HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Poll Results (Finally!)
Date: 12 Sep 92 16:54:18 GMT


Here's the long-awaited results of the informal poll I gave.  I
didn't receive as many responses as I thought I would...


1)  If you could have any handgun you wanted, what would it be?

Action Type: 9 chose a semi-auto, 3 chose a revolver, and no one
chose 'other.'

Manufacturer: Beretta, Colt and Sig Sauer got 2 each, while Sig
 Sig, Glock, S&W, Ruger, Dan Wesson and Browning got 1 each.  I
considered Sig separate from Sig Sauer; you may decide otherwise.

Caliber choices:  5 chose 9mm, 2 chose .45, 2 chose .357 Magnum,
and.40S&W, .44 Magnum and .38 Super got 1 each.


2)  If you could have any rifle you wanted, what would it be?

Action Type:  6 wanted a bolt action, 3 wanted a semi-auto, 2 wanted
a full-auto, and 1 didn't know what he wanted.

Caliber:  .308 leads the pack with 6 votes, .223 receive 3, and
6mmPPC, .30-06 and "don't know" received 1 each.


3)  If you could have any shotgun you wanted, what would it be?

Action Type:  4 chose a semi-auto, 3 chose a pump, 2 chose a double,
and 1 chose 'other' - actually a Sauer 12ga/6mm drilling, 1 chose
'don't know' and one chose none.

Gauge:  Everyone chose the 12.

Manufacturer:  Mossberg and Benelli got 3 votes each, Browning got 2,
Winchester and the Sauer drilling got 1 each.  1 said "don't know"
and 1 said "none."

4)  If you could only own one firearm of any type, what gun
    would you choose?  Why?

Type:  5 preferred a rifle, 4 would take a pistol, and 3 would
take the shotgun.

To be more exact, here's the list:  FN-FAL, Marlin lever-action
in .44 Magnum, Colt M16A1, Sig-Sauer P226, Benelli 500 M1,
Remington 100 Trap, Winchester M52, Benelli Super 90, Colt
Series 80 stainless Commander with Bar-sto barrel and Novak
custom touches, a Stoner(!), Desert Eagle in .357 and finally,
a Ruger Redhawk.

Now for my own personal answers, not included in the above data.

Handgun  - I'd love to own a Sig P-210 in any of the variations.
           I also wouldn't mind a Colt Python.
Rifle    - Haven't given it much thought.  Perhaps a Browning
           Stainless Stalker in .308, but I'm sure I would
           take one of the higher priced rifles I'm not familiar
           with right now.  8-)
Shotgun  - I used to own a 1937 vintage Browning Auto-5 in 16 gauge.
           I wish I still had it.
Only one - I'd like a T/C Contender with the full complement of
           barrels, calibers and grips/stocks.

Of course, ask me tomorrow and my opinions may change.


Rob
From: Sproul@sproul.sproul.com (Mark Sproul)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: M16A2 barrel wearing out prematurely?
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:25:06 GMT
Organization: Sproul Consulting



In article <9209111726.AA00896@nuc.Utah.univel.COM>, Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh) writes:
# Hi folks,
# 
# I've heard that US Army M16A2 barrels are wearing out prematurely with
# NATO SS109 (US M855) ammunition due to its 1x7 barrel twist.  I've also
# heard that the 1x7 twist was originally designed to handle the M856
# tracer round (which has longer bullet than the M855 round).  Can anyone
# confirm this?
# 
# Can the 1x9 twist effectively handle the SS109 round?  What about heavier
# bullets such as the 69-grainers?  Can the 1x9 stabilize these too?
# 
# What is the exact weight of the SS109?  I have seen 62-grain and read of
# 63-grain!
# 
# Thanks muchly,
# 
# -tt
# 
I am not sure about the wearing out, but the 1x9 twist is the OPTIMUM
twist for the 69 grain bullet.  This is from Seirra.  The 1x7 twist
will handle the new 80 grain VLD (Very Low Drag) bullets.  They have
been used successfully at 1000 yards.  The minimum twist for the 80s
is 8".  They make 70, 75, and 80 grain VLD bullets.  The 75s do NOT
work in a 20" 1x9 twist barrel.  They DO work in a 28" 1x9 barrel.

I am quite sure that the 1x7 twist was designed for BOTH the SS109
and the tracer round.

Yes, the 1x9 can handle the SS-109.

I have always heard that the SS109 was 63 grains.

I have been shooting the AR-15 in competition for 9 years durring
which time I have shot almost 20,000 rounds of the 69 Seirra bullets.

-------------------------------------
Mark Sproul - KB2ICI
From: nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon Bullets
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:28:41 GMT
Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara

In article <2924748208.2.p00056@psilink.com> p00056@psilink.com (Faustus) writes:
##FROM:   Kenneth D. Whitehead <kdw@icd.ab.com>
...
##Well, it sounds like the Black Talons should work, but...
##
##What happens when you dust a bad guy and the prosecutor finds out about this
##b-a-a-a-d ammo you've been using?  Wouldn't you find yourself in the same
##potential fix as the guy who used special handloads?

It would be much easier to defend the use of commercially loaded
ammunition than "special" handloads.  A plain-Jane .38 Special round-nose
lead handload probably wouldn't generate too much excitement in the
prosecutor's office, but a pumped-up-velocity "exploding hollowpoint dum-
dum" with X's cut into it {:^) probably would.  However, using almost any
commercially loaded rounds can be defended, if you know your stuff and
have done the research necessary to explain your choice in a rational
manner.

#Rather be judged by tweleve than carried by six...
#Faustus


Jerry Roe
jrr@nsc.nsc.com		...!{sun,pyramid,decwrl)!nsc!jrr
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Slam fire with an SKS
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:28:48 GMT
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC

In <920909133711.202087c0@FRED.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL> SYSTEMM@FRED.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL (System Manager Wuest) writes:



#   Then my friend loaded 3 rounds, and started to fire off-hand.  On the first
#   shot: BOOM! BOOM!.  He looked surprised!  I told him to safe the weapon and
#   lets take a look.  Sure enough, there was only one round in the chamber,
#   none in the magazine.  We found the first hole in the target easily enough,
#   but had to do some searching for the second.

#   I post this, as the ongoing thread on SKS (re: AK-47, Mini-30, etc) inquired
#   about slam-fires.  This was my first experience with one of these, and the
#   gun was new (and unfired) to the best of of our knowledge.   I have a friend 
#   here at work who has fired 100's, maybe a 1000 rounds thru an SKS, with 
#   never a problem.

I have been hearing stories of quality problems with the Norinco SKSs,
some of them concern the trigger group.

One story, told to me first hand, had a unloaded but cocked Norinco SKS
drop the hammer just by being picked up. One loud click, and several
people happy it was unloaded.

Get a real soviet SKS, not the chinese SKS.



-- 
Greg Booth BSc                        | Diligentia-Vis-Celeritas
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS    |  	Incolumitas
Motorola Mobile Data Division         | 
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com cgb003@email.comm.mot.com
From: davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Target materials for armor piercing ammunition?
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:28:28 GMT

The gong at our range has been taking a beating lately with armor piercing
and/or steel cored ammunition.

Rather than prohibiting this type of ammo, which would be difficult to
enforce, I would like to recommend alternate target materials that would be
more fun to shoot and which would show off the capabilities of this type of
ammo.

Perhaps someone could post how this problem has been solved before?

David Post    davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: tt1m+@andrew.cmu.edu (Troy Franklin Tinsman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: High Standard 10A shotgun
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:51:05 GMT

#	Can anyone tell me anything about the High Standard M10a
#(orB) shotgun?  This beast is a bullpup semi-automatic shotgun with
#a rotating yoke that can be either braced on the shoulder or along
#the forearm.  There is also a flashlight mount on the top of the
#weapon.  I think that the M10 has rifle-style sights.  Oh, it has a
#five round tubular magazine and is 12 gauge.
 
#	#Who makes this gun?  I don't recognize the name High
#Standard.  Has anyone ever seen one of these for sale?  Better yet,
#has anyone ever *shot* one?  I'm not seriously thinking of buying
#one (yet), but it is the d*mnedest looking thing...


Have you even been able to find one. "The Gun Digest Book of Assault
Weapons" Describes it as introduced in 1968, and died out from lack of
acceptance due to it's "Star Wars"-ish appearance. Plus it was
apparently sold only to law enforcement agencies and to big corporations
for their security forces. It sounds to me like it'd be rare and any
model you found would be 20-24 years old. 

If you know of a dealer selling them, please tell me. When I read about
it, it interested me but the article seemed to say they were pretty much
extinct.

                                                                        FRANK
From: biocca@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Alan K Biocca)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet casting residue
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:44:36 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <1306@pdxvme.pdx.csd.mot.com> brian@pdx.csd.mot.com (Brian Vandewettering) writes:

...

#1. Furnace - Bottom pour or scooper?  Is the cheapie from Lee Precision
#   any good?

The Lee furnace is extremely serviceable.  Definitely a 'best buy'.

#2. Lube sizers - Is there any difference between the brands?  What about
#   the lube heaters that I've seen advertized in Midway's catalog?  Looks
#   like a hot plate which you bolt your lube sizer to.  Will the Lee sizer
#   and liquid allox work with conventional style bullets or do they only 
#   work with their micro-groove design.

The best lube-sizer is none.  Obtain molds that cast the correct size and
use tumble-on lube for the least cost and best accuracy.

#3. Moulds - nose pour?  Who's are best?  Aluminum or Iron?

Lee molds are serviceable.  Aluminum molds are easy to use, light, and 
get up to temperature quickly.  They can be scratched easily, but don't
rust.  Cast Iron molds are finicky to get going and heat slowly, but are
basically indestructible short of rust.  I use aluminum Lee molds for
low quantity bullets and cast iron RCBS' or Lymans for high volume uses.

#5. Output - Let's say you have a 2 cavity mould.  How many good quality
#   bullets would you produce in an hour?  I realize that sizing is a 
#   seperate operation AFTER THE BULLETS COOL.

I generally get about 200 excellent bullets per hour at a moderate rate.
I'm pretty picky - I think that number could be doubled if I rushed and
accepted some iffy castings.

#6. Ventilation - Would a fan placed in a window next to the casting
#   pot provide enough ventilation?

It might.  Depends on the fan, etc.

Alan K Biocca
AKBiocca@lbl.gov
WB6ZQZ
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hand-loads for defens
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:39:14 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <tmi.714982020@well.sf.ca.us> tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler) writes:
#
#	My best advice is to learn what to do and what to avoid doing
#prior to, during, and following a deadly confrontation, and
#incorporate those things into you lifestyle with extreme diligence. Do
#not make statements, generally and specifically never to the police in
#connection with such an incident until you have first consulted a
#lawyer knowledgeable in both criminal and weapons law.

Sound advice. However, (sigh) the local chief of police advises that
immediately demanding a lawyer always looks suspicious to investigators
and frequently causes them to dig deeper into what they otherwise might
accept as an open and shut case of justified homicide. Shootings here
don't automatically go to trial. He advises privately that after you have 
determined that the perp is dead, call the police. When the officer arrives, 
say only that the perp had a crazed look in his eyes, advanced toward you 
screaming "I'm going to kill you!", and that you fired until he *stopped*,
don't say until he was dead. *I* don't advocate saying this, unless it's 
true, but that's the way the *local* police operate.  Naturally that wouldn't 
be a good idea if the victim had 15 or 16 rounds in the back while lying 
halfway inside the jimmied door of your car in the parking lot of Kmart. 1/2:-)
You're likely going to jail for a long time in that case.

Homicide, justified or not, is always extremely serious. Don't lie,
or at least don't get caught in a stupid lie, don't volunteer extraneous 
information, and most of all be sure you know what's happening. A seemingly 
innocent off the cuff remark could land you in prison, or in Georgia, in 
the electric chair. Understand how your local police operate, it varies much 
more widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction than the law does.  Talking 
openly to the investigating officer may be exactly the right thing to do in 
some places and some cases. In others it may be really dumb. I'd advise 
consulting a good *local* criminal lawyer *before* you even think about 
*using* deadly force. That could be the smartest investment you ever make.


Gary
From: mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on Baby Eagle??
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:20 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX


In article <9209082218.AA20983@dvorak.amd.com> mbehrens@barqs.amd.com (Mikael Behrens) writes:
#In article <83kT02pA20fw01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> mws20@ccc.amdahl.com (Mark  
#Sechrest) writes:
#| I was in a sporting goods store last night and saw a new gun- the Baby
#| Eagle. Does anyone have any info on this gun? Have you seen any reviews
#| of it? Any info appreciated!

#I believe this is the CZ-75 clone that IMI sells.  They advertise it as kind  
#of a "baby" Desert Eagle. I think it comes as a kit that you can configure to
#fire both 9mm and .41 Action Express.  They probably also have a version for  
#40 Smith & Wesson now.

Actually, the "Baby Eagle" is now what used to be the Jericho model pistol,
if I'm not mistaken, and it was also available from IMI.  It looked a lot
like a Desert Eagle anyway (check the shape of the front of the gun).  I don't
think any redesign was involved, essentially just a name change.  Why they
did it, I'm not sure, maybe just because of the popularity of the DE....


Mike Ruff
U.T. Austin
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Target materials for armor piercing ammunition?
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:12:02 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Sep11.041702.15555@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
#In article <9209101738.AA28541@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com> davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com (David Post) writes:
##The gong at our range has been taking a beating lately with armor piercing
##and/or steel cored ammunition.
##
##Rather than prohibiting this type of ammo, which would be difficult to
##enforce, I would like to recommend alternate target materials that would be
##more fun to shoot and which would show off the capabilities of this type of
##ammo.
##
##Perhaps someone could post how this problem has been solved before?
#
#One of our guys rummaged up an 18" by 24" piece of armor steel for our
#gong.  It's been out at 300 yards for some time now (4 years?) and has
#only had a couple of the corners chipped off.  This stuff is amazing - 
#about 3/8" thick and really takes a beating.
#

One idea - Richard Davis (founder of Second Chance) offers a service
to the propane distributors in Michigan.  The bottles have a finite
(D.O.T. regs et al) life and must be disposed of after having had holes
drilled in them to prevent them from being used for compressed gas
storage thereafter.  Davis hauls them out to his back range where
the bottles become targets for all kinds of armor piercing ammo.

BDW
From: weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Help Cleaning Brass.
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:16:08 GMT


-----

I am fairly new to handloading, and I need some information on brass cleaning.
I plan on buying a vibratory case cleaner, big enough to hold around 500
rounds of handgun brass (9mm and .45 ACP).

Which cleaners do you like or dislike?  Which companys are good or bad
to deal with?

I'm currently planning to buy a Dillon cleaner; they have a new smaller 
cleaner for about $60.  I'm very satisfied with their customer support, and 
it has a lifetime guarantee.

What kind of media and polish should I use?  A friend used "Brasso" which
can be found in most grocery stores.  Should I pay more for specialty
cleaners?

Any experiance out there with homemade media separators?

Are there any good alternatives to using vibratory cleaners?  No - my wife
won't let me put my brass in the washing machine. (never ask first).

Thanks for any help.  I'll post a summary in a week or two.

     --- Dan

------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Weed                             weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co. - Houston
          "My comments are my own, not my employer's"
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: opinions on particular models
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:57:29 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot) writes:

#ME:  Taurus 60 with 4" barrel (.357 magnum)
#Her:  S&W 42 with 2" barrel (.38 special)

	I shot the 42 last week and I thought it was awful.  I normaly shoot
.45 ACP, but the S&W 42 .38 Special kicked far worse than any .45 
or .44 I tried that day.  With Win 110. gr +P ammo it was literally
a pain to shoot.

	The reason for this is the light weight of the gun due to the
alluminum frame.  It weighs 14 oz vs the 20 oz for the same gun made out
of stainless steel.  This presents two problems:  One- discomfort during
shooting and increased "kick".  Two- durability.  The gun will wear out
or break from enough use, especialy +P or +P+ ammo.   The S&W rep who
let me try the gun said it was already getting loose from one day of
shooting +P ammo.   The all stainless steel version of the same gun, 
however, will handle unlimited +P and +P+ use, according to the same
rep.

	My other complaint with the gun are those ridiculous oversized
rubber grips.  The whole point of getting a 5 shot .38 is to get something
as small as possible.   The neoprene grips entirely defeat the purpose,
of having a 5 shot snub, imo.   The grips are an attempt to make up for
the recoil caused by the light frame, which is an attempt to make the gun
more handy, but those same grips make it less handy.  I would just get the
stainless centenial with the small wood grips.   You can buy any grips you
want, though, so this isn't a major nit.

	One thing I don't fully understand, is how one gun an seem so much
worse than another, seemingly w/o regard to physics or reality.  For example,
I tried out a stainless Charter Arms .44 Special with Pachmyres, and it was
mild, imo.  Then I try out a S&W 42 with 110 gr +P, and it is a very sharp
unpleasant biting feel.   What is it?

	The gun is a good one to carry and not shoot, I suppose, because
of the very light weight.   As a gun to practice with, I would worry that
shooting this little biter may turn her off to shooting and remove any
pleasure that she may have taken in the activity.   One year ago, my 
Susan fired a Taurus .38 snub a few times, thought it kicked too hard
and wouldn't fire another revolver for a year, saying revolvers were bad
and she didn't like them.   Last week she tried, among other things, a
Taurus .44 Special, and not only liked it, but prefered it to all the
.38s she tried and said it was much more comfortable for her the the
S&W and Ruger .38 cal popguns.

	(there's the ".44s kick less than .38s" thing again.   I know
there has to be more to it than the weight of the guns, as it is not 
enough weight difference to account for it)

I would make sure she tries out your gun _first_, and that she gets 
plenty of practice with your gun, because the 42 is for carrying, not 
lots of fun plinking, from my small experience.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: PMC contact info?
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:55 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

Does someone have the phone number or address of PMC? I want
to call them and ask about their StarFire ammo. . . 
-Chris
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $650 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.
From: burens@4ccvw101.scg.hac.com (Mark Burens)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon Bullets
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:57:22 GMT
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA


In article <1992Sep2.194222.23828@icd.ab.com> kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:
##I've personally seen the demos on these; they are impressive.  IMHO
##they will prove to be more effective than other jhp's as "stoppers"
##and will change the Marshall statistics after a few years of field
##use results.  They expand into a wide jagged projectile and would leave
##a real mess for a surgeon to repair - if possible.
#
#Well, it sounds like the Black Talons should work, but...
#
#What happens when you dust a bad guy and the prosecutor finds out about this
#b-a-a-a-d ammo you've been using?  Wouldn't you find yourself in the same
#potential fix as the guy who used special handloads?


I don't understand why people are concerned about the legal
ramifications regarding the type, style, or name of the
ammunition they choose to defend their and their loved one's
lives with.  I myself would choose the must effective
ammunition availiable on the commercial market to defend
life and limb.  I am more concerned with what Mr. Bad Guy's
intentions are rathar that any prosecuting attorney and a
jury of my peer's.  Anyone out there who dos'nt feel the
same and want's to rid themselves of their tool's of 
destruction, drop me a line.  Besides, if your worried
about the after affects of "dusting" a bad guy then you
should'nt even qwn a gun in the first place.

Just my $0.02 worth.
From: rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: blanks
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:41:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.162037.10512@edsr.eds.com> edsr!kjs@uunet.UU.NET (Kevin Sedota) writes:
-> #Can anyone point me to a source on how to load blanks. The only
-> #manual I've got is the Speer and it doesn't mention it. I know 
-> #you need some kind of wadding but I'm not sure what it is.
-> 
-> This worries me somewhat.  Genuine blank pistols are designed ONLY for
-> blanks.  If however you're thinking of firing "blank" loads in a real
-> gun be advised that they are NOT by any means "safe", and should be
-> treated with the same respect as genuine manstopper loads.  (I couldn't
-> tell which kind of "blank" you meant, and figured better safe than sorry.)

Is it possible to even have blanks that work the action of an auto?  It
does not seem possible since, with a recoil operated mechanism, you would
need the mass of the bullet to create enough backward force.  Can someone
enlighten me?

Dana Rigg
Chandler, AZ
rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com