HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dmz1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Daniel M Zabetakis)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: How to stop wars
Date: 12 Apr 92 17:27:36 GMT
Reply-To: dmz1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Daniel M Zabetakis)
Organization: Columbia University


       Let me first say that (as the writer of the charter) I think 
the discussions about ending war are just fine for this group. In fact
I think discussing anti-war songs is great too.
     What we do not need is politically oriented flame wars. I don't think
anyone is really _for_ war. We can, and probably should, debate ways
of maintaining peace, in both the short and long term.
    My advice for the people in this group: Don't flame people who hold
strong views about peace, and anti-war. Engage them in discussion. You will
either learn something new, or have your views confirmed.
   My advise to people who will post anti-war articles: If you post here,
be prepared to debate the issues. Don't use this group for unidirectional
protest communication. 

In article <92102.230859DAM137@psuvm.psu.edu> <DAM137@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>Just a quick solution that was put forward by a German poem entitled
>"Sagt Nein! (Say No!)" written just after WWII:
[...]

>  All it takes is the will of the people of the Earth to end
>war at all costs...
>
    The problem I see is that the first society to reinvent war would
dominate,and probably destroy the rest of the world. What we really need
is other ways to resolve real and bitter conflicts. 
    The 'the just say no' message depends too much on everyone agreeing
all together that war is bad. Take your message to Armenia or Azerbijan
of today, or Finland of 1939, or any number of the myriad conflicts in 
history, and you will not have many people listen to you.

DanZ


This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions, or
narratives contained herein are not necessarily true, and do not
necessarily represent the views of any particular person.
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: sjknell@descartes.uwaterloo.ca (Jason Knell)
Subject: Greatest Military/War Games
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 03:08:04 GMT

Ok.  Here's a RELATIVELY simple question that I need answered (out of 
curiousity):

   What are the greatest/best military/war games to play?  I'm more   
   interested in games of strategy and/or tactics.  Some people have
   suggested to me that chess is the ultimate.  But what do you war
   experts think?


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Jason Knell, Undergrad (Math)         |  I defend my opinions with the
 U. of Waterloo (Canada)               |  fanatical conviction of a psycho!
 sjknell@descartes.waterloo.edu        |                  -me
From: bwise@hemlock.mitre.org (Barry Wise)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Interesting challenge.
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:59:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: linus.1992Apr14.155958.5363
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

In article <viking.703133928@aviator.cc.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan  
Sorenson) writes:
> 	Because killing him would have made him a martyr, and as
> a defeated but alive political leader he is much less powerful.

It would have been an assassination and we don't do those things do we? We'd  
much rather kill the grunts out in the field. Wars are started by leaders but  
the soldiers do the dying. I don't think a leader has led the charge since the  
War of the Roses.
--
Barry Wise
(bwise@hemlock.mitre.org)
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: the greatest generals of all time
Keywords: Mongols
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:28:08 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <9APR199218145175@venus.lerc.nasa.gov> smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:
>>
>Turnbull says that at the time of Genghis death, the Mongol army numbered
>123,000 TOTAL.  So it is difficult to believe that 75% of the army was used as
>a flank guard into Poland, with the remaining 25% hitting the 100,000
>Hungarians and guarding the empire.  Chambers mentions an invading force of
>100,000 Mongols. 

Using Osprey Men-at-Arms books as source ? Heath warns about them. He says
they are good reading, but contain many grave errors and faults.

A Moslem historian Rashid al-Din records, that on death of Tzinghis Khan 
(remember, this happened 1227 !) the Mongol armies totaled 129,000, of which
Army of the Left Wing (East) consisted of 62,000, the Army of the Right Wing
(West) of 38,000 and The Imperial Horde of 29,000. Remember that this was the
situation _fifteen years_ before the European campaign. 

Auxiliaries, as I have previosly stated, made up a large part of the army.
Rashid al-Din mentions, that some ten years after the death of Tzinghis the
Mongols were able to mobilize 1,400,000 men, while Khan 0go"dei claimed himself
to be able to maintain five armies, totaling 1,500,000 men.

If we assume, that the Mongol army at Liegnitz, let's say 120,000, consisted
of 40% Mongols, 45% other nomads (some 20 nomad peoples as subjects are listed
in the "Armies and Enemies of the Crusades") and 15% of other auxiliaries,we 
are possibly not far from truth.It is easy to imagine that the number of pure
Mongol troops had increased to some 160,000 to the 1240's: the Western
army may well have consisted some 70,000 Mongols and an innumerable total of
auxiliaries, mainly other nomads. Therefore the contemporary notation "the 
hordes of Tartars exceed the locusts and ants in numbers" may be quite correct.
  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (a.j.s. nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Interesting challenge.
Organization:  University of Toronto 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 04:13:20 GMT

The last British monarch to lead his troops in battle was King George II at the
Battle of Dettingen.  I would wager that the last French monarch to lead his
own armies was Napoleon, but that's a guess.  King Leopold of Belgium briefly
led his own armies in the field in 1940.

_____________________________________________________________________________
        Aryk Nusbacher                .. ..       Hart House, 1916
                                      ||_||  Women Admitted since 1972
          Hart House                  | I |     || ||          || ||  ..    ..
Informal Education in the University  |   |   . ||_||__________||_||  || ___||
                                      | O |___|_|__________________|__| /  \ |
    aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca         |   |       o oo  oo  oo   o      |__| |
                                      |_A_|_______A_oo  oo  oo   A__^^^______|
_____________________________________________________`------------____________


Newsgroups: alt.war
From: bitn@quads.uchicago.edu (nathan elery bitner)
Subject: Re: How to stop wars
Reply-To: bitn@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 07:16:33 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.101512.6604@pimacc.pima.edu> ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu writes:
>
> 
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Interesting, though, that soldiers in the Soviet Union, and
>> some of the soldiers in China refused orders to fire upon 
>> their own countrymen.  It's a shame it's not like that here, huh?
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 

 (Sorry to grab this from someone else's post -- PHIL -- but I lost ther
original)

 This statement is ridiculous, inflammatory, and *completely* inaccurate.
Nowhere else in the world in recent history have so many civilians been
shot by their own soldiers.  Just because only a few deaths resulted in
the attempted coup last August means very little.  First of all, *here*,
we don't surround our citizens with blockades and tanks and threaten to
blow up buildings where they are congregating or attempt to blow up their
leaders.  Secondly, have you completely forgotten how the ex-Red Army
operated?  They constantly waged a war of terror on Soviet civilians and,
believe me, killing them was *not* big news.  As for China, how can you
make such a ridiculous statement just three years after Tiananmen Square?
I see the word "some" in your statement but if you want to be accurate,
you might want to change it to "very, very few".  The armies in both China
and the ex-USSR feel very threatened by people like the pro-democracy
demonstrators.  In China, not too many were that sorry to see Tiananmen
end in the manner that it did, especially now that the results were as 
successful (for them) as they were.  

Any soldier will (and should) feel extremely uneasy firing upon his own
countrymen.  You just happened to pick two of the countries where this
happened most often to prove a ridiculous (have I used that word yet? :) )
point that has absolutely no base.  The fact is that you would have trouble
coming up with any modern incidents of the U.S. Army firing upon its own
citizens (see PHIL's post regarding Kent State) whereas I could give you
hundreds of examples of the Soviet and Chinese armies doing this.

Finally, if you feel so threatened by the U.S. Army, there's always our
neighbor to the north ...
I hear those mounties can get pretty dangerous ... :)

-- 
"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."
				-Leon Trotsky
From: rjl+@pitt.edu (Richard J. Loether)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Invade Colombia ?!?
Summary: Get a clue.
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:40:54 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Mar31.202638.2542@vax1.umkc.edu> molaughlin@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
>
>	Recently, I've been thinking that perhaps we could put some of this
>military surplus and extra, dormant conventianal weaponary to some use. For,
>example, a very major problem in the U.S. is drugs. Living in the inner-city, I
>know drugs is the root of many social problems like crime, illiteracy, gangs,
>etc. ----

Living in the inner-city, you've now doubt heard about the evils of
drugs many times.  Surprise - you've been lied to.  We have major
problems with exactly two drugs in this country, alcohol and tobacco.
Everything else is small potatoes.  Alcohol causes the most social
problems and tobacco the most medical problems.  And they're both legal.

Maybe you've heard that we tried to eliminate alcohol once.  Maybe you
know the outcome of that experiment.
>
>	I put to you for your debate the idea that the U.S. should militarily
>intervene where the crap is coming from. (S. America, SE Asia, etc.) Let's take
>Colombia for example. I propose the U.S. should launch an opperation where a
>full-scale invasion (unlike 'Nam) occupies the capital, all major cities and
>industrial areas, commences a naval blockade along the coast, and proceeds to
>issue an air-campaign to burn all big drug producing plantations. Then, set up
>a puppet regime to maintain control. 
>

We DID actually invade one of the major drug producing areas once.  It
was a somewhat successful, although bloody, operation.  Of course that
would be unacceptable today since Jesse Helms lives there now.

...
>	I realize this is a very debatable idea and I haven't thought it out in
>depth so all comments and criticisms on the _idea_ are welcome.
>
>Mike - Kansas City

RJL
-- 
Rich Loether (rjl@unix.cis.pitt.edu)
Computing and Info Services (Systems & Networks)
(412) 624-6429 / FAX (412) 624-6436
From: k21701@kyyppari.hkkk.fi (Teppo Nieminen)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: What about the worst generals ever?
Date: 13 Apr 92 07:48:47 GMT
Organization: Helsinki School of Economics, Finland

I suggest William Westmoreland (US commanding general in Vietnam).
Very few people have gone to such extreme pains to deny the obvious
from both their superiors and themselves. 
BTW, is it true that the teeth-to-tail-ratio of the US army in 'Nam 
was the worst ever in history?
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: hnkst2+@pitt.edu (Hanhwe N Kim)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: What about the worst generals ever?
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:29:13 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

It would have to be Pyrhhus. The greek king who destroyed
his army by defeating a Roman force, thus leading to the
eventual conquest by Romans of his kingdom.

The originator of the term "Pyrhhic victory".

Other than Westmoreland:

Somewhere along the list would be included the leaders of
the US-South Korean, and Chinese-North Korean armies who
let their armies bleed away needlessly, losing division
after division fighting over small hills in the dmz, while
they failed to come up with a doable truce for 2 years. 

Also candidates are the French and German leaders who
wasted their armies in the trenches on the Western front.
Organization: Junior, History, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.war
Date: Thu,  9 Apr 1992 22:54:45 -0400 
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Greatest Military/War Games

Well, the best simulation of being under fire in the field (alas, I have
no real combat experiences to compare this to) IMHO go play a good game
of paintball.  Heck, you can even get "killed"!

Allan
-------------------------------------
Allan Bourdius [(|)K(-)/USMCR]
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu
"Give, expecting nothing thereof."
All opinions are those of the author.
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: fsrla@acad2.alaska.edu
Subject: some more to viking. 
Organization: University of Alaska
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 20:39:48 GMT

More to Viking  (this is an interesting converstation)
I do understand were one persons morals are diffrent from anouther.
As for never being in the military, well, not as such.  But grew up in
a military family for 20 years.  I understand all that treason, mutiny,
and discharge stuff you are fond of talking about.
This message will also answer a few questions someone else asked.
1.  How far would I go to protect myself????
    I would never aim to kill the aggressor.  Only protect myself.
    If the agressor has a gun....  well, wht the hell can I really do?
    I could try and get it away, I guess...  Wonder what the odds I'd 
     make it are....  

2.  How far would I go to protect loved ones.
    Here's where we would get a gray area on me..  I won't really
    know till it happens I guess.  I would put their lives above mine
    though.

 Anyway, those are answeres to a question someone else asked.
 Now, Viking, I still am stunned at you lack of sensitivity.  But, like 
I said, our morals are different.  You say that if the orders were to kill
children, you'd do it.  That there would be a reason your superior gave you
the order, so you would do it.  Did you hear about Mia Lie (my spelling is 
probably wrong) were the villigers were killed without cause, and it was 
proven as such?  I don't know about you, but I would not have obeyed the 
order.  If that meant being shot and killed by my own people, so be it.
I would never do that.  I would never deliberatly aim to kill anybody.
I couldnn't do it.  And I wouldn't want to.
How can a person end a life, and then just walk away?  I couldn't.
And NO (for those people about to scream "Then you want others to do
it for you") I do not.  War shouldn't be neccisary.
As for the Middle East, don't any of you relize we were not wanted there
by the countries we were "suposedly" protecting, well, until Bush cried
a lot and pushed and pushed them till they finaly gave in.

Newsgroups: alt.war,soc.culture.asian.american
From: yarvin-norman@CS.YALE.EDU (Norman Yarvin)
Subject: Re: The War in 2020 (was US military policy)
Organization: Yale Computer Science Department
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:15:34 GMT

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>... the Nobel prize is given in the name of the man who
>invented TNT, declaring that he has discovered a substance so
>powerful that it would end warfare because it was just too powerful
>and would make the cost in lives too great.

Well, do you see war between civilized countries any more?  I think Nobel was
right.  It just took the rest of the human race a hundred years or so to
realize it.

--
Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Flowers?
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:00:05 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

Oh when will they ever learn ?

People ? Never, I guess. I am a cynic, not an idealistic pacifist like you.

"Sure I do believe in peace - peace thru superior firepower" C:-(

What about posting the lyrics of "Puff The Magic Dragon" next ?



  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
From: fsrla@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: A voice to be heard
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:19:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad3.1992Apr15.101926.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <1992Apr15.033323.3866@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>, dmeier@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Douglas Meier) writes:
> In article <1992Apr11.225051.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fsrla@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
>>So, you all want an explenation to the lyrics???
> (Stuff about why lyrics are posted and other stuff)
> 
> Alright, let's not say, "Let's blow the hell out of Columbia!"  Howzabout,
> 
> "Let's blow the hell out of Asbury!"
> 
> :) :) :)
> 
> Smileys posted for the humor impaired.
> 
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Roger Asbury                            email:  fsrla@acad3.alaska.edu
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 
> Douglas C. Meier		|  You can sell your soul, but don't you      
> dmeier@casbah.acns.nwu.edu 	|  sell it too cheap!
> 				|  
> Standard Disclaimer		|  -Randy Bachman, The Guess Who
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find you threats in no way humorous.  
I do believe however that you have a very warped mind.
Newsgroups: alt.aeffle.und.pferdle
From: TheFolks@Germany
Subject: Ich habe ein grosses hund
Reply-To: Deutschland
Organization: HundKlubbe
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 03:53:01 GMT

Mein hund ist meine liebersding.  Bitte, schreibt deinen hunder gespielt.
From: RTH2@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.motorcycles.harley
Subject: T2 Harley.... what model???
Date: 9 Apr 92 01:10:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: psuvm.92099.211042RTH2
Organization: Penn State University

Does anyone know the model of the Harley in Terminator 2?  Good looking
bike! Also do you have any idea why there wasn't any turn signals on it??
Just wondering. Thanks in advance.
-Don
Newsgroups: alt.motorcycles.harley
From: rxm8@po.CWRU.Edu (Ron Moritz)
Subject: Re: Performance Pipes
Reply-To: rxm8@po.CWRU.Edu (Ron Moritz)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 00:49:25 GMT


In a previous article, hubcap@hubcap.clemson.edu (System Janitor) says:

> *In a previous article, hubcap@hubcap.clemson.edu (System Janitor) says:
> 

   ... stuff deleted ...

>and have a bike quite enough that my neighbors won't hate me.

That much I can relate to.  I've got an FLSTC on order (ordered in
October and still can't get HD to commit to a deliver date!) and
plan on changing the stock pipes (for performance as well as 
sound quality).  I really like the 2-into-1 but love the sound
of mini-fishtails.  The problem, either way, is that roling into
my apartment building at 2:00 a.m. is not going to be pleasant
for my neighbors.  You know, the old 'do unto others ...' and
not appreciating being woken up in the middle of the night.

Oh well, F*** 'em.  Gotta love the sound of the V-twin!
Good luck finding an answer to making your HD less noisy.
Organization: Senior, Civil Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.motorcycles.harley
Date: Tue,  7 Apr 1992 21:55:21 -0400 
From: "Peter A. Simon" <ps3p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Well Made, AMF, etc.
	<1992Apr7.185313.20508@cirrus.com>
Distribution: usa

>Go read the book! It's fascinating, and you'll find out who some of the other
>good guys and bad guys really are.
> 
>George

By all means, read the book.  It gets rid of a lot of urban style myths
about HD and HDs.  It was assigned reading for an MBA course at Univ. of
IL as a classic case of a company being turned around and made to work
by a very dedicated group of company officers.

Peter
From: bcasper@c00313-11pa.eos.ncsu.edu (Brian Casper)
Newsgroups: alt.motorcycles.harley
Subject: Harley Home Improvement
Date: 15 Apr 92 13:46:04 GMT
Organization: NCSU Project Eos

On last nights episode of Home Improvement, Tim Allen spent the better
part ofthe evening upgrading hte motor on his riding mower from a
standard briggs & stratton to a Harley v-twin.  Anybody else catch
this prime time vid-junkfood?  It looked like a shovelhead, but I'm
not completely sure...


--
Brian Casper                |     "Go ahead - call me apathetic...
bcasper@eos.ncsu.edu        |      I don't care and it won't change anything."
    net.pin.mechanic        |     "Hey everybody, Send me your pocket change."
From: weigl@sibelius.inria.fr (Konrad Weigl)
Newsgroups: alt.motorcycles.harley
Subject: Re: Kick Starters for Softails
Keywords: Soft Tail Kick starter
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:26:52 GMT
Organization: INRIA, Sophia-Antipolis (Fr)

In article <1992Apr3.171807.12781@cirrus.com>, grenley@cirrus.com (George Grenley) writes:
 
|> There is considerable sentiment that those with the fake kits should be
|> drawn and quartered, then hung, and finally burned  8-).

Just sabotage their electric start while they are inside their favorite disco...

8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

Konrad Weigl               Tel. +33 93 65 78 63
Projet Pastis              Fax  +33 93 65 76 43
INRIA                      email weigl@sophia.inria.fr
B.P. 93
06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex 
France
From: pha50@seq1.keele.ac.uk (P.J. Mitchell)
Newsgroups: alt.motorcycles.harley
Subject: Re: Nova engine status??
Date: 6 Apr 92 09:02:46 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

From article <1992Apr3.021850.26248@Pacesetter.COM>, by lynn@Pacesetter.COM (Lynn E. Hall):
>  I sure hate to put this on the HOG net but the Magna and Sabre from the
> land of rice are virtually identical copies of this design.  This was from
> seeing the rare photo's of the Porsche design and comparing to existing
> bikes owned by some friends. 

What you mean is that one water cooled OHC V4 looks like another water
cooled OHC V4, no big deal really, and certainly not grounds to say that
they were "virtually identical copies"!

Go look at a selection of Japanese (or Triumph) water cooled stright
fours and note how similar they all look.
-- 
Paul Mitchell (CMA#55(18) MAG#65715 DoD#0145)  | Department of Physics,
JANET:  p.j.mitchell@uk.ac.keele.seq1          | Keele University, Keele,
USENET: p.j.mitchell@seq1.keele.ac.uk          | Staffordshire, ST5 5BG, U.K.
BITNET: p.j.mitchell%seq1.keele.ac.uk@ukacrl   | (+44 or 0)782 621111 ext 7966
Organization: Freshman, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA