From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: Going to Somalia
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:40:50 GMT

In article <1gbeiqINNdin@CATHY.NA.CS.YALE.EDU>, yarvin@cs (Norman Yarvin) writes:
>jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:
>>>>  I just wish the hatred and violence would be
>>>>targeted at the right target, ie. people like you, instead of any
>>>>random U.S. citizen.  Perhaps if enough of people like you were
>>>>killed, the rest would start doing something about the reasons.
>
>You know, I wonder if Jyrki realizes that he is saying violent harm should
>be done to me for expressing my beliefs.  That he is expressing his dislike
>for freedom of speech.  That he is saying the beliefs of people like myself
>should be changed not by persuasion, but by persecuting us, nay, killing us,
>until we decide we were wrong.

I am saying no such thing.  First, let's take my comment in context:

------begin quote-------
In article <1g17rkINN3gq@CATHY.NA.CS.YALE.EDU>, yarvin@cs (Norman Yarvin) writes:
>If I were the praying type, I would prefer to pray that anyone who shoots at
>our troops will meet a quick death, so as to be a good example to all the
>other meatballs thinking of trying the same thing.

It is comments like this that make it dangerous for U.S. citizens to
travel around the world.  I just wish the hatred and violence would be
targeted at the right target, ie. people like you, instead of any
random U.S. citizen.  Perhaps if enough of people like you were
killed, the rest would start doing something about the reasons.

//Jyrki
------end quote--------------

Norman Yarvin is saying that Somalian people should be quickly killed
just for shooting at U.S. troops - which are there to keep peace, I
hear.  Hardly sounds like a mission of peace to take an army into a
place and then shoot and kill anyone who offers resistance to the army
for any reason.  Some shooting is expected, and it hardly makes sense
from any viewpoint to kill all the shooters.

All I'm saying that I've heard of violence towards U.S. citizens
peacefully traveling around the world, and while I do not agree with
the violence I can understand some of the motivations for it, and
think that if the violance exists it should at least be targetted at
the right people, ie. people like Norman Yarvin who think that it is
OK for U.S. troops to go anywhere for anyreason whatsoever and shoot
anyone who opposes them.

>In brief, he is a fascist.  He will no doubt protest mightily, but it is
>true nevertheless.

Nothing mighty needed here.

>>I think it's this 'us' business, as if we were different, as if our needs
>>should always have priority, as if being an American placed one at the right
>>hand of God.
>
>I will hand that question right back to you.  Every other nation acts to
>further its own interests; what is different about us that we should not?
>You talk about freedom, but there has never been any freedom between
>nations, only individual freedoms within a nation.

If "us" here means U.S. government, the difference is that it is more
hypocritical than most governments and tends to be more aggressive and
more violent in it's action than most.  Not to mention that the
propaganda system seems to be more effective than in most countries,
so many of the citizens really appear to believe that all is for the
"good of humanity", for God, for "family values" or whatever the
current worshipped deity happens to be.

//Jyrki