HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Re: Bi-wariness
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:37:13 GMT

In article <1ieundINNfrl@transfer.stratus.com>
     pfieland@citron.sw.stratus.com (Peggy Fieland) writes:

>What I had a really hard time with was the open, this time, admission
>from a couple of the women, that they'd never, ever, become involved
>with a bisexual, the subtext being, as far I could tell, "Even if we
>were right for each other, I'd never even ask you out because you're
>bisexual".

   Of course, "to be right for one another" means you two meet some
mutually satifactory conditions, and for those women one of those
conditions is that you not be bisexual.  (Gods, that's such a clinical
look at dating, but honest...  anyway...)

   You want my honest opinion, Peggy?  Forget about them.  "A couple of
women" said that, but not all of them.  I get the same thing from some
gay men sometimes, and personally I could care less.  They don't want
me; that's fine, I'm not going to put in the effort of getting to know
them well enough to decide if I want them or not.

>It was worse this time, because Saturday I went to my first
>woman's dance.  I had a great time, did some dancing and a lot
>of talking, but felt really broken up again on the way home.

   *Hugs* and *Snugs*, Peggy.  Take care of yourself, really.  We need
people like you around here.

         Elf !!!
--
elf@halcyon.com  (Elf Sternberg)

Then, I was inspired.               God, thy will is hard
Now, I'm sad and tired.             But you hold every card.
Listen, surely I've exceeded        I will drink your cup of poison.
Expectations.                       Nail me to your cross and break me.
Tried for three years,              Bleed me, beat me.
Seems like thirty.                  Kill me.
Could you ask as much               Take me now.
From any other man?                 Before I change my mind.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: safarj@aix.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar)
Subject: Re: Bloody Media
Distribution: soc.bi
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 19:13:16 GMT

Ellen <DICKSONE@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:

>-El, going to wash her *brain* out with soap
>|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|
>|"I shall surpress my every urge."                                       |
>|       -The Tick, when asked to act `normal' when Arthur's sister visits|

Can I help? ;)
-Points (VERY silly Dragon)
-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
 If the President won't do it to his wife, he'll do it to his Country. -Unknown
________________________________________________________________________________
Jonah E. Safar             R.P.I., Troy, NY              EMail to:safarj@rpi.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly)
Subject: Re: Bi-wariness
Organization: Rational
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:59:55 GMT

litterst@pistachio.cns.udel.edu (Stephen Litterst) writes:

>In article <1ieundINNfrl@transfer.stratus.com> pfieland@citron.sw.stratus.com (Peggy Fieland) writes:

>couple of things that may help you.  THere seem to be two classes of gays in
>general... Those who went from straight directly to gay, and those who stopped
>in with the bi community for a while.  I've noticed that the former tend to be
>less accepting of the bi communtiy and the latter (having been there themselves)

With lesbians, there are two camps of anti-bi`s.  There are those who
have been deeply hurt by men in their past and who cannot accept
that a woman who loves women would also have dealings with men.  There
are also those who themselves used bisexuality as an acceptable front
for their attraction to motss, and feel that others who claim to be bisexual
are doing the same thing.  These people can be virulently anti-bi 
because they are despising what they once were themselves.

Lesbians who are strictly Kisey 6 and very self-assured about their
sexuality tend to have few problems with bi women.

And then of course there the women who would be men (said fondly thinking
of a couple of my friends :-) ) who don`t have a problem with bi women -
but they will insist on calling you straight.  And naturally they
prefer you that way .....  :-)  Its a lot of fun to "convert" a straight
women, particularly if she is already inolved with a man.  

Anyway - this is just my experience of the world!

Iseult.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore)
Subject: Re: Bi-wariness
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 20:26:16 GMT

In article <C0L7zH.HoH@world.std.com> smoir@world.std.com (Scott A Moir) writes:
>In article <C0KKq3.DKK@news.udel.edu> seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore) writes:
>>In article <1ikrip$7vb@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>>>
>I disagree with you that GL people are 'invalidated' by het people. That
>would give het people too much power. They may be oppressive, they may be
>rude, but they don't have that kind of power.
>
OK I was speaking from past experience.  When I was first dealing with
my Orientation I was unsure about it.  I was invalidated by biphobia.
In the GL and the het community.  I think that it is a *very* powerful
invalidating agent for the closetted or confused.

>A phobia, by definition is a fear. It isn't rational. Asking them why they
>don't like you will probably not get you the answers that you are looking
>for. Most of the reasons I have heard have been pretty lame. There has
>only been one concern that has been brought up to me that wasn't all that
>offensive. "What do women do for you?" or "How can I compete with what I
>don't understand?" 
>
I have found that questioning and investigation may not produce immediate
results but it will plant seeds of doubt in their mind.  And if they look
dumb and irrational then they will be forced to reevaluate their stance.

>>I sort of think that if they believe in equality on the basis of sexual orien-
>>tation they do have a duty to consistency to listen and care.
>
>But in the end, they will only see what they are willing to see. I am
>surprised how often I get the "Oh, Bi's are fine, just not around me" bit.
>They don't realize how two faced that is.
>
I'm serious.  I think that by pointing it out and driving the point home
they will realize something.  I think that this is the way to work with the 
het community.  I think that this is the way to work with the GL community.
I know I have painted them out to be enemies and this is not my intent
Rather just the bigots in those sectors.  Deconstruct their stereotypes.
Deconstruct their phobia.  Get rid of their irrational bigotry.  

>Scott
>
Jim, The fencesitter, the "confused about his sexuality", the switchhitter
	the one who likes his bread buttered on both sides. :)

-- 
Jim Dilmore - seamus@brahms.udel.edu    or    dilmore@che.udel.edu 
   Deconstruct your Gender          Safe sex doesn't mean no sex.          
If you can't be good,               It just means use your imagination. 
be good at it.  T.B.                     Billy Bragg 
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons)
Subject: Re: Not that this has any bi content...
Organization: Department of Atomic Text Units
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:09:30 GMT

In article <C0pvnn.23F@news.udel.edu> jcarroll@bach.udel.edu (James Carroll) writes:
|...but the group is the only way I have of contacting UK residents.

   (snicker)

   To say nothing of contacting people who buy 10-ride tickets for
flying from the US to the UK :-)

                 ____
   david parsons \bi/  "six trips in 14 months?"
                  \/
From: sa121@cl.cam.ac.uk (S. Arrowsmith)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: What's a "partner"? (was Re: treating men as sex toys)
Date: 7 Jan 93 16:22:14 GMT
Reply-To: SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk
Organization: Glad to be Sad

In article <1ihcqhINN6rm@cuda.add.itg.ti.com> 
	winsor@Not Heresomewhere.out.there (js) writes:
>What is exactly wrong with "sex-with-anyone-that-will-hold-still" being
>a viable definition of "bisexual"?  I understand that it is not yours, or
>mine for that matter, but I think that it has merit in this:  If someone
>is *willing* to have sex-with-anything-that-moves (we assume human, for now),
>then I believe that that willingness necessarily implies bisexuality.
>
Point being that it doesn't *define* bisexuality -- it is only a criterion
by which a person may be judged ( bisexual | undetermined ).  A definition
needs to include all (well, virtually all) people who might by some 
appropriate heuristic be considered "bisexual" for it to be useful.  This
one clearly fails....

--
\S
SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk | "Internet is so big, so powerful and pointless that for
        ___         |  some people it is a complete substitue for life."
        \X/         |     -- Andrew Brown, The Independent
From: gdb15@grebe.cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: What's a "partner"? (was Re: treating men as sex toys)
Date: 8 Jan 93 16:32:51 GMT
Reply-To: gdb15@cl.cam.ac.uk
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

In article <1993Jan8.130709.13566@news.acns.nwu.edu> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.025608.29819@tcsi.com> 
> miket@hermes.tcs.com (Michael Turner nmscore Assoc.) writes:
>>
>>I've mentioned a book in this group, _Men and Friendship_.  One of
>>the more interesting points in it is that women have these kinds
>>of "emotional relationships", as tight as almost any monogamous
>>bond, but that it is exceedingly rare among men -- or straight men,
>>anyway.  The book is in part a document of the (hetero) author's
>>quest for something that close with another man.
>
>With the majority of men it is easier to build relationships on
>something less personal that feelings -- like work or sports -- there
>may be bonds built up, but women tend to be more open to getting
>into feelings up-front.  

This is the received wisdom, but I'm not sure how close it is to the
truth.  I think we seem to be settling on a definition of "emotional
relationship" as one that involves the sharing of feelings to a
substantial extent (it's hard to imagine a relationship that was based
*solely* on the sharing of feelings, except perhaps in artificial
situations like co-counselling).  Building up a relationship on some
shared interest doesn't of course preclude the sharing of feelings,
and may indeed make it easier (all you have to say is "I really
enjoy/hate doing X", and you're off).  On the other hand, I've known
people who were quite accomplished at talking about their feelings,
but I wouldn't have called it an "emotional relationship" because
there was no real dialogue: listening to them talking about themselves
was like listening to someone talk about a hobby you've no interest
in.  

I think the issue is much more how good people are at sharing in
general: not just feelings but ideas, enthusiasms and all other
aspects of themselves.  This isn't a characteristic I associate
particularly with one sex or the other.








--
Guy Barry, University of Cambridge | Phone: +44 (0)223 334757 
Computer Laboratory                | Fax: +44 (0)223 334678
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street  | JANET: Guy.Barry@uk.ac.cam.cl 
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England, UK     | Internet: Guy.Barry@cl.cam.ac.uk
From: gdb15@grebe.cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: treating men as sex toys
Date: 6 Jan 93 10:55:12 GMT
Reply-To: gdb15@cl.cam.ac.uk
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

>In article <MUFFY.92Dec24114049@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>
>>
>>Without getting into "what is *really* bisexual," my personal definition
>>of bisexual is not simply having sex with both men and women, but being
>>*interested* in both men and women, as people, as emotional partners, as
>>well as as sexual partners.  

What do you mean by "emotional partner" (as distinct from a close friend)?

--
Guy Barry, University of Cambridge | Phone: +44 (0)223 334757 
Computer Laboratory                | Fax: +44 (0)223 334678
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street  | JANET: Guy.Barry@uk.ac.cam.cl 
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England, UK     | Internet: Guy.Barry@cl.cam.ac.uk
From: rwab1@cl.cam.ac.uk (Ralph Becket)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: TV..The drug of a nation
Date: 5 Jan 93 09:37:01 GMT
Reply-To: Ralph.Becket@cl.cam.ac.uk
Organization: U of Cambridge Comp Lab, UK

A new face - hi Zina! Thanks for the mail, let me know if you got my reply:
I had a little difficulty getting mail to accept your address.

Anyway, warm cuddles'n'stuff!

	Ralph
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Purity
Followup-To: soc.bi
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 13:59:08 GMT

In article <93005.004022SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> 
Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>The defintion in question, which I continue to find a good thumb
>rule, asserts that someone is probably an adult if, when you say
>something they do not understand, ask you what you mean, rather than
>telling you you are crazy.

I don't know if I'd use this as a critera of "adulthood", but I find
it refreshing as a standard of civility.  (In which context I am reminded
of Gandhi's response when asked "What do you think of Western Civililization":

 "I think it would be a good idea."

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: jcarroll@bach.udel.edu (James Carroll)
Subject: Blatant hug request
Summary: support needed 
Keywords: hugs, support
Organization: University of Delaware Alumni
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 06:27:10 GMT

This Sat. is my graduation ceremony.  (Yay!)  The only downside (besides
still being unemployed) is that my family will be spending the next two
days down here.  As I've mentioned before, they are quite conservative and
openly homophobic.  

I'm not usually forward enough to request hugs, but I have a feeling I'm
going to need lots of moral support to get through this weekend -- the
phone lines were full of tension this evening.

Being in a closet really sucks.  (But y'all know that already. 1/2 :) )
But I feel losing my family would be worse.  (My mom has repeatedly said,
with heavy negative connotations, that she wouldn't know what to do if I was
gay.)  Other relatives have expressed very anti-lesbigay opinions; I know
that if I came out, the nature of my relationships with my cousins
(which I treasure) would change to a shadow of their former selves.

Now if only someone would hire me soon so I don't have to move back in
with my parents. *shudder*  Not that they're bad people/don't love me/I don't
love them/home's a horrible place, but I don't have the freedom I really
want and need when I'm there.

Well, I'm going to go now before I have too large of an outburst and
outpouring of emotion.  (Who me? Introverted?)

Thanks all for being here and for support over the months.

-James
-- 
I don't mind if I never, ever meet you		   | 			____
I love you just the way you seem		   | jcarroll@		\bi/
I don't mind all the things they say about you	   |  brahms.udel.edu	 \/
Jealous words won't spoil this dream - Jesus Jones |__________________________
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: eowyn@chopin.udel.edu (Zoe Antonia Velonis)
Subject: Re: Anyone read Sandman?
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:59:27 GMT

In article <C0rDFo.6G1@news.udel.edu> eowyn@chopin.udel.edu (Zoe Antonia Velonis) writes:

>Desire is cute, too; but it's personality leaves something to be desired...

Oh my deity.

I did it.  I accidentally (yeah sure,  I can hear all you guys saying) misused
the apostrophe.  It should have been "its", not "it's"
Oh my.  They're going to exile me from the privilege of being an English Major.
There goes my career!

I'll also take this opportunity to add that I really can't say anything else 
about the weekend until I talk with the people involved....But I have nothing
against all of you knowing!

Zoe



Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: nigel@kathunk.phaedrav.on.ca (Nigel M Burnett)
Subject: Re: Purity
Organization: as little as possible
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:57:13 GMT

Ellen (DICKSONE@QUCDN.QueensU.CA) wrote:
: >Helm, lock in on Muffin... Fire hugs one and two...
: ><Sound FX>
: ><Hug!>  <Hug!>
: >Direct hits.  Status?
: 
: *oommmmph!*  (and again)  *oommmmph*
: 
: heh, I think I could get to like this place (once I get my breath back)

It's a pretty decent and friendly place.  I think you will like it here.

Nigel (hoping for someone to take my breath away)

-- 
The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of
a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.  His own
good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant.   John Stuart Mill

Nigel Burnett: 78 Normandy Blvd, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M4L 3K3 416-690-1834
Send e-mail to nigel@kathunk.phaedrav.on.ca or try uunet.ca!kink!kathunk!nigel
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: kamal@specialix.co.uk (Kamal Mortoza)
Subject: Re: A hug request and a general growl at the world
Organization: Specialix International, London
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:26:23 GMT

Beleive me - I know the feelings you describe. Stuck in provincial England,
you find pretty much the same attitudes towards anything that isn't 
vanilla puritanical-white-straight-conservative....
But - every-so-often I meet the odd enlightened soul or kindered spirit and
it doesn't seem quite as bad. Our group (soc.bi) by it's openness helped
as well!

Hang in there - and Oh! by the way -

HUGS*HUGS*HUGS*HUGS*HUGS*HUGS*HUGS

Love
Kamal

-- 


=============================================================================
			|
From: bethan@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Bethan Davies)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: more music....
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:48:43 GMT
Followup-To: soc.bi
Distribution: soc.bi
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK


I thought it was about time I posted some fluff. I've been _far_ too 
serious lately....

I was trying to remember who it was that was going on about the Barenaked
Ladies....

Orc....?   Mike...?

Well, I went to see them in Edinburgh last night (amidst the snow...),
and they were truly wonderful.

Their cover of The Smith's 'Still ill' was hysterical, The Proclaimer's
cover for the encore was pretty funny too... jeez, what a _tonic_
_Highly_ recommended.

So, musos, what LPs do you recommend..? (I'm just about to go and collect 
the grant cheque - rubs hands...)


                           Bethan (the lighter of spirit)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: shogan@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (Empress Sue)
Subject: Re: Purity
Reply-To: shogan@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 02:13:55 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.194426.5030@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, kay@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Kay Dekker) writes:
>In article <93001.193910SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>In article <C071s6.H0G@demon.co.uk>, gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
>>says:
>>>In article <93001.140156SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon
>>><SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>>:[MANY, MANY QUOTES deleted due to bandwidth consideration...]
>
>But... "No man is an island", as dear old John Donne remarked.  A
>phrase lovely to me, ever since I, sitting quietly at a party, and
>seeming somewhat sad, had a dear man wander up to me, and over the
>tumult, murmur "No mayonnaise in Ireland".  "Do what?", I asked, a
>tad perplexed.  "No mayonnaise in Ireland," he iterated.  "Then what
>do they put in their sandwiches, then?" I said, bewilderedly.  Shaking
>his head sadly, he wandered away into the throng.  It was a goodly while
>before I realised what he'd been saying.
>
>				Kay
>-- 
>the Crisco Kid: nasty pinko faggot agnostic pervert punk.  idx009@uk.ac.cov.cck

It's 9:09pm...I should be at home vegging instead of in front of my 
terminal vegging.  Then I come across this little gem.  First it's the 
perplexed look, then I check again to make sure I'm alone, then I say 
it out loud.  I start giggling...can't control it...start 
laughing...can't control it...now I'm sitting here laughing hysterically.  
I just know it's about time for the guard to make his rounds.  He 
thinks I'm weird enough as it is.  Got to get myself under control 
<wipes tears from eyes, takes deep breath which threatens to becomes 
more giggles, stifles it, lets out breath>  Okay...in control again...

Thankyouthankyouthankyou!  I needed that!

Sue (Banimpire)

S.M. Hogan   | IHP/Heller School/Rm. G17/Brandeis University
617/736-3951 | Waltham, MA 02254-9110     [Add Disclaimer Here]
    /-------------------------------------------------------------\
  /|\      A simple formula for avoiding confusion is to never    /|\ 
<<<*>>>         let yourself get befuddled by an unclear        <<<*>>>
  \|/        understanding of what you're mixed up about. |-D     \|/
    \-------------------------------------------------------------/
   When patterns are broken, new worlds emerge. --> Tuli Kupferberg
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore)
Subject: Re: A hug request and a general growl at the world
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 07:13:40 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.054813.19378@udel.edu> litterst@pecan.cns.udel.edu (Stephen Litterst) writes:
>>
>But I just spent a weekend at a sci-fi convention (EveCon 10) where safety
>and discretion were not as much of a concern.  Now, I'm not bi, per se, but 
>I'm affectionate that I often get the label and some of the responses associ-
>ated with it.  But at this con, everyone just acted like who they were and
>said and did what they wanted to.  That openness is wonderful and it's a shame
>that it doesn't exist everywhere.
>>
>| Stephen C. Litterst           |  Nice guys finish last...              |

How true.  I like the label of bisexuality because to me it represents the
closest position to the rejection of artificial distinctions as I can get.
But yet with it I can still find an identity and a community.  I think that
the labels of het, gay, bi and such are intrinsically false and that they
needn't exist if the above conditions prevailed. 

Jim, feeling rejuvenated by all of the lovely hugs which I got. 
-- 
Jim Dilmore - seamus@brahms.udel.edu    or    dilmore@che.udel.edu 
   Deconstruct your Gender          Safe sex doesn't mean no sex.          
Give me life, Give me pain,         It just means use your imagination. 
Give me myself again.  Tori Amos.            Billy Bragg 
Newsgroups: soc.bi