HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tjr0868@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Reply-To: tjr0868@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Distribution: alt.magick
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:37:15 GMT

I can't help you with the history, (I not sure what I 
am about to say will help much at all, but here goes),
The regular pentagram, pointing up, was, and still is in some
places, used as a "Hex" mark.  Just watch "Warlock".  Anyway,
Satanists love to invert things that are normal in this world.
Most Satanists believe that evil is the dominant force in the
universe, so any sign they see as good is reversed.  Often the
"Our Father" is said backwards.  Nema,  live morf su reviled etc.
(That may just be rumor, I'm not sure).  Symbols are a natural 
target.  Everyone is familiar with the upside down cross and
crucifix, and the pentagram pointing down.  Other symbols are the
Egyptian heiroglyph (sp?) for "life"; a + with a circle on the
bottom.  (I think that's what it means).  However, by this definition
Hitler was a Satanist.  He took a symbol for "peace" from I forgot
who, and used a mirror image of it for the Nazi Swastica.

(Like I said, I doubt it helped).
                                             ->Later.....Spice
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
Date: 21 Dec 92 05:53:54 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <2Fe4VB1w165w@hrnowl.lonestar.org>, byte@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Sir Byte) writes:
::|:i suggest talk.magick
::|:moderated (with lenient post rulesjust keep the bible thumpers out)
::
:Pardon the typos but,  I kinda like the idea of having Xtains on ?.magick 
:if we don't have any opposite opinions well there really is'nt any point 
:of have the board it will become more like a recipe xchange circut and 
:the only topic of disscusion will be small variations in magickal rites.  
:besides the Xtains are the ones who censor were are supposed to represent 
:the open mind of the country.  Unless you would like to jump on there 
:band wagon of 'my why is the only way' and not even entertain there right 
:to hold an opinon-

There are plenty of opposing opinions in this group without including
Xtians. I think the point is not so much to censor differences of
opinion as much as to limit the number of times one gets the same
fundie formulas ranted at one.

If someone has decided ahead of time that what I am doing is evil, we
hardly have a basis for discussion.
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo the Butcher)
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 03:09:21 GMT
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


In article <1992Dec18.091426.1178@u.washington.edu> mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.224711.14248@u.washington.edu> grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer) writes:
>>
>>Fortunately, it's possible to make decent guns using low-tech tools. (The
>>weaponry used in the Civil War gives some idea of the possibilities.)  One
>>of the volumes of the _Foxfire_ series -- #5? -- has a big section on
>>gunsmithing, and your local black-powder club ought to be able to put you
>>onto other resources.  But someone, or better yet several someones, should
>>learn and practice the appropriate skills, before they're needed.
>
> Cannons are actually fairly easy to tool if you have the materials. I've
>worked with small black powder cannons made from old WWII battleship
>anti-aircraft armanent. They took the barrels (which are rather good
>quality steel) and retolled the outside and inside. Can't tell it by
>looking where they came from. You can get a good cannon with a barrel
>about four or five feet long that is rifled and fires either a six or so
>inch conical shell (big holes in things!) or can be loaded with many .30
>or so calibar lead balls (big shotgun effect). These things are rather
>easy to transport and the only upkeep is keeping rust off and making sure
>you don't pack powder in when there is a spark in there. IF you do that,
>they blow up. Good for being mounted in a settlement, that's for sure.
>
>>Join an almost-dead lodge of some dilapidated fraternal order, revive
>>it, and then have some of the members buy and donate to the lodge a chunk
>of wilderness property to serve as a lodge campsite.
>
> Gosh, who do I know doing things like that?
(the SCA?)



I know of one group that fits the bill to a "t". The Society for Creative
Anachronism. They have various land-holdings, fairly strong networking,
and already have much of the knowledge of the older "sustainable" technologies.
They also have land & some degree of social respectability, though I imagine
some people consider them to be somewhat "odd", I doubt as they are treated
with the outright paranoia many "occult" fraternities are. In my limited
experience with sca, there is a rather large overlap between sca & pagan/occult
orders... See alt.sca or for more details.

In fact, I suspect Mr Billings may be a member; who else would be building
medeaval-style cannons but the sca? (and the nordic theme would fit nicely
with a SCA personna)

-Lupo
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (Hail Eris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Date: 15 Dec 92 16:14:53 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Dec15.062017.9630@sobeco.com>, ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.) writes...
>In <1992Dec14.150930.4887@engage.pko.dec.com> stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
> 
>>In article <1992Dec14.070934.19077@sobeco.com>, ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.) writes...
>>>(This is off the subject of magick, but I think the point is being missed
> 
>>What is the point then, Ladislas?
> 
>The point is as indicated in the text that followed.  I think we are missing
>the point because it is not the type of energy that we use/will use, the level
>of technology or where we get the resources from that will garantee the
>survival of our civilization.  It is not only a question of economical or
>industrial survival.  The ecological and social aspects must also be taken into
>consideration.  Worldwide population should also be considered.

I think that's fairly obvious.

>This civilization is gangrenous.  Like the Phoenix, it must immolate itself
>to be reborn from its ashes.  The collapse of the roman civilization didn't
>wipe out all existing knowledge as some fear would happen should ours collapse.
>I'd say the collapse of the roman civ. paved the way for our civilization.
>I heard somewhere that when something dies, it favors the birth of something
>new.

Oh... well then why don't we just throw ourselves on the pyre like the other
dorks.

>In our century, we have become obsessed with keeping death away at all cost.
>How many terminally ill patients await their death in sufferings because we
>might find someday, a way to cure them?  Some are prepared to suffer in the
>hope that they can be cured.  Some would be content to die but they are
>robbed of that freedom.  Lately, euthanasia (sp?) as been granted to some
>people.  My opinion is that our civilization is terminally ill.  Refusing
>to let it die when its time's up might only cause greater suffering.

Oh yea?  What if you're just another idiot?  Then we allowed out civilization
to die for nothing.

>>>... problem with the human specy really is: greed.

Some people are greedy... some aren't.

>I sure hope there is.  But don't you think that this is one of those solutions
>where the whole world must change, as in every human being?

Every human being changes every second... just as the world itself is
constantly changing.

>It is an interesting tangent to the original subject.  But it would be more
>at home in alt.save.the.world.

Ah... well then.. what else is there to say.


>I find it hard to believe that even magick can have such worldwide effects.
> 
>Ladislas.

Then you're not much of a magickian, are you?
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.horror.cthulu
From: john@physiol.su.OZ.AU (John Mackin)
Subject: Binah and 333
Followup-To: alt.magick
Reply-To: John Mackin <john@civil.su.oz.au>
Organization: Department of Physiology, University of Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 12:15:27 GMT

Someone (the articles have all expired) suggested some weeks ago that
there may have been a Qabalistic connection of some kind between
Binah and the number 333.  Of course, this is the number of Choronzon/
Shugal, who would traditionally be held to be in Daath rather than
Binah.  I asked for discussion in a followup to their article and
haven't seen any.

I have spent some time since then looking at gematria for 333, and
have not been able to come up with anything that is even vaguely
plausible to connect it with Binah.  Of course, there is the blindingly
obvious, and IMHO shallow and unsatisfactory, claim that since Binah is
the third Sephira, then we write "3" three times, but that is _so_
shallow that I can't take it seriously.  So, before I forget this
entirely, is there any further comment?  In particular, if the
original poster sees this (which is the reason for the crosspost
to alt.horror.cthulu; readers of that group, please note that
followups to this article are directed by default to alt.magick,
where frivolous posts are not all that generally appreciated -- thanks!)
I'd really like to know if you had something in mind.

If you post in response, perhaps you could mail me a copy as well
to make sure I see it.  Thanks.

-- 
John Mackin <john@civil.su.oz.au>
Knox's box is a 286.                 Fox in Socks does hacks and tricks
Knox's box is hard to fix.           To fix poor Knox's box for kicks.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: "sonia brock" <sonia.brock@canrem.com>
Subject: widening gyre
Reply-To: "sonia brock" <sonia.brock@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: alt
Date: 20 Dec 92 23:13:10 EST

On further thought, you may have a point here & perhaps I should do some
reading.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (My name is...)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:11:02 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Dec13.013939.12458@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo the Butcher) writes...
>In article <JOSHUA.92Dec11143746@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Dec11.182521.19366@u.washington.edu> 
>>grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer) writes:
>I disagree that exploitation of space resources will solve our economic problems
>Unless we can get our hands on a non-rocket low-earth orbit insertion system.
>Think about how difficult it is to get a couple of tons of space shuttle
>into orbit (not to mention the nifty hole in the ozone layer it punches
>each launch). Now try to imagine how many shuttle flights it would take
>to put EVEN ONE factory into orbit, automated OR manned. If mass driver
>technologies were developed (Or extremely strong "space elevator" fibres)
>this situation would turn around rapidly.
> 
>Fusion as it is envisaged today is hardly the savior its proponents would
>have you think. Most of the energy of the fusion reaction is in the form
>of nasty radiation, not usable heat. This will create large amounts
>of radioactive high-tech apparatus that needs to be replaced often. PLUS
>(as it is envisaged today) fusion requires tritium manufacture, which
>requires lithium; a rather rare & nasty substance to have around.
>Fission power, a lower tech resource, is far more promising as the energy
>of tomorrow.
> 
>The "club of rome" predictions are basically _entropic_ calculations. I
>agree that space industries would invalidate them, but considering the
>direction that fundamental research into launch technologies is going (nowhere),)$$
>this is not a forseeable occurrence in the near future. Had our species used
>the resources we used for the cold war on space technologies instead, we
>would be in much better shape for a future in space.
> 
>The only other way I can see our species getting itself out of this mess is
>the development of some sort of "Von Neumann machines" which would be 
>capable of replicating themselves & sending them off to build our space
>mines & factories. This would lower the entropic mess we are in...
> 
>Incidentally, most of the "Club of Rome" computer models assumed up to
>10 times the known resources on earth AND took into account possible
>technological advances, such as fusion...
> 
>Most of the "Club of Rome" conclusions were invalidated by ideology, not
>any computer model, or scientific argument. I would post a large article
>on these computer models, if there is interest. (I am not sure it is the
>proper place)...
> 
>-Scott

It is the proper place in my humble opinion.  

It's a whole lot easier to bring space to us than to get us into space
at this point.  We're magickians, why think with limitations like the
mundanes? 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo the Butcher)
Subject: Re: widening gyre
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:54:09 GMT
Distribution: alt
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec17.4711.6174@dosgate> "sonia brock" <sonia.brock@canrem.com> writes:
>
>SM> You might want to read the Pound biography on this. "Gyre" here
>SM>could easily be a reference to the vortex idea that the fascists Pound,
>SM>Eliot and others were subscribed to and used as a way of defining the
>SM>self and the universe. This is fully and modernistically explained in the
>SM>Pound biography.
>
>      Thanks, I think ;-}
>
>     The fascist leanings of Pound and Eliot does not mean that everything
>     they thought/wrote had a right wing tendency.  Even a stopped clock
>     is right twice a day.  Artists and writers in general are often just
>     slightly nuts anyways but, thankfully, this does not seem to interfere
>     with their inner vision.  Just goes to show you can't trust your logical
>     conscious mind much further than you can hurl it.
>
>     I wonder what the political spectrum is in the occult movement,
>     and judging by the books available on it it is a movement of one
>     sort or another.
>
>Sonia Brock
>---
>  DeLuxe 1.25 #4202  "When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails"
>--
>Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
>World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044



On the topic of "occult" political spectrum; it has been my experience that
the stronger the Crowleyan association of the practicioner, the more likely
SHe is to espouse libertarian/anarchistic beliefs.
Many of the "earth mother" type pagans seem to lean farther to the left...
just my $0.02

-Lupo
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: talk.magick
Date: 17 Dec 92 14:04:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec16.214645.2410@primerd.prime.com>, jasonp@bungee.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Jason Pascucci) writes...
>In article <71826@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:
>|> 9212.16 e.v.
> 
>Ditto with misc.magick. My intention was to  avoid the stigmata
>associated with the Talk groups. 
> 
>|> I still want to know:
>|> 
>|> 
>|> Why?  For what purpose?  
> 
>To expand our offering. Not everybody (in fact, I believe
>less than 1/2) gets the alt groups.

I've heard that a lot of people don't get the TALK group either.

I like having only one group as opposed to all the different 
magick groups mentioned.

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@bungee.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Jason Pascucci)
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:16:07 GMT

In article <1gnu5cINNrbt@agate.berkeley.edu>, key@soda.berkeley.edu (peter li'ir key) writes:
|> i suggest talk.magick
|> moderated (with lenient post rulesjust keep the bible thumpers out)

Erg. I suppose, if this becomes a consensus, but I don't have to like it. :)

|> i think misc.magick is okay, but to my mind putting it in the misc groups
|> diminishes the topic of magick.  to me it's like saying "don't mind us
|> we'll just take this little alley over here. don't hurt us."  perhaps, it
|> is my in your face attitude, but i think we can deal with the initial
|> bashing

Actually, on that level, it seems to me to add, not detract,
from the all-encompassing nature that 'Magick' means (to some). 

|> i also think that putting it under sci.hermetics isn't quite right.  
|> hermetics is just a little narrower in my mind than magick is.  hermetics
|> generally covers the 'western' branches of magick, but not the 'eastern'

Yes, this was my thought too. 

|> peter li'ir key, just this queer mystic ya know?
|> key@soda.berkeley.edu

If we do make it moderated, we really should have a little
more stringent guildlines than others. I'd like to see
rejected posts circulated to the N moderators, just to assure
that they are really not useful. Also, some kind of editorial
policy, which should be used in rarity, for seperating
the dreck from the gold. 

However, overall, I'd still like to see if we can't make a go
of it unmoderated...Yes there will be problems, but I don't
like the moderation policy on some groups, and my
Thelemic instincts (if any) tell me it's not the way to go. 
I suggest we all just learn to use kill files, and put on ice 
the people who get obnoxious.

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@bungie.prime.com (Jason Pascucci)
Subject: Re: Hello
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:15:36 GMT

Greetings. 

Well, regardless of the reasons, here's my recommended
reading list (not in order, and probably not complete, either)
Astral travel is fairly minor in the scheme of things,
but #4 gives a workable formula. 

1) Golden Bough, Frazier
2) Konx om Pax (A must read.), Crowley.
3) Book 4, Crowley, parts 1, 2 (bound together, usually), and 4
(aka Magick in Theory and Practice) (I believe it was 3 that
was never written, but I might have gotten the numbering
messed up.)
4) The Golden Dawn, Regardie (The Flying Rolls, Mathers, has
a lot of infomation also)
5) The Magus, Barrett
6) The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosencreutz (ignore the commentary)
(No author listed)
7) The Fama and Confessio, the doctrine of the Rosicrucians.
(A must read.)
8) The Bible (Hebrew Old Testiment, with translations. I haven't
found a suitable source for the new testiment yet, but there
are some fairly interesting things in my 1820 copy of the
New Testiment, King James version, that are different from the
modern bibles.)
9) The Quran
10) The Book of the Law. Aiwass and Therion (Crowley). Actually,
it might be more reasonable to pick up the "Holy Books
of Thelema", which contains a copy of the Book of the Law,
in addition to a few others. 
11) Egyptian Book of the Dead

Avoid the newer books. Yes, there's a lot of good information in them,
but until you have a grounding, adn can see what the hell
they are actually talking about, it doesn't get you that far. 
I've seen some real atrocities, with some real gems deep down
in the middle. Horrible. Actually, I normally class
4 as a 'newer book' with similar pitfalls, but it has enough
redeeming features to be worthy of early study. 

Having a good strong background in Jung and Freud helps. I recommend,
as always, to read the source before reading commentaries
or derivations. 

Studing Latin is supremely helpful. Hebrew, next so, and
Greek. (The last I haven't had time for, damn it all.It 
kills me everytime I stumble through the 'Hymn to Pan'.)

If you are going to ever want to talk to Tagi, study up on
latest physical theory, heavily so on Mutliworld theory. 
And having a good grounding in Cyber-reality would
help too. 

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonP@primerd.prime.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: Binah
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:35:00 +0000

>stuczyns@presto.ig.com (Martin Stuczynski)


>Forgive my ignorance but what is Binah? I read a post here recently
>that stated :

>      333=Binah


>I'm the 3rd son of a 3rd son. I was assigned office #333 at my place
>of employment and I just met an East Indian woman named Bina. What can
>it mean?

Its time to put on your Nikes and RUN

:-)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: TeXBook of Lies, v1.1 announcement
From: serhienk@cobber.cord.edu (David Serhienko)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:00:55 GMT
Organization: Concordia College, Moorhead, MN

In article <17DEC199202034053@rigel.tamu.edu> spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius) writes:
>
>
>I've found a couple errors in version 1.0 of the TeX _Book of Lies_ I posted
>here and placed at slopoke a while back.
>

> Subgenius

What is Slopoke?  An ftp site?  Can I get the address if it is?  E-mail it 
if you can.  advaTHANKSnce

David W Serhienko
serhienk@cobber.cord.edu
"Disclaimer?  My school wouldn't claim my thoughts or words even if they
were good..."
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:19:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec16.205642.2251@u.washington.edu>, grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer) writes...
>In article <BzB3q2.JwG@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>
> 
>Oh please.  
> 
>What I'd prefer, on the off chance that you're interested, is a 
>response that deals with the question instead of playing ostrich
>with platitudes in place of sand.
> 
>But hey, it's a free Net.  Ostrich away...
> 
>-- JMG

What exactly is the question?

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@bungie.prime.com (Jason Pascucci)
Subject: Re: Grimoir?
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:12:08 GMT

This looks like one of the things SureFire Press would
have put out. 

I have to say that sex magick doesn't necessarily imply Thelema,
nor the reverse. 

The four beginnings of invocations, I believe, are
straight out of one or two fairly common grimoire's.
I want to say that one can be attributed to Mather's
translation of the Sacred Magick of Abramelin, etc.
but I don't have a reference handy. 

(An unfortunate problem about writing at work and researching
at home. Quotations become nigh nonexistant.)

The only one which looks foreign to me is the 'x.t.l.' bit. 

Part of the reason that this may not be commonly known is that
it isn't very good. (To my mind, that is). Yes, it's quite possible 
to be an OTO ritual, but if it is, it's easy to see why they keep 
them quiet. :) Whether it's from Baphomet's hand himself is suspect.
Many of his published rituals rely heavily on Cabalistic meaning, of 
which this one has none. (Although I am going to go home and lookup 
'Beware', in a few languages.)

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 13:01:31 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <1992Dec15.231554.5753@seas.smu.edu>

I only have one question for those moralists (especially from 'earth-based'
religions) who preach that the 'point-down' or 'inverted' pentagram
(heptagram, nonagram, or even trigram!) is somehow indicative of 'evil'
or 'malevolence':


Toward what, precisely, is the point directed?


Figure it out, kiddies.

Thyagi