HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sybok@m4-035-17.MIT.EDU (The Terminator)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: PEN GUN
Date: 13 Apr 92 02:22:24 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <53076@mimsy.umd.edu> dbruce@athena.mit.edu (David M Bruce) writes:
#In article <53055@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Terminator) writes:
##In article <53034@mimsy.umd.edu> dbruce@athena.mit.edu (David M Bruce) writes:
###In article <53004@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-1.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
####Where could I get a pen gun?
###
###Nowhere, they're illegal (at least in MA).
##
##I'm intimately familiar with Massachusetts law regarding firearms.  Silencers
##are prohibited, machine guns are heavily restricted, and handguns are illegal
##to purchase without a license to carry.  What chapter and section number
##of Massachusetts General Law prohibits the purchase or possession of 
##pen guns?
##
##
#I don't have my law book handy, but I believe it's thrown in with the 
#possesion of a dangerous weapon section that makes things like dirk
#knives, nunchucks, sword canes, brass knuckles, ect. illegal to possess.
#I'll check on it.

That's chapter 269 of Mass. General Law, which prohibits *carrying* a 
handgun without a LTC, and *carrying* a dirk knife, numchucks, brass knuckles,
etc.  Possession of a handgun is not covered by this section, and it's
not illegal to possess a dirk knife in your house, or to possess brass
knuckles in your house.  As far as I know, the only weapon which your
can't OWN in your house is a stun-gun (portable electric device designed
to incapacitate), a weapon prohibited by chapter 140 of Mass. General Law,
which handles possession (instead of carrying).
From: ALKIRE@acuvax.acu.edu (AL KIRE)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: removing primer
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:12:37 GMT
Organization: Lost in NETland

In <53254@mimsy.umd.edu> earlw@Apple.COM writes:

# 
# In article <52933@mimsy.umd.edu> edsr!kjs@uunet.UU.NET (Kevin Sedota) writes:
# 
# # what is the safest way to remove a live primer from a case. I was using a Lee
# # auto primer and one of the primers go side ways and was pressed against the 
# # next primer in the tool. I didn't notice it until I had seated the primer.
# #
# # A friend suggested I put it in the gun and fire it. (no bullet) But I never
# # remember to take them to the range. would it be safe to use the
# # decaping/sizing die on it or would that set the thing off.
# #
# 
# Wow!  What a good question!  I usually put the case with the primer in my gun
# at HOME and fire it (with no powder or bullet).  I never though about it, but
# that may be against the law because it's discharging a firearm within city
# limits (I live in the Bay Area).  Maybe I should be firing these at the range
# instead.  I would recommend that you do not try to use a decapping die or any
# other object to push the primer out of it's seat.  You may set the primer off.
# I did screwup once and decap a primer from a case in my RL550B but it didn't
# go off.  I rather not try my luck again :-)
# 
# 

The standard, accepted method of removing primers from case is to deactivate
them and then use the decapping pin.  To deactivate the primer, douse them in
oil.  The easiest way to do that is to spray them with WD-40 or its equivalent. 
You then need to let it soak for awhile (like overnight) to let the oil work
into the priming compound and ruin it.  (Remember all those warnings about
handling primers with case lube on your hands?)  After the oil has done its
dirty work, you can push them out like fired primers.  This is the accepted
practice.  I will admit I haven't always followed it (I've also done other
stupid things in my life which I wouldn't recommend for anyone else to do). 
FWIW I have pushed live primers out with the decapping pin.  I cleared the
bench of flammibles (powder, other primers, etc.), was wearing eye protection,
was very conscious about where my hands and other parts of my body were and
GENTLY pushed the primer out.  It popped out without problem and I reseated
them and used them with no problem.  I mention this for curiosity's sake.  I do
not recommend this practice.  IF YOU WANT TO BE AS STUPID AS ME, YOU HAVE TO
TAKE THE SAME DUMB RISK I DID.  (Is that enough of a disclaimer yet?)  I WOULD
RECOMMEND THE SPRAYIING WITH OIL, WAITING AND DECAPPING METHOD.
From: spacelab@milton.u.washington.edu (scott west)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: polar bear...
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:31:10 GMT
Organization: SpaceLabs, Inc., Redmond, WA

In article <52683@mimsy.umd.edu> glock@glock.chip.cba.ufl.edu (Joe Granto (BACL)) writes:
#The .454 Casull is a good round, but...
#
#
#I think the Desert Eagle .50 would be the way to go.  It is nice and heavy, 
#which means the kick shouldn't be that bad.  It is also semi-auto, wich is 
#just too much.  The bullets it shoots are about the same weight and velocity 
#shot out of a musket...

I believe if you'll check the reloading specs the .50AE muzzle velocity is 1400
fps.  Muskets maybe get up to 1100, more like 900.  With a 325grain slug that 
difference in energy is significant.

Scott West    spacelab@u.washington.edu    (206)882-3700
Clinical Information System Group, SpaceLabs, Inc.
Redmond, WA
From: RRUBERT@CISNCC.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Revolver Hammer Shrouds....
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:04:02 GMT

# 
# #From Andrew Ford:
# 
# #I do not carry any weapon with a live round under the hammer no matter how
# #many safety features are in place to prevent accidental discharge.  You can
# #get away with relying on safety features for a long time, possibly even your
# #entire lifetime, but your grandchild may be the one who is using the gun when
# #the saftey feature fails: will that child be relying on the safety features or
# #on good sense?  Safety features are *no* substitute for intelligent, cautious 
# #handling of firearms.
# 
# 
# 	I cannot help but wonder if this is a little too conservative.
# 	Having examined the mechanism on my Ruger and Taurus revolvers
# 	as well as my PPK/S I cannot see how a "safety failure" is any
# 	more likely than a direct meteor strike. If this sort of thing is 
# 	taken too far you have to start worrying about sponteanous
# 	combustion in the other chambers of the cylinder.
# 
# 	I try to rely on rules 1 thru 3 for safety. Course I do get
# 	a littel nervous about those cocked and locked folks.
# 
# 
##It *really* amazes me that people will "get worried about the cocked
##and locked folks" because they depend on safeties instead of not having##
##a live round under the firing pin AND in the same breath carry on about
##how overly cautious it is to advise against relying on the "safety" of
##the hammer/firing-pin block.

	   For Andrew and others who care, I was half joking about the 
	cocked and locked worries. But as far as my reservations about
	cocked and locked carry I was refering to the practice on the 
	1911 Colt style pistol. In this case the safeties apply only to
	the trigger. They do nothing for the possibility of the sear
	disengaging apart from the action of the trigger. This is a far
	cry from a block of steel between the hammer and firing pin.
	But at the bottom line, Rule 1 says all weapons are always loaded
	and should be treated as such. If you cannot, don't touch em. If
	you are around those that can't don't allow them to touch em.
	Simple.


			Rod Rubert
From: redelen@slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU (EDELEN RANDY G )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: (null)
Date: 17 Apr 92 12:44:41 GMT



	I looking for some new shooting irons after spending the last 9
years in poverty with my Marlin Model 60.  The following requirements are
for hunting only, self defense needs are not a consideration here.


	Rifle

The applications that I have for this gun are:  deer, antelope,
varmit (coyote, prairie dogs), and perhaps someday moose and bear.(I hope
this isn't to broad for one rifle)   I am thinking a 7mm Rem Mag, but still
flexible.  The questions I need answered are caliber, brand, semi/bolt and
any other helpful insights.  I am looking at spending ~$500 on this rifle.

	Scope

The scope for this rifle needs to be in the $200-$300 range. I have not had
much experience with scopes and will need info on brand, fixed/variable,
power, coatings, and any other categories that I have left out.  


	Shotgun

I have done alot of upland bird hunting and would like to get started in
waterfowl next season.    Shotguns for home defense purposes have been
discussed in a previous thread, with the Remington 870 and the Mossberg
recommended.  I am looking for a hunting application only and am not
concerned with the 'extras' that are available.  I have looked at the
Browning BPS 3.5" and liked the smooth action and the new engraved reciever
sides are nice.  I disliked the top tang safety but it is a minor
consideration.  Recommmendations on chamber (3"/3.5"), brand, pump/semi,
and anything else are desired.    Price~$500 
	


	I am eagerly awaiting your replies


Randy
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotguns vs Handguns (was: Gun Recommendations Sought)
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:29:29 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <52656@mimsy.umd.edu>, pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:
# I agree with everything said, but:
# 
# You stated that sometimes even a 12-gauge shotgun doesn't stop attackers; given
# this, it would make sense that a 20-gauge would have even less of a chance...
# 
# As far as court problems: Actually, there has been many a case in which the
# prosecutor said: "Yes, and he even made his own bullets!  Ones designed
# specifically to expand and cause the maximum possible amount of damage (JHPs)!"
# I'm not saying you're less likely to win; I don't even know what the result
# of such claims are - just pointing out that this is a point often made...
# 
To which one would simply respond,
"Well, I used JHPs because I was really did not want to have bullets 
going through an attacker(/rapist/murderer/copkiller/etc) through a wall
or two and into my neighbor's body ... Are you suggesting I should have 
used a bullet that would have killed both the attacker(/rapist/murderer/
copkiller/etc) AND a neighbor?"

Not only would this refute his stupid claim, but it would also tend to 
lean the jury in favor of believing you overall -- especially if you
demonostrated the prostitutor's ignorance several times.

(And, for those holding flame cannons, I *know* how to spell "prosecutor.")



-- 
It's a wonderful feeling when you voted for the winner, but the time to vote for
the guy who "could win" is past: vote your conscience - Marrou/Lord in 92!
Andrew Ford INTERNET: gtephx!forda@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
            UUCP: !uunet!samsung!romed!asuvax!gtephx!forda
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Scoring Targets
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:20:07 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <52865@mimsy.umd.edu>, by gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn):
# 
# In article <52677@mimsy.umd.edu> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
# #Just for curiousity, is there some reason why groups with larger
# #numbers of shots in them are usually bigger?
# 
# Yeah, it's just what one expects from statistical sampling.
# One way to see that is to look at a target with lots of holes in it,
# then randomly select a small number of them (say, just two holes)
# and see that the subset is very likely a "tighter" group than the
# parent hole population from which the subset sample was drawn.

Ok, I usually load 10 rounds of a given recipe to test it in a
particular gun.  This seemed like a reasonable number after I
read the chapter about this in one of the Lyman reloading
manuals, it sounded like using more rounds would not gain very
much "accuracy" in my measurements.  Is this reasonable?  I think
the article indicated that this was around the 95% reliabilty
level.

With a Contender, I have been able to find loadings that will
group ~.5" with .32 magnums @ 25 yds.  With my .357 barrel, a
good group is around an inch, and that is with a low
magnification scope.  With a revolver, I consider a group near an
inch to be very good.

Is it to correct to believe that a 1 inch group at 25 yds means a
2 inch group at 50 yards and a 4 inch group at 100 yds?  I have
seen this done a lot, but is it correct?
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas More)
From: james@teal.csn.org (Jim Phillips)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Smoking those little orange disks
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:50:46 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.

In article <53251@mimsy.umd.edu> earlw@Apple.COM (Earl Wallace) writes:
#
#For the second time in my life, I went out and fired some shotgun shells at
#the trap range.  I have perhaps a total of 1 hour experience and yet I seem 
#to be smoking these disks at a much higher rate than I would have expected
#(over 70%).  Is this considered normal?  What percentage of the clays should
#be hit to be considered good?
#

I think that ATA Registered Shoots for five classes are...

If your % is equal 
to or higer than	your class is 

	97			AA
	94			A
	91			B
	88			C
	0			D

So you would be a D shooter.  Shooting over 70% for the second time in
your life is very good shooting.  I encourage you to continue the sport.
You'll be surprized how quickly you improve, however, only to a point.
Then you'll find it harder and harder to improve you average.

As the saying goes...

"They're not hard to hit.  They're just easy to miss."

While skill and proper equipment are important factors, trap is a 
primarily a sport of concentration, IMHO.

The very good shooters have the ability to always compensate for the
weather and lighting conditions and stay focused on breakin
This bird
This bird
This bird

If you think about the last bird, your wife, or your job while trying 
to shoot the current bird, you just might miss one.  And sometimes
missing one will be enough to loose.
.

#It's more fun to shoot these things out of the air than bore holes in a paper
#target...

You should try some skeet or sporting clays.  More targets in the air 
at the same time.

james
From: thi@mips2.ma30.bull.com (Saigon Smuggler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mini 14 info
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:30:58 GMT
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc.

In article <52713@mimsy.umd.edu> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
#I just picked up a Ruger Mini 14 Ranch Rifle at a gun show, and I'd be
#interested in hearing from other Mini 14 owners out there about a couple of
#questions I have.

I am not a Mini-14 owner but I have shot two extensively last year (property
of my shooting buddy).

#What level of accuracy can I expect from this rifle? (I haven't had it out
#to the range yet.) 

Do not expect the AR-15/HK-93/AUG level of accuracy.  Expect to get about
3-4 inch groups at 100 yards.  I usually get 1-1 1/2 inch group with my
HBAR and my friend's AUG and HK-93 with Norinco .223 55-grain.  With
SS-109 (green tips), I can get sub 1-inch group at 100 yards.

You'll notice that your first few shots will produce tighter groups.  I
suspect barrel heat is the culprit here.  Many people recommend getting
the stainless Mini-14 for better heat resistant.  10-15 minute cooling
periods will also help but is a drag on the range.

#I've followed the discussion about how different rifling twists affect the
#stability of .223 bullets. Is this an issue for the Mini 14? If so, what
#type of ammo should I use and avoid? 

The Mini-14 has a 1-in-10 twist.  Compare to the HBAR's 1-in-7 and AUG's 
1-in-9 twists.  With the 1-in-9 twist, the AUG handles the SS-109 ammo 
beautifully.  Since I have never used SS-109 in a Mini-14, I cannot comment
on whether the 1-in-10 twist can handle the extra weight of the SS-109.

#Speaking of ammo, what are your experiences with the cheap imported stuff?
#Do any of you reload .223? Is it worth it? What are your favorite loads?

My experiences with Norinco ammo has been a very positive one.  They are
inexpensive to shoot, which is the reason why I don't reload in .223.

-tt
From: jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SIG Sauer P226 vs. P228
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:04:52 GMT
Organization: Crash TimeSharing, El Cajon, CA

After reading the specs on the SIG P226 and P228 I noticed that the P228
will accept P226 magazines.  On the 15 rounds magazines, does a small
portion of it stick out of the bottom of the butt of the P228?  

The P226 is a bit longer than the P228, but the P228's magazine has 13
round capacity.  Is the P228 just a more compact version P226 that can 
accept P226 magazines?

I'm considering a SIG P226, but if the P228 is better, I may just want
that instead.  For those of you who have tried both, which did you
prefer and why?  I plan on trying both of them when I do buy if I can.

For concealment and reloading purposes to carry a P228 with its stock
13 round magazine in it and 15 round P226 magazines for extra ammunition?
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : jadpc!thewall!jca@nosc.mil | "If it's SCO, it's CRAP!"
 ** INTERNET: jca@thewall.cts.com        | 
 **           jca@thewall.uucp           |     - jca@thewall.cts.com
 ** UUCP    : nosc!jadpc!thewall!jca     |        (i.e. me)
 */
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloading dies - .40 S&W/10mm
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:04:05 GMT
Organization: Computing Center, North Carolina State University

In article <53218@mimsy.umd.edu> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
# ...
#Speaking of .40 S&W and 10mm, which set of dies should I buy in
#order to be able to load both of them?  My dealer says the .40
#S&W dies will load both while the 10mm dies won't.

  While this may differ with different brands of dies, the Lee Pistol
Dies generally seem to let you use dies for the shorter case to load
the longer case - by not turning the die "down" as far.  So, from
their catalog:

32 S&W Long Can be used to load 32 Magnum
38 Special  Can be used to load 357 Magnum
357 Magnum Can be used to load 357 Maximum
40 Caliber S&W Can be used to load 10 mm Auto
44 Special Can be used to load 44 Magnum

  I have used their 38 Spl dies to reload .357 Mag.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Clip prices?
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:12:44 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <53258@mimsy.umd.edu> bourman@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Bob Bourman) writes:
#		MAGAZINE...MAGAZINE...MAGAZINE...MAGAZINE...

For anyone who wonders why it matters, apart from general quality
considerations:  In the last firearms training class I attended,
the instructor pointed out that if you were in a foxhole (for
example) and just ran out of ammo, shouting for the fellow next
to you to toss you a clip when you actually need a magazine might
result in your getting killed due to the miscommunication.  Both
clips and magazines exist, sometimes in the same caliber, and
they are not at all the same thing.  The only thing they have in
common is in holding a batch of ammo in one unit.
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: IPSC: Major Power Factor and Bullet Weighing...
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:57:35 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <52516@mimsy.umd.edu>, jamaass@bluemoon.rn.com (Jeffrey A. Maass) writes:
# When loads are chronographed at USPSA/IPSC matches and bullets
# pulled to verify the claimed Power Factor, is the lube removed
# before weighing the (lead) bullets, or is the bullet weight
# assumed to include any lube in the groove?


   From what I've seen the weight includes the lube.



						John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:46:26 GMT
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY.

In article <53044@mimsy.umd.edu> rtaraz@ascoli.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz) writes:
##>>>> On 10 Apr 92 23:21:05 GMT, rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White) said:
#
#
#rrw> I have a video (the name of which escapes me at the moment) in
#rrw> which they fire tracers into a gas tank about 1/3 full of gas.
#rrw> You can seen the gas leaking out of the tank and you can see
#rrw> vapors all around the tank - it never explodes.  More movie B.S.
#rrw> I'm afraid.
#
#   I personally don't believe that a gas tank explodes by shooting
#bullets into it.  Gasoline does not explode unless its in vapor form
#(that's why cars have carborators to spray the gasoline in to the
#cylenders instead of pouring the gasoline!)

I hope I didn't give the impression that the fact that the tank doesn't
explode is movie B.S.  What I meant is that an exploding gas tank is movie
B.S.  I hope it's clear now. (Note that I specifically mentioned that you could
see the gas vapors also, since we all know that's what goes bang.)

#
#If you through an explosive into the gas thank, then it explodes!
#Thats how the special effects are created in movies (the explosions
#with a lot of fire and smoke.)  The explosion creates a lot of heat
#and also spreads the gasoline everywhere and you get a big flame.
#(I guess I should post this to alt.movies.special effets!)
#
#
#rrw> In another scene, a fellow selling soft body armour, shoots
#rrw> himself point-blank with a .44 mag - no problem and then shoots
#rrw> another fellow point-blank with a rifle (I forget the caliber).
#rrw> The shootee is standing on one foot at the time and the impact
#rrw> doesn't even make him lose his balance.
#
#
#Now, lets see here, how can somebody get hit with a bullet from a
#rifle and not loose his balance?  I dont care how good the armour is,
#you do loose your balance! (or maybe I am mistaking, I never stopped a
#bullet with my body)  
#
#One more thing, how can a _soft_ body armour protect you from a .44 magnum?
#

Well Ramin, you can either trust me or buy the video.  The body armor is not
penetrated by the .44 mag.  He did put two phone books under the vest first to
help pad his chest I guess.  He said he does it so often (he's a salesman) his
chest would be hamburger if he didn't use the books.  Also, the guy does not
lose his balance when he takes the rifle round.

Regardless of what Ramin may think, I would not lie on this list.  But to
satisfy him perhaps someone else out there has seen this video ("Deadly
Weapons") and would verify my comments.

Thanks and take care,

Rog
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: women collectors
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:55:41 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

Since I haven't received any flame mail and no responses have been posted
to my previous question, "Is there even one woman gun collector out
there?", I have to assume that there aren't any. Interesting.

Oh, to clarify terms:

In my book, a gun collector (as opposed to a shooter, or somebody who owns
guns for self defense) is a person who has at least five guns, and wants
more without having any definite practical purpose for the projected
acquisition.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~