From: f43703a@nucc.cc.nagoya-u.ac.jp (SUPRATIC GUPTA)Reply-To: <f43703a@nucc.cc.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: [None given] Conversion out of Islam?
Date: 19 Nov 1992 00:30:27 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

I will be gratful if you submit this to SRI, I found a problem in
submitting it from my site. I trust that you will do.

From: ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie
Message-Id:  <9211171841.aa16545@longvalley.dsg.cs.tcd.ie>

In soc.religion.islam you write:


>Can any one tell me where it is writen in Quran that a 
>Muslim cannot convert to other religion? 

Yes: " Surely, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam, and whoever
comes with a religion other than Islam it will not be accepted, and in
the hereafter, he will be among the loosers"

There are many other verses, that consider conversion out of Islam as a
big loss in the next life, but there is no specific punishment described
in this life.

>Can any one
>enlighten me why (Some wrote so) that all muslims should
>kill a person who has come in and out of Islam 3 times?
>Is it written in Quran?

No Muslim is supposed to do any thing to another Muslim for whatever
action he does. He can report him to the state, and it is the
responsibility of the state to apply any punishment.

Prophet Mohammed (saw) said: The judge if he did a mistake in giving
mercy to some one is better than being right in applying a serious
punishment.

He also said: Avoid applying penalties by trying to find execuses.

Really, I got frustrated when Muslims start talking about matters that
do not concern them. 

The matter you are talking about is addressing the law in an Islamic
state. Now we are not in that position, we should take care of 
ourselves as individuals, and consider our duties to Allah and to the
other people, and we should bear in our mind that Allah forgives our
shortcommings when they are between us and Him, but does not forgive
some thing between man and another man unless the other man forgives
from his heart.

About the validity of the condition if a Muslim reverts from Islam three
times then he should be killed, it looks strange.
It is strange because, if the law in the Islamic state specifies that
kind of punishment, why should any person try to challenge the law in
this way unless he is either insane, or a real enemy of Islam, and he is
ready for the challenge!?

>How do a person become Islamic????

1- When he declares that he is a Muslim ( saying Shahadah ).
2- Committing himself to and accepting all the consequences of his
declaration.
3- and submitting himself as a member in the muslim (community/
group/state) having the same rights and giving the same duties as the
others.

>If your son doesnot say that he is your son, then does
>it mean that he not your son. Just because some one
>doesnot beleave that Mohamad is a Prophet, still follow
>every thing he said is a non-muslim. I know that this is
>written so in Quran (Obviously because Mohamad conved it)
>Can just one sentence of mouth be make so different to
>God. 

I think you are confused between the word Islam which means submission,
and the word Iman which means belief.

What you say with your mouth is declaration that makes you Muslim in
the sight of the other Muslims, ( you can say joining the party of
Muslims). But whether you believe or you don't believe is something which
is only known to Allah. 

Among the Muslims there are many hypocrites, many non-believers, many
liars, but only Allah will charge them for that. 

>Do you really beleave that God will send me to hell
>just Because I said that I don't care to know if Mohamad is
>a prophet or not. Please note that I had never said Mohamad
>is not a Prophet. I said I don't care. But I fully respect
>him. 

I personnally sympathise with you, perhaps you ecountered examples of
bad muslims ( unfortunately could be many) so you don't like to join
them as a muslim like them.
But still if you respect the Prophet (saw), and follow him, you must be 
internally declaring Shahadah, but you couldn't find the need to do that
explicitly.

One of the good thing about Islam is that it is a universal religion,
and the best a Muslim can do in his life, is to make clear the message
of Islam to the others, so that they enter into Islam, but of course you
cannot do that if you hide your Islam. A muslim also should not invite
Islam for political reasons, so as to increase the number of his group,
but he should do that out of kindness and compassion to the others to
save then from the events of a mighty day.

>I follow all his words. What a funny thing. Still I
>am not a muslim. 

Are you sure, and why you say that ?

>How do any one really convert to a MUSLIM. Just by words.

Yes, but that means nothing in the sight of Allah.

>Hold a sword, make him say that he believes so. Then again
>hold a sword to say the reverse. So he has converted 3 times.
>Then Kill him???????

Have you encounterd such a case, ( I mean yourself ), and do you believe
in that?
Do you think Islam which is described in the Quran as mercy for mankind,
can be pictured in this way.
Even if it happened, it is not Islam. True Islam is what is described in
the Quran and exemplified by the Prophet (saw), any thing other than
that is not Islam. Islam is not what the so called muslims do.

But surely you will find few good muslims, and you have to do an effort
to find them, at that point I am sure that you will declare your Islam
because You found a team that you like to join.

>With regards
>SUPRATIC GUPTA

With regards
Ahmed El-Habbash
-- 
Ahmed I. El-Habbash, 
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College,
Dublin 2, Ireland.
Tel: office: +353-1-7021524,  home: +353-1-937142.