HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Richard.Mathews@West.Sun.COM (Richard M. Mathews)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: CLINTON ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:01:46 GMT
Organization: Sunsoft Inc., Los Angeles, CA.
NNTP-Posting-Host: smaug.West.Sun.COM

cza@troy.uucp (22141-akgun) writes:
>If there are more than 1 million Turks are
>living in U.S. as potential voters, "slick" Willy, as
>they call him at this neck of the woods, would sing a 
>different tune.

How many Turks are there living in the U.S.?  The most applicable data
I have say that 402,000 U.S. immigrants from 1820-1989 had Turkey as
their country of last residence.  Including the descendants of those
immigrants, I would crudely guess that the current number of U.S.
residents of Turkish descent would be around a million.  Viewed another
way, immigration from Turkey has run at about 0.7% of all immigration, so
it would not be surprising if around 0.7% of the country was of Turkish
descent which implies the number might be several million.  If the number
is anywhere near or above a million, that clearly proves your statement
false because Clinton isn't singing a different tune.  Even if the number
of Turks is well under a million, you have no evidence to support your
wild claim.

    Richard M. Mathews			 Freedom for Lithuania
Richard.Mathews@West.Sun.COM		        Laisve!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Baltic boshevicks)
From: verbit@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 2 Sep 92 04:38:14 EDT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Sep1.160046.10936@gtech.com> ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov) writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.083308.24296@nntp.hut.fi> f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:
>>Why isn't there any concern about
>>treatment of Russians in Tadzhikistan or Kazakhstan? Is it because 
>>ethnic Russians are treated so much better in these countries? Or is it
>>because the media never tell us how's life in Turkmenistan?

>It is my personal opinion: I do not expect anything reasonable from Tadzikistn
>and Turkmenistan. However, I do expect it from Baltic states.

And you are wrong (well, sort of). Estonians got their literature
only in 19th century, Latvians more or less the same time. It is
a lot later than Tadjiks or even Turkmens. In Estonia, there were
more than 90% illiterate Estonians before 1918. All power
belonged to Germans, even Russians were discriminated against.
In Latvia, it was slightly better, but even there were less
literate Latvians than in Tadjikistan - literate Tadjiks.

Lithuania is an exception, of course: they have had no less
immense culture than any other mature European people. Not a wonder that
a situation in Lithuania is better than in other two Baltics countries.

Misha.
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Democratic Estonia
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:26:03 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Aug31.183621.11418@ctr.columbia.edu> boris@cashew.ctr.columbia.edu (Boris Varshavsky) writes:

> Recently somebody here (Mark Hubey?) mentioned 1809-1917 as a period
> of colonization of Finland by Russia. It provoced me to the question:


Maybe a minor correction, but I was not the one who wrote about
colonization of Finland.
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
From: viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: The revival of the "Moldavian" language and "democratic" Estonia
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:43:37 EDT

In article <1992Aug31.155207.1265@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
> In today's RFE/RL report we find:
> )"DNIESTER REPUBLIC" TO REIMPOSE RUSSIAN SCRIPT ON "MOLDOVAN
> )LANGUAGE." A draft "law on languages," currently before the
> )"Dniester Republic Supreme Soviet," would reimpose the Russian
> )alphabet for the "Moldovan language" (i.e.  Romanian) in schools
> )there, Radio Rossii reported on 24 August.  Moldovan schools in
> )that area switched to the Latin script following its
> )reinstatement in Moldova in 1989, and have since resisted the
> )"Dniester" authorities' orders to return the "Moldovan language"
> )to the Russian alphabet.  The proposed measure would give the
> )"Dniester" Russian authorities a pseudo-legal basis for enforcing
> )compliance.  (Vladimir Socor, RFE/RL Inc.)
> 
> Well, those Transdniestr guys never looked like any nice guys to me,
> rather old-timers who are fighting to preserve their power. OK,
> Vinzyuk we're know you're sensitive about language laws, can we
> hear you scream "fascism" once more? Or is it OK when Russians are
> playing such games?                  

  Well, dear Erland, why don't you explain me at first why you drag me
to soc.culture.romania ? Especially when hardly anybody at that list
knows the context of our previous  articles ?  What about good manners ?
  Now back to your questions: as you might be aware, "TransDniester"
republic is not Russia. Russians are not even in majority there. So I was
slightly embarrased when you wrote "or is it OK when Russians are
playing such games?". So whom, by your opinion, should I call "fascist"
there ?
  Ditto: even though I have never considered "TransDniester" republic as
an example of democracy, still there is no comparison in these terms
between it and "democratic" Estonia. As you noted yourself, the
question in "TransDniester" republic is HOW to teach Moldavian
language, while in "democratic" Estonia the question is "to teach
or not to teach Russian at all". Besides, whom do you call
"old-timers who are fighting to preserve their power" ?  I supposed
you meant President of Moldova x-communist Mircea Snegur ? Or
his former Primer-Minister x-communist and x-KGB officer Mircea
Drug, who is now balloting for Romanian Presidency ? ..even though,
as noted Russian TV, he has no chances to win...

  As I see, you, Mr. Sommarskog, are skipping those
parts of my articles, which you feel uneasy to reply to, ah ?
In particular, I'm still waiting for you answer on my
question, why do you consider the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh
as having rights to seceede from Azerbajzhan, because
as you asserted, they voted for it, while apparently
you consider the people in e.g. TransDniester republic
as NOT having such right ?  What about honesty ?
S.V.

> Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
> F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Confederaion of the Mountain Peoples
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:41:55 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 08:20:26 GMT
>From: "Mikhail S. Verbitsky" <verbit@ZARISKI.HARVARD.EDU>


>There are four kinds of different ethnic peoples in Abkhazia:
>Georgian-Mingrels (~20-30%) - supporters of Gamsahurdia,
>"real" Georgians - (~10-20%) - supporters of Tbilisi goverment
>Russians (~10-20%) - well, they are trying to move away now,
>	and support nobody in particular
>Abkhazians (~30-40%) - support Sukhumi goverment.


Large number of so-called "Russians" are in fact Greeks and Armenians,
who aren't trying to move away, since they have nowhere to move.
Also I think fugures are slightly inexact.


>Dudaev
>is in fact a bad politician: he is too sincere and
>his head is too hot for this. He has nothing against Russians
>in particular (I have read a lot of his interviews),
>only against the current goverment.

Wasn't it he who promised to blow up nuclear power plants in Russia,
if Russian troops enter his capital? Nothing in particular, just
in general, eh? Such a sincere guy, saint simplicity.
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: Russia sending two warships to Gulf
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1992 17:28:31 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.11 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

> MOSCOW (UPI) -- Russia announced Tuesday it is sending two warships to
> the Gulf to join an international force monitoring compliance with U.N.
> resolutions on Iraq.
> ... Read the rest on Clarinet

Is this the first time since WWII that Russia and United States are
allying on the same military mission ?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 08:42:54 GMT

oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
>In  <1992Aug27.110007.18722@jyu.fi>  ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>> ...
>> [worthless crap about Russians/Ukranians deleted]
>> Jarmo Ryyti
>
>Was you government using the same philosophy of "Russo, go home" when it
>was extraditing escapees from the USSR back, and giving them right into
>the hands of KGB ?

I don't know if this question is meant to be taken seriously, but still 
I'll answer it.

Finnish and Soviet authorities had some kind of a deal, in which Finland
promised to return defectors to the Soviet Union. I don't know if this
"deal" was ever written, but Finnish government did not want to make
Soviets angry.

Because of Soviet pressure Finnish government was not too eager to regard
Soviet defectors as political refugees, though Finnish people certainly knew
they were.

Janne Kivela"
From: Richard.Mathews@West.Sun.COM (Richard M. Mathews)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: CLINTON ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
Date: 3 Sep 1992 14:50:46 -0700
Organization: Sunsoft Inc., Los Angeles, CA.
NNTP-Posting-Host: smaug.West.Sun.COM

hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:

>Nope. Until around 1970 the number of people from Turkey was 
>restricted to 100 persons per year. Others probably came in on
>special labor/work visas.

The INS lists 10,100 "immigrants" from Turkey for 1961-1970, well over
100/yr.  During that period and in 1971-1980 the percent of immigrants
who were from Turkey held steady at about 0.3%.  Until someone can
directly attack the claim that there are about a million ethnic Turks
in the U.S. using more applicable statistics, I still think this is the
best guess.  And even if there aren't so many, I still say it is unfair
to make any claim to know what stand Clinton would take in a hypothetical
situation in which there were more Turks.

     Richard M. Mathews			Lietuva laisva = Free Lithuania
					Brivu Latviju  = Free Latvia
Richard.Mathews@West.Sun.COM		Eesti vabaks   = Free Estonia
					        WE  DID  IT!!!
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: THE LAST DAY OF MUTLU. TRAGEDY IN ONE PART.
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 06:45:43 GMT


	The Mutlu house. Daddy Mutlu is in bed. His son Argic
is bent over his cooling body, faithfully looking in the
fathers eyes.

	Mutlu: So long, my son, my forces are abondoning me ...

	Argic(crying): No, father, no, don't go, don't leave me alone!

	Mutlu: Oh, my son, my time has come. Now, in the face of 
	death, I can say: I have lived a beautiful life!
	I will be remembered in the newsgroups. I gave them hell,
	all of them, the Khachikians and others - they will all
	remember. But now, I have to go to a long trip ...
	(Starts to caugh).

	Argic(loud): No, no, father, do not die ...(Looking at
	the watch) At least not before you tell mo more about ...
	the will ...

	Mutlu: Ah, that ...(Pointing to his pillow) Everything is here,
	son, everything I lived for, and now I am leaving everything
	to you. You will be the only legitimate possessor of all the
	treasures of the Mutlu family ...

	Argic: What, even the Casa Granda, and the villas,
	and the Shevron stocks?

	Mutlu: Oh, my son, much more than that ... Much more ...
	Here, in these documents you will find ...(starts to caugh)...

	Argic: Father, please, do not stop . Ah, shoot (runs to
	the kitchen and returns with a glass of water) Here ...
	Father ... Daddy!Daddy! Answer me!

	Mutlu: I think I am dying ... (He is dying).

	Argic: Ah, shaitan, (oriental expression).

Argic puts the glass down, turns the body over and starts to look under
the pillow. His hand finds a folder of documents. He takes out a bunch
of old, dusty paper and carefully starts to read:


		THE MUTLU FOLDER

He turns the first page.


	Did Armenians kill 120% of the population of Van?

	Did Armenians kill 145% of the population of Erzerum?

	Did Armenians kill 160% of the Orange County?

Argic: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
       A! A!NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

He stands up, with his hands around his fronthead, with his eyes
madly moving back and forth. He makes one step, than another one ...
He moves to the computer ... He types ... Pnews ...........

			(Curtain)
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Lev Gumilev
Date: 29 Aug 1992 06:37:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug28.155929.29621@watson.ibm.com> bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:
>
>Oh, yes, "can be boiled" - if throw away little child with water :-)

No, no if you would boil down water with child, you would get a tasty soup :).

Yury
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 28 Aug 1992 19:11:30 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug28.062032.22193@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>Finland declared herself, the White Army and its commander general
>Mannerheim (who was educated in StPb) and provisional parlament,
>independent. The German unit was helping Finnish White Army led
>by Mannerheim to conquer Helsinki from the Reds. After that the
>German Army unit went home. Germany did not set governement for

Such a peacefull German army. 

>We can take other examples too. Algeria v. France 1960's, Tibet v. China today.

What about my example of Austian empire? It seems to be closer to 
situation? What about Swedish occupants in Finland? I think you should admit
that Finland was occupied by Sweden.

>You are again spreading disinformation!!! The german swiss, french swiss
>and italian swiss have been living for centuries in Swizerland.
>: 
>Dear Yuri, you mixing very badly Switzerland and Estonian case.
>Is it a common belief among the russians that the germans, french
>and italians have come to Switzerland as occupants? Knowing a bit

Sure, they did, the question is when? My lower limit is 400 a.c. :)

Regarding this time, one more example: Roman empire, modern French and
Spanish and Romanian territories have the language of their occupants :).

Yury
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: georglin@leland.Stanford.EDU (george lin)
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Re: "democratic" Estonia)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 22:33:01 GMT

Looking through the Baltic discussion...
1) The anti-Balt posters exaggerate the potential for terror against Russian
settlers.  The new Baltic governments are not about to give Moscow any ex-
cuse for  "rescuing its people."

2) They omit mention of the ex-Soviet army still planted in these sovereign
countries--a rather truculent and hostile presence.

3) Sadly, every country has injustices large and small.  I doubt that one can
create a perfect society with 100% contentment.  To expect saintly perfection
from the ethnic Balts--who did not receive such treatment from the Soviets and
who have well-grounded fears for their languages / cultures--is disingenuous.
Given the awful history they have experienced since 1940, their post-liberation
behavior could have been much worse.

4) The Russian settlers are not in the position of pre-World War II European
Jews, who had no homeland to which they could flee.  Russia may be ragged and
poor, but it's there.  As a Western diplomat commented in the Nov. 7, 1991,
Christian Science Monitor:  as long as they possess citizenship in another
country, this is NOT a human-rights question.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:31:13 GMT

Oleg Vishnepolsky (oleg@watson.ibm.com) writes:
>Another thought on the subject - while the current citizenship policies
>of the Baltic states are clearly discriminative, we have yet to see a
>single native of Estonian (or Latvian or Lithuanian) ethnicity to
>admit so. Peoples of truly democratic countries tend to have different
>opinions on most of the sensitive subjects. We know what it means for everyone
>to have the same opionion, we have seen it in Nazi Germany and in the
>Communist regimes. Come on, come ou straight and say you disagree
>and ashamed of your government policies - prove that your countries
>are democratic.

Very few of the Balts who appear in this conference are living
in the Baltics, or have done so in recent years. Most of them
seem to be first- or second-generation refugees. I don't think
what people in the diaspora says proves or disproves whether the
country is democratic. I would question that they should at all
be considered regarded as representative of the people in the Baltic
states.

However, let me supply some facts for you. As you may recall
there was a second question in the recent referendum on the
constitution, namely whether those 5.000 Russians who have
applied for citizenship would be entitled to vote in the up-
coming elections. The proposal fell - but only with 53% against.
That is, a substantial percentage of the Estonians were pre-
pared to give at least these 5.000 Russians right to vote.

One of the president candidates is a guy called Taagepera,
today or at least until very recently living in California,
running for Edgar Savisaar's party. In an interview I read
in a Swedish newspaper, he said that the citizenship law should 
be followed, but applied liberally to avoid a great number of 
non-citizens on Estonian territory. Particularly he claimed 
that people in Narva (and I think old people too) should get 
citizenship more or less right away.

There is some likelyhood that Taagepera might be elected, since
if no candidate gets a majority in the elections, the Riigikogu
will elect the president (as it will carry out all further
presidental elctions), and he may be the compromise. (Although
I am under the impression that Lennart Meri is more likely in 
that case.)

However, the president has a fairly representative role in
Estonia, and I am not optimistic that Edgar Savisaar's party
will be able to form the base of the next government, but
I doubt that they will be insignificant.

So, if you are looking for digressing opinions on these issues
in the Baltic states, they are there.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 28 Aug 1992 19:17:35 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug28.070804.22519@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>: 
>For me the way Vizniyk and Co. make argumentations sounds like KGB,

For me your argumentations sounds like "porjadochnaja suka", I
think you can not forbid me that even if you liked. I also think
that I still using much milder offences, then you are.

>I think you cannot forbid me that even if you liked. In former

Yury
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Coup Book and Video List
Date: 26 Aug 1992 00:35:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <25754@dog.ee.lbl.gov> Danny_Prousline@lbl.gov (D. Prousline) writes:
>
>Unfortunately, Julie, one has to be a native to feel  and know why is Posner 
>a filthy, communist-ass-licking-scum (capitalist ass-licking too, obviously).
>He in not the worst of them, true.

Just because natives suspects everyone. 

>He is one just because he worked for the bolsheviks all these years, and BTW for 
>KGB too, (just because it is not possible that he didnt.)

There is good reason to suspect that Posner is a lier, though, one
could claim that he was deceived by Communist propaganda (and at
least up to some age it will be true for most of people) if you were
brought up in USSR. Posner was not. He growed up here in USA, as far
as I know. There is a catch, though. In USSR by end of high school or
so, you were trained not to beleive a word of local propaganda, since
you know the facts (more or less) and see the contradiction. On the other
hand you were tended to overestimate capitalism, just because you do
not know enough and communist propaganda says it is bad. I can imagine
same thing happening here (with opposite sign).

Yury
From: georglin@leland.Stanford.EDU (george lin)
Subject: pavlik morozov
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 21:23:11 GMT


I am soon travelling to Moscow for a few days.  Can anybody tell me if
the statue of Pavlik Morozov is still standing?  I heard that it has re-
grettably been torn down.

Young Morozov, for those who haven't heard the name, was glorified as a
boy martyr for denouncing his grain-hoarding parents.  He was promptly
killed by a band of villagers.

	
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 07:30:33 GMT

> >b>ut really it's a problem without a stable solution. The best thing is to lea
rn
>> >
>> >to forgive each other for the past and make a new future.
>>
>>         Wasn't there a bloke some 2000 years ago who started a religion along
>> these lines.   Perhaps it should be revived.
>
>>         Howard Clase

>Very unfortunately, Dead Sea Scrolls (Svitki Myertvogo Morya) have made a dent
>into that religion beyond repair. The idea of forgiveness is great, though.

>Oleg

I hope that one day humanism will be separated from religion, so that we
can make some real progress in solving the kind of problems that take
up so much bandwidth in the real.world.




On some level, every nation or race or religion has hurt or offended
every other one, to the point where who did it first has become irrelevant.
The only relevant thing is that people suffer and die for this endless
returning of insults. 

I forgive the British for oppressing the Irish. I think the Protestants
should stay in North Ireland. It hurts to say that, but it hurts to
think of children being raised in hatred and violence.


I hope that somewhere in the middle of the ethnic conflicts in the xSU,
some people are also applying the ideals of humanism and thinking about
their childrens' futures, not their parents' pasts.
-patricia@cco.caltech.edu