HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: epstein@sparc9.cs.uiuc.edu (Milt Epstein)
Subject: Re: So where have all the Mets fans gone?
Keywords: quiet while losing
Reply-To: epstein@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 03:39:50 GMT

In <1992Aug24.193458.26568@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:

>Didn't several people predict at the beginning of the year that the
>Mets would be plagued by injuries?  They may have had a couple more
>than expected, but when you start the season with that many 30 year
>old players, and that many injury-prone pitchers (Saberhagen, Gooden,
>and Fernandez), injuries are bound to happen.

Since when is 30 considered old and an age when players are more
liable to get injured?  Or do you mean "in their 30's", not just "30"?
How many players do the Mets have that are well past 30?  The ones I
can think of are Randolph and Murray, neither of whom have been
injured much (at all?) this season (Randolph was injured recently, but
that was due to being hit by a pitch).


>Which is why paying big bucks for 35 year old players is a bad idea.
>Of course if they remain healthy (like Winfield), they can be
>bargains.  But serious injuries are more common.

Similarly, how many 35 year olds did the Mets pay big bucks for?
Murray?  He's not even one of the ones that has been injured.

-- 
Milt Epstein
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois
epstein@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rja@redwood26.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: Kreuger trade & a though on Witt
Originator: rja@redwood26
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Date: 2 Sep 92 07:48:05 CDT


In article <20027@plains.NoDak.edu>, sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan ) writes:
> TK, it seems was fed up with Krueger, but I do not understand as
> to why he traded him. He could have used him as a releiver.
> Anyway....Krueger was a source of frustration for the Twins,
> this past 1 month.

So has another lefty on the Twins (can you say Whiplash?), yet he's
made it through another trading deadline.

Darren Reed?  Either the next Shane Mack or Johnny Moses...

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gerry@macadam.mpce.mq.edu.au (Gerry Myerson)
Subject: 1966 (Was, Re: AL Cy Young update)
Organization: CeNTRe for Number Theory Research
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 00:35:44 GMT

In article <1459000005@igc.apc.org>, Global Action Network <gan@igc.apc.org> writes:

[...]

> (1) Roger Clemens who leads or is close to the league lead in 
> every meaningful category and is playing for a pitifully poor
> Red Sox team which may finish in the basement for the first time
> since 1966.

Final standings, 1966 (excerpt)

Boston    72-90  .444  26 games behind  9th place
New York  70-89  .440  26.5            10th 

The 1966 Yankees are a bit of an embarrassment to sabermetricians. They were 
above league average in slugging, and just a hair worse than league average 
in ERA; they scored 611 runs, gave up 612; why didn't they finish at .500? 

They were also the first NY AL team to finish last since 1912, a string of 
53 seasons out of ther cellar. Cleveland had 54 straight, 1915--1968. The 
Red Sox haven't finished last since 1932; 59 seasons (and counting). These 
are the three longest strings in AL history. And these are the main contenders 
for last place in the AL East this year! 

[...]

Gerry Myerson
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce M Hasch)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Orioles get Craig Lefferts
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:53:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <37535@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes...
>In article <1992Sep1.053913.7362@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bk713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kimon Zachary) writes:
> 
>>In the shadows of the BIG trade, the O's obtained Craig Lefferts for a
>>minor leaguer (forgot who, sorry) and a PTBNL.
> 
>Erik Schullstrom, 23 year old RHP.
>1990 pitched 32 innings in A ball, 29 H, 13 BB, 17 ER, 29K
>1991, 86 IP in A, 13 in AA; 81H, 48 (!) BB, 82K, 33 ER.
> 
>don't have this year's stats handy.  Seems to be a decent prospect.

I don't have the exact stats for Schulstrom, but at AA Hagerstown his stats
were something like 110 IP, 100 H, 55 BB, 110 K.  I hate to lose guys who
strike out a batter an inning.  Even if they've got no clue where home plate
is...

He was our second round pick in the 1990 draft.  He is a legit prospect.

> 
>>Wonder if Lefferts will go to the pen.  He might be wearing thin as a 
>>starter.

I've heard that Oates will use him as a starter.  We'll see how long
his arm holds out...(fingers crossed)

Does anyone know Lefferts' contract situation--I sure hope that the O's
have done more than rented Lefferts for the rest of the race.  It would
be nice if we could put him in the pen next year (Since our current 
lefthander is everyone's favorite Human Batting Tee, Mike Flanagan).

Of course, I'd like to see the O's give a shot to the Wilder than Wild
Thang, Brad Pennington...(Last check, 34 IP, 11(!) H, 35 BB, 50 or so K's 
at AAA Rochester)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce 'Slower than Sam Horn' Hasch              hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu
Bill Ripken Anti-Fan Club                       O's all the way in '92!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kettler@mitme5.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Subject: What happened to the stathead- anti-stathead game?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:13:00 GMT

The subject says it all. A few weeks ago, there was a discussion about having 
a softball game to determine which group is better. A lineup was made for the 
statheads, but one wasn't made for the anti-statheads. Consequently, I offer to 
catch for the anti-statheads. At 5'7", I am low to the ground anyway and I 
don't mind taking the punishment from blocking the plate. After all, this 
happened to me this year in softball.

BTW, the softball game would be a great way for people to meet and then after 
it, the person who thought that HoJo would have at least a .792 OPS can do his 
thing. d::-)

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic" 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sgs@milton.u.washington.edu (Steven Smith)
Subject: Birthdays
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:47:02 GMT


A few days o' Baseball Birthdays

September 1
Rico Carty, 1939
Garry Maddox, 1949
Joe Astroth, 1922
Hub "Shucks" Pruett, 1900
Rob Wilfong, 1953
Dave Rucker, 1957
David West, 1964
Cloyd Boyer, 1927

September 2
Albert Goodwill Spalding, 1850 (HOF)
Rick Manning, 1954
Marvelous Marv Throneberry, 1933
Monte Pearson, 1909
Lamar Johnson, 1950
Luke Walker, 1943
Rex Hudler, 1960
Jeff Russell, 1961
Joe Heving, 1900

September 3
Eddie "The Brat" Stanky, 1916
Tom Brewer, 1931
Ed Konetchy, 1885
Sandy Consuegra, 1920
Alan Bannister, 1951
Steve Boros, 1936
Eric Plunk, 1963
Dave Clark, 1962
Rene Gonzales, 1961
Art Fromme, 1883


--Steve
-- 
 sgs@u.washington.edu             * 
 Steve Smith                      * "We want a pitcher, not a belly itcher." 
 University of Washington HR-20   *    			-- Bill Plummer
 Seattle, WA 98195                * 		
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS)
Subject: Re: DAVID CONE TO BLUE JAYS
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 04:00:15 GMT


I have a question to which the answer was something I never really quite
understood.

	What exactly does the "Trading Deadline" mean when a team like the
Jays makes deals after this date?
From: dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Tim Belcher's Removal
Keywords: Belcher, Rob, Dibble, Yikes!
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:10:22 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <31AUG199216400706@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce M Hasch) writes:
>I presume that one of these three things occurred:
>1) Belcher told Piniella he had nothing left
>2) Belcher was hurt in some way
>3) Piniella suffered some kind of brain spasm

Well, supposedly Belcher had a high pitch count.

However, anyone who saw the Reds throw away game one of their big 3 game
series with Atlanta a month ago would probably assume that it was
simply a brain spasm on Lou's part.

I think Piniella has frequent brain spasms when it comes to managing
pitchers.

--dave

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: heartlab@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Heartlab People)
Subject: Re: DAVID CONE TO BLUE JAYS
Organization: The John P. Robarts Research Institute, London, Ontario
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:22:39 GMT

>They'll send Sprague as soon as they get arrangements for a back-up
>catcher.

The Jays already have a back-up catcher up in the majors. They have of
course Pat Borders and Eddy Sprague, but they also have Randy Knorr. In
fact, he (Knorr) has been playing just as much as Sprague has in the
past few weeks. So, if the Jays do in fact ship Sprague of to the Mets
with Jeff Kent, their lack of players in the catching position is
already solved.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bk713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kimon Zachary)
Subject: JOSE CAN YOU SEE...THE ALAMO?
Reply-To: bk713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kimon Zachary)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 05:27:25 GMT


I was watching the Orioles vs. the A's (Mussina is pitching a shutout, BTW)
when I heard the news: Jose (how many car insurance points?) Canseco for 
Ruben Sierra and Bobby Witt and $$$$ (don't know how much).

Well, great deal for the Rangers, especially since they apparently thought
they couldn't sign Sierra.  Never know when Russell's elbow will blow again.
Witt?  Come on.

So what were the A's thinking??

1) Let's win now.  Witt's better than the other scrubs we've been sending
out there, and Russell can do something useful, maybe as trade bait.
Sierra's no slouch.  We'd rather try to sign him than McGwire (?).

2) Canseco's injury problems aren't going to go away and this season will
be typical.

3) Dennis Eck has a secret injury.

4) Sandy Alderson (sp?) is on drugs.

5) Canseco is on drugs.

So, which is it??


-- 
Kimon Zachary			"I stand by all the misstatements that
JHU School of Med.			I've made." --Dan Quayle
Baltimore, MD		
"Send lawyers, guns, and money; the sh*t has hit the fan."--Jack Clark
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco to Texas...
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:12:12 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Sep1.152532.3667@osf.org> ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) writes:
> The major concern I have with Canseco is that he is extermely injury prone.
> And he's a dusruptive influence in the clubhouse. He's also about 5 years older
> than Sierra, isn't he? If I were starting a team right now I'd take Sierra over 
> Canseco for these very reasons.

According to today's SJ Mercury News, Canseco is 28, Sierra is 26(Witt
is 27 and Russell is 30). Sierra is considered to be a disruptive influence
in Texas' clubhouse, so if you believe that hurts a team, both teams
unloaded one disrupter and acquired a new one. What will probably happen
is both teams will welcome the new guy and he'll start off with a fresh
slate, which could be what both need.

Sierra is a lifetime .280 hitter, but will probably have trouble hitting
nay better than that in the future in Oakland, and his homers will drop
as well(although his doubles might increase a touch as some of his 
"texas homers" will hit the wall in Oakland). Canseco will put up 35-40
homers a year in Texas, maybe 50+ if he's able to get healthy.

Jose said last night that he and his doctors feel that after a restful
offseason, with therapy, he'll be able to play relatively pain free.
I hope he's right, because I've always wondered how many homers he
could hit if he didn't play in Oakland.

Russell is just a rent a player for the A's. Sierra will cost more
than Jose to resign, so he may be a rent a player too(I hope they
keep him, they'll need his offense), so Witt has to be the key
in the trade. He won 17 in 90, Duncan has resurrected pitchers with
worse stuff, and I personally believe that House just wasn't the
right pitching coach for a guy like Witt.

I'm still a bit stunned, I think they could have won the West and 
probably got by Toronto/Baltimore/Milwaukee without the deal, but I
see their thinking that they needed more pitching. 

When they first realized last night that Jose might be traded I was
trying to guess(I had already predicted the A's would trade for
Bobby Witt with no clue Jose would be involved), and my best guesses
were: St. Louis for Felix Jose, Todd Worrell and a starter like 
Olivares, California for Abbott and Tim Salmon, or Texas for Witt 
and Sierra(russell never occurred to me).




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"A bank is a place where they lend you an umbrella in fair weather, and ask
for it back again when it begins to rain."
                                          Robert Frost
********************************************************************************






Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Baseball and Billions
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:07:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.162228.1411@cis.ohio-state.edu> miked@pterodactyl.cis.ohio-state.edu (Michael Davey) writes:
>	This whole thing is ridiculous. You are not reading my posts carefully
>and are answering questions with questions that are not related to the original
>questions.

Maybe if you'd just try to answer my questions, you'd see that they *are*
related to the original questions.  

You've made lots of claims, but seem unwilling to discuss any of those
claims.  From reading your posts, I've gotten the impression that you
believe that there is an obvious and objective definition of exactly what
"The Game" ought to be, though I can't get you to actually provide this
definition.  You seem to think that it's obvious that the DH is bad, that
domes and turf are bad, that some changes are bad but others aren't, though
I can't get you to give me a decision mechanism for determining whether a
change is bad or not.  I assume that you believe that anybody who disagrees
with your choices as to what is obviously bad must not be a baseball fan.  

So, I'll try one more time, with the questions.  

What are the tenets and traditions of "The Game" that are important, and
should be preserved?

Has there ever been a period of baseball history when these tenets and
traditions are respected to your satisfaction?  If not, how exactly did
these tenets and traditions come about?  

Since you think the commissioner ought to have more power than the owners,
exactly what is it that you think he ought to do?  How should he decide
what it is he ought to do?  What if the fans don't like the decisions he
makes?  How does giving the commissioner more power give any additional
power to the fans at all?

> The last time you participated in a discussion of this length
>on the net, you ended up invoking some pseudo-relgious crap to make your
>point that stats do not describe accurately and precisely all the
>different aspects of the game.

"Pseudo-religious crap"?  What *are* you talking about?

> Now, you keep arguing that because the state
>of the game and the owners are better than they were in the past, there is 
>no grounds to criticize them now.

No, I'm not arguing that at all.  I've made *no* statement in this
discussion about whether the state of the game was good or bad.  You've
claimed that the state of the game is bad, and it's because of the owners.
I'm trying to get you to be more specific about what about the state of the
game is bad, and *why* it's bad, and who decides it's bad.

> And if we are upset with something, we should
>just use our power as free and equal participants in an open market to get 
>what we want. Sorry, honey, (sorry about the mysogeny, but your ignorance 
>forces me to act out of character)

People who claim that they are being "forced" to act out of character
seldom are.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: chico@athena.mit.edu (Thomas A Weston)
Subject: Re: roy NL
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:08:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.020048.17416@leland.Stanford.EDU>, claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes
|> 
|> Dodger Stadium is a pitchers' park, but it is no AstroDome.  You are
|> misunderstanding the park factor; it is a factor of how many runs Dodgers and
|> their opponents score at home vs. how many runs Dodgers and their opponents
|> score in other places.

You're underestimating how miserable Dodger Stadium is for hitters.  When you
consider that a pitching staff full of alleged pitchers like Bobby Ojeda, Orel
Hershiser, Ramon (no arm) Martinez and Kevin Gross has a better ERA than Greg
Swindell, Tim Belcher, Jose Rijo, etc. you see that Sanders is getting a lot
 of help from his stadium while Karros is getting clobbered by his.

Also, the park factor I'm referring to is calculated as a team runs scored and
runs allowed per game.  This puts all stats in the team context.  It doesn't
actually address the park directly, but in some ways is more valid.  Take a look
at the Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract for more explanation.

|> 
|> Besides, you haven't addressed the question that Karros is at best an average
|> 1B for this season, while Sanders is among the elite center fielders
|> offensively.  Alou is not quite as good offensively, but he is better
|> defensively.  I would vote for both of those before I consider Karros.
|> 

How exactly do you figure Sanders among the league's 'elite center fielders
offensively?'  No fewer than 4 center fielders have been better this season.  I
calculated Offensive Winning Percentages for every decent NL center fielder and
Andy Van Slyke, Brett Butler, Ray Lankford and Otis Nixon all came out better. 
Plus they all have more at bats than Reggie.  The other Sanders, Deion, comes out
better, but he has around 20 fewer at bats.  Reggie Sanders appears to be maybe
the fourth or fifth best offensiver center fielder in the NL.  Being barely above
average rarely makes a player elite.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: 'Ol George goes for 3000, BUT ...
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 05:34:44 GMT

In article <spork.715151814@camelot> spork@camelot.bradley.edu (Richard Izzo) writes:

>Considering that Brett is still managing to reach the .270's this season, he's
>certainly more valuable than much of the team, considering the team batting
>average.

But it's a fairly empty .270 (actually .275), wiith only a .386 SLG and 
a .326(!) OBP.  He is a slightly below average DH, which is still somewhat
valuable, but not very much.  A good number of Royals are more valuable than
he is.  (Joyner (with the defensive value), Miller, Howard(!), Jefferies,
McReynolds, Appier, Montgomery, and perhaps even Pichardo)

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Mets trade Cone
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na,local
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 14:15:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.062003.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin) writes:
>can't count on them for more than 3 years.  (Yeah, like the ever-inconsistent
>Cone.)
>
>I think the Mets would modify this reg just a WEE bit if it was
>Clemens or Eckersley coming up for free agency....
            ^^^^^^^^^

Would *you* sign a 38-year old to a five year contract?  I wouldn't.
-- 
             ......................................................
             ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu | std disclaimers
             the university of chicago law skool, chicago, illinois
             it's log!  log!  log!  it's big, it's heavy, it's wood
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sieferme@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: MLB Standings and Scores for Thu, Sep 01st, 1992
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:37:25 GMT

In article <44687@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez) writes:
>
>		     Won   Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10   Streak   Home   Road
>Los Angeles Dodgers   53    78    .405  25.0      1-9    Lost 6  34-35  19-43
>
>Philadelphia Phillies 53    76    .411  20.5      2-8    Lost 1  31-36  22-40
>
>Seattle Mariners      55    77    .417  24.5     z6-4     Won 1  32-36  23-41
>

Ta-Da!  The Mighty M's are now better than TWO other teams!
Let's stop the season right now.


-- 
| Eric Sieferman            |    sieferme@u.washington.edu          |
| U. of W., M.C.I.S.        |    (206) 685-3104                     |

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: DAVID CONE TO BLUE JAYS
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 16:29:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.133928.28907@sni.ca> dave@silver.sni.ca (Dave Till) writes:
>
>The Jays are a staggeringly wealthy team.  They draw 4+ million a year,
>have a nation-wide TV contract, and rich owners (90% Labatt beer,
>10% Bank Of Commerce).  This is the first year that they have really
>flexed their financial muscles.

The Jays may have a nation-wide TV contract, but the Yankees have a
larger potential audience.  After all, the population of Canada isn't
*that* much larger than the population of NYC.

>Having said that, I still don't believe they will sign Cone.  He will
>want $20 million over 5 years, and the Jays won't want him for more
>than 3.

You think Cone will accept that little money?  In the usual tradition
of "I'm as good as they are", I expect Cone to demand $5 million/year.

>One word:  defense.  Gruber hasn't been hitting at all (he got his
>first RBI in August last night), but he is still playing reasonably
>good defense.  Kent wasn't a good 3B at all:  he seemed to be making
>an error a game out there.

Hm.  Okay.  Though he only had 11 errors in 64 games total, so I think
you exaggerate a little.  :-)

>White did well last year, and Cito is hoping that he can bounce back.

No, White did *adequately* last year.  Even then, his OBP wasn't very
good.  And this year?  How many bases do you have to steal to justify
a .283 OBP in the leadoff spot?  His defense is great, but his offense
seriously hurts the team in the leadoff spot.  Can't they hide him
somewhere like sixth or ninth in the order?

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Clemens may not win his 4th CY, but he still rules!	tedward@cs.cornell.edu
From: napier@cs.ucsd.edu (Jim Napier)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: What is slugging percentage?
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:21:45 GMT
Organization: CSE Dept., UC San Diego


Would someone fill in an ignorant casual fan as to exactly what the slugging
percentage is? Thanks.
-- 
Jim Napier
Systems Administration
Applied Mechanics & Engineering Sciences Dept.
UC San Diego
jnapier@ucsd.edu
Jim Napier
Systems Administration
Applied Mechanics & Engineering Sciences Dept.
UC San Diego