HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: DU@ANLCHM.BITNET
Subject:      British and HK democracy.
Reply-To: DU@ANLCHM.BITNET
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:10:46 GMT

  Why the British's motive to give democracy to HK is so important to some
people? If you want democracy, support it, if you do not like it, against
it.

  There is no clear or single motive in anything. You can probably find
"good" motives for Deng Xiaoping to kill students. You probably can also
find "bad" motives for Zhao Ziyang to support students.

  If you do not want British to get all HK's money, stop it. But you can
probably only do it if HK has democracy, or you can rely on Chinese
government. Either way, talk more about issues, less motives.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Wing Ng <wing@pegasus.com>
Subject:      PRC wants to abrogate Joint Declaration on HK
Reply-To: Wing Ng <wing@pegasus.com>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:49:50 GMT
Comments: To: members@ahkcus.org, info-fdc@ahkcus.org,
          sdc@longhorn.corp.sun.com, hknet@cs.wisc.edu,
          china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu,
          soc.culture.hongkong@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu,
          soc.culture.china@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu

Copyright 1992 The New York Times
November 18, 1992  Late Edition  A1 and A11
China Threatens Hong Kong Treaty by Nicholas D. Kristof

>         Beijing,  Nov.  17  -- China  has sharply  escalated  its
> dispute with the British and Hong Kong authorities by threatening
> to  scrap  the 1984 agreement that promised Hong  Kong  continued
> political  and  economic  freedom for 50 years after  the  colony
> returns to Chinese control in 1997.
>
>         The  threat  was  made on Monday night  by  Deputy  Prime
> Minister  Zhu Rongji,  who was in London for talks  with  British
> officials.

In Black Society, they always want new joiners to prove their
toughness and demonstrate their "loyalty" by going out and murder
someone in a particularly grisly manner.  Now they want
soft-and-liberal ZRJ to demonstrate his "loyalty" to CCP's heinous
cause by performing this hatchet job.

Even back in 1983, during the PRC-U.K. negotiation on HK's future,
people were quoting this Bible metaphor:

Two women both claim a baby belongs to them, and the case went to
King Solomon.  The King took out a sword, and proceeded to cut the
baby in two, so that each woman can have 1/2.  One of the women
cried: "stop".  The King said, "you must be the true mother, you
care about the baby's well-being."

Sorry, the foreigner U.K. cares about our well-being (to some extent),
whereas the gangster group that now controls our motherland does
not.  It would rather let HK go down the drain than let it have
more democracy.

Of course, more proof is really not needed, that gangster group
perpetrated 6.4, right in its own capital.

Wing
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Ye <stacc0@QUANTUM.FIU.EDU>
Subject: (none)
Reply-To: Ye <stacc0@QUANTUM.FIU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:04:35 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

>FROM: Avron Boretz <xhgy@CRUX2.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>

>The main question, it seems to me, is not how much democracy Hong Kong does
>or doesn't have, but rather, how much say the people of Hong Kong have in
>determining their own future,

I don't think there was much consultation with HK people before British-CCP
agreement on transition. So much about HK's say in determine their own future.
I believe many HK people prefer a British governor. And when the British is
not available to rule, they prefer local Chinese than mainland Chinese. As one
netter puts it accurately: 'democracy is not necessary under British rule'.
That's where some hard feeling creeps up. Many mainlander, facing overwhelming
evidence, still refuse to accept the fact that HK people does not trust a bit
the present and future Chinese government (and can list many good reasons
for doing that).

>between the Brits and the CCP, while I'm not really sure I understand what
>the Brits think they're doing, at the very least, they are abiding by the
>original agreement, whereas the CCP keeps threatening to abrogate that
>agreement -- that is what both frightens and angers me, among others.

I don't know any detail about that agreement, so correct me if my guess goes
too wild: It's like a buyer and a seller have an agreement on a house: the
buyer wants to have the house 'as is', and promises not to remodel this
beautiful antique. The seller, before closing, decides to paint it pink.
Although it is proved beyond any doubt that pink is the only best color
for a house, the buyer still hates it, and gets angry because the house is
not quite pink when the seller lives in. Now, the agreement specifies that
the seller shall take good care of the house before closing. So the argument
becomes whether painting it pink is, as seller insists, a scheduled upgrading,
or, as buyer accuses, a plot to ruin this valuable property.

My advice is: the opinion of the house itself shall override the agreement.
If the house has split opinion, then 'divided it shall stand'. If the
divided house doesn't stand, then it's not worth my forever correct advice.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Shizhong Chen <chen%molly@SDSC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: PRC wants to abrogate Joint Declaration on HK
Reply-To: Shizhong Chen <chen%molly@SDSC.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:05:02 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

>From: bsun%decserv1@DNS1.EECS.WSU.EDU

>I completely agree with Mr. William Deng,
>who is "cold-hearted" and is one of the best
>among us Keda guys.

I have a question: what is this "us Keda guys"? If it is a alumni or
some kind of subgroup, it is probably more appropriate to post in your
"us Keda guys" subnet.

Just a suggestion.

Shizhong Chen
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: haijin@stein.u.washington.edu (Haijin Lu)
Subject: try
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: pnw
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 07:42:07 GMT

try
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: B118789@VAX.CSC.CUHK.HK
Subject:      20 Million Prisoners in China
Reply-To: B118789@VAX.CSC.CUHK.HK
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 03:31:00 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Several people have questioned me about my source for
my claim that China has 20 million prisoners.

The figure is in "Laogai: The Chinese Gulag", by Hongda Harry Wu.
Westview Press, Boulder, Colorado.

News about public executions of prisoners in China for minor crimes
is common in the daily press here in Hong Kong. I am surprised that
Chinese people living abroad are unaware of this practice.

Mak
Hong Kong
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china,soc.culture.china
From: lwang@mariner.amc.edu.au (Luo Wang)
Subject: Re: Yang Baibing and China After Deng.
Organization: Australian Maritime College
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 09:42:10 GMT

>Deng Xiaoping was very concerned about the stability of
>China after his death. He realized that Yang Baibing would
>be a source for the country's split after his death. Therefore
>Yang Baibing was stripped all major millitary power in the
>14th CCP Congress.
>
>Will there be a big political show down after Deng Xiaoping's
>death?

I have little doubt about it.

However, YangBaibing 's incident is interesting. I believe it has something 
to do with Deng's triumph at 14th CCP Congress. You must remember that Yang
Baibing used to be Deng's military aide to balance the ChenYun faction
(which I don't like to label as conservative). Now Deng has achieved what
he likes to achieve before his death. The pressure from Chen Yun is no longer
overwhelming as far as Deng is concerned. Yang naturally became a new threat
to Deng. Deng has to get rid of him before his death. It is nothing new.
Look at Chinese history, Jiao1 Tu3 Si9, Lie4 Guo0 Peng6, Mao didn't need
General Lin Biao any more after he won the battle with Liu Deng, therefore, 
we had 913 incident.

Deng doesn't have much political imagination, what he can do is
copy-after-copy. Mao had been influenced by the Chinese history. Deng, like
Zhou Enlai and other Chinese communist old guards, is lack of confidence
when he compared himself with Mao. However, in terms of copy of Mao, Deng is
quite outstanding anyway. Does his tour of Southern China early this
year ring you a bell?

That Mao copied Chinese history, CCP copied KMT and USSR, the Oversea
Democratic Moverment copies CCP in many way:-), in fact, are the many examples
of the repetition in the history.

Don't label Lin Biao. See closely to the Yang Baibing's incident. It's got
to be something intersing. Don't believe the office version. There are so
many things in China remain mysterious.

All these indicate that Deng's desire to stability after his death is not
only beyond his imagination but his ability as well. I bet you one dollar on 
it.

Luo Wang 

Australia
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 01:14:11 EST
From: <JXL124@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: IFCSS HQ NR-4069: Mass Mailing: Urgent Call for Help

What are the letters about?  Luo
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Zhe Chuan Feng <PHSZCF@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      sign off
Reply-To: Zhe Chuan Feng <PHSZCF@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 22:30:00 GMT

Dear CHINA-NT:
              I am going to Singapore for 1-2 years tomorrow. Please sign off
my present account.  After I set down a new account there, I'll ask you to
reset a new account for me. Many thanks for your good service.
                                                      Zhe Chuan Feng
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu)
Subject: Re: Bizarre Misrepresentations on CHINA-NT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Distribution: na 
Date: 21 Nov 92 18:42:29 GMT

In article <By1nvs.7B3@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> B118789@VAX.CSC.CUHK.HK writes:
[......] 
>
>China has 20 million political prisoners. Each year more than 20,000
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you are saying that 1 out of 50 chinese man, women, and children
are in political concentration camp right nows?  that is certainly not 
including other prisoners that had broken criminal laws of the land?  

so, to maintain that 20 million figure, the government each year had
to have some massive nazi-SS storm trooper types of raids to arrest
say about 1 million or so prisoners, since let's say 1 out of that
20 million will die of torture of something?  

and another question, since they only have 3 million+ soldiers and
about half a mil armed police, and obviously the majority of those
had to be stationed near the border areas to maintain China's
imperial ambition of the (x)USSR, India, Afghan, Vietnam, Burmaese
territories, and keep an eye on those pesky capitalists in Hong
Kong, how do they guard the 20 million political prisoners, and
let's say at least 20 million more ordinary criminals?  how do they
prevent prison camp uprising?  or do they feed the prisoners at all?

let's say 1 out of 50 chinese are political prisoners, no matter
how secret the arrests are, people I know ought to disappear for
no reason once a while, right?  


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: wshi@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Weiping Shi)
Subject: Re: Reply to some comments on HK democracy
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 02:52:03 GMT

In <By27Bt.9wr@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> Shizhong Chen <chen%molly@SDSC.EDU> writes:

>Since 1946, the British wanted to introduce an elected legislature.
>It was then opposed by local conservatives.  Since 1949, CLAIM THE
>BRITISH, they have been warned by the PRC NOT to introduce any
>democracy in Hong Kong.

They are still warned by PRC now.  But why don't they listen
this time?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Guo-Bin Ren <rengb@UCS.ORST.EDU>
Subject:      suscribe
Reply-To: Guo-Bin Ren <rengb@UCS.ORST.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 00:38:47 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

please add my name in your mailing list. thank you.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: wshi@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Weiping Shi)
Subject: Re: Clinton's turn-around on Bush's China policy.
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 04:16:58 GMT

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>3. U.S. President-Elect Clinton Signals Tough China Policy .............. 29
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Clinton said China had shown "moderation" on issues such as exporting goods
>produced with prison labor and alleged unfair trade practices after the Bush
>administration "took a tougher line" against Beijing.

>"There are indications in the past few months that a firm hand by our
>government can help achieve that," he said.

If the grounds for a "tough stand" are based on "it works"
then it is half-way tough, and therefore it won't work.

When you want tough, you don't say because it works
better, you say it's principle.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: HWANGK@VTCC1.BITNET
Subject:      Forwarding as requested
Reply-To: HWANGK@VTCC1.BITNET
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 05:30:00 GMT

        IFCSS established CDA -- Committee for Drafting Amendments
                for IFCSS Constitution and By-laws

        IFCSS Council recently established a committee called CDA
(Committee for Drafting Amendments to IFCSS Constitution and By-laws).
The establishment of this committee is the implementation of a
resolution passed by the 4th Congress of IFCSS. The purpose of this
committee is to prepare draft amendments for revising IFCSS Constitution
and By-laws. Those amendments will be presented to the 5th IFCSS
Congress for discussion and passage.

        CDA will collect opinions from CSS all over US concerning the
future structure of IFCSS. Concerned CSS may send their opinions to the
CDA net (cda@ifcss.org) directly or to any of the 11 committee
members of CDA, whose email address and phone numbers are listed below.

        CDA will post the amendments it has drafted on China-net and
CCNL net before the 5th Congress for public discussion.

Xu Yi, Chairman of CDA (Signed)


Xu Yi, 35 Northwood Apt., Storrs, CT 06268, (203)429-8289, xuy@uconnvm.bitnet
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: news@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca
Subject: try
Organization: McGill University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:14:39 GMT

sorry, this is  a try.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Xiaowen Li <LIX@CRSA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: information request
Reply-To: Xiaowen Li <LIX@CRSA.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 15:32:12 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

As netters have pointed out already, Xiao Bin's case is very famous.
But to my dissapointment, very little effort from oversea has been
devoted to his release.

The unfairness of that case is very obvious. As everybody in street
during that night knew, what Xiao Bin told that foreign TV reporter
had been widely believed by everybody, because the Bejing Radio's
report has been fed back by VOC and BBC, and broadcast by students'
loudspeakers. Everybody believed the massacre was confirmed even by
China's official radio station.

Even as CG insisted, what Xiao Bin said was not true, by no mean
Xiao Bing should get heavier punishment than the Beijing Radio speaker,
who has been released after one year's detention. We applauded for
his release, since even he broadcast "rumor" without authorization, it
was understandable in such a special circumsatnce.

I hope that we can push Chinese government to show similar leniency to
Mr. Xiao Bing, and other common citizens who only shown their moral
anger in such a mess.

Xioawen Li, Boston U
From: JDW5139@TAMXRD.TAMU.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: MFN and IFCSS
Date: 17 Nov 92 04:04:20 GMT
Reply-To: JDW5139@TAMXRD.TAMU.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

> From:         Yuhe Liu <liu@ATMOS.UMD.EDU>
> Subject:      MFN and IFCSS

> ing to that system.  Therefore, in my opinion, IFCSS should  stop  lobbying
> the  congress for CMFN. I think we should lobby the White House to increase
> more pressure on the Chinese government to improve human rights  in  China.
> As  an  administration,  the White House should be more useful in practical
> operation than a CMFN bill.

I agree that IFCSS should stop lobbying the congress for CMFN. Further, I'd
like put forward a suggestion.

Although it is, perhaps, obvious  that the Chinese Government understands the
likelihood and consequence of losing MFN under the Clinton administration, it
may still be useful if IFCSS would consider convey such likelihood and conse-
quence to the lower and higher officials in China.  Let us make it clearer to
the Chinese Government that they would be better off to make real concessions
before consequences take place.  Someone may say I am crazy to believe the CG
would bend  to US pressure,  but the matter of fact is  that the CCP has been
very good in making flexible moves when its vital interests are in stake. One
good example was the omission of "one-China statement" from  the announcement
between China and  Singapore  for establishing their diplomatic relationship.
Consider this as one of the strategies the IFCSS could take. After all, there
have been previous proposals in IFCSS to "talk with" the CG.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: bihkyan@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Yang Yuanxin)
Subject: Re: 20 Million Prisoners in China
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 14:33:25 GMT

In article <By1roF.CGM@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> B118789@VAX.CSC.CUHK.HK writes:
>Several people have questioned me about my source for
>my claim that China has 20 million prisoners.
>
>The figure is in "Laogai: The Chinese Gulag", by Hongda Harry Wu.
>Westview Press, Boulder, Colorado.
>
>News about public executions of prisoners in China for minor crimes
>is common in the daily press here in Hong Kong. I am surprised that
>Chinese people living abroad are unaware of this practice.
>
>Mak
>Hong Kong

 You should not be so surprised if you know that even Chinese people
living inside China are unaware of this "practice", Only some smart
people living outside China are aware of this. Why? Because this kind
of news are manufactured outside of China.
 People who believe in this kind of thing must be one of the following
 two kinds of people:
 1. Too naive/stupid.
 2. Real enemy of China. (Who actually know this are untrue)
From: moxu@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Mousheng Xu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: sign off
Date: 22 Nov 92 21:46:45 GMT
Reply-To: Mousheng Xu <moxu@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

please sign me off.

thanks.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Subject: Re: Prisoner Execution: Shot from Behind
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 04:30:23 GMT

In article <By36CI.C85@acsu.buffalo.edu> xiaofei@acsu.buffalo.edu (XiaoFei Wang) writes:

>[ horrible description deleted ]

It was indeed horrible. I guess that is what China's Vice President
Wang Zheng meant "hot stuff". By the way, the first time I saw pictures
of Japanese killing Chinese was in Columbia East Asian Library. All
horrible pictures. Later I saw the picture which won Pullitz (?) Prize,
the picture in which a South Vietnamese official raising a pistol to
the head of a captured VetCom. Later I watched CBS replay of the video.
The guy really shot, and the VetCom fell just like what I described
in the execution sense. CBS also mentioned that the South Vietnames official
is now in America and opened a restaurant somewhere.

Have you seen 6/4 pictures? I have collected quite some horrible
ones on my shelf. One picture showed a spread of red things like
human flash crushed by tanks. The picture was not very clear. But
if it is real, the sense when it happened must be extramely horrible.

You know, something is wrong in this world.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.china:2765 soc.culture.hongkong:14536
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china,soc.culture.hongkong
Subject: Re: support hongkong democrac
Date: 18 Nov 92 05:30:04 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.china
Distribution: talk
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Nov12.3762.1740@dosgate> "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com> writes:
>Congratulations to HongKong's Democracy Fighters!!!

I don't think celebrations are in order yet.  It's much too early to
know what's going to come out of the Patten vs. Beijing confrontation.

>   Watching the recent development in HongKong, we would like to remind
>those brain dead hard liners of the CCP, whose petrified brain made them
>constantly living in the time warp of a past era; It is time to wake up
>from your nightmares! Your old tricks are only the laughing stocks of
>today's Hong Kong people!

Be very, very careful here.  An animal is most dangerous when it is
humiliated.  That's what worries me about the Patten vs.  Beijing
thing.  If Beijing backs down, Hong Kong gets 59 elected
representatives.  If Patten backs down, then Hong Kong eventually gets
30 elected representatives.  If no one backs down, the whole thing
could easily spin out of control, with Beijing tearing up with Joint
Declaration and Hong Kong getting no elected representatives.  Of
course, this will then result in street demonstrations which will
result in another TAM.

Worrying about this keeps me awake at nights.

Of course, it's important to push but.........

  1) Be careful when and how much you push
  2) Don't get overconfident
  3) Try not to humiliate the CCP too much.  As I mentioned before,
     a wounded and humiliated animal is at its most dangerous and
     irrational.

2) is important.  Hong Kong is entering a very delicate period, and
it's not a good idea to "celebrate" until you are sure you have won.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: ~~{5K~~}@bunny.rhic.bnl.gov (~~{5K6,F=~~})
Subject: Re: china-nt: Homeworks
Organization: ~~{W<9bKYVX@kWS6TW2;z~~}(Au+79)-> Little BIG BANG <-(Au+79)
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:43:12

>>>>> In article <BxHC8t.AFH@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>>>>> "Yue" == NY.  <NY.> writes:

  Yue>    So my point is that it really depends upon how they (the ordinary
  Yue> people) were surveyed and told. The different way to ask a same
  Yue> question will result in a totally different outcome.

You just proved that statisticians are damn liars ;-). Congrats!

--

~~{5K6,F=~~}
From: ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM (Ignatius Y. Ding)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Comments on Mak Hong Kon's mails. (fwd)
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:34:37 GMT
Reply-To: "Ignatius Y. Ding" <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Organization: Indiana University
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

> You will get a job as assistant secreatary of U.S., do more abuse of China!
>

  It seems to be a rather strange response from an intellectual, Chunde Shi of
  ulowell.edu).  Anybody knows what's going on?


  Ignatius Y. Ding
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china,soc.culture.china