HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.EDU (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: you just don't understand (was: control of display ...)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:27:36 GMT

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>This is similar to saying, "If a black person gets to be CEO, no one
>is going to put them in jail."  The advertisers and the money are
>simply not going to go into such a project.  This would simply mean
>that there would be, amidst all the trash and grease, one lone little
>magazine, purchasable at probably one tiny little alternative
>bookstore per city, that would have something else to say -- and that
>would get drowned out in the cacophony of garbage.  We're not looking
>to just take off our shirts and vent off steam, and saying that's all
>it is is trivializing.  We're talking about a major social shift that
>will be necessary before such things are possible.  Again, I beg you
>to read _The Beauty Myth_ and _The Mismeasure of Women_.

I think people have missed the boat here.  As we speak (er, type)
there are feminists who are working very hard to see to it that no one
can publish anything showing any nekkid wimmen AT ALL, no matter how
"alternative body image" the models may be.  Do you understand?  If
the USA starts passing ordinances like the ones in Canada (which _Ms._
has held up as models to be followed), you won't be able to show self-
confident 30-something goddesses OR undernourished 18 year old
cheerleaders, or indeed anything that some man somewhere might
conceivably get a rise out of.  There is no way you can eliminate all
the porn that men might like and still have any porn left for women.
I refer you to the Glad Day case in Toronto.  Before you say "This
does not represent the majority of feminists", first answer the
question "What are the 'majority' of feminists going to do about it?".

After all, it's not very far from "protecting women and children" to
"family values".

--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
                                   | cheap.   -- Thomas Jefferson

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From: rdh@veritas.com (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: bashing feminism in s
Date: 28 Sep 1992 19:34:21 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software
Distribution: world
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Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <1a342qINNqpn@agate.berkeley.edu> Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.ORG> writes:
>gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes...
>GF> I think the problem with the constant questioning of the
>GF> validity of feminism and other basic views is that we never
>GF> get beyond them to other issues.  ...
>GF>  ... However, instead of discussing the
>GF> issue within the context of feminism, Will Steeves wrote
>GF> in to challenge the idea that patriarchy was anything more
>GF> than a plot by power-seeking feminist conspirators to
>GF> denigrate all men.
>
>No, Gordon, I did *not* say that.  I *only* said that when "patriarchal
>theory" is used to explain *all* inequities in society, then it may be
>getting taken too far.
>
>I did *not* take offense with patriarchal theory as such, but *only* with
>instances where far too many problems are attributed to it.
>
>That is all.
>
>---
>Will Steeves

Hmmm.  Without rehashing the specifics of who said what to whom this
time, I just want to note that what Gordon complains of certainly
happens.

It happens often enough that a reasonable person might easily mistake
criticism of an application of the theory of patriarchy to a given
social deficiency for either a denigration of the theory or a defense
of the deficiency.  Where feminism is concerned, dismissal often takes
the form of criticism.

Thus, when offering a critique, I think it would help to make clear the
scope of one's criticism and the intention behind offering it.

I think it might also help, when one suspects that a dismissal is being
given in the form of criticism, to ask if that is what's going on,
rather than simply concluding that it is based on a trend.  If nothing
else, it's one way to confront the trend.

By the way, Will, you implied that "patriarchal theory" isn't
sufficient to explain all social inequities.  I'm not sure that it
isn't.  I guess I'd like for you to back up that implication.  For
instance, getting back to Gordon's point (boy it feels weird having
only men's names in this article), the argument that homophobia is
rooted in patriarchy sounded far-fetched to me until I looked into
it.   It doesn't seem that way to me any more.

Can you explain to me where this application of the theory falls short
in your eyes?

-r


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From: altosign@bu-pub.bu.EDU (tenney smith)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Child Rape and political activism
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:36:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: bu.97572
Organization: Boston University

I have just experienced a keynote address by Garnett Harrison, a
lawyer who was imprisoned and disbarred in her home state of
Mississippi for her actions in the protection of children raped by
their fathers.  The keynote and a following workshop were at the
conference on Women and Diversity held at Southern Connecticut State
College in New Haven, CT on Saturday Oct. 3rd.

I would like to speak to anyone from the Boston area who may have
attended the conference and heard the keynote.

I would also like to network with others who are involved in any form
of political activism in preventing the atrocities occuring in this
country and its legal system regarding child rape.

I am interested in learning about any existing organizations that
function as child advocates.

And finally I would like to learn of any possible training for child
advocacy work.  (I am primarily looking for groups, etc.  in the
Boston area but am open to information in general).

I rarely check my e-mail.  My phone number is (617)932-5447.

If someone from out of state has any information a long these lines
I will immediately return your call if you leave a number.

I would deeply appreciate any information.

Thank you
In the spirit of peace and justice for all

Tenney

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From: erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Chicago's The Dinner Party
Date: 4 Oct 92 15:30:03 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <memo.653460@cix.compulink.co.uk> dbailey@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>It is profoundly distressing that only 10 to 15 years after the
>work was created someone can post to this conference that it
>consisted of a few paper plates...

I agree.

>I wonder where it is now.  If there was any justice it would
>still be on display, either a permanent exhibition or touring to
>yet further parts of the world.

It is not currently being displayed.  It is in storage.  Chicago has
had offers to buy pieces, but she insists on its being kept together
and hopes it will be permanently displayed some day.

Chicago is still creating art.  I have heard she is now working on an
exhibit about holocausts.  If I am not mistaken, she is living in
Santa Fe, New Mexico.

					Ellen Spertus
					erspert@athena.mit.edu


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Newsgroups: soc.feminism,news.answers
From: muffy%remarque.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: (none)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:17:27 GMT
	<19tsr2INNsnc@agate.berkeley.edu> <1a77ubINNg61@agate.berkeley.edu>

In article <1a77ubINNg61@agate.berkeley.edu> kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts) writes:
>In <19tsr2INNsnc@agate.berkeley.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>Only SOME WOMEN, again.  Maybe I was wrong -- it IS an issue of control.
>>Right now, and I'm not trying to slam anyone, men control the image of
>>women being displayed -- and it sure ain't a realistic image.  If WOMEN
>>could control the display of our breasts, the iamge would of course
>>change.  We'd finally find out just what breasts look like.
>An issue worth consideration is how the status quo aids some women.
>The power the 'beautiful' women gain by virtue of being beautiful.

How is it that "being beautiful" can give women power?  Basically,
because *men* give them power because of their beauty.  There is
nothing, as far as I know, inherently powerful about being beautiful -
the power comes from the fact that the people *with* power value it
enough to trade some power for it.

>The
>increase in that power if the elite group is kept as small as possible.
>I think there is a large group of women who have just as much a
>vested interest in keeping things the way they are, as does any Old Boys
>Network.

These two statements seem contradictory, and I believe the first is more
accurate.  There is a *small* group of women who gain (and want to
preserve) some power from being beautiful.  However, since any power
they weild comes from the men who desire their beauty, the influence
they exert is still coming from men, for the purposes of the men.

>I don't belive all the blame can be laid at the feet of men.

Perhaps not "all," but how about "the vast majority?"

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn

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From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: you just don't understand (was: control of display ...)
Date: 4 Oct 92 15:31:03 GMT
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Followup-To: soc.feminism
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
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In article <1adqcdINNo4h@agate.berkeley.edu> 
 cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
[regarding publishing alternatives to Playboy]
>This is similar to saying, "If a black person gets to be CEO, no one is
>going to put them in jail."  The advertisers and the money are simply
>not going to go into such a project. [...]
>The establishment "jerks" can publish and sell that junk precisely
>becase current values are set up to allow them to do it easily and
>lucratively.  Appreaciate this fact, please!

One gets a sense of the relative size of the markets and/or the
degree of investment in them by looking at some of the existing
magazines that present alternative views of women and/or sexuality, i.e.:

  Yellow Silk

  Libido

  Sinister Wisdom

  On Our Backs

These are fairly well established, but are still basically small-press
operations without big-name advertising or distribution.

As the experiences of Ms. and Sassy (told to stop being so pro-gay among
other things) suggest, advertisers and distributers can be powerful
forces for censorship in the "slick" publishing world.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................


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From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.EDU (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: denial
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:58:18 GMT

dgross@zeus.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:

>I realize that me-too-ism has irritated many people in soc.feminism,
>but I couldn't help but respond to this post.  Denial and
>insensitivity is yet another sexism complaint that turns out to be a
>two-way street.

(Sexism story...)

>	I'm in the women's studies minor at Cal Poly.  One quarter, I
>	was taking a WS class, and the professor would occasionally
>	start the class with a joke.  These jokes usually targeted
>	men, and on a couple of occasions the jokes were very
>	offensive.  One I remember was about a flasher who asked a
>	woman "Well, what do you think?" and she responded, "It looks
>	like a penis, only smaller..."

>	Kind of amusing, but I'm sure you can guess that with the
>	genders reversed, the joke would have been considered sexist,
>	offensive, and possibly sexual harassment.

>	The real punchline, though, came the following quarter, when I
>	had the same professor again for a different WS class.  She
>	was doing a unit on sexual harassment and made the following
>	comment:

>		"There are still some professors here at Poly who
>		 don't realize that making jokes about womens' anatomy
>		 constitutes sexual harassment."

>	So there you have it.  Denial from a professor of the New
>	Sensitivity.

But remember, this joke was told about a *flasher* -- that is, a
man engaged in scary emotional abuse of women. (And it is
very, very frightening to be flashed on a twilit street...You
don't know what the creep is going to do next.)

This man wasn't getting naked for any good reason...And I'm all for
any tactic which would defeat his purpose (to terrify the woman).

However, you do have *some* point. There was a discussion on
rec.arts.books about hiring people on the basis of appearance.
A man indicated that he would be more likely to hire a
secretary that looked like (some Christie Brinkley clone, I forget
the name). Another poster (male) called him pond scum, which I
suspect is probably quite appropriate.

Then a female poster indicated that her hiring policy, as regards
male employees, would be quite similar.

...No flames.

Lenore Levine

P.S. This posting is dedicated to Bernard Levine, 1923-1971, whose
untimely death was in part caused by attempts at weight control.

Women aren't the only ones who suffer...

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From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.ORG>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: bashing feminism in s
Date: 27 Sep 1992 01:51:22 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
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gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes...
GF> I think the problem with the constant questioning of the
GF> validity of feminism and other basic views is that we never
GF> get beyond them to other issues.  For example, I recently
GF> mentioned that some feminists had theorized that homophobia
GF> is produced by patriarchy or male suprmacist ideology.  This
GF> is a highly debatable issue; many other causes or origins
GF> can be hypothesized.  However, instead of discussing the
GF> issue within the context of feminism, Will Steeves wrote
GF> in to challenge the idea that patriarchy was anything more
GF> than a plot by power-seeking feminist conspirators to
GF> denigrate all men.


No, Gordon, I did *not* say that.  I *only* said that when "patriarchal
theory" is used to explain *all* inequities in society, then it may be
getting taken too far.

I did *not* take offense with patriarchal theory as such, but *only* with
instances where far too many problems are attributed to it.

That is all.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Corel Draw does it all?  If not, there's always EDLIN.


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From: Steve Russell <sfjr@wam.umd.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Military Quote
Date: 28 Sep 1992 17:16:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
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Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

>>|> say that they are opposed to it because they want to protect women from
>>|> being killed/captured/raped.
>
>Then why did the men in the Tailhook incident grab the women's bodies
>and assault them and threaten them?  Because they wanted to protect
>them?  I'm sorry, I just think that there isn't any male drive to
>protect women.  MY man would protect me, and I him.  But again, from
>what I said below, it's not cross-species.  I just don't buy it. 


Not all men are the same.  Some care about women, some are crimminals, and some
never grew up after junior highschool.  "Men" is a General term that means
literally billions of indviduals.

   All in all I agree with what you said, however I still dont like the
idea of my sister or girlfriend being drafted.  Basically, as much as I 
care for my own skin (enough to make plans to flee the country during-
the gulf war) if push came to shove I would rather face the horrors of war
then subject them to it. 

   Why are so many feminists eager to eligible for combat?  I would love
to have the protection from it that women now enjoy.  The argument that
women dont deserve equal rights because they dont fight in wars is fallacious.
What men who are 4f, come from rich families, or whose number simply never
comes up?

   I'm against conscription for EVERYONE.  I think it is a good state of
affairs that more than 1/2 the population is insulated from it.  One more
half to go and it might be so difficult to fight a war the government might
need a REAL reason for it


Steve R







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From: alubiw@maytag.uwaterloo.ca (Anna Lubiw)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women warriors and male myths (WAS: Military Quote)
Date: 6 Oct 1992 14:55:28 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: world
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Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <1an2f0INNdlm@agate.berkeley.edu> bickis@skmath2.pa.dec.com (M. Bickis) writes:
>In article <1ad7drINNjj5@agate.berkeley.edu> blchapma@eos.ncsu.edu (BEKKI LYN)
>writes:
>>Tell that to all those women who died in the witch persecutions for
>>4 centuries.  They died for some other person's ideal (or myth if
>>you prefer).  Tell that to all women who now are living with such
>>low self-esteem, or get beaten, battered, and broken for not living
>>up to someone else's ideal.
>
>I did not suggest that *any* person's ideal or myth is a good or positive
>thing.  I was talking about a particular gender myth---that men are to
>be courageous and protective whereas women are to be nurturing and
>nonthreatening.  Burned "witches" and battered wives are not the
>consequence of this myth.

On the contrary, if women are to be "nurturing" and men are to be
"aggressive" (M. Bickis's word from earlier in the posting), then 
consider the situation when a woman fails to be suitably nurturing.
You get the kind of question asked in this newsgroup a while ago
about whether a man is justified in hitting his wife if she burns his
toast on a regular basis.  Wife battering is a direct 
consequent of the myth Bickis advocates.  The myth says that a man's ideal 
response to a problem is to act aggressively to solve it.  If a woman is 
not suitably nurturing, that is a problem, and is to be met with agression.

Let's have no single myth (even if it is the one Bickis considers "good"!).
Let's have as many myths as there are people, and let them apply to
everyone, regardless of gender.

Anna Lubiw


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Newsgroups: soc.feminism,news.answers
From: msaletni@jade.tufts.edu (Michael J. Saletnik)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Changing names of the student body (poll)
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:31:10 GMT
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA

In article <5840@news.duke.edu> infante@acpub.duke.edu (Andrew Infante) writes:

>   "Frosh" is the term used here for members of the freshman class.
>...
>unless (freshmen, freshman that is) you are referring of course 
>to the whole class, 

So you would refer to the "Frosh that are attending Freshman
Orientation?"  That's interesting.

Have you ever had a directive from the administration, though, that
states that the individual students *must* be called "Frosh" instead
of "Freshmen?"

						Michael

ps - 

>if you are using it as a derogatory term, "Just look at that (group of)
>freshman!  Humph, kids!"

We always call them "Flocks" since they always seem, for the first few
weeks, to go everywhere in groups of not less than 6 ...
:-)
--
Michael J. Saletnik, Tufts University E'91 G'93  / I reserve the right
Department of Civil Engineering Computer Lab TA / to be utterly and
michael@binkley.ext.tufts.edu (daily uucp)     / completely wrong.
From: wells@athena.cs.uga.edu (Scott Wells)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Literary Societies
Date: 28 Sep 92 05:56:29 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens


Howdy netlanders !
I'd like to know if there are members of traditional literary (some
literature, some debate, or some publishing) out there. Although I am
sure there are some very nice literary magazines and college debate
teams, I mean the kind of semi-fraternal club with a long history and
a bizarre Greek, Latin or historical figure name. Almost all are found
on the East Coast. Some examples are the Philomathean Society at the
University of Pennsylvania, the Di-Phi's of the University of North
Carolina, the Eupemians (?) of Davidson, and the Washingtons,
Jeffersonians, Philolexians, the Cliosophics and so forth. Please
e-mail me and let me know what y'all are up to, as in numbers of
members and activities performed.


Scott Wells
Demosthenian Society
University of Georgia
wells@athena.cs.uga.edu