From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:46:59 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Sep14.164635.712@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
=>In article <25800@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
=>>In article <1992Sep11.181952.24956@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
=>>=>In article <25734@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
=>>=>>In article <1992Sep10.162657.5262@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
=>>=>>=>In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
=>[Adam]
=>>=>>=>Yes, they do.  The law of return allows people who may or may not be
=>>=>>=>Jews to "return" to Israel in order to prevent them from being
=>>=>>=>persecuted for their "Jewishness."
=>
=>[Jeremy]
=>>=>>So, in this sense, Israel is not a "physical" homeland but a place of
=>>=>>refuge, right?
=>
=>[Adam]
=>>=>However, that should not be taken to imply that that is its only
=>>=>purpose, or that that is the only reason for Israel to exist.
=>
=>[Jeremy]
=>>So, to go a little further, Israel must be seen as a "homeland" for the
=>>Jews (an elective affiliation) rather than as an ancestral homeland for
=>>a people evicted by the Romans, right?
=>
=>[Adam]
=>Nope.  It can be seen as a homeland for the Jews, a people evicted
=>by the Romans, who have longed to return for 2,000 years.

If one can become Jewish by conversion, then it cannot be the case that
the Jews are 100% a people evicted byt the Romans.

=>[Adam]
=>The
=>argument that Jews are converts is nonsense.  The number of converts
=>in Christian Europe (from 400 to say 1700) to Judaism was probably
=>close to zero.  Ditto for Islamic converts to Judaism in Arabia
=>(800-1900).  The number of converts to Judaism during the
=>enlightenment was probably also very low.  So when did this mass of
=>people convert, so that you can claim most Jews are affiliated by
=>choice, rather than by ancestry?

You are setting up a straw man here. Nowhere have I claimed that a mass
conversion had taken place. Presumably you do not deny that *some*
conversion had taken place. My query related to those converts, whatever
their number. Not all Jews are descendants of a people evicted by the 
Romans. I was using an exception to prove a rule (sensu stricto).

=>[Jeremy]
=>>And to continue, supposing that the answer to the above question is in the
=>>affirmative, can you suggest a basis on which we might decide which such
=>>elective affiliations are worthy of this kind of treatment? 
=>
=>[Adam]
=>I did not answer in the affirmative, but if I had, I would answer that
=>as converts to Judaism were killed by Germans just as quickly as Jews
=>whose ancestors were Jews, a homeland for Jews should be a homeland
=>for those who are going to be killed for their Judaism.

But then you would still have to supply a rationale for the victims of
Nazism being accommodated in a Middle Esatern country. Should Israel also
be a homeland for gypsies, homosexuals, the insane, Communists, and other
groups persecuted by the Nazis?

=>[Adam]
=>Or should those people who have elected to become Jews be allowed to
=>die if no country on Earth will allow them to enter, as happened in
=>WW2?

Indeed a disgraceful state of affairs, but not really a reason for the 
Palestinians to pay for the choice of some people to elect to become Jews.



-- 
=======Jeremy Henderson========egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk===============
Q: How many user support people does it take to change a light bulb?
A: We have an exact copy of the light bulb here and it seems to be
   working fine.  Can you tell me what kind of system you have?  
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast