HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bafei@mvax.cc.conncoll.edu (We'll Be Back)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Frontrubs
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:31:42 GMT
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

On the subject of frontrubs, I thought I might share some experiences:

I have done "frontrubs", and had them done to me.  I am keenly aware of the
uncomfortability that nudity causes masagees and how that level of
uncomfortability can be raised through touch.  I think one of the keys is to
act totally professional and unaroused, at least on the exterior.  What you 
feel inside is not important.  When giving the massage you are concentrating
on relaxing your partner, not on fulfulling your sexual fantasies.

That said, I have massaged many women's breast in a "non-sexual" manner, but
not before getting her permission and assuring her level of comfort.  I was
told of a massage of the female genitals that involved massage of the vaginalk
walls which have quite a bit of muscle and few nerve ending, although I have 
never tried it in a general massage.  I work my stroking and rubbing into the
pubic area if the masagee is comfortable with that, and I have found that
direct circular pressure to the perineum can feel very good for most men
and women.  On the other hand I have not been asked for direct genital
contact (i.e. below the pubic hair).

I once had a female friend give me a penile massage as part of a full body 
massage and found it both pleasurable and non-sexual and would recommend
it.  However, I'm not sure what would be an equivalent experience for a 
woman.  As for the woman who ends her massages with a quick cupping of
the scrtum and a stroke of the penis, I have two questions:

1.  What is the point.  The way you describe it, there doesn't seem to
be enough "done" to accomplish anything, therapeutic or otherwise.  Can
you explain further?

2. Do you ask your male partners about this before doing it, and do you do it
to male partners with whom you have no sexual relationship?

I'm not saying that genital massage can't occur in a non-sexual context, nor
do I see it as "unprofessional" given that most of us give and receive
massage from friends and intimates (not always sexual intimates) versus
being massaged by pros.  That allows a little more freedom and trust I think.

Ultimately, I think that frontrubs can be nice, but ask first about the limits
that the massagee wants set, and then respect them.  In this society, nudity
is such a taboo that many recipients are tense enough without having to worry
if the massager is going to make a dive at their crotch or chest.

Responses of an intelligent nature are welcome.  Flames to /dev/null

Regards,

Brett
From: bafei@mvax.cc.conncoll.edu (We'll Be Back)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Massage exhange
Date: 9 Nov 1992 18:34:28 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

name: Brett
location: Southeastern Connecticut
gender: Male
Gender to exchange with: Prefer females.
specialty: all sorts of massage ranging from back rubs to full body massage.  I
have been doing them for nearly 6 years, I respect boundries, and I enjoy giving
as much as I enjoy receiving.

If interested, please send e-mail to bafei@mvax.cc.conncoll.edu

Regards,

Brett
From: C09615DK@wuvmd.wustl.edu
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: Preferred Gender
Date: 13 Nov 92 01:33:16 GMT
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis
To:           NETNEWS@WUVMD

>
>In article <1992Nov10.194352.27714@mtu.edu>, mtlatour@next11 (MATTHEW T.
>LATOURETTE) says:
>
>In article <ARCHER.410.721405681@utkvm1.utk.edu> ARCHER@utkvm1.utk.edu (T.
>Archer) writes about what ST201434@brownvm.brown.edu (jude) wrote.
>
>(numerous lines deleted to save bandwidth)
>
>> >It seems that most of the male posters concerning the backrub exchange
>idea
>> >have listed 'female' as the preferred gender to exchange with.  Could
>any of
>> >you venture possible reasoning for this?
>..
>> Here in America, we are uptight.  Cross-gender contact is okay, but
>tends to
>> be sexually charged.  Same-gender contact is a no-no, esp. among males.
>I
>> like to feel that I am as open-minded as one can be, as a male with a
>> southeastern up-bringing.  I am not comfortable coming into physical
>contact
>> with other males, and I cannot relax properly.  It's not something that
>I am
>> particularly proud of, but there it is.  I suspect that others are the
>same
>> way.
>
>(.sig deleted)
>
>You hit the nail on the head. Well, almost. I think that most males are

I think it's the opposite--most males who would get a massage from another male
would prefer to get one from somebody they DON'T know (although the 'trust'
thing is obviously necessary) VERY well, mainly because of the 'image'
associated with getting a massage from a male one knows very well as a friend.
I know this is the case for me, at least, and to better explain, I'll use an
example--I would go to a professional masseur (male?) to get a massage, prefer-
ably one with a good reputation, rather than go to a male friend of mine to get
a massage... mainly it's the opinion that I wouldn't want in my own any more
association with a male other than either 'friend' or 'professional'.
For me, it would be crossing the boundaries of both to have a male friend (not
to say that I couldn't get along with a masseur) give me a massage.

>comfortable with exchanging backrubs with male friends that they know well
>and trust. However, for a backrub exchange via net-people they don't have
>that closeness and trust that comes from a long-time friendship. Just
>thought I'd put in my $.02
>
[.sig deleted]

Just my 2 cents :)--Dan K
From: clj2@po.CWRU.Edu (Cynthia L. Jorden)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Date: 8 Nov 92 00:44:16 GMT
Reply-To: clj2@po.CWRU.Edu (Cynthia L. Jorden)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, werner@world.std.com (Craig Werner) says:

>arnett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Arnett) writes:
>
>>Okay, I'd like to know what everybody thinks of massaging the breasts
>>during a (non-erotic!) full body massage.
> 
> 
>Many female therapists to whom I have gone also avoid my breasts.  (I am, 
>as my name suggests, mail.)  *Every* profesional therapist, of course, 
>avoids genital massage, taking special care to drape the reproductive area.

I have to agree with the statement made earlier about avoidence.  It 
actually heightens the sexual tension.  

  On the Breast issue...In a front rub, I expect my breasts to be
massaged.  I don't find it erotic unless my SO wants it to be.  The 
one exception is the nipples.  If you use a firm but gentle pressure
on the base, I mean the breast tissue itself..not the muscles underneath, 
it feels good.  There are two pieces of flesh that hang all day.  When
we excercise, no matter what we wear, they bounce to some extent.  Like 
any other muscle that is excercised, they get sore.  Please ask your 
massagee if it is going to increase their arousal, or nervous state, but 
please, please do not ignore them.  

  On the general sexual organs... (I only have experiece with the male)If
 you save them until last, when the entire body is relaxed, well oiled 
hands genly cup the balls, then one firm gentle stroke on the penis, and 
I end the massage.  Thats usually not enough to arouse them if they are
totally relaxed, and the massage doesn't feel incomplete because a section
was left out.
-- 
What is Life?		What is Love?   	What is Reality?

Who are you?		  Who am I? 	      Is this one big dream?
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
From: werner@world.std.com (Craig Werner)
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 21:30:49 GMT

chorwit1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Cathy Horwitz) writes:

>It really bumms me out that people can rarely separate touch from sex.  A
>platonic massage is really bonding, and sensual in a way that is ruined if
>there is sexual tension involved.
 
Right you are, Cathy.  I have been to many massage therapists, both male 
and female.  In no case has sex even been a remote possibility or desire, 
and, under other conditions, I'm far from unmotivated.  :-)  I view massage 
as an open and friendly exchange between two honest human beings.  During 
the massages I receive, there is a candid give-and-take of conversation and 
friendship that is usually entirely unforced.  The therapist and I both 
know and acquiesce to boundaries, and that makes us both very comfortable.
 
Craig Werner <cwerner@nyx.cs.du.edu>

Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
From: werner@world.std.com (Craig Werner)
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Keywords: breast massage
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:43:11 GMT

mikej@access.digex.com (Mike Jacobs) writes:
 
>in my massage class, it was quite explicitly stated that 'sensitive' areas,
>which included genital areas, and anywhere else where the person
>was sensitive (for instance, the buttocks or the stomach may also
>contain a lot of energy) should be avoided.
 
This is very much what I have also heard, Mike.
 
I have been massaged by many therapists, and I'd say a good 1/4 of themoided buttocks and abdominal massage.  At the expense 
of a broad generalizatioy California therapists are less prudish 
than those on the East Coast.  All my massages have been non-erotic.
 
Craig Werner <werner@world.std.com>

Organization: Sophomore, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:23:37 -0500 
From: James Arthur Burtoft <jbbe+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: abdomem(sp?) massage
 <ARCHER.410.721405681@utkvm1.utk.edu>
	<92315.142813KMN104@psuvm.psu.edu>

   I saw a note in one of the previous posts on frontrubs that the
stomach was often off limits.  In shiatsu, the stomach (hara) is one of
the main massage areas, and is often used for diagnosis as well.  You
are supposed to be able to feel what is wrong by detecting disturbances
in the chi in certain areas of the stomach that map to certain meridians.
    Massages to the stomach are also encouraged as way to aid the
digestional tract.  By massaging it you loosen up any toxins that may be
lodged in the small intestines especially, but really anywhere.  After
giving a hara massage, the recipient may have 'bowel troubles' for a day
as all the toxins are being 'purged', but supposedly they will be a
better, more healthier digester for it.
    Some people are ticklish in the stomach, and as with any ticklish
area, it is better avoided because of the tension caused than it will
benefit by the tension relieved in rubbing it.  Unless you really want
to spend some time working with someone on being less ticklish, which I
have actually heard some success stories in.

                Cheerio
                              Jim
  
Love is not blind, just stupid--Me
Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days,
nor twenty days;  But even a whole month, until it come out at your
nostrils...
                                                                        
                   Numbers 11:19-20
From: werner@world.std.com (Craig Werner)
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 18:12:31 GMT

arnett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Arnett) writes:

>Okay, I'd like to know what everybody thinks of massaging the breasts
>during a (non-erotic!) full body massage.
 
Bill, the therapists I know say they do not usually massage women's 
breasts.  I did speak with one female therapist in Toronto who said that 
she massages women's breasts only if the women are pregnant and give 
permission.  Evidently, massage can decrease breast discomfort under these 
circumstances.
 
Many female therapists to whom I have gone also avoid my breasts.  (I am, 
as my name suggests, mail.)  *Every* profesional therapist, of course, 
avoids genital massage, taking special care to drape the reproductive area.
 
Craig Werner <werner@world.std.com>

Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
From: ARCHER@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: Preferred Gender
Date: 10 Nov 92 14:28:01 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee

In article <1dociaINN3ck@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> ST201434@brownvm.brown.edu (jude) writes:
>Path: utkux1.utk.edu!utkcs2!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!news.Brown.EDU!news.Brown.EDU!news
>From: ST201434@brownvm.brown.edu (jude)
>Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
>Subject: Preferred Gender
>Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:13:24 EST
>Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
>Lines: 23
>Message-ID: <1dociaINN3ck@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
>News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta
>Maybe this is nothing, but then again, maybe not:
>
>It seems that most of the male posters concerning the backrub exchange idea
>have listed 'female' as the preferred gender to exchange with.  Could any of
>you venture possible reasoning for this?
>
>I, for one, have noticed that with more novice massagers, a male is often
>a better choice since their hands are generally stronger.  A problem I've had
>with my female friends is that they find it difficult to apply enough pressure.
>I think one of the reasons I've always been able to give a good massage is
>having strong hands. ('piano-fingers', too, which seems to help.)
>
>PLEASE don't take any statement above as sexist.  I'm just wondering if the
>males preferring females is a sign of sexism.  Why the preference?
>
Here in America, we are uptight.  Cross-gender contact is okay, but tends to 
be sexually charged.  Same-gender contact is a no-no, esp. among males.  I 
like to feel that I am as open-minded as one can be, as a male with a 
southeastern up-bringing.  I am not comfortable coming into physical contact 
with other males, and I cannot relax properly.  It's not something that I am 
particularly proud of, but there it is.  I suspect that others are the same 
way.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: dc5p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel Calle)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:24:24 GMT
	<1992Nov5.003200.15022@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Quoting a.stranger@ultb.isc.rit.edu======
In article <emc.720913944@tomalak> emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:
>In <LPQSBCHG@cc.swarthmore.edu> chorwit1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Cathy Horwitz) wri
tes:
>
>>learn to control your hormones.  When you want to get excited and tense
>>that's fine, but you should also be able to touch someones breast without
>>thinking of sex
>
>You've obviously never been a sexually charged male  :-)
 
				i have . i still agree with Cathy .
=========================================

I have as well.  And I doubt that I would be able to massage a woman's
breasts without becoming aroused but it is easy not to act on it. 
Arousal like that is what you make of it, you can either become tense
and excited and switch your hand motion from massaging to erotic or you
can just let it give you a warm feeling inside while you continue as
before.

Also, when giving a "FRONT rub" (if you mean breasts say breasts!) you
should be massaging the FRONT.  Meaning, front of the body.  Front of
the legs, abdomen, chest, face, arms, etc.  Certainly you cover the
breasts but you don't have to concentrate on them...or even if you do
there is a difference between massage to stimulate and massage to relax.

If you have to wonder how it would be done, think about massaging a man,
'cept you have to be more gentle in that area.

Dan

Freshman at Carnegie Mellon University, CIT
Internet addresses: DanMan@cmu.edu, dc5p+@andrew.cmu.edu, calle96@sbc.edu
Phone: (412) 268-4318

	"Many persons have destroyed themselves through
	 the inability to stop thinking."
         -H.E. Butler, _Practical Methods to Ensure Success_, 1893
From: eoin@xocolatl.com (John F. Snyder)
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:14:56 GMT
Reply-To: eoin@xocolatl.com
Organization: Amethyst Systems, Fremont, CA

arnett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Arnett) writes:

-> Two or three people have already said that they do include the breasts
-> as part of a massage but they didn't give any methods.  I'd like to read
-> more discussion on this since the books don't like to talk about it.
-> 
-> Incidentally, my "ex" did like the stroke described by Downing, but I
-> haven't tried it on anyone else yet---I would want to be really sure
-> that the woman was *totally* comfortable with the idea.
-> 
-> Bill.
-> 
-> PS: let me repeat, I'm interested in including breasts in a NON-sexual
-> massage.  <I don't want there to be any doubts, because I want some
-> serious replies.>

And a serious reply you shall get.

I've found Dowing's stroke to be very good for a general relaxation
massage.  However, it is only so-so if you are working on a extremely 
tight or knotted muscle under the breast.  

Remember the breasts are sensitive and *delicate* tissue.  Strokes or
pressure that activity feel good and work wonders on other parts of
the body, can cause pain and actually damage the breasts.  

Communicate with your subject.  Tell her what you are doing and why
(even if you hav'nt spoken during the session.)   Ask her to tell
you if what you are doing is painful or if the pressure is becoming
to great.

Depending on the size and firmness of the breast.  You may be able to
work directly through it or you may have to push it out of the way and
work from the sides.

Long firm strokes are pretty useless because you loose pressure
contact with the muscle as your hands ride over the breast.  Sometimes
long strokes down either side of the breast will encourage the center
of the muscle to relax in "sympathy."  

I use finger pressure  and "walk" down the length of the muscles. 
Gently pushing through or aside the tissue till I meet the muscle. 
Then I apply 1/4 normal pressure.  Check with your subject at this
point to see how it feels.  If all is ok, increase pressure to about
1/2 normal.  I have never raised past 3/4, as I usually still feel
breast tissue between my fingers and the muscles.

   \|/  Eoin   eoin@xocolatl.com   *
    *  ------  GEnie: J.SNYDER18  \|/


 eoin@xocolatl.com  |      Practice Random Kindness   /~~~~~~~~~~~~~\  /
 GEnie: J.Snyder18  |  *             and             <  D A R W I N  >< 
 CI$:   70313,3111  | \|/  Senseless Acts of Beauty   \_____________/  \
 Prodigy:  NOT!!!!  |           PGP 2.0 User            _l _l _l _l 
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
From: mtlatour@next11 (MATTHEW T. LATOURETTE)
Subject: Re: Preferred Gender
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:43:52 GMT

In article <ARCHER.410.721405681@utkvm1.utk.edu> ARCHER@utkvm1.utk.edu (T.  
Archer) writes about what ST201434@brownvm.brown.edu (jude) wrote.

(numerous lines deleted to save bandwidth)

> >It seems that most of the male posters concerning the backrub exchange  
idea
> >have listed 'female' as the preferred gender to exchange with.  Could  
any of
> >you venture possible reasoning for this?
..
> Here in America, we are uptight.  Cross-gender contact is okay, but  
tends to 
> be sexually charged.  Same-gender contact is a no-no, esp. among males.   
I 
> like to feel that I am as open-minded as one can be, as a male with a 
> southeastern up-bringing.  I am not comfortable coming into physical  
contact 
> with other males, and I cannot relax properly.  It's not something that  
I am 
> particularly proud of, but there it is.  I suspect that others are the  
same 
> way.

(.sig deleted)

You hit the nail on the head. Well, almost. I think that most males are  
comfortable with exchanging backrubs with male friends that they know well  
and trust. However, for a backrub exchange via net-people they don't have  
that closeness and trust that comes from a long-time friendship. Just  
thought I'd put in my $.02

---
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Il faut cultiver notre jardin." - Voltaire  | Matt Latourette
                                             | mtlatour@mathlab.mtu.edu
"Ah! don't say that you agree with me.       | NeXT mail welcome
When people agree with me I always feel      |     Don't blame MTU, I
that I must be wrong." - Oscar Wilde         |    said it, they didn't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
From: mikej@access.digex.com (Mike Jacobs)
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Keywords: breast massage
Organization: Mike's House of Fun
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 10:31:21 GMT

In article <1ddkfsINNd38@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca> arnett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Arnett) writes:
>I haven't yet taken any massage courses, but I have read several books
>and watched several instructional videos.  All of them instructed
>that when massaging a woman's chest, the breasts should be avoided.

in my massage class, it was quite explicitly stated that 'sensitive' areas,
which included genital areas, and anywhere else where the person
was sensitive (for instance, the buttocks or the stomach may also
contain a lot of energy) should be avoided.

>The only exception is George Downing's book which states:
>   "Professional masseurs usually do not massgae a woman's breasts.
>    Most women I know consider this both prudish and condecending. If

Well, I congratulate Mr. Downing on having such open minded friends, but
in our western culture world, it is inappropiate excect, perhaps, with
one's partner or where there is high level of trust.

>Is Downing's recommendation the only one?  Does every book other than
>Downing's avoid the topic?

I have a book with a different stroke described.  Although this book
was intended for erotic massage, everything described in it is valid
massage techniques. (the book is _Erotic Partner Massage_ by
Christine Unseld-Baumanns.
 
It describes a figure-8 stroke.  (reverse for left-handedness)
start with right hand outstretched at the base of the left breast
and move it across to the top of the right breast.  Glide hand
to side of the breast.  Change hands without breaking the
flow of the stroke.  Move left hand under the right breast and
hold as much of the breast as the hollow of the hand will allow.
move you left hand accross both breasts up to upper area of the
left breast until your hand is at the side of the breast.
then the right hand takes over and repeat the above.

now don't misinterpret my early statements; I'm no prude.  (I seriously
doubt a 'prude' would be at all involved in massage.)  I would often
massage the breasts of my girlfriend (now ex).  When intended as a
muscle relaxation massage, there was no sexual arousal; when varied
to be sexual, it is very effective.

in the other responses I've been reading, there is a lot of openness
as there tends to be in the people who inhabit out electronic world, 
but in the real world, it is a strict no-no.

Mike J

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Mike Jacobs                |  Look!  A tree!  -- unknown  |
mikej@access.digex.com     |                              |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.backrubs
From: cms2839@ultb.isc.rit.edu (a.stranger)
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Originator: cms2839@ultb
Organization: Minimalist Music for Hyperactive Children (MMHC)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 00:32:00 GMT

In article <emc.720913944@tomalak> emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:
>In <LPQSBCHG@cc.swarthmore.edu> chorwit1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Cathy Horwitz) writes:
>
>>learn to control your hormones.  When you want to get excited and tense
>>that's fine, but you should also be able to touch someones breast without
>>thinking of sex
>
>You've obviously never been a sexually charged male  :-)

				i have . i still agree with Cathy .

-- 
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       @ a.stranger - CMS2839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu - PGP key on req. @
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