HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sf034281@owl.cellb.bcm.tmc.edu (Shurron M. Farmer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: DC--Crisis Inconsistencies
Date: 23 Jul 1992 14:04:47 GMT
Reply-To: sf034281@owl.cellb.bcm.tmc.edu (Shurron M. Farmer)
Distribution: na
Originator: sf034281@owl.cellb.bcm.tmc.edu


In article <ISBELL.92Jul22122906@panther.ai.mit.edu>, isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes: 
|> But the only thing I'm really interested in is what happended in the
|> Post Crisis crisis.  How many heroes really died on that one, other
|> than Barry Allen?

I'll attempt to answer this using the History of the DC Universe (Marv Wolfman and
George Perez) as a reference, but I question whether this is consistent with the
retcons that took place after it.  Anyway, according to Harbinger who recorded the
history, Krona created the anti-matter universe when he pierced the Great Barrier
into the dawn of time.  The Anit-Monitor tried to take over the positive matter
universe, and the heroes rallied against him.  Besides Barry Allen, the original 
Green Arrow, a Japanese hero (not the Rising Sun, but the other male who died in
the Pre-Crisis and whose name I can't remember), Kole, Aquagirl, and Lori Lemaris, and the original Dove died in the conflict.

I feel that DC needs to print a prestige format series (similar to Green Arrow, the Longbow Hunters) that will clear the many questions that we post in this group.  If some of us would write to DC about it, may be this series will happen.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David VanDomelen)
Subject: Re: XMEN: Forge is not an inventor
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: rec
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:34:44 GMT

Parker TRIED to market his fluid, but it didn't work.  No one wanted to buy 
something that disintigrated a hour later.  One guy DID want it, and was 
willing to kill Spidey ovre it (Spidey WonderMan teamup), but even he wanted it
for 'permanent' uses.
     Forge can actually create working stuff, but his power also include 100% 
quality control.  He never has to worry about the fact that he's working in a 
damp sewer screwing up his gadget.  His inventions would probably be very hard 
to reproduce without very strict quality tolerances, which Forge ignores with 
impunity.
     Dave Van Domelen, you try building a sensitive electronic gizmo in a swamp
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
From: efj1@quads.uchicago.edu (The Crafty Trilobite)
Subject: Re: Jewish Superheros
Reply-To: efj1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:36:00 GMT

Speaking as a practicing Jew (and one of these days I'll stop practicing and 
get it right the first time :) ), BTW, it irritates me a little that none of
DC and Marvel's Jewish characters are very noticably Jewish. (Sabra is 
noticably Israeli, which isn't quite what I'm talking about). Apparently, most
netfolk weren't even sure that Magneto is Jewish, and his background's been 
brought up more in the stories than that of most of the others'.

I mean, really, saying "oy" once every fifty comic books does not demonstrate 
an interest in one's Jewish identity (yes, I'm talking about Kitty Pryde :)

Most Jews I know fret a bit about their Jewishness, especially when they're
at young super-hero age. It's a normal part of the sort of identity crisis
that most superheros go through all the time (er ... that's crisis with a 
small "c" :).  How Jewish am I, does that
mean I have to be religious, should I marry a goy (why didn't Kitty ever once
wonder whether she should get involved with Peter or Doug because of that?).
And so forth.

Kurt Wagner agonizes over his Catholicism, various characters
like Spiderman and Animal Man find themselves occasionally moved to go to 
church or confession.  But we never see a Jewish character taking his
problems to a rabbi, or reading Tanakh.  Or even Israeli folkdancing. We are
all assumed to be assimilated atheists.

For that matter, I'd love to see John Constantine meet a Kabbalist, or see a 
Jew visiting the DC afterlife - I bet he wouldn't see all the Christian 
imagery that's been creeping in there.

I once asked a panel of comic book pros, including Julius Schwartz, about
this. It came up because Schwartz had mentioned that most of DC's early 
staffers were Jewish. So, why no Jewish characters? Well, he said, because at
the time, you didn't have characters of any particular ethnicity or faith,
becuae it might cost sales. OK, I said, but what about today? One of the other
panel members, an indie writer/artist, said that basically, there was no room
in comics for that sort of deep personal question. You don't find, he said,
heavily religious characters, you never hear about character's musical tastes,
favorite baseball team, favorite author (She Hulk excepted :)), etc. Which is
true. And yet, and yet - I can't help thinking that a character's Jewish 
identity ought to leak out in more than the occasional Americanized bit of 
Yiddish. Aren't there any Jewish writers out there with the requisite cultural
background (besides Peter David, who _has_ been putting in the occasional
touch of Yiddshkeit)?     

Nu, any thoughts on the matter? So, ok, if you don't want eppes to discuss, 
it's no trouble, I'll just sit in the dark  :)

--Manny
From: beh10@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Barry Holsinger)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: Jewish Superheros
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:59:02 GMT
Reply-To: beh10@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Barry Holsinger)
Distribution: na
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <2407@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> dream@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Morpheus) writes:
>
>Kitty Pryde is also Jewish.  I first found this out when I read 
>God Loves Man Kills and she had a Star of Davis around her neck.
>
>Just a little Semetic Trivia :)
>
>Oy!
>
>Mike Simon
>-Half Jew

What? Star of (Sammy) Davis (Jr)?

Double oy!

   -barry 


--
Barry Holsinger       | I ain't git'n et by no gators to make my wage!
Sunnyvale, CA         | There are better ways to make a buck in dis
beh10@DUTS.amdahl.com | nutty town!!  -Ralph Snart
From: ghost@ra.nrl.navy.mil (G. Host)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: DC--Crisis Inconsistencies
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:27:24 GMT
Reply-To: ghost@ra.nrl.navy.mil (G. Host)
Distribution: na
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC


> Article <1992Jul23.003334.10190@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David VanDomelen)

> Not even Barry died in Crisis. 
  Didn't you know he just traveled to the Marvel 
> Universe in an issue of Quasar? }->

Not! Don't spoil his memory by mentioned his name in the same sentence
as Marvel.  It is just a cheap ripoff as the Squadran Supreme was.

>      The only heroes that died in Crisis (or villains for that matter) that 
> will stay dead are the ones they haven't come up with new uses for.  And 
> remember, the real loser heroes and villains didn't even rate dying on screen 
> in Crisis.

Barry is dead. Tula "Aquagirl" is dead. The original Dove died.

The Crime Syndicate of Earth III was a major villian group IMHO.
They could have retconed them being from another Earth/Dimension
but they killed them off and did it well.


-- 
Glenn Host          | Moving soon; watch this space for new address!
12307 Tigers Eye Ct |
Reston, VA 22091    |
(703) 620-1141      | I will public post abusive email! Be warned!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics,rec.arts.comics.misc
From: goerz@author.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas R Goerz)
Subject: Re: Crisis Inconsistencies (WAS: Re: The Problem with the GL yellow we
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 05:22:41 GMT

In article <3118@ra.nrl.navy.mil> ghost@ra.nrl.navy.mil (G. Host) writes:
>
>> Article <1992Jul23.003021.10129@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David VanDomelen)
>
>> Actually, Denny O'Neill came up with a good way to scale back Supe's powers, 
>> with it.  Superman thus lost his K weakness and was scaled back to about the 
>
>The problem with the story is that none of Supermans foes were
>Correspondingly weakened so an attack which bothered him before
>was a major problem and attacks which could kill him other than Kryptonite
>would kill him fast!
>
Reading this in the back issues always confused me.  Speaking of villians, what
about the Phantom Zoners??  They could have easily killed Supes. And Supergirl?
She would be stronger than Kal, and that couldn't have possibly happened in
the early 1970s!!  They tried similar things to GL also I believe.  


Chad at Tom's account
goerz@ecn.purdue.edu

Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David VanDomelen)
Subject: Re: reality gem (spoiler from IW4)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:24:42 GMT

Adam already having the gem would strengthen any claims about giving it to 
someone in his soul gem, such as Autoclytus (whatever) or Star Thief.
     What happened in Iron Man #55?

     Dave Van Domelen, "Do not attempt to adjust your continuity, we can make 
it stupid" (tip of the hat to Crow of MST3K)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics,rec.arts.comics.misc
From: ac985@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joel Tscherne)
Subject: Re: Lobo's Back #3
Reply-To: ac985@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joel Tscherne)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 16:44:19 GMT


In a previous article, ss@wpi.WPI.EDU (Scott Streeter) says:

> bxp1628@hertz.njit.edu (Brian Perler) writes:
>>I've been off the net for about the last month, so I don't know if
>>this has been mentioned or not.  I heard it a a couple of weeks ago
>>from my sister, who works in a comics shop.  Apparently, DC will not
>>be releasing Lobo's Back #3, because, on the cover of #2, the artist
>>slipped in a certain portion of the male anatomy that wasn't spotted
>>by the censors (it's on Lobo/Bimbo's left arm, right near the elbow,
>>if you care to look).  If anyone else can confirm or deny this,
>>please let me know.  I have no idea how this will affect other Lobo
>>comics, such as Lobo's Back #4 (would be strange without #3), Lobo's
>>Blazing Chain of Love,
>>Lobo: Infanticide, etc. 
>
>I checked out my copy after I read this, and ya, I guess there was a
>subliminal drawing in the arm. Big deal. I can't see them cancelling
>the rest of the series becaues of it. I figure the worst that can
>happen is if cover 3 has the same sort of thing they can change the
>cover.

Well, I have no way to know whether this is cause and effect, but DC has
just announced replacement cover artists for two books originally
announced as Bisley's.

Congorilla #1 will now have a cover by Brian Bolland and Doom Patrol #59
will now have a cover by Tom Taggart.  

-- 
===============Joel Tscherne:  ac985@cleveland.freenet.edu===============
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
From: ultron@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Andrew H Krieg)
Subject: Re: Marvel Continuity
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:34:15 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.143453.1@skcla.monsanto.com> jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com writes:
>In article <1992Jul25.135712.11188@anasazi.com>, rickard@anasazi.com (Ronald J. Rickard Jr) writes:
>> An interesting rework of the origin of the Fantastic Four themselves will
>> have to be made someday, because the main reason for thier being the 
>> Fantastic Four was Reed Richard's push to have the Americans be the first
>> country in to put people in space.  In Marvel history, the FF were the
>> first humans on the planet Earth in space.  This definitely dates the
>> FF in the real world to the 60s.  
>
>I think here they are de-emphasizing first space flight, and making it the
>first interstellar drive?  Again, anyone have any hard facts?

I don't think a rewrite of their (or anybody's) origin is necessary.  As Rick
Jones pointed out for Magneto and Prof. X, characters regularly get
aged/de-aged.  When the Fantastic Four fought the Sphinx, Reed, Sue and Ben
were all suffering from rapid aging.  Reed built some cocoons to reverse the
aging process and Johnny monitored them.  They ended up getting their ages
reversed further than their 'actual' age, and thus had more youthful bodies.
Fury has his Infinity Formula.  Everybody's got a gimmick.

Anyway, just redoing an origin doesn't do diddly.  Anyone remember when The
Thing and the Human Torch met the Beatles?  Or when the FF fought the Kree
Sentry to keep him from interfering with the first NASA moon walk?  There are
dozens of such references that can be found in any long running series.
Readers should just take them with a grain of salt.  Origins should be
treated the same way.

>We can also pinpoint 'important' events by other features:  are there any books
>with the Statue of Liberty in scaffolds?  How many presidential caricatures are
>there?  If I'm not wrong, it may have been a sacred cow before Reagan.  These
>kinds of things can cause serious retcons in the future.

I clearly remember an issue of Marvel 2-in-1 where an assassin was after
Jimmy Carter.  Carter appears to be shot, but it turns out that the
Impossible Man was impersonating Carter.  I have vague recollections of Ford
and Kennedy in other Marvel books too (Kennedy was in some FF tale).  There
are also references to TV shows (Spider-Man on SNL with the original cast
members, Avengers on Letterman, etc.), movies on theater signs, etc.  I don't
feel any of this stuff needs to be explained away.  If you're paying
attention to this kind of stuff when reading a comic, you're missing the
point behind reading the comic in the first place.
-- 
=     Andrew Krieg	| 						=
= krieg@titan.med.ge.com|  Treguna   Mekoides   Trecorum   Satis   Dee	=
=	   or		|						=
= krieg@point.cs.uwm.edu| 				    - Astoroth	=
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics,rec.arts.comics.marketplace
From: hankins@cs.swarthmore.edu (Luke Hankins)
Subject: CVM and other guides
Organization: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA, USA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:04:22 GMT


I find saying that any of the big price guides are innacurate is pointless
it is not so much demand or lack there of that changes prices but how the
guides change thir prices that regulates demand...I really dont believe
that CVM gets it prices for extensive market reasearch....thier prices are
sh**
	I have talke to many show dealears who have said they just use
whatever guide is highst so they dont look too bad...

DOes anyone have any good ideas on what the Valiant special (gold,red) are
worth right now.,...?

also still looking for bulk order partners...
-morgan
-- 
______________________________________________________________________________
Luke Hankins hankins@cs.swarthmore.edu |"I don't care anymore" -P Collins
for(MyAge=0;!Dead;EnjoyLife);          |"I'm here and here I'll stay" -SOC
While not (EndOfLife) do Havefun(me);  |"...stay sane inside insanity..." -RHPS
From: kautz@research.att.com (Henry Kautz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Subject: Conan queries
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:47:18 GMT
Reply-To: kautz@research.att.com
Distribution: rec
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

Anyone have a list of all the Conan books with artwork by Barry Smith?

Also, years ago Marvel put out a special oversize Conan book, all
artwork by Smith, but reprinted in color for the first time.  The
pages were reproduced larger than the original size and were quite
striking; one story, I recall, was "Red Nails".  Anyone know exactly
what this book was called, if there was ever a followup, and where I
might be able to buy a copy?

Please email (as well as posting);
--
---- Henry Kautz

:internet: 	kautz@research.att.com
:uucp:		allegra!kautz		
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
From: jogle@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re: JLA
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 07:58:43 GMT

In article <mumble> dusek@rtsg.mot.com (James Dusek) writes:

>	After picking up this weeks JLA, I say it
>has gotten alot better. ( Guy's back :). Will we

Well, anything is a step up, IMHO, from the characterizations in the
Starbreaker story arc.  I actually didn't gag on Superman's behavior
this time around!

I had originally decided that I wasn't going to pick up JLA anymore,
but I did want to see how the Guy/Superman conflict was handled in
this issue and it wasn't done too badly...certainly better than I
expected.  

I guess I'll allow them one more issue before I decide if I'm keeping
or dropping the title.  I stuck through the Starbreaker arc hoping
that it would get better (it didn't) and this issue was really just
fluff before the next story arc, so we'll see if they've finally hit
their stride in the JLA or if this was just a fluke of some kind....


-- 
Kansas Jim (Jim Ogle, TORG guru)
jogle@nrao.edu (NRAO-VLBA, Socorro New Mexico)
"I'd be apathetic if I cared."

Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
From: bv446@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James S. Ottaviani)
Subject: Dave Sim/Cerebus -- The Usenet Interview Mini-comic
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 21:06:15 GMT


The mini-comic is finished, and is advertised for sale in 
rec.arts.comics.marketplace. I won't tell you much about 
it here since I dare not risk the flaming. What I will say 
is it turned out well, we sold a lot at DaveUs Detroit 
appearance, the first four orders of 5 (or more) minis will get 
a free Diamondback deck, all proceeds go to the Comic Book 
Legal Defense Fund, and Dave said nice things about it. 
Thanks again, Dave.

We're ready for round two (or VIII, rather), by the way. 
Any questions for Dave? (You should get a copy of the 
mini to be sure your questions arenUt repeats. Heh heh.)

Agh!
The flames are starting to lick at my heels. Better stop 
for now. See you over in rec.arts.comics.marketplace.

                           ***

Upcoming tour dates:

  August 23
  Atlanta, Castlegate Hotel & Conference Centre (Oxford 
Books on August 21)

  November 15
  New York, Ramada Hotel, 33rd & 7th

  December 13
  Houston, Sheraton Grand, Westheimer exit at I-610 (Paper 
Heroes in Killeen on December 11)

seeya
jimO
-- 
Xref: sparky rec.arts.comics:20861 rec.arts.comics.misc:337
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics,rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: DC--Crisis Inconsistencies 
From: gary@futon.SFSU.EDU (Gary Hoo)
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:59:19 PDT
Distribution: na
Organization: San Francisco State University
Keywords: DC Crisis continuity
Summary: Is there a Post-Crisis history?

In article <1992Jul21.215117.6841@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> goerz@author.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas R Goerz) writes:
	[original postings, concerning "Crisis'" killing-off of the Golden
	Age Green Arrow, omitted]
>
>Gee, I always took this to mean the Golden Age GA.  Of course he doesn't exist.
>Or did he then ????
>

Yeah, well, he used to exist, but then got himself killed in the Crisis,
which sort of didn't matter since the Crisis rendered him nonexistent in
the first place, so he couldn't have gotten killed during the Crisis, and, 
um, ....

I could play these games of paradox all day, and I assume there's a profit 
to be made in doing so for DC, but I'd rather someone else answered the 
question: Is there a "post-Crisis" continuity?  (Bonus points for answering
the related self-referential question, "What did the Crisis look like after
the Crisis?")  

[If this issue has been beaten to death before, I apologize.  I don't
remember seeing much in the FAQ, though.]

Every time I see this subject raised, it seems to require mental gymnastics
of a perverse order to get around, let alone to answer, the reasonable
questions that one can raise.  For example, why doesn't anyone seem to
remember the Crisis--not just the red skies, but the multiverse slaughtered
in the process?  There were quite a number of people who survived the trip
to the beginning of time and the subsequent final assault on Earth, and who
apparently are still around today.  The last two issues of Crisis made it
crystal-clear that anyone who had made it to the beginning of time also 
remembered the multiverse upon his/her return to the present-day DC
Universe.  The Last Days of the JSA special operated on this premise as 
well.  

Half of me hopes that there's some mystical Special out there in which it
is explained that the lone survivor (after Superboy) of Earth-Prime, a 
bloodied DC editor, gains enough power to wipe away everyone's memory of 
the pre-Crisis multiverse in the DC Universe.  The other half of me 
figures that, contrary to popular belief, I have a life and I shouldn't 
spend it thinking about this.  8-)

So, what have I missed?  Where are the answers hidden?  In that Suicide
Squid Spectacular that I passed up a few years ago?  8-)

Thanks for your kind indulgence.  

							/GaryH
-- 
			   gary@futon.sfsu.edu
DISCLAIMER: I do not speak for San  | In the short term ... I'd suggest 
Francisco State University, and I   | some _really_ good scotch, preferably
trust SFSU is suitably grateful.    | consumed in Aruba...--Vince Gibboni
Organization: Senior, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 10:22:32 -0400 
From: Harith Jameel Alkhafiz <ha09+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Give Galactus "HIS" due

Yes!!!  That would bring Galactus back up to the levels of cosmic might that
Stan Lee and Jack Kirby intended waaaaaaay back when they first wrote him.
Galactus is a force of nature, an indescribably powerful entity above morality
and emotions.  Unfortunately, this sounds like what happened in FF when the
real Dr. Doom came back (in cool silver armor), restored Kristoff, and
destroyed the Doombot that was impersonating Doom.  This restored Doom to his
previous place of glory and explained why he had been acting so petty of late.
Unfortunately, we know what happened to that storyline.

characters who are severely out of character lately:
Galactus (too petty)
Silver Surfer (not "cosmic" enough)
Dr. Doom (too petty)

any others?

###
9 9
 -

Jameel
Physicist-At-Large
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
From: jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Jagielski)
Subject: Re: Reality Gem.
Reply-To: jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Jagielski)
Organization: NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:07:01 GMT

pmm34393@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Dr. Victor VonDoom) writes:

>In article <jim.2a754746-l@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov> jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Jagielski) writes:

>>The Beyonder/MM "fusion" is now a being called Kosmic, which appears
>>to be a female version of Kubik (who, along with the Shaper, is also
>>an "evolved" Cosmic Cube)
>>-- 

>Where did you read this? I haven't seen anything about these guys in
>a few years, but the guy I saw in the (I think) Quasar issue looked
>a lot like the Beyonder, and he had this scruffy looking guy next to him
>who looked a lot like MM. I think they were standing in a circle 
>talking to a bunch of the cosmic big-shots...

I'll look thru my FF collection... it's in there for sure and possibly
in other places.
-- 
==============================================================================
#include <std/disclaimer.h>

                Jim Jagielski                  NASA/GSFC, Code 734.4
          jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov             Greenbelt, MD 20771

           "The great scallop... this tatty, scrofulous old rapist,
               is second in depravity only to the common clam."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics