HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcconnel@mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:17:26 GMT

In article <1h2b84INN9qn@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, winkler@zrzsp12 (Barbara Maren 
Winkler) writes:
>   Is the ME world, as it is, "good", and Eowyn just "bad" ("isolationist")
> as she does not accept her role? Tolkien, with the course of the
> narrative, suggests it. I don't agree (still). I think her change of
> mind is a compliance with certain gender assumptions Tolkien had in mind,
> and it isn't even psychologically convincing. I heretically fear Eowyn
> might have made a very bad housewife.
 
  Where does Tolkien suggest that Eowyn would--or even should--make a good house-
wife.  She is going to be Lord Faramir's wife, but that in no way says that she
is going to be a twentieth century housewife (this is how I'm assuming you're 
using the term).  She is going to help Faramir in his goal of restoring Ithilian
to it's former beauty.  I take it from this that she is going to have many respon-
sibilities that go beyond home making, if we can look at Galardrial as any sort of
example of a strong but nurturing woman.

>                                                       The way woman/home
> is portrayed, as well as the fact that they somehow, unquestionably, belong
> together, has its roots mostly in the late 18th and 19th century, and less in the
> (many) earlier forms of the sexual division of labor.

If this concept of the domestic woman is so closely tied to the modern era, how
well can it be applied to a story based in a Medieval era, written by an author
who was consciously placing it in that Medieval time.  Wouldn't it then be more
appropriate to look at Medieval portrayals of women and see how Eowyn fits into
that cannon.  How does she rank with, for example, Waeltheow in Beowulf or 
Brynhylde.  

Pardon me if I misinterpret, but you seem to be saying "I certainly wouldn't want
to be a standard, middle class, suburban housewife, so I can't see how Eowyn could
marry Faramir this way.  I just don't see how the two compare.

Mike McConnell
Dept of Mathematics
Kent State University
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mcconnel@mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell)
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 22:35:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan1.064511.27715@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu (Sting) writes:
|> In <92366.102452IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> ROB <IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
|> 
|> >  This past weekend a friend and I had an argument over whether or not
|> >Tolkien's Eldar had pointed ears or not
|> 
|> 
|> I have noticed that in Tolkien's glossary of the elven language (which occurs
|> in the Silmarillion, as well as various further works by other authors), the
|> words for "ear" and "leaf" are closely related in Elven, which would suggest
|> that they probably had something of a leaf-shaped ear.
|> 
|> -Sting
|> 
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Michael J. Fromberger                                  Dartmouth College
|> Composer, Guitarist, Mediaevalist                            Hanover, NH
|> email : Sting@Dartmouth.EDU / mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu
|> USPS  : #3B School St. / Hanover, NH  03755
|>  all requests granted - all grants requested!
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

But just what leaf shape are you talking about?  After all, a begonia has a rather
round leaf.  Or perhaps the elves have ears shaped like maple leaves ;-).

Mike McConnell
Dept of Mathematics
Kent State University
From: nightsng@anarky.tch.org (Nightsong)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Keywords: Ents, trees, dwarves, Silmarillion
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 01:43:13 PST
Organization: The Canned Ham, San Jose, CA.

> You are incorrect in assuming that Ents are trees.  They were no more
> trees than dwarves were rocks.  This is outlined in the Silmarillion
> where it states that Aule made the dwarves, and Yavanna made the
> "shepherds of the trees", and proclaimed that they would never get along.

Well actually, as I remember, the term used was "tree-herders" at least 
in The Lord of the Rings trilogy somewhere.

-Nightsong
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Only Good Orc is a Dead Orc
Date: 21 Dec 92 10:33:38 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

dwight@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dwight Robert Stone) writes:

>There is no redemption, no salvation, no reformation for orcs.

There is a place in Letters, were Tolkien says something
like this:

Orcs are inherently evil. I almost wrote irredemably evil,
but nothing is iredemable.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find this. I will
try again.

klaus O K
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Tuesday, 22 Dec 1992 12:15:07 EST
From: Kevin Foss <IO20816@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Disney & the movie
 <1h4lndINN9s5@mirror.digex.com> <suwandi.724960593@sfu.ca>
 <1h7dtaINNot1@uwm.edu>

In article <1h7dtaINNot1@uwm.edu>, paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson)
says:
>
>In article <suwandi.724960593@sfu.ca> suwandi@fraser.sfu.ca (Julian Suwandi)
>writes:
>>
>>It'll be cool if Disney is to do a LoTR movie.. With the musical elves, the
>If I remember correctly, Disney *had* the rights to do _LotR_ while Tolkien
>was still alive.  They bailed out.  JRRT was not unhappy about this.  While
>he would have liked the $$$ the movie would have generated, and was willing
>to bend a fair amount (like axing Bombadil) to get those $$$, in the end he
>didn't much like the Disney "style" of doing things.

The quote from Tolkien as to who should do the illustrations for _The Hobbit_,
(original release) was "to veto anything from or influenced by the Disney
studios (for all whose works I hae a heartfelt loathing)" {as quoted in
_The Annotated Hobbit_, p.2}.    So I would call it doubtful that Disney would
have given any rights to Disney later, nor would his family, respecting his
opinions.   Albeit, the rights being given to Ranking&Bass surely couldn't have
been worse than a Disney effort(!?).   But you may be right, that at a later
time, Disney acquired the rights, but didn't act, I haven't read _Letters_ to
know one way or the other.
-Kevin
--
  Kevin A. Foss        EMail:1)  io20816@maine.maine.edu
                             2)  kevin_foss@macact.umeres.maine.edu
--
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: The necromancer in The Hobbit
Keywords: hobbit, necromancer
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:42:38 GMT

maze@diku.dk (Mads Haahr) writes:
>I recall that when Gandalf left Bilbo and the dwarves on their way to
>Smaug, it was to drive away a necromancer from the southern part of
>Mirkwood.
>I was wondering if this character might be an early appearance of Sauron
>or one of his minions.

Gandalf, in The Hobbit, says he went to spy on the Necromancer of Dol
Guldur (southwest of Mirkwood, I believe, south of Beorn's Cabin).

Gandalf, in LoTR, at the Council of Elrond, states that afterwards the White
Council went to clear out the Necromancer, who turned out to be Sauron.  They
had thought one of the Nazgul was making a base there, but they were wrong (or
partially wrong -- a Nazgul could've been using it as a base, preparing it for
Sauron).

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Moria....in later years
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 10:11:48 GMT

In <wjm2j+_@rpi.edu> woodam@aix.rpi.edu (Matthew G. Woodard) writes:

>What happened to Moria in the fourth age?

>Did the dwarves ever return to retake their ancestral home?  It is clear
>that they would not return until the Balrog was destroyed, yet once it was
>did they try again?

Well the West-Gate is buried and the East-Gate only leads to a broken
bridge.  But I suppose the Dwarves would be able to deal with these
problems.  Assuming there are no other ways in or out, I'd set a guard
for as long as it takes for all the Orcs and Trolls to starve
(assuming they are eating one another in such a way as to maximize the
time until the last one starves).
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire hall		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very narrow hamantasch.
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ nysernet.org is not hungry at all.
From: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Shire Reckoning software
Date: 4 Jan 93 00:58:15 GMT
Distribution: na,uk,oz,nz
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, DC

In article <4137@randvax.rand.org> jim@rand.org (Jim Gillogly) writes:

>I modified JRRT's description of it slightly, though.  He indicates that
>our New Year's Day corresponds more or less to the Shire's 8 Jan (meaning
>8 Afteryule, of course), but he also says that Yule and Midyear's Day
>should correspond to the solstices; at 8 Afteryule, Midyear's Day ends up
>on our 24 Jun, which is annoyingly distant from the solstice.  I decided
>unilaterally that some latterday hobbit reformer will have put it back in
>order by now by adding in almost a year of Lithe and Yule days over a
>decade or so (or leaving out two Overlithes over eight years, which seems
>less likely, knowing hobbits), and moved our New Year's Day to 10 Afteryule.
>This isn't totally unjustified, since JRRT says he's unskilled in these
>matters and may well have made some conversion errors.  This does reasonable
>things to the Lithe and Yule solstices both in leap and normal years.

  It sounds as if JRRT wasn't quite right on the conversions.  Since
he _did_ pin down one of the Yule days to our 21 December and Shire
Midyear's to our 21 June, your algorithm is consistent with JRRT
(though he apparently wasn't quite internally consistent, so it isn't
"perfect" in some abstract sense that I find irrelevant :-).

>I wrote a perl program that does it also... and produces my .signature
>through a named pipe.  Guess I had too much time on my hands this Yule.

  I would be interested in a copy of the Perl script or C source or
whatever.  You might consider offering it/them to comp.sources.misc or
posting directly to alt.sources or something. 

(Do we have a Middle Earth anonymous ftp archive just yet ?).

Ran
atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer? (was: Origin of Orcs) and other musings
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:53:01 GMT

Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn) writes:
> This example also shows how much more of a powerful force
>Melkor was than Sauron (and a better scientist, too;-)).  When Melkor
>was exiled from Middle Earth, his 'creations' didn't become mindless
>like Sauron's hybrid's...this, of course, is assuming Melkor didn't
>have some sort of control over his minions from the void (I certainly
>haven't read anywhere that this was possible).

Sauron was pretty much killed after the War of the Ring.  Not only was he
banished, but so diminished in power all he could do was sulk.  He had no
power over anything anymore.  Melkor however, was banished, I believe, not
diminished (or was he?).  Thus, he still had power in Middle-Earth, and the
Dark Races still remembered and worshippped him as his evil lingered on.  If
Sauron had still been powerful after the Ring had been destroyed, I'm sure
that many of his forces would still have survived after the War of the Ring.
But as it was, basically everything he did was unmade and so not only was he
powerless, all the stuff he did in Middle-Earth was basically undone.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: kwadswor@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Kevin K Wadsworth)
Subject: Tom Bombadil again
Keywords: Bombadil
     Hi.  I'm an old Tolkien fan, but am new to this newsgroup and recently 
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 06:25:06 GMT

"Tom Bombadil - Maia master of Old Forest.  Tom Bombadil was the Hobbit name 
for the powerful and eccentric master of the Old Forest.  Called Iarwain 
Ben-adar, which means both 'old' and 'without father' by the Elves, he was 
probably a Maia spirit that came to Middle-earth in the Ages of Starlight.  By 
the Dwarves he was called Forn, while men knew him as Orald.  He was a very 
strange and merry spirit.  He was a short, stout Man, with blue eyes, a red 
face and a brown beard.  He wore a blue coat, a tall battered hat with a blue 
feather, and yellow boots.  Always singing or speaking in rhymes, he seemed a 
nonsensical being, yet within the Old Forest his power was absolute, and no 
evil was strong enough to touch him.  His spouse was Goldberry the 
River-daughter.  Tom Bombadil played arole inthe Quest of the Ring by twice 
rescuing the Hobbits who carried the Ring: first from Old Man Willow in the Old
Forest, and later from the Barrow Wights in the Barrow Downs."

References for this passage are LR I Ch. 6,8; LR II Ch. 6 and 
_The_Adventures_of_Tom_Bombadil_ poems 1 & 2

Goldberry is also described as being a possible Maia.

     -Kevin
From: ssw@aber.ac.uk (Simon Ward)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: The alt.fan.tolkien FAQ
Date: 1 Jan 93 16:27:23 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

With a bit of luck, I should be able to post the preliminary version of the FAQ
at the beginning of February (work committments prevent me doing it before then,
unfortunately).

I *think* I've covered a lot of what could be construed as Frequently Asked
Questions. Basically, the questions answered are :

-	How do I join the Tolkien Society?
-	What journals/newsletters/whatever deal with the discussion of Tolkien's
	work?
-	Where can I get Elvish fonts for <whatever>?

Also, I'm trying to piece together a coherent answer for the Bombadil question
(with the aid of all the articles posted to a.f.t except the first 150 or so
:-) ). Other answers deal with the Istari, the nature of orcs and trolls,
Glorfindel (both of 'em :-) ) as well as the booklist. 

Has anyone got any more suggestions? If so, I'd be grateful if you'd send me
them (complete with a shortish `answer' since I don't have much time to go
hunting through the entire works of Tolkien at the moment :-) )

Apologies for taking so long over this, reality has a tendency to get in the
way at times (plus, even I'm entitled to a Christmas break :-) )

Thanks,

Simon.

Simon Ward,                                  +--------------------------+
Shock and Detonation Physics Research Group, | EMAIL: ssw@aber.ac.uk    |
University of Wales,                         | VOICE: (44)(0)970 622824 |
Aberystwyth, Dyfed, UK.                      +--------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 01:52:14 GMT

In article <MVOORHIS.92Dec31113246@granite.WPI.EDU>, mvoorhis@granite (Michael C Voorhis) writes:
>
>> Well done, Micheal. I agree in part with this last. Illuvatar could have
>> sent a persona to Middle-earth to `get the lay of the land', but I think it
>> not very likely. What I DO think is that Manw:e could have done it.
>> Remember that the Valar were very reluctant to interfere with Middle-earth,
>> and only did so when ruin was imminent (Melkor, for example).
>
>Why would Eru have to send anyone to Middle earth to `get the lay of the
>land'?  Everything that ever happened there was as a result of Eru's
>thought... He knew what would be happening, when, where, how, who,
>etcetera.

No.  Tolkien was a believer in free will.  In his conception, Iluvatar/Eru
created the world, including the discords woven by Melkor, *and turned it
loose*.  He did *not* keep moment to moment control--to do so would make its
inhabitants no less puppets than Aule's creations.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:33:24 GMT

In article <1hstthINNclo@hpsdlss3.sdd.hp.com> (Christopher J. Amow) writes:
>In article <lewchuk.725051295@therien>, lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael
>Lewchuk) wrote:
>> 
>> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>> >	All living things were divided in that day, and some of every
>> >	kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save 
>> >	the Elves only.
>> >Does this mean that there were orcs and trolls fighting for Gil-Galad
>> >and Elendil in the last alliance?
>>
>> It is hard to imagine orcs fighting for the West, although I guess it
>> could be so that an orc was treacherous enough to fight against Sauron.
>
>Since orcs were derivatives of the elves, it kind of seems to me that that
>qualifies for two of the "same kind"

Nope nope nope. The quote (right up above, son! Read yer quoted
material!) says that Elves were not divided; they were the only
ones who did not fight for Sauron. Ergo and ipso facto Orcs are
not being lumped in with Elves.

The Orcs etc. aren't a problem, IMHO. Orcs are treacherous enough
to start with; the Quest would've failed if it hadn't been for
the Orcish treachery in Cirith Ungol. Besides which, many Orcs,
trolls, etc. might have decided that they were better off in
their own caves then they would be as Sauron's pawns in the
Darkness. (And I, for one, wouldn't blame them.) They might not
have actually joined the Alliance-- I can't see them taking
orders from Gil-Galad or Elendil-- but I can easily see groups of
Orcs deliberately attacking Sauron's troops, which might make
them qualify as part of the "host".

To my mind, the bigger problem is the implication that some Ents
fought for Sauron.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Is "Lord of the Rings" on-line somewhere?
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 18:48:58 GMT

In <1h7ek9INNouo@uwm.edu> paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:

>So...  The original _LotR_ is still uncovered by copyright protection.  If
>someone were very brave, very studious, etc., s/he could transcribe the
>original version.  It's only about 100,000 words long.

While it has not been resolved what happens to Maiar whose bodies are
killed, I don't see any reason to imagine that Sauruman might have
gotten an account on the net.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very crowned apple.
 |warren@      But the weeder
/ nysernet.org is concerned.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: follick@jemez.eece.unm.edu (Jeremy Follick)
Subject: Re: Death of a Maia
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 07:45:10 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1hnb7bINN2lv@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>Just to complicate the whole "What happens to Maia on death" question,
>I always thought that Sauron's original physical form was killed in
>the fall of Numenor.  He seems to have gotten himself another physical
>form (though, from all accounts, a rather hideous one lacking in the
>shape-change powers that he had originally had).

Old Maiar don't die, they just fade away.

--
*Jeremy Follick                                   follick@chama.eece.unm.edu
*
*         It is a sad fact that, while it takes two to make peace,
*                   it only takes one to make war.








Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:30:09 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

>dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>
>[some stuff in ref to Similarion]
>>	All living things were divided in that day, and some of every
>>	kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save 
>>	the Elves only.
>
>>Does this mean that there were orcs and trolls fighting for Gil-Galad
>>and Elendil in the last alliance?  Ents fighting on both sides?  Or
>>am I reading too much into this passage?

I think you are reading too much into it.  However, given Orcs general
unruliness it wouldn't surprise me to find out that some of them fought
against Sauron if not actually for the alliance.  Especially near the
end when things turned against them.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: New Tolkien calendar
Date: 24 Dec 1992 17:16:07 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <BzrDMp.3GE@sus.edu.eur.nl> cspas164@sus.edu.eur.nl (R.M. Hutjes) writes:
>Are there more Tolkien Calenders ?
>Rob Hutjes.

Well, there have been calenders for every year for many years.  I had lost
touch with them since around 77 or 78, back when I was in my Tolkien-obsessed
period.  Back then the Hildebrandt brothers did them for about three
years running.  Pretty good, overall.  More of a heroic style than the
93 calenders.  One problem I had with them is that the orcs looked more
like debased pigs then debased elves.
From: (Christopher J. Amow)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Date: 30 Dec 1992 19:39:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdr170.sdd.hp.com

In article <lewchuk.725051295@therien>, lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael
Lewchuk) wrote:
> 
> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
> >	All living things were divided in that day, and some of every
> >	kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save 
> >	the Elves only.
> >Does this mean that there were orcs and trolls fighting for Gil-Galad
> >and Elendil in the last alliance?> It is hard to imagine orcs fighting for the West, although I guess it
> could be so that an orc was treacherous enough to fight against Sauron.
> 
> 					Michael Lewchuk
> 					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA

Since orcs were derivatives of the elves, it kind of seems to me that that
qualifies for two of the "same kind"

"!@#$%^&*!@#$%^%^$^$#@@!@#%$#$#@$!#@!#@!#$@%$#$#@#$%$^%$^$@#"
Christopher J. Amow       (oh, and in case I forgot
chris@sdd.hp.com                          :-)   :-)   :-)          )
...........................................Sometimes it seems like I never
finish anything I star
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Death of a Maia
Date: 28 Dec 1992 16:49:47 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

Just to complicate the whole "What happens to Maia on death" question,
I always thought that Sauron's original physical form was killed in
the fall of Numenor.  He seems to have gotten himself another physical
form (though, from all accounts, a rather hideous one lacking in the
shape-change powers that he had originally had).
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien