From: James Meritt <m23364@mwunix>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.moderated
Subject: Re: Non-New Testament Documentation
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 18:09:41 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA


If I might add an extract from my critiaue of Evidence That Demands a Verdict
that seems relevant:

}		Non-biblical sources for the Historicity of Jesus
}			Cornelius Tacitus
James J. Lippard writes:
"In Tacitus' Annals (XV, 44), he mentions Christians and states that "Christus,
from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the
reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus"
(Tacitus 1942, vol.  1, pp.  380-381).  Several facts call this into question
as independent testimony to Jesus' history.  The first is that the late date
of its writing (120 C.E.) indicates that Tacitus was most likely merely
repeating what Christians themselves said.  Second, the earliest existing
manuscript containing this passage is from the Middle Ages.  Third, it was not
Tacitus' practice to consult original documents and in fact Roman crucifixion
records would not be accessible to the ordinary Roman citizen (Wells 1971, pp.
186-188).  Fourth, the passage's inaccuracy is indicated by its misuse of the
title "Christ" as a proper name and its reference to Pilate as "procurator"
rather than his correct title, "prefect" (Wells 82, p. 16)."
}			Lucian of Samosta
		This is a second-century satirist.  Excuse me for not
		accepting the unverified statement of a comedian two
		centuries after the fact as an authoratitive source.
}			Flavius Josephus
	Eric Rescorla wrote:
	"Not Josephus. That passage is commonly regarded as a forgery.
	As for the AD/BC system, surely you are aware that that was developed
	hundreds of years later, and actually has the WRONG date for Jesus's birth
	(judging from the texts) by a couple of years."
}			Suetonius (AD120)
James J. Lippard writes:
"Suetonius wrote in the second century of a Jewish revolt in Rome during the
reign of Claudius which was instigated by "Chrestus" (Tranquillus 1957, p.
197).  Claudius reigned from 41-54 C.E.; it is unlikely that Christians were
instigating revolt at such an early date, and certainly not under the
leadership of Jesus himself.  It is also unlikely that this is really a
reference to Christians--"Chrestus" was a common name among slaves and 
freemen at the time, and appears more than eighty times in surviving Latin
inscriptions of Rome (Wells 1971, pp.  185-186)."
	Karl Kluge wrote:
	"The only references to Christ in Roman historians (as opposed to
	references to Christians, such as Pliny's report) are an unclear reference
	in Suetonius, who mentions an expulsion of Jews from Rome due to the
	agitation of "Chrestus", and Tacitus who mentions Christ's crucifixtion by
	Pilate in describing Nero's persecution."
}			Plinius Secundus, Pliny the Yunger
	Charles Hedrick writes:
	"Pliny the Younger wrote a letter in 112 describing Christians and
	asking the Emperor what to do about them.  However references to
	Christ are clearly in the context of their belief about him, so this
	does not constitute any independent confirmation."
James J. Lippard writes:
"Among the letters (X, 96-97) of Pliny is one to the Emperor Trajan (in 112
C.E.) asking for advice in dealing with Christians.  His only mention of Jesus
is to say that those who denied Christ were not punished (Pliny 1963, pp.
293-295).  This testimony cannot be considered confirmation of Jesus'
historicity as it is not independent of Christian tradition."
}			Tertullian (AD 197)
James J. Lippard writes:
"   In attempt to counteract this silence, early Christians both forged
documents and alleged that pagan documents attesting to Jesus' existence did
exist.  The best known forgery is a correspondence between Seneca and Paul,
written in Rome in the late fourth century (Johnson 1976, p.  99; Wells 1971,
pp.  189-190).  Another such forgery is a third-century letter from Pilate to
"his emperor Claudius" which insists that the disciples did not steal Jesus'
body from the tomb.  This letter's author overlooked the fact that Pilate was
governor of Judea only until 36 C.E. while Claudius did not become emperor
until 41 C.E. (Hoffman 1984, pp. 65-66).
   The second method was used by Justin Martyr, who states in his first
Apology (Chapter 35) that Roman records of the crucifixion exist; and by
Tertullian, who claimed (in 197 C.E.) that Pilate wrote a report to Tiberius
about the crucifixion and resurrection resulting in the senate convening to
place Christ among the gods.  These claims are rejected by historians (Wells
1971, pp. 189-190).  [McDowell cites both of these claims, one of them without
any disclaimer, the other with a too mild disclaimer.]"
}			Thallus, the Samaritan-born historian
	Even McDowell admits that his writings have "Disappeared".
	Charles Hedrick writes:
	"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian.  McDowell says that he mentioned
	Christ in 52 AD.  However his works are no longer extant, so we have
	only citations of it by others.  I haven't seen any quotations of his
	mentions of Christ."
}			Phlegon, a first century historian
		Whose Chronicales have been lost...
}			letter of Mara Bar-Serapion
		Who complained about how little "The jews gained from 
		executing their wise king".  Doesn't say it was Jesus at all.
}			Justin Martyr
			Who was writing at about AD150 about nonexistent records.
			The quote given is unattributed, but appears to be from
			the psalms.
}			The Jewish Talmuds
	Mark Haefner writes:
	"The Mishnah and Gemara together, are usually known as the Talmud.

	The Gemara (commentaries) is where you would find several references
	to christianity, although, as one might expect, not very favorable.
	This is also where the alleged Roman father of Jesus is mentioned
	(Ben-Pantera), which, as some have suggested, this could also be a
	corruption of the greek Parthenos (virgin)."