From: TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Castro Street (Re: Two threads:  women posting and "cures" and its spinoffs)
Organization: The University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:25:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.014224.8123@spdcc.com>
dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
 
>In article <168BAA428.TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu> TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu writes:
>>As I see it, the problem that has come clear after all my badgering about
>>female invisibility on soc.motss is that (some of) the men here see things
>>in terms of two simple equations:
>>Visibility/attention = leering
>>Lesbian/women's issues = how women manage to have sex without dicks
>
>And I think you're out of line here.
>
I don't think so. First of all, witness that I didn't presume that
*all* men on soc.motss feel this way -- I'd have to be even more stupid
than you think I am to believe that M*lm*n speaks for all of you. I fully
realize that some -- you especially, Steve -- are so much more enlightened.
(Hint -- I'm being *sarcastic*.)
 
You will also notice that I wrote this in response to M*lm*n's comment
that "when they're ignored, des femmes fascistes feel hurt. When they
get attention, it's always the wrong kind of attention." Thanks for
removing that bothersome material that would have provided some con-
text for your little flame.
 
>>I'm not imagining this. One of my dear brothers on soc.motss, once he
>>got up the nerve to ask a question, could come up with nothing more
>>insightful than "What do lesbians do in sex clubs?" Perhaps I'm being
>>too hard on him, but I hear questions like that enough from *straight*
>>guys. I expect better here.
>
>Listen, Greg Parkinson doesn't have to get his nerve up to ask anyone
>a question.  You think he's getting his rocks off asking you that?
>Fuck you too.  Why don't _you_ get a clue, sister, and realize where
>_you're_ saying this?
>
 
I've been told by a fellow female whom I respect that I may have over-
reacted to Greg's question, and that is certainly a possibility. I no-
tice that no other women have seen fit to respond to it, though.
 
>What's your point?  It's insulting to women to ask them about the
>newly popular lesbian sex clubs?  That REAL lesbians are somehow above
>this?  Where's Tsilke when we need her?
 
REAL lesbians, myself included, are not above this. They are more than
this, though, just like gay men, right?
>
>>The point is that to many men "gay" means "gay male." They seem to neither
>>realize nor care that there are lesbians out there fighting the same kind
>>of fights. Okay, the AIDS crisis has not hit the lesbian community to any-
>>where near the degree it hit gay men, but lesbians are right there in the
>>trenches with PWAs, demonstrating, nursing male friends, crying and mourn-
>>ing. But I digress.
>
>You sure do.  It was a terribly original thought 5 years ago, though.
>
It's as true in 1992 as in 1987. It may not be original, but it's relevant.
 
>>Gay culture is not restricted to raves, and show tunes, and Harvey Fierstein
>>(sp?) and any number of othher gay male icons/activities. Those cultural
>>references dominate soc.motss, understandably so because men dominate soc.
>>motss by sheer numbers.
>
>I think you're being deliberately selective and painting a manifestly
>false picture of what goes on here in soc.motss.
>
>I have no interest in raves, show tunes, much about Harvey Fierstein
>(wow, his commencement speech seems to have made a BIG impression on
>you, huh?  Of course, it had nothing to say to _you_ as a lesbian,
>did it?) or very likely, just about anything that you might imagine is
>a "gay male activity", or at least what passes for same in Tuscaloosa.
>
Don't hick-bait me, Steve. I know damned well how culturally impoverished
I am for having grown up in the Deep South.
 
>>We lesbians know a lot about your culture; we have little
>>choice. How much do you know about ours? How much do you care?
>
>Have you met Donald Agarrat?
>
Not personally, although I read his posts and tried to e-mail him.
What's your point?
 
>>I can also ask that you be more conscious of the presence of women
>>in the struggle of gayfolk -- men and women -- for equality and accep-
>>tance.
>
>Right.  Mea culpa, mea culpa <beating breast>.  You're going to have to
>come up with more cogent stuff than this.  You sound like you just walked
>out of your women's studies class.
>
>--
>Steve Dyer
>dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
 
Thanks for the critique. And that cogent "Fuck you too" gives one the
impression you just took a debate course.
 
Tracey
Shyster stealth lesbian weasel-in-training