From: S_BAUDE@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de (Siegbert Baude)
Subject: Re: Let's hit Nazis?
Organization: University of Ulm, Germany
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:26:12 GMT
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> I am not sure but my life in totalitarian state
> showed me that even if you want you couldn't ignore ideology. It is in every
> book, in every movie, in every radio program. Sometimes you will be asked to
> repeat it yourself openly, so that everybody would understand that you are not
> against state. I don't think everybody read "Mein Kampf", but I think
> everybody knew main ideas. And "relations" with Jews were among them
>
That really is an interesting point. Are there differences in bringing
ideology to people, on one hand in Germany 33-45 and on other hand in the
USSR or Eastern Germany after 1948 ?
Who knows anything exact about this topic?
As far as I know ( but I'm not sure) there were no ideologic lessons in
school (Germany 33-45). What my father told me (born 1933) about his time
within the Hitler-Jugend (he had to join the so-called "Pimpfe"), resembles
me in playing Cowboy and Indians. Besides they had to e.g. help in farms,
collect wood and such things( I'm living in a small town in the
countryside).
But there was no ideologic "training" at all.

> > 
> But germans were generally more cruel during WW2! You could find a lot of 
> reason, like bad life after WW1 and so on, but is it important. The problem is
> that all these cruelties made the whole nation more cruel. And it would take 
> more then 2 generations to overcome moral consequences of 12 years Nazi power.

I'm not sure, if you can say, that Germans were generally more cruel. Think
of what happened in the Balcan area (one of the main reasons for today's
cruelties and hate in this region)where Serbians and Croatians fought
against each other.
And other war crimes happened in all areas, involved by the war. Of course
there always was the additional attempt of "ethnic cleaning" on the German
side.

> But you do agree that the most part of Germans who voted for NSDAP (and 
> probably KPD) should be condemned? I am not saying that their reason was "All
> Germans like to be Nazis". But on the other hand these reasons were not enough
> even with what was known in 1932.

I think that there was a big crowd(exactly as  nowadays), who was not
interested in politics at all. Why shouldn't they vote for someone
promising work and food( not to forget that Hitler gave them the feeling "to
be someone" again, after the depressing end of WW I and the recession of
end 20's)? KPD as well wanted another form of state ( no democracy but
communism); why should'nt they vote for somebody who is in favour of
fascism ? Many wanted a monarchy again(destroyed only 14 years ago). Hitler
resembled that most.
Be careful in assuming what people COULD know and what they really DID
know. Intellectuals are a minor percentage in each society.
BTW I would never "condemn" anyone because of his vote. That's pluralism.


> I agree. Persons who made a crime (and we should prove it) should not be a 
> concern of newsgroups, they should be taken to court. What I am talking about
> is a moral guilt of people who were old enough by 1945 and didn't rise their
> voice against crimes,about which they knew. Because of many reasons that makes
> almost all nation. That is why I am talking about "Germans", not about list of
> names. All people who were born after let's say 1927 are not guilty at all.
> Most of them have nothing to do with Nazis (at least I hope so). They made no 
> crime. Nobody should accuse them. However I am not forgetting that they were
> *influenced* by their parents and grandparents who are bearing moral guilt. 
> That's why I am trying lets say "suspicious" when somebody is saying: "I am
> German. But I was born after 1945 and so 'de facto' I have as much in common
> with Nazis as you." That is what you are doing. You are not hiting Nazis. For
> example I think that I am influenced by communists much stronger then you and
> so have much more in common with them (or you are from East Germany? Then you
> are really in trouble... :-)).   

Nowadays it's easy to attach moral attributes. None of us actually
lived in this situation. Do you *surely* know how you would have acted in
this situaion. Don't forget that your life was threatened, if you opposed
the Nazis. (Think of SA troups) Hitler hadn`t the necessary 2/3 majority in
the Reichstag for the so-called Ermaechtigungsgesetz of 1933. Only after he
had most members of the opposition arrested before this vote.
If he could do this to member's of Parliament, what could he do to a normal
citizen (already in 1933 and before).
I'm happy that I live nowadays and don't have fear for my live because of
my opinions.
So nor do I blame any person of the Ex-DDR or the USSR before perestroika,
that they didn't call their regimes criminal. Everybody knew what happened
to people, who were against the party. And nevertheless the number who
actually said that was very small.
I think that blaming anybody for his silence or vote is *NOT* the correct
conclusion of that period. (and BTW worthless as most of them are dead).
The CORRECT conclusion is: learn of our (great-)parents errors.
Don't allow populistic vote-catchers to influence your attitude towards
foreigners.
Stand to your opinions even it's unpopular.

And referring to your "suspicious" attitudes towards the children of those
times people. They built the '68 generation , so I can see slight ;-)
differences.
If I hear nowadays of Neo-Nazis, I first try to show them th errors in
their beliefs. And only if they don't want to understand, I blame them for
ignorance and fascistic hate. I think that's not even allowed (because
TODAY  I can say what they could (or should)know) but a duty for everybody.
Looking at the huge demonstrations AGAINST racism and fascism, I'm not
afraid what is concerned to nowadays Germans.

>                                Victor Abkevich


Ciao ,

Siegbert Baude

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