HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: philip@cel.cummins.com (Philip D. Pokorny)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: Re: Helpfor 425t that won't talk ethernet...
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:24:31 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

Andrew F. Gunnesch asks:
> We have a single 425t on an ethernet, which is routed to the rest
> of our extensive internet on two ends of the wire, one being a Cisco
> AGS+ and the other a Proteon P4100.  We have removed the ringcard
> from the machine, and are using the ethernet port only.  At times,
When you removed the card, did you EX CONFIG at the MD to tell
it there was no ring card?  Did you set the primary network to
Ethernet? (PNET E?)

> the machine works just fine, albeit a little slow.  It runs an
> llbd, glbd, and ns_helper.  Occasionally (quite often now), when the
> machine boots up, it registers no network number.  I've even gone so
> far as to run the following script at boot time before tcp services
> are started:
> 
> #!/bin/sh
> (/etc/netsvc -net 29cf2 ) > /dev/console
> (/etc/netsvc -a ) > /dev/console
> (/etc/rtsvc -dev ETH802.3_DIO -net 29cf2 -noroute ) > /dev/console
> 
Since TCP/IP and Domain Networking services don't have anything
to do with each other, this shouldn't affect TCPD or any TCP/IP
services.  If there are other machines on the ethernet spline
that are routing Domain Services (the Proteon and Cisco are both
capable of doing this...) then this Apollo will get it's network
ID from the router automatically.

> It's worked before like this.  Sometimes it doesn't.  I've removed
> the `node_data/hint_file and rebooted it several times.  Once in a
A good thing to try in a case like this...

> great while now the node is happy and registers it's proper network
> of 29cf2, but usually doesn't (it sometimes when you are logged onto
> the machine and do a bldt it replies 29cf2.341c8, but lately it just
> responds 341c8).  When the machine gets into this state, I can pst
When it's in this state try runing netsvc and rtsvc to display
the current network options.  The network is probably 0.

> it, but not crp (object not found error).  I must telnet in then.
> When I'm on the machine, I can bldt other machines in my internet.
> When I try an lcnode, I get this:
> ?(lcnode)  Node 341C8 did not respond - request denied by local node (OS/network)
This may be because you haven't set the primary network
correctly?

Are you sure that 29cf2 is the Apollo network id of the
ethernet?  It isn't the old number of the Apollo Token Ring? 
Mixing machines on the same ethernet with different numbers
caused all sorts of strange problems here when we moved nodes
and forgot the change the config's

> Can anybody help me out with this perplexing problem????
I hope I did...

Sincerely,
Philip D. Pokorny
philip@cel.cummins.com
:)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
From: afgun@engin.umich.edu (Andrew F. Gunnesch)
Subject: Re: Mtools on Apollo
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 11:12:48 EDT
Organization: CAEN, University of Michigan
Summary: need to be in node_owners to run mtvol
Followup-To: comp.sys.apollo
Distribution: world 

In article <1992Jul21.122116.22999@rhrk.uni-kl.de> uch024@zx1.hrz.uni-dortmund.de writes:
>Well, i encountered the problem when i tried to compile the mtools.
>So what is the device one should use for mtools.
>
>As i was forced to archive some of my software i formatted a disc
>with invol and tried to mount it in the filesystem with mtvol.
>The answer from DomainOS was frustrating:
>
>?(mtvol) Unable to mount volume - no right to perform operation 
>(OS/ACL manageer)
>
>So does anyone know what has to be done to make the mtvol run?
>In fact our Sysadmin doesn't know either :-(
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lothar Koniczek                  |Internet: uch024@zx1.hrz.uni-dortmund.de
>University of Dortmund (Germany) |Bitnet:   uch024@ddohrz11.BITNET
>Department of Chemistry          |Voice: Sorry, currently not available :-(
>

It looks like you aren't trying to mtvol as root, and you aren't in
the ACL listing of `node_data/node_owners.  Try having your sysadmin
add you to the ACL on that file, and see if the mtvol works then.
-- 
===============================================================================
Andrew F. Gunnesch          |  Evil CAEN sysadmin   |  I'm a Sun worshipper
afgun@caen.engin.umich.edu  |What?  I just work here|  not a DEC dog.......
===============================================================================
From: davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: Re: Favourite DOMAIN/OS features (or mis-features)
Date: 22 Jul 92 04:01:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul22.040106.13425
Organization: University of Washington


Generally I'm no big Domain/OS fan, but I'll have to agree with this:
In article <199207212228.AA01227@pan.ssec.honeywell.com>, thompson@PAN.SSEC.HONEYWELL.COM ((jt) John Thompson) writes:
> I figured someone else would have mentioned these already....
> 
> o   The keyboard.  Biilllioonnns and biillionnns (sorry C. Sagan) of keys all
>     waiting to be redefined.  I _hate_ having to point and click and pulldown
>     and popup everything.

Especially when compared to the HP standard keyboard (you mean I gotta
type SHIFT-ESCAPE to get ^? -- gimme a break!)

Not to mention the veritable minefield of funky HP-specific keys (that
mess up the terminal if you press them) surrounding the Shift and Return
keys, just waiting for an errant finger to stumble upon them...

--
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu           Seattle, WA  98195
    If AT&T is 'Ma Bell', does this make ITT 'Cousin ITT'?
From: dmm@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Andrew Mathieson Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: How to get around login problem?
Date: 31 Jul 92 11:28:40 GMT
Distribution: us
Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science


   I'm trying to log into a DN560 that hasn't been running in a while.
It is set up to use the registry server on a network, but the machine is
standalone now.  I have the correct root password but get the message:
"cannot use server registry - using local registry - account has expired
or has been marked invalid."  I have access to the filesystem from
the phase II shell in service mode; can I somehow re-enable the root
login from there (or re-enable the default password)?  How else can I
get into the machine?

-drew
  dmm@silver.lcs.mit.edu
     @gnu.ai.mit.edu
From: waldram@WOLF.UWYO.EDU ("James J. Waldram")
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: DN 10000 1.4 GB disks
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:50:07 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

I am looking for information on the 1.4 GB disks that can be put on the DN 10000
ESDI disk controller.  Manufacturer, model, jumper configuration, controller jumpers,
controller revision required...

Jim Waldram                        Department of Atmospheric Science
waldram@grizzly.uwyo.edu           University of Wyoming
JWALDRAM@OUTLAW.UWYO.EDU           Box 3038 University Station
307-766-5351                       Laramie, WY 82071

From: hgk@hpugrca.GRC.HP.COM (Hans-Gerhard Kall)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 06:39:23 GMT
Subject: Re: NFS mount: Access Denied, SR10.3
Organization: HP Response-Center Germany, Ratingen
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo

To me it sounds like a configuration problem ...

In general I'd like to recommend to update to NFS Version 2.3.
Patch pd91_m0299 includes a new nfs_gate and nfsd for NFS V.2.2.

Regards,

Hans-Gerhard Kall
Response Center
Hewlett-Packard GmbH
From: dwv@ENGIN.UMICH.EDU (Doug Vander Wilt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: Re: Mtools on Apollo, sidetrack on DPCC/DPCE
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:23:37 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!usc!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!pegasus.mit.edu!bri@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Brian D. Carlstrom) writes:
> question about DPCE/DPCC. the DPCE part is the emulator.
> the DPCC part is the card? do i need the card to run the emulator...
> or will just the software alone work...

DPCE (Domain PC Emulator) is a complete software only solution for Domain/OS:
    "The dpce command starts DPCE in a window on your workstation.  DPCE
     consists of software that emulates an IBM PC/AT, allowing you to use DOS
     commands and run PC application programs." (from 'help dpce')

DPCC (Domain PC Coprocessor) consists of (80286-based) hardware and software
to perform the same function as well as AT-bus device support.  I'm not sure
DPCC is still available but DPCE on a 400 series machine runs faster that
DPCC.  There was another company called "Applied Reasoning" that made a
386-based coprocessor.  That company is now defunct.  SoftPC is a product
the performs PC emulation (in software) on HP-UX.

Doug Vander Wilt
Honeywell MICRO SWITCH Division
dwv@cadnet.micro.honeywell.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
From: system@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (System Admin (Mike Peterson))
Subject: Re: Mail and NFS 2.3
Keywords: mail sendmail nfs os10.4
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 03:44:51 GMT

In article <807@ceco.ceco.com> chris@ceco.ceco.com (Chris Icide) writes:
>
>I am currently having a couple problems which seem to related.  My
>configuration is as follows:  DN3550 24MB, OS 10.4, NFS2.3.
>
>1)  Our site is using a sun as both the site's name server and mailserver.
>    The DN3550 works perfectly fine with the name server, and I am able
>    to mount the sun's exported file systems with no problems.  The user
>    id's on the sun and apollo match (unix id #'s and names, groups, orgs,
>    etc.).  Users are able to read and write from the mounted file systems.
>    Sendmail is currently set up to deliver mail to the mail server whether
>    the intended addressee account is on the DN3550 or elsewhere.  This works
>    just fine.  /usr/spool/mail is a remote file system (/var/spool/mail) on
>    the sun.  (Main environment for users is bsd4.3 /bin/csh)

You are really asking for trouble linking your mail spool areas, because
you do not have proper file locking between mail readers and sendmail
putting new mail into a user mailbox, or between multiple sendmails
if you get your scheme to work. This scheme only worked on Domain
due to the proper file locking across the network. For NFS, 'lockd'
was supposed to do this, but many NFS implementations either lack
'lockd', or the 'lockd' supplied doesn't work (e.g. on Suns without
the lockd patch).

The only safe way to run mail seems to be to have a /usr/spool/mail
(or /usr/mail on HP-UX) on each node which is willing to actually
receive mail. What most sites seem to do (and what we do) is to
have a central mail receiver, which many other systems point to
with their MX nameserver records (make sure you have MX set properly
if you expect mail to be received on that node). Each user can then
use .forward to send their mail to their desired system (which
better not have its MX record pointing back to the central system!).
Or, you just have everyone read their mail on the mail server :-(.

>    Problems:
>    
>    If I try to set up sendmail to allow delivery to the DN3550, I run into
>    a number of problems:
>    
>    o	Mail delivered from other nodes recieve a Sendmail message: 
>    	"Deferred, connection refused" when trying to deliver mail.  The
>    	mail never gets through.

Make sure your sendmail is responding correctly - use telnet to port
25 and you can talk to it with commands like HELO, MAIL, RCPT, ...
to see that it is giving out proper FQDNs, etc. On the Apollo,
you can also use 'mail -v' for interactive delivery, so you can
watch the dialog.
-- 
What are the chances that any computer system will ever "work" properly?
... and Slim just left town. -*- Mike Peterson, SysAdmin, U/Toronto Chemistry
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
From: nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley)
Subject: Re: Favourite DOMAIN/OS features (or mis-features)
Organization: Alfalfa Software, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 03:42:29 GMT

L58@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Dieter Menszner) writes:
: On our Apollos and HP's we are using the Epoch editor (GNU emacs +
: X features). It can do everything the dm editor can, including the "m3"
: feature.

If you assume that the DM is only an editor then you're right, it
can do anything the DM can.  Of course, so can a C compiler.
-- 
						nazgul@alfalfa.com

I'm not sure which upsets me more: that people are so unwilling to accept
responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate
everyone else's.
From: chen@digital.sps.mot.com (Jinfu Chen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: re: Favourite DOMAIN/OS features (or mis-features)
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:18:59 GMT
Organization: Motorola, LICD, SPS, Mesa, AZ


Many of my favors are already covered by others, here is my remaining list:

o   Rich and well documeneted OS calls (xxx_$).
o   The ts command.
o   Use /com/netstat -config to get detailed listing of hardware.
	configuration.  And like thompson@pan.ssec.honeywell.com mentioned, the
	-all switch (and the -n switch) to query information across network.
o   cpt command instead of ugly "find -print | cpio .." or "tar ... | tar .."
    contortion.  Didn't the Unix people ever need to copy or move a directory
	across file system?!
o   Standard -help and -version switch in all Aegis commands.  Wanna to find
	out wich version of C compiler you're using in HP-UX or SunOS, good luck.
o   Position independent command switch, e.g. "cpt dir1 -ld dir2 -r".
o   rbak/wbak/rwmt.  Several features in these commands I like very much. 
	Device naming is one, instead of cyptic /dev/rct8, -device ct is so much
	easy to remember.
o	Registry (when it works).
o	Examples in Aegis help files.
o	RAI.  Trying to load OS across network in HPUX or SunOS environment is
	real loyal pain.  This probably is due to the limitation of underline
	filesystem.
o   crp command.  Rsh is okay but it brings me to my home directory instead
	of where I was.
o   Processes have names (the proc2_$set_name() call).

My most favored features that already covered by others:

o   The network file system.
o   DM window and editor.
From: dan@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com (Dan Bennett)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 12:55:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Auto reboot problem
Organization: HP Response Centre, Berkshire, England.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo

Hi,

You've got a dreaded E-code, which is a more hardware-ish type of thing 
than the usual OS-type error codes. stcode won't tell you what it means
but I will:

  E1800892     ATR Digital loopback initialize controller RAM failure

Does that help?
ATR = Apollo Token Ring, so probably your ring card is knackered.
Regards,

Dan Bennett.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
From: afgun@engin.umich.edu (Andrew F. Gunnesch)
Subject: Re: Need asknode_$info help
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:49:37 EDT
Organization: CAEN, University of Michigan
Followup-To: comp.sys.apollo

In article <RHV-VC#@engin.umich.edu> I wrote:
>#include <stdio.h>
>#include "/us/ins/ubase.ins.c"
>#include "/us/ins/asknode.ins.c"
>
>main()
>{
>	network_t	mynetwork;
>	status_$t	status;
>
>
>	asknode_$info(ask_network_number, (node_t)0, 0, &mynetwork, status);
>					/* Ask the node it's network number */
>	if (status.all != status_$ok) 
>		fprintf(stderr, "Get network request failed.\n");
>	else
>		printf("%lX\n", mynetwork);
>}
>
>Here's a little bit of code.  From ubase.ins.c, network_t is typedef'ed to
>an unsigned long.  The network number that I get back SHOULD be 29cf7, but
>it varies, and starts with 760.  Eg, several different runs produced either
>7600aca4 or 760de310.  What am I doing wrong here?
>

Well, the code that I posted was taken in chunks out of my program.  I ran
this little test successfully.  I did a couple of things at the same time
and ended up fixing my problem.  I'm not sure which one did it, but I decided
to initialize mynetwork as 0 and just before doing the asknode call (I have
another before this one) I set status.all = 0.  The problem is gone and my
code works beautifully.  Sorry to waste the bandwidth.

-- 
===============================================================================
Andrew F. Gunnesch          |  Evil CAEN sysadmin   |  I'm a Sun worshipper
afgun@caen.engin.umich.edu  |What?  I just work here|  not a DEC dog.......
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
From: beierl_c@apollo.hp.com (Christopher Beierl)
Subject: Re: Mtools on Apollo
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:58:58 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Jul29.152730.8204@athena.mit.edu> bri@pegasus.mit.edu (Brian D. Carlstrom) writes:
...
>question about DPCE/DPCC. the DPCE part is the emulator.
>the DPCC part is the card? do i need the card to run the emulator
>or will just the software alone work...

DPCE is the software emulator, DPCC is the hardware emulator.  Each of them
is independent of the other--use one or the other.

-Chris
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Christopher T. Beierl     Hewlett-Packard/Apollo - UTD - Media Technology Lab
INTERNET: beierl_c@apollo.hp.com                        PHONE: (508) 436-4054      
USMAIL: 300 Apollo Dr., Chelmsford, MA 01824           TELNET:       436-4054
From: chuck@edsi.plexus.COM (Chuck Tomasi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: Re: Favourite DOMAIN/OS features (or mis-features)
Date: 22 Jul 92 01:01:40 GMT
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI

bcr@cernapo (Bill Riemers) writes:

:)Ah, but this is also one of its bigest problems.  If you have two or three
:)hundred private nodes linked together you have a problem.  You can't possably
:)have enough hired system managers take care of them all.  On the other hand,
:)you don't dare allow 200+ people with root privledge either.  What I wouldn't
:)give to be able to have someone from my university to have root access to our
:)nodes...  Instead, I have to wait weeks for a system manager to get time to
:)make relatively minor changes.

Point taken.  Isn't that where group "wheel" comes into play?  Group
permissions are a great way of giving "some" priviledges without buying
the farm.

Then again I'm only taking care of 37 nodes, have relatively intelligent
engineers for users, and let five or six trusted people have root
access.  I'm naive, but don't have to chase down every little "hey I did
'chown' instead of 'chmod'..."
-- 
Chuck Tomasi             |     "Mom, it's Data.  I heard you know
chuck@edsi.plexus.COM    |      how to turn him on." 
spool!cserver!edsi!chuck |                    -Wesley  "Datalore"
------<Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton Wisconsin>------
From: krowitz@QUAKE.MIT.EDU (David Krowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: Re:  BSD 4.4 and X11R5 server on apollo: Hardware info wanted
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:44:49 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

You probably want a copy of the "Domain Series 3000/Series 4000
Hardware Architecture Handbook", Order Number 007861.

I have a copy of revision 02 of this manual, and it seems to
have a lot of what you want.

== Dave Krowitz
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
From: L58@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Dieter Menszner)
Subject: Re: Favourite DOMAIN/OS features (or mis-features)
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 12:39:49 CET

In article <Bruw7G.9z1@apollo.hp.com>
roc@apollo.HP.COM (R. O. Curtis) writes:

>
>Around here, perhaps the most commonly-cited
>piece of vanishing Apollo wonderfulness is the
>semi-standard definition of m3 to "click
>open" a file.  This "feature" has an infinity
>of valuable uses, and does not seem likely to
>reemerge through any combination of other stuff
>(X and DCE?) that I can imagine.
>
>-r
>
>
>
On our Apollos and HP's we are using the Epoch editor (GNU emacs +
X features). It can do everything the dm editor can, including the "m3"
feature.

Dieter
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
From: bri@pegasus.mit.edu (Brian D. Carlstrom)
Subject: Re: Mtools on Apollo
Organization: mit
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:27:30 GMT

In article <199207282137.AA09344@cadnet.micro.honeywell.com> dwv@ENGIN.UMICH.EDU (Doug Vander Wilt) writes:
>I've also been trying to utilize mtools (version 2.0) on Domain/OS.  I
>can access the virtual hard disk files used with DPCE/DPCC, but have not
>been able to access DN series built-in or SCSI connected floppy drives. 

question about DPCE/DPCC. the DPCE part is the emulator.
the DPCC part is the card? do i need the card to run the emulator
or will just the software alone work...

-bri


Xref: sparky comp.sys.apollo:3111 misc.forsale.computers:27642
From: dmm@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Andrew Mathieson Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo,misc.forsale.computers
Subject: Apollo workstation hardware, cheap
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:04:34 GMT
Distribution: us
Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science

Apollo 3500 and 4000 (and other?) stuff.

$275    3500 board, case, power supply
$250    4000 board, case, power supply
$150    tape drive controller (Archive Corp.)
$350    8 plane color video card, 1024 x 800 (two available)
$375    19" color monitor, 1024 x 800
$250    3C505 ethernet card (w/PROM)
$250    Apollo Token Ring card
$150    4 meg RAM card (two available)
$250    8 meg RAM card
$ 50    keyboard (the "good" one -- keypads on left & right)

Take more than one item and I'll go even lower.
The prices are already 1/4 to 1/3 of HP/Apollo prices,
and are substantially less than typical distributors' prices.
I'll split shipping on all but the monitor (which I hope
I don't have to ship! :-)

-drew, nv1b       dmm@silver.lcs.mit.edu        @gnu.ai.mit.edu
From: carl@Cayman.COM (Carl Heinzl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
Subject: Re: 425t EISA bus
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:28:05 GMT
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: thompson@PAN.SSEC.HONEYWELL.COM's message of 29 Jul 92 14:22:08 GMT
bcc: carl


>The 4xxT series nodes were marketed to have no EISA expansion capabilities.
>However, they obviously have an EISA bus, since they can take an ATR or ITR
>card.  This leads me to ask two questions --

Sorry, but they don't have an EISA bus at all.  The ATR/ITR/Ethernet
cards are *ISA* cards (aka AT bus style cards).  The "bus" in the 425t
is NOT a full ISA bus like the Dn3000/3500/4000/4500/5000 or 425s but
it is a crippled bus.  It does not support dma.  I forget if there
are other limitations.

>1)  Can you throw in a different card (for example, an ExaTape card or an Ikon
>    10092 card), and have it work?  I think I remember that HP _said_ "no," 
>    but that's different than not being able to.  You couldn't put a color
>    head on a 705 by changing a jumper and buying a new cable either.   :-)

The short answer is no for the reasons mentioned above.

>2)  There are now expanders out for the 700 series that convert a single EISA 
>    slot to a 7-slot(?) EISA bus, via (I believe) a card w/ extender cable, 
>    and an expansion box (presumably w/ its own power).
>    Can one of these be put in a 4xxT machine (or a 4xxS machine, for that 
>    matter), to expand its capabilities?  Perhaps this answer is affected by
>    the same constraints that answered (1), but perhaps not.

Different animule altogether.  That's a *real* EISA bus as opposed to
a crippled ISA bus.

-Carl-
--
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo
From: rees@dabo.citi.umich.edu (Jim Rees)
Subject: Re: Favourite DOMAIN/OS features (or mis-features)
Reply-To: Jim.Rees@umich.edu
Organization: University of Michigan IFS Project
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 15:34:53 GMT

In article <92206.12:40:04.711328.L58@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>, L58@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Dieter Menszner) writes:

  On our Apollos and HP's we are using the Epoch editor (GNU emacs +
  X features). It can do everything the dm editor can, including the "m3"
  feature.

I use the same combination, and it's pretty nice, but it is missing one very
important feature, and that's universal editing.  So if I run some X client
that isn't Epoch, I don't get the 'm3' button or any of the other nice
features.