From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
Subject: Re: The Harrassing Phone Calls Can Stop NOW!
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:10:04 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Sep11.161617.22330@spdcc.com>, rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
> >In article <12234@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# ##Oh?  Can you provide some examples?  I have yet to hear any of
# ##the fundamentalists argue for extermination of homosexuals.
# 
# 	"The fundamentalists" really can be any organized body, really.

No, "fundamentalist" has a rather precise meaning -- people who
subscribe to a Protestant school of interpretation of the Bible that 
stresses inerrancy of Scripture, divinity of Christ, etc.  There is a 
common use of "fundamentalist" to refer to similar groups within
the Catholic Church and Islam, but the word itself comes from a
series of pamphlets distributed just afer the turn of the century
in the U.S., known as _The Fundamentalists of Christianity_.

It isn't just "any organized body."

# Apart from the fact that between 500,000 and 1,000,000 gays and lesbians
# were exterminated by the Nazis (I can understand Cr*m*r not knowing this,
# since it is written out of almost all Holocaust information in the US, 
# including the traveling Anne Frank museum - I haven't heard yet if it
# will also be left off of the new Holocaust memorial in the US, but
# I expect it will...), there are several groups willfully killing
# gays and lesbians.  This just appeard on the net this morning.

I know full well about the Nazis -- and alongside Jews and homosexuals
were a lot of fundamentalists, because the Nazis considered the
fundamentalists their enemies, along with others who put their "narrow" 
understanding of the Bible above the demands of the State.  The Nazis
were not fundamentalists, quite the contrary.

# 	[This was several hundred lines long - I've edited out
# a great deal since I think for sane people, the point is made
# pretty much right off the top...  For bigots, it doesn't matter since
# they'll come up with some excuse or other rationalization...]
# 
# 	There are of course countless other examples.  As far as
# religious fundamentalists go, there was a study done inthe last year
# by a woman who interviewed convicted gay bashers to find out their motivation
# for their crimes.  The overwhelming rationalization was that they had
# been taught from early on that gays/lesbians were so vile that it was
# just and a "good thing" to get rid of them.  They said that most of this
# messages came from within their churches, schools, and families.
# "Everyone hates faggots, so who'd care if someone got rid of a few?"

Odd.  But why can't you actually find a source for your claim?
SHOW ME!  You see, even the most fundamentalist people I know oppose
gay bashing.  I have yet to meet anyone that supports it.  (Then
again, I don't know anyone that supports violent attacks on 
peaceful people.  Do you?)

# 	I will try and track down the name of the author and
# title of th book etc.
# 	So, Clayton, try and worm out of this one.

Worm out of what?  I asked for some evidence, and you gave me
some criminals who think that someone is telling them to do it --
in the abstract, "THEY told me."  Come on, you guys must be able
to find SOME absurd quotes from a fundamentalist on this issue,
support extermination of homosexuals.

# 1200 Gays Murdered in Brazil Over Past Decade
# 
# Every five days, a gay man or lesbian is murdered in Brazil.  Luis
# Mott, founder and president of Grupo Gay de Bahia, the most active
# gay organization in Brazil, has documented approximately 1200
# murders in the past decade.  Only about 10% of the killers are
# ever brought to justice.  Murders are most often committed by
# hustlers who rob their victims, kill them, and then escape
# prosecution.  In the few cases where charges are filed, the
# murderers go free or receive light sentences, based on a court
# defense that they were forced to defend their honor against sexual
# advances by their victims.  In a recent case, a 26-year-old Sao
# Paolo man was imprisoned only after brutally murdering a dozen
# wealthy gay men he picked up in a public park.  The judiciary is
# also rife with homophobia; one judge told Mott, "To kill a gay is
# like killing a dog." Organized hate crimes are also common in
# Brazil.  Mott has documented twelve paramilitary organizations
# throughout the country that have dedicated themselves to
# exterminating homosexuals and transvestites.  These groups
# specialize in gruesome murders.  One such organization, Comando de
# Ca a aos Gays, has claimed responsiblity for assassinations and
# mutilations of several Rio de Janiero transvestites.  Please write
# to the Brazilian secretary of human rights.  Tell the Secretary
# that Brazil has a duty to protect all its citizens, regardless of
# their sexual orientation.  Demand that Brazil begin to apprehend,
# prosecute, and punish the murderers of gay people, that the
# country eliminate the prejudice against homosexuals in the courts,
# that the judicial process be reformed to eliminate defense of
# honor as grounds for murdering gay people, and that the government
# cease tolerating the existence of paramilitary organizations
# dedicated to killing homosexuals and transvestites.  Postage to
# Brazil is $.50 per half-ounce.

OK, now tell where the fundamentalists come in.  Remember that
you could hold a convention of fundamentalists in a pretty small
hall in Brazil, and Mexico, the other country you cited.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
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