HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:59:56 GMT

In article <3616@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
>In article <BruMG7.6oG@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>
>[40 lines of text that should have been deleted earlier.  Please edit down
> your replies.]
>
>>Of course Ducey would like to play and of course Ducey is probably ticked off
>>at management for not giving him a chance but he never complained or was
>>disruptive in the Clubhouse.  
>
>HOW DO YOU KNOW?  How do you know what Ducey has or hasn't done in the 
>clubhouse?  Are you guessing?  Do you live there?  Have you wired the place
>for sound?  Is Rance Mulliniks your brother-in-law?

Well actually Rance is ...
Just Kidding.  I feel that if Ducey had have been a problem, or had complained
to management they would have got rid of him as he has no real use or value
to the team otherwise.  Also I have not heard of any problems from him, 
other players or management of him being a problem.  Me as an outsider to
the clubhouse cannot be sure of this but I really don't think he is a problem
because if he was he wouldn't be in Toronto this long sitting on the bench.

>>The thing is if Toronto thought he could hit 40-50HRs or even 25 HRs they 
>>would have found a spot for him.  
>
>In other words, Toronto was *wrong* about Fielder.  Their management made
>an *incorrect* (yea, even *inept*) judgement about Fielder's talent.

I must say that 24 other teams were wrong as well because only Detroit gave
him a good offer, and if any team thought he could hit 50 HRs he would
have been paid more than $1 million.  Also every team makes mistakes, but
the good teams make fewer.

>If they can pull such glaring boners with regard to easily-seen things like
>hitting ability, why can't they also be wrong here and there about attitude,
>leadership, and so forth?
>
>>Right.  Bell may have been a great guy but the way he flatly refused to DH is
>>what ticked off management and the fans and that is why he isn't here now.  
>
>He sure played a lot of DH, for someone who "flatly refused".  How is Bell's
>flat refusal to be exclusively a DH any different from Winfield's similar
>flat refusal this year?

As I see it he didn't flatly refuse.  He said that he would come to spring
training with his glove and try and show the team that he can still play
in the outfield.  He said that he would like to play out there but I don't
see that as a flat refusal.  

>[ *Please* edit down your text.  It's hard to find your comments in among all
>  the ">>>>"s and overly-long lines... ]
>
Sure Thing.

>-- 
>        David Tate         |   When I was a rookie arm and bit 
>  dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu  |   And the greenest hurler to take the mound
>  Prof. of Story Problems  |   (Sighed the old southpaw, dying of innings)...
>  Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR  | 	"Lament", Dylan 'Big Frank' Thomas

--David Johnson
From: comm.mot.com!stanm@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Where have all the flakes gone?
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:53:00 GMT
Organization: Motorola
X-mailer: Stadel 3.4a-227
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

In article 084513U39730@uicvm.uic.edu, Norma Kateeb <U39730@uicvm.uic.edu> ()
 writes:
>Okay fans--is there anyone today--be it player, manager, GM, umpire--
>ANYONE who adds some life and fun to the game today?

Wrigley Field bleacherites and Roger McDowell of the Dodgers seem to have a
love-in going over last few years. During BP McDowell would go into the
outfield, pick up a gardening hose, and spray the bleacher creatures with
water on a warm summer's day. Other days he would play catch with them, or
try to throw a ball into one of the holes in the center field scoreboard.

There's always Turk Wendell, whenever the Cubs give him a chance to pitch at
this level. I won't try to repeat all of his peculiarities, but there are
many.

Tommy Lasorda, IMHO, is still good for a laugh, though, with his team in the 
West Dumper, there isn't much to laugh about these days.

There's gotta ba a few more...

--Stan Macasieb (stanm@comm.mot.com)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Subject: Re: Yankees..Whats UP?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:30:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.011236.25327@news.columbia.edu>, mike@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Michael Chen)  writes...
> 
>Hey, there were even talks of Bernie for Hesketh.  But, back to the
>point of discussion...Last season, Bernie (IMHO) did not do as well as
>he could.  Bernie has the tools, but he is still learning.  He still
>needs to learn how to run the bases.  In terms of hitting, I would
>think Bernie would be a more feared hitter than a Lofton, who is often
>considered a slap hitter.  

Well, if it happens, then it is painfully obvious that Steinbrenner is making 
Yankee decisions violating the terms of the agreement with Vincent. After all, 
only Steinbrenner would make such a trade. I don't think that even Lou Gorman 
would make as lopsided a trade as this is. However, free agent signings is 
another matter d::-).

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic"
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Pirates pull off triple play! / ZSmith on the DL! / Other News!
Keywords: triple play, comings, goings, goodbye, binaca continues
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:59:51 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <1510@cogsci.ucsd.EDU> king@cogsci.ucsd.EDU (Jonathan King) writes:
>Paul Wagner is a right-handed starter who did pretty well at Salem
>(high A) last year, and who was doing even better at Carolina (AA)
>this year.  He's somewhat of a mystery man, as far as being a prospect
>goes, but he was out-pitching the more highly touted Mike Zimmerman
>this year.

A couple of more tidbits about Wagner; he's 23 years old, and was drafted
in the 8th round of the 1989 draft (the Pirates drafted Willie Greene in
the first round that year; I believe it was the first Doughty draft).
Wagner becomes the first player from that draft year to debut for the
Pirates, though Steve Cooke was also called up and was drafted in the 36th
round that year as a junior college "draft and follow" player.  

>The last call up was, uh, rats.  The old hippocampal lesion strikes
>again. :-) Either it was Blas Minor, a 27-year-old reliever who is
>frankly running out of chances to make it, but who has been pitching
>much better this year than last, or it was Joe Ausanio, also 27, who
>was the Bison closer this year and throws a split-finger thingie and a
>fastball.

Minor was the callup.

>But, most importantly, Karen and I are expecting our first child
>at the end of September, and I can tell already that life will
>never be the same.  (It's going to be better.) 

Congratulations!

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cone threw how many pitches?
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:40:07 GMT
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853

In article <20218@bunker.shel.isc-br.com> jerry@bunker.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald J. Lanza) writes:
>***********************************************************************
>|>Besides, the game was different then.  Pitchers didn't go all out
>|>on every pitch.  Probably less stressful.
>***********************************************************************
>
>	Now that's a scientific statement if I ever saw one. May I ask
>	how one arrives at the conclusion that the game was less
>	stressful for pitcher's back then ?

It is a commonly held belief among baseball people that the old-time
pitchers saved their "best stuff" for key situations.  Perhaps it is
merely another myth.  But it might have something to do with it.

>	The fact of the matter is that pitcher's pitched every fourth
>	game, and therefore had one less day of rest between games.

Which actually should lead to *more* stamina, not less.  The ideal
training schedule is to be out there exercising as soon as your body
has recovered from the last time.  I don't quite understand why
starting pitchers need so long to recover from a start.  Unless they
are actually *damaging* their bodies, they should be fully recovered
after two.

>	The reason for today's pitcher's apparent fraility may be due
>	to the softer life style to which we all have become accustomed.

Or it may be due to more pitches per batter.  Or the pitchers may be
throwing harder (and more hard breaking balls).  Or the mound might be
lower, forcing them to throw more with their arms and less with their
legs.  Blaming it on a "softer lifestyle" is easy, but doesn't explain
why baseball players are so much faster and stronger than they used to
be.  Or is speed/strength detrimental to endurance?

>	P.S. Check out some of Nolan Ryan's pitch counts in the past.
>	     I believe he has thrown well over 200 pitches in games.

How about other pitchers of that era?  Did they throw equally many
pitches?  Did they have long or short careers?  We all know that Ryan
is a robot, so he is a poor example to use.

-Valentine
-- 
Vaughn, Irvine, Valentin...  Where is Wedge?	tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: djohnson@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:53:29 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.231008.4682@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>It depends upon whether the player is performing adequately at his job or
>not, what the needs of the team are, and what I could get for him.  I
>certainly wouldn't automatically trade him because he publically
>complained.  Public complaints may be just as strong a sign of managerial
>shortcomings as any problem with the player himself.

Assume the player is filling a good role as a backup, say a fourth outfielder,
He doesn't play a lot but is now causing problems in the Clubhouse, but the
team still needs a player to fill his role as backup if injuries occur.  Would
you trade him for a player with good off field qualities and equal on field
numbers.

>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com

--David Johnson
From: sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: As/Twins Show-Down-9    7/27/92
Date: 28 Jul 92 03:35:16 GMT
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo


The As today delivered a serious message to the high flying
Twins...."Wake up and smell the coffee: Any road to the pennant
will go through Oakland.

Steinbach and the Atletics were all business right from the word go
at the dome as they won game-8 , which is the first
of the 3-game series, and reduced the Twins' lead
to 2 games in the AL-west.

The As bludgeoned the Twins 9-1 and were on the move
right from inning 1 when catcher Steinbach hit a 3-run
homer off Smiley after Smiley had struck off the first
two batters.

Steibach had 4RBIs in the game.To cap it, the As had a grand-slam
off Bob kipper in the top of the 9th. As' pitcher, Welch frustrated
the Twins and had them hitless for almost 7 innings, until
Larkin drove in Hrbek for the Twins' only run of the game.

The As dominated this tie. Tomorrow, Scott Erickson goes against
Moore for game-9.

S.H
Forever a Twins' fan
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 23:51:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.124822.256@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul26.181556.1714@panix.com>, spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
>> I don't claim that RC/27 is a perfect stat - there is no such thing - but
>> it gives you a reasonable idea of player performance because it places what
>> the player does in context.
>
>	It certianly doesn't see to be, though I am arguing from ignorance
>here. If RC/27 is adjusted for *teams* runs scored, then I don't see a gaping
>hole.  If, on the other hand, the team's overall performance doesn't come into
>play, then the stat is severely flawed. If the latter is true, ignore the next
>paragraph.
>	
>	For example, take player A and B, two full-time players from two 
>different teams. A has a RC/27 of 7, and B has a RC/27 of 8, then this would 
>seem to indicate that player B is slightly better. However, if player A's 
>team scored only 500 runs for the season, and player B's scored 750, it would
>seem that player A is actually better, adjusting for the team.

I hope that you don't mean that!  Everyone knows that Roberto Alomar is a
better offensive player than Rene Gonzales, but if we use your reasoning,
if we "adjust" Alomar's offense by the great offense the Blue Jays have,
and "adjust" Gonzales' by the horrible offense the Angels have, then Gonzales
is a better offensive player than Alomar?  I certainly hope that is not what
you meant.

Park effect adjustments, though, can come into play, if that is what you mean.
>	
>	Could someone post the formula for RC/27, BTW?

A = (H + BB + HB - CS - GIDP)
B = (H + 2B + 2 * 3B + 3 * HR + .26 * (BB + HB - IBB) + .52 * (SB + SH + SF))
C = AB + BB + HB + SF + SH
RC = A * B / C
O = (AB - H + CS + SF + SH + GIDP)
RC/27 = RC / O * 27

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:37:13 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Jul22.121723.28133@ra.msstate.edu> maj1@Ra.MsState.Edu  
(Mark "Beren" Jamison) writes:
> In article <Brr3Dx.Ey8@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>  
djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
> >In article <10010651@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc  
Sabatella) writes:
> >>In rec.sport.baseball, djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)  
writes:
> >>
> >>Do you really mean to say you'd take the lesser player if he gave  
100% effort?
> >>Awfully sweet of you, but not conducive to winning, which is what a  
lot of us
> >>enjoy.
> >
> >If the lesser player can improve the clubhouse atmosphere which in  
turn
> >may improve the the teams performance on the field then of course I  
would
> >take the less talented player.
> >
> 
> So you are telling me that if both Barry Bonds and Dan Gladden were  
availible
> to your team , you would take dan Gladden??!??

If my team had a solid outfield and really needed pitching, perhaps.

I think where this "choosing the lesser player who has a good
attitude" comes into play is when the players are reasonably close.
For example:

Player A:   OBA: .340    OPS:  .800   Grumpy, hard to get along with.
Player B:   OBA: .325    OPS:  .765   Leader-type, known to help
                                      loosen folks up in the clubhouse.

Let's also say that A and B are pretty comprable on defense, and
have similar stolen base figures.  

In this case, things are close enough that I would probably take B. 
If nothing else, someone who helps make those around him feel a bit
more up and ready to go probably helps them make at least marginal
improvements in their performance, which serve to offset the small
differences is the individual stats between A and B.

Now, if A's OBA was .380 and his OPS .950, well, that's a different
story.  I'd put up with grumpyness for that much difference.


--
Jim Mann       jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  Stratus Computer
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Best Looking Swing
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:00:05 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <92204.121229ALWHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> ALWHC@CUNYVM.BITNET writes:
>
>    When I watch a good hitter at the plate, they will show the swing of the
>  hitter in slow motion. IMHO the best looking swings I've seen are:
>        1) Dave Justice
>        2) Will Clark
>        3) Don Mattingly
>        4) George Brett

Mattingly doesn't do much for me, especially after his back problems.  I 
definitely agree on the other three, though.  I'd also add

	 5) Fred McGriff
	 6) Darryl Strawberry
	 7) Barry Bonds

Best right-handed swing: Craig Grebeck, of all people.
Ugliest swing from either side:  Willie McGee.

-- 
        David Tate         |   When I was a rookie arm and bit 
  dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu  |   And the greenest hurler to take the mound
  Prof. of Story Problems  |   (Sighed the old southpaw, dying of innings)...
  Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR  | 	"Lament", Dylan 'Big Frank' Thomas
From: str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM (Todd Rader)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: KTVU presents the Carney Lansford Sycophant contest!
Date: 21 Jul 1992 22:15:57 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: maredsous
Keywords: Tree Stump Lovers of the Bay Area

Here in the Bay Area the most popular evening newscast (KTVU Channel 2,
Fox/Ind) has a sports anchor who absolutely fawns over Carney Lansford.
The sportscaster's name is Mark Ibanez (put a tilde over the n), and here
are some of his tidbits this season:

"Watch this play by Carney Lansford, and isn't it great to have HIS defense
back in the lineup this year."  (this was accompanied by a shot of one
of Carney's patented fall-over dives)

"And here's Carney Lansford, showing some of that great D at the hot corner
that we missed last year."

..and last night's coup de grace...

"...this guy [Carney, of course] could be the A's MVP right now..."

What is it about Carney that causes media types to fawn over him like this?
"Cancer" quotes must be popular sportswriter fodder.



Organization: Senior, IM - MCS/CIT Track, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:58:33 -0400 
From: Pravin Devineni Ratnam <pr0i+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: BOOM BOOM BELINDA



I say this not because he is such a hard thrower, but because the baqll
leaves the batter's bat even faster.A few weeks ago, I read a Sporting
News articles which said that Belionda was the worst reliever when it
came to preventing the inherited runners from scoring. Ever since I read
that article, I noticed  that almost every time Belinda came to the
mound, he gave up a home run which scored the inherited runners too. 

I used to be a fan of Belinda. Now, i am getting tired of his inabiltiy
to throw more than one kind of pitch. Did you see the pitch served up tp
Sosa in Wednesdya's game? It was the perfect pitch to throw for a
homerun. 

Roger Mason is as bad as Belinda in giving up homeruns. Not even Kipper
gave up so many homeruns last year.  The relief is getting scary. 

Why is Carlos Garcia still in the mnors while Wehner is in the majors?
They should trade Lind and get some relief pitching in return(it's not
going to be easy considering the Pirates' inability to get a good deal
for themselves).
From: tjs@earth.wustl.edu (tom sullivan)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Pedro Guerrero
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:25:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: wuecl.1992Jul21.152516.10309
Distribution: na
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO

In article <UeP0Z6_00iUy41CpUi@andrew.cmu.edu> Todd Harris Fletcher <tf0y+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>Does anyone have any speculation as to whom the Cardinals are going to
>protect?
>
>Let's seee.....you'll have to bear with me (Pirate fan).....
>
>The first ten should be easy:
>
>Ray Lankford
>Felix Jose
>Brian Jordan
>Todd Zeile
>Tom Pagnozzi
>Donavan Osborne
>Mike Perez
>Omar Olivares
>Bob Tewksbury
>Lee Smith
>
>
>Out of those guys I'd probably say....
>
>Mark Clark
>Rigo Beltran
>Allen Watson
>John Kelly
>Rheal Cormier
>
>Don't be surprised if they leave Lee Smith or Bob Tewksbury unprotected
>or trade them before the end of this season so they can protect Ericks
>and Brewer.


I wouldn't be surprised to see Smith traded; however, if he is traded,
you must consider protecting Worrell. 

Also, You've totally forgotten Bernard Gilkey. There's now way they
will leave Gilkey unprotected.  He's hitting .329 right now and is our
best left fielder. I still say he's going to be a better player than
Ray Lankford, given a bit more time.

Expect to see either Oquendo or Pena protected. I suspect that Pena
will be the likely candidate, as Oquendo is not worth his big
contract.


One thing for sure, they won't protect Andres Galaraga :)


tom
From: mace.cc.purdue.edu!poutsmaj@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Where have all the flakes gone?
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:21:00 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
X-mailer: Stadel 3.4a-227
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

In article <22597@oasys.dt.navy.mil> kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat) 
writes:
>In rec.sport.baseball, U39730@uicvm.uic.edu (Norma Kateeb) writes:
>>Are there any modern day flakes left in baseball?
>>Okay fans--is there anyone today--be it player, manager, GM, umpire--
>>ANYONE who adds some life and fun to the game today?
>
My mind can't think of the name right now but I recall a very loud NL
umpire who uses an exxagerated motion when calling balls and strikes
(pardon the euphemisms).  What is his name?

paul
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kaufman@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Ken Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Twins/Bo-Sox Game-8.......7/23/92 evening game
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 13:14:29 GMT

In article <92206.48084.6669030@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> 6669030@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>>You realize that there's only one way to stop rainouts from happening....

>Dome 'em all !!!!!!!!

>Wrigleydome
>Tigerdome
>Orioles Park at Camden Domes
>Comiskeydome
>Jack Murphy Dome
>Candlestick Dome  (actually not a bad idea)

Let us not forget that there *was* a rainout at the Astrodome during the
mid-70s.  Flooding in Houston was so bad that no one could get to the
park.

     ...
     Oakland Domeoleum
     Yankee Dome
     Skydomedome (in case the first roof gets stuck open)
     (and getting even more anal) Three Domes Stadium
     ...

And was there a snow-out or just the threat thereof at the Metrodome
when an April snowstorm caused the roof to deflate?


BTW, does anyone have any idea why it takes the Astrodome three full
weeks to set up for a four-day convention?  Are these guys paid by the
hour?

==Ken
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: More on Big Frank
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:36:38 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <3575@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
>As of about a week and a half ago, Frank Thomas was on a pace to finish the
>season with 309 times on base and 286 total bases.  (My McThang didn't arrive
>on time this week.)  If Frank can pull that up to 300 total bases and 300 
>times on base, he will be the first player in over 30 years to have back to
>back 300/300 seasons.  Can you name the last 3 players to put two such seasons
>back to back?

Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Hank Greenberg?   These guys are
always showing up as answers to batting questions...

Dave
-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029