From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: Re: Please Don't Spank!
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:25:11 GMT

pt@hpsemc.cup.hp.com (Perry Taidi) writes:



>Please don't spank! Don't teach obediance! 

I can't fully agree that spanking is directly correlated with teaching
obediance.  Just my opinion.

>DO NOT need any form of
>so called "dicipline".  They do need tolerance for their unsuccessful
>attempts or they will give up trying and will just focus on avoiding
>punishments!

Agreed that the do need tolerance and understanding.  I do think that
children need discipline and structure and limit-setting, but I think
we disagree (please correct me if I'm wrong) on what I stated above
that spanking is NOT directly correlated (my thought) with teaching
obediance.

>This has worked for me and many others I know. If my daughter does something
>that I consider inappropriate, I tell her so. And I tell her the reason and give
>her examples and consequences. For example , if she wants to run around in
>a restaurant, I tell her look no one runs in a restaurant (we will examine
>other people for a while), other diners will be annoyed, and we will have to
>leave.  Or is she throws something at me, I just tell her it hurt me, why did
>she do it. I have shown enough compassion for her, that she has learned it 
>and will come and say I'm sorry ( an expression I have used many times when
>she has been hurt from me even when I couldn't understand why!). I am
>constatnly amased at how much she picks up everyday. New songs, new expressions
>new ways to act, etc.

>Children that are very very well behaved, are those  that are given the room
>to grow, and are not crushed into a model.

Question:  Do you have more than one child?

The reason I ask is only because when we only had Cory, he was the center
of our child-raising attention.  We could devote all of our child-raising
efforts into this one magnificient little boy.  On the day before Cory's
2nd birthday, his magnificient little brother Nicholas was born.  Now came
the real fun:  two boys and two egos, two little separate and unique
individuals.

Nicky was a cute little baby to Cory, and not any "threat" to his attention-
getting.  As Nicky started to crawl, he was really, really cute to other people
and I can't tell you HOW many times we would have to say to people, "Sure,
Nicky's cute, but Cory is his great-looking, cute older brother.  Aren't they
the cutest boys you've ever seen?"  Do you have any idea how people look past
an older sibling when there's a "cute little baby" to ooh and aah over?  Have
a second child and you can readily see how insensitive people can be in not
recognizing an older child.  And by the way, my wife and I DID take lots and
lots and lots of time before Nicholas was born in preparing Cory for another
member of the family and telling him how much we loved him and how much he
could help if he wanted to when his baby brother or sister came along.

As soon as Nicky started to walk, Cory became a different person.  Now there
was another individual who he had to share toys with, had to share attention
with, etc.  My wife and I have read book after book on the subject, talked
with child psychologists and confided in other parents to try and think of
every way possible to let both boys grow up without Cory causing extreme
physical violence to his little brother.  Now, if Cory has to put on his
pajamas, and Nicky doesn't have his on yet, Cory wants to know why.  If
Nicky gets something, why can't Cory?

I've tried reasoning and talking with Cory many a time, but when he gets
his stubborn little mind set on something, NOTHING breaks through.  Yes,
we do have great days with our boys and these are in the majority, but
when Cory OR Nicky decide they are not being treated the same or are not
getting enough attention, well, I now know the meaning of the word
"All hell breaks loose."

We love our boys dearly, but every once in a great while, one (more Cory
than Nicky it seems like . . . unfortunately) slap on a clothed butt does
seem to work.  Still, we try every other non-physical way to help instruct
and teach, especially me 'cause I'm the male and look more physically
imposing.

allen

Newsgroups: misc.kids