From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 6 Sep 92 01:04:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Message-ID: <9209040226.AA24505@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
           -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene to Bruce Tiffany <=-
 BT> Not among *Rabbinic* Jews, whose religion is characterized by
 >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 BT> the rejection of Yeshua as Messiah.
 RAL> I keep hearing this accusation, but I never get any evidence.
 BT> You mean Rabbinic Jews do *not* reject Yeshua as Messiah??
 RAL> I've underlined the accusation to assist your comprehension.
                           -BC> response <BC-
      Actually, I think the idea is more that modern Rabbinic Judaism
      has built into itself, (all too often), an auto-rejection of
      Y'shua as Messiah.  One can be going along in Rabbinic Judiasm,
      and simply come to the conclusion that Y'shua is the Messiah, and
      woooosh - off you go; even though nothing else has changed at
      that point in ones belief system, - you are still thrown out of
      the Judaic community, given a mock funeral, and told that you
      now must call yourself a goyish monk?! :-(  Sorry..., this is an
      invalid position.  Believing that Y'shua is HaMashiach, does NOT
      invalidate ones heritage, culture, Zionistic identity, nor
      Biblical Judiac lifestyle/walk - (even if there have been a few
      who have determined to take such a course), such is NOT the
      Messianic/Natzratim creed - we remain Jews, we still like
      bagels, we still support Israel, and we still walk in concord
      with Torah!
 RAL> First of all, the tenets of Judaism don't vary like
 RAL> political platforms.
                           -BC> response <BC-
      Tell that to the frum in the Knesset :-)
 RAL> so should "Messianic Jews[sic]" publicly identify themselves with
 RAL> Christianity whose whose tenets also match theirs.
                           -BC> response <BC-
      We do.  "Christianity", (as it is today, and has been in various
      forms since the 4th century), is a gentile-expression, (all too
      often a hellonistic one), of the 1st century Judaic Covenant that
      allowed for the ingrafting of the wild-olive tree into the
      natural Olive tree.  Where it is in agreement with the 'Good-News
      (that was) once received', we are in agreement, where it varies,
      we are in discord.
 RAL> If not, I'd be interested in hearing how "Messianic Jewish [sic]"
 RAL> tenets differ from the major Christian denominations'.
                           -BC> response <BC-
      I though we covered that?  Just for starters:
           No statues; no easterous/ishatar worship day; no winter
           solstice (yule, etc...) celebration; not holding to the
           sinless nature of Mary/Miryam; not agreeing with 'Papal
           authority' for any man; not anti-Nomian/Torah; that
           wafers do not become actual-physical flesh and blood;
           that certain modern Trinity dogma has digressed from it's
           origional form into (at times) almost a poly-Theistic model
           that is contrary to the revelation of the Tri-Unity of the
           One G-d HaShem as shown in Scripture; rejection of
           Replacement Theology -&/or- Spiritual Israel as well as
           militant A-milleniumism {sp}; Two-seperate Covenant
           Theology etc...;  -Need I go on?
 RAL> ...they're Biblical Christians.  But they don't identify
 RAL> themselves as Christians.  Why not?
                           -BC> response <BC-
      The Y'hudim M'shacheeym came first, not the Goyim Christians.
      Look at it from an example that should make this clear to you:
           The Orthodox are Jews.  But they don't identify themselves
           as Reform Jews.  Why not? :-)
... 012 Sh'ma Yisrael: HaShem - El*hienu - HaShem ECHAD! ... 210                  
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