HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Subject: Re: Odd Fellows
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:21:30 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.215452.5254@vicorp.com> ron@vicorp.com (Ron Peterson) writes:
>
>Anyone ever heard of a club/society called "Odd Fellows"?  I've seen
>their signs (in odd places) in various cities and wondered what they
>were up to.
>ron@vicorp.com or uunet!vicorp!ron

The Odd Fellows (well, technically, the Independent Order of Odd Fellows,
IOOF) used to be the second largest fraternal order in the US, right 
after the Freemasons.  They came out of the same basic matrix (i.e.,
medieval craft guilds) at about the same time; I think the first mention
of the Odd Fellows is in an essay of Defoe's from about 1745.  Like the
Masons, they do elaborate initiation ceremonies, and there are a series
of degrees -- nine of them in the current Order, if I'm remembering
correctly.
The Order was pretty well moribund until a couple of years ago; the local
lodge here in Seattle was down to seven members, the youngest of them
70, and the rest of the Order was in pretty similar shape.  Over the
last two years or so, a few of the lodges in the Northwest have started
getting new members on a fairly large scale.  (The Seattle lodge has
gone from 7 to 58 members.)  I don't know if it's going on anywhere else,
but I've heard that the Orcas Island, WA, and Corvallis, OR lodges are
doing well also.
As for being esoteric...there's not much I can say about the rituals
(I don't especially approve of oaths of secrecy, but I keep my word when
it's given), but the purposes of the Order are more charitable than
anything else.  I suspect that most of the current members would be
quite shocked if someone suggested that there was something "occult" in
the IOOF.  At the same time, though, the symbolism can definitely be
used as a basis for meditative and visionary work, and the rituals are
quite impressive in their own way.  If anyone's interested in the IOOF
as a basis for that kind of working, I'd highly encourage it.
(Note, however, that the IOOF is a males-only organization -- it has a
"women's auxiliary" like Eastern Star, the Rebekahs -- and belief in a 
Supreme Being is one of the requirements of membership.  Depending on 
the lodge, also, the old guys can be extremely hostile to anything
post-Norman Rockwell.:)  So it's not all roses.)
If there's anyone else out there who's in the IOOF, or interested in same,
drop me a line via email!

                                      -- John Michael Greer
                                         grimoire@u.washington.edu
From: god@cats.ucsc.edu (Daniel Andrew Osher)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Odinism Help for Newbie
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:52:42 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


Oh! I thought he meant Onanism...


(Yes, I am joking.)
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:51:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Possible to Obtain magic powers>?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

>
>There is already several RPG that have such a system.  GURPS has a system
>where each spell is learned seperitly with seperit skill levels for each 
>spell.  Shadowrun has something simular.  They both do not had the spell-
>caster froget the spell after they cast it, more realistic IMHO.  However
>they both have a limiting facter on the spellcasters so one doesn't cast
>fireballs all day.  
>
>Personaly I am glad that some of these fantisy spells do not execst.  Can 
>you imagen a squad of spellcasters at the beck and call of a goverment?
>Not a nice imige.
>
>The Stranger
>
Sometimes I find it possible to believe that there are people who think
a spell-checker is an RPG playing aid for advanced wizards :-(

Colin
Organization: Freshman, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 02:06:23 -0400 
From: Shawn Clayton Knight <sk4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
	<Bs6npv.HKq@news.cso.uiuc.edu>

>Hmmm, from what little I've read about Chaos, I think that that is one of the
>main points of Chaos.  One should not just accept what someone else has handed
>you, as if magic was a cookie recipe.  I believe that the Chaos approach is
>for each individual to work our hir own stuff, and to keep flexible with that.
>Chaos isn't real into form, from what little I've seen.

Right.  Form is up to the individual taste in my interpretation/working
of chaos.

> 
>Any Chaosers care to comment?

I just did :)

-shawn

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark Peterson)
Subject: Re: BLACK CROWS
Originator: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Reply-To: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:38:08 GMT

From article <62615@cup.portal.com>, by Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva):
> 9207.22 e.v.
> 

[...]

> I am I!

C'mon Tagi -- no you aren't....



hiho
-- 
mark ce peterson   | uw-washington county  | hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu 
dept of philosophy | west bend, wi.  53095 | (414) 335-5200        

     The shorter the tether, the sooner the goat starves.
From: shaman@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (David Melton)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Real magick in RPG's
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:46:06 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <49fm2x@lynx.unm.edu> cipher@lacerta.unm.edu (Rev. J. B. Bell) writes:
>So far I have figured that magickal ability can conveniently be
>reduced to three relevant statistics on which one can base die rolls
>and additional, more specific skills:
>
>1.  Attunement.  How "at one" you are with a god, the Universe or Tao,
>Chaos, etc. 
>This affects the power of magickal work, and
>influences and is influenced by the personality of a mage. 
>It is a general state of being.  It tends to manifest as luck.
>
>2.  Focus/Lock/Meditate/Gnosis ability.        ...It
>represents the ability to transcend ordinary reality and get into
>contact or union with nonordinary states.  
>
>3.  Ego/Personal Power.  This is the extent to which a mage is a
>universe unto themself.
>This power can be used more easily than that gained
>by being very Attuned. 
>It is more
>physically and mentally draining to use this power than to invoke
>power from other planes or gods, and its effects are usually less
>spectacular.
>
My question is this:  Do these three FRP characteristics also represent an
essential core of real-world magick?  With the addition of Will, are these
three attributes ALL that is necessary to perform magick?  

It also seems to me that 1 and 3 above are inversely related.  While both
represent valid sources of power, it is uncommon that both are used in the same
magickal work.  If a mage has developed one attribute, the other is often seen
as unnecessary.  I also question your claim that the effects of Ego based
magick are less spectacular.  Since the power comes from within, the mage is
allowed more complete control of the power.  This often allows the mage to ac-
complish greater feats than would be possible with more uncontrolled power
sources.

Attribute 2 above seems to relate to the extent to which the mage acts in
accordance with his/her true Will.  As such, it could vary considerably given
different circumstances.  I question whether this can be expressed as an 
absolute, unchanging value.

There are also interesting possibilities for this framework in training
students.  Each attribute can be developed independently from the others, based
on the needs of the student and the predisposition of the instructor.  It
helps clarify the areas in which growth can proceed.

Enough said for now.  Any commentary or further discussion is welcomed.

Blest be thee and thine-
Shaman
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Angels
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 13:12:34 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS, New Orleans, LA

harris@drvax3.msfc.nasa.gov (Mitch Harris) writes:

> I'm not sure if this is the right group to post in, but here goes:
> Has anyone read " A Book of Angels", & if so, do you believe in them?
> Has anyone had an experience which might be construed as an encounter
> with angels?
> Thanks!
> 
> 
>        (Posted for Beverly H.)
> 
> --
> Mitch Harris                           |  New Technology Inc.
> (205)-544-2846                         |  700 Boulevard South, #401
> drvax3!harris@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov    |  Huntsville, AL  35802
> 

I've seen the book you've mentioned in the store and have flipped through 
it, but I haven't bought it or really sat down to read it.  

I do indeed believe in angels, in particular the Archangels who represent 
the four elements.  While I've never had an experience that I'd call a 
'encounter' with an angel, I do visualizatins of the Archangels, and sense 
their presence in the element they represent.  I've also felt at times a 
reassuring presence that could well be a Guardian Angel, though it's been 
nothing more than a reassuring feeling, not a real 'encounter'.



>Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us<
>Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087<
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Possible to Obtain magic powers>?
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:48:45 GMT

jds2@po.CWRU.Edu (John D. Specht) writes:

: (They're ganging up on me! Fr. Negris, comments?)

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you! :)

: Um, that's an interesting way to look at the situation, and I can't argue it 
: except I don't have any memory of "accepting the limitation of the flesh" at 
: any time, so I'm wondering if maybe I was drunk at the time.

I realize that this a circular argument, but just because you don't remember
doesn't mean it didn't happen.  There *are* ways of bringing this information
out.

: How did you discover these rules? Again I would argue that what you have found
: to be your truth may be not so true for those not sharing all of your
: previous experiences.

It is one of several common themes running through (1) NDEs, (2) regressive
hypnosis sessions, and (3) most ancient religious texts.

: >Killing will generate a large amount of disharmonious karma.  Kissing her, in
: >some circumstances, may also generate disharmonious karma.
: 
: If a man has roamed the country, doing much bodily harm for some time, and 
: I have an opportunity to end this destruction, I will. I consider the 'karma'
: (if you want to call it that) of the world, rather than my own, and in fact,
: I would benefit from that act, having made the world a better place.

I don't want to get into a long-winded discussion of karma, since this
more properly belongs on talk.religion.newage.  Tibetans believe that
*any* killing, justified or not, beings undesirable karma on the perpetrator,
while Buddhism (and several other religious) do not.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG		erc@apple.com	<-- preferred email address!
"In wildness is the preservation of the world."  - Henry David Thoreau
** Member, Linux port team - uucp division ** :)   801/269-8125
From: majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu (Salamander~)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:07:07 GMT
Organization: UB

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

[...babble deleted...]

>IMO, forms without context are forms without power.

I _dare_ you to look a Chaos Magickian in the eye and say that...

No smiley,
Marc

-- 
  majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu     *  The meek shall inherit the earth,   *
    Rev. M @P.O. Box 156             and the wise keep moving on...
     Amherst, NY  14226        *   The Earth is our Mother, but how   *
    Voice: (716) 834-1648       many of us still live with our mother?
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The art of tarot
Summary: Voyager pretty, but doesn't work for me.
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:46:22 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <21JUL199212061488@jane.uh.edu>, chem8w@jane.uh.edu (Councilman, David A.) writes:
> I currently have both Rider/Waite and Tavaglione's Stairs of Gold, and
> someday plan to get Thoth.  I also have a deck I havent heard any mention
> of:  Voyager.  Any comments on this deck?  Each card, in both Minor and
> Major Arcanum, is a collage of pictures reflecting the basic 'mood' of the 
> suit and card.  It seems to be, compared to Tavaglione, at least, your basic
> politically correct, environmentally-conscious, incapable-of-offending-
> any-belief-system-or-mindset deck. I enjoy it when Im in "that sort" of
> mood.  
> 
> It's also great at parties. =)
Here is the opinion of someone who is relatively new to the use of
oracles, and the magick I practise is love and the pursuit of
awakening and enlightenment.
I find personally that the Voyager deck doesn't work for me.  I have
been reading for about 5 years, and find that what counts more than
anything is how a given deck feels to you. The symbolism doesn't
really matter all that much, as long as it provides an encompassing
set of symbols for the various processes we find in life. 
I usually come back to some deck that reflects the Rider-Waite 
symbolism, but each card has come to
have it's own meaning for me, independent of what AEW or anybody else
may have to say about its meaning.  My personal recommendation for a
beginner, that hasn't yet found a deck that really talks to them, is
to try the Mythic Tarot, by Juliet Sharman-Burke and Tricia Newell.
That is of course, if the beginner in question is a little familiar
with Greek mythology.  It's strongest feature is that each minor
arcana suit follows the story of some myth, providing a convenient
internal structure and consistency.  I learned to read the cards by
reading a wide variety of books, and doing many readings, first for
myself, and then, when I couldn't be objective (relatively) with
myself, for anyone else that was moderately interested.  In this way,
I internalized my meaning of each card, which evolved with each
reading. A bad reading feels like trying to interpret abstract poetry.
In a good reading, no matter what I thought a card meant before, the
interpretation pops in my head and rolls off my tongue like I was a
psychic gumball machine, usually surprising me, and I always trust it
when I get that feeling. It works the same way with Runes, or using a
regular deck of playing cards, or reading palms, or whatever.  Always,
it is just a prop which allows you to give a structure to your psychic
impressions. This is all of course IMHO and experience.  I've gotten
some fun and enlightenment this way, and hope this note helps you find
some of the same in any way you want.

I love you all, whether you like it or not.
			Lorenzo

farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:22:26 EDT

 Hello,

 B.A. quotes _Magick_in_Theory_and_Practice_.  [quotes deleted]

 Just for everyone's info, the passage I had in mind was on page 6:

 "For the greatest danger of this magical theory is that the student may
  mistake the alphabet for the things which the words represent."

 "An excellent man of great intelligence, a learned Qabalist, once amazed
  the Master Therion by stating that the Tree of Life was the framework of
  the Universe.  It was as if some one had seriously maintained that a cat
  was a creature constructed by placing the letters C.A.T. in that order."

> IMO, it only works if you already are programmed with it.  I hope
> this clarifies my intention.

 Sure.  Crowley seems to have taken a lot of his G.D. training for granted.

>> On a semi-related note, I have a question about the version of the Middle
>> Pillar ritual B.A. posted.  Does anyone know where the god-name for Daath
>> came from?  It's not supposed to have any correspondences as such, right?
>
> I was wondering about this myself...does anyone know?  Oh, and the color
> too. it is the same as Yesod in this exercise.  That seems strange to me.

 Well, there are parallels between Daath and Yesod.  See Colin's notes for
 more verification of that.

 I like to think of the tree as sort of being seen from 2 perspectives:
 our conscious "ego" sees it as it is commonly drawn, but the "Holy
 Guardian Angel" (translate however you wish) sees it upside down.  Our
 Daath is his/her/its Yesod, and so on.  That's why the Knowledge and
 Conversation takes place in Tiphareth - its the only sefira the 2
 'entities' share.  This also may imply the existence of 2 other sephiroth
 between the ego's Malkuth and Yesod (to correspond to the HGA's Binah
 and Chokmah.  I've seen descriptions of an 'outer abyss' at this level,
 and it makes some sense.

 This, of course, is all my own probably warped interpretation.  I just
 like the fact that the 'composite tree' has 13 'sephiroth' - one of my
 favorite magical numbers.
____________________________________________________________________________
   "Hold your fire -- Keep it burning bright..."

                                  Steve Cranmer
                                  cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Wicca and Thelema
Date: 23 Jul 92 08:04:46 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <14ion4INNl0m@scout.ksu.ksu.edu>, sylvan@scout.ksu.ksu.edu (Thad A
Williams) writes:
>In article <memo.531726@cix.compulink.co.uk> shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:

>>Take the religion out of Wicca, and I might even join....

>The whole point of Wicca is that it IS a religion. If you take the
>religion out there is not much left except maybe the practice of
>magick. Which is what we are already supposed to be talking about
>here! :)

Agreed, but lets not forget that *MOST* Wiccan Traditions (at least all of the ones that I've witnessed) generally use "formula-magick", which is a bit different than what is practiced elsewhere...

And yes, I have seen Wiccan groups take the religion out of Wicca, and use the structure that was left...  (They also removed virtually any sembelance of "High" (read "structured") magick, but kept to the basic "Wiccan Formulas"...) It left a few interesting results...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
            
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Runes (was Re: Odinism Help for Newbie)
Organization: University of Tasmania (Australia)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 05:50:26 GMT

In article <62781@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:

> Alot of posting about relatively little has occurred in an attempt to
> 'establish' what is and is not historically valuable as far as runic
> divination systems go (particularly Norse).

No. The question has been whether there is any evidence whatsoever
that runic divination was used in the middle ages.

> My response:
> 
> First of all, if we are going to begin reviewing books and such with
> respect to their VALUE, then historicism is hardly a fair means to
> do this.  It would seem that personal experience with the various
> systems is a more accurate source.  What worked for previous (and
> for some 'alien') cultures may not fit our needs now.

I wasn't talking about the value of the books, I was simply saying
that their claims to be passing on medieval lore are entirely false.
There is no evidence that the runes were ever used for divination
before New Agers and neo-pagans started doing so in the late 20th
century. This is a simple statement of fact. If people think that
runic divination 'works' and that it has value and significance
then that's fine by me. *I* certainly don't believe that, but what
you beleive is your business.
If, however you tell me that runic divination is medieval in origin,
as these books do, then I will say that there is no evidence that
this is the case.

> Instead of telling us what *IS* worthwhile because of its historical
> accuracy (and this really becomes tediously pedantic), please evaluate
> the books based on their approach, clarity, relevance to MODERN life,
> and usefulness.  Also note whether YOU have used the system you are
> reviewing.  We may discover that my 'elven runes' which my aunt martha
> says were invented by the wee folk (that have, according to 'scholars'
> NO historical validity) are more useful and powerful than any *approved*
> brand.  [Take this as a flame to your elitism, not your person]

I wasn't being elitist, just making a historical point. Whether you
people believe rune magic and modern divination using runes are real
and effective is of little interest to me. I don't practice rune magic
or any form of magic(k).

> Before you think I've gone off half-cocked (which I might have but am
> assuming not) I do think there is some importance to historical 
> approaches to subjects, and even understand a review of their
> HISTORICITY, but I argue vehemently against the connection of this
> historicity with an absolute standard of value.

I hope I've made my intentions a bit more clear,
Wes thu hl
Tim O'Neill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 03:44:18 GMT

majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu (Salamander~) writes:

>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

>[...babble deleted...]

>>IMO, forms without context are forms without power.

>I _dare_ you to look a Chaos Magickian in the eye and say that...

Hmmm, from what little I've read about Chaos, I think that that is one of the
main points of Chaos.  One should not just accept what someone else has handed
you, as if magic was a cookie recipe.  I believe that the Chaos approach is
for each individual to work our hir own stuff, and to keep flexible with that.
Chaos isn't real into form, from what little I've seen.

Any Chaosers care to comment?

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)