From: czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: FOR WHATEVER IT'S WORTH
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:25:47 GMT
Reply-To: czl30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Aug20.201052.21811@meaddata.com> joyce@meaddata.com writes:
>I am convinced that people will believe what they want to believe so I
>could argue all I want until I'm blue in the face and people will
>still believe what they want. I respect that and hopefully, you'll

No you don't. Otherwise why would you post this rubbish?

>respect my right to do the same. It's the first (and last) time I will
>ever be in this newsgroup but if the following is true from FAQ and I
>quote: "Many atheists would be happy to believe in the existence of a
                                                                     '
>God; all that they ask is that he provide convincing direct evidence
 ''''

But not necessarily your god.

>of his existence." then maybe it's worth it to put my 2-cents' piece
>in.
>
>It seems like a good number have had very unfortunate experiences with
>"organized religion" and so-called "Christians". I have too but I

I have, but I was already an atheist (I had just never heard that word
until my schoolteacher called me an atheist when I was about 8).

>cannot use those as a basis for my belief in God since all humans are
>fallible and will always fail me at one time or another. Sad also, is
>the fact that too many people are masquerading as Christians when they
>really are not, based on the criteria that Jesus Christ himself, the

Oh goody, the "but they're not Real Christians" argument.

>center person in Christianity, has put forth. As a result, people like
>Mahatma Gandhi, for example, got turned off by "Christians" even
>though he said he liked Jesus Christ.

Do you think the Mahatma would have been a christian because he liked
Jesus, when he didn't believe in the Jewish god (remember that
Jesus was a Jew) or Jesus's claim that he was the son of the Jewish god
(assuming that Jesus actually existed)? Christianity as a religion was
started after Jesus's death by the apostles. Your arguments here are an
example of how people get 'turned off by "Christians"'.
>
>I have to admit, I am not here to convince you all that there is a
>God.

That's good.

>     There will always be arguments in people's minds for and against
>it, it's what people choose to believe. I just ask that you consider

Did you read the rest of the FAQ? Most atheists do not believe that any
god (including your "God") exists.

>the person of Jesus Christ, the most loved and most hated person who

First of all, prove that this person actually existed.

>ever lived, all because He claimed to be God. There are 3 possibilities to His
>claim, 1) He was not telling the truth and He knew it which makes Him
>a liar; 2) He was not telling the truth and He did not know it which

I am an atheist. If somebody came to me and told me he was a god/
a god/God/Jwvh/Allah/Zeus/Odin or whatever, I would assume he was
either joking or a lunatic.

>makes Him a lunatic; and 3) He was telling the truth. Other people

Atheists do not believe in any god, including your "God". So (3) is
out.

If he existed, how about '4) he was just plain mistaken'?

>more knowledgeable that I am can give dissertation-like arguments to
>the above but I just present mine simply: 1) If He was lying, then He
>chose to suffer and die for a lie, which makes Him really stupid and
>all His followers nuts; for a lie, Paul was beheaded, Peter was sawed
>in two, Stephen was stoned, etc. A study of these people's lives show
>quite a transformation after they had seen Jesus rise from the dead;
>2) A lunatic could not possibly give a message
>like the Sermon on the Mount and would be illogical in speech and
>thought; a study on Jesus` life could easily refute this; 3) He must
>be then telling the truth and all of us either reject or accept Him
>for what He claimed to be and the consequence of our choice. It is

1. Lots of people follow charismatic leaders blindly and get themselves
   killed. Ever heard of of Jonestown? Or Hitler?

2. Every religion (at least those with fundies who feel they have to
   convince other people) has similar arguments.

3. Every religion has its legends of heroes who died for it. This doesn't
   mean that it is the one and only Truth (tm).

>a moot point for me to argue about whether God exists or not; there
>are too many people who already believe God exists and yet has chosen
                         ''''''''''''''''''''''''''

I don't know any atheists who do! Do you know any?

>to ignore the person of Jesus Christ. To those who are interested, I
>suggest studying the lives of your ex-contemporaries: Dr. Charles
                                    '''''''''''''''''
>Joad, Josh McDowell, and C.S. Lewis. At least 2 of these people have
       '''''''''''''

I didn't realise McDowell had died. I suggest you find out what
a contemporary is (hint: use a dictionary).

>started to write books that have sought to destroy the "myth of Christianity".
>
>To those who seem to blame God for every vile thing that happens in
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Are you stupid or do you just not understand what an atheist is?

>this world and asks why He does not fix it, I would just like to say
>that He will, He is just being patient because He is not willing that
>any should perish. He gave us free will, and we all have chosen to
>make a mess of our world by doing as we pleased yet we blame Him for
>it. I hope I don't sound like I`m preaching but whatever y'all choose
>to believe, mark God's Word on this that one day:  ".. EVERY knee shall bow and

You are pre-supposing your god. Not a very clever thing to do.

>EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." See y'all there!

This is not a logical consequence of your earlier argument.

**************************************************************************

This kind of stupid argument only convinces the converted. I just wish
that the fundies would actually think about their arguments sometimes
before using them:

   (1) Find out what an atheist is. An atheist doesn't believe in your
       god, strange as it may seem to you. But then he doesn't believe
       in Allah, Rama, or the gods of any of the other religions either.
       So arguments that presuppose the god will hardly convince an
       atheist.

   (2) An atheist doesn't hold your scriptures in the same kind of esteem
       that you do, because he doesn't believe in the god that they describe.
       But that doesn't mean that the atheist hasn't read these scriptures.
       The atheist probably just regards them as legends, and may also have
       read the scriptures and legends of other religions as well.

   (3) Before you put forward any argument, try and reverse the situation.
       Imagine that somebody with a different religion to yours were to
       make a similar argument to you. How would you react? Try substituting
       another religion's god, prophet, scriptures, followers or creed
       and see whether it sounds sensible to you. If it doesn't, then it
       will hardly sound sensible to people who don't share your belief.

   (4) Remember that people with other religions are just as certain in
       their faith (or lack of it) as you are in yours. A muslim (say)
       is as likely to accept your version of the Truth, as you are to
       accept his version. I know yours is the only "real Truth". But
       then, so is his the "only real Truth"!

Chris Lee
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,soc.motss,sci.physics,alt.sex