From: mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Clueless hetboys and bi's
Date: 25 Jan 93 22:28:17
Organization: Department Of Computing, Imperial College, London.
	<1993Jan22.000051.10916@midway.uchicago.edu>
	<1k0ghk$47a@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: motmot.doc.ic.ac.uk
In-reply-to: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu's message of 25 Jan 1993 10:48:20 GMT

In article <1k0ghk$47a@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
> In article <1993Jan22.000051.10916@midway.uchicago.edu> elle@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
> ->I might add that the worst soc.bi generally has to deal with are the
> ->clueless straight boyz who Just Want to Watch.

> Umm, this is just probably due to _my_ experiences, but this sort of
> made me cringe ...

> I read this as sort of a putdown of straight, voyeuristic men.

> Pardon me for not having the Right Opinions, but what's wrong with
> just wanting to watch?

Absolutely nothing, provided all there are happy with the fact. I
think the problem lies in the fact that most of us (especially the
women here, I imagine) have at one time or another encountered one of
these Clueless Straight Boyz who find the idea of watching two women a
turn-on, while simultaneously screaming that the idea of seeing two
men together just squicks them. I needn't continue - we all no doubt
know the sort. Several of them have even haunted soc.bi for a while.

I can't, however, ever remember meeting or hearing a straight man on
here who admitted to having this fantasy without being crude,
insulting and clueless, or violently phobic about gay/bisexual men.
Now granted, these more considerate men do no doubt exist, but are
more cautious and worried about causing offence. So it's the clueless
ones that stick in our memories.

> Certainly, I know enough women who drool at the sight of two men
> making it, and I find it somehow sexist to single out the men,
> possibly because they're the only people would would admit it
> publicly.

*Nod*. There are certainly enough women with this fantasy, that I
doubt it can be much rarer than the inverse one in men.

> It's more than that, I suppose ... I was involved in a foursome last
> night (two men, two women.  I was one of the men), in (one of my )
> straight best friend's hotel room, on his bed.  He was invited to
> join in, declined, and spent the rest of the night (well, some of
> it.  He went to sleep about 90 minutes before we were finished)
> watching us (actually, he declined by saying he had the best view
> from where he was).

> I dunno ... It's just that when I read your comment, I automatically
> applied it to him, and was offended, y'know?

I think to some degree you perhaps read more into that line than was
originally intended, but ... to some degree we are perhaps guilty of
ourselves reducing people to stereotypes and not even checking to see
if they fit.

> It's like these days, I may get offended at the people who so
> easily, so naturally put down men who think of going to bed with two
> women (though it seems like you'd have to be awefully clueless to
> want to go to bed with two lesbians (though I want to go to bed with
> a few straight men I know)) ...  there's this assumption that brands
> them automatically as hetboys who want the two women to serve them,
> etc etc etc ...

[some paragraphs cut - sorry! but there's just too much to reply to it all]

> We keep assuming this fantasy that some hetmen have about being in
> bed with two women is chauvinistic, sexist, wrong.  I don't think it
> can automatically be branded as such, while still 'allowing' some
> women to have their fantasy about two men with them.

It's worth our time remembering that women *can* be as clueless as men
about this - it's rarer, I believe, but not by any means unknown.

> I dunno ... it's just this vague discomfort I have with branding
> thoughts, fantasies, as, in essence, politically incorrect.  I think
> it's wrong.

And so do I - and I'd hope most of us would.

Like Roy, I'm willing to make an admission - yes, the thought, and the
actuality, of watching two women having sex does turn me on. So, too,
do most other combinations - but then I'm bi, and the straight man
is probably less interested in watching men. Plus, I can see part of
another reason for the fascination - sex between two women is an act
in which a man is physically incapable of taking part - watching some
other sexual combinations may be less exciting because of the
*possibility* of taking the place of one of the participants.

I think perhaps we, who are the target of so many stereotypes
ourselves, should be especially cautious of applying the same sort of
thing to others. This doesn't mean, however, that we should tolerate
the sort of idiots we sometimes get here; but anyone who is
considerate and careful of others' feelings, and is willing to learn
and listen, should not be automatically lumped with them.

-Morven [tired, and hoping the above points make *some* sense]
--
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