From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Christians to the Lions!
Date: 15 Sep 92 23:50:18 GMT
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <65911@cup.portal.com> Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:

>Response:
>
>I question whether or not this is simply more attention to idiots and wonder
>when some really good stuff about Satanism will surface.  Then again, I see
>a piece of the 'coming out of the closet' thread here, so perhaps it is
>more substantive than 'find lives (revisited or no)'.

This is almost certainly more attention to idiots. In any case, I'll play.
As I said before, you're good at criticism, yet you add nothing substantive
to any discussion. Also you have not followed the group long enough to have
any idea weather this is a phase, or standard fare.
>
>I think of equal importance is the note that many regular members of
>alt.satanism see fit to respond to it, which I'd think would eventually
>get tiring, but I'm beginning to suspect that alt.satanism has
>elements of alt.atheism.2.

Indeed it does, what of it?

(many agreed with items & irrelavant nonsense deleted)
>Scott:
>
>While these theories have some merit, considering the teachings of 
>their (allegedly) chosen religion, an attempt should be made to be open minded
>enough to see their side of things.
>
>
>Response:
>
>Many Christians did not choose their paths and are actually Satanists, in
>that they are adversaries in the 'War of the Faiths'.  The mature Christian
>path involves choosing no side and attempting to resolve this war peaceably.
>
>I agree that 'attempting to see their side of things' is a very worthy
>approach.  I'd consider it more Christian than Satanic, however. ;>

Er- would you care to elaborate on this  "war of religions" tirade? 
Open-mindedness? Christian? You don't know much history (or current events
for that matter) do you?

>more potent a target.  By claiming to be a 'Satanist' one sets oneself
>up for it.  This burden used to be borne by 'Witches'.  Previous to that

Back to the "why-the-name-Satan" issue you crystal clutching new-agers are so
fond of. Satanists are hardly victims in any case. Sometimes they are 
tragically misunderstood, but in normal interaction, having the reputation of
a Satanist is quite empowering. (As is the "witch" image)

>it was the 'Christians', who replaced the 'Jews'.  This is the reason I 
>identify the lot of them as manifestations of the Great Martyrdom Cult. 

You know not of what you speak.

>Scott:
>Most "Satanists" are well aquainted with the messages of christianity. They
>have been preached to ad-infinitum, and are fed up with it. That is part of the
>reason they are Satanists instead of plain- old agnostics. Many Satanists are
>deeply offended by these posts, with good reason. 
>
>Response:
>
>There is no 'reason' for offense.  Offense comes from emotional wounds
>(insecurity, poor self-image, etc.).  If one is strong and emotionally
....
>Note that I do not say that they are 'undeservingly' resentful.  I think
>that what passes for 'religion' in the world today is no less than politics
>and coercive politics at that.  It makes sense that people are turning toward
>agnosticism, atheism and satanism, given the extreme oppression extant.

Semantics. You disagree for disagreement sake; how obnoxious.
>
>Scott:
>
>[most of the Satanist/Christian reversal exploration omitted - good idea]

hearty agreement here

>While christians have no problem explaining their beliefs, having
>the Satanic doctrines shoved in their faces is just too much...
>
>Response:
>
>I don't think I'd go this far.  Most Satanists haven't thought very much
>about their 'beliefs', I find.  Yes, they are more adept, intellectually,
>than the preaching Christians, but this ain't saying much.  I don't think
>that it is the fact of having these doctrines forced in their faces that
>upsets Satanists so, but the fact that they are the CHRISTIAN doctrines.

Partailly true. The fact that CHRISTIAN doctrines are forced on me in every-day
life does make them more obnoxious than, say discordian dostrines. The point is
that the our noses are shoved in this rubbish; NO other group does this. If
a Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist shoved my nose in his beliefs & told me I MUST
accept them for such & such emotional reasons I would treat him accordingly.
In fact, my responses to you are a perfect example of this. Here's a holier
than thou alt.magick reader who comes into this group telling ME what it should
be like. To hell with you; I do what I will (to borrow AC's phrase)

>Most Satanists are former Christians.  I am not, thus I think I have

this is QUITE the over-generalization; statistics? personal prejudice?

>Now consider this: you will never convert a satanist over USENET. You either
>
>1) are too infuriating
>
>2) look like a fool

>Response:
>
>This is simply untrue.  Along with the following criticism, this is 
>short-sighted.  I think that you are correct about the hard-core
>Satanist (or any hard-core religious individual), but the disoriented
>teen types are waiting bait for the preacher who knows the trips and
>traps to set out for the Christian-conditioned, unsure mentality.

Disoriented teen types are usually pretty wary of christian types. Ever go
to a heavy metal-concert where the xtians go to preach to the masses? Its
quite amusing to watch... As far as disoriented teen types on this group, I 
haven't met any yet, or seen any indication that there are any here. USENET
users are usually at least of college age...
>
>Scott:
>
>As most Satanists have chosen this path out of reason, these appeals
>will never work. As for those Satanists who are so for emotional reasons, their
>minds are as closed as that of the Born-again christian.
>
>
>Response:
>
>I'd like to see this substantiated.  My experience is, as I've said above,
>that most people involved with religion are in it for EMOTIONAL reasons.
>Even atheists (whom I do NOT regard as a religion yet) are there arguing
>AGAINST the mainstream culture for emotional reasons (generally because
>their experience with it was unsatisfying, emotionally, behaviorally,
>and intellectually).

Sure, you choose a religion that is emotionally satisfying to you, but many 
(I think most) satanists make a conscious and logical choice about this way
of life (ALL the satanists I know will testify to this, and MOST of the written
testimonials I have seen back this up)...


>Scott:
>
>If, as suspected, your purposes are more egotistical (look reverand; I 
>converted a Satanist!) forget it. There are no "lost souls," waiting to be
>found, in this community. For the masochistically inclined, we suggest
>self-flagelation. It costs less disk space, is probobly more satisfying, and
>is certainly less offensive to the general public...
>
>
>Response:
>
>I equate the preaching Christian with the Satanist by virtue of their
>adversarialism.  Yes, they lack the important values of individual choice
>and free thought, but you might cease argumentation against them, welcome
>them as brothers (most of them are sex-starved men), and instruct them
>in the ways of pure Satanism.  Perhaps that is what you are doing here
>after all.   Then again, alot of what I see here and in alt.atheism

ah a spark of wisdom...

>is simple, reactionary rhetoric.  The sincere people who wish to
>learn about Satanism are pummelled into retreat by the volume (in intensity
>and bandwidth) of verbal diarrhea.

I've instructed a few sincere types. Most of them go away after a short time to
do lots of reading, hence you don't hear from them for a while. Others, not
so sincere, refuse to do any reading, want it all handed to them on a plate
over usenet & are treated accordingly. I doubt very much that anyone is 
"pummelled into retreat" unless they specifically ask for such treatment.

>
>As I said, I think that this ought be a newsgroup for remedial thinking.
>Let the preaching Christians in, don't respond to their prods regarding
>the 'evils of Satanism', show them a FAQ which addresses these concerns,
>and then get into some serious discussions about the nature of Satanism
>today, how Satanism affects your lives, what different flavors of it
>there are, how the SATANIST distinguishes hirself (if she does) from
>other religions, etc.  etc.  I thought the thread on 'coming out of
>the closet' was a good idea, but I haven't read it yet.

good idea. hope the FAQ works. this is why its there. BTW I haven't seen too
many prods on "the evils of satanism" lately. In fact most of the stuff they
publish here is pretty low key. I rather enjoy baiting them occasionally & will
continue to do so as long as it amuses me(as will Dart/Dodger no doubt).
I shudder to think of the type of politically correct newsgroup you seem to
have in mind
>
>Alt.pagan tends to be one step above alt.atheism.3.  Most 'pagans'
>are too reactionary or step all over one another attempting to separate
>themselves from the NEW manifestation of the Martyrdom Cult - Satanists.

Martyrdom indeed...

>Alt.magick is MUCH more together, since it separates itself from religion
>completely and tends toward an art and/or science discussion.  In other
>words, it is largely technical with theoretical spicing.  If it gets too
>theoretical people get bored or upset rather quickly.

because 99.9% of magickal "theory" is complete and utter rubbish. Magick is
something that needs to be DONE, like Karate, or Dance. Other than the rudest
fundamentals, theoretical underpinnings are useless. (well gee-whiz, I wonder
what would happen if I draw the pentagram in red instead of white.?)

>I think some really good stuff is being discussed here in creating a FAQ,
>mostly because the Satanists are now discussing their own subject for
>a change, rather than attempting to flame off the 'adversary'. ;>

(I'm really getting sick of saying this) Your comments are irrelavant; you 
have not been here long enough to make this observation, must agree with you
on the FAQ though...
>
ye servante of ye great old ones...

-Scott
Newsgroups: alt.satanism