HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)
Subject: Re: The problem with India 
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:50:48 GMT

=================================
 esti@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>Now, to move this discussion back to India... what *does* the Indian
>contitution look like?  In what ways is it similar to and different
>from the American constitution?  Are there ways in which the British
>influence on the Indian form of government have particularly helped or
>hindered India in the long run, in your view?

 The Indian constitution was based on the British constitution.
 One interesting thing about its origin relates to Lalaji. He argued,
 and for sometime succeeded, in getting the "right to property" as
 one of the constitutional rights. Property right gave the individual
 the right to his/her property - to own, to use and to dispose his/her
 property as he/she wishes. This right was later suspended. Socialism became
 a greater ideal to strive for. Consequently, private banks/industries
 were nationalised. (1970s for example saw a wave of bank nationalisations). 
 The govt even found it constitutionally valid to take over companies owned
 by private families like Tata etc. In case of Tata, it didn't succeed -
 there was employee strike against govt takeover !!! 

 The executive and legislative powers center in the same place - parliament.
 In effect, this implies that the prime minister is the ultimate power
 center/broker - with both executive and legislative powers. He/she can
 therefore amend the constitution and implement according to his/her
 wishes/fears (if his/her party has/enjoys 2/3 majority in the parliament).
 The president is a figure head (like the Queen) - proposed
 and appointed by the prime minister (parliament and states). He/she enjoys the
 right to return any bill/law to parliament and upper house - but thats it.
 The executive power is not with the president and he/she can be easily
 over-ridden. The executive power (prime minister) has no term limits..........

 The prime minister has a big say in who gets the party ticket for
 elections. In opposition parties, the hoping-to-be prime minister has
 a big say.

 Well, any other readers who can add to/correct all this ?

 I do think that concentrating executive and legislative power in the same
 place is too dangerous. Easy drift to socialism/communism/misuse/more
 govt./what-have-you. Such a constitution hinders productivity/performance/
 growth/prosperity. Citizens electing the executive power separate from
 the legislative power is the right thing to do. Furthermore, term limits
 is a very productive restraint. The basic rights and govt (mis)policies like
 nationalisation finally determine where the economy goes; and these also
 determine where do the entrepreneurs go/migrate.

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
From: panwar@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Ramesh Panwar)
Subject: History education (was The problem with India)
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 19:07:13 GMT

In article <7669@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov writes:

>|> Now, to move this discussion back to India... what *does* the Indian
>|> contitution look like?  In what ways is it similar to and different
>|> from the American constitution?  Are there ways in which the British
>|> influence on the Indian form of government have particularly helped or
>|> hindered India in the long run, in your view?
>
>Since I'm an American, I'd plead ignorance here and frankly am only
>nominally interested in the Indian constitution. How many IAs out
>there really know much about Indian history? I know a heck of a lot
>more about European (particularly Western) history than Indian.

So, is it good or bad or irrelevant that you know more about Norse and
Viking history than Indian history? This is not a flame but rather a
solicitation of opinions of typical Americans of Indian descent on
the matter of selective historical education in America.
 
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: History education (was The problem with India)
Date: 28 Dec 92 14:49:40 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <1992Dec24.190713.13519@cs.ucla.edu>, panwar@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Ramesh Panwar) writes:
|> From: panwar@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Ramesh Panwar)
|> Subject: History education (was The problem with India)
|> Date: 24 Dec 92 19:07:13 GMT
|> 
|> In article <7669@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov writes:
|> 
|> >
|> >Since I'm an American, I'd plead ignorance here and frankly am only
|> >nominally interested in the Indian constitution. How many IAs out
|> >there really know much about Indian history? I know a heck of a lot
|> >more about European (particularly Western) history than Indian.
|> 
|> So, is it good or bad or irrelevant that you know more about Norse and
|> Viking history than Indian history? This is not a flame but rather a
|> solicitation of opinions of typical Americans of Indian descent on
|> the matter of selective historical education in America.

I think its quite important and interesting to learn the history of my
country, America. Its important because it aids me in understanding our
society. Its interesting because the places and names are familiar.

Your point about the school system being Eurocentric is well taken. I 
agree that history education needs to be revamped to reflect the current
America and World. I would say though that certain areas should be 
highlighted, such as Japan. Indian history is not that relevant to me, 
but interesting nevertheless.

Ron
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Speaking of Parties...
Date: 30 Dec 92 15:18:32 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

I'm throwing a housewarming party on Friday Jan 8th, at my
new place in Northern VA (13 miles west of DC).

If anyone is interested in coming, let me know and I'll
send you directions. I have enough floor space for out of
towners, and inebriated folk.

Ron
From: vagarwal@dis9002.shearson.com (Virendra Agarwal)
Subject: Re: being asian-indian/american
Reply-To: vagarwal@tardis.shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:10:44 GMT

In article <1hlkg1INN2tb@bigboote.WPI.EDU> rangok@wpi.WPI.EDU (Rangaswamy Keshavan) writes:
Path: shearson.com!uunet!noc.near.net!bigboote.WPI.EDU!wpi.WPI.EDU!rangok
   From: rangok@wpi.WPI.EDU (Rangaswamy Keshavan)
   Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
   Date: 28 Dec 1992 01:15:45 GMT
   Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
   Lines: 57
   NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

>   For all people who are first generation immigrants or sons and daughters of
>   immigrants (I fit into both, because I grew up here, but was born in India and
>   lived there for my first 5 years, which is supposed to be very formative, as I
>   am seeing with my 3 year old daughter now) there is a crisis that goes on inside
>   about defining ones identity.  Where do we fit in?  Are we Americans?  Now there
>   are enough Indians in the USA to make it a true ethnic group, and not a formless
>   minority.  Not true when I was growing up.  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may be NATURALIZED or BORN citizens of United States which gives all legal 
rights to be an American but "European American" still consider you an "INDIAN". 
What I am trying to convey is : If you are European , you can assume citizenship of
any country you like immidiately and be accepted as citizen of that country.
If a European steps on U.S. land , he/she is assumed to be American, if steps on
Australia is Australian, if steps on South Africa is South African (If there is
Gold - Europeans are willing to become AFRICANS). 

Non-Europeans maintain their citizenship of their origin while "Europeans" change
their citizenship like lizards change their colors and get accepted.
No matter how much you try to convince your fellow European American friends that you
are an American,British,Australian....by virtue of birth or otherwise. They will
only laugh at you in their hearts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
----- Good Luck 
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Virendra Agarwal
vagarwal@shearson.com
212-464-2151
Lehman Brothers
388 Greenwich st.(9th Flr.)
NewYork, NY 10013
---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Translate Bengali poem.....Sukanta Bhattarcharya
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:37:48 GMT

O great life

O Great Life, it's no longer a matter of verse.
Let tough, severe prose prevail,
Erasing the grace of measure,
The lilt of the lyric gone stale.
Let the hammer of prose
Relentlessly ring on the anvil.
There's no need for the tenderness of poetry.
Poetry, as of now, you are on holiday.
In this regin of hunger,
The earth is full of prose.
Even the full moon seems a half-burned flat bread.


 - Sukanta Bhattacharya

"1926-1947....A lyricist of force, passionately interested in
political and social issues of the times, Sukanta inhis all too brief
a life showed a remakable poetic range.  He was a Marxist, but his
concern for what is human seems to transcend ideology....from
_Collected Works of Sukanta Bhattacharya_, Calcutta 1967"

(translated by Ron D.K. Banerjee)
-- 
i thank you God for most this amazing
day:  for the leaping greenly spirits of the trees
and a blue true dream of sky; and for everything
which is natural which is infinite which is yes		 - e.e.cummings
From: loca@netcom.com (John Hoag)
Subject: Re: being asian-indian/american
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 06:26:35 GMT

vagarwal@dis9002.shearson.com (Virendra Agarwal) writes:

> You may be NATURALIZED or BORN citizens of United States which gives all
> legal rights to be an American but "European American" still consider you
> an "INDIAN".  What I am trying to convey is : If you are European , you
> can assume citizenship of any country you like immidiately and be accepted
> as citizen of that country.  If a European steps on U.S. land , he/she is
> assumed to be American, if steps on Australia is Australian, if steps on
> South Africa is South African (If there is Gold - Europeans are willing to
> become AFRICANS).
> 
> Non-Europeans maintain their citizenship of their origin while "Europeans"
> change their citizenship like lizards change their colors and get
> accepted.  No matter how much you try to convince your fellow European
> American friends that you are an American,British,Australian....by virtue
> of birth or otherwise. They will only laugh at you in their hearts.
> 
> ----- Good Luck -- Virendra

Them's hard words, Virendra.  You must've run across quite a few ignorant
European Americans in your travels, which I'll be the first to agree, is
not hard to do.  But be sure to leave some room in there for exceptions,
even if you know they're relatively rare.  They count, too.

Ever since I was about 20 (I'm 41 now), I've wanted to go to India.  Maybe
even move there.  I'd have to see how things go.  But I've never in my
wildest dreams imagined that Indians would accept me as an Indian.  Why
should they?  I'm clearly a European.  We're talking race, here, are we
not?  Races do exist.  The important thing, to me, is that people of  
different races respect each other's differences.  They don't have to
pretend that differences don't exist.  The differences are just the tip,
the commonality is the iceberg.  

But respect is the ideal, sad to say, not so much the rule in everyday
life.  And I'm afraid that's true in many cultures.  I'm sure it's hard
not feeling accepted in a country that is dominantly of another culture
than one's own.  I can imagine feeling that way in India.  But what I look
for is individuals who are really pretty much all-there, awake,
compassionate, lively, thoughtful, intelligent...  There are people like
that everywhere.  They may not be in the majority, but they come in every
culture.

But India... What can I say?  It's a land steeped in my religion.  Gotta
go there at some point in this life.  I hope folks are nice.  :-)

	-- John Hoag (loca@netcom.com)

Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Let's meet Jan 2 (Re: Preeti's Party....comments
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:40:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.160352.28016@ctp.com>, pghol@ctp.com (Preeti Anissa Gholap) writes:
> 
> I was pleased to see that both acuai "regulars"
> and "read-only" members dropped by.
> We had Mehul "I-can't-sit-down!" Sanghvi, 
> Kalpana "top-secret" Subramanium, Navin
> "Mr. Haavahd" Saxena -- all local. 
> We also had Satyen "Faludi-toting-physicist" 
> Baindur from Maryland, a guest appearance by 
> Paul "I'm-really-not-from-MI" Estin 
> from Michigan, and of course, the
> gorgeous Ms. Mohanraj (Amirthi) from Chicago
> via CT via London via ? :)
> 
> If there was anything unusual about the group,
> in "real time" v/s electronic interaction,
> it was the lack of disagreement -- everyone had
> (more or less) the same, amicable POV. (Then again,
> the beer and wine just may have had something
> to do with that) -- so, my vote for most missed guest 
> is Alok ;) 

Sorry folks,

We had to go to Maryland for Amita to meet some of her relatives 
in USA. We subsequently went to Washington D.C., had a picture taken 
in front of the White House, spent some time with Thomas
Jeffersen in the famous memorial etc. On the way back, we stopped
over in Atlantic city and came out even (no gain, no loss) after
a 4 hour debut. It was a fun time for us too.

You all are invited on Jan 2, Saturday, if you can make it to
our place. Let's say 4-10 pm. There is no problem with respect to 
parking etc. and there are always food and drinks available at our home.
Should you need to stay, let us know in advance.

Alok & Amita

1168 Tiffany Ln
Lakewood, NJ

(908) 905-8163

P.S. - Take exit 88 on Garden State Parkway. For further directions
call or email to us in advance.
From: mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: East Indian vs. Asian Indian
Date: 2 Jan 1993 01:28:56 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: locusts.berkeley.edu


===============================================================
===============================================================

In article <1ht08rINNms1@agate.berkeley.edu> Manish Vij writes:
>I'm going to write them and say
>that East Indian implies the same importance given to the West
>Indies.

I didnt understand the line above... but in general, the
response i have to this silly issue is that
there IS no such country called "East India", and since
we are NOT "East Indian", the press, and others ought
to drop the term.

Also, "East Indian", to me, smacks of the infamous
"East India Company" which as you may know, had the
dubious distinction of being one of the very few
private companies that was responsible for colonizing
an entire sub-continent. Hearing the term "East Indian"
makes me feel like the Western, especially English,
press wants to rub those 200 yrs in our faces continually :(

(Yes I know, the alternative "India" isnt exactly
an indigenous (sp?)  name either, but its a lot more
acceptable than East Indian.) I also prefer
South Asian over Asian Indian. Then if someone asks
"what part of South Asia?" you can always specify
the country.

I guess I should have posted this to the group,
but i hit "R" instead..so feel free to summarize
or copy this verbatim to the group.
==================================================================

Followups to pghol@ctp.com.

==================================================================
-- 
"You cannot be president of the U.S. if you don't have faith.  Remember
Lincoln, going to his knees in times of trial and the Civil War and all
that stuff.  You can't be.  And we are blessed.  So don't feel sorry for --
don't cry for me, Argentina."   -- President Bush and his keen analytical mind
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: East Indian vs. Asian Indian
Date: 30 Dec 1992 20:19:39 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandstorm.berkeley.edu

Whenever I hear the term East Indian, I immediately begin
thinking of Indian geography.  My mental eye searches the eastern
coastline of the Indian cartography before I realize it's just the
misnomer that began with Columbus' grand error.

We're often called East Indians to distinguish us from the West
Indies and from Native Americans.  The local newspaper just repeated
this term in an article on the opening of a first-run Indian
movie theater in Fremont, CA.  I'm going to write them and say
that East Indian implies the same importance given to the West
Indies.  Frankly, I'd much rather be called Indian.  It's much
shorter, more descriptive, and most accurate.  If it weren't for
Columbus' navigational goof-up, and that of an extraordinary sort,
then Asian Indian would never have been necessary.

So how about it, net.folks: East Indian or Asian Indian?

Manish
-- 
"You cannot be president of the U.S. if you don't have faith.  Remember
Lincoln, going to his knees in times of trial and the Civil War and all
that stuff.  You can't be.  And we are blessed.  So don't feel sorry for --
don't cry for me, Argentina."   -- President Bush and his keen analytical mind
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Re: East Indian vs. Asian Indian
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:58:55 GMT

Well, considering that I'm actually Sri Lankan, and a) it's too much
trouble to explain that to people who have no clue where SL is, and b)
mostly I'm trying to explain why I don't speak spanish even though I
look hispanic, I'll settle for:

South Asian, as opposed to East Asian.

I don't know about you, but the cultures throughout S. Asia seems
similar enough to me, that for the purposes of definition to a
Westerner, South Asian is fairly clear.

 - Amirthi

-- 
i thank you God for most this amazing
day:  for the leaping greenly spirits of the trees
and a blue true dream of sky; and for everything
which is natural which is infinite which is yes		 - e.e.cummings
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: who're you calling an american? :(
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:16:17 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.140201.14231@umiami.ir.miami.edu>, dpereira@umiami.ir.miami.edu writes:
> Sounds like this is getting to be a battleground for desi and ABCD clowns from
> AT&T and not IIT!

You are wrong ! It is the christmas party time :)

Alok
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)
Subject: So whats in a constitution.......?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:15:20 GMT

================================
 esti@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Paul A. Estin) wrote:
>
>|> Not the Constitution itself, no.  (Otherwise, why would they have
>|> needed to amend the Constitution to outlaw slavery?)  But the fact
>|> that many people believed in the basic principles that were behind the
>|> Constitution-- "all men are created equal" and all that stuff in the
>|> Declaration of Independence-- is part of the reason the slaves were
>|> frees.  Those principles go a long way towards understanding why a lot
>|> of evils seem to get stamped out eventually, sooner (in my view) than
>|> if the U.S. *weren't* based on some fundamentally sound principles of
>|> liberty, equality, and democracy. 

 I agree.

 hira@cme.nist.gov comments:
>There are plenty of evils in america that have *not* been stamped out. 
>To paraphrase Gil Scott-Heron, the constitution is but a noble piece of
>paper. I don't believe that it has all that much influence on people, 
>and more importantly their actions. It certainly has done nothing to
>enable access to equal education for everyone. 

 Should a constitution enable equal education for everyone?
 IMHO, no. Constitution should protect me from you; you from me;
 me from the majority.... etc. etc.... But, it should not protect
 me from myself or you from yourself.

 Education is the individual's responsibility; and not mine/yours/constitution.
 
 "Equal education" is a meaningless, albiet demagogic, phrase. Education is
 not something one gets, or not something that can be given/distributed. 
 Education is something which an individual works for. The four walls of 
 a university (ivy league or otherwise) is not what makes "education." 
 Its all in the mind, the effort, the attitude. The evil of ignorance, 
 is therefore, not due to constitutional problems or lack of opportunity.
 It is in negligence/irresponsibility. And, that is where the focus needs to
 be - the individual should be self-responsible.

 More rat race for Grades/Degrees/Union cards - is all this "Stamp out 
 this Evil" - would achieve. Thats not "equal education." 
 
 Slavery was wrong in the spirit of the constitution. 
 So was/is discrimination based on sex/race/etc. 

 Unequal education, gymnastics..... aren't "evils to be stamped out."
 Some like "Aristotle's Metaphysics under street lights" and some like
 "Hare Krishna under street lights." Every one to his/her own.
 Life goes on. As it should.

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
ps: Stamp out the unconstitutional income tax. Spending money on porsche
    is so much more fun and sensible.
    Are we still in acuai :?)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: pghol@ctp.com (Preeti Anissa Gholap)
Subject: Re: Preeti's Party....comments
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:03:52 GMT

More stuff about the acuai party on the 27th:

Well, it was supposed to be lunch, but people 
stayed till 11pm...so either they had no homes
to go to, or else they were having too much fun
(i certainly did!) -- naturally, I prefer to
think the latter is true  :)

Just wanted to thank you all for turning up
with yummy goodies (both alcoholic and non- !)
and, more importantly, with your sparkling 
wit and sunny personalities :)
And I wanted to thank Satyen for proposing
this very good idea in the first place, 
and Mehul for helping organize it. 

I was pleased to see that both acuai "regulars"
and "read-only" members dropped by.
We had Mehul "I-can't-sit-down!" Sanghvi, 
Kalpana "top-secret" Subramanium, Navin
"Mr. Haavahd" Saxena -- all local. 
We also had Satyen "Faludi-toting-physicist" 
Baindur from Maryland, a guest appearance by 
Paul "I'm-really-not-from-MI" Estin 
from Michigan, and of course, the
gorgeous Ms. Mohanraj (Amirthi) from Chicago
via CT via London via ? :)

If there was anything unusual about the group,
in "real time" v/s electronic interaction,
it was the lack of disagreement -- everyone had
(more or less) the same, amicable POV. (Then again,
the beer and wine just may have had something
to do with that) -- so, my vote for most missed guest 
is Alok ;) 
(Sorry,  Manish and Tapesh, you guys came
in a close second)

Here's to more acuai parties!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Preeti Anissa Gholap ^ CTP Inc. ^ 304 Vassar St. ^ Cambridge MA 02139 USA ^
^ pghol@ctp.com        ^          ^ (617)374-9800  ^                        ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian