From: radinsky@spot.Colorado.EDU (Wayne Radinsky)
Subject: Re: prophesies
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:53:55 GMT

eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun) writes:
>:>radinsky@spot.Colorado.EDU (Wayne Radinsky) writes:
>:>: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun) writes:
> 
>: 
>:> Christianity seems to have been spawned out of anger. 
>:> "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother and wife and
>:> children and brethren and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be
>:> my disciple" [Luke 13,v.26]
>: 
>: This is usually taken to mean Jesus should be =more important= than anyone
>: else in your life.  Although that is what it says... maybe Christians
>: should take this verse more seriously :-).
> 
> See? Even you can interpret and read into something anything you >want< to
> hear or >want< to mean. But since conviniantly the original author is not
> there you really don't know, now do you?

I was just giving the "textbook" interpretation of that verse.  No, I
don't really know.  Pretty soon, there will be no point in writing
because you'll know everything I'm going to say before I say it.

Maybe everybody is supposed to hate their parents and their kids and
their siblings, and love their neighbors.  What an interesting world
that would be...

I tried to look up the verse to see what the context was, but your
reference is wrong.  Where is this verse, really?

>>>: Actually what's interesting about Jesus isn't his homosexuality, it's
>: his =asexuality=.  It seems to me like he personally had no interest in
>: sex whatsoever.<<
> 
> Ohhh? Then what about:
> 
> "For the time past of >our< life may suffice us to have wrought the will of
> the Gentiles, when >we< walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine,
> revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:"
> [1 Peter,4 v.3]

He doesn't say "we", he says "you".  "Living as =you= have done in
shameless, insolent wantonness, in lustful desires ..."  (at least that's
how two different translations of mine state it).

> You can virtually take >any< text and find some "Hidden" esoteric meaning in
> it.

Yeah, kind of like you are, by quoting this verse...  If you read the
surrounding verses, say 1-6, you'd see Peter couldn't possibly be
talking about homosexual activities with Jesus, even if your "our, we"
translation was correct.

> Why was John the "divine"? ;-) Come, come now. If you are an idolatrer of
> books, fine! But don't expect everyone else to be as well.

Do I idolize books?

> Take the newspaper and read the titles of the double features playing in
> a movie house as if it were a sentence. Suddenly it's awsome! Magic words
> written by the hand of some Typo God! "Candyman" "passanger 57" "Last of the
> Mohicans"

Okay, the Candyman was the 57th passenger and the last of the Mohicans...
Wow, deep meaning there!

> What does this mean?? Wow! ......really. Words, are words. If there is no
> one there to speak them then anyone can make them become whatever they want.

For those of you who didn't understand, he just said the earth is a moebius
strip.

Actually, you have a good point. It's much easier to twist a person's
words when they're not around to explain themselves.  Unfortuantely this
applies to everyone in the Bible.  (Well, unless you believe the New Age
trace mediums!)

> The only difference, perhaps was that there were no grown up little neurotic
> that sued him for molestation as it is now the fad to do to Catholic
> priests. But if there had been, do you think the church would have allowed
> that to be detected?....

The answer is mu, because religious leaders never do anything wrong.

> In this life, there are certaion realities. You cannot ignore that you are
> physical, and have emotions of many kinds.  dead carpenter is not
> going to change that any more than a book of mythology from the time of
> Tiberius.

Perhaps not, but you know what peaple say: you can visit Mohammud's grave.

(Actually, I wouldn't mind being able to cure blindness, heal the sick,
raise people from the dead, raise myself from the dead...  The Bible at
least sugests its possible.)

> Was your mesiah gay? Most probably. 

Because

> Your mesiah had no women apostles.

Fine, but it's your responsibility to show us he was gay, not mine (or
anybody else's) responsibility to show he wasn't.

>:> There is certainly no *need* for you to kill yourself. Life is an
>:> exciting, scintillating experience. The only problem is that you have
>:> to "come out" of your shell.
>: 
>: That's absolutely right.  That's what Christianity's all about, because you
>: get forgiven, and then you're free from the guilt that chains you up,
>: right?<<
> 
> No. The examples of "martyrdom, a wreathing mutilated, crucified beaten
> carpenter, neurotic saintly deifications" do not unchain you from guilt or
> anything else. 

Maybe not, but that's how it's =supposed= to work, I was saying.  By
setting you free to do whatever bad things you want, paradoxically, you
won't want to do them any more.  It's easier to show the reverse, i.e.
the harder you try to force yourself =not= to do something, the more
you'll wind up doing it anyway.  A very interesting paradox, actually.

(Don't think about white elephants.  Force all those white elephants out of
your head.  Close your eyes and try =really= hard not to think about
white elephants).

> Prometheus >is< a good example of preserverance but not the austerity of the
> "shakers" which in the end result in nihilsm.
> The "Shakers" >were< Christians.

Who are the shakers, and how do they fit into all this?  (You're going to
make me go to the library to read up on some obscure sect, aren't you).

> So what is their posterity, a chair?

Boy, this reminds me of those jokes that go:  There was a mouse and an
elephant on an airplane.  The mouse said to the elephant, "Pardon me,
do you have the time?"  The elephant said, "What do I look like, a
fish?"  (There's a whole set of these jokes, and they all end with,
"What do I look like, a fish?".)

>>>: You need to become free to be yourself.  I definitely agree with you
>: there.<<
> 
> Good! But to love life you have to accept it as it is. You cannot shame the
> creations of what you worship by perverting it to an imaginative ideology
> that contradicts "nature" itself.
> 
> You do not "need" a book to tell you the wonders of the universe.

No, but the overwhelming evidence (i.e. poverty, racism, $$ corruption,
blah blah blah) is that people in this world have yet to grasp the
wonders of the universe.

Of course, you are the sole exception...

> You cannot expect to live this life preoccupied by the next

You can if you believe what you do now affects the next.  (Whether you
believe in an afterlife doesn't have anything to do with whether there
=is= one, but can definitely affect the way you live).

> or the colorful imaginative past.

Not by the past, but the meaning of, the lessons to be learned from the
past.

> God, if God exists in its perfection needs nothing and
> desires nothing.

Quite true.  That's how love always is.  Nobody is going to love you
until you don't need their love anymore.  Perhaps this is why we have
no excuse for loving God.

> God mugga wugga God mugga wugga God mugga wugga God mugga wugga God mugga
> wugga God mugga wugga God mugga wugga God mugga wugga God mugga wugga God
> mugga wugga God mugga wugga God mugga wugga God mugga wugga God mugga wugga

If these ramblings have a point, it flew right by me.

> Perhaps it is best understood by the philosophical statement: "I know,
> therefore I AM."

I know not, therefore, I am not...?

> >>:> If we were to meet, I could open doors that you never dreamt
>:> existed! And in the end you'll look back only to see that the prophets
>:> and messiahs were no more than a figment no less than a pillar of salt
>:> could define.  ;-)
>:
>: Hmmm... I'm curious what this could be about!  (Don't come back and
>: tell us about any bad trips!!)<<
> 
> Are you really curious?

Yes, I'm really curious!

> Trust me ;-), 

I don't trust you.

> there are certainly >no< bad trips
> where this road leads as there is no need to turn back and feel guilt.
> If you really know what you are doing, you can't have any regrets, and with
> a measure of balance, you cannot overdose to expect a "bad trip".;-)
> 
>>>:> I doubt that! For you still have that gnawing desire within you...;-)
>:> "To have a need, and to deny it is to create desire.....
>:> To have desire and to supress it, it to create neurosis....."
>: 
>: Or perhaps it is =you= who has that gnawing desire within you...  What
>: is it you desire?  What do you =really= want out of life?  (That's the
>: Ultimate Question, isn't it?)<<
>
> Does it really seem that I am frustrated??

Frustrated?  Maybe, maybe not.  Bitter?  Absolutely.

> Hmmmmn? I doubt that. Amused,
> yes. What do I really want out of life? More! There is no secret. There is
> no frustration. There is no problem. I am satisfied and indifferent enough
> to accept change. And that change will always guarantee, more.
 
>>>:> The blind cannot lead the blind, less they kill themselves in their own
>:> stumbling... before you can hope to find so comfortable a companion, perhaps
>:> it is you who should eat of that fruit of knowledge for in the days you eat
>:> of that fruit, and its reality, you may be as godssssssss...
>: 
>: Oh, Eshin-Fun, I'm bowing before you... not!
>: 
>: Wayne.<<
> 
> Oh, Wayne, you don't have to assume indelicate postures. Just open your
> eyes! yes.
> For it is said that the fruit if sweet can offer a harvest of delights.
> 
> I throw this "apple" before you, and if you are sincere, take it, and follow
> me but alas if you do not, keep the apple anyway....
> And ponder how long its beauty lastsssssss.

Oh, Eshin-Fun, you make it sound as if =you= know =the= secret of life,
the universe, and everything.  You think you've got the whole thing
figured out...

I will hear what you have to say... but I make no promise to follow you.
Call me insincere, but you are not God!

BTW You're very poetic.

>>>: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun) writes:
>:> Anyone can delude themselves to believe anything they want.
>: 
>: Wayne's corrolary: believing something does =not= make it so.
>: 
>: Wayne<<
> 
> Ustea da Jakitea= an old basque proverb
> 
> "To believe is not to know"
> 
> Maybe there's hope for you afterall Wayne. 

Hope? Heaven forbid! Not hope!!

Maybe there's hope for you too...

> Eshin-Fun

"What kind of Fun?"
"=Eshin= Fun!!"

Wayne (the Anxious Puppy)