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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:46:45 -0800
From:         CAROLYN DAWNELE KELLER <CKELLER@BESTLA.CALSTATELA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: President Clinton

I to am glad that the fight is over and we have a new President.  I just
wish that the media would have given a truer impression of Bush.  It seems
like the American people wanted a scape goat and he was it.  It is easier to
blame someone else rather than ourselves.
The world is changing and fast.  I pray to God that Clinton makes the right
choices because they will affect millions.
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:02:00 EST
From:         PDAVIS@LIUVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Janet,

I'm on the receiving end of racism.  If I'm looking for work and the policy
is not to hire black people, (Recently a New York City employment agency
was proven to be systematically screening out black applicants)  OR I get
to a job interview and latter discover that I've been turned down for a
less qualified white applicant, the NET EFFECT IS THE SAME.  So, to me it
there is no difference.

I would like to raise the question of how "African Americans" are portrayed
in the media?

The original message cited examples of intentional lopsided coverage of how
African Americans are portrayed in the media.  Again, I LIVE in Crown Heights
Brooklyn, NY.  I happened to be in another city talking with someone who
works at a TV station where the people who produce the news were told in
no uncertain terms, not to air footage of Jews attacking African-Americans.
The reverse images could be aired.

Can we agree that it at least looks a little strange that in
cartoons, most of the bad guys have brown skin?  Doesn't it look a little
strange that on TV dramas, an inordinate number of criminals have brown skin?
Doesn't it look a little strange that so many of the criminals on the
nightly crime shows have brown skin?  Does not it seem equally strange that
when we talk about teen pregancy and "entitlement" programs that more times
than not the finger is being pointed at brown people?  Speak to these issues
please.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must
be a duck?  Or doesn't it at least strangely ressemble a duck?

Injustice anywhere is a treat to justice everywhere.  It the public (media
informed) debate around entitlement programs is framed in terms of
African Americans being the major receivers, then our improverished white
sisters and brothers (and don't kid yourself, there are lots of them
and will be more as the economy continues to restructure itself) will suffer
as well.

By the way, what's the difference between bailing out the Savings and Loans and
and entitlements?

It appears to me as if the media conspires to distort the facts about
the lives of people of color and many other issues.  The net effect is that
we all suffer in one way or the other.

I say that in no uncertain terms, the media conspires against African-Americans
and that until we all recognize that, we will fail to see the larger
threat that it poses to everyone.

What do you say?

Peace,


Phil
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 14:49:24 -0400
From:         MISIMC91@SNYONEVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Time to introduce yourself!

Hey I'm in New York State is'nt that the same state your school is in. I could b
   e very wrong but I took A guess. If I'm wrong it would'nt be the first time
just ask my girlfriend. Sorry for assuming you know what that does.... well
hope to talk more soon , see ya Mark Charles.
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Date:         Wed, 20 Jan 1993 23:37:36 -0600
From:         CHELAGOI <CHOWNING@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Zahir, a test of the media

Quoting the State Department stats in the press is one thing screaming at
the world with six inch letters on the front page of the morning paper is
quite another.  Will the press put the killings in Bosnia on the
front and center burner?  Me thinks not, not until outside forces make it
somehow the right thing to do.  The same was true concerning Somalia.
Thousands were dying each day and the press yawned at the whole matter.
They knew about it, but the gatekeepers decided (for reasons under
discussion on this list) to knot bring it into the faces of the public
so that they could not hlep but see it and help.
You wanted some hard facts.  There they are. You brought up Bosnia and
I Somalia.

Sure, it is not not true that the press manipulates everything.  There are
however some very severe issues which are "intentionally" played down.

--- Chelagoi

BTW, lets keep the discussion right up front here. IMHO
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:17:36 -0600
From:         Thomas Thole <TTHOLE@TINY.COMPUTING.CSBSJU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Inauguration prayer

The matter of the separation of church and state takes many forms.
Obviously, on what might be called the symbolic level, there seems not
to be a separation of religion and the state.  Thus we have prayers
at inaugurations, "In God we Trust" on our money, etc.

However, being somewhat on the inside of a religious non-profit
organization, I can assure you that the Internal Revenue Service,
Immigration and Naturalization Service, and other governmental
agencies clearly draws a legal line, and a religious institution
had better stay on its own side.

Tom
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:36:28 -0500
From:         "dougl..apparently" <stchri@MCMAIL.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Bill "I have a dream" Clinton

Back during the campaign, Bill C. appeared at a gay and lesbian fund
raising function and told them "I have a dream and that dream includes you."

Part of the dream was the lifting of the official ban on gays in the military.

We have watched this week as Clinton ans slow - ever so slowly - back away
from that firm promise under pressure from the military - who have trotted
out the same arguments used to exclude blacks and women [consider the
semiotics of General Powell delivering that kind of  objection to Pres.
Bill] - under pressure from republicans who are trying to see how far they
can make Clinton back up [especially after his humiliating retreat on the
Baird nomination] - and under pressure from his own party in both the
congress and the senate [fearing what, I wonder, that perhaps govt in
america may actually begin to work.]

What is lost in the shuffle is the simple fact:

        This is not an issue of military efficiency or of religious values..

        It is a civil rights issue. Period. End of story.

If it were any other group being discriminated against in this manner,
Bill would have no problem signing an executive order that would be
applauded by everyone. [Let me take that back - if the group in question
were women, the same people now objecting to lifting the gay ban would
just as vocally protest the admission of women.]

It sickens me to watch the so called shining light of democracy and
freedom playing these sorts of games with peoples lives and liberties.

this is the example america wishes to export to the world as the best
democracy has to offer?

the white house and the hill have been swamped with calls protesting the
lifting of the ban. the forces of hatred and fear that almost won the day
in Oregon, came close to winning the day in Colorado and are now flexing
their muscles in 12 more states are bringing pressure to bear on Clinton
and on the representative govt to sustain a system of active and
unjustifiable discrimination.

gays and lesbians are, before  they are anything else, citizens. when
their rights are curtailed, everyone's rights are curtailed.

your supreme court has ruled that the ban is constitutionally
objectionable. your president has made it clear he feels the ban cannot be
sustained, that it is a fundamental violation of civil rights.

And it is very possible that the ban will continue - catering to bigotry
and hatred and fear - rather than responding to the truly democratic
principle of liberty and justice for all.

Dougl...
        Gay by nature...queer by choice


                Postmodernism is not an idea, it is a place.
        =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
        douglass p. st.christian  << stchri@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca >>
        =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:27:19 -0700
From:         "Janet C. Constantinides" <CONSTANT@CORRAL.UWYO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Phil,

I don't know what happened to your original message, but I for one didn't
get it.  Also, it's important to realize that people receive the same
message (assuming that they DO receive it!) at different times and then
they may not read it for a while or answer it right away, etc.  So there
are sometimes some interesting "time lags" between parts of a "conversation."

I would like to ask a couple of questions (not because I don't agree with
you or want to support the status but because I would like more information
about what you said, Ok?):

When you say that racisim was (is?) a conspiracy, are you saying that
there is a group of people actively, consciously involved in promoting
racism?  Or do you mean that people are prejudiced and act accordingly?
For me, there is a big difference between these two.  Is there for you?

Do you assume that when anyone questions another person that that
means that the person must hold an opposing view?  If that's the case,
how can discussion take place?

Maybe you've already clarified this in a later message, which I haven't
yet received.  If so, sorry.

Janet C. Constantinides         CONSTANT@UWYO.EDU
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:25:34 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

Sorry if I seemed unwilling to address the problems which exist for what
you call "mass democracy".  Our recurring differences here seem to me to be
that to some of the discussants the existence of a problem which has not
been "solved" or which persists in contributing to more problems is some
kind of proof either that the system itself has failed or that its component
parts are incompatible in a way which disqualifies it.  Since such a "proof"
works nowhere else, I don't know why there is an attempt to apply it in
analysis of societies.  The existence of flaws is first and foremost an
invitation to a study of their cause and an attempt, after the study, to apply
the remedies which suggest themselves as most likely of success and least
likely of contributing additional problems.  Of course any nihilist philosophy
rejects that approach.  I don't know why nihilists bother to eat breakfast,
injesting substances which will cause deterioration of bodily tissues and in
ways which are most unfair and unequal.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:41:05 GMT
From:         Gerry Callaghan <eeigcn@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Re: President Clinton

Might I take the opportunity of the presidential inauguration to send
best wishes to the people of the United States and especially the American
members of this list.

We have spent a lot of time recently arguing about democracy and communications
and never reached a conclusion. However, through all the razamatazz and
confusion the American people did elect a president. That, in all its
imperfections, is something to celebrate.

The world has changed a lot and the old certainties have been replaced by
new confusions. Maybe its an illusion brought about by media exposure but
I think that Clinton may be able to deal with these issues in a more open
and better way.

Best wishes
Gerry

Gerry Callaghan                         Email:  eeigcn@eeiuc.ericsson.se
Ericsson System Expertise               Phone:  +353 902 74601 ( work )
Cornamaddy                                               85054 ( home )
Athlone
Co. Westmeath
Irish Republic
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 08:50:05 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

Dougl,

I really do not have the answers, Dougl.  All I was saying was that if our
laws are selectively applied (as they are) then there is little equality...

zahir
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:21:00 EST
From:         PDAVIS@LIUVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Zahir,

I'm new to the Internet and a bit confused about using this list.  I'm not
sure who sees what, what's addressed to who and if some of my messages
have been seen.  I'm also confused about what some people expect with regard
to the form in which a subject is to be discussed.

In the media discussion, I believed that I posted a message about the
RACISM IN THE MEDIA as it relates to how African Americans are portrayed in
the media.  In the message I pointed out several personal observations
(measured events for the scientist in the crowd) of how people working
for the media actively conveying only a negative image of African Americans.

I noticed on XCULT that right when I posted this message, someone suggested
that it was time for the conversation on the media to stop.  Again, I'm not
sure if the message was seen by all the list users,  I just wonder why no one
responded to my observation about racism in the media, and if it was seen,
was the suggestion to end the discussion, simply the standard repsonse of
so-called liberal intellectuals to any real discussion of the systematic
distorion of images of African Americans in this country.  By the way, I've
noticed that most of the villains in cartoons have brown skin, most of the
criminals on crime shows have brown skin, most of the criminals on the
TV dramas have brown skins and a disporportionate number of the people
that are executed for crimes in this country have brown skin.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck
it must me a duck.

Returning to the question of conspiracy in the media, I saw someone point
out that conspiracy requires a high degree of complicity.  I admit that this is
only an analogy, but here goes.   The systematic exploitaion of African-
Americans in this country (for now I'll discuss it prior to the civil rights
act) required a high degree of complicity that was both spoken and unspoken.
No one denies that racism existed in this country and that it was widespread.
Racism was a conspiracy.  Racism was profitable.  By analogy, I suggest
that a democracy that permits capital accumulation is a conspiracy and
the media plays a major role in maintaining and perpetuating capital
accumulation.  I'm not sure that everyone in the list will see this message
so I will not elaborate.  In addition, given that there seem to be such
staunch defenders of the status quo, that subscribe to this list,
I doubt that elaborating on it will do much good.

On a separate matter, I saw someone say that someone was taking stuff
personally.  Again, I'm new to this list, but I take everything personally.
I take my life personally and I take any assaults on anyones life
personally.  I take the current political and social order, personally.

Let me know what you think.

Peace my brother,

Phil
Brooklyn, New York
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:02:34 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Media/communicatioons

I have spent almost my entire life living in multilingual environments,
speaking my native language less than half the day for several years of
that time.  I have routinely worked in two or more foreign (to me) languages
at a time.  I have conducted informal and formal negotiations in which we
each spoke our own languages at roundtables with everyone joining in.  If
you and I are having a difficulty in communications, and we are, it is not
because I seek to take advantage of some difference when you do me the much
appreciated courtesy of using my language.  It is not that I cannot "see
beyond the "communication" errors see our ideas and debate
".  Janet has pointed out rather tidily one of the problems that makes
discussion based on argumentation virtually impossible and even formal
debate with its limiting positions quite difficult with you.  Once a position
is identified as dogmatically held, no matter how reasonable sounding the
invitation to discuss which precedes it, there is not much point for either
party in attempting to discuss that dogma.
  Perhaps one thing which might help you, not change your opinions on anything,
would be the acceptance (try it at least) of the notion that most people in
this culture who disagree with you have absolutely no desire to "void" you,
and I've run through all the possible interpretations of the expression which
occur to me and I am quite certain that I have accurately expressed my feelings.
Now, if I have had a little fun with you in the process, that too is because it
fits my mood better than what seems to fit yours, going back to some of
Janet's observations.  We share, you and I, limitations.  We each have our
own.  If either one of us improves, I gain.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 10:09:07 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

Jon,

Among other things, you write that "the existence of flaws ......
is an invitation to study of their cause and an attempt, after the study,
to apply the remedies which suggest themselves as most likely of success
and least likely of contributing to other problems......"

There have been studies after studies authorized by congress and completed
.....the GAO in particular has done many and suggested many remedies...
a study was also done about what happens to these studies and the answer was
that they go largely ignored....

We have come up with a system (I repeat for the nth time) that cannot
implement changes that result in good for the people if they also
result in negatives for the administration, corporations, campaign
contributions and so on....

A few media outlets on the far right or far left will report these
studies from time to time.... most get lost.....  Some are used by
politicians to help get votes (Clinton on national health, environment
issues, gays in the militiary) and upon reelection are soon forgotten....

zahir
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:24:00 EST
From:         MFTAN@EMERSON.BITNET
Subject:      Happy Chinese New Year

For all who celebrate this occasion, have a HAPPY AND PROSPEROUS CHINESE
NEW YEAR. "GONG XI FA CHYE!"  It's the Year of the Rooster.

Fong
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:03:53 -0700
From:         "Janet C. Constantinides" <CONSTANT@CORRAL.UWYO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Zahir,

If the media is as biased and controlled as you see to want to believe that
it is, then why CNN report on polls showing the most people (your description,
not mine) want gun control and health insurance, etc?

I remember you asking a young man recently (sorry, I can't remember his
name) to please stop trying to convince everyone that Islam is the only
religion.  Now I'm asking, please, will you stop trying to convince us
all that your view and only view  on this matter is correct?

I joined this list because I was hoping for something more than the
freshman-level rhetoric that has filled the screen recently.

You certainly are entitle to your beliefs.  And you certainly have made
them known to the rest of us.  Enough, already.

Janet
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:34:06 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: President Clinton

On some domestic issues, the president can make a little difference but
on most, be it Health Insurance or (given the deficit) spending, the
corporate interests and PAC's rather than what's good for America will
be able to get through and signed....

In the end, a race car driver will not make a clunker run that much
faster and anybody, Bush or Clinton, cannot make this system run
better.  Its not the people who occupy the office but the system that is
the problem......

As long as a senator needs to raise $20,000 a week to succesfully run
for reelection, what the average man wants or needs becomes irrelevant
if in the process the senator has to go against those who contribute $$$$..

zahir
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 10:43:32 -0500
From:         "Douglass St. Christian" <stchri@MCMAIL.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

Jon:

I found your suggestion that "the will of the people might be subverted by
someone just because he is wiser" interesting.

Do the Americans on this list think of judges holding their positions
because of greater wisdom? Do they see judges as dispensing 'wisdom'?

I ask this because the attitude in Canada is not that judges are wiser but
that they are something akin to statute-mechanics. They know all the rules
because that is their specialty but this knowledge does not confer any
special wisdom on them.


Is this a cross border difference, I wonder. [Note that none of our judges
are elected here - they are appointed.]

Hmmm..

Dougl....
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