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Approved-By:  Bill McGarry <wtm@SHELDEV.SHEL.ISC-BR.COM>
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:44:57 EST
Reply-To:     Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 3014

                             THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                                 Issue # 3014

                          Friday, November 06, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******


                                  Education
                           Re: DEAFNESS & IDENTITY
                             Speech Recognition
                                  Re: TELEX
                           Re: DEAFNESS & IDENTITY
                              Cochlear Implants
                              Help With Signing
                                   ACTORS
                                    Hello
                                    Sugar


                                ******


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------



Subject: Education
From: Jennifer.Satterwhite@f8018.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Jennifer Satterwhite)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/8018 - The Ratiocination B, Carrolton TX


[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]

Howdy All!

I was just wondering if I could pick your brains for a while. <grin>

I would really like to get some opinions on some educational
philosophies that I am learning.  It is very easy to get swayed one
way or another unless you have a variety of opinions.  What so you
think about
1) Oralism
2) Total Communication
3) Bilingual/Bicultural?

I can form my own opinions, but I am hearing and I haven't been in
the situation.  So, I can't very well make an education opinion
about any of them (unless I want to rely on what the "researchers"
say --which I do not!)

So, I would appreciate any feedback on any of these.  Even just a
brief little comment would help me.

Thanks!!

Jenn

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!124!8018!Jennifer.Satterwhite
Internet: Jennifer.Satterwhite@f8018.n124.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: DEAFNESS & IDENTITY
From: Vixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:203/11 - The Broken Rose BBS, Sacramento CA


[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]

 DG > Vixen,

 Yes?

 DG > your name seems rather appropriate, as I haven't see/heard
 DG > someone quite so politely yet thoroughly slammed as your name
 DG > imples you capable of.

 Well, I have had my days! I suspect, that in this case, you allude
 to my post in response to Sams missive concerning deafness and
 identity Etc.

 Please understand, my intent was not to "Slam" Sam, but to strongly
 object to his idea that deaf people are made or identified by their
 deafness.

 DG > I'm new to this echo, and somewhat shamed by the remarks
 DG > made by a hearing person.

 Well, I don't wish Sam to be ashamed of his remarks, but rather I
 would want him to know that his idea that deaf people are made or
 identified by their deafness is among the worst kind of stereotyping
 and fallacy. Deaf and hard of hearing people are as individual as
 hearing people. Being part of Deaf culture or sharing the common
 experience of being hearing impaired does not in itself, identity us
 as separate individuals, which we certainly are.

 DG > I am glad to say that my position, as well as other hearing
 DG > people I know, DO NOT correspond to the one you slammed.

 Well again, my intent was not to "slam" Sam but most certainly to
 object. I suspect that Sams intentions are well meant if not fully
 correct.

 DG > I have to agree, hearing dis/ability is a CONDITION, not an
 DG > ethnicity.

 Yes, a person of any ethnicity may be deaf or hard of hearing.

 DG > If you tried to nail my ethnicity down, you'd be decieved my
 DG > the last name AND by my appearance.

 I understand. I have a rather French or English sounding Surname
 but my ethnic background is Celtic.

 DG > Just putting in my two cents....-Dave

 Well, I am glad that you did. I hope that you will always feel free
 to do so!

 Keepin' the faith!

 .                           Vixen

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Vixen
Internet: Vixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Speech Recognition
From: Dario.Broggini@f307.n331.z2.fidonet.org (Dario Broggini)
Organization: FidoNet node 2:331/307


[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]

In a message about speech recognition, Doug Roberts wrote:

 Speech Recognition: is anybody out there experimenting
 with this technology on their home computer? I know
 that speech recognition has a long way to go yet, but
 perhaps there are some rudimentary forms that would be
 useful, especially for the hearing impaired, like myself.

 If there were a system that did nothing more than recognize
 individually pronounced characters, it would help me
 on the phone a lot. So that when someone starts spelling
 their name to me, or giving a number, it would show up
 on my pc screen. What is available for just that?

Dear Doug:

What you write is really what I was always thinking! What you call
"individually pronounced characters" are the so-called 'phonemes'.
For instance, when you say the phrase: "I need something to listen
to the phone", you are really saying a sequence of phonemes that
cannot be written in real Int'l Phonetic Ass'n (IPA) symbols here,
but that could be approximated as this: /ai'nid 'sAmTHin tA'lisAn
tADHA'foun/.

The same sentence in Italian is "Ho bisogno di qualcosa per
ascoltare il telefono" and could be approximated as: /obi'zoNYo
dikwal'koza peraskol'tare ilte'lefono/. Now, if such a device
should transcribe the phonemes in IPA, you had to make a very big
effort to recognize the words from those characters.

I have a better solution for transcribing English phonemes, but it
cannot be used in an electronic device because that device cannot
know what the words really are. For instance, I usually write the
dot of an i over the E of "English" and the u of "business", so I
can remember that those vowels have the sound of an i (in IPA it
would be /i/). But no device can understand when it has to write a
dotted E or U instead of an I. So you stay in trouble. Instead, in
Italian and Spanish there's no trouble because such languages are
written phonetically. But another problem remains: every person
pronounces the same phoneme in a slightly different way, so that
the device has to work hard to recognize it as the same sound.
Think of the different way a man and a woman speak. Honestly, I do
not know if there's already a device capable to recognize single
phonemes in a continuous speech.

If that device exists, I also need it! I would use it to read on
screen what the people say. Maybe you know the song "O sole mio"
(Oh my sun)... If it could be transcribed on a computer screen
without any attempt to isolate the single words (a hard work for a
machine!), but emphasizing the stressed vowels (i.e. in capital
letters), like: [ osOlemIo ], then I'd have no difficulty in
understanding what's said. But I fear that the researchers
presently active in this field don't share this way to see the
things, because they all are intent on making the machines
recognize individual words, not phonemes, and this is a mastodontic
effort for machines that have less intelligence than a mosquito! So
I fear the hearing people will continue having dictation devices
not really useful for business, and we deafies having no simple
phoneme transcribers! I hate when the things go such way...

 _ _

In reply to that message, Jack O'Keeffe wrote:

 Speech recognition may be closer than you think, Doug.  I attended
 a conference last year in Cambridge, MA, sponsored by the Regional
 Bell Operating Companies, on speech input/output.  Patricia Flynn
 McKenzie of Dragon Systems told us that Dragon was now demoing a
 continuous sppech recognition system with 10,000 word vocabulary.
 Said they were waiting for faster hardware (which has since become
 available).  She predicted availability in two years, and that was
 almost a year ago :-)

Jack, that's very interesting for me! You have to understand a
thing. Italian has no more than a thousand commonly used syllables
(in opposition to English, where practically any word is a
syllable). Since the short pause between a syllable and the other
has the same duration of the pause between article and noun (for
instance "the wall" = "il muro" are both pronounced as they were
single words), if that Dragon system is already capable to
recognize 1000 words in continuous speech, with indifference to
minimal variations of the sounds, then it can be already adequate
for me. I could set it to recognize as words the single syllables
of Italian, so it could transcribe _all_ the Italian words for me,
syllable after syllable. In the example above, "O sole mio" would
become [ o so le mi o ]. Do you think it can already be done?

_ _

In his reply to Doug, Daniel Pratt wrote:

DragonDictate and VoiceType both provide accurate voice recognition
of up to 40 words per min. I'm a quadraplegic who uses DragonDictate,
and it works unbelievably.

Dear Dan:

But does it work unbelievably because it recognizes your own speech
only? Sure, you speak and it writes, but you can hear what other
people say, I think? If another person speaks at normal speed, can
your device transcribe what s/he says without having to load a
vocabulary previously built upon her/his voice??? If so, I do need
it!!! :-)

If not, all the deaf still have to wait... :-(

Ciao-Bye!
            \ /
_______            _:_
Gatto Bianco

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!2!331!307!Dario.Broggini
Internet: Dario.Broggini@f307.n331.z2.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: TELEX
From: Vixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:203/11 - The Broken Rose BBS, Sacramento CA


[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]

 FG > Hello Vixen,

 Hi Felix,

 FG > Hey, cut it out. No one is under obligation to reply,

 Well, you know, even Vixens can be polite!

 FG >..Vixen > my behind the ear aids are nice in that they are
 FG >..Vixen > fairly powerful and yet impressively small.

 I suspect that you have more hair behind the ears too :)

 Well, my hearing aids are'nt invisible or hidden in the ear, but
 they are impressively small for Behind the ear types.

 FG > Can't answer that (besides what is the difference between
 FG > typical or common <G>?).

 Common more accurately applies to the general experience of the
 client while typical more accurately applies to the behaviour of
 audiologists.

 FG > What I do consider common is the attitude of these para-
 FG > professionals; they quite uniformly want to project the image
 FG > that they know more than the patient.

 I suspect that there are some audiologists who do think they must
 always know more than the client and that there are some clients
 who always believe they must know more than audiologists.

 FG > I tell you one thing that may be a problem, none of
 FG > them are HoH.

         I am not sure be sure that it must always hold that the
 subjective experience is necessarily more valid than the objective
 in this instance.

 FG > But I should not pick on them because they exist in other
 FG > health care areas also (e.g. dental hygenists).

 Not very long ago, I read a message in another echo from a person
 who had lived for some ten years or so with some multiple
 psychiatric problems. This person stated he must know more than all
 psychiatrists about the nature of his diagnosis since he actually
 lived it. I rather suspect that there is a flaw in this kind of
 logic. This because having a certain problem or experience does not
 necessarily indicate any particular insight as to the hows and whys
 of such an experience and least of all, would imply the ability to
 decide a proper course of treatment.

 FG > Yes, that is correct. Problem is you can only provide your
 FG > feedback based on the environment in that quiet office.
 FG > Then when you go back to your office, you may realize that
 FG > yesterday (before the adjustments) you could hear people
 FG > better.

 Yes, it is true that we go back to that quite office, that is
 necessary because I can only hear in a quiet environment while
 wearing only my behind the ear aids. But I am also tested in
 noisy environments as well.

 FG > If you think back real hard, you may find that each time you
 FG > went in the technician started to adjust your aid without first
 FG > asking if you thought that the settings should be changed.

 It is true that after testing, I have been asked if I would like to
 try some further adjustments, to which I usually agree. But, I have
 always been the one to say, "There, this is the setting "I" like
 best.

 FG > If we had lots of money we could hire a few students and have
 FG > them interview people with hearing aids. But since we don't
 FG > (perhaps I should just speak for myself <g>) we will never
 FG > know the answer to that question.

 I look at it all this way, I am hearing impaired and it is not very
 likely that there is an audiologist or physician anywhere, who can
 find a way to tune my hearing aids to a way so proper for me, that
 it will ever approach anything approximate to normal hearing. I am
 deaf and getting deafer. That would be so even if I were able to
 tune my aids myself.

 FG > I tell you what I think it is; a 2-piece, powerful hearing
 FG > aid which allows you to put a microphone close to the sound-
 FG > source.

 Yep, you're just such a hep guy! That's what it is.

 FG > I have seen some with long wires connecting the two, but
 FG > somehow I think that you may be referring to a cordless variety.
 FG > Close?

 Yes, my TELEX is made up of a remote transmiitter with a microphone
 which can be worn by another person or placed near a sound source and
 a receiver which is worn by me. The receiver can have its own
 earphones or it can be booted directly to one of your hearing aids.
 I have the boot. I generally wear the receiver at my waist and a
 cord runs from it and connects to a special connecting boot on the
 hearing aid worn on my better ear.

 FG > And who wants to hear the door bell anyhow. I love it.

 My doorbell does'nt make any noise. It is connected to strobelights
 very strategically placed (I am legally blind) throughout my
 apartment.

 FG > I am not sure what a "wild child" is, nor whether "wild"
 FG > refers to the child, or something the mother did to have one
 FG > <g>.

 You are being teasingly obtuse!

 FG > I will cool it for a while. Your relaxed answers have almost
 FG > made me feel like I was being overly negative.

 To be frank, I do perceive a certain negativity and maybe even a
 hint of anger in your tone. Still, comparing our individual
 experiences, I get the impression that I have been the receipient
 of much better care. I have been impressed with much that you have
 had to say because of what I perceive to be a glaring difference in
 experiences. And it is discouraging to think that your experience
 with Audiologists, Et Cetera, might be the more common!

 FG > Also, if I want to have any impact on the existing structure,
 FG > I ought to first know everyhting about it, not just the little
 FG > bit I have seen from a patient's point of view.

 As was the point of some of my above comments.

 FG > This is where my activism usually falls apart: Get involved in
 FG > a lot of research, or leave it alone. Guess which is easier :)

 Well, I think it is quite likely that being the patient and having
 the disease (So to speak) does not endow superior knowledge and
 and understanding. Still, the patients input is very important.

 FG >  Take Care, <felix>

 You bet, you do the same!

 Keepin' the faith!

 .                          Vixen

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Vixen
Internet: Vixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: DEAFNESS & IDENTITY
From: Vixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org (Vixen)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:203/11 - The Broken Rose BBS, Sacramento CA


[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]

 SC >> True empowered Deaf people dont obsess about wanting to
 SC >> hear and think that Deafness is their Idenity! SAm
 VIXEN > Since you are a hearing person anmong many hearing impaired
 VIXEN > in this forum, I would suggest that you might want to be very
 VIXEN > careful concerning judgements about what deaf people do and
 VIXEN > don't think and who and who is'nt empowered.

 PR > This goes for ANY type of disability.

 As a person with multiple handicaps, I can attest to that!

 PR > It's one thing to 'learn and be exposed to it' and 'be a
 PR > victim' of whatever the disability may be.

 Agreed, being exposed to deaf people is not at all the same thing
 as being deaf or hard of hearing yourself.

 Keepin' the faith!

 .                              Vixen

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!203!11!Vixen
Internet: Vixen@f11.n203.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Cochlear Implants
From: Dario.Broggini@f307.n331.z2.fidonet.org (Dario Broggini)
Organization: FidoNet node 2:331/307


[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]

About cochlear implants, Sam Calvert wrote:

 at Northeastern University who has done extensive research on
 the subject and is against it.  He is also hearing.

In reply to that, Jack O'Keeffe wrote:

 Sam, if you look you will doubtless find other hearing "researchers"
 and "academics" who feel threatened by anything that will enable deaf
 people to hear.  They think they need a dependent deaf population to
 give them a feeling of control, superiority, and domination.

Sorry, Jack, but what you wrote above is sort of paranoia in my
opinion... how can you really think that those researchers need to
keep the deaf people deaf in order to feel superior? You're joking,
Jack!

I believe that the truth is the contrary indeed: with cochlear
implants, many deaf persons are being used like guinea pigs,
without consideration for their life, health, lack of physical
suffering, and intelligence preservation. The reasoning of those
experimenters sounds like this: "This kid is deaf, so we are
authorized to make what we want inside his/her brain, because being
deaf s/he's otherwise doomed to become mentally retarded anyway".
You know, even many doctors still believe that if a person is
unable to understand what they say, s/he's invariably an idiot.

And I do not believe that those implants can enable the deep deaf
to understand speech, because if so, we could already use that
technology to build a speech recognizer to be put in a pocket,
connected to an LCD screen inside one eyeglasses lens, showing
syllables as they are spoken from the interlocutor(s). And all that
without surgical dangers! I think that when Casper, DragonDictate
or other good continuous speech and/or phoneme recognizers are
ready, that will be the solution, at least for those deaf whose
language is phonetical (like Spanish or Italian). And maybe this
solution is already realizable, but no one thinks of it because no
researcher is deaf and verbal-thinking, so no one of them has still
thought of the benefits this simple phoneme or syllable recognition
could have for the verbal-thinking deaf!

Jack O'Keeffe wrote also:

I have no argument with anyone who chooses not to have
a cochlear implant.

Sorry, Jack... I, instead, think to have some adverse arguments.
First of all, the presumption that no cochlear implant has still
reached the perfection of the biological cochlea, so that they
cannot enable us to hear sounds in the same way and really
understand speech.

But let's see this example now. One of the first cochlear implants
included a piece of metal, part of which was inside and part
outside the cranial bone and skin. If you think of it with a
minimum of good sense, you cannot but be horrified! Neither bone
nor skin can merge into metal. Whenever you wash your hair, you run
the risk of bumping or moving that piece of metal, and sooner or
later a microscopic leak will form and bacteria pass through it.
You run the risk of getting a maybe fatal meningitis! To hear noise
(not to understand speech), you run the risk of becoming an idiot,
or staying paralyzed all your life long! Is it worthwhile? I think
not. So, I think that those adverse researchers simply believe that
the advantages of the cochlear implants are not worth their risks.

Even the ultimate implants are not too convincing to me. You know,
those little pieces of metal that are put completely inside your
head and communicate with an external transceiver through a strong
electromagnetic field. There are studies that suggest that strong
electromagnetic fields are dangerous to life and can lead to
cancer. No one would allow a normal (hearing) child to be exposed
to such fields all its life. So, why should a deaf one be? Are we
perhaps thinking that hearing noise is worth the risk to suffer of
vertigoes all the life, or to get meningitis, leukemia, cancer? And
have you thought that, in case of a car accident, that metal device
would be projected through your brain, possibly causing severe
damages to your life, intelligence and personality?

Thus, as for me, a simple consideration is enough... do you
remember that unlucky fellow whose heart was substituted with an
artificial one? Well, his sad experience proved enough that no
artificial device can fully substitute a living organ... you know,
even a mosquito is more intelligent than a Cray One!

         \ /
______         _:_
White Cat
/         \

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!2!331!307!Dario.Broggini
Internet: Dario.Broggini@f307.n331.z2.fidonet.org




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Subject: Help With Signing
From: Trained.Bear@f203.n161.z1.fidonet.org (Trained Bear)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:161/203 - DVMCC, Concord CA


[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]

JB>TB>JB> "On the night he was betrayed......"

JB>TB>   or just "last dinner" ?

JB>All good ideas.  Thanks TB.

If your pastor mentions that Jesus picked up the "Elijah Cup"
the cup set on the passover table for the messiah, please
don't try to spell out "Elijah"....we just sign "prophet cup".

Currently, I'm rewriting every hymn I sign into ASL-English.
I've got about 30 on disk now.
My pastor learned fast not to try to sing from MY hymnal.
:{)
 * SLMR 2.0 * Madness takes its toll.   Please have exact change.

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!161!203!Trained.Bear
Internet: Trained.Bear@f203.n161.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: ACTORS
From: Tammy.Givens@f2213.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tammy Givens)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/2213 - The Chess Board, Grand Prairie TX


[This is from the Silent Talk Conference]

LG>                             What does everyone think about deaf
LG>protests against the use of hearing actors in deaf roles?  The

Hmmm...   I don't see a problem with it...  My brother is hearing
and played the role of ORIN in Children of a Lesser God.   I think
he did great!  I myself am hearing also.  My brother and I are both
interpreters.  The lead actress was deaf, she played SARAH.  She
signed mostly SEE, and the role called for ASL, so my brother
helped her put the lines into ASL.

I think that the hearing actor/actress can do a much better job if
they are involved with the deaf.  They can appreciate that the deaf
are people, and not to be treated like some "alien" from a distant
planet.  I've personally seen this happen when I'm with some of my
deaf friends.  Also, I've seen some hearing people be pretty stupid
when it comes to knowing what "deaf" means. For example,  My
husband and I were at a bookstore.  I was looking for a bible that
I hear about that was in english for the deaf.  (kinda like ASL
Format) Anyway, I ask the salesman about "so-in-so's Bible for the
Deaf" and he said, "we don't carry books in braille."  I just said
fine and walked away shaking my head..... I later found the bible.

And the girl that played sarah with my brother in Children of a
Lesser God, said that she and her friends went to a restaurant
(kinda like CHili's) and were signing as they were walking in.  The
waiter saw this and happily brought them braille menus.  She signed
thank you and promptly ran her ear over the menu.  The waiter then
realize his mistake!

So as long as the hearing actor does not make mistakes like
that.... I guess it's okay!

--
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Internet: Tammy.Givens@f2213.n124.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Hello
From: Richard.Kuchar@f311.n270.z1.fidonet.org (Richard Kuchar)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:270/311 - P/T BBS, Cleona PA


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

Hello everyone. I would like to introduce myself, I am the sysop of
The P/T BBS in Cleona, PA. I have a medial disk "injury" bulge in
the L4-L5 disk since March 1991. I was off of work for over a year
and have returned back part-time the end of April 1992. I am still
experiencing pain in my back, buttocks (tailbone area) and down the
right leg into the foot. My three center toes on the right foot
have numbness and/or cramping. I also experience muscle spasms,
mostly at night when I am sleeping.

I have been through water therapy, physical therapy, nerve blocks,
every known anti-inflammatory, and other medications. Each not
helping me in becoming pain free or having the movement I used to
have.

My doctors do not want to operate do to the fear of scare tissue
creating more problems than the bulge is creating now. I have had 2
MRIs and a myelogram confirming the disk bulge and disk
degeneration too. The last time I went to my neuro-surgeon, he told
me that I will have to learn to live the pain, and know my
limitations. He says the combination of the bulge and the
degeneration I have to learn to with it.

Reading over some of the messages here, I have seen message of
'failed' surgeries, I also know of others in my local area that
have had the same. The doctor that "read" the MRIs gave me a 50%
chance of improvement from surgery, the doctor that did the
myelogram gave me a 30% chance of improvement after surgery. Their
recommendations were to just wait it out.

I also know of other people claiming that are feeling a lot better
after surgery. The question to them is "How long ?". I am not sure
which way to go.

This week I will be going for another opinion. I am hoping for some
better odds than that. I am just not sure what to do, I can bear
the pain now but it is nagging and at times pretty intense (
weather changes and increased activity ).

Over the past 18+ months I have kept my sanity, thanks to my hobby
of the BBS and taught myself some programming. I am sure if I
didn't have this hobby I would have gone over the edge.

Anyone have any insight and/or recommendations from their
experiences with disk bulges and disk degeneration ?

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!270!311!Richard.Kuchar
Internet: Richard.Kuchar@f311.n270.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Sugar
From: Joe.Chamberlain@p1.f175.n150.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Chamberlain)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:150/175.1 - Busted Flush BBS, New Castle DE


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

In a message to All <31 Oct 92 17:44> Derek Juntunen wrote:

 DJ> Does anyone here have any insight on using sugar on pressure
 DJ> sores?  I am facing surgery which I REALLY don't want to have.
 DJ> It would make my life much less stressful if I could heal without
 DJ> an operation.  Thanx.

I have heard of using powdered sugar on skin abrasions but nothing
more serious.  I have just recently heard of using potatoe skins
too.  For more serious openings somedoctors have even used
maggots.  I haven't used any of these methods.

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!150!175.1!Joe.Chamberlain
Internet: Joe.Chamberlain@p1.f175.n150.z1.fidonet.org




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                  End of Issue # 3014 of the Handicap Digest

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