HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shane@cs.sunysb.edu (Shane Bouslough)
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, State U of NY at Stony Brook
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:26:57 GMT

Jon LaBadie (jon@jonlab.UUCP) wrote:

: In article <1993Jan24.230151.8266@sbcs.sunysb.edu> shane@cs.sunysb.edu
:	(Shane Bouslough) writes:
: >And to all you SCO'ers out there who are going to say "Yeah, but we
: >don't need all that stuff.", the point is
: >
: >	IF THE COST IS THE SAME OR LESS, WHY *NOT* GET THE EXTRAS?
: 
: I find myself in the strange position of arguing for SCO when I
: do not find it appealing.

Ouch!

: A car buyer considering a Bently or a Ferrari may be talking the
: same dollars and may feel the features of one vs. the other are
: "extras".

The problem with your analogy is that SCO is a *subset* of Dell, while
in your example, each car has mutually exclusive features. Thus it
really doesn't make sense to spend a fixed amount and get less! Even
if you don't need the features now, why pay for them later if you need
them?

The reason people keep asking Fred about what's in the SCO base release
is not because they want to show him that it lacks features (which he
seems to perpetually defend by pointing at his user base), but to show
him the same features plus more can be had for the same price. This is
not a technical issue, it's a value issue. This thread will never die
unless people realize this.

: Jon LaBadie
: princeton!jonlab!jon

-Shane

--
Shane Bouslough       | #include <stddisc.h>
shane@sbcs.sunysb.edu | "Follow your bliss" - Joseph Campbell
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sys5.r4,comp.unix.sys5.r3,biz.sco.general
From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Re: The Future of ESIX (was Re: PC-clone UNIX Software Buyer's Guide)
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 15:55:54 GMT

larry@trauma.rn.com (Larry Snyder) writes:
> Sure, how about Delvelopment?  How about NFS/TCP?  How about X11R5?
> How about users wanting to run DOS under Unix?

My brother is running SCO Unix at a car dealership on a standalone 386/40.
They have not a single monitor or terminal capable of graphics, and they
have no need for any graphics -- why would they want X11R5?  They only
have a single Unix box, with terminals and PCs hooked in through serial
lines to an Equinox intelligent serial card -- why would they want TCP/IP?
They run DOS and Windows apps on DOS and Windows machines -- why would they
want DOS Merge?  They have not a single C programmer on staff -- why would
they want the development system?

Seriously, Larry, please try to understand that in many cases, the extras
that you get with Dell (or whoever) are worth Zero.  Zilch.  Zip.  Nada.
And that means that a full Dell package at $1295 gives them exactly the
same functionality as the base (unlimited-user) SCO package -- and the base
SCO is even priced lower than Dell's $1295.

Yes, we run SCO right now.  We may or may not stick with SCO in the future,
but I'll always base that decision on our needs, and on what package will
meet them.  Getting stuff that we (or our clients) don't need won't make
me (or them) any happier.  I'll evaluate each system individually and try to
make the right decision.

> Many options -- unless your users want to do nothing but 'ls' all day :)

...or maybe run a Unix application all day (in my brother's case, they have
an integrated Progress-based dealership management system, plus Microsoft
Word for Unix).  Hey, that's real work to a lot of people...

[ \tom haapanen    "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca                   "trust the programmer" -- ansi c standard ]
[ waterloo engineering software      "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1416 biz.sco.general:5721 comp.unix.sys5.r3:478 comp.unix.sysv386:17952
From: root@candle.uucp (Bruce Momjian)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Date: 28 Jan 93 23:30:15 GMT
Organization: a consultant's basement
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Larry D. Pyeatt (pyeatt@Texaco.com) wrote:
:  Have you actually written assembly code for both the VAX and the
: 8088 family?  The 80486 is not a less complex architecture than the VAX.
: Less powerful? debatable.  Less complex? no.  The 80486 instruction set
: is ridiculous.

I would be interested in how this is true.  The 3/486 has removed most
of the register-specific instructions.
-- 
Bruce Momjian                          |  830 Blythe Avenue
root%candle.uucp@bts.com               |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  (215) 353-9879(w) 
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  (215) 853-3000(h)
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1293 biz.sco.general:5514 comp.unix.sys5.r3:379 comp.unix.sysv386:17896
From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Date: 24 Jan 93 16:34:13 GMT
Organization: MCSNet, Chicago, IL

In article <C180J5.7s6@sugar.neosoft.com> jpsb@NeoSoft.com (Jim Shirreffs) writes:
>>>The Sparc Classic will run all Sparc software?
>
>>Correct.
>
>Are you sure? 

Considering that they are selling these as SPARC systems to put on a network
where you would otherwise put an X Terminal, I think I can say "yes".  Note
that their Sparc-based systems have <always> been compatible with one
another as long as the OS version was reasonable match.  Solaris 2.x has a
Solaris 1.x compatibility emulator, although it hurts performance to use
it.

>>Therefore, you need to be able to get the Intel machine, plus hi-res
>>graphics and monitor, for $1700.00.  This is not impossible, but its not
>>easy either.
>
>>Don't forget that the Sparc includes Ethernet and sound ports in that base
>>price, color graphics, and a color monitor.  The Intel machine includes none
>>of these in the base price.  Further, the Sparc has the SCSI on the 
>>motherboard, and two serial ports which work.
>
>>SCO has a serious value problem.
>
>One good thing about the Intel platform is it ability to boot, DOS, OS2, NT or
>Unix. And software is cheap.

Only under DOS.  Under OS/2, presumably NT (there's nothing yet) and Unix
the software is definately NOT cheap.  Ask Frame about their $1k DTP package
for Unix on Intel machines!

Or call Informix and ask them about Database Packages.

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Data Line: [+1 312 248-0900]
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1304 biz.sco.general:5529 comp.unix.sys5.r3:388
From: merce@xenitec.on.ca (Jim Mercer)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Date: 25 Jan 93 00:48:47 GMT
Organization: Reptilian Research, Toronto, Ontario, CANADA

In article <1993Jan23.143653.25862@compu.com> fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) writes:
>A 5 user system should cost less than a 100 user system.

why?

the limited version required more work, ie. the code limiting it, so
it should cost more.

if SCO/Esix/Concensys were giving me horsepower enabling 100 user's i could
understand the price bump, but there is no difference between the 2 user,
and the unlimited except that the 2 user version is braindamaged (must be
in order to limit multi-user software to the absolute minimum definition
of multi-user).

-- 
[ Jim Mercer   Reptilian Research  merce@iguana.reptiles.org  +1 416-506-0654 ]
[                      longer life through colder blood                       ]
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1290 biz.sco.general:5511 comp.unix.sys5.r3:376 comp.unix.sysv386:17894
From: clove@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Christopher Love)
Subject: Dell SVR4 on Dimension systems
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: comp
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:12:47 GMT

Is anyone out there running Dell's SVR4 on a Dell Dimension 486DX2/50
system?  My major concern is hearing of problems with memory access
times on 50 Mhz systems, and finding out that the access time on the
Dimension is around 80 ns (compared to the recommended 60 ns I've seen
in the pc/unix buyer's guide and elsewhere).  

It's probably not an issue, as Dell supports their Unix on any Dell
hardware; I'm just interested in any personal experiences with this
sort of setup...

Thanks,
	Chris
--
Christopher J. Love || Texas Instruments, Inc. || I don't speak for TI
clove@lobby.ti.com  || Lewisville, TX          ||     Go Illini!   
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sysv386,biz.comp.sco.general
From: jpsb@NeoSoft.com (Jim Shirreffs)
Subject: Re: DOS emulation under UNIX
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:01:44 GMT

I've seen "Soft PC" on HP platforms, I think it is available on other (Intel)
pathforms too. Be warned though it is a 286 emulator. It will run Windows in
standard mode.

>$500 is a lot -- I'm glad I went the Dell route -- which includes
>DOS support under Unix (using Merge) in the base package 
>(along with TCP, X11R5, NFS, unlimited users, development, etc.)
>for $1295


I'm glad I went with Consensys $500 for full blown Unix. No PC stuff though :(

jim shirreffs

BTH has anyone seen 4.2 from Consensys? Is it worth upgading from S5R4?
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:01:36 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger):
>Certainly, [PC clones] have the installed base now.  But these
>"installed" systems do not play well together, they're unstable (ask
>any DOS user) and to get away from that is just too damn expensive.

It's DOS and Windows that are unstable, not the hardware architecture.
Contrast UNIX on a PC clone: it keeps going, and going, and going...

>As the world goes away from DOS to other choices the chip becomes less
>important.

"Goes away from DOS" ... to systems that support DOS applications,
like OS/2 and Windows and modern UNIX VP/ix or DOS Merge or SoftPC.
Those real people-use-'em DOS apps won't disappear for a decade or so.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
From: jpsb@NeoSoft.com (Jim Shirreffs)
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:21:01 GMT

>>The Sparc Classic will run all Sparc software?

