From: sco@aero.org (Stacey C. O'Brien)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Accusations of Blasphemy
Date: 21 Dec 1992 22:39:46 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: antares.aero.org

Hey folks, I just got this letter from "Mark" who claims he
is not participating in the group anymore (apparently off sulking in a
corner and only coming out to stab his brothers and sisters with false
accusations in private. If you're not participating, why are you reading
this?)

Anyways, I'm a pretty busy person and am not up to going out to my car,
digging out my Bible, and giving the guy his references. How anyone who
claims to have "studied" the Bible can miss the whole thing about the
Law being written on our hearts is beyond me. Not only that, he thinks
the kingdom of heaven is the Millenial kingdom. Sigh. Read the New Testament
for numerous references to the kingdom of heaven. Ie. John the Baptist, 
"Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand".

Anyways, there's a lot of blathering on about "false teachings" and
"defending the Word" against "blasphemy" and the evils of "tolerance" -
But, interestingly, no real specification as to what that blasphemy is, per se.
Anyways, I'm including his note to me.

I've been a Christian for awhile, and maybe his letter isn't going to
shake up my world, but if he's accusing you  with false accusations
a lot, hey, speak up! SATAN is the accuser of the brethren (read the New 
Testament), not God. This guy is spewing all kinds of hatred and false
accusation. I'll give him his references if no one else can do it right
now, but again, am a little shocked that he's managed to read the entire
Bible and "study" it without EVER managing to come across any references
to the kingdom of heaven, to the Law on our hearts, to the Spirit being our
teacher...etc. sigh.

Here's his email to me. Please post the references or I will tomorrow. sigh.

AH but KEEP IN MIND that he is NOT participating and that he does NOT want
to be our friend. (we are beneath him apparently)


---------------- Begin Included Message -------------------------------------

m markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com Mon Dec 21 10:10:09 1992
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 13:07:03 EST
From: markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com (Mark Christensen)
Message-Id: <9212211807.AA01934@eomer.hw.stratus.com.schematic>
To: sco@aero.org
Subject: Re: Returning to secular music
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Cc: 
Status: R

>Wait a sec here! Wait just one minute here! All Greg did was quote the
>Bible.

Untrue Stacey!  Greg did NOT quote the Bible.  I don't know where you got
this but you need to reread Greg's original posting. 

-----------
My comment: I read Greg's posting and he did quote the Bible, albeit in
paraphrase. I suppose it doesn't count unless it's in King James English?
"If King James English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for
me! ;-)  "
----------
 
>email reply Mark obviously hasn't read his all that thoroughly yet (new
>Christian perhaps?).

Not a new Christian...and you are obviously incorrect.  I have read through
the Bible AND studied much of it (there is a difference).

> This is no reason for either to leave the group!


When a group or person embraces or is a conduit for blasphemy, I will have
 
-------
What blasphemy?.....huh?.....c'mon, show me, I'm waiting......
My comment: AMEN BROTHER AND HALLELUIAH!!! SPURN AND STONE THE GUY! oops,
except for one small detail, he didn't commit blasphemy, and there you
go again accusing him of blasphemy without any proof or documentation,
not even one little iota of Biblical reference to prove that he committed
"blasphemy", you're just calling names yet again. Innocent until proven
guilty. Prove that he committed blasphemy and then we can talk. Until then
in my mind you are nothing more than a foaming at the mouth accuser of the
brethren. And I'm not going to sit by and let you devour an innocent man
with your hatred.
-------------

nothing to do with it.  This is called separation and is a Biblical
principle for which there are supporting scriptures.

---------------
My coment:Well, you wouldn't have had anything to do with Jesus if you won't even
TALk to people who aren`t 100% in agreement with you. Jesus went and
socialized (gasp!) with tax collecters, whores, and scum of all types.
How do you think people witness if they run screaming away from anyone who
is different in philosophy or religion? What a cop out. 
-----------------`

>Screaming "blasphemy" at someone for having read scripture and quoted it
>on the net is so far afield that I think it's obvious to everyone that
>one ought to seriously consider each others points of view without resorting
>to name calling.

I like your adjective "screaming".  I didn't realize one could scream via
email, or were you just inferring that?  Secondly, I stand firm in 
defending the word of God and I do NOT give credence to anyones
opinions or views if they are contrary to that word of God.  Blasphemy is
NOT to be tolerated.

> Name calling is just a method of detracting from the
>point being presented, and people tend to do it as a last resort when they
>are confronted with something they don't like,

I do not "name call" because I do not like something.  One must label sin
sin, and not try to rationlize it.

> but that they don't have
>the intellectual or educational tools to approach with some degree of
>reasonable discourse.

Jumping to lots of conclusions are we?  I'm so glad you have decided
my intellectual capability.  You sound as if you have the world's
wisdom, but not spiritual wisdom.  I could be wrong, of course, but
your reply certainly seems to indicate that you may be guilty of what
you are trying to accuse me of.  Heard any stories about motes and beams
lately?
>`
>That said, the Bible clearly states, and not just the Paulian writings,
>that the Spirit will continue to lead us into revelation and truth, that
>the law is written upon our hearts. It is somewhat ludicrous to assume that
>somehow Jesus has changed, when the Bible says that Jesus is the same yesterday,
>today, and forever.

God is indeed the same and NEVER changes.  He has, however, dealt 
differently with His chosen people throughout history.  Yes, God the
Holy Spirit does still have a ministry to every true believer.  I believe,
however, that God no longer supernaturally reveals Himself now that
He has completed His revelation via His word, the Bible.  This, of course,
is one difference between charismatic believers and non-charismatic
believers and is not applicable to this discussion.

> God has spoken to man through revelation since the
>beginning of creation, and much more so under the power and authority of the
>Holy Spirit. Jesus said that once he was gone He would send the Spirit who
>would teach us all things. "No longer will you need man to teach you, but
>the Spirit will teach you all things".

Agreed.

> This is why it's my personal opinion that
>this whole extreme dependence on clergy to hand down scripture to us is
>out of balance

If this is directed to me, you have definately misread me.  The word
of God stands alone is my sole authority.  All teachings MUST be
compared to what the word of God says.

> (Man in the place of God..). Anyways, both the old and new
>testaments say that the Messiah will write the law on our hearts.

I'm sorry, but I hear this "write the law on our hearts" phrase and
would like to know where in scripture it is found.  I'm sure it must
be there if you use it so prevalently.  Please let me know so I can 
look it up and study the surrounding context.  

> The old
>testament prophecies of the Messiah say that when he establishes his kingdom
>(which he has done at this point)

Which kingdom is this?  Surely not the millenial kingdom when Christ
returns to rule.  That is still future.

> that the Law will be written on our hearts.
>Done deal. He said when the Spirit came that this would be accomplished -
>once He was taken up into heaven. Also, of course, Paul clearly states that
>the Law is now written upon our hearts.

Where pray tell.

> And the entire new testament speaks
>of the Revelation of the Holy spirit in both big and small events in the
>lives of Christians. Nowhere in the Bible is there a prediction or statement
>that the revelation of the Holy Spirit would suddenly stop and we'd be left
>alone on this earth.
>
>Furthermore, none of us could even BECOME Christians without personal revelation
>of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts.
>
>Ok. so instead of mindlessly screeching "heretic!" at any person that
>quotes a scripture that we haven't gotten around to reading yet,

Which I didn't.  Please read the ENTIRE message.  

> how about
>just asking the person "gee, why do you think that?" Novel idea, eh?

And you, of course, know that I haven't replied to Greg on an e-mail
basis.  Well, you would be wrong once again.
>
>AND just because someone calls you heretic is no reason to be discouraged!
>Hey, there are worse things to be called. Jesus was called heretic again
>and again by the religious establishment.

There is a difference in being a heretic to the truth or to a lie.
>
>To all of us let me remind us (myself included) NOT to be so overloy
>oops - overly dependent on pastor

Again, I restate the sole authority of the Bible.

> so and so to hand down scripture
>to us, all filtered through his agenda and biases, that we fail to
>read scripture clearly. I knew a pastor who was a deeply angry man because
>of childhood issues he had never dealt with. He read every single scripture
>with an angry tone and made every scripture seem like a threat! People who
>followed him instead of Christ also interpreted scripture in anger. Here
>were all these people running around screaming scripture at each other
>acting out this pastors anger at his mother because the pastor was the
>big cheese and everyone else reacted to him and his issues rather than
>relying on the Holy Spirit and making the effort to read clearlyh and
>ask God for revelation.
>
>Anyways, may we all read our Bibles rather than just scream about them.
>
Well Stacey, I reply personnally instead of via the group since I will
have no part of the group.  I hate to see your comments go unanswered
before an entire readership, but I am afraid I must.  You have obviously
decided to write me off as  unintellectual, easily misguided by men,
unread concerning the Bible, defensive when I don't understand something, and
intolerant (read your message and ALL these attribute come out).  I will
not attempt to change your opinion.  I will continue to speak out when I

---------
My comment: no you will just accuse me of being heretic scum ;-) but not
try to change my opinion. NOOOOoooooo
---------

hear teachings contrary to the bible, as in this case.  There seems to be

----------
my comment > He still fails to mention what exactly is contrary to the
bible and why? He continues to spew accusations of "blasphemy" against
me without documenting said blasphemy. I think he's just an angry guy looking
for someone to vent his hostility on... 
----------

an attitude among a growing number of "christians" that one must be
tolerant of someone else's teachings, even if they are not correct.  This is

-----------
MY COMMENT:Fails to mention exactly what it is that is not correct. I'm still
completely mystified as to what the heck he's talking about here. 
-----------

absolutely false and very dangerous.  Jesus Christ himself warned of an
increasing number false teachings in the last days and that many with
"itching ears" will follw these heresies.

----------
My comment: And what heresies might you be referring to? Again, 
please document said heresies....
---------

  Beware lest you, in an attempt
to be tolerant, don't start to believe these false teachings.  I stand by
the word of God and the word of God alone.

-------
my comment: vague references to the Word of God, still no spelling out of`
these alleged "heresies". A lot of frothing but no substance so far..
----------

  I measure everything by that, even
the messages from my pastor.  

mc


-------------------- End Included Message ---------------------------------

Sigh. 

I really hope Greg will be ok after being falsely accused. 

                 --Stacey

Sh'mah yisrael adonai elohaynu adonai echad
Baruch shem k'vod malhutoh leolam va'ed
(that's not king james.)

My opinion alone, not that of any company anywhere or anything like that.


Newsgroups: rec.music.christian