HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: forman@fraser.sfu.ca (Pamela Catherine Forman)
Subject: Back posting
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 04:11:47 GMT

Just last night I was whizzing through rec.sport.fencing and came
across an article where someone had posted some information from an
engineer friend about kevlar and how it breaks down.  Come to think of
it there was also a similar technical write-up on maraging blades and
how they are formed.  I hadn't saved or printed these off so if anyone
knows the numbers of these articles or could perhaps e-mail them to me
I'd much appreciate it.  Thanks.

					Alan Stewart
					     -)-----

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: philo@athena.mit.edu (philo)
Subject: Re: ascii fencing art
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:15:34 GMT

In article <BzD425.1Dn@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu>, ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley) writes:
|> I have another fencing and computer literate friend who was trying to
|> put an ascii fencer in his .signature.  Anyone have what they feel is a
|> reasonable representation of a fencer, sword, USFA logo or the like
|> that you would care to share with the world?
|> 
|> -- 
|> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Instrument Approach Procedures Automation              DOT/FAA/AMI-230
|> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Bryan D. Oakley                    ctrbdo%iapa@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu

Uh..I saw this on the net once and stole it. I hope whoever created it is not
upset, but here it is:



 . o        c ,
  "#v--  --v#"
  /'>      <`\


I like it :+)


-philo
-- 
.....................
dakhlak.... hawn nazl s suruur?
				(Ziad)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Might someone have the phone numbers/addresses for NY fencing club
Keywords: nyc salles
Date: 28 Dec 92 15:17:16 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: CONCERT-CONNECT -- Public Access UNIX

In article <Bzv5r7.GH2@cs.columbia.edu> bressen@cs.columbia.edu (Andrew Bressen) writes:
>In article <105611@bu.edu> schin@acs.bu.edu (neil schier) writes:
>>in NY. However, his school I guess is on break. Might someone else have the
>>address for an org in NYC or one of the burroughs?
>
>The New York Fencing Club is actually called the New York Fencing Club,
>or at least my call to 411 yielded the following info under that name:
>212-874-9800. 154 West 71st Street, NYC.

Call in the evening -- after 5 or 6 pm

>Also, there is fencing activity at:
>New York Athletic Club, 180 Central Park South, 212-247-5100.
>
>and Salle Santelli, 
>465 South Dean Street, Englewood, NJ (right across the GW Bridge), 
>201-871-3105.

There's also a Salle Santelli in NYC (20th, near Bway, I think).
I don't have the number ready but it's a good place to fence.  Again,
evenings are the time when the most people are around.

>NYU, Columbia University, and (I think) Hunter College all have fencing
>teams as well.

Dunno about NYU or Hunter but if you want to fence at Columbia, you
first need an ID to get into the gym -- and if you aren't enrolled as
a student, be prepared to shell out some bucks.  (All the teams
M/W/JV/V practice weekdays 4-6 pm)

So says the ex-CU-JV-WF-fencer.  ;-)


-Patricia
 penfold@rock.concert.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity.  Those who would
like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity."  --Nietzsche
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu (Brian Scott Wilson)
Subject: Re: style/SCA
Reply-To: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:23:52 GMT


Seems to me I recognize this as the snap blow bellatrix teaches, (yes he taught
it to me too). 

I generally modify this blow two ways. First I adopt what I refer 
to as the universal fighting stance.  That is, feet shoulder width to shoulder
width and a half, feet pointing outwards at a slight angle, knees bent, weight
distributed as needed for the type of fighting you are doing. The head, not the
hips, is pointed in the direction you are fighting- to the left for right handed
sword and shield.

I also modify this by being able to lock in my arm to receive to energy from my 
body in any normal gaurd position. The way I teach, there are two arcs of rotation 
that are available to position your sword. One arc runs from a low gaurd with the 
hand at the waist to the rear gaurd which you describe. The hand is held comfortably 
in any position in this arc. The other arc runs from a high gaurd (sometimes called 
a hanging gaurd) to the low gaurd in an arc that is parallel to the shield. The 
other arc is somewhat perpindicular to the shield. The power can be conducted from 
the hips to the sword as you described while in any position along these two arcs.

As this is advanced technique, I generally start students in a natural gaurd with 
the sword over the shoulder.

Once again, I have found hat this stance only modified as needed for different adversaries, is a universal stance for any type of fighting. I can fence from
this position, kick, punch, move quickly, grapple and throw. You may find a need to
stiffen a leg, straighten a leg, shift you weight occassionally, but this is the 
best rest position to meet any attack, all other positions are simply transitory, 
as is as it should be.

Comments?

Brian
From: king@reasoning.com (Dick King)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: NorCal tournament schedule?
Date: 28 Dec 92 22:44:13 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Reasoning Systems, Inc., Palo Alto, CA


Have any of you seen one yet?

There's going to be an epee tournament at Halberstadt on 1/2/93, but i'm loath
to go if i think it's very poorly publicized.

-dk
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: Re: style/SCA
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 08:44:09 GMT



I am sorry. I started this thread to discuss the techniques involved in SCA
style sword work. It was not started to discuss the historical use of the
weapons. To that end I have clearly marked the posting "style/SCA" so as not to
offend or waste the time of any "classic" fencers. Dragging  the discussion off
in a different direction is a bit like me jumping in to a discussion about
right of way and saying it is a silly rule because I always maintained the idea
that it did not matter who started the attack as long as my opponent was dead
at the end. I am sure that the people discussing right of way would think this
irrelevant and impolite. Read what I have said about technique, if you have
something useful to add to a discussion on technique then please do.

Unfortunately this conversation seems to be drifting towards that age old
argument between the edge and the point and I have no interest in that
quagmire. You do not need to take my opinion on the effectiveness of medieval
weapons. The dig report from the battle of Wisby (Thordemen, 1939) has an
interesting discription of the injuries acquired in the battle. If anyone has
an expertise in forensics and would like to explain how a sword might kill
then I would interested in listening. But please not in this thread.

I would like to return this thread to the discussion of technique in SCA sword
work.
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Keywords: KEYWORDS
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:34:07 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

>[Keywords] It even might improve the signal/noise
>ratio in this group, which I might add, is a lot higher than most rec.
>groups I've read in the past (we fencers are serious people.......<"caNAAT!!!)

Funny, I was reflecting on how the signal/noise ratio is so
much LOWER than most net groups, and how most folks here seem
to be both serious and knowledgable.  But then, that's why I
mostly have stopped reading the sci. heirarchy...  ;-)

Only half joking about sci. ...
--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"The field of pseudo-science hasn't progressed much in ten
years, except to gain access to the net." --from ca.earthquakes
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Re: duelling weapons
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:28:30 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.194546.11656@tfs.com> paigen@tfs.com (David Paigen) writes:
>I wanted to jump in here with a couple of comments.
>
>uzgiris@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Jim Uzgiris) writes:
>
>England, to the best of my knowledge, was the only European country that
>not only allowed the common folk to posses weapons, the crown required
>it.  I believe that this is a result of the Dane ancestry of England and
>her customs.  It is certainly the predecessor of the U.S. 2ed amendment.
>
>It was Henry VIII who realized that it is cheaper to raise an army if all
>of the soldiers already have weapons.  He instituted laws that reinforced
>old custom.

I believe it started in the 1200's when King Edward(? - the one that built
all the castles and conquered Wales) forbade the play of kickball type
games, and required everyone to practise Archery - he set up a large
tournament system [where the archery tourney in _Robin Hood_ came from].

Henry VIII came to the realization that bows were outdated, and that
firearms training would be required for a 'modern' army.  He used the
old laws to do this I think...

No doubt *Edward's* realization and implementation was made possible
without a mass noble revolt was the custom.

-- 
+-------------------------+--------------------------------+-----------------+
| Brent L. Irvine         | For a mere $50 these personal  | I will be gone: |
| irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu | opinions can also be yours!    | 20 Dec - 4 Jan  |
+-------------------------+--------------------------------+-----------------+
From: penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Left vs Right Handness
Date: 29 Dec 92 15:00:46 GMT
Organization: CONCERT-CONNECT -- Public Access UNIX


>For those of us who are familiar with French, doesn't 'cullottes' mean 
>underwear (female or otherwise)???
>
>
>					Andy Van Etten

I guess straight translation would be short-legged trousers.
Les sans-culottes were revolutionaries -- they were without the
knickers and knee-high socks of the upper classes.

-Patricia
 penfold@rock.concert.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity.  Those who would
like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity."  --Nietzsche
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Arms Race and historical limits on blade size
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 23:29:40 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

C

Please post

Phil Stracchino in <1gqs9sINN4e2@smurf.sti.com>

... rapiers being banned in favor of what came to be known as the
*smallsword*, which was basically just a legal fiction limiting the
length of a rapier.  The Elizabethan smallsword finds its closest
parallel in the epee....

So it was kind of an arms-limitation law, really, to try to cut down
on gratuitous murder in the guise of duels of honor.
Notice there was no attempt made at the time to outlaw duelling; the
law only tried to make sure that the duels that were fought were
approximately fair.

STEVE HICK Replies:

The ban was on swords over 6 feet and ruffs over 3 feet.  It was not
to favor the British "Short sword of convenient length" (not be
confused with the small sword of over a century later, which again is
not to be confused with the epee), but instead to control dueling in
the City of London.  The "small sword" had already lost among the
lords and dandies, remember that in the 1570s Rocco had taken over
their training. The lower classes were the fencing instructors who
were being hurt by the influx of foreigners.  Trehers were, I believe,
wire drawers, and another family were the Joyners, who were
carpenters.  The City had historically banned fencing within its
confines, beginning with an altercation among young lords in the early
13th century. The limitation was within the City, however, places that
USED to be religious within the City wpt, which is why you see many
references to Blackfriars (both for swordfighting and plays).  The
City would reluctantly give its permission occasionally to parades
within it's boundaries, but....  The writ extended within the City,
most duels occured outside its confines, where the writ of law had no
force.

	I can recommend 2 books, which are available by ILL, one of
        which is still in print:

	Aylward J. D.  The English Master of Arms from the Twelfth To the 
	Twentieth  Century. London: Routledge and K. Paul, 1956.

	Berry, Herbert; The noble science: a study and transcription
        of Sloane MS. 2530, papers of the Masters of Defence of London, Temp. H        enry VIII to 1590; Cranbury NJ, Univ of Del Press; 1991

ST


ERRATA:

The ban was 3 feet & 1 1/2 feet, often swords and ruffs met the cited
directions.

ST
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: C96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Alexander EICHENER)
Subject: Re: style/SCA
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:20:47 CET

In article <1992Dec18.202702.1@camins.camosun.bc.ca>
comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca writes:
 
>Broadswords were designed to kill men in armor, and since armor protects the
>man from being cut you can not kill him by chopping him up as you might do with
>an unarmored man. The broadsword kills by generating generating enought force
>to produce a hydrostatic shock wave that,much like a bullet, will break bones
>rupture internal organs and scramble brains.
 
Not that I would flame for flaming's sake - but that is almost certainly
wrong. Tell me, what strange kind of ideas do you have about hydrostatic
shocks? These require high-velocity bullets (over 2000 fps) and a liquid-
filled body cavern. (Follow-ups to alt.ballistics.terminal or rec.guns)
   As far as the original broadswords' purpose be concerned: I always
maintained the idea that they were to be used against pole-arms formations.
Anyone out there volunteering to elucidate me?
 
Greetings,
Alexander Eichener <c96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover)
Subject: Re: A few questions and observations
Organization: nope
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:30:03 GMT

In article <8768.18804@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM> jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman) writes:
...
>If a mugger attacks you while you are carrying a claymore,
>which is usually slung across your back for ease in carrying,
>you probably won't have time to DRAW it.  You definitely won't
>have space to swing it, or the time, even if you have it
>drawn.

All depends on circumstance, of course.  But should an urban
assailant give me any sort chance to draw a sword, most likely I
would hit him with the pommel, possibly before the tip cleared
the scabbard.

>  But then, as my sensei would say, it's the "reach" of
>a weapon that determines what works.  A claymore is, by no
>one's definitions, a "city" weapon or a personal defense
>weapon.  Trust me on this.  (According to my sensei, a pencil
>is better defense against a switchblade, than, say, a sword.
>It's how close you have to defend, that "reach" thing.)
>
An ex roommate of mine was fond of joking about how the pen is
mightier than the sword, while gesticulating with his fountain
pen.

Ink in the eyes might buy you some time.

Actually, a buddy of mine was challenged to a bout of epee by one
of the younger, more braindead members of the club.  For some
reason, Colin elected to use a pencil he happened to be holding.
It wasn't as bad as a tictactoe board on the challenger's jacket,
but it could have been.

Maestro Collins was ROFL.  Literally.

>On the other hand, the scimectar (sp?) a friend of mine kept
>by the bed sure scared the crap out of the guy who had broken
>in and was coming at her.  He left in a BIG hurry, about the
>time she raised it over her head and yelled.  But then, she
>was a broke college student with nothing to lose (except her
>virtue).

Another friend of mine used to carry a machete in his car, but
found it to be an attractive nuisance.  He switched to a large
ballpeen hammer, and found it quite as effective.  Actually,
moreso, since the hammer could safely be grasped all along its
length.


-- 
David Kassover             "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover	          sharp weapons and dull judges."
kassover@aule-tek.com                   F. Collins
kassover@ra.crd.ge.com
From: root@ap.cl.msu.edu (Root of all evil)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Cleaning the uncleanable:
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:08:43 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: ap.cl.msu.edu

In article <1gjfv9INN70v@smurf.sti.com> alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.060227.27571@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, scasterg@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stuart M Castergine) writes:
>] Anybody have any suggestions for keeping blades from rusting? I wipe
>] mine down, but I am loath to oil them, because I am afraid of what the
>] oil will do to the glue on the wire -- I have enough problems with
>] wires lifting out as it is. I am also worried that oil will get all
>] over my nice fencing whites or will get in and gum up my tip.
>] 
>
>Two suggestions: (deleted)
>
>
>Personally, I'd use the silicone spray - or just light oil.  Believe it
>or not, many of my blades - particularly ones I might be eating off -
>get wiped with olive oil.  The thing to remember here is that if you
>can see the oil on the surface of the steel, then you used too much oil.
>    ......................................................................
>    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man

Personally, I've found great success with organic oils such as olive oil, or
RAW linseed oil.  It's important to avoid oils based on mineral spirits, as 
the added chemical components can cause odd blemishes and discoloration of
the blade surface.  Use the oil very sparingly, and spread with a clean, soft
cloth, spreading out each drop over the widest surface area possible before 
adding more oil.  Leave the oiled blades to the open air for a few hours 
before stuffing them back in your bag.  I've used this on blades I've stored 
for several months, and seen nary a trace of rust on them afterward...

John A. Resotko
freeman@umcc.ais.org   or   adp89@msu.edu
MSU Varsity Fencing Team: '84 - '87
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Language for fencing
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 18:15:17 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

Posted for Steve Hick:

Post this please in fencing.


While searching the online catalogs I discovered:

 AUTHOR          Miller, Ronald C.
TITLE           The development of a coded symbolic language for the analysis
                 and teaching of fencing / by Ronald C. Miller.
PUBLICATION     1976.

LOCATION        Mugar Library
CALL NUMBER     GV1143.4 .M5 1976aM


Steve
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Single Stick
Date: 3 Jan 93 08:42:30 GMT
Organization: Camosun College

(stuff removed) 
> Oh, it is not silly, not silly at all. In the Filipino martial arts
> {arnis|escrima|kali|fraile|et bloody cetera}  the use of two weapons is
> an integral part of training and combat. In fact, there are whole styles
> based on the use of {long stick|sword} and {short stick|dagger} called
> spada y daga and the use of two long weapons (sinawali - to weave). As a
> component of training it is invaluable. Sinawali teaches coordination and
> ambidexterity and forms the basis for empty-hand trapping. As a style of
> fighting it is formidable. If you read old fencing manuals or see old
> pictures of people fighting with swords in Europe the combatants will, more
> often than not, each have two weapons, sword and dagger, cloak, mail glove,
> lantern, etc. Come to think of it, Filipino sword-and-shield technique is
> based on sinawali.
> 
> Any other Kalisadors out there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not call myself a Kalisador, but last October I was luckly enougth to
take a half day workshop put on by Remy Presas. I found it to be fasinating!

We worked with two stick, one stick and open hand. The disarms are great and
the attackes were fun. I was struck by the simularity between some of the joint
locks and those of Aikido and have wondered if there were any connections.

I hope that I will have a chance to learn more about it. So if anyone wants to
talk about Filipino weapon techniques I would be more then willing to listen
and learn.

           Mackenzie
From: lmds1@access.digex.com (Andrew Van Etten)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Left vs Right Handness
Date: 29 Dec 1992 11:02:34 GMT
Organization: Logicon, Incorporated : Arlington, Virginia
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1992Dec22.143349.28717@rock.concert.net> penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS) writes:
>Maybe I should have used the term "les culottes" instead and avoided
>any UK/US/wherever language confusion.  I'd only alienate those
>unfamiliar with French then.  Well, you can't say I didn't try.  

For those of us who are familiar with French, doesn't 'cullottes' mean 
underwear (female or otherwise)???


					Andy Van Etten
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: dermoudy@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Julian Dermoudy)
Subject: Re: :ping-pong:
Reply-To: J.R.Dermoudy@cs.utas.edu.au
Organization: University of Tasmania, at Hobart.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:15:02 GMT

In <1992Dec19.210935.2666@sq.sq.com> bud@sq.sq.com (Bud Greasley) writes:

>In article <1992Dec18.175342.24303@eos.arc.nasa.gov> kyrsten@eos.arc.nasa.gov
>(Kyrsten Swazey) writes:
>>I realize this is a tad off from fencing topics, but does anyone know
>>where the term "ping-pong" came from?  Is it slang, or is it the proper
>>name for the game?!  Is this an original American name, or does it have
>>some other origin? 
>
>As far as I know, "ping-pong" is a copyrighted name, like kleenex, xerox, etc.
>I thought it was held by Milton Bradley, Parker Bros, or some such company.
>"Table tennis" is the name used to describe the sport internationally.
>
>The term "windsurfing" has recently started to win out over "boardsailing", 
>with the demise of the "Windsurfer" company.

As much as I don't wish to contribute to non-fencing traffic I can't help
putting in my $A0.02

Here in Australia (at least with everyone I know) Ping Pong is a distinct game
from Table Tennis - in the same way Snooker is distinct from Billiards - same
equipment, different rules.  My understanding is that in Ping Pong, the ball
must bounce on the hitter's side of the table before passing over the net and
bouncing on the oponent's side.  Quite alot harder IMHO.  Also a trifle slower.

That's the essential difference I believe.  And now, back to the fencing...

						-Julian

--
  Julian Dermoudy			AARNet: J.R.Dermoudy@cs.utas.edu.au
  Department of Computer Science,	'Phone: +61 02 202962
  University of Tasmania,		Fax   : +61 02 202913
                GPO Box 252C Hobart, Tasmania, AUSTRALIA, 7001.