HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dht@cs.mu.OZ.AU (Joyous Dave baby)
Subject: Re: KMT campus spying activities in the U.S.
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:12:55 GMT

nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:

>I suggest *you* shut your mouth up.  (And no, I am not the Canadian...)
>This is what the communist regime in Beijing says when other nations try to
>get them to improve their human rights record; this is what the rump Yugoslav
>government says when they support ethnic cleansing; this is what the Khmer
>Rouge says when they massacred 1/7 of the Cambodian population.

>When something has international ramifications or deals with a basic right of
>the humanity, it no longer is a domestic issue.

Human Rights according to whose standard????

Western Christian standard.  We, easterners, are not obligated to observe
standards that are set under Christian/Western influences; and that's why
UN now has an Asian Human Rights Committee, which is different from the
standards set for other countries.

Just for the record, I'm a Christian, but I don't believe Chinese people
*need* to follow Christian moral standards.

dave

-- 
1)-----------------------Rev 6:8 "... They were given authority over a quarter
of the Earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague, and wild beasts."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: tchuang@cello.ecn.purdue.edu (Tim D. Chuang)
Subject: Re: Taiwan News (late)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date:  7 Nov 92 00:43:57 GMT

kao@cae.wisc.edu (Chengheng Kao) writes:

>Are you a ROC citizen? Are you uncle a ROC citizen? If they are not, I would 
>want you and your uncle go F**k youself and leave my beloved country.

>Do you and your uncle ever pay any tax to support Taiwanese people?
>If not, I want you shut up and go scr*w youself.

I am glad that some people on this net have enough class to throw profanities
on the net.  My uncle is a resident of Tainan, Taiwan and he has suffered
from the ruthless violence of the Kuomingtang.  As long as the Kuomingtang
continues to violate the basic human rights of the Taiwanese people, I will
NEVER "shut up."

My uncle is still in prison and our family has not yet been informed of the
trial date of his hearing.  He is being held for a ludicrous charge of
"obstructing justice."  He was beaten and imprisoned even though he was 
acting to stop an act of police brutality.

If you believe police brutality should be allowed in a country, than I am
sorry that your beliefs and values could be so cruel.  Maybe you should apply
for a job in the PRC.  They love to hire people who think as you do.

People who think as you do, allow the Kuomingtang to continue imprisoning and
torturing people.

Tim Chuang
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: yuchao@mtu.edu (YUAN-NING  CHAO)
Subject: Re: "Do you mind if she's a virgin or not?"
Organization: Dept of ME, Michigan Technological University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 05:58:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.021750.27353@cs.cornell.edu> suho@cs.cornell.edu (Su-Ho Hwang) writes:
>wbchen@cs.cornell.edu (Wang-Bor Chen) wrote,
>
>>               +---+      +--+
>> Men always    |   |      |--|
>>               +---+      +--+         / |
>>                         ---+---      /  \  0  | 0     _|  |_
>>                         /  |__      /    \____|       _|  |_
>>                        / \ |                          _|  |_
>>                       /   \____                        |  |
>>
>>
>>
>>         WB,Chen
>>         -------
>>
>
>
>I think this discussion happened once before, and this was the conclusion
>then.
>

   Hello, I think the more precise conclusion should be:

   "Yes, men always kou3 shi4 shin1 fei1, so as women."

   In fact, when a woman says "No," sometime means "Yes" but 
   sometime means "No," and even worse, sometime means "Nothing." 
   (especially Chinese) 


        /     |                       /     |
       / / +--+--+     |     |       / / +--+--+       |     |
      / /  |  |  /     |     |      / /  |  |  /       |     |
     / /|  |  |        |--   |/    / /|  |  |          |--   |/
      / |  |+-+-+    | |    /|      / |  |+-+-+      | |    /|
        |  |  X      | |  /  |        |  |  X        | |   / | 
        | /  / \    -+-+-    |---     | /  / \      -+-+-    |----


   
    Have a nice day,


    Edmond Y.N. Chao
    yuchao@mtu.edu
    Dept of ME
    Michigan Tech. Univ.
From: v999qx29@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: "Do you mind if she's a virgin or not?"
Date: 10 Nov 92 00:44:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Nov9.220043.9968@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, pchang@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pei-Yuan Chang) writes...
>In article <sJB=H4+@engin.umich.edu> chyang@australorp.engin.umich.edu (Chung H
>siung Yang) writes:
>>
> 
>>    Anyway, my feeling is when I get married, I will want to be married
>>to a woman who have experiences, able to be assertive, and knows exactly
>>what she wants.  This way, life is much more fun.  If the person I married
>>to happen to be a virgin, fine!  If she remained a virgin because of her
>>own will and not societies norm.  If she is not a virgin, fine for me too.
>>It tells me this girl wanted to have sex and probably enjoys it.  Actually,
>>that  is not so bad.  In fact that is probably pretty good (for certain
>>people at least.)
>>
> 
>Honey, I agree with you.  Why marry a virgin (no matter male or female)?  They
>must be dull at lovemaking!
> 
>Besides, someone said that men will say they don't care whether their wives are
>virgins or not in mouth, but in their minds...Mm..., totally different.  Well.
> 
>To men: you honeys, we are going to 21th century...
> 
>--Christine


If your husband is just one of your "them" , be prepared that you will be
just one of his "them'.  Life is short , SEX is cheap and AIDS is everywhere.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: dht@cs.mu.OZ.AU (Joyous Dave baby)
Subject: Re: KMT campus spying activities in the U.S.
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:26:13 GMT

nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:

>And what do they need to follow?  Please elaborate.  I am merely talking
>about human rights here, not about morality.  Or do you mean that Asian
>governments should not need to give their citizens freedom of speech,
>freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, etc.?

No necessary, not to the extent where people can go on TV and have actual
sex in front of young children!  Or releasing albums with extremely
offensive languages, or have the kind of so-called "Western Freedom"
that you see in USA.

Freedom might be a good thing, but it has to be controlled.  And judging
by the society of US society and Chinese society, I definitely believe
that the US society has gone overboard.  Freedom to own guns, the next
thing will be freedom to kill whoever you want whenever you want.

Also, we are not talking about human rights here.  Someone was talking
about "monitoring citizens" as wrong, I merely say that:

1)  everyone does it
2)  it's not a human right abuse.

Just for the record, Australian government has cameras on streets
monitoring its own citizens!  It went further than that, but I won't
get into it.

-- 
1)-----------------------Rev 6:8 "... They were given authority over a quarter
of the Earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague, and wild beasts."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: shao@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (SHAO CHUNG-SHANG)
Subject: Re: Reduldant and stupid obligatory military service
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 01:55:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.132210.20093@doug.cae.wisc.edu> kao@cae.wisc.edu (Chengheng Kao) writes:
>
>In article <1992Nov7.230855.6437@hellgate.utah.edu>, tsay%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Chey-Woei Tsay) writes:
>|> I just read the book "Subtle is the Load -- The Science and the Life of
>|> Albert Einstein" written by A. Pais. According to the book, Einstein
>|> also managed to avoid the military service (German). He did this because
>|> he was terrified by the soldiers in a parade who followed the line
>|> without own thought.
>|> 
>|> Any comment?
>|> 
>|> tsay
>
>It is not exactly right to compare Einstein to German army in late 19th
> centry, early 20th centry with ROC citizen to the ROC army now.
>
>Remenber Einstein is a Jew and the German were not very kind to Jew. Second,
>the German army was loyal the the king of German not to the people at that
>time. ( I hope I remenber the  German history correctly.) Third, the German
>army was an offensive force and the ROC is a offensive force. In my opion, the
>third point makes the greatest difference, an offensive force is going to
>start a war , to start the killing, but a defensive force is to protect their
>homeland, protect its family and wife.
>
>
>Judging from the circumstances, I don't blame Einstein had avoided
> the service. Of course, this is my personal opinion. 

i think first of all: Einstein was a human being, he could do something wrong.

Einstein supported the war action on german and japan in world war two, 
evan he was against wars before and after.  he also signed the document
supporting to develop nuclier bomb against nazi.
you are right.  different situations should have different standards.

cs shao.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: dht@cs.mu.OZ.AU (Joyous Dave baby)
Subject: Re: KMT campus spying activities in the U.S.
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 11:42:57 GMT

I dare Tim Chuang (and others who agree with him) to name *ONE* country in
the world which did not spy on their citizens involved in anti-government
activities overseas!

(of course, I don't have to remind you of the publicity of Clinton's anti-US
activity in UK.)

-- 
1)-----------------------Rev 6:8 "... They were given authority over a quarter
of the Earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague, and wild beasts."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: chyang@australorp.engin.umich.edu (Chung Hsiung Yang)
Subject: Re: "Do you mind if she's a virgin or not?"
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 15:31:30 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: chyang@australorp.engin.umich.edu


In article <1992Nov9.193707.6222@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, pchang@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pei-Yuan Chang) writes:
> Interesting and exciting topic to you men, huh?  Well, just one of my male
> friends told me that he minds very much about whether his future wife is a
> virgin or not.  "How could you check it?  You are not a Gynecologist!"  I said.
> "Well, you know, she will bleed at the first time of lovemaking if she's a 
> virgin."
> 
> :o!  Ha, my goodness!  Is the guy from 18 century?  According to Gynecologists'
> research, bleeding can not be used as an evidence of virgin.  Some women may
> not bleeding at their first time even though they are virgins.  Some physical
> incidents may damage the completeness of the "cherry".  My point is, is
> virgin or not really so important to you men?  My friend sweared to me that 99%
> men care it very much.  Really?  I thought people are getting rid of the
> stereotype.  Any comment?

	99%???  I guess that I am in the minority 1% then.  I really don't
know if virginity is that improtant.  In the old days when woman used to
be properties of man, that would have been justified.  I guess the man
wanted their properities in prestine condition when they get it.  

	No flames please.  I don't know who made up the above stupid 
ideal.  It wasn't like this in Tang Dynasty.  In that period woman could 
get divorced if they wanted to and get remmaried again if they wanted to.
I guess that is why China re-gressed over time since the Tang.

	Anyway, my feeling is when I get married, I will want to be married
to a woman who have experiences, able to be assertive, and knows exactly 
what she wants.  This way, life is much more fun.  If the person I married
to happen to be a virgin, fine!  If she remained a virgin because of her
own will and not societies norm.  If she is not a virgin, fine for me too.
It tells me this girl wanted to have sex and probably enjoys it.  Actually,
that  is not so bad.  In fact that is probably pretty good (for certain 
people at least.)  

	I don't know if I agree with the old way of thinking.  I think 
it is too male-chauvinistic and selfish to expect a girl to remain a 
virgin.  It seems to me this kind of people wanted a wife to be their
trophy or house decore and not a partner in life.  

	I don't know if anyone agrees with my thinking, but I want to 
be married to a girl who will be my best friend.  This way, life will
be much more fun.

- C. Yang    
> 
> My advice, never ever ask and check ur wife or girlfriend for whether she's
> virgin or not.  Why asking for troubles for yourself?  Life is short, just 
> enjoy...
> 
> --Christine, the feminist.
From: li@sicvax.enet.dec.com (Tong-Kang Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Taiwan News (late)
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:08:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: nntpd.1992Nov5.163107.10146
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Nov5.124418.15302@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, tchuang@cello.ecn.purdue.edu (Tim D. Chuang) writes...
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|	INVESTIGATION BUREAU ADMITS SPYING ON CHEN IN AMERICA		|
>|	PROFESSOR HO SHOCKED BY IB OPERATIONS ON US CAMPUSES		|
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>	<Taipei; By Reporter Tseng-chih Chen>	Professor Ho Teh-fen of
>National Taiwan University, concurrent president of Higher Education Reform
>Association, paid a visit to Tu-chen Detention Center on May 10, 1991 to
                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>see Mr. Cheng-jan Chen and the other three persons accused by the 
>Investigation Bureau of sedition.  She severely criticized the ruling party
>(KMT) for its wanton accusation of such a serious crime.  She also criticized
>the Investigation Bureau for its callous admission of the agency's spying
>on Mr. Chen when he was studying in the United States.  She stressed that
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>should this spying activity prove to be true, the United States of America
>ought to re-examine its acquiescence of allowing the Kuomintang (KMT) to
>invade its campuses and jeopardize the academic freedom in American
>universities.
> 
><Source: Independence Weekly, Taipei, No. 102 May 17, 1991>
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^      
>============================================================================
>
>This is the 1990's. <- Mr. Chuang's comments.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mr. Chuang provided the above story to prove the KMT's spying activity still
happens in the 90s. Maybe. But just based on the story, it is clearly that
spying on Mr. Chen happened before 1990. How old this Mr. Chen? And what 
year he was a student at UCLA? But Mr. Chuang is using the date of report, 
May 1991, to confuse the readers .

Again the story can not support his claim in his previous article that those 
people who disagree with him are on the KMT's payroll without providing the 
evidence. To me, that only shows he is probably as bad as KMT - twist the
story.
From: wbchen@cs.cornell.edu (Wang-Bor Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: "Do you mind if she's a virgin or not?"
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:44:49 GMT
Organization: Cornell University, CS Dept., Ithaca, NY


               +---+      +--+
 Men always    |   |      |--|
               +---+      +--+         / |
                         ---+---      /  \  0  | 0     _|  |_
                         /  |__      /    \____|       _|  |_
                        / \ |                          _|  |_
                       /   \____                        |  |



         WB,Chen
         -------
From: mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Iunn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: KMT campus spies in National Chiao-Tong University
Date: 5 Nov 1992 09:22:17 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

I am posting ths following artilce for  Professor  Su  Yu-Teh  of
National Chiao-Tung University.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 1991 20:35 U
From: YTSU <@BITNET.CC.CMU.EDU:YTSU@TWNCTU01.BITNET>

An  Investigation  Bureau's  agent  was  caught   at   Chiao-Tung
University(CTU) in Hsinchu, Taiwan, yesterday.

The agent is a member of CTU's Taiwan Research(TR) Club. In order 
to be accepted into the club, he  told
the  students  in  CTU  that  he  was a graduate student from the
neighboring Ching-Hwa Univ. and was admitted as a member. The  TR
Club   recently  learned  from  fellow students at Ching-Hwa that
there was no such person in their school.  Yesterday, the agent  
was  invited  to
the   university,  unaware  of  his   being   detected,  and  was
unable to answer various questions related to his claim.

This noon, a press conference was held at CTU.  The chief of IB's
Hsinchu  branch   apologized   to  the  students  of  CTU, saying
that the agent's activities in CTU was not under IB's  order  and
it  was    purely  a personal   misconduct.(It  sounds  familiar,
doesn't it  ?)  However,  there are  new  evidences  showing that
the university knew about the IB's activities on campus.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: tchuang@cello.ecn.purdue.edu (Tim D. Chuang)
Subject: Re: KMT campus spying activities in the U.S.
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date:  7 Nov 92 15:29:15 GMT

Is the Kuomingtang justified to abuse human rights just because other
countries do it?  Are any countries justified to abuse human rights?  If
you believe human rights violations are a necessary evil, what would you 
think if your your own rights are violated?  Would you be willing to just 
take it and assume that it is a part of the natural order of things?

Many countries do abuse the rights of their citizens.  That is why Amnesty
International has a human rights report on every nation-state in the world.
It is a FACT that some countries abuse the rights of their citizens more 
than others.  In the United States, your record may be looked up and even
used against you in a court of law, but the United States also has a bill
of rights which often throws out evidence taken from citizens illegally.

A country like Sweden has imposed a mandatory draft.  According to Amnesty
International, the persecution of one or two draft dodgers are the primary
abuses of human rights in that country.  Yet, the Kuomingtang control the
media.  Freedom of speech is still a myth in Taiwan.  If a competing 
television station attempts to report a different version of Taiwan news,
their wires get cut.  A "liscence" from the Kuomingtang to broadcast news will
never come if they dare to criticize the Kuomingtang.  The KMT controls the 
government and all its agencies.  

It is a documented fact that the Kuomingtang have implemented a spy network 
in the United States to silence their critics.  One can freely criticize the 
United States and their leaders within the United States.  Though the society 
in Taiwan is opening up, if you are denying the fact that critics of the 
Kuomingtang were not persecuted, jailed and killed in numerous numbers, than 
you are denying facts.  Critics within Taiwan are still beaten and 
imprisoned.  Acts of police brutality are tolerated and accepted by
the Kuomingtang.  They are even instigated.  In the United States, an act
of police brutality reaches nation wide attention if it is every publicized.
It is seen as a problem which must be dealt with by its citizens.

It seems as if many of you who post wish to deny that the act even happened.
If you follow your line of reasoning, you are accepting blatant human rights
violations and you will allow the cycle of abuses to continue.

Tim Chuang
From: ychen@sp92.csrd.uiuc.edu (Yung-Chin Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: KMT campus spying activities in the U.S.
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:25:10 GMT
	<tchuang.721150155@cello.ecn.purdue.edu>
	<4341@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> <kqB=SB@engin.umich.edu>
Organization: /homes/ychen/.organization

In article <kqB=SB@engin.umich.edu> chyang@australorp.engin.umich.edu (Chung Hsiung Yang) writes:

>  "KMT brain washed Chinese?"  I don't know If I am one of them or not.
> All I know is that we are trying to improve our society with the installation
                     ^^
> of democracy while other people are trying to take it away with violence.  

Just some questions about your statement:

Who are "we"? Do they include the KMT party? 
What did you do to improve the democracy? Show some facts. 

ychen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Subject: Re: KMT campus spying activities in the U.S.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 18:21:24 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <9231614.118@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> dht@cs.mu.OZ.AU (Joyous Dave baby) writes:
>nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>
>>I suggest *you* shut your mouth up.  (And no, I am not the Canadian...)
>>This is what the communist regime in Beijing says when other nations try to
>>get them to improve their human rights record; this is what the rump Yugoslav
>>government says when they support ethnic cleansing; this is what the Khmer
>>Rouge says when they massacred 1/7 of the Cambodian population.
>
>>When something has international ramifications or deals with a basic right of
>>the humanity, it no longer is a domestic issue.
>
>Human Rights according to whose standard????
>
>Western Christian standard.  We, easterners, are not obligated to observe
>standards that are set under Christian/Western influences; and that's why
>UN now has an Asian Human Rights Committee, which is different from the
>standards set for other countries.

Well, I am "the Canadian" (even though I am not Canadian :-)..)  I suppose
this guy is quite right that he is under no obligation to adopt
"Western Christian (???) standards" about human rights (though again,
if he looks around, he will probably find quite a few Christians with
different views, more akin to his own, on that subject... :-))

So, nobody asks him to believe in free speech, and I am quite
willing to recognize that the day I go to China, he will have every
right to have me keep my mouth shut.

HOWEVER, he comes out of his separate universe into mine, he takes
benefit of the right to free speech given to him in my universe to
insult me and them he proceeds to tell me to shut up, and he
claims he is justified in doing that because *he* is under no 
obligation to believe in free speech...  Double standard? 

So, I would suggest that the decent thing to do if indeed he does not
believe in free speech would be *not to use a right he is given here
but he doesn't believe in*, and perhaps keep his own mouth shut :-)...
Otherwise he is just not being consistent :-)...  and perhaps even
dishonest?

Also, if he does not believe in the Western concept of human rights,
and *puts into practice his view that he is not bound by them*,
he should think twice about complaining the next time his rights
are being violated...   (Not that I would approve of such violations...)

Luc B





Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: KMT campus spying activities in the U.S.
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 02:41:52 GMT

In article <9231712.19072@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> dht@cs.mu.OZ.AU (Joyous Dave baby) writes:

>We are talking about whether ROC government monitors its citizens
>is right or wrong, and since you are not Chinese (assuming you are
>not), you are not in a position to judge our government; and I only

Why not?  Again, I say that he has every right to judge any government in the
world.  If he thinks that the Serbian government is not as evil as I think it
is, that is still within his right to do so.