HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Why Do We Have Separate Restrooms? (WAS Re: Gays, the military...)
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:11:25 GMT
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1993Jan4.190053.28731@netcom.com>
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:

>In article <106070@bu.edu> kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:

PR:
>>>Homosexuality is a sexual context -- ask any straight man
>>>that has walked into a homosexual bar without knowing it --
>>>and most men do NOT want to be part of that sexual context.

>>I don't think that "most" is accurate, unless you're talking
>>about teens and men in their early twenties, who (surprise,
>>surprise) are also the demographic groups who bash gay men
>>the most frequently.

>Oh? I'm not aware of ANY straight men that are "bar goers" that frequent
>homosexual bars.

You don't know several of my straight male friends, then. Consider yourself
sheltered.
From: falk@peregrine.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: I am a great skeptic on 2nd-hand stories (was: Re: Is this wrong, or what?
Date: 5 Jan 1993 22:17:57 GMT
Organization: Sun
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: peregrine

In article <1993Jan5.092018.12391@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>
>Why? A man molests a minor. He kills himself. The company does not
>apologize. It lauds the molestor.
>
>Why is the name of the company important? Why?

I dunno; you tell us.  Why *is* it so important to you?

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd guess you're telling a story that happened
a very long time ago.

		-ed falk, sun microsystems
		 sun!falk, falk@sun.com
To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags 
-- that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal (Mark Twain).
From: cj@eno.esd.sgi.com.esd.sgi.com (C.J. Silverio)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:12:52 GMT
Reply-To: cj@sgi.com
Organization: SGI TechPubs


In article <13819@optilink.COM>, walsh@optilink.COM writes:
|Darn it, you've got me thinking again.  There's only one Indian
|restaurant in all of Rohnert Park.  I'm sick and tired of this
|monopoly, and their high prices.  Political action anyone?

If state & federal regulations enforce an Indian restaurant
monopoly on you, then yeah.  Go for it.  Get your Congressman
to work at overturning that monopoly.

Did you have some kind of actual point to make?

---
C J Silverio	cj@sgi.com	ceej@well.sf.ca.us
"Such people.  Such articles.  If usenet was a cage with 
Phil Ronzone locked inside, I'd be sure not to put *my* hand 
through the bars!" -- Mark Corscadden, in ba.politics
From: flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Well, even Adolph had to start at thge bottom ...
Date: 5 Jan 1993 19:48:42 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: ba
Reply-To: flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham)
NNTP-Posting-Host: bendenweyr

phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
|> SJMN today:
|> 
|> Andy Pugno, 19-year old Political Science major at UC-Davis, self described
|> as conservative and a Republican, is facing a recall for his seat on
|> the executive council of the Associated Students of the University of
|> California.

Can you explain what this "recall" process consists of?  If it consists
of a popular vote on the issue of removing him from office, then that
is just the democratic process at work.

|> Andy is very popular -- he has been the LEADING vote getter in the past
|> two UC-davic student elections.

Andy "has been" very popular.  "Past" elections have shown that.  But,
given the views he expressed in recent council votes, he may no longer
be as popular as when he was elected.

|> Sig Heil Merline - fuck democracy, how dare a popularly elected person
|> vote against the way YOU want. Too bad we don't have no labor kamps, eh?

If an elected official voted in a way that endangered my life, liberty,
or pursuit of happiness, then I would do all I could to support those
democratic processes which would remove them from office, such as voting
against them in the next election (EEEK - How dare you vote against
someone just because they don't vote the way you want?) and also to
petition to have that election occur as soon as possible.

				...jim
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (x4604 (Hauskins))
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Date: 5 Jan 93 19:09:03 GMT
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <106184@bu.edu> kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
>In article <13784@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>
>>How about learning to read for pleasure, instead of being a slave to the
>>opiate of the masses?
>
>Isn't it ironic, though,  that the biggest competitor to television as a
>mind-enslaver is a certain Book?


Touche- it is true that just reading does not make you any better off then
watching TV unless, you have know what your reading and have an open mind to
read and attempt to understand the spectrum of the human condition and 
ideas.

Both media can be made to serve a particular bias and ideology.
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: Well, even Adolph had to start at thge bottom ...
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 03:40:28 GMT

In article <lkk1uhINN4q4@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> falk@peregrine.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) writes:
    >In short, if the people who voted for Andy Pugno are unhappy
    >with the way he votes in council, they are perfectly right to
    >vote him back out of office, via the recall process. That
    >process has to be initiated by *somebody*; who else but
    >someone who most thinks his actions hurts women and gays? If
    >the majority of the people are happy with the way he votes,
    >it is their right and their duty to vote down the recall
    >petition.
    >
    >As for how I would vote if I were there; I'd have to know
    >more of the story. Are people mad because he broke his
    >political promises, or are they mad because they lost fair
    >and square?

What you say, I totally agree with.

But, we are talking about a faculty member, who after failing to get him
removed, is now stirring up a recall election. This is like a Saudia Arabian
prince stirring up a recall against an elected official that votes
pro-Jewish.

However, a recall is a recall and would be legitimate in this case.



-- 
I believe Gennifer Flowers.

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em! (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (x4604 (Hauskins))
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Sounds like Democracy to me. (Was Re: Well, even Adolph had to start at thge bottom ...
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:59:25 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <1993Jan5.091102.11843@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>    >>Again, note that Andy has been the leading vote getter for
>    >>two elections.
>    >...
>    >Bottom Line- there is nothing wrong with attempting to recall
>    >someone based upon their voting record, we put people there
>    >according to their political bent- and we expect them to hold
>    >up their end of the bargin.
>    >
>    >We attempt to do this all of time- check bounchers, sexual
>    >harassers, sexual misconduct- most in political office known
>    >that a recall takes - money and energy that most people do
>    >not want to get involved in. They either ride out the storm,
>    >or the resign under pressure from associates and the party.
>
>So a proper and legitimate VOTE is the same as check bouncers, sexual
>harassers, sexual misconduct?
>

Well if we look at politics in general this may be true- but I am at a
loss as to how you make this connection, I did not make a connection between
proper/legitimate vote and check bouncers etc.- I was making a point that
elected officials do not act in ways that we would approve of, after their
election.

>Was this a Soviet "vote"? Was Andy only supposed to mark the "CORRECT"
>item on the ballot? And the fact that he checked the Politically Incorrect
>box makes him the same as a, say, sexual harasser?
>

I don't know what Andy should or shouldn't vote for and in what way.  This
information is not available.  I am saying that even if he had 2 years of
popular vote, and then in his second year voted in a way that was contrary
to what he supposibly believes and said he would do, then people have a 
right to call him on it, and if deemed serious enough, a recall can be
initiated.

I never made any connection between PI and sexual harassment.  I made a point
about people we elect (by popular vote) that turn out not to be as advertised.

If you bought a product with a warranty (or guarantee) that made statements about
any defects repaired in the first year- then a defect occured within the first
year, then they changed their mind and stated they would not honor their word,
you would be upset- I assume.

>I didn't think you'd be so obvious about this. Interesting.
>

This statement is vague- I am not sure what you mean- it seems to be something
you are saying to yourself.
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: Name the company or shut up
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 03:44:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.020041.569@pb2esac.uucp> jlbrand@pb2esac.uucp (Jack Brand) writes:
    >Pure B.S. As has been pointed out ad infinitum here and
    >elsewhere, the most recent example, Packwood, was most
    >definitely "PC" on most women's issues. Sure helped protect
    >him, didn't it? Oh, and remember Gary Hart? That liberal, PC
    >media bunch just let him right off the hook last election,
    >didn't they?

Oh, good heavens no. He wasn't PC enough! After all, the women leading
the recall was the one he defeated in the prior election, and who also
played some part in the campaign of the woman he defeated this time.

How DARE a man run against a woman.



-- 
I believe Gennifer Flowers.

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em! (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (x4604 (Hauskins))
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Is this wrong, or what?
Date: 5 Jan 93 19:05:01 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <106183@bu.edu> kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.085004.10951@netcom.com>
>phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>
>>BTW - I'd send the following joke to r.h.f., but, A. It may have already
>>been submitted, and B. You probably wouldn't see it as a joke.
>
>>Why did the chicken cross the road?
>
>>Because the Western Eurocentric Male dominated human-race entered its
>>world, removed its culture and religated it to a life of domestic 
>
[deleted stuff]
>	
>I've seen this almost as frequently as "Gawd, I love the smell of napalm
>in the morning!"...

Well, it is hard to come up with jokes about something, when that something 
reeks of truth.

It will be long in coming when people see history for what it is, both good
and bad, instead of just seeing people who react because of their own insecurities.

And like some many of the stories we see about 'bad people' and 'bad companies' they
have similar thread- denial of the facts.

We have a wonderful history of avoidance and coverup.  

Maybe the strong 'reaction' to PC is just a result of latent knowledge about
the truth of the progress of humanity.  It is old standard stuff- react rather
than think. 
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: guido@island.COM (Guido Marx)
Subject: Re: Well, even Adolph had to start at thge bottom ...
Organization: Island Graphics Corp.  San Rafael, Ca.
Distribution: ba
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:07:53 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.233744.1311@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>SJMN today:
>
>Andy Pugno, 19-year old Political Science major at UC-Davis, self described
>as conservative and a Republican, is facing a recall for his seat on
>the executive council of the Associated Students of the University of
>California.
>...
>Sig Heil Merline - fuck democracy, how dare a popularly elected person
>vote against the way YOU want. Too bad we don't have no labor kamps, eh?

Seems to me that Mr. Pugno is free to vote the way he sees fit as
a member of the executive council of the A.S..  Also seems to me that
people are free to launch a recall campaign against him if they don't
like the way he votes.  If he is as popular as you say, he should win
the recall easily.  Frankly, I have trouble understanding what you are
complaining about, seems to me that we have a group of people exercising
their freedom of association - something you seem to favor.

Guido

Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: For those that care enough to read the very best
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:49:51 GMT

For those that care: A correction from sloppy editing. A woman who is leading
an effort to recall Packwood ran against him in 1986 and supported the
liberal congressman whom Packwood just defeated. Between the line noise
and the netcom hangs (and typing on/off while working) I dropped and mangled
part of the sentence.

In the meantime, how many people a still think Michels of SCO has been
"charged" with anything?

And R.H.F. still has a PC whiff.

And, can't we talk about something more interesting on ba.politics than
cable TV -- say, how about them NAMBLA guys ..... ?


-- 
I believe Gennifer Flowers.

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em! (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
From: glambert@pyramid.com (George Lambert)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:34:11 GMT
Organization: Pyramid Technology

In article <13824@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <106184@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
>> In article <13784@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>> >How about learning to read for pleasure, instead of being a slave to the
>> >opiate of the masses?
>> 
>> Isn't it ironic, though,  that the biggest competitor to television as a
>> mind-enslaver is a certain Book?
>
>You mean, there's only one book available to read?  Wow!
>
>Which Book?  You mean _Das Kapital_?  It certainly is responsible
>(indirectly) for more murders than any other book in history.
>
Given the Crusades, the Hundred Years War, the Inquistion, the bulk of 
persecution of the rest of the Middle Ages, the subjugation and genocide 
of native cultures in the new and third worlds under the guise of "Christian
Enlightenment", and any number of other historical atrocities based upon
belief in the Bible, Clayto, I'd say that your interest in gays has caused you
to lose your once strong grasp of history.

The Bible beats Das Kapital hands down.

George Lambert
From: flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Well, even Adolph had to start at thge bottom ...
Date: 5 Jan 1993 19:57:07 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: ba
Reply-To: flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham)
NNTP-Posting-Host: bendenweyr

phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
|> Now, given that the rules are of a democratic nature, one would expect
|> that no one save an idiot or a fascist would have a popularily elected
|> person (at least twice mind you -- so his platform(s) is well known)
|> be "recalled" for implementing his platform.

This person was elected based on a platform.  Was that the same platform
that he was using when he voted as he did in the two council votes?  What
was his stated platform during the elections?

|> Now the essential point is that Merline is upset that her views are not
|> supported by a democratic process -- so she tries a coercive process.

How is the recall process that she is invoking coercive?  If it involves
a popular vote, then her technique is democratic.

				...jim
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:52:19 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <ubrtf2c@zola.esd.sgi.com>, cj@eno.esd.sgi.com (C J Silverio) writes:
> walsh@optilink.COM (Mark Walsh) writes:
> |From article <1992Dec30.210516.27444@smsc.sony.com>, by markc@smsc.sony.com (Mark Corscadden):
# |# 2)  Are you sick *enough* that you're interested in taking political
# |#     action to force the offending companies to mend their ways?
# 
# |No, I'm sick of people suggesting governmental intrusion
# |everytime a business does something that they do not like.
# 
# If cable companies were normal businesses, I'd agree with you.
# But in every place I've gotten cable service, the cable provider
# was a monopoly.  I couldn't punish one provider for bad service

WHY?

# by going to another one.  A political solution is possibly the
# only one in this case.
# 
# cj@eno.esd.sgi.com      C J Silverio/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720

How about the political solution of allowing competition in cable
service, as some cities have already done?  How about learning to
read for pleasure, instead of being a slave to the opiate of the
masses?
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:47:02 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <106184@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
> In article <13784@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> >How about learning to read for pleasure, instead of being a slave to the
> >opiate of the masses?
> 
> Isn't it ironic, though,  that the biggest competitor to television as a
> mind-enslaver is a certain Book?

You mean, there's only one book available to read?  Wow!

Which Book?  You mean _Das Kapital_?  It certainly is responsible
(indirectly) for more murders than any other book in history.


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (coram populo)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Date: 7 Jan 1993 17:42:36 GMT
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <13827@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.021658.2463@netcom.com>, mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:
>> In article <13784@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>> >How about learning to
>> >read for pleasure, instead of being a slave to the opiate of the
>> >masses?
>> 
>> Who's talking about religion here?
>> -- 
>> Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
>
>Television is the opiate of the masses today.
>
>-- 

 TV is just one of them.  It is the whole spectrum of our lives. We are 
consumers- not producers of anything terribly concrete.  

We want nice cars, homes, clothes, etc.  We pass this along to our childern,
problem is that most them get it all of this without any struggle.  They
are given these things becuase parents don't want their childern to go
without- like they did.  So our childern simply expect to get these things
without effort.  Then they get bored, then they turn to TV, and part of
it that is the result of parents who are wound up in their own lives and
trying to get their own things.

We treat childern oddly after a certain age, say 12-14, we seem to think
they are totally prepared to go out and face a world that is very complex
and filled with consumer bait.


Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: dan@BofA.com (Dan Brockman)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Date: 13 Jan 93 02:05:39 GMT
Organization: Bank of America, Capital Products, RMTG #5906


Neither the Bible nor Das Kapital was responsible for those 
deaths.  These books were perhaps excuses or pretexts, but
the responsibility lies with the perpetrators such as 
Torquemada, Mao and Stalin, not with Moses and Marx.
-- 
 Daniel Brockman             tel 415-953-0406, fax 415-622-2892
 Bank of America, Dept 5906, 555 Calif St
 San Francisco 94104 USA    email uunet!odinba!dan dan@bofa.com
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (x4604 (Hauskins))
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Why Do We Have Separate Restrooms? (WAS Re: Gays, the military...)
Date: 5 Jan 93 18:41:23 GMT
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <1993Jan5.092411.12770@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>In article <lkhubrINN1e0@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham) writes:
>>|> Why then have those professional male athletes (that are homosexual):
>>|>   1. Entered their professional sports profession.
>>|>   2. THEN announced their homosexuality
>>|>   3. Then complained about unease and a marked difference in treatment
>>|>      in that very locker room setting?
>>
>>Professional male athletes are not the general population.  I would
>>not be surprised by either statement - that the general population
>>doesn't care, and that athletes do, nor would I be surprised at both
>>being true at the same time.
>
>
>That's a very BALD assertion. Perhaps that's what you'd like to believe, but,
>it is not the situation in general.
>
>WHY should pro athletes be "more" bothered?
>
>After all, the PC line is that dislike of being around homosexuals
>is from fear, low self-esteem and other such things. If any thing,
>given the egos and high self esteem of pro's, it should be the inverse.
>
>
>

And you have made assertions that are somewhat tenuous as well. There are
studies that show people have ungrounded fears of different things, or at
least appear to ungrounded. 

Why would pro-atheletes have high self-esteem or strong egos.  Remember that
many egos are built on falsehoods about oneself.  And if such high self
esteem were the case, why drug abuse, why womanizing (leading in some cases
to HIV contraction).  Pro-atheletes are built mentally and physically to
be basically one thing- they are not created to be humanitarians, social
workers, philosophers, etc. they are to make money.

And many of them, and it is just a guess from my information, are probably
very uncomfortable around gay atheletes, because they all believe they are
somehow potential targets.  That somehow they could be made to do things
they don't want to do.  

If they are strong in their own self and have good esteem, they would simply
know that their is no problem... that they have control over their own bodies
and minds.  This is the very basis of the problem in my view.  People who
lack confidence and self esteem to feel that they have control over and of
themselves and that others are who they are, and one may or may not be part
of that.  

Interesting to me are the cases of people knowing someone, working with them,
liking them, etc. then they find out they are gay- and bang, they reactive
training kicks in and suddenly they are uncomfortable or disgusted.  It all
comes down to conduct and behavior no matter what the person does it their
private and public life.

It is two-faced or hypocritical to like someone as you currently know them,
then to suddenly not like them becuase of something you learn about them
that has no harm or context in your own life, as long as all conduct is on
the up and up.