From: ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: Soul
Organization: HFS, Inc., McLean VA
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 01:16:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.050404.14156@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>It seems to me that from Adam on, free will has not been too gods
>taste. Did not the armies that stood before the Ark of the Covenant
>perish? It is likely that without divine power, things would not always
>go so well. And did not the ten commandments rather restrict the
>excercise of free will?  It seems that the OT is full of god stepping
>in and changing things, often in major ways. The god of the OT was
>a vengeful god, was he not? Do what he says or perish. Free will?
>Where?

Rich, I see a difference between free will (the freedom to choose
the way I wish to behave) and reaping the consequence of the
choice I made.  After all, if God wanted to do violence to free
will, then all he would have to have done was to *make* the armies
that stood before the Ark voluntarily surrender.  He could have
*made* Pharoh let the Israelites go their way, and spared everyone
the 10 plagues.  But he didn't.  Yes, I see God intervening but I
guess I don't see this intervention as being contrary to our free
will.

>
>>I believe that sometimes he makes ideas clearer (grace, for this
>>discussion) to us but that we are always free to reject them. 
>
>Grace n. 6a. Divine love and protection given to Mankind by God.
>          b. A virtue granted by God.
>
>I am also unclear on what grace is. My paperback Websters gives no
>definition which pertains to making ideas clearer. But is a virtue
>granted of the same value as a virtue learned?

There is no if and only if relationship here between grace and the
"clearer ideas" in the above examples.  I only meant clarity of
thought as *a* grace or gift from God more in line with 6b above.
Think of it as you would a pair of glasses to someone who is
nearsighted and is trying to learn how to read.  The glasses help
them to see clearer, but it is still up to them to make the effort
to learn.

>
>>For example, if I know someone who has a problem stealing, then I
>>might pray for that person.  Now God might enlighten that person
>>so that they realizes that it is wrong to steal or help them if
>>the stealing is compulsive so that they are able to overcome this
>>behaviour, but *only* with the cooperation of their will.  If they
>>are unwilling to stop and cooperate with the grace that has been
>>given to them, then God will not infringe on their free will.
>
>It seems to me that if god did this in answer to -your- prayer, then
>his(her, its???) free will has been infringed upon. If it was a request
>by the person with the problem, then it would not. 

Why?  He hasn't force His will on that person.  That person is still free
to continue to steal.

>
>>This is why it is never a good idea to judge anyone because we
>>never have the full picture as to what grace that person had at
>>the time.  Only God knows that and can make a determination as to
>>how sinful a particular action actually is.
>
>So then what judges do is wrong? If someone burgalizes my house, and
>I catch them in the act, I will judge that they have done me wrong,
>and I do not see how anything will change this. By this kind of
>reasoning (if I understand what you are saying) Jeffrey Daumer (sp?)
>should have been set free, given his upbringing, he could do nothing
>else.

I was talking about personal judgement here.  Judges have a civil
obligation to make sure that justice according to the laws of their
jurisdiction are carried out.  There is no determination there on how
sinful a person actually is and in fact is probably not even related.

>
>>                                                 After all, if
>>they knew that the only reason they won a particular game was
>>because God bent the physical rules for them or made the opposing
>>team play suboptimally, then where is the merit in winning the
>>game?  I can see a player asking God to help them play to the best
>>of their ability at the time, however...
>
>Then why should anybody pray for anything? 

I guess I don't follow you, what do you mean?

>Rich
>
>payner@netcom.com


-- 
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