From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 07:59:39 GMT

makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.084932.5496@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
># In article 26043@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
># >In article <1992Sep2.045114.10284@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
> 
># ># Lehi had no love of the Germans.  They believed that the Nazis would
># ># win the war and that the Nazi flavour of anti-semitism was going to
># ># be the trend for a long time.  More interestingly, they believed
># ># that anti-semitism could not be fought because it was JUSTIFIED; 
># ># it was reasonable for non-Jews to hate Jews because after all the
># ># Jews were the Chosen People and therefore superior.

># >	I have a lot of problems with this, and Brendan I believe you owe
># >lots of peaople an apology for that insulting remark.  I consider the
># >Jews (me included) to be the chosen people.  I do NOT consider myself
># >(or any other Jew) superior.  Even if I did, that might make
># >anti-semitism a predictable response (not that it would make it, just
># >that it might), but not a JUSTIFIED response.

># >	Just to let you know, it was this one paragraph that caused me to
># >respond.  The use of 'JUSTIFIED' is disgusting to say the least.
> 
># I expected that you wouldn't like it.  However, you are asking me to
># apologise for the beliefs of Stern, which is rather bizarre.  What
># I wrote is properly parsed "they [Lehi] believed ... it was justified".
># I never said that I believe it was justified, nor do I believe that.
> 
># What I have read about the beliefs of Stern and his buddies are that
># they belonged to the (hopefully small) subset of Jewish thinkers which
># regarded the doctrine of Chosenness as a doctrine of superiority.
># I think it fits their policies and behaviour quite well, but I don't
># have access to the original source materials that could confirm it.
># My most recent reading on the subject was the two books by Lenni
># Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators and The Iron Wall, but
># I've read less pointed texts also.

>	Quite frankly, if this is in fact not what they believed, I
>consider this reply of yours to also be disgusting.  And considering
>that you post this without the materials handy, I find also
>disgusting.

David, You are certainly in a highly disgustable state today.
I have The Iron Wall with me.  I am making Lehi's letter to the
Nazis into MEQ#13.  Sorry I can't dedicate it to you, though;
I already decided to give that honour to Jonathon.

>	Now, even if your materials do confirm this, it is possible that
>there are inadvertant mistranslations, or considering the way some
>felt (and still do feel) about LEHI, a planned mistranslation.

Both are possible.  An unavoidable hazard in amateur historical
research is that one is at the mercy of professionals who misrepresent 
obscure source material.  I try to minimise the effect by reading 
multiple opinions, but that is an imperfect solution.

>	Now, if in fact that is how those members of LEHI actually felt, I
>find their (and others who agree) beilifs disgusting.  However, unless

I'm glad.

>you are sure that is what they actually believed (and there is almost
>no way source material in English can confirm this), your behavior
>here is disgusting even if by chance (it would have to be chance
>unless you know hebrew or read something written by the individuals in
>question in a language you understand) you are correct. 

As explained above, I have to be content with reporting the views 
of professional historians who have examined the sources (and 
interviewed the people) themselves.  If you stop people doing
that, and also stop people making up opinions from thin air,
there will be hardly anything left on tpm at all.  I named one
of those historians above.  I could name a few more given time.
Brenner is not alone in his assessment of Stern.

>	Also, this response of yours does not even go into how
>anti-semitism is justified even if the "superiority" business is
>correct.

Well, after flaming me for reporting the words of someone else,
now you want me to analyse them for you.  Ok.  I guess the idea
is that people tend to hate people superior to themselves.
Maybe it's true in some statistical sense, I don't know.
I remember once reading an opinion that this idea helps explain
some of the ill-treatment Christians have meted out to Jews 
over the ages (since the doctrine that the Jews are specifically 
Chosen is a strong theme in Christian thinking also).  I don't
really have an opinion on whether these assessments are correct,
and I don't have enough time to make one.

>	It would seem as though you have been duped by David Palmer.  I

Who?

>suggest you reconsider and apologize.

No way.  If you don't like the opinions I quote, quote some yourself.

>David Makowsky

Brendan.
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