HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: honig@cs.cornell.edu (Sue Utter Honig)
Subject: Re: Dogs Have Souls, Don't They?
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 16:40:19 GMT


I've followed this thread, starting innocently enough with the post of
the article about dogs having souls, then going on to Chris Barnes'
response about how he would answer the question, based on his Christian
beliefs.  I've also gone through the numerous posts slamming Chris for
his posting.

While I may not agree with Chris, and I may not even think it was
appropriate for him to post about his religious beliefs in this
newsgroup, I will say that I appreciate that he has done nothing to
perpetuate a religious discussion of this question, even in the face
of some pretty roughly worded criticisms.  Since I've seen him post
about other items since, I would assume he has seen the responses to his
note.

I also wanted to point out a counter example.  What if Chris had been
a Lakota Indian, who's religious beliefs include respect and a more equal
footing spiritually for members of the "four-legged nation"?  What if
he had expressed the belief that he would be reunited with his dog in
the land beyond this one?  Would he have been vilified as he has been
in some posts?  And yet the acts would have been the same - he would
have been posting about his religious beliefs.  Admittedly, his
beliefs are more incendiary than the Lokotas' (well, I guess that
would all depend on your point of view, wouldn't it? :-)

The point to this?  I dunno.  I guess I'm not willing to write Chris
or anyone else off because he made a posting I didn't agree with.
He's not using the net to try and convert anyone.  Let's just go back
to talking about dogs...

Sue Utter Honig
honig@cs.cornell.edu


P.S.  It's interesting that Dog World will be running a series of
articles on the Lakota Indians and their beliefs about animals.  It
started with the April (I think it's April - it's got a Nova Scotia
Duck Toller stamp on the cover) issue.  That's what got me to thinking
about what Chris had done.
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: vln@icpsr.umich.edu (Victoria Neff)
Subject: Re: New Akita puppy
Organization: Inter-University Consortium for Political and Social Research
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 16:49:12 GMT

In article <seurbINNb87@moe.ksu.ksu.edu> terry@eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) writes:

>  ... stuff deleted...

>Hills, who does a lot of research into pet nutrition, recommends
>feeding restricted quantities of puppy food, even to large-breed
>puppies.  

> ... stuff deleted...

I'm curious -- I know a lean dog from a padded one -- do you think it's bad
to let my (16-wk-old Corgi) puppy eat as much as she wants, as long as she's
lean?  I've been letting her eat as much as she wants twice a day, and she
seems to be doing fine (no extra fat).

She's been eating Eukanuba, but I'm switching her over to Purina.  Interesting
differences in nutrition between the two.  The Euk is 32% protein and 21% fat,
where the Purina is 27% protein and 9% fat.  I know baby people need extra fat
for their first two years; I wonder about baby dogs....

Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: rep@icd.ab.com (Robert E. Pappenhagen)
Subject: I'm a wonerful dog
Summary: Bernese Autobiography
Keywords: Bernese Mountain Dogs
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 17:32:34 GMT


The Bernese Mtn Dog.

By Tasha (Shersan: Next Generation) and Booker (Shersan's Something
Special) Pappenhagen.

"First off let us introduce ourselves, I'm Tasha a 2+ year old female"

"You are not - your a Bitch !!! Hi I'm booker the 7 month old wonder puppy"

"Yea - like I wonder if he'll ever get a brain ??? Any way as I understand
it several of you out there want to know more about our race"

"I'll race you to the fire hydrant !!!"

"No not that kind of race - our Breed. Lets see - I'm a wonderfull out-going
wash and wear kind of dog"

"Oh no not another B. A. T. H. - and they think we can't spell"

"As I was saying before stinky puppy interrupted. - We are a working
breed"

"So they say - I'd rather sleep on the couch all day...." 

"As I was saying... we are about the size of a German Sherpard. We were
raised to pull draft carts and to herd cows"

"I've heard of cows - what so special about hearing cows ?"

"AS I WAS SAYING ... We are truley gentle dogs - except some our
kind tend to be very timid."

"Yea - remember when our cousin was really nice the that strange
man who came in when her mon and dad weren't home. You remember -
the one who took everything"

"Booker be quite !!!"

"Come on - you remember !!! Then those there other strangers came
with the flashing lights and badges and made her mom lock her up
before theye would come in !!!"

"Booker - thats enough and stop eating my tail !!! As for further 
reference I'll list the 2 books available and the address of the 
parent club... I'm sure my mon (jnp@po.cwru.edu) or my dad 
(rep@icd.ab.com) would answer any other questions... Opps the
car just pulled in. Booker get off the Kitchen table !!! I
gota go,,, by .... "

Books :

	"The Bernese Mountain Dog" by Diana Cochrane. Published by
	Diana Cochrane. Printed by Elgar Printing, Ltd. Hereford, England.

	"The Complete Bernese Mounatin Dog" By Jude Siimonds. 
	Published by Howell Book House,
	Macmillian Publishing Company, New York, New York.
	ISBN 0-87605-050-X

Parent Club :

	Bernese Mountain Dog Club of America
	1825 Grant Street
	Downers Grove, Il 60515

	or

	Mary Jane Mielke
	S. 37 W. 35234 Hwy, C
	Dousman, Wi. 53118
From: kudzu@tfs.com (Michael Sierchio)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Chewing books (was Re: Strange eating habits)
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:28:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: tfs.1992Apr17.162856.8636
Organization: TRW Financial Systems

In article <1992Apr17.022946.3160@acsu.buffalo.edu> 
	riacmt@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Carol Miller-Tutzauer) writes:
>
>My book The Art of Raising a Puppy by the Monks of New Skete
>has the corner chewed.  Guess who did it?  Yep, the pup....

A critic, no doubt!

-- 
Michael Sierchio                               TRW Financial Systems
kudzu@tfs.com                                     1947 Center Street
                                             Berkeley, CA 94704-1105
(MKS2)                                                  510.704.3380
From: paulw@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM (Paul Welch)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:34:16 GMT
Subject: Re: -- recommendation of obedience schools in south bay ?? --
Organization: HP Palo Alto Fabrication Center
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs

Hi-

You won't find them in the yellow pages, but I can't say enough good
things about Saratoga School For Dogs.  They are located across
Fruitvale Ave from West Valley College.  Absolutely the best experience
my dog and I have ever had.

One more thing-  don't forget, you get what you pay for.
Happy shopping.

Paul Welch
From: X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Snakes and Dogs
Date: 17 Apr 92 19:12:55 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University

In article <1992Apr16.155217.6123@ncar.ucar.edu>
  shan@niwot.scd.ucar.edu (Val Shanahan) writes:
>
>  There are some rattlers in the Boulder area, as well as bull
> snakes.  I have a friend whose large dog was bitten by a rattler
> (on the nose).  He walked his dog back to the truck and took her
> to the vet.  If memory serves me right, the vet did nothing.  He
> said most dogs (large ones anyway) will not have serious problems
> from snake bites, just watch the dog for any reactions and bring
> her back if there seems to be a problem.  He didn't have to take
> the dog back and there were no problems or reactions.
>
 
2 things:
1)  Rattlers don't always inject their venom when they bite
(this is especially true if they bit out of fear).
 
2)  A rattler is plenty potient enough to at least make even the
biggest of dogs sick.  I think your friend's vet was negligent.
 
3)  There are trainers that will "snake-proof" your dog.  I have
never seen one do it, but I have heard (hearsay alert!) that they
will take a non-poisenous snake, put a shock collar on the dog,
and when the dog approaches the snake to investigate, give the
dog the volts.  It's a very effective treatment from what I
have heard.
 
      ----------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |  "Success is the realization of your
x005cb@tamvm1.tamu.edu  |       worthwhile dreams" ---  Dexter Yager
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |  "A goal is a dream being acted upon"
(409) 845-8454 (work)   |                          ---  Don Wilson
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: khare@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Kathy Hare - DCS)
Subject: R.C. Steele address?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 12:35:31 GMT

Could someone please send me the address or telephone number to order
an R.C. Steele catalog.  I live in Ontario, Canada and have never seen 
the catalogs ups here.  From all the posting I have seen it looks like 
they have some very valuable products.  
Thanks Kathy  (owned by Wruffus the Lhasa and Magee the tabby)
From: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Subject: Re: seen the Carl books yet?
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Reply-To: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Organization: ICS Dept., UC Irvine
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:54:24 GMT

In <1992Apr15.100331.2948@vax.muskingum.edu> geschwent@vax.muskingum.edu writes:

>The other reviews reminded me--has everyone checked out the "Carl" books?

>They're children's books, and each just has one or two sentences--one in the
>beginning, and one in the end. I don't want to write more because it could
>spoil them for you. They're absolutely charming, and worth
>going to a bookstore just to check them out! . . . And I don't even have a
>Rottie!

The *are* really cute.  The drawings are well done.  I do get the idea
its a bit of PR for rotties, but what the hell...do check them out.

--Cindy


--
Cindy Tittle Moore -- anxiously awaiting lab puppy in mid-June.

Currently working on rec.pets.dogs FAQ.  Now in seven parts, preliminary
versions of five parts have been posted.  Anticipated "official" posting
(crossposted to news.answers and archival at FTP site) in early May.
From: hudek@polaris.llnl.gov (David Hudek)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Alpha Roll/Beta Bagel/Delta Donut/Mu Muffin...
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:01:07 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Labs, Livermore CA
Originator: hudek@roxanne.llnl.gov

<||>

This is probably a FAQ, but I didn't see it in the still-under-contruction
FAQ articles I skimmed (briefly, I might have missed it if it's there).

What *exactly* is the Alpha Roll?

From the context, it seems(?) to be a method of inducing submission
in a dog by placing it in some particular physical position...
is it just rolling the dog onto its back to expose the belly??
In one article, someone mentioned a modified Alpha Roll where they
held the dog's head down with their hand (but didn't mention how the
rest of the dog was oriented... on its back, belly, side?).
From: X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Dogs Don't Have Souls, Do They??
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:58:11 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University

In article <PREVELIG.92Apr12114738@eastman1.mit.edu>
     prevelig@eastman1.mit.edu (Peter Prevelige) writes:
 
>Besides I'm not afraid of losing him.
>
>I know where to find him again.
 
I really debated about whether I should reply to this post, but I
feel very strongly about this topic.  I also know there are people
that will violently disagree with me.  Also, it is really only a
question for those people that believe in a supreame being
(athiests need not read further, and any flames/arguments from
such will be ignored).
 
   The basic question here is "Do animals (pets) have a soul?"
The answer is an undeniable NO.
 
   Most people that answer yes to that question are confusing
a soul with a spirit (or are equating the two).  There are
three things that make up Mankind (and God).  They are body, soul,
and spirit.  The body is obvious.  The spirit is that part that
determines wheather something is or is not alive (ie. a life-force).
The soul is that part that has a determines our relationship with
God.  Since there is only 1 way to have a relationship with God
(through the acceptance of Jesus Christ) and since that requires
1) free will & 2) having been made in God's image, only Mankind
can have a soul.
 
 
Notes:
    I know that this topic is *highly* contreversial, and as such
    I would be very reluctant to have this discussion carry on
    for a long time.  I will simply ignore any responses that do
    not DIRECTLY relate to the question of animals having a soul
    (ie.  any flames directed at me about other religous beliefs,
    personnal assaults, etc) will be simply ignored.
 
    Anyone wishing to carry this topic out to other related subjects
    not dealing with animals is free to do so to my personall email
    address (no need cluttering up this newsgroup with things that
    don't apply to it).
 
      ----------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |  "Success is the realization of your
x005cb@tamvm1.tamu.edu  |       worthwhile dreams" ---  Dexter Yager
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |  "A goal is a dream being acted upon"
(409) 845-8454 (work)   |                          ---  Don Wilson
From: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: neutering and spaying
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:07:47 GMT
Reply-To: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501

Bailey Brown writes:
> Somebody has got to provide the puppies
> for those of us non-puppy-breeders.

Not a problem.  Visit your local area animal shelters.

"Until there are none, adopt one" -- National Humane Society.

And please don't limit yourself to puppies.

Not that, as we head into puppy season, there will be any
shortage of either puppies or adult dogs.  At most shelters
there will be far more of both than there are homes for.

So, as long as a surplus is the problem, not a shortage,
adopt one from your local shelter.  Until there are no animals
waiting for homes, adopt one.

Thank you.

-- Jon
--
Jon Krueger   jpk@ingres.com                    Oh we pulled the handle out,
and we pushed the handle in, and the steam went to the pistons just the same
From: sss@netcom.com (Small Systems Solutions)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Need Help in Finding Stolen Puppy
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:27:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.g!rjkvf.sss
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <167C38F91.X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu> 
	X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes) writes:
> 
>Some more questions:
>1)  Do you have any suggestions on something to practice on
>    (a piece of leather, an orange, etc)?
>    I doubt the club would be willing to pay a person to do the
>    tattooing.

>2)  Is it painful to the dog (ie.  will we need to hold the dog
>    down)?  I can't imagine that there are many dogs that would
>    just lie there and let it happen if it's uncomfortable.

I use a little lidocaine on the area, applied topically.  The sound and
vibration and confinement are annoying to the dog.  With the owner
present, I have had no trouble tatooing full-grown Rotties, e.g.

>3)  Do we need to shave the hair off of the area to be tattooed?

Yes.  If you're tattooing on the inside thigh, there isn't as much to
remove, anyway.

>4)  What number do you tattoo on (AKC number?)?

First of all, a tattoo isn't useful unless it's registered.  If you plan
to register with the National Dog Registry, you should use a number that
will not change -- you Social Security Number.  There is a one-time fee
for registering the number, and you can then register other dogs with the
same number -- either free, or for a lesser fee (call them on this)

So, you should tatoo:

	NDR XXX-XX-XXXX

Certain breed registries require dogs be tatooed with a litter number
or registration number -- all my GSD puppies get tatooed in their ears
with that number when they're a couple of weeks old.  Ear tatooing is
*not* recommended for older dogs with standing ears, because they may
droop.  And I'm sure that there are animal labs with one-eared dogs, so
be sure your NDR tatoo is  somewhere more - er - permanent.


-- 
Small Systems Solutions                   1563 Solano Avenue, Suite 123
sss@netcom.com                                  Berkeley, CA 94707-2116

The above-expressed opinions aren't necessarily
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Frog!
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:37:49 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ


I saw the first frog of spring in the drainage ditch, called
out ``Susie, frog!''

She hadn't heard the word since last year, but was instantly
over to begin stalking.

A word she'd been waiting for, like a memory

---
Eating small animals is forbidden, but smashing my Dobie
feels is alright.  I remember seeing her last year investigating
something in the grass intently, and saw 4 frog legs sticking out from under
her front paw.
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: schalene@sequent.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for all the "helpful" suggestions
Organization:  Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 19:54:01 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.191547.11682@b15.b15.ingr.com> lynn@b15.b15.ingr.com (Lynn Lee) writes:
>I posted recently and asked for suggestions on a child's pet for a friend.
>
>What I got was a lot of mail saying that insinuated that by even asking
>such a question, I obviously do not love dogs.
>
>A little background here...
>
I'm sure we all responded based on the information provided.  You
didn't tell us what you'd already told your friend or that you had any
knowledge of the time and energy required to have a happy, healthy
pet.  Without this information, you got the best advice we could give.
Personally, I'm still not sure your friend fully realizes what's
required.....(still based on your initial post).  If she did I feel
that your post would have been substantially different.

However, if she's still interested, I think she needs to become more
informed.....read the Monks of New Skete Books at the very least, go
to the library and look at a dog atlas, research breeds and their
characteristics, go to dog shows, talk to breeders, be realistic about
the type of dog that would be best for the environment she can provide....
even though she loves coon hounds (for instance) they love to run and
require plenty of exercise.  Can your friend provide this, or do they
really need a dog bred to be a companion dog (still requires exercise,
but not as much).

All we were trying to do is what whas best for the dog that your
friend would acquire....I don't think you need to get upset with us 
for that.

While tempers do flare on this network, we all have one thing in
common, we care about our dogs.  I have received invaluable advice on
new puppy questions and a lot of caring and support when my Cocker
died.  (More than my own family provided.)  

schalene
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Dogs Don't Have Souls, Do They??
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:13:11 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <167C89A49.X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu> X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes) writes:
>   The basic question here is "Do animals (pets) have a soul?"
>The answer is an undeniable NO.

(Followed by a bunch of Christian religious bullshit.)

The original author of the article was speaking of a "soul" in a sense
that transcends the narrow Christian approach, and which encompasses
far more ground than your silly church would be comfortable with.  Take
your religious nonsense somewhere else; this newsgroup deals in
reality, not mythology, wishful thinking, persecution and prejudice.
--

---Rsk
rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu
From: kika.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Ankle-biting puppy question
Date: 15 Apr 92 18:07:38 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton

> |> My question is:  Is this normal behavior or a sign that he will be
> |> an aggressive biter when he grows up?   Also, should I scold and try
> |> to stop him?  He's only six weeks old, and I've heard that you
> |> shouldn't try to train a pup until five months of age.
> |>
> 
> Training for a puppy should begin the moment you get him.  (No flames yet,
> please, I will explain myself).  6 weeks old is pretty young; a puppy really
> shouldn't be separated from his mom until 8 weeks.  What I mean by training
> is not the "obediance class" but rather, socialization and enforcement of the
> rules.  Puppies are very immature at that age, but they can learn.  Don't
> expect too much at first, they're still trying to sort out their new world.
> A number of obedience schools have "puppy kindergarden" classes; you might wa
> to check with the schools in your area to see what age they accept pups for
> these classes.  (They are just as educational for the owner as the puppy).

Our black labrador is not yet 12 weeks old and has a vocabulary
of 10 phrases already.  Sit, stay, no, drop it, jump, speak, outside,
lay down, go get it, bring it here.  He's playful, affecionate and
had no hangups about doing any of the above.  The key seems to be
make it fun, lots and lots and lots of praise, work (he thinks it's
play) for atleast 10 minutes a day and don't resort to spanking
unless it's seems like there's no other alternative. (Their 
pride will be hurt).  Oops, I forgot "down" so make that 11 phrases.

We've only spanked Bruno twice with a rolled up newspaper.  Once
for running across the street after saying "stay" and once for
digging a three foot "pool" in our back yard at the speed of
sound :)
From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: A tragic accident
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:57:35 GMT
Organization: WP Group

In <ku0ledINNrt5@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu> primeaux@duncan.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux) writes:
dp> Yesterday, in Union County, Tennessee (East Tennessee, not too 
dp> far from Knoxville), a woman was attacked and killed by a chow.  
dp> ...
dp> The couple had gotten the two-year-old dog from a man in North 
dp> Carolina just the day before.  The man did *not* tell them that 
dp> the dog had previously bitten a man and had once killed a smaller 
dp> dog.
dp> ...
dp> Now, just a couple of personal observations.  First, I think the 
dp> media is handling this tragedy in a responsible manner.  
dp> Secondly, as owner of a *very* docile, laid back, neutered, 
dp> pound-rescued chow-mix, I am somewhat un-nerved by this story -- 
dp> even though we have had Roosevelt for about a year now and dot 
dp> him as a puppy.  
dp> 
dp> Any comments?  

From article <10806@cs.tulane.edu>, by feldman@cs.tulane.edu (Damon Feldman):
df> Yes.  If the media really had handled this incident responsibly 
df> people like you who have had neutered chow mixes since puppyhood
df> (the dog's puppyhood, that is) wouldn't be un-nerved.

Please explain why you think the media behaved in an irresponsible manner 
in this particular instance.

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
From: mm@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (Michael Mahler)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Dogs Don't Have Souls, Do They??
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:44:54 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Marlboro, MA.

In article X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes) writes:
...
>The soul is that part that has a determines our relationship with
>God.  Since there is only 1 way to have a relationship with God
>(through the acceptance of Jesus Christ) and ...

	Sez you.

	Man, I never figured I'd have to deal with this crap
	in rec.pets.dogs.  

	Eeeeeeeeeehawwwwww.

	Michael


-- 
"I can't believe I threw up in front of the Prime Minister."
"Face it George, you threw up ON the Prime Minister"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed by me are not endorsed by Stratus Computer unless noted.