From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Furstenburg and other things
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 09:39:44 GMT

INFIDEL (wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au) wrote:
: 
: david mardiste <dam@coombs.anu.edu.au> writes:
: 
: >In article <1aue65INNlm5@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> INFIDEL,
: >wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au writes:
: >>david mardiste <dam@coombs.anu.edu.au> writes:
: >>>In article <1araklINNj85@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> INFIDEL,
: >>>wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au writes:
: 
: > 
: 
: Perhaps the most telling data so far are the figures reported by BNS and
: ITAR-TASS (October 9,10) on Russian emigration from the baltics in 1992.
: According to data of the Russian Migration Service, the rate of emigration of
: Russians from Latvia and Estonia is increasing, but decreasing from
: Lithuania  as follows:
: 
: 		RUSSIAN EMIGRATION 1991/1992
: 
:   from		1991        	Jan-Jun 1992
: 
: Estonia		8200			17000
: Lithuania     	10000			6000
: Latvia		13000			8500
: 
: Recall that Estonia's total population is a fraction of Lithuania's, yet the
: emigration figure is 3 times higher --- as well as increasing at an
: alarming rate.

Crazy!
Hmmm, you are comparing total population of the countries with the emigration,
it is very fuzzy logics!
Why you do not compare the amount of Russians with the figures of
emigration? 

Along the census of 1989 there were 344000 ethnic russians in Lithuania
and along the latest news there are 475 000 ethnic russians in Estonia.
(I have not figures of Latvia.)

So  c. 6000 russians of c. 344000 are leaving Lithuania compared
with c. 17000 leaving of c. 475000 russians of Estonia.
(Well remember that the moscovites claim that there are 600 000
russians in Estonia, 40 % of the population) Which numbers should
we use? Shall we use the latest ones? Or is it so that the moscovites
choose which is more desirable?

May be we take this 600 000 because it is used so eagerly by the russians
even on this net, so we see that the number of emigrants from Estonia
compared with Lithuania is VERY LOW.  Just the contraty what you claim!!!

Make some calculation. And I can confirm when Rutskoi et. co. start
the economical sanctions the flow of russians just is incrieasing from
Estonia.And Moscow's propagandist and their believers get a reason
to claim that the fault is the estonians. Post-communist knoe how to
make propaganda, use fuzzy logics and then we have people who like
to believe them.

 But Rutskoi is not very wise person as the Russia's leaders
are not in generally. Think which kind of leaders Russians have had
during this century! A bunch more or less stupid people. What good they
have done for Russia? Does the
russians deserve that? What do you think?

: 
: Is it a mere coincidence that such high increases in Russian emigration
: figures occur in the states that have enacted a citizenship law that
: denies a basic civil right to the ethnic minorities on its soil?

Or Moscow threathens  economical sanctions against Estonia?

: 
: With regards to the sort of people you have been interviewing and
: reading about (if they are supporters of the citizenship law); they may
: call themselves the Progressive Pensioner Party if they wish --- the
: fact remains that an effect of their policies that's increasing in
: importance is the driving of an ethnic minority  from the land of its
: birth, thus strengthening the position of "true" Estonians, a term
: given definition and normative weight in the terms of the citizenship
: law, namely, citizens of the interwar republic and their kin.  Supporters 
: of the bill are nationalists if not by will then by default; and they
: would be rightly considered as such by the international community.
: 

You are mixing up, with clear mind? , ethnic minorities and immigrants
with each others. Read the Citizenship Law of Estonia. I have sent it to this
newsgroup some time ago.

: As a case to point, Radio Free Europe (Oct 13) reports that the Russian
: Vice President Alexander Rutskoi reiterated Russia's threat to impose
: economic sanctions on Estonia unless it altered its citizenship laws.
: According to Reuter, citing BBC on 12 October, Rutskoi's major objection
: was the language requirement.
: 
And so the flow of russians is increasing and of course that is to blame
the estonians. So we get again some more arguments for the propaganda
against the estonians. That is what MOscow needs. 




: The triviality of the requirement is not the issue; the issue is that a
: requirement exists at all. The importance of learning 1500 words pales  in
: comparison with the social forces released by state-backed dicrimination
: against the ethnic minority. Already we are hearing reports of
: desecration of Jewish cemetries (80 in Tartu, in the fourth such
: incident since November; and firebombing of a cultural centre) ["WE"
: Washington Bureau, last week of September]. In the same report, we read
: of official sanctioning of celebrations to mark the 50'th anniversary of
: the Estonian Legion, which later became the 20'th division of the SS
: whose Einzatzgruppen Kommando units were responsible for the roundup and
: execution of hundreds of thousands of Jews and others in the Baltic area.
: 
Well, you have to know english in order to become US citizen just
as an example. Who were the atackers in Tartu? Any details?

: Of course, injustice within Estonia's borders occurred on a far smaller
: scale than in other nearby occupied states. That's to be
: expected, given Estonia's small population. So it's naive to focus on
: what happened within its borders, esp. with respect to pre-war anti-Semitism.
: The WW2 deeds of some of Estonia's citizens, to the extent that Estonians of
: a militarist bent joined fascist forces, travelled abroad and
: participated in unwarranted mass-murders, and later returned to normal
: civilian life in Soviet Estonia following defeat at the hands of the
: Red Army, may yet prove to be to the detriment of the current
: republic now that it's government has stumbled off-balance.
: 
Blah, blah blah....
Direct from KGB handbook.

: The exodus from Estonia includes Jews from a centuries-old
: community in Tallinn. What could the emigrants possibly have to fear ?
: 
Are they not going to Israel?


: Rutskoi is acting on behalf of the Russian minority within Estonia; he
: is obliged to do this by international conventions which were drawn up
: to guarantee the rights of ethnic minorities in foreign countries. In
: this regard, Estonia's Progressive Pensioner Party has worked against
: its own interests in supporting the enactment of a discriminatory law.
: 
Rutskoi is making politics against the russians in Estonia. 
: 

Jarmo Ryyti
: 
: 
: 
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