From: whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Please Prove it to me!
Date: 14 Aug 92 07:30:36 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <Aug.13.03.47.52.1992.13207@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>, fusco@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Andrew Fusco) writes:
> The historical records do show, I believe, that a man named Jesus did live,
> and attracted a large following of believers. I'm pretty sure that acconts
> of this are in local histories, but also in Roman records.

I think you will find, on closer examination, that there is very
little (perhaps, no) extant literature outside the Bible which claims
to be any form of historic record backing your claim.  The earliest
one I know of is Josephus--and that is suspect of being merely the
earliest attempt to create external support.  The whole claim of
Christianity rests upon a single, collected work that has been in the
hands of believers since the inception of the religion.  *That* is why
some of us call for independent works (though I, for one, don't expect
them to be forthcoming).

If I'm wrong in my expectations, please cite the Roman records and
local histories to which you allude.

	--Hal
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare

[You are right.  Here's the FAQ]

What is known about Christ from non-Christian sources?

The answer is, "not much".  However I think there are enough
references to be sure that he really existed, was a Jewish teacher,
was crucified, and had disciples following him.  There's nominally
some evidence for the miraculous darkness at his crucifixion reported
in the Gospels, but since the report comes through a Christian, it is
not qualified as independent.

I have taken all but the first set of quotations from McDowell.  He is
a somewhat controversial writer, as he represents the fundamentalist
end of Christianity.  However his book is a convenient list of
quotations that are commonly cited.  I've included most of the list,
to give you a feel for what are typically cited.  

The problem with these quotations is that it's hard to know which ones
actually represent independent knowledge, and which simply summarize
Christian claims. Tacitus and Lucian are non-Christians who accept
certain basic facts about Jesus.  However this doesn't necessarily
mean they actually checked Roman records from Palestine.  Romans might
quite reasonably accept Christians' claims that Jesus was crucified,
since there would be no plausible motive for inventing that.  I would
guess that the Jewish sources are more likely to be based on real
historical knowledge, simply because the traditions are from a group
that was around in Palestine at the time.  At any rate, we can tell
what Jews and Romans accepted as fact some decades after the events,
but we can't really tell how carefully they had investigated.

Josephus (a Jewish historian) in Jewish Antiquities, finished ca.
93-94.  Refers briefly to the trial of James, "the brother of Jesus
who is called Messiah".  There is another and longer reference to
Jesus in this document, containing a brief description of Jesus, as "a
doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people", crucified by Pilate,
and source of Christianity.  However because it has an explicit
acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and of his resurrection, almost all
scholars believe that this passage is a Christian interpolation.
There are some scholars who believe that the core of it is original,
and Christians added only the parts acknowledging Jesus as Messiah and
the reality of resurrection.  There is virtually no doubt about the
passage referring to James.  (source: John Meier, Bible Review, June
1991)

Tacitus (a Roman historian), in 112, refers briefly to Nero's
persecution of Christians.  "Christus, the founder of the name, was
put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of
Tiberius; but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke
out again..."  Annals XV, 44, from McDowell, Evidence that Demands a
Verdict.

Lucian of Samosata, a Roman satirist of the 2nd Cent., alluded to
Christ as "... the man who was crucified in Palestine because he
introduced this new cult into the world. ... Furthermore, their first
lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another
after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods
and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under has
laws."  The Passing Peregrius, from McDowell, op cit.

Suetonius, a Roman historian, 120 "As the Jews were making constant
disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from
Rome."  Life of Claudius, from McDowell, op cit.

Pliny the Younger wrote a letter in 112 describing Christians and
asking the Emperor what to do about them.  However references to
Christ are clearly in the context of their belief about him, so this
does not constitute any independent confirmation.

Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian.  McDowell says that he mentioned
Christ in 52 AD.  However his works are no longer extant, so we have
only citations of it by others.  I haven't seen any quotations of his
mentions of Christ.  The following does, however, support the Gospel
accounts of Jesus' crucifixion.  Julius Africanus, a Christian writing
about 221, says, talking about the darkness that fell when Christ was
crucified, "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away
this darkness as an eclipse of the sun -- unreasonably, as it seems to
me."  (It is unreasonable because the crucifixion was at Passover,
which is based on the lunar calendar and requires a full moon.  When
there's a full moon, the moon is at the opposite side of the earth
from where it has to be for an eclipse.)  This has been cited by
several Christian apologists as independent evidence.  However it's
available only through quotations by a Christian writer, so I would be
reluctant to claim it as completely independent.  Julius Africanus
seems (from other accounts) to have been less credulous than many of
his time, and to be willing to debunk at least some unjustified
Christian claims.  But he is still a Christian source.

Phelgon, another first-cent. historian, is also quoted by Africanus as
saying "during the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun
occurred during the full moon."  Phelgon's comment (presumably the
same one) is also referred to by Philopon.  from McDowell, op cit.

Mara Bar-Serapion, in a letter to his son sometime after 73 AD, refers
to the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and Christ: "What advantage did
the Jews gain from executing their wise King?  It was just after that
that their kingdom was abolished. ...  Nor did the wise King die for
good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given" from F.F. Bruce,
"The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable", quoted in McDowell,
op cit.

[The following is taken nearly verbatim from McDowell.  I do not know
enough about the Jewish documents cited to be able to comment, but the
comments from Klausner add sufficient credibility that I'm willing to
include them.  I'd welcome comments from knowledgable Jewish readers.]
The Talmud refers to Jesus several places, typically as "Ben Pandera",
where Pandera is sometimes taken to be the name of a Roman soldier who
was Jesus' illegitimate father.  It may also be a play on words, since
the Greek word for virgin is "parthenos".  In the Baraila: "On the eve
of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before
him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going forth to be
stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray
Israel.  Let everyone knowing aught in his defence come and plead for
him.  But they found naught in his defence and hanged him on the eve
of Passover."  (Babylonia Sanhedrin 43a).  Yeb. IV 3; 49a: "R. Shimeon
ben Azzai said [concerning Jesus]: 'I found a genealogical roll in
Jerusalem wherein was recorded, Such-an-one is a bastard of an
adulteress'".  Klausner (a modern Jewish scholar) adds: "Current
editions of the Mishnah add: 'To support the words of R.  Yehoshua'
(who in the same Mishnah, says: What is a bastard?  Everyone whose
parents are liable to death by the Beth Din).  That Jesus is here
referred to seems to be beyond doubt. ..."  An early Baraita, in which
R. Eliezer is the central figure, speaks of Jesus by name.  The
brackets are within the quote.  Eliezer speaking: "He answered, Akiba,
you have reminded me!  Once I was walking along the upper market
(Tosefta reads 'street') of Sepphoris and found one [of the disciples
of Jesus of Nazareth] and Jacob of Kefar Sekanya (Tosefta reads
'Sakkanin') was his name.  He said to me, It is written in your Law,
'Thou shalt not bring the hire of a harlot, etc.'  What was to be done
with it -- a latrine for the High Priest?  But I answered nothing.  He
said to me, so [Jesus of Nazareth] taught me (Tosefta reads, 'Yeshu
ben Pantere'): 'For of the hire of a harlot hath she gathered them,
and unto the hire of a harlot shall they return'; from the place of
filth they come, and until the place of filth they shall go.  And the
saying pleased me, and because of this I was arrested for Minuth.  And
I transgressed against what is written in the Law; 'Keep thy way far
from here' -- that is Minuth; 'and come not nigh the door of her
house' -- that is the civil government".  The above brackets are found
in Dikduke Sof'rim to Abada Zara (Munich Manuscript, ed Rabinovitz).
Klausner comments "There can be no doubt that the words, 'one of the
disciples of Jesus of Nazareth,' and 'thus Jesus of Nazareth taught
me,' are, in the present passage both early in date and fundamental in
their bearing on the story; and their primitive character cannot be
disputed on the grounds of the slight variations in the parallel
passages; their variants ('Yeshu ben Pantere' or 'Yeshu ben Pandera,'
instead of 'Yeshu of Nazareth') are merely due to the fact that, from
an early date, the name 'Pantere,' or 'Pandera,' become widely current
among the Jews as the name of the reputed father of Jesus."  The
quotes are from Klausner, "Jesus of Nazareth".