HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rauchway@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Andrew Rauchway)
Subject: Re: I need a word
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 17:40:39 GMT

In article <Bt2Cvu.1pq@well.sf.ca.us> dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood) writes:
>
>That's not how I understand the term "straw man".  A "straw man" is an
>attribution to one's opponent of a stronger claim than the opponent actually
>makes, in order to tear it down.
>
Well, I've seen several people asking and debating the meaning of this term,
and I think D Anton has got it about right if not entirely right.  BUT . . .

(I tried to post this a while ago and it didn't seem to work, so I'll try 
again)

Since the OED doesn't appear to have this term and is therefore mute on its
provenance, I'm guessing that the term "straw man" comes from the English
Guy Fawkes celebration, in which the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot to
blow up Parliament is commemorated.  Folks burn straw effigies of Fawkes.
Therefore a straw man is a phony representation of an opponent or opposing
argument that is set up merely to be destroyed.  Or something like that.

Didn't Eliot have a straw man reference in "The Hollow Men"?  My copy is,
alas, in storage. . . .

Eric Rauchway                    /      My opinions are mine, and not those
rauchway@leland.stanford.edu     /      of the department or university.

Department of History                  Stanford University

*****Those who do not remember history are doomed to flunk my class.*****
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:57:11 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Aug13.152214.2350@leland.Stanford.EDU> rauchway@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Andrew Rauchway) writes:

>So any takers?  Who believes me that the canon we've been kicking around
>in r.a.b. is a straw man and that the actual field of endeavor is
>a lot more open?

*waving my hand exictedly and jumping up and down*
 
	That's the attitude I've decided to take. I will read, and
perhaps later teach, that literature which is compelling and which
causes one to expand one's understanding of oneself and the rest of
the world.  If they happen not to be included in "the canon", so be
it. If they are "canonical"....well Lah-Dee-Dahh! 
	I'm more interested in literature than in any little canon.



-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14710 rec.humor:26171 alt.folklore.urban:21507 rec.arts.sf.misc:2594 alt.religion.kibology:3493
From: carolo@cse.ucsc.edu (Carol Osterbrock)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: 15 Aug 92 23:18:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rainier.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Aug7.203126.20740@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> johng@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (john.gustavson) writes:
>
>Would you people please take this discussion to another newsgroup ?

Yeah, and not this one, either.
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Carol Osterbrock       *       Such a long, long time to be gone
carolo@cse.ucsc.edu    *         And a short time to be there...
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 16:42:56 GMT


Barclay Blanchard writes:

	 I was raised Methodist and haven't read any novels for which that
	 was helpful.



Almost anything with Old Testement references and allegory.  I was raised
Catholic and one summer attended a Methodist Summer school day class 
with a friend.  They told "Bible" story that were really neat.  Lots
of fighting and whipping around in the desert and floods and famine
and all the stuff not in the New Testement.

Only the most common and popular "Bible" characters are known to me,
and subtle references to character traits exemplified there usually
leave me in the dark.



William Sburgfort Smith
Intel, SSD

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fielden@spot.Colorado.EDU (j.a. fielden)
Subject: Re: Thomas Hardy -- not for the young (was Books Recently Bought
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:48:44 GMT

In article <9208072002.AA15931@cfdev1.shearson.com> mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
>
>S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk (Steve Fagg) writes:
>
>> "Tess of the d`Urbervilles" Thomas Hardy - after being put off Hardy
>> at school by way of "The Trumpet Major" it's taken me a long time to
>> try again. I chose this one because I liked the film!
>
>I, too, was put off by Hardy in school, by way of TESS OF THE D'URBERVILLES.
>I do not attribute it to the book (so, please, Steve, continue), but rather
>to my own attitude.  I got to a sentence which took up an entire page,
>and stopped.  It took me another 20 years to get up the courage to read
>something by Hardy.  At age 37, I finally read FAR FROM THE MADDING CROWD,
>and thought it wonderful.
>
>
>I like the rest of Steve's list, as well.
>
>Mark
>

 I discovered Far From the Maddening Crowd in the 5th grade and loved it. I 
still have the Scholastic Books copy of it. I've never been able to get 
through Tess. Maybe I should give it another try, it's been a number of years.
isn't Return of the Native also by Hardy?  I had to read and read and read
it in my adv. placement english class in high school because the  
teacher said that whatever question they asked for the essay on the 
ap english test(for college credit) you could use the book to answer it.
She was right. I don't remember the question but I used Return of the Native
to answer it and placed out of freshman english.

Another book I've never been able to get through is The Mandarins 
by Simon Beauvior(sp?). I've had it since a freshman in high school 
and I've never made it past the first 200 pages.





Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Surrey, British Columbia, CANADA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 20:33:23 GMT

Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian):

>> I also worry about any attitude that says your race and sex are the most
>> important aspects of your personality . . . .

I don't think Terrence is saying that. I interpret his comments more along
the lines of "the most important thing people see about me is my skin colour
and that deeply impacts how I am able to move in the world".

I think that it is impossible for someone who is white and male
on this continent to understand fully what it like not to be (at least) one
of those things. When Crawford is introduced to someone, they cannot see
those things about him which contribute to his personal sense of having
grown up as a "minority within a minority". All they see is a white man.

A literary canon which promotes the notion that it is normative to be a
white man *does* alienate those who happen to be otherwise. And while
I cannot speak for Terrence or other dark-skinned persons, I imagine
that their response to reading the writings of black writers is grounded
in that alienation. I know that I have read works by women (specifically
Addrienne Rich and Tilly Olsen) which have given me a profound sense of 
homecoming, because here are writers who have written out of an experience
of the world which I share.

It is my belief that the writings of people outside the norm of a culture,
but living within the culture, can shed enormous light on the culture.
(As can the observations of a visitor from another culture, but that's
a different thread.)

In summary, although I like to think that my sex is not the most important
aspect of my personality, it has certainly had an impact on my experience
of the world, and hence on the development of my personality. 

Marcy

-- 

Marcy Thompson		
  SoftQuad (West)			
    marcy@sq.com
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14539 rec.humor:25933 talk.religion.misc:13923 sci.skeptic:14253
From: wsadjw@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Atheists: god REPLIES
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:05:12 GMT
Reply-To: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

In article <1992Aug13.100144.25102@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
#
#The toilet seats in heaven cost $1,000,000,000 each, each is carefully
#crafted over 1000 years by thousands of craftsmen out of pure diamond.

Rubbish. Everyone knows they are crafted by a little bird that arrives 
once in a thousand years to wipe its beak on a random spot of a diamond 
mountain.  When the mountain is worn down to the size of a toilet seat,
and then looks like a perfectly crafted toilet seat, it's finished.
Otherwise the process starts all over again with a new mountain and another
bird.

Exercise. Estimate the average production time of a toilet seat.
Assume the mountain to be the size of the Mount Everest.
Is this less or more than the evaporation time of a black hole 
with the mass of the universe?

JWN
(Yes I know about those thousands of machines, but I'm becoming
perfectly silly from grading all those math papers of students
who'll never learn the subject).



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.drugs
From: pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 16:00:58 GMT

In <uHTNPB1w164w@amigans.gen.nz> ed@amigans.gen.nz (Edward Kitto) writes:
>Dartanyan the Witchling writes:
>>    As long as we are on the subject -- What are the general
>>opinions expressed here regarding the use of recreational
>>pharmaceuticals, particularly psychedelics, and most notably
>>lysergic acid diethylamide, in ritual.  Are there any special
>>things that should be done during the practice of fifth-
>>circuit magick, or is the ritual setting in and of itself a good
>>enough setting and the ritual mindset a good enough set for use
>>in this way?
>>    If I am going to metaprogram myself, I do not want to leave
>>bugs.
>I would most earnestly advise you or anyone else not to use
>"recreational pharmaceuticals". If it isn't enough that they are
>illegal then you should realise that they are only available from
>black market sources. Which means that you have no idea what you
>are really getting. Dope dealers tend to 'pepper and salt' their
>concoctions with subtstances ranging from strychnine to animal
>tranquilizer - not to mention chemical isomers of LSD-25.

Perhaps you are misreading what the poster was asking.  "lysergic acid
diethylamide" *is* LSD-25.  It is important to realize that dealing with
the black market is dicey, but LSD in particular is hard to fake (in any
damaging way) if you buy the most common form, blotter paper.  The
dosage is so small that it is almost impossible to "lace" it with
anything that would be effective at such a small dosage.  Other forms
and other substances are indeed subject to your warnings, though.

>							These 
>chemical delights may have the unfortunate effect of exhausting
>various neurotransmitter receptor sites in your brain. Remember
>Christopher Lloyd's character in "Taxi"? It gets worse.

This has no basis in scientific studies that I've seen.  If you have
well researched and duplicated evidence to the contrary, I'd like to
see it.

>Sorry to sound so negative but what you are considering is
>extremely dangerous.

I don't think it's as dangerous as you claim.  (including the Satanic
stuff as well as the pharmaceuticals)
-- 
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
                            plant ice, harvest wind
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14932 alt.horror:3443
From: intruder@cats.ucsc.edu (Isaac Truder)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.horror
Subject: Re: The Dream of Unknown Kadath
Date: 21 Aug 1992 01:07:59 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


> I haven't read 'Dream Quest...', so what I'd like to know is - how,
> if at all, does it fit in with the [really] short story, "The
> Statement of Randolph Carter", which is at the end of one of the
> anthologies (At the Mountains of Madness And Other Stories, I think).
> Is it the same R. Carter? If so, which precedes which?

Randolph Cater is kind of HPL's alter ego in some of his stories.  I
think "Statement..." was the first, but it doesn't really have much to
do with the "Dream Quest...", except that it was based on one of HPL's
dreams/nightmares.  
C
Randolph Carter represents HPL's dream-self.  "Dream Quest...", "The
Silver Key", "Through the
Gates of the Silver Key" (and maybe some others?) all feature the 
character of Randolph Carter as an explorer through a nightmarish or
sometimes beautiful fantasy world of dreams.  There's not much mention
of Cthulhu Mythos type stuff in these... a "Nyarlathotep" here, a
"Necronimocon" there, but they really fall more into a different
category of HPL's "dream stories".
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14859 rec.humor:26450 talk.religion.misc:14226 sci.skeptic:14603
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: 19 Aug 92 07:23:00 GMT
 <sbuckley.714031443@sfu.ca> <Bt4t0A.M3J@revcan.rct.ca> <1992Aug19.025624.3108@hfsi.uucp>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1992Aug19.025624.3108@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata FSO) writes...
>If one takes the word "create" to mean producing something out of nothing,
>then human reproduction clearly does not fit in this category.  Admittedly
>that is a narrow usage of create, but I think it fits the meaning attributed
>to God when we say that he created the Universe.

I fail to see the moral relevance of ex nihilo creation versus creation
from preexisting materials.  If human beings were able to create intelligent
life ex nihilo, I still don't see any reason to think that enslaving or
killing that intelligent life would be morally permissible.

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:55:39 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Aug12.171211.15344@athena.cs.uga.edu> heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes:
>
>In an earlier post, I mentioned an article concerning the exclusion of
>black authors from a recently published Great Books collection.  I
>located the article and typed it in. It ran in Jet (a magazine) on
>November 19, 1991, and is posted here without permission.   The typos
>are mine, and are a result of fatigue.
>
>article follows:

It all seemed pretty reasonable to me up to this:

>  Ultimately, the
>world has to come to realize that the Western world didn't discover
>anything.  They just took it and made new use of it."

I guess Doris Saunders (who said this) (a) doesn't mind alienating
people who find some value in western culture and (b) doesn't know
very much what's been discovered since, say, the ancient Greeks,
and (c) doesn't realize that "the people who discovered mathematics
were African" does not mean that no one else has discovered any
mathematics.

Why is it that the case against a narrow selection of "great books"
so often involves this kind of excess?
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Timothy Mo's New Novel
Date: 17 Aug 92 05:17:02 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Timothy Mo is steadily building a reputation as a very fine writer indeed. I've
just finished his latest novel, The Redundancy of Courage, and I strongly
recommend it.

Mo's novel is about the Indonesian invasion of East Timor in the 1970s,
slightly fictionalized (Timor is "Danu," the Indonesians are never identified
by name). The narrator, Adolph Ng, is a gay Chinese, born in Timor but educated
in Macau and Toronto. He's swept up in the invasion and then in the guerilla
war of resistance, and lives to tell the tale.

When I started the novel I thought it was going to be too depressing to finish;
it's depressing, all right, but also suspenseful, funny and exciting. The
characters are vivid, complex and limited; Adolph is only one of a host of
memorable individuals.

I can also recommend Mo's earlier novels--Sour Sweet (also made into a fine
movie), The Monkey King, An Insular Possession (about the founding of Hong
Kong). He brings whole cultures and eras to life.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.re
From: mzabel@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Zabel)
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:14:20 GMT

In article <5983@pdxgate.UUCP> jprice@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (James Price) writes:
>
>   Agnostics are faithless; atheists have faith in no God.
>
>James

     Thanks Jim, but please stay out of alt.humor.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14689 talk.politics.misc:39894
From: JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.philosophy.misc,sci.classics
Subject: Re: I need a word
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:55:38 GMT
    <1992Aug11.152333.14632@husc3.harvard.edu> <5f4mxxp.tmaddox@netcom.com> 
    <1992Aug16.125522.14790@husc3.harvard.edu>
Organization: University of Kentucky

In article <1992Aug16.125522.14790@husc3.harvard.edu>
zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
 
>>>the vaguely Quinean, ontologically relativistic view of Tsvetan Todorov,
>>>under which all tropes may be subsumed under synecdoche, depending on the
>>                  "I swear I never heard the first shot"
 
     I always thought Synecdoche was a city in New York State
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Unspoken Words
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 13:26:45 GMT

Tom Maddox writes:

	Francis Muir writes:

		I believe Tom is confusing a thing and its caricature. It 
		is precisely my point that Orwell's school was not a "great 
		Public School" but one of the many rather dreadful wannabes. 
		The Public School system as it has evolved is truly an 
		affliction of horrifying proportions, but that says nothing 
		about the models.

	I did not cite Orwell; I wasn't even thinking of him.  Try John 
	le Carre', who *did* attend a "great" public school.  

Nor did I claim that Maddox did cite Orwell; I am quite careful in my 
attributions. Le Carre? Is he one whose opinions one should savour? Since
when was he much more than a story-teller? He has admitted himself that
Guinness' filmic performances contributed so much to the character of
Smiley that he, Le Carre, is now not able further to define him. The fact 
of the matter is that it is fashionable in some quarters in England to adopt 
an "I am just one of the People" stance. It is supposed to be helpful in
promoting book sales. All that Maddox has done by his "snob & shit" remark
is make it clear how little he understands the, to him, alien English
culture. This is not at all to his discredit but does somewhat illustrate
my point that cultural barriers are sufficiently significant within Western 
Civilization as to suggest that easy understanding of other civilizations
may not be possible. Multi-culturalism is a warm puppy.

	I believe Fido is confusing the ideal and the actual.

More likely a confluence than a confusion.

						Fido
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: nmiseroc@orlith.bates.edu (Nathan Miserocchi)
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Organization: Bates College, Lewiston, Maine
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:39:18 GMT


OK I'VE F**CKING HAD IT!!!!!!!  flame gun set to                                long range dip shit posting on this damn topic
for the last week and a half melt down-overload-
blow-you-through-the-roof-at-the-same-time-your-
arse-is-melting-to-the-center-of-the-FingEARTH!
CAN YOU PLEASE REDIRECT THIS JUNK TO A NEWS GROUP
THAT CARES.  YOU CAN PUT ISAAC THERE TOO!!!!!!!!
IF YOUR GOING TO DO A FOLLOW UP
TAKE OUT REC.HUMOR IN THE NEWSGROUP LINE!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you boring, snivelling, posting-to-the-wrong-
place-morons.(yes this is going to ALL the newsgroups
where this unfortunate article came from)
Go AHEAD FLAME me, it would be more interesting than
this.

ps: there is no god, you are you own god, your own universe,
humans are uncapable of understanding each other enough
to possibly have 1,10,50 gods and if everyone DID, then
they would only be conforming to the opinions and thoughts
of others which, in turn, can only be a misunderstanding
of verying degrees! (there, got my 5 cents in too! Don't flame
me about this part, you MADE me do it,  2 weeks is all I can handle
of this.

TIME TO GET A KILL FILE (yes, I wouldn't have to read my
article either if I had one!)


*****************************************************************

nmiseroc@orlith.bates.edu                  

-A .sig is a true sign of computer nerdiness, thats why this is a
fake.

-Damn, I wish I had one though.
*****************************************************************
-- 
********************************************************************************
nmiseroc@orlith.bates.edu
                               Bates College
                               Lewiston, ME
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books