HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kupstas@tlab4.cs.unc.edu (Eileen Kupstas)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Tents (zipper failure)
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:52:39 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

In article <1992Sep10.034720.10023@news.media.mit.edu> geek@media.mit.edu (Chris Schmandt) writes:
.............
>I dunno.  I own an older 2 person and newer 4 person (which we got
>when our kid was born).  They are nice inexpensive tents, generally
>fairly dry if you use a groundcloth *well placed*, but each tent has
>experienced failure of the bottom horizontal zipper.  We replaced the
>first one ourselves, and chalked it up to being a fluke.  The 4
>person tent has been slept in less than 50 nights, only once on a
>beach, and generally well cared for, so I am disappointed at the
>zipper failure that seems to be a pattern.  I suspect it will cost
>more than the tent is worth to have it replaced.
>
>I guess I should complain to Timberline.  Anyone know where they 
>are located?

Not exactly on the point, but related:

 We have an LL Bean, made by Timberline, Eureka! model 2 person.
It has been out on somewhere near 250 nights
over the last five years (okay, count backwards to date the tent
...). We just experienced massive zipper failure on both the 
horizontal and vertical-ish zipper. Good thing it didn't rain
that night. We called LL Bean to get a price on fixing it, since
we assumed it would cost a bundle and wouldn't be worth it.
Well, surprise! They said "pack it up, send it back. 
We'll repair or replace." ??!!!? Shock ensued. We're waiting
until it returns to see if we do indeed get billed, but there
was no indication of this in the conversation. 

So, I would suggest calling Timberline and checking about the
repair policy.  I realize that LL Bean is a real *service*
kind of place, but Timberline has to have some kind of policy.
[If not, consider the LL Bean label -- same tent, just 
different logo on door.]

Standard disclaimer: I am not affiliated with LL Bean, etc.
and YMMV


Eileen  
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 15:51:16 GMT

Read:
	Edward Abbey
	Free Speech: The Cowboy and His Cow
	Univ. of Mont. 1985 Commencement address
	in
	One Live at A Time Please

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.boats.paddle
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Floating through a forest fire
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:38:16 GMT

[Cross-posted.  Follow-ups to rec.backcountry, probably.]

I recently came back from a river trip down the Main Fork of the Salmon
River, in Idaho.  For those of you who have been following the news,
that area has experienced some enormous forest fires during the past
several weeks.  I can verify those news reports!

About the time we hit Fivemile Bar (Buckskin Bill's), the air started
to get somewhat smoky.  This only worsened;  by the confluence with
the South Fork, visibility was horrible.  (We joked that the river
should be renamed the "Smoked Salmon.")  As we passed the historic
Bemis and Shepp ranches, we saw firefighters setting backfires to 
protect these places.  A little further on, we passed through the wild
fires;  helicopters were scooping buckets of water from the river and
releasing the water on the fires.  

Truly a unique experience.  To me, the words "forest fire" had always
implied a huge mass of flames, the whole hillside on fire.  But what
we saw was the more common type of forest fire:  dots of flame here
and there, whooshing up individual trees or across ridges when the 
wind gusted, spitting out embers which start their own fires in another
spot.  No single fire seemed like a big deal -- but there were so many!

The day that we floated through the worst of it, we did many more
miles than we'd intended, trying to get out of the smoke and to find
a safe campsite.  I was tired and making mistakes.  We finally found
a campsite that had already been burned through :-) with just one 
stump still flaming -- we doused that one immediately with our bail 
buckets.  The smoke was still bad, but actually lifted for the evening
as the wind blew upcanyon.  We could see fires on the hillside across
the side canyon we were camped at, and an orange glow indicated a
large fire behind the ridge on the other side of the river.  As we
watched, the wind apparently encouraged it, because for a while it
looked like a volcano was behind that ridge!  

During the night, the wind quit, and the smoke settled in again.  We
awoke coughing and teary-eyed;  a layer of ash had settled over our
entire camp.  But it had been a good decision to camp there, as it turned
out that there were no camps for quite some distance, and a few rapids
that would have been less pleasant for tired boaters at dusk.

Forest fires are awesomely impressive and destructive.  Our next camp
had been burned through a few days previously.  Some of the snags were
just charcoal skeletons.  We left the river (by a road that had been
closed due to the fires until just the previous day!) and felt that
we were privileged to have seen the fires, and lucky to have been
untouched by them.

-- 
/\                Ilana Stern DoD#009  ilana@ncar.ucar.edu 
  \_][ <--NCAR       Colorado...is totally rectangular.
      \_Boulder______________________________________________________Kansas__
From: holms@gtephx.UUCP (Steve Holm)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: south rim treks to phantom ranch
Summary: no water on the kaibab
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:16:19 GMT
Organization: AG Communication Systems

In article <1992Sep7.194723.24808@wuecl.wustl.edu>, dek2@cec1.wustl.edu (Dean E Kassmann) writes:
> The hike you are planning on doing is a nice one.  I did it last May after
> comming out of the Wind River Range.  The hike is a little over 17 miles with
This sounds long to me. Maybe this is milage for S. Kaibab/Phantom Ranch/Bright Angel

> a lot of switchbacks.  Since heights bother you some, you will be pleased to
> know that one side of the trail is always upslope.  There are no knife-like
S. Kaibab is steeper and shorter down to the river than BA. I've seen fallen 
mule carcasses along the S. Kaibab, but never heard (or smelled) of any along 
BA if this is any indicator to you.  I'd recommend Bright Angel if there is any 
question of vertigo.

>    There is also no place to get water until you reach phantom ranch at the
> bottom.  (I believe there is one place about 4 miles under the rim on the
> kaibob, nice springs and stuff).  It is possible to stay at the phantom ranch
No water anywhere on S. Kaibab.  Just an outhouse about halfway down on Cedar Ridge.  
Water is available in a couple of places along Bright Angel. Hike very early in 
the day to beat the heat.  The latest forcast I saw called for 108 next Friday in 
Phoenix, which has about the same weather conditions as the bottom of the canyon.

-- 
Steve Holm  AG Communication Systems  Phoenix,AZ  (602)582-7344  
internet: gtephx!holms@enuucp.eas.asu.edu 
uucp:     ncar!noao!enuucp!gtephx!holms
From: tomg@hpcvusc (Thomas J. Gilg)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:19:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvusn.1992Sep8.181929.19387
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

>> Have others run into this little problem where we humans are asked to
>> leave no trace, yet the agency that makes this request leases the land
>> for pasture ...

> In Portland, OR, the city takes its drinking water from the Bull Run 
> Watershed on Mt. Hood. Hikers are not allowed in the watershed, but 
> logging is. 

I spent the past weekend bouncing in and out of the Three Sisters
Wilderness Area in Oregon.   I too was surprised to see several cattle
crossing signs in the middle of nowhere.

Thomas Gilg
tomg@cv.hp.com
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Floating through a forest fire
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:35:40 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <14594@auspex-gw.auspex.com> johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.182827.7105@ncar.ucar.edu> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
>
>A steelhead trout is not a salmon. I assume the classification is only
>done to allow the same regulations to be used for both species.
>According to Jim Freeman in "California Steelhead - The Complete Guide",
>"The remarkable steelhead is a rainbow trout that, for reasons understood
>only by the steelhead, runs to sea."

I think all trout and salmon are considered salmonoids.  They all are capable
of running to the sea, if it's accessible.  As for "reasons understood
only by the steelhead," I doubt that the steelhead understand the reasons
either.

>| We did catch and eat quite a few bull trout 
>
>I suppose that is *close* to a cow.

Closer to a char, actually.  Eastern brook trout also are actually a char
and not a trout.  Char also can run to the sea.  Does anyone know where
the name "bull trout" came from?


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sherod@newton.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod)
Subject: Re: Uses of high explosives in the backcountry
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 03:41:47 GMT

And its great for rmoving cairns too.  Even those really big ones 
on S. Arapahoe.

Scott
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Hiking through a forest fire
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:09:36 MDT
Keywords: hiking, fires 
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

griffin@milton.u.washington.edu (Thomas Griffin) writes:
>It reminded me of the time a buddy and I ignored
>Trail Closed signs in the Selway Bitterroot and hiked through some
>traces of a fire. Because of the rain we decided to ignore the trail
>closing and stick to our original route.

>I also found that forest fires are not
>like scenes from Bambi or Smokey the Bear commercials. There was no
>wall of flames but rather occasional hot spots smoking in the distance.

This is not the rule nor the exception.  Read on.

This is ment partially as a flame (pun intended) but also as a education
for those how think that hiking through and area that is closed due to
fire would be fun.  Most people do not realize that it does not take much
for a fire to "restart" it self.  Rain does help dampen a fire but for
the most part many of the western states have had drought for the past
six years.  This means that the vegetation is bone dry ie no water.  It takes
more than a a couple of good rains for the vegetation for absorb engough
water to offset the drought effects.  Although an area has been burned
the vegetation is not typically burnned complely through.  Fires are usually
moving through an area due to the winds pushing them.  If the winds
shift, the fire can easily come back through the same area and reburn it
if you will.  Or hot spots can rekindle itself and poof the fire is back.
Fire officals would have been really pissed it a hot spot started up and
they had abort a water drop or a fire retardent drop becuase you were in
the area.  Although there is also a good chance that they would made the
drop anyway.  In which case you could have been serverly injuried by the
impact of a 1000 gallons of water or retardent.

Obviously you were luckly that you did not have a wall of fire coming
through or you could have been one of the less fortunate crispy critters.
Try fighting a fire sometime then you might have an idea of what it
is like, I have, it is hard work some of the hardest I have ever done.
(I happen to be the third generation in my family to fight forest fires).
You might also get an appreciation of what a fire can do.  I have seen
were a fire was hot enough to melt steel beams in a house.  All that was
left of the house was the brick walls and steel beams.

Officals close roads and trails for a reason.  One of which is so they
can have complete confidence that an area secure and that they do not
have to worry about evacuating people.  You would have probably been
given a citation if you would have been caught.  Fire officals are not
too keen on bozos in the back woods.  As Smokey Bear says "think before you
strike" out on your next adventure.

Cheers,

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah



"I always wanted to climb those peaks ...
	 just didn't think I would do them all in one day."

	My climbing partner after hiking/climbing in the Wasatch.
From: rbear@inferno.uoregon.edu (Richard Bear)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: South Sister, 2nd try...
Date: 14 Sep 92 05:24:51 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5


The huge crows walk unconcernedly about
on the quiet ice of the summit glacier.
No one else is here. Strong winds, weak sun.
Far to the south, stealthily approaching,
a wide wave-front of storm, spitting sparks.
We turn our backs to it, gazing north, admiring
things we have seen only from below: 
Middle and North Sisters, Jefferson, Hood,
and, half-hidden in the smoke from forest fires,
Rainier, wrapped in summer ice. We sit stunned,
like two newborns, and gape at the silent crows.
                                
Well, what did we suppose we would do, once arrived
to look, at forty-three, from this breathless place?
Dance? or burst into song? Run naked along
the broken rim? Instead, we set out socks
to dry, and examine our toes and heels for damage.
It is, after all, a very long way home.

                             --Richard Bear

sorry about blank post. getting hang of new software...
anyway, it was nice out there (to say the least).
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: Floating through a forest fire
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:46:01 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.143523.5399@ico.isc.com>, carnes@ico.isc.com (Steve Carnes) writes:
] 	ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
] >felt that we were privileged to have seen the fires, and lucky to have been
] >untouched by them.
] 
] Interesting story, Ilana.  However, the question remains, did you see
] any burned cows?

We were sure hoping to!  I like my steaks kinda rare, but char-broiled
is ok by me!  

(No cows along the Salmon, at least none that we saw.  Not counting
cow elk, of course.) 

-- 
/\                Ilana Stern DoD#009  ilana@ncar.ucar.edu 
  \_][ <--NCAR       Colorado...is totally rectangular.
      \_Boulder______________________________________________________Kansas__
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: water treatment -- some first hand info
Keywords: water filter
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 20:22:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.181339.12107@gtephx.UUCP>
meredithd@gtephx.UUCP (Douglas Meredith) writes:
> -- If this is truly giardia, it's not that bad.

The danger comes with secondary infections.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: smay@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Scott Smay)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:55:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Razors in wilderness
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

Sure--ban razors and shaving.

Then, ban flashlights.

Then plastic.

Synthetic fibers like nylon and polyester.

Chemicals like aspirin, gasoline, paraffin, iodine.

Discussions of politics.

Have a nice trip....

It's galling to think that there are purists who think they have any self
interest in whether or not I choose to shave in the woods. BAckcountry regs
ought to be designed to limit impact on the environment, not to regulate
social behavior.
From: psilsbee@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Peter Silsbee)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: water treatment -- some first hand info
Keywords: water filter
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:36:54 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Sep4.181339.12107@gtephx.UUCP> meredithd@gtephx.UUCP (Douglas Meredith) writes:

> -- If this is truly giardia, it's not that bad.  Just mild cramping with occasional
>    more urgent... uh... calls of nature.

It varies. Several years ago, my wife became infected with giardia (we think;
her experience was much like yours in that the doctor that finally treated
her figured a dose of Flagyl was more effective than testing), and it was
much nastier than you describe. I won't go into details. It didn't help that
in the early 1980's a good portion of the medical community didn't know 
giardia from, let's see, atopic pregnancy, gall bladder problems, I don't 
remember all the different diagnoses she got -- "Intestinal parasites?
you're not in some third-world country you know..." Anyway, the upshot
is that for SOME people, giardia can be very unpleasant.

As for the Flagyl side-effects, I expect that this "myth" really does come
from somewhere... I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home so as
not to put my foot too far in my mouth now.

--Peter
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: leonam@vccsouth15.its.rpi.edu (Marcus B. Leonard)
Subject: Re: Tents
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 04:18:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.205229.17111@trentu.ca> xtkmg@trentu.ca (Kate Gregory) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.034720.10023@news.media.mit.edu> geek@media.mit.edu (Chris Schmandt) writes:
>
>[about Eureka tents]
>>each tent has
>>experienced failure of the bottom horizontal zipper.  We replaced the
>>first one ourselves, and chalked it up to being a fluke.  The 4
>>person tent has been slept in less than 50 nights, only once on a
>>beach, and generally well cared for, so I am disappointed at the
>>zipper failure that seems to be a pattern.  I suspect it will cost
>>more than the tent is worth to have it replaced.
>>
>Apparently the sliders erode as sand gets in them. It's trivial
>to replace the slider and they don't charge. This year our upper
>[...]
>Moral: probably only your slider is gone. Our partner's lasted
>longer because they are pickier about keeping sand and dirt
>out of their tent. Anyway you can probably get it fixed free.
>You could even do it completely yourself, buying the slider
>at a fabric store.

If this is the problem, you can also temporarily repair the sliders
in the field.  Gently squeeze the slider (in its flat-ish dimension)
with a pair of pliers until it once again closes the zipper teeth
properly.  The problem is simply that the worn slider has too much
room in its channel, and is not forcing the teeth together.  Squeeze
it in to tighten the fit.

This works a couple times on any given slider.  After a few cycles, it will
break.  When you get the chance, you really should replace it.

				Marc Leonard
				leonam@rpi.edu
From: rah@public.BTR.COM (Richard A Hyde  rah@btr.com)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Rickettsia, Giardia, & Cows at 12,000 ft.
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:14:44 GMT
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, MtnView CA. Contact: Customer Service cs@BTR.COM

Are cows resistant to Giardia?  Do the folks who graze them on public
lands sell them before they waste away?

Perhaps a newspaper article announcing the names of suppliers selling
*infected beef* would get the cows pulled for economic reasons.

Note:   1/2  :-)   I know you can't catch giardia by eating beef.

But I bet the idea will work!


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Richard Hyde  |  RaH@btr.com  |    This space intentionally left blank   |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: R1SCM@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Dr. Steven C. Myers)
Subject: Re: Tents
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:53:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.160259.18310@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>
gadient@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (JL Gadient) writes:
 
>GREETINGS! The SO and I are in the market for a new tent. I own a
>very old Eureka! Timberline-2. It is a great tent but too small for
>the three of us (Kennebec our retriever[mix]). So, I figure we should
>get a Timberline-4 with 2 doors.
>
>However, the massive selection causes me to wonder if there isn't
>a better choice out there. We really don't want to spend more than
>$200. I am pretty much sold on Eureka tents because of how well
>mine has held up. They are also guaranteed but I am unsure how the
>guarantee works. Can I trade my old beat up one for a new one? :-)
>What about the Alpine Meadows or the Aurora?
>
>Can anyone shed some light on this tent quandry of ours? E-mail
>would be just fine. I will post a summary. Thank you all in
>advance. Happy camping!           -john
>
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>gadient@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu      |          ..pur-ee!gadient
>
 John,
I too have a timberline-2 and am very pleased, but it has only 5-7
trips on it so far.  Our troop is thinking of buying timberline-4s
but I too  am in the market for more information.
 
I like the two-door because you can use a vestibule in front and
back (not if backpkng, but then that is why i will keep the 2).  Equipment
goes in the rear vest. and muddy boots in the front and 2-3 scouts have
PLENTY of room for sleeping or playing cards in the rain or ....
 
I like the fly to be a lighter color though because natural light
or the friendly propane light outside can provide so much light through
the fly that I don't burn up batteries in my flashlight.
 
Eureka also has put out a special edition timberline (silver and grey
with SPECIAL EDITION on teh fly) with two doors and a vestibule that is
part of the fly.  It is a better deal, but supplies are going fast
so I'm told.
 
Let me know what you find out and share with the net, I do particularly
like the A frame models.  So far Campmoor gives the best price.  If anyone
knows of better deals -- let's hear them.
 
Steve Myers
Scoutmaster, Troop 1, Akron OH
 
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: CCGM000 <CCGM@MUSICM.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: Water treatment article from Am J Pub Health (1989)
Organization: McGill University Systems Inc (MUSIC/SP)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:51:21 GMT

   Here's a question thrown out for consideration - I'd like to
know if an answer exists to it. The date of that journal article is
1988 - given the publication cycle, it's quite conceivable that the
research was done almost a year prior to that date - 1987. Since the
current date is 1992 (by my reckoning!) isn't there the possibility
that some manufacturers have in fact upgraded their products? At the
very least, they should have some answer with respect to this article,
since I'd presume that their technical departments have heard of it,
at least. Anyone queried a manufacturer of a filter with this?
   What prompts me is that I have a WaterTech filter (presumbably the
same as in the article). However, the packaging claims to deal with
giardia - the article claims that it's useless. I haven't had any
ill effects, but believe me, I'm not a happy camper!

Glen Matthews
MUSIC Product Group, McGill University
550 Sherbrooke St. West, Montreal, Quebec, Canada H3A 3C5
Phone: (514) 398-4477 Fax: (514) 398-4488 BitNet: CCGM@MCGILLM
Internet: ccgm@musicm.mcgill.ca   Anonymous FTP: vm.mpg.mcgill.ca