From: sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic (was Re: Understanding...)
Date: 7 Oct 1992 12:57:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

In article <schoinas.718399218@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:
> > How about Enosis?  Isn't it based on Megali Idea? 
> 
> Strictly speaking you are not right. It would be more correct
> to say that they have common roots as they evolved in the greek 
> psyche, the notion of 'rhomaikon'. Hmm, I am afraid I cannot 
> avoid writing an article on the subject.

 I didn't have the intention of discussing "fine philosophical
details." :-). Actually, it would be valuable if you did so.
However, I don't know how much relevance does it have to the
current topic. Problem is whether 'Megali Idea'  is supported
today by some people, or else, does it have some effects in
today's Greek politics. In my opinion, Enosis was visualized
as part of a larger picture by many.

"Cyprus must become the springboard for the dreams of Alexander
 the Great in the Orient."

 George Papandreou, 1964

> >Also, what does 'pan-Hellenic' mean? 
> 
> pan == all

 Thanks. I always wondered what did this prefix mean? :-). Now,
what does this this 'all' include? Does it include the Greek
communities in Australia? US? Turkey? Cyprus? Albania? Does it
include or exclude the other minorities in Greece? I remember
one striking example, when Ahmet Zogu has chosen the title
"King of Albanians" instead of "King of Albania," it caused
a discomfort in x-YU. The difference is small, but very important.

I don't know, what exactly this 'pan-Hellenic' means, but I
am pretty sure, in Turkey, if a party choses a name which includes
'pan-Turkic' or its variants, then it will be called fascist
at least. And of course, it will mean varying degrees of
discomfort in some neighboring states (Greece, Russia, .....)
when such a party comes to power.
Tell me I am thinking wrong.

> >And why 'Hellen-ism' frequently means 'Greeks'?
> 
> Why not? I don't really understand what's your problem with these terms.

 The problem is with "-ism" part. Looking at the different answers
that I got, I am not sure if Greeks look at it in the same way.
"-ism" usually means an ideology which is a rather funny way to
name a people. Did you ever hear about the Turkism shops or
Japanism communities? :-). When people say "Hellenism in US"
it means "Greek communities in US." Can we say the same thing
for "Turkism in US." I understand a completely different thing.

 One other way to understand "Hellen-ism" is of course culturally.
(i.e. Greek culture)
In that case, it does not have much negative connotations. But, I
don't understand that way.

> >one wants to evaluate 'Turkish Claims', it should be seen in an equivalent
> >light with the 'Greek Claims.'
> 
> I don't think the case is similar. But I am willing to discuss it, if 
> you want. 

 Since Greece became independent, its expansion was always against the
then Ottoman state and not vice versa. The last Anatolian adventure is
included. Since then, we have exchanged our respective communuties,
(Muslim/Turk, Greek Orthodox/Greek differences are not much important
here.) and this was the end of the "territorial ambitions." (or seemed
to be so.) Now, today the claim is that Turkey has certain ambitions
toward the Aegean islands and perhaps even towards Greece. Now, if
you look at near history, it was mostly the other way around, Greece
was the main agressor. There is no similar case in history, suggesting
that Turkey has acted in accordance with such claims. In fact, the
Ottoman state was replaced by a new country with a completely different
structure and ideology. Now, the point is, one should give me a
reason why should I believe that Turkey has claims towards Greece, while
there is no similar example of such in history, and not the other
way around, while Greece usually expanded against Turkey.

 With respect to exchanged communities, both countries are similar.
There were Turkish communities in today's Greece (although I don't know
specifically for different regions) and there were Greeks in today's
Turkey. If one side feels that exchanges were the end of their
dreams, then it is more or less the same for the other side.

> 					 Bye,
> 					Yannis.

 Sadi Turgut
-- 
  The Greeks have survived in spite of all the world could
do against them, and all they could do against themselves.
              --Sir Winston Churchill