HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch)
Subject: Re: Amends revisited
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:18:51 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.204135.14635@gumby.dsd.trw.com> suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com (Adria, really) writes:
>     Another one--as a child I was severly abused by my
>mother. [...] According to the big book I'm supposed
>to appologize for SOMETHING because I resent her.
>[...]
>     Perhaps the Big Book is wrong here.  Perhaps we do not
>have to make ammends for EVERY resentment we have?  Perhaps
>there are some things that happen in which we have no part
>other than being there and we owe no one anything.

As I was taught in early recovery, the idea of amends, inventories,
etc. is to stop blaming, and to learn to be accountable for my own
actions, because I was so used to using blame as a reason for
drinking.  Moreover, as it says in the literature, one of the objects
of this whole thing is to get my ego to its right size.

However, the literature, in most cases, makes the assumption that the
ego is too big.  It rarely addresses the case of the ego being too 
small, as so often happens to abuse victims.  Also, when the Big Book
and the 12&12 speak of resentments, they do so knowing that we get 
many resentments just from the reactions other people have to things
we do to them.  ("How *dare* you duck when I throw things at you!")

But for me, part of rigorous honesty is knowing where a resentment
comes from.  In many cases, it points to a conflict to which I also
contributed, so it's likely that I owe amends for my contribution.
However, there are other conflicts that I can honestly say I didn't
contribute to.  I was abused too.  I may owe amends to my abusers 
for other things I might have done, but I certainly do not owe amends
for the abuse itself, because it *wasn't* *my* *fault*.

If the Big Book and the 12&12 say that any time I have a resentment I
automatically owe an amends, that if every time I am wronged I am auto-
matically in the wrong myself, then the Big Book and 12&12 are wrong.

-Ed
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 11 Sep 1992 11:56:48 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:

> This brings up another way in which the AA program sometimes does
> harm.  When one accepts a self-definition as an "alcoholic", as AA
> tradition requires, one then undergoes changes in identity that often
> aggravate and perpetuate the problem drinking.  In addition, persons
> labeled as alcoholics are often regarded (by themselves and others) as
> outcasts from society, and they bear the stigma of having a permanent
> handicap.

You are utterly correct. Once one accepts the label of alcoholic, and
that person continues to drink, his drinking problem becomes markedly
worse. I remember my first meeting was on a Thursday night, by Sunday
I was drunk again. That Sunday drunk was probably the worst I ever had
and it wasn't because of how much I drank. It was how I felt about it.
Although I did not accept the label of alcoholic, I did believe that
the people in AA were just like me, and some of them were sober. That
meant I could get sober too, yet there I was drunk again. It was
devestating. It sent me running back to AA. For me that is a happy
ending to a tradgic story. I've been sober ever since.

> This is AA-speak, Jim.  Hardly anybody today would define "alcoholic"
> in such a restrictive way.  It would mean, for example, that a person
> who had developed a physical dependency on alcohol could not be
> considered an alcoholic if he managed to quit on his own.

Bzzz. Sorry Richard. Wrong conclusion. All it means is that he would
not be the type of alcoholic who would need AA.

> I wonder how
> things would have turned out if she had attended AA meetings and was
> talked into believing that she had an incurable disease, that she was
> powerless over alcohol, that the AA program was the only way to
> control the disease, and that she had to abstain from alcohol for the
> rest of her life.

I missed Heart Dancer's post, but wouldn't she have turned
out....sober?

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3116 talk.politics.drugs:6209
From: dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:10:50 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:

>But, you have placed a finger on the sore spot - that drunk who sees the
>only choices as AA or continue drinking....but, if his pride is so much
>that he chooses drinking, who are we or you to complain?

However, it's not just a matter of pride -- it can also be a matter of
principal or intellectual honesty.  

It should be noted that Bill W. (co-founder of AA) warned about
intellectual pride (and other forms of pride) and warned against the
'AA is the only way' crowd.   Read the Twelve Concepts sometime.  ;-)

later, david
--
David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com
All music jars when the soul's out of tune.  --  Miguel de Cervantes
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Subject: Re: alternative to AA
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:53:34 GMT

>I think it's only fair to point out that RR is a for profit
>corporation and Trimpey gets a royalty from the sale of "The Small
>Book."  This does not invalidate his, or it's, claims.  Just mentioned
>in the interest of full disclosure.  

I'm not sure how this matters.  Be that as it may, one major
difference between RR and AA is that RR's goal is to enable alcoholics
to stay sober independently of a recovery group.  As I understand it,
the normal goal set for a problem drinker (alcoholic) in RR is to be
able to quit RR and remain sober within 12 to 18 months after joining.

Another difference is that all RR groups have a professional in the
mental health field (psychiatrist, social worker, etc.) assisting the
group as a consultant.

A similarity is that both AA and RR are free.

Full disclosure: I am not a member of RR, nor am I a part owner. :-)

Richard
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!!
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:28:14 GMT

sher@umbc4.umbc.edu (Sherri Crain) writes:

<stuff deleted>

>You have a valid point.  I think it's tough to solve any problem if
>you just sit back and cry about it.  However,there have been many times
>in my sobriety where I had to sit back and cry or get angry,whatever the
>appropriate response to the given situation was,FIRST before I could get
>out of myself enough to DO something about the problem.  

It is interesting to me that the first and second columns in the Resentment
list are 'Who I'm Pissed At' and 'What the Hell they Did to Me, Dammit'
(paraphrasing 8-). It often seems as if we have to first spew out all that
garbage before we can even _look_ at what we need to look at...

love and service,
jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
This life is a test. It is only a test. If it had been a real life, you 
would have been given instructions....
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: warton@ssd.intel.com (Peter Warton)
Subject: Re: Untitled
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division, Intel Corp.
Distribution: alt
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 01:28:09 GMT


In article <1992Sep12.002234.18038@gumby.dsd.trw.com> suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com () writes:

	[ Deleted: unrelated to the line I'm responding to]


>     I belong to a group with a supposedly lower alcoholic
>rate than most...even quoted in literature as such.  This is,
>however, not true.  If you ask the leaders (or the recognized
>leaders) of the people, you will get a much different answer
>than the real one:  no one wants to admit that their group
>has a problem.  Especially Jews for whom most of the religion
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is based around drinking Manochewitz wine and occasions to be
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>able to drink said brew.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are you Jewish?  This seem extremely contrary to the Judaism that
I practice.  I don't mean this as a flame, but this appears to me to 
be a harmful generalization.


Peter Warton


>=====End post for Adria=======
>-- 
>Maurice Suhre
>suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com

_______________________________________________________________________
warton@ssd.intel.com
I speak for myself only, against my better judgement.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
_____________________________________________________________________________
Peter Warton (Note- the h was dropped over 800 years ago)
warton@ssd.intel.com
From: ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:52:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <2AAFF403.20018@news.service.uci.edu> altshule@skid.ps.uci.edu (Eric Altshuler) writes:
>>Unfortunately the more effective methods don't get a tenth of the
>>publicity that AA gets, and AA isn't interested in telling anyone 
>>about them, so most people don't know about them.
>
>Have to disagree with you here.  AA does not advertise.  No one 
>endorses us.

True, AA does not advertise (except for the occasional late-night PSA),
but it does get far more publicity and tacit endorsement than any other 
recovery program.

For example, they made a TV-movie a few years ago called "My Name is
Bill W.", but they've never made a TV-movie called "My Name is Jack
Trimpey".  Don't know who Jack Trimpey is?  Q.E.D.

Another example: In the movie "Sara T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic",
when it came time for her to get help, one of her teachers (herself in
recovery) suggested AA, apparently with no other alternatives.

Still another example: Around here, as in other places, people con-
victed of DWI are often sent to AA by the courts, whether or not
either the convict or AA want it that way.

The point here is that regardless of whether or not it asked to be,
AA is far and away the best known recovery program.  It is so much 
more widely known than RR, SOS, WFS, etc., that it is often seen as 
"the only game in town" even when it isn't.

On another note, _The Real Thirteenth Step_ was written by Tina
Tessina.  Its thesis is that the 12 Steps do nothing to break the
cycle of dependence, but merely substitute one addiction for 
another, and that true freedom from addiction can only be achieved
through development of a healthy autonomy (as opposed to becoming
a pathological control freak).

-Ed
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: easier?
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:31:31 GMT

dab@ism.isc.com (David A. Butterfield) writes:

>With food addiction it becomes more obvious that it is important
>to teach the judgement necessary to eat in *appropriate* amounts,
>rather than simply teaching complete abstinance.  

Us OA's don't practice abstinence from eating!

"And who gets a one-year chip? Jim? Great! Somebody wheel Jim's cold, dead
carcass up here so's we can give him a chip!"

We practice abstinence from _compulsive_ overeating. And we don't learn
judgement, we get a Higher Power and a Spritual Awakening that handles
the problem for us.

love and service,
jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
i need to ask myself.....
***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********
From: carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Abstinence (was: easier?)
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:56:12 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor

rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman) writes:

>As I've tried to point out, there are certainly dogmatic AA members,
>but the AA approved literature, which even the most dogmatic of members
>rely on, says that AA is not concerned with other programs one way or
>another.
>
>If other programs work, my sense is that that would be just fine with
>most people in AA.  I know it would be just fine with me.  

I'm glad to hear this.  But as you know, newcomers to AA are going to
run into the dogmatic members as well as the open-minded ones.  In
addition, two familiar AA slogans encourage dogmatic attitudes:
"Utilize, don't analyze" and "Your best thinking got you here".
Accordingly, newcomers expressing doubts about the program will often
be told in effect that thinking leads to drinking.

As evidence of the prevalence of dogmatic belief in AA, Exhibit A
would be alt.recovery itself.  I've criticized AA (and by implication
other 12-step programs) for certain deficiencies and for propagating
misinformation, and I've and claimed that AA can be unhelpful and do
harm as well as good -- things I firmly believe are important for
problem drinkers, addicts, and the public to know about.  But in
response I get not only some very thoughtful, rational, and calm
postings but also a good deal of hostility, defensiveness, and
attempts to suppress this kind of discussion.  One might imagine by
contrast a newsgroup in which free, open, and reasoned discussion of
the pros and cons of the various paths to recovery was welcomed and
encouraged, while criticizing individuals and flaming were frowned
upon.

If AA members are truly more committed to helping people than to their
own belief system, they might consider handing out to all newcomers a
sheet that says:

"You are welcome here and we hope you will stay.  Many thousands of
alcoholics have found sobriety and a new life through the AA
fellowship.  But we recognize that the AA way is not for everyone.
Our primary purpose is to help people with drinking problems sober up
any way they can.  So in case you decide that AA is not for you, here
are some alternative methods you may wish to explore....  Here are the
phone numbers for Women for Sobriety, Men for Sobriety, SOS, Rational
Recovery, and Methods of Moderation....  Best wishes for your new life
of sobriety!"

Or something like that.

Richard
Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3185 talk.politics.drugs:6297
From: roman@sparc17.hri.com (Roman Budzianowski)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 14 Sep 92 21:25:32 GMT
Reply-To: roman@sparc17.hri.com (Roman Budzianowski)
Followup-To: alt.recovery
Organization: Horizon Research

In article <BuDv8K.B5I@apollo.hp.com>, mob@apollo.HP.COM writes:

> 	I suspect that she would have abstained from alcohol.  I sometimes
> 	wonder why anyone who themselves did not have a dependency on alc-
> 	ohol would think that not being able to drink "forever" is some 
> 	sort of prison sentence.  I abstain from consuming prune juice,
> 	but noone would think anything of that.

>       But, for
> 	me, the biggest thing is what I mentioned 3 paragraphs ago - where is
> 	the hardship?  What am I missing out on by abstaining from alcohol?
> 	In my experience, absolutely nothing. 


You are missing a lot if you don't have a couple of glasses of good
white Burgundy with the shrimp scampi.


Roman
From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!!
Date: 8 Sep 92 02:14:24 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

|mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera) writes:
|: James is right though. There has been a lot of garbage dumping going
|: on.

In article <29671@ursa.UUCP> millman@ursa.UUCP (Phillip Millman) writes:
|I have to agree.  Too many times I hear people whining about their problems
|and not doing anything about them.

There are two ways I know of you can help people:
1) by giving them solutions to their problems, and
2) by giving them support and understanding.

There are probably more, but I've never heard that harsh criticism was
on the list. Seems kind of counter-productive to me.

Of course, if you guys want to go start alt.perfect-people, well, I
hope you enjoy the quiet. The people who come to this forum for
support and understanding sure will.

mr HEINOUS
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Step Nine
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:32:04 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software

In article <1227267297@trsvax> kasey@trsvax.tandy.com writes:
>
>During my first pass through the 12 steps, it was brought to my attention that
>making amends can also mean finding forgiveness for someone who has hurt you,
>not only "seeking forgiveness" from those you have hurt. ...
> ... He is an active alcoholic and direct amends was not possible.

Thank you for saying this.  I've been on the treadmill with my own ex
about trying to make direct amends when none are possible because she
is still practicing her addiction, and her thinking is still skewed
with respect to me.  Whatever I do simply feeds her sense of
entitlement.  Then, when I set a boundary, it provokes hostility, and
whatever hopes I've had for an amicable resolution are dashed.  My
guilt continues as well as my resentment, and off we go again.  All I
can do is unentangle myself as best I can, and pray for her.

One thing my head has known but my heart is just beginning to grasp is
that the efficacy of my amends is not determined by the person I'm
making amends to.  If I go into it with that expectation, then I'm
setting that person up to be my higher power, and that harms us both.

To my ex, to my HP, and to anyone who cares to listen:  I've done all
that I could to make amends for the harms I've done.  It's no longer up
to me.  It's up to my HP to reveal to me what I am to do.  It's up to
her HP to reveal to her what she is to do.

>Thanks for letting me share,
>Kathy

Thanks for sharing!  You helped me out.

-r
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com ()
Subject: recovery
Originator: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com
Reply-To: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com ()
Organization: TRW Space & Defense
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:25:20 GMT


=====Begin post for Adria=====
Peter Warton:
    Funny that right after I SAID that I was Jewish, you then
turned around and asked if I was.  I wonder what else of my
post you only half-read and feel like commenting on.

To all the other ppl who are so into controversy:
     Hey, can't you stop picking on others for a bit?
It's very disturbing.  Especially when a person posts
something positive and so many jump down that person's
throat.  It seems to me that quite a few ppl on here
ought to stop looking for the faults in others and
take their OWN inventories for a bit--get out of a
bit of denial and start working TOGETHER FOR THE
COMMON GOOD OF RECOVERY.
     I keep posting positive stuff about what works
for me and what has worked for others that I KNOW
and how I think both are very good because BOTH WORK.
And lately I STILL get jumped on for that.  Maybe I
need to take some of my own inventory as well, but
I think it's mean for ppl to act that way.

     AA WORKS FOR SOME!!!  AA DOES NOT WORK FOR
OTHERS!!!!   I needed AA to STOP drinking but AA here
is not based on KEEPING ONE SOBER--in this town it is
based on social groups and peer pressure and religious
dogma.  I advocate AA.  I advocate the other ways that
others have found to stop drinking.  I advocate the ways
that others have decided to use to NOT stop drinking.
WHATEVER THE HELL WORKS AND MAKES ONE THE HAPPIEST!
Dammit!  So stop jumping on me for telling you the way
things are IN THIS TOWN and stop jumping on me for
being OPEN MINDED--especially those of you who are so
pro AA as HONESTY, OPEN MINDEDNESS, and WILLINGNESS
are essential to AA.

     I feel much better now.  Please do NOT respond
harshly to me for saying this.  I much prefer a smile
and a hug to all the nasty criticism that's been going on.

--Adria (dog@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu)
=====End post for Adria=======
-- 
Maurice Suhre
suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: barbaraj@csc.ti.com (Heart Dancer)
Subject: Re: blocking out joy
Reply-To: barbaraj@csc.ti.com
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 00:08:35 GMT

In article <1992Sep09.201746.3764@Veritas.COM>, rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman) writes:
>> I had a very enlightening day yesterday.  It started out with me in
>> therapy--it was a good session.  We talked over a number of things and
>> then did some breath work.  During the breath work, I started to
>> experience a spontaneous sense of joy...

One of my favorite reasons for doing breathwork!  (Hmmm... haven't done any
in awhile).

>>  What I
>> felt yesterday (and have been feeling somewhat for the last several
>> weeks) isn't manufactured.  It's just there.  In fact, it's there in
>> spite of the chaos of my messy divorce.

I just heard someone else say this morning that she was grateful for her
joyful attitude even when the outer circumstances of her life
unsubstantiated it.  (I try to pay attention when the same message
comes to me from different quarters).

>> I don't have to get stupid just because I happen to feel good.  I can
>> stay alert and explore this new territory carefully, a little bit at a
>> time, a day at a time.  And if I slip and get a little muddy along the
>> way, well, progress and not perfection.  The important thing is that I
>> get back up and stay up, and continue to be responsible to myself and
>> my HP, even with my mistakes and imperfections.

Absolutely.

Last Friday I had a very frustrating day at work; I noticed myself
getting irritable and cranky and tense.  I stayed a little later than
I had intended and if I was going to make it to my exercise class, I
was going to be late.  (Regular exercise is a new component in my
program.  I've been at it just since 9/3).  I was tempted to just go
home and be a couch potato, but decided to go to class even if I was
late.  I felt much better having released the feelings of frustration
and crankiness through the exercise.  Reading a book that evening, I
was reminded that I get to make up my mind about this project I'm one.
I can be frustrated and cranky, or I can approach it with confidence
and joy.  Today (I have to run or I will be late again :-) the
problems almost seemed to resolve themselves!

BJ
 
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
                                        Emma Goldman
From: tibbits@sisal.llnl.gov (Patrick Tibbits)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: No Cigarettes
Date: 5 Sep 92 04:31:03 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

You brought back to me  the last time  I had trouble with tobacco,
in 1978. Off the stuff for 3 months, I had 1 cigar on a visit home
and was hooked again for a couple years. Off now for > 10 years, 
tobacco use seems like pure insanity. Only took the stuff up so I
could inhale dope better. Took that up when I was drunk. But the tobacco
hung on the longest, unless you count caffiene, exercise and sex as 
addictions. Also anger.

Patrick

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: Re: I WANT A BEER!!!
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 04:47:00 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <Sep08.044118.36391@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) writes:
>I know there is real point in writing this here, but I had to let it out.
                ^
          Insert 'no' here

Does my typing make it obvious?

Worry not, world.  I haven't had one yet.

Mark
Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3182 talk.politics.drugs:6294