HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcr@meaddata.com (Mary Ries)
Subject: Re: Do We Need a New newsgroup? (was Re: Those Nasty Fundamentalists)
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:14:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.174833.20461@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, rlt@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (r l taylor) writes:
|> 
|> If we were to propose a new group, how about soc.culture.christian?

Does anyone here read the culture groups?  What do they seem to focus on?
Do you think there would be challenges to basic christian beliefs there?

|> Of course, this overlaps a lot with the charter of soc.religion.christian
|> (I think).  But, as has been mentioned, that group seems to deal more
|> with theology than with the tangents.

I'm pretty sure that's why I avoid s.r.c... I don't care that much
about doctrine. Here, we barely ever bring up doctrine or
denomination, but its neat to see how much we bring up God's word.

|> I don't know...perhaps we should try to participate more in the groups
|> we already have.  Be the "salt" or the "leaven" or whatever... But where
|> does that leave threads like the Mike Warnke thing?

I do think "being the salt", etc. is a good suggestion, but I'm
thinking the type of new group that these r.m.c. tangents could
flourish in would be one where we share the same basic truths and
beliefs and where (as others have suggested) we counsel eachother on
how to apply those truths to real life situations.

|> So there's my initial thoughts.  Comments?  Other thoughts?  If we do
|> decide to call for a new group, though, let's do it "by the book" this
|> time.  Remember all the hassles we had creating this group?  I would hope
|> we wouldn't have to go through that again.

I wasn't here for all that!  What was the problem?  I would have no
problem taking on the task if there is enough interest, and I'm sure my
administrator would help me do it "by the (UseNet) book"... unless
someone else with experience in this volunteers? (fine by me, too, btw)

Meanwhile, I'm going to check with my administrator to see at what
point we should bring it to a "call for discussion" in the "new
newsgroup" newsgroup.

_______________________________________________________________________
Mary Ries            | Die, v.:                     | Software Engineer
mcr@meaddata.com     |    To stop sinning suddenly. | Mead Data Central
..uunet!meaddata!mcr |           -- Elbert Hubbard  | Dayton, Ohio
From: rhm@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bob Miller)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:43:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: CCM:  Ministry or Career? (was Re: Amy Grant's "Sexy" comment)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian

OK, I'll jump in on the "ministry vs. art" thing...

From alailima@eniac.seas.upenn.edu Fri Aug  7 08:02:45 1992

>...The CCM industry has been known to stifle creativity in the name of 
>ministry...

The CCM industry surely stifles creativity, but I would contend it has 
nothing to do with "ministry"... and everything to do woth "marketability" to
their generic "christian" audience. Its not the "industry" that is carrying on
the Amy Grant controversy here...tho they are probably listening |-}

From jpersons@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Aug  6 08:51:51 1992

>I get the impression that there is no role for art in ministry,
>though I don't think you really believe that (I'm guessing).  I
>think that *ministers* can effectively use art -- especially music, 
>but other art as well -- in their ministry.  It is  unlikely 
>that such art will be as good as art that is produced by
>these same people acting as *artists*.  But that's fine -- the 
>goal is ministry, and the art should then be judged by the effective-
>ness of the ministry, not by its quality as art, per se.  This is 
>what makes artistic nitpicking about Vineyard, Integrity/Hosanna, etc.
>inappropriate, IMHO.

Madeleine L'Engle would surely disagree with that. Read "Walking on Water"
(a set of meditations on faith and art). To her, bad art is also bad 
ministry/christianity. She even contends that truly good art is also at its
essence Christian, i.e. "true", "good", and "lovely". I tend to agree with her. 
I know I have a hard time entering into an attitude of worship singing a 
poorly written, dishonest, unimaginitive pretend-praise song.

Parting flamebait: 

  Perhaps we should recognise that the overwhelming majority of professional
Christian musicians view what they do as a *career*. It may be ministry, but it
is a career. For crying out loud, most *pastors* I've gotten close enough to to
see beyond the surface see what they do as a *career* (complete with goals of
scope of influence, salary, the works!). And I am not in a position to judge
them in that attitude. I'm a VLSI designer.

Bob (if Paula Abdul had cut the "baby" video we'd have been celebrating
     its "refreshing" focus-on-good-clean-relationship theme) Miller

rhm@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
Subject: Re: Do We Need a New newsgroup? (was Re: Those Nasty Fundamentalists)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:14:22 GMT

Stacey, one thing I'm confused about... you say you go to a "fundamentalist
charismatic church".  Perhaps this is picking nits over terminology, but in
_my_ understanding, "evangelical" is the broad term for Christians who
believe the Bible is without error (in the original writings, at least).
Fundamentalists and charismatics are both part of the "evangelical camp",
but on opposite sides of the spectrum, so "fundamentalist charismatic"
seems like an oxymoron to me.

Again, I suppose this is nitpicking, and the terms don't really matter,
except that it's confusing to use these words when fellow believers have a
different understanding of them.  Take me, for instance: I would be
considered a fundamentalist by some people (probably by you, judging from
what you've written about your understanding of the word).  I might also be
considered a charismatic (again, I imagine you might).  While I have great
respect for both fundamentalists and charismatics, I have theological
differences with both, and I cannot identify with what I perceive to be
excesses by both.  I choose, therefore, not to call myself either a
fundamentalist or a charismatic.
-- 
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre)
Subject: John Austin, "The Embarrassing Young"
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:03:33 GMT

New release by a new artist.  The artist is John Austin, the disc
is "The Embarrassing Young".  Pretty good..worth checking out.  He
got a LOT of help from The Choir on this:  all the drums are done
by Steve Hindalong, and Derri Daugherty does some electric guitar
and some of the production.  Another well-known helped out with some
of the production and some of the miscellaneous instruments:
Mark Heard.  John opened for The Choir on much of the recent tour.

I would classify this as interesting and well-done straight rock, with
lots of Tenor/Soprano harmonies.  Lyrics are mostly thought provoking
(that is, they aren't shallow), but can get dark and moody.  I think
its quite good for a first effort.  There's one very country-ish song,
but I guess nobody's perfect :-)

Also, I feel compelled to mention this work since John is from around here
and is a friend-of-a-friend.

I'd be real interested to hear what others out there think of it.
It was just released on Glasshouse.

		William LeFebvre

P.S.:  anyone have an update on Mark Heard?
From: gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Music that makes you drive fast...
Date: 22 Aug 92 02:06:53 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

I've seen a number of posts on this subject already, and i'm just wondering...

What songs make you want to roll down the windows and drive really fast?

Some of mine are:

The World Around Me--Kings X
Independence Day--WhiteHeart
Anything by Boston
Red Barchetta--Rush
Most of _This Means War_(album)--Petra

Spare me the debate about the sinfulness of driving over the speed limit-
I can't drive 55 :-)

JRjr 
-- 
'Hear the tale of a fallen people, destined to wander their broken land.
Their eyes are vacant, full of empty meaning, and what they're missing they
just don't understand.  Beyond the dark horizon, out where the people are
crying, a Morningstar will be rising, rising to show us the way...' Whiteheart
From: isc30366@nusunix2.nus.sg (HO TUCK CHIUN)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Space aliens eat Amy CD's for breakfast
Date: 14 Aug 92 04:21:43 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore

yag@eng.umd.edu (Eric Funk) writes:
: 
: I've been reading this newsgroup for about a year and have come to
: the conclusion that most people who post are crazed Amy Grant groupies.
: Its getting just a little old. Let's discuss some of the other hundreds
: of christian artists that are out there. Maybe we need an Amy fandom
: news group.  Before this group I was under the impression that the
: only music that my other Christian friends listened to was Amy, and
: now I'm almost certain that Amy is the only artist most christians have
: ever heard of. Someone prove me wrong! 

    Crazed Amy Grant groupies.. nah... 

    But I do agree with you that the topic is getting waaay to stale.
How about a discussion on what we think a Christian musician should
be... a Christian who's also a musician or a minister?  I've been
thinking about it for quite some time and would like some other
viewpoints.

: EFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEF
:  		    \ | /
:  [YAG]--------------  * -  

RodneyH
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: ogden_jon@macmail1.rtsg.mot.com
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Organization: CSG Group
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:06:08 GMT

In article <65867@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray)
writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.024631.9307@doe.utoronto.ca> peter@doe.utoronto.ca
(Peter Mielke) writes:
> 
> About 2 months ago i went to Bill Gothard's Basic Principles Seminar
> (i forget the actual name).

> Anyhow i went to see what he had to say
> about music (i had gone about ten years ago and was not too impressed
> by what he had to say then). This time i was even more ticked off by
> what he had to say.


I've been to the Bill Gothard seminars too, had teacher's in high school that
felt the same way Bill does, and have encountered all sorts of opposition to
Christian rock.  Is one music form immoral??? HORSE PUCKEY!!!!

Music in itself is a medium, just like poetry, drama, and any other art form. 
It in and of itself is not bad.  God created EVERYTHING.  Satan cannot create,
but only pervert.  Therefore all these rythyms and notes that are "evil" had to
have been created by God, and GOD IS NOT EVIL.  It is what we as individuals do
with the music that makes it good or evil.  I am more concerned with the words
that I listen to, wether they are easy listening or heavy metal.  The music is
nothing in and of itself.  Just like anything good, and can be twisted and used
for wrong, but by itself....

There is a term called "legalism" - trying to merit God's favor by our own
actions.  The people who condemn me for my music tastes I believe fit into this
category.  People also condemned Wesley (I think) for taking bar room songs and
making hymns out of them!  Some of our greatest hymns were once sung (different
words) by a bunch or drunk old sots in England!  Are these melodies immoral???
NO!

I prefer to worship with a broad spectrum of music including electronically
altered guitars.  If you don't - that's fine.  Just don't condemn me for my
freedoms.  As Christ said "Remove the beam in your own eye first, then you can
see clearly to remove the spec in your brother's eye."

nuf said.....


Jon Ogden
From: gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: R.M.C. Desert Island Quiz #2
Date: 22 Aug 92 02:01:22 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

>> 
>> Question 1: You have a choice of up to 10 albums that you can have
>> with you when you get to the island. What are your choices for music
>> that you "just gotta have" with you?  This music can be any genre and
>> any artist in the last, say 100 years. Your choices don't have to be
>> in order of preference and need to include artist (s) and album title.
>> 
>>   Artist or Group			Album
 1.  The Choir				Chase the Kangaroo
 2.  U2                                 The Joshua Tree
 3.  Steve Taylor                       I Predict 1990
 4.  WhiteHeart                         Powerhouse
 5.  Petra                              Captured in Time and Space (_NOT_ CD)
 6.  Rush                               Chronicles, disc 2
 7.  Mylon/Brokenheart                  Face the Music
 8.  Sweet Comfort Band                 Cutting Edge
 9.  Boston                             Third Stage
10.  Journey                            Greatest Hits
> 
>> Question 2: After about five years, you find out (via a letter in a
>> bottle) that you can get a hold of new albums from 10 artists or
>> groups of your choice; which artists would you want to catch up on?
>> 
>>			Artist
 1.  WhiteHeart
 2.  The Choir
 3.  U2
 4.  Petra
 5.  REZ
 6.  DC Talk
 7.  Stryper

Can't really think of any more...


>> 
>> has the  best music of the career of one artist or group. If you had
>> a choice, which  artist or group would you choose?
  
 1. U2
 2. Rush
 3. The Choir 
 4. Petra
 5. REZ
  
>> Question 4: After a few more years, you get the chance to hear two
>> groups in concert as their boat passes close by the island ( yes,
>> its a really busy island :-) ); who would you want to hear and what
>> songs  would you want them to play?
 
 1. U2: New Year's Day, Sunday Bloody Sunday, _The Joshua Tree_
 2. WhiteHeart: Everything recorded since (and including) _Freedom_
 
>> Please post all replies to this quiz on the net and have fun
>> filling it out! :-)


-- 
'Hear the tale of a fallen people, destined to wander their broken land.
Their eyes are vacant, full of empty meaning, and what they're missing they
just don't understand.  Beyond the dark horizon, out where the people are
crying, a Morningstar will be rising, rising to show us the way...' Whiteheart
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: peter@doe.utoronto.ca (Peter Mielke)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Reply-To: peter@doe.utoronto.ca (Peter Mielke)
Organization: Dictionary of Old English Project, University of Toronto
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:51:22 GMT


In <1992Aug18.215410.22880@rambo.atlanta.dg.com>, Bill Rawlins writes:
> 
>   Any person who has been born-again has the Holy Spirit within them.
>   They should be able to discern flesh from spirit.
>   I used to be "into" really hard rock quite a few years back.
>   When I listen to "Christian" music that is is "fleshly", I can sense
>   it.

Enlighten us please!

>   When I listen to music that brings praise and adoration to God,
>   I can sense it.  The question is, What do I want to listen to,
>   that which is fleshly or that which is spiritual?  As Christians,
>   we should choose spiritual things rather than fleshly.

We all agree with that, but you have not told us your basis for
determining "christain" vs "fleshly" music.

What factors do you take into account in making your decision?
-- 
Peter Mielke                                              peter@doe.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto, Dictionary of Old English Project  utzoo!utdoe!peter
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: pearsodc@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (D)
Subject: ATBA chapter forming (sort of an Amy thread)
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:12:55 GMT


Okay, I submit my official apology to the net for my rash, mindless, and  
useless posting on the Amy threads.  I am now forming a chapter of ATBA
(Amy Thread Bashers Anonymous), a support group for rec.music.christian  
readers who just can't stand it when there are 500 new posts in r.m.c and  
497 of them are Amy threads and Amy thread spinoffs.  Those interested in  
joining my send their membership applications to PearsoDC@NeXTWork.Rose-  
Hulman.Edu.  Who knows, we just might get a newsletter going or something!

By the way, I'm half serious...

Extracting my tongue from my cheek, I really do apologize for being the  
sole reason that six of this morning's new posts were part of MY spinoff  
of the Amy thread.  I'll shut up now...

clueless chuck
PearsoDC@NeXTWork.Rose-Hulman.Edu
From: BD32@lafibm.lafayette.edu (Fritz Block, LCF Summer President)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: RE: R.M.C. Desert Island Quiz #2
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:50:37 GMT
Organization: Lafayette College
Originator: news@lafcol

>Question 1: You have a choice of up to 10 albums that you can have
>with you when you get to the island. What are your choices for music
>that you "just gotta have" with you?  This music can be any genre and
>any artist in the last, say 100 years. Your choices don't have to be
>in order of preference and need to include artist (s) and album title.
>
  Artist or Group   Album

1. Larry Norman     Upon This Rock
2. Larry Norman     Down Under (but not out)
3. Larry Norman     So Long Ago the Garden
4. Larry Norman     Something New Under the Son
5. Chuck Girard     Chuck Girard
6. Paul Clark       Hand to the Plow -- wish I had a good copy of this!
7. Larry Norman     Stranded in Babylon
8. Daniel Amos      Horrendous Disc
9. Glass Harp       Song in the Air
   (Phil Keaggy's
    old band)
10. 2nd Chapter of  How the West was One (both volumes!)
    Acts/Keaggy/
    A Band Called
    David

>Question 2: After about five years, you find out (via a letter in a bottle)
>that you can get a hold of new albums from 10 artists or groups of your choice;
>which artists would you want to catch up on?

  Artist

1. Larry Norman (hope he doesn't retire!)  6. Adam Again
2. Phil Keaggy                             7. Terry S. Taylor
3. Daniel Amos                             8. Michael O'Martian
4. Soldiers For Christ                     9. The Stand
5. Sparks                                 10. Jeff Johnson

>Question 3: A box washes up on shore with 5 albums, each of which has the
>best music of the career of one artist or group. If you had a choice, which
>artist or group would you choose?

1. Larry Norman
2. Chuck Girard (including his Love Song work, I hope)
3. Paul Clark
4. Phil Keaggy
5. Daniel Amos


> Question 4: After a few more years, you get the chance to hear two
> groups in concert as their boat passes close by the island ( yes,
> ts a really busy island :-) ); who would you want to hear and what songs
> would you want them to play?


1. SFC
2. The Phil Keaggy Band (not just Phil and his guitar & repeater)

*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
* Fritz Block    "Love is not a ballad on the top ten chart            *
* bd32@lafayacs   Love is not a virus from cupid's dart                *
* 215-250-8031    Love is not a promise that you tear apart            *
* Lafayette Col.  Love is a commitment heart to heart" -- Larry Norman *
*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Recommendation for video...
From: tothmd@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Michael David Toth)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 23:55:38 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Cincinnati

>
>On the first night of the camp, before our Passover Feast, we would like
>to show a movie/video related to some kind of mystical journey to the kids 
>to set the tone for the camp.  The movie can be either secular/Christian.
>Please let me know if you have any suggestion for the movie.  Thanks.
>
I'm not familiar with the _Exodus_ film that's been mentioned, but that
may work.  But a film I've plugged before on here and will continue to
until I'm blue in the face is Vincent Ward's "The Navigator: A Time
Travel Adventure" (NOT to be confused with Disney's "Flight of the
Navigator").  It's basically about a young child who leads a pilgrimage
of 13th Century (?) peasants through the center of the earth to the 20th
Century to make an offering to God to spare their village from the black
plague.  Loaded to the hilt with Christian imagery and really powerful
in exploring faith and redemption, it's a pretty sophisticated film.
But I'd think kids could probably follow it fine, if not only by
identifying with the kid who's the main character.  Heavy Scottish
accents by Australian/New Zealand actors might throw some kids perhaps,
but aside from probably being one of the finest "mystical journey" films
I've ever seen, it's a wonderful Christian allegory.  E-mail me if you
want to go with this and I could probably help you with an approach with
the kids...

Michael Toth
tothmd@ucunix.san.uc.edu

>	Wing 
>
>	whc@karin.att.com
>
From: gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Whiteheart
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:06:12 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <wgorlitz.0333@wiz.outb.wimsey.bc.ca> wgorlitz@wiz.outb.wimsey.bc.ca (Walter Gorlitz) writes:
>in your sig you quote the lyrics from the eleventh song on the new Whiteheart album.  On the CD it has no title (at least the Canadian version) does anyone with the cassette have a title for it?

I guess this one's for me;  the attribution got lost somewhere.  The song is
called 'Morningstar.'  What happened, according to the Whiteheart interview
in this month's CCM, is that the producer had gone to make the masters for 
the album, and the band was on tour and still trying to come up with a good
title for the album.  Somebody suggested 'Tales of Wonder' and proceeded to
quote the lyrics from the song 'Morningstar' [my sig], which had been recorded
but not included on the album (hopefully we'll see this on another cd maybe).
So the band rented a 12 string and went into a studio and made the short
recording of the song that is on the album and FedEx'd it to the producer
to include on the album.

JRjr
-- 
'Hear the tale of a fallen people, destined to wander their broken land.
Their eyes are vacant, full of empty meaning, and what they're missing they
just don't understand.  Beyond the dark horizon, out where the people are
crying, a Morningstar will be rising, rising to show us the way...' Whiteheart
From: moeller@convex.com (Tom Moellering)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: MATW, DAS (Brian Healy)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:46:58 GMT
Reply-To: moeller@convex.com (Tom Moellering)
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Originator: moeller@neptune.convex.com
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Aug12.032737.6157@cs.rose-hulman.edu> pearsodc@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (D) writes:
>
>More important stuff...anybody heard the new Mad At The World disc yet?   
>How about the new Dead Artists Syndrome?  Are they worth a few dollars?

I consider the DAS disc to be a must by.  I have read at least 2 reviews
(Syndicate, Notebored, thanks phiggins ;-) and the highpoints:

	Mike Roe, Derri Daughtery, Steve Hindalong, Michael Sauerberry
	and even Mike Knott in some places as well.

	But supposedly Brian Healy made them play it his way, which will be even
	more interesting.

	Also that this is supposedly a more upbeat disc than last time.

But no, I don't have it yet, nor have I heard it.  (July was an expensive
month for me:  Joshua's had a $5 off purchase coupon and I came back several
times ;-)

MATW? 'Through The Forest' is the title I have heard, but thats all I know.
--
Tom (moeller@convex.com)
		starting with ashes, I'm building fire
	    Standing Still / Sam Phillips / Cruel Inventions
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian