HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye
Date: 23 Dec 92 07:52:19 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

wpwood@queball.austin.ibm.com (Bill Woodward) writes:

> 2)  Lucifer's Hammer - Big rock falls on the Earth.  Film at 11.
> 3)  Footfall - Alien invasion.  Was very well done, but seemed to have
> 	       a lot of the same characters as #2 above.

Interesting you should mention that . . . in _N-Space_ (or was it 
_Playgrounds of the Mind_?) Niven points out that _Lucifer's Hammer_ came 
about when they were invited to write an alien invasion novel.  They 
designed how the aliens would first invade -- by dropping an asteroid -- 
and then went into that.  The editor (whose name escapes me -- I can 
research this if anyone's really interested) who suggested it to them 
changed his mind, and said, "Forget the alien invasion -- just go with 
the asteroid impact!"  Thus begat _Lucifer's Hammer_.  Niven and 
Pournelle still liked the idea of the alien invasion, so implemented it 
in _Footfall_, which I still think was a very good novel.
> 4)  Oath of Fealty - This was kind of an odd one.  I didn't like it at
> 		     first, but I read it a few more times and it got better
> 		     each time.
> 5)  Inferno - The story of a science fiction author who dies and travels
> 	      through Dante's Hell with a surprise guest.  Wonderful !!!
> 6)  Legacy of Heorot - Another that I had to read a few times to enjoy, but
> 		       great the second time around.  Written with Steven
> 		       Barnes.
> 7)  Fallen Angels (?) - With Michael Flynn.  Never read it.
> 
>    I find that I like Niven's short stories *a lot*.  However, his solo
> novels, IMNSHO, leave a bit to be desired.  It's seems that he will stretch
> a story that really could be told in a good short story into 350 loooong
> drawn-out pages.  The only novel he wrote that I really enjoyed (and I
> *know* I'll catch hell for this) is _Protector_.
>    OTOH, grab a copy of the book _A_Step_Farther_Out_ by Pournelle.  It's 
> a collection of science-fact essays, and although a lot of people may not
> agree with some of the ideas therein, it's got a lot of neat stuff in it.
> --
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> Bill Woodward         |   I am the terror that flaps in the night.
> AIX Development       |                              - Darkwing Duck
> 512-838-4107          |   Mi estas la teruro kiu nokte batas.
> billw@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com                          - Malhelflugilo Anaso



  ____  Erik Max Francis -- ..!apple!uuwest!max -- max@west.darkside.com   __
  \  /  1070 Oakmont Dr. #1  San Jose, CA  95117  37 20 N 121 53 W  ACGT  /  \
   \/   Like strategic interstellar conquest games?  Ask about UNIVERSE!  \__/
        Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt.   All things that are, are lights.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: weiner@bnlls1.nsls.bnl.gov (Gary Weiner)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:53:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.125910.13054@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.000017.29100@bnlux1.bnl.gov> weiner@bnlls1.nsls.bnl.gov (Gary Weiner) writes:





>>Socrates? He's a DWEM, Plato and Aristotle too. Shakespeare? Milton?
>>Marlowe? Blake? No way man, they're DWEM. Washington? Jefferson? 
>>Lincoln? Hey, those are DWEMs also.
>>
>>The truth is, most of the people you want to know about to learn about
>>the devolopment of our culture, values and literature are DWEMs. That's
>>just the way it is. Before the 20th century, if you weren't a DWEM, you
>>had very little say or import (Of course, exceptions do abound, but you
>>get my point).
>
>But don't you see that this is tautological?  If all you are taught is
>that the best and brightest are DWMs of European decent then you get a
>skewed view of the world...

I'm not saying the best and brightest are all DWEMs, certainly I could
name a bunch of brilliant non-DWEM achievers thoughout history. I won't
argue Confucius vs Socrates or Shaka Zulu vs Alexander. My point is
that the history of the United States is, pretty  much, the history of
Europe and if we want to know where we come from: Intelectually, 
Morally and otherwise, it is the DWEMs (for the most part) that we must
look to.  

> ...Our culture (meaning the culture of the US
>and even Western Europe) is made up of lots of different parts.
>Especially here in America, our culture IS multicultural (despite what
>many republicans would have you believe, this is NOT a Christian
>Country!).  Travel through any city and you will see influences from all
>over the world.

Perhaps, but most of those influences are European.  The USA is, by and
large, a mix of European cultures.  The non-Euro cultures are here, but
their influence on the US culture and mind is minimal.

And, the fact is, we are a Christian Country, and I say this as Jew who
can see these things pretty clearly.

>
>The fact of the matter is there is a great deal to be learned from non
>DWMs.

Certainly...

>>
>>The thing is, if you want a more diverse cannon (and this is a good thing
>>IMHO) then don't say "We Need More Black/Red/Blue/Yellow/Women/Homosexual
>>/etc authors in our cannon" say "We should have this book in our cannon
>>because it deserves to be there"
>
>Yes and no.  Many of the arguments for inclusion ARE based upon some form
>of merit or deservedness.  BUT, we, as literati should PUSH the non-DWM
>or even non-WM for inclusion FIRST, because they have been left out so
>long.  Kind of a literary affirmative-action if you will.

It has been my observation that this kind of literary affimative action
tends to push merit to the back burner in order to get "X% of our core
must be from Y minority"




Gary J. Weiner  | Brookhaven National Laboratories  | "The killer awoke 
PO BOX 715      | National Synchrotron Light Source |  before dawn...
Upton,NY 11973  |    weiner@bnlls1.nsls.bnl.gov     |  he put his boots on..."
From: rhine@gdc.com (Helen Rhine)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Jack the Bodiless available
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:52:37 GMT
Organization: General DataComm Ind. Inc., Middlebury, CT 06762


 I saw it yesterday on the new books shelf in the local (teeny) library.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16726 rec.arts.books:23409
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 29 Dec 92 06:57:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin):
>Who's to say that their scales of "literary merit" have aught to do with 
>what ought be?  And for that matter, can any of you poxwit pundits give me 
>a definition of "literary merit" that isn't circular?

Nice play on 'ought', but the 'poxwit' alliteration was a bit weak.
The problem with paying less attention to what you're saying than
to how you're saying it is that you're reintroducing the ambiguities
that burnt so much time last time this topic went by, not long ago.

Few claim that the 'canon' is best-ten or best-twenty or best-thousand
list of literary works.  The canon is the reading list from which we
draw to achieve our educational objectives.  There's some debate over
which books are most efficacious, but the main source of the screaming
is a disagreement over what the objectives should be.  Candidates include:

Expose students to the works that shaped our culture.
Expose students to good literary craftsmanship.
Expose students to the most worthwhile/enjoyable/inspiring/younameit books.
Expose students to a broad range of cultures and subcultures.
Expose students to books dealing with their personal conflicts and concerns.
Expose students to positive role models.
Expose students to the works others will expect them to have read.
Expose students to the works which enjoy/enjoyed the highest prestige.
Expose students to books which reinforce our cultural norms.
Expose students to books which challenge our cultural norms.
Expose students to a broad range of literary styles.

I could go on for a while.  Are we trying to teach good English? the
history of ideas? self-respect?  One of my professors used to complain
that Classical studies were historically saddled with the function of
civilizing students -- and when they were dropped from the general
curriculum, the job was dumped on the English department.  

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

      And there is more to it than this, for dancing is practised to 
reveal whether lovers are in good health and sound of limb, and
after which they are permitted to kiss their mistresses in order that 
they may touch and savour one another, thus to ascertain if they
are shapely or emit an unpleasant odour as of bad meat.  Therefore,
from this standpoint, quite apart from the many other advantages to
be derived from dancing, it becomes an essential in a well-ordered
society. -- Thoinot Arbeau (1588)
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rcj@engin.umich.edu (R o d Johnson)
Subject: Re: Attanasio (was Re: Auto-buy lists)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 12:35:18 EST
Organization: Lost Tribes of Gazebo
Keywords: tigana

In article <1992Dec22.013648.28664@eff.org> write@eff.org (Glen Cox) writes:
>Alan Carter lists his "auto-buys":

>>A A Attanasio     (I forgive him for Wyvern.)

>Funny.  I think WYVERN is Attanasio's best book.

I like it too.  It stumbles somewhat in the second half, when it turns
into a pretty generic sea adventure book, but the first section (the
Borneo part) is *superb*.  And as a whole, it's the first time
Attanasio really gets a grip on how to write a novel (as opposed to
simply filling pages with fantastic ideas).  Don't flame me, I like
all the earlier books a lot, but I think he matured quite a bit with
Wyvern; parts of Radix, for instance, read like an SF version of
Herman Hesse (not a compliment).

-- 
       Rod Johnson  *  rcj@caen.engin.umich.edu  *  (313) 764-3103
    
                "What I do doesn't happen in a warehouse"
                                          --Jim Dickinson
From: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein
Date: 26 Dec 1992 22:44:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu () says:

>In article <1992Dec18.200257.857@pages.com> bwebster@pages.com writes:
>>
>She was his second wife, let's not forget.  The first wife's name was
>Leslyn, and Heinlein  divorced her and married Virginia shortly after
>World War Two.
>
>	(There's an anecdote in the appropriate volume of Asimov's
>	autobiography: it's just after the war, Heinlein and Asimov
>	are no longer working together at the Naval Yard, and the
>	Asimovs get a friendly, nothing-in-particular letter from
>	Heinlein.  Gertrude: "I see Bob and Leslyn are having trouble."
>	Isaac: "Whatever do you mean?  Why, he doesn't even _mention_
>	Leslyn."  Gertrude:  "That's right; he doesn't even mention
>	her.")
>
>The ironic thing is, she seems to have been much the same kind of person
>as Virginia!  You can read a portrait of her in Anthony Boucher's
>_Rocket to the Morgue,_ written just before WW2.  Look for "Anson Carter"
>and his wife "Bernice."  She's cool, intelligent, competent, and a
>writer herself.
>
>	(Bernice: "How much sex will Don [=JWCJr.] stand for in a
>	story?"  Anson: "In a word, none.  Why?"  Bernice:  "Oh, no
>	matter; I can proceed without it.  Only it's an interplanetary
>	romance, and I was just wondering about the physiological
>	aspects....")

I may well be wrong, but as I understood it, Mr. Heinlein's first wife was
an alcoholic, which was why he divorced her.  (Vague memories of it being
mentioned in passing in Locus' Heinlein memorials)  As for why she was a
lot like Virginia H., well, one would expect Heinlein's taste in women
(strong, competent, intelligent) to stay fairly consistent.
-- 
It is caffeine alone that sets my mind in motion.  It is through beans of
java that thoughts acquire speed, that hands acquire shakes, that shakes
become a warning...I am...IN CONTROL...OF MY ADDICTION!
---From the Minicon Graffiti Wall, 1989(?)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: dstein@charon.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Reply-To: dstein@charon.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Organization: UCLA, Mathematics Department
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 06:04:44 GMT

Barbara Hlavin writes:

|> I love Calvin and Hobbes.  I also get a secret kick out of Robert 
|> Fulgum. I just don't think this is the sort of thing one should 
|> pay tuition to be encouraged to read (response to "let them read 
|> whatever the hell they feel like"). 

   I just felt bad for both Calvin and Hobbes in the company you
   placed them in, but now I understand you did it with a loving 
   touch, so it's OK ...

 - David

p.s. Oh, and let me note I'm more sceptical then you seem to be.
     
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metamathician) - ===
From: wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Chester)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 31 Dec 92 19:56:25 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <C0382v.EMJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> cstringe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Chuck Stringer) writes:
]drg@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez) writes:
]| >How can Huckleberry Finn possibly be non-PC or anti-PC? It was,
]| >and is, one of the most strongly anti-racist books in American
]| >literature. I would think Huck Finn would be the one part of the
]| >canon the PC types were happiest with.
]| 
]| Irrelevant to the Politically Correct. The book contains the word "nigger",
]| therefore it is evil - never mind what the words surrounding it say.
]
]Apparently you haven't understood the words surrounding it if
]you actually believe that Clemens was advocating racism. Read Pap's
]'You call that a gov'mint?' speech again. You've missed the entire
]point of the work.
]

I think he's being sarcastic, Chuck. Also, doesn't the introduction state that
the purpose of the dialogue is to accurately imitate the way people spoke
in the 1820`s and 30's (in Missouri). Read the very first part of the book
and it will say something to that effect. 


-- 
Patrick Chester            |----------------------------------------------------
wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu |"The earth is too fragile a basket in which to keep
Politically Incorrect      |  all your eggs." Robert A. Heinlein
Future Lunar Colonist      |"The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are 
#^%$!! Militarist          |  going to the stars." Robert A. Heinlein
(Of the Sun Tzu mentality) |----------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rcharbon@athena.mit.edu (Ray Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Auto-buy lists
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:30:31 GMT

currently:

John Varley
Niven & Pournelle
Iain Banks
Dan Simmons
Norman Spinrad
Wild Cards (total disclosure here)
Joe Haldeman

creeping off the list:
Spider Robonson
Larry Niven

unfortunately dead:
RAH
PK Dick (SF only!)

-- 
Ray Charbonneau              | The fifth dentist makes all the money.
rcharbon@athena.mit.edu      |             -- me
MIT and the Library Systems Office are glad that I'm posting my opinions
here so that they don't have to listen to them anymore.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: tsdavies@rodan.syr.EDU (T.S. Davies)
Subject: Re: Anarchy in S.F.
Reply-To: T.S. Davies <tsdavies@mailbox.syr.edu>
In-reply-to: rjk@world.std.com's message of Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:25:32 GMT
Organization: Sam Hill Cabal, DS
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 21:46:47 EST


RJK> = Robert J. Kolker <rjk@world.std.com>

RJK> I can think of two SF novels that have anarchy or anarchic
RJK> societies as a theme and context. They are:

RJK>    THE DISPOSSESSED by U.LaGuin
RJK>    INHERIT THE STARS by Hogan


Three more that no-one has mentioned:

   Charles Platt  _Free Zone_  New York: Avon, 1989.

     An anarchic enclave in post-collapse Los Angeles, run by a biker
     and a hacker, with funding from the Mafia.  Various silly
     subplots, including intelligent dogs, invading aliens,
     time-traveling robots, and government plots.


   Larry Niven    "Cloak of Anarchy" in _Tales of Known Space: The
		  Universe of Larry Niven_  New York: Ballantine, 1975.
		  Pp. 111-133.  [Originally appeared in the March, 1972,
		  issue of _Analog_.]

     Niven apparently has a rather negative view of human nature, and
     in this story, he demonstrates how people turn nasty with no
     threats to keep their behavior in line in an "Anarchy Park".


   Pat Cadigan    _Mindplayers_  New York: Bantam-Spectra, 1987.  
		  Pp. 255-266.  [Originally appeared in _Omni_ as
		  "Lunatic Bridge".]

     Cadigan's version of the anarchy park is a bit lighter than
     Niven's.  One forms the background of the climax of this story,
     dealing with two composers who have worked together for their
     entire careers, then split, and who are attempting, with little
     success, to work independently.

Hope this helps!

--
I'm enthralled by combine harvesters. In fact, I yearn to have one -- as a pet.
	From _The Day of the Jackal_
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    T.S. Davies		tsdavies@mailbox.syr.edu		SHC, DS
From: wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Chester)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Autobuy lists
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:36:42 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

My list (in the remote chance that anyone's interested :)


Larry Niven
Joe Weber
Diane Duane (ST-novels)
Peter David (comics too, read X-Factor, Incredible Hulk and Spiderman:2099)
Chris Claremont (where's the sequel to _Grounded_, Chris?  :)

Other ones I usually read the back cover first :)




-- 
Patrick Chester           |---------------------------------------------------| 
wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|"The earth is too fragile a basket in which to keep|
Politically Incorrect     |  all your eggs." Robert A. Heinlein               |
Future Lunar Colonist     |"The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are |
claypigeon                |  going to the stars." Robert A. Heinlein          |
Many other stupid titles  |---------------------------------------------------|
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: My last reply.
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 21:39:12 GMT

mlabossi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael C LaBossiere):
>The great works of humanity will have value as long as humanity exists. True 
>art is timeless. For example, the Mona Lisa, the Pyramids, the Meso-American
>works, the great wall of China and other forms of art will be inspiring and 
>impressing people for ages to come for they touch on something in all of us.

Art may be long, but it's hardly timeless.  The works of antiquity, in
particular, tend to draw most of their importance *from* their antiquity.
15,000-year-old cave paintings are significant precisely because they
tell us that humans were painting 15,000 years ago.  When such paintings
are produced today, they typically go on fridge doors.  Modern technology
allows us to easily (if not cheaply) produce a pyramid twice the size
of the largest Egyptian pyramid.  How inspiring would you find that?

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine  -- Edmund Spenser
From: chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu (Chua HakLien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Ellison
Date: 24 Dec 1992 01:11:57 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

In article <9212232319.AA17732@rutgers.edu> DCHANG@uhccmvs.BITNET (Doreen Chang) writes:
>Question:  Does anyone remember the title of the Harlan Ellison short story
>on which the movie "Terminator" was initially based?
>
>Does anyone know the title of an anthology in which I can find said story?
>
I believe that it was from "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream." There's
an anthology with the same name floating around somewhere, but maybe you
can leaf through The Essential Ellison to see if it's there.

Chua
+==+
From: mitch@novavax.UUCP (Mitch Silverman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Political Correctness + Sci-fi
Date: 31 Dec 92 02:40:56 GMT
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, FL

mlabossi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael C LaBossiere) writes:

> Some brief notes on PC (politically correct, not personal computer):

[Some whole sections of the argument deleted, 'cause I agree, basically. 8-}]

>   2) Literature should be judged on its literary merits and not on the basis
>on how well it conforms to the political or moral ideology of the day. This
>applies whether the oppressing ideology is the excessive moralizing of the
>right wing or the excessive moralizing of the left wing.
 
Of course, the two sometimes cannot be easily separated.  Would "1984"
be such a good book, were it not for George Orwell's understanding of
the relation between social control and language?
 
Also, I guess part of what I'm saying is "What is literary merit?"  I'd
like to hear youre thoughts on the matter.
 
>                                                          Arguments can be
> provided for this position, upon request.
 
Can I have an argument, please?  8-}
 
>   3) Sci-fi, as a genre, tends to be very non-PC. Complaining that Sci-Fi is
>non-PC is like complaining that war novels are not pacifistic enough or that
>romance novels contain to much romance.
 
Hear, hear.  No argument with you on that score.  I suppose that's one
of the reasons I like SF.
 
The SF stories that I found most "disturbing" to my worldview, like
Weinbaum's "A Martian Odyssey", Judith Merrill's "That Only a Mother",
Pat Murphy, Ursula LeGuin, and Samuel Delany--"Rachel in Love", "The
Women in the Trees", "The Left Hand of Darkness", "Aye, and Gomorrah"
and "Stars in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand" *especially*--and I'd add
Leigh Kennedy's "Her Furry Face" and Harlan Ellison's "How's the
Nightlife on Cissalda", and "Born of Man and Woman" (whose author I
cannot remember--anyone have their "Science Fiction Hall of Fame"?),
don't have *any* of their effect because of any of the usual PC
qualities.  Rather, they work (IMHO) bcause they present familar
situations make unfamiliar by very small--and immensely large--changes
to the semiotic landscape.

Just my $.02.

Mitchell L. Silverman              | As Voltaire never said, "I
Student, New College of            | disagree with what you say,
the University of South Florida    | but will defend to the death
Reply to: mitch@cfraix.cfr.usf.edu | your right to say it."
From: aa396@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill Henley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Heinlein biography?
Date: 24 Dec 1992 00:50:23 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


I just read an "authorized biography" of Arthur C. Clarke (by
Neil McAteer) and it occurred to me to wonder: is anyone working
on a biography of Robert A. Heinlein (authorized or otherwise)?
I'd really like to read such a book.

-- 
Bill Henley, Assistant Sysop, Cleveland Free-Net Science Fiction
& Fantasy SIG (aa396)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written