From: isds11990012@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: exteriorization
Date: 6 Oct 92 00:16:26 GMT
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <BvnMvx.4sz.2@cs.cmu.edu>,
    lindsay+@cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:
> 
> isds11990012@memstvx1.memst.edu writes:
>>I have a question for Don.
>>I would like to know why, in your opinion, 
>>exteriorization and the scientific laws that govern the phenomena
>>are contrary to modern physics.
> 
> Assume you have exteriorized to the Van Allen Belt, and come back,
> with knowledge of what it's like there. How did that knowledge
> travel? How did it get back into your body in a way that the body
> could interpret? How was it gathered - are there nonphysical eyes
> that can see? (In stereo, with depth perception?) Do they do it by
> intercepting photons ? [In which case it should be possible to
> photograph the shadow of an exteriorized whatever-it-is.] And so on.
> 

   What makes you so certain knowledge has to "travel" back to the
body?  There are a lot of things that I don't agree with about what you
are writing, but I think I can sum them up better after this next
point or two.

> The question isn't "what does it contradict" as much as "by what
> means could it possibly operate". We have (for instance) a supposedly
> complete list of the things that can interact with photons.
> Nonphysical eyes are made of none of these, so at the very least,
> whole new branches of physics are implied. Nor did I use the word
> "eyes" lightly, because this perception seems to get colors right
> when used around the home. Eyes perceive certain colors more than
> others, for chemical reasons. A different viewing sense would have no
> reason to be color-matched against eye chemistry.
> 

   Who says that you have to have photons to see anything.  Certainly,
bodies need light to see, but I wasn't talking about a body anyway was I?

>>This "awareness of awareness" can't be physically measured because
>>it isn't an object.  We call the "awareness of awareness" a thetan, the
>>Scientology word for soul or spirit.  Since theta isn't an object,
>>you can't locate a thetan in the physical universe.
> 
> I would call awareness an ongoing event or a process. I most
> certainly can locate an event.
> 

   You know very well that you can't locate this "event" as you
call it.  Since you always demand objective evidence, I would love
to see you locate this "event".

>>A thetan creates MEST by considerations and postulates.
>>If you were able to change your considerations about MEST, you
>>would be able to create your own universe.
>>This is real to me.  I have observed for myself that this is true.
> 
> Basically, you are saying that reality is not objective. I disagree.
> 

   I suspect that the most basic disagreement we have is on this point.
You claim that reality is objective.
  
You write...
> To paraphrase Philip K. Dick, reality is what is still there after
> you decide you don't believe in it. This idea - that there is an
> objective reality - isn't new.

   Your idea that reality is objective is entirely subjective.  You 
consider that reality is objective, thus reality is objective from your
point of view.  This still does not change the fact that reality is
objective to you solely because you consider it to be so.

   The underlying reality of it all is that reality as we know it is
only the way we consider it to be.  Any scientific experiments, theorys,
or anything else may make us think that reality is objective and to the
degree that we consider reality to be objectivce, it is.  But wether
or not reality is objective or subjective from your point of view depends
entirely and only on opinion, thus from every point of view reality
is subjective.

   To put it more simply, what we agree to be real IS real.  This is
true.  

   If reality is objective as you claim, why doesn't "science" as you
describe it prove it objectively?  It seems that someone somewhere must
have done this.  On the other hand, L. Ron Hubbard has established that
theta (thought, life, spirit, etc.) creates Matter, Energy, Space, and
Time by means of considerations. 

   All the mechanics of the physical universe are the result of
considerations made by a thetan and agreement between thetans.  Anyone
who truly wants to know the truth can walk this path called Scientology
and find out for himself.  


John Holifield


  

   
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