From: John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Insults
Date: 26 Aug 92 19:50:51 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Duke University Medical Center

In article <l9ncn2INNct6@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
writes:
>In article <4871@news.duke.edu> John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu writes:
>> In article <l9mjuqINN96v@mizar.usc.edu> 
>> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>>
>> John Graves writes:
>
>Correct that to "John Graves writes all sorts of touchy-feely

Touchy-feely?  Expressing views on beliefs is touchy-feely?

>stuff about how we should love the homophobe and hate homophobia
>before concluding with":

While I certainly didn't say this, it is not far from what I believe in.  I do
believe that it is virtually impossible to grow up in this society without
absorbing some of the externalized homophobia.  To that extent I think we can
love the homophobe, or in other words, we can love ourselves, our families, our
friends, and those who disagree with us.  I think that we can work against
homophobia, both internalized and external.  Do I hate homophobia?  You Betcha!
 But I'm not going to let that hate get in the way of doing what I can to
convert persons from homophobes to homosexual accepting and even affirmative
beings. 

>
>> >> Explanation and education, not insult and ostracism should be the 
>> >> order of the day.

For someone who feels that all parts of a posting should be quoted, I'm
surprised that you left off the following preface to the above sentence:

 I believe
that I must demand that I not be oppressed and even fight vigorously against
oppression, but  [explanation and education, not insult and ostracism should be
the order of the day.]

I certainly believe that I cannot leave the quest for sexual freedom to others.
 It is something that I demand, that I work for, and that I encourage others to
work for.  


>> >Fuck off, asshole.
>
>> I believe it is better to be inclusive, civilized, pleasant, and caring than
>> exclusive, angry, self-righteous, blaming, and rude.  
>
>Yes, well, I believe it is better to think before giving
>advice that can quite literally get someone killed.

How would this advice get someone killed?  Are you claiming that one should not
be out in order to protect themselves from murderous homophobes?

>
>> I believe it is better to reach out even in the face of oppression.
>
>You counsel reaching out *to* the oppressor.

Yes, in the face of oppression and to the oppressor as well as to the
oppressed.

>
>> I believe it is better to love than to hate.
>
>In the best of all possible worlds, yes.  We don't live there,
>and it's a waste of my time to pretend to love those whom
>I hate.

Hate takes so much more time and energy than love.  If you take the position
that we cannot change society's and individual people's homophobia, and if it
is obvious that we are changing those attitudes, then hate would still be a
waste of time and energy.  
>
>[...]
>>    but I do not believe that I do my cause or that of other gay men,
>> bisexuals, Lesbians or other oppressed sexual minority (or majority - as 
>> women are oppressed) any good by resorting to name calling or other 
>> activities designed to separate us into the correct and the incorrect.  
>
>And I see no reason to pretend that the incorrect are anything 
>*but* incorrect.

The correct are often not correct. We all make mistakes and we can all learn
from our mistakes.  What is seen as correct changes. More and more persons are
seeing that discrimination is incorrect.  

>> If you wish to not take any responsibility for making the world a better 
>> place, you could not have stated it any better than by rejecting education 
>> and explanation.
>
>Thank you, O teacher.  Listen, you can continue kissing ass, but 
>please don't kiss ass in my name.
>
>Arne
>

We are all teachers.  Everyone who has the opportunity to observe us or speak
with us learns from us.  As life would have it, I have been called by a
spiritual organization as a teacher and preacher.  It is my job.  But I don't
speak for them, and I don't speak for you.  I speak for myself as part of a
tradition which values individuals, including members of sexual minorities. 
You also are a teacher.  You can teach hate if you like.  I'd rather not, and I
think you might not either if you thought there were better ways.  Most of us
would rather not be burdened by oppression or by the hate it generates.  

John Allan Graves
Unitarian Universalist Minister