From: michael@Canada.lsil.com (Michael Smith)
Subject: Re: Yamaha E1000 vs Sony TA-E2000ESD
Reply-To: michael@Canada.lsil.com
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation of Canada, Inc.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:35:43 GMT

In article 181248@lamisun6.epfl.ch, cheneval@lamisun6.epfl.ch (Yves Cheneval) writes:
>
>I'm considering buying a prologic equipment. I'm sure this subject has
>already been talked, but anyway I didn't find anything on the net, except
>a response from D. Altekruse about the snoy TA-E2000ESD:
>
>I own a medium quality amplifier, and I would like to upgrade step by step
>my equipment. The goal is to have a very good amplifier, but also to have
>a good Prologic equipment. It means that:
>1) I want to be able to use only my 2 main speakers when listening to a CD,
>   with a sound path as short as possible. (I don't want to go through
>   a full prologic decoder BEFORE going to my main amp, etc...)

It is typical to configure your DSP/Pro-Logic box in a tape loop from your
pre-amplifier.  I.e. you use the tape output on your pre-amp as the "source" for
your signal to your DSP box, and use the tape input to hook the DSPed signal
back to your pre-amp.  It is also possible to hook up the DSP between the
pre-amp output and the amplifier input, but this implies that your DSP box will
"see" the effects of the balance, tone, loudness, etc. controls on your pre-amp.
I don't know if all DSP boxes would accurately process anything but a line-level
unmodified signal.

In the DSP E-1000, there is an "Effects On/Off" button to drive the input directly
to the output.  Since I have my E1000 in a tape loop, I can also hit the
Tape Monitor button on my NAD and experience the same thing.

>2) I want also to use the prologic equipment at its very best, giving me
>   the fewest quality loss in the surround and other speakers. 

For the best of the Pro-Logic decoders, take a look at Fosgate and Lexicon.  Although
there will be some net dessenters who don't think that these are the "best", I doubt
anybody would disagree that they are among the best.  Yamaha certainly also makes an
excellent Pro-Logic decoder (it was actually developed jointly between Yamaha and
Dolby).

>
>3) I'm trying to minimize cost, but I`m ready to pay a good price,
>   if you can HEAR the difference.

This, above all, is the only way to buy stereo equipment.  With this thought in mind,
when you do audition equipment, make sure that you listen to boxes that are above
your price range.  Then, when you listen to less expensive boxes, try to determine
what the difference is.  Once you know what the "best" is, compromising between
budget and quality is a little easier

>   
>So, looking at the specs of integrated prologic amp, such as
>the Yam A1000 or Kenwood 8500, I didn't find anything good, because the
>preamp are not good enough.

Same reason I avoided the A1000 - also, there main amps are very poor.  I'd just
end up not using them and wasting the money for the extra amps.

I never heard the Sony unit (only Sony products I like are their high-end VTRs
(i.e. VCRs for consumer folks)), so I'll limit my answers to the Yamaha box:

>So, my questions are:
>1) Is the Sony really able to mix dsp and prologic ?
>2) Is the Sony decoding of Pro-logic is a) worse b) same c) better than Yam?
>3) Is the Yam able to STORE personal settings, and if yes, how many of them?

In the Yamaha, there are 12 major modes of operation. These are (from memory):

	Hall A/B
	Hall C/D
	Live Concert/On Stage
	Church
	Roxy/?
	Anaheim Stadium/?
	Celler Jazz Club/?
	Rock Concert/Opera
	TV Theater/TV Drama
	Adventure Movie (70 mm)/General Movie (35 mm)
	Pro-Logic/Enhanced Pro-Logic

I'm missing one, don't remember which.  

For each pair of settings (except for the "church" mode which only has one option),
you can store a set of parameters.  For some modes, there are 5 or 6 parameters, while
others only have one or two.  None of the parameters has a tremendous difference
in the perceived sound, they are all quite subtle.  (The church mode's reverberation
decay time is probably the most dramatic.  It ranges from 1 second to 5 seconds, quite
a difference here.  Once again, those numbers are from memory, so no flames please!)

It took a fair bit of playing to determine what the different parameters actually
accomplish in terms of the perceived sound.  The manual gives a very poor explanation
of these terms, its really up to you to determine what the "best" parameters are.
This is a very subjective task (unless any other E1000 owners have other ideas?)

>4) Are the two extra channels in Yam worth it ? Are they missing on the Sony ?

The two extra channels on the E1000, I believe, are just duplicates of the rear
channels.  Note that I haven't verified this!  The Dolby Pro-Logic specification
only defines four channels:

	Left Main
	Right Main
	Center
	Rear

Although there are two rear speakers, they are mono.  The E1000 can mix the
two front effect channels into your front speakers.  I haven't heard much of a
difference with this option compared with all 7 speakers.

>5) Is it worth to buy the sony, considering you have to buy an amplifier for
>   surround and center channels ???

If it sounds better, and you can afford it.....

>6) According to the Sony doc, there are more parameters on the sony than on
>   the yam. Are they useful or only toys ???

Given that the Yamaha's parameters have very subtle effects, I can't imagine
adding more on the Sony would be too useful.  Probably just toys.

>7) If I'm buying the sony, all inputs will go throughout it. Is there a 
>   possibility to bypass all settings? I have seen the source direct
>   switch, but it seems that analog sources are going through the ad-da
>   circuits. So what does exactly the source direct switch ????
>   
>   
>To answer these questions, I'm looking for someone who has tried the two
>units, and know them well. Here in Switzerland, I wasn't able to find anyone
>knowing the answers, because prologic decoding is only beginning here. 
>And if you want to know the luck you have, let me tell you the prices of
>these equipment in Switzerland:
>Yam A-1000: 1340 US $
>Yam E-1000: 1070 US $
>Sony TA2000: 1171 US $

In Canada, the E1000 is $900 (call it $800 U.S.) and the A1000 is about two to three
hundred more than that.

>
>What do you think ? I'm sure someone in US could make a fortune by selling
>equipment using Europe standard (220 V 50 Hz) with US prices.... 
>
>Thanks a lot for the answerers... 
>
>Yves Cheneval (cheneval@lamisun.epfl.ch)

I guess the final question that you failed to ask, is yes, I do enjoy my E1000
very much!  Its an excellent piece of equipment, that allows endless playing
with settings and adjusting of equipment.  The center channel has a 6 band
+/- 6 dB EQ for tuning your center speaker to your left/right main speakers.
This is very useful if you're like me and can't put a KEF speaker balanced on
top of your TV, you'll probably end up compromising with your center channel.
There is quite a religous debate going on here as to whether its better to
compromise and use a lower quality center channel (as compared to your left/righ
mains) or to use the Phantom Pro-Logic mode that doesn't use the center channel
what-so-ever.

If you have any additional detailed questions on the E-1000, feel free to e-mail
them to me.


---
     Michael Smith - Chipset Design Engineer

Phone: (416) 620-7400         michael@canada.lsil.com
Fax:   (416) 694-5005

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