From: seyyed@wuee1.wustl.edu (Seyyed Mahdavian)
Subject: Re: Mo'afi , another way of making money
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:23:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.105046.392@fmg.bt.co.uk> ghbr@fmg.bt.co.uk (Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani) writes:

> You are confused Sayyed. The system is based on the early primitive societies
>                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
> values, where, a) families "owned" their members, b) killing wasn`t a (social)
> crime but an aggression against a family, c) the killer would be "revenged"
> rather than being "punished" and d) it was up to the family to carry out the
> revenge, get a compensation or let the murderer go free if they like (or even
> kill a member of the murderer's family if they couldn't get hold of the
> murderer her/himself).

You talk as if YOU designed the system !!! No Mr., the system is based on God's
revelation to Prophet Mohammad(s) to DEAL with societies in the past, present 
and future. You say yourself that in some societies of the past, the family of 
the victim could kill a member of the killer's family. Also in Arabia, people 
used to bury alive female children, to commit prostitution, to worship Idols, 
to drink wine, to do gambling, ... but Islam is not only not based on these
things, but will fight them for ever! Now tell me, am *I* confused or are 
*you* ?

> 
> But, Seyyed, we live in a different world, if you have yet failed to notice.  
> 

There is no use in giving slogans. We (assumably) are both logical persons and
we can reason about what is right and what is wrong. How to deal with a killer
is independent of the society we live in. It is impossible to claim that for
example at the time of the Prophet(s) murderers should not be punished, but
at this time it is necessary. If you are referring to "justice", this is 
time-independent. All I asked you is to tell us what exactly you suggest to
be done with killers, murderers, ... so that justice be perfectly done.


> > The decision is up to the family of the victim. Now if the killer is a 
> > professional killer who threatens the security of the community, he is 
> > "mofsed fel-arz" and he will be executed.
>
> You are confused again.  You don't have to be a murderer to become a "mofsed
> fel-arz" in Iran today.  The overwhelming majority of the thousands marked as
> "mofsed fel-arz" and executed in Iran in the last 13 years had never killed
> anybody.  Professional killers like Khalkhali, Gilani, Lajavardi etc were
> rather rewarded for their "service to Islam" by the authorities.


I am beginning to believe that everytime you blame me of being confused, it is
in fact YOU who are confused. I said "a murderer who threatens the security of
the society is a mofsed fel-arz" which means that a SUFFICIENT condition (and
not a neccessary condition) for being a "mofsed fel-arz" is to be a "murderer
who ... ". Yes, indeed some other people are "mofsed fel-arz" without having
killed anybody. This is not something unique to Islam. For example, the
punishment for desertion in the army (of even western countries) can very well
be death. Now coming to your claim about "majority of the thousands ... "
though it is not related to our discussion, and though theoretically nothing
is wrong with that, I suggest you to calm down and not write statements that
you cannot prove.

> > This seems fair to me. DO YOU HAVE A BETTER SUGGESTION?
> 
> No, the reward system seems to work o.k.
> 
> -hossein

Does your "No" refer to my question, or do you mean that you don't agree with
my first statement? What reward system? Please be more specific. Do you mean
giving reward to everybody who does not kill? :-) What is your "madineye 
fAzeleh? Again please tell us what exactly you suggest we should do with
killers and muderers and why?

> p.s.  I'll be away from 20th August to 7th Sept.  So you are free to respond as
> you like as I won't be around to disturb your mind (though others may be!)

I am very patient. I'll wait for you until September 7th. I'll keep this
discussion specially for you. I even won't answer the garbage of others.
I give the honour of "disturbing my mind" only to you !!! When you are
back, just send me an e-mail as a signal.

Seyyed.       <seyyed@wuee1.wustl.edu>  (be careful with "1" and "l")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian