Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu)
Subject: Re: How Turkic Are the "Uygurs"
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Distribution: na  
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:14:54 GMT

In article <18467@mindlink.bc.ca> Sanyee_Tang@mindlink.bc.ca (Sanyee Tang) writes:
>    I don't know how close are Uighurs genetically to people in today's
>Turkey.  So please excuse me for talking about what happened to them in
>the Tang Dynasty.  But that is what others are talking about, too :-).
>
>    Tang Dynasty's founding father allied with the Eastern Turks to take
>the China.  Then they beat their previous ally and rendered the Eastern

well Li3 Yuan1 and sons did get some support from the TuJie, something
like "500 fast forces" when they rebeled against Sui Dynasty, but mainly
the agreement was that TuJie stop raiding Li3 Yuan1's territory.  

but TuJie did not honor the agreement very well, Tang had to constantly
watch its back while dealing with other warlords, and TuJie raids at
that time threatens not only border states but also chinese heart land.

after Li ShiMin had his coup-d'etat and became Emperor, once again
TuJie invades without provocation and inviolation of the treaty, that
time there reached the north bank of river Wei, like 20 miles from
the Chinese Capital,  Li ShiMin was so angry that he went to meet
the Khans without his imperial guards(and nobody can assemble a force
in that time), accross the river he accused the TuJie Khans of violating
the treaty, and dared them he'll come over the river to "talk" to them,
luckily the former "Prince of Qin" and the newly installed Emperor
had such a good larger than life reputation in battle and also famous
of brilliant tactics, the TuJie Khans both respect & fear him,  
he basically bluffed the TuJie into retreat with only 6 mounted guards
with him(and that the imperial guards gathered in time to show up
at the right moment), never the less it was quite a scare, that once
again the Chinese Capital was threatened by them.  From that moment on 
Li ShiMin decided he must wipe out the East TuJie once and for all or 
he could not sleep well at night.  

>Turks to shambles.  To maintaining the peace in the north frontier, Tang
>emperor allowed Uighurs to take Mongolia in 744, thus wiped the Eastern
>Turks out for now and all.  Apparently the Uighurs were grateful to Tang's
>acquiesce, they became Tang's voluntary ally since then.  But I am not sure
>whether they were ever in a vessal status.
>
[......] 
>before we Han Chinese :-).  So they were rated higher in Mongols' "loyality
>scale" :-), i.e.,  Mongol > "Colored eyes" > Han > the Southerner.  Though
>Yuan emperor was supposed to be the Greater Khan of all the four Mongol
>Khanates, I don't know how legitimately we can claim Xinjiang was a part of
>China in the Yuan Dynasty.  They were under a Khanate different from ours.
>
>    In article <92Dec10.165619est.54@orasis.vis.toronto.edu> (10 Dec 92)
>Yuanhui Liu writes,
>
>> One Tang Emperor (I believe it's De Zong) was humiliated once by the Khan
>> of Hui2Hu2 while he was still a prince (but the crown prince never the
>less,
>> and at that moment a field marshal of the Tang Army), even later the
>Emperor
>> personally hate the Khan he dared not break the alliance.
>
>    But Tang royalties did take revenge on their valuable yet demanding
>ally in a rather ugly way.  After Uighurs' defeat in Mongolia, Manicheism
>was immediately outlawed in China.  Then religious persecution went into
>rampage, fanned by some zealous Taoists in particular, and the Buddhism got
>its last major blow-out before CCP's persecutions a thousand years later.
>
yeah well, this is like beating a dead horse, anyway, during the
reign of Tang Wu3 Zong, he was also violently against buddhaism,  
he ordered monks and nuns back to secular farming life, and limited
numbers of temples and their occupants in each state.  
in imperial Chinese history religious power rose and fell with the
Emperor's tolerance and his mood of the day.  

>    That leaves a question: before Uighurs took Mongolia at 744, where did
>they live?  My guess is that they were in farther north of today's Xinjiang
>and Mongolia.
>
I think part of northern XinJiang and north-west mongolia too, since
they were a vessal of TuJie, they probably occupied the same area as them.
>


Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.asian.american