HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Thursday, 16 Apr 1992 22:22:09 EDT
From: Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Gender Differences (was Re: masonic morals & dogma)
 <92106.163123J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> <1992Apr16.011736.23559@acsu.buffalo.edu>


someone wrote (i deleted the attribution):
]Ideally mixed groups should be as effective as single-sex groups.  But human
]nature being what it is, things often don't work out that way.  A group of
]integrated masons would probably end up like my summer mixed softball team -
]lots of little romances, affairs, squabbles, break-ups, jealousy, hurt
]feelings, taking sides, people quitting, etc...  This is not that bad, for a
]team that's interested in fun not winning.  Doesn't bother the Bacchannals
]since we have a long and proud history of coming in last in the league.
]Might bother the Masons.

having a all-one-sex group doesn't exactly rule that out, you know.
you should see OUR softball league!  B)  bet there are romantic
squabbles, breakups, affaris, hurt feelings, etc. among the masons
too...
                                             -ailsa
Xref: sparky alt.magick:2187 alt.cyberpunk:2134
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Sex Magick
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 11 Apr 92 13:43:07 GMT

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

>tncp9@isuvax.iastate.edu (D. Pendragon) writes:

>>In article <qZuyiB3w164w@netlink.cts.com>, misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson) writes:

>>>Why do you want to practice sex magick?  

>>Why not?
>Because sex is a lousy reason to learn magic.  Sex magic doesn't do anything
>(except play with your head) if you are not already experienced with magic.
>Most folks who want to learn sex magic (who are not learning it as a later
>step in learning a whole range of magical techniques) are jsut looking to
>make sex more exciting.  If you need to make sex more exciting, you have
>a problem which magic will not fix--it might make it work.  Try a therapist
>or one of the Twelve-step programs which deal with sexual addiction.

hey BA, fuck off eh? where do you get off rendering judgements on other 
people in this manner (oh, I forget, you always have done that ... sorry).

the human asks a simple question and youassume he needs a therapist or a 
twelve step program? how did you get to be such an asshole anyway?

josh
"[BA] says wicca is green and
 fuzzy...sounds like mold."
                        peggy brown
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: kditto@isis.cs.du.edu (Kimborly Ditto)
Subject: Re: Any Ideas on things not understood.
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 01:29:57 GMT

In article <92104.101911CCS105@psuvm.psu.edu> <CCS105@psuvm.psu.edu> writ
s:
>     Things not understood, I have a lot of things to fill in this categ
ry.
>Perhaps this should go on alt. dreams..perhaps not. My question is on di
ferent
>parallel universes, and what happens if you distort them.
>     I have been warned by friends about certain things I do which seem 
o
>distort these parallel universes, takeing into account probability..etc.

>For example, if you dream something, and then change the events when you
find
>you dream is actually taking place.  Or other things which just change w
at
>happens to you in this plain.  My friend went on to say that changes wou
d take
>place, and not for the better, for you to handle.  Needless to say, I'm 
 tad
>bit worried but I do not buy his story.  So if you have any info at all 
n
>parallel plains/universes/whatever your particular terminology, please f
ll
>me in on your opinion, I would really appreciate it.
>     Also, if anyone has any ideas on ward barriers/seals, as in the pro
er
>way to draw them on paper, I would also like.  It seems once again I fin

>myself between two different styles, with both styles claiming the corre
t
>method.  These are things that make life fun I guess.
>
>                                  Gersha,
>
>                                             Smitty.


I have a very interesting book in my room right now that you might want to
read.  It's called:

_Parallel Universes_ by Fred Alan Wolf.  Published by Touchstone Books,
ltd, at $9.95, softcover.  ISBN: 0-671-69601-7

The book describes the theory of parallel universes using quantum
mechanics for the lay-person.  I haven't gotten all the way through it,
but from the sound of your post, you might want to check it out.

Hope I was some help.

Bright Blessings!
--Athena
From: misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Date: 12 Apr 92 15:05:22 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

> is one reason. because I don't like hierarchies. because I don't like oaths
 
Wait a sec...you don't like Hierarchies?  Then how did you become an
expert on self proclaimed expert on Enochian (which is All Hierarchies)?
...you don't like Oaths?  Then how can you undertake any magical operation
over any long term, especially since all magical oaths are basically a
binding of the magician to the fulfillment of a specific goal?
 
m

--                    
INTERNET:  misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!misha
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
From: chroma@hoptoad.uucp (Steve Kudlak)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: BiblioFAQ, Please review.
Date: 12 Apr 92 13:06:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: hoptoad.28712
Reply-To: chroma@hoptoad.UUCP (Steve Kudlak)
Organization: Skyline Genetic Engineering


I'd add to the list of books at least:

"The Cult of Tara" by Stephan Bayer Univ of California Press, 1970

I think I got all that right. This is a very good book, and because

it was written by a non-Buddhist it has the proper detachment! :)


Second best is "In Praise of Tara/Songs to the Saviouress" by

Martin Willson published Wisdom Publications 1986. 



Willson is much more of the "American Buddhist" type and can get
snarly and stuffy in places. Since he is a believer it sometimes
borders on the convince people those other people are wrong, and
he has a little thing with Bayer who he feels translates badly or
harshly. Both give a good idea of what is going on. Bayer does not
tend to hide the heavier handed sides of the Tibetan Religions.

Tara is the Goddess of "Practical Compassion" and has many interesting
stories surrouding her. When teenagers ask me to design rituals for
them I usually give them a Tara Related ritual. A lot of fun and she is
pretty nice too.


				Be Seeing You,
				Have fun,
				Sends Steve


P.S. By describing it well Bayer's book is basically a "roll your
     ritual" book without that being its real intention. Its real
     intention is to be a seriously scholarly study.


Reply To: chroma@toad.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: once again, theory of magick from MinT&P
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 20:34:58 GMT

joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller) writes:

>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:


>>For all newcomers:
>>Not everyone who is a regular poster in this newsgroup agrees with the 
>>material in this excerpt.  As someone else put it: "we are not a monolitic
>>entity."  I do not agree with the way Aleister approaches magic.  I am sure
>>he would not agree with my style if he were still alive and using the net.

>we await eagerly, BA, your theory of magick which (one assumes) will be
>as coherent as crowley's.

>josh


Gods forbid!!  I have repeatedly said that I do not consider magic to be 
anything like a science.  I have never seen a comprehnsive theory of any
art--I am not fool enough to think that I could create a comprehensive theory
of magic, which would require understanding all possible mindsets.  I will
be posting (probably in about a month) an article entitled _Toward a Taxonomy
of Magical Talents_, but that's as close as I'm going to get.  It will not
attempt to explain anything, just create a language of classification which
I find convenient for communication.

BTW, did noone have any comments about my draft reading list for Ceremonial
Mysticism?  Am I going in directions completely away from everyone else in
the group?  Amanda?  Shava?  (I already know that josh would completely rewrite
it. :-) )

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Weird! :-)
From: lapena@athena.cs.uga.edu (Chito Lapena)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 10 Apr 92 14:25:37 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Apr10.122645.22774@gdr.bath.ac.uk> mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.155344.11784@athena.cs.uga.edu> lapena@athena.cs.uga.edu (Chito Lapena) writes:
>>>
>>If you really find the subject of magick fascinating, you wouldn't be
>>bored with some of this newsgroup. Then again you might be confusing magick
>>with box-office effects. One of the credos (which can be found on the
>>opening page of the Musaeum Hermeticum) of magick is that it is 
>>not for the sake of magnificence or sensationalism but for the sake
>>of gaining knowledge and manifesting will on earth. That could get
>>pretty boring if you admit you have nothing to manifest.
>>
>
>I'm sorry if I misled you. I'm not really that into the "magnificence or
>sensationalism" of it, but rather a more personal side.  I really liked
>Crowleys novels "Diary of a Dope Fiend" and "Moonlight" or whatever it was
>called (the exact title escapes me).  I really like stories of magickal 
>experiences, because it adds a personal touch to it.  The cook books on 
>theory and practice don't keep my interest, because they seem to me
>to be cold and distant.   I think I can learn much more from a more
>personal account.  I think its sad that people have to cloak magick in
>so much secrecy.  I'm convinced that it's the secrey that keeps it
>from being practiced more widely, and it also makes people feel more
>threatened by it.

Mystique is a vital ingredient of magick. Magick is operated
in the sphere of illusions. That doesn't mean that everything
is false. Every perception is an illusion as much as a mathematical
formula in physics is an illusion of what it describes. What makes 
a mathematical formula functional is how well it describes what
it claims to describe. Vicariousness is not a functional illusion,
pleasant as it may be. Magick is not for everyone. It's only for the
people who seek it. I've only studied enough magick to know this;
and I give it to you as a freebie: You are the only one who knows
the limits of your will. Take this knowledge and burn it like a
sparkler, or keep it inside like the fire in a furnace or the grains
of the trees.

-chito


-- 

=======================
Allez chercher mon jouet sous le canape.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: emotion & free will (was Re: jB)
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 12 Apr 92 02:28:12 GMT

pautler@ils.nwu.edu (David Pautler) writes:

>BTW, was Mr. Stevens talking about programming an AI system, or literally
>downloading brain impulses to a machine?  I think the possibility of the
>latter is very remote.

I'd be surprised if it happened within the next 20 years. I would be more
surprised, however, if it never happened at all.

josh
From: oispeggy@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 13 Apr 92 00:00:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Apr12.210932.10514@gdr.bath.ac.uk>, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes...
>In article <Gerald_Del_Campo.0031@sorinc.UUCP> Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:
>>In a message dated Sat 11 Apr 92 06:35, Joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (joshua Ge
> 
>Give me a break!  You guys like to go on and on about how magick is a form
>of science and then you are unwilling to present evidence of the results of
>your experiments with it.  Not only that, but you say you can't tell me,
>because then your magick won't work and that it will be "throwing pearls
>before swine."  I've had the same response from quacks and fakes in many
>different dissiplines.  These are just poor excuses that people use, because
>they are afraid of being exposed and unmasked.  Perhaps I should give you
>the basics on the scientific method:
> 
>1)  Come up with a hypothesis
> 
>2)  Conduct experiments.  As a result of those experiments 
>    alter your hypothesis into a theory.
> 
>3) Present your results to the world.  Your results will only be accepted
>when other people in other places can replicate the results of your experiments
>which back up your theory.
> 
>If you refuse to present your results or even your experments in detail, then
>there is no logical or rational reason why anyone else should accept what
>you claim.  
> 
>Since you refuse to present experiments and results, then I can only conclude
>that you are deluded and not to be trusted.

You don't understand what magick is supposed to be.  You obviously 
haven't made an effort to find out.  If you can't be bothered to find out, 
then why bother airing your opinions?  Simply jump to your conclusion that we 
are deluded and not to be trusted, then get lost.  I can live with that.

Don't owe you any explanations.

- Peggy -

Pssst:  Scientists tend to find out what they're talking about before they 
        talk about it.
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 6 Apr 92 22:14:56 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

9204.06


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


The person who started this collection asked:

I was wondering if anyone out there might be brave enough
to share some experiences they've had with ritual magick?


Response:

I'll respond briefly.


You:

Specific topics of interest:


1. What type of ritual and source


Response:

My rituals are usually spontaneous combustions.  I am the source of all 
my rites.  So is Kali-Ma.


You:

2. Did the ritual summon any supernatural entities?


Response:

Most of mine arent' summonings, they are divinations.
Besides, there is no such thing as a 'supernatural entity'.  They're all
natural, in my book.


You:

3. Did the ritual bring about a desired result?


Response:

Yes.  As much as I desired divining, so it brought it about.


You:

4. Finally, has anyone ever run into a black magician?
I'm not certain if they exist.  I've never met one.  There
are constant stories and warnings of them, but I've never quite
met one.  Please don't practice it on me to prove you exist if 
you are one, but please share any experiences you may have had.


Response:

I AM one.  Please don't send me flamemail.  If you can't take the
heat, get out of the newsgroup.  And don't worry, I don't bite.
All rumors about black magicians are false.  If you think there
is such a thing as evil, I suggest remedial philosophy.


Invoke me under my stars!   Love is the law, love under will.


Yours in suspense,

Tagi

(Frater Nigris, O')
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: balticon rendezvous?
Summary: waste of precious bandwidth in the interest of social life...
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:55:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

I'm going to Balticon, the Baltimore SF convention, this upcoming weekend
4/17-19.  Anyone else going to be there, wanna rendezvous?  (or should
that be rendonsnous?  Doesn't have the same ring, somehow...).  Anyone 
know if there's going to be an @party?


-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.cyberpunk
From: flex@camelot.bradley.edu (James Cook)
Subject: Re: Help me to summon a demon! Now!
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 17 Apr 92 04:05:49 GMT

In <57473@cup.portal.com> Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:

>[Someone said I didn't know how to invoke.  I'm trying to prove them wrong.
>What is the most hostile and dangerous Demon that I could conjure?  Got any
>suggestions for names of those in principle power??  I don't want to mess
>around with anything too inconsequential on my way to the top.]

	What about Tiamat or Marduk?  I'm sure they won't even bat an eye as
they obliterate you from the face of the earth.  Now for the list:

Minor Monsters:

Byakhee, Deep Ones, Elder Things, Fire Vampires, Ghasts, Ghouls, Servants of
Glaaki, Great Race of Yith, Gugs, Insects from Shaggai, Mi-Go, Moon Beasts, 
Nightgaunts, Sand Dwellers, Serpent People, and Shataks.

Moderate Monsters:

Chtonians (immature), Dark Young of Shub-Niggurath, Dimensional Shamblers,
Formless Spawn of Tsathoggua, Gnoph-Keh, Hunting Horrors, Lloigor, Servitors
of the Outer Gods, Shoggoths, Star Vampires, and Beings from Xiclotl.

Major Monsters:

Chthonians (adult), Father Dagon/Mother Hydra, Dholes, Flying Polyps, Hounds of
Tindalos, Lesser Other Gods, Star-Spawn of Cthulhu.

Great Old Ones:

Atlach-Nacha, Cthugha, Cthulhu, Cyaegha, Ghatanothoa, Glaaki, Hastur, Ithaqua,
Nyogtha, Shudde M'ell, Tsathoggua, Y'golonac, Yig, Zhar, and Zoth-Ommog.

Outer Gods:

Abhoth, Azathoth, Bast, Daoloth, Nodens, Nyarlathotep, Shub-Niggurath,
and Yog-Sothoth.


Books to consult for summoning:

Al Azif 
Necronomicon 
Cultes des Goules
De Vermiis Mysteriis
Unausprechlichen Kulten
Nameless Cults
Liber Ivonis
Livre d'Ivon
Book of Eibon
The Golden Bough
Witch-Cult in Western Europe
Pnakotic Manuscripts
Book of Dzyan
Azathoth and Others
People of the Monolith
R'lyeh Text
Cthaat Aquadingen
Eltdown Shards
Celaeno Fragments
Sussex Manuscript
Ponape Scripture
Zanthu Tablets
Revelations of Glaaki
Seven Cryptical Books of Hsan
Prodigies in the New-England Canaan
True Magick
Monstres and Their Kynde
G'harne Fragments
Cthulhu in the Necronomicon

Cautions:  When summoning the Hounds of Tindalos, the note about acute angles
should be noted well.  Also, be careful of Yog-Sothoth's touch, it may ruin 
your day.  Other than that, have some fun.  Go wild.
From: Darrin_Hyrup@sorinc.UUCP (Darrin Hyrup)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Girl with a problem
Date: 9 Apr 92 10:07:37 GMT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS

In a message dated Tue  7 Apr 92 07:08, Mayor@ic15.umeeng wrote:

 MDT>  Once when I was near Stonehenge, I bent a coat hanger into the
 MDT> shape of an ancient symbol...when I pointed it at the rocks, I
 MDT> received a great electrical shock.

 MDT>  My mother one time while thinking about her daughter felt a great
 MDT> searing pain on her arm, so she called her.  At the same time, her
 MDT> daughter had just burnt herself on a flaming copy of "The New Age and
 MDT> what it means to YOU".

Rolling on the floor with laughter!

Thanks,

          Darrin

-- Via DLG Pro v0.991

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From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: magick as a science (was: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences)
Date: 15 Apr 92 04:12:35 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

I don't really believe that magick qualifies as an impirical science at
this point in time, any more than I believe, say, that psychology is.
Most applied psychology depends more on metaphor and personal talent
than on even so abstract a science as epidemiology* (which is after all
simply a treatment of large groups of data with the assumption that
they will generalize to an individual scale...).

*as applied to "mental disorders"

Probably I think magick is less so.  In fact, I would be more happy 
calling magick by it's traditional name, which is a "craft."

However, I will point out that the meaning of "science" has changed a
great deal in the past couple centuries.  I believe in the 17th century,
theology was still referred to as "the queen of the sciences."

This is not any explanation of what people in this group say about magick
and science, but it is an interesting bit of perspective.

However, I suspect that I am a Craft person, not a Science person, when
it comes to magick, personally.  I pick things and techniques up from 
other people, I try to generalize skills, I try to refine my technique,
and I try to analyze to a certain extent what makes things work well and
what makes them screw up.  But this is not science, it's just applied
observation.

Nevertheless, I think it is rude to call people charlatans.  Do you feel
in some way that science is threatened by these people?  Or that perhaps
they are a public menace?  Or are you simply trying to show that you can
be at least as bombastic in public as they?

Settle it in email, and send us a summary, please.


-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: mayor@ic15.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Date: 9 Apr 92 02:52:59 GMT
Reply-To: mayor@ic15.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article 21950@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu, miss059@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Pug) writes:

>I would just say that anyone who charges money for magick either needs
>the money real bad or doesn't know enough about magick to be any harm.
>Most of the people I've met that work magick well don't seem to care for
>money type goods. If they need something they have it, but that is
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>different than wanting money. Money is more of a social trophy than a
>material object.
>

Yes, that's EXACTLY it!  I've been following this thread for a while,
not quite sure how I felt about it.  This, however, cleared the fog
in my mind. :)

---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------"What? You mean burning purple urine isn't normal?!?"---------
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Newsgroups: alt.magick