HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: motto@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto)
Subject: Re: Donahue: Options for Kids
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 20:35:23 GMT

In article <C0IEDr.L7K@cscns.com> rks@cscns.com (Dancing With synergy) writes:
>As an adult "unattached child", I can only say that I wish we would
>have been nearly as enlightened in the late '50s and early '60s when
>I was growing up. When I was a kid, no one really recognized abuse
>as abuse unless it was flagrant, overtly physical and obvious. Emotional
>abuse was not considered a problem -- not really. 
>
(...)
>//gisle

Gisle,

I hear where you are coming from.  I feel sad that you were so badly
mistreated as a child.  I hope you are healing from those wounds.

I know a woman who realized that she did not want to be a mother and
gave up two infants for adoption shortly after their birth.  She
loved them enough to want better for them than she felt she could give.
Now she is working as a nanny and taking care of two children on a
part-time basis.  She has a wonderful relationship with them, but says
that she prefers this to being a mother because she doesn't feel "trapped"
into being responsible for them 24hrs/day, 365 days per year.

It is hard for me to understand that sometimes, because the thing in
my life that brings me the greatest joy is the love of my children.
For me, the breaking of that bond is painful to even think about.
Yet my own upbringing was cold and distant.  The very idea of me
climbing onto my mother's bed to snuggle her in the morning the
way my children do would have been rejected out of hand.

We can make our lives different from what they were, and that is our
greatest hope for change in the world and an end to abuse.  You
are certainly right about kids knowing instinctively what they need;
my children constantly let me know what they need and want, and I've
learned a lot from them -- I just have to be careful not to reject
their communications (verbal, emotional and otherwise).

As survivors, we have to be strong and brave enough to parent ourselves
and meet the needs and treat the wounds that remain, and to learn to
do it better as we teach the generation that will follow us.

Mary Otto


Newsgroups: alt.support
From: chris@aquarius.cc.ucf.edu (Chris Maukonen)
Subject: Re: Letter Got Wrong Results!
Followup-To: alt.support
Organization: Univ. Central Florida
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:42:21 GMT

Well, I am on about the same terms with my family. All I can say is not to
blame youself. I think you did the right thing and if your parrents chose
not to see the reality of the situation there is nothing you can do about
it.
The trueth is always painfull and it is only natural that they would deny
it
so as not to go thru the pain. I know, I have done the same thing and am
only now begining to go thru it.

Good Luck

Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Maukonen
Sr Systems Programmer     "While Eyore frets and Piglet hesatates and 
UCF Computer Services       Rabbit calculates and  Owl pontifacates 
chris@aquarius.cc.ucf.edu              Pooh just is ........"
Newsgroups: alt.support
From: rks@cscns.com (Dancing With synergy)
Subject: Donahue: Options for Kids
Organization: Community_News_Service
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 00:22:35 GMT

Anyone see Donahue today? It was a very heartening show for a few 
different reasons. 

The show involved a mother who voluntarily surrendered her child for
adoption. She recognized that she could not bond to the child for a 
variety of reasons. (She was hospitalized for manic-depression on a 
few occasions.) The child was acting out consistently and was obviously
unhappy. The mother admitted that the situation was not working and
legally forfeited her rights to the child so that he could be raised
in a family where he is happy, doing well in school and not having
the emotional problems he experienced while living with his biological
mother. 

I felt personally heartened by the experience because I think it is
evidence that we are finally coming around to believing that children
are not possessions, not objects, but real people with their own needs
and wants. 

As an adult "unattached child", I can only say that I wish we would
have been nearly as enlightened in the late '50s and early '60s when
I was growing up. When I was a kid, no one really recognized abuse
as abuse unless it was flagrant, overtly physical and obvious. Emotional
abuse was not considered a problem -- not really. 

I recognize that if my mother had been brave enough, willing enough
to admit that she was not capable of being a mother, I would have spent
a lot less money on therapy, would probably have had a lot less time
spent dealing with my own emotional problems and would have had a more
productive life. I would now be able to truly bond to other people instead
of only knowing how to go through the motions -- wondering all the while
was the big hubbubb is about to begin with. If I had been permitted to
live with another family who would have shown affection, cared enough
to put some structure in my life -- in short, to have *parented* me, 
things would have been very different. 

Both this case and the case of Gregory K. (who 'divorced' his biological
mother) give me hope that kids will have a better future when they
have some empowerment in their own lives. Kids *instinctively* know
what is best for them and certainly know when they are not really 
loved. 

Any thoughts? Did anyone see the show? (I have lots of time to watch
TV since I have been layed off for a while.) 

//gisle


Xref: sparky alt.support:1598 soc.motss:56206
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Newsgroups: alt.support,soc.motss
Subject: People thinking you're gay or straight when you're not...
Date: 12 Jan 1993 17:01:10 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: carina.unm.edu

In article <1iungcINNn06@rave.larc.nasa.gov> carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) writes:
>....
>Along other lines, but still connected to the thread of who one is seen
>with.  I've mentioned a close friend who is a gay man on this group before.
>He used to be a bit uncomfortable being seen too often with me because
>he was afraid people would think we were a "thing."  Even though he's
>pretty closeted, he doesn't like people to link him romantically in their
>minds with women.  Well, Sunday night as we were driving off to a party
>together we saw some friends and he groans; "Oh darn, they saw me driving
>off with you, and you have such a reputation for being a gay friendly,
>now they'll think I'm gay!"  I just laughed.
>-- 

I used to go to the local flea market every Sat. morning with this female
friend of min.  We'd walk around, checking out the junk and the treasures,
hand-in-hand.  I always found it amusing that all the men I'd see the night 
before at the bar would just go bug-eyed when they saw us together.  We'd
not only be hand-in-hand, but often I'd have my arm wrapped around her 
shoulders and we looked very much like a "thing."  SO, what ended up 
happening is that many people began asking me if I was bi.  Well, I'm not,
but having been one of the few people to stand up for my bi friends, 
everyone assumed I was, so the sayings began flying around about me.  
"Yes, I'm bi, I like both men and boys (not!)"  "Yes, I'm bi,  I just
buy buy buy..."  and the best and my favorite, " Yes, I'm bi, both 
top and bottom..."  
   Whatrelevance does all of this have, well, it is uncomfortable to 
be called something you aren't, even if it's being done with the best 
of intentions.  But for me, I could really care less what other 
people think of me when they don't know me.  It also brought me to 
think about what my straight friends go through when they are seen with 
me all the time. It's the same.  Her in NM I'm a fairly recognised gay
because I used to write a column on lesbigay issues for a local paper 
which included a picture (and it starts up again in a few weeks, I just
found out, after a year and a half hiatus...).  SO my straight friends
would sometimes worry that people would think they were gay.  My answer 
was always, so let them.  They can be wrong if they want to be wrong.  
If they really care, they'll ask.. 

>
******************************************************************
*  Flapjack                         *    "Yes, I'm bi, -         *
*  B7/8 f+ w (c+d)v g++ k+(+)v
*             s(-/+)v m e r(=)      *     both top and bottom."  *
*******************************************************************


Newsgroups: alt.support
From: nosberg@saims.skidmore.edu (nancy osberg)
Subject: Donahue.... kids
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:50:06 GMT

I'm a little late coming into this conversation (?), but I've read the
comments here several times and my feelings remain the same.  To
"gisle" I would have to say that had your mother given you away (back
in the 50's or 60's, I believe you said) she would have been run out
of town on the rails!  In "those days" to have done something like
that would have caused both your mother and you to have some
derogatory names placed on your heads.  I'm not saying that was good,
I'm just saying your mother did what was considered the right thing to
do at the time.  Now, in our present world, it is not considered a bad
thing (as it would have been then) to say "I can't bring up this child
properly, so I'm going to give it away."  It's all well and good that
we have become that advanced, but it seems to me a very important
issue is being overlooked here and that is the fact that too many
women (for too many reasons) become pregnant BEFORE they are ready to
have a child.  It seems a more dominant issue today as we see child
after child being left to the streets or given up for adoption or
homeless or whatever or perhaps it's not.  Perhaps all those folks who
were abusive to their kids in the 50s and 60s, but kept them (and from
the responses, there seem to be a lot of you out there who lived with
abusive parents) were in the same situation--not really ready to have
children--but because of the times, couldn't very well give those
children away.

As I said, I feel the real issue here being overlooked is that people
should decide they are not ready to raise children BEFORE they have
them, not AFTER they have them.  It's a little like putting the cart
before the horse, and given that children are our most important
resource, I think we should be a bit more careful in planning them.
Of course, that's another whole "ball of wax"--how to be sure planned
parenting is followed.  Instead of giving credit to those who have
babies and then find they can't handle them, why don't we try to find
solutions to having babies we can't handle in the first place.
Education?  More accessible birth control?  More accessible abortions?
Someone must know the answer.
Newsgroups: alt.support,soc.motss
From: rks@cscns.com (Dancing With synergy)
Subject: Re: People thinking you're gay or straight when you're not...
Followup-To: alt.support,soc.motss
Organization: Community_News_Service
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:56:03 GMT

Dominick V. Zurlo (anthropo@carina.unm.edu) wrote:
: In article <1iungcINNn06@rave.larc.nasa.gov> carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) writes:
: >....
: >Along other lines, but still connected to the thread of who one is seen
: >with.  I've mentioned a close friend who is a gay man on this group before.
: "Yes, I'm bi, I like both men and boys (not!)"  "Yes, I'm bi,  I just
: buy buy buy..."  and the best and my favorite, " Yes, I'm bi, both 
: top and bottom..."  

Hmmm. That could have some interesting implications. :-)


:    Whatrelevance does all of this have, well, it is uncomfortable to 
: be called something you aren't, even if it's being done with the best 
: of intentions.  But for me, I could really care less what other 
: people think of me when they don't know me.  It also brought me to 

I'm with you! And how liberating it is to finally *not care*! When I
think of all the years I wasted because I was worried about what others
think, I could kick my own butt. Finally, something clicks and I 
now say "f**k it" and do what I want to do. Naturally, there are still
ignoramuses out there who make assumptions about me based on appearance.
Most people think I am gay. Some ask directly. Most just speculate. They
do this because I am a female who doesn't wear make-up, prefers jeans
and boots to skirts and hose and tends to have a forceful walk. I 
will admit that my tomboyish childhood has carried over and I prefer
typically "male" activities to typically "female" activities. I do 
have short hair and prefer one small hoop earring in my right ear. 
To me, it is just a preference and a question of comfort. To others, 
it screams DYKE! Acht. Who cares? (I am not strictly dyke. I am bi. 
Again, acht! who cares? 


: think about what my straight friends go through when they are seen with 
: me all the time. It's the same.  Her in NM I'm a fairly recognised gay
: because I used to write a column on lesbigay issues for a local paper 
: which included a picture (and it starts up again in a few weeks, I just
: found out, after a year and a half hiatus...).  SO my straight friends
: would sometimes worry that people would think they were gay.  My answer 
: was always, so let them.  They can be wrong if they want to be wrong.  
: If they really care, they'll ask.. 

With friends like that, who needs bloody enemies? 

//gisle


Xref: sparky alt.support:1604 soc.motss:56329
From: hatley@granite.pa.dec.com (Alan Hatley)
Newsgroups: alt.support,soc.motss
Subject: Re: One hell of a wake-up call.
Date: 12 Jan 93 08:31:50
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
	<1993Jan12.041804.4953@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.pa.dec.com
In-reply-to: solovay@netcom.com's message of Tue, 12 Jan 1993 04:18:04 GMT

why not suggest to your father that he identify himself as a friend of the
gay community?
Newsgroups: alt.support
From: nosberg@saims.skidmore.edu (nancy osberg)
Subject: One Hell of a Wake up Call
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:26:40 GMT

I agree with the response saying that your father should find an
honest way of dealing with his feelings regarding the treatment of
lesbigays.  If he "becomes" gay, it would seem to me a statement
saying you can only accept lesbigay-ism if you are a lesbian or gay
person.  On the other hand, to join some functioning group and stand
his ground as a "straight" person is a strong statement to EVERYONE
that he "ain't gonna take it anymore", and that, as a straight person,
he accepts the lifestyles and honors and respects the feelings of
lesbigays.  

What he proposes is a strong statement, indeed, but not nearly so
strong as looking at the person next to you and approving of them
regardless of how different they are from yourself.
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer
From: dougb@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Douglas Bank)
Subject: Re: Can cancer metastisize from biopsies or surgery
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:51:09 GMT

In article <1is8v0INNolp@im4u.cs.utexas.edu> flatau@cs.utexas.edu (Arthur Flatau) writes:
>
>At my support group we got into a discussion about whether biopsies or
>surgery can help cancer to metastisize.  I was wondering if anyone
>knows anything about this (either from their doctor or from reading).
>References would be really great.  I am primarily talking about
>properly done biopsies and surgery, not where the doctor screwed up.

Biopsies are not done for testicular cancer because it can cause local
dissemeniation of the tumor into the scrotum and the inguinal lymph
nodes.  Basically, the biopsy doesn't necessarily help the tumor
to metastasize, but it increases the possibility that it will 
metastasize in an unusual area. (Testicular cancer does not normally
metastasize to these areas)

Hope this helps

Doug
From: flatau@cs.utexas.edu (Arthur Flatau)
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer
Subject: Can cancer metastisize from biopsies or surgery
Date: 11 Jan 1993 10:58:08 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: im4u.cs.utexas.edu


At my support group we got into a discussion about whether biopsies or
surgery can help cancer to metastisize.  I was wondering if anyone
knows anything about this (either from their doctor or from reading).
References would be really great.  I am primarily talking about
properly done biopsies and surgery, not where the doctor screwed up.

Thanks,
Art
Organization: Philosophy, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer
Date: Sat,  9 Jan 1993 22:34:51 -0500 
From: Cristina Bicchieri <cb36+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Bone cancer

A friend's father (65 yrs old) has been diagnosed in Italy with a rare
form of bone cancer called "adamantinoma". Does anybody know what type
of cancer this is, the prognosis, treatment choices, etc. ? 
Thanks
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer
From: charles@elaine4.Stanford.EDU (Charles Benjamin Roosen)
Subject: Re: What new innovation, software or products do you want to see?
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 5 Jan 93 09:26:27

In article <1993Jan5.043057.19576@netcom.com> ekman@netcom.com (Crossly the Glad-Eyed Bear) writes:

   In article <sehari.726197811@du139-208.cc.iastate.edu> sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari) writes:
   >
   >What type of new innovation, software or products do you want to be
   >introduced to the market place.

   How about a cure for prostate cancer?  If you don't have one of those,
   maybe you should post this to a group to which the content is relevant.
   -- 
   Crossly the Glad-Eyed Bear              ekman@netcom.com
   Home for the Terminally Infirm, Redwood City, California

I have emailed Mr. or Ms. Sehari stating that this type of massive crossposting
to all possible newsgroups is downright antisocial.  I'd encourage everyone
else to do likewise.

Charles Roosen
charles@playfair.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer
From: ekman@netcom.com (Crossly the Glad-Eyed Bear)
Subject: Re: What new innovation, software or products do you want to see?
Organization: Home for the Terminally Infirm
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 04:30:57 GMT

In article <sehari.726197811@du139-208.cc.iastate.edu> sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari) writes:
>
>What type of new innovation, software or products do you want to be
>introduced to the market place.

How about a cure for prostate cancer?  If you don't have one of those,
maybe you should post this to a group to which the content is relevant.
-- 
Crossly the Glad-Eyed Bear              ekman@netcom.com
Home for the Terminally Infirm, Redwood City, California
From: diana@com (CatWoman )
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer
Subject: Re: What new innovation, software or products do you want to see?
Date: 9 Jan 93 16:52:56 GMT
Organization: Castle WetWare MouseCatcher

charles@elaine4.Stanford.EDU (Charles Benjamin Roosen) writes:

] ekman@netcom.com (Crossly the Glad-Eyed Bear) writes:
] 
]sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari) writes:
 
{junk}

]How about a cure for prostate cancer?  If you don't have one of those,
]maybe you should post this to a group to which the content is relevant.
] 
] I have emailed Mr. or Ms. Sehari stating that this type of massive crossposting
] to all possible newsgroups is downright antisocial.  I'd encourage everyone
] else to do likewise.
] 
] Charles Roosen
] charles@playfair.stanford.edu

Just an FYI - B.S. (hmmm - I hadn't noticed the
initials before - maybe it IS a deliberate prank)
anyway - also posted this to some of the groups
where there are a lot less tolerant folks around.

If I recall, suggestions included mailing back 
copies of the post to the account (LOTS of copies),
and writing the SysAd at iastate.edu.  I have no
reason to doubt that both these suggestions were
implemented, so mail to the account is most likely
to be lost in the fallout at the least...

I seem to remember that one of the folks on another
group I read is also from iastate, and I think he
said that the account has been pulled.

Diana
Newsgroups: alt.support
From: petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire)
Newsgroups: alt.support,misc.kids
Subject: Re: Donahue: Options for Kids
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:06:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: sequent.1993Jan8.190640.10672
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.

rks@cscns.com (Dancing With synergy) writes:

>Anyone see Donahue today? It was a very heartening show for a few 
>different reasons. 

No didn't.

>The show involved a mother who voluntarily surrendered her child for
>adoption. She recognized that she could not bond to the child for a 
>variety of reasons. (She was hospitalized for manic-depression on a 
>few occasions.) The child was acting out consistently and was obviously
>unhappy. The mother admitted that the situation was not working and
>legally forfeited her rights to the child so that he could be raised
>in a family where he is happy, doing well in school and not having
>the emotional problems he experienced while living with his biological
>mother. 

I think it was more simple than that, she just cared (loved) her son
more than anything else.

>I felt personally heartened by the experience because I think it is
>evidence that we are finally coming around to believing that children
>are not possessions, not objects, but real people with their own needs
>and wants. 

I would to, but from what I have seen, she is the exception, also the
'system' in most states would be against her doning what she did.

>As an adult "unattached child", I can only say that I wish we would
>have been nearly as enlightened in the late '50s and early '60s when
>I was growing up. When I was a kid, no one really recognized abuse
>as abuse unless it was flagrant, overtly physical and obvious. Emotional
>abuse was not considered a problem -- not really. 

Still isn't. I know I may seem bitter, but go out with a social worker
for a day. And I don't live in a county with a large urban city.

>I recognize that if my mother had been brave enough, willing enough

If she was, the gov't, church, etc would have done everything to get
her to change her mind.

>Both this case and the case of Gregory K. (who 'divorced' his biological
>mother) give me hope that kids will have a better future when they
>have some empowerment in their own lives. Kids *instinctively* know
>what is best for them and certainly know when they are not really 
>loved. 

>Any thoughts? Did anyone see the show? (I have lots of time to watch
>TV since I have been layed off for a while.) 

>//gisle

SOAP BOX ON FIRE - WATCH OUT....
Yes one thought, for people that have the time, go out and help, even
if for a few days. Get involved. See if you local school would like to
have a helper. PEOPLE JUST NEED TO GET INVOLVED, and I'm only talking
about a hour or so a week.

-pete
Pete Lancashire
petel@sequent.com
Newsgroups: alt.support