From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Conscience
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:50:08 GMT

glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer ) writes:

>Thank you for your response.  You knew exactly the question
>I was asking and your answer clearly shows me that Quakerism
>is not for me.  It is a shame, because the Society of Friends
>truly was my last hope in trying to find a group of people
>who shared my beliefs.  You see, I do not suffer from the
>Protestant Dilemma.  It is not anarchy that we need fear.
>What we need fear is someone, or some group that thinks that
>it has the right to impose it's will on any person.  Obviously
>it does not matter whether this coercion arises from the Monthly
>Meetings or the Yearly Meetings.  Coercion is coercion no matter
>what its source.  The overriding of the individual conscience is
>the only sin there is.

You have missed a major point.  No Meeting (Monthly or Quarterly) can impose
its will on anyone.  Every decision must be made by a consensus of all the
members of the Meeting.  If even one person has a moral objection, then the
decision cannot be made.  However, the objection must be something more than
simple disagreement--the person who stands in the way says that sie is being
given a portion of Light that noone else present has been given.
> 
>This coercion is particularly scary when the group thinks that
>its coercion is the will of God.  Only the truly gullible are
>unable to see through the false authority of the Pope or the
>Protestant leaders.   But by working toward a consensus, you
>all truly believe in your coercion.  This is even more insidious
>than the brainwashed masses who chanted their love of Big Brother.

It can not be coercion if everyone has the power to stop a decision.  It also
cannot be coercion if the decision is made in the prophetic spirit.  It is my
sense that you do not believe that the Spirit has any power in this world--
that the Spirit can not influence people to live according to Divine standards,
rather than merely personal ones.
> 
>I do believe in an absolute moral authority, i.e.
>Christ.  However, I believe, that neither I, nor a group
>of people can ever have anything BUT moral judgement that is
>relative to Christ.  I thought I had an ego problem.  Sure we
>can percieve bits, and pieces of the Light, but none of us alone,
>nor a group can ever comprehend Love in all it's fullness.  You
>far underrate Love, and overrate yourselves.
> 
It appears to me that you see humans as inherently horrible--as blockages to
Divine love rather than channels of it.  Friends have never said that any
one person, or any group of people, can have the whole of the Light.  We do
believe that a group of people opening themselves to the leadings of the 
Spirit are likely to bring through the greatest portion of Divine Light 
possible.

>No not only are the Friends not for me, but if power were granted
>to the Friends they would be the the most dangerous evil the world
>has known.  With Friends like these, who needs enemies?
> 
It sounds like you do not believe that anyone has the right to respond to
any action by any other person.  Humans are a social animal--this involves 
getting along with each other.  Would you choose to spend large quantities
of time with someone who stabbed you with a knife every hour or so?  The
example is extreme, of course, but the point is valid.  All persons *do*
make decisions about thow to deal with others based on their actions.  It is
much better to do so honestly than to pretend not to.  You state that the
Friends were your last hope for a group to fit in with.  It appears to me
that you don't really want to do the work of belonging to a community.  
Membership in any community takes work--effort to build meaningful relationships
and to act in ways which respect others and their needs.  It sounds like you
want a bunch of people to hang out with who will not care what you do.  That
means that they don't care about you.  Real valuing of people does not happen
by not caring about them or their actions, but comes from real loving concern.
This involves saying to others things like, "if you don't stop stabbing me, I
won't spend time with you."  Your claim of supporting individual conscience
would not allow you to say that, so you would just stop spending time with the
person.  This is much less valuing of the individual than doing the work of
healing the problem. 
At this point, I have gone far afield from discussing the Friends.  I am
discussing the inherent problems in your position which would make you 
unable to meaningfully become a member of any community.  This is not intended
to make you feel bad about yourself, nor to convince you that Quakers are
saints.  The point is merely to allow you some new possibilities for your life.
Obviously, I have no way to control what you do with this information--I have
no power of coercion--all I have is my concern for another human being.  I
hope you find a path that works for you and that allows you to be fully
yourself.  


                               --Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark