HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tmi@netcom.com (Peter Alan Kasler)
Subject: Alameda County (CA) Lawsuit
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:57:00 GMT

If you've been following the Bay Area news lately you may have heard 
about Don Perata's newest assault on gun owners, a proposed 
ordinance that would require anyone purchasing a handgun in 
Alameda County to go to Hayward between the hours of 8:00 am and 
5:00 pm Monday through Friday to be photographed and fingerprinted 
before being able to complete their purchase.

Co-funded by the NRA and the SAF, Don Kates prepared a lawsuit to 
challenge this proposed ordinance if it should be enacted. He also 
wrote the Alameda Board of Supervisors advising them that such an 
ordinance would not withstand a legal challenge, citing his previous 
victories in San Francisco in 1982, and others.

Don and I worked late last night putting the finishing touches on the 
complaint and on a press release he prepared for Brian Judy of the 
NRA, should the ordinance be enacted.

The Supervisors convened at 9:00 am this morning and decided that 
due to the threat of litigation, they would postpone discussion of the 
proposed ordinance until their meeting on October 20th.

The complete texts of Kates' letter to the Supervisors, the press 
release he prepared, and the complaint itself that will be filed
should they decide to enact the ordinance, is available for downloading in
the files library on the TMI BBS. The files are ALAMEDA.CMP, ALAMEDA.LTR, 
and ALAMEDA.PR.

The TMI BBS can be reached at 707-935-1713 (8-N-1) 24 hours per 
day; there are no fees.

-- 
     Peter Alan Kasler                            Fax: 707-939-8684
     Threat Management Institute                Voice: 707-939-0303
     800 West Napa Street                     TMI BBS: 707-935-1713
     Sonoma, CA  95476                     Internet: tmi@netcom.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Freaks And Self-Defense
Organization: Twilight Zone
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 19:40:57 GMT

In article <1aebi9INNsih@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen) writes:
>
>In a previous article, cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen) says:
>
>>
>
>>On a related note, I read above a post from someone in Iowa City who was
>>angry at all gun owners because of Gang Lu's senseless rampage in Iowa
>>City.  One question I have never heard these people even address, much less
>>answer to anybody's satisfaction, is: if guns or other weapons _cause_ this
>>sort of behavior, why is it unknown at gatherings, such as the SCA's
>>Pennsic War, or "buckskinner" rendezvous, where everybody can be assumed to
>>_be_ armed?
>
	snip...
>
>Comments?  Flames?  Anything?

	Shit to that... how about Knob Creek where hundreds (thousands??)
	of people gather every year with FULL AUTOMATIC weapons by the
	truck load.  It's kind of funny how you never hear about the mass
	slaughter of thousands of people every year at this event, caused
	by EvilSatanic(tm) machine guns.  Of course the Target's Rights
	groups ARE up in arms about this senseless slaughter of paper,
	wood, plastic and metal products.

	How about the several hundred thousand cops and other armed agents?
	Granted that many of them are slobs of the first order and do indeed
	shoot LOTS of innocent people every year, but your average beat cop
	does not seem to murdering civilians by the dozen as would be expected
	by those who claim that EvilAssaultHandguns(tm) cause people to become
	blood thirsty homicidal psychopaths.

	-Andy V.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: lambert@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Tim Lambert)
Subject: Re: Who's "free-er"? Intrnat'l response wanted!
Organization: none
	<Bus22y.Lzn@brunel.ac.uk> <1992Sep24.155751.921@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Date: 1 Oct 92 00:11:42

>>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 92 15:57:51 GMT, meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers) said:

> There's an article about youse guys in the
> November 1992 Guns & Ammo magazine
>>From: rterry@hpcuhc.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry)

>>>Has there ever been any proof that gun control works in the UK?
>>>I'm interested in a comparison of violent crime before and after
>>>gun control was instituted in the UK in the 1920's(?).  It's quite
>>>possible that gun crimes went down, but if other violent crimes
>>>increased, then I'd claim that gun control has not really worked in
>>>the UK, assuming non-gun violence increased as much as gun violence
>>>decreased.

>>The following doesn't specifically address your question, but it
>>does imply that violent/gun related crime was very low prior to the
>>Firearms Act of 1920.

>>   "During the period 1911 to 1913, firearms were involved in an
>>   average of 45 crimes of all types per year.  During the period
>>   1915 to 1917, the average had fallen to 15 cases per year."
>>   (Colin Greenwood)

This comparison is not very useful since 1915-17 were war years, when
close to half of the males of military age were in the armed forces.

Homicide rates in England 1921-30 were significantly lower than the
period 1911-20.  It would be interesting to find out the with-gun
homicide rates, to see if this decline could plausibly be attributed
to gun control.

Tim
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter)
Subject: Re: Privileges and Rights. (was: Re: GORE...)
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 21:53:27 GMT

In article <6816@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com
(C. D. Tavares) writes:

> In article <1992Sep28.141046.727@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson) writes:
> > One of the things thats intriqued me is the method by which
> > a criminal[Felon] can have his second ammendment rights amongst 
> > others removed but still retain other rights. If I am correct
> > a convicted felon looses his/her right to: Vote, Firearms,
> > Property ownership, public office. Is this true or false.
> > And if so where is it written that your constitutional rights
> > can be revolked. 
> 
> The 14th Amendment says that your right to vote may be denied
> for participation in rebellion or other crime.  The 13th says that
> involuntary servitude may be invoked as a punishment for crime.
> Other than these two references I cannot find any explicit language
> in the Constitution that says that the government has the right to
> abridge any other rights as the result of a crime.

This may depend.  It may have been left for the States to handle.  The
5th Amendment allows for a persons rights (liberty) to be revoked under
certain conditions:

  "No person shall.... be deprived of life, liberty, or property,
   without due process of law;..."

I assume this was left open, so laws could be passed to deal with
this situation.

-- 
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Technological University, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------------
With your one remaining eye, please do NOT look back into the laser
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: clc5q@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Clark L. Coleman)
Subject: 1992 Senate Races: No Contest
Originator: clc5q@hemlock.cs.Virginia.EDU
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:45:25 GMT


Here are the 1992 Senate races with the most extreme differences in the
Gun Owners of America (GOA) ratings (defiend as a full letter grade or
more, or an A- grade or better versus someone who did not return the
GOA questionnaire.)  See my previous posting for grade explanations.
A+ is the best pro-gun grade, F- is anti-gun leader who sponsors gun
control legislation.

Looks like it is time for the gun owners in South Dakota, Wisconsin,
Arkansas, Indiana, Illinois, Maryland and California to get their
tails down to the voting booth on November 3.  They have extreme
differences of 2 or more full letter grades in their races.



Arkansas
--------
Bumpers (D) inc.   D-
Huckabee (R)       B-

California
----------
Boxer* (D)         F-
Herschensohn (R)   A

Colorado
--------
Campbell (D)       A
Considine (R)      B

Georgia
-------
Fowler (D) inc.    F
Coverdell (R)     NR

Idaho
-----
Stallings (D)      A
Kempthorne (R)     B

Illinois
--------
Braun (D)          F-
Williamson (R)     A-

Indiana
-------
Hogsett (D)        F
Coats (R) inc.     B

Iowa
----
Lloyd-Jones (D)   NR
Grassley (R) inc.  A-

Maryland
--------
Mikulski (D) inc.  F
Keyes (R)          B

Missouri
--------
Rothman-Serot (D) NR
Bond (R) inc.      A-

Ohio
----
Glenn (D) inc.     F
DeWine (R)         D

Oklahoma
--------
Lewis (D)         NR
Nickles (R) inc.   A-

Oregon
------
AuCoin* (D)        F-
Packwood (R) inc.  D

Pennsylvania
------------
Yeakel* (D)        F-
Specter (R) inc.   C-

South Carolina
--------------
Hollings (D) inc.  C
Hartnett (R)       A

South Dakota
------------
Daschle (D) inc.   F+
Haar (R)           A-

Wisconsin
---------
Moody* (D)         F-
Kasten (R) inc.    B




-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is seldom that any liberty is lost all at once." David Hume
|||  clc5q@virginia.edu (Clark L. Coleman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: tmi@netcom.com (Peter Alan Kasler)
Subject: Re: alameda county law
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 06:21:14 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Keywords: gun control 
Distribution: usa

In <1992Sep23.202111.8176@csi.jpl.nasa.gov> mwette@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Matt Wette) writes:


>In article <1992Sep23.175920.13931@micom.com>, jclymore@micom.com (Jimmy Clymore) writes:
>|> i just heard on the radio this morning that the alameda county supervisors
>|> passed a law yesterday???? that requires purchasers of firearms to be  
>|> fingerprinted and have their pictures taken!!!!!!!! right now the law is
>|> only applicable in the unincorporated areas, but the supervisors hope to
>|> have the law passed in the cities as well. jeez, and i thought you only
>|> got fingerprinted and had your picture taken if you got arrested!!!!!!!!

>This is truly scary -- I hope the scum sucking supervisors in LA don't
>get wind of this.

>I am curious.  Are there any laws preventing someone going to another
>part of the state to purchase a gun?

	A resident of California may purchase a firearm anywhere
within the state, regardless of where he or she resides.
-- 
          Peter Alan Kasler                        Fax: 707-939-8684
          Threat Management Institute            Voice: 707-939-0303
          800 West Napa Street                 TMI BBS: 707-935-1713
          Sonoma, CA  95476                 Internet: tmi@netcom.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: Kevin Langston <langston@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: Perot
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Originator: langston@eugene.convex.com
Reply-To: langston@convex.COM (Kevin Langston)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Technical Operations
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1992 16:04:20 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

bjones@convex.com (Brad Jones) writes:
>
>I've heard him say that the answer to crime is suspension/elimination
>of the Second Amendment.  I've also seen it in print, but I haven't
>kept any copies.

    I just called a Perot Hot Line here in Dallas (214) 960-9100.
    The staffer on the other end said she didn't know his position
    on gun control, she didn't believe anyone did, it might be in 
    the book but she hasn't read all of it so she can't be sure, and 
    no, there's no one else I can talk to.

    I didn't even get a chance to leave a polite recommendation because
    she had to take another call.

    I wonder when he's going to start asking our opinions since one of
    his two "campaign promises" is to get the people involved. 
    
    Or did he actually say "his" people...

-- 
--  Kevin Langston           Convex Computer Corporation, Technical Operations
--  langston@convex.com  --  langston@frontier.lonestar.org
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the security of a free state,
 the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed." JNS
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tuesday, 6 Oct 1992 13:48:01 CDT
From: Wesley Bielinski <U53734@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: THE LAW OF RETRIBUTION

What a bunch of @%#&!
You don't actually believe this do you?
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid question time
Date: 29 Sep 92 02:02:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Sep28.214514.1335@osf.org>, craig@dimple.osf.org (Craig Peterson) writes:
> As was pointed out
> earlier, passing unconstitutional laws knowingly is treason.

I pointed this out, but I was wrong.  According to the Constitution,
treason requires dealing in some manner with an enemy.  Certainly
it should be a high crime.

> 	They all make judgements based on these rules.  They levy
> 	fines, confiscate property, and some even call their judicial
> 	implements courts (viz. tax court).
> 
> My, oh my.  Here we have all three branches of power vested in
> government agencies.

Hey, it's worse than that.  Even companies have courts now.  I had a
colleague from IBM call me and ask me what encryption facilities were 
included on certain software tapes.  It seems they shipped a number of
them overseas without thinking about the problem.  She said she needed
this information because in a couple of weeks she had to "go to IBM Court"
and give evidence.  I found this concept bizarre.  I asked her, "What
happens if they find you guilty -- do they send you to IBM Jail?"
--

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Re: A little on self defense (what should I carry ?)
Organization: Twilight Zone
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:06:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.144047.16509@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Morris the Cat) writes:
>
>In <4400255@iftccu.boeing.com> Rick Bressler states:
>
>|>enforcement leaders.  I seem to recall reading in one of Ayoob's
>|>books (I believe it was _The_Truth_About_Self_Defense_, a very
>|>good book BTW) that, sincE Carrying "clubs" or a variety of 
>|>martial-arts instruments was deemed illegal, he recommended
>|>carrying a "Magna-Light" or equivalent large, metal flashlight.
>
>|I believe it is Detroit that has now outlawed anything over 3 cells....
>
>Are you shittin' us? Where did you hear that? Is it any METAL flashlight
>over 3 cells? Is the cell size specified? I noticed that LEGEND makes
>a 3-AA cell metal flashlight... I wonder if that odd size was chosen
>so that it could double as a martial arts instrument? Does this mean
>those old sheet metal flashlights like the ribbed Ray-O-Vacs are illegal
>to carry?

	These are the obviously dangerous "Assault Flashlights", replete
	with their Evil(tm) high capacity magazines (>3 cells, no size
	specified).

	They are super powerful, have no legitimate sporting purpose and 
	must therefore be banned.

	-Andy V.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani)
Subject: Re: Candidate ratings on RKBA
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 05:08:09 GMT

In article <1al4liINNq9s@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bb063@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher J. Crobaugh) writes:
>Here is a composite rating of the candidates for OHIO offices...

Could you give us the algorithm used to come up with this rating, please ?
I'm a bit suprised that you'd rate John Kasich, my US representative,
as an F; at worse I'd rate him a B.  His opponent, Fitarski, is rated
as an A- by GOA and OCDC rates him an F.  I've never heard of him, so
I don't have an opinion on him.  I might vote for him just to throw
out an incumbent!
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Yet further tripe from Richard Reeves
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:08:16 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Sep30.005444.19197@alc.com>, alford@alc.com (Mack Alford) writes:
> This same tripe showed up in the San Jose Monkey News.  As I remember, there
> was discussion in this group some time ago that rebutted these studies.  If 
> someone will provide me with this information, I will be glad to write a letter
> to the editor to try to rebut this here in San Jose -- I encourage others to do
> the same wherever it appeared.  

This column showed up in THOUSANDS of papers.  How about the following
suggestion:  Somebody here post a cogent rebuttal of 200 words or
less, and we each can sign it individually ourselves and send it to our 
local "Reeves outlet" newspaper.  It would be more efficient than
everybody writing a different letter to a different newspaper.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: clc5q@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Clark L. Coleman)
Subject: Ten Most Wanted List (HCI Contributions)
Originator: clc5q@hemlock.cs.Virginia.EDU
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 22:06:26 GMT


Please put posters up at the local post office.  :-)

Here are the top 10 recipients in HCI Voter Education Fund contributions,
total of 1990 and 1992 donations, from "Handguns for Sport and Self Defense",
November, 1992, issue, page 83 (current Senate or House race in par.):

1) Beryl Franklin Anthony, Jr., Arkansas DEMOCRAT: $10,900 (district AR-4)
2) Lynn Hardy Yeakel, Pennsylvania DEMOCRAT:       $ 9,900 (Senate)
3) George E. Brown, Jr., California DEMOCRAT:      $ 4,649 (district CA-36)
4) Les AuCoin, Oregon DEMOCRAT:                    $ 4,500 (Senate)
5) Thomas H. Andrews, Maine DEMOCRAT:              $ 3,000 (district ME-1)
   Charles E. Schumer, New York DEMOCRAT:          $ 3,000 (district NY-10)
7) Vic Fazio, California DEMOCRAT:                 $ 2,500 (district CA-4)
   Robert (Bob) Garcia, Texas DEMOCRAT:            $ 2,500 (district TX-29)
   Ben T. Reyes, Texas DEMOCRAT:                   $ 2,500 (district TX-29)
10) George E. Sangmeister, Illinois DEMOCRAT:      $ 2,045 (district IL-4)


Not much difference between Democrats and Republicans, judging by this list,
huh?
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is seldom that any liberty is lost all at once." David Hume
|||  clc5q@virginia.edu (Clark L. Coleman)
From: clc5q@hemlock.cs.Virginia.EDU (Clark L. Coleman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Brady Bill squashed and other news
Keywords: Brady, Good riddance
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:18:40 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department

In article <viking.718078304@vincent2.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>It's official.
>
>	Today, while listening to the radio, I heard the crime bill
>failed to get past the Senate.  Part of the crime bill was the
>Brady Bill. 

Great news.

>.............................BTW: the bill was defeated
>due to a Republican filibuster, something you might want to look
>for when determining which senator to vote for in upcoming elections.

No, it COULDN'T have been a REPUBLICAN filibuster!  After all, there is
NO DIFFERENCE between the parties, right?  So, there must have been a
dozen or so good, conservative, Southern Democrats taking part in that
filibuster, right?  After all, they don't let those Northern liberals
shove them around, do they?

By the way, people used to talk about the Boll Weevil Democrats 20 years
ago, and how they crossed over to vote Republican all the time.  This
was the propaganda from the leftist news media to convince us that the
conservatives had a well-hidden death grip on the Congress, and thus were
actually responsible for everything that passed (and by implication, the
Republicans were responsible.)  Hint: If you had that many crossover
votes, you wouldn't have to filibuster.

I'm really going to enjoy posting the summary of how the vote went, BY
PARTY AFFILIATION.  Any Libertarian demagogues out there who want to put
their money where their mouth is and bet me whether there is a significant
difference between the two parties on this one?

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is seldom that any liberty is lost all at once." David Hume
|||  clc5q@virginia.edu (Clark L. Coleman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: schabel@calspan.com (Dave Schabel)
Subject: Re: Re: A little on self defense (what should I carry ?)
Organization: Calspan Advanced Technology Center
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:28:32 GMT

In article <4400255@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
>
>I believe it is Detroit that has now outlawed anything over 3 cells....
>Or was it Chicago?  All those citys east of the Rocky Mountains are 
>pretty much the same to me. :-)!!!!!  
>
>Rick.

Bill Vojak has informed me that Chicago has indeed
last year banned any metal flashlight over 3 cell size.
What's next?  (Please don't answer that ... the question
was rhetorical only.  I don't really want to find out!)


				Dave Schabel
				schabel@calspan.com
From: rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Morris the Cat)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid question time
Date: 28 Sep 92 15:29:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T


|>[3] Judicial Recall Power.

|So would this.  I like the idea, though.  However, recall should be fairly
|difficult to achieve (2/3 or 3/4 majority, maybe) to avoid a wildly fluctuating
|judiciary subject to the political mood du jour.  We need stability in
|upholding Constitutional law.  We had it for 150 years.

Such a supermajority virtually guarantees a "status quo" for the judiciary.

Yes, you'll get your "stability," but you will pay the price in that
those there are going to stay put.

The IL RKBA provision is a useless set of phrases due to the Democrat 
control of the Illinois Supreme Court. A state-preemption bill is a 
virtual dead letter because just such a supermajority is required to pass
a bill that override local restrictions.

Neither is a binding referendum possible, as the state Constitution 
prohibits this as well. Illinois is at the mercy of the Democratic Party's
hold on the Illinois Supreme Court.
From: post@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (David Post)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 21:28:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Join, Mike, join!   (Was: A Letter To The Editor)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns

In talk.politics.guns, jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson) writes:

 >Sign up for the EZ-Pay life plan (like I did!): $60 down, and $40 a quarter
 >until you're paid up.  The membership number is (800) 368-5714

This is not really a flame on NRA, so please read the whole thing :-)

Before signing up for a life membership, please consider that until last
years election, the NRA was not really very active in supporting RKBA.  They
appear to have been more interested in supporting sporting events and other
not so political program.

If you want to join the NRA to support the RKBA, please consider voting for
RKBA activists for the Board of Directors each election instead of being
apathetic like many American voters at the polls.

Also note that the NRA supports or opposes legislation using funds from the
Institute for Legislative Action ( ILA ) and supports or opposes specific
candidates using funds from their Political Victory Fund ( PVF ).

It is my understanding that these two Funds get only a small allocation from
the general fund.

My conclusion is that a lifetime membership is not a very strong statement
of support for RKBA, but contributions to the ILA and the PVF are.

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post