From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Pakistan
Date: 23 Dec 1992 13:04:59 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Dec22.215006@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>
>
>
>Iqbal again ?!! :)
>

Of course :) :)

After all, that's how some one who have never read
Iqbal should be treated.

>
>A leap into darkness is foolish too. 
>	Being led like sheep is stupid too, right?
>

Precisely. That's why I am encouraging to take our own insight
 and make it a new reality. If others could have done it. Why
  cant we?
>
>Then he was a poor judge of people; a great poet but a poor leader.

NO. He was not. I will tell you some time else that there
are people who have indeed become the inheritors of his trust.
And they will indeed not only fulfill, but exceed his expectations!
>
>Doesn't answer the question. Why is a *political state* required to establish
>an "islamic" society ?

Answer is very simple. Islam is a DEEN, not a religion.
It has "laws" and "regulations" that need the political instrument
of the "state" for their enforcement. As Islam is not simply
some obscure set of rituals that can be practiced in isolation
it needs some political expression. Remember need for the Medinite
State?
>> 
>> My pleasure: [This reminds me of the Jews of Madinah who thought
>                     ^^^^^^^
>> 		that by resorting to their own law they will be
>> 		saved by the punishment of the Prophet (pbuh).]
>
>Well you aren't averse to playing the comparison game yourself, are you ? :)

The similarity of resorting to the decision by the book was too great 
to pass over. For interest, let me tell you the whole episode.

In one of the wars with the Meccans, one of the Jewish tribes of
Medinah was found to have broken the treaty with Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).
When the prophet (pbuh) asked them what should be their punishment,
the Jews thought that may be if we ask for the judgement from our
own book and our own Rabbis the decision would be more lenient and
and more in our favor. On this premise they asked Prophet (Pbuh) to
be treated by their own book and by their own Rabbi. The Rabbi Judge
after going through the book of the Jews made the decision that:
all the males of the tribe be killed and 
all females and children be made slave!

>
>So what does this tell us? Kill and drive out people who are not called muslims
>from their lands ? 

Well, for that you need to read the whole of  Quran. The Quranic
verses were simply given by me, because the post explicitly mentioned
not to go by Hadiths. As you know, Hadiths of the prophet explain
where and when to apply such verses.

My reason for citing such verses was to impress that Hadith have necessarily
to be used in conjunction with Quran, because Quran explicitly asks
us to do so in atleast 9 places. 
>
>If that is what is being preached in the Quran, 
>then it surely isn't a book of God.

First you asked to be 
given proof from the book of your own choice. Indeed you screamed
for it. Then, you turn away. 

It seems that Jews of Medinah must have felt the same way after
the verdict was announced from their own book, on their own
choice, from their own Rabbi!!!!!!!!!!!

Moral of this exchange:

Don't ever try to go by things of which you know not.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan