From: robj@netcom.com (Rob Jellinghaus)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in PBS and CBS
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:33:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.204829.18452@midway.uchicago.edu> nelshou1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (Roger Shouse) writes:
>It has to do with a deep seated cultural belief that families help act 
>as the glue with which the social fabric is held together.  They want
>to see their children marry and have children of their own.  They want
>to see this occur in a natural way to the extent possible.  Speaking
>quite generally here, it's not that they would necessarily condemn their
>child who becomes gay, but that they believe it is right and proper to
>do all in their power to encourage their child to be straight.

Very well.  As others have pointed out, this kind of "deep seated
cultural belief" is essentially similar to previous "beliefs" about
race.  Let me replace references to homosexuality with references to
inter-racial marriage in your sentences above:

White parents want to see thir children marry and have children of
their own.  They want to see this occur in a natural way to the
extent possible.  Speaking quote generally here, it's not that they
would necessarily condemn their child for marrying a black person,
but that they believe it is right and proper to do all in their
power to encourage their child to marry someone white.

You see?  The cultural bias you are describing is "love between
straight people is more `natural' than love between gay people".
This is quite similar to "love between same-race people is more
`natural' than love between pepole of different races."  Yes, this
cultural bias exists.  But just because it exists is no reason to
believe it is actually justified.  Until recently, there were enforced
laws against interracial marriage.  Those have been mostly taken off
the books because society's cultural bias has shifted.  Do you think
that is a bad thing?  If not, then can you agree it might not be a
bad thing for the bias to shift some more?

>And as [homosexuality became more prevalent], the character (if not
>the proliferation) of our culture would be affected in a way that most 
>citizens would not like to see.

Here you take your bias and express it in a different way.  "Most
people are biased against homosexuals.  If homosexuality were more
accepted, then there would be more visible homosexuality.  Most
(biased) people would not like this."  Of course, stated like this,
the assertion is self-contradictory; if homosexuality wree more
accepted, then people would _not_ mind more homosexuals being visible.
Moreover, I don't think you have any definite idea of how our culture
would be affected, or of what "most citizens" would not like about it.

Let us be clear:  you seem to feel that prejudice against minority
groups, insofar as it is widespread, is acceptable, and that minority
groups (in this case homosexuals) should be prepared for a long
struggle to change that notion.  You are entirely correct.  People
working for greater awareness of homosexuality--people in the gay
liberation movement--are in very much the same situation as the
suffragettes of the early 20th century, and the civil rights protesters
of the 60s.  They too sought to alter a prevailing "cultural bias",
and they--at least partially--succeeded.  Do you think they should
have done less?  Would you have argued to them that "if women get the
vote, our culture would be affected in a way most citizens would not
like to see"? 

By the way, I want to thank you for pursuing this dialogue and
remaining quite even-tempered throughout.  We do seem to be making
progress in this discussion.

>These
>sorts of issues must be worked out on a case by case basis.  All the 
>protests, all the name calling in the world will not alleviate the
>concerns involved.

Indeed.  But protests and name-calling are in many ways effective at
attracting the attention of the culturally biased majority.  And in
oorder to address the concerns at all, we need to be aware that the
concerns are important, to which end protests can certainly serve--
as the civil rights movement in the 60s showed.

-- 
Rob Jellinghaus    |  "Next time you see a lie being spread or a bad 
robj@netcom.com    |   decision being made out of sheer ignorance,
robj@xanadu.com    |   pause, and think of hypertext."
uunet!netcom!robj  |       -- K. Eric Drexler, _Engines of Creation_
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality