From: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Killing in defense of possessions?
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:05:39 GMT
Reply-To: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
Followup-To: talk.abortion
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In talk.abortion, mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.124138.2184@brandonu.ca> mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:

Thanks for posting the relevant sections. Let's put it in complete layman's
terms, to show that it really is pretty cavalier....

>From Sec. 9.41 (which governs the use of force generally to protect
>property):

 >- You must "reasonably believe" that force is "immediately necessary" to
 >  recover the property and you have to have used the force "immediately
 >  or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession" and

you must catch someone in the act or be chasing him from the scene of 
the crime where a theft has occurred.

 >- You must "reasonably believe" the other person had no claim of right
 >  when he dispossessed you of the property, *or* the other person must
 >  have accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud
 >  against you.

In other words, this must be a thief, not a banker reclaiming the car
you've failed to pay on. It must be your property without question,
with the person stealing it having no claims on it. (iow, it can't be
your wife taking a car when she files for separation.)

>From Sec. 9.42 (which governs the use of deadly force to protect
>property):

 >- You must meet the requirements of Sec. 9.41 (listed above), and

 >- You must reasonably believe *either* that you are preventing the other
 >  person's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated
 >  robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the
 >  nighttime *or* that you are preventing the person from fleeing
 >  and escaping with the property immediately after he committed burglary,
 >  robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime, and

In other words, a couple of creeps loitering around your car at night
in an otherwise quiet neighborhood would fall into this category. Also,
this broadens the crime definition to include other crimes than theft
or mere protection of your own property, in actuality spreading to all
types of crimes (criminal mischief). (BTW, the cops told us that it
did not have to be night-time, they would file it the same way regardless)

 >- You must reasonably believe that the property cannot be protected or
 >  recovered by any other means, *or* that the use of force other than
 >  deadly force to protect or recover the property would expose you or
 >  another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Well, let's see, this paragraph relates to the person's beliefs about
the criminal and the possibility of recovering property. All that's
required is "all criminals are violent and carry guns. Just look at
TV, the news, not the shows." and "If I shot him, my chances of recorvering
my property are pretty much 100%. If I let him go, the possibility drops
to nil." (The last is really true, as we even knew where the property
that was taken was stored, but the cops could do *nothing* without proof,
and even told us that we would be arrested if we trespassed on the property
where our stoled property was stored. How about that for a travesty
of justice?)

>As you can see, this law doesn't create a defense for you if you decide
>to shoot someone who's walking away from your house and "might" have
>taken something. Use of force has its legal limits, and use of deadly force
>has very strict limitations.

That would seem a bit paranoid, don't you think? Anyway, there had to
be some limitations, such as some proof of criminal intent or something,
as if there wasn't, you could shoot anyone ffor any reason and claim
that there was some criminal intent taking place. Shooting someone who
is in the commission of a crime *is* perfectly legal, however.

Remember, I didn't write them...

Ron

Potassium Benzoate included as a preserver.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion