From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 08:43:42 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.154905.5659@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.202027.17895@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake
>Livni) writes:
>
>|>In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug25164553@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
>|>writes:
>|>>In article <BtJsL7.9yu@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> idfriedm@hertz.uwaterloo.ca (id
>|>friedman) writes:
>|>
>|>>>     Israel has withdrawn from most of the territory.
>|>>
>|>>"Most" here is presumably defined by geographical area.  One could
>|>>easily well choose another measure, such as population or number of
>|>>holy religious sites, which would indicate that Israel has not
>|>>withdrawn from most of the territory.
>|>
>|>You illustrate here precisely one of the worst problems in such peace
>|>agreements, that of post-agreement re-definition of the terms.
>|>
>|>Who is to say that the Jordanians or others, perhaps with a
>|>democratically and newly-elected Islamic government, claim after the
>|>return of the vast majority of the West Bank and Gaza but not of
>|>Jerusalem that because Jerusalem constitutes over 90% of the land's
>|>holiness (as defined in the Koran, perhaps), that less than 10% of the
>|>peace should be given in return and that Israel will STILL owe them
>|>more.
>
>Occupying land in the fear of future invasion is not a sustainable long term
>policy. Sooner or later the balance of power will shift and the occupied land
>will be the cause of an invasion. That is why to have peace the occupied
>teritories must be returned up to the very last centimeter.

Your reason is ridiculous - if the balance of power changes and we
return the territories then the Arab side has MUCH MORE chance in 
"liberating" teh whole of Palestine. if we retain teh territories
we have a buffer zone that can hold them back. If we had returned 
Sinai and the Golan after 1967 (like in 1956) then we could have face
a total destruction in a 1973-style attack.
If one supposes Arab insincerity in the future - one should avoid 
giving up even the first centimeter.

If the Arab side is not keen on peace - there's only more reason to
have the territories. If there is a trust in teh Arabs' keenness then
Territories squabble is pointless. I however have no trust in the
Arabs' keenness with regard to Peace with Israel. I think even Rabin 
and his followers don't beleive the Arabs they just can't see another 
way out of the situation. Only fools like Merez beleive in Arab good
faith and they justifiably are ready to give the Palestinians independent
state. If one believes in the Arabs - one should not quibble about
trifles. As a matter of fact if one takes this EXTREMELY NAIVE position
one can hardly justify the claim over Jerusalam as only Israel's.
>
>|>>This is not at all clear.  First, it is very difficult to say that
>|>>compliance in i) is better than compliance in ii), because different
>|>>measures have to be applied.  You are apparently comparing the
>|>>fraction of occupied land mass returned in i) to the fraction of
>|>>nations at peace in ii).  This sounds like apples and oranges to me.
>|>
>|>PRECISELY!!!!  This is why land-for-land or peace-for-peace are much
>|>more workable solutions than land-for-peace.  The current approach is
>|>mixing apples and oranges; one side will always be able to say that
>|>they gave away too many apples for the oranges that they have
>|>received!!
>
>Point of fact Jake, the Palestineans don't actualy have anything to give.

Yes, they have - stop the violence in the territories, leave the
terrorist group of the PLO. Cooeration with Israel in economic and
humanitarian treatment of teh Refugees problem (not in the Right of
return pattern).

>Phill Hallam-Baker

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
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