HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Genres
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:21:37 GMT
Organization: Morgan State U. / Sch. of Engineering, Baltimore, MD

In article <13518@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>Well, in our Legacy campaigns, we have flown through space, shot a few aliens
>creatures (nasty non-intelligent ones), and used exciting technology.  In our
>present campaign, we've just gone through some ship-ship combat, and our ship
>didn't even have any weapons.  We tossed some of our military cargo overboard
>to prematurely trigger a definite-kill missile.  _My_ character is going to
>have to explain the missing cargo to the military (glad he has se flame me if
>you know of any good sci-fi games or if you know of some virtues of the above
>games that I may have missed.
>
OK, can you tell us more about Legacy?  I haven't seen it around, so is
it available to the game distributors?  Who wrote it, and who publishes
it?  Are there any suppliments, background data, or modules available?

If its available to one of the major game distributors, I can get my
hands on it, provided that I know the title and the publisher.  It
certainly sounds interesting from your short description.

-- 

wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future
From: jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Bureaucracy, management, and empires (was Re: Game balance (2))
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:12:49 GMT
	<1992Jul18.192723.9722@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
	<1992Jul23.232544.9742@wheaton.wheaton.edu>
	<1992Jul27.004326.14596@trl.oz.au>
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Rd, Harlow, Essex, CM19 9NA, U.K.

In article <1992Jul27.004326.14596@trl.oz.au> mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers) writes:

>   I would like to model some form of bureaucracy, but have been unable to
>   think of a system which would be simple enough to add to my game...more
>   like a game in itself, really.
>
>   Any ideas on how to model an expanding empire's bureacracy having 
>   to specify reams of rules?

Do you want the model to be positive or negative?  I read somewhere that it was
Chinas' civil servants that mode most of the best improvements to the country.
In this case the tradition of civil servants / bureaucracy was good.  Also
the age of the game (ie ancient modern future) must effect the outcome.  In
ancient times when paper and literacy was scarce was it a problem?  In the 
future if everyone and thing is digitised then it won't be the same kind
of problem ("No you need the blue form E36/21B which can only be obtained...")
but will probably be more do to with data errors.

As for modern bureaucracy - well, need I say more.

Jonathan
--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  With fearsome eyes and fiery breath the dragon burnt the girl to death
                    -- from "Too Late Saint George"
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 12:35:54 -0400 
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Game balance (2)
	<1992Jul20.125605.9481@waikato.ac.nz> <1992Jul21.000621.6964@trl.oz.au>
	<1992Jul21.062408.10464@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu>
	<JPG.92Jul21085103@holly.bnr.co.uk>

Another problem with big empires is that, once you've organized a
large standing army (which you'll need), you need to control the
governing of the army, control internal dissent, and, in general, have
a LOT more problems.

In other words, as an empire expands, internal tensions tend to
increase. One BIG problem is that an empire must CHANGE IT'S
GOVERNMENT as it expands... governments that work for one size will,
most likely, not be very successful at different scales.

And trying to do THAT successfully is HARD. One reason the Romans did
so well is that their government changed successfully a number of
times. Unfortunately, they stalled out near the end, but even then it
fragmented rather than simply collapsing.

-Me
[Pooh Bear incarnate.]
<B1 c+ f+ w g+ k+ s+ r- e+ p>
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Athentic Thaumaturgy
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:49:11 GMT


	Has anybody seen a copy of this game aid?  It was published
in 1979 by Choasium, written by P.E.I.Bonewitz.  It was writen to be
a magick system replacement for such games as AD&D, but is easily useable
with most other systems.  The author holds a BA anf Magick from some Texan
University, and was asked to write this gaming aid when several players
expressed disgust with the current (1979) state of the art in RPGs.  It
seems to be out of print, but I'd LOVE to find and old copy for sale.
It is THE most realistic magick system I have EVER seen.

					Michael Carson
				  c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu
From: wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: complexity vs. playability
Date: 23 Jul 92 15:46:21 GMT
Organization: Morgan State U. / Sch. of Engineering, Baltimore, MD

(Steven Mathers) writes:
>Heres a question for you...
>Which makes for a better game in general- a complex game with lots of
>strategy and tactics involved,or a simpler game that is easier to play.

Ilike games with "lots of strategy and tactics involved", but find that
the complexity of the rules has very little to do with it.  The
strategic and tactical aspects of a game are the decisions that the
players have to make.  The rules should be clear and consise in
identifying what these decisions are, when they should be made, and what
the relevant risk factors are.  As the rules become more complex, it
becomes difficult to identify and evaluate all of the risk factors.  At
its worst, this effect can give players the feeling that the dice and
the rules are in control of the game.

In the case of most wargames and simulation games, the rules should be
as complex as needed to adequately model the situation.  In many cases
"realism" must be sacrificed so that the rules do not become overly
complex.

Chess is an example of a game with very simple rules, but with lots of
decisions to be made, and extremely well-defined risk factors.  The
complexity of the game lies in the incredible numbers of possible moves
and future positions.

>How long are people prepared to play a game for? Some take a few hours,
>some last over a day.

I prefer games that can be played in a single sitting.  I can't leave
them set up until the next time I gat a chance to play, and I don't
usually have entire weekends that can be devoted to gaming.

-- 

wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: gil@smtc21.engr.scarolina.edu (Gil Young)
Subject: Re: Too much math! (Or is it??)
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 02:54:27 GMT

Concerning the problem of logs and other types of serious 
math in games scaring gamers away, I'd have to say, "Use a
chart!"  That's right, include the formula and say "For 
those of you who don't want to do the math, here's a chart."
However, I'd like to cast my vote on the subject:  I don't
mind doing higher math in my games.  I'm sure not many of
you agree with me, however.

Gil Young
From: mperry@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: complexity vs. playability
Date: 24 Jul 92 12:18:18 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

>>I think people should be very careful about confusing complexity with
>>variety...
> 
> 	and realism.
... and speed.

You can have a complex game which is fast and quite playable. 
Alternatively, you could have a simple game which is very slow.

I like games which are complex, have variety, and can be quite realistic, but
if there are too slow to run then I don't play it.

Take empire, it is a game which can take months to play. Many players have
trouble picking up the game after any length of time. ie it is played over a
long length of time. Yet it is still a rapid game - when a player is playing
empire they can do a lot in a short amount of time, they don't have to be
playing it continuously (just like governments don't have to govern 24 hrs of
the day). If the game is too slow, people stop playing it. Often speed (or lack
of it) is also linked to complex games
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: rob@watney.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Game balance (2)
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 06:24:08 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.000621.6964@trl.oz.au> s.mathers@trl.oz.au writes:
>From a military point of view, I guess that a larger empire has a much
>bigger circumference to defend.  This makes it vunerable to attack from
>more than one direction.  As long as there is only one problem to deal
>with at a time, the empire can mobilize all of it's spare resources and
>eradicate the problem.  But if attacked on several fronts (and the
>larger you are, the more likely this will be) takes a lot more resources
>in proportion than a small empire.

That doesn't sound plausible.  The resources should be proportional to the
area, the length of the border to sqrt(area).  Hence bigger is better from
that point of view.

SR
---
From: Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: complexity vs. playability
Date: 23 Jul 92 05:52:41 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

I don't think the two are necessarily incompatible.  The goal should be to give
the players the freedom to make decisions, with no single decision in itself
being either complex or decisive, but with the cumulative effect of correct
decisions being a better position and the cumulative effect of poor decisions
being a deterioration in position.

The "complexity" of the game then becomes a measure of the number and frequency
of decisions made by the players, as well as the data which should properly be
considered in making the decision.  I wasn't entirely joking when I wrote the
article for the GENERAL saying that WRASSLIN', ADVANCED CIVILIZATION and
ADVANCED THIRD REICH had fundamental similarities - in RASSLIN' the decision
whether or not to try a drop kick may depend on whether the opponent is likely
to have a block or a reverse card, while in ADVANCED THIRD REICH the decision
of whether to make a diplomatic die roll for Rumania may depend on whether
Britain or Russia is a better target for Germany, which in turn may depend on
the U.S. - Axis tension level, the relative strengths of the various countries,
and on and on - but there is still an underlying logic to the game structure.

So I suggest a series of comprehensible, clear decisions for the players, with
an understandable number of factors bearing on the decision, with no single
decision being either trivial or determinative of the outcome of the game.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sadkins@bigbird.cs.ohiou.edu (Scott W. Adkins)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Athentic Thaumaturgy
Date: 22 Jul 92 12:22:57 GMT
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept., Athens

In article <7428@monmouth.edu> c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON) wrote:
>	Has anybody seen a copy of this game aid?  It was published
>in 1979 by Choasium, written by P.E.I.Bonewitz.  It was writen to be
>a magick system replacement for such games as AD&D, but is easily useable
>with most other systems.  The author holds a BA anf Magick from some Texan
>University, and was asked to write this gaming aid when several players
>expressed disgust with the current (1979) state of the art in RPGs.  It
>seems to be out of print, but I'd LOVE to find and old copy for sale.
>It is THE most realistic magick system I have EVER seen.

I did not have the one you mentioned above, but I had a couple of others by
Choasium that described armor in one book and weapons in another.  I in 
particularly liked the armor book, since it described a new system (if I 
recall correctly) with different pieces of armor protecting different parts
of the body with different AC's... This was before AD&D even ever caught 
onto such stuff.  Unfortunately, both of those books were stolen, along with
some of my other D&D stuff... but I have survived... :-)

Don't forget to have a good day!  Some people never remember this.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott W. Adkins                   Internet: sadkins@ohiou.edu 
     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                             ak323@cleveland.freenet.edu
 (Flame me, not the net!)                Bitnet: adkins@ouaccvma.bitnet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
			   Ohio University of Athens
			Home of the Great Hocking River
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: jonh@david.wheaton.edu (Jonathan Hayward)
Subject: Re: More stats queries
Organization: Wheaton College, IL
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:48:47 GMT

In article <712005390.0@selene.FidoNet.Org> Zarniwoop.Woop@f99.n121.z1.FidoNet.Org (Zarniwoop Woop) writes:
>Tottaly untrue.  Computer freaks, like myself and more prone to sickness 
>because of their dormant nature.
>
>Atheletes do get sick, probably because of exposure to the elements, ie
>running 10 miles inpouring rain/hail.
>
>However, the athelete might get sick but his FUTURE health (heart 
>condition, amount of cappilaries etc) will be MUCH better.

At least in real life, I've found that the amount of time taken to maintain
fairly good health to be rather minimal - thirty minutes a day.

Without giving a big lecture, I'll say that the time I spend exercising does
not compare to the benefits (like sleeping better and therefore being able to
spend less time in bed and be more alert for the rest of the day).  There are
certainly athletes that spend 6+ hours a day training, but maintaining
reasonable athletic condition (as compared to exceptional, where a 1% increase
in performance is the difference between 7th place and 3rd) only takes half an
hour a day.

In game terms, this would seem to mean that if a technician wanted to be of
poor health, that option would be available.  However, someone who wanted to
spend a little time on good health could do so, and would not professionally
suffer for it.  And in (game) situations where people of delicate health have a
50% chance of being wiped out instead of a 5% chance, as opposed to a sedentary
situation where the strength of a small child is more than enough, you aren't
going to find wimps.

################################################################################
# If you disagree, think I'm missing an important point, or would like me to   #
# elaborate, then by all means send me e-mail.  We probably both have          #
# something to learn from the other.                                           #
################################################################################
# "God, give me mountains # But the greatest    # Jonathan Hayward             #
# to climb and the        # of these is love.   # Jonathan_Hayward@wheaton.edu #
# strength for climbing." # I Corinthians 13:13 # jhayward@imsa.edu            #
################################################################################
From: wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Wanted: Info on Modern Warfare
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:20:40 GMT
Organization: Morgan State U. / Sch. of Engineering, Baltimore, MD

jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons) writes:
jflint@ic.sunysb.edu (Jesse Flint) writes:
>>   "Desert Storm" scenario. Specifically, I need to know where
>>   I could find information on modern units, and the relative
>>   capabilities thereof. 
>
>Rather than wade through highly technical info on the real items, I'd go to
>existing rules for wargames.  I used to own some for modern warfare but they
>have vanished and would probably not be considered modern any more.

First of all, check out a copy of the relevant "Jane's"; this will give
you an idea of the specifications of each of the weapons systems.  If
you don't have a copy (and they are quite expensive), most large
libraries have a set in the reference section.

Other references include:

GDW's "Desert Shield Fact Book" and "Desert Storm Fact Book".

Game References:

Larry Bond's "Harpoon" (published by GDW), and the "South Atlantic War"
module (which gives some guidelines for relating Harpoon to amphibous
and close air support).

"Air Superiority" and "Air Strike" (also published by GDW) does for
air fighting what Harpoon does for naval warfare.


-- 

wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: pychen@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Y. Chen)
Subject: Re: Game balance (2)
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:45:53 GMT

In article <JPG.92Jul21085103@holly.bnr.co.uk> jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons) writes:
>>>From a military point of view, I guess that a larger empire has a much
>>>bigger circumference to defend.  This makes it vunerable to attack from

>I'd guess its pretty real as well.  The area to border ratio seems logical
>but if you are big and those arround you small then it doesn't work

Your location relative to the others may also come into play.  For example,
if the playing area is the United States, then for the same area, Maine
(with only about 30% of its border next to the other states of the union)
will definitely be easier to defend than say, Nebraska (100% of its
border is next to some other states).

Does that mean its better to pick a border nation (Maine, in this
example) than a central nation?  This has always been a question that
keeps bugging my mind.  A border nation certainly has defensive
advantages, but a central nation should be strategically advantageous
for conquests.

-- Peter
From: wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Too much math! (Or is it??)
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:09:07 GMT
Organization: Morgan State U. / Sch. of Engineering, Baltimore, MD

IDK6TOPER@MIAMIU.BITNET (Dan Karipides) writes:
>But this seems somewhat awkward to me.  What I really want is a system where
>"level 1" is about 10 points, "level 2" is much greater (maybe 100), "level 3"
>greater still and so on.  It doesn't have to be 10, 100, 1000 etc.  (I
>considered different base logs but this only made it more complicted.)
>Any ideas?
>                                                              -Dan

Have you considered using a Fibbonacci series?  The neat thing about
these is that they are easy to explain without using any scary
mathematical term, and are easy to figure out without tables or
calculators.  For example:

Points:   1    2    3    5    8   13   21   34   55   89  141  230 ...
Level:    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9   10   11   12

The point "cost" for each level is the sum of the costs of the previous
two levels.  Easy to figure out, and you can pick any two starting
numbers you want.

-- 

wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future
From: Andrew.Stratton@cm.cf.ac.uk (Andrew F Stratton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Comments please - unwarlike strategy games.
Date: 27 Jul 92 09:41:39 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College of Cardiff
X-Mailer: Cardiff Computing Maths PP Mail Open News Gateway


	I know that war plays a very important part in human history, but I
would like to know of any ideas or systems for strategy games (which I enjoy)
that aren't infact based on battles, death, war etc.

	Please - no flames - I enjoy strategy games and fantasy 'hack and slay'
type, I'm just trying to see if the balance can be redressed by looking at
non violent CHALLENGING games.  I also would prefer not to go for the usual
next choice - which is finance based games.

	Thanks in advance - I will summarise if requested,
	  Andy Stratton.
-- 
	Parallel Processing Support Officer
	University of Wales College of Cardiff

	email:stratton@uk.ac.cf.cm
Xref: sparky rec.games.design:1497 misc.entrepreneurs:2385
From: sennet@ocf.berkeley.edu (Sennet Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design,misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Need help marketing board game
Date: 27 Jul 1992 23:17:21 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

   Interested?  Heres the deal:

      I have a board game based on politics that seems to have strong
market potential.  Most people who have played it or seen it
have been excited and encouraging.  For the last four years
I had planned to have it on the market for this election season,
but for unexpected circumstances beyond my control I have not
been able to get all the work done yet.  

.   Basically, I want to find someone who has the time and ability
to get this game published and direct marketed before the election
and Xmas season.  Experience is preferred but not required.
It would also be beneficial to live in ther bay area, but not
necessary.   

.   What do I have to offer?  The game is about ready to print,
but I am still making minor changes.  I have financing to pay
printing costs for 500-2000 copies and possibly a wage or
salary to whatever help I find.  I will also be working on
promotion with this person, and I have a degree in Business.
(Compensation for your help would presumably include, but not
be limited to, some royalties or commission on game.)


.   If you are still interested please apply for the position
through E-mail.  Please list your time availability, location,
and any experience in the game or publishing industry, and 
education, and short term compensation requirements.

    Keep in mind that there is a severe time squeeze involved
with getting this printed in time to distribute prior to
the election.  If you are interested I would expect to
have a written agreement with you in less than two weeks
and we would need to be arranging publishing immediately.
 It would speed the process a little if you told me
 in your application letter what knowledge you have
 concerning protection (TM, copyright, and patents)
 of a board game.  Also know that I will not describe
 the game in detail until after the concept and
 name are protected (they aren't as of today)  If you
 are serious you could show it by telling me the quickest
 route to getting some basic protection in your reply to
 this note.
 
 Please reply to sennet@OCF.berkeley.EDU  I will reply within
 several days with more information
 
 Happiness is a LEARNED condition   --Tom Robbins.