HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Masons and Mormons
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:54:59 EDT
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

There's also good evidence that Josseph Smith Jr, the prophet of Mormonism,
had practiced as a folk magician earlier in his career, like his father be-
fore him (Joseph Smith Sr).  See D. Michael Quinn, _Early Mormonism and the
Magic World View_, Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1987.  Quinn is (was?)
a Mormon teaching at Brigham Young Univ. when he published this, and it got
him fired (or maybe asked to resign), so he now lives elsewhere; I've heard
it also got him in very hot water with the Mormon Church as a whole, not
just his university.  I've read it and it seems *very* good.  -- Robert
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.individualism,talk.politics.guns
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Libertarians, guns, etc. 
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:53:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.010444.11220@news.stolaf.edu> adams@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Brynach ap Adda) writes:
>But I'm not going let my desire ... possess weapons designed to kill people

I used to study weapon design.  I wonder what weapons are being discussed
here.  (Hint - guns don't qualify.)

>notice a trend of omission in the thread. The reason I support gun control
>is not to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, or make life easier for
>the cops (not that I wish them any worse than they're getting). I'm worried
>about your average every-day racist homophobic "Christian" Amerikan 
>citizen, who feels that I, a long-haired bearded bisexual Pagan man, am
>inherently a threat to safety and decency. People like me often have a
>little pre-emptive "home defense" visited upon them just for being in the
>wrong place and not hiding who they are. Like others here, I resent being
>forced to arm myself, just because those who would hurt me are allowed
>all the weapons they need to make sure I'm afraid of them.

Anyone who thinks that govt will disarm people who want to kill
"freaks" is wrong.  Govt ARMS these people; it always will.  Given
that, "freaks" can only decide whether or not they're willing to die
quietly.

Gun control can only disarm sheep; it doesn't affect wolves.
Moreover, it can't make women safe from men who are willing to attack
them (nature makes sure of that) and it can't protect "freaks".  It
won't disarm Nazis or gay-bashers; the govt ARMS those folks.

Gun control in the US has always been "menacing minority" control.
There's nothing that scares white amerika more than a nigger with a
gun.  The reconstruction era civil rights movement died because it was
successfully disarmed by the first "saturday night special" laws.
(The term comes from a "those guns aren'g good for anything except
niggertown on saturday night" slogan used to promote those laws.  The
freed slaves couldn't afford expensive guns to defend themselves
against klan attacks.  Those laws successfully eliminated the "crime"
of self-defense.)  The 1950s civil rights movement succeeded because
it did have the means to defend itself.  (The 60s movement wouldn't
have happened if the 50s movement hadn't survived the violent
attacks.)  See "Negroes With Guns" for more information.

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
From: ljt3@CS1.CC.Lehigh.EDU (Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Date: 9 Sep 92 05:49:21 GMT
	<2AAD4490.10608@news.service.uci.edu>
Organization: Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA

>In article <eq0RqB5w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
>[...]
>[1: can't get to the gun]
>[2: kids can get to the gun]

There's another solution:  Get a carry permit (if you need one) and 
carry it with you at all times.  You can get it when you need it, and the
kids can't get to it without your permission and presence. (not advocating, 
it's just a possibility)

>>"An armed society is a polite society."

>Nope.  An armed society is one where people are blown away constantly --

Er... Janis, if you want, I can go over to rec.guns or t.p.g and get the
stats to prove you wrong for the USA (the states that allow non-permit
open carry have LESS incidence of violent crime with guns than those 
that require permits).  If everyone has guns, people are going to expect
it, and aren't going to do stupid things as often.

Also, there are other countries where owning weapons are mandatory, and
they have the lowest incidences of violent crime in the world.  The murder
problem in the US is _NOT_ because people have guns.  Most of the guns used
in violent crime are illegally obtained anyway (I did say _most_)

>This little epigram smacks of too many old Clint Eastwood movies.  If I
>can imagine Dirty Harry saying it, I'm not going to subscribe to the
>sentiment. 

Unfortunately for you, it's true.

>Blessings,
>Janis 

Please, this has gone far away from alt.pagan.  Followups to E-mail please,
if it all.

Thanks.
--
  Lewis Tanzos - ljt3@cs1.cc.lehigh.edu - LJT3@PL122.eecs.lehigh.edu
   "Under heaven, all can see beauty only because there is ugliness.
       All can know good as good only because there is evil."
From: morgan@brewich.hou.tx.us (Morgan ap Rhys)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Learning in North Carolina
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 09:11:19 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:

> (Morgan ap Rhys) writes:
> >  
> > Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft (Raymond Buckland, good practical 
> > approaches to magic.  Large, workbook sized book, with blue cover"
> 
> I'd be careful with this book.  Some of the info in the herbal section was
> blatantly wrong.  If memory serves me correctly, his remedy for menstrual
> ills was an abortifact, and not a safe one either.  If a woman is going
> to take one of those things, she'd want to know that's what she's doing.
> While there was a encyclopedic range of stuff covered, I didn't trust any
> of the information after I found that one potentially dangerous goof.
> The list of his other book titles didn't fill me with confidence either --
> something like Chant-o-matics and something else on Gypsy love charms.
 
Hmmm... thanks for the warning.. I had not realized that as I am not as 
good a student of herbalism as I'd like...
 
Morgan


------------------
morgan@brewich.hou.tx.us (Morgan ap Rhys)
(Alternate) morgan%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
     "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often!
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Variations of Sword in Stone (re: Celtic)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 13:26:21 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:

> In article <1992Sep9.103051.8791@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> 
> mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
> >	This stone phallus was one of the five treasures brought over by
> >the Tuatha De Danaan (no Grendle, not the Anglo Saxon pantheon gggrrrr.).
> >The others were a sword (the sword of Lugh I think, and no doubt also
> >Excalibur), a spear, a cauldron (the grail) and a shield. The fifth is not
> >always tallied with these, but it does round out the numbers nicely.
> 
> Stone phallus, there is a name for these but I can't remember, is basic
> to almost all if not all cultures. Let's face it, men have penises and
I believe the word you are looking for is Lingum. It is a hindu word for 
an oblong stone that mystically represents the divine penis. It usually 
sits in the middle of a stone ring, or basin, which is called a yoni and 
is the female counterpart.

--------------------
Donal, SysAdmin of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: How many ______ does it take to change a light bulb?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 6 Sep 92 07:47:32 GMT

In article <003mqB1w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
>How many Gardnerians does it take to change a light bulb?
>   I can't tell you. It is a deep dark secret!
>   
>How many Family Traditionalists does it take to change a light bulb?
>   None. If oil lamps were good enough for Grandma they are good enough for us!
>   
>got any more? This is the thread for 'em!
>:) Maybe this should be crossposted to to rec.humor...

How many Taoists does it take to change a light bulb?

The light bulb that can be changed is not the true light bulb.

Blessings,
Janis
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Did Jesus Exist (was Re: "Jesus did not claim....")
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:54:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>...stuff deleted... And, after the "fact" doesn't mean much, since
>there is no real proof that Jesus existed, and too much inference by way
>of other myths that the idea of a savior born of no earthly father and a
>virgin, the son of the father and also the father, who dies a
>sacrificial death and is reborn three days later, is not unique.  
> 

I have to admit to being one who thinks Jesus did exist, albeit not as the
gospels portrayed him.  Someone existed, someone did something to have some
sort of effect on society.  I have a hard time believing that so many people
conspired to create this "Jesus character", especially in that day and age.
If it had been created over a period of several generations, maybe.  In that
case something that had gotten blown out of proportion from the retelling....
*maybe*.  The man we call Jesus was probably an occultic master by today's
standards.  Such a man would have a very strong effect on the people around
him.  That people layer on tales and make the image conform to the know mythus
is not unheard of.

To say "there is no proof therefore..." is to ignore other factors.  Once again
truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: A little on self defense...
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:17:09 GMT

>My advice. Take a martial art. Some (esp. aikido and t'ai chi) focus
>heavily on spiritual development of a sort that would probably be of
>interest to the pagan community. Some are purely practical (kempo, muay
>thai, wing chun, boxing). All give you a better chance of taking down an
>attacker without killing him, in my view a preferable solution both in
>terms of the law and in terms of harmony.

Nope.

Think about the "problem".  You've got an attacker, most likely
someone who's stronger and faster and who may be well trained.

There are only TWO ways of stopping the attack.  You can convince him
to stop the attack or you can make it impossible for him to attack.

Guns are much better "convincers" than any martial art or knife.  The
convincing doesn't place him at any risk, which isn't true of martial
arts or knives.

To stop the attack without the attacker's cooperation requires that
you damage him.  The required damage is significant and places him at
a serious risk of death, no matter how it is inflicted.  In fact, the
risk doesn't depend on how it is inflicted.

Moreover, inflicting that damage with martial arts or knives places
the self-defender at significant risk.  Training can trump fu or
knives, but it can't trump guns.

-andy

--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Variations of Sword in Stone (re: Celtic)
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:37:18 GMT

me writes:
<<Stone phallus, there is a name for these but I can't remember, is basic
<<to almost all if not all cultures. Let's face it, men have penises and

donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
<I believe the word you are looking for is Lingum. It is a hindu word for 
<an oblong stone that mystically represents the divine penis. It usually 
<sits in the middle of a stone ring, or basin, which is called a yoni and 
<is the female counterpart.

Well, not exactly. Lingum/Yoni are just the Sanskrit words for
Penis/Vagina, but it does sound more official when you use them, to bad
we associate Penis/Vagina with what we call bad words, which if you
think about it is a pretty strange concept. In Sanskrit they are not
considered bad words, just what they are and what they symbolize, chakra
level 2, the level of the mutual attraction of the gonads for each
other. But in books on I/E or Indian culture you will almost always see
these things refered to as lingum/yoni, just translate that into
penis/vagina, it should not effect your perception. If it does, G, I
don't know what to say? Maybe something to work on? But my questions
remain: 1)What is the female synonym for phallus?, 2)What is the
technical term for stone phallus and stone (for lack of a better word,
vaginas/yonis)? And if I don't get an answer I shall have to make dung
hills out of the lot of you - just kidin'
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: womens mysteries?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 11 Sep 92 23:05:57 GMT

In article <yN7uqB2w165w@Eagles.uucp> hulda@Eagles.uucp (Hulda Thunarsson) writes:
>Sorry Ailsa,
>I just can't let this one go by.
>Men created womens mysteries to make a profit from women. Do your 
>homework. I'm a woman, like yourself but I have to say this, 
>statements like the one you just made make me want to cut my hair, wear 
>trousers and put a sock in the front...
>}iIt began with that old trickster Gerald Gardner and was passed on 
>through the likes of Alexander and Buckland. What people commanly refer 
>to as "feminine mysteries" or modern day "wicca" (that includes all forms 
>of wicca i.e. Dianic) is really neither an old religion nor mysteriousat 
>all. 

I think you are both right, but have the mistaken impression that you
are on opposite sides of the fence.  Believe ME, a woman, there ARE
women's mysteries and they are made BY women FOR women.  Wicca as it
exists is not interchangeable with the totality of the women's
spirituality flowering.  There were some statements made by men in the
forefront of the witchcraft rebirth that seemed to think that women were
these flowery and ethereal fairies who sat under oak trees gazing into
silver hand mirrors while the red robins sang and decorated her hair
with flowers.  Gardner, Buckland, Sandesr, Graves -- ALL of them have
been guilty of this at one time or another.

Due to this (I suppose), women just gave the whole thang the finger and
started making things specifically for themselves.  Stop by a feminist
bookstore and see what you find; a lot of it is NOT Wicca as it is known
but is instead specifically for women and made BY women, from Z Budapest
to Barbara Walker.  THIS is women's spirituality as THAT tern is
commonly used, and it IS made by women, with lots of hard work and
personal investment. 

>The fact is todays "wicca" is a new and relatively ecclectic 
>psuedo-religion based upon Golden Dawn and other forms of ceremonial 
>magick, smatterings of Celtic, Saxon and Germanic Folklore and more than 
>just a small portion of Gardners' personal beliefs and view points.

Again, what is a Neo-Pagan/Wiccan revival I think you are confusing with
women's spirituality, which while it may include some of this,
frequently goes off in another direction.  I think this is what ailsa
meant when she said WOMEN'S mysteries, or perhaps may only be a little
closer to what ailsa meant.  I should probably shut up and let her
clarify her statements by herself without my putting words in her mouth. 

>If you wish to find out about the true Lord and Lady and the 
>roots of the "old religion" I, my husband and others that we associate 
>with would be more than happy to share such information and historical 
>references with you.

Your referring to your own concept as the "true" Lord and Lady makes my
feet itch. 

Blessings,
Janis
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Marija Gimbutas (Was: Re: more Minoan stuff)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 13 Sep 92 07:34:07 GMT

In article <7LN1qB2w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes:
>leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
>
>> I have only one question for her, and I couldn't ask it at the
>> book-signing she was at in Berkeley a couple of years back, because the
>> pro-Gimbutas crowd would surely have strung me from the rafters: she
>> says that the bull's head is symbolic of the uterus.  So, pray tell,
>> just when did these peaceful agriculturalists do their vivisection?
>> 
>
>I don't understand-- why would they practice vivisection, when even the 
>simplest dissection of a woman dying in childbirth, perhaps attempting
>to deliver surgically, would make the existence and shape of the uterus 
>relatively common knowledge?
>
>Later, Bill

Even peaceful agriculturalists would have had people periodically
savaged by animals.  Even if they didn't cut people open, they could
gain familiarity with the insides of people for ONE reason or another.

Blessings,
Janis 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:01:43 GMT

donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
: 
: BTW, I also load my pistol with an alternating load of Glazer safety 
: slugs, Silver-tip hollow points, and parabellum solids. The Glazer's 
: will not go thru walls, the hollow points will destroy anything they 
: hit, and the 9mm Parabellum has more penetration than a .357 and will 
: penetrate most brands of body armor, as well as stop the engine of a 
: mack truck.

You seem to believe some of the myths about 9mm bullets. A little research
in a balistics table or handloading handbook would show you that you are
wrong on most of your statements.

1) The Glaser slug usually will not go through walls. They do penetrate
far less than most other loads. By the same token, they sometimes will
not penetrate a leather jacket.

2) Hollow points are not all that destructive in a pistol. They are
when pushed at velocities approaching 3000 fps in rifle.

3) The 9mm Parabellum has far less penetration than a 357 Magnum. Neither
will penetrate even threat level 1 body armor. 

4) Neither will reliably penetrate the engine block of a standard automobile,
much less a truck.  Even high power rifle bullets do not do so. Even when
they do, there is no guarantee that they will do much of anything to the
truck - at least immediately.

5) The one advantage of the 9mm over most 357 mag handguns is that the 9mm
semiautomatics hold more rounds than the 357 mag revolvers. That gives you
more chances to hit your target.

Please, for your own safety. Find some reliable information about the relative
stopping power of the various pistol loads.  For example, the police have     
found, through actual firefights, that none of the handguns is reliable at
stopping a criminal. You might also look up good information on penetration
testing.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.individualism
From: spaceman@mwunix.mitre.org (Fletcher Williams)
Subject: Book stores (was: Learning in North Carolina)
Keywords: books, occult, magic
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:49:14 GMT



     I don't know if they are nation-wide, but in the Washington, D.C.
area, there are two bookstores called 'Borders'. One in Rockville, MD and
they other in the Tyson's Corner area of VA. They have a great selection and the place is huge. I took my booklist in one day and found what I wanted straight 
away. 
     They seem to carry multiple titles of a wide assortment of subjects. Of course, this means that they also stock the fluffy stuff. :)

pob hwyl,
* Fletcher

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fletcher Williams -- spaceman@mitre.org
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: How many ______ does it take to change a light bulb?
Date: 7 Sep 92 13:52:42 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <Bu6JJH.Mxu@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A.
Davis-Howe) writes:
>
>All but the Gardnerian one of these, and the one which picks on me, are the 
>creations of my Sick Sense.
>
>How many Gardnerians does it take to change a lightbulb?
>I can't tell you--it's a Craft secret.
>
>...Alexandrians...
>Two, one to do it, and the High Priestess to tell him to.

The answer I heard was...
How do the Gardnerians do it?

>...Feminist Eclectic Witches...
>"We haven't reached consensus on the environmental impact of lightbulbs yet!"

Or...
THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Krikket              | krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us |USnail:3 Danada Square E.|
|a.k.a Doug Krick     | Team Star Charter Member   |       Suite 246         |
|Data # 708/665-9732  | #include<std.disclaimers>  |       Wheaton, Il 60187 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Merry meet, merry part, and merry meet again.(Who the hell is Mary anyways?)|
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: duniway@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Duniway)
Subject: Re: men's spirituality (was Re: New Pagans and Reading)
Keywords: do it thineself
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:58:01 GMT

In article <iJBsqB3w165w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>
>if men want mysteries, if men want spirituality, if men want gods and male
>symbolism and male initiations, for christ sake CREATE THEM!!!!!!!  women
>created the dianic movement because it was what they wanted, what they needed,
>something they could love.  if you want a dionysiac movement or whatever, get
>to work.
>                                                -ailsa

Once more ailsa seems to have demonstrated a knack for hitting that old nail 
squarely on the head.  One of the major appeals to following an alternative
religious path (e.g. one that is not yet some brand of orthodox faith) is
that it makes us individually responsible for satisfying our own spiritual
needs.  I hope the person who raised this debate isn't discouraged, though,
by the patronizing (or perhaps in ailsa's case matronizing) tone of the 
responses.  It is good to raise feelings that something is not quite right
with the status quo.  I'm sure the dianic movement started with similar
expressions of frustration.

Blessed be, and don't forget to have fun!
Bob Duniway				duniway@u.washington.edu