From: tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil (Tim Miller)
Subject: Re: The Crucifixion Prophecy
Organization: AL/HRTI, Brooks AFB
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:36:37 GMT

On 11 Dec 92 15:57:44 GMT, ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) said:

 > A number of you have already asked me about the so called Crucifixion
 > prophecy.  It is Psalm 22.

 > The key line is : THEY HAVE PIERCED MY HANDS AND FEET

	From: _Tanakh: A New Translation of the Holy Scriptures
According to the Traditional Hebrew Text_, The Jewish Publication
Society, New York (5746/1985)

	(No, I don't like the translation, but I was given this and I
have yet to get enough money for a better edition)

	Psalms, 22:17
	"...Dogs surround me; / a pack of evil ones closes in on me, /
like lions [they maul] my hands and feet."

	With a reference to Isaiah 38:13:
	"...Then it was as though a lion / Were breaking all my bones; /
I cried out until morning / (Only from daybreak to nightfall / Was I
kept whole.)"

	With a notation that the last 2 lines have uncertain meaning in
Hebrew. 

	Psalms 22:17 has a further reference, "With Rashi."  I'm afraid
I don't have the reference, anyone care to supply it?

 > When the first Christian Jews pointed this out in the first Century
 > the sages said NO! It says LIKE A LION, MY HANDS AND FEET
 > that is to say they changed the pointing.  

	Since the sages were working with original source material and
"Christian Jews" -- actually Christian deceivers -- were working with
admittedly inadequate translations, I'm inclined to conclude that the
sages were correct.

 >						But 300 years beforehand
 > the Tenach was translated into Greek with this line intact - the point being
 > that scripture was oral at that time as well as written so that no one can
 > argue about it.

	Then why bring it up?

 > Look at the other lines: ALL MY BONES ARE OUT OF JOINT
 > This describes a man hung from a cross.

	To quote context:  Psalms 22:12-16

	"Do not be far from me,
	for trouble is near,
	and there is none to help.
	Many bulls surround me,
	mighty ones of Bashran encircle me.
	They open their mouths at me
	like tearing, roaring lions.
	My life ebbs away:  (Lit. "I am poured out like water")
	all my bones are disjointed;
	my heart is like wax,
	melting within me;
	my vigor dries up like a shard;
	my tongue cleaves to my palate;
	You commit me to the dust of death."

	Sounds more like a prayer for strength than a description of a
crucifixion to me.

 > I CAN COUNT ALL MY BONES
 > This describes a skeleton

	Yes.  Your point?

	Psalm 22 reads as a prayer for strength and aid to one trouble,
not a telling of a crucifixion.  22:20: "But You, O L-rd, be not far
off; / my strength, hasten to my aid."  22:21: "Save my life from the
sword, / my precious life from the clutches of a dog."

 > Many other lines correspond exactly to the New Testament account such
 > as the opening cry and the parting of garments.

	There's a good reason for this:  The "New Testament" account was
written between 70-100 years *after the supposed event*, and
deliberately modeled after selected verses in Kethuvim and Nevi'im to
provide legitimacy.  It's called "retconning;" ask a trekkie or a comic
book afficionado what that means.

 > I trust that all is clearer now.

	Hardly.

	I have some questions: Do you really think that we haven't seen
this before?  That we haven't been accosted by this nonsense time and
time again?  Do you truly believe that we're going to sit back after
reading your posts and and say, "Oh.  Well, I guess everything I believe
and hold dear is just plain wrong; it's time for me to go and reject
everything I've been taught and be something I revile."  Do you really
think you've got your finger on the pulse of HaShem?  Get a clue, get a
grip, get out of my face.

	I'm sorry I'm getting all worked up, but I really really really
dislike hearing this type of nonsense whatever it's source.  The
twisting of scripture used to justify this stuff makes me ill.  One of
the things I truly love about Judaism is the recognition of the
righteous gentile.  No Christian tradition in my experience has ever
made such an allowance in their scheme of the universe.  "Be one of us or
be damned" is the general tenent.

	I only wish he was in the U.S. military; I'd have his butt in
Social Actions quicker than he can say "Jesus Christ."  Preaching is
verboten in a *very* big way; I know TI's busted and given Letters of
Reprimand (a *nice* big black mark on the record-- enough to be denied
re-enlistment) for making even an *implication* that someone should
become a "good Christian" like them.

-- Cerebus <tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil>
"Since I've got it open, I'm going to read something soothing from
 Psalms to calm myself down now."