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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 12:05:03 -0700
From:         cartnaj <cartnaj@EAGLE.SAFB.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Colorado

Message Forwarded by cartnaj (cartnaj@eagle.safb.af.mil):
> > I guess maybe we need special rights for murders, too!
>
> 3. Murders have nothing to do with the topic.  I don't think murders should
>    be given civil rights because the act takes away the rights of the

Sorry, Michele, about the name.  Just misread it.

My comment was in reference to sodomy laws.  If something is believed to be
wrong, and there are laws against it, does that make it a violation of civil
rights?  I am referring to laws against certain behavior.  Murder is one, and
homosexuality is another.  Now, if it is an opinion of what is wrong, then we
talk of basis for right and wrong.  If it is wrong, it is wrong.  Consenting
or not.

In any case do SPECIAL rights need to be given to people by virtue of a choice
in lifestyle?



                                                Joe C.
                                                cartnaj@eagle.safb.af.mil
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:38:06 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      A remark that caused a furor

If Sieg meant this as sarcasm, I apologize.  I did not understand
the message.  I was wondering what denomination was "American".
That name was a new one on me. Thanks for the explaination, James.

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 12:47:03 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject:      INTEREST GROUP

Does anyone out there know how many of us are currently subscribing to
CHRISTIA?
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:04:49 EST
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From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Including Christ in Christmas

*** Resending note of 12/14/92 14:40



No this isn't another post (remember last year?) about whether we should use
"Christmas" or "Xmas."

I went to church yesterday, and I'm glad I did.  I almost stayed home because
Sarah had been up since 5 a.m., and I had a headache that Extra Strength
Tylenol couldn't even touch.  But I went anyway, and the theme for the morning
was how Christ sometimes gets left out of all of our celebrations this time of
year.  Our Sunday School teacher told this anecdote (as I remember it):  There
was once a woman who prayed every year that Christ would visit her family for
Christmas, until one year, at Christmas, there was a knock on the door.  When
she opened the door, there Jesus stood.  So she invited him in.  But there were
only enough places at the table for the family members, and so there was no
place for Jesus to sit.  After dinner, she passed out all of the gifts that
were under the tree.  Every family member had several gifts, but there was
none for Jesus.  She was embarrassed, and realized that for so many years,
Jesus had never been a part of her family's Christmas.

During the worship service, our pastor related how we must sometimes
really confuse children.  We have these nativity scenes of blond-haired
fair-skinned Mary's with Baby Jesus with a halo around his head and his
arms outstretched in an invitational pose, and there are winged angels
hanging from the roof of the stable.  It doesn't seem realistic, and must
seem to children as fictional as Santa Claus, yet we want them to know
the difference.  Somehow it seems more real to imagine the nativity with
Mary (looking a little more Middle-Eastern) showing signs of fatigue from
childbirth, and Joseph seeming a little more perplexed at the mystery
unraveling before his eyes.  And do angels even have wings?  The Christ-child
was probably tiny, red and wrinkled in reality, and probably crying after
his first few human gasps of air.

And so as I am becoming more aware of traditions (with a child in the house
for the first time), and wanting to start some of my own, I thought I would
pose this question:

What do you/your family do to include Christ in Christmas?  What do you do to
make the Nativity Story seem real for your children?

Now I am not talking about whether or not Santa is included in your Christmas
celebrations, because that is an old debate.  I am asking how you specifically
include Christ and teach the Nativity story to your children in such a way
that they understand it to be true.

Brenda
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:57:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Visit Colorado

<opinions.  He sends out tens of thousands of letters to people
<nationwide.  In this way, Rev. Wildmon actually gets a "petition" of
<thousands of names, stating that they (the American people) don't
<want this filth on public TV.  Only if the companies REFUSE to
<respond to the demands of the American people will an actual boycott
<be called.

Since when does Rev. Wildmon speak for "the American people"?  He has yet to
consult me on what I think is sickening.

<Remember, Hollywood is a MINORITY in this country.  I know so many
<parents who are not even Christians that are DISGUSTED with the
<trashy TV shows that air on prime-time television.  If the American
<people want to have a say in what kind of entertainment is provided
<for them on TV, this is a good way to do it.  The AFA's is a *nation
<wide* boycott of a MINORITY of people that control a public aspect of
<society.

Hollywwod hardly has a monopoly on the boycott.  Mayor Dinkins, for example, is
on the other coast.  A number of professional societies have stated their
intention to boycott as well.  The issue is on college campuses.  And of
course, Gay activists ared a nation wide group.

<However, the Colorado thing is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT situation!  First
<of all, the people in New York, California, Illinois, Montana, etc,
<have no right to "force" the people of Colorado to run their state a
<certain way!  THEY DON'T LIVE THERE!  IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS!

The people in NY, California, Illinois, Montana, etc. (I guess it isn't just
that HOLLYWOOD minority anymore... you might want to get your storey straight.)
have the right to do business with whom they choose for whatever reason they
choose.  I can shop where I choose.  It's called free enterprise.  Look it up.

<Second, it wasn't the "state" that decided; it was the *American
<people* living in Colorado that made the decision.  And now the
<minority NATION WIDE is boycotting the majority in one small state in
<hopes of forcing them into submission!  And they maybe can do it,
<because the minority nation wide is more powerful than the majority
<from one single state.   Don't you see how this goes DIRECTLY against
<the Constitutional rights of the American voter?  If the MAJORITY in
<Colorado can by forced into submission, against their will, then the
<entire democratic process is thwarted!  And the liberal activists are
<always SCREAMING about Constitutional rights!  BAH!  It's obvious to
<everyone in Colorado that the liberals care NOTHING about the
<Constitution unless it promotes THEIR views!

Coloradans have a Constitutional right to have people spend their money in
their state?  I think not.

Dan
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:39:00 -0700
From:         "John W. Woolley" <jww@EVOLVING.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Doctrines of Grace

Let me make a few comments, and a suggestion.

Every Christian believes in grace; and I suppose every school of
Christian thought has one or more doctrines concerning grace.  Every
Christian believes in God's sovereignty; and again, most of us could
formulate doctrines concerning it.  It is therefore not merely
presumptuous but an actual hindrance to communication for one group
to call their distinguishing doctrines by labels like "The Doctrine(s)
of Grace" or "a Belief in God's Sovereignty".

Consider this parallel.  Catholics (like all Christians) believe
that the saints have eternal life with God in heaven.  We (unlike
all Christians) conclude from that doctrine that it makes sense to
request the dead in Christ to pray for us.  Now, we can discuss this
question all we like (probably more than most of us like!), but
surely we can all agree that it would be counter-productive -- even
dishonest -- for us Catholics to start referring to our doctrine of
saintly intercession as "The Doctrine of Eternal Life", implying, by
our use of the phrase, that those who disagree with our beliefs on
this point in fact don't believe in eternal life.

When Calvinists use "The Doctrine of Grace" to mean what we (and
they) normally call "Predestination", it is misleading and unfair
in exactly the same way.  Christians all believe in Grace, in
Sovereignty, in God's foreknowledge; but all the rest of us --
Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists -- disagree with the
Calvinists' conclusions from those doctrines.

Let's stop doing this, OK?  Or pretty soon Roman Catholics will use
"Divine Authority" to mean the Papacy; and Mormons will imply that
to doubt Joseph Smith is to disbelieve in "Prophecy"; and various
sorts of Dispensationalists will refer to their particular theories
as a belief in "The Second Coming."  And before long we won't be
able to communicate at all.
----
Fr. John Woolley (jww@evolving.com); vastly enthusiastic about Augustine,
Austen, babies, Bach, backgammon, baseball, beer, the Bible, Botticelli, Burke,
Chesterton, Dante, Dixieland, hardboiled, Hitchcock, Dr Johnson, Latin, Mozart,
Shakespeare/de Vere, St Teresa, Tolkien, Trollope, Fats Waller, and Washington
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:31:08 CST
From:         Lonnie Schubert <S096556@UMRVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      Footnote to All Prayers

Many, including myself, have often pointed out just how important
it is to keep in mind what Paul was saying when he noted that
"We see through a glass darkly."  The included poem by C.S. Lewis
drives the point home with (IMO) more beauty, power, and humility
than anything I've heard or seen on the subject.  (And its not long. :-)

--- Footnote to All Prayers

He whom I bow to only knows to whom I bow
When I attempt the ineffable Name, murmuring *Thou*,
And dream of Pheidian fancies and embrace in heart
Symbols (I know) which cannot be the thing Thou art.
Thus always, taken at their word, all prayers blaspheme
Worshipping with frail images a folk-lore dream,
And all men in their praying, self-deceived, address
The coinage of their own unquiet thoughts, unless
Thou in magnetic mercy to Thyself divert
Our arrows, aimed unskillfully, beyond desert;
And all men are idolators, crying unheard
To a deaf idol, if Thou take them at their word.

Take not, oh Lord, our literal sense.  Lord, in Thy great,
Unbroken speech our limping metaphor translate.

                             C.S. Lewis, Poems, pg129

I hope it means something to all of you.

Lonnie
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From: EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET (Liz Moreau)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Prayer Request
Date: 16 Dec 92 13:53:54 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, North Dartmouth, MA, USA
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This is just another update on recent requests, and one new one.

My brother-in-law is still trying to find out just what his problem
is.  He has now been to five different docters and the diagnosis is
4-1 for an operation that will take 9 months to recover from.  He is
going to another docter on December 21st.

My mom is still waiting for the results of heart tests.  I feel that
no news is good news.

***********

Pray for my Dad, Richard.  He goes for a checkup in Boston tomorrow.
A couple of years ago he had several strokes and had an operation to
clear a clogged artery in his neck.  They only did one side and have
been watching the other side which is also bad.

My nephew David is 15 years old and will be 16 on January 13th.  He
has decided that he will be signing himself out of school.  If you all
remember I asked for prayer for his family because his parents are now
separated.  It is hitting all the children hard and David has become
sullen, resentful, and disrespectful.  I'm sure it is a direct result
of all the upheaval in his life.

Thanks!

                                                Liz
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:17:50 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Touching the Ark

Darren (kilroy, Dr N's S) writes about touching the Ark of the
Covenant, saying that, according to the accounts, stealing the Ark,
as the Philistines did, will not be punished severely, but touching
it or looking into it with good motives will.

The impression I get is that the Philistines were treated leniently
because, as pagans, they couldn't be expected to know any better. Of
the chosen people, more is expected (a point for us to keep in
mind). Incidentally, although it looks as though Uzzah had reverent
motives in touching the Ark, I see no indication that the men of
Beth-Shemesh did.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:15:42 EST
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayers

Shelby,


       God bless you!  I really missed your prayers when you were gone.
You are a wonderful witness for Christ.  I thank him for your perserverence
and your trust and faith in him.   God bless you and Gene.
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:01:25 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Candy Cane

Steven...

Thanks for the Candy Cane message.  I'm printing them up for
our youth group to include with the candy canes, card, etc
that they are giving to our church's shut-ins when they go
Christmas caroling.  A terrific witness to share with a small
rememberance!

Carol
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 08:08:17 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tools of the Deceiver (was Teaching children)

I appreciate the responses I had to what I shared last week. There was a great
deal of encouragement in what you shared.

I do want to clear up one thing, though. Darren Provine misunderstood the
content and essence of my message. I had said that "television, movies, music
and peer pressure" were tools used by the enemy to attract our children. In
no way was I referring to the "technology". We all understand that technology
is neutral, and can be used for good or for evil. What I was referring to
is the *industry*, not the technology. The godless entertainment industry
is propagating its own gospel every day on nearly every station. At the same
time, the children of this country are sitting passively in front of the tube
or glued to the "walkman", soaking up the values of this false world system.

   "To those who believe, no explanation is necessary . . .
        To those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice.

coen@acc.wuacc.edu
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 11:42:18 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Abusive relationships...

> Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1992 16:10:47 CST
> From: THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL%USMCP6.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Subject:      Abusive relationships...
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
>
> I know it has to be hard, as a Christian, to want to abide by the vows
> you take when you marry.  I'm not married, but I've seen this happen
> with a close friend.  If I remember correctly from what her brother
> told me, he said she divorced her "husband" due to some emotional
> abuse, and possibly some physical, I'm not entirely sure.

When considering that one's spouse has already broken the vows, and
even the commands set down in Ephesians 5, it becomes questionable who
*really* initiated the divorce proceedings.  Some would say that abuse
is sufficient grounds for divorce from a Biblical perspective.

                                                -->Dan Harling
                                                   harling@pictel.com
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 12:37:57 CST
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Setting "nomail" until 1/10/93.

I have to, gang.
I got here and mail folder was over full.
There are many tests, and other things that I must
do before Thursday at 5:00PM Central Standard
Time.
I wish for you all the most blessed Christmas
ever. Remember, it's not the gifts under the tree,
although they can be excellent sometimes...it's
the CHRIST CHILD'S BIRTH that we celebrate this
season.
Whether you're celebrating at home or with
friends, ...God Bless you all.
May the music of his Love surround each of you,
and may the joyous sounds of Christmas linger well
into next year.
Blessed New Year!
Theresa Blackwel
....(+l...)
"G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:47:38 EST
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Comments:     Resent-From: Julie Nott <STR008@UKCC.uky.edu>
Comments:     Originally-From: Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
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From:         Julie Nott <STR008@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Abusive relationships

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>Julie, is her counselor a Christian?  Her husband can definitely be
>changed thru the grace of our Lord.  I know that our Lord can heal him
>and bring good out of this situation.

 Her counselor is a christian but cannot claim to be a *Christian
 Counselor* as the husband's counselor can.  The difference is that
 his counselor shares scripture w/him and her's can't.  They will
 start going to *his* counselor when they start marriage counseling
 together.

>On the other hand, I feel a separation might give him time to really
>reflect on what is important and in the meantime protect her and the
>children from the emotional abuse.

 He is really coming a long way.  I think she's decided to stick
 around and weather it out.  He's *really* trying and the abuse is
 not as bad.  In fact he's really trying to lift her up these days.
 Boy, God is marvelous isn't he?  Like I'm telling you all something
 you don't already know, huh?

>Please let both of them know that people are lifting them up in
>prayer.

 She knows, but I'm not sure how he would react to people all over
 the world that he doesn't even know - knowing about how he has been.
 But, anyway, maybe his heart will soften!

>                                                Liz


Thanks to everyone for their wonderful insight.  It's really helped
me tremendously.  Keep it coming, and I will keep more updates coming too.

Julie Nott
Univ of KY
str008@ukcc.uky.edu
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:41:17 EST
From:         BENSON@POKVMCR3.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject:      re: Civil Rights? Why?

Michele,

I think the concern that many of us have is that we are afraid
that by passing a law such as this we are implicitly endorsing this
lifestyle.  On the contrary, many of us believe this lifestyle is an
affront to Almighty God.  While, personally, I believe sin, in general,
should not be a consdieration for employment, I think there are some
kinds of sin in some kinds of employment that are not acceptable.  For
instance, most of us would think that the sin of overimbibing, while not
illegal, is not a good match for the occupation of airline pilot.  In
much the same way, the sin of homosexuality is not a good match for the
occupation of school teacher.  And there are many other occupations that
it is not a good match for.  The fear is that the law is so broad that
we will have to hire homosexuals in positions that do not make sense
from a Christian point of view.  I do not want to have to hire a teacher
in our Christian school who teaches that homosexuality is a valid
alternative lifestyle.

Does that make sense?
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 08:11:06 CST
From:         William Jordan <JORDAN@LATECH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christmas Carols in Public Schools
              17 Dec 1992 14:43:14 EDT from <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL. EDU>

I agree with Leo that it is a shame that many public schools do not allow
Christmas carols to be sung, even though they may allow many other things
that we think are much worse.

I do want to encourage Leo that many public schools do allow Christmas carols
to be sung.  I have been to Christmas pageants for my two sons.  At both of
them both "secular" seasonal music and Christmas carols were sung.  More of
the secular ones were sung, than the Christmas carols, but the carols were
indeed sung.

Many of these "so-called rules" against recognizing the existence of holidays
such as Christmas are the result of civil lawsuits against local school boards.
I live in a consrvative part of the country, where no-one has ever complained
against such things.  Therefore they continue to exist.

While many schools may have banned talk or singing about God, here in the deep
South, many of these traditions are continued.

I hope that what I have shared may encourage some people, like Leo, who thought
no public schools could sing Christmas carols.  Unfortunately, most of you do
not live in such conservative areas as mine, and many of these nice traditions
cannot be recognized in your school.

In Christ, Bill

William M. Jordan            Voice       (318) 257-4304
Mechanical & Industrial      FAX         (318) 257-2562
     Engineering Dept.       Bitnet      jordan@latech.bitnet
Louisiana Tech University    Internet    jordan@engr.latech.edu
Ruston, LA 71272
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