HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 23:26:09 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Kneeling/Authority

On Sep 28, 10:15pm, "(David Jansing)" wrote:
}
} I said, "I think not."  This does not preclude knowledge of persons in Heaven
} or Hell.  I am making an assumption here.  Back off.

	I'm sorry for my tone.
}
} >	As for Protestants.... well, you know the old saying about those
} >to whom much has been given.  I think Catholics are held to a higher
} >standard since we've been given the Real Presence of Christ in the
} >Eucharist.
}
} Are you implying that God loves some people more than others?  Once again,
} I _THINK_ not.
}-- End of excerpt from "(David Jansing)"

	Never implied any such thing.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Culture is the habit of being pleased with the best and knowing why.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Re: mysticism
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:07:25 GMT

>
>Idbil Fubar

This is the price we pay for having an open group.  Look at the name,
for heaven's sake.  I Do Believe I Lie    Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition,
would be my guess/interpretation.  I guess we could check with the sys-admin
and find out who dewind@acsu.buffalo.edu really is.  dewind -- right.


--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Altar girls and millstones
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:37:42 GMT

In article <tjrad.718396261@pv0a0c.vincent.iastate.edu> tjrad@iastate.edu (Thomas J Radosevich) writes:
>I don't see anywhere in the bible where it says that the concept of altergirls
>is wrong.  Therefore this appears to be an interprited point which the Church
>may be right or wrong on.  I have'nt thought much about this point, but I don't

   Do you believe in the Protestant doctrine of _Sola Scriptura_?

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:21:16 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: kneeling...
              29,  4:02pm)

Rae, you are finding that we are a long way removed from the first
century church.  We have been through a Reformation, and the opinions
that produced all the heresies we read about in Church History still
exist.  I hope you can accept that we are all human, and love God and
each other.  But also, like any family, we sometimes love to argue.
Take it with a grain of salt, and hang in.  After a while you will
learn who the players are and what they think.  In the meantime just
go on worshipping God in your own way as is the practice in your
parish.  I really think God is happy with our praise and adoration,
and is not really worrying about the position of our body when we
express our love for him.

Shalom,                                 Len Howard
                                        tas@pegasus.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco)
Subject: Re: sex
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 6 Oct 92 23:11:11 GMT

gorman@acsu.buffalo.edu (Anne-Marie K. Gorman) writes:

>>Am I being too cranky to suggest that we need stricter discipline?  

>Maybe not, but stricter discipline is only a small part of the solution.
>Imposing strict discipline now on sexual matters would be like imposing
>strict toilet discipline on a 6-month-old.  OK, that's an exaggeration,
>but still, most young people in N. America have never been seriously
>expected to adhere to Church teaching on sexual morality.  Many of
>their parents openly disregard it, losing your virginity is seen as a
>sign of maturity, modesty is a hang-up instead of a virtue, etc. etc.
>
>Simply to clamp down on them now would be unfair--they haven't had
>the chance to develop the habit of chastity, and they can't be expected 
>to do so overnight under threat of excommunication.  If they had been 
>brought up in a family and a community and a society that held, or at
>least upheld as the norm, Christian standards of behavior, and explained 
>the reasons for them, then discipline now would seem more appropriate.

Quite right, discipline alone doesn't cut it. It would be like disowning and
evicting your children the first time they did something wrong. 

Your point is well made. It is very difficult for somebody to develop
the habit of chastity when they haven't been given the support and training
that they need to do so. But the difficulty of a thing is independent of its
correctness; everyone should be expected to be chaste because it is right.
What to do when someone fails to be chaste is another matter. Forgiveness
and suitable help is probably much more suitable than excommunication. 

I don't think Michael meant "strict punishment on failure" when he used
the term "discipline", even though this term often carries this sort of
connotation. I suspect he meant a clear insistance on the truth, without
any sort of dissembling about or watering-down of the wrongness of sin for 
everybody. Of course, don't take my word for what he thinks, ask him! 

>Obviously I think that parents have the huge responsibility to educate
>their children on this (and other) matters, and to provide as much as
>possible a community to support them.  I don't pretend to know what 
>to do about people whose bringing up is essentially finished.

It is a wonderful thing when parents raise children in such a way as to
make it easier for them to do what is right. That's a true expression of 
parental love, more so than any financial or educational bequest.

God bless,

John
--
John DiMarco                                              jdd@cdf.toronto.edu
Computing Disciplines Facility Systems Manager            jdd@cdf.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto                                     EA201B,(416)978-1928
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: julie@skatter.usask.ca
Subject:  About kneeling... 
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:55:01 GMT

	Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but when I kneel in
church I am in too much pain to be really concentrating on the service.
I can't help but think that if I'm concerned with whether or not I'm 
going to pass out, I'm not going to be spiritually involved.  In these
circumstances is my not kneeling indicative of disobedience? 

	I don't know, maybe I just have an unusually weak back...

Jules

 


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Kneeling in church
Organization: The Ohio State University
 ((Gordon C. Zaft)) writes:
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 04:01:49 GMT

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Lay leadership of communion services
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 22:35:37 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:

> This is an interesting concept. Our parish has recently gone down to one
> priest, however we do have a parishioner who is a deacon. Is there any
> chance that the bishop could delegate his authority to a deacon to celebrate
> the Mass. I suppose there is some rule about transubstantiation only occurrin
> with a priest or higher, but can this be modified or waivered under special
> circumstances? Or am I blaspheming again:-) - J.J.

You're blaspheming again :-)

Seriously, it's getting bad all over.  My parish is down to two priests for a
3500 family area, both of them over 60 and one in the hospital with serious
back problems.  We've got the rector of the seminary coming over to help out
with Mass on Sundays, but that doesn't leave anything for the middle of the
week.  The archdiocese has tried to 'import' priests from Ireland, paying their
seminary expenses if they agree to come to New Orleans for a few years.  It's
ironic that we're a missionary country in many ways right now...



>Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us<
>Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087<
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 08:49:51 CDT
From:         Elizabeth Stevens <CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      file requests

Hopefully everyone who requested the files from True Life in
God has received them, if I missed your request, please resend
and I'll get them out to you. Elizabeth
From: J.M.A.Gilman@newcastle.ac.uk (J.M.A. Gilman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Frank Peretti (was Re: mysticism)
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:37:59 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK NE1 7RU


Liz Broadwell says :

In article <Iekq6vW_NU00F56SUd@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com>, eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM (Eric James Ewanco) writes:
> BTW the Peretti novels are wonderful and there is nothing "liberal" or
> heretical about them.  The Catholic Church has always affirmed the
> existence of a personal Satan, and the activity of demons.  This is
> REAL.  Demons DO exist, and they don't twiddle their thumbs waiting to
> be cast into the lake of fire.  They actively oppose Christians and do
> whatever they can to lead people away from God and into idolatry.  This
> has always been Catholic tradition.

I've read Peretti; one of my literary interests is Christian fantasy, and it's
refreshing to read someone who isn't cribbing from C. S. Lewis.  But I have at
least some difficulty with the way in which he presents the powers of light and
darkness at work in the world.  At the beginning of _Piercing the Darkness_,
for example, one of the angels, in order to protect the protagonist, kills a
human being attacking her.  I have never been able to determine the
significance of this event.  Anyone else notice this, and have an explanation?

 ************************ (sorry, editor problems) *********************

    Err, sorry Peretti MIGHT possibly be cribbing from C.S.Lewis's AMAZINGLY
original 'That Hideous Strength', another book about angels. I suspect he got
a lot, however, from the Jack T. Chick tracts 'A Demon's Nightmare', and
'The Assignment', in both of which demons are pictured trying to trip up
Christians, and in the latter of which angels come in.
    They're very picturesque theology cartoons, and the ideas stick in one's
mind. I might be completely wrong, F.P. may have simply have had a good idea,
though.

               James Gilman.




       J.M.A. Gilman @ newcastle.ac.uk
 'Tis the glory of God to conceal many things :                             
 To uncover them, then, is the glory of kings !
      Proverbs ch.25, v.2 (JMAG Version)
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 10:36:31 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      sinead o'connor

Apparently SNL has assured those concerned that o'connor won't be back
for a while.

I must say that I am impressed with the reaction to her behavior,
especially from an audience like SNL.  If someone says something awful
about any Protestant minister, they are usually given great applause.
But I continue to be amazed at the respect even the godless have for the
Pope.  This is somewhat encouraging.

I find it hard to believe people can criticize the Church for its
response to AIDS.  I would venture to say that no other organization in
existence has responded as quickly to the AIDS threat and has done as
much for AIDS victims -- without being judgmental -- as the Catholic
Church.  Unlike certain Protestants, the Catholic Church has urged
compassion and love for victims of AIDS, but without condoning
homosexuality.  We also deplore violence against homosexuals.

Similarly with unwed women.  I get angry when I see standup comics
complain that the pro-life people don't care about babies once they are
born.  I heard this once and the audience roared with applause.  This is
such a lie!  Do they know how many Catholic homes for unwed women are
run?  Do they realize how much effort the Catholic Church pours into
taking care of unwed women and their babies?  Far more effort than the
pro-choice people, that's for sure!

Do these critics know that the second largest social service agency in
Massachusetts, besides the government (remember this is a socialist
state), is the Catholic Church?

What about war?  Did the church not oppose the gulf war? The church has
come a long way from the days of the Crusades.  And I should point out,
if we must criticize the Church, we  must in fairly point also to the
atheist states -- the former USSR etc. -- and they hardly come out
looking better.  If religion causes wars, lack of it causes even worse
destruction.

No organization fights harder for human rights, peace, and social change
than the Catholic Church.  In my opinion, no organization carries the
light of Christ to the world more effectively than the Catholic Church.

Eric
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: World food supply
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:19:49 GMT

The present outcry warns us the destruction of mother earth at the hands of 
rapacious breeding humans is imminent. I am reminded of the story of P.G. 
Wodehouse, in exile in Long Island during the 50's. An earnest young man came 
to the door and asked permission to speak on a matter of importance. He 
explained that new thermonuclear weapons threatened to wipe out civilization as
we know it. "Are you quite sure?" asked Wodehouse. "Yes, certain" the young 
activist replied. Wodehouse, deadpan, spoke two words: "Can't wait."
:)...
From: montana@mizar.usc.edu (Robert Montana)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Medjugorje Peace Conference, Nov 21-22, Irvine, Ca
Date: 5 Oct 1992 14:31:03 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu



Medjugorje Peace Conference, November 21-22, 1992
Bren Events Center, UCI Campus, Irvine, Calif.

Saturday, November 21, 1992
   8:30 - noon
      * Music by Spirit Alive
      * Rosary - Joyful Mysteries
      * Barbara Shlemon Ryan, RN, Mistress of Ceremonies,
        President, Be-Loved Ministry, Brea, Calif, speaker
        and author.
      * Overview of Medjugorje
        "Let your family be the place where holiness is birthed."
        Mark Miravalle, Professor of Theology, Franciscan University
        of Steubenville, Gaming, Austria and Steubenville, Ohio.
      * Prayer and Conversion
        "I am with you and I am rejoicing because of your conversion."
        Rev. Joseph 'Joe' Whalen, MS, Missionaries of Our Lady of
        La Salette, St. James Church, Danielson, CT.
   1:15 - 5:00
      * Rosary - Sorrowful Mysteries
      * Constant prayer
        "Pray, Pray, Pray"
        Rt. Rev Archimandrite Stephen Barham, a priest of the Melkite
        Greek Catholic Patriarchate, on staff of the Diocese of Fresno,
        Calif., Healing Ministry.
      * Holy Mass
   6:45 - 9:30
      * Rosary - Glorious Mysteries
      * Prayer and Peace
        "Put God in the first place in your families so He may give you peace."
      * Dana, vocalist, musician, and song writer.
      * Benediction

Sunday, November 22, 1992
   8:45 - noon
      * Rosary - Glorious Mysteries
      * Prayer and Faith
        "In prayer you will be able to overcome all problems that have no
         solutions."
        Testimonies and praise
        Lisa Weible Addison, Columbia, SC.
        Jill Jensen, Winnetka, IL.
      * Prayer and Love
        "Today I want you to open your hearts to God."
        Wayne Weible, Catholic layman, speaker and author.
   1:30 - 4:00
      * Other invited speakers not confirmed are Sr. Briege McKenna, Rev.
        Kenneth Roberts, Croatian priests and visionaries.
      * Holy Mass
      * Consecration of families to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and to the
        Immaculate Heart of Mary.
      * Closing


Pre-registration
      Adult single    $28.00
      Married couple  $50.00
      Youth           $15.00
      Priest, Deasons  No Charge

On-site registration
      Adult single    $33.00
      Married couple  $55.00
      Youth           $15.00

For more information contact:

   FMM/Medjugorje Peace Conference
   P.O. Box 1775
   Brea, CA  92622-1775
   (714) 572-9779


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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 21:42:11 PDT
From:         "(Scott Spetter)" <spetter@ULTRA.COM>
Subject:      Farewell

Dear friends,

I just got back from a weekend out of town, and once again my mailbox
was flooded with mail from this list.  Much as I have enjoyed the
discussions, it is just too overwhelming.   If you folks do become
a newsgroup, I hope I'll be able to rejoin.  I wish you all the
very best.

In Christ,

Scott
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: stabosz@chopin.udel.edu (Rae Stabosz)
Subject: Re: sinead o'connor
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:04:21 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.013454.28483@erenj.com> bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:
>In the general scheme of things, who is
>this female?  A strident, hate-filled, publicity-seeking harlot that
>will use any device, including live tv, to insult, abuse, or otherwise
>be intolerant towards a group of people.  Add to that her blatant

>Bryan D. Boyle   |Opinions are mine, not Exxon's
>Senior Engineer  |Fly because you can...

******


Please!  I am horrified and saddened by Sinead O'Connor's actions,
although I believe I understand the animosity that fuels them.  I
believe that few men understand the depth of anger women _can_ feel
about what they believe to be the systematic degradation of women
by men and by a Church whose hierarchy is male.  Note: _I DO NOT
BELIEVE THIS_ about the Church.  But I once did, and I understand the
emotion that informs the hatred.  

BUT... to call her a harlot is a sad, hurtful act in and of itself.
I am so weary of hearing women verbally abused in this manner.  What
relevance does a charge of harlotry, whether true or not, have to
do with a discussion of her actions?  


Rae
















Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: tjs@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (thomas siller)
Subject: Bible studies
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1992 19:30:12 GMT
Organization: Colorado State U. Engineering College

Hi,
  I am interested in knowing if anyone has information on bible studies for small
gropus that are specifically Roman Catholic. I have been a member of a group of
catholics that last year used a study for James produced by The Life Application
Bible Studies group. These studies are very good for small groups in that they
are applicative in nature, have good questions that typically lead to very good
group discussions, and include the relevnt texts (NIV). My question is, are there
equivalents availble from the Catholic Publishing Houses. The coordinator of our
group indicated he is on the mailing list of most Catholic Publishing houses and
knows of none that produce this type of study. His comment has always been that
the Catholic Studies tend to be much more in depth, i.e. acaddemic, and not
written for the starting lay person. Our concern is, some of us, I speak mostly
for myself, worry about some of the differences between the Life Application
Publishers and our church. As an example, the author of James was clearly defined
in the common sence as being Jesus' brother. This was an obvious difference, I
worry about the less obvious ones. A second group I belong to are interested in a
study of Romans, which may causes some problems over "justification", at least
that was a warnign I received. I supliment my study with the Catholic Study
Bible, NAB, but am interested in what others may have used or are using. 

  It may be more appropriate to respond directly to me via email, unless people
feel this is of general interest. If I receive enough response I will gladdly
summarize and post the results.

			thanks
				tom siller
				tjs@longes.lance.colostate.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 07:08:18 -0500
From:         "(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Half full/Half empty

dmczap@WOOKIE.CAMBRIDGE.IBM.COM writes:

> Did Jesus by example ever exclude a believer from his presence? Was not even
> Judas invited and welcomed by Jesus in the last supper, the first Eucharist?
> Think of all the times Jesus joined with sinners as well as devout, seeking
> Jews (Joseph of Arimethea, eg.)

I don't know if Jesus ever excluded a believer (in the strict sense of the
 term).
However, if you read John 6, you can see a very clear example that those who
do not accept the notion of Jesus' body as food and His blood as drink
are not to be counted in the company of His disciples.

Note that Jesus didn't go running after the saying, "Hey wait, I was only
speaking metaphorically, etc."  There is in implication here that the belief
in Jesus giving Himself to us as food and drink is divisive.

Joel Neisen				 joel@msc.edu
Minnesota Supercomputer Center		"Mock not the worn cloak"
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia Campus Computing, 314-882-2000
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 07:58:18 CDT
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Fatima
              5 Oct 1992 23:24:07 GMT from <pol30546@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

On Mon, 5 Oct 1992 23:24:07 GMT Peder Larsen said:
>CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET writes:
>
>
>>Today, people in Medjugorje, and people all over the world witness
>>various miracles of the sun. There is typically a blue disk spinning
>>in the center that most call the host. I've seen it with brilliant
>>colors shooting off in all directions, and once when praying the
>>rosary by a statue of Mary in a garden at the Daughters of St. Paul
>>bookstore in St. Louis it was all very soft pink and looked just like
>>a pinwheel spinning around. Quite a beautiful sight.
>
>Well, looking directly at the sun will do that to you.  :-)
>
*grin* I've had people tell me that looking at the sun will make your
eyes see something about like desribed. :) Usually when I can see the
"miracle" the sun first gets to white and bright that its not even
possible to look in the direction of it. Thats my cue, then it recedes
and becomes colorful and amazing. Often kids see a golden heart in the
center and although I've never seen this a few adults I know have.

>Anyway, this is much better than my discription from the movie scene, so
>forget my post ("never mind" SNL).
>							Peder

Nah, I liked yours, never seen the movie!   O:)  Elizabeth