From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.cyber
Subject: META: Status of SR and un-moderation process
Date: 9 Sep 92 15:20:11 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
Content-Type: text
Archive-Name: rgc588
Apparently-To: rec-games-cyber@uunet.uu.net

Hmmm, the rest of rec.games.frp seems to be split into two camps re: SR.
1) SR is a 'dark future' game, so it belongs here, or
2) Joshua is too heavy-handed a moderator and has decided to limit the
   magic aspect of SR, thus it doesn't belong here.

Which is it?  I've killed a few SR posts recently, so evidently there is
no blanket ban on SR postings, but seeing as I've killed them, I can't
be sure if they were talking about magic or not.

[[ The truth is a little complicated.  I have said that Shadowrun is
   not cyberpunk and should not be here.  On the other hand I still
   do let SR postings which do not discuss magic go through.  In the
   future I may start rejecting those as well, but right now I figure
   I should error on the side of accepting more postings, rather than
   fewer.  I justify this (to myself) by saying that SR posts which
   are not about magic might be useful to people who play cyberpunk
   games. --Josua ]]

Second matter: either my site is even slower in getting this group, or
_someone_ is out of date.  In the same discussion, one or more posters 
have mentioned a discussion going on here to a) unmoderate the group,
b) move it into the r.g.f.* heirarchy.  I have seen very little discussion
of late on these matters.  The last exchange I recall was a few weeks back,
possibly before school began here (August 24 or so).

[[ I posted a request for a vote on these questions.  At that time
   there was no discussion, because we've been over these points before.
   Basically, you should send email to me (joshua@veritas.com) answering
   the three questions: Should rec.games.cyber exist in any form? 
   Should it be moved to the rec.games.frp hierarchy? and Should it
   be moderated?  For information, I'd also like you to say how many
   years you have read CyberRPG or rec.games.cyber, if you have
   ever posted and include your email address.
   So far only 20 people have sent in votes :-(
   --Joshua ]]

Lastly, so as not to violate the standing UseNet requirement on mandatory
opinions, here is how I feel of the proposals: 

Moderation _has_ driven people away.  I don't post in the current r.g.f
tree of newsgroups because it belong here, and I don't post here because
of the moderation, and lack of activity (which again I attribute to the
moderation.)  Joshua has become less heavy handed of late, but the whole
moderation aspect of the group is IMPO, unneccessary.  Most of the r.g.f
tree are unmmoderated (aside from announce and archives) and run well.
If (and that's an if) this group is grafted onto the tree, then the same
people will be reading/contributing, and hopefully the same s/n ratio is
maintained.

I post here when I read about meta, (or want to know about meta) not about
cyber-fiction.  I'll wait until the group is unmoderated for that.  

As for ShadowRun's 'appropriateness' to this group, I feel that it does
take place in a dark future world, so that is the only qualification needed.
As for the magic, if a reader does not like magic, or SR (as I don't) then
the article or thread can be killed with great conveinence for the news
reader folks.  I do want to hear from the mailing list folks, however.

There are various genres of cyberfiction, with space travel and without,
with the net/matrix and without, with psionics and without.  Why not with
magic and without?  I'm not going into the justification of magice, but
merely restating my original assertion that if it's a dark future, then 
it belongs here.

Finally, as for moving this group into the r.g.f. tree, I wish to recall
all the noise that was made about this group "*not* being in the r.g.f
heirarchy, so it's *not* a split" (emphasis mine) at the bloody and oft-
times heated created process.  Labor is not easy, just ask any mother.

More than one person replied to that line of reasoning with "yeah, right.
You'll wait for the memories to fade, then move it in.  You'll have a 
split, it's just going to be a two stage split."  I am against the moving
proposal in principle, as it would be merely living up to that line of
thought (which I myself held at the time.)

However, r.g.cyber _does_ belong in the frp tree if all we're going to 
talk about is cyber games.  It's already under the games heirarchy.

In all, the final conclusion on this sorry matter was that the split
was poorly run at the time, it has turned out to be an 'end run' 
strategy.  I will support the move grudingly if it does come to vote,
but wish to bring to everyone's mind that this strategy was ill-conceived
at the time it was implemented.
-- 
Steinbach's Guideline for Systems Programming
	Never test for an error condition you don't know how to
	handle.