From: jblum@hamlet.umd.edu (Hi ho -- Kermit the Frog here...)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv
Subject: Re: DS9 was very BAD
Keywords: bbbaaaaadddd?  Think again.
Date: 12 Jan 93 04:49:25 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

In article <1993Jan10.122547.12235@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>In article <17879@umd5.umd.edu> jblum@hamlet.umd.edu (Hi ho -- Kermit the Frog here...) writes:
>>Seems that the biggest complaint of the DS9-bashers is about the aliens who
>>don't perceive linear time.  How dare an SF TV show come up with an unusual
>>idea, and not explain it to their satisfaction!

>	Unusual?  Original?  Try, stupid.  Try, "Why don't they try consulting
>	witha freshman physics major before they dump this crap on TV.

Try, maybe they know that freshmen physics majors sometimes think they know
more than they do.  Case in point:

>>The point of the show was not that the alien(s) didn't follow time -- it's
>>that they didn't UNDERSTAND it.  They had no concept of it, just like we
>>had no concept of gravity before old Isaac got bonked by an apple.

>	Yeah, right.  Perhaps on YOUR planet.  I think we humans have been
>	quite aware of the concept of gravity for as long as we've been 
>	human.  Look, drop it and it falls.  Do you think this was some sort
>	of great discovery?

Not the observation.  The interpretation.

>	I can see yourversion of Newton now.  "If youdrop it, it falls!
>	if you drop itg, it falls!  Yeehaw!"  (townspeople: "what a loser")

And then the scientists point out that, now that they understand WHY things
fall down, they can figure out how those big planets up in the sky keep
moving around the sun that way.  They can understand things now that they
look at existing phenomena from a new perspective.

Everyone knew gravity existed -- at least in one sense.  They couldn't see
that maybe it meant more than "if you drop things, they fall."  The theory
was what would make other pheonmena make sense.  If it
weren't for Newton's world view -- or Einstein's -- could you explain a
black hole, or a neutron star?

Another example -- electric and magnetic behavior were observed long before
Maxwell.  Long before Newton, even.  But once the idea appeared that both
phenomena were related -- aspects of the same electromagnetic force -- 
it opened up a whole new way of understanding the fundmental nature of the
universe.

This, in my view, is what "Emissary"'s aliens were facing.  Not simply a
communications problem, but a totally different way of looking at their
universe.  They had to realize that they had a future, which had been there
even when they only saw the present.  Kind of like the way it was possible
for a caveman to make a wheel long before anyone ever conceived of the
idea of one.  It takes a shift in perspective to see the idea -- and even
more of one to see the possibilities.

And I'm sure that, when that caveman made that wheel, there was probably
someone just like you watching.  "Look... it rolls!"  "What a loser."

You think that's fanboy logic?  Feel free to call it that.  I think it's
just a pretty interesting idea -- and one which has nothing to do with
science, really, but with the way people have to change the ways they look
at the world.

>	This was the whole point of the criticism.  The episode was
>	inconsistent with what they were claiming.

Was there any indication that they actually knew about their own frame of
reference?  We still know nothing about what conditions in the wormhole are
like -- all we know is what the occupants DON'T know, or don't see.  I don't
remember any absolute statements from the aliens of "We know everything that
is going to happen."  (They don't even understand the idea of "going to
happen.")  All these assumptions come from the viewer.  Remember that
before you trash the episode.  Take into account the frame of reference that
YOU'RE assuming.

>>You know, one of the things I like about DS9 so far is that it actually got
>>me to think about that.  Hardly any SF TV shows -- not even TNG -- ever get
>>me to ponder like "Emissary" did.

>	Uh-huh.  Methinks you should apply to be a ST writer.  People who
>	haven't thought before are *exactly* what they seem to be looking
>	for.

I've thought on plenty of occasions -- especially in my Physics classes.
I did drop my minor in it, but I certainly found it more insightful than
a "Philosophy?  Whatta loser" post.