From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:53:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.111555.29514@cco.caltech.edu> simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.ed
u (Petar Simic) writes:
>       Josip Loncaric writes:
> >>>
>  All of these sources lead to the following conclusion: Serb losses in WWII
> (from all causes) account for about 500,000 of the total which is about one
> million...
>
> The conclusions of all of the above sources can be checked, unlike the
> unsubstantiated estimates quoted by Mr. Simic.
><<<
>
>       The estimate I was quoting is conclusion of most of the books writen
> about the Holocaust in Croatia, and I claimed that this is the estimate most
> of the main-stream historians accept. This can be checked. I gave the
> reference to one French, three German, and four Yugoslav authors, and I
> could list tens of other studies which support the same conclusion. I will
> explain later (see bellow) what is the problem with Kocovic's estimate, but
> it should be pointed out that, reading the direct testimony of German and
> Italian officers in Croatia, one gets the feeling that the barbarisam and
> cruelty of Croats was such that plus or minus 250,000 victims does not make
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> any difference.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is not under dispute.  What is under dispute is the call to war
sounded by Milosevi'c media, by his favorite Serbian extremist Seselj,
and many otherwise normal people in Serbia.  Furthermore, what is
being challenged is the nature of the Croatian people: Belgrade propaganda
would have you believe that they are all Ustashe, when in fact Croats
had rejected Ustashe in WWII as well as now.  The charge is doubly offensive
to me and to Croats in general: (1) because it is a criminally constructed
slander and (2) because it is being USED today to destroy our people
and our culture.

My point is that manipulation of history is rampant in Belgrade.  The
number of WWII victims is a good example: you keep on quoting the highest
available ESTIMATES, while there are detailed studies available which
had actually COUNTED and which reach a different conclusion.  The issue
is not the actual number: the issue is MANIPULATION OF HISTORY by
Belgrade with the intent of destroying the Croatian people.  I think
this much is clear from my postings.

> [ relevant description of Ustashe atrocities quoted ]
>
>       Josip writes:
>>>>
> How do you reconcile your claims with the results of demographic studies,
> victim lists, and official government survey?...
>
> ... you have not explained why researchers who did the counting are
> less correct than your sources who quote estimates by various
> supposedly qualified individuals.
>
> This reckless touting of the data promoted by Mr. Vojislav Seselj,...
>
><<<
>
> *     Most researchers studying the Holocaust in Balkans came with the
> estimates which are in the range of 750,000 - 1,000,000 for the total
> Serbian loss in the WWII. They had plenty of data available. A possible
> reason for discrepancy between this and the lower estimate (500,000)
> by one Serbian historian (Kocovic) is in that counting and statistical
> interpretation of a Yugoslav demographic data is not straightforward, but
> depends on number of assumptions, any of which if not true can change
> the estimate dramatically. Illustrate one of the sources of uncerainty in
> demographic data are groups (such as Muslims, and "Yugoslavs") who had
> different options for declaring their ethnic origin before the war, when
> only orthodox Serbs were counted as Serbs, and imediatelly after the war,
> when large number of Muslims in Bosnia and Hercegovina declared themeseves
> as Serbs. This can be illustrated by looking at the census for 1961 and 1971,
> where the absolute number of Serbs in Bosnia and Hercegovina in fact
> declined while number of people who declared themeself as Muslims, jumped by
> enormous, 640,000. This is why most of the estimates of other Yugoslav
> authors - dr. Dedier, dr. Bulatovic, dr. Kostic, dr. Djuretic, all of whom
> had the available demographic data, victim lists, and "official government
> surveys"  - as well as foreign schoolars, can not be dismissed on the grounds
> of inconsistency with the basic demographic data.

No matter how people declare themselves, there is still the same number of
them in the country.  Kocovic states that the WWII loss of life was about
1,000,000 and that Serbian losses account for about 50% of this total.
Other, independent studies, based on other independent sources of data,
have reached the same conclusion (with minor differences +- 10% or so).

This simply CANNOT be explained away by your argument.  There are only a
few sources of authoritative data (Yugoslav government census and
survey of WWII victims).  These studies, based on actual counting of
the living and the dead, simply do not support earlier estimates based
on guessing and political motives.

>       My point related to this whole discussion is, however, that we can
> establish here only what is the dominant, that is, the main-stream historical
> fact, and if you or your fellow Croats have some original ideas about revising
> part of the Holocaust history, this net is not the appropriate nor qualified
> forum to attempt this. And what is the dominant, the leading order history of
> the Holocaust in independent state of Croatia, is known and well documented,
> and will not be changed just by writing long postings and mixing half-truths
> about history with half-truths about the present (which is different, but
> to some extent related question).

History is not under dispute:  your use of the highest available estimates,
rather than the data collected by the Yugoslav government itself during
census and during survey of WWII victims, is being challenged.

> *     I am bit puzzled why you keep bringing in dr.V. Seselj, as if he has
> anything to do with the books I gave as a reference; I do not like a guy,
> and I do not know what is he touting about, and I suspect that his estimates
> might be still higher (if I remember correctly his argument some time ago was
> that the territories on which Serbs were majority before the WWII genocide,
> should not be allowed to separate from Yugoslavia).

I do not like the guy either, but he appeared on the ABC news last fall
claiming that Croats had killed "a million Serbs," a blatantly false claim
intended to incite Serbs to war and intended to depict the Croatian people
as monsters who do not deserve any help against this present slaughter!!!

And the world stood by, pretty much ignoring the carnage, believing that
the Serbs only want a little revenge!!!  Now, the broad nature of Milosevic's
expansionist dreams is clearly evident, and the carnage continues, under
different excuses -- but tens of thousands of people have died ...

Remember the ten commandments: "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
This is precisely what the people who spread hate against the Croats have done,
with devastating consequences for all.

> *	My opinion, for what is it worth, is that Croats should, as a sign of
> good faight accept the fact of the Holocaust as they are presented in the
> most of the books on the Holocaust, even if this means that they would accept
> that their fascists killed 250,000 more Serbs then they are willing to
> believe, and they should as soon as possible approach the Serbs in Croatia,
> fall on their knees, and ask them for forgivness; and give serious and
> constitutionally garanteed assurance that Serbs will never again be treated
> as the foreign elements in this part of Balkans. I do not know how this
> might work, and if it is not too late now, but chanting about "Serbian
> communists", "Serbian domination", "outside agresson" will not help much,
> because it is not the way how Serbs in former Yugoslavia see the conflict;
> which means that there is no communication.

As a sign of not just good faith but deeply held humanitarian values,
I submit to you that I, and most Croats, are deeply distressed over the
loss of innocent lives caused by the Ustashe.  But our voices have been
ignored by Serbian propaganda:  those Croats who had fought against
such evils are being depicted as its sources.  This is preposterous!!!

This kind of character assasination is disgusting.  The principle of
collective guilt, which you insist upon, cannot possibly apply to those
people who had fought against evil and whose descendants are being
shelled in their homes ad infinitum simply because they are not Serbs.

Milosevic has used other lies as well: Croatian Constitution guarantees
equality to all of her citizens; but the claim was made that it does not.
Croats were all along extending a hand to their Serbian minority,
guaranteeing full equality and cultural autonomy, even after some had
(with Milosevic's support) staged a rebellion in August of 1990.
All of this could have been solved by negotiations, but Milosevic
wanted war -- and "all Serbs in one state", no matter how many non-Serbs
have to be killed or "cleansed".

The Constitutional guarantees you ask for HAVE been given by the Croats,
in their 1990 Constitution as well as in the additional laws, and the
result was deemed to surpass the European standards.  But this had never
been THE problem; only the Serbian war against (initially) defenseless
civilian population of Croatia has made it a problem.

Maybe you and the people who carried out this carnage for no good
reason except territorial expansion should "approach the Croatians,
fall on their knees, and ask them for forgivness" because what Serb forces
have done in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina is a crime against humanity.

But I doubt this will happen.  There are crimes which members of the 
Serbian nation had carried out in WWII: I have never heard an apology.
Instead, we'll just have to wait a generation or two for the
forgiveness will come.  

>
>	Petar.
>
>	--------------------------------------------------------------------
>PS	I will be away for a while and probably will not be able to continue
> 	this discussion.

Josip

P.S.  I'm sick of this argument too.