HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 30 Dec 1992 03:09 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1992Dec30.004417.16985@wam.umd.edu>, bast@wam.umd.edu (Jaguar) writes...
> 
>Tammy, I know an Apple/Orange.
>She is a Pagan Christian.
>That is how she describes herself.
>She feels that christianity is unbalanced, in that it does not recognize the
>feminine and the forces of nature very well.
>She feels that christianity needs to have an acceptance of, and blending with
>the forces of nature.
>The earth honoring traditions are missing.
>She is pagan in that she follows the wheel of the year, and its celebrations.
>She honors the goddes.
>However, she is christian as well, and grew up catholic.
>She places Jesus as the consort of the goddess.
>She sees noconflict in this.
>"in wicca you place what you believe in in the place of god and goddess."
>she had told me.
>To her, jesus is another mainifestation of the male aspect of god.
>To me, this qualifies as a pagan/christian.
> 
>Jaguar
>rolling out the apple/pear/oranges....
>(better get her out of the genetucs lab!)


That's perfectly fine and I see nothing wrong in it.  If she wants to call
herself a pagan/christian thats fine.  However, don't you see that what she
is doing is far more pagan than christian?  A pagan can accept this, but a
christian never could...not by the definitions of the religion.

I personally think that Jesus taught a lot of things to his apostles that
he didn't teach to the rest of the masses.  Remember that contemporary
Xtianity is founded on the teachings of Paul...who was never directly
taught by the man called Jesus.  How easy it would be to lose teachings
that way.  

Probably what your friend is reaching for is the original teachings.  And
she is using the pagan way to do it.  However, since Xtianity is associated
with the contemporary version of the church I really don't think she could
be considered a Xtian.

However, how she wishes to refer to herself is up to her.  It is not my
place to agree or disagree with it.

Tammy

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: PAGAN, was You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 21:16:18 GMT

lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:

>A "witch" was (as I understand it, please correct if wrong) a member of the
>wiccan.  Members of the wiccan studied wicca.  Wicca means something like
>"ways of the wise ones" or "ways of the old ones".  Therefore the original
>meaning of the word witch is "practitioner of the old ways" or something like
>that.  I really wouldn't call that devil worshipping.

Tammy, what sources are you using for this?  This is inconsitent with what I've
seen.  I've never heard of anything called "the wiccan".  According to the 
sources I've seen (including the OED), the words wicca/wicce refered to 
practioners of folk-magic--the etymology connecting witch to wise has been
discredited by further research.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Subject: couple bible verses 
Date: 20 Dec 92 05:09:30 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

Eccclesiastes 4:9-11
(philosophy, on partnership (rather applicable, considering
Bill and Hillary))

 Two are better than one because they have a good return
 for their labor.  For if either of them falls, the one 
 will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls
 when there is not another to lift him up. Furthermore,
 if two lie down together they keep warm, but how can one
 be warm alone?

Song of Solomon 8:7
(love poem)

 Many waters cannot quench love,
 Nor will rivers overflow it

1 Corinthians 7:1-2, 32-34 
(according to tradition, written by a bachelor)
 
 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However...
 I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for
 them to remain even as I....I want you to be free from concern.
 ...one who is married is concerned about the things of the 
 world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided.
 ...this I say for your own benefit.

-jen
 Ecc 4:11 is particularily fun to bring up to a sex-is-bad christian ;)
 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 20:27:45 GMT

lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:

>Having someone as your god and following a set of rules or dogma are two
>different things.  For most the two are tied together.  However, because
>of the nature of paganism, it is possible to see the god or goddess in any
>archetype.  For this reason a person could be pagan and worship Jesus as
>a god.  But the "rules" of his/her belief are pagan, not christian.  A
>person who FOLLOWS the religion of CHRISTIANITY would not be able to to
>accept any other than "god" (i.e. the trinity and thus Jesus) as god.

>A person has every right to refer to themselves how they wish.  However to
>say someone is a Pagan Christian is like saying something is an Apple Orange.

ARgh, well, I guess I don't exist. :(

You have a rather limited definition of Christianity.  There are several 
Christian denominations which do not require that people believe in the Trinity.
There are several which do not require that people believe that Jesus was God.
There are even several which do not require one to take any of this stuff 
literally.  I am a Witch.  I am also a Christian.  For me, Jesus was an
important teacher, who expressed the Mystery which I call Christhood.  However,
all people, as children of the Divine, can express Christhood.  The Christ is
not an entity, per se, but a possibility of awareness.  For me, the Christ is
the dying/resurrected God I call on when I feel in need of personal 
ressurection.  This does not conflict with my being a Witch.  Granted, there
are resurrection metaphors in Wicca as well as Christianity, but it is the
Christian one which I connect to when I feel most lost.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Slaves to Jesus was Defining the kingdom of God
Date: 21 Dec 92 12:07:47 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
> press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson) writes:

>>Well, I should have clarified earlier that he did most assuredly
>>experience the _full_ weight of humanity on the cross. Some would
>>say for _all_ who ever lived and will live. that's quite a weight.
>>Then he said, follow me for my yoke is easy to bear.

>It's ridiculous for a bank manager to take _two_ months off work to experience
>unemployment.

Hmm. Reminds me of these Tory MPs who spend a few hours (or even, shock 
horror, a whole night) outdoors with the homeless, then go home the
next morning, shower, have breakfast, and then tell their friends 
through mouthfuls of canape that night at a cocktail party about how 
they 'understand' the plight of the homeless.

P.
-- 
moorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive  P a u l   M o l o n e y    "I'm pretty witty and you're itty bitty    pe
james  Trinity College, Dublin     And isn't it a pity the city can't see?   vr
brownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: storrs@eos.ncsu.edu (JERRY STORRS)
Subject: Merry CHRISTmas to everyone,   I love all of you 
Originator: storrs@c20002-121rd.che.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: storrs@eos.ncsu.edu (JERRY STORRS)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:55:07 GMT


I would like to thank all of you who post here.  The one thing this group does
for me is strengthen and broaden my faith with every posting I read.

I thank those of you who are with me on the walk with Christ.  The outward 
defense of the Word some of you use gives me new understanding and, at times, 
has shown me ways to not argue with those who have chosen to only antagonize.
The 'learned' methods others use have directed me towards new understandings.
The extremely basic ways still others use remind me of the simplicity that 
all it takes is faith.

I thank those of you who are struggling to find the path that the Lord has lit 
for you. The task is only as difficult as you wish it to be.  The more logic 
and reasoning you apply to finding that path, the more fog you put on the 
meadow.  Only through faith can you clear that fog and make the Way clear. I 
can not explain how to find the Lord. I can only call to you, helping you to
find the path in your own way. The best advice I can think to give is: 
	In your times of unsuredness, try calling or reaching out.  
	There will always be a voice calling back and a hand to 
	help you onto the walk.

I thank those of you who, in your disbelief, (unwittingly) do the task that God 
has given you by reaffirming my footing on the path. I'm sure that you believe
that you have full control of your destiny and that you do what you do because
you want to.  I understand your attitude, flawed as I believe it may be, mainly
because I know I can only let the Lord shine his light through me to you. I
discovered long ago that if people want to wear dark glasses, then it is their
choice to not see the Son. I only hope that one day the light will be so 
brilliant that even you will find the path and discover that the dark glasses
were not necessary.

I thank and pray for all of you, even though there are those who don't "want"
it.  Happy Holy-days to all of you.

		May the Lord Bless you and Keep you,   JLS

(previous postings, although not as windy, seem to have been lost)

(HOOOOOOO-BOOOYYYYY !!!!!  I can feel the 'flames' already..YEEE-HAWW!)

-- 

===============================================================================
Jerry L. Storrs, System/Network Manager || "... I bring you good news of great
Dept of Chemical Engineering, NCSU      || joy that will be for all the people.
   storrs@che.ncsu.edu (preferred)      || Today in the town of David a Savior
   storrs@eos.ncsu.edu                  || has been born to you; he is Christ.
                                        || the Lord."         
                          <><           ||                Luke 2:..10-11
===============================================================================
Any statement made is the explicit belief of the writer and not the employer.
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:24509 rec.arts.books:23130
From: kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: PIPI
Date: 23 Dec 92 15:54:02 GMT
Organization: nope

In article <NICHAEL.92Dec23070454@kariba.bbn.com> ncramer@bbn.com writes:
...
>
>But in any case, the oringinal abbreviation is not "an obscure Greek
>message".  Abbreviations of this form --the so-called _nomina sacra_
>which were formed by combining the initial letter(s) of a name with
>the final (i.e. inflection-sensitive) letter-- were used extensively
>throughout the history of the Greek text of the New Testament.  They
>were especially common in the days before printing, when the number of
>(handwritten) letters was at a premium.

It goes back even farther than that, to those alphabets that were
carved in stone or pressed in clay.  Some of those do not
allocate separate letters to vowel sounds, rather representing
them with diacritical marks, which are often omitted, and
sometimes confused with cantelation marks.

And even then, it was convenient to leave out intermediate
letters;  in Hebrew texts, often then name of God which is not
spoken is represented by a minimalist two yods.


This practice of elision has survived in some places, in which lists of
names are indexed by removing the vowels, and resolving any
resulting collisions locally.

-- 
David Kassover             "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover	          sharp weapons and dull judges."
kassover@aule-tek.com                   F. Collins
kassover@ra.crd.ge.com
From: rob@excalibur.gatech.edu (Rob Lester)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Summary, Trinity vs LDS View fo the Godhead
Date: 24 Dec 92 14:52:10 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <0cLv02wc30Jx01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:

>Women being priest can hardly be considered and "essential". I am talking
>about who God is, "lds=a big man; 

Actually it should be 
 "lds= a perfect eternal being with a perfect physical body"
 (Of course this is still only a superficial description)
 (As to how "big" He is, I couldn't say )           

>And who Jesus is:

> (lds=brother of Lucifer; Christiandom=Creator of ALL things).  

Actually LDS doctrine agrees with what you attribute to Christendom.
We believe that Christ was the Creator (as well as a spirit brother
of Lucifer, as were we all to be complete. If you study the LDS doctrine
on the pre-existence this becomes much clearer.)  

Yet another example of Tony distorting LDS teachings to put the worst
possible face on them. If you are going to bring these things up in 
discussion at least get them right.

>>[Gordon Banks]
>>The Mormon heresy is rather than we are *not* created
>>beings.  Or in the words of Joseph Smith, we are co-eternal with God.
>>(Besides, the Mormons do believe that Jesus is the great I AM).

>Well, which is it, are you "co-eternal with God"?  Have you existed
>as long as God has?  Or were you created as Spirit children?
>You teach both!  How can you teach two contridicting things?  Which is it?
>Are you co-eternal, or were you created as spirit children?

The problem is that you equate "created" with "becoming Spirit children".
Gordon was much closer . We are co-eternal. Co-eternal does not mean equal.
Nor does it say anything about the great difference between us and God
our Father.

The contradiction is only in your mind.

Rob


#################################   rob@excalibur.gatech.edu 
# Rob Lester                    #   
#                               #   
#################################   
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: PAGAN, was You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 20:16:22 GMT

arromdee@godel.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
: 
: No, because Jews called themselves Jews first, and it's those who define Jew
: as "baby-killer" who are redefining words.  If _you're_ the one who's redefining
: the words, you shouldn't then complain that the old definitions harm you.  Why,
: of all the words possible, did you pick one which means "Satan worshipper" to
: Christians?  And then _complain_ about the meaning?  Of course it means that--

But, pagan does not mean "satan worshipper" to most Christians. It does to
many - so what?  If pagans wanted to use a word with such a connotation, they
would use "Satanist". Direct and simple - even narrow-minded fundamentalists
would understand the term.

: you knew, when you picked the word, that it already meant something.

Certainly, it did. Pagan meant "of the country". It was some of the repressive
sects of Christianity who have attempted to redefine the term.

Bill
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:24999 alt.pagan:14858
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 3 Jan 93 16:51:50 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>As far as this "I am the way . . . " passage in the Bible is concerned,
>if Elaine Pagels is to be believed, it is quite hotly contested and
>supposedly was added by an anonymous someone after the fact.

Is there another source besides Pagels?  I'd be interested in seeing
this...

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Date: Thursday, 31 December 1992 08:30:13 MST
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
Subject: Re: did I like miss your point?
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Distribution: world

In <C041Lq.I1o.1@cs.cmu.edu>, drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)  wrote:
# 
# >as Peter Hampe recently pointed out, the whole
# >notion of having a bible in the vernacular is
# >in itself a very MODERN HERETICAL NOTION foiseted
# >by Factions of the ModernSeXularHumanism upon
# >the True Believers.
# >
# >Or did you miss the whole section in your shool
# >days about the middle ages, not to mention, say
# >history from 30AD to 1560AD?
# 
# Huh?  Oh, you must be talking about the churches of the West.  The
# Eastern Orthodox Church has always provided a translation of the
# Bible in the vernacular to her people.  As early as the 4th
# century, St John Chrysostom was encouraging people to spend their
# time in Bible reading and study -- even the laity.  The notion
# of the Bible being only in Latin and forbidden to the common man
# was a mistaken Roman teaching.

  This whole discussion is hilarious, when you consider that the
  Bible the Church was defending against the masses derived from
  the Septuagint, which was apparently the only version known to
  the authors of the Church's scriptures!

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: Kent's got a hammer :)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 01:03:32 GMT
Organization: (Evil Eye Creature from Mars, Inc.)
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <mtf.725376642@vipunen.hut.fi>, mtf@vipunen.hut.fi (dalens ande)
wrote:
> In <ksand-241292124619@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik ) writes:
> >I enjoy art, but in the case of music and art the artists are not
> >on a holy mission to convert people to one cause -- instead they want
> >people to react and get impressions. If religions would act the same
> >way I would not mind about the doctrines. However immediately when
> >a doctrine states that this is universally true, then it's the
> >responsibility of the doctrine to justify itself.
> 
> >If we compare religion with impressionism, the painters wanted us
> >to get impressions based on their views, but it was not a 'buy this
> >or your are damned' situation.
> 
>  You're confusing "religion" with christianity. Not all religions go
> around converting people. There is, for example, the large group of
> "ethnic" religions (to which one can include most of the modern neo-
> pagan religions as well) 

I agree, I should have used the word Christianity instead of religion,
where we indeed have religions with a lesser amount of evangelizing
than mainstream Christianity. And yes, we have religions that just 
wants us to open our eyes to whatever 'world view' we should see.

Speaking about realities and self-realization, I'm reading the 
third part of David Gerrold's Chtorr series, yes it's SF, and 
also very didactic (deliberately), and the sub-plot deals with
religious cults and views that change the personal being concerning
realization of the world. My own humble :-) opinion is more and more
biased towards a philosophy where human beings should have the 
dignity and priviledge to form their own ideas independently of
culture, social pressure or any other outside force. In this sense
even non-preaching religions have problems due to the doctrine
driven teachings. The compromise would be a 'smorgasboard' style
of pick-and-choose personal views, however even this liberal idea
has its problems.

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.		
"Don't just do something!  Stand there!"  -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.pagan
From: holzman@d0gslb.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: God etc
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:04:30 GMT
X-Posted-From: d0gslb.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec22.215451.2019@tc.fluke.COM>, emery@tc.fluke.COM 
(John Emery) writes:

> The observed fact that humankind has always searched for something 
> outside of himself points to the conclusion that we are incomplete in
> ourselves.  

From the Charge of the Goddess:

"And know that all your seeking will avail you not if you do not know the
mystery: That if you do not find what you seek within, you will surely not find
it without.  For I have been with you since the beginning, and I am thatwhich
is attained at the end of desire."

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.