From: rja@batcomfs.Eng.Sun.COM (rja@sun.com)
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles
Subject: Re: My bike got vandalized last night
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:11:04 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs

In article <Aug.25.12.47.55.1992.166@remus.rutgers.edu> kretz@remus.rutgers.edu (Kevin Kretz) writes:
>In article <6015@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>, ranck@joesbar.cc.vt.edu (Wm. L. Ranck) writes:
>> kretz@remus.rutgers.edu (Kevin Kretz) writes:
>> : 
>> : leaving.  He gets into it with someone else outside, and as an
>> : expression of rage, pushes my motorcycle over.  He did not know it was

	Baseball bat-Fu seems to be what's needed here.
>> : 
>> : 	Anyone know the legal liability of the bar?  How do I pursue
>> : reimbursement if the bar is liable?  It's New Jersey.
>> :  
>>    This is the kind of logic that really bugs me.  Why the *hell* should
>> the bar be liable?
>
>Because they let the guy get drunk, they let him go outside when he
>was obviously agitated, with other agitated people, and because any
>place of business is responsible for security in their parking area.

    Bars are notorious for being dangerous, rotten places to
    hang around.  I know, I've hung around more than a few.
    The best way to avoid hassles with drunken assholes, is to
    avoid them, or at least the places where they become DRUNKEN
    assholes.
>
>>  They didn't push your bike over.  They didn't do anything
>> to encourage the drunk to push it over.
>
>Pouring tequila into an idiot seemed to be encouraging.
>NJ has very strict bar liability laws.  I know, I've bartended here
>for 5 years, and I managed a bar for about a year.   

    Ahh, New Jersey, land of facism.  Where paintball guns were
    declared to be equivalent (in terms of penalty for possession)
    to mortars and hand grenades.
>
>>    Of course in this country where everybody wants someone else to pay for
>> their mistakes and/or bad luck some court may give you a judgement, but 
>> that doesn't make it right.
>
>It's not _my_ mistake, and a lack of security is certainly not bad luck.

    If you don't want to risk running into drunken dipshits, don't
    go to bars.  I know it's a pain to have to modify YOUR lifestyle
    because someone else is being a dick, but it's the only way.
>
>
>>  The *drunk* owes you for the repairs, not the
>> bar.
>
>I think the drunk owes me first, but that the bar was partially to
>blame. That is why I filed the complaint.  Since the guy had no ID,
>I think my chances are slim of seeing him in court.  Obviously, if the
>guy pays me, I'd be happier.  I don't see that happening, and I'm not
>getting stuck for the couple hundred bucks it's going to cost me.

    Then stop riding your bike to bars.  It's dangerous to ride after
    drinking anyhow.

>	Please understand: I think everyone sues everyone too much and
>that accident lawyers should be strung up.  However, I'm following the
>letter of a law which, I think, has some stupid provisions.  For
>example, say this guy does show up.  Let's say he's found guilty of
>criminal mischief and is ordered to pay for my damages.  

    Stop trying to hide behind the law.  You're pissed because some
    dick messed up your bike, and you can't get any money back from
    him.  Period.

>	If he proves he was drinking in the bar before it happened,
>not only will the bar have to pay him for the damages he incurred to
>me, they can be (theoretically) ordered to pay him more because he got
>in trouble.  Then they would also be fined by the state ABC.
>
>	But it's not only bars.  If someone bashed into your car at
>ShopRite (or wherever you buy food) and left, doing considerable
>damage, would you say "Oh, well, it's bad luck, it's not the
>supermarket's fault so I won't say anything?"  I doubt it.  If this guy
>disappears, it's the same thing.

    Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'd say.  Geez, stay in New Jersey guy.
    The last thing we sue-happy California types need is to get bad
    ideas from New Jerseyites.
>
>	If you offer goods or a service for profit, you are inviting
>the public to park on your property, and you are liable for their
>safety and the safety of their property.  This may be abused
>sometimes, by people saying damage occurred somewhere it didn't to
>collect money for their own mistakes, but it's a sound principle when
>honestly applied (like here).

    Not!
--
Robert Allen, rja@sun.com		DISCLAIMER: I said it, not my company.

		    Samuel Addams: Brewer, Patriot.