From: kellym@ether.UUCP (Kelly M McArthur)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.activism,alt.rush-limbaugh,or.politics
Subject: Transcript of Sunday's Presidential Debate
Keywords: transcript, obfuscation, confusion
Date: 12 Oct 92 03:15:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: ether.975
Reply-To: kellym@ether.UUCP (Kelly M McArthur)
Distribution: usa
Organization: HALF, Portland, OR

The First Presidental Debate				10/11/92

====================================================================


NOTE: This transcript was taken from the Closed-Caption 
data stream with the aid of my new TextGrabber 
(manufactured by Preferred Technologies, Dallas, Tx (214) 702-9191).  
Unfortunately, as is common with programs that are broadcast live, 
there are a few typos that happen when the operator gets behind and such.  
Also remember that this is taken ver batim, so tortured prose and 
bizarre syntax are the norm (especially for Mr.  Bush.)  

Consider this entire document to be [sic].  

====================================================================
Gentlemen, good evening. 
>> Good evening. 
>> The first topic tonight is  
what separates each of you from  
the other? 
Mr. Perot, what do you believe  
tonight is the single most  
important separating issue of  
this campaign? 
>> The principle issue that  
separates me is  that 5.5 Million 
people came together on their  
own and put me on the ballot. 
I was not put on the ballot by  
either of the two parties. 
I was not put on the ballot by  
PAC money foreign lobbyist  
money or special interest money. 
This is a movement that came  
from the people. 
This  is the way the framers  
of the constitution intended our 
government to be, a government  
that comes from the people. 
Over time we had develop aid  
government that comes at the  
people, from the top down, where 
the people are more or less  
treated as objects to be  
programmed during the campaign   
with commercials and media  
events and fear messages and  
personal attacks and things of  
that nature. 
The things that separates my  
candidacy and makes it unique is 
that this came from millions of  
people in 50 states all over  
this country who  wanted a  
candidate that worked and  
belonged to nobody but them. 
I go into this race as their  
servant, and I belong to them. 
So this comes from the people. 
>> Governor  Clinton, one minute 
response. 
>> The  most  important  
distinction in this campaign is  
that I represent real hope for  
change, a departure from  
trickle-down economics, a  
departure from tax-and-spend  
economics to invest and grow. 
Before I can do that, I must  
challenge the American people to 
change  and they must decide. 
Tonight I say to the president,  
Mr.  Bush, for 12 years you've  
had it your way. 
You've had your chance, and it  
didn't work. 
It's time to change. 
I want  to  bring  that change to  
the American people , but we must 
all decide first we have the  
courage to change for hope and a 
better tomorrow. 
>> President  Bush, one minute  
response, sir. 
>> Well, I think one thing that  
distinguishes is experience. 
I think we've dramatically  
changed the world . 
I'll talk about that a little  
bit later, but the changes are  
mind-boggling for world peace. 
Kids go to bed at night without  
the same fear of nuclear war. 
And change for change's sake  
isn't enough. 
We saw that message in the late  
70's  when we heard a lot about  
change. 
And what happened isn't misery  
index went right through the  
roof. 
My economic program, I think, is 
the kind of change we want. 
And the way we're going to get  
it done, is we're going to have  
a brand-new congress. 
A lot are thrown out because of  
all the scandals. 
I'll sit down with them,  
democrats and republicans alike, 
and work for my agenda for  
American renewal which  
represents real change. 
I would say, if you had to  
separate out, I would say it's  
experience at this level. 
>> Governor  Clinton, how do you  
respond on-- to the president on 
the-- you have two  minutes, on   
the question of experience? 
He says that is what  
distinguishes him from the other 
two of you. 
>> I believe experience counts,, 
about the it's not everything. 
Values, judgments, and the  
record that I have amassed in my 
state also should count for   
something. 
I've worked hard to create good  
jobs and educate people. 
My state now ranks first in the  
country in job be g Ross this  
year, fourth in income growth,  
fourth in the reduction of  
poverty, third in overall  
economic performance, according  
to a  major news emotion. 
That's because we believe in  
investing in education and jobs. 
And we have to change in this  
country. 
You know, my wife, Hillary, gave 
me a book about a year ago in  
which the author defined  
insanity as doing the same old  
thing over and over  again  and  
expecting a different result. 
We have got to have the courage  
to change. 
Experience is important, yes. 
I've gotten a lot of good  
experience in dealing with  
ordinary people over the last  
year, month. 
I've touched more people's lives 
and seen more heartbreak and  
hope, more brain and more   
promise than anybody else who  
have run for president this  
year. 
I think the American people  
deserve more than they are  
getting. 
We have gone from third to 14th  
in the world in wages in four  
years. 
Personal income dropped while  
people worked  hard  for the last  
four years. 
There have been twice as many  
bankruptcies as new jobs  
created. 
We need a new approach.
The same old experience is not  
relevant. 
We live nay new world and what  
works is not trickle down, not  
government for the  privilege of   
the few and a commitment to  
invest in American jobs and  
American education, controlling  
American health care costs and  
bringing the American people  
together. 
That is what works. 
And you can have the right kind  
of experience and wrong kind of 
experience. 
Mine is rooted in the real lives 
of real people and it  will bring 
real result physical we have the 
courage to change. 
>> President  Bush, one minute to 
respond. 
>> I just thought of another big 
difference here between me-- I  
don't believe Mr. Perot feels  
this way, but I did governor  
 Clinton does because I want to  
accurately quote him. 
I think  he said the country is  
coming apart at the seams. 
Now, I know the only way he can  
win is make everybody believe  
the economy is worse than it is. 
But this country's not coming  
apart at the seams, for heaven's 
sakes. 
We're the united states of   
America. 
In spite of the economic  
problems, we're the most  
respected economy around the  
world. 
Many would trade for it. 
We have been caught up in a  
global slow-down. 
We can do much, much better. 
We ought not to try to convince  
the American people that America 
is a country that's coming apart 
at the seams . 
I would hate to be running for  
president and think that the  
only way I could win would be to 
convince everybody how horrible  
things are. 
Yes, there are big problems,  
and, yes, people are hurting,  
but I believe that this agenda  
for American  renewal I  have is  
the answer to do it, and I  
believe we can get it done now,  
whereas we didn't in the past,  
because you're going to have a  
whole brand-new bunch of people  
in the congress that are going  
to have to listen to the same  
American people I'm listening  
to. 
>> Mr. Perot, a minute response, 
sir. 
>> Well, they've got a point. 
I don't have  any experience in  
running up a $4 trillion debt. 
I don't have any experience in  
gridlock government, where  
nobody takes spent for anything  
and everybody blames everybody  
else. 
I don't have any experience in  
creating the worst  public school 
system in the  industrialized  
world, the most violent  
crime-ridden society in the  
industrialized world. 
But I do have a lot of  
experience in getting things  
done. 
So if we're at a point in  
history where we want to stop  
talking about it and do it, I've 
got a lot of experience in  
figuring  how to solve problems  
and working out solutions. 
If it's time for action, I think 
I have experience that counts. 
If there's more time for  
gridlock and talk and finger  
pointing, I'm the wrong man. 
>> President  Bush, the question   
goes to you. 
You have two minutes. 
The question is this. 
Are there important issues of  
character separating you from  
these other two men? 
>> I think the American people  
should be the judge of that. 
I think character is a very  
important question . 
I said something the other at a  
where I was accused of being  
like Joe McCarthy because I  
questioned-- I put it this way. 
I think it's wrong to  
demonstrate against your own  
country or  organize  
demonstrations against your own  
country in foreign soil. 
I just think it's wrong. 
Maybe they say it was a youthful 
indiscretion. 
I was 19 or 20 flying off an  
aircraft carrier and that shaped  
me to be  commander  in  chief of  
the armed forces. 
And I'm sorry but demonstrating  
it's not a question of  
patriotism. 
It's a question of character. 
Bill's gotten on me about read  
my lips. 
When I make a mistake I admit  
it. 
He has  not admitted a mistake  
and I just find it impossible to 
understand how an American can  
demonstrate against his own  
country in a foreign land  
organizing demonstrations  
against it, when young men are  
held prisoner in Hanoi or kids  
out of the ghetto were drafted. 
Some  say you're a little  
old-fashioned. 
Maybe I am, but I just don't  
think that's right. 
Whether it's character or  
judgment, whatever it was, I  
have a big difference here on  
this issue. 
And so we'll just have to see  
how it plays out. 
But I couldn't do that. 
And I don't think  most Americans 
could do that. 
And they also say, it was a long 
time ago. 
Let's admit it then. 
Say I made a terrible mistake. 
How could you be commander in  
chief of the armed forces  
and have some kid say, when you  
have to make a tough decision as 
i did in Panama  or Kuwait and  
have some kid jump up and say  
I'm not going to go. 
The Commander-in-Chief was  
organizing demonstrations  
halfway around the world during  
another era. 
So there are differences, but  
that's about the main area where 
i think we have a difference. 
I don't know about -- we'll talk  
about that a little with  Ross  
here in a minute. 
>> Mr. Perot, you have one  
minute. 
>> Be I think the American  
people make their own decisions  
on character. 
And at a time when we have work  
to do and we need action , I  
think they need to clearly  
understand the backgrounds of  
each other. 
I think the press can play a  
huge role in making sure that  
the backgrounds are clearly  
presented in an objective way. 
Then make a decision. 
Certainly anyone in the white  
house should have the character  
to be there , but I think it's  
very important to measure when  
and where things occurred. 
Did they occur when you were a  
young person, in your formative 
years? 
Or did they occur while you were 
a senior official in the federal 
government? 
When you're a senior official in 
federal government  spending  
billions of dollars of  
taxpayers' money and you're a  
mature individual and make a  
mistake, then that was on our  
ticket. 
If you make it as a young man,  
time passes. 
I would say just look at all  
three of us, decide who you  
think will do the job be,  pick   
that person in November,  
because, believe me, as I've  
said before issue the party's  
over, and it's time for the  
cleanup crew. 
And we do have to have change,  
and people who never take  
responsibility for anything when 
it happens on their watch and  
people who are in charge -- 
>> your time it up 
>> my time is up. 
>> Time is up. 
>> More later. 
>> Governor  Clinton, you have  
one minute. 
>>  Ross gave a good answer, but  
I've got to respond directly to  
Mr.  Bush. 
You have questioned my  
patriotism. 
You even brought some right-wing 
congressman into the white house 
to plot how to attack me for  
going to Russia in 1969 and 1970 
when over 50,000 other Americans 
did. 
Now, I honor your service in  
world war ii. 
I honor Mr. Perot's service in   
uniform and the service of every 
man and woman who served,  
including admiral cou who was  
your chairman of the joint  
chiefs and was supporting me. 
When Joe McCarthy went around  
this country attacking people's 
patriotism, he was wrong. 
He was wrong. 
And  a sister from Connecticut be 
stood up to him named Prescott  
 Bush. 
Your father was right to stand  
up to Joe McCarthy. 
You were wrongs to attack my  
patriotism. 
I was opposed to the war, but I  
love my country, and we need a  
president who will bring this  
country together, not divide it. 
We've had  enough  division. 
I want to lead a unified  
country. 
(Applause) 
>> all right, we move now to the 
subject of taxes and spending. 
The question goes to governor  
 Clinton for a two-minute answer. 
It will be asked by Ann Compton. 
>> Governor  Clinton, can you  
lock in a level here tonight  on  
where middle-income families can 
be guaranteed a tax cut or at  
the very least at what income  
level they can be guaranteed no  
tax increase? 
>> The tax increase I have  
proposed triggers in at family  
infection of  $200,000 and above. 
Those are the people who in the  
19 80's had their infection go  
up while their taxes went do  
you. 
Middle-class people, defined as  
people with incomes of $52,000  
and down had their infection go   
down while  their  taxes went up  
in the Reagan- Bush years because 
of six increases in the payroll 
taxes. 
So that is where my income limit 
would trigger. 
>> There would be no tax  
increases below $200,000? 
>> My plan, notwithstanding my   
opponent's add, it triggers in  
at g Ross infection of $200,000  
and above. 
We want to give modest  
middle-class tax relief to  
restore some fairness,  
especially to family with  
incomes under $60,000. 
In addition to, that the money  
that I raise from upper  income  
people and  from asking foreign  
corporations just to pay the  
same income on their income  
earned in America that American  
corporations do, will be used to 
give incentives back to upper  
income people. 
I want to give people permanent  
incentives on investment tax  
credit, like president Kennedy  
and the  congress  inaugurated in  
the early  60's to  get industry  
moving again. 
A research and development tax  
credit, a low income housing tax 
credit, be a long capital gains  
proposal for new business and  
business expansions. 
No more trickle down, we don't  
need ac Ross the board tax cuts  
for the wealthy  for nothing. 
We need to say here is a tax  
incentives the old-fashioned  
way. 
I would like to create more  
millionaires than under  Bush and 
reagan but I don't want to have  
no growth in the private sector  
and that is what has happened  
we're  down  35,000 jobs in  the  
private sector. 
We need to invest and grow. 
>> President  Bush. 
>> I have to correct one thing. 
I didn't question the man's  
patriotism. 
I questioned his judgment and  
character. 
What he did in Moscow is fine. 
Let  him explain it. 
He did. 
What I don't accept is  
demonstrating and organizing  
demonstrations in a foreign  
country when your country is at 
war. 
I'm sorry. 
I cannot accept that. 
In terms of this one on taxes  
spells out the biggest  
difference between us. 
I do not believe he need to go  
back to the  Mondale proposals or 
the Dukakis proposals of tax and 
spend. 
Governor  Clinton says $200,000,  
but he also says he wants to  
raise $150 billion. 
The-- taxes people over $200,000 
will not get you one 50  
billion. 
When you  add  in  the other  
spending proposals, regrettably  
you sock it to the workingman. 
The old adage, we're going to  
soak the rich, we're going to  
soak the rich. 
It always ends up being the poor 
cab driver or work man that ends 
up pay the bill. 
I have a different approach. 
I believe  the way  to get  the  
deficit down is control the  
growth of mandatory spending  
programs and not raise taxes on  
the American people. 
We have a big difference there. 
>> Mr. Perot, one minute. 
(Applause) 
>> we've got to have  a  growing,  
expanding job base to give us a  
growing expanding tax base. 
Right now we have a flat to  
deteriorating job base, and  
where it appears to be growing  
is minimum wage jobs. 
We have to rebuild our job base. 
That is going to take money for  
infrastructure and investment to 
do that. 
Our  foreign  competitors are   
doing it. 
We're not. 
We  cannot pay off the $4  
trillion debt, balance the  
budget, and have the industries  
of the future and the  
high-paying jobs in this country 
without having the revenue. 
We're going to go through a  
period of shared sacrifice. 
There's one challenge. 
It has to be fair. 
We have  created a mess and don't 
have much to show for it, and we 
have got to fix it. 
And that's about all I can say  
in a minute. 
>> Okay. 
(Applause) 
>> next question goes to  
president  Bush for a two-minute  
answer, and it will be asked by  
sander Vanocur. 
>> Mr. President,  this past week 
your secretary of the army,  
Michael stone, said he had no  
plans to abide by a  
congressional mandate to U.S.  
Forces in Europe from 150,000 to 
100,000 by the end of September 
1996. 
Now why, almost 50 years after  
the end of world war ii, and  
with the total collapse of the  
soviet union, should American  
taxpayers be taxed to support  
armies in Europe when the  
Europeans have plenty of money  
to do it for themselves? 
>> Well, Sander , that's  a  good   
question, and the answer is, for 
40-some years we kept the  
people. 
If you look at the cost of not  
keeping the peace in Europe, it  
would be exorbitant. 
We have reduced the number of  
troops that are deployed and  
going to be deployed. 
I have cut defense spending , and 
the reason we could do that is  
because of our fantastic success 
in winning the cold war. 
We never would have gone there  
if we had gone for the nuclear  
freeze crowd and listened to  
those who want to cut  defense  
spending. 
I think it's important the  
united states stay in Europe and 
continue to guarantee the peace. 
We simply cannot pull back. 
Now, when anybody has a spending 
program they want to spend on at 
home they say let's cut money  
out of the defense department. 
I will accept-- and have  
accepted the  recommendations of  
two proven leaders, general  
Colin Powell and secretary Dick 
Cheney. 
They feel that the levels we're  
operating at and the  
reductionings I have proposed  
are proper. 
So I simply do not think we  
should go back to the isolation  
days and start  blaming   
foreigners. 
We are the sole remaining  
superpower. 
And we should be that, and we  
have a certain disproportionate 
responsibility. 
But I would ask the more than  
people to understand that if we  
make imprudent cuts, if we go  
too far, we risk  the peace. 
And I don't want to do that. 
I've seen what it is like to see 
a war, and to see the burdens of 
a war, and I don't want to see  
us make reckless cuts. 
Because of our programs, we have 
been able to significantly cut  
defense spending. 
Let's not cut into  the muscle  
and let's  not cut down our  
insurance policy, which is  
participation of American forces 
in NATO, the greatest  
peace-keeping organization ever 
made. 
Today you have problems in  
Europe still bubbling along,  
even though Europe is  going  
democracy's route. 
But we are there, and I think  
this insurance policy is  
necessary. 
I think it goes with world  
leadership, and I think the  
levels we've come up with are  
just about right. 
>> Mr. Perot, one minute, sir. 
>> If I'm poor and you're rich,  
and I  can get  you  to defend me,  
that's good . 
But when the tables get turned,  
i ought to do my share. 
Right now we spend about $300  
billion a year on defense. 
The Japanese spend around $30  
billion in Asia and around $30  
billion in Europe  Japan will  
spend-- Germany will spend about 
one trillion. 
They're in a position to pay a  
lot more than they have in the  
past. 
When they couldn't  we should  
have. 
Now that they can they should. 
We seem to have a desire to stay 
over there and control it. 
They don't want us to control  
it. 
I think it's very important for  
us to let them assume more and  
more of the behind and for us to 
bring that money back here and  
rebuild our infrastructure  
because  we can only be a  
superpower if we are an economic 
superpower, and we can only be  
 an economic superpower if we  
have a growing, expanding job be 
base. 
>> Governor  Clinton. 
One minute, sir. 
>> I agree with the general  
statement Mr.  Bush made. 
I disagree with we need 150,000  
troops to fulfill our role in  
Europe. 
We certainly must maintain an  
engagement there. 
There are dangers there and  
other trouble spots in the world 
closer to Europe than the united 
states. 
But  two former defense  
secretaries recently issued  
reports saying 100,000 or  
slightly fewer would be enough,  
including president reagan's  
former defense secretary. 
Many of the military experts I  
consulted on this agreed. 
We're going to have  to spend  
more money in the future on  
military technology and on  
greater mobility, greater air  
lift, greater sea lift. 
The b-22 airplane. 
We will have to do things that  
are costly and I don't believe  
we can afford not to and we need to  
keep 150,000 troops  in  Europe   
given how much the red army, now 
under the control of Russia has  
been cut. 
The arms control agreement   
between Mr.  Bush and Yeltsin,  
something I applauded. 
I don't think we need 150,000  
troops. 
Mr.  Bush talked about taxes. 
He didn't tell  you he vetoed the 
middle-class tax cut because it  
would be paid for by raising  
taxes on the wealthy and vetoed  
an investment tax credit paid  
for by raising taxes on the  
wealthy. 
>> All right. 
We go now to Mr. Perot for a  
two-minute question, and it will 
be asked  by John Mashek. 
>> Mr. Perot you talked about  
fairness a minute ago on sharing 
the pain. 
As part of your plan to reduce  
the ballooning federal deficit,  
you suggested we raise gasoline  
taxes 50 cent a gallon over five 
years. 
Why punish the  middle-class  
consumer to such a degree? 
>> It's 10 cents a year  
cumulative. 
It finally gets to 50 cents at  
the end of the fifth year. 
I think punish is the wrong  
word. 
Again, I didn't create this  
problem. 
We are trying to solve it. 
If you study our international   
competitors. 
Some of our international  
competitors collect up to $3.50  
A gallon in taxes and use the  
money to build infrastructure  
and create jobs. 
We collect 35 cents and we don't 
have it to spend. 
I know it's not popular, and I  
understand the nature of  your  
concern, but the people who will be  
helped the most pie it are the  
working people who will get the  
jobs created because of this  
tax. 
Why do we have to do it? 
Because we have so mismanaged  
our country over the years and  
it is now time  to pay the  
fiddler. 
And if we don't, we will be  
spending our children's money. 
We have spent $4 trillion worth. 
An incredible number of young  
people are active in supporting  
my effort because they're deeply 
concerned that we have taken the 
American dream  from them. 
I think it's fitting we're on  
the campus of a university  
tonight. 
These young people, when they  
get out of this wonderful  
university, will have difficulty 
finding a job. 
We've got to clean this mess up, 
leave this country in good  
shape, and pass on the American  
dream to them. 
We've got to collect the taxes  
to do it. 
If there's a fairer way, be I'm  
all ears. 
(Laughter) 
but, see,  let me make it very  
clear. 
If people don't have the stomach 
to fix these problems, I think  
it's a good time to face it in  
November. 
If they do, then they will heard 
the harsh reality of what we  
have to do. 
I'm not playing Lawrence Welk 
music tonight. 
>> All right, governor  Clinton,  
you have a minute, sir. 
>> I think Mr. Perot has  
confronted this deficit issue,  
but I think it's important to  
point out that we really have  
two deficits in America, not  
one. 
We have a budget deficit in the  
federal government, but we also  
have an investment, a jobs, an  
income deficit . 
People are working harder for  
less money than they were making 
10 years ago, two-thirds of our 
people. 
A $1600 drop in average income  
in the last two years. 
The problem I have with the  
Perot prediction is economists  
who have  looked at  it say if you 
cut the it this much this quick  
it will slow down the economy. 
That's why I think we shouldn't  
do it that quickly. 
First, get incentives to invest  
in this economy, put the  
American people back to work. 
We have to invest and grow. 
Nine Nobel prize winning  
economists and 500 others,  
including numerous democratic  
and republican business  
executives have endorsed this  
approach because it offers the  
best hope to put America back to 
work and get our infection  
rising instead of falling. 
>> President  Bush, one minute,  
sir. 
>> The question was on fairness. 
I just disagree with Mr. Perot. 
I don't think it's fair to slap  
a 50 cent tax over how many  
years for people that have to  
drive for a living, people that  
go long distances. 
I don't think we  need to do  it. 
I have a fundamental difference. 
I agree with what he's talking  
about in trying to get the  
spending down and the  
discipline, although I think we  
ought to totally exempt social  
security, but he's talking tough 
medicine and I think that's  
good. 
I disagree with the tax and  
spend philosophy. 
I don't  think  we need  to tax  
more and spend more and say  
that's going to make the problem 
better, and I'm afraid that's  
what I think I'm hearing from  
governor  Clinton. 
I believe what you need to do is 
some of what  Ross is talking  
about, control the growth of  
mandatory spending, and get  
taxes down. 
He's mentioned some  ways to do  
it, and I agree with those. 
I've been talking about getting  
a capital gains cut forever, and 
his friends in congress have  
been be telling me that's a tax  
break for the rich. 
It would stimulate investment. 
I'm for an investment tax  
allowance. 
I'm for a first-time tax--   
break for first-time home 
buyers, and with this new  
congress coming in, gridlock  
will be gone and I'll sit down  
with them and say let's get this 
done. 
But I do not want to go the tax  
and spend rout.
>> Let's go to the subject of 
jobs.
The first question goes to
president  Bush for two minutes
and john will ask the question.
>> Mr. President you came to St.
Louis to announce a lucrative
contract for Mcdonald-Douglas, 
in  today's Post Dispatch a
woman asked if she could ask a
question, she wanted to register
her concern about the lack of a
plan to convert our defense
oriented industries into other
purposes.
How would you answer her? 
>> I assume she was supportive
of the decision on Mcdonald-Douglas.
I assume she was supporting me
on the decision to sell the
airplanes.
It was a good decision, took a
little heat, but it was the
correct decision to  do. 
But we worked it out and we are
moving toward around the world
in a much more peaceful way.
We created jobs for the American
people.
Take a look at what the
president has proposed on job
retraining.
When you cutback on defense 
spending, some people are going
to be thrown out of work.
If you throw another 50,000
kids on the street recklessly,
you will put a lot of other
people on the work.
Look at the job retraining 
programs we are  proposing.
There in is the best answer.
Another one is stimulate
investment and savings.
We have got big economic
problems, but we are not coming
apart at the seams.
We are ready for a recovery with
interest rates down, and
inflation down, the cruelest tax
of  all, caught up with a global
slow downright now but that will
change if you if with the
programs I talk about and if you
help with job retraining and
education.
I'm a firm believer that our
America 2,000  education problem
is the answer.
A little longer run, but it is a
good program.
So her best home for short-term
is job retraining if she was
thrown out of work at a defense
plant, but tell her it is not
all the gloomy.
We are the united  states,  we
faced tough problems before.
Look at the misery index when
the democrats had both the white
house and congress.
It was just right through the
roof.
We can do better and the way is
not to tax-and-spend, but to
retrain and get the control of
the mandatory  spending programs.
I'm much more optimistic about
this country than some.
>> Mr. Perot?
You have one minute, sir.
>> The defense industries are
going to have to convert to 
civilian industries, and many of
them are.
There will be a significant
transition.
It is very important that we not
continue to let our industrial
base deteriorate.
We had someone who said it in
the president's staff, he  didn't
care if we made potato chips or
computer chips.
Anybody that cares about it
thinks a great deal.
Number two, you make more with
computer chips and 19 out of to
computer chips come from japan
and we have  given away whole
industries.
There is a lot of intellectual
talent in these industries and a
lot of these can be converted.
That is where the high-paying
jobs are.
We need a very carefully
throughout through face over. 
See, we practice 19th century
capitalism.
The rest of the worked practices
21st century capitalism.
I hope we can get back into it
later.
The rest of the world, the
countries and businesses work
together to  make  this transition
in an intelligent way.
>> Governor  Clinton?
>> We must have a transition
plan to convert to a domestic
economy.
No other nation would have cut
defense as much as we have
without that.
There are 200,000  people
unemployed in California alone
because we have cut defense
without plans to retrain and
reinvest in the technologies of
the future here at home.
That's what I want to do.
This administration may say they
have a plan, but the truth is
they have not even released all
the money, the paltry sum of
money the congress appropriated.
I want to take every dollar by
which we reduce defense and
reinvest it in technologies, in
transportation and communication
and environmental clean up
technologies. 
Let's build the kind of  economy
that the American people
deserve.
>> The next question goes to Mr.
Perot for a two-minute answer.
It will be asked by ann.
Mr. Perot, you talked about
rebuilding the job base, but is
it true that means that
unemployment will  increase and
slow the economy and how would
you specifically use the powers of
presidency to get more people
back into good jobs immediately?
>> Step one: The American people
sends me up there, the day after
election, I get with  the, we
won't wait until inauguration
and I'll ask the president to
help me and we will put together
teams to put together, to take
the plans that exist and do
something with them.
They are great plans lying all
over Washington that  nobody 
executes.
It is like having a blueprint
for a house you never built.
You don't have anywhere to
sleep.
Our challenge is to take these
things and do something with
them.
You want to put America back to
work, one task force to work on
that.
You have the  big companies in 
trouble, including the defense
industries, have another one on
that.
Another third task force on new
industries of the future.
Convert from 19th to 21st
century capitalism.
We have an adversarial 
relationship between government
and business.
The countries that are cleaning
our plate have a supportive
relationship.
Then have another task force on
crime, because next to jobs
people are concerned about
safety. 
Health care, schools,  and one on
the debt and deficit and in that
90-day period before the
inauguration put together the
farm work for the town hall and
give the American people a
Christmas present, show them by
Christmas the first  cut  at  these
plans.
By the time congress comes to
session, have the plans ready to
go in front of congress and get
off to a flying start in 93 to
execute these plans.
Now there are people in this
room and people on this stage
who have been in meetings when i
would say is this one  where we
are going to talk about or do
something about.
My orientation is to do it.
Put in place plans by Christmas and
be ready to go when congress
goes, nail these things, small
business, you need capital or
credit and  some  need  mentors or
coaches.
And we can create more jobs
there than any other one place.
Plaus.
>> This country needs a jobs
program and my first priority to
be to pass a jobs program and
introduce it on the first day  i
was inaugurated.
I would meet with the newly
elected members of the congress
and many other that I would
meet with between the time of
the election and inauguration
and we could prepare a jobs
program.
And a plan to control health
care cost and face in health
care  coverage  for  all  Americans.
Until we control that, we will
not control the deficit.
It is the null one culprit.
First we must have an aggressive
jobs program.
I live in a state where the
manufacturing job growth has far
out paced nation in the last
knew  years and we have had more
private sector jobs than in the
rest of the country where Mr.
 Bush's labor secretary said the
job growth has been enormous.
Give me a chance to create these
jobs in America.
We can do it, I know we can. 
>> President  Bush, one meant.
>> We have the plan.
Announced for what we can do for
small business.
I put forward things that will
get this country working farce
fast, some of which have been he
can code here tonight, more  on 
research and development, tax
credit for first-time home
buyers.
I'm going to say to Jim Baker
when this campaign is over,
let's sit down, you do in
domestic affairs what you have
done in foreign affairs, be the
kind of economic advisor of
the all of the domestic side of
the house, the includes the
economic side, the training
side, and bring this program
together, we are going to have a
new congress and we are going to
say to them you listened to the
voters, nobody want gridlock any
more,  and  so let's get the
program through.
And I believe it will work
because, as  Ross said, we have
the plans.
They are all over Washington.
And I have put ours together and
something called the agenda for
American renewal and it makes
sense, it is sensible, it 
creates jobs and gets to the
bait of the kind of jobs we need
and so I'll be asking for
support to get that put into
effect.
>> The next question goes to
governor  Clinton for two
minutes.
It will be asked by Sandy.
>> Governor  Clinton, when a
president running for the first
time  gets into the office and
want to do something about the
economy, he finds in Washington
there is a person who has much
more power over the economy than
he has.
The chairman of the federal
reserve board, accountable to no
one. 
That being the case would you  go
along with proposals to make the
federal reserve board chairman
somehow more accountable to elected
officials?
>> Let me say I think we want to
review the terms  and  the way it
works, but frankly I don't think
that's the problem today.
We have low interest rates
today.
At least we have low interest
rates that the fed can control.
Our long-term interest rates are
still pretty high because of our
deficit and because of our
economic  performance. 
And there was a terrible
reaction internationally to Mr.
 Bush saying he was going to give
us four more years of trickle
down economics, another Ross
the board tabs cut most of it
going to the wealthy with no
guarantee of investment.
I think the important thing, the 
important thing is to use the
power the president does have to
the assumption that given the
condition of the economy, we are
going to keep interest rates too
if we have the discipline to
create investment and reduce the
debt at the same time.
The American  people are 
hungry for action and the
congress is hungry for someone
that will work with them,
instead of manipulate them and
will not veto a bill that has
tax credits, as Mr.  Bush has
done.
Give me a chance to do that.
I don't have  to worry in the
near term about the federal
reserve.
Their policies are pretty sound,
it seems to me.
>> President  Bush, you have one
minute.
>> I don't think the fed ought
to be put under the executive
branch.
There is separations there, I 
think that's feign.
Federal reserve chairman Alan
Greenspan is respected and i
have had some arguments about
the speed in which they may have
lowered rates.
Governor  Clinton talks about the
reaction to the markets.
There is a momentary fear that
he may win and the markets went
down like that.
And so  I don't  think we can
judge on stock market.
The stock market has strong
since I have been president and
they recognize we have great
difficulties, but there are much
more optimistic than the
pessimists here tonight.
In terms of vetoing  tax  bills,
you are darn right.
I will protect the American
taxpayer against the
tax-and-spend congress and I'll
keep on vetoing them because i
don't think we are taxed too little,
i think the government is
spending too much.
Governor  Clinton can label it
tax for the rich, but  I'll 
protect the  workingman by
continue can to veto until we
get the new congress and we will
move forward on my plan.
I've got to protect them.
I would keep the federal reserve
independent, but we live in a
global economy.
These  interest rates we have  now
don't neighboring any sense.
We have a $4 trillion debt and
only in America would you
finance it 70% of it five years
or less.
So 70% of it is five years or 
less.
We have to four percent gap
between what we pay for he
treasuries and what Germany
pays.
That G.O.P. Will close because
of Arabs and folks in country
will start to buy German 
treasuries.
Every time our interest rates go
up one percent that adds $28
billion to the deficit or to the
debt, which of place you want to
put it.
We are sitting on ticking bomb
because we have totally mismanaged 
our  country and we had
better get it back under
control.
Just think if your own business
if you had all of your long-term
problems financed short-term,
you would go broke in a hurry.
>> We are going to move to
foreign affairs. 
The question , first question
goes to Mr. Perot for a
two-minute answer and sandy will
ask it.
>> Mr. Perot in the post cold-war
 environment, what
should be the overriding U.S.
National interest?
And what can the united states
do  and what can it afford to do
to defend that national
interest?
>> Well, again if you are not
rich you are not a position power.
I have one and one-eighth.
We have to have  the  money to  be 
able to pay for defense. 
And we have to manufacture here,
believe it or not folks, you
can't ship it all over seas and
you can't convert from potato
chips to airplanes in emergencies.
We  have got to make things here.
You can't ship them overseas any
more.
I hope we talk more about that.
Second thing on priorities, we
have got to help Russia succeed
in its revolution and all of its
republics.
Remember, we are thinking of
many  countries now.
We have to help them, that
pennies on the dollar compared
to renewing the world war.
Third, we have all kind of
agreements on paper and some
that are being executed on
getting rid of nuclear warheads.
Russia and its  republics  are out
of control or at best in weak
ebbed control right now.
It is an unstable condition.
We have every rich middle
eastern country over there
trying to buy nuclear weapons.
The will lead to a  migraine
headache down the road.
We need to nail down the enter
continental ballistic missiles
that can hit us from Russia.
We have some agreements on the
nuclear, but we don't have those
things put  away.
The sooner the better.
In terms of priorities, we have
to be financially strong, number
two we have to take care of this
missile situation and try to get
the nuclear war behind us and
give that a high priority, and
number three we need the help
and  support the Russia in every
possible way to become
democratic capitalist he can
societies and not sit back and
let those countries continue in
tour mail.
There are a lot  of old boys in
the military and like things
better the way they used to be.
>> In order to keep America the
strongest nation in the world we
need continuity and change.
There are three fundamental
challenges. 
The world is an you  been  certain
place and  we  need a new military
and national security policy
equal to the challenges of the
post-cold war era and a smaller
force but one that is more
mobile, and well trained with
high technology equipment.
We need to continue the
negotiations to  deplete the
nuclear collar arsenals in the
former soviet union and
proliferation of weapons of mass
destruction.
In this world economic security
is a whole lot of national
security.
Our dollar is at an all-time low
against foreign  currencies and
we must rebuild America's
strengths at home.
Finally we ought to be promoting
the democratic impulses around
the world.
Democracies are our partners and
reliable friend in the future.
Economic security,  strengths,
democracy.
>> We are still the envy of the
world in terms of our military,
no question about that.
We are the envy of the world in
terms of economy, in spite of
the difficulties we are having.
Our exports are dramatically up.
I may say to  Mr. Perot i
understand where you might have
missed it because there is so
much fascination by trivia, i
worked out a deal with boris
Yeltsin to eliminate, get rid of
entirely the most de stabilizing
weapons of all, the  SS-18, that
has been done.
And thank god it has because the
parents of these young people
around here go to bed at night
without the same fear of nuclear
already war.
So we have a good military.
The question is  get a new
military, we got it.
And they are keeping the peace
and they are respected around
the world and we are more
respected because of the way we
conducted ourselves.
We didn't listen to the nuclear
freeze crowd.
We said peace  through strengths 
and it worked.
And America understands that.
We are turned so inward we don't
understand the global picture.
We are helping democracy, the
freedom support act is something
i got through the congress and
it's a good thing.
I think you  agree with that--
>> Mr. President.
>> And we are going to keep on
doing that.
>> Governor  Clinton, you have
accused the president of the
coddling tie rants, including
those this Beijing.
At president, how would  you
expert u.S. Power to influence
affairs in china?
>> I think our relationships
with china are important and i
don't think we want to isolate
china.
But I think it is a mistake for
us to do what this
administration did when  all
those kids went out there
carrying the statue of liberty
in Tiananmen square and toasting
the Chinese leaders and told
them not to worry about it.
They  rewarded him by opening
negotiations with Iran to
transfer nuclear technology.
Now that voices throughout the
country have insisted we do
something about china, look what
has happened.
China has finally agreed  to  stop
sending us products made with
prison labor, because the
administration was pushed into
doing something about it and
recently the Chinese have
announced that they will lower
some barriers to our products,
which they ought to do since
they have a  $15 billion trade
surplus with the united states
under Mr.  Bush.
The second-biggest surplus of
all, second to japan.
So I would be firm.
I would say if you want to
continue most-favored-trade
status , observe human rights in
the future.
Open your society, recognize the
legitimacy of the kids that were
carrying the statue of liberty.
We ought to be able to pursue
the democratic interests of the 
people in china and they will be
more reliable partners in the
long run.
(Applause)
>> remember, you have one 
minute.
>> The action was the first
major country to stand up
against the abuse in Tiananmen 
square .
We worked out the prison labor
deal and we lowered the barrier
to products with Carla Hill's
negotiation.
I said let's keep the
most-favored-trade status
because you see china moving
toward a free market  economy.
To do what governor  Clinton is
suggesting you would isolate and
ruin Hong Kong.
They are making some progress,
we were the first ones to put
sanctions on.
We still have them on some
things.
Governor  Clinton's  philosophy is 
to isolate them.
He want to put conditions on
them and humiliate them and you
do not make the progress with
that.
I have stood up to these people
and I understand what you have
to do to be strong in this
situation and it is  moving. 
Not as fast  as you  like,  you
isolate chain a and we have made
a tremendous mistake.
I'm not going to do it and i
have had to fight a lot of
people that were saying human
rights and we are the ones that
put the sanctions on and stood
for it.
And you can insult Brent
Skowcroft if he  want to, he
weekends went to say you must
make the very changes they are
making now.
(Applause)
>> one minutes, Mr. Perot.
>> China is a huge country,
broken into many provinces  and 
has  some very elderly leaders
that will not be around too much
longer.
Capitalism is growing and thriving
ac Ross big portion portions of
china.
Asia will be our largest trading
partner in the future.
It will be a  growing closer
relationship.
We have a delicate tight wire
walk that we mug through at the
present time to make sure we do
not cozy up to tyrants and don't
get the impression that they can
suppress their people.
Time is  our friend there because
their leaders will change in not
too many years in the worst case
and their country is making
great progress.
One last part on the missiles.
I don't want the American people
to be confused.
We have written agreements, but
we have  a  huge number of enter
continental ballistic missiles
still in place in Russia.
The fact that you have an
agreement is one thing, but some
crazy person can either sell
them or use them.
>> The next question goes to
president  Bush for a  two-minute
answer.
>> Mr. President, how can you
watch the killing in bosnia and
the ethic cleansing or the
starvation and anarchy in
Somalia and not want to use
America's might to try and end 
that kind of suffering?
>> Both of them are complicated
situations.
I vowed something because i
learned something from Vietnam.
I'm not going to commit u.S.
Forces until I know what the
mission is , until the military
tell me that it can be completed
and I know how they can come
out.
We are helping.
American airplanes are helping
today on humanitarian relief for
sarajevo.
It is America in the  lead with
helping with humanitarian relief
for Somalia.
When you put somebody else's son
or daughter into war you have to
be careful and be sure that
there's a military plan that can
do this.
You have ancient  ethnic
rivalries that have cropped up
as Yugoslavia is dissolved and it
isn't going to be solved by
sending in the 82nd airborne.
And I'll dot that.
I'll use the moral persuasion of
the united  states to get
satisfaction in terms of prison
camps and we are making some
progress there and in terms of
getting humanitarian relief in
there.
Right now, as you know, the
united states took the lead in a
flow-fully operation there up in
the united nations. 
We are working through the
international organization.
That's one thing I learned by
forging that tremendous and
highly successful coalition
against Saddam Hussein, the
dictator.
Use, work internationally to do
it.
I'm very  concerned about it.
I'm concerned about ethnic
cleansing and concerns about
attacks on Muslims over there
but I must stop short of using
American force until I know how
the young men and women will get
out of there and  know what the
mission is and define it.
>> Are you designing a mission?
>> Ann, sorry.
Time is up.
We have to go to Mr. Perot.
>> If we learned anything in
Vietnam is that you first commit
nation before you  commit the 
troops.
We cannot sends our people all
over the world to solve every
problem that comes up.
This is a problem that is a
primary concern to the European
community.
Certainly we care about the
people, we care about the
children, we care about the
tragedy. 
But it is inappropriate  for us
just pause there is a problem
somewhere around the world to
take the sons and daughters of
working people, and make no
mistake about it, our forces are
not  made up of the beautiful
people.
Very unlike World War II when
F.D.R.'S sons flew missions,
everybody went.
It is a different world now.
It is important that we not
without thinking it through rush
to every problem in the world
and have our  people torn  to 
pieces. 
>> Governor  Clinton, one 
minute.
>> I agree that we cannot commit
ground forces to become involved
in the quagmire of bosnia or in
the tribal wars of Somalia.
I think it is important to
recognize that there are things 
that can be done  short of that. 
And that we do have interests
there.
There are, after all, two
million refugees because of the
problems in what was Yugoslavia,
the largest number since world
war ii and hundreds of thousands
of people  that  will starve or
flees to death this winter.
The united states could help it.
I applaud the no-fly
zone and  I think we should
stiffen the embargo on the
Belgrade government and I think
we should consider whether or
not we should lift the embargo
on the bosnians since they are
no way in affair fight with a
heavily armed opponents bents  on 
ethic  cleansing.
We must do what we can.
>> Moving to divisions in our
country.
The first question goes to
governor  Clinton for two minutes
and Ann will ask it.
>> Governor  Clinton, can you
tell us what your definition of
the  word  "family" is?
>> A family involves at least
one parent, whether natural or
adoptive or foster, and
children.
A good family is a  place where 
love and discipline and good
values are transmuted.
From the elders to the children.
A place where people turn for
refuge and people know they are
the most important people in the
world.
America has a lot  of  families
that are in trouble today.
There has been a lot of talk
about family values in this
campaign.
I know a lot about that.
I was born to a widowed mother
who game me family values and
grandparents.
I have seen the family values of
my people  in Arkansas and
the people in America that are
out there killing themselves
working harder for less.
In a country that has had the
worst economic years in 50 years
in the first decline in
industrial production ever.
I think the  president owes it to
family values to show that he
values America's family.
Whether they are people on
welfare, trying to move from
welfare to work, the working
poor whom I think deserve a tax
break to lift them above poverty
and working 40 hours  a  week,
working families that deserve
affair tax system and the
opportunity for constant
retraining.
They deserve a strong economy.
And I think they deserve a
family and medical leave act, 72
other nations have  been able to
do it.
And president  Bush vetoed it
twice.
With all the talk about family
values, I know about them, and i
wouldn't be here without them.
The best expression is that
tonight is my  17th wedding
anniversary and I would like to
wish my wife happy anniversary
and thank you, my daughter, for
being here. 
>> President  Bush, one minute. 
>> Well, I would say that one  
meeting that made a profound  
impression on me was when the  
mayors of the big cities,  
including the mayor of Los  
Angeles, a democrat, came to see 
me and they unanimously said the 
decline in urban America stems  
from the decline in the American 
family . 
So I do think we need to  
strengthen family. 
When Barbara holds an aids baby, 
she's saw a certain compassion  
for families. 
When she reads to children the  
same thing. 
I believe that discipline and  
respect for law , all of these  
things should be taught to  
children, not in our schools, 
but families must do that. 
I'm appalled at the highest,  
outrageous numbers of divorces  
it happens to families. 
It's happened in our ours, but  
it's gotten too much, and I just 
think that  we ought to do  
everything we can to respect the 
American family. 
It can be a single-parent  
family. 
Those mothers need help, and one 
way to do is it t is to get  
these deadbeat fathers to pay  
their obligations to these  
mothers. 
That will help strengthen the  
American family, and there's a  
whole bunch of other things I   
can't click off in this short  
period of time. 
>> All right, Mr. Perot, you  
have one minute. 
>> If I had to solve all the  
problems that face this country, 
and I could be granted one  
wish, is we started down the  
trail to rebuild the job base,  
the schools and so on and so  
forth, I would say a  strong  
family unit in every home, where 
every child is loved, nurtured,  
and encouraged. 
A little child before they're 18 
months learns to think well of  
himself or herself or poorly. 
They develop a positive or  
negative self-image. 
At a very early age they learn  
how to learn . 
If we have children who are not  
surrounding with love and  
affection-- see, be I look at my 
grandchildren and wonder if  
they'll learn to walk because  
they're always in some one's  
arms. 
And I think my gosh, wouldn't it 
be wonderful if every child  
had  that love and support? 
But they don't. 
We will not be a great  
country, unless we have a strong 
family unit in every home, and I 
think you can use the white  
house as a bully pulpit to  
stress the importance of these  
little children, particularly in 
their young and formative years, 
to mold those little  precious  
pieces of clay so that they,  
too, can live rich, full lives  
when they're grown. 
(Applause) 
>> new question, two-minute  
answer, goes to president  Bush,  
sandy will ask it. 
>> Mr. President  Bush, there's  
been be a lot of talk  about  
harry truman in this campaign,  
so much so that I think be  
tomorrow I will wake up and see  
him named as the next  
commissioner of baseball. 
>> They could use one. 
>> The thing Mr. Truman didn't  
have to deal with is drugs. 
Americans are increasingly  
alarmed about drug-related  
crimes  in cities and suburbs,  
and  your administration is not  
the first to have grappled with  
this. 
And are you at all of a mind  
that maybe it ought to go to  
another level, if not to what's  
advocated by William F. Buckley 
junior, legal situation,   
between there and where we are  
now? 
>> No, I don't think that's the  
right answer. 
I don't believe legalizing  
narcotics is the answer. 
I just don't believe that's the 
answer. 
I do believe  that there's some  
fairly good news out there. 
The use of cocaine, for example, 
by teenagers is dramatically  
down. 
But we've got to keep fighting  
on this war against drugs. 
We're doing a little better  in   
interdiction. 
Many of the countries below that 
used to say, "this is the united 
states problem. 
If you'd get the demand down, we 
wouldn't have the problem," are  
working cooperatively with the  
D.E.A. and the military. 
We're using the  military more  
now and our funding for recovery 
is up, recovering the addicts. 
Where we're not making the  
progress is-- we're making it in 
teenagers and thank god. 
But where we're  not making it is 
with the confirmed addicts. 
And I'll tell you one place that 
is working well, and that is the 
private sector. 
Jim Burke and the task force he 
has. 
You may know about it. 
I'll tell the American people,  
but this man said I'll get you  
$1 million a  day in pro bono  
advertising, something that's  
very hard for the government to 
do, and he went out and did it. 
And people are beginning to  
educate through this program,  
teaching these kids, you  
shouldn't use drugs. 
We're still in the fight, but I  
must tell  you I  think   
legalization of narcotics or  
something of that nature in face 
of the medical evidence would be 
totally counterproductive and I  
oppose it and I'm going to stand 
up and condition-- continue to  
oppose it. 
>> Mr. Perot, one minute. 
>> Any time you think you want  
to legalize drugs, go to a   
neonatal unit, if you can get  
in. 
There are between 100 to 200%  
cast up and downtown east coast, 
and the reason is crack babies  
being born. 
Babies in the hospital 42 days. 
Typical cost to you and me is  
$125,000. 
Again and again and  again the  
mother disappears in three days and  
the child becomes a ward of the  
state because he's e permanently 
and genetically damages. 
Just look at those little  
children and if anybody can even 
think about legalizing drugs  
they have lost me. 
Let's look at  priorities. 
We went on the Libyan raid,  
remember that one, because we  
were worried to death that  
Qaddafi might be building up  
chemical weapons. 
We have chemical warfare being  
conducted against our children   
all day every  day and we don't  
have the will to stamp it out. 
Again, if I get up there, if you 
 send me, we're going to have 
some blunt talks about this and  
get down in the trenches and say 
is this one you want to talk  
about or fix? 
Talk won't do it. 
There are guys who couldn't get   
a job on the third shift in a Dairy  
Queen driving B.M.W.'S and  
Mercedes selling drugs and  
they're not going to quit  
easily. 
>> Governor  Clinton, one minute. 
>> Like Mr. Perot, be I have  
held crack babies in my arms,  
but I know more about this, I  
think, than anybody else up  
here, because I have a brother  
who's a recovering drug addict. 
I'm very proud of him, but I can 
tell you this. 
If drugs were legal, I don't  
think he'd be alive today. 
I am adamantly opposed to  
legalizing drugs. 
He is alive today because of the 
criminal justice system. 
That's a mistake . 
What should we do? 
First we ought to prevent more  
of this on the street. 
30 Years ago, there were three  
policemen for every crime. 
Now there are three crimes for  
every policeman. 
We need 100,000 more police on  
the street. 
I have a plan for that. 
Secondly, we ought to have  
treatment on demand. 
Thirdly,  we  ought  to  have boot  
camps for first-time nonviolent  
offenders so they can get  
discipline and treatment and  
education and reconnected to the 
community before they are  
severed and sent to prison and  
learn how to be first-class  
criminals. 
There is a crime bill that  
lamentably was blocked  from passage  
once again, mostly by  
republicans in the u.S. Senate  
that would have addressed one of 
these problems that. 
Crime bill will be one of my  
highest priorities next January  
if I become president. 
(Applause) 
>> next question is to you, Mr. 
Perot. 
You have  two minutes to answer  
and john will ask it. 
>> Mr. Perot, racial division  
continues to tear apart our  
great cities. 
The late episode being this  
spring in Los Angeles. 
Why is this still happening in  
America, and what would you do  
to end it? 
>> I-- this  is a relevant  
question here tonight the first  
thing I would do is during  
political campaigns I would urge 
everybody to stop trying to  
split this country into  
fragments and appeal to the  
differences between us and then  
wonder why the melting pot is  
all broke tone pieces after  
November 3. 
(Applause) 
>> we are all in this together. 
We ought to love one another  
because united teams win and  
divided teams lose. 
And if we can't love one  
another, we ought to get along  
with one  another. 
And if  you can't get there, just 
recognize we're all stuck with  
one another because nobody's  
going anywhere, right. 
Now, that ought to get everybody 
back up to let's get along  
together and make it work. 
Our diversity is a strength. 
We've turned it into a weakness. 
Now, again, the white house is  a 
bully pulpit. 
I think whoever is in the white  
house should just make it  
absolutely unconscionable and  
inexcusable. 
And if anybody is in the middle  
of a speech at a, be you know,  
one of these conventions, I  
would expect the candidate to go 
out and lift him off the stage  
if he starts  preaching hate,  
because we don't have time for  
it. 
See, our differences are our  
strengths. 
We have got to pull together. 
In athletics we know it. 
See, divided teams lose. 
United teams win. 
We have got to unite and pull  
together, and there's nothing we 
can't  do. 
But if we sit around blowing all 
this energy out the window on  
racial strive and hate red, we  
are stuck with a sure loser,  
because we have been a melting  
pot. 
We're becoming more and more of  
a melting pot. 
Let's make it  a strength, not a 
weakness. 
(Applause) 
>> governor  Clinton, one minute. 
>> I grew up in the segregated south. 
Thankfully raised by a  
grandfather with  almost  no  
formal education but with a  
heart of gold who taught me  
early that all people were equal 
in the eyes of god. 
I saw the winds of hatred divide 
people and keep the people of my 
state poorer than they would  
have been be spiritually  and  
economically . 
And I've done everything I could 
in my president  Bush life to  
overcome racial divisions. 
We don't have a person to waste  
in this country. 
We are being murdered  
economically because we have too 
many drop-outs, too many  
low-birth-weight babies, be too  
many drug  addicts , too  much  
violence, we  are too divided by 
race, income, and region, and I  
have devoted a major portion of  
this campaign to going ac Ross  
the country and looking for  
opportunities to go to white  
groups and African-American  
groups, Latino groups and  
Asian-American groups and say  
the same thing. 
If American  people cannot be  
brought together we can't turn  
this country around. 
If we can come together,  
nothing, nothing can stop us. 
(Applause) 
>> Mr. President, one minute. 
>> Well, I think governor  
 Clinton is committed. 
I do think it's fair to note --  
he can rebut it,-- that Arkansas 
is one of the few states that  
doesn't have any civil rights  
legislation. 
I've tried to use the white  
house as the bully pulpit,  
speaking out against  
discrimination. 
We've passed two very  
forward-looking civil  rights  
bills. 
It's not going to be all done by 
legislation. 
But I do think that you need to  
make an appeal every time you  
can to eliminate racial  
divisions and discrimination. 
And I'll keep on doing that and  
pointing to some legislative  
accomplishment to back it out. 
I have to  take ten seconds here  
at the end, be the red light  
isn't on yet, to say to  Ross  
Perot, please don't say to the  
D.E.A. agents on the street we 
don't have the will to fight  
drugs. 
Please, I have  watched these  
people. 
The same for our local law  
enforcement people. 
We're backing up every way we  
possibly can, but maybe you  
meant that some of the country  
don't have the will to fight it. 
Those on the front lines, as you 
know, you have been a  strong  
supporter of law enforcement, I  
want to clear that up, have the  
will to fight it and frankly  
some of them have given their  
lives. 
>> Time, Mr. President. 
Now let's go to the subject of  
health. 
The first question for two  
minutes is to president  Bush and 
john will ask it. 
>> Mr. President, yesterday tens 
of thousands of people paraded  
past the white house to  
demonstrate their concern about  
the disease aids, a celebrated  
member of your commission, magic 
Johnson, quit saying that there  
was too much inaction. 
Where is this  wide  spread   
feeling coming  from that your  
administration is not doing  
enough about aids? 
>> It's coming from the  
political pros. 
We have increased the funding  
for aids. 
We've doubled it on research and 
on every other aspect of it. 
My request for this year was   
$4.9 Billion for aids, ten times 
as much per aids victim as per  
cancer victim. 
I think that we're showing the  
proper compassion and concern. 
So I can't tell you where it's  
coming from, but I am very much  
concerned about aids , and I  
believe that we've got the best  
researchers in the world at  
N.I.H. Working the problem. 
We're funding them. 
I wish there was more money but  
we're funding at far more than  
any time in the past and we will 
keep on doing that. 
I was  a little disappointed in  
magic because I said if you see  
something we're not doing get  
ahold of me, call me. 
He went to one meeting and we  
heard he was stepping down. 
He has been replaced by Mary  
fish beer, who electrified  the  
republican convention by talking 
about the compassion and concern 
we feel. 
It was a beautiful moment and I  
think she will do a first-class  
job on that commission. 
So I think the appeal is yes, we 
care. 
And the other thing is part of  
the aids is it's one of the  few  
diseases where behavior matters. 
And I once called on somebody,  
change your behavior. 
If the behavior you're using is  
shown to cause aids, be change  
your behavior. 
The next thing I know one of  
these act-up groups is out  
saying, be,  Bush ought to change 
his behavior." 
You can't talk about  it  
rationally. 
The extremes are hurting the  
aids cause. 
To go into a catholic mass in a  
beautiful cathedral in new York, 
under the cause of helping in  
aids and start throwing condoms  
around in the mass I'm sorry,  
i think it sets back the cause. 
We cannot move to the extreme. 
We've got to care. 
We've got to continue everything 
we can at the federal and the  
local level. 
Barbara, I think, is doing a  
superb job in destroying the  
myth about aids, and all of us  
are in this fight together. 
All of us care. 
Do not go to the extreme. 
(Applause) 
>> one minute, Mr. Perot. 
>> First, I think Mary fisher  
was a great choice we're lucky  
to have her heading the  
commission. 
Secondly,  I think one thing that 
if I were sent to do the job be, 
i would sit down with F.D.A,  
look where we are, and I would  
really focus on let's get these  
things out. 
If you're going to die, you  
don't have to go through  the   
ten-year cycle F.D.A. goes  
through. 
People with aids are more than  
willing to take that risk and we 
could be moving out to the  
population faster than we are on 
some of the new drugs. 
I think we can deale with the  
problem there. 
Can I go  back  to  racial  
divisiveness. 
All-time low in our country was  
the judge Thomas-Anita hill  
hearings and those senators  
ought to be hanging their heads  
in shame for what they did  
there. 
Second time,, there are not many 
times in your life when you get  
to talk to the  whole country. 
Let me just say this to all of  
America. 
If you hate people, be I don't  
want your vote. 
That's how strongly I feel about 
it. 
>> Governor  Clinton, one minute. 
>> Over 150,000 Americans have   
died of aids, well over 1.25  
Million are H.I.V. Positive. 
We need to put one person in  
charge to cut ac Ross all the  
agencies that deal with it. 
We need to accelerate the drug  
approval pros, we need to fully  
fund  the  act named for that  
wonderful boy, Ryan white, to  
make sure we're doing everything 
we can on research and treatment 
and the president should lead a  
national effort to change  
behavior, to keep our children  
alive in the schools,  
responsible behavior  to keep  
people alive. 
This is a matter of life and  
death. 
I've worked in my state to  
reduce teen pregnancy and  
illness among children. 
I know it's tough. 
The reason magic be Johnson  
resigned from the aids  
commission is because the  
statement you heard tonight from 
Mr.  Bush and the longest and  
best statement  he's  made  about   
it in public. 
I'm proud of what we did at the  
democratic convention, putting  
two H.I.V.-Positive people on  
the platform, and I'm proud of  
the leadership that I'm going to 
bring to this country in dealing 
with the aids crisis. 
(Applause) 
>> new question for Mr. Perot. 
You have two minutes to answer,  
and Ann will ask it. 
>> Mr. Perot, even if you've got 
what people say are the guts to  
take on changes in the most  
popular, the most sacred of the 
entitlements,  Medicare,  people  
say you haven't a prayer of  
actually getting anything passed 
in Washington. 
Since a president isn't a lone  
ranger, how in the world can you 
make some of those unpopular 
changes? 
>> Two ways. 
Number be one, if I get there  
twill be a very unusual and  
historical event, because the  
people -- (laughter) 
because the people, not the  
special interest, put me there. 
I will have a unique mandate. 
I have said again and again, and 
this really upsets the  
establishment in washington,  
that we're  going  to inform the  
people through an electronic  
town hall so they really know  
what's going on. 
They will want to do what's good 
for our country. 
Now all these fellows with  
thousand-dollar suits and  
alligator shoes  running up  and  
downtown halls of congress that  
make policies now, be the PAC  
guys and foreign lobbyists, what 
have you, they will be over in  
the Smithsonian, you know. 
Because we're going to get rid  
of them. 
And the congress will be  
listening to the people, and the 
American people are willing to  
have  fair, shared sacrifice. 
They're not as stupid as  
Washington thinks they are. 
The American people are bright,  
be intelligent, caring, loving  
people who want a great country  
for their children and  
grandchildren, and they will  
make those sacrifices. 
So I  welcome that challenge, and 
just watch, because if the  
American people send me there,  
we'll get it done. 
Now, everybody will faint in  
Washington. 
They've never seen anything  
happen in that town. 
This is a town where the white  
house says, "congress did it. 
" Congress says,, the white  
house did it." 
And I'm sitting there saying who 
else could be around. 
When they get off by themselves 
they say, "Nobody did it." 
Yet the cash register is empty  
and it used to have our money,   
the taxpayers' money in it and  
we'll get it done. 
(Applause) 
>> governor, one minute. 
>>  Ross, that's a great speech,  
but it's not quite that simple. 
I mean, look at the facts. 
Both parties in Washington, the  
president and the congress, have 
cut Medicare. 
The average senior citizen is  
spending a higher percentage of  
income on health care today than 
they were in 1965 before  
Medicare came in. 
The  president's got another  
proposal to require  them to pay  
$400 a year more for the next  
five years. 
But if you don't have the guts  
to control costs by changing the 
insurance system, and taking on  
the bureaucracies and the  
regulation of health care, and  
the private and public sector,  
you can't fix this problem. 
Costs will  continue  to spiral. 
Just remember this, folks. 
A lot of folks on Medicare are  
out there every day making the  
choice between food and medicine 
not poor enough for Medicare,  
Medicaid, not wealthy enough to  
buy their medicine. 
I've met them, people like Mary  
and  Edwin Davis in Nashua, New  
Hampshire. 
They cannot even buy medicine. 
Let's be careful. 
When we talk about cutting  
health care costs let's start  
with the insurance companies and  
the people making a killing  
instead of making our people  
healthy. 
(Applause) 
>> one minute, president  Bush. 
>>  Well, in the first place, I  
would like to clear up  
something, because every four  
years, the democrats go around  
and say, "hey, republicans are  
going to cut social security and 
Medicare." 
They started is again. 
I'm the president that stood up  
and said, "don't mess with  
social security." 
And I'm  not  going to, and we  
haven't . 
And we are not going to go after 
the social security recipient. 
I have one difference with Mr.  
Perot on that. 
I don't think we need to touch  
social security. 
What we do need to do, though,  
is control the growth of these  
mandatory programs. 
And  Ross  properly says, okay,  
there's some pain in that. 
But governor  Clinton refuses to  
touch that, simply refuses. 
What we've got to do is control 
it. 
Will it grow for inflation, let  
it grow for the amount of new  
people added, population, and  
then hold the  line. 
And I  believe that is the way  
you get the deficit down, not by 
the tax-and-spend program that  
we hear every four years,  
whether it's Mondale, Dukakis,  
whoever else it is. 
I don't believe we ought to do  
that. 
Hold the line on social security 
and put a cap on the growth of   
the mandatory programs. 
>> New question, it is for  
governor  Clinton, two-minute  
answer, sandy will ask it. 
>> Governor  Clinton, Ann Compton 
has brought up Medicare. 
I remember in 1965 when wilbur  
Mills of Arkansas, the chairman   
of ways and means was pushing it 
through congress. 
The charge was it socialized  
medicine. 
>> Be Mr.  Bush made that charge. 
>> He served with him two years  
later in 1967 where I first met 
him. 
The second point is that it is  
now sky rocketing out of  
control. 
People want it  we say it's going 
bouncers. 
Is not the Oregon plan applied  
to Medicaid rationing the proper 
way to do, even though the  
federal government last august  
ruled that violating the  
Americans with disabilities act  
of 1990? 
>> I thought the Oregon plan  
should at least have been  
allowed to be tried, because at  
least the people in Oregon were  
trying to do something. 
Let me go back to the main  
point, sandy. 
Mr.  Bush is trying to run  
against Lyndon Johnson and Jimmy 
Carter and everybody in the   
world but me in this race. 
I have proposed a managed  
competition plan for health care 
i will say again, you cannot  
control health care costs simply 
by cutting Medicare. 
Look what's happened. 
The federal government has cut  
Medicare and Medicaid in the  
last few  years , states have cut 
Medicaid. 
We've done it in Arkansas under  
budget pressures. 
But what happens? 
More and more people get on the  
roles as poverty increases. 
If you don't control the health  
care costs of the entire system, 
you cannot get control of it. 
Look at our program. 
We set up a  national system on 
health care costs tied to  
inflation and population growth, 
set by health care providers,  
not by the government. 
We provide for managed  
competition, not government  
models, in every state, and we  
control private and public  
health care costs. 
Now, just a few days ago,  a  
bipartisan commission  of  
republicans and democrats, more  
republicans than democrats, said 
my plan will save the average  
family $1200 a year more than  
the  Bush plan will by the year  
2000. 
$2.2 Trillion in  the next 12  
years, $400 billion a year by  
the end of this decade. 
I've got a plan to control  
health care costs. 
But you can't just do it by  
cutting Medicare. 
You have to take on the  
insurance companies, the  
bureaucracies, and you have to  
have cost controls, yes. 
But keep in  mind,  we  are   
spending 30% more on health care 
than any country in the world,  
any other country. 
And, yet, we have 35 million  
people uninsured, we have no  
preventive and primary care. 
The Oregon plan is a good start  
if the federal government is  
going to continue  to  abandon  its 
constituents. 
I say if Germany can cover their 
people and Hawaii, and  
Rochester, New York, can do it  
with two-thirds of the cost to  
the rest of us. 
America can do it too. 
I'm tired of being told we  
can't. 
We can  do  it  and we must. 
>> President  Bush, one minute. 
>> Well, I don't have time in 30 seconds or whatever, a 
minute to talk about our health care reform plan. 
The Oregon plan made sense but  
it's easy to dismiss the  
concerns of the disabled. 
As president I have to be sure  
that the waivers which we're  
approving all over the place are 
covered under the law. 
Make we can work it out, but the 
Americans for disabilities  
acts-- speaking about sound and  
sensible civil rights  
legislation, was the foremost  
piece of law  passed  in modern 
times. 
We do have something more than a 
technical problem. 
Governor  Clinton ticked on the  
things, take on insurance  
companies and bureaucracies. 
He failed to talk on somebody be 
else, the malpractice suit  
people, those who bring these  
lawsuits against frivolous  trial 
lawyers' lawsuits that are  
running the cost of medical care 
up by $25 to $50 billion and  
refuses to put anything,  
controls on these crazy  
lawsuits. 
If you want to help somebody,  
don't run the costs up by making 
doctors have to  have five  or  six 
tests, where one would do, for  
fear of being sued, or have  
somebody on the highway not stop 
to help someone because he's  
afraid someone will sue him. 
We're suing each other too much  
and caring for each other too  
little. 
>> Mr. Perot, one minute. (Applause) 
>> we've got the most expensive  
health care system in the world, 
it ranks behind 15 other  
nations. 
When we come to life expectancy, 
in 22 other nations when we  come 
to infant mortality so we don't  
have the best. 
Pretty simple, folks. 
If you're pay more and don't  
have the best, if all else  
fails, copy the people who have  
the best and spend less. 
We can do better than that. 
We have plans lying all over the 
place in Washington. 
Nobody  every  implements them. 
Now I'm back to square one. 
If you want to stop talking  
about it and do it, then I'll be 
glad to go up there and we'll  
get it done. 
But if you just want to keep the 
music going, just stay  
traditional this next time  
around, and four years from now, 
you will have everybody  blaming  
everybody else for a bad health  
care system. 
Talk is cheap. 
Words are plentiful, deeds are  
precious. 
Let's get on with it. 
>> And that's exactly what we're 
going to do. 
That was, in fact, the final  
question and answer. 
We're now going to  move  to   
closing statements. 
Each candidate will have up to  
two minutes. 
The order, remember, was chosen  
by a drawing, and Mr. Perot, you 
 are first. 
>> It's been a privilege to be  
able to talk to the American  
people tonight. 
I make no bones about it. 
I love this country. 
I love the principle its founded 
on. 
I love the people here. 
I don't like to see the  
country's principles violated. 
I don't like to seat people in a 
deteriorating economy and in a  
deteriorating country because  
our government has lost touch  
with the people. 
The people in Washington are  
good people. 
We just have a bad system. 
We've got to change the system. 
It's time to do it because we  
have run up so much debt that  
time is no longer our friend. 
We've got to put our house in  
order. 
When you go  to  bed tonight,  look 
at your children, think of their 
dreams, think of your dreams as  
a child, and ask yourself, isn't 
it time to stop talking about  
it? 
Isn't it same to stop creating  
images?. 
Isn't it  time to do it? 
Aren't you sick of being treated 
like an unprogrammed robot. 
Every four years they tell you  
how to vote and go back to  
business as usual. 
They told you at the tax and  
budget summit that if you agreed 
to a tax increase we could  
balance the budget. 
They didn't tell you  that same  
year they increased spending  
$1.83 For every dollar we  
increased taxes. 
That's Washington in a nut shell 
right there. 
In the final analysis, I'm doing 
this for your children, when you 
look at them tonight. 
There's another group that I  
feel very close to , and these  
are the men and women who fought 
on the battlefield, the  
children-- the families of the  
ones who died, the people who  
left parts of their bodies over 
there. 
I would never ask you to do  
anything for me, but I owe you  
this and I'm doing if for you. 
I can't tell you what  it  means  
to me at these rallies and I see 
you and you come and you  
want look in your eyes. 
And I know how you feel and you  
know how I feel. 
And then I think of the older  
people who are retired. 
They grew up in the depression. 
They fought in and won world war 
ii. 
We owe you a  debt we  can never  
repay you, and the greatest  
repayment I can ever give is to  
recreate the American dream for  
your children and grandchildren. 
I will give it everything I have 
if you want me to do it. 
(Applause) 
>> governor  Clinton, your  
closing statement. 
>> I would like to thank the  
people of St. Louis and  
Washington university, the  
presidential debate commission  
and all who made this night  
possible, and I would like to  
thank those of you who are  
watching. 
Most of all I would  like to   
thank awful you who have touched 
me in some way over this last  
year. 
All the thousands of you whom  
I've seen, I'd like to thank the 
computer executives and the  
electronics executives in  
silicon valley, two-thirds of  
whom are republicans who said  
they wanted to  sign on to  a  
change to create a new America. 
I'd like to thank the hundreds  
of executives who came to  
Chicago, a third of them  
republicans, who said they  
wanted a change. 
I'd like to thank the people who 
started with Mr. Pro-, who have  
come on to help our campaign. 
I'd like  to thank all  the folks  
around America that no one ever  
knows about, the woman who was  
holding the aids baby she  
adopted in cedar rapids, eye  
what, who asked me to do  
something for more adoption. 
The woman in the road in  
Wisconsin and wept because her  
husband lost  his job be after 27 
years. 
All the people who are having a  
tough time and the people who  
are winning and know how  
desperately we need to change. 
This debate has made crystal  
clear a challenge that is as old 
as America, the choice between  
hope and fear, change or more of 
the  same, the choice to move  
into a new tomorrow or to listen 
to crowd who says things could  
be worse. 
Mr.  Bush has said some very  
compelling things tonight that  
don't quite square with the  
record. 
He was president for three years 
before he proposed a health  care 
plan that  still hasn't been sent 
to congress, three years before  
an economic plan, and he still  
didn't say tonight that tax 
bill he vetoed raised taxes only 
on the rich and gave the rest of 
you a break, but vetoed it  
anyway. 
I offer a new direction. 
Invest in American jobs,   
American education,  control  
health care costs, bring this  
country together again. 
I want the future of this  
country to be as bright and  
brilliant as its past, and it  
can be if we have the courage to 
change. 
(Applause) 
>> president  Bush, your closing 
statement. 
>> Well, let me tell you a  
little what it's like to be  
president. 
In the oval office, you can't  
predict what kind of  crisis is  
going to come up . 
You have to make tough calls. 
You can't be on one hand this  
way and one hand another. 
You can't take different  
positions on these difficult  
issues. 
Then you need a philosophical--  
i call it a philosophical   
underpinning. 
Mine for foreign affairs is  
democracy and freedom, and look  
at the dramatic changes around  
the world. 
The cold war is over, the soviet 
union is no more, and we're  
working with a democratic  
country. 
Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, 
the Baltic's are free. 
Take a  look at  the middle east. 
We had to stand up against a  
tyrant. 
The united states came together  
as we haven't in many, many  
years, and we kicked this man  
out of Kuwait. 
And in the pros, as a result of  
that will and that decision and  
that toughness, we now have  
ancient enemies talking people  
in the middle east. 
Nobody would have dreamed it  
possible. 
And I think the biggest dividend 
of making these tough calls is  
the fact we are less afraid of  
nuclear war. 
Every parent out there has much  
less worry that their kids are  
going to be faced with nuclear  
holocaust. 
All this is good. 
On the  domestic side, what we  
must do is have change that  
empowers people, not change for  
the sake of change. 
Tax and spend, we don't need to  
do that anymore. 
What we need to do is empower  
people, we need to do better in education, we  need  
to do better in job retraining. 
We need to expand our exports,  
and they're going very, very  
well indeed, and we need to  
strengthen the American family.. 
I hope, as president, that I've  
earned your trust. 
I've admitted when I make a  
mistake but then I  go  on to help 
solve the problem. 
I hope I've earned your trust  
amp lot of being president is  
about trust and character, and I 
ask for your support for four  
more years to finish this job. 
Thank you very, very much. 
(Applause) 
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:52448 alt.politics.elections:17302 alt.politics.bush:9490 alt.politics.clinton:10984