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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 07:24:29 -0700
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Billie Hughes <bhughes@PC2.PC.MARICOPA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: moral and spiritual values?

Frank,

The Bible is in the library. The objections is when a teacher, a person in
authority, places the Bible on the desk.  Madonna is being censored from
the LIBRARY.

I have no objections to the Bible being on the teacher's desk as long as
it is not the ony spiritual source there. It it is along side the Koran
(etc.) than the pluaralism exists.



**************************************************************************
Billie Hughes, Phoenix College                          Phoenix, Arizona
Guide-from-the-Side                                     1202 W. Thomas Rd.
BITNET:  bhughes@pc2                                     Phx, AZ 85013
INTERNET: bhughes@pc2.pc.maricopa.edu                   (602)285-7428
**************************************************************************


On Tue, 17 Nov 1992 ADM_FDOHERTY@JMUVAX.BITNET wrote:

> I was asked to describe "spiritual" values to better define the issue.  I must
> digress somewhat to define it.  Naturalism as a world view basically says that
> we evolved from nothing by natural selection (chance?) plus time.  It says
 that
> there is no supreme being who created the universe and that we are not
> accountable to anyone except ourselves.  In this case there is no "spirit"
> because there is no supreme being.  I believe this position is the official
> position of our public schools.
>
> In saying that we need to give spiritual values a place in education,
 including
> public education, I believe we need to give another world view (theism) an
> opportunity to be heard.  I think even Mr. Jefferson (This is what he's called
> at UVA) would agree with this, given the quote I gave earlier.  Spiritual
> values may mean that we acknowledge, like Mr. Jefferson said we should, that
> there is a higher being to whom we are all accountable.  If we don't allow
 this
> world view to be freely and openly discussed by students and faculty who so
> desire in our schools, I believe we send a message to students that this is
 not
> important.
>
> I think we have been excluding the discussion of moral and spiritual values
> long enough in the public square, to take a phrase from Richard Neuhaus.  If
> we are to be truly a pluralistic society with pluralistic schools, then we
> must allow a discussion of the possibility of a spiritual dimension to life.
> To deny this is the height of censorship.  The Russians are doing this, why
> can't we?
>
> Isn't it interesting that many cry "censorship" when the work of Robert
> Maplethorpe or, God forbid, Madonna, is taken out of the public school
> libraries, but nothing is said by the same guardians of the public schools
 when
> a teacher is not allowed to have a Bible on his or her desk.  What a crazy
> world we do live in.
>
> Frank Doherty
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:32:02 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Anne Pemberton <apembert@VDOE386.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Kozol
              "ADM_FDOHERTY@jmuvax.bitnet" at Nov 16, 92 8:41 am

I hope Frank Doherty can provide some statistics for his
contention that the absence of "Christian morals and values" in
the schools is RESPONSIBLE for the increase in the number of
children in school in single parent or newly-forged families.

At the time I turned my failed marriage loose and my own
budding adolescents became "single parent" statistics, we
commented on the fact that they were some of the last of their
classmates and friends to achieve that status. That was some 15
years ago. I was schooled in both parochial and public schools
back in the heyday of forced prayer in school, and the
enforcement of authoritarian "Christian" values there in, as
were the parents of my sons' classmates and friends.  We had
indeed been schooled in the old-fashioned "right and wrong"
mentality, but rejected those notions when they proved
unworkable, and in many cases harmful.

Seems to me that the Russians are just substituting apples for
pears. They used to teach that THE STATE was the final
authority on what was right and wrong, now, instead of
educating their youth on the necessity to set their own morals
and values, they want to impose another authoritarian
dictatorshipp, with a the label GOD for THE STATE. This hardly
qualifies as progress.

The problems caused by broken homes are less the emotional
issues (although these are real, they have a limited life), but
the issues of poverty, poor nutrition, etc that accompany the
dissolution of family responsibility patterns. The are great
inequities that should be addressed by the greater society,
and, THEN perhaps included in education. But the responsibility
is on society first, not on schools first.

     Anne Pemberton
     Nottoway High School
     Nottoway, VA
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:10:39 CDT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         stan kulikowski ii <STANKULI@UWF.BITNET>
Subject:      moral and spiritual values?

>>
>>   From:         ADM_FDOHERTY@JMUVAX.BITNET
>>
>>  There is absolutely no hope for a society that has said we cannot teach
>>  moral and spiritual values in the schools.
>>

  i am not sure if i will wade into this discussion or not.  i think i
understand what the term 'moral values' means, ie. methods of evaluating
social behavior.

  but i would like a definition of 'spiritual values' to work with.
supernatural beings?  the soul?  afterlife?  transcendental mysticism?
i think i can better get a fix on the issues if i know what what being
proposed here.
              stan

                         stankuli@UWF.bitnet
     .
    ===     god created time so everything would not happen at once
    | |     god created space so everything would not happen to me
    ---                                 -- lament of the overburdened
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:55:00 EST
From:         JAWST15@PITTVMS.BITNET
Subject:      dive computers

I'm new to this list, so please excuse me if this question has already been
discussed. After getting my certification a few months ago, I bought a
friend's equipment -- a good deal except for the dive computer. On my last
trip to Can Cun, my Edge died. Some friends have suggested another brand, but
honestly, I'm not sure. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
From: tjay@nyx.cs.du.edu (TONY JAY)
Subject: Re: BC, which are the best?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
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	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 19:08:26 GMT


I
I don't want to upse you folks but I think AP changed their release clips
for a reason. The 'push two sides' clips wearto give catastrophic results.
On our club ABLJ's the 25mm (SR25) clips which hold the jock strap on come
undone if under tension. We find this on 2 year old jackets. These have
donethe equivelent of 300 dives a year by brutal students. I replace them
when they fail with plastic snap hooks.  

AP say the new 'STAB'release clips will not wear in this way and are
'easier to use'  (does anyone agree on the ease of use ???)

AP will not admit to the old type wearing badly justt they can fail -
diving kit was never designed for students ??
y
Tony Jay CI 5337 (BSAC)

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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:20:00 EST
From:         "Tony.Kuhlman" <ADP64@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      re: COMPRESSOR_LEAKING_OIL

>
> From: <ECNROBINSON@ORBSEN.UCG.IE> (Paul Robinson)
>
>         I run a university diving club and I got our compressor serviced  ab
> 9 months ago.However when I was filling a few bottles at the weekend I notic
> that a oil-like substance seems to be coming out of one of the air valves.Th
> filter is also new(6 hrs).Does anyone know what the cause of this is and how
> serious is it?


  Paul, what do you mean by "..one of the air valves.."?  I assume you don't
mean one of the hoses you attach to the cylinder to fill it.  If you have an
oil-like substance, or any substance other than air, coming from these, I
would assume that you stopped using the compressor immediately and warned
anyone who had a tank filled off that compressor in the last few months.

  I am not very familiar with larger high-pressure compressors like you are
using.  I am more familiar with the smaller models typically used for
construction (in the 70-150 psi or 5-10 kilos per square centimeter range).
These had a chamber where moisture, etc, in the air could collect and settle
to keep it out of the air-powered equipment.  It had a small valve on the
bottom that one could turn. The compressed air in the chamber would blow a
foul grey, black, or brown, thick oily substance out.  When the goop was
purged, you just closed the valve and were back in business.  It works much
like the sediment bowl or fuel/water separator on an engine.

  Hope this helps.

Tony Kuhlman
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 09:16:00 EST
From:         "Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)" <RFLNG@CLEMSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tiger sharks in Hawaii

CCBLAUN%TECHNION.bitnet@VM.TAU.AC.IL says

> Tigers (Galeocerdo Cuvieri) where always a threat to the ppls at the water.
> In the Red sea, its the type of shark that attacked most of the cases
> (along with the Blue - Prionance Glauca)
                               ^
It's the Prionace Glauca.

     Sharks have been swimming, breeding, feeding, and otherwise going
     about their own shark business for some 425 million years.  Then
     perhaps a few hundred years ago, a clever terrestrial primate
     discovered that it is great fun to play in the same aquatic envi-
     ronment that sharks have been using for a long, long time.  Once
     in a great while, a conflict of interest occurred between a shark
     and one of the clever primates.   ...

So begins the article "Shark Smart" in the Dec 1992 issue of Ocean Realm.
Dangers of the so-called "dangerous species" of sharks have long been
misunderstood, exaggerated, and sometimes sensationalized.  Reading the
Ocean Realm article and some books written by shark experts should dispel
much of the unfounded fears ... which is not to say that sharks are
completely harmless and safe.  Even friendly, playful puppies are not
completely harmless.

>  However, the tigers wont show so much agretion and frenzy like the big
>  white (Carsharodon Carsharias), which attacks little ships and boats, :...:
             ^           ^
It's the Carcharodon Carcharias.  On the latter, are you sure you weren't
thinking of Moby Dick or Jaws?  :-)

>  So, i think that the tigers are indeed a dangerous predator and they might
>  attack even if the biological terms are constent without any big change.

Not according to experts who spent years studying these and other species
of sharks.  These magnificent creatures are shy, are not out there to get us,
and have much better things to do than attacking ppls unprovoked.  Give them a
break at the environment they've occupied for hundreds of millions of years
before we began intruding.

-- Bob.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 10:16:39 IST
From:         CCBLAUN%TECHNION.bitnet@VM.TAU.AC.IL
Subject:      Re: Tiger sharks in Hawaii
              19 Nov 1992 18:14:16 GMT from <leej%SGI.COM@VM.TAU.AC.IL>

Hi Lee.
Unfortunatly i dont have figurs or statistics concerning the attacks,
they can be counted with 1 hand... not more. (since the 80`s)
in 2 or 3 cases the typical tooth marks showed it was a tiger.
At other cases, divers at the area spoted the special snoot of the blue from a
distance.
         Naftali
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Via: uk.ac.city-poly.tower-unix; Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:47:52 +0000
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:38:50 GMT
From:         Cosma Papouis <papouis@TOWER-UNIX.CITY-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: compressor training

>I was just asking a question ,and  did not expect such comments on my ability.

> You try running a university club with about 4/5 trained people and 90-100
> trainees while studying for a degree at the same time.

Paul,

        I too run a club in a poly (look at my mailing address!!).  I was not
casting aspersions on your abilities but, rather, expressing concern over the
safety of the airfills provided.

Because of the nature of poly clubs it is not uncommon for people who have
only had informal training to be doing things such as compressing.

Our club avoids most of these pitfalls by being affiliated to a BSAC branch
which governs all of our diving activities.  This BSAC branch is made up of
expoly students some of whom have been diving with the club for 10,12 or
even 17 years.

This is good for all concerned as the trainees get experienced trainers.  The
branch gets new members and also its existing members can retain links with
the poly.  Another side benifit of this arrangment is that we also dive with
another local Uni whos students seem to specialise in Marine Biology which
is interesting for those of us with sparse marine knowledge (I`m a Computing
and Psycology student).

Sorry if I offeneded.

Cosma


CLP  (City Of London Poly)
--


  ============================================================================

              Cosma Papouis, A.K.A. .... 'Cos, Cosy, Cosmic' ...

        "Depression is when you go to your psychiatrist suffering with
                Paranoia and he tells you you're not paranoid...

                        Everybody DOES hate you!!!!"

     E-Mail: PAPOUIS@uk.ac.clp.unixa     Snail: Mr. Cosma Papouis,
             C_PAPOUIS@uk.ac.clp.tvax           12 Coopers Lane,
 -------------------------------------          Grove Park,
   Discliamer :-  I speak for no-one |          LONDON,
                  Except maybe for   |          SE12 0QA.
                  MYSELF!!           |          United Kingdom
                                     |
  ============================================================================
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:08:00 EST
From:         "Alan H. Friedberg" <FRIEDBER@FAUVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: NED Diver's gift registry

    My wish list:
    (1)  that members of the list would take as much care over their
    posting to the list as they do planning their dives -implies that
    many our flame-throwers would either be more considerate in their
    postings or they would most likely get bent
    (2)  that Ross Perot would participate with my wife in buying me:
    a redundant closed system rebreather, drysuit, mixed-gas sensing
    dive computer, set of new Dive-Rite tank valves with manifold
    attachment, 15mm lens and viewfinder, etc.
    (3)  That Michael Menduno would publish AquaCorps on a regular
    basis
    (4)  that I could take Billy Dean's technical diving course in
    Key West
    (5)  that the ratio between my really-good to other pictures
    would reverse from 1:18 to 18:1
    (6)  that the number of diving deaths to be analyzed were reduced
    to 0
    (7)  that NITROX (EAN) were widely available and well understood
    (8)  that technical diving credentials were available and
    respected enough that you didn't have to prove you ability to
    each new dive boat operator
    (9)  that there was an effective, self-policing organization of
    charter boat operators that would eliminate the unsafe operators
    (10)  that good (technically knowledgeable, pleasant, reasonably
    priced) dive stores were widely supported instead of the
    fast-buck operations we routinely find
    (11+)  more but I'm out of time

    Alan H. Friedberg
    President of NED
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:23:14 PST
From:         Tim Chase <A3TC@PSUORVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Scuba Scrounge

Well, I went and did IT. I really bought a brand new BC! From a dive shop
no less! I guess that I will have to trun in my scuba scrounge card :)

This dive shop let me trade in my med Freedom BC for a Sea Quest 2 BC
He gave me $80 for my old one and the Sea Quest was on 30% sale anyway.

I was looking for a B/C because the Freedom was too small anyway and
was really giving me problems when I was trying to swim on my back.
I was happy with the Freedom. It was the best feeling BC I have used.
It also would keep the tank still.

Well , I am going to give this one a try.

Tim Chase Computer Operator Specialist PSU or Cold water U.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 05:39:41 PST
From:         Tim Chase <A3TC@PSUORVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Discovery

Did anyone out there see the show about Giant Squids of Discovery?

One of my students was telling me about a show on Discovery about
a team of divers that went down and was diving with a school of
large squid when a couple grabed on to one diver stripping him of
all of his equipment save his air supply.

There were trying to figure out if there were giant squids that were
being fed upon by whales.

Now, I know that in the Smithonian (SP?) they have a part of a giant
squid that a boy in the 1890's chopped off a arm while fighting the
thing when he rowed over it. I guess the squid was not in the mood
for that :)

Anyway, sounds like an intresting show.

Tim Chase Computer Operator Specialist  PSU
From: leej@sgi.com (Lee Jones)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Subject: Re: Tiger sharks in Hawaii
Date: 19 Nov 1992 18:14:16 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: diver.asd.sgi.com

In article <SCUBA-L%92111909200163@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> "Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)" <RFLNG@CLEMSON.BITNET> writes:
>CCBLAUN%TECHNION.bitnet@VM.TAU.AC.IL says
>
>> Tigers (Galeocerdo Cuvieri) where always a threat to the ppls at the water.
>> In the Red sea, its the type of shark that attacked most of the cases
>> (along with the Blue - Prionance Glauca)
>                               ^
>It's the Prionace Glauca.

Blue sharks?  Do you have statistics on that?  I guess I'm surprised.

Regards, Lee
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 11:56:00 EST
From:         "Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)" <RFLNG@CLEMSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tiger sharks in Hawaii

Naftali  <CCBLAUN%TECHNION.bitnet@VM.TAU.AC.IL> says

>  I am against the hunt of the shark, since i belive its the nicest creature
>  on earth.

Glad to hear that.  It wasn't at all clear from your previous post that you
weren't sympathetic to the Hawaiian Tiger (shark) hunt.  However, we need
not get overboard on praise either -- there are NICER creatures on earth
than sharks.   :-)

>  But some others, are truly dangerous and observation is safe with metal
>  suit or a cage, or neer the reef (hammerheads schools or some black tips
>  etc.)

PLEASE, sharks have enough undeserved, bad reputation, without unsubstan-
tiated, and quite obviously false, remarks as the above.

I dove in Isla del Coco in July (posted a LONG report on 7/29 in SCUBA-L).
On seven days of diving, I encountered schools of hammerheads on EVERY ONE
of 20 dives.  Anyone who has had any experience with hammerheads will
characterize them as "shy", as I did in my report.  Two liveaboards have
been taking divers there regularly for several years;  dived with the
hammerheads without any special protective clothing or gear and not one
single incident of attack or threat has been reported in tens of thousands
of such dives (collectively).  I've also reported on other shark encounters
(including hammerhead and blacktip) in Turks & Caicos earlier that month.
Yes, you can dive in protective cages in Australia with great whites, or
with Tigers in Nassau with Stuart Cove's Undersea Adventure ($500 charter
per dive in two summer months), but you don't need cages diving with most
species of sharks.  Black tips ???  They are generally not even considered
to be one of the "bad guys".

Let's just be "shark smart" and consider it our good fortune to encounter
a shark, any shark, while we're diving.  Just ENJOY.  Shall we?

-- Bob.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:51:16 PST
From:         "Ron Wu, SC2-24, 5-2368." <RWU@MATTEC.INTEL.COM>
Subject:      RE: dive computers

>I'm new to this list, so please excuse me if this question has already been
>discussed. After getting my certification a few months ago, I bought a
>friend's equipment -- a good deal except for the dive computer. On my last
>trip to Can Cun, my Edge died. Some friends have suggested another brand, but
>honestly, I'm not sure. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

        call Orca service center at 215-444-9080, I just have my Edge
repaired for missing few rows of pixels at $150.00. beats buying a new
one. I still think they are the best, less lead on my belt :-)

Ron
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:23:00 EST
From:         "Tony.Kuhlman" <ADP64@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      NED Diver's gift registry

  Well, the Christmas season is coming up fast.  It's that time of year when
people start thinking about what kind of dive gear you'd like to receive.
Remember that limited-edition weight belt you received from your non-diving
but well-meaning spouse last year?  The one with Jacques Cousteau's monogram
on every weight?  Or how about the neoprene tie?  Oh, it was fine for the
presentation to the Dean's committee (and certain bars in Greenwich village,
perhaps), but it didn't do a thing as far as extending your bottom time.

  Now is the time to sign up for those gifts you really want.  NED has started
a gift registry for diving-related items.  Just post your wish list here, and
NED's little elves will take your e-mail address, translate it into a
snail-mail address, and send your wish list to your spouse, family, and/or
friends. Just think - you can get just what you want, in the correct size, and
in the color that matches your suit, or gear, or eyes, or whatever you want to
match.  Just specify what you want, and we'll take care of the rest.

  OK, whimsy counts here, folks.  Now is the time to exercize your
creative (albeit twisted) imaginations.

  Me?  I'd like a mermaid detector.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Kuhlman
NED representative at S. Clause Industries
"The world's largest overnight delivery system, so long as it's December 24th"
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