HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Crowley and the Morality of Magick
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:52:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <73412@cup.portal.com>, Thyagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes...
>93!01.11 e.v.
> 
>Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
>The word of Sin is Restriction.

There is a lot I could have responded to in Tagi's post, but I'm
going to keep it simple and just follow up on a few points.

>I agree that this becomes paradoxical, but I think it has to do with
>the comparision between subjective and objective views (both incomplete
>and ultimately false) rather than because of any substantial paradox
>inherent to DWTW itself.  

I disagree.  I think it has to do with one person vs. many 
people, and that  there is paradox inherent in DWTW, 
regardless of subjective and objective views.  DWTW is 
the main tenant of Thelema.  But then Crowley comes out with the 
Law of Liberty (LOL), which I understand to mean that people have 
a right to do their true will without interference.  Very simply,
DWTW is one person doing his will and LOL is everyone doing their
will.  When that happens there are bound to be clashes, which 
results in a contradiction between DWTW and LOL.  Crowley would have 
kept things a lot simpler if he'd never explicitly stated the LOL 
corollary, which contradicts DWTW.  But LOL is inherent in DWTW, 
because its many people (not just one) doing DWTW, so he's really 
just stating the obvious.

>On the other hand, it does seem that AC has preconceptions or biases
>regarding what he concludes is possible regarding human nature with
>respect to this (fictional?) 'true will'.  

It has been said that if someone is really following their true will 
its inconceivable that they'd want to infringe on someone else.  
I think that's the ideal, but I don't think its universally true 
for the average human.  It seems part of the human condition that 
people mess with other people, at least in minor ways.  Note the 
number of posts about hexing an enemy.  Carried to its logical 
conclusion, the LOL would prevent one from hexing an enemy, but 
if one's true will (DWTW) is to hex the enemy.....AAAaaaargh!

>I think he consistently
>maintains an ambiguity which allows him an out, however, and I've
>seen few cases where he is not so careful.

DWTW sounds Eastern and dispassionnate.  LOL sounds Western and 
moralistic.   But LOL is just DWTW applied to everyone, not just 
one person.  This results in a paradox.  Nothing wrong 
with that.  I see no need to do verbal and mental gymnastics in 
order to resolve the two, or to make Crowley look like he knew 
all the answers.  I agree with Mark, that paradox means 
you're on the right track.  I'm suspicious of neat little theories 
with no loose ends.

I don't think Crowley ever fully resolved it for himself either.

- Peggy -
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: Keeping Silence
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:01:10 GMT

>You chose the analogy.  Now let's follow it.  I have trained hundreds
>of programmers, and I am indeed not particularly interested in whether
>or not a program runs.

<much deleted>

>Get these things right and the program WILL run.  Ignore these things and
>it will only be through dumb luck that you get your program running.  My
>goal as a teacher is not to produce running code.  It is to produce people
>who can, with confidence, solve new and difficult problems in good fashion.

You seem to miss the point entirely, which may very well have been your
intention.

Tell me, how do your students "solve new and difficult problems in good
fashion?"  They produce running code.  Out in the real world, people
produce running code or get fired.  Code that does not run solves no
problems, save the trivial ones of "what do we do with all of this memory
that we aren't using?" or "how can we waste time and money?"

The major difficulty that I see in magic is that nobody has any clear idea
of the things you need to get right for the "program to run" ARE.  So far
it's been a hit-and-miss operation with every magician either starting from
scratch or buying the party line as to "the Truth."

You have taken my comments as a jumping-off point for exactly the sort of
thing that they were directed against...a theoretical discussion of "should
we discuss only theory?"  If you are satisfied with doing whatever it is
that you're doing (I don't know what that is, since you won't discuss
practice here) then, obviously, I have nothing you want.  You, and the rest
of those who feel as you do, can debate the theories of magic until you
turn blue in the face...you may have something I could find useful, but
you won't share it.

This is not intended as a flame (well, not entirely anyway), but rather as
an invitation to others who want to get beyond this mental infinite loop
about ethics and categorizations and whether gods are real or just virtual
objects, and get into actually sharing things that work so that we all can
learn from each other.  The Aeon of the Walrus is gone.  (Hint: remember
Alice in Wonderland?)

>Your questions "how many modules and what kinds of loops" are not theoretical
>ones.  They are trivial numerological ones.  They are precisely what you
>asked for (details of the rituals).

I disagree; however, a discussion of this would be more appropriate for a
technical newsgroup, not a magical one.  So lets simply agree that the
specifics of the metaphor were inqdequate to express the meaning and leave
it at that.

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: Thyagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Email to me
Date: Thu,  7 Jan 93 18:34:21 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Email messages to me may get bounced in the next day or two.
Currently I can't send anything out.

My old address is still good.
I'm having an additional one installed.

Thank you for your patience.

Thyagi
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: abortifacients
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:55:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1io2j4INNs3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes...
>In article <1993Jan10.021856.22831@samba.oit.unc.edu>,
>Laura.Gowdy@launchpad.unc.edu (Laura Gowdy) said:
>>
>>        Let's try that again.
>>        I keep seeing Net requests for herbal-abortion info.
>>        It's reasonable to want your abortion at home, under your control,
>>affordably.  It's not reasonable to expect people on the Net to risk
>>prosecution for practicing medicine without a license, or as accessories
>>to your death or to the death of someone who reads their advice and uses
>>or misuses it.
> 
>I wonder if we could avoid the legal problems by running a thread on the
>history of abortifacants, apart from any contemporary recommendations
>for use and without any reference to anyone's contemporary situation.
>The ethical problems, of course, are independent of the legal ones.
> 

What exactly are these legal problems and liabilities people are 
referring to?  Without more specific information, it seems to me 
that there is a lot of paranoia and exagerration involved.

No one is impersonating a doctor.  I expect all "solutions" were 
sent with warnings.  I hope the original poster does her own 
research before trying anything, but its her responsibility.

- Peggy -
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Ben Rowe files and misc uploaded recently to Slopoke
Date: 7 Jan 1993 05:01:27 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

 This is a list of files either by Ben Rowe (author of Enochian Temples)
or material transcribed by him into the computer. These are from a disk he
sent to me to put on my BBS.

Contents of this disk:

ANATOMY.TXT -- Frater Achad's "Anatomy of the Body of God"

ANATFIGS.ZIP -- Zipped file containing the diagrams for "Anatomy of the
Body of God"

REVIVAL.TXT -- Frater Achad's "The Egyptian Revival"

ACHDTREE.GIF -- Diagram of Frater Achad's "restored" Tree of Life to
accompany "The Egyptian Revival"

SABIAN.TXT -- A listing of the 360 "Sabian Symbols"

SENIORS.TXT -- The magickal record of a series of invocations of the
Seniors of the Enochian Tablet of Earth

INRI-TBL.DOC -- Tables of correspondences for the INRI / IRNI formula,
with comments. 

NEWAEON.TXT -- A work-in-progress concerning the astrological symbolism of
the New Aeon. 

AEONGIFS.ZIP -- Diagrams to go with NEWAEON.TXT



Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: KEEPING SILENCE
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:37:02 GMT

mike.mcaulay@spacebbs.com (Mike Mcaulay)  writes:

>-> Subject: Re: Keeping Silence

>cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:

>-> Sorry, but I think this business is so subjective, that what works
>-> for you has no guarantee that it will work for me.

>-> Again, "what I think should work" only applies to me.  Telling
>-> someone: "The Star Ruby never worked for me, so it is worthless", or
>-> even "The Star Ruby is great!  Try it today!!"  doesn't really give
>-> them any useful information.

>I see what you're driving at, but you're overstating your case.  Fer
>instance: did you understand all of the physics of flight the first time
>you boarded an airplane?  I didn't.  I believed what others told me and
>lo and behold up into the air I flew.

Aerodynamics really don't care what you are thinking.  The Star Ruby, on the
other hand, requires appropriate mental set at every stage.  Just doing the
actions without any understanding of why is unlikely to have any real results.
Well, that isn't completely true--if you know what it is supposed to accomplish,
and you have a very strong belief that it will work, it may occur simply
because you *believe* it will.  However, you could have just as well done an
infinite number of other things, including things which were structured for a
contrary purpose, and gotten the same results if you honestly believed that X
actions would result in Y.  The forms are not the magic.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: More Temple of Set files on Slopoke.
Date: 8 Jan 1993 00:56:51 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

 I've uploaded some of the files I have to slopoke as well. They were not
in the group that someone else uploaded there.

 Here is a list:

                -------------------------------
                Temple of Set Information Files

TSINF.SET    Temple of Set: General Information and Admission Policies,
             Updated 1/XXV AES
ORDERS.SET   ToS Orders-General
OTRAPZ.SET   ToS Order of the Trapezoid Statement
OL-STM.SET   ToS Order of Leviathan
OSHUTI.SET   ToS Order of Shuti
MUFFIN.SET   Aquino rebuts "Do You Know the Muffin Man?"
TAROT.SET    Satanic Tarot readings
TECH.SET     Magical Technology
LAW_OF_1.SET The Law of One
LAW_TRAP.SET The Law of the Trapezoid
SET.TXT      Set in Egyptian Mythology, by Oz Tech
MED_SET.TXT  Set Meditation taken from _Brimstone_ of The Ancient
             Brotherhood of Satan
MACHINES.SET Magick and Machines
WHERE.SET    Where to Get Gear
TSRLIN.SET   Temple of Set Reading List Introduction
CRYSTAL.SET  The contents of the Crystal Tablet of Set.
FASCIST.SET  About the argument concerning Facism.
HORNS.SET    Horns Accross the Water: America and Britain.
MADE_ME.SET  The Devil Made me Do it.
WORD.SET     The Power of a Word
XEM.SET      What "Xem" means.


Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.satanism,alt.pagan
From: jtraub+@cs.cmu.edu (Joseph Traub)
Subject: Divination Web
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 20:42:01 GMT

Welcome to Divination Web, an experiment in online magick and symbolism.

Divination Web is a MUCK that is as of today open to the public.  It is
also an experiment based in part upon some thoughts I'd had before, and
in other parts upon Thyagi's posts on CyberMagick.  The result of those
discussions was he and I sitting down and brainstorming a bit, with the
result being the concept of Divination Web.

The Web is a SMALL online area built with magickal symbolism intentionally
exploited in a MUCK framework.  It's intent is to allow interested people
to walk through and explore the symbolism that others use in magickal means
and to allow them to create and expand the world with areas that portray
other symbolisms for others to learn through.  It's second intention is
to provide a framework for the support of online ritual in a mud environment.
I have personally taken part in online rituals on IRC, and cannot help but
think that a mud (especially a programmable one such as MUCK) can do anything
besides enhance the symbolism and further the mindset.  The programmability
can be taken advantage of in a nearly infinite variety, provided you have
the courage and the motivation to learn the language and to try it out.

One of the other things that's important for people to know off hand, is that
this mud is open to ANYONE who wishes to come online and take advantage of
the oppurtunity offered.  It is NOT a social mud per se, but nor is it an
adventure mud.  Anyone who is interested in learning about magick or
seeing how the flexible environment of a mud creates or detracts from ritual
is welcome.  The only people who are NOT welcome are those who deliberately
tell others that their ideas have no place.

Currently built are some portions of the Tree of Life, and I will be doing
some of the Tarot card descriptions on the paths between the sephirot.
Quite a lot of other 'layout' building has been done, but descriptions and
'fleshing out' are needed before the place is truly grown.. If you have
an artistic/creative bent, talk to myself (Moonchilde) or Fr.Nigris online
and we will work out an area you can work on.

Now for the really important information, since you all are just dying to
log on :).  Well the mud is running on seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu port 9393.
If you have never used a mud before, I would suggest finding and reading
the rec.games.mud faqs.  If you have used a mud, then you know the information
required to log in.  The game is not registration, and you need to request
both builder bits and mucker (programmer) bits from the admins.

Please come on by and enjoy yourself.

--Moonchilde, admin Divination Web.

-- 
Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty --Anonymous
Argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours --Richard Bach

Moonchilde/Amythyst/JT Traub ---           jtraub@cmu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: Tarot spread
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:17:22 GMT

tonya@csa2.lbl.gov (Thomas Edward Conlon IV) writes:

>SO my Tarot spread, use it as you will,
>How I do it.

Thank your for sharing this information.

Does it work, and if so, how well?  If it varies in reliability, do these
variances have any connection with external phenomenon - ie, works better
at night, during a waxing moon, for a woman, for a certain type of question,
etc?  Or subjective phenomenae - eg, when you're tired, distracted, horny,
whatever?  I would suggest, if you aren't already doing so, keeping an
accurate log of the readings and circumstances; this could help to
reveal any patterns.

>relate to the pictures.  Only once has one person said they disagreed 
>with the description.  But she agreed for the sake of the reading.

Did this reading differ from the others in any significant way - ie, did
it get better/worse results?

>Then, if they're satisfied that their question has to do with "business, 
>more than love, your driving goals, or pleasure", for example, I 
>continue.  The _GD_ book says to stop for 24 hours, if wrong.

How often has it been wrong?

>And now, since I don't want to get fired yet, and I don't have the 
>formulae for the type of cards and the amount of spaces you count over, 
>I have to say  TO BE CONTINUED!!!!

I look forward to the rest of this; it could prove most helpful.

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: mike.mcaulay@spacebbs.com (Mike Mcaulay) 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Keeping Silence
Date: 7 Jan 93 02:47:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: mike.mcaulay@spacebbs.com (Mike Mcaulay) 


cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:

-> > I must confess my membership in the
-> >less-maundering-more-nuts-n-bolts > minority.
->
-> Hmmm, I didn't know that ritual construction and magical theory
-> weren't "nuts-n-bolts" topics.   One of my favorite old posts was one
-> by Paul Clark (are you still out there?) concerning introductory
-> ritual technique. Very practical and useful, IMHO.

I would be very interested in reading that.  If anyone has it archived
and is willing to to repost it or e-mail it I'd be grateful.

-> Remember, this group has a much smaller readership than the
-> programming groups.  Also, there are *many* different 'schools' of
-> magic around.

Good point.

-> No argument here.  I hope I didn't give the impression of turning my
-> nose up at such questions (or being a 'giggling schoolgirl').

Uh oh, un-PC-remark alert!  Duck!!! :-)

M.
                                                                                                                   
----
SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.
From: mike.mcaulay@spacebbs.com (Mike Mcaulay) 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: RE: KEEPING SILENCE
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:00:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: mike.mcaulay@spacebbs.com (Mike Mcaulay) 

-> Subject: Re: Keeping Silence

cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:

-> Sorry, but I think this business is so subjective, that what works
-> for you has no guarantee that it will work for me.

-> Again, "what I think should work" only applies to me.  Telling
-> someone: "The Star Ruby never worked for me, so it is worthless", or
-> even "The Star Ruby is great!  Try it today!!"  doesn't really give
-> them any useful information.

I see what you're driving at, but you're overstating your case.  Fer
instance: did you understand all of the physics of flight the first time
you boarded an airplane?  I didn't.  I believed what others told me and
lo and behold up into the air I flew.

You are probably aware that as a species we have long since passed the
point where it is possible for one person to assimilate all of mankind's
accumulated knowledge in one human lifespan.  Think about it.

M.
                                                                                                                      
----
SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.
From: eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Looking for info on abortifacents
Summary: Information is freedom
Date: 9 Jan 93 20:26:21 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

>dart@symphony.cc.purdue.edu (Dartanyan) writes:
>
>>	I need any possible information about publicly available abortifacents

Look up Aloe in a good herb book.  Thyagi's references are good places to
start.

In General to the List:
Oh, me and Shava and Joseph are doing fine, and are learning to cope with
all kinds of new things. . .-)  Thanks for all the congrats messages, etc.
We'll post on the continuing magical experiment. . . -)


                        -Papa Eddie
From: markk@cypress.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Keeping Silence
Date: 6 Jan 1993 16:47:03 GMT
Organization: SunSoft South
Distribution: world
Reply-To: markk@cypress.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: sagredo.west.sun.com

>And that, boys and girls, is the reason why most magic is in the sorry shape
>it's in today.  Cf: "I don't really CARE if your program RUNS.  What interests
>me are the *generalities*: what language did you write it in?  how many
>modules did you use?  what sorts of loops did you use?"

You chose the analogy.  Now let's follow it.  I have trained hundreds
of programmers, and I am indeed not particularly interested in whether
or not a program runs.  I am interested in how students conceptualize
the problem to be solved and how they mapped the problem conceptuatlization
into a solution conceptualization.  I am interested in how they moved 
from a model of a solution to an implementation, and what implementation
considerations they pulled in at what steps of the process.  I am 
interested in how they maintained a vision of the program, and what
factors they considered in making their implementation decisions.  I am
interested in how they convinced themselves that the code was correct,
and how they approached testing and failure analysis.  I am interested
in how well they understood the implications of their decisions and
how well they could anticipate the effects of purturbations in the problem
to be solved.

Get these things right and the program WILL run.  Ignore these things and
it will only be through dumb luck that you get your program running.  My
goal as a teacher is not to produce running code.  It is to produce people
who can, with confidence, solve new and difficult problems in good fashion.

Your questions "how many modules and what kinds of loops" are not theoretical
ones.  They are trivial numerological ones.  They are precisely what you
asked for (details of the rituals).  If you do not understand what real
underlying theory is, it is not surprising that you do not appreciate why
some people think it is important and worthy of discussion.

The analogy with magick is not perfect, but neither is it a bad one.
From: tonya@csa2.lbl.gov (TONYA PUONCEY)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Berkeley O.T.O.
Date: 4 Jan 1993 12:43 PST
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.197
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Dear Everyone...

      Frater Ion of the Monterrey Lodge/Camp (O.T.O.) has told me that 
there is a Lodge operating out of Berkeley, or somewhere thereabouts.  I 
am interested in petitioning for initiation, and he would sponsor me in 
my application.  Monterrey is a little too far to go except for big 
rituals.  Can you help me out?????  Thanks!

Respectfully,


Thomas Edward Conlon IV 
Temp. address:   TONYA@LBL.BITNET
From: Laura.Gowdy@launchpad.unc.edu (Laura Gowdy)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: abortifacient post
Date: 10 Jan 93 02:02:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service


	So much for learning to post on the first try.  Ate my 41-line
post and spit out the pieces. This is a test.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Xref: sparky alt.magick:6722 alt.satanism:2964 alt.pagan:15179