From: cwm54@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: Pessimism
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:04:52 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.162454.17297@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu> johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Arthur Johnson) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.020918.20279@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp
>(Michael Friedman) writes:
>> In article <1992Oct1.010832.15538@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu>
>johnson@offroad.chem.wisc.edu (Arthur Johnson) writes:
>> >In article <1992Sep29.232824.15935@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp
>> >(Michael Friedman) writes:


	    [Much stuff deleted]

>
>     Larger public corporations are often hungrier. But, the vast majority
>of people work for small businesses. That's where the brutal effects of
>racism are so often clearly seen. When one looks at how many of these
>businesses hire, there is no question that this economy is still a LONG
>way from being laissez-faire.
>
>> >There was this interesting 60 Minutes piece a couple of years back
>about
>> >NYC temporary agencies, all of which had set up this elaborate code
>system
>> >with many major NYC employers that would screen out black office
>workers,
>> >even if they were more qualified than competing white office workers.
>>
>> Office workers?  I thought it was receptionists and other
>> high-visibility people.  As I remember it, the codes weren't used for
>> the regular office workers.
>
>     As I remember it, it was both. As I recall, the reason the
>investigators tried to control for physical attractiveness was so that
>each pair could apply for both types of positions. The point is that
>anyone who maintains that racism is no more than a residual problem in the
>economy is only kidding themselves. And let's think about the effects of
>the above system on black individuals for a moment (you seem to be really
>big on the individual). Lots of people keep saying that racism is not a
>serious impediment to advancement anymore. Many, many black people, all of
>American history notwithstanding, start out taking that at face value,
>i.e. that the slate has been more or less wiped clean. So they go to
>school, either paying for it out of savings or borrowing money to pay for
>it. And these people work very hard to be highly skilled, and they can
>prove it, by any objective measure that anyone can devise. But when they
>try to find work, they consistently run into the above type of shit, over
>and over and over. Now, of course, every business does not operate this
>way wrt hiring. But finding a fair-minded employer is hit or miss, and
>it's still usually much more miss than hit for black folk. Sooner or
>later, "be of good cheer, all will work out in the end" wears pretty thin.
>In the face of this, it is a _constant_ struggle for black Americans to
>try to avoid becoming so jaded and cynical about life that all initiative
>is destroyed. I don't know what way I can use that will help you to see
>this. Maybe you should try to _really_ get to know some of your black
>co-workers at Oracle. By this I mean make them a real part of your social
>circle. This might help you see things from a different perspective.
>
>     [...stuff deleted...]
>
>Arthur Johnson
>johnson@offroad.chem.wisc.edu



    Exellent arguements!! You have the patience of Job with MF(pun intended)

    but don't waste your breath. Americans have difficulty separating

    theory from reality let alone cause and effect. I've come to the

    conclusion that whites like this refuse to believe racism is STILL

    rampant and there is nothing you can say that will change them. I

    suggest we spend our time on more noble participants. Buy if you insist,

    good luck.

      There is one thing that I disagree with you on. You seem to suggest
    that in a "pure" laissez-faire situation an employer would be at a
    major disadvantage if he were racially discriminatory in his hiring
    and promotion practices. It has been my experience that for 99 percent
    of the time there are many people either inside or outside a business
    who are "equally" qualified. That is, there are a number of people
    of a group who could be arbitrarily picked without the result being
    an increase or decrease in production. So that if there were two
    blacks and eight whites within this group, the employer could hire
    only whites with economic impunity. I suggest that there is more talent
    than needed. After graduating from college and working for several
    companies it became obvious to me that I would probably always be
    working beneath my capabilities. That essentially one or two percent
    of those at the top really NEED talent and the rest have positions
    requiring something like consistency of technique rather than
    intellectual or innovative.
			       Just my opinion.
					       Carlyle