HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:45:54 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <75209@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin) writes:
# 
# One thing I wonder about...
# 
# What if the perp is armed with a knife and starts walking very deliberately
# towards you from 20 feet away.  I know many anti-gun types who have said about
# cops in similar situations "he had a gun, why couldn't he just shoot him in
# the leg or something?".  In fact, cops have had to undergo a lot of invest-
# igation on that point here in Atlanta, although as far as I know they have
# all been (eventually) exonerated.  Still, if you get a civil jury trial this
# point can be made to sound very convincing by the plaintiffs lawyers.  So, if
# you were in this situation, why not shoot for the legs (assuming you have a
# big enough gun and are a good enough shot)?
# 

I'd suggest viewing Surviveing Edged Weapons by calibre press.  What the
research has pointed out is that if someone is within like 21 feet (or was it
24 feet), that person will be able to attack you with an edged weapon before
you can stop the attack.  
 
#From an officer's perspective, I can say if someone is walking towards me from
20 feet away with a knife and is not following my verbal commands (if I even
have time to give them, which is unlikely), they are going to get shot.  It
would be a justified shoot.
 
As far as the typical liberal "hey, shoot for the legs" arguement.  What if I
miss?  In critical incident situations, you lose about 70 percent of your skill
level (Dr. William Lewinski, you can see his name and some of his credits of
you look through your copy of Tactical Edge in the credits section).  This is
not the time to take any chances with your life or the life of others.  Also a
let shot is not as great as stopping someone as a center mass shot might be. 
What if you just graze the leg? It's a smaller target, it sure can happen...

Fortunarely for officers and civilians the "shoot for the leg" bit hasn't
fairly very well in court...
 

# -- 
# John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
# -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
# Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
# Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
# 
Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Little-known membership benefits of the NRA
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:45:14 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Nov13.172122.28167@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#In article <7dGH02Nl2aX.01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger) writes:
#}In article <9211090626.AA13672@relay2.UU.NET>, m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY) writes:
#
#}#I guarantee that the NRA sticker is used by the DC police as probable
#}#cause to search your vehicle for contraband firearms.
#}
#}Is this really legal (as in upheld in court)??
#}I knoiw they probably WOULD search you in any case, but could they make 
#}it hold up in a court as probable cause, or will they have to "invent"
#}something else (and we ALL know THAT doesn't happen, right??)??
#
#As explained to me by an active LAPD officer, "probable cause" need only
#exist in the mind of the officer on the scene.  It will likely be based on
#something you know nothing about (e.g.:  He just got a radio bulletin
#about a bank robber driving a getaway car of your make, model and color)
#and he's not obliged to explain it to you.

All a police officer has to have to search or arrest you, according
to the Bill of Rights, is probable cause. At any time, at any place.
Of course, the officer will be expected to demonstrate in open court
his "probable cause;" if he can't, he (and the department) are open
to charges...

#I don't hang any unnecessary stickers or messages on my car.  With all the
#jurisdictions in L.A. (I drive through four just going to work) you never
#know who might be taking an interest or what their department policy is
#that day.

I've heard that the two most effective things to have are a "support
your local sherrif/trooper/police association" or a National Guard
(or Nat'l Guard dependent) ID. (Most of the police around these 
parts are/were in the Oklahoma National Guard.)


				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	I feel lucky, I feel lucky yeah
	Hey Dwight, Hey Lyle, boys, you don't have to fight,
	Hot dog, I feel lucky tonight
			--Mary-Chapin Carpenter, "I Feel Lucky"
From: DENNIS_@ncsu.edu (DGA)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:32:40 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University



In adoration of our Esteemed and Omnipotent (but fair-to-a-fault) Moderator.

Sirs;

In the short time since I first gained access to rec.guns I have been guilty 
of increasing our E&O (b f-t-a-f) moderator's workload by posting comments 
with too much of a political flavor for his taste.  I have yet to be 
offended in any way by his comments or by the fact that my posts were not 
accepted.  

I have never seen a more judicious use of ultimate power.  I hope that 
the intemperate remarks of what I am sure is a very minute minority will be 
ignored and not taken to heart.

I, for at least one, am thankful that I do not have to be subjected to the 
drivel of anti-gunners that would surely be the result of an unmoderated 
group.  I am amazed that we haven't been forced to ante up for a legal 
defense fund to keep our Moderator out ofjail on any number of assault 
charges resulting from him being subjected to the raw garbage that is the 
anti-gun mob.  That is certainly a testament to his tolerance.

A heartfelt thanks and at least three, but more for those so disposed, 
cheers for the only gun-control we should ever submit to.... our
Esteemed and Omnipotent (but fair-to-a-fault) Moderator.

DGA

[MODERATOR:  I can't resist passing at least this post along.  Gosh,
maybe I really *should* run for some kind of office....?]
From: zwbm07@hou.amoco.com (Walter Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Carrying Weapons Laws - Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:07:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: hou.1992Nov16.162600.12840
Organization: Amoco

I'm going to travel from Houston Texas to St. Louis Missouri and back again.
I was wondering what the laws were concerning carrying handguns in/thru the
states of Oklahoma, Arkansas and Missouri.  I know that I can carry in Texas while
traveling. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

---
TTYL & TANSTAAFL ---------------- Walter Moore 
      Internet: wbmoore@hou.amoco.com

..SCUBA divers do it with depth...blub...blub...blub...
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: RUGER P90DC INFO. NEEDED
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:31:39 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <4mjq-!d@lynx.unm.edu> vtroll%triton.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Vincent Trollinger) writes:
#Can anyone help me with information or comments on the pistol above ?
#I want your opinions on what you think about this weapon, i.e. reliability,
#accuracy, etc. 
#Also, if you have seen them for sale, any approx prices would be helpful,
#new or used.
#I appreciate it, as I might have a chance to buy one in a few days.      

I owned and carried one for about 9 months.  To be honest, I hated it.
It was a .45, and it was da/sa, but that was about all it had going
for it.  It isn't that particularly cheap compared to many 1911 clones
out there.  Don't pay more thant $325 for a new one.

Dislikes:

Lousy trigger, really lousy, like out of the box you it felt like
there was grit in the workings, this was true for all the P90DCs I
tried.

Inconsistant shooting.  I'm not a great shot, but with my 1911 I can
put 9 out of 9 on an 8 1/2" X 11" piece of paper at 30 feet, with my
Taurus I can do 16 out of 16.  With the Ruger I was lucky to hit the
damn paper.  Plus mine shot *way* low.  Like about 8" at 30 feet, no
matter what I fed it.

Weight.  For a gun with only 7+1 it was very heavy, plus it was huge.

Ugly.  (IMHO)

Likes:

It is DA/SA.

The decocker was nice, but I'm very used to letting the hammer down on
all my guns, so it was kinda different to use a decocker.

It fed very reliably, not a single jam, even with reloads.  No
problems with HPs. 


Recommendations:

Stay away from this gun.  It is functional, and it seems to feed
reliably, but you can get a better gun for about the same, or a little
more money.

-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #Space For Rent
From: 49ers@eb5ts4.EBay.Sun.COM (Renie Maycon)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: ACP
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:09:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: male.1e9hrfINN644
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.

Can someone tell me what ACP stands Does it stand for Automatic Colt Pistol?

Why do so many people bad mouth the Glock guns?
From: mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu (Sting)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Sig Thanks
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:04 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH


To the overwhelming number of Sig owners who responded to my post seeking
opinions about the P226 & P228, my most sincere thanks.  I've heard _nothing_
bad from anyone about either of these two weapons so far...

Thanks!
-Sting, going shopping soon...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael J. Fromberger
Consultant:  Computer Resource Center / Consultants' Office
Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
CRC: (603) 646-2626  CONS: (603) 646-3417  HOME: (603) 643-5716
Sting@Dartmouth.EDU / mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu / 69224f@d1
  all requests granted - all grants requested!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 45 ACP, 9mm
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:09:24 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


In article <m5mauB1w164w@upchrch.UUCP> upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
#
#While I have reservations about the 10mm as a pistol ammo, I suspect
#that it might find a place as carbine and submachine gun ammo.

While I agree that the 10mm should give good performance out of
a submachine gun, I doubt it will ever be a popular cartridge
even for this.  One reason for the existence for the submachine
gun is to give improved performance with AVAILABLE pistol cartridges.
Since it does not appear likely that the 10mm will be widely adopted
as a pistol cartridge, it will probably never be a popular sub gun
cartridge either.  As an example, look at the available sub guns now.
Almost all are 9mm, since almost all service pistols are 9mm.  When
.45 ACP was a popular service cartridge, .45 ACP sub guns were popular,
but now they are fairly rare.

#It
#should achieve quite respectable energies when fired out of a carbine
#barrel. I wouldn't be surprised, based on the results I've read with
#.357 Magnum fired out of a carbine, if the energies for the 155 grain
#bullet weren't up in the 30-30 range. There would be obvious advantages
#to getting assault rifle like performance out of a submachine gun.
#
#Has anybody seen any actual reports on the muzzle velocities of the
#new 10mm submachine guns?

Yes, in the latest guns and ammo they fired 10mm out of a Thompson carbine
with a 16 inch barrel.  The hottest load, PMC 170gr JHP, reached 1293 fps
with energy of 668 ft-lbs.  This is considerably lower than .30-30 which
will reach about 2400-2500 fps or so with a 130-150gr bullet.  In contrast,
IMI 125 gr JHP .357 reaches 2031 fps in a 16 inch barrel (1145 ft-lbs) and
the Remington 140 gr reaches 1894 fps is the same barrel (1115 ft-lbs).  The
.44 magnum, using the IMI 180 gr JHP, reaches 2175 fps (1891 ft-lbs) in an 18
inch barrel.

-- 
John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: *** GLOCK *** 21, 22, and 23
Date: 22 Nov 92 03:18:07 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman) writes:

#I'm interested in buying a Glock, probably for carry purposes (concealed???).
#I know they are big, but is there a difference between the Glock .45 ACP and
#.40 S&W size-wise?  How about the 22 & 23?
	Yes.  Yes.	Big, medium, small.  The .45 is very wide, and 
	is not comfortable for some people.
#Does anyone regularly carry the 21, 22, or 23?  Is it uncomfortable?  (I will
#be using a horizontal shoulder outfit.)
	It will be less comfortable than a flat gun like a 1911.  Glocks
	are bulkier.   Try wearing it before you buy one if that is what
	you want it for.
#Are the barrel lengths all the same?
	No.   4.6, 4.5, 4.0".   25, 22, 21 oz.
#How much difference in kick is there between the 40 and 45?
	None that I could tell.  I would expect the .40s to be 
	harsher because the grips are narrower and the guns are
	lighter, but all those Glocks feel the same to me.  (mild)
#Does one tend to be more accurate than the other?  Feed better?
	Nope.   Size and caliber, that's all.
#Is the .45 worth the extra $40 or so that it costs?
	If you want .45, then pay the money.   You will have the more
	powerful caliber, and the more effective of the two for 
	self defense.   If you don't care about that, or prefer a 
	smaller gun, get the .40.
#Lastly, where is the cheapest place I could order the 21, 22, and 23?  I've
#seen $399 for the 22 and 23, and $439 for the 21, is there anywhere cheaper?
	Those prices all sound about right.
Jim Del Vecchio
From: mporter@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Matthew D Porter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Taurus PT99 AF
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:45:34 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

Hello,

     I've been reading this group for six months now and I think I'm ready to 
purchase my first handgun.  I settled on a 9mm auto, and because of cost (I'm 
still in school) I would like to get a Browning Hi-Power or a Taurus.  Ok, an 
acquaintance is selling his Taurus PT99AF and he's not sure how much it is 
worth.  I have not fired it yet (I will), but I know it has only had 200-300 
rounds put through it and it is missing a little blueing where the slide has 
been moving.  I checked the blue book values, and assuming it is 95% condition,
its average worth is $270.  My question is:  Are these values accurate?  I'm 
concerned that these values are under current retail.  I'd like to hear what 
Taurus' sell for in the real world.  I will probably check prices at my local 
gun stores as well, to get an idea of what to offer.

Thanks for your help,
-- 
 Matthew D Porter       (mporter@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu)
     "Arrogance and Ignorance go in hand . . . "
          -Metallica (Holier Than Thou)
From: gtao@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Greg )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 45 ACP, 9mm
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:05:57 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

dstine@cisco.com (David Stine) writes:

#ya, know, this sets me to thinking: the 10 would seem (at first blush) to be
#about the right size for a gas-operated semi carbine, say something like an
#updated M1 Carbine. A full-house 10 or (ha!) a +P 10 tends to eat handguns up,
#but where you could devote some more beef to the receiver and a gas machanism,
#I would think that it might be a decent round for a brush-busting deer
#carbine.

Somewhat along the same lines, I have always wanted to see an Uzi, an
Uzi pistol, or a MAC-10 style gun chambered in .30 Carbine.  If you
modified the casing, it would seem that you could have about a 25% increase
in magazine capacity, which would translate into a lot of fun at the range!

Plus, I happen to be a huge fan of the M1 Carbine.  I'll swear by it.


*******************************************************************************
* Gregory Tao                      | E-mail to:  gt38091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu     * 
* Univ. of IL at Urbana-Champaign  |        OR      gtao@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu     *
* Department of Computer Science   |        OR      gtao@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu     *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *
*                                                                             *
*  	``Change, suddenly, is everywhere we look, sweeping empires and       *
*    ideologies before it, shaping a new era even as we watch. Such moments   *
*    are rare. Today we stand at such a moment.''                             * 
*                                                                             *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* DISCLAIMER:  My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of CCSO or the    *
*              University of Illinois.					      *
*******************************************************************************
From: rps@hoqax.att.com (Robert P Schwendel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Adjusting sights
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:12:36 GMT
Organization: AT&T

The following is posted for a friend; you may reply to me. Thanks.

Begin forwarded:

I started shooting a 357, 6" barrel Ruger. I have not yet adjusted
the sights (until I can get my groups smaller).

My groups are low and to the right. I think trigger flinch still 
accounts for some of it, but not sure how much is due to flinch and 
how much is due to sights being off.

I can adjust the sights to compensate but am getting the impression
that doing this to soon would cover up shooting inaccuracy. 

So, do I keep practicing until I get my groups smaller, and then
adjust the sights? 

If I adjust the sights now, am I making up for a flaw in shooting skill
and how does one know when the skills are honed or the sights
are adjusted to compensate for the shooting flinch?

Thanks in Advance!

Tom Neigel 

End forwarded:

Bob
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Saw Double Action Only AMT Backup
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:47:19 GMT
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

I was trading e-mail with another member of this group the other day,
when I said that my ideal pocket gun would be .380 with a Colt Mustang
Pocketlite form factor and a double action only trigger.

I was in the Sports Authority earlier this evening, looking over their
stock when I noticed a new pistol. It was a double action AMT Backup. It
was sitting next to a Pocketlite and they were about the same size. I
asked the clerk to let me look at it. It apparently has a five round
magazine, fires .380ACP and has 2.5 inch barrel. It is double action
only as far as I can determine, the hammer didn't stay back when I
worked the slide. The trigger is heavy, about like a PPK I'd say. It
is bigger than a single action Backup and doesn't actually resemble
one much. I suspect it is a new design and they are using the Backup
name for marketing purposes. The magazine release is a European style
heel release. They were asking $250 for it. Sports Authority usually
has pretty good discounts, so the list price would probably be around
$330.

This gun looked pretty attractive to me. With a holster to keep it
from getting dirty it looks like something you could carry around
in your front pocket without arousing comment, especially if the
holster helped break up the outline. It is a lot smaller than a
PPK or SIG P230. The biggest problem I could see with it was it's
name. Comments I've read in this group indicate that the single
action Backup is a piece of junk and I don't recall very many
kind comments about AMT in general in this forum.

Does anybody know anything more about this pistol?

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: distance a .22 lr travels
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:10:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: CERIS.1992Nov16.220548.10244
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Nov16.055857.1541@netcom.com>, by pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune):
# Well, there has been much talk lately about shooting safety, and one thing
# which seems to constantly come up is knowing what is beyond your target, and
# having a good backstop.  As an IPSC shooter, I agree with and obey these rules.
# My question though, concerns hunters: When taking shots at deer or birds in
# flight, or whatever, more times than not you don't have a clear backstop, or
# one at all (shooting in the air).  Isn't this in violation of the above rules,
# since you pretty much have no idea where that bullet is going to land?  
# Incidentally, this is one reason I'm somewhat leary of hunting...seems that the
# chances of getting nailed by a stray round aren't exactly high, but they're
# there.  Hmmm...
#

Well, I don't believe I've ever heard of or seen anyone try to
wingshoot birds with a rifle.  The shotgun won't carry far (200
yds? for birdshot).

Many people did (and do) hunt squirrels with .22 rifles (and now
pistols).  I have wondered about this myself.  How much does the
tree rat slow the bullet down?  My remembrance is through and
through wounds were the usual thing...

You should be aware of what is _beyond_ your target.  
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)