HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
From: briand@anasaz (Brian Douglass)
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:33:32 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Aug22.175856.6893@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.172229.8035@acuson.com> miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:
>
>>Might China have become as fragmented by contending groups in the
>>2nd century as they were in the early 20th?  Could the Romans
>>have found some puppets able to raise armies on their behalf?
>
>Certainly ! The Han empire, in fact, split up 220 AD in three kingdoms; Wei, 
>Shu and Wu. Wu later conquered the three others, becoming the Zin empire, 
>which lasted till 420 AD. This in turn spilt into northern and southern states,
>both of which had a number of political changes before the whole China was re-
>unified as the Sui empire (590-620), which was overthrown by Tang dynasty.
>Tang lasted until 900 when it collapsed and the state fell into an interregnum,
>known as the Five Dynasties and Ten Independent States, before China was unif-
>ied again under the Sung dynasty.
>
>One can just imagine the opportunities a Macchiavellian politician like Caesar
>or someone similar would have had in that country. Seems like the Chinese have
>only two forms of rulership: dictatorship or anarchy... :-)

Yes, but how would the Chinese have responded to an invading power that was
not racially asian?  The Chinese fighting amongst themselves for power is
one thing, but against invading Europeans et al?  The most a Caesar could
have hoped was a luke warm alliance.  Vassalage would have been out of the
question.

>
>>- Michael Goldman
>
>  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
>  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
>  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
>  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++


-- 
"... For I have sworn upon the alter of god, eternal hostility against
every form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
Brian Douglass		briand@anasazi.com 	602-870-3330 X657
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis
Date:         Thu, 03 Sep 92 10:37:20 CST
From:         C05705DA@WUVMD
To:           NETNEWS@WUVMD
Subject:         real McCoy
Newsgroups:   soc.history

Was there really a man named McCoy who drove the first cattle drive
out of Texas?  And if so, where did he take them to, Kansas?
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:50:09 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <JMC.92Sep1220147@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
> My conjecture is that adopting a colonialist policy is one more case of
> Japanese imitation of the West.  As a new colonial power, they may
> have been especially imitating Germany.  The racist rationalizations
> were an adaptation to their own circumstances of Western racist
> rationalizations.
> 
> Consider that Japan had isolated itself for 250 years, and during
> that period had too little contact with foreigners of any kind
> for significant racism to survive in any layer of the population.
> --
> John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305

While not strictly "racism," the treatment of the *eta* class 
by the Japanese is certainly quite similar.  At one time, the *eta*
may have been racially distinct from the Japanese (at least the
Japanese wanted to believe so), but there's no evidence that this
was true at the time the *eta* were pushed into a low caste --
roughly when Bhuddism made work involving slaughter of animals
beyond the pale.  See Hane's book on modern Japan, _Peasants,
Outlaws, ?_.  (I used it last semester, found it very valuable,
but titles with three nouns in them all start to blend together
in my brain).

Does anyone know anything about Japanese treatment of the Ainu,
who were definitely racially distinct?


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re:         Pilgrams
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:12:12 GMT

In article   <92248.075248C05705DA@wuvmd.wustl.edu>,         C05705DA@WUVMD writes:
> Does anybody know the name of the Indian nation or tribe in particular
> that first met the pilgrams?

The Wampanoag Indians; their sachem was Massasoit. Many sources provide
descriptions of the encounter and subsequent relations, but surely one of
the best for combining scholarly attention to evidence with "readability"
must be Angus Calder, "Revolutionary Empire: The Rise of the English-
Speaking Empires from the Fifteenth Century to the 1780s." (NY, 1981).
See esp. pp. 159-60. He suggests (p. 160) that Massasoit welcomed the
Pilgrims as allies out of concern for the ambitions of the Narragansett
Indians to the west of the Wampanoag.

Olaf Janzen
Department of History
Sir Wilfred Grenfell College
Corner Brook, Newfoundland


 frims.xhr
From: miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman )
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Misconceptions similar to Richard III
Date: 25 Aug 92 14:56:08 GMT
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California

cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch (Mark Cohen) writes:

>The play was written during the reign of James I (and VI of Scotland) and
>suggested that he was descended from Banquo the nobleman who is
>treacherously murdered by Macbeth's thugs (Macbeth's dream of seven kings).
>This may also be poetic licence and would indicate that Shakespeare's grasp of
>who paid the bills was pretty good.

	I was told in a class on Shakespeare that the play was originally
	performed at a Royal Palace as an entertainment for the King and
	an ambassador (?) from strategic ally, making politics more important
	than history.  This also explains its relative brevity, since the
	intended audience presumably had other things to do that evening.

>Personally I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of Shakespeare's plays
>were tailored to gain royal approval. At that time and until quite recently
>censorship of the theater was by the Lord Chancellor and at the turn of the
>17th century I'd guess the penalty for upsetting the monarch was some what
>more severe than at present. The Tempest for example can be looked at as a
>belief in the divine right of kings (rulers) a concept that was beginning
>to be seriously questioned in England of Shakespear's time and was possibly
>one of the bones of contention between parliament and Charles I forty years
>later.

	But then you have Julius Caesar as glorifying Republican virtues,
	and portraying a "monarch" as a vain and superstitious man.  It
	follows Plutarch, I believe, but the choice of subject matter is
	still pretty interesting, given the times.

	- Michael Goldman
-- 
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have
exhausted all other alternatives." - Abba Eban
	Disclaimer:  All views are solely my own & not the views of Acuson.
	<sun!sono!miklg>  or  [miklg@acuson.com]
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Subject: Re: Face lifting process (Goodby MUTLU, hello Argic)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:41:30 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Sep1.004901.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> traynor@fnalf.fnal.gov writes:

+>>>Serdar Argic

+>If this netwar continues at this pace, soc.history will be truly overwhelmed.
+>What about a soc.history.anatolia-armenia?  

	Its unclear if Argic is really something new or if he was a former
multu who now has the courage to post under his own name.  Either way, I dont
think that Multu traffic is increasing.


	The problem with the creation of subgroups is that there is no way
to get a response out of Multu to know if he would respect such a subgroup
and stop posting to the other five groups.
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:30:17 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <CB.92Aug20124937@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
> I've been reading the history of indigenous Americans (Indians, native
> Americans; whatever term we should use).  The tragic stage of the Ghost
> Dance and the Wounded Knee massacre is well-known, but I was interested
> to read that a very similar religious movement swept the tribes of the
> then-West (the areas east of the Mississippi) around 1815 when the main
> Indian leader was Tecumseh.  It was the same deal: do this magic dance
> and the whites will disappear and we'll get our land back.  These
> parallel developments indicate to me that it was the Indians' habits of
> thinking, even more than the technological gap, that doomed them.  Are
> there other historical examples resembling these two stages?
> 
> Chris Brewster

The Boxer Rebellion was based on a rather similar idea, that the
moral purity of the Boxers would protect them from bullets.

Didn't something similar happen with the Mahdi's revolt against the
British in the Sudan?  _Social History of the Machine Gun_ mentions
that charge after charge of the Mahdi's warriors -- armed with
spears -- were cut down with a variety of machine guns, with no
warriors even getting within 150 yards of the British lines.

There is nothing surprising about a society that is losing to a
technologically superior enemy developing an ideology that negates
technological disadvantage.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
From: lambert_l@ab.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Question about Hitler
Date: 28 Aug 92 00:42:47 GMT
Organization: Alderson-Broaddus College

I have a question that I need answered, please.


    My question is:   Did the Russians really find Hitler's remains  and 
if they did, why did they wait 20 years to publish their findings. And if 
they did not find him then what happened to his remains? I heard that the
leader of the Hitler Youth was put in charge of dispossing of his remains.
Is this true?


     Sorry,  I meant several questions


           Lisa, History Major at AB College.
From: aa727@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Johnny Wu)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Origin of last names
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:08:30 GMT
Reply-To: aa727@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Johnny Wu)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


I would like to know if anyone here knows the origin of the last
names:

- Wu (the mouth and sky)
- Rajic
- Chan 

-- 
"I Love you baby, and if it's quite allright, I need you baby,
to run my lonely nights, so if in love with you baby, 
let me love you"
				- Pet Shop Boys
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in the USSR during WW2
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:09:42 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Aug31.164426.16588@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
> msirbu@next6.cs.umr.edu (Mihai Sirbu) quoted this in soc.culture.romanian:
# # RFE/RL Daily Report No. 166, August 31, 1992
# # The Japanese Kyodo News Service on 29 August said that Russian
# # President Boris Yeltsin may formally apologize for the Soviet
# # seizure of 600,000 Japanese World War II prisoners of war when he
# # visits Japan in mid-September.
# 
# So what's to apologize for?  Presumably these were the troops captured in
# Manchuria after eight years of conducting the worst genocide in history?

It's not clear that every Japanese soldier was involved in genocide.
For example, David Bergamini's _Japan's Imperial Conspiracy_ mentions
that at least one sizeable Japanese unit was so sickened by what they
were required to do that they defected to the Soviet Union in the
late 1930s.

# For the Russians to now say *they* were in the wrong is revisionism on a
# scale that makes Irving look tentative.  Or am I missing something?
# 
# --  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,

Were they tried for war crimes?  Or merely held for many years in the
Soviet style?  If they were tried for war crimes, that's a whole
different situation.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Organization: pubs
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:36:55 CDT


I wrote:
 
 > I've been reading the history of indigenous Americans.  The tragic
 > stage of the Ghost Dance and the Wounded Knee massacre is well-known,
 > but I was interested to read that a very similar religious movement
 > swept the tribes of the then-West (the areas east of the Mississippi)
 > around 1815 when the main Indian leader was Tecumseh. ...  Are there
 > other historical examples resembling these two stages?

When I asked for other examples, I should have specified I was
primarily interested in other examples among North American Indians.
The other examples people have mentioned are quite interesting,
however.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: slavery
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Distribution: soc.history
Date: 2 Sep 92 22:14:53

What is the first statement anyone can find that slavery is wrong - and
not just a natural consequence of being conquered?  I believe that in
Britain in the 17th century, it was stated that any slave became free
on entering Britain.  However, the Anti-Slavery Society wasn't
organized until late in the 18th century.  I don't recall Montaigne
every saying explicitly that slavery was immoral.  Did any of the
early Christian writers say so explicitly?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Turkmenistan <==> Turkey relationship?
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:22:40 GMT
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900

In article <1992Aug26.132150.15263@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>traynor@fnalf.fnal.gov wrote:
>> With the breakup of the Soviet empire, a number of new countries have
>> arisen, one of which is names Turkmenistan.  Are the people historically/
>> ethnically/culturally related to the people in Turkey now (it is said that
>> the Turkish origin was in Central Asia), and if so, is there any sort of an
>> irredentist movement occurring for a union with Turkey in this area?
			.
			.
			.
>Incidentally, the Turkish government has been recently making quite
>substantial efforts at making cultural links with the wider Turkic sphere;
>their Ministry of Culture is publishing literature from these areas (though
>more from the nearer parts (Azerbaijan and the Balkans) than Central Asia),
>and Turkish TV covers Azerbaijan all the time.
			.
			.
			.
Jack doubtless writes "cultural" in an expansive sense,
for the Turkish government sometimes makes western head-
lines for ongoing economic initiatives--and reasonably
progressive ones, to my eyes.  I think there now is a
formal Black Sea customs union, and they're working on
one that stretches into Central Asia.  The Turkish
government is plenty excited about setting up joint
ventures with parts of the Soviet disUnion.  Also, I
believe they've offered themselves as some sort of
political tutors, to teach how to run an election, and
that sort of thing.

I avoid posting to soc*turk*, out of concern for
soc.history readers.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:41:44 GMT

In article <11891@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.180605.6076@island.COM>, fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:

>Hmmm.  From what I've read, the Koreans were always regarded as a
>lower class of human by the Japanese.

Well, yes and no. There is good evidence that the Imperial family was 
originally Korean. And there is no doubt that the Korean penninsula has been
a tremendous conduit for art and technology from the continent into Japan.
Then, Hideyoshi attacked Korea (with the intention of conquoring China) and
no doubt the Koreans were looked down upon. The war ended, Tokugawa ended up
in power, and the country was mostly closed off, but apparantly, there was
rather free commerce between Korea and Japan during that time. Then came 
Meiji Japan changed (in response to external factors) rather quickly.
I also undersatnd that for quite a while, there was some intermarriage
between the Korean and Japanese upper class (correct me if I'm wrong).

># attempted to annex Manchuria (again, Asians lived there). Their attacks on 
># the British, French, and Dutch possesions didn't occur until well after those
># nations had their hands full with the Germans. Harldy indicates that the war,
># so far as the Japanese were concerned, had any idealogical aspects beyond
># real politik.

>I think it's a mistake to ignore Japanese attitudes about racial
>superiority.  Without them, the ideological justification for the
>land grab in Asian might have been considerably less effective.

I think it's a matter of deciding first that they needed "buffers" against the
encroaching European powers, then deciding, "Well, what the heck. They're only
Koreans". In any event, I think most of this racial superiority is rather
after-the fact, and not a driving force. After all, they (the Japanese) freely
entered into treaties with white foreign powers against Asian powers when 
they felt it in their interest to do so. When they determined their best
interests lay elsewhere, suddenly they felt a moral obligation to lift the yoke
of white oppression from their Asian brothers.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do.
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Japanese POWs in the USSR during WW2
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:44:26 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

msirbu@next6.cs.umr.edu (Mihai Sirbu) quoted this in soc.culture.romanian:
> RFE/RL Daily Report No. 166, August 31, 1992
> The Japanese Kyodo News Service on 29 August said that Russian
> President Boris Yeltsin may formally apologize for the Soviet
> seizure of 600,000 Japanese World War II prisoners of war when he
> visits Japan in mid-September.

So what's to apologize for?  Presumably these were the troops captured in
Manchuria after eight years of conducting the worst genocide in history?
For the Russians to now say *they* were in the wrong is revisionism on a
scale that makes Irving look tentative.  Or am I missing something?

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<11978@optilink.UUCP> <1992Aug31.165829.3299@island.COM>
	<SMITTIE.92Aug31120453@wren.csulb.edu>
	<JMC.92Sep1220147@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> <Bty1tu.78r@world.std.com>
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:06:55

In article <Bty1tu.78r@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:

   jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:

   >My conjecture is that adopting a colonialist policy is one more case of
   >Japanese imitation of the West.  As a new colonial power, they may
   >have been especially imitating Germany.  The racist rationalizations
   >were an adaptation to their own circumstances of Western racist
   >rationalizations.

   >Consider that Japan had isolated itself for 250 years, and during
   >that period had too little contact with foreigners of any kind
   >for significant racism to survive in any layer of the population.
   >--
   >John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
   >*
   >He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.


   250 years of isolationism is both indicative of and a cause of the 
   strongest kind of racism. The fear/hate of outsiders is reinforced
   by the lack of contact.

   Charlie

   -- 
   *****************************************************************************
   *  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
   *  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
   *  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
The actual rationale for the Japanese isolationism is hard to
determine.  No Japanese has ever been able to point me at any
contemporary documents advocating it.  Everyone I asked says
it had to do with Confucian fears of being corrupted by foreign
ideology, especially by Christianity which had two million
converts in Japan.  I don't recall anything about foreigners
being declared inferior.  It follows by 50 years or so,
a corresponding isolationist policy of the Chinese empire.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: soc.history
From: m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com (Barone)
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in the USSR during WW2
Organization: Raytheon Submarine Signal Division, Portsmouth, RI
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:23:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.164426.16588@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk
(Jack Campin) writes:
> msirbu@next6.cs.umr.edu (Mihai Sirbu) quoted this in soc.culture.romanian:
> > RFE/RL Daily Report No. 166, August 31, 1992
> > The Japanese Kyodo News Service on 29 August said that Russian
> > President Boris Yeltsin may formally apologize for the Soviet
> > seizure of 600,000 Japanese World War II prisoners of war when he
> > visits Japan in mid-September.
> 
> So what's to apologize for?  Presumably these were the troops captured in
> Manchuria after eight years of conducting the worst genocide in history?
> For the Russians to now say *they* were in the wrong is revisionism on a
> scale that makes Irving look tentative.  Or am I missing something?

	I would assume that an apology would be warranted if the POWs
were never released after the war.  Perhaps that's the case.
-- 
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Heroes have an infinite capacity for stupidity.  Thus are legends born!
Newsgroups: soc.history