From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Conflict could lay foundations for Islamic state in Europe.
Date: 18 Aug 92 03:29:38 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I waited to see what the reaction to this would be. Thanks for
your follow-up, Erland.

I see what's below as a pretty crude propaganda call for a new
Crusade. Let me see if I get the 'message' in this posting.

Here's an attempt at translation. 


>		    commentary by John Zametica
>
>  The future of Bosnia-Hercegovina is of interest and concern to both the
>European Community and the Islamic world, not only because of the raging
>civil war, but more significantly because of the very real possibility of
>an Islamic state being founded in Europe.

Yep. A new terroristic state in Europe, the beginnings of a new
era of conquests by Islam which must be crushed like a poisonous
snake.


> There are no Bosnians or Hercegovinians in the former Yugoslav republic.  The
>population is made up of Croats (17 percent), Serbs (33 percent) and Muslim 
>Slavs (44 percent).  Uniquely, the religious identity of the Muslim Slavs was,
>in Yugoslavia, recognised as constituting nationhood.

1. And how do Croats and Serbs define their identity if not on the
basis of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.[except for minor dialectical
differences].

2. Are they the only (unique) people who base their identity on
religion. Surely you can think of a few. I can think of at least
two.


>  But these Slavs are no different from other Slavs: they are racially either
>Serb or Croat, and they speak Serbo-Croat.  What sets them apart is their 
>adherence to Islam, embraced by their ancestors when the Turks invaded the
>Balkan peninsula.  And since religion is their sole defence for nationhood, it
>is that much more important to them.

And it isn't for Croats, Serbs, Pakistanis, Israelis, and Irish ?

BTW, there's no Slavic race.

Back to sarcasm; :-)..
And besides that, the fact that they embraces Islam is proof that
they are traitors. They should have become Orthodox and joined
the Crusades against the Turks. They form a fifth-column in
Europe, waiting to join the Turks when they invade Europe again.
And despite all their chances they have refused to renounce their
religion and join the Serbian fold. They are twice as bad as
the Croats who became Catholic. At least the Croats chose a 
European religion. 'They' might even be as bad as the Jews who
for centuries refused to become Christian Europeans, and look
what happened to them. Why should a better fate await the
Bosnians ?


>  When the media report that the "Bosnians" are defending and dying for the
>independence of Bosnia-Hercegovina, this should read "Muslims".  They are
>doing so for the creation of the first Islamic state on the soil of Europe.
>The continent already has, in Albania, a country with a majority Muslim 
>population.  But the Albanians are nationalists first and Muslims second.
>In Bosnia-Hercegovina, Muslims do not identify with anything other than
>religion.

Yes, of course. We wouldn't want another one (like Albania), would we. 
One is already too many in Europe. Europe should clearly stand
behind their Serbian brethren.

More simple facts:
They identify with being Bosnians. The Bogomils, in Bosnia became
Muslims. And they think they are Bosnians. That word has been
used for them for centuries. 

It's like saying Serbian for Serbs AND inhabitants of Serbia. So,
Bosnian now means people of Bosnia at the same time as 'the
Bosnians' who've lived there for centuries.

Similar statements can be made for other peoples; Montenegrins,
Bulgarians, Pakistanis..


>  Naturally, the Islamic world has paid great attention.  Since coming to 
>power in 1990, Bosnian Muslim politicians have been touring the Middle 
>East seeking support.  

Naturally. People in power are allowed to go to other countries
and make frienships. But of course, not to the Middle East, anywhere
but not there. That proves that they mean to set up another
Iran in the middle of Europe.

Maybe they should have gone to Mozambique, Argentina, Japan, Taiwan
where they would have found lots of sympathetic peoples ;-)

>Turkey is regularly making noises about its duty to
>"protect" the Muslims in Yugoslavia, and there are indications that Saudi
>Arabia might pay for a United Nations force in Bosnia-Hercegovina.

Turks wouldn't be making these noises were it not for the facts
on the ground. I suppose the Saudis willingness to pay makes the
whole thing a joke. No one else seems to be doing it. Who
armed the Serbs ? Who armed the Croatians ?


>on the black market.  Their brothers, in other words, are fellow Muslims, not
>the Serbs and Croats from whom they are racially and liguistically 
>indistinguishable.

I see, if Jews in France are racially indistinguishable from other
Frenchmen instead of looking like fellow Semites, then it's racism
if they give moral support to Israel or if they think Israelis and
other Jews are their brothers.

If Serbian chauvinism had not existed neither the Croats, nor the
Slovenes, nor the Bosnians nor the Macedonians might have thought
about the Serbians not being their brothers, and looking to form
 their independent states.

>  The Bosnian Muslims also have the highest birth rate.  It is only a question
>of time before they command the absolute majority.  Then what?  

Now we see the 'real danger'.....

It's a good thing he pointed this out. Yes, what then ? Would you
have Serbs living as minorities among such people ? No, you'd
ideally like to have a high Serbian birthrate to assimilate the
Bosnians and Croations and Macedonians.

Yes, look at the high birthrate among the Hispanics in America!
What dangers await us poor folks ! [sarcasm!!!!!!]

>The scenario 
>of a militant Muslim state in Europe is not a likely one.  

Ahhhhhhh...sighs of relief....

>Theirs is not a mullah-ridden 
society. Except in rural areas, the Muslims of Bosnia-Hercegovina
>are better educated and generally more westernised than their co-religionists
>anywhere in the Islamic world.  Equally, however, it is difficult to accept
>that they are genuinely oriented towards Europe.  For example, the Bosnia 
>Muslim intelligentsia tends to acquire its higher education in Middle
>Eastern universities.

Uhhhh..another source of danger. Going to the Middle East. While the
whole  world is becoming westernized, including the Middle East,
Bosnians will go toward someplace, no one knows where....and get
corrupted...

It's certainly a sign of impending danger. We should stop all
ethnic/religious/racial minorities all over the world from being
soiled by foreign and dangerous influences. We wouldn't want
blacks in America going to visit AFrica, would we ? We wouldn't
want Jews in America to go to Israel, would we ?

>  Politically, the evidence of any pro-Islamic, anti-western attitudes of the
>Muslim Bosnian leadership is difficult to verify.  

Ohhh.. good. It's difficult to verify. So let's cast about for
some innuendo and smearing to make sure we do a good job of
ringing alarm bells all over Europe about this cancer that's
about to engulf Europe.


>The Muslims are turning
>to European institutions such as the EC and the CSCE for help against the
>Serbs, and have been rewarded with international recogntion. The West, in turn
>has come to regard Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, the Muslim president of Bosnia-
>Hercegovina, as a skilful, moderate politician.

Surprising!  One of 'them', becoming a skillful, moderate politician ?
We can't really believe that one of 'them' can really be like
this can we, despite the evidence ?


>  Mr. Izetbegovic, by all accounts a deeply religious man, wrote in 1970 a
>pamphlet entitled Islamic Declaration.  He has never renounced this work,
>despite being imprisoned by the communists for it.

Ahhh...we knew it. He is not really what he seems. He's a wolf in
sheep's clothing. Imagine that..imprisoned by communists like
Sharansky and still refused to cave in.  What perils await us
next if he cannot be broken down and keeps believing in his
faith ?


>  It may be helpful to examine it in some detail as an indication of what
>he stands for.  This is clear from the first page: "The creation of united
>Islamic community from Morocco to Indonesia".  The tone of the pamphlet is
>imbued with praise for Islam.  A British reader would be itnerested to note
>that "only a few thousand genuinely Islamic fighters forced England in the
>1950s to withdraw from Suez".

Hmmmmm.. what could this mean ? Thinking that it might be possible
for Bosnians to be free of the 'Serbian Yoke'. What gall, he has.
Why, he should know by now that the 'yoke' is only reserved for
what Turks and Tartars do. Imagine, he thinks that the Serbians
might free them the same way the British left Egypt. Sure, he's
a complete nut-cake and like all 'dem' Islamic terrorists and has
no logic or knowledge. The fool thinks he can get the Serbs to
leave Bosnia alone, with just a couple of Bosnian fighters armed
with pitchforks. For sure, he thinks Allah will come to their
aid. Typical irrational moslem terrorist, isn't he ?


>  Turkey receives special contempt: "Turkey as an Islamic country used to
>rule the world.  Turkey as an imitation of Europe represents a third-rate
>country."

Spreading some Gulf Arab propaganda too. Maybe he expects some
financial reward for his efforts. Clearly, he's a corrupt man
or at least front-man for the upcoming Arab invasion of Europe.
Let's get the Crusades ready!!!


>  He goes on: "There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith
>and non-Islamic social and political institutions".  A few more passages
>are worth quoting: "The Islamic movement must and can take power as soon
>as it is morally and numerically strong enough not only to destroy the
>existing non-Islamic power, but also to build up a new Islamic one."  He
>stresses that "the Islamic order is the unity between faith and the social and
>political system."

Not unusual for an ethnic/religious group facing assimilation. One can find
alarmist reports from rabbis in America since last century; that Jews
are facing extinction and assimilation and that they should try
to return to their faith with renewed vigor etc.. It never harmed
anyone in the USA.


>  It would be premature to sound alarm bells, but the Muslim leadership in
>Bosnia-Hercegovina has yet to prove it accepts western standards of democracy.

Ohhh...good. No alarm bells, only smear and innuendo.

And it doesn't look like they're going to get a chance to prove it
either.

>Regards,
>Milan Pavlovic

To the humor-challenged (just in case there are any),this is
obviously lots of sarcasm.
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
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