HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: Depression: Nutritional treatments
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
	<1992Sep10.201913.0645162@locus.com> <1992Sep11.140649.17191@spdcc.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:14:45 GMT

I am a little puzzled.  Did I miss a flame directed at me?

In article <1992Sep11.140649.17191@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve
Dyer) writes:

   >What's making you so net.crabby of late?  First the guy whose
   >hypnotherapist, working adjunctively with his neurologist, obtained
   >substantial migraine relief gets raked over the coals as tho he were
   >selling NLP like an Amway product, and now this.

   First, shirley you're not talking about David whats-his-name.
   Tell me he's not a bozo, Bob.

I think that Bob is referring to me; at least, I am the "bozo" who
posted concerning my cluster headache relief from hypnotherapy.  When
I read Bob's original reply, I thought Dr. Dyer might have posted
something that had not yet reached me.  Since I must have missed the
referred to flame, may I know what I have been accused of?  Not
getting my headaches cured, perhaps?  Being interested in something
without scientific evidence of efficacy?  Some other heinous crime?

"Selling NLP like an Amway product"?  I do not advocate anyone taking
NLP training who is not interested, and have only my own experience to
share (which is almost wholly subjective).  Likewise, I do not
recommend anyone consult an NLP practitioner who has not already
consulted a doctor (for a medical condition) or a therapist (for a
mental one).

Could someone enlighten me concerning my crime?

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com

Newsgroups: sci.med
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Xanax
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 00:45:53 GMT

In article <=7rn2_p.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>Others ask not "Why?" but "What would it take to change?" In particular
>the Neuro-lingustic Programming people are famous for 15 minute
>phobia cures of patients long in therapy without success.

Oh, please.  They're not famous for 15-minute cures.  They're famous
for claiming something as ridiculous as this.

>They have other techniques for what are ordinarily considered neurotic
>symptoms.

Gee, that's not the impression I get from meeting NLP-droids.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Prevalence of Hyperobesity
Date: 15 Sep 92 22:35:18 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <1992Sep14.055541.6113@omen.UUCP> caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) writes:
>In article <16440@pitt.UUCP> geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
>>Any breakdown according to ethnicity?  It would be interesting
>>to see how French and English Americans compare to their counterparts
>>in Europe.  One has the impression that certain ethnic groups
>>carry a higher percentage of the hyperobese, especially among women.  
>>-- 
>
>The paper did mention that the prevalence of obesity is greater in
>black women than in non-blacks.   No difference was found in men.
>
>        "we checked whether differences of mean BMI in women
>        among the three countries held when excluding black
>        women from the USA sample.  The result of the comparison
>        remained the same"
>

What about eastern European women and Mexican-American women?
They also seem to have a skew distribution compared with women
of French or English ancestry.  These ethnic groups comprise
a fairly large segment of the American population, but almost
none in England or France.










-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: TMJ (temporal mandibular joint syndrom(sp?)) What are the symptoms?
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:20:47 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <18mh45INNd89@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> starfish@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Smarter than the Average Blur) writes:
>
>The header says it all. The reason I'm asking is because I believe
>I might be suffering from this.

Pain in the joint, usually with clicking, worsened by chewing.
Highly overdiagnosed.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: Phobias, NLP, etc (was Re: Xanax)
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:35:51 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.000518.10846@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
}In article <t3ynlgq.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
}>Mark Kline's use of the phrase "Like shit it does" in a serious discussion
}>disqualifies him from any further serious consideration by me.
}
}Fine.  Now fuck off, and get the hell out of here like you promised,
}you maroon.

I really admire the way Mark Kline & Steve Dyer make their points.  No doubt
they have a tremendous future in the political arena - heavy on the insults
and light on the information.  That qualifies them as either career politicians
or spoiled 6-year-olds.  I wonder why they think we should take posters of such
obvious qualifications seriously about ANYTHING...
From: kjell@cse.ucsc.edu (Kjell Post)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Weight loss => arthritis?
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:59:14 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
NNTP-Posting-Host: arapaho.ucsc.edu


About a year ago I lost 60 lbs over a period of a few months.
My current weight is now 180 lbs which is considered normal for my frame.
But now I'm experiencing arthritis-like symptoms: tender feet, swollen
toes and fingers etc.  
Can this possibly have something to do with the release of toxins
from fat cells?  

--Kjell			kjell@cs.ucsc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline)
Subject: Re: "Anti-psychiatry": Cool the flames  ...was: Re: Xanax
Organization: Syracuse University
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 92 22:31:20 EDT

In article <1992Sep5.044656.20572@athena.cs.uga.edu> mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.091357.29655@newstand.syr.edu> mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline) writes:
>>Anxiety and mood disorders afflict women more often than men.
>
>Is there a solid biological basis for this, or could it be that our culture
>does not train women to cope with adversity?  (Or, conversely, trains
>men to be _too_ stoical?)

Both biological and psycho-cultural effects are at work, no doubt.  
A number of biological factors have been suggested which might account
for women's susceptiblity to anxiety and mood disorders, none are known
for sure.  Prenatal exposure to androgenic (male) steroids is known
to alter brain structure and behavioral patterns long after birth.
Estrogens alter brain responsivity to important neurotransmitters,
and estrogen and progresterone rise and fall every menstrual cycle;
recent research has suggested differential effects on the cerebral 
hemispheres as tapped by neuropsychological measures.  The gender
bias is help-seeking - whether a stereotype or cultural or what -
is a reality.  Whatever the mechanisms, and it seems there are
probably many, the increased rate of mood and anxiety disorders 
among women seems well established in careful epidemiologic studies
involving people in the community, not just those already seeking
mental health treatment.






--
================================================================= 
mark kline                              mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu
suny health science center, syracuse    voice: (315) 422-1050
================ courtesy of syracuse university ================
Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.chem,sci.bio
From: zorrilla@cattell.psych.upenn.edu (Eric Zorrilla)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Xanax
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:55:36 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

David Sternlight writes:

>Sean McLinden seems to be applying pharmaceutical standards of effectiveness
>to therapies. Few, if any "widely accepted" non-pharmaceutical therapies
>have been subjected to such standards, and it is as inappropriate to
>apply them to new therapies as it would have been to, say, Freud.

This is why Freud is rapidly becoming a figure of primarily historical interest

>For bettor or worse, non-chemical psychotherapy has been subjected
>to something like the following standards:

According to whom?  Scientifically conducted outcome studies are nothing
new to psychotherapy (although, of course, it's impossible for them to be
double-blind)

>1. Does it help patients?

Does it help patients more than a placebo?

>2. Is there a credible theoretical underpinning?

Who cares?  See 1.

>3. Are its practitioners trained in some reliable and replicable way?

This implies that you believe that "schools" of psychotherapy have some central
source of authority that oversees all of the training of its followers.  Oh,
I forgot that you're talking about NLP...

This has nothing to do with the efficacy of the therapy.  It's a problem
with the therapist and isn't an issue.

>4. Is there any substantial body of people hurt by the technique? (note
>that this standard is often ignored or obfuscated--did the psychiatrist's
>patient commit suicide as a consequence of the therapy or was he
>going to unstoppably do so anyway?

Fine - work it into the cost/benefit analysis.

I would also add:

5.  Are there other available treatments which can be administered with as
much (or more) benefit but less (or equal) cost to the patient?  In other
words, what is the opportunity cost of using the therapy?

As far as most of us here know.  We have no evidence that NLP gets past #1.


[--------------------------------------+--------------------------------------]
| Eric Zorrilla - Dept. of Psychology  | zorrilla@cattell.psych.upenn.edu     |
| University of Pennsylvania           | 3815 Walnut, Philadelphia, PA 19104  |
[--------------------------------------+--------------------------------------]
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Phobias, NLP, etc (was Re: Xanax)
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:05:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Sep15.000518.10846
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <t3ynlgq.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>Mark Kline's use of the phrase "Like shit it does" in a serious discussion
>disqualifies him from any further serious consideration by me.

Fine.  Now fuck off, and get the hell out of here like you promised,
you maroon.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: zcnj01@hou.amoco.com (Cecil N. Jones)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: HPV and Vitamin B
Date: 5 Sep 92 01:08:03 GMT
Reply-To: zcnj01@hou.amoco.com
Organization: Amoco


Reposting in case the original didn't get through:

I recently saw a short note that said that studies at the University of Alabama at Birmingham prove that adequate vitamin B keeps HPV (Human Papilloma Virus) in check and prevents cell abnormalities that lead to cancer of the cervix.

Does anyone have a complete reference to this study, or have any other knowledge of the specifics? What is an adequate amount of vitamin B? How does it keep HPV in check? Etc.

Any info is appreciated.

Thanks,

---
  Cecil N. Jones    Amoco Production Co.  Houston, TX  713-588-5716
  Jones_Cecil_N/ets_ess@hou.amoco.com     ..or..     cnjones@hou.amoco.com           
  The opinions expressed are solely my own.




---
  Cecil N. Jones    Amoco Production Co.  Houston, TX  713-588-5716
  Jones_Cecil_N/ets_ess@hou.amoco.com              
  The opinions expressed are solely my own.
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Experimentation and teaching on non-patients
Date: 8 Sep 92 23:02:03 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <1992Sep3.194539.6338@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mdicker@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Dickerson) writes:
>
>doing the study.  But at one point, I had read a book on medical
>ethics, whcih seemed to imply that such things were common adn that
>stuents felt pressure to volunteer for sometimes what were ven
>(oops even, not ven) dangerous proceedures.  The one discussed in
>the ethics book was an experiment dealing with cardiovascular
>fitness - I didn't get the jist of it because I wasn't knowledgable
>enough, but it was apparently to study the effects of various things
>on heart beat rates under certain levels of work, etc.  Apparently
>several of the subjects suffered adverse effects to this test and
>it prompted an investigation.  But I am glad (as she will be) that
>this is not a common occurrence in medical schools.

I believe I am familiar with the case you are talking about.
In this case, a cardiologist was performing 4 chamber catheterization
on normal subjects, for which he was paying $1000 or so.  It was
felt that this sort of test was 1) too risky for normals and 2)
the $1000 inducement (this was in the 60's) was too much of a
temptation for the medical students.  This was before the days of
IRBs and nowadays such a thing would never be approved.



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: sci.med
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:02:06 -0400 
From: Sean McLinden <sean+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Use of statistical evidence Was: Re: Xanax
	<BuKn7p.6DL@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>


>In article <Yeh87=K00UzxI1Dp15@andrew.cmu.edu> sean+@andrew.cmu.edu
(Sean McLin
>den) writes:
>>>> Either evidence exists for the efficacy of a treatment or it doesn't.
>>>> If it doesn't, then those that say the treatment is ineffective are
>>>> clinically correct.
> 
>I must put on my professional uniform and loudly protest.  This is total
>misuse of statistical reasoning.  There is no such thing as clear,
>conclusive, statistical evidence.  Unfortunately, too many medical
>(and other) people who have had statistics methods courses believe
>that the methods came down with whatever religious works they follow.

Nowhere did I mention in the quoted paragraph, "statistics". Nowhere did
I say "clear" or "conclusive". In fact, I  haven't been all that impressed
that any statisticians posting to this group understand a damned thing about
patient care and I certainly wouldn't argue that to "know" that a therapy
is effective one needs statistics. I have better things to do than model an
artificial world with numbers and then try to tell a story with them.

However, I *did* say evidence (there is other evidence besides statistical
evidence, thankfully) and what I said is a tautology which you might have
cleverly pointed out if you had not been reacting viscerally.

The initial assertion (if you might be so good to return to it), is that
a person claiming that a treatment is ineffective is honor bound to provide
evidence for this claim, and this is bull. The burden of proof is on the
proponent of the therapy. You may not like it (less business for you since
there are many more non-theories than theories), but that is the way that
it is.
From: lsg001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Graham Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Acne.  What can be done?
Date: 9 Sep 92 10:16:16 GMT
Organization: abUSENET, Coventry University, Coventry, UK

In article <BuA1yC.Gz2@oceania.com> seeger@oceania.com writes:
>In article <5285@krafla.rhi.hi.is> karlth@rhi.hi.is (Karl Thoroddsen) writes:
>> I have had a acne problem for 8 years, I'm 23 now, and think that nearly
>> a decade would be enough to satisfy whoever put this curse on me.  


** I suffered from acne from the age of 12 to the age of 20. It was very 
   severe. My back and face were covered in infected spots which were very
   painful.

   After trying all the antibiotics, creams and lotions available I put my
   foot down and insisted that I be referred to see the senior dermatologist
   at the local hospital.

   After persuasion he placed me on Roaccutane (retinoic acid). The tablets
   are the strongest drug available for the treatment of acne. The side
   effects are not very nice. However, within 16 weeks all my spots had
   completely gone. I came  off the treatment 1.5 years ago and I have not
   had any spots since. 

   The treatment is successful in 90 % of all cases. 



   
-- 
          ****************************************************
          *      Graham Wilson      *  lsg001@uk.ac.cov.cck  *
          *     LL.B.  Law  III     *  Coventry  University  *
          ****************************************************
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: drand@spinner.osf.org (Douglas Rand)
Subject: Re: Baclofen
Organization: Open Software Foundation
	<j+tnhc.lindae@netcom.com>
Date: 10 Sep 92 10:48:31

In article <j+tnhc.lindae@netcom.com> lindae@netcom.com () writes:

   >GABA is Gamma-Amino-Butyric-Acid, an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the
   >brain and spinal cord.  Baclofen is a GABA-b receptor agonist, meaning
   >
   >Does this help?
   >
   A bit too technical for me...but thanks anyhow...

I'll try.  If you wanted to keep metal from being corroded with acid,
then you'd cover it with something to keep the acid away,  right?  He's
saying that baclofen keeps a chemical in your brain and spinal cord
from its normal action,  and that the effect of this is to keep one
from being spastic.
--
Douglas S. Rand <drand@osf.org>		OSF/Motif Dev.
Snail:         11 Cambridge Center,  Cambridge,  MA  02142
Disclaimer:    I don't know if OSF agrees with me... let's vote on it.
Amateur Radio: KC1KJ
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: buick@belay (Patrick D. Buick)
Subject: Re: Doctor's hours
Organization: Belay Enterprises Inc. Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:18:28 GMT

In article <BtsF5x.K1G@beach.csulb.edu> sichermn@beach.csulb.edu (Jeff Sicherman) writes:
>In article <16205@pitt.UUCP> km@cs.pitt.edu (Ken Mitchum) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.014751.9295@lowton.rn.com- mark@lowton.rn.com (Mark Powell) writes:
>>-
>>-My girlfriend took up a House Officer position, here in the UK,
>>-3 weeks ago. Her hours are completely ludicrous. 
>>-   Has anyone any observations on what this sort of stint would
>>-actually do to someone.
>>
>>Yes. It will probably turn her into a doctor.

Pity.. Pity... the poor girl... ruined like that... what
disparaging comments... :-) :-)  <-these are smileys for the humour impaired!

>>
>
>  Very cute and cavalier response. But you are right, there will probably
>be no long lasting effects on her other than progress towards her professional
>credentials.
>
>Flame On
>
>  The important and serious question is what being examined and treated by
>people suffering from potentially extreme fatigue is doing to the patients
>and what risk they are subject to by this absurd practice that appears to
>have more relation to fraternity initiation than the teaching or practice
>of medicine.
>
>Flame Off
>
>
>-- 
>Jeff Sicherman
>up the net without a .sig


-- 
==========================================================
Patrick D. Buick EMT, EET  | Internet: buick%belay@uunet.uu.net
Belay Enterprises Inc.     | Internet: buickp@cuug.ab.ca
Calgary, Alberta, Canada   | UUCP:...!calgary!pixel!belay!buick
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: "Incompetent doctors"
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:03:54 GMT
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA

In article <1992Sep9.150238.20902@cs.rochester.edu> fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) writes:
}Aha, I see the old discussion of student health/military doctors is back!
}Rather than expose my prejudices right away, I'll cite my impressions in
}a number of institutions:

And not draw ANY conclusions from the fact that when the President of the US
of A goes to a military hospital he takes his own physician with him!
Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.psychology
From: km@cs.pitt.edu (Ken Mitchum)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: CFIDS and Lyme
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:20:37 GMT
Reply-To: km@cs.pitt.edu (Ken Mitchum)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <1992Sep7.150907.16874@equator.com> jod@equator.com (John Setel O'Donnell) writes:

>I submit that your position is a despicable mischaracterization.
>Perhaps this makes you feel comfortable with your position.  Perhaps
>this allows you to ignore the difficulty of properly diagnosing Lyme,
>and the disastrous consequences of mistreatment or misdiagnosis.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Did I every say anything
about ignoring the difficulty of prperly diagnosing Lyme? Quite
the contrary - I specifically pointed out that the doctors Gordon
and I were labelling as quacks were those whose every patient gets
the diagnosis of Lyme, and who get treated with multiple courses
of antibiotics without ever rethinking the diagnosis or considering
something else. I would submit that those doctors are the ones who
are ignoring the difficulty of properly diagnosing the disease,
since they take the easy (and lucrative) approach of labelling
everyone as having the disease.

>And Gordon (and now Ken) are
>joining up to "manage public hysteria" and join in that high
>intellectual exercise, the ad-hominem attack, to justify the
>mainstream position.  Boo.

Look - either read my postings and respond to what I say, or
don't post. I critized the few doctors who are making megabugs
swindling people and you respond with a personal diatribe
somehow insinuating that I am part of some group opposed to
research and also responsible for personally screwing you.
This newsgroup ostensibly is for discussion of medical issues,
not for ranting and raving. Go elsewhere.

 -km



Newsgroups: sci.med
From: yazz@locus.com (Bob Yazz)
Subject: Re: Access to substances
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 04:59:33 GMT

Keith.Kontowicz@f101.n154.z1.fidonet.org (Keith Kontowicz) writes:

| DP>  To: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
| 
| DP> HR> 1.  Why cannot nutritional supplements make any claim to efficacy? 
| DP> We
| DP> HR> are seeing publications in the refereed medical literature about
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
| DP> HR> desirable effects of "megadoses" of vitamin E, and substantial
| DP> amounts
| DP> HR> of beta carotene. 
| 
| DP> Could you point me to these publications?  I would very much
| DP> like 
| DP> to read some of them.  Thank you in advance for all replies. 
| 
| If you want to see publications that promote a lot of nutritional supplements
| pick up some of the body building magazines on the market today.  Muscle & 
| fitness magazine is the biggest offender.

Talk about someone who needs a "smart" drug.

The poster requested publications in the refereed medical literature
concerning vitamin E and beta carotene -- a perfectly intelligent
request.

I assure you that "Muscle and Fitness" magazine is not a refereed medical
journal.
-- 

"You can put lipstick on a hog, and call it 'Monique', but it's still a pig."

-- Ann Richards, the wildly popular, Harley Riding Governor of Texas
Newsgroups: sci.med