HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Date: 30 Dec 1992 13:20 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1hse5hINN940@uwm.edu>, pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii) writes...
>In article <C01Koo.B93.1@cs.cmu.edu> drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
>>>In the early days of Xtianity the cross was not worshipped.  In fact
>>>it was a point of shame that their Christ was crucified.  It was a
>>>social stygma to be associated with someone who was crucified.  And
>>>it was a way of vilifying (sp) the person who was sentenced to death.
>>
> 
>I thought that the cross, as used by the Xians was a symbol of the sacrafice
>that Jesus supposedly made of himself to the world.
> 
>". . . gave His only begotten Son etc, etc, etc, . . . "
> 
>Peter Thomas

Funny thing just happened to me.  Despite knowing this quote in my sleep for
the better part of my 28 years in this life...at this moment I find that I
can't pull it up....darn!  What good is all that Xtian upbringing if it's 
going to fail you in your moment of need....:)

Anyway Peter, it is a fallacy to use the bible as your only source.  It has
been written and rewritten and added to and taken away from and translated 
into so many different languages from so many different languages and been 
reworked like so much play-dough....well you get the picture.

Go back and study the time period from about, oh, 50 BC to about 300 AD.
After you do that then go and read the bible, placing the words in context
to the time period.  A whole new picture will arise in your mind.

Tammy
From: popec@freeside.com (PopeC)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 14:14:35 CST
Organization: Rivendell BBS / Hou, TX. / +1 713 941 2236

Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:

> In article <1992Dec31.015158.7606@serval.net.wsu.edu> 
>  bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (William E. Johns;S23015) writes:
> >In article <29DEC199212214576@jane.uh.edu> 
>  lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
> >>
> >>The early symbol of Xtianity was the fish, like is becomming popular 
> >>today.
> >
> >Why was the fish a symbol?  Anyone have a good idea?  Even a bad one might
> >be amusing.  :-)
> 
> It comes from a Greek acrostic phrase, which gives the word for "fish":
> 
>  Iesous = Jesus
>  Christos = Christ
>  Theou = of God
>  Huios = Son
>  Soter = Savior
> 
>  Ichthus = fish
> 
> It is one of the symbols found in the catacombs of Rome. It is
> thought to have been used as a covert recognition sign for early
> christians.
> 
> -- 
>  Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
>  Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
>                       |  Feminist   |.......|.........................


Along with that, the four gospels are filled with fish imagery.
The fishermen recruited as apostles, the miracles of the fish and loaves,
the poll tax paid with a coin found in a fish, and lots of others fish 
stories.

**********************************************************************
* Pope Charles - Subgenius pope Of Houston & The Golden Triangle Area*
*       Laughing at everything in the Universe, including the        *
*       concept of laughing at everything in the Universe.           *
*               rivdell.sccsi.com    Houston, Texas                  *
**********************************************************************
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Date: 24 Dec 92 06:12:30 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu

In article <1992Dec22.182919.22457@radian.uucp> markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
>
>As an example, I worked as a lab tech in the late-60's/early 70's, at a
>research lab. We did work with fly ash from the city incinerator. According
>to the ASTM tests, our cement made with it was stronger than Portland
>cement. Aggregate made with it met or exceeded all standards for general
>use, for things like roads, buildings, etc. My boss tried to interest the
>US gov't in putting up a building at a World's Fair, built completely from
>recycled materials like this. Dear old Tricky Dick & the Republicans (catchy
>name for a group, no?) didn't like the idea. The big trick is overcoming the
>"But we've never *done* it that way!!!" response.
>
>	mark, the recycled hippy

Also you are dealing with vested interests and they don't like change
that threatens the pocketbook.  I don't know that this is the case here
but it would not surprise me.

Can someone kindly tell me why cats insist on standing on the keyboard
and presenting their fanny while you are trying to type.  This cat has
a very limited vocabulary consisting of "hold me", "feed me" "let me out",
and "see my butt".  Come to think of it I have known a number of people
with the same general view of life.
BB
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
From: gaiaf@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Date: 24 Dec 92 17:54 EST
Subject: Re: Goddess in the Bible
Nf-ID: #R:peg:483700072:peg:483700073:000:93
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!gaiaf    Dec 24 17:54:00 1992


Sorry, it doesn't seem to work.

You will have to try the hard copy at the previous address.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Here I am .... *yea* !!!!!
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:43:33 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <23DEC199223235301@elroy.uh.edu> lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>Well guys, here I am, at home, with my 'puter and modem, talking on alt.pagan.
>8)  8)  8)  8)
>I guess y'all will be hearing my big mouth more often from now on.
>
>(Is that a groan I hear our there?)
>
>BB with all my love,
>Tammy the contented
>
No groans. Though you'd better be careful, I'm old enough to remember the
Tammy movies....

	mark
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: Sat,  2 Jan 1993 15:34:42 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dial.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b31

SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes:

> The one and only *text* handed down in my family is one sentence long, 
> as follows: "Mathiesens [or whatever the current last name is] are 
> different!" [...] This is the only thing I 
> really made a great effort to pass on to my own children, and it took 
> with both of them.  Everything else is technique or technology, and 
> anything that works can never be lost forever.

This is true; and depite my occasional frustration, I must say that this idea 
is very much alive in my family as well.  As one of my great-aunts often (and 
occasionally ruefully :)) puts it, "Ain't none of us *dull*."  Grin.  And 
again, despite the scarcity of concrete information passed from generation to 
generation, the tools are very carefully and explicitly passed along, 
including such things as:

 - A ravenous curiousity, and a feeling that not knowing something is
   just an incentive to find out, whether by research or experimentation.
   This is what lead to my great-grandfather being one of the first people
   in his entire county to install electricity, or have a car (which he
   evidently bought as a kit and assembled himself), obtain patents on
   wind generators, and so on.

 - A strong sense of individuality and family cohesiveness, coupled with
   the knowledge that living by other people's rules is a choice, not a
   requirement.  One aspect of this is keeping knowledge of the family
   around, a tradition which my mother and her brothers are continuing.
   We have most of the family lines traced back to their arrival on this
   continent, although from there it gets rather fuzzy.  Try to find a
   particular line of tall, blue-eyed, blonde-haired Scandinavians who
   came to this country in about 1670 from Sweden and took the name
   "Smith", for example :).

 - Deep skepticism of anyone who claims to have all the answers, no matter
   what the context.

 - A strong appreciation for the world around us, nature, and other people.

And so on.  Eccentricity is encouraged.  Grin.  No matter how odd I may be, 
the worst I really have to worry about in the long run is being dubbed a 
"crazy cousin" by my relatives...

> Your words about your own family are eloquent beyond any need for me to 
> add comments of my own.  One thing only: if your family had Masonic 
> connections and was in the Old South during 1850-1900, almost certainly 
> any fondness for esoteric interests would have led them to explore 
> General Albert Pike's version of Scottish Rite Masonry (Southern 
> Jurisdiction). 

Actually, I don't know of any Masonic connections in that branch of the
family--the only ones I know about are in Pennsylvania and New England, and
are on my father's side of the family.




Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation
From: popec@freeside.com (PopeC)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 06:44:40 CST
Organization: Rivendell BBS / Hou, TX. / +1 713 941 2236

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

> In article <13XNwB4w165w@freeside.com> popec@freeside.com (PopeC) writes:
> >Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
> >
> >> In article <1992Dec31.015158.7606@serval.net.wsu.edu> 
> >>  bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (William E. Johns;S23015) writes:
> >> >In article <29DEC199212214576@jane.uh.edu> 
> >>  lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
> >> >>
> >> >>The early symbol of Xtianity was the fish, like is becomming popular 
> >> >>today.
> >> >
> >> >Why was the fish a symbol?  Anyone have a good idea?  Even a bad one migh
> >> >be amusing.  :-)
> >> 
> >> It comes from a Greek acrostic phrase, which gives the word for "fish":
> >> 
> >>  Iesous = Jesus
> >>  Christos = Christ
> >>  Theou = of God
> >>  Huios = Son
> >>  Soter = Savior
> >> 
> >>  Ichthus = fish
> >> 
> >> It is one of the symbols found in the catacombs of Rome. It is
> >> thought to have been used as a covert recognition sign for early
> >> christians.
> >
> >Along with that, the four gospels are filled with fish imagery.
> >The fishermen recruited as apostles, the miracles of the fish and loaves,
> >the poll tax paid with a coin found in a fish, and lots of others fish 
> >stories.
> 
> Given the late dates of most biblical writings, this doesn't answer the
> question.  Why do fish abound in the literature of xtianity?
> 
> Cute pun, BTW.
> 
> Blessings,
> Janis 
> 


Hard to tel at this late point. I suspect that the fish in the gospels 
and the nangram, and the imagery developed over a period of time because 
people like symbolism, and this was obvious.  It would have been hard not 
to pick up on this and build on it all.

  Plus I would suspect that fish would have been more important to many 
of the poor followers of Xianity in those early days.  I suspect that for 
many of them meat was not an easy thing to obtain, so fish would have 
been much more important to them than to us, being easier for many to 
get.  

**********************************************************************
* Pope Charles - Subgenius pope Of Houston & The Golden Triangle Area*
*       Laughing at everything in the Universe, including the        *
*       concept of laughing at everything in the Universe.           *
*               rivdell.sccsi.com    Houston, Texas                  *
**********************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Types of Magic
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:47:50 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Keywords: Vitalist, Mentalist, Mix of ?ists, my Definition of Magic(k)

hz225wu@unidui.UUCP (Micaela "Stayka" Pantke) writes:

>D> I'm not sure I understand the difference between life-force and mental
>D> energy.  Could you give a few examples?
>
>In my humble opinion life-force would be energy which is drawn to you
>from other living things, be they animals, plants or men, be it given
>willingly or unwillingly.  (Which would give my idea of 'black magick':
>anything taken from or forced on unwilling participants, be they plants,
>animals, men or whatever).  Mental energy would be energy contained
>within yourself, or raised energy from one of the formerly named sources
>which you incorporated for your own use and by that transformed to
>mental energy.

But would not life-force to you be someone else's mental energy?

And you don't necessarily indicate what you think of 'black magick;'
do you think it's a "bad" thing, or just a different way to operate
that is sometimes required?

So let me see if I understand what you're saying: Your mental energy
is your own personal life-force.  Someone else's mental energy can
be accessed by you as life-force (kinda like using a pointer?), and
someone else can access your own mental energy as life-force.  Is
that about it, or am I missing something?

>(No sources existing, those are just my own thoughts...)

Same.

>D> However, I think that in discussions like this, there cannot be one
>D> "true and right way" to differentiate types of magic.  
>
>How true! Please note that I also only state MY OPINION, derived from
>MY OWN EXPERIENCES.

I hope to learn from what you have expereienced, as I hope that you can
learn from me.

>D> What do you mean by magic?
>
>I want to answer that question my way -- IN MY OPINION magic(k) is
>something that science can't explain rationally AT THE MOMENT, and
>something that moves something in the senses of the magic(k) worker and
>co-workers, or in the senses of others sensitive to those phenomenons. 

OK, I can partially agree.

>I deliberately used lots of expressions that could say everything or 
>nothing, because I would not want to limit an open word like magic(k)
>by the confinements of our language(s).

I think our langauge is an important tool for use in magic.

Thank you for your input.  I look forward to continuing this discussion
with you.

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: michael@marcel.bu.edu (Michael Chaplin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: pagan origin of Christmas customs?
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:20:53 GMT
Organization: Boston University
In-reply-to: thorfinn@wixer.cactus.org's message of 16 Dec 92 09:06:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.090619.23394@wixer.cactus.org>
thorfinn@wixer.cactus.org (Thorfinn Einarsson) writes:

[interesting stuff deleted]

   =Yule is a period of 12 nights ending with New Year's Eve. This is where
   =the song, "The 12 Days of Christmas", comes from. The winter solstice
   =is called "Mother Night", the longest of nights. On New Year's Eve,
   =people would swear oathes on a sacred boarshead, a ring, or a family sword.
   =Today we call these New Year's Resolutions. The Yule-Tide is Germanic
   =in origin.

Actually the song "The 12 days of Christmas" has to do
with the span of days from Chistmas to the Epiphany, i.e., from
the birth to the arrival of the Magi. The *span* of twelve days,
though, could certainly have been adopted from the ancient Yule
custom.

In many countries, gifts are not exchanged on Xmas, but on the
Epiphany, delivered by such personages as La Befana, as opposed to
Santa Claus. Of course, the pagan bases for these have been well
discused before this.

Most enjoyable, though, was the idea of gifts being transported by the
Crone, who gives you what you deserve, *not* what you want. Was that
Corun or Ciaran who related that to us?

[other interesting stuff deleted]

Happy Holidays-
Chaplin.
--
=========================================================================
Michael A. Chaplin           If you want *their* opinions, ask *them*.
michael@albert.bu.edu ....The Einstein Papers Project, Boston, Mass., USA
chaplin@husc.harvard.edu ....Harvard University, Cambridge, Mass., USA
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: a little mindless bitching
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:47:07 GMT

Or a little mindless steam-venting, whichever you prefer.

While I was home, I got a few surprises -- good and bad, and had a few
unpleasant feelings justified.

1) a close friend of mine agreed when I mentioned that the pentacle was
a badly misunderstood symbol.

2) the next night, upon learning over the phone that the xmas
decorations at her parents' house were ripped off, the words, "You know
what it is?  It's those goddamned niggers" actually escaped her lips,
presented as if the comment was a logically reasoned social thesis.
WHAT the hell can you say in reply to something like that?  I said,
"Maria, are you out of your mind?" and left it at that, but there is NO
refuting something like that, let's face it.  

3) my mom convinced me that she is far more radical than I give her
credit for.  At work, one of the young loan officers said something
about the woman that Mike Tyson raped: "Well, she went up to his
apartment?  What did she go up there for?"  Stupidly, he said this
within earshot of my mom, who turned around and said, "She went up there
for *S*E*X*; women are sexual creatures as well as men.  What she didn't
go up there for was to get the shit beaten out of her!"  My mom is 58,
so she can get away with saying a bit more; the young guys there defer
to her in conversations.  

4) my brother convinced me that he is more racist than he will ever
admit.  He hates Kwanzaa(sp?) for no reason.  I asked him, "Why?  Because
black people celebrate it?"  He had no response, but just shook his
head.

5) I must have heard "nigger" and "faggot" more times out there in two
weeks than I have the whole year previous out here.  Not that the west
coast is some paragon of racial tolerance; it sure as hell ain't that.
But, Jesus, that is crazy!

I will NEVER LIVE BACK THERE.  FUCKING NEVER.  I've only just begun
telling myself that if people get on my nerves, I am under no obligation
to hang around them.  My ex-boyfriend was one of those; I hung around
him because I felt like I should, and I had no right to disapprove of
him.  

I do now.  I can't stand most people around where I used to live back
east, and I will never again take up residence there.  I have no idea
what is going to happen when I get married, and that friend expects to
be the maid of honor at my wedding and she doesn't get chosen.  Not only
do I not know if I'm going to HAVE a maid of honor, if I pick one, it's
going to be Sally, my massively flaming-liberal amiga-hermana, as we
call each other.  

Ah, well.  I don't want to make it seem like I hated my whole time
there.  It's always nice to see family, especially my uncle and cousins,
and I guess friends are okay, even though were I to meet them today, I
wouldn't be friends with them.  Would that my family could come out
HERE!

Blessings,
Janis
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Power-over/Power-from-within
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 30 Dec 92 04:05:47 GMT

This seems to have died down by this time, but was going strong while I
was home.  And, while I was in Philadelphia, I thought of something that
I couldn't post, so you get it now, weeks old but with most of the mold
scraped off.

Once again, in this classification craze of ours we have neglected to
realized that ALL of us, myself included, have constructed the dread
binary set of boxes and have been busily hacking bits off the universe
and sorting them, with no regard whatsoever for the fact that the
universe does not fit neatly into two categories.

"This is power-over!"  "No, it's not!  It's power-from-within!"  Why the
hell are we so anxious to cleave everything into a digital number of
pieces and automatically classify them as mutually exclusive of one
another?  While power-over and power-from-within may certainly be useful
concepts, they do not serve to define every single instance of use of
power.  Why do we assume that these two classifications are exhaustive?
Are we lazy?  Or do we just not realize what we are doing? 

Take three distinct and each unique instances of exercising of power.
In the first, a man rapes a woman.  Im the second, a student group
holds a rally to protest fee increases.  In the third, a literature
department is pressured into including books by minority authors.  Do
you realize that by using a bipolar classification WITHOUT REALIZING
THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE DOING you are FORCED to identify two of these are
identically described, when they each are multifaceted and whole in
their own right? 

Get off the bipoar bandwagon, people.  Even I -- the one who hates
bipolar thinking so much -- neglected to realize what was going on.
Let's say we stop taking an axe to the universe in a effort to fit the
pieces into one of two mutually exclusive boxes.  We do it with human
talents -- this one is "male," this one is "female."  This one is
"liberal," this one "conservative."  This is "hawk," this is "dove."
This is "feminist," this is "traditional."  This is "Pagan," this is
"Christian."  Let's knock it off.

Yes, I'm back and snottier than ever!

Blessings, and it's good to be back!
Janis
From: mcelroy@bu.edu (Carl Mackin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Nomenclature./Men are Not witches!
Date: 22 Dec 92 14:58:04 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Dawn Hardin (dhardin@bbn.com) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec18.212725.23970@athena.cs.uga.edu>, tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
: > 
: > Okay, let's clear the air on this one.  Since when were men called witches? 
: 
: Since they stopped watching "Bewitched."
: 
: > The correct terminology for a man who endeavors to engage in magical
: > practices is "Warlock".  The more gender nuetral term would be
: > "Necromancer".  If I practiced magic, I surely wouldn't want to be called a
: > witch. 
: 
: If Bran wants to be called a witch, that's his business.  I don't think
: you'll find very many sources in modern paganism outside of comic books
: using the word "warlock."  But hey, if that's what you want to be called, 
: go for broke.
: 
: Dawn
: 
: Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved.
: "Folk Song" by Bongwater


Thank you Dawn.  I agree with you 100%.  One should be called what one wants.
Be it Wiccian, Witch, Warlock, Sorcerer, Scorceress, Necromancer...

May the Lord and Lady Bless you and keep you safe in this most joyous time.

--Mac

mcelroy@acs.bu.edu
From: cn573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ray Henry)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: I loved this line
Date: 25 Dec 1992 05:22:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Even as a part-Cherokee, I feel no insult from your post. In fact,
I found the line amusing as well.  :)
Antryg
-- 
Ray Henry   cn573@cleveland.freenet.edu

Sometimes with Bill Shankster in piggyback.  :)
From: idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: pagan origin of Christmas customs?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 23:04:16 MST
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #1, Edmonton, AB, Canada

michael@marcel.bu.edu writes:


- A
- Actually the song "The 12 days of Christmas" has to do
- with the span of days from Chistmas to the Epiphany, i.e., from
- the birth to the arrival of the Magi. The *span* of twelve days,
- though, could certainly have been adopted from the ancient Yule

I was under the impression that the reason that "Five Golden Rings" was always
sung so differently was because the fifth day of Yule was Christmas. The
Epiphany explanation was grafted on later.












' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
 
Bright Blessings to you and yours!  
 
Hawk
 
Circle of Ashtoreth, 
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan