HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: katherim@fraser.sfu.ca (Katherine Merle Mason)
Subject: Re: The story of the Scottish flag
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:31:09 GMT

crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:

>In article <katherim.724455687@sfu.ca> katherim@fraser.sfu.ca (Katherine Merle Mason) writes:
 
>>Actually actually, Canada never had an Elizabeth I.  Although Newfoundland
>>would have been under English posession during her reign, it didn't become
>>part of Canada until 1949, a wee bit after she passed on.  It was
>>in 1763 by the Treaty of Paris, and after her death in 1603 that Canada
>>(ie the St. Lawrence valley and the rest of the maritimes) became a English
>>colony and not New France. :-).
>>
>>Katherine Merle Mason the Canadian Imperial Historian
>>Ne Oublie....

>Ah, but you forget one thing: Elizabeth was Queen of France at the time.

>Or so she claimed. Actually, all English monarchs claimed to be the
>legitimate successors to Henry V and everything he ruled over--one 
>of these being France. Henry was acknowledged King of France in the
>Treaty of Troyes in 1420. After that every English monarch until 1763
>claimed France as their kingdom. The proclamations of James I, for
>example, read "In the name of James, King of England, Ireland, 
>Scotland and France..."

In that case I hereby proclaim myself Queen Katherine I of the entire 
world by virtue of being decended from Eve, the theoretical common
mother of us all (not the biblical one, but the one postulated from
the study of mitochondrial DNA).

>Is this thread getting weird or what????

Definelty.

>Chris
>The Smartass Imperial Historian

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!
Katherine Merle Mason (Katherine I of Planet Earth).
Ne Oublie....
 

Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8465 soc.culture.british:18084
From: fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: The story of the Scottish flag
Date: 28 Dec 1992 23:20:13 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <1992Dec28.051829.20527@newstand.syr.edu> crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:
>In article <1hlv1kINNgjj@network.ucsd.edu> fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister) writes:
>>
>>The British royal family is, however, not the royal family of
>>anywhere else in Europe (except Gibraltar). As to the royal families
>>of the Balkans, while most were of German origin, two most certainly
>>were not.
>>
>
>I'm not up on my Balkan dynastic history.Which ones are you referring to?
>(Are you counting the Austro-Hungarian throne?)


No. There are two Serbian royal families -- Obrenovic and
Karageorgevic -- which are both home grown.


>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>the United Kingdom sits atop a throne founded by Cedric of Wessex, if 
>>>>>you must know. Wessex is in southern England. 
>>>>
>>>>Cedric is not a Saxon name. Would you by any chance mean Egbert?
>>>
>>>Sorry, I meant to write Cerdic. He is mentioned in the Anglo-SAxon 
>>>Chronicle as having landed in Britain in 494 and conquering the 
>>>kingdom of Wessex (the West Saxons).
>>
>>The royal family traces its descent from Egbert (not to mention from
>>Arthur), though.
>>
>I checked my source again. The _Anglo-Saxon Chronicle_, p. 4, the Parker
>Chronicle (A):
>
>"...Then Beorhtic, whose ancestry goes back to Cerdic, succeeded [the throne
>of Wessex] and held it sixteen years. Then Egbert succeeded to the kingdom and
>held it thirty-seven years and seven months."
>
>Cerdic is the first mentioned chieftain of the West Saxons and was the
>founder of the dynasty (an HE traced his ancestry to Woden! I don't dabble
>in the genealogy of gods, though).
>
>Arthur has no place whatsoever in the royal bloodline. He was King of the       Britons--ie, Welsh leader against the Saxons. In real life his name was 
>Artorius and was the commander of the Britons against the English. Much
>of the rest is a fabrication of Malory and Tennyson.


Nonetheless, Arthur is to be found in the royal genealogies. Egbert
was the first person to whom the title King of England could apply.



-- 
Dawn over the dark sea brings on the sun;                      
She leans across the hilltop: see, the light!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: The story of the Scottish flag
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 05:18:28 EST

In article <1hlv1kINNgjj@network.ucsd.edu> fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister) writes:
>
>The British royal family is, however, not the royal family of
>anywhere else in Europe (except Gibraltar). As to the royal families
>of the Balkans, while most were of German origin, two most certainly
>were not.
>

I'm not up on my Balkan dynastic history.Which ones are you referring to?
(Are you counting the Austro-Hungarian throne?)
>
>>
>>>
>>>>the United Kingdom sits atop a throne founded by Cedric of Wessex, if 
>>>>you must know. Wessex is in southern England. 
>>>
>>>Cedric is not a Saxon name. Would you by any chance mean Egbert?
>>
>>Sorry, I meant to write Cerdic. He is mentioned in the Anglo-SAxon 
>>Chronicle as having landed in Britain in 494 and conquering the 
>>kingdom of Wessex (the West Saxons).
>
>The royal family traces its descent from Egbert (not to mention from
>Arthur), though.
>
I checked my source again. The _Anglo-Saxon Chronicle_, p. 4, the Parker
Chronicle (A):

"...Then Beorhtic, whose ancestry goes back to Cerdic, succeeded [the throne
of Wessex] and held it sixteen years. Then Egbert succeeded to the kingdom and
held it thirty-seven years and seven months."

Cerdic is the first mentioned chieftain of the West Saxons and was the
founder of the dynasty (an HE traced his ancestry to Woden! I don't dabble
in the genealogy of gods, though).

Arthur has no place whatsoever in the royal bloodline. He was King of the       Britons--ie, Welsh leader against the Saxons. In real life his name was 
Artorius and was the commander of the Britons against the English. Much
of the rest is a fabrication of Malory and Tennyson.

Chris

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.europe
From: faype@bcvms.bc.edu
Subject: *** PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS CROSS-CULTURAL SURVEY!!! ***
Organization: Boston College
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:13:01 GMT

****************************************************************
*                  REQUEST FOR SURVEY PARTICIPANTS             *
*         CROSS-CULTURAL STUDY ON SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL ABUSE    *
*                BOSTON COLLEGE SCHOOL OF SOCIAL WORK          *
****************************************************************

*********************  I NEED YOUR HELP !!!!! ******************

My name is Peter Fay and I'm a graduate student in clinical
social work at Boston College and I am asking survivors of child
sexual abuse to be volunteers to fill out a questionaire on sexual 
abuse.  You will be helping a research project find out more about 
sexual abuse, how it affects people of different cultures and how 
they recover from it.  As a clinician and survivor, I have a vested 
interest in helping expand the inadequate knowlege base on abuse 
and recovery in order to help survivors.

*********************** CONFIDENTIALITY ************************

All information will be kept under lock and key and not accessible
through any computer network.  No identifying information will 
be kept with questionaire responses.  All information will be
sent through U.S. Mail, and responses will be anonymous.  All work
will be overseen by Dr. Nancy Veeder, School of Social Work,
Boston College.  

I was a "founding member" the alt.sexual.abuse.recovery newsgroup 
and set up the first anonymous posting service two years ago and 
had no breaches of security or anonymity while I ran it.

****************************************************************

To volunteer to fill out the questionaire (or for more info),
please send me your name, address (and if possible phone #). You
may contact me through mail, e-mail or phone.  Thank you.

                      Peter Fay
                      7 North Bend Road
                      Worcester, MA 01602, USA
                      (508) 757-3125

                      E-mail: 
                         Internet: faype@bcvms.bc.edu
                         Bitnet:   faype@BCVMS
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: Slavery ( was Re: The story of the Scottish flag)
Keywords: This article printed on 100% recycled electrons
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 03:09:47 EST

In article <1992Dec30.192344.17481@Csli.Stanford.EDU> kyle@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Kyle Wohlmut) writes:
>
>I guess then Feudalism doesn't count?
>
Sorry, I don't believe so. The feudalistic system was no inherently a
slave society, but rather a society for the preservation of security and order.
That is, peasants received protection from the lord, and in return provided
labor and food for the lord. While the conditions of work may have seemed
quite like slavery note that the serfs possessed specific rights to protection
and land--tenancy. They could not be bought or sold, but came with the land.
Despite the harshness of the feudal life, I repeat that tenancy instead of 
base labor was the fundament of feudal serfdom--which is why, after the 
Black Death in the 14th century, serfdom went into a decline for purely 
economic and demographic reasons. Slave societies were never able to free
themselves of their way of life (in Rome and in the South, for example, 
things only got worse toward the end).

Chris


Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: kyle@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Kyle Wohlmut)
Subject: Re: Slavery ( was Re: The story of the Scottish flag)
Summary: Think global, act loco
Keywords: This article printed on 100% recycled electrons
Organization: Rocking Pig Enterprises
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:23:44 GMT

In article <C02o8v.DJ1@dcs.ed.ac.uk> morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna
"Morn-o-matic" Findlay) writes:

>I have read a bit about this recently in "Black Ivory - A History of
>British Slavery" by James Walton, but can't find any information on
>whether slavery existed in the UK prior to the settlement of the
>colonies and whether there was any racial basis to it if it did.
>

I guess then Feudalism doesn't count?

/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/
                       /               
/'''   Kyle Wohlmut    -  'Heute back ich, morgen brau ich, und       
c-OO                   /   uebermorgen hol ich mir der Koenigin ihr      
   \   Rocking Pig     -   Kind.  Ach, wie gut dass niemand weiss,
  -     Enterprises    /   dass ich kyle@csli.stanford.EDU heiss.'    
                       -                                              
-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8363 soc.culture.british:17905
From: smee@bristol.ac.uk (Paul Smee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british,uk.politics
Subject: Re: UK unemployment figures
Date: 21 Dec 92 10:13:36 GMT
Reply-To: P.Smee@bristol.ac.uk (Paul Smee)
Organization: University of Bristol

In article <1992Dec18.094255.21415@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
>From today's "Guardian":
>
>Scotland         9.7%
>Wales           10.1%
>N.Ireland       14.6%
>
>England:
> East Anglia     8.2%
> East Midlands   9.3%
> North          11.8%
> North West     10.8%
> South West      9.7%
> South East     10.1%
> West Midlands  11.2%
> Yorks & Humber 10.3%
>
>Now arguing from these figures, and even forgetting the huge
>amount of personal debt suffered by people in the south-east
>and the fact that housing costs are still much higher there,
>can we still hear from all those people who are perpetually
>saying what a privileged place south-east England is, how
>deprived Scotland is, how the Tory party is the "South-east
>England Nationalist party" etc.

Not from those figures, but you can still hear us argue that.  If you
look at recent historical figures, you'll spot that all they mean is
that at long last, the South East has caught up with the rest of the
country.  Those of us who live outside the SE have been in this range
for years.

Another factor that these figures overlook is how well those IN work in
the various regions are doing.  The Government itself says that a
certain level of unemployment (10%, to judge from what they achieve) is
acceptable if that's what is needed to make the rest of the economy
healthy.  I believe that if you compare average family incomes for the
various areas, even allowing for cost of living differences, you'll
find that the SE is doing well, relatively speaking.  Though it is, at
long last, beginning to slip into the same hole which the rest of us
have been clambering about in for years.  (Of course, this may mean
that the Tories lose their position as the SEENP, but I don't think
they have yet.)

-- 
Paul Smee, Computing Service, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1UD, UK
 P.Smee@bristol.ac.uk - ..!uunet!uknet!bsmail!p.smee - Tel +44 272 303132
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8468 soc.culture.british:18091
From: fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: The story of the Scottish flag
Date: 29 Dec 1992 03:26:22 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <1992Dec28.210209.25373@newstand.syr.edu> crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:
>>
>>Nonetheless, Arthur is to be found in the royal genealogies. Egbert
>>was the first person to whom the title King of England could apply.
>>
>>
>
>Egbert I can accept, because he is was a King of the West Saxons and ancestor
>of Alfred, the major Saxon king the genalogists look back to anyway. Bt
>ARTHUR? No, he's way too mythical, and when they put him in there they 
>might as well include Boudicca and Noah. :-)
>
What's that got to do with anything. Royal genealogies have little
to do with history, and everything to do with legitimation.

-- 
Dawn over the dark sea brings on the sun;                      
She leans across the hilltop: see, the light!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu  
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8414 soc.culture.british:18010
From: fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: The story of the Scottish flag
Date: 23 Dec 92 18:49:23 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <1992Dec23.013822.2855@newstand.syr.edu> crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:
>In article <1h5lrgINNd17@network.ucsd.edu> fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister) writes:
>>
>>Since no permanent settlement was made anywhere outside of the
>>British Isles (except for the Somers' Islands, I think), until the
>>reign of James I & VI, this happens not to be the case.
>>
>What about Roanoke? Martin's Hundred, VA? Those were certainly before 
>1603, no?
>
>

The key word above is permanent. Roanoke failed, the population
vanished.
-- 
____________________________________________________________________
Dawn over the dark sea brings on the sun;                      
She leans across the hilltop: see, the light!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Kilts
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:54:23 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie


scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers) wrote:
> 1:  How is a person's right to wearing a particular clan tarten 
>     determined.  Also how is clan affliation determined.

Go to a tartan shop in the high street of a Scottish tourist destination and
look for a chart saying what clan your name is associated with.

The Hasegawas are a sept of the Campbells and the beni Hashem of the MacLeods,
of course.  Perhaps for the Cohens a connection with the Brahan Seer might be
thinkable.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: The story of the Scottish flag
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 01:38:22 EST

In article <1h5lrgINNd17@network.ucsd.edu> fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister) writes:
>
>Since no permanent settlement was made anywhere outside of the
>British Isles (except for the Somers' Islands, I think), until the
>reign of James I & VI, this happens not to be the case.
>
What about Roanoke? Martin's Hundred, VA? Those were certainly before 
1603, no?


Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8473 soc.culture.british:18098
From: mckeonj@ul.ie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: New Taoiseach?
Date: 21 Dec 92 09:33:28 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

In article <29525@castle.ed.ac.uk>, edch14@castle.ed.ac.uk (R V P Flood) writes:
> Anyone out there know the outcome of the nominations for Taoiseach yet
> or the bargaining for the formation of the government?
Fianna Fail and Labour are *still* talking about coalition.
We are not likely to get a new government this year, and whatever
happens, we'll get a dick for Taoiseach.......
-- 
"If England sleeps, shall Ireland dream?" : Se/an macEoin
-------------------------------------------------------------------
John McKeon, Material Science Dept. University of Limerick, Ireland
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: halchuk@seismo.emr.ca (Steve Halchuk)
Subject: Gaelic Translation and Pronounciation Please
Reply-To: halchuk@seismo.emr.ca
Organization: Dept. of Energy, Mines & Resources, Canada
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:18:14 GMT

A post doctoral fellow from Scotland has offered special Scottish 
delicacies (haggis?) for the correct pronounciation and translation
of the following phrase:

"Nollaig chridheil agus bliadhna mhath 'ur"

any help in translating this would be greatly appreciated

cheers
Stephen


---
 +============+     | S. Halchuk, halchuk@seismo.emr.ca
 |  o \0\     |}    |"I've never been asked, 
 |      \     | }   | And I've never replied
 |      \\    |  }  | If I supported Glasgow Rangers" :-) The Pogues
                     




Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: katherim@fraser.sfu.ca (Katherine Merle Mason)
Subject: Re: Slavery ( was Re: The story of the Scottish flag)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:12:29 GMT

morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes:

[stuff deleted]                  

>You two seem to be mines of information on the very interesting subjects
>of slavery and indentured servitude. I wonder if you can answer one
>question that has preplexed me for some time..

>Why did the British colonies introduce slavery? 

>I don't mean why did they do this for economic reasons, but what basis
>did the purchase and ownership of people have in English law, which I
>assume applied to the colonies.

>I have read a bit about this recently in "Black Ivory - A History of
>British Slavery" by James Walton, but can't find any information on
>whether slavery existed in the UK prior to the settlement of the
>colonies and whether there was any racial basis to it if it did.

Very early on during Roman times, definetly.
After that feudalism.
I don't remember ever hearing about factory serfs in the UK but they
were common enough in other countries (eg Russian Empire).

Happy New Year,
Katherine Merle Mason
Ne Oublie....
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: Cromwell
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:43:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.050118.5106@massey.ac.nz> news@massey.ac.nz (USENET News System) writes:

>These postings about Cromwell remind me of an incident a few years in 
>Connolly train station (Amiens St, dublin).  There was a young american
>tourist in the sweet-shop, who was getting on the Belfast bound train but
>not intending to go the whole way and was considering getting off at
>Drogheda (about 30 miles away). As he was paying for his ??(cookies,
>newspaper or whatever), he asked the lady at the till if she knew
>anything about Drogheda worth seeing or doing etc.  She paused for a
>moment and then told him that all she knew was that there was a massacre
>there some years ago, and then she got carried away with graphic
>descriptions of how the people taking refuge in the Church were burnt
>alive, etc, etc, and that even now there was still a skull in the church
>(it actually belongs to St. Oliver Plunkett).  Of course she neglected to
>say that all this had happened a long time ago and our tourist friend was
>beginning to feel a little bit uneasy (and I wasn't feeling too good
>myself!).  He then had a change of heart and asked her was there anything
>to see or do in Dundalk (twenty miles further on). Again she paused, and
>then confessed that she didn't know much. but thought there had been a
>big massacre there was well. The tourist thanked her politely (presumably
>for doing a wonderful job at promoting county Louth as a friendly place
>to visit!!), and the last I saw of him he was trying to get a refund on
>his ticket and was enquiring about catching a train from Heuston station
>( from where trains go South and West).
>--Cromwell wrath lives on----

Heheh

In Sullivan's book about Carolan it mentions the story behind the tune
"Eleanor Plunkett". The story goes that she was the only survivor of 
her family, the rest were put to death with boiling water. I wonder if
this was Cromwell's doing. Such a nice tune too.. surprising that there'd 
be such a gruesome story behind it.










-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8353 soc.culture.british:17890
From: gdb15@grebe.cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british,uk.politics
Subject: Re: UK unemployment figures
Date: 21 Dec 92 15:34:08 GMT
Reply-To: gdb15@cl.cam.ac.uk
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

In article <1992Dec21.152845.7054@infodev.cam.ac.uk> gdb15@cl.cam.ac.uk writes:
>
>I see, now you're insulting southerners -- you know the rules, that's
>a pound in the box please.  

I've just realized that this thread is cross-posted to three groups --
the above only makes sense in the context of uk.politics!  Now, Morna,
be honest and tell me which group you were posting from...

--
Guy Barry, University of Cambridge | Phone: +44 (0)223 334757 
Computer Laboratory                | Fax: +44 (0)223 334678
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street  | JANET: Guy.Barry@uk.ac.cam.cl 
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England, UK     | Internet: Guy.Barry@cl.cam.ac.uk 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic