From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:44:54 GMT

In article <thos.711961428@suite.sw.oz.au> thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) writes:

: >>
: 
: >	If he can get out of Australia, then you should question how
: >	can Australian govt let it happened, not Malaysian govt. 
: 
: Admittedly some questions should be asked of the Immigration people,
: but there is no country on the globe whose borders are proof against 
: people who want to get in or out.

If that were the case, the Australian government must prosecute the father.
Have you ever tried to cross borders illegally? There is always a finite
chance that you get caught either now or later.
	Just because borders are not foolproff, then why bother with immigration
laws and customs. Surely your judgement is faulty. You are applying the 
perfect case to be valid to through another view. Why can't I apply the same
back at you. Can you prove conclusively that the father had kidnapped the
children? If not then it should be otherwise. Use your common sense. Your
biased views towards ISLAM has cluttered your brain.

: 
: The base point I'm trying to make here is that how the children are
: being raised is no affair of anyone outside Australia except perhaps
Even if they are Malaysian citizens. Come one what sort of common sense are
you applying?
: the father. And all he can legally do is complain to the Australian
It is already confirmed that the children are Malaysian citizens under the 
protection of the Malaysian Sovereignty. They should never be Australian
 citizens even under the custody of an Australian mother. Father overrules
mother in citizenship cases, I think even in Australia. The fact that this
is injustice, has nothing to do with the law.

: authorities, except he decided to take matters into his own hands.

: I'm not paying it particular attention because the father is a Prince,
: nor because the children are being taken to an Islamic state. My 
: interest stems from the fact that Malaysia is always complaining to
: our government about how our TV shows show disrespect for them and 
: their customs; and yet when Malaysian citizens break the laws of our
: country, and kidnap citizens, their government shows no respect for

Has he really broken the law? The Australian citizens in Malaysia were put on
trial first before pronounced guilty. Here you are, pronouncing someone guilty
even befor the evidence has been brought in.
	The father has visitation rights. The duration is arguable. Custody
to mother is only automatic if the children are young and can be contested time
and again, especially when the children are Malaysian citizens. 
	The father may now proceed with court case to contest the custodian
right if he wants to. He may not want to. He just want to bring the children
to Malaysia to observe our ISLAMIC custom in the true sense instead of being
brain-washed by Australian society.

: our laws and customs. It does sound like double standards to me.

Taste your own medicine then.

: 
: However, the double-dealing aside, the kidnapping of a country's 
: citizens is an affront to all citizens of that country.

To prove a kidnapping case, you must prove the the children were forcefully
taken by the father. Their mother's statements are meaningless. It is most
likely that that the children had gone willing. Whether they are cheated is not
up to you to decide. You are proven to be biased.
	View yourself in their positions. Would you listen to your mother to
hate your own father? Not for us. Maybe you are full of hate even to your own
father.
	If the mother wants to get their children, she can contest in Malaysian
court. Do not apply double standards here because you demand that the father
contest the case in Australia.
	To say that the father agreed last time is immaterial because of 
changes in current circumstances. E.g. he might have agreed at that time because
she was a Muslim. The moment she renouces ISLAM, he has the right to change his
mind, because the agreement was based on certain pre-conditions, either stated
in writing or not.
	I am not a lawyer but I just apply the law of common sense in terms of
justice. The argument that Australian Sovereignty overides Malaysian sovereignty
is preposterous.


Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean