From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Sexism: Defined
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 15:48:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <MUFFY.92Sep8211733@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>In article <mxrnslk.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep8.153043.22075@news.acns.nwu.edu> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>>All arguments you mentioned have been put forth by feminists, some of them
>>long ago. Are you claiming that they got their ideas from you? :^)
>
>Clearly not.  However, people *can* come up with ideas on their own.  In
>fact, I have come up with several ideas which, when I tell them to my
>more well-read feminist friends, I am told have already been expressed
>quite well by some feminist author.  Conversely, if I read something, I
>accept certain ideas or arguments and reject others.  The ones I accept
>I then work into my personal philosopy, at which point I feel that,
>while they are certainly still the other person's, they are also mine.

Hmmm, I'll accept your point while noting that you are responding to
a personal question asked of Albert. 
 
>>If the major effect of
>>the feminist movement is achieved by a few extremists, how then can it
>>be claimed that the feminist movement is not extremist?
>
>Well, if most of the people who are feminists are not extremists, then I
>think you can certainly claim that "the movement" (I would say that
>there is not just one, since I see feminism as a viewpoint and way of
>thinking, which has spawned several different movements) is also not
>extremist.  Similarly, just because, for example, some extreme
>Republicans start wars does not mean that starting wars is necessarily
>the point of the Republican party.  You seem to be looking at the
>"effects" of feminists in order to determine what the goals of "the
>movement" are.  There are two problems with this.

If the effects of feminism are different from the stated goals of
the "movement", then there is indeed a major malfunction. But it is
exactly as valid to look at the "effects" of feminism as it is to
look at the "effects" of sexism, there is no difference.

>First, you are focusing rather narrowly.  Feminism has had many other
>effects besides Dworkin's (so far, not very effective, fortunately)
>anti-pornography laws.  For example, education for women, the vote for
>women, the change in parenting/housekeeping roles so that both men and
>women have more choice in what role they play, the change in how the
>institution of marriage is viewed, etc.  Perhaps Gordon, who is much
>more of a feminist scholar than I am, can point out more of the effects
>of feminism.  (Note that I am not saying that any of this was solely the
>work of feminism, but it certainly had a hand in all of this.)

By dealing with what I see and experience, I am "focusing rather narrowly"?
Thanx for the news, now what do I do, therapy?
 
>Second, there are many things that feminists are working for which have
>not yet been fully achieved, such as the ERA (no discrimination on the
>basis of gender), abortion (both pro and con...*grin*), female-oriented
>pornography (yes, some of us are very pro-porn), encouraging women to
>study science (against societal beliefs that women just aren't good at
>science and math), accessible/affordable child care, etc.  Again, as I
>am not really involved politically, I have probably missed a lot of
>things.

If any of these things had been accomplished, directly or indirectly,
I would not feel as I do. What I see being pushed again and again
I do not support.
 
>Sure, the media *loves* people like Andrea Dworkin, so you hear a lot
>about the effects that she has had, but that doesn't mean that those are
>by any means the major effects or efforts of feminism.

She has had major effects, you cannot just claim media hype. And I have
been talking about the effects of feminism only, not such things as
stated goals. But I also do not see NOW or any feminst groups disowning
Dworkin or making statements that they do not support Dworkin and her
goals. Do you?
 
>Muffy

Rich

payner@netcom.com


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