HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <was: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?>
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:42:52 GMT

In article <BtqCJM.Ezo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>
>>A number of Templar gravesites have been found in Scotland, and their is 
>>fair evidence that at the very least they were influential in the Masonic
>>Temple, and participated in a number of battles against the English.
>
>Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've 
>seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory.  Eddie, can you help us out
>with a date for the origins of Masonry?
>
>              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>                               Br'anArthur
>
>Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

Br'anArthur,

I was using the book Ian Fraser (Hawk) mentions as a source for the origins
of Freemasonry, _The Temple and the Lodge_, written by two journalists whose
names I can't remember (I have the book if anyone's interested in more info)
and I felt their arguments were not stretching the imagination too far.  
They provided photos of Templar gravesites in Scotland. A Templar grave was
a simple ground level stone on which was hammered the outline of the knight's
sword, and nothing more. If I remember right, there were about 40 or 50
such sites found. They also went into battle records and found some references
to figures showing up on horseback who had a substantial military advantage
over the rest of the soldiers, and their description is similar to a 
mounted Templar knight.

Beyond that (and there is a lot more in the book), it makes a lot of sense
that Scotland would have made a good refuge for fleeing Templars, and it 
seems that the largely pagan-run guilds would have made a safe haven.

Between the backward-pointing titles in Masonry (such as the Order of
deMolay, the Templar leader), and the forward-pointing evidence of 
surviving Templar beliefs, I tend to stick with my earlier contention that
the "proto-Freemasonic" traditions were either formed out of Templar
ideas, or at least heavily influenced by them.

Bless sings the Blues,
Bee pops some Reds,
Miles plays some Jazz,
Ize goes to Beds.            (don't ask me where THAT came from...)

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: no kill file
Date: 23 Aug 92 17:54:17 GMT
Reply-To: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa

if you are laking the kapability for a kill file and see some thing that you
do not like the gust hit 'n' or is your system laking the ability to move to
the next artical with out you vewing it.? telling people that they can not
post there vews on something simply because the fit a catagory is worse then
asuming that every one has a kill capasity or are able to use it.(the most
that i have ever been able to git to work is 'world' and that ignores the 
intier group). I my self am rathere comp. illit.

ELF-KIN	just because some one segests that one read the bible does
not meen that they think that you should beleave it.
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: That Elvis thing
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:50:43 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <1SEP199207445068@rosie.uh.edu> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>In article <krikket.6777@meltdown.chi.il.us>, krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes...
>>In article <1992Aug27.064530.13591@colorado.edu>, bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU
>>(Bear Giles) writes:
>>Actually, I don't know if I should be more scared if Bush ot Clinton got into
>>power...  Actually my fear isn't of Clinton himself, but of his runningmate Al
>>Gore.  Keep in mind that this is the person who is married to Tipper Gore, and
>>has backed her in politics up to now.  Tipper Gore anywhere near power scares
>>me shitless.  She helped form the PMRC, which got many records self-banned (by
>>the record companies, and helped get groups like the Dead Kennedies ARRESTED)
>>because they don't support "traditional family values".
>> 
>>Either way we are going to be in for hell over the next few years...
>> 
>
>I felt the same way.  I remember feeling my heart sink into the
>pit of my stomach when I heard that Clinton selected Al Gore as
>his running mate.  It wasn't Gore himself, it was Tipper that made
>my heart sink.  While Gore isn't that great, he at least has our
>view of the envirnoment and is working like a dog trying to change
>things for "Mother Earth".
>
>While the thought of Tipper being so close to power, I had to sit
>back and think. Bush = No; Perot = No; Clinton = Yes then
>Quayle = No; Gore = No.  
>
>So I plan to vote for Clinton and hope to hell that we can keep
>a reign on Tipper.
>
>Besides shes done more to promote sales of "self-banned" records
>than the record companies could ever do by themselves.
>
>Tammy

With the incredible problems associated with the Reagan-Bush administration,
I'm never more surprised than when I hear anyone bitch about Tipper Gore.
She is only going to be the Vice President's wife, fergottsake. Look at the
influence of Marilyn Quayle on domestic policy. We have a hell of a lot more
to fear from our Reagan-Bush Supreme Court (which will still be active on
the scene) and the continuing presence of the ultra-conservative fascists
than some bimbo who thinks Judas Priest's records could kill somebody. There
are fanatics on both sides, but Tipper Gore? Hardly worth the effort of 
worrying about, compared to the other side. And certainly not a reason to 
NOT vote Bush out of office. AND I must certainly agree with the notion that
any vote for a minor party in this presidential election is a vote for Bush.

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: New pagans and reading
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 3 Sep 92 02:10:08 GMT

In article <XBoHqB2w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes:
>lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>
>> 
>> I've noticed a number of people telling people interested in 
>> paganism to go and read.  This is very true, but perhaps we
>> should get some suggestions.  I don't know about the rest of
>
>Those with difficulty getting to a large bookstore can get the Llewellyn 
>catalog by calling 1-800-THE MOON. Llewellyn carries a lot of garbage, 
>but it also handles a lot of the classics. They'll send you the catalog 
>free, for a while.
>
>I'll second the book choices Tammy suggested....
>
>Later, Bill

Well, hell.  As long as we're taking requests:

Merlin Stone's _When God Was a Woman_  This was one of the first ones I
read when I started getting interested.

Monica Sjoo/Barbara Mor's _The Great Cosmic Mother_  This WAS the first.

Rosalind Miles's _The Woman's History of the World_  NOT written by a
ballbreaker, despite the title.  It has literally NOTHING AT ALL in it
that a mancould possibly find offensive of biased.  It is there to
CORRECT a bias, and the first few chapters will give you a nice overview
of what are called "matriarchies."

Margot Adler's _Drawing Down the Moon_

ANYTHING by Barbara Walker!!!!!

Douglas Hofstadter's _Godel, Escher, Bach_  Atypical but more packed
with wonder than anything else I've ever read.  You WILL be glued to
every page, but reading it IS work.

Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_  He may yank a few chains connected to people who
thing science and spirituality are mutually exclusive, but screw `em.
Read the book!

Rodney Castleden's _Minoans: Life in Bronze Age Crete_  A scolarly
book on Minoan society, unmotivated as far as I can tell by Paganism.
This is also a must-read if you are looking elsewhere than the British
Isles.

These are all wonderful.

Blessings,
Janis

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Bailing Out (rant) (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else)
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 08:14:41 GMT

In article <krikket.7211@meltdown.chi.il.us> krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>
>Yes, but I'm still just as scared by the thought of Al Gore in the VP spot as I
>am with Bush/Quayle in for another 4 years.  Just think of the damage Tipper
>Gore could do.  She hasn'e even bothered to hide her hypocracies.  And Al Gore
>has backed her 100% while in public office...

 Yeah!! Tipper could have as much influence as Dan Quayle's wife! We'd
better watch out!

 Give me a break. I think we can keep Tipper on a good enough leash. It's
not like the Veep's wife has that much power. Have you read Gore's book on
the Environment? Do you realize that he is the one sponsoring and bringing
up all of the bills to give America a real and useful national educational
computer network?

Wassail,
Grendel

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <was: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?>
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 15:11:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.165714.5075@csus.edu>, altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray 
Altheim) writes:
> The prefix "Free" was added in the middle ages when Bubba ben
> Gazoomie (not actually related to Joseph ben Gazoomie, as he had changed 
> his name) started a blood and carrot cult ...

  Murray, you Fool !! That secret wasn't to be revealed until
the thirty-seventh revolution of the *censured*, in the time of
the fourty-second house of *censured* !!

  Now EVERYONE will want to join !!

  Glad you're feeling more perky.  Ciaran.

  $uslinit; include oblig.sig <<
  "...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
   cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy."  -- Sappho >>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Yet more music...
From: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (Anthony 'the Bard' Hobbs)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:42:19 GMT
Reply-To: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Organization: Wellington City Council, Wgtn, NZ

In article <ogorman.714512021@unix1.tcd.ie>, ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie (Lucifuge) writes:
>Wrt pagan music and getting away from the ummm new agey stuff....I'm
>like totally shocked that no one has mentioned the one and only supreme
>goddess of us all...Kate Bush...okay not strictly pagan themes but
>definately inclined towards the mystical. 

Listen to this man! He knows what he's talking about! :-)

anthony
"I was there at the birth, out of the cloudburst, the head of the tempest...
murderer, murderer of calm... why did I go?"
--
Anthony Hobbs             the Bard                hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz    
OverPope, First Holy and Unreformed Church of Frozen Yoghurt - romantic poet - 
synth player extraordinaire - kate bush is goddess - hail Eris - praise "Bob"!
DISCLAIMER: I am not Romanian and was not head of the Securitate for 15 years.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com (Christopher M. Conway)
Subject: re: survey garbage
Reply-To: wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com
Organization: Prickly Wombat Enterprises
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:40:44 GMT


Look, this is getting to be a little bit much.

Slime though he may be, this "Chris Colvin" jerk deserves the right to
spout all the hateful bullshit he wants, as long as he's paying for it.
And, going through CompuServe, he's paying for it.

I don't like his drivel either. But it is not CompuServe's fault. Do you
hold the posterboard and marker manufacturers responsible for a hateful
sign? Or even the store where they were purchased?

Flood his mailbox. He has to pay to read his mail (I presume he has
to pay even if he DOESN'T actually read the message). Make it *expensive*
for him to continue behaving inappropriately. That's a reasonable (and
ethical) response. Silencing him by pressuring CompuServe is not ethical.

(And, as I'm sure a connection is about to be made-- my call for a Kodak
boycott is a result of a *corporate* action-- not individual-- silencing
someone else from posting.)

--
Boycott Kodak
--------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher M. Conway		| U*ix and C Guru
wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com      | Legalize Freedom!
wombat@juliet.ll.mit.edu        | Marrou/Lord in '92!
nfinit::wombat (DECnet internal)| (505)761-2413 DTN 552-2413
--------------------------------------------------------------
In no way should any statement, question, or other transferral
of information in this post should be construed in any way
as being an official communication of Digital Equipment
Corporation.
From: alizard@drc.UUCP (alizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: survey garbage
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 19:21:06 PDT
Organization: BLa Bla Bla Bla Bla BLa BLa Concord,Ca

If Compuserve refuses to do anything about Chris Colvin, (still
waiting for response), I think the logical response will be to mount
a nationwide boycott of Compuserve. It isn't as if C-serve was the
only on-line service, given the existence of MCI and America-On Line...
and hundreds of public access Internet systems. 

If we can't protect ourselves from the annoyance of one unwanted
individual here, how can we expect to get it together far enough to
defend ourselves from the attacks of the fundamentalist Xtian community
that Colvin is representing? 

Bright Blessings
A.Lizard
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Canada
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:55:36 GMT

bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth) writes:
: >
: > Is Canada any better?
: 
: Well, our crime rate is much lower.  Most people don't feel the need to carry
: a firearm... even in our largest city, Toronto.

Well, contrary to what many people believe, very few people here carry
firearms either - except policemen. Most people who are killed by firearms
are relatives of the killer - or people fighting over drug turf.

: But more importantly, Canada is a multicultural country, and as such has 
: written laws in its Charter of Rights to permit freedom of religion.  Heck,
: there's even been a debate in this country about our national anthem being
: sexist and religiously oriented... all this started due to our new Charter
: of Rights and Freedoms.  This is the same document that struck down our
: abortion law as being unconstitutional.

Too bad our constitution is being ignored. Hope yours doesn't follow the same
fate.

: We're not perfect, but with the major "morality" and "family values" squads
: running around in the US, we at least seem to have something to protect our-
: selves with (the Charter).

Actually, there are only a few of them. The problem is that they are noisy and,
right now, influential.

Bill
From: shaman@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (David Melton)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Military ritual?
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:27:57 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

It would seem fitting for the coast guard to serve in the role of Watcher,
outside the perimeter of the circle, 'guarding the borders'.

I think this has potential as a fun little ritual.  Would Athena and Aries
be appropriate deities to invoke?  Field rations could be used as wine and
cakes, if one wanted to carry the military symbolism even further.

Anyone else have any ideas?

========  
 I(  )I     David A. Melton                      
 I \/ I     shaman@mentor.cc.purdue.edu                                        
 I /\ I     Priest, Our Lady of the Hourglass Wiccan Church  
 I(  )I     Blest be thee and thine!
========
-- 
========  
 I(  )I     David A. Melton                      
 I \/ I     shaman@mentor.cc.purdue.edu                                        
 I /\ I     Priest, Our Lady of the Hourglass Wiccan Church  
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: bsherman@acsu.buffalo.edu (Brian C. Sherman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: free lionfood! (was: Celtic Cross)
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:26:48 GMT
Organization: UB

re: use of the fish in the united states:

I always liked Frank Zappa's quote about this:

"Whenever you see the fish, use the harpoon!"

-Brian    bsherman@acsu.buffalo.edu
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: republican delema
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:13:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <BtqDz0.FA2@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
> 
    [stuff deleted]
> Also, the electoral system in this country makes it very difficult for small
> party candidates in presidential elections.  To get *any* electoral votes, the
> candidate must win a whole state.  The last time we had a president who was not
> a Democrat or a Republican was in 1848, when the Whig party (the victorious
> one) was the standard conservative party of the time, as the Republican 
> party is now.  The U.S. has never had a president who was not one of the two
> big parties since the parties came into existence.  George Washington was the
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> *only* president the U.S. have *ever* had who was not part of the two big
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> parties.
  ^^^^^^^^
> Sad, but true.
> 

Actually, it's not true.  I believe Teddy Roosevelt was first elected
from a third-party candidacy - something like the "Bull & Moose" Party (!)
Can anyone verify this??

Richard
(Tuneweaver)

        "If you love that politician, pull the chain
         Send the world of woe and trouble down the drain
         It's the road to satisfaction, it's a natural reaction;
         If you love that politician, pull the chain"

         -- Words of wisdom from Tom Paxton
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else
Keywords: Civil Rights, Pagan
Date: 25 Aug 92 19:01:11 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <7519@monmouth.edu> c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON) writes:
>In article <2A9A618F.7671@orion.oac.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>
>>I don't know about this one.  Here is Uhmurka, people are fucking BORN
>>with guns, and we are an international joke in Europe because of it.
>>DOesn't make US any less susceptible to mind-control.  Hell, three
>>little TV commercials picked the last president of the country!
>>
>>Blessings,
>>Janis 
>	But there is a difference:  Here people are not used to working in
>military situations, and they are rarely carring weapons to equal the
>military's.  It has been often said that the first step in making a 
>dictatorship is taking away the people's ability to fight back.  I don't
>think it is the first step, but it IS an important one.

Dunno.  I remember Archie Bunker saying that the way to keep hijacking
from happening was to pass out guns to everybody onthe plane.  This
sounds similar.  If I need to keep a death-dealing device at my side at
alltimes to insure that I don't get my rights taken away, I'm slitting
my wrists right now.  The next life (if there is one) must be better
than having to live like that.

Blessings,
Janis

P.S.:  Our old friend John Emery e-mailled me just a few minutes ago
about my "Jesus saves sinners and redeems them . . . " post.  His
message?  "How about Jesus saves your soul?" or some such garbage.  The
guy doesn't give up!  

Mmm-mmm!  Nothing like drowning in xtian marshmallows.  I almosty lost
my appetite.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay)
Subject: Re: Canada (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 04:10:57 GMT

In article <3SEP199217294267@rosie.uh.edu> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.220149.8878@samba.oit.unc.edu>, shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett) writes...
>>Gee, I have a brother in Bellingham, WA...  I really like Vancouver.  Anyone
>>wanna look into a pagan diaspora to BC if the elections go badly in November?
>> 
>>/* almost serious, but wish I weren't */
>>-- 
>>Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
>Is Canada any better?

As a Canuck I think so... While this place is not perfect it is better in
some ways than the States.

1. We have a strong left wing party Federally (the NDP) the same party forms
   three provincial goverments.                                  

2. The current Conservative Prime Minister is extreemly unpopular, and the
   next Prime Minister will likely be Liberal (a centrist party).

3. You don't have to mortgage your house if you break a leg. Contrary to
   anti-medicare propaganda by your right wing, our system works. A few
   years back I had to have major reconstructive surgury on my jaw. This
   required a six-hour operation and 9 days in hospital. The total cost to
   me was CDN $36 (about US $32) adminstration fee for my hospital bed. Yes
   you read right! MSP payments are not that bad and if you're poor they are
   subsidised. When I was a student I paid the token amount of a $1 a year.
   (milage may vary by provence). BTW My provence's (B.C.) MSP charges family
   rates to gay/lesbian couples. 

4. Culturally Canada is a mosaic, not a melting pot. We have two official
   languages, soon to have aborigional self government enshrined in our
   new constitution, and Sikhi RCMP members get to wear turbans on duty.
   We have many vibrant ethic communities in this country.

5. As for crime Vancouver, BC and Seattle, Wa. are about the same size, yet
   your chances of getting killed are 5 times higher in Seattle a city
   which is safe by US standards. Last year there were about 650 murders in
   the entire country, pop. 25 million. We have tighter gun control comming in
   this October.

I woun't bore you any more. Like I guess I'm bit of a Canadian patriot. eh!

Peace be with you
	Tim the Canadian