From: khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Date: 22 Jan 1993 13:18:35 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
NNTP-Posting-Host: boa.cis.ohio-state.edu

In article <FAIGIN.93Jan19184143@solarium.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>On 19 Jan 1993 19:20:22 -0500, khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
>said: 
>> I never said you should be a Torah expert, but to claim something about
>> a religion you should at least investigate the issue very closely. 
>
>I suggest you follow *your* words. You have continually demeaned Reform, yet
>have illustrated that you really don't understand what the movement really is.
>Before you continue to make your claims about Reform, you should investigate
>closely. I can send you a reading list if you wish.

Did I ever say that I know everyting about Reform movement? No. But what
I did ask you is to give me your laws. So, you did give me some of your
laws and I argued them and said that they were wrong. You did not really
proved them wrong, but just kept saying that it is the Reform point of
view. That explaination is not enough for me. I respect your right to
choose, but I never said that I do or will respect your choice. It is my
right not to respect your choice and I also wanted to have explainations
for your laws. So, I did. But unfortunatelly, I don't see the reasonning
behind those. I see the issues pointed out, but not the explanations why
you solved them this or that way. Torah says this, but again you dn't
believe it makes you closer to G-d and so on. Those are emotions, but
where is the reasonning?


>
>> You claimed that Judaism is sexist, so, I asked you
>> how many times a week do you learn Torah, because only a person that
>> studies Torah on a regular bases can make this kind of statement. 
>
>According to my wife, who had Orthodox teachers, a female raised in an
>Orthodox home has no opportunity to study Torah, because no male teacher will
>teach her Torah. My wife should know -- she was thrown out of 3 Torah classes
>at Hebrew High School just because she was female!

That remains to be proven! If a person really wants to learn Torah, she
can. For example our shuls offers free classes every Tues. for
everybody, not only for men. Another thing is when there is a study
group that is only for men. That study group probably would not like it
if women came to that class.



>
>Actually, my wife says, since most Orthodox women are running the household,
>raising the kids, and running the business, while their husbands sit on their
>rear ends all day (her words) learning Torah, Orthodox women have no time,
>strength, or energy to study Torah even if they had the opportunity, which
>they don't.

Here we go again. All Orthodox men are lazy and don't do anything in
their own home. Excuse me, which one of us has a stereotype here? Your
wife had Orthodox teachers? Wow. Did not you just say that it is
impossible for a woman to study in Orthodoxy? Oh, well, maybe you did
not. Did your wife ever lieved in an Orthodox home for at least a month?
What are we talking about here? Personal experiences or laws?


>
>> If you do study Torah like a man should then it would be another issue,
>> since we could argue based on Torah, not on personal experience or emotions.
>
>Ah, but women aren't allowed to study Torah like a man.
>

No, that is not true! More exact statement would be that women are not
allowed to study Torah like men do. A woman should study Torah, but not
just for the sake of Torah, like men do, but to know how to practice her
own religion. So, in other words, a woman should study only those part
of Torah that are relevant to the mitzvot she is commanded to keep. So,
that is not really studing Torah now, but it is connected to the mitzva
that she is studying about. 
So, when you say that it is sexist for a woman not to be allowed to
study Torah, first of all it is not true, and second of all if you think
that it is then study it like a man. But what is the result of it all? 1
out of 1000 women really study it like a man and all others just pretend
or don't study it at all. 
In your last post you said that this argument is not going anywhere and
you were right. It is not. If you want to continue, I suggest that we
stop making examples of life experiences that we had and turn to
argument based on Torah. Can yo do that? I will be more then happy to
stop these useless conversation of one side acusing another and inverse
way. Let's have a Torh based argument. (?)

>> I am not tyring to say that you are a bad person, but I am just
>> saying if you chose to criticize then you have to prove it. 
>
>(Daniel speaking again). Dmitry, this is just how I feel about you and your
>attitude. If you choose to criticize, you have to learn of what you speak.
>

What I talked about I learned from you. 

>> But this is really
>> interesting. So, you think that just because you attended Orthodox shul
>> you can say that you have experienced Orthodoxy? Or what ARE you saying?
>
>(Karen speaking again. It's fun typing with your wife looking over your
>shoulder :-))
>
>Dmitry, she is simply speaking from her experience being raised Orthodox, and
>being a second class citizen in shul while the rest of the world was telling
>her that she wasn't a second class citizen just because she was female.
>

Why is it that you look at it like women are separeted from men? How
about poor men separated from women? This is not a question to answer,
but just to show you that in this case you can go two ways.

>> What made you think that Orthodox are sexist? Did the men in that shuls made
>> inappropriate comments?
>
>(Daniel again). Dmitry, you don't know what sexism is, and how it differs from
>sexual harrassment. Inappropriate comments are not sexism -- they're sexual
>harrassment. Sexism is akin to racism -- remember the Jim Crow laws in the
>south. Sexism is treating women differently solely because of their sex.
>Making them sit in a separate area. Giving them different responsibilities.
>Denying them certain opportunties available to men (the rabbinate, being a
>witness, initiating a get, saying wedding vows, etc.). That's sexism.
>Orthodoxy is sexist by definition.

Did somebody deny a job for your wife? Because other issues remain to be
argued. 

>
>> In fact, I am trying to prove that Reformism and Conservatism
>> leads to dropping out and other people argue with me on this issue.
>
>They argue with you because you are wrong. 

The same reason I am arguing with them.

Statistics have shown in the US
>that Reform and Conservative are *growing* in comparison with Orthodoxy,
>although Judaism as a whole is shrinking.
>

Does not this just say everything? R. and Con. are up, Judaism is down.
Although, this is probably true, this certainly does not show the
Roformism and Conservatism are doing the right thing.


>Daniel and Karen
>
>--
>[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
>[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
>		    "And as they say, the rest is compost"


Good Shabboth,
Dima
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
  khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
  khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish