From: frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de (Frank O'Dwyer)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc
Subject: YOU should explain the dangers of THEOCRACY to ME????
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:13:47 GMT
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG

adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:

[...]

: 
: Religious morals and politics gotta be separate, or you end up with a
: theocracy...just look at the fun times in Iran, or during the Inquisition.
: 

Oh boy, he said the 'T' word...

Please, please, please, do not speak to _me_ of theocracy.  I live in a 
state, which if it is not a Catholic theocracy, will do until one comes along.
And if you care to say that church and state "gotta be separate", it will
be alright with me.  It is unlikely for example, that my children will
ever attend a non-denomational school in Ireland, for no such animal exists 
there.  The closest thing is a multi-denominational school, of which there 
are less than ten in my home town, for 1/3 of the country's population.  
In the catholic shools, religous education is in theory not mandatory.  In
practice, where nominally 95% of Irish people are catholic, it is.

There is no need to explain the meaning of theocracy, which you neither 
know nor understand, to me, because I live there.  I detest and rail against 
the all pervasive influence of catholism in my country, not because I am 
bigoted against catholicism (I'm over that now :-), but because I don't wish to 
see the rights of women, nor men for that matter, steamrollered in 
this way.  And yes, I am no apologist for the those few pro-life people in 
my country who will seek to deny a 14-year old pregnant rape victim the 
RIGHT TO LEAVE the godforsaken island in order to obtain an abortion, and 
these same people deny a schoolteacher her livelihood because she had the 
audacity to get pregnant _and_ have a baby by a married man.  But though I 
see that these people are not only fools, but also dangerous fools, I do 
not make the mistake of ad hominem when I consider a human rights issue
like abortion.

And you should not speak to me of theocracy, when in some parts of my 
country it is impossible to buy a condom, Steve.  I know what happens when 
religous and/or sexual morals and human rights get confused.  One of the 
possible outcomes of _that_ is the dehumanisation of human beings, in my 
view.  I know what happens very well, and I hope better than ever you will
have to.  

However, if there is one thing I am sure about it is this:  Abortion is not 
about religous morals, nor is it about sexual morals, but it is about human 
rights.  And I believe that holds no matter which side of the issue you may 
find yourself, Steve.  It does not matter which _conclusion_ you come to, 
pro- or anti-, we are still talking _human rights_.  Which encompasses more 
than does the American constitution, in fact.

That the pro-choice people choose sometimes to portray this issue as one of 
religious or sexual morals, rather than one of human rights, may fit their 
political agenda occasionally, but I'm afraid to say that it is simply a 
con.  Still, you buy it I see, so it's not in vain, is it?   About this much 
at least you have been conned, Steve, can't you see that?

:  -Steve
: --
:  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
:                         -------------------
:      adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
:      Steve Adams   "Space-age cybernomad"     Fax:   (312) 329-3558

--
Frank.ODwyer@ap.mchp.sni.de     "I heard about a couple livin' in the USA
                                 They traded in their baby for a chevrolet"
				   - Elvis Costello.  'Less than Zero'