HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 04:39:54 GMT

In article 15613@rs.com, horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
>In article <bdm.714534253@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>Nora wrote:
>>>>Nabil wrote:
>>>>Why then in 1948 when the Arab majority opposed the establishment
>>>>of the Jewish state did not rule?
>>
>>>The Arab "majority" tried to oppose the establishment of the Jewish
>>>state in the UN's General Assembly, which is the majority-rule body
>>>among nations, and got voted down by majority rule. I believe they
>>>got one vote from a non-Muslim country, that being Cuba; and that's
>>>even with having tried to buy Costa Rica's vote and G-d alone knows
>>>how many others. They were voted down anyway. 
>>
>>What a weird definition of democracy you have.  The UN vote on
>>Palestine was taken against the wishes of a large majority of the
>>inhabitants, and there is no way around it.  
>
>Your comment about "weird definition of democracy" is out of place. 
>It is evident that Nora's response was directed *solely* to Nabil's
>wording of "...when the Arab majority opposed..."
>
>As for the UN vote being taken against the wishes of a large majority
>of the [its] inhabitants, well, this is both irrelevant and incorrect.
>
>It is irrelevant in that the purpose of the UN, or any large representative
>legislative body, is to act on-behalf/in-the-best-interests of those whom
>it represents. If a majority (or a powerful-enough minority) of the
>inhabitants of any member of the UN is dissatisfied with the representation
>of its UN ambassador, then they should appoint a new ambassador. If one
>doesn't like the way the body votes, then one can "put up or shut up".

"put up" what?  And what ambassador are you referring to?  The Palestinian
Arabs had no representative at all in the UN in 1947.

Anyway, it is quite obvious that your support of UN decisions is restricted
to those decisions that suit you.  Your pretence to general principles
is just a smoke-screen; or maybe you would like to apply them to some
other UN resolutions I will choose for you? 

>It is incorrect in that the Arabs were neither a "large majority" nor a
>"majority" of the inhabitants of Palestine in 1948. 

There were about twice as many Arabs as Jews in Palestine in 1947.
Perhaps you are using a new model of arithmetic.

>                                                       Nor have they been
>so at any point in time since 1948. And there is no way around it.

True, and we both know why.

>>In any case, I question your description.  The necessary number of
>>votes was only obtained because the US actively bullied a number
>>of countries into changing sides.  All this is well documented. 
>
>"Bullying"? You mean they took the other delegates' lunch money??
>This is called "politics". This is called "life". This is called
>"compromise". Get used to it -- it's well documented. 

Just stop pretending you are arguing from general principles.

Brendan.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Bosnia, Concentration Camps, YIGAL ARENS
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:22:59 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET's message of 12 Aug 92 07:20:55 GMT

In article <4105@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
> Don't fool us Yigal. You expect nothing but seeing all people of
> the world hating the state of Israel and  Jews in general
>  ( beside seeing the check you permanently get from the PLO helping
>    you running your HATE ISRAEL center - you are using a mild term for
>    that center).

Which reminds me.  Could you please put in a good word for me with your
close friends at the PLO?  What I want is a regular *stream* of checks,
you see, instead of the that one permanent one.  Use your harsher term
for my HATE ISRAEL center in your talks with them.  It can't hurt.
Thanks.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Advertising on the Net - NOTES FROM A SEALED ROOM
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:17:34 GMT
Keywords: Persian Gulf War

In article <1992Aug14.030242.17476@midway.uchicago.edu>
goer@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:

>>Although I am reluctant to advertise, and particularly to
>>advertise myself on the net...

>I guess if you act obsequious and apologetic enough, it's okay
>to perpetrate an egregous violation of netiquette.

Seems like Richard was able to manage worse even without having
anything to advertise.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
		Note new machine name
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 21:14:44 GMT


In a previous article, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) says:
>
>International Law? This is a joke. If there is any law in the world
>I will be living now with my parents in Haifa.

If they hadn't decided, of their own free will, against the pleading of
Jewish leaders, to leave, then you might.  But don't blame the Israelis.

At the time that virtually the entire Arab population of Haifa left, the
British police (no friends of the Jews!) reported that "every effort is
being made by the Jews to pursuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on
with their normal lives, ... and to be assured that their lives and
interests will be safe."  The Haganah even ordered that no Arab's
possessions be touched, and warned that anyone who violated that order
would be severely punished.

Your parents apparently voluntarily left Haifa, and have no more right to
return their than my grandparents had to return to the Russia they fled for
their lives.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:07:12 GMT
	<1992Aug5.132631.11439@dscomsf.desy.de> <4428@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>
	<1992Aug11.152038.1571@dscomsf.desy.de>
	<1992Aug12.221202.22829@bony1.bony.com>
	<1992Aug18.231549.23340@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu's message of 18 Aug 92 23:15:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.231549.23340@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
> In a previous article, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) says:
>
> >Shamirs actions in offering to aid the NAZIs who were busy perfecting
> >methods of murdering Jews is hardly consistent with the goal of "saving
> >Jewish lives". It is however entirely consistent with the theory that
> >Shamir was only interested in forming a dictatorial state with himself
> >as leader. 
>
> Let's get real here.  Shamir wasn't offering aid;  he was trying to deal
> with them in order to save Jewish lives.

How many times will people repeat this baseless statement without even
attempting to provide evidence for it?

Mr. Stein, please provide even the slimmest shred of evidence
(EVIDENCE!) that LEHI was trying to deal with the Nazis "in order to
save Jewish lives".

I will gladly consider ANYTHING in the way of evidence that you can come
up with.

Unfortunately, you have none, and you're just making this supposed
rationale up in order to retroactively justify their actions.
Furthermore, another poster, Mr. Ben-Ami, is at this very moment busy
"proving" that nobody knew or even believed at the time what the Nazis'
designs on Jews were.

LEHI: "The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national
       and totalitarian basis, which will maintain contacts with the
       German Reich, is a German interest, for strengthening and
       protecting the German power posts which will be established in
       the near future in the Near East."
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Dr. Arens and Israel
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:34:04 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il's message of 13 Aug 92 12:58:33 GMT

In article <13AUG199216025832@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>
> Dr. Yigal Arens <arens@ICI.EDU>, in Message-ID: <22187@venera.isi.edu> 
>   writes:
>
> >This whole line of argument of yours is pretty shakey, and I truly
> >suspect you would never try anything like it if a country other than
> >Israel were involved.  
>
> Although not written to me, this is - to my eyes - one of the
> more remarkable statements written by Dr. Arens.
>
> I have always wondered at the extent of distortion that the 
> name Israel adds to his reading of news.  Something that would
> be acceptable and even praiseworthy when associated with any
> other land, becomes evil and filled with duplicity in his view
> when associated with Israel.  
>
> In my own lack of articulacy, I was never able to describe the
> phenomenon as well as he himself has done.

It is so pleasant to see another non-ad-hominem-even-in-the-slightest
posting by Mr. Werman.  What a refreshing respite from the usual trash
we see in this newsgroup...
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 20:57:01 GMT


In a previous article, oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek) says:

>
>  Excuse-me (this is not provokation, but a serious question) :
>  How durable is this decision ?. i.e, did Israel issue a law against building
>  new settlements ? (and i think it didn't concerne ALL sttlements, but i'll
>  be more than happy if i'm wrong). Or is it a "verbal" decision which can be
>  reversed at any moment ?.
>
President Bush reserved the right to cancel loan guarantees if he decides
that settlements are being expanded or started.
 
>
>  Palestinians OWN the land where they live, they OWNED most of YOUR ISRAEL
>  before 48.

In 1948, the Palestinians were called Arabs and the Jews were also called
Palestinians.

In any case, most of the land was owned by the sovereign, and so that
ownership passed from the Ottomans to the British to the Israelis.  The
private land which Arabs owned remained Arab owned, except where they sold
it, voluntarily abandoned it, or was legally expropriated, with just
compensation offered, under the same practices of eminent domain we use
here in America.

> Palestine is Palestine, ...

and was Eretz Yisrael before it was called Palestine.

>  ...  and Palestinians are going to have their
>  right, you like it or not. You may shout  Jordan=Palestine all the day (the
>  same as Mutlu shouting "Armenians killed 2.5 Turks in cold blood") it doesn't
>  make it true.
>
You are quite correct.  Shouting that it's true isn't what makes it true,
and you're shouting that it isn't true isn't going to make it false.

If I may quote a few prominent Arabs:

King Hussein:  "The two nations [the Jordanian and the Palestinian] are, in
fact, one."

King Abdullah:  "Palestine and Transjordan are one, for Palestine is the
coastline and Transjordan the hinterland of the same country."

The Palestinian National Covenant:  "Palestine, with its British mandate
boundaries on both banks of the Jordan, is one unit that is indivisible."

Or do you wish to claim that those were all lies, from the mouths of liars?
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.flame
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: U.S. Plans to overfly & control southern Iraq, improper?
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:37:58 GMT

In article <7759@public.BTR.COM> rem@btr.btr.com writes:
>From biz.clarinet.sample: <<... the U-S plans to establish air patrols
>over southern Iraq in order to keep Saddam Hussein's planes from
>attacking Shiite villagers. A Pentagon official who asked NOT to be
>named said the U-S will enforce what he called a ``NO-fly'' zone in
>southern Iraq.>>
>
>Isn't this a violation of Iraq's airspace and sovergnity? It's one
>thing for the U.S. to act under U.N. banner to support a U.N. sanction,
>but it's another for the U.S. to unilaterally commit an act of war on
>another nation, even if the other nation has been naughty lately.


No, it is legitimate under the terms of the UN cease-fire agreed to by 
Iraq.  More importantly, there is a moral imperative to prevent the further
slaughter of Iraqi citizens in Southern Iraq by its government.  We have
already stood by while the Iraqi government slaughtered hundreds of thousands
of its own citizens through its own blockades of food and medicine from a 
majority of its population and military action after it was defeated in the 
Gulf War.   We cannot allow the slaughter to contintue.
-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Date: 23 Aug 92 01:44:13 GMT
Organization: Australian National University

rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>>Nabil wrote:
>>Why then in 1948 when the Arab majority opposed the establishment
>>of the Jewish state did not rule?

>The Arab "majority" tried to oppose the establishment of the Jewish
>state in the UN's General Assembly, which is the majority-rule body
>among nations, and got voted down by majority rule. I believe they
>got one vote from a non-Muslim country, that being Cuba; and that's
>even with having tried to buy Costa Rica's vote and G-d alone knows
>how many others. They were voted down anyway. 

What a weird definition of democracy you have.  The UN vote on
Palestine was taken against the wishes of a large majority of the
inhabitants, and there is no way around it.  

In any case, I question your description.  The necessary number of
votes was only obtained because the US actively bullied a number
of countries into changing sides.  All this is well documented. 

>	-Nora

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 20:31:17 GMT

In article <25057@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.211444.5946@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>=>
>=>In a previous article, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) says:
>=>>
>=>>International Law? This is a joke. If there is any law in the world
>=>>I will be living now with my parents in Haifa.
>=>
>=>If they hadn't decided, of their own free will, against the pleading of
>=>Jewish leaders, to leave, then you might.  But don't blame the Israelis.
>=>
>=>At the time that virtually the entire Arab population of Haifa left, the
>=>British police (no friends of the Jews!) reported that "every effort is
>=>being made by the Jews to pursuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on
>=>with their normal lives, ... and to be assured that their lives and
>=>interests will be safe."  The Haganah even ordered that no Arab's
>=>possessions be touched, and warned that anyone who violated that order
>=>would be severely punished.
>=>
>=>Your parents apparently voluntarily left Haifa, and have no more right to
>=>return their than my grandparents had to return to the Russia they fled for
>=>their lives.
>
>I really don't understand how you have the gall to continue to post this
>sort of fantasy. Just a few days ago Brendan (I think) posted a whole bunch
>of contemporary reports detailing the way the inhabitants were driven out
>of their homes, and now here you are indulging in yet another obnoxious
>flight of wishful thinking. Maybe you could get a job in Belgrade?
>

Yes, it is like 40 years from now a Serb will tell a bosnian: your parents
left Bosnia at their own free will. We Serb leaders urged you bosnians not
to leave but you left despite our plee. You don't have the right to 
return to Bosnia today.

>
>-- 
>==================================================================
>-Jeremy Henderson            |  Une souris verte
> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk	     |  Qui courrait dans l'herbe
>==================================================================


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Aug12.165048.21097@u.washington.edu>
	<EGGERTJ.92Aug12160510@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Aug14.181935.23236@bony1.bony.com>
Date: 15 Aug 92 15:07:42

In article <1992Aug14.181935.23236@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   Correct.  I listed several among many widely known terrorist actions 
>   that the PLO has proudly taken credit over several decades of
>   terrorist activity and which continue until today.  You then call me
>   "dishonest" for not finding similar examples of such attrocities in
>   Lebanon.

No, Jake, that is not exactly what you posted.  You listed several
among many widely known terrorist actions that the PLO has taken
"credit" (or perhaps more correctly debit) for, and phrased this list
as a question for examples of Israeli terrorism of the same kind.
That is what is intellectually dishonest.

It was intellectually dishonest because the list was tailored to match
what the PLO has done, and not to match what Israel has done.  If, for
example, you had included on the list "bomb libraries" or "dress up as
the opposition and go into their town and kill them" or "bomb civilian
airliners", then similar examples of Israeli terrorism would be at
hand.

|In article <1992Aug5.221739.13160@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|=>
|=>Where are the burned out school buses, downed airliners, hijacked
|=>cruiseships, bloodied airports, dead Olympics athletes, kidnapped 
|=>diplomats and murdered schoolchildren that Arf proposes are victims 
|=>of Israel's "terrorism"?  Where are the Leon Klinghoffers, Robert Stethems,
|=>Colonel Higginses that have been murdered at the hands of Israeli "terrorism"?
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
Subject: Dr. Arens and Israel
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:58:33 GMT


Dr. Yigal Arens <arens@ICI.EDU>, in Message-ID: <22187@venera.isi.edu> 
                writes:

>This whole line of argument of yours is pretty shakey, and I truly
>suspect you would never try anything like it if a country other than
>Israel were involved.  


******************************

Although not written to me, this is - to my eyes - one of the
more remarkable statements written by Dr. Arens.

I have always wondered at the extent of distortion that the 
name Israel adds to his reading of news.  Something that would
be acceptable and even praiseworthy when associated with any
other land, becomes evil and filled with duplicity in his view
when associated with Israel.  

In my own lack of articulacy, I was never able to describe the
phenomenon as well as he himself has done.


__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Loan Guarantees
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 20:34:25 GMT

In article <3568@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>I didn't see any postings in regard to Bush's latest ploy to
>obtain popular support - guaranteeing the $10 billion to
>Israel solely on Rabin's word of freezing settlement activity.

Actually, Rabin has already frozen the settlement activity (you must
have missed a bunch of postings and international news) and the $10B
guarantee is only on Bush's word, so far.  It seems that you have
reality back to front again. 

>Do posters here really believe that Bush is anti-semitic now
>and are they understanding the reality of politics and its
>cycle?

Actually, I don't think that Bush is anti-semitic, but his buddy and
lifeguard, James Baker, probably is.  The reality of politics is that
Bush NEEDS to show some progress on some front.  His domestic policies
have left the US bleeding and his foreign policies haven't come up
with much real beef.  By finally offering the guarantees, he can say
that there is still some progress (though it remains to be seen if the
Arab side of the dispute can offer anything real or if the M.E. will
go back to it's usual inertia).

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.misc
From: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
Subject: Advertising on the Net - NOTES FROM A SEALED ROOM
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:35:23 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Keywords: Persian Gulf War


Although I am reluctant to advertise, and particularly to
advertise myself on the net, I am about to do that and
advertise the appearance of my new book on three nets,
listed above.  

I justify my action by the warm and sometimes cold, but
always passionate reception my diary of the Israeli
experience of the Scud encounters from readers of these
three nets where the daily reports appeared, in real
time.

I sent out about 40 notices of the book's impending 
appearance on email yesterday and I admit hoping that
someone else would transmit my notice to the nets.
But no one did and the onerous task falls on my 
shoulders.  The self-advertisement appears in the
following posting.



__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem