HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: v128juxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (SCHUYJUANNAH)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson?
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:48:00 GMT
Organization: SUNY@Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct5.104905.1@acad3.alaska.edu>, fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks) writes...
>In article <1992Oct5.175757.5652@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq) writes:
>> Now, I don't mean to start a flame war, but is it true that while
>> the Independence movement was going on, and Thomas Jefferson
>> wrote "All men are created equal....", that he had slaves and 
>> concubines, and plagiarized some of the writings of John Locke?

The book by Fawn Brodie, 'The Intimate Thomas Jefferson' (or some title like 
that, at least the author is correct) goes into detail about Jefferson's
domestic life with one of his slaves, Sally Hemings. Some people think nothing
of it, but the biography is very interesting nonetheless.

About the writings of John Locke....well, Jefferson and many of his contemp-
oraries were influenced by Locke's works. I don't know if he intentionally
took Lock verbatim, but most of the ideas expressed in the Declaration of
Independence are indeed Lockean.

Most Southerners of Jefferson's time had slaves cos it was their economic 
structure (tho' a bad on at that), and Jefferson was no exception. As to what
they did with or to their slaves is none of my business...  :)
Xref: sparky soc.history:8673 soc.culture.indian:32543
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture/ British Misuse Of Sati.
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:59:11 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Sep28.055120.1578@ecst.csuchico.edu>, vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu) writes:
> In article <Bv9MHt.AIM@ucunix.san.uc.edu> ghayalm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
# ##	An early example of generally exploitative colonialism doing
# ##good might be the British suppression of {\it sati} in 1829.  {\it
# ##Sati} is the Hindu custom of a widow throwing herself on her husband's
# ##funeral pyre.  Its suppression was triggered by Indian widows fleeing
# ##to the British to avoid the enforced suicide.  This illustrates that
# ##the British already had a reputation in India as people to whom one
# ##could flee to avoid some kinds of injustice.  Before suppressing {\it
# ##sati} the British argued among themselves about whether the evil of
# ##the custom justified interfering with Indian religion.
# ##
# #Sati was basically eliminated by Indian leaders like Mahtma Gandhi
# #the British did not want to interfere as they thought hindus would
# #object thus rock the British rule in India. 
# #The British had no reputation for justice in India, in fact they
# #were known to take over Indian kingdoms unfairly and prevent
# #Indian industries from functioning, that's why most Indians
# #fought for freedom passionately during the British rule.
# 
# The British in reality were not even saviours of the Indian widows.  There 
# are many examples of the British soldiers having raped widows after having
# so-calledly rescuing them from the funeral pyres of their dead husbands.

Hmmm.  Manoj Ghayalod claims that the British didn't interfere.
Vivek Prabhu claims that they did interfere, but raped the widows
so prevented from being burned.  One of them has to be wrong
about this.

# vivek@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu),
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Bush: War on Drugs, tax cut->bigger deficit.  Clinton: War on Drugs, spending
increase->bigger deficit.  What a great choice.
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: nrai@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (neeraj.rai)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 15:11:17 GMT

In article <BvBFrr.1oC@ucunix.san.uc.edu> ghayalm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
>In article <1992Sep28.164402.12608@kth.se> d89-jsp@nada.kth.se (Jan Sparrendahl) writes:
>>In article <28SEP199209501550@jane.uh.edu>, mece21x@jane.uh.edu (Yesudas, Michael) writes:
>>|> In article <1992Sep28.055120.1578@ecst.csuchico.edu>, vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu) writes...
>>|> >In article <Bv9MHt.AIM@ucunix.san.uc.edu> ghayalm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
>>
>>	The difference, of course, being that the widowmurder
>>	was an effect of a crual tradition and law in India 
>>	and the	aleged rape being a criminal offence comitted
>>	by a perverted indevidual.
>>	One could ponder wether the present problem with bride-
>                                                         ^^^^^^
>>	prises is related in any way?
>        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I could not understand you perfectly here.  The point I am trying
>to make here is that the British did not stop widow burning in
>India, great Indian leaders did that.  And also widow burning was
>not as widespread as believed by most people it was performed by
>a few perverted individuals (like you say).


	In support of Manoj's statement, "Tradition of Sait" was banned
due to efforts of Raja Ram Mohan Rai - great Social reformer in 18th or
19th century. In order to do this Raja Ram Mohan Rai learnt Sanskrit,
read all the eternal scriptures of Hinduism and  challenged the religious
priests at that time who were for "SAATI" in court. I think that justice
system implemented by Britishers was certainly helpful. Raja Ram Mohan
Rai was truly a religious scholar. He learnt Arabic, Latin, Sannskrit, English
and a few other languages so that he could read original scriptures of
a religion rather than interpretations.



-Neeraj Rai


Xref: sparky soc.history:8795 soc.culture.celtic:6511 sci.archaeology:2577
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:18:46 GMT
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <14679@chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>    The Pro-Europeans like the thought of their ancestors as "conquering 
>  giants".
>
>    The Anti-Europeans like it as it is an 'example' of the 'fact' that 
>  Europeans are, have been and always will be a gang of bloodthirsty nasties.
>

I'm afraid if there ever was a race of humans that wasn't capable
of bloodthirsty nastiness, they long ago vanished, probably down
the gullets of the ancestors of the rest of us.



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Who Burned The Parthenon To Achieve Fame?
Summary: by way of recompense for blowing it ...
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:25:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsm.1992Oct3.202531.13266
Organization: AT&T


The ghost of Sigmund Freud is grinning at me, in that "repressing" the
name of the Ephesos arsonist (Herostratos, as I recall someone posting)
allowed my combinatorial subconscious to cheap associate it with the
name of Herodotos.  As a way to make amends, I've been trying to locate
the source of the story.  Plutarch's biography of Alexander mentions
the temple burning, but gives no name or motive.  Arrian and Curtius
Rufus both start with Alexander's accession to the throne.  I suspect
that the place to look is book 17 of Didoros Siculus, but I just got
stymied.  Going up to our library, I find a Loeb edition of Diodoros
in 10 volumes, 9 of which look like they have never been read -- and
volume #8, the one I was looking for, has disappeared!  We have on
hand also an interesting volume in the Early English Texts series,
with a wonderful translation by Skelton, but alas it only extends to
the early, still mythological, book 5.  The standard Alexander bio-
graphies (like Green's recent one) don't deign to mention the inci-
dent, following a tone set by Grote a century and a half ago, that
we are too scientific to even bother with the elements of folktale
and the Alexander romance.  Oh well; I'll keep an eye out for the
Diodoros elsewhere and keep looking.
-- 
Michael L. Siemon		   "Oh, stand, stand at the window,
					As the tears scald and start;
mls@usl.com			   You shall love your crooked neighbor
standard disclaimer			With your crooked heart."
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 23:22:37 GMT

In article <JMC.92Sep27173436@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:

>	7. Of course, the West has contributed its share of bad ideas
>and regrettable cultural phenomena.  These include Marxism, various
>forms of racism, Fascism, the balance of nature, Heavy Metal and
				^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>multiculturalism.

Hmmm. Stipulating that such balance is subject to frequent local - and 
occasional widespread - perturbations, would you care to defend your inclusion
of this in such a list?
o				Chuck Smythe

Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: Veeramany.Sthanumurthy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Veeramany Sthanumurthy)
Subject: Western clutter (was: World Culture and Western Culture)
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:06:07 GMT

[Not having sufficient time is not the only reason for this
insubstantial response to the original article, which has not
been included in this follow-up.]

Prof. McCarthy I am sure abhors knee-jerk tendencies which
are the hallmarks of liberals. My first impression on reading
the article was question the why of it. A number of answers
are attempted in the article itself. One of them, it seemed
to me, was as a reaction to the multiculturalism of the liberals(?).
At the very least, this seems too charitable to what the article
attempts.

The article, IMO, shows the inherent pitfalls in attempting an
objective analysis of conditions which necessarily involve and
are clouded by perceptions which are by no means beyond either 
culture or values, and yet, if are to believe the point-by-point
enumeration in the article, this is self-evident. Secondly, the
article seems to indicate an inordinate sense of urgency on the
part of the author to summarize the past and telescope the future
in the palm of his hand, as it were.

[My apologies again for the brief nature of this response.]

Sthan.
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: fester@etorofu.island.COM ()
Subject: Walker and the USS Pueblo
Originator: fester@etorofu
Organization: Island Graphics, Marin County, California
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 15:27:59 GMT


Note: this was also posted to sci.military. Apologies if you've seen it twice.

I happened to catch A&E's new series "Spies" on TV the other night. This par-
ticular episode was devoted to the Walker spy scandal of a couple years
ago. According to a quoted CIA source (quoted but unnamed), the damage done
by the Walkers was so great that "had war broken out with the Russians in 
the 70s, the Russians would have won". 

Well, maybe, but what I found to be MOST interesting was that Walker apparantly
recruited himself in 1967, during the Vietnam war. He handed over to the
Soviets most of our codes, but the Russians had no way of knowing if they
were "the real thing" unless they had a copy fo the decoding machine (sorry,
I don't know enough about this to explain why, but I have every confidence
that someone will offer a very good explanation). So, they apparantly convinced
the North Koreans to sieze an American spyship, and the USS Pueblo just
happened to make itself available. With the equipment in hand, the Soviets 
were able to confirm the authenticity of the codes, and Walker was well on
his way to becoming the most damaging spy in our history.

What was most distrubing to me, was that Walker, in return for his full cooper-
ation, received a far lighter sentence than the people he recruited (his
brother, his best friend) though he did far MORE damage. 

Mike

-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Re: Historical Documents Archives
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 10:24:45 GMT

In article <sumner.718045898@milo.math.scarolina.edu> sumner@math.scarolina.edu (David Sumner) writes:
>
>Does anyone know of a place where I could use anonymous
>ftp to obtain copies of particularly well-known 
>documents such as the Declaration of Independence?
>Any Information would be appreciated. 
> 
>Thanks, 
>David
> 

sonata.cc.purdue.edu 
cd /pub/next/Literature/Gutenberg/freenet

Or check Archie for freenet sites.

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: rrothaus@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Richard Rothaus)
Subject: B.C. dating
Followup-To:  soc.history
Keywords: B.C., Dating
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 16:47:37 GMT

     B.C. stands, I have been told, for "Before Christ."  Does anyone know when
and how the abbreviation first came into use?  Presumably it came into currency
well after the Venerable Bede popularized A.D. (anno domini).
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: uds@wsu-eng.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Udaybhaskar)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Reply-To: uds@wsu-eng.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Udaybhaskar)
Organization: Wayne State University, Detroit
Distribution:  world
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:48:19 GMT


> to the British to avoid the enforced suicide.  This illustrates that
the British already had a reputation in India as people to whom one
could flee to avoid some kinds of injustice.  Before suppressing {\it

I disagree again.  Would people have approached them if (theoretically
speaking) some missonaries were forcibly converting them to christianity...

Just because, there was no one among indians who could argue for them and
protect them, the widows turned to the british.  But, yes they did good.

>         1. In politics.  The rule of law rather than the rule of
autocrats or conspiratorial political parties.  The idea of democracy
and many ideas about human rights.  The idea of national rights and of
international law.  The idea of political struggle for social goals
rather than just the oriental ideas of how rulers can be virtuous.

Wrong.  Human rights and law was quite sophisticated in all of the east.
Its major weakness being that it was never in CONCRETE form, meaning
some one powerful, would erase/modify them.  The wests concept of
written and HARD_COPY version of law is the critical difference.  Meaning    
if someone destroyed one copy of the constitution, there were many more... 

Lastly, you are unfairly, clubbing indians and others (as orientals )w.r.t
`social-struggle'  --- Hinduism doesnot encourage social struggle.  You
wait till...(karmanyae_vaadHikaarastae maa phalaeshu kadaachana.....etc...)

This is not so in other socieites.    Definitely wrong there, you were...

>         4. Analytic philosophy.  All other important philosophies
reached dead ends in which they are still stuck.

Explain with atleast one example....

>         5. The business corporation, the free market and
limitation of government power.


Yes, I agree these are the most important facets of a progressive human
race...


> forms of racism, Fascism, the balance of nature, Heavy Metal and
multiculturalism.

You have extremely strong born-again-christian tendencies in your
arguments and attitudes... What is wrong with heavy metal.  It happens
to be the medium of expression of some people...


Seetamraju Udaya Bhaskar Sarma
(email : seetam @ ece7 . eng . wayne . edu)
From: uds@wsu-eng.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Udaybhaskar)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture/ British Misuse Of Sati.
Reply-To: uds@wsu-eng.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Udaybhaskar)
Organization: Wayne State University, Detroit
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:55:42 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.055120.1578@ecst.csuchico.edu> vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu) writes:
>
>The British in reality were not even saviours of the Indian widows.  There 
>are many examples of the British soldiers having raped widows after having
>so-calledly rescuing them from the funeral pyres of their dead husbands.

Did you know all the soldiers in british uniforms were indians.
Only the officers were actual whites.  (Not even hybrids-angloindians)...
The only time indians saw actual british foot soldiers were
near the WW II time....


Seetamraju Udaya Bhaskar Sarma
(email : seetam @ ece7 . eng . wayne . edu)
Xref: sparky soc.history:8576 sci.econ:7801
From: miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman )
Newsgroups: soc.history,sci.econ
Subject: Re: What was the cause of the 1930s depression?
Date: 25 Sep 92 19:40:06 GMT
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California

nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:

>In article <1992Sep21.234530.27085@elmer.is.ussprint.com> dons@is.ussprint.com (Don Stadler) writes:
>>How about both? We are still growing, after all. Once we have worked off more
>>of our debt, we'll be ready to grow again. We are already in "the greatest period 
>>of prosperity the world has ever seen". As long as we keep grwoing this shouldn't
>>change! I don't know about others, but I have paid off all my debt and now have
>>considerable savings. I will be adding to it, too!

>  Getting back to history:  the collapse of Germany's currency in the 1920's
>  and the US Depression of the 1930's represented two opposite apocalyptic
>  economic scenarios.   Germany experienced hyperinflation but the US actually 
>  had slight DEflation for a couple of years during the Depression. 

	The German hyperinflation is believed by some historians to have
	been a deliberate attempt by the German govt to stop France
	from getting any money out of their seizure of German factories
	France had seized the areas as a way to try to get some of the
	indemnity owed her.  The German effort was successful, and
	hyperinflation ended as soon as France withdrew.  The standard
	US history texts talk about how the Versailles treaty caused
	such hardship in Germany that it humiliated Germany and brought
	about the collapse of democracy & the economy and thus brought
	Hitler to power.  However, Germany borrowed to pay what indemnity
	she did pay, and then renounced the debts when Hitler took power
	There was a net inward flow of money during the pre-Hitler years.

	France, on the other hand, forgave the war debts owed her by the
	her allies, and was unhappy to find that the US wanted full payment
	plus interest on every penny loaned to France by the US.

>  On the 
>  other hand if governments try to deal with this by "reflating" the 
>  economy we could experience massive inflation and cash assets would 
>  be wrecked and "hard" assets would be safer.    Comments?

	Inflation doesn't have to be massive.  THe markets are currently
	betting that long term the US will have inflation a little under
	7%.  If inflation were say 6%, the national debt as a %-age of
	GNP would decline from its current 66% of GNP to a much more
	manageable 33% in a little over 10 years.  (It was 24% of GNP in
	1980, Germany's is currently approaching 50%, and the G7 average
	is 60%).  That is assuming that you don't add appreciably to the
	debt from now on, which is a big assumption, but it simplifies the
	argument.

	I agree the deficit is too big, but one expects many things from
	an economy than just a balanced budget, one also wants jobs, investment
	and general growth (possibly expressed as a cleaner environment, 
	not necessarily more goods and services.)

	- Michael Goldman
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Invention of the Novel
From: <HISJMA@BYUVM.BITNET>
Date: Thursday, 1 Oct 1992 21:56:22 MDT
Organization: Brigham Young University

This may be a quibble, but it is a point about which I am willing to
quibble a bit.  Stuart Sechrest defines "novel" in a way that has nothing
to do with commercial interaction or appeal.  He then classifies such
works as Murasaki Shikibu's "Tale of Genji" as something "similar to
novels."  The "true form," he writes, "is a creation of a later
commercial interaction, between author and reading public."  Apparently,
for Mr. Sechrest, there can be no "true novel" until a novelist is
writing it for a living.

Sorry, but I don't buy this argument.  If a novel is something that fits
the definition Mr. Sechrest posed at the beginning of his message, then
"Tale of Genji" works.  And if "Tale of Genji" is not a novel, I'm not
sure what to call it.  It passes the duck test.


--Michael Allen
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: Bruce.Scott@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Bruce Scott)
Subject: Re: The Vikings
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 21:06:42 GMT

cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>The debates associated with the founding of the United States
>reveal that the Greek city-states, the history of the Roman
>Republic & Empire, the Swiss Confederation, the Dutch Republic,
>and England's struggles between Parliament and King were powerful
>influences.  I can't recall any discussion of the Vikings,
>though.

You left out one of the strongest ones on Benjamin Franklin: the
governing institutions among the Five Nations of the southern Great
Lakes (Iroquois, et al).

Gruss,
Dr Bruce Scott                             The deadliest bullshit is
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik       odorless and transparent
bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de                 -- W Gibson


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: The Vikings
Date: 29 Sep 92 21:48:12 GMT
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <12495@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>
>England certainly has a Viking heritage to it, but since the
>Parliament is a relatively recent phenomenon, relative to the
>Vikings, this seems like a stretch to me.
>
Well, the argument is that the Viking legacy was of independence
and the right of each to act independently of the King.  The
English nobles furthered that with the Magna Carta.  Parliament
initially was not representative of the whole people either.
There was incremental extension of the idea of rights until
it encompassed larger and larger proportions of the people.

>The debates associated with the founding of the United States
>reveal that the Greek city-states, the history of the Roman
>Republic & Empire, the Swiss Confederation, the Dutch Republic,
>and England's struggles between Parliament and King were powerful
>influences.  I can't recall any discussion of the Vikings,
>though.

The influence of the Vikings would, of course, not be conscious,
but that doesn't mean it wasn't there or even the most important.




-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.history