HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: Fields of green (and blue, or gold and silver)
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:24:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.152759.120918@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Jennifer Geard writes:
>
>> It's been my understanding that when the field is divided into equal
>> parts the parts are considered to be side-by-side rather than charged on
>> top of each other, so they can be colour-and-metal, colour-and-colour, or
>> metal-and- metal.  Fox-Davies says "... a field can be and often is barry
>> of two colours or two metals..." and goes on to assert that there must,
>> in modern heraldry, be equal numbers of pieces (p 120 of the 1978 reprint
>> of the 1909 edn).
>
>Medieval armory: Divided fields of two colors or two metals are not common
>at any time, but they are not especially uncommon in medieval armory.  In
>general, they are less common in England and France than elsewhere, but I
>haven't seen any rigorous examination of the data so I can't say more than
>what I've learned from my own casual observation.  Multiply divided fields
>of two colors or metals are unusual, but some examples can be found in just
>about any part of Europe.  The ones I can recall are barry, paly, etc.  I
>do not recall examples of checky, lozengy, vairy, etc. of two colors or two
>metals. 
>
>The requirement that a barry (for example) use an even number of stripes is
>modern: Medieval rolls show things like "barry of 9" quite frequently.  My
>impression is that the exact number of stripes was not considered to be an
>important identifying feature, and that it varied from one rendition of the
>arms to another.

The interpretation of this requirement that I read, at least in French 
treatises, is as follows:
logically, a paly of 9, Or and Gules, would really be Or, 4 pales Gules
(e.g., Aragon). Therefore, multiple divisions should only produce even
number of parts, otherwise it is the repetition of the ordinary. In 
French, there is an exact mapping from names of ordinaries to names
of repeated divisions (pal, pale'; fasce, fasce'; bande, bande'; barre,
barre'). The name changes when the number of parts is greater than 6.

Of course, you can argue that 4 pales would produce uneven parts (the 
stripes where the field shows being thinner than the pales), whereas 
a paly of 9 would produce 9 even stripes.

As for color-color or metal-metal, when you consider divisions in three
(tiercy?) you can't avoid it.

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)
Subject: Re: Looking for.....
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 23:07:56 GMT

This probably ought to be in the FAQ posting (whenever it comes out)...

With the exception of a few areas in Eastern Europe and modern Scandinavia
(to the best of my knowledge), there's no such thing as a "family"
coat of arms.

Coats of arms were/are granted to individuals, who may or may not have
the right to pass them along to a single heraldic heir.  With few
excpetions, unless you are in direct inheritable decendance from the
original owner of a coat of arms, you're not entitled to use that
coat.  Note, however, that this only holds any legal weight in
countries which still have some type of governmental heraldic
organization (which the US does not).

Nearly all of the companies in the US that sell "family coats of arms"
are just out to get your money.  Most of the time the quality of the
research done to determine "your family's" arms is limited to finding
the first coat of arms that matches your last name.

If you're truly concerned about getting the "right" coat of arms,
don't waste your time with anyone advertising "family" coats of arms.
Find a genealogical research group.

Michael A. Chance
--
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Fields of green (and blue, or gold and silver)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:25:36 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Jennifer Geard asked:

> >Does this form a general guideline?  Does it apply to lozengy and chequey 
> >fields?  And if not, why not?

Kenneth Scott answered:

> 	Yes, Divided fields may be of two colors or two metals. And, yes,
> the argument holds for lozengy and chequey.

If you are talking about SCA heraldry, then you are misinformed: multiple
divisions of two colors or two metals are not permitted.  If you are
talking about modern or medieval heraldry, I would be very interested to
see your evidence.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: habura@lib108.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Irvine Clan Heraldry
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:47:53 GMT

Daan Sandee suggests that Cornish choughs actually fit into my first category
of Proper.

Well, yes, I suppose, but I was trying to distinguish between "things that 
use colors that aren't heraldic, so we use "proper" to allow us to blazon the
colors" and "things that use only heraldic colors, but we'd like a 
shorthand term so we don't have to blazon all those little bits explicitly".
Cornish choughs, being sable and gules, fall into category 2.

Andrea Habura
From: kpm8447@tesla.njit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Computers in Heraldry
Date: 5 Nov 92 13:52:08 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology

Are there any programs that trace family history (sort of like the ones
you see in the mall) or is there a cd-rom of names available for the pc?
-- 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Kirk Membry                              I live in a place that has no sidewalks

kpm8447@tesla.njit.edu                                    kpm8447@teak.njit.edu
kmembry@andromeda.rutgers.edu                             kpm8447@maple.njit.edu
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Fields of green (and blue, or gold and silver)
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:06:54 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

>The requirement that a barry (for example) use an even number of stripes is
>modern: Medieval rolls show things like "barry of 9" quite frequently.  My
>impression is that the exact number of stripes was not considered to be an
>important identifying feature, and that it varied from one rendition of the
>arms to another.

The theory behind the requirement is that "barry of 9" is indistingusiable
from "4 bars". And "barry of <even number> <colour> and <colour>" is
acceptable whereas "on a field <colour> X bars <colour>" is not.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: What's encimee?
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 19:16:44 GMT

In article <1e0u0cINN8ep@agate.berkeley.edu> dgreen@thor (David Greenebaum) writes:
>
>A few weeks ago, I was paging through an ordinary (actually I
>think it was an SCA ordinary) and ran across a blazon containing
>a chevron encimee.  I've looked in every heraldry manual I can think
>of, and a few I didn't know existed until I saw them on the library
>shelf, and I CANNOT find any definition for encimee.  This bugs
>me.  Does anyone know what this means? Or is it perhaps an SCA'ish
>error?

I do not know the term encimee. However, in French heraldry, a
chevron ecime' is a chevron whose triangular top extremity has
been cut off. This might explain. An example is the arms of 
La Rochefoucauld, one of the oldest families in France. Again,
pardon my ineptitude as I translate the blazon: fessy (?) of 8
Argent and Azure, with 3 chevrons Gules, the top one ecime.

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Re: Looking for.....
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:28:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.230756.11316@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance) writes:
>This probably ought to be in the FAQ posting (whenever it comes out)...
>
>With the exception of a few areas in Eastern Europe and modern Scandinavia
>(to the best of my knowledge), there's no such thing as a "family"
>coat of arms.

True.  But it is still fun! :)

>
>Coats of arms were/are granted to individuals, who may or may not have
>the right to pass them along to a single heraldic heir.  With few
>excpetions, unless you are in direct inheritable decendance from the
>original owner of a coat of arms, you're not entitled to use that
>coat.  Note, however, that this only holds any legal weight in
>countries which still have some type of governmental heraldic
>organization (which the US does not).

But I believe in Scottish Clans, one has the 'right' to wear the Tartan.
Yes?

>
>Nearly all of the companies in the US that sell "family coats of arms"
>are just out to get your money.  Most of the time the quality of the
>research done to determine "your family's" arms is limited to finding
>the first coat of arms that matches your last name.

Or scrounge around yourself to find your 'roots.'  You'd be amazed at what
you find.  (

>
>If you're truly concerned about getting the "right" coat of arms,
>don't waste your time with anyone advertising "family" coats of arms.
>Find a genealogical research group.

True.  But, you might want to try it yourself, as it can be darn fun -
it is something that everyone in the family can do too.  AND you get
a fairly accurate family history.  One would be amazed at how quickly things 
come together once you start.  

>Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
			    ^^^^^^^^^

	Cool!  Are you native? (If so what High School did you go to! :) :) :) )

-- 
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+ ^  ^  ^
| Brent L. Irvine         |  "Love is blind ... and stupid." | {\{|}/} CLAN
| irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu |                      -M.P.       |  {{|}} IRVINE
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+  o/|\o OF DRUM
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
	<1992Nov12.143903.10269@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 19:33:35 GMT

Francois writeth:
>Alison writeth:
   >The flag you mention [Gules, a double headed eagle sable]
   >is very likely NOT the Byzantine flag. (It is, however,
   >the flag of the modern country of Albania.) The Byzantine flags I've seen
   >have a cross between four objects that look like capital B's. (They are 
   >probably firesteels.)
  
   Actually, they are B's, and stand for the Greek phrase: "basileus basileuoon
   basileuoon basileuontoon" = king of kings ruling over the rulers. (I
   transcribe
   omega with "oo").
   I am not saying they are not firesteels, or were not also construed as
   such: and I seem to remember that the emblems on the Golden Fleece chain 
   were an allusion to Byzantium.
   As I recall, the flag is Gules, a cross and 4 B's Or.

I am led to believe that this is the arms of the Paleologue dynasty, the
last to rule the Byzantine Empire.  I'm not certain, however.

The eagle sable, possibly double-headed, I've often seen attributed in
origin to the Holy Roman Empire, which used Or, an eagle sable.  A number
of central and eastern European countries use the motif (Prussia, Russia,
Austria, among others.)

This information came from an armorial I've been collecting out of Burke's
Noble Families of the World.  Is anybody interested, and can anybody help
with verifying the more confused references and dating any of it?  (I'll
forward this to SCAHRLDS, come to think of it.)

				----Simon
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Irvine Clan Heraldry
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:22:08 GMT

Hello!
	I have a few questions:

1.  How can I properly describe the coat of arms for the Irvine Clan?
	In non-heraldic terms it is:

		A white field, with a wide red stripe horizontally in the middle
		with clusters of Holly (2 equally spaced apart above the red, 
		and one centered below the red stripe).

2.  If there are any persons of Clan Irvine on the net, I can get access to 
	a detailed Clan history published around 1890 (details who's who in the
	clan pre-1890, relations with Douglas, Stewart (and why we can 
	'rightfully' wear either tartan, but have none of our own, yet are a
	'real' clan and not a sept.)  Its kind of old, but if there is anyone
	that doesn't know, I may be able to look it up over the Holidays.
	If anyone knows of a more up-to-date family history, I would like to
	know, and where I can find it...


-- 
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+ ^  ^  ^
| Brent L. Irvine         |  "Love is blind ... and stupid." | {\{|}/} CLAN
| irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu |                      -M.P.       |  {{|}} IRVINE
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+  o/|\o OF DRUM
From: dgreen@thor (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: What's encimee?
Date: 13 Nov 92 19:00:28 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.berkeley.edu

Hello all!

A few weeks ago, I was paging through an ordinary (actually I
think it was an SCA ordinary) and ran across a blazon containing
a chevron encimee.  I've looked in every heraldry manual I can think
of, and a few I didn't know existed until I saw them on the library
shelf, and I CANNOT find any definition for encimee.  This bugs
me.  Does anyone know what this means? Or is it perhaps an SCA'ish
error?

---------------------
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry,rec.org.sca
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: Fields of green (and blue, or gold and silver)
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:40:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.230442.113057@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>
>What I may not have conveyed clearly is that medieval rolls of arms not
>only depict "barry of nine", but they also blazon it that way.
>
>Hans replied (and someone else said similarly): 
>
>> The theory behind the requirement is that "barry of 9" is
>> indistingusiable from "4 bars". And "barry of <even number> <colour> and
>> <colour>" is acceptable whereas "on a field <colour> X bars <colour>" is
>> not.
>
>Are these two fields in fact indistiguishable?  Modern heralds assure us
>that they are.  Medieval heralds, by and large, seem to have used the two
>blazons interchangably to describe the same person's arms.  
So modern heralds and medieval heralds agree, and, according to you, modern
heralds wanting uniqueness of the blazon, outlawed the alternate form of
blazoning.

I mentioned that, arguably, barry of 9 and 4 bars are not the same. Take
1 bar: this will not divide the field in 3 even stripes, as the bar is 
often represented as thicker than 1/3d (likewise for pal, fesse, etc).
Similarly, n bars will divide the field in alternates of n thick stripes
(the bars) and n+1 thin stripes (showing the field behind).

>the distinction was not sufficient to differentiate armigers.  Medieval
>heralds accepted (in this as in many cases) that there were two correct
>blazons and perhaps even two correct emblazons of the same arms; modern
>heralds insist on a distinction between the two, and then label one of them
>as incorrect.  Seems pretty pointless to me.
It is probably a result of the fact that heraldry ceased to be a practical,
useful stock of knowledge, and became, as you say, an intellectual game.
As early as the 17th century, you can observe pedantry, excessive refinement,
arguments over pointless distinctions, wealth of obtuse vocabulary, etc, as
heraldry was sliding into obsolescence.

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: staub_jon@ccsua.ctstateu.edu
Subject: Byzantine & Albanian Flags
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:29:03 GMT

The flag mentioned is *not* the flag of the modern country of Albania unless it
has a voided gold star above the eagles' heads.

The flag with the cross between the for B-like things sound similar to a
Serbian flag I've see. Stay in touch, I'll check it out and get back. Same for
the flag of Byzantium. The best place to check out *any* flag information is
the Flag Research Center in Winchester, Mass. Dr. Whitney Smith, the world's
leading vexillologist, runs it.

Joe
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Fields of green (and blue, or gold and silver)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:04:42 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

I wrote:

> The requirement that a barry (for example) use an even number of stripes
> is modern: Medieval rolls show things like "barry of 9" quite frequently.
> My impression is that the exact number of stripes was not considered to
> be an important identifying feature, and that it varied from one
> rendition of the arms to another.

What I may not have conveyed clearly is that medieval rolls of arms not
only depict "barry of nine", but they also blazon it that way.

Hans replied (and someone else said similarly): 

> The theory behind the requirement is that "barry of 9" is
> indistingusiable from "4 bars". And "barry of <even number> <colour> and
> <colour>" is acceptable whereas "on a field <colour> X bars <colour>" is
> not.

Are these two fields in fact indistiguishable?  Modern heralds assure us
that they are.  Medieval heralds, by and large, seem to have used the two
blazons interchangably to describe the same person's arms.  This is mixed
evidence: Perhaps different heralds preferred different blazons.  Perhaps
they were blazoning different renditions of the same device.  Perhaps they
considered the two blazons to be identical.  In any case, it is clear that
the distinction was not sufficient to differentiate armigers.  Medieval
heralds accepted (in this as in many cases) that there were two correct
blazons and perhaps even two correct emblazons of the same arms; modern
heralds insist on a distinction between the two, and then label one of them
as incorrect.  Seems pretty pointless to me.

Modern heraldry is a game: You learn the rules and then you play by them.
Medieval heraldry developed as a descriptive science, trying to describe
what already existed.  Over the centuries, heralds gained enough of a lock
on their field to enable them to force the facts to match their rules,
instead of having to refine their rules to better describe the facts.  The
conflict between these two approaches is a constant problem in the SCA's
College of Arms, where it emerges as the conflict between those who want
the SCA to use "good heraldic style" and those who feel that any medieval
evidence should be accepted as the basis of SCA heraldic usage.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: habura@vccnorthb.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Irvine Clan Heraldry
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 13:38:44 GMT

Iain asks about "proper".

There are actually two kinds of "proper". The first is as you describe: an
object in its natural colors. A deer proper is brown, for example.

The second type of proper means "in specifically defined tinctures". A 
rose proper isn't pinkish, like a "real" rose; it's gules, barbed (sepaled)
vert, and seeded Or. A Cornish chough proper has a black body, red beak and
red legs. A sword proper is argent hilted Or. All use only heraldic tinctures,
but in a set pattern. 

Andrea Habura
Xref: sparky rec.heraldry:347 rec.org.sca:15715
From: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry,rec.org.sca
Subject: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Date: 12 Nov 1992 11:02:59 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In the Time-Life series Great Ages of Man, in their book covering
Byzantium, there was a picture of a monastery in Greece flying what they
said was the Byzantine flag.  As nearly as I could figure out what it was
they were flying, it was: 
Gules, a two-headed eagle displayed sable.
 
Was that the right Byzantine flag, and was there any such thing as
Byzantine heraldry?  Among other things, I'm working on a GURPS game book
about Byzantium.  

Another question:  In SCA heraldry, can charges be "gerattie" (ie
scattered, but in a pattern with a definite number of them, instead of
"semy")?
-- 
It is caffeine alone that sets my mind in motion.  It is through beans of
java that thoughts acquire speed, that hands acquire shakes, that shakes
become a warning...I am...IN CONTROL...OF MY ADDICTION!
---From the Minicon Graffiti Wall, 1989(?)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney)
Subject: Japanese Heraldry
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:13:38 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Windows/DOS Users Ed Group

I would be interested in learning more about Japanese
heraldry. Does anyone have a good English-language source
that I can be pointed to?

Aragato.

-- 
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
	"Well, I'm a little muddled." -- Glinda
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez)
Subject: FAQ proposal
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:19:07 GMT

After much delay, I am going to work on the FAQ.

	The FAQ will include

	What is heraldry?
	What is a coat of arms?
	Can I have a coat of arms?
	How do I find my family's coat?
	Where can I find information on heraldry?
	What books give an introduction to heraldry?
	What is the history o heraldry?

  I would like to make a seperate lesson teaching the basics of heraldry for
people who are interested in actually learning heraldic terminology.  This
seems too long for an FAQ, and so I thought it would be best to make it
seperate.  (I would appreciate if someone who does ASCII graphics would be 
willing to "illustrate" the lesson.)

  I would be delighted to hear any comments or suggestions.