From: rajesh@juniper (Rajesh Raman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Moslems
Date: 1 Jan 1993 23:25:14 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juniper.wpi.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu wrote:
: 
: 1)israel/palestine - here is some thing irfan, have you heard of the philosophy
: of zionism? it is like this, the jew have to have the land of palestine and
: everyone else can just fuck off. that is the gist of it. there was this
: terrorist organization called irgun and another called stern-gang which loved
: to kill palestinian women and children and force them out of there homes. the
: possibility of disobedience was death. the leader of irgun was a son of a bitch
: by the name of menachem begin, do you know who he was? he was the prime
: minister of israel. he was responsible for killing many women and children, and

  Zafarbhai, people like that have headed govts all over the world.

: old men as well. the palestinian trouble is like this. the jews stole land
: away from the palestinians through an illegitimate agreement known as the
: balfour declaration which stated that the brits have the right to give the land
: to the jews. (strange because the brits were not even in control of the land
: in the first place). so the struggle has been for people who have been kicked

  I guess they were 'cos the wouldn't have been able to do what they did
  if they weren't.

: out of house and home to get there homes back or at least stop being treated
: like dogs, kind of like the way blacks are treated in this country and the way
: kurds are treated in your secular country. get it irfan?

  Correct.

: 3) german ethnic problem, irfan you are citing contradictory evidence to
: support your claim. the turks are the victims of the german racism. the turks
: are not the aggressors, in fact many of them live in fear for their lives. is
: it just me or do i get teh feeling that you don't know what you are talking
: about?

  Correct again.

: 4)bosnian problem. now you are really off the wall. the bosnians never did
: anything to provoke an attack. they are the ones being killed. serbian women
: are not being raped. and bosnian men are not perpetrating ethnic cleansing.
: muslims are not the aggressors in this situation either.

  Well both sides are doing it. Now don't tell me that it was the
  Serbians who started it. You believe only what you want to believe.
  There might have been a few incidents of rapes but I donot believe
  the blown-out-of-proportion stuff you get to hear. Remember during the
  Gulf War we had that testimony by Nayeerah (the daughter of the
  Kuwaiti Ambassador to the US). Now we know what was behind all that. 
  But at the time of the testimony personal accounts like that had
  a profound effect on the American psyche. 

: 5) iraq/kuwait you are again citing a non-example. saddam has no interest in
: islam, neither does the emir of kuwait, and the majority of the kuwaitis are
: not religious at all. however saddam is not far off in his claim for kuwait, it
: used to be a part of iraq. now you must ask yourself. the muslim people of iraq
: do not like this guy. let us say that a large minority of iraqis are religious.
: now if the religion of islam says do not support dictators (i am making this
: assumption solely on the basis that iraqis do not like saddam, i am not using
: my knowledge of islam in this case) then saddams being in power is actually a
: violation of islamic principles, therefore this has nothing to do with islam.
: once again you cite a non-example. also he belongs to the baath party, which
: is secular in its charter.

  The point that was made wasn't that Saddam was interested in Islam but
  that he is a Muslim. Now you will tell me that he cannot be a Muslim
  if he perpetrates evil. Well then all people who perpetrate war
  contribute to perpetrating evil. When you call a crusade to spread
  a religion doesn't that perpetrate evil? And how can you say that
  the majority of the Kuwaitis are not religious ? If Saddam can
  claim Kuwait why can't India claim Pakistan ?

: 6)iran/iraq same reason. the issue of the govt of iran is complex. do not
: believe everything you read in the papers or see on the telly. you don't
: believe everything you see about turkey do you? well the same applies for iran.
: i don't agree with everything iran does, but as far as being a terrorist state,
: forget it.

  I don't understand what is so complex about the govt of Iran that is
  not about, say, the govt of the USA or the govt of India ? Every country
  has its uniqueness.

: 8)indian temple. our mosque was destroyed by hindus because of a fiction. the
: bjp has a list of other mosques it is going to destroy if it gets a chance to
: because other "gods" were "born" on those cites. as for the ongoing
: muslim/hindu conflicts, manoj talk to a woman named fazila dosani, she is a
: student at uc, she and her family had to leave india because of some problems.
: go find out.

  Don't cite individual examples like that. If a Hindu happened to
  harm Fazila or her family that doesn't mean that Hinduism is bad.
  I could give you an entire list of people who had to leave Kashmir 
  or Pakistan because of what you call "problems". But that wouldn't 
  prove any point.

  Well you deny that Babur ever razed a temple to the ground and built a
  mosque in its place. I can't do anything about that.

: 10)malay/chinese. this is an example where you are kind of right. i say kind of
: because it has nothing to do with religion but race. the malays, though they
: are a majority muslim will discriminate against chinese muslims as well as
: chinese non-muslims. they will favor malay non-muslims over chinese muslims.
: nothing to do with religion.

  When I used to study in Madras I knew so many Hindu Malaysians who had
  to come to India because they were discriminated against when it came
  to admissions to professional colleges. But converts to Islam of
  Indian origin had a great time. I remember my friends telling me that
  felt humiliated in having to live as "second-class" citizens in
  Malaysia. But there is no way I can find out except by living there
  myself. That's why I say that we should take a person for what he/she
  is and not bring his/her religion into things.

: 11)the state of somalia today can be rightly blamed on the us government,...

  The sooner we realise that the US is a very big sponsor of terrorism
  the better. It happens all over the world. It was Pakistan's bosom
  friend until yesterday and see what's happening now .

: >	Almost every conceivable problem in the world is caused by moslems.
: 
: WRONG!
: >Also, undoubtably all the major barbaric regimes in the world are run by
: >Moslems ( Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait, Yemen, Iran, Pakistan just to name a few)
: WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Muslim govts are only a few. the real terrorist govt is
: the united states. alexander the great once was sailing on his ship and he
: caught a pirate. he capture the pirate and asked him, "why do you terrorize the 
: seas?" the pirate replied, "why do you terrorize the world?" do you get it?

  Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are ruled by self-seeking dynasties. Whether
  they are Hindu or Muslim they deserve to be condemned. The less said
  about Saddam Hussain the better. In Iran is a classic example of a
  state which is governed accordingly "Islamic principles". Ostensibly,
  Islam does justify the killing of people who raise their voice against
  it. That is what is unpalatable to me. If you cannot convince someone
  about your own strong points you should not  go out and intimidate him 
  into submission. 

  The point you seem to have missed is that the pirate could not justify
  himself by saying that. Both were wrong. I think that good govt is not
  muslim or hindu or christian but just good govt. But Muslims have
  shown a tendency towards intolerance (mind you it is not just one
  little streak of intolerance that I am talking about). And I am not 
  saying that Islam is intolerant. A few questions now.

  1. If you are a Muslim can you leave the fold ? 
  2. If a person speaks ill of you but doesn't do you any physical harm
     and you are a Muslim are you authorised to do him physical harm ?
  3. Can you voice your dissent against what an ulema says ?

: it makes me wonder how much of the television you have been watching man you
: call yourself a muslim yet you don't even have half of an idea about what the
: hell is going on in the muslim world or the recent history of the muslims. you
: cited examples that show the opposite of wht you were trying to prove in the
: first place. where the hell have you been living, in a cave?! shame on you!
: you ignorant! we muslims do not need your kind! do not stab your brothers and
: sisters in the back by showing lies. if you want to show how bad islam is show
: something that truly comes from islam and then we can discuss. i can not tell
: you how angry i am with you. allah please control my anger and please forgive
: you.

  Zafarbhai don't get that angry with him. He seems to have been brought 
  up on news reports from Western media. It's not his fault that he
  has the views that he has. I was brought up on Indian, and to some
  extent western, news reports. I hope you will not get angry with me.
  You see it's not my fault. It so happened that I was brought up in
  India.
: 
: salam alaikum

  valeikum salaam! ( I hope I got it right :-)

--

Rajesh Raman

--