HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmanghan@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (I am G!)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Future Temples
Date: 28 Jul 92 07:31:21 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

This article was quite interesting and I wanted to ask a couple
questions:

In article <Jul.22.02.02.45.1992.12586@dumas.rutgers.edu> baresson@cbnewsi.att.com writes:
>Rex mentioned the rediscovery of the ark of the covenant in Eithopia
>and infers that it will probably be brought back to Jerusalem. This may be 
>the case, although I would suggest that its significence should be downplayed,
>because Jeremiah indicates that its importance is past. (Jer 3.16-17)
>I believe that there will be 2 temples built; the Dan 9/ Matt 24 temple and 
>Ezekiel's Temple.

Was the ark of the covenant rediscovered?  When?  
Why do you think that there will be two temples built?

>
>The "Tribulation" Temple
>========================
>
>On the subject of rebuilding the Temple in Israel - An organisation in 
>Jerusalem, the Temple Institute, has made the two-thirds of the 92 articles 
>and vestments that the Bible says were used in the ancient Temple. This with 
>other efforts, is in anticipation of the rebuilding of the Temple and 
>re-establishment of worship there.
>
>
>Barney Resson
>"Many shall run to and fro, & knowledge shall increase" (Daniel)

The subject is quite interesting, and I would like answers backed up
with evidence, if possible, so I can delve into the matter.

Thanks!
JeeMan

"And now I will show you the most excellent way.
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, 
I am only a resounding gong, or a clanging cymbal.  I f I have the
gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love,
I am nothing.  If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender 
my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing....And
now these three remain: faith, hope, and love.  But the greatest
of these is love."--1 Corinthians 12:31-13:3, 13:13
-- 
JeeMan

"Do you want to get rocked???" --Def Leppard
From: jdt@hornet.EBay.Sun.COM (Jim Turner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Qualifications for Elder
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:15:55 GMT
Reply-To: jdt@hornet.EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

In article 5237@dumas.rutgers.edu, mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller) writes:
>
> The argument for apostolic succession is indeed based on Scripture, namely
> the election of new apostles to succeed Judas in Acts. "Lord... Show us
> which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry"
> (Acts 1 24-25).  An argument can be (and is) derived from this requiring
> valid churches to be part of the apostolic succession.
> 

This is the first time I have posted in this group, but I thought I
might comment on the above statement.  First, please note that Judas
forfeited his place as an apostle by the betrayal of Jesus (Acts
1:16,17), and this made it neccessary to replace him in order to fill
the office he had given up (Acts 1:20).  Second, a very explicit
requirement was given that the candidate be one who had been with the
disciples during Jesus ministry, up until the time of His ascension.
This requirment was given to ensure that the candidate was a witness
of the resurrection (Acts 1:22).  I don't think anyone would claim
today that the remaining apostles forfeited their office, nor would I
think that any today would claim to be witnesses of the ressurection
(that is to say they saw Jesus alive before and after His
crucifixion).

Jim
From: barry1@ihlpa.att.com (Barry O Olson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: 17 July prayer warrior update (NEW system!)
Date: 26 Jul 92 20:01:46 GMT
Organization: AT&T

> Virgilio "Dean" Velasco Jr., grad student & roboticist-in-training, CWRU
> 
> "If God does not judge the United States, then He owes |    My boss is a 
>  an apology to Sodom and Gomorrah."   - Billy Graham   |  Jewish carpenter.

It seems you support this statement by Billy. Can you produce
any parallels to justify his emotional words(if he even said this),
ie, not even ten...?

barry--
From: ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Catholics & Faith and Works
Date: 28 Jul 92 06:48:30 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney, Australia

cms@dragon.com (Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith)) writes:

>In article <Jul.20.02.22.23.1992.9268@dumas.rutgers.edu>, mchung@ee.tamu.edu (Maranatha Chung) writes:
>> . But I think the question is the relationship between salvation
>> and work/faith in Catholicism. Does faith alone leads to salvation
>> or does faith leads to salvation which requires the evidence of work?

Some interesting comments from St Thomas Aquinas might shed some light
on faith/works in Catholicism.

(Summa Theologica IIIa Suppla QQ13,14)
"Works done without charity (which is love and friendship existing by grace
between God and man), are not only without satisfactory power, but they
are also without meritorious power". Someone who has not accepted the Gospel
when they should have is in this situation: anything they attempt to do is 
a dead work, in the language of James. (But Jesus is the Good Shepherd.)

"St Augustine says that satisfaction is to root out the causes of sin and 
to give no opportunity for its recurrence." So penance is not a work which
attempts to earn salvation, it is the correct response to God's grace, and
a practical outworking of repentence.  

(IIa IIae 4) "Living faith is the first of all virtues, preceding all others.
As St Augustine says, there are no real virtues unless faith be presupposed.
He speaks of course of supernatural virtues." So again, there is no question
of earning a way into salvation: faith comes first.

BUT, living faith is faith with "an activating extrinsic form." "When charity 
is not in the soul, faith is not operative; it is lifeless."  This doesn't
bear much relationship to what we Catholics are said to believe. Living faith
in Catholicism isn't some dry recital of pointless works. Rather, 
without actions (including the initial mental action of assent) faith is just 
belief. Now in the case of a death bed convert, actions
would be limited to assent: in this case, I don't think Protestants and 
Catholics have any effective differences. But for everyone else, our acts 
embody our faith.

The confusion that protestants have about the catholic position is, I think,
largely because the only model they have of salvation is that of someone who
rejects Christ, then dramatically realizes their mistake and changes. Most
Catholics do not really see themselves as fitting into this. (I do though.)
They might more readily identify with Peter (no indication of rejecting
God before his call) or Nathaniel (who God saw under the fig tree in his
private call to God) rather than Saul on the road to Tarsus.

But, I think, most Catholics would certainly accept that, if you are 
objectively born again (in the catholic sense of baptism [by water, matyrdom 
or intent] + faith), then you would expect this to have subjective 
(emotional) impact in your life as well, though throughout your life rather 
than just once.

-ricko
From: mayne@sun16.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Lord's Table (Part 2 of 2)
Date: 29 Jul 92 07:46:42 GMT
Reply-To: mayne@sun16.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <Jul.28.02.52.49.1992.24735@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> NU169273@vm1.nodak.edu writes:
>           The Lord's Table -- In the Light of the Passover
>           ================================================
>  The broken piece of matzo is called the 'afikomen.'  Jewish
>scholarship suggests, 'This word may be connected with a Greek term
>having something to do with aftermeal entertainment or dessert.'
>Factually, to rabbinic consternation, the three pieces of matzo speak
>of the triune God -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit...

I am not even Jewish and I find this highly offensive. Who are you to
tell others what the symbols of their religion mean? This is just one
blatant example from the long two part post. I believe that
soc.religion.christian and in particular the author of this trash
owe an apology to Jews.

Bill Mayne
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Jesus' favorite Disciple
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:49:16 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <Jul.29.04.06.02.1992.25732@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> cho@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (Il Hyung Cho) writes:
>Going through the book of the Christ never states who is favorite
>disciple is?  Or did he?  Being the character He is, I'm not quite 
>sure of who he (favorite disciple) was/is.  If anyone can elighten

   Looking at the Gospels, one can see that Simon Peter is mentioned as
having greater stature than the other Apostles (i.e. there are numerous
mentions of "Peter and the other disciples."  Also, he is mentioned as the
only one speaking to Jesus on behalf of the other disciples).  However,
that doesn't necessarily make Peter the favorite disciple of Jesus.  The
word "favorite" doesn't really mean this.

   I think then if we want to know which disciple Jesus "liked" the most
personally, we can also get some very strong evidence from the Gospels.
In this case I think that John would best fit this description.  For
example, in the Gospel according to John, he often speaks of himself as
"the disciple the Lord loved."  Also we have Christ's words to Mary and
John, "Woman, behold your son" and "Behold your mother," which indicate
that He wanted to entrust them to each other's care as mother and son
(although we Christians also can heed these words).  I would say then
that John was most likely Jesus' best friend, which should also make him
His favorite disciple.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: golden@math.psu.edu (Oliver John Golden)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: lack of proof
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:53:49 GMT

I'm really touched by your inquiry.  

I've been a very casual observer of this newsgroup,
and have yet to post anything or write anyone on it. 
Sometimes it seems they can lose the spirit of the 
thing.  But I thought I would write you, I guess just
on a whim.

I don't think you'll find proof.

It can be argued that it's reasonable, and that is 
the best way that I have found for looking at what
people offer as proofs.  I'm a math grad, so the area
is naturally of interest to me.

I've been teaching a course called "General Appreciation
of Math" this summer -- it's one of those math for poets
sort of classes -- and we have spent most of our time on
history.  I've come to the following  realization:  just
as the religion once had the trump card in debates, namely
"It's that way because God made it that way,"  now science
has the trump, namely, "if you can't proove it from axioms,
you can't allow it."  This entered our culture again mainly
when Galileo laid down the program for science as we know it.
That is, answer how and not why, and answer by quantification
and deduction.  

>From what I know of Aquinas, he was a big believer that
faith and reason can be reconciled, but one will not do
what the other does.

All that said, I will offer you what I can of proof.

I believe because of individual religous experience.  In
prayer I feel I have had contact with Jesus.  Not in a voice
of thunder kind of way, but just ... contact.  Others, whom
I believe, have had much flashier experiences, and those have
strengthened my faith.  If you are interested, I would 
recommend prayer to you.  It may seem very silly to pray, to try
to communicate, with someone you don't believe in, but I 
would encourage you just the same.

Well, hope I haven't bored you too much.  Good luck
in your quest.  I'll keep you in my prayers.

Peace,
John
From: jmanghan@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (I am G!)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Jesus' favorite Disciple
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:54:00 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

Really, I think it would be ridiculous to point at any one apostle
and say that he is Jesus's favorite.  (With no intent to flame
anyone.)
In James, God tells us not to show favoritism to anyone person more
than another.  Now, that doesn't talk about Jesus and feelings of
who He loved the most.  But I believe that it does apply in a way,
since Jesus lived by His own rules that the Father has given to all
men.

Now, someone might bring up the point that Jesus always seemed to
hang out with Peter, James, and John......at the Transfiguration and
at the Garden of Gethsemene....but I believe that he didn't show
favoritsm, but looked at every disciple's potential and thought that
these threee could lead the others more effectively.  Then, the
other eight could learn from those three.  

JeeMan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And now I will show you the most excellent way.
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, 
I am only a resounding gong, or a clanging cymbal.  I f I have the
gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love,
I am nothing.  If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender 
my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing....And
now these three remain: faith, hope, and love.  But the greatest
of these is love."--1 Corinthians 12:31-13:3, 13:13
-- 
JeeMan

"Do you want to get rocked???" --Def Leppard
From: psb@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Jr Phillip S Buckland)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and the so-called "Christian biblical stance."
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:16:03 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University

>In article <Jul.22.02.38.24.1992.19133@dumas.rutgers.edu> GAVIN@phdlab.commerce.ubc.ca (Gavin Chin) writes:

>>On a different thread, does anyone know FIRST-HAND of any homosexual
>>who, after accepting Christ and becoming a well grounded Christian,
>>renounce their homosexuality and become heterosexual?  If you don't
>>have any first hand stories, can you please share some from RELIABLE
>>sources?

	I have first-hand experience of just such an individual.  The details
	are different than the implication present in your question, and due
	to my promise of confidentiality, I cannot identify the individual
	in question.

	This person became a christian in his teens.  Whether he had any
	homosexual relationships beyond the occasional same-sex experimen-
	tation prior to his conversion, I do not know.  Suffice it to say
	that he was a practicing homosexual _after_ his conversion.  As he was
	preparing for more in-depth service to our
	Lord, he came increasingly under the conviction of the Holy Spirit
	that his behavior was wrong in light of what the Bible teaches.  He
	renounced his practices (and it wasn't easy for him to do this) in
	order to more fully align his practices with what he believed the
	Bible to teach.

	It is his opinion that lack of love and acceptance at home is what
	contributed in a major way to his being susceptible to another male's
	advances.  As of this writing, he has been heterosexual in his
	practices for more than 10 years and is married and has a family.

	There are aspects of his deliverance from homosexual practices which
	he views as providential/miraculous and with which I concur.

	Disclaimer: I am relaying the experience of *one* individual to the
	best of my ability and remembrance without unduly compromising the
	confidientiality I have promised.  Nothing is to be read into these
	words other than what is present, and nothing is to be read out of
	them.  They are to be taken at face-value.

	In His Service -

We read the world wrong		| Phil Buckland
and say that it deceives us.	| psb@eece.ksu.edu
Tagore, from Stray Birds	| psb@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
From: markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com (Mark Christensen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Dear Abby Column
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:37:29 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <Jul.28.03.33.47.1992.25447@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>> >P.S.  Out of curiosity, what is "Dear Abby"'s religious affiliation,
>> >if any?
>> Abigail Van Buren, who was born Pauline Esther Friedman, is Jewish.
>> So whatever God she believes in, I don't think it's the Christian
>> one... :)

It is my understanding that she is Unitarian Universalist (basically
atheist or agnostic...definately humanistic)

[While I don't mind discussion of the issues raised, it's probably
not worth any  more time of the group trying to figure out what
Abby's religion is.  --clh]
From: ceb@dbrus.unify.com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and the so-called "Christian biblical stance."
Date: 31 Jul 92 06:08:27 GMT
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization

In article <Jul.29.03.47.27.1992.25335@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> schnaufe@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Bernard A Schnaufer) writes:
>shrum@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (Ken Shrum) writes:
>
>>The point, then, is whether homosexual inclinations, like lustful
>>inclinations, are sinful.  I'm going to ignore homosexual practice for
>>the moment, since it's beside the point;  if to lust after someone
>>in your heart is to commit adultery, then to have homosexual inclinations
>>is to engage in homosexual practices.
>
>A point of distinction is worth mentioning here.  The homosexual inclinations
>may or may not be voluntary.  A person who is troubled by reoccuring illicit
>thoughts, despite his desire otherwise, is probably not responsible for them
>as is the person who of his own will entertains similar thoughts.  Thus, I 
>think it is wrong to say simply that to have a sinful thought is equivalent to
>committing that sin.  It depends on our response to that thought.

The Catholic definition of sin might be appropriate here.  You commit a sin
when the three conditions are met:

1.  You know that the action is sinful.
2.  You have a choice whether or not to engage in the action.
3.  You engage in the action.

If any one of the conditions is not met, then (technically) you do not commit
a sin.  So wet dreams, for instance, are not sinful.  Of course, incessant
lustful thoughts, even when abhorred, might indicate a psychological problem
which your priest or psychologist might be able to help you with.  If you
resist getting help, then in effect you are choosing to continue with the
lustful thoughts (condition 2) and you are committing a sin, regardless of
how loudly you protest that you can't help it.

Notice how the hetero- or homosexuality of lustful thoughts is completely
irrelevant.


Carrie		ceb@rechenau.unify.com	x6244
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|      A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.  -- Anon.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Fasting
Date: 31 Jul 92 05:58:04 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <Jul.30.03.48.13.1992.11723@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld) writes:
>It seems pretty clear to me that the Bible assumes that Christians
>will fast.  I have also read a couple of articles on the subject,
>particulary in "Celebration of Discipline" that have been enough to 
>convince me that this discipline does have a place in the Christian
>life.  However I also have a doubt in my mind as to whether it would
>be a good thing for me to do:
>
>I have always had a fairly obsessive relationship with food 
>In the past I have done fasts for charity - 24 or 48 hours, and have 
>noticed 2 things from them:
>
>The first is that I find not eating quite easy.  In fact I get quite a
>high out of denying myself food.
>
>The second is that I find it hard to resume normal eating after a
>fast.  I tend to go into a binge/starve cycle that last a few days.
>
>So, is there  anyone out there with a similar history who has learned
>to use fasting as a spiritual discipline ?  Or anyone who tried and
>got burned ?  
>


I tried fasting a few times in my early 20s and found I had much the
same reaction you experienced.  I also have a fairly obsessive
relationship with food.  So I stopped fasting.  I also didn't, at
that time, really understand its connection as a spiritual discipline,
so it seemed fairly useless to do it.  

Last year I went through a period of profound repentence.  Essentially,
God worked powerfully in me to produce the deepest change and growth
I've yet experienced.  For the first time, I felt led to fast as a
spritual discipline.  I only did it twice, each time just for a day,
and always resumed normal eating the next day with no problem.  

My guess is that the difference lay in my motives.  When I fasted ten
years ago, I did so not out of any devotion to God but more as a
curiosity or, honestly, a way to lose weight.  I didn't have the
maturity to know what I was doing.  This past time, I knew I was
engaged in a serious spiritual battle that included major repentence,
and I needed all the help I could get.  Fasting, I knew, was referred
to in the Bible both as a spiritual tool and as a sign of repentence.

I can't say anything dramatic occurred when I fasted last year
(except, of course, the continuing drama of what God was doing in
me), but I did experience a quiet peace.



-- 
===============================================================================
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind.  Or not to have a mind.  How true  
that is." -- J. Danforth Quayle at United Negro College Fund luncheon
From: vm0h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent J. Matsko)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Fasting
Date: 31 Jul 92 05:57:31 GMT

With regard to fasting...

Although I do not have any specific references, there are many books out
on fasting.  Especially juice fasting, which is becoming quite popular. 
Such a book might be useful even if you do not practice juice fasting,
since there is always information about how to break a fast.

For example, it is sometimes recommended to start out with some high
fiber foods (such as a salad), or a simple meal such as yogurt and/or
granola.
And one is encouraged to resist the urge to eat too much too soon.

Such books can usually be found at any good "health food" store.

Vince
From: DSIMON@atlas.nafb.trw.com (D_SIMON)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Where is this verse?
Date: 21 Jul 92 07:43:02 GMT

There is a verse somewhere in the Old Testament that says something like,
"The way of salvation is so simple that even a child can understand it," or
"The way of righteousness is so plain that not even a fool can err therein"
or something like that.  Anyone know where this verse is?
-------
Dan S.

[I can't find anything like that.  The closest I can see is Psalm
19:7: "The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the
testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."  --clh]
From: conan@chaos.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Books on The Passion??
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:09:25 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

In article <Jul.21.03.25.21.1992.6443@dumas.rutgers.edu> ca-mc580@andy.bgsu.edu ([Alvaro C. Calabia}) writes:

>I would appreciate suggestions on books that study The Passion of Our
>Lord from any given angle (prayer or spirituality, tradition, 
>interpretation,...)

St. Francis of Assisi composed an Office of the Passion, to be
prayed during Holy Week.  The text can be found in _Francis and Clare:
The Complete Works_, Paulist Press, 1982.  The passion plays a
central role in the thinking of St. Francis and other references
can be found in his writing and in the classical biographies.

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO