HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"Catholic@American.edu"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:05:02 -0400
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Anti-Biblical

Me = >>
Andrew = >
>>What I saw was a lot of circumstantial evidence like 'so and so said this
>>and what it means is', 'Genesis is literal blah, blah, blah', 'it's a
>>tradition and life as we know it will end if we change tradition', 'Jesus
>>had a penis and so did the twelve apostles so it must be important', etc.

>Hardly. The Church does not use this line of reasoning to defend its position
>that only men may be priests. Rather, the Church is merely adhering to the
>instructions laid out in Corinthians regarding women. The Church's present
>position, then, is well supported by the Bible. If you wish to be
>anti-Biblical, you certainly have that choice.

This reason falls into my 'so and so said this and what it means is'.
It's becoming obvious to me that many take what is literally written in
the Bible as the Gospel truth. :-) (just in case)  Is every word of Scripture
so divinely inspired that not a drop of human prejudice or bigotry crept in?
Is suggesting otherwise being anti-Biblical, anti-Catholic or anti-Christian?
Is my frustration level rising again?:-)

>-ACF

Ok, so I'm anti-Biblical, do my excommunication papers arrive soon:-) -J.J.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: The American University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 09:37:51 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: pre Vat II?

On Sat, 26 Sep 1992 14:41:00 EDT Liz Moreau said:
>>Careful, careful careful.  For you as a Catholic, you wouldn't want to suggest
>>that as a Catholic you could walk away from the Church and not walk away from
>>your faith would you?  Don't you mean that local community?  But I have to
>
>Yes, I honestly believe I could walk away from the church.  IMHO, the
>body of believers are the church.

Liz, I urge you to reconsider. The Church is a big place. If your local
parish is not to your liking, then I would suggest you start looking
around for one which is more to your style. To suggest that the actions
of one priest could drive you from the Catholic Church is to suggest that
the problems with your faith are really much deeper, and you are choosing
to use those actions as an excuse to do something you were already
inclinded to do.

If this is the case, I implore you to give the church one more chance. We
would miss you, and what you have to offer. And you would miss the graces
that can come from a church where you can be comfortable and worship
without the stresses which come from your current situation.

The fact that you joined in the discussions here indicate you haven't
given up completely on the church. Please, spend the time to find a
community where you can feel comfortable, and where you can deeped your
relationship with God.

>>admit, here I am very old church.  One does not pick one's parish.  God
>>places you in a community for better or worse.  What these people are doing
>>may be quite irregular and at times dangerous for the community; but your
>>duty is to the Church which is there in that local community.  You have

I disagree completely. One should indeed choose one's parish. This is not
the ninteenth century where transportation options are limited. We have
the power now to move around easily, and have the choice of many local
catholic christian communities.

The most important thing is to deepen our relationship with God. In the
final analysis, nothing else matters. If people sitting during the
consecration prevents us from being with God -- if we spend our time
fretting about it and not praying -- then the solution is not to bother
the 99% who are comfortable with that style of worship, but rather to
find a place where we feel at home.

Our definition of "local" need no longer mean the arbitrary lines drawn
on a map, but rather the local community should be one where we find
peace and are able to worship God fully.

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing)
Subject: Re: Galileo (WAS something else
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:56:22 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In <92280.092632MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET> Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
writes:

>Dave,

>You say, "At one time (April 12, 1633) the church began a series of
>hearings against a man who stood against something that the Church
>put its foot down on.  Precisely, the issue of Heliocentricity and
>its famous professor Galileo, were silenced by the Church.  The
>Church had official teachings that were considered sacred regarding
>Terra being the center of the Universe.  It's impossible, the Church
>shouted!  We are the most important in the whole of Creation, there-
>fore the Universe must be centered around us!  Today, we all know
>that Galileo was right and the Church was wrong."

>[Stuff deleted for brevity]

My apologies if I misinterpreted or misrepresented the Church's position on
Galileo.  I had done a paper on it when I attended St. Meinrad College 
(A Benedictine Seminary).  The following were sources that I used:

Campbell, Ian.  "Galileo and Modern Science."  _Galileo Galilei:  Toward a
     Resolution of 350 Years of Debate--1633-1983._ Ed. Paul Cardinal Poupard.
     Pittsburg:  Duquesne University Press, 1987.

DeSantillana, Giorgio.  _The Crime of Galileo._  Chicago:  The U. of Chicago
     Press, 1955.

Ebbighausen, E. G.  _Astronomy_.  5th ed.  Columbus:  Merrill, 1985.

Hall, A. R.  _The Scientific Revolution._  Boston:  Beacon, 1956.

Hartner, Willy.  "Galileo's contribution to astronomy."  _Galileo:  Man of
     Science._  Ed. Ernan McMullin.  New York:  Basic, 1967.

Koyre, Alexandre.  _Galileo Studies._  New Jersey:  Huamnities Press, 1978.

McMullin, Ernan, ed.  "Introduction."  _Galileo:  Man of Science._  New York:
     Basic, 1967.

Vinaty, Bernard.  "Galileo and Copernicus."  _Galileo Galilei:  Toward a
     Resolution of 350 Years of Debate--1633-1983._  Ed. Paul Cardinal Poupard.
     Pittsburgh:  Duquesne University Press, 1987.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Jansing                     | "What we call the beginning is often the end
Electrical Engineering Department|  And to make an end is to make a beginning.
University of Louisville         |  The end is where we start from . . ."
                                 |  -- T.S. Eliot, "Four Quartets"
              Internet:  edjans01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:	The opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not
		necessarily reflect those of the Department of Electrical
		Engineering or any other department within the University
		of Louisville.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: D.G.Mcreavy@newcastle.ac.uk (D.G. Mcreavy)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Greeley
Date: 1 Oct 92 11:01:32 GMT
Distribution: bit
Organization: Computing Laboratory, U of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK NE1 7RU.



>Someone had asked what Father Greeley thinks about abortion.  
>
>According to a book that he wrote a few years back, the name of which I can't
>quite remember, but was something along the lines of _The_Catholic_Church_in_
>America_, he said that abortion was an evil, but that some circumstances it
>isn't the greatest evil.  The implication of his statement being that in
>certain situations abortion would be a "better" choice.
>

I believe the book is 'The Catholic Myth' and I recommend it to you all.
The part about abortion is not the main point of discussion, however.
It is an attempt to explain why people remain Catholics when they profoundly disagree with our current leaders, usually on contraception,
divorce, women priests. The reason which he discusses at length is that
Catholics have a different outlook on religion, which is called the 
analogical approach and which they find profoundly attractive. So they put up with leaders that they disagree with because there is nothing better elsewhere.

The book is very optimistic and I think we could do with some reason for hope at the time.

Dominic McReavy.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dennis L Schenkel)
Subject: Altar girls; Ecumenism, Tolerance and the Truth
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 13:10:21 GMT

Two recent postings by Steve Otlowski contain common misunderstandings which I 
would like to help clear up.  I hope that by doing so, I will help fulfill what
Jesus called for when He prayed that we might be one.

1. Altar girls--With respect to altar girls, Steve has said the following:

****(stuff deleted)
Although this has nothing to do with the question of who should be
servers it is amusing to note that, after all this discussion,

The American Church has been granted permission to allow
women as servers.
Just one step is a long journey of course...
****(stuff deleted)

The American Church has expressly forbidden it and it only occurs in places 
where pastors are ignoring their vow of obedience to their bishops.


2. Corner on Truth--In a separate posting on ecumenism and religious tolerance,
Steve writes:

****(stuff deleted)
Is truth not truth no matter where it comes from?
There is much to be revealed to us from the teachings of other cultures.
"We" do not have a corner on the truth market or on insights into the
nature of the Godhead.
It is interesting to note that most religions have more in common than
they do appart.  God reveals himself to different peoples in ways their
cultures allow them to understand.
****(stuff deleted)

The Catholic Church teaches that God completely revealed God's self to us 
through Jesus.  In that sense, we DO INDEED have a corner on truth.  Other 
religions thoughout the world also contain part of the truth, and we have an 
obligation to help them see the truth which God has revealed to them through 
their own history and through God's interaction with them.  However, we believe
that the whole truth exists only in the Catholic Church.  (I would appreciate 
some V2 docs on ecumenism to back me up here if anyone can cite one).

Pax
Dennis Schenkel, English Grad Stu, Ohio State
-- 




Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen)
Subject: Re: sinead o'connor
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:06:53 GMT

v201lrxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BILL S. PRESTON, ESQ.) writes:

>last night i was watching 'saturday night live' on nbc. the musical
>guest, sinead o'connor, was performing what seemed to be a relatvely
>decent song about breaking down all the barriers that divide people
>today. at the end of the song, she held up a picture of the pope and
>said, "Let's fight the real enemy," and tore the picture to shreds.
>my friends and myself were outraged at this display of blasphemy,
>and i am wondering if anyone else was witness to this, and what 
>your reactions are. 

	I've already made a few posts on this on alt.rock-n-roll so
check that out for an on going discussion.  We can't figure out if
she said, "Fight the real enemy" or "evil", I think it was enemy.
	People in that group think she did it to protest the Catholic
Church's position on abortion.  They say that she is a major pro-choice
activist, although that's certainly nothing to be proud of.
	The text of the song was originally a speach given to the UN in
1969 and then turned into a song by Bob Marley.  
	Personaly, I hope this is the last we hear from Miss O'Connor.


Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:30:35 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mary

Excerpts from catholic: 2-Oct-92 Re: Mary URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM (333)

> >From your reasoning we could call Joseph the 'Father of God'. We would
> not be entirely wrong unless you consider a parent only those who have
> genetic links to a person. The question of Jesus' genetic links I'll
> let other decide, and also those of James:-) - J.J.

OK, if you want to talk genetics, Mary is the Mother of God because she
contributed 23 chromosomes to the God-man.  There is a real biological
link between Mary and God.  There is no biological link between Joseph
and God.

The point is that Mary was the Mother of God in every way that any woman
is a mother.

James, of course, according to Catholic doctrine, was not Mary's son.

Eric
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.4 1/31/90)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 10:03:13 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: A power vocation?
              vocation?" (Oct  2, 11:19am)

One of the scriptural references for justifying the ordination of
women is Gen 1:26-27.  BOTH male and female were created in the image
of God.   Now what is your reference for NOT, Paul's admonition that
the first century women should be silent in chruch?  Yet the RC church
allows women as lectors......slight paradox there....

Shalom,                         Len Howard
                                tas@pegasus.com
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: women priests (yet again)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 92 09:49:16 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

Some rambling thougts and questions:

1.  Is there any precedent for women priests in any historical documents?  I
believe there are precedents for women deacons, but I don't know of any for the
priesthood.  Also, are there any examples of women rabbais?

2.  Is there any scriptural precedent for women priests (other than Genesis)?

3.  Given that the RCC has taken so adamant a stand against women priests, what
justification has the Episcopal Church used to allow ordination of women?

4.  Are there any examples of the Church reversing itself on matters as
important as the makeup of the priesthood?  Mass in the vernacular comes to
mind as an example of something done for so long as to become part of
Tradition, yet it was reversed.

Well, enough questions.  Just one more observation:  for the Church to say that
women should not seek ordination as a means of social advancement seems to put
the Church in the same position as the US Congress.  Congress passes a lot of
laws designed to promote social justice and equality, yet they exempt
themselves from most of those same laws.  The Church works for social justice
around the world, sometimes going to extremes to promote it.  Yet the Church
excmpts itself from this same movement towards equality.  Interesting.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 13:07:56 PDT
From:         Norman Kraft <nkraft@BKHOUSE.CTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: mysticism
              92 2:29 pm

> >Guided imagery is done all the time in virtually every Catholic
> >Church. It is simply meditation, or deep relaxed thought, on images
> >that are suggested by another person. It is a tool, rather than a
> >doctrine, or spiritual path, and at its base is really just hypnosis.
>
> Yes, it really is just hypnosis!  We are warned against this in the
> Bible.  We are told not to give over control of ourselves to anything
> or anyone.  People that are in a hypnotic state usually don't remember
> anything or just a little bit of what happened when they were under.

Well, what we are warned against is giving control over to someone
else. Most people that have never done hypnosis (from either end
of the experience) assume that hypnosis involves such a loss of
control. The fact is, it doesn't. People who have been in a hypnotic
state generally remember *everything* that happens, except for
certain very infrequent uses of deep trances such as those used
for pain control during surgery. Guided imagery is hypnosis, but
a very light level of hypnosis.

Have you ever had someone say to you "Close your eyes. Now picture/
visualize...". If you have, then you have been hypnotized. This is
not a loss of control, and you remember everything. I have used
hypnosis clinically (I am trained in it) a number of times, and I
have never seen someone who could not get up from the chair and walk
out at any time, nor has anyone forgotten anything that they did not
choose to. If the imagery given is acceptable to the subject, there
is cooperation and hypnosis happens. If the imagery is not acceptable
to the subject ("visualize a murder..."), the subject will not be
hypnotized, and the experience will reduce to simply an unpleasant
conversation.

There are many parts of the Catholic Mass, if you are really
participating, that suggest particular internal visualizations of
events that are not happening to the physical eye. This is guided
imagery, this is hypnosis. Hypnosis is simply a description of a
particular mental state, it is not some practice with doctrines and
dark motives. Anytime someone suggests to you what you should imagine,
or what to visualize, this is guided visualization and hypnosis. There
is nothing dangerous about it, and there is no loss of control. In
most cases of dealing with things that are beyond the physical, hypnosis
is an essential part of the process.

Norm.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Kraft, Senior Partner          INET : nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com
Argus Computing & Multimedia          UUCP : ucsd!crash!bkhouse!nkraft
San Diego, CA                         GENIE: N.KRAFT3
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 09:43:34 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: pre-vat II?

Karl,

Which book, chapter and verse was that quote from Ignatius?

Thanks,
Eric
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: kschudt@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Karl C Schudt)
Subject: Greeley
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:16:31 GMT


Hi, I just saw Father  Greeley (You know the one that writes the books)
on PBS. He was rhapsodizing about the wonders of Bill Clinton and
Carol Mosely-Braun. I don't want to start a political flamewar here,
but I would like to know if anyone knows how Greeley reconciles voting
for pro-abortion candidates. Specifically, Clinton has said that he would
sign the "Freedom of Choice" Act, which bans all restrictions on abortion
and pays for it with tax dollars.

Once again, I am not interested in a Clinto vs. Bush flame war, I am just
wondering if anyone knows what Greeley thinks about abortion. (Carol
M-B is a senatorial candidate in my former home state of IL )

Please no flames!!!!! E-mail would be fine :)


Karl Schudt
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 07:37:47 -0500
From:         "(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fatima: warning or prediction

:From: "(Peder Larsen)" <pol30546@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
:
:topcat@hardy.u.washington.edu (Thanh - Vincent) writes:
:
:>why do you worry?  is God not just?  will he not judge justly and
:>accordingly?  you don't have to believe in God to be saved.  you don't
:>have to be catholics either.  whatever you believe, as long as you live a
:>clean life with a clean conscience, what else can God ask of you?
:>He can't blame you for what you don't know.
:
:        You don't need to believe in God to be saved?  Beg to differ!!!
:        What else can God ask of you?   Much, much more.
:        He can't blame you for what you don't know?  Why not?

Agreed.  Romans 1:20 and Wisdom 13:1-9 go even further and point out
that men will not be excused from not knowing God because His existance
can be deduced through His works (that is, creation).

Also 1 John 5:11-13

"And the testimony is this: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in
His Son.  Whoever posses the Son posses life; whoever does not possess
the Son of God does not posses life.  I am writing this to you to make you
realize that you posses eternal life - you who believe in the name of the
Son of God"

Rom 10:9-10

"For if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your hearts
Him who sent Him, you will be saved. Faith in the heart leads to justification,
confession on the lips to salvation"

I could go on, but don't want to run the risk of being
called a Protesteant (a really big :-)

Joel Neisen				 joel@msc.edu
Minnesota Supercomputer Center		"Mock not the worn cloak"
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Organization: University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, North Dartmouth, MA, USA
X-VMS-To: IN::"catholic%auvm@vtvm2.cc.vt.edu"
X-VMS-Cc: EMOREAU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 09:41:00 EDT
Comments:     A VAX cluster with VMS V5.5, PMDF V4.0-22, JNET V3.5 & UCX V1.3A
From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Turning the Other Cheek

I know what the Bible says about turning the other cheek.  It is hard
enough for adults to do, but I was wondering about the parents out
there.  How do you instruct your children?

We know that school grounds aren't like they used to be.  If you child
is being taunted, do you tell him to walk away?  Does this set up the
child for more taunting?  How does everyone handle these things?

					Liz Moreau
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 11:58:13 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Altar girls

On Sep 26, 10:25pm, "Nancy M. Piatkowski" wrote:
} Subject: servers vs acolytes
} Granted acolyte is a minor order on the road to priesthood but answer me- do
 we
} have enough young men ordained to the order of acolyte to serve at every Mass
} offered in this country every day- regular, funeral, wedding etc?  Our parish
} has three regular daily Masses, five on the weekend, often as many as three
} weddings each weekend and in one week recently over five funerals--  I haven't
} seen a decree from Rome making it a matter of church law to not use girls- as
 I
} said last week we do and they serve well. Yes someone complained to the
 Bishop-
} a non-parishoner at a wedding. My wonderful, deeply spiritual pastor's
} response- "I may not be from Missouri but show me in Canon Law where it says
 we
} can't".
}-- End of excerpt from "Nancy M. Piatkowski"

	The document in question (the same one quoted in an earlier note
as being quoted by the Bishop of New Orleans) is 'Inaestimabile Donam'.
I would be glad to xerox it and send it to you AND your pastor.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
The program is absolutely right; therefore the computer must be wrong.