From: johnsd2@vccnw01.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Macintosh bigots
Reply-To: johnsd2@vccnw01.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 00:53:35 GMT

[to comp.sys.mac.advocacy folx: I crossposted my followup over to
 you since I thought you might be interesting in this little topic
 on comp.os-ms-window.advocacy. Join the fun! :) ]

In article K5H@news.cso.uiuc.edu, rvenkate@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Ravikuma Venkateswar) writes:
>
>Just look at the title.

I did, that's why Im following up.

> I mean, I don't know - are their computers _so_
>superior to IBMs?

Yup. Didn't you know? :)

> Are they _so_ user friendly that an IBM user would be
>able to use the "intuitive" interface instantly,

Nope, nor can anyone else over this. Even the Macintosh UI
takes a little learning. And it may take considerably unlearning,
if you are used to straight DOS.

> never to go back to a command prompt

Yup.

> or the "inferior hacks" represented by OS/2 2.0 and 
>Windows?

Windows is clearly an inferior hack in many respects (but it
can run DOS progs, which no Mac can do adequately). OS/2 has
its good points and its bad points. Id like its multitasking
and some of the WPS's features on my Mac, but not its hardware
requirements or bugs or filesystem confusion (etc).

> Is it so much easier to program than the "inferior hacks"?

Its a great deal easier than Windows to program, mainly due
to using a 32-bit address space; but OS/2 also does this and
has some other points too. (but then I dont know much about
OS/2 progging. So I cant say forsure)

> Is it really that much faster?

That depends. Its slower than DOS, anyway. Beyond that
Your Milage May Vary. It tends to do graphics task quickly, but
computation slowly.

> Are Macintoshes the future of computing? NOT!!

Right. Macintoshes are the PRESENT of computing. It just
took you PCheads a long time to figure it out. :)

I dont know what the future is. Ask me when we get there. :)

>The following lines address Windows because the bulk of their arguments
>address it - OS/2 is not as well known (??) and is beneath recognition (???).

OS/2 is not very relevant due to lack of usage, and lack of software.
Its also a much harder thing to argue agains, as it has significant
advantages.

>Windows is slow, kludgy, and crash-prone.
>- have you ever compared something like Mathematica 2.1 for Windows
>- running on a 386/25 w/10MB and Mathematica 2.1 on a Mac IIsi with 10 MB?

No, I haven't. How is this relevant? We were talking about windows,
not Mathematica? 

>- have you ever seen a Macintosh crash because of lack of heap space

No, but I have seen spontaneously quit apps due to this. Apparently they
didn't catch the memFullErr or the NULL Handle, and they didn't
isntall a grow zone handler. Go figure.

>- (nicely demonstrated on 3MB machines with a screen saver, left to
>- (themselves for about 50 minutes.

Never seen this.

>The Macintosh OS is more user-friendly.
>- have you ever tried getting help on _anything_?

Turn on the balloon help and point at something. Yeah, I know,
its a blasted noisy mode, but you imply that there is NO facility.
Aint' so. It needs work tho. I feel Windows and OS/2 have better systems,
tho quite differently oriented.

The Macintosh was desigend not to need them however. I generally do not,
for what that's worth. If the help system is an critical component
of your system, there's something wrong.

>The Macintosh GUI can do anything that a command-line interface can, so
>you don't need one.
>- have you ever tried writing a script file?

No, but then you wouldn't use a CLI for this either- you'd
use a blasted editor. There's no need to couple a scripting
system to a CLI. Such things are availiable for the Mac, but are
not standard (Alas).

>
>You really know when you're dealing with a hard-core bigot when they start
>complaining about the 3D buttons.

Hey, watch it with that stawman, will ya!

> Face it, kids - Apple is sitting pretty,

That's true.

>not because they make good computers (which they might or might not - it's
>not the argument here)

If not this, what?

> - it's because of the enormous number of bigots out there.

We prefer the term "Mac Enthusiast" thank you. :)

In any case, I suspect you are thinking of ANY Mac user as
a "bigot" (otherwise your comment makes no sence). In that
case, it applies to, well, anyone.
 
>Eventually, though, they can't win.

Not sure what you mean by "win". They are doing quite well, so far.
I doubt they can ever grab a majority of the PC market again,
but then even IBM can't seem to pull that one off these days. They
have managed a plurality, or rather had last I checked. (which
was several months ago, things may have changed)

> With cables costing more than
>$50 vs. $5, with top-of-the-line computers having more than a 50% price
>difference, what corporate customer is going to stick after a few years.

This stuff has been forcing Apple to lower its prices, and it will
(hopefully) continue to do so. Apple still has juicy margins,
or so I understand. (but this info is also old, so use with a bucket
of salt)

>Considering when Windows NT and OS/2 x.0 come out on the Macintosh, and
>(maybe) people start using them, they'll find out what they've been missing.

Maybe you shouldn't assume we are as ignorant as you think. We know
what we are missing, but think what we are getting is worth it. And we
hope (and expect) to get these missing things in time.

As far as I know, there are no plans to port NT or OS/2 to the MacOs. It
sounds like a hell of a PR job to make that work anyway. But we'll see.

Anyway, one of the Macintoshes biggest charms is that you do not need
to think about such trivialities as what OS to use. You just get a
computer. (Well, that was the origional idea. Now you get a computer,
monitor, keyboard, etc.. Still, its better at this than the PC)
A great many people do not really care about these techy issues.

>If anyone has more gripes with the Mac, post away! And maybe even cross post
>this to a Mac group :-)

An excellent idea. You wont mind if I crosspost to comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
as it seems quite appropriate to me.

>Flames to \dev\null .

Aw, dang. What a waste of good flamage!

>-- 
>Ravikumar Venkateswar
>rvenkate@uiuc.edu
>
>A pun is a no' blessed form of whit.

Dangnabit, how dare you slander puns, my favorite form of humor! :)

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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