HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 08:14:33 GMT
Organization: None for me, thanks . . . I'm driving.

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>> I have yet to see anything explain why this renaming is a bad thing in
>> general.  [Lazlo]
>
> Because the name change was perceived as arbitrary by some people who
> happened to be good contributors to r.m.s...and they dropped out
> completely rather than take on who I appear to be taking on.  Who lost?
> R.m.s. 

I have no idea why they would drop out of the group simply because its
name was going to change.  If they shared a more concrete reason with you,
I'd certainly like to hear it.  "If you won't play the way I want I'll
take my ball and go home" doesn't carry a lot of weight.

(For what it's worth, I'm more inclined to suspect that anyone who's left
rec.music.synth in the past few weeks has left because of the incredible
amount of flamage and non-synth discussion that's been going on there
lately.)

> Acutally, the problem with putting it in "makers" is the fact that it
> robs keyboard and piano players from getting their own group. They are
> music makers too, but when you newsgroup naming purists get wind of any
> RFD for that you'll point and scream about rec.music.makers.synth. 

Excuse me?  Where did *this* come from?  If you're presuming to speak for
my opinion on a possible rec.music.makers.keyboards, could you also please
share with me my reasons for opposing it?  I certainly can't think of any.

> And...the problem with "synth" is that r.m.s also discussed music
> software, effects boxes, midi routers, drum machines, and a host of
> other things not related specifically to synths themselves. 

This didn't seem to be a problem when the group was called rec.music.synth.
Why is it a problem now?

> ...because it was gatewayed in places and because it had a great
> character I would still have voted NO and supported leaving the name
> alone.  Cleaning up the namespace is all well and good, but not at the
> expense of those who use it.  

Several people have offered to take care of the gatewaying problem if
the people who are nominally responsible for the gateways cannot -- so
I don't see this as a problem.  And I see no reason to assume that the
character of the group will change significantly simply because of this
rename.  It's just not that radical a change.  So at whose expense is
this change supposed to be taking place?

> I personally have no problem finding anything I want to find, mislocated
> or no. 

So to hell with any new users who see "rec.music.synth" and think it's a
group for the discussion of Wendy Carlos' latest album, then?  Why does
your concern for people who aren't familiar with the net end when a change
might inconvenience you personally?

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:53:02 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>Yep.  A whole bunch of people failed to acquaint themselves with the
>>basic workings of Usenet.
>
>It's NOT BASIC!! Do you have any idea how many people on the net don't 
>even know that group names are subject to vote?

Dave, wake up.  "Basic" and "widely known" are _not_ synonyms.  There
are lots of important things that the majority of people don't bother
to learn, because they just don't care to go to the trouble.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Xref: sparky news.groups:20279 rec.music.synth:17712
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 5 Nov 1992 15:50:07 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov5.025402.10254@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
[about moving rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth]
>You know...that just might be too many characters for the list server to 
>handle? Would that fact change the vote?

Going from 15 characters to 22 characters shouldn't break anything. If, in
fact, the server is that broken, I will offer to help fix it, including
getting another piece of server software (the one that gateways
rec.radio.amateur.policy, a 23 character name) running on that machine.

>That's a straw man. The concern here is that those who use a newsgroup are
>subject to name changes that they do not want. This is, in fact, the issue.

They had their opportunity to express their opinion. They failed miserably. If
the masses of r.m.s readers were that unhappy, they should have voted NO, and
the numbers you're hinting at would have been more than enough to sink that
part of the vote.

>I don't want to argue about the newsgroup name per se...it may have been 
>misnamed anyway. Perhaps when it was named...MIDI wasn't a real standard yet.
>In any case, it serves it's purpose quite well. My site will not be rmgrouping
>it at all. Neither will my feed. 

In that case, you will be directly responsible for fragmenting the group.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: edb@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Ed Blachman x4420)
Subject: Re: RFD: SOC.RELIGION.ISLAM.AHMADIYYA
Summary: new naming suggestion
Reply-To: edb@Ileaf.COM (Ed Blachman)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 16:35:53 GMT

How about calling the newsgroup for Ahmadi Muslims
 soc.religion.ahmadiya-islam?  That way it would have the
 world 'islam' in the name, which seems to be of great im-
 portance to Ahmadis, without being placed as a subgroup of
 soc.religion.islam, which seems to be of great importance
 to non-Ahmadis.

Just a suggestion.

Ed Blachman	edb@ileaf.com	(or)	...!uunet!leafusa!edb

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mhmann@nyx.cs.du.edu (Me Mann)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean 
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 06:53:13 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.051726.21697@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> mmurali@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Magical_Flute) writes:
>TAN GIM WEE (eng20009@nusunix1.nus.sg) wrote:
>: IMHO, NUS is not doing anything about this proposed new newsgroup
>: because the computer centre here has recently created about 10 local
>: newsgroups catering to the needs of the people in NUS.
>: Anyway, given the large number of Singapore bashers in netland, this new
>: group will probably be just another avenue for them to enjoy themselves.a
>: Maybe this is just like opening Pandora's Box.
>: 
>: --
>: ---------------------------------------------------------
>: Tan Gim Wee
>: EE Dept, NUS
>: internet: eng20009@nusunix1.nus.sg
>: bitnet: eng20009@nusvm.bitnet
>: "It was a dark and stormy night......"	-  Snoopy
>
>
>That is very interesting to hear.
>How about telling us about these newsgroups?
>

Well those newsgroups mentioned are local newsgroups and are not 
propogated out of  NUS at least for the moment.  

>I remeber there was one such newsgroup when Bitnet was started
>a couple of years ago here- called NUS list or something like
>that and it was a dead dead dead group. 

It is still like the dead dead dead group, at least for  now. The traffics
in these groups are extremely low at the moment.   Perhaps not many
are aware of them or ... 


-Mann

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:23:59 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>In article <2B000760.51BA@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>>>Interest isn't the only requirement.
>>Yes, it is.  Or can you show other requirements?
>
>1. Access to the right people that can answer your questions correctly

... or _interest_ enough to read news.announce.newusers ("Oh wow, I'm
a new user, I'm _interested_ to see the announcements for me") when
they see it in their list of newsgroups.

>2. Knowing what questions to ask

Not so, since all the "right people" need say is "read n.a.newusers,
it will tell you what you need to know."

>3. A lot of spare time to read a lot of articles that look like they might  
>not interest you (but you never know)

Not so; you don't need a lot of time to scan n.a.newgroups every day,
and you only have to read the articles in n.a.newusers _once_.

>3. An eagle eye

Not so; n.a.newgroups exists for people who are _interested_ in new
group creation but who don't have time to read news.groups.

>4. Searching out the meaning of undefined acronyms you may or may not be  
>interested in ...

Anyone who's _interested_ enough to read n.a.newgroups for one day
knows what they mean.

>5. Being lucky enough to find out what RFD and CFV mean BEFORE an  
>important issue blows you by

See previous answer.

>6. A desire to read articles about any group that has an interest of yours  
>as a part of its name.

Not so (complete fabrication, in fact).

>7. A desire and ability to pay for the connect time to obtain groups other  
>than your area of interest (not everyone gets a general newsfeed)

Okay, I admit that the _second_ requirement besides interest is a feed
of news.announce.*.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Distribution: news
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 00:12:35 GMT

dseal@armltd.co.uk (David Seal) writes:
>get crossposted to all affected groups. If someone ignores such a crosspost,
>they are assumed not to be interested. This may not be the case, but there's
>not much more the net can do about it.

Yes there is. In the case of group RENAMES, post a clear and loud subject
line. Don't hide the rename in the middle of a unrelated reorg. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Possession of a system of knowledge, or any part of it, or an interest in it
or in discovering one, should not be assumed to confer any license or capacity
to operate it. Individual criticisms of a system, incapacity to operate it,
or dissatisfaction with it should not be confused with any shortcoming of the
system itself.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rached@blanc.eng.ohio-state.edu (rached)
Subject: Re: pakistan
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:42:59 GMT

Somebody suggested that there is no newsgroup to discuss pakistani
culture. I ask:

what is soc.culture.pakistan for ?

rached

Newsgroups: uk.net,news.groups,soc.culture.british
From: gdb15@grebe.cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should UK groups be sent to UUnet?
Keywords: news british uk
Reply-To: gdb15@cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:23:13 GMT

In article <ZXX1TB4w165w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> yadallee@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Dave Shariff Yadallee) writes:
>Ian@unipalm.co.uk writes:
>
>- Up to now, Pipex has excluded "uk" groups from those fed to uunet (and
>- hence the rest of Usenet) mainly on the grounds that this was the
>- status quo.
>-
>- Unless I hear a clamour against the idea, I shall remove the "!uk" from
>- our uunet feed. I shall of course exclude uk.net.maps if its de-facto
>- moderators wish.
>
>  Ian, I support the idea.  I am a Briton in Canada WILLLING to see these
>groups go abroad.  As for the USA coming to the picture, DON'T worry!!  They
>would end up dead before they could make  a mistatement.

Um... Ian, I don't know how to put this... I've suddenly come up with
a reason against... :-)

--
Guy Barry, University of Cambridge | Phone: +44 (0)223 334757 
Computer Laboratory                | Fax: +44 (0)223 334678
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street  | JANET: Guy.Barry@uk.ac.cam.cl 
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England, UK     | Internet: Guy.Barry@cl.cam.ac.uk 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 02:51:12 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.225129.5675@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <BxE3wJ.M4s@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim  
>Pierce) writes:
>
>> In article <1992Nov7.071644.4478@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>> 
>> >In YOUR opinion it was properly run - obviously more than a few people  
>> >disagree with you.
>> 
>> They are wrong.
>
>Wow - a categorical denial of the validty of opposing viewpoints...must  
>simplify your life a lot.

Even if the newsgroup creation guidelines are changed as a result of
this free-for-all, the vote for rec.music.makers.* will still have
been properly run, and will hold.  In order to be improperly run, a
vote must violate existing guidelines.  Demonstrate that it did so,
and you will have a point.  However, this vote did not.

This is not a "categorical denial of the validity of opposing
viewpoints."  It is a statement of fact.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Xref: sparky news.groups:21928 rec.music.synth:18471
From: andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Andrew Hackard)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 16 Nov 92 00:39:24 GMT
     <1992Nov10.220527.23308@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

[Followups taken *out* of rec.music.synth.]

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:

>>What's stopping you from explaining the situation to them?  And do you
>>*really* think that the *entire net* should come to a grinding halt for
>>the sake of *one single BBS's convenience*? 

>I'm not arguing that with you. That's a straw man.

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?  Or is the whine you
posted from John Rossi somehow a different, relevant issue?

--
--Andrew Hackard                                 If I spoke for UT, this post
  andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu                        would make even less sense.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: nsw@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (Neil Weinstock)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: The Flying Squid Patrol
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:49:29 GMT

In article <Bx9ECw.2u4@srgenprp.sr.hp.com> smithj@sr.hp.com (Jim Smith) writes:
[ ... ]
>I think that Ken is making a very significant point here.  I saw all the
>postings in question, but then, I read everything on r.m.s.  
>The mention of rec.music.synth was buried after all the legalese gobbledygook
>and three other irrelevant proposals in the posts.  No wonder it was missed
>by many.  Try naming it "CFD: RENAMING rec.music.synth" and see what happens!

Early on, I posted an article to rec.music.synth with an explicit subject
line indicating that the renaming discussion was going on in news.groups.

No, I didn't save it...

                                - Neil

--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--
Neil Weinstock @ AT&T Bell Labs         //     What was sliced bread
att!edsel!nsw or nsw@garage.att.com   \X/    the greatest thing since?
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: nsw@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (Neil Weinstock)
Subject: Re: A question, a comment
Organization: The Flying Squid Patrol
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 07:20:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.052045.3880@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
[ ... ]
>Sites will have done so when the gateway to SYNTH-L drops.

A new maintainer for that gateway is being/has been found.  That argument no
longer seems to hold water.

>>Various people have suggested various dire outcomes, and been refuted in
>>various ways; I'd like to see someone (Dave Hayes?) post a reasonably
>>concise summary of WHY this renaming was a bad thing.
>
>To answer that I'll ask everyone why this renaming was a good thing?
>The group has been in operation for years...why change it now?

That is possibly the single least valid argument against the change that I
have seen here (which is saying something.)  Newsgroups get renamed all the
time, and people adjust and survive.  Gateway maintainers update the gateways
with the new names, and life goes on.  Jeez.  The semi-sane hierarchy in the
net today is the result of years of name-changing and reorging.

Please choose whether you're arguing against the validity of the vote, or
the desirability of the new name for the group.  In the former, there are some
valid arguemnts (though not sufficient to invalidate the vote IMNSHO), but
the latter is simply irrelevant.  The new name clearly is consistent with the
rest of the reorg.

>Concise results of the change:
>
>1) Less membership.
>2) Less distribution.

Temporarily.

>3) A flamewar.

Exactly who's fault is that?

                                - Neil

--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--
Neil Weinstock @ AT&T Bell Labs         //     What was sliced bread
att!edsel!nsw or nsw@garage.att.com   \X/    the greatest thing since?
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cmcurtin@bluemoon.use.com (Matthew Curtin)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.shakespeare
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 14:04:17 EST

dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com (David Leikam) writes:

> In article <Bx72Dt.J1o@uunet.uu.net> lidz@midway.uchicago.edu (adam lidz) wri
> >I would like to propose the following group for discussion, and hopefully
> >creation:
> >rec.arts.shakespeare
> >
> 
>   Hmmm. What would you say in such a group that can't already be said in
> rec.arts.books?  The RABble are as interested in the Bard as in anyone
> else. I grant  you the volume can be pretty overwhelming, but anyone with
> any new topic tends to get all of the discussion he/she can handle in
> followups.
> 
>   I have not noticed a great deal of discussion of Shakespeare in RAB, so
> I wonder whether there's enough interest to warrant a new group? I sure
> haven't seen evidence of it.
>  
>   If there WERE such a group, I'd almost certainly read it, though. Only
> questioning why it can't be done (as it sometimes is) in RAB.

Well... considering that Shakespeare didn't write any books, per se, I 
wouldn't expect to see a discussion of Shakespeare in RAB. :-)

Shakespeare's works are so diverse (sonnets, plays, poems...) that I think 
dedicating a group to discussion of all of Shakespeare's works would most 
certainly be warranted...

> -- 
> dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com | My company doesn't know Usenet exists, and my boss
> and other places,    | would have kittens if he thought I spoke for them.
> even more unsavory.  | My opinions are better than theirs anyway.


 __________________________________________________________________________
| C. Matthew Curtin             ! "But I am the enlightened one, they are  |
| P.O. Box 27081                ! but mere sheep, following each other in  |
| Columbus, OH 43227-0081       ! the name of compatibility." -B. Heineman |
| cmcurtin@bluemoon.rn.com      !              Apple II Forever!           |
|_cmcurtin@bluemoon.use.com_____!_____________GNO_your_AppleIIGS!__________|
From: LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Andy Lipscomb)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.fuzzy
Date: 9 Nov 92 15:48:26 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.21

> i, too (following Erik), see fuzzy theory as a general "tool" which
> can be used within many different domains, AI being just one.
> For the same reasons, i'd just as soon it was not relegated to the
> "comp" portion, either, but moved over to "sci.fuzzy_set_theory" (the
> shorter "sci.fuzzy" would have the loonies crawling out of the
> woodwork, unfortunately).

Problems:
(1) _ is an evil character.
(2) Components are limited to 14 characters.
How about .fuzzy-sets or .fuzzy-logic  (I don't care what goes before the .fuzz
part)?


Andy Lipscomb
lipscoja@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Bitnet: lipscoja@vuctrvax)
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: pakistan
Date: 11 Nov 1992 14:01:31 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <1dpmibINNci@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx306@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eugene F. Gross) writes:
>
>Is there a group dedicated to pakistani culture?

   No, but I'm thinking about officially proposing the creation of
rec.arts.sf.pakistani to provide the necessary forum.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
From: killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:53:01 GMT

In <1992Nov9.194855.2802@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>>Almost NOBODY reads n.a.n even though I post several places "READ THE
>>>USENET DOCUMENTATION" which contains copies of all the standard usenet
>>>docs (including the guidelines). 
>>I'm glad for your users' sake that you've gone to that much trouble to
>>educate them.  It's too bad they haven't taken advantage of your help.
>Admins are people who joyfully grab obscure or unrelated documentation
>and read it to find relavence. 
>Users as a general rule abhor such documentation, and avoid it like the
>plague.
>While admins develop skills at finding documentation, users develop
>skills at ignoring documentation and just going for what they need 
>at the time.
>SO what we are seeing here is the class struggle of the admin vs the user.

Let's see what we have here:

1) You, as a sysadmin, have posted several messages to the general
   public in your system stating that there are documentation that
   every user should know.
2) You then proceed to claim that such documentation is hard to find.
3) You even claim that such documentation is obscure and unrelated to
   readin news.

Conclusion:  Your message in point 1 above must have looked something like:
"There is a document containing useless and obscure behaviour of the
 Usenet-news.  You should read it, but I'm not gonna tell you where
 you can find it."

If the above conclusion is false, then one of the points 1-3 are false.
Tell me which one.

I suggest that you use facts, not fiction, when arguing matters
with people.  It makes a lot better impression, you know.
--
************************************************************************
* The night sky over the planet Krikkit is the least interesting sight *
* in the entire Universe.  -- Douglas Adams, HHGTG                     *
************************************************************************