HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: an330@anon.penet.fi (Dawn)
Subject: Time for a FAQ?
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:27:58 GMT

I tried this before, let's have another go.  Is something
wrong with anon.penet.fi?

Hi, all.

Well, this is a great newsgroup - lots of fun.  Maybe it's
time to think about putting together a "Frequently Asked Questions"
sheet - not that I'm volunteering. :-)

A few ideas:

- Definitions of transvestism, transsexuality, etc.
- Resources such as book lists, adresses of organizations, etc.
- Clothing and makeup tips

Here's a dressing tip to kick it off - I've never seen this anywhere
else, but maybe others will find it useful:

I'm fairly small and slim, so regular-sized women's clothes fit me
fine.  But the problem I have is a lack of hips - I'm just too
"straight".  My solution was to buy four extra-large shoulder pads,
and sew pairs of them together like this:

    |\
    | \
    |  \
    +---+  <--- sew along this line (side view of pads)
    |  /
    | /
    |/

A couple of these triangular-shaped pieces under pantyhose and a skirt
makes me look nice and rounded!  Also, if you need to enhance your
hips, a skirt with ruffles or layers, or any full skirt, will work.
Avoid straight skirts, or single-colour beltless dresses.

As for idiots who rant and rave against TV's or TS's, please, ignore
them.  Just learn to use a kill file for your newsreader, and prevent
long bouts of flames from causing alt.transgendered to degenerate.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Please note you _don't_ have to have an anon id to receive anonymous mail!
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Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: Me? Clueless? Naaah :)
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:38:02 GMT

rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:

>After all, when you define yourself as a straight vanilla type for
>close to 21 years and you suddenly find you're wrong, you start
>considering what else about you you sort of took for granted ...

i made it well past 23 before i realized otherwise.  denial is a
wonderful thing.  no wonder i've been so damn depressed for the last
10 years or so (curious how depression onset coincides with puberty)..

in the last three years or so i've come to realize my personal
conceptions of my religion, my sexuality, and my gender (along with a
shitload of other stuff) were all wrong.  it wasn't that long ago that
i was claiming that homosexuality was a psychological aberration that
should be treated and cured...  of course, i was a republican then
too. :)

>What is a TG? Saying "It is a person who self-labels as a woman," to
>me, isn't enough.

it's wrong, too.  a genetic female who self-labels as a woman is not a
transgender.

>I can _accept_ that.  I can _respect_ that.  I can call this person
>by her chosen name, refer to her as 'she', and accept her as a woman
>...

good.  :)

>But there's this frustrating barrier of understanding that stands
>between me and TG.  To me, accepting TG isn't enough.  I want to
>understand it, if I can.  I will acquiesce if you tell me I cannot,
>but I would like to try ...

*i* don't understand it, and i'm definitely transgender.  you expect
me to explain it to you? *sigh*

kelly, the vociferous peanut. :)
--
Most system flaws can be attributed to unwarrantedly anthropomorphizing the
user.
	-- T.C.Bennett@syse.salford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an299@anon.penet.fi (Judy)
Subject: trouble with anon service
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 08:03:09 GMT

I have been trying to post stuff through the anon service
but it is not getting through.  I should copy it to me
and try it again another time eh?  Too bad those messages
got lost.  They were pretty good.

Judy (|)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Please note you _don't_ have to have an anon id to receive anonymous mail!
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From: wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us (Wendy)
Date: 18 Dec 92 06:42:58 GMT
Subject: Wendy's visiting Peter Pan..:-)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Organization: Wendy's world
Summary: 
Keywords: 
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Hi, 

Just a quick note for any that want email me, or followup to my
posts. I will be visiting Never Never Land and my old friend Peter
Pan until 1/3/93 (in other words, Disney World). Note I own a home
in Florida so I won't have to spend a fortune doing this.

So all of you have a joyous holiday season and a happy new year.

Love to you all, but especially my sister Celeste!!

Wendy
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: WHY?
Date: 21 Dec 92 03:55:29 GMT
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United

ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley) writes:

[some time ago, i (kelly martin) wrote:]

|certainly not a matter of choice.  i would gladly give up being
|transsexual if there was any way i could do so and still remain sane,
|just because being TS is a royal pain in the ass.  however, i've

>Excuse me for butting in where I perhaps do not belong, but isn't
>this EXACTLY the attitude we need to conciously replace with a
>positive affinity?  Internalized homophobia shame, and self hatred
>are huge problems in the Gay community and I don't see any value in
>perpetuating them in the Transgender community.

>I've never hated being Gay, and I wouldn't change it for anything; in
>my opinion, internalizing the attitude that being WHAT YOU ARE (in
>this case Transgender) is something you'd change if only you could is
>not the most empowering way to relate to your Transgender identity.

>This is not to deny the fact that the dominant culture hands anyone
>who doesn't play by the gender rules a rather large portion of s---,
>but I see no value in internalizing THEIR destructive attitudes about
>US.

it has nothing to do with culture/society.  even if society was
totally accepting of transsexuals, didn't discriminate against us in
any way.  there would still be the conflict between who i am in my
mind and who i am in my body.  

in a way, it's a lot like being born with a birth defect.

i understand from whence you are coming, but i don't think it applies
in this case.

kelly
--
You're damn right we need a rational code of morality and ethics.  But not
much progress can be made in that direction while we've still got a majority
ranting about gods, devils, souls, and absolute morality, and using an ancient
book written by ignorant nomads as a guide.  -- Doug Graham (dgraham@bnr.ca)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel)
Subject: Re: WHY?
Reply-To: ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:23:14 GMT


In a previous article, wdickeson@mta.ca () says:

> I HATE TO HAVE TO ASK YOU THIS BUT WHY IN GOD'S NAME WOULD
>ANYONE CHOOSE TO BE A CROSS-DRESSER?  
We don't choose; God made us this way.

NOT ONLY IS IT IMMORAL,
>UN-NATURAL,AND SINFULL, IT IS JUST PLAIN PERVERTED!!!!!!!!
Don't be silly.

>LET'S FACE THE FACTS - YOU ARE WHAT GOD CREATED YOU TO BE-
>EITHER A MAN OR A WOMAN! 
Or sometimes both.

WHAT KIND OF BLASPHEMOUS SINNERS ARE
>YOU EXPECTING TO INTERFERE WITH GOD'S POWER. 
What kind do we have to be?

YOU SURE AS HELL CAN'T
>BE BOTH GENDERS THAT'S FOR SURE.
Who says?

>   STOP FOOLING YOURSELVES AND COME BACK TO THE REAL WORLD.
My world is real; I just see it from two viewpoints.

>ATTEMPTING TO BE SOMETHING YOU'RE NOT (WHICH IS WHAT YOU'RE DOING)
Actually, I am attempting to be what I really am.

>IMPLIES DIRECTLY THAT YOU ARE SOMEHOW DISAPPOINTED WITH WHAT
>GOD CREATED YOU TO BE.
I am quite happy with what She did.

>   WE ARE ALL BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE IN OUR OWN RIGHT AND THE SOONER 
>YOU GAIN THE SELF-CONFIDENCE TO REALIZE THAT THE REAL YOU IS GOOD 
>ENOUGH FOR US ALL, THE BETTER OFF YOU'LL BE.
Right you are!  BTW, would you be confident enough to wear a dress in public?

>   IN SHORT, TAKE THE DRESSES OFF YOU GAY IMMORAL FREAKS!!!
You would prefer that we be nacked?  Shame on you!

Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Lorraine Lee)
Subject: SF cons as CD-safe zone??
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:21:02 GMT

In article <1gttqkINNc4m@im4u.cs.utexas.edu>, russw@cs.utexas.edu (Russ Williams) writes:

...

>I've recently done public crossdressing for the first time.  It was
>exciting, liberating, fun, and more.  I don't plan (or desire) to crossdress
>every day like many of the posters here, so I can't speak about that,
>but Sally, I suggest you consider taking advantage of special occasions
>like halloween or sf conventions to try public crossdressing.  It
>worked for me... Also, I found that my friends were much cooler about
>it than I thought they'd be; silly me, I wasn't giving them the credit
>they deserved.  In fact I got no bad reactions.  No doubt this is partly
>due from doing it at a con, and several times in the week leading up
>to Halloween, so it was more socially acceptable.  People were nonetheless
>surprised and intrigued.  It was fun!

SF conventions??  I'm not hip to the SF scene.  Please clue me in on this.


Lorraine
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: vyxter@ftp.com  (Vicki Streiff)
Subject: Re: WHY?
Nntp-Software: PC/TCP NNTP
Keywords: Non-flame, might belong in a FAQ
Reply-To: vyxter@ftp.com
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., Wakefield, MA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:15:04

just read d'glenn's (hi d'glenn!) response to all the silly flaming.
that was lovely.  i enjoyed reading it.  i'm sure that the screamer
who posted the original flame is long gone and hasn't read a single
reply to his/her (i don't read flames and don't remember who posts
them) silly and hurtful message, but i'm sure responses like that will
help a lot of those who were hurt by the original.

anyway, i decided to reply because i have a question.  i know d'glenn
personally (and he really is as gentle, thoughtful and caring as he
seems here, friends) but i wanted to post publicly my appreciation of
his post and ask this question publicly also.  this question,
therefore, is also directly to other full-time crossdressers.

prelude: 
i feel most comfortable in jeans and a "nice" weather-appropriate
shirt, most of the time.  occasionally i'll wear a skirt to work.  as
i am biologically female this rarely leads to comments other than
"you look nice today". (and i do tend to resent this sort of societal
re-enforcement of acceptability and normalcy, but that's food for
another thought. :)  i can wear whatever i want to work, so jeans
aren't a problem.  however, when i applied for the job, i was in full
drag.  in other words, i wore a woman's business suit, a lace blouse,
pantyhose, and heels.  i was very uncomfortable, but i knew that was
appropriate interview attire, and i wore it.

question:
if a full-time crossdresser is applying for a job at a company where
sie knows cross-dressing won't be a problem, what would sie wear to 
the interview?
--
love and spice,
		--vyxter
From: wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us (Wendy)
Date: 13 Dec 92 00:48:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Hello Girls
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Organization: Wendy's world
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

an2069@anon.penet.fi wrote:
: 
:   I'm glad I found this group!
:   
:   I am thinking about going under the name Vickie. I am a hetrosexual male,
: who likes to CD for the sexual pleasure of it. I am not gay, and though I
: sometimes fantasize about being a woman and being handled by a man, I generally
: don't go in that direction. I am married, with two kids and my wife thinks I am
: 'over' this from before we first met. When I was single, I used to dress up in
: the house, but never went out. Noone knows this about me, except my wife, and
: that discussion was so short, she may have forgotten. Except for slipping into
: my wife's panties or baby doll, on occasion, I no longer dress up. I like wearing all kinds of woman's under clothing and sleep wear. BTW, I am UGLY as a 
: woman.  
:   
: Thanks for the chance to talk, I look forward to being a 'girl' on this list
:   
: Love Vickie
: -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, welcome. I know its hard with wife and kids. I'm a pre-op TS and
have been married 23 years and have a daughter 21. It can be difficult.
But here, your one of the "girls". So enjoy.

Love,

Wendy
From: glenn@access.digex.com (D. Glenn Arthur Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: a question
Date: 19 Dec 1992 01:29:42 GMT
Organization: The Space-Time Fabrication Institute, Rockville, MD.
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <SCG.92Dec16023648@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>kogutt@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (REMY) writes:
>>I have a question.  What is the difference (if there is one)
>>between a "queen" and a male TV that is gay (I mean that is not a
>>TS)?  
>A "drag queen" generally doesn't try to pass (they tend to
>exaggerate).  This is not at all true of all MTF TVs, gay or not.

Out of curiosity, does that make me, a het M->F TV who goes out
in public dressed but doesn't try to pass, a drag queen, or 
would that label only apply if I were gay?  I've always thought
the phrase implied homosexuallity, but I've never been completely
certain.

(Not like I really _need_ one more label -- "TV" seems to fit me
well enough much of the time (though it's not really close to 
descriptive until you get to "Born again Christian, transvestite,
guitarist, computer programmer, science fiction fan, ..." -- well
I'm sure y'all get the idea.)


-- 
D. Glenn Arthur Jr., The Human Vibrator, new address:  glenn@digex.com
"Being a _man_ means knowing that one has a choice not to act like a 'man'."

You can email me anonymously as an3382@anon.penet.fi or wi.6454@n7kbt.rain.com.
From: an330@anon.penet.fi (Dawn)
Subject: Time for a FAQ?
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:27:58 GMT

I tried this before, let's have another go.  Is something
wrong with anon.penet.fi?

Hi, all.

Well, this is a great newsgroup - lots of fun.  Maybe it's
time to think about putting together a "Frequently Asked Questions"
sheet - not that I'm volunteering. :-)

A few ideas:

- Definitions of transvestism, transsexuality, etc.
- Resources such as book lists, adresses of organizations, etc.
- Clothing and makeup tips

Here's a dressing tip to kick it off - I've never seen this anywhere
else, but maybe others will find it useful:

I'm fairly small and slim, so regular-sized women's clothes fit me
fine.  But the problem I have is a lack of hips - I'm just too
"straight".  My solution was to buy four extra-large shoulder pads,
and sew pairs of them together like this:

    |\
    | \
    |  \
    +---+  <--- sew along this line (side view of pads)
    |  /
    | /
    |/

A couple of these triangular-shaped pieces under pantyhose and a skirt
makes me look nice and rounded!  Also, if you need to enhance your
hips, a skirt with ruffles or layers, or any full skirt, will work.
Avoid straight skirts, or single-colour beltless dresses.

As for idiots who rant and rave against TV's or TS's, please, ignore
them.  Just learn to use a kill file for your newsreader, and prevent
long bouts of flames from causing alt.transgendered to degenerate.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Please note you _don't_ have to have an anon id to receive anonymous mail!
To see how your anonymized message would appear, mail it to test@anon.penet.fi
From: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Me? Clueless? Naaah :)
Date: 17 Dec 1992 03:24:16 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec16.231452.13305@colorado.edu> devin@frodo.Colorado.EDU (Sonja Orlavski) writes:

->
->D.Glenn made a good point earlier that applies.  People have certain things
->that they just accept about the world, and tend to be surprised when other
->people don't feel/act/think that way.  Those fundamental assumptions, the
->axioms of one's being if you will, are very difficult to explain to someone
->else.
->
->Someone somewhat glibly responded to your question 'How does one
->self-identify as a woman' with the statement "I am a woman."  Sounds kinda
->silly, but that's about it.  When one of your fundamental axioms about
->your world is that your gender is such-and-such (male, female, both, neither,
->other, whatever), it becomes very difficult to explain why.  It just is.

I can see your point, though I'm not sure I agree with it.

You see, I don't know if just taking these axioms of one's being without
thinking about them is the best way.  For me, at least.  

You see, the first time I challenged my axiom ("I'm straight") I found that
it was wrong ... 

*sigh* I can understand where you're coming from... The problem is that
I can't _justify_ saying "I am a man," because I don't _know_ what
that means (I know what living in a man's body is, though).  I was hoping
that people who have thought of this more than I have (and I assume[d] that
y'all would) would know more than I do ... 

->Gender roles and gender identification are related, but not the same.

Pardon me.  You're right, of course ... my identification is male/man, my
role ... *laugh* Never was quite as manly as my peers would have wished :)

-roy
-- 
Roy S. Rapoport     internet: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu      bitnet: rsrsoda@ucbocf
"What I used to think is me ... is just a faded memory ... " -NIN
DISCLAIMER:  I speak for the University of California at Berkeley.  Rrrright.
From: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: You bunch of freaks
Date: 16 Dec 92 10:50:12 GMT
Reply-To: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Organization: Chemical & Process Engineering Dept, University of Newcastle, UK.

Thomas.Weihrich@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (Thomas Weihrich) writes:

>Please note that insults in public may lead to prosecution by your local
>law enforcement agency. 
Are you sure this applies to the UK?  I thought if someone insulted uou
in the UK you can take them to court and sue them, but as it is a 
civil not a criminal offence the police won't do it for you.

  Are you saying in Germany insulting someone in public can lead to the
police prosecuting you?
From: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: WHY?
Date: 16 Dec 92 16:56:26 GMT
Reply-To: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Organization: Chemical & Process Engineering Dept, University of Newcastle, UK.

wdickeson@mta.ca writes:
>EXCUSE ME! WHEN DID I EVER SAY THAT THE SCOTS WERE PERVERTS? IN THEIR 
>DISTINCT CULTURE AND HERITAGE (OF WHICH SOME OF MY ANCESTORS COME FROM!)
>IT IS THEIR WAY FOR MEN TO WEAR KILTS AND WOMEN TO WEAR PANTS! THAT IS NOT
>THE WAY IT IS HERE HOWEVER WHERE THE SOCIAL AND MORAL IMPLICATIONS ARE 
>MUCH MORE DETAILED. IN OUR CULTURE, MEN DON'T WEAR DRESSES WHEN OF SANE 
>MIND AND PEACE WITH GOD. WE'LL SEE WHOSE MORALS STAND UP TO JUDGEMENT
>BY GOD (WHICH BY THE WAY, I DO HOPE YOU CAN PASS-SINCERELY-BUT I WOULD 
>LOOK OVER YOUR MORALS IF YOU HOPE TO DO SO, TOO) GOD WILL LET US KNOW 
>ABOUT THIS ONE IN THE AFTER-LIFE- 'NUFF SAID

  Are you serious?  YOu seem to be argueing that God says it's okay for
men to wear skirts in Scotland but not in your country.  So if a TV man
goes from your country to Scotland what they are doing is no longer a
sin.

  Just WHERE in the bible does it specify that skirts are women's clothing.
 100 years ago most westerners might have argued that it was perverted for
 woment to wear trousers, few I expect would argue that way now.
From: devin@frodo.Colorado.EDU (Sonja Orlavski)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: lesbian + MTF TS
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:59:11 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Margo Burns (mburns@usc.edu) wrote:
: 	This is my first posting here, but I have been reading this newsgroup 
: for a while now because I am a lesbian who is dating a pre-op MTF TS, and it's
: not something that I have been entirely prepared for...
[text deleted]

Two things:  First, it's nice to see someone being accepting enough of
someone's REAL self to have a relationship with them as themselves.
Congratulations on entering into what can be a fascinating experience!

Secondly, you ask for information, but you don't really specify what.
You're welcome to email me with specific questions if you like.  Just
wanted to let you know.  (Though if they're general questions, you might
want to post them to the net as well, so you get a more diverse answer.)

			-Deb

--
Deborah Parks (RP90)  (SotM 7/91)  DoD #0034  deb@boulder.colorado.edu   ------
"It's being both that's a bitch."                                      --\--- /
"I wanted to take my brain to hell and back and see what I had left."  \  \ //
"This howling in the distance, it's a captivating sound.                \  \/
        Can't tell if it's ecstasy or pain..."  -DW                      \/
From: spl@pitstop.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: WHY?
Date: 15 Dec 1992 17:03:54 GMT
Organization: University of Calif., San Diego/Microscopy and Imaging Resource
NNTP-Posting-Host: pitstop.ucsd.edu

In article <rsvanc00.724416161@mik.uky.edu> rsvanc00@nx34.mik.uky.edu (Randolph S. Vance) writes:
>I didn't think that the Scots were PERVERTED, perhaps my viewpoint is 
>self-centered, is there anyone out there who thinks that the Scottish 
>are PERVERTED? ...

Of course they are.  Who else would eat haggis and play the bagpipes?

:-)

							spl

-- 
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
Where is the summer, the unimaginable
Zero summer?                 - T.S. Eliot, "Little Gidding"
From: mburns@usc.edu (Margo Burns)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: lesbian + MTF TS
Date: 16 Dec 1992 02:09:36 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

Dear folks,
	This is my first posting here, but I have been reading this newsgroup 
for a while now because I am a lesbian who is dating a pre-op MTF TS, and it's
not something that I have been entirely prepared for, although I have a friend
who is in a similar relationship, and we talk a lot.  I was hoping to hear more
exchange of ideas and common issues instead of all these responses to such
horrid postings (I sent my reply back directly rather than clutter up your
mailboxes...).  I mean, it's a little difficult for me at times because even 
though she IS a woman, there is still a major gender-marker which is obvious
to me in intimate moments.  Granted, the hormones render it sexually 
inoperative, but even that is odd for me -- she has no functioning genitalia 
of either gender.  I know she is going through some kind of body-awareness
therapy, and she has achieved orgasms with me, but it is just a little new and
confusing for me.  Our relationship is so new that I don't want her to
mistake my confusion for any kind of aversion or anything.  But I do want to
gather more information so I don't feel quite so ignorant.  We do talk -- a lot
-- but as I said, it is still a new relationship and it's hard for me to 
discuss this in a great deal of depth yet.  
			Cheers,
				Margo

Newsgroups: alt.transgendered