HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: HOLDSWOR@RESA.AFRC.AC.UK
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: RE: SF-LOVERS Digest V17 #676
Date: 18 Dec 92 10:05:00 GMT

re mike rogers;
 Good Point.  Why, if you are very advanced, use humans as a colonising force?
why not send a few self-replicating robots to alter the planet to something
which suits humans perfectly, *then* send in your colonists?
 True, robots would probably kill off any intelligent life if they found it, 
or be destroyed themselves, but this would probably not concern a culture
intent on expanding. One problem, what if an alien culture is already doing 
this? (How soon before an unemployed military scientist tries this as an 
excuse to carry on making weapons...?

Dan Holdsworth
Biologist.
Rothamsted Experimental Station
Hertfordshire
U.K.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Why Heinlein's folk want babies
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 05:25:39 GMT

Keep in mind that Heinlein loves frontier worlds.  Now what sort of people
do you find on a frontier world?

When mounting a colony expedition-- particularly in the early days of 
starflight, when it would take the resources of an entire planet just
to land a hundred people and their farming implements on another
planet-- one does not bring along people who want to dedicate their
lives to contract law, itemized deductions, mergers & acquisitions, or
beaurocratic bungling.  Those people will be much happier if they stay at
home, and the rest of the colonists will be happier if those people stay
home, too.  No, the people you recruit for your colony expedition are those
who are determined to subsist and breed, again and again!  Many generations
later, when the new world is ready to start colonies of their own, guess
which segment of the population chooses THAT endevour?  By the time a third
(?) generation colony like Felicity is founded, it is being settled by the
horniest of the horny, the most fecund of the fecund, breeders par
excelance.

Think about it:  Anyone who is born a thousand years from now will have 
somehow evaded forty generations of birth control!

Sexist?  Perhaps.  Heterocentric?  Definately.  But this is the way of
biology, not social justice.


Paul Ciszek                      When we are planning for posterity, we
                                 ought to remember that virtue is not
pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu            hereditary.     --Thomas Paine
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Writers who get paid too little (used to be Co-authored books)
Date: 16 Dec 1992 20:34:35 GMT
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
NNTP-Posting-Host: asp.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <9212162008.AA06846@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> marotta@hannah.enet.DEC.COM ("Hurt not the Earth, neither the sea, nor the trees.   16-Dec-1992 1508", Revelations 7:3) writes:
>
>Oh, Please!  I doubt many readers would agree that there are many
>writers out there *capable* of producing a good book!

Yes - nor would I.

On the other hand, I do suspect that there are a lot of people
out there who would be good writers if they had the chance, but
are not willing to sacrifice their livelihoods for a pittance.

c
From: bp494@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dana Goldblatt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Friedman opinions??
Date: 19 Dec 1992 08:26:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


C.S.Friedman has written 3 books that I've read.
These are: In Conquest Born
           The Madness Season
       and Black Sun Rising

Several people have posted saying they liked these in reverse
order of their listing above.  I disagree.

I read In Conquest Born quite a while back, before
the other 2 books were published.  When I read it, I thought
it was absorbing but too weird for my taste.  Really I don't care
for such elisions of sex and confict in general
But I thought my boyfriend at the time would like it, so I 
recommended it to him.  He liked it a lot, & then a couple years
ago I wanted to read it again, & so did he.  So I started reading
it aloud to him, one chapter at a time.  

I have rarely read a book that so benefited from this sort of reading.
In fact, like many first novels, In Conquest Born is a sort of combo
of a lot of short stories occurring in sequence.  Each chapter has
a very interesting, full of irony, conflict, and interest, complete
story of its own.  And each chapter taken in itself is a very good
story.  I suggest you try and read it that way if you had trouble 
with it before... it is a very good book in its own way, though it
certainly does not go headlong into a novel

-dana
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com (K. Rogers)
Subject: Re: Ending of Tigana question *spoilers*
Keywords: tigana
Reply-To: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:52:53 GMT

kayser@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Susan E. Kayser NSSDC/STX (301)513-1673) writes:

>>I have a question about the very last paragraph of the book.  Sandre,
>>Baerd and Devin see a Riselka (sp?) at the same time.  I knew three
>>men meeting one at the same time had some significance but I forgot
>>what it was and couldn't find it again in the book.  It went something
>>like: "One will find his path, one will die,...".  Can anyone tell me
>>what three things happen?
>> 
>(from memory):
>     One man sees a riselka
>     His life forks there.
>     Two men see a riselka
>     One of them dies.
>     Three men see a riselka
>     One is blessed, one forks, one will die.
>     (For women, one is blessed, one sees her life clearly, one has a child.)
>
>So--which of the three (Sandre, Baerd, Devin) gets which part of the prophecy?

Sure left a big opening for a followup book, eh?  The only guess I'll
hazard is that Devin isn't the one who dies.

>Susan Kayser		NCF::KAYSER  or  kayser@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
-- 
Keith Rogers
krogers@javelin.sim.es.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: callahan@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan)
Subject: Re: Literary SF
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:39:25 GMT

maverick@fir.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Vance Maverick) writes:

>In article <1992Dec17.173633.21673@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, callahan@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
>|> It just seemed to me that in _Ada_,
>|> Nabokov had written something that only a few people in the world (himself
>|> among them) had enough language ability to understand and enjoy.

>This was not my impression.  I know of books that give me this
>feeling (much of Zukofsky's _A_), but this was more like the
>experience of unreadability given by _Tender Is The Night_; the
>sense that the author is inviting me to a game I don't
>want to play.  

Your comments and others made me go back and browse through _Ada_ briefly.
First of all, let me rephrase something I said.  I said I found it nearly
impossible to read, but what I meant was that after turning the last page, I 
did not feel that I had actually read it.  I went through it at a decent pace 
(except when trying to translate), but there seemed to be a great deal that I 
didn't pick up.  I don't say it was uninteresting.  I simply found it 
unsatisfying as a cohesive book-reading experience.  I took very little away 
from it except an impression that a certain friend I knew in college would 
probably enjoy it (though I never got around to asking him).

Now, when I said language ability, I didn't just mean knowledge of
other languages, but also a feeling for subtle nuance and etymology.  
Normally, I enjoy this sort of thing, but in this case there was too much 
there for me, packed too tightly.  

Also, when I read novels, I'm usually very interested in the characters.  I 
want to understand something new about human nature.  The characters in _Ada_ 
don't really have much at all to do with human nature.  They have complex 
personalities, which are described in detail, but they are just not human.

The novel definitely has the feel of an intellectual game, and yes, it is
one I did not wish to play at the time.

--
Paul Callahan
callahan@cs.jhu.edu
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Rama Reveiled by A.C. Clarke
Date: 16 Dec 92 23:25:59 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows)

In article <1992Dec11.213532.14667@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, cmeadows@nyx (Chris Meadows) writes:
>The first Rama book was BORING.  People land, people gawk at the
>scenery without really finding anything out, people kill monkeys, 
>people leave.  There's no conflict (except for that last part about
>the monkeys), it's just they look around and leave.  They don't
>even find much out about the aliens--just that they're THERE.

Exactly.  It's called "sense of wonder", something science fiction
likes to pride itself on, but missing far too often.  RWR is one of
the ultimates, lifting most readers to an astonished awe and joy.

Your loss.

I, for one, absolutely refuse to look at the sequels.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters)
Subject: Re: Literary SF
Keywords: Literary SF
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 02:45:37 GMT

In <1992Dec19.173903.22309@hellgate.utah.edu> speterse%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (soren--Ms. Jackson if you're nasty) writes:

>In article <1h02nrINNnlt@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:

>>Whatever happened to them Ace Specials, anyhow?  Did they just sort of
>>disappear, after Terry Carr passed away?  I can only think of three in the
>>"New" series: _The Wild Shore_, the unmentionable above, _Neuromancer_, and
>>_Green Eyes_; and I haven't seen a new one in a while.

>There were a few others.  Off the top of my head, there were Richard 
>Kadrey's *Metrophage*, which people I don't think are idiots like, but 
>which I thought was little more than cyberpunk-by-numbers,

Hmm, my impression of it was that it was a great parody of the whole
cyberpunk schtick.  :-)

I can certainly see how this could be interpreted as by-the-numbers, but
my impression was the *nobody* could *possibly* put that many cliches
into one book by accident!  :-)  And even if it was by accident, it's
still worth reading as an unintentional parody.  <grin>

> *In the
>Drift* by Michael Swanwick (a fix up novel, of which I've read one or
>two of the component parts--too long ago to have an opinion),

One of Swanwick's lesser novels, IMO.

 and *Them
>Bones* by Waldrop, which I also haven't read.

Highly recommended.

There's a few others in the New Ace Specials series (a couple of which
were decent, although I can't remember the names right now), but in
general, I don't think that the new Specials were anywhere near as good
as the original Ace Specials, mostly because the originals were not
limited to first novels.

As a side note, I believe that someone else (Damon Knight perhaps?) is
continuing the New Ace Specials series.  I think I just saw one of these
at the bookstore (though I won't swear to this).
-- 
Chris Waters    | the insane don't | "Imaginary guitar notes [...] exist only
xtifr@netcom.COM| need disclaimers |  in the imagination of the imaginer" --FZ
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: REBECCA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (Rebecca Drayer)
Subject: Re: Mass minds (was: Greg Bear Blood Music)
Organization: Yale University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 18:55:04 EST

In article <1992Dec12.175003.5414@galileo.physics.arizona.edu>
lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat) writes:
 
>Mass minds by telelpathy seem to come in two flavors.  First there is
>the form where, since this improves communication, it is a good thing.
>
>Second is where this is a living hell, as we would then get to "hear"
>all the little nasty impulses of everybody, learn exactly what they
>think of us, have no privacy, etc.  It seems to me that this would be
>closer to the truth.
 
It's been awhile since I've read it, but I think that Lester Del Rey's
Pstalemate deals with the second type of telepathy.  The main character was
slowly going insane because of his telepathic ability, before he finally
got it under control.
 
 
 
*************************************************************************
Rebecca A. Drayer, EMT-A        |   Rebecca@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu
(a.k.a Organic Lass of the LNH) |   Computing Assistant
                                |   Silliman College, Yale University
 
"You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much."
                                                    - Anonymous
*************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: viljanen@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lea Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Co-authored books
Organization: Pussy Galore's Flying Circus
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:41:12 GMT

In <168B7DB59.JLINTHI1@ua1vm.ua.edu> JLINTHI1@ua1vm.ua.edu writes:

>What about authors who actually write together on a book and
>not just one does the outline and the other does the rest?

I think Feist and Wurts have done a pretty good job between
themselves with the "X of the Empire" books. I have to admit, 
though, that I don't know how they work.

>Anybody else like Katherine Kurtz and Deborah Turner Harris'
>_Adept_ series? Granted, you can recognize which author
>created the major characters, but you can't say without a
>shadow of a doubt that only one actually wrote them.

I really liked the Deryni books by Kurtz, but "The Adept"
made my stomach turn. Cardboard characters (esp. the rich
and handsome hero), exotic milieu and mystic occurrences 
-- all the ingredients of a typical romantic-escapist junk
novel. I really hope it was all Harris' work...

>Julia

-- 
Lea 'LadyBug' Viljanen     University of Helsinki   "Every real program
Lea.Viljanen@Helsinki.FI   Computing Centre          has some input" - H&P
From: tarl@coyoacan.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: LENSMAN?
Date: 12 Dec 92 05:07:36 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: coyoacan.sw.stratus.com

In article <551@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
> I don't remember offhand the original source of "Zwilnik".

Name of one of the original Samms projects. As I recall, project Zwilnik was
drug smugglers, project Boskone was pirates, project Zabriska was research
into some wierd signals. The names themselves were suggested by Bergenholm,
as simple pronouncable symbols. See First Lensman.

The derivation from a law-enforcement project name to law-enforcement
personell using the name to refer to the individuals under scrutiny is
actually fairly likely.

(Of course, Gharlane is likely to mention that First Lensman was written
after Smith had already used the term Zwilnik, but I choose to ignore such
minor anachronologies).
	Tarl
-- 
         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: hartlemp@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Michael P Hartley)
Subject: Anyone like to comment on Garden of Rama?
Organization: Purdue University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 09:20:03 GMT

major spoilers for above...

   I finally got around to reading this new one...  The whole
thing seemed great, until I got to the end...  there wasn't one..

    The end resolved absolutely NOTHING!!  I mean, sure, series usually
leave some loose strings, etc..  but this one was like it was missing about
4 chapters at the end.

   Anyone agree? disagree?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       "I don't know what's in there, but it's big, and it's PISSED OFF!"  
---------------------------------------|---------------------------------------
   Michael P Hartley                 #           |  Physicist by Choice 
                      ****           |           |  Mathematician by Accident
   Purdue University (====()---------\---------| |  CS student by Mistake
                      ****           |           |  Brilliant by act of God
   hartlemp@mentor.cc.purdue.edu     -           |  Poor by act of Congress 

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Auto-buy lists
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:11:51 GMT
Keywords: tigana

In article <1992Dec18.015418.23388@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu (Colin Roald) writes:
> I'm suddenly curious--what authors are on other people's "auto-buy" lists?
> Meaning that if you see one of their books and you don't have yet and the 
> money is in your pocket, you buy it--no further questions asked.

I suspect most people could guess this list from my reviews, but here goes:

Jorge Luis Borges (not many new ones, but occasionally older stuff floats by)
Pat Cadigan
Karen Joy Fowler (new addition to my list)
Nancy Kress
James Morrow
Pat Murphy
Kim Stanley Robinson
Olaf Stapledon (not many new ones, but some out-of-print I'm looking for)
Connie Willis

This list, of course, changes with time (and I can't guarantee I didn't
forget someone).

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"God does not play dice with the universe."  --Albert Einstein
"Albert, stop telling God what to do."  --Niels Bohr
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Greg Bear Blood Music (Spoilers)
Date: 9 Dec 92 15:08:06 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

phatch@solstice.slc.mentorg.com (Phill Hatch) writes:
> So who likes mass mind universes and why?

Other "mass-minds" -- Joe Haldeman's THE FOREVER WAR.  And the
original, STAR MAKER by Olaf Stapledon.  Ever get the feeling that
Stapledon did all the biggest themes of sf first?

I don't think Bear is particularly pro-massing.  His sympathies seem to
be with those left behind to cope with what's left.

	Larry "Just an IMHO" Hammer
--

                         \   The work is rather too light, and bright,
LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \  and sparkling; it wants ... a long chapter
sometimes a Wombat         \ of solemn specious nonsense. -- Jane Austen
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pisherwo@wm.estec.esa.nl (Phil Isherwood)
Subject: Re: Anyone like to comment on Garden of Rama?
Reply-To: pisherwo@wm.estec.esa.nl
Organization: ESA/Estec/WMS, Noordwijk, The Netherlands
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:46:36 GMT

Ahem. I would like to come to Arthur and Gentry's aid here. I DID like
Garden of Rama. I enjoyed it as a novel in it's own right, showing how
man could pervert and ultimately destroy a new Eden. It was a morality
tale that just happened to be set in Rama. It could have been set 
anywhere.

I think that much of the criticism that this book has come in for, is
due to the fact that it continues the Rama tale, rather than being a
stand alone novel. Garden of Rama and Rama II are very different to the
original (and phenomenal) Rama novel. But please remember, different is
not always worse.

That's my opinion. I liked it and I look forward to 'Rama Revealed' in
course. (NOTE: Revealed, NOT Reveiled.)

Regards,
Phil Isherwood
pisherwo@wm.estec.esa.nl




Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mike@maths.tcd.ie (Mike Rogers)
Subject: Re: How to beat AGRIPPA (was Re: Gibson, electronic books)
Organization: none
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:44:46 GMT

In article <Bz9I1F.GIM@acsu.buffalo.edu>, cri@acsu.buffalo.edu (Mr. PlEaSanT) wrote:
>	What a coincedence, your friend is William Gibson.
>Gibson suggested doing this himself in a number of interviews.  He also stated
>(this is second hand info so don't quote me) that he hopes someone hacks it
>and sends it net-ward.  so go ahead and enjoy.

Exactly. This seems to me to be so obvious. "the street finds its own uses for
things" was one of the cyberpunks' favourite phrases. remember, Neuromancer
never came out in hardback, it was an tacky Ace paperback, yet it scooped all
the major awards. I think that there's something kind of humorous and ironic
about the entire Agrippa thing.
-- 
Mike Rogers,Box 6,Regent Hse,##EveryoneHasTheRightToFreedomOfOpinionAndExpressio
TCD,EIRE. <mike@maths.tcd.ie>##nThisRightIncludesFreedomToHoldOpinionsWithoutInt
###############################erferenceAndToSeekReceiveAndImpartInformationAndI
deasThroughAnyMediaAndRegardlessOfFrontiers...#10 UN Declaration of Human Rights
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Friday, 11 Dec 1992 18:19:30 EST
From: TERRY D. BARKLEY <32BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Most Influential and "the Best" Fantasy
 <1g2e5tINNcsf@transfer.stratus.com> <92343.21120532BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
 <1992Dec9.143120.11752@math.ucla.edu>
 <92345.20334732BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

     In the last few days I have been inundated with submissions, and now face
the heavy task of sorting them and then going to the library and reading the
books I haven't read before.  The majority of submissions were intelligent and
to the point, for that I am thankful.  Thanks to everyone who contributed.  I
have more suggestions, however, then I'll possibly use in the thesis, so no
more submissions, please.  Thanks again.

Terry D. Barkley                     "Twenty men crossing a bridge,
<32BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>         Into a village,
                                      Are twenty men crossing twenty bridges,
                                      Into twenty villages...."
                                                  Wallace Stevens
From: swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Most Influential and "the Best" Fantasy
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:40:11 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

|> Bret Jolly (troly@redwood.math.ucla.edu) wrote:
|> > In article <92343.21120532BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> 32BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (TERRY D. BARKLEY) writes:
|> 
|> > * I'll admit that I haven't read a direct translation of "1001", just
|> > * remember the stories from childhood.  I used it as an example mainly
|> > * because of the movie; it was on the top of my head, so to speak.
|> 
|> >    A lit major, writing a thesis on fantasy, knows the 1001 nights
|> > only from a movie and from a bowdlerized and disneyfied children's
|> > version.  I'm boggled. 

I'll say, if he had ever read even a poor translation of the originals, he
would have gotten a very different impression.

Let's see, the first "chapter" contains an orgy scene, a mass execution ...

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
From: john@sekrit.WPI.EDU (John Stoffel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Auto-buy lists
Date: 18 Dec 92 11:23:30
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
	<1992Dec18.015418.23388@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sekrit.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu's message of 18 Dec 92 01:54:18 GMT

>>>>> On 18 Dec 92 01:54:18 GMT, colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu (Colin Roald) said:

Colin> I'm suddenly curious--what authors are on other people's
Colin> "auto-buy" lists?

In no real order at all...

Christopher Rowley (The VANG take manhatten?  :-)
L. Neil Smith
Tom Deitz
L. E. Modest
Bill Baldwin (just to keep the series going)
Alan Cole, Chris Brunch (sten series)
Alan Dean Foster
Charles Sheffield
Roger MacBride Allen
George R. R. Martin (except Wildcards.  Want stuff from HIM)
Steve Perry
Niven
Pournelle (real stuff by him, not universe with other writers)
...


--
Youth of today!  Join me in a mass rally for traditional mental attitudes!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
john@wpi.wpi.edu | Work Station Specialist | Worcester Polytechnic Institute
John Stoffel     | 508-831-5512 (work)     | Worcester, MA  01609