From: gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Reconciling OT with NT
Date: 17 Dec 92 07:55:55 GMT
Organization: Gizmonic Institute - Home of the "Super G Burger"

Please leave the attribution lines in your posts.  It makes it easier to
keep track of who said what and when.

<1992Dec16.122131.12824@waikato.ac.nz> arron@waikato.ac.nz writes:
>> Let me undertstand this:  *ONE* act of disobediance is enough to
>> convict the entire human race including all those who have not yet been
>> born.  Yet, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer could be
>> granted ever-lasting life if they just accept Christ.  Is that right?
>> 
>> And you're happy about this system?
>
>Yes ... *ONE* is enough, as at the time it was the ONLY possible Sin they could
>have done. Other than that they were walking with God, sharing and walking in
>His ways.

Didn't your god know they were going to sin?  Heck it was the only sin
they could do, yet they found it quickly enough.  Why was your god so
surprised by their sinning?

>As for Hitler ... he didn't (as far as I know) change from his EVIL way, but
>had he done so ... maybe he could have been forgiven. If there was nothing God
>couldn't forgive, after a bit of repentance, then there would be people who
>couldn't get to heaven, and that WOULDN'T be fair !!!!

According to some interpretations of Revelations only virgin men are
allowed in heaven anyway.

>> Excuse me, up to that point Adam and Eve had only done *one* thing wrong.
>> And it didn't even hurt anyone.  It's not like they drowned the entire
>> world on a flood, or ordered the children of another tribe slaughtered.
>
>They brought sin into the world, they caused the problem, God just tried
>to keep the evil in check. 

He did a really bad job of it then.  How can a perfect omnipotent being
fail so miserably if he really tried?  Or maybe he didn't really try...

>> And Adam and Eve hiding in the bushes isn't evidence that they were aware
>> they had done wrong?
>
>The words go 'We were afraid', no repentance, just fear as far as I can see.
>It's the getting RIGHT with God that really matters.

I assume that you don't believe the OT is a record of every
syllable ever spoken between your god and Adam and Eve.
If you do believe that it is a complete record then where does
your god give either of them a chance to repent?
If you don't believe it is a complete record then how do you know they
didn't ask forgiveness?

>> OK, I'm not perfect.
>
>Great ... neither am I, I have asked forgiveness from God ... so what are you
>going to do about it ????

Accept it and get on with life.

>> OK, I blame Christ for all my troubles and sins.  Whew!  I feel better
>> already.  Does this mean I live forever now?
>
>Oh ... heck ... you are a funny man !!! I beleive your interpretation of
>offloading everything on to Christ's shoulders is a bit off ... I mean, ask
>Christ to represent/intercede for you to God. Be repentant then trust that God
>will forgive you. But God knows the ways of men (he made us) and knows when you
>say 'I am sorry' to be a smart prat, and when you mean it.

'So be good for goodness sake...'  Hey I've heard this before somewhere...

>> No, no.  I mean proof that there is a god waiting.  Not proof that someone
>> said there was a god waiting.
>
>I'm afraid that unless you look and see with your own eyes, there will never be
>any proof good enough for you (short the second coming, which I really hope for
>your sake isn't soon)

I wish it would hurry up and get it over with.  Then we can get on with
life.  BTW, the second coming has been predicted for about 2000 years now.
When do *you* think it will really get here?

>>>                 all you have to do is to know how to communicate with him.
>> 
>> Wait a sec, you said you knew how to communicate with him.  Why can't he
>> communicate *my* way?  Isn't he capable of it?
>
>Now here's where I need a little faith. Yes God can speak to you clearly and 
>in a way you can understand (eg. voice/angels/miracles/revelation/miraculous
>appearance). I will pray that God does do that. If God doesn't 'show up' I have
>my own understanding as to why not. This is what explains it to me, this is not
>and argument to convince you, so if you think it's Christian clap-trap ...
>tough !!!! If God proved to you, without reasonable doubt that he is real, and
>exactly ther character of God in the bible you would HAVE to accept him, no
>free choice, no faith, no reasoning required. 

Hold it.  In the OT plenty of people hung around with this god and plenty
of them turned from him.  It doesn't sound like they HAD to accept him.
Why would it be any different for me?  Noah, Lot, Moses, all hung around
with god on a regular basis yet they each managed to piss him off.

>                                              Have faith that God exists and he
>will reveal himself clearly, if you don't it is only God may reveal himself to
>change you, (to help you be saved) or he will continue to work in you until you
>die a lost sole, or finally realise the truth.

Well he better get busy.

>> Geez, it's not gonna be one of these "You can't see him but he's all
>> around us <wink><wink>" things, is it?  If so, tell him to forget it.  If
>> he can't face me directly then don't bother.
>
>He can face you directly, but even the great OT prophets couldn't look face to
>face with God, can you face him ????

From "Self-Contradictions of the Bible", by William Henry Burr in 1859
(originally posted by someone else):

Example:
God CAN be seen:
    "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." 
    (Ex. 33:23)
    "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to 
    his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
    "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
    "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
    "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me 
    and live." (Ex. 33:20)
    "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

Other exmaples:
   God is CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS:
        "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14)
        "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and
        spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
   God is KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
        "The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)
        "For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)
        "The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his 
        works." (Ps. 145:9)
        "God is love." (1 John 4:16)

   God tempts men:
        "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
        (Gen 22:1)
   God tempts NO man:
        "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God 
        cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James 1:13)

   The father of Joseph, Mary's husband, was JACOB:
        "And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
        (Matt. 1:16)
   The father of Joseph, Mary's husband, was HELI:
        "Being the son of Joseph which was the son of Heli." (Luke 3:23)

   Judas committed suicide by hanging:
        "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed,
        and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)
   Judas did NOT hang himself, but died another way:
        "And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his
        bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

   Elijah went up to heaven:
        "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)
   NO ONE BUT CHRIST ever ascended into heaven:
        "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven,
        ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)

Feel free to explain.  And yes, I suppose I could face him.  Heck, if he's
so omnipotent then he could face me without blinding me, right?

>> Like I said, if he'd been so patient with Adam and Eve after *one* little
>> transgression we'd have avoided the whole mess.
>
>Dead point ... God can commune with the sinful, if you do not have some type of
>sacrifice (cows/birds/goats/sheep and finally the one Christ) to lay your sins
>on to, you can not be near him, he had to reject what was wrong.

Let me get this straight, I need to sacrifice an animal for your god to
even pay attention to me?  You say he HAD TO reject what was wrong... why?
Who was making him reject it?  What or who was powerful enough to make
your god do what he didn't want to do?

>>>That's exactly what he WILL do, it's all documented in the Bible.
>> 
>> Then what are we worried about.  Party down!
>
>Christ said ... 'No man can come to the Father accept by me' I sought, I found,
>and I know this to be true. My eternity is a different one than you face by the
>sounds, which is very sad, but it's not too late for you. The we CAN party
>down.

My eternity is spent right here, thank you.  I've no evidence of any
method of extending my time indefinately.

>> I've found lots of good things in this world.  None of them had "Made by
>> god" stamped on them.
>
>Sounds like you've been looking in the wrong place then !!!

I turned them all over and looked underneath. ;-)

>Looking forward to Friday 18th December ... God bless, catch ya later Gordon.

Well, it's almost Thursday, the 17th here.  Oh, good point...  is your god
on PST or GMT?


Gordon
-- 
The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc