From: leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y)
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 15:11:14 GMT

In article <2292@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:

  [A lot of stuff deleted]

 > >What? Huh? You *are* talking about GURPS?
 > 
 > 	Sure am.
 > 
 >  Let's see: casting a
 > >fireball requires a spell roll, fatigue cost & concentration time,
 > >then you have to aim and fire the attack;
 > 
 > 	"Roll 3d6. Compare to skill. You want low."
 > 
 >  firing a gun expends
 > >bullets, not fatigue, and requires an external weapon, not an
 > >internal power, and requires a Guns skill roll, not rolls against
 > >a spell called Fireball and the Fireball Throwing skills.
 > 
 > 	"Roll 3d6. Compare to skill. You want low."
 > 
 >  Where
 > >all of the skills above are of different difficulties and are
 > >based on different attributes. Where the damage results are
 > >radically different. Where the requirements to the attacking
 > >character are completely different.
 > 
 > 	All of the above are true in ANY game -- that is, that the 
 > situation, from the character's point of view, is different. Most
 > games also have the different skill or knowledge requirements.
 > Nothing different about GURPS here.
 > 
 >  Controlling a mind? That's
 > >a spell or a psi power - each has its *own* mechanics, which
 > >differ from those for guns and Fireballs as well as each other.
 > 
 > 	"Roll 3d6. Compare to skill. You want low."
 > 
 > >Flying a ship requires Piloting rolls -- different again.
 > 
 > 	"Roll 3d6. Compare to skill. You want low."
 > 
 > >     All of these have different and appropriate mechanics, and
 > >yet the system can handle them all *well*. Where's the problem?
 > 
 > 	Huh? Somehow I fail to see what different MECHANICS come
 > in there. All skills are done precisely the same way. Obviously you
 > tag different NAMES onto them, but they are all based on the same
 > dice, distributed the same way, and .... well, flavorless. 
 >        Rolemaster has tons of skills also, but the mechanics of each
 > one, despite being rolled on the same dice (for most, anyway),

	"Roll d100.  Add skill bonus and whatever else.  You want high.  Oh yeah,
and look up the result on a chart somewhere...."

	(Not necessarily putting down Rolemaster, which is a halfway decent
system if not better.)

 > vary rather impressively because of the interaction of multiple parts
 > of the character. GURPS varies the cost of the skills in essentially
 > one way: what your stat is (and there ain't many stats to vary). RM
 > (not my favorite system, but good for comparison here) varies the cost
 > by category of skill, other related skills, stats, and so on.
 >

	GURPS also varies the cost of the skills by the degree of difficulty in 
learning the skill.  Further, most skills can default to one or more related
skills, and/or to one or more stats (not necessarily the same stat as the one
it is based on if bought in the standard way), and it is possible to buy up
skills from the default instead of the standard base stat.

 > >let's stick to averages, OK? GURPS IQ is general knowledge and
 > >experience, as well as "intelligence": so someone with 18 IQ has
 > >probably spent 90% of their life in school, and *will* have a great
 > >deal of knowledge.
 > 
 > 	Good Gog, it's worse than I thought! I thought GURPS was just
 > cramming all the potential intelligence into one undifferentiated 
 > stat. It crams all the WORK in there, too? Gag me with a phaser.
 > 

	Sure, if you insist, I could. . . if you'll only come over here - and
bring your own phaser, 'cause I don't have one.

	Granted, GURPS has its faults.  Like any other system, it can be abused.
There is no cure for this except playing with the right kind of people - as with
any other system.  A munchkin is a munchkin no matter what system is used.
Another flaw I'll agree to is the huge benefits from having a high IQ stat.  
In my own games, I solve much of this problem by divorcing Will and Sense rolls
entirely from IQ - I simply let the players buy Strong or Weak Will, as well as
Acute senses (or less acute senses) from a base of 10.  Works fine for me.

	[Much more stuff deleted] 

 > 
 > 
 > 					Sea Wasp

	It's been pointed out repeatedly that GURPS is less well suited to high
levels of power than it is to more low-powered gaming.  This may be true; I've 
never really tried running GURPS at very high levels of power and I don't really
want to.  My tastes run more toward medium-to-low power--enough PC and NPC power
to make things interesting, suspenseful, and (dare I say it? Yes, I dare) even
a wee bit "heroic"; but nowhere near superhero level.  I'm not claiming that it
is a perfect system, but then again, I tend to use systems (any systems) as 
guidelines only, as I believe everyone should.  GURPS is my preferred system
because it is fairly easy to use as much of it as I wish at any time, while 
ignoring what I want to ignore; I also think it is good at combining realism
with playability (knowing, as I write these words, that I run the risk of 
resurrecting yet another ancient flamewar. . . .)  Lastly, it is well supported
with genrebooks, sourcebooks, and worldbooks (some of which are about average,
some of which aren't too good, and some of which are very good indeed); and
it is fairly easy to convert stuff from other games to use with GURPS.  I have,
for instance, used GURPS to run games in the Shadowrun world (this was before
SR II came out--imagine how much more lethal standard SR scenarioes became when
a half-way realistic combat system was used. . . .)

	Anyway, Sea Wasp, it seems to me that you don't have any clear reason to
be as negative about GURPS as you indisputably are.  Care to continue the dis-
cussion in a semi-civilized manner?  Or, if you want a Flamewar from Hell (tm),
I guess I could accommodate that as well, though it would be less pleasant for
most of those involved.  

-Leif Kj|nn|y
Norwegian Institute of Technology
(for which I certainly do not speak)

leifmk@lise.unit.no