From: philip@utstat.toronto.edu (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: A4000 vs 486 ?
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Distribution: world, public
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:09:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan28.000628.20006@ra.msstate.edu> skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:

[ ]
>>
>>The words "stupid" and "smart" are not applicable to the point at hand. Both
>>Windows and the Finder are attempts at addressing the problem of the 
>>desktop metaphor. Noone said either was perfect. Many obviously don't like
>>their respective approaches. They happen to be in a very small minority 
>>though. I'd certainly agree that noone has come up with an ideal, or even
>>close to ideal solution and that goes for the Amiga.
>
>It sounds as if you are trying to say that the majority is always right.
>While I will agree that the majority will usually win, I don't agree that
>the majority is always right.  In the part of the US where I live, the
>majority liked the idea of segregation and as a result it was enforced by
>law for several years, yet I doubt very many people would agree that the
>majority was right.

That's not what I was saying at all. Just read the message. I was simply 
saying that many people have their favourite views regarding the current
approaches to the desktop, that people are still working on the problem and
no perfect solution exists. What does this have to do with tyranny by the
majority? I wasn't talking about who was right/wrong/ whatever...
>
>As for someone coming up with an ideal solution to the problems of the
>user interface, I seriously doubt that anyone ever will.  If at some point
>the majority feels that the user interface is "perfect", the potential for
>a better solution is lessened.  People who are satified with the way things
>are tend to stagnate, people who are disatisfied will continue to try to do
>better.  As someone once said: "Stay hungry".

I never said someone would solve the problem. Are you replying to my message?
>
>>>>Also the word "hate" is simply inappropriate.
>>>>The only effect messages like these is  having is in  conveying
>>>>the impression of Amiga users as a bunch of immature brats.
>>>
>>>So what's the appropriate word, dislike ?  Feeling better now, hmm ?
>>
>>All I'm feeling is that you haven't a clue what I'm talking about.
>
>I hope you don't treat your students like you do people here...

My students have manners. They tend to avoid words like hate,stupid, etc...
>
>>>If there are people out there stupid enough to judge Amiga-users
>>>by what they think of various GUI:s then I really feel sad about THEM.
>>
>>It's not that. The Amiga is a fine computer and certainly people have every
>>right to criticize Windows, Finder, Presentation Manager, etc...It's the
>>manner in which it's done that counts. Perhaps the Internet should really
>>reconsider who gets access to it. It's not at all clear to me that anything
>>is solved by the use of inappropriate language, and that seems to be the
>>norm here.
>
>Have you ever heard of something called the freedom of speech?  Perhaps you
>don't believe in it in your country, but I assure that many US citizens hold
>that right very dearly.  Implied in that right is the freedom to not read or
>hear anything that you don't want to.  If you find something to be offensive,
>either ignore the post, put the author in a killfile, or unsubscribe.  The
>people posting on the net are real people who may not subsribe to the same
>code of morals and standards that you do.

Freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to abuse public forms. Along with
freedom comes responsibilities. There is a guide to acceptable behaviour on
the Internet. Moreover I specifically mentioned Internet access. I don't        feel that undergraduate students should have access to it. The Usenet is
another matter. In any case there is a code of behaviour and this group has
been moving further and further away from it. 
 
The US doesn't have a monopoly on democratic beliefs and rights, despite your
implication.
>
>Anyone wanting to limit access to the internet because they don't like what
>someone says or how they say it ranks right up there with Hitler, Stalin,
>the Reverend Wilder, and other fascist pigs in my book.

Do you even know what the Internet is? This kind of name calling is absurd. It
simply disguises the point you are trying to make, as offends a lot of people.
>
[ ]
>
>>>If I had got a MAC instead of an Amiga, then I'd probably know absolutely nothing about disks,
>>>now if you have an Amiga and insert a non-AmigaDOS disk you get a funny
>>>message saying "..checksumm error.." and various others.
>>
>>Big deal. Do you call that learning about anything important? 
>
>This is a rather silly thing to say, don't you think?  To someone who is
>interested in a computer related field, such things can be very important.
>Have you ever heard a story about a society where all the work was done 
>by machines and everyone had a good life?  No one needed to know how the
>machines ran and consequently the knowledge of how to fix them was lost.
>One day, the machines began to break down, but no one knew what to do.  
>As a result, things began to become much worse and many people died because
>of their ignorance.

I lost interest in i/o a long time ago. It's a difficult and not pretty area.
I don't think that a knowledge of i/o is important to the daily welfare of
most people and society in general. Some people like fooling around with 
device drivers. It's not my idea of a high priority learning item.
>
>The Mac, and many other things in our society, are too much like that for
>me to feel comfortable not knowing how things work.

The Mac is a bit of an appliance which is what a lot of people really need.
Too bad it doesn't multitask. Computers can be wonderful information gathering 
tools, and the Mac is a good one. I really don't care how disks get formatted
in comparison to the ability to find a reference in a civilised way.
>
>>>Makes you wanna know what it really means, doesn't it ?
>>
>>Nope.
>
>It's awfully strange to hear someone who is a scholar saying that he does
>not want to know how and why something behaves the way it does.

Why? There are a lot of things which don't interest me. Life is short and one
develops priority interests. Otherwise you end up with information overload.
>
>>>It's nothing like the MAC "Keep user safe and stupid"-policy,
>>>"bogus disk inserted, do you want to format etc".
>>>You could as well buy your kid a stupid console, what a sad kid that 
>>would be.
>>
>>The Mac approach is more appropriate for younger children and even 98% of the
>>population. The days of hacking are over. I for one don't care which cpu
>
>That's not giving the population much credit, now is it?  While I don't
>believe that everyone has the potential for being a computer genius, I 
>don't believe them all to be stupid either.  And you are very wrong if 
>you somehow believe that the days of hacking are over.  

There will always be hackers. The nature of hacking is changing. In any case
I do give the population a lot of credit. They have looked at what is available
and made choices based on reasonable criteria. For the most part people are
not interested in computing. Those that are happen to be a varied lot. You
have all types there, including Amiga users. But mainstream NA has converged
on 2 platforms for now- the PC and the Mac. It's not my favourite outcome, but
the other vendors left people with no choice. Software is everything now. The
Amiga will never be a very popular platform. That, to me, is a good thing.
It means the user community is not too large (and not too small) and people
get to write interesting PD/shareware software. The software available for 
very little money for both the NeXT and the Amiga is outstanding. These are
2 platforms that will never be mainstream in NA. It's really no big deal. On
the other hand if someone with young children asks me what platform to buy (
assuming they will buy any) I simply can't recommend the Amiga. This wasn't the
case with the C64 years ago.
>
>>is used, what the OS is, etc...as long as it runs the software I want it do 
>>and in a way I want it do. In particular, anything that hides i/o operations
>>is fine with me. That, in my opinion, is the way it should be.
>
>And that's where you suddenly drop to the level of any ordinary user.

Why? Not every user needs to be a systems' type.
>
>>>"I think therefor I Amiga"    -says it all, and the reversed is most true.
>>>
>>>Seriously, your article says nothing.
>>
>>Then why bother replying?
>
>To watch you squirm, maybe?

Possibly, but I don't feel it happening.
 
Philip McDunnough
philip@utstat.toronto.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy