From: mppc3@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Duncan White)
Subject: Re: Vampire and GURPS
Organization: University of Sussex
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:36:03 GMT


I couldn't let this go unchallenged (whats .advocacy for after all?)

dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
: 1) The combat system, even the advanced Storyteller one included in
: Werewolf and some supplement or other for V:TM, is horrible. It is
: the only combat system on the market that's worse than SR. The 
: better you get in Vampire, the more likely you are to make a horrible
: blunder (I won't drag out the mathematic forumlae for this, but rest
: assured, they've been gone over before.) The damage system is just
: as bad.  Gross scale for damage, making SR look reasonable.
: 
The combat system works as well as  those of many other game systems,
the problem you mention only occurs for difficulty 10 tasks (ie rated as
"almost impossible") so you should be good at whatever you're trying
before you even consider attempting this difficult a task. Even so, the
ability to claim automatic successes on some rolls, expend blood to
increase stats and expend willpower points means that this problem
almost never comes up.
Whats wrong with fast and deadly combat anyway? Better than the long
slugging matches seen in some systems (Runequest: hit, parry, hit,
parry... hit, parry, "oh dear it fainted due to exhaustion").

: 2) The statistics are only adjustable in gross steps. The difference
: between a stat or skill at 3 and 4 is enormous. This, of course,
: relates up to 1) A Horrible Combat system. This, I suppose, we could
: call a Horrible Skill system.
: 
The cost of raising the stat is also fairly large assuming it is done
during play rather than during character creation, so why not have it
make a large difference.

: 3) An experience system that adds abilities in vast quantities. The
: effect of adding 1 or 2 points to a character in Vampire is enormous
: when compared to a system such as GURPS or HERO. 
: 
I have played GURPS once and HERO never, so cant really comment here
except to ask how many (whatever) points you expect to earn per game
session and how these relate to skills etc? In Vampire, I don't expect
to earn more than 1 or 2 experience points per session and it can easily
cost 10 or more to increase an ability.

: 4) Character creation is limited to the game creators vision of 
: Vampires (and even more so in Werewolf). The stereotypes are very
: much in place.  While some may argue that many fantasy games
: do the same thing, those systems that do their best to function
: in all genres (and do a passable if not excellent job - GURPS, HERO)
: have no such built in stereotypes. 
: 	Yes, there are stereotypes that can be created in these
: games. However, it is far more difficult to create a non-standard
: character in Vampire than to create one in GURPS or HERO. Neither
: system comes with built-in stereotypes, the GM and players have
: to add them.  In Vampire, we have the game designers vision of vampires
: built into the system. For instance, a non-clan aligned character
: is forced to buy his powers at a far more expensive rate than those
: clan aligned characters who purchase clan powers. A human character
: is created on a substantially smaller number of points. In GURPS
: or HERO, all characters are given an equal number of points to
: build with, and advancement can be done equitably no matter what
: you are.
: 
So how would you mimic a human BECOMING a vampire in GURPS or HERO?
Presumably the human will have been created using as many points as
other humans and would then receive a lot of new abilities and
disadvantages (how many negative points is "killed by sunlight, must
drink blood to survive, in danger of losing all semblance of humanity"
worth as a disadvantage?). Should these REQUIRED disadvantages count
against the limit of disadvantage points? Vampires in V:TM may be
created with more points than mortals, but only because there is no
stated cost for these disadvantages - remember ANY vampire was human
once and has gained (and lost) since their embrace. In any case, why
shouldn't a vampire be created with more points than a mortal? Even in
GURPS etc.? A vampire is SUPPOSED to be tougher, stronger etc than a
mortal, no matter what source material you use.

There is no more or less stereotyping in V:TM than in any other game
system, you are free to play ANY character who might exist in the modern
world. The clans represent bloodlines through which certain abilities
are passed very strongly - any stereotyping of clan members stems from
the fact that new clan members are SELECTED by present members rather
than being born into a clan and then having the possibility of
developing into a non-typical member. After all, can you seriously
expect a multi-millionaire, corporate climber Ventrue to embrace (or
even meet long enough to talk to) a homeless penniless drunk? It may
happen, but would be very rare - people (and vampires) tend to associate
with people like themselves in many ways, and no vampire (except
possibly a Malkavian) would embrace a total stranger.

Possible confusion comes from the fact that most people say "I'll play a
Gangrel, so I have to be like this..." when they mean "I'll play a
character like this, so the clan most likely to embrace him/her/it is
Gangrel." The net result is the same, though the process is different.