From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Subject: Re: I Care! (was Re: Who cares)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:21:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.083655.41800@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
>
>I feel like I am in the middle.  I seldom see the kind of extreme
>behavior that you are talking about.  When I do see it, it is usually
>because of some greater suffering.

I see it time and time again on TV, newspapers, newsmagazines, etc.
Plus I live near DC and we get subjected to some protest downtown
fairly frequently on the local news.

>Which is why I thought your
>extreme reaction might have a deeper cause. 

It's funny, I didn't think my reaction was extreme at all... perhaps
"extremeness" is in the eye of the beholder?

>I recognise my part in maintaining systems of oppression.  I do what I
>can, when I can, to remove myself from them.  That doesn't always
>[...]

Yes, but release yourself from your (apparent) burden of guilt.
Release other men from the blame.  Learn from the past, but live for
today and the future.

>Hell, some of it I still don't see.  But now I try to see it.  Now I
>find when I tell most other men this, they think I am crazy, been
>brainwashed.  They think this doesn't apply to them.  They think they
>never do these things.  Some claim women control everything, men are
>just their pawns.  

I've had men tell me I'm taking the woman's viewpoint when I expressed
the opinion that spouses should be each other's best friend on the
planet.  They tried to convince me for quite a while but, fortunately,
I didn't budge.

>One place I have found an ear is among my fellow pagan men.  They are
>often willing to see the threads others would ignore, the ones that
>connect our daily actions to the ways of the world.  Those daily
>actions are the ones for which we are responsible.  That is what we
>can change.  I have also found that what lifts you up, lifts me up,
>lift the earth herself up.  Until we are beyond these systems of
>oppression, there will be no lasting change, no end to war, no end to
>poverty, no end to hatred, no end to environmental destruction even,
>as that is another form of oppression.

Agreed.  That is why I turned from Christianity a few years back.
(Note:  this is *not* intended as Christian-bashing, just as a
statement of fact.)

>> On a more personal level, I'm divorced with children.  The whole thing,
>[...]
>> 
>> These are just 2 instances where I've been cast as a bad guy contrary
>> to all evidence.  I believe everyone should be evaluated on an
>> individual basis.  To say that I'm a bad guy because I'm in a specific
>> group (e.g., divorced men) is wrong.
>
>I had not thought of this.  I know that many men have not paid their
>child support, and so a system of dealing with those who do not has
>been put in place to protect the mothers and children of the world.
>My own father, though not a particularly evil guy, did not want to pay
>child support for me.  Until it looked like his wages were going to be
>garnished, he did not pay.  That was about a year.   One very thin
>year for my sister, mother and I.  

I agree.  It is a crime for men to father children and then not take
responsibility for their needs.  However, I wonder how strident the
legal system would be if the father had custody and the mother didn't
pay child support?  Another thing that upsets me is the almost
unwavering award of custody to the mother.  The father has to show that
the mother is a really *bad* person, before he's even considered.

>The hospital perhaps should have been cautious as well.  When I look
>at this, I see that you have suffered because of the negative actions
>of other men.  Personally I feel it is unfair that younger men have to
>pay higher car insurance than do women.  After all, I didn't drive my
>car dangerously.   But the statistics weighed against me.  I was
>judged more likely to have an accident.  

I've dealt with that too!

>I find men are more likely to hurt me, rob me, kill me, discount my
>experiences, interrupt me.  And if I feel that way, I can only imagine
>how women feel.  I am going to treat men cautiously until I can judge
>them as an individual.  It is safer that way.  I am sorry for the men,
>like you who are inadvertantly harrassed like this.  When there is no
>time to find out what each individual is like, I am going to make some
>assumptions based on what the majority is like, and modify it later if
>need be.  

Using this technique, I guess I should be particularly careful of
young, black men?  Of people that look like they're from the Middle
East -- could be terrorists.  Maybe that red-head is a member of the
IRA?  I prefer to let what's inside a person tell me how they are as a
human, rather than what's outside.  It's risky at times, but I think
it's worth the risk.

>Marge Piercy in _Woman on the Edge of Time_ presented a kind of
>genderless soceity.  I thought it sounded kind of interesting, but not
>necessarily the way I would like soceity to evolve.  However I do
>think we should let go of some of our gender defined behavior.  The
>behavior that limits ourselves and others.  I am not against
>appreciating the differences, or even the similarities.  I do my share
>of watching women. I hope noone is saying men cannot find women
>attractive, or notice beauty when they feel they are seeing it.  If
>they are, I am standing with you.

I don't believe anyone is saying men shouldn't admire attractive women,
or vice-versa.  The problem comes in when women (or men -- it happens)
are sexually harrassed.  I am dead set against that and try to
stop/prevent it when I can.

>> But, again, isn't this judging the book by it's cover?
>
>I don't let it stand in the way of my reading the book.  But if the
>first couple of chapters just reinforce what the cover told me, I need
>a good reason to keep reading.

Well said.

>In your case, you posted on alt.pagan,
>and I am sort of invested in paganism, and men in paganism in
>particular.  So I am asking the deeper questions.  Had you posted this
>sort of stuff elsewhere, I probably would not have invested as much
>time and effort to reply.  

Thanks for maintaining your civility.

>May the Goddess guide your path, Jeff.  Blessed Be. 

BB,

Jeff H...