HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aftab@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov (Aftab Ahmad;MU-SPIN/CESDIS)
Subject: Re: Pakistan
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:15:47 GMT

hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:

>In article <1992Dec16.150317.2825@seas.gwu.edu> ahmad@seas.gwu.edu (Aftab Ahmad) writes:
>>In article <liq3i3INN8ci@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu> hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:
>>>I will first reparaphrase the points I wanted to make for a
>>>more fruitful discussion.
>>>
>>	To me it seems that the Muslims did live harmoniously with "the
>>masters" after the 1857 war. May be just a different point of view.   

>Would you consider the following as "living harmoniously"
>	1: Khilafat movement?
>	2: Non cooperation movment?
>	3: The massacre of Jallianwallah Bagh?
>	4: Imprisonments of Ali Brothers
>		boli amaaN Mohammad Ali ki
>		keh jaan beyta Khilafat peh deyna
>		[Mother of Mohammad Ali jauhar said:
>		Son give your life on the altar of Khilafat]
>	5: Imprisonments of Hasrat Mohaani (remember his
>			perpetual "chakki peesna")
>	6: Leaving of Jinnah for England after his disillusionment
>	7: After 1935 there was nothing more like "harmony".
	Are you saying that before 1935 there was something like
z#resattz#resatt

>>>
>>>2: Sir Syed and like minded people opposed this policy of seclusion
>>>   of the general ulemas. They embarked on a more compromising path.
>>>
>>>3: Generation raised under Sir Syed lost sight of the reasons of 
>>>   (i) why ulemas didn't compromise, (ii) why Sir Syed compromised.
>>>
>>>4: Therefore, we saw between 1900-20 efforts by Mohammad Ali Jauhar and
>>>   co to follow Turkey's youthful march towards modernism.
>>> 
>>	Putting 2, 3 and 4 together, it looks that you see modernism
>>synonymous with "compromising path". Do you see "Suleh Hudeebiah" 
>>(prophet Muhammad's agreement with Meccans) as a compromising path
>>(or modernisim). If you do, then you will have to agree that Aligarians
>>were more "orthodox" than Ulemas if Orthodoxy means following the original
>>lifestyle of prophet of Islam.

>How does "suleh hudaibiya enter the picture here?
>How about Badar, Khayber, Auhud, Khandaq, 
>	victory of Mecca, Yermouk, Qadsiya...
>	
>>	I thought the whole point in Hindu-Muslim unity was a claim
>>by Jinnah/Aligarians that they are two different nations - so they
>>must compromise to let the country run. If before 30s and 40s they
>>did not believe the "HIndus and Muslims are two nations", why were 
>>they trying to unite them. See my point!
>What is your point?

>Unity is only possible if you see that "differences" are less than
>the "commonalities". However, if the differences are more than the
>"commonalities" then there is no chance of unity.

>That is, in their
>opinion (incorrectly) the difference betwen the two was not so great
>as to matter much in the compromise. However, they realized that
>what the thought was negligible was not so negligible. 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
From: rairan@ecf.toronto.edu (RAI Ranjan)
Subject: Re: muslims - first line
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Distribution: soc
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:56:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.4739.24182@dosgate> "faraz rabbani" <faraz.rabbani@canrem.com> writes:
>A typically "enlightened letter", as one would expect:
>
> DB> I WOULD BE VERY GLAD TO ENLIGHTEN YOU ON HINDUISM , BUT BEFORE THAT
> DB> COULD YOU PLEASE CLARIFY SOME OF MY NUMEROUS DOUBTS ABOUT YOUR
> DB> HOLY RELIGION
> DB> 1) WHY DO YOU GUYS CHOP-OFF YOUE P*N*S AT ONE END ?????
>
>It is called circumcision and it is for hygiene and health purposed
>(scientifically proven)...
>
>Faraz Rabbani

Nowadays there is no particular need for circumcision.  Men who lived in
areas where access to bathing facilities was limited, such as the Middle
East and Europe, had to be circumcised for reasons of hygiene.  It was
made a religious thing to ensure that parents did it to their sons.  

Hindus are not circumcised because there was never really a need for it
in India.

-- 
Ranjan Rai                             <rairan@ecf.toronto.edu> 
Engineering Science 9T3                <rr@odin.control.toronto.edu> 
University of Toronto                    
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: fb78@sol.acs.unt.edu (Ganesh Gopalakrishnan)
Subject: Re: Washington Ready to Brand Pakistan a Terrorist State
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:06:57 GMT

fmbutt@engage.sps.mot.com (Farooq M. Butt) writes:

>So what should Pakistan do: IMHO, we should immediately begin attracting 
>non-Western capital (i.e. Japanese, Malaysia, Chinese etc.) by 
>*whatever means we have to* and create Far-Eastern interests in Pakistan.
>That way we stand a chance of being listened to as a productive, 
>exporting country. Remember: as long as we remain beggared loudmouths
>shouting Islamic slogans nobody in power will listen.  The powerful 
>only respect the powerful: be that economically powerful or militarily 
>powerful or geopolitcally powerful.  We have no real huge military and 
>have no chance of getting one real soon, no geopolitical importance 
>anymore so we have concentrate of gaining economic mass ASAP. 

A BETTER SOLUTION WOULD BE FOR INDIA AND PAKISTAN TO BURY THE HATCHET,
HATRED, MUTUAL SUSPICIONS ETC AND WORK TOWARDS ECONOMIC BETTERMENT
OF THEIR PEOPLES. FREE TRADE, EXCHANGE OF IDEAS AND MUTUAL TOLERANCE
WILL BE SO MUCH BENEFICIAL IN THE LONG RUN. WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A
REPLICA OF CANADA-US IN SOUTH ASIA? REGARDS. - GANESH

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian
From: ssh@allegra.att.com (syed s haider)
Subject: Re: Washington Ready to Brand Pakistan a Terrorist State
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:17:58 GMT

In article <BzG4pM.J2o@ecf.toronto.edu> rairan@ecf.toronto.edu (RAI Ranjan) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.145211.28197@allegra.att.com> ssh@allegra.att.com (syed s haider) writes:
>>Interesting.  Regardless of whether one considers the Kashmiri Muslims
>>separatists, terrorists, guerillas, or freedom fighters, one has only to
>>look at U.S. foreign policy towards [and her interference in] Central
>>America in the recent past to come to the conclusion that the U.S. belongs
>>very near the top of that list.  Nicaragua and El Salvador come readily
>>to mind.
>>
>>Syed Shehryar Haider
>>ssh@allegra.att.com
>
>I find this whole business rather ironic.  Pakistan has been kissing Uncle 
>Sam's red, white, and blue ass for over forty years and this is the way
>the US pays them back.  On the other hand, India has stubbornly insisted
>on it's non-aligned stutus since 1947, and now the US is doing it's best to
>be friendly towards India.  Maybe Pakistan should start behaving more like 
>India.  Any thoughts?

IMO, Pakistan is no longer considered strategically important by the U.S.
Foreign policy is based on national interest, not goodwill.  With time, if
the national priorities change, so does policy.  Past performance is
no guarantee of future results.  Hmmm... where else have I heard that?

>
>Well, at least now Pakistan can claim the moral high ground and join the 
>ranks of such nation states as Nicaragua and El Salvador.

I didn't say anything about the relative morality of the U.S. and its
"victims" :-).  By all means the U.S. can label Pakistan as a terrorist
state.  But I suppose it's too much to expect that same definition [in
the original article] to apply across the board to all other nations.

Syed Shehryar Haider
ssh@allegra.att.com
From: fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: AHMADIYYA HEAD'S  RESPONSE ON BABRI MOSQUE
Date: 15 Dec 1992 23:25:33 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <nahmed-151292165558@amac155.acns.nwu.edu> nahmed@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Nawaz Ahmed) writes:
>Dear Friends!
>
>Below is the reaction/response from Supreme Head of the worldwide Islamic
>sect "Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam". Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmed is fourth
>successor of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed who claimed to be Mahdi and Promised
>Messiah of this age as foretold to Muslims and to all followers of Every
>Faith. Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmed is known as Khalifat-ul-Masih IV and
>commonly called Hazoor by his followers. He resides in London UK and his
>friday sermons (addresses) are watched/heard via settelite every friday in
>four continents of the world. At present only he enjoys this distinction of
>his address reaches every week arround the globe.
>
>This address has been translated from Urdu into English by Mr.Nadeem Ahmed.
>Mr Nadeem Ahmed can be reached on this E.Mail address.
>
[bulk of posting deleted]

What on earth has this got to do with soc.culture.british?

-- 
____________________________________________________________________
Dawn over the dark sea brings on the sun;                      
She leans across the hilltop: see, the light!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian
From: hasan@cs.washington.edu (Shams Hasan)
Subject: Re: Islam Preaching Equality
Summary: Who the blazes....... 
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 20:03:42 GMT


My dear Mr. Shakil,

If you are not Pakistani, then who in the balzes are you ?
If you are not interested in Pakistan, why do you continue to misuse this forum?

Please, please justigy your obsession. We are all dying to hear your answer.

Best Regards,
Shams Hasan.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch (Nadeem Malik)
Subject: Re: Islam on other planets
Reply-To: nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:35:21 GMT

silatman@hls.com wrote:


:     Islam is the religion of the Universe. 

:     On other planets, in other societies, with all different
: types of creatures existing there, the religion is still
: Islam, the one worshipped is still Allah swt. And the Prophet
: of God is still Muhammad Mustafa [saw]. 

:     Please note: Rasul Allah [saw] is a Prophet for
: the whole Universe. 

:     Just like on earth, the humans and the jinn and
: the animals, all pray to Allah swt in the ways prescribed
: to them, at the times prescribed to them, so do 
: the inhabitants of other planets.

:     The inhabitants of other planets have their scriptures
: from Allah swt.

Well, not quite. In the Quran, Muhammad (saw) is repeatedly mentioned as a 
prophet to MANKIND. The quran is a guidance to MANKIND. Hence the Islam in the
Holy Quran is for humans only, any Holy Prophet is God's 'embassador' for humans
only.

However, philosophically, we can say that at the most general, cosmic level, Islam
is a the religion of the universe in the sense that Islam means 'peace' and 
'submission'. That is, all peoples and civilizations anywhere in the universe will
be following their form of Islam according to how God had revealed there source
of peace and submission for them. 

In short, one has to distinguish between the different levels of usage of Islam.

Nadeem Malik
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Subject: Re:  AIR News (3pm EST)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:02:10 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.

In article <93770008@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> syed@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Tanwir Syed-Mohammad) writes:
>
>> From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
>> >In article <1992Dec12.163734.66958@slate.mines.colorado.edu> imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM ) writes:
>> >>
>> >>	Muslims in Pakistan offered Jumma Prayer in one of the 
>> >>	biggest temple in Sindh near Indus River.
>> >> 
>> >
>> >Pray tell me how does this act prove us muslims to be better than others???
>> >Its a shame.
>> >
>> >Zafar
>> >
>> 
>> It's hard to to imagine why Indian Muslims cannot think positive. And BTW, it's
>> not "us Muslims"... The people who offered prayers in that temple have rejected
>> the idea of a religion-based nationhood. No wonder I relate better to Sindh's 
>> Hindus than to Indian Muslims... and after reading Gopal Agarwal's response to
>> your remark, I'm pretty confident that I have more in common with Indian Hindus
>> than with Indian Muslims.
>> 
>> I'd say, one way to really teach these religious pandits (muslims or hindus or 
>> else) a lesson would be that all sensible people just switch their religions.
>> To hell with these frauds...
>> 
>> Nadeem
>
>I am not sure about your beliefs, but your name sounds Muslims.  Anyway, based
>on your suggestion, why don't you switch first and set the trend.  

very cute :) I never suggested that I switch first and set a trend :)
I did not even suggest that anyone switch. 

>
>No even think about you that you even have the capability to relate to Indian
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Muslims.  
^^^^^^^^

I haven't a clue what you're trying to say...

>I do think that you can relate to anyone who is unable to relate to
>the URDU speaking immigrants living in SINDH.
>

That's incorrect

>
>Tanwir Syed
>

Nadeem

-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7527
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Pakistan
Date: 16 Dec 1992 17:25:02 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Dec16.150317.2825@seas.gwu.edu> ahmad@seas.gwu.edu (Aftab Ahmad) writes:
>>
::
:::	Given your point of view it becomes imperative for the Muslim
:::ulmas to conform to the struggle for an independent country. But what
:::we see is a different attitude. Assuming that the "liberals" (that's what
:::you call) gave up before Hindu-Muslim differences: it means in other words they
:::joined hands with the spiritual heads as far as the two-nation theory
:::goes, where were they (ulemas) at the time of movement. I see Ahmadies for
:::the creation of pakistan and Jamaat-e-Islami against it. This is a big
:::contradiction in your theory. Or would you say that the creation of Pakistan
:::has nothing to do with the two-nation theory.

Now, we come to the crux of the matter. The one I referred to as
Ulemas being idealists. In the eyes of an Islamic scholor, why
be content with a chunk of land from the subcontinent? 
You see, Muslim ummah is the vicegerent of Allah.
They had a much broader vision. As such it was also very long
term. On the other hand, Jinnah and Co. were willing to settle 
for less quickly in a shorter period of time. Hence, I said that it was
a political difference of opinion.

:	In 8 above you say that the ulemas had not lost their hold
:on the Muslims and the Muslims had not lost their closeness with the
:ulemas. Here you say that the Ulemas had lost their leadership and the
:Muslims did not have the resources and the knowledge to understand ulemas.
:Could you throw more light on it.

I meant in the political sense. Ulemas lost their political leadership
due to the self imposed secularism that they imposed on themselves after
1857. You must know the ability of the ulemas to generate street power!
But, in the political process, we are talking about they had lost their
leadership. 

:
::
:::	And to support my argument, we lost East Pakistan only because
:::we could not give them their 'rights', and not because they or we changed
:::the religion.
:::
::So every problem in the world is a human rights issue?
::
:	What do you think?
::
:
:	Aftab Ahmad


:	As I have been saying continuously, the country was for Muslims
:and not the growth of Islamic idealogy , as some people have indicated
:on the net. Let me re-inforce my point here - Muslims demanded Pakistan
:not because Islam will prosper more in it, but because they saw their
:rights in danger.

On what account are the rights of Muslims different from those of
say Hindus?

How could a separate country safeguard the rights of Muslims?
From: r3po@spectrx.saigon.com (r3po)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Feelings, love, passion and context analysis
Keywords: poem
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 07:56:54 PST
Organization: SPECTROX SYSTEMS (408)252-1005 Silicon Valley, Ca


a "poem" that i scribbled decades ago (plus/minus 10 years)

ik fatoola ik fatooli sey bola
"Krin Kat Kraanch, Caaagh caaaaagh?!"
is par fatooli
kuch bi na boli

phir wohi pehley wala fatoola
du-bara sey bola
"Krin Kat Kraanch, Caagh caaaaagh...Krimfut??!"
is par fatooli
chupkey sey boli
"Khudaya, yeh kab boolna seekhey ga"

-r3po

PS: sorry for wasting bandwidth, but i post on impulse (and sometimes
    on the net too!). can someone come up with a more meaningless
    poem than this....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
r3po@spectrx.saigon.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: hasan@cs.washington.edu (Shams Hasan)
Subject: My Recent Posting on Aspects of Hinduism
Followup-To: All the *secular* and *highly qualified* Hindus
Summary: Recvd more than 10 mails from Hindus defending Hinduism...
Keywords: Recognize the TRUTH, the way to your salvation, Submit to God!
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 03:15:08 GMT

My dear fellow netters,

I have received a dozen of or so mail from Hindus, which I believe is mainly
by Indian Hindus who are not only eloquent but very strongly feel about
what I have said  regarding Hindu religion.

I mentioned certain aspects of Hinduism as I knew and have seen on my trip
to India in 1977. Also, as I have been brought up mainly in the west  from
high schoo onwards, had several opportunities to read at length books by
Western authors on the practices of Hindus in India, and in general before
the coming of British and before them the Mughals.

The aspects of Hinduism that have bothered me most, are

1) Nazism, and racism as dictated by the religion, and not something that
was dictated by any ruler. 

2) The practice of Prostitution in the religious book Kuma Sutra that was
discontinued on the advent of Islam by Moghuls, but later adopted by the
corrupt Muslims that to this day is practiced, eg. Mujra, both in India,
and in Pakistan.

3) Satti, was practiced widely across all India and if it was not for the
British governments horror, and disgust, the practice would have been
still practiced. If the British educated Hindus saw and did something to
eradicate it, India is so much better off.

4) The film Kamla, as much as it was tried to subdue brought out the status
of women in India. Much as everone may criticize the Purdha and efforts for
the respect and decency towards women in Islam by Muslims in their families,
it gives protection and security. What was reported in the news about women
burnt recently either as Satti, or for dowry, is only what got out.
These are highly kept secrets that are kept away from the press and what we
found out was a small percentage of the truth.

I donot condone violence, even as harsh as my postings sound, but I do get
disgusted by people posing as something that is not the truth. To give you
a recent example, based upon religion the Indian fellow in Oregon bomboozuled
the American public by sweet talking and sugar coated utopia, and stole
millions and millions of dollars. He was doing the same thing in India, earlier
but only when he did that in US, did the Indian government realize that it was
bad PR and decided to bar him from entering India.

Hinduism, I am sure has certain good aspects, but overall, the religion has
more drawbacks and  dangers as evident from the action of more than 200,000
hindus did despite orders from their highest court in the land not to.

Best Regards,
Shams Hasan.
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1992 23:24:53 EST
From: AMR E MALIK <32JMX3X@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: pak email news server

Hi
  Does anybody know what the deal is with the pakistan news (email) server
which was started by some people on this group? I subscribed to it a week
ago but haven't gotten any thing yet. Are the news sent on monthly basis?
I would be grateful if somebody could tell me what is going on with that

thankX
amr malik
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re : IDIOT NI-SHIT STRIKES AGAIN
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:31:06 GMT
Organization: Colorado School of Mines

Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Colorado School of Mines
Keywords: 

In article <BzDEFL.Ds@news.cso.uiuc.edu> nd3375@meibm5.cen.uiuc.edu (Nishit Dey) writes:
>Mustafa Ibrahim from COLARADO write
>
>
>Why dont you be ashamed yourself as a Bangladeshi ?  Yes your freedom
>fighters killed 4 million (yes 4 million non-bengali people on the
>name of banglaism). They looted the property of those poeple who didnot
>want Bangladesh. The proof is still there. Yes 3 lacks innocent muslims
>are living in regfugee Camps in the so called Sonar Bangla. Bangladesh
>can never ever be prosper if there are bad prayers and wishes of the
>refugees . God is destroying this country with floods and tornados. The
>same contry (the poorest in the world) is now asking Pakistan for Help.
>Please help me ! Please help me ! I am dying . I cannot survive . So
>Pakistan is sending food and cloths in the name of God. The economy of
>Sonar Bangla (:-)) is all screwed up. Now bengalis are getting fed up
>with Sonar Bangla and running away to other countries . My country is
>now a very good place for them. If you dont believe me come and see
>how fast is growing the population of sonar bengalis :-). When somebody
>ask them What happened to Sonar Bangla . They reply,  ' We dont know
>it was a nightmare . We were mislead on the name of Banglaism .
>There are hell lot of things that can be discussed on this net
>but unfortunately I dont have enough time. I hope this is sufficent
>for today .Go and apologize your God on the sins that you have committed.
>
>******************************************************************************
>
>
>
>Do you know that everybody in SCI , SCB and SCP are ashamed of your behavior?
>WHat can we expect from a guy who doesn't know the difference between
>sweet and sweat. Hey Mustafa I have told you many times, take rest.  Don't
>get involved in this type of discussion.  Believe me you don't have that
>much intellectual capability. Don't overwork your brain. You know what happens
>when you pass high voltage through a low voltage appliance...
>
>
>Bye
>
>
>Nishit


Hey ni-shit since shit is a piece of your name , you are definitely a 
piece of shit. You need a lot of brain to understand my postings. 
Nonsense buddy how  can I write you sweet heart ? Thats' why I 
typed sweat heart . Got it  moron !!
You are overworking yourself. To pass high voltage through a low
voltage  appliance is my hobby and right now you are my low
voltage appliance . Got it again moron ! 
Yes shitty people like you are ashamed of themselves because I have
shown them the mirror .
Hope is enough for today.
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan