From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: pre-1964's?  Why are they special?
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:21:12 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1992Dec10.204148.14404@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> tjohnson@xenon.stanford.edu (Ted C. Johnson) writes:
#What's so special about pre-1964 Winchester bolt-action rifles?
#Every now and then someone mentions (in a gun magazine) about
#how great their pre-'64 Winchester rifle is, or an advertisement will
#say that their rifle is as good as a pre-64 Winchester.
#

Winchester-wise, 1965 was a year to live in infamy. Basically, Winchester
decided that for the 1965 production year, they would start "cost cutting"
measures to be more price competitive (and make more of a profit). They
did things like pressed checkering on stocks instead of hand checkering
with a woodcutting tool. They tried to be much more "production line"
like in their manufacturing methods. They paid for it all big time
in customer dissatisfaction.

#If they were so great in '64, why aren't they good now?

Actually, some of the more recent production US Repeating Arms
(i.e. the new Winchester) stuff has been (deliberately, I'm
sure) at least giving the appearance of pre-64 production.

#Did they break the mold in '64?

Essentially, yes.

#Did Mrs. Winchester stop blessing the rifles in '64?

If she didn't (at least for 1965 and immediately subsequent years),
she was in desperate need of having her eyeglass prescription overhauled.

#Did they change the design of the rifle (despite the fact that the pre-64
#design is more popular)?
#

I don't think they actually changed the designs of the Model 70,
Model 88, or Model 100, just the quality (and maybe cheapened some
components).

I *think* 1965 was around the time they discontinued the beloved
Model 12 shotgun (not at all sure about this though).

Take a trip to a local gunshow sometime and (if you can find one)
look at a pre-64 and post-64 model 70 (best if you can find
a late '60s vintage rather than more recent) and compare them.
I think you'll see the difference.

It is somewhat amusing to me that old Winchester (pre-64) rifles
and Shotguns are "desirable" and command a premium, but older
Remington rifles (such as the model 721, 722) can often be had
much less expensively than current production. I may grant that
the aesthetics of pre-64 Winchester stuff is somewhat more
appealing than Remington rifles of the same era, but still....

The other amusing thing is that the Winchester Model 12 shotguns
were only surpased in relatively recent years in production quantities
(I think by the Remington 870 series). I have heard estimates of
around two million model 12s produced (all gauges). Yet, they are
still considered extremely desirable, mainly because it appears noone
ever wants to part with them. Consequently, they only seem to get get sold
when someone really *needs* the money or someone dies. The 16 gauge
model 12 is *much* easier (and less expensive) to find than the
12 gauge. The other model 12 variants (20 gauge, 410, and I think 28
gauge) are command a *lot* more of a premium (especially a 28 gauge
if it was made). This is due to relative production quantities and
consequent collectiblity.

I hope this helps to answer your questions.

#Thanks.
#
#-Ted "born in '64 :-)"


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              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright