From: abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Germans and Jews
Date: 28 Jan 93 13:03:31 EST
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1993Jan27.214034.14097@compu.com>, fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from 
home) writes:
> abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu writes:
> 
> This post...  no, let me be kind and not say it.

Don't be kind! We are talking about to horrible things! If you want to say smth
- say it, and don't worry about my feelings (if it is what you are worried
about).

> Let me rather attempt to keep facts on the table and attempt to assume the 
> above is simply too much naivete about history.

Good idea.

> First let us talk about German military losses.  In round numbers 4,600,000
> husbands, fathers and sons lost their lives during WWII. Of those 2/3 were 
> killed in the East, mainly the USSR. At the end of the war, excluding 
> Volkssturm and other temporary 'passthru' prisoners, there were 11,100,000  
> men in allied POW camps. Of those roughly 3,100,000 were being held in Russia.
> 35.8% of these died in those camps. That is 1,100,000 POWs. They were simply 
> worked to death as our correspondent says, as bullets were a needless 
> expense.

Not exactly. They starved too. My mother (she was 9 years old by the end of the
war recalles. That German POWs always begged for bread. I never said that
Russians were especially good for Germans, that these behaviour should be
excused and so on. 

> The first significant number of POWs came into Russian hands in Jan '43 after 
> Stalingrad. 

By that time Russians were *really* starving themselves. And it was true during
all years when German POWs were in Russia.
 
> [...] At the foreign minister's conference in 1947 Molotov claimed that 
> 890,532 POWs were still being held in Russia.  It means that almost a million
> soldiers died after the war was over.

He lied. He always lied. I don't know the actual number, but I am sure that
Molotov lied.

> On the other hand Russian POWs were taken from the first days of the invasion 
> of the USSR in vast numbers.  They too died in huge numbers of starvation and 
> the actions of the Einsatztruppen. There can be no excuse for even one POW to 
> be purposely killed, yet the German troops in the east were starving 
> themselves.

It is not true. The largest Russian Armies surrendered in the battle for Minsk
(Minsk was taken on 29 of June 1941) and in the battle for Kiev (Kiev was taken
in the end of September 1941 - 600,000 POWs according to German's data). 
Germans were far from starving in June, and they never starved in Ukraine. They
began to have "problems" with food supplies in the end October in the Center 
(in Moscow direction) and in the North (Leningrad) because supply lines became 
too long and there were no food in that area. However do you know that 1941 was
one of the best years for the crops in Ukraine? Also actually in my example I
told you about POW camp near Kiev, which was closed in December 1941 when
almost everybody died because Germans did not only "forget" to feed POWs, but
also prohibited food pacels from relatives. Ukarine suffered a lot under
Stalin. According to evidences many Ukraineans greeted German soldiers in 1941.
How come there were a lot of partisans in 1942? Hitler was too sure in quick 
victory in 1941. Lets say it: conditions in Germany and occupied territories 
were much better then conditions in Russia in 1943-1947. However the most part
of German POWs returned home and the most part of Russian POWs died in a few
monthes after surrender.
   
> When such numbers are added to the 20 million that the Russians themselves 
> killed plus all of the KIA during the war, it cut a swath thru just about
> every Russian family just as it did just about every German family.

According to your accounts 5.5 millions Germans died during the war and in
Siberia. That will give smth like 6.5%. According the last estimates 27
millions citizens of the USSR died during WW2. It is about 14.2%. This just for
information. I am not trying to tell anything by these figures.

> But now let us look at the behavior of the Red Army. [...] He said: 'My 
> father wrote that they had taken a cow from us. Now we are even.'

Behavior of Red Army in Germany is shameful. However don't forget that by 1942
German army occupied territory on which lived 40% of the population of the
USSR. When Red Army took it back, soldiers found out that these territory lied
in ruins and millions of their rellatives were murdered. Of course they wanted
revenge! These are not excuses, but "explanations". German Army didn't have
them. 

> Under the guidance of Ilya Ehrenburg millions of leaflets were dropped for 
> the advancing Russian forces. "Soldiers of the Red Army! Kill the Germans! 
> Kill the Germans! Kill! Kill! Kill!" they said. And the army went to work.

I quoted this slogan in one of my previous postings. It was very popular even
in 1982. It was in my textbook. There are no excuses for such people as
Ehrenburg. 

> The German Wehrmacht in no way can be compared with the actions of the 
> advancing Russian troops. The Einsatztruppen and certain SS Divisions yes, 
> but not the army in general.  Even the best trained and elite armored 
> spearheads took up the call for genocide against the Germans. 

If it would be a case then *believe me* German losses in WW2 would be *much*
larger then just 4.6 millions. Russian Army in 1945 was easily able to wipe out
20 millions Germans.

 
> Then a counter terror started which put many Russian soldiers in
> front of a firing squad for even minor infractions.  Life was very cheap.

Have you ever heard about shooting German soldiers which killed Jews or Russian
POWs? Or such things didn't ever happen?
And again comparisons with the USSR is not a thing to be proud about. 

                              Cordially

                            Victor Abkevich