HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kwatson@kwatson.mentorg.com (Keith Watson)
Subject: Re: Corvette GS ??
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:05:51 GMT
Organization: mentor
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 

In article <184323@pyramid.pyramid.com>, danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Dan Jones) writes:
|> Robert Smith writes:
|> 
|> >Does anyone know if there are any of the Corvette Gran Sports still
|> >in existence?
|> 

[ delete lots of good info about the specific cars ]

|> 
|> Dan Jones

A dark blue one was run at the Vintage races at Portland International Raceway
this year.  What a lovely sounding car.
-- 
Keith Watson              Mentor Graphics Corporation (Wilsonville, OR)
kwatson@mentorg.com       keith_watson@mentorg.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: eu507dac@pts.mot.com (DOUG CHRISTENSEN X3915 P6818)
Subject: Re: Nissan and IMSA
Reply-To: eu507dac@pts.mot.com
Organization: Paging and Wireless Data Group
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:00:50 GMT

In article 7516@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, cweber@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Christopher D Weber) writes:
>
>     As for IMSA, I would expect the GTP series to fizzle in a few years due to
>flagging grid sizes.  I'm intrigued by Mazda's pullout.  They were so fond of 
>bragging about how heir RX-7 was a better race car than the various 911s that 
>raced in IMSA over the years (they didn't count the 935's wins).  Mazda got a 
>rude awakening this year when their cars weren't as successful as they had 
>expected.  I guess you can't just walk in and dominate anymore...
>

I think IMSA needs to revisit the "sports car racing" mind set.  Isn't the 
acceptance and interest in the Super Car series interesting?  We are starting
to see a de-evolution of the classic sports car racing series with Porsche
GM and Lotus providing factory support and drivers to the Supercar series.
The factories are interested in promoting cars with which the spectators can identify
without chewing up company profits.  Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.  Can this
be the future for IMSA?  Why is NASCAR so popular?  Why is the Touring
Car series popular overseas?  Wake up IMSA.

Power to the unibody door-slammers!

Doug Christensen  FFEC touring car #30, SSB Scirocco #61

     _____
   _/_|__|\__
  | _ |61| _ \
 <-(_)----(_)-^       "When I'm racing, I'm alive.  Everthing else
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^    is just waiting."  Steve McQueen, Le Mans.





Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: rgolen@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: Re: IMSA abandons GTP for open cockpits
Reply-To: rgolen@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 14:09:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.060434.2716@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, ngoldber@nyx.cs.du.edu (norm goldberg) writes:
>
>  In a stunning turn of events, IMSA has abondoned GTP sports cars for
>open cockpit single seaters with fenders. In an effort to bolster fields
>and reduce costs,single seater machinary such as the Lola Indy car,will
>now be accepted in IMSA so long as the car has it's wheels covered.This
>harps back to the second generation of CAN-AM when old F5000 cars were
>outfitted with extra bodywork and fenders to give that sports car illusion.
>
>  The idea is to phase out the current day sports cars gradually over 2 to
>3 years.Both types of cars will compete together next year,but no new
>closed cockpit machinery will be homologated in '94.All this info comes
>via our AP news feed.
>
>
And we all know how exciting the "second generation" Can-Am series
was compared to the original, and how long that "second generation"
series lasted!

Then again there are some parallels here. You have a series which
causes a "techno-dollar" war between competitors, in which
only a few can play, and eventually the series dies out. Look at
the Can-Am in 72-73 when Penske/Porsche spent megabucks to win
the series and no one else could keep up, sort of like the 
current GTP series, and to some extent the WSC.

I hate the idea of "recycled" racers being used as the basis of a
series. Why not have a series based on production-based, non
turbo-charged enginges all having some minimum weight to displacement
formula leaving aerodynamics free, or even let the GTL cars
"grow up" like the Chevy-Spice.

My $.02 worth.

Ric Golen
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
Subject: Re: Senna's an ass!
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:59:48 GMT

In <1992Nov12.160718.18308@hubcap.clemson.edu> andy@newton.cs.clemson.edu (Andrew J. Greenshields N3IGS) writes:

>In article <36970@cbmvax.commodore.com> bj@cbmvax.commodore.com (Brian Jackson - Amiga Networking) writes:
>>
>>No one can see into his mind so know one really knows. But once Senna had
>>admitted that he had, indeed, punted Prost of course in Japan _on purpose_
>>he left himself open to such charges forever more. 
>>
>  And I suppose that Mansell, having never admitted to any mistake, is
>above suspicion.

Mansell has admitted to mistakes, although not as many as he has
made. He has never admitted to (and I don't think he actually has)
punting anyone off the road deliberately. Senna has admitted to 
this, so it certainly wasn't a mistake.

regards,
-- 
thos cohen                  ,not a typo        |Softway Pty Ltd
"It's not so bad to be a lair but a conniving  |ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 egomaniac is not really that socially accept- |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 able."  SMH, 2 Nov 92, P. Keating vs J. Hewson|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: dougw@grebyn.com (Doug Worthington)
Subject: W.K.A World Championship in Daytona 
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:25:56 GMT

	If you want to see where many of your favorite drivers got their
start in racing, come to Daytona during December 27-31 and watch enduro
and sprint karters going wild.  Many enduro races will have 75 karts on
the track at the same time.  There will also be indoor sprint racing as
well as a trade show.  If you are interested in karting this is the place
to be.

dougw
doguw@grebyn.com

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
Subject: Re: Porsche at Le Mans (was Re: F1 Stuff)
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: 23 Nov 92 03:12:40 GMT


This was appropriated from another's article. The original doesn't
seem to have made it here yet, or I've missed it. So I'll answer 
now.

>In article <winders-171192165258@macwinders.support.apple.com>, winders@aux.support.apple.com (Scott Winders) writes:

>>If John Wyer is right, why did Porsche spend so much time and money
>>designing and testing long-tail cars just for Le Mans? Based on their
>>record there, I would say they did the right thing. Also, Le Mans has
>>many straights. Porsche often tested long-tail and short-tail cars
>>on the track at the same time. Once setup, the long-tail cars always
>>had faster lap times.....


John Wyer was right because he had an awful lot of experience of
endurance racing. There was an interesting scene recounted in his
autobiography 'The Certain Sound' of his interview with the people
who ran Porsche, when they asked him how many cars he would need
to run a season. He replied that two would be necessary, and it 
would be ideal to have three. (It may have been 3 and 4, but you
get the picture). There was a strained silence, and then they admitted
that they'd built 55 in the last year (and still been beaten).
His book, which I choose to believe over the 'official' Porsche
racing history (by Paul Frere, under various titles), shows Porsche
to be very resistent to outside ideas - very good examples of the
NIH syndrome.

Based on Porsche's record at Le Mans, you'd be wise to use a short-tail,
because the long-tails never won there. The long-tails had faster lap
times, but not by much, and in a race like Le Mans, that extra speed
laid a little bit of extra stress on components, for very little reward.
Also, driving a long-tail that was less stable would be more wearing
on the driver, and he'd be less able to take it to the limit for lap
after lap. I would suspect that after 20 or 30 laps, the times would
be identical or even in the favour of the 917Ks.

Don't forget also, that when talking about Porsche's Le Mans record,
that their winning started with the 917, and you cannot really use their
subsequent activities to validate their early ones.

regards,
-- 
thos cohen                  ,not a typo        |Softway Pty Ltd
"It's not so bad to be a lair but a conniving  |ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 egomaniac is not really that socially accept- |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 able."  SMH, 2 Nov 92, P. Keating vs J. Hewson|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: mclellan@maximillion.mcc.com (David McLellan)
Subject: Re: Only 92 days left til ....... Daytona! <spoilers -- NASCAR>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: MCC Corporate Computing
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:04:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.223536.22597@tamsun.tamu.edu>, pmh2962@tamsun.tamu.edu (Pat Hayes) writes...

>It became evident (the ESPN guys didn't
>pick this up til later) that the Bill and Alan were
>gonna finish 1-2 (or 2-1) and the championship was gonna
>come down to who got the 5 points for leading the most laps. 

Maybe you were out of the room, or maybe I was watching a different 
ESPN broadcast, but I thought they picked up on this quickly, just shortly 
after Kulwicki took the lead from Elliott.  And until Davey went out, 
the championship race still included him.

>	The ESPN guys were certain Kulwicki would
>run himself outta gas. 

Again, their information came from that most credible of sources, the 
pit crew chief.  Nothing like spreading disinformation through the 
media and keeping the other crews guessing.

Considering the quality of ESPN versus the lack of quality by TBS, I 
would rather have ESPN any day.  TBS didn't pick up on Elliott's crash 
that broke a rear bar even after his crew was welding it.

>The King was
>taken out in a "blaze" of glory, as the TV guys so aptly
>put it. 

My memory of Richard Petty's last race will be highlighted by the 
"Bring the ***** fire extinguisher" from the voice pickup. Rolled on 
the floor for several minutes over that one.  So much for live sound 
from cars and crews.

>	Whew! What a race, what a season! And, yep, only
>92 more days to Daytona! Can't wait ......... 

Can't agree with you more on these two counts.

DAvid

Bring BGN to TWS in 1993
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: pmh2962@tamsun.tamu.edu (Pat Hayes)
Subject: IndyCar v F1, retiring, old men, etc <long> (was Re: I asked Michael)
Organization: Meteorology, TAMU, CS, TX
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:55:50 GMT

Gabriele F. Giuliani writes:
>Count me too. In fact Andretti "the elder" is basically the ONLY american
>driver in recent times (what, 30 years or so?) to be really successful in 
>both types of racing (USA stuff AND F1). Not only did he won a F1 world
>championship but, quite surprisingly, also managed to put a Ferrari on the 
>pole at Monza in 1980(?) while substituting on a short note for an injured 
>Ferrari driver. In fact I find that Emerson Fittipaldi's success in Indy 
>cars after his "retirement" is no big deal: It is "the other way
>around" that it is much more problematic. Do you know of any american
>trained driver to retire to F1 and ... be successful? Well, I sure don't. 
---------------
Howdy!
	I, too, like the elder Andretti. But, after that, your
comparison is hosed. The old "apples and oranges" problem.
	IndyCar and F1 are 2 very (not completely) different sports
when it comes to what it takes to be successful TODAY. One reason
Emmo did well (besides his awesome skill!) is that old farts _can_
do well in IndyCar. Do I need to break out the statistics on driver
age?  Both series have a few extra seats looking for _good_ drivers;
but the formats of the two series make IndyCar the series of choice
for 'mature' drivers with the stuff to get good rides.
	I won't get into which series is badder; they each place
demands on drivers. Until CART started adding street courses to
the schedule, the IndyCar (CART) schedule was mostly ovals and
the odd wide-open (Road America) road course. 'Easier' for a
wider range of driver aptitude. If you think about it that way,
then F1 is a younger man's series, and IndyCar is a natural
step for a hot, but older, driver to 'graduate' to. Sorta
like 'the seniors' tour', if you will. F1 is more of a sprint
series, whereas IndyCar is more of a mini-endurance deal.
Its a hell of a lot harder to go from being a very successful
endurance-type driver to a sprint-type; and, frankly, who
would want to? Lets face it, the pace of the F1 lifestyle
is nasty! Not appealing to the kind of folks IndyCar drivers
tended to be.  Michael and Lil Al are the first IndyCar drivers
with the skill, youth, and flexibility to give it a go.

	On a related tack, guys like Foyt and MaAndretti went over
and did well at LeMans partly because they were good and partly
because they knew how to drive "slow enough to win." I hope
Michael hasn't learned IndyCar techniques too well.....Nah!

	Sorry for the babble -- I'm still wound up about
Kulwicki's "win" yesterday!!!!
-- 
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Pat Hayes, Meteorology, Texas A&M University...<whoop!>...phayes@tamu.edu 
O&M 1008, TAMU, CS, TX 77843-3150....days:(409)845-1680 fax:(409)845-6331
From: hagood@sabre.den.mmc.com (Dave Hagood)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Nissan and IMSA
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:59:38 GMT
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics Group

In article <winders-191192154814@macwinders.support.apple.com>, winders@aux.support.apple.com (Scott Winders) writes:
|> [lots of stuff deleted]
|> 
|> When the factory gets involved, forget it, Porsche always wins...
|> 

	Well, now, let's see:  IndyCars (Porsche can't cut it and pulls out),
F1 (Porsche can't cut it and pulls out)...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
									|
David M. Hagood			Martin Marietta Astronautics Group	|
									|
Voice:  (303) 977-9657		When in danger, or in doubt,		|
E-mail: hagood@den.mmc.com	Run in circles, scream and shout.	|
Fax: (303) 977-1530							|
									|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
     static char *disclaimer = "My opinions, not Martin Marietta's."    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: hanss@microsoft.com (Hans Spiller)
Subject: Re: open-wheel drag (Re: F1 Stuff)
Date: 17 Nov 92 04:34:53 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Distribution: worldIn article <1992Nov13.143729.13094@meaddata.com> andyw@meaddata.com wrote:

> Physics question:  What are the units that Cd is measured in???  How do you 
> convert Cd to the actual force of drag at a given speed?
> 

the Cd (Coefficient of Drag) is unitless.  you multiply it times the actual, or projected
frontal area of the thing being tested to get the effective frontal area.

put a piece of plywood across the flow of a wind tunnel (an infinitessimally thin and
infinitely rigid piece of plywood) and measure the force attempting to displace it.  This,
by definition, has a Cd of 1.0.  Then, using putty or fiberglass or spittle or whatever,
fill in the area fore and aft of the plywood to make a better airfoil, but leaving the
edge of the plywood exposed and at the maximum thickness.  You'll get a different (hopefully
lower) displacing force.  the ratio of these two forces is the Cd of your new airfoil.  Cd
varies with lots of things: the velocity and viscosity (air's viscosity changes slightly
with temperature and humidity and pressure) of the medium it's moving through, the angle of
attack, the smoothness of the surface (smoother is not always better, although it usually
is), disturbing influences (eg ground effects, other airfoils nearby, rotating wheels and,
propellers), the size of the airfoil etc.  several of the variations are encapsulated in
another unitless figure, the Reynolds Number, which allows you to relate smaller airfoils
with larger ones of the same shape, even in different media, as long as you remain
"subcritical", (which is usually taken to be about half the speed of sound in the medium.
note that the tops of the wheels of an indycar at IMS are traveling about 460 mph these
days--which may count as a "critical" speed.  hmm...)

a formula car with a Cd of (say) 1.3 at 60mph and a projected frontal area of 4 square feet
has less drag than a road car with a PFE of 20 square feet and a Cd of .3 at the same speed
in the same air.  1.3*4=5.2.  0.3*20=6.  those same cars may have higher or lower Cds at
higher speeds.

						-Hans
From: danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Dan Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Corvette GS ??
Date: 18 Nov 92 06:38:47 GMT
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation, Mountain View

Robert Smith writes:

>Does anyone know if there are any of the Corvette Gran Sports still
>in existence? I think only four or five escaped the factory before
>the line was shut down. The last one I saw was at the 1966 Players 200
>at Mosport; George Wintersteen had turned it into a coupe and was
>racing against a mixed bag including sports racers (group 7).

I believe there were 5 coupes and 2 roadstrs built.  The #003 and #004
coupes were racing at the Monterey Historics several years ago.  The
owner of #003 is out of Woodside, CA and #004 is out of Bela Vista, CA.
The #003 car was raced by John Mecom, Augie Pabst, Jim Hall, John Cannon
and others.  The #004 car by Mecom, Roger Penske, and others.  

The #005, ex Mecom, Hall, Penske, George Wintersteen, Jacques Couture
car had not been restored as of 1989 and was located in Florida.

The #001 Roadstr exists in Connecticut.  It has been restored to Roger
Penske colors, so I wouldn't be surprised if it shows up at Palm Springs
for the Historics this weekend (a tribute to Roger Penske).  At least
this car is in the advertisement for the race.

The #002 Roadstr exists in New Jersey.  This was the car that Wintersteen
raced at the 1966 Players 200.  If there was a coupe in that race, it
could have been #005 driven by Couture sponsored by Duval Chevrolet in
Montreal.

Dan Jones
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: oconnor@took.enet.dec.com (My name is Joe O'Connor)
Subject: date for Candian Gp in 93
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 20 NOV 92 13:46:40 EDT

I was just wondering if any knew when the Candian GP was going to be held and
if it was going to be held in Montreal any place to call for ticket info etc...

advTHANKSance

Joe
From: winders@aux.support.apple.com (Scott Winders)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Porsche at Le Mans (was Re: F1 Stuff)
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:56:07 GMT
Followup-To: rec.autos.sport
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <97620020@misty.boeing.com>, glenn@misty.boeing.com (Glenn
Cirlincione) wrote:
> 
> / misty:rec.autos.sport / thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) /  1:36 pm  Nov 15, 1992 /
> In <BxH5ts.Lux@umassd.edu> rgolen@UMASSD.EDU writes:
> 
> >As a result of FIA's ban on moveable aerodynamic devices in early 1969
> >the flaps were made non-moveable for the 69 LeMans. This upset the
> >aerodynamics of the 917 Long and Short tails considerably. One effect
> >of this was the death of English privateer John Woolfe when his 917
> >went out of control as the rear wheels lost contact with the ground
> >I believe at the end of the Mulsanne during the opening laps.
> 
> Actually at White House (La Maison Blanche).
> 
> >short tail version had enhanced stability. Porsche continued to
> >develop its "long tailed" version for LeMans, but with large
> >vertical fins joined by a horizontal wing. Interestingly enough,
> >the special LeMans versions never won the race, and were marginally
> >faster per lap than their short tailed bretheren.
> 
> They were much faster along Mulsanne (Jo Siffert saw 236mph+ in 1971,
> and maintained that the speed measuring point was not at the fastest
> point of the straight).
> John Wyer, a clear thinking man, always maintained that it was
> unnecessary to tune the car for all-out speed at Le Mans, as Mulsanne
> was only a fraction of the entire lap, and whatever speed you gained
> on the straight you lost in handling over the rest of the course - and
> he was right. Also interesting was that the 917s were getting over 
> 200 mph 4 times a lap!
> 

If John Wyer is right, why did Porsche spend so much time and money
designing and testing long-tail cars just for Le Mans? Based on their
record there, I would say they did the right thing. Also, Le Mans has
many straights. Porsche often tested long-tail and short-tail cars
on the track at the same time. Once setup, the long-tail cars always
had faster lap times.....


Scott Winders
winders@aux.support.apple.com

"My opinions are my own, not my employer's"
From: sasykes@ncrcan.Canada.NCR.CA (Simon A Sykes_Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Yet more trivia from Autosport (Answers -- finally!)
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:48:04 GMT
Organization: NCR Canada Ltd. Mississauga, Ontario
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

afinlayson@kean.ucs.mun.ca wrote:
: In article <1992Nov16.201733.28522@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com>, mcclure@force.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
: > In article <8720@dirac.physics.purdue.edu>, gfg@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Gabriele F. Giuliani) writes:
: >>.... wait a moment, .. a plane? I thought the great Graham Hill died in a
: >>damn helicopter crash. Can anyone confirm/wet this? gfg
: >>
: >>
: > 
: > Gabriele,
: > Graham Hill died in a light plane (i.e., small private job) along with Carlos
: > Pace.  I believed that they were returning from or going to a test session
: > (where I don't remember, might have been Argentina or Brazil?).  I believe
: > that Graham was the pilot at that time.  I will try to dig up my notes when
: > I get home tonight.
: > Kent M. McClure
: > Auto racing afficionado and member of San
: > Jose IPMS chapter.
: > My views are what they are, like them or not.
: 
: From memory...it was a twin engined prop job and there was some speculation
: that the cause of the crash was a cabin door or baggage compartment door
: coming open during flight.  Anyone else remember more...or better...
: or have actual documentary sources?
: 
: Chris Finlayson

From what I remember, Graham was landing in thick fog - I understand he had no
 pilots licence - his estate was sued by the widow of Tony Brise, his driver.
In Road and Track, I recall Rob Walker would laugh at his experiences flying with HILLarious Airlines.  This flight wasn't so funny - lucky he wasn't on that 
flight.  All from memory - I have no documentary source.


Simon