HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: clin@athena.mit.edu (Chia-Liang Lin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: HSNU needs you!
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:30:17 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1992Apr17.151602.17313@acsu.buffalo.edu> hchiu@acsu.buffalo.edu (hung-chang chiu) writes:
>Is eliteness the purpose of education? Are you still reprimanding the
>pressure of the Entrance Exam, but at the same time, feeling you
>are in the upper level of the society because of the success of that
>one or two exam? Do you think the success can be defined by the 
>path of Jian4-Zhon1 -> NTU -> USA ? Is it so important to identify
>which high school "the best" even after ten years from graduation?
>Will you push your children to follow the "path to eliteness"?
>
>Just curious!
>
>							Jian-Zhon 83
>							NTU 87
>							USA now
	You were too serious at this matter, I guess. Most people who
recently posted something regarding their beloved high school, I believe,
didn't really mean to define their success or superiority over others.
Rather, they just recalled those good old days memories and
were willing to share them with other people. Be the pressure from
Entrance Exam ever so high, those high school days upon reflection were
still full of funs worthy of recalling. Of course, it doesn't make sense
to define one's success by examining which school he/she came from.
Nevertheless, telling people what he/she benefited from his/her own
high school, on the other hand, is definitely not a thing worthy of
your "curiosity".

Chia-Liang Lin
From: rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com (System Administrator)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Flights
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:22:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: crash.1992Apr11.232210.3775
Organization: Crash TimeSharing, El Cajon, CA

My wife is going back to Taipei this Wednesday. She's going on "Malayasian
Airlines." The price for a round trip is around $625.
The restriction is you must fly on Sunday, Wednesday or Friday.(I think)
Thought I'd post it in case aany spring break types are going home.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ProLine:  rsopicki@pro-amber         |        System Administrator
Internet: rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com |                of
UUCP:     crash!pro-amber!rsopicki   |             Pro-Amber
CIS:      75146.430@compuserve.com   |           619-460-9762
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Junior High
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:12:28 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <92106.005557U49110@uicvm.uic.edu>, <U49110@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:

> I was told that before the entrance exam for junior high schools was
> eliminated, whenever there was an anniversary party for the
> Da4-Ton2-Zhon1-Hsuie2 (Da4-Ton2 Junior High School) at Taipei,
> Jian4-Zhon1 would cancel all classes in order to let their students
> attend the party.   Was it true?

	** I don't like that. What's so important for Da-Ton? When
	   I was 12 years old, I was frightened by the fierce
	   competition to get into Da-Ton. So I did not even look
	   at it. I got to Jian Zhon anyway three years later.
> 
> One more question for "young" Jian4-Zhon1-ers:  Do you guys still
> have your high school initiation ceremony/training held in Bei3-Yau1's
> Musical Hall like we did, gee, about twenty/fifteen year ago ?
> 

	** Talk about buildings, who of you still remember the old
	   "Moo4 Lou2" (wooden hall)? I spent two years there before
	   the "Hsin1 Lou2" (new hall) was constructed.

	   At that time, students could still go out during the 
	   lunch time. Do you know what was the best fun at 
	   lunch break?
	  "went to the Botany Park to fool around with some
	   _green frogs_" ( Girls 1st High, in case you don't know)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: changht@eecs.nwu.edu (Hsin-Ter Chang)
Subject: Re: Gin Jong fans' chellenge!! (was Re: The Six-Year National ...)
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University, Evanston, Il., USA
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 22:00:20 GMT

ykhsu@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (yung-kao.hsu) writes:
> 
> 	Just a few weeks ago, I made a comment about Gin Jong's novel;
> 	particularly, I find it annoying to read many roles put into
> 	his novel that are greatly 'irrelevant'. After seeing S. Horne's
> 	performances, I have changed my mind a bit: there is indeed people
> 	like Gin Jong had described in his novel :-( They may be annoying
> 	and irrelevent but they exist!!!
> 
> 	Now, Gin Jong fans, there is a challenge: which role in his novels
> 	best describe S. Horne?
> 

I am afraid that we might let you down, Mr. Hsu. Even the most annoying
and lowest character in Gin's novels has more class than Mr. Horne does.
There is no comparison in this category.
4-9-92
H.T. Chang

Xref: sparky soc.culture.taiwan:7205 soc.culture.china:12463
From: mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Yeun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Joe Wang and his "Guo"
Date: 7 Apr 1992 15:41:18 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <69096@ut-emx.uucp> joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
>I'm not the only person who subscribes to this definition.  There are
>many people who believe that Taiwan and the Mainland are part of one
>"guo" even though they are against political unification now.

