HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: NAR Renewal for BAR.
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:23:43 GMT
Reply-To: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Distribution: na
Organization: Robotic Midwives, Ltd.

In article <1992Jul29.145044.23641@rsd0.rsd.dl.nec.com> buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.231204.10651@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack) writes:
>|> I just renewed my NAR membership after a 18 year lapse.  What I got in
>|> the mail was my ID card and a list of sections.  Nothing else.  I know
>
>This is one area where the NAR needs some work, volunteer organization or
>not.  It seems you have to request your copy of the Pink Book.  
>
>I have to say that when I joined Tripoli I got a welcome letter, membership
>card, a copy of the by-laws, rules, etc. (i.e., members' handbook), a directory
>of all members names and addresses (sorted several different ways), a list
>of manufacturers, and an apology for not sending my first copy of Tripolitan
>with all of that.

Just to balance things, a bit, I joined the NAR a year ago, and got all
of the stuff mentioned by Buzz in two mailings: the welcoming letter,
membership card, list of Sections, etc. in one mailing and the NARTS
stuff in another. However, as Buzz knows, I didn't get my Pink Book.

>I forget who's handling NARTS, now, but he's doing a good job.
>Note that if you were to email a request today it might be a while before 
>you get a response (as in an extra week or so), because of NARAM starting
>day after tomorrow.

His name is Bill Spadafora and seems to be a real nice guy. I've
exchanged mail with him a few times (when asking his permission to
put him in my E-mail article for AmSpam). He even asked me to write 
a paper for him on my next project (gyro guidence) before I've even 
started the design!

- Jack

=============================================================================
||Jack Hagerty, Robotic Midwives, Ltd.                 jack@rml.com        ||
||Livermore, CA		           NOTE! New, improved address! ^^^        ||
||(510) 455-1143	            (old ones will still work)             ||
||-------------------------------------------------------------------------||
||               "Do or not do. There is no try." - Yoda                   ||
=============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: Jim Cook <J.Cook@ENS.Prime.COM>
Subject: Re: Best Place to Purchase Aerotech Stuff
Reply-To: <J.Cook@ENS.Prime.COM>
Organization: Prime Computer, Inc.
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 16:16:28 GMT

In article <1992Jul16.175603.15779@ennews.eas.asu.edu> elder@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
(Greg Elder) writes:

>Anyway, my question is, what is the best source, price-wise, from which to 
>buy Aerotech products?  I know that there are many companies which carry
>Aerotech stuff but hopefully somebody on the net can point me to the
>best source (and I can avoid writing numerous letters requesting
>price lists from various stores).

MicroBrick out of NY used to be the cheapest, but I think they no longer sell
Aerotech.  Rumor has it their distributorship was pulled...

The two places I would try are High Sierra Rocketry at P.O. Box 343, Orem, UT
84059 and Rocket Research & Development (formerly Rocket Research) at
8901 Milbrae Court, Richmond, VA  23236.

Just my guess.  Other HPR junkies may have a more informed opinion.

Jim
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: More DOT/Reload Information
Date: 29 Jul 92 23:37:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Jul29.233703.14515
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

hrbob@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (robert.e.wiersbe) writes:
: 
: UPS will not ship Class B Explosives at all, but Federal Express will to 
: certain places (is that what you were talking about Bill?). But since DOT says
: NO, they can't anymore.
: 
: Don't expect this situation to be resolved anytime soon (like the next few
: weeks). It's been a long time coming, I guess.

I suspect that you can thank Vulcan Motors for much of this happening. I do
not know if Estes was involved, or not - but they were involved with Vulcan
in making the infamous videotape.

C.D. - do you have anything on this?

Bill
From: chuckh@hal.COM (Chuck Heron)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Tube Size/Stability questions
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:05:38 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: runamok.hal.com

I've got several fairly basic questions:

1) How does tube length affect the CP and stability?
Increased length would push the CG forward, but how would the CP change?
Would it move forward as much as the CG or are there advantages to
having long rockets?

2) What effect does tube width have on stability?
I would guess that the drag would increase and slow it down a little, 
but are there other effects?

3) Would a multi-diameter body, (thinner tube in front) push the
CP back due to increased surface area toward the rear?

Thanks
-chuck
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: j.cook@primerd.prime.com (C. James Cook)
Subject: Re: NAR Renewal for BAR.
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:09:08 GMT

hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack) writes:
> I just renewed my NAR membership after a 18 year lapse.  What I got in
> the mail was my ID card and a list of sections.  Nothing else.  I know
> that the NAR is a volunteer organization, but I expected at least a
> "Welcome to the NAR" letter.  Will the rest follow later?  I expected to
> get a Pink Book, info on NARTS, etc.
> 
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.
> 
> -- 
> | Edmund Hack - Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Co. - Houston, TX
> | hack@aio.jsc.nasa.gov    SpokesPersonp(Me,or(NASA,LESC)) = NIL
> |   **** Papoon for President! You Know He's Not Insane!! ****
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: HPR Attitudes Towards Model Rocketry
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:00:31 GMT

buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott) writes:

... comments deleted ...

: The NAR and Tripoli need to work together.  The members of both organizations
: need to respect the efforts, rules, and members of the other.  There are more
: than enough problems facing rocketry today.  There are the problems with 
: the CPSC and NFPA.  There is the FAA dragging its feet.  There are states
: (effectively, if not outright) banning HPR.  We don't need to insult or
: laugh at the other group.  What did or did not happen several years back,
: when Tripoli was formed, is water long since under the bridge. 
: 
: I apologize for the rambling comments in this post.  Between the launch this
: past weekend and the Tripolitan NARCON comments, though, I just got a little
: pissed at the attitudes shown by (hopefully, just a few) Tripoli members.

I have not seen any such problem here in the Pacific Northwest. Hopefully, it
will not start.

I too, was concerned with the attitude displayed in a couple of articles
in the Tripolitan. I also am concerned with the statements made in the
published statement by a person who is running for the Board of Directors.
He is not pro-NAR - according to him, he is "far from it". This is totally
unnecessary - although I thank him for making it known, instead of keeping
it secret. However, I will not vote for him, if there is an option.

I have always encouraged people who are interested in HP rocketry to join
both groups. It is possible that that NAR HP program will fizzle due to
lack of interest, but there is no valid reason why it should - as long as
the NAR is willing to promote the program properly.

Bill
Member of NAR and TRA
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: HPR Attitudes Towards Model Rocketry
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:20:23 GMT

pfeiffer@nmsu.edu (Joe Pfeiffer) writes:
: In article <1992Jul22.052152.16088@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: 
: 
:    This brings up another question: I do not recall the rules from my manual,
:    but can a person do such a step-up? Or do they have to send in the paperwork
:    for one level and wait for confirmation to be returned before they can do the
:    next higher level certification? 
: 
: Earlier this summer, I missed a chance to get HPR certified (there was
: a launch, somebody with the authority to certify was there, I had two
: weeks notice to build a rocket, a friend of mine & his son & my son &
: I had a fishing trip planned...).  Anyway, ``the guy'' told me he
: would be happy to ratchet me up several steps in a day.

See C.D.'s response to my posting. It appears that this can only be done
at sanctioned meets, at present. Whether "the guy" is willing to do this
or not is immaterial if doing so violates the guidelines that have been
set up.

Bill
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: bjue@engin.umich.edu (Brian Jeffrey Jue)
Subject: Sanding Sealer
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:04:05 GMT

     I'm having major problems cleaning my brushes after painting balsa with
sanding sealer.  I'm using Pactra's Astro Color (or whatever they call it)
rocket paint, and their brand of thinner.  But when I swish the brush around 
in the thinner, and then wash the brush out in soapy water, a white film
collects on the brush when it dries.
 
     Obviously this is the talcy substance that is mixed with the dope, but
how do I clean the brush properly?  It's getting to be a real pain to pick off
the hardened strings of dried up talc on the brush.

     I'd appreciate any help!
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Astro-Blaster Glider under construction: questions
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:19:06 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <BrwEo2.Fsq@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
> ly. As far as accelerators go, use Jet Set. This comes in a spray
> can and doesn't dissapear like the other stuff (that comes in plas-
> tic pump sprays) does.

One thing I have learned -- DON'T put the spray head in the bottle of
accelerator and then just leave it there.  Yes, it evaporates.  And,
at least in my experience, you have 100% chance of SOMEBODY knocking
the bottle over on its side and not noticing it, whereupon it will
leak all the accelerator and then you'll come back to find it empty.
Alaways take OUT the spray head and put the solid cap back on.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: HPR Attitudes Towards Model Rocketry
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 05:21:52 GMT

cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
: In article <1992Jul21.210031.25959@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: > I have always encouraged people who are interested in HP rocketry to join
: > both groups. It is possible that that NAR HP program will fizzle due to
: > lack of interest, but there is no valid reason why it should - as long as
: > the NAR is willing to promote the program properly.
: 
: Here's a good question.  What do you think the NAR needs to do to improve
: its HP program?

I am not sure it does. The major complaint I have is the $5 fee that is
required for each step up in certification. I could see such a fee, for
one day - such as a person stepping up sequentially through H, I, and J
certifications at the same launch. I do not see how there can be any more
paperwork involved in processing such a procedure.

This brings up another question: I do not recall the rules from my manual,
but can a person do such a step-up? Or do they have to send in the paperwork
for one level and wait for confirmation to be returned before they can do the
next higher level certification? 

Keep up the good work - I am glad that the NAR has finally decided to get
involved in HPR. I, and many others, appreciate all the work you have been
doing with the NFPA committee on the new rewrite. I hope this effort will
bring the NAR and Tripoli closer together than they have ever been in the
past. Hopefully, we can drum it through the heads of the old diehards that
we are all in this sport together and what hurts one group is going to 
ultimately hurt all.

Bill
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Subject: High Power Certification Programs
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:18:35 GMT

All this talk about HPR certification has got me thinking (which has been
documented as being extremely dangerous, to begin with...).  The NAR
certification program has individuals moving up the HPR ladder one rung at a
time, successfully flying a given motor type to certify for the next power
up.  TRA confirmation has you just successfully fly an H powered rocket and
that's it.  I see a definite problem with both approaches.

I feel the NAR program is more conservative than it needs to be.  I don't feel
that you need to demonstrate every motor power class.  On the other hand, I
feel the TRA process is a bit too easy.  Just because I've flown my 'Crude
on a 29mm H70 doesn't mean I'm ready to go build a 12' monster and fly it on
a K550 or L1500!

I know that there was probably a great deal of debate in both organizations
as to the proper way to go.  I don't want to re-open that particular can of
worms.  I'm mostly curious if a sort of compromise between the two ways was
ever brought up and what the arguments against it are (were).  Specifically,
what about certifying every couple of power classes for the next couple of 
classes, i.e., certify for H/I in one flight (using any of the inclusive
motor types) then, when ready, successfully fly a J/K powered rocket to
certify for that level of HPR.  From what I've seen, H/I sport rockets
tend to be built using pretty much the same techniques and materials.  When you
get to J/K rockets, though, things start to change.  You then jump to a BIG 
change in materials and techniques when you start flying L (and up) powered
rockets.

I'm also curious as to the argument against allowing total impulse of 
clustered models to count, rather than requiring the total impulse from a 
single engine.  If I can build and succefully fly a rocket powered by, say, 
4 G42's (about 360 total impulse) I think I've demonstrated a pretty damn
high level of competence!  What's the difference between that rocket and
flying an I161?  You've got similar total impulse, average thrust, and 
burn times.

============================================================================
Buzz McDermott                   Internet: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com
NAR      13559
Tripoli   1785
============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: elder@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Greg Elder)
Subject: SSS Launch Dates
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 19:09:25 GMT

For those who may be interested, I'm posting the following launch
dates and info for the Superstition Spacemodeling Society near Phoenix
Arizona.  Come on by if you're in the area.


12 September -- Launch
    Fun Event:  Ping Pong MIRV
    Spot land three ping pong balls that were carried aloft
    in the model of your choice with the motor of your choice.

10 October -- Launch
    Fun Event:  Giganto-Chute
    Dump the biggest chute possible out of a rocket model.
    Best performance determined by popular vote.

14-15 November --  NARWIN IV -- NAR Sanctioned Regional Contest
    Events:  'A' Streamer Duration; 'A' Super-roc Alt.;
    'B' Boost/Glide; 6 'C' Cluster Alt.,; 'E' Eggloft Alt.;
    Giant Sport Scale.
    Special Event:  High Powered Ultra-Scale

12 December 
    Fun Event:  Holly-Roc
    Build a holiday themed rocket (Watch them Santas fly!)

--
  Greg Elder               | "Artificial intelligence?!!!  I'd rather
  Dept of Computer Science | have real intelligence." 
  Arizona State University |                      -- Ann Elder
  elder@enuxha.eas.asu.edu |
From: paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: LDRS XI, BALLS Launches
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:27:44 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Taniwha Systems Design

In article <spiegl.711769825@lead15> spiegl@rtsg.mot.com (Mark Spiegl) writes:
>
>Is the LDRS/BALLS launch in the same spot as last year? I have the 
>Tripolitan maps/directions from 06/91, but I have not seen the write-up 
>for this year.

Yes, make sure that you fill out the pre-launch/FAA paperwork asap (you
should have got it by now) - there is seperate paperwork for LDRS and BALLS
since BALLS is not Tripoli sanctioned - if you want to go to both fill out both
sets - if you don't have paperwork call Tripoli asap!! This year the BLM wants
us to pay $2/day/car mainly because of the mess left behind last year ....
Bruno's has been full for months so either camp out or stay in Reno and drive
120 odd miles every morning.


	Paul
-- 
Paul Campbell    UUCP: ..!mtxinu!taniwha!paul     AppleLink: CAMPBELL.P

	"'Potato', not 'Potatoe'"
		Bart Simpson - on the blackboard 6/25/92
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk (Codesmiths)
Subject: Re: Clear fins
Cc: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:35:00 +0000


I've used a piano wire frame, with heavy gauge polythene sheet
filling the gap. The sheet was fixed by folding over the edge & heat
stapling the sheets together.

It has ripped on a couple of landings, but it's easy to fix.

          Andy Dingley    dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: j.cook@primerd.prime.com (C. James Cook)
Subject: Re: More DOT/Reload Information
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:14:54 GMT

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu (Derek Wildstar) writes:
> : >: 
> : >: Don't expect this situation to be resolved anytime soon (like the next few
> : >: weeks). It's been a long time coming, I guess.
> : >
> : >I suspect that you can thank Vulcan Motors for much of this happening. I do
> : >not know if Estes was involved, or not - but they were involved with Vulcan
> : >in making the infamous videotape.
> : 
> : I'm sorry, I came in late, and there seems to be a story behind all of
> : this.  Could someone please summarize and bring me up to date?
> 
> C.D., I think it was you that posted information on this. Do you still have
> that around? Would you be willing to repost it?
> 
> Bill
From: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Rocket/Missile Reference Material?
Date: 28 Jul 92 04:32:52 GMT
Reply-To: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Organization: Robotic Midwives, Ltd.

In article <5159@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>In article <10490010@hpfcmgw.FC.HP.COM>, bo@hpfcmgw.FC.HP.COM (Bo Viger) writes:
>> I prefer to scratch build scale models of rockets and missiles from around
>> the world, and a "Jane's Missiles" type of book (does one of these exist?)
>> would help alot. Most important are complete dimensions and photos (for 
>> paint scheme and decals) of the rockets.
>
>If you insist on a book, what you want is probably Peter Alway's book
>Scale Model Rocketry.  It's $22.45, but only if you can find one.  

I refrained from answering this since I knew *someone* would mention
Peter's book and its relative rareness. However, one  cannot recommend 
this book highly enough so it's worth the effort to find a copy.

I bought my copy of this book last May from Ed LaCroix at Apogee
Components and he still had a few left for the above price plus $3 P&H.
You can reach Ed at (602) 780-2946.

Also, as the original poster observed, why not use a *real* Janes?
Most large reference libraries have a set and they cover the
entire spectrum of military hardware.

- Jack


=============================================================================
||Jack Hagerty, Robotic Midwives, Ltd.                 jack@rml.com        ||
||Livermore, CA		           NOTE! New, improved address! ^^^        ||
||(510) 455-1143	            (old ones will still work)             ||
||-------------------------------------------------------------------------||
||       "Harold! You idiot! Those were my mother's feathers!"             ||
||                       - Amelia Bissonnet, _It's a Gift_                 ||
=============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Subject: Re: Comments on some Estes kits
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:55:58 GMT

In article <14muo5INNqsb@agate.berkeley.edu>, utidjian@remarque.berkeley.edu (David M.V. Utidjian) writes:
|> A few comments on some Estes kits.....
|> 
|> Delta Clipper: Just bought it  $12.99 at the store (same as cat. price :()
|> 	Seems like a nice kit... ought to be a real screamer, advertised as
|> going to a half mile in altitude.
|> 
|> Has thru-the-body fin mount scheme but the depth is only about two body tube
|> thicknesses... should, however, contribute greatly to fin strength.  The
|> model has streamer recovery.  Kinda hokey paint scheme tho'.
|> 
|> Will modify mine to have plywood fins, balsa dings up too easily, will have
|> to recheck CG tho'.
|> 
|> Has anyone built and flown the Clipper yet? And if you did, di you get
|> it back?!
|> 
|> 

I haven't built or flown one yet.  But I've seen a couple flown at DARS
launches.  It IS a screamer.  Of four flights I've seen, 3 have been 
recovered.  All 3 had people tracking with binoc's.  The one that was lost
didn't.  Well, he got the booster back :=).

============================================================================
Buzz McDermott                   Internet: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com
NAR      13559
Tripoli   1785
============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: jsvrc@rc.rit.edu (J A Stephen Viggiano)
Subject: Re: HPR Attitudes Towards Model Rocketry
Organization: RIT Research Corp
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:59:07 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.142755.2177@axis.dsg.ti.com> barrett@add.itg.ti.com writes:

> . . .  there was a guy who works for a hobby shop that sells Aerotech
>kits.  He was set right up next to me.  He had done some very nice work
>on his models and was quite proud of them (as well he should).  I asked
>him if he had made the "appropriate" modifications to the kits that
>would make them "better".  He did not understand and then I went on to
>explain my experiences with Aerotech models and how I had figured out
>some simple changes to the motor mount/engine-hook/baffel-system that
>would increase reliability and flexibility.  I also explained that I had

Okay, some of us _are_ anxious to know about these things! (BTW, I'm an NAR
type, not a Tripoli type :-) How about letting us in on the details, please?

Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets