From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Weinberger's Pardon
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 19:03:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.060854.20847@mtu.edu>, pecampbe@mtu.edu (Paul Campbell)
writes:

|>In article <1993Jan9.142340.1076@cis.ohio-state.edu>
|>csmith@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (craig edward smith) writes:
|>>In article <1993Jan9.052510.20330@Princeton.EDU>
|>niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
|>>>In article <1993Jan9.040753.3016@cis.ohio-state.edu>
|>csmith@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (craig edward smith) writes:
|>>>But unlike a few knee-jerks like the John Birch Society and Ed Ipser,
|>>>the rest of the world doesn't faint in shock at the word "Communist."
|>>>They knew the Contras to be heirs to the Somozan legacy, and they knew
|>>>Somoza to be an utterly brutal thug, so they opposed the contras just as
|>>>much as they opposed the Sandanistas.
|>>
|>>My feeling is that the world SHOULD faint in shock at the word "Communist"
|>
|>Yes.
|>
|>>since it is an ideology born of resentment and has violence as it's
|>>means of spreading. Thank God it's dying of its own contraditions!
|>
|>No. It's not. Although the name has changed (they call themselves
|>liberals in this country), communism by any other name (socialism,
|>American Liberalism, or Marxism) is the same thing.

Given that Robert Owen died before Marx was born that would be a rather odd
claim.

Is this guy claiming that Clement Atlee, Harold Wilson and President Mitterand
were Communists? How very odd - well given the state os the US education system
it ain't odd, just very ignorant.


|>Time for a little text book review on how to be a good communist. First,
|>I highly suggest that you get yourself a copy of _The Law_ by one
|>Frederic Bastiat. If you want the quick, postable version, Karl Marx
|>wrote the 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto in 1848, which he
|>essentially copied from an article by Adam Weishaupt in 1797
|>(entitled "How to change a Republic into a Democracy"). Now, we haven't
|>quite made the conversion as well as some of the European countries like
|>Sweden or France, but we're getting there. George Bush's "New World
|>Order" is a push in the right direction (assuming you're a practicing
|>communist).

Well the Bush new world order does have an imperialist edge and the phrase is
rather evocative of Hitlers speach at Neuremberg where he spoke of a World Reich
(order) that would last a thousand years.


|>          The 1st Plank:  THE ABOLITION OF PROPERTY IN LAND AND
|>APPLICATION OF ALL RENTS IN LAND TO PUBLIC PURPOSES.
|>[we have so called 'property taxes' or the '99 year lease']

Well this comes from the Land Nationalists. It is a reaction to the "enclosures"
that had effectively stolen what had till then been common land from the people
and given it to the aristocracy.


|>          The 2nd Plank:  A HEAVY PROGRESSIVE OR GRADUATED INCOME
|>TAX.
|>[translation: IRS]
|>          The 3rd Plank:  THE ABOLITION OF ALL RIGHT OF INHERITANCE.
|>[translation: probate]
|>          The 4th Plank:  THE CONFISCATION OF THE PROPERTY OF ALL
|>EMIGRANTS AND REBELS.
|>[translation: the new property confiscation for drugs laws]
|>          The 5th Plank:  CENTRALIZATION OF CREDIT IN THE HANDS OF
|>THE STATE, BY MEANS OF A NATIONAL BANK WITH STATE CAPITAL AND AN
|>EXCLUSIVE MONOPOLY.
|>[translation: The Federal Reserve]

Precisely the grounds on which the Federal reserve was opposed before the civil
war made it inevitable.

|>          The 6th Plank:  THE CENTRALIZATION OF THE MEANS OF
|>COMMUNICATION AND TRANSPORTATION IN THE HANDS OF THE STATE.
|>[translation: FCC & DOT and state DMV's]
|>          The 7th Plank:  THE EXTENSION OF FACTORIES AND THE
|>INSTRUMENTS OF PRODUCTION OWNED BY THE STATE AND THE BRINGING INTO
|>CULTIVATION OF LAND AND THE IMPROVEMENT OF THE SOIL GENERALLY IN
|>ACCORDANCE WITH A COMMON PLAN.
|>[translation: too many licensing agencies to even think about]
|>          The 8th Plank:  EQUAL LIABILITY FOR ALL TO LABOR AND THE
|>ESTABLISHMENT OF INDUSTRIAL ARMIES, ESPECIALLY FOR AGRICULTURE.
|>[translation: Social Security Agency]
|>          The 9th Plank:  THE COMBINATION OF AGRICULTURE WITH
|>MANUFACTURING INDUSTRIES AND THE GRADUAL ABOLITION OF THE
|>DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE TOWN AND COUNTRY BY THE MORE EQUITABLE
|>DISTRIBUTION OF POPULATION OVER THE COUNTRY.
|>[translation: the difference between a FEDERATION and a REPUBLIC]
|>          The 10th Plank:  FREE EDUCATION FOR ALL CHILDREN IN PUBLIC
|>SCHOOLS.
|>[even 'private' schools must follow government regulations]

Well given that the above is the communist manifesto and the majority of the
terms have been implemented throughout the west a reasonable person would
consider that Communism hasn't entirely failed. The fact that these policies
have had beneficial results would lead you to consider that communism wasn't
entirely bad.

However that would not be entirely valid. The Communist Manifesto is just that,
a call for support rather than the delineation of the real program. The
principles put forward in 1848 were not intended to be set in stone (although
many regimes did this with tragic consequences).

The key difference between the communist manifesto and what occured is in the
nature of public ownership. The communists considered that in order for society
to control something they must first own it. This turned out not to be the
case.

The other objection to observing the de facto adoption of the Communist
manifesto as the triumph of Communism is that it was as previously stated a call
for support. The support was intended to come from the ranks of the
socialist/Labour movement wich had it's roots in trades unionism and the
paternalist employer principles of Owen.

One reason why the blanket assertion from the right that Socialism = communism =
Satanism is that it is impossible to gain an appreciation of the development of
these strands of thought except by treating them as separate. I remember when
Ed. Meese made the claim that Socialism = Communism at Oxford, he seemed
genuinely surprized (and upset) when everyone laughed at him. Oh sorry I forget
according to Bush we are all liberal leftists at Oxford, I suspect Thatcher
would have been surprized at that.


--

Phill Hallam-Baker
Newsgroups: misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.president.clinton