From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Is Japan crowded?
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:13:44 GMT

In article <BzA3LC.4Ho@ncifcrf.gov> masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.165703.810@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>In article <Bz2zAs.3qs@ncifcrf.gov> masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec9.162152.25329@acuson.com> miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:

Boy, there are a lot af attributions here! Much deleted.

>       The reason why I mentioned it was that since Goldman-san was          
>trying to compare people in N.J. (not US), who are living in a crowded 
>situation seemingly comparable to that of Japan but are not paranoid, with 
>Japanese. I agree that there are less crowded areas in Japan. However, in 
>this comparison, these areas would be comparable to the "less crowded areas
>in N.J." The point that I wanted to make was that there are no other areas
>for Japanese to look at beyond Japan itself while people in N.J.
>have them. Thus, I assumed that this difference has some psychological
>effect that makes Japanese more paranoid than people in N.J. 

I disagree. Hokkaido is not crowded, and has a lot of arable land. If people in
NJ can look beyond N.J., people in (eg) Tokyo can look beyond Tokyo. Whether
they do or not is another matter, but IF there can be a 'psychological effect'
on people from Jersey, then the there could be the same effect for people in
Tokyo.

>>>>>>	Country		Pop. Density/(Square Mile)
>>>>>>	(State)
>>>>>>	-------		-----------
>>>>>>	Bangladesh	1,740		/* very flat, very rich farmland */
>>>>>>	Taiwan		1,347		/* middle-class urban refugee camp */
>>>>>>	Netherlands	1,095		/* BOTH of the above */
>>>>>	...
>>>>>>	Japan		  822  <----	/* but what about just Honshu? */
>
>>>>	Why not look at just New Jersey, or "just" the Boston-NY-DC strip
>>>>	along the US east coast.
>
>>>    Once again, how valid is the comparison between the US and Japan?
>
>>I believe this is comparing Japan to the rest of the world.
>
>    As I understand it from his words, he suggested that we look at
>just N.J. or "just" the Boston-NY-DC strip. I don't think that these
>areas are "the rest of the world."

No, he responded to someone else's question "/* but what about just Honshu? */";
the comments are not Mr Goldman's, and his "just" question is in response to
someone limiting the consideration of Japan's crowds to the main island. Ie,
if you limit consideration of crowds in Japan to a smaller area, why not limit
consideration of crowds in the US to a smaller area. 

>>>>       Why not look at only the non-farmed
>>>>	areas of Holland.
>
>>>    I've never been to Holland. I don't know many Dutch people, either. Maybe,
>>>they are more paranoid than Japanese?
>
>>But how can this be? If the REASON the Japanese are so friendly is BECAUSE 
>>of its crowdedness, then the Dutch should be even friendlier, should they not?
>
>    Since I have never tried to assert that Japanese are friendly BECAUSE
>of Japan's crowdedness, I am not the best person to answer this question.

This is, I believe, the crux of the whole thread. Mr Goldman is stating that
the common explanation for certain aspects of Japanese behavior is that
"because Japan is crowded, it is/Japanese are (your favorite stereotype here)"
and that he believes this to be invalid.

>      I was pointing out that his mentioning that "Japanese love being
>different" is a generalization. This statement was in his recent
>posting but not in his original article.

It is a generalization. However, at least with regard to the amount of press,
books, etc, on the general topic of "Why Japanese are different from X", where
X is another group of people, avialable in Japanese bookstores when I was
there, it is not without foundation. Similarly, many "info TV shows" have this
sort of theme in Japan.

>>  Some of the ridiculous statements I've heard or read:
>>
>>	"Japanese are so quiet and polite because they live on a crowded
>>	 island and have to be more sensitive to others."
>>
>>	"Land costs so much in Japan because it is so crowded."
>>
>>	"Japanese are so successful because they live in such a crowded
>>	 country so they have to work harder for everything."
>
>   I wonder if these statements are made by Japanese or rather by 
>non-Japanese because other than the second one regarding the land costs,
>I've never heard Japanese around me making these reasoning. 

Personally, I heard them from Japanese instructors here in the US, I heard them
in Japan from Japanese, I hear them from American Japan "experts", etc. In 
addition, I've heard such things as "Japan is so concensus-oriented because it
is so crowded", "Japanese are so similar because Japan is so crowded", ad
nauseum. However, in Mr Goldman's case, I believe he was addressing the 
general claim itself (repeated by Japanese and non-Japanese alike).

>>  While no one in this group is so foolish as to believe such nonsense, I
>>  thought you might be interested in how crowded Japan is compared to 
>>  various parts of the world.
>
>   I'm afraid that his statistical comparison of crowdedness ended up leading
>other netters to the misunderstanding of his point.

Well, perhaps I am simply odd, but I thought that it was supposed to be 
data supporting his point that the crowdedness in Japan is not the reason
for any unique characteristics.

>>  I also wish to point out that the US is an extremely unusual country, and
>>  that Japan is more representative of modern industrial nations than is the
>>  US.  Most Americans would benefit from taking the view that in contrasting 
>>  Japan with the US, they are primarily demonstrating the extreme weirdness
>>  of the US, not of Japan.
>  
>   This statement made me think that we cannot make a valid conclusion
>regarding the effects of crowdedness in Japan from the comparison 
>between the US and Japan.

Uh, I think the point of this is that it is the *US* which is unique (or odd,
if you prefer) with regard to population density, and that Japan is closer
to the norm for the industrialized world. In that sense, if we try to explain
Japanese behavior as a consequence of "It is so crowded", then we (as Americans)
are forgetting that (eg) Europe is also more crowded than the US, yet we do 
not hear similar "explanations" of European behavior.

>>	So why does land cost so much in Japan ?  Mostly speculation.  Too
>>	many yen, very low interest rates (partly to support the dollar).
>>	Like all speculation bubbles, this one is bursting too, and a lot
>>	of banks are being merged into bigger ones because of their
>>	depreciating real estate and stock holdings, while a lot of real
>>	estate companies are going bankrupt.  (Sound familiar Americans ?)

>   Another factor that should be considered is probably a balance between
>demand and supply (which is a principle of economy?). If there are a
>large number of potential buyers for a limited amount of merchandise,
>price would go up to a level where they are equilibrated. (Well, the
>price actually went up higher than the equilibrium. Goldman-san's
>explanation might be applicable to that oversurge.)

Uh, speculation *IS* a demand. And I believe what you mean is that the prices
went higher than sustainable (ie, reasonable) value, which again is what Mr 
Goldman was addressing, I believe.

>>	So why is Japan so successful ?
>
>   I really cannot find any simple answer to this question (You don't
>expect me to anyway, do you? 8-)). Probably, most of the points that 
>Goldman-san mentioned are valid. If I become rather diplomatic as
>UNusual, I'd also point out that after WWII, the Japanese economy and 
>industry were jump-started by the aid from the US and other countries
>and probably by the Korean War. 
>
>.....
>>	Japan
>>	has had an incredibly fast move from the farm (1955: 42% in
>>	agricultural production, 1962: 29%, vs the US at 4%, and 3%,
>>	respectively) and it would be a cause of mass unemployment and
>>	social dislocation if Japan's national productivity were at US
>>	and German levels.
>	
>    Being an economics geek, I cannot get the point of this analysis.
>Would anyone enlighten me?

I believe the point of this was a comparison of "Japanese success/effeciency"
with that of the other 2 world economic giants. It was tangetial (at best) to
his main point.

>    Finally, I still believe that Japan's crowdedness is at least one
>of the reasons for Japanese's paranoia. A patient (or an ex-patient 8-))
>knows the best ...?

It may contribute, but I believe there are far more important factors to 
consider; the biggest, IMHO, is that Japan has in fact, very little diplomatic
experience. But we'll leave that for another thread.
Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - Oh come on! You didn't think I was serious, did you?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan