Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Wednesday, 30 Dec 1992 17:26:24 CST
From: <U19807@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
 <1992Dec27.235003.4413@rosevax.rosemount.com>
 <eharbin.725547983@convex.convex.com>
 <1992Dec28.192307.14583@walter.bellcore.com>
 <eharbin.725572840@convex.convex.com>

In article <eharbin.725572840@convex.convex.com>, eharbin@convex.com (Edward
Harbin) says:
>
>In <1992Dec28.192307.14583@walter.bellcore.com>
>kenl@origami.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Ken Lehner) writes:
>
>>In article <eharbin.725547983@convex.convex.com>, eharbin@convex.com (Edward
>Harbin) writes:
>>|>
>>|> On the other hand, in what non-Christian country would you choose to live?
>
>>I'd prefer the non-Christian United States, thank you.
>
>>|> It was in Christian societies that both modern science and
>
>>Have you heard of Arabic numbers?  Where exactly did geometry originate?
>
>There were of course interesting approaches to the sciences in Arab countries,
>classical Greece, India, and China. But the critical combination of
>mathematics and observation that we think of as modern science came to life
>in the cathedral schools of Paris, Bologna, and Cambridge.

....utilizing many techniques and theories from non-Christian societies. Is
there some sort of problem with the realization that scientific thought was
preserved by non-Christian scholars while Christian religious authorities
refused to allow their use (and in fact allowed their destruction as "pagan
artifacts",etc.) during the middle ages?

>>|> liberal democracy evolved. This was not accidental.
>
>>Are you saying that it was the Christianity of the society that somehow
>>enabled the evolution of modern science?  Certainly Galileo would have
>>some concern with this belief.  How is it that the Christian aspect(s) of
>
>Galileo was deeply Christian and would have no trouble with it at all,

I'm sure Galileo could answer for himself if he could,thank you...

>which is not to say he had no problems with the religious establishment
>of his day.

The "religious establishment" of his day (i.e.,the Roman Catholic church)
forced him to recant due to findings on his part which contradicted their
interpretation of the bible and its interpretation of how the universe
worked. So much for Christian thought's unwavering support of scientific
innovation....

>>society contribute to science?  Especially things that tend to throw doubt
>>on religious teaching (e.g., evolution, cosmology, dendrochronology).
>
>Most Christians have trouble with none of the above.

Oh,_please_! You've _never_ seen any attacks on evolutionary theory from
Christians? Just what in the hell was that din about Darwin's theories that
occurred back in the 19th century about? What about the fundamentalist Chris-
tian creationtist movement of recent years?

>What Christianity
>had to contribute was a metaphysics which accepted simultaneously immanence
>and transcendence: nature was a created good in which truths may be found
>which reflect a transcendent order. And some other wrinkles. But put the
>shoe on the other foot, - why _did_ Newton, Copernicus, Galileo, [long
>list follows] come from a Christian environment, if that environment were
>not in some way friendly to their development?

It _wasn't_ congenial to Galileo,Mr. Harbin. The primary reason why Newton was
left alone was because Copernicus' theories had already been accepted for the
most part. The Anglican church also had less civil prosecutory power (than the
Catholic church did in the Italian peninsula) even if they disagreed with cer-
tain Copernican tenets.

(I also vaguely recall that the Catholic church attempted to put the kibosh on
Copernicus' theories but couldn't due to his remoteness from the Papal States
and because the Polish crown decided not to fork him over to the Roman branch
of the Inquisition. Anybody who knows more about this is free to contradict me
if he/she has better documentation than I do.)

>>|> wherever you find human suffering, Christians are in the forefront with
>aid
>>|> aid and comfort. The Christian ethos has much of which to be proud.
>
>>So does the Jewish ethos, and the majority of religions.  It's the actions
>
>I have the highest regard for the cultural and ethical attainments of
>other religions.

You do?

Where is it evidenced in your postings,then? You seem to go on (and on,and on,
and on.....) about Christianity and little else.

      ** Chris Krolczyk,esq.  * DISCLAIMER: My opinions are in **
      ** Agnostic-at-Large    * no way endorsed by the Univer- **
      ** U19807@UICVM.BITNET  * sity of Illinois at Chicago.   **
      ** u19807@uicvm.uic.edu * So much for frivolous lawsuits.**
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic