HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: che238n@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Making Aluminium powder
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:23:50 +1000
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

In article <BtuA36.5tD@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>, fernee@newton.physics.uq.oz.au  writes:
> In article <1992Aug31.133341.89938@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>, che238n@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au writes:
> |> In article <13150023@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM>, bame@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM (Paul Bame) writes:
> |> > In rec.pyrotechnics, fernee@newton.physics.uq.oz.au (Mark Fernee) writes:
> |> > 
> |> >> I have met a person who claims that an Aluminium clamp was
> |> >> reduced to powder when left in an ultra-sonic bath for 
> |> >> 24 hrs. 
> |> > 
> |> >> Has anyone else used this technique to make Al powder?
> |> >> If so, how succesful is it?
> 
> |> 
> |> Aluminium powder can be made by electrolysis.
> |> 
> |> Get a strip of thick aluminium foil and connect to the positive terminal of a
> |> 12V power pack (aligator clip). Connect some clean copper foil to the negative
> |> terminal in the same way. Place the two electrodes into a beaker of 2M nitric
> |> acid such that they do not touch and the aligator clips are above the surface. 
> |> Switch on. After a while the aluminium electrode should start to dissolve and
> |> the copper electrode should start to discolour. When the aluminium electrode
> |> has completely dissolved there should be a coating of aluminium powder on the
> |> copper electrode. Scrape it off and dry in a dessicator or oven. Take care as
> |> the solution will become quite hot. Also beware of the evolution of hydrogen
> |> and oxygen gas, keep away from flames. There is no need to immediately remove
> |> the copper electrode, just replace the aluminium electrode the keep going.
> |> Beware of using the "hard" aluminium foil as some contain magnesium which will
> |> contaminate the Al powder.
> |> 
> |> I have used this method to prepare copper, aluminium, zinc and lead powder.
> |> 
> |> David B.
> 
> This sounds good, but extremely fine powdered Al is easily and cheaply
> obtained from a large art supply wholesaler/retailer, as can copper
> powder. This powder is so fine that it even penetrates a toxic dust
> mask. It is used for making metalic paints. However, I have not found
> a supplier for zinc or magnesium powder.
> 
> What would you use lead powder for (he asks innocently)?

> Mark

Why climb a mountain? Because it's there.
Why did a prepare lead powder? Because I had some lead and decided to try
electrolysis. I did not have a need for it, 

If anyone can think of a use for lead powder please let me know. Meanwhile we
can all stockpile lead powder in case someone thinks of a good use for it. :)

I have not yet tried iron as I do not have the pure metal. It should work.
I would like to try magnesium for obvious reasons.

David B.

P.S. It also works with silver.

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: pierson@cimnet.enet.dec.com (dave pierson)
Subject: PGI Con (was Re: Rocket Fuel question)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 23 AUG 92 15:53:25 EST

In article <1992Aug20.140942.23181@b30.ingr.com>, mordes@b30.ingr.com (Tony
Mordeszewski) writes, in part:

>Had a great time at the convention, especially running out in the desert
>putting out ROCKET FIRES! :)
>At this point I'd like to nominate Mr. Dave Pierson to head up the class "C"
>shooting at Fargo! Can you still hear the little rugrats holler "FIRE IN THE 
>HOLE!"...
	Will be there.  As to Class C, THAT seems unlikely.
	'Umble apologies for missing the net.party at Bill's.  Stuff (as they
	say) Happened.

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
200 Forest St			|I am the NRA.
Marlboro, Mass	
01752				pierson@cimnet.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
From: paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:15:32 GMT
Organization: Taniwha Systems Design

In article <1992Aug24.160400.13265@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:

>Yeah. Did you know that Bic got a new nickname at the convention? How about
>"Firestarter"?  :-)

"Firestarter" is of course a brand name for a black-powder F (or is it G?)
model rocket motor which deliberatly spits sparks  .....  

These days there is another company called Rocketflite making a similar
product (Fs and Gs) called 'Silver Streaks'

	Paul

-- 
Paul Campbell    UUCP: ..!mtxinu!taniwha!paul     AppleLink: CAMPBELL.P

	How do you tell when George Bush is lying?
	You read his lips ...
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: fernee@newton.physics.uq.oz.au 
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Organization: The University of Queensland
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 08:17:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.035945.4541@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Jeremiah.Blatz@dartmouth.edu (Jeremiah Blatz) writes:
|> In article <BtpC2M.AxJ@rice.edu>
|> stevens@horta.rice.edu (Richard Stevens) writes:
|> 
|> > If one wnats do design a small black powder model rocket engine, similar
|> > to the Estes type design, what could one use to slow down the burn
|> > rate and make the fuel less dangerous? How does one get the powder
|> > into a solid form?
|> 
|> Well, I was phucking around the other night and it seems that sugar is
|> a really good inhibitor (if you don't mind the smoke). Also, you can
|> melt gunpowder *IN AN ELECTRIC HEATER, NOT OVER A BURNER* and pour it
   ==============

|> into your rocket casing.
|> 
|> Jeremiah


What do you mean, a black powder/sugar mixture? Surely a KNO3/sugar 
mixture would be better. I have never heard of anyone melting black 
powder. Also how do you stop the rocket container causing the 
molten fuel to prematurely solidify?

Mark.
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: buda@star.enet.dec.com (Mark A. Buda)
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:16:10 GMT


In article <1992Aug20.140942.23181@b30.ingr.com>, mordes@b30.ingr.com (Tony Mordeszewski) writes...
>Hey Bic! 
>Had a great time at the convention, especially running out in the desert
>putting out ROCKET FIRES! :)

I nominate Bic as the rocket man with wih the most fires started!  I lost count
after about 10 or 15!!!  I always wanted to be a fire dacner in the middle of the
desert at midnight!  I still remember fireworks going off at 2:30 in the morning
and the big ground bombs too.  

>At this point I'd like to nominate Mr. Dave Pierson to head up the class "C"
>shooting at Fargo! Can you still hear the little rugrats holler "FIRE IN THE 
>HOLE!"...

Yep, Dave loved every minute of it and kept the little critters (and sometime 
big critters) at bay.


Try:

b30!ingr!uunet!dec!enet!star!buda

or

...!decwrl!star.enet.dec.com!buda

or 

b30!ingr!uunet!decwrl!enet!star!buda

or

b30!ingr!uunet!decwrl!star!buda

	- mark

buda@star.enet.dec.com
...!decwrl!star.enet.dec.com!buda
buda%star.enet.dec.com
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Date: 26 Aug 92 17:12:23 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

jac54@cas.org writes:
: 
: 	A couple of points on patent law.  A patent can only be
: 	granted for a full disclosure of the invention.  If there is
: 	a patent, it should describe the propellant fully and accurately.
: 	The only right holding the patent gives you is the right to
: 	prevent others using the invention and you only have this right
: 	for 17 years from date of issue of the patent.  So, if those
: 	motors are >17 yrs old, there may not be a problem.  Of course,
: 	if patent law were that simple, there wouldn't be patent
: 	attorneys.

The point being - most patents do not include everything. If the patent
were, for example, the original use of aluminum in the propellant as a
fuel - then the formulation would include the major components including
the aluminum. However, there would be such things listed as "binders" or
"burn rate modifiers" or "catalysts". These would most likely not be
detailed.

Bill
From: steve.woodward@betabbs.newton.ma.us (Steve Woodward) 
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: ROCKETS AND FUEL QUESTION
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:18:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Beta BBS -=- Newton MA -=- (617)244-7053
Reply-To: steve.woodward@betabbs.newton.ma.us (Steve Woodward) 

-> Also, has anybody made cast composite fuel rockets with polyester
-> resins (ie fibreglass resin). We have some KClO4 but would prefer to
-> use NH4NO3 if it can be sensitised. If someone knows of an

        If you're asking for a way to get NH4NO3, I belive you can find
it in those instant cold packs (the ones where you break the water
bubble). Hope that helps...
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:03:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Aug27.160354.26401
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell) writes:
: In article <1992Aug24.160400.13265@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: 
: >Yeah. Did you know that Bic got a new nickname at the convention? How about
: >"Firestarter"?  :-)
: 
: "Firestarter" is of course a brand name for a black-powder F (or is it G?)
: model rocket motor which deliberatly spits sparks  .....  
: 
: These days there is another company called Rocketflite making a similar
: product (Fs and Gs) called 'Silver Streaks'

Are these black powder? I was under the impression that they were composites.

Bill
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: buda@star.enet.dec.com (Mark A. Buda)
Subject: Re: Rockets and fuel questions
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:18:25 GMT


In article <1992Sep1.232339.1932@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes...

>: If you find things blowing up, add some of the bottom
>: 2 or 3 slower items.  If you do not have enough power,
>: add the top 2-3 faster items.  Try to do them in proportion
>: to the formula.
> 
>You can also slow down the reaction by adding a higher percentage
>of charcoal to the mixture.

I thought that was whatI was saying.  I guess it did not
come across very well.

	- mark

buda@star.enet.dec.com
...!decwrl!star.enet.dec.com!buda
buda%star.enet.dec.com
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:05:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Aug28.180536.6259
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

stevens@horta.rice.edu (Richard Stevens) writes:
: If one wnats do design a small black powder model rocket engine, similar
: to the Estes type design, what could one use to slow down the burn
: rate and make the fuel less dangerous? How does one get the powder
: into a solid form?

Well, to pick a nit, you would not be designing a model rocket engine/motor.
Homemade rocket engines do not fit that legal classification - it would more
likely fall under amateur rocket engine.

First - a solid fuel grain is not nearly as explosive as small particles.

You can change the burn rate by either changing the nitrate/charcoal/sulfur
ratios - or you could add a burn rate modifier. 

You compress the very fine powder into the casing using non-sparking tools.
It can either be tamped - or pressed with a mechanical/hydraulic press.

Bill

: 
: Thanks
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 04:57:22 GMT

I wrote: writes:
: :                                     ^^^^
: : Don't you mean KNO3? I have never heard of this being done with potassium
: : chlorate.
: 
: No, I meant KClO3 and sugar. There are people who claim to have melted it
: successfully. I certainly would not try it.

Maybe I should re-emphasize this. I know of no amateur rocket propellant that
used KClO3 and sugar. KNO3 is hazardous enough - to play with chlorates in
combination with fuels, and then heating them, is what I consider foolish.

One reference that I have which lists the KNO3/sugar system is "The Rocket
Handbook for Amateurs" by Lt. Col Charles M. Parkin, Jr, John Day Company,
New York, 1958. 

It suggests limiting the temperature to 350 F. The sugar is melted, then 
the nitrate is added slowly - carefully stirring and watching the temperature
closely.

Now, I don't know how safe such a procedure is. I know that the solution
can ignite when the average temperature is quite a bit below this, due to
a local hot spot. At least the book says to make the propellant in small
batches, although they do not define "small".

Another suggestion that makes this reference suspect is the suggestion that
zinc/sulfur also makes a good fuel.

I think I would prefer to work with variations on black powder.

Bill
From: steve.woodward@betabbs.newton.ma.us (Steve Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: RE: ROCKETS AND FUEL QUES
Date: 29 Aug 92 11:15:00 GMT
Reply-To: steve.woodward@betabbs.newton.ma.us (Steve Woodward)
Organization: The Beta BBS -=- Newton MA -=- (617)244-7053

-> also obtained 50 pound bags of KNO3 the same way. Read the fine print
-> on the bags of fertilizer to see what's in it. The store I was in
-> also had sulfur

        Hmm, I haven't seen 50 lb bags of KNO3 in this state. Do you
know if it can be obtained in MA? And I have seen some of the stuff in
fetilizer (looks pretty good), but how would one go about extracting it
(assuming that there's other water soluable things in it that you do not
want at all).
From: saltzman@crd.ge.com (Bob Saltzman)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:57:41 GMT
Reply-To: saltzman@crd.ge.com
Organization: GE Corporate Research & Development, Schenectady, NY

In article <1992Aug27.223623.11626@ryn.mro4.dec.com>, pierson@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.183047.22191@cis.ohio-state.edu>,
>rubin@lagoon.cis.ohio-state.edu (Daniel Rubin) writes, quoting Bill Nelson:
>
>>>This was at the Pyrotechnics Guild International convention. It is an annual
>>>event - held in august. The next on is scheduled for North Dakota - I believe
>>>Fargo.
>	Right.  Acording to the current plan.
>
>>North Dakota !! Darn it I though it was going to be held out east next year !
>	Longish story.  It pingponged.  Its in Fargo.  Plan now....
>
>>I have an article saved somewhere stating that the convention next year will
>>be held in Pennsylvania somewhere, but I can't find it in my vast stockpile
>>of saved mail and news...
>	Year after, 1994, is scheduled for PA.  Name escapes me, but Western
>	part of the state.  Newcastle???
>
>thanks
>dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
>Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
>146 Main St			|I am the NRA.
>Maynard, Mass	
>01754				pierson@majsty.enet.dec.com
>"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles

Do you mean Oil City, PA?  It has been held there before.

I am really disappointed that NY is not on the schedule.
Convention there a few years ago was pretty good (and the
Guiness record for the largest string of firecrackers was
broken there too!)

Bob Saltzman
Empire State Fireworks
==============================================================================
Robert B. Saltzman (Bob)            Internet: saltzman@crd.ge.com
Information System Operation        Snailnet: Bldg KW, Room C120, PO Box 8
General Electric Company            AT&Tnet:  518-387-5828(B), 387-6560(FAX),
Corporate Research and Development            370-2222(H)
Schenectady, New York 12301 USA     ICBMnet:  42 50 04 N, 73 54 14 W, Alt 246
AEMT-4 Paramedic/Firefighter        HAMnet:   WB2ARK
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: fernee@newton.physics.uq.oz.au 
Subject: Flare Rockets
Organization: The University of Queensland
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 08:28:46 GMT

I have a marine flare rocket. It seems that they can carry a 
considerable payload, compared to the size of the rocket motor.
The rocket motor is approximately 5-6cm (2-2.5 in) long and
3.5 cm (1.5 in) in diameter and encased in steel. There are
three tiny holes in the side of the motor (1 mm diameter 
drilled at an acute angle) to provide a small component of 
angular thrust for spin stabilization. The main exhaust 
venturie is about 1 cm in diameter. The motor is an end 
burning type, which is easily seen by looking through the 
main venturie, and it seems to contain Al powder. So it 
doesn't seem to be a black powder based motor. It must 
provide a substantial thrust as it carries a 2.5 cm (1 in) 
diameter, 9 cm (3.5 in) long red flare which is in excess of 
50% of the mass of the whole rocket. Furthermore it is hand 
launched from a 30 cm (1 ft) long tube.

What is this fuel? Is there a design for a high thrust end 
burning rocket motor available?

There must be some experienced amateur rocket scientists about.
Any ideas?

Thanks,

Mark.

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: 10764860@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (PAUL WALSH)
Subject: Gun cotton
Organization: Faculty of Engineering, Monash University 
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 07:11:01 GMT


	This may sound a dumb question but I am not too keen on attempting 
to make up some nitric acid.

	Is it possible to produce gun cotton by adding KNO3 to concentrated 
sulphuric acid waiting a while then adding some cotton wool for a period of 
time and finally washing it out with water?

	I realise that gun cotton is made by combining Nitric and Sulphuric 
acids and soaking some cellulose (spelling?) in it for a while. I also 
realise that Nitric acid can be made by mixing KNO3 and H2SO4. Is it 
possible to miss the step of making the nitric acid?

	Ratios of chemicals needed would also be appreciated, as would the 
length of time needed in soaking the cotton wool.

	Thanks...Paul!

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: dblackbu@carr11.alleg.edu (David Blackburn)
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Keywords: death, dismemberment
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:14:29 GMT

In article <6771@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> mitchelr@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (Ryan  
James Mitchell) writes:
> In article <BtpC2M.AxJ@rice.edu> stevens@horta.rice.edu (Richard  
Stevens) writes:
 (a bunch deleted here)
> 2)  Can someone share with me the feasibility of this combination:   
equal
> parts of zinc dust and sulfer, mixed with water to form a paste which  
you can
> set and let dry.  Will this work as a solid rocket fuel?  (In other  
words will
> this burn quick enough or even light on fire?) 
> 
> 						- Ryan Mitchell

You lunatic! Maybe it's just a typo, but if you can't spell sulfur you  
hadn't ought to be playing with it! Adding water to Zn + S can cause it to  
ignite in your face. Even un-confined that would not be very much fun. 
Does anyone moderate this board to keep people from killing themselves?

Dr. David Blackburn, Ph. D. Chemist
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: rubin@lagoon.cis.ohio-state.edu (Daniel Rubin)
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:30:47 GMT

>This was at the Pyrotechnics Guild International convention. It is an annual
>event - held in august. The next on is scheduled for North Dakota - I believe
>Fargo.
>
>Bill

North Dakota !! Darn it I though it was going to be held out east next year !

I have an article saved somewhere stating that the convention next year will
be held in Pennsylvania somewhere, but I can't find it in my vast stockpile
of saved mail and news...

								    - Dan

-- 
  Daniel Joseph Rubin    |  "...A good football team for the alumni, parking
rubin@cis.ohio-state.edu |  for the faculty and sex for the students."
      GO        GO       |  - President E. Gordon Gee on the three things that
    BENGALS  BUCKEYES    |  a great university president must provide.....
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:33:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.161329.19331@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>stevens@horta.rice.edu (Richard Stevens) writes:
>: Does anybody know what formula is used for those Estes model rocket
>: type engines? For the thrust as well as the delay? Is it patented?
>
>Well, anyone who did know would have legal problems, if they divulged
>it.  However, it is just a variation on black powder. They adjust the
>component percentages to make it work better as a rocket fuel. They
>may also add some other materials which might, or might not, modify
>the burn rate or temperature.
>
>I have no idea about the delay.
>
>I doubt if the formula is patented. It definitely would be a proprietory
>secret. They might have patented the use of some substance in the engine.
>
>Bill

	A couple of points on patent law.  A patent can only be
	granted for a full disclosure of the invention.  If there is
	a patent, it should describe the propellant fully and accurately.
	The only right holding the patent gives you is the right to
	prevent others using the invention and you only have this right
	for 17 years from date of issue of the patent.  So, if those
	motors are >17 yrs old, there may not be a problem.  Of course,
	if patent law were that simple, there wouldn't be patent
	attorneys.

	The problem with a proprietary secret is that the formula can
	be detd. simply by buying one in a shop and taking it apart and
	you're left legless as long as trademarks aren't copied.

	Incidentally, I checked and there are nearly 1100 patents on rocket
	propellants.  Anybody know if Estes is owned by a larger
	corporation?

	Alec Chambers
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:59:35 GMT

syspb@smartstar.com (Paul) writes:
: Where was this rocket fest?  In Idaho?  I would like to attend if there is
: another one.  Is this some type of annual event?

This was at the Pyrotechnics Guild International convention. It is an annual
event - held in august. The next on is scheduled for North Dakota - I believe
Fargo.

Bill
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics