HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnr@cat13.cs.wisc.edu (John Richards)
Subject: Sequential movement in wargames
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 01:25:19 GMT

Most of the posts recently have been FRP related, but I hope no one minds a
wargaming thread.
 
What do players think of an alternating move-attack execution system in a
wargame? (Helltank / Helltank Destroyer from Metagaming comes to mind)  I'm
talking about one where each player executes a move and attack with a single
piece, and then his opponent does the same with one of his, until one side has
finished, at which point his opponent finshes executing with his remaining
units.  The system usually allows opportunity fire, or fire at the "active" unit
by previously unfired units during the "active" unit's movement.
 
Not many wargames use this concept, and some disadvantages are evident, such as
it allows formations to pass through each other - adjacent pieces must be moved
separately, allowing enemy units to pass between.  It also places the player
with fewer pieces at a disadvantage, since his opponent can "stall" by moving
less important pieces first, waiting for the other player to commit himself.  It
works better for tactical situations where formations are less important, and
where unit numbers are approximately equal.  It can be exciting and fast moving,
forcing the players to bravely put offensive units forward, allowing the
defender the first shot, and then trying to eliminate the firing units.  It's
easier than separate move and fire rounds, since it doesn't let you forget what
target you had in mind when you moved the piece.  It also relieves the boredom
of waiting for your opponent to move, since your next move is usually just
moments away.
 
Any comments?
 
---------------------------
disclaimer - the use of "his" as opposed to "his/her" in this post I blame on
English, which lacks a gender-neutral pronoun appropriate for humans, and my own
laziness.
From: fj05+@andrew.cmu.edu (Faisal Nameer Jawdat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 5 Oct 92 13:50:30 GMT
	<1ap25sINN7i0@oak5.doc.ic.ac.uk>
Organization: Sophomore, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

np2@doc.ic.ac.uk (Nathaniel Pryce) writes:
>   Was Star Wars the first game where the GM gives a task a difficulty number
> and the player rolls their skill dice against it? 

I don't think so.  I think there were many earlier example.  Even
games like Top Secret / SI from TSR use that system, and I'm pretty
sure SI came before Star Wars rpg.  But even if it didn't there are
numerous other ones...
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: blum@news.ils.nwu.edu (Daniel Blum)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 18:25:39 GMT

>blum@news.ils.nwu.edu (Daniel Blum) writes:
>>I believe that Bunnies & Burrows (FGU, designed by B. Dennis Sustare)
>>was the first RPG to use skill improvements rather than arbitrary
>>"level" increases as benefits for experience.  
>
>Not quite correct.  B&B didn't use skill improvements, but did expand
>on the level system: it allowed a character to raise a level in each of
>his eight attributes separately.  There were no skills as such, just
>attributes - though you could say there were eight skill groupings, if
>you wanted.  But you could be a level 0 Strength bunny with a level 3
>Dexterity, level 6 Speed, level 2 Smell, etc.
>
>-- 
>  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu

OK - I've never seen a copy.  However, I do remember hearing that
Perrin borrowed the system (with improvements, of course) for Runequest.

--
_____________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum           Institute for the Learning Sciences   Room 327
blum@ils.nwu.edu   1890 Maple Ave., Evanston, IL 60201   708-467-2306

"By the power vested in me by my own over-inflated ego, I now 
 declare this bridge officially open."
_____________________________________________________________________

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution:  world
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 20:04:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.192353.11513@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis S. Casey) writes:
> I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
> would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
> the following stuff:
> 
> D & D :	       First RPG system
> Champions:     first point-creation system, logarithmic attributes

Also: intrduced the concept of "generic" powers, rather than a
    specific power for each type of attack (fire, cold, laser, etc).
    This was also the first "generic" system, although they did not
    market it as such, until after GURPS did it.

> MS & PE:       First use of any attribute + any skill for doing things
> Shadowrun:     First "count-each-die separately" system
> Runequest:     First %-ile system (not full percentile, but...)

More firsts for RQ (to the best of my knowledge):
    first "attack skill vs defense skill" combat system (until then,
        all games I remember used D&D style hit points, except
        Traveller, which was wierd)
    first "armor subtracts from damage" system
    first "classless experience system" (although some people
        claim B&B did this first)

Traveller: first skill based (i.e. non-classed) system?

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: blum@news.ils.nwu.edu (Daniel Blum)
Subject: Re: firsts in RPGs
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:08:35 GMT

>Champs was not the first point creation system; Steve Jackson's company
>Metagaming produced "In The Labyrinth" a couple of years before Champs.
>I.T.L. was based on the microgames "Melee" and "Wizard."  You had 32 points
>to spread between Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence.

Steve Jackson designed ITL, but he did NOT own the company (or run it).
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum           Institute for the Learning Sciences   Room 327
blum@ils.nwu.edu   1890 Maple Ave., Evanston, IL 60201   708-467-2306

"By the power vested in me by my own over-inflated ego, I now 
 declare this bridge officially open."
_____________________________________________________________________

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: klein@frith.egr.msu.edu (Jeffrey Klein)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: Michigan State University College of Stunt Piloting
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 12:40:42 GMT

In article <1ap25sINN7i0@oak5.doc.ic.ac.uk> np2@doc.ic.ac.uk (Nathaniel Pryce) writes:
>
>In article <1992Oct2.192353.11513@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis S. Casey) writes:
>|> I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
>|> would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
>|> the following stuff:
>
>|> Star Wars:     First use of character "templates"
>
>  Was Star Wars the first game where the GM gives a task a difficulty number
>and the player rolls their skill dice against it? 

Ghostbusters came out years previously.

Also, it was the first game with the amzing innovation of the "Ghost Die".

-- 
Jeff Klein             | "Happily, Ral doffs his outer clothing for a
Browsing Boy of the LNH|  refreshing dip in one of the dangerous 
klein@frith.egr.msu.edu|  chemical vats." - Ty Templeton
From: np2@doc.ic.ac.uk (Nathaniel Pryce)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 5 Oct 1992 10:33:48 +0100
Organization: Department of Computing, Imperial College, University of London, UK.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak5.doc.ic.ac.uk


In article <1992Oct2.192353.11513@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis S. Casey) writes:
|> I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
|> would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
|> the following stuff:

|> Star Wars:     First use of character "templates"

  Was Star Wars the first game where the GM gives a task a difficulty number
and the player rolls their skill dice against it? 

  I think this was a great leap forward in realism and ease of play (especially
for the GM). Much more intuitive than rolling a dice against the skill or 
attribute score.

|> Travis
|> picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu
|> "He-who-has-no-.sig"

-- 
  ///                     Nat Pryce (np2@doc.ic.ac.uk)                  
 ( oo  It is essential to dig the most for if you do not dig you lose your
 |\_|  superiority over the square and so are less likely to be cool - Kerouac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 13:16:55 GMT

lavonius@plootu.Helsinki.FI (Ville Lavonius) writes:
picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis S. Casey) writes:
>
>   I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
>   would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
>   the following stuff:

First of all, buy Heroic Worlds, by Lawrence Schick.

>   D & D :        First RPG system
>   Champions:     first point-creation system, logarithmic attributes

I'd say TFT was the first point-creation system, though it did not have
logarithmic attributes.

You could also add:

T&T:			First Solo Adventures
B&B:			First Martial Arts rules
Basic Roleplaying:	First Generic System

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
From: larrow@novell.com (Les Arrow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Graphics and Games
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:45:09 GMT
Organization: Novell Inc., San Jose, Califonia

Hi All,

I've always been real interested in creating computer games, mostly of the
role playing type. My stumbling block has always been graphics. 1) I can
not draw worth a lick. 2) Even if I could, I have almost no idea of how
to incorporate them (code wise) into a game.

I look at all the neat engines game companies are coming out with and I want
to get involved. Any suggestions for reading material?

--Les
From: mavra@cpac.washington.edu (Peter D. Adkison)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design,rec.games.advocacy
Subject: Multiple game systems discussion (Envoy)
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:52:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: bailey.MAVRA.92Oct6095223
Organization: Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

There was recently a thread going on here regarding multiple game
systems, which prompted me to post some of company's ideas regarding
Envoy, a system-independent public domain development platform for
roleplaying games.

We have a mailing list called experts-l@wizards.com which has been set
aside for discussions along these lines.   I have just posted to that
list our current plan on how we'd like to implement this concept.  If
you would like to see this plan and participate in a discussion of it
in more detail, write to me at:

	experts-l-request@wizards.com

and I'll sign you up on the mailing list and send you any mail you've
missed, including the post that I just sent out today to start the
discussion rolling.

This could be a very important project for our company, and possibly
for the industry as a whole.  We would like as much feedback as
possible since we truely want to do an excellent job on this.

Thank you,

				--Mavra!
				  Peter D. Adkison
				  Janitor, Wizards of the Coast
				  mavra@wizards.com

The above internet address should be used for e-mail if it is
different from the e-mail address in the header.
From: bill@bill.ab.umd.edu (Bill Bame)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:08:27 GMT
Reply-To: bill@office.ab.umd.edu
Organization: M.I.E.M.S.S.

>>
>>Ars Magica:      first "spontaneous" magic system (not just fixed spells)
>
>Nope.  Melanda is the first spontaneous magic system that I'm aware of
>(eight years before AM!) - there may have even been earlier ones.
>
>Melanda also had an excellent character creation system I've never seen
>anywhere else.  You chose your starting skills, and each skill affected
>starting attributes, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively.  For
>example, choosing blacksmithing raised your Strength: swinging that
>hammer all those times just naturally made you stronger.  Choosing
>Scholarly Lore Skill lowered your Strength (too much time required
>indoors), but raised your Learned stat.  Putting lots of points into a
>Sword skill raised your Agility, while craft skills raised your Manual
>Dexterity, and so on.  A nice idea!  
>
>[Note:  I haven't read the rules in a long time, so the names of the
>attributes might not be exactly correct, but you get the idea.]
>
>-- 
>  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu

You know, I really liked that game system!  Just for kicks I dug out
the rule book and skimmed it.  It had a lot of firsts and almost-firsts.
You have to wonder what would have happened if the designers  had
had the money to publish/market it correctly.

almost-first: "critical"-based hit location chart (hit to head does
  more/different damage than hit to chest).  Aimed blows were allowed
  by the combat system.
first? almost-first?: number-less (for the players anyway) attributes.
  Instead of strength=12 or strength=8, you were told strength=good or
  strength=poor.
almost-first: built-in (optional) game world - although EPT was way
  ahead of its time on this.
first? almost-first?: skill vs. skill fighting system (but it could have been
  improved).

I agree with Steffan about the character creation system - far better
than anything else available at the time (and better than most now)!  For a
while there was a yearly invitational Melanda tournament (with mandatory
costumes and tons of atmosphere - kind of like the "murder mystery" weekends
that were popular for a while).  I don't know whether they still have them,
but they were great fun!  I heard (during one of these tournaments) that the
designers had attempted a more "professional" version (Melanda version 2),
but that the project had failed due to lack of funds :(

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William P. Bame                    | sneakernet: William P. Bame
internet: bill@bill.ab.umd.edu     |             M.I.E.M.S.S.
          bbame@achi1.ab.umd.edu   |             22 South Greene Street
AT&T    : [Work] (410) 328-3062    |             Baltimore, MD 21201
CIS     : 71620,425                |             Room: T1R55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: rgt@kepler.unh.edu (Richard G Tomasso)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:31:54 GMT

In article <LAVONIUS.92Oct3115819@plootu.Helsinki.FI> lavonius@plootu.Helsinki.FI (Ville Lavonius) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.192353.11513@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis S. Casey) writes:
>   James Bond:    First use of action table.

Didn't Marvel SH do it first? I seem to remember MSH being out before JB.
From: allen@baja.viewlogic.com (Dave Allen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: firsts in RPGs
Date: 5 Oct 92 11:57:22 GMT
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc., Marlboro, MA
Originator: allen@baja

Travis S. Casey (picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu) wrote:

> I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
> would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
> the following stuff:
> D & D :        First RPG system
> Champions:     first point-creation system, logarithmic attributes
> MS & PE:       First use of any attribute + any skill for doing things
> Shadowrun:     First "count-each-die separately" system
> Runequest:     First %-ile system (not full percentile, but...)
> CORPS:         Attempts to reduce die rolling, squared attributes.
> Amber:         Diceless play, character auction.
> Star Wars:     First use of character "templates"
> James Bond:    First use of action table.

Champs was not the first point creation system; Steve Jackson's company
Metagaming produced "In The Labyrinth" a couple of years before Champs.
I.T.L. was based on the microgames "Melee" and "Wizard."  You had 32 points
to spread between Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence.

I'm sure that Chivalry and Sorcery, Bunnies and Burrows, and Tunnels
and Trolls had some firsts.  Any other old-timers want to suggest some?

When you have a longer list, please post again!

- DaveA
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 01:37:36 GMT

minnotte@stat.rice.edu (Michael Minnotte) writes:
>
>Ars Magica:      first "spontaneous" magic system (not just fixed spells)

Nope.  Melanda is the first spontaneous magic system that I'm aware of
(eight years before AM!) - there may have even been earlier ones.

Melanda also had an excellent character creation system I've never seen
anywhere else.  You chose your starting skills, and each skill affected
starting attributes, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively.  For
example, choosing blacksmithing raised your Strength: swinging that
hammer all those times just naturally made you stronger.  Choosing
Scholarly Lore Skill lowered your Strength (too much time required
indoors), but raised your Learned stat.  Putting lots of points into a
Sword skill raised your Agility, while craft skills raised your Manual
Dexterity, and so on.  A nice idea!  

[Note:  I haven't read the rules in a long time, so the names of the
attributes might not be exactly correct, but you get the idea.]

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 13:32:09 GMT

lavonius@plootu.Helsinki.FI (Ville Lavonius) writes:
picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis S. Casey) writes:
>
>   I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
>   would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
>   the following stuff:
>
>   Shadowrun:     First "count-each-die separately" system

Well . . . in an RPG, maybe, but it had been done many years before in
board games.  Gamma Two (now Columbia Games) first made games with this
concept in the early '70s: Quebec 1759, War of 1812, Napoleon, etc.

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Organization: Junior, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Date: Sat,  3 Oct 1992 12:47:48 -0400 
From: "Peter F. Delaney" <pd1x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems

lavonius@cc.helsinki.fi (Ville Lavonius) claims:

> Torg 		First game to have something supplement the die (a deck of
>		cards).


	No, this is incorrect.  White Wolf (then under a different name)
introduced Whimsey Cards as a separate product to go with Ars Magica
prior to TORG.

Pe+eR
.
Pe+eR Delaney, CMU, Pittburgh, PA ... Compuserve: 73750,3667
Internet: blackclove+@cmu.edu ...  Local: pd1x
Me:  "I like quantum physics.  It has a good beat, and you can dance to it."
Professor:  "...but do you understand the lyrics?"
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: Sequential movement in wargames
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 23:07:37 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.012519.11682@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, johnr@cat13.cs.wisc.edu (John Richards) writes:
|> Most of the posts recently have been FRP related, but I hope no one minds a
|> wargaming thread.
|>  
|> What do players think of an alternating move-attack execution system in a
|> wargame? (Helltank / Helltank Destroyer from Metagaming comes to mind)  I'm
|> talking about one where each player executes a move and attack with a single
|> piece, and then his opponent does the same with one of his, until one side has
|> finished, at which point his opponent finshes executing with his remaining
|> units.  The system usually allows opportunity fire, or fire at the "active" unit
|> by previously unfired units during the "active" unit's movement.
|>  
|> Not many wargames use this concept, and some disadvantages are evident, such as
|> it allows formations to pass through each other - adjacent pieces must be moved
|> separately, allowing enemy units to pass between.  It also places the player
|> with fewer pieces at a disadvantage, since his opponent can "stall" by moving
|> less important pieces first, waiting for the other player to commit himself.  It
|> works better for tactical situations where formations are less important, and
|> where unit numbers are approximately equal.  It can be exciting and fast moving,
|> forcing the players to bravely put offensive units forward, allowing the
|> defender the first shot, and then trying to eliminate the firing units.  It's
|> easier than separate move and fire rounds, since it doesn't let you forget what
|> target you had in mind when you moved the piece.  It also relieves the boredom
|> of waiting for your opponent to move, since your next move is usually just
|> moments away.
|>  
|> Any comments?

I think this system could work with a few modifications...maybe.

What about allowances for different movement rates?  As you say, it is
an advantage in most cases to move last, after seeing what moves your
opponent has made.  I figure that a rule forcing players to move their
slowest units before their quickest units would seem to make sense.
From: lavonius@plootu.Helsinki.FI (Ville Lavonius)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 4 Oct 92 08:52:08 GMT
Organization: Cthulhoid Entities for a Better Tomorrow

In article <senQuou00VpdE3HkNB@andrew.cmu.edu> pd1x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Peter F. Delaney) writes:

   > Torg 	First game to have something supplement the die (a deck of
   >		cards).

	   No, this is incorrect.  White Wolf (then under a different name)
   introduced Whimsey Cards as a separate product to go with Ars Magica
   prior to TORG.

Hmm, I've only cursorily glanced at the WCs, but I recall that they were non-
gamespecific (ie. not just for AM), and consisted just of plain text instead
of game effects. And, yes, I had forgotten about them...

   Pe+eR
   .
   Pe+eR Delaney, CMU, Pittburgh, PA ... Compuserve: 73750,3667
--
Ville Lavonius	        University of Helsinki, Dept. of Computer Science
lavonius@cc.helsinki.fi : "Some of my best friends are nukes" - R. Reagan
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: minnotte@stat.rice.edu (Michael Minnotte)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: Dept. of Statistics, Rice University
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:42:11 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.192353.11513@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis S. Casey) writes:
> I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
> would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
> the following stuff:
> 
> D & D :	       First RPG system
> Champions:     first point-creation system, logarithmic attributes
> MS & PE:       First use of any attribute + any skill for doing things
> Shadowrun:     First "count-each-die separately" system
> Runequest:     First %-ile system (not full percentile, but...)

Two more (I believe):

Ars Magica:      first "spontaneous" magic system (not just fixed spells)
Lace and Steel:  first use of competitive card game, rather than dice,
           for combat

I may be wrong about either or both of these, but they were the
first I was aware of.

Mike Minnotte