HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tbeaudoin@vax1.umkc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: modern Native Americans and disease...
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:55:47 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City


	A question for alt.native...
	I am a teacher in a local high school and one of my students
in connection with the Columbus debate has asked whether Native Americans
today have any certain susceptibility to modern strains of smallpox or
any other disease.  Or is that something that Native Americans have relegated
to history?
	
	Thanks for any enlightenment anyone can give ...


Thomas Beaudoin

TBEAUDOIN@vax1.umkc.edu

Lee's Summit High School
Lee's Summit, MO
From: jbs@ee.egr.duke.edu (Joe B. Simpson)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Need cultural info on childbirth practices
Summary: traditions, customs, rituals, etc.
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:15:25 GMT
Reply-To: jbs@ee.egr.duke.edu
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Duke University EE Dept.; Durham, NC

My girlfriend is interested in finding out about customs surrounding childbirth
in other (non-US) cultures - in particular, southeast Asian and nearby Pacific
island, Latin-American, and American Indian cultures.

She would like to know about any customs, rituals, or traditions surrounding
childbirth, whether it be prenatal, at the time of delivery, or immediately
post-birth. Such things as birthing environment, preparation, religious
involvement, what members of the family or community are traditionally
present, and anything else that might be unique to a culture would be of
great interest to her.

If you have a spare moment and would like to share your knowledge or
experiences with her, it would be greatly appreciated. Please e-mail
responses to jbs@ee.egr.duke.edu, as I will be unable to keep up with all the
newsgroups involved.  Please indicate on your messages which culture the
information is for, as I am posting this request to many newsgroups.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

  -joe

jbs@ee.egr.duke.edu
-- 
                You spend the night
            Like you were spending a dime

                   - Lyle Lovett

X-Spook-Fodder: CIA NSA FBI SBI Bush overthrow uprise assasinate anarchy
From: murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: OSU to Renew Involvement in Mt. Graham Telescope Project? (reposted from alt.native)
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:15:27 GMT
Reply-To: csd4.csd.uwm.edu!jgd@uunet.ca
Distribution: na
Organization: Applications Software II, MITEL Corporation, Kanata, Ontario,
	Canada


(I had taken the liberty of reposting the original article in sci.astro
to try and spread a bit more balanced of a discussion.  My posting
elicited the following reply which I thought would be better handled by
the readers of this group)


From jgd@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Thu Oct  8 08:38:37 1992
Return-Path: <csd4.csd.uwm.edu!jgd@uunet.ca>
Date: 	Wed, 7 Oct 1992 19:27:41 -0400
From: John G Dobnick <jgd@csd4.csd.uwm.edu>
To: murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM
Subject: Re: OSU to Renew Involvement in Mt. Graham Telescope Project? (reposted from alt.native)

> 
>      I have refrained until now from explaining the Apache belief
> in sacred mountains and the role of the Mountain Spirits who
> dwell within them because (1) there is a limited amount of
> information I can reveal without betraying confidences, and (2)

I guess I lost you here.  What "confidences"?  Are you speaking about
'secret sacred rituals and beliefs/knowledge' that is not suitable for
the 'uninitiated'?

> many Apaches fear exposure to ridicule if these beliefs become
> known by "the wrong people." The controversy over Mt. Graham has


Please define "wrong people".  You probably don't mean this, but your
phrasing makes this sound like the Apache are 'paranoid'.  Perhaps they
just wish to maintain religious 'privacy'?  Or maybe I am just
mis-reading what you wrote?

> received such attention on this list, without an explanation of
> the belief in its sacredness, that I feel such an explanation
> must now be given.

I don't see anything particularly "ridiculous" in the belief in
"mountain spirits".  Seems to me that various African animists hold
similar beliefs. (Or the Shinto in Japan?)  The Polynesians hold that
Madam Pele exists.  Seems like a simple case of non-Judeo-Christian
beliefs to me.

The above is meant as a 'challenge' to your "betraying a confidence"
argument, if such an argument is based on the potential for
"ridicule".  Now, if your "confidence argument" is based on a personal
pledge of silence, that's another matter entirely.  Or, is there
something here that I've missed, entirely?

-- 
John G Dobnick  (Confused by all this)  ATTnet: (414) 229-5727
Computing Services Division             INTERNET: jgd@uwm.edu
University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee     UUCP: uunet!uwm!jgd

"Knowing how things work is the basis for appreciation,
and is thus a source of civilized delight."  -- William Safire



--
Gary Lawrence Murphy/murphyg@software.mitel.com/mitel!software!murphyg@uunet.ca
 Mitel Corp - 350 Legget Drive, Kanata, Ontario, Canada - (613) 592-2122 x3709
  "Be as children: handle what comes up as it comes up." --- Morita
From: Alan McGowen <alanm@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.native
Date: 10 Oct 92 02:30 PDT
Subject: Columbus was a crackpot
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1308200084:000:2574
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!alanm    Oct 10 02:30:00 1992


Special Columbus Day post.
************************************************************************


Christopher Columbus was a crackpot.

Crackpots are the people who today pester scientists with 
perpetual motion machines, engines to extract electricity from 
the atmosphere, proofs that special relativity is wrong, arcane 
arguments against quantum mechanics or thinnly-disguised 
religious fanaticism opposed to evolution. The defining character 
of a crackpot is a lack of understanding of the science he 
believes himself to have supplanted: a scientific radical on the 
other hand is well aware of the reasons for the positions he 
disgrees with even though they are almost universally accepted.

Columbus was not dismissed because he thought the world was round 
and entrenched opinion held that it was flat: this is a public-
school myth. All educated people in Columbus' time knew that the 
Earth was round. Columbus was dismissed because he thought that 
the world was much smaller than it really is, and the evidence 
available at the time strongly -- and correctly -- implied that 
he had to be wrong. He thought that Asia lay some two or three 
thousand miles west of Europe. Measurements of the Earth's 
diameter from early Greek antiquity had implied that the Earth 
was much larger than this. They varied from a bit under the 
correct value to a few times the correct value. By an odd stoke 
of luck, the earliest Greek measurement had been fairly close to 
the correct value, while all subsequent measurements tended to 
overestimate the size of the Earth -- that being the natural 
direction of error in the measurements.

Columbus couldn't get the support of a well-informed monarch -- 
he got the support of a poorly-informed one, who was willing to 
spend money on his crackpot scheme to reach the Indies 
(Indonesia) by travelling west. 

Asia lies more than eleven thousand miles west of Europe. Had the 
continents of this hemisphere not lain in between, he and his 
crew would have died of starvation, as the cartography and 
navigation scholars predicted he would. As he arrived in the 
Carribean, he thought that he was arriving in the area we now 
call Indonesia. He never did realize how wrong he was.

But in the end it didn't matter. There may not have been 
Indonesian spices, but there were plenty of slaves and rumors of 
gold. The Carribean natives where he landed were soon extinct, 
and the Conquistadors were not far behind Christopher Columbus, 
crackpot extrordinaire.

Crackpots can do incredible harm.

------------
Alan McGowen
From: Pat O'Brien <naturist@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.native
Date: 09 Oct 92 18:21 PDT
Subject: Re: Info on pre-Columbian North America
Nf-ID: #R:1992Oct8.053736.24785@u.washingt:154329127:cdp:1308200082:000:1491
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!naturist    Oct  9 18:21:00 1992


The argument over mounds and syllabary are all interesting, but a lot more 
fun question is why, in the search for their traditions, have not more Native
American groups investigated how the missionaries and other whites first began
undermining Native traditions. They did it by putting clothes on them.

This is still the way, as these culture thieves plod their way through 
the indigenous peoples of the lower Americas and elsewhere. Nudity and body
acceptance is natural; ancient and pre-white cultures on this continent and
on others instinctively knew that.

A clothing-obsessed society is a troubled one, mired in the puritanical
garbage of the Judeo-Christian epoch. What has the gift of the white man's 
religion and his clothing brought to native peoples anywhere but misery. It's
so subtle we don't even see it most of the time unless we're looking for it.

How about the "Millenium" program. We were told from the onset that one of the
tribal societies to be examined in the show were nude. Yet when the cameras
zoom in, it appears David what's his name has swooped in with a crate of 
matching sports shorts to cover up the "natural" people before the camera.

Columbus was a conqueror and one of the things he and so many others stole
from the natives they encountered was their nudity, an integral part of 
their cultures. 

Hope I haven't stepped on any toes here. I don't post in this area often.
And what the heck, it
s the 500th birthday of Columbus' days of infamy.

Pat
From: milo@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Michele Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Columbus Day Parade Cancelled!
Keywords: Denver, Colorado
Date: 11 Oct 92 19:40:12 GMT
Organization: Alpha Institute, Aurora, CO.


    It was a good day in Denver.  The Italian-American
Federation cancelled the Columbus Day Parade. When word was
brought by the Parade representative, Russell Means was 
momentarily speechless and moved to tears. He said, "I am 
extremely elated the the federation has chosen the moral high 
ground. All the judges and politicians can go to hell." The
power of the people and a sense of justice had done what the
politicians and courts had refused to do.
    The day started with a sunrise ceremony attended by close
to a thousand people committed to stopping the parade. People
from groups as diverse as The New Jewish Agenda, the Nation of
Islam and the American Friends Service Committee silently
prepared themselves for a day the media, the politicians, and
the police was sure to hold violence and injuries along with many
arrests. 
    After the ceremony, speakers from AIM (American Indian Movement) 
spoke at the amphitheatre in Civic Center Park. They spoke of commitment 
to non- violence, their thankfulness for the representation of all the 
races and the need to stand together against oppression, racism and
genocide.
    A few minutes before the parade was to start and the
demonstrators were to block the street the word was received.
Already, the majority of the groups in the Columbus Day Parade had
cancelled. The parade had maybe a hundred people and one float. The
police and members of the press far outnumbered the parade participants. 
   The Italian-American Federation asked for permission to march the
couple of blocks to the State Capital steps for a small rally in
place of their parade. Permission was granted but not until after the 
victory parade led by Russell Means and the Elders and leaders of the 
demonstration. Our Victory Parade wound around Civic Center Park through 
the display of 90 burned out tepees erected the night before as a 
memorial to the hundreds of massacres of Native Americans.
   The cancellation of the parade was victory. But we were reminded
by speakers that it will be a hollow victory if we do not continue
to demand the end of Columbus Day as a national holiday. We must 
continue to work for reconciliation between the races and the end 
of government oppression that attempts to hide genocide and the 
destruction of the Earth.
    In the afternoon a victory pow-wow was held at the Tall Bull
Memorial Grounds south of Denver. It was a good day.

+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+**+
          Michele Lord               *  Walk in Peace with
      milo@scicom.alphacdc.com       *  our Mother Earth 
                                     *  and our Father Sky.
+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*+=*
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Is Anyone Familiar with this Book?
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:28:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Davis

I'm thinking of ordering through the mail (from Barnes & Noble) a book
called "Myths and Tales of the American Indians", Ed. by John Bierhorst.
The blurb in the catalog states, 

"Each one distinct in metaphorical and narrative convention, these 64
carefully selected myths and tales represent over 40 cultures, including
Eskimo, Iroquois, and Navajo. Includes 'The Flight of Quetzalcoatl', 
'The Rival Chiefs', 'The Hungry Old Woman', 'Two Friends', more."

Is anyone out there familiar with this book? Would it be a good collection
of stories to read to children?

Thanks.

Richard
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!northeastern.edu!MEDINA
Subject: Re: George-Kamentiio Mohican rev
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 19:26:00 GMT

Original-Sender: northeastern.edu!MEDINA

Jack Frisch says:
>Excellent!  Finally, a review that makes some sense and appropriately
>strong points about the latest version of LAST OF THE MOHICANS!!

I agree with many of the comments by Doug George-Kamentiio on this movie.
Hollywood has been trying to present a "realistic" image of Indians
in the latest producctions. That is why we hear Lakota language in
"Dances with wolves" (as opposed to Tonto-style broken English),
and see tatoos and other features of Eastern Indian attire in "The last
of the Mohicans" (as opposed to buckskins, wigs, and floor-length head
dresses everywhere).

Nevertheless, these are only improvements to try to outdo past movies;
not a sincere attempt to understand history and present the events
in context. No doubt there was violence at the time; but how did it
start? Who was being pushed? How were alliances established? For people
who don't know this history (and that is the sad state of the common
movie-goer), all what happens in the movie is no more than action shots
that might as well take place in a Chuck Norris production, with the
added damage that people end up reinforcing the old false ideas they
had with respect to Indians, thanks to this "realistic" movie..

The bottom line is that the movie industry has not changed but the
presentation of the same basic paradigms when it comes to Indians:
The noble savage (Dances with wolves), the bloodthirsty savage
(Black robe), and the vanishing savage (The last of the Mohicans).
Moreover, all three movies are presented from the point of view
of a white man.

In my opinion, the best movies where Indians are the central characters
are "Powwow Highway" and "At play in the fields of the Lord."

Daniel E. Medina


Newsgroups: alt.native
From: speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Arlen Speights)
Subject: Re: Racism and theories of pre-Columbian Old-World-New-World contact
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 19:07:47 GMT

twarner@carson.u.washington.edu (Tom Warner) writes:

>	Basically, I think there are two angles to look at the question from:

>	1) Do suggestions that aspects of Native American culture have an
>Old-World heritage insult Native Americans?

	I think they're more dangerous than insulting per se.  For instance,
the fact that Indians in the Eastern part of North America built square
mounds with significant geographical alignment prompted the explorers and
settlers to assume that we were descendents of one of the twelve tribes of 
Israel--of course that notion is too ridiculous to get insulted about with
a straight face, but it continues the terrible idea that Indians should
be measured against Old World criteria for reference.  I don't see these
ideas waning at all, even with this year's increased awareness of Native
American identity.  If the government inhibits the understanding of what
it means to relate to an American Indian on hir terms, it may then continue
to avoid accountability.  That's where the danger lies in suggesting Old
World origins for Indian traditions--it reinforces the stereotype that we 
are culturally dysfunctional Eurpoeans, and do not deserve accountability
until we can meet european standards.

>	But is it insulting to suggest that there was a great deal of contact
>between various Old World and New World cultures prior to Columbus?

I read once that the introduction of the bow and arrow could have been
due to european contact in the far northeast.  I don't find that insulting:
I find the notion of resistance to technology to be a primary difference
of Indian culture.  The death of that notion could be the downfall of our
existence, our world's existence.  Literary technology is likewise contrary
to eco-socio-etc equilibrium, IMHO.  Written languages allow cultures to
overcome nature's control of information by teaching us to look outside our
selves and elders for information; asking the dead how to remain living, how
to build a chemical refinery.
	So I don't think it's insulting to suggest precolumbian Old World
contact.  These languages could easily have developed here on their own
as well, of course, but aren't there many instances of contact agreed upon?

Arlen
-- 
:-(-:-(-:-(-:-( speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu )-:-)-:-)-:-)-:
"Even now, we scarcely feel our hearts beat before they break in protest"
                                                         -Stanley Diamond
                                                                       --
Newsgroups: alt.native

              Please answer these 9 questions and return.

1.) Do you think equal rights for men and women is generally a good idea?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

2.) Are you pro choice?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

3.) Are you in favor of adoption?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

4.) Do you think men should be allowed to legally terminate their parental
rights and responsibilities before fetal viability?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

5.) What sex are you?
Male               [ ]
Female             [ ]

6.) How old are you?
Under 18           [ ]
19 to 65           [ ]
Over 65            [ ]

7.) What religion are you?
Protestant         [ ]
Catholic           [ ]
Jewish             [ ]
Other              [ ]

8.) What political party are you affiliated with?
Democratic         [ ]
Republican         [ ]
Other              [ ]

9.) How many years of education have you completed?
Grade School       [ ]
High School        [ ]
College            [ ]
More               [ ]
From: agoyo1@yog-soggoth.MIT.EDU (Acee Agoyo)
Subject: Re: Info on pre-Columbian North American native writing systems wanted
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 19:56:45 GMT

Tom Warner writes:
>	I am looking for sources of information on native North American
>writing systems, particularly the Micmac pictographic/symbolic system and
>the Cree syllabary. I have Barry Fell's "America B.C." where I was stunned
>to read that these writing systems are widely known and were, according to
>prevailing academic opinion, invented by European missionaries and then
>taught to the native people. (supposedly because the systems were easier
>for native people to use and not because the native people were already using
>them.)
The story, for those who don't know, is that one of the missionaries invented 
the heiroglyphic system to help the Micmac read scriptures and stuff.  The 
truth is that the system was already in use before the missionaries appearance.  
>	Fell, by the way, has rather convincing comparisons showing the
>similarities of the Micmac system to Egyptian Hieratic writing and the Cree
>syllabary to medieval Basque. Does anyone know what I'm talking about or
>have any opinions about this? Or know where I can find out more?
I have the same book and the similarities do seem convincing.  He also says
the Pima Creation Chant is essentially Arabic.  Pretty weird.  He also says
that the Zuni language is derived from ancient Lybian, Egyptian, and Nubian.
This is kind of odd because some words in Zuni are the same in my language,
Tewa, and my mother's, Keres.  (like musa or muus meaning cat)  It's kind
of hard to believe any of the similarities he makes but they do seem
convincing and all.  I guess the best place to find out if it is true is
to learn Zuni and study ancient Lybian, Egyptian, and Nubian and see if all
the grammar rules he states in the book are true.    
>	Although Fell does not discuss it, this makes me wonder also about
>the credibility of the historical theory that the Cherokee syllabary was
>invented by a Western-educated Cherokee and then taught to his people,
>also supposedly because the syllabary was easier for Cherokee speakers
>to use and not because the Cherokee were already using it. Does anyone
>know more about this topic or where to go for more info?
>	
>	I'm working on an essay for the student newspaper here along the
>lines that Columbus Day should be a day to think about the pervasiveness
>of dogma, even (especially?) in academia. I would also welcome any thoughts
>on this subject in general.

Acee Agoyo
agoyo1@athena.mit.edu
From: pattisan@midiline.la.ca.us (Patti Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: INDIAN COUNTRY TODAY
Date: 16 Oct 92 02:59:49 GMT
Organization: MIDILine BBS - Altadena, CA - (818) 797-3285


   Have you seen the new look of the Lakota Times?  I must say I was 
impressed...I got mine yesterday and read it all at one sitting. It
really looks terrific and has a lot more polish. 
   There were also big ads from the different Nations calling for Native
American day instead of columbus day...write your congresscritters today
...I faxed mine. It's a great idea whose time has come!
    Subscribe to the new Indian Country Today too
From: MXM204@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: research
Date: 16 Oct 92 20:47:50 GMT
Organization: Mythos/Xcalbrin Inc.
X-School: Penn State University

I am looking for books or anything dealing with native american folk lore
and legends.  I would really appreciate it if anyone could give me some
ideas on books to read, or on places to send for information..  I am doing a
thesis on this, and any information would be helpful.  Thanks.
Newsgroups: alt.native