From: PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88)
Subject: Re: Martial Arts: Which system is the best...
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 05:00:01 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <1992Jul22.161857.15845@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> A@A writes:

>PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu writes:
>>Yes, the rules state that.  That's what I meant by 'do as I say, not as I
>>do.'  They tell you this, then proceed to design their mongoose style.  Game
>>rules are driven by example.
>>
>>My comment is just why not make a set of rules that would allow style 
>>building without having to introduce unbalancing mechanics?  I've seen
>>several just as good systems for martial arts, none of which had the
>>same possible abuse factor.  It can be done.

>That's like saying that a sewer worker *accidentally* left the manhole cover  
>off, so I have to walk into the manhole.  "It was there in my path."  

No, it's not.  The lack of a manhole cover does not imply that walking there
would be a good idea.  A game mechanic written in a book has a *very* strong
implication that this is a good idea, if it wasn't, then why would it be in
such a book?  After all, NH is, like all other supplements, an *advice* book.
Your example lacks this implied 'good idea' concept, so doesn't stand.

>Yes I can understand being fooled once into trying the martial arts design  
>rules.  But to some people it doesn't matter what kind of disclaimer Hero puts  
>on things, ( the disclaimer was pretty CLEAR, IMO )  And to some it doesn't  
>matter if there is a stop sign or a magnifying glass ---" it doesn't say 'DON'T  
>USE THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!', and so I can use it in my game, and if I  
>don't like it, well then Hero is just a bad system."

>See, I think that with anybody that plays Hero, they like the fact that Hero  
>tries to let you do as much as you can with their rules, so they don't give you  
>stock martial arts ( although in DI, they did ), instead they allow you to  
>design your own martial art.  Hero knows that the system is not watertight, and  
>so they put the mag-glass there to WARN the players.  Now, we can be curious  
>and try the system, but to say that it is Hero's fault because they allowed us  
>to do what we did, just doesn't wash.  ( I've seen alot of this " the  
>Magnifying Glass didn't properly warn me" stuff in this group for a while now.)

I think things are getting stretched past the point of their original intent,
but my original point is that the book (Ninja Hero) in general was not too well
balanced, and the design your own martial arts rules (especially in designing
your own manuevers) were a part of this.  You can't just say "Well it's becuase
you are using a looking-glass section."  I'd remind you that *every* Power
Structure in Hero is under a looking-glass.  Can you play Champions, for 
example, without a power structure?  Not likely.  (Well, you'll be unable to
re-crate many 'typical' comic book characters.)

Power structures are *necessary* to Champions, and they have the looking-glass.
The fact that designing your own martial arts has one too does little to warn
the GM.  The true warnings are around the optional martial arts design rules,
and these are well taken.  These are so imbalancing I don't think they should
have been put in the book.  (My opinion is driven around the fact that they are
abusive and serve no real purpose.)

Now, I ask you this: If players can design the rest of their characters, down
to the last little detail, why not thier martial arts?  After all, the list of
martial arts from NH is hardly complete.  If your answer is "because it is
imbalancing to do so" then why not simply create more balanced martial arts
rules?  And that's part of what my suggestions do.  After playing the game,
the list I  posted was created to take care of the largest balance problems.

>Also, James, you say that a system can allow you to build your own martial arts  
>styles, without the abuse.  That may be true, but will it allow you to build  
>fantastical MA-styles as well, for all spin-off genres: cyber martial arts?  
>starflung alien martial arts? those ridiculous ninja movies?  And if we limit  
>all martial arts to the same effects, don't we kinda get the same martial art  
>over and over again, seeing that the Hero way is to differentiate by the kind  
>of maneuver and not the maneuver itself?

Yes, I can do all of these easily, and still have full control over the special
effects.  It's called buying powers.  After all, martial arts is just some
powers and some skill levels.  You can customize it as you want just like you
can customize your powers.  Even Fist of the Northstar martial arts (death
touches, lightning strikes, running+slicing attacks) are just powers.

Martial arts, as a skill system, really only needs to cover the basics.  Anyone
with more exotic than that can simply go to the power section and buy what they
want.  Martial NNDs, killing attacks and full move attacks are just powers,
might as well buy them as such.  Then you don't have to worry if they are in
balance with other powers either, since they are powers themselves.

-james