HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts)
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
postPath: tittle
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: 25 Jul 92 05:19:19 GMT

I believe that one of the bigger barricades to women pursuing their
happiness is the attitudes of some men.  As long as many men are
raised in a manner that discourages them from having feelings, and
where one of the only emotions allowed to be expressed is rage, they
will have difficulty sharing sympathy and compassion with women.
	Until some men have their souls healed, they will remain
stumbling blocks in the paths of women.  Carrying Sue's analogy
farther, (I really liked it by BTW) suppose the woman and man are
trying to escape from their danger.  Somehow the man has gotten a
little bit ahead but then finds himself getting stuck.  His
floundering prevents her from moving past.  While it is not fair that
his inability is holding her back, and in more danger, she will get
away much quicker if she gives him a helpful push.
	I am suggesting that feminists might achieve their goals more
effectively if they help men get out of their way, in addition.

	On a related note, I was watching peices of Donahue this
morning and the topic/guests were men who went on wild-man weekends.
There seemed to be some resentment from the audience that these men
went away to work on their personal male problems.  Go figure.

	And on a quasi-humorous note, if a business deal were made at
one of these wild-man retreats, would they be legally obliged to allow
women to participate in the future? (To prevent unfair advantage.)

Ken

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From: danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR])
Subject: On a Brother's involvement in a Lesbian Wedding
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA, USA
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:14:16 GMT

Last weekend, my sister "A" got "married" to her sweetie, "N".

The wedding itself was great. I got a speaking part in it. Part of
the service had me introducing A and also N's sister introduced N
for everyone. As the older siblings, we got our "licks" in.

There was more weeping than usual, I think. One older woman said to
me after the service that she hadn't cried like that in church since
she was 12.

There were about 150 people at the service (at least), in addition
to east coasters, a couple also flew in from Rome to be there. My
Dad and brother did not come (they did not "condone" the wedding),
although N's whole family was there.

The service took place at the First Unitarian Church of San Jose,
in San Jose, CA. There were 3 ministers: a "traditional married
couple", both ministers at the Oakland UU Church, and the minister
of the San Jose church who is a lesbian herself. All are
Unitarian-Universalist.

I had never been to a lesbian wedding before and it wasn't any
different than a "regular" wedding. It was important to hear
why they wanted to have a wedding in the first place, though:

Like everyone else they wanted to be accepted and acknowledged
for who they are and to not have to be ashamed of loving someone.

Anyway, as various people intellectually debate what constitutes
feminism: what's good, bad, and ugly, etc., I thought I'd "share"
one way feminism has helped free people and celebrate life.

Dano

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From: muffy@mica.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Date: 25 Jul 92 06:03:36 GMT
	<l6klejINNmu9@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
	<MUFFY.92Jul21122131@remarque.berkeley.edu>
	<l6vd2rINNril@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated

In article <l6vd2rINNril@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> rberlin@birdland.Eng.Sun.COM (Rich Berlin) writes:
>In article <MUFFY.92Jul21122131@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy%remarque.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>Analogy time: I live in a two-bedroom apartment.  I have one bedroom,
>>my roommate has the other, we share the living room and kitchen.  [...]
>The major thing I disagree with about this analogy is that it ignores
>the presence of your roomate.

True.  However, let's say that this particular roommate doesn't seem
to care *what* the house looks like and generally only takes care of
their room, when they feel like it.  So, I feel that I am the only one
working on any of the other parts of the house.

>Generally we're in agreement.  It's not the theory that's the
>problem, it's the practice of maintaining that focus for prolonged
>periods; over time it causes perspectives to rigidify and leads
>people to devalue and invalidate each other's struggles. (This is
>what first inspired the thread, isn't it?)

Actually, what inspired me to start this thread was the claim that it
was sexist for feminists to be more/only interested in issues that
affect women.  It certainly has gone off in a lot of directions since
then...*smile*.

>There is a world of difference between "These causes are important to
>me and I want to see to it that a certain amount of effort is
>directed towards them" vs "Don't bother me with your problems, I have
>my own and they're much worse (or more important) than yours."

Yes, indeed.  And my original article was about how it *is* possible
(we seem to now be talking more about whether it is desirable) to
divide issues up and say "these issues affect women in these ways, so
those are the ones I want to work on."

>>That's odd, because it does not seem that gender *IN*justice is
>>indivisible.
>Good, we see this differently.  Why and how is it divisible?

Well, as an example, look at the times when women couldn't vote.  That
was an injustice to women, but there was no corresponding injustice to
men (ignoring the issue of race, which is not relevant to my example).

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn


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From: danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR])
Subject: Re: Basic Patriarchy Defined
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Definitions R Us
Date: 29 Jul 92 23:59:59 GMT

(Gordon Fitch) writes:

>I thought patriarchal theory was so well-known as not to need
>description.  Surely this newsgroups FAQs suffice?  Very briefly,
>patriarchalism is the theory that men are superior to women, and

Actually, I do not believe this is the case. I believe that
patriarchy means rule by men, i.e., that is the governing/power
structure in a community/society.

Also, some would make the claim that patriarchy implicity recognizes
the superiority of women in certain ways: childbirth, circadian
cycles, intuition, and so forth, which of course must be brought
"under control" of the males.

Dano



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From: kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Gwen Jacob on S.J. Raphae
Date: 30 Jul 1992 20:02:41 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In <Bs7LIr.E9u@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> imprint@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (IMPRINT -- UW's Student Newspaper) writes:

>But not many women would *deny* other women the option of exercising that
>choice.  The comment was made in reference to occasions on which I've seen
> her speak.  In audiences that are overwhelmingly female, the men are always
>the most vocal and hostile - "threatened" was my interpretation; you're 
>welcome to draw your own.

I would like to point out that it was another woman who made the complaint
that got Gwen arrested.

Ken


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From: judith@super.super.org (Judith D. Schlesinger)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Olympics and Exclusion of Women
Date: 30 Jul 1992 01:26:02 GMT
Organization: Supercomputing Research Center (Bowie, MD)
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

The equestrian events are mixed sex--both for the horses and the riders :-).

I can't think of any others, though.

Judith



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From: holzman@fnalo.fnal.GOV ("Daniel B. Holzman")
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:50:25 GMT
Organization: FERMILAB

In article <9207301551.AA15575@titian.helios.nd.edu>,
slarsen@titian.helios.nd.EDU (susan larsen) writes:
> Another thing I learned about volunteer recruitment is that the
> recruiter must be able to answer the question "What's in it for me?"
> Okay, so if anyone here wants to redirect my energies toward working
> for their goals, I ask you what's in it for me?  In considering a
> response to that question, bear in mind my posting about walking in
> the woods.  Obviously, I feel that women have some catching up to do
> on their own before we are fully equal to the task of attacking
> "men's" problems.  That is my bias, can you convince me that I am
> wrong?

The question, as I understand it, is "What is in it for women that
they should work on men's issues?"  Here goes:

More men taking an active role in their children's upbringing means:

- less men expecting women to do it alone, or to balance it and their
careers (Anyone see a potential for a glass ceiling vanishing through
this?)

- more people pushing for fair and equitable parental leave
regulations.

- more men payuing their child support. (census figures show a direct
relationship between how much activity a father takes in his
children's upbringing and the likelyhood that he will pay child
support, maxing out at about 90% for fathers with full shared
parenting.)

More men being emotionally whole means less men beating, raping, and
otherwise abusing women.

More women taking an interest in men's issues means more men taking an
interest in women's issues.

Shall I go on?

> And, finally, I learned that once recruited, volunteers need to be
> recognized for their efforts.  The reward factor.  Feminism offers me
> the reward of greater control over my life, a more solid economic
> position in the community ....  so what rewards are available if I
> join your team?

See above.

--
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.

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From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: one for the "No Comment" file
Date: 22 Jul 1992 18:20:38 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

Actually, when I saw this "Just For Men" commercial (during the
Democratic Convention), all I could think was that George Bush's hair
is taller and browner than it was a month or two ago, and maybe that's
how he does it...  

Maybe that's why it ran when it did?  ;)

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---


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From: maxtal@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (John MAX Skaller)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: are women and men equal? (was Re: Why She Took My Name)
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:11:33 GMT
Organization: MAXTAL P/L C/- University Computing Centre, Sydney

In article <14c9lfINNhe9@agate.berkeley.edu> heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes:
>In article <149es8INN7ir@agate.berkeley.edu> maxtal@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (John MAX Skaller) writes:
>>
>>	Furthermore in the social context the have effective
>>	power to control their sex lives where as men do not.
>>
>
>I simply don't buy this. Is the assumption that a man, somehow, cannot
>control his sex life? How is it that a woman has more control over her
>sex life?

	Evolution.

	Male and female sexuality is different.

	Women have to live with the consequences of sex (children)
longer than men (at least 9 months longer).

>It seems (if I follow some of the logic I've heard from other
>feminists) that what is really implied here is that women have more
>control over their sex "drives", which plays in to the popular myths
>of female superiority already bandied about in this bandwith (i.e.
>women do not commit violence, women cannot rape, etc.). I don't buy
>it in any case, but if I have misunderstood something here, please
>enlighten me.

	There's no issue of moral superiority.

	Perhaps the men and women I know are all freaks.
But, at risk of overgeneralising, women seem to need intimacy
for arousal to a greater extent than men. For example.
I really don't want to make a catalog of differences and start
a flame war!

	Suffice it to say, it is more often the female
that has the choice of whether to have sex or not, in
particular where the two people in question do not
have an existing relationship.

	Witness the professed advantage of Wedding rings
mentioned by some in this group at keeping men at bay.

--
;----------------------------------------------------------------------
        JOHN (MAX) SKALLER,         maxtal@extro.ucc.su.oz.au
	Maxtal Pty Ltd, 6 MacKay St ASHFIELD, NSW 2131, AUSTRALIA
;--------------- SCIENTIFIC AND ENGINEERING SOFTWARE ------------------

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From: goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves)
Subject: Re: "I am Catwoman, hear
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:56:27 GMT

histlib@erich.triumf.ca writes...
HI> I am SICK TO DEATH of portrayals of women which show that we can be
HI> every bit as fucking macho as any man. Of course we can. But do we
HI> want to?
HI>      We have been socialized differently from them-cooperation rather
HI> than competition, etc.--and our way is better. I,m hoping (I realise
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are you claiming the moral superiority of women, Mary?

Methinks you doth protest too much.  While it is true that men have
generally been socialised to compete, unlike the general case for
women, I do not think that *either* method is better.  They are
DIFFERENT.

Indeed, there are cases where the competitive instinct IS better (eg.,
trying to survive at work will backfire if you use try to cooperate
with someone who is attempting to cut your throat and has NO INTENTION
of cooperation...), while there are also cases where cooperation is
better (ie., trying to avoid a war).

Too much of either one of these strategies would be a fatal mistake
for society.  What we need is a balance which attempts to strive for
complete recognition of situations where a given method will work
best.  Currently, it is *very* difficult to know whether competition
or cooperation will work in a given situation.


HI> that this is almost certainly a vain hope for the near future) that
HI> we'll see some male characters who can be as intelligent and
HI> non-violent as any woman.

Try the movie portrayals of Gandhi, Steven Biko, Martin Luther King,
Jaime Escalante, John Lennon, Harvey Milk...

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                    "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * On a clear disk you can seek forever

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From: tittle@alexandre-dumas.ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:21:31 GMT

In <1992Jul29.191026.7735@ucc.su.OZ.AU> maxtal@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (John MAX Skaller) writes:

>	Most women seem to DEMAND an exclusive relationship
>in return for sexual favours. That is their traditional power
>base in modern society.

>	If you (female reader) dont believe this:
>how many times have you had sexual offers from men? Perhaps
>even "more than enough"?? Harassment?

>	Now ask male friends the same question.

>	Men go to parties to meet prospective sexual partners,
>as do women. (Amoung other reasons, of course :-)

>	Invariably (well, almost), it is the woman who has the choice.

>[Note: I'm not talking about forming a relationship here:
>finding suitable partners is probably just as hard for both sexes]

Now, none of this would be the result of social demands that men be
sexually insatiable and women sexually conservative?  That men are
*expected* to seek out sex whenever they can, however they can?  That
they're so rapacious that women had better be as conservative and
careful as they can?  (Nah, too easy...)

What do people call a woman who goes after men or readily agrees to
sexual favors?  What do they call a man who is sexually conservative
or doesn't enjoy women?

And since it is women who are the overwhelming targets of rape, I'd
question your assessment of where the "power" is...

[As for demanding an exclusive relationship, the appalling number of
husbands, boyfriends, ex-husbands, and ex-boyfriends who kill "their"
women, or stalk them, or otherwise make life a miserable hell because
they left them, I'd say that the demand "you be faithful to me" is
made on both sides...]

I'm not sure why you think witholding sex forms a power base.  That is
predicated on the assumption that frequent and unlimited sex is the
norm.  You could have as easily argued that giving or forcing sex
forms a power base if you assume that infrequent sex is the norm.

Throwing out questions and points to ponder,
--Cindy

--
	"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what
	feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist
	whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a
	doormat, or a prostitute."  -- Rebecca West, 1913
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From: dwm@osf.org
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Date: 21 Jul 1992 19:09:18 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <9207161850.AA19325@mica.berkeley.edu> muffy@mica.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>Not to mention a definition of "feminist."  *smile*.  For example, my
>version of feminism includes working on the problems of both men and
>women, just with a recognition (or belief) that women's problems are
>worse and that I therefore want to apply more energy to those problems.
>I do not treat men and women differently, just the various societal
>problems which involve men, women, or both.
>
	Aha!  So you admit you're not a feminist at all:
	you're a humanist!    Welcome aboard!  8-)
	A sense of perspective is a wonderful thing.

	dave
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dave Mitchell	dwm@osf.org	uunet!osf!dwm      (617) 621-8963
    Open Software Foundation,  11 Cambridge Center,  Cambridge, MA  02142


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