From: nelson_p@APOLLO.HP.COM
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Libertarianism and Government
Date: 13 Apr 92 13:58:33 GMT


From: iccsap020@spacm1.spac.spc.com (David Cohen)

>In article <9204101732.AA00669@xuucp.ch.apollo.hp.com>, nelson_p@APOLLO.HP.COM writes:
>>   (libertarians
>>   should take careful note that a society with a minimal government
>>   but with powerful religious or other cultural forces which restrict
>>   individual choices is NOT a libertarian society).  
>> 
>I would like to know why you say this--this is not a challenge, but
>I really wonder what you mean.   For my part, I think it depends
>on precisely how individual choices are restricted by cultural
>and religious institutions: do they use physical force, or is
>it more along the lines of indoctrination, brain-washing, threat
>of ex-communcation, or is it simply persuasion.

  First of all, I think these are "distinctions without
  differences".   It's not clear to me how a child who has
  been raised from the word "go" within a society whose values
  mandate a particular choice is any more "free" to make an 
  alternative than if he is constrained by law.  Brainwashing
  and social conditioning are extremely effective methods of 
  behavior control, indeed, probably *more* effective than
  any law any government can make.   Moreover, the power of
  the mob, or of social ostracism should not be underestimated.
  Human beings are social animals and they function within
  communities.   If the rest of the community rejects you then
  your ability to function, or even survive, can be greatly
  limited even if no actual force is used.  

  Libertarians have a fixation on government as the prime
  limiter of human liberty.  But the irony of this is that 
  today in the west, we are living in the in the "golden
  age" of government where there are more laws, and more
  government involvement in more aspects of our lives, and 
  more technical, or technological ability to realize and
  enforce those powers than at any previous time in history.
  Yet the average person living in a western nation has more
  practical liberty, i.e., more practical choices of how to
  live, with whom to live, where to live, what to choose for
  a career, and what to do in his spare time, and what
  political, philosophical, or religious views to hold, 
  than at any previous time in history!

  Government has taken over many of the functions previously 
  performed by other institutions:  in the past the church
  (or its equivalent in other cultures) provided social welfare
  and moral guidance (i.e., defined "right and wrong" -- today
  we define these things legalistically).  Business was under the
  control of craftsmens' guilds and merchants' associations.  
  Other functions were performed by families which had far more 
  extensive powers over their members than today (consider the
  Roman right to "expose" unwanted children or the Roman rights
  of fathers over their sons -- and let's not even talk about 
  the rights of girls and young women!)   Other welfare-related
  funtions were relegated to the "community" back when most
  people *lived* in small-tight-knit communities with a shared
  sense of responsibility.  

  Many of these things hardly exist anymore and while we may lament
  their passing in some respects, we should note that they provided
  powerful mechanisms to control individuals' behavior and limit
  their choices. 

  People who think that "government is the problem" ought to 
  study more history and not romanticise about it.  They should
  also make an attempt to study the history of ordinary people,
  and not just that of the landed and powerful, who unfortunately
  get over-emphasized in most historical texts.   

---peter