I doubt that is true.

I haven't met any people including those pro-unificationers who
claim that Taiwan and China are part of the same "guo".   In fact,
some pro-KMT scholars proposed the famous "Two Der-Guo(Germanies) Model"
(Liang[3]-Ger[0] Der[2]-Guo[2] Model).  People might say that they are
all "zhong-Guo-Ren".  However, they will hesitate to make the claim
that China and Taiwan are the same Guo, especially for those from
Taiwan.

>Ask your average Canadian.  Are Americans, British, or Australians
>your countrymen?  The answer tends to be no.
>
>Ask your average South Korean.  Are North Koreans your countrymen?
>The answer tends to be yes.

But in the case of Taiwan and China, it is not clear.  In fact, the tendency 
is more and more Taiwanese start to realize that the answer might be "NO".
The trend started when people started to "recover" from the lies and
brainwashing imposed on the mass media and education system in the past
40 years.   As long as the trend keeps going, more and more people are
going to choose the "No" as their answer. 

By looking at the fact that more and more HoLo/Hakka learning clubs
being founded in universities around the country, we know that things
are going our way.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:54:26 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.190605.15000@dlb.com>, steven@dlb.com (Steven Tsowen Chiang) writes:
<In article <1992Apr8.003446.16021@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
<>In article <92098.175400WSCHEN@twnmoe10.edu.tw>, Wen-Sung Chen <WSCHEN@twnmoe10.edu.tw> writes:
<
<><      The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan
<><              Republic of China (1991-1996)
<>
<>Wrong.  The Republic of China lasted for almost forty years, not just five.
<
<I guess you are joking.

Sort of.

<The figures in parentheses mean the period of 
<this plan.

Of course.

<In fact, ROC has been founded for more than eighty years, 
<not just forty.

Correction:  It *was* founded eighty years ago.  It isn't correct to say that
the Xia dynasty "has been founded" for several millennia.

<><The outstanding economic achievements won by the government of the
<><Republic of China on Taiwan over the past 40 years
<>
<>What "economic achievements" has the GOVERNMENT of the so-called "ROC"
<>in Taiwan made?!  I can't think of one.
<
<You can't think of one becaues you are not familiar with Taiwan, ROC.

Answer the question, please.

<>What "friends around the world" does the so-called "ROC" have?  Good ole
<>South Africa and south Korea--that's about all.  And I certainly wouldn't want
<>to call those sleazes my only friends.
<
<Certainly they are not sleazy.

South Africa isn't sleazy?!?!  South Korea isn't sleazy?!?!  I guess an
"ROC"-backer would think so.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
ZANG4 HAN4 YI4 JIA1 / GONG4 JIAN4 ZHONG1HUA2!
From: hchiu@acsu.buffalo.edu (hung-chang chiu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re:HSNU needs you!
Date: 17 Apr 92 15:16:02 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: SUNY Buffalo

Is eliteness the purpose of education? Are you still reprimanding the
pressure of the Entrance Exam, but at the same time, feeling you
are in the upper level of the society because of the success of that
one or two exam? Do you think the success can be defined by the 
path of Jian4-Zhon1 -> NTU -> USA ? Is it so important to identify
which high school "the best" even after ten years from graduation?
Will you push your children to follow the "path to eliteness"?

Just curious!

							Jian-Zhon 83
							NTU 87
							USA now
From: cwt2@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Charles W Tang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: ChineseTalk on PostScript Level II Printer?
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:00:17 GMT
Organization: Columbia University

Hi!  Has anyone tried printing Chinese documents (text files created
with ChineseTalk 6.0.x or ChineseTalk II 1.x) from a PostScript Level
II printer -- like Apple LaserWriter IIg or NEC M95?  How does it look?

Chinese documents printed from a Level I printer look alright, but
for larger font sizes, they look horrendous!  I'm just wondering if
using a Level II printer would work better.

Thanks!

-Charles, in charge?



  **** Om Ma-Ni Pe-Me Hung **** | "All the world's phenomena and ideas
  ==============================|  Are unreal, like a dream
      Charles Wei-Ting Tang     |  Like magic, and like a reflected image."
   cwt2@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  |  -- The Diamond Sutra
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 00:51:07 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.201209.29551@acs.ucalgary.ca>, bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens) writes:
<In article <1992Apr10.233642.8923@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
<
<Scott, if I understand you properly, you are saying that the
<treaty of Shimonoseki (sp?) was illegitimate?

Yes, that's the correct spelling; and yes, I consider it illegitimate.

<Are you saying that the CCP was wrong in the thirties and
<forties when they considered Taiwan as not being part of
<China?

No.

<Are you saying that they same the light only after the KMT
<thugs, having fled to Taiwan, convinced them that 
<indeed Taiwan had always been part of China?

No.

<Do you also think that Tibet is rightfully a colony of China?

Tibet is not and never has been a *colony* of China; it is and has long been
a part of China.

<A final question, what is your criterion for legitimacy
<of a government?  I get the strange feeling that your
<criterion may not be that different from the  ones that the
<most rabid KMT supporters would propose...

You may be right.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
ZANG4 HAN4 YI4 JIA1 / GONG4 JIAN4 ZHONG1HUA2!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: zzuo@iastate.edu (Zhiqi Zuo)
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:13:47 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.034117.27980@acs.ucalgary.ca> bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens) writes:
>(BTW, I think that there is a good case to be made
>that the present prosperity of Taiwan occurred not
>because of the KMT, but that at least initially, 
>the KMT was an obstacle to development...
>

Hi , Luc , I am not fully agree with you at this point . Taiwan's
developement is FACTUAllY due partly to the intellectuals and the gold
taken by KMT around 1949 . Otherwise the developement would have been 
much slower . Think of Philipine , you may know what I am saying .

>
>Luc
From: mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Yeun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: "Epidemic" (Re: Most Ridiculous ?...)
Date: 15 Apr 1992 14:57:41 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1992Apr15.194736.13895@acsu.buffalo.edu> chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu 
(Chun-Shi Chang) writes:
- I understand some of you are trying very hard to dis-credit KMT (which
- is none of my business). What I don't understand is why you are so
- eager to give credits to another "foreign regime" who used to colonize
- Taiwan and who used to treat Taiwanese as second-class citizens? Where
- is your "identity" here?

We don't want to credit or discredit any one.   All we have done and 
want to do is to unveil the facts. 

In article <1992Apr15.194736.13895@acsu.buffalo.edu> chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu 
(Chun-Shi Chang) writes:
- Besides, if you really think Taiwanese are stupid enough to accept
- whatever KMT are telling us, then I feel sorry for you.

We are not stupid.   Taiwanese were prevented from accessing the facts.
Without the support from these facts, no one can make a correct judgement.

In article <1992Apr15.194736.13895@acsu.buffalo.edu> chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu 
(Chun-Shi Chang) writes:
- ps. Hey, are you the guy who claimed that "Romanized Bible" is part of
- the Taiwanese Culture? Did He (Jesus Christ, oops, another "foreigner")
- give you any hints on how to preserve Taiwanese Culture? :-) 

Romanized Taiwanese is part of Taiwanese culture.   Just like any Chinese
song written in western music notation, using the staffs, is part of Chinese 
culture, dispite that there is traditional Chinese music notation.   A
language, just like music, is much more than a written form.  I hope you 
can understand this.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: aamir@IASTATE.EDU (Mohammad Asif)
Subject: Re: Flights
Reply-To: aamir@IASTATE.EDU (Mohammad Asif)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 01:21:08 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tuesday, 7 Apr 1992 18:33:23 CDT
From: <U14540@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: False accusation
 <1992Apr4.043726.9280@ulowell.ulowell.edu>

In article <1992Apr4.043726.9280@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, nhuang@cs.ulowell.edu
(Nai-An Huang) says:
>
>In article <1992Apr4.8188.8188@cel.SRI.COM> hsieh@cel.SRI.COM (Mark Hsieh)
>writes:
>>In article infiniti@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Chung-Yih Lee) writes
>>>I think you guys jumped to the conclusion a bit too fast.
>>
>>
>>    Being stupid is partially not their fault.
>>    Being shameless is totally their fault.
 My ass is on fire. I think i'll take some Preperation h.
From: v131pt62@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (GENKI DESU)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: HSNU needs you!
Date: 16 Apr 92 07:42:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <92105.114406U53298@uicvm.uic.edu>, U53298@uicvm.uic.edu (Sandy Yeh) writes...
>In my opinion, Taipei First Girl's High is *THE* best high school in Taiwan.
>I don't think we should be humble in this matter. :-)

	What makes you think that Taipei First Girl's High is *THE* best high
school in Taiwan??  If you taken the account of acceptance rate to the Tai Da,
you wouldn't be claming such a title...

------------------------------------
C.T. Yang
From: lko@math.rutgers.edu (lko)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Most Ridiculous ? (Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C")
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:36:56 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Apr15.010401.6900@news.iastate.edu>, zzuo@iastate.edu (Zhiqi Zuo) writes:
> In article <Apr.14.19.19.48.1992.10707@math.rutgers.edu> lko@math.rutgers.edu (lko) writes:
> >In article <1992Apr14.180021.17755@news.iastate.edu>, zzuo@iastate.edu (Zhiqi Zuo) writes:
> >
> >> Do you know what is the percentage of the people who were literate at the time
> >> , in China ? "Gao1 Xiao3 " , not " Gao1 Xiao4" was a vwry admiring education
> >> level at the time . " Gao1 Xiao3" ==== junior elementary school .
>                                           ^^^^^^^ should be senior
> 
> >    Good. Let's make a comparison. At the time Taiwan's elementary 
>                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ before 1948 ?


    That was 1942 statistics. A few other figures at the time
(p. 693, Taiwanese 400 Years History):

1. Industry grew 1600 times in 40 years. Industry made up about 50%
   of total production. Taiwan's industry was next only to Japan in 
   Asia.

2. Agriculture: Farmland increased by 30%, average yields up 4 folds,
   total agricultural output up 12 folds, in the 40 years.

3. Foreign Trade. Up 33 folds in 40 years. Annual net export was
   25-30%.

4. Ratio of (modern) physicians to total population was about 1 to 
   2000. Contagious diseases were largely elimated.

    
    As a side note, my parents had not seen any outbreak of epidemic
when they grew up. They only experienced it after ROC took over, and
I still have a vague memory of cholera scare. 
   


lehhun
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: lko@math.rutgers.edu (lko)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: "Epidemic" (Re: Most Ridiculous ?...)
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:39:48 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Apr16.214546.26335@acsu.buffalo.edu> chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang) writes:
>lko@math.rutgers.edu (lko) writes:
>------------ 1 ----------------------------------------------------------
>>The outbreak of the epidemic during ROC rule...
>
>Sigh, let try again. By "during ROC rule", you meant "during KMT rule",
>didn't you? Why keep confusing these two?


    In the relevant time frame, ROC=KMT. No confusion.



>------------ 2 ----------------------------------------------------------
>>    Let credits fall where credits due.
>
>Then don't you think the majority hard-working Chinese/Taiwanese derserve
>the most credits? Why keep emphasizing the meager contributions Japanese
>made 50 years ago?


    How the credits should be sliced between Japanese and Taiwanese
for the infrastructure built by the end of the War is a separate
topic, which I wasn't addressing. But ROC/KMT simply can not claim
any credit for what existed before it entered the scene.



>------------ 3 ----------------------------------------------------------
>>    Don't worry, a few postings by me on this net are insignificant
>>comopared to the power of massive indoctrination carried out by the
>>state machine. No, not even putting a little dent on the effect of 
>>the goernment-written elementary school text books, which every kid 
>>in Taiwan had to learn by heart.
>
>(1) I am not worrying. :-)
>(2) How do you know the contents of your "few postings" are correct?
>    They may well be the result of another "massive indoctrination"
>    carried out by TI supporters...


    Most of what I provided was quoted from a book which I gave 
the exact reference. Netters can judge for themselves how much they 
believe in the book. This is different from 10 years old kids 
being taught the *conclusions* the government want them to know.
Aside from the book, I brought up my own and my parents' experience.
How relevant are they? Well, you have no objection to the statement 
that cholera epidemic did occure during ROC time. And if I should be
wrong to infer from my parents experience that there was no epidemic 
occuring within about 20 years prior to the end of the War, I would
be happy to be corrected. Just present your evidence.



lehhun
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 04:24:42 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.003410.22128@watserv1.waterloo.edu>, ptyshih@watnow.waterloo.edu (Paul T.Y. Shih (Taku or Pear)) writes:
<In article <1992Apr8.003446.16021@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
<
<>Wrong.  The Republic of China lasted for almost forty years, not just five.
<
<Thanks for reconfirm this fact for us, Scott. Now we know that even a child
<of five year of age like you know that ROC is a legal government of Taiwan.

What the hell are you talking about?  The ROC was a legal (though corrupt,
inept, and very ineffective) government of Taiwan and the rest of China
for about forty years, in the first half of this century.  You seem to have
a problem with your tenses, though, as you wrote "is" instead of "was".
This is no place to use the historical present.

<>What "economic achievements" has the GOVERNMENT of the so-called "ROC"
<>in Taiwan made?!  I can't think of one.
<
<Well, we can't expect too much from this 5 year-old kid, can we???

Answer the question, moron.

<><and the
<><"Taiwan experience" is widely admired and emulated by other
<><developing countries.
<>
<>Name one.
<
<How about PRC? If you don't believe in me, you can go ask Li-peng!

Hands up, all who think that the PRC is following the so-called "Taiwan
experience".  Anyone?  Come on, there must be at least one or two of you
out there who harbour such a ridiculous notion.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
ZANG4 HAN4 YI4 JIA1 / GONG4 JIAN4 ZHONG1HUA2!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 19:51:51 GMT

In article <13891@star.cs.vu.nl>, mvdvalk@cs.vu.nl (Valk v/d M) writes:
<
<You only have to ask a few PRC citizens "Do you still believe in CCP?" and the
<answer is "No"

I certainly don't "believe in CCP", either.

<I'm not claiming: CCP is corrupt, KMT not. We all know both are corrupt. One
<real difference between the two is that on Taiwan traditional believes of the
<PEOPLE have not been systematically destroyed, this has happened all over the
<mainland, not just during the Cultural Revolution....

Rubbish.  The KMT has systematically squelched opinion and the expression
thereof in Taiwan--and continues to do so.

I can take a book praising Jiang3 Fei3 Jie4shi2 (Chiang Kai-shek) into the
mainland, but a copy of Mao's selected works would be seized at the airport
in Taiwan.  Why is that?

<Another difference is that the people on Taiwan generally are more affluent
<than their counterparts on the mainland

And we all know why that is.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the
KMT government.

Here's a project for you:  Tell me how to make the so-called "Taiwan
experience" work in a huge country of 1,200,000,000 people--nearly one-fourth
of the world's population.

<(except for the corrupt elite of the
<CCP of course! Did you know they were called little emperors - all THEY care
<about is MONEY, Mr. Horne. No altruistic ideals I'm affraid...)

That's not news to me.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
ZANG4 HAN4 YI4 JIA1 / GONG4 JIAN4 ZHONG1HUA2!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan