From: alex@fermat.uucp (Alex Gerbessiotis)
Newsgroups: bit.listerv.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,misc.headlines,eunet.politics,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Macedonian World Congress
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:51:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Dec22.195145.16561
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University


>Article 12966 of soc.culture.greek:
>Subject: Macedonian World Congress
>
>
>     Therefore:
>
>   The Claims put forward by Greece that the ancient Macedonians
>were Greeks, that their native language was Greek, and that

Is this a joke or what?
Assuming that it is not...

Either you are out of your mind or you are intentionally lying.
First, they are not claims since there is more than sufficient evidence
to support the truth of such statements.
Unless of course you claim that Herodotos, Plutarchos, Polyvios, Strabo
just to name few ancient writers didn't know what they were writing about.
If you are really interested in what say, Herodotos believed for
Macedonians check his History, Book I,56 or say Book VIII,43.

Below I shall try to give references to works of foreign writers only.

A German historian and  linguist,  O.  Hoffmann, considered  
Macedonians a greek tribe that first lived in the mountains of Pindos 
then moved towards the lands of river Haliakmon and  in  some
unknown time towards the valley of river Axios.

There are some  people who advocate the thesis that the Macedonians
were  not  Greek.  An English archaeologist, St. Casson, observed 
that it was difficult to give a definition of  what  could
be  considered  'hellenic'. If one, according to him, included in
such  a  definition  everything  found  north  or  south  of  the
Korinthos bay (in Peloponnesos, Southern Greece) between the 10th
and 8th century BC, then Macedonia should  be  considered  greek.
The  people,  according to Casson, living in Macedonia were using
the same jewels with those living in  Sparta,  Olympia,  Delphoi,
Aegina,  and  Argos.  This at least proves the close relations of
the people living in these areas (Peloponnesos and Macedonia) in the
first  centuries  of  the 1st millenium BC.

The recent excavations in Vergina and Dion in Macedonia, Greece,
confirm the conclusions of Casson for the remaining centuries.

Now about the language of ancient Macedonians.

Fr. Sturz (in "De Dialecto Macedonica et Alexandrina", 1808) concluded
that the Macedonian tongue was a greek doric dialect. August Flick,
O. Hoffmann, Otto Abel, and Karl Belloch, as well  as
Georg Busolt, Fritz Geyer, Ulrich Wilcken, Helmuth Berve, Gustave
Glotz, P. Roussel, P Pouquet, A Jarde, R  Cohen,  J.  Bury,,  St.
Casson,  W. Heurtley, D. Hogarth, J. de Waele, just to name a few
(non-Greek) historians and archaeologists, shared these views.

Fr. Geyer   showed that the names of macedonian months and festivities 
could not be found anywhere in classic Greece and were archaic  
Greek ones. Furthermore, he  showed the doric origin of the Macedonians
and their language.

Coins and jewels found in Macedonia and dated as early as 480BC
have greek inscriptions.

>Macedonia was a region of Greece are all false. The historical truth
>is that Greece was inhabited by Greeks, Macedonia by Macedonians.

	 :-):-):-):-) :-) Actually Athens was inhabited by Athenians,
	 Thoeba by Thoebans, Macedonia by Macedonians.
	 All of these people belonged to various greek tribes.

>The presence of Greek settlements along the coast of Macedonia which
>Philip II destroyed anyway did not change Macedonia's ethnic

	Why would Macedonia's greek composition  be changed by having
	other Greeks (though of different tribes) living close to Macedonia?

>Greece. The ancients knew where Greece ended and where Macedonia

	Did they? No they didn't. At various times there were
	different opinions. "Hellas" (Greece) had a different meaning
	to Homer, Lycourgos, and later writers.

>began. They believed that Mount Olympus was in Macedonia, Mount
>Parnassus in Greece. Thus the geographer Strabo calls Olympus "the
>highest mountain in Macedonia". It still is.

	Ts ts and i thought it  was in Republic of Skopje:-)
>
>
> 1) The ancient Macedonians were a distinct European people,
>    conscious and proud of their nationality, their customs, their
>    language, and their name. The same applies to their descendants
>    today.

	  Evidence shows otherwise. If you wish to ignore it, it is
	  your right but state it clearly. Macedonians were proud
	  of being a greek tribe, ancient writers acknowledged this.
	  Their language,  to the benefit of future generations and to us,
	  contained many archaic greek words that were not to be found
	  anywhere else in Classic Greece.
>
> 2) The ancient Macedonians regarded the Greeks as neighbours not as
>    kinsmen. The Greeks treated the Macedonians as foreigners
>    ("barbarians") whose native language was Macedonian not Greek.

	Really? Have you read Herodotos? Plutarchos? Polyvios?
>
> 3) Macedonian was never a region of Greece. On the contrary, Greece
>    was often subject to Macedonia. In 1913, Greece and her Balkan

	Macedonia not a region of Greece? When? For example, the term
	Hellas (the equivalent to the Greece your are using) had
	different meanings in different times. In Homeric times Hellas was
	a small region in Thessaly  inhabited by the Myrmidones of Achilles.
	Naturally, Macedonia could never have been part of that Hellas, which
	was a small part of Thessaly. Neither could Athens or Sparta for
	that matter.
	Up to the 1820s(AD) there was no single entity such as
	a Greek state named Greece. The same more or less happened with
	Italy. But this does not mean that there had
	never been any  Greek states/kingdoms prior to that time.

	And "Greece" was subject to Macedonia? Well, i was in need of some more
	Skopjan jokes. Thanks for giving me one more.

>    allies partitioned Macedonia, and if today a portion of
>    Macedonian belongs to Greece, it is by virtue of an illegal
>    partition of the whole and occupation of a part of Macedonia.

	Ouch! Macedonia, the region that today is part of Greece, has 
	always been inhabited by Greeks. Incidentally this region
	coincides with the ancient region called Macedonia.

	Also incidentally what today is claimed to be "Macedonia" that is,
	Macedonia + Republic of Skopje + parts of Bulgaria was  called
	so by some Russians (Ambassador Ignatiev, the chief Russian
	negotiator during this treaty) during the San Stefano Treaty of 1878
	when  Russia and Turkey (after the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish war)
	agreed that this "Macedonia" be part of then Bulgaria. The other
	European powers opposed to this treaty which never came into
	effect. So by virtue of an  agreement that was never ratified between
	Russia and Turkey the lands of Republic of Skopje were
	defined to be part  of an entity called "Macedonia".
>           
>These assertions will be shown to be true in the eyes of history.
>
	History has already shown that your assertions  are totally false.
>
>
>   There is no evidence that prehistoric Macedonia was ever occupied
>by Greeks.
>
	Of course there is not, because it was inhabited by certain
	greek tribes, NOT OCCUPIED by them.
	There is prehistoric evidence for the former. See earlier
	reference to Casson.
	There is no written evidence (up to some time in the
	5th century BC), but you can still draw safe conclusions
	from non-written evidence.

>B.C. in mainly Greece and on the Aegean islands. Archaeological
>finds from Macedonia are meagre and sporadic; scholars believe that
>ancient Macedonia lay beyond the cultural and ethnic borders of
	See reference to Casson. Or to the references in Herodotos
	for details of the movements of various Hellenic tribes.
	There are many archaeological finds in Macedonia. Dion and
	Vergina are two of them related to the periods of the 6th
	century BC and later. There are other excavation sites
	of earlier times. Check proceedings of various Symposia on
	historic and pre-historic Macedonia.

	By the way, if archaeological finds in Macedonia are sporadic
	today blame the Romans for that. When they conquered
	Greece (Macedonia included) they removed thousands of treasures from
	Macedonia and took them to Rome.

>   The ancient Macedonians claimed kinship with the Illyrians,
>Thracians, and the Phrygians, not with the Greeks. In fact, the

	No. Polyvios (VIII 8,9),  among other things wrote that
	Macedonians were using translators in their contacts with
	Illyrians. Macedonians were in constant wars with the Illyrians.
	Macedonians had close contacts with the greek tribes of
	Thessaly and Epeiros. They helped each other when they needed
	to defend their lands from the Illyrian   incursions.
	During the fourth century BC when Illyrians invaded Macedonia
	and occupied for a brief period almost all the lands of the
	Macedonian State it was the combined efforts of Macedonians,
	Thessalians, Epeirotians and the settlers of Chalcidice that drove
	the Illyrians out of Macedonia.

	By the way, Illyrians inhabited  the  western part of the Rep. of
	Skopje. The southern part was inhabited by the Paeonians and
	the northern part (which includes the city of Skopje) by the
	Dardanians. Now how the Skopjans chose to call themselves 
	"Macedonians" it is  an interesting question.
>
>   Ancient Macedonia was home to many tribes and nations. Homer did
>not know the Macedonians by this name. Of the many Macedonia
>peoples, Homer only mentions the Paeones who lives in the heart of
>Macedonia. In the Trojan War, the Paeones joined the besieged

	No, they(Paeones) lived north of Macedonia. And you may
	also realize that in the homeric poem there is no reference
	to Greeks (Hellenes) as a whole (except for the reference to
	Myrmidones and their land, Hellas). If i follow your argument
	this mean that no Greek (and thus Macedonian) took part in the
	actions described in the homeric poems. Go figure!

	It may be true that various (Greek) tribes lived in Macedonia
	sometime in the late 4th century BC. But only a single nation
	(the greek one).

>Trojans, an indication that they were not Greeks. Greek and other
>historians frequently mention the Brygians. Their name derives from
>the Macedonian word 'breg', "hill/mountain". The Brygians were the

Frygians were called these people, not Brygians, as far as i know, but this
does not matter a lot.  Actually their name comes from the Belgian city of
Bruges :-), Bryges (or Fryges) or  Brygians (or Frygians) and
Macedonians were thus Belgians :-), if i follow your claim,
and since Macedonians have been Greek, go figure :-). :-):-) [too many smiles]

If you play with words you can show anything...

>"hillsmen" of Macedonia. Another remarkable people were the
	The Mac- of Macedonia probably comes form the word Makos (mhkos)
	which indicated length. Macedonians in earlier periods were
	also called Maketai and their land was called (Macedonia)  Maketia.
	This support the mac- root of the name.
>Mygdones, who lived in Aegean Macedonia, in Asia Minor, and in Upper
	"Aegean Macedonia". Can you give a reference of the usage of this
	term other than in  Skopjan (and possibly
	Bulgarian) propagandistic  pamphlets?
>
>   Greek migrants came to Macedonia, Thrace, and Illyria after they
>had exhausted the possibilities of settlement in Asia Minor, Italy,

	Really? How many possibilities were there? Wow! 
	They (Greek migrants) must have felt really exhausted by exhausting,
	let alone counting, all possibilities!:-):-)

	Not to mention that Herodotos claimed that some of the
	Macedonians moved to southern Greece (and not the other way around)
	and after crossing Doris and moved to Peloponnesos were then
	called Dorians! [See previous references to Herodotos]

	But I forgot! Herodotos is a "dirty" Greek propagandist who is
	probably a paid agent :-):-):-) of the Greek Government (of 1992)
	in her "unfair propaganda" against the Skopjans who claim such false,
	provocative, idiotic statements. :-):-)
	Herodotos should probably  have read the Skopjan version
	of History. Or he and his behavior are not "politically correct"!
	Shame on him :-):-) [many smiles added]

>famous ancient Greeks went to Macedonia and Thrace in search of
>livelihood or adventure. These included Pythagoras, Euripides,
>Herodotus, and Aristotle's ancestors. However, the Greeks did not

	Many of them were Ionian Greeks. Macedonians were Dorian Greeks
	(or strictly speaking Dorians  descended from Macedonians).

>Philip II (360-366 B.C.) not hired him to be his son's tutor. In any
>case, by the middle of the fourth pre-Christian century, Greek

       	And how and why did the settlers of Chalcidice help Macedonians against
	Illyrians? And how did Alexander manage to find other Greek
	soldiers who reinforced his army in his Asian conquests? Oh
	I forgot his army was European :-) probably Belgian :-)
	if you accept the etymology of Brygians I gave earlier:-):-)
	[[[NOTE: I HAVE NO BAD FEELINGS FOR THE BELGIANS. QUITE THE
		 OPPOSITE. I LIKE THEM. ESPECIALLY THEIR FOOTBALL TEAM. ]]]

>stereotyped the Macedonians as "barbarians" and treated them in the
>same bigoted manner in which they treated all non-Greeks. Herodotus,

	Yes, that's why they allowed them to participate in the Olympic
	games, that is why Athens awarded in 496BC the title of
	"proxenos" to Alexander I (then given only to Greeks and benefactors
	of Athens).
	As for "barbarians" Athenians (Isocrates) once claimed  
	that anyone who was not educated like the Athenians was a 
	barbarian.  Go figure for definitions...

>the Father of History, relates how the Macedonian king Alexander I
>(498-454 B.C.), a Philhellene, that is, "a friend of the Greeks",
>and logically a non-Greek, wanted to take part in the Olympic games.

	If you read Herodotos you will realise that he hadn't any doubts
	on the Greekness of either Alexander I or of Macedonians.
	How come then that Alexander participated in the Olympic Games?
	Or in 496BC Athenians named him "proxenos" that is
	protector of the city (according to the then meaning of the word)
	a life-time title awarded then only to Greek friends of Athens?

	The word Philhellene up to some time in the 1820's
	(AD of course) it was used as an adjective to describe Greeks.
	Adamantios Coraes called Philhellenes many Greeks such as
	the  the (later) first President of the then Greek
	state I. Kapodistrias (he called him "Hellene and Philhellene"),
	and also Alexandros Mavrokordatos. Both of them were Greeks.
	Only later did the word
	was used to include the non-Greek sympathizers of the Greek
	War of Independence.
	
>The Greek athletes protested, saying they would not run with a

	They finally accepted his descent, as well as the greekness
	of the Macedonians who  participated later in The Olympic games.
	In modern Olympic games Women  can not participate unless
	they take a sex-test and prove they are women:-)

>barbarian. The historian Thucydides, himself half barbarian,
	I don't think this is correct.
	Demosthenes's mother was a Skythian (or according to some other
	writers such as Aeschines, his grandmother).
	Aeschines for example wrote, in Against Ctesiphon, 172)
	"and by his mother's side [Demosthenes is] a Scythian, a 
	Greek  speaking  Barbarian".
>considered the Macedonians as barbarians. Demosthenes, the great
>Athenians statesman and orator, spoke of the Macedonia king
	Yes, this one's mother and/or maternal grandmother :-) was Skythian.
	Athenian? :-) Let's say he was half-Athenian half-Skythian or
	semi-barbarian:-)
	Probably he was jealous of Philippos's greek descent:-)
>Philip II as:
>
>        "... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not
>        even a barbarian from any place that can be named with
>        honours, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was
>        never yet possible to buy a decent slave." [Third Phillipic, 31]
>
Wow ! What does this prove? Shame on these greek cities, states, and kingdoms
that didn't offer slaves of decent quality :-):-) and thus did not
provide  Demosthenes with the opportunity to  invest his bribes from
the Persians on slaves there!  Now I know why Demosthenes was so
pished off with Philippos:-)

It  is not  surprising for  Demosthenes --  who spent his
whole life advocating the superiority of Athens  over  the  other
hellenic  states,  even  if  that  required that some Greek city-states
were to be destroyed or  suffer for Athens to remain the
leader of Greece [See, For the Megalopolitans,5] --  to accuse Philippos
the leader of a new Greek super-power of anything.

At the same time another Athenian, Isocrates was asking
Philippos to lead all Greeks in a war against the barbarians, and also reminding
Philippos of his descent from the Temenidae of Argos that is, of his 
(Philippos's) greek descent.

And since President-elect Clinton was accused by President Bush of being a 
'BOZO' what should a future reader of history conclude from that?


>   The Macedonian "barbarian" defeated Greece at the battle of

	Defeated Greece? Wow!  What Greece? The land of the homeric
	Myrmidones?  And Sparta defeated Greece (oops Athens) 70-80
	year earlier? What does this prove?

>        [Greece did not regain its independence until 1827 A.D.]
>
	Ouch! haven't you ever heard of the predominantly greek
	Byzantine empire?

>   Greeks prospered under the Macedonians, but they prospered in

	 And lived happily thereafter:-):-)
>
> * Greece was conquered by Macedonia at the battle of Chaeronea
>   in 338 B.C.

	Ha ha! As much as Greece was conquered by Sparta or ruled
	by Athens.
>
> * Both Macedonia and Greece were annexed by the Romans to their
>   empire after the battle of Pydna in 168 B.C.

	Really? What is your definition of Greece?
>
> * Under the Romans, the Greeks continued to prosper in the Levant,
>   Asia Minor, and Egypt, less so in Greece and not at all in
>   Macedonia. While the Romans did not establish any province by the

	 the Greeks in Macedonia were in constant wars even in Roman times
	 with the Dardanians who inhabited the lands of the Republic
	 of Skopje. Conclusion: We Macedonians can only prosper and live
	 happily only if we can get rid of the inhabitants of the
	 Rep. of SKopje called in ancient times Dardanians, Illyrians
	 and Paeonians(?), today Skopjans. Do you agree with that?

	 But there is some truth in you claims. Macedonians many times
	 in their history sacrificed themselves for the prosperity of
	 the Southern Greeks fighting against the Illyrians, Paeonians,
	 Dardanians in antiquity, and in modern times against various
	 Slavs, and the Communists of Skopje as late as in the 1940s.

>   name of Greece or Hellas, there were two Macedonia's in their
>   Empire: 'Macedonia Prima', known today as the Aegean Macedonia, and

	Where is "Macedonia Prima Donna"?:-):-) 
	"Aegean Macedonia" is a term used by those terrorists who try to
	show that Macedonia, Greece, is 'enslaved', needs to be 'liberated'
	and become part of a whole, the ultimate dream of Skopjan
	propagandists and terrorists.
>
> * In the sixth century, the Paeones, now called Slavs, came back

	Wow! What else am i going to hear? 

>   and captured all of Macedonia from the East Romans, with the
>   was first systematized in the middle of the ninth Christian
>   century by SS. Cyril and Methodius, the apostles of the Slavs who
>   were born in Thessalonica, Solun. The Macedonian language has

	Oh! I thought Thessaloniki, Macedonia:-)

	Actually, if i follow your etymological endeavours, Skopjans
	are Athenians:-):-) Why? Well, the word Solun comes from the name of the
	Athenian legislator Solon :-) Go Skopjans and  claim Athens and not
	Macedonia :-):-):-) At least you can then leave us
	Macedonians in peace and cause headaches to some ignorant
	Athenian politicians:-):-)

>   functioned as the principal literary, liturgical, and colloquial
>   language of Macedonia ever since.

	ts ts The Doric greek Macedonian dialect became a
	Turko-Bulgaro-Greco-Albanian idiom?  Wow :-)!!!

>
>
> * In 1014, the Macedonian Roman (Byzantine) Emperor Basil II
>   defeated Tsar Samuilo and soon annexed Macedonia to his East

	Yeah and Basil was called for that Bulgarslayer!
    	So is Basil a Skopjan? My God, Thanks for the good laugh you gave
	me! By the way, i thought Skopjans claimed that Samuel
	was a Skopjan not the other way around!
	But probably this doesn't fit you now, or someone misread the
	Skopjan propagandistic pamphlets.
	On another matter there are historians who claim that Basil
	was an Armenian.

>   Roman state. Under the Macedonian rules and their successors in
>
> * Macedonian entered this century as a province of the Ottoman
>   Empire, divided among the Solun, Bitola, and Kosovo vilayets.

	Solun is what you call today the city of Thessaloniki called
	so since ancient times. The vilaet was called the Thessaloniki
	vilaet.  Is by any chance Bitola the name of the city of Monastirio?
	When did you change the name of the city?

>   The region was occupied primarily by Macedonians. The census in

	I can provide you with numerous non-greek(turkish, Italian and
	German) origin statistics that show no Skopjans in these vilaets.

> * The Republic of Macedonia was created out of the ashes of the
>   Second World War by Josip Broz Tito, the anti-fascist leader of

	Anti fascist  ? Is this a communist booklet or what, that you
	are quoting? Wake-up ! Communism is dead (except may be in Skopje).

>   Yugoslavia, who recognized the Macedonians as a distinct people
>   with their own nationalist, language, and culture when he created
    		   ^^^^^^^^^^^ ambitions maybe? That was the purpose of Tito.
	He wanted Skopjans to forget that they were Bulgarians.

	And this anti-fascist of yours was also co-responsible
	along with Skopjan and Greek communists for the abduction
	of close to 30,000 Greek children who were transferred to
	Skopje and never saw their parents again. Are these children
	included in the Skopjan population statistics? Probably not.

	But of course! It is politically correct for some countries
	(USA included) to ignore such "details" especially if they were
	directed against Greeks.

>
>   During the reign of Alexander the Great, the Macedonians spoke
>their own native language.
>
	Check previous comments of mine.

>   The question of the use of the Macedonian language was raised by
>Alexander himself during the trial of Philotas, one of his generals
>accused of treason. Alexander said to Philotas:
>
>        our customs in as much abhorrence as our language."
>        [Quintus Curtius Rufus, History of Alexander the Great of
>        Macedon, VI. ix. 34-36]

 This conversation allegedly communicated between Alexandros
 and Filotas never took place.  It  is this  reference  to
 Alexander that made H. Bardon,  publisher of Rufus's works to
 wonder how it was  possible  for  Alexander  to fall in such
 a contradiction and to accuse others of something that he himself
 was fighting for.  Writers such as Arrhianos
 and Plutarchos never described such a dialogue .
 And given that Arrhianos
 based his information on soldiers who fought with

H. Bardon,  French  publisher  of  Rufus's
works   (pub. Belles Lettres vol 1 page 201 note 1) commenting on
the alleged speech of Filotas said that Kurtius Rufus was  accustomed
to rhetoric  artifices and as a result historic truth suffered
in that part of his work.  All in all it can be safely concluded
that  this  passage was more of a product of the rhetoric
talents of Rufus thus attributing to  Filotas  a  speech  Filotas
never gave rather than presenting the actual events.  Writers who
lived well before Rufus and close to the  time  of  the  incident
were not aware of such a speech by Filotas.
Furtherrmore  this passage contains several contradictions 
notwithstanding the one that Filotas was not  capable  of
speaking his mother tongue. Alexander on the other hand, allegedly
accuses Filotas of detesting the macedonian  dialect  but  according
to Filotas's reply the accusation is spelled by Alexander
in the attic rather than the macedonian dialect! This fact alone,
had  this  episode  really happened, could have been used against
Alexander himself as a counter argument and  accusation. 


>
>
>   Like Illyrian and Thracian, ancient Macedonian was not recorded in
>writing. However, on the basis of about a hundred glosses,

	It is recorded in modern Greek. What the Athenian used to
	call  "KESTRAN", macedonians were referring  as "SFYRAINA" (hammer).
	The second word, in the form of the neutral noun "SFYRI" rather
	than the feminine one "SFYRAINA", is used in modern greek.
	The attic "kestran", as far as i know, is not used anymore.

Athenian comedies  used to make fun of the  idioms  and  the  dialects
of  other Greeks like those of Spartans, Boeoteans and  Macedonians.
Some time in the 5th century BC a comedy  enitled
"Pausanias  or  Macedonians?"  written  by  the  Athenian
Strattis was played in Athens. In various parts of this comedy  a
Macedonian  explains  how various  words of the attic dialect are
called in the Macedonian dialect.

It can be inferred from these references that Macedonians spoke a
Doric  greek dialect.  In a work of the ancient writer Athenaios,
one can find samples of the work of Strattis. In an article written
by  A. Koerte quoting Athenaios VII,323b we can find in that
comedy of Strattis the following conversation given in
English (In an article by M.  Sakellariou that appeared in
Macedonia: 4000 years of greek history and civilization)  an
Athenian  asks "sledfish, what do you mean?" and a Macedonian replies
"wha ye Attics ca' a hammer-fush, ma freen" i.e. in my  own
words,  which  i  hope  do  not change the meaning of this phrase
"what you Attics call a hammer-fush, (we call a) freen".

One can appreciate the value of the Macedonian's  reply  for  the
object  under discussion  if he does not  forget that as is clear
from many passages in Aristophanes the attic comedians made their
non-Greeks  speak  broken  Greek  with  an a mixture of barbarian
words (some of them imaginary) while Lacedaemonians,   Boeotians,
Macedonians  and  other  Greeks  spoke  their  own dialects.  The
Macedonian's reply is in good Greek with dialect (ymmes,  sfyraina)
and archaizing elements (kiklhskete). Both YMMES and SFYRAINA
are not attic words but they are Greek.  Therefore  claims   that
Athenians  "hellenized"  Macedonians  seem  to be baseless. It is
also noted that these words were used  by  the  Macedonians  some
time in the 5th century BC that is at least 50 years before their
alleged hellenization.


>Macedonian words noted and explained by Greek writers, some
>place-names from Macedonia, and a few names of individuals, most
>scholars believe that ancient Macedonian was a separate
>Indo-European language. Evidence from phonology indicates that the

	Greek writers? Are you sane? I mostly used non-Greek references.
	The funny thing is that non-Greeks (rather than Greeks) first 
	proved the greekness of Macedonians, their language etc.

>Macedonian language was distinct from Greek and closer to the
>Thracian and Illyrian languages.

	Yeah! That's why Macedonians needed translators in their contacts
	with the Illyrians. And there is no reference whatsoever that
	Macedonians and say Athenians had any kind of language problems
	in their contacts.  It seems that historic evidence contradicts
	this position of yours.

>
>was known abroad as 'Philippos'. The native Macedonian and Thracian
>form of his name was recorded in the name of the Thracian town which
>he has conquered and named 'Pulpudeva', "the city of Philip". In the

	Ha ha ha! Are there naive people who make such claims? And more
	naive one who believe them?
	Yeah and the word Brygians comes from the Belgian city of Bruges! :-)
	And Solun is an Attic word :-)

	And Athens, Georgia, suggests that the greek word AUHNAI (U for THETA)
	is actually of English (American? US?) origin and that US troops
	founded the greek city some millenia ago when they liberated the area
	from those non-greek barbarians called Athenians :-) :-) :-) :-)
	[put as many smiles as you like] This argument of mine (if one
	can call it an argument) is as strong as yours.


>language of its Slavic citizens it is known today as 'Plovdiv'.
>The cosmopolitan form of the city's name is 'Philipopolis',  a
>learned rendering of the native name. Another example of this
>continuity involves the ancient capital of Macedonia, Edessa. The
>Macedonians knew this city as 'Voden' long before linguists

	Voden? Wow! Can you provide any references?  Yet another
	idiotic statement (YAIS).

>Macedonia. For example, the Macedonians are being instructed to
>forget Voden and use the name Edessa and to drop the name Solun in

  YAIS. Edessa has been  called so since ancient (prehistoric times).
  Give a single reference from antiquity that the city was referred
  as "Voden". By the way how do you call Monasteri, oops Bitola:-):-)?
>
>   The little stream which issues from Mount Olympus and flows into
>the Aegean Sea by the town of Katerini is labelled 'Mavroneri',
>"black water", on maps made by Greek cartographers. However, the
>same river appears as "Crna Reka', a native Macedonian name meaning
>"black river" on maps made before 1913. Perhaps the village of

	So what? You translated a Greek name. And Axios river has been called
	so since ancient times but your prefer to call it Vardar.

	And the Macedonian city of Kavala was once called Neapoli.
	Despite her new name, and the perfercture's name (Perfecture of
	Kavala) the Greek-orthodox diocese retains the title,
	Diocese of Philippoi, Neapoli and Thassos.

>SUMMARY
>
>   It is common knowledge that the northern boundary of ancient
>Greece ran from the modern city of Preveza (a Macedonian name,

	No it is not common knowledge. It depends on how one defines
	greece and what it includes in this definition and when he makes
	this definition. The Myrmidones (and Homer) thought differently
	the Selloi of Epeiros  thought dfferently and called their country
	only Hellas.
	[if you drop the S from Selloi, you get Elloi the (alleged) root
	of Ellene called Hellene in english.]

>Mount Olympus. In antiquity, Macedonian was a northern neighbour of
>Greece, never a province of Greece.

	There were no provinces (the way you suggest) in antiquity only 
	city states and kingdoms.  Read some history first.
	Epeiros and Macedonia (and Thessaly) were kingdoms
	Athens, Thoeba etc were city-states, Sparta was a two-king
	kingdom. There was no such thing as a province of say Sparta. 
>
>   Alexander spoke Macedonian and was proud of his ethnicity.

	Yes and Macedonian  was a greek dialect (doric) with many
	archaic greek words not used elsewhere in Greece.

>However, the Macedonian language of his day was not used as a
>literary idiom. The first native written language of Macedonia is
>the idiom called Macedonian or Old Church Slavic.

	No! The first one was the Klingon dictionary (you know the
	race of the Star Trek: The Next generation [[Note: Certain
	words/ phrases are trademarks of Paramount Pictures]]).
	:-):-):-):-)
	Yes! Worf is a Macedonian:-):-)
	Actually the word Klingon comes from the name of Kleitos:-):-)
	:-):-):-)
	[Sorry, i couldn't resist]
>
>   Though Alexander spoke Greek, loved Homer, and respected his
>tutor Aristotle, there is much evidence that he hated and despised
>the Greeks of his day. He thoroughly destroyed Thebes. His Asian

	 Wow! Yet another proof of his Greekness! Have you ever
	 heard of the Peloponnesian War?  Check what Athenians
	 believed for the other Greeks in For Megalopolitans
	 by Demosthenes.  Alexander is a boy-scout and saint compared to the
	 behavior of some Athenians.

>empire is correctly called Macedonian, not Greek, for he won it with
>an army of 35,000 Macedonians and only 7,600 Greeks. The Greeks
>distinguished themselves on the side of the Persians. For instance,
>at the battle of Issus, Alexander's European army was opposed by a

	European army? Oh of course you probably include the Belgians
	(oops Bryges;-):-):-)

	A statement by Alexander that all Greeks except the Lacaedaemoniant participated in those conquests of his, suggests otherwise.
	Bad Luck! May be next time you will be lucky.

>was from Epirus, a land more Illyrian than Hellenic, and his earthly

	No It(Epeiros) was inhabited by Greeks (greek tribes). 
	Check N. G. L. Hammond's latest book
	("The miracle that was Macedonia"). It should be in your reading list.
	Hammond has also written extensively on Epeiros.

>heavenly parent was their god Ammon. After he conquered Mesopotamia,

	Yeah  and the Alexandros who writes this message
	has some bridges to sell you...  Inquiries are welcome:-)

>   It is possible that the native Macedonian name "Mygdones" was the

	No it is not. Because the word Makedones (Macedonians) comes from
	the greek word 'makos' but also because  previously Macedonians were
	also known as Makednoi and Maketae (both are variations of the same
	name). This name was given to the people who were first living in the
	Vermion mountains and Mygdonia is far away (for the distances
	considered long at that time).

>for all the different peoples of Macedonia. It is by the latter form

	Only the Macedonians. 

>if the ancient Greeks did take part in the shaping and popularizing
>of this name, this does not give today's Greece the copyright to the
>name "Macedonia".

	The name "Macedonia" was used to identify the land inhabited
	by greek people, with their own heritage,  remnants of which
	have been found in Vergina, Dion, and Pella. Later in Greece's
	history the distinction of Greeks on tribal terms became extinct
	but place of origin still identifies them. As a Macedonian
	myself i can attest this.

>
>[end]
>
Nice laugh. Thanks. By the way I suggest you rename the congress to
"Best Skopjan-origin Jokes". Just  a suggestion...
>


Regards,
Alexandros Gerbessiotis


PS I speak only for myself.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.rush-limbaugh