From: asim@heckle.ugcs.caltech.edu (A. M. Mughal)
Subject: Re: Is Islam equal to Intolearnce and Fascism ?
Organization: Caltech Undergraduate Computer Science
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:44:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.153424.27176@newton.ccs.tuns.ca> jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes:
>In article <25AUG199217581428@juliet.caltech.edu> mughal@juliet.caltech.edu (ASIM M MUGHAL) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.224302.28391@newton.ccs.tuns.ca>, jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes...
>>> 
>>>It may be a mere coincidence but the people of Pakistan happen to be HUMANs,
>>>and the Islamic system which is assumed supreme in Pakistan violates those
>>>people's RIGHT to decide their destiny.
>>
>>     We disagree. Islam is a religion of compasssion and mercy and for the
>>     benefit of humanity. It, by default, is not against the rights of people.
>>     It gives a decent way of life in which everyone can live in peace and
>>     harmony. 
>
>It's time for the same thing again I guess.. only the person keeps changing.
>You keep repeating the same thing again and again, and I keep proving how
>it is wrong.
	
	And I keep on proving just the opposite. 
>
>Who cares if Islam isn't by default against the rights of people. The fact
>is that Islam, which is assumed supreme in Pakistan, denies the people right
>to choose a system other than Islam. 

	Maybe one should read a little bit of history and look at the reasons
	of creating Pakistan. It seems to me that an overwhelming majority
	in Pakistan *wants* Islam system and you appear to be an exception.
>
>No one has a right to enforce a system on people saying that "It gives a 
>decent way of life in which everyone can live in peace and harmony." The
>people have an inherent right to decide against a system they consider
>outdated and barbaric.

	Only you seem to be suggesting it. Anyone who has even a little bit
	of knowledge of Islam as a religion knows it is not 'outdated' and
	'barbaric' it suprises me that you insist on attacking Islam this way.
>>>>
>>>>	I think you are isolating one possible factor which can be taken
>>>> 	as ignoring the theory. Let me highlight one other factor, the 
>>>>	U.S. Govt. supported Zia regime and its actions  so was U.S. Govt.
>>>>	involved in crushing the "MRD" too? Was it really for restoration of
>>>>	democracy or one political party's way of trying to the office ? 
>>>>
>>> 
>>>You should be ashamed of yourself for saying this. What political affiliation
>>
>>     Well, I am not, no need to be. I think I do have the right to ask the 
>>     question which I think is very relevant if we do intent to discuss the 
>>     matter by looking at all the factors and not by isolating those which fit 
>>     one's theory.
>>
>
>You sure do have a right to ask any question you like. But, I also have a right
>to say that asking questions regarding issues about which a common Pakistani
>knows that they are facts amounts to lying. That you question known facts is


	I don't think it does as the goal of MRD movement was to displace 	
	the government in power, I can't dispell the inherent bias in MRD.
>tantamount to denying them. What you are suggesting is similar to considering 
>the case that US is currently under a communist rule. Certainly any relatively
>normal individual will find disregarding such a hypothesis useful in any
>discussion, given the fact that it is not true.
>

	Thats an irrelevant analogy.
>>>do you think people of villages throughout Pakistan's Sindh province shared 
>>>because of which they were persecuted like that?? Do you even have the courage
>>
>>     I don't know.
>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>to acknowledge that so many people were killed???   If most of the political
>>
>>     What will my acknowledgement do ? Nor does it needs any courage.
>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>parties of a country (including the most popular party) take an initiative
>>>against a military dictator, what's so wrong about it?? Do the people have
>>
>>     I never said there is anything wrong it. I am a asking question regarding
>>     the intent of a political party in launching such a movement, I will
>>     like to hear your thoughts. 
>>
>
>What would the most popular political party anywhere in the world hope for
>as a result of such a movement... Does the fact that being the most popular,

	I am probably not convinced that they are the 'most popular party'
	not that I have any affiliation or soft heart for any other party
	but looking at the facts that show their legislators breaking away
	and joining the ruling coalition in Sindh Assembly makes me wonder.

>they are more likely to get elected disqualify them from taking part in a
>struggle to liberate the people. Why are you so determined to not allow 
>your mind to think beyond what appears to support "your" contention.. Why
>are you trying so intensely to convert a human rights issue to a discussion of
>Pakistani political parties. 
>

	I am not trying, I am convinced that your discussion is purely 
	political in nature and has nothing to do with religion. It seems
	from my side that you are bent on attacking a religion by 
	very narrow view of the events that took place.   
>>>to fight without any leaders to deserve credibility??
>>
>>     I don't know. I haven't seen it happen or form an opinion on it.
>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>Let me ask you one question. Does Islam recognise the people's right
>>>>>to decide against an Islamic system?
>>>>
>>>>	I will like to think yes. There are many many countries which have 
>>>>	chosen to decide against the Islamic system or any religion system
>>>>	as their  basis, separating 'church' and the state. 
>>> 
>>>I did not ask whether it is possible that a country with muslim majority
>>>be without an "Islamic" system. I know it is possible... and that's what I'm
>>>hoping will happen in Pakistan one day. 
>>
>>     In that case, you must be happy because as it is, Pakistan doesn't have
>>     an Islamic System. :)  
>>> 
>>> 
>
>So.. do you expect the people to wait till the final step is taken in replacing
>the assumed Islamic system with adoption of Islam as the constitution? I'm not 

	I don't have any opinion on this yet.

>surprised you find it funny. As you mentioned earlier, you don't find reason
>to be ashamed...
	I can't comprehend why you find yourself surprised it I discuss things
	
>What did your posting contain anyway.. other than a bunch of "I don't know"'s?
>The only thing you seem to know is that you disagree with me... that you don't

	If I don't have an answer, I will honestly tell you so. You asked me
	questions and I replied.               
>find a reason to be ashamed of for telling plain lies.. and that you must try
>to convert this discussion about violation of Pakistan's people's rights to
>a debate about its political parties. Doesn't a feeling of guilt ever spoil

	As I established earlier, I am not ashamed of asking a relevant 
	question. You may think it is lying but in my opinion it is not so.

>your sleep that it is because of people like you showing indifference toward
>the pathetic atmosphere in Pakistan that results in murders of people in the

	it is because, (again) I believe the discussion has to do with 
	politics of Pakistan and not related to religion as someone else
	on the net also pointed it out.
	the politics of Pakistan and not related to a religion in particular, as
	someone on the net also pointed out.
>name of Islam???

	Yes, the only reason I would go in a discussion would be to learn

	No reason to lose sleep;
	1. there is no reason for a guilt complex
	2. No one is showing difference, on the contrary showing enough
	   concern to discuss it
 is leading to murder of people
	4. The 'murder of people' is due to the political reasons and not
            religious.

	   is leading to the 'murder of people'

	4. The political situation is to be blamed for the 'murders of people'
	   and has nothing to do with the religion.

	to an end, methinks.
>>
>>Asim Mughal
>>[Standard Disclaimer]
>
>Nadeem
>
>-- 
>Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
>						 

 [ I think the editor is screwed up ]  

>School of Computer Science			  
>Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7882  


--

Asim Mughal

[Standard Disclaimer]