From: bell@pooh.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Character Detail
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:12:21 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

By the way, Nick, my response to you on rec.games.design was written before I
saw this posting -- the one you're responding to had gotten so old I figured
you weren't going to respond to it.  Vagaries of the net, I guess. 

In article <17421@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>bell@beethoven.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) writes:
>> But you already said you'ld use dice to make the decision for you, so it
>> ISN'T a point allocated character by your definition.  So why would you
>> like it less?

>Part of my objection is that if it's my decision, I'll optimize the character
>in some ways.  I'll avoid characteristics I'd find it easier to not play

Usually such will give compensatory points that make the character more
powerful in other ways.  Strict random generation systems generally only
touch on stats, and I can't see being weak or stupid or clumsy as being
that difficult to play, *unless* you don't get points to compensate.

>choose others to improve the "power" of the character or give him "larger
>than life" personality quirks.

Again, these should only be problems if the point generation system doesn't
do a good job balancing characters.  This happens, but it's a separate
objection. 

>How many GURPS players build a character with
>characteristics that they don't "choose" to have?  :)

I find that there are few characteristics I would never choose unless they
seriously limited the character, in which case the points I receive for taking
that weakness are (in my estimation) insufficient.  Again, that's an issue
of the point system failing to balance, not a problem with point allocation
per se...

>As I stated in a previous message, the two systems are different
>psychologically

Even if you pick up the dice for both?  No point allocator is ever going to
say to you (OK, Dave Nalle probably would, but...) "No, you can't use dice."
In contrast, I can't count the number of GMs who've required that I use
random methods.

>Look at it from a PA'ers viewpoint: would you feel the same about the
>character that you put hours of effort into creating using PA as you would if
>someone gave you exactly the same character that had been generated by a
>computer program?

No, I'd be happier with the latter because I'd saved all that time wasted
generating the character.  In the last game I played in (PBEM), the GM wanted
me to create the character using his points system.  I tried for a week to
get him to create the character for me, since I had a general personality
sketch but didn't fully understand his system, and although it was point-based
it wasn't point-balanced.  The personality is what makes a character, and the
stats and even the skills don't determine that, they just reflect it to an
extent.  No matter how many numbers are on a piece of paper, by far the
majority of the character stays in my head or is reflected in writings about
the character's history.  Are your most memorable characters the ones with
the highest stats, or the ones with the most interesting personalities and
lives?  If it's the former, you might as well being playing computer games --
you're really missing something when it comes to role-playing.

So why, you might ask, do I care about stats at all?  Because if I do have
a character in mind, I want to have the stats to reflect that.  I can't play
a master thief with an average dex.  I can't play a casanova with a 3
charisma.  And yes, I do minimax for the challenge, and have munchkin
tendencies.  *Good* point systems don't frustrate me because there's no
chance of there being a character in the party who's better than me at
everything, so I can check my munchkineering at the door.


Incidentally, I don't feel that GURPS has a truly "good" point allocation
system, because either they don't believe that character balance is the
ultimate goal, or because they keep forgetting it.  Stefan, Loyd, which
do you think it is?

  Andrew Bell
bell@cs.unc.edu