HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: talk
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:19:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.1777.23087@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Karen Lee Givon
>
>>According to Israel, a Jew is defined by his or her matrilineal
>>bloodline. Thus a Soviet Jew who is an atheist, and who may have
>>descended from parents or grandparents who are atheists, is still
>>a Jew.
>
> KG> Most of these Soviet Jews did not have a choice in the
> KG> matter.
>
>But Jews also played a major, activist role in the creation of
>the Soviet Union, did they not? Many of them occupied high
>positions in the Soviet regime by choice, not because a gun was
>held at their head.
>
>And many, if not most, of the founders and early leaders of
>Israel, like David Ben-Gurion, were deeply immersed by choice in
>the ideology of atheistic communism or socialism. The goyim
>didn't force them to hold their beliefs; quite the contrary. Many
>of these messianic Marxists tried to ram their beliefs down the
>throats of others.

It's humorous to hear non Jews accuse Jews of ramming beliefs down
someone else's throat, considering that Jews have been killed and
tortured for not following beliefs that have been rammed down their
throats.  

>And yet within the Jewish system of identification, they are
>still considered to be Jews on the basis of their bloodlines. One
>is led inexorably to the conclusion that Jews in significant part
>constitute an ethnic group in the biological sense.

So what?  So we're an ethnic group...big deal.  Is there a problem with
that?  Do you want us to assimilate?  White Christian Americans tend to
expect that of people, don't they?  Reminds me of a high school teacher
I had who said that after 200 years, it's about time the Indians started
acting like Americans.  

I would like to know, however, what biological characteristics
constitute this biological ethnic group, or race, or whatever.  What
biological characteristics do Russian Jews and Ethiopian Jews share,
besides the characteristics that all humans share (bipedal,
opposable thumbs)?  

>In no way would any Christian denomination that I know identify
>as a Christian the offspring of Christian parents who chose the
>path of atheism and Marxism. Christianity is a belief system, not
>an ethnic identification.

And Judaism is not Christianity.  Why are you so obsessed with this?
Did you try to convert and we wouldn't let you because the quota was
filled?

Do you bash Hinduism as well?  No one can convert to Hinduism.  It
simply can't happen.  I've heard that this is also true of the Druze (I
could be wrong about that one).

Keren

>---
>  OLX 3.01 31-2557  lurching from one messianic lamppost to the next
>--
>Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Be careful... The dirty plan...
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 22:47:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.042952.14705@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au  writes:
>In article <C1FKEG.601@imag.fr>, oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:
>|> : 
>|> : 2) Can you give the exact source and text of that speech, and when it
>|> :    was made? If you will not answer, I will have to conclude you
>|> :    invented this. I am waiting for your answer.
>|>   Well, i never heard such a statement from Shamir, but i'm
>|>   certain this idea 
>|>   exists, and it's quite supported by several religious guys.
>|>   Asking for a proof ?. 
>|>   The map of "Eretz Israel" was posted to soc.culture.arabic by a
>|>   Jew (*), and it extended from the Euphrat to the Nile. I have no
>|>   idea about the popularity of such claims, but i wonder about the
>|>   mental helth of those who believe in 
>|>   it. I believe Ariel Sharon has already given such a statement.

>As far as I know, this concept of Israel extending to the Nile and Eupharates
>is something that the Religious figures who are members of the Likude party
>have called for. I beleive it has become part of the Likude party platform.

	You beleive wrongly.  The Likud platform, while endorsing
ideas of a "greater Israel," have never called for a "Nile to
Euphrates" land of Israel.  There is no sign near the Kenneset calling
for such, nor is the Israeli flag representative of the idea.


Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
From: martillo@nero.clearpoint.com (Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: conversion to judaism / Center for Pol
Date: 24 Jan 93 04:14:54 GMT
Organization: Clearpoint Research Corp., Hopkinton Mass.

In article <9301231830.AA10298@igc.apc.org> <Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>> writes:

>It is true that many Israelis don't give a damn for international law,
>U.N. resolutions and agreements signed by Israel. This is however not
>my position. I maintain that international law and Conventions signed by
>the majority of UN members, reflect a good consensus and should be used
>as a yardstick to assess a regime. 

Why would anyone with any intelligence think such a silly thing?

The vast majority of the nations in the UN are barely out of the stone
age and are run by thugs, who aspire one day to be slime and who would
be moving up the evolutionary scale if they were suddenly transformed
into australopithecines.

International law only has use when it accords with US strategic goals
and when it serves as a low-cost means to manipulate subordinate
states and peoples to serve these US strategic goals.

>				    The fact that many states violate
>these conventions does not exonerate Israel.

And by the way, the enshrinement of a concept as a part of Western
International Law does not necessarily mean that the derived law makes
any sense.  As an example, Zoe Baird has been pilloried for violation
of the Simpson-Mazzoli Act, which is a truly stupid law.  The general
public simply has not acquired the awareness to realize that this act
is stupid.  Suppose 100 years ago Zoe Baird had violated the
anti-mescegenation laws and married a Black man.  She would have been
pilloried for that violation as well.  But nowadays the general public
has the awareness to realize that such laws are wrong.

Anyway, the laws relative to moving populations are stupid.  Islamic
Law qua international law considers the movement of populations
completely reasonable.  And to tell the truth, in really stupid places
like Africa, the Middle East, East Asia and Central Asia, separation
of population might be the only way to keep these jack-asses in human
form from slaughtering one-another.

-- 
Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

The article represents noone's opinions other than the author's.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26307 soc.culture.greek:12569 alt.news.macedonia:252
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 20:09:50 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C1HArD.IrM@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> And, to the best of my knoweldge, you cannot find in Greece maps depicting
> Cyprus as part of Greece.  Personally, I have not seen such maps.

Because "tamtams" live in an alternate universe.

Source: Salahi Sonyel, "The Cyprus Conflict", Second Edition, 
        (Nicosia, 1977), p. 121.

Now wait, there is more.


             (Unless this small Turkish Community - forming a part
              of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy
              of Hellenism - is expelled from Cyprus, the duty of
              the heroes of EOKA can never be considered as
              terminated. MAKARIOS, Panayia, 4 September 1962)


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ITERFADA WATCH
Date: 22 Jan 93 22:22:19 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <4662@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>The Inrwefada is a wave of Inter-Arab violence , parallel to the
>intifada against the Jews.
>Bellow find the INTERFADA death toll.
>( Through January 10 1993 )
>
> Killed for "cooperation with the authorities"    769
> killed in internment camps                        43
> killed incidentally in actions against Jews        6
>  TOTAL                                           818

Were did you obtain this information, Gideon?

Killed incidentally?

>We shall overcome     Gideon Ehrlich     ERETZ YISRAEL
    ^^^^^

Bravo!  He can spell!!

Anisa

	"You are talking about the nonsensical
	ravings of a lunatic mind."
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.rights.human
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: The Turkish Cypriots would never forget the attacks and the massacre.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 21:40:51 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C1F8Co.5DC@acsu.buffalo.edu> v999saum@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Varnavas A. Lambrou) writes:

>I was UNLUCKY enough to live and to understand from the eyes of a 6 years old
>child all the "peace" and and "protection" the "peace keeping" Turkish Army
>brought to Cyprus. And you know, I have parents too. And they told me stories
>about the '60s. And I DO BELIEVE THEM.

So who needs all this talk about failure and confusion and frustration?

       29TH ANNIVERSARY OF "BLOODY CHRISTMAS" IN TRNC

On the 29th  anniversary of the Greek  "Bloody Christmas" attacks
which  started on  December 21,  1963, the  Ayvasil Martyrs  were
remembered.

In  a  move to  destroy  the  Turkish  Community on  Cyprus,  the
"Akritas Plan" was  initiated at Christmas-time 29  years ago and
21 Turkish men, women and children were killed.

At  the commemoration  ceremony it  was stated  that the  Turkish
Cypriots would never forget the attacks and the massacre.

NEWSPOT, December 1992


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Strike in the Gulf; Putting pieces together.
Keywords: strike, neuclear, iraq, USA.
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:56:06 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Regarding the latest strike on the Iraq industrial complex, both sides
had different interpretation to the target that was hit:

   IRAQ: It was the most modern industrial complex, 1 mile by 1 mile
         in dimension, with numerous factories within, producing a wide
         spectrum of goods from dies to Folks-Wagen car parts.

   BUSH: It was a neuclear weapons development site (full stop).

From my experience, I have learned not to take any argument before 
weighing it logically and seeing who is most probably closer to the
truth than the other. So let us put the pieces together and see who
is "closer" to the truth.

The thing that strike me the most and make me highly doubtful of Bush's
interpretation to the strike is that if it really was a neuclear
weapons development site then it is highly unlikely (probably
impossible) that *ALL* those buildings (factories) that have been
hit were really used for developing neuclear weapons. If it was true
that Saddam really was developing neuclear weapons there, then he might
be needing one site at the most.

We must be out of our minds if we still think that the scale of
Saddam neuclear weapons development NOW is large enough
to fill an entire industrial complex with several dozen buildings. We
would be even crazier if we believed that with this size, the Israeli
spies did not know about it and did not order Bush to demolish it
two years ago ... We must be crazy to believe Bush's interpretation of
the strike. Bush was not telling us the truth ... We need to know
the truth. Bush was only doing this to force President Clinton into
following his line with Iraq.

The cruise missiles had pin-point accuracy of only a few feet. I have seen
on CNN that the military PLANNED (and succeeded) to hit every single
factory in the complex. This means that Bush thought that Saddam was 
developing neuclear weapons in each and every single building in that
multi-billion dollar industrial complex ... Does it make sense to you ????

--Marwan
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: idfriedm@marconi.uwaterloo.ca (id friedman)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 00:57:31 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.184146.5621@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.1777.23048@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>
>>You mentioned a few converts who are prominent in Israeli life.
>>
>>I still have the impression that converts occupy a small role in
>>the high levels of the Israeli government, the rabbinical
>>establishment, and the American Jewish establishment, for that
>>matter. The power in these institutions is overwhelmingly
>>concentrated in the hands of ethnic Jews.
>
      The entire point is silly. Is the argument that converts aren't
      accepted by Jewish society?? State it clearly and don't ramble.
      If this is your argument, consider the following:   
 
      (1) Like Adam says, the number of converts is small.
      (2) The few converts may have immigrated to Israel and may not
          have the contacts, knowhow, etc.. to get into "establishment"
          positions.
      (3) In general, Judaism and Jews fully accept converts. However,
          some Jews may not fully accept them. ( Just as some Christians,
          Moslims, etc.. don't accept converts).
      (4) How many "converts" are there in the "establishment" in other
          countries???
      (5) An earlier post mentioned something about some people in the
           Knesset being converts.


>	The number of converts to Judaism is small.  Are you suggesting
>that we promote people, iregardless of ability, on the basis that they
>are converted?  No can do for two reasons, one, its disgusting
>tokenism, and two, Halacha prohibits reminding a convert of their
>former status.
>
>	And please tell us, what is an ethnic Jew?
>
>
>
>Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
>wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Ishay
From: seshadri@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:34:06 GMT
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast


-As I said before, a child of a Muslim father is *presumed* to be a Muslim,
-but this is no different from the child of a Christian/Hindu/etc father 
-being *presumed* to be a Christian/Hindu/etc.  A Muslim is *defined* by 
-his/her religious beliefs and practices, not by his/her ancestry.

-Waleed Muhanna

	Waleed, I have a question for you ..

	If what you say is true, why is Salman Rushdie accused of
	apostasy ? As for as I know, he never proclaimed that he
	was a Muslim, yet he is being accused of abandoning it 
	simply because he was born in a Muslim family. What gives ?

						Raghu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26366 soc.culture.greek:12630
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: On Macedonia
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 16:41:34 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C1E2G9.GK5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>>That's not the first thing the Greeks tried to claim that was not theirs. I am
>>referring to the fact that there is no such thing as Greek Philosophy. The 
>>Greeks stole it from the Ancient Egyptians.

> It's getting amuzing now!!!

Well, maybe so. Today those "tamtams" boast about being the descendants
of a great civilization, and the cradle of democracy. Howevers there
are serious doubts in history for both claims.

First of all, several historians and anthropologists have produced
substantial evidence with respect to any connection between 
present-day Greece and ancient Greece. The prominent German
historian Jacop P. Fallmerayer published a treatise in 1830
and made the assertion that during the Middle Ages slavik
tribes poured into Greece and annihilated the entire Greek
population. Truly, can anyone see any resemblance between 
that beacon of ignorance and "paliks", and the ancient Greeks
who created a civilization?

As for democracy, in its entire history Greece has never been
a democracy - except for the last 18 years. 

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26218 rec.arts.books:26205 soc.culture.turkish:14902
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,rec.arts.books,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: hanif
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 23:44:40 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1jrumcINNqrf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:

>>Bildigim kadariyla "hanif" cahiliye devrinde Hz. Ibrahim (as)'a
>>tabii olup, putlari reddedenlere deniyor.

>It is EXTREMELY bad form to print a message in Arabic and not translate 
>for the rest of us.

Ouri-ne. Your inability to distinguish between "Turkish" and "Arabic"
is truly amazing. It is not true, by the way, that mermaids do not
exist. One should wonder whether "perlmanian/visserian/wollian/kerenian"
are for real. As for the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Muslim 
people by the Armenian Government between 1914 and 1920;


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Boycotting American Cars
Keywords: Boycott, Cars
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: na 
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:54:42 GMT

In <C1H6Lu.D9E@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca> khater@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Issam Abu-Khater) writes:

>Salam to All,
>I am forwarding this call by Prof. M. I. Elmasry hopping that it will
>be of benefit for you:

>Please circulate.........
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Forwarded message:
>> From elmasry Tue Jan 26 13:46:45 1993
>> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 13:46:45 -0500
>> From: "M.I. Elmasry" <elmasry>
>> Message-Id: <9301261846.AA12582@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>
>> To: khater
>> Subject: Boycott American Cars 
>> 
>>               D O  N O T  B U Y  A M E R I C A N  C A R S
>> 
>>               PROTEST U.S. DOUBLE-STANDARD FOREIGN POLICY
>> 

I would remind the professor that many of the 'American' cars he
will see around the University of Waterloo are built by Canadian
workers. Workers whose taxes probably pay a goodly portion of
his salary. I wonder what his reaction would be if the Canadian
autoworkers suggested a different boycott;

	DO NOT ALLOW UNIVERSITIES TO EMPLOY ARABS

>..........................End Forwarded Messege.........................
>Issam.

It never ceases to amaze me how people so do love shooting themselves
in the foot :-/

REB

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26402 soc.culture.greek:12670 alt.news.macedonia:317 soc.culture.turkish:15177
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Arguing with Wayne
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Distribution: talk
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:35:25 CST

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23048@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
> To: Josh Backon

		[....]
 
> I still have the impression that converts occupy a small role in
> the high levels of the Israeli government, the rabbinical
> establishment, and the American Jewish establishment, for that
> matter. The power in these institutions is overwhelmingly
> concentrated in the hands of ethnic Jews.


	Note that despite many explicit requests, Wayne still 
	refuses to provide names of converts in any government
	(U.S. or other), and the Church establishment. His way 
	of debating seems to be either to belittle the evidence
	rendered to him (e.g., the case of prominent converts 
	to Judaism) or to ignore it altogether by censoring
	others' posts or by not responding to them.

	To all those who are offended by Wayne's posts, I can 
	only say this: The guy is not here for a constructive 
	debate. Please lower your expectations accordingly. If
	you feel that you must seriously answer some of his
	posts, please direct your reply to the general audience,
	not to him, as expecting him to understand would simply 
	be a waist of energy. 

	Finaly, some people were arguing against Wayne that he
	should criticize Christianity and Islam the way he 
	criticizes Judaism in order for him to be "even handed". 
	Please, none of that. Balancing preversive vies of judaism by 
	perverting Islam and Chritianity is wrong and useless. 
	Let the guy pervert himself into a net joke, the type 
	of the /*mutlu*/ and the ARF, which no one takes seriously.


Noam

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26361 soc.culture.greek:12629