HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Moderation (was pentagrams)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:14:47 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Hadrain of Caerthe wrote:

> I  realize that many people have gut reactions to many symbols be they
> archaic or modern.  The events of fifty years ago understandably bring to
> the surface many feelings in many different people.  But once again I
> must insist that it is _unreasonable_ for people to vent thier anger for
> said events on a helpless geometric figure. 

>   If there are any of you out there who really do find the pentacle or
> other such charge offensive, why don't you tell us why here.  And
> while you're doing that think about whether or not your arguements
> imply that the offending object should be removed or the offense taken
> should be.

Sure, Hadrian, I'm happy to oblige: Any use of the swastika turns my
stomach.  Is that rational?  I think so: The only significant associations
that our culture makes with the swastika are Nazi Germany and modern
white-power movements.  That's what the swastika MEANS in our society.
Symbols have meaning, Hadrian, they are not "helpless geometric figures"
that exist without any context.  Words are symbols, pictures are symbols,
but they have meaning.  In our society, by virtue of the meaning which is
nearly universally ascribed to it, the swastika invokes hatred, murder, and
violence.  In another culture, the Navaho, the swastika is a symbol of
peace.  However, to the overwhelming majority of people in American and
European society, it is an insult and a threat.  The intent behind its use
is not important, because the common meaning is so strong and negative.

I don't feel the same way about the pentacle, but there are people who do.
To them, the pentacle means evil and calls to mind visions of blood ritual,
murder, and violence.  To other people, the pentacle carries associations
of love, peace, and holiness.  As in the case of the swastika, our
organization had to weigh the benefits of openness against the costs in
discomfort for participants and the general public and in damage to our
public image.  For the swastika, this was an easy choice; for the pentacle
it was far more difficult.

If you can look at symbols without reacting to their common meanings, then
you are a rare person indeed, Hadrian.  Most of us use symbology every day
to communicate.  If you find that unreasonable, I'm sorry, but that's how
humanity works.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blaxson@shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson)
Subject: Re: More (less controversial) Pennsic tips
Reply-To: balaxson@systems.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:53:54 GMT

> Hoping this does someone some good,
>
>	Lothar von Katzenellenbogen \|/
                                     0
Thank you, it one day shall.

Although I'm not going to Pennsic this year (I just joined the SCA a month  
or so ago and still have other stuff going on) I have been saving most  
posts on practical Pennsic tips.  Having never gone camping (Yes, I here  
Pennsic is not like normal camping) I still have neither gear nor  
equipment set up for such use.

So when Pennsic comes next year........

Brian Goodhart, The Slowly Preparing for Pennsic Next
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Basic Courtesy
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:24:06

 GR> A good handbook I've found for use of smilies... 
 GR> insert them where you'd
 GR> normally laugh in a normal conversation. This means 
    I use a smily or a :^) *anytime* I use the slightest bit of scarcasm 
 .  I also grin broadly when I insert such comments into f2f conversation  , since I've noted that people take such things seriously if said with 
 straight face.  
     Gwenllian CfM

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 08:19:42

    Leonard wrote:

    LE> The only exception *I* would recognize is if you are responding
    LE> to deliberately "bruising" statement.

 I quite agree.

    LE> Even if the filk is "offensive" to many here, that does *not*
    LE> justify a response belittles the poster. A polite comment letting
    LE> him know that it is not considered appropriate is one thing,
    LE> "Thanks, this will make a great example of why filks don't belong
    here" is not.

 I find this confusing. How could the above-referenced comment possibly
 have been phrased that was more "polite"? In what respect does it
 "belittle the poster", since it doesn't reference the "quality" of the
 referent at all? If anything, it holds the cited filk up as a pure type --
 hardly a "belitting" for someone who writes (or performs) filk. Pray bear
 in mind that this was pursuant to an ongoing discussion, in which regard
 "here's an example" ought to have been sufficient reference for anyone
 following it.

    Tadhg

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 11:23:56 GMT



Since we can *prove* that the pentacle is really a *Christian* symbol in period,
wouldn't it be more useful to explain to pagan submitters that it doesn't
represent what they want anyway? It seems to me that a pagan using a pentacle
is in violation of the Rules of Submission in regards to use of *modern*
symbolism if it isn't  pagan within period. 

If I were pagan, I would be quite distressed to find out I was carrying a 
Judeo-Christian mystic symbol around... And surely there are other symbols that
pagans can use beside Thor's hammer. There are any number of pagan legends that
the early Christians "hijacked" that convey important religious ideas that
were bowdlerized for Christian ends. I would think they could be "rehabilitated"
for use by non-Christians. 

Maybe we just need to be more creative?

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com
From: Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Basic Courtesy
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:40:10 GMT

Hypocrisy: Noun: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe
                 what one does not; especially the false assumption
                 of an appearance of virtue or religion.
                                     ^^^^^^


For the last week or so, people have been flaming me, claiming that
I am discourteous.  Hypocrites all.

In the interests of avoiding a flame war, I have not been replying.
But I have been slapped too many times, and from here on I *will*
defend myself, just as I would against a gang of street thugs.
Since I would not be polite to street thugs, and since those who
are attacking me are not polite to me, I will make no pretense of
being polite.

This is my first reply to the thread, but I will reply to any
attacks I see, starting *now* (meaning that any messages currently
in my reader are subject to attack.)

I am tired of people saying "Stephen said" or "Stephen meant" and
then adding some thing that I did not say, mean, or imply.  I *do*
think there is a place for filks.  SF conventions, for instance.
There are many examples.  However, my post said that filk has no
place "in the SCA", and I still believe that to be true.

What people mean when they say "Filk" varies widely.  In this
instance, what I mean is songs that use modern tunes (Gilligans
Island, Leaving On A Jet Plane, etc.) *or* modern subjects (such as
a van being used to get to an event.)

I find it interesting that the hypocrites have not asked me about
filk, or what I meant, or anything else.  They have simply flamed
me, while making up things that they claim "Stephen Meant".

Dafydd says...

>If it is Stephen's (or *ANYONE'S*) allegation that someone
>creating filk (for the entertainment of people, for their own
>personal gratification, for completely non-SCA purposes) is wrong,
>then I think that they should go shove it up their mule.

SHOVE IT YOURSELF!  First, I never said any such thing, second you
have some nerve using this sort of language to attack me for
something I didn't even say in the interest of "Courtesy."
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:55:58 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Hal Ravn (Wilson Heydt) writes:

>Perhaps that should be "*Some* of the people . . . want it."

Perhaps we should compromise.  The people in the SCA who want
rapier combat should do it.  Those who don't, shouldn't. :-)

-- Nicholas van Leyden
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Regarding cameras at SCA events
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:00:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: mintaka.1992Jul24.160017.24645
Organization: Organization???

In article <1992Jul24.113740.15312@agora.uucp> trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
>>
>>> No Flashes isSCA policy). 
>>
>>No, it isn't.  It is East Kingdom law.
>
>Well...it *ought* to be SCA policy. 
 
No, it ought not be SCA policy.  There is an entrenched anarchism and 
anti-centrism in the Society that has many salutary effects, including
(1) keeping the corporation lean, (2) keeping rulemaking to a reasonable
minimum, (3 [=1+2]) keeping corporate-level rulemaking especially 
minimal, and (4) encouraging rulemaking to occur at the lowest effective 
level in the Society's structure.  While I certainly agree that there 
shouldn't be flash photography in courts, the effect of this issue is 
felt in the Society's various realms, and the appropriate level at which 
to make rules regarding the conduct of the courts of those realms is 
at the level of Kingdom and Principality law. 
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lcatlett@milton.u.washington.edu (Lynn Catlett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:11:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul23.191134.28620
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Excuse me for quoting Esmerelda quoting Stephen 
responding to (ad infinitum or at least a long, long way...)

> Just because
>> people do a thing, it does not automatically become an appropriate thing
>> to do.  Filking of modern tunes is an abomination and if Stephen wants to

My memory of Christian Juaregg's (sp? sorry) original 
post was that it contained a clear leading disclaimer 
labelling the work as (paraphrasing) "Out of Period, Silly Filk and
if you don't like that stuff, please push 'n' now."  How much
more polite could the young man have been?  How much more
egregiously unkind and/or rude can others be than to disregard
that effort AND the clear good nature of the work?  

At one time or another we all hit the "r" button too soon,
please try to read the *whole* message before ignition.  If 
something really annoys you, you know (if you're on line) 
there's this nifty "k" command...

Lynn/Lin
(Period Pursuits:
  planting, pruning, weeding,
  watering, harvesting, preserving,
  and starting again)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:25:57 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Palymar (REED E HARRIG) writes:

>Is the SCA just a harbor for any activity that can be remotely
>documented as being done between 600 - 1600?  I await your comments.

Unless someone has changed our charter (Corpora) while I wasn't
looking, the answer to that question is "yes."  The only legitimate
exceptions I see are 1) things such as torture, religous persecution,
etc., which are incompatible with our own modern sensibilities, and
2) things that are impossible to recreate safely.  Rapier combat does
not fall into the first category (the only people who find it offensive
are those who have decided to find it offensive) and does not fall into
the second.  Therefore, it should be allowed.

As far as being "remotely documented," we have abundant evidence that
rapiers existed, were carried, and were used in period.  They are
commonly seen in late-period portraits and described in literature 
and drama. We have many extant speciments, so we know their characteristics
and construction quite exactly.  We have extant rapier manuals, so 
we know quite a bit about their use -- far more than we know about
most Medieval weapons.  No one is sure how a Medeival knight normally
carried his shield, for example.

Rapier combat is much better documented than the tournament combat
of the rattan fighter.  I can document single combat between armored
fighters, taking place on foot, but I doubt that most people in the
SCA can, and I wouldn't begin to compare it to the volume of documentation
on rapier-style combat.  

-- Nicholas van Leyden


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon)
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 18:08:45 EDT

Greetings!

I probably ought not to try to explain something I'm having trouble
phrasing clearly to myself, but ...

There are a bunch of theories about social pain minimization.  One
is that one is obligated to be careful of other people's presumed
emotional state (take the 'presumed' out and it's an obligation
to be telepathic, which is similar to an obligation to have three
hands), to avoid hurting them.  This is what Bertram, Esmeralda, 
Yaakov, it all apear to be espousing - they're assuming that it
is a nervous-making thing to post a composition, and feel obligated
to be gentle in criticizing it, to minimize the composers potential
hurt feelings.

There is another theory that says 'act without malice; if someone
is offended/caused pain by your actions, they will tell you.  Similarly,
if someone causes *you* pain, tell them.'  This appears to be the
theory used by Stephen, Hossein, and others.


For my own part, I am Ymir-cursed *tired* of hearing songs sung to
the tunes of television shows at events.  I am also aware that much
of the value of the SCA to a large part of it's participants is as
a venue for social interaction where they feel safe and welcome, and
that attempts at change that are percieved to threaten that will be
met with intense and generally reflexive and irrational hostility.

My own idea about coping with this is that if someone is doing 
something one simply cannot stand, *help them*.  The person so
laden with insecurities that they *enjoy* offending the 'stuck up
authenticity freaks' is rare, thankfully.

Graydon

        Graydon the Curious         /graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
  Skraeling Althing, EAldormere, MK / "Nihil est quin obsisti possit"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: icklinck@cayley.waterloo.edu (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Insurance
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:37:27 GMT

We're planning on holding an event in the near future (the First Revolt in
Ealdormere), and the site owner wants a bit of info on our insurance - the
Insurance Company's name, and the amount of coverage... He doesn't require a
certificate  of insurance, so if someone can give me the info, it'd be
appreciated.


Rhys ap Bledri, of the College of Skeldergate and the Canton of Schutzeheim

Ask me about The First Revolt in Ealdormere (the division of Septentria), Labour
Day weekend!
Xref: sparky rec.org.sca:10999 rec.games.frp:24288
From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.games.frp
Subject: Files for FTP
Keywords: sca, rpg
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:34:37 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ

The machine that I maintain files for this organization has moved.
Previously files could be ftp'd from rainbow.cse.nau.edu.  The
new address for anonymous ftp is ftp.nau.edu.  If you have any
questions about the files that I maintain, please email me.

-- 
Let sleeping dragons lie........                    | The RoleMancer 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
William Wilson (wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu | wilson@nauvax)
Northern AZ Univ  Flagstaff, AZ 86011
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: evilted@vesta.unm.edu (Evilted)
Subject: Re: twinkie names
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 21:27:15 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque NM
Summary: my $.02
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Distribution: rec

What I have found is
that 'of' was not used, but it is often the only way to translate names
correctly. From the only reference I have handy:(Old Celtic Romances--
P.W. Joyce, 1962)
Dierdre Duibhshleibhe -- Dierdre of the Black Mountain
Curnan Onmit -- Curnan the Simpleton
There are more, but these will do. Are these names 'twinkie' in their
English translation but not in the original?

I want to get this point clear to me as I will be selecting a name for
myself soon.

Thanks for your time.
-- 
evilted@vesta.unm.edu             . o        c ,
bunderw@nyx.cs.du.edu              "#v--  --v#"
                                   /'>      <`\
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:13:10 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center


Palymar (REED E HARRIG) writes:
 
>Is the SCA just a harbor for any activity that can be remotely
>documented as being done between 600 - 1600?  

Yes.  Drop the words "just" and "remotely", and leave off the early cut-off
date, and you've got a pretty good definition of the SCA.  I usually put it
a little different: The SCA is a loosely organized framework within which
we can learn about medieval culture through research and selective
re-creation.   

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Regarding cameras at SCA events
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 01:39:14 -0500

jvincent@eagle.wesleyan.edu (The Ulair) writeth:

 TU> I've never been at a Court where flashbulbs went off

Lucky you.  I've had twits set them off not only in lit halls, where the main
effect is simply to ruin the atmosphere, but worse, at DARK events (not courts,
but such as well back from a campfire at night), not only in my general
vicinity, but even close to me or my direct line of sight (i.e., right at me).

(The TRULY pathetic part is that most often they're trying to take shots of
something that is WELL beyond flash range to begin with... and that they
consider themselves photographers.  On a GOOD day, I can handle an instamatic
properly, and even *I* know better than to use a flash on something in front of
a fire 100 feet away - and have more consideration than to even experiment with
it at events....)

 TU> (and No Flashes is SCA policy).

PLEASE tell that to the aforementioned twits....

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dmm@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (donald)
Subject: Re: "Once upon a Weekend" demo tape
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Distribution: usa, world, na
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:52:56 GMT

boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan) writes:
: 
: In article <1992Jul23.182936.22256@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>,
: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes a most courteous
: message, the lengthy body of which I do not wish to quote - I only wish
: to offer my compliments on a most polite and well-written missive.
: 
: 	Thank you, m'lord!
: 
: 				- - Steve
: 

It was a  most gracious response indeed, and well I should heap further 
accolades on a fine and well considered exposition, but forsooth the
topic begs a wider eye to view it in consideration of points raised by
other gentle folk attendance.

I come as a spectator, for now, who meerly wished to ply my request
for aid in contacting a member of your society in the mundane area of
Evanston, IL.  Accepting that one may best receive who first gives in
a spirit of reciprocity I will offer a brief account of what has been
a most manageable arangement regarding photography in a setting oddly
akin to the one discussed here.  I wish neither to offend by the
content of my words nor by presuming their appropriateness other than
as a tennable option I have experienced in a different, albeit,
similar context.

The context, to which I refer, involves a group that eschews Babylon
(similar to Mundania) and has come to consensus regarding certain
exclusions (such as electronic music, weapons, alcohol, and money) 
of that realm from its gatherings.  The consensus regarding
photography is that it is the responsibility of the photographer to
ask permission to photograph everyone who will be recognizable in a
photograph before taking that photograph.  It is also the
responsibility of everyone at such gatherings to make sure that that
which is consensual is upheld so photographers are oft'
reminded of their tolerated, but not always welcome position.  This
permits those who wish not to be photographed at least anonymity in
what photographs are taken without their permission while encouraging
those with cameras to keep them well concealed if mearly for the sake
of avoiding constant admonitions concerning appropriate use.

Please accept these thoughts as proffered, meer considerations for
those who cared to read of them,
donald of the Great Lakes Bioregion (formerly of Katuah) on a
different tangent from the mundan
From: brandon@husc10.harvard.edu (joshua 'yaz' brandon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question....
Date: 23 Jul 92 20:36:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Jul23.163654.14108
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


derlith@wuntvor.norman.ok.us (August Derlith) writes:
>                Can I use Antlers in all of my decorating?
>
>                                                        -Derlith
>        (Or is that not in period?)

The *music* isn't period, but the sentiment probably is.... :):):)

Para servir a ustedes,

	Simon Santiago de Cordoba		Joshua Brandon
	Duncharloch, Carolingia, EK		brandon@husc.harvard.edu
YAZ/mycroft