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Approved-By:  Bill McGarry <wtm@SHELDEV.SHEL.ISC-BR.COM>
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 17:15:13 EDT
Reply-To:     Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 2561
X-To:         LHCAP <l-hcap@VM1.NODAK.EDU>

                          THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                               Issue # 2561

                           Tuesday, April 07, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******


                           Re: Scientific American
                          Re: phantom pain research
                      My Daughter and Special Olympics
                    Re: My Daughter and Special Olympics
                               Blind athletes
                       Birmingham Pain Clinic Visit #4
                               Drug companies
                           Re: Herbal vs Chemical
                                    Pain
                              Re: Chronic pain


                                ******


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                              (203) 337-1518



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Subject: Re: Scientific American
From: Christopher.Baker@f14.n374.z1.fidonet.org (Christopher Baker)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:374/14 - Rights On!, Titusville FL


[This is from the Amputee Conference]

> disapointed in it. The article was written by a psychologist. He feels
> that phantom pain is all in the brain. I am not really sure that
> I agree with what he had to say, but I do know that this is an area that
> needs much more research, and I wonder if the research needs to come from
> the area of psychology. I guess the one thing that really turned me off

where else would pain of any kind be? perhaps you should read it
again disregarding that a 'psychologist' wrote it? the theory for
the origin of these disembodied sensations makes a lot of sense to
me. the author called for more research and has done a lot of
original work himself. since there is not much going on that field,
who else should he quote?

> about the article, was his list of resources, they were all articles
> that the same author had written. I do not feel the author talks from
> experience. I would be most suprised if he or the assistants he mentions
> in the artcle were amputees.

you don't have to jump off a skyscraper to correctly postulate that
the sudden stop is going to kill you. he documents his empirical
evidence from amputee, spinal injury, and congenital limb-missing
cases. were you upset that he offered no cure for a condition
hardly understood?

> If you get a chance you should read the article, from a historical
> standpoint it does offer some interesting points.

IMHO, the article is a breakthrough in cognitive process. i can't
but wonder why you've attacked it? i suggest the rest of this
audience read it for themselves and disregard your negative review
until they have done so. [grin]

TTFN.
Chris

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!374!14!Christopher.Baker
Internet: Christopher.Baker@f14.n374.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: phantom pain research
From: Christopher.Baker@f14.n374.z1.fidonet.org (Christopher Baker)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:374/14 - Rights On!, Titusville FL


[This is from the Amputee Conference]

> amputees feel that physical environment has a greater effect
> on phantom pain than do mental attitudes.

as a 17 year veteran, i disagree. do have enough tenure for you? [grin]

TTFN.
Chris

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!374!14!Christopher.Baker
Internet: Christopher.Baker@f14.n374.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: My Daughter and Special Olympics
From: Rick.Hart@p0.f5109.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Rick Hart)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/5109.0 - National Amputee Co, Dallas TX


[This is from the Amputee Conference]

I have a beautiful daughter named Jessica who is 8 and has cerebal
palsy.  She is in a power chair almost all day and other than various
therapy sessions, she does not get a whole lot of exercise.

I have been monitoring your messages on various competions and wonder
what age Jessica could or should get involved.  An how would I go
about getting her started?  We live in Dallas, Tx.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick Hart

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!124!5109.0!Rick.Hart
Internet: Rick.Hart@p0.f5109.n124.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: My Daughter and Special Olympics
From: Robert.Thurlow@f5109.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Robert Thurlow)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/5109 - National Amputee Co, Dallas TX


[This is from the Abled Athlete Conference]

#>I have a beautiful daughter named Jessica who is 8 and has cerebal
#>palsy.  She is in a power chair almost all day and other than
#>various therapy sessions, she does not get a whole lot of exercise.

#>I have been monitoring your messages on various competions and
#>wonder what age Jessica could or should get involved.  An how
#>would I go about getting her started?  We live in Dallas, Tx.

I can give you my best Dallas reference - there is a disabled sports
association right here in Dallas.  I almost volunteered with them
rather than with the North Texas Amputee Supprot Group when I got
down here, but the NTASG got lucky :-)  Here's their vitals:

Disabled Sports Association of North Texas
3810 West Northwest Highway, Suite 205
Dallas, TX  75220
Phone (214) 352-4100

I don't know what programs they run for younger kids, exactly, but
I'm sure they'd be happy to hook you up with a coach or two.  I hope
this works out for Jessica - say hi for me!

Rob T

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!124!5109!Robert.Thurlow
Internet: Robert.Thurlow@f5109.n124.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Blind athletes
From: Neil.Ohlenkamp@f24.n3602.z1.fidonet.org (Neil Ohlenkamp)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3602/24 - ADAnet One (tm) Net, Pinson AL


[This is from the Abled Athlete Conference]

The United States Association for Disabled Athletes (USABA) has a
national office in Colorado Springs.  The Address is 33 North Institute,
Colorado Springs, CO 80903.  The phone number is (719) 630-0422.  The
Executive Director is Roger Nepple.  I can also relay information
through this BBS if you would like.

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3602!24!Neil.Ohlenkamp
Internet: Neil.Ohlenkamp@f24.n3602.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Birmingham Pain Clinic Visit #4
From: Alan.Hess@f1000.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Alan Hess)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:261/1000 - Nerve Center, Pikesville MD


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

In a missive of <Mar 25 21:02> Linda Cummings (1:375/34@FidoNet)
writes to All:

 LC> Chronic pain people who are taking narcotics are in danger of becoming
 LC> addicted.  They (the pain clinic) try to get you off medication by the
 LC> time the course is completed.  The body will produce more and more
 LC> pain to get more and more narcotics until the person winds up in
 LC> de-tox.  He intends to teach us different ways to decrease the pain
 LC> (hopefully) so we won't have to rely on narcotics.  Sometimes the
 LC> doctors will give their patients methadone along with the pain
 LC> medication instead of a stronger medication because of the addition
 LC> possibility.

A.  The above re chronic pain people and addiction is bullcaca.
Studies prove people will use only enough medication to control
their pain, and won't go for a high.  B.  Methadone is addictive.
*adh*

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1000!Alan.Hess
Internet: Alan.Hess@f1000.n261.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Drug companies
From: Linda.Cummings@f34.n375.z1.fidonet.org (Linda Cummings)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:375/34 - Batteries Included , Montgomery AL


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

In a message to Arthur Saus:

 >  Drug companies not only recoup what they lay out but sell at a
 >  considerable markup. Labor is done dirt cheap in places such as
 >  Puerto Rico where all kinds of taxes can be avoided. This is currently
 > being investigated.

I sure wish somebody would find a way where we patients don't have
to get charged the high prices for their experiments for the rest
of our lives, though.  Sheez, Flexaril yesterday for 90 tablets
cost me almost $50.00!  Since it's working with the spasms and
cramps, though, I gotta take it.

Linda

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!375!34!Linda.Cummings
Internet: Linda.Cummings@f34.n375.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Herbal vs Chemical
From: Arthur.Saus@p160.f72.n376.z1.fidonet.org (Arthur Saus)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:376/72.160 - Windows of the Worl, Columbia SC


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

> AS>This is overly simplistic and not at all true.  Let's face it, almost
> AS>all
> AS>drugs (or the chemicals in the herbs) function by poisoning a highly
> AS>specific
> AS>biochemical system in the body, to bring it back into balance.

> I don't agree. Can you supply your source of info?

Certainly, Physiology, Pharmacology, and Biochemistry courses I
took in college, graduate school, and Medical School to obtain my
M.D. degree.  Sorry you don't agree, but that's the facts as
understood by medical scientists who have devoted years to studying
these issues.

> AS>Administration of an antibiotic doesn't stop the body from
> AS>manufacturing
> AS>other chemicals (ie its own natural form) to help fight the infection.

> It may not occur with antibiotics, but with the use of pain killers it
> does.  Studies on the formation of endorphins have shown the lower levels
> in the presence of pain killers.  England has done a good deal of studies
> concerning drug addiction and this was found to be true with amphetamine
> abuse also.  The bodies natural levels were dampened, so the need for
> more of the drug was created, which in turn decreases the bodies natural
> levels even more, etc.

A discussion of mechanisms of regulation of endorphins in relation
to exogenous opiate administration is an entirely different subject
than a discussion about antibiotic administration.  Steroid
medications also have this "feedback regulation" effect on the body
just as opioid medications do, but this is not true for
antibiotics.

> AS>I wasn't "knocking herbals" as much as I was merely
> trying to point out the
> AS>truth about them.  Herbs do contain chemicals in varying
> amounts that
> AS>interact with various biochemical pathways.  Some of
> these interactions may
> AS>be beneficial and some may be harmful.  Within any given
> herb, the chemicals

> As is true with chemically synthesized drugs, only the
> reaction are often more violent than with herbals.

"violent" is a poor choice of wording unless you are trying to
arouse emotion in your reader (which I suspect may be your
intent).  I would agree that the action (note I said action, not
reaction) is more specific with a purified drug, than with herbal
preparations.

> AS>variety of biochemical pathways in the body.
> Furthermore, the concentreation
> AS>of even a beneficial chemical in a herb may vary
> tremendously from one
> AS>particular plant to the next, or from one lot to the
> next. If you accept the

> You are obviously not aware of the ability to utilize bioengineering to
> clone plants and maintain a very pure and consistent viable strain. This
> has been done commercially for over twenty years.

I'm probably much more aware of bioengineering than you may have
realized, but you cannot obtain the purity and consistancy from
plant to plant that you can from one batch of a purified drug to
the next.

> AS>pharmaceutical companies were then able to isolate and
> purify this chemical,

> It is that chemical purity that is often the problem. There have been
> instances of side effects (not apparent in the herbal form) that have to
> be compensated for with more drugs. (Here's one pill for your problem and
> three to take care of the problems that it will cause.)

You're suggesting that there are no side effects with herbal
preparations??!! Come on!!  You know this is not true unless the
dose of active ingredient is too small to have any effect on the
body!!

> AS>This is what you cannot do with herbals. They are not
> able to provide the
> AS>necessary chemical or "active ingredient" in an isolated
> and carefully
> AS>measured form.  This is one of the main problems with
> herbals that the use of
> AS>drugs overcomes.

> You fail to understand the main idea of herbal medicine. You want to
> use the lowest dosage possible to assist the body in healing itself.

This is not different than the main idea of prescribing
conventional medications.  All drugs should be used in the lowest
dose needed to get the job done.

> Too often, Western medicine thinks that to blast away with megadoses is
> the best way.

This may be your impression, but I would challenge you to support
that argument with any medical literature.  Medical students are
never taught that "to blast away with megadoses is the best way".
Your statement is just plainly not true. Instead, physicians are
taught how to select the proper drug for the patients particular
problem, and one in which the side effects are minimal or may be
used to the patient's advantage when possible. This basic
philosophy of using the lowest dose possible to accomplish the job
is not different from the philosophy of dosing you suggest for
herbal medicine.

> How many of those chemicals cause damage to the liver,
> the kidneys, or damage the stomach? How often does the antibiotics kill
> off the natural flora in the body causing severe diarrhea and sores in the
> mouth?  All too often.

Yes, and how often are the drugs used PRECISELY in the way that the
doctor has prescribed them, so that adverse side effects can be
avoided?  Sadly, all too rarely.  Fortunately, most drugs can be
somewhat abused by the patient by not specifically following the
doctor's advice, and still do minimum harm, even though they have
powerful effects on the body.

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!376!72.160!Arthur.Saus
Internet: Arthur.Saus@p160.f72.n376.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Pain
From: Arthur.Saus@p160.f72.n376.z1.fidonet.org (Arthur Saus)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:376/72.160 - Windows of the Worl, Columbia SC


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

> I agree with you, Arthur.  However, in my case, although
> "they" really can't pinpoint the cause of my chronic pain,
> they have guesses...scar tissue rates right up there on the
> list, followed by "possible" pressure from a disk, the newly
> diagnosed sacroiliac joint dysfunction and coccyx pain, etc.
> I mean, isn't there always "something" causing the pain?  If
> not, then why is the pain there?  (Just food for thought,
> although I'd love it if somebody had an answer.)

I guess the answer is yes and no... although "something" is causing
pain, that "something" is not necessarily located at the part of
the body where pain is experienced, although it usually is.  This
gets back to the definition of acute recurring pain vs. chronic
pain I used in my prior message to you.  If there is something that
can be demonstrated to be present somewhere in the body that is a
continuing source of irritation, this can be considered to be an
acute recurrant pain rather than a chronic pain, regardless of the
length of time it has been present.

Sometimes, there is an injury to some part of the body that is the
original source of the pain, but a chronic pain problem continues
even long after that body part has completely healed. This is the
pain for which we do not have a good explanation... currently, our
best understanding is that for some unknown reason, some part of
the brain defies the normal control mechanisms and "goes
freelance", generating a message that pain exists in a particular
part of the body that is not actually diseased at that time. This
is chronic pain, and since it exists only within the brain itself,
it is extremely difficult to treat while causing devistating pain
problems for the patient.

I'm not sure if this is really an answer to your question of why
the pain is there, but just our best understanding presently.

Pain is a real problem because it is a subjective experience, not
something that can easily be measured objectively. An explanation I
used to use with students was to compare it to beauty. We can
describe how an object (such as a flower) is shaped, it's color,
and it's texture. We can tell you how the light is reflected off
that object, how it enters the eye and is focused on the retina, as
well as the neurological pathways by which that image travels from
the eye to the brain and the paths within the brain where that
information is sent, but we can't tell you how it becomes
beautiful.  That is your subjective determination since "beauty is
in the eye of the beholder".  Your appreciation of pain is much the
same way as your appreciation of beauty.  We can tell you how a
specific stimulus causes certain local chemical changes and how
these changes affect nerves to encode a noxious stimulus that is
transmitted to the central nervous system.  We can tell you the
pathways these stimuli travel through the peripheral nervous
system, into the spinal cord, then into the brain, and the paths
within the brain where these messages are distributed, but we can't
tell you how it becomes painful for you.  The exact same stimulus
applied to someone else may not be appreciated as painful due to
the subjective nature of pain.

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!376!72.160!Arthur.Saus
Internet: Arthur.Saus@p160.f72.n376.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Chronic pain
From: Arthur.Saus@p160.f72.n376.z1.fidonet.org (Arthur Saus)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:376/72.160 - Windows of the Worl, Columbia SC


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

> I was just wondering is the help and relief from Tens really there
> or only in the mind

This is something that has also been debated by medical
professionals who deal with pain problems.  There are strong
arguments that a TENS unit provides nothing more than placebo
therapy, and there are equally as strong arguments that it blocks
(or at least modifies) the ability of nerves to send pain messages
to the brain.

Based on the research of Dr's. Melzack and Wall, a "gate control"
mechanism exists in nerves.  The ability of nerves to transmit a
message can be modified or blocked by controlling this "gate".
This certainly provides the theoretical background upon which TENS
therapy is based.  Additionally, there is the practical experience
that use of a TENS unit seems to help pain problems for many
people, but it does not work for all people or all pain problems.

With this in mind, if it works for you, then TENS is an effective
therapy.

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!376!72.160!Arthur.Saus
Internet: Arthur.Saus@p160.f72.n376.z1.fidonet.org




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                                ******

             End of Issue # 2561 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
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