HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Sp. heraldry & Columbus
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:22:29 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.025252.1740@vela.acs.oakland.edu> atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose) writes:
>
>  I doubt it, but only because I thought that the line of Columbus died out in
>the 16th century, and didn't make it much past his sons.  Can anybody 
>corroborate or deny this?

I saw a National Geographic article on Columbus about a year ago. In it
ther was a picture of Christobal Colon XXIV (!!!!) who is some sort of
descendent of Christobal Colon I, the guy who started all the fuss. I
presume that he is a direct male descendent. He is an officer in the
Spanish navy. He might have gotten VIP treatment during the 500

Lothar 
aniversrey celebrations, but he isn't an admiral.    

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Tau Cross (was:Re: FAQ fodder: Ordinaries)
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 20:42:43 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.011337.21573@microsoft.com> frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney) writes:
>In article <1992Sep23.174900.21977@vela.acs.oakland.edu> atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose) writes:
>[deletions]

>Well, maybe you need to get out more. The tau cross is an
>old, decidedly non-SCA term. I looked just now in a
>dictionary I bought in 1963 when I started college and it
>lists the following:
>
>"tau cross, a cross shaped like a capital tau."

Isn't the Tau cross known also as the Saint Anthony's Cross, since poor Tony
was crucified onto a capital T-shaped cross (which was the usual form of cross
used for crucification, the Latin cross used only for notorious criminals, like
Jesus, since his crime could be inscribed onto the upper part of the cross) ? 

About Tau Cross; I would remember the Teutonic Order brethren sergeants wore
a black tau cross on their habits (which were gray), whereas the brethren
knights wore a normal black Latin cross on their white habits. 

The brethren knights, of course, had to be of noble origin, while the sergeants
were usually of non-noble origin and somewhat lighter cavalry than the knights.
Perhaps therefore the sergeants wore less lavish uniforms ?
  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Sp. heraldry & Columbus
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 02:52:52 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.104146.1@ccsua.ctstateu.edu> staub_jon@ccsua.ctstateu.edu writes:

>I hope this is accurate and it helps. Does anybody out there know if it is 
>true that U.S. Navy custom dictates that the dirsect descendant of Columbus 
>(the current one is, like a lot of his descendants, a naval officer) be given 
>the honors normally accorded a full admiral? I've heard this tale around over 
>the years, and have always wondered about it's validity.

  I doubt it, but only because I thought that the line of Columbus died out in
the 16th century, and didn't make it much past his sons.  Can anybody 
corroborate or deny this?

Alan Terlep				        "Please don't shoot us--
Oakland University, Rochester, MI	         we're trying to help."
atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		     --Real public service announcement
Rushing in where angels fear to tread.		    for the Serbian Red Cross
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Position of Helm (Was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Keywords: bastardry
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:45:23 GMT
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated

>> 	Apart from a general interest in heraldry, it just so happens
>> that last night I read the chapter on crests in the Oxford Guide to
>> Heraldry/Thomas Woodcock, Somerset Herald and John Martin Robinson,
>> Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary (this means he's not on the regular
>> staff of the College of Arms), Oxford: Oxford U.P., 1988.  I have
>> never heard anywhere in the last 30 or so years that a helmet facing
>> to the sinister (ie. stage right) is a sign of bastardy.  Do not

I would recal that in Spain a helmet facing sinister would indicate
bastardry.
 
>> 
>> 	In British heraldry from about the 17th century, particular
>> helmet shapes have shown particular ranks, ie. spectator facing
>> grilled golden helmet = royalty; various degrees of gilded details and
>> positions showing different ranks down to an all steel jousting helmet
>> shown in profile or 3/4 profile for ordinary, armigers.
>> 
>> 	On the continent there are usually two ranks of helmets,
>> nobiliary helmets generally with grills and garnished with gold and
>> all steel helmets for the rest.

In the Finnish heraldry there are two kinds of helms:

1) Open helms (barred tournament helms) for nobility. Since there are very few
   nobles in Finland, they are rare.

2) Closed helms (tilting or jousting helms) for non-nobles.

All helms are onwards-looking. There is also often a necklace added onto the
open helm, while the commoners may not carry one on their helm. The crest is
attached onto a rank crown or a wreath on top of the helm in noble arms, onto
only the wreath in non-noble arms.


  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Position of Helm
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:47:14 GMT

  In the _Oxford Guide_, it says that

	"...there was no distinction between different types of helm before the
early 17th century in England, [although] this was not the case in Germany and
France....in Germany the barred elm belonged to the old nobility and the closed
helm to the newly ennobled.  By the 15th century the newly ennobled were using
barred helms, and the closed helm could only be used by third-generation 
noblemen."

  So, in Germany at least, the practice has actually reversed itself.
Currently the rules in England are:

	Royalty:		Gold, barred, affronty
	Peers:			Silver, gold bars, in profile
	Baronets, knights	Steel, raised visor, affronty
	Esquires, gentlemen	Steel, closed visor, in profile

	The book does say that exceptions to these rules are acceptable.

Alan Terlep				        "Please don't shoot us--
Oakland University, Rochester, MI	         we're trying to help."
atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		     --Real public service announcement
Rushing in where angels fear to tread.		    for the Serbian Red Cross
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: staub_jon@ccsua.ctstateu.edu
Subject: Sp. heraldry & Columbus
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 15:41:46 GMT



Let's see if I can do this from memory......I *think* this is what Cristobal
Colon was granted after he made it big:

1st quarter: Castile
2nd quarter: Leon
halftime (sorry)
3rd quarter: a sort of aerial view of a coastline, a bay, and some islands
4th quarter: five gold anchors on blue, indicating his elevation to Admiral
In the base point were his family arms, which I think were "Or, a bend azure a
chief gules"

I hope this is accurate and it helps. Does anybody out there know if it is true
that U.S. Navy custom dictates that the dirsect descendant of Columbus (the
current one is, like a lot of his descendants, a naval officer) be given the
honors normally accorded a full admiral? I've heard this tale around over the
years, and have always wondered about it's validity.


Thanks, Joe
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@siena.watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Bain's Clans of Scotland
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 15:50:49 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

thomas wrentmore barnes asked for an opinion on Bain's Clans and Tartans of
Scotland. 

Bain gives a brief discussion of the history of each clan, including a
Gaelic form of the name.  An appendix lists common Scottish given names.
It is commonly cited as documentation for name submissions in the SCA,
mostly because it is so widely available.  It is often acceptable
documentation.  However, Bain is not particularly interested in the history
of names, and gives no information on the age of any name.  Many of the
given names in his list are not medieval, and many of the Gaelic forms of
surnames are modern back-formations.  Before relying on it, I suggest
looking for George F. Black "The Surnames of Scotland", the very best
reference on the history of Scottish names.  For historical information
about clans, I recommend "The Highland Clans" by Sir Iain Moncreiffe of
that Ilk, Albany Herald.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: brandon@euler.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Sp. heraldry & Columbus
Organization: Brown University Math Department
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:28:20 GMT

Velde Francois provides a description of Columbus' arms:

>which translates roughly into: a quartered shield 1) sinople, a castle
>Or 2) Argent, a lion Purple [tongued] Sinople 3) islands Or on waves of
>sea 4) the arms that Colon used to bear.  Note that 1 and 2 recall the 
>royal arms of Castille and Leon, but with marks of difference.

Thanks! This is very interesting.  But what is "sinople"?  It seems to be
translating the Spanish "verde", which sounds like it ought to be green....

Joshua Brandon	    Brown Math Department	  brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu
   "It's free association time here at Incoherent Central!"
YAZ/socrates
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Bain's Clans of Scotland
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 21:53:09 GMT

I recently realized that book I own (title and author listed above) is
actually a useful-looking reference. Is it an acceptable source for
SCA-style name documentation or is it a turkey? 

Thanks in advance,    

Tom \|/
     0


 

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: Roger Gardiner <rfgardin@lib.uwo.ca>
Subject: Re: Position of Helm (Was Re: Computerized Family Crests) 
Cc: rfgardin@lib.uwo.ca (Roger Gardiner)
Organization: Relayed-by-Sendmail
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 15:46:12 GMT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
To: rec.heraldry@julian.uwo.ca

	I had sent this message directly to cassie... but she suggests
that it would be of interest to the whole group and so I have
forwarded here.

Forwarded message:
> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 22:39:22 EDT
> From: Roger Gardiner <rfgardin@lib.uwo.ca>
> Subject: Re: Position of Helm (Was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
> Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
> In-Reply-To: <1992Sep10.214230.29631@nas.nasa.gov>
> References: <1992Sep9.121729.13074@relay.nswc.navy.mil> <1992Sep9.194633.16617@ultra.com>
> Organization: University of Western Ontario, London

> 	Apart from a general interest in heraldry, it just so happens
> that last night I read the chapter on crests in the Oxford Guide to
> Heraldry/Thomas Woodcock, Somerset Herald and John Martin Robinson,
> Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary (this means he's not on the regular
> staff of the College of Arms), Oxford: Oxford U.P., 1988.  I have
> never heard anywhere in the last 30 or so years that a helmet facing
> to the sinister (ie. stage right) is a sign of bastardy.  Do not
> confuse this with bends, and batons sinister which are diagonal
> stripes facing other than the "normal" way.  These have for centuries
> been used, along with other symbols and charges to denote bastardy.
> Normally helmets would not face sinister because that direction is the
> "less honourable" direction.  Normally in British heraldry one coat of
> arms has one crest and therefore one helmet.  There are exceptions,
> too few to go into here.  If three helmets were to appear for any
> reason, there are two possibilities:  (1) they would probably all face
> to the dexter side (ie. stage left) (2) the two outer ones might face
> the centre, and the centre one might face directly out.  This
> frequently happens in German heraldry where multiple crests are often
> shown when arms are quartered.  In this case with odd numbers of
> helmets, the centre one would always face towards the viewer and the
> others would face inwards to the centre.
> 
> 	In British heraldry from about the 17th century, particular
> helmet shapes have shown particular ranks, ie. spectator facing
> grilled golden helmet = royalty; various degrees of gilded details and
> positions showing different ranks down to an all steel jousting helmet
> shown in profile or 3/4 profile for ordinary, armigers.
> 
> 	On the continent there are usually two ranks of helmets,
> nobiliary helmets generally with grills and garnished with gold and
> all steel helmets for the rest.
> 
> 	Scotland does insist on certain exceptions:  lately as general
> practice they have been using a forward facing sallet (late 15th
> century rather light weight) shell-shaped helmet for commoners.  It is
> a singularly awkward form for any kind of heraldry.  I hope this
> clarifies your answer to someone else's earlier request.
> 
> Roger Gardiner, S.Nob.
> 

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Sp. heraldry & Columbus
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:52:42 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.025252.1740@vela.acs.oakland.edu> atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose) writes:
>In article <1992Oct4.104146.1@ccsua.ctstateu.edu> staub_jon@ccsua.ctstateu.edu writes:
>
>>I hope this is accurate and it helps. Does anybody out there know if it is 
>>true that U.S. Navy custom dictates that the direct descendant of Columbus 
>>(the current one is, like a lot of his descendants, a naval officer) be give 
>>the honors normally accorded a full admiral? I've heard this tale around over
>>the years, and have always wondered about it's validity.
>
>  I doubt it, but only because I thought that the line of Columbus died out in
>the 16th century, and didn't make it much past his sons.  Can anybody 
>corroborate or deny this?

The line of Christopher Columbus (Cristobal Colon) indeed DOES survive in
Spain, and the traditional career of the male members of the Colon family
is naval officer. I would recall there was a small story about Cristobal
Colon XIII (or something like that), who is an high-ranking Spanish naval
officer, in the National Geography some time ago, as a caption of a larger
article about his famous ancestor. About the USN honours I do not know anything

>Alan Terlep				       

  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Spanish Heraldry
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 20:26:42 GMT

In article   writes:
>From: JBrandt@AAA.UOregon.EDU (Laurie E. W. Brandt)
>Subject: Spanish Heraldry
>Message-ID: <1992Oct1.162511.11739@nntp.uoregon.edu>
>Sender: news@nntp.uoregon.edu
>Organization: The Polyhedron Group
>Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 16:25:11 GMT
>Lines: 15
>
>     Any good books/articles dealing with Spanish Heraldry? (either in
>English or Spanish)

Good question. I put a question of the same subject on this group some time
ago (it was article #3) and I haven't recieved a single answer yet.

>   c. Did Chistopher Columbus ever recive a grant of arms from the Spanish
>Crown is so what was it. 

Yes. It is quartered; 1: Castilla (gules, a three-towered castle or), 2: Leon
(argent, a lion rampant, purpure), 3: Azure, five anchors per fess 2+1+2, 4:
A map of an archipelago, light blue and and brown tones; on base the arms of
Ch. Columbus before ennoblement: chief gules, or damasced, a bend azure.

Or something like that.



  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Position of Helm (Was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:10:54 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

Roger Gardiner <rfgardin@lib.uwo.ca> writes:

>>I have
>> never heard anywhere in the last 30 or so years that a helmet facing
>> to the sinister (ie. stage right) is a sign of bastardy.

I have, unfortunately many years ago, in a library book, so I can
not give you references

>>Do not
>> confuse this with bends, and batons sinister which are diagonal
>> stripes facing other than the "normal" way.  These have for centuries
>> been used, along with other symbols and charges to denote bastardy.

A common way in this country was to use the arms in reverse colors. For
several generations, the bastard sons of the king of Denmark were called
Gyldenl|ve (Goldenlion), the royal arms being blue lions in a field of gold.

>> 	In British heraldry from about the 17th century, particular
>> helmet shapes have shown particular ranks, ie. spectator facing
>> grilled golden helmet = royalty; various degrees of gilded details and
>> positions showing different ranks down to an all steel jousting helmet
>> shown in profile or 3/4 profile for ordinary, armigers.
>> 
>> 	On the continent there are usually two ranks of helmets,
>> nobiliary helmets generally with grills and garnished with gold and
>> all steel helmets for the rest.

These rules generally applies in Denmark:

A barrel helm shows that the arms are very old

A jousting helmet is for commoners

A grilled helmet is for the nobility

The royal arms have no helm, I don't know if they ever did. Elsewhere
an open visored helm is used for royalty.

Note that anyone of course use any arms they like (except the royal
arms), there is no heraldic autority in Denmark.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: geofuel@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (D. Birk)
Subject: Heraldic Lecture: Toronto
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:42:59 GMT

 
HERALDRY & GENEALOGY = SLICE OF HISTORY
=======================================
by Hans Dietrich Birk, FHSC
 
a public lecture will be given on
Saturday, November 7, 1992 at 10:15 am
to noon.  Metro Toronto Reference Library
789 Yonge Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
 
Mr. Birk will speak on the colour and
symbolism of 242 ancestral shields in
Medieval Europe and what they reveal about
ancient tribal history. 80 colour slides
present medieval Rolls of Arms representing
50 years of genealogical research by
Canada's foremost heraldic researcher and
artist. Mr. Birk holds Chair #6 of the
International Academy of Heraldry, Geneva
and is corresponding member of 7 societies
and a founding member of the Canadian
Heraldry Society.
 
This may be the last public lecture of this
distinguished author and artist. The meeting
represents the 9th Annual Meeting of the
Armorial Heritage Foundation. Don't miss it!
===========================================
HERALDRY & GENEALOGY = A SLICE OF HISTORY
 
 
 
 
.
From: 91babik@gw.wmich.edu (Lisamarie Gemma Babik)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: WANTED: Macintosh clipart?
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:43:12 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

Does anyone know of any if there is clip art (or picts or something along 
that line) of common heraldic symbols (i.e. griffins and such) for the 
Macintosh??

Thanks in advance,
  Lisamarie
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________

                 "Faith is to believe what we do not see,
         and the reward of this faith is to see what we believe..."
			       St. Augustine

__________________Lisamarie Gemma Babik__91babik@gw.wmich.edu__________________
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: Position of Helm 
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:55:05 GMT

>> 	On the continent there are usually two ranks of helmets,
>> nobiliary helmets generally with grills and garnished with gold and
>> all steel helmets for the rest.

French heraldry never had a functioning hierarchy of helmets, 
although a few attempts were made in he 17th-18th c. to create one.
On a French coat of arms, the size, color, position, shape of a helmet
is most likely devoid of meaning. Crowns are what counts.
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney)
Subject: Re: FAQ fodder: Ordinaries
Date: 27 Sep 92 01:13:37 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Windows/DOS Users Ed Group

In article <1992Sep23.174900.21977@vela.acs.oakland.edu> atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose) writes:
[deletions]
>
>  I've never seen the term "Tau Cross" outside of the SCA before, and I believe
>that the term applies to a "potent couped" (one that ends before the edges of
>the shield.)
>  

Well, maybe you need to get out more. The tau cross is an
old, decidedly non-SCA term. I looked just now in a
dictionary I bought in 1963 when I started college and it
lists the following:

"tau cross, a cross shaped like a capital tau."

	-- Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language.

-- 
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
	"Well, I'm a little muddled." -- Glinda
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: FAQ fodder: Ordinaries
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 20:14:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.091020.2130@odin.diku.dk> klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois) writes:
>Isn't the Cross of Jerusalem crossed rather than potenty?
>
>                        |
>			-+-
>			 |
>		    --|-----|--
>			 |
>			-+-
>                        |

The arms of the kingdom of Jerusalem:

Argent, a cross couped potent, cantoned of four Greek crosses couped, Or.

It is, indeed a cross with "T-bar" ends, like Mr. Kristiansen sstated. The
cross Mr. Velde refers, is a cross crosslet.

  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: FAQ fodder: Ordinaries
Date: 27 Sep 92 21:48:44 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In a previous post, Josh Mittleman wrote that he found an unusual
ordinary in a Russian Armorial, that is similar to an ordinary in German
and Dutch heraldry.
   Actually this shouldn't be suprising, since Russian heraldry only
developed after Peter the Great forcibly "Westernized" the Russian
court. By that time (late 17th C.) heraldric style was well defined in
Western and Central Europe. Russia also recieved a number of German
immigrants over the years, some of whom might have been armigerous. I'd
bet that if Russian heraldry looks a whole lot like German heraldry it
would be because that is where they borrowed it from. 

Have fun,    

	Tom \|/
             0
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry