HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: U48073@uicvm.uic.edu (Cole Kendall)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,misc.writing
Subject: Re: Natalie Goldberg & teaching writing
Date: 28 Sep 92 15:19:56 GMT
 <t+1n1=p.tmaddox@netcom.com> <1992Sep25.233119.1560@midway.uchicago.edu>
 <r=_p7+a.tmaddox@netcom.com>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

In article <r=_p7+a.tmaddox@netcom.com>, tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) says:
>
>            .  Unless some alternate universe has Taken Over while I was away
>for the weekend, Natalie Goldberg makes a very good living selling copies of
>her books on writing and lecturing to people about the stuff in those books
>and running workshops according to the methods discussed in those books--
>
>        Her poetry may or may not yield car fare; it sure as fuck doesn't earn
>her a living--just ask a few publishing poets about how that one works.
>  [some text deleted]
>        It's not that I think she's a bad person, or even a bad influence
>(much of what she says seems reasonable enough to me, though a bit pop-eyed);
>I just feel a certain Wizard of Oz ambience in her whole act.

On a simlar note, I have been reading John Braine's "Life at the Top"
and "How to Write a Novel" (titles approximate).  It mystifies me that
a man whose major work was so unreadable could still be in print on
the subject of writing (I have not seen "Life" in print in any
bookstore, yet I found a large stack of recently printed "How Tos"
in downtown Chicago, not remaindered.)

Cole Kendall
From: ndrose@husc8.harvard.edu (Nathan Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: A Faulkner quote - help
Date: 7 Oct 92 00:51:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Oct6.205134.16132
Distribution: rec
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <D40374W.92Oct6225835@kaira.hut.fi> d40374w@kaira.hut.fi (Tero Valkonen) writes:
>
>I recently read a rather good Faulkner quote in Finnish and I'd like to
>know the original. The direct translation of the Finnish version is 
>something along the lines of "scratching the face of oblivion", but I
>wouldn't be surprised if the original were different. Help, anyone?
>
>Email preferred. 
>--
>Tero Valkonen
>d40374w@kaira.hut.fi

Hmm. I don't have it to hand, but Go Down, Moses includes a meditation
on the puniness of man's works, in which a road through Uncle Ike's
beloved wilderness is described as scratched out of a vast chaos (can't
remember the phrasing). The irony is that years later all that scratching
turns out to have added up, and not much is left of the wilderness by the
time of Ike's old age.
	Anyone have the exact phrasing handy?

Nathan Rose
From: c60b-2hz@web-3e.berkeley.edu (Nathaniel Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: lit quiz
Date: 1 Oct 1992 21:42:21 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: web-3e.berkeley.edu
Keywords: duo character style

I take offence to Lacey being referred to as Cagney's side kick, but
here goes:
I'm tempted to say Cervantes "Don Quixotte" is first sidekick novel (D.Q.
and Sancho Pacnchez, of course) but Dante's Divine Comedy (with Virgil
and Dante in Inferno and Pergatory and Beatrice and Dante in Paradise) 
could be agrued to be in this style but I'll go way out and say "Dialogues
of Socrates" with Socrates as hero and Plato as side-kick.
As for first murder story. That's Oedipus Rex by Sophocles.
And as for the name of the hero-sidekick style, I haven't the slightest
idea.
-Nathaniel

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.discrimination
From: sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Anti-Arab racism on the net
Keywords: Equality, Fairness, Same Standards?
Organization: my opinions only
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:43:34 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.032536.22581@news.columbia.edu>
ia4@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Imran Anwar) writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.122020.26563@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep29.034703.29223@news.columbia.edu> ia4@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Imran Anwar) writes:
>>>
>>>All I am sayin gis that if I wrote a book (like Iron Dream) and did not
>>>intend it to be satirical or humourous (I dont think many Jewish people
>>>would appreciate the humour) it is obvious that the book would be
>>>offensive and that I would have written it knowing that.
>>
>>Actually, I don't know of anyone, Jewish or otherwise, who found THE IRON
>>DREAM offensive.
>>
>>--Mike
>>
>
>Since I never heard of nor saw the book Iron Dream I do not know what 
>Jewish or other people's response was but if what I see THESE days is 
>anything to go by I would have a hard time believing that.

You don't know anything about the subject so you decide that Mike
probably isn't telling the truth.

>So, the issue is still that if I write an article in wish a character
>suggests things anti-Seimtic it would be attacked.

Can you tell the difference between someone saying "that was a vile
article and you shouldn't have written it" and "I'll pay $1,000,000 to
anyone who kills the author of that article"?

>Again, the idea is NOT to defend anti-Semitism, the idea is just to say
>that people's feelings are important, no matter what their religion
>or color or creed.

Unless, of course, they want to oppose Islam, in which case it's ok to
murder them?

Seth		sethb@fid.morgan.com
From: hoffman@cmf.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Hoffman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Mervyn Peake's _Titus Alone_
Date: 5 Oct 92 01:09:01 GMT
Organization: Connection Machine Facility, NRL
In-reply-to: amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI's message of 4 Oct 92 22:57:39 GMT


I too felt disappointed upon reading _Titus Alone_.

You are fortunate to have stopped where you did, since the deliberate
perversion of Titus's history by the scientist's daugther does a good
deal to corrupt the reader as well as Titus himself. 

How many more thousand pages do you think he could have consumed
in that one building, with a dwindling cast of characters? 

Perhaps better _Titus Alone_ than nothing. 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Literature of Travel (Was Re: literature students)
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:34:14 GMT


crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:

> I'd like to choose India.  Anyone have any suggestions for
> possibly appropriate books that aren't written by Forester
> or Jabvahl?  (I like them, but I've read them already.)

I wonder if Lauren means Forster.  If not, there is A PASSAGE TO INDIA.

Another good book about travelling to learn more about life is Somerset
Maugham's THE RAZOR'S EDGE -- which does have a portion about India.

Mark


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 26 Sep 92 16:58:16 GMT

   I was going to comment on this thread but then found the following
paragraph in Rebecca Radner's review of Paglia's new book in the San
Francisco Chronicle, which I think says it all:

          Paglia's success demonstrates that anyone with a tiny
          sense of timing, a willingness for her work to appear
          in Playboy, a mouth bigger than her brain, a narcissistic
          disorder, a passion for self-promotion and an atrophied
          ethical sense can make it big in this country.  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel)
Subject: Re: Literature students
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Distribution: world,local
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 14:30:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.233531.8864@galileo.physics.arizona.edu>, lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat) writes...

>I'm not very average in anything, let alone reading (I do it),

So, for the record, are you above or below the average - or are you
above the average on somethings, and below the average on others so
that on average you're average, or are you not average that way too?

Ron
From: gardiner@lib.uwo.ca (Margaret Martin Gardiner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Fictitious Fiction
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:31:31 GMT
Organization: Relayed-by-Sendmail
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
To: rec.arts.books@julian.uwo.ca


	Have just finished reading _Swann: a mystery_ by Carol
Shields.  The story centres on a symposium being planned to discuss 
the work of Mary Swann, an obscure, Canadian (fictitious) poet and the
subsequent disappearance of any traces of the existence of Swann's
poetry.  The book is divided into five parts, the first four look at the 
preparations for the symposium from the perspective of invited guests
and organizers - an academic, a biographer, a small-town librarian and
a publisher.  The last part is set up as a film with the director's
notes indicating that all the characters are fictitious, including the
poet Mary Swann.  Carol Shields uses a very light touch and her
descriptions of Chicago, Palo Alto and small-town Ontario are fun.  

	Carol Shields is considered a Canadian writer, although she
grew up in the States.  She now lives and works in Canada.  This is
the first book I have read by her, my interest sparked by a debate
between two classmates at break - one who had read her work and one who was
sceptical and was sure that it couldn't be good.  After reading this
novel, I would like to look at some of her short stories.  She also
has a new book _The Republic of Love_.  The title is off-putting, at
least to me, but the reviews have been good.

Margaret
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Question about the book The Upstairs Room
Date: 28 Sep 92 18:35:57 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <lc6luhINNgu8@news.bbn.com>, ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes:
> dougm@hal.com (Doug Moran) writes:
> : Clayton Cramer writes:
# :#      The Nazis didn't call themselves Nazis, but National
# :#      Socialists.  It should be apparent why the left-leaning
# :#      establishment in this country would prefer the less
# :#      instructive word "Nazi."
# :In any case, it has little to do with the "left-leaning political
# :establishment."
# 
# W.r.t. this purported "left-leaning political establishment" and its stance
# apropos the Third Reich, let's try to keep at least one foot grounded in a
# little historical reality.
# 
# It wasn't exactly the late-30s equivalent of the members of the YAF or
# Young Republicans who were running off to join to Abraham Lincoln Brigade.
# 
# N

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make.  The late 1930s
was when FDR was President.  I hope you aren't suggesting that the FDR
Administration was somehow equivalent to the Young Republicans.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Bush: War on Drugs, tax cut->bigger deficit.  Clinton: War on Drugs, spending
increase->bigger deficit.  What a great choice.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 04:37:34 GMT

In article <1a81ioINNovv@lindy.Stanford.EDU> jon@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:

>   I think I may have more experience to base my opinions of Paglia on
>than many people who talk about her.  For instance, the article which
>catapulted her into celebrity when it appeared in the New York Times
>Book Review and subsequently was reprinted elsewhere actually consisted
>of brief excerpts from a much longer article which appeared in the
>scholarly journal Arion and which was a review of two books on the
>history of sexuality.  I'm probably one of the few people around who read
>not only that original long article but also the two books of which it
>was a review.

Jon, your dates are wrong. Paglia was already in the limelight when the
various versions of her ARION article were published. This can be
confirmed by a Nexis check of references to Paglia prior to the 1991
publication of her article in ARION. (She became famous prior to the
publication of the ARION piece because of her book, SEXUAL PERSONAE.)

Incidentally, I read the long ARION article too. I've read some Halperin
and Winkler, although not the books she reviewed. It seems to me she made
some good points--especially the point about the questionable ethics of
linking the profits of the book to an AIDS charity in such a way as to
discourage negative reviews of the book (which might hurt sales).

Halperin subscribes to the social-constructivist view of homosexuality and
gender roles. It should be noted that many reasonable people disagree with
this view.

>both had
>career-long records of vigorous political activism in the cause of
>antidiscrimination, whereas for all her pseudopopulist bluster Paglia's
>own real-world political credentials are, to the best of my knowledge,
>null.

They're not null, but even if they were, Paglia's point is that
"career-long records of vigorous political activism," however meritorious
in themselves, do not serve as scholarly credentials. She's certainly
correct about this.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact 
mnemonic@eff.org| of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, 
(617) 864-0665  | both are transformed."
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --Carl Jung 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ceblair@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Charles Blair)
Subject: Re: gold bug variations
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: rec
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 19:23:43 GMT

   I read the first chapter or so of GOLD BUG VARIATIONS.  The characters
were interesting, the plot was promising, but I got tired of the author's
writing style.  He seemed very fond of using what, on first reading, looked
like the wrong word, but made sense (sort of) after further consideration.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rauchway@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Andrew Rauchway)
Subject: Re: Fictitious Fiction
Keywords: Morgenstern, Garp, Trout
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 06:29:06 GMT

In article <Bv3Ln1.F72@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> nickles@sage.cc.purdue.edu (john a nickles) writes:
>
>As the subject line says, I am looking for books (or movies or plays)
>in which reference is made to a book, movie or play that does not really
>exist.

What you really want to read is the granddaddy of all such intricacies, 
Vladimir Nabokov's _Pale Fire_.  Another classic example is "Tlon, Uqbar,
Orbis Tertius," by the extremely clever Jorge Luis Borges, who wrote many 
other excellent exercises in made-up works.  Oh, yeah, I just remembered 
another Borges fictitious fiction nonpareil:  "Pierre Menard, author of the
_Quixote_."  Read 'em, now.  For soon all the world will be Tlon. . . .

(Sorry, couldn't resist.  I'm a culture geek; what else can I say?)
Eric Rauchway                    /      My opinions are mine, and not those
rauchway@leland.stanford.edu     /      of the department or university.

Department of History                  Stanford University

*****Those who do not remember history are doomed to flunk my class.*****
From: lc1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Lori Cole)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: WWII Novels
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:31:10 GMT
Organization: Doctoral student, History, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

While not in the category of fiction, Studs Terkel's _The Good War_
might be as entertaining and enlightening a read as any out there.

Lori Cole
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller
Date: 29 Sep 92 15:10:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Sep29.151021.838
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

In article <1992Sep28.152656.14443@news.Hawaii.Edu>, jciliber@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jon Ciliberto) writes:
|> Has anyone had any experience with Edward R. Hamilton Booksellers? I've
|> received two catalogs of his, and I think i'll place an order (he carries
|> remainders, it seems; all new, mostly hardcovers). Any comments good or bad
|> on this vendor would be much appreciated...

I've been buying books from them for years, and recommend them most highly.
Every order I have placed has been filled promptly and without error.

One time I inadvertently underpaid my order by $1. Instead of holding my 
shipment or making some sort of vague threat, they simply included a polite
note, pointing out my error and asking that include the amount on my next
order. (yes, I did pay it) This was hardly a big deal for them or me, but
I appreciated the attitude.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              If you're really hip, the passing years will show.
                                           ......Tower Of Power

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Reinforced Burns (was Re: Enforced Shakespeare?)
Date: 29 Sep 92 23:31:21 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

Craig Cockburn writes:
> ... Robert Burns, probably the world's best known poet.

I looked at this several times before finally realizing that this was
tongue in cheek.  I still don't QUITE get the joke, but I'm now quite
willing to laugh quietly and politely along with others.

	the listening in the echoing dark Mr. E-----
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu          \  "What can be seen, heard, and learned, 
The insane don't need disclaimers \  this I prize." -- Heraclitus, #13
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Arthurian Booklist 
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:05:22 GMT

I notice, with some amusement, that Thomas Love Peacock's *THE 
MISFORTUNES OF ELPHIN* has been dropped from the Fiction list after a 
brief and misplaced appearance. Is this due to Peacock's somewhat 
irreverential tone?  Is it because Seithenyn is seen never sober? 
Were not Ceraint of Essyllwg, Gwrtheyrn Gwrthenau and Seithenyn 
ap Seithyn Saidi the Three Immortal Drunkards of the isle of Britain, 
or am I misreading the Mabinogion? But perhaps Ms Tuttle is right.
Maybe this Welsh tale is too rare for the FAQ, and we should share
Shelley's view that "His fine wit ... [is a] strain too learned for
this shallow age."

						Fido

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chuckg@meaddata.com (Chuck Greenwald)
Subject: Re: Lady mystery writers (was Sue Grafton)
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:36:43 GMT

I've found several new (to me) mystery writers in a series of anthologies
titled _Sisters_in_Crime_ (1-4 so far).  They contain short mysteries by
many of the women writing today, frequently using characters from 
series.  I just make a list of the authors who's style or character I like 
and "walah".  

I've had similar good fortune with a pair of anthologies called _Cat_Crimes_
and another, _Partners_in_Crime_ -- interesting because it is made up of
pairs of stories, one by a member of Sistes in Crime, the other by a 
member of Private Eye Writes of America. 

For those who like a bit of humor in their mysteries, I recommend Joan Hess'
series set in Maggody, Arkansas.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Greenwald                     |   chuckg@meaddata.com  
Mead Data Central                   |   (513) 865-1020

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Richardson Thing
Date: 1 Oct 92 17:06:10 GMT
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

Stephanie Moskal Fysh writes:
> [I] have read _Clarissa_ 4 times.  

The mind boggles.  I have been saving up the complete, unabridged
CLARISSA for some future penance.  I do find interesting the fact 
that its supposedly moralistic ending is morally bankrupt, but I
find it so unbelievable that I threw my last copy across the room 3
times.  The dents in the wall were nearly as large as those made by 
the CRC.

Actually, I have a friend who is behind in reading CLARISSA for to
write his senior honors thesis.  I have given him my gravest
sympathies.

	the fan of 18th century novels, except HIS, Mr. E-----
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu          \  "One like a wombat prowled obtuse
The insane don't need disclaimers \  and furry"  --Christina Rossetti
From: vks0@bunny.gte.com (Vijay Samalam)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Who reads Rushdie?
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:02:32 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: GTEL

In article <91228@netnews.upenn.edu> crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. 
Crawford) writes:
> I read "Midnight's Children" in Nepal,
> just before heading into India, and found it extremely powerful, one of
> those books that changes the way you think about fundamental things.  But
> then, Nepal has that effect, too. 

As you had previously mentioned  books closely
tied to travels, and since I gather from your posts
that you have travelled in Asia might I recommend
Pico Iyer's "Video nights in Katmandu" ? This recommendation
goes to anyone else who enjoys travel books. The book
has interesting observations on most of the countries
in Asia including Burma by an Indian born, educated
in Eton and Oxford, but spent most of his life growing up
in California but now currently a Time correspondent.
Whew ! He must be either thoroughly confused or
unnaturally enlightened ! Pico Iyer, I mean.

Regards,
-Vijay

************************************
Vijay K. Samalam        fiat experimentum in    
GTE Laboratories          corpore vili                    
Waltham , MA 02254
e-mail vks0@gte.com INTERNET
************************************
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Books in the time of Love
Keywords: Flaubert, fairs, fair ladies
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:27:51 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Oct1.180035.13193@cheshire.oxy.edu> rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney) writes:
>	Mark Taranto seems to be chomping at the bit for tales
>of romance and reading: perhaps if any of us could relate how
>being forced to read THE TEMPEST affected our first high school
>romance, this thread would really get rolling :-7  


And thereby hangs a tale.  My great-grandfather taught classes in 
Shakespeare at DePauw (then a normal school).  In the course of 
teaching _The Tempest_ he noticed that two of his students appeared 
to be sweet on each other, but a little shy, so he began to playfully 
refer to them by the names of the pair of lovers in the play. 

They later married, and every year for the rest of his life he received 
a Christmas card from them.  The card was always addressed to "Prospero," 
and signed "Ferdinand and Miranda." 

--Barbara 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: trb@cbnews.cb.att.com (tom.balent)
Subject: Re: WWII Novels?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 11:26:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.175245.4798@nas.nasa.gov> wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
>	"There NEVER
>	was a mutiny on an American ship!" and don't you forget it.  
>
>I have heard this statement before and don't believe it true.  
		.
		.
		.
>Corrections will be, no doubt, forthcoming from our nautical and historical
>experts.

While I am no expert, I did serve in the Navy, and their official
line is that there has never been a mutiny on an American ship. (In
fact I think in Wouk's book he has a disclaimer to that effect.)

Now, that is the Navy's view - it may come down as to what do you call
a mutiny, and what does the Navy call a mutiny?  

Besides the other incidents mentioned, one more closer to home was the 
events documented in a book titled (with possible spelling errors)
The Arhieter Affair - about a destory off the coast of Vietnam during
the 60's that came very very close to a mutiny, due to the strange
behaviour of the captain.

tom