From: kunz@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Thomas Kunz)
Subject: Canada vs. Germany (was: Re: Car inspections..)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 11:07:56 GMT
Organization: TU Darmstadt

I tought it's a good idea to change the subject line. I'm currently a Ph.D.
student at the Technical University of Darmstadt and just returned from a
ten month research visit with the University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
Here is my 2 cents of worth on this question Germany vs. Canada:

In article <15ask8INNiur@fbi-news.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE>, maennig@anton.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Olaf Maennig) writes:
> 
> Maybe some of you remember my posting a few weeks ago when I wanted to know
> what
> to do when emigrating from Germany to Canada. I got several answers and
> want to
> thank all of you. There was a letter in which the author in a way or
> another
> warned me to go, because Canada would be in pretty bad shape with high
> unemployment, technologically years behind Germany, but nevertheless
> Canadians
> should have a less stressful life.
> 
> The following is an extract of what I answered, and I post this now for a
> discussion.
> 
> 
> Well, I don't understand your statement that you Canadians are
> technologically years behind us. You get the same TVs, radios, and HiFis from
> USA or Japan like us. Of course, we have German manufacturers, too, but they
> don't have that much influence. I don't know about Canadian manufacturers.
> Indeed, you cannot get Canadian products in Germany, but I think that's due
> to the fact that the factories are in the States.
> 
> However, in the field of computer science, I must say that North America is
> far in front of Germany. When I see our telecommunication services... it's a
> joke! They proudly present us that it's possible now to make a phone
> conference. But not as anybody's will, you have to announce your wish, and
> then you will get a date when it's possible ...
> 
> I heard of high unemployment, but that depends on the province. I don't think
> that there is so high unemployment in the Western provinces. However, I think
> as a computer scientist, it should not be such a problem to find a job.

This is pretty optimistic. Given the current recession in Canada, it's for sure
tough to find an academic job. And some of the biggest employers (BNR, IBM,
....) are not hiering that much any more either. But I have to admit, I don't
know much about the west (ALberta, B.C)

> 
> I can only agree to your German friend's statement. Life IS less stressfull
> than here. It becomes worse and worse every month that passes by. The reason
> are the many people coming from Eastern Europe. You can see the narrowness
> everywhere: in the streets, on parties, at work. You almost have no chance at
> all to find a new dwelling. To buy a car, no matter whether it is used or
> new, presents to be a gamble. Getting a job after your studies or your
> apprenticeship is almost only possible with what we call here vitamin C
> (connexions). If you want to go out in the evening on a sunny day, e.g. to a
> bar in the open air, then you will have to expect to wait 30 minutes before
> you get a table. 

Again, tough luck. Go to Toronto, Montreal, even Kitchener/Waterloo and you
find plenty of places you have to line up for. One of the most impressive 
memories for me was to stand in line for over half an hour in WINTER to get
into the Hardrock Cafe in Montreal. And don't even try to get a table at one
of these restaurants close to the skydome in Toronto in the hours immediately
before a baseball game.

> Going for a walk in a park on a Sunday turns out to be a
> marathon walk with lots of other people.
> I think they all have the right to enjoy their lives, but our country is much
> too small for those masses of people! In an area, as big as Calgary, live at
> least 5 times more people here than there. This is only estimated, but take a
> look into a geographical book and compare the densities of population for
> Germany and Canada...

It might only be an estimate and typically things like this are screwed up.
Given that the vast majority of Canadians live close to the southern border
in a few mega-centers (Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, ....) and that you will l
ikely only find a job there, your everyday life will be as crowded as living in
Munich/Frankfurt/Ruhrgebiet/Berlin in Germany. Maybe even worse because 
Canadians "waste" space much more (that's my subjective impression, the same
is true for USA cities - the suburbs stretch out for miles/kilometers without
end. It takes up to one HOUR to pass through Toronto in heavy traffic).
And while it is true that Canada has some great scenery, it may take you a
while to get there. Thry driving to the nearest cottage area on Victoria day
weekend or thanksgiving. This will be a bumper-to-bumper ride.

> 
> In Canada, if you live in a big city, you will only have to drive for a short
> while, and then you are so alone that you are almost a hermit.
> 
> This came up to my mind in the last two years, and I looked onto a world map
> to find out where to go: Asia? Not at all, due to the language(s) and I don't
> like the culture that much. Africa? That's not my preference: heat, poverty
> and war. If the wish not to get involved there is okay or not, is another
> thing... South America? Almost like Africa plus political difficulties.
> Remains Australia, Europe and North America. The best is to live where I
> don't have that much problems to fit in (language and culture), although I
> can imagine to live in some parts of Northern Europe. I don't know much about
> New Zealand or Australia, but due to the Ozone hole that doesn't seem to be a
> good choice. By the way, additionally I heard much bad things about Australia
> what concerns the people. USA? I don't like them very much (world police :-().
> 
> Having all these aspects in mind, Canada seems to be the best choice to me.
> Okay, the Canadians don't have that much influence in world politics, but
> that doesn't matter to me. I find other things more important.

Now that's pretty inconsistent. How can you not like the USA for their world
politics when at the same time you state that you don't care about world
politics. That seems like a fake argument to despise the US of A.

> 
> 
> I hope there will be a discussion about that, because I want to see and learn
> about the Canadian facts.
> 
> Bye,
> 	Olaf
> 
> 
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      _                   Department of Computer Science IV
>     / \     |\/|         University of Dortmund, Germany
>     \_/laf  |  |aennig   e-mail: maennig@siggi.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me add some points of my own:

1) Canada does have some great scenery (but see above)

2) Canadians in general seem to be much more open towards different cultures
   than Germans. I even see the constitutional debate in this aspect. At least
   Canadians agree that there are legitimate concerns that are raised by Quebec
   and the Natives. Such issues are hardly a topic in Germany, not even in
   places where you have a big percentage of foreigners. Even if someone is
   born in Germany and has lived here for all of his life (but his parents are
   foreigners) it'll be hard for him to become German. But all these people
   who claim to have German ancestors but in some cases neither speak German nor
   know much about Germany are made Germans in no time, including all the rights
   and advantages that come with it.

3) World politics are important to me, and I think that Canada plays a better
   role here than Germany. Canadians do have a pretty good track record for
   their partcipation in UN peace corps missions. The new, unified Germany tries
   to play a world role similar to the  one of a superpower. And I think this
   is a pretty big mistake. The world doesn't need superpowers who throw their
   weight around to jokey their positions but more "water-carriers" who do have
   the ressources and determination to fullfill the decisions made by the UN
   or comparable international organizations.

4) What bugs me most in Germany right now is that everyone seems to be in an
   anxious mood. The second day I returned from Waterloo I sat in a street cafe
   just to have someone to the right complaining about his boss and someone to
   the left bitching about her parents. And this seems to be the general mood
   right now. Bitch and complain about everything: reunification, asylum, work
   conditions, taxes, parents, bosses, parties, politicians, ..... you name it.
   It is very hard to have an unemotional, fact-oriented debate going on about
   anything. Even my mom starts using expressions like "ticking time-bomb" and
   so on.

5) But there are some (few?) positive things about Germnay too. A still some-
   what mor healthy economy (for those in the West) with better job
   perspectives. The potential (but only the potential) to play a very
   strong positive international role. No big brother to the South who is
   so overpowering (appears so overpowering?).  

-Thomas Kunz
 Technical University Darmstadt
 Federal Republic of Germany


Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:5205 soc.culture.indian:25721