HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: <PSUVM.PSU.EDU!BLD110>
Subject: Re: Thomas Standing Bear
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:33:00 GMT

Original Sender: <PSUVM.PSU.EDU!BLD110>

Thank you for the beautiful poem.  I do not know Thomas Standing Bear, but I
have felt the Loss of Sun Bear of the Bear tribe in Oregon, and your poem
touched my heart with the breath of his spirit.  Thank you for that blessing.
                             Betty Lee Dowlin
From: Jack.Smoke@launchpad.unc.edu (Jack Smoke)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Native Lingo Keyboards
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:11:15 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service

Does anyone know of a keyboard or font for the Sequoian (cherokee) charactors?
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Xref: sparky alt.native:1780 news.groups:26102 soc.culture.misc:539
From: hrmeyer@ucselx.sdsu.edu (meyer h)
Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups,soc.culture.misc
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Summary: not too narrow, please
Keywords: charter
Date: 22 Jan 93 19:46:42 GMT
Organization: SDSU Computing Services

I think it would be a major mistake to exclude groups which already have a
newsgroup.  Followed to it's logical conclusion, this would outlaw posts
from inhabitants of the USA and Canada, on the grounds that such should be
part of soc.culture.usa and soc.culture.canada .  If you're bent on
eliminating all redundancy, all posts by women or which speak of women's
issues should be in soc.women .  I expect the result of such would be to
make it easier for the dominant cultures to "divide and rule."

Defining native narrowly in the charter will not prevent a malicious person
of any culture from posting insults, and will likely even increase such, as
it would stir up more traffic if people dig up and argue about the charter
each time it happens.

The question I ask myself when I read a post is not "Is this person a
native?" but "Does this make sense to me?"  I recognize that different people
will find different posts meaningful, as we need things near enough to the
way we think to have meaning, but different enough to show us a new viewpoint.

My approach would be not to try to define who is a native, but to give a
broad definition of the cultural issues we seek to address (issues of concern
to members of dispossessed or threatened pre-existing cultures), and to try to
encourage constructive communication on those issues with all interested
people who are capable of it.  It may be negative to speak of losses as the
common element of native cultures, but I see it as positive to recognize those
losses, and to try to work together to oppose further losses.

Harry R. Meyer     hrmeyer@ucssun1.sdsu.edu
              (account in process of being moved from ucselx to ucssun1,
                 ucssun1 ends in numeral 1)
Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups,soc.culture.misc
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:17:13 GMT

ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleen S. Davis) writes:
	Gary Trujillo writes:
>>...  However, I would not consider it appropriate to bring up subjects
>>of politics or general culture concerning any region unless it relates
>>specifically to the lives and cultures of the original inhabitants of
>>the place, and I think that feature of an article should be the deciding
>>factor in deciding whether or not it is appropriate for the newsgroup.

>This is well considered.  Perhaps this very sentence could be reworded
>to express the idea we're trying to clarify in the charter -- that
>soc.culture.native is not intended to draw discussions away from other
>newsgroups.  The redundancy issue is important, and we need to solicit
>suggestions for the best phrasing.  I personally don't feel up to the
>task.  Anyone have any more ideas?

>-sz

The important question of overlap, it seems to me, is an 
unavoidable one in virtually every newsgroup in USENET.  
For example, even if the focus of the proposed newsgroup were 
limited to native.american, it would overlap significantly 
with talk.environment.  No newsgroup is an island unto itself. 
As someone pointed out, we deal with this overlap by using 
the wonders of the cross post.

At the same time, I can't see how it would hurt anything to add
a sentence or two indicating that this newsgroup welcomes posts 
that might be of interest to other native peoples arou the world
from such newsgroups as soc.culture.asia or soc.culture.africa.
If someone wishes to try their hand at a well-tooled phrase that
captures the essense of our concerns, I would be happy to vote for
its addition.

How does this sound to you, Brian?

Mike

==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups,soc.culture.misc
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 04:38:47 GMT

In <C16HLL.JL3@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
	(Karleen S. Davis) writes:

> hades@Dartmouth.Edu writes:

> >...The charter has
> >to be narrow enough for this group to find its own traffic and not pull
> >traffic from the already existing soc.culture.* groups.

> Add a clause to the charter stating that soc.culture.native is for all
> native peoples as described UNLESS there is another more specific
> newsgroup for a certain people, and then go on to mention an example
> like soc.culture.african...

This proposed solution sounds as if it might be able to deal with Brian's
objections.  However, I feel that certain issues which pertain even to
regions like Asia and Africa would be appropriate for soc.culture.native.
For example, the Ainu indigenous people of Japan, and certain tribal
groups in Africa certainly have a lot in common with indigenous peoples
from other parts of the world, so I feel that the mere fact of there
already being a newsgroup to deal with some specific region should not
be cause to dis-invite a given discussion from soc.culture.native.  My
hunch is that newsgroups like soc.culture.{africa,asia} would tend to
be dominated by discussions concerning rather general topics about those
places, and not specifically with the kinds of things that get talked
about in alt.native at present.  My point is that soc.culture.native has
the potential and promise of being a forum where conversations about
subjects pertaining to various indigenous peoples all over the planet
can take place, so there is no good reason I can see to exclude consid-
eration of issues pertaining to a given place solely on grounds of there
being a pre-existing newsgroup that deals with some certain part of the
world.  However, I would not consider it appropriate to bring up subjects
of politics or general culture concerning any region unless it relates
specifically to the lives and cultures of the original inhabitants of
the place, and I think that feature of an article should be the deciding
factor in deciding whether or not it is appropriate for the newsgroup.

Comments?

--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: ccs.carleton.ca!fvalenti (Fraser Valentine)
Subject: Re:      Native Culture Loss?
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:03:27 GMT

Original Sender: ccs.carleton.ca!fvalenti (Fraser Valentine)

In article <1993Jan26.181056.736@cunews.carleton.ca> you write:
>Original Sender: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
>Mailing List:    NATCHAT (nn.chat@gnosys.svle.ma.us)
>
>A problme or a thing that I have noticed, atleast here in Nome is the problme
>of Cultural as well as Genetic degredation (maybe not the right word),
>basically that alot of local Eskimos seem to want to become "white", dress
>white, look white and date whites.. Also they try to not speak their native
>tongue(s)..To worship white gods. Also do "white man" drugs (alcohol, coke,
>marijuana(?). Also they have children with whites (Im speaking of women)...
>Its an interesting thing to see.. Im guilty of helping at times, I like women.
>Im mostly white (15/16th if I can believe my dad)..

I find your comments intertesting because I have often encountered people
who think that culture is static.  On the contrary, culture is constantly
in flux and I do not believe that you can attribute a 'loss' of culture in
your argument.  Although, I do agree that the dominent 'white society' has
played an enormous role in  the degredation of Native culture (ie.
suspension of the potlatch in British Columbia and the mythology
surrounding the museums) you should not feel guilty by espousing 'white'
values (whatever they are!).

I just found your comments to be an interesting springboard for a larger
discussion.  Much of what you said (and obviously the way you feel) would
be construed as over-generalization, but there is a certain amount of
validity in your comments and needs to be discussed further.

>Seems like kids here need to havea reason to keep their culture, other than
>the subsistance value and for membership in the local native corps..

Interesting comment!  Do you have any ideas as to how this can be done?
Is the repatriation of Native objects from museums the answer?


>Michael Adams
>Alias: Morgoth/Ghost Wheel
>nsmca@acad2.alaska.edu


Fraser Valentine
Carleton University
Ottawa
fvalenti@ccs.carleton.ca
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Interracial Relations
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:26:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <4fM0x2e00UhW41aace@andrew.cmu.edu>, Karin Berger <kb42+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes...
>I would be interested to hear from anybody who experienced native
>american/non native american relationships. 
> 
>What type of problems arose? How comfortable do you feel about it or do
>you prefer to stick with people of your own kind? 
> 
>Any thoughts welcome.
> 
>Thanks 
> 
>Karin
> 

Are you referring to "love" relationships or friendships or both?

Tammy
From: ecologycntr@igc.apc.org (Ecology Center)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Question of Nativity
Date: 23 Jan 93 00:45:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:9301181659.AA00975@sysof2:-1558810208:cdp:1308200102:000:50
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!ecologycntr    Jan 22 16:45:00 1993


Thanks for your thoughtful response, phil.

chris
Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups,soc.culture.misc
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:17:07 GMT

In <idoy.727797491@crux1.cit.cornell.edu> idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
	(Mike Wilson) writes:

> This looks like a winning charter to me, although I would prefer
> omitting the final negative sentence because it is implied in the
> previous positive statement...

> In this same vein, I would say in the previous sentence, something
> like: "Consequently, soc.culture.native welcomes all posts from
> other newsgroups which pertain to issues important to indigenous
> peoples."  It sounds a little more cheery, don't you think?

OK.  Point taken.  Here's another cut, then, also incorporating the
suggested definition of "indigenous" from Arlen Speights which he based
on the text sent by Preston Hardison, with one small amendment by
myself (changing the first instance of "country" to "territory"):


  CHARTER: Soc.culture.native is for the discussion  of  issues  relating  to
  native populations throughout the world.  For the purposes of defining this
  newsgroup, "native" is considered roughly synonymous with  "aboriginal"  or
  "indigenous."  All of these terms designate the existing descendents of the
  peoples who inhabited the present territory of a country at the  time  when
  persons  of  a different culture or ethnic origin colonized that territory,
  and who today  live  more  in  conformity  with  their  particular  social,
  economic  and cultural customs and traditions than with the institutions of
  the country of which they now form a part, under a  State  structure  which
  incorporates  mainly  the  national, social and cultural characteristics of
  other segments of the population which are now predominant.
  
  This newsgroup is intended to be  inclusive,  not  exclusive,  offering  an
  important  vehicle for exchange among native peoples and between native and
  non-native peoples.  Besides providing a forum for the discussion  of  such
  issues  as  sovereignty, religion, education and philosophy, this newsgroup
  will also carry news stories and bulletins which pertain to current  events
  relating   to  indigenous  peoples,  and  which  alert  readers  to  urgent
  situations which require immediate responses, such as  human  rights  cases
  and imminent encroachment upon native populations.
  
  We recognize that a number of Usenet newsgroups do exist for the purpose of
  exchanging  information  and  ideas  about  various peoples and places, and
  about issues (e.g., environment) which are relevant to the concerns of  the
  members  of  indigenous  societies.   Soc.culture.native  welcomes articles
  whose content pertains to topics important to indigenous peoples which  are
  cross-posted to other newsgroups.

Thanks, everyone.  I think we're getting there!

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups,soc.culture.misc
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 26 Jan 93 00:16:15 GMT

I'll try it again:


>Status: UNMODERATED

>CHARTER: Soc.culture.native is for the discussion  
>of issues relating to native populations throughout 
>the world.  For the purposes of defining this newsgroup, 
>"native" is considered roughly synonymous with "aboriginal"  
>or "indigenous" -- all terms which designate a populations's having <=====
>been the first to inhabit a particular region. This 
>newsgroup is intended to be inclusive, not exclusive,  
>offering  an important vehicle for exchange among native 
>peoples and between native and non-native peoples. Besides 
>providing a forum for the discussion of such issues  
>as sovereignty, religion, education and philosophy, 
>this newsgroup will also carry news stories and bulletins 
>which pertain to current events relating to indigenous 
>peoples, and which alert readers to urgent situations 
>which require immediate responses, such as human rights  
>cases and imminent encroachment upon native populations.
>  
>We recognize that a number of Usenet newsgroups do exist 
>for the purpose of exchanging information and ideas about  
>various peoples and places, and about issues (e.g., environment) 
>which are relevant to the concerns of the members of indigenous  
>societies. Soc.culture.native welcomes articles whose content 
>pertains to topics important to indigenous peoples which are
>cross-posted to other newsgroups.

>------------------------

Please note the correction, and thanks for your patience.

Mike
Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups,soc.culture.misc
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 28 Jan 93 15:13:41 GMT


Status: UNMODERATED

CHARTER: Soc.culture.native is for the discussion  
of issues relating to native populations throughout 
the world.  For the purposes of defining this newsgroup, 
"native" is considered roughly synonymous with "aboriginal"  
or "indigenous" -- all terms which designate a populations's having
been the first to inhabit a particular region. This 
newsgroup is intended to be inclusive, not exclusive,  

Hello Everyone,

A couple of words about this little debate we 
are having. I think it is worthwhile to remember the
reason why we needed this clause in here. It was to
give a voice to those people who are born in a country
and are therefore native to that country, but aren't
indigenous people.  I don't quarrel with their claim, and
so I put this phrase in here so they would now we were
thinking about them when we put this together.  I never
intended to make this charter DEFINE NATIVE PEOPLE, which
is what Preston Hardison's international concerns have 
been.  It can't be done, finally, even in the best of
circumstances. Let's forego such attempts in the creation of
this charter, get this job done by tomorrow (Friday), so Jan
can post the CFV with Dave Lawrence by the weekend.

Here is the sentence which is for the non-indigenous,
native people of different countries:

>the world.  For the purposes of defining this newsgroup, 
>"native" is considered roughly synonymous with "aboriginal"  
>or "indigenous" -- all terms which designate a populations's having
>been the first to inhabit a particular region. 

It's vague, yes, and I am open to changes which don't attempt
to say anything about difficult, emotional issues which can't
be solved here, and so don't belong here, viz., sovereignty,
oppression, urban v. rez Natives, race, &c.

Thanks for your help. Let's push forward now.

Mike


==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Umatilla Roots?
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 13:18:15 GMT

Odd question maybe.. My father used to tell me I was part Umatilla indian,
about 1/16th or so compliments of my Great-Grand-Mother, who was 1/2. Problem
was my Grand-Father disliked my Great-Grand. Also the times were not good for
anyone of mixed blood, so he sid he was white.. Well I do feel a a part of me
is lost and I like to know more about my roots.. Not sure if my dad was telling
the total truth, but I still would liek to know.. Culture, Lingo, and maybe a
few cousins... 


Michael Adams
Alias: Morgoth/Ghost Wheel 
nsmca@acad2.alaska.edu
another crazy Gusik..
Nome, Alaska..
Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups,soc.culture.misc
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native newsgroup charter
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:36:55 GMT

In <pbl3sq+@rpi.edu> speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Arlen Speights) writes:

> I think the article is particularly useful to our charter, but in the
> interest of keeping the charter under a gigabyte, we'd have to be
> slective about paraphrasing...

> I think it would be better like this:

> ..."native is considered roughly synonymous with "aboriginal" or
> "indigenous" -- all terms that designate the existing descendents
> of the peoples who inhabited the present territory of a country
> at the time when persons of a different culture or ethnic origin
> colonized that country, and who today live more in conformity with
                 ^^^^^^^
> their particular social, economic and cultural customs and traditions
> than with the institutions of the country of which they now form a part..."
                                    ^^^^^^^

I can accept this paraphrased form of the text Dr. Hardison has offered,
but I feel that at least the first use of the word "country" marked above
should be replaced with the word "territory," since there was usually no
pre-existing national government, and since the colonization was of the
people, not of a government.  The second use of the word seems OK to me,
since a country has come into being and now exists.

> I think this would sufficiently narrow the focus of the group to
> reduce Unnescessary redundancy, while certainly leaving overlap
> where it's pertinent to both groups, such as the s.c.wherever groups.
> IMHO, of course.  It also resolves some vagueness that I feel is
> contained in the "first to inhabit a region;" indigenous peoples
> often have and do migrate in some cases, it's the contact with the
> Different culture that creates most of the issues we've seen on
> alt.native and NativeNet.

Agreed.

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
From: duneman7484@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: RE:UNBELIEVABLE!!
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:30:36 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Just happened to peek in on the net today and saw a couple of things that
my attention. Most important point made in the response to "UNBELIEVABLE" by,
ummm... sorry I forgot the name ... but, as was pointed out, conversations
about native "trials and tribulations" are most often PAST TENSE. Far too many
white folk today seem to think that this past is gone and forgiven. It is
neither, I think. I am in New Mexico (the "center" of Indian land ?? Santa Fe  
and all;-)  ) and let me assure you it didn't "just end" in 1890. If any of
you know anything about strip mining, Churchrock, nuclear waste dumping, 
boarding schools, Peltier and such it is fairly clear to us that there is the
SAME land theft, the SAME culture theft, the SAME lies and deceptions NOW.
I dunno, it seems to me this whole "in the past" thing has done more damage to
the current battles than perhaps anything else. As far as America is concerned
there is no "Indian problem" today. Just wanted to add a little umphhh to that
point and urge everyone (especially white folks who seem to enjoy discussing
Indians often) to make this abundantly clear in any conversation about "what
this country *DID* (past tense) to so many people. A start maybe. 
Peace.
Jeff Duneman
Duneman@bootes.unm.edu

Newsgroups: alt.native
Newsgroups: alt.native
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 10:14:10 -0500 
From: Karin Berger <kb42+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Interracial Relations

I would be interested to hear from anybody who experienced native
american/non native american relationships. 

What type of problems arose? How comfortable do you feel about it or do
you prefer to stick with people of your own kind? 

Any thoughts welcome.

Thanks 

Karin

Xref: sparky alt.native:1819 news.groups:26407 soc.culture.misc:584