From: bobh@fuji.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Date: 23 Aug 92 20:58:58 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona -- Tucson, AZ

In article <BtE2pu.Iz8.2@cs.cmu.edu> cline+@cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.213427.6180@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> bobh@minaret.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington) writes:
>>
>>IMHO, I think hip belays should go the way of Goldline ropes. Sure, they
  ^^^^
>>were the safest thing going, but belay devices are in general much more
>>reliable. Quang-Tuan Luong is right: people should know how to hip belay,
>>just in case they have to, and I agree with Liz Bradley: a Munter hitch
>>is preferable to a hip belay. But, from some recent postings, I got the impression
>>that some people were still using hip belays as a matter of routine. I
>>think this is foolish.
>
>Where do you get the information that body belays are less reliable
>than device belays?  I have not noticed this in _Accidents in North

Really, it's just my opinion. 

>American Mountaineering_.  My personal experience is opposite: I have
>been dropped once while climbing - and the culprit was using a belay
>device.  I think it is foolish that so many climbers reject hip belays
>or refuse to use them (and thus waste time) when they are appropriate.

I've heard tales regarding climbers being dropped while belayed by both
hip belays and by belay devices, including a leader being dropped about
15m at Donner a few weeks ago because a Grigri was set up wrong. Several
years ago a YMS guide dropped a climber about half the length of the
center route of Reed's Pinnacle when he couldn't hold his hefty second
on a hip belay. I suspect every belay system ever devised has failed at
some time. 

My opinion is that some belay systems are inherently less
reliable than others. Hip belays, because they sometimes inflict
great pain on the belayer and are hard to regain control of if control
is lost, are unreliable. Old timers from the Bay Area may remember
the Sierra Club dynamic belay test, where prospective Rock Climbing
Section members were required to hold a weight (120 lb.?) six times,
three with the right hand, and three with the left. The falls were
15 or 20 feet, through a pulley system set up in a tree, so there
was very little friction in the system. If you passed the test, you
went on to doing the same thing with real climbers on the rock. 
(No wonder they had insurance problems.)   Maybe we need to pit
the hip belay against belay devices with a simialar setup
to actually do some research to see which is really more reliable.

I don't by the arguement that belay devices waste alot of time; I can
yard rope through a tuber pretty fast, and the set up takes about three
seconds. Being fast with the belay depends more on the familarity of
the belayer with the system he's using, rather than on the particular
system in use. In fact, familiarity and experience with the system in
use is also what makes the belay safe and reliable. I don't mean to
suggest otherwise. Use whatever works for you.

Bob Harrington

PS I'll grant that hip belays are better for frozen, icy ropes.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing