HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cafer@etek.chalmers.se (Tommy Vaske)
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
Subject: Re: Yang-Lee Zeroes
Keywords: iteration fractal solution transition
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:08:02 GMT
Reply-To: cafer@etek.chalmers.se (Tommy Vaske)
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg, SWEDEN

Thanks for the hints - helped my "understanding" a bit.

And thank you all for not flaming me RTFFAQ-wise on my previous Q;
It's been a while since I last went through the FAQ,
and quaternions are at Q-umpteen-point-something, nowadays...

ObYang-Lee: In other words, the y-l part of _the_beauty..._
seems to be for the people who have deep insight in physical
science, which leaves me out of the competition.


--tommy 
*************************************************************
*       semper idem!        *     "O Frabjous Day!          * 
*  cafer@etek.chalmers.se   *      Callooh! Callay!"   -L.C.*
*************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: tordm@vana (Tord Malmgren)
Subject: Mandebrot-set area (again)
Reply-To: TordM@VanD.PhySto.SE
Organization: Department of Physics, University of Stockholm -- Sweden
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:24:21 GMT


 hello! I just wanted to add something maybe interesting in the area
discussion that was going on some time ago. By using Laurent coeficients
you would get about 1.72, and while counting pixels in a more puterized
version of getting area would give 1.54 or something depending on various
parameters. Now, I just did this assumption... we know that the big blump
at the left of the main cardioid is a circle, which is easily shown, also
that the next biggest blumps are circles (cycles of 3), which also can be
shown easily (if I haven't errored in my calc.). So, I made the assumption
that all blumps directly connected to the main cardioid are circles. Their
connection point and center are easily calculated, also the blumps connected
to the main circle (to the left). If you sum up their areas to some certain
accuracy you'd end up with an area of about 1.71... this gets most of the
big areas.. does anybody know how bad this assumption really is?





---------------+--------------------------------
 Tord Malmgren | InterNet: TordM@VanD.PhySto.SE | These opinions are my own,
               | BITNet  : TordM@SESUF51        | and NOT of this department!
---------------+--------------------------------
 Department of Physics, University of Stockholm 
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: rr@sco.COM (Ronald Joe Record)
Subject: Re: mandelbrot 3d
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:41:07 GMT


cafer@etek.chalmers.se (Tommy Vaske) writes:

Does anybody know of a 3d fractal set, e.g. a 3d mandelbrot?
=============================================================

There are many ways to generate 3d fractal sets. Several other
contributors to this group have pointed out a few. Another 
method which incorporates the Mandelbrot set construction is
to treat the usual Z -> Z^2 + C map of the complex plane as if
it were a map of the real plane into itself. That is, the eqns
would look like :
		
		X -> X^2 - Y^2 + A
		Y -> 2XY + B

Where Z = X + Yi and C = A + Bi .
All that's necessary to extend to 3 dimensions is to add the eqn
for the real Z component. In general, iterates of R^3 into R^3 
can be written as :

		X -> F(X, Y, Z)
		Y -> G(X, Y, Z)
		Z -> H(X, Y, Z)

Make something up !

Another kinda cool way to get 3-D fractals from iterates of maps
is to apply some simple numerical integration scheme to a 3-D flow.
For example, take the Lorenz eqns :

		Xdot = -sX + sY
		Ydot = -XZ + rX - Y
		Zdot = XY - bZ

Where s, r, b are positive constants and dot means differentiation wrt time.
Applying the Euler forward differencing scheme of numerically integrating
these eqns with a time increment t will give a 3-D iterated map which 
approximates the Lorenz eqns and gives rise to a chaotic attractor in 3-D.
-rr-
-- 
Verum est ... quod superius est sicut | The truth is that what is above is like
quod inferius et quod inferius est    | what is below and what is below is
sicut quod superius, ad perpetrando   | like what is above, to accomplish 
miracula rei unius.                   | the miracles of the one thing.
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: bzthomps@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Zac Thompson)
Subject: Re: ARG! How to get fractint
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 02:48:49 GMT

	I don't know what version of fractint you have, but on mine I just set
textsafe=mono and I get 1024x768 just fine...  The text screens are ugly as
herpes, but it still works OK.
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: bx304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff Epler)
Subject: Re: MiniFra5.com
Reply-To: bx304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff Epler)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 14:07:44 GMT


In a previous article, slime@mits.mdata.fi (Sam Laur) says:

>Due to several requests, I'm posting this 134-byte Mandelbrot program for
>PC (8088 is OK) with VGA. No zooming, sorry - the 16-bit integer dynamic
>range is simply too small for that!

What coloring algorythm are you using?  It looks quite weird on my
screen, nothing like FractInt's default (color by iteration.)

I know little enough about asm that I expect not even the commentts to
make sense to me... :)
-- 
|Jeff Epler               Additions Welcome           c(-8 ;-) >{8-) |
| :) (=( =-] (-= Celebrating the variety of faces =-> :^) {-= |-) (: |
| >X^P 8-[                                          Lincoln, Nebraska|
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: slime@mits.mdata.fi (Sam Laur)
Subject: MiniFra5.com
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 05:29:33 GMT

Due to several requests, I'm posting this 134-byte Mandelbrot program for
PC (8088 is OK) with VGA. No zooming, sorry - the 16-bit integer dynamic
range is simply too small for that!


begin 644 minifra5.zip
M4$L#!`H``(`&`'<[%1G(!K8B-`,``%X'```,````34E.2492034N05--#0(!
M$B,4%38W:(F:VSP%!A(31,7VEO=!@@BN=X)$.30ER*EAVX)D&K:N7)`Q<^:4
MZ1(DT;1SZ<I-*[8NW;(@S<HM6Y9M7A#+#Y+L6[<GBF\[.19M6+=GRY)MJ(`9
M.?<-L1Z3O=\DZ[)XRXXAWV'%LBWK`GR))\/.G5NWC?[/U6&LZYHUR^)9)1?D
M`[F1_]RR9\:WFW4M-D^YTD]0ZS-?-TR8:,YG6+ET=60G7>*$B=.&\VX;-JU;
MN'+?@AC^L2#=EAE?X4FU;>%4:S3!ZN^'I3MW+9SL#9<MGNQ.]B[(F3)AG&?!
MB:5ZS%(U=)=)JLTT=:PMFI?QVJO=AHDZA-P@]G,:^:'LSS1+%]MM$@2?.RR;
M>R6_WEVOG/E4.TCS4XM[#6>KN7\:]T`C9^YU6AGN`=T+^T9YIPK-AD_M]@V4
M:PB=MXU65<9VZ3+%$./+6B>(Z6U'>^,1WS##PIB3)6/7L^Q<%MI+.F)8-.J+
M[YJ.X.::OO,P]1YSQC-\FC,\!CC8.?D/TV@1*S0:H7#Z&P[L5E&Z94R7->(W
M&RDVW+PZXFNQ<.(GD?@0JN0M9<3G>.(?CQ0^AJN/Z1J.C#4=BI9JNMJ?8=H)
M+`<46)@H.;Y'];_H4JM8GBO*=YID!.\VF_H>(R]\V[ILT._+4,,T&6Y+269+
M^+!DR2SS.?OAEI45H9C?YAG:I!RT5WUA3[1PU;A8.%.&8@U6S/F'Q2/;\#*J
M'47[7F%TIS#^%L;G%[ZN&#HKN7'P4LQTN"F[F-E#FC*PTLC2QHZA]9V/T6!C
M5V(48Y3Y$M5B7Y=^FBYA:%OG3S8/JN'/G)K0K!E*T\%T*++R.X1<B12*&<F*
M63=M@?XL8/EIZ5@V1E!Z+!O%@'!,?*]\1<J>9E0WFYV&$PM6&=-XMWJ:%KQK
M3$,R.UF$]EL4TV59\"^\%:`3CXWIJ]_.%?,T^'!`P>&FF84E=R'].5M/Z\JT
MD]&V2=ARE-?]!M&)P4>XV9PBU7223"QH$):XO\&H`ESZL]#%F(:0ZS$-,X0X
MU+1)PU"6#8P_XC;/('Z-*KS,&($+P\DQK18%!'V-.1'E)@MGY!+-/P?C8(LZ
M)0KBXEK+25!+`P0*``"``0!Y.Q49E*F"B80```"&````#````$U)3DE&4D$U
M+D-/3>L4``E``(#!@P!P`0#E")@B<(OPP9K0#((O0/YZ`>HW(UDB!P8"?%00
M(%3(:.#NN4`00!$Q1>(&&!O%,A3)`<5&A5R$;84!E@,\L+RWSB7,420!\2/P
MAX"_8'64+0JF:H`+`@'^.1`0H,ZL8P:X#AQ@`VN@?P#TU0%%"T&S$+@&`*@X
M#%!+`0(+``H````&`'<[%1G(!K8B-`,``%X'```,``````````$`(```````
M``!-24Y)1E)!-2Y!4TU02P$""P`*`````0!Y.Q49E*F"B80```"&````#```
M`````````"````!>`P``34E.2492034N0T]-4$L%!@`````"``(`=`````P$
$````````
`
end
-- 
---
 Sam Laur, slime@mits.mdata.fi
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: adamsr@netcom.com (Rick Adams)
Subject: Re: program for mandelbrot set
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 16:10:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Aug18.142603.9780@hippo.ru.ac.za> robin@ruchem.ru.ac.za writes:
>Can anyone tell me where I can ftp a program to calculate and display the 
>mandelbrot set on and oldish IBMPC with 286/287 hardware and EGA screen?
>must be many of them out there!

	Why not just use Fractint - it runs fine on that combination!

	I have it running on my laptop (286/EGA/1MB RAM) and it runs as well
there as it does on my desktop graphics oriented machine.

-- 
    rick.adams on GEnie   /|\        You are right from your side,        
     adamsr@netcom.com  /  |  \        And I am right from mine.          
    adamsr@irie.ais.org \ /|\ /  We're both just one too many mornings,   
   adamsr@norwich.bitnet  \|/  And a thousand miles behind. (c Bob Dylan)
From: frank@cwis.unomaha.edu (Frank Hartranft)
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
Subject: studies in nonlinearity
Summary: New book on Chaos
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:33:38 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha

If you can remember how to work a simple DE and want a fascinating look
into Chaos and nonlinearity, there is a 1992 book out called "An experimental
approach to Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos (isbn 0-201-55441-0)"
It includes a floppy disk for a Macintosh with two of the illustrated
nonlinear programs:  the bouncing ball and the Quadratic Map (the latter
is the population doubling bifurcation).

I found the book through the Science Book Club...

Fascinating (Spock: Stardate 43231.11)

Frank Hartranft

frank@unomaha.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fractals,comp.theory.dynamic-sys
From: starke@rhrk.uni-kl.de (Gerolf J. Starke)
Subject: Re: ftp sites for chaos articles?
Organization: University of Kaiserslautern, Germany
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:27:39 GMT

arnemo@eik.ii.uib.no (Arne Olav Morken) writes:

>Are there any ftp sites containing articles on chaos theory, 
>dynamical systems and fractals ?
>If so, where ? :-)
Try lyapunov.ucsd.edu.
>Arne
Good luck.
Gerolf
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Arne O. Morken        Ph:  +47 5 54 41 99 (work)    HiB
>arnemo@eik.ii.uib.no       +47 5 20 15 48 (home)    Thor Mohlensgt. 55
>"Hi there!", - Eddie  Fax: +47 5 54 41 99           5020 BERGEN, Norway
-- 
Gerolf Starke                                 phone: +49/631/205-2128
Institute of Applied Mechanics                internet: starke@rhrk.uni-kl.de
University of Kaiserslautern, 6750            compuserve: 100010,3451
Germany                                       fax: +49/631/205-3055
Xref: sparky alt.fractals:1333 comp.theory.dynamic-sys:272 sci.econ:6868 sci.geo.fluids:317 sci.math.stat:1682 sci.math:10334 sci.physics:12948 sci.astro:9004 sci.bio:2939 comp.dsp:1957
From: sichase@csa2.lbl.gov (SCOTT I CHASE)
Newsgroups: alt.fractals,comp.theory.dynamic-sys,sci.econ,sci.geo.fluids,sci.math.stat,sci.math,sci.physics,sci.astro,sci.bio,comp.dsp
Subject: Re: Modeling San Francisco Bay
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:10:46 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Distribution: na
Reply-To: sichase@csa2.lbl.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.197
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   

In article <1992Aug17.172354.14781@nas.nasa.gov>, rcarter@gaudi.nas.nasa.gov (Russell L. Carter) writes...
>I'm looking for published research which deals with numerical simulations of
>hydrodynamical models of San Francisco Bay.  I have references to a number
>of papers by Ralph Cheng and Co. at the USGS in Menlo Park; are there
>any others?

I would call the people at the SF Bay Model, somewhere in Marin.  It's a huge,
state of the art scale model of the hydrodynamics of the Bay.  They can go
through many daily and monthly cycles in short order to experimentally
study the effects of pollution, dredging, land fill, contriction of fresh
water inflow due to upstream diversion, etc.  They must have the world's
experts on the subject.

-Scott
--------------------
Scott I. Chase			"The question seems to be of such a character
SICHASE@CSA2.LBL.GOV		that if I should come to life after my death
				and some mathematician were to tell me that it
				had been definitely settled, I think I would
				immediately drop dead again."      - Vandiver
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: robin@ruchem.ru.ac.za
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
Subject: program for mandelbrot set
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:27:35 GMT
Reply-To: robin@ruchem.ru.ac.za
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, SA

Can anyone tell me where I can ftp a program to calculate and display the 
mandelbrot set on and oldish IBMPC with 286/287 hardware and EGA screen?
must be many of them out there!
Robin English
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: phillips@uwa.oz.au (Christopher Phillips)
Subject: Re: MiniFrac 3.01
Keywords: fractal VGA assembly small 
Organization: Elec Eng, Univ of Western Australia
Date: 21 Aug 92 07:02:46 GMT

slime@mits.mdata.fi (Sam Laur) writes:

>Hello. I have made a small fractal program with assembly language for
>PC-compatibles using 386 or higher processors. It also needs a VGA
>display, as it uses only the 320*200*256 screen. But it is 1573 bytes
>long with 10 different fractal types and the source is included.
>I have also made a 134-byte long program which just throws the M-set
>on screen, and it works on 8088, too. But I don't know where to post/send
>them. Could anybody suggest anything? 

If it's that small, you could probably justify posting them here.
What say others?

--
Christopher Jam	__________________________________________________
'Another day, another try.  But remember, SHOOT OR DIE!' -turrican
phillips@swanee.ee.uwa.oz.au		c64 forever!!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: slime@mits.mdata.fi (Sam Laur)
Subject: Re: MiniFra5.com
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 23:13:41 GMT

In a previous article bx304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff Epler) writes:
>
>What coloring algorythm are you using?  It looks quite weird on my
>screen, nothing like FractInt's default (color by iteration.)

Well, it IS coloring by iteration - it's just that the iteration
routine is a bit different from the routines used in most of the
other fractal programs. In fact I don't really know why it does
exactly that - I just played with the iteration routine (which
was, a long time ago, quite normal), took a couple of instructions
away and noticed that it still calculates the M-set as usually,
only the surroundings look different. I guess that the surroundings
could be classed as some Cantor dust, so it is a fractal, too.

-- 
---
 Sam Laur, slime@mits.mdata.fi
From: twegner@mwunix.mitre.org (Timothy Wegner)
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
Subject: Xfract on Next
Keywords: xfract next compile
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:31:40 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

I'd like to hear from anyone who has succeeded or attempted to compile
Xfract105 on the Next machine. Like to know if there are solutions to
problems a friend of mine is having. Please reply to twegner@mwunix.mitre.org
to cut net traffic -- I'll be happy to post a summary if there is interest.
--
Tim Wegner     Fractint co-author
Internet: twegner@mwunix.mitre.org  Compuserve: 71320.675@compuserve.com
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
Subject: Factal Dimension estimator
From: pdbourke@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Paul David Bourke)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:52:27 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.
Keywords: Factal Dimension estimator
Summary: Factal Dimension estimator

My Fractal Dimension Calculator (box method) is now available from
   wuarchive.wustl.edu
located in
   /mirros/architec/Fractals

It runs on any Mac with colour quickdraw. It takes a PICT file or clipboard
PICT and calculates the box dimension. The box sizses are adjustable as
well as the boz mesh offsets. It saves the results as a tab delimited text
file for the users favorite statistical or graphiing package.
Newsgroups: alt.fractals
From: erick@fraser.sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong)
Subject: Re: mandelbrot 3d
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 22:41:57 GMT

cafer@etek.chalmers.se (Tommy Vaske) writes:
>Does anybody know of a 3d fractal set, e.g. a 3d mandelbrot?
>(And I don't mean the graphic presentations using heights
>instead of colours - rather globes instead of circles, and
>an "apple" instead of the main cardioid.)

I saw this mentioned in the latest "Algorithm" journal...The method used was
to vary the exponent (Z <- Z^p + C) and use p as the third dimension.  I didn't
get a chance to carefully read the article, but I seem to recall it saying that
something happened near the integers...Now, I am nowhere near an expert in the
fractal area, but it occured to me that Z^p would not be really well-defined
for non-integral p.  The article used exp(p*ln(Z)), but in the complex numbers
ln(Z) could be one of an infinite number of things (separated by multiples of
2\pi), and if p is not an integer, you'll get different values of exp(p*ln(Z))
depending on which you choose.  But like I said, I didn't read the article that
closely, so this issue might have been brought up in the article itself...If so
I apologize...

-- 
 -- Erick, the perfect square  :-)
From: danl@col.hp.com (Daniel Lockhart)
Subject: Re: Let's Examine our Attitudes
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:48:34 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

This could be an interseting thread if we could get Rob's relatives to post
a note of what happened.  Of course it would have to be from an indepentant
verifiable terminal as not to discredit Rob...... and now the flames will be
directed at the next posting which supposed to be written by David (I believe
that is Rob's sons name).... and it continues.......

	If we were all scientists, we would probably start looking at this
issue by determining where we are as observers.  As we are third or fourth
party connected with the "you're drowning because of your beliefs" act; we
might redirect our energies to a better issue.  It would serve us better to
address who Yeshua is and present G-ds love and plan as and answer to life's
problems.  Fortunately David did not drown, but if he is fighting with a 
past experience would it be better to allow him to get different views of
who Yeshua is instead of basing his understanding on one relatives statements.
I haven't heard anyone yet who will accept Rob's statements as true for all
Jews, can anyone of us speak for all believers in Yeshua?

My prayers are with Rob and his family that they will continue to seek 
and that G-d will open his heart and eyes to His plan.


Daniel
From: hamilton@hydra.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Calvin, Luther, other church fathers, and antisemitism
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:05:15 GMT
Organization: GM Research Labs, Warren, MI


I've noticed several posts accusing Tom Albrecht of antisemitism, one
of which also mentioned my name. Another post tried to separate me
from Tom. Thanks, Laura, but to be consistent, if Tom's Calvinism is
the cause of the charge, then you'd better charge me too. If his Postmillenial
views are the cause, then you have to at least be suspicious of me.
I try to avoid taking strong positions on issues like eschatology that
the worlds greatest theologians have been unable to agree on, but
I'm more sympathetic to the postmillenial view than I am to the other
views.
Tom is more outspoken than I am, and maybe that arouses your ire.
But, instead of heaping criticism on him, why don't you take the
opportunity to learn about Postmillenialism/Calvinism, how you differ from it
and where you agree. You will always have Christians watching a.m.
because many are fascinated by Messianic Judaism (and there's quite
a bit of interest in the non-Messianic variety too). Perhaps we
should just watch, but when we see you say something that varies 
sufficiently from the doctrine we hold, it's only natural to want to know
how you arrive at that position. My respectful suggestion is that you
look at it as an opportunity
to explain and learn rather than an intrusion.
 

So where do I stand? Christian with Calvinist leanings.  I consider
myself one of the wild olive branches grafted onto the root, which is Jesus
Christ. I see the body of Christ, which includes MJ's as the new (spiritual)
Israel. Yet I can't dismiss the fact that God chose the Jews, made
promises to them, and always restored them after disciplining them. So
I would not argue that God does not have in store another restoration
for them. But the means of restoration is now, "believe in the Lord
Jesus Christ and you will be saved," and I would expect that any 
future restoration would have to be one which offers salvation
by belief in Jesus Christ to those who hear.

please reply to hamilton@gmr.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hamilton                  |
GM Res/Env Staff           ----+----
Computer Science Dept.         |      ...all the earth will be filled with
Warren, MI 48090-9055          |      the glory of the LORD. Num 14:21
(313) 986 1474                 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever
- The Westminster Shorter Catechism
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:19:03 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


        -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene <=-
 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Date: 12 Aug 92 13:10:42 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9208121310.AA03960@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RAL>
 RAL> Your typical Christian fundamentalist theological perspective
 RAL> makes it difficult for you to accept the idea of accepted pshat
 RAL> [simple understanding] versus rejected pshat and drush.  The idea
 RAL> of "entirely JEWISH view" doesn't make sense.
      Perhaps not in the context of "entirely" Jewish view; BUT: "a
      valid Judaic view", is an acceptable way to state it!
 RAL> If you look hard enough, you can probably find fifty
 RAL> interpretations on each verse, and an aggada or two.
      True; and a good point, from a Messianic perspective as well.
      For example: In Israel today, there are many Rabbi's who are
      stating that the majority opinion is NOT working in certain
      halachot; and that there should be a trying of the minority
      opinion.
 RAL> But what counts is how widely accepted the interpretation is
 RAL> among those whose greatness in Torah learning is acknowledged.
 RAL> The idea that Is 53 refers to a future messiah is not the
 RAL> accepted view.
      If what counts is how widely accepted the interpretation is
      "among those whose greatness in Torah learningis acknowledged";
      then you will HAVE TO concede that Is. 53 IS ABOUT MESSIAH!  As
      ALL the MOST ancient Rabbinic writings spoke of Is. 53 as being
      about Messiah; and the STANDARD ORTHODOX TODAY remains that Is.
      53 is about Messiah!  It is the Conservative and Reform Rabbis,
      in more recent times, that have adopted the LATER minority
      opinion, that Is. 53 is about "Israel the suffering servant";
      of a "Messianic age".  BUT the Orthodox/Frum DO NOT hold that
      viewpoint, they assert that it IS about the Messiah <period>.
Shabbat shalom

... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210      
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Is Genesis 1:28 one of the 613 Mitzvahs?
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:49:29 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

What do non-messianic and messianic Jews believe concerning this question?
If so, how is the command to be observed?  If not, why not?

-- 
Tom Albrecht