From: MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman)
Subject: Re: FAQ: The Record Thing
Organization: Wayne State University, C&IT
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:38:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.181152.3433@m5.harvard.edu>
borden@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Dave Borden) writes:
 
>     [...]
>That's just an excuse for not trying to get it right.  Of course there need
>to be improvements - but it must be acknowledged that many of these improvements
>will need money.  Is it possible to redirect funding that already exists
>without providing more funding?  Maybe, though I tend to doubt it.
 
Uh, how about an example of exactly what these needed improvements are?
I'm afraid simply postulating the existence of needed improvements does
not establish their existence, let alone justify their continued funding.
>>
>>>educational system that require money.  Many school are understaffed, and the
>>
>>Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Average class size has fallen continuously in the
>>post WWII era. We used to have excellent public schools with high achievement
>>by students and 50+ students in a classroom. Now a class with 30 is
>>"overcrowded."
>
>Like it or not, people have changed, and for reasons that are not well
>understood, smaller class sizes seem to be needed.  It probably varies
>with the subject as well.
 
Pardon me, but where in the world did you get such a silly notion as
that? "smaller class sizes seem to be needed.." By whom? Must have your
data from Joyce Borther's favorite journal, the Journal of Recent Studies.
You know, "...recent studies have shown that...."
 
This is the undergraduate's misperception of the content of academic
debate- just postulate something in writing, and it takes on the force
of revealed truth. No, grownups do it differently. No, wait- you're
an Ed major, right?
 
>>
>>>teachers are often underpaid.  I met a high school teacher who told me that
>>*****************************
>>
>>Not in most states, where they are very well paid indeed. We've already
>>had numbers published here on that. Where are yours?
>>
>In my high school, there were a number of very good math and science teachers
>who liked teaching, but needed to earn more money, so they left their
>teaching jobs and got jobs in industry (so they could put their children
>through college - there's another serious lack in educational funding).
>There was an excellent history teacher, who loved teaching, and he was
>considering going into real-estate full time, because he really needed to
>earn more money, to put his kids through college.  (I think he did stay, and
>only did real-estate part-time.)  But it's true that there is a trend these
>days toward paying math and science teachers more.  But that's not sufficient,
>if you don't hire enough of those people (see my next paragraph).
 
So even though teachers are making, in poverty stricken Detroit, between
$30,000 and $50,000 a year for 9 months work, they're all underpaid?
Your argument is that "a number" of teachers left your high school for
more lucrative professions (the number is unspecified- one? Two?) and
another thought about it, but apparently didn't leave after all.
 
Are you arguing that this left your school completely unequipped to deliver
quality education? How much should we pay teachers? Enough to keep them
from being tempted into, say, medical careers? How much is it worth to keep
those two theoretical teachers (out of how many? 100? More?) from leaving?
 
You probably didn't read the postings that mentioned that private school
teachers make less than public school teachers, and that private school
posts are greatly sought after. You probably don't know that there is no
shortage of candidates for public school teaching posts either. It's a
very lucrative career. As a matter of fact, the teachers in Detroit are on
strike right now. Money isn't the big issue; it's accountability. They don't
want to be tested on their competence to teach their specified fields.
>
>>>he has to have all different levels of students in his physics class, because
>>>the school can only afford to have one physics class.  Now don't tell me that
>>>this is a situation conducive to effective teaching.  It's a poor situation,
>>
>>It's also a rare exception.
>
 
>No it is not a rare exception.
 
Ah, the devestating proof by blatent assertion! Can you back up this
simpleminded gainsaying by citing a significant number of classrooms
where this is the case? Let me guess: "oh, lots"
 
>>
>>>because you'll either have the slower students in over their heads, or you'll
>>>have the brighter students sitting there bored out of their minds, or both.
>>>The only way to effectively teach the subject is to have different sections
>>>for different levels, and to have that you have to pay the teacher to be
>>>there for more than one class, and to do that you need to SPEND MORE MONEY.
>>
>>You're describing one teacher's story about one classroom and then arguing from
>>that that we need to increase spending everywhere? Sorry, doesn't hold water.
>
 
>We have to increase spending in situations like those.
 
Just "increase spending"? Does it matter where we spend it ;-) ?
 
 [...]
 
>>All your arguments are completely without merit, without substance, and
>>contrary to the data quoted in this forum and elsewhere. Either find some
>>real numbers or find some new arguments. Sorry about that.
>
>I may not have figures on hand, but my arguments have plenty of merit and
>substance, unlike yours.
 
Now I know we're dealing with a Harvard undergraduate.
 
I suppose you think arguments like "No they don't" have substance? As opposed
to my mere citing of numbers, that is. Or perhaps you think that emotion
can be equated with logic in debate. Sorry to be so logocentric- I
realize it's out of fashion, and all.
 
Arguing with this kid is, frankly, likely winning a philisophical argument
with a gerbil. It's not terribly challanging, but it does support the
various arguments about the poor level of education that students are
entering college with. This kid has no idea what constitutes proof or
argument. He thinks an argument has "substance" because it's obvious to
him. He has no numbers, but contests public salary data.
     [...]
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 Michael Joseph Edelman           Wayne State University
 medelma@cms.cc.wayne.edu         Computing & Information Technology
 mje@pookie.pass.wayne.edu        Detroit, Michigan
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