From: skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Crusades; Once more into the breach
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 19:18:00 GMT

rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:

>In article <1992Aug12.151711.21180@csrd.uiuc.edu> skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner) writes:

>>merlyn@digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy) writes:

>>>C'mon, it prescribes the death penalty for many things I don't
>>>consider crimes, like homosexual acts.  Where's the peace & freedom
>>>here?  Or do you ignore that part of the bible?

>>In a private exchange, I asked Mr. LeRoy to support for this claim
>>(that Christianity prescribes the death penalty for homosexual acts).
>>He gave me Leviticus.  I countered with Paul ("no longer under the
>>law, but under grace") and pointed out that for Christianity the new
>>covenant has replaced the old of which Leviticus is a part.  I
>>explained that this is straightforward, orthodox Christianity.  He
>>countered that Paul, being just a human, had no authority to say that
>>about God's law.  I pointed out that if we throw out the authority of
>>the apostle Paul, we are no longer talking about Christianity, which
>>was essentially founded by Paul.  I asked him to differentiate between
>>Christianity and Judaism.  He had nothing more to say.  I await his
>>retraction.

(Clarification: My basic problem with Mr. LeRoy's assertion is with
the "death penalty" part.)

>All right, then why is it consistently Christian groups that oppose gay
>rights (read: basic civil rights for all people irrespective of sexual
>orientation), whereas Jewish groups either don't consider it a major
>issue or actively support gay rights?

I think it's safe to suggest that Mr. LeRoy would say that Judaism
prescribes the death penalty for homosexual acts as well.  None of the
following matters to him, as for him one defines a religion without
regard to the actions or beliefs of its adherents.

>  Modulo Matthew Rosenblatt (who
>seems to preach a rather harsh brand of Judaism compared to other people
>I know, and I have Orthodox people in my family), I have yet to hear
>*any* Jewish person openly oppose gay rights.

>You might note that while these harsh penalties are prescribed in
>theory, the evidential standards that are required (based on rabbinical
>rulings) are high indeed, by intent.  An old saying (it may be from the
>Talmud) is that one rabbi said that a rabbinical court that executed one
>person in seven years was bloodthirsty; another rabbi replied that
>execution of one person in seventy years was bloodthirsty.

Mr. LeRoy says that we should not talk about Christians; we should
talk about Christianity.  I don't understand this distinction, and he
has been unwilling to elaborate.  Evidently neither the actions nor
the beliefs of Christians factor into the question "What is
Christianity?"  At the same time, the fact that some Christians cite
Leviticus as a reason to condemn homosexual acts means we must say
that the Levitican law is a part of Christianity.  Therefore not all
actions are excluded.  Now I don't want to play word games.  I keep
asking Mr. LeRoy to expand a bit so I can understand how these words
are being used, but so far he has been unwilling to comply.

I think it is generally known that homosexual acts are frowned upon by
most Christians (Disclaimer: I am not saying anything about my own
opinions).  Their strongest support comes not from the Jewish Torah
but from translations of the words of Paul.  This may help explain the
difference in the actions of typical Jewish and Christian groups.
Certainly some Christians go so far as to work toward legal
persecution of homosexuals (certain "fundamentalists" come to mind as
obvious examples).  As an aside, I suggest that there is little or no
textual support for their action.  Other Christian groups oppose
legislating morality, and thus do not consider the legality of
homosexuality a major issue.  What do these examples say?  Well,
nothing, except that it's difficult to make generalizations about an
entire religion.  Certainly some support is needed for a sweeping
assertion such as Mr. LeRoy's.  But so far, he has only said
"Leviticus" over and over.  My hope in moving this back to the public
forum is that it will motivate him to explain himself more fully.

To Mr. LeRoy:

Perhaps we need to start over.  If you would like to support your
assertion, let's throw out the past and begin by agreeing on a
definition for Christianity.  We can proceed from there.  If you
decide not to support your assertion, then I will gladly accept your
silent retraction.
--
Gregg Skinner                 I do not speak for any organization.