HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Subject: Re: Gaelic v. Irish?
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 08:03:53 GMT

In article <711487586.F00002@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
> Medieval Gaelic is no different from modern Irish - in fact, probably less
> different - than medieval English is different from modern English.
	Huh? Don't be silly!
	In Ireland you actually have to do some of the Medieval Irish epics
on your Leaving Certificate Irish course (notably Toraiocht Dhiarmad agus
Grainne). It is *quite* different. For example:
	* The verb forms are completely different
	* There are at least 7 dialects of old Irish
	* There are tenses in old Irish that don't exist in modren Irish
	* Spelling varies widely
	* There is no "h"
	* The grammatical rules are different
	etc.
	A lot of people fail to realise that Modren Irish has changed
considerably in the last century. The Conradh na Gaeilge (The Gaelic
League) started promoting the Irish language that had been repressed
for generations. When the Irish government made Irish the first language
of this country the set up a department to produce a "standard" Irish
language. The Munster dialect was chosen and definitive dictionaries
produced. Diatrical dots were replaced by trailing "h", and a plethora
of silent letters removed. They even tried to introduce a "v" but this
has since fallen out of usage.
	Any textbook or dictionary on "Modern Irish" you pick up from 
this century will be on our government's "Standard Irish". You can find
University Texts on other current and period dialects but these are
so sparse I can only recommend Standard Irish as the "Irish of Choice"
for those with Irish personas :-). It is certainly much easier to learn.

	This should be the definitive answer to the "Gaelic v. Irish"
thread. For those of you still not satisfied please post to our Chatelain,
Sean Mac an Gabha (Donal Cunningham), dcnnnghm@unix1.tcd.ie. He is a
native speaker of Irish (I warn you that he is a fan of Donegal Irish).

			Seamus

    %	   Seamus Donn		Eva de Barri            Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
   %|%	   Jo Jaquinta		Cathy Barry             Lesley Grant
/\\ | //\  jaymin@maths.tcd.ie	cbarry@maths.tcd.ie	lgrant@maths.tcd.ie
  =====			44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.
   /|\			for the Shire of Lough Devanree (Lough Damh an Ri'gh)
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Moderation (was pentagrams)
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:01:50 GMT
Organization: Organization???

I have a couple of minor nits to pick here.
 
Alison MacDermot (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>
>The swastika has apparently always been a symbol, too (as opposed to a 
>decorative element). 
 
It may have been symbolic in some cultures for quite a while, but it does 
have a far longer history as a purely decorative element.  Just as a for 
instance, I recall seeing flyfots (both left handed and right handed) in 
among a variety of other geometric figures carved in the mantle of a 
friend's fireplace, in a house built in the US in the 1900s or 1910s.
 
>...Nazi sympathizers don't tend to be compatible with the left-of-center, 
>tolerant attitudes the SCA members tend to express. 
 
Tolerant, certainly, but left of center?  It seems to me that the 
majority of SCA folk who've given mundane politics and/or political 
economy much thought don't fit into anybody's pigeonholes.
 
>... pagans ... are often perceived as evil by Christians (in and out of 
>the Society).
 
I recall several years ago reading some remarks on wicca made by a 
gentleman who was, I believe, president of the united churches of  
christ in the US.  What he basically said was that wicca is a 
serious and thoughtful religious movement that does a good job of 
meeting the spiritual needs of its adherents, and that he considered 
it a welcome addition to the rich tapestry of American religious 
experience.  I have never met a Christian, Jew, or Moslem in the 
Society (including a few who are mundane clergy) who did not seem 
to take basically the same perspective on paganism in general.  
Again, tolerance is a strong value in the SCA.
 
>... as someone else mentioned, the Italian fascists are not considered
>evil, nor are the WWII Japanese, despite atrocities committed by both (ask
>a Korean about the Japanese sometime). Therefore, their associated symbols
>(the sun disc/rising sun and the fasces) are not perceived as evil, and not
>banned. 
 
I don't think that was the point the poster who mentioned the associated 
charges intended to make.  The point was, I think, that these charges 
are not percieved by the public at large as being closely tied to those 
political movements; movements which are, I think, broadly considered evil.   

Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: NEEDED: Address of Brian of Leicester, Rhydderich Hael
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 01:36:48 -0500

I urgently need to contact Brian of Leicester, who resides (or at least did as
of last Pennsic) in Rhydderich Hael (or however you spell it).  Would someone
PLEASE email me his phone number, email address, snailmail address, or any other
way to get in touch with him, or pass along my voice phone number, which is
(703) 370-6508?  Thank you VERY much in advance....
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Steward's office restructuring.
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:03:07 GMT
Organization: Progress Software Corp.

I guessed what I thought "servicemark registration" is (fairly
accurately, to judge from other peoples reactions, and from the little
research I did here at work.  Arval asked:

  That's basically what I guessed, too, but what has it got to do with the
  SCA?  What do they want to register?

Herewith, the section of a letter I penned during lunch today, to the
Steward:

  "Among the items on the list of future tasks, is "Coordinating
  servicemark registration". Are we planning on making our name, our
  Order names and so on controlled service marks? This seems like a
  very proto-litiginous act, if true, and I'm wondering what the
  motivation for it is. After all, even if we can register that
  protection for free, cases of this sort are decided based on whether
  we have consistently acted to preserve our claim to those servicemarks.
  Are we prepared to litigate whenever some third party uses our
  servicemarks, regardless of cost? I could easily be convinced this
  is a good idea, but I'd love to know our reasoning. Was there some
  incident which motivated this course of action?"

As you may expect, I will post her answer to the Rialto when I receive it.
It should take at least a week or two, and may not arrive until after
I return from Pennsic.  Sorry about that.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shick@europa.asd.contel.COM (steve hick)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:33:44 GMT

Lothar (and rec.org.sca),

There is much information (unfortunately mostly not transcribed) on the use of 
sword and buckler.  It does appear in tourney boks of the 14th c with ladies 
looking on, indestinguishable from mounted combat in armor (as far as the 
setting).  There are numerous marginal pictures in various romances, eg The 
Romance of Alexander (ca. 1340) which show this.  It has been speculated that 
these sceens show 'squires' training.  There are also other mariginalia which 
show tonsured men (students?) fighting in the same form.  The earliest extant 
fencing manual (Tower Fechtbuch ca 1300) describes the seven guards used in the 
style, and shows a scholar (prester) instructing a student (scholaris).

Hopefully Njal, Patri, Jeff Singman and myself will be able to hold another 
symposia at Pennsic on "Fencing from Period Sources".  Come by.

Strykar

Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 10:36:15 -0400 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Basic Courtesy

Good gentles --

Steven of the Grove posted a "clever" put-down of a song recently shared
with the Rialto.  The body of that post appears below:

18-Jul-92 silly filk (authenticity) by Stephen Whitis@f4229.n12 

   >>  Hope you enjoyed.
   >>                                                                
   >> Written by me on this the ninth day of the month of July                 
   >> Christian von Jauregg                                      
   >> (mka Michael McAfee)                                                     
 >Thanks...  This may be useful in convincing people why Filk has no
 >place in the SCA.
 > 
 >Stephen of the Grove

Might I suggest that Stephen's missive may be useful in convincing 
people that courtesy (of even the most basic sort) _does_ have a 
place in the S.C.A. and the Rialto?

It is one thing for arguments and debates to occur.  Those, I welcome.
But "wave of the hand" dismissals in public rather than helpful critiques
or thoughtful comments should not be the norm in this forum or the Society,
in my (less than) humble opinion.

Is there any consensus on this issue?  

Do we want to discourage outright discourtesy?

I welcome further discussion of the question.
  
By the way, where do our _modern_ notions of courtesy come from?
(Since I feel that the problem cited above is with breaking 
 modern notions of courtesy, not necessarily period models.)

Many thanks, good friends -- Bertram

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
------------------------- PREME * Press On * PREME ----------------------
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."
From: Leonard.Erickson@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 25 Jul 92 14:21:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712156524.F00002

In a message to Marco Landin <07-25-92 16:38> Suze Hammond wrote:

SH>  ML>  From: mfactor@taronga.com (Marco Landin)
SH>  ML>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
SH>  ML>  <1992Jul24.112356.15216@agora.uucp>
SH>  ML>
SH>  ML>     Milord doth have ...[etc]...
SH>
SH>  Well, ahem...not milord certainly! Senora to you sir!  :-)
SH>
SH>  [Much about symbols and Easter bunnies omitted...]
SH>
SH>  I *wish* that we could make it possible that any symbol *only*
SH>  represented what the bearer intended. We can't, sad though that is.
SH>  (And gimme a break with the bunnies! :-)
SH>
SH>  I am in a similar situation, in fact, here in An Tir, where the Nazis
SH>  have decided we have the Promised Land and they are going to take it
SH>  from us...
SH>  Local racist Skinheads have adopted a symbol very dear to my heart,
SH>  the Celtic cross (not the one in the PicDic, no feet on the bars..).
SH>  To me it represents the ancient Celtic connection between St. Columba
SH>  and the eventual emergence of modern Presbyterianism. But I'd be an
SH>  ass to fly it from anything but a church tower any more... I hate to
SH>  think the kinds of "friends" it would attract, much less the
SH>  enemies... and what my neighbors would believe my sympathies were!

If that cross is the one I *think* it is, the *racist* Skinheads borrowed 
it from the KKK! (I add the qualifier because there are a lot of skinheads 
who have *no* use for the racists, and a *large* dislike for what they've 
done to the image of skinheads)

Even if it *isn't*, there *is* a cross that the KKK uses. So I tend to feel 
that if a symbol (or related symbols) are being used for both "good" and 
"bad" things, then the solution is not avoiding it. Rather we need to make 
sure that the *good* stuff gets publicity. 
 
From: Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rattan Alternatives?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 18:54:14

>Recently, the Ansteorran Marshallate approved a new material for
>construction of (thrusting only) Spear shafts.  This material is called
>fiberglass, but I've been told that it's really called "poltruded resin."
>Specific authorization for this particular weapon is required, and each
>fighter must have the authorization noted on his/her fighter card.

As I understand it, Ansteorra is the last kingdom to approve the
use of the fiberglass spears.  (Pultruded fiberglass.)  This ruling
isn't quite as recent as all that.  We have been using fiberglass
for probably a year and a half or two years now.

>What new materials are under consideration as alternatives to rattan for
>striking weapons?

None that I know of, but would be suprised if there really are not
any being expirimented with.  Are you having trouble locating
rattan?

>I believe that the armor and weapon regs for Ansteorra allow for
>non-rattan striking weapons like axes and maces, but hafts and handles are
>still mostly rattan.

In Ansteorra, the hafts of axes, maces and glaives must be of
rattan, but other materials may be used as a part of the head.
Other approved materials for the head include tape, resilient
padding (such as foam, rubber, etc.) and "Other non-brittle
non-splintering natural or man-made materials approved by the
Sovereign and the Earl Marshal.  Note that metal may never be used
in the construction of any head."  (Quote from the Participants
Handbook, Kindgdom of Ansteorra.)

I saw you also posted a question about crossbows.  Do you have a
copy of the Complete Participants Handbook?  If not, contact your
local KM.  If that doesn't work, try you regional KM (Baron
Thorkel, if Greywood is in the Cental region.)  If that fails,
contact *me* and I'll mail you one.

>Wolfric Thorinsson, Shire of Greywood, Ansteorra
>                   (Mundanely Nacogdoches, Texas)

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Twinkie names
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1992 21:42:12

Nicholas said...
>>However, a twinkie name should not be given to or used to refer to a
>>person without that person's consist.  This would imply justifiably      
>>constitue an insult.  e.g. calling John of the Great Spear as John the   
>>Fool.                                                                    
>                                                                          
>Oh, dear, wait til Stephen reads this -- another person speaking          
>ill of fools.

Huh? <grog> I'm awaAKe... wha.. Oh, speaking I;'ll of food are
thEy?  We'll see aboUt that#

Stephen
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Digest V5 #512
Date: 30 Jul 92 04:53:59 GMT
Organization: Old, used cleric

In article <9207290250.aa16274@mc.lcs.mit.edu> rich@uniwa.uwa.EDU.AU (Paul Rich  Education) writes:
>What scope is there for freemasonic rituals in SCA affairs -- or is
>there something currently going on of which I am unaware?

	I'll bite on this one -- it's close enough to my hobby horse to
be comparable.

	Answer -- very little scope.

	While the Craft is not a religioon, per se, it isa, by
definition, a secret society, and performing its rituals in public would
not be kosher -- and might be looked down upon by the Brotherhood of the
Lodge.
	Ordinary public rituals (cornerstone laying, funerals, etc.)
should not be a problem, except that:

	1)	The Society hardly ever lays cornerstones;
	2)	Burials are usually not Society affairs;
	3)	Masonry can not be documented by independent sources
		to much before Jacobean times -- at least in its modern
		Lodge form.  (i.e. it is Out Of Period).

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com 		      UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Subject: Re: Moderation (was pentagrams)
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 07:34:39 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles send his greetings!

Hadrian writeth:
> KICK THE BUMS OUT OF OFFICE.

This is a commendable sentiment, but, to overstate the case,
CORPSES CAN'T VOTE.

The Supreme Court of the USA has ruled that flag burning is a protected
right.  Suppose you want to make a point.  You decide to show you value
your freedom, by burning a flag in public.  You may want to do this first
on Harvard or Berkeley campus, and then move to increasingly conservative
places until you get the right level of reaction.

If you were to burn a flag in a small town in the South, you might be
attacked by a dozen local patriots, who would beat you senseless with
the police watching.  When you were almost dead, the police might
disperse them, arrest you for inciting a disturbance of the peace,
and take you to the hospital.  They might then be unable to identify
any of the people who assaulted you.  You probably can't afford to
sue for damages against the state, city, or police force - their
budgets are much larger, and the local juries are probably biased
in their favour.

Just because you have rights does not mean that you can exercise them
without discretion whenever and wherever you want.

Laurel's ruling is just this: the SCA exercising its discretion on a
similar issue.

If the popular association between the SCA and Satanism is allowed to
grow any stronger, more people will lose their jobs because of SCA
membership, more members will have their children taken away from them,
the SCA will need to pay more for insurance, and have fewer sites
willing to accept us.  The BoD, quite reasonably, wishes to avoid this.

Nota bene: We COULD fight all these things in court, but the budget
forces the SCA to pick its fights VERY carefully.

The correct response is to try to change things SLOWLY.  In the case
of the pentacle, it is mostly the Wiccans and other pagans who need to
convince the public that they are legitimate, non-evil religions.  The
rest of us should do our best to support this effort - but not by
painting pentacles on our doors as an exercise in civil rights.

In the case of the fylfot or swastika, I have difficulty imagining
that anybody would want this symbol in their device, unless they were
supportive of neo-Nazi policies, and the most fundamental of these
policies appears to be: hate the different.  While this is certainly
a common medieval attitude, I prefer to keep it out, precisely because
the alternative would be to let them pressure out all the Jewish, black,
hispanic, oriental, pagan, and gay members, a little at a time, and I
think that the latter groups are more valuable to the SCA than the
former.
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 12:14:35

     Lynn/Lin wrote:

 LC> > Just because people do a thing, it does not automatically become an
 LC> appropriate thing to do.  Filking of modern tunes is an abomination and
 LC> if Stephen wants to

 LC> My memory of Christian Juaregg's (sp? sorry) original 
 LC> post was that it contained a clear leading disclaimer 
 LC> labelling the work as (paraphrasing) "Out of Period, Silly Filk and
 LC> if you don't like that stuff, please push 'n' now."  How much
 LC> more polite could the young man have been?  How much more
 LC> egregiously unkind and/or rude can others be than to disregard
 LC> that effort AND the clear good nature of the work?

 Bweeeet!
 A gentle reminder that the issue being discussed is "the appropriateness
 of filk in the SCA", not "the appropriateness of filk on the Rialto".
 Resume play....


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Steward's office restructuring.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:56:29 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  I asked if anyone knew what "Coordinating
servicemark registration" means, and Tibor guessed:

> A servicemark is like a trademark: a registered name used for conducting
> a particular business.

That's basically what I guessed, too, but what has it got to do with the
SCA?  What do they want to register?

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Photography has its benefits
Date: 27 Jul 92 04:11:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712341446.F00001

Gr>  From: graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon)
Gr>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Gr>
Gr>  > Their photo albums were invaluable in showing us what
Gr>  could
Gr>  > be accomplished in the way of garb, arts, etc, as well as giving a
Gr>  glimpse
Gr>  > of what events and pennsic might be like.

Gr>  as for 'obtrusive modernities' - you don't care about the same things
Gr>  that I care about.

Now I have a slightly different slant on this than either the all fun social 
medieval theme club group or the we ought to be recreating *everything* 
straight out of the textbooks group.

I would, quite frankly, like to see ALL modern conveniences done away with 
at events. I'd like to see us pack everything in with mules, like the 
trapper brigades. (I am *not* interested in re-creating specific historic 
events, unlike the Civil War folks, my interest is everyday life.) I'd like 
us to spend a great deal more time trying to figure out *why* people did 
what they did in period...how they were like and unlike us as people.

This would result in a club of about a thousand people or so.

It would also not be the SCA.

Given that I *also* like the SCA (as a cultural entity) I find the constant 
wrangling over what goes and what doesn't to be a waste of bandwidth.

This is rather like having the village visited by the yearly wool fair. We 
have our own ways of doing things, and then there are these raucus visitors 
who don't do them quite our way, while claiming they are every bit as good 
as us.

We have the choice of going down to the fairgrounds and visiting with them 
and looking at their wares, and we have the choice of sitting at home 
getting the flax retted and keeping the kinder out of mischief.

I prefer to go to the fair.

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com