HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: RE: Vulnerable victims
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 23:26:20 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <9204151801.AA03798@abvax.icd.ab.com>, "20583, BENNING, BRUCE" <abvax!iccgcc.decnet.ab.com!benning> writes:

|> >My brother-in-law was 20 when he converted to Christianity.
|> > [....]  Over a period of several
|> >months, he kept telling his little sister that
|> >she would burn in hell forever unless she promised
|> >to believe in Jesus.  After several months of that,
|> >she promised.  Some caring.
|> 
|>    The message is true, though the technique is rough.
|>    Did you ask your brother-in-law why he did this, and if he has
|>    any regrets? Have you asked him not to speak to your children
|>    regarding Messiah Jesus?

Yes.  He can't help himself.  Now my children are older.
He's now free to speak to my (two older) children about Jesus as much
as he wants.  I'm not worried.  My children know too much
about Judaism now to be fooled by the kind of stuff which
fooled him years ago.

|>     I agree with the one poster who said that there are more
|>    positive things about Yeshua to tell someone. There is no real
|>    need to SCARE someone into heaven through the revelation of
|>    hell.
|>    Yet, all of the combined efforts of those in Messiah who share
|>    our testimonies are in fact communicating the same message:
|>        " REPENT and Believe or you will perish."

I'm aware that in Christianity words have special technical
meanings but to me, "perish" is not the same as "burn in hell forever".


|> 
|>    This is a harsh reality, I agree. However, if a friend of mine
|>    drinks and drives, I will do what I must to help him. Even if it
|>    involves taking him to a hospital to see accident victims, or
|>    get him a conference with a local chapter of M.A.D.D. to talk to
|>    mom's who lost children to drunk drivers. Have you ever heard
|>    of CONFRONTATIONS that are used to -guilt- people off drugs and
|>    alcohol? We are not talking about drug addicts but sin addicts.

Well there are also "deprogrammers" who counteract
the brainwashing effects of religious cults by *confrontation*.  Should
my wife's parents have taken their two children there to
counteract the effect of the influence by the J4J missionaries?
(Perhaps so.)

The fact is that there is no objective evidence that
belief in Jesus will save your soul or disbelief in
Jesus will lose it.  There's no analogy to showing
somebody the victims of drunk driving accidents ---
you can't book a tour of heaven and hell to demonstrate
to your "sin addict" how the world works.  There's
the same amount of evidence for the metaphysical
"truth" of your religion as there is for mine --- namely zero.
So your analogy fails.  (Also I thought even Christians
accepted that Christians are no less sin addicts than
non-Christians.)


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Christian concerns
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:31:27 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1832

>Subject: Re: Christian concerns
>From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
>Date: 2 Apr 92 14:36:18 GMT

>I don't care if folks believe premillennialism is true, as long as they act
>like postmillennialism is true.  (Of course I know that if you really
>believe in your heart things won't get better, it's hard to motivate
>yourself to change things for the better.)

I can't believe it!  Twice in the same week you said something I can agree
with!

-- Bruce Tiffany
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Yehudim for Yeshu
Date: 15 Apr 92 12:56:56 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University


kjh@pollux.usc.edu writes:

> Jews for Jesus is a Christian group, in that they are believers in the
> Christ (Greek term), or the Messiah (Hebrew term).

Thank you.  Here's one for the archives.


>  They are Jewish in
> that they are physically descended from Avraham.

Being a descendant of Abraham does not make a person Jewish.  I
thought I explained that weeks ago.


>  They are ethnically Jewish, 

That's not the question.  Do they practice Christianity?  Apparently
they do.  Then why do they describe the religion they practice as
Judaism?

> and are just as Jewish as you are.

How is Bruce Benning just as Jewish as I am?  He was born gentile and
did not convert to Judaism according to halacha.  None of this "Jewish
heart" stuff.


>   I'm sure if you ask them,
> they will readily deny that they reject the Rabbinic religion that you
> follow.  However, this does not change their geneology.  They are still
> Jews.

See above.


> Why are Jewish Bhuddists, Jewish Hindus, Jewish atheists, Jewish
> agnostics, Jewish Muslims, Jewish Bahai's, etc. "bad Jews", but Jewish
> Christians "not Jews at all"???

When did I say this?  I am unfamiliar with groups of Buddhists,
Hindus, Muslims and Bahais of Jewish background who continue to
describe their religion as Judaism.

Jewish Atheists and Agnostics are in a different category.  They don't
practice Judaism - but neither do they practice other religions.

> I think you are exhibiting hypocrisy.

You're welcome,

Rob

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Yehudim for Yeshu
Date: 17 Apr 92 14:13:33 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <1992Apr16.171829.11574@news.eng.convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:
>                             [...]
>>This is also generally recognized to be true by most Christians as well. 
>>Jewishness, just like Christian-ness, is defined by the covenant -
>>spiritual lineage, not by physical lineage.
>                             [...]
>This assertion is absurd.  Of course the covenant is important.  But
>to ignore that lineage has anything to do with Jewishness is just
>flat silly.  ...

I offered a scenario some time ago about a Chinese town that converted to
Judaism.  I posed several questions related to that scenario.  It's
interesting that neither you nor anyone else who subscribes to your
definition of "Jewishness" responded to my questions.  Perhaps you didn't
see them.  Or perhaps they identified the issue at hand in terms that
make you uncomfortable.

I would still invite input on my Chinese scenario.  I think it will highlight
some of the problems with your prooftext theology regarding Jewishness.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Paul (was Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 03:47:29 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr8.191557.2979@portland.mdc.unisys.com>, tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

|> 
|> >What was the basis for assuming that the letters of Paul
|> >were "revelation"?  Suppose they were just "letters" ---
|> >wouldn't Christianity be vastly different?  Paul certainly
|> >doesn't qualify as a prophet by any criterion.
|> 
|> What is the basis for assuming that the writings of Moses are revelation? 

If you mean scientific proof, the answer is none.  Jews, by tradition,
believe the Torah of Moses.  But if you believe the
Torah of Moses, you can't also believe the writings
of Paul, which are inconsistent.  That's why Messianic
"Judaism" is a different religion, not a completion
or an extension or a fulfillment of of Judaism.

What I meant by my question was this: did the early
Christians, who you believe to have been mainly
Jews, offer any Jewishly reasonable explanation
for considering Paul a prophet or adding his
letters to the Biblical canon?

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Saved while vulnerable
Date: 6 Apr 1992 14:41:16 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1992Apr03.195813.6271@watson.ibm.com>, strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
> What upset me and my wife was not that her brother and sister
> became Christians, but the circumstances under which they
> did so.  My brother-in-law was converted at a time when
> he was going through a great psychological upheaval, was
> neither strong nor knowledgeable, and was very vulnerable.

This is not suprising, Rob, and it illustrates beautifully what Yeshua
was teaching.

Christianity:	a relationship with the True and Living God wherein
		those who are sinners, and guilty, and condemned to hell
		are freely given forgiveness and pardon through no
		efforts of their own.

Rabbinism:	a religion of works, wherein people try to be good
Islam:		enough through various means, in order to merit
Etc:		forgiveness and heaven by their own efforts.

Yeshua told us He came for the sick, and that those who (think they) are
well don't (think they) need a doctor.  Yeshua told us he came to save
sinners.  The popular American saying, "God helps those who help
themselves" might fit the theology of other religions, but it was the
opposite of what Yeshua taught.  Yeshua taught that "God helps those who
cannot help themselves, and know it, and cry out to God for a salvation
that is not in themselves".  Consider the parable of the pharisee who
was praying loudly, "Thank you God that I am not like these other men",
contrasted with the prayer of the sinner, "Oh God, have mercy on me, a
sinner." Yeshua said it was the sinner that went away forgiven and
blessed by God.

You can't be saved until you realize how absolutely retched you are, how
sinful you are, and how *HOLY* God is.  When you realize that you'll
never reach God's perfect *HOLY* standard (following the Torah
perfectly, both in letter and in spirit, your whole life), then you just
might cry out to Yeshua and ask Him to give you the salvation that He
promised to all the prophets of olden days.  As long as you hold on to
the idea that you can make God happy with you by your own efforts,
you'll never be saved, nor will you ever appease God.  God is *HOLY*,
and He is pissed off at our sin.  (I used those words purposely--not to
be flippant, but to make the point as strongly as I can.)  God is
*HOLY*, and He is enraged at us.  We all deserve to go to hell, and some
of us will make it there.

Check this out: Today is a great day to be saved!  Cry out to Yeshua for
salvation, while salvation can still be found!  Give up your filthy rags
which don't cover your sin, and trade them in for a spotless robe.  You
who have no money, come and buy and eat.  Give up on your own worthless
efforts, and trust in Him who alone is worthy.

-- 
favourite oxymorons:   student athlete,   military justice,   civil war
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1992 23:10:13 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr2.214146.4416@portland.mdc.unisys.com>, tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

|> 
|> I don't know what you're complaining about, Rob.  Obviously you don't need
|> what Jesus came to offer.
|> 

I agree that I don't need what Jesus came to offer.

What am I complaining about?  People telling my 4-year-old
son that Jesus can read every thought in his mind
and that if he doesn't believe in Jesus, he'll
burn in hell.  That's what I'm complaining about.

If I tried to inveigle your 4-year-old into
not believing you'd be mad as hell.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Messianic Front [NOT!]
Date: 17 Apr 92 14:14:49 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <1992Apr16.172505.12261@news.eng.convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:
>                             [...]
>It seems pretty clear to me.  They are not trying to "sheep-steal" from
>congregations of Christians that do not have the Messianic Jewish focus.

Thank you.  Now I understand his point.  

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The heavenly Jerusalem
Date: 5 Apr 92 23:44:12 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <1992Mar25.092112.15671@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:
> This is pathetic, Tom.  To be in a war, and not even know how to fight, and
> to make fun of those who do.  No wonder you are so easily deceived; you
> don't recognize the deceiver!  How can a person claim to have any spiritual
> life at all and yet not have the foggiest notion what's going on in the
> spiritual realm?  Has your preconceived theology so crippled you?

I think it's interesting to note that we who don't believe in ancient
nomad-based superstition including deamons, spirits, original sins 
and so on, we have a far better way of living our lives, compared with
people that have to worry about deamons, the devil, sinning, the hell,
and so on.

If you would like to live a rich and worryless life, give up on 
superstition! 

Cheers,
Kent
who don't believe in astrology, deamons or elves
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The heavenly Jerusalem
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:32:45 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1840

>Subject: Re: The heavenly Jerusalem
>From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
>Date: 3 Apr 92 19:36:51 GMT

>If it says that Satan cannot decieve the nations anymore, that does not
>mean that there is a Christian in every nation.  It means that Satan cannot
>decieve the nations.  India as a whole is a decieved nation.  There are
>beleivers over there, but most of the nation is decieved.  Saudi Arabia
>is a decieved nation.  China is a decieved nation.  Most of their
>inhabitants are decieved.

Don't forget the good ol' USA!  Put us at the *top* of the list!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\
____/__\____		Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth and
\  / || \  /		the life; no one comes to the Father, but
 \/--++--\/		through Me."
 /\  ||  /\
/  \ || /  \					-- John 14:6
----\--/----
     \/			-- Bruce Tiffany
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Breaking the Sabbath ( was Re: Question for Rob Levene)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 23:42:55 -0400

In article <1992Apr9.143741.15779@pbs.org> you write:

> On March 23, 1992, at 20:21, I asked Rob Levene to document his claim that
> Yeshua advocated rejection of major parts of Torah.  Perhaps he is busy
> assembling that documentation.  But just in case it slipped through the
> cracks -- I know we have experienced problems with disappearing posts
> before -- I am reproducing my post below.

I can't find my post either, but I recall writing it.  I post via
Reply-To: so maybe it was sent to the person to whom I was following
up.  

Anyway, my major points were:

1.  One may heal a sick person in danger on the Sabbath.  Jesus
    knew this law, as he described how one must rescue an
    endangered person on the Sabbath.  In my response, I
    said that I wasn't sure if dropsy qualifies as a
    dangerous illness.

2.  A blind person is not considered sick.

3.  Praying for recovery is standard practice.  But one may
    not heal someone who is not in danger; this is in the
    category of grinding, as delineated in Misnha Shabbath 7:2,
    I believe.

4.  Another "av melacha" (one of the 39 prohibited categories of
    action on Shabbath) is kneading.  When Jesus made a paste
    and applied it to the blind man's eyes, he was in direct
    violation of this category.

If anyone has this post, please re-post it.

Rob
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: What is a Jew?
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:28:37 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1804

>Subject: Re: What is a Jew?
>From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
>Date: 30 Mar 92 22:05:16 GMT

>Some orthodox Jews for example would probably contend that they have a
>right to the land without faith in Christ.  Are they dispensationalists?

I'll bet they've been reading Hal Lindsay on the sly!	:-)

-- BT
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Yehudim for Yeshu
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:18:29 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Apr16.132846.19380@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
                             [...]
>This is also generally recognized to be true by most Christians as well. 
>Jewishness, just like Christian-ness, is defined by the covenant -
>spiritual lineage, not by physical lineage.
                             [...]
This assertion is absurd.  Of course the covenant is important.  But
to ignore that lineage has anything to do with Jewishness is just
flat silly.  Repeated assertions that it is so do not make it so.
Paul identified Israel as the people of his own race (Romans 9:3-4).
Is that not clear enough for you?  Your argument, as usual, is
against the clear and unambiguous statements of scripture.
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: What is a Jew?
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:27:47 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1802

>Subject: Re: What is a Jew?
>From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
>Date: 30 Mar 92 16:38:22 GMT

>>If a Gentile wishes to become a Jew, he can.  ...
> 
>How does a gentile become a Jew under the terms of the new covenant?  Or,
>to out it another way, under the new covenant which God made with the house
>of Israel and the house of Judah, what does a gentile need to do in order
>to be identified with the "commonwealth of Israel?"  Or, to put it another
>way, what does a gentile need to do in order to be considered a child of
>Abraham?

I don't know of any specific provision in the New Covenant.  In fact, the
Messianic Jewish council at Jerusalem affirmed thet Gentiles did not *need*
to become Jews in order to become partakers of the spiritual commonwealth
of Israel, a spiritual child of Abraham.  Since you displike Judaism so
much -- since you say those who continue to practice it at "doomed" --
why would you of all people be interested in becoming a Jew?

>  Please compare and contrast the terms of the old covenant and the
>terms of the new covenant?

What is this, some sort of quiz?  I really grow weary of your patronizing
attitude.

>What blessings of the covenant do "non-Jewish" children of Abraham not have
>access to that "Jewish" children of Abraham do have access to?

Eretz Yisrael, for starters.

>I have only insisted that Jews need to live like
>Christians, just as idol-worshipping gentiles need to live like Christians.
>You, apparently, wouldn't know what a "gentilizer" was if one came up and
>bit you on the nose.

Au contraire.  One has been biting mys nose constantly on this newsgroup.

>I guess this means you don't accept the book of Deuteronomy as canonical.
>Over and over God linked obedience to possession of the land.  And only the
>dispensationalist insists on telling us that disobedient Jews have a right
>to possess the land apart from faith in Messiah.  But you say you're not a
>dispensationalist.

And over and over again He said He would restore them to the land, because
of His promise, not because they deserved it.  You see, my Bible doesn't end
with Deuteronomy.

>  I'm confused.

Now THIS is the truth!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power
____/__\____		of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the
\  / || \  /		Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the
 \/--++--\/		righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith;
 /\  ||  /\		as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live
/  \ || /  \		by faith."
----\--/----						-- Romans 1:16-17
     \/			-- Bruce Tiffany
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Elohim
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:12:30 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Turku

Have you noticed that a name for God, Elohim, is in plural!?
The singular form 'Eloah' can be found e.g. from Job 4:9.

There are also some other peculiarities in old Hebrew, like 'death' that 
is also in plural, 'metim'. Or 'Adonai', my/our Lords.
--
"Ve'ahavta et YHVH Eloheicha bechol-levavcha uv'chol-nafshecha
uv'chol-me'odecha" (Deut. 6:5)

Loving truth is loving God.
                                                                 
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J Stucki)
Subject: Re: Yehudim for Yeshua
Originator: stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University Computer and Information Science
	<1992Apr15.164824.10959@portland.mdc.unisys.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 03:43:21 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.164824.10959@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

   If Christians want to use a certain style of music in their services, or if
   they want to conduct portions of their service in another language, that's
   fine.  Roman Catholics have done this for centuries.  As long as the
   practice doesn't violate the word of God, we should have no objections. 
   (Although, as I mentioned some time ago, the MJ observance of annual feasts
   like Passover is no more biblical that the rabbinic version.  Both are the
   "traditions of men.")  But don't insist that these practices make the
   worship "Jewish."  They do not.  And saying they do is dishonest.

Christian observance of Christmas, Lent, etc. are no more biblical
than the above. They are all "traditions of men" too. As far as I know
there is no new testament support for celebrating anything other than
the resurrection.

The point is that at least a christian celebrating the Jewish holidays
and feasts is rooted in the Judaic/old testament tradition (which
Jesus participated in according to the accounts in the gospels).  On
the other hand much of modern church tradition is rooted in pagan
worship and culture. Which would you rather have?

dave...

David J Stucki	   /\ ~~ /\  ~~	 /\  ~~	 /\  ~~	c/o Dept. Computer and 
537 Harley Dr. #6 /  \  /  \ 	/  \ 	/  \   	/   Information Science
Columbus, OH  43202   \/    \  /    \  /    \  /    2036 Neil Ave.
stucki@cis.ohio-state.edu ~  \/  ~~  \/	 ~~  \/	    Columbus, OH 43210

There is no place in science for ideas,
there is no place in epistemology for knowledge,
and there is no place in semantics for meanings.  -- W.V. Quine