try to create situations where
my students write TO each other and (less often) TO me, about
real academic issues and in a context of reading in the actual
work of the discipline.  (The "TO" there is a way of saying TO
rather than FOR.)  That's why I don't mark student papers (that,
for sure, makes it FOR, doesn't it).  I suppose that's why you
don't, either.  I also try to create situations where the
author(s) actually know something the (real) audience doesn't --
for instance, by never or very rarely using common texts or
assignments.
     What are some of your ideas about this?
                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:19:36 CST
From:         "Michael S. Hart" <HART@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      For you Hard Core Users

From:         "Michael S. Hart" <HART@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject:      Hardcore Users
To:           Gutenberg Discussion Group <gutnberg@uiucvmd>

For you hardcore users out there who are not gone for the holidays:

We have opened up a test version of the etext93 directory which now
contains the latest World Factbook.  Have at it and let me know.

We have acquired 250 million digits of Pi and are thinking about an
assortment of compression and search techniques.  Suggestions are a
sound Christmas present.  We should have the whole billion digits--
from two separate sources--and will need to compare them.  This may
be more fun than one might think.  We also need to determine a best
way to present the file for users (line numbers?  spaces?  how long
should lines be?  etc.)

Keep looking in etext93 for Pi, Surfing the Internet or Anne of the
Island, which along with the Factbook should be our four etexts for
January 1993.  Stay tuned for more requests for volunteers, as this
coming year will require us to get twice as productive once again.

Happy Holidays!

=====================================================

Thank you for your interest,

Michael S. Hart, Professor of Electronic Text
Executive Director of Project Gutenberg Etext
Illinois Benedictine College, Lisle, IL 60532
No official connection to U of Illinois--UIUC
hart @uiucvmd.bitnet or hart@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 12:44:51 AST
Comments:     <12DEC92.13797021.0031.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      RE: I owe a big thanks to somebody here, but who is it?

Rhoda Carroll says:
> Russ, the interview project had two peer editors (students) so I guess
> just four people read each essay: the writer, the two peer editors, and
> moi.  Oh -- I forgot -- in a few cases students went home over
> Thanksgiving break and interviewed a parent who was practicing
> the profession, and so add a couple of parents into the reader-count.
> Who else should be reading them?
     What I had in mind was the rest of the class, who might be
presumed to have an interest in the findings of the interviews;
or even, possibly, a wider audience.  I have this suspicion that
"peer editors" don't have the impact that more "authentic"
audiences -- audiences really in a position to be informed,
moved, persuaded -- can have.  I keep trying to find ways to
publish student writing for real audiences.  A first year class
might do work on a play to be produced in town, for instance, and
publish and distribute a "Playgoer's Handbook"; or in my 18th
century literature class each group publishes their reports on
writers to the rest of the class, for whom the report or
description is their introduction to that writer.  Or my
colleague Doug Vipond has his intro psych class write a report
describing the discipline of psychology to a junior high class.
Sounds to me like your folks have something to say.  Providing
them with an occasion when it can really have authentic force
(informing, persuading, moving) would give them an experience
which my students, at least, have seldom or never had.

                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 14:42:00 EST
From:         "Rhoda Carroll, Vermont College,
              Montpelier" <RHODA%MUNIN%HUGIN@NORWICH.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: I owe a big thanks to somebody here, but who is it?

Russ, the interview project had two peer editors (students) so I guess
just four people read each essay: the writer, the two peer editors, and
moi.  Oh -- I forgot -- in a few cases students went home over
Thanksgiving break and interviewed a parent who was practicing
the profession, and so add a couple of parents into the reader-count.
Who else should be reading them?

--Rhoda
Rhoda Carroll*Vermont College of Norwich University*Rhoda@Norwich.Bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:42:54 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Second Language Labs

The trouble is, Raul, that having the opportunity to use a second language is
not the same as having the need to do so. Our students have the opportunity to
write every day, but seldom the need to write. I can take algebra in the
evenings at the high school down the street but I won't do it until (god
forbid) I need algebra. Let me give you a curious take from El Paso. There's a
town in which opportunities to use Spanish abound. But generally speaking,
only people who needed to use Spanish (store clerks, nurses, some public
school teachers, etc.) bothered to learn it. Interestingly enough, some of the
people with the least perceived need to acquire proficiency in Spanish were
the faculty at UTEP. The majority did not speak Spanish (or only enough to
order dinner). Language learning is hard and frustrating, and most people will
not do it unless they have to, unless their lives or livelihoods depend on it.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:17:56 EST
From:         hjjankie@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU
Subject:      Re: monolingualism

David,

Good.  I'll relay that defense the next time I see my friend.

When I heard the joke, I flashed on conversations in which I've heard
Europeans express resentment against American foreign policy, against
American attitudes overseas, and on expressions of the perception that
Europeans are more globally conscious and politically informed than their
American counterparts.  I don't have a sense of how justified any of that
is, or if it's just a playing out of stereotypes.

Guess I'm not that informed.

Henry Jankiewicz
-------
Henry Jankiewicz, hjjankie@mailbox.syr.edu Syracuse University Writing
Program, HBC 1, Syracuse NY 13244, 315-443-3915.
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Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:30:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Clarification (5)

Entry: 5
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:41:44 -0500
From: MIKE <benedict@FOX.FCASD.EDU>
Subject: Clarification (5)
Message-id: <01GSEHDMVUQ88WXY6Q@ulkyvx.bitnet>
Reply-to: Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar) <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>

         Greetings all,

         I'd like to thank Susan of BREADNet for her taste in jokes.
         Do you know what you call a cow who just gave birth?
         Decaffinated.

         I would like to make one correction in Susan's description
         of my presentation.  I did not mean to say that e-mail would
         be giving us ease in administering and scoring tests.  I was
         trying to describe a program we are using called LMS/LMX
         distributed by Campus America. We are using this program to
         put our curricula on line.  We then are developing test
         questions of various levels of complexity tied into the
         objectives of any given lesson.  We can then generate
         criterion-referenced tests and teaching/learning modules
         geared to the objectives.  The test questions can be
         randomized we we could generate several different forms of a
         test.  Students will eventually be able to work through
         learning modules on-line, take a test on-line when they are
         through with thelearning modules and have their scores
         automatically put into a teacher's on-line grade book.

         I hope you all have a good semester/holiday break.

         Mike Benedict

                :-} benedict@chapel.fcasd.edu {-:

------------------------------
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:55:50 CST
From:         Judy Boss <boss@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Long post for MBU-L (1)

Gardner:

I certainly did not have any inkling in reading Liz's or Susanmarie's
postings that they were responding to anything other than the argument.
Also I often wish an issue were less complex than I find it to be,
acknowledge it to be, or even *think it is*; if this is "morally
irresponsible," so be it.

Judy Boss
boss@cwis.unomaha.edu
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 13:43:12 EST
From:         Bill Condon <USERLCBK@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      LD, Standard English, exclusion, and elitism

I've been intrigued by what I see as an intersection between two
strands:  the Standard Written English/dialect strand and the more
recent dyslexia strand.  In both cases, a dominant group sets a
standard and then excludes those who do not meet the standard.  Thus,
exclusion results in an elite or inside group that is more able to
preserve its characteristics and meet its needs than the outsiders
can.

For students with learning disabilies, the term "differently abled"
applies most directly.  Such folks are, literally, differently abled
than the majority population.  They are no less intelligent, but the
measures we use to allow people to express their intelligence do not
address the LD student's abilities, and so that person, unless s/he can
find a way to adapt, is judged by OUR system to be less intelligent--
leaves formal schooling earlier, is a "slow learner," has poor handwriting,
etc, etc, etc.  And the degree of exclusion is directly proportional to
the degree of the "DISability" (even the label we put on it reflects
a deficiency, rather than simply a difference).

Similarly, people who write in non-standard English do not "measure up"
to the standard set by an elite few, and are thus excluded from the
priviledges that group grants itself.  In this case, too, the dominant
group sets the standard and then insists, in effect, that being "worthy"
depends on the degree to which a person conforms to the dominant group.

Now, I can see, as others have stated, that to some extent solving the
problems many of our students have depends on their learning SWE--the
dialect of the dominant group.  But only in the short term.  In the
long term, we must do something about the hypocrisy of a society that,
on the one hand, extols the virtues of uniqueness and individuality and
on the other hand punishes difference with a vengeance (just ask the
indians).  In our present meritocracy, we define merit too narrowly,
so those who want to gain access to the full rights and priviledges
our society has to offer must alter themselves to fit a very narrow
range within which they can then exercise difference--carefully.

I don't know about the rest of you, but this business worries me a lot.

Bill Condon
English Composition Board
1025 Angell Hall
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109
userlcbk@umichum.bitnet
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Organization: University of Alabama English Dept.
Priority:     normal
X-mailer:     Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4).
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:31:54 CDT
From:         Jim Raymond <JRAYMOND@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Standard English

    The standard English strand reminds of something I learned when
teaching a seminar to high school teachers in Sumter County, AL, in
the early seventies.  "How do you deal with dialectal diversity in
your classrooms," I asked, after I thought I had sufficiently
enlightened the group.
    "I'll tell you how I deal with it." The respondent was matronly,
her husband a small town banker, her accent genteel South Carolina.
"I teach them to enjoy it."
    I wish I could indicate the lilt she put on the second syllable
of "enjoy," a bel canto ornamentation peculiar to her dialect and
impossible to represent in print.
   That's about the wisest thing I've heard on the subject.  This
teacher had her students collect words, phrases, sayings, that
were common to their friends and families, but not likely to appear
in a city newspaper.  She would put these specimens on a bulletin
board to be admired, like captured butterflies. Yellin' pen" for
"yearling pen."  Feelox" for "field larks."  "Case quarter" for the
coin, as opposed to five nickels.
    Seems to me she was making
not ashamed of it.
    It's odd that we academics think of dialectal diversity as a
problem, rather than a source of delight.
    I'm glad Mark Twain didn't.
--Jim Raymond
  Director of Freshman Composition
  English Department
  University of Alabama
  (205) 348-6488
  JRaymond@English.as.ua.edu
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:18:27 CST
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: LD the same as nonstandard usage?

On Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:39:40 EST Bill Condon said:
>I don't want to be a gatekeeper, a functionary of an elitist society whose
>job is to say who belongs and who doesn't.  I'd like to find ways to
>make our measures of learning more inclusive, and I think that we as
>a profession (and I mean all college teachers now) must find such ways,
>or in our increasingly diverse society, we'll become irrelevant.
>
You said screenfull, Bill. It's worth all the energy we can muster for
the project to help make the institution more inclusive or become more
inclusive in spite of the institution. We (as a profession) aren't
the only game in town anymore. Commercial nets like America Online
are developing educational components. Nothing to worry about now,
I suppose, but given the potential for growth out there in the network
world, people might someday (soon) see AOL & the like as a viable
alternative to the hallowed halls of higher ed, as an alternative
to US.

--Eric Crump
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:41:24 -0700
From:         "(Michael Day)" <mday@SILVER.SDSMT.EDU>
Subject: Re: IRC virtual holiday party

Forgot to mention that the channel on IRC will be #cw.  In IRC,
just type /join #cw to join the party.

One way in is to type "telnet ircserver.itc.univie.ac.at 6668"

See you there!
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:23:16 -0700
From:         "(Bradford A. Morgan)" <bmorgan@SILVER.SDSMT.EDU>
Subject:      Job Seeking and the Net

	In a recent posting on the Humanist, Eric Johnson reminds us that
universities seeking to hire computer-oriented writing faculty are finding
that nationally developed applicant pools are shallow indeed in this respect.
The same seems to hold for other disciplines, from what I've seen, and once
we start asking for network and information literacy, the numbers fall
dizzily away.  It would seem that search chairs seeking this talent should
go directly to the lists themselves.  Do applicants routinely itemize the
discussion groups they belong to on their resumes.
						Bradford Morgan
						bmorgan@silver.sdsmt.edu
Here's Eric's posting:


------------------------Original Message---------------------------

Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 92 08:45:12 CST
From:         "Eric Johnson  DSU, Madison, SD 57042" <ERIC@SDNET>
Subject:      Prospects for computing humanists


   Stephen Clausing and others made some excellent points about the
lack of job prospects for humanists with a background in computing.

   There is another side of the issue of humanities computing that I see
as the Dean of a College of Liberal Arts.

   At Dakota State University, our mission is to use computers throughout
the curriculum.  Art courses cover computer graphics; English students
learn to write with computers; they use computers for the analysis of
literature.  English majors are required to learn to program (in
SNOBOL4 or in Icon).  Students in social science use computers for
simulations.  There is a class for Health-PE majors to learn to write
programs for their applications.

   When we need to hire faculty, it is *very* difficult to find people
with a sound subject background and anything more than superficial
knowledge of computing.  If we advertise for an Assistant Professor
of English, we will receive 60 or 80 or 100 applications, but only
two or three will know more about computing than word processing, and
perhaps only one will be able to program.

   The situation is starting to change (and it will change), but
if it is true that a humanities graduate finds it difficult to locate
a position where an understanding of computing can be put to use, it
is also true that it is difficult for a university to hire a Ph.D. or
M.F.A. in the humanities with significant computer knowledge.

   -- Eric Johnson
      ERIC@SDNET.BITNET
      johnsone@dsuvax.dsu.edu
      Dean, College of Liberal Arts
      Dakota State University
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 11:13:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Signing off

Megabuddies,
Many thanks for the sincere attempt most of you have been making
to keep your in-boxes clear and to sign off MBU (or set nomail)
for the holidays.  Makes my job much easier.   However, the
demons of technology are listing addresses in the MBU list in
odder ways than ever, which means that more and more people have
trouble signing off or even setting nomail by following the normal
instructions.  I've set up a process here (finally took to time
to reason something through, rather than the usual
"put-out-the-fires" tactic) which can get people off the list
rather easily.

SO, if you've tried to stop MBU the regular way and it won't
work, tell me about it at ykfok@ttacs, or ykfok@ttacs1.ttu.edu

The "regular way" to get off MBU, by the way, is to send a
single-line message to listserv@ttuvm1    (that's LISTSERV
without an 'E')

signoff mbu-l

If the address in the list matches what your return mail function
is calling your address, you will be removed.  Otherwise, you'll
get a message saying that you're not on the list (which is
stupid, since you keep getting MBU messages).  In that case, send
me the word and I'll pull you manually from the list.

Leaving the list, of course, doesn't mean you can't get back on
as easily when you're ready to resume the message chase.  Just
send another single-line message to the listserv address saying

subscribe mbu-l firstname lastname

(the firstname and lastname are, of course, YOUR firstname and
lastname, not. . .  oh well.  Nobody every does than anyway.)

Everybody, have a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and Happy New
Year, and praise heaven I don't have to suffer through MLA this
year!  Fred Kemp, Texas Tech
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:04:01 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Standard English

> in which they can invent them for themselves.  But it seems to me
> what we really want for our students is that they learn how to
> learn new dialects.  As with languages, one consequence of learning
> a second is that it becomes easier to learn a third . . .
>                                     -- Russ
Russ:
I want to push the issue a bit more.  To learn a new dialect (language),
one has to learn more than the words, syntax, conventions of speech and
writing.  The issue is really the way of seeing, isn't it.  That is,
to learn _how_ to learn more ways of seeing.
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
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