Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 14:23:19 -0400
Reply-To:     George Boyce <george@NR-TECH.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>
From:         George Boyce <george@NR-TECH.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: denmark
              25 Sep 92 21:02:23 GMT."
              <9209260218.AA22380@mitchell.cit.cornell.edu>

> A fleet can move from Baltic Sea to SKA or visa versa via Denmark.
> Why cannot one also move from Baltic Sea to the North Sea via denmark
> as denmark also boarders on the North Sea?

> The only explanation I can come up with is that it is no possible to move
> from the North Sea to Denmark and then to the Baltic Sea because you just
> can't - although there is no specific mention in the rules.

> Well, there being no mention of anything related to this in the rules is
> rather confusing...

Well, lets quote the rules and see if we can clear up any confussion.

[Expienced players may wish to skip this message. I'm only trying to
help novice people learn the rules. No offense to Mark and Jamie but
just saying "The question is irrelevant" and "This is obvious..." is
not a good way to teach new people the rules.]

My rulebook says "Copyright 1976 The Avalon Hill Game Co."

  VII THE MOVE ORDER...
  1. MOVEMENT
  ...A Fleet may move to any body of water or coastal province which is
  adjacent to its current location...

So can one move bal-nth, bal-ska, bla-aeg, bal-hel, or bar-gob? No, in
all five situations you you must first move to den, den/swe, con, kie,
or stp.

  When a fleet in in a coastal province, the warships [hey, I thought
  this wasn't a *war* game?] are assumed to be at any point along the
  coast of that province. The fleet may move to an adjacent coastal
  province only if it is adjacent along the coastline.

Opps, In all five cases above one might assume that you are on the
"wrong" side coast of the given province. All five provinces clearly
have two coastlines (on good maps). The two coasts in St. Petersburg
are even labeled.

  3. MOVEMENT IN CERTAIN UNUSUAL POSITIONS ON THE BOARD.
  a. KIEL AND CONSTANTINOPLE
  By virtue of waterways through these two provinces, fleets may enter
  along one coast, and, on another move, leave from the other coast.

Ah, that permits bla-con-aeg and bal-kie-hel in two moves.

  b. PROVINCES HAVING TWO COASTS (Bulgaria, Spain, and St. Petersburg)
  A fleet entering one of these provinces enters along one coast and
  may then move only to a space adjacent to that coast.

Oh, stp(nc)-gob is not valid so bar-stp-gob is not valid. That leaves
two questionable moves, bal-den-nth and bal-den/swe-ska. Both moves
center on the issue of coastlines. *IF* den and swe have two coastlines,
then the moves are *NOT* valid.

  c. SWEDEN AND DENMARK
  A fleet moving from the Baltic Sea to Skaggerak or vice versa must
  first move to Seden or Denmark. The common border with Denmark does
  not separate the coast of Seden into two coastlines.

Hmm, this is indeed a confusing answer. It is clear that sweden does
not have two coastlines (because they say so) so bal-swe-ska is legal.
And bal-den-ska is legal, again because they say it is.

But it doesn't say *Denmark* does not have two coastlines. And for the
two other similar looking provinces, kie and con, the rules were
explicit to mention the internal waterways. But, as has been pointed
out, it is accepted practice to take this rule, and deduce that Denmark
does not have two coastlines and thus bal-den-nth is legal.

Perhaps the only reason Denmark doesn't have two coasts is that there
wasn't room on the board to print the labels? Maybe. But the real
logic is if Denmark doesn't seperate Sweden into two coastlines, how
could Sweden separate Denmark into two coastlines? Or you can use the
map as part of the rules; the map does not have two coasts labeled for
Denmark, hence it does not have two coastlines.

> why in the rule book (2nd edition/feb '82) on page 3 where it talks
> about Kiel and Constantinople doesn't it also mention Denmark.

Because Kiel and Const have wholly internal waterways which might
otherwise be unseen if not explained. Denmark's waterway is similar
but it also touches Sweden and so a little explanation about how it
affects both provinces is in order. First they explain in 3.b what it
means to have two coastlines and then in 3.c they explain Denmark's
special case. Perhaps there should be a note in 3.a to "see below
about Denmark".

While we are at it, if we need to explain that bal-den-nth is valid,
we need to do the same for (fleet) moves like bla-con-smy,
bla-con-bul(sc), ber-kie-hol and a couple others. The fact that there
is a waterway which overrides the two coastline rule makes these moves
valid.

I hope this helped.

George
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