HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Trepidations of a stoned Mac user
Date: 9 Nov 92 12:59:24 GMT
 <92303.092620ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET> <jna15bh@rpi.edu>
Organization: Forschungszentrum Juelich

In article <jna15bh@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@jec322.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
says:
>
>|> >nonetheless, I see a lotta c00l stuff in the WPS; and I do want some of
>it.
>|>
>|> Nonetheless there is a lotta c00l stuff in the finder; and I want some of
>it
>|> in WPS.
>
>perhaps we should get togher? :)
>
>[thuder. Lighting. Sceen Shift To Dark+Dank+Dusty Laboratory]
>
>Come Igor. And bring the CPU. Don't forget to turn off the life-o-meter.
>Adn that funny electric-arcs thing. Don't worry, we'll figure out
>what its for one of these days.
>
Perhaps we will see that by the time Taligent comes out with their stuff :-)

Michael Bode.
From: erno@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Erno Pena)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Sculley considered for Clinton's Sec. of Commerce
Date: 5 Nov 92 07:55:18 GMT
Reply-To: erno@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

<IO92142@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes
-In talking with a fellow Macintosh Advocate...
-a rumor was brought up that Sculley was in the
-position to be appointed to direct the Chamber
-of Commerce...or something like that.
-

The way I understood it, Sculley is one of several prominent, outspoken CEO's  
of high technology corporations that are under consideration for the post of  
Secretary of Commerce in President-Elect Clinton's cabinet. I think he'd be  
an OK Secretary of Commerce, but I'd rather see Clinton choose Ross Perot  
instead. [no political flames please :-)]

--

E r n e s t o   F.   B.   P e n a      |     "Volite Magis,
................................      |      Facite Magis,
erno@uiuc.edu   NeXTmail accepted      |      Estote Magis."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jbailey@world.std.com (james d bailey)
Subject: Re: EGGPLANT, IMPLANT, EMPATH, BLAZEPLANT...
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 04:29:59 GMT

jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:

>The Quadra 700 has 3 accelerator slots if that's how you wish to use them,
>you can plug 3 Radius Rockets into the NuBus slots and blast off.  Add
>Rocketshare and you have a virtual Appletalk network between 4 computers.

>I could care less about the Video Toaster, personally, or built-in VCR/TV
>output.  I want a workstation, not something to make videos with. Video
>creation, etc. is Amiga's strongest niche, but I don't think that this
>area is really all that important to the average user.  Joystick ports 
>are of no interest as well.  You don't get a machine of this level to 
>play games on.  That's silly.  Besides, I find the mouse and keyboard
>perfectly adequate.  Joysticks belong on Nintendos.

I don't know, a Quadra 900 runs Hellcats quite nicely using a Gravis
mousestick.  I bought a Q900 for software development, but I have nothing
against games.

>Jess Holle
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: EGGPLANT, IMPLANT, EMPATH, BLAZEPLANT...
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 21:01:03 GMT

In article <1Xa7TB9w165w@bugend.edvina.se> ralph@bugend.edvina.se (Staffan Vilcans) writes:
>dtiberio@csws20.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
>
>> 	EMPLANT = DEATH OF HIGH PRICED MACINTOSH.
>> 	FULL MACINTOSH QUADRA SYSTEMS FOR UNDER $4,000.
>
>Well, I doubt that *even* if the Emplant works. I don't think Apple
>will give up without a fight.

   They won't have to.  Amigas have zero advertizing in the U.S., where
Apple has the majority of their sales.  Even if Emplant were to work
(and NOBODY has been able to get it to work yet), and even if they were
to somehow guarantee that future versions of MacOS would work with it
(remember how long it took ReadySoft to make A-Max compatible with 
System 7 after Apple rendered System 7 incompatible with earlier versions
of A-Max?), there is the fact that few in the U.S. even know that the Amiga
exists, and most that do regard it as a toy.  No purchasers of systems
for businesses or schools would give Amigas with Emplants a passing glance
as serious replacements for genuine Macs.

>"Piracy is theft." / FAST
>"Property is theft." / Pierre Proudhon

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: UC525655@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Mark Eaton)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Organization: University of Missouri
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 92 16:41:27 CST

In article <1992Nov8.074751.12249@u.washington.edu>
tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
 
>
>smytonj@carr54.alleg.edu (James Smyton) writes:
>>From what I have seen(note this qualification), the Mac has a much larger
>>software selection compared to NeXTs.  How is NeXTs selling point
>>justified by software in leiu of this difference?
>
>How many word processors do you use?  How many spreadsheets?  How many
>data bases?  How many symbolic mathematics systems?  If the answer for
>each of these is 1 or 2, then you have your answer.
>
>Who cares if NeXT has N programs that do X, the Mac has 5N, and the IBM
>PC clone has 25N?  All I care about is how good the best 1 or 2 are, so
>I don't care if the PC has the most bad programs, and the Mac has the
>second most bad programs, and the NeXT has the fewest bad programs.
>
So you don't want anymore software developed for the NeXT? You're
happy with the current level? ;) Seriously, more software gives you
a wider range of choices. Why limit your options?
Its very nice to say you don't need choices when you don't have any!
 
 
>
>--Tim Smith
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Eaton                    | Opinions? We're not allowed to have
UC525655@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU | opinions at Mizzou... get back to me
                              | in 2 years when I graduate... ;)
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Date: 12 Nov 92 11:27:13 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <FISCHER.92Nov3013446@steiner.iesd.auc.dk>, fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer) writes:
> 
> NeXT has colour, too, but they do not have small screens. This makes
> NeXT colour a bit expensive, even for the low-end colour system. I
> believe this is reasonable -- a Quadra 900 with a 14" colour monitor
> would make little sense.

Depends on what you are doing. For what I do, it would make a lot of sense.
I need a colour monitor for much of the development work I do, so I can see
how my programs are going to look in colour.

However, I could also use a lot of screen space to looking and program
listings and working with the debugger.

A monochrome or grey-scale full page display would make a nice match for
that colour monitor.

As it is, today I have a 13" color and a 12" b/w monitor. Of course, I don't
have a Quadra 900, either....

Again, things make sense when you consider how a product is used. The fact
that the NeXT doesn't have small, inexpensive colour products limits its
potential use.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: andrew@cubetech.com
Subject: Re: the NeXT option (Was Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT)
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 10:55:41 GMT

In article <TTN.92Nov6005101@sepelrastas.cs.tut.fi> ttn@cs.tut.fi (Tero Nieminen) writes:
>In article <2wh14#q@rpi.edu> johnsd2@vccsouth29.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>
>   Ah; so it doens't pre-emptively switch from thread to thread
>   just process to process.
>
>Right. Threads are a Mach kernel feature that NeXT takes use of. Also,
>SunOA has a sysV light weight process library, but it doesn't seem to be
>utilised too much. Probably, because it isn't very portable.

Not true.  Mach is not a normal unix kernel.  Threads are preemtively
scheduled in Mach.  Processes are simply collections of threads (i.e.
you cannot have a process without a thread).

Thread does not imply either preemtive or cooperative mt.


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com     | "Carpe Nocturn - I get more work done after
Andrew Loewenstern      |  2 a.m. than most people do all day."
Cube Technologies, Inc. |                          - Simson Garfinkel
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn)
Subject: Re: Where will NeXT be in 4 years?
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:16:02 GMT

smytonj@quig19.alleg.edu (James Smyton) writes:
> Ok.
> I guess I have learned a few things about the kind of printers and modems  
> the NeXT can work with.  What amazes me is how defensive the NeXT owners  
> are.  One post about the fact that I personally don't like them that much  
> and I have about 20 people on my butt.  Maybe the reason is that they all  
> have sunk some dough in to a company with an uncertain future?

Might it be that your post had some inaccuracies?
Those things you learned, for instance?

Only 20 people?  Try saying something nasty about Macs (particularly  
something inaccurate) and see how many people jump on you...

--
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
ITS Systems Programmer            (handles NeXT-type mail)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@jec314.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Reply-To: johnsd2@jec314.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:23:56 GMT

In article 9310@cubetech.com, andrew@cubetech.com () writes:
>In article <lsr-051192110110@lsr.taligent.com> lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov5.120538.2602@cubetech.com>, andrew@cubetech.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> of Quickdraw or lack thereof compared to PostScript, but the fact that
>>> with DPS, you have the same imaging model for _all_ output.  Unless
>>> QDGX is a DPS clone, you are still where you used to be: you still
>>
>>Or unless there's a 1-1 mapping from QDGX to Postscript.  The problem today
>>is that QuickDraw doesn't support a lot of things that Postscript does.  My
>>impression is that QDGX will support more (if not all) those things.
>
>It's not just doing the same things as DPS (more of not all?  I'd
>definitely like to see it...), you'd have to be a DPS clone.

Not necessarily; it might do the same things in a different way.

>Otherwise you stille have to translate all your QDGX code to PS to
>print (if possible).

The OS will do this for you. (it better!) So this stuff would work
on QuickDraw printers as well. PS code does not work on anything but
PostScript printers.

>  Additionally, if it's not written by Adobe, then
>there is no guarantee that you will get the same thing on the printer
>without a lot of tweaking around (who wants to do that).

Interesting assertion. Justify it, please. I don't believe you. :)

>  It will
>still be better than vanilla QD.

Yeah, it will.

>>> have to write code to draw to the screen, and code to draw to the
>>> printer.  A unified imaging model is the biggest win with DPS.  It
>>
>>In general, you don't have to write separate code, unless you need to use
>>direct Postscript code.  Presumably QDGX will reduce the need to write
>>directly in Postscript.
>
>Well, since the printer can't understand QD, you have to generate the
>PS code somewhere.  It depends on what you are doing.

Well, maybe YOUR printer doesn't understand QD, but MINE does.. :)

In case, let the OS take care of such details. If you use raw postscript,
non-PS printers wont work. (on a Mac, anyway)

[deletia- viewedit vs IB]
>
>>> limited to sending 32k, and I don't think they work over the network.
>>
>>Apple events are network transparent.  Except for the 32k limit, you could
>>send MacApp objects in an Apple event as well.
>
>Yes, but how easy/difficult is it to use AppleEvents.  With DO's I
>don't have to write any additional code, so I use them constantly
>(especially for synchronized drawing between threads in my own app).

Apple Events require a fair bit of code, but not a huge amount. The
OS deals with the details for you. What is a "DO"? The context was nuked,
and I dont recognise the acronym.

[deletia MacApp vs IB]



---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
From: model03@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (John Deke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Trepidations of a stoned Mac user
Date: 7 Nov 92 13:30:09 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <jna15bh@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@jec322.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
> |> Intel processors. System 7.x is made for Motorola 68000 or higher processors
> |> and can't be used with older Motorola processors like the 6502.
> 
> That's true. However, nobody is claiming the 68000 machines and
> the 6502 machines to be compatible.

Minor point: wasn't the 6502 by Western Design, not Motorola? Or did Western
Design just manufacture a Motorola chip?
From: tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Date: 10 Nov 92 07:59:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov10.075959.17985
Organization: University of Washington School of Law, Class of '95

>
>And I suppose a Classic beefed up to 60 MHz would be faster than a Quadra.   

Everyone seems to approach this from the wrong side.  What really matters
is the relative speed of you and the computer.  Rather than speeding up
the computer, why not slow yourself down?  Instead of spending a lot of
money for a faster machine, a few bucks invested in LSD before a computing
session will achieve the same relative effect.

Turn on.  Log in.  Drop out!

--Tim Smith
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
From: feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke)
Date: 12 Nov 92 11:41:53 -0700
Reply-To: sean@digaudio.byu.edu

In article <1992Nov12.053029.19457@cuug.ab.ca>  writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.170715.24197@gn.ecn.purdue.edu>  
jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:

However, when I write a smallish C program, the
>>executable always seems to end up significantly smaller on the Mac than 
>>on the SUN.  Is this also the case for the NeXT?
>
>Depends on the program I guess. You also need to strip the executable.


NeXT executables, once stripped, are still pretty big if they use specific  
libraries (the sound and music kits are big ones).  In general, the Mac  
ones are smaller by a good deal since the Mac's OS is designed for  
compactness as well as graphics speed, and NeXT must run on top of a UNIX  
design, as well as a OOP library collection.

But then again, nothing compares to Word 5.0.  :)

--

Sean Luke
Brigham Young University                   MILK:  It Comes From Cows
sean@digaudio.byu.edu  
NeXTmail and nifty Mac stuff welcome
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: smytonj@pell4l24 (James Smyton)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 02:57:01 GMT

>Who cares if NeXT has N programs that do X, the Mac has 5N, and the IBM
>PC clone has 25N?  All I care about is how good the best 1 or 2 are, so
>I don't care if the PC has the most bad programs, and the Mac has the
>second most bad programs, and the NeXT has the fewest bad programs.
>
I use the NeXT here at Allegheny College and have a Macintosh IIcx in my  
room.  First, I have not seen a word processor as good as MS Word 5.1 for  
the Mac on any of the NeXT machines.  The best I have seen for the NeXT is  
Word Perfect 1.0.1.  This program does not give the user the versatility  
of Word 5.  It does not have a draw program, for simple illustrations, and  
the number of text editing tools does not compare.  My previous point was  
that I am not looking for more than one word processor, but I am looking  
for a selection.

Another shortcoming regarding the NeXT is the lack of manufacturers that  
make any perhiperals.  Laser printers, scanners, modems, _monitors_, and  
alternitave hardware in general.  Again I am not looking to have three  
modems. I am looking for a choice.

With regard to the posts regarding prices, how many people need a Quadra  
950?!?  Why not a IIvx?  NeXT has a very limited hardware line, where  
Apple's overlaps its own products.  A good Macintosh for the average user  
should only be around $3000.  Don't flame me saying that everyone needs a  
040 machine.  Besides on the NeXT Station Turbos over in Quigley Hall(The  
Econ. department on our campus) the info panel shows that the machine runs  
at 30mhz.  Apple has 030s that run faster than that! Convincing me to buy  
a NeXT would be very hard work! 
--
J S  (smytonj@alleg.edu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: mmunson@animal.es.com (Mark Munson)
Subject: Re: Long time Mac users
Reply-To: mmunson@animal.es.com (Mark Munson)
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:14:27 GMT

TW> After the big 'NeXT has no software etc.' hoopla, I'm curious
TW> about the attitudes of long-time Mac users (say pre-Mac II) compared
TW> to newer Mac users (post-Mac II). When I say Mac user, I mean someone
TW> who really used the machine, not someone who just knew about it. It seems
TW> to me that the long-time users bought Mac's without color, big monitors,
TW> or slots. When harassed by DOS users about expandability and software,
TW> how did they reply?

TW> Terry Wilcox

We said, "just come on over and mouse around a little."  A new Mac convert
was born every time.


Really though, the analogy between PC and Mac users is vastly different.
Mac software, although sparse, was a dramatic improvment over the mostly
text-based PC applications.  Today other platforms offer a smaller set
of "me-too" applications.  If the Next or Amiga had a quantum increase in
application quality, then they would be in the same position as Mac users
were back in '85 or so. 

But they aren't.  The Mac users had a good point back then, and they have
an even better point now.  The PC users had inferior titles then, and they
are still trying to catch up.
 
(Note:  NeXT, and to a lesser extend Amiga, can only claim to be "as 
good as," or "a little better."  This isn't the same as the substantial
improvment that Macintosh software offered over PC titles of the same
time period).

I'm NOT saying that the Mac is better at everything.  There are good reasons
for getting a cheap (high power) PC, an inexpensive (good video) Amiga, or
an expensive (great development and networking) NeXT.  But for most people,
I would suspect that they would be best served by the current state of the
Macintosh market.

I wouldn't claim that the NeXT folks are going out on a limb.  The Mac folks
were taking personnal computing in a new direction that very few were aware
of.  But the NeXT users are really just taking a minor step away from where
the Mac is.  Heck, if I had the extra bucks, I'd like to have a NeXT on my
desk too (don't take the Mac away though).


But remember this is the MACINTOSH ADVOCACY board.  This is where you're 
supposed to hear the pro's and con's of Macintosh.  Some folks can't help
but try and advocate their favorite machine here also.  They invite
criticism.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@vccnw02.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!)
Reply-To: johnsd2@vccnw02.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:20:48 GMT

In article 1127@yvax.byu.edu, feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke) writes:
>In article <4fl1rfh@rpi.edu>  writes:
>
>[regarding Apple's research into scroll bars]
>
>>Apples reseach contradicts you. Mere assertion won't chagne that.
>>Amiga scroll bars may be better overall (I wouldn't know), however.
>
>
>Since Apple does non-expanding scroll bars, that Apple would find the  
>expanding type "non-intuitive" is not what I'd call "good science" :-)

Apple did the reseach BEFORE releasing the Lisa- and they tried
proportional scrollbars. They confused their subjects, too. So they
dropped them.

This was not done to justify a decision that had been made; the decision
had not yet been made when it was done.

>IMHO, expanding scroll bars make more sense.  Apple should use them.
>

I agree; The added functionality is worth confusion a few new users a little.
But when Apple designed those scroll bars, the ease-of-learning was
very important as a selling point.
---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: UC525655@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Mark Eaton)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Organization: University of Missouri
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 92 16:37:48 CST

In article <1992Nov8.060608.17559@cubetech.com>
andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern) writes:
 
>
>In article <torrie.721162819@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes:
>>spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
>>
>>>Not quite.  A Q700 is really equivalent to a non-turbo color NeXT, so
>>>that comparison is misleading.  The proper comparison is between a
>>>Q950 and a Turbo color NeXT.
>>>According to my edu price list, a Turbo Color NeXTstation 16/250 is
>>>$4790; the 21" monitor is $2392:  Total $7182
>>>A Q950 8/230 is $5520; 21" monitor is $2630, total 8150
>>>So the NeXT still has a price advantage.  Notice also that you're
>>>actually getting a better system (eg 16MB RAM vs 8).
>>
>>  Hmmm.  I didn't notice the 5 NuBus 90 slots in the Turbo Colour
>>NeXTstation last time I looked...
>
>Just what would you put in those 5 slots?  Realistically now.
>
Video Compression? Video Controller? Feedback Controller? Internal
Modem? My grandma's deck of gin cards? Anything I wanted to?
Saying there's nothing to put in the slots when the machine does'nt
have any slots is kindof obvious... If there's no slot to put a card
in, no cards are going to be developed... :>
 
>
>andrew
>--
>andrew@cubetech.com     | "Carpe Nocturn - I get more work done after
>Andrew Loewenstern      |  2 a.m. than most people do all day."
>Cube Technologies, Inc. |                          - Simson Garfinkel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Eaton                    | Opinions? We're not allowed to have
UC525655@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU | opinions at Mizzou... get back to me
                              | in 2 years when I graduate... ;)