From: magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson)
Subject: if (!(carrying a.f.c) == fascism) ... (was: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore)
Organization: Theoretical Physics, Lund University, Sweden
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:12:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.193006.29874@frmug.fr.mugnet.org> archer@frmug.fr.mugnet.org (Vincent Archer) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.090756.3716@pollux.lu.se> magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson) writes:
>>I apologize sincerely if anybody of all those honest, hard-working
>>newsadmins out there who really have made an _informed decision_ not
>>to carry certain groups feels insulted. My "adolescent whining" was
>>directed at the people who - from ignorance or whatever - refuse to let
>>their users read perfectly valid and serious newsgroups (and there are
>>more serious groups than a.f.c on altnet) just because some idiots use
>>altnet as their private playground. They *don't* have to carry all of
>>altnet, or honor automatic newgroups, or whatever, just because they
>>carry one or two alt groups.

>I wouldn't call your protest an "adolescent whining". However, you must
>consider that the goal of a news administrator (unless he's PAID for
>this job) is to spend the LEAST possible time on the news system.
>Ideally, one should spend 15" seconds per day, just scanning the daily
>report to see if everything's okay and then forget about it.
>
>Unfortunately, if you want to carry anything from alt.*, it is not
>possible. Since you cannot carry all, you have to keep watch on which
>groups are ok and which are not. And this takes time. If you're an
>harassed sysadmin, then you've got the best option: trash alt IN WHOLE,


I think we're in danger of confusing two issues here.

I can understand that newsadmins choose not to carry alt because of all
the hassle with bogus newgroups, newgroup/rmgroup wars, and so on.  

However:

It's one thing to choose not to carry alt by default. It's a different
thing to refuse to have anything to do with alt at all. 

Carrying alt.* means getting lots of trash - the proverbial "sewer",
"morass", or whatever you'd call it.

But picture the following scenario: A user contacts the sysadmin, and
says:

"I understand that you don't want to carry all of alt, but could you
please just carry this particular newsgroup (a.f.c, alt.cobol or
whatever)"

Newsadmin: "No, it's an alt group, and altnet is a sewer"

U: "But this group is not only perfectly serious, but it also has a
higher S/N ratio than many mainstream groups"

N: "I still don't want to carry an alt groups. That would mean that
I'd have to honour all those bogus newgroups/rmgroups"

U: "But nobody forces you to do that - just turn off automatic
newgroup creation".

N: "But that's even worse, I'd have to sift through hundreds and
hundreds of bogus control messages, and I don't have time for that"

U: "I appreciate that, but couldn't you just carry this one newgroup,
and ignore everything else that has to do with alt?"

N (foaming at mouth): "No! Alt is EVIL! Alt is a SEWER! My entire news
system will get TAINTED from association with this FILTH and
CORRUPTION! Now GO AWAY, before I HIT you over the HEAD with this
PLANK". 



Now, *This* last attitude is what I called "fascist".

>and wait until those newsgroups that are "serious" gets promoted to
>the big-7.
>
>Many have been. To name three that I've been following, alt.bbs.waffle
>alt.sys.sun and alt.mud have been promoted to the status of comp and
>rec newsgroups. 

Yes, and there are more examples. But I think you shouldn't generalize
too much. 

Or perhaps you'd like to issue an RFD for moving alt.sex to rec.sex?
That would "doubtless" improve its propagation... NOT!

>The fact that such jerks as Bruce feel that "This is alt,
>and alt shall grow, and shall never shrink" IS an argument against
>spending ANY time at all to deal with alt.*

Yes, but the issue is not about dealing with alt.*, but about dealing
with _specific_ newgroups in alt.

>You're a really big site? Then carry all/all (yech, not another flame war)
>and don't bother looking at alt. You're a smaller site (and there are
>MORE small sites than large ones out there)? Then drop alt and be
>happy. Or you spend hours a week filtering controls from there.

But when your users start to complain, *don't* expect the rest of the
net to change its ways just to make up for your own choices. If you
don't want to carry alt then, fine, it's a problem between you and
your users. It's DEFINITELY NOT a reason to expect the large, happy
readership of alt.folklore.computers to happily agree to what's been
called a hostile takeover. 

Magnus Olsson                   | \e+      /_
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