HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wood@siemens.com. (Jim Wood)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: long-term relationships...success stories, please...
Keywords: relationships long-term lengthy
Date: 18 Dec 92 14:53:24 GMT

gerkman@binky.csc.wsu.edu (Joseph M. Gerkman) writes:

>I kinda want to hear some  
>success stories of long-lasting relationships...hopefully ones that are  
>still going strong...

David and I celebrate our fifth anniversary on this coming Monday, 12/21/92.
This one's going strong, and the reason for it is that, fundamentally, we're
both willing to accept the other's strengths and weaknesses -- as they are.
Beyond this, we're both willing to work at the relationship.

>Part of this  
>all came about because of an argument I was having with a friend recently.   
>He basically said that gays can't and don't want to commit to one  
>person...and I loudly disagreed...

You should disagree.  His statement is a lot of hooey.  Our friends Joe & Ron
celebrated their 23rd anniversary in July.  Leo & Joe celebrated their 14th
in August.  Steve & Ron celebrated their 11th in April.  Get the picture?
How'd these people do it?  Commitment to one person, that's how.

>I'm also kinda curious about some obstacles that have or might come  
>up in a long-term relationships (i.e. neighbors, purchasing cars/a  
>house/etc, insurance/benefits, family, co-workers, etc.), and how you both  
>dealt with them.  

Two things: money and sex.

Everyone comes into a relationship with different perspectives, needs, and
requirements concerning money and finances.  Those have to be resolved or
they're will be endless arguments.  One has to be willing to compromise and
reach consensus on who pays for what, who shares what, etc.

The same thing concerns sex.  A lot of relationships die when the torrid
lights of passion flicker, and the crucial part is to work on maintaining
a healthy and varied sex life, to agree on what the bounds of the relationship
are, and to maintain honesty with respect to the issues.

--
Jim Wood [jwood@siemens.siemens.com] (609) 734-3643
"Rise up on the wings of eagles, and two step among the stars.
 You are not forgotten.  Your smile will echo forever."
   -- Ryerson Schwark, to our friend Rob Bernardo.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans)
Subject: Re: Aladdin
Organization: The House at Piglet Corner
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:35:29 GMT

In article <15DEC92.22191747@enh.nist.gov> aberson@enh.nist.gov writes:
>In a previous article, norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris) wrote:
>>Does anyone know which songs from Aladdin he wrote before he died?
>
>It would be a neat trick if it weren't all of them.
>
>Oh!  Now I see what you meant.  Maybe someone has the CD?

Strange you should mention...

Howard Ashman:  Arabian Nights
                A Friend Like Me
                Prince Ali

Tim Rice:  One Jump Ahead
           Prince Ali (reprise)
           A Whole New World <bleagh!>

Alan Mencken--composer


Piglet (does anyone in NYC know where I can get a Piglet stamp?!?)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.sex
Subject: Mother Nature (Re: A Mother Speaks)
Date: 15 Dec 92 12:12:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec15.121238.10395
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <13634@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.140918.26364@csc.ti.com>, thrift@ra.csc.ti.com (Phil Thrift) writes:
>> rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
># #         ...  At the Federal level,
># # studies on teen suicides have been fought by the usual culprits:
># # Helms, Dannemeyer, Dornna, etc., as well as all the so-called
># # "Christian" organizations under the auspices that this undertaking
># # undermines the "family".
># 
># The real fear the Christian Right has in these studies is that they
># would support the fact a significant percent (~10%) of people are gay.
># These types maintain that only ~2% of people are gay.  This is the
># myth they have to maintain. (Sort of like the myth that the earth is
># ~10,000yrs old is needed to justify their creationist beliefs).
># 
># Phil
>
>See the 12/3/92 issue of Nature.  Large scale surveys in France
>and Britain are reported there.  In France, the total number of
>men who have had homosexual sex ANYTIME during their lifetime is
>4.1%.  In Britain, it's 6.1%.  For women in France, it's 2.6%.
>For those in the last five years, of course, the numbers are
>MUCH smaller.

This is the same magazine that has cold fusion and ground planaria
brain transplants? Thank god we know you're quoting from the last-word
on-the-subject source.

-- 
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Re: Woman-to-woman nude body-to-body contact.
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:30:15 GMT


In article <168BEA6E8.TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu>, TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu writes:
|> I wanted to do this days ago, but network outages have kept me off the
|> .net for about three days. I want to apologize to Greg Parkinson for my
|> reaction to his question about what lesbians do in sex clubs.

Done both here and in e-mail.  Thanks.  It's appreciated.

|> For the record, I am
|> not alone in my initial reaction to the question, but other women had the
|> good sense to do what I should have done and keep their remarks to them-
|> selves.

Since all I've heard on this is your original reaction and
the email I've gotten from two women telling me of their
experiences in lesbian sex clubs, I'm interested in what
those remarks are, and what category they fall into - 
like "gay men are only interested in sex" or "men leering
at women" or "politics is more appropriate" or what?

Just as there's stereotypes about lesbian sexuality
that inform people's thought about lesbian sex spaces,
there's obviously stereotypes about gay male sexuality
(and male sexuality in general) that informed your
thinking and your response to my question.  That sort
of stuff (to me) is worthy of discussion.

|> I also regret that Greg's name was taken in vain in another thread. None
|> of this is fair to him, and again, I apologize. When I am better able to
|> articulate my feelings -- I obviously haven't done too well so far -- I
|> may attempt again. But probably not. (Greg, come back...)

Honey, it'd take worse than this to make me run.  If we can 
understand how this happened, maybe we'll have learned something - 
and that's one of the reasons I stick around here.


-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
From: kmeyer@aero.org (Kraig R. Meyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: A Taste of Culture
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:03:16
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<1992Dec16.195514.856@psych.toronto.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: solarium.aero.org
In-reply-to: paul@psych.toronto.edu's message of Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:55:14 GMT


rcrice@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (roger.w.crice) writes:
>>When I first heard about this, I thought to myself What
>>sort of food could I share with my coworkers that would
>>represent *my* culture?  All I could think of was canape's
>>and cocktails.  

paul@psych.toronto.edu (Paul Hastings) said:
> While that's certainly a start, the answer is:

> PASTA PASTA PASTA PASTA PASTA PASTA PASTA PASTA

> It's gotten to the point that I try to think of things OTHER THAN PASTA
> to serve if I have people over for dinner, 'cause it seems to me that
> gay men eat, and serve, more linguine, penne, rigatoni, spaghetti, you
> name it, than any other cultural group on this planet!  

I have to agree.  I was just at a GLB potluck Christmas party.  It was
supposed to be balanced: so many people signed up for salads, so many
people signed up for main dishes, etc.  The salads (including my own)
were mostly pasta-oriented and most of the main dishes were also.

At a different Christmas party (Tom, you still out there?) I had 
chocolate lasagna for dessert.  Yes, there are enough pasta dishes 
to serve pasta for every course.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The opinions expressed above are my own and do not necessarily          |
| represent those of The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA.           |
|									  |
| Kraig R. Meyer		   	                 kmeyer@aero.org  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52502 alt.politics.homosexuality:8007
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Castro Street (Re: Two threads: women posting and "cures" and its spinoffs)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:19:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.084002.16670@netcom.com> cjlee@netcom.com (Caroline Jean Lee) writes:
>Steve, I think you are misreading Tracey's post. Yes, her words
>contained a lot of anger, anger at the way she feels lesbians are
>marginalized on soc.motss as well as in other places. I'm a little
>pissed off that you chose to respond to her perception of soc.motss
>with a "fuck you."

I responded with a "fuck you" because that's how I read her comments.
And, I think _Tracey_ misread a good deal of what was said on the topic
before she chimed in, AND I think she's got a nerve dismissing what
other people DO like to talk about (raves, Harvey Fierstein, etc.)
under the rubric of including women.  Like I said, some of that stuff
might have little intrinsic interest to me, too.  But I read it and
listen to it because it's coming from people I have come to know and
respect as participants here.

Listen, this wasn't the first time this topic has been discussed here,
nor will it be the last.  It's a perennial discussion.  But I am going
to respond in a manner commensurate with the way I perceive the person
doing the posting makes her comments.  If you look at my history here,
I have been one of the most vocal individuals towards creating an
inclusive environment for women.  But that doesn't mean that if I think
anyone (including a woman) says something both dumb AND insulting,
that I won't dish it back.

>If the topic is why don't more lesbians post, and
>this is your response to one lesbian's explanation why, you've got
>your answer right there.

Oh, I thought that was only the reason why more clueless people don't post.
I'm not doing "lesbians" (as a class, such as it is) or anyone else for that
matter, any favors by treating them with kid gloves.

>> Mea culpa, mea culpa <beating breast>.  You're going to have to
>>come up with more cogent stuff than this.  You sound like you just walked
>>out of your women's studies class.
>Perhaps instead of trivializing Tracey's words as being spouted from a
>"women's studies class," you might consider that the material covered
>in women's studies is actually valuable, useful and cogent, instead of
>being the mere breast beating that you seem to think it is.

The breast beating was my own.  I am sorry if that sounded like a slap
against women's studies; I meant it to be a slap at that particular
refrain, which struck me as totally unoriginal and not particularly
relevant to the discussion at hand.  If someone is going to complain
about motss, I want comments to that point, and not warmed over generic
agitprop.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: larry@bradley.bradley.edu (L. D. Stratton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Hair Today Re: Indications of homosexuality...
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:43:13 GMT
Organization: Bradley University

In <Bz3q5s.8Cp@cs.vu.nl> fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!) writes:
>joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis) writes:
>>As to getting hair in one's mouth at awkward moments, modesty
>>prohibits me from speaking further.
>With all due warm feelings, on this forum, that seems like a first for you.
>									FJ!!

   And I don't think FJ is talking about getting hair in one's mouth. =)
From: Minotaur@cup.portal.com (A Frank Swilling)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: My *sigh* ad in the Washington Blade
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 18:25:00 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec14.221628.26449@wam.umd.edu>

Donald Agarrat gets the miseries:

>But, Father Amelia and Mama Jojo, *puts his head down in shame*
>I have no leather garments ...

>Donald - Leatherless

There, there, Donald.  Remember that old saying:

I cried that I had no leather,
until I met a man who had no basket.

Frank
Minotaur@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax)
Subject: Coming out at work - HELP!
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:33:12 GMT

Well, last night was the office Christmas party.  I've only been at this
job for about two months (the probationary period is three months), so I
haven't made a _big_ noise about being gay.  My politics are fairly well
known, and just about everybody (it's a small company) has seen my pink
triangle and rainbow flag, but I've never come out and said "I'm gay."  As
my lover pointed out, last night kind of clinched that.  Everybody came
with their spouse, except the other secretary who's husband is overseas,
who came alone.  While we didn't hold hands or kiss (neither did anyone
else), we were fairly obviously a couple.  My boss, a former mayor of
Austin, even mentioned how this small company represented the diversity of
the city (not quite - one Hispanic, no African-Americans).   It was kind
of refreshing.  I'm getting ready to go to work and I'll be the first to
admit I'm a bit nervous.  Any ideas, history or suggestions about being
out at work in a _very_ small (9 employees) company (which does have an
anti-discrimination policy)?  Thanks in advance for the support.

========================================================================
"For I can see that in the midst of death, Life persists; in the
midst of untruth, Truth persists; in the midst of darkness, Light
persists."

"An eye for an eye will blind the world."
                                      Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

"I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it."
                                                             ME!

lazarus@wixer.cactus.org
Michael Lax, 12514 Esplanade St., #B, Austin, TX  78727-4409
From: nef@calmasd.Prime.COM (Nancy Fox)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: A Taste of Culture
Keywords: Gay food
Date: 18 Dec 92 00:11:17 GMT
Organization: Computervision, San Diego, CA

In article <1992Dec16.190330.21999@tc.cornell.edu> shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:

>Too bad you're not a lesbian, or else you'd be able to
>bring in some sort of disgustingly texture-free grey
>casserole made of lentils, potatos, and rice in an
>earthenware container.


Sheesh Melinda, you forgot the tofu.  If it doesn't have tofu, than
it's been made by a lesbian imposter.  That's how you know.

I'm afraid you're going to have to take a refresher course before
we can give you back your credentials...

Nancy


Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Cross-Posting
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 05:04:28 GMT


A gentle reminder to the cohort of soc.motss:

Although in the past day or two things have started to die
down a bit, probably as people shift into holiday mode,
there continues to be a certain amount of cross-posting of
things that really don't need to be cross-posted.

Most newsreaders at most sites let you edit the header lines
up at the top, and of these probably the most important is
the one that says Newsgroups:

If an article truly belongs in soc.motss, in most cases it's
a good idea to edit out the names of other groups.  If the
article you're responding to doesn't really pertain to
soc.motss (according to your own best judgment), then when
responding it makes sense to edit soc.motss out of the list.

Care and concern of this sort could help (greatly, I think)
engender a high level of quality in this newsgroup.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Anthony Berno)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Cramer's game.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 04:21:30 GMT
Reply-To: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca


When I was fairly young, Farley Mowat said something which caused me great  
puzzlement at the time. It was only several years later that it made  
sense. He said:

"Never allow the truth to be confused by facts."

(or something to that effect.)

Being a very literally minded person, I thought "Well, what's the  
difference?" and concluded that the statement was meaningless.

Reading Cramer's postings reminded me of Mowat's words, which I now  
consider to be a truism.

Look, admit it. Cramer is a pretty good debater. If I knew nothing at all  
about homosexuality, I would consider him to be utterly trouncing his  
opponents here in soc.motss. His arguments are clean, fairly consistent,  
and backed up with hard data. The opposition he has faced here is pretty  
lame compared to the organization and force of his pet theories.

However, we all *know* that his overall view of homosexuality is wrong. We  
know it because we *live* the lives that he only theorizes about. We  
*know* that our sexuality is not a "disorder". We *know* that we don't go  
around molesting children. We understand our own motivations, emotions,  
and experiences, which he cannot even imagine, let alone fit into his  
tidy, logical libertarian philosophy. When his arguments, derived from his  
rather distant viewpoint, are tested against the common sense of hundreds  
of people in our community (at least some of which must be openminded  
enough to accept an idea fundamentally contrary to their current opinions)  
the result is that *nobody* agrees with him.

Now, doesn't this say something?

Doesn't it suggest that perhaps logically-based arguments alone are an  
inadequate means of uncovering truth? Doesn't it suggest that we should  
all stop playing his classically Libertarian game of coming to nonsensical  
conclusions through the systematic application of "reason"? 

The more experienced members of the soc.motss community don't need to  
prove that Cramer is wrong. We do not need to prove it to ourselves, and  
we cannot prove it to him. The effort is a complete and utter waste of  
energy.

As for those newer members of our community that might feel oppressed by  
his rantings, we can do much more for them by supporting them directly  
than we can by engaging in endless and futile debate against the 'phobes.

I know I've fallen victim to temptation myself, but I must nonetheless  
echo the calls that have come out against responding to people like  
Cramer:

SIT ON YOUR HANDS!!!!!


-Anthony
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
	<1g8139INNm2j@hp-col.col.hp.com> <1992Dec10.231055.26459@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:35:22 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Dec10.231055.26459@panix.com> mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:

   Instead of asking what the story is, because it doesn't seem
   advisable to him to engage in detailed discussions of sexual
   technicalities with people under the age of eight, Walter has
   assumed that the accusations are based on truth.  This is part and
   parcel of accepting that a school board composed of people who are
   (whatever else you know about them, you know this) anti-gay are
   better than people who are probably gay themselves.  

   It's very sick-making.

Let's give Walter some benefit of the doubt here.  He is definitely
missing a lot of information (which he has admitted), but he's managed
to keep things on a civil level and to attempt to engage in real
conversation.  Not an easy thing to do when everyone's lobbing
negative stuff at you.

Anyway, it's the Walters of the world who are the most important for
us to communicate with.  The complete haters will never have their
views changed.  But someone like Walter, given some exposure and a
year or two, can come to accept and understand sexuality as a natural
part of life.

Although, as I mentioned in a previous post, it sure can be
frustrating to have to go through this process with someone else every
time you turn around...

To Walter:  My apologies for referring to you as if you aren't here,
and for presuming that your views on this can/will change, given time.
You'll just have to take it from us:  We've been down this road with
many people, we've answered the questions and dealt with the situation
many times, and we know where it does and doesn't lead.

So keep asking questions, and try to stay away from the cynicism...
--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
From: cabelljn@ctrvx1.vanderbilt.edu (CABELLJN)
Subject: Re: NOTICE - Details of the March on Washington
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Vanderbilt University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:09:00 GMT

What do prisoner's rights have to do with Gay rights?  What do Transgener
rights have to do with Gay rights?  I think this can best be answered by
the statement "None of us are free until we are all free!"

--Ian
 __________________________
|____________/\____________|     NetAddr: cabelljn@ctrvx1.vanderbilt.edu
|___________/  \___________|     Name: Ian Cabell
|__________/    \__________|     
|_________/      \_________|     Favorite Ice Cream:  Choc Chip Cookie Dough
|________/________\________|

Seasons Greetings (no offense season...:-)
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Devil CD's
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 23:48:24 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec18.192455.18616@mcs.anl.gov>

Jim Wylde writes:
>Whaddya mean fringes?  How many of your gay friends grew up with Rock? 
>Most of mine just ditched it because *you have to be into dance music*
>to be gay.... (YEECH!!!!)

Well, that depends on how you define "dance music."  To me,
ZZ Top's _Party On The Patio_ and Molly Hatchet's _Stone In
Your Heart_ are "dance music" 'cause they're songs I like
to dance to.  ;-{)##]

[I would love to find a danceclub DJ with the balls to mix
from Molly Hatchet to Madonna to ZZ to Animotion to RTZ, or
the like.... Chances of finding such a person/place? 0%.]

 
() One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people
() will agree with you only if they already agree with you.
() You do not change people's minds.
()      -- Frank Zappa, 1979
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
Newsgroups: soc.motss