HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gsmith@clio.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: Individualism & the Common Weal
Organization: IWR, University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 18:34:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.205307.20065@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com
(Andrew M. Solovay) writes:

>Precisely the same reasoning applies to the right to property.

Precisely the same right would apply if you had a moral right to
"your" property without a government around to decide what is and
isn't yours.  But in fact, without a government around, it is not even
possible to decide what is or isn't your property.  Hence, it isn't
possible to have a moral right to it.

The moral right, to the extent it exists, is created by the general
agreement of people in society to abide by a set of rules.  In the
absence of rules, why do you have property?  If I start farming some
land, and you come by and say "Hey, that land is mine!", what makes
your claim valid?  On what moral basis should I recognize it?

>The government has no moral right to say, "You have your property
>only because we protect it for you; therefore, we can take it
>away from you at will."

It's worse than that.  You have property only because the government
defines property.

>As Thom Jefferson said, we are "endowed by our Creator with
>certain unalienable rights... [and] among these are Life,
>Liberty, and Property." (Dec'n of Independance, first draft) Our
>right to own property is inherent and inalienable; the fact that
>the government helps us enforce that right doesn't mean that we
>cede any of the right to it.

You can think if you want that God doled out a bunch of title deeds
and said "Let there be property!"  To me, it sounds crazy.  It is also
a handy idea to believe in if you happen to have a lot of property,
like Jefferson.  It wouldn't sound so nice if you *were* some of his
property.

The Declaration of Independence is nice, because it defends the notion
that *we* are not the property of Queen Elizabeth II.  But it is
neither legally binding nor morally definitive.

Your right to property is not definable without a government, and is
based on force.  That is the bottom line.


-- 
     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/IWR/Ruprecht-Karls University 
               gsmith@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de
Xref: sparky soc.motss:47290 alt.politics.homosexuality:7115 co.politics:1883
From: fogarty@sir-c.jpl.nasa.gov (Tim Fogarty)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:10:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: elroy.1992Nov13.001006.3635
Organization: JPL, Space Imaging Radar Software Group


In article <1992Nov12.232211.2712@ncar.ucar.edu>, gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
|>tc> when in fact they were voting away equal rights.  There were no quotas or 
|>    special rights.
|>
|>  Not yet, at least. It's well-known that the best way for an employer to
|>  avoid charges of discrimination is to enact a quota system, or to alter
|>  the balance between one set of employees and another set by race-norming
|>  test scores, or some other method. I'm quite sure that if #2 had not pas-
|>  sed, we'd be seeing lawsuits brought against companies because less than
|>  10% of their workforce was gay, ergo they discriminated against gays. This
|>  pattern has gone on for some time, and I don't see why it wouldn't be used
|>  to "protect" gays as well.

It is well-known that the best way for an employer to avoid charges of
discrimination is to select/promote employees based on their qualifications,
using the same standards equally on all employees.

There have been cases, especially in very large burrocracies (sp), where the 
personnel process is not very personal.  They use standardized tests to 
determin promotions and hiring.  Some claim these standardized tests are 
culturally biased.

However, the majority of employers in the US are small companies, where your
boss does the hiring and the promoting.  If he/she uses anything other than
your qualifications in determining whether you get hired, or how much of a 
raise you get, then he/she is discriminating.

No gay group or organization has ever been interested in quotas.  The mention
of the word quota is a tactic used by extremist to scare the neutral majority.


|>--
|>Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
|>strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
|>
--
Tim Fogarty
Sys Man and Sys Admin for the EGSE in the POCC at JSC for SRL-1, STS-59
FOGARTY@SIR-C.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Aspects of Boycott
Date: 13 Nov 92 03:07:01 GMT
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA

In article <1992Nov13.003721.3971@macc.wisc.edu>, anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
  [much elided]
> An Aspen ski week brings income to businesses elsewhere in
> the state.  The airlines, other transport vendors, phone
> companies, clothing and food providers, hoteliers not
> operating only in Aspen, gas and oil companies, car rental
> firms, ski equipment concerns, etc, all participate in what
> is after all significant amounts of related business.
> 
> It seems to me an economic boycott needs not to overlook
> these not-trivial sources of income.  One way of putting
> this is to say that Aspen itself, good though it may be, is
> not the only factor in an Aspen LGB ski week.  Now I am not
> arguing here against the event itself, but I think we need
> to consider such issues as those I mention, as well as
> (probably) others.
 
  Perhaps a compromise could be forged here in the specific 
case of Aspen. One of the main reasons for an economic boycott
is to put the pinch on the "bad" folks as well as making a visible
point (probably *the* biggest reason). The drawback is that
the "good" folks are in the crossfire and them getting hit
is a double insult (they didn't want CO2, but their being 
screwed). 
  Since Aspen seems to definately be part of the "good" side
and they sponsor Gay Ski Week, perhaps they, as a gesture,
could be convinced to donate a percentage of the gate to
a fund for overturning CO2, and the (hopeful) future repeal
effort. 
  Thus, a gay skiier in Colorado could be actually be helping
the right people by targeting their recreation dollars to
a cause which helps the No on 2 folks. The entire thing could
essentially be a benefit.
  Seem acceptable? 
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: corwin+@CMU.EDU (Scott Safier)
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Followup-To: soc.motss
Originator: scotts@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<CORWIN+.92Nov10081709@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU>
	<mattm-101192122033@mcmelmon.apple.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:19:27 GMT

In article <mattm-101192122033@mcmelmon.apple.com> mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:

   I very seriously doubt he was dismissed for being gay. 

He?  16 students were asked to leave in Scanlan's class, "and every
one of them was an effeminate homosexual or an overweight woman."  The
response of the remaining straight students was to throw a bottle
against the (Oak) door of the Drama Department (which was closed for
the day).  That is why it is referred to as "Bloody Monday."

The rest of your babblings is tripe and has been answered elsewhere.

Scott Safier                                   corwin+@cmu.edu
Robotics Institute, Carnegie Mellon University
        
member, T.S.A.K.C.  B0/1 f+ w- g k+ s- m(+) e++

"We do not have an anti-gay policy... The problems Boy Scouts are
having are with people trying to get in - the gay community, the
homosexuals, the atheists."
Burford Hill, Western Regional Director, Boy Scouts of America. 
5 June 1992, San Francisco Chronicle
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: Boycott Colorado
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:21:09 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) wrote:
>I don't think US Air does.  Delta definitely doesn't (it goes
>through Salt Lake).  And Delta has the added benefit of being
>a reasonably good airline.

When Delta took over Pan Am, all the straight white males went to Delta.
A good number of women, and just about all the queer workers stayed with 
Pan Am.  Delta has a reputation as being especially hard on their women 
workers, and anti-gay.

A former tenant of mine worked for Delta, and he said he didn't
have any problems himself.  However, he was not out at work, and said
the atmosphere at work was not queer-positive.

Just FYI

       Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3328.span@sdsc.edu
"It's always Beach Party Barbie, or Malibu Barbie....  That shit does not
prepare you for the true horror of a real woman's life.  Where is Single,
Abused, Trailer-Park Barbie?"             - Roseanne Arnold
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: Lesbian Visibility on Roseanne
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 04:25:50 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

Roseanne is very gay-positive, and the storyline is bound to continue.

Previously, Martin Mull played her gay boss.  He left the show to be
on Tom Arnold's show, so they probably wanted to continue with a gay
character.

I heard they debated whether to have Sandra's character (yes, the name
is Nancy) or Roseanne's sister (don't remember the character's name)
turn out to be lesbian.  The funny thing is, *both* actors are
lesbian...

--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
From: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Anthony Berno)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Bigfoot (was:Gerbilling)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:51:22 GMT
Reply-To: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca

In article <1992Nov9.033110.15801@news.Hawaii.Edu>  
johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan) writes:
> In article <1992Nov6.134352.29920@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
> gsmith@clio.uucp (Eugen W. Schmidt) writes:
> >
> >Well, joke away, but this is serious.  I seen an actual movie of
> >Bigfoot.

> Speaking of mounting Bigfoot, have there been any sightings of his
> bear code?

No, but judging from a bit of Harry and the Hendersons I caught on TV, he  
must be e---. My suspicion is that he *wasn't* anatomically correct!

-Anthony
From: deziner@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.p.rotella)
Subject: Visiting Paris & London
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:52:47 GMT
Keywords: Paris France London England UK visiting guide tourist travel

ATTENTION PARIS & LONDON RESIDENTS...otherwise skip this message:

I have a close friend that is visiting Paris and London 11/22->11/30.
He is interested in talking with other gay men in these cities about
places of interest, night life, hotel ideas, etc. He is also interested
in meeting folks who would like to show him the town, have dinner, go
out dancing, etc.

If you are familiar with these cities, live there, or know someone I
could pass on to him, please send me email and I will pass it on to him.
He has access to internet, but not netnews so he will be able to email you
back.

Thanks!

Joe Rotella
AT&T Bell Labs
jpr@cbzoo.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: Orange County Went Democrat?
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:24:18 GMT

In article <1di0oqINNiu1@mizar.usc.edu>, adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> In article <1992Nov8.020730.9980@netcom.com> 
> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
> 
> > OC went for Bush, though not overwhelmingly. Clinton campaigned
> > there (heavily) and got a good reception. They don't seem to like
> > Bush any more then anyone else does.
> 
> Clinton did not campaign heavily in Orange or any other
> California county.  He almost didn't campaign here at all.

  Actually, that's wrong. He was here at Pacific Amphitheater
(in Costa Misery) about a week before the election -- most
of my office went and the area adjoining was in gridlock. 
  If memory serves, he was here in OC once before that. He has
also had a number of meetings with a lot of local republican
cash cows who ended up defecting. Bush on the other hand didn't
even come here, though he did send his pidgeon-er-Quayle here once.
  The county went approximately: 20% Perot 45% Bush 35% Clinton. 
This in itself is making the Dems start to wonder whether they
this is the start of something new since Republican wins in OC
are usually on the 60-40 magnitude. There is also talk about a
concerted effort to get rid of Dornan at all costs calling him
an 'embarrassment to the party'.
  The battle lines are being drawn, and I doubt that Bush falling
on his sword on Saturday is going to change anything.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Teledildonics
Date: 5 Nov 92 08:13:22 GMT
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

bleah, shame on you for using this word for the Subject line, Jack.

In article <1992Nov5.042727.9420@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>Can one of you book fans tell me what the X at the end of the ISBN
>number means?

scratch a motsser, find a mathematician. (an intellectual?)

The last digit on the ISBN is a checksum used to help insure that the
entire number is entered correctly by humans. By a lot of quite
fascinating but not particularly motss relevant math, one good
checksum scheme involves a base 11 result. So how do you represent
that eleventh digit, since you've already used 0-9? Simple. Call it "X".

>I have long thought it delightful that the LC category for books
>about homosexuality is "HQ". 

Unfortunately, we have some rather unseemly neighbours in the HQs.

Nelson, who wishes this noisy data line had an error correcting code.
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/       Before the cream sits out too long, you must whip it
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:21:35 GMT

And another thing. I saw a piece on E! about the TV movie
about the Jacksons, and they had a guy trying to look and
act like Michael in the role. That's repugnant!!! He had
to shun everything about himself to do the role. He had to
practically *become* Michael. I was sickened. He should
have been allowed to talk, sing, and dance however the fuck
he usually does, because then the viewers would be more
able to learn more about the actor. Who cares about Michael,
anyway? we'd watch the film to learn about the actors, not
the family...

--
John Dorrance        * Sexyfunky Motherfuckerdiva *   thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu

		I bet if you threw that ass into the air
			It'd turn into sunshine!
From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Re: Colorado tactics
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 05:44:15 GMT

In article <4mmXTB2w165w@ailanth.UUCP> ailanth!ailsa@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>
>>
>> Seems to me that all LGB employers in Colorado should
>> dismiss their heterosexual employees forthwith.
>> --
>*chuckle*  i've always wanted to do that.  either that or run a
>business and ask specifically if teh applicant is GLB, and say, if they
>answer no, "sorry, i am only looking for non-hetersexuals."  *grin*  in
>all seriousness, i'm WAY too soft-hearted to turn down someone who
>needs a job for any other than work-related reasons, but it's a neat
>thought...

I've been talking with some friends, and we came up with some thoughts
for business owned by GLBO's...

1)  Have a company sponsered happy hour...at a gay bar.
    (If that doesn't seem bad enough, do it at a local leather bar, and
     see if you can get your local NLA chapter to drop in...)

2)  Buy everybody in your company a 1-year subscription to your local gay
    newspaper.  Deliver them through interoffice mail.

3)  Send around a memo stating that your company is doing a survey for
    a government-sponsered psychology study.  Tell them that if they
    consider themselves to be "straight", to answer the following questions
    and to send the results anonymously back to the HR department:
    1)  How long have you known you were straight?
    2)  Have you ever thought about pretending to be Gay so you would
        fit in better?
    3)  Have you ever had feelings of anxiety because of your sexuality?
    4)  Have you ever engaged in a homosexual act in an attempt to
        validate your hetrosexuality?
    (Add some more questions, and user your creativity...)

4)  Send around a memo stating that since some people find the word
    "Husband/Wife" offensive, in the future, all employees should use
    the phrase "Spousal Equivelant".

5)  In the memo for your next company party, specifically state that Gay
    employees are invited to bring their Boyfriends/Girlfriends/Spousal
    Equivelants/Significant Others.  Don't mention anything about the
    straight employees being able to invite the same...

I'm sure you can come up with some more...
--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza.  OK???=
=You know, Colorado has a lot more to fear from a RadiKalFeministLesbianBitch =
=like me than I have to fear from either Colorado or "Them".  Carpe Diem! FWA!=
Xref: sparky soc.motss:46743 talk.politics.misc:59159 ca.politics:9463
From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
Subject: Re: How Many Homosexuals?
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:43:34 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <69175@cup.portal.com> Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com writes:

>In SF, Examinter polls usually come up with gays as 10% of the general
>population, but 15% of voters. Since most people consider SF to be 4 or
>5X the national proportion of gays, that puts us back to 2-3% nationally

SF 4 - 5 X the national average?

Never heard of this stat.

I do remember a nationwide survey of cities with population greater than
100,000. The percentages of gay men and lesbians ranged from 8% to 11%,
not very much variation city to city.

I think the 4-5X reflects visibility, not actual numbers.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Coors (was Re: Boycott Colorado)
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:12:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.195019.9931@craycos.com> mush@craycos.com (Randy Murrish) writes:
>Although my Grandfather was a Vice President of Coors, I've never
>really liked their beer OR their politics.  

Oh, what the hell:

q:  Why is Coors beer like having sex in a canoe?
a:  They're both fucking close to water.

Coors generally has a pretty terrible track record with
the gay community.  They've cleaned it up in the past few
years, but I'm still not surprised to hear that they (or
members of their board) supported CFV.
--
           Hate is not a family value.  Boycott Colorado

       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: A Dumb Question, But...
Date: 11 Nov 92 13:46:25 GMT
Reply-To: ailanth!ailsa@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Organization: Ailanthus Project

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

> It is old, but not my idea of grand.
>
hee!  this would be a good entry into someone's quotes file, shorn of
context, of course...  *grin*  (no, this is not an ageist comment, this
is a giving-jess-a-hard-time comment!)

                                                  -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
                                                        ________
I don't care what consequence it brings,        Silence \      / Action
I have been a fool for lesser things.              =     \    /    =
                                                 Death    \  /    Life
                                                           \/
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: balistik@big-brother.nevada.edu (Shawn Hicks)
Subject: Re: Colorado's Amendment 2
Organization: Not yet, but we're working on it...
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:25:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.185406.3267@tc.cornell.edu>, shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>In article <1d8r3aINN3i5@marvin.solbourne.com> gerber@solbourne.com (Andrew Gerber) writes:
>>Boycotting all Colorado products is probably not the best way to
>>respond to this vote.  I work for a very gay-positive software
>>company; nearly all the employees live in Denver and Boulder; not
>>purchasing our products will only hurt the pro-gay people.  
>
>I question this.  It's like saying that not contributing to
>the Boy Scouts hurts all the boys, regardless of their own
>or their parents personal feelings about homosexuality.
>Sorry Andrew, but your company contributes to the Colorado
>tax base.  I intend to boycott Colorado and all products
>made in Colorado (to the extent that I know about them),
>too.


There are Air Force bases in Colorado.  Lowry AFB in Denver
and the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs.  How does
(not yet) President-Elect Clinton feel about that?  What
would happen to Colorado Springs if he should, say, move
the school to another state?  Lowry is mostly an education
base as well, that's where I went to Tech School.  I suppose
the government could save *lots* of money if they consolidated
two training bases, say Lowry and Colorado Springs into
Nellis AFB, NV, which is also a training base.

After all, Melinda, one should suggest solutions as well.  ;>


Shawn

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris)
Subject: Re: ***Accessories!!!***
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:59:26 GMT

thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:

>My favorite pair of shoes lately has been my big butch black
>boots. I got them a couple of months ago, and have been wearing
>them almost constantly because they're very warm. They're my
>butchest pair of shoes, but any masculinity gained by wearing
>them is cancelled out because they make me walk like a huge
>fairy; I take longer strides and my butt just *swoops* around
>like a funky diva. It's really fun.

I bought a pair of used combat boots for Halloween and I just *LOVE*
them!  Primarily because now I don't have to worry about anyone stepping
on my feet on a crowded dance floor; the boots are thick and my feet are
numb anyway.

-jeff
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic