From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 18:22:31 GMT

First off, I side myself with those who knock them over (not all
cairns and ducks), and you know something, I've been given the authority
by the Park and Forest Services to do this (for the person who mentioned
Rangers) as part of dealing with summit registers.  The Rangers do this
(knock many of them over [and they get placed back up] even when they are
regarded as "not needed"]).  They ask this at times. [No trace ethics.]
I have also made and used them as temporary markers destroying them after use.


I was standing waiting for a food drop when the Ranger (Carder:
we met her on the way out, too [in the words of Linus Pauling Kamb:
"She is so cute that I'm certain that every strapping mountain man asks
her out and I am certain she has to turn them down."  "But Linus, you are
spoken for."  "I can look can't I?" "Oh, ok." {she also has a huge dog.}])
where was I, of yes, the ranger was breaking up fire rings and redirecting
traffic on a trail.  Of course a horse packer came by and just ignored them.
I watched Carder work for an hour trying to make the area look natural.


The environmental justification for using ducks is at best temporary.
Current trail building methodology is to raise the trail above or go around
things like meadows.  You should be seeing this (two logs or rows of stones,
packed earth, and drainage: this is empirical, everyone at trail building
conferences know that ultimately (1.0E4 AD 8^) trails will gave to get
paved by something sturdier than soil like concrete or asphalt: just too
many people moving too many grains of soil).  You see the problem is that
while we discuss ducks and cairns (this is the third time), a lot of novices
don't see them for the piles of rocks they are.  They get lost. [They don't
know how to read blazes either.]  Ducks/cairns existed long before
environmental concerns.  They largely aren't.

I did a little research looking for Roper's fervant words on the subject
(2 paragaphs I found out later), but my copy of Roper was buried some where
and I chanced to turn to my 60s copy of the Climber Guide to the Sierra
by the late Hervey Voge.  It was an issue back then. Herve said in one
paragraph (and Roper repeated those powerful words):

	it is better for a climber to judge the situation for himself
	than to blindly follow a series of ducks.

I eventually found Roper:

	 Small piles of stones - called ducks, carins, or stonemen -
	have become an eyesore all over the high country.  One time I was
	behind a pack of Boy Scouts who were ascending Gabbot Pass.
	There were twenty of them, and as they drifted in separate packets
	over high meadows and gentle talus fields they built such sturdy and
	so abundant a supply of ducks that it took me an extra hour and an
	extra mile to destroy them all.  I had better things to do, and
	I would hate to be thought of as a duck pervert, but I genuinely
	shutter each time I see those little piles which someone else has so	
	kindly placed to help me one my way.  WHAT ARROGANCE the duck-builder
	has!  Does he believe that he has found the only possible route?
	Does he believe that he has checked out all the alternate routes?
	Does he think we can't find our own way?
	 It is not only the populated areas of the Sierra [note lack of 's'
	;^)] and it is not only the Boy Scouts who build ducks.  In the
	difficult-to-reach Gorge of Despair I found hundreds of ducks which
	must have been built by rockclimbers since few others see the valley.
	There were ducks on class 1 slabs, ducks which laboriously took me
	to a class 2 ledge instead of a direct class 2-3 route, and ducks
	which led through brushfields to a stream crossing.  Hervey Voge
	hated ducks too and he wrote a powerful paragraph against them
	in the original climber's guide.  He pointed out:
	"it is better for a climber to judge the situation for himself
	than to blindly follow a series of ducks."  I maintain
	unequivocally that ducks in the High Sierra should be destroyed.
	They are not only unnecessary and misleading, but they ruin the sense
	of adventure for those who believe however falsely that they are
	explorers trodding over new ground.
	
The original simpler paragraph reads (Voge):

	"Ducks" made up of two or three stones stacked vertically have been
	place by various person to mark routes on peaks and along
	knapsack routes.  These are sometimes useful, but should be viewed
	with SKEPTICISM.  Many ducks have little significance.  Some may
	led to poorer routes.  The climber who encounters ducks down not
	usually know what the builder of the duck had in mind, and 

	it is better for a climber to judge the situation for himself
	than to blindly follow a series of ducks.

	Sometimes a duck is built to mark the right (or the wrong) chute
	for descent from a ridge.  It is the feeling of the editor that
	climbers who know their business will rarely need a duck to find a
	return route. If a duck is built for such a purpose it is usually
	best to destroy it on return.  The building of ducks, except in a
	few exceptional places, should probably be discouraged.

I know other guides to have similar words.

Crepe paper tape was not mentioned this time, but...
This line of discussion is probably among the more important the group can
engage.  To repeat, this does not have to do with the issues of marked trails.
Yes, you can use maps, and they do move trails.  And of course this is a thing
more oriented to parts of the US (your experience in the Alps and the
Hindu Kush will vary, do some book reading for those).

We are not discussing the Hinterstoisher (sp) Traverse here. 8^)
Besides, ultimately some one will litigate a bad trip over this.
Just you watch.

	"Disappearing Dome is so named because the first ascent party
	got lost on the way back to their car."

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
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A Ref: Climbers Guides to the High Sierra by Steve Roper and earlier edition
	by the late Hervey Voge
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry