HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nightsng@anarky.tch.org (Nightsong)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Q: 'Illustrated Encyc. of Middle Earth' available?
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 15:41:06 PST
Organization: The Canned Ham, San Jose, CA.

charest@Aig.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Len Charest) writes:

> While shopping in Boston last week I came across a large coffee table type bo
> whose title was *something like* 'The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Middle Eart
> The book was organized around topics such as the geography of Middle Earth, f
> and fauna, etc. I found it very interesting, but I didn't buy it because I
> assumed I could find it anywhere...
> 
> Well, now that I'm back in LA I realize what a mistake I made. I can't find i
> anywhere. The Books in Print database has no entry for this book by title, or
> keyword search on encyclopedia, middle, earth, tolkien, etc. Either this book
> out of print or its printed outside the US.
> 
> Tolkien fans, help! If you can provide me with further information about this
> book, especially verification that it is in print somewhere, please e-mail me
> the address below. Note: I am not looking for 'The Atlas of Middle Earth'. Th
> book I saw was something different. TIA.
> ..................................................
>                                   Len Charest, Jr.
>                  JPL Artificial Intelligence Group
>                           charest@aig.jpl.nasa.gov

 
 It's called _Tolkien The Illustrated Encyclopaedia_ by David Day and I 
would definitely recommend it.  I live in Campbell and a nearby 
bookstore, "Books Inc." carried it.  In fact, they have an entire shelf 
of Tolkien books, next to the fantasy section.  It's in Town and Country 
Village but I doubt you  will be visiting that if you are in Los Angeles. 

-Nightsong
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: stssram@st.unocal.COM (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Eowyn, Destiny, and Settling Down Re: Eowyn
Reply-To: Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com
Organization: Unocal Energy Resources Division
	<1992Dec17.125855.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>
	<1992Dec17.222119.26100@leland.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Dec18.110544.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:17:08 GMT

>>>>> On Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:05:44 GMT, krsear02@ulkyvx.louisville.edu (Kendall 'Opusii' Sears) said:

Kendall> Do they not?  Let's see.  Frodo heads to the West with Bilbo,
Kendall> Mithrandir, and the great majority of the Elves for
Kendall> specifically THAT purpose.  To settle down.  This is not to
Kendall> say that every one gets married and has lots of children.  My
Kendall> "settle down" above is not an implication of that.  Settling
Kendall> down is to lead a more leisurely life, which is what Bilbo
Kendall> says to Mithrandir after the Party.  Merry and Pippin do
Kendall> indeed settle down, no longer are they warriors after the
Kendall> cleansing of the Shire.  Legolas and Gimli no longer spend
Kendall> their time counting scores of Orc heads taken, nor do they
Kendall> revel in the excitement of the hunt for Hobbits, they settle
Kendall> into a life of travel.  Both had spent a great part of their
Kendall> (long) lives fighting one foe or another but when given the
Kendall> chance after the war they decided to see the sights of Middle
Kendall> Earth.  Is that not settling down?


It seems to me that you'd say they all settled down no matter what they did after the war.

("Gee, they're no longer fighting the War of the Ring. They must be settling down.")

What would it take to have a character *not* settle down after the War for you?
Maybe Aragorn should have given up the throne and gone back to the woods.
Maybe Legolas and Gimli should have spent the rest of their lives on a quest to
exterminate the race of orcs.  Maybe things were just a little bit quieter after the war.




--
Bob Myers                              Unocal Energy Resources Division
Internet: Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com      Exploration and Seismic Technology
Phone: [714] 693-6951                  P. O. Box 68076
                                       Anaheim, California 92817-8076
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: 21 Dec 1992 14:34:59 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

As another twist on the Eowyn thing...

Part of the draw of LOTR is that it is believable.  Part of what makes
it believable is that its cultures mirror things that we know of
Earth culture.

Now, admittedly middle ages Earth culture was sexist.  But that fact would
make it less believable if the Rohirrim had their shield-maiden's brigade
for Eowyn to lead into battle.

So perhaps rather then being sexist, Tolkien was reflecting the world that
he was describing, a world based on Earth medieval societies.

After all, the most effective "warrior" in all of the Middle Earth 
stories is a woman, Luthien Tinuviel, who, with the help of a dog in
one case and single handedly in another, manages to defeat both
Sauron and Morgoth.  Not to mention moving Mandos to pity!

(Of course, one could argue that Luthien is using sexual skills to
accompilsh these goals (ie, using her beauty, singing, and dancing
to enchant the males involved).  Does this mean that Tolkien is 
saying that feminine wiles are more powerful than masculine 
warfare?)

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: suwandi@fraser.sfu.ca (Julian Suwandi)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:42:36 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

>In article <EGDORF.92Dec16162253@zaphod.lanl.gov> egdorf@zaphod.lanl.gov (Skip Egdorf) writes:
>>>   In article <BzAAIH.685@unix.amherst.edu>, jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes...
>>>   >I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
>>>   >when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>>>   >Fire"?
>>>
>>
>>I always thought that this was a referance to his secret ownership of
>>the ring of fire.

>Ah, but Gandalf is not the servant of his ring.  The ring is his tool.
>Therefore, I'd think this refers to the fire of creation, as others
>have suggested.

>(Although I agree with you that Gandalf's skills with fireworks and
>fireballs (in the Hobbit) owe something to the ring...)

I don't know if anyone have answered this already or not (cos this is my first
posting in this place) but in the Similarion, it explains that Gandalf is a 
demi-god. So I think that 'a servant of the Secret Fire' refers to the master
he is serving (a greater god).

What do u think guys?
-- 
    ********************** KEEP CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS *********************
      Julian Suwandi        |  Quotes / Unquote of the week
         643-0827           |      Insanity is hereditary... 
      suwandi@sfu.ca        |      You get it from your kids.
From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: ME maps
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:31:18 GMT

From article <MVOORHIS.92Dec18194511@granite.WPI.EDU>, by mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis):
> You mention that ICE does `fill in' gaps.  This is what I find
> objectionable.  If ICE is going to publish what amounts to a reference work
> about Tolkien's world, then they should at least mention that they took
> liberties, filling in gaps where there was no documented evidence of a
> certain thing that they claimed was a fact.
> 

As one of Iron Crown's authors in the Middle-earth line, I'd like
to make a few comments.  First and foremost, ICE is a gaming company
and although they have some good editors, they are not JRR or
Christopher.  I happen to really like the works produced by them, 
but they are not literary works in the true sense of the word.
Their works are intended for gamers who require all of the gaps
to be filled in.  It IS their intetion though to offer a full
world that stays as close to Tolkien's mythos as possible.  As
one of their authors (Greater Harad and Nazgul's Citadel), I 
attempted to recreate a portion of Tolkien's world through a work of
my own and since I picked an area that was outside of LoTR, I
hoped to be able to expand Tolkien's mythos.  

The mention of Tom Bombadil is an interesting one and as we saw
with the discussion on who he was, it is not clear and all have
their own opinion in the matter.  I for one like the theory
that Tom Bombadil is actually Aule gone native.  An article
in the Mythlore Journal a year or two ago gave credence (sp)
to this theory.  In some of the ICE works, they do indicate
what they have added and what is actual *fact*.  I would not
throw away the baby with the bathwater in regards to them, but
I would look at their works as one way of interpreting Tolkien's
world.
From: astinus+@pitt.edu (Mark E Porterfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: copywrite and some other intresting stuff. MUSHing
Date: 22 Dec 92 03:41:10 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

Is it true Tolkien didn't copywrite some stuff??? I can't believe it.

Anyway, I know this is not the general place to annouce things of this
nature but....


For those of you who know what MUSHing is there is a Tolkien themed MUSH
running out there.  Access is restricted so you would have to request
gaming accounts.  The restriction is only to be sure that all players are
Tolkiens aware and going to adhear to the theme (NO space travelers).

For those who are not familiar with MUSHing let me explain a few things.
They are text based Role Playing games.  Players (only certain ones) can
build the game (we have restricted building).  Players are able to interact
in character (or Out Of Character).  It is GREAT fun!!!  Currently, only
The Hobbiton and Buckland are open to all players with all major (and a few
minor areas) under construction.  It would be great to get a few Elves and
hobbits to run shops, Inns and have housing in there respective areas.

Elendor has the possibility of being one heck of a MUSH.  Right now we need
players (energetic) to liven the place up a bit ;-) 

Anyone intrested should e-mail me for the address and the guest acccess until
Manwe and Varda are back from break to create actual accounts.

Mark E. Porterfield
Master Elrond
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Reply-To: s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 03:31:12 GMT

	In my personal opinion the mushroom thief story belongs in
alt.sex.stories or other such stomping grounds for ths kind of garbled filth.
Tolkien didn't create a world of bestialist and perverted hobbits.
Please excuse the very biased and tempermental form of this posting,
but Maggot was not a creep, and Tolkien's stories deserve more respect
than that which was given. Please don't demean him, his tales, the other
readers, or yourself with this insidious attack on a morally uplifting
chronicle.
                                     Thank you for your time.
                                           bjc
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:10:53 GMT


Then what is the Flame of Anor that Gandalf wields?  The fire of this
greater god or the Third Ring?

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: vhulzen@eir.research.ptt.nl (Hulzen W. van)
Subject: Re: Dutch Translation of LOTR names
Reply-To: W.H.P.vanHulzen@research.ptt.nl
Organization: PTT Research, The Netherlands
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 09:51:26 GMT

wgkramer@cs.vu.nl (Ewout Kramer) writes:

>While reading the Dutch version of LOTR, I noticed that many names
>have been changed to some Dutch equivalent in such a way that I can't
>"de-translate" them to the originals. e.g. 'Bilbo Baggins' is translated
>by 'Bilbo Baling'. Does anyone know WHY this was done ? Maybe someone has
>a list of Dutch<->English names in the LOTR ??

As I recall the name in dutch is actually 'Bilbo Balings', but that a small
point (I don't have my LOTR at hand).

I alway took 'Baggins' as being derived from 'bag' since I compared it to the
name 'Balings'.  The name 'Balings' is then derived from the Dutch word 'baal'
(meaning bag) in the same way as 'Baggins' is derived from bag.
This is in my opinion also the reason for such translation: to keep the
meaning for names that have one.

There are other name translations, 'Strider' -> 'Stapper' to name one, but I
can't recall any (it's been some time since I read the Dutch version).

---
Wilfried H.P. van Hulzen         - PTT Research Neher Laboratories
Tel: +31 70 3326402              - P.O. Box 421, 2260 AK Leidschendam
                                 - The Netherlands
E-mail : W.H.P.vanHulzen@research.ptt.nl

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Date: 31 Dec 92 11:32:46
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<TJG01.92Dec31093404@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM's message of Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:34:22 GMT


> Well done, Micheal. I agree in part with this last. Illuvatar could have
> sent a persona to Middle-earth to `get the lay of the land', but I think it
> not very likely. What I DO think is that Manw:e could have done it.
> Remember that the Valar were very reluctant to interfere with Middle-earth,
> and only did so when ruin was imminent (Melkor, for example).

Why would Eru have to send anyone to Middle earth to `get the lay of the
land'?  Everything that ever happened there was as a result of Eru's
thought... He knew what would be happening, when, where, how, who,
etcetera.

If bombadil was sent as an observer, it was done a *long* time before there
were any problems at all in middle earth.  Why would bombadil be set to
watch over the eastern Shire before there were hobbits or elves or trees or
men there?

Hmmmmmm

	Mike
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Date: 31 Dec 92 04:49:32 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada

Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn) writes:
>Well, how about the Ents/Alliance against the Huorns/Sauron...some
>Huorns were known to be 'black-hearted' and 'rotten' (Old Man Willow),
>so it wouldn't be hard to imagine them fighting for Sauron.  I realize
>Ents and Huorns are two different races, but perhaps they had the same
>roots. (ooo, terrible pun) ;-)

I think you're mixing up things here.  Ents were the intelligent trees, and
Huorns were the animal-like trees.  Huorns were not evil, just either
awakening into sentience or fading from sentience to mere tree (I'm sure
Fangorn could argue about the sentience of trees but I'm not going to).

Old Man Willow was probably somewhere between Ent and Huorn.  He clearly
had enough cunning to trap the hobbits, and so was not of animal intelligence
like a Huorn (which basically followed the nearest Ent's orders and probably
defended itself a bit if attacked).

Ents and Huorns are NOT two different "races".  They are both sentient
trees of the same nature.  Ents are becoming Huornish and Huorns are becoming
Entish as they "awaken" or "go to sleep", and this is happening all the time,
at least according to Fangorn.

But I agree with you that there were probably evil Ents and Huorns in the
first War against Sauron.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Where do orcs go upon dying?
Date: 22 Dec 1992 15:24:02 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1992Dec18.191634.26691@b11.b11.ingr.com> craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson) writes:
>In particular, I don't think what you say here is attested; I
>remember statements about the Orcs being made _in mockery of elves_ or
>some such, in similar vein to the creation of Dwarves from stone by
>Aule.

I believe that the Silmarillion has a passage where it says that 
early elves were captured by Melkor and tormented in his dungeons, and
that soon after the first orcs appeared.  Other elves made the 
assumption that they were corrupted elves.  (Sorry I don't have
the book present, or I would quote.)
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Redemption in LOTR
Date: 23 Dec 1992 12:17:07 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <2b3895b8.e4c@lhn.gns.cri.nz> mdlcpgs@lhn.gns.cri.nz writes:
>While not exactly in sevice of Sauron or Morgoth, the fate of Boromir
>is also a redemptive story in LOTR.
>	Phil

I'd class that as a case where a decent person did an evil act that he
later regretted.  I find the example of the Dead more in line with what
I was thinking of.
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: 21 Dec 1992 15:17:34 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1992Dec17.181353.29896@genie.slhs.udel.edu> nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>
>This is something I find a little irritating--hobbits are supposed to
>be extremely family centered, but the four hobbits on the expedition
>never seem to think about their relatives.

In addition to the other examples mentioned, Sam always seems concerned
with how the Gaffer is doing.  He is almost ready to turn back to the
Shire after seeing the damage being done to Hobbiton in the Mirror of
Galadriel.
From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: ME maps
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:57:32 GMT

From article <1h55rsINNbj4@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, by mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis):
> I don't really care what ICE does in the lane of speculation, as long as
> they publish their material as such.  They shouldn't publish their
> materials as fact, they should put a disclaimer on it or something!  Sounds
> really stupid, of course, to put a disclaimer on a piece of fiction,
> stating that it is fictional with respect to another work of fiction which
> fanatics (like myself) research as if it were factual...
> 

Here is a direct quote from one of my game game aids (modules):

Fantasy role playing is akin to a living novel where the players are
the main characters.  Everyone combines to write a story which is never
short of adventure.  They help create a new land and strange new tales.

This series is designed as a tool for Gamemasters who wish to run 
scenarios or campaigns set in JRR Tolkien's Middle-earth. . .
The modules are, however, adaptable for use with most major role
playing games.  Creative guidelines, not absolutes, are emphasized.

Each module is based on extensive research and attempts to meet
the high standards associated with the Tolkien legacy.  Rational
linguistic, cultural, and geological data are employed.  Interpretive
material has been included with great care, and fits into defined
patterns and schemes.  ICE does not intend it to be the sole
or proper view; instead, we hope to give the reader the thrust of the
creative process and the chgaracter of the given area.

Remember that the ultimate sources of information are the works
of Professor Tolkien.  Posthumous publications edited by his son
Christopher shed additional light on the world of Middle-earth.

> I don't know.  I just object to ICE adding noise to the clear flow of
> historical research on Middle Earth.  People will think that all of ICE's
> MERP work is factual, when it isn't.  Tell me, anyone with the ICE stuff--
> does ICE back up their work with citations from books?  *or* do they state
> that something `is possible' or `is speculated' when they do NOT have actual
> supporting data?  That would make me feel a little better...
> 

And who are you to say that they are not worthy to add to the clear (?)
flow of historical research on Middle-earth?  Tolkien's works are not
*factual*.  They are works of fantasy.  ICEs works attempt to bring
Tolkien's works alive for a certain group of people and their literary
works are as important as your work in Tolkien's universe.  You
should do a little more research before you condemn.
From: davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu (Stimpson J. Cat)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Where do orcs go upon dying?
Date: 22 Dec 92 03:21:11 GMT
Organization: Seattle University
NNTP-Posting-Host: sumax.seattleu.edu

In article <1992Dec21.164739.28437@mcs.kent.edu> mcconnel@mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell) writes:

*********************** My stuff deleted **********************************

> Doesn't Gandalf surmise that if the ring is destroyed, Sauron will become only 
>a relatively powerless evil, lurking in shadows, unable to take any form.  I
>always thought that this would be the fate of Saruman's spirit as well.
>
>Mike McConnell
>Dept of Mathematics
>Kent State Univesity


	That's true, I remember him saying something like that. My theory to
reconcile that was: Gandalf was speaking of the "residual evil" of Sauron-
the leftover orcs, corrupted men, evil creatures, places made evil like
Mordor and Minas Ithil, etc. that were made so by Sauron. Sauron being
"destroyed" or whatever happened to him could not "create" more evil or grow
again. I don't know how to visualize what Sauron would be in his reduced
state, if he still had a remaining identity after the destruction of his 
Ring. A ghost? I don't know. But that would beg the question what of all
the Maiar that turned to evil, like the Balrogs? Rather than having a bunch
of weakened spirits floating about, it seems "cleaner" to me to think they
all go into the Void, perhaps to emerge again when Melkor comes back (he'll
neeed some sort of army, I would suppose, to challenge the Valar in the Last
Battle.) But as I say all that I have written here is pure speculation that
sounds nice to me, and if I see something definite on the subject, or see
something that sounds better, I'll go with that.




					David L. Yee
				email to:davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cspas164@sus.edu.eur.nl (R.M. Hutjes)
Subject: Re: New Tolkien calendar
Organization: EUR
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 10:11:12 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

>Anyone out there see the 1993 Tolkien calendar?  A friend gave me a copy
>for Christmas.  It's all watercolors, and very dark, but I like it.
>In particular, I like the depiction of the orcs (who look like debased
>elves).  I also like the picture of the Nazgul, that just shows the
>black horses and a vague blur.

>Anyone out there have any comments, or other comments about other
>Tolkien calendars?

Yeah, I have the calender too. It's pretty nice, allthough I don't like the
style the artist used.
I have this years calender though, and it's pictures are very nice. They are
painted by Ted Nasmith, from Canada... The pictures are more clearer and
precise than 93's calender.
The pictures are :
An unexpected morning visit (tkane from the Hobbit)
No way down (LOTR)
Tuor at Vinyamar (The Unfinished Tales) 
Farewell to Lorien (LOTR)
At the court of the fountain (LOTR)
Eowyn and the Lord of the Nazgul (LOTR, and one of my faves)
The Anger of the mountain (LOTR, this painting is also on the cover of the 
			   calender.)
Morgoth and the High king of the Noldor (Simarillion, defenitly the best of the 
					 lot !!)
The Last words of Boromir (LOTR)
The Glittering caves of Aglarond (LOTR)
Gollum's Debate (LOTR)
The Shores of Valinor (Silmarillion)

Are there more Tolkien Calenders ?
Rob Hutjes.

-- 
From Rob Hutjes, from Erasmus University in Rotterdam, Holland.
E-mail: cspas164@sus.eur.nl
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien