From: nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle)
Subject: Re: A Stolen Life, A Dying Soul
Organization: Psych Department, Indiana University
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:01:27 GMT

kebarnes@memstvx1.memst.edu writes:
>nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle) 
>> sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth) writes:
>>]I read this and was sickened by it.  All I've got to say is that's what
>>]the death penalty is for.  I honestly hope those three killers get the
>>]gas chamber, no appeals.

>>     I read the original post, but my reaction was merely to be saddened. 
>> Perhaps my study of history has inured me to violence, but it's difficult 
>> for me to get too overwrought about individual cases like this one.

>Reminds me of a quote (don't infer insult from this):

    Not at all. As a matter of fact I would say that my muted reactions 
to violence are perhaps part of a larger problem in that many, many people 
feel much the same as I do. It's really tough to listen to reports of 
brutal teenage killers without it getting a little old after a while. We 
have two other teenage killer cases going on in the news here in Indiana, 
one in which a girl was killed by a group of other girls, and one in which 
a teenage boy confessed to a murder that occurred down in Florida. I'm sure 
that Simon is correct that I should be outraged, but in the context of all 
the other stuff going on I just can't work up the energy to be equally 
outraged by every single case.

>"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths
>is a statistic."--Joseph Stalin

>"Uncle Joe" [The Great Satan] knew whereof he spoke.

    He certainly did. 

>>]Call me crude, but something must be done.
>> 
>>     I think that your gut reaction may lead you to wish for something less 
>> than purely poetic justice. IMHO the most appropriate thing that could be 
>> done would be to throw those three guys and a case of A1 sauce into a cell 
>> with Jeffery Dahmer. (There you go, Simon, you weren't nearly as crude 
>> as me)

>What are we to make of the case of Wesley Allan Dodd, convicted serial
>child rapist-murderer in Washington state who says he wishes to
>be executed by hanging, since that is what he did to the 4-year-old
>boy who was his last victim?

    I guess we'd better call in "Dr Dripper"; sounds like a prime candidate 
for Dr-assisted suicide if every I saw one.

>I find it discouraging that the ACLU wishes to contest this proposal,
>and that the only way it seems for someone such as Dodd to be put
>out of his own misery and everyone else's is for him to request that
>the execution be carried out, ala: Gary Gilmore's request for a
>Utah firing squad.

    The ACLU seems to base its fights on principles which are not always 
based in practicalities, but I can think of too many examples of other 
groups that seem to have that same problem to want to get too deeply into 
that topic.

>It also seems curious that liberals who would no doubt fight for
>Jack Kervorkian's right to kill, would have any qualms about seeing
>this man die, who has violated the civil liberties of the innocent
>in the most extreme way. 

    Yes, some liberals certainly feel that way. I agree that their position 
is internally inconsistant, but once again I'm not prepared to get too 
deep into that one for fear of opening other cans of worms.

>Though I may not agree with Rush's strict
>"pro-life" position on abortion, he has a point about the effect
>of the cheapening of human life which is brought about by rampant
>abortion, and even euthanasia, in a society where the unjust taking
>of life goes unpunished in many cases.

    Honestly I don't think that abortion (which definitely cheapens fetal 
life) is the primary contributor to this modern craze for grotesque murders. 
For that I would say that we have Hollywood, the film industry, and our old 
buddies Stallone and Schwartzeneger(sp?) to thank. When was the last time 
you saw graphic visual images of dozens of people getting buttered across 
the landscape?

>Does execution deter?

    It certainly cuts down on those repeat-offender statistics.

>If we were to execute any criminal who murdered while committing
>another felony, we could have our answer. If there were fewer
>murders associated with the commission of felonies, the effect
>of such a law could readily be demonstrated. The necessity
>of convicting the accused twice, first of the felony, and then the
>capital murder charge, should add an extra measure of protection
>against executing the innocent. It would be a good experiment to
>try, and might ease jail overcrowding :-}.

>How we should deal with the juveniles in this particular case
>[Bob Greene's column] is a far more difficult question.

>Might we simply delay executing them until they are adults,
>mercifully granting them at least a fraction of their lives?
>Or, can such children be "rehabilitated"? Are child criminals
>any more capable of "rehabilitation" than adults?

>Accepting for the sake of argument that these children became
>"soulless" thanks to their parents, or their environment, what
>can be done to help other children who are similarly endangered?

>For the sake of the victims now, and in the future, our national
>"soul" must be found, and healed. And fast. 

    Perhaps so. To get back to my dispassionate analytical mode, I would 
note that violent, "soulless" cultures have a tendency to be fairly 
successful empire builders. As long as the inherent tendency towards 
violence doesn't impair population growth our prospects for continuing 
as a nation are fairly good. If you would like to make the argument that 
the current level of violence is excessive then I would agree, but at 
least from a historical perspective I would say that the level of violence 
we're seeing doesn't necessarily pose an immediate threat to our survival 
as a nation. It would certainly be much more pleasant to have nice neighbors 
whose kids we're pretty sure aren't going to murder us, but at this point 
I think that the murder rate is still less than the birth rate.

--
Nathan Engle                        Software Juggler
Psychology Department               Indiana University
nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu      nengle@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
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