HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 07:04:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) NCTENet (17)

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 16:41:15 -0400
From: Nancy Allen <eng_allen@EMUNIX.EMICH.EDU>
Message-id: <9208182041.AA08099@emunix.emich.edu>
Subject: NCTENet (17)
Reply-to: Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar) <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>

Robert, Could you tell us more about the NCTENet?  What does it provide?  Is
it an alternative to Internet?  What do you mean when you say we could all get
together that is different from what MBU offers?  I could easily imagine
paying a fee for some electronic journal service but still having to suscribe
to CE and CCC because they wouldn't be equivalent or carry the same things.
Sorry to be so dumb about this, but this is the first I've heard.  Nancy Allen
eng_allen@emunix.emich.edu

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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 08:36:00 EST
From:         Joel Nydahl <NYDAHL@BABSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: bits and shreds of End of Book letters

I'd like to add one tidbit to Eric's fine contribution--words to live by:

        Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend; inside of a dog
        it's too dark to read. -- Groucho Marx.

Cheers.

Joel Nydahl
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:45:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply to John E.

John E., I agree with what you say.  To encourage questioning,
especially of students, is a dangerous business for everyone,
even those who encourage the questioning.  And institutions under
the axe use our doubts to justify cuts we never would sanction.
And people get hurt, and many good ideas get sliced from the
"main" (to continue Myles' Donne association).  But, but, but.
All forms, especially institutions, get hard and then fragment,
reform, get hard, and then fragment.  The harder they get, the
more they're ready for cracking, like a nut.  A recent book by a
Hoover Institute fellow,tin Anderson, called _Imposters in the
Templ{_, (Simon & Shuster, 1992) depresents a popular view of
universities that is chilling, thoughly easily seen as biased
(Anderson was a principal figure in the elections of both Nixon
and Reagan).  I just feel that academics have to stop being so
defensive regarding presumed traditional values and{respond to
what plenty of others see as major changes occurring.  Fred Kemp,
TTU

PS, my last sentence might seem silly in terms of the usual
attack upon college professors as "radicals," but my experience
as I talk to the more "working" element of universities is that
college professors are better at digging defensive positions than
breaking new ground.
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:32:33 -0500
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: no duking

Well, John R., it keeps students off the unemployment rolls.  As students they
produce: papers, fees, etc, and feed money into the economy instead of taking
it out.  We produce information, the future engine of the economy.
And we produce as an institution workers who will produce more than uneducated
workers, whatever we teach.  All that we teach goes to make people more
skillful handlers of information and better producers of information.
What more could the economy ask?
Myles
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:36:17 EDT
From:         rselfe@MTU.EDU
Subject:      post the biblio.

Russ,
Why not post the bib. here on MBU?  At any rate, I'd like a copy.
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 07:44:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) NCTE how many members and how much capital (19)

Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 06:58:40 EDT
From:         IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Aug18.065840.2.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      NCTE how many members and how much capital (19)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  Robert Royar
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

Three cents per page, per copy, per student is reasonable, but to me that's
not the issue--the issue is the organization's justifying the charge by
arguing that it hasn't the money to keep up expenses.

When NYIT was contemplating bidding on the NCTENet(*) (which we decided against)
,
we were told NCTE paid membership was near 100,000.  At an average of $40.00
per member that's $4,000,000.00 annually.  And this does not count the
"kickbacks" from credit card companies, insurance programs, the promo sales,
the extra journals, books, etc.  Each affiliate makes some money from its
membership, and that money goes to print its own materials and provide for
todos at conventions etc.  Authors do not get paid for the articles that are
"selected" not even royalties on reproduction.  Where does the dues money go?

(*) The rumor is Myles Myers believes we don't need an NCTENet--that we should
use FAX machines.  (Mayhap we should use HIS FAX machine--again and again and
again....)  Honestly, are there enough of us on here to begin a write-in
campaign to get this service?  Bill Wright (of BreadNet) was talking about
needing only 100 members to begin. I'd be willing to pay a reasonable
per-month charge for access to a network connected to internet where we could
all get together. I'd rather have this than a subscription to CE or CCC.  And
the public school Language Arts teachers across the country would finally be
able to get onto Internet and talk to us.  They really are doing some
whiz-bang stuff out there--I see just a bit on BreadNet.  The hoped-for cost
was $10.00 per month.  (NOTE: The total could be higher depending on the type
of phone access provided for those without university Internet accounts.
NYIT's 800 access costs the school $11.00 per hour just for the phone
connection over an 800 line.  It costs substantially more when the line
carries information.  We couldn't provide what the NCTE specification required
within the desired price range.)

Write Michael Spooner <NCTE@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU> and Myles Myers to tell them the
NET is not the same as a FAX.

 --Robert Royar (r0mill01@ulkyvx.bitnet) New York Institute of Technology

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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:16:00 EST
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: well said

Wini: please do.  I think it's really Eric's idea, but I have no compunction
about telling you that it's yours.  I'd love to know how it comes out.
In my course too.
Myles
From: lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Total immersion in e-discourse?
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:59:33 GMT
Reply-To: <lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Some foreign language teachers prefer to teach the entire course in the 
foreign language, or almost all of it.

Has anyone here taught a writing course totally by written communication
(or almost all by written communication)?

E-mail and file servers make total immersion and option.  Is it a good one?

(If I fudged, I would be most tempted to do so in a short verbal introduction
to the various electronic media.)

Louie

-- 
  ==========================================================================
  Louie Crew, Assoc. Prof., Academic Foundations Dept., Rutgers U./NWK 07102
  lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu                                   201-485-4503
                    Heteroprivilege is against New Jersey law!
From: jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU (Jim Porter)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Social Interaction in Computer Classrooms
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:20:23 GMT
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              92 9:54 am

>    Noise may be the initial condition for more important information than
>    that information dependent upon keeping noise to a minimum.

Martin,
Sounds like the noise is part of the information (a.k.a. the medium
_is_ the message).  But to get beyond this binary, we should throw
out the concept of noise altogether, which I am happy to do.  I
don't see the various media as lining up in some sort of
continuum from "Pure" to "Noisy" (a.k.a. ideal form---->
thought----->spoken word----->written word).  The different
media are just that: different.  What we have to figure out
is how these differences play out in discourse situations, because
we know (for instance) that problems result when people apply
principles from traditional spoken and written discourse to
electronic discourse.

--------------------
Jim Porter
Purdue University
jporter@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:16:00 EST
From:         BECKY RICKLY <00RJRICKLY@BSUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Relevance?

Bob,
Ball State Bookstores sell crystal balls.  What do we do now?

Becky
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:28:08 EDT
From:         t270101 <T270101@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      signoff

please take me off mailing list
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:16:00 EST
From:         BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Phenomenology and _The Waves_

Chris:
Part of the fluidity of a character's identity happens even in
straightforward narration whenever the narrator uses indirect
discourse to present the characters' thoughts. The narrator may pick
up the characters' words and use them with a slight undercurrent of
derision, for instance. Or (as often happens in Faulkner even when he
is not being a modernist) the narrator may be articulating thoughts
that the character cannot articulate but is nevertheless in some
manner thinking. When Woolf in _To the Lighthouse_ has Mr. Ramsay
compare his mind to a piano keyboard, that seems to be Mr. Ramsay's
own metaphor, as does the related metaphor which compares the progress
of his mind to that of somebody who is trying to recite the alphabet
and can't get to R, and the further metaphor which compares Mr.
Ramsay's attempts to reach R with a polar explorer (Scott, I am sure,
by the way) attempting to reach a destination he won't get to. Just
how far these metaphors are articulate in Mr. R's mind is uncertain to
me--they may be the narrator's way of capturing feelings and thoughts
which are only implicit to Mr. Ramsay himself. Even if they are Mr.
R's thoughts there is still something funny about them, since in that
case even he is using these metaphors to capture a thought he only
partly is able to bring into language.

Even conventional narrators can adopt multiple points of view. I'm not
only thinking of the free indirect style of narration James sometimes
uses. I'm thinking of how narrators sometimes learn things from their
characters. In _Nostromo_, for instance, the narrator (even when he is
not adopting the characters' terms in indirect discourse or as part of
free indirect narration) keep sounding rather like his own characters.
Sometimes he sounds like Decoud, sometimes like Mr. Gould, sometimes
like Mrs. Gould, sometimes like Dr. Monygham. Robert Penn Warren
pointed this out about Nostromo a long time ago--he noted that the
narrator seemed to be using these characters to figure out what he
himself thought, with each character providing him with a stab at a
concept he could not yet get straight in his own mind. (Warren argues
that one reason the narrator is so vicious when he disposes of Decoud
is that he is embarrassed by how much Decoud resembles him.)

Is this what you have in mind?

John
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:28:00 EST
From:         00D0HENRIKSE@BSUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Relevance?

Thomas: How well you describe Buchanan in his "xenephobic zeal."  That's
one scary man up there who would eliminate all of "them" so "we" would be
comfortable again.  I'm a little afraid the polarizing is getting more
frenetic rather than less . . . and tolerance is becoming obsolete, pro
moted only by the damn liberals of which university professors are
the prime examples.  Uncovering societies' "deep structures" could be one
of the ways we help our students "change" in one semester.  Big job.
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 09:46:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Computers under glass (11)

Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 09:29:26 EDT
From:         IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Aug22.092926.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      Computers under glass (11)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  Robert Royar
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

We (NYIT) had the computer under the desk set up for five years (up until this
summer).

   - The ambient light reflections turned out to be more annoying
     than we anticipated.  Most users complained often about those
     problems.
   - If the computers were locked in to the desks (necessary in the
     NYC area I'm told), getting them out for maintenance was a
     major chore--and "back breaking".
   - One of my student's had a monitor fall n his foot when the
     desk support failed.
   - Having the connectors so near feet and walk paths meant many
     got kicked loose.
   - The switches for the entire desk were under the desktop on the
     right. Long legged guys more than a few times accidently hit
     the switch with a knee--losing all the unsaved work.
   - IBM told us they would rather not renew our service contract
     if we continued using the computers under the desk as the dust
     and heat conditions exceded the levels set by their acceptable
     environmental conditions.
   - Floppies began failing (because of dust and heat) about a year
     into the installation.  We were losing three-four per class
     per two week periods two years ago.

For these reasons, I couldn't recommend under-desk setups unless you can assure
good underdesk ventilation with very low dust levels.

 -- Robert Royar (r0mill01@ulkyvx.bitnet) New York Institute of Technology
    "The average voter doesn't view himself as articulate, so I
    think they can understand the President."
                                                  -- Bob Teeter
                                                     Bush Campaign Manager

------------------------------
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 10:25:00 EST
From:         John O'Connor <JOCONNOR@GMUVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      NCTE duplicating charges

I recently learned, when putting together a course packet of xeroxed
articles to be distributed through our copy center (sort of an on-campus
Kinkos), that NCTE is charging for the right to duplicate articles from
Cs and CE.  It doesn't seem right to me, and I'm curious what others
think.  And for those with NCTE positions (Fred, is that you?), what the
justification might be.
The authors don't get paid, I pay dues & subscription fees, and the
graduate students in my class end up footing the royalty charges.  NCTE
is doing anything to "earn" that money--no office expenses, labor costs, etc
and the people who authored the work don't benefit.  Seems counter to support
of the spread of knowledge, forcingthose least able to pay to pay.  Most other
journals don't charge, or charge a token amount.
Thoughts? ideas?
John O'Connor
George Mason U
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:36:51 CDT
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Virus Alert!

The comedy channel is the ONLY place to watch a convention for either


party!     Party on, John.  Forget reformatting the hard disks.
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 07:44:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Writing entirely by writing (15)

Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 07:30:32 EDT
From:         IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Aug18.073032.3.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      Writing entirely by writing (15)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  Robert Royar
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

On Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:59:33 GMT Louie Crew <lcrew@ANDROMEDA.RUTGERS.EDU>
asked

>Has anyone here taught a writing course totally by written communication (or
>almost all by written communication)?

I've had some success with small distance-learning (100% computer based)
writing courses.  Those have been Business writing offered by NYIT's American
Open University (name recently changed to The On-line Campus of NYIT).  There
are problems (I'm trying to get an article together about this), but there are
also successes and rewards (Dan Quigley is working on an article about those).
Once I get mine out and about (and rejected), I'd be glad to send it to
interested Net parties.

 --Robert Royar (r0mill01@ulkyvx.bitnet) New York Institute of Technology

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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 19:07:46 CDT
From:         Bob Boston <S2.RSB@ISUMVS.IASTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Problematic?

The last word of my previous message brings up another question:  When did the
meaning of "problematic" change? In my lexicon it has always meant something
like doubtful, unclear, undecided.  But in the last few months a number of
people have used it to refer to something that causes a problem or something
that is a problem.  As I said before, it's hard to keep up with changes.

The Bewildered Bobby B.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:55:49 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Social Interaction in Computer Classrooms

 *** Reply to note of 08/21/92 15:43
 I have not worked for long periods of time at any of these workstations, but
 they are ergonomically designed--workstation and chair together--for comfort.
 The head angle necessary for reading the monitor seems to be about the same as
 for reading a desktop monitor. The main problem with the workstations is
 ambient light reflecting off the glass.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 09:46:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Science writing notes (*COMP.COMP*) (2)

Date: 21 Aug 92 09:53:50 GMT
From: psuvm!rhg@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu
Message-id: <92234.055350RHG@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Science writing notes (*COMP.COMP*) (2)
Reply-to: comp.edu.composition <compos01%ulkyvx.bitnet@ucbvax.Berkeley.edu>

To those of you who may be using my book "Best Science Writing;
Readings and Insights" (Oryx Press, Phoenix, AZ) for your fall
science-writing or technical-writing courses, you may want to
contact me.  I can e-mail you my class notes for about half the
selections.  The notes can give you things to say in class that are
skipped in the text.
======================================================================
Robert Gannon              |  Bitnet:    RHG@PSUVM
35 Burrowes Bldg.          |  Internet:  RHG@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Penn State                 |  Phone:     814 355-4800 or 355-0943
University Park, PA 16802  |  Fax:       814 863-7285

------------------------------
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Organization: Samford University Writing Programs
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:12:26 CDT
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: go for it, Rob
              13 Aug 1992 21:45:13 EDT from <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Oh! I haven't thought of Crusader Rabbit in years!  I _loved_ the show!


David Roberts
Samford University
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 08:08:36 --500
From:         KEELINGJ@VTVM1.BITNET
Subject:      Need resources

 *** Reply to note of 08/11/92 18:54
 I am teaching a section of freshman composition making use of BBS for journal
 entries (which will enable students to respond more freely to each others
 thinking and writing), group presentations, peer review workshops,
 bibliographies, and student conferences.  I will also post model essays and
 university calendar events.  Students will be responsible for 2-3 writing
 tasks per week on the Bulletin Board, and the computer-mediated writing will
 account for 30% of their grade.  I am using a software package called PCBoard
 which will run on a multi-user host computer dedicated to this pilot project.
 Students are able to logon to the BBS from their dorm room computers or from
 one of the university computer labs.

 Since this is the first time I am integrating this kind of technology into my
 classroom (the BBS will augment not replace classroom instruction by the way),
 and since I am new to this list, I am hoping to receive some feedback about the
 use of BBS in the composition classroom.  If anyone has any suggestions about
 additional applications for the software, trouble-shooting, etc., please drop
 me a note:  keelingj@vtvm1.

 thank you,

 john k.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:36:00 EDT
From:         WWOOD@LUCY.WELLESLEY.EDU
Subject:      Re: well said

Eric/Myles:

I really like the idea that the two of you have collectively (dually?)
generated ("This course will generate the following changes in you <student
fills in blank>")  Mind if I steal it for the first day of class?  and
perhaps revisit it on the last day of class?

Wini
wwood@lucy.wellesley.edu
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