From: frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: The Gardener story (and relevance)
Date: 23 Nov 1992 19:47:44 GMT
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
NNTP-Posting-Host: d012s658.ap.mchp.sni.de
Keywords: gardener Gardener story

#
>This is a story I heard in an Evolution class.  It has to do with the physical
>world and the magical world (sorta).  Before you complain that it is not
>relevant to abortion, read the relevance section at the end.  8-)
>
>
>This is for all you Believer's out there.

[ dubious analogy to belief in God deleted ]

>This story is to make a point, that it is silly to insist in believeing in the
>world of magic, when there is no evidence that it exists or has any effect on
>the physical world.  The relevance to abortion is that many people believe that
>a soul enters a human being at conception.  But there is no physical evidence
>of a soul or an effect on the real world that can be shown, so what is the
>difference between that and no soul at all?

There is no physical evidence for many things that human beings value, sonny.
I challenge you to set traps, use detection equipment, etc., and prove
that any of the following things exist, or don't exist:

	Love 
	An Ethic 
	Truth 
	Beauty 
	Good Art 
	Meaning 
	God 
	Faith	 
	Human Rights
	Good 
	Evil 
	A Soul 
	Your Own Sentience 
	My Sentience 
	A Dolphin's Sentience 
	A Cabbage's lack of sentience

See, all of these things exist for somebody, even though instruments cannot
detect them.  And I don't believe in the world of 'magic', dipstick.  I
believe in the data of immediate experience.  I believe that I love my family
for example - no scientific instrument can detect that, never mind explain
it, but there it is.

Similarly, you apparently find that a bundle of scientific laws explain the
Universe, and give a motive for some unlikely carbon molecules getting
together and deciding to become Albert Einstein.  Excuse me if I find your
explanation unlikely and asinine.

>It is silly to base our lives on unreliable religious beliefs.  Every indication

Yeah, it is.  Like your unreliable religious belief that a foetus isn't
sentient.

>we have is that consciousness resides in the brain.  Medical data demonstrates

I, for one, understand damn all about consciousness and where it resides.  
Please enlighten a poor Irishman.

>that organized workings of the brain don't start before the 24th week, yet some
>people still cling to the the belief that there is something prior to that time
>that is important enough that it must be protected over the desires of the
>mother.

I think it _is_ important, but nevertheless I think abortion should be legal.

>We do not consider it wrong when we have to have a dog or cat "put to sleep"
>because it is unwanted and we can't afford to provide a decent life for it.
>A fetus in the first 6 months is less aware than a kitten or puppy, according

ONLY BECAUSE YOU SAY SO!  DO YOU BELIEVE IN MAGIC???
 
>to medical knowledge, yet some people cling to the belief that a fetus can be
>aware before that time, or has a "soul", and thus is more important to keep
>alive than fully developed animals are.  People (== sentient) are more important
>than nonsentient creatures, even when the life of the person is not at stake.
>
>This story was presented to dispute the belief that sentience can exist in a
>fetus without our being able to know about it.  There is no reason to ban or
>restrict abortions in the first 6 months, and only slightly better reasons to
>restrict abortions after that.

There is no reason to restrict abortion at all, that I know about.  You have
every right to BELIEVE that a foetus isn't sentient - just be aware that it
is a most MAGICAL, MYSTERIOUS and MYSTICAL _BELIEF_ on your part (and we all
know that such beliefs are plain silly - NOT!).

>-Rob
-- 
Frank.ODwyer@ap.mchp.sni.de   "You take slaves when you make us free,
                               when you make us free your way"
                             World Party - 'Ain't going to come til I'm ready'
                   
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