From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: ecsd: The image of "The Catholic Church" Sucks Dead Turkey Buzzards
Organization: The Great Beast 666
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:58:27 GMT

moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com writes:

>>Zane.Wilson@f40.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Zane Wilson) writes:
>>>And there's only *one* problem with all this: the Roman Catholic Church
>>>(in its infinite wisdom) has declared in its new catechism that
>>>belief in astrology is a grave sin. {The term 'grave' replaces 'mortal'
>>>as in 'mortal sin'.}

ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes...
>Well, *I* have no trouble believing that JP-2 would try to squelch anything
>that confounds his religion - and nowadays, that is Just About Everything.
>{material deleted}
>Mr. JP-2 is one of the very last of a long line of reality-denying folks,
>long may he wave as there is any air of denial to make his flag flutter.
>{material deleted}

;I can see why the Pope may wish to forbid his followers serious belief in
;astrology.  The church teaches there is but one God, and not to participate in
;other religions.  Astrology is another religion, or at least a pseudoreligion,
;a direct decendant of the religions of ancient Greece and Rome.  By
;pseudoreligion I mean rather than having a God/gods that demand to be
;worshipped or will reward/punish your soul, the gods of astrology determine
;your fate at birth then ignore you. And the followers of astrology will deny it
;is a religion, they'll even claim they're good Christians or whatever.

;Apparently the pope sees it pretty much this way.

;I expect to be flamed for this, much the same the defenders of any religion
;will flame those who they believe attack it.  Rather than flame, if it is not a
;religion, what is it?  It's not a science, else the scientific method would
;have astrologists study personalities and predict the orbits unseen celestial
;objects, experiments of sorts would be performed how a giant gas bag or rock
;millions of miles away determines one's personality by where they were decades
;ago. 

;-Mike

I'm going to be polite to YOU as a human being.
I've conveniently objectified the Catholic Church as the standard-bearer of
a mindset which is actually a large and complex aggregate of various attitudes
to be found at large in society. I doubt the Church deserves all the abuse
I heap on it - and I *am* sorry to offend someone who holds the views I
attack, that can't be helped - I wish people to remember that, however
strongly they feel through idea X, my attack upon idea X is not an attack
upon them. I know there's not much I can do to avoid conflict arising from
this identification. But - that's not going to stop me from expressing my
point of view.

I think and feel in images - they are my stock-in-trade. I quite often use
extreme imagery to convey a point. If I say "JP-2 is the worst example of a
human being I know of", I am obviously exaggerating - but I *am* expressing
anger, and this is important to me to do. My feeling nature itself is
exaggerated - whatever I feel, I feel very strongly, be that pain or pleasure.

I regard that I have lost much of my younger life at the hands of a society
which believes in the complex of things I *call* the Church's doctrines -
I can forgive that the historical progress of humankind is only now reaching
a stage where individuals seem to matter, but a very great deal that was and
is known about humans is and has been ignored *deliberately* by people in
positions of power and authority - much of that authority was religious until
not so long ago, and religious values and teachings have permeated society
to the point where one does not need to be a Christian in the USA to be
broadly affected by "Christian values" and the attitudes of the people
holding them.

I think it's a fair exercise of my talents, skills and energy to do what I
can to improve society - even if in a negative sense, to eliminate causes
of misery. In my opinion, the aggregate of attitudes I call "the Church"
has damaged humans almost beyond recognition, in certain specific ways,
numbers of which are difficult to perceive, partly due to the inculcation
of that very mindset. I tend to take everything personally - maybe a flaw,
maybe not - knowing that this is true helps me to correct the problems it
causes. I do *very much* take personally the 'loss of life' I've incurred,
at the hand of society, but specifically at the hands of my parents, whose
attitudes were shaped by what I call "the Church" - I will drop "what I call"
and just call it the Church. Since that which gave my parents to damage me
is still operating at large in society - and since I am still encountering
its attitudes in the people I meet, and since I am still therefore being
judged and denied by its standards, and since when I have children, they too
will encounter this negativity - then I think the thing to do is to oppose
'the Church' and reduce or eliminate its effect upon my life and the lives
of all the people I value - and I value most people *just because* they are
human.

The people who hold The Church's values are merely people - they *could*
believe something else as easily - and in a free marketplace of ideas,
I think they would choose to believe something else.

Principle One of The Church, to be DESTROYED:
%%%%% You must believe this what we say, or God Will Not Love You.

Principle Two of The Church, to be DESTROYED:
%%%%% You are not qualified to evaluate or implement your own spiritual
%%%%% nature. You must submit yourself to an external (human) authority.

Principle Three of The Church, to be DESTROYED:
%%%%% The animal nature of humankind is to be feared, suppressed and
%%%%% eliminated.

The first two principles are a means of social control of humans by other
humans. As an American (if for no other reason) I reject this out of hand.
You are free to believe what you wish to believe - but I will not permit
your beliefs to interfere in my life or to damage me, whether your beliefs
encourage or bid you to do so or not. Beyond simple social responsibility,
no other may own me or dictate to me - the rights of the individual are
paramount. I don't care that you espouse a social philosophy which disagrees
with this point of view - I am in no way beholden to you to compromise my
beliefs for the sake of the social compact, and I am in no way beholden to
you even to listen to you - as I choose.

I can play a game of chess with a Nazi skinhead - and he and I would know
that when we get up from the table, we will go out into political life
with extremely different purposes and agendas. Yet in that mere moment of
he and I seeing each other being humans with an agenda - we are bonded,
and we can smile - and *I claim* that that bond itself is the actual truth
of human nature, beyond all the social theories we believe in. We can fight
as animals or we can be nice to each other as animals - all the words we
cloak ourselves in are GARBAGE compared to this underlying truth.

I am an animal which would prefer to be nice than to be nasty - in all the
moments when I still know that I will HATE and ATTACK and FIGHT and cause
INJURY - the question is, to what purpose? Always - self-defense, whether
my perception relative to my actions is correct or not. Therefore, I have
decided that I shall endorse myself in action - I trust myself to do well
by others - or to at least be *trying*, and to be trying to clarify my
perceptions so that I am in fact contributing to my welfare and to the
welfare of the social whole.

My sexual energy has been denied and distorted by "The Church's" influence
upon my life. As a male, and as a person of exaggerated feeling, and as
a highly-sexed person in any case - this loss, this denial, this containment
and refusal of my sexuality - have caused that all the energy which could
not express heretofore, can now be unleashed to a purpose - and that purpose
will be to destroy that which has injured me and all others like me - male
or female - around the very issue of sexuality. If you ever wonder why I am
so extreme in my hatred for The Church - consider that my life-force has
been opposed, leaving me to be a near-suicide for some 30+ years - and due
to a set of beliefs I never wished to have anything to do with. So YES -
I'm intolerant and filled with hate, in reference to That Which Caused This,
and I will gladly release my hatred through expending it in the destruction
of that which Brought It To Be. I will make an open call to others to help
me in this and I am not alone.

If you don't like this image - that I would see it as a calling to destroy
The Church - then consider that I have *never* liked seeing my life injured
by the values of those Of The Church who felt it was *their* mission to
impose their values upon me. I have not asked to be "saved" by the grace
of a God devised by other people; I have not wished to be in any way tainted
by guilt, that I should disadopt or fail to adopt a set of values I cannot
believe in. So for every billboard asking me to Go To Church and Get Right
With God - I will put up a billboard saying Bite The Hand That Hurts You -
Burn Your Church. I have NO PROBLEM with people I regard to be True Christians,
except to disagree with them that one's salvation is to be found anywhere
except within oneself. I shall not intrude upon their life - except to say
that I have an EQUAL share in defining what SHALL BE KNOWN in the PUBLIC
domain - therefore MY values will also see the light of day in plain view of
all, as the Church seems to think it is its right and necessity to do in
its own behalf, while suppressing my attitudes. Therefore I espouse freedom
of thought, freedom of speech, and freedom of sexuality to be interpreted as
the INDIVIDUAL chooses - freedom of action, unfettered by "other people's
moral values". The one thing you are not allowed to do is to stop me from
being myself, to prevent your children from knowing that my way of life is
an alternative that they, of free mind and spirit, could choose in preference
to what You believe. Loathe that I should raise a child who would choose to
become a Catholic, but I have no say in their free will - so be it. Your
children as well might prefer MY values - that life is good, sex is good,
and people are neither Things, nor Born To Suffer - and *I* say, you can
do what you like to contain their minds and hearts, but I shall oppose you
while soever I have the breath to do it - I am an American in the pure sense
in which I understand that - I BELIEVE IN LIBERTY. To thine own self be true;
and if The Church doesn't like that - that's - just - too fucking bad.

Ah, the vulgar language creeps in - guess it's time to end this one, to keep
it pure to its intent.

Hmm - answer to the claim - no dood - astrology is not a religion, that's
your take on it, and I needn't answer you any further in that regard.
Your God is just another archetypal symbolic construct, as are the Gods in
astrology - all Gods are equal, so to speak - just symbols to be manipulated
by the subconscious. *I* know this, but *you* don't. I prefer my philosophy
to yours, because I can be happy about both our lives that we are fulfilling
ourselves as humans, for better or worse. Your philosophy makes you right
and me wrong - not surprising I would reject it.

Your Loyal Servant,
E C S D
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa