From: bill@chaos.cs.umn.edu (Hari Seldon...psychohistorian)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: the end of civilization (a bit long) was Re: proposed increase in inher
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:26:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: chaos.bill.719195182
Distribution: na, usa
Organization: University of Minnesota

In <1992Oct14.190014.17593@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:

>In article <bill.719041356@chaos.cs.umn.edu> bill@chaos.cs.umn.edu ( Hari Seldon ... psychohistorian ) writes:
>>In <1992Oct14.010619.5749@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:
>>
>>>Wow, I'm impressed.  This guy is so self sufficient that he doesn't need
>>>the fabric of society around him.  He made his own terminal, his own network
>>
>>and how can you presume to say he didn't??????? i could, can you?
>>if my services stopped right now i could replace them, can you??
>>if we were put out in the woods with only ourselves i could survive and
>>prosper, could you??

>If the ability to grub out a living like an animal is a measure of a man's
>worth, then I shant contest you for it.  I might be able to survive

grub out a living? i raise over half of my own food, i kill my own meat
(usually), i live in a log house (r40 walls, r50 ceiling), i have radio
communications, i'm putting twisted pair ethernet in. on consulting 
work i do quite well thank you. grubbing out a living, excuse me. 
but i think not. besides i do believe the original question was
more along the line of the redistribution of wealth and self suffenciency.
not near starvation. i was pointing out that 'generally' speaking
most rural folk can do without all the support services *required*
in a city better than urbanites. *most* rural(ites) can take care of
themselves w/o a mondo infrastructure better than urbanites. also re
the manufacturing of his own high tech gear, i was pointing out the
potential falicy of yours as to whether or not he has/had the ability
to manufacture those items himself. from your tone i believe i can
assume that you can not, that does not mean that *he* can not. or me for
that matter. i was attempting to point out that i can survive in your
environment, can you survive in mine? which environment would *seem*
to produce people who did *not* need to be coddled and cared for.
remember the original thread is the redistribution of wealth from
those that have worked hard and provided for themselves and their families
to those who have not.

>out in the woods mano-a-mano with the bears, but personally, I like living in a
>civilization.   Oh yes,  by the way, can you make your own antibiotics, 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
i can assure you that there is civilization here. not a city, not people
on the dole as a way of life. not people (mostly, i think) who want to
take what i have because they do not have their own. also (not to say that
i *presently* can) again *you* are presuming that *i* can not do these
things, *you* do not know me, *you* have no clue as to what *i* can do
or not; so why do you continue to make these kinds of statements??
you really have me confused by the ad-hominon nature of your arguments.

>provide your own chemotherapy and surgery, etc???

>>>transportation system isn't needed to help bring goods and services to his
>>
>>thats not the government. thats other people doing what they have chosen
>>to do with their lives.

>Rolling on privately built roads?

from the public (thats me and you and everyone else who pays taxes in 
the us) road to my house is a 1/4 mile road made-and maintained by me.
the bridge from norfolk va to portsmouth va was repaired by me (a few
years ago) there are a number of tankers/transports/barges/cranes and
buildings, in part, built by me. so what *your* point. *you* are the
only one one who is claiming that rural(ites) are living as hermits.
i never said it, mike never said it, and the initiator of this thread
was talking about taxes, so i know that they never said it.

>>>The court system?  Don't need that... just shoot 'em all and let God sort
>>>'em out.
>>
>>in some cases that may very well be the best thing that could happen.

>Well, what can one say to such brilliant neanderthalism?

*you* broached the topic, i mearly *agreeded* with *you*! so now you
are arguing against *your* own comment?????? but since you asked
i would like to point out thaty with the way the bleeding heart
court system si run (sometimes) that the simplest solution might
be to just remove the problem (which some here may decide is     me :)
me thinest thou takest thineself a we bit to seriously sometimes.

>>                                          i've news for both of you
>>grow up, become responsible for yourself, take charge of your life.
>>heck *get* alife.

>I have a life, thank you.  It involves being a part of a civilization

*you* are the one who claims there is now civilazation here, heck even
bryan system@coldbox.cojones.com has civilazation and look where *he*
lives. just because it's not the city does not mean it's barbaric.

>(have someone help you look that up in a dictionary and help you pronounce it).

ahhh. once again your argument has run out of steam (if it ever had any)
and you (heck right there even i) have resorted to ad-hominum attacks.

>I am in charge of that life, within the bounds of the social and cultural
>mileaux. I am responsible for myself, within that same set of parameters.

and i within mine. so once again whats your point. and what does any
of this have to do with misc.rural and the tax thread?? unless you
can bring this around to the original question this will be my last 
response in this group on this thread, if you wish to continue this
lets move it out of here and on to e-mail where it belongs.

>But unless anyone is living as a hermit, compeltely cut off from outside
>influence and benefits,  I would claim that they have formed a social
>contract ala' Adam Smith..  the question lies not with the concept of sociatal
>interdependance, but on the appropriate amount.

and *you* have determined that the amount that i (i'm not going to be so
presumtious as to try and speak for any one else here) have does not
fit your bill? if another wants what i have let them work toward it,
just like i have and continue to do. i am willing to help, but i am not
willing to *give* to those who have surrendered. why should i??

>>btw someone else just jumped into this newsgroup (recently) just like you 
>>did, and not that long ago. they also tried to do the same as you, so 
>>get your head out of the clouds, and consider what you are typing 
>>*before* you send it.

>My dear bill,   I have been a member of this newsgroup for well over 
>two years.  I don't post often, and seldom as controversially as I did
>this last time.  But even so, please note that primacy doesn't 
>neccesarily imply ascendancy in reason or value.

so sorry. i did not relize that you've been here. but i was not trying to
say that first here gets primacy, what i thought (i see i was wrong)
was that you were one of those folk who jumps in here periodocically
spouts off some wild crap and then wonders why they get picked on.
re see the past thread on weedeaters and greenhouses.

>But I would much rather have my head in the white fluffy clouds, than
>in the tight, constrictive warm brown place you seem to have wedged
>your head :)  (I do hope that the allusion isn't lost on you)

tsk tsk tsk. i had hoped for better from you. well at least you kept
it clean. hmmm or are you talking about what i may do with my so?
if you are then thats none of your business!

>And I do consider what I type before I send it.  I even use my brain
>when I consider it.   Now, run off and dig up a few grubs and bang the

then start considering *it*. i always dig up the grub as they tend to eat 
my vegetables, and i prefer digging them up to chemically razing my fields.

>pretty rocks together,  and do try to evolve.  Its hard work,  but

i do that when i maitain my road, you remember, the one i built.
evolve? well the planet is not ready for the next stage of development imo.
yes trying to be as self suffecient is somewhat hard work, but i enjoy it.

>worth it.

have a pleasent day, and do try and get out of the city more often.
oh heres a thought, go visit tricia, she seems to be a nice person,
a little naieve about country living, but learning. i'll bet she'll
make nice neighbors.

bill pociengel

--
llbi locgeenpi " i'm a little confused right now"