HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 00:24:51 EDT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun) writes:

> In order to make that kind of strong 'never again' statement, though,
> the international community simply *could not* consider the Persian Gulf
> War a one-shot deal.  It had to be ready and waiting to use this coalition
> of military force again, enough times to establish credibility.

Great topic, Rich!  Glad you broached it!  Ready?

Nobody should be misled that the Gulf War had anything more than a thin veneer
of "humanitarian reasons" to get involved.  The whole thing was about oil and
its availability at low cost.  Period.  End of story.

We, of course, can go off on a tangent on whether cheap oil is worth dying
for.  For my part, I say let oil be charged at its intrinsic value of fueling
an entire economy - not at the actual price it takes to bring it to market.

The price for the former is fantastic and is why we went to war.  I say there
is no better reason than economics or national security to go to war.  Ideals
run a poor third.

So, this now brings us to the "thang" in Yugoslavia.  Don't touch it with a
ten-foot pole!  We do not have a dog in that fight.  Whether the entire
country is wiped off the face of the planet does not affect the U.S. not one
jot nor tiddle.  We have no economic investment there and whether one faction
or another rules that land has no affect on us.  It won't affect our national
security and, even if a communist faction takes over, it has been shown that
communism is a failed policy destined to the trash heap of history.

For the U.S., the Yugoslavian situation is a non-starter.  Stay out!

                                      - - - Murph

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From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Date: 19 Aug 92 09:23:00 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: Mitech Corporation, Concord MA

In article <1992Aug18.224900.23843@odi.com>, dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:
> ... the sotto voce unofficial discrimination
> against Koreans in Japan. 

"Sotto voce"? Tell that to the thousands of korean women taken
as sex-slaves by the japanese government.

Is it "sotto voce" when there are laws that force a person
to change their name before they can even apply for Japanese
citizenship?
From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Give 'em a Right then a Left
Date: 13 Aug 92 10:49:52 GMT
Organization: Mitech Corporation, Concord MA

In article <5525@transfer.stratus.com>, tarl@sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
> In article <2367@mitech.com>, gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:
> ... about getting engineering degrees, etc.

> If your derogatory remarks refer only to those so wealthy they don't
> bother working, you're probably right. They don't have to work, they
> haven't instilled a work ethic in their children, so they don't work
> either.

Ah, if it were only limited to those "so wealthy..."

I want to express a worry these "upper-class ethics,"
including attitudes toward work, study and morality, 
are being promoted and advanced in middle class and working class society.

How? Media, advertising ...?

> But they are so few in number, they are an insignificant portion of
> university students in this country. There just aren't many people
> who are that wealthy.

Well, the proportion of scholarship atheletes is "an insignificant portion"
of the university students, but is it not true that
the mere fact that people can be paid to go to college, and acheive
little academically, can ignore the rules, be treated like a hero
for it ... [editors note: more diatribe against well known problems
is college sports removed ...] have a *SIGNIFICANT* influence on
the environment?

-gjc

p.s.

Why is it that the proportion of engineering and science degrees
going to u.s. citizens has declined so much in the last 20 years?
Could it be that in the USA the relative value of this education
has declined?

Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 06:57:02 GMT

murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:


....
>I'll thank you not to lump me in with the bible-thumpers.  I make a clean
>distinction between my personal religious beliefs and my government.  I am not
>a slave to anyone's ideology.  My "compassion" ends where my pocketbook
>begins.  I'm happy to deal in generics like _basic_ education but when people
>want me to start to fund others' ideas of a Better Way, I want to be heard,
>too.  If we can't agree, we'll both take our money and do it ourselves.
....


>                        Christianity or compassion begins at home...
>                                      - - - Murph

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, Massachusetts - Data: (508) 682-5329
>   SysAdmin:  murph@buscard.fidonet.org / ...!ulowell!wizvax!buscard!murph


I'm sorry if I am confused, but weren't you using the Bible in earlier
discussions about sexual practices and abortion? Have I confused you
with someone else?


Charlie
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: In politics, why as why?
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:10:41 GMT
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:

> But Bush used his bully pulpit to talk about (Gulf War) very strongly.
> Remember him talking about how immoral the invasion was, how innocent
> people were being killed, how Saddam was like Hitler, and so on?
> Doesn't seem to bother him much in Yugoslavia.

And it shouldn't!  We don't have a dog in the Yugoslavia fight.  It is 
absurd to think that the U.S. should be running around the world 
involving itself in every conflagration that happens on the world stage. 
In the Gulf War, we were fighting for lower oil prices and whether you 
like it or not, there is no better thing to fight for than money or 
security.

                                - - - Murph

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SysAdmin:  murph@buscard.fidonet.org / ...!ulowell!wizvax!buscard!murph
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Organization: The World
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:37:05 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>It appears that the U.S., once again, is the only nation doing anything
>substantive about it.  Is this right?  Do the European countries have any
>responsibility to do anything about the situation, if anything can be done?

About Yugoslavia? Where do you get the idea that the US is the major
player in trying to influence affairs there? The French have more
troops in the area last I heard. It was a Ukranian soldier who was
recently killed during a peace-keeping role. etc etc.

You need to crack a newspaper once in a while and stop trying to make
up facts to fit your view of the world, which it's transparently
obvious is what you do.

I think most of the Americans in Yugoslavia right now are from the
news media trying to get some angle which will net them a Pulitzer.


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 23:19:15 GMT

In article <se4uPB3w165w@buscard.fidonet.org> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
>bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>> There is nothing wrong with praying in school.
>> Forcing others to pray is a different matter entirely, mein fuhrer.

>So, you don't mind forcing a condom in my kid's hand but if I force your kid
>to pray, you'll call me Hitler?

The constitution forbids one, not the other.  Read the first
ammendment.

>Don't you think a better way is to issue vouchers to the parents to spend on
>the kind of education that is important to them?

Unfortunately, this voucher system is often used as a way to obtain
unconstitutional funding for religous schools.  

If you want tax money to go to the school of your choice, thats fine.
In theory.  Britian is having an awful lot of problems with the
system.  Bad schools are lingering on, and refusing to die the way
they should.  Also, it turns out to be pretty tough to start a new
school under the voucher system.

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: In politics, why as why?
Organization: The World
	<BZS.92Aug5205623@ussr.std.com> <1992Aug06.164831.19510@kronos.com>
	<2319@mitech.com> <1992Aug10.220422.1816@odi.com> <2366@mitech.com>
	<1992Aug12.191347.5729@odi.com> <2378@mitech.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:42:48 GMT


From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette)
>p.s. Can you name a rather significant war that the Republican Party
>got us into? A war that makes Vietnam and Korea look like a cake walk?

Yes, Vietnam. You should study the history of the war more carefully
rather than basing your view on popular perceptions. We had "advisors"
there as early as 1956.

The Eisenhower administration's refusal to participate in or sign the
Geneva Accords of (I believe 1956) partitioning Vietnam and ceasing
hostilities after the French pulled out was a critical step in what
happened a few years later.

Or do you really think that in 1962 when the US essentially shoved
Diem in power a few months after JFK took office is when it all
started? How many "advisors" were in Vietnam on the day JFK took
office? I think a few thousand.

I'm not saying that LBJ handled it well, he handled it all awfully,
and of course it destroyed him ultimately.

And it is hard to put one's finger on exactly who is really at fault,
it's only possible by deciding to ignore some very significant facts
in any case.

But it's also a bit over-simplified to put the blame on who fired the
first shot, sort of the "he hit me first" approach to history.

--
        -Barry Shein

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: Terri Buchman <buchman@osf.org>
Subject: Re: I'm in a gay mood!
X-Xxdate: Thu, 20 Aug 92 13:08:06 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:34:09 GMT


I have listened to a lot of anti-gay, allegedly pro-family
rhetoric this week from
Houston and I don't understand the visciousness of it.  I'm
hetero, married, 2
kids,taxxpayer, etc and I just don't get what is so scary to
some folks about gay relationships.   Pat Buchanan made an ass
out of himself  while he accused everyone who disagreed with
him of being a cross dresser (!!) or gay.  (I have a theory
about Pat's appearance.  He was secretly paid off by the
psychiatric lobby to give that speech.  No whenever someone
wants a textbook example of paranoia, they can just pop his
speech into the ole VCR and get a perfect example.)

Why are so many folks so intimidated?  Most of the rights I
have heard gay and lesbian groups argue for are the rights that
others in society enjoy.  (Non discrimination in housing, jobs,
health care, etc)  What is so damned scary about that?  Should
a landlord have the right to evict because they don't like who
you are (or might be) sleeping with?  Should your boss be able
to fire you because you were seen with his/her idea of the
wrong type of person?

Maybe it's just me but I don't understand what all the uproar
is all about.  Respecting the rights of others doesn't harm me
or my family.  My kids aren't languishing in moral hell because
Weld is considering letting some people in his administration
obtain health insurance for their "spousal equivalents". 

Terri B.
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: I'm in a gay mood!
Organization: insert anything here
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:01:07 GMT

murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
>> So tell us Murph, what are your sexual preferences?

>I like llamas.  My favorite newsgroups are alt.sex.gerbils.duct-tape and
>alt.sex.aluminum.baseball.bat.  I demand the same rights as the homos.

>Should I have them?

	Oh, ABSOLUTELY!

	Are you intending to divorce yourself from some of the rights
you have now, or are you intending to bring everyone up to the
same level?

	Equal means equal.

BBC
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Homos in school, too?  What next?
Organization: The World
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:30:56 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>> So tell us again which friction and exactly when and where and how is
>> ok to make a good teacher? And how deeply should we investigate this
>> issue?
>
>We're still talking about public schools in this debate, right?

Wrong. We're talking about Murphy's rules on who is fit to live in
this world.

Or do you say it's ok for gays to teach in Catholic schools, but not
in public schools? Not in theory Murphy, tell us what you think?

If you don't, then your point is kinda moot, ain't it?

>The nuns are celibate because they have taken a vow to remain so to devote
>their every thought to God.  Further, they are unmarried.

I am fully aware of why Nuns are celibate. Actually, they are married
to God, right? Minor nit.

So what? Maybe you believe in all that. Maybe your next door neighbor
finds what passes for such religious belief as indicative of severe
mental disturbance? So who's right?

I'd recommend mutual tolerance myself.

>If Catholics have to fund your view of education where condoms are passed out
>to minors, should they expect you to ante up to fund an education that teaches
>celibacy by minors?

When we start taxing the Catholic Church you'll have a point.

Do you really think it should all be run by the least common
denominator? No condoms because that might offend a catholic, no
activities on Friday because that might offend a muslim, none on
Saturday because that might offend a jew or seventh-day adventist, etc
etc etc?

>I assume you are for choice.  Does this extend to school choice?  What is your
>stand on a voucher system for education?

I'm against it. It's just a cryptic way of saying ``I got mine, the
hell with everyone else, pull up the ladder!''

We'll all be, literally, poorer for it.

I don't need a Bosnia/Herczegovinia here. We have enough xenophobia in
our culture as it is.


--
        -Barry Shein

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From: jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Jeffrey Turner)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Date: 23 Aug 92 12:43:27 GMT
	<BZS.92Aug18194424@ussr.std.com>
	<JTURNER.92Aug21203351@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>
	<BZS.92Aug21235020@ussr.std.com>
	<JTURNER.92Aug22123754@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>
	<BZS.
Organization: College of Engineering, Northeastern University
In-reply-to: bzs@ussr.std.com's message of 23 Aug 92 09:08:41 GMT

In article <BZS.92Aug23040841@ussr.std.com> bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

> From: jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Jeffrey Turner) [responding to me]
> >	The two are not mutually contradictory.  If the decision
> >to go to war had already been made then it makes perfect sense
> >to invite an invasion which "calls for US retaliation".

> Ya know, I like a good conspiracy theory as well as the next guy.
> But in a case like this the first thing you have to do is lay out the
> players on the table, those who had to be "in" on it.
> There sure are a lot of players on the table, the US, Japan, Saudis,
> Egyptians, French, British, Kuwaitis of course, Iranians to some
> extent, everyone from their respective govt's who had to have some
> level of detail on the big plan. And would be smart enough to know if
> their legs were being pulled.

	This is patent hogwash.  It was in the US's perceived best
interests, at least as understood by Bush and his cohort, to get
into a war.  So Bush arranged one and talked, strong-armed or
paid-off enough others to make it a United Nations effort.  I don't
see the need for anyone else to be "in" on it.

						--Jeff Turner

Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: composer@world.std.com (Jeff Kellem)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Reply-To: composer@Beyond.Dreams.ORG
Organization: Beyond Dreams
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 03:57:46 GMT

gordon@gandalf.think.com (gordon linoff) writes:
 > Abortion and contraceptions are usually preferable to unwed
 > motherhood.  Are you supporting these options?

Don't forget another option, adoption.

		-jeff

Jeff Kellem
Internet: composer@Beyond.Dreams.ORG
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: spike@coke.std.com (Joe Ilacqua)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Organization: Software Tool & Die
	<1992Aug17.210014.28270@spdcc.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:09:12 GMT

In the article referenced above rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:

<>Schools have plenty of time to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic,
<>even if you cut that time in HALF. 
<This is simply not true, as evidenced by the decline of students
<performance in these areas over the last 30 years.

	Dunno, from my own experience, I wonder if it is the lack of
things outside of the "3 Rs" that is part of the problem.  As I when
though public school, the budget shrunk, and after school programs
ended.  Not just sports, but things like chess clubs, science clubs,
debating clubs.  Things that make school interesting and teach you how
to thing instead of just memorize.

	Even sports help, there are always academic requirements to be
on teams.  A carrot on a stick for people who need one.

->Spike
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:57:39 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

> >You don't think a compromise on our positions can be reached by simply keepi
> >sex ed out of school and in the home?  If not, why is it a bad idea to pray 
> >school?
> 
> There is nothing wrong with praying in school.
> 
> Forcing others to pray is a different matter entirely, mein fuhrer.

So, you don't mind forcing a condom in my kid's hand but if I force your kid
to pray, you'll call me Hitler?

Don't you think a better way is to issue vouchers to the parents to spend on
the kind of education that is important to them?

                                      - - - Murph

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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   SysAdmin:  murph@buscard.fidonet.org / ...!ulowell!wizvax!buscard!murph
From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Date: 17 Aug 92 09:53:53 GMT
Organization: Mitech Corporation, Concord MA

In article <7wXJPB1w165w@buscard.fidonet.org>, murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
> gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:
> 
>> Music *is* literature!
>> 
>> Music is also language.
> 
> Music is also a Very Nice Thing.  So's home beer brewing.
> That doesn't mean that either should be taught in school at the expense 
> of reading, writing, and 'rithmetic.
> 

Home beer brewing is chemistry and biology. It should be taught along
with canning, ice cream making, butter making etc. 

How are kids going to be prepared to make sensible food purchase
decisions if they don't even know how food is manufactured?

Schools have plenty of time to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic,
even if you cut that time in HALF. 

The amount of repetition is over the years in the current
system amazing. No wonder kids get sick of it.
No wonder kids just don't see the point and drop out.

The simple fact of the matter is that more things need to be done
to make school interesting. Adding more things like music and beer brewing and
puppet making and performance drama would help make it more interesting.
Then you would get better results in reading, writing, and mathematics.

-gjc

Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Organization: The Boston Software Works, Inc.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 03:39:15 GMT


Johnny can't read because he spends all his time watching TV.
Take away the TV's and you'd see a marked improvement in
school performance.

It is no accident that the decline in SAT scores correlates
almost exactly with the enormous increase in TV watching (lagging
by the ten to fifteen years between the early stages of video
hypnosis, before school age, and the time students take the SATs.)

We have no television in our home.  I have never owned one.
My older son, who is now ten, is a voracious reader, and reads
well above his grade level.  Would he be reading as much, or as
well, if we had a TV?  I doubt it.

I firmly believe that the single thing we could do that would
improve academic performance more than any other single thing
is to abolish television.
-- 
Larry Campbell             The Boston Software Works, Inc., 120 Fulton Street
campbell@redsox.bsw.com    Boston, Massachusetts 02109 (USA)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Distribution: ne
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 22:49:00 GMT

In article <Bt5Eo4.FIx@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:

							    the organized
   discrimination in Japan is very similar to that in S. Africa , the major
   difference being that of majority against minority instead of the reverse.

First, that major difference is a very big difference.  Second, the
discrimination not all that similar.  The apartheid laws imposed far
greater handicaps than the sotto voce unofficial discrimination
against Koreans in Japan.  It's a question of degree, and degree
matters.  Maybe you are too insensitive to see the difference here,
but most of the rest of the world isn't.

			 The "fad" crowd

Oh, you and your strawman "crowd".  I don't know of anyone anywhere
who seriously thought that South American apartheid was no worse than
discrimination everywhere: not conservatives, not neoconservatives,
not radicals, nobody.  Your idea that loathing of apartheid was unique
to sandal-wearing hippy liberals is unfounded in fact.