HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: porterw@c4west.eds.com (Wayne Porter)
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Organization: EDS C4 West
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:40:34 GMT

clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:


>In article <1993Jan7.235227.26013@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes:
>>What kind of exams are used? I hope they don't use IQ tests....

>    I don't think they use IQ tests.   Perhaps someone whose gone to one of these
>schools can tell us.

>--
>Charles Lin
>clin@eng.umd.edu

I have a son who was accepted into a magnet program in Michigan befor we
moved to Seattle.  As parents new at this game called school (my son is
now in the first grade) we had no clue what a magnet program was.  His
kindergarten teacher was the person who recommended our son for testing.
Testing was open to any person in the district who wanted it.  The
testing included various academic tests plus an IQ evaluation by the
district phycologist.  I think it is important to know that the IQ test
was not the exclusive test, but was an essential part.  Other criteria
used was behaviour observations by the current teacher, and an extensive
questionare filled out by the parents.  This was perhaps the most
interesting part for my wife and I.  We found that some of the ways our
son was acting, was a clue to the level of academic talent he has.

After he was accepted into the program, the district had many meetings
for the parents about what this adventure was all about.  We were warned
about developing an "elitist" attitude about our son.  As it was
explained, he has a different way of doing things than other kids.  This
is what scares me the most when I hear people talking about the "smart"
kids, and how much better they have it.  These children have a special
need just as much as the mentally handicapped children in special ed
programs.  An academically talented child needs to have challenges and
be offered a method to explore the world at an increased pace.  The
repetition of a normal classroom, in a lot of cases, causes the child to
be disinterested in school, and often they are labeled "stupid".

In another post someone stated that they felt the PUBLIC FUNDS should
not be used for these progams.  I could not disagree more.  My son has
just as many needs as any other person, and I contribute to the public
school system in my community, so why shouldn't this program be funded
through the public funds.  Try to take away a special ed program from
public funding and hear the cries of discrimiation and such.  It is the
same thing for academically talented children.  They have a need for
special programs.

Well, enough of my soap-box-preaching.  I will be interested in the
upcoming posts.



--
     Wayne Porter -  porterw@c4west.eds.com or porterw@ug.eds.com
     
     "It's true, Hobbes, ignorance IS bliss! ... The secret to happiness 
      is short-term stupid self-interest"     - Calvin -
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 04:56:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.200126.13933@wam.umd.edu>, kckbxr@next16pg2.wam.umd.edu (Robin Hood) writes:

|> I didn't read the article, but your letter and the examples taken from the  
|> article indicate magnet schools used in a post-high school setting.   
|> There, I agree.  In high schools, in my opinion, it's a different story.   
|> In P.G. County, MD, there are a variety of magnet schools offerred.  I  
|> think that this is discriminatory at this age-level.  I don't see the need  
|> to concentrate on the magnet school programs on the hs-level when there  
|> aren't enough funds to educate the general public properly.

Only a very few magnet schools (they happen to be the most publicized ones for
this reason) are given extra funds. In general magnet schools are given the same
amount of funds or less (because you can pay the teachers less) yet they produce
much more in the way of education. On the basis of making the most of your
precious education dollars, since magnet schools presently funded at the same
levels as their regular counterparts produce a greater marginal return on each
education dollar, it would be best to give the magnet schools additional funds
until these marginal rates are the same.

Similarly, this argument would suggest that the huge amount of money pumped into
the system to help stupid people (often 3-4 times as much per student) would
be much better spent on everybody else.

|> Many high  
|> schools are limited as far as necessities are concerned (terribly old  
|> books, limited amounts of copy paper, resources, teachers, etc.) to the  
|> general public.  I don't see how the Dept. of Education can justify  
|> spending the general public's tax dollars on a few select individuals.  If  
|> these people want advanced education, then they should look for alternate  
|> means to funding it, but not the PUBLIC education budget!
 
|> Now, you may disagree with me and say well, what qualifies me to have an  
|> opinion on the subject.  Well, I graduated from one of the high schools in  
|> P.G. County, MD, in 1989 and am currently at the Univ. of Maryland.  I've  
|> since visited my high school and have seen how pathetic it looks.  I guess  
|> we can all thank his royal highness, Gov. of Baltimore, Willie Shaeffer  
|> for the millions of tax dollars in which the kids will never be able to  
|> have for education now, can't we?

Have you visited the magnet high school? How much additional money does it get
per student? Do you have any reason to believe it gets any or are you making
this up?

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Magnet Schools
From: forcer@netlink.cts.com (Nicholas Rahaghi)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 20:12:52 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA


In the later posts there were a couple of things mentioned that I would 
like to comment on.

It is true that Magnet Schools do recieve some extra public funding, but
that is not always the case.  I am a part of Gompers Secondary 
High-school, center for math, science and computers.  This school is 
located in San Diego CA.  Here are some facts about the school:

1: The High-School recieves $3,821 per pupil.  Normal schools average
   around $3,647
2: The school does not require any "IQ" tests. Rather, Anyone who has 
   expresses an interest and is recommended can go to the school. The
   transportation is provided via school buses to anyone in the city.
3: The school is created with this intent: To attract and provide smart
   kids with a program attractive enough to make them attend a school
   (excuse this next expression) in the crudiest neighborhood in S.D.
   Thus, the smart kids are to "rub" off on the local and presumably
   less interested group whichi would then become more interested.
4: The racial make-up of the school is extremly interesting:
   41.2% African American
   26.9% Hispanic
   13.6% White
   13.5% IndoChinese
   (These are the major ethnic groups)

Gompers, for me has been a wonderfull exprience. When I first attended it 
I must admit I was racially disturbed. Now, My views have changed 
completely. I have learned much about education in whole.

Gompers, used to be the best in Computer Science. Although we offer 
classes like C programming and such, things are going downhill for us.
Gompers went through a massive change. A new administration allowed the 
local kids to take "seminar" (Seminar kids are IQ tested.. Seminar is a 
special program completely unrelated to Magnet) without IQ tests on base 
of their racial confilts. This forced an exodus of over 1/4 of the staff!
The school was torn apart, and was broken up.


Which brings me to this controversy: Is a program like this right? So far 
we have discussed magnet programs created for smart kids. But we had a 
program that benefited both. Unfortunatly socio-economical problems 
teachers had with the set-up caused us to loose much of the "accredited" 
teachers. 

Can we mix Magnet programs with racial integration? Must American kids 
travel miles and put up with unnecessary problems to get an education 
they deserve? Must the poor and less fortunate not have a chance to learn 
because they live in bad neighborhood? Who wins?

All comments will be appreciated!


--                    
INTERNET:  forcer@netlink.cts.com (Nicholas Rahaghi)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!forcer
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
From: pinyan@goodlife.Corp.Sun.COM (Ann Pinyan)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: General info needed.....
Date: 5 Jan 93 00:51:20 GMT
Reply-To: pinyan@goodlife.Corp.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: goodlife.corp.sun.com


This may not be the ideal place for this posting so I welcome
suggestions - not flames =)

I'm looking for some information for a friend:

1) Does anyone know of any eduction programs that include "Methods of
Teaching..." classes?  I am specifically looking for a "Methods of
Teaching Theatre/Drama" class (within an education program).  My guess
is that any school that focuses on education and the arts might offer a
class such as this.  Any materials on this topic would also be great!

2) I would like to find out about seminars in my area in any of these
areas:  Education, Theatre, Music/Guitar/Composition/etc.  What
resources are available to me to find out what might be in my area over
the summer?

Thanks for your help!!
Ann
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Racism Defined ...
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 21:32:54 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@state.eng.umd.edu


In article <1993Jan11.180958.28227@fcom.cc.utah.edu>, val@news.ccutah.edu (Val Kartchner) writes:
>A few years ago, the president of the NAACP was in a controversy about racism.
>When confronted directly by reporters, his response was "I can't be a racist
>since I'm a minority."
>
>I disagree.  I hope that this isn't the view of the rest of the NAACP.
>
>Any opposing points of view?

    I think the viewpoint was just that because he is a minority, he
(for some reason) does not have power, and therefore can not suppress
others.   I don't think he means, by virtue of being a minority only,
he can not be a racist.   If this were the case, then one could simply
recall South Africa, and I think his mind would have been changed quite
quickly.  In any case, I also do not agree that minorities lack power.
If this were the case, then it would be senseless to have groups like
the NAACP because they would not be able to have any influence because
they are just a minority.   It's my opinion that some minorities and
the majority want to be racist, though I mean that in a positive
sense.   If racism means gaining more power and influence for a specific
race (which will almost always be perceived as being at the expense
of another race), then there are those who believe one should help
their own race.  That their own race is different and always will be
different from another race, and that there shouldn't always be an
attempt to integrate people so they act alike.   While differences
are nice and sometimes unavoidable, too many differences leads to
conflict.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:33:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.201925.5005@jlc.mv.com> john@jlc.mv.com (John Leslie) writes:
>hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

>> But having children travel to schools for special work should be
>> reduced; it is too costly, especially in time.  In this electronic
>> age, we can provide specialized classes without physical movement.

>   Obviously!

>   Now, what do we need to start doing it?

Not much.  Having the class assembled electronically and having the
students on audio only is well within present technology.  I do not
know how expensive having classes run as video conferences would be,
and there might be a bandwidth problem, but it is feasible.  I cannot 
see the problem as worse than picturephones; after all, we do not need
the pictures to be even as good as current television, except for 
possibly the presentation of computer information, which can be 
preplanned.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: pp200683@academ01.mty.itesm.mx (FRECH LOPEZ-BARRO MAGDALENA SOFIA)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Values and Higher education
Keywords: ethics,values,philosophy of life
Date: 9 Jan 93 00:33:59 GMT


    I'm conducting a research about the values that universities
teach in order to obtain a pedagogical model of this topic.

   My interest is to contact universities that have a formal program
for teaching values or courses about this topic.

  Please e-mail directly to me.

-------------------
  Lic. Sofia Frech
  Center for Strategic Studies
From: nayak@dirac.scri.fsu.edu (Krishna Nayak)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Racism Defined ...
Summary: the Power Factor
Keywords: Racism, Racialism, Power, etc.
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:29:45 GMT
            <dlhanson.8.724347118@nap.amoco.com> 
            <1742@rwja.umdnj.edu>
Reply-To: nayak@dirac.scri.fsu.edu (Krishna Nayak)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University


root@gnn.org (Michael Mussington) writes:
| Another answer: An attempt of an ethnic group or any member thereof to
| implement procedures or structures intended to subordinate member of 
| another ethnic group, based upon an assertion that differing ethnicity
| constitutes qualitative difference.


johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall) writes:
>Another answer: An attempt to
>implement procedures or structures intended to harm or subordinate 
>member of another ethnic group, based only on their membership 
>in said group.


the way I have always understood it, is that Racism is not simply about
making an attempt to oppress/subordinate a particular group.  

I can "attempt" to subordinate someone by attempting to beat them up.
But if I don't have the POWER to win the fight, I do not really constitute
racism, because I have not subordinated the enemy in any way at all...

Similarly, (taking a more commonly talked about situation), I would need
executive power, if I wanted to restrict a particular ethnic group from
being hired by my company.  without power, I am doing nothing.

I always thought that having the subordinating ideas in your mind
was one thing (racialism), and that to actually constitute RACISM
you would need the Power to implement your views.  

Please tell me if I am wrong, I have only recently started studying this...

--
Krishna Nayak  --  nayak@scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute

PS  I'm studying under Dr. William Jones   (Black Studies)
    in case you've ever read his 'Religion and Oppression' papers.

-- 
Krishna Nayak  --  nayak@scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
From: wayman@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Jeffrey Wayman)
Subject: Re: Smart kids (Was Re: Magnet schools)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1993 01:13:15 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1993Jan8.222319.19498@sequent.com> petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire) writes:
>
>Or what about this kid, in a school where (s)he is put down by his, peers,
>and in some cases by his parents, because he would not 'fit-in'. A kid
>I was a mentor to this summer, (est IQ over 135) didn't want to get good
>grades because he felt that he would not have any friends, and he did not
>want to be a 'nurd and geek' ,his words, Also he had to make a choise between
>basketball EVERYNIGHT of the week or homework, the school (big into
>sports) and his parents felt that his basketball was more important and
>these are direct observations and conservations with the school and his
>parents, not my opion.

I'm not entirely certain that extracurricular activities aren't as 
important as academics in the situation of a tremendously gifted child.
Of course, being pushed into something is another story.  A student
like this needs balance in his life more than anything.  Athletics
(that's what was mentioned here) can provide that along with other
experiences that can teach him as much as any classroom ever could.  if
the kid likes something other than academics, let him at it. 

>His math teacher was the only one who seemed to care, but she was new,
>and (I can't blame her) didn't want to risk loosing her job. Both his
>history and english teachers were basketball coaches.

The only one who cared about what?  

I think coaches get a bad rap about only caring that kids get into sports.
Granted, there will be those coaching zealots who only care that a kid
can play, but I'd guess 98% of the high school coaches have the kid's
interest in mind.  And yes, I thought about that statement!!  :-)

Jeff              wayman@lamar.colostate.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Dumb school administrators and parents
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 21:38:27 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@state.eng.umd.edu


In article <93Jan11.145434est.47766@neat.cs.toronto.edu>, tlai@cs.toronto.edu (Tony Wen Hsun Lai) writes:
>In article <C0pBLz.6M2@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> lamoran@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (L.A. Moran) writes:
>>Pete Lancashire gave us an example of a bright student who decided
>>to play basketball rather than putting all of his effort into
>>getting good grades. His school and his parents supported this
>>decision. Pete writes;
>>
>>     "I was a mentor to this summer, (est IQ over 135) didn't want
>>      to get good grades because he felt that he would not have
>>      any friends, and he did not want to be a 'nurd and geek',
>>      his words. Also he had to make a choice between basketball
>>      EVERY NIGHT of the week or homework, the school (big into
>>      sports) and his parents felt that his basketball was more
>>      important.
>[stuff deleted]
>>
>>I doubt that either the parents or the school said "to hell with
>>academics". If the student had been doing poorly I'm sure that
>>basketball would be dropped.
>
>Um, I think you missed article <1993Jan9.061912.6608@sequent.com>, where
>petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire) writes:
>[lots of stuff deleted]
>:His academics, he is currently getting D's and F's in math, english, and
>:history, sorry forgot to say this in the first post.

    I think the misunderstanding is plausible.   Pete said that
the kid had an IQ over 135, which implied (incorrectly) that the
kid was getting good grades.   In this case, what might have 
happened is that the teachers thought "he's not such a good student
anyway", and therefore concluded that it wasn't worth it to improve
the student's grades.   Too bad.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Smart kids (Was Re: Magnet schools)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 04:44:13 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Distribution: na
Originator: clin@feedback.eng.umd.edu


In article <Jan09.011315.62346@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, wayman@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Jeffrey Wayman) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.222319.19498@sequent.com> petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire) writes:
>>
>>Or what about this kid, in a school where (s)he is put down by his, peers,
>>and in some cases by his parents, because he would not 'fit-in'. A kid
>>I was a mentor to this summer, (est IQ over 135) didn't want to get good
>>grades because he felt that he would not have any friends, and he did not
>>want to be a 'nurd and geek' ,his words, Also he had to make a choise between
>>basketball EVERYNIGHT of the week or homework, the school (big into
>>sports) and his parents felt that his basketball was more important and
>>these are direct observations and conservations with the school and his
>>parents, not my opion.
>
>I'm not entirely certain that extracurricular activities aren't as 
>important as academics in the situation of a tremendously gifted child.
>Of course, being pushed into something is another story.  A student
>like this needs balance in his life more than anything.  Athletics
>(that's what was mentioned here) can provide that along with other
>experiences that can teach him as much as any classroom ever could.  if
>the kid likes something other than academics, let him at it. 

    There appears to be this traditional belief that all academics makes
a bad person.   While I sort of agree with this point of view, it also
seems like all athletics isn't necessarily good.   People admire those
who can accomplish in athletics, but deride those who do well in
academics.   How often do you hear "All that athletics is bad for the
boy, he should study more" and how often do you hear "All that studying
is bad for the boy, he should go out and play sports".   Making fun of
those who try to do well academically ends up resulting in a society where
it's OK to be dumb.   I agree that there ought to be some balance, but
it should work both ways.

>>His math teacher was the only one who seemed to care, but she was new,
>>and (I can't blame her) didn't want to risk loosing her job. Both his
>>history and english teachers were basketball coaches.
>
>The only one who cared about what?  

   I assume the only one who cared that this kid, who was potentially
bright, was, in effect, being discouraged from doing academics.  Imagine
if someone saw a good runner, or a good football player, or a good violinist.
Such a person might be persuaded quite heavily to continue to excel in
these activities.   Yet, it appears in this case that few people may
be encouraging this student to work on academics.   Of course, if the
kid is having problems relating to other students, that should be looked
into, but it could just as easily be due to other students not liking
the kid for not playing basketball.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: xanadu@cat.de (Michael Gardon)
Subject: MAN ROLAND PRINTING MACHINE
Organization: C.A.T. Kommunikations-System
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 00:56:32 GMT

I`am looking for people which are working on print-maschines from man roland
- sheet feed print division - to talk about problems and their solution.
If anybody like to talk with me about problems i think it will be a good
Idea to open a mailbox which gives solutions to all problems.
i believe it will be great to have friends around the world with the same
hobby.(just fun)
it would be also great to get a lot of ideas to settle down this project
i`am still waiting for you!

---
  Michael Gardon (xanadu@cat.de)                     
  C.A.T. Kommunikations-System, Frankfurt, Germany