From: randyc@Autodesk.COM (Randy Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay men personals...
Date: 9 Jan 93 01:09:36 GMT
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA


If my message seems too redundant, I apologize.
I've accidentally killed some of the followups,
though some of the ones I've seen have made
good and interesting points.


In article <1993Jan6.031637.5579@athena.mit.edu> sun@athena.mit.edu
 (Tigua Alan Naghel Jackson) writes:
>I recently found myself attracted to a white guy, which isn't unusual
>since I don't limit myself to any race.  But being a man of color, black
>with a little French and Native American, I'm constantly forced to 
>consider the implications of dating someone white.  I should say, it's more
>that being a black American I am forced to consider the implications
>of dating a white.  Particularly, the prime question is: is he
>dating me because I'm black?

	Everyone seems to agree this is a tough question,
	and I feel myself right in the middle of it.

	Like you, I don't limit myself to or against any
	race/ethnic group, nor would I want to do so.
	(I suspect that -- as Greg Parkinson says of himself
	-- that I *am* more limited by class and culture
	than I would prefer.)

	On the other hand, my tendency to prefer almost
	any type *but* fair-haired white types is so well
	known in soc.motss circles that this reputation,
	to my bemusement, preceded me to Amsterdam last summer.

	So as it happens, I *have* been in the position of
	asking myself if I am going for someone because of
	their racial/ethnic background.  I have to admit
	that, like other aspects of physical appearance, this
	can be a factor in initial attraction.

	The further question becomes, am I then being
	exploitative?  I don't believe I am, because if
	someone doesn't also engage me personally as
	well, I will lose interest just as readily
	in a matter of minutes.

	Unless, of course, the two of us are feeling
	mutually trashy.  But that's a consensual act.
>
>This is all secondary, though, to the reason why I'm posting in the first
>place which is for white men to consider: When placing an ad why say,
>'GWM seeks same, no fats no fems' when what you mean to say is,
>'GWM seeks <whatever> no colored, no fats, no fems...'?
>
>Of course, my version is 'racist.'  But I'm the only one saying that...
>
>Because denial does nothing...
>I think that an admission of the true state of affairs in your mind set 
>can only weaken the huge racial barrier that exists within the gay community.

	For those of whom what you say is true, I agree
	with you.

	As someone of whom nearly the opposite is true, and
	thus a member of a group that *also* evokes discomfort
	among many readers from this group, all I can really
	say is that being objectified can be a most uncomfortable
	feeling (with which I'm also familiar!), but that I think
	there's a component of objectification in any attraction.

	My favorite exchange along these lines:

	Feminist friend: "I just don't consider physical
		appearance."
	Me (who has seen her behave otherwise): "Even if
		they have no butt?"
	Friend: "That would be a problem."
>
>I'm not interested in any responses although that's not to say that
>I won't entertain them...
>I just wanted to bring something to attention for personal reflection.
>
>tigua

	My parting thought is that personals are, after all,
	advertisements, and therefore mostly pretentious hype
	no matter who writes them.  There are exceptions, of
	course, and there are those -- or trends among them --
	that point to some serious, even nasty issues among us,
	as you pointed out very well.

	-R 


-- 

Randy Clark	 		 {}!autodesk.com!randyc
"Whose mind is it that doesn't suffer a loud takeover
once in a while?" -- Maxine Hong Kingston
Newsgroups: soc.motss