HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Subject: Re: >>>A few facts about circumcision
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:44:17 GMT

In article <ssimmons.724600316@convex.convex.com> ssimmons@convex.com (Steve Simmons) writes:
>
>My question is what is the folklore behind both the Jews and Moslems requiring
>circumcision.  I am Jewish myself and have been told that it is merely 
>custom. 

HUH??  The traditional Jewish belief is that it is commanded by God,
just like kashrut, nidah, tefillin, Shabbat, and most other practices
of orthodox Judaism.  In particular, it is a sign of the covenant
between God and Abraham, to be carried throughout all generations.

Judaism is careful to distinguish commandments from customs.  The shape
of the kippah, or yarmulke, falls into the latter category.
Circumcision is very much in the former.

I'm speaking of traditional Judaism, of course.  With Reform, there is
so much variation that it is almost impossible to make definite
statements about what`s required and what's optional.  Indeed, that's
pretty much the whole spirit of the Reform movement.

[I can't help noticing that this morning, I've posted an article about
Chanukah, then an article about Christmas tree safety, and now an
article about brit milah.  Did you guess I'm in an interfaith marriage?]

>I would be more worried if they are looking
>(and talking) about each other's penises when showering.

Why would you be worried?  It's perfectly normal behavior.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@tti.com to you!)
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 93 22:42:15 GMT

In article <1941@frackit.UUCP> dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
>In article <1992Dec29.191816.8746@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jcopelan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (The One and Only) writes:
>> It is hard for us to let continue a practice with no good reason that involves
>> a non-consenting third party.  It would be a totally different matter if
>> the decision were your's about your body.
>
>And therin lies the crux of this whole discussion.  It is hard for you
>to "let continue a practice".  It is not your place to let or not let
>the practice continue.  Parents make choices for their kids at an age
>where the kids are incapable of making the decisions for themselves. 
>That's what parents are for.  For better or worse THEY make the
>decisions based on their best information and knowledge, not you. 
>Nothing says you can't try and inform them of facts you feel have been
>overlooked by the medical establishement UNTIL said informing becomes
>intrusive. 

This is where the government steps in.  There are limits.  Just because it is
legal RIGHT NOW is not a justification to continue the practice.

>[chop-chop] I can see an imaginary scene where some misplaced
>law forces parents to wait until a child hits the age of, say, 13 to
>decide if he wants 'the clip job' or not.  The kids answer would likely
>be:
>
>"You wanna do WHAT? To my WHAT?!?!?!?!?!? No friggin' way!"
>
>Which would make all the anti-circumcision people exceedingly happy but
>would not necessarily be The Right Thing [tm].

This is the best argument to stop the practice of infant circumcision (and 
explains the main reason why it is done to infants).  How could any parent
go ahead with the decision with the possibility that their son would feel
this way when grown up?

Secondly, I am pro-choice not anti-circumcision (sound familiar?).  There are
some similiarities with the abortion issue.  I wonder how many people are
pro-choice when it comes to abortion, but not when it comes to circumcision?
It seems to me to be hypocritical, how would one justify this?

What would make me happy would not be the fact that he chose NOT to be 
circumcised, but that whatever his decision was, HE made the choice.

Jim Copeland
--
Have you washed your brain today?
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Sign of the times
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:47:03 GMT


> Kathie Riggle writes:
> Let's try an example.  What if you had written this instead?

>  I think it's great that other parents trade off diapering, but not
>  all parents choose to do that.  My husband doesn't change diapers.
>  One, he works long hours and does the laundry, grocery shopping and
>  drops our child off at his mother's every single day.  Two, I prefer
>  to do the diaper changes.  So, even though it may be nice to trade
>  off chores, there are other ways to work it.

>See?  Now, who could flame you for that?  

Okay, O' Superior Goddess of NetWisdom, I'll give it a try:

  I think it's great that other parents have a fetish about diaper
  changing, but not all parents choose to do that.  Nobody changes
  the diapers around here.  However we do clean the cage about
  once a week and hose down the baby's butt twice a day.  Also
  we work long hours posting to the Nut-Noise Net and spend a lot
  of time flame-baiting and throwing.  I spent a whole hour lining
  the cage with chicken wire so that the urine and feces would
  drop down and not stick on the baby's butt.  Besides, he does
  have a cozy blanket in the corner so that if he chooses not
  to soil it, he'll have a comfortable place to sleep.  We
  also do the laundry, grocery shopping and dump our kid off
  at my mother-in-law's every single day where he gets a full
  bath and lots of pampering.  I definitely feel that we make
  a lot of effort to do this as it means driving over potholes
  and stepping across bloodstains to get there.  Two, I prefer
  to clean the chicken wire.  I even made a removable tray lined
  with newspaper to catch all the droppings.  So, even though it
  may be nice to change diapers, there are other ways to work it.

Anyone who doesn't like my posts, feel free to add me to your kill-file...
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: sandy@fc.hp.com (Sandy Arvidson)
Subject: q
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:19:24 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.3 PL6]
From: jim@ (Jim Fare)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Love you forever (was Re: Hormonally Enhanced
Date: 23 Dec 92 16:13:52 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Canada Ltd., Waterloo, Ont.

In article <1992Dec22.175243.4702@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom) writes:
>In article <22DEC199212151641@eldyn.gsfc.nasa.gov> goldberg@eldyn.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patti Twigg) writes:
>>you really want a good cry try 'Love You Forever', forget the
>>author right now).
>
>Robert Munsch! It is a fabulous book, I kept it by my bedside and read it
>"Love You Forever'. I started crying half way thru, and continued crying for
>about a half hour. 
>

My mother saw that book in a bookstore, started reading it and ended up crying
at the store for 30 min.  She says that she felt so guilty she _HAD_ to buy
the book.  She gave the book to me and while I was reading it, she started
crying again.  I also had "a minor eye irritation" while reading it.  

Excellant book if you like to be emotionally manipulated by ficticious events
fabricated by some stranger.  Bah- Humbug!     :-)

                                               [J.F.]
From: lm3a+@andrew.cmu.edu (Laura McGinnis)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: ultrasound
Date: 21 Dec 92 10:00:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.EfBW99G00iV0M2Z2Bs
	<168C491C6.BIOSEE@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Organization: Administrative Computing & Info Services, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

On 21-Dec-92 in Re: ultrasound               
user Stephanie Edelmann@UKCC. writes:
>I'd have one even though there is probably no need to have one.  It was
>the biggest thrill when I saw my 13 week old daughter doing summersaults (sp?)
>in there.  Especially at this young age you can see the whole baby as it
>moves around, not just a faint hand or head.  It's just plain neat.
> 
>Also, I'd definitely bring a videotape. My Doctor forgot to tell me to
>bring one and I was soooo disappointed when I found out that I could have
>taped it.

Most of the responses to the original poster's question have been along
these "go ahead & do it; it's really neat" lines.  True, it's a great,
non-invasive way of looking at the newest family member before a formal
appearance is made, but for me, it was even more.

With both of my kids, I had a hard time believing I was actually
pregnant & the changes in my body, especially the redistribution of
weight (I was in maternity clothes at 6 weeks with both pregnancies,
even though I didn't gain any weight), were really getting me down. 
Listening to the baby's heartbeat at the doctor's office was great, but
that was only once/month for the first 6 months.

But seeing the baby moving, watching the heart beating and watching them
suck their thumbs, etc., really gave me the boost to stick to my diet,
get enough sleep, and so on.  For me, the time between hearing the
baby's heart beat and feeling pregnant instead of fat was one of the
most difficult parts of the pregnancy.  Having the ultrasound pictures
to refer to (& talk to :-) helped me accept & appreciate what was going
on.

Since I'm a bona fide member of the "I Hate To Be Pregnant Club",
anything that could be done to boost my spirits we figured would improve
the outcome for the baby.  I now have the two most perfect kids in the
world (:-)) and have felt no resentment, etc., towards them for the
trouble they caused before they arrived (this can be a serious concern
for mothers who have had difficult pregnancies and/or labor &
deliveries).

If everything is going fine & you don't feel the need for ultrasound or
any unnecessary testing, don't feel pressured into having it done. 
Millions of babies arrive safe and healthy without it. I haven't done
any correlation, but it would be interesting to see how people with
different L&D goals (home birth, drug-free, epidural, scheduled
C-section, etc.) feel about this (e.g. how many of the
minimal-intervention crowd are advocating ultrasound as standard
procedure).  On the other hand, if you want to meet this little person,
go for it.  It gives you a great chance to bond with your child before
he or she makes the grand entrance.

OWO (One woman's opinion).

Laura
(Mom to Mickey (3 yrs) and Margee (6.5 months))
Newsgroups: misc.kids,soc.men,alt.atheism,alt.sex.wizards
From: lewism@jmb2.jmb.com (Mike Lewis)
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
Organization: JMB Realty Corporation
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:01:35 GMT

The One and Only (jcopelan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: 
: It is hard for us to let continue a practice with no good reason that involves
: a non-consenting third party.  It would be a totally different matter if
: the decision were your's about your body.

Who is this mysterious "us" you refer to?  Is "us" everyone who happens to
agree with your point of view?  What other decisions regarding *my* children
do you believe this "us" is entitled to make?

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about corporal punishment?  If I had to
guess, I would say that you are probably opposed to it, perhaps strongly so.
It is probably hard for you (and this "us" you mentioned) to let continue a
practice with "no good reason" that involves a non-consenting third party.
Frankly, it's none of your business, unless it crosses the line into child
abuse.  Here's hoping it stays none of your business in the future.

As far as circumcision is concerned, I guess I'm "on the fence".  However, I
definitely don't believe that you (and "us") have the right to impose your
views on others.
Xref: sparky misc.kids:31075 soc.men:21741 alt.atheism:24245
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: misc.kids,soc.men,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
Date: 23 Dec 92 16:59:18 GMT
Followup-To: misc.kids
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Dec21.040342.7660@cs.mun.ca> thom@cs.mun.ca (Thomas Clancy) writes:
>Right, and let's not forget that when someone goes in to have heart
>surgery they sometimes remove a lung by accident. 
> 
> Give me a break, shit happens. This is such a trivial procedure...
> Though I suppose the Doctor(s) might accidently sneeze and remove
> both testicles and a nurses eye in the process.

  Good point.  In fact, it's such a fine argument that I'm inclined
  to start a new religion that requires open heart surgery on all
  eight day old infants.  So what if a lung or two is accidentally
  removed?


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"Look, I tried the cat experiment.  On the third trial, the cat was
dead.  On each of the subsequent 413 trials, it remained dead.  Am I
doing something wrong?"
			James Nicoll

Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!
From: wendy@carson.u.washington.edu (Wendy Grant)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Birth announcement!
Date: 3 Jan 93 02:18:12 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu


Announcing the birth of:

 Douglas Grant Walter
 December 28, 1992 11:47 pm
 
 9 lbs, 5 oz. 22 1/4" long.

Very proud parents are David D. and Wendy Grant Walter.

Birth story to follow soon but the short version is that
he arrived after 15 hours of pitocin-induced labor (15
days) late and a C-section. More to come soon.

(He is very cute...)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: lauraf@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom)
Subject: Re: **> DISCOVERY TOYS <**
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:15:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.205227.23827@ra.oc.com> jws@hp835.mitek.com (Jeanetha Wemken) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.191509.6219@oakhill.sps.mot.com> johnm@oakhill.sps.mot.com writes:
>>In article 29906@sparky.imd.sterling.com, marko@IMD.Sterling.COM (Mark Olson) writes:
>>> ... my wife asked if we could
>>>have a catalog. "Sure," the discovery toys hawker said, "that'll be four 
>>>dollars."  My wife shot a look at the hawker that, if looks could kill, 
>>>convinced the hawker to give us the catalog for free.
>>
>>That IS ridiculous!! That's not standard policy, she was just trying to rip you off!
>>My wife and I are real new in the toy business. If anyone wants a catalog, we'll
>>mail it to you for FREE! Several of the toys are on sale in Jan/Feb.
>
>I too have been charged for a catalog to take home to my husband after
>attending and buying at a Discovery Toys party.

I get free catalogues, the thing that bugs me about Discovery Toys is their
need to add a shipping and handling fee to the bill! Why? they dont ship it
to your house. I have bought discovery toys 3 times. Once from a friend who
had a party (i didnt make it to the party), she gave me the toys a few weeks
later. The other two times from a woman who has a child at our preschool. The
school gets creidt for the sales. In that case I pick up the toys at the
preschool. That extra charge just doesnt make sense to me. I dont pay a shipping
and handling charge when I buy at a normal toy store, and they must have a higher
overhead then discovery toys. They manage to add overhead to the posted price. Any
dealers out there want to explain this?

They do have nice toys though. Some can be found elsewhere, but not all.
>
Laura Floom
From: 02h@oasys.dt.navy.mil (CDR Fred C. Wyse)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Galveston, Texas: Need address/phone #!
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:30:31 GMT
Reply-To: 02h@oasys.dt.navy.mil (CDR Fred C. Wyse)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

Is there anyone in/near/knows-about Galveston, Tx?

I need an address/phone# to reach a patient at the "University of Texas
Medical Branch" in Galveston.

Pertinent info:
    Patient names: Elizabeth Fisher(daughter) & Warren Fisher (father)
    Reason:        Kidney transplant (father to daughter)

Christmas card arrived today from long time friend; husband/daughter
in UTMB.  We would like to call/contact, wish well, etc., etc.

Does anyone have mailing address/phone number for patients at UTMB?
Would like to reach them tomorrow, Thursday, or Xmas.

Thanks for assistance.  Sorry to interrupt the bandwidth.  Merry Christmas
everyone.

Please E-mail to : 02h@oasys.dtrc.navy.mil.

					    Sincerely,
					    Fred Wyse
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 13:14:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.165836.7264@nsscmail.att.com> sdc@nsscmail.att.com (Sheryl D. Chapin) writes:
>
>
>1.  Recent studies have shown that circumcised men have less chance of
>   getting penile cancer.
>
>2.   A small number of men have a problem where the foreskin does not grow
>    with the penis.  (I forgot the name of this problem)  In this case a
>    circumcision is medically required.
>
>3.  The older a man gets the more painfull a circumcision is.  My sisters
>    boyfriend had to be circumcised when he was in his mid thirties, he
>    was in the hospital for two weeks.  According to my doctor, that is not


	It's like that Old Testament Bible story where all the men
	in a village got circumcised.  Then they got attacked and killed.
	They were in such pain, they could not fight.

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
From: ahelmers@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Tasks That Make You Queasy (Was: RE: Sign of the Times)
Date: 25 Dec 92 15:51:11 EST
Distribution: usa
Organization: Univ of Miami IR

In article <28952@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, dsegelho@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Diane Segelhorst) writes:
> 
> It's a funny thing, what you can stand. Before I had kids, I was the
> terribly squeamish type.  If anyone else vomited anywhere near me, I
> was bound to do the same :-(.  In fact that was one of my big worries
> about having kids - how could I stand to clean up after them when they
> were sick, without getting sick myself? (I was worried about gagging
> when I changed poopy diapers too.)
> 
> We all had the stomach flu a few weeks ago.  My son got it first, and
> came down with it in the car while we were driving home from daycare
> :-( :-( :-(.  He vomited ALL OVER the inside of the car.  We were on

[Diane's story of getting home and cleaning up huge mess deleted...]

> 
> Has anyone else got this "selective" queasy stomach?


Vomit isn't my fave, but it doesn't cause me to gag.  What I do feel is that,
although I don't *strenuously* mind changing my children's diapers (nasty job
but...sort of attitude) the very thought of changing somebody ELSE'S child's
diapers makes me want to retch!  I don't know, maybe because it is basically a
pretty foul task, I do it for my own but for anyone else--no way.  I have
occasionally thought that one of the many, many reasons to admire childcare
workers is that they cheerfully do this job for such a great number of messy
little bottoms that aren't their own.

Just my own quirk, I suppose.

Ann
From: valjorge@leapyear.EBay.Sun.COM (Valerie Jorge)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Misc.kids Membership list -- Updated 12/21/92 (finally!)
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:39:09 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: leapyear.ebay.sun.com



Please add us to your list!

05/28/92  Kevin Robert Hayes   parents:  Valerie and Matt Hayes
										 valjorge@leapyear.EBay.sun.com
										 Cupertino, California
From: janem@hpfcdc.fc.hp.com (Jane Marcus)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:39:17 GMT
Subject: Re: How Do You Celebrate Hannukah?
Organization: HP Fort Collins, Co.
Newsgroups: misc.kids

Thanks, folks, for all your suggestions.  We had a lovely celebration,
and exactly what I had had in mind.  We played games, sang songs,
ate (too much :-), lit the candles.  The kids got dreidls and Gelt
and one gift; even with the gift giving, the holiday didn't seem to
be about gift giving, but was special in its own right.  Thanks to so 
many of you for sharing your ideas to make this Hannukah a memorable one 
for me and my family.  I feel up to celebrating Christmas now.

Happy holidays!
Jane Marcus
jane@apollo.hp.com
From: ahelmers@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: You Know You're a Parent When...
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:55:54 EST
Organization: Univ of Miami IR

You Know You're a Parent When...

You proudly boast to the net that your kids sleep 12 hours nightly, and then
*that very night* the baby wakes up (for good) screaming at 3:30 a.m.  and your
son announces he has a sore throat which means a cold for Christmas.

The bragging genie got me again :).

Ann Helmers
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Neglected or Abused Children, CPS, Foster Care and Prison
Date: 22 Dec 92 06:38:21 EST
Followup-To: misc.kids
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <2285@newsserver.cs.uwindsor.ca>, bouche2@server.uwindsor.ca (BOUCHER DAVID            ) writes:
> In article <1992Dec19.063547.6275@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
> 
>>[...]  One thing I do see; a vast majority of the kids
>>who end up in juvenile care facilities are from divorced homes.  Usually
>>the girls run away because: (a) daddy's new girl friend ran them off
>>(I work with two sisters that this happened to) or (b) they HATE their
>>new step-dad. 
> 
> (a) and (b) are the same.  They ran away because they didn't get along with
> custodial parent's new SO.  The way it is phrased here seems to imply that
> in both cases the problem is essentially the fault of men.  Either (a) daddy
> dumped mommy for a scheming little homewrecker who doesn't want the kids
> around or (b) step-dad is such a jerk (and probably an abuser too) so the kids 
> can't stand to be around him. 

I agree with you, it was my point exactly.  I didn't mean to imply it was
the fault of the men, except when they are the one doing the neglecting.
The problems I see are nearly always caused by the parents choosing or
supporting a new mate over the children they already have.  Whether it is
Mommy or Daddy, it all comes out the same, the child is the sufferer.  
I do know there are kids who try to break up their parent's new marriage,
but too often, what I see are discarded kids who just have no place to 
go and no one to turn to.  
How on earth are these kids going to go on and be good parents and members
of society themselves?


> 
> I don't think that's really what you meant to imply... maybe when you were
> writing this you were thinking about your foster son's father, who does sound
> like a jerk from the way you describe him.  However, I don't think he is typicalof the men who get caught up in the Child Protection/Support/Custody Meat
> Grinder.  Like the rain, it comes down on the good and the evil with equal
> force.
> 

You need to put more hard returns in your posts.  My local net node truncated
your lines and made them impossible to read.

Sue

> - db
>  
> 
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: patti@nestor.cc.bellcore.com (stankovich,patricia a)
Subject: Re: Childcare Holiday standards
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 14:27:59 GMT

Our daycare provider gets paid for all holidays, also.
Each holiday is spelled out in the contract we sign
at the beginning of each year, so we know ahead of time
when daycare is closed.  At first my husband and I
were a little miffed at the idea, but we get paid for
holidays, don't we?  The entire building is closed just
like daycare is closed.  So we don't begrudge her
paid holidays.
Newsgroups: misc.kids