From: hz225wu@unidui.uni-duisburg.de (Micaela Pantke)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Types of Magic
Date: 7 Jan 1993 10:02:19 +0100
Organization: University of Duisburg
Reply-To: hz225wu@unidui.UUCP (Micaela "Stayka" Pantke)
NNTP-Posting-Host: unidui.uni-duisburg.de
Keywords: Measurability of PSI energies?

Hi there - Stayka is here!

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
BA> 
BA> In my experience, the energies used in Vitalism and Mentalism are
BA> themselves different.  What's being discussed here is assuming that they
BA> are merely from different sources.  Every person has both Mentalist and
BA> Vitalism energies.  I am as certain about this as I am because I use
BA> both.  Years ago, another M/V person and I distinguished them as craft
BA> versus psi (craft=Vitalism; psi=Mentalism).  We noted that when we
BA> worked with psi, we needed calories, as is described in the Darkover
BA> books.  However, when we had been doing craft, we needed protein and
BA> Vitamin C. 

That is very interesting, for when our circle worked together we really
did need calories, too. (A need of Vitamin C or protein never occurred to
us). It seems that in your categories we really only did work on the 
metalist ways. BTW, we discovered that we burnt alcohol in an amazing rate
when we were PSI-active. One time a friend of mine an I were rather drunk
(even more...), and of a queer idea we tried a circle. Within ten minutes
we didn't feel any effects of the alcohol anymore. It was amazing. (But I
wouldn't recommend PSI-works to get your blood alcohol level down - we 
never had a medical examination concerning that fact - we only FELT sober!) 

BA> Also, the two *work* very differently.  Much has been written about
BA> Mentalist energies, with all the books on auras, etc.  However, in
BA> Western Culture, very little has been written about Vitalist energies. 

By the way, I must admit that our circle hasn't read very much about
those energies at all, and even now I must admit that most of my ideas
don't come from any books but from experience and imagination. 

But I find your explanations most interesting, and I will consider to
put several of your ideas into my view of the world, because there are
still lots of things which I haven't devoted enough consideration to yet. 

Given your definitions, I'm rather fascinated that our circled worked 
together so well, as we have distinct differences in our backgrounds. I
for example seem to be mostly Mentalist, while Cajhain is mostly Vitalist.
Only Kira is able to work good on both areas. Maybe is was some kind of 
a catalyst between Cajhain and myself?! 

drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
D> What do you mean by magic?

*I* wrote (SQ is an old abbreviation for me and still valid...):
SQ> I want to answer that question my way -- IN MY OPINION magic(k) is
SQ> something that science can't explain rationally AT THE MOMENT, and
SQ> something that moves something in the senses of the magic(k) worker and
SQ> co-workers, or in the senses of others sensitive to those phenomenons. 

D> OK, I can partially agree.

BA> I, however, disagree completely with this.  It is my experience that 
BA> all magic occurs via a human consciousness.  Science cannot understand 
BA> human consciousness, since it is not well behaved.  People can claim 
BA> that they are doing science, while doing games with statistics, but 
BA> the medium of magic (human beings) are inherently inappropriate for 
BA> the scientific method. Therefore, science will never be able to 
BA> rationally explain magic because it is non-rational (not the same as 
BA> irrational!). 
BA> 
BA> Bran's definition of magic: a range of processes of connecting with 
BA> various subtle aspects of reality, and then, sometimes, influencing 
BA> them with our intent.

Hm, and *I* am not so certain that science won't get behind the secrets
of magic(k) SOMEDAY.  Lately I saw something very interesting when I
visited a psychologist I know.  He started to examine subconscious
relationships between persons and had very interesting data which
explicitely showed that there HAVE to be means of communication beyond
the normal ones.  For example there were measurable correlations between
the body temperature (!) of two persons who communicated otherwise only
verbally!  Those results aren't official yet, but when I saw it I asked
him how he would explain those results.  Of course he denied every
possibility of a mental interaction, but he couldn't tell me how it
could work, either. 

BTW, I think your definition of magic is as valid as mine. (I'm sure 
there are even more definitions I could agree upon...) Your definition 
only excludes the possibility of scientific measurability as stated in 
your 'prelude', which isn't okay with me. 

cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (Steve Cranmer) writes:
SC>
SC> I wonder if one can draw parallels to the Nefesh and Ruach in Kaballah.
SC> One's Nefesh "energy" seems like the raw, sanguine, vital force, and
SC> one's Ruach "energy" seems like the more intellectual mental force.

Could you please elaborate a little bit more on the kaballistic meanings?
I'm not very familiar with the Kaballah  and would appreciate a bit more
information on the subject. Thanx!

acsrdl@UMASSD.EDU (Ian David James Toal) writes:
ID> 
ID> Weather-working is a Naturalist thing, I assume (even though I remember
ID> something about "plants and animals" as its basic description).  Do you
ID> (Br'anArthur) feel that it uses Mentalist or Vitalist energies?  I've
ID> [pull/flow]ed winds and poked holes in clouds, and that felt like I was
ID> using the sort of body-brightness energy I identify as ki, the
ID> difference being that I was much more aware of the earth as an anchor. 
ID> Or do you feel there's some kind of Naturalist energy that's innately
ID> distinct? 

Well, that IS an interesting question. As I mentioned in a posting before 
our circle seems to have influence on the weather, because EVERYTIME we
looked in the sky after our workings there WAS a clear sky just above the
place we were working... Maybe it was a combination of Vitalist and 
Mentalist energies, as we had both in our circle?!

ID> The other level of working I can't categorize is what I've tentatively
ID> labeled Causality.  I believe that I've been able to affect the course
ID> of events in my life, without specifically trying to influence people 
ID> or things.  It's basically "I want *this* to happen, and so I'm going 
ID> to tilt these probabilities like *so*...." This doesn't feel like an
ID> exercise in psi (but what do I know from psi?) but more like
ID> weather-working: things/events "flow" together -- but the energy isn't
ID> ki at all.  Writing this, I considered that Causality might simply be 
ID> a meta-category, effected through the four Realms in ways I'm not
ID> consciously aware of...  but that doesn't feel entirely right. 

Aye, that sounds very much like my philosophy/belief: Everyone can
influence hir surroundings/the universe itself with hir imagination
resp.  hir dreams.  I wouldn't want to put this talent in a category,
for I think that is something else, which is a birthright of everyone,
no matter to what magical category/realm s/he belongs. (Well, like
everything I tell it is my OPINION, take it or leave it, just to your 
pleasing.)

My, this letter got longer than expected! - I hope, you think it was 
worth it...  

Walk in the light!
                        Stayka deyAvemta

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: hz225wu@unidui.uni-duisburg.de  |  Now Stayka is online!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snail Mail:              | 
Micaela "Stayka" Pantke  |   Hopefully looking forward to further 
Westhoffstrasse 111      |   interesting discussions without useless
W-4200 Oberhausen 11     |   flames!
Germany                  | 
------------------------------------------------------------------------