HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Checking on teaching
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:57:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.182002.17736@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> klf@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (karen.l.fenton) writes:
>In article <8NOV199200272917@comet.nscl.msu.edu>, burtt@comet.nscl.msu.edu (BRIAN BURTT) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov08.033354.24640@mwc.vak12ed.edu>, wwarrick@mwc.vak12ed.edu (William D. Warrick) writes...
>> 	Sit in on classes, and hold teachers accountable if they are teaching
>> poorly (as well as reward those who are teaching well).  I.e., get some
>> idea of what is going on in the school(s), rather than just going to 
>> the appointed board meetings.
>> 	If you are feeling really daring and liberal, try to convince your
>> other board members to do the same.


>This is absolutely precluded by most union contracts I've seen.
>And even if (IF!) one were allowed to do this, I'd like to see
>a show of hands from all of you who feel that *I*, a software
>developer with no training whatever in education methodology, classroom
>techniques, psychology, or staff development/evaluation, should be
>allowed to sit in and formally evaluate teacher performance.

>Thanks. I didn't think so.

>It's all *so easy* when you don't know the laws or limits, isn't it???

I do not think that sitting in on classes is necessarily a way of checking
on how good a teaching job is done; it is most likely going to check on
whether the teacher is teaching as the one sitting in wants.  Looking at
performance in future classes, taking into account the preparation of the
student, is far better.

But as to your second question, I am far from alone in my belief that it
is only those with the lack of training you feel disqualifies you who
are capable of evaluating the teachers.  It is precisely those "adept"
in these items of miseducational philosophy who are responsible for
the present bad teaching, bad curriculum, etc.


-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: I won
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 01:55:46 GMT

In article <1992Nov08.033354.24640@mwc.vak12ed.edu> wwarrick@mwc.vak12ed.edu (William D. Warrick) writes:
>hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com  writes:
>> I won the race for School Board in my community.  Now the hard part, can I
>> really make a positive difference?
 
>> Bill Hunter

>PUT THE KIDS FIRST.
 
I have an even more radical suggestion, and probably one too radical to
be put into practice in a public school:  Put EDUCATION first.

What I mean by that is that the education of the students should be the
primary concern of the school, not just as a mater of rhetoric, but as a
matter of living policy.  Are school sports going to be allowed to drain
money that could be used for educational pursuits?  Will time be taken out 
of academic classes for sports rallies?  Is "social adjustment" to be
considered an important goal of the school?  What about tenure for teachers?
Does it contribute to the education of the students?  Or does it suppress
the advancement of good young teachers and entrench those with seniority 
whether they are good at educating students or not.  What about driver
education?  Does that contribute to the education of students?  What do the
teachers and staff show an interest in with regard to student lives?  Sports?
Romance?  Family problems?  Condom availability?  Or Intellectual development,
literature, and science?  When a teacher is uninterested or unable to
effectively teach students, is he in danger of being fired?  Or is that
of superior importance compared to the lost development of the students?


The implicit lesson schools teach by failing to make the right choices on
these kinds of issues is that intellectual development is the LEAST important
thing going on at school.  Sure, teachers and administrators pay lip service
to the idea that education is important, but their actions are clearly 
hypocritical to even the dullest freshman.

--Brian
From: luden@lehigh.edu (Dean E. Nelson)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:59:08 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University Computing Center

In article <ARA.92Nov11034458@camelot.ai.mit.edu> 
ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:

>As I have pointed out on other occasions, if they would improve the
>working conditions, they could have PhD's teaching in the public schools.
>I don't mean improve them a little. I mean offer working conditions that
>would make a PhD happy and the glut of unemployed and underemployed
>PhD's will beat down the doors of the schools trying to get in.

>The working conditions say most eloquently how little the public cares
>about education.

>Allan Adler
>ara@altdorf.ai.mit.edu

I am interested to know what working conditions you feel are poor, and 
specifically what attitudes do these conditions tell us the public has about 
education.

Dean Nelson  den0@lehigh.edu
From: burtt@cycvax.nscl.msu.edu (BRIAN BURTT)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: I won
Summary: crazy idea
Date: 11 Nov 92 07:24:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: NSCL Michigan State University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Nov9.182002.17736@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>, klf@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (karen.l.fenton) writes...
>In article <8NOV199200272917@comet.nscl.msu.edu>, burtt@comet.nscl.msu.edu (BRIAN BURTT) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov08.033354.24640@mwc.vak12ed.edu>, wwarrick@mwc.vak12ed.edu (William D. Warrick) writes...
>> 	Sit in on classes, and hold teachers accountable if they are teaching
>> poorly (as well as reward those who are teaching well).  I.e., get some
>> idea of what is going on in the school(s), rather than just going to 
>> the appointed board meetings.
>> 	If you are feeling really daring and liberal, try to convince your
>> other board members to do the same.
>> --Brian Burtt
>> Undergraduate major in physics and mathematics
>> Michigan State University
>> burtt@lynch.nscl.msu.edu
>> 
> 
> 
>This is absolutely precluded by most union contracts I've seen.
>And even if (IF!) one were allowed to do this, I'd like to see
>a show of hands from all of you who feel that *I*, a software
>developer with no training whatever in education methodology, classroom
>techniques, psychology, or staff development/evaluation, should be
>allowed to sit in and formally evaluate teacher performance.
> 
>Thanks. I didn't think so.
> 
>It's all *so easy* when you don't know the laws or limits, isn't it???
>Karen
> 
	If you have no qualifications in education, then what are your
qualifications for being on a school board and making decisions about
education?  (This isn't a flame, but rather a geuine question)
	Why, except for basic job security of their less able members,
are teachers' unions so opposed to teachers being judged on their
performance?
--Brian Burtt
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Re: EDUCATION, MONEY, AND THE FACTS OF LIFE
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:27:36 GMT

In article <75720020@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com>, donp@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Don Pettengill [CT R+D]) writes:

|> But I think we all know that their administrative overhead is a lot
|> less than the public schools!

Although it naturally varies widely, on Long Island, Administrative overhead per
student in public school averages about SIX TIMES what it does in private school.
In an extreme example, comparing my school district with the private school in
which my mother teaches, the ratio is over 40. Salaries are less than
half, secretaries per administrator are half, and the number of administrators
per student is reduced MANY times over.

Jason W. Solinsky
From: carolyn@allen.com (Carolyn Allen)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: I won
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 92 21:40:06 EST
Organization: Allen Marketing Group - Raleigh, NC

hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter) writes:

> I won the race for School Board in my community.  Now the hard part, can I
> really make a positive difference?
> 
> Bill Hunter


Congratulations, I've considered running for school board at some time in 
the coming few years. Tell me about how you did it, what you ran into 
during the campaign, and why you are doing it...as well as what you hope 
to accomplish.  Your input will help me stretch my mind and get a better 
grasp on the realities involved.  Thanks, Carolyn
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: dhosek@hmcvax.claremont.edu
Subject: Proof that small classes=better education?
Organization: Quixote Digital Typography
Date: 13 Nov 92 19:19:36 PST

Now, I _know_ that smaller classroom size improves the
educational quality of a school (more individual attention to
students, etc.) but I'd like to be able to convince the "show me,
don't tell me" people (I read an article in a local paper from a
community member who thought we should double class sizes and use
video instruction in place of teachers in some classes! Even
assuming that this is an isolated crackpot, it's a voice which
might be listened to by easily influenced voters) so I want to
get statistics which can help prove my point (e.g., school by
school comparisons showing correlation between class sizes and
test scores, college admission, drop-out rates, etc.). If anyone
can help me on this, I'd appreciate it.

-dh
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: dons@is.ussprint.com (Don Stadler)
Subject: Re: 2-dimensional grading system (was Re: What can one do for the bright?)
Organization: US Sprint-IS
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:15:57 GMT

>At the risk of sounding like Attilla the Hun, or one of his many clones,
>have you ever known anyone who got through their study/ professional
>training by working much harder than anyone else, only to find
>that they then had to struggle for the rest of their lives, holding their
>own in an environment in which they remained almost out of their 
>depth?  In other words, they obtained their credential as a prize 
>for working harder rather than as an index of their ability to cope.

I suppose it happens. My experience has been that hard work combined with
decent intelligence works quite well. I don't particularly "struggle". 
Lately I tend to surpass. The hard work needs to be applied toward 
understanding rather than as a substitute for understanding.

Hmmm. I don't remember working all THAT hard in school, except on writing.
My experience was that more research and more drafts definately paid off
when writing papers (both on grades and depth of learning). On tests I
found that overstudy made me go stale, so I would do my readings, review,
and get a good nights sleep.
From: spurrett@superbowl.und.ac.za (David Spurrett)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Question: Abstract disciplines and academic performance
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:57:58 GMT
Organization: University Of Natal (Durban)
NNTP-Posting-Host: pc15.superbowl.und.ac.za

I am interested to hear from anyone who knows of research into the 
relationship (empirical, not necessarily causal) between the study of highly 
abstract subjects like philosophy and mathematics, and the general academic 
performance of the student/s in question.  I know of one study which found a 
close link between study of phil or math, and dramatically above average 
performance in all other areas.  This study did not have any control groups
(from say high school level) to see if any causal link was suggested, which 
is my area of most intense curiosity at present.  Either follow on the net
(if this is the correct group, otherwise sorry for any offence) of email.

Thanks,

o------------------------------------------o------------------------------o
| David Spurrett, Department of Philosophy |  `I have seen the truth, and |
| University of Natal, Durban              |   it makes no sense.'        |
| email: spurrett@superbowl.und.ac.za      |              - OFFICIAL!     |
o------------------------------------------o------------------------------o
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: Funding position in Californian universities
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:11:02 GMT

In article <17271@mindlink.bc.ca> Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>Colin Bell of Cambridge University writes:

>A friend of mine is intending to do a PhD in the USA, possibly at either
>Berkeley or Stanford, getting funding from the university in question if
>possible. He's worried about what effects the current financial crisis
>in California will have on these two universities and his funding. If
>there's someone out there who knows what the situation's like, could
>they e-mail me with pertinent information? I will of course pass it onto
>anyone who asks me for it.

A more important question is why a businessman like myself should have
any interest in having my money wasted in such vast amounts by the
universities.  Of course, I am given no choice in the matter, but 
before you or your friend whine about this funding, you should ask
yourself whether you have any right to that funding.

>I don't have details on Berkeley or Stanford, but a friend of mine at UC
>Riverside last summer earned a promotion and a 5% pay cut simultaneously--and
>this is a renowned scholar with several books to his credit.

If he's such a renowned scholar, and such a valuable person, why can't he just
get someone to voluntarily pay his wages?  Almost everyone else in society has
to do this, why does he think he is an exception?

>Last week's issue of The Chronicle of Higher Education displayed a map of the
>US showing relative funding levels of post-secondary in the various states;
>California's funding has dropped 12% in the last 2 years. This does not bode
>well for one of the biggest and best college and university systems in the
>world. What it bodes for individual graduate students I don't know; much may
>depend on the political fashionability of the discipline and the research
>field, 

Indeed, politics in a determinant of much research, and thus makes a lot of it
invalid or or simply worthless.

>or even the financial creativity of particular scholars.

Indeed, their creativity in spending MY money is quite important.

>Perhaps the most striking aspect of the North American crisis in
>post-secondary education is that the professariat--by definition among the 
>best and brightest minds we have--hasn't come up with any useful solutions.

I think you have not met enough professors, or you wouldn't say things like
that.

--Brian

Newsgroups: misc.education
From: wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Subject: Re: Gifted students in public education: what can be done?
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 22:18:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.123325.1@hmcvax.claremont.edu> dhosek@hmcvax.claremont.edu writes:
>ask, what can be done about how talented students are taught
>within the public school system (I'm asking this question as a
			...
>Don't
>worry about practicality, costs, etc. If it's a good idea and
>worth doing a way to do it can be found with a great deal of hard
>work.
>
>-dh

Learnign involves making MISTAKES.  This is one of the most important
things to remember.  If you're not making mistakes, it may very well
mean that you're only rehasing stuff that you're already familiar with,
without using that knowledge that you've acquired to expand into new
territories.
	That's why I'm always skeptical about people getting very,
very good marks on a test.  You'd have to ask the tester how he/she
evaluates the test.  If you're a math student, getting 95 on every
test is NOT something to crow about.  It may mean that you're not
pushed, i.e. you know what you can do but not what you CANNOT do.
Knowing what you CANNOT do is vital to learning because it would
provide you with a route to take when learning, i.e. you learn by
finding holes in your knowledge bank and proceed to fill them out.

	This method of learning is harder to accomplish in the
humanities.  I guess a very good example of how we can learn is
the way Evergreen State College conducts itself.  No grades given
at all; only written evaluations.  But they're supposed to be very
respected, at least that's what I read from Edward B. Fiske's "College
Guide."  I think Mr. Fiske's the New York Times editor of the
education section.

	Another great book to read: "The Quality School: MAnaging
Students Without Coercion" by William Glaser.  HarperPerrenial, 2nd
edition, 1992. ISBN 0-06-096955-5.  Paper. u.s.$11/=.
	or how about the Carnegie Foundation report by Ernest L.
Boyer : "College education: The undergraduate Experience."  I'm not
quite sure as to the correctness of the title.

Newsgroups: misc.education
From: dhosek@linus.claremont.edu
Subject: Running for school board
Organization: Quixote Digital Typography
Date: 8 Nov 92 22:58:46 PDT

As a prospective school board candidate and noting the presence
of another (Carolyn) and a successful candidate as well, this is
as good a forum as any to discuss the topic of school board
candidacy and what can be done. I guess we can consider this the
start of a thread on the topics of how to win and what to do once
you win.

-dh
From: imp@solbourne.com (Warner Losh)
Newsgroups: boulder.general
Subject: Re: Amendment 2
Date: 12 Nov 1992 11:48:24 -0700
Organization: ParcPlace Boulder
Distribution: co
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin-gw.solbourne.com

In article <1992Nov11.150124.770@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> dhanson@nyx.cs.du.edu (David L. Hanson) writes:
>Sodomy is a choice of lifestyle and it is a sinful and wicked choice.
>It is utterly abhorant to God and will bring judgement to the sodomites
>and their defenders.

In article <1992Nov11.202131.24666@colorado.edu> bernstei@ophelia.cs.colorado.edu (Michael Bernstein) writes:
>And pi is 3, and women who wear red are whores, and ...

And the wearing of fabrics woven from two or more different fibers....

Warner
-- 
Warner Losh		imp@parcplace.COM	ParcPlace Boulder
I've almost finished my brute force solution to subtlety.
Xref: sparky boulder.general:1018 co.politics:1919
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Newsgroups: boulder.general,co.politics
Subject: Re: What happened to all the referenda... R
Date: 12 Nov 92 02:51:01 GMT
Followup-To: co.politics
Distribution: co
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO


  [followups to co.politics]

dg> Dirk Grunwald

dg> When was the last time you heard of people going straight-bashing? 

  I can't say as I have. Then again, some people engage in bashing for the 
  sake of bashing, the specifics of the victims being irrelevant.

dg> As it is, there has allegedly been an increase in gay-bashing since 2
    passed; people view this as a sanction to condem behavior their deem
    abhorent.

  I'm not quite sure what your meaning is here; anyway, the point is that if
  some people view #2 as an "excuse" to bash gays isn't #2's fault, it's the
  fault of the people doing the bashing. That's like saying Bob couldn't help
  but stab Bill, after all, lots of places sell knives. How can he resist?

  Besides, #2 doesn't condone violent attacks on gays.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Newsgroups: boulder.general
From: asano@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Yoshiteru ASANO)
Subject: event on US-Japan relation
Summary: panel discussion on US-Japan relation
Keywords: US-Japan relation
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 06:15:33 GMT

"The Coming War With Japan!?"
   Panel Discussion featuring an author of a book
      "The Coming War With Japan", Dr. George Friedman (Amer. Univ. of WashDC)
       with Dr. Pempel (Poli Sci, CU-Boulder) and
            Dr. Kim (Japan Studies, Teikyo-Loretto Heights Univ.)

   An author of the above book will give a presentation on his book and a panel
   discussion on US-Japan relationship will follow.

   *** Open to public/Admission free ***

   6:00pm, Saturday, November 14
B
   Math 100 (CU-Boulder campus)

   Sponsored by Japanese Students Association at Boulder
                Cultural Events Board / UCSU
                Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs
                Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs

   For details, call JSA at 492-1095 or stop by at UMC030
 


   
Newsgroups: boulder.general,co.politics
From: gary@isis.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: Amendment 2 (was: What happened to all the refe)
Followup-To: co.politics
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Distribution: co
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 18:06:31 GMT

[followups to co.politics]

tc> Timonthy Cuffell
sc> Shawn Copeland

sc> This means that it is unconstitutional in the state of colorado to provide
    state-wide or local protection against discrimination. [...]

tc> Great.
tc> Are you gay?
tc> Yes.
tc> You're fired.

  Or, if companies/others protecting themselves from claims of discrimination
  (usually by statistical means), enact quotas:

  Employer:  "Are you gay?"
  Applicant: "Yes."
  Employer:  "You're hired, because we need 3 more."

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Newsgroups: boulder.general
From: judd@wilkinson.cs.colorado.edu (Stephen Judd)
Subject: Second Amendment discussions do not belong here
Followup-To:  co.politics.amend2.discuss
Organization: Universtiy of Coloardo, Boulder
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:54:09 GMT

Friends and neighbors, ladies and gentlemen, this is simply not the place
for soporific pseudointellectualism.  As I recall, a new group was created
specifically for the discussion of amendment 2.  Please take this
discussion to a more appropriate group.  If I wanted to read pedantic
arguments over fairly trivial things I would simply pick up a Colorado 
Daily.

Note the Followup-To: line.

Notes to selected posters:

David Knapp - Quoting current psychological theory is a dubious practice at
	best.  After all, if you did this twenty years ago you would be
	saying that homosexuality is a psychological disease.  The simple
	fact of the matter is that, although there are many people who
	think they do (that goes for individuals both for and against),
	nobody really understands homosexuality.

David Hanson - Sodomy and homosexuality are not the same, as some other
	individual pointed out.  You cannot call yourself a rational,
	intelligent person and at the same time claim that the Bible
	specifically prohibits homosexuality, either.

I judge every person as an individual.
I have friends who are gay.
I support my gay friends.
I do not support the mainstream gay movement.  In fact, I have rarely seen
a more hateful, spiteful, and immature group of people.  Certainly not
a good way to gain my support for your cause.

I am not a resident of Colorado and intend to stay that way.  I have no
further interest in this so-called "conversation."  Please take it
elsewhere.

					-Steve
--
judd@colorado.edu   //   FORTRAN is God's language.
                  \X/
From: stevem@solbourne.com (Stephen Matson)
Newsgroups: boulder.general
Subject: Re: Amendment 2
Date: 11 Nov 1992 13:37:48 -0700
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc., Longmont, CO
Distribution: co
NNTP-Posting-Host: katmandu.solbourne.com

dhanson@nyx.cs.du.edu (David L. Hanson) writes:
>
>"Jesus saith unto him, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life: NO MAN
>cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME"  John 14:6
>
>"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."
>

  "And Jesus said 'Do not be concerned with the splinter in your brothers 
   eye until you have removed the plank from your own'"

  "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"