From: amazon@sgi.com (Stormwind)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:37:44 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: X Industries, Heavy Weapons R&D

(Stephen R Lee) writes:
>(Stormwind) writes:
>>would you care to elucidate on these reasons?
>
>I have, in all previous posts.  Just re-read them.  You don't have to agree
>with me, or even think they are valid concerns.

i'm still not clear on them.  it would 
appear that you believe that animals
are "pre-programmed" in all ways by
their heritage.  i only agree with this 
up to a point.

>>i am not an expert on the ratio of brain size
>>as it affects the ability of an animal to survive,
>>so i am not in any situation to address brain
>>size.  tyrannasaurous rex springs to mind as
>>a contradiction, however.
>
>Tyrannasaurous Rex is not related to wolves or dogs, and to the best of
>my knowledge, was never domesticated.

rex, however, survived absolutely wonderfully
in the wild with a brain the size of a walnut.
this brain size thing is arguably not connected
to anything.

>>i DO know that i have had experience with
>>feral dogs who survived quite well, thank you,
>>and i don't believe that their brain size increased
>>any due to the experience.
>
>Sorry.  I did not mean to imply that dogs could *not* survive in the wild.  They
>just do not *need* to anymore.  I submit that a domesticated dog turned feral
>will not be as "efficient" as surviving in the wild as a wolf, on the average.

of course not.  a wolf, except for the rare occasions
where they are raised in zoos, has been raised *in
the wild by wild parents*.  a hybrid is NOT the same
as "a wolf".

>Good.  But what does this prove?  I'm sure there are many dogs out there in
>net land with similar intelligence stories.  Your original premise was that
>you are breeding superior intellect.  Implicit in your remarks were that
>WH are much smarter than dogs.  I responded by questioning how one determines
>intellect in a nother species, and countered by siting examples as to what
>types of things WH might be smarter at, as opposed to other breeds of dogs.

nearly everything you cited was directly related
to survival in the wild.  how does one determine
intellect in ANY species?  by observing how two
types of animals react to the same stimulus.  my
experiences with our previous dog and with our
hybrid demonstrated that our hybrid was notably
more intelligent based on the way she reacted.  

>>i beg to differ.  there are hundreds, if not 
>>hundreds of thousands, of examples of dogs
>>gone feral who survive perfectly fine in the 
>>wild.  
>
>Yes, note I said "some not at all", meaning that some dogs could probably not
>survive in the wild without help.  Some can.  I maintain that a Mal/Wolf mix 
>is probably better equiped to survive in the wild, mentally and physically
>that many breeds of dogs.  Again, it was an example of what a WH might be
>"smarter" at than other dogs.

i fail to see how physical attributes make an
animal "smarter" to survive in the wild.  
without wilderness upbringing, a hybrid has
only a *slightly* better chance of surviving
in the wild than your average feral dog.

>>no no no.  if you protect humans from themselves,
>>you cause them to lose the concept of responsibility
>>and you train them to be stupid and irresponsible.
>>that's part of the reason we have problems with
>>idiots who think pit bulls are macho, and raise
>>them to be vicious animals.
>
>You were the one that said we are breeding more stupidity in our current breeds
>of dogs, not me.  

wrong.  i specifically stated that we are training
PEOPLE to be more stupid, NOT dogs.  by allowing
joe public to have a knee-jerk reaction and NOT
correcting it, we are teaching the public NOT to 
research the facts before reacting.

>>i completely and totally disagree.  you seem
>>to think that hybrids come "pre-programmed"
>>to survive in the wild.  unless they have been
>>raised in the wild, they are no more prepared 
>>to survive in the wild than any other dog.  somewhat
>>better equipped in terms of fur and claws, perhaps,
>>but certainly not trained.
>
>No, not pre-programmed.  I am assuming, perhaps erroneously, that when you breed
>a wolf to a dog you are getting something from the wolf besides physical 
>characteristics.  

like what, *specifically*?  triss had a lot of peculiar
behaviourisms that i have not observed before
except in some limited species, such as australian
shepards, but i can't even hope to say what kinds
of characteristics you get without going on for 
several hundred lines of stuff.

>>they CAN hurt the public's perception IF
>>the public is utterly misinformed as to the
>>differences vis a vis a hybrid and a wolf
>>and IF the hybrid in question has gotten into
>>some kind of trouble.
>
>Yes.  But we have to live in the real world, don't we?   The general public
>does not understand the difference between a wolf and a WH.  When a WH bites
>someone, to John Q. Public, a wolf has bitten someone.  When he subsequently
>hears talk about the re-introduction to wolves in a place like Yellowstone,
>he says "Hey, I don't want *that* there!  They attack humans!"  Yes, this is
>moronic.  

it also is somewhat disconnected from hybrids.
wolves have *always* had a bad reputation due
to such stories as little red riding hood, and the
general misperception that wolves are people
killers.  people are predisposed to think ill of
wolves anyways.

>>i believe this to be utter nonsense.  does the 
>>pit bull tarnish the name of the bulldog, whom
>>it vaguely resembles?  huskies and hybrids
>>for the most part don't look anything alike.
>
>Of course it is silly.  But it is reality.  I know that, you know that, the
>majority of the people reading the net know that.  Again, the general public
>does not understand this.  One of the articles within the last year in the
>AKC Gazzete mention that WH are starting to impact Mals in a couple of
>different areas in the country.  THe Malamute Quarterley has had similar
>stories.  This is reality.

and the only way to fight it is to educate 
people rather than discouraging them from
having hybrids.

>I think we can agree to disagree in several areas.  My goal here was to simply
>put in my 0.02 on why I think people should shy away from WH, as a matter
>of personal choice, not law.  

my goal is to educate people on the realities and
myths of hybrids in all forms, having owned
one myself for ten years.  i also try to temper 
those posts attempting to encourage the public to
"shy away" from hybrids with facts and with
common sense in an effort to ensure that people
don't get the wrong impression of why some
people are unsuited to own a hybrid.  there aren't
a lot of people out there who would work well
with hybrids, but that's mostly due to the fact
that there aren't a whole lot of people out there
who possess the patience, the understanding, the
background knowledge, and above all the sense
of responsibility to maintain a happy hybrid.

				stormwind

				hell's amazon
Newsgroups: alt.wolves