HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:52:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention

On Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:02:00 EST YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET said:
> Currently I am begining my research on the topic                      se of
> of whether U.S Military
> Intervention in the internal affairs of other countries is justified.
> I am interested in discussing the "values" and "justification" of sending
> U.S Military to other countries.                                      a
> SO in this letter I have basically touched on the points
> of values, causes, justifications, legitimacies, etc.
> I am interested in hearing the list's response.

I at once reached for my Thucydides, and
turned to the Melian Debates:

"For ourselves" {said the Athenians}, "we shall not trouble you
with specious pretences . . . and make a long speech which would
not be believed; and in return we hope that you . . . will aim
at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both:
since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes,
is only in question between equals in power, while the strong
do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

THE STRONG DO WHAT THEY CAN AND THE WEAK SUFFER WHAT THEY MUST

That pretty much sums up intervention in the affairs of
other states.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 08:58:00 CST
From:         GPGPO@BASIN.CRC.UNO.EDU
Subject:      Re: military intervention

I agree with Austin Kerr's statement of the subjective nature of justifying
military actions, or any actions for that matter.  Usually at the center
of the justification is the protection/promotion of the "national interest"
however one defines that.  As for war being "a symptom of the failure of a
nation's leadership," this may be so, but usually for one side only; military
engagement out of defense has been considered justifiable for centuries.

On another, related, note, is the question of presidentially-declared
"doctrines" intended to justify/legitimize foreign policies; does the lack
of an expressed "Bush Doctrine" indicate the president's lack of the vision
thing, or just his "realist" perception that the US has the power and thus
the right to take whatever action he feels worthwhile?  How does his use of
the UN play into tohis?

greg granger
university of new orleans
gpgpo@uno.edu
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:32:00 CST
From:         NFPKP2@AUDUCVAX.BITNET
Subject:      subscribe, history, robert saunders, jr, nfpkp2@ducvax.auburn.edu

Please add my name and address to this list.
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 10:26:00 CST
From:         JCFITZHARRIS@STTHOMAS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Historians' Drinking (Was: Briefer rantings)
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU

The easiest explanation is the declining real value of the faculty pay
packet.  The price of booze is up, the quantity of pay dollars isn't
up the much.

Joe Fitzharris
JCFitzharris@StThomas.edu
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:44:55 EDT
From:         "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rantings of the 'new' religious right

Renato,

I was *kidding* in that last post. I am *kidding* almost all the time. In part.
As a special favor, I shall try to be serious herewith.

I meant, I screwed up. I made horrible mistakes over on that other list while
trying to be funny. *But* there objectively *is* a tendency among US social
scientists at this time a tendency to resist thinking in any depth, as social
scientists, about the US crisis. I believe the US is in a period of social
crisis, that it involves the social structure as a whole in its most
profound aspect; that at intermediate levels it assumes the guises of crises
of the economy and federal revenues; and at surface level a cultural crisis
which has loosened upon us virulent extreme-Rightist hatreds and fears.

Daniel
SUNY Stony Brook
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 20:13:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....

When it comes to whites borrowing music from blacks, &c.,
I am not thinking of Mick Jagger, Eric Clapton, Keith
Richards, or even of white musicians covering songs by
black musicians in the 1950s. I am wondering about
what went on as gospel, both black and white, and
rhythm & blues originated in the South in the (I suppose)
C19. I imagine that those sorts of music originated in
the folk music of the South.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 21:25:48 EDT
From:         Michael T Bradley Jr <mtb3@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      List Watcher Wanted

LISTS IN REVIEW - Assistant Editor Wanted
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allow networked researchers to quickly survey what has been
discussed on dozens of lists and then retrieve past conversations
from a list's logbook.
     LISTS IN REVIEW will only record subject keywords of list
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LIR for this list, please contact the LISTS IN REVIEW Supplement
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 06:55:45 -0400
From:         BROWNH@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU
Subject:      RE: ftp archives
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU

FTP info much appreciated. I wonder if we could have a comparable
statement concerning both policy and procedure for _uploading_ files,
not only to the history archives, but to fellow list members who are
on BitNet?  Don, do you serve as gatekeeper and judge whether files
are worth uploading.  What is to prevent our garbage from just accumu-
ating in the archives?

Haines Brown  (brownh@ccsua.ctstateu.edu)
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Via:         UK.AC.ULCC.CLUS1; 27 AUG 92 15:43:43 BST
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:40:45 BST
From:         Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: the value of money

> > the telephone call costs 24c., the postage stamp is 43c. and the newspaper
> > is 80c.                                                               ur
>
> So -- for those who want to calculate the value of money, the
> stamp now costs a little over 8s.6d., the phone call costs 4s.9d.,
> and the newspaper a whopping 18 bob! No wonder we let Rupert into
> god's country -- he has plenty of the god that we worship.
>
> Denis Paz
> dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
>

I make it 16 bob, Denis. Stll whopping :-)

Christopher
From: dessau@aludra.usc.edu (Jon Dessau)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: the value of money
Date: 27 Aug 1992 00:51:25 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

Bob, your last suggestion of taking a (hopefully) representative and 
statistically significant basket of items (commodities, prices, currencies) 
is that used in almost all contemporary economic measurements and indices.  

Joe Fitzharris' suggestion of using wheat wheat alone would in most places 
be highly misleading if we go back more than 150 years.  In most of Europe 
wheat played a relatively minor role relative to rye, barley and various 
mixes of coarse grains.  The potato and other tubers also had a significant 
impact on the mix of staples.  A basket of grains or of sources of proteins 
or calories would be preferable.  But however adept we become with statistics,
 our data remains subject to all the vagaries and lacunae of the historical 
sources.

The meaningfulness of prices can often be questioned. In early modern Europe 
a large proportion of economic exchange bypassed the markets and money 
altogether as payments, dues, transfers and wages were made in kind.  This 
could make local distribution and consumption partially independent of 
public market prices.  On the other hand, luxury items such as wheat could 
compose a larger European and Atlantic market, with price levels relatively 
unresponsive to local demand and supply.  As Joe points out nothing will be 
completely satisfactory, and whatever you chose must depend on both the 
context of your problem, and the availability of data and indices.

By the way, in the particular example you cite, what were the `bonds' 
composed of?  Could it include advances and liabilities related to seed, 
labour or services? Unrequited reciprocities as it were?

Jon                                                    dessau@usc.edu
 





































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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:08:18 EDT
From:         mgarber@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU

wouldn't the invasion of lower Canada be attributable to
the British?
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:55:28 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Rantings of the 'new' religious right
              28 Aug 1992 20:15:22 CDT from <U17801@UICVM.BITNET>

Renato, DAF's "standard" message is from 500 to 900 lines.

Lenny
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:47:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Rantings from the "new" religious right

Was Robertson's letter sent out before or after George Bush, who
himself is a mainstream Episcopalian, received Robertson's,
Falwell's, and other Right-Wing religious lunatics' annointings?

Does anyone know if any of these people, or other prominent
Republicans, are Masons? Some Right-wing religious lunatics
believe that Masons are satanists.

Speaking of satanic conspiracies, the well-known cultist
the Rev. Sung Myung Moon, who certainly would not be approved of
by Robertson, Falwell, and other right wing religious lunatics,
owns the _Washington Times_, the well-known conservative
supporter of the Republican Party. Why would a satanic conspiracy
support the Republican Party if the GOP were not itself a part of
the conspiracy?

How long do we have until the election campaign is over?

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 10:48:14 CDT
From:         "Renato Barahona" <U17801@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Briefer rantings
              29 Aug 1992 16:05:35 EDT from <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>

On Sat, 29 Aug 1992 16:05:35 EDT Daniel A. Foss said:
>Agnes,
>
>Well, as the first step on my Spiritual Path toward transcendence of male
>northamericanism, whereat I was a total flop anyhow so good riddance, I am
>not, guru's orders, allowed to write more than you. It seems that men in the
>US talk twice as much as women, complain women talk too much, and interrupt
>them all the time.
>
>Guru is a macroeconomist from New Delhi. Usually you have to go to India as all
>the gurus in private practice are booked up; but as I said, where you find
>Chinese on this island you will also find Indians as a minority group. It's the
>disciple's job to seek out the guru. "I believe you are the smartest person in
>the building." "You lie, I am the most beautiful woman in this building. You
>must learn to experience me as pure cognitivity."
>
>Step two is, I have to get here even earlier than I would have to if I were
>working for a living every day weekends and legal holidays inclusive to
>overcome physical infirmity and male pride; guru would otherwise erase message
>on A(191) before 8. If there's no message in two years, I should make the
>appointment on this card to check on my purification.
>
>Daniel A. Foss


 Daniel, Daniel:  Of course some of us *peons* have heard rumors about the the
PF11 (Peek/Read) key. And we even used it from time to time (out of human curio
sity, I suppose), but your postings have me many of us dispense with its use, a
nd PF2 is terrific! One well-aimed push and poof, it's all gone.  Really, Danie
l, stay away from the caffeine/NO DOZ -- as well as from all sharp objects. Mod
est suggestions, to be sure -- hopefully good ones though.

Renato
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:37:38 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: musical borrowings

On Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:13:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
>On Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:58:19 EDT Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET> said:
>
>> an artist who borrows hasn't integrated the material into his/her own
>> oeuvre--it's still returnable--; an artist who steals has--no deposit, no
>> return.
>
>I don't understand the distinction that you are making, or the
>analogy that you are drawing.
>I would have thought that it is of greater artistic integrity to
>integrate the material into one's work, to make it one's own,
>internalize it, and begin to create with it, than not to
>integrate the material into one's own work--which last I take to
>mean to play for pay.

And I don't understand "play for pay" in the context.  I'm talking, first
about composers, not performers; second, about painters, authors, etc.

>I do not understand the analogy between a drinks bottle and a
>piece of music. If I don't return the bottle, but keep it on
>my shelf, then no one else can use that bottle. But if I "steal"
>a musical passage, I do not thereby prevent others from using
>the same passage.
>
Ah, but you do prevent others from using it in the way that you are using it.
Unless, of course, they are borrowers.  Borrowed material isn't yours, isn't
integrated with your artistic conception, can be disentangled from your work,
can be returned to the source, at least in some imaginative sense.  It is
*alien* to what you are about.  That's the nature of borrowing:  it isn't
yours & you have to give it back.  Steal something, file off the serial numbers
never have the slightest intention of giving it back--you make it something
of your own.  (Ok, in real life if you get caught, you might have to cough it
up.  But only if they find it.)  It isn't a matter of artistic integrity, but
of artistic quality:  if part of the oeuvre looks borrowed, we don't respect
it as much.  Do something new, imaginative, and uniquely your own with the
material, and we don't concern ourselves overly with where it originally came
from.  Bach stole from Vivaldi, I think, but it doesn't bother anyone, because
Bach made the material his own, with a result equally as pleasing.  If *I*
try to borrow from Vivaldi, you'll never let me keep it, and rightfully so;
I'm no Bach.

By the way, the original metaphor, somewhat changed, is borrowed from a 20th
century author whose name escapes me at the moment--possibly Faulkner, as the
imagery isn't uncommon with him.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Futzing
From: tbeaudoin@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 06:36:04 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City


	Since so many of us on this list are VAXaholics (or UNIXaholics),
I thought I would post (without permission) a short blurb from this
week's _Newsweek_ :

	COMPUTER GAMES


Enter the Futz Factor. A study to be released this week by a Sausalito,
CA software company called SBT concludes that 2 percent of America's
gross domestic product -- $97 billion -- is being "futzed away" by workers
who spend too much time tinkering with their PCs. The top futzes:

	FONT FUTZING: Spending too much time prettying up copy with fancy
typefaces, etc.
	THE NETWORK GNASH: Trying to link PCs so they can "talk" to each
other. Often leads to crashes in the early going.
	OFFICE BLOCK: Writing the same thing over and over because tinkering
is so easy.
	THE SPREAD WEB: Getting caught up in overly elaborate spreadsheets.
	PRESENTATION PERFECTION: Endlessly polishing charts, graphs, and
other snazzy doodads. 



Thomas Beaudoin
Lee' Summit High School
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 08:35:25 EDT
From: <CMH114@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: U.S Military Intervention

I noticed the reappearance of the idea of war as a failure of diplomacy/Govern
ment. While I'm always in favor of blaming government for all that is wrong
with the world, I'm afraid that looking at it this way tends to make a country
excessively cautious. There are certain situations, Iraq and Bosnia come to
mind, where it is necessary to make an immediate decision between options, mild
diplomacy to fullfledged blitzkreig, with out delay, or slow escalation from
mildest option to harshest. In Bosnia, this is resulting in uncontrolled blood-
shed and pogroms, while the Behomoths slowly escalate thier responses. In
Iraq's case, the current policy of confrontation is largely to the threatened
party's advantage, as they are able to buy time and mobility playing footsie,
as we slowly gear up each time. Enforcement of the ceasefire would probably
be better served by slightly erraticand harsh punitive attacks that the
current, rational, predictible series of responses. Of course, there is the
choice in both cases of staying completely out of affairs, and allowing things
to run their natural courses(although we have already committed ourselves in
Iraq's case). The question has to be, are you willing to get thousands killed
in Bosnia in the course of supressing that civil war( and anyone who thinks we
can just bring in humanitarian supplies, or settle differences amicably and
enforce a just peace is fooling themselves and ignoring the reality of the
situation) or, conversely, are you willing to see the Bosnian Muslem culture an
community destroyed and the bits blown to the Four corners of the world? Any
half-way response or partial involvement *will* deepen the mess and possibly
create a holocaust.This is what I mean when I claim that war needs to be seen
as a option of diplomacy, not a failure of it.
Sorry, this rant probably doesn't belong on this group.

Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Laboratories
Terraforming Division
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 10:45:23 +1000
From:         Marion Diamond <med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: the value of money
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

Denis - I agree entirely with the sentiment - please KEEP Rupert!  But
when we decimalised, the $A was made equivalent to 10 shillings, unlike
in Britain where they stayed with the pound as the unit.  So the stamp
is 4s.3d, the phone call is 2s.4d, and the newspaepr is 9 bob!
Cheers -
Marion
med@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:21:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: musical borrowings

On Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:37:38 EDT Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET> said:

> And I don't understand "play for pay" in the context.  I'm talking, first
> about composers, not performers; second, about painters, authors, etc.
>
The original discussion began about white performing pop artists
"stealing" the work of black pop performing artists.

> Ah, but you do prevent others from using it in the way that you are using it.
> Unless, of course, they are borrowers.  Borrowed material isn't yours, isn't
> integrated with your artistic conception, can be disentangled from your work,
> can be returned to the source, at least in some imaginative sense.     is

Sorry, but you have lost me here. There is too much reification for
my poor brain.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:19:58 CDT
From:         "Renato Barahona" <U17801@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Rantings from the "new" religious right

On Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:47:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
>Was Robertson's letter sent out before or after George Bush, who
>himself is a mainstream Episcopalian, received Robertson's,
>Falwell's, and other Right-Wing religious lunatics' annointings?
>
>Does anyone know if any of these people, or other prominent
>Republicans, are Masons? Some Right-wing religious lunatics
>believe that Masons are satanists.
>
>Speaking of satanic conspiracies, the well-known cultist
>the Rev. Sung Myung Moon, who certainly would not be approved of
>by Robertson, Falwell, and other right wing religious lunatics,
>owns the _Washington Times_, the well-known conservative
>supporter of the Republican Party. Why would a satanic conspiracy
>support the Republican Party if the GOP were not itself a part of
>the conspiracy?
>
>How long do we have until the election campaign is over?
>
>Denis Paz
>dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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