From: torresce@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Alex "Mystic" Soto)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG (critiques) vs Dr. Who
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 14:17:56 GMT

markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU writes:

>Perhaps the fact that I wasn't fifteen years old when I first saw Fenric 
>enabled me to have no difficulty with the plot. I have also had no 
>difficulty following the plot of many more complex stories than the curse
>of Fenric. It simply requires a little bit of thought. The point I make
>is that if you do not understand the plot of something, and others do,
>then the fault lies with you. The story may be crap, but the task of
>following it is up to the viewer. If you can't manage this where others
>can, well that as I said before, is your problem.


I'll answer for Drew since he isn't on anymore (thank God - or a flame war would
have started with this last statement)!!!
I can see Drew's pt.  I was very confused when I saw Fenric too.  And when 
you have somebody who doesn't appeal to you that much (Ace) these things can
all combine to make you hate the episode.  Truthfully, I don't think I've
ever hated any episode, but for others it may vary.  I think Fenric confused
more than just a couple of scattered people here and there, so I kind of 
think his criticism is slightly justified.  Perhaps, he does overemphasize 
his hatred for it a bit, but that seems to be his style.

Now...on to other things

>The thrust of your argument is that there are lots of powerful races in Dr Who.
>Yes agreed. But no race has the Time Lords mastery over time. That is the 
>basis of their power. In Rememberance, the Doctor says the Dalek's time travel 
>is very crude, and they want the  power the Time Lords have. The Sontarans are
>the same. In the Two Doctors we are also told by whatisname when he is speaking
>to the Androgum woman that "the Time Lords have powers we haven't even dreamedof", 
>and they were on the verge of an efficient time travel system! The TLs
>seem to know just about everything there is to know about time. They can loop
>it, they can travel in it easily, they can reverse time streams, they can 
>move sideways in time, they can do the thing that Rassilon did to the Tardis
>in the 5 doctors. They can build machines which are bigger on the inside than the 
>outside. They can capture black holes and detonate stars by remote control.
>They can make a metal which will destroy an entire battle fleet, and who 
>knows what the hell the Demat gun was supposed to do? No other race on 
>Dr Who has come close to this. Meglos could create time loops, but
>his race is extinct too, or seemed to be, and for all we know he may be related to 
>the Time Lords in some way. The basic problem with the Time Lords is thatthey are 
>corrupt and complacent, that is their weakness, not a lack of power.

>Mark C. 

...And your point is that their technology over time is dominant (or superior,
shall I say) to all others.  Well...I don't agree b'cse of things like...like 
in The Deadly Assasin.  The Doctor is being shown where the matrix is and 
explained a little about it and he tells them that it is obvious that someone 
went in and intercepted the President being killed and piped it (sorry for that
UNIX reference) to the Doctor.  

The guy tells the Doctor, "That's impossible.  It would require a phenomenal
grasp of excitotronics (?)"

Doctor:  "Childs play for the Master.  Do you think this is complex?  There are
worlds out there that would make this equipment look prehistoric!"
						^^^^^^
That is why.  There is still a vast universe out there and we've only seen 
pieces of it.  :) 
To address what you have above, I think they've only captured a black hole once
- when Omega was "sacrificed".  They used the Eye of Harmony to stabilize it 
and "set the equations diamatrically equal to the mass of the planet".  Again, 
when Omega was defeated in the Three Doctors, another source was given to them,
although I don't think they captured it (maybe they did?).  I think alot of the
technology Rassilon came up with has been forgotten (sash, key, etc...).  You 
gain knowledge when traveling, and the TimeLords stagnant society diminishes 
more and more.  Again in The Deadly Assasin, the Castellan has no idea what the
injection that the Master used was (thought it was poison) while the Doctor 
recognized it rather quickly.  
	Another thing I just thought of was that vampire like creature in State
of Decay.  The creature escaped them by going thru a CVE and eluded them.  They
had no idea how to get to it (or couldn't).  Already the Tharils are one up on 
them.  I don't think it is fair to say...well that creature/race is extinct so 
they don't count.  I'm sure there are parallel universes, and in any case, they
did exist at one pt.  They do not exist in the present of the Doctor that we 
have last seen, but that means nothing.  What if Sutekh was pulled into another Time corridor by another person (maybe the Master)?  What if Meglos thought he 
was the last one but wasn't?  Etc...  There can always be whatifs in Sci-fi!  
And the Time Lords, as powerful as you see them, always seem to need to rely on
the Doctor (or someone active/cunning) to  get them out of hot water.  To me, 
that's not a powerful race - techonologically advanced yes (no argument there),
but not the most powerful.  

	Mystic
(alex.soto@analog.com)

PS  You wrote another (rather harsh) letter in answer to Drew.  He is not on
the net at the moment, so please wait til he gets back to address the issues
you did.  
	I myself do not want to get into the now infamous MU argument, but feel
I can retain a level of addressment to a topic such that one will not get
offended.  If I ever offend you, let me know directly, and I will apologize 
since I'm sure that was/will not be my intent.

PPS.  An interesting question for you since you are directing your argument
towards entire races.  What about in Logopolis?  That race could actually
change matter with math.  Should they be considered more powerful than the
TimeLords?  They were literally holding the universe together!!!  That seems
pretty formidable to me. (too bad today will me my last posting til a week -
I'd like to see the episode over and then comment on it - oh well...)

<...things that make you go hmmm!>

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