From: trev@hubcap.clemson.edu (Trevor Bauknight)
Subject: Re: Confederate flag, Swastika, etc....and an apology (!)
Organization: Jes Grew Carriers -- Metaphysical Bunko Squad 
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 08:48:03 GMT

A civil attempt to clarify my positions and apologize:

Jones Murphy wrote, in his response to P.L. Cowan's article "A fresh 
start":

>>Failure of pro-Unionists to concede even the plausibility of Southern 
>>arguments is essentially as divisive as a Southerner waving the 
>>Confederate Jack.
 
>That last sentence is classic. I suppose that refusing to concede the
>plausibility of Hitler's arguments is also divisive?

I responded with an attempt to point out that there were other motivations
among white non-slave-owning Southerners than simple greed and racism,
contrary to Jones Murphy's assertions.  
 
Jones Murphy wrote in response to that:
 
>>>Your culture and heritage are built on the blood and suffering of mine. 

>>No it isn't.  My culture and heritage go back much further than the 
>>period of slavery in America, as does your's.  

>Hmm? Then why do you consider my statements about the Confederate Flag such
>a frontal attack on your culture and heritage?

I didn't have any idea why Murphy thought that I had identified my "culture
and heritage" explicitly with the Confederate flag, as he later said.  I
vaguely know why, now that I reread P.L. Cowan's analogy above.  I'm sorry
for that misunderstanding.

Simply, I was responding to his followup to the article "A fresh start," in 
which he asserted that the motivations of Southerners were simple greed and 
racism, and that considering the plausibility of other arguments, in an 
effort to avoid being divisive, was the same as considering the plausibility 
of Hitler's arguments for the same reason.  I tried to point out my opinion
that there were other motivations which I could understand, and that I
objected to being compared with Nazis for this reason.  My comments
about "culture and heritage" were in no way related to the discussion of
the Confederate flag.

It got ugly:

>>enough to die for it anyway.  I truly don't understand how you can explain
>>away their love of their place and their honor by replacing it with simple
>>greed and racism.  

>They say that love is blind, so I can only assume you really love the South.

(By the way, I do love it, but certainly not blindly.  Instead of despising
it because of aspects of its history, I love it in spite of them.  I won't
apologize for that...)
 
>>You are single-minded, thoughtless and offensive.  I am not willing to 
>>concede the plausibility of Hitler's arguments, and you're quite out
>>of line to suggest otherwise.

I'm sorry for my strong wording, but I had already attempted to gently
point out my objections, and reiterated my statement that I abhor
slavery and racism.  Jones Murphy merely accused me again because I
refused to denounce the CSA and everything it stood for.  I went off,
and I apologize for that.  

New stuff:

>What I've never understood is how the North managed to hold together during 
>the war.

Perhaps the abolitionists would have lost enthusiasm if the war had been
fought primarily in the North instead of in the South.  Sherman's campaign
to personalize the war for every Southerner were certainly effective.

>No doubt they probably were able to convince themselves they were
>fighting for self-determination, but what of the self-determination of the
>AFricans in their midst?

Self-determination certainly played a role in motivating Southerners then,
just as it does now.  I'm thinking of the recent attempts in the South to
prevent the rest of the country from continuing to treat the South as its
dumping ground, and of the fact that they are not really able to accomplish
this because of the rulings of centralized government, heavily influenced
by big-business interests outside the South.  This isn't such an outlandish
parallel to the situation in the first half of the nineteenth century, 
except that then, instead of trying to protect its environment, it was 
trying to protect its economy.  And yes, its economy was propped up by a 
decidedly horrible institution, but the interest in self-determination 
remains.  Some believe that the institution of slavery would have died a 
natural death without "agitation" from the North.
 
>Back to the issue of psychological comfort, it needs to be pointed out that
>non-slaveholding whites enjoyed numerous social perks at the expense of 
>blacks.

I hope it isn't racist of me to point out that some white Southerners,
even some slave owners, treated blacks as fellow human beings.  The evil
of legal ownership was indeed still present and resulted in a feeling
of superiority among whites, but not all of them were cruel and harsh.
Many of them were simply doing what they learned was proper.  Remember
that the South was (and is) an extremely religious section, and the
fact remains that slavery is sanctioned and its details legislated, by
the Christian God, according to the Old Testament.  One defense of 
slavery I read which is based on this was Albert Taylor Bledsoe's 
_Liberty and Slavery_.  He said it...not me.

>I stand by my original statement. The Confederate flag is an insult to the
>sensibilities of those who abhor the brutality and repression that it is
>emblematic of.

Would you say this of every Confederate flag, or just the naval jack which
has accumulated significant racist baggage in the hands of the Klan and 
others (oddly, this hasn't happened with the Bible and the Stars and Stripes,
which they also carry to symbolize their hatred.)  Is every symbol of the
CSA offensive to you, and if so, why are they more offensive than the 
symbols of the USA, which you also declared "morally bankrupt?"  My point
is that the flag of the USA is emblematic of a country filled, even today,
with brutality and repression; so why are 132-year-old symbols of a 
defunct country more offensive?
 
Trevor Bauknight         trev@hubcap.clemson.edu    ...gatech!hubcap!trev
 
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