From: dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Living in a State of Siege
Date: 18 Dec 1992 23:17:05 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: redondo.sw.stratus.com

In article <168C1CB92.SURGDM@mizzou1.missouri.edu>, Diane writes:
> In article <1992Dec18.184824.10383@rat.csc.calpoly.edu>
> dgross@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:
>  
> >        "We men" are surrounded by violence from our circumcision in infancy
> >(no anaesthesia, thank you) to being bullied in elementary school; from trying
> >out for the football team in high school to registering for the draft; from
> >being several times more likely than our sisters to be murdered to watching
> >boxing on television; from visiting Arlington National Cemetery to running our
> >fingers along the Vietnam War Memorial.
> >
> Just a few questions/answers:
>  
> 1) Who are the major proponents of circumcision?
> - Doctors, the mojority of which are still men.

Citations please?  In many cases this is a religious issue.  Oh, I forgot -
these are patriarchal religions, so it's a moot point.

> 2) Who does the majority of bullying in school?
> - Boys

Who reinforces their socialized roles of toughness?
- girls/women

> 3) Who tries out for football teams?
> - boys/ men

See my response to #2

> 4) Who legislated draft registration?
> - legislative bodies which are comprised overwhelmingly of men

Who voted for these legislators?
- men and women

> 5) Who murders the most men?
> - Men

Are men who are the victims of violence deserving of it purely because
they happen to be the same gender?
- Apparently so.

> 6) Who the hell forces you to watch boxing on television?
> - Big Clue: You. Are you a man? 'Nuff said.

See my response to #3

> 7) Who killed the men in Arlington Cemetary?
> - Men

See my response to #4
  
> 8) Who sent our brothers/fathers/husbands to Viet Nam?
> - Men

See my response to #4

> Are you seeing a trend here? If there's a problem with violence, it looks
> suspiciously like a male-problem that women are supposed to just put up with,
> because we may not make up the largest segment of victims. But unfortunately,
> women are victims, and primarily victims of men. If there is a problem with
> male violence, maybe you can start doing something about it instead of just
> running your mouth about how terrible it is.

He didn't say women are supposed to just put up with it.  He was objecting
to the whole social model which says that violence to women is worse than
violence to men.  I believe that much of what is wrong with violent men is
aggravated by a socialized role model of tough male behavior.  Much of this
programming is encouraged by girls/women in early life.  And no, you can't
take the cop-out that because you (supposedly) didn't perpetuate this, that
it doesn't happen.  You never grew up as a boy, so how would you know?
Secondly, your comment about doing something about it could use some
amplification.  Do you mean personally?  Legally?  What?  I can appreciate
your frustration and/or anger, but it find it somewhat hypocritical that when
a man posts this kind of response, more than a few net.women hold this up as
yet more proof that net.men are insensitive boors who drive women out of
a newsgroup by their hostility; yet when a woman posts such, she is given
kudos for her "SUPERB" posting.

> You seem to be angry that women
> would dare to usurp whatever fear you claim to be living with. Deal with it.

How fascinating that you can read Dave's mind.  Ever consider a sideline
as a psychic?

> We have dealt with it, are dealing with it, and we're sick of it. You're
> going to have to get your sympathy from somewhere else.

Good for you.  I assume this gives me a similar leeway such that if a
woman (Phyllis Schlafly) opposes a woman's right to abortion, I can blow
off womens' complaints about not having these rights by telling them that
a large percentage (admittedly not an overwhelming majority, but more than
a token) of pro-lifers are women, so they should deal with it?
  
> Diane
> If you're not part of the cure, you're part of the problem. [ ]

-- 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Dan S.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism