HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bishop4559@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Opus Dei
Date: 10 Oct 92 13:36:24 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <01GPRGKPQWF6A73GR8@SNYBUFVA.BITNET>, "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> writes:
> There was an article in the NAtional Catholic Reporter last spring that
> discussed Opus Dei at length. What Eric  and JoJo have said follows along much
> of the article. In it Opus Dei was compared to a cult- isolation, hierarchical
> structure, all or nothing--- I know I have the article somewhere- I'll try and
> dig it out and post the exact date if anyone is interested in digging it out.
> Opus Dei being a personal prelature means it is answerable only to the Pope-
> regardless of where it is--

As far as I am concerned Nancy, the National Catholic Reporter is neither
Catholic nor credible.  If you would like to find out about Opus Dei, why not
read the writings of it's founder.  Josemaria Escriva was just recently
beatified by Pope John Paul II, in Rome.  Two books that I would recommend are
"The Way" by Josemaria himself and "What is Opus Dei?" by Cominique Le
Tourneau.  They are both available from Scepter Press, P.O. Box 1270,
Princeton, NJ 08542-1270.  I myself have never had any personal experience with
Opus Dei, but I know of one who has.  He, who has since become a Franciscan, is
 convinced Dan Bishop
orthodoxy in the church today.  If they are working to counter those who wish
to destroy the Church from within, then I will wholeheartedly support them.
Pax in aeternum,

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Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 09:41:37 CDT
From:         Elizabeth Stevens <CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      RCIA, heresies, mortal sin

Someone stated in a post that it is a mortal sin to not assist
(does that mean attend?) mass. In my RCIA classes we were
taught almost no Church doctrine and I'm having to learn
it on my own. We did some good things, but we didn't learn
just what we were expected to believe to qualify to become
Catholic.

Does anyone know just "how Catholic" one is after participating
in the Rite of Welcome? I have missed Sunday mass and had no
idea it was a mortal sin. But then if it is, I can't go to
reconciliation. ( waiting for "decree of nullity") And this
makes me wonder what else I don't know. :(  It really doesn't
matter to me if the Church doesn't require *me* to do certain
things, in my heart I'm a member and would like to do whatever
is expected...as long as I can find out what that even is.

Our parish is what I would term extremely liberal. How can
I find out what "should" be in a mass, and compare that to
what comprises our mass?

Thanks for any advice,
In Christ,
Elizabeth
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Re: Loving
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 05:59:02 GMT

In article <9210150912.AA29038@pegasus.com> "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:
>Gordon,  In our congregation there is a couple who have been together
>for the past 17 years.  One is a quadraplegic, but despite this takes
>an active part in the church activities, is on the vestry, the music
>foundation board, and is in church every Sunday, having the wheelchair
>pushed into place by the partner.  The other partner is a vested Lay
>Reader, also serves on the vestry, Diocesan Council, and has taken
>care of his partner after an auto accident caused the quadriplegia the
>first year they were together. If the Love of God is not manifest by
>this relationship between two men, then it is not manifest anywhere.
>Let he who has eyes see..............
>Shalom,                             Len Howard
>                                    tas@pegasus.com
Len,
I don't think anyone would say that a loving relationship between men, or between women is wrong.  They are to be strived for.  And certainly what you describe
above is laudable in itself as Christian charity.  Whatever position one takes
on this issue, it is necessary to focus precisely upon the point at issue.  Thatpoint is not over the wonderful manifestations of Christian love for one anotherthat homesexuals are capable of.  Nothing about the condition of homsexuatlity
seems to preclude great acts of self sacrfice and Christian love.  However
the precise point at issue is the legitimacy of sexual expression in such
relationships.  It does not follow from the fact that homosexuals are quite
capable of both ordinary and extraordinary act of Christian love, that sexual
acts between them are legitamate expressions of the Christian love they    
manifest for one another in many other ways.  That is the point at issue.
I myself do not have any independent certainty on this matter.  In conscience
I turn to the Church for my understanding of how I ought to understand this issue.
Peace,
John


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: English translation of the Mass
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:54:32 GMT

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 12:05:02 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: English translation

Eric James Ewanco (ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM) writes:

>What is so dang wrong with putting grammatically correct sentences in
>the liturgy?  Do these people just want to change things for the sake of
>changing them?

Eric, I concur completely.  No change in liturgical text should ever be
undertaken just for the sake of change.  I think the only reason to change such
texts is to make it reflect as accurately as possible the sense of the original.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: bishops's authority (was: Altar girls)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:18:43 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.020302.15327@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
>Bishops have a proper authority that is their own by virtue of the fact
>that a bishop is a successor to the Apostles.  The authority of a bishop
>comes by virtue of apostolic succession and does not flow out from the Pope.
>He governs his flock by his own authority and not as a papal delegate.
>Furthermore, even if bishops in the West have not exercised their
>proper authority out of loyalty to the Pope, this in no way lessens
>that authority.

   This may be the understanding of the Orthodox and Anglicans, but
Catholic belief is that the Bishop of Rome has a primacy over all
other bishops that is not merely honorary.

   Furthermore, if what you say were true, then why does Canon Law
specify a _latae sentenciae_ excommunication for any (bishop) who
consecrates a bishop without the permission of the Pope?

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: anonymous@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu (Liz Broadwell)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Sources on the Mass (Was RCIA, heresies, mortal sin)
Date: 16 Oct 92 23:24:56 GMT
Organization: Society of Independent Newswaifs

In article <1992Oct16.192412.1361@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer) writes:
> 
>>Our parish is what I would term extremely liberal. How can
>>I find out what "should" be in a mass, and compare that to
>>what comprises our mass?
>>
> Simple. Get a Sacramentary (large red book used by priest at Mass) and open to 
> the "General Instruction on the Roman Missal" at the beginning of the book. You
> will be amazed!

If you get interested in a specific issue, I'd also recommend tracking down any
supplementary or clarificatory documentation which postdates the GIRM.  It's
difficult to say everything one needs to say about "doing Mass" in a few pages,
and I'm under the impression that important things have been said since
elsewhere.   

And on that note, can anyone point me at some relevant documentation concerning
the decoration of churches which postdates the GIRM and the Constitution on the
Liturgy (Vatican II)?  Please email specifically to me, since I doubt the group
at large will be interested.  (If sufficient interest is expressed, I will post
a summary of what I hear.)

Thanks!



* Liz Broadwell (by643@cleveland.freenet.edu) ***************************
* Department of English                       *   Cor ad Cor Loquitur   *
* The University of Pennsylvania              ***************************
                                    
Newman Centenary Celebration * 1893-1993 * 100 Years of Campus Ministry!
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 09:04:27 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: Anglican Church Question...

>Can someone explain the difference between this church-to-be and a typical
>Episcopal church?  TIA.

An Anglican (actually Anglican-Catholic) church is usually a formerly-Episcopal
church that is in a state of rebellion with the Episcopal church and has seceded
typically over the issues of the changes made in the Book of Common Prayer (our
analogue of the Roman Catholic Missal) back in the early seventies and women's
ordination.  They feel, no matter that the use of the 1928 Prayer Book was
deemed by the church as inappropriate, they can't worship God except in the
language of the King James bible (thee's and thou's, mayst and doest, etc.) and
feel that, no matter what their bishops say, it is sacrilege to even think that
a woman can have a legitimate call from God to the ordained ministry.

Now, you may detect some degree of predjudice in these words.  I'm afraid it's
true, for me.  The hallmark of the Episcopal church is usually it's embracing of
diversity.  I'm afraid I can't, in conscience agree with the splinter Anglicans
and am just as glad they started their own denomination.  I truly agree with the
general liberal trend in the Episcopal church and hold a deep-felt conviction
that a person should always be able to change, evolve, and grow.  My concept of
God is always changing, being refined, and hopefully coming closer to His true
nature (although I know I'll never grasp it).  Closed minds are an evolutionary
liability.  I for one don't want to be left in the tide pool.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:38:00 PDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <jim@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      RE: stay or leave... opinions?

>So what do readers suggest or advise of someone in such a situation? Does
>anyone know what the RCC suggests someone in my situation do? I haven't
>asked a priest or bishop or (pick your favorite RC official)....

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested (Jesus), saying "Teacher ,
what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"  He said to him, "What is written
in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said "You shall
love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all
your strength, and with all your mind," and "your neighbor as yourself." And
He answered him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." (Lk
10:25-28)

The important thing about any church is that it bring you closer to God, and
enhance your relationship with God.  If the RCC does this, despite your
differences with some part of it, then it is good that you remain in the
RCC. If your differences with the RCC come between you and God, or if you
find another church which better strengthens your relationship with God,
then it would be better for you to join that church.

At the most basic level the Church is US, the people of God.  I doubt any of
us like what every other person in the church is doing, but we (should) have
faith that other members of the church are spirit-filled people, and that
they are doing what they genuinely feel called to do by God to bring about
the Kingdom.

Your differences may be fundamental. You may, for example, not believe that
Jesus was the Son of God. If this is the case, then you should be invited to
stay and listen to the church's teachings and try to understand her message.
 You may decide that you do not want to participate in the sacraments
because they do not have meaning for you.  This is all well and good, and
hopefully over time you will receive the gift of faith.

On the other hand, your differences may be on the more external expressions
of Church. You may, for example, not agree with the way the Church treats
women. If this is the case, consider the fact that you may be called to be a
prophet and to call the Church to better follow its own teachings.  We owe
the Church's opinions and rules great weight, because there are many great
men who have considered these questions for many, many years and it is
unfair for us to casually think we have better minds than they. After
investigating their positions and arguments, however, and after praying over
the matter, we may find that the Spirit is speaking to us with a different
voice.  If that is the case, there is no reason to feel that you have to
leave the Church.  The Church is evolving, and your message is valuable and
needed.

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington, DC USA 20016-8019
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re:      Re: Altar girls and millstones
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-8825]: okeanos
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 01:18:33 GMT

Uhhh, the rhetoric in this thread is getting a little mean-spirited.
Let's all try to remember to treat each other with a little respect
and Christian charity and not return nastiness for nastiness.

We should be here not only to discuss what Catholicism is for us,
but also to demonstrate it in the way we address each other.

peace,

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: translation
Date: 16 Oct 92 12:51:08 GMT
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ

In article <01GPZMON4PFMA9M60V@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> writes:
>The change from This is the Word of the Lord to The Word of the Lord has been
>made to more accurately translate the Latin.

Excuse me?  We can get into the fine points of grammar here and split
hairs, if you wish, but "Dei verbum est" does not translate to The word
of the Lord.  Where is the verb "est" translated?  Third person singular
indicating |It is| or |This is|. 

Bad grammar is bad grammar, no matter what the language.

I think it has more to do with preventing theatrics and change for the
sake of change than it does trying to make decent liturgy.  Perhaps if
we trained lectors to better proclaim the word and use their talents,
we would not have to hack at the mass so often so as not to offend the 
nit-pickers of the world.  

Useless changes are useless changes, no matter why or how they are
made.

 The new translation makes it
>clearer that the proclaimer is refering to what was just proclaimed not to the
>entire book itself. It also draws the faithful into a closer role as carriers
>of the word of the Lord to the world as we are addressed with the words- The
>Body of Christ at Eucharist- we are to become Christ to the world. There are
>greater things to worry about than a minor change in words at the end of the
>readings. If that is what your faith is based on you need to look at yourself
>and what the liturgy means to you. These changes are not made on the whim of a
>few people- or by the publishers of the various missalettes. AND they are
>approved by Rome.
>Nancy-

Another post vatican II apology for change with an ex post facto (or,
if you prefer, fait accompli) approval.  According to the Archdiocese of
NY, head of the liturgical "inspection" team (if you will), this change
was driven by the Oregon Press publishers under the direction of Bp.
Hunthausen, and some other "revisionists" and was presented to the ICEL
as a set of suggested (note suggested) changes-not needed, but
suggested.  (There is also an absolute criminal retranslation of the
Lord's Prayer that was bandied about that started out something to the
effect of "Our Spiritual leader....").  It has taken on a life of its
own quite outside the bounds of real useful change.  
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: 15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr)
Subject: Re:      Homosexuality
Organization: University of Delaware
 The reference to homosexual orientation as intrinsically
 disordered is not hard to understand. Stealing is sinful
 but an urge to steal is not in itself a sin. But clearly
 an urge to steal being an urge directed toward something
 sinful is disordered. The word 'ordered' here refers
 to the ordering of things toward their proper ends.
 [no pun intended]. For example, the appetite to eat is
 ordered toward the nourishment of the body. So a n
 urge to eat substances that do not nourish but harnmm   
  harm the body would not be properly 'ordered'. As 
  sexuality is ordered to the establishing of the marriage
  bond and the procreation of children, a homosexual
  orientation is not properly ordered. An impulse
  toward alcoholism is not properly ordered. If you
  choose to translate that as saying that alcoholics 
  are all 'sickos' the lack of charity is on your part.
  Ratzinger was not name-calling but observing that
  a homosexual orientation cannot be regarded as
  something to be celebrated if it is a tendency to
  do things that are wrong.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:54:51 GMT

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: stay or leave... opinions?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:36:30 GMT


   A better alternative is to first pray for an increase in the
supernatural virtue of faith.  The Catholic Church does have many
"hard teachings."  Faith is what it takes to be able to accept them,
and faith comes from God through prayer.

   You might also do more reading on books that explain the whys of
the Church's more "difficult" teachings.  It makes them even harder
when one does not understand them.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:34:03 PDT
From:         FRANK@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Cardinal Mahony (note spelling)

>   He has encouraged ministry to AIDS victims and has said Mass for
> those suffering from this horrible disease.


      I may wrong in the amount but aren't there at least five AIDS
Hospices' set up by the Archdiocese here in LA directly due to the
Cardinals intervention?

      Frank
From: jslindst@waltari.helsinki.fi (Jouko Lindstedt)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Opus Dei
Date: 7 Oct 92 15:00:21 GMT
Distribution: bit.listserv.catholic
Organization: Department of General Linguistics, Univ. of Helsinki. Finland

I would like to read your opinions about the Opus Dei organization.

I am a member of the tiny Catholic minority of Finland. Probably
because of my position at the university, I've been systematically
approached by representatives of the Opus Dei "colony" in Finland,
but I've not been really attracted to their activities; it all looks
very foreign to my mentality. Perhaps it all looks normal in Spain,
but certainly not in Scandinavia. But I know they are a bit problem
for certain Catholics, especially for converts (like me) who may think
that since they have become Catholics, they could as well become "real
real" Catholics and join the O.D. 

Well, it is of course everybody's personal decision, but in a small
Catholic diocese like ours (4000 members) it is sometimes difficult to
posit phenomena like the O.D. on the general map of the Catholic
Church -- to know their real position in the "big world". In addition,
the O.D. colony is very active and shapes the picture of the Catholic
Church in Finland, because they arrange all kinds of seminars to
greater audience -- or pay ads in newspapers to tell about the secrets
of Fatima, which must look utterly exotic for an average Finn. Not
the way _I_ would like to tell about my Church. What is your relation
to the O.D. in countries like U.S.A., where you have much more Catholics
but don't share the Southern European tradition of it?



--

                                     Jouko Lindstedt

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Department of Slavonic Languages, University of Helsinki
<jslindst@waltari.Helsinki.FI> or <Jouko.Lindstedt@Helsinki.FI>
letters: Hallituskatu 11, 00100 Helsinki, Finland
fax: +358-0-1912974
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Latin nostalgia <as Re. Alter girls ...>
Date: 13 Oct 92 09:11:17 GMT
Organization: Manchester University, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.

In article <199210121941.AA19356@dsuvax.dsu.edu> rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU (Tim Rolfe) writes:
>
>>In nomine Patri, Filii, et Spiriti Sancti,
>           ^^^^^            ^^^^^^^          Wrong declensions
> In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritui Sancti

A brave attempt, but no banana here either. <Spiritui> is dative, the
genitive is <Spiritus>. 

At least I think so.
From: waldbill1981@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Pax
Date: 16 Oct 92 18:22:07 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa


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               P a x   i n   a e t e r n u m



"Today, is you should hear His voice, harden not your hearts . . ."
                                                  (Hebrews IV. 7-8)    
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