From: mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson)
Subject: Re: Roe v. Wade and abortion (was Re: Another good reason to vote for Bush
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:11:40 CDT

In article <25019@oasys.dt.navy.mil> bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense) writes:
>In talk.abortion, sa114984@longs.lance.colostate.edu (Steven Arnold) writes:
[massive deletia]
>
>>        A tumor is not a living member of the human species.  Given nutrition,
>>tumor will never develop into a mature human being.  Give it up, Ron.  A tumor
>>and an unborn child are not interchangeable.  Or are you suggesting that if a
>>tumor were put in the womb, it would develop into a person, just like you or me
>>No?  I thought not.
>
>You thought incorrectly. That is exactly what I'm saying. I'll look
>for the source, as mentioned it above, and post it. (or, if someone
>has it, go ahead and post, as it will take me a few days.)
>

Happy to oblige.

___________________________________________________________________________

From: bmc@mayo.edu (Bruce Cameron)
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: About those UnBornThings
Date: 9 Jun 92 22:20:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: bmw.1992Jun9.222059.11231
edu> <cd!lqbk.ray@netcom.com> <1992Jun5.175700.14544@mcs.gvsu.edu>
Reply-To: bmc@mayo.edu
Organization: Mayo Biomedical Imaging Resource

In article <1992Jun5.175700.14544@mcs.gvsu.edu>, orr@turing.mcs.gvsu.edu (Wes Orr {Ac
ademic Computing}) writes:

   ...lines deleted...

|> In answer to
|> your question any time one human sperm cell and one human egg cell
|> merge they are a living human being, biologically speaking.  They
|> have no genetic ability to become anything else.
|>

Well perhaps, then again perhaps not.

There is no doubt that the cell(s) are living, and biologically
human, but as for becoming something else ...

Cancer Cells vs. Embryonic cells

        Observation:
             cancer cells spread in a manner resembling embryonic cell
             migrations.
                     Barbera et al.-- demonstrated specific adhesive
                     recognition may control homing of optic nerves
                     from retina to optic tectum
                     Nicolson et al.-- demonstrated that cells from primary
                     tumors for secondary tumors at sites where those cells
                     have greatest adhesion.

                     have greatest adhesion.

        Question:
              do we have embryo-like tumors or tumor-like Embryos?
                   Mintz et al.--isolated teratoma cells, injected the
                   cells into early blastocysts (mice). The blasocysts
                   were allowed to implant into the uteri of other
                   female mice (different genotype from cancer donor).
                   embryos developed into tumor free adults, but with
                   cells of both genotypes.

                    also observed:
                        (mouse)teratomas develop in clusters that
                         resemble (mouse) embryos & will differentiate
                         into the embryonic tissue types if in a
                         suitable environment.

                         normal (mouse) embryos will form teratomas if
                         implanted in the testes.

Now, if cancer cells can develop as an embryo does if placed in a
receptive uterus (suitable environment) and an embryo can develop
as a cancer if placed in an unsuitable environment, then are you
sure that an embryo can't change form?

sources:


        Barbera et al., Adhesive Recognition and Retinotectal Specificity.,
        Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci. U.S., 70:2482-2486

        Faber J.J., and Thornburg K. L., Placental Physiology, Raven Press,
        New York, 1983

        Mintz, B., Clonal Basis of Mammalian Differentiation., Symp. Soc. Exp.
        Bio., 25:345-369

        Nicolson, G. L. et al, Transmembrane Control of the Receptors
        on Normal and Tumor Cells. II. Surface Changes Associated with
        Transformation and Malignancy. Biochem. Biophys. Acta 458:1-72

        Nicolson, G. L., Cell and Tissue Interactions Leading to Malignant
        Tumor Spread., Amer. Zool. 18:71-80


--
--Bruce

"Truth is ultimately a philosophical concept,...,
 and standards of truth are adequate for practical
 purposes if they are substantially more reliable
 then the system undergoing evaluation"
                                C. E. Metz
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___________________________________________________________________________

muriel
standard disclaimer