From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 22:02:41 GMT

rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes: 
> gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) writes:
>    rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:
>    >Quite frankly, I get worried
>    >when I see people emphasize group affiliation, because it tends to
>    >emphasize group exclusion, which leads to ignorance and intolerance (and
>    >worse...).
> 
>    I see your point, but I have to disagree.  You are setting up a straw
>    man.  I've discussed this topic often, but from a different point of
>    view.  I have a problem with people who feel that they must disparage
>    other groups in order to build up their own.  If one is proud to be a
>    member of one's group, he/she should stress its positive aspects rather
>    than the negatives of all others.  The former emphasizes inclusion,
>    while the latter stresses exclusion.
> 
> For groups that I join out of my own free will, that's easy enough.  I
> just find it hard to see either positive or negative qualities to what's
> basically one's ancestry.
> 
> But I will admit that I'm particularly dismayed when I see Jews
> disparage others for reasons of ancestry or belief (or lack thereof).
> Our history should make VERY clear the dangers of doing that, even from
> a selfish point of view.  This is particularly in reference to a recent
> thread about scouting that's jumped back and forth for a while.
> Atheist-bashing and gay-bashing are things that, IMHO, Jews should stay
> *VERY* well away from.  If nothing else, the danger of backfire is too
> great.  Now, I guess I take all this further than most people do, and
> I'm leery of "automatic" classification into any group, even for the
> best of reasons -- good reasons can in time become bad ones.

As I stated, I am distressed whan I see any individual disparage any
other for reasons of ancestry or belief.  Your discomfort with automatic
membership, because "good reasons can in time become bad ones," is another
straw man.  Don't LET them become bad reasons.  You must continually
engage in introspection to assure that your reasons are always positive.
And if you find those who denigrate others in order to pump themselves
up, help them see that this is unnecessary.

>    If I want to express to my kids why I'm proud to be a Jew, I will
>    not say that the non-Jews are evil.  First, because I don't believe
>    that, and second because I would sound as if I'm speaking at the
>    Republican convention.  Where's the beef?  And what happens when
>    the inevitable evil Jew appears?  What do I say then?
> 
> No disagreement here.  What bothers me is when people take pride in the
> actions of others.  I don't think that it's right to feel pride in what
> someone did years ago who never knew me -- it isn't something I had any
> part in doing.  Similarly, I don't see any reason to feel shame in what
> someone else did, if that person had no connection to me and couldn't
> have had any.  Nothing wrong with working as a team, but there's a lot
> of difference between being part of the team and being a spectator.  I
> recognize that you haven't said that here, but I hear an uncomfortable
> amount of this.

Well, why restrict your sense of non-participation to only those
people you've never met.  It would seem to me that you should have
no pride or shame in the actions of others unless you yourself
contributed materially to the actions in question -- and then, only
in a proportional sense.  Thus, even if your parents were renowned
(or despised, chas veshalom) for particular acts, you should be
numb to any acknowledgment thereof.  I might even extend this to
children, though I suppose it's more complicated there.

I feel differently.  If I voluntarily join a particular group, I
probably do so for a reason, sedentary as I am.  It may be the past
accomplishments of the group, for instance, and I see nothing wrong
in that.  I may even feel proud to be a member of such an organization.
Did I help its name?  Not at all.  What is this pride then?  Perhaps
it involves my self-proclaimed good sense to join so illustrious a
group.  Perhaps it's more a feeling of comeraderie with fellow members,
even those I've never met.  Perhaps "pride" is not the best word.
Perhaps it's a desire to live up to the lofty example set by others.
And perhaps it's not only a desire, but a willingness to subject
myself to the possible sacrifices involved.

Conversely, if my organization has a bad name, I may feel some
degree of shame, a sense that it is incumbent on me to make good.
Perhaps it is a feeling that I don't want others stereotyping me
with "them."  Granted, if everyone felt as you do, then we shouldn't
really have the stereotypes, since everyone would presumably view
all people as individuals.  Perhaps people shouldn't feel the need
to justify their actions.  But that's not human nature.  (And we
both agree that you're a member of the one group afflicted by that
illness :-)  Perhaps my "shame" is more a feeling that I want to
distance myself from these actions, even though I am still a member
of the group -- a form of justification for my continued membership.

>    No.  There are many wonderful aspects of Jewish life.  I want my
>    kids to experience Shabbat, with the whole family together.  No
>    faking it with the TV.  I want them to feel the love of Jewish
>    life, and with it the responsibilities to one's people, family and
>    self.  In short, the "family values."  [Pat Buchanan, eat your
>    heart out.  Oops!  I guess I slipped. :-)]
> 
> Personally, I feel no connection to any of these things.  Why can't the
> whole family get together whenever it feels like it, for no external
> reason whatsoever?

They can, and that's a wonderful thing.  It's not always so easy though.
If the family is large, sometimes it's difficult to find a mutually
convenient time to gather.  (Of course, this is not the reason one
"joins" a religion anyway.  It's just one beautiful aspect of such a
life.)

One nit to pick though.  Your defining religious life as "external"
reasons is unfair.  It is as internal as any aspect of your life --
certainly no less so than scheduling issues and conflicts in your
ideal family.

> As for "responsibilities to one's people", all too often it comes out
> sounding like the recent thread on Hurricane Andrew -- that there are
> many Jews suffering in Miami.  True, but there are lots of people
> suffering in southern Florida who aren't Jews, and the reason for their
> suffering has nothing to do with the fact that they're Jews, just that
> they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (and most of
> the suffering was farther south, which doesn't have too great of a
> Jewish population).  Emphasizing the Jewish nature of the tragedy seems
> parochial, when what happened had nothing to do with who one was, simply
> where one lived.

Again, I thought we were discussing why YOU don't like the membership
idea.  You are showing what you dislike in others' parochial views,
and I agree.  But you know better, or we wouldn't be having this
discussion.  I have plenty of responsibilities in life, as do we all.
Some of those responsibilities are to myself.  Others are to my family.
Still others to my people.  And others to all people, and the world
itself.

A major principle in Judaism is that all Jews are responsible for
one another.  I don't see this as being a vice any more than my
feeling responsible to mankind as a whole may be.  My responsibility
is not to make non-Jews' lives difficult.  Likewise, my responsibilty
to my fellow human is not to be viewed as a desire to harm other
animals.

Perhaps with a true sense of this responsibility we can take pride
in the accomplishments of our fellow.  Conversely, we may also share
the shame when things don't go quite right.

-Don Gertler