From: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan)
Subject: Re: Islam/sects (wasRe:CFV:soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya)
	<1ebr5pINNobv@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU>
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 02:18:06 GMT
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In article <1ebr5pINNobv@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>   > 	Sorry, don't agree.
>   > 	The Quranic statements against sectarianism are only natural,
>   > as Muhammad was still alive at the time.  Thus there was no room for
>   > difference of opinion; any doubts could be resolved by direct
>   > revelation through him.
>
>   Then why is there no statement in the Qur'an stating that these rules
>   cease to be valid after the prophet's (pbuh) death?  Instead, we find
>   statements that the Qur'an is timeless.  How is this consistent with
>   your claims?

	Timelessness does not preclude the possibility that certain
parts of the message were meant to apply to a particular set of
circumstances.  Indeed, the logical problem of identifying a "true
Islam" among the many sects WITHOUT divine guidance (see below) is
what requires that the ban against sects be lifted at Muhammad's
death.  So I am not trying to annul the idea of timelessness, but to
defend it.

>   > 	However, after the death of Muhammad the situation changes
>   > radically.  If any confusion/difference of opinion arises as to the
>   > true meaning of a Quranic verse, people will obviously have to rely
>   > upon themselves to resolve those differences.  There cannot be any ban
>   > on sectarianism in effect any more, because such a ban requires that
>   > one be able to separate out the "true" religion from the "false" sect.
>   > A Messenger from God would have no trouble doing that; but lacking
>   > divine guidance, no one else could be expected to perform this duty
>   > reliably!  So how do you guarantee that the truth isn't thrown out by
>   > mistake?  You can't.
>   > 	Relying on consensus doesn't work here, as the problem is one
>   > of information.  More uninformed people are no more likely to reach
>   > the right answer.
>
>   I guess you haven't heard of Ijtehad?  Ijtehad (consensus) was
>   practiced even by the earliest companions of the prophet (pbuh).  On
>   issues where the prophet did not clearly rule in a particular way, we
>   have to decided through Ijtehad, a consensus amongst knowledgeable
>   believers.

	I have heard of it, and that is why I made the above
statements.  The fact is that consensus will not work in this case;
nothing short of divine guidance will determine which is the "true"
Islam.  
	And nothing is shocking about this.  The companions of the
prophet, along with their methods, were by no means infallible.
	So my conclusion remains- you can't tell the real from the
false.  Hence, sects must be allowed.

>   > 	Thus your use of the Quran to ban sectarianism doesn't work;
>   > true, people who reject the Quran can not be called Muslims.  But the
>   > reason sects have come about is not rejection of the Quran, but
>   > difference in the interpretation of certain Quranic verses.
>
>   But what about cases where the Qur'an is only partially believed in?
>   This is the situation we face here.  Is this not a contradiction of
>   Islam which says to *believe* in all of it?
>
>   > 	To look at it simply; you seem to be saying that the Ahmadias
>   > (and by extension, other sects) are in error as they have deviated
>   > from the true message of the Quran.  But that ignores the possibility
>   > that these deviant opinions may have been arrived at through a
>   > legitimate process of reinterpretation of the Islamic texts, which is
>   > an essential aspect of Islam after the death of the Prophet.  So how
>   > do you know that they aren't right?
>
>   My claim is that there is a direct contradiction with the Qur'an.

	I disagree.  At least with respect to Ahmadis, there is only
reinterpretation; specifically, of the verse which claims Muhammad to
be the "Seal of the Prophets". 

farewell-
zeeshan
--
Zeeshan Hasan 
zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu
OCMR Box 1529, Oberlin College, Oberlin, Ohio 44074. Phone:(216)775-6447
	"I love mankind... it's people I can't stand!" -- Linus van Pelt





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