Newsgroups: soc.culture.asean
Subject: More replies (long...)
From: chuah@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (DanC)
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:05:44 +1200
Distribution: world
Organization: Electronic and Electrical Engineering Department, University of Canterbury, New Zealand.

Here are some replies to previous posts (sorry for the late post - 
software problems :-). ).

Azran says,

>The point that I am trying to make here is that all those who have
>criticized and  condemned the NEP and Gov't preferential treatment
>to the Malays, calling it discriminating, racist, cheating, stealing,
>unfair and downright rotten, often only look at personal situations
>from the microeconomic viewpoint. These books will give another
>perspective which I think most of the critics have missed, the Macroeconomic
>viewpoint.

Ok, lets look at it at the macro level.  When the Chinese came to 
Malaysia, we have $0.  The Brits & Malays owned everything.  We 
started from $0 and now we own a large portion of the economy,
or so say the govt.  The point is if the Chinese can do that on
our own, I cannot see why the Malays cannot.  If one advocates that
the Malays are not capable achieving economic well being without
help from the govt, he/she is indirectly saying the the Malays 
are an inferior race, a gross misjudgement indeed.  IMHO, all
races are born equal.  If the Chinese can make it from $0, I
cannot see how the Malays cannot make it from 20% of the economy.

>I don't say you should agree with these policies, but I am advocating
>that instead of just looking at how it effects or discriminates against
>you, try, for a change, to understand the why the policies makers created
>these policies and the goals on reshaping the Malaysian society
>from a national perspective. 

I certainly disagree with any policies which discriminates.

>And perhaps, if you still vehemently
>disagree with the policies, please come up with alternative policies
>that you think would have worked better, for the good of the country
>as a whole. 

Lets see.  A need based system would be good.  It need not be based
on any one race.

Lets look at some maths.

Assume the pupolation of Malaysia is 100.  50 of them are Malays,
40 of them Chinese, 10 of the Indians.  For simplicity of
calculation we will leave out the "Orang Asli" first.
Assume 40 of the 50 Malay are poor, 20 of the 40 Chinese
are poor and 5 of the 10 Indians are poor.  If we helped the 
needy, but not on a race basis, we would be helping 40 Malays,
20 Chinese and 5 Indians, effectively 65% of the population.
On the other hand, if we only help the Malays regardless of
economic well being, we would be helping 50%.  Tell me,
which if the two systems is more fair.  The one which
helps everybosy of the one that helps Malays only?  Don't the
poor of the other races deserve help too?  If we stick to
the needy equation, the Malays still get 40/65 = 62%.  If we 
continue with scheme, sooner or later the economic imbalance would
be addressed.

>>Yes.  The recent 30% compulsory bumiputera shares in Malaysian comnpanies.
>>If the business(wo)man has worked for the company, giving 30% shares
>>away to Bumiputeras is *STEALING*.  So there.

>If I may quote from Dr. Mahathir's "Malay Dilemma", pg. 42( near bottom),
>Chapter 4 (10th reprint 1989, published by Times Books International):

>	Everyone knows that more often than not these Malay directors have
>neither a single cent invested, nor probably have they the personal
>capacity to contribute to the all-important job of making profits for
>the company.  Everone knows that some of these Malays are merely selling
>their names and taking advantage of the policies of a government which wants
>to see a more equitable distribution of wealth. Everyone knows that this is
>not really what the Malays or anyone else want. But everyone also knows
>that there is  no alternative if the Malays are to get acquainted with the
>nerve centers of big business rapidly, as they must, if the gap between
>them and the non-Malays is not to be permanent.

I don't subscribe to this point of view.  IMHO, the only way to take on
the powerful Chinese business(wo)men is to compete against them.  By
forcing them to give 30% shares away will only culture resentment	
towards the Malay community.  Chinese businesses generally will only
respect their competitors.  People who do not make an effort to 
compete are looked down upon and sometimes this can be interpreted 
as a racist gesture.

>The only reason I can see why all of you are bitching about the government's
>policies is that it has made the accumulation (at it is still accumulating)
>of your wealth more cumbersome. Perfectly legitamate if all you care for
>is your wealth and not about issues like national stability and the 
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>social equality of the component races in the country. 

This statement implies -> If the Chinese is not "robbed", the Malays
will revolt and kill the Chinese.

------------------------
Chee-Keong says;

>  Inequlity issue aside, how come more and more of you guys are
>talking about entering local universities w/o first going thru
>the vigorous training of 6th form nowadays?  Is it true that
>it is the new trend these days?  After taking the 6th form myself,
>I think it was quite a vigorous training for me, especially the
>GP which helped me to sharpen up my written English as well as
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the logics of presenting an argument articulately.

FYI, GP is now PA (Pengajian Am) and its not conducted in English.

>  I may be prejudiced, but I sincerely think that those Chinese
>who have the guts to stay back and fight for a place in the local
>universities, and subsequently make it, are better than those who
>run away on mum-and-dad's scholarship.  By "better than" I mean
>they are more academically oriented, and have higher average IQ c.f.
>those who take the easy way of surviving on mum-and-dad's
>scholarship.  

You are certainly prejudiced.  Maybe all the overseas students you have
seen are those hairbrained who get $$$ from parents to study overseas
as a status symbol.  Let me give some statistics.  The batch of students
who came to NZ with me was top in every thing we sat for.  For example,
in the NZ 7th form 1988, all 23 of us who took the scholarhips exam
passed.  In previous years, the school only managed 2-3.  Bear in 
mind that only 100 scholarships are given out each year, and the
23 is i ONE school only.  However, overseas stidents are not
elligible for the scholarship money.  :-(.  Last year, in my finals,
there were 7 first class honours students among the 15 who were 
awarded.  The top student also is a Malaysian.

>Again, someone may quickly argue that these mediocre
                                             ^^^^^^^^
>students can be made into productive workforce too if given the
>opportunities.  

Mediocre?  Huh!  Speak for yourself.

I am not trying to brag but hey, get your facts straight before making
a sweeping statement.

>   Well, the above are just my opinions which I am entitled to
>under the spirit of freedom of expression vigorously pursued in this
>country.  

A quote:

"Everybody has the right to be wrong in his opinion but nobody has the
right to be wrong in his facts".

>Hopefully, such spirit can be in Malaysia soon.

Yeah, when we get a more matured govt.

>As a scholar, I won't want to lose my credibility
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>by making unsubstantiated and wild speculation.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Then you ought to know better not to make sweeping statements such as the
above.

-----------------------
Daniel Woo says,

>Azran, those Non-Malays were not the ones who claimed that they had it worst
>in the first place. I don't see the rationale of your statement.  Denise
                                                                   ^^^^^^
>was not making a sweeping statement about all Chinese had it worst, only
>the underpriviledged ones.

Ahem, mate, its Dennis, NOT Denise.  Just to get things straight.


-----------------------
Zam says,

>	I am as open minded as a person next door, but when I see a
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>clear-cut example of a group of people refusing to assimilate into a
>society just for the heck of it, it ticks me off...

Tis from a person who once said, "Hey, don't argue anymore.  Let the
Malay army loose on the Chinese.  We cannot lose..."
Gee, I don't want to live close to his neighbourhood - and I cartainly
don't want to assimiliate with people like him.

>	The Indonesian Government has achieved complete acculturation
>of its citizens by a force method.  If some Chinese do not have enough
>sense to learn the spoken-BM and learn it well like a native speaker,
>then maybe what the Indonesian Government did was the step that our
>government should follow.  It works in Indonesia, might as well try it
>in Malaysia.  

Idolise Indonesia.  Just remember that not so long ago we (<- note: the
"we") were fighting the Indonesians.  In fact they even landed on 
Malaysia.  I suppose you must have been the person who welcomed them with 
open arms....

>	Learning a language is not the same as mastering it.  I would
>rather that they learn and master the spoken art of it.  I never
>consider anyone who can't speak perfect BM as a citizen of Malaysia,
>because what distinguishes a Malaysian from other people in South East
>Asia is his/her ability to speak BM -- that is!!  That's how to tell a
>Malaysian apart from other nationalities from South-East Asia region.

Your idea what "mastering" the language is a bit eccentric.  One strives
to speak "generic" BM, ie BM that is free from local slangs, such as
the Kelantan slang.  That is the BM taught in schools.  Sure, 
Kelantanees can stick to their own slang but don't ecpect anyone else
to use it, especially the non-Malays.  Look at the other languages of
the world and you will see what I mean.  Look at English. There must be
a hunderd and one different local slangs (eg. Yorkshire, Mercy Side...).
It is just not possible to teach English to cover all those slangs.
So a "generic" slang is taught, ie BBC English or Queen's English.
This is the right "slang" to speak.  The same goes for BM.

>	Could you ever blame the government for treating the Chinese
>as second class citizens 

At last, someone admits that the govt. has been treating the
Chinese as second class citizens...the point I have been trying
to say all along.

>What
>we have right now is a huge portion of the population who ignores the
                        ^^^^
>language (ed: BM), making the government's effort to narrow down the
>differences between the major races a much harder task.  

Define huge and give numbers to back your claim up.

>        The Malaysian government, because of their sensitivity to the
>other races, did not follow the lead of other ASEAN nations such as
>Indonesia, Thailand, and the Philippines in dealing with its minority
>problems.  These ASEAN nations force their Chinese citizens to
>integrate into the society.  A Chinese can't use his Chinese name in
>Indonesia; in the Philippines, there are laws instituted by former
>President Marcos that forced every Chinese citizen to change his/her
>name to the Filipino name.  

I only have to say, compare the economy of the countries you
mentioned against that of Malaysia's.  That is the result of forced
assimiliation.

>In Thailand, most Chinese use Thai names.

BUT, the Chinese in Thailand were NOT forced to use them.  They were
treated fairly by the Thais and thought it would be a good idea
to write their CHINESE name in Sanscrit.

>        There are a number of ways to solve this problem.  All of them
>will receive some kind of opposition from the Chinese community...

>2) Make the oral part of BM SPM to be some 50% of the total grade;
>failure to pass the oral part means a failure in SPM.  This will add
>much more emphasis on spoken BM and the younger generation will not
>take it lightly as the previous generations did.

Good idea - I don't think this would receive much opposition.

>3) Divide BM to make it more than just 1 subject.  Right now, BM is
>only one of the nine subjects in school; make it two of the ten
>subjects or so.  In other words, add the oral part as a completely new
>subject with a passing in this subject imperative to passing SPM.

Neither will this.

>4) Ban other languages, especially languages that are deemed to be
>detrimental to the development of BM.  If for instance, a large number
>of improficient BM speakers come from one race, then that's race's
>language should be banned from being spoken in any place, with the
>offenders having to pay a $500 fine or so.

This we fill fight against.  You have said before, you are not against 
the Chinese retaining their culture (and hance language), so
you must be contridicting yourself.

>5) All posters, public signs or what-have-you must be in BM.  No other
>languages should be permitted other than English, for English is an?
>international language.

Isn't this already the case?

>Take a
>good look at KL, Ipoh, Johor Baharu, Penang, etc: as a Malay, I am
>extremely disgusted by what is going on in these places.  If you take
>pictures of these cities and forget to put captions underneath these
>pictures, people might mistaken them for Beijing, or Kowloon.

This statement is definetely a contridiction from a person who is
not against the Chinese retaining their culture.  Either that or he
dislikes the houses Chinese live in.

>The yellow man made many promises to us but they never kept but one; they
>promised to take our land and they took it.
>                                                        White Cloud

The brown man made many promises to us they never kept but one; they
promised to take our money and they took it.
                                                        Clear Mountain
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah that is my CHINESE name.  :-).

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