From: judi@wam.umd.edu (Jay T Stein -- now under 2 bucks)
Subject: Steve and Me (formerly: PP executive says...)
Originator: judi@rac1.wam.umd.edu
Organization: Washington Area Clinic Defense Task Force, Washington, D.C.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:35:40 GMT

What: <1992Jul27.205210.5129@csus.edu>
Who:  chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney)

>>    = Jay T Stein
>>>   = Doug Holtsinger

>>>On numerous occasions, I've seen you make reference to religious
>>>abortion protesters. You must have a reason for doing that, and I
>>>just assume that you want to promote the idea that abortion is a
>>>religious issue (at least, for some people). 
>>                                ==== ======
>>
>>Yes - I'm saying it's a religious issue for the anti abortion protesters.
>>Which falls right in line with my observation (and gripe) that the pro-life
>>movement seems to have strong religious connections.
>
>So does the abortion rights movement. 

Not nearly to the extent that the Pro Life movement does.  You don't see
too many escorts praying the Rosary, for example.

>>They're not tactics Doug, I'm simply stating my views.  I find it interesting
>>that pro-lifers here seem to be the ones stuck on using war terms:  enemy,
>>generals, tactics, weapons...
>
>Lessee... maybe because this IS a war? 

I hear that from pro-lifers a lot.  This is WAR!  And in WAR, the
object is to dehumanize and destroy the "enemy," exactly what they accuse
us of doing.  The same pro-lifers that claim to be compassionate and have
respect for all human life insist on characterizing our struggle as a
"war," thus relieving them of the responsibility of treating us like
people.  Your attitude is quite typical among the members of a group
you claim to loathe - Operation Rescue.  They routinely dismiss me
as deliberately evil - someone who likes the idea of killing babies.
Saves them the trouble of having to think that maybe I might have a valid
point or two.

I, Steve, am a peacekeeper.  And it is my frustrating and thankless task
to help ensure that this guerilla, war-like mindset which you and the
similarly minded Operation Rescue posess doesn't erupt into violence on site.

It doesn't always work, though.  Last year a pro-lifer beat a pro-choice
woman on the face with a flashlight.  See my post, "That's what it's all
about" for more examples of what the violent, war-like mindset of
Operation Rescue can, and often does, lead to.

It is sad and ironic that this group, that you claim to loathe, is a near
perfect mirror of your own mindset - home to an attitude of mindless
arrogance and total lack of respect for other people, not to mention
the glorification of violence and severe paranoia.

>>>I have previously stated that religious beliefs are an inadequate
>>>basis for supporting or opposing abortion laws. I have publically 
>>>criticized pro-lifers (and pro-choicers) for using religion in this
>>>manner. I don't publically criticize every poster because it's a
>>>waste of bandwidth. 
>> 
>>This paragraph applies exactly to me as well.
>
>What? That criticizing you is a waste of bandwidth? 
>I believe we hit the nail on his head, Doug! 

Perfect example of what said above about arrogance and lack of respect.
Did you have any constructive reason to make that kind of remark, when
I was clearly agreeing with Doug?

>>I did not ignore it, I said that she's entitled to her opinion.  As for
>>whether I agree with it, you know that I don't - I've said that my
>>opinion is that personhood begins at birth.
>
>You also seem to ignore that her opinion was pushed as abortion
>advocacy. 

Try to keep up, Steve.  I explicitly said that I disagree with the
religious view as a basis for law.

>>>You asked me to comment on a pro-life religious statement. In response,
>>>I disagreed with it.
>>
>>Yes, you did.  So we're back where we started - and that is with your
>>claim that I'm trying to make abortion a religious issue.  Please stop
>>misrepresenting me.
>
>Please stop misrepresenting him, Doug... (sniff sniff.) 

Another perfect example of my comments about lack of respect and a
confrontational, war-like mindset.

I admit, Steve, that I prefer asking nicely to swearing, calling the
person a moron and threatening them by email.  While this approach may
make me look rather weak to you, I find that it gets me more respect,
more credibility and, in the end, more friends.  It also helps me to
maintain an atmosphere in which further dialog is possible.

You should try it.  Also, the next time you promise to put down your
flamethrower and post rational articles, you might try sticking to
your promise.

>>My God, I can hardly believe what I'm reading! 
>						- Jay T Stein 

I really like that you use this quote - keeps me from having to
repeat myself. :)
--
     _____     __      __               -=* Jay T Stein *=-
   |   |      |  \    /        
   |   |  in  |   |  |               Internet: judi@wam.umd.edu
|__|   |      |__/    \__               GEnie: J.STEIN18

But still I fear and still I dare not laugh at the madman.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion