HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike@highlite.uucp (Mike Wiik)
Subject: Re: arcologies
Organization: Gotham Communications Research, Laurel, MD
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1992 02:25:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr5.200051.20685@sfn.ORG> cliff@sfn.ORG (R. Cliff Young) writes:
>>mike@highlite.uucp (Mike Wiik) writes:
>>
>>>Ya know, I recently visited the new Reston Village Center for the
>>>first time. It's trying to be real neat. But it's as sterile as the
>>>DC subway. There's the main drag, lined with stores, big sidewalks.
>>>But there's a goddamn road going right thru it. There's similar
>>>places in Europe where they simply don't have cars. They probably
>>>did it here to prevent it from filling up with teen drug addicts.
>
>Actually, it's called the Reston Town Center, and it's an example of a
>planned community (Reston, Virginia--within the DC Metro area) trying
>
>What I don't understand, Mike, is what difference do *you* see between
>"real neat" and "sterile as the DC subway [Metro]"?  The reason they
>have a road running right through it is that they were trying for a
>"Main Street U.S.A." atmosphere--not some neo-utopian future vision.
>--/\/-- R. Cliff Young, SysAdmin, SFN -- cliff@sfn.ORG

Admittedly I'm biased having spent my few first years in Norway and
traveling back to Europe evety year or so till my mid-teens. I recall
fond memories of various cafes and design-for-people type areas in
Norway & Denmark. Places where you could go, get something cheap to
eat and watch people go by for an hour. My limited experience at the
Towne Centre seemed like spend your money quick and get the fuck out.
It's a Mall, I wouldn't call it Main St USA but then again... in any
case I'm not thinking of a neo-utopian future vision but something
which seemed commonplace in my youth ----- in Scandinavia.


	-Mike

-- 
   | o==== . : ... :  :  .     |Mail Me Neat Stuff->POB 3703 Arlington VA 22203
 --@-- . o o o ... O -O- o o : |No disclaimers needed: I actually pay for this.
   |           ... :  :        |-----------------------------------------------
mEssAGE fRoM sPAcE ARt stUdiOs |                 SinGulaRNosC!
From: speth@cats.ucsc.edu (James Gustave)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
Subject: Re: auditory input via electrical connection?
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:41:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: darkstar.32978
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz


<stuff deleted>

>       However, the article also mentioned that a patient must be trained
>to interpret the signals produced by the device.
>-- 
>                       Jason L Saunders [ RouE ]      
>                     email: maupb@csv.warwick.ac.uk

This brings up an interesting concept.... if you have to be trained to
recognize it, then perhaps it wouldn't interfere with your already
functional listening facilities.  Maybe through an implant that receives
ultra/sub-sonice frequencies, we could effectively broaden the human
auditory bandwidth!

In cases where patients have to re-learn to walk after car crashes or such,
the patient is actually using a different set of neural pathways.  So it
would seem that the brain has many more connections that are currently used.

I would like to find out more about this... any body have any hard research
they could cite??

-- 
Jim Speth
speth@cats.ucsc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
From: apearlma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Pearlman)
Subject: Re: arcologies
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 22:26:05 GMT

In article <bruce.702184041@grate> bruce@grate.ugcs.caltech.edu (Bruce J Bell) writes:
>Crime is a more interesting question.  I honestly would like to hear some
>speculation:  what difference would living in an arcology make?  would it
>decrease crime or increase it, and how?  What about homeless types who
>can't pay the rent: how would you keep shantytowns from growing up in the
>vacated greenspace?  (a la "Freejack"...)

There was an apartment built by one of the Futurists, designed for low-income
housing.  The problem was how it saved space.  Lots of narrow spaces for
muggers to hang out at and not be seen.

>And the big question:  if arcologies are so efficient, why hasn't anyone
>taken advantage of this cost-effectiveness?

Several problems:
You'd need a corporation(s) at the center, so as to give all the workers
who live there a job.  Assuming at least a quarter mile cube, that's a hell
of a lot of workers.  Probably only a few companies in the world that can
afford to employ that many.  Sounds.  Most are heavy industries.  Computer
controlled sound negating has come far, but I don't know of many people
who'd like to live with a constant rumbling.  Desire.  Not only do you need
enough workers living there, you need people willing to do it.  The easiest
way to do that, is to start a new company with that as the basis.  But then
you're going to lack the billions of dollars needed.  Safety.  You need
to be able to prevent fires from even thinking about going out of control.
But a lot of safety features can inhibit desire to live there, if it looks
too clean or spartan or it looks like Big Brother is your next door neighbor.

Andy Pearlman
From: motto@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.tech
Subject: Re: arcologies
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:48:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T


So, why aren't people doing arcologies?

The whole concept of exploring arcologies is paradoxical.
As a limited and self-contained, self-sustaining system,
they are contrary to the current expansionist mentality.
The very people need to develop something as new and
innovative as an arcology that would work would be stiffled
by it when completed.

Arcologies are boring.  Everything is built at the same time
and has the same history, the same architecture.  Everyone
works for the same company, etc.  Boring, boring, boring.

Mary
From: mpevans@isis.cs.du.edu (Mark Evans)
Subject: Re: Race is an undefined term...
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 12:02:13 GMT

brlw_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Rebel) writes:

>Not to be picky or anything....but I do believe that genes code for what
>color your skin is and therefore do indirectly determine the "race" of
>the people. I think what you are trying to say is that the labelling and
>segregation of people into certain "racial" categories based on some
>subjective opinion of skin color is purely cultural. I agree with
>this...two people of different "races" as judged by society do not differ
>biologically accept for skin color, making the taboo against interracial
>sex silly.
You could just as easily use blood and tissue typing groups, if factif
you want  to hav an interracial sex taboo this makes a bit more sense
than skin colour. As it is possibly for a baby to prompte an immune
response from the mother, such as when there is a difference of
rhysus blood groups between the two.
If pregnency does not result from sex this is of course irrelevent.

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: Peter A. Cohen <peterco@eff.org>
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Organization: ON Technology, Inc.
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1a2
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1992 15:10:12 GMT

The original story wasn't written by Piers Anthony at all.  The
screenplay was based on a short story by Philip K. Dick, the grandfather
of cyberpunk fiction...

- Peter

+---------------------+----------------------+
|   Peter A. Cohen    |  ON Technology, Inc. |
|   peterco@eff.org   |   155 Second Street  |
|   (617) 876-5122    |  Cambridge, MA 02141 |
| fax: (617) 876-0391 |    Product Support   |
+---------------------+----------------------+
|            ?I have had freedom,            |
|     and I don?t like the health plan.?     |
|               - The Fresh Prince of Bel Air|
+--------------------------------------------+
Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:2039 alt.sex:14062 misc.legal:9142
From: lemon@unssun.nevada.edu (Captain Caveman!!)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: vertual ethiics
Date: 12 Apr 92 03:08:38 GMT
Reply-To: lemon@unssun.UUCP (Captain Caveman!!)
Organization: University of Nevada-Reno

In article <1992Apr10.010642.3812@news.iastate.edu> xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>must we decicde the morality of somthing that as yet is non existint?
>is that nit for thouse of the future to decide?
>there the ones who will have to deal with it.

FIRST:
-----
3 Things:
	1)  Yes we must decic^Hde the morality of something that as yet
		is non-existEnt.
	2)  No, that is nOt for thOSE of the future to decide; it is for
		us, the creators of the technology, to decide.  
	3)  Yes, they are the ones that will have to deal with it.  
		And THAT, my friend, is exactly the point.  

We, as the responsible, intelligent persons that we are (or claim to be)
should strive to answer any and as many as possible questions that may 
have anything to do with the technology that we create.  Progress is great,
indeed it is beautiful, but BLIND progress is erroneous and BEYOND stupid.

As an aside, I would also like to point out that xcz13@isuvax.*'s opinions
on morality with respect to future and/or present VR-morality can be 
directly compared to those who say:
	
	"Why should I care about the Earth's evironment?  Afterall,
	 by the time it's a problem, I'll be long dead, so who 
	 cares?"

I'm not a crazed environmentalist, but at least I do recognize the stupidity
of the above statement, just as I recognize the *UTTER* stupidity of
xcz13@isuvax.*'s statement about VR-morality.

"The difficult we do at once; the impossible takes a little longer."
	-Motto of US Army Corps of Engineers

---John "YAFer" LeMon


      John A. LeMon           "Good my Lord, put your discourse in some frame  
     U. Nevada, Reno              and start not so wildly from my affair."     
       "Wolf Pack"                             --Shakespeare              
 lemon@unssun.nevada.edu        YAFer@GooLand, YAMud Version 2745237571989.1 
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: kcdutt@door.Princeton.EDU (Kevin C. Dutt)
Subject: FAQ please
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 22:49:19 GMT

	I don't want to get any veteran alt.cyberpunk people upset so can  
someone send me a FAQ before I ask about people favorite books, movies, etc.
Also anyone know of good ftp sites to get sf reviews?
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13698 alt.cyberpunk:1994 misc.legal:8965
From: ogi@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I Ogas)
Subject: Re: cp music
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:11:41 GMT

If anyone cares, I interviewed Skinny Puppy (Ogre) last night.

I asked him if he felt that Skinny Puppy was"cyberpunk", and his feelings on 
the "cyberpunk" movement in general.  He cited other bands as being more
consciously and overtly involved with cyberpunk (e.g., Front line Assembly),
but added that Skinny Puppy shared many elements with cyberpunk:  use of
high-tech electronics/video/computers; snarling "punk" attitude; alienation
and anger at huge government and corporate institutions; distress from
out-of-control imploding pop culture; and a general distrust of authority and
anything mainstream.

But he also said that Skinny Puppy was much more personal, "twisted powerful
emotions emerging from my soul", which didn't necessairly follow any social 
agenda.  of course, to me, that sounds exaclt like what i would expect
a cyberpunk to do -- attack the system in an idiosyncratic and personal manner.


Their latest release, IMHO, is one of the best aural landscapes ever
created by anoyone, anywhere -- unrelenting, unique, gripping, terifying,
beautiful.

If anyone would like a transcxript of the interview, I might be persuaded to
type it in and e-mail it to you.

-ogi

Xref: sparky alt.sex:13712 alt.cyberpunk:1996 misc.legal:8974
From: chmilar@Apple.COM (Michael Chmilar)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Date: 7 Apr 92 23:14:44 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

mehawk@reed.edu (Michael Sandy) writes:

>I wonder what sort of guidelines we can get out of this discussion.

>For example:  While there might be commercially available or even
>free access to low resolution simulations of public figures, [...]

>(The "real" in quotes because an accurate simulation of Cybil Sheppard
>wouldn't go out with you either :*) :*)

>What moral rules, and what ship rules would apply to Mr Broccoli, (er. Barclay)
>calling up a sim of Deanna Troi and saying, "Ok, but a little more cleavage..."
>Or perhaps, Wesley calls up Robin Loeffler..., (or vice versa, ever wonder
>how she found out about his birthmark??? ;*)

>mehawk@reed.edu (Michael Sandy)


All of this implies a "dangerous" social situation:  people will only
desire a "perfect" partner, which they can create/modify in virtual reality,
and ignore less perfect "real" people.

This problem already exists today:  we are bombarded by the media with images
of "perfection".  These include "supermodels", airbrushed Playboy nudes, etc.
Characters and relationships are "scripted" in movies and television to turn
out in some ideal fashion (Hollywood prefers the "happy" ending).

People see these images and characters, and then look at real people around
them and say "I don't want this, I want the perfection that I see on
television."  As a result, they do not interact with the real people in
their lives, and are reluctant to form real commitments and relationships.

- Michael Chmilar.  Virtual reality is a hoax.

BTW:  I recently saw a "special edition" of some mag put out by AI Expert
on virtual reality.  I thought, maybe it will contain some entertaining
material.  Then I saw the cover price: $9.95.  Why should I pay this kind of
money to hear some VR snake-oil salesman hype me on his supposed "product"?
Let them pay me to indulge their self-promotion!!!
From: kinnema@wkuvx1.bitnet (Mark Kinney, Attorney at Chaos)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:26:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: wkuvx1.1992Apr13.112610.1320
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <1992Apr10.153409.16862@yang.earlham.edu>, jessec@yang.earlham.edu writes:
>    Now, I don't think it's possible to do that with the contents of every 
> movie or whatever.  I still stick to my point cited above.  But don't be 
> thinking that I subscribe to any kind of simplistic code concerning these 
> things.  You're still free to call me puritanical if you like, but at 
> least give me complex. :-)

I didn't mean to imply that participating in VR violence would turn one into a
psychopath. You also had some good points re: Rocky Horror and such. I'm just
saying that you have to be prepared for the John Hinkley's with VR "Taxi
Driver". It all boils down to psychology.
-- 
Mark Kinney [KINNEMA@WKUVX1.(BITNET)(WKU.EDU)] | Don't just eat a hamburger,
PhoneNet: (502)745-4246	  (Bowling Green, KY)  | eat the HELL out of it!
This has been a test. If this had been an actual emergency, you'd be dead.
Quote of the week: "Now I'm mumbling, and I'm screaming, and I don't know what
	I'm singing." -- "Weird" Al Yankovic, "Smells Like Nirvana"
From: Todd.Cocks@f43.n140.z1.fidonet.org (Todd Cocks)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:11:26 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:140/43 - U of S Computing Se, Saskatoon Sask


 LJR> compromised in this manner.  Eventually live, flesh 
 LJR> and blood actors could become obsolete under a concept
 LJR> like that.  Now you may argue that the performances 
 LJR> would be better for it, but I'm just purist enough
 LJR> to think a human performance represents a greater 
 LJR> accomplishment if nothing else.

I don't know if I really agree with you about that.  Beauty and the Beast was the first animated movie to be nominated for Best Picture this year and there was nary a 'live' actor in the bunch.  When (not if) technology allows the complete and total rendering of actors in a computerized environment, movies will be able to be made completely within a supercomputer.  Imagine the possibilities and how much the price of such a movie could be lowered.  It will be irresistable to the studio -- movie in a box.

Join the Anti-Sig Revolution
Todd

--  
Todd Cocks - via FidoNet node 1:140/22
UUCP: ...!access.usask.ca!weyr!43!Todd.Cocks
Domain: Todd.Cocks@f43.n140.z1.fidonet.org
Standard Disclaimers Apply...
From: rmarsh@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk Rpg's
Date: 17 Apr 92 22:29:32 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <11394@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, ajs90@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Suter AJ) writes:
> Some guy mentioned RIFTS the role playing game. Well rifts in a
> generic thing. There's a big fashion trend in the gaming scene at the
> moment towards games with a cyberpunk flavour. Rifts is one of them as
> is FASA's Shadowrun. I think there is also a Traveller version similar
> ro the Traveller 2300 of a few years back . If anyone is interested in
> cyperpunk rolepplaying then I suggest they get down to there local
> hobbystore and have a word with the staff there. Its the next big
> thing, so the word on the role playing street goes.

CP role-playing is already a big thing, challenging ye olde fantasie in 
many places and topping it in popularity in some. As far as I know the
following are all the Cyberpunk Roleplaying games available today (though
I'm sure there are some I don't know about.

Cyberpunk		(The original R Talsorian RPG)
Cyberpunk 2020		(The updated R Talsorian RPG)
Cyberspace		(Iron Crown Enterprises)
GURPS Cyberpunk		(Steve Jackson Games - a sourcebook for GURPS
			not a stand-alone game system)

Then there are the impure cyberpunk games:

Shadowrun		(FASA I think, this one mixes CP with fantasy, orks
			and elves with c-ware)
Dark Conspiracy		(GDW? This is a dark future game, again mixes high
			technology with mysticism)
Rifts			(Palladium - A cross genre game, also dealing in
			fantasy/dimensional travel/magic/dragons etc.)
TORG			(Another cross-genre game with separate parts of
			the world being different realms. France (I think)
			has become the cyberpapacy.)

Any of the 'pure' CP games are worth a look. I currently use GURPS-CP rules
with the Cyberspace world. 
As for the impure games:
I like the Shadowrun concept, but the system is horrendous.
Dark conspiracy I have never played, but I am biased against it because the
only person I know who GMs it is a terrible GM.
Rifts is a power game, nuff said.
TORG sounds really interesting, but I've never been near enough to give an
opinion with any support.

All this is IMHO, let's not argue about the systems in alt.cp, the place
for that is rec.games.frp, or rec.games.cyber.

> 
> This makes me think though. Arn't Roleplaying games the *origonal* form
> of virtual relality? Where the reality is purely your own thoughts and
> imaginations ( although I do know peaple who indulged in a wide
> variaty of pychotrophics while playing...).
> 
> ps It's cheaper than buying the required hardware.... 

I never thought of it that way, but you're right. Hey, I've been living in
VR for over a decade!
-- 
Robert 'Stumpy' Marsh | Brought to you from the bottom of the world
rmarsh@waikato.ac.nz  | both topographically and socio-politically.
+64 7 855 4406        | Whatever happened to Godzone?
    I can't reply to E-Mail but don't let that stop you sending!
    SnailMail: 95 Fairfield Rd, Hamilton, Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:1986 rec.arts.sf.written:5514
From: tmaddox@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Maddox)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: William Gibson's next novel....
Date: 7 Apr 92 21:15:41 GMT
Organization: The Evergreen State College, Olympia, Washington

In article <702561896.24543@zooid.guild.org> ron@zooid.guild.org (Secret Mud) writes:
>From: tmaddox@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Maddox)
>>
>>	Given the recent confusion (mine included) about a few matters
>>Gibsonian, I thought I might post a clarification.  I talked to him last
>>night, and he said:
>>
>>	the virus-loaded thingie does or will soon exist, but it's certainly
>>not his next novel; in fact, it's a couple of thousand words that he refers
>>to as "the text," and it's poetry, accompanying "a bronze booklike object"
>>that weighs a bunch and contains etchings by Dennis Ashbaugh and a diskette
>>with the Gibson poem;
>>
>>	the poem, if the software works the way it's intended to, will
>>self-destruct after a single reading ("but you can videotape it");
>
>It's an interesting gimick, but one doomed from the start.  All of the various
>brands of PCs lack a tamper-proof area for the software to run.  As soon as
>it's accessable for running, it's accessable for cracking--we control the
>hardware.

	You don't get it.  This is not in any sense a security program; it's 
*art*--whether good, bad, interesting or uninteresting, is another matter, but
art.

	Oh yes, one thing I forgot to mention in a previous posting:  Gibson is
not concerned with the virus end of the thing--that comes out of an agreement
between the visual artist and a programmer.

	The package also costs a hell of a lot, comes in a very limited edition,
and is, Gibson thinks, already fully subscribed, i.e., sold out.  
-- 
				Tom Maddox
			tmaddox@u.washington.edu
		"Writing is reading and reading is writing."
				A. S. Byatt
From: fnord@panix.com (Cliff Heller)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Term in Gibson's "Mona Lisa Overdrive"
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:46:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: panix.1992Apr16.154602.10181
Organization: Right Bleedin' Church of Libertine Obfuscatology

In <14379@pitt.UUCP> reanor@speedy.cs.pitt.edu (Jeffrey Getzin) writes:

>You made the same mistake I did.   Mona Lisa Overdrive is the third book
>in the series, although it doesn't say so on the book.   The series is:

>		Neuromancer
>		Count Zero
>		Mona Lisa Overdrive

The short stories "Johnny Mnemonic" and "Burning Chrome" from the _Burning
Chrome_ collection are also part of the mythos and are good to read before
Neuromancer.  At least one other story in BC has the same setting (The
Sprawl), but the above two stories have some of the same characters as
Neuromancer.   They are kind of like what _The Hobbit_ is to _The Lord of
the Rings_ (sorry to mention forbidden books in alt.cp).

 
-- 
     / \      Reverend fnord   	             | "King Kong died for your sins!"
    /   \     fnord@panix.com                | 
   / <0> \                                   | "Don't just eat a hamburger, 
  /_______\   Church of Obfuscatology, Inc.  |  eat the HELL out of it!"
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: ahawks@isis.cs.du.edu (andy)
Subject: FAQ?
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 22:09:25 GMT

A few months ago there was talk of compiling a FAQ for alt.cp.  Was it ever
completed?  Thanks for any info.

--


ahawks@isis.cs.du.edu						andy
From: billc@Apple.COM (Bill Cockayne)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: VR discussions and info
Keywords: vr, cyberpunk, coool
Date: 11 Apr 92 17:41:05 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

If you want to get in on some great vr discussions you want to subscribe to
sci.virtual-worlds  

there is a lot of discussion on present systems, homebrewed setups and stuff
being done at companies and institutions...

billc
.

Xref: sparky alt.sex:13664 alt.cyberpunk:1978 misc.legal:8944