From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: Biofeedback for meditation training...
Date: 8 Nov 92 15:18:34 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Nov6.205147.5286@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath) writes:
:In article <malcolm.720914929@wrs.com>, malcolm@wrs.com (Malcolm Humes) writes in part:
:|:dn5@apix.psu.edu (D. Jay Newman) writes:
:|:>>>I'm not looking for entrainment devices which "force" the brain
:|:>>>into meditative patterns, but rather something which will help
:|:>>>me learn the proper feelings for the various states of relaxation.
:|:
:|:>I care mainly because I am trying to learn to relax (for various
:|:>reasons.  Using entrainment devices can force the brain into
:|:>the traditional meditative patterns, but they don't help you
:|:>into learning how to mediate without these machines.  I've
:|:>even heard reports thant they make it MORE difficult to
:|:>mediate without the machines.

In my experience, they don't even teach you to meditate. Maybe they
put you in a relaxed state of mind, but that's it.

:|:
:|:Any pointers to actual reports that suggest this? I've heard a few  
:|:people suggest that once you reach a certain state of mind it's easier to 
:|:reach it again, even if getting there through different means.
Lilly, Leary, 

Only in the sense of knowing what it is you're shooting for. If you
have been in a certain state of awareness, all you have to do is
remember it to relive it, to a certain extent. But, imho, I don't
think the states experienced under the influence are really worth
reliving. 

:|:and Kesey are a few folks who have suggested this, I think. And it makes 
:|:sense to me; I'd even go as far as to suggest that the reasons you seek 
:|:biofeedback support this; ie. biofeedback helps you learn to identify or
:|:reach a certain state and once you can recognize that state you can get there
:|:without it. 

The problem I find with this is the assumption that a set of squiggles
on a sheet of paper really tells you anything about one's state of
consciousness. Alpha dominated EEG's doesn't necessarily imply a
meditative state. It could very well mean you have been staring at the
white lines on the highway a little too long.
:
:"State of mind"?  "Getting there"?  "Who" is it that "learns to identify or
:reach a certain state"?

My, what a Buddhist sounding set of questions. :-)

:
:As to the claim that the "entrainment devices can force the brain into
:the traditional meditative patterns"--bunk!  First, there ain't no such
:animal as a 'meditative pattern,' and second there is no reason tothink

could you please support this assertion with something beyond "because
I say so" :-)

:that any given blinking light or beeping tone is actually causing
:entrainment.  And thirdly, "entrainment" is not "biofeedback" and 
:vice versa.
:
I agree with the last statement.

I find that in my own experience, entrainment devices can help alter
one's state of attention. But so can a cigarette, for that matter.
If the goal is relaxation, and you find an entrainment device works
for you, then why not just buy a cheap one, and forget about learning
meditation? Meditation generally requires daily effort, and this is
something that tends to be counterpoised to the mindset that wants a
machine to do it for them.
Don't get me wrong, I like to play with these toys, too. If I could
hook myself up to electrodes and go into samadhi, well, what a
wonderful world it would be! But I think the unsubstantiated claims
far outstrip anything these machines can actually do.

If you want to do biofeedback for relaxation, cheap, try this: go down
to the local Radio Shack, and get a Galvanic Skin Response Meter, or
lie detector. Your skin resistance is correlated to your state of
stress. Then practice some relaxation technique with the device hooked
up, learning to get it to say that you are truthful. You will not only
be able to relax, but you will also be able to pass any lie detector
tests ;).
		-Lorenzo
-- 
"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
					******************************
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness