HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Regarding Cameras at SCA events
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 20:59:00

 G> Well - I'm not willing to put up with being photographed at all, in 
 G> general.  I actively detest sitting in a candlelit 
 G> hall, hearing someone
 G> being roundly praised for their good service to King and Baron, and 
 G> having a mess of flashbulbs go off.  Right up there with hurling bckets
 G> of ice water on newlyweds for spoiling the mood.

 G> Graydon
   For my two pence worth, I don't mind being photographed, although I 
 do look better if I realize it and have a chance to "pose" -- not a lot 
 just a bit to get the double chin out of the way and add a smile.  I'm 
 not too fond of camcorders, but I tolerate them.  Flashes, OTOH, are 
 a very mundane intrusion.  You can
                                   't ignore them and they catch your 
 attention regardless of where you were looking.  I firmly believe that 
 flash units of any kind should be banned.  Ansteorra's more enlightened 
 crowns *have* banned them from court.  Let those who would have photos 
 learn about film speeds!  Candle-lit pictures from a medium-good 
 photographer look very nice!  (period, no, but still nice)
     Gwenllian CfM

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Date: 25 Jul 92 22:02:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1992Jul25.174637.12596@samba.oit.unc.edu> Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney) writes:

>My own (too much) experience, both personal and second hand, indicates
>that for most women, it's easier and more effective to fight off
>an attacker unarmed.  The little "don't hurt anyone" mechanism is less
>likely to go off when you are acting defensive, and not using a 
>weapon, unless training and experience make using that weapon
>automatic.
	Vivat. I know I hate the idea of hurting anyone. I'd be much
more likely to fight hard enough to get away if I wasn't afraid of actually
killing.
					-Ilaine


-- 
Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's EZ-Pregnancy Test 
Ilaine de Cameron  | ... "Now take the skein of handspun yarn out of the 
                   | dyebath. If it is green, you are with child, if it
ilaine@panix.com   | is blue, you are not."
From: smelvin@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (The Black Bard  )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Song by the Black Bard
Date: 30 Jul 92 18:13:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego


                       THE MANNERS OF CAID 
                                by Rathflaed DuToutNoir 
                                The Black Bard of Meridies 
                                mka: Stephen R Melvin
   D              G             A                  D
As I went walking in Caid, the westland's shining star, 
   D                  G              A               D
I found out what the manners of the people out there are, 
   G              D                      A                   D
I heard a herald cry "Oyez!", and where silence should have reigned, 
     D               G                 A             D
The people still continued on and she had to shout again, 

Speechless, I watched the story begin to unfold, 
I thought, the herald, she must be a noble brave and bold, 
For when she yelled "pray silence", her message to impart, 
They still continued talking and she never got to start. 

Chorus: 
     G                   D                    A                 D
Now I've seen rash, and I've seen bold, and thought I'd seen it all. 
G                D               A                 D
I've seen nasty, I've seen mean, evil, tough and small,
    G                 D          A            D
I thought I had seen rude before, but then indeed,
     D              G              A         D
I'd never seen the manners of the people of Caid.

Offended and confused, the Herald went off on her way,
To try to find an audience to hear what she would say,
But she had to travel many leagues, ere her message found a home, 
The message of a man who'd won a crown of great renown.

Now, I'm still standing in the back, shaking my head,
At these people too arrogant to hear what she said,
For I've traveled many lands and the people there are taught,
When a hearald starts to speak, you do not!

Chorus:

I thought perhaps it was a fluke, but then no,
For coronation came around, and I did go,
To entertain the populace, or at least the king,
But the feasters were too loud for anyone to hear me sing.

I tried to tell a funny tale, their attention for to hold,
But I'd counted not Caidians to be so bold,
For though I told of war and death, love and other things,
The feasters thought their pleasure more important than the king's.

Chorus:

Now, I know not all the people of Caid have manners poor,
But it only takes a single voice to interrupt and more,
For the many people of Caid with respect, who wish to hear,
Are drowned out by the few, who care not for other's cheer.

And what of the counselors and lackeys and the crown,
Well, majesty a single word would have brought the volume down,
I've traveled many lands and even the little ones,
Know that EVERYONE grows silent, when a bard begins to strum!


	Well, part of a Bard's job is to educate, after all...
Have a fine, fair, day...
Rathflaed

-- 
Rathflaed DeToutNoir              Bards make the best lays!!   
The Black Bard of Meridies         -Me 
mka: Stephen R Melvin

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: proct_hately@hg.uleth.ca (Kintair of Hawkehaven MKA Bill Hately)
Subject: Re: Apology and Retraction
Reply-To: proct_hately@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:27:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.002044.14679@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, 
tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:
>
>Unto Hossein Al Quomi, doth Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus send his greetings,
>and a gentle admonition,
>
>Good My Lord Hossein,  in a recent missive thou dids't say that because of
>an egregious error that thou dids't commit, that thou  dids't feel that
>"the only alternative available to me in honor is to permanently withdraw 
>from this forum."
>
>My Lord,  may I humbly suggest that in fact the only alternative avaialble
>to thee in honor is to continue in this forum.   
>
>My Lord, thou dids't err in that thou dids't act in the heat of passion.
>How shall thou learn moderation and courtesie an thou dost remove thyself
>from temptation?  Nay, My Gentle Hossein, there is no virtue to be found
>in resisting temptation when there is no temptation to be found.  Thou
>art locked in the battle with the most deadly foes,  pride and anger.
>An thou dost quit the feild of honor, thou dost not serve honor,  thou
>proclaimest thyself a coward and allow the dark forces of ignorance
>and temptation claim the feild.
>
>Thus, I would counsel thee -  accept thy trummeling, learn from it, gird 
>thy loins,  and continue to do battle.  Battle not with those with who
>thou dost disagree, but battle instead with the beast of ignorance gnawing
>they who disclaim falsely.  Battle also with thine own pride and anger, 
>so that thou mayest shine as a gentle light of wisdom in the midst of 
>darkness.  Regain thy honor multi fold as a man who doth sow one apple 
>seed doth reap a goodly crop.   But note,  that seeds do grow better in
>ground which is tended gently, than in ground which is pounded hard.
>
>Thus My Lord,  an it were my place to command thee, I would command thee
>that thou must stand, and I would forbid thee to leave the feild.
>
>As I am but a humble scholiard, I will beseech thee, for that I would sore
>miss thee and thy knowledge.
>
>In thy humble service
>Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus

I couldn't Have said it better myself - Being mostly a "Lurker" on the bridge I
enjoy almost all of the posts, and you have given me insight I wouldn't have
obtained otherwise - even when I do disagree with what you write
Kintair of Hawkehaven (Probably "twinky" but it has been for three years now)
Kintair of Hawkehaven          | Bill Hately   | Talk (403) 381-1741
Shire of Windwyrm              | Lethbridge AB | proct_hately@hg.uleth.ca
Crown Principality of Avacal   | Canada        | Smile Dammit
An Tir (I wouldn't dream of subjecting any corp. or Educational Institution to
        these opinions, so they certainly aren't the opinions of the UofL)
  (And I'm not an officer of the SCA so I can't have an official opinion There
              - even if I wanted to )
Life is a Sexually Transmitted Terminal Condition
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: midzor@tramp.Colorado.EDU (~Parador Moon~)
Subject: Rapier "Weights" (was Re: Rapiers and honor)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:39:19 GMT

Jumping into the fray... :-)

> GS> Wolfrick, how much do your rapiers *weigh*?
> GS> 
> GS> The (at least around here) answer of 'about as much as a modern
> GS> fencing epee' is my complaint with fencing in the SCA.

>And the attitude that a Musketeer/epee/slagger blade is the same weight as a 
>real rapier is STUPID. The first thing I do with novice rapier fighters is 
>hand them my -real- one, and ask them to "parry by beat" with it. It's too
>heavy to do that. So then they begin to learn -rapier- combat and NOT 'SCA
>Fencing.'

>                                                        -Ioseph of Locksley
>                                                         Grumpy Person


   Master Brian the Blacksmith once brought a rapier to a collegium he said
was dated in the late 1600's.  While this date is OOP, it it not too far off.
The point being is that the blade was the same width and weight as
a slagger.  I do not know how sure Master Brian was of the dating of the blade,
however. But it is easy to see how the attitude that you descibe as "stupid" 
could have foundings in known relics. 
   SCA fencing trys to emulate rapier combat, but is restricted by safety and
availability of equipment.  It is important to realize the differences this has
created, as it has in all forms of combat in the SCA.


Kaela
From: Leonard.Erickson@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: songs, acceptable and not.
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:24:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712567015.F00006

One point that I feel has not been addressed is the matter of songs *about* 
the SCA. I would hope that if the tune wasn't modern, they'd be acceptable. 
But the comments of many seem to hold otherwise. This would leave *no* 
"appropriate" place to sing such in many areas.

(a note regarding filks: *may* filks, and most of the better ones, have 
original music...)

I'm going to list some songs, and then let folks decide if these "belong" in 
the SCA or not.

Lord of the Dance (note that there are *two* tunes for this, one is "Simple
                   Gifts", the other is better in my opinion)
Raven Banner
Burden of the Crown
The Quest (chorus: "Here is my lance to mend -- (Haro!)..")
Song of the Men's Side
Rowan Tree
A Pict's Song  ("We are the little folk - we...")
Final Spell
The Knight's Leap
The Bowmen's Song       ("What of the bow, the bow was made in England..")
The Cuckoo      ("Oh the Cuckoo she's a pretty bird..")
Don't Eve Love  ("Don't ever love a fighter, ...")
One Day from Atenveldt
Sir Greenbaum's Madrigal
The Squire's Song       ("Wake up lad, it isna night...")
The Watcher             ("I am the watcher of the hills...")
Why I joined the SCA
Welcome to the Current Middle Ages
Sir Ton and the Palm Tree       (a contrafait of "Queen Elanor's
                                 Confession")
HAel's Song
The Hero of Fallshire Fair
The Knight at Fallshire Fair
Men of Reisling                 (a contrafait of Men of Harlech)
The Herald's Complaint          (this is the one with the *truly *weird*
                                 charge...)
Grinsleeves                     (a contrafait of Greensleeves)
Anachronist's Lament            (another contrafait of Greensleeves)
Volga Birthday                  (is Volga Boatman period?)



I don't expect folks to know all of these, but with a couple of exceptions, 
they are all period tunes (and thus qualify as "contrafaits") or they are 
original tunes (most of which are not jarring).

This is just a short list of what we stand to *lose* if people get too 
rigid.
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Once upon a Weekend" demo tape
Date: 17 Jul 92 04:43:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.711615569.F00004

TA>  From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
TA>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
TA>  In article <X67yNB4w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca>
TA>  graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon) writes:
TA>
TA>  >I *loathe*, *loathe*, *loathe* being photographed, because I have
TA>     ^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^
TA>  Why, why, why?  I have met several people who feel this way, and I
TA>  have yet
TA>  to understand it.  Me, I HATE posing.  "Okay everybody.  Hang around
TA>  and
TA>  stand in groups while the festivities are going on so that we can get
TA>  pictures."  But I don't give a damn about candids.  Why do some
TA>  people
TA>  Loathe, loathe, loathe being photographed?

How about many years of bad-looking photos?

Back when I was young and svelte, and told I was a beauty, I took *horrid* 
photos. My face froze in a position that looked quite remeniscent of a stone 
gargoyle (ask anyone in my family who has an old album of photos). I take a 
slightly less awful photo now that I am old and fat (but more relaxed) but I 
still *hate*, *hate*, *hate* it...

I will consent for good friends, or to preserve a truly special moment, but 
I hate it nonetheless.

IS it any business of yours, BTW?

Is capturing my unwilling image anyone's business who doesn't know me?

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rapier Combat in Meridies? (was: SCA Rapier combat illegal?)
From: z_berryrw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Date: 24 Jul 92 13:50:43 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <kJV0NB2w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca>, graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
 (Graydon) writes:
> wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson) writes:
>> From article <1992Jul20.125023.19889@progress.com>, by schuldy@progress.COM (
>> > Wolfrick and I were having a discussion in email about rapier
...deleted to save bandwidth....
>> 
>> Apparently this is true even in Arkansas.  The laws prohibit dueling
>> and if I remember correctly state swords as one of the prohibited
>> weapons.  The funnny thing about this is that the Universities 
>> teach fencing which should offficially be illegal.  The point to check
>> is:  Is rapier combat really a duel since no one is to be hurt or
>> killed?  If a fighting with swords is illegal, then all the fencers
>> should be tossed in jail...
> 
> Uller's beard!
> A duel involves a dispute, and seconds, and agreed upon terms of
> resolution, and an intent to at least injure.  SCA fighting resembles
> this (any SCA fighting) about as much as a Holstein cow resemles a
> puffin.
> 
> Graydon
> 
>         Graydon the Curious         /graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
>   Skraeling Althing, EAldormere, MK / "Nihil est quin obsisti possit"

Graydon,

I would respectfully point out that "duels" as you have defined them _DO_
occur in the SCA.  I am referring to challenge or honour duels.  These combats
do occasionally arise, and are a valid part of the re-creation we do.  If one
feels dishonoured or wronged, the Field of Honour can be an appropriate means
of redress.  As long as these "duels" are strictly within the rules of SCA
combat (either Medieval or Renaisance styles) then IMHO they are appropriate.

There is in your definition of a "duel" "an intent to at least injure."  While
we consider SCA fighting safe and fun, from the point of view of an outsider,
all SCA combat involves injury.  We understand that the injuries are an accept-
able part of the game and take steps to limit their severity.  But a deep muscle
bruise (not uncommon) is still an injury.

This point may seem nit-picky and petty, but we as Scadians live in the modern
world.  Like it or not, we must make allowances for mundane laws and customs.
I whole-heartedly wish that our Meridian friends could play light-weapons
without driving to an Ansteorran event.  But if, in fact Mundane laws prohibit
this, then we must respect the law.  This respect does not include, IMHO,
accepting that said laws are valid and permanent.
  
We need facts on this matter.  I would ask any of you who are legal
profesionals inside the Kingdon of Meridies to comment, in an informed,
unofficial capacity as to the actual legal state of affairs.  I understand the
problems involved with this medium and the various legal aspects of giving 
advice or counsel here.  But could we at least have some hard facts?

Respectfully,

Wolfrick Thorinsson, Shire of Greywood, Ansteorra
z_berryrw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Minstrel seeks words to song: Matty Groves
Date: 31 Jul 1992 16:12:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <400-JNEWS-2.1@smylex.UUCP> jlee@smylex.UUCP (Godfrey de Shipbrook) writes:
>
>A friend of mine would like me to sing the song `Matty Groves' for her at
>Pennsic, and though I have heard it (and fortunately remember the tune)
>I do not know the words.
>
>Could any kind gentle who knows this song please e-mail the words to me?
>

Well, I can't help, but I'm curious--does your friend intend to sing the
LONG version or the SHORT version?

The short version's more fun....

"And the moral of this story is ....
Be good.
And if you can't be good ....
Be careful.
And if you can't be careful ....
Keep it down to nine or ten verses, okay?"


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Obtrusive Mundania
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:19:28 GMT

In article <cV3BoB2w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca> graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon) writes:

>From the point of view of those of us who are trying to be medieval,
>or at least as little un-medieval as we can be, at events, in conformance
>to the stated purpose of the things, really don't like someone practicing
>their obtrusively modern hobby in the middle of things.

Of COURSE.  I hate coke cans, parked cars, undraped soda machines, power 
lines, and a host of other obtrusive mundane items.  I don't wear a watch, 
and I don't drag my camera around in a visible manner.  The whole reason I 
started the thread was an effort to get some help making my camera less 
obtrusive.  I got a few polite suggestions and a host of wolves leaping for 
my jugular, howling "I HATE cameras."  I just wanted to know what all the 
fuss was about.

-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat in Meridies? (was: SCA Rapier combat illegal?)
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:09:13 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Wolfrick Thorinsson writes:

>I would respectfully point out that "duels" as you have defined them _DO_
>occur in the SCA.  I am referring to challenge or honour duels.  These combats
>do occasionally arise, and are a valid part of the re-creation we do.  

No, we *pretend* to have duels in the SCA.  Our "duels" are not really
duels, for a legal viewpoint, any more than a performance of the last
scene of "Hamlet" is a duel.

>We understand that the injuries are an acceptable part of the game and 
>take steps to limit their severity.  But a deep muscle
>bruise (not uncommon) is still an injury.

It is also possible for an actor to get a bruise, or even sprain an
ankle.  That still does not make it a duel.  The crucial factor is
not injury but *intent* to cause injury.


>This point may seem nit-picky and petty, but we as Scadians live in the modern
>world.  Like it or not, we must make allowances for mundane laws and customs.

Mundane laws also make allowances for things like acting, entertainment,
and performances.  Why should we assume that "mundane" automatically
means "stupid?"  Most police officers are not idiots.  Any policeman
who mistakes two people who obviously have no real animosity toward one
another, wearing what appear to be theatrical costumes and playing with
toy swords, for a real duel is going to have to answer to his superiors.

-- Nicholas van Leyden
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Guns 'n' Armour (was: Re
Date: 23 Jul 92 20:17:55 GMT
Organization: Organization???

In article <archer.123@utkux1.utk.edu> archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>In article <711609696.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) writes:
>
>>A crossbow is *obviously* loaded and ready to fire, where as it is
>>far less obvious with most guns.  I've rarely seen crossbows left
>>in a ready-to-fire position when they were not in use, but this is
>>easier to do with guns.
>
>I'm afraid not.  It is easy to tell when firearms are loaded: always.
 
You know that, and I know that; the problem is: what assurance do we 
have that the guy carrying the gun knows that?
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Residence in local branches
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:08:14 GMT

Moreach NicMaolain asked how to find out the population and zip code
boundaries of your local group.

As if you didn't know the answer...  Write to the Steward's office.  But first,
try the local or Kingdom Seneschal.

Steward: Mistress Hilary of Serendip
         (Hilary Powers)
         385 Palm Avenue, #5A
         Oakland, CA 94610.

Moreach, I don't know which Kingdom you're in, so I can't send your Kingdom
Seneschal's info to you (well, I could type in all 12, but I've got a few
other things to do today).

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: icklinck@cayley.waterloo.edu (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:00:39 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

Unto Duke Palymar, and all visitors to the Rialto does Rhys ap Bledri send
greetings!

His Grace asks why rapier combat should be allowed within the bounds of the
Society.  These are my feelings:

1) Rapier combat DID take place in period - this can be conclusively proven. So
long as we are allowing people to maintain personnae from the age of Rapier
combat, it is only fair to allow them to participate in the combat appropriate
to their personnae, just as we allow those who have earlier to personnae to
participate in behourds (which is what rattan fighting does a very good job of
recreating...)

2) Rapier fighting is fun to watch! There's a lot more potential for flash and
flair than in the heavy lists - swirling capes, the clash of steel, and creative
off-hand parrying weapons can be really nifty to watch.

3) Most importantly, the people of the Society want it! The Society is here to
serve its members (otherwise, there would be no Society), and therefore must
cater to its members desires.  (Before anyone starts comparing computers and
popular fantasy to this measure, check them against point #1!)


Rhys ap Bledri, of the College of Skeldergate and the Canton of Schutzeheim

Ask me about The First Revolt in Ealdormere (the division of Septentria), Labour
Day weekend!