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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:36:00 EDT
From:         NWILSON@SMITH.BITNET
Subject:      Disagreeing with the Bible

DJ:
        Good Questions! I deal with those things, too, especially the passages
about slavery, and at times, the passages about women.
        MAKS gave some helpful points (Thanks Maks!) about knowing a little
about the history behind the passage, so that you don't read it out of
context. It helps to know what audience the writer was targeting, so you
can know exactly how the passage pertains to you.
        I guess I cringe when I hear "disagree with the Bible", because I
tend to think that if I object to it, it's hitting too close to my weak
spots, the areas in which I am most reluctant to let go of my ways. But it's
okay to want to test out what the Word has to say, as long as you realize
that ultimately, God's word is "for your own good".
        It's good to get your friends' opinion on your situations, but re-
member that the most important thing is that you learn what God really
desires for you. When you're making a choice and ask God to help you
decide, He won't always come up and whisper the answer in your ear. He won't
even always use your friends. Sometimes He will just put a new confidence
in you, suddenly take away anxiety, or grant you wisdom to know exactly
what to do.
        You asked "What do you do when the Word says one thing and your
heart and mind another?" I would say, "Remember that God is all wise,
and knows all things." I don't think it's a question of deciding whether
your heart and mind are right or if the Word is right, because we all know
the answer to that. It's more a question of, "How do I deal with the fact
that I don't like what the Word says about this?" I think that you should
pray for complete understanding of the passage, and understanding of how
it pertains to your life. Also ask for the ability to accept God's word,
even when it doesn
oops! doesn't sit well with you. When I read something that makes me want
to flip to another chapter, I say, Lord, there's a reason that I don't like
this passage (sometimes I know why and sometimes I don't). Help me to really
understand it. You didn't put it there to confound me, but to enrich me.
Help me accept what You are trying to say and not try to escape it."
        I hope that helps! Keep on keepin' on!
                                Nicole
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 22:53:00 EST
From:         The Nuzz <V063KC44@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ACLJ & CASE

Kerry Stephenson writes...

>Jay Sekulow has argued more cases before the Supreme Court than any other
>attorney in the United States, according to my information.  One of the
>Christian magazines did a profile on him sometime around last February or
>so.  He is a fascinating person.  He has also written a book about the legal
>rights of Christians in America which includes a good deal of autobiographical
>information.  It is called "From Intimidation to Victory:  Regaining the
>Christian Right to Speak," published by Creation House of Lake Mary, Florida.


        He is also counsel for Jews for Jesus. In the book of
testimonies from Jews for Jesus, _Testimonies of Jews who believe in
Jesus_ (formerly _Jesus for Jews_), one of the stories is his.
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 15:10:00 CST
From:         "Darryl (The Other Brother) Johnson" <DJOHNSON@TCUCVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Dominoes

From: CXKJP%UTXDP.bitnet@UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
  I realize it sounds extreme to link the right to an abortion
with contraception, however I remember distinctly the people
in the Texas town I was raised in voting for Carter primarily
because of his views on contraception. That was only about
15 years ago.
     I'm not denying the fact that some people link the two
     together.  I'm questioning the logic in saying that
     abortion should be judged on the merits of the issue of
     contraception.  Just because others get the two issues
     confused does not mean we are required to do so.  I
     wouldn't IGNORE someone's "secret" agenda, but I would not
     judge the current issue on the issue that might be next.

+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
>   Darryl K. Johnson      I  "To free a man of error is  <
>   Texas Christian        I   to give, not to take away. <
>   University             I   Knowledge that a thing is  <
>   Fort Worth, Texas      I   false is a truth."         <
>                          I    -- Arthur Schopenhauer    <
\-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
/ DJOHNSON@tcucvms.bitnet      DJOHNSON@gamma.is.tcu.edu  \
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 12:45:49 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 4/13
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

The promises of God in the New Testament

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these
ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that
is in the world through lust" (2 Peter 1:4).

"The Son of God, Jesus Christ ... for all the promises of God in Him are yea,
and in Him amen, unto the glory of God by us" (2 Corinthians 1:19,20).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 05:48:50 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Poverty
              5 Apr 1992 17:19:00 EST from <BSC92SPA18@RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU>

Jeff:

If there is no poverty, why did Jesus say, "the poor you will always
have with you."  If there is no poverty, why should Christians show
love for others less fortunate than themselves (if, indeed, we are all
more fortunate than we could ever imagine.)?  If there is no poverty,
why does my church share its dining room with the homeless and the
dispossessed every Sunday noon?  If there is no material reality, why
does pain hurt?  If there is no material reality, why do people who
fall off of tall buildings smash into the ground and die?  If there is
only mind, why did Jesus experience PHYSICAL death, PHYSICAL torture,
PHYSICAL rejection, and PHYSICAL resurrection?  Couldn't he have just
thought about it a while and then said, "OK, you're forgiven."

Still wondering.
                Love INC,
                         ---Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 18:46:42 EDT
From:         Andrew Brennan <BRENNAAA@DUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Pro Choice Rally in DC.

      Actually, not to prolong the discussion of abortion, but
   does anyone know if the 500,000 who were at the pro-choice rally
   in DC is accurate?

      Or is it just DC using the media to show their alignment on
   this issue?

      andrew.  (brennaaa@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:34:05 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: re-pro-choice

Lonnie:

And all the people said, "Amen."  Thanks for the reminder.  Men are people,
too.
    Love INC,
             ---Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 12:33:22 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject: Re: Biblical NT Church Leadership - Part 02
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              at Apr 9, 92 4:06 pm

>
>Ian, I'm responding to this to see if I get a daemon message, which I will
>try to forward to you. Does this mean that you are now a deacon?
>Toni
>

Toni,

No, I am not yet a deacon..

Our lead elder/apostle has a 2 pronged plan for leading people in the
deaconate.. First we go through leadership training, then he selects people
that he believes have the annointing for leadership and takes them through
a second level of training..

I have completed level 1 training, and on the side am also attending bible
college which is open to anyone in the church..


*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
From: bwiner@gabriel.carleton.ca (Bruce Winer)
Subject: Error in Logistic Regression
Organization: Carleton University
Distribution: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:29:41 GMT

The following result from one step of a Logistic Regression has raised
some concerns with the validity of the significance tests and the
statistics themselves. Are there known bugs in Logistic Regression?
Has anyone seen this type of result before? The Logistic command was:

 155  LOGISTIC REGRESSION ACQUIRE WITH SEXP EDUC BP2 YRMIG AGEIM
 156       CMA
 157     /CATEGORICAL=SEXP EDUC BP2 YRMIG AGEIM CMA
 158     /CONTRAST(SEXP)=INDICATOR
 159     /CONTRAST(EDUC)=INDICATOR
 160     /CONTRAST(BP2)=INDICATOR
 161     /CONTRAST(YRMIG)=INDICATOR(1)
 162     /CONTRAST(AGEIM)=INDICATOR(1)
 163     /CONTRAST(CMA)=INDICATOR
 164     /EXTERNAL
 165     /FSTEP

The offending portion of the output:

 ....

No variables can be removed.

Variable(s) Entered on Step Number
3..       BP2

Estimation terminated at iteration number 6 because
Log Likelihood decreased by less than .01 percent.

                     Chi-Square    df Significance
 -2 Log Likelihood    16484.601 41400        .0000
 Model Chi-Square      9730.125    16        .0000
 Improvement           1577.836     9        -1.00    <-------
 Goodness of Fit      41588.319 41400        .0000

  ....

-----
Bruce Winer                     | Internet: bwiner@ccs.carleton.ca
Faculty of Social Sciences      | 
Carleton University             | Tel: (613) 788-2600 ext. 3919
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1S 5B6 | Fax: (613) 788-3742
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 09:27:12 BST
Reply-To:     Paul Kentish <paul@WYE.LON.AC.UK>
From:         Paul Kentish <paul@WYE.LON.AC.UK>
Subject:      Kaplan-Meier
Comments: To: spssx-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

I have a user using SURVIVAL with SPSS/PC+ who says he really wants to get
the Kaplan-Meier statistics.  Does anyone know a package that produces
these or whether they can be derived from the SURVIVAL output?

Thanks in anticipation...
--
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Paul Kentish                             Tel (UK):      0233 812401 ext 397 |
| Head of Computer Services                Tel(Int'l): +44 233 812401 ext 397 |
| Wye College, University of London        Fax (UK):      0233 813320         |
| Wye, ASHFORD, Kent TN25 5AH              Fax (Int'l) +44 233 813320         |
| ENGLAND                                  Email: P.Kentish@uk.ac.lon.wye     |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: Interaction terms in REGRESSION
From: nichols@spss.com (David Nichols)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1992 17:44:52 GMT
Followup-To: Marcel van Aken's question
Organization: SPSS Inc.

Newer SPSS procedures for fitting regression equations (that is, LOGISTIC
REGRESSION--currently available, and COX REGRESSION--available as of version
5) have automatic creation of interaction terms. Unfortunately, REGRESSION
does not. The only way to fit an interaction term in REGRESSION is to
compute the variable(s) using COMPUTE and then name it (them) on the
VARIABLES list and the METHOD subcommand.

Interactions can be fitted somewhat more easily in MANOVA. If they involve
only categorical variables, the default model is to fit all interactions up
to as many orders as are produced by the number of categorical variables in
a full factorial design. If the interaction(s) involve(s) continuous
variables (referred to as covariates in MANOVA), an extra step must be
taken. An example for the case of two continuous predictors follows (the
ANALYSIS subcommand is required because otherwise MANOVA will not allow
the use of a covariate on the DESIGN subcommand):

MANOVA DV WITH A B
 /ANALYSIS=DV
 /DESIGN=A, B, A BY B

Although it doesn't do stepwise regression, MANOVA will otherwise handle
REGRESSION models and will often do things more easily than will REGRESSION
(see earlier postings about testing homogeneity of regressions).
--
 David Nichols           Statistical Support Specialist            SPSS, Inc.
 Phone: (312) 329-3684     Internet: nichols@spss.com     Fax: (312) 329-3657
*******************************************************************************
 Any correlation between my views and those of SPSS is strictly due to chance.
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From: seastman@skat.usc.edu (Skip Eastman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: Re: Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Date: 10 Apr 1992 08:04:19 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: skat.usc.edu

I've used SPSS on PC, Mac and large Sun lately, and choose the Mac,
even though it is slower in many cases than the other two.  I do it
because all of the usual Mac "mousey" things work in spite of the fact
that SPSS Mac looks just the same as its PC and mainframe versions.
That also means that I can have lots of windows open and grab parts of
output files to print, etc.  The Mac version, by the way, was a
complete rewrite of the program, and was numbered the same as the new
version on the PC and mainframe.  (It didn't start at version 1.0.)
All in all, I like the Mac version very much, although the Tables
command, while providing PostScript(TM) output, doesn't give me any
flexibility over font choice, nor can I directly export the output
file to other programs for cleaning up.  Transport into Word(TM) means
deleting lots of control characters, and location control of columns
is based on fixed-width font and spaces.

From a performance standpoint, SPSS Mac on my ci, with 8 megs of RAM,
a cache card and color turned off runs at about one-third the speed of
the large Sun 4 I have access to via our network.  But the surprising
results come on a Toshiba 5200 portable! that I have tested directly
against the Mac.  The 5200 is a full-power 20mhz 386 (no batteries).
I ported a Mac SPSS setup and data through file exchange.  It runs
without modification.  Using the standard software which comes with
the Toshiba (autoexec and config files, whatever caching is stock) it
runs the same job as the Mac at over 5 times the speed!  This job is a
1200 case, 350 variable one, so I know it is not somewhere in the
round-off. I have tried the same job on other PC platforms with
results more in the Mac range.  Our experts have been unable to
determine the source of the anomaly, but it sure annoys the Apple guys
when they see it.

'nuf for one response.

Skip Eastman
Center for Scholarly Technology
University of Southern California
From: nanda@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: Can I use SPSS on MAC??
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:47:07 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

How good is the SPSS on the Mac? Can I do a spreadsheet on QuatroPro and export
that file to SPSS? Is SPSS on the Mac even comparable to the one on PCs?

thanx in advance.

Praba
in%"pmanivas@research.rgsps.ukans.edu"

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Organization: Connecticut's Business School
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:19:28 EST
Reply-To:     Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
From:         Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Comments: To: "Niccholas W. Hinkle" <hinklen@EGR.MSU.EDU>

On 04/09/92 you said:
>Given that the "job size" is defined to be too large to run on PCs, i.e.
>too many variables or cases, or the run time would be prohibitive. What
>RS/6000 or SUN Sparc models can support 20 interactively based users
>running "SPSS/PC Prohibitive" jobs?

My personal experience is that Mac SPSS on a IIci delivers about the
same wall clock execution time to one individual as SPSS-X on an IBM
ES/9000 shared with 600 or so others (the mainframe's CPU times are only
a couple of seconds, but the time from submission to output is
comparable to what a Mac delivers).

The Mac version has ALL the features of the mainframe version (except
for the LISREL option).  A UNIX workstation is both quicker and more
expensive than a Mac Quadra.  I'd be interested in a comparison of
cost/performance for a workstation supporting a score or so versus a
suitable number of Macs with FPUs (SPSS runs at a quite acceptable pace
on a Mac SE/30 -- alas, Apple no longer makes that model; I guess the
closest substitute would be a IIsi with the addition of an FPU).

For that matter now that OS/2 2.0 is, will soon be, shipping, what about
SPSS OS/2?  If you've already got the PC's, might that be a feasible
option (of course OS/2 2.0 is going to want 8 MBytes of RAM and 20
MBytes of hard drive space and I expect that anything less than a full
32-bit system is likely to be sluggish; though I've heard that the 20
MHz 386SLC does deliver respectable performance -- compared to what, I
wonder).
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Organization: Connecticut's Business School
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:21:56 EST
Reply-To:     Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
From:         Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Can I use SPSS on MAC??
Comments: To: nanda@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU
              9 Apr 1992 18:47:07 GMT from <nanda@KUHUB.CC.UKANS .EDU>

On Thu, 9 Apr 1992 18:47:07 GMT you said:
>How good is the SPSS on the Mac? Can I do a spreadsheet on QuatroPro and export
>that file to SPSS? Is SPSS on the Mac even comparable to the one on PCs?

Mac SPSS doesn't read spreadsheet formats directly, but there are
several fairly easy ways to save spreadsheet data (as an ASCII file) in
a format that SPSS can easily use.

SPSS Mac blows SPSS PC away.  It doesn't have the either the variable or
command restrictions.  The appropriate comparison is to the mainframe
version.

The PC versions data entry interface is better, but there are a host of
Mac editors (including shareware spreadsheets) which do data entry quite
nicely.  My primary reason for electing Mac or PC was so I could port
command and data files from a mainframe to my desktop without all the
restrictions.  I haven't got any files I can't run on a Mac; admittedly,
the largest data set I work with is barely more than 500K.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
From: dreblow@vax.muskingum.edu (Lewis M. Dreblow)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: Help with proper analysis.
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:34:27 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

Dear frendly networkers,

I am working with a Geology professor who has taken xray and descriptive
data on various rock samples.  He would like to use an appropriate
statistical procedure to "tease out" relationships between his variables.
His data consists of 25 xray variables which indicate in the range
0.0 to 0.25 measured presence of particular elements and 13 characteristic
variables coded 0 (no) or 1 (yes) for such things as color and shape.

Aside from a correlation matrix, does anyone have a suggestion as to what
would be an appropriate statistical procedure which would be robust
enough for his use.

Email to DREBLOW@VAX.MUSKINGUM.EDU or post if you like.

Thanks for any and all suggestions.
Lewis Dreblow
From: jmiller@alfred.carleton.ca (Jane Miller)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: Re: Can I use SPSS on MAC??
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:03:13 GMT
Organization: Carleton University

In <SPSSX-L%92040916225021@VM.MARIST.EDU> SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (Murph Sewall) writes:

>Mac SPSS doesn't read spreadsheet formats directly, but there are
>several fairly easy ways to save spreadsheet data (as an ASCII file) in
>a format that SPSS can easily use.

Actually, the GET TRANSLATE command on Mac SPSS will input  SYLK
spreadsheet or tab-delimited files.

------------------------------
Dr. Jane Miller
Senior Research Consulting Analyst          Phone: (613) 788-2600 ext.2506
Computing and Communications Services       Email: jmiller@ccs.carleton.ca
Carleton University, Ottawa
Canada  K16 5B6
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Connecticut's Business School
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:06:33 EST
Reply-To:     Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
From:         Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Desktop SPSS
Comments: To: Skip Eastman <seastman@SKAT.USC.EDU>
              10 Apr 1992 08:04:19 -0700 from <seastman@SKAT.USC .EDU>

On Fri, 10 Apr 1992 08:04:19 -0700 you said:
>The surprising results come on a Toshiba 5200 portable! that I have
>tested directly against the Mac.  The 5200 is a full-power 20mhz 386 (no
>batteries). I ported a Mac SPSS setup and data through file exchange.
>It runs without modification.  Using the standard software which comes
>with the Toshiba (autoexec and config files, whatever caching is stock)
>it runs the same job as the Mac at over 5 times the speed!  This job is
>a 1200 case, 350 variable one, so I know it is not somewhere in the
>round-off. I have tried the same job on other PC platforms with results
>more in the Mac range.  Our experts have been unable to determine the
>source of the anomaly, but it sure annoys the Apple guys when they see
>it.

If the Toshiba 5200 has a full 32-bit bus and uses a quick hard disk
(the older models of PS/2's if not the newer ones as well, used dead slow
hard disks compared to Zenith, Apple, and just about everyone else),
then character-based SPSS PC should be considerably quicker than a GUI
version (Mac, OS/2, Windows) on similar hardware.  I assume you're using
the FPU version (4.0.x CV) on the IIci and have the disk cache set to
256K or so?  Does the Toshiba have a coprocessor too (in the Mac version
anyway the FPU makes a really large difference)?

I pondered the speed difference at some length before going to the Mac.
In the end, I decided avoiding the constraints imposed by 640K meant
more to me than the throughput difference.  It also seemed to me that
buying an equivalent (full 32-bit) platform was, in the end, going to
cost me about as much as a Mac.  How easy is it to word process while
the Toshiba is running the SPSS job in the background (as you know, it's
no sweat on the Mac although there is some hesitation in the word
processor from time to time when SPSS is doing I/O).

You might consider using Baseline's Vantage to edit Mac SPSS output.
Vantage cleans up control characters (funny, I've never found them to be
a problem) and can change space runs to tabs with a simple command.  By
and large I print Tables output "as is."  At this point, I'm interested
in the statistics more than reformatting the tables for presentation
(that may change in the future).
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:57:00 EDT
Reply-To:     Elizabeth Pelosi <PELOSIEM@CANISIUS.BITNET>
From:         Elizabeth Pelosi <PELOSIEM@CANISIUS.BITNET>
Subject:      NEWPAGE FORMAT OPTION IN FREQUENCIES

I HAVE ATTEMPTED TO UTILIZE THE NEWPAGE FORMAT OPTION IN FREQUENCIES
(E.G., /FORMAT=NEWPAGE).  FOR SOME REASON IT DOES NOT WORK.  THAT IS,
I DO NOT GET OUTPUT WITH ONE TABLE PER PAGE AS PROMISED!
PLEASE HELP.
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