From: dmb@case.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: In Defense of BobR and the Relevance of these Threads
Date: 24 Dec 1992 23:41:08 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: case.ai.mit.edu

In article <72363@cup.portal.com> Dave_Ninjajr_Flory@cup.portal.com writes:
>After years of Retelle watching I still hold the hope that _some_ day he'll
>grow up. Most of the people who make it to Usenet know the failings of
>Atari, some better than Bob, most of us have managed to avoid the pit he
>wallows in.

IMWO:	(weary)

Sorry, but people only publically make this kind of acknowledgement
that Atari has *serious* problems after a huge Atari Cheerleaders v.
Anti-Cheerleaders flamewar reminds everyone how bad it really is to own
an Atari computer (and therefore rely on Atari for anything) these
days.  It's like some of us get really tired of the lies, ludicrous
rumors, and dreams that urge people to sink more money into a dying
compnay's products, and we feel compelled to post some arguments,
therbey eliciting a massive backlash of ill-will.

If you are SO sure about your decision to buy a Falcon, then hearing
criticisms of it (or Atari) shouldn't sway you one way or the other.
If you aren't so sure, then it's probably good to hear even a devil's
advocate giving his side of the story.  (I don't know about you, but I
still consider a US$1000 computer a major purchase, and hence one I
would not want to make without adequate research and soul-searching.)

Bob is about the only person who's willing to contest some of the
*absurd* Pollyanna visions some people who post here have, as well as
the rampant disinformation we are drowning in in this group.  (A case
in point being the "demos" thread wherein Bob had to explicitly provide
pathnames to software that's been around for quite a while, and that
anyone who'd read even a week's worth of comp.sys.ibm.pc.games would
know about.)  Bob may be *wrong* on some points, but at least he's
broadly informed, and isn't just arguing from the point of view of
someone who's had his head in the Atari sand for 7 years.  We should
really compile a FAQ, "Incorrect Crap Atari and Amiga People Think is
True about PC's and Mac's" so that we don't have to keep explaining
that YES you CAN get 386/33 motherboards for $185, or that GEE, Mac's
have had software-transparent 24-bit color support for two years, or
UH-HUH, PC's DO run good Unix implementations these days.

People like BobR keep Atari honest, and they keep Atarians from getting
more deluded than they already are.

Sometimes Bob may cross the line between "cynical" and "belligerent,"
but that is not, I think, what you are faulting him for when you say he
"wallows in a pit."  Few people are willing to take as much abuse as
Bob just to defend their viewpoints.  Being (as someone pointed out
here recently) a "Type A personality," I respect that.  :)  It seems
like the usual way readers of this group deal with Bob is to gang up on
him to such an extent that he can't keep up with all the posts he has
to respond to, and then gives up.  It's easy to post a "me too, Bob
sucks" message, but what does that contribute?  Like saturation
bombing, this is effective but not very inspiring strategy.  If he's
such an idiot, you should have no trouble dispatching him quickly with
well-reasoned arguments.  Right?  Right?

If you disagree with what Bob says, respond to him pointedly, but lose
the personal attacks.  If you use them then he will find it hard to
resist retaliating with a bit of the same.  It usually looks to me like
people who get criticized for personal attacks have been drawn into
that sort of thing by a constant barrage of ad hominem from their
"opposition."  In theory we are trying to get at the heart of Atari's
problems in these threads; that's the first step to fixing the
problems, and that's why it's a useful endeavor and appropriate to this
group.  If a vocal minority thinks that Atari computers are hampered by
their closed architectures, for example, that's indicative of a similar
opinion in the world at large, and hence suggests that it's crucial for
Atari to understand and address that issue before cranking out yet
another home computer.

These discussions (ones that Bob typically plays a key role in) are a
gold mine of information for Atari.  If only they read this stuff and
took into heartfelt consideration, they wouldn't be where they are
today.  (Do you think Sam knows that 386/33 motherboards are $185?  I
bet you he doesn't.  Do you think Sam cares two hoots in hell about
open vs. closed architectures?  I bet you he hasn't really thought
about it.  Do you think Sam has ever heard of the TI34010?  I have
a funny feeling he hasn't.)

Dave Baggett
--
dmb@ai.mit.edu           MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory                  
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