From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Homosexuals anywhere are wrong
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:48:12 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <MIB.92Jul28141358@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu> mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes:

>Moreover, we can use the mind we are given and notice anal intercourse
>between males in other mammalian species.  Are they sinners?  Are they
>unnatural?

Some animals have killed human babies.  Was this the way they were created
to act in the beginning?  Scripture speaks of a time when the lion will lie
down with the lamb.  It also says that the whole creation is looking forward
to and groaning untill the day of the adoption.  The earth has been corrupted
by sin.  

Whether animals can sin is another issue, and if they can, whether or not
anal sex performed by animals is not the issue either.  We are not to 
behave as animals.  The false teachers Of II Peter 2 behaved as animals,
as natural brute beasts, following their fleshly lusts.  We are not to
behave as animals.  Animal sin is not the issue.  Scripture forbids 
homosexual sex between humans.

>The only sense I can make of Paul's words are that he believes gay sex
>to be unnatural, and that it is therefore contrary to God's wishes.

Paul does not base his condemnation of homosexuality on the idea that
homosexual sex is unnatural.  Rather, he mentions that it goes against
nature in the course of his teaching.  The Old Testament already contained
many repeated condemnations of this action.  Paul describes homosexual
sex as sinful, just as he describes many other actions, thoughts and
attitudes as being sinful, with little basis for support, other than the
revelation of the gospel and of the truth which the Lord gave to him.
Paul does use Scripture to prove his point, but Paul was also writing 
Scripture (as Peter testified to in his epistle.)  The teachings of
Paul are teachings which he transmitted as he recieved them from the
Lord.  For example, in I Corinthians 11 he made note of the fact that he
recieved from the Lord the teaching on the Lord's Supper that he passed on
to the Corinthians.  


>But, Paul himself does not identify the natural with God's wishes,
>and, in fact, he is *wrong* about whether gay sex is natural.

So, do you know God better than the apostle Paul?  Should we throw away 
all of his teaching, and throw away all of the Scriptures, and follow your
teaching and your wisdom?  Should we ignore the other apostles who affirmed
Paul's teaching, and ignore all of the believers through the centuries who 
sought God and had confirmed to them the same things that Paul taught?
Should we turn from Jesus whom they served and follow you?

>The only conclusion is that Paul opposes the twisting of our natural
>sexual inclinations in an unnatural way.  Since we now know that
>people have a variety of different natural sexual inclinations, rather
>than a single natural inclination for all people,

All of us are "naturally" corrupted by sin.  Following our "natural"
instincts and going with the flow would lead us into all kinds of immorality,
fornication, lying, cheating, stealing, maybe eventually murder.  

Christians are not to behave as "_natural_ brute beasts."  We are to 
subdue the fleshly inclinations that bring death and instead live in the
resurrection power of the Spirit that allows us to be free from sin and
live righteously.

we must conclude
>that the wisdom of Paul would have us refuse to pervert our nature and
>attempt to violate the will of God as expressed in our creation.

Paul would have us believe that we should take on the Christ-like nature
and that we should each be a new creation.


>Attempts on my part, for example, to be straight, would represent just
>such a violation of nature.

And would living a life of celebacy through self-control be a violation of
nature, and therefore immoral?

Was Paul immoral because he was celebate and did not give in to fleshly
lusts to participate in fornication?

Link Hudson.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc