From: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Subject: Re: Attack of the Seperatists
Originator: bbooth@bcrks6
Reply-To: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Organization: BNR, Ottawa, ON, Canada
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:01:11 GMT


Iseult wrote:
> But what bothers me most, in discussions with anti-feminists, is 
> a constant insistence that feminism is an anti-male movement.  To
> me, feminism is a movement about women, for women. It cannot
> be defined in terms of men. 

I agree, but the feminist movement is defined in terms of men
because that is who is seen as the oppressor.  The feminist
movement would not exist if the patriarch didn't exist.  But
not all men, like most feminists, subscribe to the patriarch.

> Why do I so rarely here men countering
> perceived attacks on themselves, with the parallels in their own
> lives, as opposed to dismissing feminism and feminists.

Maybe you hang out with the wrong men?  ;)

> I will re-iterate, I felt that Vikkis attack on Roy was unwarranted,
> but I was equally annoyed by the counter attacks, that seeked to dismiss
> Vikki as a feminist, and as a separtist, as opposed to simply countering
> her views as a person.

True.  I didn't try to dismiss her views because I felt she was a
feminist and a separatist (didn't understand what people meant by
separatist until I read the posts... I thought it had something to
do with Quebec *smile*).  I disliked her views because she seemed
sexist, anti-choice and judgemental about BDSM.

> Why so much anger...

No anger.  A little depressed that I was being judged because I'm a
man.

> I would like this to be a place that I too feel
> comfortable.  We all know how tough it is to find a sense of bi
> community.  Increasingly in the last months, I have found that I
> do not feel comfortable here as a woman, and naturally that is a
> very important part of my identity.

Hmmm... that's not good.  Maybe you should get your crutch out and
whip us all into shape. ;)

> I like men, I am attracted
> to men, I enjoy men, but more and more I find myself distancing myself
> from men, and becoming more integrated in the lesbian community. 

What's wrong with that?  If it's important to you, then there can't be 
anything wrong with it.

> So much so that I am currently invovled in a relationship, where I have
> not yet told the individual that I am bi.  That is a first for me, and
> it hurts. 

That's not good... not good that it hurts.  If you feel that it's 
important for this person to know, then you should tell them and
deal with the issue.  I've seen some good relationships end because
the cards were not laid out on the table to start with.  Good luck.

> I would like to see evidence that there are more men, as you
> would have it, that do understand womens issues. 

I would like to see it too.  It's a shame that there a very few good
apples in the whole orchard.

> I do not
> find this evidence on this group in general, though there are a number
> of notable examples, who I believe would have enough confidence in 
> their own views, that they would know who they are, without my spelling
> it out.

They probably do... but it doesn't hurt once in a while to remind
them.

> And this is my last word ......  

'K... mine too...


Blessings,

    __o     Brad Booth              | "I want you/
  _`\<,_    Bell-Northern Research  |  to know me only as/
 (*)/ (*)   Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |  what I believe I am."
----------  bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca  |     ... Fiftyfour-40
Newsgroups: soc.bi