From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Why are many low-income women fat? (was Re: Separate but Equal?)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:47:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan04.093054.11282@microsoft.com> jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:
>In article <1992Dec31.035343.25285@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec28.072814.7365@microsoft.com> jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:
>>>Why doesn't "healthier" == "better"?
>>
>>You missed the point completely. 
>
>No, I got the point. I wanted to know why you _weren't_ making
>a value judgement.

There is no specific reason, in spite of the fact that you seem to
think that there -must- be, and I presume that you think it important
for some reason.

Why not tell me what you are looking for?
 
>>>Please don't take this the wrong way, Rich...but do you *REALLY* not
>>>make value judgements based on how fat someone appears to be, while
>>>at the same time preaching being fat is a personal choice, and that
>>>anyone who is fat can and should become fit???
>>
>>This is mixed up, there is no way I can take it, much less wrong.
>
>Sorry. I typically encounter people who make and voice value judgements on
>people's bodies with less thought than they give to which socks to put
>on in the morning.  

We have gone over this to many times Jen. You have a problem when it
comes to value judgements. I don't know what it is, but repetition is
no solution. If I have to add a no-value-judgement disclaimer to each 
and every sentence, then you are reading what you want to read, and not 
what I am writing.

>                       I've also encountered people who have no problems 
>with accepting fat people - but they tend to stick less in one's mind 
>[they don't stop you in the mall or on the way to class and tell you how
>you'd be so beautiful if you just lost X pounds, or point and tell their
>companion "didn't know we were hiring whales <snicker, snicker>", or tell
>you about how "to stop being fat for your own good" etc, etc.]

I've known many fat people who have the problem of projecting upon
others their frustrations, and will not accept correction. This can
be awkward if it is a coworker making your life difficult because of
their insecurities. It works both ways. Note that in both cases, the
blame is placed upon the non-fat person.
 
>Main reason I jumped was the combination of "fit==(!fat)" and "staying
>fat is a choice" message...which in my experience is well-correlated
>with "staying fat is a bad choice". Sorry about that.

No problem. BTW, happi gnu yeer!  :^)
 
>Maybe you've never been noticably fat [I'm not talking "I could stand to
>lose 10 pounds", I'm talking 100 or more over the average weight for your
>height. If so you may not believe me. 

I've gained 5 pounds over what I weighed when I left boot camp. For some
reason this annoys the hell out of some people. 
 
>>Maybe this will help, your value judgement does not have to agree with
>>mine, and they are still both right. 
>
>I agree with that.
>
>>And I did not say that -being- fat is
>>a personal choice, but staying that way may be.
>
>Hmmm. Can't really totally disagree with that.
>
>Side note....
>
>I quit buying Covert Bailey's fit==(!fat) when I looked around
>me and saw several people who were !fat, but also !fit. 

I do not recall anyone stating that [not-fat == fit]. And curiously,
from what you have written, it looks to me like you have described is
very close to what he says should happen. My biggest problem was not
lack of exercise, but poor nutrition. Once I corrected the nutritional
deficiencies, I made rapid progress getting back in shape. Also it
turns out that if I exercise at the 80% heart rate recommended by the
tables, I am wasting my time. It turns out that I make progress at a 
much higher rate than the tables show. Found out when the heart
monitor broke, and I set my own pace. As you say, your milage may
vary.

>                                                         Several of
>my college classmates weren't able to keep up with me while 
>walking, or to lift as much, or as limber. But they didn't have a
>layer of fat under their skin either. Most stayed this way by choice
>by not eating much or by living on coffee and/or smoking. Cheryl & 
>Lyn, tho, couldn't seem to get their fat level up...they tried, too.
>Milkshakes & fried foods & other fatty things out the wazzoo (they
>were both trying to conceive, under 10% bodyfat, and their doctors
>thought the lack of bodyfat was the problem).

From what I have read, when a womans body fat level falls below a
certain point, periods become irregular and fertility is uncertain.
I also understand that this is usually only a problem faced by female
athletes. 
 
>Anyway, I figure that fitness includes aerobic (heart/respitory system),
>strength, and flexibility. So, stretching and yoga, some lifting, and
>aerobics.  I also figure "level of fitness" is a scale & where each
>person should be on that scale is up to them & what they need/want.
>My dad is a warehouseman who lifts & manipulates pipes for sprinkler
>systems - mostly steel pipes from 1" to 16" in diameter, in lengths
>usually around 4'-12'. I have a "sissy white-collar desk job".  His
>daily life requires a higher level of fitness than mine.
>
>As for diet...gads, I'm just trying to quit thinking of food in
>terms of "bad" and "good" and think of it as fuel. 

It is fuel, but unlike fuel (which gets burned), food is also the
material from which your body is built. 

My job varies. Usually I do medium lifting, but there have been times
when I singlehandedly unboxed and installed 20 Sony Multiscan monitors
(20" screens), and I once carted an old Compaq 286 system a few miles.
Those Compaq's were built like tanks, I did not weigh it, but it had
to have been at least 40lbs, and there was no convienient way to carry
it. Mostly light lifting is about it.
 
>Your mileage may vary....
>
>-jen


Rich

payner@netcom.com