HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Unorthodox treatments are *not* the problem  (was: ... name right!)
Date: 25 Aug 1992 15:23:30 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

-*----
I wrote:
>> The problem is not discussing non-orthodox treatments, but with
>> those who either don't know what science is or who don't like
>> science, and who want their views treated as science.  ...

In article <1992Aug24.211106.6972@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:
> No, the problem is exactly with discussing non-orthodox treatments. Many
> contributors on this forum are quick to label anything non-orthodox as 
> quackery, regardless of its merits, or its scientific foundations. ...

We must be reading different newsgroups.  Did you not see the
posts about angry livers? 

I cannot remember, in this newsgroup, *any* post being labelled
as quackery *because* it discussed non-orthodox treatment.  What
gets posts labelled as quackery is the silly theories that are
used to discuss the non-orthodox treatments.  This distinction
is crucial.  Consider the two example posts, below. 

Example post A: 

   I have noticed that in both the ancient Chinese and Indian
   traditions, the herb X is used to treat digestive disorders and
   hepatitus.  Does anyone know of any substance in this herb that
   might be useful?  Has this herb been investigated beyond these
   ancient traditions?

Example post B:

   The herb X calms the liver when it is angry, and invigorates 
   the spleen, which is crucial to digestion.

Note that both posts discuss the same treatment.  The first would
raise no eyebrows.  The second is, in the light of scientific
knowledge, a bunch of hooey, and those in this newsgroup who know
better rightly point this out. 

Russell
Xref: sparky sci.med:16549 rec.sport.triathlon:1101
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med,rec.sport.triathlon
Subject: Re: Effect of glycerin taken internally?
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:21:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug28.202121.18317
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Aug28.183752.5680@walter.bellcore.com> kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner) writes:
>In response to my query in rec.sport.triathlon, I asked if there is
>any way for me to reduce the (copious) amount of sweat I produce during
>exercise, since I cannot come near replacing the lost water during the
>exercise.  Someone posted about research done using glycerol prior to
>exercise, in order to maintain blood volume to help cool, ease heart
>effort, and help fuel muscles.  The research indicated using 1ml glycerol
>per kg body weight in a 20% solution twice prior to exercise.
>
>Well, I thought I'd try it.  Upon finding glycerin at the local pharmacy,
>I note that the bottle (which says "U.S.P." and "Pure") indicates "For
>External Use Only"!
>
>My questions are
>
>1) What is the difference between glycerin marked "for external use only"
>andd glycerin to be taken internally, and can either be taken safely at
>the desired quantities (~75ml)?

My "gut" suspicion is that when it comes to Glycerin, USP, the label
"for external use only" points to its intended OTC use as a topical
emollient; that is, a cosmetic.  Glycerin to be taken internally is
either a food additive, and not available through consumer outlets,
or a drug (see below.)  I think that the USP label is probably sufficient
to be assured of its purity, although it's conceivable that food-grade
glycerin is different.  (I doubt it.)

>2) What effects does glycerin have on the body that I should be aware of?

A concentrated solution of glycerin is frequently used as an osmotic
diuretic to lower intraocular pressure before eye surgery.  I don't
remember what its concentration is--I think it's > 20%.

I'd be worried about needing to piss during your exercise, at least.
Glyceril (glycerol) is an FDA food additive "Generally Recognized As
Safe -- GRAS".  However, that's at levels a lot lower than what you're
describing.  Glycerol is a normal component of fat metabolism, and
I don't think animal studies point to any unusual high-dose toxicity.
On the other hand, it would be prudent to know if there's been any
widespread experience with healthy individuals dosing themselves
chronically with large amounts of the substance.  We probably _think_
it's safe, but who knows?

I really have no comment (other than a mild skepticism) about your
intention to use this during exercise.  I'd imagine that its diuretic
effects would tend to _reduce_ blood volume.  I just don't know.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: sci.med,rec.sport.triathlon
From: georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark)
Subject: Re: Effect of glycerin taken internally?
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 00:01:33 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

Here's some info I have on glycerol and athletic performance. It was
published this year by two sports-medicine physicians:

"Studies at the University of Mexico showed that athletes who took
glycerol and extra water before they exercised started to sweat
earlier and produced more sweat than they usually do. This had a
greater cooling effect and lowered their body temperatures, enabling
them to exercise longer."

"A dose of 70 grams is safe and relatively inexpensive."

The role of taking glycerol with water prior to competition, is to
help your body retain water, so you can sweat more during the
competition. Otherwise, excess water drank prior to competition
might instead cause you to urinate more. Sweating improves athletic
endurance. Urinating does not.

(Drinking a water solution of table sugar is also better than
drinking plain water. During competition, the sugar delays the
onset of "bonking.")
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: KY Laws R.E. Nutrition Withdrawl
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:08:46 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <1992Aug24.204644.18947@ms.uky.edu> jrt@omega.kcr.uky.edu (J. Randall Thompson) writes:

>Kentucky Health Care Surrogate Act which allows the withdrawl of
>food or water for an individual at the request of a surrogate
>decision maker. However, specific HSOPITAL regulations could vary
>from the state statute.

But they could not contravene them.  Sounds like the nursing home
was feeding them the line they thought would result in agreeing
to the tube.  This is not atypical.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bill.Walton@f413.n711.z3.fidonet.org (Bill Walton)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Hyperacidity-Urgent help
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:36:30 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 3:711/413

ST>From: talmy@randvax.rand.org (Shel Talmy)
ST>Date: 14 Aug 92 19:16:26 GMT
ST>Organization: RAND Corp., Santa Monica, Ca.
ST>Message-ID: <3716@randvax.rand.org>
ST>Newsgroups: sci.med
ST>1. Is the history described above, par for the course, and if so,
ST>how long do these episodes last.
 This is not par for the course
ST>2. Is there anything further he should do.
 Yes he should see a physician PRONTO
ST>3. Should he see a specialist.
 This is a good idea. He may need to see a cardiologist
ST>He is very distressed at what is going on, and I'm distressed for
ST>him.  All advice will be gratefully received.
 You have every right to be
BW


 

--  
Internet: Bill.Walton@f413.n711.z3.fidonet.org
From: bhjelle@carina.unm.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Low BP/exercise following blood donation
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:28:59 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Aug25.151423.2575@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> banchy@aplcen (Banchy thomas g (410) 461-2216) writes:
>Hope this isn't a FAQ...
>
>I donated blood last night for the second time, hoping for a better time
>than the first time, but as before, I experienced a number of near-
>blackouts during the next 12 hrs or so.  I had hoped that mild hyper-
>ventilation would help, and it did for about the first hour.  

Whoa! Who told you to hyperventilate? Not only won't that help, it
may well be the major reason you are having this problem.
>
>I'm wondering if my physical condition could be the source of the problem.
>I'm pretty thin (6'2", 160 lbs) with low resting pulse/BP (48 bpm, 100/60).
>So I've got a couple of questions:

I presume your low resting pulse is a reflection of your good physical
condition and not some pathologic process (true?).

> - can I expect every donation to be similarly "fun"

Certainly as long as you follow by hyperventilating. Otherwise,
who knows?

> - should I try to move around a lot to keep my pulse/BP up afterwards

Your best bet would be to take it easy for the next 24-48 hours, eat,
and drink a lot of fluids. Avoid standing up suddenly after sitting
or lying down.

> - how soon can I exercise (~5 mi run)

Given your history, I would suggest 48 hours without any exercise
of that intensity.

> - should I continue to donate at all

The appropriateness of further donations is dependent upon
your own altruism.

Brian
Newsgroups: sci.med,connect.audit
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Hernia Surgery via laparoscopy?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 04:37:14 GMT

In <7#bn6kj.shoup@netcom.com> shoup@netcom.com (Richard Shoup) writes:

>Sounds like you may have had a more serious defect than I did.  How
>was '6 years' determined?  I'm 49 and noticed it several months ago,
>but it may have been small for some years.

	A bioposy was done of the tissue removed, I know.  The actual
wording is "greater than six years," and the surgeon remarked that I looked
like Frankenstein's face inside.  He suspected I had an undescended
testicle as a child, and once it descended and pierced the sac the weak
spot would scar over, break, scar over, and the like.  Apparently he
spent at least an hour just unwrapping scar tissue from tendons, muscles,
and the abdominal sac.  As a matter of fact, I did have an indescended
testicle for some while as an infant, so I figure he's probably right in
this case.  I have no reason to suspect the other side is over a year old,
as the surgeon specifically checked for tears as another doctor pronounced
me "blown out on both sides" while I was on my vacation, and hence he
thought it best to look while already inside.  No damage was noticed.  If
this is the case, the laparoscopy sounds like the better bet.

>  My impression is that
>the general anaesthetic makes a big difference in your recovery.

	I've heard similar anecdotes regarding the pulling of wisdom teeth,
with people having it done under a local healing faster than those under
general.  Is there some medical reason why the body would not heal as fast
after general anaesthesia?  I'm planning on having wisdom teeth removed at
some point in the next year or so if they don't quit moving and putting
pressure on my present teeth, and I figure an hour in the chair and awake
is worth a couple of days in faster recovery.  Opinions?

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >

Newsgroups: sci.med
From: klinger@saturn.sdsu.edu (Andrew Klinger)
Subject: autonomic effect of illness
Originator: klinger@saturn.sdsu.edu
Organization: San Diego State University, Math Dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 20:56:39 GMT


Newsgroups: sci.med
From: banchy@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Banchy thomas g (410) 461-2216)
Subject: Re: Low BP/exercise following blood donation
Reply-To: banchy@aplcen (Banchy thomas g (410) 461-2216)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 19:24:14 GMT

In article <5yan2qr@lynx.unm.edu> bhjelle@carina.unm.edu () writes:
>Whoa! Who told you to hyperventilate? Not only won't that help, it
>may well be the major reason you are having this problem.

Whoa -- down boy!  Apologies for not cloaking that in more flame-
retardant material.  Let me rephrase:  I found after my first donation
that a couple of minutes of paying attention to my breathing helped
me regain equilibrium, if necessary.  Just forget all about the nasty
h-word.

Tom
-- 
=============================================================================
 Tom Banchy       banchy@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu      banchy@tron.bwi.wec.com
 "babble, burble, banter, bicker...bicker...bicker"  -King Crimson
=============================================================================
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Smart Drugs
Date: 26 Aug 92 19:55:27 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <1992Aug25.005135.12844@seas.gwu.edu> sheryl@seas.gwu.edu (Sheryl Coppenger) writes:
>
>The question might be asked, though, when do doctors test and when
>do doctors treat?  What kind of neurological symptoms, for instance?

Weakness, numbness, paresthesias, dementia, spasticity.

>Does B12 anemia look like iron-deficient anemia in the kinds of test
>for anemia that they would give at a blood bank, say?
>
No.  Iron deficiency is a microcytic anemia, and B12 is macrocytic.
There are other cell changes such as hypersegmented neutrophils.

>Also, if the normal range is 200-800 (I forget the units of the test), does 
>that mean that it's valid for a doctor to see a reading of 201 and say 
>"you're normal" or 199 and say "you need shots"?

No.  With both readings the doctor should say "you
need a Schilling test."  THe Schilling test shows they either absorb
B12 from the gut or not.

>Gordon mentioned placebo tests in terms of pills.  But of course that
>doesn't mean much when applied to B12 deficiency.  Has anyone actually
>done a placebo test on B12 shots, say, on people who are in the low 
>"normal range" on B12 tests?  Or are you just spreading "old doctors'
>tales"? :-)
>
You should never just base a diagnosis on the serum tests.  If it
is questionable, do the Schilling.

>I'm not for giving "B12 shots all around", but it seems to me unlikely that
>there is some kind of binary "pernicious anemia"/"no pernicious anemia"
>switch in people or that everyone is going to be at their best at the
>same level.
>
Actually, there pretty much is a binary pernicious anemia.  You either
make the intrinsic factor in your stomach and absorb far more B12
than you ever can use, or you don't, and absorb practically none.
By the time you've developed symptoms, your stomach disease is
usually so advanced that it isn't making any intrinsic factor.
It takes about 3 years to use up the average person's B12 stored
in their body.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robin.Salmansohn@f715.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Robin Salmansohn)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Hepatitis A,B,C,Delta,Non-A, Non-B
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:36:08 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:273/715 - Alternative Lifesty, Wyndmoor PA

O.K.. Will a professional please tell me if "Non-A, Non-B Hepatitis
is different than or is another word for Hepatits C, Hepatitis Delta?
What are we dealing with? Would someone break this down on a chart?
(Please cite the pathogen, transmission route(s), alternate name if there is 
one, test, etiology, Tx or phase of Tx). I know about A, and
B, and for that matter iatrogenic hep). But it would be of great service (my 
opinion) if someone created a chart of the types of Hep,
and what we have to potentially deal with. Thank you in advance.


 

--  
Internet: Robin.Salmansohn@f715.n273.z1.fidonet.org
From: doyle+@pitt.edu (Howard R Doyle)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Doctor's hours
Date: 30 Aug 92 12:19:38 GMT
Organization: Pittsburgh Transplant Institute


>>Yes. It will probably turn her into a doctor.
>>
>
>  Very cute and cavalier response. But you are right, there will probably
>be no long lasting effects on her other than progress towards her professional
>credentials.
>
>Flame On
>
>  The important and serious question is what being examined and treated by
>people suffering from potentially extreme fatigue is doing to the patients
>and what risk they are subject to by this absurd practice that appears to
>have more relation to fraternity initiation than the teaching or practice
>of medicine.






Oh please, not again!

Not so soon, anyway.


---------------------
Howard Doyle
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Diabetic coma
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:00:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug28.160036.8692
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Aug28.144329.25197@sbcs.sunysb.edu> rick@cs.sunysb.edu (Rick Spanbauer) writes:
>	I appreciate your presence
>	here enough that if I have to contribute money to a "Usenet
>	Malpractice Insurance" fund to ensure continued participation on
>	your part, I will.
>

I don't know about Gordon and Ken, but US dollar bills of any denomination
(no checks, please!) may be sent to me directly to ensure my continued
participation here on sci.med.  Larger bills preferred, of course.

:-)

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: ron@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Ron Miller)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:39:41 GMT
Subject: Re: CLINTON NEW TEXT: AIDS
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: sci.med

Re- Political announcements

I hereby propose that all sci.*  newsgroups be moderated until Nov. 5.


Ron
From: odp@ldgo.columbia.edu (carl brenner)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: CFIDS and Lyme
Summary: References
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:09:21 GMT
Organization: Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory

In article <95ln-=l@lynx.unm.edu>, bhjelle@carina.unm.edu () writes:
> In article <1992Sep2.053319.580@equator.com> jod@equator.com (John Setel O'Donnell) writes:


> >And while we're talking about "legitimate researchers".  My long
> >personal experience is that the mainstream guys who publish in NEJM
> >have their heads firmly planted in the sand.  I've been treated by 3
> >of em.  Treated badly, in ways that contributed to my Lyme becoming
> >deep seated and currently incurable.  I see them ignoring fundamental
> >facts, searching for post-Lyme syndrome, CFIDS, autoimmune diseases,
> >rather than recognizing their treatment failures for what they are:
> >persistent infections.  This despite work in the European journals for
> >several years now reporting culturing Bb in patients treated with the
> >mainstream protocols.
> 
> Your calling them persistent infections makes it so?

	No, the papers and abstracts popping up on culture-confirmed treatment
failures make it so. See, for example, Preac-Mursic's 1989 paper in "Infection,"
or Liegner's or Masters's abstracts from this year's Int'l Conference in 
Arlington.
	The data are there. But nobody's paying any attention to it. It's 
really bizarre.


> Brian
> 

Carl Brenner
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: CFIDS and Lyme
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:41:15 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <1992Sep1.192843.15939@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu> odp@ldgo.columbia.edu (carl brenner) writes:
>
>	I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying that
>MS patients should be treated for Lyme. I was saying that seronegative patients
>with a high index of suspicion for Lyme should be treated, after efforts to
>find another cause for their symptoms have been sufficiently explored.
>	I most certainly was not advocating that all MS patients be treated
>for Lyme. That would indeed be a waste.
>

Yet, there is a "lyme specialist" in these parts that will treat
any MS patient that comes to him with IV Ceftraixone.  Any CFS
patient also.  

Quack.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: laub@Software.Mitel.COM (Boniface Lau)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Do "deodorant rocks" contain aluminum?
Date: 2 Sep 92 02:42:35 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.
In-reply-to: peerson@neyman.ucdavis.edu's message of 31 Aug 92 17:13:33 GMT

>>>>> On 31 Aug 92 17:13:33 GMT, peerson@neyman.ucdavis.edu (Jan Peerson) said:
[...]
Jan> She would like to get away from aluminum-containing
Jan> anti-perspirants, but does not know if the effective ingredient
Jan> of this rock is aluminum.

Is this the same aluminum that was linked to Alzheimer's disease?
--
Boniface Lau    (613) 592-2122 ext. 3042    Boniface_Lau@Mitel.COM
Mitel Corp.  				    
350 Legget Drive, Kanata
Ontario, Canada, K2K 1X3
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: gymnastics and growing up
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:08:42 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <9830@fs3.cam.nist.gov> crosson@cam.nist.gov (Robert Crosson) writes:
>
>It might be that practicing gymnastics at an early age stunts ones growth, but
>it's always seemed to me that the larger athletes just dropped out when it became
>obvious that they weren't able to compete.  I think I heard rumors at one time
>that the Soviets and Romanians were using hormones to delay their girl athletes
>from reaching puberty, with the accompanying weight gain and body development 
>that entails.
>

Actually, giving young children drugs to cause premature puberty would
be more effective.  Such hormones would cause closure of the growth
plates and cessation of growth.  When children with tumors get
precocious puberty (infant hercules syndrome) they often stop
growing.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: CANCER TREATMENT CTRS
From: Doug.Dozier@f5.n3611.z1.fidonet.org (Doug Dozier)
Date: 23 Aug 92 15:17:51 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3611/5 - Middle GA Medical F, Macon GA

I have seen the ads ad infinitum on CNN, etc. about "Cancer Treatment Centers 
of America."
 
What are these? No one I ask seems to know.
 

 

--  
Internet: Doug.Dozier@f5.n3611.z1.fidonet.org