From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: words
Date: 25 Aug 92 11:22:42 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <2A95210B.20682@orion.oac.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <krikket.6371@meltdown.chi.il.us> krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D.
>'krikket' Krick) writes:
>>In article <2A8EEB08.15973@orion.oac.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu
>>(Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>>Another further thing we need to do, as well, is to learn to
>>>differentiate when a) someone is complaining about a general societal
>>>injustice, and b) when we are personally being accused of something.
>>>There seems to be a lot of this going around, where someone (gee, like
>>>who?) will post drawing attention to a general injustice, and someone
>>>ELSE will automatically act as if they stand accused.  They will then
>>>proceed to explain why they do nothing of the sort.  Quite frankly, they
>>>may not (but I still wonder why they get so defensive if so), but that
>>>doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  I have a feeling that if you pinned
>>>down most men/hets/white people and asked them, "Do you oppress people?"
>>>they would say, "Of course not."  By extension, the oppression would not
>>>then exist -- but it does.
>>
>>Nice logic, but with a flaw...  Understanding.  
>
>Krikket, are you just reading every post I make on this subject and
>straining to find something to complain about it?  The flaw is that
>*U*N*D*E*R*S*T*A*N*D*I*N*G* is so infrequently given when people talk
>about a societal injustice. 

Janis, I am sorry to dissapoint you, but when I read the messages, I often
don't take not of who the author is.  Sometimes I find myself wanting to
respond to a post, without taking note of who wrote it...  In this case, we
just have differing opnions.

And don't feel bad, if Bran'arthur (sp?) ever decides to pick up the argument
regarding the taxonomy of magic, THEN be prepared to watch sparks fly... 
(LARGE smiley face!)

On your other point, there is a difference between talking about a social
injustice and bitching about the way things are.  One is pleasent, and one is
offensive.  IMHO, of course.

>>Yes, there is discrimination in
>>America, and being one of those M/H/W people, I would respond "No, but it
does
>>occur, and although I try to stop it when it does."  Unfortunately many
people
>>see the blanket statements made about society to include all members of the
>>mentioned group(s).  
>
>Once again, I was not saying YOU didn't, and I was not saying that no
>M/H/W would respond that way.  I was saying that MOST didn't.  

<my responce deleted for bandwidth>

>In other words, I am not allowed to express anger.  In other words, you
>aren't prepared to let someone blow off steam and wait until they calm
>down.  Did you know that the inability to express anger is a MAJOR
>indicator of repressed childhood abuse? 

Yes, you are permitted to express anger.  So am I.  In this case you are
expressing ander at the way things are, and I'm expressing anger at the
offensive (IMHO) fashion you are doing it...

>>Once again, understanding comes into play here.  The disqualifier you put on
>>the above paragraph ([ONLY] gay/les/bi readers will...) only helps ailenate
>>people.  
>
>How?  All I was saying is that this grand realization that I had about
>being supportive of gay/les/bi rights not meaning I was any more used to
>seeing them than anyone else would have been realized a long time ago by
>ANY gay/les/bi person.  All I was saying is that this grandrealization
>that I thought was earth-shaking was probably quite pedestrian to the
>people who have to deal with it all the time. 

Okay, so the comment was more based on differences in style than anything
else...  But I'm still gonna stick to what I said, that when it is stated that
only a select few will understand a statement, you will alienate some people...

>>What about those of us, who are M/H/W's and are active in the local
>>gay community?  General statements and comments are fine, but be careful with
>>them!
>
>If you know they are general, can't you look past them?  I did not say
>that there were NO M/H/W people out there capable of understanding this.
>I said only that my revelation was probably quite ordinary to gay/les/bi
>people who deal with it all day long. 

See above, now I'd be repeating myself... :)

>>Yes,
>>the person comes out of the closet, and it may help the big picture, but at
>>what cost?  The loss of job, friends, family...  No thanks.  This is why I
>>selectively stay IN the broom closet.  I don't need to be fired from another
>>job, or have another female companion forcibly seperated from me...
>
>Understood.  I was unaware that there was actually a group that did this
>stuff.  I don't think I'm really in a position to pass judgement on ACT
>UP (and someone posting saying "I'm a member and who told you you knew
>what you were talking about?" has good grounds for flaming me), but this
>decision seems as personal as abortion.  And, like abortion, it is a
>decision that must be made by the individual -- they know their lives
>best, and can make the best decision for themselves.  It's the same with
>the broom closet.  Anyone who is there is there for REASONS that seem
>valid to them.  These reasons should be respected.

I don't particularly feel like judging people myself...  So I'm going to put a
qualifier on what I said.  It is my UNDERSTANDING that ACT UP is the group that
has been ousting people in the Gay Community, at least in the Chicagoland area.
 If I am thinking of the wrong group, I beg the collective forgiveness of ACT
UP in advance.  Unfortunately, there IS a group doing this...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
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  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.