HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Fencing (was Re: Thinkwell; Drachenwald ideas; Alternate Crown Types)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:34:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan04.195259.1696@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!  Hal wrote:
>
>>  Fencing is practically unheard of [in the West]...  The opinions on the
>> subject of some of the local Chivalry are also 'interesting'.  :-)
>
>This is a good point at which to ask a question that's puzzled me for some
>time: Why does anyone object to fencing as an activity in the SCA?  No one
>is trying to force them to do it; why should they object if someone else
>does it?

Odder than you think.  There has been sporadic fencing activity here
off and on (mostly off--as it is at present) for over 20 years.
Various of the founders of the SCA were led to experiment with sword
and shield as a side-line to being fencers and at least one Western
Count is also a competition fencer.

>I can imagine a couple answers, but they don't seem to me to explain the
>rabid opposition to the sport that we've seen (to the point of its having
>been outlawed in some kingdoms; I do not know if such laws still exist).
>
>(1) It doesn't fit the medieval world we are trying to re-create.  

I think this is a major part of it.  While we have our fair share of
'late Period' folks, there are a lot of people here with a quite early
focus--by which I mean pre-1000.  While fencing is certainly
technically in period, it doesn't go (so far as I know) all *that* far
back.

>(2) The fencers want to change the rules of the game.
>
>From time to time we do hear someone arguing for a "fencing crown", but
>(with respect to the honorable fencers) I've not heard it taken seriously
>even in the fencing community.  In this regard, my experience is very
>limited; can anyone give me a broader perspective?  In any case, Corpora
>clearly states that fencing cannot be used as part of Crown Tourney or
>anything similar, so the point is moot. 

I think the fact that it's mentioned specifically in Corpora should be
viewed as a tip-off.  In general, i've found that you can read the
history of an organization in it's rules...  There are periodic
efforts to fit both fencing and archery into the SCA's Peerages.
Setting aside the argument that *that* structure is out of period, it
appears that the Chivalry do not consider fencing to be comparable to
SCA heavy list--a point that I wouldn't care to argue very loudly.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)

Nothing in this missive constitutes an act or opinion of the Lord High
Constable of the Kingdom of the West unless otherwise explicitly stated.
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Annual Xmas Depression; moan, weep, gnash
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:19:43 GMT

Mikjal and I are having a public conversation: (M=Mikjal, T=Tibor)

  =-=-=-=
T>The East Kingdom does not have standard oaths, so our former Principality
T>has never been burdened by them.  Hey, while your at it Mikjal, throw
T>off *your* yoke...

M>BTW, one of my projects as baronial herald for the upcoming year is to
M>replace all of the ceremonial oaths used by Three Rivers with ones based
M>on medieval models.  Slowly, the yoke is being removed...

T>Excellent, I am impressed.  Does anyone have evidence that prewritten
T>ceremonial oaths are more or less period that individualistic oaths?
T>Oh, where is Sheik Hossein when we need him (I'm sending him a copy of
T>this question in email...)  I just wanna know which is more authentic:
T>I have no idea.  As usual, I'll bet the answer is "Where and when are
T>you asking about?".

So Sheik Hossein wrote me a "top of the head" response, and lo, I may
be mistaken!  I don't have permission to quote his words directly,
but to paraphrase:
  The majority of surviving oaths are very formulaic, consistent within
  a single time and place.  This may be an artifact of the surviving
  evidence, but logic and understanding incline him to disbelieve
  that as the case.  "[...] but I'm hard pressed to recall even
  anecdotally a medieval oath which isn't formulaic and apparently
  standardized."

  Supporting information included the Carolingian era, the Oath of
  Salisbury, the Assize of Clarendon, Charles V, and even the
  Oath of Strasburg.  He was quick to point out that this was not
  a researched answer, and that "I've never done a systematic
  study."

So, from Sheik Hossein's knowledge, it seems it would be more
authentic to have a book of ceremonies, and perform them. Or,
at least, be consistent within each reign.

So, who wants to write "Medieval Oaths for All Occasions"? 

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)
Subject: Re: Name - Rialto
Organization: Shire of Glaedenfeld
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:04:49 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Jeremy de Merstone writeth:
> of water meant "deep". So it meant "deep stream" or maybe "high stream-bank".
> I haven't seen a reference which ventures to decide between the two, but
> the stream in question is Venice's Grand Canal, which runs along the

Venice was built on small muddy islands.  It hath no high bank.  How
ever, the Gran Canale is the main channel of a river emptying into the
Adriatic Sea (Venice is the delta) and may well run full deep.
--
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
From: Longshot@f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Clan Conner
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1993 12:57:22

lo'
   I am looking for any information on how I might get in touch with the
head of the Clan Conner, in the Kingdom of the East (?, New Jersey).
   I am looking to trade some information with him.

                                                      ~ Aindries


... rising falling at force ten, we twist the world and ride the wind
 * Origin: Calontir -- We Deliver. (1:291/19.0)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: "Michael Squires" <mikes@cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: period firearms
Summary: no, period firearms are more dangerous
Keywords: firearms
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 00:51:53 -0500

In article <pa142548.621.726252148@utkvm1.utk.edu> pa142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>
>Do we not have this already:  many of us manufacture bows, arrows, swords, 
>and knives.  These are also possibly dangerous products.

I talked with a Williamsburg gunsmith some time ago and he said that although
they could build guns with forge welded barrels as was done in the 18th 
century they refused to do it for sale, as it was impossible to be certain
that the barrel would not explode later as a crack propagated with age and
stress.

In the 16th century iron cannon were very hard to sell, as they were well
known to be dangerous.  The British were the first to figure out how to
make fairly reliable cast iron cannon, but they still blew up from time
to time, even after proof testing.  This continued into the American
Civil War (I remember a picture of a Union adminral being killed when
a Parrott cannon blew up).

The failure mode for firearms is unlike those for arrows, swords, and knives;
the closest would be prod failure on a high-powered crossbow, but even then
the damage would be much more limited.

-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: amw@gandalf.math.columbia.edu (Winkler)
Subject: Announcement of activities
Organization: Mathematics Department, Columbia University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:16:36 GMT
Distribution: ny
X-Posted-From: gandalf.math.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Is there a newsgroup that carries announcements of activities? Thanks.
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Whew! Somethin's 'appenin'!
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:16:03
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se's message of Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:07:34 GMT


vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:
] I wonder if you gentles are aware of what has happened in this forum
] over the last 8 months or so: we are now discussing ideas which would
] have caused major resentment among many Rialtans only a short time ago.
] Take for instance Tadhg's recent words:
]
] >A cultural mishmash that would never have appeared at any time or place in
] >period is not "research and re-creation in the field of pre-17th-century
] >Western culture", nor does it "create an environment which evokes the
] >atmosphere of the Middle Ages and Renaissance".
]
] >It does, of course, create an environment which evoke the atmosphere of a
] >fantasy novel that might be *loosely based* on the Middle Ages and
] >Renaissance, or a similar movie, but that's not what it SAYS -- nor, I
] >maintain, what it MEANS.
]
] Whew! Something must have happened here. Are we prepared to actually
] consider the possibility that the SCA as such might need an upgrade?
] Or am I walking with my head in a cloud of glogg foam? :-)

People are tired of argueing about it. Some people never seem to
"get it" : that their own personal view of what the SCA should
be isn't shared by the majority of the people who make up the SCA,
nor by the governing bodies of the SCA. People who do "get it"
get tired of trying to enlighten those who don't after a few months.

I find the SCA intellectually, emotionally and physically fulfilling.
I can and do learn and share learning at SCA functions. I can and do
make friends at SCA functions. I can and do dance and sing and wack
people over the head with a stick at SCA functions. What could be
better than that ? 

So I don't think the SCA needs an upgrade. But then, I'm a member of
the Barony of Twin Moons in the glorious Kingdom of Atenvedt. You may
not be that lucky : you may have snobs and cliques and nasty politics
and power mongers low moral in your group. I, as I said, am lucky.

Lord Buri Dogshin, unrepentant Mongol !    (Boo-ree Doag-sheen)
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: lindal@goddess.asd.sgi.com (Linda Levy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lilies VII
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:53:50 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.


In article <MAILQUEUE-101.930111104634.736@saturn.uark.edu>,
PAULB@saturn.uark.EDU ("Paul A. Byers") writes:
|> War of the Lilies VII
|> Known World War
|> Date: June 14-21, 1993
|> Site: Smithville Lake
|> 25 miles north of Kansas City, MO
|> 
> 
|> Site opens  9:00 a.m. Monday, June 14th
|> Site Closes Monday, June 21st 11:00 a.m.
|> Friday night Calontir will sponsor a feast
|> for everyone at the war!

Greetings

I know scheduling is difficult when you get this many Kingdoms together,
but this seems to be scheduled opposite the West kingdoms Crown Tournement.
So the best won't be there. How did this happen?

linda of the lakelands
lindal@asd.sgi.com
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lilies VII
Date: 12 Jan 1993 17:32:15 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <C0psrC.Izu@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck) writes:
>In article <1993Jan11.175350.14702@odin.corp.sgi.com> lindal@goddess.asd.sgi.com (Linda Levy) writes:
>
[Howcome they scheduled the Known World War to conflict with West Crown
Tourney??]

>Undoubtedly an Eastern plot.

What probably HAPPENED is that (a) it's their traditional date for holding
Lillies and (b) they assumed, hey, everybody holds Crown Lists and Coronation
in spring and fall, right?  Right--except for the West, where we hold
Crown Lists in spring, summer, and fall, and Coronations spaced sort of
equidistant in between.

Well, as the hippies used to say, if by chance we find each other, it's
beautiful.  If not, it can't be helped.


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kellogg@teal.csn.org (Patrick Kellogg)
Subject: Re: antipathy to fencing
Summary: rejoiner to Graydon :)
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 05:25:46 GMT


Well, without getting into those long boring conversations about the
authenticity of SCA fencing (it's a religion, it really is) I'd like to say:
I dropped out of collegiate fencing because SCA fencing was much closer to
the true feel of the weapons used in the 1600's. The is a "right of way" in
collegiate fencing, which never made sense to me. He/She stabbed my arm a
second before I skewered his/her chest and I'M the LOSER?
I love to circle my opponent, use a cloak, an offhand weapon, and fight from
my knees (which I do often 'cause I'm also slow)
I was bummed I couldn't fence in the Middle Kingdom, and I'm much happier in
the outlands (Denver) thank you very much! Hey, not everybody HAS to be a
fencer, but let those of us have fuin, study the sport, write papers and do
research and _contribute_ to the SCA. Please?

 _   _   _   _   _   _   _   _  _ kellogg@csn.org
(_)_(_)_(_)_(_)_(_)_(_)_(_)_(_) - EREIAMJH the
  (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) ghost in the machine

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: New Year's Resolutions
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:49:02 GMT

  Or, do any kingdoms actually have sumptuary laws in the Kingdom Law? 
  There have been claims, but I don't recall precise citations?

The Eastern laws have almost none.  There is a description of a token
that holders of the Queen's Cypher may bear, but the law sort of fails
to prohibit others from that right.

We have customs, though....  lots of them.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Eulogy for Axel Bandit
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:24:31 GMT

In article <93007.173616JJ9262A@auvm.american.edu> John A. Jordan Ii. <JJ9262A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>It shall be noted in the Book of Life that Axel the Bandit, intolerant
>SCA wannabe with too much time on his hands has decided to unsubscibe
>from the Rialto.  He will not be missed.

I'm afraid that I cannot share the sentiments.  Clearly Axel did not
feel welcome--and that would appear to be largely (though not
exclusively) due to his own past actions and current expectations--but
simply to dust off our hands and say 'good riddance' is to put
ourselves in the wrong as well.

The SCA does not appeal to everyone--nor should it.  I would prefer,
however, that those who came to the SCA and decided not to stay at
least be able to leave with a positive feeling about the Society.

Axel can, at this point, do us harm through negative publicity and
word-of-mouth comments.  *That* is our fault.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)

Nothing in this missive constitutes an act or opinion of the Lord High
Constable of the Kingdom of the West unless otherwise explicitly stated.
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: hjfeld@acs.bu.edu (harold feld)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Are you a Rialto Geek?
Date: 7 Jan 93 00:09:22 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov, a few supplementary
questions occurred to me:

>In article <105938@bu.edu> hjfeld@acs.bu.edu (harold feld) writes:
>
>>Give yourself one point for every time you've seen the following
>>thread:

Give yourself a bonus point for each one of these now in your kill file.

Give yourself a bonus point for being a member of the SSS

Double if you no longer qualify

Foolishly,
Yaakov


From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Monthly Consultant List
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1993 22:43:04

 DA> We are still looking for more volunteer consultants - we 
 DA> being myself who posts
 DA> this thing, and cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu who maintains it.

 Please put me down also under "Other - Medieval Church". I realize that
 Christianity is not Politically Correct in the SCA but there may be some
 unsuspecting soul out there who actually wants to find out something about
 the Middle Ages, and toward that end an understanding of medieval
 Christianity is essential. (You might also put Hossein down for Islam,
 same way, since Islamic ideas had a great deal of impact, and the conflict
 between Islamic culture and Christian culture had even more).

    Tadhg

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pt 2/2: The Period Calendar you've been wanting
Date: 6 Jan 93 17:22:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.726429047.AA00000

Do you know anything of non-Catholic calendar practices in the major SCA
cultures in period?

Moreach


 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Subject: theme garb
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:56:26 GMT

Angharad writes:

>(a) Theme events work best if more people are dressed appropriately
>than not.  As things stand, to "play along" in _that_ way in Atlantia,
>you need two extra outfits: one Elizabethan, one Italian Ren (assuming
>you didn't already have either one).  In a year or two, it's not hard
>to pick up both.  BUT -- if theme events became the norm, and covered,
>say, ten times and places rather than two -- hey, that's more sewing
>than _I'm_ going to do....  

It seems that there's a "simple" solution to this: most people who
have a particular persona have more than one outfit.  (I have about
four pieces of Japanese garb)  Certainly Gold Key has more than enough
garb to outfit a large number of people who don't want to make
one-shot garb, especially if they solicit help from those who _have_
the appropriate garb in quantity (and there must be a few, since
otherwise who would be running the event...?).  

Fujimoto
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dollar Cost of Awards
From: pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 05:00:13 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <C0Fwxw.GrM@panix.com> ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.104613.26703@latcs1.lat.oz.au> pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears) writes:
[my original stuff excerpted to save electrons]

>	Granted there is a some cost in giving classes and holding workshops
>- I have extras of almost anything solely for the purpose of lending (some of
>which I haven't seen in years). On the other hand the bulk of the cost is in
>the materials you use for your own projects, most of which (with the exception
>of scribes - but that's another discussion) are for your own use. I have no
>idea how much I have spent over the years on things like loom and accessories,
>spinning wheels and other tools, not even counting fabric and thread. It's 
>probably in the $4000 range too (and I'm not counting camping equipment). On 
>the other hand, I never thought of it as an investment in an award - this is
>stuff I'd be doing anyway, the SCA is just a place to find other fiber artists
>and an excuse to make stuff I wouldn't otherwise have any place to wear :)

OK so a large part of it is personal fulfilment.
I agree that I would almost certainly have bought all those
things anyway, I also see the SCA as just a good place to show off
what I make.
However, if I was going to target an award of some sort I would
still need to buy the stuff to do the things properly.
Why should this be any different for period archery?

>	If I choose to buy linen or silk instead of cotton or rayon, it's 
>because I want to wear those fibers (being a fiber fondler the difference is
>very obvious to me) not because it will get me a laurel. I guess my point is
>that the investment is a purely personal thing, and if you keep a narrow
>focus instead of spreading yourself out over every craft and century, the 
>cost isn't so great. Obviously, some crafts are more expensive than others,
>but if all you want is to be a laurel, you can choose one with a low overhead.
>You can be a bobbin lace laurel for about $80 in materials (but watch out for
>those workshops), or under $20 for needle lace. 

I suspect the time investment here is huge though, and
as Bertram points out, you also need to travel to events so
that your achievements will be noticed.
Visibility is necessary.
I suppose my point was if you like archery enough to bother with it
in the SCA why not put money and time into it just like anyone
in another field?


Arenwald.
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept		ACSNET : pears@latcs1.oz
La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.			"Well here we all are then."
    Ph (03) 479-1144						-ME
From: sherman@trln.lib.unc.EDU ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Subject: nalebinding
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:39:38 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.

I ran across nalebinding a few months ago, while researching 
fingerweaving (also known as flat braidind).  The following reference, 
as I remember, had very nice photographs that I thought at the time 
looked clear enough to learn from -- nalebinding, as well as other 
techniques.

Author:        Nordland, Odd, 1919-
Title:         Primitive Scandinavian textiles in knotless netting. [Oslo] Oslo
                 University Press [c1961]
Description:   154 p. illus., maps (1 fold) 23 cm.

Series:        Studia Norvegica no. 10.

Notes:         Bibliography: p. 150-154.

Subjects:      Textile fabrics -- Scandinavia.
               Sprang.

The reference is from MELVYL, by the way, accessible via TELNET at 
melvyl.ucop.edu.  And they have recently enabled mail forwarding of 
search results -- once you're connected there, enter HELP MAIL and 
follow directions.

*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Dennis R. Sherman  	         Triangle Research Libraries Network *
* dennis_sherman@unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca