HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Considering 4'33''
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:09:09 GMT

In article <1eb333INNes8@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal) writes:
>In article <1992Nov17.133512.21761@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> rwd4f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rob Dobson) writes:
>>> ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal) writes:
>>>I think John Cage was a poser.  Go ahead, flame me,
>>                                           ^^^^^^^^
>>>but you'll never convince me that he had any real talent.

>>Cant resist an open invitation like that. Whether or not you think he has
>>'real' talent, how many people will be discussing Adam Ronthal on a worldwide
>>network months after your death? 

>	That simply isn't the point.  Yes, I too could waste my time and 
>everybody elses by playing with a bunch of cheap radios and make plenty
>of waves.  

Gee -- radio waves!

Now, what makes you say that he wasted his time?  What makes you say that
he wasted everybody else's?  Many of the people who have heard his music --
are you one of them, by the way? -- did *not* consider their time wasted.
(Read _Silence_ by John Cage, and look for the story about the island in
Puget Sound...)

I think you don't have your facts straight.

>I still wouldn't have any talent, but people would no doubt think
>it was really really cool, and discuss it for months, if not years after my
>death.  

In your dreams.  Most avant-garde artists are forgotten minutes after
their shows close.  Cage, of course, didn't simply "play around with
cheap radios" (something by Nakamichi would have been better?); he 
wrote hundreds of pieces, none of which you know, judging by what you
write.


>It wouldn't change tha fact that the noise I wrote was complete
>foolishness.

Shouldn't that read, "the noise I have just written"?  

I expect your opinions of Atlas Eclipticalis, HPSCHD, and Europera II
by return post.  You *do* know these pieces, roght?

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbrooks@penge.osf.org (David Brooks)
Subject: Tubas (was Re: Euphoniums (was: Tubas))
Organization: Open Software Foundation
	<JIM.92Nov18142319@fuji.eng.yale.edu>
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:19:21

jim@fuji.eng.yale.edu (James J. Szinger) writes:

> I still think that 'euphonia' is more euphemistic.  By the way,
> what the plural of 'tuba'?  'Tubae'?

The Italian plural, Tube.  Surprisingly, the tuba is one of the few
feminine instruments -- um, perhaps it isn't so surprising, considering its
players are mostly men, and what they do with it.

Others: viola, arpa, tromba (trumpet), and some of the battery (cassa,
campana, castagnetta, frustra).  You don't score a viola solo; it's a sola.
--
David Brooks					dbrooks@osf.org
Open Software Foundation			uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Allberall und ewig blauen licht die Fernen!  Ewig... ewig... earwig... O!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: #1 Brahms & Wagner #2 Brahms & Rachmaninov
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:46:41 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.150222.7672@digi.lonestar.org> gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
>
>Well, now it looks like I have to check out Gilels/Jochum and Moravec B-flat
>and D-minor. There is indeed a wonderful abundance of good recordings.

I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned my own favourite Brahms 1: the
Curzon/LSO/Szell on London; this performance outclasses all others I
have ever heard. Incidentally, a pianist friend once told me that
Curzon used the "alternative" version of the trills in the first
movement. Can anyone expand on this.
[....]
>I once heard a radio performance of the D-minor that knocked my socks
>off.  I didn't know who it was, but I thought that it must be Rubinstein
>having grown thirty years younger and overcome all his technical deficiencies.
>All through the first and second movements I couldn't believe that anyone
>could conceive the piece in so precicely the same way (yet it was clearly
>someone else, as the technique was so much stronger).  The last movement
>did not succeed as well.  It turned out to be Pollini.  I think I heard
>his recording of it later and did not end up buying it (partially due
>to other circumstances than the music).

Pollini's B flat is excellent, his D minor is disappointing.

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rdorocke@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (rob lawrence dorocke)
Subject: Re: Adagio for Strings
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:07:53 GMT

In article <BxyJsL.D5J@cs.columbia.edu> tait@cs.columbia.edu (Carl Tait) writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.162041.16617@midway.uchicago.edu>
>hcresnic@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>Yes, there are many. IMHO the best orchestrated version (as opposed to the 
>>piece as a part of Barber's String Quartet) is Bernstein's recording with 
>>the LA Philharmonic on Deutsche Grammophon.
>
>I agree; it's a tragic and moving interpretation.
>
>>The tempo of the recording on the Platoon is taken way too fast.
>
>Well, keep in mind that Bernstein's recording is unusually slow.
>Does ANYONE else's version last more than 10 minutes?  Toscanini
>took 6 or 7 minutes!
>
>Carl Tait
>

The EMI recording with the St. Louis Symphony and Leonard Slatkin is 9
minutes long.  The sound quality is GREAT (DDD) and also includes his
3 essays, Ov. to School for Scandal, and Medea's Dance of Vengeance.
Highly Recommended!!

Rob


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Subject: Re: Brahms Violin Concerto
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:08:14 GMT

In article <2B096B72.14703@news.service.uci.edu> josh@aris.ss.uci.edu (Josh Stern) writes:
>
>Yikes, DDD!  Neveu died in a plane crash, sometime in the late Forties I think,
>so she never made it into the LP era, let alone DDD.  

Somewhere near the Canaries, was it? I think Marcel Cerdan, the French
boxer and lover of Edith Piaf, died in the same plane, ca. 1949.



-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg)
Subject: Re: Cage's 4'33"
Originator: brad@buck
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:28:05 GMT


In article <1992Nov13.230934.15954@nuscc.nus.sg>, smoliar@argon.iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar) writes:

|> We have now had both frivolous (but probably well-intentioned) and serious
|> answers to this question.  I agree with Barry that we cannot really talk about
|> "best" here.  However, there is a recording which may be described as a
|> definitive attempt to reproduce David Tudor's first performance of the
|> work.  This is the performance by Gianni-Emilio Simonetti recorded by
|> Cramps (CRSCD 101) in Milan.  Simonetti has duplicated Tudor's practice
|> of raising the lowering the keyboard lid at the end of each movement, and
|> these sounds are audible.  Since the recording seems to have been made in
|> a studio, there is little ambient noise on the disc;  so you just take what
|> you get while you are listening.
|> -- 

I saw a video of a live performance of this piece. I think it was David
Tudor who performed it, but I'm not sure. In any event, he raised and
lowered the lid as you describe, but he also used a stop or pocket watch,
which he picked up and looked at periodically. 

The effect of the performance, as I was witnessing it, was determined
largely by the film editor, because there were frequent shifts of view,
from the stage to various locations in the audience. The views were not
always static, frequently panning across an area and zooming in and out.
Because of the minimal but definite activity, both choreographed (on the
stage) and spontaneous (in the audience), plus the camera activity for
the delayed audience, and the minimal but definite sounds and dynamic
sights resulting from these activities, it really became a performance,
taking on a life of its own.

For me, this would have to be the best recorded performance.

Ciao, BK
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: sweaver3@mach1.wlu.ca (scott weaver 9209 U)
Subject: Re: RVW Tuba Concerto
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:41:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.020453.16253@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael J Valinis) writes:
>Concerning Ralph Vaughan Williams Tuba Concerto, it was recorded at least once
>that I know of, with John Fletcher as soloist with the London Symphony 
>Orchestra, Andre Previn conducting.  It was coupled with Symphony #5 and Three 
>Portraits from The England of Elizabeth.  A very nice album with a good variety
>of RVW works.  Some of you folks may flame Previn, but he does good RVW.  The 
>album, BTW, is on an RCA cassette 6782-4-RG.  I don't know if it's still 
>available or if it's ever been rereleased on CD.  If anyone knows, I'd be 
>interested in hearing....
>-- 
>*>   Michael J. Valinis   -=+<*>+=-   mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   <*
>*>=>  "Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you  <=<*
>*>+>=> don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." -Charlie Parker <=<+<*
>*>=>+>=>+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+<=<+<=<*

There is also an excellent recording of the RVW Tuba Concerto; Sir Adrian
Bouldt (sp?) conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, and featuring Patrick
Childe on the tuba.  Very tasty recording.  It is coupled with RVW Symphony
Number 6.  Sorry, I don't know the CD number off hand.  If anyone wants to
know, mail me, and I'll get the number from home.
-- 
Scott B. Weaver		Internet: sweaver3@mach1.wlu.ca
"Dream Weaver"		UUCP: ...!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!mach1!sweaver3
Patience comes to 	Snail: 2C-264 Regina Street North
those who wait...	       Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2J 3B7
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: davidu@space.mit.edu (David)
Subject: Shaw non-contra Brahms
Keywords: Shaw, Brahms
Organization: MIT Center for Space Research
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:49:46 GMT


	[I forgot to add one thing to my former posting.  Perhaps we should
allow Shaw to have the final say regarding Brahms.  The following words were
penned about four decades after the ones quoted prior.  Although this
reassessment was spurred by the author's surprise at the viciousness of an old
review of the First Piano Concerto, we can perhaps infer that this statement 
applies to Shaw's change of heart in general regarding Brahms' music.]


   "[My] hasty (not to say silly) description of Brahms's music will, I hope, 
   be a warning to critics who know too much.  In every composer's work there 
   are passages that are part of the common stock of music of the time; and 
   when a new genius arises, and his idiom is still unfamiliar and therefore 
   even disagreeable, it is easy for a critic who knows that stock to 
   recognize its contributions to the new work and fail to take in the 
   original complexion put upon it.  Beethoven  denounced Weber's Euryanthe 
   overture as a string of diminished sevenths.  I had not yet got hold of 
   the idiosyncratic Brahms.  I apologize."   
 
					-Bernard Shaw, 1936




							Dave

-- 
David T S Um ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MIT Center for Firmament (Space) Research
davidu@Space.MIT.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cambridge MA ~~~~~~~~ Tel: (617) 253-9342
************** The heavens declare the glory of God; **************************
****************** and the firmament sheweth His handiwork! **** (Ps 19:1, KJV)
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Brahms
Date: 19 Nov 1992 13:04:32 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

George Mulford (mulford@bach.udel.edu) wrote:
: Does anyone know _Jean Christophe_ by Romain Rolland?  Can anyone explain
: to me why its eponymous protagonist is so antagonistic toward Brahms?  Is
: he modeled on Richard Strauss, and did Strauss feel that way?  Does
: Christophe change his mind at the end?  (I confess I didn't make it all
: the way.)  Did Rolland himself feel the same way?  Does anyone care?

I'll have to check on the book I have to see if this is exactly as I
remeber it, but I have a report of a conversation with Strauss
deploring both the form and the development of Brahms. The old story of
"if only Brahms hadn't been classicaly obsessed, he would have written
great music".

I can't even remember if I kept the book. It was called something like
"The Problems of Music", and I went through it disagreeing with
everything, when I got to the chapter on "The problem of jewishness in
music"! Talked about the racial stereotypes as demonstrable in music, the
loftiness of Strauss and the meanness and shallownes of Mendelsohnn and
Mahler. I then thought - uhuh - and put the book down unfinished.

The conversation was definitely reported as verbatim, but the context
makes it open the doubt.

The question is whether I turfed it out or filed it with other offensive
books.
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Speaking of the Solti Ring...
Date: 17 Nov 92 16:08:18 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <Bxu6tA.A72@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> smitra@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Sami Mitra) writes:
>>
>
>The full Solti cycle is available on Decca in England
>at mid-price...but you have to pay in pounds. I don't
>think it is available at less than full price in this
>country, yet. However you can buy them individually at
>half the list price through the BMG cd club. Or wait
>for the BIG sale at your neighbourhood Wagner dealer!
>

I'm 99% sure that London has the Solti cycle (in an 18 CD set) at
mid-price.  In fact, lately I've seen it even cheaper because
they have some boxes tagged for the price of 15 discs with 3
thrown in for free.  (So, now's your chance to make that Wagner
lover happy this holiday season.)

John D.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: sweaver3@mach1.wlu.ca (scott weaver 9209 U)
Subject: Re: Baritones (was: Euphoniums)
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 16:10:28 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.232245.17626@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael J Valinis) writes:
>NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
>
>Baritones and euphoniums are NOT - repeat NOT - the same instrument.  Band
>directors only use "baritone" for both because cheap baritones are generally
>cheaper than cheap euphoniums, baritones are more common with younger players
>because the narrower bore means that less air is required, and people who write
>music for lower grade bands generally label the parts "baritone".
>
>For thse of you who may not know the difference: Euphoniums have a larger bore
>than baritones, usually a larger mouthpiece (roughly bass-trombone size as
>opposed to trombone size for baritones, and a mouthpiece that is more
>funnel-shaped (similar to a French horn mouthpiece) rather than cup-shaped
>(like a trumpet or cornet mouthpiece).  The larger bore and more flowing
>mouthpiece configuration give a euphonium a much rounder, bigger tone.  Of

Euphoniums are also conical, like a tuba, (i.e. the bore gets larger and larger
as you progress down the lead-pipe.  Baritones are cylindrical, like an alto
horn (until you pass through all of the valves, and start flaring for the
bell).  And in general (though not always so), euphoniums often have 4
valves, a baritone usually only has 3.   
(the 4th valve on a euph played with the first finger of the LEFT hand.)

>-- 
>*>   Michael J. Valinis   -=+<*>+=-   mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   <*
>*>=>  "Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you  <=<*
>*>+>=> don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." -Charlie Parker <=<+<*
>*>=>+>=>+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+<=<+<=<*

-- 
Scott B. Weaver		Internet: sweaver3@mach1.wlu.ca
"Dream Weaver"		UUCP: ...!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!mach1!sweaver3
Patience comes to 	Snail: 2C-264 Regina Street North
those who wait...	       Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2J 3B7
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel)
Subject: re: Bernstein conducts Bruckner, Sibelius, and the "Final Concert"
Organization: Visual
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 17:04:54 GMT

John Grabowski writes:

>I have to preface this by saving I'm no great fan of Bernstein, but while
>we're talking about his Vienna-DG recordings, particularly the live ones,
>I'd like to mention his recording of the Beethoven Op. 131 String Quartet for
>full string orchestra, from about ten years ago.  Stunning reading, gorgeous,
>other-wordly...one of the prizes of my collection.

And it's just been reissued, this time accompanied by another Beethoven
Quartet transcription for string orchestra - I think it's the last 
quartet.

Rob
From: brad.dekoter@travel.com (Brad Dekoter) 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: MOZART HELP PLEASE!
Date: 20 Nov 92 15:58:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Travel Online / St. Louis Online - St. Louis, MO
Reply-To: brad.dekoter@travel.com (Brad Dekoter) 

 
I want to enter a CD giveaway contest but to do so I must answer the
following questions: 
 
1. What year did Mozart die? 
 
 
2. What is the largest selling classical recording in history? 
 
 
3. Who wrote the "Elvira Madigan" theme? 
 
 
Any help would be most appreciated. 
 
Bradley 
 

---
 . KWQ/2 1.0C . OS/2 in '92!
                                                        
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Subject: Re: Re: representative classical list
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:47:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.174035.15561@math.ucla.edu> pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh) writes:
>Another Reich piece which I think listeners should look out for is
>called 'Different Trains'. To me this is the most moving piece I have
>heard in the last 10-15 years. Anyone else heard this piece?

I sincerely intend no offense or disrespect to anyone with this response.
I do understand the seriousness of the subject matter of the music.  But I
must say that I found this piece perhaps the most insultingly self-serving
pieces of indulgence that has ever been at all accepted as "classical" or
"serious" music.  There is a lot of "classical" music that I don't like,
but don't feel I understand enough to pass any kind of judgement.  But this
is one of the very rare pieces that I don't like and *do* feel I understand
enough to pass judgement: crap.

-chris
From: pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The worst composer ever
Date: 22 Nov 92 01:03:54 GMT
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department

In article <g8FkuB7w165w@student.business.uwo.ca> r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith) writes:
>It's a poll--who do you think is the worst famous composer of them all?
>
>Let me start it off. I think it's Delius. Then again maybe it's Arthur 
>Bliss.
>
Tough question. Do you think Bliss is all that famous? I agree he is
pretty bad. I don't think Delius is that bad although I don't think he
wrote many 'masterpieces'. Personally if I think a composer is bad I don't
listen to it. How are you defining worst? The composer I like the least
or worst in musical originality/construction?

If it's the former I'd have to say Haydn (sorry, I know I'm going to
get flamed big time on that one).
If it's the latter then

GRIEG !!

Some of his writing is atrocious. e.g. the orchestration of the piano
concerto. There's a cello sonata which is dreadfully written (great tunes
of course but ghastly construction).

David
--
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
   David Pugh,  UCLA,  CA         |     Hot Dog, Jumping Frog
   pugh@math.ucla.edu             |     Albuquerque  -  Prefab Sprout
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Tuba
Date: 17 Nov 92 16:27:35 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <Bxv3uC.JBv@dcs.ed.ac.uk> la@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Lewis Alderton) writes:
>Some wierdo composer wrote a Tuba concerto. Anybody know
>who he was and what he called it.

That was no weirdo!!!!!  That was Ralph Vaughan-Williams!
At least, as far as I know, that's the most famous.
The piece is called (remarkably enough) the Concerto for Tuba
and Orchestra in F minor.  (No nickname "Tubby" that 
I know of - and, please don't give any record companies
this marketing idea.)

[Tuba trivia: In early December every year, at the Music
Center in LA, about 90% of Southern California's tuba players
get together for what is known as Merry Tuba Christmas or
Happy Tuba Hannakuh.  It's an hour of Christmas Carols and
Hannukuh songs performed on Tubas.  Believe me - you haven't
lived until you've heard 150 Tubas performing
"Good King Wenceslaus".  So, is such stuff done in other 
parts of the world??]


John D.
From: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Florence Foster Jenkins
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:59:29 GMT
Reply-To: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu

>>
>>I should recommend the Scratch Orchestra and the Portsmouth Sinfonia,
>>who were to the symphonic reportoire what FFJ was to opera. Their Hall
>>of the Mountain King, William Tell Overture and Hallelujiah CHorus are
>>etched into my memory.
>>
[...] Cardew's experiments,
>on the other hand, were intentionally designed to turn our perceptions of
>"concert career" on its head, with respect to both performers and audience.
[...]
>-- 

Are any Scratch Orchestra recordings available (on CD)? 

Thanks,
Bill


+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Subject: Re: mozart/handel - messiah
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:13:54 GMT

roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
|> Messiah is scored quite sparsely by Handel's standards.  Little for the 
|> trumpets to do; no flutes or bassoons, though one could certainly add
|> a bassoon or two to some basslines for timbreal variety.  I think it's
|> the smallest band of any of the oratorios.

Might that have something to do with the sheer physical challenge of
writing the piece down in the legendary 21 days?

I don't know if this time limit was externally imposed: if so, he might
have used more resources given his druthers.
-- 
David Brooks					dbrooks@osf.org
Open Software Foundation			uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Allberall und ewig blauen licht die Fernen!  Ewig... ewig... ewig...
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical