From: paulf@w6yx (Paul Flaherty)
Subject: Re: Discussion
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:12:18 GMT

Jay.Townsend@f3.n346.z1.spk.wa.us (Jay Townsend) writes:

>Perhaps I am missing something here. I have said several times that I am not
>totally opposed to Paul's plan.  However, if he continues to argue that Packet
>and other digital modes are like repeaters I might change my mind.

I guess I'd have to say that you're missing the distinction between 
equivalance and analogy.  I'm not claiming that the two are equivalent;
rather, that FM repeaters are the best analogy in the existing amateur
domain.  Every new technology brings with it questions about regulation, and
the best we can do in such circumstances is to look for analogies in
existing systems.

The imporant part of the analogy is that both UAA links and FM repeaters are
fixed frequency automatic devices.  The problems surrounding UAA lie in the
fact that they are mixed in with other operations, and as you've no doubt
observed, the operations conflict.  Thus our goal should be to reduce or
remove that conflict, and the best analogy in this case is coordination
of FM repeaters.

>First, the current method that most HF packet is transfered is not through a
>digipeater (which as someone else related isn't like a repeater anyway) but
>rather station A sends to B who later relays to C.  If it worked as well as a
>Digi it would be much more effective.

Here is an example of my point above.  The analogy with respect to repeaters
is in the area of fixed channel operation, not in repeating per se.  As to
how well message store-and-forward networks work, I'd suggest that you have
a look at the one you're using this instant -- Fidonet -- as an example of
just how such a service can be done.

>Second, packet (for which 99% of this proposal of Paul's is aimed) required
>wide data channel separation.  It is true that the signal isn't all that wide
>but you might note the "normal" separation of 2 Khz channels in all of the
>current HF spectrum being utilized for Packet.

First of all, "packet" is one of several existing UAA technologies.  Nothing
in my proposal specifies 300 baud AFSK AX.25 transmission.  Period.

Secondly, you're repeating an obvious falsehood from the Digital Committee's
report.  300 baud AFSK AX.25 *does not* require 2000 Hz of bandwidth.  For
references, see the CCIR recommendations which I quoted earlier.  If you have
any references which indicate otherwise, post them.  Otherwise this argument
is an obvious strawman.

>Fourthly, I opposed totally the concept of seperation by license class.

That proposal was dropped long ago in favor of a representative approach.

>Last I would change the channelization and let this group go anywhere in the 3
>WARC bands. They would not be restricted to any freq's.  I would also publicize
>the authorized calls on a regular basis.  In addition I would support the
>current semi-automatic proposal that the ARRL's Digital Committee has suggested
>for all.

If you support coordination, then you support channelization, since the latter
is a necessary condition of the former.  What you've proposed is even more
restrictive than the ARRL proposal, since it would be limited to Attended
Automatic Autoforwarding, and then only on the WARC bands.  And as I've
said before, AAA is not acceptable for the most part because of the long
delays it introduces.  It's fine for feeder operations, but not for trunks,
which should be automated as much as possible so that they may be counted on
in time of urgent need.

The existing mass of VHF BBS operations, connected by VHF and HF links, 
have demonstrated the potential for UAA operation.  Future operations will
likely support USENET links (a ham.* hierarchy is in the final planning
stages here in the Bay Area), giving amateurs the same email, remote file
copy, and newsreading capabilities of USENET.  All of this is impractical
and pointless without UAA on HF.

--
-=Paul Flaherty, N9FZX/5W1JX  |"Anyway, nothing can beat Good Old American
->paulf@Stanford.EDU          | Know - How." -- Harry Canyon, _Heavy Metal_
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy