From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Of giving up and getting on..(was Women vs Men)
Date: Mon,  9 Nov 92 11:45:12 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <BxCzGt.2vI@acsu.buffalo.edu>
  <Nov.7.17.24.34.1992.13322@ruhets.rutgers.edu>

9211.09 e.v.


Lorenzo Farris writes:

By and large, I agree that Christianity is full of all kinds of
nastiness. 


Response:

This comment is inflammatory, ambiguous and devoid of useful content.


Lorenzo:

However, there is one point in its defense. Catholicism is
the only established religion I am aware of (please correct me if
there really are others) in which there is an opportunity, and has
been for centuries, for women to pursue spirituality to its fullest
extent. 


Response:

Josh mentioned a couple, but you are missing the point.  The social
organization, the 'machine', does not MAKE opportunities for people
to 'pursue spirituality', and most assuredly not 'to its fullest extent.'

Organized religion by its very nature is contrary to spirituality, and
it is only those who find some way to change its structure, really to
DE-structuralize it, from the inside out, that are pursuing their
spirituality in organizational terms.

LOVE, however, may be practiced by ANYONE, at ANY TIME, and this is
what I see as 'its fullest extent'.  More often than not society and
socially organized religions inhibit this love, they only rarely foster
it.  The reason for this is that an organization is a group of people
who are held together by shared values and, in this day and age,
doctrines/rules, which curtail social unrest and emotional disturbance.
The unrest is a SYMPTOM of a larger problem.

This larger problem is a distinct LACK of inward-looking, quietude, and
humility (not in a put-on sense, but in a sense of actually placing oneself,
WILLING oneself into the lowest possible position).  Listening to others,
working toward consensual power relationships and practicing ACTIVE
acceptance (even encouraging deviance) is closer to 'pursuing spirituality'
than any role in any officially approved building.


Lorenzo:

As a nun, of course. No temporal authority, no secular
goodies, but at least there women have the opportunity for what is
considered in the church to be the highest pursuit. 


Response:

If you have not already done so, I recommend that you take up a
study of the ACTUAL experience of nuns in modern and historical
Catholicism.  My limited reading leads me to think that your words
here are VERY far wrong.

Men run the convents on the whole.  If they are not actively involved
with its affairs, they keep a very tight rein on the power relationships
within the convent-system.  Men receive the adulation (Jesus is, after
all, considered to have had a penis, and so did all his disciples - oh
wait, nah, Mary Magdelene was a whore, never mind :>).

Yes, you are correct that 'in the church' it is considered to be the
highest pursuit.  As I said, I think you'll find that the reality is
much different than the ideals of a repressive orthodoxy.


Lorenzo:

And I don't know
what other groups do to respect the accomplishments of women, but
women do get canonized as Saints, and I don't think there is any
higher recognition of accomplishment in what the church 'says' is most
important. 


Response:

I hope I'm wrong about this, but my impression is that the 'canonical'
process is a political ploy designed to serve the needs of the men who
wish to influence various aspects of society (whether ecclesiastical or
no).  They 'find evidence' which allows them to come to the conclusions
that they find useful/meaningful, much as modern Science does, which is
really not very surprising.


Lorenzo:

Whew! Now I can go back to being antagonistical to organized religion.
:-)


Response:

I wish you would instead focus more upon an unbiased evaluation of the
role that organizations have played in society and how they tend to
disempower the individual REGARDLESS of whether or not they are 
covered by the mask of 'religion' or not.  Thanks.


Thyagi
------------------------------------------------------
"Turn off the tv and read a book."

Esther Kemalyan,
Kemalyan Ranch School,
Acampo, California
Newsgroups: alt.magick