HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wixer!cactus.org!wixer!pro-smof.cts.com!shiva@cactus.org (System Smof)
Newsgroups: alt.zines
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Date: 26 Jan 1993 10:13:59 -0600
Organization: The SMOF-BBS: Science Fiction Online Since 1985 [512-467-7317]
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

chavis@thumper..bellcore.com (Dennis Chavis) writes:

>This whole "zine" thing sounds like a trick from alt.shanagans(spelling?).
>I wonder
>
>Dennis
>

Which "zine" thing are you talking about? Factsheet 5? That's not a hoax.
 ____________________________________________________________________
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|    Internet: wixer!pro-lep!pro-smof!shiva@cs.utexas.edu     |   |   |
\________________________________|____________________________|______/
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Xref: sparky alt.zines:412 rec.mag:341 soc.motss:58764 alt.postmodern:2881 alt.slack:3967 alt.music.hardcore:1142 alt.cyberpunk:7227 alt.homosexual:697 alt.thrash:2176 alt.vampyres:2299 alt.fandom.misc:93
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,soc.motss,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.homosexual,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc,alt.startrek
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:28:52 GMT
Followup-To: alt.fandom.misc
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison

Do a lot of people a favor, please, and edit your Newsgroups:
line so this cross-post from hell ceases to appear in soc.motss.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: sdavido@opie.bgsu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.zines
Subject: Give Mike a Break
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:31:47 GMT
Organization: Bowling Green State University

Just to be fair to Mike G., not many people knew Hudson Luce was a bad bet when
he first made a bid for Factsheet 5. In fact, not many people made a bid for
the magazine (as I understand it), so he may have been a desperate choice to
keep the Zine in production. I heard some whispers in Cinti that he was not
quite reliable, but I doubt that sort of talk would have reached Mike. 
 

(Although I was once at a convention of some sort, and at a table commented to
someone that I had seen their Zine before. Since I had said I was from
Cincinnati, and it didn't travel that far, he asked where, and I told him it
was from when I had reviewed Zine's for FS5. Someone else piped up with "Yeah,
I heard that was a good Zine. Whatever happened to it?" In unison the editor
and I said "Hudson Luce.")

 
-Solomon
Newsgroups: alt.zines
From: docgen@hardy.u.washington.edu (Dan Braimage)
Newsgroups: alt.zines
Subject: Culture Shuck
Date: 27 Jan 1993 06:18:51 GMT
Organization: Deprogram
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu
Summary: Send $1, get a zine.


Culture Shuck is a hard copy zine 12 pages long. (8 1/2 by 11, xeroxed.)
On the cover is Commander Koenig and the comics code seal of approval, but it
isn't really approved by the comics code. Culture Shuck emphasizes reprinting
from obscure sources, and some of the technological info could be considered
hack/phreak. It contains pieces of a Xtian coloring book, a shortwave manual,
a Muzak record jacket, foncard instructions, a stock footage catalog, a frat 
review sheet, old DC comics, the soundtrack to Battlefield Earth by 
L. Ron Hubbard, an internet worm report, the record of movie "Joe". 
One page is dedicated to reprinting a letter from Jerry Falwell in its 
entirety.

Send $1 in cash or stamps (or a trade) to the address below. Address mail to
me, Deprogram, preferably not to Culture Shuck.


	Deprogram, pob 45622 Seattle WA 98145
<><<><<><><><<><><>>><><<<><><><<><><>>><><><><><><><>>><><><><><><><>><><<><<>
"I'm not much of an actor, I have enough trouble just pretending to be me."
	-George Harrison
---__-_-__-___-__--_----__-__--_----__---__-------__-_-_-____--_---____-____--_
THE ERA AND TIME OF THIS STORY IS UNKNOWN.
AFTER THE MOTHERSHIP "ARKANOID" WAS DESTROYED, A SPACECRAFT "VAUS" SCRAMBLED 
AWAY FROM IT.
BUT ONLY TO BE TRAPPED IN SPACE WARPED BY SOMEONE.....
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: pdm@ucrmath.ucr.edu (paul moore)
Newsgroups: alt.zines
Subject: Technology Works Issue 12
Summary: latest issue out now
Keywords: shameless plug
Date: 23 Jan 93 02:38:48 GMT
Organization: technology>>works


  T E C H N O L O G Y   W O R K S  # 1 2
  manmachinemusiczinemanmachinemusiczine

  Focused on the latest electronic/techno
  music and bands.  Issue 12 features 
  interviews with The Final Cut, Will,
  and the Vampire Rodents.  There are over
  100 reviews of cd's, zines, and videos
  in this issue.  Also some news and the 
  ever popular Industrial-DejaVu ["where'd
  they sample that from?"].  The first 500
  issues have a glorious full-color cover
  by Gerr!x who did a couple of the cassette
  covers for Biohazard(/pcb - now Contagion)
  and the covers on issues 9 & 10.  It's all
  yours for $2 (US), $2.50 (Canada), $3.00 
  (anywhere else).  [prices include postage,
  and must be in US funds.  checks payable to
  Paul Moore].  Mention the Net and receive
  a free high-contrast vinyl sticker that will 
  wow your rivethead cohorts.

            Technology Works
            PO Box 477 
            Placentia, CA 92670-0477
            USA

  [back issues are all available, ask for your
   copy of the full list]

  I grep'ed the text files for this issue and 
  found only three occurrences of the word 
  "industrial" and I think they were all appropriate.
 
>>>>>we watch and we wait...we watch and we wait>>>>>

pdm@ucrmath.ucr.edu         technology>>works          ...ucsd!ucrmath!pdm
[this account decomposes on 1 Feb 93...call 714.879.3792 is you need to
 get in touch with me about anything.  SnailMail: Po Box 477, Placentia,
 CA 92670-0477, USA]
-- 
pdm@ucrmath.ucr.edu         technology>>works          ...ucsd!ucrmath!pdm
[this account decomposes on 1 Feb 93...call 714.879.3792 is you need to
 get in touch with me about anything.  SnailMail: Po Box 477, Placentia,
 CA 92670-0477, USA]
Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,soc.motss,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.homosexual,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc,alt.startrek,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: ahrvid@stacken.kth.se (Ahrvid Engholm)
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Organization: Stacken Computer Club, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:31:08 GMT

Comment to a posting by Bob Conrad:
  In a posting about fanzines you say that the word fanzine "originally
came from sci-fi rags in the early 70's". This is not correct.
  It was invented by science fiction-fans (please avoid the word "sci-fi"!)
but it was in 1941, already. An American sf-fan by the name Louis Russell
Chauvenet is said to have coined the word this year. You can find the
information in Harry Warner jr's book All Our Yesterdays, which is a
historical work describing the history of sf-fandom (ISBN 911682-00-7,
Library of Congress Catalog No 69-17980). My edition is from Advent
Publishers, Chicago, and you can read about the origin of the word
"fanzine" on page 41: "New rods of fandom that are pretty much limited
to the field itself are numerous. 'Fanzine' and 'prozine' were discovered
after years of striving to find euphonious, fast terms for fan magazine
and professional magazine. Ironically, the stone deaf Louis Russell
Chauvenet devised those perfect words, around 1941, after many fans
had tried uselessly to poularize ugly words like 'fanmag' or Freudian
terms like 'fmz'.
  Both the book's author, Mr Warner, and the inventor of the word, Mr
Chauvenet, are alive and I can get their (snail-mail) addresses if
anyone is interested in further investigations in this matter.
  The first fanzines, however, came many years before the word "fanzine"
was invented. Sf-fans were involved with amateur magazine publishing
already in the early 30's (possibly the late 20's - after a quick leaf-
through of All Our Yesterdays I can't find the exact reference). I won't
say that the first fanzine-like publications were by sf-fans, because
that can't possibly be true. What is true, though, is that sf-fans have
a long, long history of publishing fanzines.
  I would also like to point out that sf-fanzines must be considered
to have played an important role in inspiring other fanzines. It seems
likely, for instance, that sf-fanzines inspired the first comics
fanzines since the editors often were involved in both sf and comics.
And from there, it isn't impossible to imagine that fanzine publishing
migrated to music. The publishing of fanzines is still very popular
in sf circles, with several thousands of titles every year. I would
strongly argue against the position that punk or rock fanzines would
be the most important cathegory of fanzines, considering for instance
the very complex culture that has developed around sf-fanzines.
  Best,
  
  Ahrvid Engholm
  editor of SF-Journalen
  (leading sf-newszine in Sweden)
  ahrvid@stacken.kth.se or ahrvid@sfbbs.edvina.se

Ps. Please direct any comments that you consider important to my mailbox.
I don't scan all newsgroups all the time...



Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: sokay@cyclone.mitre.org (Stephen J. Okay)
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean, VA
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:09:48 GMT

In article <1k7nk5INN17u@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa704@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jennifer Engel) writes:
>
>re: zines are only "punk" if they aren't sold for money, which is when they
>become minature magazines
>
>
>
>so how do you expect to produce one? doing mine myself, and having access
>to free copying, the postage is enough to warrant asking for money. now, i
>think something like a dollar is reasonalbe, what about these zies that as
>for 3, 5, + dollars? get real. i wouldn't pay that and i won't ask youto
>pay that for mine. 

I certainly wouldn't ask people to pay that for mine either!
Hell, I was blown away when somebody sent me $1 for a past issue of AC.

---Steve
-- 
---------
sokay@cyclone.mitre.org
		"Your Mind....My Playground" ---me 
Xref: sparky alt.zines:386 rec.mag:323 soc.motss:58200 alt.postmodern:2850 alt.slack:3875 alt.music.hardcore:1078 alt.cyberpunk:7153 alt.homosexual:657 alt.thrash:2149 alt.vampyres:2249 alt.fandom.misc:72
From: pauls@css.itd.umich.edu (Paul Southworth)
Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,soc.motss,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.homosexual,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Date: 23 Jan 1993 20:06:25 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan ITD Consulting and Support Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: stimpy.css.itd.umich.edu

In article <C1BGJM.89s@well.sf.ca.us> jerod23@well.sf.ca.us (Jerod Pore) writes:
>If you wish to pick up the files that comprise F5-E via anonymous ftp, the
>site is moving to red.css.itd.umich.edu (along with practically every other
>radical ezine in cyberspace).  ftp over and cruise around.  I'm sure that
>pauls put the files in some logically named place.  My file names are not,


The Factsheet Five is stored on red.css.itd.umich.edu in the directory
/F5E.  Other zines are found in /zines, with a few symlinks to Rita's
'zines from ftp.eff.org in /EFF.journals, periodically updated.  The political
materials, including many radical political e-zines are in /poli.


Paul Southworth                    |              ftp red.css.itd.umich.edu
(Not speaking for)                 | zines, radical politics, news, fiction
Information Technology Division    |            IP Address:  141.211.182.91
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor  |              386BSD 0.1 Archive Server
From: johansc@hedda.uio.no (Johan Schimanski)
Newsgroups: alt.zines
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Date: 27 Jan 93 10:18:11 GMT
Followup-To: alt.zines,rec.mag,soc.motss,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.homosexual,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc,alt.startrek
Organization: Comparative Literature - Oslo

In article <1993Jan25.000414.25673@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>,
bobc@pyramid.unr.edu (Bob Conrad) wrote:

> for an upcoming zine show.  it said "fanzines=artzines, homozines, litzines,
> femzines, musiczines, personalzines, punkzines, comiczines" or something
> to that effect.  to read it you'd get the impression on "punkzines" are
> some little bastard faction of fanzines, when in reality fanzines have been
> nurtured and hyped almost exclusively by the punk scene for the last
> 15 years!  sure, they word "fanzine" originally came from sci-fi rags
> in the early 70s but it's been punk culture that kept the word alive
> and then pushed it to its presnt possibilities.  it's been the punk
> culture that nurtured and revitalized the small underground press the same
> way it nurtured and revitalized vinyl and cassette tapes and film and
> fashion and rock-n-roll and, to some extent, radical art and radical
> politics....END  (there's more but you get the point)

So you reckon that punkzines should be enchrined in some sort of privileged
category, carried around by stretch limo, etc? Well, all of the punkzines I
have seen (and liked) have been SOLD for MONEY. Whereas the sf/fannish zine
scene has been around since 1930 (already reaching a large production rate
by the 40s), developing a culture which set the criteria for much of the
rest of zinedom, and mostly subsisted on distribution WITHOUT money. I
think this is a challenge to the status of punkzines. Are they really
fanzines, or just amateur magazines?

Here in Scandinavia, production of punkzines reached a peak around 1982,
but in the amount/quality of material produced, never challenged the
(albeit lesser known) sf/fannish zine scene, especially in Sweden.

But this is just rhetoric from my part. I don't think anybody has anything
to win by putting one form of zine on a pedestal. I think all genres should
be mentioned in little lists just like the one you quote. Also, I do not
disagree with you main point, that punk culture has reinscribed the
underground.

Johan Schimanski             johan.schimanski@inl.uio.no
pb.1015 Blindern               N-0315 OSLO, Norway
+47-2-22 18 38 00                    +47-2-22 85 40 37
my love is like a liquid    it flow fitful day and night
Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,soc.motss,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.homosexual,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc,alt.startrek
From: chavis@thumper..bellcore.com (Dennis Chavis)
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Reply-To: chavis@thumper.UUCP (Dennis Chavis)
Organization: Bellcore MRE
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 15:32:21 GMT

This whole "zine" thing sounds like a trick from alt.shanagans(spelling?).
I wonder

Dennis

Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,soc.motss,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.homosexual,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:59:21 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1k6chvINN866@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Robert Drake) writes:
>
>>(stuff about "selling our culture back to us" deleted)
>>
>>I dress the same as I have for two decades -- cheap, comfort-
>>able and functional.   Fashion is bullshit.   People who
>>concern themselves with it are idiots
>
>uh.... you sound at least a little concerned with it yrself

   Bad phrasing on my part.  "People who follow fashions
   and attempt to be fashionable are idiots".


---peter

Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,soc.motss,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.homosexual,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc,alt.startrek
From: cate@brahms.udel.edu (Catherine M Leonard)
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 04:45:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.000414.25673@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> bobc@pyramid.unr.edu (Bob Conrad) writes:
>to read it you'd get the impression on "punkzines" are
>some little bastard faction of fanzines, when in reality fanzines have been
>nurtured and hyped almost exclusively by the punk scene for the last
>15 years! . . .
>the point being roughly equivalent to thinking twice about your doc martens
>and nirvana before running around like some sort of counter-cultural icon...
>
>got it mr. major label???


Major resonance here. I was looking through two very mainstream fashion
mags this weekend that had features on the Grunge Explosion in the High
$$$ fashion markets. Clothes that I wore back in the 70s and that my
younger friends have been purchasing from Goodwill for the last couple of
years are being manufactured ( I WILL NOT say designed) by Lagerfeld,
Ellis et al. A tiny knit top that sold for $9 in 1973 and $.50 at Goodwill
today is priced out at $300+ from the big name folks. The models have
brightly colored hair and wear Doc Martens. I feel ripped off. It *almost*
enough to make me toss my combat boots. At least the American models
aren't sporting body piercing. Yet. <sigh> That would be too much.
(although I've seen European models with pierced noses)

Guess it's about time to re-invent myself again. (If it's good enuf for
Anais Nin I guess it's good enuf for me. :-) )

Cate
cate@brahms.udel.edu


Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,soc.motss,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.homosexual,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc,alt.startrek
From: aa704@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jennifer Engel)
Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Latest F5 info
Date: 28 Jan 1993 04:32:04 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa704@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jennifer Engel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


re: zines are only "punk" if they aren't sold for money, which is when they
become minature magazines



so how do you expect to produce one? doing mine myself, and having access
to free copying, the postage is enough to warrant asking for money. now, i
think something like a dollar is reasonalbe, what about these zies that as
for 3, 5, + dollars? get real. i wouldn't pay that and i won't ask youto
pay that for mine. 

everyone should stop worrying about what "punk" is and trying to define it
and just live their life. 

i'm not punk by charging for my zine? i'm glad.
-- 
Claude Debussy:
"Music is the space between the notes."
Newsgroups: alt.zines,rec.mag,soc.motss,alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.music.hardcore,alt.cyberpunk,alt.homosexual,alt.thrash,alt.vampyres,alt.fandom.misc,alt.startrek,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: steve@mikejag.wimsey.bc.ca (Steve (PrettyBoy) Barclay)
Subject: Re: fanzine history (was Latest F5 info)
Organization: mikejag (mike) is a private system in Vancouver, BC, Canada
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 23:57:24 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.194427.3242@crd.ge.com> meltsner@crd.ge.com writes:
>
>
>I believe Chauvenet is still alive, as is Harry Warner, Jr.  I'd have

Harry Warner Jr. Is most definately alive.  He writes monthly to the B.C.
Science Fiction Magazine.  As a matter of fact, he gave me my first words
of praise when my first peice of fiction ever published appeared in the
BCFAzine.  I have an address for him should anyone care to write to him.

Steve


-- 
###############################################################################
# You have been listening to the erotic daydreams of an earthworm as it was   #
# sucked backwards through a French milking machine.  - George Carlin         #
###############################################################################.
Newsgroups: alt.zines
From: jerod23@well.sf.ca.us (Jerod Pore)
Subject: Peace, folks
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 03:52:16 GMT



First of all, all the attacks on Bob are somewhat unwarranted as he was
merely posting an editorial (of sorts) from the zine Cometbus.

Secondly, Aaron Cometbus was certainly most incorrect with his assertation
that sfanzines started in the '70s.  As has been correctly posted, they did
start in the '30s.

Finally, I'm convinced that zines qualify as Invisible Literature in that
many (but not all) of the readers of a certain type of zine (Punk, SF&F,
radical politics, whatever) might be utterly unaware of the existance of
other types of zines for other types of interests.
From: jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.soft-sys.tooltalk
Subject: Re: Heuristics - TT Applicability
Date: 21 Jan 93 14:39:08 GMT
Organization: Investment Management Services Inc., NYC

Frank Greco <fgreco@shearson.com> writes:

	Does anyone have some heuristics as to when/where an
	application program would use ToolTalk v.s. RPC ...

I see ToolTalk as being a high-level "instruction" mechanism.  Do this,
do that, open this file, load this image, etc.  Small, simple
instructions.  I don't see it as a general purpose data transfer
mechanism.  It's more like a generalization of X Windows properties --
but doesn't constrain you to a single display.  Properties are nice for
signaling events and instructions between clients, but you wouldn't
want to copy 500k onto a property and tell another client to then read
the property, would you?

-----

As for your other question -- does anyone read this group -- I'd say
that lots of people read it, but not that many people a) care or b)
have a lot of experience with it.  Not that it's a bad thing, just that
the task it is best at -- desktop integration, IMHO -- is not something
a lot of people are working on.  Often with distributed systems, we see
the need to do both kinds of work -- "instruction" and "transfer" ...
and it's often easier to add "instruction" to your existing IPC
mechanism.

Now, for ISVs, on the other hand, supporting ToolTalk in terms of
interoperability ought to be a primary concern.  But for that all you
do is figure out how to integrate it and then leave it alone :-)

/jordan
Newsgroups: alt.soft-sys.tooltalk
From: noname@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (  )
Subject: File Scoping
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:05:15 GMT


Hello, TooltalkER,
 
Sometime ago I posted a question regarding my problem while
using Tooltalk File Scoping. 
  
I want to thank Mark Soloway and Frank Greco. They pointed out several 
important places in Tooltalk that might affect the File Scoping 
function, such as "real_path_name" etc.
 
As Mark suggested, I set the environment variable TT_DM_DEBUG=8
and looked at the traced data. I found one of the place that caused
the function fail. In dm_server_svc.C, there is a place hard coded
the file system table as /etc/mtab. However, it is a different file
name in our machine (/etc/mnttab in UNIX SVR4.0 2.0). 
  
Unfortunately, my problem is still not solved. Two program running on
two machine (using file-scoping) still can not pass data to each
other. I noticed when the application startup, the rpc.ttdbserverd
created a directory TT_DB. Is there any way that I can direct the
location that the TT_DB be created? Any environmental variable
should be set? When two app run on the same machine, they work fine
(ie., can pass data to each other). However, if the app try to send data 
to the other app in the OTHER machine, it does not work and after a
few time message_send, the tooltalk hangs (or data queue full?). Kill
the app and re-start the app, the app works again. But, it hangs after
a few times message_send, and so on. (I mean the Toooltalk function
hangs but the application is still running)
  
There are many information in the rpc.ttdbserverd traced data 
(with env TT_DM_DEBUG=8). Does anybody have idea how to interprate
those information? 
  
Kevin Feng
ckf@hover.att.com