HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dsloan@seas.gwu.edu (David M. Sloan)
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:37:37 GMT


bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
: In article <1992Nov3.144931.20365@nysernet.org>, Alan Stein writes:
: > What I will point out is
: >documented fact, although you will probably try to dismiss it as
: >Zionist propaganda.
: 
: >On May 15, 1967, Egyptian forces returned to the Sinai, in violation
: >of the agreements ending the 1956 war.  On May 17, Cairo radio
: >proclaimed "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which
: >wil put an end to Israel."  
: [...]
: >On May 18, Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs announced the following:
: 
: >"As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force
: >to protect Israel.  We shall exercise patience no more.  We shall not
: >complain any more to the UN about Israel.  The sole method we shall
: >apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the
: >extermination of Zionist existence."
: 
: As for "documented", I challenge you to provide 
: documentation for either of these "quotations".  Haha, good joke.
: 
: Brendan.
	Ask and ye shall receive.
	
	The first quote is from Isi Liebler's THE CASE FOR ISRAEL, page 60.
	The second quote is from the same book page 70.
If you're at Australian National University, you should be able to find it, as it was published in Australia.
					Shalom L'cha,
						Dave
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: 1967 war again (was: Re: Rebel attack....)
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 06:30:46 GMT

In article <1di8ahINNdgj@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

#(c) A report of the broadcast in a contemporary newspaper, preferably
#not one in an "enemy" country.

I have posted such quotes from the TIME and from Churchill and
Churchill's book. I am quite certain recordings of the original
broadcasts exist, but frankly I am not in a position now to
look for them. As for ear-witnesses, same goes.

#(e) An account from a historian of accepted high reputation.

Name some and I can try ask them.

#This is especially true because both are presented as unconditional
#Egyptian proclamations of war at a time when Egyptian official 
#communiques were denying that Egypt intended war.   

That was the position they tried to convey to the outside world,
true, but there is nothing new about that. No one ever admits
that they want war, there is always some excuse. Even the Nazis
claimed they are taking Poland etc "in self defense" or because
the territories in question "really belonged to us".

#The only similar
#pronouncements that I've seen documented FROM THAT TIME had the 
#conditional structure "We want peace, but if Israel attacks us, Israel 
#will be destroyed".  

Well, even Sadat (hardly a pro-Israeli source) quotes Nasser as
knowing that closing the straits and sending the forces to Sinai
would bring war. 

It must be possible to get some Arab newspapers from that time,
as I have seen excerpts from them. I doubt, however, that Brown
carries any. Anyway, the excerpts I have seen leave no doubt as
to what the true intention was.

-Danny Keren.




Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Re: That Wacky Israel line (Re: Those Wacky Iranians)
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 22:16:46 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.213515.13055@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <BxKGqr.7Hs@newsflash.concordia.ca>, ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>|> Now it turned out that that key witness (who is a german citizen
>|> with an iraqi origin) was lying.. He admitted that as soon as he
>|> left Jordan claiming that he was forced to do that..
>|> The Jordanian persecution (right spelling here) charged him
>|> with obstruction of justice.. This of course after the Jordanian
>|> members of Parlement who were being tried got 20 years
>|> Jail sentences with hard labor (not subject to appeals).. 
>|> I wonder why the Israel line did not inform you about this!
>
>Where is it that you have heard of this? Can you give us a source?
>
I got it from the latest issue of Alhayat (An Arabic Newspaper
which is printed in Paris, I think). It is generally neutral and
reliable, and they get their news from the regular wire services.
I mean by neutral, neutral in the fight between governments and
Islamic oppositions.. although as a secular magazine it tends to
lean to the secular governments.

>Harry.
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Phil's racist remarks (was Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out)
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:06:44 GMT

In article <4s0RTB1w163w@peewee>, peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer) writes:
> 
>         >Brad writes:
>         >Here is my point.  If you say it is baloney to think that it 
>         >matters whether a company is owned by Japanese or Americans, 
>         >why do you think it matters if a company is owned by Arabs? 
>         >Why don't you equate Japanese ownership of companies in the U.S. 
>         >with ownership by the Japanese government? 
>         
> Because there are PRIVATE Japanese investors that use their own money        
> and influence to buy things, NOT because the Japanese investors are
> agents of the Japanese government.
>         
>         >Correct my if I am wrong but I was not aware that UPI was
>         >purchased by the Saudi government or that UPI's offices were 
>         >all carted off and set up in Saudi Arabia. 
>         
> You may consider yourself corrected.  The UPI was purchased by the
> brother of Prince Bandar, with money received from the Saudi govt.
> Like I said, when the UPI prints just ONE story critical of anything
> to do with the Saudi government, I'll be convinced they're legit.

According to the Wall Street Journal, UPI was purchased by the Middle
East Broadcasting Centre Ltd. The MBC is a UK based (not Saudi based)
media company. The MBC has bureaus throughout the world including one in
Jerusalem, of all places. According to WSJ, the MBC's primary investor
is Walid al-Ibrahim, who is a brother-in-law of King Fahd. The UPI
serves some 100 newspapers around the world (compare to 1500 for the
Associated Press).

Again, where does the control by the Saudi government come in here?
Would you consider Mr. Bush's investments or his sons' investments to be
controlled by the U.S. government even when they are located in the
U.S.? If not, why do you claim that UPI, based outside of Saudi Arabia,
is corrupted unless you believe Arabs to be different than other people?

About your request that UPI get into the business of political
commentary and editorializing, personally, I wouldn't trust a news
source which thought it was in the business of reporting their own
opinion rather than the news. :-)
And you say you are a journalism major? Shame on your professors.


Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Syrian-Russian arms deal falls through 
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 18:55:37 GMT
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University

Cross-posted without authorization from s.c.l, enjoy.
Thanks to Ayman Kayssi

	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- Moscow has canceled the proposed sale to Syria of
$2 billion worth of jet fighters, anti-missile systems and tanks as a
result of Damascus' inability to pay cash for the high-tech weapons
package, U.S. analysts and Arab diplomats said Thursday.
	A Russian delegation recently travelled to Syria to seal the deal, to
which both nations agreed last year.
	But Russia's all-cash demand to Syria, which owes Moscow nearly $15
billion from past sales of weapons and other goods, soured the deal,
they said.
	``The Syrians wanted it, but the deal didn't go through because they
couldn't afford to pay cash for the weapons,'' a U.S. analyst speaking
under conditions of anonymity told United Press International.
	Russia has refused to extend credit to Syria since the disintegration
of the Soviet Union, U.S. analysts and Arab diplomats in Washington
said. Damascus, which has its own severe financial woes, has in turn
lost its primary weapons supplier.
	The sale of 24 MIG-29 jet fighters, 12 Sukhoi-27 fighter-bombers, 300
T-72 and T-74 tanks and an unspecified number of SA-10 and SA-16
missiles -- which the Lebanese newspaper Al-Hayat said Monday was a done
deal -- would pose a quandry for the United States.
	Syria participated in the Gulf War coalition that ousted Iraq from
Kuwait and in the Middle East peace talks. But the Arab nation remains
on the administration's list of countries that support international
terrorism, which precludes Washington from selling any arms to Syria.
	Furthermore, U.S. officials have said, Syrian President Hafez al-
Assad is inceasingly seen as the key that American policymakers need to
unlock the door leading to better relations with Arabs in the oil-rich
Persian Gulf region.
[...]
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:43:28 GMT
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711

In article <4361@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1992Nov12.034250.12822@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
>>
>>	Jump in?!?  I'm already in it, neck high.  In fact I'm trying to 
>>	climb out! :)
>
>Why don't you do all of us a favor and take this via email - it has nothing
>to do with talk.politics.mideast.

	Neither does the discussion about the Egyptian singer.  She maybe
	mideastern but it had nothing to do with politics.  Of course I
	forgot you're too mature for me oh Ohm Maturity.

>
>I'll send you a shovel ...
>
	Thanks.
		Geoff

>Anisa
>
>	"The best kind - angry, rebellious, critical - a renegade ..."
>


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Kahan Commission
Date: 13 Nov 1992 07:04:45 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

Somebody asked about the recommendations of the Kahan Commission
into the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla and how they compare to
what actually happenned.  Here is a partial summary.

Ariel Sharon (Defense Minister)
 KC: [Sharon should] "draw the appropriate personal conclusions"
     i.e., resign ... "and if necessary, .. the Prime Minister
     [should] consider whether he should exercise his authority
     ..[to] 'remove a minister from office'".
 What happenned: Begin forced him to step down as Defense Minister
     but allowed him to remain in the Cabinet.  After the next
     election he was appointed Minister of Industry and Trade.

Rafael Eitan (Chief of Staff)
  KC: Despite its "grave conclusions with regard to [his] acts
      and omissions", no punishment was recommended since "an
      extension of his term [was] not under consideration".
  What happenned: He served the remainder of his term.  Later
      he was elected to the Knesset.

Amos Yaron (Division Commander)
   KC: "[He should] not serve in the capacity of a field
      commander in the IDF" and that recommendation should not
      be reconsidered for three years.
   What happenned: He was promoted to major general and put in
      charge of the army manpower division.  Later he was
      appointed military attache in Washington.

 "An investigation which results in such 'punishments' is not 
  an investigation which can be taken seriously.  It was my
  introduction to a popular form of hypocrisy ...[that] a 
  Lebanese friend of mine liked to call 'moral double bookkeeping'.
  All the players in the Middle East do it.  They keep one set of
  moral books, to show how righteous they are, to show the outside
  world, and one set of moral books, which proclaim how ruthless
  they are, to show each other."
  [T. Freidman, From Beirut to Jerusalem, p165]

Sources: Freidman's book and the Kahan Commission report.

Brendan.
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:17:11 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Nov4.171930.11972@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
~jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
~
~#I think the term for this is "making the desert bloom"?
~
~Yeh, what a funny guy JH is! Unfortunately, Ramya is not in the desert.

That was exactly my point.






-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

~"I hope you realise that it's probably against the Computing Regulations
~ to do that." - M. Holmesatollah
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: s2780369@techst02.technion.ac.il (David Ben-ami)
Subject: Farewell to TPM! :-()
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:16:29 GMT


Hello all TPM Readers,

  I am now leaving school after graduation as a BSc in Computer Science
  and going to fill my duty of army service in the IDF. I probably
  wouldn't  have any opportunity to participate in the TPM forum.

  Although the flaming and name-calling is quite rampant in this forum
  I nonetheless enjoyed the debates very much, and in many cases enriched
  my acquaintance with opposite views and angles. In many cases I was
  informed (either by pure information in the articles or by looking
  up sources to refute not-so-accurate information that I encountered).
  Not to mention the contribution to my English and typing skills 
  [I guess I should improve on them even more in the future :-)]

  To all Jewish and Israeli people I wish: Chizku Ve'Imzu
  and I hope that many of our Arab colleagues will be more open
  and less provocative (as part of such change in the Arab world).
  [ In this I refer mainly to Elgahni and partly to Anisa ]

Shalom from Israel,

  David Ben-Ami.

-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@techst02.technion.ac.il |       Oskar Wilde
  davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il      |   "Heisenberg MAY have slept here".
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.lebanon
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu)
Subject: Re: Challenging the Emir (LONG)
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 07:01:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov07.035215.2420327@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:

>
>Your morals don't measure up to the dignity of those in the West Bank
>that fight injustice on a daily bases.  It is easy for you to
>comment on them with your Dad's money in the bank.  Only Allah
>SWT knows what kind of hell the west bank people are going thru by
>the Israeli terrorist.  I advise you to just concentrate
>on the toys your Dady bought you, and hope that Saddam does not
>invade your country again while you are visiting Kuwait.  Why should
>I say that any way?  The ones that suffered from the Iraqi invasion
>were only the poor people of Kuwait.  Anwar probably was safe
>in the west in the Disco, and the poor had to fight the occupation.


	Tell me, jle, does fighting injustice also inlcude terrorizing
	fellow Palestinians because they happen to be Christian.  Does
	this help fight the occupation?  Is this dignified?  Tell us,
	enquiring minds want to know.

	-Geoff

>
>jle
>


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:24:42 GMT

In article <27669@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>In article <1d4e74INN358@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri) writes:

>~October 30, 1992. Differnet news agencies (RTw, UPI) have reported that Arab
>~residents of the village of Ramya in the Galilee (Israel) have been given
>~orders of eviction in order to build new residences for new Jewish
>~immigrants. The Israeli government is planning to wipe out the village
>~location and name from the map. The eviction is take place in the week of Nov
>~1 - Nov 9, 1992.

>I think the term for this is "making the desert bloom"?

Except that the Galilee is not a desert.

Cheap shots often hit the firer in the foot. :)




Good thing I'm wearing bullet-proof boots. :)

Adam

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.lebanon
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Arithmetic Error (was Re: It's no Use (was Re: ...))
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:58:32 GMT

In article <BxGJI6.Crn@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <nabeel.721258003@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Bulbul) writes:
>> A lot of equations..
>
>I do not about your lengthy analysis (I have my probability  side of the
>brain shut down right now :-)
>
>but you did not have to make such analysis..
>For our purposes now:
>Assumes Israel does not kill its own agents so P(killed by IDF/agent)=0
>
>550 killed by Palestinians: assume  500 agents killed by Palestinians
>out of 1000 agents: Bernoulli trials with p=0.5, N=1000 gives:
>sigma=sqrt(1000x0.5x0.5)= 15.8  and average=500 when we use the Gaussian
>approximation)
>
>and 550-500= 50 innocents killed by Palestinians.
>Prob(killed by pal/innocent)= 50/999,000= 0.0051%
>prob (k by IDF/ innocent)= 450/999,000= 0.046%
>much higher than the first.

Ilyess, this is an excellent example of how bad conclusions come from
bad assumptions.  Implicit in your analysis is the assumption that 90%
of those killed by Palestinians were not innocent.  I maintain that not
only is there no proof for that assumption, but also that every piece of
evidence we have about the intifada speaks against that assumption.  I
think it would be on the conservative side to say that at *least* 50% -
probably well over 80% -  of those killed by Pallestinian gangs in the
intrafada were innocent.  
-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Date: 10 Nov 92 02:52:54 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

Jake writes:

>As usual, when documentation annoys Brendan, he claims that it is all
>mythical invention, anyways.  Boring.

So what are you up to these days Jake?

Do we *really* have to wait ten years to have Bush replace Nixon?

:-)  Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 02:11:20 GMT

In article <1dn0i5INNb29@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
|> 
|> In article 18155@trl.oz.au, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
|> >In article <1dk9h2INNnqm@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
|> 
|> >|>       MEQ #17.  Teveth on Ben-Gurion's vision of the future of Israel, 1937.
|> [...]
|> 
|> >Did Ben-Gurion have an idea of where the Jewish state's borders should be?.
|> 
|> I don't have a clear idea of this.  I think it varied during his life,
|> but I don't know of any instance where he called for an empire from the
|> Nile to the Euphrates as a few Zionists did.  Certainly he wanted all
|> of what was called Palestine in 1937 (now Israel+WB+Gaza) but probably
|> also Lebanon up to the Litani, the Golan, and parts of Jordan.
|> 
|> >A.Faris
|> 
|> Brendan.
|>
 
Thus if the peace process comes to an end (which it will), Israel will annex
south Lebanon. Then 2/3 of the Israeli expansion goal beyond the borders of 
Palestine would have been realised. This leaves the east bank of the Jordan
river for future conquest.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 15:53:41 GMT

In article <1da7vgINN3n@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>Straight out of Myths and Facts.  I thought you were trying to learn
>something, Alan.  As for "documented", I challenge you to provide 
>documentation for either of these "quotations".  Haha, good joke.
>
>Brendan.

As usual, when documentation annoys Brendan, he claims that it is all
mythical invention, anyways.  Boring.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.lebanon