HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: michaelb@cse.fau.edu (Michael Rogero Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:02:24 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton, FL, USA

In article <1992Oct4.193917.8306@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>Having been practically coerced into becoming an assistant den leader 
>for my son's bear den, I figured I'd better read through his bear book
>to see what I was getting myself into.  In chapter 2 I read about the
>Emblems of Faith Achievement where the scout receives the Religious
>Emblem Square Knot.  I was greatly disturbed to read about the Buddhist,
>Hindu, Islamic and Jewish emblems that I, serving in a leadership
>position, might have to award as an achievement someday.  As a Christian,
>I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
>further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.  I was wondering
>how other Christian scout leaders have handled this moral dilemma.  I just
>hope it remains a hypothetical situation for me!
>
First off YOU as a scout leader do not award the religious award.  This is
awarded by the religious group (church/synagogue/whatever) of the scout.

Secondly, Christianity is not the only religian.  Scouts are to be Reverant,
and that includes being respectful of other scouts religious beliefs.  I have
never run across any scout leader, no matter how religious, (and that includes
people who were pastors) who had a problem with different religians.

Lastly, I have always had a problem with people of any religious belief that
felt that theirs was the one, true religion, and that all others were evil
competitors to them.  It has been people like this that have cause many of
the problems of the world.  I have no problem with any scout of any religious
background earning their religious award, and neither do the many religious
who have Scouting Committees.


-- 
<<                                                               >>
<< Michael R. Brown    CS Graduate Student-Florida Atlantic Univ >>
<< Internet: michaelb@sol.cse.fau.edu                            >>
<< BitNet: m_brown@fauvax                                        >>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mxc1059@usl.edu (Carroll Matthew)
Subject: I NEED HELP PLEASE!!
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:38:32 GMT

Hello fellow scouters

I have a problem that someone may be able to help with.

I am an assistant scoutmaster for a small boyscout troup.
The boys range from age 12 to 17, with most of them 13 and 14.  The problem is that the scoutmaster is an excellent leader who is hardworking and VERY devoted to scouting.  His problem is that he doesn't provide enough enjoyment to the
scouts.  We seldom go camping and when we do, they have to stay together and not go far.  I guess he's overprotective.  I'm 22 so I have no problems interacting with the boys.  From what they tell me, they are not enjoying scouting very 
much.  The older boys, who are all close to eagle, have more than once asked me to start a seperate troop of scouts.  I respect the scoutmaster and know that
he is doing a good job, but how do I tell him that his program needs work?
What should I do and how should I handle it?

Thanks in advance
 Matthew Carroll
Troop 459
Church Point, La.
From: montgojw@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (II Jerry Montgomery)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: I NEED HELP PLEASE!!
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:02:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: master.1bervaINN3pi
Reply-To: montgojw@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (II Jerry Montgomery)
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
NNTP-Posting-Host: o200c-1.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <1992Oct13.153832.12125@usl.edu> mxc1059@usl.edu (Carroll  
Matthew) writes:
> Hello fellow scouters
> 
> I have a problem that someone may be able to help with.
> 
> I am an assistant scoutmaster for a small boyscout troup.
> The boys range from age 12 to 17, with most of them 13 and 14.  The  
problem is that the scoutmaster is an excellent leader who is hardworking  
and VERY devoted to scouting.  His problem is that he doesn't provide  
enough enjoyment to the
> scouts.  We seldom go camping and when we do, they have to stay together  
and not go far.  I guess he's overprotective.  I'm 22 so I have no  
problems interacting with the boys.  From what they tell me, they are not  
enjoying scouting very 
> much.  The older boys, who are all close to eagle, have more than once  
asked me to start a seperate troop of scouts.  I respect the scoutmaster  
and know that
> he is doing a good job, but how do I tell him that his program needs  
work?
> What should I do and how should I handle it?
> 
> Thanks in advance
>  Matthew Carroll
> Troop 459
> Church Point, La.

Try talking to him about putting a few more activities into the program  
and having a more relaxed atmosphere at the camp-outs.  Don't go hog wild  
with new ideas, just suggest a few games and activities that allow the  
boys to have fun while promoting learning.  A few examples are knot  
relays, true or false steal the bacon, and the like.  Also try to get the  
SM to have a leadership campout that is purely for fun.  Don't stress  
learning a particular scouting skill or anything, just have fun.  Go  
fishing, play a little football, or whatever.  Just make it a recreational  
campout.  This should put your older boys at ease, and once they are  
happy, it will spread to the younger scouts.  When they see the fun that  
the older scouts are having, they will want to work hard and become  
leadership so that they can have the same fun.
--
**************************************************************************
Jerry W. Montgomery II
Chemical Engineering Major; Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Eagle Scout & Vigil Honor member Wulakamike Lodge 21 WWW
ASM Troop 286  Indianapolis, Indiana
**************************************************************************
From: mfd@aber.ac.uk (Margaret Frances Disbury)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: 7 Oct 92 08:49:25 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

In article <1992Oct5.214737.1354@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:

>
>I have a responsibility to share Jesus Christ with the world, but not to force
>it upon anyone.  The problem I have is being viewed in any way as PROMOTING a 
>false belief.
>
>Todd Stevens
>stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com

It's back to semantics school, people.  "Belief" in this context is dealing
with one person's objectively-unverifiable faith.  Therefore it is not possible
to describe any belief contrary to your own as false.

BTW, I don't hold that faith
is bad, on the contrary, it is very good.  My one MAJOR beef is that the vast
majority of people are completely unable to separate faith from religion and
this is what causes the problems.  What is wrong with the idea that there is
but one deity and that as people vary in their physical and mental 
characteristics, they will also vary in the way they approach that deity ?

My Guiding (UK-speak for female Scouting) has all been in Europe and I've had
absolutely no direct experience of this thread.  (You think Europe is all one
denomination ? try again :-) :-)              "Guides' Own", which is the
spiritual element of a meeting/camp/weekend activity, has always concentrated
on those things all the Guides present had in common.  Differences were not
important.  The Quest badge (spiritual development) calls for the Guide's 
parents, Guider and spiritual leader all to work together to encourage her
spiritual growth.  My sister, (a Christian, but as I've pointed out before,
that is incidental) dealt with several candidates for this badge, including
a Buddhist and a Unitarian.  These credos are both so rare in rural Wales as to
cause much more concern as to where my sister could find a spiritual "leader"
from either, who was within a reasonable travelling distance and not 
directly related to the child.

Tolerance and acceptance, paraphrase how you will to understand that in the
context of your own spirituality, is Scouting.  The converse is not.

Fran
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jsgoldma@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeremy Goldman)
Subject: Site...
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix (sponsored by U. of Denver Math/CS dept.)
Disclaimer1: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of
Disclaimer2: Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
Disclaimer3: control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 23:15:28 GMT

So, IS there a site for Scouting on UNIX??  Please E-mail me:
jsgoldma@nyx.cs.du.edu
From: wayne@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Wayne Fuller)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Cub Scout Leaders
Date: 12 Oct 92 04:51:14 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar) writes:

> In article 63770002@hpcc01.corp.hp.com, petruno@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Pat Petru
> |>I'm looking for help.  Does anyone else have problems recruiting leaders
> |>for dens.  We have plenty of kids.
> |>
> 
> 
> This is a perrenial problem, according to everyone I talk
> to around here.  Things are a bit better at the boys scout level
> since boys (and hence their parents) are in the program longer.
> But in many cub packs, the leaders turn over completely every year 
> or two. This means that there is little continuity and that you are 
> always looking for new leaders.
> 
> When it comes to  finding den leaders, my personal experience is
> that it always comes down to saying "if we don't get a volunteer,
> there won't be a Wolf/Bear/Webelos Den." 

When I was a Cub Master we would have, at the first meeting of the year, a
meeting with all the parents.  I would tell the parents that I was willing
to stand there all night while they made up their minds, but that we were
not leaveing untill we had leaders for all the boys, or the parents told the
boys they could not be in scouts because of no parent would be a leader.
 
> For some reason, many people look at cub scouts as a babysitting 
> service that they get for free. That is one reason why the
> Y's Indian Guides/Princesses program is (IMHO) a more effective
> program for the younger kids - it is based on a covenant that
> the parents will take part and many of the activities are
> parent/child.

Doesn't B.S.A. stand for Baby Sitters Associated?

*honest that was ment as a joke*

> 
> 
> 		Bob Haar
> 		Chartered Organization Representative,  Troop and Pack 188
> 		    BSA, Clinton Valley Council, Pontiac, Michigan, USA. 
> 		Ordeal member, Chippewa Lodge #29, WWW
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 	Robert Haar               InterNet : rhaar@gmr.com 
> 	Computer Science Dept., G.M. Research and Environmental Staff
> DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is
> personal opinion, not an official statement of General Motors Corp.
From: dpfabie@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David Paul Fabie)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Knots: too much bother
Date: 14 Oct 1992 23:24:12 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

I agree that too much attention is focused on knots, and I like many folks
know scouters that look like General Patton they have so much cloth above
their left pocket.  Yet I am hesitant to condemn them for it.  Yes it seems
showy and obnoxious yet, there is also a element of pride in one's scouting
involvement.  I have three knots on my shirt.  My Arrow of Light, Eagle,
and the DSA.  I could also sew on my religous award and Scouters Training
Award, but I don't. The reason is not a dislike of knots but simply because
I really hate to sew!
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Paul Fabie                   * "Remember! Editors never reject.  We
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee  *  merely select." - David Kirby
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: evelyn@cg57.UUCP (Evelyn Froeschke)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Scouts Final Chapter!
Date: 11 Oct 92 04:21:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: cg57.627
Organization: E & S Systems Unix Gateway, San Diego, CA


>BTW, I have now been "promoted" to den leader as everyone else has backed
>out!  HELP!!!  We haven't had one den meeting yet.  I am going to Basic
>Leader Training this weekend but will probably want to have at least an
>hour and a half long den meeting before then.  I don't have any activities 
>information yet and would appreciate any ideas for a first bear den meeting 
>activity.  I know some of the boys need to work on their bobcat badge and 
>our den has been selected to perform a song at the next pack meeting.  I am 
>supposed to get the list of boys in my den very soon (I think there are 7 or
>8 boys) and I plan to ask that person a lot of these questions then.  But 
>again, HHEELLPP!!!

Hi Todd. As a former den leader who was also thrown in at the deep end, the
best advice I can give you is draft another parent if at all possible so
you won't feel totally lost. Boys of this age have very short attention
spans so its definately worth your while to try and plan activities with
almost instant results, as they'll tell you in training, Keep It Simple,
Make It Fun. If I read the Boy's Life correctly, Achievement 11-Be Ready
ties in with the theme of the month. Have the boys practice Stop, Drop,and
Roll or pair them up and let them practice smothering the fire on their
partner. A good song would be "If You're Happy and You Know It". Everyone
knows it and they can get pretty loud without tearing the house down! One
more thing, take all the information and training you're offered, it's
worth it!!

Evelyn
 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mpb@troy.uucp (22161-bunz)
Subject: Re: New Den leader (was Jesus vs. Scouts Final Chapter!)
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 12:52:07 GMT

In article <13697@pogo.wv.tek.com>, rickc@pogo.wv.tek.com (Rick Clements) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Oct6.131650.6380@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
> >BTW, I have now been "promoted" to den leader as everyone else has backed
> >out!  HELP!!!  We haven't had one den meeting yet.  I am going to Basic
> >Leader Training this weekend but will probably want to have at least an
> >hour and a half long den meeting before then.
> 
> Basic training is important.  Round Tables are a good source of information
> too.  We had a den leader's split.  The leader of the split gave us lots of
> good ideas that worked for her.  Does your pack have a den leader coach?
> If not, talk to one of the other den leaders.
> 
> Do you have an asst.?  BSA requires two leaders at all times.
> 
> >  I don't have any activities 
> >information yet and would appreciate any ideas for a first bear den meeting 
> >activity.  
> 
> Starting a new den there will be a lot of administation that needs to be done.
> 	Choose a den name
Den's are numbered.  I believe it is possible to give a Webelos Den
a Patrol name, but I haven't seen it done.
> 	Make a den flag
> 	Have the den decide on a set of rules (let the boys help & the post
> 		them)
> 
> It's a good idea to have a game and/or craft at each meeting?
> 
> I think Oct's theme is fire saftey.  (The Webelos don't use those themes, so
> I'm not sure.)  You can schedule a trip to the local fire station.  (You will
> need a trip permit unless the parents drop the scouts off at the station.)
Generally, permits are only needed if you are leaving your Council teritory
(In NJ we also need them if we visit a State Park or a military instalation.)
> -- 
> Rick Clements (RickC@pogo.WV.TEK.COM)
Marc
From: medic@hardy.u.washington.edu (Travis Lauricella)
Subject: Respect
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 03:01:14 GMT

I've got a question/problem, and I'm tossing it out to this group in hopes
of coming up with a solution.

I am the 21-year-old Scoutmaster of a troop of about 15 scouts in Tacoma, WA.
I have been in the troop for the last 10 years.  Lately, it seems that the
scouts have been showing less and less respect to both adult leaders and
their fellow scouts.

For example, two weeks ago a scout was acting up during the opening flag
ceremony at our troop meeting.  He intentionally let the American flag drag
on the floor at one point, and at another point, "accidentally" poked the 
tip of the pole into the low ceiling.  He was reprimanded by an Assistant
Scoutmaster, privately, but seemed to brush off the comments.

Numerous times, scouts are talking or wandering around the meeting room when
another scout is (supposedly) giving a demonstration to the troop.  When
asked to give the leader respect and to sit and listen (told either by the 
SPL or myself) they will, briefly, but return to their goofing off within
minutes.

They seem to treat ceremonies (flag, vespers) with little respect, and treat
speakers with even less.

I have been to BSLBT and have sent most of my junior leaders to Bushmaster
(a week-long junior leader training course).  The PLC plans every meeting
and was instrumental in planning our camping schedule for the upcoming
year.  Adult participation is strong, but mainly in the background.  The
boys recently elected a new SPL, who has a less forceful personality than 
the previous one (a large age difference is a big part of this), but the 
disrespectfulness was present during the old SPL's term as well.

I have talked to the boys as a group about this topic a few times in recent
months, and last spring took up an entire meeting on the subject.  It works
as a temporary fix, but within a few weeks the lack of respect is back.

How do I get a room full of teenage boys to sit still and listen for 20
minutes, and, more importantly, how do I teach them the importance of
respect for their leaders.  (Uniforming has not really been a problem, as the
boys, except for one, tend to wear their uniforms to every meeting.)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  (And if you can figure out how to
get this one last scout to wear his uniform, that would be helpful, too.  Peer
pressure hasn't seemed to work.)

J. Travis Lauricella (medic@u.washington.edu)
Eagle Scout, '89
Scoutmaster, Troop 53
Lakewood Center, WA
From: rdc30@nmrdc1.nmrdc.nnmc.navy.mil (Code-03 LCDR Michael E. Dobson)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Cub Scout Leaders
Date: 7 Oct 92 18:15:14 GMT
Organization: Naval Medical Research & Development Command

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed, especially the more tolerant
ones for parents that have valid reasons for being unable to volunteer on a
regular basis.  I've had several single parent Cubs in my four years as a
Cub Leader and these parents have told me that scouting was one of the best
things that happened to their son.  I have one boy now who's mom is a
single parent and a 4th year med student.  His grandmother has signed up to
help with our various parties but on our first weekend outdoor actitvity,
his mom was there to help out.  She's looking forward to the camping trips
too.

I've also used the ploy of "no leaders, no den".  This year my Wolf den
went until the first Pack meeting without a leader.  Part way through the
meeting two moms stepped forward to volunteer.  I immediately recognized
them in front of the whole pack and had the boys give them a good Cub Scout
cheer.  The next day I went out and bought them their Cub Scout Leader's
Handbooks, Program Helps, and one of those new den planning guides.  I also
gave them the district training and roundtable schedules.  They held their 
first den meeting 5 days after the pack meeting and according to my son, it
was a smashing success.  The new leaders are now very excited about being
leaders.  It seems if you can show the adults how much fun being a leader
is, they volunteer and stay as leaders.

Mike Dobson
CM Pack 1071
MC Troop 1071
Olde Mill District, National Capital Area Council, BSA
From: gds@crosfield.co.uk (gary stamp)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: UK calling
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:30:35 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.

Anyone from New Zealand listening ?

Our pack Arkala comes from New Zealand and would like to hear from any other
packs over there, with a view of establishing a few UK-NZ cub pen friends.



-- 
o0o______________o0o_____________________o0o________________________________o0o
 |Gary Stamp      | Crosfield Electronics |The light at the end of the tunnel|
 |NOT Fourth Floor| (0442) 230000 x3552   |        May be an Express	     |
o0o______________o0o_____________________o0o________________________________o0o
From: michaell@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Michael A. Lowry)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: BSA and its attitude toward religion, or the lack thereof.
Keywords: Scouting BSA boy scouts religion atheism
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:01:09 GMT
Followup-To: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

I'm an eagle scout, an explorer, an active scouter (ASM), and an
atheist. Who cares? If it's the BSA's policy to allow all flavors of
religious beliefs, even thouse which violebtly oppose each other, then
what could possibly be wong with the lack of such beliefs?

> The points I raised do NOT apply to atheists, and I'd wish you'd stop
> cluttering up rec.scouting with your anti-religion agenda!!!
 
> A religious belief is a POSITIVE moral value, and a value that children
> should be encouraged to adopt.   The issue in these postings is that
> a BSA unit adult leader was unable to respect legitimate RELIGIOUS
> beliefs different from his own.  It had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with
> atheism.

	
I agree that cross-posting of irrelevant issues to rec.scouting should
not be done. But this is a relevant issue.

If anything, religious belief is a devisive force among people. Faith
in some supernatural power is absolutely NOT necessary for morality.

And WHO on Earth is so wise that he can decide what is and what is not
a "legitimate religious belief"? Is Islam legitimate? What about
Judaism? Christianity? Buddhism? Shintoism? Taoism? Or What about some
individual's own personal interpretation of one of those philosophies?
How about an American Indian, or Egyptian belief?

Scouting is an important way for young men to develop confidence,
leadership abilities, people skills, and gain invaluable information
and experience in ares such as First Aid, Camping, Pioneering, or
Environmental Science. If Scouting is to accept widely diverse
religious beliefs, it it obvious that Scouting must also accept
atheists, agnostics, pagans- whatever!

I have to run to my philospphy class now, but I would be happy to
receive your responses!

Take care, everyone.

	   //
--Michael Andrew Lowry
michaell@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting