Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:30:05 -0500 
From: "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: This has gone too far.....
	<BzMww8.K5y.1@cs.cmu.edu>


hde+@cs.cmu.edu (Herbert Enderton) writes:
> In article <YfBYIBW00Vp6I7G0wV@andrew.cmu.edu> "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.\
> cmu.edu> writes:
> >Best for ogging and planet taking?   Hmmm....  In low clue games the
> >AS is probably best for planet taking (you don't have to go home as
> >often since you pick up 20 armies at once :-).  In top quality play
> >the SC or the AS is probably the best.  Since you probably don't have
> >more than 2 free armies at once (so you use a SC), or you've saved
> >your armies and are going to crash a planet (and want something
> >durable that will survive the clearing, so an AS is used).  The DD is
> >just....there.  I want even comment on using 1 for ogging.  I love it
> >when people use them for that.  That means I can take planets in a SC
> >or an AS with no interference.  
> >
> >> and now you guys are telling me it's not.  maybe i should fly BB next.
> >No, stick with CA's and SC's for most stuff.  
> >
> >       joe
> >       Purple haze
> >       Lamb, Leg Of
> >
> 
> This thread started out interesting, and I liked Joe's argument that
> a SC should win a dogfight with a DD because the SC's torpedos are
> faster.  I disagree, but I liked the argument.  If we define what a
> "dogfight" is a little more carefully, e.g. say it's a game of King
> of El Nath (you win if you can orbit El Nath for a couple seconds),
> then the hypothesis is largely testable.  Personally I'd expect the
> DD's stronger phasers and larger fuel tank to prevail.
Interesting.  I'd like to try this out.  If the DD loses here I don't
see much use for it other than it carries 5 armies.  How do you expect
the DD to win, I'm curious.  Phaser the SC down?  Run and shot torps
out the rear?  

GED, Helix:  did you two duke it out with the DD and SC?  What
happened?


> 
> But Joe and Tim seem to have gone off the deep end with their
> extrapolations.  Even if the SC does win a King of El Nath fight,
> that doesn't mean the DD is a weaker fighter in other situations.
> Its longer range torpedos are great for getting kills from twinks and
> wounded ships,
Huh?  If the ship is so wounded that torps fired at longer than SC max
torp range will hit, you can probably close to SC max torp range and
kill the guy anyway (and don't tell me my torps won't hit from that
far).  Plinking people with the SC looks ok.  

> and also for plinking starbases and orbiters.  When
Ok, this the one point I cede.  On the other hand, it's not very high
on my list of reasons to choose a ship.  How often do you shoot torps
longer than SC torp range and actually hope to hit?

> ogging it can deliver more damage than a scout (including a larger
> explosion),
But...a SC can ogg a DD.  And a DD can't ogg a SC.  The fact that the
DD is slower and can be mutualled with by the SC is a telling point
IMO.  And SC take less damage to die which is kind of nice while
ogging.

> and also hover cloaked longer (against bad odds you
> sometimes want to stay cloaked near the target planet until the
> victim orbits).
Very remote chance, but yes, the DD is somewhat superior here.  

>  Also it can phaser a cloaker to death in situations
> where a scout would run out of fuel.
Again, you pick a very marginal case.  How often do you phaser
cloakers to death in DD's.  I can't remember the last time it
happened to me.  But this is a very special case.  If you want I can
go on and on
about how SC's can just beat the opponent to the planet where the DD
would explode with 5 armies.  And how the SC would just be able to
reach the planet in time to bomb.  And how the SC's warp 16 torps
miraculously manage to save the day by arriving at the planet just in
the nick of time and destroy the evil planet taker.  But these are 
meaningless special cases.  I want to know what happens in general:
which oggs better, which wins the battle of El nath, which takes
planets better.  The first one is tricky since SC ogg DD's, DD's don't
ogg SC (neither oggs AS), but DD's have somewhat more luck against
CA's.  We'll have to see about the battle of El Nath.  And as for
planet taking, I start getting nervous when someone picks up 5 armies
and is in a DD, they just pop too easily.  

> The DD is a damn fine ogging ship,
Against what?  It's ok against a CA, and anyone in a DD, but that's
it.  The SC works against the SC and the DD, and marginally against a
CA.  
> but this year the best oggers use a CA instead (except for Akira).
You probably just insulted a large number of non CA oggers...

> The DD is undeniably the fastest ship that can carry 5 armies, 
No.  An AS docked to a SC can deliver the goods at warp 12 (I'm
ignoring bases with the gift...).

Also, the SC is undeniably the fastest ship that can carry 2 armies.  
The SC is undeniably the fastest ship.  The AS is undeniably the
fastest ship that can carry 20 armies.  The CA is undeniably the
fastest ship with 40 point torps.  The BB is undeniably the fastest
ship with phasers doing more than 100 points of damage.  Every ship
has something undeniable about them, that doesn't make it a huge
selling point.  

> and I've seen it used for that purpose
> more and more in tournament games (one used to see more AS and CA
> carriers).  
Hmm...the games I've watched I've seen the opposite effect.  When a
planet is taken it is because both teams crash into it and someone
emerges with it (in most games I've watched at least).  An uncontested
take is fairly rare.  I've seen more SC than CA carriers, it's easier
to change targets if one is cluttered.  

> The balance among all the ship-types is very even, 
No.  You pulled up a bunch of bizarre cases (come on, long range
plinking of orbitters and bases) and showed the DD is marginally
superior to the SC in these select cases.  


	joe
	Purple haze
	Lamb, Leg Of