HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mayor@ic10.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: What is reality?
Date: 13 Apr 92 21:45:11 GMT
Reply-To: mayor@ic10.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article 9180@PA.dec.com, dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com (David D'Antonio) writes:
>
>In article <1992Apr5.223050.10775@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, rose@fsu1.cc.fsu.edu (Kermit Rose) writes:

>|>What determines the existence of Free Will?
>
>Chaos theory currently gets my vote.
>
>DDA
>

  I want to have free will, but chaos theory is not the way to it.  Chaos
is a relative term...we do not see order, but it is not random!  
Essentially chaos theory shows us that we don't have a hope in heck :)
of being able to determine something that is chaotic, but it does NOT
say that it is NOT determined.  Yes, all fluid flow, air currents, etc
etc have a chaotic nature...but they are also deterministic.  
  Chaos theory does NOT lead to free will.

DISCLAIMER: This has been the scientist speaking, not the magickian :)

Live well,
cam.
---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------"It's about time to change that tired old .sig, cam."---------
----------- email: mayor@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lyn@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Myself)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: "real" = physical ?
Date: 8 Apr 1992 22:01:27 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Summary: 42=6*9 (base 13)
Keywords: reality, illusion, analysis

    Remember this when things get so serious on the molecular level:

	As far as I know, nobody has proved yet that this is the "real"
	world. Until then, everything here could be illusion. Which would
	explain magick nicely, as all you have too do is manipulate the
	illusion. (remember what MUDing is all about-a pale imitation of
	the real thing, a.k.a. magick)

		And remember: There is nothing you can't do-
		 if you can't do it in the "real" world, you
		 do it in your own world.
		
		words to live by.  Lyn@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Myself)
From: sk4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Shawn Clayton Knight)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: OES and Pentagrams
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:32:19 GMT
 <1992Apr4.165539.16781@acsu.buffalo.edu><1992Apr4.125051.1187@bvc.edu> 
 <Idrmt9e00YVXE2dO4s@andrew.cmu.edu><1992Apr5.182026.7865@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Organization: Freshman, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.alt.magick: 5-Apr-92 Re: OES and Pentagrams Peggy
Brown@ubvmsd.cc.bu (1128)

> Sounds sexist to me.

It was founded to provide something for women.  Your term should, if
anything, be "counter-sexist".

Excerpts from netnews.alt.magick: 5-Apr-92 Re: OES and Pentagrams Peggy
Brown@ubvmsd.cc.bu (1128)

> Reminds me of this OTO guy I heard recently giving a talk.  Said something 
> like "I could say a word of power right now but I won't because I took an 
> oath not to."


Yes, I took an oath.  When I was very young (7) I gave Mother my word
that I would not reveal anything I knew to be a Masonic or OES secret.


FLAME BEGINS

I don't care about the OTO, but I *do* keep promises to my mother.

Excerpts from netnews.alt.magick: 5-Apr-92 Re: OES and Pentagrams Peggy
Brown@ubvmsd.cc.bu (1128)

> *Very* impressed.

*Very* glad.

FLAME ENDS

shawn
Xref: sparky alt.magick:2154 alt.pagan:4755
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Gender Differences (was Re: masonic morals & dogma)
Summary: wrong group
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:30:44 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Radian Corp. Austin, TX

In article <92106.163123J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) writes:
> In article <1992Apr15.201529.15305@acsu.buffalo.edu>,
> oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) says:
> >
> >Why don't these Masons dress up in armor and go clunking around, if they're
> >so interested in tradition?
> >
> >- Peggy -
> >
> The Knights Templar branch of Masonry does!  Well, at least they wear
> swords to meetings.  The effect is rather comical, however.
> 
If they want to go clanking around, the appropriate group for them
can be read at rec.org.sca

 (signed, one-time heavy fighter in the SCA) mark

> John A. Johnson
> [breaking an implicit alt.magick rule by cross-posting to alt.pagan]


/*___________________________________________________________________________*
 *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
 *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
 *					                                     *
 *		         Mark Silverdragon                                   *
 *					                                     *
 *          	       	markbr@radian                                        *
 *___________________________________________________________________________*/
Etymology, n.:
	Some early etymological scholars come up with derivations that
were hard for the public to believe.  The term "etymology" was formed
from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy"
("study of").  It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow."
		-- Mike Kellen
From: sasso@flounder.phy.anl.gov (John F. Sasso)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Symbols
Date: 7 Apr 92 21:50:32 GMT
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory


I've been pondering severel GD/Thelemic images that I've never been
able to figure out.  I would appreciate any input, quick explanations,
or just a couple of reference words on the meaning of "The Southern
Sky."


						John F Sasso

-- 
"Elvis is Ted, and Ted is the False Bob," the Elvis Lectures
"But who is Ted?  Ted is the Shaman to the Stars, the Master of MauMau,
and a general SwellGuy."  the Book of False Bobs
"Points are bad. Winning is bad. The only way to win is to lose."BookofMauMau
From: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: david copperfild
Reply-To: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 02:34:46 GMT

i must admit i am rather serprised at the stuff on david c. in this group
dc admits that he is not a magichin but rather an alusionist. i thought 
that the perpuse of this group was to descuse real magick. suldnt discusions
of dc be on that uthere m group?

EKF-KIN   everyones faverit changling, trieing onse agan too rewright the 
						anglash language
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.cyberpunk
From: rjb@milton.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars)
Subject: Re: Help me to summon a demon! Now!
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 06:04:25 GMT


That grand list of sources omitted one of the best, the naughty Comte
d"Erlette's _Les Cules de Ghoules_, much discussed in alt.XI-degree.demons.

--LeGrand
From: dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com (David D'Antonio)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: What is reality?
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:58:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: PA.1992Apr13.165832.8473
Reply-To: dantonio@flashy.tay2.dec.com
Organization: None to speak of...


In article <1992Apr10.203452.11941@seas.smu.edu>, mitchell@seas.smu.edu (Gary Mitchell) writes:
|>>|>>For an informative look at modern "scientific" theories that attempt
|>>|>>to answer this question (and for a look at just how bizarre quantum
|>>|>>theory can get), see the book "Paradigms Lost" (I forget the author).
|>>|>
|>>|>I think this was science populist Frank Casti ?  Excellent presentation of the
|>>|>way (and limitations) of scientific method as applied to philosophical 
|>>|>questions.  He also wrote a book about 'certainty,'  but I haven't read it.

It is Frank L. Casti

|>>I read some more last night and STILL forgot to get the guy's name. Oh
|>>well...While I haven't gotten to the end of the "what is reality"
|>>chapter, the explanation of Bell's Interconnectedness Theorem is very
|>>interesting, to say the least.
|>>
|>
|>There is another book called *The Conscious Universe* (written by a
|>quantum physicist and a science historian) that, though very technical,
|>explains the full impact of modern scientific theory on philosophy, the
|>other sciences, and on human consciousness itself. Among its topics is
|>Niels Bohr's 'Copenhagen Interpretation,' which basically states that
|>scientific theory does not describe an ultimate reality, but merely 
|>models it. In this regard, anyone claiming that science has all the
|>answers is committing folly. And unfortunately for the dogmatics, every
|>scientific theory seems to conform to the Copenhagen Interpretation very
|>well. In fact, it relieves the burden of some scientists -- instead of
|>chasing after some vision of reality, they can create models that work
|>well enough to be useful, without being burdened with areas that can
|>be ignored despite conflict.

Casti goes over the Copenhagen Interpretation, the Many Worlds
Interpretation and a couple others, all within the context of 'There
is no objective reality'. On the other side, he also details several
'There is an objective reality' theories before submitting the
question to the "jury"...

|>The test for the 'truth' of science is its usefullness, not its conformity
|>to 'reality.'
|>
|>There IS a 'reality' under it all, but everything you can 'know' about
|>it is filtered and interpreted by the brain. So there can be no pure
|>knowledge.

How can you know there is a 'reality' if all you know about it is
filtered and interpreted? 

[stuff deleted]

|>I for one would like to see a discussion on Chaos magick. I've heard a
|>lot about it, and would like to find out more. From what I've heard, it
|>seems to be related in mentality to Scottish magick....


|>mitchell@star0.seas.smu.edu

DDA

--
dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com -or- dantonio@sword1.enet.dec.com
  I've tried to dance with what life had to hand me
    My partner's been pleasure, my partner's been pain
				-Stevie Nicks
From: Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 12 Apr 92 00:27:31 GMT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS - Medford, Oregon

In a message dated Sat 11 Apr 92 06:35, Joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (joshua Ge
wrote:

 JG> mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:

>In article <1992Apr6.200857.26908@ccu.umanitoba.ca> mayor@ic15.umeeng
writes:
>>In article 18018@gdr.bath.ac.uk, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
writes:

>>>I was wondering if anyone out there might be brave enough
 JG>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>to share some experiences they've had with ritual magick?

>>Unfortunately, this strikes me as a junior-high way of getting somebody
>>to do something stupid.

>>[stuff deleted]

>Wow aren't you mr. negative know it all.  Personally, I find the subject
>of magick quite fasinating, but I've been quite bored with this newsgroup,
>because it's just loaded with a bunch of intellectual details.  I thought
>is might be interesting if people would be willing to share their
experiences
>instead for a change.  One charge that people make of magick is that its
>just a bunch ranting and raving and no action.  All the secrecy is just
>to cover up that there isn't anything behind it.  I hope it does something
>for you to act holier than thou, but it doesn't do anything for me but
>bore me.

 JG> there is this thing called the rule of silence (anyone who has done
 JG> any 
 JG> reading in magick at all has run into this; part of what is called
 JG> the 
 JG> four powers of the sphinx 'to know, to will, to dare and to keep
 JG> silence');
 JG> anyway, it doesn't really have anything to do with secrecy. different
 JG> 
 JG> people interpret it different ways. the way I interpret it, I won't
 JG> talk
 JG> (usuallly) about any specific experiences I have had. I'll talk about
 JG> stuff
 JG> I think might be possible, or probable, I am not unwilling to talk
 JG> about
 JG> specific techniques or methods or anything like that, but I won't
 JG> talk about
 JG> any workings I have done or the results thereof (or lack of results
 JG> thereof).

 JG> why this should be I find sort of difficult to put into words, but I
 JG> will
 JG> draw an analogy: say you want to perform the magickal act of
 JG> murdering an
 JG> enemy. there are several conditions which must be met for the
 JG> successful 
 JG> performance of this act.you have to know how to kill in the general
 JG> sense,
 JG> you have to have the will to kill this specific person, you have to
 JG> dare
 JG> to do it (perform the specific act) ... and you really *should* tell
 JG> no one.

 JG> josh

There is also the fact that can "cahrge" and idea or symbol by keeping it
secret.  Something about thorowing your pearls before swine :)

Gerald

-- Via DLG Pro v0.991
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Crowley's Soul and Annata
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:20:57 GMT
Reply-To: tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney)
Organization: Looking for a Gap in the Triangle

In article <1992Apr7.230921.15767@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> iew21308@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Ian E. Wickram) writes:
>As most of you are aware I'm sure, Frater      
>Perdurabo was want to borrow or absorb many ideas from Buddhist teachings, yet
>it seems to me like many Western sholars of the time he never trully absorbed
>the truth of Annata into practice which is a central doctrine of the Dharma.  
>Annata if you are unfamiliar with Buddhist Dharma is a rather puzzling doctrine
>to Westerners as it basically states that humans have no permanent self, or
>soul.  Yet I find Crowley constantly suggesting or expressedly stating a  
>permanence of self even though one can of course find exceptions, and even
>n accurate description of Annata in the Confessions.

Mr. Crowley repeatedly stressed that "I" was an illusion to be
destroyed in the ordeal of the abyss.  For instance, consult the
_Book_of_Lies_.  What emerges from the abyss has in one sense lost the
"I" forever, in another sense has merged with every "I" and every
phenomenon of the universe, in another sense has realized its own true
nature, in another sense has done none of these things, and in another
sense has done all of these things.

Self is a persistent illusion.  In this there is little if any difference
between Buddhism and Thelema.
-- 
Tim Maroney, Communications and User Interface Engineer
{apple!sun}!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com

"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." -- Patti Smith
From: misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Date: 17 Apr 92 13:48:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: netlink.e8NDJB1w164w
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

dwatson@lookout.uswest.com (Darryl D. Watson) writes:
> >  
> I am doing long-term magick, and I haven't taken any oaths...
> Why is there a perception that oaths MUST be taken to do 
> high magick, or magick over a long period of time?
> 
> An oath, IMO, curtails the Free Will of the Magician.

 
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
 
"high magick" is a pretty broad brush.  What are you working?  Goetia?
Abra-Melin? Watchtowers & Aethyrs? Greater Key of Solomon?  Bhakti Yoga?
 
An Oath doesn't curtain Will.  It focuses said Will on a Given Undertaking.
 
Love is the law, love under will.
 
m

--                    
INTERNET:  misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!misha
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: buescher@irk.ugcs.caltech.edu (Brent Joseph Buescher)
Subject: Re: Girl with a problem
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:46:16 GMT

890780m@ace.acadiau.ca (DARRELL IAN MANTHORNE) writes:


>	I am posting about a friend of a friend. She was apparently playing 
>with some Tarrot Cards alone in her room in residence and since then she has 
>had a few problems. Such as flickering lights, curtins opening and closing 
>by themselves, shot glasses flying across the room at her, her room being 10 
>degrees cooler than the rest of the house (starting at the door), and one 
>night she was awoken by something touching her and she had some wetness 
>across her neck. Some of these incidences have been witnessed by other 
>people. Anyone have any ideas about a solution before she has to go through 
>exams with her "problems"?

Have her go to your health center and talk to a counselor.  Anomalies of that
kind, whether you're a "psi-believer" or not, have a strong correlation with
psychological problems.  It's probably just stress from other things in her
life besides the tarot cards.  Talking to someone will likely do her a lot
more good than any hokey "exorcism."  Just my two cents.

Brent
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: BibloFAQ
Date: 12 Apr 92 17:04:37 GMT
Reply-To: Leo Smith <shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk

This looks like a Really Useful Idea.

.. lots more books to suggest, but categories first:-

        Ouspensky/Gurdjieff
        Chinese philosophy (i.e I Ching/ etc)
        Taoism
        Hinduism
        Post-psychedelic stuff (Lilly, et al)

Any reactions to these?
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Date: 14 Apr 92 23:11:52 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <Gerald_Del_Campo.002t@sorinc.UUCP> Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:
>Do you know of any organizations that have enough money to absorb the cost
>of initiations and initiate for free?

Yes.  In the tradition of the Eleusinian mysteries, a lot of pagan groups
and covens initiate without fee, and in some cases all who come requesting
it.  We do this by being extremely allergic to infrastructure, and creative
in our use of ritual materials.

We do not have our own buildings, professional staff, carven "thrones" for
officers, embroidered silks, and what have you.

By the way, thanks to the person from Massachusetts who sent me the $2.
I'll have to frame them and set them up over my desk.  It was a hoot.
(In the tradition of Jerry Brown:  That address is POBox1294, Oxford NC,
27565).  I confess I was shocked and tickled.  What fun!

Geez, I guess I just blew my amateur status...;-)
-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 14 Apr 92 10:22:34 GMT
Organization: University of Bath, England


>please look again at the list of those whom I have mentioned...were they
>deluded since their results (particularly Einstein's) can not truly be
>proven at this time?

Atomic Power and Black Holes are pretty stong evidence to back up 
Einstein's theories.

I know Goedel's proof that not all things are provable.  How then do
you propose that we determine whether someone is telling the truth or not?
The scientific method has been used to prove the existence of psychic powers.
Why shouldn't it be able to prove the results of magick as well.  All you have
to do is have a series of rituals and show that the desired result was
acheived at a consistency that substantially exceeds the laws of
probability.  That's how they did it with psychic powers. 
Xref: sparky alt.magick:2172 alt.cyberpunk:2126
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Help me to summon a demon!  Now!
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 18:19:08 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Liber XLII 

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.

Testing... 4637ABK24ALGMOR3YX2489RPSTOVAL

 4637ABK24ALGMOR3YX2489RPSTOVAL

 4637ABK24ALGMOR3YX2489RPSTOVAL [By the way, this is an invocation.]


A SPELL OF CLEANING:

HADIT!!   HADIT!!

Come, come to my garden!
I have lovely Darkness to swallow! I sing Thy praises!
AUMMM!!!!  We are kin!!

Greetings oh wise Hadit...  (waiting for Hadit's reply)


Hadit:

"I am a 3rd-plane schiztoid psychozombie with 16 opposable toes.
When you have found the correct sonic vibration to penetrate the psychic
wall,  simply speak my name and I shall appear in all my glory to do Thy Will.

This is not a private line, so you may be certain any reply you give may be
monitored.  I am at your disposal in galactic self-empowerment."

Invoke me under my stars!

Tagi NagaShiva,

Minerval, O', Ordo Templi Orientis

[Someone said I didn't know how to invoke.  I'm trying to prove them wrong.
What is the most hostile and dangerous Demon that I could conjure?  Got any
suggestions for names of those in principle power??  I don't want to mess
around with anything too inconsequential on my way to the top.]
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:22:53 GMT
Organization: School of Mathematics, University of Bath, UK

In article <joshua.703118986@coombs> joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller) writes:
>mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
>
>>Give me a break!  You guys like to go on and on about how magick is a form
>>of science
>
>I've never said this; the most I would say along these lines is that magick
>is similar to science in that it is doubt based (as opposed to religion (say)
>which is faith based).
>

I got this from your Crowley post.  I assume you believe it or you
wouldn't have posted it:

"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in Conformity with Will"


Also, what's there to doubt, when nothing will get reported first hand?

>
>
>please be specific. this newsgroup is not a monolithic entity. as far as I 
>can see, you are responding to remarks that gerald and I made (seperate 
>remarks). you might specifically criticize the individual who made the
>remarks you dislike rather than accusing the generic 'you guys'.
>

I thought that it was obvious that I was referring to you and Gerald, because
there was a reference to both of you in the post.  I'm sorry if I insulted anyone
else.  I just meant it for JOSH and GERALD.

I personally think that you are attacking me instead of my words, because
you don't have a decent argument to make.  This is a common practice
of people that are into deceit.

>
>to be 'exposed' or 'unmasked' as a 'quack' or 'fake' an individual must
>have previously made a claim taht is proven to be false. I myself am
>very careful not to make any claims that are not independantly verifiable.
>I'm sorry that this mostly means that I don't make any claims; that is just 
>how it is.
>

I don't agree.  I'd say that if someone speaks with authority on a subject,
but refuses to supply evidence that supports them speaking as such, then
they should be considered a quack and basically full of hot air.

>you are of course perfectly free to believe whatever you want 
>about anyone at all....
>

Thank you.  I can only conclude that you and Gerald are Charlatans.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 12 Apr 92 02:31:05 GMT

Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:

>In a message dated Tue  7 Apr 92 17:26, Tim@hoptoad.uucp (tim Maroney)
>wrote:

>>Besides, would you trust an initiation you had to pay for -- with
>>money?

> TM> Many people do.  They are called "O.T.O. members".

>Do you know of any organizations that have enough money to absorb the cost
>of initiations and initiate for free?

I question the need for formal organizations of this kind. what purpose
does the OTO serve? If it's just a social club, why the Oath of Secrecy?
If it is more than just a social club, what exactly is it? these are not
rhetorical questions; I'd actually like answers to them.

josh