HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Roger.Buck@p0.f508.n711.z3.fidonet.org (Roger Buck)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: G'day
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 12:41:00 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 3:711/508.0 - The Bay, Neutral Bay NSW

G'day Ed,
         thanks for your kind words and interest...

# RB>  Our mission is to integrate the "art of science" and the "science of
# RB>  art" in all areas of public education.
##[ED=>RB]

#      Do you perchance have an opposite number in the USA or Canada?
##[ED=>RB]

There is no current equivalent that we know of in your part of the world
but we would be keen to find one ...

#      It appears to me that the world can learn from you folks
#      down under<g>. If you can share any of your project with us on
#      here, I know I would be most greatful.
##[ED=>RB]

I hate to say this, but my inspiration came from my involvement with a
place in the USA back in the late sixties (The Exploratorium) where
there were heaps of freaky people doing all sorts of innovative and
exciting things.  I think a formalised version of The Exploratorium
is still operating but I am not sure that it has maintained the vision.

Perhaps some other folks could update you on that...

#     Peace.....................................Ed
##[ED=>RB]

Darned hippies! <GRIN>

##MMR 2.41#.  !link ED 09-30-92 07:55 



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From: Peter.Macinnis@p0.f508.n711.z3.fidonet.org (Peter Macinnis)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: Holograms
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 92 16:00:00 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 3:711/508.0 - The Bay, Neutral Bay NSW

PC>I agree!  Manuals are the pits.
They do have their place, but I believe systems should be friendly
enough to run without them.  More importantly, as a writer, I get put
off by the careless write it once and the hell with it approach that the
constructors of manuals seem to prefer.  And WHY can't they provide
annotated examples of instructions?

PC>Much as I sympathize with your plight, I am not really in the position to
PC>conduct a tutorial on FidoNet at a distance.  I suggest that you fire a few
PC>questions to your local sysop.  That's what s/he is there for.
That's fine -- I was just explaining why I was unable to answer.

PC>Good luck with you fact finding, anyway.  Are you going to "plug into" the
PC>Astronomy course?
In all probability, if time is available -- I'm about to go into a heavy
writing schedule, but I'd like to at least sample it, and find out what
I'm in for.  Others may be showing the same reluctance -- can you tell
us more?

peter

 # SLMR 2.1 # Frog Watch -- full of ribbitting information



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Internet: Peter.Macinnis@p0.f508.n711.z3.fidonet.org
From: Jack.Crawford@f620.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Jack Crawford)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Global Environmental Watc
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 92 20:37:00 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:260/620 - W-FL Teacher Resour, Stanley NY

JB>     I am trying to interest ordinary folk arounf the world into
an informal JB>environmental watch in their own backyards.  The
deal, we keep a diary of JB>what we observe either in our backyard,
our streets or local park, the JB>payoff-we share in the amazing
changes in our world at the same time in JB>different places around
the world.  The things to look at are plants, the

James-
This sounds like a wonderful idea. Why don't you pose your idea in
the K12net PROJECTS echo to find some other teachers who would like
to collablorate with you and then work it up into a formal Channel
activity? the Channels might be ideally suited for just this kind of
thing. Helen Sternheim (Channels Moderator) might be able to provide
some help and advice if you need it....

=jack=


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From: Jay.Gaines@f6506.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Gaines)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: NEWBIE!
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 13:38:09 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/6506 - BBS AMERICA/3RS BBS, Richardson TX

BBS America/3 R's BBS, in Dallas, is now carrying this echo.
 
We are very happy to now be a part of this network.
BBS America is a 6-line TBBS operation in Richardson (suburb
of Dallas)operated by Jay Gaines and Ron Ellis.  We have 9
BBS'es operating on our system and the most exciting one is
our newest:  The 3 R's BBS with over 600 educational files
online for D/L, 50+ educational echoes from Fido and now K-12,
And a ton of local message areas.  We also provide online chat
for students, parents, teachers, and tutors.
 
Our users are eagerly awaiting participation in K12.
 
Our thanks to Edward Dunagin for his assistance in getting us
online with K12net.
 
Let the messages begin!
 
                        -  Jay Gaines / Ron Ellis -
 
 

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From: Stew.Bottorf@p57.f210.n3603.z1.fidonet.org (Stew Bottorf)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Tires
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 14:33:01 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/210.57 - StoryBoard, Treasure Island FL

Hello James!

Monday September 21 1992 00:43, James Aitchison wrote to Tom Turner:

 JA> I wonder if there is someway the tires could be mechanically broken into
 JA> small pieces and then somehow used in road resurfacing.  Just something I
 JA> thought about as the friction from the road on my tires was slowly wearing
 JA> them away.

I came from a small town that was a "rubber town."  In Naugatuck Conn. we had a road paved from using old tires in the early 1950's and how this was to be the first of many.  The road held-up well, but eventually was resurfaced.

I think your idea has merit.

Stew


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Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: MARS
From: kmushal@eis.calstate.edu (KAYE MUSHALIK)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 07:00:08 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

Hi again James,
	I was able to access NASA's SpaceLink today. The direct phone number
is 205-895-0028. If you want to download using XModem or YModem protocals,
you need to use the direct line. 
	If you haven't accessed SpaceLink yet, I would suggest a couple of
areas to explore first:
	From:	NASA SpaceLink Main Menu
	Go to:	#2-NASA Educational Programs
		Go to:	#6-Space-Related Educational Programs on Cable
			   Channel "Nickleodeon"

	Go to:	#17-MARS Observer Information

	Hope your project is successful and that this helps.
Regards,
Kaye
From: James.Aitchison@p4.f85.n134.z1.fidonet.org (James Aitchison)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: MARS
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 21:16:42 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:134/85.4 - Western Canada DATA, Stavely Alta

Hi KAYE.....

25 Sep 92, KAYE MUSHALIK writes to All:


 KM> Hi James,
 KM>         Hope this gets through to you - I'm kind of new at this. The
 KM> Internet number for NASA's SpaceLink BBS is 192.149.89.61. I tried to log
 KM> on this evening but "no go". I don't know whether its them or us. However,
 KM> we have been having some problems with our system so it could be us. If
 KM> you need the regular number, let me know and I'll keep trying.

 KM> Kaye Mushalik
 KM> San Jose, CA
 KM> Internet: kmushal@eis.calstate.edu
 KM> h

Just happened to scan for MARS instead of using James...  I'm glad I did. Thanks for the internet number.  I don't have an account and only use Fidonet, so I hope this gets back to you.  If you're grinnin' you're winnin'!

Chow for now ....

James.....


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From: James.Aitchison@p4.f85.n134.z1.fidonet.org (James Aitchison)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Sphere of flying
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 92 23:08:42 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:134/85.4 - Western Canada DATA, Stavely Alta

Hi Peter.....

20 Sep 92, Peter Macinnis writes to Roger Buck:

 PM> Now we have a problem, since by definition a sphere is an unpunctured
 PM> surface enclosing a volume -- if it had a hole, it would be
 PM> topologically equivalent to a plane.  Dunno, but I suspect you may have
 PM> more luck with a doughnut (a spelling used maliciously to sow confusion
 PM> among our American friends <g>).

Do not or donut forget your Canadian friends who mistakenly think down under is something geese put beneath their eggs, get the yolk?  Do these type of conversation usually go from bad to worse or does it depend on the time of day the input is typed in?

Chow for now ....

James.....


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From: Peter.Macinnis@p0.f508.n711.z3.fidonet.org (Peter Macinnis)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Sphere of flying
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 22:16:00 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 3:711/508.0 - The Bay, Neutral Bay NSW

JA>Do not or donut forget your Canadian friends who mistakenly think down under
JA>is something geese put beneath their eggs, get the yolk?  Do these type of
JA>conversation usually go from bad to worse or does it depend on the time of d
JA>the input is typed in?
How could we ever forget the Canadians?  Many out here will deliberately
ask anybody with  a North American Accent "Are you Canadian" -- this
offends no US&A types, and mollifies the Canucks (how do you pronounce
that, BTW?

I usually duck when I see foul yolks coming my way.  Occasionally I
catch them and throw them back -- you are fully deserving of an
ovation.<6>

<6>??  should be obvious -- a grin from Down Under, typed in the middle
of your day, just to prove something or other.
Hooroo

 # SLMR 2.1 # A pedant is a footnote fetishist



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Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
From: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
Subject: Re: Three points about times tables (was Re: MOTIVATION, LACK OF . . .)
Date: 26 Sep 92 00:00:53 GMT
Reply-To: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <BuzoD6.EJ7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cameron@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Cameron Smith) writes:
>
>It really is the old "for want of a nail... the kingdom was lost"
>story, and it's really true.  I HAVE ACTUALLY HAD MANY STUDENTS
>WHO COULDN'T LEARN CALCULUS BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T DO ARITHMETIC,

I have seen students who could not get through algebra to take 
calculus because they could not do arithmetic.  One was my 
freshman roommate, who had to drop out and abandon his plans for 
a degree in Biology because he could not get through college 
algebra and one quarter of calculus in two years.  Somehow his 
HS counselor let him take lots of special project courses in 
biology but nothing past 10th grade geometry.  His counselor 
did not know that he had to pass calculus to be a bio major 
in college...

--
J. A. Carr                                    |  "The New Frontier of which I  
jac@gw.scri.fsu.edu                           |  speak is not a set of promises
Florida State University  B-186               |  -- it is a set of challenges."
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute |   John F. Kennedy (15 July 60)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
From: scamp6@uva386.schools.virginia.edu (SCAMP Demo Account)
Subject: Re: Memorizing Multiplication Tables
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Charlottesville)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 20:00:03 GMT

Brian,
  Your initial idea of teaching gimmicks to learn the
multiplication tables concerned me. My fear is that teaching
the "tricks " to get the right number only encourages the
mindless cranking out of numbers.  This lack of understanding
the underlying concepts to the theorems we force our students
to memorize is what is being blamed for the poor problem
solving skills of our students.  I say "concerned" in the past
tense because your later response indicated your use of the
tricks IN ADDITION TO other methods to decrease the boredom for
your students.  I applaud your desire to make the work exciting
and interesting for your students (if only more math teachers
felt the same way!).  And I do believe that variety does indeed
add spice to any task.  However, it is essential that a good
foundation for the theory of multiplication and division be
laid first.  The theory followed by lots of games, group work,
calculators, computers, and yes, even gimmicks will gradually
commit these facts to memory without officially memorizing the
boring, painful way.

Patty West
From: Grover.Partee@f58.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Grover Partee)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
Subject: Arbitrary Techniques?
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 11:18:04 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:343/58 - Silver Lake, Everett WA

Hello, Brians -

BB>"what do you think math is for?"
(Cringing!)  Maybe: "What do you think math is?  Four?" :)

BB> I believe that math skills go well beyond the 'why do we need to know
BB>this...we'll never use it in REAL life' statements often heard.
I seem to recall that my students quit offering that particular
complaint as soon as we started "word problems."  Then, it was just
"Ugh!  I hate word problems!"  "REAL life," of course, consists of
word problems!


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From: Brian.Bridal@f49.n134.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Bridal)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
Subject: Arbitrary Techniques?
Date: 4 Oct 92 02:06:22 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:134/49 - The Student Exchang, Calgary Alta

GP> (Cringing!)  Maybe: "What do you think math is?  Four?" :)
 
heheh....that's good!!!
 
Word problems or not...that 'type' of question comes up now and again. 
"what do we need this for?"
I guess I sometimes reply with...'you need as many options as possible and there is more than one way to solve a problem'
 
ttyl
 
brian


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From: Grover.Partee@f58.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Grover Partee)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
Subject: Memorizing Multiplication
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 12:16:01 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:343/58 - Silver Lake, Everett WA

BH>>>                                                  School "math"
BH>>>is just a never-ending sequence of arbitrary techniques to memorize.
BH>>
BH>>So is English, French, History, Anatomy, Computer Science, Biology,
BH>>Physics, Cooking, Carpentry, ...

BH>No.  English, in a good learning environment, is mostly reading wonderful
BH>stories that make sense, along with some writing of things that one hopes
BH>also make sense.  I agree that English grammar, especially as taught in
BH>schools, is indeed full of arbitrary rules (most of which aren't even
BH>true).  And, sure enough, most everyone hates grammar -- .....

Arithmetic:Mathmatics::Grammar:English - in several ways!  Poor
grammar severely inhibits all the "fun stuff" in English.  Poor
arithmetic skills prevent students' enjoyment of math.  There are
differences, however, which can make the math teachers' jobs at least
occasionally more exciting.  If the student has a really good grasp
of, for example, multiplication and addition facts, s/he may actually
be able to "discover" that 7*6 = 7*5+7.  No level of competence in
grammar will ever lead the student to write a Shakesperean sonnet!

My wife, to "protect" herself in her early arithmetic class drills,
learned to add and subtract very quickly on her fingers.  She had
figured out - years before such "mathmatical" facts were taught - not
only that 7*6=7*5+7, but even more complex facts such as 8*7=10*7-2*7!
Unfortunately, her teachers were more concerned with and concentrating
on the drills.  Her "fingering" things out was viewed with distaste
and strongly discouraged.  She was convinced by their atitudes that
she was stupid in math and never learned what mathmaticians called the
marvelous properties she already had discovered.  She wound up instead
with a degree in English!


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From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
Subject: Re: arbitrary techniques?
Date: 29 Sep 1992 17:41:08 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu

Brian.Bridal@f49.n134.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Bridal) writes:
>"what do you think math is for?"

Math is just a lot of fun!  I'm not interested particularly in what it's for,
although of course I know it can be useful too.  But mainly it's a game, for
me.  I love seeing how a few principles can unfold into a lot of unexpected
implications.  I love puzzles that involve reasoning out the implications of
the given information.  ("With how many people did the mathematician's spouse
shake hands?")

Of course I use arithmetic all the time, for balancing my checkbook and stuff
like that, but I see no connection whatever between that sort of activity and
mathematics, and I'm more than happy to use my calculator to do the boring work.

I also entertain the hope, despite some evidence to the contrary, that learning
mathematics (that is, learning to think like a mathematician) can help people
see through bogus reasoning and therefore help prevent them voting Republican.
From: Uucp@puddle.fidonet.org (Uucp)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
Subject: Re: math enrichment at elementaray level
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 21:31:39 PST
Organization: Pacific Systems Group

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 23:03:27 EDT

Dear Dave,
          I have two suggestions:  First have him look at the books of
  Martin Gardner.  They contain a staggering array of quick entry looks
 at a variety of mathematics.  Second, he might look at For All Practical
 Purposes,  2nd edition, Freeman.  This book is a survey of some non-standard
  but quick starting material for college liberal arts students, but it
  is not mathematically harder than algebra, just different.

                                  Regards,
                                          Joe Malkevitch Math CUNY
 
 



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Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
Subject: Re: Arbitrary Techniques?
Date: 3 Oct 1992 15:40:48 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu

Grover.Partee@f58.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Grover Partee) writes:
>I seem to recall that my students quit offering that particular
>complaint as soon as we started "word problems."  Then, it was just
>"Ugh!  I hate word problems!"  "REAL life," of course, consists of
>word problems!

This reminds me of a funny passage from _Letter to a Teacher_ by the
Schoolboys of Barbiana, a great book written by students at a small
parochial school in Italy.

	The geometry problem on the exam brought to mind a sculpture
	in one of the modern-art exhibitions: "A solid is formed by
	a hemisphere superimposed on a cylinder who surface is
	three-sevnths of that ..."

	There is no instrument that can measure surfaces.  Thus, it
	never happens in life that we know the surface without knowing
	the dimensions.  Such a problem can only be conceived by a
	sick mind.

	In the reformed intermediate school things like that will be
	seen no more.  Problems will have to be based on "concrete
	considerations."

	And so Carla was tested on a modern problem on her exam this
	year, based on boilers:  "A boiler has the shape of a
	hemisphere superimposed..."  Back to surfaces again.
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
From: sdm2h@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Sara Delano Moore)
Subject: Re: Memorizing Multiplication Tables
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 15:02:08 GMT

David,

While I agree with your notion of making mulltiplication more
interesting for your students, and applaud your efforts, I am
concerned by the apparent narrowness of your approach.  It
appears that multiplication is viewed as a shortcut for
repeated addition, and that it, in turn, has shortcuts of its
own.  End of story.

The facts are necessary.  Memorizing them is a pain.  BUT,
where is multiplication as a representation of volume, or of
size change?  It seems to me that by giving students real
reasons to learn multiplication, they have incentive to learn
the facts and a better sense of where the facts fit in the
larger scheme of math.

Sara Moore
From: Jay.Gaines@f6506.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Jay Gaines)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
Subject: NEWBIE!
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 13:37:12 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/6506 - BBS AMERICA/3RS BBS, Richardson TX

BBS America/3 R's BBS, in Dallas, is now carrying this echo.
 
We are very happy to now be a part of this network.
BBS America is a 6-line TBBS operation in Richardson (suburb
of Dallas)operated by Jay Gaines and Ron Ellis.  We have 9
BBS'es operating on our system and the most exciting one is
our newest:  The 3 R's BBS with over 600 educational files
online for D/L, 50+ educational echoes from Fido and now K-12,
And a ton of local message areas.  We also provide online chat
for students, parents, teachers, and tutors.
 
Our users are eagerly awaiting participation in K12.
 
Our thanks to Edward Dunagin for his assistance in getting us
online with K12net.
 
Let the messages begin!
 
                        -  Jay Gaines / Ron Ellis -
 
 

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From: Brian.Bridal@f49.n134.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Bridal)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.math
Subject: Re: Drilling Mult.
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 21:24:08 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:134/49 - The Student Exchang, Calgary Alta

hehehe...my reference about 'youth of today' was because I wasn't concerned with the youth of 'yesterday' who had already finished their schooling(notice I didn't say education).
 Yes, memorization is necessary...but only as a low level form of learning. You could say memorization was the basic building
strategy, but not the means to an end.
 I'm not sure what you were referring to about the 5 times table. You said:
 
I claim that students are bored becaue they have NOT been required
to memorize.  Let me explain.  I claim that a student who looks at
the "five times table":
 
  5 x 0  5 x 1  5 x 2  5 x 3  5 x 4  5 x 5
   =  0   =  5   = 10   = 15   = 20   = 25   ...
 
would have a hard time NOT seeing some relationships.  He'd easily
notice that the products end only in "0" or "5", and that in fact
the "0"s and "5"s alternate.  He would have the basis for learning
something about even and odd numbers, and for developing rules about
multiplying by 5 (and by the way, the way you do it is exactly the way
I do it too: multiply by ten and cut in half).  But if he's never ever
been forced to sit and stare at the list, and if he's in fact never
quite sure whether 5 x 6 makes 30 or 40, then he won't have a chance
of grasping these more subtle relationships.
...
 
I don't think memorization is necessary to recognize relationships. They may accent each other...like the student who memorizes the 5 times table and THEN notices a relationship. "getting the hang of math" I don't think is memorization. As educators we HAVE to help students 'get the hang of whatever they are attempting to learn. I don't think that whether a student memorizes or not (mult. table for example) is the sole explanation for success or failure in a subject. Memorization is a tool
that can help but that doesn't solve everything. I believe that
memorization has a place in learning but not a very big place. Understanding is far more important...and understanding does not necessarily need memorization!
 I agree that grasping concepts are very important, but what is it that has to be concrete. What exactly is that 'concreteness' that helps students grasp a concept? Mathematics is both concrete and abstract.
Probably more abstract than any other subject (at a high school level).
I am NOT looking for comparison of subjects here...yes there are other
areas where abstract reasoning occurs.
 
I havn't read much more about the idea of 'drilling' or memorization in mathematics. I am interested in others' opinions.
 
talk to you later
 
brian


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