From: bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:00:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1992Nov9.032158.9364@alf.uib.no> magnus@ii.uib.no writes:
>>>>>> On 9 Nov 92 02:24:01 GMT, mav@cs.uq.oz.au (Simon Dennis) said:
[stuff deleted]
>I agree with a lot of what you say here, but I think there are a few
>things speaking for the d100 system with one table and descriptions.

	I was thinking myself (oh, one day not too long ago) on
using a 3d10 system.  Stats would be open-ended.  Main problem?  The
scale is too weird.  The 3d6 system has an average of 10, and is
practically a 1-20 range which is far more logical and easier to
handle, I found.  (I don't care much for the 3d6 bell curve,
though.)
	The main question is:  to bell curve or not to bell curve?
(Or to Shadowrun...urk)

>Uhm? I didn't intend using a d100, we always use d10 x 10 + d10 -
>which comes to the same thing. This gives you the added bonus of
>switching the digits f.ex for hit location when rolling to hit.

	Hmn.  Switching dice would be an interesting cinematic tool,
but not very useful for those who don't want cinematic play.  In an
ideal system, players and GMs can pick and choose to create the
style they desire most.  (In the real world, though, this rarely
works out even half as nicely as it sounds...)
	[as a side note, people have been using percentile rolls
without 100-sided dice for years now...shh...don't tell 'em!]
[stuff deleted]

>Yes, well - I've been playing Rolemaster with a fairly experienced GM,
>and it did take some time. Especially in large encounters. Also, the
>system is not very easily expandable. If you want to implement a new
>genre, you will have to make a new table for every weapon you add. 

	If a game has as many tables as Rolemaster, I'd be very
upset at it.  *IF* the game relies heavily on tables, those tables
had better damn well be available in some pullout section, they
should be well-organized, easy to use, and better be worth it!
Don't ever make a table if you don't have to...
	(yes, I hate the, "We've got a table for it!" syndrome)

>	Simon> The great advantages in this system are its simplicity
>	Simon> and generality. We use the same mechanic for skills,
>	Simon> for determining the weather, for determining the number
>	Simon> of life points a character has in character generation
>	Simon> etc. It also allows a great deal of detail without
>	Simon> extra cost in terms of play. For example, in unarmed
>
>Well, I feel that it constricts the imagination of the GM. I think the
>roleplaying profits on letting the GM come up with effect, successes,
>failures etc. This is part of the fun!

	Not sure what you mean.  No dice rolling at all?  Or is it,
"roll the dice, but I'm the final arbiter of truth" kind of gaming?
Ehn.  Personally, as Loren said (right?), it would be nice for
diceless rules to be made available as well as random determination
of success.  (After all, not everyone wants diceless play...)
	Weather determination?  Uh...ok...right.  It better be a
damn good table.  ("Uh, yah, lesse...what's the weather like
today...roll 3d10...WHOA!  You're hit by a major blizzard!  In the
middle of summertime!  COOL!"  whimper)
	In the net.rpg thing there was mention of have a class
system (or a method, at least, to create characters under certain
occupations).  If you're designing a multi-genre game system, you
might want to think again, or at least leave options open for
non-class-generated characters.  Every genre would require its own
classes and I shudder to think of all the different types that each
genre would need.  This would only make people more dependent on
upcoming products.  So a "toolkit" method of creating templates/
whatever would be nice, as well as the basic point-allocated/
randomly generated character.  (To be truthful, I can't imagine
randomly generating a GURPS character...you'd need dozens of tables
to handle it well unless you just want to do a Roll 3d6 and Pray
system...)

>I prefer doing these things real-time, so you get a feeling of what
>you are doing. For the same reason I use computers for just about
>everything, except for roleplaying. It's no fun rolling the dice with
>a program. The papers, pens, calculations, dice rolls, etc. - it's
>part of the roleplaying. I may just be sentimental, but this is how I
>think it should be. 

	My parents would probably throw a fit if they saw me lugging
my computer to a friend's house.  (Good reason not to go home...ever
...heheheheh)  The main thing that stops me from using a computer
when I game is the fact that I don't have a mobile computer that I
can haul around with me.  An Apple //c would really be everything I
need, but I certainly don't own one.  (Dice rolling programs on
computers drive me crazy.  Hate 'em.)
	Using a computer for limited bookkeeping and note-taking
seems okay to me, but it also seems as if it could get in the way of
the game itself if used too much...

>No! You don`t lose on detail because the GM spends his time filling in
>the details. I think the GM should be used as a story teller, not as a
>bean counter or page flipper. 

	I agree.  And I don't see why one would need tons of tables
for skill resolution...

>I think a good GM is a lot more fine grained than your most detailed
>table. Agreed, your system makes for a much simpler system to play
>from the GM side, but is it worth it? I don't want a computer to
>create my character, even if it does it better, with more detail.

	Simpler, yes, controlled, no.  I don't want tables and
charts to run my game for me.  If I want the weather to be hot and
muggy or cold and crisp, that's up to me.  A good game would make a
note that the rules are optional and no one has to use them as
they're written, or use them at all.  My experimental system had a
note on taking out pieces of character creation that GMs didn't want
to deal with...
	Somehow I question the need for a Complex And Realistic
Weather Prediction RPG Device.  Perhaps good rules for the effects
of weather, but not reams of tables...I doubt they'd be very
realistic anyway...

>There is a human touch.

	Bzzzzat!  (couldn't resist)

>	Simon> For those interested we are planning to release Lore as
>	Simon> a shareware hypertext, complete with a world called
>	Simon> Imoso, the skill determination software etc in Feburary
>	Simon> 1993. If you would like to be notified at the time of
>	Simon> the release please send me your name and email address.
>
>I'm looking forward to it.
>
>-Magnus

	Sounds very interesting.  At this moment, I tend to be very
interested in other peoples' RPG products simply because I want to
see what other people are doing and the mechanics they are using.
GURPS is far from the end-all-be-all system and I'm interested in
seeing how other games are run.  (Not all of them are perfect, I'm
afraid, but new mechanics are always welcome.)

Newsgroups: rec.games.design