Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity
Subject: John Steven' religion - A challenge (was Re: Observations)
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:57:40 GMT
 <1992Sep2.205322.9187@coopsol.com> <1992Sep10.034942.12697@advtech.uswest.com> <dbznpq.gordons@netcom.com>
Distribution: usa
Organization: SPSS Inc.

gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga) writes:

><1992Sep10.034942.12697@advtech.uswest.com> stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) :
>>My religion requires me to act to end such an injustice if at all possible.
>
>It does??  Can you tell me exactly *where* in your bible (the heart of
>your religious teachings) your god/Jesus commands you to get involved in
>issues of abortion and seek to make them illegal?  Indeed, if your god
>thought it was such a heinous crime he'd do something about it.  Wouldn't
>he?  Wouldn't you, if you had the power?

Of course, John probably doesn't realize what the Old Testament says about
abortion....

John...how do you respond to the following?


=================
Here are the abbreviations used for Biblical citations:

   NIV  - New International Version, (International Bible Society), Zondervan
   KJV  - King James Version, Oxford Press
   NRSV - New Revised Standard Version, Oxford University Press
   NASB - New American Standard Bible, (Ryrie Study Bible), Moody Press

=================
Here's some more information on Bible Citations...

Text Notes are commentary on alternate translations, differing authorities
or unclear verses.  They represent scholarly opinion of alternate readings.

Study Notes are the opinion of the author as to the meaning, message,
symbolism and application of the verses.  They are certainly colored by
the authors own biases.

====
Numbers 5 - punishment for an unfaithful wife

    "(27)And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come
     to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done tresspass against her
     husband, the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and
     become bitter, and her belly shall swell and her thigh shall rot: and
     the woman shall be a curse among her people.  (28)And if the woman
     be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall
     conceive seed." [KJV]

   "(27)If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband,
    then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it 
    will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell
    and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her
    people.  (28)If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is
    free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to
    have children." [NIV]

    NIV Text Notes: (27)OR...suffering; she will have barrenness and a 
                    miscarrying womb

    NIV Study Notes: 5:21 The figurative language here (and in vv. 22,27) 
                     speaks of the loss of the capacity for childbearing 
                     (AND, IF PREGNANT, THE MISCARRIAGE OF THE CHILD).  This 
                     is demonstrated by the determination of the fate of a 
                     woman wrongly charged (v 28).  For a woman in the Near 
                     East to be denied the ability to bear children was a 
                     personal loss of inestimable proportions.  Since it was 
                     in the bearing of children that the woman's worth was 
                     realized in the ancient world, this was a grievous 
                     punishment indeed.  [Emphesis mine]

    "(27)When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled
     herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings
     the curse shall enter into her and shall cause bitter pain, and HER
     WOMB SHALL DISCHARGE, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become
     an excretion among her people.  (28)But if the woman has not defiled
     herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive
     children." [NRSV] [Emphesis mine]

     NRSV Study Notes: 5:23-28 The oath is followed by the drinking of the 
                       'water that brings the curse (v18).  It was believed 
                       that if a person were guilty this potion would have 
                       effects which would signify the Lord's verdict of
                       judgement (Ex32:20,35).

    "(27)When he has made her drink the water, then it shall come about, if
     she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, that
     the water which brings a curse shall go into her and cause bitterness,
     and her abdomen will swell and her thigh will waste away, and the
     woman will become a curse among her people.  (28)But if the woman
     has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free and
     conceive children." [NASB]

     NASB Study Notes: 5:11-31  These verses describe the "law of jealousy," 
                       whereby a woman suspected of marital unfaithfulness 
                       had to be brought to the priest for trial before the 
                       Lord (v16), who alone could reveal the truth of the 
                       matter.  The ritual of verse 23 symbolically 
                       transferred the written words of the curse to the 
                       water.  Verse 27 MAY INDICATE A MISCARRIAGE ('waste 
                       away' literal means 'fall'; see Job 3:16, where
                       a similar Hebrew word refers to untimely birth).  The 
                       practice here prescribed, apparently used only in the 
                       wilderness, prevented jealousy and suspicion from 
                       corrupting family and community life.  God must have 
                       miraculously controlled the results whenever this test
                       was used.  [Emphesis mine]

   So, we have various translations that use generally the same language.
   It appears that ALL of the translations agree generally, and that the 
   three modern translations all agree as to the meaning of the text.  The 
   NRSV actually puts the direct meaning into the main text, the NIV puts 
   it as a Text Note (as an alternate translation), and the NASB notes this 
   in the Study Notes.

   Although some may claim that the NRSV is a 'liberal' translation, the
   NIV is most certainly not, nor is the NASB, especially since the notes 
   are from Dr. Charles Caldwell Ryrie, and is published by Moody Press.  
   For those who don't know, Moody Bible Institute is VERY conservative, 
   some would say extremely so.

   It seems clear that at least in this situation, God not only permits, 
   but directly causes a miscarriage.  These verses describe an induced 
   miscarriage.  There is not escaping this.

   Note well that in addition to a miscarriage, the woman will no longer
   be able to conceive...

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams   "Space-age cybernomad"     Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity