HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: swords
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 19:34:11 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Lin wrote:

> Most of us have been fortunate enough not to encounter *real* danger at
> events, but how do we *know* whether it doesn't occur or whether we just
> happened not to hear about it?  The Populace never sees the reports of the
> constabulary...  how could It know if where the problems might be?

An excellent point.  It has always bothered me that no reports from
security and the chirurgeons at events (and notably at Pennsic) are
published.  Of course the specific details of specific incidents should not
be available, but it seems common-sense to provide a general summary.
People attending an event ought to know what sort of problems they may
encounter, so that they can make an informed decision whether to attend and
what precautions to take.  For the people working security and first-aid,
it should be a matter of self-interest: If they tell people what to be
careful about, then they will have fewer problems to deal with.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: rhaven@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fealty, not oaths, to a kingdom
Summary: Fealty <> participation, and vice versa
Date: 5 Nov 92 07:17:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: cruzio.4596
Reply-To: rhaven@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us



There are a lot of terms here: member, subject, vassal, etc., and they
are all different.  As far as I know, it goes as follows:

The SCA, Inc. considers you a member of the branch (kingdom) that has
been assigned your zip code, postal code, or other geographical 
designation.

You are subject to the authority of the Crown and kingdom at who's events
you attend.

Your fealty is your own to give or not.  The only limitiation I can thing
think of is that a knight must swear fealty.  This can get very exciting
at times, but anyone else is a free agent, fealty-wise.

If people are getting uptight at Pensic, it is because they are
uptight people; there are no official rules on a Society-wide level.

Different kingdoms have different cutoms about this, and things can get
downright testy sometimes, but remember that the SCA is a
participatory group and if you're participating, you're more important
than anyone trying to Make Sure the Game Is Played Correctly.

Cheers
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Bjorn@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.ORG (Bjorn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: You know you're SCAdian.
Date: 10 Nov 92 04:43:04 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Alex_Hart@mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart) Alastair The Eastern Traveller said:

AH> ..when you show up to work with the most interesting bruises...
AH> This brings to mind what happened to one of the ladies in our barony

A few years ago, my squire sister Cunion got smacked by our knight along
the left jaw with a mace at a fighter practice.  Later, same practice, 
she got clocked by a Duke in the same spot.  She was having problems with 
her helm, and the padding bottomed out both times.  She got a really spec-
tacular bruise on her left jaw.  When she went to work on Monday, her boss 
took one look at her and said, "I don't care who he is, he's not worth it!"

Many years ago, Ianthe and Fernando had been practicing in their back-
yard.  When Ianthe went to her doctor for a routine checkup, he asked 
how she got all the bruises.  Without thinking she said, "My husband 
and I were fighting."  She had a hard time explaining the difference 
between _fighting_ and *fighting* to her doctor.

Bjorn Bjorklund, Storvik, Atlantia

 -- SPEED 1.00 [NR]: rich@aeneas.ims.disa.mil - but you can call me Bjorn.
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Thu,  5 Nov 1992 17:59:02 -0500 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Interkingdom Calibration

Greetings good gentles,

Prince Brian's comments that Meridies was considered to be one of the
lightest hitting kingdoms made me wonder...  Is there any sort of
ranking, subjective or objective, of the average level of calibration
in the Known World's various kingdoms and principalities?

Are Westerners supposed to hit like a ton of bricks?  Are the variations
within kingdoms greater than the variations between them?

My impression of the East was that the internal variation was greater
than the differences among the East, the Middle, and Atlantia.

What do others think?  Fighters with experience in multiple kingdoms,
how do you read things?  Can we divide kingdoms into HARD, MEDIUM, and
LIGHT calibration realms?  What social mechanisms are in place to get
people to 'lighten up' if need be?

I'll look forward to reading your responses!

My best -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..." 
From: Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Aten Crown
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 16:06:56

<jumping off a horse, drinking a flagon of <urk> water, and breathlessly saying, before jumping back to the saddle and vanishing in a cloud of dust>
  
My Lords and Ladies, I have the honour to report that the new Crown Prince of the Kingdom of Atenveldt is none other than Vis. Sir Elric ap Moray, called by some "the Awful," (and a Hordesman, to boot!)....his Queen will be his Lady, Larissa, late of Caid.
  
Gentles, THIS is gonna be INTERESTING!
  
<gallops off, giggling quietly....>

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: kleber@husc10.harvard.edu (Gwydden)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Children in the SCA
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:55:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov12.125527.17375
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Quoth mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman):

>         "Children's activities" should be viewed as an activity in the
> SCA like any other activity: Some people do it, some people don't, and the
> bureaucracy affords them the same support that it would provide to any
> other activity.

Oh, no, not that!!  A kingdom arts award for child care!  Society-wide
standards for competent, safe child-care practices...  so you have to
authorize in child-care...  and keep your membership current or invalidate
your card, which you must carry and present to any concerned parent on
request... Rialto threads about having a children's-activities list
in crown... aaahhh...

--Gwydden Lawen                           I don't have an overactive
  Borough of Duncharloch, Carolingia      imagination... I have an
--kleber@husc.harvard.edu                 underactive reality...  --EG
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Subject: Re: visible inauthenticity of archery
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 21:22:02 GMT


Perhaps I am mistaken, but I would prefer to see attempts at medieval
recreation rather than a recreation of an offspring of 1960's era sport.
Insisting on feather fletchings and wooden shafts does not make it medieval
in my eyes.

I have seen recently the efforts of a group from Lions Gate who have taken to
making their own bows. They spend about $20 on a block ash which is cut into 
four bow blanks. They shape the balnks without regard for the grain. Some bows
work better than others but to date, at least one of the blanks has turned out
to be a servicable bow. This does not see to make long bowss too expensive, nor
does it seems that the bowyers require years of experience (this group
started up in the last 12 months). The results may not be as perfect as a yew
longbow but they do not need to be. We do not need 120# bows as we rarely have
access to ranges where we can shoot more than 40yds.

Perhaps there is a way to cheaply make better approximations to period arrows.
Perhaps there are alternatives to the field points and crimp on shells
currently in use. The folk who have demonstrated that footed arrows with forged
points can be made have no done so cheaply enough for archers to want to use
the arrows for practice (even if the range masters would permit them to chew up
the targets.

I see no virtue in encouraging beginners to participate in and invest in a
blatantly non-period hobby under the auspices of the SCA. I see no virtue in
rewarding excellence in such a hobby. I am not even convinced that combat
archery is worth the effort. However, I will not walk up to an archer and
tell him to find a new hobby or a new venue. Instead, I will talk to autocrats
and suggest that they run purely medieval models for archery games. I would
like to hear a workable suggestion for penalizing modern equipment. Is a 
bonus 20 points for a period bow and another 2 points for every scoring period
arrow an acceptable handicapping system? Is there a handicapping system that 
does not 'suck rocks' as Graydon put it.

Is there a better way to encourage authenticity?

	Fiacha
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Guns vs swords ???
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:30:36 GMT

In article <MAILQUEUE-101.921111101152.384@trisse.hj.se> D91-NOA@trisse.hj.se writes:
>I've followed the debate on guns vs swords the latest issues of
>the SCA digest, ...
>Of course, in a desperate situation I
>would defend myself, but only if I was directly attacked. Some of the
>people that has written articles on the subject seems to ignore the
>risk of being killed. Even if the armed idiots usually don't use
>their guns, Murphy tells us that just the idiot you meet will use his.

If we (as a species) devoid of those who would risk their own death to
protect and preserve others--we sould have no wars.  Nor would we have
police....

>Here in the baronny of Nordmark (Sweden) we have never debated this
>matter. Is the situation really that bad in the States ??? If so, I
>do feel sorry for you.

It is not nearly so bad as these posting might lead one to suppose.
Most of the debate hovers at the 'what if' level.  Contingency
planning out loud by those who have thought about the problem.

In Sweden, have you never speculated on what you would have done--say
10 years ago--if the Red Army came swarming across northern Norway
towards you?  It didn't happen, and most folks probably assumed it
couldn't happen, but the remote possiblity always existed.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: polito@husc10.harvard.edu (Jessica Polito)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Strip the Willow
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:56:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov5.115616.17134
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <720883380snx@babel.DIALix.oz.au> del@babel.DIALix.oz.au (D Elson) writes:

>Um, excuse me, but when did the Renaissance start and the Middle Ages finish?
>One of my books says 1485, and La Spagna can be traced to 1450 ... splitting
>hairs, I know, but I am sure that we have others from Domenico that can
>be called "medieval" rather than "renaissance".
>

The problem here is that "The Renaissance" really didn't start in the same
place in all of Europe.  1485 might make some sense as a (somewhat late)
date for the starting of the Renaissace in, say, England, but historians
generally seem to agree that, in Italy, the Renaissance was well under way
by the middle of the 14th century.  Domenico was an italian dance master
(whose handwriting, by the way, varied from legible to rather atrocious --
not everyone in period who was literate had stunningly beautiful
handwriting!), writing at a time when the Italian renaissance was
flowering, so it would be hard indeed to call his dances "medieval,"
in any meaningful way.

Speaking of dancing, is there anyone out there interested in dancing who
speaks Dutch? A friend found a facsimile copy of a Dutch dance manual from
1626 in her university library.  Most of the sources anyone in the SCA is
using are English, French, or Italian, so it would be really interesting to
see what the Dutch were doing.

--Fiammetta Adalieta


-- 
Humans...  God's attempt to pass the Turing test.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)
Subject: Re: The Society's Paradox
Organization: Shire of Glaedenfeld
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:19:58 GMT

Robyyan Torr d'Elandris writeth:
> deal with the paradox, as I see it we have several choices:
> 1.  Do nothing.  We will continue to have internal conflict over what 
> 2.  Decide we're a fantasy organization.  This will resolve all the 
> 3.  Decide we really are what we say we are.  Enforce rules about garb 
> I don't actually like any of these possibilities.  Is there anything 
> else?

4.  Decide our purpose is to interest people in history, and to keep
them interested.

We are already finding people who didn't like history and drawing them
into the SCA, where they find that some of it is interesting.

The weak point is that they are learning an SCA version of history,
which verges on the revisionist, and even that is heavily diluted by so
many SCA-specific tidbits, that they really don't learn as much as they
might.  Finally, after a while, when they become the more senior half
of the populace, they are consulted as experts by the newbies, and they
start to feel that further research is rarely needed.

Obviously, this does not happen to everybody.  Still, I think that if
we define ourselves, (4) is the best of the options suggested so far,
and this is the point we need to address.
--
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Revoked Patent
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:38:29 GMT

Brandr Wyborn wrote that the Patent was revoked because it violated
the law of the Kingdom of Meridies.  Not so, I'm afraid.  I was at
the Board Meeting, and the revokation was because Corpora was
violated, not the laws.  The laws could easily been modified by the
same sort of act that gave the Patent.  But, even if the attempt to
make that change had been done (and I do not believe it was) it would
have violated the Governing Documents of the Society.

  Since that time, Kingdom law has been changed to allow someone holding a
  County or Duchy to be recieve a POA and not become a peer.  It will not effect
  their precedence since they must be a royal peer to recieve it.  Whether or not
  Her Excellency holds the POA now I do not know.

You misunderstand.  The mere receipt of a Patent makes one a Peer, and
a Patent may not be awarded twice, neither can it be awarded alone.  That
was the whole idea behind the Board decision.

Would you happen to be able to post the relevant sections of Meridian
Law?  I, for one, would love to see them.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: fealty and peers
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1992 20:50:12 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  

In the midst of a very well-reasoned posting on fealty in the SCA, Graydon
wrote: 

> Relax the Corpora ban on homage to those other than the King...

What ban?  I think you may be projecting Midrealm law into Corpora.
Corpora mentions fealty in two regards: knights must swear fealty to the
Crown when they accept their rank, and other peers may swear fealty, but
are not required to do so.  

Aside: Am I imagining things, or is there a consistent pattern of
Midrealmers assuming that the evils foisted on them by their own laws
originate from the corporation?

> (oh - it should be 'patent of arms, award of crest, grant of supporters'
> rather than the present AoA, Grant, Patent structure. (same arms, can
> only be granted *once*))

I _believe_ that supporters and crests were sometimes granted in late
period England, but I do not believe that it was the rule, or that such
grants were considered to confer additional rank as they are today.
Through most of the medieval armorial period, crests and supporters were
unregulated.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: del@babel.DIALix.oz.au (D Elson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Strip the Willow 
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 13:23:00 GMT
Organization: 


In article <BRANDON.92Nov2135148@gauss.math.brown.edu> brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu writes:

  > Well, here's comment number one (start now and avoid the rush!):
  > 
  >         You have never seen a medieval dance.  
  > 
  > Unless I am grossly wrong, we don't have have any.  All of our historically
  > attested dances come from the Renaissance.  The fact that you don't know
  > this is not, of course, your fault, and I don't want anyone to think that
  > I'm saying it is.  If anything, it's the fault of the dance mavens of the
  > SCA (in which I think I've just included myself) for not getting the word
  > out.  But the word is clearly not out.

Um, excuse me, but when did the Renaissance start and the Middle Ages finish?
One of my books says 1485, and La Spagna can be traced to 1450 ... splitting
hairs, I know, but I am sure that we have others from Domenico that can
be called "medieval" rather than "renaissance".

Del
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
D Elson                            |  del@DIALix.oz.au del@adied.oz.au
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Patent revokation.
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Distribution: na, world
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:49:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.193323.27920@progress.com>, schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>I wrote:
>                                                             (I should
>   point out in this context that I'm of the rather small camp that feels
>   that Kings are obligated to listen tothe counsel from his Peers--but
>   that doesn't require him to *follow* their advice...)
> 
> Could it be?  Is Hal Ravn (gasp) a closet Easterner? (crowd begins to
> grumble).  (:-) of course.  

:-) understood....

Actually, I am unregenerate old Westerner--from the land where Kingdom
Law starts (Article I, Section 1) "The Word of the Crown is Law."

(What's this required Curia stuff, anyway?  :-) )

> East Kingdom Law does require that a gentle
> have been polled for in the last year, once.  It doesn't say that the
> gentle had to be polled for that award, or anything about the King
> or Queen even reading the results...  And you think *your* king's word
> is law.  (There was a recent Pelican given before the deadline for
> polling letters to be returned had passed, I hear)

Our practice is to convene a meeting of the order--all the ones on
site and willing to show up--with meetings starting as early as 8 am
on a Sunday morning....  If the order (or the Crown) wants to bring up
somebody new and propose elevating 'on the spot'...  Well...  It's
been done....  Usually damn near by acclamation....

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Constabulary and Weapons
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 17:34:45 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Nov4.165937.2101@u.washington.edu> lcatlett@carson.u.washington.edu (Lynn Catlett) writes:
>In article <9211031351.aa02770@mc.lcs.mit.edu> lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi) writes:
>>against potentially armed foes. (I have never had to face down
>>a gun, but I have faced/fought opponents who could have been
>
>Having been held at the point of a lamentable number
>of weapons during my association with the Former Mr.
>Catlett (a freelance pharmeceuticals salesman), my 
>advice on the best way to deal with people holding
>projectile weapons is:  
>
>a) freeze.  breathe through your pores.  do exactly
>   what the potentially lethal (usually deeply
>   freaked and often naturally or chemically unbalanced) 
>   person says.  
>
>b) watch your chance and run/hide/transport outta there.
>
>c) call the gendarmes;  let THEM do the intervention:
>   they're trained and equipped

This is excellent advice for any individual threatened, under
most circumstances. It is, IMHO, *not* appropriate action
for someone charged with the protection of others.

Perhaps the marshalate is an apt analogy. 

One of the most important *duties* of a marshal is,
to catch, with their own frail flesh, a blow which
would have landed on a spectator.

I have seen marshals, unarmoured, do this. They were
injured, in one case fairly seriously. In worst case,
they might have died. But it's their duty to protect,
and their own safety, in this situation, is simply
secondary.

I hold that the constabulary is in a similar position.

The safty and comfort of the constable is secondary 
to our duty to protect SCA members. That means even if
we'd rather be filking at the bardic, we are on patrol.

It means we have to prevent a drunken knight from
getting into his car...Even if we know he will revenge
this some day;-)

It means we have to turn away an unaccompanied minor,
and suffer all kinds of verbal abuse.

It means, essentially, that our job requires us to do things
we hate, find uncomfortable, or maybe even *dangerous* if
the safety and security of SCAdians is at issue.

What I hope to do is work towards a set of sound, efficient
and useful plans which allow constables to do their duty
effectively, and without placing themselves in danger.

People pointing guns was an extreme example, but let me
propose another: If a child is being stung by wasps,
after knocking over a nest, it's my duty as a constable
to go in there, get stung myself, to get the kid out.

Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde, An Tir
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca