HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: buckmr@vccsouth19.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: new newsgroup proposal:talk.politics.motss
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:02:57 GMT

Bryan J. Blumberg <bjb@macsch.com> writes:


>About six months ago--or perhaps more--I was in the center of a heated
>debate on soc.motss regarding my habit of posting the texts of anti-gay
>fundamentalist Christian newsletters.  Since soc.motss is supposed to
>be a queer-safe space, many people's arguments were quite justified that
>my posting should have been kept out of soc.motss.

>However, there is a siginificant demand for politically involved queers
>to have access to the texts from our antagonists, so I continued to
>post the stuff here on soc.motss.

>I am therefore, very much in favor of the creation of either
>soc.motss.politics
>or talk.politics.motss.  Since I'm in favor of creating a queer ghetto,
>I would prefer to create soc.motss.politics over talk.politics.motss,
>in the hopes that fewer of our antagonists would read it.

I vote for soc.motss.politics!

Is someone going to try for an official vote in news.lists or wherever?


-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735.  ***Clinton-Gore '92***
vox:(518)-276-8910 fax:(518)-276-6920 buckmr@rpi.edu buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet
0.5% of the U.S. population owns 48.4% of the assets. 1% owns 61.8% and 10%
owns 91.7%. -- Source: Arthur B. Kennickell,_ Demographics & Household Savings_
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Organization: Flame Wars R Us
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 09:32:46 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
|jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap) writes:

|>Read the RFD and CFV that are posted to your group.  Read the post that
|>has third-grade English in its Subject that says the group is going
|>to be renamed.  If you can't be bothered, don't bother me.

|You mean...

|Subject: CFV: rec.music.makers.* reorg

|Where does it say in that subject that "rec.music.synth" is to be renamed?

	Where does it say in the subject line that 
rec.music.makers.percussion was going to be made? Or that alt.guitar
was going to be moved? We've been through this before Dave.

|>Please don't bother to say it's broken if you don't have _concrete_
|>suggestions for improvement.  You'll just (help) generate flamewars.

|He can say it's broken all he likes. I'll listen.

	Yea, and voth of you can go down in the annals of net history
as net.idiots. Hope you enjoy.

Cousin It                                         cuz@cs.brandeis.edu
           Special Productions Director and Engineer
WBRS 100 FM, Waltham Ma.                   WBRS@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
All Genre Music Programming            Free Live Music-4 times weekly
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:16:23 GMT

In article <scs.724022766@hela.iti.org> scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)  
writes:
> For the record, I would support a change to the rules which
> makes it harder to make a group but would permit groups of
> wide interest to success.  This proposal would do the job;
> should it survive the call for flames I would vote for it.  

I agree, and would add that the formulae should be
different for group creations vs. renames. These are
very different acts with very different consequences,
and applying the same criteria to both seems incorrect to
me. It should be a lot harder to reorganize groups than to
create new ones. While creating a new group in and of
itself can affect the content of existing groups, reorgs
have additional impact and I feel they should be weighed
differently. 

If there is no sliding scale, at least the scales for the
two cases should be different. 

> Any proposal which contains a fixed number will decline
> in utility as the net continues to grow.  I would suggest
> replacing the 200 constant with some variable that will
> grow as the size of the net increases.  How about 1/5 of the
> number of groups in the canonical heirarchies.    

I agree. I'm not certain that it should be tied to the
number of groups though. Perhaps a tie to estimated net
readership size might be more appropriate. In the case of
reorgs, some tie to the estimated readership size of the
directly-affected (would be renamed groups) would seem
appropriate. 

While I think this is a valid concern, it will complicate
the process of running a vote, and you can expect a lot of
flack from people that are quite pleased with the way
things currently are.  

Gordon
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 12 Dec 92 07:29:02 GMT
Organization: Escape from Blacksburg, VA

sa.gov> <8099@lib.tmc.edu>
Organization: Dave Hayes Fan Club (Southwestern Virginia Chapter)

In article <8099@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:

>
>Hey, Joel: if you can convince Dave to shut up, I may just forgive you the
>uncalled-for nuclear flamage you've sent my way... sacrifice for a good cause
>and all that.

Uncalled for?  The seventy-eight people who've mailed me since the Zippy post
to congratulate me on excellent flamage seem to disagree, Jay.  Some of the
more recent correspondents inform me that they want to keep copies of the post
around for people to read as an example of what a good flame should be.  You've
made me famous!  Thanks ever so muchly.

(I feel like someone at the lectern accepting a gaudy gold statuette, thanking
the little people who made it all possible... and YOU, Jay, are a VERY little
person indeed.  Thank you ever so much.)
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 12 Dec 92 01:33:54 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston


Hey, Joel: if you can convince Dave to shut up, I may just forgive you the
uncalled-for nuclear flamage you've sent my way... sacrifice for a good cause
and all that.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button
From: dali@stein.u.washington.edu (David A. Lee)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.autos.vw reorganization
Date: 19 Dec 92 08:11:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Dec19.081125.6600
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

As an owner of a 1970 Squareback, I could really care less about
some of the issues posted by owners of GTi's who are all obsessed
with the chip in their computer or how fast they went around some
corner.
 
All of the articles on the heater recalls, anti-freeze, things falling
off three months after the new car was purchased, all of these things
are completely meaningless to me.
 
I get into my car and drive it.  I worry about my mechanic dying.  He
is the only one in this area who can do an honest engine-rebuild.  I
worry about rust, and how to fix or replace my clock.  I drive 60-65
on the freeway.  The car has never failed me.
 
Air cooled owners are driving near-antiques.  We are enthusiasts, fanatics
some may say.  Water cooled VWs are VWs yes, but they don't turn
our heads like air cooled VWs do.  I enjoy VW-spotting, the sight
of a well-kept Karmann Ghia or Split/Oval can make my day.  A
Rabbit, Dasher (???), or Jetta is just another car on the road
to us.  Sure, they are good cars, who would argue with that?  But
there is a different philosophy that we air cooled drivers live by
from the water cooled drivers.  We have different thoughts and feelings
about our buggies.  No offense, I am not saying that we are better,
just different.
 
I think that if people want to read both,
they can subscribe to both.  But I am getting tired of reading
through 33 articles a day, and only seeing two or three that pertain
to air cooled VWs.
 
Thank you.
 
David Lee
-- 
"There are hundreds of tiny balls in every machine, and hundreds of machines
in every pachinko parlour, and a pachinko parlour on every block in every
town in Japan; so there are billions of little balls falling forever, like a
chromium-plated hailstorm that never melts."  - from "Clive James in Japan" 
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Soc.Motss.* / Automoderation.
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 10:31:42 GMT

In article <1h0dpbINNfp@smurf.sti.com> dgreen@smurf.sti.com
(Dan R.  Greening) writes:

O spectre from the distant past!

>[Jess (Anderson), Bob Donahue, Robert Coren, and Paul Asente suggest 
> automoderation to get rid of most anti-gay traffic in soc.motss, limiting to 
> NON cross-posted articles.]

Not quite right, old bean; I had no part in an
auto-moderation scheme.  Actually, I oppose it.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Date: 13 Dec 92 20:18:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: gaia.1gg5q1INNfn0
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <1992Dec12.191623.7108@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>It should be a lot harder to reorganize groups than to
>create new ones. 

It should be just the opposite.

A vote to create a new newsgroup is an indication of two things --
reasonable name and enough interest.

A vote to rename a group is only a vote on the name.

>While creating a new group in and of
>itself can affect the content of existing groups, reorgs

do not. Renaming a group, in and of itself, has no effect on the
contents of that group.

>While I think this is a valid concern, it will complicate
>the process of running a vote, and you can expect a lot of
>flack from people that are quite pleased with the way
>things currently are.  

Opposing opinions != flack. Labeling the replies to your posting as
"flack" even before you see them is a Hayesism which makes you look
foolish, and sets yourself up as having the One True Opinion.
Organization: Robotics Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.boats,misc.fitness,rec.sport.olympics,rec.sport.misc,rec.boats.paddle
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:23:08 -0500 
From: David Greene <dg1v+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.sport.rowing

I'm all for the idea!   Are there any USRA officials on the net? 
Perhaps they can set up something like an online version of Rowing Ratio.

-David (Kaschper the friendly ghost)

Newsgroups: news.groups,talk.politics.misc,soc.motss
From: Bryan J. Blumberg <bjb@macsch.com>
Subject: Re: new newsgroup proposal:talk.politics.motss
X-Xxdate: Sun, 13 Dec 92 11:51:04 GMT
Organization: Systems Integration Branch
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d13
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 19:57:05 GMT

In article <Bz5xvK.69I@hico2.westmark.com> Allan Kugel,
allan@hico2.westmark.com writes:
> soc.motss.politics
> talk.politics.motss
> alt.activism.motss

About six months ago--or perhaps more--I was in the center of a heated
debate on soc.motss regarding my habit of posting the texts of anti-gay
fundamentalist Christian newsletters.  Since soc.motss is supposed to
be a queer-safe space, many people's arguments were quite justified that
my posting should have been kept out of soc.motss.

However, there is a siginificant demand for politically involved queers
to have access to the texts from our antagonists, so I continued to
post the stuff here on soc.motss.

Some people suggested that I should post to alt.politics.homosexuality,
but I steadfastly refused because a significant number of the people
who wanted to receive my posts complained that alt groups were not carried
at their sites.

I am therefore, very much in favor of the creation of either
soc.motss.politics
or talk.politics.motss.  Since I'm in favor of creating a queer ghetto,
I would prefer to create soc.motss.politics over talk.politics.motss,
in the hopes that fewer of our antagonists would read it.

========================================
Bryan  J. Blumberg, The MacNeal-Schwendler Corporation
815 Colorado Boulevard, Los Angeles, California  90041-1777
(213) 259-4914, B_BLUMBERG@MACSCH.COM
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:54:43 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee):
>Usenet documentation, as is, is more of an excuse to pummel users with
>"why didn't you read the documentation?" than a true information source.

1. The documentation _is_ an information source.
2. Some people do ask "why didn't you read the documentation?".

Both items are true.  Neither of them is more true than the other.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Organization: Rice University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:57:03 GMT

In article <Bz48CF.Ewv@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleen S. Davis) writes:
>In short, the response to your proposal is "Who will propose the RFD?
>The people who think the vote was fine don't see the need, and those
>who think the vote was bad object to accepting the passed vote on
>principle."  

I'm about ready to formally propose the darn thing just to bring the
issue to an end.  I think the original vote was fine, but maybe if we
had a new vote on changing the name back everyone would shut up.  (Do I
really think anything will cause everyone to shut up on Usenet?  When
hell freezes over probably.  Maybe most people would shut up?)  Every
time I think I've got this thing in my killfile a new Subject line
comes up, like this one.  If I weren't going on vacation soon I think
I would.  Maybe if this discussion is still going on when I get back I
will.

	Cathy
-- 
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
Why you should recycle bytes:  "Believe it or not, most deleted bytes currently
find their way straight into the Internet refuse stream, often to turn up in
postings to Usenet, or worse, OSI standards documents!"  -- Peter Deutsch
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 03:01:22 GMT

>     (b) 5 votes without names issued from non-personal accounts:
>     vida@chop.isca.uiowa.edu (VIDA Telnet Account)
>
> ... I know Vida personally.  Not that it matters, her vote ought to
> have been counted.

That was a No vote, so make it 730-151 if you like.  The above was all
I had to go on and it looked to me as though VIDA was an organizational
acronym of some kind.
 
>     582. Shub        cdash@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Charles M. Shub)
> 			/DUPLICATE/ Charles Shub <cdash@moet.cs.colorado.edu>

> ... way to go, University of Iowa.  Vote early, vote often.

Charles Shub voted twice from his accounts at different sites because the
auto-ack didn't reach him the first time.  This is one of the cases that
I mentioned in at the top of the results report.  Perhaps there was some
problem with all auto-acks to uiowa.edu, and this led to several people
there each voting from different accounts.

Then again, maybe it was vote fraud. :-)

> ... thanks for a well-run vote, Mark.

You're welcome.

-- 
Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com
	"Have you ever heard [my honesty] questioned?"
	"I never even heard it mentioned."	-- Every Day's a Holiday

This article is in the public domain.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: IGNORE DAVE HAYES!
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:35:40 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF):
>If everyone stopped replying to his posts, what would he reply to?

Words of wisdom.

To ignore Dave takes self-control; but the rewards are worth it.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
From: dct@odin.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David C. Tuttle)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Don't mess with the folklore people
Date: 16 Dec 1992 22:01:56 GMT

starfish@stein.u.washington.edu (Sarah Skovronsky) writes:
>dct@odin.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David C. Tuttle) writes:
>>
>>But seriously, if comp.society.folklore had any traffic at all, this
>>whole vote thing probably wouldn't have happened.  So throw us a bone
>>once in a while, OK?
>
>...Do you have any particular opposition to telnetting to a
>site which does carry alt groups?  As has been posted in this group,
>there are various sites which allow just about anyone to call up and
>read news.

If that was posted during the flame war, than I didn't see it -- I
have lost all interest in following flame wars.  Life is too short to
spend wading through such postings, and I don't need the irritation.

And I will admit that I *do* have some opposition to having to telnet
to another site just to read particular news groups.  It's not worth
the hassle to me to have yet another computer account that would be
redundant in every other sense.  Also, as a system administrator, I
feel sympathy pains for anyone who tries to offer a "free" Internet
account to anybody, and the hassles that causes (I would never
volunteer to administer or support such a system because of the
overhead and potential security problems).  And c.s.f is already there
for all of us to use and enjoy, if only it would get some attention --
perhaps a digest of the "best" of alt.folklore.computers (which would
also accomodate those with mail but no Usenet access)?

I voted "yes" to unmoderating c.s.f because I support the idea that
well-defined, unobjectionable newsgroups with sizeable followings
belong in the mainstream.  It appeals to my sense of aesthetics.  But,
as always in Usenet, when aesthetics fights precedent, precedent wins
just about every dang time.

--
David C. Tuttle, Biomathematics   ----> dct@odin.mda.uth.tmc.edu <----
University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center         (713) 792-2606
Mail Stop 237, 1515 Holcombe Boulevard, Houston, TX  77030-4096
Today's anagram of "David Charles Tuttle" is:  ADULT CHATTEL DRIVES
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.baltic/balticum
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:28:22 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1gavtuINN7j3@pongo.West.Sun.COM>, Richard.Mathews@West.Sun.COM 
(Richard M. Mathews) writes:

> I understand the problems with linking the newsgroup and mailing list.
> For me, though, reading news is much more convenient than reading mail.
> Can we at least have a one-way gateway, with BALT-L articles regularly
> posted to the newsgroup (perhaps as a digest)?  Then I could cancel my
> BALT-L suscription and just stick with news.
> 
>      Richard M. Mathews			Lietuva laisva = Free Lithuania
> 					Brivu Latviju  = Free Latvia
> Richard.Mathews@West.Sun.COM		Eesti vabaks   = Free Estonia
 					        WE  DID  IT!!!


Not all of the information that BALT-L contains would be interesting
to majority of newsgroup readers (like the discussion on Baltic fonts).

But the news releases like News From Lithuania and Diena News from
Latvia and Estonian news (that come through E(stonian)-list) should
be sent to the Baltic newsgroup regularly (and, perhaps, the RFE/RL
reports on Baltic affais).

with best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Date: 17 Dec 1992 21:14:07 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1gp4jpINNqp7@nigel.msen.com> emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti) writes:
>Jay, if you are really interested in reading alt.folklore.computers,
>there are several opportunities open to you.

[eight good suggestions deleted]

>In any case these are efforts which you can take on individually, on
>your own initiative, and that you anyone with even a small amount of
>talent, money, creativity, or stubbornness (pick one) can do.  I would
>guess that you are more than up to doing it.  None of them would require
>anyone else's consent - just go and read the group!

I agree that there are avenues that folks can pursue to get access to the
group.

Where I disagree with the hysterics of the alt.diehards is that over a quarter
of the net should have to go through those gyrations to read what, by all
accounts, is a very good group.

Still, they managed to generate a large turnout, and have won their point.
Whether or not I manage to come in from the cold, just remember that a quarter
of the net is still out there, shivering.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
 "Brought to you by the letters O, S, and by the number 2." -- Mike Levis
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Summary: Straw vote for native newsgroup to determine a concensus
Keywords: native, straw vote, concensus
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:31:40 GMT

CALL FOR A STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP

Please write to the following address and vote for the name
of a native newsgroup:

			idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu

When you vote, please leave your name and also spell the name
of your suggestion with care.  I will take it down and record
it exactly as you vote.

The vote will begin tonight, December 14th, and will end one
week from today, December 21st.  The only purpose of this 
Straw Vote is to determine whether there is a concensus on 
a name.  If there is no clear concensus, we can continue 
discussing the merits of different names.  If there is a concensus,
perhaps we can move on to a discussion of the charter.

The following names have been suggested, but you are in no way
bound to vote on any of them:

soc.culture.native
soc.culture.native.american
soc.culture.native-america
soc.culture.indigenous
soc.culture.indigenous.american
soc.culture.aboriginal
soc.culture.aboriginal.american
soc.culture.amerindian
soc.culture.amerind
soc.culture.american.indian
soc.culture.first.americans

These have been the main suggestions.  There have been others.
Thank you for taking the time to vote on this issue and for
helping us to decide on a name for this important newsgroup.
Newsgroups: news.groups