From: mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous)
Subject: VHS/DAT Responses
Summary: Informative responses to posting of VHS vs. DAT 
Keywords: DAT, VHS
Organization: V. I. Corporation, Northampton, Massachusetts
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:03:24 GMT

Here's the responses I received after my posting comparing VHS with DAT.
I've edited out the names to protect the innocent :-)


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mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous) writes:

>I'd like to add my very subjective .02 to the discussion of the merits/demerits
>of VHS and DAT.

Hi, Mark !  I enjoyed your post, and I thought I'd respond to
it via Email.

>I'm not a DAT taper. I don't own a machine. However there are in my mind
>definite drawbacks that I have identified.
>   1) Cost.
>      Tapes are 2 hours long and cost $7 or $8. Two hours is usually an
>      inconvenient time duration for Dead shows, which often take up 3
>      hours, and thus match well with analog cassette times of 90 minutes
>      each.

You're pretty much right, here, it is expensive.  I pay about
$7 for a 120 min. tape, and about $5.50 for a 90 minutes tape.
Most DAT tapers I know will tape Set I on a 90 and Set II on a
120, letting it roll between the Set II closer and the Encore.
I sometimes will edit my Set I's onto a 120 (two first sets on one
120 tape), and here the cost becomes close to a good analog
dub (two Set I's onto one $7 tape, as opposed to 2 90 min.
metals which would be about $5).
But it general it is more expensive, making me more exclusive
about what tapes I keep.

Of course, one advantage of the more expensive tapes is that
they are of much higher quality.  They are generally not succeptible
to the stretching and breaking that is so common on analog tapes.
They are protected like a VHS tape in its casing, but with other
safe gaurds.  Also, the coating of the media makes it much more
resistant to degredation than analogs.


>      The decks are very expensive. They start at $600-$700, and serious
>      tapers are forced to purchase "Pro" decks due to that insane scms
>      scam that the industry was able to foist on consumers. It's a %!#$@*%
>      outrage as everyone agrees.

You are again right.  I paid about $750 for each of my machines.
SCMS is not as much as problem as people might perceive, however.
I find it to be only a minor nuisance.  Of course, it's still
an outrage.

>   2) DAT technology may not last. But rest assured video technology,

I think you are wrong here.  Every recording studio in the
world has DAT equipment in it.  DAT may not last on the consumer
market (some say it is already dead) but DAT is here to stay in
the Pro realm.  It is already firmly entrenched.  I don't mind
that it will disappear from the consumer market.  Prices will go
up, but maybe SCMS will disappear.

>      Let's face it, DAT has serious problems as a consumer technology.

That's why only audiophiles us it !  :-)

>      And when and if it does in fact lose out to DCC or mini-CD, the
>      cost of the media won't be able to come down because it'll never
>      sell in quantities like analog or VHS cassettes.

True.  But, DAT is on the increase in the computer industry, so that
may help push prices down.

>   3) (and this one to me is really important) Hardware reliability.
>      I've been on a DAT-tape-heads mailing list for some time now
>      (roughly a year), and by far the preponderous posts are those
>      relating to problems with the decks (and also the tapes! Apparently

Well, you only hear about the bad ones !  I've had two decks for
over a year, with no problems.  Most people are the same.  Most of
us have 3-5 year warranties, so we are well taken care of.
For every one poster on DAT-Heads who is bummed about his busted
deck, there are 100 who are fine but did not post.

>      The impression I get from the traffic on this mailing list is that
>      DAT technology has a phenomenally high percentage of bad units,

Wrong impression.  Higher than analog, surely, but not too high.  About
the same as computer equipment, I'd say.

>   To compare costs:
>     VHS hi-fi deck- can now be purchased under $400
>     One tape with 6 hours playing time: under $5 (I use hi-fi and sometimes
>     hgx grade tapes).
>     You won't go broke building a collection of VHS tapes. It's actually
>     cheaper than analog cassette (and you can watch movies too!).

No doubt that VHS is an attractive analog format, for the reasons
you stated here.  I have often wished that I went VHS.
But, it is still analog.  There is no comparison, really.
I had 1,000 analog tapes when I went to DAT.  After listening
to my first batch of DATs, I was ready to throw them all out.
Try dubbing a few gens on VHS and then comparing to DAT.

Really, the whole thing about DAT is the way it *sounds* !  It's
just awesome, can't be beat, and can't be compared to any
analog format.  The highs, the lows, no hiss, no stretches,
just perfect and beautiful !

>     DAT deck: minumum $600, pro-deck-- this is very rough guestimate:
>        $1500-2000.

Right ballpark, but closer to $1000 than $2000.  You can get some
pro decks for $1200.

>   formats. I'd like to hear a defense of DAT w/respect to the drawbacks
>   I identified.

Well, there is no defense except to listen to the tunes.
If you love the music, and hate the hiss and other problems with
analog, then a DAT is what you need.  I am very picky about
the sound, and DAT controls that so well.

Other cool things about DAT:  portable format (try bringing a VHS
to the taper section !), real time counters (real time, absolute time,
track time and remaining time),
indexing and programming (so that I can program my DAT machine
the way I program my CD player), small tapes (my collection is
way down in pysical space!), more precise level control (DAT decks have much
more sensitive meters, usually down to -40 db, and have much
better peak functions), quicker movement through the tape (I can
rewind and entire 2 hour tape in less than 30 seconds),
digital ins and outs for perfect dubbing between DATs or from a
CD player as well as analog ins and outs,
and, most importantly, the music is now
in the digital domain.   Once that is accomplished, whatever formats
arise in the past or future (i.e. PCM or MD), the music can just
be converted over.  Digital is forever, man !  :-)

I am so happy with my DAT decks, and I bet you would be too if
you tried it out for a while.

However, I agree with your main points, which is, VHS is a very
nice format.


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Mark,

Everything you said was pretty much correct BUT ... it's still ANALOG.

While you can do PCM on VHS, you didn't mention addition of a PCM unit
for your VHS machine (not all are PCM-ready). This costs about as much as
a good VTR.

I've uses many different formats for recording. Cassettee, Cassettee w
dbx (I use it in car), Beta HiFi (w and w/o PCM), VHS HiFi, 8mm HiFi,
8mm PCM, as well as DAT.

My $0.02...

DAT is by far the most coveinient and portable of all the formats. My 
Dennon unit is the size of a large paperback and easily goes to shows, 
gets thrown in car, or taken to work or on the plane. It's DIGITAL :-), 
has a good indexing system and, if you want, can record at 32kHz Samples
per second at 4hrs record time. Normal record time is 2hrs at either the
standard DAT rate of 48kHz or CD compatible rate of 41.1kHz. SCMS is
rarely a problem for most people (contrary to popular belief you CAN copy
a DAT, its just you can't copy the copy) or you can use digital mikes as
input and can copy as many copies of copies of copies as you want. Prices
are not too prohibitive, I saw DAMARK (a liquidator) selling a portable
DAT unit with all sorts of accessories and stuff for (I think) $600, about
the price of a decent VHS VTR.

I use 8mm at home for transfer of all my record albums to digital format.
Now here's something you'd like: 24hrs of indexed music in 6 stereo tracks
of 2 or 4 hours in length on a standard 2hr 8mm video tape...BUT using
DIGITAL PCM recording (digital format not DAT compatible). While it
doesn't have all the features of DAT it is still great & is Digital. With
the new longer 8mm tape, 30hrs of digitally HiFi music is now available.
That's impressive. And 8mm is going to be around as long as VHS.

I've NEVER had a problem with either format. DAT will be around for many
many years and it's future is insured as a digital format for computers.
Yes, DAT will never become a consumer format, but then no digital
recording format has ever really reached consumers. DCC (Digital Compact
Cassettee) stll has to hit the market but has a lousy PASC recording
format that degrades in quality with each copy making even more useless
than standard analog cassettees for duplication purposes.

Yes, VHS HiFi is good. I used Beta HiFi as a major method of storing music
for a couple of years before switching to Beta+PCM (Digital) and was
pleased, but it still was not a true audiophile media, and the specs for
Beta HiFi are (slightly) better than VHS.

All these things have one thing in common: Helical Scan. Analog or Digital
Data is stored on the tape using a spinning head that writes to the tape
at angles rather than in the direction of tape travel. (The exception is
DCC which still uses the same silly method that standard cassettees use).

Anyway, I agree with your comments, but having used all formats regularly
would have to choose DAT as the best format with the best future and
dynamic range and overall winner, but 8mm multi-track PCM is a close
second, but not very transportable or interchangeable (though you can get
car units from Sony and Sanyo).

Best to just "...Listen to the music play..."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mind if I field this one DAT-heads ;-)
>
>I'm a VHS user, and so far (2+ years) am very satisfied with what I've got.
>
No comment.


>I'm not a DAT taper. I don't own a machine. However there are in my mind
>definite drawbacks that I have identified.
>   1) Cost.
>      Tapes are 2 hours long and cost $7 or $8. Two hours is usually an
>      inconvenient time duration for Dead shows, which often take up 3
>      hours, and thus match well with analog cassette times of 90 minutes
>      each.


You can buy 90min versions, and 3 hour tapes are available for computers
so audio shouldn't be far behind.  Computers are much less forgiving than
audio equipment so blank computer tape is more money than the audio stuff.


>      The decks are very expensive. They start at $600-$700, and serious
>      tapers are forced to purchase "Pro" decks due to that insane scms
>      scam that the industry was able to foist on consumers. It's a %!#$@*%
>      outrage as everyone agrees.


Good VCR's are not cheap either.  SCMS does suck.  You can buy an SCMS
stripper for about 200 now and avoid buying a 1000 dollar pro deck.  You
could rent your pro-deck out for 75 bucks a day here in Austin and make
your money back.  I was never that desperate and couldn't bear letting
unknown people mangle my machines.


>
>   2) DAT technology may not last. But rest assured video technology,
>      particularly VHS, will be around for a long time for obvious
>      reasons. I would guess that audio capabilities will only improve
>      (they are already phenomenal IMO) as we get more and more of this
>      push toward home theatre systems.


DAT is pretty entrenched in the professional studio arena and will stay
that way for a while IMHO.  VCR's, like DAT, offer the only cheap way
to store large amounts of information.  Both use rotary head
technology and can suffer very similar mechanical failures.  If something
is developed to replace VCR's, it will probably be able to replace DAT
as well.


DAT is also pretty common in computer back-up so tapes should be around for
a while.


>      And when and if it does in fact lose out to DCC or mini-CD, the


These machines will initially cost more that DAT and be inferior.   Who's
going to buy them?  Prerecorded tapes will cost as much as CD's and be
vulnerable to the pitfalls of magnetic media...drop-outs and munching.
Why not just buy the CD?  People wanting to record digitally have already
forked out the $$$ for DAT and should have little interest in the inferior
DCC or mini-CD which uses a *lossy* data compression/expanision on
the signal.  It, and probably any future digital medium, will have SCMS
so your investment in an SCMS stripper could last quite a while.


>
>   3) (and this one to me is really important) Hardware reliability.
>      I've been on a DAT-tape-heads mailing list for some time now
>      (roughly a year), and by far the preponderous posts are those
>      relating to problems with the decks (and also the tapes! Apparently
>      some tape brands don't play properly on certain decks).
>      The impression I get from the traffic on this mailing list is that
>      DAT technology has a phenomenally high percentage of bad units,
>      that is, decks that are purchased and start having serious problems
>      very soon after they are purchased!


DAT's are built like mini-VCR machines.  All mechanical problems which
might happen on one can occur on the other.  Due to the rotary head
technology, the units are inherently more complex than an analog deck.
I have not had any problems with my decks....knock on wood.  All you
get to hear on DAT-heads are the complaints and problems.  This tends
to make thinks look worse.  I'm not saying the machines are perfect, but
they work at least as well as my video disk player which has been in the
shop for the past 1.5 years.  Bleeding edge technology ;-)
>



Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA