From: SJOSEPHS@130.187.170.178 (STEVEN JOSEPHSON)
Subject: Re: Pliestocene extinctions
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:16:19 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11


In <1992Sep8.171447.10398@nas.nasa.gov> wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov writes:

> STEVEN JOSEPHSON writes:
> 
> 	  Human groups have a long history of eating themselves out of
> 	house and home, from impressive examples like the many disappearances
> 	of large animals, to amazing ecological suicides like Easter Island
> 	and the Aztec civilizations.  
> 
> 			<<< Chaco canyon discussion deleted >>>
> 	
> 	Jared Diamond wrote more about this theme in his latest book "The
> 	Third Chimpanzee", and he came to the conclusion that the answer
> 	was education - if you inform people that they are irrevocably
> 	distroying their environment, they will cut it out.  I strongly
> 	disagree.  Every human group of which I am aware wipes things out
> 	to the extent that they are able to, with the only exception being
> 	if *individuals* benefit from preserving something.
> 
> 
> 
> (I tried to reply to Steven, but the mailer kicked it back.)
> 
> How is Diamond's book?  I enjoy his writings in "Discover" magazine and
> am now reading, in the new issue, about the New World population decline
> by 95% after the arrival of the Spanish.  I haven't picked up his book
> yet, and am kindof waiting for the more affordable paper back.
> 
> I'm with you.  I don't think education will solve the problem.  But it
> can't help.  Fishermen today continue to kill of commercial fish at a rate
> that we can't sustain.  They know that but can't stop because they have
> a note due on their boat, on their house, on their motor home, etc.
> They can't think 10 or 15 years ahead, only to the next year's harvest.
> 

The problem may be even worse than that - there is "the collective action
problem".  If you are not familiar with it, it is the situation that develops
when there is a "common good" that everyone can use but can be overused, like
the grazing on the town square.  If everybody were to agree not to own too many
sheep, the grazing will be good for all.  Problem is that you or one of your
neighbors correctly figures that one extra sheep won't hurt too much and would 
benefit you alot.  The cost is shared by all, but the profit goes to you alone.
Your neighbor figures the same, and pretty soon there is no grass left.  So 
what do you do if your neighbors start to put out extra sheep?  The only real 
option you have is to put out more yourself; the grazing will soon be gone and 
you have mouths to feed.  

Last quarter, Jared Diamond came and spoke at the University of Utah (which I
attend) - he and several others actually, in a week-long series of lectures.  
In preparation for his arrival, I read the 3rd Chimp - excellent book, filled 
with wonderful insights on one page and what I think are remarkably naive ideas
from time to time on the next, like the idea that people won't add sheep to the
commons if they know that they are contributing to its demise.  I had several 
chances to talk to Diamond at length, and Sarah Hrdy and I both put the 
same question to him about how to solve this collective action problem.  He 
really didn't have a better answer than education as a solution. I think, by
the way, that most of the 3rd Chimp was published as essays in various places,
but it is a wonderful book and more than worth the read.  Its pretty new, but 
your local library should have it by now. 

Back to the issue we began with though - I don't think that human predation is
primarily responsible for all the Pleistocene extinctions.  Probably on some of
the island, but less likely on mainland areas like the Americas and Australia. 
Many of these animals were big, dangerous, and used to dealing with predators. 
It would also likely be hard to make a living at hunting them, as it would
require specialized equipment, quite possibly coordinated action and even so
would still be very dangerous.  Also, it really doesn't make sence to
relentlessly pursue an animal that is getting rarer and rarer on the landscape
- you would starve between mammoths.  Humans may have been around to help
deliver the coup de grace, but humans just are not the blood-thirsty hurricane
that Paul Martin thinks we were in the terminal Pleistocene.

Steve 
Xref: sparky sci.anthropology:870 talk.origins:11306