From: selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering)
Subject: AP Brahmins
Keywords: Brahmins, Kapalika, Sakthi, Religious Practices
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 00:15:32 GMT

[ I am cross posting to soc.culture.tamil as I think it will be of
  relevance there]



In article <C0Ao5H.Btp@cs.psu.edu> narayana@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Kuram T Narayana) writes:
>In article <1993Jan2.162853.26018@news.acns.nwu.edu> rags@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Raghavan Jayaraman) writes:
>>In article <C04xMs.43r@cs.psu.edu> narayana@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Kuram T Narayana) writes:
>>>My earlier notes on AP brahmins gives the reader a broad 
>>>taxanomy. AS I said I am not sure if there are any saivite/Saaktha
>>>worshippers other than vaidiika one. In my notes on Hindu
>>>marriage  rituals, I made a stronger statement saying that
>>>I have not come across in my life a brahmin other than 
>>>the catogories that I had listed. When I wrote that, I had
>>>in mind two classes of Brahmins that philosophy texts relate.
>>>
>>>1) Kapalika Brahmins:
>>>
>>>Apparently in Northern Deccan, TN, and Bengal there was a 
>>>sect (not necessarily a brahmin sect, it is unclear) which
>>>used to follow the worship of Kapalika. At these worships,
>>>they were offering human sacrifices. I have not come across
>>>a brahmin from such sects.
>>
>>The historical references attribute them to the time of
>>chalukyas/Pallavas - as U   said they needn't be brahmins. 
>>
>
>All philosophy books refer to the Arayninzed aboriginals. These
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

      Yes, it appears some of the native dravidianoids accepted
      vedas and vedic practices but in the end the native religious
      practices and philosophies were transcribed into vedic language.
      I think the vedic rituals essentially became obsolete even within
      this small fraction of population which accepted vedas and vedic
      practices to start with. 

>are vaidiika sects, whether brahmin or nonbrahmin. But they also
>make a claim that, in some parts of the south worship of Shakthi,
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Kapalika rites are manifestations of the same, was prevelant. These
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     I think the Sakthi worship ( mother godess worship) is quite
     prevalent throughout India and even from the times of
     Indus Valley Civilization. Most villages have a godess associated
     with it. The Kapalika path is very esoteric and refers to the
     inner process within the brain but many unscrupulous persons
     ( criminals etc... I understand Anand Margis also practice some
      satanic versions of "Kapalika" path). In fact it is the Vedic lore
     which has rituals such as Aswamedha yaga and Purushamedha Yaga.
     Sri Sankaracharya of Kanchi in a book 
     Deyvaththin Kural ( = voice of God)
     says that the Purushamedha Yaga ( human Sacrifice) is not for
     Kali Yuga but indirectly admits its vogue in earlier times.
     It is my personal view that quite possibly many of the dravidianoid
     practices when translated into Sanskrit got misunderstood
     ( this is only a conjecture at present ) and misapplied. The
     Kundalini/ Serpent Power etc. are intensely psycho-physical
     and deeply involves brain but not in the sense of surgery but
     yet anatomical. It is said many experiences and functioning of the
     brain can be FELT in the brain. The so called nectar-pot between
     the eyebrows is an example. 

     The 'self-realization' involves 'mano_naasam' ( destroying the 
     ego-mind) and yet it involves real physical processes. The
     Mulan path ( the path of ThirumUlar author of Tamil work 
     Thirumanthiram ) clearly expalins in extremely simple words the
     extraordinary details. The great Siththu ( = magic deed; hence
     the philosopher-saints called Siddhars ) is supposed to be
     the self-realization which involves transforming the sexual
     energy into the energy which unlocks the wisdom chamber in the
     brain. This is also called the Yoga ( = join) which is the 
     "merging" of the Jeevatman with Paramatman ( we can ignore the
     finer distinctions of Ramanuja and others..)  

>are the aboriginals which have not been brought under the aryan fold.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    You often say "aryan fold". May I ask who decides this and who has
    this authority ? Is this not a narrow perspective in the sense
    that a small class of people decide based on some selective criteria?
    It is quite true that some people( native) do accept vedic practices or 
    original aryan ways of life but these have mostly been discarded
    ( I mean vedic rituals, yagas etc.). 

>It was banned under some law by the british. During my childhood one of
>my relatives from Chintamani in Karnataka used to tell us stories
>of some kid kidnapped by Kapalika brahmins; they apparently could not
>sacrifice him because the kid did not have yagnopaveetham. The ritual of
>human sacrifice of that sect requires a a brahmachary. How far this story
>is true, whether it was her imagination is anybody's guess! In AP,
>children are often therthened by saying, "look! the Malayalee Maanthreekudu
>will come". No offense intended for Malayaalese. Are there these nonaryanized
>aboriginal sects which perform these rituals; I seriously doubt that
>aryanization is complete in that every one follows the vedanta.

      Kuram Narayana, the above description of yours is at best
      quite childish ! There are well documented strange practices
      and a few books are available on them in English where they give
      abundant details including photos etc. 
      ( I don't have them handy but can provide details if needed)
      But you seem to get strong ideas from your relatives ! :-)
      
>
>Actaually it is useful to know what these fellows rituals are, what makes
>them perform human sacrifices, with what rites they are sacrificed and
>so on. I could not get hold of authentic sources, except for some indologists
>calims. It is useful if some kind scier can write up notes on these rites
>and so on!

       I will try to give some references..
>
>
>>>2) Tantrika Brahmins (of some variety):
>>>
>>>I have read that in TN there was a particular sect of brahmins
>>>which used to practice some tantra. This sect of people used to
>>>engage in secretive rituals in Smashaanams. During the course
>>>of the worship, there was no caste distinctions and both brahmins
>>>and nonbrahmins used to worship together in the rirual as equals. They
>>>used to drink at that time, engage in sodomy, and wife-swapping,
>>>and other XXX rated sexual acts. 
>>>
>>>This class of brahmins I have not come across in AP. I do not
>>>know that much about TN demography to rule it out from there.
>>>...kt
>>
>>I think here U are refering to sakti movement - as represented by Baskara
>>Rayar in TN. This is similar to sakti practices of kashmiri brahmins. Their
>>ritual called 'pancha magara' [five 'm's] refering to 5 steps starting with
>>word 'm'-[fish, liquor,sexual intercourse among the five]. No wife swapping
>>or XXX rated activities as U alluded to. Actullly this was followed and
>>advocated by 'Lashmipathi' [I think]. Baskararayar opposed such practicess
>>and he replaced the five steps with mudras which one invoked while starting
>>the puja.

         Raghavan, can you please give some references for
         Baskara Rayar etc. and the 'pancha magara' ?
>>
>
>Actaully the philosophy books do not refer to a specific person. Here again
>such Sakthi worshippers are said to be outside the pale fo vedanta.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     Yes, the general understanding is that the Mother Godess worship
     is non-vedic. Indus people and all the indians are mother godess
     worshippers. Almost every village has a deity which is a godess.
     This one of the reasons for may claim that the indian heritage
     is 90% non-vedic.  
>
>In the books that I read, it was mentioned that the rite were performed
>without caste distinctions by a group of people assembled in Smashaanams
>(cremation gorunds). There used to be sexual acts. Sometimes their
>wifes used to join the rites. The societies of these people is matriarchical.
>Female worship is viewed in all its sensuaousness. It is because this notion
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

       Only someone who does not understand the meanings and significance
       of the words will come to such conclusions. The sexual energy and
       control is intimately connected with the unlocking the wisdom chamber
       inside ones brain. I referred to this in my replies about
       Ravana earlier. 
       Your writings appear to give a very derogatory
       import for something which is extremely deep. Have you read 
       Adi Sankara's Soundarya Lahri ( I'm trying to draw Sri Sankara
       because you once unwittingly compared Sri Sankara and Mahatma
       Gandhi; and I am hoping you would take Sankara's words more
       seriously.. ofcourse S.Vidyasankar says that Soundarya Lahri was
       not written by Sri Sankara in an earlier post..)

>of females were participating occasionally in the  rites, I had to infer that
>they indulged in acts of sodomy. Because the females, when they participated,
>engaged in sex along with others, I believe that there was no such notion of
>'wife' entertained in those rites, and they may be indulging in wifeswapping
>and other XXX related activities. 

        You are making very strong claims from very flimsy grounds
        I'm afraid.


>
>Again the books themselves are not specific, in that they do not give the
>descriptinos of rites, some magic mantras etc. It is this pausity of
>information that leaves me wonder how well entrenched is this Sakthi worship.

               
>
>I do know that in our villiage there is a sadhu who performs sakthi worship.
>He has an asram, I was told 2 years ago in India, that the asram is flourishing
>with endowments from people and so on. For example, when I was in my SSLC,
>my self and my friend used to go to this place every evening and spend an
>hour talking to this sadhu! We had our doubts on the fellow, but yet he 
>never looked like someone who enaged in sex acts in cremation grounds etc.
>At that time we were only thinking that the guy performs some Kshudra
>sakthi pujas! Such things are common in villiages; gangamma, poleramma,
>anlkaalamma, tip-pot goddesses etc. But this guy was distinct though!
>He was in his youth, his worship was very tantric, and he was capable
>of hypnoptizing people. That is how the guy got the foothold in our
>villiage.
>
>But god knows! what he used to do at midnight on Amaavashya day!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

        You could have become a god if you had visited on Amaavashya
        day :-) You had NOT shown any misbehavior of this Sadhu and
        yet you imply wrong doing merely because he followed Sakthi
        path. I understand that Sankaraacharyas are primarily Sakthi
        upaasakas although they claim to be followers of Siva.

        
>
>>To say the least, not-necessarily brahmins who were involved in this [as I
>>can see from the folowers of Baskararayar in TN].
>
>I may agree that they may not be brahmins in the sense of Vedas.
>but they may be priestly classes from the aboriginal tribes.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

       Veda-following aryan tribes learnt many things from native
       tribes but still some aspects were not correctly learnt it
       appears. Brahmans were originally non-birth-based native 
       priestly and saintly or scholarly people. 
       Indra the hero-god of the Vedic
       tribes is often spoken as one who had done many brahminicides
       [ Cf. Rig Veda .. I can give the verse numbers later if
       required ..]
>
>>
>>raghavan
>>
>
>...kt


      - Selva
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