HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: martin@dvorak.amd.com (Martin Schuessler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Handloading startup info
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:21:46 GMT
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

To: The best place for a feminist is in another person's lab. -- James D. Watson, _The_Double_Helix_
Subject: Re: Handloading startup info
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Cc: 
Bcc: 

You're in exactly the same spot I was in a few years ago. What you need is:

1) A press. Probably single stage since you're talking low volume. These can
   run you anywhere from $20 up to about $100 depending on strength. You're
   budget will dictate this.
2) Brass. Runs about $14 for 100 cartridges.
3) Powder. WInchester 296 or Hercules Unique is good. I use Unique, but it's
   a fairly "dirty" powder.
4) Bullets. Usually ~ $20 for 500 cast bullets. Make sure the bullets are
   hard cast rather than swaged. Swaged bullets are too soft to use in a 
   magnum and will foul your barrel horribly.
5) Reloading dies. I recommend Lee dies, as they are carbide (no case lube
   needed), and come with the shell holder. They're good quality dies and
   will cost about $30 for a set of three.
6) A powder scale to measure powder charge. Anywhere from $25 to $300 for an
   electronic one (buy cheap).
7) Primers. I use Winchester primers and they've been very consistent. Not
   a single misfire.

That's about it. The process is fairly simple:
* Set up the resizing die in the press and pop in the shell holder.
* Run the brass case through the die. This will resize the brass and pop out
  the primer.
* Put in the neck expander die and run the cases through it. This will flare
  out the case mouth slightly so you can seat the bullet.
* Seat a new primer. You'll need a priming tool for this if your press doesn't
  have a priming arm.
* Measure anf fill the case with powder.
* Seat the bullet using the bullet seting die. It'll push the bullet to your
  selected depth and crimp the brass around the bullet.

Voila. One thing that you'll want to get even for small volume reloading is
a powder measure. Weighing each charge takes forever, even when doing only
50 bullets. Once you set the charge on a powder measure, all you do is pull
the lever to drop the same charge every time (weigh after every 10 to make
sure you're still dropping the same charge). Lee makes some neat little
powder measures that screw into the neck expanding die when you push the
cartridge up into it - you'll have to seat the primer first, of course.
You may also want to get a caliper to measure your cartridge dimensions.

I almost forgot one thing - you'll need a reloading manual of course.
Lyman makes a very good manual that has probably all the info you'll need.

Midway is a mail-order company which has very good prices on reloading 
equipment. Their number is 1-800-243-3220. Call to get a free catalog.

Lee is selling a progressive reloader, the Pro 100 for $112 complete for
one caliber !! That is indeed a very good price. You can load all pistol
calibers, but the only rifle cartridges you'll be able to do is .223 and
the 7.62x39 russian.

Good luck !

Martin
From: C96@VM.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Alexander EICHENER)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: INFO about 5.6x35 R Vierling loads - at last !
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:09 GMT

Well... maybe someone could use this. I wrote it up for a private email,
but thought I might share it as well.

Please *DO* read the warnings. They are important for American readers
who might flirt with resurrecting their .22 WCF...

                    RELOADING THE 5,6 x 35 R Vierling
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WARNING/DISCLAIMER:
As usual with reloading data - I have neither tried them nor have I even
checked plausibility of the data given. So, look out for any strange
numbers and begin safely below the actual loading level.

Special warning: DO NOT USE these data for a .22 WCF gun. Even if the
latter was made for nitro powder, the German 5,6 x 35 R Vierling
loadings are *much* stronger than some old .22 WCF levels. Don't even
try them there.

Okay: first, the - hopefully exact - cartridge data:

Bullet diameter:             5.63 mm (.222 ") Attention! This is smaller than
Case length overall:        35.5 mm (1.397 ") most .22 CF bullets available!!
Case length to second step: 25.0 mm  (.984 ")
Case length to first step:  20.0 mm  (.787 ")
Mouth diameter outside:      6.33 mm (.249 ")
Diameter at second step:     6.35 mm (.250 ")
Diameter at first step:      7.05 mm (.277 ")
Bottom diameter:             8.85 mm (.348 ")
Rim thickness:               1.4 mm  (.055 ") Attention here!

To form cases, you can take a .22 Hornet case as a base. Proceedings:
1. Turn original rim thickness down on a lathe, to 1.4 mm. Work on the
   chamber side, not on the bottom side (obvious, still said, though).
2. Calibrate case in die on the whole length.
3. If necessary, trim to exact length.

Loading data from the DEVA (all responsability declined):

Primer    Bullet, Weight in grams/grains   Powder, Weight          Vo in m/sec
RWS 4033  TF Hornady .222 Jet  2.6 = 40   Kemira N 110 Kemira  0.58=9.0   720
RWS 4033         "                 "      Rottweil .30 Carbine 0.65=10.0  775
CCI-400          "                 "      Dupont IMR 4227      0.58=9.0   720
CCI-400          "                 "      Hogden H 110         0.65=10.0  750

Oh yes; the CIP data are:

Maximum pressure 2400 bar
Rifling diameter: 5.58 mm    Field diameter: 5.35 mm
Maximal headspace: 0.15 mm
Twist length: 360 mm

Best regards; have fun and play safe!
Alexander Eichener <c96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
From: fox@shab08.larc.nasa.gov (Mike Fox)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Information on a German WW II shotgun
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:21:41 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA


I would like to thank those that responded to my original request for
information.  I would appreciate any written or personal references
that I may use that would allow my father to set a proper asking price 
for the vintage shotgun.  Thanks again and I have included my original 
post for those that may have missed it the first time.

******************************************************************


  I need information on a shotgun that my father brought back from
 Germany after World War II.  He is interested in selling the gun,
 but does not know its value.  Any help that you provide will be 
 greatly appreciated.  I have listed some of the features and 
 markings found on the gun below:


   o German 16-gauge side-by-side double barrell shotgun

   o Two triggers

   o Left barrell is modified choke ? , right is definitely full choke

   o 43 inches overall length, 26.75-inch barrell length

   o Some designs near breech

   o Other markings:

     - on barrell underneath forestock:

      left barrell:                             5757
      (design of crossed swords with + signs)   STETIENNE 17.0

      right barrell:                            B * P
       G (same design as other barrell)         STETIENNE 17.0

    - under breech:

      (different design)   VERNEY-CARRON
            PT                     AJIER DIAMANI

    - side:

        STETIENNE (more ornate)

    -  under safety switch:

        SUR



  The gun is in pretty good shape.  Thanks for any information that you
  can provide.


  Mike Fox 
Xref: sparky rec.guns:19324 talk.politics.guns:26398
From: David.Bernard@Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: SKS vs. Ruger 10/22
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:19:04 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Sun Microsystems

Seth Adam Eliot writes:

#I guess the disadvantages would be the smaller caliber (I don't think
#the paper targets and cans will mind), and the old Ruger's politics
#issue.
#>
#Any thoughts on the Ruger, or any other gun that might be suitable?
#
#(yes, responses regarding Rugers politics ARE acceptable, IF phrased in
#a civil manner)

For what it's worth, there is some thought re SKS politics also... ie, 
purchasing the products of, and so supporting, a repressive goverment, 
produced by slave-y labor.  Detailed discussion,of course, to t.p.g.

	Dave
From: ole@delab.sintef.no (Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: NEW Soviet Armor and Helmet for sale.
Date: 4 Jan 93 13:32:16 GMT
Organization: SINTEF DELAB, Trondheim, Norway.

Wasnt't the border guards under control of the KGB as well?
From: towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Walther P-38 9mm
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:55:42 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <9301042308.AA14039@pluto>, heedah@tc.fluke.COM (Hide Iba) writes...

#I just purchased a used (but in very good condition) P-38.
#If anyone can help me get a owner's manual (in English) or some 
#other book showing detailed "knockdown/cleaning" instruction, I would
#appriciate the help very much.

#I'm also interested in getting some information on getting extra magazines
#(at a reasonable price) and nice grips.

 For an instruction manual, parts, grips, etc call or write to:

 Interarms 
 10 Prince St.
 Alexandria, VA 22313
 703-548-1400
From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming, RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:07:05 GMT

Jim Heath:
 >After our club meeting last night, one of our rifle shooters was asking
 >about progressives for reloading .308 and .30-06.  I would be interested
 >in recommendations for this, I thought the Lee Loadmaster or Dillon 650
 >(or 1050) could be adapted to feed cases and auto-indexed [2 of my
 >criterion ;-{)], but we couldn't come up with a way to automate trimming
 >his cases.  He said he had to do it every time (It sounded to me like he

I have been checking into progressives lately and called Dillon to ask about
the XL650.

It can be set up to do 30-06 and 308.  According to Dillons "Blue Press",
they have an automatic, electric case trimmer that mounts in the tool head
of a progressive press, complete with a vacuum source to get the chips.  It
was $150 the last time I looked.

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: hruo@ncrclm.clemsonsc.NCR.COM (Hiro Ruo)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: BENELLI M3 SUPER 90 - OPINION/EXPERIENCE
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:37 GMT
Organization: NCR E&M CLEMSON Liberty, SC


i am considering getting a Benelli M3 Super 90.  This is the Benelli Semi-auto
12 gauge that is switchable to pump.  I know the M1 Super 90 is considered a
GREAT shotgun, but i've heard recommendations from a Gunshop friend who
advised me not to go convertible.  He said that he suspects that like the
FRANCHI SPAS-12, the M3 Super 90 will have similar problems.  

Has anyone out there had experience with these type guns?  the Benelli in
particular?  

I would like to find out AS MUCH as possible before I plunk down $750.

thanks,

Hiro.Ruo@ClemsonSC.NCR.COM
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mmx19 powder choice?
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:15:06 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <m0n8bOq-0000NkC@ncoast.org> cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton) writes:
#As quoted from <00966026.7F85D760.21893@dymaxion.ns.ca> by rr@dymaxion.ns.ca (Rod Regier):
#
## I used 158g SWC lead bullets for my "extremely heavy" projectile
## experiment in 9mm.  The pressure signs with HS-6 were acceptable,
## but the mechanical problems with making it work are a BEAR.
## I was using a NATO-spec throated barrel, or else it would have
## been a totally lost cause.  Even then, the bullets have to be
## seated so deep that the case sides bulge.  Many of those
## cases had a large enough bulge that it was impossible
## to get them to chamber.
#
#Try a variety of case brands.  I've found this to be a function of manufacturer.
#Norinco cases are VERY susceptible to this.  Other brands less so.  In a Glock,
#the tighter chamber makes it very critical.
#

When I began on the quest to make a heavey metal nine, I was casting
my own and found that using a gascheck bullet (without the gascheck)
gave me a little leeway in the buldge at the back of the case.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shooting straight up
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:38 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <1993Jan6.164626.14780@news.eng.convex.com> tford@convex.com (Tom Ford) writes:
#I heard a local news report on New Years Day about people shooting off guns in
#town to celebrate the new year, not a smart thing to do.  I was wondering
#what are the ballistics like for a falling bullet after it has been shot
#at near 90 degrees elevation.


Terminal velocity for common bullets is in the neighborhood of 300 fps
(about 200 mph).  This is quite sufficient to kill someone - just
read the newspaper for places like Los Angeles on January 2.

Hatcher's Notebook has an interesting chapter on ammunition fired
vertically.  It's worth a read.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: salhany@vnet.ibm.com (Wayne Salhany)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Pyrodex and frequency of cleaning
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:31:29 GMT

I have a .50 cal Hawken rifle and have used Pyrodex in it for up to 25 shots
without the need to clean it. Thompson/Center specifies .490 diameter
balls and I use petroleum jelly as a lube on the patches. My accuracy
is very good with this combination.

Is this unusual? From the conversations in this forum, I am beginning to
think so...

Wayne Salhany
salhany@vnet.ibm.com
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Pistol
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:30 GMT


Frank Crary writes:
#I'm not sure: You certainly need a metal softer than steel, but brass
#_might_ be soft enough. If I remember the story correctly, this sort
#of machined brass bullet was tested by the Germans during the Second
#World War. It was very effective (penetrating the scrap armored car they
#used as a backstop) but far to expensive/difficult to produce for any
#realistic use.

Most interesting, but a bit hard to believe, as the standard German 9mm
pistol cartridge used a mild steel core and a mild steel jacket with just
a bit of lead. It would have been far simpler to harden the steel core,
producing a more effective round on existing equipment. 

They also played with sintered iron bullets, but the intent was to produce
an even cheaper ball bullet than the steel-core ball, rather than a
penetrating bullet.

The steel core in 9mm PmE is why you find that German WW2 pistol ammo is
on the BATF banned AP bullet list.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: jbm@scirocco.sbi.com (Jeff Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: ambi safety 45 acp
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:23:06 GMT

PETER KAUFMAN writes:
# I recently bought a Colt Gold Cup 45 and being a southpaw I am interested in pu
# tting an ambi safety on it.  Does anyone have any reccomendations of brands.
# This may be a carry gun so extended safetys may be out.

I've been happy with the Wilson I had installed on my Gold Cup.  It's
apparently a ripoff of the respected Armand Swenson design.  One thing
which needs to be noted is that there's a little metal `ear' which
goes under and is retained by the right-side grip panel; a little
space needs to have been carved out to accomodate this.  This was not
a problem for me, as I had Spegal grips, and Craig Spegal makes his
grips with this cutout as a matter of course.

-Jeff Moore (jbm@sbi.com)
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:55:36 GMT


Jim Del Vecchio writes:
#        A reliable, high mag capacity, .22 LR submachine gun would
#be quite a neat item, imo.   I wonder if there will ever be such a
#thing developed.


Where ya been, Jim? :)

There are at least 3 such weapons. Two efforts were made in the US, one
I think by American Arms, the other by Ilarco. Currently such a weapon
is made somewhere in what's left of Yugoslavia, and has been used in
combat there.

All the concepts look similar, a bit like a small Thompson SMG, with the
big difference being the use of a top mounted horizontal pan, or drum,
magazine, like the Lewis gun or the Degtyarev DP. Mag capacity is 177-180
rds, and firing rate well over 1000 rds/min.

Apparently very effective at close range.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: guns vs. K9s
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:22 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1993Jan5.080155.819@email.tuwien.ac.at> robert@cuba.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Robert Glock) writes:
#Maybe I'm wrong, but are you sure about this? I think that you would have
#to be a prime marksman (or extremely lucky) to hit a rabid dog at a vital
#spot immediately [using .22]. If you just wound the animal, it might still be
#able to attack you - with even more ferocity. Even with a 'large' gun it would
#be better to try to escape (not run!). 

This would probably be the best choice with a healthy animal, but a rabid
one is likely to attack regardless of provocation. Unless you can get
through and close a door, running from a rabid aminal would be quite
dangerous...

                                                    Frank Crary
                                                    CU Boulder
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: new Federal match .22 ammo, etc.
Date: 11 Jan 93 04:18:40 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University


  I've heard a lot of rumors about Federal's new .22 rimfire match
ammo.  The new GunWorld issue (Feb. 1993) has a nice article on
this "Gold Medal" ammo, about its design, manufacture and about
the U.S. shooters who won with it in the Olympics.

  I appreciate articles like this, and find a lot of solid info
in this popular magazine - it blends informative articles and
"dramatic" articles.  Other informative articles in this issue
include a survey of Remington's new product offerings (their new
541-T Heavy Barrel looks very promising) coverage of the AR-15 in
7.62x39mm, Ruger's new M77 Mark II in .416 Rigby and other
shotguns, rifles and handguns.

  I also enjoyed the discussion of the heavily customized
revolver which is shown on the cover.  This has both a red-dot
sight and a laser sight and so is suited to any light level.

  Columns include Grennell's Reload Clinic and Kopels Komment by
David Kopel which usually discusses the politics of firearms.  This
column is on "An Armed Populace" and gives an historical approach 
on the Constitution and the Federalists.  

  Even the ads are pretty good in terms of being informative.
The Oklahoma Ammunition Co. ad gives a listing of their Hansen
ammo with prices and the DBI multi-page ad is still the winter
special ad with no charge for shipping.

--henry schaffer
From: hu_tm@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Timothy M Hu)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: A while back..
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:09:44 GMT
Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA

I posted a question about owning an Ar-15 or clone in NJ and was told that it
was not legal. I was wondering if clones also included the .22 versions? 
Mitchell Arms makes .22 versions of the AR-15.
From: ben.sansing@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Ben Sansing)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fir
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:22:02 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


JDD>        A reliable, high mag capacity, .22 LR submachine gun would
JDD>be quite a neat item, imo.   I wonder if there will ever be such a
JDD>thing developed.

The American 180, which appeared in the 1970s, used (uses) a 177-rd.
drum magazine mounted atop the receiver like a mini-Lewis gun, and
delivers very high RPM with .22 lr ammo.


Then there's the Calico, with its weirdo magazine atop the receiver. The
9mm version is offered to LEOs in full-auto, don't know about the 100-rd
.22 version...
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Get surreal!
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: accuracy of .40s&w vs. 9mm
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:31:02 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:

#	I recently read an article comparing the P7M10 in .40 with the
#	9mm P7M8/13.
#	The author was very happy with the .40 version even if it was  
#	a bit heavy.

	Aren't they always?  8-)
I saw an article and thought "whatta stupid gun!"  The promotion I saw
was in the Nov 92 Hand Gunning.   The thing weighs 43 oz empty: 4 oz more
than a 1911A1, & 20 oz more than a Glock.   Not too impressive for 
something designed to be a "compact".  For some reason, the vels
seemed pretty low also, maybe the gas delayed blowback?  Either that
or the "factory vel ratings" for .40 are unrealistically high:

Fed 180 gr JHP	908 fps		155 gr JHP	1079 fps
Win 180 gr JHP	901		155 gr ST-JHP	1117
Hor 180 gr JHP	918		155 gr JHP	1113 

median ~320 f-lbs		median ~425 f-lbs

	Ingenius: with the mere addition of 10 oz of weight to the
slide, some extra bulk, and a loss of magazine capacity, they have 
come up with a gun capable of ballistics approaching the 9mm +P+. 8^)

	The looks are not too keen either: It kind of reminds me of a 
fancy version of those cast zinc Stallard Arms blowback .40s.  
For 1200 bucks you'd expect HK to sharpen it up a little.

#	I do have a friend who believes .45acp is more accurate than 9mm,

I think this is purely dependent on the care of the handloader,
and the skill of the shooter, and the quality of the gun.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Non-Resident permits in R.I & CT.
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:20:12 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1993Jan8.150608.18075@chpc.org>, rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
# Rhode Island requires that you apply in person, and also take a marskmanship
# test (which can be gien by any police or NRA instructor).  The permit will
# list the tester, and the caliber of the test weaponl, which is then the
# maximum you are allowed to carry.  And yes, they go by stated caliber :
# a .38 is considered a "bigger" caliber than a .357, and a .44 mag smaller than
# a .45 acp.  They can be sticky about "need", but it can be done.
# 
#                                         rob b.

Sounds like you should always qualify with a .45, just to make sure that
there is nothing you can't carry.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Major 9
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:16:06 GMT
Organization: Sun

In article <1993Jan5.130352.17919@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
#
#You know, I've always wondered *why* they developed the 9x21
#cartridge when the (virtually unused) 9mm Winchester Magnum
#already existed (I believe I've heard it is 9x22). I'm pretty
#sure 9mm Win. Mag. predates 9x21 by quite a bit.

Several european countries ban possession by civilians of any
"military caliber" firearms or ammunition.

You can't (easily?) get them here, but I understand that the
AR-15 (or Sporter?) can be found in .222 Remington, and that
a 9x21 pistol *isn't* an illegal 9x19.

Forget where I read that, though.





--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|