From: Monroe.Thomas@ttlg.UUCP (Monroe Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.misc
Subject: Re: Windows == OS
Date: 29 Aug 92 01:48:00 GMT


  >Ok, if this is 100% correct and there is nothing else to say about
  >windows and virtual-memory then why is it that windows must (and does)
  >return the dos application to the same exact memory location it was
  >swapped out from.  If what you say is complete and accurate windows
  >should be able to move DOS apps all around and have no trouble with
  >them in that respect.

It DOES move DOS apps all around memory with no trouble!  How do you
think you can have more than one DOS box running at once?  Each DOS
box is located in a different part of physical memory, but Windows
"virtualizes" the address space seen by each DOS box so that each DOS
box sees the same addresses.

  >Exactly these are assumptions based on experiments that show windows
  >not to be an operating system.  Although it would do me good to get
  >to know window's specifics but there is really no need.  Let me quote
  >email exchages between me and a microsoft programmer that seems to
  >know the internals of windows well and see what I mean, actually I'll
  >quote them after the next paragraph (wrong! I don't use...) and your response

  >***********************My remarks are in square ([]) brakets **********
  >                                        -------------------
  >        ---------------                 Windows Application
  >        DOS application                 -------------------
  >        ---------------                        |
  >               |                        -------------------
  >               |                        Windows API layer
  >               |
  >               |                        Device drivers
  >               |                        Scheduler
  >               |                        Memory manager
  >               |                        -------------------
  >               |                           |   |
  >               |        ---------------------- |
  >               |        Windows device drivers |
  >               |        ---------------------- |
  >               |                           |   |
  >               |                           |   |
  >        ----------------------------------------------------
  >                            V M M

NA>                                Scheduler
  >                                Memory manager
  >                                Device drivers
  >                                File I/O subsystem (*)

NA>        ----------------------------------------------------
  > [ The comand interperter goes here, and you have more dos
  >   applications at this level, windows relies in the shell's
  >   environement varaibles and many of settings, windows is
  >   already too high up to be an OP, which is supposed to be
  >          the lowest thing interacting with the hardware not
  >   above a user interperter shell (device-drivers are a part of
  >          an opearting system]
  >            |        |
  >            |        |
  >        ---------------------
  >            Global TSR
  >        ---------------------
  >            |           |
  >        ----------------------------------------------------
  >                            V M M (inserts itself in between)
  > [here you go, this is painful, windows sends hooks
  >  to places it should not, it has to do this because
  >         it tries to be more then a shell, which it is much
  >         closer to].
  >        ----------------------------------------------------
  >            |           |
  >        -------------   |
  >        MS-DOS device   |
  >            drivers     |
  >        -------------   |
  >            |           |
  >        ----------------------------------------------------
  >                            V M M (inserts itself in between)   (z)
  > [this is what I mean, it intervines, replaces and
  >  disturbes the whole ms-dos operating system
  >  to an extent that it should take dos out and
  >         replace it completely.  It looks more like an
  >         extension.  Don't tell me layered OS again, no
  >        layered appliations are above an interperter like
  >         command.com and side to side with applications.
  >  The VM operating system is the classical example
  >         of nestted operating system, read my last post
  >         to heath (just because I summarized it there
  >  that is incase you are not farmiler with it)]
  >        ----------------------------------------------------
  >            |           |           |           |
  >        --------------------        |           |
  >        MS-DOS kernel               |           |
  >        --------------------        |           |
  >            |           |           |           |
  >        ----------------------------|           |
  >      VMM (inserts itself in between)           |
  > same
  >        ----------------------------|           |
  >            |           |           |           |
  >        ----------------------------------------------------
  >                                ROM-BIOS

OK, this illustrates my point exactly...  you've shown several places
where the Virtual Machine Manager (VMM) inserts itself between DOS
stuff and other layers.  And, by the way, the DOS application part at
the top of the diagram is NOT referring to a DOS application running
in native DOS, it is referring to a DOS app being managed by
*Windows*.  And where does the VMM come from... well... surprise
here... the VMM is part of Windows!!!  So as the diagram so pointedly
makes obvious, DOS is no longer in control of the machine... the VMM
is... and the VMM is part of Windows.  So, are you willing to finally
admit that DOS is no longer in control of the machine when Windows is
running?  It was you who said in another post that YOUR criterion for
an OS is (paraphrased) the last layer between applications and the
hardware.  The last layer is the VMM, which is part of Windows.  The
diagram has made that plainly obvious... thanks for providing the
diagram... I couldn't have drawn it better myself! 8)

-Monroe

 * OLX 2.2 * "I love cats," Tom mused.

 * Origin: Through the Looking Glass (42:100/14)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.misc