HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: heedah@tc.fluke.COM (Hide Iba)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: rec.guns
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:21:36 GMT

I've been reading the rec.guns for a while. 
I finally have a question I'd like to ask the other readers.
Please let me know how to post the following:

I recently purchased a Walther P-38 (9mm) in good condition.
Can anyone tell me a source of the owner's  manual or other books showing
"knockdown/cleaning" instructions?
Is there a good source of extra magazines and grips?
What should I feed it?  It seems to like my FMJ but would it take anything
else?


Thanks for your help!
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: +P+ Ammunition
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:41 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1i3futINN7uc@mirror.digex.com> curt@access.digex.com (curt williams) writes:
}I keep hearing the +P and +P+ ammunition will eventually harm by
}handguns.  I'd like to use the 125 grain 9mm CorBon ammo in my
}Ruger P89-- some people say I can, some say I can't.

If I may suggest the obvious:  Why not call Ruger and ask them?  That's
what I did when I was worried about my SIG (except I called SIGARMS, of
course (-: ).

BTW, I also called COR-BON and they confirmed their 9mm +P is loaded
withing SAAMI maximums.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                "If you can't stand solitude,
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  perhaps others find you boring
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        as well."  -- Mark Twain
From: Panu.Kolju@lut.fi (Panu Kolju)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: To Class III question of M 31
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:09:29 GMT
Organization: Lappeenranta University of Technology, Finland

...Well, when I answered to Ed's question about M 31 (Suomi SMG), the moderator
said that its "rugged" gun. I didn't know that it means in use there something
like: "someting is capable of withstanding rough treatment and still
functioning".  According to dictionary I had it means "roughly made or not that
good quality". So, I'm sorry about possible confusion in this and apologize to
Mr moderator as well.
	[MODERATOR: No apology necessary! Its nice to hear from someone who
	 knows first hand about the Suomi.]
"Suomi" is rugged gun, but since the lock stays open when in loaded position, 
its easy to get sand or something else into it that might affect to it's 
action in some cases.

Panu K.
-- 
****************Adress: Sampolantie 2 C 16           Phone: 90-256 862(Tuusula)
* Panu Kolju   *======= 04310 Tuusula FINLAND. or:   ======  or:
* kolju@lut.fi *        Punkkerikatu 1 B 5                  953-20191(Lappeen-
****************        53850 Lappeenranta 85 FINLAND                 ranta)
From: jgm@cs.brown.edu (Jonathan Monsarrat)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Reality in movies
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:23:04 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Brown University

Sometimes in television or movies (such as "The Terminator") I
see someone getting thrown back by the force of a bullet hitting them.

As far as I can guess from physics, bullets don't have enough mass to
do this, even if their entire velocity was stopped against a kevlar vest.

Am I wrong?

Thanks

--- Jon Monsarrat --- Brown University --- jgm@cs.brown.edu ---
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloading Info for .44 Automag
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:21 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <1if15dINNmoa@shelley.u.washington.edu> parker@cac.washington.edu (Michael Parker ) writes:
#
#I will be aquiring a .44 Automag (different from a .44 magnum automatic)
#and I need some good sources of information for reloading purposes.  I
#could really use a good book or two that goes into loads using both the
#.308 and 30-06 cases, along with the ususal powder and bullet specifications
#and reccomendations.
#
#I would also like to hear from people of re-load for .44 automags and would
#appreciated any advice.  Also, I understand that one can use standard 
#.44 magnum dies for these loads - its just a matter of which casings being
#used.
#
While it's been a _long_ time since I made .44 Automag cases (from .308) and
loaded them, and while I don't have my manuals here at work, I'd be _very_
suprised if .44 Remington Mag dies could be used with .44 Automag rounds.

Aside from case dimension differences, the Rem Mag dies give a lovely roll
crimp, and since the Automag headspaces on the case mouth, this gets very
tricky.  Even the Automag dies (these were from RCBS) could be very easily
adjusted to get a round that won't fire.  I know this from experience 8(.

The forming dies we used were also RCBS and involved a cut-and-file die,
and a hold-it-and-ream-out-the-inside die.

Hope this helps.


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Major 9
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:20 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <9301061530.aa28534@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#
#Tim Moore writes:
##The Super .38 ACP is a straight walled case.  The 9x23 as developed by
##C.P. Bullets is of a tapered design looking more like a longer 9mm para.
#
#Thanks, Tim. I thought that C.P.s 9x23 was really a rimless .38 Super -
#
--------------------------deleted----------------------

#I also note references to ".38 Stupid" on this thread, which seem to
#imply that the .38 Super is not an ideal round for use in high-capacity
#semi-autos. Considering that it's been around since before most if not
#all IPSC shooters were born, is that a surprise?

But of course it's much newer than 9mm Parabellum.  Are you telling us
something here? 8) (winkwink)

Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Slam-fire Translation
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:27:47 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <9301090728.AA22894@zippy.cs.UMD.EDU> C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:
#
#"Slam-fire" means that the gun fired when the bolt closed, without
#someone touching the trigger.
#
#My theory:
#
#The guy got the gun and didn't bother to clean it before shooting.
#There was probably dirt or gunk in the bolt, causing the firing pin
#to stick forward.  When he released the bolt, the gun fired.  Since
#he didn't have it under control, the gun proceeded backwards.  The
#firing pin remained stuck, causing all rounds to chamber and fire.
#
Evidently, the "slam-fire" and "doubling"(multiple firing with one
trigger pull) ARE common enough with SKS & AK carbines to warrant
a warning to test the guns before you load up a magazine and start
blasting.  (The warning and test procedure is right in the manuals.)
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: cp 9x23
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:45:12 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <9301061530.aa28534@claudius.pica.army.mil>, erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#
#Tim Moore writes:
##The Super .38 ACP is a straight walled case.  The 9x23 as developed by
##C.P. Bullets is of a tapered design looking more like a longer 9mm para.
#
#Thanks, Tim. I thought that C.P.s 9x23 was really a rimless .38 Super -
#can't trust everything you read.
#

#However, the 9mm Largo/Bergmann-Bayard and the 9mm Steyr are both 9x23
#rimless cases with a taper, that look a lot like a longer 9mm Para.

Some data taken from The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions.
Some data from Handloader magazine, (mostly OAL's).
All the info for 9x23s and 9x21+p+ came from page 139 of 
the Sep/Oct 1992 American Handgunner.



Name				length		rim/head	neck	oal
38 Super			.90		.406/.384	.384	1.280
9mm Devel			.890		.380		.379	1.116
9mm lugar/parabellum/9x19/nato	.754		.392		.380	1.169
CP 9x21 +p+			.830		.392		.380	1.169
9mm Mauser Pistol		.98		.390		.376	1.38
9mm Super Cooper		.89		.379		.374	1.136
9mm Win Mag			1.160		.394		.379	1.550
9mm Steyr			.900		.380		.380	1.30
9mm Largo/Bergmann-Bayard	.91		.392		.375	1.132
CP 9x23S (the correct name for 9x23 by CP bullets)
				.900		.392		.380	1.280



Now for a replacement for the 38 super, you want something that you can
do a reamer conversion on [ie leave every dimension the same or increase it]
and the OAL has to be in the same general range as the 38super.

Of all the ones listed above, only the Steyr and the Largo fit the bill. 
However, I think you would have to do breach face work to make the extractor
ejector, etc work with a .380 head size instead of the .405 head size of
the 38 super. The .392 head of the Largo and CP 9x23s is close enough to 38super
that I don't think any work would have to be done. Why they didn't just go to a 
+p+ 9mm Largo, I don't know. the extra 0.010" in case length would be a benifit
I would think. Of course there is always the danger that SAMMI has set pressure
specs for the 9mm Largo. . . 

Of course, to really get that comp working, go to a 9mm Super Cooper. The
book claims 2000fps with a 90grain bullet. :)
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Non-Resident permits in R.I & CT.
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:21:36 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <C0JE3r.L7w@apollo.hp.com> rielly_s@apollo.hp.com (Stephen M. Rielly) writes:
#Does anyone have inforamtion on how to obtain non-resident
#permits in R.I and CT.? I called Providence and they say that 
#it iss issued through the Attorney general's office. 
#When I called Hartford they said that there is a non-resident
#permit but one must obtain a "local" permit first from a police
#chief, and if one would not give me one, try anorther town.
#Seems to be a strange system. Anyone dealt with these states?
#Email me or post here. thanks.
#
#-Steve

Rhode Island requires that you apply in person, and also take a marskmanship
test (which can be gien by any police or NRA instructor).  The permit will
list the tester, and the caliber of the test weaponl, which is then the
maximum you are allowed to carry.  And yes, they go by stated caliber :
a .38 is considered a "bigger" caliber than a .357, and a .44 mag smaller than
a .45 acp.  They can be sticky about "need", but it can be done.

                                        rob b.
From: rani@barsoom.nhh.no (Ragnar Nielsen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Makarov (sp?) pistols?
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:18:21 GMT
Organization: Norwegian School of Economics

weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:



#Does anyone have experience with this gun?

#I was at a gun show this weekend, and looked at a Makarov (sp?) 380 double 
#action pistol which appeared to be a clone of the Walther PPK.  It was 2-t
#with a blued slide and a shiny (stainless?) frame.  The decocker lever on 
#the slide was very stiff.  The price was only about $150.00.  At this price, 
#I almost bought it.  But I thought I'd ask for any net wisdom on this gun.  

Just a little sidenote here:

If the gun was an original Makarov, it would not be chambered in .380, but
rather in 9mm Makarov, a round quite similar to .380 (and Makarovs will
chamber and fire .380 more or less reliably), but far hotter.

I believe the general idea when the Soviets invented the cartridge was
to make a small weapon with a powerful load, but one that would also
chamber a round commonly found in the West, if regular ammo should ever be
in shortage during a wartime operation.

As I recall, one of the gun magazines ran a test of the Makarov some time
ago (during -92), so check out back issues of Guns&Ammo and the likes.

The reviewer reported, if memory serves me correctly, that little, if any,
accuracy was lost when firing .380 instead of the original 9mmMak.

regards,

ragnar
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Sale on Jane's books
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:22:46 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University


  The "Jane's" series of book have always been so expensive that
they are essentially unaffordable.  I have seldom seen them on
sale (except for the Fighting Ships/Aircraft books.)  However the
new Barnes & Noble sale catalog has a whole page (16 books) of these
on sale.  Particularly interesting are

Jane's Infantry Weapons, 1990-91 "An illustrated catalog 
covering everything from personal weapons like pistols, rifles and 
sub-machine guns to crew-served weapons, including cannons, anti-tank
weapons & ancillary equipment like surveillance devices, more.
8 1/2" x 12 1/2". B&W photos. 896 pp."  Ian V. Hogg, editor
1856608 Pub. $185 / SALE $49.95

  This is somewhat similar to Ezell's Small Arms of the World.
It gives less historical and other information, but it gives more
detail on what current armed forces are using and on suppliers.
It is obviously more up to date, and so one would probably prefer
to have both.  It also covers more than just small arms.

Jane's Security & Co-in Equipment, 1990-91  "Catalogs firearms
(pistols, sub-machine guns, assault & sniping rifles, shotguns, etc.);
operational equipment (vehicles & motorcycles, aircraft, boats,
etc.); riot control equipment; command, control communications
and intelligence equipment; and armour and protection.  8 1/4" x
11 1/2".  B&W photos.  607 pp"
1856640  Pub $135 / SALE $24.95

  I haven't seen this book, and it does seem to overlap with
the Infantry Weapons book.  (If you have to ask what "co-in"
means, then you probably aren't interested in this book. :-)

  Note that these aren't "catalogs" in the usual sense, they 
give descriptions for each armed force and try to describe what
is actually in use.  Also they give tables of suppliers and
have advertising (oriented to military purchasers.)

  You can order from them by phone (201 767 7079) 24 hrs/ 7 days
or by mail (126 Fifth Ave, NY, NY 10011) and they take credit
cards.  They charge a Shipping/Insurance fee of $4.50 for
orders $25 - 44.99 and $5.50 for larger orders.  This appears to
be catalog D44M.  If you are interesting getting Jane's military
titles be sure and look at this - if you aren't interested you
should go to your library and check these out and see if you
just don't know what you're missing!

--henry schaffer
From: keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 7.62mm ammo
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:17 GMT
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation

In case its of interest to someone, I pulled apart a round of 7.62mm
NATO ammo (Canadian made).  The powder looks similar to the IMR 4895
that I use & weighed about 41.5gr.  The bullet is a FMJ boattail
design with an exposed lead base & weighed approx 145gr.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng |  "Be sure brain is engaged before    |
| CMC                      |   putting mouth in gear"             |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |                                      |
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .45 Long Colt vs .357 & .44 Magnum
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:50:04 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

ctownsend@atlas.nafb.trw.com writes:

#	I was hoping someone could look up some ballistics for me . . .

#	I'm curious how the 45 Colt (Long Colt) compares to .357 Magnum and
#.44 Magnum in terms of velocity and energy (for their respective bullet
#weights).  Also, I picked up some Federal High Power Semi-Wadcutter Hollow
#Points;  The salesman told me these are hotter than the typical 45 Colt load.
#What are the ballistics?  Also, I've read somewhere that it may not be prudent
#to use 'modern' gunpowder in older guns; How do I know if the gun is designed 
#for modern powders or not (or how old it is, for that matter)? Is it stamped 
#with a symbol or something?

	Most .45 Colt factory loads are mild, because of some of the
older guns out there.  You'd have to tell more about your individual
gun for anyone to comment on it.  The hottest .45 Colt I've ever heard 
of from a factory is aprox equal to .45 ACP, but less than .45 ACP +P.

255 gr at +-  750-950 fps.

Lemme see, for Federal, they claim
.45 Colt	225 gr	900 fps		405 ft-lbs
.44 Mag		240 	1180 		741
.357 Mag	158 	1235		535

	The .45 Colt can be handloaded past .44 magnum levels, but
only in _some_ decent modern guns.   A call to the manufacture of 
your gun before trying any funny stuff would be wise.

JD
From: wolfgang@wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS Slam-fire/full auto = $1.4 million
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:02 GMT
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA

71773.3463@CompuServe.COM (Brian  T. Millin) writes:
#From the San Jose Mercury News, 1/7/93
#To paraphrase, two years ago John E. Murray let the bolt drop on an SKS-47
#sold as the "Cowboy Companion" by Navy Arms when it slam-fired and went
#full auto. It tore loose from his grip and moved backward, firing one
#bullet through his back killing him instantly. The rifle dumped 7 rounds
#in less than one second, lodging under the tire of his truck 38 feet away.

One thing that I find interesting is that the SKS's I've seen sold
here are without a pistol grip.  They all have what looks like a
normal hunting style stock.  They don't even a the silly-looking
"thumb-hole" version of the pistol grip.  Does anyone know, if these
are indeed the original Chinese stocks, or if they are specials,
designed to pass the US's importability tests?

The reason I bring this up is that it sounds like any rifle is a
fairly slippery eel to keep hold of if the butt of the stock isn't on
your shoulder if it starts slam firing.  Without anything to grab hold
of the rifle gets yanked backwards out of your hands, and proceeds to
shoot the rest of its magazine in the general direction of your back.
Not a pleasant thought. I'm wondering if a more reasonable "pistol
grip" style stock wouldn't have prevented the slam-fires from turning
into tragedies.

How much force is the SKS rifle yanking back with?  My quick back of
the envelope calculations seem to indicate something around 10 lbs.
Once it breaks free of your grip the rifle should be moving back with
4 miles/hr. more with each shot (neglecting friction).  After 10 shots
- thats 40 mph.

Rifle velocity after a single shot:

    Velocity(rifle) = Velocity(bullet) * Mass(bullet) / Mass(rifle)

Note: these number are just round number estimates. They should be
good enough though.

    1000 m/s bullet. (3300 ft/sec.)
       5 gram bullet (77 grain.)
       3 kg rifle    (6.6 lb)

   Velocity(rifle) = 1000 * 5 / 3
		   = 1.6 meters/sec
   or:
		   = 1.6 m/s * 3600 ((m/s)/(km/hr))
		   = 6.0 km/hr (or: 4mph)

Assuming a cyclic rate of 10 rounds/second (600 rpm), which is
probably low by a factor of 2, we get the following forces:

   Acceleration(rifle) = velocity_increase / second
		       = 1.6 m/s * 0.1 sec
		       = 16 m/s^2
   or:
		       = 16 m/s^2 / 9.8 m/s^2
		       = 1.6 g's (gravity)

On a 3 kg rifle 1.6 g's this would feel like lifting a 4.8kg (10.6
lb.)  weight.  That is, an *extra* 10 lbs pulling backwards on the
rifle.  While 10 lbs may not sound like much, it sure is a lot if
you're not expecting it.  I'm sure many people would have the rifle
pulled backwards out of their hands by this.

Now if the cyclic rate is closer to 1200 rpm, we get about twice that
force or about 20 lbs...

-wolfgang
-- 
Wolfgang Rupprecht    wolfgang@wsrcc.com (or) decwrl!wsrcc!wolfgang
Snail Mail:           39469 Gallaudet Drive, Fremont, CA 94538-4511
From: vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Nationwide Sports Distributors
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:14 GMT

I'm curious to know whether anyone else has ever had problems
in dealing with these folks.  I sent in an order on November
25 for a Smith & Wesson 915 and some other random goodies (a
couple of 1911 magazines for me and some dies for the customer).
I had called them, and then sent a copy of my FFL along with
the paper order, including my work and home numbers in case
there were any problems with the order (as I always do).  The
young lady on the phone assured me that they had them in stock
and would fill the order as soon as they got the FFL, etc.
     They hold orders on company and personal checks for 25
days before shipping.  Fine, should still be shipped before the
New Year, which is when the customer needed it (a present).
The order came yesterday, and no 915, which is back-ordered.
To say I'm upset is to put it mildly.  I can forgive the late
shipping, which could be due to the holiday rush.  I can forgive
the young lady on the phone for saying that they had them, if
she wasn't aware that they had recently sold the last one.  But
damn it, why couldn't they call me and let me know that they
didn't have it in stock any longer, instead of waiting a month
and a half and then listing it on the invoice as a back-order?
Grrr...  The worst part is that the customer is a very close
friend.
     My advice to the net is to benefit from my mistake in
dealing with Nationwide Sports Distributors.  I know that is
harsh sounding, but I've never seen anybody with worse service.
Except the time I had to send a Ruger M77 back to the factory
three times and demand to speak to the manager of the service
department before they finally fixed it (it came through
defective NIB) -- but we expect that from a gun grabber, don't
we?  (Sorry for the t.p.a-ish outburst.)


John

--
******************************************************************************
               John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu
       Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  1000 MIPS GaAs F-RISC Project
       --"If sand didn't irritate oysters, there would be no pearls"--
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: light .44 Magnum loads?
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:28 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1ik8vsINNbdm@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar) writes:
#In article <1992Dec30.134200.15155@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
## ...
##I think that the deletion of 680 is a tragedy (although
##Accurate Arms has a powder (1680) which may well be close (or the
##same)). 
#
#I quite agree about the loss of 680 though. I wonder if Accurate Arms lists
#any loads with 1680 for the magnum pistols.

  In the AA Loading Guide 5th ed they say about 1680

Rifle Propellant - A double base, ball propellant developed
specifically for the 7.62 x 39 cartridge (and its ballistic cousin,
the 30 Herrett), in which it performs well due to its excellent
loading density.  It is the best powder for the 22 Hornet.  Also
suitable for small capacity cases such as the T/CU series and the
.222 Remington.

  They don't give any listing of it for the following Magnums:.357, .41,
.44, but do give recommended loads for the following: .357 Maximum,
.445 Super Mag, . 45 Win. Mag., and .454 Casull.

--henry schaffer
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Major 9
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:26:03 GMT


Tim Moore writes:
#The Super .38 ACP is a straight walled case.  The 9x23 as developed by
#C.P. Bullets is of a tapered design looking more like a longer 9mm para.

Thanks, Tim. I thought that C.P.s 9x23 was really a rimless .38 Super -
can't trust everything you read.

However, the 9mm Largo/Bergmann-Bayard and the 9mm Steyr are both 9x23
rimless cases with a taper, that look a lot like a longer 9mm Para.

Has anybody told C.P. Bullets that they've "developed" an 80-year-old
cartridge? :) 

I also note references to ".38 Stupid" on this thread, which seem to
imply that the .38 Super is not an ideal round for use in high-capacity
semi-autos. Considering that it's been around since before most if not
all IPSC shooters were born, is that a surprise?


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."