From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: Intellectually Challenging moments in Modern history
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:20:42 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Keywords: From: decay@

In article <mykes.0acg@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
#In article <1992Jul27.034354.27753@wetware.com> drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:
## mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
## ] Women were never ever made criminals.  Doctors were held responsible.
## ] This is before Roe, since there has been ZERO legislation against
## ] abortion in the 20 years since.
##
##
## don't get out in the big world a whole lot now do you?
##
## forget about a place called pennsylvania?
#
#According to a consortium of 8+ pro-abortion interest groups, only
#25 states are likely to outlaw abortion altogether.  Less than
#10 would make it 100% unregulated as per Roe.  The rest of the
#states would allow reasonable limitations on abortion.  This
#is "if Roe is overturned" by the supreme court.  My source is
#Time Magazine, which published the data as a map of the US
#with each state in a specific color.  The data was based upon
#pre-Roe laws, current opinions of state leadership, and other
#laws on the books.

Poor Schwartz is determined to prove that he can't read, isn't he?

I have the Time magazine here in front of me.  21 states have
abortion bans on their books.  (The data was compiled by NARAL,
which is not a consortium of anything, it's a single organization.)
Nine states are listed as having no restrictions.  

NARAL (as was reported in the article) predicts that seven states
will keep abortion legal, and thirteen are likely to ban abortion
outright.  

#Now, tell me how Pennsylvania passed a law making abortion
#100% illegal?  Or shut the hell up.

No one said that it had.  You said that "there has been ZERO
legislation against abortion", which is clearly wrong.  
Pennsylvania's law outlawed third trimester abortions
in most cases and restricted access.

## forget about a place called guam....
##
#
#Same is true of guam.

Read Guam's law, Schwartz.  Read Utah's law.  Read Guam's law.
These have all been passed since 1989.  These laws
prohibit most abortions.

## and why is it that now when AntiAboritonistsRhetoriticianists
## rattle on about abortion laws, they do not talk in terms
## of returning to the days before R.v.W -
##
#
#I talk about the days before Roe quite a bit.  Obviously you
#have missed my posts.  Before Roe, abortion was legal in the
#US.  There were 500,000 legal (repeat LEGAL) abortions in
#the US - 1/3 of the number we have with Roe legalized abortions.
#I also say that if Roe is overturned by the supreme court,
#which I don't see happening, abortion will still be legal,
#just as it was before Roe.

Abortion was legal in some states under many circumstances and
illegal in most.  You have an odd way of using the language,
to say the least.

#Tell me why the people of 25 states vote for government that
#would make abortion illegal?  Or shut the hell up.

Twenty-one states have governors who would sign laws
criminalizing abortion.  In fifteen states both houses
of the state legislature would criminalize abortion.
(Eleven of these are overlap.)  If one counts states
in which the governor is anti-abortion (but the legislatures
are not) and states where the legislatures are anti-
abortion (but the governors are not), then one arrives
at your number of 25.  I can't see how a state which
elected a governor who openly supports legal abortion
while also electing a state house which does not (such
as NJ) can be considered as a state that voted for
"government that would make abortion illegal."

It may come as a surprise to you, but most people don't
vote as single-issue voters on abortion.

## but instead speak in terms of "abortion is murder" and
## seek to criminalize it to a level it never knew before.....
##
#
#I have, in the past, said that abortion is murder.  But that
#is MY opinion.  Do you deny me the right to MY opinion?  Are
#you that much a facsist?  You would censor me?

Paranoia can be treated, Schwartz.

#What I only want to write about, since I will not convince
#YOU abortion is murder nor do I even care to try at all,
#is that the Supreme Court has NO business deciding the
#question "what is life?"  If you and I had to decide,
#we could come to no conclusion...

So, do you support laws which would enshrine your opinion
into law?

## So Mike, step back, get out of your pleasant little
## cozy hovel in Los Altos and see what is going on
## out there in the big world...
##
#
#OK, a resort to personal attack?  Where did you learn to
#debate?

Where did you learn to read?  

I'd suggest that you read a bit more before you start
citing "facts."

## then figure out which side of the liberty issue
## you want to be on....
##
#
#I already know what side of the liberty issue I want to be on.
#I say that the state or feds should not be allowed to preclude
#a woman from traveling anywhere she wants (i.e. to a state
#where it is legal) to have her abortion.  That is totally
#consistent with the 14th ammendment.

Pathetic.  A woman's right to bodily autonomy should depend
on geography, Schwartz?  

Susan



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