From: gjh2j@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Im a Joker Im a Smoker Im a Midnight Toker)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: "Like Tom Chambers" (WAS: Re: Laettner selfish?)
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:47:27 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <1993Jan27.141131.13938@uvmark.uucp> davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks) writes:
>In article <1k4vhdINNadf@sumax.seattleu.edu> davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu (Stimpson J. Cat) writes:
>>
>>	I often see the comment " like Tom Chambers" made a lot (not just this
>>post, but in other posts and in the media as well.) It is often used to
>>describe tall (6'10"+) players of a certain skin tone who can score points.
>>Well, I suppose this is true to a point, but no more so that calling, say,
>>Dale Ellis a "Michael Jordan type" (both are about the same size, play guard,
>>and can score points.) 
>
>Well, instead of trying to make this a racial thing, let's look at the 
>similarities between the two players...
>>
>>
>>	I have heard guys like Michael Smith, Alec Kessler, etc. called
>>Tom Chambers types for this reason. But I say they are not, nor is Christian
>>Laettner,nor is Tom Gugliotta. Why? Well, the main reason is athleticism.
>
>I wouldn't call any of these, except Laettner, a Tom Chambers type player.
>>Tom Chambers was one of the most athletic big forwards *ever*. He could run
>>the floor with great speed, could handle the ball very well on the drive,
>>and was an outstanding leaper. Nowadays, with Chambers aging and injured a lot,
>>you don't see that, but back in his Seattle days this guy could dunk just about
>>anything and everything, the onlything he rarely did was do the big putback
>>slam, but that was because he was a lousy rebounder. He did all the fancy
>>dunks you'd want, reverse jams, tomahawks, you name it. Even with Phoenix,
>>in his later years, he was still pretty fine (I remember one highlight where
>>he dunked over Mark Jackson, then with the Knicks, on a fast break, Chambers
>>going clear over Jackson with Chambers' head at rim level. The point of all
>>this dunk-mania being none of those guys listed above, and few guys in 
>>general, have the athleticism to do any of this.
>
>Chambers is, as you said, about 6'10 or so.  He is very athletic, can run
>the floor very well, and could handle the ball very well.  Likewise, Christian
>Laettner is about 6'10 or so, very athletic, runs the floor very well, and
>handles the ball extremely well.  For all Tom's athleticism, he was only an
>average rebounder and shot blocker, and Christian is a little better at this
>skills.  Both are pretty good passers, pretty average defenders, and are
>excellent outside shooters for big men.  Chambers is a career 30% 3pt shooter,
>and has taken over 600 of them.  I see the same skills in Laettner.  Both
>players preferred to run and the open court, and in the half-court game,
>both preferred the wings.  I think Laettner is a little better inside than
>Chambers.  Fancy dunks do not a player make!!!   If he truly dunked 
>everything in site, his FG% would have been higher, but Chambers was more of
>a perimeter player that was forced inside, much like Laettner.  Chambers has
>only had 2 seasons were he shot over 50%, which for his position isn't so 
>great.  But, this is because of where he played.  Yes, he dunked a lot of 
>balls, but that was because he was a talented player.  Laettner isn't as
>creative a dunker as Tom, but still dunks the ball a lot.
>>
>>	Also where it falls short- Tom Chambers, for most of his career,
>>was a lousy outside shooter. Not until his last couple of seasons with
>>Seattle, and then with the Suns, did his outside shot come around. Even now,
>>I wouldn't say Chambers is a great outside shooter, solid, but not great.
>>Chambers' offensive game is built around the drive, not the jump shot. Chambers
>>was (is?) great at driving to the hoop. He scored tons of points, indeed
>>most of his buckets in his early career, on drives to the hole. Most of those
>>above people used their jump shots to score big.
>
>Funny, I always thought he was a good outside shooter, especially in the
>latter part of his career.  He did drive a lot, because of his ball-handling
>and speed, but Laettner does a lot of the same.  
>>
>>	Finally, Chambers is a weak rebounder. The only good year rebounding
>>I can remember for him was his 1st year for Phoenix. He was also a poor
>>shotblocker, and this is weird because you'd think a guy 6'10" with great
>>leaping ability could rebound and block shots, but he did not. I don't think
>>rebounding and defense were very important to Tom. He would much rather
>>run on the fast break, and outscore his man. Maybe Michael Smith was "like
>>Tom Chambers" in these respects.
>
>Part of this is because of the type of game Chambers played.  He liked the 
>wing and did drive, but didn't play a lot inside.  When you don't play inside,
>it is tough to get the rebounds.  Over his career, he has averaged about 7
>rebounds a game, which isn't terrible, considering where he played, but not
>great.  
>>
>>	My litmus test for a Tom-Chambers type is this: Can he play small
>>forward? If he can play small forward *consistently* (i.e. start for a quality
>>team at small forward) the guy might be a Chambers type. Chambers did this for
>>Phoenix, but never could at Seattle because X-Man was the small forward (a
>>strange combination- a "small" power forward in X-Man (he was a tough guy and
>>the main rebounder for Seattle) and a "big" small forward (in Chambers, who
>>would rather get out on the break and score points.) A mistake Phoenix repeated
>>in trading for X-Man. To be honest, I don't see many Tom Chambers types out
>>there at all. Maybe you call some of them *old* Tom Chambers types.....
>>
>
>No, Christian Laettner can play small forward, for the right teams.  His 
>defense is pretty bad though, so it would be harder for him.  You talk about
>your litmus test being playing small forward, yet CHambers really didn't do
>this until Phoenix, which was the last 4 years or so.  This year, he sees more
>time at Center, due to the lack of size in the Suns.  
>
>I see more of a litmus test in HOW they play the game, and what skills they 
>bring...
>
>Tom Chambers brought a big guy who wasn't a great rebounder or shot blocker, 
>not a real good defender, but a very good scorer.  He was best on the wings,
>either shooting from outside or driving and loved the open floor.  He was 
>a man without a position in that he was too big and slow to be an effective
>small forward (as far as defending went), and didn't like to play inside
>as a power forward.  He was athletic and fast, but didn't really have the
>quickest feet in the world.  He was a border line AllStar level player during
>his career, with a few outstanding years.  He also has shown an ability to 
>shoot the 3 pointer as well.
>
>Substitue Tom Chambers name with Christian Laettner, and it says the same 
>thing about him.
>-- 
>David T. Meeks            || "New shadows tugging at the corner of his eye
>VMark Software, Inc.      ||  Jostling for attention as the sunlight flares
>uvmark!davem@merk.com     ||  Through a curtains tear, shuffling its beams
>davem%uvmark@merk.com     ||  As if in nervous anticipation of another day"


My God, it's a miracle...posts actually praising the TRUE GOD OF BASKETBALL
(tm), Tom Chambers. I don't know if what you say about the outside shot is 
true though, one of the qualities that is applauded (when people speak well
of Tom, which I have found is not too much) is his ability to shoot the three
or the long range jumper (I remember the guy from TNT saying "That shot has
Tom Chambers written all over it). But from the talk here I would guess that
 is because he is one of the only people 6'10 or over who can shoot the
 outside with fair consistency (Manute doesn't count 8-) )

My personal feelings on "all-star" games once in a while come up, but 
basketball is a team game...I think borderline all-star is a compliment...
Even though many call him one-dimensional (which he isn't, he just isn't the
greatest person in the world to play defense), if that's what the team needs
I say more power to him, and Chambers has always been a "go-to" guy on
offense...and if that's what your team needs (a la Phoenix circa 1988-1990)
 and the player does his job, then there is no reason to criticize.
 Bill Laimbeer will never be an all star quality center, but he does his job
 and has the rings to show for it, which is more than some of these "all-star"
 caliber players who are "well-rounded" have...

Tom always knew and knows he has talent, had he been more charismatic 
and open, and didn't have that injury, he would have had more "all-star"
appearances....that was one of the reasons the Suns and Cotton put him
on Arsenio Hall....unfortunately he also had to share the spotlight with
New Kids on the Block, so there were a lot of teeny boppers wondering why
they couldn't get Michael Jordan 8-)

Thanks for the compliments on Tom Chambers, it beats all the hate mail I get 
from rabid Bulls and Blazers (some of which are the bandwagon variety) fans.

He'll always be number one in my book

Jeff Hawkins- unofficial president, Tom Chambers fan club
gjh2j@virginia.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro