From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Humanism (personal experience)
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:29:57 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1go5l7INNrr4@hpsdl102.sdd.hp.com> pauld@sdd.hp.com (Paul Dillinger) writes:
>In article  <1992Dec07.231528.32107@watson.ibm.com>,
>             strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>>
>> Of course there is no such passage.  Even if you believed
>> there were such a passage, it wouldn't yield the Messianic
>> position, which is, as far as I can tell, 100% identical
>> to the Christian position --- namely that,
>> (1) t'shuvah is not required
>> (2) belief in the God-hood of the human being who died is required
>>
>> Do you agree that (1) and (2) are the Messianic position?
>> And that they are also the Christian position?
\\\\\\\\\

(1) The very first teaching of John the Baptist, forerunner of Jesus
(in an interesting medieval metaphor, called the morning star which
precedes the dawn of Christ, called the rising sun of righteousness
in the Gospel) - John preached "repentance"  - that was his message.
And - if you are wont to read the Gospels - that was the first message
preached by Jesus - "repentance" (metanoia means "to turn around" from
life of sin to life with God) and, moreover, that with his coming,
"the kingdom of God (heaven)" was become among them.

So you are very mistaken about (1) - since you haven't bothered to read
the Gospels, even cursorily (except what little you learned about it
at Harvard and on TV or family disputes ;-)

(2) I don't think Christians are *required* to believe that Jesus is
God, or divine - in the sense that their salvation or judgment depends
on the belief. The last judgment is not about gnosis - but about whether
we faithfully live as Jesus did, caring for those who suffer because
of the neglect of the world. I'm sure you must have read about
"the last Judgment" of the Gospel.

The NT Greek word for "believe" does not mean intellectual affirmation-
as it ordinarily means in modern English - it means "to believe in
actuality" (ie motivating way of life and action). It does not invite
hypocrisy.

There is an ancient formula of profession of faith - called the Nicene
and Apostles' creeds, nearly 16 centuries old. Most Christians, whether
Protestant or Catholic, or Messianic Jews presumably, are agreed upon
these, at every point. (The schism of the Eastern Church concerned
dispute on one minor point - whether the Spirit of God proceeded from the
Father or from both the Father and the Son. But today no one denies
Christian fellowship because of this. I might add that there is nothing
in the Nicence Creed that Protestant critics of Catholicism would disagree
with; moreover, this is the only profession of faith made in the
Catholic Church, and at every Mass, and at the time of being confirmed.
(There is a repudiation of Satan, which is very ancient, going back to
the second century, I believe.).

The Nicene Creed does declare that Christ is "God from God, Light from
Light, true God from true God, one in being with the Father, begotten
and not made ..." - each phrase having a traditional meaning.

But professing this will not save anyone from their sins. It is clear 
that any Christian surely will intellectually believe that Jesus is 
uniquely "the Son of God," whatever their understanding of this.
Newsgroups: alt.messianic