HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bmccnnll@unix1.tcd.ie (Barry McConnell)
Subject: Re: World of Commodore Toronto
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:28:43 GMT

In <1992Dec12.180805.26396@seas.gwu.edu> gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington) writes:

>No big loss, I think.  The Amiga already has virtual memory--two versions,
>I believe.  I have not had a need for memory protection.

At 3am thismorning, I had a *dire* need for MP. A C program I had been working
on that evening crashed, giving the cute "Suspend/Reboot" requestor. I clicked
"Suspend", went back into TurboText, made a couple of changes, selected Save,
and the machine instantly gave me another "Suspend/Reboot" requestor, this time
claiming TTX was at fault (presumably because the previous "crash" had 
overwritten something important).

I really had no choice but to reboot, and when the system came up again, I
discovered - to my absolute horror - that my C program was now a zero-byte
long file; presumably the machine had crashed at the exact point when the
old file had been deleted and the new one had just been opened.

A whole evening's work - gone! Even if MP had made my C program compile 20%
slower, that would have been preferable to having to re-do it from scratch
at 3am.

Moral 1: Always, always, always keep backups. Even if you've only been working
on something for an hour, copy it somewhere else regularly. (This doesn't just
apply to the Amiga: I've had FileMaker Pro on the Mac frequently crash and make
a good attempt at ruining my database, which is rather annoying when a customer
is paying you $x to develop it for them.)

Moral 2: If you get a "Task failed" requestor, it doesn't mean "Since I didn't
get an immediate GURU, nothing really bad has happened." You should reboot if
at all possible.

On the other hand, I have no need for VM. I have plenty of SIMM sockets, and
I know how to use them. ;-)

Barry.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: suopanki@stekt3.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki)
Subject: Re: NO MORE *&#*$(^*& FEMALE BIMBO ADS!!!!!!!!
Reply-To: suopanki@phoenix.oulu.fi
Organization: Unixverstas Olutensin, Finlandia
	<1992Dec2.062017.2622@newton.ccs.tuns.ca> <BzAB6x.L30@starnine.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:43:20 GMT

>>>>> On Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:59:20 GMT, mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) said:

Mike> And we are a world leader.  In every front.  

yes, you really are.
like number of teen pregnancies, homeless people, people without health
care, people in prisons, murders, infant mortality etc. etc.

-Heikki
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  OS/2 vs Win NT
Distribution: world
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:51:54 EST
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <1992Dec13.171621.718@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran) writes:
>In article <Bz6pvo.MJ2@news.cso.uiuc.edu> nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>(Nishith A. Patel) writes:
>
>>>>A server is a system that sits in the corner and grinds away.
>>>I have a hard time believing that this is all NT will amount to.
>
>>believe it. 
>>MS is just trying to put something called windows everywhere, and NT is
>>supposed to be their high end OS. But I think it will only find use equivalent
>>Unless they call it Windows 3.2 or something. Then it could be very widespread
>
>Only time will tell, but I say they're gunning for the Unix and OS/2 markets,
>using this server strategy as a ploy to avoid another anti-trust investigation.

Since NT does not have telnet or rlogin for TCP/IP sessions, nor does it have
a login for dumb terminal sessions, it will have a hard time competing with
UNIX.

>>Why you would really want to run it on an Amiga or any other computer not
>>being used as a server is something MS will ingeniously figure out to 
>>enlighten all windows users or prospective users.
>
>No doubt.

NT does one thing well.  It will act as a server for people running Windows.

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran)
Subject: Re:  OS/2 vs Win NT
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:45:23 GMT

In article <71842@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>P.S. Tell Bill I have some 7-11 coupons I'm not using if he want them.

Ouch! That was a good one :).

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: Winfried.Krueger@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (Winfried Krueger)
Subject: Re: Future Amiga chipset
Organization: University of Oldenburg, Germany
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:38:32 GMT

mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:

>In <Bz85pK.DHt@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>   You are brainless.

>Marc, beginning a letter with an insult is not polite.

[...]

That's exactly what I think...

But then

mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:

>In <Bz84Aw.CGt@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>How long will the Amiga market have to wait for memory protection and OS
>>features to make AmigaOS virus-resistant?

>Marc, you are an asshole. 

[...]

Don't you read your own articles?

>Regards,
>-- 
>Michael van Elst

winnie.
From: TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Help me not to change computers!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:36:03 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec14.184846.1256146@sue.cc.uregina.ca> <1gjjp8INNmnr@uwm.edu>

>I've liked very few games, and very few games hold my attention.  Let
>me list three of the ones that do, and always have, and I still
>reminisce over:
>
>Bard's Tale I
>Bard's Tale II
>Bard's Tale III

In the "different strokes" department. These games have to be the
most cliched things...The whole idea of monsters
in caves, with "parties" and "hit points" and "health points".is
so overworked its hard to believe anyone plays them.

That's okay by me; there are different games because people like
different things. Personally, I think Civilization is the greatest
computer game ever written. But then, someone actually complains
about graphics in a game like this; you could play it on a teletype
and it would be good.

>they come out with some kind of BT game.  Now I know that they can't
>use the Bard's Tale name anymore, that's now stuck with EA.

But of course, Bard's Tale construction set is coming out from Interplay
for the Amiga in the next few months.

TomK@cup.portal.com
Tom Krotchko
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  Future Amiga chipsets
Distribution: world
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:41:00 EST
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <1992Dec16.045856.23782@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran) writes:
>In article <Paula_Lieberman.07ja@amicol.UUCP> Paula_Lieberman@amicol.UUCP (Paula Lieberman) writes:
>
>>re article by Martin Black, mentioning Amiga bus being faster than most
>>other personal computer buses, and "-I haven't looked at workstation buses"
>> -- FutureBus+ ia 64 bits wide, and a couple companies have it available. 
>>However, it's not clear that it's really going much of any where.  MultiBus
>>II seems to be dying off and set adrift by Intel.  VME, initiated long ago
>>by Motorola, continues to survive [though I've SEEN VME buses that used
>>80386es running MS-DOS applications as engines!  I was to put it mildly
>>taken aback at that!].  S-Bus has some adherents, though people complain
>>the form factor is too small.  Eurocard is still out there.......
>
>An interesting aside: after the private discussions by Lew Eggebrecht at
>the WOC in Toronto, several of us had an opportunity to pose questions
>and share insights with Mr. Eggebrecht. One person asked about how RISC
>technology could be incorporated into the platform given the lack of a
>64-bit bus. His response was that a solution was currently be worked on
>to alleviate the problem. Zorro IV anyone? Take it for what it's worth :).

If I wanted a 64 bit workstation, I'd buy a 64 bit workstation.

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root
From: TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  OS/2 vs Win NT (was: 4 Colour Interfaces : -( )
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:35:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <torrie.724115375@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> <71556@cup.portal.com>
  <root.037p@rkamiga.UUCP> <1992Dec12.210131.13639@leland.Stanford.EDU>
  <root.0391@rkamiga.UUCP>
From: jaker@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Jake Rose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reasons for a notebook amiga
Date: 13 Dec 92 00:55:50 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA

In article <Byt3CK.4KL@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
> >Michael
> >-----------
> >I guess this is a sig:  please don't buy anything that comes from
> >Colorado USA until proposition II (rendering civil rights protection for
> >gay, lesbian and bisexual people unconstitutional) is repealed.
> 
> ---
> | Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
> --------------------------------------------------
> EVERYBODY:  BUY PRODUCTS FROM COLORADO, USA WHENEVER YOU CAN!!! :-) :-) :-)
> Support initiatives against giving special priviliges for immoral behavior.

Marc, I always thought you were a bit opinionated, but this kind of disgusting,
unthinking remark shows me that you're not only opinonated, but that you sit at
the bottom of a well and see only the sky (and probably jerk off while you're
down there).  The Colorado proposition which passed has declared that anyone
who doesn't meet the morals of some extremist neo-Nazi groups (primarily
Christian groups, which lends a veneer of morality to their claims, although no
true Christian could support their views of hate) is not guaranteed their
constitutional rights as US citizens.  It's denying these people not special
priviledges, but basic human rights.  You are a sick man, Marc.  Please seek
professional help - most schools offer counseling services for free.
-- 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Jake Rose               :: Join the Nonsequitur Society of America -
jaker@csugrad.cs.vt.edu ::           we don't make sense, but we do like pizza!
From: Ray_Hines@dream.uucp (Ray Hines)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Commodore Amiga Dealerships?
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:19:55 GMT
Organization: DreamStates BBS & CyberNet HQ in G'ville, FL   1-904-331-4317

I'm not exactly sure, but I think I have seen the signatures of some
Commodore employees in this newsgroup (as well as others).  I have a
question for them. :)

How does one find out more details about being an authorized and official
Amiga dealer?  Is there a number I can call?  An address I can write to for
more information?  I know some folks who are interested in this
information.

Also, where can I write (or call) about getting a Commodore Amiga User
Group on Commodore's officially recognized list?

Please Email responses, if you can.  Muchly appreciated!
    
Raymond Hines

-- Via DLG Pro v0.995

* IF replying by MAIL, please reply to the addresses listed below...
--__-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 / /\     Raymond Hines              Internet: Ray_Hines%dream.uucp@ufl.edu
/_/  \  DreamStates BBS                    or: dream!Ray_Hines@ufl.edu
\ \  /   1-904-331-4317                  UUCP: uflorida!dream!Ray_Hines
 \_\/ FidoNet 1:3601/30  DreamStates: An Amiga supporting Amiga, Mac, IBM!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: Why my Amiga is gone
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:52:32 GMT

In <1992Dec10.153011.4103@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>The person I responded to was arguing that the Amiga is the ultimate hacker's
>machine, and that PC's are only good for WordPerfect and other expensive
>software.  Hackers don't need mainstream applications, right?  Well, the Amiga
>may have had that advantage in the past, but with Linux, the tables have
>turned.

I wouldn't say: turned. On the Amiga you can have your 'hacker' environment
and still run mainstream software without switching OSes.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jejones@microware.com (James Jones)
Subject: Re: Anybody there ? Obviously not!
Organization: Microware Systems Corp., Des Moines, Iowa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:19:20 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.111904.22827@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@engws10.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
>	That is an outcome of CBM's lack of advertising. I bought my first
>Amiga at an outlet store, not a dealer. Amigas used to sell in Sears,
>Service Merchandise, Software ETC, and other stores. C64's used to sell
>in the previous, plus KMart, some toy stores, and even Radio Shack. 
>
>	Now They don't. And Apple sells them there instead.

Amigas still sell at least in some of the "other stores;" when I wander
through the electronics section of a nearby Montgomery Wards, there some
Amigas are amid the PClones.

	James Jones
From: Paula_Lieberman@amicol.UUCP (Paula Lieberman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Distribution: world
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:52:22 EDT
Organization: Amiga Colony BBS

Jon M. Taylor jon.taylor@uuserve.cc.utah.edu wrote a paragraph wondering
why people think that Amigas need productivity apps.  The reasons are
simple -- some of us would rather use Amigas a tools than as mindcandy that
not everyone has a taste for.....


-- Via DLG Pro v0.992

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: How does this HAM kludge work?
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:24:20 GMT

Would someone please explain to me the trick behind this 'HAM' technique?

Nothing grossly technical, please.  Also, how might this lead to
the famous 'fringing'?

Thanks--
-- 
Dan Stephenson                                                 das9674@usl.edu  
"There once was a Lady from Hyde/who ate some bad apples and died/but while we
lamented/the apples fermented/making cider inside her inside!" 
                        -Member of the Court, Texas Renaissance Festival  
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dleland@dante.nmsu.edu (LELAND)
Subject: Re:  OS/2 vs Win NT
Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:27:08 GMT

>In article <root.0363@rkamiga.UUCP> root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
>
>>>It's interesting to note that Lew Eggebrecht mentioned in his address at
>>>the WOC in Toronto that the A4000 is both 68060 and RISC-ready. When asked
>>>what advantages RISC would offer to the Amiga line, he immediately
>>>stated Windows NT.
>
>At the moment, this is highly subjective. In retrospect, it may prove to be
>a significant offering.
>

Whoaaa! Now just a second here: I just hear from a dealer in El Paso Texas
that "Microsoft was going to make Windows NT for the Amiga." At the time I
just said, "yeah right, sure they are... and Irving Gould has left Commodore
to me as a Christmas gift..." But now I wonder. I hate to get unfounded wild
speculation going, but this is the second time I've heard of such a thing. 
Why would Microsoft do that? Wouldn't they do it for the Mac (yech) first?
Is this just a wild idea or is it really true? Or what?


Darrell Leland
dleland@nmsu.edu
 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod)
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 12:22:31 GMT

>
>Install America On-Online Software. Run it from a DOS session.
>Let me know what happens.

I didn't say it was impossible to crash OS/2.  That would require
restricting interrupt access to DOS programs and hurting compatibility
(like windows NT).  But I have nevr crashed my system with a game
(which is what we were disucssing) or an OS/2 program.

>>#3.If I decide to cancel my terminal communication and run the DOS
>>game alone, it will probably end up being a better game then an Amiga
>>user's wet dream!
>
>Meaning that you're excited by terminal software? Hey, different
>strokes...

Read it again.  I was talking about the *GAME*.  I don't actually get
excited about games either, but since Amiga users seem to think they
are important (which is not to say that Amiga's are not used for other
things, just that Amiga users in general are more game oriented then
other platform users)  No flames please!  It wasn't a slight, just a
fact.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran)
Subject: Re: OS/2 vs Win NT
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:16:21 GMT

In article <Bz6pvo.MJ2@news.cso.uiuc.edu> nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Nishith A. Patel) writes:

>>>A server is a system that sits in the corner and grinds away.
>>I have a hard time believing that this is all NT will amount to.

>believe it. 
>MS is just trying to put something called windows everywhere, and NT is
>supposed to be their high end OS. But I think it will only find use equivalent
>Unless they call it Windows 3.2 or something. Then it could be very widespread

Only time will tell, but I say they're gunning for the Unix and OS/2 markets,
using this server strategy as a ploy to avoid another anti-trust investigation.

>Why you would really want to run it on an Amiga or any other computer not
>being used as a server is something MS will ingeniously figure out to 
>enlighten all windows users or prospective users.

No doubt.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: Evan J. Torrie <torrie@cs.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: OS/2 vs Win NT (was: 4 Colour Interfaces : -( )
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A74F92BB1702004B@freethought.stanford.edu>
X-Xxdate: Sat, 12 Dec 92 20:59:39 GMT
Organization: Stanford University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d13
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 21:01:31 GMT

In article <root.037p@rkamiga.UUCP> Rick Kelly, root@rkamiga.UUCP writes:
>>Rick Kelly (root@rkamiga.UUCP) wrote:
>>:
>>: 1. NT can only be ported to little endian byte ordered machines.  This
>>:    includes Intel, Alpha, and Mips in "spim" mode.  And leaves out all
>>:    of the other RISC processors and the 68k.
>
>Evidently the internals of the kernel depend on it.  They weren't
flexible
>enough whem writing the code.  Remember, one of the architects of NT was
>also an architect of VMS, another little-endian OS.

  Well, I still find this hard to believe, especially when there have 
been very strong rumours that Microsoft has NT running on Macintoshes 
in Redmond, not to mention the fact that Gates has publicly stated that 
they will have NT running on every RISC processor by 1995.
  Where did you get this information that NT can only be ported to little 
endian byte ordered machines.
  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?      
torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the
past.
"...there is only one thing worse than having marketing people on a
project,
 and that is having no marketing people on a project."  - Larry Tesler.
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re:  Power-up for AGA Machines! rumour.
Distribution: world
Date: 18 Dec 92 02:52:48 EST
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <AHANSFOR.92Dec17002112@bigwpi.wpi.edu> ahansfor@bigwpi.wpi.edu (Andrew L. Hansford) writes:
>>>>>> On 15 Dec 92 13:08:50 EST, root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly) said:
>
>root> In article <1gib3hINNn0l@pith.uoregon.edu> ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles) writes:
>>In article <71644@cup.portal.com> spiercy@cup.portal.com (Scott Kelly Piercy) writes:
>>>my dealer told me (and I used to work for him, so I can trust him,
>>>although I always have doubts of his C= source, simply because I
>>>know C= all too well) that C= will release an AMIGA next year (he
>>>said the time frame was about 4 months from now) that contains the
>>>DEC ALPHA processor.
>>>Totally speculation at this point however
>>
>>   Fat chance. Do you even know what the power requirements for that chip are?
>>It's not just big, it's HUGE. It's not going to happen. Besides, the chip
>>itself is very, very, VERY expensive - not exactly something a company that's
>>conscious about price would put in a computer.
>
>root> And for performance you would need:
>
>root> 1 to 2 megs of 10 to 15 ns static ram cache.  
>You can use slower. Or less.

And take a peformance hit.

>root> A fast peripheral bus controller.  
>
>root> A motherboard that could run at 133 mhz.  A 500
>root> watt powersupply.  
>
>Hey, why not a 200MHz board.  That 500 Watt supply though is huge.

For all the cache, high speed ram, and the high speed peripheral comtrollers.

>root> A complex cpu and cache chip cooling system.
>
>Heat sink and a fan and CAREFULL design.

The DEC design halts the system if it gets "too hot".

>root> A specially shielded cabinet to allow it to be classified for
>root> home use.
>
>Well, you could get by with less, but of course to more you spend the
>better the machine.  High MHz boards will be here sometime, and not
>the entire motherboard needs to run at those rates.  According to many
>sources DEC is planning a PC based on Alpha, and possibly even
>portables (lower speed and a new implementation with a single issue
>architecture and power features maybe).  

The cabinet is very important.  The FCC is very strict these days.

Dec has announced a low end Alpha PC for the end of 1993 or beginning of
1992.  It will cost $7000 stripped.  And it is the only Alpha that has
been announced as having Windows 3.1 NT as an optional OS.

>Having an Amiga based on Alpha is possible.  But what makes the amiga
>an amiga?  The processor?  The chipset?  The OS.  Some combination.
>Could be very interesting to see a port of AmigaDos. (Wow, imagine
>AmigaDos on a Pentium. :^))

One of my reasons for buying an Amiga was the 68k.

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: Dan flipped through an AmigaWorld, and:
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:28:20 GMT

In article <BzBrLq.G9p@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> jaker@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Jake Rose) writes:
>Where are people uploading screen shots of their Workbench screens?  I've been
>complimented on mine several times and would like to help dispell these rumors
>(I will say it would be nice if someone at CBM would wake up and set up the
>defaults to something eye-appealing.  It doesn't take *that* long.  The standard
>icons for disks and so on could use some work, too).
>-- 

Sure, upload them to /pub at usl.edu.

My WPS Os/2 shots are there, and Skips's and some WB2 ones are there too.


>Jake Rose               :: "Never quote a source whose name you've forgotten!"
>jaker@csugrad.cs.vt.edu ::                                       --Whatshisname


-- 
Dan Stephenson                                                das9674@usl.edu  
"There once was a Lady from Hyde/who ate some bad apples and died/but while
we lamented/the apples fermented/making cider inside her inside!" 
                        -Member of the Court, Texas Renaissance Festival  
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy