From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Jewish sources for Kahane's views?
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 06:49:09 GMT

In article <dfs.721197310@vash> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

# In <1992Nov8.014017.19701@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
# makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
 
# [Skoll:]
# ># The Canaanites were to be expelled because they committed "abominations"
# ># in the land, something which cannot be applied to the Arabs.  Similarly,
# ># Amalek was to be utterly destroyed because of his murderous and treacherous
# ># actions against Jews.  So, to apply those laws to modern times is simply
# ># going AGAINST Jewish teaching.
 
# >	I will not go into this line of reasoning now (but I may in the
# >future) since it is not the point being addressed.
 
# It is the point.  YOU yourself said that Kahane's ideas were based
# on the Bible; when pressed for references, you cited the laws concerning
# the Canaanites.  I responded by showing that you cannot use those
# laws to support Kahane's position.

	It is not the point.  I gave one citation, not all of them.
However, that is not the point either.  The point, and you seem to
fail to understand this, is that even if you show that Rabbi Meir
Kahane's (HY"D) is wrong in using those laws (and you did not show
this, you merely made an argument), is that the Rabbi was wrong and
nothing else.  You have not yet shown that he is racist.  You have
only shown (and I claim that you have actually not shown this) that
the Rabbi made a mistake.  However, even if mistaken, he has still
based his ("mistaken") beliefs on the Bible.

# ># Whether or not those laws are or were
# ># racist is besides the point - the fact is, that according to Jewish
# ># tradition, they do not apply to the Arab inhabitants of Eretz
# ># Israel.
 
# >	Oh, but it is EXACTLY the point.  You are claiming that Rabbi Meir
# >Kahane (HY"D) was a racist.  There are Jewish sources for his beliefs.
 
# As I've demonstrated, it is a mis-interpretation of Jewish sources.

	And as I have demonstrated, even if they are a mis-interpretation
(something you have not yet shown anyway), that does not mean that
there are not authentic Jewish sources for his beliefs.  Only that he
misinterpreted them.  That does not make him a racist.

# Many Orthodox scholars (of which, I admit, I'm not one) oppose
# Kahane's interpretation of those sources.

	And many admit to it.

# >He may or may not be justified in using those sources to support his
# >claims, but it does go to the issue as to whether or not he was a
# >racist.
 
# Not at all.  Since it is entirely incorrect to base Kahane's ideas
# on the Jewish sources you cited, we can state that Kahane is racist
# based on his actions and teachings, without in the slightest impugning
# the validity of the Jewish sources.  Kahane is racist because of his
# teachings and actions, not because he misinterprets Jewish sources.

	You are incorrect.  Not only have you not shown that it is
incorrect to base his ideas on Jewish teachings, you cannot state that
he is a racist based on anything since his teachings and actions are
based on his (right or wrong) interpretation of Jewish sources.

# >	It may be contrary to Judaism (and it may not - again I am not
# >going to discuss that aspect since it is besides the point),
 
# But YOU brought up the point by stating that Kahane had "Jewish
# sources" for his views.  If you don't want to discuss a point, then
# don't bring it up.

	I do not want to discuss it because it is irrelevant.  Actually I
would be glad to discuss it.  But only when you know what you are
talking about.

# > but that
# >does not make the Rabbi racist.  If you are correct, it would only
# >make him wrong.
 
# I agree here - the fact that Kahane promoted racism, and the fact that
# he (you?) misinterpreted Jewish sources are two unrelated facts.

	Well it is not a fact that the Rabbi promoted racism.  However,
whatever he promoted, and the reason he promoted it, are directly
related facts as to whether or not he was a racist.

	By the way, you never did answer my question as to whether or not
those Jewish sources (regarding the Canaanites and Amalek) were
racist.  The answer to that, by the way, is totally indepenent over
whether or not those laws are still valid.  So, were (are) they 
racist?  Also, is Israel's law of return racist?

# [I said that I thought Kahane's followers endanger Israel:]
 
# >	Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion.  However, I think
# >the biggest threat are Israeli (and other) politicians who hurl lies
# >about the late Rabbi which are then picked up on by people like you.
 
# Which lies are these?  Perhaps you'd care to supply some "context"?

	About him being a racist.  The ones you give here.  How about THAT
for context.

# >Even if the Rabbi is wrong, he was the only one to address certain
# >issues.
 
# Which issues are these?
 
	Demographics in Israel.

# >The smear campaign against the Rabbi and his views only puts
# >off addressing those issues, and the longer they take to be addressed,
# >the harder it will be to solve them.  I suggest you inquire as to why
# >the publisher of the extreme left wing Village Voice made many
# >complimentary statements about the late Rabbi.
 
# I don't really care WHO says something.  If I disagree with a statement,
# it can come from the right, the left, or the moon for all I care.
 
	I was trying to make a point.  By the way, The publisher of the
Village VOice made those statements about the Rabbi because he was
(and remains) the only one to bring serious discussions about Israel's
demographic problems to the public.  He hated the Rabbis solutions.

# [Makowsky asks if I disagree with facilitating Jewish emigration to
#  Israel:]

# ># Absolutely not.  As long as it does not me "facilitating" the expulsion
# ># of people already living there.  What was done, was done, and I'm not
# ># ashamed to support Israel.  But conditions for Jews now are quite
# ># different, and we cannot claim our land by kicking out long-time
# ># inhabitants.
 
# >	THis is nonsense.  No one has to be expelled as a result of any
# >kind of facilitating or claiming of land.  In fact, facilitating
# >actually destroys one of the Rabbi's arguments for expulsion
# >(demographics)!
 
# Come on, the land of Israel is not physically capable of supporting
# all the Jews in the world.

	Well given this answer, I do not know if we could even have a
common frame of reference for a civil discussion even were you to be
intellectually honest.  By the way, what do you think wil happen when
all Jews are there?

# And Kahane's ideas would make non-Jews
# virtual non-citizens in his Israel, imposing such severe restrictions
# upon them that leaving would be the only way to lead a decent life.

	I do not know if that is true, but even if it is it is
irrelevent.  If the Rabbi's ideas are not implemented, no one (Jew or
non Jew) will be able to lead a decent life.
--
"For all I care, you can send your money to the Hitler memorial fund, too, if
that pleases you."

From  arens@vaxa.isi.edu (Yigal Arens) in article <9323@venera.isi.edu>