From: rogue@cellar.org (Rachel McGregor)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,alt.sex
Subject: Re: Choice for men: moving beyond anti-feminism
Date: 30 Sep 92 05:38:57 GMT
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system

gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:

> In article <3ZmRRB7w164w@cellar.org> rogue@cellar.org
> (Rachel McGregor) writes:
> >Intrauterine devices are often uncomfortable, sometimes painful, and carry
> >not only a greater health risk (witness the number of women killed or
> >maimed by toxic shock syndrom brought on by the Dalkon Shield) but a 
> >lower rate of prevention than condoms.  
> 
> What are you excuses with respect to the:
> 1) Contraceptive foam (98% effective).
> 2) Diaphragm (97% effective).
> 3) Carvical cap.
> 4) Sponge.
>
Diaphragms ARE intrauterine devices, and your cited prevention rates are too
high.  Foam used with no barier method is far from sufficient.  Sponges,
diaphragms, and caps are used in conjunction with spermicidal foams and
lubricants.  Actually, the best combination to use (according to one of my
doctors) is a condom with foam.  

What are your excuses for not using condoms?  (Assuming you have some, since
you assumed I was looking for excuses against female contraceptives.)

> Why don't you read talk.abortion sometimes?
> 
Too many screeds on both sides, and too much to try to keep up with.

> There are quite a few men there who explain the emotional pain of
> men because of an abortion.  They have a similar mind set to the
> anti-choice-for-men feminists - both groups believe that in order
> to prevent their emotional pain they should have the right to
> destroy their sexual partners' lives.
> 
I know what a father can go through when he's involved in an unwanted
pregnancy.  It's a very difficult and emotionally volatile situation.  But
the final outcome affects the mother most strongly - the final decision
must be hers as well.

In any mature and loving relationship, both partners will and should be
involved in the process.

> If there is an agreement between the man and the woman about 
> abortion then he should pay at least a half, in my opinion.
> 
I agree.  But it doesn't always happen that way.  Especially if the
relationship was short-lived or the fetus was conceived shortly before a
breakup.

> Yes.  I still wonder why women who choose an abortion don't do 
> that *early*, so vacuum methods can be used.
> 
Possibly because it can take a month an a half for her to learn she's
pregnant, and then months more talking between her and her partner before
they decide an abortion would be the best course to take.  That's in the
best of cases.  Other times, she may need the time to save up the money,
or doesn't have local access to an abortion center.  And there are still
some hospitals that *only* do D&C's.

> The *inside* of a condom should stay in its place to work;
> try to remember that.
> 
It should stay intact and leakproof.  But except at the base, they often
move around a little.

> Are not you the same one who explained why playing with
> *women's* hormones system is bad?
> 
I explained why some women couldn't take the pill.

> >Whether you call it sexist or not, the
> >pharmaceutical companies are working harder to get it 'just right' for men
> >than they ever did for women.
> 
> Last month feminists blamed the pharmaceutical companies for not
> working hard enough on a male pill and called them sexist; now 
> you give the opposite claim.  Can't you keep your story straight?
> 
I wasn't one of those complaining last month.  And my complaint wasn't that
they were working on a male contraceptive but that the pharmaceutical
companies released and promoted so many botched products to women while
seemingly using all the care and QC that should have kept those drugs off 
the market only when it comes to men.


           
    Rachel McGregor (rogue@cellar.org)  research contractor, modem junkie
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