From: sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe)
Subject: Re: Heaven/Hell (was: Re: Perfect Love)
Organization: New Mexico State University
Distribution: world,public
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:13:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.163915.7710@engage.pko.dec.com> pub@riscee.pko.dec.com (Publius) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.215420.29371@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
>>
>> ... [quotes from Matthew deleted]
>
>First of all, these quotes you brought up by themselves have little
>relevance in the question we are debating, concerning whether the
>'lake of fire' mentioned in the Bible means the literal
>'torture chamber' (as held by the medieval scholastic dogmatism,
>examplified by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica) or that
>the 'lake of fire' is a Biblical metaphore for the state of
>separation from God (as held by the true Calvinism - as stated by
>John Calvin in his Institutes of the Christian Religion.)
>I have shown in another thread ("Afterlife theology in Judaism
>and Christianity") that Calvin's interpretation, that the
>'lake of fire' is a Biblical metaphore for the state of separation
>from God, has the backing of the Scripture.  You may want to read the
>discussions in that thread.

Actually I thought it more worthwhile to look up what Calvin himself
wrote on the subject in "Institutes of the Christian Religion."
Here's a quote from the relevant section:

	Now, because no description can deal adequately with the
gravity of God's vengeance against the wicked, their torments and
tortures are figuratively expressed to us by physical things, that is,
by darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth [Matt. 8:12; 22:13],
unquenchable fire [Matt. 3:12; Mark 9:43; Isa. 66:24], an undying worm
gnawing at the heart [Isa. 66:24].  By such expressions the Holy
Spirit certainly intended to confound all our senses with dread. . .
As by such details we should be enabled in some degree to conceive the
lot of the wicked, so we ought especially to fix our thoughts upon
this:  how wretched it is to be cut off from all fellowship with God.
And not only that but so to feel his sovereign power against you that
you cannot escape being pressed by it.  For first, his displeasure is
like a raging fire, devouring and engulfing everything it touches. . .
Accordingly, it was no insignificant thing that the apostle declared
when he said that the faithless "shall suffer the punishment of
eternal destruction, excluded from the presence of the Lord and from
the glory of his might" [2 Thess. 1:9].. . . Consequently, unhappy
consciences find no rest from being troubled and tossed by a terrible
whirlwind, from feeling that they are being torn asunder by a hostile
Deity, pierced and lanced by deadly darts, quaking at God's lightening
bolt, and being crushed by the weight of his hand. . . What and how
great is this, to be eternally and unceasingly beseiged by him?. . . 

[Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Volume 2, pp 1007-8.]

Thus I think it is extremely disingenuous for you to say that "oh, it
isn't hell, it's just separation from God."  To me, the words
"separation from God" have a neutral connotation--maybe no pleasure,
but no pain either.  I exist in a state of separation from God right
now, and it does not pain me.

On the basis of what Calvin wrote though, it seems that whether one
takes the quoted verses literally or figuratively, the teaching
conveyed is that eternal suffering is the lot of the damned.  Indeed,
the quoted verses are only *hinting* at the pain and misery the damned
are in for, if Calvin's viewpoint is correct.  (And before you claim
that the punishment isn't eternal--what did Calvin mean by the phrase, 
"unhappy consciences find no rest from being troubled. . ."?)

I don't think one can honestly escape the conclusion that eternal
suffering for the damned is what is in view here.

>To be more specific, I would say that these quotes from Matthew
>are concerning God's discipline on the believers.  If you read
>through these verses carefully, you will find that they are addressed
>to the believers.  They are not about the "hell" in the modern sense.
>Nowhere in these verses does it mention that the said discipline will
>last forever.  Oh, Matt. 25:41 does mention 'eternal fire' (literally,
>'fire of the ages').  But 'eternal' modifies the word 'fire', NOT the
>duration of the discipline.  By the way, the word 'hell' never appear
>in the original Greek in any of the verses you quoted.  The word used
>was 'Gehennah', which has its specific meaning as used in those days
>(check with Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.)

Nowhere does it say that said disciplines won't last forever either.
And I think it is disingenuous, to say the least, to say people will be
thrown in an eternal fire without mentioning that they will be taken
out at some point.  It is more natural to conclude that the sinners
will be there for all eternity.

Whether these verses are meant to be taken literally or figuratively,
I think that the conclusion one is meant to reach is that the fate of
the damned involves eternal suffering.  Oh, you can "interpret" them
to mean otherwise, but if I "interpreted" Newton's Law of Gravity the
same way some people "interpret" the Bible, I could end up saying that
objects ought to *repel* each other via gravitation.

SD
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