HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: The Dragon
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 22:13:10 GMT

In article <-1367161483snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au> 
gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
>In article <fTAjrAk@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us writes:
> > Couldn't agree more. War makes a very poor metaphor for life. As
> > Nietzsche put it, don't cast out the devil in you for fear of losing your
> > best part. Make love with your self, not war. Turn the energy around. Do
> > the right thing.
>Hm. Do I detect a trace of latent nobility here?

Descended from what? The dragon? I can only hope to emulate well.
Lucifer, prince of darkness, adversery of the prince of light? Certainly
we are all somewhere in between the opposites, but there is nothing of
me nor not-me that I fear, there is no evil in that sense, for me. There is no
good guy, no bad guy, just you and me, and we just disagree. I am a
child of the mother continent, but ... aren't we all?

>It was around the 12c that the Chinese Emperors found themselves
>actually descended from a dragon. Married into the family, so to
>speak.
>Is that what you mean by "Turning the energy around"? Incorporating
>the energy? This is an interesting thread.

Yes, more or less. Negative becomes positive, bad becomes good.
The West suffers from a misunderstanding of the
Persian light/dark duality on the part of the Christians. Nietzsche saw
this. Light/dark dualism is a tool to understand that which is
transcendent. The solution is not purely light nor purely dark, it is in
the union. Under Christian dogma, one aligns one's self with the prince
of light and fights and hates (Luke14:26) all that can be indentified as
not of the prince of light and thus of the prince of dark. This explains
the bulk of Christian-European history and should serve to illustrate
quite well why this is a misguided path. Dogma is good to learn from but
one must take care not to become dogmatic. The teacher may say, "Follow
me and be free", but dharma (doing the right thing) is not just a matter
of listening and obeying the teacher, one must participate, learn,
reflect into the reality of one's self and find one's path, the path of
the individual, dharma. The teacher can not teach without a student to
learn, that's learn not memorize and copy and become dogmatic. When the
student is ready, the teacher appears. The point being that the student
must be ready, ready to learn. It is not a matter of getting on the
winning team, it is a matter of dharma, doing the right thing.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: walter@watson.ibm.com (Walter Wilson)
Subject: Re: Libertarians, guns, etc. 
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 17:01:07 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

>> This aggregation a purely arbitrary human convention.
>>There is no underlying  "forest" reality.

This statement applies equally to any noun.
-- 

  Walter G. Wilson  (walter@watson.ibm.com)
  The opinions expressed here are my own.

  "My plans for the year all laid out...
   Ah... A dream in Springtime "
     -- Shodo (Go Seigen)
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Ritual Help.
Keywords: Help with Rituals
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 13:57:37 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.180716.68@panix.com> jimoates@panix.com (Jim Oates) writes:
>
>On another topic, how does music play a part in your rituals?
>I find that music can help me reach an altered state of 
>consiousness, under the proper circumstances.  Can music
>play a more vital role in all of this?
>
>If it does, or can, any sugguestions on what to listen to?

As a musician I can guarantee that music can be very powerful. All you have
to do is look at any rituals ever performed (for which we have adequate
documentation that is) throughout history to see that people have danced
and sung and drummed for eons.

As for what is best to listen to or use in a specific ritual, well, from
what I've read here by others (I haven't explored performing rituals myself
and so have no direct knowledge), the music you use will be very specific
to the type of ritual you're wanting to perform. Some rituals may not even
need music.

Play what you like (though personally I'd stay away from heavy metal, just
a personal bias). One of my Sword Brothers is a very spiritual dancer, and
often invokes Kali in her dance. I've had the pleasure of drumming for her
(though not in a ritual or circle), and it's truly amazing to watch her
trance out. You might try listening to Ofra Haza, or the somethingorother
Gypsy Kings (can't recal the full name of the band) that play that marvelous
song Bomboleo. Or you could pick up a tape of middle eastern drumming or
even Indian tabla drumming. I personally like Indian music for quiet and
meditation. But don't get the idea that this is the only kind of music that's
appropriate. I'm an Irish folk musician, and when I play at a seisun I can
get really lost in the tunes. I've watched an uilleann piper playing and
seen him making eye contact with me but not seeing me at all. Music is like
that.

Bb,

Corun


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |   How much comm could a comm port port
  Dark Horde by birth  |     if a comm port could port comm?
    Moritu by choice   |
From: aph016@cch.coventry.ac.uk (ozzy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Youthful experiences
Date: 9 Oct 92 13:48:18 GMT
Organization: none

In article <1133@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>
[stuff deleted]

>	Anyway, I have noticed that these experiences are common to many of us 
>and aside from a family traditionalist who was trained from birth, I have never 
>met a witch who was voted Ms. Congeniality / Mr. Personality in school. What 
>are your experiences?

I never really got alienated, I started travelling down the pagan path fairly
late (16 years old), and where we live people dont really care what you do.
I was a school prefect at the Roman Catholic (urr) school I went to. I think
it had something to do with the fact that I taught English to a Vietnamese
refugee and maths to a group of kids with special needs. If they had known I
was of Pagan persuasion.... maybe it might have made a difference, but what 
they didnt know didnt hurt them
however, my parents were strict Catholics. That made life difficult for a 
while, but I think they have just accepted the fact that I am not a christian
any more.

>			- Ashley
>
>		"Dreams are like water......colorless and dangerous"

ozzy

-- 
aph016@uk.ac.cov.cch
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: help from you guys
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:53:51 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


Janis Maria Cortese writes...

>I'm TA-ing an anthropology class this quarter, and one of the subjects
>we touch on, of course, is evolution.  I thought ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
>about it until I was approached after class by one of the students who
>asked me what the anthropologists thought about the Bible.  The phrasing
>he used made me think he was sympathetic to creationism.
> 
>I replied that the anthropologists considered that that theory was not
>well enough supported with fact.  He replied, "Yes, but some people
>believe it."

	When I went to HSU in 1985,w e had a similar problem, courtesy of the 
Campus Crusade for Christ ("Nazis for Christian Theocracy" might be a better 
name for these nuts!). They literally stopped my astronomy class dead with 
their protesting. Procede with extreme caution in this situation, you could end 
up with a bunch of Brownshirt-Christians boycotting your class if he is 
associated with the CCC.

	I suggest that you allow him to bring up the subject and simply put it 
back with a comment like "John Doe, don't you think that belongs in the 
religious studies class?" He will respond with the malarky patchwork 
pseudo-science that fundies use to back such beliefs. Stay on top of him 
mentally and dominant. Reply with "And I'm sure that Buddists and the Hindus 
and many other religions have a version of creation they'd like to tell too, 
but we really don't have time in this class to discuss religious creation 
mythology. What we will be discussing is....(today's lesson)". If he continues 
to protest, simply rise and say "Excuse me, I have a calss to teach. End of 
subject. Thank you." Maintaining dominance over the student in EXTREMELY 
important here. YOU are the teacher, HE is the taught. If it gets worse, have 
an administrator brought in and boot him out. 
	Make sure that if it does start to look nasty, the administration 
knows about it. My experience is the administration has dealt with this before 
and has little tollerence for the Brownshirt-Christian troublemakers. Just make 
sure your personal religion stays out of it or you'll give them a target.


	Hope it works out. Blessed Be!

			- Ashley
From: usr77@pil.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: The Serpent
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 03:11:14 PDT

Re: Re: The Serpent
By: thomas #0 @eagles.uucp (Thomas Hoffman) USEnet      
 
> you know the scary part is that all legends are supposed to be based on some
> sort of fact. so what happened to all the big snakes or lizards?
> Thomas of House Hoffman

Well, those great, manly heroes didn't get ALL of us...
 
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus! ====== 93 ======
(slogan contributed by Jessica McGeary) There are no fnords in this sig file.
Mail to me should be sent to:       |   autoreply to address I posted this
alizard@tweekco.uucp                |   from only if you want to wait a
boo!tweekco!alizard@PacBell.COM     |   solstice or two for my answer.
!uunet!pacbell!boo!tweekco!alizard  |                Kallisti!
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: updates please
Date: 7 Oct 92 18:55:16 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

jcl@sactoh0.sac.ca.us (John C. Laviolette) writes:
:  
:     Re: initiation into a tradition
:  
:     I noticed that you state that a Gardnerian (including yourself as an
: example) does not judge a self-initiated Wiccan as being "non-Wiccan," but
: only judges that person as not participating in the "power" of that
: initiatory lineage.
:     This makes me want to relate a recent experience, and ask a question:
:          On another net, I discovered a person  --  not a Gardnerian,
: apparently, but he never specified his tradition  --  who claimed quite
: emphatically that a person was not Wiccan unless initiated by a legitimate
: Elder of Wicca.  Furthermore, he believes that these "legitimate Elders"
: are (of course) themselves initiated by legitimate Elders, and so on back
: into history in a true apostolic succession.  He specifically rejects the
: idea that modern Wicca was a turn-of-the-century revival based on an
: amalgam of surviving folk customs.  He also rejects any Wiccan tradition
: which acknowledges that it is a "new" tradition, and in fact rejects all
: "artificial" or "modern" religions as vile.
:     He has also emphatically stated that no one who hasn't been initiated
: into a "legitimate" lineage has any right to talk about what Wicca is or
: is not.

Pagan fundamentalists are just as bad as any other fundamentalist. Nuff
said?

Bill
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Bewitched returns! (shudder)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:07:26 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.092355.10828@cs.nott.ac.uk> pcxsws@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (S.Ward-Smith) writes:
>Hmm, an interesting idea, have witches ever been portrayed
>well on TV?
>The only programmes beside Bewitched I can think of are
>Lizzy Dripping and Simon and the Witch, both kids
>comedy series. Hardly a positive image, but not
>incredibly offensive.
>Can anyone think of an adult series where witches have been portrayed
>as they truly are? I have seen the odd documentary but no drama.

I can vaguely recall an episode of Night Court where Harry got involved
with a Witch (don't know if she was Wiccan or not), and she was quite
nice.  I think he met her on a talk show.  Anyway, because of the
possible bad political repercussions of a city judge dating a Witch,
they had to break it off.  I remember him asking her something like,
"But we get along great, and I could fall in love with you.  Can't you
just give this up?"  She replied something like, "I can't stop being a
Witch; it's not what I do, it's what I *am*."  I recall it being quite
good.

Blessings,
Janis

P.S.:  Of course, contrast this with a past episode of Murder, She Wrote
where a pentacle was used to scare the kiddies and displayed with
appropriately dangerous music . . . Bleah.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.sex,alt.sex.bondage
From: spaceman@mwunix.mitre.org (Fletcher Williams)
Subject: Re: bad woad puns.
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:01:43 GMT


In article <Bw56Jx.BHr@access.digex.com>, you write:
|> In article <1992Oct14.180152.21740@radian.uucp> markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
|> >
|> >But if we keep this up, will the rest here start practicing Woadun on us?
|> >
|> >BB (while running for cover)
|> >	mark
|> 
|> Tell me something. Woadya do with a drunken sailor?
|> 
|> Bb,
|> 
|> Corun
|> 
|> -- 
|> ===========================================================================
|>     Corun MacAnndra    |   How much comm could a comm port port
|>   Dark Horde by birth  |     if a comm port could port comm?
|>     Moritu by choice   |


     Shave his head with a rusty razor!
     Shave his head with a rusty razor!
     Shave his head with a rusty razor!
     er.....then paint it blue?
 

* Fletcher, 
who spent much time and money drinking in the 'White Hart' this year. :)

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fletcher Williams -- spaceman@mitre.org  
###I don't speak for MITRE, nor they for me.###
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Ritual Help For a Sick Friend
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:40:45 GMT
Organization: Radian Cormp.

In article <1992Oct16.001344.993@wam.umd.edu> angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.) writes:
>In article <16881E7D6.PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu> PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu (Nancy Proctor) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct15.152553.7728@panix.com>
>>jimoates@panix.com (Jim Oates) writes:
>>
>>>                                   (deleted)
>>>Here is my request:  Is there a simple protection or ritual
>>>anyone can recommend concerning health and relief of pain?
>>>                                  (deleted)
>>>I really would like to help him, in a "spiritual" way, which
>>>is the only way left to help.
>>>
>>>Any comments or suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>>Blessings to all,
>>>Jim
>>>
>>>
>>Jim, have you tried anything like "laying on of hands?"  
>>I have used this technique several times with success.  However, I have not
>>worked with anyone suffering the intense pain that your friend is enduring.
>>
>Actually, it is technically illegal to do "laying on of hands" or
>even using mental imagery techniques on an individual in your presence
>unless you are licenced to do so.  If you want to be legally correct
>and each situation's needs are different.  Good luck, though.

Excuse me? In what legal jurisdiction is it illegal to do so? I could see
it if you claimed to be a psychic healer, and were charging for it, but
in any other case, esp. if you were a friend or relative, who was doing it
as "spiritual assistance", I can't see any reason for complaint (unless
you ritual was disruptive of the hospital (if that were a factor)), and it
would come under the Constitutional protection of freedom of religion.
>
>I have lost several loved ones to various types of cancer.
>But I do have a friend who completely recovered...  And he hasn't had
>a relapse in 5 years, so I don't think he's going to...  :)
>
I know the feeling - my dad died a few years ago, as did a good friend.

>Blessed be.
>Angela  (The Eclectic Witch)

	bb
	   mark
From: thomas@eagles.uucp (Thomas Hoffman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: "Are you ready for the Rapture?"
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 11:14:48 CDT
Organization: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru - Elder Hof

> 
> **********************************************************************
> * Pope Charles - Subgenius pope Of Houston & The Golden Triangle Area*
> *       Laughing at everything in the Universe, including the        *
> *       concept of laughing at everything in the Universe.           *
> *               rivdell.sccsi.com    Houston, Texas                  *
> **********************************************************************
love the radio show man.

well met and wassail
Thomas of House Hoffman
From: sylvan@tony.ksu.ksu.edu (Thad A Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Tarot and Stuff
Date: 8 Oct 1992 13:03:52 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tony.ksu.ksu.edu


Hi everyone!
	Ok, ok, I admit it I'm a lurker. (sigh) After
finally catching up on about 460 postings from this group,
(I started on Monday) I have decided to remedy my lurking
tendencies. 8) I know the tarot thread has been dead for a
couple of weeks but I have a comment and a question.
	My biggest problem with most of the decks is that
they don't portray the tool/element associations that I prefer.
(air-wand, fire-sword, water-cup, earth-pentacle) While I love
the Robin Wood artwork the associations are very clearly air-sword
wand-fire. (sigh) I have been using the Ellen Cannon-Reed Witches
Tarot for the past year and I LOVE this deck, but it would be
nice to have more options. 8)
	I have been interested in finding some rules for tarot
games for some time and haven't had much luck. It's pretty easy
to parody modern card games with the minors but the majors are
a different story. If anyone has some info or ideas about some
games I would love to hear about them. Thanx!

			Bright Blessings!

				Drey

 

-- 
~               Silverfoot come silenty...                 ~
~        Thad Williams- Kansas State University            ~  
~                sylvan@matt.ksu.ksu.edu                   ~
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Subject: Re: Binding or Protective Spells
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:59:21 GMT

In article <Pc90RB1w165w@alehaus.uucp> liam@alehaus.uucp (liam) writes:

>One 
>more point, Do You know that your workings will be successful, as faith 
>is one of the key factors in preforming any kind of magical working.

This hasn't been my experience.  Emotional involvement with the process
of the working is important, and belief can make this easier, but I've
gotten pretty clear results (sometimes to my dismay) from things I didn't
think would work.  A common saying among witches around here is--Be 
careful what you ask for, you might get it.

Knowing that you'll be successful is a neat feeling, but can easily
lead to self-deception.  My intuition occasionally states very strongly
that such-and-such is true, and I've learned to be careful when this
happens, because it's very emotionally compelling--and sometimes
completely wrong.

I think this may be what Starhawk was getting at with 'skeptics make the
best magicians'.

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
From: lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Picti (was: Re: Pagan Rock Artists...)
Date: 7 Oct 92 21:09:38 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <BvrFMM.n37@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack
Campin) writes: 

>ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley Sebastian Kaos) wrote:

>> Lisa Gerrard [of "Dead Can Dance"] is a lot like Elizabeth Frasier in that
>> she also will sing in other languages (Pictish, Irish Gaelic, Welsh and
>> some of her own inventing).

>If she sings in Pictish, they'll be rather unusual songs... only one Pictish
>word has been identified: "pit", meaning a parcel of land (occurs in some
>Scottish placenames).

As in Pitcorthie, Pitscotie, Pitcairnley and such Fife places?  So how
does it follow that Pit is pictish wheras (to take an example) Bal
(Ballingry, Balmalcolm, Baldinnie) is not. I would be interested in how
they worked this out.

All these place names are in Fife ... always said the fifers were a
funny lot .. I was married to one once! ;-)

>Incidentally, if anyone is curious about Pictish culture, go to see the
>cave drawings near East Wemyss on the coast of Fife and do it quick.  The
>sea is encroaching and they won't be there in a few years.  It would cost
>millions to save them and no organization responsible seems to have that
>sort of cash.

Could you post a bit more about these? Are they dated to the same
period as the symbol stones? Do they have the same style and  content
as the symbol stones?

Also, are they easy to get to or do you need caving gear?

--
Chris Lilley
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technical Author, ITTI Computer Graphics and Visualisation Training Project
Computer Graphics Unit, Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, UK
Internet:   lilley@cgu.mcc.ac.uk        Janet:   lilley@uk.ac.mcc.cgu
Voice:      +44 (0)61 275 6095          Fax:     +44 (0)61 275 6040
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From: simcock@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: I feel lousy about the shells now . . .
Date: 17 Oct 92 14:09:54 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <Bw4sv6.I26@world.std.com>, marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans) writes:
> Gee, Janis, that's tough. I could really see how much you loved your shells
> when you posted about them.
> 
> Don't give up on finding them, though. Last fall, I was on a *very* civilized
> (read:picked clean) beach in Maine. There was barely a whole shell of any
> size on this whole beach; in fact, there was barely a rock. It was the 
> barest beach I've ever seen. Anyway, I spent the night in a motel right on
> the beachfront; I've always loved the ocean, and I'd never been on the beach at
> night. So I went out later in the moonlight, and was strangely excited. I
> really felt power out there. And after I was out a while, totally steeped in
> it, I looked down and found a giant, white, empty clam shell, bigger than my
> hand. I picked it up gratefully; I keep what I'm sent, if I'm smart enough
> to notice it. Anyway, it's a treasured belonging now, of course.
> 
> May you find what you need, too.
> 
> Marty



                Just a thought, if you really like shells come to my country.

		New Zealand is real strong on beachs (And I really do mean
			BEACHES, not tourist spots. Good for forests too -
			well bush anyway.)

		
				"This message was brought to you buy the 
				New Zealand tourist board" - well me anyway

		
							-Matthew
From: ddawson@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Dick Dawson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The Serpent
Date: 15 Oct 92 04:03:02 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University

In article <Bvpw4w.EKK@inews.Intel.COM> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>Serpents and dragons shed their skin, ie crawl out of their old skin and
>into their new skin. That's a metaphor. What does it mean to you?


HERPETOLOGY lives.

Mad Dick