From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormonism
Date: 28 Dec 92 20:39:01 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <0eZm02QL30Y201@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>,
 agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
> geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
>> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:

>>> If it is a problem determining when the person is speaking as
>>> a prophet, then you have a much more serious problem.  How then
>>> are you going to know when he's speaking for God or of himself in
>>> telling you what is correct?  
>
>> That is why every person has the responsibility of receiving
>> confirmation directly from God about these things.  This not only
>> applies to utterances of the Mormon prophet, but the Bible.
> 
> If this is true, then the person receiving the "confirmation"
> has a more direct connection to God than the person giving the
> revelation.  Right? 

Maybe.

> Therefore, the need for a living prophet ceases.  

Wrong.  There are two little things (maybe they are really just
one) that get in the way of this: 1. Stewardships and 2. Lines of
authority.

It is heirarchal in nature.

> I mean, when a prophet says something that is suppose to
> be from God, either it IS from God, or either it ISN't from God. 
> It shouldn't have to be left up to each individual to decide or
> get "confirmed" of it.  

Why not?  It seems to me to have great potential in building faith.
Or isn't faith one of the essentials any more?

> Either it IS or either ISN'T from God.  What happens if the LDS
> prophet gives a "revelation" and two different LDS members get
> different "confirmations"?  Who then is right?  They both cannot
> be, because either what the prophet said is from from God or it
> isn't.  

Well, it's like this.

One might say that I have been given a stewardship over my life. 
Therefore, I may by right seek out and receive revelation and
inspiration from God about my stewardship and how I should manage
it.

My father has been given a stewardship over his family.
Therefore, it is his right to seek out and receive revelation and
inspiration from God about everything in his stewardship.

My bishop has been given a stewardship over everyone in his ward.

My stake president has been given a stewardship over everyone in
his stake.

My Area Presidency has been given a stewardship over everyone in 
their area.

The President of the Church has been given a stewardship over the
whole church, and the whole world.  Therefore, it is his right to
seek out and receive revelation and inspiration from God about
everything pertenant to the management of his stewardship.

Back on an individual level, I have a right to receive either the
same (or similar) revelation, or at least a confirming witness
from the Holy Ghost that instuction given to me from those that
have stewardship over me represents God's will, and not merely
the steward's will.

The interesting thing about the Holy Ghost is that not only will
he confirm the truth of something to an individual, but also he
will frequently enlighten the person regarding ways they can
appropriately act upon or implement what they have received.

On the other hand, I do not have a right or priviledge to receive
revelation or inspiration for someone that is not part of
stewardship, nor for those that have stewardship over me.  

The most I could do would be to go to the appropriate stewrad
(usually a bishop or stake president) and express my concerns
regarding the matter and ask them to seek out the will of the
Lord regarding the matter.  If it is still not part of their
stewardship, they can take the matter to the next appropriate
steward over them.  And so on, and so on, until the matter makes
it to the top and/or is resolved.  The "Word of Wisdom" (D&C 89)
is an example of this process which was initiated by Emma Smith. 
In fact most of the Doctrine and Covenants is a result of this
process in one form or another.

> Are you telling me that ALL LDS members get the same
> "confirmation" when the prophet speakes?

No.
Some don't seek out a confirming witness.
Some receive a confirming witness.
And some may even receive the same revelation that the prophet
did, as their confirming witness.

> If the prophet IS a true prophet, then why cannot he determine
> before he gives a revelation if it is true or not?

The Holy Ghost manifests himself by degrees.  At one end we would
have a vague impression or inclination.  And at the other end, we
would have a full blown vision of God.

The problem comes in that we are currently fallible beings.  We
sometimes mistake our own desires for the subtle promptings
of the Holy Spirit.  That is the reason for the backup system, or
the checks and balances in the system.

> And the next logical question is, if he cannot, then how can
> you?  I mean, he is the prophet, right?

I can't, 100% of the time, and I doubt anyone else can either
(besides those that have a perfect knowledge, like God the
Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost).

But if the prophet tells me something is from God, 
and I feel in my heart that it is,
and many others also feel that it is, 
then we can be more and more certain that it truely is/was from
God.

If I have no such feeling and seek out a confirmation and receive
none or a negative one, and many others also have no such feeling
and seek out a confirmation and receive none or a negative one,
then we can be more and more certain that the person was
expressing their own opinion, speculation, ideas, philosophy,
personal world-view, etc..

This is known as "the law of common consent" in Mormonese.
It requires, and builds faith.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan