HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Let's Examine our Attitudes
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:23:47 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Ken Mann writes:
> Bruce Tiffany writes:
>> I can't believe any followers of Yeshua haMashiach ever told your son he was
>> sinking in the water because he didn't believe.  And I think you undermine
>> your own credibility when you assert that they did.
> and...
>> I won't believe him, either, if he says they told him that.
> 
> Why is this so hard to believe?  With all the crazy things televangelists
> spew forth, I find it very easy to believe someone, with what they thought
> were good intentions, could say something like that.  Are personal attacks
> against Rob really necessary?  While Rob does not agree with the major
> topic of alt.messianic (that Y'Shua is Messiah), I have not witnessed him
> attacking those who do.  All he has asked for is apologies from those who
> continue to attack him.

I have yet to see anybody attack him.

As for myself, I simply said I do not believe him.

It seems that he is attacking MJ's, and attempting to somehow associate them
with what he claims happened to his kids years ago.

> More importantly, some of the posters professing to be MJs need to examine
> their attitudes in light of the writings of a very wise Jew:
> 
> Proverbs:
> 
> 10:19:  When words are many, sin is not absent,
>         but he who holds his tongue is wise.
> 
> 11:12   A man who lacks judgement derides his neighbor,
>         but a man of understanding holds his tongue.
> 
> 12:16   A fool shows his annoyance at once,
>         but a prudent man overlooks an insult.
> 
> 12:18   Reckless words pierce like a sword,
>         but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
> 
> 12;23   A prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself,
>         but the heart of fools blurts out folly.
> 
> 13:3    He who guards his lips guards his life,
>         but he who speaks rashly will come to ruin.
> 
> 15:1    A gentle answer turns away wrath,
>         but a harsh word stirs up anger.
> 
> (this list of proverbs borrowed from rec.music.christian where it was
> necessary to be posted there too)

All true and good.  I haven't seen any foolish or rash answers on the part
of the MJ's here.  We are simply challenging Rob Strom's assertions, which
is not only warranted, but well within the framework of discussion.  Besides,
Rob keeps pushing the issue.  Why should he expect it not to be challenged?

I don't believe you, Rob Strom.  Nobody ever told your he was sinking in
the water because he didn't believe.  I am not annoyed, and I am not angry.
I simply do not believe what you say, even if you do (i.e., I'm not
accusing you of lying; I assume you believe what you say).

Now, who's being foolish?

-- BT
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: degroot@mksol.dseg.ti.com (doug degroot)
Subject: Book: The Bible and UFO's (can you help?)
Keywords: Bible, UFOs
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:51:00 GMT

I am trying to find what appears to be an obviously out of print book. I found
this book in the Merridian, Mississippi library, of all places, while selling
Bibles in Mississippi the summer I graduated from high school. The book was
entitled something like "The Bible and UFOs" or "UFOs and the Bible" or whatever.
I really cannot be sure anymore. It was red and notebook paper sized (I think).
It had been written as a Ph.D. or Doctor of Divinity or whatever dissertation by
a Catholic priest/seminary student/whatever. It was superb! He, of course, was
excommunicated because of it.

I have tried several times over the years through book search companies to find
this book, but to no avail. I even tried calling the Merridien Mississippi
library, but they could not help.

If you
1. know of this book
2. have any ideas how I might extend my search
3. or have any other clues,
would you please reply directly to me at
	degroot@dog.dseg.ti.com

I would be *most* appreciative.

Thank you,

Doug DeGroot
degroot@dog.dseg.ti.com
From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Levite Priest Gives Life for Sinners
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:43:27 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

Rob Strom writes:
>
>I'm unaware that Christians believed Jesus to have been a High Priest,
>or to have claimed to be a High Priest.  I am aware of the Christian
>belief that Jesus' death atones for the sins of people who believe
>in him.  There's no analogy between the Jesus story and this Torah passage.

I received private email from a reader who objected to my previous
observations on Jesus and the high priest.  After reading my comments he
scolded me for an apparent contradiction in my argument, i.e., 1) rightly
pointing out that the offender who fled to the city of refuge was not a
murder, but a manslaughter, therefore there was no sin to be atoned for,
but 2) wrongly concluding that Jesus is our High Priest.

My conclusion that Jesus is our High Priest is not based on that text
in Numbers, but rather on the NT statements regarding Messiah Jesus,
namely:

  For verily he [Jesus Christ] took not on him the nature of angels; but he 
  took on him the seed of Abraham.
  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren,
  that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining
  to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.  (Heb. 2:16,17)

  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the
  Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
  Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in
  all his house.  (Heb. 3:1,2)

  Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the
  heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling
  of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet
  without sin.  (Heb. 4:14,15)

I must admit that I have not looked at the implications of the city of refuge
passage in light of what the NT reveals about our High Priest, Jesus.  It
would make for an interesting study.  

I hope this clears thing up.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: drew@cs.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan)
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un
Organization: Computer Science Department, ANU, Australia
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 05:03:44 GMT

tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>KNOW all those other guys, from 'Barnabas,' to the authors of the Didache, to 
>Justin Martyr right up to, and including, Tom Albrecht, got it all wrong."

But Tom, you and Justin Martyr disagree about the Millenium:

   "If you have ever encountered any so-called Christians who do not admit
   this doctrine [of the Millenium], but dare to blaspheme the God of Abraham
   and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob by asserting that there is no
   resurrection of the dead, but that their souls are taken up to heaven at
   the very moment of their death, do not consider them to be real Christians. 
   [...] But I and every other completely orthodox Christian feel certain that
   their will be a resurrection of the flesh, followed by a thousand years in
   the rebuilt, embellished, and enlarged city of Jerusalem, as was announced
   by the prophets Ezechiel, Isaiah, and the others."

   (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 80)

Drew.
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:20:14 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0



To: Bill Carlson

 BC=>    Perhaps, from that aspect; one can make a point then...
 BC=>      RABBINIC: LUCHOTH HABBERITH (242a):  He (the Messiah) will 
 BC=>give
 BC=>      Himself and His life over unto death, and His blood will 
 BC=>atone
 BC=>      for His people.  SEBANIM (6a):  Surely atonement can only 
 BC=>be made
 BC=>      with the blood, as it says, 'For it is the blood that 
 BC=>maketh
 BC=>      atonement by reason of the life' -[Leviticus 17:11].  [See 
 BC=>also
 BC=>      Yoma (5a)] ...(and Hebrews 9:22; Ex.24:8; Jer.31:31; 
 BC=>Matt.20:28)

Agree, but we must always be willing to correct in humility.  that is what 
causes others to think we are pushovers for their slams against MJ's.  
However, we are the stronger to be able to give an answer to those who ask. 
Over the past 30 years, i guess i have answered the same questions well 
into the thousands of times. (grin) 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (Old) Question for Rob Levene
Date: 16 Aug 92 10:17:30 GMT
Organization: University of Turku

In article <9208121310.AA03960@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> Of course, sages frequently make drashos on verses.  Maimonides himself
> suggests that the prophecy in Daniel *does* refer to Jesus.
> 
> That is, Daniel 11:14.  (:-)

Thanks. Here's the basis of RMBM's 13 principles.

- Laura
--
Ki yeled yulad lanu ben niten lanu vat'hi hamisra al shichmo vayikra
shmo pele yoetz el gibbor avi ad sar shalom.   - Yeshaya 9:5

Achen chalayeinu Hu nasa umach'oveinu svalam va'anachnu chashavnuhu
nagua muke Elohim umeune. VeHu mecholal mip'shaeinu meduka meavonoteinu
musar shlomeinu alav uvachavurato nirpalanu. Kulanu ketzon tainu ish
ledarko paninu veHashem hifgia bo et avon kulanu. Nigas veHu na'ane
velo yiftach piv kase latevach yuval uch'rachel lifnei goz'zeiha ne'elama
velo yiftach piv.  - Yeshaya 53:4-7
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:14:10 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

> Hey Tom, again read my lips. (grin). it is your dishonesty that is 
> offensive, not your bad doctrine. (grin). 

 RA=>Yet another of Harvey Smith's baseless accusations.

come on Robert lighten up.  our grins are not meant as sneers but to let 
you know we are taking it light hearted.  That is common in bbsing.  Nu, 
whats your beef?

Tom is very dishonest in his approachment of Mj's.  I don't recall we have 
ever stated, "WE WON""  as you intimate.  That is just not part of the 
makeup of MJ's.  Seems you don't know us very well, but are willing to side 
with someone who is also falsely accusing what MJ's believe.

If you really want to know, you ought to attend an MJ congregation....

 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Missionizing to 2-year-olds
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:54:40 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#3074

Subject: Re: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
From: clmn@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Coleman)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 07:18:37 GMT

>[I remember Rob's message.  At this point there was a lengthy passage out-
>lining rather fantastic Christian theological claims, leading up to the "but"
>immediately below.  I'd like to know why Bruce edited this out.  Must have
>been too difficult to answer!]

Not difficult to answer, merely irrelevant.  I can believe the testimony of
the Bible; but that of Rob Strom is becoming increasingly suspect.

So tell me:  Do you actually believe God made a flood and killed everyone in
the world except a few He decided to rescue and herded into a big boat?  And
would you go so far as to say He turned the Nile to blood, and parted the
Red Sea, and appeared at Sinai with fire and thunder?  Do you really believe
in angels?  Do you believe one of them slew 185,000 men in one night?  Do
you believe some good Jewish boys were thrown into a roaring fire in a
blazing hot furnace and never even broke a sweat?  And you who doesn't
believe a virgin can give birth:  Do you actually believe a supernatural
being exists who created the first man out of available materials?  And
that a snake later tricked that man?

It's really sad to see how credulous some people can be relative to their
own beliefs.

>>>In any case, David will post his personal testimony, and
>>>you are free to challenge him directly.
>>
>>I won't believe him, either, if he says they told him that.
>>
>>>Of course, you have asserted that I am paranoid about
>>>the situation, and I think you need to justify your claim.
>>
>>I think it's evident.
> 
>A real open mind!

It's one thing to have an open mind, another to be naively gullible.

>>It would be interesting to hear your relatives' side of this.  I'll bet they'd
>>have a different story to tell.
> 
>I'll bet they would, too.  Only thing is, I've already read it half a zillion
>times in this newsgroup.

Where did you see them post anything?  All I've seen has been Rob posting his
characterization of them.  Did I miss something?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 16:30:58 -0400

Someone wrote:
>>> Shalom Bill, Since tom is totally anti semitic, and intellectually 
>>> dishonest, it is better not to even dialogue with him, but just
>>> correct his statements to others.

Tom responded:
>> Oh, come on now, Harvey.  You can do better than that.  Hiding 
>> behind the smokescreen of the "A" word won't help your cause.  Highly 

Harvey Smith wrote on 31 July:
> Hey Tom, again read my lips. (grin). it is your dishonesty that is 
> offensive, not your bad doctrine. (grin). 


Yet another of Harvey Smith's baseless accusations.

I have seen no evidence of Tom's dishonesty or Jew-hatred.  Although I
consider Tom's theology to be incorrect (and dangerous if
misinterpreted by the masses), he always supports his statements and
makes his affiliation clear.

With Tom, I can have an honest disagreement in which both sides
acknowledge that our first principles differ and both sides choose
public self-descriptions uniquely corresponding to these principles.

Harvey Smith and other UMJC types exhibit none of this integrity,
choosing instead to end posts with sneering <grins>, declaring
themselves winners of debates, using imprecise self-descriptions,
and insulting others with terms such as "churchianity" and "rabbinism."

Rob
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:04:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


    -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene to Bill Carlson <=-
 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Date: 16 Aug 92 04:39:28 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9208160439.AA25365@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RAL> 
 RAL> Bill Carlson writes:
 >     I resent that; and there you go again with your blanket labels.
 >     I've tried to discuss issues politely with you since I came on
 >     here.
 RAL> The "imprecise self-descriptions" charge applies as well to Mr.
 RAL> Carlson.  I don't recall him expressing the sneering arrogance
 RAL> of his peers; either he's playing the role of 'good cop' or
 RAL> that's just his personality.
     Maybe I'm just a nice guy cause HaShem changed me into a nicer
     guy though HaMashiach, ...you suppose :-)  I wasn't such a nice
     guy before I met Messiah.
 RAL> Anyway the posted information Bill Carlson provided, such as names of
 RAL> alleged Messianics[sic] throughout history, does not lend itself to
 RAL> discussion, rather to further research, which is currently taking
 RAL> place off-line.
     Now remember, I did not say they were ALL Messianic.  I said they
     were all Jewish, and Believers in Y'shua as Messiah.  Some did not
     lead a Messianic Judiac Observant lifestyle.  Although many/most
     did.  The list was of famous Jewish Believers, Messianic or not.
 RAL> How about you, Bill, do *you* have any comment on Prof. Hyam Maccoby's
 RAL> books?  He presents a more favorable portrait of Jesus than in any
 RAL> other book I've read, including the Christian scriptures themselves.
     What specificly would you like to discuss; or what point would
     you like to bring out about Maccoby's books?  Most folks on here
     don't have the time at a drop of a hat to go out and buy a book
     and read it.  But that shouldn't stop you from commenting on it
     if you'd like to start a new string.

... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210      
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:09:03 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

In article <LJMORLY.92Aug14113757@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>In article <9208132030.AA15591@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>> I have seen no evidence of Tom's dishonesty or Jew-hatred.
>
>Aw COME ON ! You YOURSELF talked about TA (along with Bill Hamilton) as
>being anti-semitic just a couple of weeks ago! (Sure someone has that on
>files; I don't.) With Bill it was totally unfounded, but TA... Remember
>his postings about "the days of vengeance" for Jews ?

I admit my system was offline for a short time and I might have missed some
messages, but I don't recall any charges of anti-Semitism from Mr. Levene
against Mr. Hamilton or me.

The anti-Semitism charge has come (exclusively?!) from the Messianic Jews,
and it seems to be entirely fueled by differences in theology, not in the
way I act or speak towards the Jewish readers of this newsgroup.  (Besides,
the "days of vengeance" quote originated with Jesus, not with me (please
see Luke 21:22).)

It's obvious that some of the Messianic Jews in this forum can't argue
their position from the Scriptures alone, so they use smokescreen tactics,
like labeling as anti-Semites other Christians who disagree with their
theology.

>>  Although I
>> consider Tom's theology to be incorrect (and dangerous if
>> misinterpreted by the masses), he always supports his statements and
>> makes his affiliation clear.
>
>YEAH, sure... (:-()

Note the disingenuous response of one of the MJ sympathizers.  Mr. Levene has
correctly noted this tactic in another message.

>
>> With Tom, I can have an honest disagreement in which both sides
>> acknowledge that our first principles differ and both sides choose
>> public self-descriptions uniquely corresponding to these principles.
>
>With Tom we have the problem that he thinks that the *Rabbinic* Judaism
>is the biblical and original form of Judaism. Right Tom ?

Wrong, Laura.  Biblical Judaism is Christianity.  I've made that clear in
other  messages.  The Church is the New Israel.  Messianic Judasim is one
sect within that New Israel, along with biblical Methodists, Baptists,
Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, AOGers, etc., etc., etc.  Jews and Gentiles
united in Christ make up the commonwealth of Israel under the new covenant.
Within the new Israel there are also many "nations;" Jews, Italians,
English, Mexicans, Chinese, etc., etc., etc.

But we call ourselves Christians so as not to be religiously confused with
Jews who have rejected Messiah Jesus.  This is both biblically and practically
correct.

Obviously you know that I believe this, since it is the BASIS of your change
of anti-Semitism against me.  Let's not try to muddy the waters.

>Tom, don't let yourself be fooled by R.L.!

Don't worry about me, hon.  I can handle myself. :-)

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:47:10 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


To: Tom Albrecht.

 TA=>The anti-Semitism charge has come (exclusively?!) from the 
 TA=>Messianic Jews,
 TA=>and it seems to be entirely fueled by differences in theology, 

Just not true Tom as we relate to many different theologies as i have 
pointed out to you before.  It is your dishonesty like the above, to ignore, 
your untruths and innuendos against MJ's and what we believe and about our 
organization.

 TA=>the "days of vengeance" quote originated with Jesus, not with me 
 TA=>(please
 TA=>see Luke 21:22).)

But it was your application that was anti semitic.  And the fact that you 
stated over and over, that Jews have no rights to the Holy Land unless they 
experience christian conversion first, your reconstructionist view which is 
antithetical to scripture.. ie Ezek 36,37, points to them being gathered 
first back to their land and conversion not to Christianity but to Messiah 
second..

 TA=>It's obvious that some of the Messianic Jews in this forum can't 
 TA=>argue
 TA=>their position from the Scriptures alone, so they use smokescreen 
 TA=>tactics,

Te He, i am rolling in the aisles.  It was you Tom that threw out all kinds 
of wild accusations against what we believe and our organization and when 
proven wrong, no not even a slight apology nor any type of dialogue on these 
points...that you are sooo wrong in.

 TA=>like labeling as anti-Semites other Christians who disagree with 
 TA=>their
 TA=>theology.

Nope, i don't believe you even know our theology, thats why you fish and 
make up statements and then believe them.  Its like the person who started a 
rumour, and passed it on, it passed on to 10 people.  The eleventh person 
told the originator about the rumour and then the original perpetrator 
believed his own lie...(grin)
 


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From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Er,Excuse Me
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:32:04 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 -=> Quoting Hillel.e.markowitz to All <=-
 Hi> From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
 Hi> Date: 11 Aug 92 16:59:22 GMT
 Hi> Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
 Hi> Message-ID: <1992Aug11.165922.17992@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
 Hi> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 Hi> 
 Hi> The secular definition is that even someone born Jewish who
 Hi> converts is not treated as Jewish under the Law of Return.  Thus
 Hi> someone who converted to xianity can no longer claim that right
 Hi> other than as the non-Jewish relative of a Jew.  Halachically, such
 Hi> a person is Jewish but is not treated as Jewish for testimony,
 Hi> aliyas, etc.
     Anyone with one Jewish grandparent can make Aliyah; and live in
     Israel; but..., if one is a "Believer", they can not {at this
     time :-) have citizenship; tax-free, etc....   Only residency.

... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210  
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