HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Stephen S Davis <sdavis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: RE: Homeschool Netgroup
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:33:22 GMT


Although I have not heard from them for a bit I subscribed to a
homeschool news group at:

home-ed-request@ima.isc.com

We have five children (boy 11, boy 9, girl 7, girl 3, girl 1) and
have been homeschooling for about 5yrs.  I would be happy to discuss
with anyone who has general question or question on Dayton Ohio
specifically.  Rules vary by school district.

Regards, ssd

Stephen S. Davis                   FUZZNAME: Stephen_Davis@osu.edu
4910 Upper Valley Rd         EMAIL: sdavis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Dayton, OH 45424             Home (513)879-1869
OSU APRTMNT (614)262-3480    OSU Work, Ed P&L (614)292-4872
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 21:36:05 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@signal.eng.umd.edu


In article <BxyxEp.AAM@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
[part of article deleted]
>
>But we can see it a teacher knows the subject.  In some cases, we can see
>if a teacher can learn the subject.  If not, how much good is the teacher
>doing by teaching the subject?  Every indication I get is that most of the
>present teachers could not learn what most of those they are teaching can
>learn except rote.  We cannot make progress by being willing to accept the
>results.  If college students cannot formulate word problems, we have to
>consider that they have not been taught this at all, or taught this so
>quickly that learning was essentially impossible, not that they were unable
>to learn it when it was properly taught.  If not all can learn it, so be it;
>nothing is gained by false certification.  

   On the one hand, a teacher ought to know the subject, so one might complain
that not enough people who do understand the subject, teach.   On the other,
knowing a subject doesn't always translate to being able to teach.   For
example, one has to be careful about how well the students are comprehending
the material.   Being organized helps, too.   Some who teach, have a hard
time assessing the abilities of the students, and hence just keep on teaching
at their own pace, regardless of whether a student understands or not.
This seems more prevalent in universities than in high schools.

    So, the issue is to be able to get teachers who not only understand the
material, but also can assess how well the students are following the material.
Again, the problem is bigger than just teacher competence, and it includes
how to attract the kinds of teachers we need to teaching in public schools,
and also how to get parents more involved in the education of their
children (boy, I am beginning to sound like a broken record).

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
From: mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel)
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Organization: Department of Chemistry, University of Toronto
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:00:37 GMT

In article <scottj-191192102142@iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu>
scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.143511.13979@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>,
>mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) wrote:
>>      In a democracy, we all share both in the glory of our national
>> achievements and in the ignominy of our failures.
>
>So if I voted for the losing candidate, I am still to blame for the failed
>policies of the winning candidate?  You might be willing to accept such
>blame, but don't try to lay on me.

     This is nit-picking.  The main point of my article is that blaming
teachers for our problems is easy, blaming your friends and neighbours
(if not yourself) is much harder.  The only way to fix institutions in a
democratic society is for a majority of voters to care enough to make it
an issue.  Perhaps you, personally, have voted for all the right
candidates, but a majority of us, for whatever reason, haven't.
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that a majority of eligible
U.S. voters don't even bother to cast a ballot?)  This is the real
problem we have to overcome.  Even if you manage to get a few teachers
fired now, how can you guarantee that more bad teachers won't be hired
to replace them?  Unless people care enough to scrutinize their
institutions, no tweak of the regulations will result in substantial
improvement.
     Perhaps I should bear in mind when I post to Usenet that a lot of
people are awfully literal-minded.  I apologize for any confusion I may
have caused.

				Marc R. Roussel
                                mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca
From: elg@elgamy.uucp.taronga.com (Eric Lee Green)
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:14:44 CDT
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Why Johnny can't tell right from wrong.
Distribution: world
Organization: Eric's Amiga 2000 @ Home

From article <1992Nov16.144944.23285@asl.dl.nec.com>, by dillhoff@aslws01.asl.dl.nec.com (Doug Dillhoff):
> The title is "Why Johnny can't tell right from wrong.", by Kilpatrick, a
> thoughts? It is a case for character education as opposed to the current
> and past emphasis on descision making skills and allowing the child

H.I.S.D. is big on "character education" Kilpatrick style. I can't see
where it makes much difference. My parents tell my kids, "If another kid
bothers you, beat him to a pulp." My parents tell my kids, "Them teachers
is there only cuz they can't do nuthin' else." The kids do not respect each
other, and they do not respect their teachers. In fact, one teacher at the
school I teach at got a split lip and another got the wind knocked out of
her by a kid who decided teachers were fair game. Then the parent comes up
to the school and says "What are you people doing to my poor child, my
child isn't a discipline problem," etc. etc.... one parent personally
threatened to turn me into an ink blot on the pavement for disciplining his
daughter, who "isn't a behavior problem" but who somehow despite that
managed to drench me with the entire contents of a milk carton, dashed into
my face.

When the parents are saying this to the kids... what choice do we have
besides telling the kids, "don't listen to your parents"? If anything makes
me get out of the inner city, it will be this issue. I'm the wrong color to
be telling these kids that their parents are raising them wrong. If a black
man said it, it would be okay... if I say it, I'm a racist.

--
 Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.taronga.com   Dodson Elementary
 (713) 664-6446                             Houston, TX
                "Kids are kids, no matter what"
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 04:56:15 GMT

>I hate to take offence at the last sentence of a long post, but I strongly
>object to the inference that blacks get preferential treatment in the classroom
>and in grading. I have NEVER, in my years as a student at three institutions, 
>including one in the UC system, observed such incidents. 

Many colleges provide special preferred academic treatment for Blaks.
These include lower admission standards (in effect, adding points to SAT
scores, etc.), tutoring, mentoring, organization memberships, which are
denied Caucasian students. Perhaps you didn't realize such advantages
made available to you were race restricted.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Xref: sparky misc.education:4390 sci.astro:12185 sci.bio:4172 sci.chem:4719 sci.math:15217 sci.physics:19214
From: hdev@dutiag.tudelft.nl (Hans de Vreught)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.math,sci.physics
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:57:44 GMT
Followup-To: misc.education

brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:

>In article <1992Nov16.143453.22123@news.unige.ch> swann@divsun.unige.ch (SWANN Philip) writes:
>>On the contrary, I think that the legal and medical professions contain
>>about the same proportion of mediocrities and incompetents as the teaching
>>profession does. 

>On what basis do you reach that conclusion?  If nothing else, I have never had
>a medical problem which was not well-treated by my doctor.  I have never 
>had bad advice from my lawyer.  I have, over and over again, had teachers
>who have been ignorant of the subject matter, and unable to clearly 
>explain what they did know.  Additionally, I have never had a doctor who
>thought that sickness was OK.  I HAVE had teachers who thought that 
>ignorance was perfectly acceptable.  

>Where did you get this impression?

You didn't ask me, but ...

Well, I've worked in an academical hospital and during that time I've seen
lots of doctor's doing their research. In the many chats I've had with them,
you'll here them complaining about the weak ones. If they argue the competence
of them, is that a good enough impression?

It is often the case that people treat the medical profession as Holy People.
You don't question His treatement... Sorry, but I do. You probably have heard
this before: doctors are the worse patients. Of course, they know what can go
wrong.

But that's life. In most cases the absence of errors means that no work has
been done :-). But some minor mistakes (quite likely to happen) aren't that
bad. I remember a research stating that 1/3 of the diagnoses were wrong. Most
of them were not totally wrong or were wrongly treated (you'll be surprised if
you know how many illnesses are treated the same), but still the diagnose was
not correct.

Good doctors make less errors than bad ones, but don't forget they all make
errors. But hack, sometimes you need one of them, so you have to go to them.
Even a bad one knows more of medicine than you do and any doctor can do the
simple stuff.
--
Hans de Vreught                          | John von Neumann:
hdev@dutiba.twi.tudelft.nl               | Young man, in mathematics
Delft University of Technology (TWI-ThI) | you don't understand things,
The Netherlands                          | you just get used to them.
Xref: sparky misc.education:4429 sci.astro:12247 sci.bio:4189 sci.chem:4755 sci.math:15309 sci.physics:19321
From: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.math,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Of Lawyers, Doctors and Profs...
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:08:54 GMT
Reply-To: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Followup-To: misc.education
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <1992Nov20.090140.18847@ra.msstate.edu> wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.202238.13754@news.clarkson.edu> rajat@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Rajat Kapoor) writes:
>> 
>>Interestingly, all the three have an easy way out if they lose :
>>
>>Lawyers:  " It was a weak case" 
>>Doctors:  " The patient would have died anyway " 
>>Profs  :  " The student was hopeless" 

>	I think the last case is cited quite frequently, no?

Often in reference to students who become lawyers after failing to 
become doctors. 
                           ;-)

--
J. A. Carr                                    |  "The New Frontier of which I  
jac@gw.scri.fsu.edu                           |  speak is not a set of promises
Florida State University  B-186               |  -- it is a set of challenges."
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute |   John F. Kennedy (15 July 60)
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: mlc@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Matt Carlson ( Sun ))
Subject: Homeschooling in Texas
Summary: Leeper Case revisited may cause homeschooling Texans heartache.
Keywords: Homeschool
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:11:51 GMT

Several years back, there was a case in Texas (Leeper vs. Board of Education)
which established the legality of homeschooling in Texas.  The ruling declared
that education must be adequately provided in five areas of study:

	(1) Reading
	(2) Writing
	(3) Arithmetic
	(4) History
	(5) Citizenship

As long as it can be shown that these five areas of study have been tought
there is no legal action that the state of Texas can take against one who
homeschools (i.e. a warrant doesn't do officials any good).

This case, however, is being revisited at the Texas Supreme Court in Jan.
of 1993.  Freedom to homeschool in Texas may be hurt by the outcome of
this decision.  If you are a Texan who is either currently homeschooling
or thinking about doing it in the future,  I urge you to apply pressure
to your local and state representatives to create legislation which
supports homeschooling.  With Governor Ann in there with "institutional"
reformation, our individual educational rights are at stake.  Don't get
me wrong....Ann can do whatever she likes with our wonderful system--
I just ask to retain the freedom to homeschool as Thomas Edison and
Albert Einstein had the opportunity to do.


---My opinion only---


-- 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Matt Carlson			| Internet: mattc@snakepit.sps.mot.com
Motorola Inc.			| UUCP: cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!snakepit!mattc
RISC Microprocessor Group	| Phone (512) 891-4451
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: mlc@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Matt Carlson ( Sun ))
Subject: Re: Home Schooling
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:03:40 GMT

gerke@acs.ucalgary.ca (Ken Gerke) writes:


>Are there any home schoolers in this news group?  We have been
>home schooling since being introduced to the idea while teaching
>in China for a year and I'd be interested in sharing thoughts.
>Or is there another news group where this topic is discussed and
>bantered about?
>-- 

I read this newsgroup with homeschooling in mind.
However, most of the homeschooling stuff (oddly
enough) has appeared in sci.edu misc.kids.
I think the subject fits better here.

BTW, we are just beginning to HS our kids and 
have begun to build a library of materials in
our (ex) formal living room--- I knew there was
a good reason for having that superfluous room.

>Ken Gerke
>Academic Computing Services
>(403)220-5079 | gerke@acs.ucalgary.ca
-- 
Matt Carlson					| Motorola Incorporated
mattc@lucy					| Microprocessor Products Group
mattc@lucy.sps.mot.com		                | Austin, Texas  78735-8598
"The wise walk with the wise..."                | m/d OE318  (512)891-4451
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Free Middle/High School Broadcasts
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:04:41 GMT

The "underrepresentation" issue has both a serious and an absurd side. The
serious side addresses the fact that some professions, very well paid and
influential, are dominated by white males of northwest European extraction.
Other groups would prosper (or at least more of their individual members
would prosper) by gaining access to those professions. The professions in
turn would benefit from the "newcomer syndrome," a happy effect caused by
people who don't know what can't be done and therefore do it anyway. For
those reasons alone, we should encourage women, ethnic minorities and other
non-traditional suppliers of members to those professions.

On the other hand, no one complains about the underrepresentation of white
female college grads in the ranks of garbage collectors, process servers,
mall security guards, and other low-prestige positions. (Lack of such
representation in the US Senate, another low-prestige profession, has been
bewailed, however.) "Representationalism" essentially accepts the
blind-growth, get-rich attitude that ignores any thought of settling down to
a sustainable economic level; it wants a bigger slice of a poisoned pie. We
will be better off with fewer people of any race, gender or persuasion in
professions like law and automotive engineering, and more people in
productive, environmentally sustainable occupations.
--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.education
From: pgolden@nhgs.vak12ed.edu (Patrick S. Golden)
Subject: Re: Free Middle/High School Broadcasts
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Hampton)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 13:42:33 GMT

Charles -

I think you make some excellent points.  Clearly, there are
other factors that affect decisions of women and minorities to
enter science, math, engineering and related fields.  

The role of teachers -- as a form of role model, as well as
through their inspiring methodology to encourage pursuit of
further study -- has been demonstrated both empirically and
anectodally.  I'm sure we have all had teachers that have
influenced our lives in significant ways.

Teaching styles seems to have a major affect. Using real-life
applications, hands-on activities, less formal and less
competative teaching styles have all been shown to promote
learning, not just for women and minorities, but for all
students.

Making students aware of intrinsic as well as extrinsic values
(money, etc.) when studying science can have a major impact.
Any middle or high school teacher will confirm the interest
that exists among those groups when salaries and careers comes
up in discussion.

These are all factors that we have addressed in a booklet we
published this year called, "Counseling our Future Workforce".
I will be glad to e-mail you a copy if you like.  It is
footnoted and includes a complete biography that might lead
interested readers to specific studies.

Write me if you'd like one.

Patrick
-- 
|-------------------------------|
|++Patrick Golden++             | 
|Virginia Space Grant Consortium|
|pgolden@nhgs.vak12ed.edu       | 
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 04:42:01 GMT

>Not as difficult as you may think.  I have no problem accepting the fact that
>white people created the slave trade, wiped out the Native Americans, and so on

White people did not create the slave trade, wipe out the Native Americans,
and so. Such beliefs are racist.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: mchurch@cvgs.schools.virginia.edu (Mark Church)
Subject: Re: Alternative Ed Schools
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Lynchburg)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 00:58:01 GMT

Judith,
  Our school system actually has two alternative education
programs. The first one is called The Pride Center which
accepts students from both of our intercity High Schools and
allows them to complete their GED or High School Diploma. The
second program is called Project RODEO and this program reaches
out and "lassos" young drop outs back into the system. I'm
certain that our students would really enjoy conversing with
other students who may have some of the same problems.

I do not teach that program but I am very familiar with it and
am close to the teaching staff.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Mark Church
-- 
W. Mark Church              IIIIII   CCCCC   TTTTTT
ICT - Heritage High School    II     C         TT
Lynchburg, Virginia         IIIIII   CCCCC     TT
Internet: mchurch@cvgs.schools.virginia.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: brendas@tanguray.Central.Sun.COM (Brenda Scarchilli Sun SE - Detroit)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: quickest way to get a teaching certificate?
Date: 16 Nov 92 07:23:33 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: brendas@tanguray.Central.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: tanguray.central.sun.com



Anyone know how to get a teaching certificate if one already
has a BS and MS engineering degree and short cut the cost/and time
involved in doing this?

I've been told with the above degrees it would take 2 years full time.

Thanks
Brenda.
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Free Middle/High School Broadcasts
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 01:48:56 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@erlang.src.umd.edu


In article <1992Nov16.222410.16897@nhgs.vak12ed.edu>, pgolden@nhgs.vak12ed.edu (Patrick S. Golden) writes:
>Brian -
>
>I'm sorry you find this "racist". It is certainly not our
>intent to foster that attitude, but, rather, to present all
>students with role models for them to emulate.

     How do you decide the effectiveness of role models in
convincing students to go into science and engineering?  I
know the idea of "role models" is a popular one, but I wonder
how one measures how effective this method is?   Science and
engineering are not known to be easy, many non-minorities
choose not to pursue this area.   The most effective "role
models" will most likely be parents or perhaps teachers, but
dynamic teachers.   Dynamic teachers, whatever their race, can
be effective in getting people to stay in the field.

>Our broadcasts feature primarily females and underrepresented
>minority students because studies show that these students may
>be especially sensitive to the support and example of other
>successful students.

   Do the studies show why students choose not to participate
in science and engineering?   Perhaps these areas are considered
either too "nerdish" and that people are turned off by this rather
than a deliberate act of racism.

>Perhaps you should read the 1990 RAND Corp. report, "Lost
>Talent:  The Underparticipation of Women, Minorities and
>Disabled Persons in Science" by Jeannie Oakes.
>
>I think you will find that in our culture race and sex have
>made a difference in the ability of certain groups achieving.
>Perhaps you mean our culture is racist.  If so, I would agree.

   Does the report address why this has happened?   Statisically,
one can say that women and minorities are underrepresented, and
one can also decide that prejudice is the cause, but one shouldn't
start off believing that, and then find the report verifies some
pre-judgement.    For example, it might be useful to find out
income levels of those who choose not to go into science and
engineering.   Perhaps it's not a matter of race, but a matter
of income.   However, people like to ignore wealth-based
classes as a reason because people don't think of themselves
in terms of a unified lower class or middle class.

    It doesn't mean that there isn't prejudice, only that
there could be other factors as well.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education