From: mirza@vxcrna.cern.ch (MIRZA,I./EP)
Subject: Re: Islam Preaching Equality
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:54:00 GMT

In article <1gqg4qINNmf9@bailey.cs.yale.edu>, ahmed%bailey@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes...
>..deleted
>-- Shakil

    Well let me do it all over again.
    But first few words why? 
    Unlike you I have not spent my life in europe. I have spent
    large part of my life in a country called PAKISTAN and
    I still hold something we call a GREEN PASSPORT. It matters to me
    lot whatever happens in my country especialy discriminations
    caused either due to culture/languages or on the name of Islam.
    This is one reason that I restrict my postings to .pakistan.
    Although I dont think I have any problems arguing with others,
    but hope that others can also worry about their own problems rather
    indulging themselves into other countries affairs. To first order
    I do not care what Islam/Muslim do in Bangladesh or Saudi-Arabia.

    Now let us come back to "my handwaving"

    1. You still own me a number that is
       take any "COMPLEX" example of heritage and calculate
       "Share of brother/Share of a sister"
       and let us see what it is?
       This is the only relation where you can see if the 
       male and female have been treated equally, as you cannot
       compare share of a mother to her son, or share of a daughter
       to her uncle, since the relations themself are unequal.
       When will you be kind enough to grant me this information?

    2. I had restricted myself to above only because I thought that 
       we should not just go arround in circles without conclusions.
       But to avoid "handwaving" here I will also consider the other 
       aspects as you have suggested too.

    3. Let me quote from your postings.
       "
        The critic of Islam will argue further than Islam permits beating
        women.  He will quote from sura Al Nisa:

        As to those women
        On whose part ye fear
        Disloyalty and ill-conduct,
        Admonish them (first),
        (Next), refuse to share their beds,
        (And last) beat them (lightly);
        But if they return to obedience,
        Seek not against them
        Means (of annoyance):
        For Allah is Most High,
        Great (above you all)"
        "

        One has to be absolutely biased to ignore the clear discrimination
        here against women.

        a) Has Quran given the same advise to women, refuse to share bed
           with their men?
        b) Has Quran allowed WOMEN to BEAT their MEN (offcourse lightly!)?
        c) Your answer refering to the physical strength of men is  
           not true. I have seen cases in my life where women
           beat men or women's relatives beat men etc. Your explaination
           might be true, if atall for a tribal arab society!!
        d) Why a man cannot take his women to an Islamic court right
           at the start rather first trying to beat her (offcourse lightly).

        [on contrary " women for you are like your fields. You can
                        use them the way you wish..."
        ]

        Please give clear answers to these questions dont try to drag
        me in circles [namely on the meanings of word beating and lightly].


    4. Let me now quote what you wrote on polygamy,
       "
        Then there is always the most common stereotype and misconception,
        namely that regarding polygyny.  The Qur'an is quite clear in
        specifying the stringent conditions under which it may be permissible:

        3. If ye fear that ye shall not
           Be able to deal justly
           With the orphans,
           Marry women of your choice,
           Two, or three, or four;
           But if ye fear that ye shall not
           Be able to deal justly (with them),
           Then only one, or (a captive)
           That your right hands possess.
           That will be more suitable,
           To prevent you
           From doing injustice.
        "

        Here again you have to be absolutely biased to ignore a clear
        discrimination. You say that it is good for orphans, I say that
        second marriage both on the part of male/female can also be
        destructive for the children. You say that it is not for everyone
        well where in quran it is written that it is not for every one?
        Which humanitarian aspects allow a man to have more than one
        wife but do not allow a women to have more than one husband?
        There are converse examples where one women can have more than
        one husband (Tibet), Are muslims doing better?
        Having multiple wifes was just a tradition for the society
        and Mohammad just tried to be a bit rational, by imposing
        a restriction of 4 [only for others not for himself].

    4. Now let us take your Quote on witness;
       "
        Another favorite quote of the Islam-basher comes from 2:282, a passage
        referring to transactions:

          And get two witnesses,
          Out of your own men,
          And if there are not two men,
          Then a man and two women,
          Such as ye choose,
          For witnesses,
          So that if one of them errs,
          The other can remind her.

          The critic will try to argue that the above equates a man with two
          women.  Clearly, the need for the second witness is *only* in case of
          error.  This does not mean that two women's votes are equal to one
          man's. This is consistent with the rest of the Qur'an -- nowhere is
          it stated that two women's statements are equal to one man's.  
        "
      Again a case of absolute ignorance, and please do not try to 
      change meanings, Quran is very explicit here and does not need
      your desperate commentary.

      a) Why ONE man and TWO women at first place?
      b) Why one should not have ONE women and TWO MEN so that if one 
         makes an error the other man can remind him?
      c) Where in Quran it is said that you should elect your Government
         by voting, and men and women should have equal weights?

    So you have some substance to work at. There are some other comments due.
    Even If I had to defend Islam I would not do it the way you have tried.
    By making above quotes and trying to conclude equality of women you are 
    only making fool of yourself and Islam. On most topics the Quranic 
    verses are very explicit indeed, and do not need any, commentary. 
    and if this was not the case Mohammad had also written a commentary.

    Quranic laws were written for a society which was tribal and
    male dominant, and if we look at it in this prospective then it
    easy to understand why these laws are as they are. Indeed they
    were a step forward at that time.

    Human history has travelled 1500 years since then, a lot has
    been learned and applied to the society. A lot has been understood
    and discovered on male and female relations within a society.
    Obviously Quran made a step forward with respect to it own time,
    but by forcing it on yourself or others after 1500 years you are only 
    making a leap backwards. 

    Lucky ME, you and MULLAHS like you can never turn the clock arround.

    I do not say that the current advance human societies do not
    have any problems, but if they dont then what attraction we
    will have in this world?

    Who would have invented Quantum Mechanics if Newtons laws
    were good for all?

    As I have said before there is another way to look at it and that is
    the Islamic History of 1500 years. Can you give examples from
    such a long history when Muslims really made good out of Quran [beside
    4 Khulifas]? 

    Even if we assume that Quran is a perfact book it does
    not solve any problem unless it becomes a practicable set of laws
    and if they are practicable? can only be juged from the 1500
    years history not from the words spitted out of a MULLAH's mouth.
    And even if the only required quality is the so called beuty of ideas 
    then why should I go for Quran? why not "UTOPIA".

    [Islam could not even keep East and West Pakistan together.!]

    [ I wonder when we will stop beating the drums;
      PIDRUM SULTAN BOO....
      PIDRUM SULTAN BOO....
      PIDRUM SULTAN BOO....
      and start looking at the facts, (miserable indeed they are)
      but it is never late.
    ]


    Mirza Ilyas
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh