HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Group activity
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:25:31 GMT

Ellisif kindly answered my question, but perhaps my indignation was not
specific enough.  Let me get specific.

There is really no such thing as a Kingdom, separate and distinct from
the local groups, or the Society as a whole.  As Arval pointed out in
a separate message, it's not as if you can take away each and every
local group, and still have a kingdom.  In the East, our Kingdom doesn't
even show the capability to run it's own events without a local group
(and, since the genesis of the ruling we speak about is an East Kingdom
ruling, I think the local angle is apt).

Of the services that Ellisif lists, most are provided by the money
paid to the Society by members, and are provided as a service to those
dues paying members.  Take from her examples, of publication of group
events and practices, and group contact information.  On the one hand,
few practices are actually published, and the issue at hand is a group
that isn't holding events.  Therefore, no benefit is provided.  The
contact information is not provided to those who haven't paid for the
information (through the kingdom).  Anyone who wants contact information
should can call the Society offices.

The free assistance concept is interesting, but I do not see it as
a function of the Kingdom, but as a function of the society the Society
engenders.  I have never been a Kingdom Officer, but I've done my share
to help out other people and groups.  And, of the help I've received
over the years, the vast majority did not come from the Kingdom.

The free access to legal and tax information is nice, I'm sure. But
despite the good intentions of the gentles who provide it, it mostly
isn't worth much.  And the need for that information is generally 
created by the Society or the Government. And, as Ellisif pointed out,
it is mostly of benefit to Autocrats (which this hypothetical group
I'm arguing about wouldn't need).

The insurance coverage has nothing to do with the Kingdom.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: You know you're in the SCA....
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1992 21:07:12

...when you wear long-sleeved shirts to work in the Southwest in the summer so they won't assume your fencing bruises are from your husband hitting you....

... when you can spend three hours talking costuming with a gorgeous young man, and he isn't gay.....

....when your friends recognize you on the phone only when you use your persona name (Much to the confusion of your co-workers)

...when the receptionist calls you and says, "Hey do you have another name?  This guy's on the phone asking for (your persona name) and i figured it must be you...."

...when you measure fabric at the remnant table by holding one end up to your nose and the other at full extension.

...when a newcomer asks you for a pattern for the shirt you're wearing and you think "Pattern?  Gee-when did I last use a pattern?"

....when the lutist at the Medieval Inn comes around asking for song requests and does a doubletake when you ask for a Dowland tune.

Tadhg adds:
...when you read a book on the Middle Ages and find out that's not what you've been doing at all...

...when the receptionist asks you "How many weird names do you have, anyway?"

---- Vashti of the flaming Tresses.   


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Astronomy
Date: 11 Nov 92 06:17:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov11.061731.4273
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

In article <1992Nov11.025928.12177@newsroom.utas.edu.au> Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
>I am very interested in medieval astronomy and am currently working on an 
>annotated translation of Chaucer's 'Treatise on the Astrolabe'. I have already

  No disrespect for your efforts intended, but what's there to translate?
  Annotation I can see (I had my father to use as a resource for the various
  references -- most folk have no such source), but the text is clearly read-
  able.  The trick is to read it aloud to yourself with a *heavy stereotyped*
  Texas accent.  (I am *not* kidding.  Go ahead and laugh anyway, though ;)

  At any rate, I implore you to take great care with the translation.  In my
  high school, we read Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" and were provided with a
  translated edition.  My father insisted I read the original instead (would
  that everyone had a father such as mine...) and I did.  I also compared the
  two and was completely astounded by the omissions, changes, differences of
  emphasis, et cetera.

  Middle English takes getting used to, but it's no Sanskrit...
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 ------------------------- Life is a bottle of bread. -------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Subcultures in the SCA
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:51:04 GMT

In article <z3p1-+r@rpi.edu> habura@vccnorthb.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>
>Yes, I do think there are developing subcultures in the SCA, and have been
>for at *least* a decade. I regard this as inevitable in a group as big as
>the SCA has become. As long as the members of each subculture continue to
>
>Alison MacDermot
>(A member of the heraldry-addicts subculture, the authenticity-is-fun 
>subculture, and a nascent arts weenie)
>

Therein lies friction! I have noticed that a number of heralds (myself
included) tend towards the "authenticity is fun" subculture. This might
explain some of the traditional gripes about heralds by the rest of the
populace. It might also explain some of the gripes about the populace by
the heralds. :)

Lothar \|/
        0
From: D91-NOA@trisse.hj.se
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Guns vs swords ???
Date: 11 Nov 92 09:28:34 GMT
Organization: The Internet
X-Unparsable-Date: 11 Nov 92 10: 11:53 MET+1

Greetings

I've followed the debate on guns vs swords the latest issues of
the SCA digest, and I must say that I don't really understand the
interest of debating the matter. For me I can't think of any reason
to use swords against someone holding a gun (unless they threatened
my family or something). NEVER EVER try to mess with someone
disturbing your event. Call the police and keep calm. It's not really
interesting if you have 40% or 70% chance of beating the idiot. You
actually risk your own life. Of course, in a desperate situation I
would defend myself, but only if I was directly attacked. Some of the
people that has written articles on the subject seems to ignore the
risk of being killed. Even if the armed idiots usually don't use
their guns, Murphy tells us that just the idiot you meet will use his.

Here in the baronny of Nordmark (Sweden) we have never debated this
matter. Is the situation really that bad in the States ??? If so, I
do feel sorry for you.

I do apologize for my quite lousy english.

Lord Padraig Gliadrachan Ceallach
(aka Anders Nordstroem)
EMAIL - D91-NOA@tekn.hj.se

"Yet who would have thought the old man
 to have had so much blood in him ?"

                          - Lady MacBeth
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Info on commercial chainmail wanted
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 18:43:34 GMT

I've been corresponding with a gentle who wishes to purchase
chainmail (either complete pieces, or kits) for a present for
a friend.  I asked me to provide suggestions for SCA merchants
to contact.

I keep a lot of lists and stuff on line, but this is information
I haven't got.  And, in order to preserve the surprise, I've been
asked to post the request, and pass along any suggestions.

This gentle is on the Rialto, so postings will work, and I can
forward email, so that will work too.  I will be saving the
addresses and suggestions for future reference.

Many thanks.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: homage and fealty questions
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:21:00 GMT

Hossein, you seem to be asserting that there can be no fealty without
homage.

Two questions - what is the feudal relationship between, say, the
Arch-bishop of Canterbury as Chancellor of England and the King of
England? and, what was the basis of a contract that didn't involve
homage?

(And I agree with you that peerage ought to be based on nobility,
not peerage.)

Graydon
From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Thora Sharptooth
Date: 11 Nov 92 13:40:22 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Unto all who read these words, appologies but:

Yoo Hooooo!  Thora!  It's Yaakov.  Remeber you were
going to write to me with Mhari's address for the
EK colleg of Bard's and I was suppossed to do something
on the Rialto so you could get my email address?
Well her it is. lawbkwn@buacca.bu.edu

Yaakov
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Shoe Biz
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 20:43:42

 AtU> In the meantime, I'm going to events in New Balance Walkers.   I find
 AtU> moccasins to be unacceptible, if I'm going to buy 
 AtU> shoes especially for
 AtU> SCA, I wangt them to look right.   Now the question:

 AtU> Are there readily available mail-order sources for period footwear?
 I will look for the address for Medieval Moccasins, a group that sells 
 their wares at the Texas Renaissance Fair and Scarborough Faire here 
 in Texas.  Their shoes are not actually period, but perioid.  They 
 are loosely based on ghillies, the traditional and ancient shoe of 
 the Scots and Irish.  They do have a thick rubber sole, which makes 
 them more comfortable than, say, the Chinese "Mary Janes" that so many 
 of us wear.
     Who knows, perhaps if enough of us send pictures, these folks might 
 actually make a real period shoe for us.......
        Gwenllian Cwmystwyth
           Steppes, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Inauthenticity and assumptions
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:16:04 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Gwydion ap Myrddin recently
posted an argument following Cariadoc's frequent advice not to let the
best become the enemy of the good:

>My point?  Be very careful about not pushing those away that want to have
>fun but just don't have the resources by imposing handicaps or other
>seemingly-harmless prejudices.  While I know I can't provide everyone with
>an authentic bow to help the shooting atmosphere, I do help where I can...
>providing more authentic targets, for example... that's something that is
>simple, cheap, and goes a long way to improving the atmosphere.

A well taken point, but it embodies an unfortunate presupposition, to wit,
that those who began the archery-and-inauthenticity thread want to push
people away.  The argument began, not with a complaint that inauthentic
archery should _not_ be permitted, but that _authentic_ archery _should_
-- and isn't, at the moment.

This is the second thread in the last couple of weeks in which an appeal
to promote (or simply not block!) increases in authenticity through 
education and example, has been taken as an appeal to prohibit other 
practices.  (The first was the discussion on dance.)  Why do we make this 
leap so readily?  Far more people have spoken to prohibit or denegrate 
authentic archery practices than have spoken against inauthentic ones 
-- except that a few people have said that they would like to make _their 
own_ practice more authentic.  Why is this so threatening?  Why is it 
consistently perceived as an attempt to coerce?

I would understand more easily, had not so many people in both these 
threads been so careful to block this reading of their comments, which 
in both cases has nonetheless been forced on them.

We should, of course, be careful not to interfere with anything that 
contributes to improving our atmosphere.  Gwydion is absolutely right
that insisting on perfection may hamper smaller increases.  But so does
promoting an atmosphere of antagonism by assuming attempts to coerce
or prohibit where none are made, and especially where they are explicitly
denied.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Group activity
Date: 2 Nov 92 21:14:58 GMT


 MS>   Keeps the pool active -- forced interaction with other groups, 
 MS>   non-insularity, that kind of thing.

 MS> Yes.  That's why it might be a good idea to do so.  
 MS> Why should we require it in
 MS> all cases, even where it wouldn't be a good idea?
 I'm not sure I follow.  When would it not be a good idea for a group to 
 correspond with both its own less-active members and the rest of the 
 kingdom?
...
 MS> It's so easy to run an event that matches the letter of the law, but
 MS> not the spirit, that I think it's a silly metric.  For example, let's
 MS> pretend (really hard) that I am the seneschal of a virtually deceased
 MS> SCA group.  I could get around this rule, simply by 
 MS> holding an SCA event
 MS> at my office at work, next Wednesday, from 1:30 to 2:00.  If I time it
 MS> right, I can hold it the first day of the month, and leave no time for
 MS> even the dedicated to make plans to be there.  I 
 MS> have now conformed to the
 MS> letter of the law.
 Perhaps we're both assuming different things about this proposed event. 
 I rather assumed that they'd have to go through the Kingdom Seneschal 
 to get a date on the calendar.  Would *your* KS let you put a date on 
 the calendar that was a Wednesday?  Also, I believe (but am not sure) 
 that the KS would discount such an event if the group couldn't get their  advertisement in on time.
   Actually, if you look at from your angle, that means somebody cares 
 enough that they should have a chance to keep it open for a while, 
 right?
...
 MS> Besides, if a group is virtually moribund, how good an SCA event will
 MS> they have?  Who would attend?  What's the advantage?
 Well, I agree that it sure wouldn't be much of an event.  The advantage 
 that I see is that we've made sure that they are playing the game, and 
 to me, that's part of the definition of an SCA group.  
    BTW, I assume that it would be impossible for Carolingia to go a 
 year without holding something?  Here in the Steppes, there is usually 
 such a ferment of ideas and activity that we hold at least 1 or 2 in 
 addition to our two standard-since-the-early-days events.
     Fare thee well,
       Gwenllian Cwmystwyth
          Steppes, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Bjorn@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.ORG (Bjorn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: art or science?
Date: 10 Nov 92 06:29:10 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) Tadhg, Obelisk Herald said:

T>     Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald, wrote:

 FA> According to the people who started me out in the SCA, an art is
 FA> something that is purely decorative, while a science produces
 FA> something that can be used.

T>  According to Sir Polidor Haraldsson (15 years ago, it was), it's science
T>  if it hurts to drop it on your foot, otherwise it's art....

If you "engineered" it, its a science, if you "created" it, its an art.

I know two ladies who are both execellent costumers.  They can both look at 
the same source documentation and one will "draft" a pattern and "build" a
gown, the other will "drape" the cloth and "create" a gown.  It takes them 
about the same time, and the results are almost identical.  

As cooks one works out exact measurements of ingredients, and the other
adds this or that until its the right amount.  Oddly the lady who "builds" 
gowns "creates" meals, and the one who "creates" gowns "builds" meals.

The difference between a left brain skill, and a right brain skill is the
difference between an art and a science.  In other words, its in the mind
of the practitioner.

Bjorn Bjorklund, Storvik, Atlantia

 -- SPEED 1.00 [NR]: rich@aeneas.ims.disa.mil - but you can call me Bjorn.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: 
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1992 16:21:48 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Brandr Wyborn wrote:

> The Patent of Arms that was given to the former Queen in Meridies was
> revoked because it violated the law of the Kingdom.  

This is incorrect; I was at the Board meeting, and while the directors
considered Meridian law in their discussion, their decision was based
solely on Corpora.  Corpora expressly forbids the bestowal of a patent of
arms except at the time when the recipient is inducted into one of the
Orders of the Pelican, Laurel, Chivalry, Rose, or is given a royal peerage
title.  The award may also have violated kingdom law, but the Board's
decision did not address that question.

> It was not attached to any peerage order, Chivalry, Laurel, or
> Pelican..., and Kingdom law specifically stated that to recieve a POA one
> must be approved by one of the peerage orders.

Does Meridian law actually say that candidates must be approved by one of
the orders?  In particular, does it require the Crown to get that approval?
I would be grateful if someone would post or send me the relevent passages
of Meridien law.

> Since that time, Kingdom law has been changed to allow someone holding a
> County or Duchy to be recieve a POA and not become a peer.  

An important correction: Duchy, County, and Viscounty ranks _are_ peerages.
These peers do not necessarily have a patent of arms, but Corpora defines
them to be peers.  And "peer" means "equal".

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Oyez!  (was Re: You Know You're In The SCA)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 19:42:31 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Godfrey de Shippbroke wrote:

> What's really strange (at least, to me) is to hear a bailiff call the
> court to order by shouting `oyez' -- and pronouncing the `z'...

I believe that pronunciation is correct in medieval French, though I will
happily accept correction form anyone who has studied those languages more
than I.  I believe that the silent final consonants are largely a
development of modern French.  I believe the final consonant would also
have been pronounced medieval English-speakers.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: visible inauthenticity of archery
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:47:00 GMT

An individual I can only identify as powels@rpi.edu responded to
T. Archer's post about periodicity versus safety, cost, and convienence.

I would like to address some of this gentle's points.

Firstly, the question of fairness.  Modern materials bows are
more effecient and accurate than anything that can be built with
period technology, all other things (like draw weight and draw length)
being equal.  Since what gets rewarded is score (scores kept after
the fashion of modern target archery for the most part), it is more
difficult to advocate period tackle when it is correctly percieved
as being a disadvantage inside the SCA cultural context.

The discussion was about ways to address this; Fiacha suguested
handicapping, I sugguested a more period style of competition,
and T. Archer seems to think it is foolish to be concerned with
authenticity in this area.   I am somewhat baffled as to how this
advocates an unfairness; handicapping systems are supposed to increase
fairness (aside - I think Fiacha's handicapping sugguestion sucks rocks.
Not something that will solve the problem, and will add others.)
What I'm advocating is everyone still shooting at the same target,
just *different* targets.


As for any given archer being the only person to care about their
score, this is not so.  The Eastrealm royal round scores are watched
very closely, with standing being vied for.  The Midrealm is in the
process of putting in such a system.  IKAC scores are kept, and
distributed; presumably there are a number of people who care about
them.  The Midrealm archery order is restricted to those who get
a significant number of points in a Pennsic shoot.
I have no quarrel with the attitude you describe as being *appropriate*,
but it is by no means the advocated-by-actions attitude.


The  'truely authentic bowstring' snapping and making a mess of a child's
face is an unpleasant image, but one with very little grounding in
realistic expectation.  *Any* archery equipment is only going to
hurt you if God wants it to or you do something stupid.  The list
of stupid things is somewhat different for period tackle, granted.
What is your basis to believe that an authentic bowstring would
be unsafe?

Graydon, who is starting to go on and on about this issue...
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Fealty, not oaths, to a kingdom
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:17:04 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Tadhg observed:

> "Homage" is a personal relationship of service and protection; "fealty"
> is the rendering of service in return for a "fee". Knights are in fealty
> by virtue of their peerage...  For non-Knight peers and non-landed
> nobility to characterize their relationship with the Crown as "fealty",
> however, would be inaccurate (unless, of course, the Crown gives them
> something on account of it...).

Interesting.  I think it makes as much sense for a Laurel or Pelican to
consider his rank to be an estate from the Crown as it does for a knight.
Why do you see a difference?  

Non-nobles could hold themselves in fealty to a nobleman (including the
Crown) if they are providing some service in return for some kind of
support, recognition, payment, etc.  I have found reference in history to
fealty for service in return for payment, apparently without reference to a
piece of land.  I forget the term for it.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca