From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Subject: Re: theocratic states
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Distribution: talk
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:53:32 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.1777.21017@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Goof
>
>  > 1. When did Israel object to the US becoming a Christian
>  > theocratic state?
>
>The organized American Jewish community is the most vociferous
>critic of any hint that the U.S. might be or become or ever was a
>Christian state, politically or culturally. When a U.S. governor
>(Fordice of Mississippi?) recent remarked, with simple accuracy,
>that the U.S. was predominantly a Christian nation culturally and
>historically, the loudest howls of outrage came from Jewish
>rabbis (according to The New York Times).

	This is not the same as being or becoming a theocracy.  It is
	unconstitutional for the US to become a Christian theocracy,
	but I do believe that the US is mostly a Christian nation.  I
	would appreciate it if you could post or E-mail me the article.


>
>At the same time the organized American Jewish community expects
>the American taxpayer to contribute royally to the upkeep of
>Israel, supposedly in large part on the rationale that Israel
>shares America's democratic values. But Israel at the
>governmental level is permeated with Orthodox Jewish theocratic
>influence. Clearly Israel does not share American democratic
>values when it comes to the separation of church and state.

	The reason for America's funding of Israel is because they
	are allies which are both democratic.  Whether church and
	state are separated or not does not necessarilly effect how
	democratic a nation is.  Great Britain does not separate
	church and state and yet it is a democracy and probably
	America's staunchest ally.

>
>This is an example of the moral and conceptual schizophrenia of
>so many Jews who are passionate about promoting policies in the
>diaspora which are not at all honored in Israel. I.F. Stone read
>these folks well.
>
>Approximately 2 to 3% of Israel's population is Christian, which
>is equivalent to the Jewish population in the U.S. Imagine if
>they began protesting with vigor, and on fundamental democratic
>grounds, any offenses to their religious sensibilities by the
>Israeli government.

	Israel never professed to separate church and state unlike the
	US where it's written in the Constitution.

>
>If the Christian majority in the U.S. did decide to change the
>rules, and institute a Christian state religion and issue special
>identity cards to Jews, they could point to the example of
>Israel--"the light unto the nations"--for a model of a righteous
>way to run a society. American Jews who enthusiastically support
>Israel could hardly object on conceptual or moral grounds. No
>doubt the Christian "rabbis" in the new state would offer Jews
>who did object the option of moving to Israel, where, according
>to Zionist and Orthodox Jewish doctrine, they belong anyway.
>

	I didn't know that Israel issued id cards to non-Jewish
	citizens because they were not Jewish.  I didn't know that Israel
	was giving Chrisians the special option to move to the Vatican either.
	I would appreciate it if someone would verify this.

>If you have any doubts, I strongly support the separation of
>church and state. With each passing year my awe increases for the
>authors of the U.S. Constitution and Federalist Papers, and the
>Anglo-Saxon libertarian genius which they expressed.

	Ah I see you have read it good.

 They came up
>with a blueprint for a liveable society for the future.

	Sure that's because you're not a minority.  See how great
	the American society is then. 
	

 Israel's
>cultural style, on the other hand, in nearly every respect looks
>like a recipe for a massive self-destruct. I really wonder how
>many Jews truly believe in Israel any more, despite the lip
>service. If voting with their feet is the best indicator, and I
>think it is, I'd say the appeal is running quite thin these days.
>Diaspora Zionists talk a good game, but they are unwilling to put
>their bodies where their mouths are.
>

	So because I live in the US, I can't truly support Israel.
	Great logic. Did you ever think that there are reasons
	other than not wanting to live in Israel that Jews do not
	just pick up and move?  Do you propose that all African-Americans
	who support the blacks in South Africa go and move there?  How
	about Palestinians?  Should they go to the W. Bank etc.?  Maybe
	those who support Germany should go help reunite the nation. Etc.
	Etc. 

>Can there be a more ridiculous figure in the world than a
>militant nationalist of any stripe who spends his or her time
>ranting at citizens in a nation other than the one which is the
>obsessive object? If one's nationalist passions are running high,
>the sensible thing to do is to take up residence on the hallowed
>turf.

	Are you implying that supporters of Israel are militant nationalists?
	If so then I think that you have met very few pro-Israelis.

	By the way, I find it interesting that you write this huge post
	to answer one of my questions but ignore the others which certainly
	required a longer answer.  The 1st paragraph would have been enough.


	Geoff
>---
	


>  OLX 3.0 31-2557  The Exploding Plastic Inevitable
>--
>Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!