From: chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney)
Subject: Re: Shameless attack on pro-choicers in general!
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Distribution: world 
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 23:13:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.022124.3457@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp) writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.161448.6148@csus.edu> chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:
>>
>>This is supposed to be a devastating attack? Okay, Mr. Perez, get out
>>your pen and paper, class is in session: 
>>
>>1) Not one single cell in the human body has genetic codes for other
>>organs except for that organ which the given cell is a part of.
>>Stomach cells only have stomach cells, with no provision for brain
>>cells or arm cells.
>>The zygote cell does, in fact, have within it, departments WRT
>>his/her genes, that handle arm, leg, and stomach growth.  
>>FACT: Not one cell in your body differentiates. Only the zygote can do
>>that. This fact contradicts your first point. 
>>2) Twins: The presence of twins produces the question of whether we
>>have one human individual, or two, within the same zygote. DEFINITELY
>>NOT ZERO. Triplets means we have three individuals growing out of one
>>zygote. Quadruplets? FOUR individuals. All of whom are sitting in that
>>one zygote, and growing out. They couldn't grow out unless they were
>>there in the first place, at fertilization. 
>>This contradicts your second point.  
>>
>
>I thought you all might be interested to hear what a biology expert has
>to say about Mr. Chaney's biological comments above.
>
>
>Professor Purves' response to Mr Chaney's claims follows.
>> 1) Not one single cell in the human body has genetic codes for other
>> organs except for that organ which the given cell is a part of.
>> Stomach cells only have stomach cells, with no provision for brain
>> cells or arm cells.
>> The zygote cell does, in fact, have within it, departments WRT
>> his/her genes, that handle arm, leg, and stomach growth.  
>> FACT: Not one cell in your body differentiates. Only the zygote can do
>> that. This fact contradicts your first point. 
>
>Just about every statement in this paragraph is false.  Especially
>the "FACT."

So our professor here is claiming that 
1) Stomach cells can differentiate and produce skin cells. 
2) Zygotes do not have the full DNA code for a human being to grow
from one cell to an adult human. 

Or did David Knapp write this part? 

>> 2) Twins: The presence of twins produces the question of whether we
>> have one human individual, or two, within the same zygote. DEFINITELY
>> NOT ZERO. Triplets means we have three individuals growing out of one
>> zygote. Quadruplets? FOUR individuals. All of whom are sitting in that
>> one zygote, and growing out. They couldn't grow out unless they were
>> there in the first place, at fertilization. 
>> This contradicts your second point.  
>
>This set of statements is hard to discuss, in that I cannot grasp
>the concept of "individuals" "sitting in" a zygote and "growing out."

If there weren't two individuals in there already, there would only be
one that grew out. Simple enough? 

>A person doesn't "grow out" of a zygote; the zygote DEVELOPS INTO a
>person.  Biologically speaking, that is...

An individual grows out of a zygote, and individual = person in the
very basic sense. The only real proof we have of personhood is their
distinct genetic identity.

Now, all we have to do is find out whether or not the zygote contains
twins rather than just one human life, and we have proof on paper of
exactly how the zygote contains either one or two human lives that are
growing out.  

>In the case of identical twins, the zygote (fertilized egg) divides;
>the resulting two cells become separated; and each of those cells
>DEVELOPS INTO a distinct person.  In a single birth, the products
>of the first division of the zygote stay together and develop
>(roughly speaking) into two halves of the resulting person.

One question: Have you ever asked yourself _who_ does the growing? Is
it: 

1) An alien from outer space? 
2) A dog? 
3) A monkey (which the human fetus is confused as, quite often, by
illiterate pro-aborts)?
4) The individual that you see as a "baby" 9 months later? 

When you finally answer #4, you'll realize what we mean by personhood:
personhood = whoever's directing that z/e/f to develop. It may be
twins, which means two persons, or triplets, which means three - but
whoever is directing that growth, is a human being and should be
recognized by the law and given the right to continued existence. 

>> 2) A zygote only needs nutrients and a non-hostile environment to 
>> grow into a newborn baby. A newborn baby needs nutrients and a
>> non-hostile environment to grow into an adult. 
>> What is the difference? A zygote is proportionally inferior and far
>> more vulnerable than a newborn, but a newborn is proportionally
>> inferior and far more vulnerable than an adult. 
>
>A (human) zygote needs lots more than nutrients and a "non-hostile
>environment."  While plants can be raised from single cells in vitro,
>this cannot be done with a mammalian zygote.  Thus far, we can't
>get from zygote to baby without the maternal environment.

Care to give details? The mother gives nothing but nutrients to the
z/e/f. And I stand by the word "nothing but" quite firmly and will
claim responsibility for its having smashed this argument, or its
being wholly disproven. 

>> 1) Ova and sperm are potential humans because they do not have the
>> power to differentiate, until they fertilize. They aren't even growing
>> or developing. The z/e/f does. A common person's view of what I'm
>> saying, might be, "Feed all the chicken soup you want, to sperm, ova,
>> skin cells, or warts, but they just won't differentiate." Can't say
>> that about the z/e/f.
>
>Eggs and sperm do develop, in a biologist's terms.  Otherwise, you
>are okay with this statement.

Specification: differentiate. 

>> 2) The question of identical twins can also be approached by asking,
>> "Do we have one individual human, or two?" 
>
>Identical twins are obviously two individual humans.
>
>Me (David Knapp) again... 
>
>Below I ask Prof. Purves several pointed questions relating to Mr. Chaney's
>assertions. My questions are denoted by >  His responses aren't denoted.
>
>
>> Some direct questions are:
>> 
>> Do multiple births come from multiple eggs or from whacky things happening
>> at early cell division stages.
>
>Identical twins derive from a single egg.  If the daughter cells
>produced by mitosis of a zygote separate, you get identical twins.
>Fraternal twins derive from two eggs, fertilized by separate sperm.
>
>> Is the same DNA in all cells?
>
>To a first approximation, YES.  There are exceptions.  For example,
>eggs and sperm are haploid and have only half the genetic information
>found in somatic (body) cells.  Mammalian red blood cells lack
>nuclei at maturity and hence have NO nuclear DNA.  Those white blood
>cells that give rise to the immune system splice out part of their
>DNA as part of their differentiation to become specific for a
>given antibody or T-cell receptor.

Is he trying to tell us that stomach cells might accidentally mutate
into zygotes? 

>However, "stomach" and "brain" cells have the same DNA except for
>chance mutations in individual cells that are not related to their
>position in the body.

In other words, they do not differentiate. 


Send this message to your professor: 

1) Is the zygote the same as a skin cell or a stomach cell? 
2) Seeing as the zygote is a differentiating cell with the full human
DNA, does any other cell in the body have that DNA code and can it
differentiate? 
3) What prevents a zygote from becoming a stomach cell or a skin cell?
4) Why is it that stomach cells cannot produce skin cells, but that a
zygote contains and grows out stomach, skin, brain and all other fetal
and human (in general) body cells? 

>> Does the DNA contain the 'code' for all body parts and functions? Is 
>> the DNA in my brain cells different than the DNA in my stomach cells?
>
>Yes (first question).  No (second question).
>
>> When does a fetus get along enough to have brain activity begin? When 
>> does myelination occur?
>
>"Brain activity" is not a single, simple thing.  Some parts of the
>brain, such as the cerebellum and thalamus (for example) don't
>specialize until the middle of the second month.  At about this
>time, some reflexes are operative, and the brain may be regulating
>some of the organs.  For this to happen, myelination has to have
>taken place.

Uh-oh. That means that by this standard (brain activity), abortion
would be illegal somewhere in the 2nd month. Right before 90% of all
abortions are actually done by D&C and suction curettage... 

>The events just described aren't really fetal events, but early
>embryonic.  The term 'fetus' usually applies to an embryo at least
>two months along in its development.
>
>> You can see where this is heading, but I need the facts, no hearsay.
>
>My remarks derive from standard books of introductory biology and
>developmental biology.  I am not well informed on the last two
>questions (concerning neural development), but I looked the material
>up in outstanding textbooks.
>
>> Thanks for responding!
>
>You're welcome.
>
>(bill)
>
>Professor Purves' credentials below.
>
>B.S. Caltech 1956, Ph.D. Yale 1959.  Chaired biology departments at
>UCSantaBarbara, UConn, and (now) Harvey Mudd.  Current textbook is
>Purves, W.K. (Harvey Mudd College), Orians, G.H. (U. Washington),
>and Heller, H.C. (Stanford).  LIFE: THE SCIENCE OF BIOLOGY, 3rd
>edition.  Sinauer Associates and W. H. Freeman, Inc.  1992.  In
>use at over 110* colleges and universities this fall term.  *(Includes
>Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Michigan, Berkeley, UCLA...)
>
>From his assertation of Chaney's claims, and other experts I have talked 
>to around the world about Chaney's claims, I, and presumably you, would
>have to conlude that Mr. Chaney doesn't show much knowledge of biology.

Or it means 
1) You forged or misinterpreted the interview. 
2) This professor comes from Berkeley. 

>I would go so far as to say he is ignorant of some fundamental areas of 
>biology which are quite important to understand if one is to make claims about
>biological relations to abortion.

Major mistake. Ask your professor to answer this: 
1) Can stomach cells produce skin or brain cells, yes or no?
2) If the zygote can and does produce all these different cells, in
addition to having his/her own determined gender at fertilization, what
makes this happen? 
3) Does the mother continue to contribute to the z/e/f's DNA? Meaning,
does she add arms, legs, a head and other things that the z/e/f cannot
produce him/herself? Yes or no?
4) What in the world is it in a z/e/f that runs his/her growth? Is it
an alien or a human individual that is still there @ age 80? 

Sounds like you are the one lacking any intellegence, Knapp. Either
that or you're forging.  

===============================================================================
Question: If you don't have truck bombs and thousands of fanatics to
	  sacrifice their lives and drive them, how do you scare a 
	  nation into giving in to your demands?

Answer:   Buy coat hangers and encourage women to kill themselves
	  with them and call yourself "pro-choice".
===============================================================================
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BBBBBB     OOOOOOOO   SSSSSSS   SSSSSSS    Founder: Steve Chaney 
B    B     O      O   S         S          <chaneysa@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu> 
BBBBBBBB   O     OO   SSSSSSS   SSSSSSS    
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