HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig)
Subject: Re: The christian perspective...?
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 05:29:53 GMT
Organization: Starfleet Headquarters: San Francisco

eric_gorr@coglab_psych.uoregon.edu (Eric Gorr) wrote (in article <1992Sep15.005244.9777@nntp.uoregon.edu>):
>In article <y6yngcj.bskendig@netcom.com>, bskendig@netcom.com (Brian
>Kendig) writes:
>> 
>> eric_gorr@coglab_psych.uoregon.edu (Eric Gorr) wrote (in article <1992Sep14.220550.24355@nntp.uoregon.edu>):
>> >Do you believe that there exist certain cases of euthanasia which would be
>> >morally ok?
>> 
>> What does euthanasia (mercy killing) have to do with abortion?
>
>A lot, actually...so, please answer the question and I'll explain further.

Hmm.  I have no idea what you're getting at, but I'll bite: yes, I
believe that there are cases of euthanasia which are morally okay.  I
believe that it's VERY important for life to have meaning -- in my
book, it's more important to die with dignity than to live a little
longer at the expense of dignity.  Life is too precious to uphold
blindly.

I'd like to keep this away from a discussion on euthanasia, because
that topic belongs on another newsgroup -- so what's your point?  :)

     << Brian >>

-- 
_/_/_/       Brian Kendig  Macintosh Jedi           Live never to be ashamed
 _/_/   Starfleet Captain  Oracle Employee         if anything you do or say
  _/  Intrepid Adventurer  Saturn SL2 Owner    is published around the world
      bskendig@netcom.com  Wizard of Frobozz    -- even if what is published
    Princeton '92! BSE/CS  Writer/Actor/Singer                   is not true.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig)
Subject: Re: The christian perspective...?
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 00:08:39 GMT
Organization: Starfleet Headquarters: San Francisco

eric_gorr@coglab_psych.uoregon.edu (Eric Gorr) wrote (in article <1992Sep14.220550.24355@nntp.uoregon.edu>):
>Do you believe that there exist certain cases of euthanasia which would be
>morally ok?

What does euthanasia (mercy killing) have to do with abortion?

     << Brian >>

-- 
_/_/_/       Brian Kendig  Macintosh Jedi           Live never to be ashamed
 _/_/   Starfleet Captain  Oracle Employee         if anything you do or say
  _/  Intrepid Adventurer  Saturn SL2 Owner    is published around the world
      bskendig@netcom.com  Wizard of Frobozz    -- even if what is published
    Princeton '92! BSE/CS  Writer/Actor/Singer                   is not true.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: for bill overpeck
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:52:26 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.020726.6021@crd.ge.com> james g keegan jr <keegan@crd.ge.com> writes:
#In article <1992Sep9.183517.9900@acd4.acd.com>
#	wdo@TEFS1.acd.com (Bill Overpeck) writes:
#-> In <1992Sep8.171005.15796@crd.ge.com> keegan@pan.crd.ge.com 
#->    (James G Keegan Jr) writes: >
#-> 
#-> >        "I haven't noticed any behavior from either
#-> >        Chaney or Holtsinger that would indicate a
#-> >        need for psychiatric evaluation."
#-> >		<1992Sep2.191938.5951@acd4.acd.com>
#-> >
#-> > might i refer you to the following articles. if
#-> > you don't have them, i'll be happy to email them
#-> > to you.
#-> >
#-> >	Message-ID: <1992Sep8.151356.9274@csus.edu>
#-> >	Message-ID: <1992Sep8.151810.9463@csus.edu>
#-> >	Message-ID: <1992Sep8.152330.9676@csus.edu>
#-> >	Message-ID: <1992Sep8.152723.9942@csus.edu>
#-> >
#-> > after you read them, i wonder if you might not
#-> > awant to mend your statement.
#-> 
#-> I read each of them.  You seem to be confusing
#-> immaturity with mental illness.
#
#i suspected that you'd say that. it's too bad, really,
#that you don't think therapy might help. perhaps you're
#just doggedly hanging on to a point you've already
#lost.

I think that Overpeck is caught in the "don't criticize
another pro-forcer too strongly" trap.  He seems to think
that it's reasonable for Holtsinger to not expect to have
his sources checked, even though I had given advance notice 
that I would do so.  He seems to think that it's only a
sign of immaturity when a 21 year old is convinced that he
is a fictional entity (or an inanimate object.)

Teenage women who want to make decisions for themselves,
on the other hand, are deemed to be in desperate need of
couselling.  

Susan




Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Subject: Re: Chaney's sig
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:36:03 GMT

In article <SCOTTS.92Sep10141204@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU> scotts@CS.CMU.EDU (Scott Safier) writes:
> In article <1992Sep10.121732.22743@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz) writes:
>    In article <1992Sep10.004317.17482@csus.edu> chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:
>    Note that nowhere in Ms Feldt's statement is there any indication
>    that she would make her personal religious viewpoint the law
>    of the land.
> 
> Dean, why would Chaney want to do that?  Then he couldn't fantasize
> about his "manlihood" and how much better he is than anyone else.

It's a funny thing about that.  The only truly tough guys I ever
met never indulged in threats or bragging.  I could tell you some
stories, but the point remains that Chahallney has this habit of
making all kinds of macho, kick your butt kind of noises via
an electronic medium.  Which strikes me as really wimpy.  Who
can follow up his threats with action over the phone lines?
Silly kid stuff he offers, actually.
> 
>    > Okay, Susan Garvin: Point out the anti-semitism in my .sig. 
>    The anti-Semitism is inherent in criticizing her religious
>    beliefs, especially as she nowhere seeks to impose them on
>    anyone else via legislation.

> Dean, you are showing the patience of a true hero.  Susan must be very
> proud of the way you try to explain to Chaney why he is an idiot.  But
> I bet he doesn't understand you.

He doesnn't even see my posts.  He put me in a killfile some time
back when he wasn't able to successfully respond to what I was
writing.  He got all huffy because I concurred with Scott Roby and
had spoken with the boy's sys admin and confirmed that he was
the owner of the Dennis Hall account from which bogus "pro-choice"
postings were made by him, Stephen "Dennis Hall" Chaney.

>    Congratulations.  Please follow up your foolishness by declaring
>    victory.
> 
> Don't worry, he will.
> 
>    > Class over. 
>    > This is how you put a complete and total end to a complete and total
>    > asshole like Susan Garvin. 
> 
>    Never one to disappoint, after managing to fail completely,
>    Chahallney declares victory.
> 
>    By the way, for those who don't know Susan Garvin, she's a
>    terrific person.
> 
> Well, she's OK, except she has this bad habit of painting my mother's
> dog. (yes, I know this statement is ambiguous.  I mean she applies
> paint to the dog.)

I hope she lets the first coat dry before she applies the second.

Dean Kaflowitz

Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: Item for Chaney's study of abortion--adult/child sex link.
Keywords: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:07:56 GMT

In article <nyikos.715887517@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
#In <Bu4304.6FK.2@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
#
##In article <nyikos.715043800@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
### [Dan King wrote] 
####Were the pro-lifers picketing the house because he was involved in 
####child pornography (an illegal act), or were they picketing the house
####because he performed abortions (A legal act).
### 
### Don't assume the abortions were legal.  Here in Columbia almost every
### abortionist has done 2nd trimester abortions in his clinic, and some
### even admit it openly, even though South Carolina law says all 2nd 
### trimester abortions must be done either in a hospital or a licensed
### clinic, and not one of the clinics in South Carolina is licensed.
#
##I just noticed this.  Is this law enjoined, Nyikos?  Have you
##checked?
#
#Thanks for mentioning this possibility.  I'll bring it up when next
#I talk to my source for the "admit openly" bit.

Or, you could just call your state Attorney General's office -
I thought that you believed in unbiased sources.

Here's a clue, Nyikos.  The skepticism that you see for the
myriad claims of anti-abortion people is not just a reaction
to Holtsinger's repeated lies on t.a.  It stems from the
continual use of half-truths and outright flasehoods by
the "right-to-life" movement.  

##I saw an idiot on the televised Lambs trial in Fargo who claimed
##that he didn't know that a similar law there was enjoined, and
##that he thought he was therefore entitled to break into the clinic
##to prevent further violations of the law.  Needless to say, the
##judge didn't buy it.
#
#Nor would I, even if the law hadn't been enjoined.  Taking the
#law into one's hands to this extent is hardly ever justified.

It's nice to know that you will stop somewhere, I guess.  You
sure don't seem to have any trouble with passing off rumor as
fact here.

Susan



Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney)
Subject: Re: Attention!
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Distribution: world 
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 23:15:33 GMT

In article <adams.716055646@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>dking@raul.nas.nasa.gov (Dan King) writes:
>
>
>>Steve [Chaney],
>>
>>When you start to pretend your important, do you stick out your
>>chest as far as you can and talk in the whiny, excited Rush Limbaugh
>>voice?  
>"The wronger they are, the more strident they are" seems to fit here...

What, in Dan King's case? 

I proved my case and presented all the facts needed to prove it beyond
a reasonable doubt. 

Dan King just runs his mouth. 

>>I'm just kind of curious how much of Rush's radio persona
>>are you trying to use.
>Some sort of 'ego' envy...idolizing someone like Rush...geesh.

I don't use Rush's persona. 

I just happen to LIKE a pro-lifer in a strong position who never backs
down, and who will flaunt their views in front of pro-aborts like you,
and not be vulnerable to any efforts you take, to shoot them down. 

Rush Limbaugh has survived boycott attempts galore, especially in Los
Angeles, and has literally laughed them off.

>And whether or not Rush is serious is immaterial to the amount of money he
>makes!  ;-)  Sort of like 'pro' wrestling...;-)

Then Molly Yard would be a good candidate for the WWF. 

=============================================================================
>##       "My logic is based on ... a religious perspective which says
>##  that personhood begins at birth (actually a month after birth if
>##  we want to be precise)..."
>##    -- Gloria Feldt,
>##       chief executive, Planned Parenthood of Central and Northern Arizona

>##   "I see nothing extreme or reprehensible about this statement."
>##     -- garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) <BtnDAw.Iwo.2@cs.cmu.edu>
=============================================================================
|Pro-Contraception   Pro-Freedom of Religion, Speech & Sexual Orientation   |
|Pro-Privacy    Pro-Humanism   Pro-Freedom of Choice 	Registered Democrat | 
|			Card-carrying member, NRLC                          |
|           Dedicated to achieving civil rights for the unborn              |
-----Steve Chaney: Founder, Borg Operating Space Systems, Revision 2.0-------
	       The B.O.S.S. does not speak for CSUS. 

Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: The use of fat black ass to describe Chaney is unsupported
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:25:50 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <29674@wissel.GBA.NYU.EDU>  smezias@wissel.GBA.NYU.EDU (Stephen J. Mezias) writes:
> Personally, I would never use fat black ass to describe an African
> American.

Nobody on the net did describe anyone that way.

The term was used to refer to a portion of anatomy.  That some people
are unable to distinguish between "Get your ass over here" and "Get
over here, you ass" is unfortunate, but should not reflect on the
speaker.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: A time to live, a time to die, a time to laugh, a time to cry...
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 00:12:52 GMT

In article <18qeapINNpvc@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
>All of this has been happening over the past 40 years or so, true, but it's
>the sheer number of the baby boomers that is going to bring this to the fore.
>We simply cannot, as a people, afford $250,000 worth of medical care for 
>each and every old person to extend their lives by a few months.  And before
>anybody out there goes leaping upon me, please bear in mind that I'm older
>than most of you...I'm no 18 year old kid to whom grey hair means 'ancient'.
>I'm speaking instead of the skyrocketing cost of medical care that is a 
>demonstrable phenomenon in our society, and what I think will be happening
>with it.
>
>I recall the description of pneumonia as 'the old man's friend', by a 
>physician friend of mine.  As technology advances, and we *can* extend lives,
>we have to decide when and when not to do so.  (We being very rhetorical
>in this case.  I don't think *I* have any business deciding for someone else,
>obviously (-:). 

Not that anybody is likely to care, but my living will goes into effect Monday,
September 14, 1992.  It states that "unusual methods" to prolong my life are
only to be used for 7 days, and then _I_ want the plugs pulled.  If _I_ can't
survive on my own, then I would prefer to be gone.
--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza.  OK???=
="When trying to choose between two evils, I like to choose the one I haven't =
= tried before" - Mae West, but I think I'm going to try it also...           =
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: "only 3 doctors...perform third trimester abortions" is supported
Keywords: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 04:08:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.173611.6427@ncsu.edu> dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
#In article <1992Sep04.164504.39938@watson.ibm.com> 
#margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
#
##dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
#
### margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
#
#### even if I did my own investigation and came up with the same answer
#### reported on 60 Minutes and in the Minneapolis StarTribune,
#
### The Minneapolis StarTribune quoted the National Abortion Federation,
### which looks like a pro-abortion organization.
#
## I don't understand how you can be discussing sources which support my
## statements when you still claim that the statements are unsupported.
#
#I don't understand how you can casually dismiss my unbiased sources 
#which show that Roe v. Wade is unrestricted abortion on demand throughout 
#the term of pregnancy and then expect me to accept your pro-abortion
#sources.  

They contradict the decision itself, for one thing.  

They're not all unbiased, for another.

There's a difference between not believing speculation and
claiming that someone hasn't supported their claims that
you seem to be intellectually incapable of understanding.

#(And please leave the preceeding sentence intact, if your
#honesty allows you to do so).  

You are amusing, aren't you, DOD?  Again, I ask why you expect
more of others than yourself.

#Doug Holtsinger
#
#      "My logic is based on ... a religious perspective which says
# that personhood begins at birth (actually a month after birth if
# we want to be precise)..."
#   -- Gloria Feldt,
#      chief executive, Planned Parenthood of Central and Northern Arizona
#
#  "I see nothing extreme or reprehensible about this statement."
#    -- garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) <BtnDAw.Iwo.2@cs.cmu.edu#
      -- dking@nas.nasa.gov (Dan King)  <Insert header info here
      -- gjh@virginia.edu (Galen Hekhuis)
      -- chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) <Insert header info here
      -- cookc@rpi.edu (rocker)
      -- steven@jaynes.uswest.com (Steve Novak)
      -- smccabe@mn.ecn.purdue.edu (Sarah McCabe)
      -- lefty@apple.com (Lefty)
   "Neither do I" -- ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) <2ymn8gh.ray@netcom.com# 

What is it about Judaism that bothers you so, Holtsinger?

Susan





Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: Chuck.Lavazzi@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Chuck Lavazzi)
Subject: Re: More Specious Unsubstantiated LIES from Nyikos
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 04:14:58 GMT

In article <BuF2BD.30L.2@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.043505.18727@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>#In  <1992Sep10.222220.27942@rigel.econ.uga.edu>  mills@uga.edu (Kathi Mills) writes:
>## Look, people.  Just because Nyikos is anti-choice and generally clueless about
>## abortion doesn't mean EVERYTHING he writes is NECESSARILY wrong.  THINK and
>## do some research YOURSELF before you flame.
>##
>## # tanj
>## ## Nyikos
>##
>## ##Fact: some Planned Parenthood clinics do not use anesthesia.
>##
>## #Substantiate this so-called fact.  Or retract it.
>## #My guess is that all you have is whole-cloth "testimony" again.
>##
>## This "so-called fact" is true, unless PP has some arbitrary internal rule
>## requiring anesthesia.  When I had my abortion, anesthesia was NOT required,
>## although it was strongly suggested.
>#
>#His statement implies that they don't use it at all, which is quite
>#different than not *required*.  If he had said "Some clinics don't
>#force you to use anesthesia", it would have been clearer, but not
>#sounded as damning.
>
>Indeed.  A clinic which gives a single patient anesthesia "uses"
>anesthesia.  Unless Nyikos can prove that there are PP clinics
>which will not give anesthesia to anyone, he's lying.
>
	Isn't this the same pinkboy who claimed that the Mafia was running
abortion clinics, only to start waffling and backpedaling when folks asked
him to actually produce some evidence?  Or was that DOD?  It's hard to tell
them apart without a scorecard anymore.  Place is just *thick* with pinks,
glorps, and condupes these days....
>This is probably another of those things that he "heard" and
>didn't bother to substantiate.
>
	Probably read it in _New Dimensions_.....>:-)>

>Susan

Chuck
No .sig, no frills, no foolin'


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson)
Subject: Re: Another gem -- this time from Peter Nyikos
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:53:34 CDT

In article <1992Sep10.184620.8392@wdl.loral.com> bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com writes:
>garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
># nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
># #{Satire, but with a grain of truth: Now do you see why I have such a
># #bad case of womb envy?}
># 
># Right, Nyikos, it makes as much sense as envying soldiers because
># they get to wear such pretty uniforms while ignoring the dangers
># that they face.
>
>So who's going to write the lyrics to `Pregnancy Hymn of the Republic?'
>
You HAD to ask.

Mine eyes have seen the glory of my breakfast being lost,
And I'm still sick in the nighttime when the backache makes me toss,
And if I have stopped my weeping it's because I am too cross,
With Hormones raging on!

Run, run into the bathroom,
Run, run into the bathroom,
Run, run into the bathroom,
With Hormones raging on!

muriel
standard disclaimer
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: dking@raul.nas.nasa.gov (Dan King)
Subject: RE: The christian perspective...?
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 23:22:01 GMT
Reply-To: dking@raul.nas.nasa.gov (Dan King)


In article <1992Sep14.230558.1@vf.jsc.nasa.gov> mcmillan@vf.jsc.nasa.gov writes:

>Sure there's still rape and incest in the world.  I'll compromise with you,
>Heather.  I'll agree to allow abortions for rape and incest if you'll agree to
>prohit abortions done out of convenience.  I believe I'll save at least 10 
>babies out of every 11 now being aborted.  Deal?

How would this law work?  Would it be enough for the woman to say
she was raped and then she would have access to a legal abortion?
Would you require some sort of proof?  Would there be a period 
when she must report it prior to getting the legal abortion?

I see problems with such legislation.  If you make the legislation
to stringent, then many of the people who should be able to take
advantage of the option may not be able to.  If you make your
legislation to lenient, then women that you had intended to
restrict, will have access to abortion.  So how do you plan to
work this legislation?
 
I'm also semi-curious how you come up with the 10 out of 11 
number.  I would think this number would depend on how the 
legislation would be written.
 
>Heather, at what day before birth do you think it is too late to allow an
>abortion, and why?  

I'm not Heather, but I'll answer anyway.  My feeling is abortion
should be legal up to birth.  While I would be uncomfortable with
a woman that would decide to abort her pregnancy 1 day before 
delivery, I have seen no evidence that this is a problem.  If
you could demonstrate a problem, then I may reconsider my 
position.  I think if we make late term abortion too restrictive,
it will cause un-necessary harm to women with legitimate 
reasons for requiring a late term abortion.  I believe 
legislation that is not solving any problem, but may cause
other problems is silly.  


>Stokes McMillan -  	Flight Evaluation Office (VF3)  NASA JSC

Dan King
From: margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Another gem -- this time from Peter Nyikos
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:05:38 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Organization: The Village Waterbed
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM

In  <nyikos.716331450@milo.math.scarolina.edu>  nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
> In <1992Sep11.155334.8415@hemlock.cray.com> mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson) writes:
>
> >Mine eyes have seen the glory of my breakfast being lost,
> >And I'm still sick in the nighttime when the backache makes me toss,
> >And if I have stopped my weeping it's because I am too cross,
> >With Hormones raging on!
>
> >Run, run into the bathroom,
> >Run, run into the bathroom,
> >Run, run into the bathroom,
> >With Hormones raging on!
>
> Do we have here another case of pregnancy being held in contempt?

No, we do not have here a case of pregnancy being held in contempt.
If "another" refers to Ms. Garvin, we didn't have a case there, either.
What we have here is someone who has experienced pregnancy relating her
experiences.  If someone says "When I was pregnant, I had morning sickness,
backaches, and mood swings" do you typically accuse them of contempt?
If so, I think it's *you* who are showing contempt for the typical
pregnant woman.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion