HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: The Thirteenth Tribe
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:50:47 GMT
Keywords: khazars

In article <1993Jan26.205449.203497@uctvax.uct.ac.za>, naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
> > Ah, to naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za (Colin) who writes on the subject 
> > of Arthur Koestler's book:
> > 
> >>Of course the neo-Nazis love to claim that modern Jews are descended 
> >>from any one but the Israelites. 
> > 
> > I suggest that he keep the Nazi and neo-Nazi thread away from this
> > discussion. Koestler, while perhaps not a good historian, was a fine
> > writer and, with his Hungarian-Jewish background, was as far from
> > Nazism as it can only be imagined.
> > 
> > Jeremi
> 
> I wasn't actually referring to Koestler's book. What I had in mind was the
> habitual statement made by the neo-Nazi group the AWB that the modern Jews are 
> of Mongolian descent.
> 
> (As the Manchurian said to the Jew: "Funny, you don't look Mongolian.") 

As someone here once pointed out, in Israel there are sometimes
wall scrawlings related to the Khazars.  I don't recall if the
poster said they were from Palestinians or some Sephardi
group.


		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Re: Aromdee's statistics
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 12:58:51 GMT

In: <1k6erb$973@agate.berkeley.edu>
schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) writes:

>In article <1993Jan27.011848.17965@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
>arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>
>>Why _can't_ it be just luck?
>>
>>After all, there had to be _some_ religion which survived.  They can't _all_
>>go away.
>
>Assuming that the survival of Judaism is just luck, then the argument that
>they can't _all_ go away depends on the survival probability as a function of
>time elapsed.  I'm not exactly sure how you'd go about it.  Possibly one
>could assume a model (e.g. probability of disappearance per unit time is a
>constant, which I think is probably an oversimplification), measure the
>observed average religion lifetime, find the time constant, and then calculate
>the probability of Judaism's surviving. Of course, that doesn't really address
>the issue either, since what you really want to know is what is the
>probability
>that *no* religion will survive (say) 2600 years (to pick a number).  After
>all, if it's just luck, then why can't they _all_ go away?

This sounds too good to be true.   :-)

>>(Besides, if it wasn't luck, the same argument would imply that Christianity
>>and Islam have deeper meanings than Judaism.)
>
>Actually, not at all, since neither is as old as Judaism, and your argument
>above implies that you think that the probability of a religion's survival
>is a monotonically decreasing function of its age.

To take the whole argument seriously, and treating it as a statistical
problem, we cannot  use any claims specific to a  certain religion, it
being the "true"  religion etc.  Thus we have to  regard what is known
these days  as Orthodox Judaism, as  a branch of Judaism  of which the
other branches  fared less well.   So in  that sense "Judaism"  is the
same age as Christianity, as both,  at approximately the time of Jesus
were Jewish sects,  two among many.  That  Christianity developed then
quite differently from that other  sect is irrelevant to *the present*
argument.  Rabbi Yohanan ben Zaqai can be regarded as the "founder" of
Orthodox Judaism (which  also changed considerably since  his time) in
the same  way as Paul  founded Christianity.   By just perhaps  half a
neck Paul is older than Yohanan,  for all practical purposes they were
contemporaries.

I  wish  to repeat  that  all  this  is not  meant  in  any way  as  a
theological  discussion,  I  was   just  picking  up  the  statistical
reasoning of those who posted before me on this issue.

>                        Richard Schultz

                         Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Cleaning up SCJ
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:09:58 GMT

friedenb@boswell.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:

> I am personally opposed to moderation.

I couldn't agree with you more.  Anyone who knows me would
tell you that I never exercise moderation.  Never.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 02:20:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan28.161456.11636@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs922177@ariel.yorku.ca (DANIEL T FARKAS) writes:
>>If there were no deeper meaning to Judaism, and no deeper meaning to any
>>religion, we would _still_ say "oh, look how well <pick religion> has
>>survived", simply because there has to be some religion that does so.  So
>>survival can't possibly tell us anything about it.
>  Firstly, there doesn't have to be one religion to survive.  They could all
>have died out, and others started in their place.

That happened anyway.  After all, there were already other religions around
when Abraham became the first Jew.  These religions have died out by now, and
Judaism started in their place....

>>(Besides, if it wasn't luck, the same argument would imply that Christianity
>>and Islam have deeper meanings than Judaism.)
>  Actually, both those religions were started after Judaism.  Christianity
>around the year 0, and Islam many centuries later.  But it's more than that. 
>It's easy for them to survive.  They're in charge of themselves.  They live
>under their own rule, and have their own homelands.

This one's easy.  "It cannot just be luck that Christianity (or Islam), out of
all the world's religions, managed to be in charge of itself and to live under
its own rule for hundreds of continuous years.".  A Christian or Muslim could
easily point to the very _existence_ of long-term Christian/Muslim self rule as
a "miracle" that "shows" there is something deeper in his religion.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Mabat News on Schola - Why Gone?
Date: 26 Jan 93 07:36:14 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1k0uriINNde2@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@gypsum.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>
>SCOLA's major funding comes from an Arab News Agency (See the credits in SCOLA
>for the exact name).  This is why the reading of the KORAN is broadcast from 
>Mecca *every night* on SCOLA.  
>
>Does it surprise anyone that the first budget problem, and Israeli news is the
>first to go?  Why not put the funds from the reading of the KORAN to the 
>broadcasting of International news (as is the function of SCOLA)?

As one who receives SCOLA, I have to say that I am very offended by this
very biased remark.
 
International news is broadcasted 24 hours a day, which gives approximately
a half hour to the 40-48 countries (including Poland, China, Russia, Germany,
France and Canada) and is not even broadcasted that same day.  WITHIN THAT
time frame only **15 minutes** is devoted to readings from the QUORAN.  Why
should it bother you that this is for the benefit of the Muslim viewers whom
also financially support SCOLA?

It appears to me that the problem stems from the fact that there was not
enough interest from the viewers to continue broadcasting news from
Israel.
 
Anisa

Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:26064 soc.culture.arabic:6911 soc.culture.china:35150
From: martillo@nero.clearpoint.com (Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: ERETZ YISRAEL (was Re: deportation)
Keywords: Canaanites
Date: 24 Jan 93 14:08:10 GMT
Organization: Clearpoint Research Corp., Hopkinton Mass.

In article <1993Jan11.153952.203449@uctvax.uct.ac.za> naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:

>> The Canaanites are people who occupied what is now called Syria, Lebanon, 
>> Palestine, and parts of Iraq. It is also beleived that Babylon (Bab-El) was
>> actually founded by Canaanites, since they were the first people to name city
>> gates after their Gods. It is also beleived that the Phoenicians who at one
>> time occupied the coasts of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and parts of turkey are
>> part of the Canaanite tribes.

>False. The term "Canaanites" literally means people from Canaan (western
>ancient Israel). 

The etymology for Kna`an seems much more complicated.  The root
meaning of Kna`ani seems to be merchant.  Kna`an may be a
back-formation.  When Semitic speakers came into the region, they
asked the local people who they were.  The local people designated
themselves as merchants or Kna`anim.  The Semitic speakers then
concluded that the region must be Kna`an.

A similar confusion occurred when the Portugese first had contact with
the Chinese through Chinese merchants in the South China seas.  The
Portugese asked their local contacts who they were.  The local
contacts called themselves sengloi or merchants, and for about a
century and a half the Portugese used a word derived from sengloi to
mean Chinese.

>> A.Faris
>Colin


-- 
Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

The article represents noone's opinions other than the author's.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:02:01 GMT

faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
> khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) said:

> > I have never seen an Orthodox person that would say that Reformism is just
> > fine and that he/she has no problem with it.
> 
> As I've said before, and I'll say again, you probably won't see this. For
> Orthodoxy to admit that *Reform* (not Reformism, not Reformed) is fine, is to
> admit that their approach is wrong. This will never happen. Different lemmas.

I think we've discussed this one before.  If we're all being honest,
we must realize that the feeling is mutual (or is that reciprocal?).

-Don Gertler
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Davidic Lineage
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 04:01:21 GMT

In <1993Jan25.220636.6510@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:

>Interestingly, in "The Jews of Muslim Spain" there is
>some discussion about the roots of various communities
>of Jews in Spain, and in connection with this it is
>stated that the Abrabanel (Abravanel) family tradition
>was that it was Davidic, descended from Judaean
>nobles who were brought to Spain at the time of the destruction
>of the Second Temple.

But ought we to accept the Abrabanel (or any other, including that of
various suggested candidates, past, present, or future) family's
tradition of its Davidic descent without additional evidence?  And
even if we do accept the family's claim, an individual today would
have to prove descent from that family - family names can be changed.

Of course we don't have to even take seriously the claims of someone
whose mother's husband (not his father) was claimed to be Davidic.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          This article is supplied without longbox
 |__/__/_/        and uses recycled 100% words, characters and ideas.
 |warren@         
/ nysernet.org    
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin)
Subject: Re: educating gideon
Organization: Collaborative Information Technology Research Institute
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:29:41 GMT

lordSnooty@cup.portal.com (Andrew - Palfreyman) writes:

>jewish settlers in the west bank and jerusalem (btw, the
>state of israel will not release data on the total number of
>houses built in any year to the outside world, despite
>the gouging of ten billion bucks from american pockets
>last year, for instance. rather rude, if you ask me.).

Gouging? Do I take your use of this word as the first evidence
of your bias and agenda?

>however, the subsequent trial revealed
>this to be an outright lie, and in fact they had been told by the
>israeli ministry of housing to undertake this action.

Does this mean that The Ministry of Housing knew that the Israelis
had apparently not bought the house and advised them to say so?
Or does it mean that the Ministry was misled?
Or was there a claim to the house which was not considered
legal by the court?

>this august body is financing many such groups in similar activities,
>it turns out. pure monty python; pure fascism, too.
This last statement is yours, or something which the holy TV show
claimed?

>all this appears bizarre indeed, and, were it not for the human impact, i
>would be grinning very broadly indeed. 
Why would have you be grinning? I find this bizarre.

>i guess the twisted lesson to be
>learned here is that if you teach people first-hand about ghettoes and
>fascism, they will be doomed to re-inflict these disasters on others
>in their turn.

Twisted is the operative word.
Your brain has obviously departed this world.
Are we to assume that murder victims will murder using your logic?

Your assertions reveal your anti-semitic motives. 
Your real agenda is `the Jews are a cursed people'.
You stand condemned.
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kosherizing Recipes
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:04:28 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)

In article <1k6evl$981@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet (Richard Schultz) writes:
>While we're on the subject, I have noticed that a lot of Mexican
>recipes call for lard.  Is there any great loss in replacing the lard
>with, say, margarine?

I've heard that lard is supposedly the richest of cooking oils.  I
know of people who swear by lard potato chips (eg, Utz hand-cooked).
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Send a fax to the Almighty!!!
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 10:50:51 +0100
Organization: "The Private Site of Manfredo Tichauer"

I've just read it in the news 

BEZEK,  the israeli telephone company, installed a fax next to the Kotel
(Wailing Wall) where everybody can send a prayer or petition to God, and
an employee of the company puts them  afterwards in the gaps between the 
stones of the wall.  The best of it: this service is free of charge! The
fax number is:

                        (++ 972 2) 61.22.22





 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Lot and 'Incest' (was Who did Cain Marry?)
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 09:38:32 GMT

In: <1993Jan21.161524.6397@cbnews.cb.att.com>
ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) discusses incest, and says at
     the end.

>In article <4658@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

   *****   I am skipping everything till Art states:  *******

>I don't have a good dictionary definition of incest, but it includes
>sexual relations between a parent and child as well as between
>brother and sister.  Perhaps it extends to some or all of the
>prohibited relations we read on Yom Kippur.
>
>In particular, Lot's daughters had to get Lot drunk before having
>sexual intercourse with him;  that indicates they knew it was wrong
>at that time.

It lends itself to another explanation as well.   After living there for so
long, Lot had been influenced by the local mores and had become a "Sodomite"
himself, i.e. one not interested sexually in women.   :-)

>Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dattier@ddsw1.mcs.com (DWT)
Subject: Re: Thirteen tribes :)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:18:35 GMT
Organization: Contributor Account at ddsw1, Chicago, Illinois  60657
Keywords: qwerty

naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za wrote in <1993Jan26.141614.203492@uctvax.uct.ac.za>:

| As for the number 10. The two most likely possibilities are that the Levites
| among the northern tribes are being counted as "lost" or Menasseh should be
| split into East and West Menasseh. (Or perhaps even Simeon was counted as lost
| since they spent most of their history twiddling their thumbs way down to the
| south.)

According to II Chronicles 11:13-14, shortly after the Kingdom split most
Levites in the north migrated south rather than live under Jeroboam.  Thus
there would have been very few in the north by the time of the Assyrian
exile.

David W. Tamkin   Box 59297   Northtown Station, Illinois  60659-0297
dattier@ddsw1.mcs.com    CompuServe: 73720,1570    MCI Mail: 426-1818
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic
From: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller)
Subject: Re: Was ARAFAT A GIRL?
Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:25:28 GMT

In article <93022.1833192893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA
writes:

>No, it's not what I had in mind. English (capitalised) refers to the
>nationality, english refers to the language.

It's a slow day so I'll ask the question: what's the name of the dictionary
that renders English with a small "e"?

Norman Miller
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.german
From: fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home)
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
Organization: CompuData Inc.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:55:27 GMT

green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:

>If condemning SS members as accomplices to genocide makes me a bigot,
>I will wear the title with honor.

Nothing new here. It is one of the problems mankind must overcome before we 
can be truly brothers in Schiller's words. "Alle Menschen werden Brueder..."

You should work on that.

>We are not in a court of law. I just get tired of hearing this rubbish
>about how there were what, 3 guilty Germans? No one else knew anything
>or had any responsibility, even member of the SS. And oh yes, some
>US Marines committed rape.

No, this is not a court of law. This is the medium of judgement by 
association or heritage. It is the safe way people of all times have judged 
those who somehow bug them. It is called prejudice in English. 

fred
-- 
W. Fred Rump 	office:	   fred@COMPU.COM     "A man's library is a sort of 
26 Warren St.   home: fr@icdi10.compu.com 	harem" - Emerson (1860) 
Beverly, NJ. 08010                          		 
609-386-6846    bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr   
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:26213 soc.culture.arabic:6947
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Judaism Reading List: Zionism (Pt. VIII)
Date: 24 Jan 1993 14:29:21 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Distribution: soc
NNTP-Posting-Host: soldan.aero.org


	      Selected Sources for Additional Reading on Judaism
		  Part VIII: Zionism and the Birth of Israel
			[Last Change: 21 January 1993]
		     [Last Post: Sat Jan 23 18:39:16 1993]

This message is intended to provide readers of soc.culture.jewish with a list
of references to allow them to learn more about the history of the state of
Israel and what Zionism is. It does not cover current Israeli or
middle-eastern politics.  Discussions of politics are held in
talk.politics.mideast. However, some of the entries on the list should
provide useful background and insight into those discussions.

This list is based primarily on sources obtained during a course on Zionism
taught by Dr. Deborah Lipstadt at UCLA, as well as the "70 books about
Israel 70" section in the _Third Jewish Catalog_. Suggestions for additions
or deletions are welcome, as are *brief* annotations for the entries. I'm
particularly looking for information on the various zionistic movements.

This list is archived in the mail.liberal-judaism info-files area on
israel.nysernet.org [192.77.173.2] and is available for anonymous FTP.  It
may be found in the israel/lists/mail.liberal-judaism/info-files directory.
It may also be obtained by email request to faigin@aero.org.

		    ZIONISM AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF ISRAEL

[Coh75]	Cohen, Naomi. _American Jews and the Zionist Idea_. Ktav. 1975

[Hal76]	Halpern, Ben. _The Idea of a Jewish State_. Harvard University
	Press, 1976

[Her79]	Hertzberg, Arthur. _The Zionist Idea_. Atheneum. 1979.

[Laq72]	Laqueur, Walter. _A History of Zionism_ Schocken Books, New York.
	1972

[Sac77]	Sachar, Howard Morley. _The Course of Modern Jewish History_. Delta.
	1977.

[Sim62]	Simon, Leon. _Selected Essays of Ahad Ha-'Am_ Athenium, 1962.

[Syk73]	Sykes, Christopher. _Crossroads to Israel: 1917-1948_. Midland
	Books. 1973.

                               THE FOUNDERS

[Ben54]	Ben-Gurion, David. _Rebirth and Destiny of Israel_. Philosophical
	Library, New York. 1954.

[Eba72]	Eban, Abba. _My Country: The Story of Modern Israel_. Random House,
	New York. 1972.
	
[Her70]	Herzl, Theodore. _The Jewish State_. Herzl, New York. 1970

[Wei66]	Weitzmann, Chaim. _Trial and Error_. JPS, Philadelphia. Schocken,
	New York.  1966.
	
	
			     ZIONISTIC MOVEMENTS

             (I'm still looking for references in this area)

Please mail additions or corrections to me at faigin@aero.org.

-- 
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
		    "And as they say, the rest is compost"
From: ymor@ilx018.intel.com (Mor Yosi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Challenging Torah Quiz Question
Date: 21 Jan 93 14:21:53 GMT
Organization: Intel Israel (74) Ltd.
NNTP-Posting-Host: ilx057.intel.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Daniel B Moore (dmoore@sales.GBA.NYU.EDU) wrote:
> Who in the book of Genesis was able to do what 
> Abraham
> tried unsuccessfully to do without even trying?

Maybe this refers to Lot, who saved one of the five cities
that HaShem wanted to destroy (Sdom, Amorah, ...) by simply
fleeing there.  (I do not have my Chumash here, and I don't
remember offhand what the name of the city was.)

Avraham, on the other hand, actively tried to bargain with
HaShem to save these cities, and was not successful because
there could not be found ten tzadikim.

				- Yosi

--
Yosi Mor                                Internet: ymor@iil.intel.com

Phone: 972-4-355-654                    Fax: 972-4-355-674
From: sutin@ra.UCSC.EDU (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Fourscore and several years ...
Date: 24 Jan 1993 21:47:06 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: ra.ucsc.edu

In article <1993Jan24.003938.7205@cbnews.cb.att.com>, ask@cbnews (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:
>How did Lincoln come up with that particular phrase?
>I suspect, from the scriptures.

Maybe, but the origin of the phrase is distinctly French.  The only way to
say 87 in French is quatre-vingt-et-sept, which directly translates as
four score and seven.  French has no word for eighty or ninety (although I
believe Belgian has a word for ninety).

Brian Sutin				sutin@lick.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."