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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:30:44 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?

Excerpts from christia: 29-Sep-92 Re: Re: Purgatory: Justice .. "Carl A.
Lahetta"@RUTADM (9449)

> > Scripture says that as we sow, so shall we reap. It also says that we
> > shall be repaid according to the works we have done, good or ill; there
> > is no favortism, which means Christians don't get off the hook.  This is
> > exactly what we speak of.

>     How can this be a basis for Purgatory.  I think it might be more
> along the lines of if you sexually sin in your life you will face the
> consequences of it, or alcohol, gossip, and so on.

When Paul says we will be repaid according ot the works we have done, he
is specifically addressing post-death judgment.  He is not speaking
merely of natural consequences, though those do play a part.

> > Don't have them right now but there are lots of them.  Again, refer to
> > the passages which say that we reap what we sow, and that God repays
> > each according to the works he has done, good or evil, without showing
> > favortism.

>     If God did not show favortism then why does he favor those that
> believe in Christ? (That might be stretching it but do you understand
> what I mean?)  As for not showing favortism then why did Jesus tell the
> theif on the cross that he would be with him in Paradise?  Isn't that
> favortism? Why didn't the theif go to Purgatory?  If he didn't then God
> certainly showed favortism.  What is your answer?

My answer? Scripture SAYS that God shows no favoritism, that's why.  God
does not "favor" those who believe in Christ; he cleanses them of their
sin so that they are in fact righteous and worthy of heaven.  He judges
them like he does everyone else; it just so happens that by the blood of
the Lamb they are clean (really clean, not just covered up).

About the thief:  Well, we do not know the heart of the thief.
Understand that not all souls go to purgatory, only those who need to be
cleansed.  Perhaps he was one of those who did not need to go.  I might
also suggest that the Greek is ambiguous; it could say, "Truly I tell
you today, you will be with me in Paradise," or "Truly I tell you, today
you will be with me in Paradise."  Or, you can also look at purgatory as
instantaneous and not covering a period of time.

>      I meant infant baptism.  You wrote that to go to heaven "one's sins
> had      to be forgiven and one had to do pennance."  Now, are not
> infants  baptised?  And do not the Catholics confess "one baptism for
> the forgiveness of sins?"  The baptism you seem to refer to above seems
> to be baptism at a later age in one's life.  Is it this baptism later on
> along with rejection of sin that counts more so than infant baptism?

The baptisms are the same.  Infants are baptized because there is no
remission of original sin without baptism. We believe that ALL are
condemned by the sin of Adam, not just those beyond the age of reason.
Infants need to be saved.  Do you deny that? We wish even infants to be
saved.  There is no salvation without the remission of original sin.
Baptism accomplishes this in our theology.

> > Without getting into a debate about baptism, I will note 1) Catholics
> > aren't the only ones who believe that baptism effects remission of sin;
> > 2) baptism is ineffective without faith.  It cannot save on its own, it
> > is merely a channel of God's grace.

>   I thought that baptism was more of a public affirmation of one's faith
> and genuine desire to live a godly life.

Not according to Scripture, at least not in our interpretation.

> > It is mentioned in the same place the Trinity and Incarnation are
> > mentioned: implicitly.  Nevertheless we do not based our doctrines on
> > Scripture alone, but on both Scripture and Tradition, as Scripture
> > instructs us to do.  As I mentioned before, the Sacrament of Penance
> > also effects forgiveness of sins for serious sins, and repentance alone
> > effects forgiveness of sins for less serious sins.

>      I always thought that "sin" is "sin" to God and all are the same to
>  Him and that it is man that thinks of one sin worse than another?

Not according to Scripture.  See Gal 5:19, 1 Cor 6:9, Eph 5:5, and 1 John 5:16.

>   Just a thought, didn't Jesus say that "not one shall perish", and that
>   He will not loose even one?  I wonder if that can justify the saved
> always   saved position?

This interpretation conflicts with other Scriptures, hence, I do not
think your interpretation is correct.  It may in fact refer to the
Apostles, because it specifically mentions Judas as an exception.

Eric