From: demillo@juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Robert DeMillo )
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.ghost-stories
Subject: Re: The Death Car and the Real Story
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:08:09 GMT
Distribution: alt.folklore.ghost-stories
Organization: M.I.T. Lincoln Lab: Fine Food and Coffee

In article <96583@netnews.upenn.edu> kbanner@ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Kenneth J. Banner) writes:


> Although, I appreciate the information on the Death Car
> stories, I think Rob DeMillo is assuming too much:

Possibly, it's happened before. ;)

	  1) Does the fact that one can trace "Death Car" stories
> back to the 1938 incident mean that all occurrences of this
> theme found anywhere must therefore be linked to that origin? 

I didn't claim that the "Death Car" folklore traces back to the 1938
incident. What I said was the earliest "telling" of the Death Car
fable traces back to a small town in Michigan in 1940's. In 1938, 
there was a *real* incident of a dead body being left in a car for
3 months. 

Although I didn't claim that the real death was the origin, I did
state it in such a way that the reader could make an inference. It
seems reasonable that it *was* the origin of the tales, but of course 
there is no way to prove it.

>	  2) ...In Folklorist David Hufford's book, _The
> Terror that Comes in the Night:  An Experience-Centered Study
> of Supernatural Assault Traditions_  (Univ. of Penn Press,
> 1982) he examines a Newfoundland tradition called the "Old
> Hag"... <explains the "can't move in bed" phenomena>...
> ...Hufford has found hundreds of cases where people
> claim to have personally had the experience in Newfoundland,
> the United States  and other parts of the world.  In a
> significant percentage of cases individuals have had this
> happen to them who have no knowledge of the tradition.

I hesitate to bring this up here, but this subject has been 
given non-supernatural explanations...and it is apparently 
quite common in the medical community. 

However, rather than burst a previous poster's bubble of 
having an "open mind," I'll not give the supposed rationalization
of this topic unless the alt.folklore.ghost-stories community 
requests it...

	  Studies like Hufford's show that folklore can develop
> around repeated experiences.  Rob DeMillo gives us only two
> choices:  either Albert Chiang's source is lying or Albert
> himself is lying.  There is a third option Rob.  Maybe
> Albert's source actually went through such an incident.

Well, that is true to an extent, Ken. However there are some
important differences. Folklore is employed as a method of
handing down legends through the generations. These legends
originate through either first hand experience, fancied-up versions
of first hand experience, or a fictious experience.

However, in the case of Hufford's (good text, by the way) study
of the "Old Hag," the supernatural is called upon not to explain 
a subjective experience, but an objective one. The "unable to 
move after waking" phenomenon happens to many people...it is not
just an isolated incident that is subject to one person's point of
view.

In the case of Albert's story, it was related as a subjective
experience. One writing I had of the story used Albert's discription
almost verbaitum...furthermore, Albert did not label the
event as a story, but rather as an actually happening.  

Granted Ken, this leaves us with your three choices: Albert'
source is lying, Albert is lying, or the event actually happened to 
Albert's friend. Let's try and sort this out (as a lot of ghost stories
should be sorted out) using Occum's Razor: if one or more explanations
exist for a given event, pick the one that is the least implausible.
Out of the three choices you gave us, which one would you pick as 
least implausible?

>  Folklore and experience are not necessarily antithetical categories.

Actually, I believe they are. If one assumes the definition that 
folklore is a tale or explanation that is handed down through 
generations in a localized area, then folklore *does* imply that 
the talespinner could not have experienced the original event.


> Albert or his friend of a friend may indeed be trying to pull
> one on us.  But I've always found it refreshing that the
> discipline of Folklore places such a strong emphasis upon
> examining the evidence before drawing conclusions.

Actually, it doesn't. The "discipline" of folklore places no such 
emphasis. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact. It assumes 
that the listen place complete trust in the talespinner. 

There is a difference between folklore and reported supernatural
phenomenon. The set of all folklore contains the set of all
reported supernatural events...not the otherway around. (If I
see a ghost tomorrow and tell the net, it does not qualify as
folklore. If my children's children relate the same event 
years from now, it does.

Just to set the record straight. I love folklore...I always have.
A long standing hobby of mine is to collect it, and track down
possible origins of ones that interest me. (I have published 
a couple of papers on Arthurian legend.)

I also love ghost stories...I always have. Do I believe in 
ghosts and the supernatural? I dunno...I can't answer that, 
the jury is still out in my mind. I have had a number of personal
experiences, none of which I could apply Occum's Razor to and 
say "Ah ha! I have seen a ghost/UFO/non-conservative-republican!"
But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Our friend from the previous post insisted that I leave Albert
alone and "keep an open mind." I assure you that I *do* have an
open mind...but its not so far open that my brains spill out
all over the floor. Albert's story was, in my opinion, fabricated as
a farce to try an add to the net collective of ghost stories. Again,
that is my opinion only...

Be that as it may...happy ghosting. ;)

--


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Newsgroups: alt.folklore.ghost-stories