From: cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart)
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Summary: What a mess!
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 06:55:19 GMT

In article <kbdnh8p.tcox@netcom.com> tcox@netcom.com (Thomas Cox) writes:
>	Why did they have to kill her?  [Followups to rec.martial-arts.] 
>
>rpwhite@cs.nps.navy.mil (rpwhite) writes:
>>Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com writes:
>
>>>A 19 year old nutcase was shot after she attacked a cop with a machete
>>>after breaking into the Chancellor's home in Berkeley.
>
>>I am bothered by the question: "Why did they have to shot her?"
>
>> [...] As the
>>papers reported she was under five and half feet and weighed about 100
>>pounds. She was by all accounts armed with a machete.
>  [...]
>>She wasn't a threat to anyone's life in that situation.
>
>	Good point.  Plenty of opportunity to wait, talk, and let
>	things calm down.  Maybe go get some tear gas on the side. 

Opportunity, maybe, if SHE wants to do that.
It takes two to tango, and it takes two to 
wield deadly weapons and stand there and talk.
If either party decides to attack, then the 
other party has no choice.  For all of the people
who were saying that someone with a knife can 
get you if they are within 20 or so feet, how do 
you feel about someone with a machete at 10 feet?

Tear gas; doesnt stop someone from closing a 10 or
20 foot gap and hacking you apart.  Neither does mace
(I have been hit with both, and it sucks, but it is 
not disabling).  Machete vs. nightstick is does not 
sound like a lot of fun.  Pardon me if I sit out that
dance ;-)

I assume that he did tell her to drop the weapon.
If so, any idea why she didnt do it?

>>So let's check out the cop. According to accounts he was an Oakland P.D.
>>K-9 officer. He most likely had a his disposal a trained attack dog, a
>>baton, a sidearm, and mace. With all that at his disposal, facing a 100
>>pound girl armed with a machete, he had to shoot and kill her?
>
>	Slow down.  I've trained a bit in a machete fighting style. 
>	No way for the cop to know her skill level.  I'll take the 
>	machete over the gun when it comes to fast takedown.  (Sorry
>	folks, but when Real People catch Real Bullets, they typically
>	don't react _at all_ for upwards of five seconds.  This is not
>	Hollywood.)

Assuming that he has the gun out and ready, he can 
put her down pretty fast.  Someone coming with a 
machete, in my book, gets a full 5 or 6 or 8 or
whatever rounds until they stop making forward 
progress...  Still, if I ordered them to drop the
weapon and they didnt do it, I would take that as
a sure sign that they feel that they need to keep
possesion of that deadly weapon.  At that point,
after being ordered to drop it, they are standing
on the brink, and all moves are going to be 
evaluated in the worst kind of light.  

>	If I have my dog there, and I like the dog, I'll kill the perp
>	before I'll put the dog out there to get its paw chopped off
>	and need to be put down.  The dog is the only assuredly
>	innocent party in this scene.  (Are you familiar with the
>	_real_ training given to police dogs?  They are NOT war dogs.) 

Yes.  K9 dogs are not cannon fodder.  They are 
used to flush suspects often, but not usually
if there is reason to believe that the perp is
armed.  Several cops I deal with are K9 folks,
and their dogs are pretty important to them.

>>Now they can trot out all the catchphrases that they do when they shoot
>>someone, but I say "GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK." 
>
>	Since I've got the training, I'd set the dog down ("Stay,
>	boy"), pull the nightstick and the mace, and take her two
>	handed.  Mace is a nice fast takedown in most cases, and it
>	screws their vision up in all cases.  Once her eyes stop
>	working, I can take my time and use the minimum force
>	required. 

If you were so bold, you whould be a fool to
try this without your partner standing there
ready to blow her away if she got the better 
of you.  Besides, think about it from the cops
perspective for a moment.  He or she didnt wake
up that morning intent on getting into some 
death dance with a person with a machete, using
only a nightstick.  To what extent should a police
officer risk his or her life in order to try to 
save the life of someone who is wielding a deadly 
weapon?  Clearly there is a line there somewhere.

>> [...] I think that this was just another case of an
>>incompetent asshole with a badge and a gun. 

I think this is just another case of someone
who thinks that the police have some sort of 
magic wands that they can wave to make people 
peaceful, another one of these assholes who 
says that it "shouldnt be that way" without 
any thought as to why it IS that way.

>	How much training does the typical cop get with a gun?  Many
>	hours a year, plus regular re-qualifying.

I wish they all got that much...

>	How much training does the typical cop get with any of the
>	other equipment (nightstick, mace, NOT the dog)?  In most
>	departments, *none*.

...but this is a good point.  Still, even if they 
have had martial arts training, anyone who will 
willingly put down their weapon (in this case a gun) 
to go hand to hand or nightstick to machete with a 
perp, is not practicing Law Enforcement, they are 
playing with a death wish, or they are the kind of 
person who LIKES doing this stuff, and you would 
really wonder if they are the right people to be police.

>  [assorted vengeful stuff deleted]
>
>>rp -- told you I have nothing against violence.
>
>	The guy used the tool he was trained to use.
>
>	Remember this when the local police complain that they don't
>	want to be under citizen oversight boards.
>
>	Followups to rec.martial-arts.
>
>	Cheers.
>	-- Tom
>-- 
>Tom Cox      DoD #1776   '91 CB 750 Nighthawk   tcox@netcom.netcom.com
>Yeah, I have a day job.  They don't believe me any more than you do.

Cherry