>Correct.

Are you sure? 

>Therefore, you need to be able to get the Intel machine, plus hi-res
>graphics and monitor, for $1700.00.  This is not impossible, but its not
>easy either.

>Don't forget that the Sparc includes Ethernet and sound ports in that base
>price, color graphics, and a color monitor.  The Intel machine includes none
>of these in the base price.  Further, the Sparc has the SCSI on the 
>motherboard, and two serial ports which work.

>SCO has a serious value problem.

One good thing about the Intel platform is it ability to boot, DOS, OS2, NT or
Unix. And software is cheap.

jim shirreffs
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1254 biz.sco.general:5446 comp.unix.sys5.r3:348
From: davidsen@ariel.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Date: 22 Jan 93 22:15:43 GMT
Reply-To: davidsen@crd.ge.com (bill davidsen)
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center, Schenectady NY

In article <1jkqm9INN5iq@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us>, mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us (Marc Unangst) writes:

| Again, you can install with the "traditional" security defaults, and
| then lower the minimum login-id length and the password-length
| restrictions.  You can even remove the password-checking stuff
| entirely.  Try poking around under Accounts->User->Default in
| sysadmsh, as well as /etc/default/authsh and /etc/default/passwd.

  Several helpful people from SCO contacted me, and they suggested that
I might want to install with lower security and then convert the
password file to shadow with pwcnv. Since I only have to create multiple
users with the same UID once, I can hack the passwd file before
converting, then set the authsh and passwd defaults low. It's not
exactly convenient, but it's more supported than what I'm doing now when
I must, which is a script which rebuilds the protection stuff after I
have passwd and shadow.

  I believe that with higher security you have a minimum password length
forced somewhere else, but until I do another install I won't really
know.

-- 
bill davidsen, GE Corp. R&D Center; Box 8; Schenectady NY 12345
    Keyboard controller has been disabled, press F1 to continue.
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3
From: les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:05:34 GMT

In article <C1BDIs.Evn@trauma.rn.com> larry@trauma.rn.com (Larry Snyder) writes:

>The bottom line is with Dell it truely is plug and play.

The only thing really missing from Dell is CDROM support.  Is there
a 3rd party add-on if that is needed later?

Les Mikesell
 les@chinet.chi.il.us
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
From: holder@telesoft.com (Robert L. Holder @ignite)
Subject: Univel UnixWare Binary compatible
Organization: Alsys Group, San Diego, CA, USA
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:38:11 GMT

I have Univel Unixware. 
Can you run binaries from other 386 SVR4 operating systems like ESIX/DELL/...?
The programs I have will be X based applications. They are statically
linked with the native networking libs and X libs.
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
From: wht@n4hgf.Mt-Park.GA.US (Warren Tucker)
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Organization: TuckerWare/ARS N4HGF
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:26:05 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

David Mason (vid@zooid.guild.org) wrote:
: davidsen@crd.ge.com (bill davidsen) writes:
: >Rumors are cheap......
: ... this kind of thing is really pathetic. 

Absolutely.  The speculation makes a soap opera out
of a serious matter.  The spew belongs in the sewer.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren Tucker  (404)587-5766              n4hgf!wht or wht@n4hgf.Mt-Park.GA.US
All readers cannot be leaders, but all leaders must be readers. - Harry Truman
From: mirek@unixg.ubc.ca (Miroslaw Piaseczny)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
Subject: ISC 3.2 kernel building problem.
Date: 25 Jan 1993 23:59:02 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

I'm having problems with  building a new kernel on ISC 3.2. When I call
the kconfig program, the following messages show up:


....................................................................
# kconfig
Root Directory (/): 

MAIN MENU

 1) CONFIGURE KERNEL
 2) BUILD A KERNEL
 3) INSTALL A KERNEL

Enter Choice [1-3,q]: 2
executing //etc/conf/bin/idbuild -k 3 -r /
undefined                       first referenced
 symbol                             in file
fdsk_ctl_init                       /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
fdsk_disk_init                      /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
fdsk_command                        /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
fdsk_open                           /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
fdsk_close                          /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
fdc_intr                            /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
fdsk_ioctl                          /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
aha_bdinit                          /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
aha_drvinit                         /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
aha_cmd                             /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
aha_mastint                         /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
aha_diskint                         /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
mcst_bdinit                         /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
mcst_drvinit                        /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
mcst_cmd                            /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
mcst_int                            /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
mces_bdinit                         /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
mces_drvinit                        /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
mces_cmd                            /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
mces_int                            /etc/conf/pack.d/dsk/space.o
ld fatal: Symbol referencing errors. No output written to unix
ERROR: Can not link-edit unix

Could not build unix system
.....................................................................


Can anyone tell me what I am missing? 


Thanks in advance

Mirek Piaseczny
University of British Columbia



Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sys5.r4,comp.unix.sys5.r3,biz.sco.general
From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Re: The Future of ESIX (was Re: PC-clone UNIX Software Buyer's Guide)
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:10:21 GMT

karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) writes:
> Becomes some day your brother is going to get the bright idea that all those
> DOS PCs are actually USEFUL as more than just terminals.  Someone is going
> to want to run a spreadsheet against the data on their "mainframe".

Oh, but they do.  Actually, to be more specific, my brother does.  :)  He
finds it quite easy to Zmodem the file over the serial line -- and it doesn't
take very long, either.  And it's unlikely for there to be anyone else at
the dealership who'd use (or know how to use) a spreadsheet.  At least not
within the lifespan of the system.

> Not to mention that you can then print to the network printers.

Hey, he's got his own little Canon inkjet hooked up to Excel.  And it was
cheaper than a copy of B&W, FTP or Wollongong NFS for his PC.

> They're only worth zero until someone gets a bright idea and wants some of
> those features.  Then they have <real> value.  Even more if you have to go
> buy them again for someone else's OS.

Yes, if you want the features, they have value.  What I'm trying to say is
that if you don't want them and you don't need them, they are *NOT* of any
value.

> Being able to extract data from Progress and then use it directly is a big
> plus.  But heh, with SCO, you get to pay another what?  $1000 ?? to be able
> to link in those PCs?

Those PCs, except for *1* (that's my brother's), run Kermit from the time
they boot to the time they are shut down.  That's it.  Why should I buy
Ethernet cards and TCP/IP+NFS for PCs (remember, that costs you an easy
$250 per seat) when they have no need for it?

> Let's not forget that if you DO go the TCP/IP route you can get rid of the
> Equinox (slow serial) and go with Ethernet instead.

Ethernet's datarate is certainly much higher than 19.2K.  But my experience
is that the average user will see no improvement in response times with
telnet, compared to a 19.2K direct serial connection.  Your mileage may vary,
but I certainly wouldn't pay for network cards, Ethernet cabling and TCP/IP
for the PCs just to run Telnet on ancient 4.77 MHz PCs with no hard disks.
If the TCP/IP and Telnet even fit on a 360K diskette...

[ \tom haapanen    "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca                   "trust the programmer" -- ansi c standard ]
[ waterloo engineering software      "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
From: witr@rwwa.COM (Robert Withrow)
Subject: Re: On knocking .edu folks (was: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors)
Reply-To: witr@rwwa.com
Organization: R.W. Withrow Associates
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 22:41:34 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.222228.19299@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>,

| Do tell us, Robert, how much did *you* (as a non-.edu domain person)
| contribute to MIT since you're using X?  How much money did you send
| the FSF when you installed gcc?  How about when you installed emacs?

Sorry pal.  Nice try, but you loose.  Perhaps I'm stupid, but I've actually
*bought* releases from FSF instead of UUCPing them, or I get them from people
who donate a portion to the FSF.  I buy the printed manuals, instead of
printing them off myself.  I've bought distibutions from MIT for X,
including the manuals. I've sent my $100 to the 386BSD folks.  I also *pay*
for my connectivity to the network...

But thanks for proving my point for me.  It's obvious that the thought
of paying for something is so foreign to you that you honestly can't 
believe that anyone would actually do it.

-- 
 Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 598 4480, Fax: +1 617 598 4430, Net: witr@rwwa.COM
 R.W. Withrow Associates, 21 Railroad Ave, Swampscott MA 01907-1821 USA
From: sjw@cs.umd.edu (Shuo-jen Wu)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
Subject: Tape problem
Date: 22 Jan 93 05:59:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742


  I just bought a IOMEGA Tape Driver (QIC-80 Compatible). I can't use it
on my Consensys UNIX V4.0. The menu of My unix say QIC-80 tape driver from
Coloradoare supported. When I install the qt package, I must choose IRQ 2 or
3 for the Tape. I connect my Tape driver with floppy disk controller. I believe
that neither IRQ 2 nor 3 are used. Does it mean that I must buy a interface 
card for it and then I can use IRQ 2 or 3. 

Any suggestion and experience will be appreciated.

Thanks.

Shuo-jen Wu

Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386