HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma)
Subject: The Sax-Perez trade: one year after
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:01:45 GMT

  Although no one points it out, the Sax-Perez trade was perhaps the one most
devastating mistake to the Chicago White Sox this year and leaves them looking
much worse for this upcoming year than could have been hoped.
 The surface of the deal looked sound at the time; Chicago, looking for a
championship and well within grasp of one dealt for a consistent hitter and
a guy who could hit second for boppers like Ventura and Thomas. I felt that
it was a good deal at the time as Melido Perez hadn't distinguished himself as
a starting pitcher and I thought he'd remain a solid relief pitcher, and the
White Sox were reasonably deep in the pen already....how wrong I was.   .
 The White Sox most glaring weakness this year was in the starting rotation,
which consisted of McDowell and a couple of serviceable fourth or fifth starter
types like Hough, Fernandez, McCaskill and Hibbard. Having Perez would have
given them two legitimate aces to deal with.
 What didn't really hurt the White Sox but could have was acquiring Steve Sax
when Grebeck showed that he could do the job offensively, and do it quite well.
Which would have made Sax unnecessary but when Guillen got injured early they
needed all the help they could get in the infield. I'm not exactly who is
set to play in 1993 for the ChiSox but Steve Sax won't be much of an improvement
over Craig Grebeck, and when you consider salaries......
 
 I just wanted to post this so we don't forget exactly what the GM does to make
or break teams. Don't let them off the hook that easy......

					Gord Niguma
					(fav player: John Olerud)
From: mjs@fc.hp.com (Marc Sabatella)
Subject: Re: Steve Reed -- Once a Giant, Now a Rocky -- WHY?
Reply-To: marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:03:03 GMT

John H. Rickert (rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu) wrote:
: 
: Isn't this the same sort of reasoning that kept Dan Quisenberry 
: out of the majors until he was 26?

Perhaps; it could also be why he was all but washed up a short time later.

--
Marc Sabatella
marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com
--
Amendment 2 Is Legalized Discrimination - Shame On You, Colorado
--
"Neither the State of Colorado ... nor any of its municipalities ... shall ...
 enforce any ... ordinance ... whereby homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual
 orientation ... shall ... be the basis of ... any ... claim of discrimination"
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
From: tml@druhi.ATT.COM (Tim Larison)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The first pick -- David Nied
Summary: Turner overrules baseball people
Keywords: STUPID
Date: 18 Nov 92 03:28:42 GMT

In Denver I heard that Nied was originally on the Braves protected list,
and Deion Sanders was not.  Braves owner Ted Turner overruled his baseball
people and told them to protect Sanders.  Nied was 15th on the list,
so he was kicked off the protected list to protect Sanders.

The baseball fans of Denver thank Ted Turner.  Nied seems to be a
better prospect than either Mercker or Pete Smith, but time will tell.

				Tim Larison  att!druhi!tml
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: zell@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Joseph Zell)
Subject: Re: Predictions '93
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 17:48:29 GMT

dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler) writes:


>     Assuming Puckett signs with the ChiSox, can you imagine an offense

*Cough*

>with him batting behind Frank Thomas?  The opposing hurlers won't want to

*hack* *cough* *wheeze*

>pass Thomas, and he could get 150+ r.b.i.s!  Or, do you bat Puckett in

*COUGH* *COUGH* *HACK* *COUGH* *CHOKE* *HACK* *COUGH*
I seem to remember the same things being said when George Bell was traded to
the White Sox.
No, I'm not saying George Bell is a Puckett, but he can hit, and look
where the Sox ended up.
Sorry, but the South Siders will still be dreaming for a while. But that's
ok, cuz us North Siders aren't going anywhere anytime soon either. At least
Maddux might get a shot at a ring. If only they'd give Sandberg the same
opportunity.
Joe



>front of Thomas?  If the Sox sign him, and McDowell has another good year,
>the White Sox will have their first world title in 76 years.  Otherwise, I

It's going to take more than that. 
>think it'll be the Braves.

-- 
Joe Zell               * "Someone Kohl from Germany is on"
zell@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu  *  -A Clinton Aide, when German Chancellor Kohl 
                       *   called to congratulate Clinton on winning the 
                       *   election
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: erics@sco.COM (eric smith)
Subject: Re: Giants Sale Rejected 9-4
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:21:26 GMT


chuq@Apple.COM (Eeyore's Evil Twin) writes:

>On the other hand, they've talked about playing ALL DAY GAMES except for
>Friday evenings, too. While the Giants tried something similar a few years
>ago to relatively little sucess, if they commit to day games and stick to
>the schedule over a period of a few years, they can probably convince fans
>to start coming out on a regular basis. It might be tough the first season.
>Candlestick isn't terrible during the day, either -- a sweatshirt and a
>windbreaker will usually do it, as opposed to the late-night two jackets and
>emergency tent.

A big problem with this is that Candlestick, unlike Wrigley Field in
Chicago, is far from a downtown area where working people can be
convinced to spend a couple hours at the ballpark for day games.
By the time you'd be able to get to Candlestick, see the game, then
get back, you'd practically have to devote the whole day to it.
I just don't see this as a workable solution.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@sco.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610
From: pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Dodgers
Date: 18 Nov 1992 17:01:51 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

One of lifes great mysteries...what DOES Fred Claire see in Kevin
Gross????  During the year last year, Claire said Gross was
the most valuable player on the pitching staff...and he didn't
say that after the no-hitter.

I agree with your comments 100%.  Kevin Gross has mostly been
a number 4 starter AT BEST.  On the Dodgers two years ago, he
was number 5, and lost his starting position to Orel Hershiser
when he came back.  Gross is just a journeyman pitcher - - never
a star and never will be IMHO.

Maybe the Dodgers think he will turn around like Mike Morgan did.
But Ron Perrinoski was really able to help Morgan from day one.
Gross has shown nothing new and no improvement with the Dodgers
over the past two years compared to his previous experience...

so maybe they don't want to admit they goofed when they signed
him to a $6 million contract?  Someone should explain to Fred
the concept of a sunk cost!

Otherwise, I also agree with your assessment...of course, the
Dodgers HAD little to lose to begin with...but I was really
surprised that Eric Young was taken first....he showed VERY
LITTLE in August and September with the Dodgers.

As for Hansell...he is considered one of their top pitching
prospects...that is all I know about him.

					Dodger
Date: Saturday, 21 Nov 1992 14:47:20 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Phillies #1
Distribution: usa

"what the hell is a phillie? that's got to be the worst name for
a professional team ever."

well, what illiterate morons decided to spell "socks" "sox"?

carlton fisk was a red sok, now he's a white sok?

bob vesterman.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: leza@taichi.cc.bellcore.com (breckinridge,robert c)
Subject: My Hall Of Fame Votes
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 18:36:12 GMT

Here are the votes I submitted for the Net Hall of Fame:

Players;

Whitey Ford
Jackie Robinson
Steve Carlton
Rod Carew
Tris Speaker
Cy Young
Mickey Cochrane
Rogers Horsnby
Ernie Banks
Mel Ott

Non-players:

Jack Brickhouse
Casey Stengel
Connie Mack
John McGraw





Robert
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: The New Yuck Mets: A Look Ahead
Organization: American Software Development Corp., West Babylon, NY
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 03:15:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.014509.23297@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>In article <kf0Mqfm00iUyI7oqoQ@andrew.cmu.edu> Kevin Paul Goldman <kg1i+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>>I'm heartened that the Mets dinally decided to adress a weakness instead
>>of loading up on names. It takes 9 to win a ball game, putting all the
>
>Not sure who you're referring to here.  Are you talking about Fernandez?
>If so, you're *way* off base.  This is *traditional* Mets baseball.
>Picking up an aging player who is overpaid but has a good reputation and
>much less production.  (Eddie Murray, for instance.)  

Keith Hernandez... Gary Carter... if we go back farther in their
"history" we find Rusty Staub (70s vintage), Felix Millan... then we can
go back and find Don Clendenon.  Wow, some history!  I'll take it!!

>I'd be surprised if Tony Fernandez has more than one above average year left.  
>He'll probably be about average, both offensively and defensively, next year.

Compared to their shortstops of the past few years, this would be a
great improvement!!

>What you *really* get is a really overrated team losing ball games.  How
>much longer are the Mets going to coast on the fact that Dwight Gooden
>*used* to be a star pitcher?

When he gets to be around 30.  Gooden is 28 TODAY (Happy Birthday,
DOC!).  You want to throw a 28 year old on the scrap heap?  I guess this
is why you're a GM!

>  Or that Murray *was* a great firstbaseman?

He was great, now he's just solid.  He provided the offense they
expected and the defense they expected.  They did not expect a GG nor
did they expect him to be their second coming of Keith Hernandez.  He
did the job in 1992, which is more than others on that team could say.
Also, Murray is not on their protected list.

>Or that Vince Coleman *used* to be slightly above average?

Neither is Coleman and if the Mets can find a suc.. err... taker for him
I am sure they would gladly give him up.  This is know, that's if you
actally read the press clippings and stop Mets bashing in the process!

>In fact, that hall-of-famer Charlie O'Brien outhit both of them.

I didn't see any smilies here, I hope you were kidding.
-- 
scott barman			| <This space intentionally left blank>
scott@asd.com			|
 (I can barely speak for myself, you expect me to speak for my employer??)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Re: The New Yuck Mets and the Fernandez deal
Organization: Pitzer College
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:42:12 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.145546.23687@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>Subject: Re: The New Yuck Mets:A Look Ahead
>In article <1992Nov15.014509.23297@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.
Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:>>In article <kf0Mqfm00iUyI7oqoQ@
andrew.cmu.edu> Kevin Paul Goldman <kg1i+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:>>


>>I'd be surprised if Tony Fernandez has more than one above average year left.  
>>He'll probably be about average, both offensively and defensively, next year.
>>
>>And he's a worse baserunner than Sam Horn.  Because at least Sam Horn is
>>*smart enough* to KNOW that he can't take the extra base.  Tony
>>Fernandez still thinks this is the mid-80s, when he could get 10+
>>triples a year.   But he sucks.  And as for basestealing?  He should
>>have one of his relatives killed every time he tries to steal a base.  
>
I refer you all to the Baseball America piece of 11/10 in re the Rigglemann 
hiring.  Rigglemann wants a running team.  Some guys can hit and run and 
some guys can't, he says.  Within a month Tony's a Met, and may I guess 
that he is to be the leadoff man.  Has Coleman lowered expectations *that* 
much?

>as a toronto fan, i can comment at least on the triples part and say
>that it is probably accurate. i remember his last year with the jays,
>it appeared to many TO fans that he decided he would be Mr. Triple,
>regardless of the cost, or game situation. i can remember several times
>he was thrown out ridiculously easily at third, sometimes with *nobody
>out*.

>that was three years ago -- if he is still doing it now (haven't seen
>much of him recently), i can imagine the results would be even worse.
>and forget about what a guy does in the clubhouse -- this is the best
>way to show that one is not a team player in my opinion (assuming
>he still does it).
>
>i did remember him being a pretty decent basestealer when he was with
>the jays...

Well, until this year he *was* a good baserunner.  At least he wasn't Steve 
Sax:

Year	3B	SB	CS	SB%
1988	 4	15	 5	.75
1989	 9	22	 6	.79
1990	17	26	13	.67
1991	 5	23	 9	.72
1992	 4	20	20	.50

As to the thrown out on base stuff in '90, I've no statistics, but the fact 
that he scored 84 runs with 48 XBH versus 91 in '87 with 43 XBH is 
suggestive.  I'd like to hear more about that, since he's currently my 
fantasy shortstop.

Sparky
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ataylor@agsm.ucla.edu (Al Taylor)
Subject: Re: Steve Howe
Date: 23 Nov 92 10:38:13 PST

dave@snitor.sni.ca (Dave Till) writes:

>I wrote:
>>>I, on the other hand, think that Steve Howe should be allowed to pitch as long
>>>as he is not in prison.  If a player's (alleged) crime is not directly
>>>related to baseball, punishing the player implies that baseball is above
>>>the law.  Which it isn't.

>To which, in article <ataylor.722283836@uclagsm>,
>ataylor@agsm.ucla.edu (Al Taylor) responds:
>>Ahhh, but here is the problem. It does relate to baseball because MLB has 
>>a anti-drug policy (correct?). So the problems are, if they have this policy
>>should they inforce it? If not whats the point? And what does that tell
>>the fans who they are selling this policy too?

>My point is this:  why should major league baseball have an anti-drug policy?
>Why should baseball do the courts' job (or the legislators', or the police's)?

Exactly. But they do so they should inforce it or get rid of it. None of this
b.s. Lifetime ban seven times shuffle that is a complete joke.


al			ataylor@agsm.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ellis@coracle.cis.ohio-state.edu (steven lawrence ellis)
Subject: Re: All Star Team Voting
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:59:01 GMT

In article <17NOV199210354852@utarlg.uta.edu> b706zdj@utarlg.uta.edu (Jason Brown) writes:
>With the expansion draft 3 hours away, and the winter meetings coming up, I'd
>like to see who you think should be on the AL and NL All-Star Teams. Here's my
>vote:
>             AL             NL
>1st-       Thomas         McGriff
>2nd-       Alomar         DeShields
>SS-        Fryman         Fernandez(? hummmm)
>3rd-       Martinez       Pendelton(Sheffield's has 1 good year)
>C-         Tettleton      Daulton
>OF-        Sierra         Bonds
>           Gonzalez       Grissom
>           Griffey        Walker
>SP-        Brown          Maddux/Glavine
>RP-        Eck            Wetteland
>Manager-   LaRussa        Alou
>   Send your "votes" to either
>       b706zdj@utarlg.uta.edu or
>       cs1441fs@decster.uta.edu
>  Results will be printed from time to time as votes come in
>
Are you an Expos fan or what?
Larkin for NL short.  Bip Roberts for NL 2nd.

Stv


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: lsmith@atto.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: Re: Minor trade
Organization: The Little Twin Squids of the Poor
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 00:21:06 GMT

In article <By17wB.DEs@news.iastate.edu> sckelm@iastate.edu (Steven C Kelm) writes:
>I heard that the Twins traded Darren Reed to the Mets, but who did they get
>in return?  I'm assuming it was little more than a six-pack and a bag of 
>peanuts.  Just curious.

They got the once and future Twin Pat Howell. 

I don't know where this infatuation for quick, no-hit outfielders, but I'm
getting really tired of it. I realize that 75 AB isn't grounds for judging
a player, but Jumping Huckabay on a Pogo Stick, Howell managed to get only
1 walk while striking out 15 times! 

I would have gone for the beer and peanuts. At least they would have kept
Hrbek happy.

----------------------------
  Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith | "He is an aristocrat and a peanut. Citizen 
    (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)    |  St Just says that is enough to warrant his 
    Reynard and Tybert's   |  death. I do not wish to argue with St Just."
        Biggest Fan        |             _Mr Peanut and the Reign of Terror_
From: srobson@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Seth I Robson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Update please on the Humm Baby
Date: 21 Nov 92 22:52:54 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


Bill Laird <COP80196@UCF1VM.BITNET> writes:
> Can someone give me an update on the Humm Baby himself, Roger Craig. Is he
> going to retire, or stick it out? Has their been any speculation of what the
> new ownership group is going to do?

He will probably follow Al Rosen's lead and announce his retirement sometime
this week.

> Roger Craig is probably the best thing that ever happened to the SF Giants.
> It never ceases to amaze me how he gets every last ounce out of his players.
> I hope the Hummster will coach for at least 2-3 more years, as his value to
> the organization can't be understated.

I have as much respect and good will as anyone towards Roger Craig and Al
Rosen, who were able to turn a 100 game loser into a division winner that
came this close to winning the pennant within the span of two years.
However, it's time for a change.  Big time.  It's time for a new GM/
field manager tandem that will have the patience to rebuild a team that
threw out the future for the glory of 1989.  It's time for management that
won't blow buckets of money on the likes of McGee and Righetti.  This is
mostly an indictment on Rosen, sure, but the Giants above all need a manager
who will have the patience to nurture young arms like Torres, Rogers, Huis-
mann, and MeGehee--and perhaps rescue the careers of Trevor Wilson and
John Burkett (if possible :-).  Roger Craig has never shown that he has what
it takes to do that, and should retire with dignity right now for the good
of the Giants' future.

--
Seth I. Robson: srobson@ucscb.ucsc.edu  "The only alternative to the Spectacle
                 srobson@cats.ucsc.edu   becomes the Spectacle of the
  University of California, Santa Cruz   alternative."  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jhopkins@cbacc.cba.uga.edu (John Hopkins)
Subject: The first pick -- David Nied
Keywords: STUPID
Organization: Terry College of Business, University of Georgia
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 19:47:14 GMT


It is 2:30 pm in the Eastern time zone, and the Colorado Rockies just
took David Nied in the expansion draft from the Atlanta Braves.  What
this means is this:  JOHN SCHUERHOLTZ IS TOO FUCKING STUPID TO
LIVE!!!!

Man, am I ever steamed!!  A few weeks ago, I drew up my protected
list for the Braves.  It was as follows:

Glavine
Smoltz
Avery
Wohlers
Stanton
Nied
Lopez
Klesko
Lemke
Belliard
Pendleton
Gant
Nieves
Justice
P. Smith or Mercker  (I originally had Chipper Jones here, but he
                      didn't have to be protected, so take your pick
                      for this last spot.)

As we all know now, the Braves elected to cover the following folks:

Glavine
Smoltz
Avery
Wohlers
Stanton
Lopez
Klesko
Hunter
Blauser
Pendleton
Gant
Sanders
Nixon
Nieves
Justice

Five outfielder on this list!  STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!!  This has
really steamed my clams!!  I hope David Nied wins Rookie of the Year
and the fucking Cy Young Award.  It would serve the Braves right!!

The Marlins just took some kid named Nigel Wilson, of whom I have
never heard.
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Mitchell for Charlton and other trades.
Date: 22 Nov 92 17:25:24 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <1992Nov22.025149.818@netcom.com> arrow@netcom.com (Les Arrow) writes:
>>Putting Edgar Martinez there is not "wasting" him.  When you've got a
>>guy that can put up a .400 OBP, it isn't wasting him to lead him off.
>>If it's his power you're worrying about, don't.  He doesn't have that
>>much.  This year was clearly a fluke; he's never displayed this much
>>power before ever.  For his career, he has less power than Rickey, and
>>you don't see too many people complaining that it's a waste to use him
>>at leadoff.
>>
>
>Edgar Martinez = Slow.
>
>Edgar Martinez is not Rickey Henderson. He won't steal more than 50 bases
>each year. He doesn't motor around the bases as fast. He doesn't worry
>pitchers when he's on first because they know he isn't going anywhere.
>Edgar Martinez will have trouble scoring runs because you need a triple to
>get him in from first base. See Wade Boggs.

Yes, by all means, let us look at Boggs. He is slow, but gets on base,
and can't score from first without a triple. Somehow the Sox managed
enough triples to let Boggs score over 100 runs for 7 straight seasons
from 83-89. Edgar had 100 this year and didn't play the last month. 

In fact, Edgar scored .172 runs per plate appearance. Better than
anyone in the top 5 in stolen bases in either league. (Lofton.
Listach, Anderson, Polonia, Alomar, Grissom, Deshields, Finley,
Roberts, Ozzie). Better than anyone in baseball, I think, except Bonds
at .182. Even Rickey only had .157. Whatever problems Edgar has, it is
*NOT* scoring runs. (I didn't do an exhaustive search, just those who
were high in runs scored or stolen bases).

>If Edgar can hit .300 with doubles power, they need him in the middle
>of the lineup. Since he makes good contact, he's a good hit and run man
>when there is someone fast on in front of him. To compare him to Rickey
>Henderson is ridiculous.
>
>--Les

I beleive Edgar is probably better than anyone else they have as a
leadoff hitter. However, he probably is even more valuable as a 2 or 3
hitter. So if you have anyone out there who can get a .340 OBA ahead
of him, do it. If not, maybe you can get Newsome cheap from the White
Sox; they certainly aren't using him.

I hope the writer wasn't seriously comparing him to Henderson. His
point was that no one condemns Rickey as a leadoff man when he hits 20
HR. Power should not be a disqualifier for leadoff roles, but it
generally is more valuable down in the order. But if you have
sufficient power farther down, like McGwire, Canseco, Baines, you can
easily move it to the front with no loss of value.

Clay D.