HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nexus@ylum.cgd.ucar.edu (Jeff Berry)
Subject: Re: Colored tape
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 21:43:59 GMT

In article <1992Sep04.210723.14573@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Why do we use colored tape to identify sides in large battles?  By doing
>so, we are introducing a modern solution to a problem that we could be
>solving in medieval ways.  Confusion of sides happened in medieval warfare
>and tournaments, and they developed ways to deal with it: heraldry, war
>cries, and strategies that prevented this kind of confusion.  Am I missing
>something?  If not, why don't we do away with it once and for all?
>===========================================================================
>Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com


Greetings to all and sundry from Alexandre,

Such a little thing he said up there, and yet, I think, quite profound in
its own way.

	The easy counter-argument is that in medieval warfare and tourneys
the participants did it much more often and so such measures worked better.
Or to phrase it in a less flattering way - it's too hard to do without tape.

	But, I can't help but think to myself - how hard would it be, really,
to make up tabards for one's troops, to learn enough heraldry to identify
friendly units - at least those from the kingdom, and so on.

	Not terribly, is my gut reaction.  This idea appeals to me so 
instinctively, I am hard put to say why.

	Here is something, though.  At wars (or Grand Tournaments:-), the most
impressive spectacle in the actual fighting, is seeing the liveried units
march out.  I use liveries here in a very loose sense, units with shields
with the same device count.  If there were no tape, such things might be 
encouraged.

	Arval, what a great idea, that hit me square in a blind-spot.


badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Seneschal of Caer Galen, Outlands
               nexus@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"You're still doing the things that I gave up years ago.."-----Lou Reed
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: History vs. dreams
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 10:55:08 -0500

I loved your tale of the Elf.  I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw it.

On what to do about cross-cultural friction, I have a calandar that I keep in
camp.  In camp, today is late summer, 962.  Out on the road, it's Limbo, and
you're likely to meet all sorts of verrry interesting people there.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Same-sex consorts, homophobia, fun mavins, etc.
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 23:37:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.214605.7505@umr.edu> asparrow@mcs213f.cs.umr.edu (Angelia Sparrow) writes:
>I think the ruling couple does need to be motos,
>for one of the reasons stated: identification.
>I'd have a real problem feeling valuable during
>the reign of a pair of men.  My husband likewise with women.

Gently, milady, gently.

Think, for a moment how those not of your persuasion feel when they
look at thrones under the current system.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: grimmund@edsi.plexus.COM (Grimmund Blackwing)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Medieval Music
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:05:34 GMT

Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:

> TC> in the barn once or twice.  In doing so I saw two books of medieval
> TC> dance music, one blue and one yellow, which are apparently sold by a
> TC> member of the SCA.  I am dying to get my hands on copies of these --
>The blue book may well be "Lord Longwind's......", which is available 
> from Raymond's Quiet Press.  At least, my copy has a blue cover, and 
> that's where I got it.
> (sorry not to e-mail, but you didn't quote your address, and we gate 
>   funny)
> I don't have an address, but they're located in Albuquerque, and they 
> advertise regularly in TI.
>     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth ferch Morfudd
>         Steppes, Ansteorra

> * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)

Raymond the Quiet & Johan Blau
Box 35118
Albuquerque, NM 87176
1-800-766-2071 Orders only
1-050-884-0030 other business

	Their spring catalog was in the drawer, next to my servant of 
letters.  Hope this helps!

Grimmund Blackwing, Chirurgeon; from the Queen's Own
Shire of Windhaven, Northshield, Middle Kingdom   
Usenet:  grimmund@edsi.plexus.com
From: samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Aragonese Fealty ?
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:51:37 GMT
Organization: Gnarsty old tale-teller

In article <1992Sep3.235203.15864@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:
>"We, who are worth as much as you, make you our King and
>Lord, provided that you guard for us our fueros and liberties, and if not,
>not."
>
>Sorry to disappoint, but as a fealty oath, it's a myth.

	Rats!

	. . . And it was such a _nice_ myth -- fiction, you know, is
sometimes _better_ than reality, if not alwaays _stranger_ . . .

:-)


-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com 		      UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Hired chef (was Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:00:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.024429.29713@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>affairs. The War isn't. It's a unique entity that we are still, after twenty

Whup!  It's not a war anymore...  remember?  Please refer to it as the Grand 
Pensic Snit, so as not to offend anyone's delicate sensabilities.	
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
From: boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (boris)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Heraldry and Copyright Law
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 02:17:48 CST
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
> 
> Grammatical note: Where you use the word "armorial", Boris, I think you
> mean "arms" or "armory".  "Arms" is the heraldic device of one person;
> "armory" is a collective referring to many sets of arms.  The noun
> "armorial" means "a list of arms organized by name of the bearers".
> 
A.C. Fox-Davis (as revised by J.P.Brooke-Little, norry and Ulster King of 
Arms ) states:

   Armory is that science of which the rules and the laws govern the use, 
display,meaning, and knowledge of the pictured signs and emblems 
appertaining shield, helmet, or banner. 
   Arms has several meanings. From the heraldic point of view it may mean 
the entire achievement, but usually it is employed in reference to the 
device upon the shield only.
   Whilst arms may exist alone, and the decoration of a shield the only 
form of ARMORIAL ensign of a person, such need not be the case.
   The Act 32 & 33 Victoria, section 19, defines (for the purpose of the 
taxation it enforced ) ARMORIAL bearings to mean and include 'any 
ARMORIAL bearing, crest, or ensign, by whatever name the same shall be 
called, and by whether such ARMORIAL bearing, crest, or ensign shall be 
registered in the College of Arms or not'
   
  End quotes.

  Pardon me for not being technically precise.  By the above quotes I 
present my case. Armorial is a multi-tense word. used to indicate 
(through context ) many devices, I suppose it could be plural in nature.
  I take it to be singular more often than not.  My device of citizenship 
is my S.I.N. number by which the goverment keeps track of me. My commomly 
known public  device is my real name.  My BBS'ing device is the alias 
"boris".  My armorial device is _________. (whatever I have chosen it to  
be as it is unregistered and subject to change upon whim).
  ]
 Armorial : of or pertaining to heraldic arms.
 Armorial : Of or pertaining to heraldry.
 Armorial Bearings : a coat of arms.

  Many artists employ a sigil or similar device to mark their works. That 
would be termed an artistic device.
  A silversmith dates and signs his pieces with special punches. Those 
hallmarks could also be termed signature devices. 
  A coat-of-arms is one form of armorial device. 

  I think you as well have need of a grammatical text, Possibly a 
dictionary. :)    (I know I had to check before rebutting).
 The word I suppose I should have used was a more precise and 
professional term; "achievment".  However this is not a professional 
arena and I make no apologies.
 /

;--- (boris) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
;E-mail: boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca
;system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Royalty as Exemplars (was Re: Same Sex Consorts)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:36:43 GMT

In article <gehA68O00UjUM0j1Zg@andrew.cmu.edu> Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Royalty are supposed to be a representitive and example for us all. 
>
>as an underlying tone ...Maybe I'm misinterpreting....Maybe I've heard
>to much both personally and rumorwise of "If I win tourney, I get to do
>what I want". (Like the "I shouldn't have to travel out of town to get
>crowned because that would be too traumatic for me" statement that a
>prospective royal was rumored to have made recently).  I'd like to see
>an accompaning discussion of "What IS the role of royalty in the SCA,
>and how best to fulfill that role".

This past Saturday, I had the pleasure of talking to Alfred, Prince of
the Mists.  We were looking at the front of the tablecloth that is
part of Mists Regalia and has on it, the arms of every branch in the
Principality.  I asked his highness (in jest) if he'd been to every
branch.  His reply was . . .

	"No.  But by the time we step down, we will have been."

The Mists is not, physically, terribly large, but there are a goodly
number of branches within it.  I, who have lived within what is now
the Principality, nearly as long as the SCA has existed can't claim to
have stopped in every branch in the Principality.  To go to all of
them in 6 months bespeaks a diligent and hardworking Prince--and such
Alfred has been to us.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Organization: University of Tennessee 
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:24:41 GMT

In article <BuFJqw.Jpu@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

[giant snippola]

>cause the SCA says that it's all about history.  The historical re-creation
>wing within the SCA frequently lobbies for increased authenticity in the
>common institutions of the SCA, and many from that wing are convinced that
>all of the SCA ought to pay more attention to history.
>
>And it is this tendency that Hans was lamenting, rather than the development
>of the hobby of re-creating the Middle Ages outside the SCA.

[sig snipped]

That was how _I_ read it.  Hans?  Have we got you?
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: pentacles on arms
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:30:35 GMT

Jason of Rosaria wrote:
  As I understand it, the idea behind discouraging religious/magickal
  symbolism in SCA heraldry is to try not to offend others

  [ . . . ]

  The way the rules for submission are currently written, religious/magickal
  symbols are not banned -per se-. But they are recommended against where it
  might be taken as offensive to a large number of people.

Correct me if I am wrong (especially Arval), but the Rules of Submission,
as written, don't allow a herald to encourage or discourage squat.  We
can return any armory that *is* offensive.  And, the precedents at Laurel
level tend to be on the conservative side of what is offensive.  I
understand that one's standard of offense is different, depending on
where you live, and your background. But: "Could be offensive" is not
a basis for return.  "Is offensive" is a basis for return.

Jason also wrote:
  There IS a ban on carrying magical talismans into combat, which is in Copora.

There is not.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:07:56 GMT

In article <3432@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
>>>Remember the film "The Graduate"?  Dustin Hoffman's intro to the big time?
>>>At the end, there's a scene where he's running across the Golden Gate
>>>Bridge.  From what I've been told, to get a better shot, they reversed the 
>>>directions of traffic on the two levels of the bridge.
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>This will support your thesis . . .
>>
>>That was the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.  They should him
>>driving *from* SF on the top deck.  Going from SF, the traffic is on
>>the lower deck.  
>>
>>(The Golden Gate Bridge has only *one* deck.)
>
>Oh well -- Thanks for the correction!  Anyhow, it's better than most
>urban myths do.  (I vaguely and distantly remember reading about it,
>but it was megayears ago, and I'm from the wrong side of the country...)
>
>Anyhow, the audiences in the Bay area reacted badly....
>
>Fictions are fragile -- ours included!

No! No!  Don't be upset!  You got it *very* close to being right.  The
movie *was* cut to have them driving the wrong way on the top deck of
the Bay Bridge.  It really was a bridge connecting Oakland and San
Francisco.  You just got the name of the bridge wrong.

(For all I know, you live in an area with few or no major bridges.
There are a total of 8 toll bridges in the entire state of
Calfornia--the only 'toll roads' we have--seven of those bridges are
in the Bay Area.)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Financing Kingdoms - was Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Keywords: money
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:00:10 GMT

Michael Squires wrote
  This is all part of a more general problem - the SCA, Inc., and the Kingdoms
  are seriously underfunded.  It is a rule of thumb that a non-profit needs
  to have 2 1/2 years operating funds in the bank, and I don't think that
  the SCA Inc. has nearly this amount.

Well, I'm not sure where you got that "rule of thumb", and I suspect it is
a bit fiscally conservative.  Nonetheless, the SCA has a damn site less
than that in the bank.

If you look carefully at the Board Minutes Financial Summary, you can see
that the SCA earns "Investment Income".  Let's presume that we expect to
earn 5% this fiscal year.  That means the SCA has in the bank:

  20 * $6,500 = $130,000

Which, it would seem, is a large chunk of change.  However, the SCA's total
expenses (estimated) for 1992, are $602,371 as of June, 1992.  We have
a cash reserve of a little over 2.5 months.

Even the SCA followed the standard investment advice for individuals, of
6 months salary in the bank, we'd be running a bit short of that goal.

	Tibor (just the facts, Ma'am)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lecin@pilot.njin.NET ("Matthew J. Lecin")
Subject: George Romero, Knight Riders
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 11:38:23 GMT

Aryk says:

    >So George Romero was in Pittsburgh, filming a _Dead_ movie or
    >something.  And somebody tells him that if he just goes up to
    >Slip'ry Rock, he can see this big neat gathering.  So he goes.
    >And, incognito, he spends some time there.  And then he makes
    >this movie about people who make a living jousting on
    >motorcycles.

I beg to differ.  I don't know whether or not he ever made it to a Pennsic, but
he was in attendance at the "infamous" Crown Tourney that was held in Pittsburg
- the one which resulted in the founding of the MSR.  This event is what is
parabled in Knight Riders.

Mitchell MacBain, Marwick, East.

 _  _  _              | "What you want, what you're hanging around in the world
' )' )' )   Semper    |  waiting for, is for something to occur to you."
 /  /  /    Esuriens  |
/     (_'             |                                         -- Robert Frost
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: UCCXDEM <UCCXDEM@MVS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
Organization: Oklahoma State University Computer Center
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:26:00 GMT

>donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
>
><description of span of "period" deleted>
>
>>....You can see that depending on WHERE you are in the world,
>>that can cover a lot of spiritual ground. Plenty of room for a Pagan
>>to find a home prior to the introduction (or assault) of Christianity.
>>
>>I prefer to place myself as an 8th Cent. Irish Brewer and Troubador.
>>(Yes I know that means 700's) This should give me plenty of room to
>>live my faith as well as The Dream(tm).
>Hmmmm...pardon my vast ignorance, but if you'd have asked me, I'd have
>thought that Ireland was pretty well Christianized by the 8th century,
>with the exception of the the Viking settlements.  I seem to recall
>reading somewhere that Ireland was exporting missionaries to the cont-
>inent about this time.  Any real Ireland buffs out there?
>
>Rob Dean
>(sometime Byzantinist)
Rob,
You are correct. Ireland was 'christianized' by the 8th century. The
first monk showed up in the 5th century. The Public Broadcasting
system had a good show on Ireland last night. Also for more references
you can research on two early Irish saints, Ciaran and Brendan.
                                                Herr Marke
P.S. You might ask what does a german do with Irish History?
 Answer: If you know your customer's background, you can sell
 them anything.
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Time period
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:59:26

 TN> The lower edge is much trickier.  This is the first time I have heard
 TN> 800 cited; but this particular issue tends to be 
 TN> very sensitive to location
 TN> within the SCA, because there is no official published lower bound.
 TN> I have heard many, many references to a Board-of-
 TN> Directors decision back 
 TN> when the world was young that the bottom end is 
 TN> 600; but unless you have 
Hmmm.  I'd heard that that lower edge limit comes from "Queen Carol's 
 Guide" (or something like that) that was sold by the Stock Clerk.  
 Those who used this tome rather than Corpora believe in the beginning 
 date of 600.  At least, those who've quoted me a beginning date in 
 person usually got it from that source.  Where Queen Carol got it is 
 another matter entirely........
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth (but Roman is so sensible in the Anst. summers) 

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Bruce.C..Ruiz@f70.n3601.z1.fidonet.org (Bruce C. Ruiz)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: NEED CONTACT IN CO SPRINGS PLEASE
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:27:16 -0500

I need contacts for the Colorado Springs area... I have a brother living there
now that would like to join the SCA there but has not found any local SCAers.

Thanks in advance, 
                        Bryn ab Urien Ysgolhaig (mka Bruce C. Ruiz)


Please respond as soon as possible to:
*******************************************************************************
Lt. Bruce C. Ruiz, Civil Air Patrol    *  Internet: Jareth@maple.circa.ufl.edu
LTjg. Bruce C. Ruiz, Starfleet Command *  University of Florida @
(904)392-5613Bryn ab Urien Ysgolhaig, SCA           *
PO Box 2761                            *  Fido-net: 1:3601/70 (Bruce C. Ruiz)
Gainesville, FL   32602-2761           *  The Warlock's Castle @ (904)378-6403
************  Generic Disclaimer!!! Don't get even, get vertical!  ************

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca