HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:47:13 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <carlos.727895790@morgan>, carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges) writes:
|> 
|> Languages, ethnic identity, etc - it doesn't matter.  It's just a name.
|> Read that again.  It's just a name.

Carlos, why don't you go to read your post WWII history again before coming
back here? It is not just a name mister. The FYRM constitution talks about
the liberation of Macedonian all around the world. Given the fact that the
Yugoslav communists maintained for more that 40 yrs that there is a sizeable
Macedonian minority in Greece, Greeks feel threatened by the particular
passage in the GYRM constitution.

Of course there's no Macedonian minority in Greece, simply because there's
no Macedonian nation.

To you it's just a name. Good. It's your oppinion and I do respect it. But
at the same time I question your knowledge on history.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10641 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1334 soc.culture.croatia:479
From: viking@bnr.ca (Harold Henrikson)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Reply-To: viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 13:09:57 GMT

In article <Jan25.193807.68029@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan25.131902.27829@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, viking@bnr.ca (Harold Henrikson) writes:
|> |> 
|> |> Aristotle was an Athenian.
|> 
|> Harold, bud, you need some classes in Geography.
|> Aristotle was a Stagerian, and believe me, Stagira is not even close
|> to Athens.
|> 
|> -- 
|> Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------
|> Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
|> Colorado State U
|> (303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab

Well, that's 2 Greek responses; one says Aristotle was Macedonian and
one says Stagerian.  Anyone else?  Was he perhaps Spartan or Persian?
--
Harold Henriksen                    Bell-Northern Research
email: viking@bmerh694.bnr.ca       Ottawa,Ontario,Canada 

Pillaging and plundering were more fun than programming!
(Opinions are not my employer's and sometimes not mine)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10607 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1306
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:44:58 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <C19Kov.58I@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

|> I don't think the Republic of Macedonia wants to share the
|> Graecomacedonian identity just assert its own different, but equally
|> Macedonian identity. 

Are there any neurons left connected inbetween your ears?

There is not ethnic identity known as Macedonian, in the FYRM. Are you so blind
or misinformed to realized that that "nation" popped up at the request of Stalin,
compromising serbs, slavs, greeks etc in its population? And are you ignorant 
enough to disregard the fact that was is called "macedonian language" is a
mixture of Greek and Turkish and some slavic and serbs dialects, originated in
early 19th century to facilitate trade within that region? 

|> Well since the Macedonians of the Republic of Macedonian have lived in a
|> geographical region called Macedonia for some 1,400 years they seem to
|> have a pretty good claim.

The region has been there for 2,000 yrs. No argument on that. But the
so-called "macedonias of Skopjie" haven't been around for more than
half a century.

 
|> Let's look
|> at the present, or if we are going to look at the past let's look at
|> *all* of it, not ideologically selected highlights.

You asked for it: the present is quite simple. You have a communistic-rooted
government in Skopjie thinking that Stalin's idea for gaining an exit to the
Aegean sea is not a bad idea after all. And you have people around countries
that fight communism, paying a tribute to that dictator by supporting his
dream!

|> Well the geography at leasts overlaps.  As for ethnic states, Macedonia
|> is a *geographical* region spread through three countries where many
|> different ethnic groups live.

No argument on Geography. But allow me to remind to you that there are not
"many ethnic groups" living in Greece. Which actually is the case with the
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and some parts of Bulgaria.

No one would like to see a war spreading in FYRM. The goverment of that state
can protect the country by accepting a name to reflect anything but a forged
ethnic identity.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola Malenovic)
Subject: vicevi ("crnjaci" - citati na sopstvenu odgovornost...)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:28:09 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network
Keywords: offencive, jokes
Followup-To: /dev/null

preuzeto sa NOTESa u beogradu, vicevi mogu da budu offencive za neke, tako
da svi citate na svoju "odgovornost". flames to /dev/null.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        im postavio zasedu sa svojim Knindzama. Cekaju oni tako u zasedi,
        cekaju ali od gardista ni traga ni glasa. Tek u neko doba kapetan
        Dragan rece:
                - Majku mu, sto li ih nema?  Da im se nije nesto desilo?
--
                  Islo dete sumom i naleti na cetnika.

                  - Koliko ti je godina? - upita cetnik.

                  - Tli, jos malo pa su cetili.

                  - Neces, neces.
--
           Ide cetnik kroz RajvoSa i vuce za nogu mrtvog muslimana.
    Prilazi mu crnac iz UNPHROFOR-a i zgrazavajuci se,upita ga:
            -Sta to vuces??
            -Medjeda,zar ne vidis.??
            -Jel' to grizli??
            -Ma jok,KLALI !!
--
-- 
Nikola Malenovic
malenovi@agassiz.cas.und.nodak.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10669 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1349 soc.culture.croatia:493
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Tudjman's Best Friends - From "Germany's Secret"
Date: 24 Jan 93 22:19:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1993Jan24.171902.19752
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1993Jan23.163505.19722@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:


While copying the article ( to distribute it on my university )
I have realised that I did cut the title in half:

>
>
>GERMANY'S SECRET
>

It should be:

"Germany's Secret Balkan Plans"



Milan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
From: rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: 22 Jan 93 21:17:07 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN)
NNTP-Posting-Host: spcsun25.bbn.com

In article <1993Jan22.014007.6171@news.weeg.uiowa.edu>, lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis) writes:

|> The rights of one group of people should not harm the rights of another
|> group of people.  In this case the rights of Greeks who live in Macedonia,
|> Greece, are violated by the request of Skopjeans to gain recognition
|> under the name "Macedonians". 

Are their rights also violated by the people of Macedonia, Ohio
and Macedon, New York?

Are the rights of other Greeks violated by the people
of Athens, Georgia and Sparta, Wisconsin?

Were the rights of the people of Venice, Italy violated by the
developer and residents of Venice, California?

-- 
Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: NPR: Bosnia Faces Aggression now from Croats
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:02:44 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <lm0npbINN2h9@news.bbn.com> rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:
>In article <C19t2s.Hru@apollo.hp.com>, goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:
>
>|>     Mr.Izetbegovic recently attended the Islamic Conference in Baghdad.
>|>     Do you think he went there because the majority of Bosnians 
>|>     (~41% Muslim) had voted to build an Islamic state in Bosnia?
>
>Could it be he went there because it was the only place he thought
>he could get some help?  He sure isn't getting much from Europe 
>or America or anywhere else these days.

    The Bosnian goverment is getting plenty of humanitarian and 
    diplomatic help from the West.  However, they are unhappy with
    the arms embargo, as well as with the Western diplomatic pressure
    forcing them to negotiate with the Bosnian Serbs and Croats.



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money" Deep Throat
Disclaimer: Other opinions are mine only
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
Subject: If Andy and Miguel knew to read ...
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:06:28 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

If A.T. Fear and Miguel Borges knew to read they would have avoid
embarassing themselves with the following comments:

|> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
|> Is this a reference to the old communist constitution or the one
|> adopted since Independence?? I have a feeling that it might be the
|> former which is not an entirely honest way of arguing.

|> carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges) writes
|> Exactly.  But then again, such fanatics rarely argue honestly.
|> When they feel their arguements are weak, they immediately attack
|> you personally.  Every response I've gotten has done this.

Gentlemen, the passages were from the constitution of FYRM adopted
after the independence. I am not doing any kind of propaganda despite
what you might think (or wish.)

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:30:00 CET
From: sasa.petrovic@zamir-bg.comlink.de
Reply-To: sasa.petrovic@zamir-bg.comlink.de
Distribution: world
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: War and Rape
Organization: Zamir = for peace, Beograd
Content-Length: 1546    
X-Gateway: NETCALL3.8 UC xclhh.comlink.de [UZERCP V3.99d]

I think that all three sides in this war should be ashamed for 
using victims of violence as some proof of their truth.

As if I am Serb, I should give an example of some girl I know 
that was raped, give her name, the names of the criminals that 
commited that, and all the other things.  Then someone that is 
Croatian would say like "so what?  I know 2 girls that were 
raped..."

That's wrong!  And should be stopped!  It seems that we're proud 
of it.

I see that most of the people that write here are saying 
something like all of them: Serbs, Muslims and Croats are doing 
that, but the Serbs are doing the most and the worst.  Also, 
since I live in Belgdare, the information that I can get is 
like "all are doing it, but Muslims the most" ot "bur Croats the 
most".

The idea of saing who's worse, puts someone being "better".  The 
fact that it is done is the worst!  If someone says "Croats are 
raping the less" justifies the rapings that Croats commit (or 
Serbs or Muslims).  One rape cannot be "better" then other!

Maybe some question would be "who started first", but since we 
know the results, I guess that wouldn't be much of help.

When the war started, Serbs were chosen by the world that they 
are "the bad guys" - because Serbian government was socialistic, 
and most of the wolrd felt like it was communist.  So, everything 
that was bad, was seen first in Serbia, no matter who actually 
had it first (like those camps and other things).  I guess that's 
why everyone puts Serbs as being bad and evil.

Regards,
Sasha
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: NPR: Bosnia Faces Aggression now from Croats
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:41:03 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1jmfun$9af@agate.berkeley.edu> boyle@kirkuk.berkeley.edu (Joseph Boyle) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.155221.19585@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>Indeed, how can Bosnia face aggression from Croats and Serbs,
>>when they do represent majority of population there?  It is 
>>high time for Bosnian Muslims to rethink their strategy, goals, 
>>and leadership ( whose only quality seems to be that they are 
>>good Muslims and experts in Islam ). 
>
>I can't believe you are so stupid as to tell Americans that it is OK
>to do anything to a minority, and to further expose the covert
>Serbo-Croatian alliance of racist extremists.  I am writing President
>Clinton right away to urge him to send arms and air support to
>Bosnia's secular democratic government, which seems to be the only
>hope for sanity the region, and I urge other Americans and Europeans
>to do the same.  

    The media often refers to the Bosnian goverment as "Muslim-led".  
    To me, this sounds neither "secular", nor "democratic".

    Are we talking about the same goverment?

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money" Deep Throat
Disclaimer: Other opinions are mine only
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pnbalkans@igc.apc.org (Institute for Global Communications)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: A Question about sanctions
Date: 22 Jan 93 17:08:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:37.1614@zamir-bg.zer.sub.org:319737055:cdp:1475300388:000:881
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnbalkans    Jan 22 09:08:00 1993


From: Institute for Global Communications <pnbalkans>
Subject: A Question about sanctions

Unfortunately, you will not be able to get around the
sanctions via e-mail.  Computer connections depend on
the phone lines.  So if the phone lines are down, the
e-mail is down, too.

Joel GAzis-SAx

Greetings to the Peace Movement in Beograd

/* Written  1:22 am  Jan 21, 1993 by maksim.sestic@zamir-bg.comlink.de in igc:soc.culture.yu */
/* ---------- "A Question about sanctions" ---------- */
I'm interested in what will  happen when (if) European Community press
harder sanctions against x-YU, and when all these phone lines get cut?
Is  there a  way to  by-pass such  restrictions in  the future  - with
e-mail? How  does information exchange work  in such situations (total
blocade  of  country  borders)  at  all?  Please,  respond  as soon as
possible, 'till it's not too late. :(
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:40:07 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>its right to that name or of the GraecoMacedonians to call themselves
>Macedonians. However there is also the Republic of Macedonia which has
>an equal right to this name and part of Bulgaria with similar rights.

The rights of one group of people should not harm the rights of another
group of people.  In this case the rights of Greeks who live in Macedonia,
Greece, are violated by the request of Skopjeans to gain recognition
under the name "Macedonians".  If Skopjeans have trully good intentions
for Greece, they should respect the rights of Macedonians in Greece who
wish not to share their identity with their northern neighboors under
the current circumstances.

If Skopjeans think that Greece's position is unjust, then they should 
prove why they deserve to be called "Macedonians" (using historical,
cultural, political etc. arguments)

> No one group has exclusive rights here, there isn't one sort of Macedonian
>there are many.

When we are talking about identity, including national or ethnic identity,
we are talking about uniqueness (at least that is my understanding of the
term "identity").  Therefore, I cannot see why it justifiable to use the
same term to describe geographical, ethnic, and political entities that are
different.

(To support my point, please count how many confusions have occerred or will
 occur about "Macedonia".  I have read in several prominent US newpapers
 articles that Alexander the Great was an ancestor of the Skopjeans, although
 people who are familiar with history know that this in not the case).

>Andy

Panos Lolonis
U. of Iowa
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10716 alt.news.macedonia:246 soc.culture.misc:582
From: carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: 26 Jan 93 12:23:27 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis) writes:
>Just another indication of how the majority of the world perceives
>the problem. The majority which, as
>the above netter (sorry Miguel!) has no knowledge (actually no clue!) of the
>history related to the issue nor, naturally, is gonna bother to
>read or think much about it; rather their complete knowledge comes
>from a couple of sentences they heard on their local news - or the way
>these sentences sounded..

Please don't include me in this group.

>So I repeat my point: let's be careful about the two sentences the
>world hears. If Greece would officially (rather than unofficially)
>pursue modification of Salvomacedonia's name - so that it includes
>the term "Macedonia" but still not create confusion and aid in its
>territorial claims - this majority
>of the world would not get the idea of "name-copyright" issue
>(I indeed used to think that
>the fact that it is not a name-copyright issue
>should be obvious even with lack of  knowledge; common sense
>should be enough, or so I thought). 

>On a more serious note Miguel; you and others HAVE to read
> a little relevant history
>if you want to post and start discussions.

From all the responses I've gotten, the solution every Greek gives
me is that Macedonia should change its name.  If that's the solution,
then what's the problem?  The name.  Nothing else.  Oh, and fear of the
past.
>L. Skartsis



-- 
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`
end
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: jdd1@cec2.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
Subject: Re: If Andy and Miguel knew to read ...
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:41:22 GMT

In article <carlos.728222015@morgan> carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges) writes:
>jdd1@cec2.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:
>
>>Could this be a north south kind of conflict?  The good lighter skined
>>slavs, that live in the north, against the darker and "uncivilised"
>>Greeks in the south??  Could this be an unconsious display of european
>>racism (I won't get into names so that I won't insult anyone,  but you
>>can imagine who are the blonde blue eyed people by their names, even though
>>this may not be very accurate).
>
>Ha.  A very bad generalization.  I am neither white, nor "northern".
>And I certainly don't have blode hair and blue eyes.

I am sorry, but I was not refering specifically to you, your name looks 
like it's  spanshish or mexican.  And the above passage did not imply
that whoever disagrees with us is a racist!!  Come on, give me a little bit  
more credit than that!  But I wonder if it is true for some people on the
net....  Anyways, it was more of a complaint than an argument. 
>
>>Don't get me wrong,  there is much to be desired from the
>>attitude of a few of the Greeks on the net too, but I canot understand
>>the passion of some of the norhern european netters on this subject
>>which does not affect their lives one way or the other!
>
>And how would a nation named "Macedonia" affect Greeks that live in
>the U.S.A.?  It would bruise their fragile egos.

Silly argument.  The wellfare of Greece is in our interests.  Most of
us are students abroad that will return (1984 education report, Greece
has the second largest student body abroad with 33,000 students, 1/3
of them for graduate studies).  Which means if anything goes wrong
in the area you are going to be sitting comfortably in you chair in
front of your computer, trying to decide whether you will share your
wisdom with the people in soc.culture.bangladesh, or rec.automobiles,
while me and the other Greek netters will be in some trench fighting for
our lives.  For you it may seem simple,  but for us it is not.
tens of thousands of Greeks have died over macedonia, till as recently   
as 1949,  when the slavic militia groups were slaughtering people
in vilages in macedonia.  Or is Greek life too cheap for your standards?

Regards

James Dimarogonas

P.S.  Oh my god, I will be accused of mutlism for the above paragraph!!!
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10601 soc.culture.europe:11320 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1293 soc.culture.croatia:455