HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: Just a friendly warning...
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 04:05:02 GMT

In article <89#nns+.enigma@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
>Personally, whenever I get the urge to post to soc.women, I go and
>pound my head against the nearest wall instead.  The resulting
>headaches are much milder, and it accomplishes a lot more.

I was thinking of asking if they deign to let men post there yet,
then I remembered that was alt.womyn.only.

Of course, the soc.men group is just as bad.  Gee, I've never noticed
an alt.myn.only group.  (Imagine the fireworks if someone announced
a Myn's Movement...)

Thud.  That was me falling off my chair.  Sorry.  We may have problems,
but we don't run around baring our chests with plastic dildos on our
nose... then get upset when a newpaper photographer covering the
event we're protesting takes our picture.  The newspaper printed it.
On the front page.  The photographer even sold it to _Playboy_, who
ran it.  (Remember, these 'womyn' were at a public meeting on a state
university campus).

I loved the women drawing graffiti _on their own breasts_ to protest
'men' treating them as objects.  Sort of like a cow jumping into a
meat grinder to protest McDonald's selling hamburgers.

Sorry.  I really do sympathize with both the women's and men's movements.
But self-proclaimed womyn protesting society treating them like a side
of beef by stripping in public really cracks me up....


Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: how do I?
From: Gavin.Flower@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Gavin Flower)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:34:43 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Comp. Sci., Victoria Uni. of Wellington, New Zealand.

In article <Bt7HsK.AE2@twwells.com> anon-1016@twwells.com (Prisoner) writes:
>I'm not sure how to say anything without doing more damage. I feel
>like if I say anything to or about Relkie that isn't directly
>related to this recent thing, that I'm maybe doing even more
>manipulation. I have no way to judge.
[...]
>I don't know how to deal with this. I wish to offer some kind of
>help, recompense, whatever, to her. But I feel like even doing
>that would be wrong. It isn't my place, maybe, or just that I'd
>be using that as a handle. I don't know. My feelings say: stay
>away no matter what; you'll hurt her some more. The rest of me
>says: you owe her and may not let your fears prevent your
>assuming your obligation.
[...]

One suggestion:  Can you find someone, both strong enough to interact
with you and competent, to talk to about all this - either face to
face or by email.  I feel that direct communication, in private,
between you and Relkie, is not appropiate.  It seems to be that a
number of people can't handle the public exchange between the two of
you - this seems to include the two of you as well.  Yet, both of you
have a need to express yourselves, and I feel you should both have
that right, without fear of being stomped on.

*I* *would* *appreciate* *it* *if* *people* *would* *be* *supportive*
*of* *them* *both*.  

Prisoner is well aware he has done wrong and is sufficiently aware of
the legal implications, without any more people telling him this.  He
may be 40+, but he is still hurting.  The tone of his posts over the
last year, has shown that he is making some progress, he is well aware
that he needs to make a lot more.

Relkie is trying to cope as best she can.  She is very bright and
highly creative, therefore she tends to be very charismatic in words.
This is the way she is - she doesn't intentionally try to blind us
with her brillance.  Remember she is still only 16, and still under a
lot of stress.

People are not compelled to read posts by anybody.

Come, let us *all* be more supportive, or at least not add fuel to the
fire.



Gavin
-- 
Tomorrow's Society                              | flower_g@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
    Depends on                                   ----------------------------
Today's Children  - help us raise them properly! 
*******  These comments have no known correlation with dept. policy!  *******
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: APS, safety, healing
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:58:51 GMT

In article <0095F48B.72E305C0@BORN.PHYS.VIRGINIA.EDU> kara@BORN.phys.virginia.edu (Kara Jayne Keeter) writes:
>Fourth:  manipulation.  Manipulation is a sensitive subject for survivors
>who were manipulated as children.  When I think I detect someone trying
>to manipulate me, I get angry.  On the other hand, a lot of times I probably
>am manipulated without being aware of it.  I would like to see asar as a
>place where we can experiment and practise our skills of establishing
>boundaries and refusing to be manipulated.  Specifically, if someone feels
>the need to express that they feel manipulated, I hope we can hear them
>and express our own views without attacking anyone.

I don't know about others (although I have suspicions... dark chuckle :-)
but when I'm stressed I frequently revert to manipulative tactics.  I
don't want to, but when that's all you were exposed to as a child it's
hard to do otherwise.

It would seem Relkie is under a bit of stress; besides she hasn't had
the time to modify inappropriate responses.  I agree with the people who
say to cut her some slack.


Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: a message from solitary
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:55:12 GMT
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

In article <Bt44rE.HA2@twwells.com> anon-1016@twwells.com (Prisoner) writes:

text deleted for bandwidth

>This morning, I began a response. I became very sick because of
>the attempt and was unable to finish. For right now, I wish to
>say only a few things. Yes, we had sex. However, her recollection
>differs somewhat from mine. Also, the way she told of the event
>left out an awful lot of important things, things that I think
>make a very big difference in how that event will be viewed.
>Until I am able to finish writing about it, it is my hope that
>people will suspend judgement.
>
hello prisoner. i don't think any of us are in a postion, nor wish to,
judge anyone. i don't see that as my role in this group or "outside"
in my life. i will say the same to you as i did to relkie; if, by
using this forum, you are able to work on your recovery, then please
continue to do so. please consider how what you are about to say will
affect this group as a whole. you are certainly entitled to express
your part in this events, but in doing so, please do not be
manipulatory and expect us to take sides. i do NOT want to see
divisons between our friends that we saw before, with you two at the
center. 

none of us will ever know what happened on that night; i am trying to
look at it as i do all similar circumstances - that the truth probably
lies somewhere in the middle. if you feel that by sharing your part of
it will bring a quick end to another round of "he said, she said" then
do so. i personally will choose not to read "an awful of important
things" if by telling them the situation begins to escalate as before.
*my* healing is awfully important to me as is everyone else's to them.
please be considerate of that fact.
peace to you
sally


>Prisoner
>
>
>
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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:45:28 GMT
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

In article <1992Aug20.160839.28816@reed.edu> bob@reed.edu (Robert Ankeney) writes:
>Poohbear -
>    I had to come back to your post and say it really touched me.  It reached
>an old, pained part of me from long ago.  Please don't cut yourself.  Try
>writing.  I write every day in a journal and it helps.  Try using a pen for
>your knife and words for your blood.  You may be surprised at how deep words
>can cut.  Writing down my pain, and sometimes reading it back out loud to
>myself can relieve the pressures of conflict I sometimes feel.

this is an excellent suggestion. and i like the analogy of pen/knife
and words/blood. thanks robert.

another idea along similar lines, would  be to paint or draw. you
mentioned, pooh bear, that you drew a happy picture. maybe you could
also use this medium when you're feeling pain or anger. i have worked
with people in the past doing just this, and from my own experience
also, art is tremendous therapy. i have a friend who is an epileptic -
he paints during seizure sometimes; the results are amazing. an
insight into another world. drawing mandalas was the work i did -
you begin by drawing a large circle on paper and then just fill it
with whatever comes to mind. seems very simple, but the results are
staggering. i'll post more info if there's an interest. 

anyway, i hope you're continuing to go forward pooh bear. peace to
you.
sally

>     Take care, and congratulations on holding on.  Remember always there is
>a clear space on the other side of pain.  It's worth finding each time.
>
>     Robert
>
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Robert Ankeney                 | "Yield and overcome.                |
>...!tektronix!reed!bob         |  Bend and be straight.              |
>...!tektronix!bob@reed.EDU     |  Empty and be full."    - Lao Tzu   |
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1186@twwells.com (Lavender)
Subject: none
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 09:43:54 GMT


I am getting more and more frightened and manipulated by the words that are
appearing here ...

I don't understand, although I think I really want to, as to what Prisoner's
problem is.

I am prepared to stick it out because I am not a quitter but this is getting
very disquieting.

I am not going to email anything to anyone to ask for anyone's side of the story
The whole question has been entered into publicly in this newsgroup and must
(IMHO) be concluded here as well.

Please spit out your story Prisoner !!! You have said that you will, so if
you ever wish to be trusted again, please do it and do it fast. If by some
chance you did not say publicly that you would give your side of the story then
would someone please correct me, but I certainly have the impression and the
expectation that Prisoner's side of the story will appear publicly.

I am open to email if anyone feels that it would help me understand the whole
situation that has reared its ugly head, but I believe the healing process for
this group can only be achieved by publicly looking at the issues. I find it
very unselltling that there are so many undercurrents of distrust, fear,
hate, and denial that are floating around here.

I am waiting for replies and will keep reading and posting my gut reactions
and I can sure as hell understand why some folk have chosen to stop reading
this newsgroup until the air is a hell of a lot less foggy than it is now!!!!!

Yes I am angry and it feels good to be able to express it !



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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: Relkie/Prisoner - both true?
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:26:44 GMT

In article <Bt6JHz.CJy@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Gavin.Flower@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Gavin Flower) writes:
>Even in simple situations, and this one is NOT, two people can see the
>same object and make conflicting statements.  If two people sit at
>right angles to a square table with an object in the centre.  One may
>describe it as a vase, the other as a mug - simply because only the
>second person could see the handle.  When people have different
>emotional and intellectual perspectives, and the "object" is a series
>of events, then there is considerably more scope for conflict.

That was the point I was trying to make in my post.  (I was also quite
angry, so this part may not have been clear).

BTW, I am _not_ talking specifically about Prisoner and Relkie, but
middle-aged adult/teenager relationships in general.

An adult and a teenager having a strong clash with her (or his!) parents
_can't_ see things the same way.  On top of that, an adult can generally
manipulate a teenager fairly easily in many situations, even unintentionally,
because of the gulf in their experiences.

In that situation the adult should be expected to anticipate later
confusion by the teenager and should steer well clear of anything
which can be misinterpreted.  I don't give a gnat's ass how much
they 'discuss' things before time -- that situation is inherently
unstable.

The situation is closer to "negligance resulting in sex/rape," but
because the adult actually had sex it is filed as rape (or 'date rape').
Even if the adult is found innocent, s/he has to appear in court, pay
a defense attorney, have hir name smeared in the press, etc.

A good analogy is someone smoking while pumping gasoline.  S/he may
smoke all the time, s/he may get gas all the time, but if s/he smokes
while pumping gas s/he should expect to get blown to bits one day.
And even if s/he doesn't cause an explosion, many people will be happy
to throw the book at people stupid enough to do something that dangerous.

Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1012@twwells.com (All Me of Us)
Subject: Re: Confronting my mother (LONG)
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 00:14:50 GMT

Welcome, Sheila.  You are in the right place.  Thank you for
sharing your story with us.  It gave me some things to think
about.

You say:
>If any of you have stuck with this I want to repeat that my
>husband is posting this for me.  My name is Sheila and you can send
>stuff to me at his "address".  I do accept hugs.  And I need
>a few.  It's been a while since I've felt this small.

First, here's a huge hug.  And another.  I know what it's like
to feel small and not quite know what to do next.

At this point, I don't have many clear memories of the sexual part
of my abuse history.  I've chosen not to tell anyone in my family
that I consider myself an incest survivor and not to talk to them
about any of the memories I do have.  I'm not ready to have my
reality challenged or minimized.  And I'm sure that's what they'd
do if I talked about it.  So I don't.  

Sometimes I can tap into enormous rage at my mother for not stopping
the emotional and physical abuse.  I don't talk to her about it
because I'm sure she wouldn't know what I'm talking about.  And I
guess I'm still protecting her a little; I'm afraid her feelings
would overwhelm her and she wouldn't be able to take care of
herself, and "it would be my fault."  I put that in quotes because
I'm convinced that's what my sisters would think.  I may be wrong
about that, but it's not worth it to me at this point to find out.

Anyhow, that's some of what your story reminded me of in mine.
Congratulations for finding the courage to express your anger
at your mother.  To answer your question, I believe recovery is
possible without involving your original family.  It has certainly
happened for me.

Welcome again.  Keep coming back; I want to hear more of your story.


All Me of Us



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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: johnl@gss.com (John Light)
Subject: Re: This group.
Organization: Graphic Software Systems, Beaverton, OR
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:06:39 GMT

In article <19AUG199211053655@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov> aatresa@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (Teresa Kline) writes:
>For some of us, curling up in a corner is the only defense right now.  What 
>is it that you think we should be learning.  There is a difference between 
>conflict (ie a difference of opinion) and rape (which is what Relkie feels 
>happened to her).  And I don't know what anyone learns by watching or 
>experiencing a rape.

But we're not watching the rape.  We encourage people to tell their stories
on a.s.a.r., but there is one person who mustn't.  Why?

John Light
johnl@gss.com
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: cloister@milton.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Subject: Re: Possibly Relevent Insight, and Comments on Pat Buchanan's Speech
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:57:37 GMT

[soap-box on]
interesting as this debate is, i feel that it's not really asar material.  as
far as i can tell, individual political beliefs don't have much to do with
healing from sexual abuse.  political differences of opinion, like holy wars
and operating system superiority debates, are the sort that will never end.  
imho, asar doesn't really need any more vitrious differences of opinion right
now, especially on something that should go in alt.politics or e-mail.
[soap-box off]
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Abuse
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:58:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.210708.25952@unislc.uucp> erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>: This is secondhand, but when my mother learned I was starting to see
>: a psychologist she commented that "they always trace it back to the
>: parents."  (I know I got a lot of discouragement from her directly,
>: but she made that comment to another relative).
>
>Who *else* are they going to trace it back to other than family members?
>An overwhelming percentage of abuse comes from family members, usually
>immediate family. :(

"It" isn't "abuse", "it" is "his problems".  His mother was worried that
psychologists were going to blame her for his problems.  Even the most
committed student of abusive families has to admit that not all problems
are due to environment or one's upbringing.  Some people have mental
problems of their own making, or they just come that way due to bad genes.
Sometimes there's no one to blame.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: Confronting my mother (LONG)
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:45:34 GMT

Just one more thought on staying in touch with your original family--
watch out for "family therapists". In my experience (I've had one for
a therapist and listened to another regularly on a radio talk show),
they really want to get people back into their families. They also
have the awful habit of saying "I'd love it if you....." when they
want you to do something you don't want to do. It's important to
remember what they'd "love" is their problem, not yours.

I just know that I feel more solid and happier when I'm out of touch
with my parents, and worse when I'm with them. *This* *is* *strongly*
*true* even if I feel a lot of pain about not wanting to be around 
them.  (That pain is why that therapist kept trying to get me back
to my family.) 

I haven't healed yet in any general sense, but if it seems as though
someone is trying to drag you (or get you to drag yourself) into
someone that feels as though it's very bad for you, don't do it! 
    ^^^ 
     (I meant to say "something", but it's such a great Freudian
slip that I don't want to erase it.) 

Also, I'm going to be gone for about a month, and I'll miss this 
group. I haven't had it together to offer emotional support, and
I regret that, but I'll be back in mid-September, and, I hope, 
more communicative. 

                                   E-hugs to all who want them,
                                   Nancy 
 
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: awatson@pecan.cns.udel.edu (angela watson)
Subject: Just a friendly warning...
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 04:32:26 GMT

This isn't the typical asar post... just something FYI.

The new Batman hardcover book is out. (_Night_Cries_ by DC).  It is about
child abuse (including more than one instance of child abuse). I felt
the story was very well written (definately worth the book's retail price),
but it may be rather disturbing for some of this group's readers to read.

I have no idea if anyone here would actually have read this (or is
about to read it -- ie a fan of Batman) but it's not something that is
easy to read. I'm not suggesting that anyone who doesn't normally read
this sort of artistic material (he isn't called the Dark Knight for nothing)
to go out and get a copy.  I just thought I'd give a little more warning
to other readers than I got...

					Sincerely,
					AMW

                                              

Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1186@twwells.com (Lavender)
Subject: Filing a police report
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 03:43:11 GMT


Glenn said ...

GAT> 
GAT> I went to the police department to file a report of the abuse I
GAT> suffered as a kid. This was a mighty big step for me and a way of
GAT> stating that _I did not do anything wrong and I'm not to blame_.


and I say ... wow!!! and congrats ...

with folk the likes of you teaching the police force how to do their jobs,
there really is hope for all of us ....

	go for it ... :-)



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