HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hellmond@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Peter H. Hellmonds)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: The Purpose of rec.org.mensa (?)
Date: 8 Apr 92 07:05:12 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU

streynol@es.stat.ncsu.edu (STEPHEN TODD REYNOLDS) writes:

>I'm not  trying to defend Mr. Tai--just his right to express  himself.  

>Mr. Steiner:  If you  can't say  something nice..... get
>out of  here, and  take your foul  language with you.  You're  not helping,
>and yes, you are hurting, not just yourself and Mr. Tai, but Mensa's image.


I totally agree. Mensa does not need to be represented in public with obscene
language and noone who criticizes Mensa, even if completely on the wrong
side of the argument, needs to accept such verbal abuse.

-- Peter


-- 
Peter H. Hellmonds - Princeton University - Princeton, NJ, 08544, USA 
Tel (609) 683-4893 (home) - (609) 258-4804 (off) - Fax (609) 258-2809 
Internet: hellmond@phoenix.Princeton.EDU ------ BITNET: hellmond@PUCC 
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance".   --  Derek Bok
From: Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: SAT scores and Mensa
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:53:01 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.111104.1581@brandonu.ca>, mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:
> 
> In article <1992Apr14.021642.13635@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, peltz@cerl.uiuc.edu (Steve Peltz) writes:
> > Ok, if y'all can leave off your stupidity for a bit, I'd like to ask a
> > question.
> > 
> > An earlier comment implied that Mensa will accept the result of the SAT
> > for qualifying for membership. Is that correct? How recent does it need
> > to be? And what are the cutoff limits?
> > 
> > I've heard good and bad about Mensa, and would be interested in hearing
> > anecdotal evidence both ways.
> > -- 
> You'll hear plenty of the good, but not much of the bad because the Mensa
> bashers are scared of the Mensa basher bashers :)

It may be that so far, none of the Mensa bashers here have had any contact
with Mensa.
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: one simple question
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:20:49 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes about "Re: one simple question" to All  [06 Apr 92
21:51]

> MG> In short, the rational strategy seems to be either (1) ignore 
> MG> the lie, or, at worst, (2) respond precisely once.
> 
> But people who arrive in time for the second repition of the lie and who 
> missed the first round wouldn't know about the first refutation.

M>  Why worry so much about what other people think? It isn't your 
M> duty to assure everyone knows what statements made on a newsnet 
M> are true and which are false.

Because if the lies are about me (either directly or indirectly by lying about
an organization with which I am identified), it is my reputation and character
that are being maligned.  Sure, I can be a hermit and not concern myself with
what other people think of me, but I'd rather interact with people instead.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/ What we say and what we do
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:09:09 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) writes:

> Do not respond to his postings!  If you feel that you must comment on his
> remarks, save them up for one massive posting.  We must cut down on the
> traffic he is generating!  The amount of traffic is only booting his ego,
> and allow him to say "look I have all these smart people running around in
> cicrles".

This from a man who has had no less than 31 posts to my articles over the
past couple of days...

Practice what you preach!

---------
Scott Tai
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Who's in charge here?
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:51:05 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <702792058.F00008@blkcat.UUCP>, Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
> 
>  gms> What is it that you wish to know that the most intelligent person
>  gms> on this newsgroup may bestow His knowledge upon thee?
> 
>  MS> How do you know that you're the most intelligent
>  MS> person on this newsgroup?
> 
>  gms> Well, if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you.
> 
>  I see, you're the most intelligent person because you're the only
>  person who has figured out how you know you're the most intelligent
>  person.  But, wait a second . . . .


No!  That's not all!  It came to me in a vision!  THEN I figured it
out!  It has to with charts and graphs and technical stuff like that.
It has to do with faith, too!  See?  Of course you do!

All will be revealed in my new book, "How to Live Your Life By
Principles of Apparent Plausibility, or: Logic, Who Needs it When
You Really Believe in Yourself."

Available at Kroch and Brentano's in June '94.

Now that I've given it away, I feel, well... so dirty.


GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Subject: /T/ Harsh Language in Recent Post
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 18:04:29 GMT

mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:
>dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes:
>> When they take "In God We Trust" off of money, "under God" out of the
>> pledge of allegiance, [...]

> I'd appreciate if I didn't have to put up with your language on this
> international newsgroup.  No, I'm not going to make a kill file to
> censor this language, so don't suggest it. 

Score two for Mr. McBean!

---------
Scott Tai
From: phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Issac Asimov
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:11:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.12Apr92171129
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

noonan@sonata.enet.dec.com (Costumes & Makeup & Kliegs, oh my!) writes:
>
>In article <14167@claris.com>, Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes...
>> 
>>Other notable Mensans include the Late Buckminster Fuller (honorary
>>International President), Sir Clive Sinclair (Sinclair Computers), Don
>>Pedersen (former president of Ford Motor Company), F. Lee Bailey, Theodore
>>Bikel, Adrian Kronaur (SP?) (_Good Morning, Vietnam!_), and Jean Auel.
>
>
>
>         And me.  One must never forget *me*!

Uh! Duh! Who is you?

Oh! Yeah! The fifth letter of the alphabet!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
| Email: phil%miracle@merk.com  |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|  -or-  phil.hill@channel1.com |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| FAX:   (508)875-3297          |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com
Subject: Re: A REAL CHALLENGE: Fermat's last theorem..
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 15 APR 92 21:54:19    

In article <EACHUS.92Apr15120505@Dr_No.mitre.org>, eachus@Dr_No.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus) writes...
>   Anyway, don't bother with the proof for cubes, that has been known
>for several hundred years.  Last I heard the theorem had been proved
>for all n less than 150,000 or so.

Anyone have a pointer to the proof for n=3?
(or enter it here if it's short)

-Mike
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,alt.atheism
From: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
Subject: Re: Brainwashing (was Re: IQ and religious belief)
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 03:33:04 GMT

Allison:
>No one's responded to this yet: you're all too busy flaming each other.If
>>you're serious about this discussion, PLEASE try to answer the questions
>raised in it!
>>Allison

Indeed I have been flaming, but the real reason I have not responded
to your article is that I have not seen it yet. I have seen John's
reply but not your original - strange.

At this stage there is very little I can say other than that I agree
with everything John as said to date. So far he is doing a great job
of representing my views :-)

graham
--
Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
graham@maths.su.oz.au
From: grohol@novavax.UUCP (John Grohol)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re^2: mrmrks and beating a dead horse ...
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:50:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: novavax.3598
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, FL

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:

>Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner) writes:

>The question, as I took it, is that MENSA critics were responsible for
>proving that aptitude tests COULDN'T be used as the equivalent of IQ
>tests.  However, the burden of proof is on MENSA.

>> [...] it has been shown that aptitude tests correlate very well with
>> IQ tests, and therefore are perfectly suitable for use as evidence of Mensa
>> eligibility.

>This has not been satisfactorily proven.  ETS is on the record as saying that
>their tests should NOT be used as IQ tests.  Yet MENSA persists in doing so.

ETS is nobody's God. Try looking at the research in the field. As
I've said in the past, and will say so in the future, this is not
even a matter of contention to those who are in the field of
psychometric testing. The only person who seems to dispute these
high correlations are you and ETS. Check out:

Thorndike, R.L., Hagen, E.P., & Sattler, J.M. (1986). Technical manual,
	Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale, Fourth Edition.
	Chicago: Riverside Publishing.

Edinger, Shipley, Watkins, & Hammett, 1985.
Fowles & Tunick, 1986.
Gregg & Hoy, 1985.
Heinemann, Harper, Friedman, & Whitney, 1985.
Hiltonsmith, Hayman & Kleinman, 1984.
Klett, Watson, & Hoffman, 1986.
Kling & Kupersmith, 1984.
Maxwell & Wise, 1984.
Retzlaff, Slicner, & Gibertini, 1986.
Zachary, Crumpton, & Spiegel, 1985.
Ryan & Rosenberg, 1983.
Matarazzo & Herman, 1984.

These are just some of the reference you might want to check out to
verify these high correlations. Correlations DOES NOT mean "equal to,"
but for Chrissakes, this is only a means of having a cutoff to enter
an organization, not a way of testing to see who's gonna live and
who's gonna die. Stop blowing it out of proportion...

And I don't want to hear another damn word out of you until
you've looked up a few of these references and READ them and
admit that the research is out there that shows that IQ is
highly correlated with achievment and other tests. Thanks.

-John

-- 
 "And everybody used to hang around him.  ::  John M. Grohol, M.S.
  And I know why. They said:              ::  Cntr for Psychological Studies
  There but for the grace of the angels   ::  Nova Univ, Ft. Lauderdale, FL  
  go I." -- Laurie Anderson               ::  grohol@novavax.nova.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: kenn@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Kenn Frankel)
Subject: Re: signing off rec.org.mensa for the time being
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 22:20:04 GMT

chesl@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gail Chesler) writes:

>down any.  At this time, with all these flames, this group ...
> ... mostly a waste of
> the time it takes to read.

I was hoping that this newsgroup was a chance for mensans to interact
electronically.  I would like to see this newsgroup moderated to quiet up
the whiners.  How can we go about starting moderation?

Kenn Frankel
New Mensan 
kenn@cs.ucla.edu
From: grohol@novavax.UUCP (John Grohol)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/T/T/ Tai and Lack of Fraud
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:34:44 GMT
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, FL

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:

>There is no test that will account for the bias, in the United States at
>least, of the differences in education and financial status, in general,
>for minorities, which are linked to test scores. 

".. in general.." Where do you GET this stuff from?? I'd love to know
because you are causing laughter all around in this Center. You're
taking a lot of huge cause and effect leaps there in your logic
when you should know better. Correlations do not equal cause.
You cite me the studies that say that low SES causes lower
IQ scores, in the general population, and then we'll talk.

Until then, your argument has nil value.

-John

-- 
 "And everybody used to hang around him.  ::  John M. Grohol, M.S.
  And I know why. They said:              ::  Cntr for Psychological Studies
  There but for the grace of the angels   ::  Nova Univ, Ft. Lauderdale, FL  
  go I." -- Laurie Anderson               ::  grohol@novavax.nova.edu
From: mcbeanb@brandonu.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: intelligence bashing
Date: 2 Apr 92 16:15:04 GMT
 <1992Mar31.225442.23521@uunet.uu.net> <1992Apr1.134642.6388@gn.ecn.purdue.edu>
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

In article <1992Apr1.134642.6388@gn.ecn.purdue.edu>, mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas) writes:
>>mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas) writes:
>>> I was a target for several years just because I was "smart",
>>> and the only way I got people to stop threatening me was to
>>> finally accept a challenge and deck the guy.
>>
>>mcbeanb@brandonu.ca (Brian McBean) writes:
>> I don't think anyone is qualified to refute this.  Allow me to say that
>> perhaps there were other ways which did not occur to you which would
>> also work.
> 
> Yeah...I could have just repeatedly gotten the crap beaten out of me.  

Well, isn't this an alternative that *had* occurred to you?

> The
> psychology o fthe "bully" is rather interesting.  You can't reason with them,
> and you can't talk your way out of the situations-- I should know, because I
> tried this for 4 years (middle school and high school).  All these people care
> about is their ability to terrorize people, mostly the smart and defenseless
> "wimps", and they have a lot of fun doing it.  When I finally hit somebody,
> and started a rather good fight, my tormentors left me alone for the rest of
> my high school career.  It seemes I was no longer considered an "easy target".

Then again, I never said that I was immune to bullies, I just said they didn't
pick on me for the single reason that I am intelligent.  They picked on
everybody equally ;)...  I don't know what it was I did (maybe I'll remember
one day), but they rarely bothere me for more than a week or two at once...
Maybe they were too stupid to remember they didn't like me. 
 
> John Mechalas 

Brian McBean  -  McBeanB@BrandonU.Ca
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: SAT scores and Mensa
Date: 14 Apr 92 06:49:08 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Steve Peltz writes about "SAT scores and Mensa" to All  [13 Apr 92 21:33]

SP> An earlier comment implied that Mensa will accept the result 
SP> of the SAT for qualifying for membership. Is that correct? How 
SP> recent does it need to be? And what are the cutoff limits?

Yes, it is correct.  If the SAT was administered earlier than 9/77, the cutoff
is 1300; if it had been administered in or after 9/77, the cutoff is 1250.

SP> I've heard good and bad about Mensa, and would be interested 
SP> in hearing anecdotal evidence both ways.

I joined Mensa in 1969, and have remained a member ever since; it is the only
organization that I retained membership in for more than ten years and one of
three that I retained membership for more than three years.

Wherever I go, if I have time, I look up the local Mensa organization, and have
always been welcomed as if I were a long-lost family member; in fact, that is
a very good analogy because many Mensans consider Mensa to be an extended family.
 In the past three years, I took three people to Mensa activites with the intent
of trying to recruit them.  One of them joined as soon as she could (She's the
one who asked on a BBS "I found out that I'm eligible; why should I join?" 
So, I wrote, "Why not come to an event and find out for yourself?")  The second
is waiting to take the test, and the third decided that she didn't want to risk
the embarassment of not passing the test, so she didn't try to join.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/ MENSA Groups Nonexistent in this Area
Date: 6 Apr 92 23:49:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.06Apr92184921
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) writes:
>
>> Perhaps the same reasons that you continue to post messages to a newsgroup
>> of an organization you aer morally opposed to.  If you have problems, join
>> the group run for office and get the group to change from within.  You will
>> never succeed from the outside.  Short of that, ignore the group.
>
>Okay, I tried just that.  The Raleigh phone book contained no listing of any
>MENSA group.  Hard to believe, considering it is home to the largest
>university in North Carolina and South Carolina!  Let me know how where the
>closest MENSA group is.  (Chapel Hill or Durham, perhaps?)

CHARLOTTE/BLUE RIDGE

LocSec:  John Leslie Sigman, 1018 11th St. NE #1, Hickory, NC 28601, (704) 328-6507

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
| Email: phil%miracle@merk.com  |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|  -or-  phil.hill@channel1.com |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| FAX:   (508)875-3297          |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jim@uvmark.uucp (Jim Todhunter)
Subject: Re: A REAL CHALLENGE: Fermat's last theorem..
Summary: Reference to proof of Fermat's last theorem for n = 3
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 11:50:57 GMT
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Apr16.013320.7520@e2big.mko.dec.com> moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com writes:
>In article <EACHUS.92Apr15120505@Dr_No.mitre.org>, eachus@Dr_No.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus) writes...
>>   Anyway, don't bother with the proof for cubes, that has been known
>>for several hundred years.  Last I heard the theorem had been proved
>>for all n less than 150,000 or so.
>
>Anyone have a pointer to the proof for n=3?
>(or enter it here if it's short)
>
>-Mike

A proof of Fermat's last theorem for the case n = 3 can be found in:

  An Introduction To The Theory Of Numbers, 4th Edition
  Ivan Niven & H. S. Zuckerman
  1980
  John Wiley & Sons
  ISBN 0-471-02851-7

The proof is given in section 9.10, pages 261-265.

Enjoy!

-- 
 James W. Todhunter, Director, Research & Development
 Vmark Software, Inc., 30 Speen Street, Framingham, MA  01701, USA
 Internet: jim%uvmark@merk.com, UUCP: uunet!merk!uvmark!jim or jim@uvmark.uucp
 Phone: (508) 879-3311, Fax: (508) 879-3332, Telex: 5101011619 VMARKUNIVERS
From: jc@sppip7.lkg.dec.com (John Chambers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Fermat's flunkeys (was Re: A Real Challenge)
Date: 16 Apr 92 16:05:28 GMT
Reply-To: jc@sppip7.lkg.dec.com (John Chambers)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <1992Apr15.224853.5829@fx.com>, raphael@fx.com (Glen Raphael) writes:
> The person who benefits most from you getting educated is you.   And
> the person who benefits most from you getting a job is you.
>
> Everyone  else's  benefit  from  your  schooling  and  your  work is
> miniscule by comparison. As a result, the most logical person to pay
> for  your  schooling  is you, modulo businesses, banks and charities
> handling a lot of special cases.

This free-market approach to education is very shortsighted.  Consider
a  bright  but very poor kid in the local ghetto of your choice.  That
kid has no chance whatsoever of paying for his/her own education.  You
are  therefore  condemning  him/her  to a life of whatever can be done
without an education.  Such people typically don't just  give  up  and
commit  suicide.  A lot of them are going to "make it" in whatever way
that society will allow.  Since an education is the  entry  ticket  to
most  legit  jobs that pay well, this means either legit jobs that pay
poorly, or at illegit jobs that pay well.

Is this really what you have in mind?  Do you really want to live in a
society that condemns a lot of its brightest people to whatever can be
done without an education?

Early this century, America went to great lengths  to  deny  education
and  opportunity  to  the  large  influx  of people from Mediterranean
countries, and we paid a high price for it in the form  of  the  Mafia
and crime rates among the highest in the world.  Then and now, we have
denied education and opportunities to urban black kids; we are  paying
a  high  price  for  it when they make it in the only way available to
them: crime and drugs.  The recent influx of immigrants from Southeast
Asia  has  produced  the same sort of denials in their inevitably poor
communities, and we are seeing a greater involvement  of  these  young
people in organized crime.

When will we ever learn?
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Just one guy's opinions
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:50:42 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <2507@keele.keele.ac.uk> csz55@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Christopher Wrigley) writes:

}> ... At least one study has shown that F
}> students are better helped by C students than A students.  The F students
}> need to be taught basic skills -- things the A students do instinctively,
}> but the C students know they have to work at.  ...

}Interesting, my first time hearing of such a study. Which one is it btw?

I was afraid you'd ask.  It's been at least 14 years since I read that
report and I don't even remember the name of the publication.  Nor do I
have convenient access to a research library these days (my life is
suddenly and, I hope, temporarily _very_ busy).  I could probably track it
down eventually, but this discussion will have been long forgotten by
then.  Sorry about that.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@soldev.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405 {rutgers|pyramid|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe
From: mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: intelligence bashing
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:39:52 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Apr2.101505.1500@brandonu.ca> mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:
>Then again, I never said that I was immune to bullies, I just said they didn't
>pick on me for the single reason that I am intelligent.  They picked on
>everybody equally ;)...  I don't know what it was I did (maybe I'll remember
>one day), but they rarely bothere me for more than a week or two at once...
>Maybe they were too stupid to remember they didn't like me. 
> 

I wish I knew your secret!  Or at least, I wish I had known it when I was in
high school!  Would have saved me a lot of trouble.  ;)

-- 
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