HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Re: Oprah 11/19
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:59:08 GMT


In article <1992Nov20.040700.26375@col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

|>  Therefore, I would like to ask a couple of probably really
|> dumb questions, but please believe me that I am sincere and only ask
|> because I do care about other people and have a desire to understand.  So,
|> 1) I believe that whether a person is gay or straight depends on genetics.
|> Therefore, when a person is born, it has already been determined...being
|> gay is not "learned behavior that one can change" as the religious fanatics
|> would have us believe.  Is this belief correct? 

Studies which have tried to find some link between 
upbringing and sexual preference have failed.  For
most people, gay and straight alike, sexual orientation
is something that feels natural and innate.  There
is some evidence that there is likely to be at the
very least a genetic component (identical twins show
a much higher concordance than fraternal twins.)

It's interesting to note that even if we got past
the people who say "it's an evil choice" there are
slews of people who say "I don't care if it's a choice,
it's evil."  

|> 2) During the Oprah episode,
|> several "straight" individuals accused a couple of lesbians on the show of
|> really wanting to be men since they chose to dress or "act" like most people
|> think men should behave. 

Some lesbians and gay men do not accept or feel bound by
traditional restrictions on how men or women are supposed
to dress or behave, so they pick and choose what feels 
comfortable to them.

Because these people are visible as compared to the vast
majority of gays and lesbians who are boringly conformist,
many people think that *all* gays and lesbians are that
way.  There's nothing wrong with people acting different
from the norm - lots of straight people do it - the problem
is when people who act that way are defined as being "bad".

|> My question then is:  Like a heterosexual relation-
|> ship, do homosexual relationships generally have male and female roles...the
|> more dominant individual portraying a male role?

I'm sure there are some that do, but it's not common
or a requirement or inherent.  I'm sure you know straight
couples who could be on Ozzie and Harriet and others who
are more egalitarian.

My lover is a man; I am a man.  Neither one of us is more
dominant - we take turns :-)
-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
From: Minotaur@cup.portal.com (A Frank Swilling)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: ok, let me try this again
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 11:44:19 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <BxK1nE.8KB@agora.rain.com> <Bxyy4A.K44@fig.citib.com>

I join Greg Parkinson in giving Spencer Sun what-for:

>|> spencer@shine.Princeton.EDU (S. Spencer Sun) writes:

>|> >Yes, I am trying to change things.  Yes, I am trying to exclude
>|> >certain types of conversation from soc.motss.

Stop trying, you'll save yourself from an ulcer.

>|> >... what started this off was a message from John Dorrance. [...]
>|> >>What's the stupidest/lamest/strangest song lyric you know of?
>|> >>('I feel drunk', 'let's look for the purple banana 'til they put
>|> >>us in the truck')

That's the way -- uh-huh, uh-huh -- I like it -- uh-huh,-uh-huh
That's the way -- uh-huh, uh-huh -- I like it -- uh-huh, uh-huh

>|> >IMHO, soc.motss should be for gay-related conversations.  I interpret
>|> >that to mean conversations which, in substance, are gay-related.  This
>|> >article by Mr. Dorrance does not strike me as falling into this
>|> >category.

Your vote is registered.  Unfortunately, no one's tallying the votes.

>A discussion of how Keanu Reeves being tied up and
>assaulted by vampire maidens (or whatever) appeals
>to you *is* gay-related, but gay people talking about
>song lyrics is *not* gay-related.

>I see - whatever interests *you* is appropriate.

>Greg Parkinson

That's exactly right, Greg, although Spencer needs to mentally
expand that "you" to "any GLBO person".

I'm with Laura Creighton on this basic precept:  I'm here, I'm queer,
whatever flows out of my brain and on through my keyboard to soc.motss
is ipso facto gay-related.

Frank
Minotaur@cup.portal.com
From: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Marky Mark and Calvin Klein (was Re: Scott Masden)
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:24:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: queernet.BxsBwH.EGF
Organization: QueerNet

In article <1992Nov15.162201.11450@wixer.cactus.org>, lazarus@wixer.cactus.org
(Michael Lax) writes:
|> Some of us think he's a hunk, others think he's white trash.

Some of us think he's both.
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG              {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: Colorado Memory Systems & Non-Discrimination
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:06:04 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <BxvF9M.6uF@scd.hp.com> may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com (Elaine May) writes:

   So, if you're in the market for a tape backup system made by a queer-friendly
   company, you can consider CMS products.

My understanding is that HP is not exactly a "queer-friendly" company.
They did add sexuality to their EEO statement, after being lobbied
internally for a year-and-a-half, but they did it to avoid bad
publicity more than anything else.

My sense (from doing NGLTF Workplace Initiative work) is that HP is
moving forward, but very slowly, and they're pretty far back right
now...
--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
From: ai888@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Flesher)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: What Gay Sex (was Re: How Many Homosexuals?)
Date: 16 Nov 1992 18:36:19 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ai888@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Flesher)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

Ronald Hayden>>>  autochthonous?  Say what?

Tom>>  I knew this would happen. _I_ didn't say it; _Jess_ did.

Jess>  If you knew, you could have prevented it, probably.

I not only knew, Jess, I did my best to prevent it, by including 
explicit attribution in the material I quoted. You edited it out. 
Baaaaad Jess. Write one hundred times: "I will not remove 
explicit attribution from Tom's posts." And don't post it.

Tom>>  So ungainly a phrase as "autochthonous impulses" could
Tom>>  never have dropped from my honeyed lips. By the way, to
Tom>>  judge by the lone example of the concept that was eventually
Tom>>  provided by Jess at my prodding, the phrase simply
Tom>>  means "whims".

Jess>  It's to whims approximately as Marky Mark is to Mozart.

Hmmm... "autochthonous impulses" is to "whims" as Marky Mark 
is to Mozart. Thanks for the compliment, Jess. I'll be Mozart to your 
Marky Mark any time.

(s) Tom, whistling the theme from the first movement of Mozart's 
29th Symphony, and wondering if anyone will know who Marky 
Mark is two centuries after his death.

-----

Tom Flesher  (internet: ai888@cleveland.freenet.edu)

>>> Bigotry is merely cowardice in the face of complexity. <<<
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: Marky Mark and Calvin Klein (was Re: Scott Masden)
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:43:14 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) wrote:
>a Caribbean restaurant

I suppose that is sort of like going to a European restaurant, or
an Asian restaurant.

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3328.span@sdsc.edu
"Home is where your roof landed" - t-shirt seen in Miami
Hate, bigotry, and discrimination are not family values, even in
Colorado and Tampa.
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Date: 18 Nov 1992 17:15:22 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Nov18.223251.4117@osf.org> 
coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:

> I think I see now where a lot of the rancor came from in this
> discussion. I certainly missed the nuance that, in describing how
> CMU's acting program functions, you were not necessarily agreeing that
> that was how such a program *should* function. (Actually, upon
> rereading the above, I'm still not sure whether you think so or not.)

I seem not to have been successful in getting across
that I'm against any college or university undergraduate
major in a field as specialized as acting.  Why is that 
people immediately understand what would be inappropriate
with a B.A. in Nineteenth Century British Fiction, but not
a B.F.A. in Acting?  I do understand a B.F.A. in Theater 
with an emphasis in acting, but not this quasi-conservatory
approach.  In any case, the only way a CMU style program can 
function is the way CMU's does.  Did you see the figures 
Scott posted?  Of the 50 entering students for every class, 
only 15 to 20 graduate.  So of course only the *most* talented 
and, of the merely talented, only the most marketable (read
straight-acting, attractive, non-ethnic) survive.  Am I
delighted by that?  Of course not.  But I understand why
it happens and I don't really see any way out so long as this
kind of program continues to exist.

Arne
From: ai888@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Flesher)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: What Gay Sex (was Re: How Many Homosexuals?)
Date: 17 Nov 1992 02:56:13 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Reply-To: ai888@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Flesher)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu

du> <102165@bu.edu> <1992Nov16.193007.28411@macc.wisc.edu>
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)

In a previous article, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) says:

Hot Young Star>>  au.toch.tho.nous \o.-'ta:k-th*-n*s\ \-ne-\ aj : INDIGENOUS, NATIVE

Nelson>  damn, and here I'd parsed "autochthonous" as

Nelson>      auto-chthonous

Correctly.

Nelson>  which any student of obscure words will recognize as being a bizarre
Nelson>  way to say "self-destructive". Maybe I should give my queer wordsmith
Nelson>  card a rest for a few days.

Maybe. Chthon (long o) is Greek for "earth, ground"; what conjectured 
etymology led you to "destructive"?

Nelson>  ObMotss - after learning the word "chthonian" (from what source, I am
Nelson>  ashamed to admit), I did my damndest to use it in an English paper.

Do you mean that "chthonian" was once code for "gay", as "uranian" was?
I'd never heard that. Odd thing if it's true: gays held both earth and heaven 
("uranian" is from Greek "ouranos", meaning "sky, heaven"); so what room 
was left for straights?

-----

Tom Flesher  (internet: ai888@cleveland.freenet.edu)

>>> Bigotry is merely cowardice in the face of complexity. <<<

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: max@queernet.org (Max J. Rochlin)
Subject: Tell it to the Gov!
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:44:41 GMT
Distribution: USA
Organization: QueerNet

Tired of boycott/don't boycott discussions?  Want to do something that
really counts?   Call the Colorado Gov and tell him what you think.

The number is: 303-866-2474

once again: three zero three eight six six two four seven four.

...Max
-- 
+-----------------------------------------+
|  max@queernet.org  |   Max J. Rochlin   |
+-----------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Colorado Blues
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:30:52 GMT

> msp@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (Michael S. Pettersen) writes:

>I watched some of the international coverage on election night.  There
>was a program where they showed clips from Russian, Italian, Spanish,
>British, German and American television.  Some of the clips were subtitled or
>voiced-over, but the host, who was quite cute, did some
>simultaneous translation from English, Spanish and Italian.  It was also 
>charming to hear him say "Bill Clinton" (instead of "Beel Cleentow")
>in his adorable British accent (when he was speaking English)...

Even in this country it's not clear if our new President will
be Clinton or Clin'n...
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Cheese-Louise
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:16:49 GMT

> mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton) writes:
>> aberson@enh.nist.gov wrote:
>> > (the Crisco Kid) wrote:

>> >Yes, there is.  I've spent many a happy hour with Fruitbat, meeping
>> >gently and feeding each other with mangoes and Emmental.
>> 
>> I will have to try to find this (and wait 9 months for mangoes again, I
>> hope.  .  Anyone know if this is available on this side?  I've never 
>> even heard of it.
>> 
>I think it's Emmentaler, and it's the original, after which "Swiss
>cheese" was modeled...

In much the same way, and with equal success, as
International Foods Coffee-Flavored Drink Substitutes were
modeled after coffee...<ptooi>
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics,co.general,talk.politics.misc,co.politics.amend2.discuss,boulder.general,csu.general
From: dag@col.hp.com (David Geiser)
Subject: Re: Support the boycott (was Re: Don't boycott all of Colorado)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:11:13 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

vanm@col.hp.com (Van Martin) writes:
> 
>   "Hate what is evil" and according to my understanding of the Bible
>   (there it is - flame on!!!)  homosexuality is evil (NOTE:  NOT THE
>   HOMOSEXUAL).  

Reference please.
-- 

 Isn't it funny how Jesus was so peaceful and Christians are so pushy?

--
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney)
Subject: Re: Surly French waiters
Date: 21 Nov 92 21:26:19 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Windows/DOS Users Ed Group

In article <nosenseofirony@kaa.gr.osf.org> emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes:
>michaelh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Mike Hennahane) writes:
>>>> Ok, Matthew, what about that surly waiter you had??
>>>He was French.
>>need he say more?
>
>mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:
>>(you are correct, however, about it being *your* fault the Frenchman
>>exhibited his natural inclinations towards French-ness...)
>
>So Frenchmen are naturally surly, are they?  Well I suppose it might
>seem that way to Americans, stupid and vulgar as they are.
>

I must say I am disappointed in Eamonn for succumbing to the
very natural urge to say something nasty to the m-person by
heaping calumny on the other 300 million of us. I know I am
neither stupid nor vulgar, and and I am an American.

I, for one, would appreciate it if Eamonn could sharpen his
aim a trifle the next time he wishes to get off a potshot.
And include me, and those like me, out.

-- 
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
	"Well, I'm a little muddled." -- Glinda
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus)
Subject: Telephone surveys
Organization: Open Software Foundation Research Institute, Grenoble
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:48:41 GMT

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>mike@gordian.com (Michael A.  Thomas) writes:
>>For starters, nobody knows how many gay people there are --
>>not even the not in the closet gay identified variety.  How
>>then does one estimate their voting patterns or income or
>>toilet paper preferences?
>A few hundred well-chosen phone calls and a very well
>designed questionnaire instrument can indeed tell you a lot
>about any population you want to look at.  You can, if you
>work at it, determine within about three percent how many
>closeted gay men buy "green" toilet paper or any other
>cockamamie statistic you want.  Randomizing the sample is
>not difficult, but the questionnaire is *really* tough.

While it may indeed be possible to design a questionnaire to
elicit this information with such accuracy, I have two major
misgivings with what you say above.  First of all, how can you
tell that your results are accurate to "within about three
percent"?  I see no way to check apart from other surveys with
the same assumptions about accuracy.

Secondly, and I think more importantly, even assuming a
perfectly-designed questionnaire you cannot escape the fact
that lots of people are just not going to answer *any* personal
questions over the telephone.  I know I would refuse point
blank, for the simple reason that there is no practical way of
knowing that the person on the other end of the line is a bona
fide researcher and not for instance a prankster or even
someone with more malicious intent.  This is much less the case
for in-person interviews.

Incidentally, the recent French survey on sex that has been
quoted in this group, if it is the same one that I saw a TV
report on, used telephone interviews and is therefore to my
mind highly questionable.

,
Eamonn
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics,co.general,talk.politics.misc,co.politics.amend2.discuss,boulder.general,csu.general
From: buckmr@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Don't boycott all of Colorado
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 23:37:59 GMT

wdechent@usenet.umr.edu (William L. Dechent) writes:

>Does the Coors Brewing Company have a hiring policy that prohibits discrim-
>ination on the basis of creed, ethnicity, gender and sexuality?

>Thanks for the post of the free cities.  I'm going to one for business
>this spring and I feel better knowing the local people oppose bigotry. 

Please send me a list of the free cities.

And if anynoe has the data on Coors I'd like to know that too
[Yes, it's for the QRD]

-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735.  ``D.C. in 1993!''
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
"I will never apologize for the United States of America, ever. I don't care
what the facts are." -- George Herbert Walker Bush, President of the USA.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Pagan Cross-Dressing (was Re: Homosexuality and Christianity)
Organization: LLNL
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:23:51 GMT

In article <eshepard.721949754@orion.oac.uci.edu> eshepard@orion.oac.uci.edu (Ed Shepard) writes:

	[Paul in Romans 1...]

he refers to typical 
: practices of the fertility cults involving sex among priestesses and between 
: men and eunuch prostitutes such as served Aphrodite at Corinth, from where he 
: was writing this letter to the Romans. Their self-castration rites resulted in
: a bodily "penalty." Catherine Krueger comments in the Journal of the Evangelical
: Theological Society that "Men wore veils and long hair as signs of their 
: dedication to the god, while women used the unveiling and shorn hair to 
: indicate their devotion. Men masqueraded as women, and in a rare vase painting 
: from Corinth a woman is dressed in satyr pants equipped with the male organ. 
: Thus she dances before Dionysus, a deity who had been raised as a girl and was
: himself called male-female and 'sham man.'" Krueger continues: "The sex 
: exchange that characterized the cults of such great goddesses as Cybele 
: [Aphrodite, Ishtar, etc.] the Syrian goddess, and Artemis of Ephesus was more 
: grisly. Males voluntarily castrated themselves and assumed women's garments. 
: A relief from Rome shows a high priest of Cybele. The castrated priest wears 
: veil, necklaces, earrings and feminine dress. He is considered to have 
: exchanged his sexual identity and to have become a she-priest." As such, these
: religious prostitutes would engage in same-sex orgies in the pagan temples all
: along the coasts of Paul's missionary journeys.

	Seems rather similar to a San Francisco Gay Pride parade I
once attended. Although most present-day cross-dressing men don't go
as far as some of these men did in trying to become women. But guess
what a man -> woman sex-change operation involves? Among other things,
castration.

	Give me that old-time religion! :-):-)

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Subject: Re: Velveeta (was Patrick Stewart & "Space Age")
Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:30:39 GMT

nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>WHAT?! How dare you insult Patrick Stewart you.. you.. velveeta eater.

Careful dear, some people think that eating velveeta is quite exotic
and shows affluence, as you can only get it in very selected import
shops here.

Ok, I _am_ 'some people.' That wonderful Jim Turner sent me a jar of
the 'spread' version of velveeta, 'Cheez Whiz,' and I think it could be
a wonderful basis for a salad dressing. The taste is quite exotic to
me, there is nothing over here that emulates molten PVC to a degree
that edible.

Of course, reading the ingredient line-up made my forehead throw my
Dutch-'yellow cheese is our life' eye-brows practically against the
ceiling - Worcheister sauce? In cheese? Rod Sterling must be in this
somewhere....

							FJ!!
From: futor@llnl.gov ( Itz egin Euzkarraz al dezu? )
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: 1991 anti-gay measure ruled unconstitutional
Date: 20 Nov 92 15:05:16 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab.
Originator: futor@diego.llnl.gov


 snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass) writes:
>
>I don't think the reporter knew much about Co. 2.
>
>You are also right about the two overturned cases being based on
>each states own constitution....

Nor, for that matter, a whole lot about the "suburb(s) of Oakland" if
Concord is supposed to be one . . .

-- 
__
\/  -+-  randy  -+-  all generalizations are flawed  -+-  futor@llnl.gov  -+-
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Rap (Yes, you're still in soc.motss) (Re: Marky Mark
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 09:03:24 GMT

lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat) wrote: 
->Brett, there are probably like two people hear who know anything  
->about rap.  Most Gay men don't like rap.  Well, let me clarify  
->this.  Most Gay men don't like legitimate rap.  Marky Mark is  
->not a legitimate rapper.  I don't think any White man can be a  
->legitimate rapper.

racist pig.

->...  It's a Black thing and most Gay White men can't relate to  
->it and don't understand it.

what an ignorant thing to say.  you keep proving your cluelessness ...
it's quite sad.

->But rap remains intrinsically Black. You all could not handle  
->the real stuff ...

"you all" haven't a clue.  you may return to your rock now.

->Donald - It's time for some action!

start by extracting your head from  your butt.

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy."  -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
#     for information on the league for programming freedom, 
#                     write to lpf@uunet.uu.net