From: li@Data-IO.COM (Phyllis Rostykus)
Subject: Re:  Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Organization: Data I/O Corporation
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:39:58 GMT

David Green says:
> I don't rightly know, either, how you propose that one would be following
> the Christian morals that I perceive without believing in God or that
> that's their origin, but that, I think, is relatively moot to the point.

Uhm...

I don't follow Christianity's teachings because I think they're directly 
from God.  The Bible was written by people.  The churches are organized by
people.  All the work was done by people, and the origins of the stories
were from a man who lots of people think is also God or 'good' as I believe
the two are synonomous.  My intellectual side knows that Christianity is
from people, lots of people who have thought and worked and touched the
possibility of perfection in their lives and were moved to do what they
thought 'good' and wise.

I follow Chrisitanity because I have respect for many of those that
followed that Way, I follow it because it's the one that is easiest to
learn from in my present situation of living in a country that is
definitely Judeo-Chrisitian in orientation.  I do what is said in the
Gospels because not only do they work, they help me feel good about
myself, my capabilities in the world, and about the world itself.  I
follow those morals because I believe they are right for me.

I have no need of an authoritive or absolute Right.

As Merrigold pointed out to me, my Right might be better characterized 
as striving for wisdom, as she said, "You can't be right without someone
being wrong, but you can be wise without condeming others to foolishness."
And she's got hold of a wisdom there, I think, because a lot of the times 
I'm unhappiest have been when I've done pretty much *anything* to be Right,
even to the point of riding roughshod over someone's feelings. 

So, in a way, I don't qualify as your kind of Christian, because I don't
believe 'God-ordained' has any meaning, just as I don't think that either 
power or authority can hold love by force.

Pompous Bob says:
>	 "BTW, about summing up Christianity into one description, of course 
> its possible.  There has to be one decribing characteristic that defines a
> Christian.  Something with which we can say "he's a Christian and he's not".
> For me it is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as savior.  I think a lot of
> Christians would agree with me."

Depends on your definition of 'savior'.  As I don't believe in damnation
(other than, perhaps, the mental state of someone who destroys or hurts),
I don't believe He is needed to save me from that.  He is my example for
my life.  Christ is the guide for my life, and what He taught is the basis
of my actions and my beliefs.  I accept him as teacher and example and as
a human being/Good who did something remarkable for love.  Part of that is
from the fact that I believe that every intelligent being is a 'Child of
God'. I guess, though, that I do not think of Him as my savior.

Thing is I *also* don't really know if Christ Jesus as written in the
Gospels actually existed as they say he did.  I don't know if he didn't,
either, and have no strong belief in either direction, as it doesn't
*matter* either way, to me.  The teachings are still good, the example is
still useful even if he never existed, because it is doable.  I've seen the
equivalent in the folks of today, Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi, both
simply human, but also *able* to carry an ideal.

Hmmm... for those that speak of individual experiences as 'delusions'...
They are and they aren't... what the hell, in for a penny, in for a pound...

One crisp fall morning I came up with the cool idea that I really should
go to the local high school and run some wind sprints.  I hadn't been all
that happy with my endurance in the last couple of games, so I wanted to
work on it.  So I dressed in shorts, t-shirt, and sweatshirt and did a slow
jog the three blocks to the school.  I didn't realize, at that time, that
I'd left my asthema medication at home because I'd assumed that it was in
the sweatshirt's pocket.  It wasn't.  Once there, I stretched solidly, and
started running wind sprints.  

I ran about a mile's worth, and took off my sweatshirt as I was sweating
profusely, then another mile's worth and that's when the asthema hit and 
with it came a gut cramp.  With the warmth of my body and the sheer
coldness of the air, the asthema attack was probably the worst I've ever
had.  I pretty much collapsed on the side of the track.  There was no one
else there.  For a while it felt like the gut cramp was pretty much
wringing my insides between two big fists.  So I asked for help to at least
get up, and... well, I believed it would come with a surity I still can't
really explain without getting embarrassed about it. 

And, holding on tight to the belief that I was being helped, I rolled over
and got onto my knees and *felt* someone help me get up.  Then I'm on my
feet and making slow, careful steps in the direction of home.  There was
no one there, but it *felt* like someone had me leaning on their shoulders
and supporting the worst of my weight.  And I *felt* someone there,
watching, waiting with me holding me up when my lungs felt like they were
filled with tears or when the cramps ran like fire.  I know that it was
just me *believeing* that there was someone short, dark, strong and
patient, holding me up because there was no one else around to do it for
him, but that belief gave me the strength to get home, through the pain
and the difficulty, to my husband, my medication, and, eventually, the
emergancy room where I had to get an adrenaline shot.  It turned out to be
a systemic reaction.  There were a number of grass pollens in the air and
a lot of Redmond folk used wood stoves for heating that day and they had
pushed my reaction to dangerous levels.  One of the doctors commented that
it was a good thing I was able to get in when I did, and didn't answer
when I asked what would have happened if I hadn't managed it.

Part of me *knows* it was a self-induced delusion.  Part of me *knows* He
was there for me. I don't really care to say if it was all one or all the
other.  Both realities are true for me, so I have no reason to pick one or
the other; and I would prefer if folks *didn't* argue as to which it is,
as I've gone through just about all of them (in the three years since) and
still hold both in my heart.  But I *do* know, now, that I have that
strength of belief within me, something that I didn't know before the trial.

So... from the above, can we tell me if I'm Christian or not?  [Liralen
laughs softly]  I neither believe in Savior nor do I care much about the
'authority' of the church.  Someone has already said, "You *sure* sound
like a Unitarian to *me*.  NOT a Christian."  But many Unitarians are also
Christians. I have had a personal experience with Jesus; but also believe
that it to have been a delusion.  So, what *am* I? 

Or, another question, can anyone outside me *tell* me and have their
answer be 'real'? i.e. Is every person's link to the Infinite something 
that is only to be determined by them and their God? 
---
Liralen Li     |  "It's always harder to sit on a fence than to fall to either
li@Data-IO.com |   side, I mean *look* at how good a target I make..."
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