HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Date: Tuesday, 11 Aug 1992 22:32:51 EST
From: <ADMN8686@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Interview with Roy Gutman (Newsday) on camps in Bosnia-Hercegovina
Distribution: na
 <1992Aug7.210804.14529@husc3.harvard.edu>
 <92222.132630ADMN8686@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
 <1992Aug10.184203.14601@husc3.harvard.edu>

In article <1992Aug10.184203.14601@husc3.harvard.edu>,
stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) says:
>
>You again?!

You make it sound like *you* got rid of me, kind of like the ethnic
cleansing I'd be due for if I were in Bihac... I've been around this whole
time just reading SCY.

>Check the references in this thread, and you would be
>surprised.  I have reacted to the initial posting of Joe Blazic, you
>came much later, and posted to both groups.  Now, should each Croat
>with an access to this network post the very same article, am I
>supposed to react each time?

No; or should I say, I don't care either way.

>And, I stick to every word in my posting,
>so I do not see how would I "loose credibility."  Feel free to cross-
>post whatever you want there.   They would be pleased to see that
>Muslims in Bosnia have a custom of engraving mosques to the chests of
>Serbs  ( ABC Nightline has shown picture of this poor man, Joe, are
>you reading this?).

It didn't look remotely like a mosque to me, and if it's a custom, it's
one *Muslims* don't partake in.

>Also, is there any reason why are you not capitalizing Jewish?

No; it was unintentional. Any reason why you don't know the difference
between "loose" and "lose?"

>Regards,
>
>Milan N. Stojanovic

Later,

Tom Grgic (admn8686@ryevm.ryerson.ca)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
From: lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis)
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams (was: MACEDONIA: A SWITZERLAND...)
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 06:50:36 GMT

zoltan@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au (Zoltan Schreter) writes:
>one I answer to here. A rather common thing coming up in these postings
>is the idea that Macedonians are "less civilised" (presumably less than
>Greeks. Is this one reason they should not "usurp" the name "Macedonia"?). 

Greeks try to protect their national security and cultural heritage.
Nothing more and nothing less.

What Skopjeans try to do is: forgery of history and appropriation of 
another nation's culture.   

>I wonder, might this perhaps reflect some cultural inferiority complex on 
>the part of these Greek people? Could this be because Greece IS part of the 
>presumably so "not yet so much *civilised*" Balkans?

No, I do not think so.  Every nation in Greece's position would do exactly
the same thing.  Can you recall a counter example?


>Zoltan Schreter
>University of Tasmania at Hobart
>Asutralia

Panos Lolonis
U. of Iowa


Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,misc.headlines
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 01:19:54 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: More Sarajevo notes

Charles Parker writes:
Still not much has been published in the way of pictures
of the alleged destruction of Sarajevo. There are two possible
reasons for this:

1. There is no destruction, after all; to some degree or other,
   it's a hoax.

2. There is destruction, but the media are waiting to release
   pictures to coincide with some event in the offing.

Those familiar with my other postings will know that I've
favored (1), but it's worth considering (2) in the light of all
the talk about the expected UN resolution to use force to
protect their relief effort. The deployment of troops, including
Americans, to carry out this resolution could be the event for
which they're waiting. In either case, such news management ...

[and so on, and so on]


I say:
The "media cospiracy" theme is an old one and undeniably there
are special charters regarding certain issues (there was last
year a presidential candidate about whom the major broadcasting
corporations agreed not to even mention his name - but it was
because he wasn't actually "news").
In respect to Sarajevo, it is absurd to claim that there is a
media conspiracy.  Actually there is big competition for news
from there and several Weastern reporters were among the casulties
of Sarajevo's streets.
As for the pictures of destruction, I understand your wish of
seeing something spectacular, like a big whole, but not even
atomic bombs droped on Japan did that.
The images I saw were bad enough, Beirut-like, to indicate that
life is hell in Sarajevo (if one is alive).

Rad
From: kontlm@eua.ericsson.se (Tomas Lundstrom)
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:47:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.100940.10672@sunbim.be> sk@sunbim.be () writes:
>in article <Bsy0BM.2wC@news.cso.uiuc.edu> on 13 Aug 92 22:11:45 GMT
>Constantinos Varnavas writes:
>
> >> I repeat:  Macedonia did not participate in the Olympic games simply because it
> >> is not recognized.
>
>Is the truth so hard for you to apprehend? Macedonians were at the Olimpic Games.
>What kind of proof do you whant. The best proof I can think of is the article
>from the newspaper.
>
> >>  I did not see any
> >> "Republic of Macedonia" in the opening ceremonies, I did not see the
> >> "Macedonian" flag
>
>Did you see a Russion flag in the opening of the ceremony? I will say the answer: NO.
>This does not mean that Russia was not on the Games. I presume you know that the Russians
>were competitng under an Olympic Flag, the same as Macedonians.

I seem to remember that I saw Russia's flag, as well as all the other (13 ?)
EUN member flags, at the opening ceremony.

Furthermore, I don't think that ex-Soviets and ex-Yugoslavs were "the same"
status-wise; didn't the ex-Yugos go under the label "independent something"
while ex-Soviets were, yes, "EUN".

During the prize ceremonies, the both used the olympic flag and hymn, though.

Just trying to get the facts right. About this issue of "Macedonia"
I have not enough knowledge to have an opinion.
(However, from Swedish school history lectures I seem to have gotten the
impression that "Macedonia" is something "greekish", rather than "slavish".
I don't know if that's my own impression or if it says something about
the general view people have here in northern Europe.)

I just hope we (humanity) can fix (at least) this problem without a war ...
>
>Sasa.
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
>= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
>= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
>= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


regards/ Tomas

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7988 soc.culture.greek:7564 soc.culture.europe:7350 eunet.politics:1061
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: OMEDEI SUPPORTS MACEDONIA
Date: 15 Aug 92 18:02:52 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Panagiotis Lolonis (lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu) writes:
>I said:
>>And the Macedonians have lived for a much longer time in Macedonia
>>that most of the Americans have lived in the US.
>
>This is a diversion from the discussion.  The question was:  Can I
>declare that I am an American, simply because I have lived in the U.S. for
>several years, and insist that my declaration should be accepted?
>(Replace U.S. with Sweden or even better with Germany if you wish).

I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. I assumed that since you asked this
question in a discussion on Macedonia that you were drawing an analogy
of some sort. Now I realize you are only asking for your own personal 
reason. Since the rules of the US is not my area, I leave that question
to someone else, but I think you should ask it in a separate article 
in a group like soc.culture.usa. (Talk about diversion from discussion!)

>I am still waiting for the definition of "Macedonian" identity and why
>it should be called "Macedonian" and not something else.  I am curious to
>see what are the unique characteristics of the people that you call
>"Macedonians".

I think Stavros Macrakis gave a very good answer to this question.

> I am not sure I understand the analogy here.  That "big European island"
> is officially named as The United Kingdom and its population consists of
> English (82%), Scottish (10%), Irish (2%), Welsh (2%) etc. There is no
>reference to the term "Brit".

Actually the official name of the *state* is "The United Kingdom of 
Great Britain and Northern Island", so to me it sounds like the
name of the island is Great Britain. Furthermore the use of the
adjective "British" is common. And themselves they sing "Rule 
Brittania".

Of course, the basis for my comment was that I assumed that your 
question about whether you could call yourself American was related 
to the discussion on Macedonia, so what I said now turns out to be 
hanging in thin air.

>In the Greek-Skopjean conflict, Greece has objections, and that is the
>difference.

Well, that should be Greece's problem. Not Macedonia's.

>The closest precedence that I can think of is that of
>China and Taiwan.  In that case, the Chinese objections were accepted
>by the international community and the term "China" does not appear
>on the international label of Taiwan.

Which as Stavros Macrakis explained is a very different case, since
the Taiwan regime claimed to the legal government of the entire China.
Macedonia doesn't claim to be the legal government of Greece, or even
Greek Macedonia.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Subject: Taiwan/China
Organization: OSF Research Institute
	<1992Aug15.180252.134@enea.se> <Bt57HL.BoC@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:04:18

In the discussion on the name `Macedonia', I said:

   The former government of Taiwan explicitly claimed to be the
   legitimate government of all of China.

In article <Bt57HL.BoC@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

   According to many Taiwanize friends of mine, Macrakis's comment is
   incorrect....

Sorry, your Taiwanese friends are incorrect.  Until a few years ago,
the `Republic of China' (which controls Taiwan) and the `People's
Republic of China' (which controls the rest of China) each claimed to
be the single legitimate government of all of China, including the
island of Taiwan.  In fact, there were even `representatives' of the
mainland provinces in the Taiwanese parliament.

This situation has changed.  (Note that my remark was in the past
tense.)

   Note also, that Taiwan will be part of China in a few years...

Maybe, maybe not.  Are you perhaps confusing Taiwan and Hong Kong?
Hong Kong is indeed scheduled to become part of China (People's
Republic) in a few years.  Or are you just speculating about the
future of Taiwan?

	-s
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8038 soc.culture.bulgaria:1165 soc.culture.greek:7629
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: STOP BULLYING AND INTIMIDATING MACEDONIAN PEOPLE
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:02:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bt8vK2.Cs3
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

 First, I'll point out this:  Several people have been complaining that this
 should be kept out of soc.culture.australian.  And I agree.  Why are you
 Keep posting in that group? Is it something special about this group, that
 other soc.culture.* groups don't have?

 My following-up on sca is the last one; next time I'm going to edit my
 newsgroup line; please do the same thing. Respect sca.

>STOP BULLYING AND INTIMIDATING MACEDONIAN PEOPLE

 You've started dreaming while being awake?

>   I would like to make a few things clear. Firstly,
>Macedonians are not Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Yugoslavs or
>anything else. We are Macedonians and our language is
>Macedonian - not dialect of Bulgaria or any other language.

 Your stupidity has no limits. You'd better SHUT UP AND CLOSE YOUR MOUTH.
 You offer nothing to the recognition of your state. In the contrary,
 your postings CLEARLY verify the attempt of forgery, falsification,
 and stealing of Greek history and heritage. STOP DOING THIS !!!

 Your above posting also gives me the right to repeat the following:

 YOU ARE BRAINWASHED!!! YOU ARE BRAINWASHED!!! YOU ARE BRAINWASHED!!!

>Sasa.

-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: pnmideast@igc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:46 PDT
Subject: SG ON YUGOSLAVIA
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300353:000:1822
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Aug 12 22:46:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: SG ON YUGOSLAVIA

From pnmideast Wed Aug 12 22:11:54 1992
Received: by igc.apc.org (4.1/Revision: 1.17 )
	id AA01325; Wed, 12 Aug 92 22:11:54 PDT
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 22:11:54 PDT
From: <pnmideast>
Message-Id: <9208130511.AA01325@igc.apc.org>
To: pnmideast
Subject: SG ON YUGOSLAVIA
Status: R

/* Written 11:49 am  Aug 13, 1992 by peg:unic in cdp:unic.news */
/* ---------- "SG ON YUGOSLAVIA" ---------- */
This information is provided by the United Nations Information
Centre in Sydney for Australia, New Zealand and the South
Pacific.

For further information, please call 283 1144.

						      SG/SM/4795
						      12 August
						      1992


    SECRETARY-GENERAL ARRANGING FOR JOINT UN-EUROPEAN COMMUNITY
    CONFERENCE

	   ON FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, TO BE HELD IN LONDON, 26-28
	   AUGUST


     The following statement is attributable to the spokeswoman
for Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali:

     The Secretary-General has received a report from Vladimir
Petrovsky, Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs, who had
been in London on 10 August to discuss the organization of an
international conference on Yugoslavia.  Mr. Petrovsky had met
there with senior government and European Community officials.  It
was agreed ad referendum that the meeting would be named "The
International Conference on the former Socialist Federal Republic
of Yugoslavia", and its first stage would be held in London from
26 to 28 August.

     The Conference, to be co-chaired by the European Community
and the United Nations, is a multilateral effort to settle the
current crisis in Yugoslavia.

     The Secretary-General has asked Mr. Petrovsky to travel to
Paris, where he is today, and then to Brussels to hold further
consultations on the modalities for the Conference.


				    * *** *


Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7884 soc.culture.europe:7194
From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
Subject: STOP BULLYING AND INTIMIDATING MACEDONIAN PEOPLE
Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 16:37:00 GMT

STOP BULLYING AND INTIMIDATING MACEDONIAN PEOPLE

   I write concerning the articles posted on the netnews about
Macedonia.

   I would like to make a few things clear. Firstly,
Macedonians are not Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Yugoslavs or
anything else. We are Macedonians and our language is
Macedonian - not dialect of Bulgaria or any other language.


   The Macedonian people have as much right as anyone else to a
place under the sun without bullying and intimidation by Greek
goverment and Greek fanatic citizens.

Sasa.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
From: ck@cs.tulane.edu (Cris Koutsougeras)
Subject: Re: OMEDEI SUPPORTS MACEDONIA
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 07:23:32 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-13642]: saturn


In article <1992Aug10.172457.4003@sunbim.be> sk@sunbim.be () writes:

>First I decieded not to answer to this because I alrady posted
>an article to newsnet in which this is discussed in more detail.
>However, I will repeat the article once again because it is
>obvious that Mr. Panagiotis Lolonis is entering the discussion
>now and has missed the previous article. For the netters who
>have already read the following article, please just scip the
>rest of the text.

It looks like you are always deciding to pass and instead you elude to
reposts of propaganda material.  You refuse to give/support your views
"because you already posted excerpts..."  That's hardly an effort to
project and convince.  It is clearly evident that all your interest is
in reiterating propaganda material and nothing else.  It is obvious
that your effort is not directed to the Greeks or anyone engaging you
but it simply targets broadcasting.  This is the kind of bullying and
the stuff Greece has been talking about all along while you guys keep
crying out that "we are a small and harmless nation and we do not wish
to promote friction with Greece" and crap like that.

What that article says is totally unfounded and what is more, it is YOUR
translation which we doubt you have properly conveyed given the fact
that you are hardly impartial.  Let alone that regarding that article
you have been confronted and never replied.

The fact is that:

1.  Tito, for well known reasons, has named your region Macedonia
about 45 years ago.  It has not been called such for the 2 mileniums
that you claim.   

2.  The region used to be part of the Macedonian empire but so was
India, and Macedonians declared themselves Greek which you have
nothing to do with.

3.  The reason for your goverment's persistence is because they think
that they can solve their internal problems through such an identity
even if it is stolen, and because their common purpose with Turkey has
them betting on better odds if they follow the Turkish line. 

So what you claim is a lie and there is ample historic evidence to
that, there is also an obvious motive, and there is all the evidence
that Skopije actively pursues the framework of claims against Greece.

So other than the profound blah-blah about 2500 years and other than
the cry-out that you should be allowed to call yourself anything you
damn well please, tell us in simple arguments why are you a Macedonian
and why the Albanians, Bulgarians, Gypsies, etc etc of Skopije should
accept you baptizing them Macedonians.  Till then leave aside the
"bad" Greeks who insist in not giving up their historic heritage for
your sake or because you simply want it that way.

-ck
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 18:32:11 GMT

vkb57@cas.org () writes:

>In article <1992Aug20.161223.10724@wuecl.wustl.edu> jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug19.212149.28184@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>>>Michael Polymenakos (michael.polymenakos@factory.com)  writes:

>>To make it even clearer, greece did not refuse
>>them the use of the word macedonia.  Inboth the proposals of the greek
>>goverement, either calling it slavic macedonia, either naming a province
>>only macedonia, we clearly did not object to the use of the word.

>Could you check you records and clarify by whom and where were these proposals
>made, as well as include a quote if possible?

 I think, when Mr. A. Samaras seized from foreign ministry, someone called
 Junis took his place (althoug typically Mitsotakis was foreign minister).
 Junis repeatedly said that Greece should propose the name Slavic Macedonia
 for that state. For two weeks, there was a public critisism against Junis,
 but Mr. Mitsotakis had kept a low profile in this debate.  In the mean time,
 Skopjie publicly stated (I think was both Gligorov and the then foreign
 minister) that the only acceptable name for them would be "Republic of
 Macedonia".  Based on this reaction, Mistotakis (who was initially much more
 flexible than Samaras), decided to follow Samaras's line.

 Note also that while Mr. Samaras was foreign minister, it was obvious that
 there were two different groups in the goverment: the hardliners of Samaras,
 and the more flexible of Mitsotakis.

 My guess is that Skopjie's reaction didn't leave much room for manauvring
 to Mitsotakis ...

 The above things hapened, and these public debates can be found in any Greek
 newspaper.  Personally, I wouldn't object to the name Slavic Macedonia.
 Now, things got worser.  Mr. Gligorov has done too much damage to his
 country... Too bad, that people in Skopjia cannot understand it (?).

>>
>>>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>>James Dimarogonas


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: notes@cmcl2.nyu.edu (Notes Person)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Stopping Another Holocaust(Milan can't read)
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:59:22 GMT
Organization: New York University

In article 14722@husc3.harvard.edu, stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
> In article <1992Aug13.162244.17350@risky.ecs.umass.edu> curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija) writes:
> >In article <1992Aug12.083403.14657@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
> >>...
> >>
> >>So you have a last word.  I have not seen a single clear statement why 
> >>is what is happening in Bosnia not a civil war, but aggression.
> >>I want to hear an argument if possible.  Probably not.  
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >
> >	Maybe you did not see a single clear statement because you keep your
> >eyes closed, like some other proliferant (ex)writers on this group.  Open
> >your eyes, and maybe you will start seeing something.
> >
> 
> Mr. ( Dr.?) Curcija. please list them, so I can read them.
> Would you?  
> 
> >Dragan
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Historia  Magistra  Vitae  Est
> >___________________________________________________________________________
> >
> 
> Milan


Milan, they have been listed, packaged and tied in a ribbon
for you and all the others on these newsgroups for
months now. You can't read what you don't want to know.
Don't read the next part please.
________________________________________________________
The proof of the Serbian aggression is in the continued
shelling of Sarajevo, Bihac etc. It is in the camps that
keep having prisoners taken away just before Red Cross
visits. Its in the bodies of those two children shot in
the bus, killed because they were in a big convenient
target for a Serbian sniper. It is in the parks of 
Sarajevo filled with the corpses of innocent civilians.
It is in the body of ABC Newsman David Kaplan, shot by
another of the brave Serb snipers. 
________________________________________________________

Read again.
None of the above comments were for you, Milan. Since if
you tried to read them they would appear all smeared and
blurry, I'm saving your eyesight. Maybe you should use it
to read the Helsinki Report on the Serbian aggression.
But you won't. I know.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8186 soc.culture.bulgaria:1188 soc.culture.greek:7841