From: mw%ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Effort vs clinging on the spiritual path
Date: 16 Nov 1992 22:17:52 -0800
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Roger Adams <radams@cerritos.edu> wrote:
[talking about Thaddeus Golas' book]
: > Below is a quote from the book; before jumping up against it you may assure
: > yourself that you have inspected it (and what it means) carefully.
: 
: I will be happy to comment on anything you wish to quote :-).

Uh, I really meant the book - copyright law (and possibly some lazyness) keep
me from posting it completely. It's small and cheap, though :-)

: He is drawing from the ultimate truth sayings which I do not take issue with.

Could it be that your clinging to some of such sayings doesn't allow you to
accept that he may be speaking from experience with saying that no effort were
necessary? (btw he agrees that many would have a tendency to open up in steps -
and I'd like to add that gradual opening still doesn't imply effort at all).

: Even "letting go" requires effort because our ego is so used to being in
: control that we fight, even subconsciously, to hold on to this control.
That's one path: relax by first using your muscles until your power is used up.
Another you mentioned is taking care not to move more than (supposedly) needed.
Yet another is to relax spontaneously without any preparation.
Or to see the fiction of "someone separate" directing tension
(or experiencing it, for that matter) and let go.
And many more ...

: The clinging we have to ego-control is astoundingly powerful
Agreed so far ...
: and requires effort to let go of.
.. but this conclusion supposes the ego would have to reach something.

: All paths eventually lead to
: Self-realization, but some take many detours and even bounce you off the
: bottom before you rise to the summit :-) :-)
.. and others sell you lots of new clothes if you only need to be naked
(nothing against clothes :-)

 My reasoning is that what we are seeking is not external to the seeker,
: therefore realization is inevitable eventually and even the craziest of paths
: will come around to it eventually.
Grin - but there's much more to the "many ways" argument than tolerance and
patience.
What we are seeking is (obviously) not to need seeking any more.

: > Whatever "you" do is a more-or-less subtle kind of resistance against
: > enlightenment - and that does include striving for enlightenment
: > (and so-called passivity is no exception).
: 
: I am glad to respond to this.  If someone fell into a deep well and then 
: another person drops a rope down to her, what if she says, "no thank you,
: I am practicing non-clinging right now including clinging to this rope" .
: She will not get out of the well this way. However if she did cling to the
: rope and got pulled out of the well, she would not feel any special
: attachment to the rope and want to carry it around with her forever or
: worship the man who dropped the rope.
: Therefore, the argument that a spiritual liberating technique (or guru who
: teaches it) is itself an addiction is no more true than the rope (or man)
: being a object of worship or addiction to the woman who was rescued.
: The real resistance to enlightenment is to remain in the well and 
: refuse the rope.
You forgot [to write] that it is resistance which builds the impression of
being someone sitting in a well.
Some "paths" use this difference to your setup immediately, not only as a
result.

[Sufi story deleted]
: This nice story points to the truth. Real effort is required to "simply let
: go". If this were not so, we would all be in nirvana and would not bother
: with metaphysical discussions on the matter because we probably have all
: experienced a "letting go" sometime.
This would only be so if effort were the only possible "solution to the
problem" - but there may be approaches of a very different kind.

: > Fighting against windmills and running away from them is the same
: "problem" :-)
:
: Delusion is just as real as you or me. In fact delusion is so strong that we
: assume that there is a you and a me. At this rate, I think we can use some
: of that rope :-)
Look at this situation:
The rope is thrown down with both ends, the walls are too slippery to climb,
you fall down. What now?

Mr. and Mrs. Miller live in the windmill eating the baker's bread.
Good appetite :-)

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 Marc Wachowitz, mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de   /  news zombie - reply by e-mail, too
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