From: haniff@argon.berkeley.edu (Tariq M. Haniff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: East and South Asians
Date: 10 Jan 1993 23:40:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: argon.berkeley.edu

In article <9301101408.AA19177@dawn400a.hpl.hp.com> rw@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Russil Wvong) writes:
>After reading Alan's article on similarities between the East Asian
>and South Asian communities in America, I came up with a list of
>differences.  (I don't know much about the South Asian community,
>so the list is pretty superficial, and may well be inaccurate.)

Thanks for your posting.  I've been reading this group for ~2 years,
and have been waiting for something like this.

>Appearance.  Obviously, we don't look the same.  Both East Asians
>and South Asians experience racism from non-Asian Americans, but the
>nature of the racism is somewhat different.

Agreed.  I have been subject to a lot of of anti-Arab racism even though
I am not an Arab-American.  During the Iran hostage crisis, I was an 
"Oil guzzling Iranian."  During the Gulf war, many people thought I was
Iraqi since I share the same first name as Iraqi Ambassador Tariq Aziz.

On the other hand, I've had my share of racism from East-Asian groups
also. Mostly comments about dark-skin.   The important thing is that 
I won't attribute those comments to the beliefs of all EAA's or other 
readers on this net.

>History.  Historically, there's been a lot of contact between America
>and East Asia:  China, Japan, the Philippines, Korea, Vietnam.  More so
>than with South Asia.
>
>International politics.  Japan (and by extension all of East Asia) is seen
>by Americans as an economic threat, an advanced, high tech society.  Crowded
>but disciplined, like a giant anthill.  India (and by extension all of South
>Asia) is seen as a poor, third world society.   

Agreed.  South Asia is definitely poor and third-world.  Many don't like to
admit it, which I find quite absurd.  Many of the educated are leaving 
the country for a better life in the US or elsewhere.

IMHO, the major causes are over-population, religious fundamentalist,
and a level of government corruption that is so bad, its almost funny.
There is a ridiculously high-level of illiteracy in India and Pakistan.
Perpetual debt is the "justification" of human slavery in many parts
of South Asia.  For example, a fellow/child weaves a certain number of
rugs/year and earns X cents/rug. During the coarse of the year he must 
buy life's necesseties such as food, clothing and medicine.  In most cases
he even has to rent the loom and buy material to make the rugs (on credit). 
I'm not doing a very good job of explaining, but the system is basically
set up so the worker can never get out of debt. A father's debt is passed
to his children, so there is always an abundance of slaves. I wish I had
words to describe my feeling when I see 6 year old kids humping bricks and
stones at construction sites. It's interesting to compare the first-world
version of this system in Japan (OK I'm stretching this), where Children 
are expected to finish paying the debt on their families house.  If that 
house happened to be in Tokyo, it would most likely have to be sold because
the children wouldn't be able to pay the outrageous inheritance tax, given
the inflated real estate value of a house in Tokyo.

"Everybody knows!  The poor have always been F*c*ed over by the rich.
Always have; always will be."  [From O. stone's 'Platoon']

>Visibility in popular culture.  Chinese and Japanese actors appear in
>American movies and on American TV, at least in supporting roles.  South
>Asians are practically invisible in popular American culture.  How many 
>South Asians can you think of, besides Gandhi and Salman Rushdie?

That's right.  There's a Tennis player by the name of Vijay Amrhatraj
who has played in a few flicks (including on James Bond film) as a
sterotypical "raghead." BTW, raghead was a derogatory term used to describe
the many Sikh farm workers in California's Central Valley (esp Yuba City)
in the days before WWII. Someone else on the net was asking for info on
this. Other than him I don't know of any.

>Language skills.  This is a gross generalization, but I think South Asian
>immigrants are generally much more comfortable with English, and generally
>have better verbal skills, than East Asian immigrants.  (This is something
>that Norman Matloff at UC Davis used to comment on.)

This is because much or all of South Asia was colonized by the English.
The Indian equivalent of Uncle Tom was 'Gunga Din'- a water-boy for the 
English Army who with his last breath blew the trumpet which sounded an 
alrm to warn of the oncoming attack of radical Muslims and Sikhs.  I'm not
100% sure of the attacking party actually, but I do know that the English
viewed the Muslims and Sikhs of India as a bunch of Bastards while 
the Hindus were the the loyalist.  [Flame Invitation]
Doesn't this sound like the Confucian "Benevolent Dictator" syndrome?

As a result of the colonization, much of the  educational system is in
English (probably all). 

>Generation gap.  There's a big cultural gap between Chinese immigrants
>and their kids.  I have the impression that it's the same for other
>East Asian immigrants, but less so for South Asian immigrants.

>Names.  American-born Chinese kids almost always use American first names
>(although sometimes they're a little unusual).  I think the same is mostly
>true for other East Asians, whereas South Asian kids almost always have
>traditional first names.

There is a large amount of pride associated with a person's name in SA
culture I guess. Every male in my family has the same middle name (which is
actaully a first name).  It goes back to before my grandfather, so it's
kind of tradition.

>Religion.  I have the impression that East Asians don't take religion
>very seriously (except for the substantial number of Christians), whereas
>South Asians do.

Partially Agreed.  IMHO, religion is just another vehicle for
discrimination.  Look at the unrest between the Muslims and Hindus,
Muslims and Jews, Muslims and the rest of the world :-) :-) :-).
OK, that was a bit of an extreme statement. My own experience is that 
SAA's are religious for social purposes.  It's like the Sunday church goer/
SNL Church lady syndrome.

>Actually, the specific differences probably aren't so important.  What's
>important is that there doesn't seem to be much interaction at all between
>South Asians and East Asians; they really do seem to be separate communities.
>
>-- Russil

Yes, and I feel it is due to the difference in physical characteristics.
I know I'm going to get flamed, but I really believe this.  I'm not saying
I discriminate in friendship based on physical characteristics, but many
people have fooled themselves into thinking they are more "comfortable"
around people who look like themselves. I am not one of them.

Don't have a .sig yet.  Actually it's rare that I have time to post like
this.

Later,

-Tariq
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american