HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Date: 28 Jan 93 15:38:35 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1k2i80INNe32@shelley.u.washington.edu>, rjb@carson.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars) writes:
> There's actually a small problem in a remark by Lorenzo Farris --
> 
> Quantum mechanics and relativity did not falsify Newtonian physics. A
> watermelon thrown from my roof will still hit the ground at the speed
> that Newton predicts. ;-)
> 

[rest of post deleted for brevity]

I am not aware of what Newton thought was going on when he developed
his theories. My discussion of classical mechanics, as we also refer
to it, is grounded in present day understanding. 

I also did not intend to imply that transmutation of elements is not
possible. I simply wanted to make clear what modern understanding of
physics and chemistry do and do not allow as mechanisms for alchemy.
I have only tried to correct attempts to apply physics *as we know
it*. I don't think I have closed the door on something we physicists
don't know about yet.

				cheers,
					Lorenzo
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jbbell@nyx.cs.du.edu (Rev. J. B. Bell, Ms.D.=)
Subject: Address for Thyagi's telnet
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 20:21:37 GMT

Hey, Thyagi!  How about an IP number for soar.cs.cmu.edu?  I can't
find it with nslookup and my nameserver is nonexistent, with the way I
get around cyberspace?  How about helping us name-impaired folks?

                               --Rev. J. B. Bell, Ms.D.

--
                          1 block to Bryn Mawr!
I need a roommate to share a 2 BR, full bath, spacious apt.  $380/mo.,
$380 DD, no utils.  Nonsmoker, no drugs, but alcohol OK.  Sorry, no
pets.  Tolerance of paganism & queerness a must.  (215) 527-5774.
From: markk@lefty.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The method of Science, the aim of Religion
Date: 21 Jan 1993 16:08:35 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: markk@lefty.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: lefty.west.sun.com

Musing on the perverseness of the (anthropromorphised) mechanisms of magick
is making excuses for experiments that might fail before they are conducted.
This is evidence of a non-open mind, and not the mind of a scientist (or any
seeker of truth).

If someone claims a power, they should be able to demonstrate results that
are statistically beyond the results that most people get.  If they cannot
demonstrate those results then their claim rings empty.  This is simple 
skepticism.

The fact that some people make fantastic claims and are not able to carry
them out before the Amazing Randy does not mean that their is no magick.  It
means that those individuals are making claims they cannot back up.  

I don't know very many magickers who make such "flamboyant" claims.  Most
of them only claim to be able to invoke powers of revelation, guidance and
influence - and they seem to deliver well on their claims.
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: yet another alchemy biblioggraphy
Date: 28 Jan 93 06:46:48 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu


this is from 'in pursuit of gold', by 'lapidus'.

this book is by a practicing alchemist. he says in the 
introduction that he is excerpting and using only the
most helpful and least deceptive texts. for a fact the
book is very useful, interesting and informative,
consisting of passages from various texts (and one or
two complete texts) with 'lapidus' commentary where
appropriate. 

these books are (as in the previous bibliography) not
always generally available.

Ali-Puli 'Epistles', 1951
Anonymous German Alchemist, 'Hermetic Triumph', 1723
Artephius, 'Secret Book', 1624
[reproduced in it's entirety in IPOG]
Bacon, Roger, 'Root of the World' ('Radix Mundi'), 1692
Hamilton-Jones, J. W., 'Bacstrom's Alchemical Anthology', 1960
Hermes Tresmegistus, The Golden Treatise, 1692
Kelley, Edward, "Book of St. Dunstans' (in 'Alchemical Writings', 1893)
Maier, Michael, 'Atalanta Fugiens', 1617
[a series of copperplate engravings, each with an accompanying latin
verse set to a fugue in three parts. the edition I have comes with
a cassette of the fugues and translation into english of the verses.
there is also an essay for each image that is not included in this
edition]
Paracelsus, "'Theory  of Alchemy'" (in 'Works', 1894)
Philatheles, Eirenaeus, 'Marrow of Alchemy', 1654,
 'Ripley Revived', 1678
Pontanus, John, 'Sophic Fire', 1624
Ripley, George, "'Twelve Gates'" (in 'Opera Omnia Chemica', 1649)
Sendivogius, Michael, 'A New Light of Alchemy', 1650
Synesius, "'The True Book'" (in Basil Valentine's 'Triumphal Chariot of
 Antimony', 1678)
Urbigerus, Baro, 'One Hundred Aphorisms', 1690
Vaughn, Thomas (Eugenius Philalethes), 'Magical and Alchemical Writings'
 (ed, A. E. Waite, 1888)
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:57:41 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b35

You might want to lay off those drugs, man.  You're starting to sound like a 
label from Dr. Bronner's Magic Soap.


Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:49:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <74128@cup.portal.com>, Thyagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes...
>93!01.21 e.v.
> 

It seems Tagi, that you've already decided its IMPOSSIBLE.  With 
that preconceived idea you'll never get anywhere with alchemy.

>I'll restate this a bit more clearly so people can see what I'm
>arguing:
> 
>1) What proof shall we accept that a person has 'extended' their
>life in some fashion?  What criteria shall we accept in order
>to justify accepting this literally?
> 
>2) Same goes for 'lead-into-gold'.  How shall we determine,
>precisely, that this 'transmutation' has taken place?
> 

Do you really think that if someone could do these things they'd 
want to participate in your proofs?  Hardly.

Also, applying these standards to your own claims of personal
transformation, how can you prove you were really transformed?
Your claims are far more subjective than the (literal) claims of 
alchemy.  How can you believe it happened without scientific 
proof? :)

>The problem here is that no credible scientific data has been
>accumulated to establish the truth of either of these claims.

Its not the nature of the alchemical tradition to do this.  You 
are judging if with your standards.

>Until there is some I feel we are much wiser to assume that they
>are simply metaphors for nonphysical phenomena.

That's not an assumption, its a judgement, a preconceived notion, 
a bias.  Skepticism is valuable but not this.  You'll never get 
anywhere in alchemy with this.

>Do I hear a counter-argument?  Yes, skepticism is very fine and
>good, but when we have evidence that many people DID die early
>due to 'alchemical potions/pills of longevity', why need we
>reserve the tentative judgement that these are STORIES, rather
>than facts?  (i.e. subjective rather than objective data)

Ah, so you admit it.  You have made a judgement.  Well, I 
disagree.  I think skepticism is sufficient protection and that 
starting an investigation with a judgement already made will 
limit what you will find.
> 
>Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva
>Thyagi@HouseofKaOS.Abyss.com


- Peggy -
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:26:43 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Distribution: world
	<74128@cup.portal.com> <C19Fr2.45z@acsu.buffalo.edu>
	<74198@cup.portal.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: Thyagi@cup.portal.com's message of Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:34:33 PST


In article <74198@cup.portal.com> Thyagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth 
NagaSiva) writes:

>   At some point it becomes reasonable to make a judgement.  The
>   question is, when?  I'll provide you with an example of reasoning
>   I follow:

>   I asked Lorenzo this:

>   ...What does what
>   you posted say (one way or the other) about the possibility of the
>   physical transmutation for any metal into gold?


>   Here is what Lorenzo said:

>   I was trying to keep the thinking clear about what could be going on
>   in terms of the physics we know. What makes gold appear to be gold is
>   its electronic properties. However, those properties are determined by
>   the number of protons in the nucleus. What that means is that unless
>   you find a way to change the number of protons in lead by three, or in
>   mercury by one, you are not going to get gold from them.

>   Gold is a pretty stable element. In terms of the physics we know
>   today, there is no *chemical* way to transform any element into any
>   other element. You could do it with an accelerator or neutron source,
>   or cosmic rays, but even then only in minute quantities.

>   To cut to the punch line, there is no physical process known to modern
>   physics or chemistry that can transmute elements, except in minute
>   quantities. And certainly none available to the ancient alchemist.

exactly. and if, in fact, alchemical trasmutation is possible (something
on which my opinion is strictly reserved), it would falsify modern nuclear 
theory to a greater or lesser degree.

>   This was my assumption also - that our present understanding,
>   based on quite a LOT of experiment with purely physical processes
>   (i.e. no psychic/psychological/spiritual/whatever influence of which 
>   we are aware) is that such a physical transmutation is not possible
>   with present or past physical technology.

>   Please at least provide a theory which substantiates it, and
>   if possible provide some evidence that these claims might be in
>   any way literally true.  Thank you.

alchemy incorporates a subtle and complex body of theory. It is not
(superficially) very close to modern chemical or physical theory,
but it does exist. I refer you to paracelsus 'answers' an excerpt
of which is published in one of the books I recommended to you for
basic reading.

josh
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Date: 24 Jan 93 15:27:08 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <JOSHUA.93Jan23052643@bailey.cpac.washington.edu>, joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
> 
> exactly. and if, in fact, alchemical trasmutation is possible (something
> on which my opinion is strictly reserved), it would falsify modern nuclear 
> theory to a greater or lesser degree.

I think it would *expand* modern nuclear theory. It cannot falsify it,
as it has been shown to hold for all the physical processes we have
been able to measure. Nothing in physics can say what is *not*. It
only talks about what *is*, and has been *seen*. If you suggest that
alchemy could proceed by known physical processes, then I could say,
'no way.' If you say it proceeds by processes unknown to modern
science, I say 'gee, I don't know, let's check it out.' ;-) But what I
know about the nucleus now is not invalidated.

Quantum mechanics and relativity did not falsify Newtonian physics. A
watermelon thrown from my roof will still hit the ground at the speed
that Newton predicts. ;-)
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: gpmenos@firestone.Princeton.EDU (Gerard Philippe Menos)
Subject: SUBJECTS NEEDED FOR PSYCH. STUDY
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: gpmenos@firestone.Princeton.EDU (Gerard Philippe Menos)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:01:39 GMT

SUBJECTS NEEDED FOR PSYCH. STUDY

I am posting the following announcement for my sister.  She is looking  
for subjects, primarily in the New York City area (the closer to  
Manhattan, the better) or in the vicinty of Princeton, NJ, to  
participate as subjects in a study on the psychology of the postpartum  
period.

At this point, my sister is in greatest need of subjects for the  
control group --females between 18 to 40 years of age, with no  
children, who are not presently pregnant.  If you can participate or  
if you know people who can participate, please read on.  The telephone  
nunber to call is listed below.

Thanks,
Phil Menos

--------------------------------------------------------------
                      SUBJECTS NEEDED

I AM A Ph.D. CANDIDATE IN CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY, CONDUCTING A
STUDY OF THE POSTPARTUM PERIOD, A LONG NEGLECTED AREA OF
RESEARCH.

                IF YOU ARE 18-40, FEMALE AND

O    EITHER RECENTLY GAVE BIRTH TO A CHILD (WITHIN THE LAST
     NINE MONTHS)

O    OR DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN AND ARE NOT CURRENTLY PREGNANT,

YOU ARE ELIGIBLE TO PARTICIPATE IN A STUDY THAT WILL TAKE 15
MINUTES OF YOUR TlME WITH ME.  AFTER THIS BRIEF MEETING, YOU
WILL BE GIVEN A PACKET OF PSYCHOLOGICAL INVENTORIES THAT WILL
TAKE 40 MINUTES TO 1 1/2 HOURS TO COMPLETE (DEPENDING ON
WHETHER YOU CHOOSE TO DO THE ABBREVIATED VERSION OR NOT), AT
YOUR LEISURE.  THE PACKET WILL BE SELF-ADDRESSED AND STAMPED.
WHEN YOU ARE DONE, JUST PUT IT INTO THE MAILBOX.

AFTER THE REBULTS HAVE BEEN ANALYZED, IF YOU WISH, I WILL
CALL YOU TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE ABOUT
THE 5TUDY AND TO GIVE YOU FEEDBACK REGARDING YDUR TYPICAL
MODES OF FUNCTIONING ALONG VARIOUS DIMENSIONS OF PERSONALITY,
YOUR TYPICAL SHIFTS IN PERSONALITY ORGANIZATION UNDER STRESS,
YOUR PERSONAL STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES AND OTHER PATTERNS OF
PSYCHOLOGICAL FUNCTIONING SUGGESTED BY YOUR RESPONSES.

THE STUDY IS BEING CONDUCTED ALONG AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL
ASSOCIATION RESEARCH GUIDELINES.  ALL DATA IS STRICTLY
CONFIDENTIAL.  YOU WILL BE IDENTIFIED WITH A CODE NUMBER.
INFORMATION LINKING YOU WITH THIS CODE NUMBER WILL BE
DESTROYED ONCE WE HAVE HAD OUR TELEPHONE FEEDBACK SESSION.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING OR GETTING MORE
INFORMATION, PLEASE CALL:

                           Micka
                        (212) 666-2174.

              PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO A FRIEND.

                        THANK YOU.

--------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
G. Philippe Menos [gpmenos@firestone.princeton.edu]
Systems Administrator,   Princeton University Libraries
voice:  609-258-5183     fax:  609-258-5571
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: ritual in lucid dreams
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:21:35 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN)
NNTP-Posting-Host: spcink.bbn.com

>From article <1993Jan26.191823.2712@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, by crisp@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Badvoc):
>[...]
>> This is very interesting. Can anyone tell me how I would go about improving
>> my ability to visualize real objects. When I try to visualize objects that I
>> have recently seen or otherwise. My mind is is either empty of full of
>> chaotic images. I would like to hear peoples responsies to this.

Take a simple familiar picture, cut it in half, throw one half away.
Then look at the half that you have and visualize the other half.  Tarot
cards are nice for this.  Then when you can visualize something concrete
well, you can try things that are more abstract or less well defined.

Dawn
-- 
"You have this adorable and misguided notion that death is something really
radical and cool but I still can't help being attracted to your fresh-faced
uncompromised tatoo-ed rebel stance and god damn, I'd like to help you
sing your tune."  "Folk Song..." by Bongwater
From: Robert.T.Warfield@dartmouth.edu (Robert T. Warfield)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Smart drugs
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:57:23 GMT
 <1993Jan21.155917.6395@shearson.com>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0b6@newshost.dartmouth.edu


  For alertness, I prefer ephridrine.  I really don't know of any drugs
that would create a significant IQ increase.

**********************************************************************
* Arthur, king of the Britons    * King of the who?                  *
* King of the Brittons!          * Who are the Brittons anyway?      *
* I am, you are, we all are the  *                                   *
* Brittons and I am your king!   * Well, I didn't vote for you.      *
**********************************************************************
Robert T. Warfield@dartmouth.edu
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Not for prestidigitators (was Re: You prefer white or black magic?
Date: 25 Jan 93 09:41:01 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: pechever@phakt.usc.edu's message of 24 Jan 1993 16:35:45 -0800


In article <1jvcl1INNqqh@phakt.usc.edu> pechever@phakt.usc.edu (The Heckler) 
writes:

>   In article <1993Jan23.164321.10058@netcom.com> derich@netcom.com (Scott 
>   A. Steinbrink) prattles:
>   >[prattle deleted]

>[deathless prose deleted]
>   If josh takes a whack at you, I won't be responsible.  

how can one add anything to this? one cannot. therefore one shall not.

>                                                           And, Scotto...
>   read the group for a month or six before posting again, would you?  
>   There's a nice undergrad.

this has to be the most emotionally affecting post I have read on alt.magick.
I was literally in tears at the end.
josh
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:46:20 IST
From: <X67107@BARILVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: You prefer white or black magic?

Black as the abbys is the stuff of true interest.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H
                       Oren THE Laughing Magican
        LAUGHING DOES TICKLE THE SOUL, THERE IS NO BETTER REASON
=========================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Qliphoth and Synchronicity
Date: 21 Jan 93 10:33:22 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics

Hello,

Thyagi, yet again, brings up interesting topics...

> It seems that Crowley, Mathers, Regardie and Waite have all set
> up correspondences which differ from one another in some fashion.
> I'm still not sure how they work out with Grant.  Somehow Crowley
> came up with a list of 'tunnel names' in _Liber CCXXXI_ 
> (from _The Equinox_ nonetheless, speaking of synchronicity and
> 'the method of Science'. ;>).  
>
> After looking through my copies of various documents (including
> Shah's rendition of the Goetia) I find no reference beyond
> Crowley for these tunnel names which Grant then uses for his
> _Nightside of Eden_.  If anybody knows where Crowley got
> them, please email me or post the information here.

Hmmm... Well, I have one pat answer that may or may not help:  Liber CCXXXI
is classified as a publication in class <A>, which classifies it as a
"Holy Book".  _The_Holy_Books_of_Thelema_ (p. xix) states that this book was
'received' by Crowley from V.V.V.V.V.  So no 'real source', other than
perhaps Crowley's own unconscious, is probably ever given.

Now, if someone can find some *textual* evidence, that may change things...

Steve Cranmer
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jtraub+@cs.cmu.edu (Joseph Traub)
Subject: Re: Address for Thyagi's telnet
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:01:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.202137.12641@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jbbell@nyx.cs.du.edu
  (Rev. J. B. Bell, Ms.D.=) writes:
>Hey, Thyagi!  How about an IP number for soar.cs.cmu.edu?  I can't

Well, the machine is seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu, and I, not Thyagi am the person
ultimately in charge of the mud, though Thyagi has been very helpful.

>find it with nslookup and my nameserver is nonexistent, with the way I
>get around cyberspace?  How about helping us name-impaired folks?

The numeric is 128.2.206.138
The port number in both cases is 9393

>                               --Rev. J. B. Bell, Ms.D.

--Moonchilde
-- 
Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty --Anonymous
Argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours --Richard Bach

Moonchilde/Amythyst/JT Traub ---           jtraub@cmu.edu
From: rbutterw@math.uwaterloo.ca (Ray Butterworth [MFCF])
Subject: Re: You prefer white or black magic?
Organization: Math Faculty Computing Facility, University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:51:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.164321.10058@netcom.com> derich@netcom.com (Scott A. Steinbrink) writes:
>If you had a choice, would you prefer black or white magic?

I prefer stage magic.


>Why?

Because stage magicians usually know how to spell "magic".


>I'd pick white so I can help God spread some goodness all around the earth.

What makes you think he needs your help?
Is your god really that inadequate?


If you want to spread goodness, why did you post this message to the
wrong newsgroups?  That tends to create evil feelings in those that
you bothered with it.

>- Scotty
>
>-- 
>Scott Allen Steinbrink
> 
>NetCom: Derich@netcom.com
>America Online: Derichman
>Bitnet: 11sstein%gallua.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
From: evans-ron@cs.yale.edu (Ron Hale-Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The method of Science, the aim of Religion
Date: 21 Jan 1993 13:08:46 -0500
Organization: (S)ingularity Magazine
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: zoo-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <1jmhq3INNk3b@west.West.Sun.COM> markk@lefty.West.Sun.COM writes:
>Musing on the perverseness of the (anthropromorphised) mechanisms of magick
>is making excuses for experiments that might fail before they are conducted.
 ^^
>This is evidence of a non-open mind, and not the mind of a scientist (or any
      ^^
>seeker of truth).

Oh, dear. "Is" again. Doesn't anyone here know about E-Prime? Talk about
non-open minds...

>If someone claims a power, they should be able to demonstrate results that
>are statistically beyond the results that most people get.  If they cannot
>demonstrate those results then their claim rings empty.  This is simple 
>skepticism.

Precisely. But as I said in my reply to Josh, what counts as
demonstration? Does demonstration have to consist of "scientific" (i.e.
experimental) proof? Your emphasis on experimentation and "having
the mind of a scientist" seems to imply that you think it does,
but the following seems to imply that you think it does not:

>I don't know very many magickers who make such "flamboyant" claims.  Most
>of them only claim to be able to invoke powers of revelation, guidance and
>influence - and they seem to deliver well on their claims.

I presume (perhaps presumptiously) that you have accepted anecdotal
evidence for your acquaintances' ability to do magick. At least,
you haven't claimed that you have tested them experimentally.
I'm not pointing a finger and crying "unscientific! heresy!";
I just don't understand your position.

-- 
I don't want to die!  Existence is one of my strong points!
Ronald Hale-Evans... evans-ron@cs.yale.edu, evans@brandeis.bitnet
                     tinfoil@world.std.com, GEnie: R.HALE-EVANS