HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Some sources for JRRT
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:20:55 GMT

In article <bergland.19.727541680@edb.uib.no>, bergland@edb (Magne Bergland) writes:
>In article <1ji3ugINNqqv@uwm.edu> paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:

>>A good *starter* book for this discussion is Lin Carter's _Tolkien: A Look
>>Behind the Lord of the Rings_ (Ballantine Books, 1969).  He devotes chapter
>>14 to Tolkien's basic sources.
>
>I haven't read Carter, but I'd rather recommmend Tom Shippey's _The Road to 
>Middle-earth_ as a basis. He has an appendix called "Tolkien's Sources: The 
>True Tradition". 
>
>Please note that Tolkien thought source studies were irrelevant and 
>unimportant, he may have been right! Though I won't say no studies of 
>what traditions Tolkien drew upon in his subject matter are interesting, 
>the "source studies" seems to have made up an uproportionally large bit of 
>the scholarly Tolkien studies (esp. in the US perhaps).

The Carter book has the advantage that it looks beyond Tolkien's northern roots
to the very concept of heroic adventure, examining medieval romances and such
as well as classical and pre/non-classical mythology.

Shippey limits himself too much, IMO.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: jscosta@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Joseph Costa)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien LP
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:16:52 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <C19pC0.49E@agora.rain.com> elana@agora.rain.com (Elana Beach) writes:
>I have an LP entitled:  "J.R.R. Tolkien Reads and Sings His 'The Lord Of The
>Rings', 'The Two Towers''Return Of The King'.  The label is Caedmon and the
>catalog number is TC 1478.  Looks like it's copyright 1975.
>
>Just curious.  Is this thing rare?
>
>E.

  Nope. These recordings have been released in various disguises for many
years. In fact, I just found the latest incarnation at the local Borders
bookstore. It is a four-cassette boxed set called "The JRR Tolkien Audio
Collection". It contains readings by JRRT from The Hobbit and all three
LOTR books, as well as an hour-long reading of the tale of Beren and Luthien
by Christopher Tolkien (awesome!). ISBN # is 1-55994-675-X.

Joseph S. Costa, Jr.
INTERNET: jscosta@afterlife.ncsc.mil
PRODIGY : RFTJ78A
------------------------------------
Then did Tinuviel begin such a dance as neither she
nor any other sprite or fay or elf danced ever before or
has done since, and after a while even Melko's gaze was
held in wonder. Round the hall she fared, swift as a
swallow, noiseless as a bat, magically beautiful as only
Tinuviel ever was, and now she was at Melko's side, now
before him, now behind, and her misty draperies touched
his face and waved before his eyes, and the folk that sat
about the walls or stood in that place were whelmed one by
one in sleep, falling down into deep dreams of all that their
ill hearts desired.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Language Origins
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 17:17:33 GMT

In article <cos.727820671@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu> cos@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Ofer Inbar) writes:
>craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson) writes:
>>OTOH, the few words of the speech of the Rohirrim in LOTR that are not
>>translated into the Westron are perfectly good Anglo-Saxon (OTTOMH:
>>"_Westhu Theoden hal_!" (Hale be thou, Theoden ~ Hail, Theoden)).  The
>>proper names of course are not attested AS names, but have a distinct
>>AS flavor.
>
>I recall reading Tolkien's explanation somewhere that the Anglo-Saxon
>was *not* the actual language of Rohan, but rather a translation of
>it.  In the same way, Westron is not actually English, but is
>translated into English in the books so that we can understand them.
>Tolkien decided that since the relationship between Westron and the
>language of Rohan in their world was equivalent to the relationship
>between English and Anglo-Saxon in ours (one having developed partly
>from the other), since he translated Westron to English, he would
>translate Rohan to Anglo-Saxon for us readers.
>

	Yes, that was Tolkien's explanation for his use of Anglo-Saxon.
As I've said before, however, it strikes me as a rather "side-stepping" 
explanation, considering how much like the Anglo-Saxons (as described in
literature in any case) the Rohirrim actually are.  The same might be said
about the various modern English dialects Tolkien uses for "translations"
of Westron elsewhere.  Is it mere convenience of translation that Tolkien
has the hobbits, who in many ways are a romanticized vision of the English
yeomanry, speak a 19th century rural dialect, or might there not be something
more to it?  Considering, furthermore, that Tolkien never actually "invented" 
a unique language for the Rohirrim or of Westron in the same way that he 
invented his Elvish languages, I think we have to take this comment about 
"translation" with a serious grain of salt.  

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 00:15:56 GMT

In article <1k3r23INN7rk@digex.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>A little less flippantly, does anyone recall whether Tol Eressea
>was included in the restriction on the Numenoreans: ie, were they
>forbidden from landing there as well as landing at Valinor
>proper?

Yup. According to the Akallabeth, the Numenoreans were forbidded to
travel west out of the sight of Numenor. From this limit, the
far-sighted sailors could just barely see Tol Eressea. Therefore the
limit was presumably halfway between Numenor and Tol Eressea.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits, again
Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:55:07 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <C17vDD.CJJ@cck.coventry.ac.uk> mjw@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Alien) writes:
>BTW thanks for all the stuff about Saxons and modern English! I thought everyone
>knew that English comes from Saxon (as well as Latin and Norman French) but
>if that was JRRT's influence then that's another feather to his cap.
>  Point to consider tho': lots of Robin Hood type films make him a Saxon
>  hero opposed to Norman tyranny ,so it's obvious that the saxon's identity
>  was well known at least by the 40's


And don't forget _Ivanhoe_, about a Saxon noble-man, which was printed 
in the early 19th century.  (And had Robin Hood in it as well.)  So
I don't think we can argue that people forgot that the Saxons ruled
England before the Normans.
From: proberts@castle.ed.ac.uk (P Roberts)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:59:16 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

I seem to remember reading somehwere (Silmarillion?) that the dwarves
believed that when they died their spirits were gathered into the halls
of Aule (I think I'm remembering the right name).  Also it states in the
appendices of LotR that Gimli took ship with Legolas in order to see
Galhadriel again and, this is where my memory starts to fail, doesn't it
imply, if not state, something about her, being one of the most powerful
of the eldar, interceding for him?
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 29 Jan 93 00:42:26 GMT
 <1993Jan26.185313.7719@netcom.com>  <1k9r3tINN45p@digex.digex.com>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1k9r3tINN45p@digex.digex.com>
dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

> In article <1993Jan26.185313.7719@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
> >
> >As I read it, if you have the Ring, it sort of mummifies you-- you
> >don't age, and become all stretched out. These effect persist, to an
> >extent, even after you lose the Ring (in LOTR, Gollum had been without
> >the ring for 80 years, but didn't seem aged). But when the Ring was
> >destroyed, all of this was undone.
> 
> Gollum would have lived somewhere around 90-100 years without the ring.
> I think he could have been a biological 100 year old hobbit in LOTR.  So 
> I'm not sure that this example helps.
> 
> As another example, Bilbo in the Many Meetings chapter (after Frodo 
> first reaches Rivendell) strikes me as a 90-100 year old hobbit, which
> is roughly the number of years that he has lived without the ring.
> 
> In summary, I don't think that having owned the ring for a short period
> confers immortality on you.  I think that ownership of the ring makes
> the years in which you own it not count against your age.
> 
Agreed...remember too, that Gollum had the ring a good deal longer than
Bilbo, so perhaps the 'mummifying' effect that Andrew suggests may
linger a bit after separation from the ring...also, Gollum was a tough
ol' bugger, made so by centuries of hand to mouth living at the roots
of the Misty Mts...not like Bilbo who was quite content and comfortable
in Bag End.

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Language Origins
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:20:32 GMT

In article <C13pyt.MyF@panix.com>, os2man@panix (Larry Salomon Jr.) writes:
>Does anyone know from where the Elven and Dwarven languages are derived?
>Dwarven *definately* sounds Middle-Eastern and Elven sounds like what I
>imagine European would sound like if there were a single language for that
>continent.
>
>Any ideas and references are appreciated.

Don't have the references at hand, but there is some discussion of the two
major Elven languages in the Carpenter biography.

Quenya was inspired by Finnish.

Sindarin was inspired by Welsh.

Khuzdul does have a Semitic feel, although Bombadil's Elvish appelation Iarwain
ben-Adar does, as well, so that may be reaching.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: chesky@stanmusial.austin.ibm.com ()
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Organization: IBM, Austin
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 01:23:24 GMT

>>But this raises a problem for me.  At the end of LOTR, Frodo and Bilbo
>>take the last ship to the Undying Lands.  Later, the appendices tell us,
>>Sam took a ship west to join them.
>>
>>But if Hobbits are racially derived from men, isn't this a problem?
>>Aren't men strictly forbidden from going to the Undying Lands?
>
>As a general rule, yes. This seems to be an exception. But we have no
>indication that Bilbo and Frodo went to Valinor proper; my reading is
>that they went to Tol Eressea (aka "Elvenhome"), an island near
>Valinor.  This may count as a "suburb" of the Undying Lands, and the
>restriction may be less rigorous.
>-- 
>Andrew Solovay    

I thought the exception was made for Bilbo, Frodo and Sam because they 
had been ring bearers (I don't know about Gimli).  What I've always
wondered though, is if this was really an exception granted by the Valar 
as a reward for the sacrifice and hardship that they endured as ring 
bearers or whether, after possessing the Ring, they were truly immortal
creatures now so there is no exception being made at all.

Of course, we all know that as long as one possesses the Ring one will 
not age and die like a mere mortal, but what about after you lose or give 
up the Ring?  Are you still "immortal"?  Gollum is good evidence that maybe
this is the case.  He was what, 400...500 years old or something like
that at the time of LotR.  And he had been living something like 60 or 70
years after losing the Ring.  And he wasn't even senile, like Bilbo.  And
Bilbo, too lived for 20 years or so after giving the Ring to Frodo (of 
course his age wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility for Hobbits -- 
just food for thought).

IDHMBWMRN (I don't have my books with me right now), but I know this is 
talked about in LotR somewhere; I think in the "Shadow of the Past" chapter
in FotR.  Anybody know any relevant passages that would answer my question 
one way or another?

thanks,

Bill
squirrel.austin.ibm.com!chesky@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com
From: lerczak@acsu.buffalo.edu (Horse)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Date: 24 Jan 93 07:37:43 GMT
Organization: No Quarter

solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:

>Tolkien did that on a few other occasions. According to "The Hobbit",
>Bilbo invented the proverb "Escaping goblins to be caught by wolves",
>which comes down to us as "Out of the frying pan and into the fire".
>His father Bungo used to say "Third time pays for all", which (I
>presume) shortened to the modern "Third time's the charm".

also, look at the substantially longer poem about the cat and the fiddle in
the fellowship... i believe he even went so far as to say that this actually
DID predate what we know today. (i could look it up, but it is somewhere in
the same area as the poem itself)

>Andrew Solovay    


Horse
From: zombie@redeye.EBay.Sun.COM (zombie)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hello?
Date: 22 Jan 1993 18:01:01 GMT
Organization: None of your business
Distribution: world
Reply-To: zombie@redeye.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: redeye.ebay.sun.com

In article 5rC@cs.dal.ca,  boucher@ug.cs.dal.ca (Darren B. Boucher) writes:
> Surely there must be some other fans of this, my favorite story ever.
>I recently heard of the animated feature "Return of the King", is this
>a good quality telling of the book? 

It's garbage.  If I had not read the book, I would have had no idea what
was going on.

>I'm wondering if it is worth watching,
>I enjoyed "Lord of the Rings" which of course doesn't cover the 3rd book,
>I also saw "The Hobbit" but that was kind of lame.

Return of the King is even worse.  It is a lame combo of animation and
funky special effects.  I would love to see Steven Speilburg (sp?) give
it a shot!

zombie

---
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<>                    zombie@redeye.EBay.Sun.COM                    <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
From: phuag@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr C J Tilbury)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Fandom
Date: 21 Jan 1993 13:02:40 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: saffron.csv.warwick.ac.uk
Summary: Take it elsewhere (preferably to email)
Keywords: Eddings, Tolkien, Flamewar, quality of series.

In article <1993Jan20.215842.18883@rchland.ibm.com> BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com writes:

In article <1jk7npINNi3i@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl>, Szymon Sokol writes:

[text to the effect that the Belgariad is quite good, and he likes it, for a 
number of reasons.]

Then, in article <1993Jan20.215842.18883@rchland.ibm.com>, 
 BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com writes,

[text to the effect that the Belgariad series is mediocre, and he doesn't like 
it, for a number of reasons.]

Bill, I read the Tolkien group for intelligent dicussion of his works, and the 
Eddings group for the same ; I don't read them for flame wars on the relative
quality of the others texts.

I'm a a big fan of _both_ these authors works. If you want to 'discuss' the 
merits of Eddings works, I'd be only too happy to explain some of the finer
plot details, which it appears you may of missed (or did I misread your 
original article?)

Otherwise, followups to /dev/null. This isn't the place for a discussion of 
Eddings works. Try alt.fan.eddings.

				Chris.

PS. Apologies for hacking the quoted articles down to nothing - this pesky
news posting software just _refused_ to post the damn article with all that
included text.
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Date: 22 Jan 93 21:42:11 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir):

>In article <watson.727716248@mariner.sce.carleton.ca> watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson) writes:

>>If Led Zep was indeed quoting Tolkien, then Tolkien was probably
>>quoting Shakespeare ("All that glisters is not gold" - Merchant of
>>Venice, 1596) and/or Chaucer ("But al thyng which that shineth as the
>>gold/ Nis nat gold, as that I have herd it told" - Canterbury Tales,
>>c.1387).  And *they* were simply repeating an old Latin proverb: "Non
>>teneas aurum totum quod splendet ut aurum", which seems to be a
>>translation of something Aristotle said.

>>In other words: it's an ancient and well-known saying in Western
>>culture, and there's no reason think that JRRT was the specific source
>>for the line in the LZ song.

On the other hand, I think there's *every* reason to think that Tolkien was
having a bit of fun and suggesting that Aristotle, and all subsequent makers
of maxims, *really* got it originally from Bilbo Baggins, who coined the cliche
back in the pre-history of our world.  I seem to recall some comments in other
places in LOTR about aspects of Middle-Earth that persist into modern times
merely as vague memories or distorted legends.  (E.g. didn't Tolkien say
something about the typical portrayal of "elves" in the faerie sense being a
distorted memory of the real thing?)

Certainly Tolkien knew of the history of the phrase, I would think.

[Aside:  actually, a neat study could be made of the "proverbs of middle
 earth".  There are many phrases that occur in LOTR in dialogue that suggests
 that they are being uttered as well-known maxims.  "Faithful heart may have
 froward tongue"; "To crooked eyes, the truth may wear a wry face";  "All's
 well as ends better"; "Short cuts make long delays"; and so on.  Some of 
 these are just borrowed English (and earlier) proverbs, but some seem to be
 deliberate recastings of old ideas:  "Where will wants not, a way opens." ]

-- 
       David Tate        |"Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | That sends the screaming liner over it 
 Prof. of Story Problems | And spills the bleacher-dwellers from their seats."
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR |  	"Fenway Wall", Robert Frost          
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tiverson@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Thor Iverson)
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:51:48 GMT

In article <C18LF8.Hu1@acsu.buffalo.edu> lerczak@acsu.buffalo.edu (Horse) writes:
>rcb3654@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>
>>However,  Zep's most popular song, "Stairway to Heaven", has a reference to   
>>JRRT in that the lyrics go something like this (and there's a lady who's sure
>>**all that glitters is gold** and she's buying a stariway to heaven). 
>
>well, if you were to look at the song, it might be construed to be about
>galadriel in the specific, or at least the elves in the general. i haven't
>listened to it in a bit, but i seem to also recall a line in there that goes
>something to the effect of "there's a feeling i get, when i look to the west,
>and my spirit is crying for leaving." kinda screams ELVES. at least to me...

As the keeper of the Led Zeppelin mailing list's FAQL, I suppose I should
respond...

Plant has stated that Old English myths were floating around in his head
while Page and Jones were working out the song on acoustic guitar, recorder,
and keyboard.  He claims to have suddenly looked down in surprise to see that
he had written, in a flash of inspiration, "There's a lady who's sure all that
glitters is gold, and she's buying a stairway to heaven."  No mention of any
kind of Tolkien influence has ever been mentioned by the band or its many
biographers in reference to this song.

Thor Iverson
From: szymon@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl (Szymon Sokol)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: arwen giving Aragorn the standard of Gondor and Elendil-- where
Date: 21 Jan 1993 15:40:58 +0100
Organization: University of Mining & Metallurgy
NNTP-Posting-Host: galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Michael C Voorhis (mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU) wrote:

: I was reading through the Return of the King last night, and came to the
: point where Aragorn triumphantly arrives in the ships he took from the
: Corsairs.  The standard he flies from his ship, which Arwen made for him,
: is of course mentioned, and I tried to find the place where she gave it to
: him, having forgotten exactly where it was.

Actually, she didn't give it to Aragorn - she *send* it to him. The standard
was brought to Dunharrow by the Gray Company - the Dunedains of the North
(personally by a relative of Aragorn - I think his name was Halbarad [?]).

-- 
U     U  M     M  M     M  Szymon Sokol -- Network Manager
U     U  MM   MM  MM   MM  University of Mining and Metallurgy, Computer Center
U     U  M M M M  M M M M  ave. Mickiewicza 30, 30-059 Krakow, POLAND
 UUUUU   M  M  M  M  M  M  TEL. +48 12 338100 EXT. 2885    FAX +48 12 338907
From: mcspikta@dct.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Questions AFfter First Silmarillion Reading
Date: 28 Jan 93 15:52:52 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology

In article <1k4of0INNn84@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca>, peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters) writes:
> Jeff Liss writes (about The Silmarillion):

> 
> (Does anyone other than me think the story of Turin would make a cool movie?)
 
    They might have to leave out the part about the incest though.

> Drin
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "I think I think, therefore I think I am." 
> - Descartes' failed attempt to discard the notion of objective reality.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Language Origins
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:20:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.113334.1048@odin.diku.dk>, klaus@diku (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>
>Khuzdul is semitic in structure. The consonant-combination kh-z-d means
>dwarf. Words such as dwarf (khazad) and dwarven (khuzdul) are made by adding
>wovels (and the occasional consonant). Semitic languages work in that way
>too.

I'd not noticed that feature of Khuzdul.  Comes of spending too much time with
Indo-European and Native American languages, I guess.

I find it interesting that the -ul ending, forming an adjective, is used to
form Balin's patronymic on his tomb:  Balin Fundinul, Balin son of Fundin.
Until you pointed out the adjectival nature of the ending I had always taken it
to be a genitive "of Fundin."
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien