HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shaver@convex.com (Dave Shaver)
Subject: How much of a discount for "new" executive or demo car?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 19:11:02 GMT
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corp, MPP System Software, Richardson, TX
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Since I'm thinking about buying an "executive" Thunderbird SC or
Explorer, I have lots of questions about how these "new" cars are
sold.

	- How much of a discount do dealers generally give on either
	  demo or "executive" cars?

	- How many miles are "normal" for such cars?

	- Any special tricks to negotiate a better price on these "new"
	  cars that are really used?

	- Any gotchas?  (Other than the obvious that demo vehicles
	  might have been driven hard.)

Thanks for any insight you can provide!

/\  Dave Shaver
\\  CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, TX
\/  Internet: shaver@convex.com    UUCP:  uunet!convex!shaver
From: jdeifik@isi.edu (Jeff Deifik)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: downforce and cornering g's (was which car handles the best?
Date: 1 Oct 92 15:29:43 GMT
Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute

A car does not need any downforce to corner or accelerate or brake at over
1.0 g. For example formula 1 cars corner at 2-4 g (perhaps with downforce).

The most telling counterexample to the 1 g limit myth is the top fuel drag cars.
They accelerate from a stop at well over 4 g. The 0-60 times are well under
a second. At low speeds, like from a start, downforce doesn't come into play.
They do it with sticky tires, lotsa power, and careful weight transfer.
Think of the g forces needed to accelerate 0-300 mph in under 5 seconds.
--
	Jeff (turbo) Deifik		Internet: jdeifik@isi.edu
Phone:	(310) 822-1511 x241 work	(818) 347-3428 home
Bitnet:	jdeifik%isi.edu@cunyvm.cuny.edu	CSnet:    jdeifik%isi.edu@relay.cs.net
Uucp:	...!{harvard,rutgers,uunet,sun,ucbvax,uiucdcs,talcott}!isi.edu!jdeifik
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mark@wdcwdc.sps.mot.com (Mark Shaw)
Subject: Re: FWD vs. RWD, Which is best.
Organization: Motorola Western MCU Design Center, Chandler Arizona
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:23:32 GMT

In article <Bvnsow.1q1@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Oct2.233501.17589@newsgate.sps.mot.com> mark@wdcwdc.sps.mot.com (Mark Shaw) writes:
|> >
|> >So anyone can claim RWD or FWD is better, but all they are telling me is that
|> >they either know very little about what makes cars handle or that they only
|> >know how to drive one type of design.
|> 
|> Unless, of course, they're telling you that no matter how well you
|> drive, you can't cheat the laws of physics.
|> 
|> Each wheel+tire has a certain amout of friction which it can use to
|> effect a change in the vehicle's motion. In a RWD car, the friction of
|> the rear tires is used to propel the car forward or backward, while the
|> friction of the front tires is used to effect changes in heading. In a
|> FWD car, the front tires must do BOTH jobs; thus, it's easier to exceed
|> the ability of the tire to grip the road effectively if you're
|> accelerating and steering simultaneously.
|> 
|> Why do you think there aren't any FWD Indy cars or NASCAR racers?
|> 

You are still pushing the "limits" arguement.  I will not argue the
limits issue, I am just saying that most people are totally unable
(or untrained) to extract the maximum performance from their cars.

In this case debating the relative merits of either layout is a totally
wasted effort.  Improper tire inflations, bad shocks, unusual loading,
and/or driving habits will can make either design unmanageable.
People should learn how to maximum the performance of their cars in
all situations.  IMHO the reason most people get improved "performance" 
by buying something different is because that new design happens to
tolerate their driving habits.

Unfortunately the general public has learned their driving skills from
the "Miami Vice School of High Performance Driving."
All slip and slide, smoke and screach! 

One abrupt, ill planned manuever can turn a 1g sports cars into a 
slithering 0.7g grocery wagon.  Then again I have seen one particularly
good driver in the local SCCA Solo II program turn times in a Chevy
Caprice Wagon that would be the envy of many want-to-be performance
drivers in a Corvette.

It's all relative.  

Mark
Xref: sparky rec.autos:23298 misc.consumers:17427
From: murthy+@EDRC.CMU.EDU (Sesh Murthy)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,misc.consumers
Subject: 1993 Bonneville price; New grad discount?
Date: 5 Oct 92 10:26:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.Bvn90v.EC9.2
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University

I just bought the 1993 Pontiac Bonneville.  i.e. I have taken delivery 
but not paid or signed anything. (I think I must look respectable.)

The price we agreed on was $17000.  Is this reasonable.  It as base car.
No options etc.  

The dealer tells me that there is no discount for new graduates on this 
car.  I thought GMAC gives new grads $500 and 5.9% financing on any GM 
car if you finance?  Can someone in the know tell me if the dealer is 
right.  The problem is that other dealers told me that there is
a 500 dollar discount from GMAC and somebody at GMAC also confirmed this
on the phone.

BTW the car is dark green in color and lovely.  I have owned about 15
cars (Hondas, Toyotas, and GMs) and this is the best so far.  
Keep it up GM!   I will keep you posted on how this car works out. 

Thank you
Sesh Murthy
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech,rec.autos.driving,rec.autos.sport
From: st901745@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Alastair M. Bor)
Subject: Re: *** Design Logic Faults ***
Reply-To: st901745@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:42:49 GMT

The reason the fan is not always on is that a car runs more efficiently
at the rated operating temperature... whith the fan on all the time, it
will take longer to get to the rated temperature... also in the winter it
will take longer to get **heat**...

-Alastair Bor
st901745@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
From: yu@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Fan Yu)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Cooling problem
Date: 1 Oct 92 00:33:35 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University

In article <1992Sep28.064716.11586@ryn.mro4.dec.com> paulman@hkmeg1.enet.dec.com (Paul Man) writes:
>
>I hope here is the right place to post my question.  Recently I
>bought an 85, manual transmission, Honda Civic.  Don't know if 
>it's my imagination or what, I think my car has some cooling 
>problem.  The water in the plastic cooler tank dries out very 
>fast.  There would be less than 1/5 of water remaining in the 
>tank after a 200 km (or so) drive, so I have to fill it up again 
>every two or three days.  I had an 81 Ford Escort before and it 
>never have this kind of problem.

Have you checked any leakage under the car?
>
>The reading of the temperature meter is also funny.  The reading
>stays at the 1/3 position (normal position) if I am driving on
>highway, that means high speed and non stop.  However, if I go to
>places with lots of lights and traffics, that means low-gear, start
>and stop very often.  The reading will go up to 2/3 position.  If
>the meter is functioning properly, does that mean the engine is
>running hotter in low speed???!!!
>
At highway speed you have the wind to help cool your engine.
If you are in stop-and-go city traffic, the heat generated by
the engine can't dissipate, the coolant temperature will rise
subsequently. However, at a preset temperature the cooling fan
will run and you will see a quick drop in the temperature guage.

I don't know how an 85 civic works but this is how my car does its job.

Frank
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: smith@comm.mot.com (Jeff Smith)
Subject: Re: FWD vs. RWD, Which is best.
Organization: Gagging Sloth Records
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 21:22:17 GMT

Hey, have  any of you people ever actually *driven* a front wheel
drive car in the snow?! It doesn't sound like it! Let me preface this
by saying I *much* prefer RWD at least as far as performance cars go.
However...when I lived in an area where snow was a factor, the FWD car
was much *easier* to drive in snow without losing control. Period. The
car would simply *never* fishtail. With a RWD car, when it loses traction
with the rear wheels (and it will, unless you're extremely careful, and
even then it sometimes will) it tends to fishtail, or even spin. A FWD
car simply will not. As for that McCluggage guy who supposedly claims he
couldn't drive a FWD car up a hill in snow...well, that's B.S. I passed
plenty of RWD cars who were stuck on hills in the snow when I had my
front-driver. I don't know what his problem was.

jds

***************************************************************************
                               * Health and knowledge and wealth and power,
Jeff Smith                     * Passion and poems and sex
smith@fl08-g.comm.mot.com      * I wear a smile like a leather glove,
                               * I won't shut my mouth for less.
                                                - shriekback
***************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: jlysagh@hubcap.clemson.edu (james joseph lysaght)
Subject: Re: Are Saturns really "rattletraps"?
Organization: Clemson University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:22:28 GMT

wayman@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Jeffrey Wayman) writes:



>I asked my mechanic about them and he said mechanically they
>are great, but they are "rattletraps".

Well... My parents have a saturn and a Taurus and the saturn they have
is no more noisy than the Taurus. The sound of her enghine is a markedly
different tone from that of any other car I have heard but it is not any
louder or noisier though it did take a little time getting used to.
Heres a thought... test drive the car and pay careful attention to the
noise and what you think of the noise and then decide if you like it.

 
>He went on to explain
>that GM took only 3 years to engineer the car (where most cars
>take 6 years to engineer) and didn't make a real tight car.
>He says they are working the bugs out on the market.

As an engineer let me tell you, time does not directly correlate to
quality.  You can spend 20 years designing a car and it still be lousy if
your design team sucks or if you have the most innovative, creative,
skilled design team it is possible to design a good product in much less
then average time.

>correct, then 1993 would make the 7th (?) year since they
>thought up the car and a lot of the bugs would be worked 
>out.  

Would stand to reason.  I think they are a very good car for the price.
They certainly are not the best quietest car on the market, but you
would have to pay a lot more for the best.  It is an excellent vehicle
though.  I am considering one myself and I am not limited to low price.

Jim
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Are all Japanese cars built the same? (Re: Diamante going ...)
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 12:40:52 GMT

In article <1992Sep24.172846.21529@linus.mitre.org> rajiv@hilltop.mitre.org
(Rajiv Kohli) writes:
>Time has passed by but my Mitsubishi Diamante problems have not faded. ...
>They say, "I don't need a lawyer". DO I?

Say what?!  Mr. Kohli, You bet your booties that you need a lawyer.  After
those bozos jacked you around, why on earth would you heed their advice
that you "don't need" a lawyer?

>...
>Also, a month ago somebody scratched my bumper with theirs. The same dealer
>replaced it. You think they are going to relate the parking lot accident
>to the allignment now. ...

Yes, they will relate the matter to the alignment.

From the dictionary of universal truths, we read the following spelling
for "sleaze":  a-u-t-o-d-e-a-l-e-r-s-h-i-p-s.

Out of curiosity, I've often heard that Japanese cars are generally better
built than American cars; however, is this "axiom" true for _all_ Japanese
vehicles?  For example, is a Mitsubishi Mirage in the same class as a
Honda Accord?  In other words, if Mr. Kohli's case just an aberration?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                 Disclaimer:  1 + 1 = 3 | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: salil@igor.tamri.com (Salil Saxena)
Subject: Re: FWD vs. RWD, Which is best.
Organization: Toshiba America MRI Inc, S. San Francisco, CA.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 21:25:50 GMT

In article <13355@texsun.Central.Sun.COM> dbernard@thewho.Central.Sun.COM writes:
>How many new RWD automobiles are still offered? There's the huge

>GM line (Buick Roadmonster/Caprice/new Fleetwood).  Is the Crown Vic?
>The trend seems clearly toward FWD, but don't know if that's mostly
>fashion or not.

Additional RWD models still sold (please feel free to add to this list):
1.  Entire BMW line.
2.  Entire Mercedes Benz line.
3.  Entire Porsche line.
4.  Alfa Spider.

5.  Lexus LS400, SC400, SC300.
6.  Infinity Q45.
7.  Mazda 929.
8.  Mazda Miata.
9.  Mazda RX7.
10. Nissan 240SX.
11. Nissan 300ZX.
12. Toyota Supra.
13. Toyota MR2.
14. Mitsubishi Diamante ? 

15. Ford Mustang.
16. GM - Camaro/Firebird.
17. Corvette.

-- 
Salil Saxena		Gotta love those British Roadsters - '91 Lotus Elan SE
Toshiba America MRI, Inc.		Internet: salil@igor.tamri.com	
South San Francisco, CA  94080		Phone: (415) 872-2722 x2283
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Opionions expressed are mine and only mine <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: schludermann@sscvx1.ssc.gov
Subject: FOR SALE:1665 Volvo 544
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:57:57 GMT

    1965 volvo 544, white, clean, straight, rebuilt engine, new interior,
garadge kept. price $3800. Currently in Amarillo and will be moved to Dallas
in a month. The car comes with many extra body parts.
  This is my roomates car so no email please, call Hans at 214-369-3979 eves.
From: david.bonds@cutting.hou.tx.us (David Bonds) 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Tire recommendations -SHO
Date: 25 Sep 92 09:53:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Cutting Edge - Houston, TX - 713-466-1525
Reply-To: david.bonds@cutting.hou.tx.us (David Bonds) 

  >Have any of the SHO owners gone to something other than the GT+4 Eagles?

Goodyear Eagle GAs on my '89

  >snow adequately.
  >Either way, I'd like an improvement over the +4's.
  >Out of curiosity, does anyone run with non-all-seasons year-round
  >(assuming you get some snow)?

These seem to give a much better ride and less noise then the GT+4s that 
have been on other SHOs I've been in, but I think you lose just a bit in
the handling dept.  I leave them on until they wear out (they last longer
then the GT+4s too!), and with proper rotation, I haven't had that happen
yet.  The previous owner went thru 2 sets of GT+4s by 60k miles, with
the GAs, I've seen minimal wear on it since I got the car at 66k, and they 
looked "almost new" then.   I've seen little snow in Houston since I've
lived here (nearly a decade), but it does ice up occasionally, just got 
SHOwn this car a few months ago, so I haven't had it during winter months.

- Dave Bonds 
- Internet : David.Bonds@cutting.hou.tx.us
---
 . KingQWK 2.00 .6 # 145 . If it works, don't fix it! 
                                                                                          
From: denny@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Trueman Denny)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1992 19:42:39 GMT
Subject: Re: 1992 Vipers STILL getting premium prices?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: rec.autos

Celebrity Dodge is asking $199,999.00 Dealer Markup on the Two Vipers they
have in stock.  Looks nice though.  If their LH line does not sell well they
may go belly up and those who paid the inflated prices may be able to sell
at a profit.
From: synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Acura Legend upgrades
Date: 28 Sep 92 23:13:00 GMT
Organization: SynthMedia Productions Ltd -- Now Appearing Nightly With DON HO


wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:

bmaggio@dcs.bellcore.com (Bill Maggio) writes:
>I have a '91 Acura Legend Coupe and was wondering if anybody knows of any 
>performance upgrade kits for the car.

wharfie> Yeah, take it to a Ford dealer and trade ot for a SHO... :-) :-)

No wait, I thought he wanted to *upgrade* ... :-)


===============================================================================
    :: :: :: :: ::     Synth F.    synth@deepthought.unm.edu    U S E N E T   
 :: :: :: :: :: :: ::  Oberheim    synth@yenta.alb.nm.us             in color!
===============================================================================
Bad cop!  No donut!
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Acura Legend upgrades
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:12:20 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Sep25.214800.24631@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> bmaggio@dcs.bellcore.com (Bill Maggio) writes:
>I have a '91 Acura Legend Coupe and was wondering if anybody knows of any 
>performance upgrade kits for the car.

	Yeah, take it to a Ford dealer and trade ot for a SHO... 

							:-) :-)
From: hhtra@usho21.hou281.chevron.com (T.M.Haddock)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: FWD vs. RWD, Which is best.
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:32:50 GMT
Organization: Chevron

In article <Bvnsow.1q1@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Oct2.233501.17589@newsgate.sps.mot.com> mark@wdcwdc.sps.mot.com (Mark Shaw) writes:
|> >
|> >So anyone can claim RWD or FWD is better, but all they are telling me is that
|> >they either know very little about what makes cars handle or that they only
|> >know how to drive one type of design.
|> 
|> Unless, of course, they're telling you that no matter how well you
|> drive, you can't cheat the laws of physics.
|> 
|> Each wheel+tire has a certain amout of friction which it can use to
|> effect a change in the vehicle's motion. In a RWD car, the friction of
|> the rear tires is used to propel the car forward or backward, while the
|> friction of the front tires is used to effect changes in heading. In a
|> FWD car, the front tires must do BOTH jobs; thus, it's easier to exceed
|> the ability of the tire to grip the road effectively if you're
|> accelerating and steering simultaneously.
|> 
|> Why do you think there aren't any FWD Indy cars or NASCAR racers?

 But there's more to it than just that ONE reason.
 Car & Driver attempted to answer that question last year or so.
 They gave many reasons, some minor, some major.

 But, was Henry Ford and others considering the physics of FWD vs RWD
 when they first built horseless carriages or were they just trying to
 find a way to make it work.  From that begining, with 100 years of
 evolution, we have our state-of-the-art RWD.  But maybe within 20  
 years of evolution in FWD technology or AWD technology we WILL see
 FWD Indy and NASCAR racers.  AWD already dominates road rally racing
 and is making significant in-roads into Trans-Am, SCCA, etc.

 After all, how many people saw V6s running as fast or faster than
 the V8s did in NASCAR?  It's all in the evolution of technology.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: ilh@lcs.mit.edu (Lee Hetherington)
Subject: Re: downforce and cornering g's (was which car handles the best?
Reply-To: ilh@lcs.mit.edu
Organization: MIT/LCS Spoken Language Systems
	<BDD.92Sep28175131@tyrolia.cs.princeton.edu>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:32:10 GMT

Where does the myth that with no downforce a car cannot exceed 1G,
laterally or otherwise, come from?  It all depends on the coefficient
of friction of the tire/road interface.  There's no 1G limit!
--

                                Lee Hetherington
                                ilh@lcs.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech
From: louise@pravda.cc.gatech.edu (FA) 
Subject: is this a problem with the backup light switch?
Reply-To: louise@pravda.cc.gatech.edu (Louise Penberthy) 
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology 
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 16:51:34 GMT


The backup lights on my car are exhibiting strange behavior.
They don't work when the car is in Reverse.  If I move the gear
selector from Reverse to Neutral, the backup lights flash just as
the selector is moving from Reverse.  If I move the selector from
Neutral to Reverse, nothing.  I suspect the backup light switch.
Any other suggestions?

The backup light switch is part of the neutral start safety
switch.  The NSSS part functions okay; I got out my multimeter
and checked it.  But I can't get the gear selector to stay in the
only position in which the backup lights work.

If it is the backup light switch, can these things be cleaned?
I'm going to drop the transmission fluid pan and change the oil
and gasket, so I want to do whatever is necessary to the switch
at the same time.

The car is an '85 Omni, 2.2L, auto, 69K.

Thanks.

Louise Penberthy                |  "Remember:  friendship is sweeter even
College of Computing/ Georgia   |   than love, and a damn sight less
Tech/ Atlanta, GA 30332         |   chancey."
louise@pravda.cc.gatech.edu     |        -- Leonard, "Pajama Tops"
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.driving
From: tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan)
Subject: Re: Ticket for running stop sign
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:19:27 GMT


In article <92276.142714MJOHNSON@HARPERVM.BITNET> <MJOHNSON@HARPERVM.BITNET> writes:
>I have had a few tickets in Illinois, and it pays to go to court and plead
>guilty.  If you have a 'clean' record, they will make you pay the fine and
>put you on some sort of probation.  the ticket will not go on your record
>unless you get a mover in the next 6 months.  Also, I have had the  judge
>let me go with no fine ( He just made me play the fool in court. I played the
>part, was polite).
>In short, they won't penalize you more for showing up and pleading guilty.  It
>may even help.

I'm afraid this is simply not true as stated.

YES, there is a thing called "court supervision." If you have a clean
record, you can go to court, plead guilty, and REQUEST court
supervision. By no means will you get it automatically, as this post
seems to suggest. Also, the time period of the supervision is not "6
months" - it's whatever the judge decides it will be. It can be as short
as a week or two; the judge has discretion on this just as he does
with how much fine you will pay.

The statement "They won't penalize you more for showing up and pleading
guilty" is simply NOT TRUE. Sometimes your fine could go down, but sometimes
your fine could go UP. Witness the case of the dork who came into court to
plead guilty and request court supervision. He had a couple of other tickets
on his record during the prior three years, and he had already been on court
supervision once before. What do you think? Did he get court supervision? Did
he get a reduction in fine to below the level of the charge he would have
paid had he simply mailed in the fine written on the ticket? The answer is
a resounding NO in both cases. I couldn't believe the idiot even wasted
his time (not to mention the judge's). In fact, in the court cases I
witnessed, the judge made a little speech before he started processing the
speeders (4 at a time, BTW). He told everyone what court supervision is, what
can happen when you plead guilty, and that you will probably end up paying
MORE because you have both your fine and court costs to deal with.

The simple answer here is that what happens will vary from area to area,
judge to judge, and situation to situation. Going to court is not always
your best option. However, if you have a clean record, and have not had
court supervision before, it's worth going to court and requesting it.
If you're a first-time offender, you'll probably get it. Otherwise, you
might be better off just paying by mail.