HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jamaass@bluemoon.rn.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
Keywords: guns and fascism
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 06:31:07 EDT

cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) writes:

> In article <1992Aug23.010331.15464@microsoft.com>, marcmil@microsoft.com
> (Marc Milanini) writes:
> 
> > Whereas in the USA, you can buy M16s by reading ads in the newspapers.
> > We agree that European countries have less criminality than the USA.
> > As a matter of fact, thay also have harscher control on guns...
> 
> Ok, let's have a look (I'll only select a few, to save space):
> 
>                  H O M I C I D E
>                                   PER         ABSOLUTE
> RANK  COUNTRY                     100,000     NUMBERS
> ====  ==========================  =======     ========
>  11   United States                 9.60      18,155
>  18   Netherlands                   7.15         964
>  25   Finland                       4.88         229
>  27   West Germany                  4.47       2,771
>  34   Sweden                        3.36         275
>  35   Austria                       3.06         229
>  36   Italy                         2.95       1,643
>  40   France                        2.70       1,429
>  45   England & Wales               2.24       1,102
>  46   Denmark                       2.03         102
>  59   Norway                        0.50          20
> 
> -------------------  R A P E  -----------------
>                                 PER         ABSOLUTE
> RANK  COUNTRY                   100,000     NUMBERS
> ====  ========================  =======     ========
>    2  West Germany              77.49       48,075
>    8  Netherlands               56.00        7,554
>    9  England & Wales           50.20       24,698
>   13  Scotland                  44.69        2,330
>   14  Denmark                   41.06        2,068
>   15  Sweden                    40.52        3,313
>   18  Austria                   30.42        2,274
>   22  United States             26.30       40,168
>   23  France                    26.19       13,828
>   28  Norway                    23.43          931
>   34  Italy                     11.87        6,605
>   39  Finland                    9.44          443
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't have stats for assaults, and other violent crimes.


When you (or anyone) posts statistics like those above, would you
*** PLEASE *** post the source!

I'd like to use such information in discussing the issues and in
forming my own opinions, but I refuse to do either without knowing
where the data come from.

Thanks!


Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
NW of Columbus Ohio                Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp

GILLETTE'S PRINCIPLE:
  "If you want to make people angry, lie. If you want to make
   them absolutely livid with rage, tell the truth."
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: A question on U.S. Constitution
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 03:14:27 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.211156.29314@mtu.edu> cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) writes:

>> No.  Due process means whatever the state says is due process.  In
>> general, this means a court order, a warrent, or probable cause
>> immediately witnessed by the arresting officer.  

>This is suspect.  If this is true, then the State, or Feds, can
>say "You have blue eyes, and the LAW says all persons with blue
>eyes are to report to the disintegration chamber".  I do not
>believe this constitutes "due process"; It gives far too much power
>to the government.  Do you think the Founding Fathers would allow
>*any* government this much power?...  I wonder if they mention
>what they meant by "due process"; Anyone have any pointers?

The full phrase is "due process of law." I think, "of law" means
British common law. The American legal system was based on common law
and many early Supreme Court rulings refer to British precedents or
authorities (such as Blackstone.)

I suspect, however, that the Supreme Court's rulings have frozen this
meaning somewhat. (That is, so that a state can't simply make due
process whatever they like.)

                                                Frank Crary
                                                CU Boulder

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter)
Subject: Re: Time to Fight
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:46:29 GMT

In article <1594@tnc.UUCP>, m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY) writes:
> 
>           *>*> WAR ON DRUGS <*<*
>          (salute when you read that)
> ---
> 
> Two Possible Salutes:
>            "Sig Heil!"

Is this a salute performed with your Sig at the end of your extended arm?  ;-)

-- 
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Technological University, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------------
With your one remaining eye, please do NOT look back into the laser
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.society.civil-disob
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: So Much for Iowa.... (Was: Black Market guns)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 05:05:52 GMT

In <ATAYLOR.92Sep1134003@gauss.nmsu.edu> ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes
in response to me:

	It's about time I let some of this out:

><	   Ammunition that can be fired in a pistol, when sold, must be
><   recorded along with the buyers name, ssn, address, and the like.  

>	Huh. Iowa gets crossed off the list of free states;
>	this isn't Federal.

	I'm afraid the inner cover of the booklet in question stated that
the requirements were Federal.  Does the year 1968 ring a bell?  Apparently
the later legislation removing this wasn't adopted as K-mart policy.  I
have a check to deposit soon, and K-mart is near my bank.  I shall have
another look at that booklet and post the wording ASAP.

>	When was the last time you bought black powder? BATF
>	reclassified it as a Class 2 explosive a couple of years
>	back; which is why most stores don't carry it anymore
>	unless they have the appropriate bunker.

	I purchase black powder from a gun store, not K-mart or Wal-Mart.
Perhaps this is the reason it found at the gun store and not K-mart?

><	   I hate to think the government can know for the next two years that
><   I have a .30-30, be it rifle or pistol.  How did this one get by?

>	Sounds like a question for the Iowa Statehouse.
>	However, doesn't Iowa have a waiting period and background
>	check for handgun sales as well? 

	Upon checking with the sheriff's office and reading the Iowa Code as
amended in 1986, Iowa has a background check for the purchase of a handgun
purchase permit.  The wait is three days, at which time you may buy providing
the police have not said you cannot.  Staggers-type legislation here, with no
default "no buy" clause.  You can buy any amount, and the license is renewed
every year unless you've committed a violent crime or are certifiably addicted
to alcohol or any controlled substance.  While the alcohol clause is somewhat
refreshing in that the government sees it as a mind-altering drug, the whole
thing still annoys me.  Interestingly enough, a CCW is available in two
guises, the professional and non-professional.  Both have the same
requirements, both are renewed yearly, and both supercede any need of a
handgun purchase permit.  To get one, according to the code, you need only
show that you may have need to protect property, life, or both while you are
not on your own property.  I've a computer dealer friend who has one, just
in case anybody thinks $3,000 worth of hardware doesn't justify it.

	Anyway, this looks like a K-mart policy, not an Iowa policy.  I
think I'll just start purchasing ammunition (and reloading supplies) in
larger lots from the gun shop rather than trust K-mart.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
Date: Wednesday, 26 Aug 1992 16:42:58 EDT
From: <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>
Distribution: usa
Followups-to: talk.politics.guns
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: PETA Activities Suspected of Violating FCC Act, Says PPF
 <1992Aug25.222258.11890@dg-rtp.dg.com>

In article <1992Aug25.222258.11890@dg-rtp.dg.com>, meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com
(Bill Meyers) says:
>
>In article <3167@isgtec.isgtec.com> robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne) writes:
>>spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
>>> | You folk don't give a damn that
>>> | by trying to stop hunting you are taking away the single largest
>>> | source of money that is spent on environment restoration (an amount
>>> | over *one billion* dollars per year from license fees, the 11% excise
>>> | taxes on all our equipment, etc.).
>>>
>>> A specious argument.  The same amount of money could be spent on
>>> the environment regardless of policies on hunting.
>>
>>Wrong.  License monies only get spent on environment restoration etc.
>>because the hunters, as a group, bitch and complain if they don't.
>>(Of course I can only speak for Canada...)
>
>Ditto in the U.S. -- license monies, and certain taxes, have in effect
>been "agreed to" by the hunting/fishing communities.  Spending them on
>something else breaks the agreement.  They'd bitch.  You're surprised?
>
>>Also hunters are the biggest maintainers of wooded areas and
>>wetlands outside of the government itself.  Our hunt camp, as a
>>partnership,  owns over 1000 acres and the individual members own much
>>more land privately.  Land which will always be wood lands and which
>>only have 10-12 deer harvested yearly for the forseeable future.
>>
>>If hunting was outlawed much of this land would be dumped to loggers.
>
>Damn right.  Why keep it if the value's been taken away?
>Not to mention continuing to pay the land taxes ...

Precisely. My extended family contains a number of (gasps and shrieks for
the AR lunatic fringe) ... LOGGERS! Individually and collectively we own
a sizeable amount of land which is used for (more gasps and shrieks) HUNTING
for a few weeks each year. This land is carefully managed, preserved and
protected as an animal habitat year round.

If we couldn't hunt on it, I GUARANTEE these acres would be logged
and sold for subdivisions.

What animal habitats have PETA/ALF/CAFF/AR crazies purchased and preserved
WITH THEIR PERSONAL FUNDS AND THEIR PERSONAL EFFORT?

None, I daresay.

When was the last time a hunter tried to FORCE a PETA/ALF/CAFF/AR fringie
to hunt animals?

Never, I daresay.

When was the last time a PETA/ALF/CAFF/AR terrorist tried to FORCE hunters
to espouse the PETA party line and enforce their specious worldview on hunters?

Frequently, I daresay.

W. K. Gorman
NRA Life

          PETA Action Line:  1 (301) 770-8980


          Putting People First
          Kathleen Marquandt, President
          4401 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
          Suite 310-A
          Washington, D.C.  20008-2322
          1 (202) 364-7277

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.french
From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter)
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
Keywords: guns and fascism
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:07:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug23.010331.15464@microsoft.com>, marcmil@microsoft.com
(Marc Milanini) writes:

> Whereas in the USA, you can buy M16s by reading ads in the newspapers.
> We agree that European countries have less criminality than the USA.
> As a matter of fact, thay also have harscher control on guns...

Ok, let's have a look (I'll only select a few, to save space):

                 H O M I C I D E
                                  PER         ABSOLUTE
RANK  COUNTRY                     100,000     NUMBERS
====  ==========================  =======     ========
 11   United States                 9.60      18,155
 18   Netherlands                   7.15         964
 25   Finland                       4.88         229
 27   West Germany                  4.47       2,771
 34   Sweden                        3.36         275
 35   Austria                       3.06         229
 36   Italy                         2.95       1,643
 40   France                        2.70       1,429
 45   England & Wales               2.24       1,102
 46   Denmark                       2.03         102
 59   Norway                        0.50          20

-------------------  R A P E  -----------------
                                PER         ABSOLUTE
RANK  COUNTRY                   100,000     NUMBERS
====  ========================  =======     ========
   2  West Germany              77.49       48,075
   8  Netherlands               56.00        7,554
   9  England & Wales           50.20       24,698
  13  Scotland                  44.69        2,330
  14  Denmark                   41.06        2,068
  15  Sweden                    40.52        3,313
  18  Austria                   30.42        2,274
  22  United States             26.30       40,168
  23  France                    26.19       13,828
  28  Norway                    23.43          931
  34  Italy                     11.87        6,605
  39  Finland                    9.44          443


Unfortunately, I don't have stats for assaults, and other violent crimes.
It does look like Europe has a problem with rape.  Europe, as a whole,
doesn't appear to fare so well if we start totaling things up...

Curiously, Switzerland was not even on the scale... (not in the top 60).
It must be their well known lack of firearms is responsible...  ;-)

-- 
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Technological University, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------------
With your one remaining eye, please do NOT look back into the laser
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: "charlie duncan" <charlie.duncan@execnet.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: being rational
Date: 28 Aug 92 07:14:43 EST
Reply-To: "charlie duncan" <charlie.duncan@execnet.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Executive Networks Information

Newsgroup: talk.politics.guns


TR>In article <1992Aug23.230124.16509#microsoft.com> marcmil@microsoft.com
TR>(Marc Milanini) writes:
TR>>Have a look in the edition of the Anchorage Daily News of Monday, July
TR>>6th, in the section guns, and tell me what you think of it. There is
TR>>an ad saying "Uzi, M16, SKS, M14. Package, $ 1,800" and then a phone
TR>>number.

TR>Call the number and ask him what you'll have to do to buy them.  You'll
TR>find out that you'll have to have the signature of your local chief,
TR>$200 for a transfer tax payment, and several months for an FBI background
TR>check.
TR>---

       You mean do something simple like making a phone call -- 
  rather than bleeting all over the world via UseNet?

       Surely you jest!  <grin>

       TTFN -- Charlie
---
  OLX 3.0  GUN CONTROL: It isn't about guns...it's about CONTROL!
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.society.civil-disob
From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: Black Market guns
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 02:56:40 GMT

In article <viking.715306690@vincent1.iastate.edu>
viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

>
>In article <6#gnvkn.nagle@netcom.com> nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) writes:
>
>>       I've given up on gun control, but ammo control has possibilities.
>>Ammo has a shelf life.
>
>	Ammunition that can be fired in a pistol, when sold, must be
>recorded along with the buyers name, ssn, address, and the like.  I did
>not have this problem when I bought 12ga shotshells, nor when buying
>black powder.  I took a look at the ammunition covered, and it's a huge
>variety.  Everything from .22LR to .30-30 to 7mm Remington Magnum.  Who
>shoots these with a pistol?  All populat rounds are presented.  Of notable
>exception was the 10mm round, and the .454 Casull.  Obviously, neither of
>these are shot in pistols, right?
>
>	I hate to think the government can know for the next two years that
>I have a .30-30, be it rifle or pistol.  How did this one get by?
>
     It sounds like a de-facto registration scheme.  My question is what
sort of crime control do they exect to produce with this?  I wasn't aware
of any method of tracking a *bullet* back to somebody.

========================================================================
| David Veal  PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu                                  |
|             University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education |
========================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.society.civil-disob
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Black Market guns
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:47:38 GMT

In article <16854134A0.PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu> PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal) writes:
>From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
>Subject: Re: Black Market guns
>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 02:56:40 GMT
>In article <viking.715306690@vincent1.iastate.edu>
>viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>
>>
>>In article <6#gnvkn.nagle@netcom.com> nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) writes:
>>
>>>       I've given up on gun control, but ammo control has possibilities.
>>>Ammo has a shelf life.
>>
>>	Ammunition that can be fired in a pistol, when sold, must be
>>recorded along with the buyers name, ssn, address, and the like.  I did
>>not have this problem when I bought 12ga shotshells, nor when buying
>>black powder.  I took a look at the ammunition covered, and it's a huge
>>variety.  Everything from .22LR to .30-30 to 7mm Remington Magnum.  Who
>>shoots these with a pistol?  All populat rounds are presented.  Of notable
>>exception was the 10mm round, and the .454 Casull.  Obviously, neither of
>>these are shot in pistols, right?
>>
>>	I hate to think the government can know for the next two years that
>>I have a .30-30, be it rifle or pistol.  How did this one get by?
>>
>     It sounds like a de-facto registration scheme.  My question is what
>sort of crime control do they exect to produce with this?  I wasn't aware
>of any method of tracking a *bullet* back to somebody.
>
>========================================================================

It's probably a local ordinance.  Or it may be K-Mart policy.  I usually buy 
ammo from a local firearms dealer, and he sells me .9mm, .22lr, and .38 
wadcutters over the counter with nary a form.  One day I went plinking on 
the other side of town, and bought some k-mart .9mm.  THEY wanted forms 
filled out.
From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: CLINTON NEW TEXT: GUN CONTROL
Date: 23 Aug 92 23:53:05 GMT
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville

In article <viking.714451326@vincent1.iastate.edu>
viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

>
>	If this is true, I may just vote for Bush.  Why?  I planned
>on voting Libertarian, but if this extreme is what the Clinton/Gore
>ticket can assure me, perhaps I'm better off voting so they lose
>rather than so all of them get the message?  There's always '96 for
>voting Libertarian, but by then what else will I have lost if my
>vote didn't help defeat what we all saw?

     Well, it doesn't matter for me.  Tennessee will vote for Prince
Albert regardless of what happens.  There are too many Democrats in the
Western two-third of the state.


========================================================================
| David Veal  PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu                                  |
|             University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education |
========================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: eab@msc.edu (Edward Bertsch)
Subject: Re: Invitation to NRA Freedom Associates
Organization: Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Minneapolis, MN
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 01:19:32 GMT

previously meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers) wrote

"How?  Send ME your name and paper-mail address, and I'll (ahem) "nominate"
you.  Or ask your local NRA member.  Or try calling NRA, at 800/368-5714.


As much as I am in favor of ownership (legal or otherwise) of handguns and
any other form of weapon, I've heard (and experienced) that the NRA isn't
exactly a group of Rhodes scholars, if you get my meaning.  I called the
number listed here, and got a voice mail system.  The voice mail system
said to hit various keys if you have touch tone, or wait if you don't.
Then (as I always do wait, rather than voluntarily enter a touch tone
maze) it said "Sorry you are having problems, please call back later"
and hung up.

So then I called again, and entered 1 for annual membership renewal.
It played me some "on hold" music, and then when it seemed like it
was going to connect me with a person, it just sat there.

So perhaps they were closed for the day.  But if they were, they
shouldn't keep you on hold (wasting your time and their money).
I'd be willing to support a group where most of the money I send
in would go to fight pansy-ass liberals who want to do away with
the 2nd ammendment, but the NRA doesn't seem to be this group.

And since they do have magazines, they should have one devoted to
handguns.  A lot of us are not interested in hunting whatsoever,
only protection of our families, our property, and our personage.

--

Edward A. Bertsch (eab@msc.edu)   Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc.
Operations/User Services          1200 Washington Avenue South
(612) 626-1888 work               Minneapolis, Minnesota  55415
(612) 645-0168 voice mail         [DISCLAIMER: MY OPINIONS; NOT MSCI'S]

      ___________________________________________________
      Dump the Republocrats:      vote Libertarian in '92
      ---------------------------------------------------

% echo "potatoe potato" | spell
potatoe
%
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,talk.abortion