From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Reply to Gregg Skinner -- Christians and the Law
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:06:17 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <graham.714392382@galois> graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews) writes:
>From: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
>Subject: Re: Reply to Gregg Skinner -- Christians and the Law
>Date: 21 Aug 92 10:19:42 GMT

>graham:
>>By chosing like this and claiming some force behind your morality (eh: Jim>is a moral absolutist), are you not guilty of intellectual dishonesty?

>jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>    No, I don't think I'm guilty of "intellectual dishonesty".  Yes, I'm
>>    a moral absolutist, but that doesn't mean that I think *my* morals
>>    are the absolute standard; the Bible is the absolute standard, or
>>    actually, the teachings of God contained in the Bible.
>>
>>    My *interpretation* of that moral standard (which I happen to believe
>>    is correct else I'd change it) is a close *parallel* to the absolute
>                                         ________________ 
>>    moral standard contained in the Bible.
> 
>I deleted the rest of the post because my point is perfectly illustrated 
>by this quote of yours Jim. How do you know that your interpretation 
>of the bible is "close" to God's intent? What yardstick do you use to 
>measure closeness? I asked this same question of a Muslim reader and 
>the Quran recently and did not get much mileage so perhaps you Jim 
>may be able to answer this question satisfactorily. 
> 
>jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>    Does this mean I have "moral relativism"?  Certainly not.  For moral
>>    relativism recognizes no standard at all apart from that determined
>>    by each individual.  The adherent of moral relativism is adrift in
>>    a sea of moral possibilities.

>My contention Jim is that you are in fact a moral relativist. That 
>when you chose your particular interpretation of the bible you become 
>a moral relativist so to speak. Your individual standard is your 
>interpretation of the bible (you judge things *relative* to your
>*interpretation* of the bible). In fact I will go further and say that
>there is no way that a "follower of the bible" can avoid being a moral 
>relativist. All followers must chose what they think the bible means 
>and at this point they become a moral relativist. 
> 
>jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>    The moral standard taught in the Bible is like a solid pier that
>>    one can tie one's "boat" (life) to.  With a "short rope"(careful
>>    interpretation of the standard) tied to the "pier" (moral standard),
>>    one will not drift (in a moral sense) very far from the standard.

>Given that you have some error in your interpretation of the bible
>(something you admit to) and that you do not have access to the actual 
>meaning of the bible (you only have your interpretation of it), there is 
>no way you can discern how far you have drifted from the standard.

>jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>    Having an absolute moral standard, even if imperfectly interpreted,
>>    is better than having no absolute standard at all, and being adrift in
>>    a sea of humanistic moral choices.

>But what is an imperfect interpretation of a moral standard? An
>interpretation is quite simply a "humanistic moral choice" (to use your 
>words).

>graham
>--
>Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
>Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
>graham@maths.su.oz.au

Graham, your points about interpretation are largely correct, but you 
confuse moral relativism with moral skepticism. Relativism says different 
and incompatible moral beliefs can both be correct for different people; 
moral skepticism insists that there are irremediable epistemological 
problems ascertaining moral truths, and so questions whether there are any 
moral "facts" at all. 

The fact that there is no escape from the responsibility of individual 
judgement in matters of morality is no argument for relativism.
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