From: rakoczynskij@gtephx.UUCP (Jurek Rakoczynski)
Subject: Re: Attitudes (wasRe- Silent or
Organization: AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, Arizona
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:32:24 GMT


In article <716036427snx@ietech.demon.co.uk>, nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk ("Nigel G. Backhurst") writes:
> 
> In article <1992Sep9.030235.2643@alw.nih.gov> drury@helix.nih.gov writes:
> 
> >
> >In article nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk ("Nigel G. Backhurst") writes:
> >>Pure kiai can stop an attacker totally, they will freeze, even
> >>fall over.  I know this can be done from my own experience.  It is
> >>said that the masters (fortunately apparently very few) can go a
> >>lot further.  This I can believe because in Han there is a similar
> >>tradition of a `spirit shout', which it is reputed could kill.
> >
> >Sound can certainly be used as a weapon.  E.g., the flash-bang
> >grenades used by anti-terrorist forces are highly disorienting.
> >But the idea that anyone can kiai in such a way as to
> >consistently knock down determined attackers (let alone kill
> >them) strikes me as pretty far-fetched.  Am I being too narrow
> >minded about this?  If you think so, is it just because you like
> >to keep an open mind about such things, or do you have some
> >actual experience with these uses of kiai?
> >--
> I have personnal experience of it.  Having been sent sprawling with
> a kiai from from my Sensie, I took the time and trouble to look
> into it further.  I cannot claim to be all that successful, though
> in perfect situations I could stop an attacker making them freeze,
> and a couple of times managed to get them to fall over.
> 
> There is far more too it than just a very loud shout.  In fact it
> seems that it need not be all that loud at all.  What is needed is
> concentration, the correct sound, and above all timing.  If you can
> `freeze' somebody at the correct point in thier stride, their momentum
> at that moment will unbalance them and they will fall.

Nigel,

IMHO I think you are mixing up two separate skills.  Richard A. Drury
(drury@helix.nih.gov) was responding to your use of "pure kiai", not
the timing of strikes.  Let's break up your statements into the two
parts:

First:
The use of kiai and it's effects is to help you focus.  The mind is a
powerful force, and IMHO the use of kiai can be compared to the use of
miracle cures using placebos in modern medicine, or cures/illness as a
result of faith healing or voodoo.  (Flame me direct vie email if I'm
offending your religious beliefs).  When I started studing MA's, one
sensei pinned me up against the wall by pressing his thumb against my
sternum, and told me I couldn't move, and I REALLY couldn't.  Several
years later, he tried it again.  I let him set up, pinned to the wall,
told me I couldn't move, a lot of pressure against the strenum with
his thumb.  Then I just casually pivoted out of the hold, and threw
him.  I'll let you think about why it didn't work the second time.

Second:
The timing of strikes to "break their stride" is only just that;
timing!  Taking advantage of off balance moments takes a lot of
practice and understanding.

Combining both of these can lead to very impressive moves.  At least
for me, the mystic and awe inspiring moves of MA's has give way to
analyzing how some impressive move was accomplished:  Let me see ...
they did this ... so they probably did it this way ... then this
happened ... because they did this ....

I don't mean to change how you perceive kiai and it's application,
especially if you find it effective.  Just that I look at it in a
differant way.

-- 
Jurek Rakoczynski, AG Communication Systems, POB 52179, Phoenix, AZ. 85072
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