HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:14:14 EDT
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: morals

I thank Richard for the precisification. I return the favor.

>Posted on 28 Aug 1992 at 14:53:40 by SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET

> > Like it or not, homosexuality is perversion.  Homosexuals should never be
> > allowed custody of a child. (are we becoming friends yet?)
> >
> > ---Robert
>
> >>        Before making comments, I would like to express this argument
> >>in logical form.  Please tell me if I am mistaken in expressing the

Logical form deleted.

> >>                                      Richard A. Fyfe
> >>                                      rf35@umail.umd.edu

> Rather than box myself in and take a broadside, we'll play this out on a
> "for instance" basis.  I stand by "homosexuals should not be allowed to
>  adopt".  Pick any justification you like.

Notice what's going on here.

Robert refuses to give any justification of his position, because then
he would be "boxed in."

If you make only unjustified, bald assertions, and never provide any
reasons or argument, you have fewer premises to defend. Of course,
if you refuse to defend anything, it doesn't much matter.

Robert asks Richard to pick any justification he likes. My bet is that
Richard thinks there IS no justification of Robert's position. That's
certainly what I think. But Robert is hoping that Richard can save
his sorry butt.

Dream on,

Jamie
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 13:42:44 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: What is family values?

Gee, fred, how dare you turn this into a serious discussion?? :)

>What does "family values" mean to you and which party comes closest to
>representing your views on family values?

I don't know which party comes closest.  But here are some thoughts.  I
believe in a strong work ethic; the problem I see is that hard work, etc.,
don't necessarily pay off anymore.  I believe in tolerance and individual
rights -- so I support any party that will support legalizing homosexual
marriage.  I believe in policies and systems that provide support systems
for those of us trying to improve ourselves and raise kids on limited
incomes -- so I'd like to see realistic plans for increasing the
availability of quality, affordable child care (and no, the much-touted tax
credit for child care doesn't cut it).  I believe in high quality public
education -- I'm not sure either party has much to brag about here,
especially if they're bragging about school choice.  Finally (for now, at
least), I believe in leaving enough intact biological systems in place to
support future generations.  I give the Democrats an edge here -- not
because I've heard anything particulary sensible from them (I haven't read
Gore's book), but because I certainly don't like what I've seen and heard
from the Republicans.

How's that for starters?
Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:47:24 -0400
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Rape; violation, sex or whatever...

 *** Resending note of 09/01/92 10:17

 > This society has lost all semblance of decency, morality and compassion.  The
 > sooner someone flushes this toilet the better!
 > ---Robert

 >>For five points of extra credit, explain how one can decently, morally and
 >>compassionately "flush this toilet," taking as a given that one believes
 >>"strongly" in the value of human life.

 >>Or is it just the unborn that have value?

 >>-other Andy

 Didn't you know?  You've won.  I'm convinced there's nothing wrong with
 abortion, suicide or euthanasia.  Are you in charge of the funny kool-aid?
 ---Robert
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:38:06 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: morals

> >        Actually, you were already "boxed in," Robert.  I suspect that
> >the inadequacy of this response is apparent to everybody but you.

> I doubt it.
> ---Robert

  Ask around, big guy.

                        -Tim
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:27:56 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      More response from j.b.

Here is the portion of Buchanan's speech at the Republican
National Convention, which leads me to believe that he and
people like him would abridge the rights of homosexuals:

        The agenda that Clinton & Clinton
        would impose on America -- abortion-on-demand, a litmus test for the
        Supreme Court, homosexual rights, discrimination against religious
        schools, women in combat units -- that's change, all right.  That's not
        the kind of change America needs.  It's not the kind of change America
        wants.  And it is not the kind of change we can abide in a nation that
        we still call God's country.

Maybe this isn't explicit enough for anyone else to get
the same impression I got, but the tone of voice and
the quality of his speech when he said this made me feel
that he thinks homosexuals should maybe even be put in jail.
(Yes this is reading stuff into his speech, but that was
the militant impression he gave.)

I just have a very hard time with bigotry and discrimination of
any sort.  On an individual and personal basis, if someone wants
to be bigoted, that is his/her right.  I don't have to like that
person or think very highly of her/him.  On a national, professional,
business, et al basis, this is intolerable.

I often feel that some people cloak bigotry and prejudice behind
religion(I am not comparing anyone on this list to the following,
but the following do exist).  For example think of the Aryan Nation.

j.b.
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 09:49:49 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: Tenez la gauche

Dunstan:
>For the record, the reason we drive on the left is so that when my
>carriage passed yours on the highway, my postillion had his sword hand
>nearest to yours should he try some dirty tricks. So we're right and
>you're wrong. Nyah.

And, by extension, the reason we drive on the right is so that, when your
carriage passes mine, I am tacitly offering no threat to you.  It's a
gesture of peace, really.  Nyah.  :) :)

Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:13:32 CDT
From:         Sue Clark <SACLARK@UNMCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Boing

Good Afternoon:

> I can't wait to see Sue Clark's explanation.

Explain what?  Polls?  Polls that are about as stable as a rollercoaster
ride!  Polls that say one day Bush is only 5% behind and then say he is
16% behind!  The path of Hurricane Andrew is more predictable than what path
each days polls will be.  And besides Clinton is NOT in front of Bush by the
same margin he was before the Republican convention, that was 30%.  Liberals
dream to much.

All I did was post what was on TV from  CBS on the morning news.  I didn't
gloat about it, but then I would never gloat on a rollercoaster, you might
get sick to much from so much up and down motion.

As for the 'ordinary person'...what do you expect...an answer that says she
has changed?  Get real.  She still knows the difference between the Republicans
that *WERE NOT* laughing at her values and the Democrats representatives that
were.  Her vote counts too.

So there is your answer, and nothing has changed.  Bet you couldn't wait for
that.

Sue Clark
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Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 11:51:12 -0700
From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Nattering Nabobs

>Bush sent help *as soon as* the governor of Florida *requested* it.
>He could not legally do so before then.

According to an official in the Florida Democrat party, EVERY type of
aid was in place and swinging into action when the wind stopped, every
type EXCEPT military troops, who are a minor part of the overall
activity.

The last time a president sent troops into a state without the
governor's request was during the civil rights wars.  Bush didn't
break that precedent; he waited for Florida's Governor to request
troops in addition to the other aid.

If FEMA had blown it, there'd be a real Bush issue here.

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:00:44 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      parallel 32

Hi, y'all:
About this no-fly zone stuff that's going on . . . one thing I *haven't*
read, seen, or heard on the news or elsewhere is whether or not something
new happened recently to trigger the new SC actions.  Has anyone else?  The
problem I've having is that I don't understand why this has become such a
pressing issue *at this time*.  I mean, I thought Hussein had been doing a
number on the Shi'ites for quite some time.  Did we get some new evidence
of rights violations?  Has this been in the works for a long time, and only
now come to fruition?

Help!
Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:47:00 EST
From:         Tyrone Slothrop <199561011@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Youthful punks

sure, toddddd, a lot of countries have/had  mandatory military service:
the soviet union, yugoslavia, to name a few.  don't you think that
we in the us should have more sense than to copy these countries?

brni
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 10:53:28 EDT
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tenez la gauche

>From:         Dunstan_Vavasour <dunstan@GEC-EPL.CO.UK>

>In my morning paper I read that, after Barbera's husband's
>unsuccessful trip to Japan last year to try to help the US auto
>industry sell cars there that GM have come up with an idea which might
>help. They are going to try putting the steering wheel on the right.
>Wow. How many Americans would consider driving right hand drive cars ?

Hm. GM profits were positive this quarter for the first time in a while.

But your logic czar is wary of positing causal connections.

Jamie
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:44:32 -0400
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET

 *** Resending note of 08/26/92 11:11

 >Wow!  Hurricane Andrew must have been stronger than thought...somehow
 >the lines have gotten crossed and now we're receiving traffic
 from CHRISTIA and BELIEF-L here on POLITICS!

 Strange weather we're having, isn't it?  A sign of the times perhaps?

 ---Robert
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 02:11:47 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Rape; violation, sex or whatever...

VMS:

All right.  I guess I have to say something now.  First, I don't know
who posted all the psychological stuff (most of which I agree with),
but it wasn't me.

Travis didn't say that rape isn't a violation; he was making a rhetorical
point using rape and abortion as parallel situations in which to
demonstrate situational ethics.

Val, you are right.  Rape is violence and domination.  It is about domination
and humiliation and power.  There is a tangible power dynamic present that
both people feel and both operate within.  Those who are posting on this
subject without any knowledge of it (except what they learned from books)
are *way* out of line, and abysmally ignorant.  I hope it never happens
to anyone they know, because the impressions they have will make them the
last people who will ever be told it has happened.

That's *it.*  I am *not* going to talk about this, because this list is
a safe haven for cruelty and intellectual arrogance, not emotional
honesty.  Val, I greatly respect your decision to post your experience,
and I'm very very sorry that it happened to you.  And, I am sorry, but the
level of elitist insensitivity here prohibits me from doing the same.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 10:00:58 EDT
From:         Evelyn <R3EJD@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: falling off the culturally elite pedestal

I guess I'm not part of the cultural elite:  not only have I read Zen and
the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, I have the Handbook for it.

To make this politics oriented:  Has anyone else read the Aug. 31
edition of the National Review?  It's coming down very hard on Bush.
It even mentioned the Republicans for Clinton movement.

Evelyn Duncan
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:19:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: RE:Re: did i send the wrong stuff?

>>Robert,
>>        You didn't really have to repeat the contents of the personal
>>message on the list. A yes/no kind of answer was enough.
>>                                                Gilbert

>Gilbert,

>       You're right, of course.

>       But I wasn't sure whether she was talking about *that* private
>post or the one about her collection of Michael Bolton 8x10 glossies.

>=============================
>Robert Weiss
>psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu


hmmmm- are you guys fighting over me?
winner gets all the lime jello and whipped cream he can handle ;).

-linda
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:34:00 EST
From:         YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET
Subject:      U.S Military Intervention

Currently I am researching whether U.S Military intervention in the internal
affairs of other countries is justified. I would be grateful to the list if you
could share your thoughts on the matter or perhaps reccomend some books, article
s, docs.
Thank You
YONI@BROWNCOG
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:49:21 GMT
From:         james p mcbride <BRIDEC92@IRLEARN.UCD.IE>
              26 Aug 1992 15:14:55 EDT from <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

On Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:14:55 EDT K=A*T said:
>
>From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
>
>> .......................................................  Bush, on the other
>> hand, IMO would sell his mother if it was expedient for his political
> aspirations.
>
>> ---Robert
>
>Could that be termed "voodoo politics?"
>
>--KAT :-)

I thought it was agreed as part of the manifesto in Houston.

james p mc bride
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 11:40:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Tenez la gauche

oh dunstan,

forgot one other point about driving post.

*nyah nyah*

linda
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Original_To:  POL
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:43:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      things are not going well...

and i am not very happy about it.
but before i begin....

brni says HI!  his computer's broken or something.

anyway, the convention was boring what little i saw. nothing new. who does their
hair? did they have a psychotic hairdresser come in and do things to those poor
people?
has dan rather had a complete mental collapse? just wondering...
hey liese, i saw one of the 7 african americans you mentioned...
dan quayle thinks there are too many lawyers...he's right but it should be
spelled TWO since he included himself and his wife.
i guess king george really does care abt. the environment...biodegradable
confetti....cool. but what about the plastic baloons and all the hot air?

today is payday and my bills total to $548 more than what i get. but i suppose
that's my own fault for having the wrong values by denying my essential female
nature.

my thumb hurts. doctor says he thinks i have severe tendonitis. the x-ray
tech. said it looked broken. the nurse said it might be calcium deposits due
to the fact that i severed the tendon 8 years ago while cutting up vegies for
salad....which probably has something to do with my essential female nature.

BUT, i still have to cater a party saturday night and i can't hold onto anything
cause my thumb hurts, so jeff said he'd tape up my thumb so i could at least
keep it somewhat braced and hopefully not end up paying for a bunch of dry
cleaning bills.
AND EVERYTIME I TELL SOMEBODY MY THUMB HURTS, THEY LAUGH!
and its not funny - really!!
i mean, hell, i have to get my kids to open my beer bottles, now they think they
have me over the proverbial beer barrel. and i don't even polka anymore.

and to -jimbo the self-appointed czar for a day.... you scum.

....end of bitch

 -linda  (and i do NOT have pms)
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 11:20:08 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: morals

> Like it or not, homosexuality is perversion.  Homosexuals should never be
> allowed custody of a child. (are we becoming friends yet?)

This is your opinion.  I happen to be of the opinion
that people who make opinionated statements in such
a way as to imply that they are some sort of universal
truth are perverted.

Json
> ---Robert
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:29:23 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: State Polls

"Careful about local polls?"

Boy, you got *that* right!  Our local rag has this habit during the
State of the Union address.  They go out to a local bar where the
tv is on and ask about 6 people what they thought of the speech.

The answers generally go like this:  "Well, I wasn't really paying
attention to most of it, but I (like/don't like) the President
anyway, so I thought it was (good/bad/okay/fascist/boring/stupid/
inspiring/strong)."

Then the newpaper uses this stunning information to decide what
percentage of the people in town thought what.

Of course, CNN uses telephones for the same purpose.  :-)

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:00:06 -0400
From:         Rick George <RIGEORGE@VASSAR.BITNET>
Subject:      Ross Perot

Yesterday, Perot supporters turned in 91,085 signatures to get his name
on the New York State ballot in November.  Only 15,000 were required and
the Perot total is the largest number that any candidate has ever turned
in to the NYS Board of Elections.

According to the AP, Perot is now on the ballots of 35 states and petitions
have been submitted (but not certified) in ten other states.

Still going...

...Rick
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From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Bill in Buffalo
Date: 26 Aug 92 04:29:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Just a brief item about Governor Clinton's bus capade to Buffalo.

Clinton was supposed to be in Buffalo at 5:30. Sunday in Buffalo was 
the hottest day of the year (up until that time (Monday was hotter)).
Bill finally showed up to speak at 8:30. So, after keeping 10,000 
people dehydrating in the sun for three hours, Bill decided to talk 
about... I am not making this up... Health Care. You have to give the 
guy points for chutzpah.

The paper reported that he was delayed for 45 minutes in Chautauqua, 
while the Clintons and Gores strolled the grounds of the Chautauqua 
Institution and ate ice cream. Double chutzpah.

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: jwales@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (jimmy donal wales)
Subject: Re: my last word on this EVER
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 17:43:21 GMT

In the stupidity sweepstakes, I was pulling hard for Robert.  But
unless he comes up with a couple more real whoppers, I'm going to
have to cast my vote for Travis.  Take a look at this!

>I do not believe that
>raping a woman is a violation of their bodies. 

Didja know that I dropped in on Clemson a couple of weeks ago?  My
wife was with me, and she walked into a grocery store unattended.
Had I known about Travis then, I would have gone with her, as protection.

>Divorces should be illegal except in extreme circumstances.

Why?

>-Travis

Warning: snide ad hominem follows

You know, my general impression of Clemson was that it was a
marginally ugly campus with mediocre students.  That big fountain
is o.k., although the general lack of upkeep makes the place look
like the set from some post-apocalyptic movie.

It seems that I got it all right, except for the part about the
students being 'mediocre'.  I know at least one who doesn't
even qualify for that.

--Jimbo

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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:21:46 -0400
From:         "Robert sprg0002@tulsajc.bitnet" <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET>
Subject:      Order restored

 *** Resending note of 08/24/92 17:43

 >From Jamie
 >Mistress Kerry, god does not give us rules of logic. God is bound
 >by rules of logic. Cf. St. Thomas. (You need this one to defend
 >against the Problem of Evil, so said Thomas.)

 Jamie,

 "G"od is not bound by anything but your personal (lack of) faith.

 ---Robert
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