From: mjmh@crsa.bu.edu (Michael J M Holmes)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Unbe Awakens
Date: 10 Dec 92 17:49:58 GMT
Organization: Boston University Center for Remote Sensing

In article <1992Dec09.222152.14771@onetouch.COM> jpalmer@onetouch.COM (John Palmer) writes:
>byers@cl2.cl.uh.edu (Unbeliever) writes:

>>"Religion has nothing to do with morality.  Religion can promote a certain
>>moral code, but then so can a bowl of Alpha-Bits."

>     Hmmmm.  Yeah, but *MY OPINION*  (I've only highlighted that so people
>don't jump down my throat.) is that if there is a meaningful morality, 
>it has a religious basis.  (notes:
>a meaningful morality to me means one that has a solid basis. . . 
>that somehow, action a MEANS SOMETHING TO THE UNIVERSE because it is 
>good or bad. . . If you say that your  actions mean something to the 
>universe, you are talking
>about a religion.  If you want to flame, remember these definitions.

/*, Honorary Texan and Purple C Open-Comment, once again leaps
into a religious discussion...

"John, I have *no* intention of flaming you.  Everyone is entitled
to develop their own ideas about morality and religion."

"I do have a question about this, though.  My roommate, also a 
coworker, fellow students, etc., is a complete atheist.  Since
we both came from Catholic families and are no longer Catholic, 
we've talked quite a bit (also, he was friends with my brother before
he met me, and my brother's conversion to Evangelical Christianity
has also sparked a few conversations)."

"Anyways, Bob does not believe in any God, god, Goddess, goddess, or
any deity whatsoever.  He does not believe in any form of afterlife
or reincarnation.  Even my very nondeist, mostly philosophical form
of Buddhism is too much of a 'religion' to him.  He believes, very
firmly, that we are simply a higher order of animal, we have a 
purely physiological existence, and when we die that's it."

"Is Bob a moral person?  I tend to think so.  He is honest,
supportive, a good friend, and is studying rehabilitation counseling,
part of which is an altruistic impulse he has.  Bob wants his
life to mean something, he wants to make a difference (in this
world, or in the universe, if you want to put it that way).
Plus, he has a very clear sense of right & wrong that few 
people would have a problem with."

"But he is not religious, nor does he believe in a religion.
I truly believe, even by your terms, that to call him immoral,
or amoral, or even non-moral, just doesn't fit.  He can speak
about his actions meaning something to the physcial universe,
or to the 'universe' of people, but is still not religious."

"Maybe this is not interpreting your terms exactly the way
you intended, but it may be close.  I do tend to feel a tiny
little bit upset when I hear people equate morality to
religion; I know too many immoral religious people, and I also
know some moral nonreligious people.  It may be a slight
difference in semantics, but I can imagine that atheists 
cannot be too happy when people decide that they are not
capable of being moral; or worse, that if they *are* moral,
then they *must* be religious."

"Do I make sense?  Do these differences matter?
Do you understand why I hesitate to endorse your
definition of morality?  Again, please don't take 
this as a flame, merely curiousity and a few comments."




-- 
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Mike Holmes       mjmh@crsa.bu.edu           "Happiness Will Prevail!"
Boston University Department of Geography (a truly GREAT place to work!)
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Newsgroups: alt.callahans