HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: siemens@mprgate.mpr.ca (Curtis Siemens)
Subject: Re: worthless comic strips
Reply-To: siemens@mprgate.mpr.ca (Curtis Siemens)
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 17:39:12 GMT

Brett J. Vickers writes:
> That's because no one is trying to teach these things in science
> classes.  Fundamentalist Christians are the only ones trying to
> shove their strange brand of religion into science classrooms.
> That is simply not tolerable.

I'm not here to argue Creation vs Evolution, but I do know that many
Creationists view Evolution as a religion because it is a belief system.
So they view the Evolutionists as "trying to shove their strange brand of
religion into the science classrooms."

A Creationist would argue somewhat like:
  Just because most scientists believe evolution is not a scientific argument
  for why evolution is correct.  When it comes down to really proving evolution,
  it becomes apparent that you can't do it.  Evolutionary theories are built
  upon people interpreting what they see in the fossil records etc, not on
  repeatable experiments, so the bias (belief) of the scientist plays a big
  part on how he/she interprets the data.

From this viewpoint & the Evolutionary viewpoint, can you say philosophically
which is better to teach in schools?  By the way Christians are not trying to
get Creation taught as the "only way to do science", but they are ticked off that
it seems like evolution is the only belief system taught to the exclusion
of Creation.  Many Creationists would like to see both taught and let the
students decide for themselves, but what they see happening in the public
school systems is that evolution is only system that is taught.

I think that some atheists think that atheism is a "neutral system of belief",
but I don't think that any system of belief is "neutral".  There will always
be a set of belief systems, and some of these will opposing each other (like Evolution & Creation), so how can their be a "neutral" belief?  They all have
their biases, all one can hope to do is to find out which system has the best
biases, and whatever system you decide upon, to be tolerant of other people's
belief systems.  I don't think there will every be "neutral belief systems",
but there will be "belief systems that are tolerant of other systems, even
though they might not agree with the other systems".

Curtis
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: esposito@uncg.edu (Andrew Joseph Esposito)
Subject: Re: Dealing with theistic relatives
Organization: chaos mostly
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:26:28 GMT

Why do you care what your relations know about you?  Don't tell them.  If 
they ask tell them you do not like to discuss religion.  If they pry tell 
them whatever, but do not make fun of their religion or offer your opinions 
unless specifically asked.  You may lie, since you do not believe it is a 
sin, to avoid a confrontation, or you may tell them exactly what you think 
and feel.

Be forewarned:  If you tell the truth and you haven't given much thought to 
debating your point of view or if you plan on using the "bible is wrong" or 
the "bible is unaccurate" or any other bible attack, you could be in for a 
converting.  

I've had Mormon, Primative Baptist, Fundamentalist, and Born Again 
Christian (potential) inlaw relatives harrass me about converting to their 
religion.  Depending on the relationships, tensions and whether I'm in a 
confrontational mood or an honest mood, I'll either lie or state plainly 
that I have no religious affiliation.

Hmmmm, the way that is phrased it almost sounds like I'm non-
denominational.  Being vauge might work also.  Another thing I "hide behind" 
is my former religion (my parents religion), Roman Catholisism.  I'm in 
North Carolina, and Catholics are more misunderstood than Quantum Mechanics.

Anyway, my advice is avoid it at all costs.

--
Andrew
--
Andrew Joseph Esposito

esposito@meg.uncg.edu
esposito@uncg.bitnet

--
Disclaimer:  The opinions herein are not necessarily the opions of any
sentient being, including the author.  All rights suspended due to the
election year.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 09:12:41 EDT
From: John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Calling facts "theory"

In article <n0955t@ofa123.fidonet.org>, David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org says:
>
>Tag1: Bill Riggs (riggs@descartes.tec.army.mil (Bill Riggs))
>Tag2: <laa4qsINNftk@news.bbn.com> ingria@BBN.COM writes:
>
[. . .]
>BR> it to the end of the book. At the end of the school year, run
>BR> through thst last chapter and teach evolution as a THEORY, not
>BR>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>BR> proven fact. Then, in the last test, ask a single question...

What's the difference between a "proven fact" and an "unproven fact?"

It seems to me that "proof" occurs only in math and logic, not in
the world of observations.  Haven't "facts" changed over history?
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: LORD, LIAR, OR LUNATIC?
Date: 5 Sep 92 22:18:00 GMT
Followup-To: alt.atheism
Organization: Apple

In article <Bturq8.K44@apollo.hp.com>, perry@apollo.hp.com (Jim Perry)
wrote:
> I would have to say, though, that this position is more an acceptance
> of a cultural stereotype -- century upon century of Jesus being
> portrayed as the perfectly moral man, as well as (in whatever sense)
> God, rather than "the NT portrait" per se.  So I would tend to agree
> that a reading of the gospel accounts leaves one with a very different
> picture than this stereotype. 

I would even question if we could automatically assume that Jesus had 
perfect moral. For instance, what does real Christians assume about
this statement:

MAT 15:22  And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and
cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my
daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

MAT 15:23  But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and
besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

MAT 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep
of the house of Israel.

MAT 15:25  Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

MAT 15:26  But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's
bread, and to cast it to dogs.

MAT 15:27  And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which
fall from their masters' table.

MAT 15:28  Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy
faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole
from that very hour.

A perfect moral would state that Jesus should have helped anyone, including
people from the loathed place of Canaan. However he didn't directly help
her without stating that he should only work with the 'lost sheep
of the house of Israel'. It took some talking from the women's side to
get his attention.

I'm sure that there's another explanation!

Cheers,
Kent
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 21:16:22 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.193139.4493@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>In article <1992Sep12.035348.29757@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>> Would it be immoral of me to teach
>>my children that all people with a last name of "Rescorla" are evil
>>and should be exterminated?
>No.
>
>>  Presumably, you would object if I did
>>this, so if it's the word "immoral" that you object to, perhaps you
>>could provide an alternate rational argument for why I should not teach
>>my kids this.
>
>I don't think you shouldn't. I wouldn't object if you did.
>If I thought they were actually going to try to kill me,
>I would probably take some action to prevent them from doing
>that, but not to prevent you teaching them that.

I might believe that you wouldn't get too worried if it was only I who
was preaching this, but I think it would be awfully shortsighted of
you to sit idly by while I started a movement of Rescorla haters.  By
the time that I had acquired 30 million members and we finally got around
to looking for you, it might be tad late for you to be taking any action.
Did the Jews have any right to criticize the Nazis before they started
getting stuffed into gas chambers?  How much before?  IMO, this planet
will never see peace until we learn to fight bigotry and hatred at its
source, rather than waiting for it to escalate into warfare.

[Two articles rolled into one here]

>>In article <1992Sep11.193841.22336@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>Which part of his claim do you want substantiated?
>>
>>  That telling a gay teenager that s/he is immoral, sinful, sick,
>>  going to hell, etc. destroys the kid's self esteem and often leads
>>  the kid to suicide, or
>This has not been proven, but it seems pretty intuitive, so I'm
>prepared to stipulate it.
>
>>  That it is wrong to teach kids things that destroy their self
>>  esteem and lead them to suicide?
>This part.
>After all, it would seem to me that if one indeed believed
>that homosexuality was sinful and imperilled another's soul,
>he would have a duty to inform him of that, at the very least.

It seems that you have a double standard here.  You think that because
the bigots think their bigotry is moral, it's perfectly ok for them to
preach it to their kids (and everybody else), even if this means the
suicide of the kids.  Yet you are not willing to allow gays to invoke
morality, or anything else, to defend themselves.  Do gays need a holy
book that they can thump before they're allowed to fight back?
--
Doug Graham          Unk, the big trouble with dumb bastards is that they
dgraham@bnr.ca       are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being
My own opinions.     smart.    --Kurt Vonnegut from _The Sirens of Titan_
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.origins
From: sieferme@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Atheist Clubs at universities
Date: 11 Sep 92 16:21:59 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Sep11.104740.7459@cco.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>nancyo@fraser.sfu.ca (Nancy Patricia O'Connor) writes:
>
>>Some friends of mine and I have been considering forming an
>>'Athiest Club' on campus (as Clubs Day draws near), and are
>>looking for some imput from people who either have ideas or
>>experience with this.
>
>>I must add that I was inspired to suggest we start such a group
>>because of the prevalence of Christian groups on campus--it
>>tends to be a bit intimidating.  Paranoia overcomes me when
>>the pressure is on, and I envision a 'Handmaid's Tale'esque
>>future...  And now all this talk of milleniumism.  Eek.
>
>>So, are there any individuals out there who have organised/
>>participated in/ known of such a club on their campuses?
>
>>We would like suggestions as to what the goals of this club  
>>should be, what kinds of activities it should organise, etc.
>
>I've always thought about this.  But then, I don't know what we'd do in such
>a club.  I suppose it could just be like a social club.  Could theists join?
>Unless you talked about religion, or lack thereof, I don't know how this
>would work.  I suppose the religious clubs do some fun things.  An atheists'
>club could also do fun things.  But, the religious groups often get together
>for Bible studies, etc.  Would an atheists' club get together to reinforce
>their lack of belief, or gripe about religion or something?

If you are politically motivated, and religious groups are busy
doing their nefarious deeds at SFU, an Atheist Club could be
useful to counter campus political activity by religo's.  This could
be important if religious groups get special treatment (and funding) 
by the university administration (although I know that the
church/state separation is less rigid in Canada than in the USA).
Political activity can be a bit dangerous; lots of these people
feel that they are inspired by a god to do his bidding, and
can get nasty (and violent) when confronted by well-informed
and persistent atheists.

From a social aspect, many college students get sucked into
campus crusades because they are stressed and lonely.  An
atheist club could offer such students an alternative, saying
that you don't have to give up your brain in order to
get companionship.  Just try not to be as tedious and
pedantic as the opposition.

When I was in college (nostalgia-flag := on;), hanging around
atheists and other freethinkers was just a lot of fun.  We got
endless amusement reviewing the goofier manifestations of 
popular religion:  e.g., TV evangelists, end-of-the-world
cults, Virgin Mary apparitions, bizarre cults, etc.
It sure beat homework.  (nostalgia-flag := off;)

Good luck.

-- 
| Eric Sieferman            |    sieferme@u.washington.edu          |
| U. of W., M.C.I.S.        |    (206) 685-3104                     |
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The End of the World is Nigh!!!
Date: 15 Sep 92 05:12:27 GMT
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.

In article <BuD8nJ.Kos@apollo.hp.com> stave@frost.apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave) writes:
>I heard about this on NPR.  There are two factions, one that believes
>it will be Oct 28 (I think) and another that says Oct 10.  Some of these
>people are dieting so they will be lighter and it will be easier for them
>to rise up to heaven.  I think the person being interviewed said that
>there were only a few thousand people believing this stuff.

Diet long enough and you won't need the world to end :-)

-- 
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
From: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: I visited the ICR in person (4 of 4)
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:31:34 +0930
Organization: University of South Australia

In article <1992Sep1.210341.2551@dscomsf.desy.de>, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker) writes:
> In article <1992Aug31.204837.29425@leland.Stanford.EDU>,
> yergeau@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dan Yergeau) writes:

..

> Pornography from Sumerian times has been discovered. The Arabian Knigts,
> perfumed garden etc etc are all pornographic in the "fundie" sense. Whats wrong
> with bonking though? I think that it would be a damn sight better world if it
> were pornography that children were constantly bombarded with and not the
> violent films glorifying war. Sex is a natural act, killing people in the
> service of the state is not.
Fundies say that mere nudity is pornography. That's what the hiding due to
nakedness in Genesis was all about, wasn't it?
Personally, any culture that can't stand nudity is in seriious need of help.
'High rapes' some claim. Funny - rape wasn't as common in cultures inwhich
nudity was as natural as air. If children grow up thinking it's natural, we
wouldn't have all these problems.
Christians think any enjoyment without their god is sinful. Guilt is quite
powerful, especially when your crap-scared about the consequences for being
even a little bit naughty. (I know I kep saying this, but go see "Abbey and the
Rose", the one wioth Sean Connery). If religious society didn't have this guilt
complex, sex would be open and more enjoyed. For all you Scandinavians out
there, is it true that you and your loved one can make love in public parklands
and have people go "Aw, isn't that lovely"? How does this compute with the
local religion?



Sorry, I just noticed 'Emperors new clothes been mentioned already'

> Phill Hallam-Baker
--
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Electronic Engineering Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au, or try
9051467f@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'  Don Marquis
'Those who believe in an afterlife won't be disappointed'  Me
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Obligatory disclaimer : UniSA hates my opinions...			     |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 19:47:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.183849.11545@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>In article <5344@news.duke.edu> infante@acpub.duke.edu (Andrew  Infante) writes:
>>Eric, I've been following this thread for over a week now, and here's what
>>I've concluded:
>>
>>You don't believe in morality.
>Yes, I have stated that already.
>
>>Ergo, _you_ cannot be one to decide what is right or wrong because it is
>>inherent in morality.
>>
>>Thus, you have no point arguing right or wrong.  period.
>
>On the contrary. The arguments which have been presented for
>the claim that certain actions are immoral are logically flawed.

Look, if you don't believe in morality, then it is sheer stupidity to
claim that it is logically flawed for somebody to say that, eg., murder
is immoral.  There is no logic there to be flawed, and your incessant
babbling about logic makes you look rather idiotic.  It's like me deciding
that I don't believe in the colour blue, and then ranting about how
logically flawed it is for somebody to claim that the sky is blue.  I'd
say your philosophy needs a lot of work.
--
Doug Graham          Unk, the big trouble with dumb bastards is that they
dgraham@bnr.ca       are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being
My own opinions.     smart.    --Kurt Vonnegut from _The Sirens of Titan_
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG)
Subject: Re: Christianic Sacrifices
Originator: cmgrawbu@c00554-1403br.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:50:14 GMT


>>I LOVE IT WHEN CHRISTIANS DIE FOR GOD.
>>
>>Why? 
>>
>>Because I am an atheist and recognize that the most sick evil people on
>>tha planet and in history have been crusaders for jesus.
>>
>>I say let Catholics and Protestants "kneecap" each other in Belfast!
>>I say let the Kurds get slaughterred for their religious views.
>>I saw let the Moslems, Hindus, etc etc etc ALL DIE FOR GOD.
>>
>>God is at the root of most of the wars in history.
>>God loves people killing in his name, AND SO DO I.

Gimme a break. Why can't this group be used for something other 
than trash like this.


Chris
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
From: bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician)
Subject: Re: Pythagorean Reform Church
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 12:15:38 GMT
Organization: Society for the Preservation of E. coli

In article <1992Sep4.224050.21786@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>In article <0kmn#3=@lynx.unm.edu> bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician) writes:
>Of course 4 could also represent male+male marriage and 6 represent
>lesbian marriage :-)

No...even numbers are female; odd numbers, male.  4 would be
representative of lesbian marriage, 6 would be gay male marriage.

>>And while Greek mathematicians were often put off by irrational
>>numbers, they were more put off by inconstructable numbers.  The
>>square root of 2 is irrational, but you can construct it.  Pi on the
>>other hand....

>The reform church will keep the beliefs about irrational numbers,
>they are obviously non physical since they cannot be computed and
>therefore have no place in a math that accurately represents reality
>:-)

Now, now...the Pythagoreans were ones to claim that all is number and
often scoffed at geometry.  Now, if you are going to claim that we
should shun pi because it is incomputable, I tell you to think again.
Pi is emminantly computable...it just takes forever to do it.

F'rinstance...the sum: 1 + 1/3 - 1/5 + 1/7 - 1/9... = pi/4...but you
have to take it out to infinity...and we all know how ancient Greeks
felt about infinity....

-- 
Brian Evans                |     "Bad mood, bad mood...Sure I'm in a bad mood!
bevans@carina.unm.edu      |      I haven't had sex...*EVER!*" -- Virgin Mary
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: bruce@tcom.stc.co.uk (Bruce Munro)
Subject: The End of the World is Nigh!!!
Organization: BNR Europe, New Southgate, London.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 17:32:54 GMT

If anyone wants a good laugh then I suggest popping over to
soc.religion.christian and reading about how the world is going to
end next year (again :-)). Apparently some bible-thumping radio host
called Harold Camping has it all sussed from some biblical verses and
has written a book all about it.  The funny thing is seeing all the
crowd over there taking it deadly seriously. What a bunch of losers!

On a related note, hasn't some Korean church predicted the end of the
world next month? Someone told me a story that the followers of the church
are so convinced of it that they're giving away all their wordly goods
before it happens. They're going to feel pretty bloody stupid in
November, the silly sods!

-- 
Bruce Munro.  <bruce@tcom.stc.co.uk> || ...!mcsun!uknet!stc!bruce
BNR Europe Ltd, Oakleigh Rd South, London N11 1HB. 
Phone : +44 81 945 2174 or +44 81 945 4000 x2174
"There are no strangers, only friends we don't recognise" - Hank Wangford
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Subject: Re: End of the World...
Organization: Cold Spring Harbor Labs
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:25:29 GMT

In article <millernw.716089780@craft.camp.clarkson.edu> millernw@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Neal Miller) writes:
>Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
>
>>We Aussies can beat that. There's a pack of lunatics based in Sydney who
>>are sure the Rapture is coming *next month*. Their publicity is greatly
>>mirthful, and worth reproducing in full:-
>>(I will try to reproduce their idiosyncratic layout and syntax)
>
><material deleted>
>
>>	Reject The 666 of (sic) computer bar code!
>
>	Sorry, but just how the hell are they integrating computer bar codes
>into Revelation?   I *have* to know this one.
>

actually, this is interesting! all bar-codes have 666 in them.
they are unlabeled "control" digits. they occur at the far left
center and far right of the bar-coded digit stream. find a code
that contains a six in it. notice that six is two thin lines.
now find the three sixes, as located above.

either someone is playing "lets freak out the christians"
or it is indeed time to pray.

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: sieferme@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: Nonsense Spreading
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:46:36 GMT

In article <n09aft@ofa123.fidonet.org> David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org writes:
(wonderful but silly article deleted)
> 
>(FROM CHRISTIAN COMPUTING MAGAZINE, SEPT. 1992)
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>  

Is this a real magazine???

What's next:
CHARISMATIC CIVIL ENGINEERING ?
TAROT BRAIN SURGERY ?

Help!

-- 
| Eric Sieferman            |    sieferme@u.washington.edu          |
| U. of W., M.C.I.S.        |    (206) 685-3104                     |

Newsgroups: alt.atheism