HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: American Bashing
From: Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 08:13:25 EDT
Organization: Rohm and Haas Company

In article <CC.92Sep28112654@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk>, cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
says:
>In article <25SEP92.14063820@enh.nist.gov> downey@enh.nist.gov writes:
>   As an American, it is difficult for me to understand why anyone
>   would be embarassed about nationalism.  Many Americans are very
>   patriotic; it is part of our culture.  We do cherish our freedom,
>   especially our freedom of speech.  I agree with Suzanne, standing
>   up for what you believe in is a fundamental in American society.
>
>Patriotism in Western Europe used to be associated with Empires and
>consequently with murder, rape, looting in the third world.  People don't
>like that sort of thing any more, so they often feel embarrassed to be overly
>patriotic about their country.  To European eyes, a very patriotic American
>seems to automatically approve of all the despicable things the USA has done
>to some other nations.  I doubt that's true of many Americans, but it can
>easily look that way from outside.
Funnily enough, with talk of Ross Perot re-entering the US presedential race,
I'm beginning to wonder whether he isn't a real American patriot, in the best
sense of the word. A man who looks at the people running the country, and who
knows that he can't stand idly by and let them run the country into the
ground. Most of us have the handy cop-out that there is nothing we can really
do about it, but Ross Perot knows he can make a difference, and he couldn't
look himself in the eye if he stood back and let the professionals conduct
business as usual.
>
>--
>        -- Chris.       cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
>
Aengus
--
RBYAML@ROHMHAAS.COM                    Aengus Lawlor
RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET                   (who used to be ALAWLOR@DIT.IE)
"How about some of that famous Dublin wit, Barman?"
"Certainly, sir. Would that be Dry or Sparkling?"
From: esharp@sage.cc.purdue.edu (BREWER AND BAKER)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: IRN BRU
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:59:59 GMT
Distribution: all
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center


 I was at a car show last weekend (I drive a Triumph Spitfire, btw.) and they 
had a stand selling Irn Bru in cans.  I don't have the taste for it, I found.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Homogenisation ( Was Re: My Ugly American post for the year....)
Date: 6 Oct 1992 19:57:59 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.82

Morna J Findlay writes:
somebody else> [About regional music styles dying out]

[Analogy to gene monocultures]
>We don't know if it matters - only hindsight will tell, but most folk
>seem to think it's a good idea to keep other species alive.

But mass comm & recording can be a force for preservation.  I've been
rereading Breandan Breathnach's book recently about Irish music, & if
I understand what he is saying ritely, a lot of Irish traditional
music instrumental & singing styles disappeared before anyone had a
chance to record them.  They are well & truly LOST.  (See the early
music revival for counterarguments, tho.)  We have had recordings long
enuf to capture styles of music that are no longer widely (or even
occaisionally) played -- recorded badly, but still recorded.  Like
ragtime.  Ragtime is as dead a style as you can get, but very well
preserved.  The Lomaxes in the US did a tremendous amount of recording
of country musicians & their recordings & documentation are still
inspirational.

Am I wrong to say that the first trad Irish music recorded was done
in Chicago & NYC in the '20's?  Michael Coleman & the Flanagans[?]?
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Cliff and the Devil....
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:33:57 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Sep30.095159.2171@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu> shazam@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:

   "Cliff" sang a song called Devil Woman.  To the best of my recollection,
   Cliff did not sing "religious" songs, or rather Christian music 
   as it is called.  He was a pop singer.  If he had any other hits,
   other than this one, I do not remember them.

Oh, I *see*.  Thanks for the explanation!  I suppose this would send some
people a bit nutty.  But actually Cliff became a born-again Christian several
decades ago now, and sings hit songs about God.  He's had several dozen (at
*least*) hit records - he's been regularly in the charts for the last 30 or
so years.  It sounds funny to hear of him being criticised for being
un-Christian - here you mostly hear about him being criticised for being
very Christian, boring and excessively bland.
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
From: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Americans! *smile*
Date: 29 Sep 1992 20:22:47 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.82

Matthew Huntbach writes:
#> -Nationalism of the sort which Americans find natural and
#> -unexceptional is in Europe regarded as the height of bad
#> -manners, boorish and dangerous.

I think I'm beginning to understand what you're saying, tho
probably not quite the way you _want_ me to understand it.
Tell me, are you equating "patriotism" & "nationalism" in
this discussion?   Could you give me a better idea what it
is you mean by these words?
From: ulick@rodin.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: [SOC] ABOUT THE BEATING DEATH OF MR. LUYEN PHAN NGUYEN
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:27:38 GMT
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame

Is it just me or is anyone else getting pissed off  with the number of people
with political or religious causes unrelated to Ireland, Scotland, Celtism,
or anything else relevant to this group who post interminably long articles 
to this newsgroup typically as part of a line that goes to nearly all s.c.
groups (not that that is the case with this one)?  Short comments may be
acceptable, but when I see 3% at the bottom of the screen, I get really
pissed off.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
+ 'There was a  master come unto the earth, + Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       +
+    born in the holy land of Indiana,      + Dept of Chemical Engineering, +
+ in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne'.+ Notre Dame, IN 46556          +
+      B'fhearr liom bheith ag eitilt.      +    ulick@bach.helios.nd.edu   +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Date: 5 Oct 92 08:53:06 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
>SO let me get this straight - I believe that you are claiming that the
>deteriation of, for example,  Celtic culture in Ireland is due to the
>United States and not Great Britain right?

No, but I am saying it is a contributing factor. The fact that
entertainment in the form of films and TV programmes available
here is dominated by material produced in America is a major
force in the decline of more local cultures throughout Europe.
A culture with a few million people cannot compete in amount of
material with the USA culture where material produced for its
local market can almost be dumped into Europe because the
profits are made in the USA, while Europe is just a top-up.

>is true - whose fault is it? Last time I looked the "American Media
>MAchine" did not force Britain to broadcast Dallas, Rosanne, and various
>other shows - or is there something I don't know? It seems to me that
>there are citizens of Europe who enjoy watching American made movies,
>drinking American made soda, eating American made food and buying
>American made products in general - are you saying that they should be
>denied that "right"?

No. I am saying it is a pity they decide to give up their own
things in favour of American things. I am not saying they have
no right to, nor that I would deny them the ability to do so.

>> Well, posting articles suggesting that Americans be a bit more
>> sensitive about other people's cultures *is* doing something
>> about it.
>
> Really? What exactly? Is it going to make that little european youngster
>stop drinking Coca-cola or Pepsi? Is he going to stop wanting to buy
>the latest Apple computer? And if he does Matthew - are you going to explain
>to him why his father or mother are out of a job when the various
>American firms close up shop in Europe?

Posting articles like mine may help build a consciousness which
prevents an unthinking slip towards world Americanisation. I
think that many Americans reading this, who have a genuine
interest in other cultures, may be helped in seeing why we in
Europe seem to get offended at some aspects of American
nationalism, and may find it useful to be made aware of how
their behaviour can, without them intending it to be, seem
rather brash and self-centred.

As for American products, it is the American "image" that
people go for. Apart from the entertainment industry, I am not
aware of American products being used much in this country.
German and Japanese products, maybe, but not American. And I
should think if European people do stop buying American
products and rely more on European products it would create not
destroy jobs in Europe.

Matthew Huntbach
From: tahonen@katk.Helsinki.FI (Timo Ahonen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Nationalism - or Why do people have flags in their gardens?
Date: 29 Sep 92 11:41:06 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki, Computing Centre

In article <44997@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes:

>I'm just back from Denmark where one sometimes sees houses with flagpoles in 
>the gardens flying the Danish flag, ot sometimes a red and white
>streamer that I suppose represents the Danish flag.

>I remember seeing this in Switzerland, Austria and Turkey when I visited
>those countries. Certainly, as mmh syas, if anyone un the UK had the
>Union Jack in their garden, you'd suspect them of being some kind of
>fascist loony. Only the Queen has a flag in her garden, which proves my
>point rather well :-)

>Perhaps the people flying these flags are some kind of elected officials
>or something. Does anyone know? I've never seen such displays in France
>or Ireland.

>M

>--
>Morna Findlay                                  JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
>       Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
>Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
>Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.

I can't really talk on behalf of other countries, but I'd suspect that the 
system is fairly alike in Denmark as in Finland. Flying the national flag is 
a right for the all the inhabitants of the country regardless of their 
nationality of official position, whenever one likes. This includes 
foreiners as well, although some people might take offense of a foreign flag 
constantly flying in their neighbourhood. Usually flags are flown at
private houses only on special occasions like weddings, christening a baby, 
funerals, birthdays etc., except national 'flag-flying' days (the 
independence day, election days, the Mother's Day etc.), when all the 
buildings have flags. The idea is to make it all a bit more festive and 
unique occasion. There is no nationalist meaning in it. It doesn't have 
necessarily anything to do with patriotism or political opinions, although 
it you fly the flag for no apparent reason almost all the time, you might 
get strange looks and people talking behind your back.

In general I'd say that attachment to national symbols like the flag is 
decreasing in Finland, and the Flag Song (like a pledge to the flag but 
sung) is something few people of the younger generation would be willing to 
sing anymore, IMHO. Not because they would oppose the flag or be anti-state, 
but just because it feels unnecessary and stupid; "I'm a Finn and that's  
the Finnish flag, so yes, it is my flag, too. So?"

Timo Ahonen                        "Sometimes I think the surest sign that
University of Helsinki             intelligent life exists elsewhere in the
Finland                            universe is that none of it has tried to
Timo.Ahonen@Helsinki.FI            contact us." Calvin by Bill Watterson
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Relevance
Date: 5 Oct 92 08:12:45 GMT
Organization: Open Communications Forum

In article <BvEFwp.EJu@dcs.ed.ac.uk> gsut@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Giles Sutherland) writes:
>In article <1992Sep29.142738.4957@news.nd.edu>, ulick@rodin.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford) writes:
>> Is it just me or is anyone else getting pissed off  with the number of people
>> with political or religious causes unrelated to Ireland, Scotland, Celtism,
>> or anything else relevant to this group who post interminably long articles 
>> to this newsgroup typically as part of a line that goes to nearly all s.c.
>> groups (not that that is the case with this one)?  Short comments may be
>> acceptable, but when I see 3% at the bottom of the screen, I get really
>> pissed off.
>> 
>> 
>I would concur with your view.  So, what's to be done about it?
>
>Giles Sutherland.



KILLFILES!   Be creative with your kill files. They can be tailored to exclude
parts of subjects (like America* , US*, you get the idea) or even postings by
certain individuals. Or just do the less permanent kind and renew them every
session. Generally, as soon as a subject or author becomes tedious, I kill the
subject, and then a couple days or a week later I sample the message thread to
see if it's moved on yet.

There's really no good reason to put up with any of this. Kill it.  :-)

Suze (whose local BBS handle is "Morrigu" ;-)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: georgere@microsoft.com (George V. Reilly)
Subject: Re: Nationalism - or Why do people have flags in their gardens?
Date: 01 Oct 92 01:17:48 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

spain@galvia.enet.dec.com (Gary Spain) writes:
) There is quite a high level of religious tolerance here [Ireland].
) The country is 94% RC (according to the last census) but there is
) rarely any trouble regarding religion.

Does that 94% figure encompass non-practicing Catholics?
I'm sure attendance at mass in the cities is nowhere near as
high as that.

) Generally nobody knows what religion you are anyway.

They just assume you're Catholic.
________________
George V. Reilly   <GeorgeRe@Microsoft.Com>
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: European superiority
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 16:52:12 GMT

From article <23282@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, by gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell):
> 
> Now I have to go and finish my Pepsi before the rerun of Married with
> Children comes on and then I need to wax my new Dodge Grand Caravan that I
> got at 7% interest and no money down but then again the microwave oven needs
> cleaning and all three of my color TV's could use a wipe or two.... ah hell...> I'll wait until tomorrow after I've played with the Mac II and listened to
> the CD player for awhile.... and to think I'm only a student..... if only I
> had time to learn the Zen-like teachings of Europeans.....
> 
> 			gln
> 

This rather sick flaunting of you "wealth" would be greatly appreciated
by the very poor families up in Northern NY state, Alabama, Missippi,
etc. The poor up her have no health care, live off welfare, and
continual drives are run to provide food for the food banks. You and
Mathew Huntback can attack each other as much as you want but you are
both birds of a same feather. If you are both such great supporter of
Capitalism (and you are only arguing over who has the richer plumage) I
would suggest that you spent some time in the south Bronx, the coal
mining communities of West Verginia, or inner city Liverpool (and this
is to ignore the gross poverty of the third world that both Western
Europe and the US are were willing to accept provided that their god
given Capitalist economics are not touched by this blight).

How can anyone who claims to listen to the CLASH spout such crap as I
read above.

											GW
From: ccsdgdc@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Douglas Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Seamus Heaney
Date: 30 Sep 92 14:13:19 GMT
Organization: Bath University Computing Services, UK


Seamus lives in Dublin. He spends one term a year teaching at Harvard.
He is currently Professor of Poetry at Oxford but only visits to give
the occasional lecture. I dont know his Dublin address. Perhaps
somebody could look him up in the phonebook.

I would have thought that Seamus Heaney, Poet, Dublin
would be a reachable address. Supply a stamped addressed envelope
if you want a reply. He will get lots of unwanted mail.

Alternatively write to him care of his publishers Faber and Faber
at Queen Square, London. You can get the exact address from one of
his books. That is a more normal approach. Remember the sae.
-- 
Douglas Clark                                  Voice : +44 225 826039
Regional Services,                       JANET : D.G.D.Clark@uk.ac.bath
Bath University Computing Services, UUCP : ...uunet!mcsun!uknet!gdr!D.G.D.Clark
Bath, Avon, England BA2 7AY    ARPA : D.G.D.Clark%bath.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: European superiority
Date: 5 Oct 92 09:13:09 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
>This rather sick flaunting of you "wealth" would be greatly appreciated
>by the very poor families up in Northern NY state, Alabama, Missippi,
>etc. The poor up her have no health care, live off welfare, and
>continual drives are run to provide food for the food banks. You and
>Mathew Huntback can attack each other as much as you want but you are
>both birds of a same feather. If you are both such great supporter of
>Capitalism (and you are only arguing over who has the richer plumage) I
>would suggest that you spent some time in the south Bronx, the coal
>mining communities of West Verginia, or inner city Liverpool (and this
>is to ignore the gross poverty of the third world that both Western
>Europe and the US are were willing to accept provided that their god
>given Capitalist economics are not touched by this blight).

When have I ever suggested that I am a "great supporter of
Capitalism"? Or when have I ever denied the plight of poor
people in Britain or elsewhere? In fact if you took a look at
some of my postings in other newsgroups, you will see this is an
issue which greatly concerns me. I have attacked American
nationalism, I cannot see how this somehow transforms me into a
defender of British nationalism. As it is, I was thoroughly
sickened by some of the displays of nationalism during the
Falklands war, and I view with distaste other forms of
nationalism which are seen in the British tabloid press. I do
note, however, that this form of nationalism is generally
confined to the tabloid press in Britain.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: misra@skyfox.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Nationalism - or Why do people have flags in their gardens?
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:30:53 GMT

In a previous article, spain@galvia.enet.dec.com () wrote:
>--
>In article <1992Sep30.070155.12571@netcom.com>, eamon@netcom.com (Charles E Taggart) writes:
> 
>|>Fascinating ... I never knew this.  It seems ironic that Orange marches
>|>would occur in the county with Ireland's largest Gaeltacht.
>|>
>|>The stated purpose of the Orange marches has been for expression of pride
>|>in Protestantism and "Britishness", but it seems that their main purpose
>|>in the North is to intimidate the nationalist population.  This would be
>|>pointless in the Republic, so I would guess that the marches' purpose
>|>would be the former.
> 
>Yes it is the former.  They don't go around singing sectarian songs etc.
>Not sure about the British thing as most protestants in this country would
>consider themselves Irish not British.
>
Considering that the raison d'etre of the Orange Order is sectarian, I 
sincerely doubt Gary's assertion that southern Orangemen don't sing sectarian
songs. I wonder if Gary's ever read the charter of the Orange Order? It exists
solely to re-establish a protestant hegemony over "papists". It is a purely
sectarian organization (don't believe me? try joining). For someone who has 
repeatedly pilloried the GAA as being sectarian, it surprises me to hear
Gary Spain portray Orangemen as some sort of benevolent cultural group.

>|>How are they viewed by the majority population of Donegal and Cavan?
> 
>Apparently quite a few come out to watch the parade.  I'm going on a very
>hazy memory here but I think there's a march in Rosnowlagh (sp?).  Anyone
>know where the Cavan march is held?
> 
>
The only thing that surprises me about this is that there isn't a march
down O'Connell St with the Lord Mayor of Dublin riding King Billy's white
horse, and the President and the Taosieach doubling up on the Lambeg drums.

Cynically yours,

Pearse
From: zhenggr@vxcrna.cern.ch (ZHENG,guo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: p
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:34:00 GMT
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Thanks every body.
From: shazam@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: *SMILE*  For angus......
Date: 7 Oct 92 00:52:03 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

*laugh*  Perhaps you should learn to read sir.  I replied to his 
remarks about Mississippi and Alabama, and their being what seemed to be,
labeled as "Welfare states", when in fact, welfare exsists in
every state in the USA.  My last posting probably answered most
of your questions, although I am not sure WHY I was working for
teh Department of Human Services as it is known now, was relevant.

I also posted to the group, because I felt he made comments that were
untrue, or if you wish to view it another way, he insinuated
things that were untrue.  I wished to make it known to the group
that that was not the way it was.  THAT is why I posted to the group.
If he or anyone feels I am wrong in what I have said, feel free to
post it here, most do anyway.  *laugh*

It is terrible that most of the rudeness of this group comes from assholes who
cannot seem to stand that someeon disagrees with them...BIG DEAL!  *laugh*
SHeesh, I mena what IS the deal?  

I have enjoyed meeting a lot of people here..I have enjoyed a lot
of the discussions we have had here.....I have not enjoyed the 
way some people get the asses way up over their heads about 
people disagreeing wiht them.....I have not been mad abotu someeon disagreeing.
It is difficult wiht this medium, to determine someoen is not mad, I will
admit.  But come on......

Let's just allow others their differences of opinion...and if you feel
it is is wrong, speak out.  Let's not get angry over this, ok?
I do not plan on leaving the group..but we may very well lose others who
are new or jsut plain tired of this......

I do not think I have to explain this time, why I sent to the group.
Thanks for bearing with me all.....

Have a grea evening!  *S M I L E*  That was said in the greatest
of spirits and not meant to be mean!

Suzanne