From: "A Page in the Life of ..." <veritas!apple!chaos.cs.brandeis.edu!adam>
Subject: RFD: rec.games.frp.cyber
To: cyberrpg@veritas.com
Reply-To: apple!chaos.cs.brandeis.edu!adam
Cc: apace@mta.ca
Organization: Expert Support Inc., Mountain View, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:57:59 GMT
Return-Path: <veritas!apple!chaos.cs.brandeis.edu!adam>

I apologise to those of you who are not interested in this, and that it
takes away from the whole discussion, I will try to put some interesting
tidbits in here as well as pointing out the problems.

I would have prefered that the individual who addressed this, addressed it
to me directly, so we could discuss it privately, but, so it goes.

      If you can telnet, you can get the newsgroups.(nyx, etc.)
      If not, well, you are in the minority anyways.

First of all, not all of us can afford the time and effort to support some
other telnet site with access to news, and such, and others of us are at
companies that don't allow access to the re random user.  Mail has been
ported to many different architectures, but not so news.

Some of us who are jacked in, have finite tolerance with such structurs
anyway, keeping so many updated records loose in ones' head is distracting,
especially when the thrill is there, and there are so many other details
... 

Second of all, the bulk of the network are at least one hop away from a
direct backbone (including things like compu$erve and fidonet and plain
uucp sites)  Third of all Josh (the guy who ran the mailing list) put in
into news because there were so many interested parties.

And that way anyone who was interested in CYBERspace could find a place to
chew the cud, a real meeting of minds, as it were ... 

      And there's no guarantee that the moderator won't die again.

Some of us live in a deterministic universe ...
Or are you going to send an ICE out after it?

      If something isn't done, rec.games.cyber is going to die anyways.  

If you believe so, go elsewhere, there is plenty of traffic here to prove
you wrong ...
So feal free to Jack off, while the rest of us ride the flow.

   >   2) move rec.games.cyber to rec.games.frp.cyber
   >
   >I have said before (apparently not loud enough) the discussions here are
   >_*NOT*_ fantasy!  They are about a SCIENCE FICTION role playing game.
   >
   >Let's go over that again.  Not a fantasy role playing [game] but
   >                                 ^       ^    ^
   >a Science Fiction (based on hard science and the future of this world
   >today, not some author's stroke fantasy of what that author had mangled the
   >laws of science to allow for his particular deviations) role playing game.
   >

Ok, kids, lets talk about primary reading skills, never mind, since most of
us get the input direct to our senses, why bother learning that outdated
symbology ...

       Right, science fiction is not fantasy, it all exists in the real world, 
   and it's not role-playing, we all do this in the real world. Right.

Correct, Science Fiction is a real world based idea, grown out of the world
we live in.  There is historical Science Fiction that is grown from the
concept that the branch was in the past somewhere.  The proposition behind
Science Fiction is that it is a single modification based on science from
the world (or a probable future of the world) that we live in.  Fantasy is
not.  Science Fiction's premise _is_ the real world.   Role Playing is
something else that we do in the real world.  We also role play in SF
worlds, F worlds, and various other places in our heads ...  WHat's your
point? 

       I have two suggestions for you.
	   1)  Check out your dictionary for the definition of fantasy.

I have.  I have also checked something much more relevant.  Fantasy (and
Science Fiction, and even plain Fiction) author's opinions and conventions.
I have even (stooped so low as) to check with editors.  If you are a
conciencious gamer, you might want to call some of your favorite authors
up, and tell them that you liked their worlds so much, you want to include
them in your games.  You make good friends that way ... 

	   2)  Check out the charter for the rec.games.frp groups. It is very 	
	       clear that the rec.games.frp.misc groups are meant for _all_
	       role-playing games, not just the ones set in some way off 
	       never-never land a long, long time ago.

No, but they are for FANTASY ROLE PLAYING GAMES ... as anyone can tell by
the name.  If they were for all role playing games, it would be called
rec.games.rp.foo instead.  Card games don't belong there, and staged
fantasy shows don't belong there either ...but since you can't tell the
difference ...

       And of course, all cyberpunk is just oh so realistic.  I can just see the
   nanotech hopping along by 2020, can't you?

Actually if you were up on your biology, and your nanotech developements, I
would probably be in deap conversation with you over some of the recent
developements, but since I can see that you are being sarcastic, I won't
bother.  If anyone else is still reading this and has an abiding interest
in the future, talk to me, or join 21-c or something ...

And besides, I said some Science Based changes hypothisized in the world.
Just in case you couldn't read it above, I stated it again.

   >If someone was going to establish some rec.games.SFrp.cyber along with
   >(say) rec.games.sfrp.starfleet-battles or rec.games.sfrp.eurorails or some
	  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	   This is a role-playing game?

Talking of definitions, my friend, are you not playing a role?  Do you not
take on the role of command for these situations?  Is everything
predetermined, or controled by dice and cards?  Or do you have volition in
your moves?  To answer your question.  Yes it can be considered a role
playing game.  A limited one, but still, a role-playing game.  But it still
proves my point that rec.games.cyber is fine where it is ...

Besides, there have been several starfleetbattles played out on IRC
recently ... but since I am obviously a network imbicile, I would have no
clue ...

Talking of role-playing, have you ever played with regressive role playing?
Your character is role palying in their own world (and maybe that character
is role-paying as well ...) you do that to a limited extent as a decker ...
if you are good, that is.

   >such (there are precous few actually marketed science fiction games which
   >is one of the reasons that I fight so hard sometimes ...) then maybe I
   >would go for it.  But seeing that there doesn't seem to be that many games
   >that would fall under that category, I don't see why it should be created.

   OK, let's try this out.

Sure ... 

   Science-fiction role-playing games list.

   Traveller
   Traveller 2300
   Megatraveller

Interesting pov, but I would not consider the magic aspect and the psy
aspect a function of science, would you?

   GURPS * (This is actually several, but I don't have the energy to compile
   all of them)

The only one that I can come up with that is actually science fiction is
gurps cyberpunk, and we discuss that already here ...

   Cyberpunk 2020

This game fits here too. 8-)

   Paranoia

Possibly, but also a dark future and has been discussed here to a limited
extent if my memory serves proerly.

   CyberHero (and others I'm sure)
   Robotech
   Battlelords
   CyberSpace

Strictly from the names of these, they sound like they belong in this
maling list.  If played.  I never have.  Anyone wnat to tell me about them?
(adam@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)

   ShadowRun
   Gamma World

You run into any Trolls or Elves in your town Lately?

   Space Opera

Ok, hotshot, try out your fireball spell (oh, they call it something
different here, never mind ...)

   Timelord
   Timelords
   Star Frontiers

Now these are legitimate to some extent (depending on your tolerance) from
what I have heard, Not having played them.


   Torg (Occasionally)
   Space Master
   Rifts
   Mechwarrior

Never played, anyone have any info?  Mail me personally
(adam@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu) 

   And many more, but I have lost patience with this little exercise.
   This is hardly "precious few" science fiction games.

Three definites that are not already discussed, two of which sound like the
same game, by title ... and a few I have never heard of.  You also forgot a
few, like Battletek for example.  The only non cyber SF games that I have
found listed are the far future ones (and the time ones, which is the same
thing, in a way)  This is a precious few.  And if you couldn't think of
others, why did you beg off with a flimsy excuse (plenty of time, this is
asyncronous, you know ...)

Or are you one of those "in minorities" that only have a line editor for
your mail?

Never mind.  Those last lines were probably wasted on the ether anyway.
caviat, I am not running down Fantasy games, They just aren't Science
Fiction.  Calling a sheep a decker, doesn't make him one ...
--
"Nature abhors a virgin -- a frozen asset"  --claire booth luce
--
Internaut at large.
Oct 28 1992 -- "Where was the Kaboom?  There was supposed to be an
                earth-shattering Kaboom!"
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire