From: odin@cs.uq.oz.au (Daniel Hazel)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 6 Nov 92 04:54:17 GMT
Reply-To: odin@cs.uq.oz.au
Followup-To: alt.supermodels

In <keithd.720940375@cluster> keithd@stallion.oz.au (Keith Duddy) writes:

>In <lfc6m5INNcv4@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums) writes:

...
>>get some homework that she missed.  She sees my Elle calendar next to
>>my computer and asks why I have it.  
>>She goes on to tell me how that
>>type of thing causes rape.  She has several friends and she knows it.
...
>>toss off and then go rape women.  I mention to her that statistics of
>>crime against women show a marked drop in crime where pornography and
>>erotica are freely available  Of course she replies with the new
>>feminist rebuttal "Well, I don't believe statistics."
...
>refutation of a cause/effect relationship. Simply: correlation does not
>equal causation.
...
>I can understand that she is upset that her friend was
>raped, I can also understand that the Elle calendar offends her, but I
>don't see a direct connection either. Rather I see a vast network of
>indirect connections.

It's a common cry - "Pornography causes rape!"  (although Keith suggests that
causation cannot be proven and it's equally valid from an apparent
correlation to suggest "Rape causes people to buy pornography!" (pretty
tasteless advertising)) - and it's a cry that most often comes from women 
with no empirical evidence but with a strong intuitive belief. 
It's not difficult to see why. 
Pornography and rape generate similar emotions in many women. 
Feelings associated with violation and subjugation; with the dismissal of 
mind and personality - projecting the person as a whole onto the dimensions
concerned with _male_ sexuality; with being dominated or forced into a 
unwanted role.  
I can't say that pornography is wrong. I can't say that rape is wrong either.
It's easy to say "If she reacts with that kind of hostility to my
Elle calendar - well she's really fucked up!". I find it equally easy to say
"If she reacts with that kind of hostility to her friend getting raped - well
she's really fucked up!" - but aren't we all?

>>	She went on to say that she really disliked supermodels and what
>>they do since all guys expect the women in their lives to look like
>>the super models.  I don't feel this is the case with me or most guys
>>...

>When all (well at least many - and certainly Elle falls into this
>category) of the images of women presented in the media are of skinny women
>pointing their tits out at the presumed male audience 
>...
>then you have to ask what message
>men and women are supposed to take from it. My best guess is that it's
>closer to "You girls better get skinny and poke out your tits" to women,
>and "This is what women should look like and behave like" to men than
>"Everyone should accept people as more than a body, and a range of body
>shapes and sizes can be sexy". By consuming this media, and refusing to
>acknowledge that it sets up unrealistic expectations of women,
>_regardless_ of your stated attitude to the women in your life, you are
>contributing to the subtle, but powerful persecution of all the women
>who don't fit these images. How can you at the same time pin Elle on
>your wall, and claim that you are not contributing to the idealisation
>of skinny-pointing-tits-out-to-men look/behaviour?

Hey ho Keith. Think you could be setting up unrealistic expectations of _men_?
It's just as unfair and sexist to try to hammer men into a hole designed (in
large) by women as it is to hammer women. Male and female hormones drive people 
to different ways of thinking.
Saying "You girls better get skinny and poke out your tits" to women is only
as offensive as saying "You guys better get sensitive and start giving a
fuck" to men. The war is raging but there is no side of good no side of evil.

More pleasure all round would be derived from not becoming enraged by the other
sex's hormone induced traits but from being amused or delighted. Long live the
difference. Women's hostility towards male's being stereotypically male just
makes me want to growl "I hate the way you're so stupidly empathetic to 
everything in the whole world and look I'm not putting up with anymore of 
that fucking PMT".
Most guys just let that "crap" slide off their duck's back. Maybe it's a
female hormone induced trait to be unfair. 
Put up with the way men are or leave them. 
It's pretty conceited to try to change them.

Dan.
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels