From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Subject: Re: Electors
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:25:21 GMT

In article <1gcmatINNsms@agate.berkeley.edu> kronberg@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>In article 426 of rec.heraldry <2 December 1992>, Anton Sherwood (dasher@well.sf.ca.us) writes:
>
>        Many of the German princes had tiny domains and most of the large
>states were intermittently subjected to division.  The total number of
>independent states, towns, bishoprics and abbeys, not all of which by any
>means had a direct vote in the Diet, was reckoned at 365 in 1715.  Some
>imperial knights held land directly of the Emperor but owned little more
>than a couple of villages. ... [I wish I had a map!]

Others didn't even hold any land in the Empire, but were nonetheless 
members of the Imperial Diet (they were called Personalisten).

>Where is there a list of the **365** states, towns, bishoprics, etc which
>existed in 1715?  Can anyone help with references or sources (in English)?

One way to find such a list is to look for an inventory of the Imperial
Estates (Reichssta"nde): those are the members of the Holy Roman Empire
who were represented in the Imperial Diet (Reichstag).  After 1489, the 
Reichstag was composed of 3 colleges or curiae: the electoral college,
the council of princes, and the college of free cities.   There were
further subdivisions, as follows:

					1521	1755
1) electors (Kurfu"rsten)		  7	  9
2) princes (Fu"rsten)
	- archbishops			  4	  4
	- bishops			 46	 39
	- lay princes			 24	 35
  prelates				 83	 41
  counts and lords (Grafen & Herren)	145	103
3) imperial cities (Reichssta"dte)	 85	 51
					----   -----
					394     282

There is also a list for 1792, somewhat simplified: in this list, 
the electoral college numbers 8, the Reichsfu"rstenrat is divided 
in a cleric "bank" (archbishops, bishops, abbots, totaling 77), 
and a lay "bank" (numbering 158), the college of cities is divided
in a Rhenish bank (14) and a Swabian bank (37), for a grand total of 294.
Within the cleric bank, 23 Swabian prelates and 19 Rhenish prelates
were given one vote for each group; likewise, in the lay bank, the counts
of Wetterau, Swabia, Franconia and Westphalia were given one vote each.
(in the end, each college voted as one).

These numbers are deceptive: the same individual could hold multiple
seats in the Reichstag. For example, Austria sat as duke of Austria, but
also as count of Montfort and count of Hohenem. THe king of England sat
as count of Hoya, Diepholz and Spiegelberg. 

Between the 1521 list and the 1755 list, there are numerous differences:
bishoprics were secularized, lands were absorbed into other lands; in
some cases a vote was extinguished because the heirs couldn't agree 
(Ju"lich and Berg, Kleve and Mark). Some territories left the Empire: 
the bishoprics of Verdun, Metz, Toul and the cities of Strasburg, Colmar
became French; Utrecht became Dutch; etc. 

As for a map, the Times Historical Atlas (highly recommended in any case)
has as precise a map as I ever saw, representing the state of the Empire
around the time of the thirty Years War. 

The information comes from: Bruno Gebhardt, Handbuch der Deutschen Geshichte,
vol.2; Stuttgart, 1973.
-- 

	Francois Velde

Xref: sparky rec.heraldry:441 soc.culture.german:9176 soc.culture.polish:3967 soc.culture.europe:10361 alt.revolution.counter:53 soc.culture.british:17375