From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Immigration procedures
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 19:27:53 GMT

In article <6262@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> blamb@sparc1.hri.com (Bill Lambert) writes:
>Michael, I will not be your "Space Invader" today. Sorry, but I can't

Sorry, I don't understand the "Space Invader" reference.

>have a meaningful discussion with those without empathy. Empathy is the
>valve that allows information to pass in any discussion. Discussions
>are for the multi-way passage of information. They're not fencing
>matches for the parrying of another's ideas with the sword of mis-
>applied or invented assumptions, or the feints of digression. I
>don't appreciate that kind of interaction and I try to avoid it
>whenever possible. Shall we try?

I guess I'm confused here. Are you saying that you can only have meaningful
dialogue with those that empathize with your plight/position?

>My original post was an attempt (in your case, maybe vain attempt) to
>point out the unfairness and unprofessionalism of the bureaucracies
>that handle immigration procedures by anecdotal evidence of my
>own personal experiences. Your willingness to discount and belittle
>my own personal experiences for reasons unbeknownst is where the empathy
>problem comes in. I am sorry to say that so directly.

I did not discount or belittle your experiences. I did point out that, had you
done things differently, your experiences (in all likelihood) would have been
more pleasant and less harrowing for all concerned. And as you admit that
yuor evidence is anecdotal, why should greater weight be given to your personal
experiences than to someone else's?

>It's fine to say, "If you did datada you wouldn't have any problem."
>But you missed the point. The point is that I, and others, will not

Sorry, but the point I was making is that following the prescribed procedures
will make everything smoother in almost all cases. I am glad that you posted
your story; it makes a very good point about being prepared and jumping through
the proper bureaucratic hoops if you want to avoid big hassle in the future.
I am also glad that everything turned out alright for you in the end. And if
others, through some misfortune, cannot do "datada", they will undoubtedly 
face some obstacles as well.

>always do datada, and because of that, we will be needlessly, rudely,
>and pointlessly hassled. And the point is also that, even if we did do
>datada, we have a pretty good chance of being needlessly, rudely, and
>pointlessly hassled anyway. And the larger point is also, why on earth do
>we have to do datada anyway? I guess the last point is the main.

First of all, as you did not do "datada", you cannot say that you would have 
been "pointlessly hassled anyway". Second, the process I described, while not
quick, was straightforward, and everyone involved was rather helpful. As for
the main point, it is because elected (in our case) representatives of both
nations have actively or passively shaped the system that way. I do not like
the process myself, but I can understand the reasoning behind it, as well as
appreciate the people who actually were very helpful and performed their jobs
in a professional, responsible manner.

>So let's just say you're cool and did everything right, and I'm not
>cool, and did everything wrong, and leave it at that.

Not at all. Again, your story should help others who may find themselves in
a similar position in the future; you're going to have some bureaucratic rings
to jump through, and it is better to get them out of the way as soon as 
possible, in the fashion that the concerned governments deem necessary.

>Or could we say that you were just a little lucky.... this time.

And that you are more likely to be lucky by taking care of these visa matters
as the 2 governments dictate. As far as luck goes, call it "playing the odds".

Mike

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