From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Idolatry and atheism are equal
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 00:46:07 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <921013084501.2020372e@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM>, abvax!ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM!BENNING writes:
|> >From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
|> >Subject: Re: (old) Question For Rob Levene
|> >
|> > ->]Bruce Benning askes:
|> >   [1]
|> >>  Isn't HUMANISM a religion with "CHANCE" as the creator, and Creation
|> >>  itself plays god? 
       [2] In fact there are some who have suggested that the
|> >>  REFORM version of Judaism is a form of Humanism.
|> >
|> >It isn't.
|> 
|>   What isn't? Humanism isn't a religion? Or Reform isn't a version of
|>   humanism?

Statement [1] is incorrect.  The suggestion you say in [2]
that "some" have made is incorrect if "humanism" is defined as in [1].

The term "humanism" is claimed by many people with diverse
agendas.  I know of no significant group of people who
call themselves humanists who believe the caricature of
humanism you display in [1].  Your statement sounds more
like creationist straw-man arguments against evolution
than it does like a description of anybody's religion.

If "humanism" is the belief that our important 
duties on earth pertain to caring for fellow
humans, and harnessing the earth for the benefit
of future humans, then all branches of Judaism
are humanistic by this definition.  "Do justice,
and love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God"
is a humanistic commandment by this definition.

I don't think Reform and Orthodox differ in the
"humanism" dimension.  They differ in whether
they believe the Oral Torah is divine and
authoritative, and whether
to follow Halacha in applying Torah law to
modern practice.  When put side by side with
Christianity, Reform and Orthodox are nearly
identical by comparison.

Analogously, as seen from my perspective,
different sects of Christianity (among which
I include Messianic "Judaism") resemble
each other far more than any of them resembles
Judaism.  Whether you are a pre-mil post-trib
or a post-mil pre-trib or a dispensationalist
Pentacostal is just so much detail as far
as I am concerned.


|> >>  Are not idolatry and denial of God the same thing in the eyes of
|> >>  the Lord?
|> >
|> >No, they're different.
|> 
|>   Maybe to you or your belief system. Scripture equates them as equal.
|> 
|> >
|> >> Does Scripture not say, "Worship the Lord your God, and
|> >>  serve Him only."? [DEUT 6:13]
|> >
|> >Yes.  Therefore, an atheist is not fulfilling this.
|> >But neither is he violating the prohibitions against
|> >serving false gods.
|> 
|>  Question: If an atheist isn't serving GOD, who is s/he serving?
|>  If not other god's then it must be himself. After all it is the fool
|>  who says that there is no God. This action is rebellion and arrogance
|>  against God. Scripture says that "rebellion is like the sin of divination,
|>  and arrogance like the evil of idolatry." This was spoken to King Saul who
|>  was acting on his behalf and not the Lord's. A charge was laid upon
|>  Saul. "Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you
|>  as king."
|>  Since an atheist rejects the word of God, and in his/her arrogance believe
|>  there is no God, the charge is the same and the sin equal.

I don't wish to defend atheism here, but the above is not Jewishly correct.
First of all, although the atheist may not be fulfilling
the commandment to worship, he still may be serving God.
("Better that they forget Me, but remember My commandments".)
Mr. Benning's position sounds like the Christian position,
not the Jewish one.  (Of course both Jewish and Christian
positions reject atheism.  But Christians are more likely
to believe that one can't serve God at all without faith
in God, while Jews say one can.)

Second of all, although I recognize "it is the fool who says
there is no God" as Biblical, I don't recognize your next sentence
as such.  Please clarify/quote.  I don't think most atheists are
atheists out of "rebellion".  This sounds more like a Christian
position.

Third of all, idolators ascribe divine power to that which
is not divine.  Atheists typically ascribe divine power to nothing.
(Of course atheists, Jews, and Christians can *behave* in
idolatrous ways, but this has nothing to do with their
atheism, Judaism, or Christianity.)

Fourth, in your last sentence you slip in "the word of God".
Disbelief in "the word of God" is not the same as disbelief
in God.   Many liberal Jews disbelieve that the Torah
is the "word of God", even though they base their
practice on it.  Of course, this view is rejected by
the Orthodox, but Orthodox do not call these liberals
atheists (except when they are), and certainly not "idolators".

An otherwise righteous atheist is viewed in Judaism
much like an otherwise righteous individual who fails
to observe some other set of commandments:   as
non-observant, but not as an idolator.  Many very
deeply religious Jews became atheists after the
Holocaust; even many who remained observant!  Perhaps
the Christians believe that God will damn them for
this; I don't know any Jews who think so.



-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598