From: black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236))
Subject: Re: swan hunting
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:06:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.222900.24997@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.195101.6056@clpd.kodak.com> black@che.serum.kodak.com (Rob
>ert Black (x37236)) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep4.203237.13105@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jhoskins@magnus.a
>cs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep4.154150.11709@clpd.kodak.com> black@che.serum.kodak.com (
>Ro
>>>bert Black (x37236)) writes:
>>>>
>>>>If you're saying that ARs fail to appreciate that there is incredible
>>>>suffering within the natural world, then you're probably wrong.  ARs do
>>>>realize this and they also realize that a certain amount of cruelty is
>>>>human-caused and preventable.
>>>>
>>>>Granted it may not make a difference to the natural world, but don't you
>>>>agree that the amount suffering and the method of death make a big
>>>>difference to the deer?  ... just like the amount of pain you suffer and
>>>>the method by which you die, though irrelevant to the natural world,
>>>>are probably very important to you.
>>>
>>>Yes. I once lived in a place where animals were slaughtered in the presence
>>>of other animals.  In particular, one beautiful prize ram was being
>>>kept around and fed choice food to be fattened up for his ultimate
>>>demise.  He witnessed a succession of smaller and less impressive
>>>animals have their throats cut, gasp for breath, twitch and expire--
>>>right in front of him.  To the extent that I'm using the right word, the
>>>animal clearly went "insane" from his experiences.   I was there when
>>>he was killed; he knew it was coming, I felt the animals's panic and
>>>sensed its level of comprehension of what was happening to it.
>>
>>Though I have never personally eyewitnessed such a stirring and stark
>>drama as you describe, I have no problem accepting your interpretation
>>of what the ram was experiencing.  But how you do answer those who would
>>dismiss your words as idle projections of human feelings onto animals,
>>that is, as sentimental unscientific anthropomorphizing?
>>
>>---
>>Robert Black
>>black@serum.kodak.com  - The ONLY email address that MIGHT work.
>>These views are not necessarily the views of my employers.
>
>
>Misinformed.  And we were so damn hungry and starving that he tasted good
>when we ate him, and I at least had a profound sense of gratitude for what
>he provided us.

"Misinformed" is a very uninformative answer, which could serve as a
universal generic response to any statement.  How do your answer
statements like the following lifted out of context from 
motto@cbnewsf.cb.att.com.  These statements appear to conflict
directly with your own observations and interpretations:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> From what I have read, personification of animals is common in the
> Animal Rights movement literature.

[...]

... to ascribe a personality to an animal would require that
I consider an animal to have the mental characteristics and emotional
characteristics of a human being.  Nothing in my experiences with
a great number of animals has ever led me to believe that they
have those types of characteristics. ...

[...]

... dogs don't have contemplations and emotions.  Humans wrongly
project their own emotional and philosophical interpretations of the actions
of dogs and label them as the thoughts and feelings of dogs.  The same
for other animals.

[...]

.... Humans project their own emotions
about the suffering onto the animal because it is an instinctive
behavior that has enabled us to live in societal groups.  When we
have little or no interaction with animals in the wild, we have
all our interactions with humans.  It affects our behavior.  It
causes us to react to the animal as if it were human, simply because
there is no other pattern of behavior.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(Note: There is no intention to alter the original meaning or intent of
any of these statements by extracting them from the original posting to
save bandwidth.  These were selected because they were some of the best
articulations of this particular viewpoint.)

---
Robert Black 
black@serum.kodak.com  - The ONLY email address that MIGHT work.
These views are not necessarily the views of my employers.