From: dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Kashmir massacre (?)
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:10:18 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1ikvj6INN53g@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu) writes:
> In article <1993Jan8.100624@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>>In article <1ij7hvINN34t@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu
>>(Vivek R. Prabhu) writes:
>>
>>Hope you wouldn't mind me disagreeing with a little with what you've written :)
> 
> 
> Sure, I do not mind.
> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>The (BSF or other) jawans on the ground have really not shown such political
>>acumen in the past and I would be skeptical they would have shown it this time;
>>Punjab notwithstanding. 
> 
> 
> The alienation in Punjab, from the administration is due to the excesses
> of the Punjab Police, and in some rare cases, the CRPF. However, that is
> not an excuse for the security forces,  to  be careless in their outlook
> towards the common people. An extremist battle cannot be won by guns but
> can be won over by good deeds. The same is the situation in Kashmir.
                     ^^^^^^^^^^
> 


 Vivek, I have a strong disagreement with you here. Good deeds are reserved
 for those who deserve them. Those who are pro-secessionists like Jammat or
 pak-aided JKLF sympathisers can never get any amnesty. The mode of such group
 is destruction in the name of any religion. Today it is Cong.(I) at the Delhi;
 if any (say commies, by fluke) would have acquired power, where Islamic rise
 and dar-ul-Islambadis go ? In fact *any* government promising to be rational
 ruler cannot simply give a walk-over to terrorists. Thus, I strongly beg to
 differ on your saying "good deeds". The Punjab problem has been spewed by
 Mrs. Gandhi - showing that a very charismatic person can also make mistakes.
 She payed very dearly for it.


> 
>>> In fact, in Kashmir, the security forces, have been specially directed
>>> to be humane in their approach, since Girish Saxena, is a man who does
>>> not tolerate any excesses by the troops there.  He has been consistent
>>> in taking action against any erring security personnel,  no matter how
>>> mild a charge has been against them. 
>>
>>
>>
>>I don't recall reading reports of a dressing down given by Saxena in the
>>past. Do you remember any instance?
> 
> 
> Oh Yes indeed. In 1991, after the allegation of rapes against the BSF in
> Spore, the Governor gave a firing to the Area Commandant,  asking him to
> ensure the security of the people there,  and when the allegation itself
> was found to be false, the man was sent back again. Also in almost every
> case, where an excess has been brought to the notice of the Governor, he
> has proceeded top suspend the Officer concerned, and transfer him out of
> the region itself. The actions, however, I must agree are not publicized
> widely, given the common reason of not trying to lower the morale of the
> forces.
> 


  I hope that some apologist of Islamic-terrorism in Kashmir will read your
  comments here !

  The slogan is " Kashmir main' rahena hoga, Allah-Akbar kahena hoga !!!"
  GOI will simply stay put till the last moment, that's the irony.


>  
>>> From the reports, it is therefore, quite evident, that it was a battle
>>> between the terrorists, and the security forces, which resulted in the
>>> blaze in the explosive dump. 
>>
>>
>>Its difficult to determine which with such conflicting reports. The policy
>>of restricting access to the press and human-rights organizations to the
>>valley leads to greater confusion and is part of the problem. 
>

  Actually the Nov. 22nd article by Ed. Gargan would be of use here. The
  article clearly depicts that IA retaliates in Kashmir when there is a
  barrage of AK-47 clad mujahadeen's provoking to get attacked. Pakistan
  who has systematically housed terrorists - giving amnesty to Amanullah Khan
  - JKLF leader, has been greedy over Kashmir since 1947. The "elimination" of
  Dr.Shyamaprasad Mukherjee is an example of how deep the waters might run  
  - while   being calm on the surface. Thus, the cry-hoarse attitude of the
  Islamic apologists and commies when GOI has taken a strong stand, is an
  example of how divisive the people are in India - subject to the garbage
  fed by (p)secularists everyday. That GOI has not occupied the Kashmir valley
  once for all, is the root cause of the future problems. All this in the
  name of exercise of adult franchise ! (This is basically hilarious because
  a semi-feudal country need not "mess" around with parliamentary democracy - 
  that would   be giving rise to more chaos than the British left for us.

> 
> I agrre very much. This is a policy, that requires serious reconsideration
> and would go a long way in restoring credibility. There is a saying in the
> political circles, "An open media, and transparent Government,  can be far
> more credible in its motives, than in bluff, bluster, and propaganda".
> 
> 
> 
>>Suppose the security did indulge in the massacre, trying to brush it under the
>>carpet is not going to win the population to our side. It only brings the
>>problem to a point of no return. Acknowledging our mistakes and bringing to
>>light the atrocities perpetrated by the millitants is a more honest way of
>>convincing the common man that we are not out to sunjugate them. Duping
>>ourselves in believing that the govt. or the security forces are angels and
>>giving them a free hand is not going to solve the problem. We as citizens have
>>to convince ourselves that the govt. forces are on the side of truth and 
>>righteousness. The press must be allowed to gain access to the valley.
> 
> 
> As I said, I agree with you, and I would use the same logic above.
> 
> 

  This is in response to Javed's comments:

  Allowing the kashmir issue to remain for 50 years was the Nehruvian
  Secularism - that has yielded *nothing*. Serious attempts to *solve*
  the kashmir problem *will* not eradicate the poverty in India that
  affects *both* Hindus and Muslims. Allah or Vishnu does not provide
  a bias here. 

  Javed's comments are inept and amateurish. *Any* government will do
  (if not more) to "kick the shit" out of those who interfere with India's
  internal affairs. Given the fact that we see (statistical fact) what is
  the "peaceful" image of Islamic countries, any govt. will have to step-up
  the security forces. The situation is pretty clear. If the U.N interferes,
  i.e sends security forces, then it means that GOI cannot manage her own
  problems. Before such a thing happens, GOI must put in more security
  forces and get the problem over with. Combating secession is a moral
  responsibility of GOI - that is the promise to all Indians. Preaching
  peace does not work with terrorists and secessionists. What India needs
  is extremely brutal attack on terrorists and secessionists. For 50 yrs.
  all peaceful negotiataions have failed. Now, Kenneth Clarke has to give
  his "most wise" views on Kashmir - provide solutions, eh ?????

  The problem is not with Muslims in India - to whom Islamic fundamentalism
  is abhorrent - as it does not come in their daily lives. The problem  is
  with the root cause of all evil - a greedy country called Pakistan - whipping
  up Islamic fundamentalist forces *within* India. One of such centres is at
  Aligarh in U.P !!!

  for some (p)secularist party to exist, there should be a platform. This
  is again the concept of Nehru-Gandhi negative secularism - to negate the
  terrorism committed by a particular community in the name of religion. (More
  ironically, "That" religion calls for peace ????). Such parties spread
  disinformation - confusing the press and the people. 
   
   The press has been allowed in the valley, or, how did Ed.Gargan go and
   take pictures of the Kashmir - from the Indian side ??????? (I have the
   copy, and, can mail a photocopy to you Javed.)

> 
>>> You have to remember one thing, if the security forces would have been
>>> involved in the massacres which have been alleged to have been done by
>>> them, then they would have constantly alienated the entire populace by 
>>> now, and would have been totally unable, to gain the kind of successes 
>>> gained by them so far. Notable among which have been,  the destruction 
>>
>>
>>
>>Going by the trickle of news coming out, I would tend to believe that the
>>population out there are fed up with both the militants and the govt. forces.
>>They are trapped in the cross fire and they the the losers in all cases.
> 
   There has always been oppossition to what GOI wants to do. Anyday, anytime
   one finds SPOILERS parading against GOI policies. It is because of such
   half-baked, knowledgeable eggshells that the half-literate go and pollute
   the polling booths - one of the moronic examples of democracy getting whored
   in S.E.Asia. Just tell me, Javed, what has really GOI in the last 45 years
   shown, as political measure, before the Indian junta ?????? Is there any
   way that we can conclude that political will of the people reflects the
   parliamentary democracy ?????

> 
> Yes, it is only a case, at present, of who is the lesser evil. In the case
> of Kashmir, it is the Security forces, who are a lesser evil.
> 
> 
>>
>>--Javed.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Vivek.
> 
> -- 
> vivek@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu),
> Research Assistant, Systems Engineering Lab., Dept. Of Computer Science, 
> School Of Engineering, Computer Science And Technology,
> California State University, Chico, California.


    - deb chatterjee
   (a good samaritan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian