From: v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Why? (was Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER)
Date: 9 Jan 93 02:45:00 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan8.183413.15280@ra.royalroads.ca>, mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes...
>In article <C0I3v7.82E@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff) writes:

>|> Then why didn't he create only those who would
>|> eventually "choose" to worship him with their Free Will?  If you take your

>He did not prepackage us 
>saying that these 100 people I will make "saved" and these 1000 will be 
>"unsaved".  He said "I will make these 1100 people and they will make their 
>own choice".  God
>being who is can look into the future and see who will be saved and not.

Listen.  The nature of omniscience is to know the consequences of one's actions
before they're even taken, correct?  Then why'd god even decide to mess with the
ones that his omniscience told him would be damned for all eternity because 
of their free will?  In the scenario I'm suggesting, God realizes that by
giving humans free will, some will decide "against" and some will decide "for."
So why toss those "against" votes in the Lake of Fire?  It'd be oh so much 
easier (and much less cruel) to not even let their souls be generated in 
the first place.  And think of the heating costs that would be saved!

[on why god doesn't appeal to our senses]

>Appeal to our senses?  God is all around us.  

Let me let you in on something.  I disagree.  Why doesn't god make himself
known to those who doubt?  As I said in one post, if Jesus whisked 
supernaturally from city to city giving live interviews on all of the major
networks and gave a decent solution of the particle/wave tendencies of 
light, I'd be pretty impressed.  And if my soul lies in the balance (and 
god is omnipotent), why not?  

>His handiwork is all the physical
>things we see, hear, feel and touch all around us.  Man cannot even begin to 
>comprehend the physical bonds that make us what we are.  God has breathed life
>into each and everyone of us and lives in each and every one of us.  God is not
>hiding.  Some of us choose not to see Him. 

I am simply unimpressed by the Argument from Design.  By claiming there is 
order in the universe, all you can imply that there is order in the universe.
You haven't explained how order by necessity implies design.  Why can't it 
arise from a natural process?   (To boot, if structure implies design, how
would you explain god's structure?  By claiming this, god must have been 
created, too)

And once again I see the "choose not to see him" notion.  Here, you're admitting
that god chooses to show himself to those who choose to see him.  I promise
you that if jesus popped into my apartment and clubbed me with a 2x4, I'd 
have a rough time choosing not to see him (at least while I was conscious).  

[on his earlier claim that some choose not to see him and my taking offense]

>I was voicing my own opinion, if you'll read more carefully what I wrote.

Okay, I concede that you weren't specifically saying this about me.  That said,
how do you explain my extreme doubt in god's existence?

>judgement rests with Him who is worthy to judge.  I am a sinner.  I am hardly
>worthy to judge another and I try not to.  

I'm glad to hear that.  It's frustrating talking to those who judge first and
ask questions later.

>Thank you for your response.

And thanks for yours.  

******************************************************************************
For God so loved the world that He gave Man Free Will and then got pissed when
we didn't meet his arbitrary standards.  Oh, and he had his Son offed when he
realized how impossible those standards were.  -- Michael 4:23
******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.atheism