HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:55:35 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Amy Grant, music, morals

Lora said something about it being refreshing to see a loving married
couple in Amy Grant's videos.  However, one of the things for which
Amy has come under fire is that the man she is frolicking with in these
videos is not her husband.  While I certainly understand that one can
act a part and not violate a marriage covenant, I think we should
be careful when making statements about this.  True, the *situation*
is implied to be a married couple enjoying each other's company, but
we ought not to impute to that performance a true Christian witness,
because any secular actor and actress could do the same.

I like Amy's old stuff better than her new stuff, but I don't think it
is fair to attack her for expanding her audience.  I wish there was a
way to get non-Christians to listen to Michael Card, Maranatha, and other
explicitly Christian artists, but I am pleased when they like Amy Grant,
Michael W. Smith, Kathy Triccoli, the Imperials, and Marilyn McCoo's last
solo effort.  It gives me a chance to talk about Christ with people who
might not otherwise be interested in such a conversation.  (BTW, I
liked Marilyn McCoo's record, but I was disappointed to see her reunited
with the 5th Dimension, singing "Age of Aquarius"--apparently without
any idea of what that song represents to many of her Christian listeners.
However, the lyrics on the album "The Me Nobody Knows" are flat-out
Christian.)

So I guess I would have to be wary of condemning the entire body of work
of an artist or an artist per se for a few songs.  I could understand if
the artist sang songs that *denigrate* Christ, but singing some songs that
aren't explicitly *about* Christ doesn't qualify for excommunication in
my book.
        Love INC,
                 --Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: fusco@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Andrew Fusco)
Subject: Re: US Politicians Twisting Scripture
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:16:28 GMT

Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:

>Michelle,
>The story is not true.  According to CURRENT BIOGRAPHY (1986) Jesse
>Jackson was ordained a Baptist minister in June 1968.

>I have read that Jackson has never been a pastor.  He as always worked
>in the civil rights movement and other similar movements.  That may be
>the germ of fact from which the story that he was never ordained grew.

Sadly, I'm afraid this info justifies my suspicions. Jackson was always
hanging on the coattails of Martin Luther King. It isn't so surprising
to find that Jackson was ordained in June, 1968 - only two months after
King was murdered, in April. He obviously figured himself to be King's
successor, so he'd better get that "Reverend" in front of his name.

-ACF
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:03:46 EDT
From:         "Patrick Scott" <PSCOTT@SUVM.BITNET>

Subject:   Psychology

Jesse:  No disagreements with you at all regarding the idea that
the field of psychology does not attempt to provide some sort of
epistemological framework.  If anything, the framework it implicitly
provides is one where man is seen as the source of all solutions to
"maladaptations" and "sin" is viewed merely as an unfortuante byproduct
of socialization into certain religious or cultural mores.

But, I still stand by my earlier point.  Empirical research that attempts
to describe the relationship between two or more variables, or that attempts
to assess factors that help to explain a given phenomenon should not be
considered as witchdoctory - it might be probablistic, it might even
be causal (experiments, by permitting control over certain variables,
provide a basis for making causal inferences), and it might even be
tied to a larger theoretical framework - supporting or disconfirming that
framework - or it may be, as you mentioned, merely descriptive.  But
all of these things are more than witchdoctory.

However, when it all comes down, the bottom line is this:  Christ can
change the human heart, and because of Him, we are new creatures.  In
my opinion, the best clinical psychology can do is provide coping
mechanisms.  Clinical psych. may provide band aids - and sometimes
good ones at that - but it can never provide a new heart.

                                                      Patrick
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: your recent trip
Date: 30 Jul 92 12:48:19 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Ian,

     If you are able to, tell us a little about your recent trip.  How
did you find things?  What is the LORD doing there that He showed you?
                                           Peace, Zane.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:46:15 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Multiple Personalities
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU

Does anyone know of a person with Multiple Personalities that is in the
Bible? I really would like to read and understand more about it, since
some of you believe that it is not demon related.

************************************************************************
*  Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."*
*  Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3    *
*  Computer Programmer/Analyst                                         *
************************************************************************
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:03:41 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: trying to read Prophet
              22 Jul 1992 11:47:05 CDT from <JRALLS@TRINITY.EDU>

JoEllen:

I don't mean to be critical, but if I wanted to read Prophet, I would
just go to the bookstore and buy it.  (It's only $11.95, after all--
and, since I've read it--I work in the bookstore and "borrowed it out"
during lunch hours--I can guarantee you it is money well spent.  Around
here, I wouldn't even *try* to get a Christian novel through a regular
library (the public ones have a hold list a mile long, and the University...
don't make me laugh.)

If you actually can't find it in a bookstore, I can buy it and ship it to
you from the store, if you have a Visa/MC number.  (We charge shipping
plus $1.00 for the service.  If you like, I can get the exact figures this
week.  Let me know.)

                                 Love INC,
                                          ---Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: systematic theology
Date: 25 Jul 92 09:53:21 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

"Our Lord had no design of constructing a system of truth in intellectual
forms.  The truth of the moment in its relation to Him, THE TRUTH, was what
He spoke.  He spoke out of a region of realities which He knew could only be
suggested - not represented - in the forms of intellect and speech."

                                                 George MacDonald

"Christ never suggests that it is necessarily the most efficient, intelligent
or fully developed person who is most fit for eternal life, or most pleasing
to God - that is one of the most foolish illusions of the natural man.  His
thoughts are not our thoughts; nor His values our values.  It is far better,
says Christ, to go lame and blind into heaven than to be very capable and
clear-sighted and sure of yourself, to make others stumble, and end on the
rubbish heap."
                                                 Evelyn Underhill

"Wake up O sleeper...and Christ will shine on you!"

                                                    Peace, Zane.
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X-Organization: University of Prince Edward Island
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 20 Jul 1992 20:58:00 -0400
From:         Lora Harris <LHARRIS@UPEI.CA>
Subject:      "At the heart of world history"

A reading from Karl Barth for the Monday after Trinity 5.

Jesus came and stood among his disciples, and said to them, 'Peace be with
you'.  He who set himself among his disciples on that day thus takes the
central place, ascending the throne which rightly sets him at the heart of
world history.  For all men, all peoples, all times, all the earth, for the
visible and invisible world, Jesus breathed on the disciples, bringing and
creating peace.

        On that day Jesus, cruxified and risen, took in his place with
authority in the midst of the whole human race - the human race which is
sometimes glad and rejoicing, sometimes mortally afflicted  - among the wise
and foolish, the overconfident and the fearful, the religious and the
irreligious, in so much as he is Lord of all.  Among all natural sicknesses
and catastrophes, all wars and revolutions, among progress and stagnation,
among the ebb and flow of all human affliction whether innocent or guilty;
among all these he showed and revealed himself as he who was and is and ever
shall be.  'Peace be with you!' and he showed them his hands and his side.
Among so many herbs, poisonous herbs, this seed was sown that day, and it is
ripening for the harvest.

        This is what we believe: What happened on that day was and remains the
centre around which everything else is moving, from which everything comes, and
to which everything is leading. There are many lights, true and apparent, clear
and clouded; this is the one that will shine longest: even when all the others
shall have had their time and gone out.  For everything has its time but God's
love, which motivated and expressed itself in the resurrection of Jesus Christ
from the dead, lasts for ever.  Because of this event there is no reason for
despair, there is every reason for hope, even when reading the paper with all
its worrying and frightening news, even in the multiple disturbances which we
call world history.  For in very fact Jesus, the only great Mediator between
God and man, risen from the dead, takes his place in the centre of his
community, in the centre of everyone's life, of world history.  And it was as
he was leaving this world that he uttered the first and final word, 'Peace'.


From: "From the Fathers to the Churches: Daily Spiritual Readings "
      Editor, Brother Kenneth CGA
      Collins Liturgical Publications, Icehouse One - 401
      151 Union Street, San Francisco, CA 94111-1299
      copyright 1983 William Collins and Sons Ltd.
      ISBN 0-00-599749-6
      BV30.F76 1987 242'2 87-15090
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:36:12 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Practical witchcraft

Another member writes:

>Witchcraft is a controversial example to have used in this newsgroup, but
>it was a straightforward example, not a joke.  And it doesn't bother me:
>Dan has the right to pass on his religion to others, and it sounds like
>he is very careful to ensure that new members of his coven know what they're
>getting into before they join.

"Controversial" is a polite way to speak about the sin of rebellion. Maybe
it's the idea that sin doesn't seem to bother people too much anymore that
has stirred me up a little. I do want to be careful and not become the
"self-righteous hypocrite," but I also want to be careful to hate sin and
be jealous for the Glory of God as was Phineas in Exodus who speared the
Israelite prince and his whore in the presence of the camp. Sin in the
camp caused the Israelites to lose a battle when led by Joshua.

The notion that anyone is "very careful to ensure that new members of his
coven know what they're getting into before they join" is utterly ridiculous!
Read John 10. The devil is a liar, robber, theif, destroyer etc. His only
concern is the destruction of lives. The only instruction a witch gives a
so called new member to a coven is instruction in rebellion. It's all a lie.

Tom Brewer
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X-Envelope-to: christia@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: VCHAI, DAVID, CHRISTIA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 20 Jul 1992 12:03:00 EDT
From:         Vicky <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      David & Vicky
X-To:         richmond@utdallas.edu, christia@ASUACAD.BITNET

D>Hi guys,

D>You may have noticed that Vicky (the List Minor) & I were really active
 >on the list...

   V>Remember how we were asking questions about each other for a while?

D>.. and then both sort of dropped off. W-e-l-l, there's a
 >reason for that. (-:

D>Last March we started sending private e-mail to one another. Then we
 >started sending postcards & letters. Then we started talking on the
 >phone.  S-o-o-o... (-:

D>About 2 weeks ago the conversations started getting really serious.
 >We began to question whether GOD might be causing something to happen
 >between us, so we decided to begin seeking His will about the matter.

   V>  We were trying to be practical about the whole thing (or rather,
       David was  :-)  ).

D>Last Sunday night, while praying for a special anointing for evangelism,
 >my pastor had a word of knowledge for me, saying that GOD was about to
 >send me a "helpmate" who also would have the same anointing. My pastor
 >_did_not_know_ about the discussions Vicky & I were having!

D>When I told Vicky about it, she got ecstatic.

   V>  Yes, you should have seen my reaction!  :-)  I couldn't believe
       God actually answered my prayers to the letter!

D> It turns out that she had
 >been praying that, if GOD really had a hand in this, that He would give
 >_me_ a word of confirmation _directly_through_ my pastor.

   V>  Of course, _writing_ this doesn't seem exciting, but boy, were we
       excited!  :-)

D>So, the conclusion of this story is:

   It looks like Vicky & I will be having a long future together!

   (-: (-: (-:

   V>  Yup!  :-)  :-)  :-)

D>Just out of curiosity, has anything like this ever happened on
 >Christia before?


In Him,
        David  & Vicky
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:54:32 EDT
From:         Julie Nott <STR008@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prayer Request

Brenda:

I will pray for you and your daughter.  I, too am a new subscriber and have
been just sitting back reading all of the posts to get a good idea of what
exactly is going on.  I am a new "bitnet user", I guess you could say, and
still don't know everything there is to know about all of these "lists".

I had a similar situation with my own mother.  When I decided at the age of
11 to move from living with my mother (my parents had been divorced since I
was 2) to living with my father, she totally rejected me.  She had hardly
anything to do with me during the years with my father.  Through many
years of growing up and circumstances, etc. etc. etc. I didn't invite her
to my high school graduation.  To this day, she holds that against me.
This could be a long story, maybe later I will bore the list with my life
story and how it has affected (and still is) my walk with Christ and my
relationship with my husband.

I will also keep your ex-husband (I presume) in my prayers.

New subscriber,  Julie
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: violence
Date: 21 Jul 92 08:12:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: SAUPM00.920721.105820.SAT.FACN34B
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

"This is the only commendable kind of violence: to force God, and take life
from God by force.  He knows who perseveres firmly (or violently), and he
yields and grants to them.  For God delights to be conquered in this way."

                                               Clement of Alexandria
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:31:59 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 7/24
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

"In my vision at night I looked.  There in front of me was someone who looked
like a human being.  He was coming with clouds in the sky.  He came near God,
who has been alive forever.  And he was led to God.  The one who looked like a
human being was given the power to rule.  He was also given glory and royal
power.  All people, nations and men who spoke every language will serve him.
His rule will last forever.  His kingdom will never be destroyed" (Daniel
7:13,14).

"I tell you, in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right
hand of God, the Powerful One.  And you will see him coming in clouds in the
sky" (Matthew 26:64).

"I looked and there before me was a white cloud.  Sitting on the white cloud
was One who looked like a Son of Man.  He had a gold crown on his head and a
sharp sickle in his hand" (Revelation 14:14).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:07:59 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Remarriage after Divorce?
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              "JADETW01@ULKYVX.BITNET" at Jul 28, 92 3:55 pm

It is my personal opinion and counsel that if you have received forgivness
for the divorce (all divorce being against the will of God in my opinion),
then you are forgiven and can rely on the Grace of God to start again..

A church should in no way ostracise you for the fact that you may be
divorced. You may be forgiven by God, but in the flesh the situation
is irretrievable or irreconceivable.. It is up to God to judge the amount of
effort that you and your partner put into keeping the marriage togethor (not
the church!!)..

In my opinion, if you are ostracised by any religious body because of your
divorce, then find another... If you are feeling condemned about your
divorce then it may be because of two reaons..

1) The matter has not yet been put right with God (see above on forgivness)
   If you have asked for forgivness and repented, then God will not condem
   and accuse you for it any more..

2) You are continuing to be accused by satan, and not God.. (hence you can
   tell satan that you answer to God, not him, and to keep his big nose out
   of the situation.)

Note that this is not a license to get married and get divorced every
year because the cutsies have warned off.. Marriage is for LIFE!, However
we are not perfect, and we can rely on the Grace of God to pick ourselves
up, find forgivness and acceptance and go on..


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:33:27 CST
From:         Tom Purcell <GE0110@SIUCVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      marriage, divorce, etc.....

I do not claim to have an answer to the dilemma faced when one seeks
to develop positions on the above issues.  In attempting to think
through the matter, however, I have come to recognize that one must
deal with the fundamental question of "what constitutes a marriage"
as well as what to do with divorce.  The fact is that what is and
is not a marriage and/or a divorce are matters of civil law as well
as religious concepts.  What is allowed and/or considered a marriage
and/or divorce changes with cultures and with time.  Some approach
this matter by talking about "marriage" and "divorce", etc. by
separating the religious concepts from the civil ones, leading
one to a possible conclusion that an "annulment" is possible if there
never was a "marriange in the sight of God" or to a conclusion that
common-law marriages are real marriages "in the sight of God" in the
absence of civil ceremony.

I cannot resolve this problem for everyone - it has been dificult for
me to deal with it for myself - but as you work through your own
position, recognize that civil definitions and Christian ones *MAY* not
be the same nor the same in all cultures nor the same in all times.
It may not be appropriate to simply assume the civil definitions
in working out one's religious dogma on this topic.

Can any of you more learned Christians enlighten us?
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 03:16:54 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Book recommendation

I have not yet read _ The Prophet _ but I have read Peretti's two
previous books, _ This Present Darkness _ and _ Piercing the
Darkness _.  I have just read a new book that is in some ways similar
to those two books:  _ Hawk's Flight _ by Carol Chase (New York: Baen
Books, 1991 $4.95 paperback.)  It will not become the bestseller that
Peritti's books have become because it is not set in our universe,
with a thinly veiled ACLU as one of the villains, and individuals
who, if they do not represent specific prominent real people are
composites of prominent real people who oppose Christian values in
our society.  However, the basic idea of conflict between angels and
demons intersecting conflict between humans who serve God and humans
who serve the demonic gods is there.  This book is a fantasy novel
set in an entirely different universe than our own.  (This means you
will find it in the science fiction and fantasy section of a large
secular bookstore, but probably not in a religious bookstore.)  God
is not called God, and there appears to have been no Incarnation, but
any Christian who reads it will see the parallels.  When the heroes
are beset by the villains--human and demonic--they can get help, and
even direct angelic intervention, by praying and singing hymns.  On
the cover, under the title, are the words "It's not easy being Cho-
sen" and God has chosen some of the characters to do His work in the
world.

The author is a Christian and was at one time part of a writers group
of Christians who wanted to write science fiction and fantasy.  One
thing I like about the book, apart from the fact that it is a good
story, is that it is not explicitly Christian.  It is just a fantasy
novel, published by a regular fantasy and science fiction publisher.
However, it portrays a view of the universe that includes God, an-
gels, demons, and spiritual warfare, a view that many of its readers
are unlikely to encounter elsewhere.  (The Narnia books did the same
thing, but they had more explicit Christian parallels.  There is no
contact between our universe and the universe of _ Hawk's Flight _.)
It will not convert anyone, but it may prepare the soil for someone
else to sow the seed.  If you read fantasy at all, or even if you
don't actively dislike fantasy, I suggest you try the book.

Marty Helgesen