HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:26:11 GMT

In article <25364@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.075123.12086@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>=>
>=>I guess the kuwaitis had learned of the nature of their "brethren"
>=>during the war - dancing on the rooftops and helping the Iraqis rape
>=>Kuwait tends to antagonize the people you rub it in to. The
>=>Palestinians are the ONLY one to blame in their plight - they behave
>=>like hulligans and expect to be forgiven after the dust settles in.
>
>*All* Palestinians? *Only* Palestinians? Sorry to trouble you with *facts*,
>I know they aren't welcome to you, but this is simply not the case. A large
>number of Palestinians were active in the resistance to the Iraqis, unlike
>the Kuwaiti royal family, who hightailed it out as quickly as possible -
>before most of the population even knew there was an invasion. In addition,
>perhaps the Palestinians were a little aggrieved that they didn't receive any
>of the money or supplies smuggled into Kuwait, and were left by the Kuwaitis
>to fend for themselves.

Since we were discussing Palestinian issues I thught it wasn't necessary 
to talk about others who helped the Iraqis (Jordan, Sudan etc.). I did not
mean to generalize and assert that every single Palestinian supported Saddam
- sure there were lots of exceptions of Noble individuals - but that is not
the point - Palestinian Public and leaders were quite clear abut it - nobody 
culd mistake what side they took in the war.

There were and are many Arabs who opposes the nasty practices and policies 
against of the rest f the Palestinains toward Israel - I admire these people
as I admire Chasidei Umot Ha'Olam (The Gentiles who saved Jews frm Nazi persecution during WWII.

This will not prevent me frm denouncing the Arabs (who are unfortunately the \
majority) who act to Israel's destructin and hate her. [ a fine example is Mr.
Elgahni who is a full-fledged Antisemite according to his last posts - spouting
Elders of Zion dogma]
 
>-Jeremy Henderson

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: MUTLU ALIAS
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:39:25 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem


Hasan (or is it Serdar Argic) your new alias doesn't fool anybody. It's your
bad luck that *today* I noticed a free email-to-fax gateway in Washington.
I will take off an hour from my busy schedule, obtain the fax number of the
Turkish Embassy in Washington, and register my complaint directly to the First
Secretary of the embassy. And if I see that you *still* persist in
cross-posting to 20 different newsgroups, I'll post the fax number too.

Josh (who has the misfortune of using ANUNEWS on a VAX, a system that doesn't
have a "kill" file)

backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
From: daniels@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Daniel R. Sawyer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: October Surprise
Summary: Both Carter & Reagan tried for Oct Surprise
Keywords: Oct Surprise origin Carter Reagan
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:21:53 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

I've been skeptical of some of the stories about the so-called October
Surprise bit the Reagan campaign has been accused of in the 1980 campaign.
Personally, I like the story of Geo. Bush flying in an SR-71 Blackbird
to Paris to negotiate with the Iranians while he was only a Vice-Pres
candidate.

The following is directly from THE LONGEST WAR: The Iran-Iraq Conflict by
Dilip Hiro, pages 71-72.  What do you think?

	"According to the Iranian President, Bani-Sadr, in early August
1980 his government had purchased secret documents containing a detailed
account of the conversations in France between several deposed Iranian
generals and politicians, Iraqi representatives and American and Israeli
military experts.  If so, the administration of Jimmy Carter had an inkling
of Iraqi plans." [Few lines down] "Given that US intelligence had predicted
Iran running out of spare parts for it's predominantly American arsenal in
three weeks, presidential aides visualized Tehran growing desperate to 
secure them from the Pentagon - a situation tailor-made for a swap:
American spares for hostages.  Out of this arose the rumors of a "mid-
October Surprise" by the Carter camp which alarmed the rival Ronald
Reagan camp."

But instead, Iran turned to Vietnam, which had lots of spares left from
the American occupation.

Carter was very eager to exchange arms for hostages. Polls showed that a
hostage release would give him 5 to 10 percent of the vote more, giving him
a electoral victory.

	"On 28 October Carter, feeling desperate, promised that if the 
hostages were released the US would airlift the $300-$500 millions-worth
of arms and spares that Iran had already paid for. But nothing came of this
mainly because-as has become known since then-Reagan's campaign office
secretly struck a deal with the emissaries of Iran in meetings held in 
Washington in early October and in Paris on 19-20 October. In return for 
the Iranian promise not to release the hostages before election day, the 
Republican candidate's emissaries promised that, if elected, Reagan would
supply Iran with US-made weapons and spares.  Reagan won.  After taking
office in January 1981 he publicly pledged to honor the terms agreed by 
Carter (just before relinquishing office) to resolve the hostage crisis, 
and lifted US economic sanctions against Iran."

And if anyone remembers Iran-contra and the Tower Report, the US made good
on it's pledge and supplied Iran with TOW and HAWK missiles and spares.

Daniel at UIUC

	"
-- 
Daniel R. Sawyer
daniel-sawyer@uiuc.edu

--
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:18:47 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Aug27.024445.4030@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
>
>Of course, what Anwar does not tell our distinguished readers of tpm, and
>I am more than happy to, are the following comparisons that make equating
>England with Kuwait ridiculous:

Great effort ... doing yourself proud :)

>Based on the above information, I will not be holding my breath in anticipa-
>tion awaiting a fair and free elections results come this October.

I won't either ... :-)

>BTW, for our women readers, many Kuwaiti women have been expressing
>bitterness at the fact that they had actively participated in underground
>activities to free Kuwait during the occupation, yet now have been 
>relegated back to their harems and are not allowed to vote.

That is true - they were used at a time when most needed, as women
generally are in political issues, and then returned to a lesser
degree afterwards.  Sounds a lot like the case in Algeria during
the War of Independence ... in view of the French.  Typical scenario
of male sexism and utilizing Islam towards political advantage that
is not Islam itself.  Sigh ...

>Sandra.
>(yes, she's baaaaaaack!)

:-)  Ahlain wa sahlain WA marhabtain!

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 15:36:03 GMT



Did you have anything of value to say here?:

In article <1992Aug28.191523.2435843@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <Btp39J.Cy0.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug27.191306.2431880@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>>In article <BtnAz1.GCo.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>>>>
>>>>The point is that this is all a LOT MORE than you could say 
>>>>for any other Arab country.  I've yet to see someone challenge 
>>>>this statement.
>>>>
>>>>Before responding, it is important to point out that I 
>>>>posted that this was a good "first step". 
>>>
>>>Question to Mr. Anwar Mxxxxxxd:
>>>
>>>Would you rather see Kuwait run by a 100% true moslem government
>>>with a 100% true moslem leader regardless if the leader was Kuwaiti,
>>>Iraqi, or Afghani?  Or you'd rather have the Shabah family continue
>>>to ride Kuwait.
>>
>>I would like to see Kuwait run by a Kuwaiti, just like I'd like to 
>>see Lebanon run by Lebanese, Syria run by Syrians, Jordan run by 
>>Jordanians, Egypt run by Egyptians, etc.  My personal opinion is that
>>state and religious institutions should reman seperate to a degree.
>>You've got a problem with that?
>
>I told you, you should not carry the name "Mohammed".  Islam and
>politics cannot be separated.  Recall that the Prophet established
>a government.  Read the Quran and the Serat,  both are full of
>governmental guidance.
>
>Besides, who placed the Kuwaiti or the Lebanese borders.  You appear
>to believe in the British orders too much.  The British named you
>Kuwaiti and the Hijaz people Saudi, then you adored his word, but 
>the words of the Quran and the Prophet must be ignored right?
>
>Accordingly, you perfer a kuwaiti thief ruler instead of a just 
>Palestinian or Egyptian.  Therefore, you'd reject Pr. Mohammed to 
>rule you since he's a Saudi, right?
>
>I conclude from your words that you are anti islam just like your
>Amir.
>
>jle


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:18:49 GMT

In article <22242@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <4925@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:
>>
>>   When someone says "Israel sanctions torture" they know full well
>>   that the average Israeli, like the average US or Brit citizen is a
>>   humane person who opposes torture.
>
>Is this, like, a self-evident truth?  Now that you bring it up, my guess
>would be that the average Israeli actually *supports* the torture
>engaged in by Shabak.
>
>Sure, the average Israeli, like the average person anywhere, opposes the
>application of torture to people like him/her.  But Palestinians are
>viewed as "different".
>
>The question of the use of torture must have come up in polls in Israel.
>Does anyone have any information on this?

Yigal's characterization of the Israeli as inhumaely obtuse person is 
hypocritical as ever. He forgets that the average Israeli happens to be
in a state of war for over 40 years (almost 50) with enemy who only now
consider to abandon their vow to annihilate him. He applies analogies
to nations who are in a state of peace. [The Americans never felt the
horrors of war in their own home in the last 200 years].

One should consider the treatment of Japanese and German citizens in WWII
and see how norms and attitudes are changing in times of crisis. This
is of course not saying that every act is justified in war. I think
that most countries would have done at least what Israel does in the
given circumstances. This is indeed not a pleasant thing but it just
ain't fair to single out Israel as particularly inhumane.

Much more disturbing is Yigal's neglect of the fact that our region is
ORDER OF MAGNITUDES more violent then Switzerland (this is the standard
he seems to apply to Israel). One cannot cary to heaven about Israel's
minor in comparison deeds while ignoring COMPLETELY the acts of all the
governments and organizations in the area. (Syria, PLO, Hizballa and
even Egypt). I am not opposed to critism against Israel as it is, it
should be voiced whenever necessary, I just want to hear a criticism of
the Backgraound which forces Israel to do what it does. this is of
course far blicker than Israel's record. [Refer to the Amnesty reports]

Until we hear even the slightest criticism of the Arab antagonists we
must conclude that Yigal's is biased and Human rights and Torture is
not his motives in his criticsms.

I will be glad to hear such a critiscm from Human rights motivated 
people - this only helps Israel to be better and stronger. However
biased and hateful criticism is not welcome.

David.

>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 02:44:45 GMT

In article <BtLEI5.Fp3.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>>
>>Did I miss something somewhere.  Could anyone tell me more about the
>>election results?  Was the Kuwaiti royal family re-elected?  By what 
>>margin?
>
>You've missed quite a bit:
>
>1. Kuwait is a constitutional monarchy, and has been one for about thirty years.  
>Like Britain and the inumerable other similiar monarchies, the monarch is not up 
>for election.  There was an active free press and national assembly in all but
>the period between '86 and the invasion.  Once post-liberation martial law 
>was lifted, many restrictions on the press were lifted.
>

Of course, what Anwar does not tell our distinguished readers of tpm, and
I am more than happy to, are the following comparisons that make equating
England with Kuwait ridiculous:

1. The monarch of England is a figurehead with no real political power.

2. The country of England is ruled, in fact, by a two-house Parliamentary
   system with an elected PM. (It is the "Parliament" in Kuwait which is
   the figurehead, in this case).

3. Elections in England are free and open to ALL British citizens, male
   and female.  Citizenship IS granted to many foreigners seeking it.

4. The "free press" and "constitution" of Kuwait was suspended by the
   monarch of the country long before the invasion by Iraq was emminent.

5. Martial law was lifted in some areas of Kuwait only after the expulsion
   of more than a hundred thousand Palestinians.

6. Most restrictions on the press still exist.

7. No formation of political parties is tolerated, and no public gatherings
   are allowed.


>2. Elections are scheduled for October.  Not having any psychic abilities 
>myself, I don't think I could provide you with any information on the outcome.
>

Based on the above information, I will not be holding my breath in anticipa-
tion awaiting a fair and free elections results come this October.

BTW, for our women readers, many Kuwaiti women have been expressing
bitterness at the fact that they had actively participated in underground
activities to free Kuwait during the occupation, yet now have been 
relegated back to their harems and are not allowed to vote.

Sandra.
(yes, she's baaaaaaack!)
			
>
>-- 
>Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
>anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
>Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
>Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19564 misc.headlines:6175 talk.politics.misc:43598 alt.conspiracy:10433 alt.censorship:7351 soc.rights.human:3268 alt.discrimination:4094
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 02:38:49 GMT

In article <BtMH14.FMo.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>I haven't made *any* comment on the Middle East Peace talks since your
>ridiculous tirades against Kuwaitis.  From then on, I have had no interest 
>in the Peace talks other than to assure a guarantee of peace for Kuwait 
>from its foes (and 'friends'), just as you have no interest in anyone
>else's well being but your own.

Good for you.  Typical of Gulf richman (with some exceptions).  Aren't
we glad you're off of our back.  May The Great Creator preserve the 
good Kuwaiti people and dispose of those that ignore His Words.  

I urge all of the netters not to mix the ugly manners of 
Mr. Anwar Mxxxxxxxd with those of the good Kuwaitis.  It looks like 
our friend here is a close friend of the Shabah family.  Here in
the US I know many many Kuwaitis that were so upset that the AMIR
was replanted by the US.  They were hopping for a change;  apparently,
democacy , Israel's security, and oil did not mix in the white house.

Speaking of peace for Kuwait:  This is the begining of the road.  The
Israelis shall occupy Kuwait as well as Saudia.  Remember, they claim
that the arabian peninsula (Shibh Al Jazeera) is theirs.  Take
it from Yemen, Al madina, Mecca, to Babil, to ....   Don't forget 
their current massive migration to Palestine.
The Syrians/Palestinians/Lebanese are the current victims,
but soon great israel shall expand.  That is not only their
spoken wish, but it is Biblical. Then you'll say: YA LAITANY 
: when it is too late.  

Bism Allah Al Rahman Al Raheem:

	Ya Bany Israeel sata`loo fil ardi marratain.  SAA.


Also, don't be fooled with those pro-israeli Kuwait sympathizers
on this net.  They are so glad you and I are attacking each other.
This is what israel wished, planned for and achieved. I invite
you to HUDA AL KHALIQ and forget your richman eago.


jle

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: raan@techunix.technion.ac.il (Ran Ever-Hadani)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:52:27 GMT

In <1992Aug27.164616.5765@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:

>I think that the only countries who have democratic processes in the
>region are: Israel, Turkey and to some extent (a little IMHO) Egypt.
>No more , no less.

IMO, if you include Egypt than you must include Jordan as well, as
they have more or less the same level of partial democracy.

-- Ran
-- 
Withdrawal from the territories is in Israel's vital interest.  I will not 
feel any less at home in Shiloh or Bethlehem if I need a visa to go there.

                                   Moshe Dayan  (quoted from memory)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad Ebrahimi)
Subject: Re: Iraq Air Force planes that flew to Iran  
Organization: Elect & Comp Engineering, U of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba,Canada
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 23:01:59 GMT



    In article: <BtK4w7.GHD@news.cso.uiuc.edu> daniels@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Daniel R. Sawyer) writes:

 >Funny note: During the pilgrimage season to Mecca, Iran was really desperate 
 >for air transport to haul all of it's pilgrims to Saudi Arabia.  So they used  
 >some of the Kuwaiti Airlines' planes that Iraq had captured and had then flown 
 >to Iran.  Unfortunately for Iran, Saudi officials noticed the stolen planes
and       >confiscated them and they were returned to Kuwait.


    Would you be kind enogh to add your source of above "Funny note"
too?

    As far as I know, Kuwaiti planes were painted by Iraqis(I saw some
of them in different Iranian airports last year, they were painted with
green and white colors, which are not the color of Iran Air) and a few
weeks ago Iran and Kuwait reached to an agreement to return them to
kuwait. The disscussion was about the maintanance fees payable by Kuwait.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Soviet Nuclear Weapons Stolen? / The Count
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:11:51 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article<1992Aug31.123726.18497@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>
>The Iranian democracy falls a long way short of what is desirable. However itis
better to recognise that there are elements which can be built on than dismiss
the whole enterprise. It took over 600 years from Simon De Monforts parliament
to the universal franchise in 1918 for true democracy to be granted in Britain.
There are still men and women alive who were debared from voting on grounds of
insufficient wealth.

>What I hope will happen is a gradual strengthening of the democratic elements
and an isolation of the lunatic religious fringe. The main defect in Irans
democracy is the requirement that parliamentary candidates be "approved".Rather
than seeking to gain political capital out of this defect it is more productive
to suggest that candidartes should *additionaly* produce a nomination paper
supported by a number of nominees, within a short time the production of the
nomination paper alone will be the requirement to be a candidate and the
"approval" become a rubber stamping body.

>Now why should a party in power want to do such a thing which is likely to mean
the demise of their parties power? The answer is that individuals are attached
to ideologies and policies, not to parties. Any party with a monopoly of power
inevitably becomes corrupted by position seekers who will suborn all their
principles in order to gain office. No amount of purges and loyalty tests can
ever help since the man with no principles is always at an advantage over those
without in these cases, it is like the requirement to take a religious oath, it
only excludes honest people for dishonest atheists will be prepared to take it.

>If the religiously based parties do not release their stranglehold on powerthey
will become secularised from within. In order to maintain a theocratic element
in the workings of the state the theocrats must reliquish power.The alternative
would be to see the gradual corruption of the faith by politics in the same way
that the Church of England and the Roman Catholic church were and are
corrupted.

>Phill Hallam-Baker


A very well thought-out discussion.  You seem like a very intelligent
person.

What else can I say but hmmmmm........

Anisa
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 30 Aug 92 19:58:29 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Aug26.171849.12592@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:

>to nations who are in a state of peace. [The Americans never felt the
>horrors of war in their own home in the last 200 years].

Oh yes? And the Civil War, and Mexican War did not take place on US
soil (eg Battle of the Alamo)?


>
>>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>--
>=============================================================================
>  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
>  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
>  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg             |    ^     "The whole wide world is a very narrow
Bitnet:                      | \-/-\-/    bridge, but the main thing is not to
rothberg@bimacs              |  X   X     be afraid"
Internet:                    | /-\-/-\
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il  |    V             -Rabbi Nachman of Bratzlav
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast