From: tony@ais.org (Tony Poole)
Subject: Re: Amiga Future?!?y
Organization: UMCC
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:20:32 GMT

mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:

>In article <tony.712448396@ais.org> tony@ais.org (Tony Poole) writes:
>>
>> I don't know about this.  You have to realize that readers of c.s.a.advocacy
>> are a cynical bunch when it comes to Commodore.  You (I) may not have
>> started out that way, but reading the BS here day in and day out tend to
>> involuntarily make you that way.

>Less than cynical, and you don't have to be a usenet reader to see 386 clones
>with monitor, hard disk and 256 color displays going for not much more than
>an a500 with ONLY floppy disk drive and monitor.  The Amiga only has 32 colors
>and does not do photoquality graphics.  Without a REAL CPU, RAM, and a hard
>disk, playing a 10 diskette game or running spreadsheets just isn't much fun.

For *you* Mike, for you.  Here's a case in point.  A guy I work with, a
total computer illiterate, went out and bought a 386SX.  I found this out
(after the fact, of course - where I work, most people are computer
illiterate) and asked him about it.  What did you buy it for?  "Oh, my wife
wants to have a database program.  I love playing the games. (favorite was
Leisure Suit Larry)".  Now, I ask you, what the hell would this guy want
with a 486?  What does he do, or his wife do that absolutely requires a
50Mhz CPU and 256 colors?  Nothing.  Do the games look better in 256 colors?
Sure they do, just like the few amiga HAM games look better.  Big Deal.  the
database doesn't need that powerful a CPU, and doesn't use that many
colors.  And these are the people I am talking about.  Middle class common
people (by common I mean 'makes up the vast part of the population' -
nothing derogative).  They can't afford a 486, or if they can, can't
*justify* a 486.  

This is kinda stretching my point a bit, but I was at an Amiga dealer the
other day (which is in Petoskey, MI - a town with about a population of
20,000, and he does a *good* business there, enough to quit a consulting job
with a good company).  The guy that owns the place is an acquantance of
mine, and we were talking.  He told me that a guy came in wanting to buy a
C-64 to use in place of his 286 clone.  He told the guy about the Amiga (and
the guy already knew about it), but he wanted a C-64.  Said it was easier to
use and much more user friendly.  Now, whether you agree with the guy or
not, you gotta step back and examine the logic.  The guy was using it at his
business apparently.  Why would he want a 64?  I dunno.  Apparently he felt
he didn't need any more power than that 6502 had to offer.  If he didn't
need any more power, he sure the hell wouldn't feel a need for a 486/68040.
While this may be the lower extreme of the situation, it illustrates my
point.  Computers have reached a level (not neccesarily the 64) where to
*need* any more power, new apps that require the power *for the common user*
will have to be developed.  Multimedia mixed with some sort of neural
net/artificial intelligence might be it - it might not happen for several
years.  You Mike, are in a not so average situation of being a developer.
You need power (or at least think you do), most people don't, at least in
this stage of the game.  Some 486's might be being sold to common users, but
it's only because of slick talking salesman vs relative computer
illiterates.  Some people just buy them to "outdo" the other guy.


>I just want CBM to keep up.  They started out with a huge lead in the industry,
>with multitasking, superior graphics capabilities, and a GUI that works
>better than anyone else's.  There has been a steady decline in the Amiga's
>relative power and now the Amiga is WAY WAY WAY behind in everything but
>operating system.  And now the OS is losing its edge, too.  You can't tie
>an OS to a slow 68000 and 8 year old hardware technology and expect to
>push the envelope very far.

Maybe they don't wanna push the envelope.  You ever think maybe their *aim*
is the common user, not the super-duper-workstation-a-holic type people?
This is what the 500 is aimed towards certainly, and most definitely the
600.  The CDTV fits this category as well.  Why, just why, would you but a
CDTV in the first place?  Really, I'm seriously confused by this.  Until you
saw which direction it was gonna take (aimed towards educational vs games vs
serious CDROM apps) what's the point?  Just cause it's a new product?  I'm
not blasting your descision, just seriously interested in your logic.

>There has been ZERO innovation from CBM.  Lots of enhancements, yes.  But the
>dike has sprung soooo many leaks and CBM engineers don't have enough fingers
>to plug them all.

Leaks on the high end.  Common users are bone dry.  Consumers live for
enhancements.  Most people, myself included, can't afford a new system every
year and a half.  If I could, I would have to first sell my current system
and put the money towards the new system.  I could do that by posting to
c.s.a.marketplace.  How many other people do you think have this
opportunity?  Not many.  It becomes a hassle, so instead of getting the "new
system", they get the enhancement that takes them to the level of the new
system, which may not always be the most cost efficient upgrade, but is
affordable *at the moment*.

I'm my own case in point here.  I still have a 1000 (gasp).  I got it in
December of '85.  Cost me $2000 (with some software packages in that).  Had
to take out a two year loan.  It was a *big* investment for me, having been
only 19 at the time, living on my own, and going to college.  I have used it
every day since that time.  The 2000 came out.  Did I want one?  You bet, it
was the new Amiga model.  The 2500 came out, and same thing, but I thought
about it and realized for what *I* do (programming for *me*, productivity
apps, games) the extra processing power was really not needed.  If I had to
sit for an extra second, what did it matter?  But, I really did want more
chip ram.  I wanted to be able to run XCAD a little bit more efficiently so
I could take my work home (which consisted of large drawings).  So, about,
oh, almost a year ago I guess, I bought a rejuvenator board for my 1000.
Shortly before that I bought a 50 meg hard drive, and an AdSpeed, both used
for about $200 and $100 respectively.  Picked up a HD interface for $50 used
and then proceeded to get it to work together.  It did, and flawlessly I
might add.

Cost me about $1000, gave me 2 meg chip ram, KS 2.04, a faster floppy drive,
hard drive, 14MHZ, etc.  It was great.  It was (is) like I bought a
*totally new system*.  Really.  KS2.0 gives that feeling, in and of itself.
Might not to you, but you're used to high end systems, right?  I've only
really been near a workstation.  

Now, you look at that $1000 and think, well for that price....but that's my
point.  I really couldn't justify $1000 all at once, but with all the
enhancements, I could over time.  'Course I could just *save* my money, but
with car payments, having a two month premature baby in the hospital a $1200
a day for 5 weeks in the hospital, insurance bills, rent, house payments,
etc...that's not so easy.

These "enhancements" you seem to downplay, enabled me to gain a better
system, to which I otherwise couldn't.  A *new* system.

Now, there really nothing I need a 68030 board for (other than running that
neato VMEM program that requires a MMU - and I really don't *need* this - I
never run out of my 3-1/2 megs).  I don't *need* it, but I want it, which is
mostly a result of reading these newsgroups and hearing about everything.
Will I get one?  Maybe, but like I said, I don't need it.  I can maybe
afford it, and that's the only reason I will get it.  Most people *can't*
afford it, and won't get it.


>I am actually happy with the Amiga.  I have a similar opinion to Skip
>Sauls, though - CBM SUCKS, the Amiga is GOOD.  It used to be CBM
>sucks, the Amiga is GREAT.  The Amiga is still useful, and there are
>a few apps worth using the Amiga for.  But fewer as time has gone on.

The Amiga *is* great - for what I do, and for what many other average users
do.  Really, if you think about it, the average user has no reason to buy a
clone over an Amiga and vice-versa.  For what they need, either will
suffice.  Most people buy clones, because "well, the guy I work with has
one".  

As far as the apps - there is not a *single* thing that I need to do on my
machine that I don't have an app for.  There used to be a few things I
wanted to simplify, but getting 2.04 with ARexx plugged that gap.

I run a *vast* amount of PD stuff, and for the most part, a lot of it is
better than commercial products.  Point in case here is Wasp vs ADPro2.0.
I have both, and don't use ADPro much.  For what *I* do, ADPro was a waste
of money.  

Now, I've been going through PC archives for some useful software to take to
work to make living on those machines easier.  I'll tell ya, the PD stuff,
while there may be more of it for the PC, is not nearly as flexible as Amiga
PD, and not nearly as well programmed *on average*, than the Amiga stuff.
For every program that does what it says right away without fuss, there are
10 that don't.  Most Amiga PD programs are straightforward.


>Some people are just downers all the time.  Marc hasn't been right the whole
>time - far from it.  But I am not stupid.  I see the writing on the wall.
>I see zero sales of Amigas.  I go to the local Amiga store and see no new
>apps for months at a time.  I see no compelling games to buy anymore either.
>THe best games are ports from other machines now.  I see neato hardware from

I could care less whether software is ported, as long as it's done well.

The writing you are seeing is being viewed differently than the common user
sees it.  You are making money from the Amiga, most people aren't.  This
makes a *big* difference in perception.

>I read Marc Barret posts for several years, not just a few months.  I never
>bashed CBM like I intend to from now on.  I never bashed the Amiga, and I

Fine, bash Commodore.  I don't see what it's gonna acomplish, with the same
old arguments.


>not much of a market to induce anyone to make products for it.  CDTV is
>a lousy audio CD player - I know, I have one and that's all I use it for.

I would *never* buy a CDROM drive to play audio.  You want an audio CD
player, buy a good pioneer or denon.

>Nothing at all compelling to buy on disk.  My CDTV player doesn't recognize
>many of my music disks.  It doesn't recognize the buttons on the front
>pannel - they beep but the machine sits there doing nothing.  Push
>fast forward button and nothing happens.  Hit play and the disk starts
>playing song 1 again from the start.  Piece of JUNK!

Well....I don't know about this.  I know three people that have CDTV's and
they all work fine.

I still wanna know the logic behind the purchase.

>And here's the amusing part - I go to a PC store that is the size of
>a large department store - in fact it was a federated (previously owned
>by Atari Corp <- jack tramiel) store before.  50 aisle of PC hardware
>and software.  50 different PCs running all kinds of apps that I wish
>I had right now - I need an income tax planning package, know of one
>for the Amiga?  And there are 486 boxes with 4MB of RAM, 80Meg Hard
>drives, 256 color VGA graphics, and built-in CD ROM drives for $1100.
>Compare that with CDTV.  CDTV pales in comparison.

A friend of mine uses a comumercial tax preparation package, but I don't
know the name of it.  Therefore there is at least *one* available.  If you
really want the name, send me EMail, and I'll ask him the next time I talk
to him.

Now, tell me what you want the 486 w/4meg, 80meg HD, all those colors, CDROM
to do.  I mean, why are you buying it.  Better yet, what are you seriously
intending to use it for *that an average user would*?  Remember that cuts
out programming.  (and BTW, I've read your statements in other posts saying
"that's where the money is", so don't BS me)


>You simply don't get out much.  For every Amiga store with 4 aisles of
>software and a few hardware products behind a counter, there are
>50 stores like the ex-federated store (CompUSA, FWIW).  Go get a copy
>of PC-Shopper magazine for $3 and see 700 pages (more like a phone
>book) of COMPUTERS (in general) advertised and not one Amiga ad or
>dealer in the thing.

For every Amiga PD program, there are 7 PC programs that do, or try to do
the same.  I mean, I looked for a small util to allow you to build a
database of directories, and allow you to type a partial path in to cd to.
There were many.  Almost all did the same thing.  What's the point?  I
finally settled on one, and it *still* wasn't as quick as CCD for the Amiga.
But that's not my point.  My point is quality, not quantity.  There are
indeed quality PC commercial products, and then there are the wanna be
products, that advertise to be cheaper than the "other" package, but  fall
sufficiently behind in features as to be unacceptable.

Quantity doesn't impress me.  If so, I'd be in awe of lemmings.


>People like Mike Schwartz see 68030 Macintoshes selling for half the
>price of the A3000 and little more than a new A500/A600 setup.  People

Then why aren't you buying a Mac to program on?  Seriously, I wanna know.


>CBM seems to be satisfied with what they have done to the Amiga.  I remember
>the back-door that the original Amiga team put into 1.2:  We made Amiga,
>they fucked it up.  I can't agree more.

Commodore isn't aiming the machine directly at you presently Mike.  This is
much of the cause for your dissatisfaction.

You can't please all of the people all of the time.




---
Look!  I deleted unnecessary sig's!  Maybe it's a disease and every
c.s.a.advocacy reader will catch it!


-- 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Poole                       tony@umcc.ais.org * tony@irie.ais.org 
Traverse City, MI USA          tony@cherry1.trv.mi.us * tony@cherry1.UUCP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy