From: helie@bach.udel.edu (Ray Helie)
Subject: We /all/ have it easier than we think
Keywords: Life, Dating
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:20:17 GMT

earhard@ug.cs.dal.ca (Mark Earhard) writes:
 
" ... I'd have to agree with Sharon that
  it's a man's world when it comes to dating.  There seems to be a fundamental 
  problem with a lot of people's perception of how this "dating" thing works-  
  Both sides have limited power, but my opinion is that the guys have the 
  odds.  For example: "

I'll have to argue against that one.  But you are right, there is
a problem with some people's perceptions of how dating works.  8-)
Mine used to be a mess -- now it's just choatic.
  
" Him:  I like her, I think I'll ask her out.
  Her:  I don't really like him, so I think I'll refuse
  Ok, this ends up on her side, BUT...
  Him:  I like her, I think I'll ask her out.
  Her:  He seems nice, I think I'll say yes. 
  (they go out and have a reasonable time)
  Him:  I don't really think I want to start something with her
  Her:  I wish he'd call back... "

But how about this:  Her: (while out living her life and doing other 
things that she likes to do): "It would be nice if he would call (and 
leave a message on my answering machine if I was out)."  

And she could even, after some lapse of time, call him on a Weekend 
(assuming she got his number): "Listen, I'm heading down to the 
mall with so-and-so, want to join us and grab a bite to eat?"  
Doesn't even sound like a date.  

" I would *MUCH* rather be on the aggressive side of the argument- ie it's
  my option to ask/not ask, call/call back.
 
  For example-  I went out with this quite nice woman a couple of months
  ago, but she really just wasn't what I was looking for in an SO, so
  I let things peter off.  I know for a fact that it ended up with
  her waiting to see if I'd call again. "

But she didn't /have/ to wait -- and then it wouldn't bad at all for
her, would it?   And I'm sure if you were in her shoes, you 
would have respected her if she could have found a way to let
/you/ know that she wasn't interested.  I know it doesn't always
work that way, and I'm sure it's been done to you, but it doesn't
mean /you/ have to be the same way, does it?  8-)  
 
" The option to do something is IMHO *FAR* more valuble than sitting
  by the phone waiting for something to happen. "

That is very true.  Remember, women don't have to sit by the phone waiting
for something to happen.  They can just as easily find things they enjoy 
doing, friends to go out with, etc.  Then all of a sudden, it's not such a 
big deal that a guy hasn't called back yet, is it?  In fact, some other
guy will probably discover her and then /he/ will get to enjoy her 
company.
 
" I think women have a lot more at risk by being agressive than guys.  
  some guys just don't like women asking them out (I love it, and have 
  never refused a woman's invitation)- ... "

That's very true.  Remember, there are plenty of ways for a woman
to get near a guy without it even seeming like a date, or asking
him out (as in the previous example).  
  
" ...
  Sorry, I'd say it's a woman who has to make herself charming/available/
  desirable enough for the guy to call back.  ... "

If she's got a life, and is /not/ sitting at home, waiting for things
to happen, I'd say /that/ makes her incredibly charming and desirable.
At the same time, she's not going to feel powerless.  Hell, I'd
say it puts some helplessness back on the guy:  if he calls, then
it's back to whether or not /she's/ interested.  If he doesn't call,
she won't notice much, since she's so actively involving in living
her life. 

Actually, the same would go for the guy.  If he tries calling her,
and she's not interested, it won't bother him /near/ as much if he's
busy living /his/ life and enjoying it.  And I'm sure he will be much
more sought after as well.

" If she's not attracted to
  him, well, hell, what can you do?  Guys have the power of action or 
  inaction! "

Women /do/ have the power of action or inaction, as far as waiting for 
the call (inaction), or getting involved in living their lives (action).
 
" As for phone numbers, while you're sitting on your duff waiting for 
  someone to ask you for yours, how many are you giving out? "

That's just it -- if you're assuming the woman is sitting on her
duff, than your statements are completely accurate.  She
/shouldn't/ be "sitting on her duff".  If she's out living life and
enjoying herself, the situation changes dramatically!  So /now/,
as for life, while this guy's out giving out his phone number, she's
out living her life and enjoying herself (and I'm sure she's getting
many other offers to go out and do things).  Sounds to me like 
she's someone he /would/ want to call back.

" You get as much out of life as you put into it. "

Exactly, and as long as women are not /waiting/ for phone calls, they
are getting plently out of life (along with many phone calls from
guys who realize the value of this woman's company).
 
The bottom line is, both men and women have it much easier than 
they think.  When we stop treating the dating situation as the
main thing going on in our lives, and start living our lives
more fully, then attempts at dating become nothing more than 
one more way of experiencing the awesome diversity that life has to 
offer.  And finally you /will/ find someone that you get along 
with extremely well, and you can then help each other to live your 
lives even more fully.  8-)

I hope this didn't feel like an attack.  You've made a lot of good
points, and I simply disagree with some of them.  If you see any 
holes in what I've said (and I'm sure there are some), or you disagree
with me, go for it!  8-)  We are dealing with opinions, after all ...


Ray  8-)
Life /is/ great, isn't it!?!

*  Ray Helie         8-)                   University Of Delaware   *
*  [helie@bach.udel.edu]                   Newark, DE               *