HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Jeffrey.L.Singman@um.cc.umich.EDU
Subject: Elizabethan Handbook
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:21:28 GMT

To all interested in Elizabethan living history...
		Unfortunately, a broken finger makes it too laborious for me to respond in
detail to Nicholas van Leyden's criticisms of the Elizabethan Handbook (hence
the brevity of my resonse yesterday), but I would like to add a few short re-
marks:
--I have been at great pains to ensure that the Handbook was as fully foot-
noted as possible.  This constitutes a departure from many other works in
this field (for example Winters and Savoy's book on costume);  and one of the
principal reasons for doing so was to allow the reader to see where the
patterns were derived from primary sources, and where they were conjectural,
as well as making it possible to pursue specific topics in greater depth.
Our policy in general was to use the best information available to us, and to
make our sources of information as clear as possible, to allow readers and
(we hope) future revisors to approach the text critically.
--If my remarks yesterday seemed rather peeved, it is scarcely without reason.
For the record, the profit margin on the Handbook is minimal, and when over-
head costs are reckoned, *nil*:  my hope is that it will generate enough capi-
tal to finance further reprintings and revisions without my having to use my
own funds.  I long ago opted out of the SCA system of awards, and I can ex-
pect no professional advantage from the Handbook:  my sole reward for the
uncountable hours of labour (essentially most all of my free time over the
course of a year) is the knowledge that I have produced something inherently
worthwhile which, I hope, will prove useful to others.  While some of van
Leyden's remarks were quite valid, on the whole they displayed a distressing
insensitivity to the value of the work as a whole.
	I have had many inquiries about the Handbook, and will see about posting a
formal advert to the net.  Yours, Jeffrey L. Singman.
From: Allen.Pitts@f333.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Allen Pitts)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Robin Hood Recast
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:52:00 -0500

M'Lord....
Might I suggest Master David McDougalls of Rivendell for the Robin
Hood role.  I commend him to your consideration as (1) his skills
at archery are indeed legendary both in the SCA and mundanely (2)
he most openly lusts after women and would be most happy to put
Marian on the list (3) he has been known as something of a rogue
and a little different for years and (4) he is happiest when he's
out in his forest (he owns a fair sized piece of land) shooting up
the countryside.  Now if I can just get him to get rid of that
God-awful straw hat.....
In your service and anxiously awaiting other suggestions, I am
Lord Ailean Mac an Daroch
-> MegaMail v2.1 #0:allen.pitts@f333.n142.z1.fidonet.org

From: Henry.Best@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Best)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: groups
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1992 16:52:08 -0500

    Lady Julitta posted:
     
J>      about the only areas we don't get to in the kingdom much are J> 
Storvik/new Ponte Alto, because we don't enjoy going to those J>  areas much, &
consider it something we have to get around to,J>  rather than because we want
to go.
  
    When I first moved to Atlantia, I heard many unfavorable things about
Storvik, its households, and the people who lived there. I eventually went to
Storvik and (new) Ponte Alto to see for myself. 
   
    What I found there compells me to speak up and correct you. I don't care
what you heard and I don't even care what you _experienced_ x years ago. Even if
it was true once (and I am not qualified to hold an opinion on that) it isn't
true today. 
    
    I have found the people of Storvik and Ponte Alto to be among the very best
people I have ever known. They make me and mine welcome at their events and in
their homes, graciously extending hospitality at any excuse. I have found them
to be honorable, articulate, and fun. I am proud to call them my friends. 
     
    Julitta, if someone speaks ill of a group of people, it doesn't matter if
the group is black, communist, mormon, or even storviki, DON'T BELIEVE THEM. Go
find out for yourself.
      
    I invite you to attend Coronation in Storvik and Day at the Races in Ponte
Alto. Make sure to get local crash space. (It won't be hard, you barely have to
hint before you get multiple offers...) I promise you will find out you were
simply wrong. By the time you hold meistersinger competition this December in
Ponte Alto, you will find yourself among Old Friends.
       
    Harumph. Well, I guess I've had my say.
        
                                                Henry Best
                                                Isenfir, Atlantia

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Historical Accuracy (was Re: COVINGTON CROSS)
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
	<1992Aug26.172137.10374@hubcap.clemson.edu>
	<1992Aug26.193248.6541@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 04:39:08 GMT

On 26 Aug 92 19:32:48 GMT, charles@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Charles Jacob Cohen) said:

C> This kinda upsets me, and this is a good time to bring this up. Yes, the
C> show was bad, and I was hoping for better, but....

C> Everytime, and I mean *everytime* I see a show with my SCA friends that
C> has to do with the middle ages, they can never sit back and watch it, they
C> have to nit pick every little detail and tear it to shreads.  

It's not just your SCA friends, it's anyone with any real knowledge
about the topic being portrayed.  You should hear my Dryden friends
and me dissing TV shows about aircraft.  That short-lived
"Supercarrier" show was usually good for an entire morning of
criticism, snotty remarks, and general nitpicking.

And then there was "Top Gun"....

Remember "The Six-Million-Dollar Man"?  That's an HL-10 that comes
off the hooks of the B-52 and it magically transforms into an M2-F2
to crash.  Many of us are compelled to snicker every time we mention
this, but I'll bet most people never noticed it.  Did you?

C> This wouldn't
C> be so bad, but the SCA isn't perfect either!  We try, but we mix time 
C> periods and do things wrong, and what we know about the middle ages isn't
C> perfect anyway.  And the people who usually gripe the most don't know much
C> about the middle ages in the first place.

Well, we here at Dryden _are_ perfect and we _are_ extremely critical
of the errors we see, so I wouldn't carry this line of reasoning too
far.

Seriously, you're complaining about something that I see every day, in
every field that shows up on a TV show.  If you know _anything_ about
a subject, TV is bound to outrage you.  Movies, too.  That Red
Delicious apple on the Civil War battlefield in "Dances with Wolves"
when Red Delicious apples didn't happen until after the turn of the
century--there were probably Civil War reconstructers apoplectic about
that one.  I get incensed when aircraft transform themselves in midair.
My ex-Navy buddies fume about errors in Naval etiquette.

I guess it boils down to "What you don't know, entertains you".

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "There's no kill like a guns kill." LCDR "Hoser" Satrapa, gunnery instructor
                       "A kill is a kill."  Anonymous

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kevin@isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Fair
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:18:50 GMT

Syr Otto von Schwartzkatz wrote:

> How about AEthelmearc _VS_ the East _&_ the Middle. Both kingdoms have been
> fighting in Aethalmearc for most of the las 21 years. The other kingdom
> (non-East & Middle) could fight (as allys) for EAthelmearc.

If the idea of trying to hold an actual medieval tournament at/as
Pennsic works out, why not have 'sides' determined by the people in
each one. Some years there might be 2 'sides', others, perhaps a dozen.
Large fighting units could be their own, or could ally with a larger
group -- or be the large group around which others ally.

Or do it by Kingdom; each kingdom is considered to be 'a' unit - they
can then decide to ally with others for mutual benefit.

Just some thoughts...

Keradwc
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |       Adfui, Feci        |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Programming/eyeglasses\
Date: 28 Aug 92 06:41:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.715047126.F00001

Ti>  From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Ti>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Ti>
Ti>   [On the other hand, I've just gotten through having radial
Ti>  keratotomy, and
Ti>   don't wear glasses anymore. I'm sure that will screw up *somebody's*
Ti>   data....]
Ti>
Ti>      Tadhg, Obelisk

I'm very interested in RK. Can you respond to my email address about how it 
seems to be going for you? I've herd a lot of bad things, a lot of good 
things...very confusing. (I can't respond to email on OD/Rose hookup. I only 
use it because I don't know how to use the online word-processor on agora!-)

Moreach NicMaolain
email to: trifid@agora.rain.com 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: BRADY@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu (Duncan MacKinnon)
Subject: Need Senechal Addresses (Meridies & East)
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:40:22 GMT

Unto the assembled gentles of The Rialto does Duncan MacKinnon send
greetings!

I am attempting to mail some information to the baronies and shires which
neighbor Atlantia to the west, but unfortunately I am not in possession of
the newsletters for either the East or Meridies. Would it be possible for
some kind soul out there to e-mail to me addresses of senechals for groups
in the following areas: Eastern West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, and North-
Eastern Tennessee (Knoxville, Johnson City, Bristol, and Kingsport).
Please - e-mail replies only, to brady@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu
My great thanks,
 Duncan MacKinnon                 Tom Brady
 Barony of Black Diamond          Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, VA
 Kingdom of Atlantia
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sherman@trln.lib.unc.EDU ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Subject: period fabrics
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:23:56 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.

There's been some talk about period weaving, and Alexander asked for a
definition of terms.  One book that will give both the novice (and I
count myself one in weaving) clear definitions, and the experienced
weaver substantial information is _Textiles and Clothing_, the most
recent in the series of books from The Museum of London detailing
information found in several archeological sites in the city of
London.  The previous books in the series are _Knives and Scabbards_,
_Shoes and Pattens_, and _Dress Accessories_.  I know that one on
horse accessories is in the works. 

_Textiles and Clothing_ is about 2/3 discussion of weaving techniques 
and various materials, the remainder discusses sewing techniques and 
clothing patterns.  There are copious photographs and line drawings of 
recovered articles dated from 1150 - 1450 CE.  This is a great 
resource, highly recommended by me :-) and everyone I know who has 
seen it.  So are the other books, for that matter.

I don't have the book here at work, so I can't give full bibliographic
information from memory.  It is available from HMSO Books (That's Her
Majesties Stationery Office) in London.  They run a 24 hour order line
at 01-44-71-873-9090.  An international call isn't all that expensive,
and they take Visa and Mastercard.  The book cost me about US$35, and
took about 6 weeks to arrive.  The sales clerks are quite good about
figuring out what book you really want if you tell them "The newest
Museum of London book, about Textiles" -- which is exactly what I told
them.  You can make it easier by telling them the title is _Textiles
and Clothing_, volume 4 in the series Medieval Finds from Excavations
in London from the Museum of London. 

*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Dennis R. Sherman  	         Triangle Research Libraries Network *
* dennis_sherman@unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: charles@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Charles Jacob Cohen)
Subject: Historical Accuracy (was Re: COVINGTON CROSS)
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:32:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.172137.10374@hubcap.clemson.edu> rarnold@hubcap.clemson.edu (robert e arnold) writes:
>Come now!  What do you expect on television.  If you watched the show and
>expected the historical accuracy that the SCA would have attempted, you were
>bound to be disappointed.  The show offers scenery and costumes.  Everything
>else will be pithy 1990's politically-correct garbage.  Watch it in the right
>context, and you will not be so upset that CC leaves much to be desired.
>
>By the way, why not have all SCAdians write ABC and ask for historical
>accountability?
>
>Wolfhelm Bertoltz
>Falcon Cree, Notinghill Coill, Atlantia


This kinda upsets me, and this is a good time to bring this up. Yes, the
show was bad, and I was hoping for better, but....

Everytime, and I mean *everytime* I see a show with my SCA friends that
has to do with the middle ages, they can never sit back and watch it, they
have to nit pick every little detail and tear it to shreads.  This wouldn't
be so bad, but the SCA isn't perfect either!  We try, but we mix time 
periods and do things wrong, and what we know about the middle ages isn't
perfect anyway.  And the people who usually gripe the most don't know much
about the middle ages in the first place.

I mean, they even put down Danny Kaye's "The Court Jester" because of
some anachonisms, instead of just enjoying the farce as it was intended.
btw, this is nothing against you, Lord Bertoltz, I just needed to get
this off of my chest.  Does anyone else out there feel that the SCA goes
to far in putting down other people's attempts to explore the middle ages?
At least this gets people thinking about it, and maybe wondering if there
is a group out there that does it right...

I'm sorry, i'll get down off my soapbox now.  -  Midair the Juggler



-- 
"I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use." - Galileo
"I'm an engineer, not a dictionary!" - Me
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allotment
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:28:19 GMT
Followup-To: The Rialto
Organization: SCA

Greetings all, especially Tibor, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Tibor says,

>Syr Otto von Schwartzkatz asks about pre-registering for more people than you
>intend.  If you read the information booklet, you would realize that this
>was not permitted.  How "catchable" the offense is, is a whole 'nother
>ball game.
>
>Since the total attendees was much less than the pre-registration, there
>wasn't much of a big deal.  You can bet, however, that if many more people
>had shown up, Johann would have come by, and "shrunk" your encampment,
>and put single camper's there.  (Caveat: this is my opinion, I didn't
>ask Johann, and don't speak for him).

If I remember the thread properly, Syr Otto was suggesting _paid_ registration
of extras -- treating the space as for rent.  Clearly, this year's rules
did not allow for that; but it is a different idea from simply taking more
space than you are entitled to....

Then again, I may be confused as to who said what.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: awards & recognition
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 18:16:45 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Tux wrote:

> I have this damned albatros called a pelican for my sins.  I never wear 
> the fool thing...  I much rather people meet me, and not my peerage.

An understandable opinion; different people approach peerage differently.
I believe that a peerage is more than an award; it's a job.  On one hand,
when the Crown awards a peerage it is saying "You are a model for the
Society, and all should emulate you."  On the other hand, the Crown is
saying "You are henceforth obliged to continue to be a model for the
Society, so that all may emulate you."  For me, part of the obligation of
peerage is to be identifiably a peer.  That choice is not for everyone, but
I could never be a "stealth peer"; it would make it impossible for me to do
fulfill some of the duties that were laid on me when I received my peerage.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: d-harper@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Diane Harper)
Subject: Bertram's Grandmother's Welsh Cookies
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 10:26:50 EDT

Bertram said he had not document this recipe.  It is very similar to the 
recipe for excellent small cakes in the Closet of Sir Kenelme Digbie Opened, 
1669.  That recipe differs from Bertram's in that it has no salt or baking 
powder, and uses cream instead of milk.  They are to baked in "a quick oven 
unclosed".  A modern redaction is available in "Chistmas Feasts" by Lorna J. 
Sass and published by the Metropolitan Museum of Art (still in print as of 
December 1991) for $3.95 US funds.  The redaction is very close to the 
original except that the cookies are baked in a regular oven.  Digbie's 
recipe also calls for the cakes to be iced, but we have never bothered as 
the recipe is so rich.  Can anyone document an earlier version?  

                                        Siglinde Harfnerstocher
                                Barony of Skraeling Althing
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: consort gender
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:24:36 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings all, especially Selfran, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  This is my
second attempt to post, as there are signs that the first went astray.  If
you've seen something from me on this already, do whatever you do as an
equivalent of "hit n" now.

Selfran writes,

>I always wondered what to do about the "inspiration" problem.  I'm not
>in a "relationship" same sx or otherwise, so if I wanted to compete
>in Coronet, what do I do to avoid doing violence to this concept - a concept
>I enjoy *because* it is so high medieval?
>  
>I don't want to just wander up to someone and say "Hey, can I fight
>for you in Coronet".  If I win the damn thing I want to be able to 
>crown the person who *inspired* me to win, the person I really 
>*wanted* to put on the throne.

The notion of being inspired by someone -- and in particular of knights
being inspired by ladies -- is indeed very high medieval.  But the notion
of their being involved with them sexually is, I suspect, rather more
modern.  In many, many, many cases in the middle ages, the lady who
inspired all the young men around was the wife of the head of household
(i.e. their liege lord's wife).  Hey, look, not only can they not all have
been _achieving_ sexual relationships with her, it's just not plausible
that they were all even significantly _hoping_.  There is evidence of
substantial security around ladies, indicating that husbands saw a real
danger of extramarital affaires; and in some times and places, the tradition
really did set up some of the senior males to give it a try.  But I think
this aspect gets exaggerated in our modern view.

And the inspiration is usually to win (and to be worthy of) the respect
and good will of the one admired.

Surely, whatever one's gender preferences, there is _someone_ out there
of the other gender who satisfies the requirements for an SCA consort,
of whom one thinks highly, who one would like to think highly of oneself,
and who would not unless one's behavior were exemplary?

The point of inspiration, at least in the middle ages, wasn't just, or
even primarily, to make the inspired hit harder and feel less; it was
to create standards of honor and courtesy, to keep the fighters more than
louts.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:24:55 GMT

In article <Bu0DA7.7Ft@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.000532.19720@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Alan Kerr) writes:
>
>>In some heraldry, there are 'stains' which are basically a few
>>'natural dye' colors.  
>
>The other heraldic colours were created in the middle ages by aniline and
>petrochemical pigments, of course.  \8-)
>

I have seen wool dyed with natural dyes which is quite bright. None of
the colors are as saturated as their modern equivalents, but I do know
that Weld will give a reasonably bright yellow, some Madder will give a
bright red, and that there is some dye that gives a yellowy orange.
Bright cloth dyes were obtainable in period, they just weren't as
intense as chemical dyes.
   The basic idea of putting non-combatants in bright, easily identified
uniforms of some sort is basically a good one, talk with the powers that
be.
   At Pennsic, at least over the last couple of years, the only battle
where "semi-combatants" were allowed was the woods battle, where scouts
were allowed. Anyone else was either a fighter or a non-fighter.

Hope this helps,

Lothar \|/
        o
From: canton@robinson.ilog.fr (Eric Canton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA publications - tariff and how to get'em
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:41:55 GMT
Distribution: rec.org.sca
Organization: ILOG S.A., Gentilly, France


Nobles seigneurs et nobles dames,

Could any of you tell me whether the prices listed in the 12/1/91
Office of the Stock Clerk list are still OK ? I plan to order
for a total of about $150. As I live in Paris, France, the postal
delays are not small ones, so I would prefer to avoid unnecessary
problems with changed prices.

Come to think about it, maybe someone from Drachenwald could tell
me of his experience with ordering from the stock clerk (delays,
what means of payment to use, and such). Or maybe there is someone
from the stock clerk's office with net access that could help me.

As these publication (and the Rialto) will likely be all of my
contacts with the SCA (there is no SCA in France yet, to the best
of my knowledge), I'm eager to get them, and all help will be 
appreciated (e-mail or post to the Rialto, as you see fit).

Thanks in advance.

Claude de Montcastel



Eric Canton
e-mail : canton@ilog.fr