HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: davej@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (David F. Juraschek)
Subject: Re: Favorite lullabyes
Organization: George Mason University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:14:20 GMT

>>Did your child(ren) have any sure-fire-that'll-put-me-to-sleep songs?

Our daughter (11 mos) loves to fall asleep to any of the songs either on
the tape - or song by her mother or father - from the Hosanna/Integra
"I LOVE YOU" lullaby tape.

Whether or not you feel that you are "religious", this tape is really
wonderful in terms of being consistantly gentle and soothing.  (Or so
we've found - and we're in the middle of <shudder> ... teething!)  They
also have really sweet and touching words that convey a parent's love
for their child.  We're really looking forward to when our daughter,
Cadeau, is old enough to understand just what the words mean - and then
when she's old enough to realize that she can't remember when she first
started hearing them (that she's heard them all her life).

Can't recommend this tape highly enough.

-Dave
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: staffan@ca.serum.kodak.com (Kenneth Staffan (x37507))
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:40:44 GMT

>>OTOH, we teach classes at church occasionally.  Our policy for
>>disruptive children is a warning, a timeout, and then they need
>>to leave the classroom and sit with their parent(s).  For the kids
>>whose parents do not spank at all, this is ineffective (except that
>>it gets the class back under control with them gone ;-).  The same
>>kids end up going out every 5 weeks or so.  The one kid we had to
>>send out whose parents *do* spank (admittedly very rarely), only
>>needed it once, and I'll also admit he did not get spanked for
>>this instance.

I make this comment as just a passing observation.  It may not be the
fact that the parents spanked (i.e. the type of reinforcement), as the
very fact that they _did_ apply some sort of negative reinforcement to
the behavior (as opposed to letting it slide with the removal from class,
something the child may have actually _wanted_)

Ken
---
staffan@serum.kodak.com
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 16:28:06 GMT

In article <TIGGER.92Nov7001439@satyr.Sylvan.COM> tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan) writes:
>I also wanted to respond to the poster who claimed to have 'no
>limits'. Unless Clare really doesn't restrict her son't behavior at
>all, she's got limits. She just hasn't looked at it that clearly. I
>would think she's going to continue his diaper change despite
>squirming, keep him away from danger, keep him from hurting others,
>and the like. That is what 'setting limits' is about. It isn't
>necessarily about setting down complex rules for everything, it can be
>pretty basic. But Clare, it would probably be helpful to you in your
>parenting if you got clear what your goals and limits and the reasons
>for them are. There are some social limits, for example, that will
>enable your child to move more easily about in society if he learns
>them, even if they don't endanger his life.
>

  He just doesn't hit limits very often.  He's cooperative, and
  easily distractable.  He responds to "Uh Oh" or "Don't do that"
  and then goes onto something else.  He's very concerned when
  he accidentally spills something and helps to mop it up, or
  asks for paper to clean it up.  He doesn't touch other people's
  stuff when he's not home and doesn't throw tantrums outside the
  home.  He's nice to other kids and wants to give them a hug.
  He climbs into his carseat and waits to be strapped in.  

  The only limit that he hits is to take off the lid of the
  diaper pail.  So I enforce it with a brief joint-time-out.
From: kperdue@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com (Karla Perdue)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:10:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Our parents and spanking  Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
From: sll@bellcore.com
Subject: Tourettes Syndrome
Reply-To: sll@bellcore.com
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 15:49:43 GMT


Hi,  I will post this again since my earlier message has gotten "chopped"!

I am looking for info on Tourettes Syndrome.  My 10 year old nephew has
just been diagnosed with it.  I would be interested in peoples experiences
with Tourettes, symptoms, medications, symptoms changing over time, etc.

As I stated before, e-mail directly to me is fine.
Thanks for any info - advice.

Sharon
sll@bellcore.com
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer)
Subject: parent/child relationships
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1992 20:25:38 GMT

There has been some discussion about not treating our children differently
than we would treat other adults and I must say that this concept terrifies
me.  

If my best friend consistently took my jewelry and lost it, you'd bet she
wouldn't remain my best friend any longer.  However, my son will always be
my son.

If my husband told me I had a big butt and that he'd rather spend the night
with someone else than home with me, I'd be in divorce court and he wouldn't 
be my husband any longer.  But my son will always be my son.

Children do not treat us as other adults do.  We must tolerate far more
impertinence, insensitivity, abuse, and sometimes down right cruelty.  And
we must NOT abandon them when they don't behave the way we want them to.

The relationship is different because it is not a peer to peer relationship.
The relationship is different because we parents have the responsibility for
having brought these children into this world and therefore must train them
and stick by them.  After all, I imagine most of you wouldn't put your
best friend or husband in a time-out or take away their cars, computers,
TV's, and stereos either.

My mother once told me that she did not have to condone my behavior but she
would always love me.  "If you murder someone and are in jail, I will not
condone the murder.  But I will be there every visitors day."  This is the
moral obligation of a parent.  It is not the same obligation of a friend or
a spouse.  It is far more sacred bond.  Unfortunately for the children of
this world, there are those who do not abide by it.  

-- 
Judy Leedom Tyrer

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"	- William Blake
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Long-sleeved Onesies
Date: 8 Nov 92 10:48:53 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Sylvan Associates

In article <1992Nov5.191217.19625@keps.kodak.com> mbb@keps.kodak.com (Maureen Busch) writes:

   I was recently looking for some long-sleeved onesies for shower/baby gifts.
   I had some when my now 4YO was a baby, and thought they were great.  I couldn't
   find any, and was wondering whether anyone has seen long-sleeved onesies by
   Gerber or any other manufacturer.  Are they non-existant or just harder to
   find?  Thanks a lot.

Well, if you want to get nicer shirts (that look like shirts instead
of undershirts) with snap crotches - both Biobottoms and After the
Stork carry them. They are not cheap, though, a bit over $10 each, but
100% cotton.

Personally, I dislike lap-shoulder shirts, but everyone's got their
own preferences.

Biobottoms - 800-766-1254
After the Stork - 800-333-KIDS































































































































































































































-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
From: reg@dptg.att.com (51351[efw]-Regina Mackiewicz(MT4799)1374MT)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Hystersalpingogram Results
Keywords: NOT
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:14:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: dptg.1992Nov10.151415.690
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T BL Middletown/Lincroft NJ USA

thanks to those who responded to my post asking about iodine in
the hystersalpingogram procedure.

summary: 

those who responded had a severe reaction to iodine in other medical
procedures using iodine injection, ie: cat scan

some had no previous incidence of iodine allergy, shell fish, etc

I decided at the last minute, while in surgical gown staring at the
xray table, not to go through with it because the risk was too high.
in my original post i said that 2 of my immediate family members had
 a reaction to iodine injection so i was nervous to begin with.

the radiologist said: 1) they don't use as much iodine in the procedure as
they did in the past
 2) allergies are not hereditary 3) if i can eat shell fish then i "shouldn't"
be concerned about a reaction. 


i contacted an allergist in the area and asked if i could be tested for
iodine sensity for this procedure.  he said that that particular reaction
is a "toxic" reaction as apposed to an "allergic" reaction and a scratch
test would not be conclusive.  also, just because i can tolerate shell fish
is no indication that i would not react to the iodine.

my ob/gyn said that some doctors treat patients who have confirmed iodine
allergy with the steroid predizone(sp?) a few days before the procedure.
if a reaction occurs the steroid is there to combat the reaction.
he feels that the side affects of steroid therapy out weigh the benefits
of the procedure and he would not do it.

Now, I still have the NEED TO KNOW if my tubes are blocked.  I can
take clomed for 6mos and if not pregnant then it's recommended to have
 a laparoscopy.  i'd rather not take drugs without knowing first and my
ob/gyn supports me if i decided to have that done now.

all this just to have sleepless nights and running noses . . .  you bet!!

reg
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 22:39:49 GMT

In article <25820@optima.cs.arizona.edu> shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>In article <16895AD33.M18611@MBVM.Mitre.Org> M18611@MBVM.Mitre.Org (Kathy Wilk) writes:
> > 
> >  One question in this spanking thread is 'Can you change a child's
> >behavior without spanking him?'
>
>As I have said numerous times, for some children you can, for some you
>can't.

which comes to an interesting point. What if you have one of each? What if
you have 3 kids, one of whom spanking works, and the other two it is either
useless, or even damaging? What do you suggest then? Do you have kids David?
I am about 400 posts behind, and maybe this has already come out, but from the
posts I have read by you alread on this subject (and I must say there seem to
be an excessive amount), I am unclear if you are talking theroy or practice.

Not that there is anything wrong with listening to peoples theroy on spanking.
There is a branch-off flame war on wether a childless person can effectively
discuss that issue. I certainly think they can, and am learning a lot from
people who are discussing their experiences as children. What I wonder about 
David, is that he seems to not like children. I am not accusing him of hating
children, but I am saying that he is *appearing* that way. Maybe he isnt very
good at presenting his arguments, or maybe this whole thread is just pressing
a button, and making him sound that way. But, if he isnt a parent (or even if
he is) and he is one of those types that thinks that any behavior from a child
is an affront to him, and therefore should be stopped (the type that thinks
children should be seen and not heard), then I would like to know that, so we
can all weigh his comments with that in mind.

David: do you have kids? do you enjoy them? do you enjoy other peoples kids?
do you look forward to spending an hour or two (or the rest of your life)
playing with them? cuddling them? listening to them? when they are having an
off day, can you make some allowences in the same way you would for an adult?

Personally, I wouldnt take advice on childrearing from anyone who didnt
love children as much as I do. Mu guess is that you dont. Not even close!

Laura Floom


> >  There are people who assume you can't and they go to spanking first.
>
>There are a few people like me who don't assume you can.  I'm saying
>that when the situation comes up, ALL options are open.  I'm not
>going to sit here and say "I'll never spank" or "I'll always spank".
>I will decide when the time comes, not before.
>
From: dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 8 Nov 1992 16:50:03 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu
Summary: "never" has a place in childrearing

In article <26042@optima.cs.arizona.edu> shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>
>I've been trying to show that whether we like it or not, spanking is
>sometimes necessary.  The basic argument I make is:
>
>    There exists a child and a situation for which spanking is the
>best solution.  Therefore, "never spank" is invalid advice.

Wait a minute!  I'm sorry for this flame (I'm *really* trying to do
my best to react in a civil manner, folks), but "spanking is
sometimes necessary?"  It sounds as if you're trying to claim
spanking as a necessary part of childrearing as though it were a part
of natural law!

You also tried to claim that "never do X" should never be applied to
parenting because absolutes are inappropriate when applied to
something as "nebulous" as parenting.  Here are some "never"
claims, and please let us know if you *really* believe that nevers
should not be applied in parenting:

	Never set your child on fire.
	Never throw your child off a roof.
	Never hit your child with a baseball bat.

Get it?  Now, before anyone accuses me of throwing spankers into that
crowd of obvious abusers above, that's definitely not what I'm
saying.  Rather, I'm trying to point out the incredibly idiotic
notion that "never" has no place in childrearing.  And, while I stop
short at saying "never spank a child," I'm hopeful that in my family, 
we will be able to add it to our list of nevers.  Even more importantly, 
we have a few nevers that we use in our current childrearing that have
served us pretty well:

	Never let a day go by (in my case, an hour :-)) without
	  reaffirming your love for your child.
	Never treat a child with disrespect.

-- 
Diane C. Lin			"Live now; make *now* always the
dlin@weber.ucsd.edu	         most precious time.  Now will 
(Dylan's mom, 23 months)	 never come again." (ST:TNG)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: ian@candela.ATMOS.ColoState.Edu (Ian Wittmeyer)
Subject: more cute things they say
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 00:02:31 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523


Sean *used" to like broccoli (when he was 2). he called them 
"trees" before we told him the real word. sound familiar to 
anyone???

I told Sean one time that the funny thing flying above us was
a "helicopter". A few days later he called it a "hogderdopter".


--
Ian Wittmeyer
Dept of Atmos Sci / CIRA
CSU, Ft. Collins, CO
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: lowry@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry)
Subject: Cute things they do [14mo]
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:29:40 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Lindsay has recently learned to shake her head when she doesn't want
something, typically when she's in her high chair and doesn't want to
accept whatever spoonful we're presenting to her.  But her "defiance"
reached a new height yesterday.

She was standing in front of our coffee table with the television's
remote control.  My wife wanted the remote, and said "Lindsay, give it
to Mommy," a phrase she seems to understand.  Lindsay walked around
the coffee table, raised the remote control toward my wife, said
"No!," and walked back around the coffee table with the remote
control.  We were hysterical.
--
Andy Lowry, lowry@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7925
IBM Research, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:26:56 GMT

In article <1dc082INNt4i@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> davids@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (David Schwantner) writes:
>Second hand story:
>A close friend raised her two daughters after her husband left her. She
>(for about 6 years) tried to over compensate for the missing love of the
>father by "spoiling" the girls with alot of freedom, etc... Her method of
>discipline was reason, removal of privilages, timeouts, etc... Both girls
>were very rebelious still. At some point someone convinced her that she
>needed to start spanking them for certain offenses (not as a rule for
>every offense, but only for a couple that they continued). After the first
>time she spanked her older girl (then maybe 8-10 years old), when the
>daughter had settled down from the shock that her mom actually did it, the
>girl came to her mom and said "Thank you, mom, I really deserved and
>needed that spanking. I was wrong". The mom never did really continue
>using spanking regularly, and the girls are still troubled and troubling
>in their mid-teens (drugs, running away, etc...).
>
>Draw your own conclusions!

NOT a flame:

I don't know how anyone could draw a conclusion one way or the other
from this story.  Most parents know that a child's character is mostly
set by age 8, so anything after that is damage control.  Not beyond
hope, just difficult to undo.  Either way, it doesn't sound like spanking
(or any discipline?) was done consistently (note that this is not
synonymous with regularly), and any insecurity and rebellion could be
attributed to inconsistency rather than spank/not-spank.

Two questions:

People arguing *both* sides have done what this post does: slips an
anecdote of a child telling the parent that what they did was right.
So why does an 8 year old (or younger) know what is going to teach
them discipline and make them happy and secure when they are an adult?

Why do we have to qualify everything we say to keep radical non-spankers
from accusing us of child abuse and radical spankers from accusing us of
wanting to raise rebellious, moronic brats?

Mark
-- 
Mark Wuest                              |     *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mark.wuest@att.com                      |
mdw@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail)        |
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: dank@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (Daniel G Knierim)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Plain Talk About Spanking (long)
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:13:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: tekig7.7523
Reply-To: dank@tekig6.pen.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

Following are a couple of quotes from different posts, admittedly somewhat
out of context, but they are representative of distinctions I think several
parents are making that seem to me would be lost on the kids.

One poster says:

>I don't believe in 'punishment'.  That does not
>mean that I think you can let people (of any age) do things that hurt
>themselves or others.  And as a parent you have more of a responsibility
>to prevent a child from hurting people than in other sorts of relationships.

>There are all sorts of ways to do this.  If you need to restrain someone,
>you restrain them.  If someone is tired and needs a rest, you can remove
>them from a situation.  If someone has caused harm, you can require
>restitution, up to the ability of the person to restore what was damaged.

Another poster says:

>However, I don't view such rules, i.e. rules governing
>safety or acceptable social conduct (can't intentionally harm
>someone) as examples of parental authority.  Yes, for now, until our
>son is old enough to understand exactly *why* we have such rules, he
>is still expected to follow such rules.

I have trouble understanding the difference between punishment and restraint
or restitution as an adult.  (E.g. if you throw me in jail to restrain me
from some activity society considers wrong, I will feel punished.  Ditto if
you sue me successfully for actual damages, if I don't understand why my
actions should be considered at fault for causing said damages.)  I think the
distinction is lost on small children.  Either way, it comes across as the
parent exercising control over the child by using advantage of superior
size, strength, or whatever.

The second poster says rules of safety and social conduct are not examples
of parental authority.  I can see that these rules, or the need for them,
extend beyond the scope of the parents to the general welfare of the child
and society as a whole.  But to a small child, it still seems to me that
it appears like the parents are imposing their will on the child's
behaviour.  At some point, a child can actually understand and believe the
concept of "it's for your own good", but I think that comes later in life
than the need to understand and follow said rules.  (Note:  the "it's for
your own good" is not meant to cover just punishment, but as an explanation
for any exercise of parental control over children.)

Can someone who sees the distinctions help me understand them, and give
examples of how to explain them to a child (e.g. 2 - 6 YO range is of most
interest to me at the moment)?

- Dan Knierim
These opinions aren't worth the standard disclaimer form they're printed on!
Newsgroups: misc.kids