HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP! name searching.
Date: 28 Dec 92 23:08:25 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM

Greetings from Arval!

Ulf wrote:

> I have a friend here who goes by the handle of "Werewolf" and has had his
> name legally changed to "Wolf". He likes to make people edgy. Some people
> are proud of their misdeeds.... Now, I am not speaking from a researched
> point of view, but I would assume that the Norse were not too different
> than we are today.

Why would you assume that?  Consider any art, craft, science, philosophy,
religion, etc., and compare it's 11th century form to its modern form.  Not
surprisingly, a millenium has brough radical changes in every part of life.
It would be astounding if 11th century attitudes toward personal names were
the same as modern attitudes.  In fact, they differed in many fundamental
ways that we can identify, and probably in many more that we cannot.  It is
our hope that by imitating what we know they did, we can learn things about
how and why they did them.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 21:07:46 GMT

Tadhg writes:

 JB> 2) Ten Words in which language?

> Latin, for preference....

Good luck; Latin blazoning was invented post-period, I'm pretty sure.  (I
think Solveig knows.)  It certainly has nothing to do with the "core
period" you keep talking about.

			---Simon
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown:a thought
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 16:51:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.233759.21209@ips.oz.au> colin@ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile) writes:

>nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>>Why on earth would you want to open the possibility of becoming SCA
>>royalty to non-fighting couples?

>Why not? There are many people who would make great monarchs but 
>either don't fight or are not good fighters. Being able to pound
>people harder than anyone else does not guarantee any other skills.

What skills?

It's not like the king is going to do any damage if he's an idiot,
even in kingdoms where they let the king do anything he wants.  And
there is no method of choosing a king that will guarantee you skills,
not even if you tell the applicants to send a resume, and give a civil
service exam.

>Would you have Mike Tyson for president? (Yes! say the jocks :-) )

But it's not real life, is it?  The King of Wazoo can't nuke Togo, or
screw up people's lives.

Aryk

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: Annual Xmas Depression; moan, weep, gnash
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 11:55:00 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Right now, people are arguing for and aainst the use of aluminum
armor. Earlier, we have argued in the same fashion about the use
of dances like Strip the Willow, modern archery eqipment, &c.

Each time, a fair number of people have argued convincingly for the
use of authentic period stuff, and against modern substitutes.
Each time, a number of people have said that this really does not
matter as long as (a) it looks good, (b) it is fun. The supporters
of authenticity always have -- on the whole -- the more intellectually
sound arguments, and come out on top; but to what use?

It occurs to me that these discussions always center on details in
the SCA game, and that there are always some reasons against authen-
ticity which we cannot get around; e.g. safety and cost.

What would happen if we managed to convince people about authenticity?
We would see events where every piece of equipment used was authentic
-- except for the 50% or so that was owned by people who could not
afford the money or the time to buy or make the authentic stuff.

Fighting would not be affected at all since whatever inauthenticity
that cannot be defended with the time/cost argument, can always be
motivated with safety reasons. (The real reason being that as long
as fighting has extreme awards (crowns), people will be more interes-
ted in winning than in authenticity, and developments in armor and
techniques will go in the direction of efficiency rather than recrea-
tion.)

And through it all, the SCA would still be populated with people
who have fantasy heraldry and fantasy names, and who live in a
fantasy "feudal system" where rulers are chosen in a fantasy way,
and reward their subjects with fantasy titles...

Having (mostly) worked for authenticity and against fantasy now for
some 8 years, my experience is that the most important obstacle on
the way to an authentic medieval experience is *not* the occasional
aluminum armor or fiberglass bow or Victorian dress collar.

The chief obstacle is the SCA system, the way our group is organized.
Most of the times when I gnash my teeth in frustration because
something is *wrong* and destroys the medieval atmosphere, it is
something caused by the SCA "system", not by an individual person
or piece of equipment, or thing being done at an event. 

With so much personal inauthenticity inevitably around (for acceptable
reasons, see above), I have developed strong mental "filters" to blur
these things over -- I just don't see them. I cannot, however, filter
out the system. Lately, not least in the work with preparing Drachen-
wald for Kingdom, I have felt increasingly that changes are desperately
needed. Now, how shall we get this sacred cow to MOVE???

Your insurrectionist and conspirator,

William
From: Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Subject: Spinners/weavers/etc. list
Organization: Panix Public Access Internet & Unix, NYC
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 01:51:38 GMT

	Well, the holidays are over, and I'm going to get to work on that
Spinners/Weavers/whatevers mailing list I mentioned a couple weeks ago. If
you would like to be on the list send me e-mail. I'm looking forward to 
hearing from all the string-freaks on the rialto.
						-Ilaine
-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	We're going to try an experiment now. Instead of using
                   | 	a loom, we're going to wind all the yarn into balls
ilaine@panix.com   |    and adopt an infinite number of kittens...
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pavao@cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 22 Dec 92 09:48:29 CST

Greetings to Aryk Nusbacher and those who read these lines!

	First of all, I said nothing of winning Crown, just fighting there.
It is, IMHO, the single most challenging tournament of the year/half-year.  It
is because of the calibre of fighters and the will to win that the challenge
is greatest.  It is the CHALLENGE, the striving toward perfection, which I 
hope for.  It is the striving toward perfection (again IMHO) that is the
pinnacle of chivalry.

	Besides, IF I ever get to Crown and IF I get to, say, the semi-finals,
I'll either yield or die putting up a good fight.  I wouldn't wish to skew the
contest too much (actually, the quarter-finals may be a good stopping-point as
well...).

-> Shandler

SCA: Chandler (Shandler) Greyfeathre
MKA: Aaron Pavao
NET: pavao@cae.wisc.edu
"The computer doesn't hate you, it's just out to get you."
From: hjfeld@acs.bu.edu (harold feld)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Midrealm Crown Tourney customs
Keywords: crown
Date: 3 Jan 93 07:28:14 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Woe and lamentations on this, the fast of the Tenth Day of Tavet. Woe
for the Temple that is no more! Yet, as we recall the mighty battles
that our forefathers faught against the Babylonians and the Romans (cursed
be their names!), Aryk discourses on a different battle.

In article <1992Dec30.005514.11769@epas.toronto.edu> nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:

AN>To those who have said that Crown Tournaments are the apogee of the tournament,
AN>I can only say that you must have been very fortunate in your choice
AN>of crown tournaments to fight in.  In my experience, crown tournament
AN>bouts are characterised by appalling conservatism (occasionally
AN>bordering on cowardice), rhino-hiding even from people of normally
AN>good standards, arrogant marshalling, and lack of the jolly good
AN>fellowship that makes fighting fun.

Come East, young man.
Not that all entrants in the Eastrealm crown are sterling
examples of chivalry, but I have observed the following, and
heard several people from out of kingdom remark at various crowns
over the years:

1) The Eastrealm crowns are generally very clean lists. The entrants
fight honarably and with chivalry, showing respect and politness to their
opponents.

2) The fighting itself is not pretty, and I have heard people from
out of kingdom remark that the best of the Eastrealm would not be the
best in various other kingdoms.

Personally, so long is #1 is true, I prefer it to #2.

In Service,
Yaakov




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Fighting for Crown..Another question.
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:07:38 GMT


Suggestion:

How about a two-stream royalty in which one couple are chosen by
combat and the other ... by a majority vote of the non-fighting
peerage.  They would share power between them, but each could have
it's own officers and bureaucracy.  Fealty could still be sworn to the
corporate person of "the Crown" which would then encompass all four
sovereigns and consorts.  They could be chosen at opposing points of
the year, thus eliminating the dangerous instability of the changeover
period...

What was the question?

AJ 'n' Jeremy
A little loopy in the morning
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: Fighting for Crown....A Question.
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Um, err... I *know* I saw it here a few days ago...
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 20:00:00 GMT

In article <01GSNO8HF1548Y5K5M@gallua.bitnet> PAMCCOY@gallua.gallaudet.EDU ("Pat McCoy a.k.a. Bones") writes:
>Good day to all gentles unto the Rialto!
>
>I have another question.
>
>If one is physically unable to fight, does that mean
>that the gentle could never become royalty?
>
One could always become consort.
Or one could consider if there are ways around the inability to fight.
I know of a one legged Knight in Ansteorra, and here in the Outlands,
I know a Lady who fences, despite being completly blind.
Mudanely, I know a gentleman who holds a 3rd dan in Tae Kwon Do, and
spars (very effectively) from his wheelchair.

--
	Mark Cochran 		Lord Edward Tremaine
	merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu	Aarquelle, Outlands
"It's easy. Just hold the dull part and hit him with the sharp part."
	- Don Alaric Greythorne of Glen Mor talking to a new fighter
From: Larry.Cline@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Larry Cline)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Date: 2 Jan 93 08:21:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.726032809.AA00000

In a message to All <12-31-92 18:27> Wilson Heydt wrote:





WH>  In article <1992Dec31.161255.23102@news.ysu.edu> ae766@yfn.ysu.edu
WH>  (David Sanders) writes:
WH>  >Regardless of the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
WH>  >argument, the fact that about (more than?) 1 in 2000 people
WH>  >in my home town were killed with guns each year for the past
WH>  >three years makes people here uneasy.  My town has a reputation
WH>  >for violence.
WH>  >A

And how many people are stabbed each year in your town?  Compare that number 
against the number of people stabbed in the SCA each year and you will 
probaby end up with a nice base number to make comparisons.  After all, all 
those people running around at events with those big, sharp, 
stickey-pokies.

WH>  >Think of this:  If 1 in 2000 SCA-folk were murdered each year,
WH>  >how many would that be?
WH>
WH>  Not to make light of a very UNfunny subject....
WH>
WH>  The answer depnds a lot on the question--How many SCAers *are* there?
WH>
WH>  Just counting the Registry numbers (and using your proportion) we
WH>  lose
WH>  about 11 people a year.  By some estimates, we'd lose about 50--the
WH>  same as your home town.
WH>
WH>     --Hal


Well that is still to many for this type of thing.  I don't think that it is 
a problem (or would be, even with firearms, primitive or otherwise) because 
the SCA is a different culture that his town.  And culture makes more of a 
difference that the presence of firearms.


Garrick 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:01:28 GMT

Tadhg wrote:
  MS> So, on the one hand, you seem to maintain that modelling of period
  MS> behavior takes precedence over SCA style when creating names, but the
  MS> inverse when creating armory?

  Yup, because the rules are quite different for the two.

Which misses the point of my question.  The rules are an artifact which has
been created, and been changed, and will be again.  The rules do not justify
themselves.

Why, Tadhg, have two different standards for names and armory?  Please don't
answer "because we do".

  Another difference is that "SCA armorial style" quite comfortably tries to
  err on the side of authenticity, while "SCA naming style" makes a valiant
  effort to turn us into a mutant descendant of the Tolkien Society by way
  of Darkover and the Dragonriders of Pern....

Nice prose.  But the first clause is provably incorrect.  SCA Armorial Style
does not accurately model even the unambitious portions of the period
you would have us cover, let alone the scope of the SCA as it is authorized
and practiced.  (We  don't have rules making purpure as rare as it was in
period armory.  Our whole conflict structure forces us to swing wide of
existing examples of heraldry, instead of forcing us to emulate it more closely).

Our naming conventions support "If it was done in period, you can do it".  Our
Our armory conventions support a homogenized style, that excludes period
practices.

[Haggling over exactly what level of disapproval Tadhg has demonstrated over
 naming in the past, deleted.  Lovely smokescreen, however.]

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period pottery - longwinded
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:32:44

Taking off on a tangent from previous realities, I begin with some quotes
>pottery using that motif; it isn't good period 
>pottery."  If anyone said
>something like that to an artisan in the SCA, he'd 
>be laughed out of the
>hall or, better yet, simply ignored.  

 JB> Well, I think we can all agree that some things are 
 JB> bad pottery, even if
 JB> they were done in period --- period potters must 
 JB> have produced their share
 JB> of cracked pots.  On the other hand, in that case 
 JB> we can define bad as "not
 JB> useful".
 Having played with pottery as an undergrad, I thought I'd see what the 
 real stuff looked like in period.  I found a book titled _Medieval_ 
 Pottery_ in my local library and perused.  The conclusion I came to was 
 that:
     Western European pottery during our timeperiod is tacky-looking. 
 (That excludes the Majolica-ware from Spain or Italy, which has some 
 nice pieces and some tacky stuff too).  In large part, this seemed to 
 be due to the materials and techniques available.  The European clays 
 are low-fire or terra-cotta style stuff.  This doesn't make very sturdy 
 stuff, so most of what the book had is by and for peasants and the middle-class.  
    There is some elegant pottery being made during the Middle Ages --  all in the Orient and the Middle-east.  They had the stoneware and 
 porcelain clays, and the Chinese had the fire-brick clay to build a 
 kiln that would fire these clays to their full potential.  They also 
 developed a nifty kiln which would develop the high temperatures 
 necessary from a wood fire.
    As I recall, the Middle-east just tried to copy the Chinese wares. 
 They also did not have the stoneware and firebrick clays, they just had 
 better model to extrapolate from.  They approached the Chinese pretty 
 closely with the supplies they had, and produced some beautiful stuff 
 as a result. 
    An amusing sidenote:  I was perusing a collection of Oriental pottery  at the Dallas Museum of Art, which does modern art and 18th ce furniture  pretty well.  This particular collection is privately owned, and they 
 hadn't messed about with the attributions.  One bowl was marked as 
 12th ce Chinese, which I am 80% certain is actually Arabic.  It was 
 a large white bowl with blue inscriptions, in good Chinese style for 
 that time, but the inscription on the inside bottom of the bowl appeared  to be legible Arabic.  I'd looked at enough Arabic-letters-used-as-a 
 -motif-but-don't-spell-anything, and actual inscriptions.  I can't read 
 Arabic, myself, but it didn't have that repetive characteristic that  
 the non-legible stuff does.  
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth
       Steppes, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 2 Jan 93 21:35:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.726070837.AA00000


 DO> From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
 DO> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 DO> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
 DO> ]  Hans Rancke wrote:
 ]  > I'd very much like to know what culture you define medieval 
 ]  > Scandinavia to be part of.
 DO> ]
 DO> ]  Barbarian fringe, like the Arabs and the Slavs 

 ]  HR> Germany and Scandinavia were very much part of western culture.
 DO> ]
 DO> ]  Only in the same way that the Mongols were very much a part of
 DO> Asian ]  culture.
 DO> 
 DO> Considering they ruled most of it, I don't see your point. There's a 
 DO> lot more to Mongols than you suspect, I think, or you wouldn't say
 DO> this. 

And the same could be said for the Norse, since the Normans were of *recent*
Norse extraction when they became the rulers of not just the area Tadhg
idolizes, plus everything down to a good-sized chunk of Mediterranian Africa.

Perhaps he has decided that despite being rulers of the area, they had no 
influence on it? Or that moving to France for a generation or so somehow 
removes them from being of Norse extraction?

Dunno about that. They sure had no trouble remembering how the sail those
nasty longships, and invade... and put an axe up your multi-great grandpap's
nose... I don't imagine the Saxons thought them all that "reformed" by their
stay in France. :-)

Moreach
Skeptic


 
... Catch the Blue Wave!
From: pwr@jab.tucson.az.us (Patrick Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Non-fighting Royalty
Keywords: Crown, War
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 05:45:53 MST
Organization: Just Another Bbs. Tucson, AZ

Volfred quotes Dennis:

> This could be great fun. Monarch wanna-bees would go out and solicit
> fighters for their cause. Then a series of battles would be fought,
> maybe round-robin, maybe free-for-all. Who ever one the war would become 
> the next Monarchs. Archery, light-weapons and A&S could all be war points.

  I tend to see a more period flavor to the idea that the king would let 
his armies do the fighting.
 
  Let would-be kings gather armies to fight for crown.  Some knights woul
not have allowed their king to face an enemy blade alone.
 
Volfred
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir)
Subject: Re: Japanese persona
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 20:26:17 GMT

Good Gentles!

There were large numbers of Euorpeans living in East Asia in the 16th
century.  Further, there were several Japanese expeditions to the pope
and other Western precincts before Japan was closed in the early 17th
century.  There were from the 7th century onward rather frequent
journeys by Japanese scholars to India.  Now does that make Japanese
common in the courts of the Plantagenet kings of England?  No it does
not.  But, neither were there a lot of Turks, Arabs, Austrians or
Italians wandering around England either.

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Totally Ignorant
From: hjfeld@acs.bu.edu (harold feld)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Are you a Rialto Geek?
Summary: Test
Date: 3 Jan 93 05:44:57 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov. (Who is
still trying to dig his way out from under a zillion back messages.)

Awhile ago, someone posted a 'heraldry geek' quiz.  I thought up
this 'Rialto geek' quiz at about the same time, but didn't have time
to post it until now.

1) What is the SSS?
 Bonus point for each member you can name.
2) What is Soapy?  Whoi discovered/invented Soapy?
3) What is the name of the 'Rialto Household'?
(NB: The 'Rialto Household is a household of people
from the Rialto, not the 'official' Rialto household,
whatever that would mean.)
4) Why is it the Rialto?
5) Why do some old-timers still refer to the 'fisher folk'
of the Rialto?

Give yourself one point for every time you've seen the following
thread:
6) Same sex consorts
7) Selecting monarchs (via tourney or other method)
8) Is paganism period
9) Is Tarot period
10) Peerages (either restructurinbg or archery)
11) Non-European personaes
12) Pentacles in armory
13Rialto badge

14) Who wrote the various rialto FAQS?
15) How many are there and what are they called.
16) Do you subscribe to both the idgest and read rec.org.sca,
just to make sure you're not missing anything.

That should do it for now. Scoring 15 or more is probably a
good sign of geekdom.


In Service,
Yaakov
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:40:17 GMT

Tadhg did write:
>
> One of Laurel's oft-repeated maxims is "We follow the general practices,
> not the exceptions", and red bends and chiefs on blue fields were
> exceptions, not general practices; considered in the context of western
> European heraldry as a whole, regional practices such as green mounts on
> blue fields, however much they may have been the height of fashion in
> Hungary or wherever, were still exceptions rather than general practices.
>
> I have made a modest contribution in that directio with my "Ten Word
> Blazon Test", the rationale for which is "if they did it a lot, they had a
> term for it; if it takes you a lot of words to describe it, then they
> didn't have a term for it, and so they probably didn't do it a lot, and so
> it probably isn't good style".

1) None of the things you mentioned above fail your test.

2) Ten Words in which language?  German heraldry has words for a number of
field divisions and charges that do not occur in Anglo-French heraldry, and
probably other things as well.  Why should Anglo-Norman blazoning practice
be the determining factor?

			---Simon