HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.biosph-l
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 07:36:44 EDT
Reply-To:     BRACHAR@SUVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
From:         BRACHAR@SUVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
X-To:         BIOSPH-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

Re:        capitalism and the environment,
           David Treston's question

Suggested reference:
Hall, C.A.S., C.J. Cleveland and R. Kaufman. 1986.
    Energy and Resource Quality. The ecology of the
    economic process. John Wiley & Sons. New York.
overall topics covered:
energy and economics
characteristics and magnitude of U.S. energy resource systems
environmental and human health impacts of energy extraction and use
energy and the management of renewable natural resources

Anthony R. Brach
BRACHAR@SUVM.BITNET
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.biosph-l
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 09:12:09 EDT
Reply-To:     treston@AMETHYST.BUCKNELL.EDU
From:         treston@AMETHYST.BUCKNELL.EDU
Subject:      Women, Men and the environment, ecofeminism
X-To:         biosph-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

Dear members of the network,
I would appreciate any material on the issues of ecofeminism, this is in
relation to research that i am conduction concerning power-structures in
society.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: BIOSPH-L@UBVM.BITNET
X-VMS-To: BIOSPH
X-VMS-Cc: WHITLOCK
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.biosph-l
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 11:23:00 EDT
Reply-To:     Jeremy Whitlock <WHITLOCK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
From:         Jeremy Whitlock <WHITLOCK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ceaucescu?

Marianne Dugan writes:

  > Isn't necessity the mother of invention?  Isn't that more than an
  > empty cliche?  If I want to take a shower and I also want to do
  > my laundry, I know that (given my old home's quirky plumbing) I
  > must wait a bit between each function, or -- not enough water.

If your washer or toilet didn't work because the water pressure was too low,
you wouldn't waste much time asking your civic leaders to install another
water tower or bigger pumps.  If this were a continuing problem, you'd
probably consider moving to a different municipality.

The same thing happens to factories who have to shut down on hot or cold
days because there isn't enough electricity to run their machines.

I agree that drastic measures like reducing supply voltage could have a
positive impact on raising public awareness about supply problems, etc.,
but I still don't agree that we should let it happen  -- just as we
shouldn't let blackouts, frequency shifts, or any other disruption happen.
Electricity is not a luxury; it's a means of economic life.  The more stable a
region's electricity supply is, the more stable its economy is.

Conservation is necessary, but it must be pursued in other ways.  The fact
that this is very difficult, and hence very expensive, is exactly what I've
been saying on this list for a long time now.  You can't compute the cost of
conservation just by adding up the cost of, for example, replacment
energy-efficient bulbs.  You must also add in the cost of the campaign to
convince the user to buy those bulbs.  This is what Ontario Hydro has done
with its 25-year plan, in which they plan to conserve about 9000 MW by 2014,
and this is why this part of the plan is the most expensive.

When I see them making new plans to reduce supply voltage, I am not suprised,
but very disappointed.

Jeremy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremy Whitlock                        e-mail:  WHITLOCK@MCMASTER.CA
Dept. of Engineering Physics
McMaster University                    phone: (416) 525-9140 ext.7140
Hamilton, Ont.
CANADA   L8S 4L8
                   "My thoughts are mine, not Mac's"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.biosph-l
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:36:37 MSK
Reply-To:     OMB@CACR.FREE
From:         OMB@CACR.FREE
Subject:      E-MAIL TO RUSSIA

I AM FORWARDING THE MESSAGE I'V GOT RECENTLY HERE IN FREE NET.
REGARDS,
       OLGA
-----------------------------------------------------------
DEAR NETWORKERS,

IT IS 7 MONTHS SINCE TWO NON-COMMERCIAL NETWORKS STARTED
THEIR OPERATIONS IN RUSSIA.  THEY ARE SUEARN (PART OF
EARN/BITNET) USING NJE PROTOCOL AND FREE (FOR RESEARCH
ENGINEERING AND EDUCATION) USING TCP/IP. FREE NETWORK
HAS E-MAIL GATEWAY WITH EARN. BELOW IS A LIST (NOT
COMPLETE) OF THE INSTITUTIONS USING THESE NETWORKS
AND ACCESSIBLE VIA E-MAIL.

_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

 1. N.D.ZELINSKY INSTITUTE OF ORGANIC CHEMISTRY
 2. CENTRAL INSTITUTE OF ECONOMICS AND MATHEMATICS
 3. INSTITUTE OF CRYSTALLOGRAPHY
 4. YAROSLAVL REGIONAL EARN CENTER
 5. YAROSLAVL STATE UNIVERSITY
 6. MOSCOW POWER ENGINEERING INSTITUTE
 7. CHERNOGOLVKA SCIENTIFIC CENTRE OF RUSSIAN ACADEMY
 8. N.A.NESMEYANOV INSTITUTE OF ORGANO-ELEMENT COMPOUNDS
 9. V.A.ENGELHARDT INSTITUTE OF MOLECULAR BIOLOGY
 10.MOSCOW STATE UNIVERSITY
 11.L.D.LANDAU INSTITUTE OF THEORETICAL PHYSICS.
 12.INSTITUTE OF FORECASTING THEORY
 13.INSTITUTE OF ASTRONOMY
 14.KARPOV INSTITUTE OF PHYSICAL CHEMISTRY
 15.INSTITUTE OF NUCLEAR RESEARCHES
 16.INTERNATIONAL VEGA LAB
 17.MOSCOW IREX OFFICE
 18.INSTITUTE OF SYSTEM RESEARCHES (VNIISI)
 19.THERMOCENTER OF RUSSIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCES
 20.INSTITUTE OF EUROPE
 21.INDEPENDENT COMPUTER SCIENCE RESEARCHER GROUP
 22.NUCLEAR PHYSICS DEPARTMENT OF RUSSIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCES
 23.INSTITUTE OF SOCIAL AND POLITIC RESEARCH
 24.MOSCOW INSTITUTE OF AVIATION (EDUCATIONAL)
 25.INSTITUTE OF BALKAN AND SLAVIC STADIES
 26.LOMONOSOV SCHOOL
 27.RUSSIAN SCIENCE FOUNDATION
 30.ZAOKSKY TEOLOGYCAL SEMINARY
 31.INFORMATION AND PUBLISHING SECTOR (RUSSIAN ACADEMY)
 32.SKLIFOSOVSKY EMERGENCY RESEARCH INSTITUTE
 32.INNOVATION AGENCY "KONTOUR"
 33.SPAN ASSOCIATION
 34.MENDELEEV SOCIETY
 35.ROYAL SOCIETY, MENDELEEV COMMUNICATION (EDITORS OFFICE)
 36.MOSCOW HUMAN GENOME CENTER
 37.INSTITUTE OF OIL CHEMISTRY SYNTHESIS
 38.INSTITUTE OF ELECTROCHEMISTRY
 40.INSTITUTE OF CHEMICAL PHYSICS
 41.AZERBAIJAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCES
 42.INSTITUTE OF GENERAL GENETIC
 45.YAROSLAVL PEDAGOGICAL INSTITUTE
 46.INFORMATION AND RESEARCH CENTER "ECOLOGY"
 46."WE ANSWER" INNOVATION AGENCY
 47.VERNADSKY INSTITUTE OF GEOCHEMISTRY AND ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY
 48.CENTER OF MOLECULAR DIOGNOSTIC
 49.DEPARTMENT OF GENERAL AND TECHNICAL CHEMISTRY (RUSSIAN ACADEMY)
__________________________________________________________________
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.biosph-l
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:45:09 EDT
Reply-To:     Robert Kirkman <RKIRKMAN@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
From:         Robert Kirkman <RKIRKMAN@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Capitalism/Communism/Humanism

One more comment on this cluster of issues.  I finally finished Ehrenfeld's
book, The Arrogance of Humanism.  One of the more interesting conclusions
of the book is that capitalism and communism are essentially the same thing,
as far as the environment goes.  Both are predicated on the idea of the
absolute ascendancy of human reason and productivity WITHOUT LIMITS.  The
only difference in practice is that a different class is in charge of
the machinery of state.  The basic elements of organization, control, and
the inability or unwillingness to recognize the limits of resources or of
our own capabilities are all in place.
     Again, I highly recommend Ehrenfeld's book.
     To move to any possible future "utopia", we must first counter those
elements of the current relgion of humanism which contribute to our arrogance.
In other words, we must begin to recognize our own limits, the finitude of
the resources on which we rely, and the possibilities of other kinds of value
beyond the stark reductionism of "efficiency" or "profit".   A rebirth of
community, a new understanding of the meaning of our emotional selves, a
willingness to give up the dream of control.  We cannot control everything,
and our attempts to do so usually have disastrous consequences.  (Ehrenfeld
states it in terms of quasi-solutions which generate whole new sets of
residual problems.)
     Will we be able to give up the dream, this lust for power that is
consuming us?  Maybe not.  Maybe it will have to be taken from us.  Ehrenfeld
draws an example from Tolkein.  Frodo stands at the Crack of Doom, ready to
destroy the ring of power, but he is unable to do so.  The dream of power
has seized him, and he decides to keep the ring for himself.  It is only
because Gollum steals the ring from him that he is freed from its power (and
then only with long-lasting after-effects), and the ring is destroyed.
     Ehrenfeld points out, in a speculative mood, that Gollum is suspiciously
similare to "golem", a term for an automaton.  Could it be that our own
machines will wrest the dream of power from us even as the destroy themselves?
Then, of course, it is a question of how much we will lose in the process-  may
we be as fortunate as that intrepid hobbit, and lose only a finger!

Robert Kirkman, Department of Philosophy, SUNY at Stony Brook
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.biosph-l
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 09:09:23 EDT
Reply-To:     treston@AMETHYST.BUCKNELL.EDU
From:         treston@AMETHYST.BUCKNELL.EDU
Subject:      Desertification and attempts to stop it in Israel
X-To:         biosph-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

        To all members of the network, I am currently interested in some
environmental material concerning attemts to stop desertification and
irrigation of arid land (including with the usage of saline water), in
Israel.
Thank you, David Treston.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.biosph-l
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 09:04:38 EDT
Reply-To:     treston@AMETHYST.BUCKNELL.EDU
From:         treston@AMETHYST.BUCKNELL.EDU
Subject:      capitalism and the environment
X-To:         biosph-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

To all network recipients,
I am currently working on a project in which I would like to "prove" a
negative correlation between the precepts of capitalism and a "good"
environment.
	My main contention is that capitalism, by definition, cannot be beneficial
to the environment. This is due mainly to the premise that the earth's
resources are finite and that capitalism can only survive and perpetuate in
a system that allows for continual growth and extraction of resources.
	I would be very pleased if you could provide me with some theoretical
'tips' concerning this nexus between capitalism and environmental
degradation.
	Furthermore, if any of you might have some ideas concerning the negative
relation between the concept of social hierarchy and a "good" environment,
I would be very pleased.
			Sincerely, David Treston.
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 11:14:44 JST
From:         KAERI Kim YongChe <yckim@SORAK.KAIST.AC.KR>
Subject:      Re: Slang, fluencey and translation
X-To:         deaf-l%siucvmb.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu

Randy Gentry -

Now that the signature problem has been cleared, I think, I may say this.
The incidence gave me real confusion and then a big laughter.
Imagine a boxer doing one-man-show!

Yong Che Kim <yckim@sorak.kaist.ac.kr>
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X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.1c R5.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:11:46 EDT
From:         MND@VETMED1.VETMED.UFL.EDU
Subject:      Re: new user
X-To:         UNIT476%TWNMOE10.BITNET@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu,
              DEAF-L%SIUCVMB.BITNET@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu

Thank you for the welcome.

I'm Mark De Vore, a budget/accounting coordinator at the Health
Science Center (Shands Hospital) at the University of Florida. I am
learning ASL (in my fourth month).  A co-worker and I "discovered"
your group while roaming through internet lists.  I will probably
learn more than I can offer but look forward to participating.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 23:37:36 PDT
From:         Ronald Mitchell <mitch@SSC-VAX.BOEING.COM>
Subject:      Re: Where is Lew Galon??
X-To:         DEAF-L%SIUCVMB.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

Lew passed through Seattle last weekend.   Currently he should be
somewhre in the Canadian Rockies.  He is touring with his wife,
Barbara and sister Gail and will be returning to Los Angeles via Las
Vegas and then flying back to Chicago.  I believe his return to
Israel will be on July 16th or so.  He has been avidly following
Deaf_L on commandeered computers during his sojourn and printed out
several pages of postings while visiting here.

Ron Mitchell
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 10:52:00 EDT
From:         ALAMA10@HUMAIN.BITNET
Subject: Re: Slang, fluency and translationexit

To <rggentry@GALLUA.GALLAUDET.EDU>--

My comments concerned the _economics_ of oral and manual
education. From this perspective the issues you discuss in
your recent post are largely irrelevant, important as they
may be in other ways.

But you do make one of my economic points far better than I
could myself:

 > [...] Perhaps interpreters can be viewed as expensive,
 > but far more expensive are the communication breakdowns
 > that can occur without them...the misunderstood
 > doctor's directions, the misunderstood legalese of an
 > attorney, the inability to participate fully in
 > society's decisions because of a lack of information or
 > understanding. The consequences are far more expensive
 > than the interpreters.

A school or program which, for whatever reason, fails to
teach a deaf child as much speech competence as he/she is
capable of learning thereby saddles the child with the
lifelong economic burdens you so vividly describe here.

--David James
ALAMA10@HUMAIN.BITNET
DMJAMES@GALLUA.BITNET
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 01:58:45 -0400
From:         Miriam Clifford <DMIMI@ECSVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Slang, fluency and translation

Randy, you have used "deaf and hard of hearing" as though they are synonymous.
They are not.  Very few hard of hearing people, children or adult, use or
need, or want to use ASL.  Even if the hearing impairment is very severe,
a hard of hearing person is likely to have or be able to learn speech if,
he/she does not already communicate oral/aurally.  I have not intention of
getting into the argument about oral versus sign for deaf/Deaf people,
especially for pre-lingually deaf people, but do let's be a little more
careful with terminology.

dmimi@ecsvax.uncecs.edu  dmimi@ecsvax.bitnet
Miriam (Mimi) Clifford; 2535 Sevier St, Durham, NC 27705; 919-489-4821
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
From: 11telliott@gallua.gallaudet.edu (Zarathustra)
Subject: Re:      Re: Where is Lew Galon??
Organization: Gallaudet University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 02:10:48 GMT

I saw Lew Golan pass through the supermarket recently. I reported this to the
National Enquirer. Imagine my palipitations when he slowly approached me, and I
went hysterical, saying, "Deaf Suede Shoes!" ;) ;) ;)
Todd Elliott
11TELLIOTT@GALLUJ (Bitnet)
11TELLIO@GALLUX.GALLAUDET.EDU (Internet)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 01:25:39 EDT
From:         Chris Hafemeister-Salage <CHSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Relay advertisements and the lack thereof

On Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:26:43 EDT Paul Daniels said:
>Part of Dave Windley's comments on MD Relay Service PR or advertising:
>>       I work for Maryland Relay (MDRS).  All the "hearies" that work
>>       for MDRS are very disappointed in the marked lack of
>>       advertisement targeting the hearing community.  Statistically,
>>       over 80 percent of all calls through our relay are from
>>       Deaf/deaf/HOH to Hearingusers.  Ads and an agressive
>>       travelling marketing troupe have "touched" many deaf users
>>       letting them know about our service.  Yet I have only heard
>>       mention of one advertisement directed to the Hearing people.
>> ======================================================================
>
>I guess there is something wrong with PR Dept in MDRS. This dept. should
>be more aggressive to promote this service via newspaper, TV ads, or
>radio announcements to reach to the hearing population. VRC, VA Relay
>Center, hasn't done that much PR to the hearing community in Virginia
>either. Do any of you out there have any recommendations to improve
>PR in any state relay serive?
>Thanks for sharing, Paul Daniels
><LND@NIHCU.BITNER>

This situation exists in NY as well. I suspect no Relay servics does PR
to the hearing community. In NY this lack falls to AT&T. I wud like to know
from others out there in different states wht situation they find, bec this
is not the only shortcomming of our relay "service".

As for recommendations...I think this list might be a good place where such
information cud be collected which can then be put together for reason to put
pressure on all relays to improve so they will indeed service the community.
Bec it is not only continuence of the make-do situation the community has long
experienced, but violates the ADA bec if the hearing community is unfamiliar
with the relays, there is still no equality of access.

Ha! I did not expect I wud make a speech, but....

************************
Chris Hafemeister-Salage
CHSHC @ CUNYVM
CHSHC @ CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
************************
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
From: rggentry@gallua.gallaudet.edu
Subject: Re:      Re: Slang, fluency and translation
Organization: Gallaudet University
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:22:07 GMT

In article <DEAF-L%92072214195372@SIUCVMB.BITNET>,         ALAMA10@HUMAIN.BITNET writes:
> To <rggentry@GALLUA.GALLAUDET.EDU>:
> 
> Once again you inadvertently reinforced some of my points
> in trying to rebut them, but I see little reason for the
> two of us continuing to talk past each other.
> 
> Nevertheless I have a small favor to ask:
> 
> PLEASE PUT YOUR OWN NAME AT THE BOTTOMS OF YOUR POSTS.
> 
> Both of _your_ responses to me so far have ended with
> _my_ names and addresses. The confusion this could cause
> is annoying, to say the least.
> 
> --David James
> ALAMA10@HUMAIN.BITNET

> DMJAMES@GALLUA.BITNET

>>Yes, I noticed that too...my apologies. My sig file has conked out and I
don't know why...it's supposed to attach when I send...

>>I've been thinking about our conversation and have some more things to offer,
this time for the purpose of attempting to establish common ground. I hope
you are interested...I am sincerely interested in establishing common ground in some
are or another. Doing so usually leads to dialogue in other areas.

>>I think we both can agree on the value of oral skills for deaf and hard of
hearing people. I've developed mine, and I take it you have developed yours as
well. And as I've stated before, I support intensive oral and aural training
for deaf and hard of hearing children up until at least their teens, and beyond
if it is helping them. The benefits of oral skills are obvious. The deaf and
hard of hearing people I respect, and that is most I've ever met,
understand that and don't begrudge me that. And I am happy to be of whatever 
service I can be by utilizing my aural and oral skills.

>>At the same time, sign language for deaf and hard of hearing children and
their families is very important. First, because oral skills often do not
facilitate the kind of clear, open, spontaneous communication needed to fully
develop social skills and family relations. Second, because while some deaf and
hard of hearing people can become very skilled and proficient lipreaders and
speakers, many (and I'm not saying the majority here, because no one really has
a reliable figure) will not, can not, and never could. Close, prolonged, and
intimate contact with many deaf and hard of hearing people for several years
supports that last sentence. Not to mention deaf history and studies in various
scientific fields. And let's not leave out personal testimony from deaf and
hard of hearing people.

>>I'm thinking we can establish common ground in the first paragraph, but I get
the feeling that you wouldn't agree with the statements in the second. We could
go from here, I guess.

>>By the way, I'll fix the problem with my name on the posts. In return, I'd
appreciate it if you would stop saying that I am somehow "inadvertently
proving" your arguments. I assure you that when I want to prove your arguments
I will do so quite directly. 

Randy Gentry RGGENTRY@GALLUJ
"Anything that can be done, can be done backwards."
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:26:43 EDT
From:         Paul Daniels <LND@NIHCU.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Relay advertisements and the lack thereof

Part of Dave Windley's comments on MD Relay Service PR or advertising:
>       I work for Maryland Relay (MDRS).  All the "hearies" that work
>       for MDRS are very disappointed in the marked lack of
>       advertisement targeting the hearing community.  Statistically,
>       over 80 percent of all calls through our relay are from
>       Deaf/deaf/HOH to Hearingusers.  Ads and an agressive
>       travelling marketing troupe have "touched" many deaf users
>       letting them know about our service.  Yet I have only heard
>       mention of one advertisement directed to the Hearing people.
> ======================================================================

I guess there is something wrong with PR Dept in MDRS. This dept. should
be more aggressive to promote this service via newspaper, TV ads, or
radio announcements to reach to the hearing population. VRC, VA Relay
Center, hasn't done that much PR to the hearing community in Virginia
either. Do any of you out there have any recommendations to improve
PR in any state relay serive?
Thanks for sharing, Paul Daniels
<LND@NIHCU.BITNER>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 1992 21:26:47 EST
From:         Yen-Huang Liu <UNIT476@TWNMOE10.BITNET>
Subject:      new user

Hi!
   I am a ENT docter at Veterans General Hospital,Taipei,Taiwan.I am interestin
g in the field of human hearing and hope to participate in the discussion group
.Would you kind to give me some more information? Many thanks!

See You.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 11:58:39 CDT
From:         Kim <U30993@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Where is Lew Galon??

Lew Golan is currently in the USA. He was in the Chicago
area for his daughter's wedding, and is now travelling/bopping
around the USA. He was in California, visiting his publisher.

He's accessible thru ATT mail, but I don't know if he's
subscribed to Deaf-L from there.  Perhaps we're simply
too boring for him....  ;>

%-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-%=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-%
Kimberly J. Laird
 *University of Illinois-Chicago
   *BITNET:U30993@UICVM//INTERNET:U30993@UICVM.UIC.EDU
%-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-%=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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