HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: adrian@stein.u.washington.edu (Adrian Mariano)
Subject: Re: smart go format- game transcripts
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:03:55 GMT

In <168C19C18.I0060301@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I0060301@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Klaus Blumberg) writes:

>can someone pls enlighten me about getting a sgf-transcript to start
>a new diagram? only way i found so far was to stuff the transcript with
>commetary so it doesn't fit anymore on the page below the daigram. then
>it starts a new diagram.

Is this what you're looking for:


        "FG": figure                    [none]

The figure property is used to divide a game into different figures for
printing: a new figure starts at the node with a figure property.


I can note that mgt doesn't support this property, and I don't know if
any of the various printing programs I have on the archive site use
it.
From: ralf@smab.se (Ralf Lundberg)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Go programs for the Mac: Nemesis GO Master, is it strong enough?
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:26:33 GMT
Organization: Saab Missiles AB, RLD-Gbg, Sweden


One day I will buy a go program, I just don't know if the price/performance
is good enough yet.

GO Master seems to have a good interface (it got four stars in a review in
MacWorld in december), but is it strong enough? The author did not declare 
his strength, so that gives no clue. 
 
I want comments from go players who have tried the program (together with
their strenghs!) Please write, there is so little wolume in this group!
 
 
For a program to be enjoyable i think that there must be at least some
situations where the program can match the players brain. (Josekis maybe?)
 
 
        Ralf Lundberg (4 kyu)
        ralf@smab.se
 
Just another question:  There is also a Nemesis Deluxe kit; what does that
include more than GO Master? Maybe those things are more interesting
than the GO Master.   

        Ralf.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: eng20332@nusunix1.nus.sg (TAN TECK SENG)
Subject: Re: Non-internet access to IGS?
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 00:47:43 GMT

This is a test, pls ignore.
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: shaevel@Apple.COM (Jeff Shaevel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: IGS clients for RS/6000???
Keywords: HELP!
Date: 15 Dec 92 05:57:10 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

Anyone know of an X client for the IGS that runs on AIX (RS/6000)?
I've tried to compile the ones I see in the archives, but they don't
seem to work (or I don't know the right magic incantations to compile them)
Any hints?

Please e-mail, as I have little time for news these days.

Thanks.

Jeff
shaevel@apple.com
-- 
===================================================================
Jeff Shaevel        :-)-: (comedy/tragedy)    Love may be blind, 
shaevel@apple.com                             but lust is autistic.
"Hey! Shut up you STUPID OLD BITCH!" - Tony Whitcomb, SHEAR MADNESS
From: vader@iat.holonet.net (Edward Blair)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: NEW Version PCIGC 4.4
Date: 19 Dec 92 02:12:15 GMT
Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access BBS: 510-704-1058/modem


Version 4.4 of the PC go client for igs is now available via anonymous ftp 
from ftp.u.washington.edu /public/go/prog/pcigc44z.exe. This is a self-
extracting archive for IBM compatibles with VGA,EGA,or 8415 monitors. CGA 
monitors can use the text screen that uses IBM graphic characters. 

Don't forget to set binary mode for your ftp transfer.

New Features:
        Game sorts - games can be sorted numerically
        "friends" list - you can watch the login messages for your friends
        Fixes problems with Com3 and 4.

As always, I welcome your comments about pcigc. Several of the most recent 
additions were due to suggestions made by users. My address is:
vader@holonet.net    and I am 'vader' on igs.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darth Vader Lord of the Sith   | Still and quiet Feline Form,
vader@holonet.net              | In the sun, asleep and warm,
In Real Life: Edward Blair     | His tail is limp, his whiskers drooped,
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: dabrowsa@cheyenne.ucs.indiana.edu (Andrew Dabrowski)
Subject: Re: Chinese counting
Summary: Korean counting?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:36:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.200123.396@otago.ac.nz> barryp@otago.ac.nz writes:
>In article <lii07nINNbmb@news.bbn.com>, kcrews@bbn.com (Keith Crews) writes:
>> 
>
>Koreans use Japanese rules now but had their own variant prior to the
>beginning of this century.  the Korean variant was interesting but the
>result sometimes differed a lot from either Japanese or Chinese counting.
>
Could you tell us what the Korean rules were?

I've always regretted that the ending has so many vagaries about it.
Of course in prctice problems seldom arise, but the rules for ending
and counting seem to be out of line with the rest of the rules, which
are amazingly simple.  I know no-one is really interested, but my modest
proposal for logical counting rules is: just count the stones on the board;
ignore the spaces, ignore issues of life and death and seki.  Then normally
your score will be the same as under Chinese rules but minus 2 for each
independent group; thus you get a 2 point reward for connecting groups.

Understand, I'm a mathematician, this is the sort of thing I worry about.

Andrew Dabrowski	Indiana U	Bloomington
From: psr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Lord Strider)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: The new programs
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:49:53 GMT
Organization: UB

Lets see, I just got pcigc43 for the computer in my room and I've been
using xigc for when I'm in the computer labs.
I just wanted to send a BIG thanks to all the guys who made these programs
happen.  Not to mention the go servers themselves!  Since go is not as popular
as chess in the States, its hard to find opponents, expecially opponents who
won't destroy me on the board.  All these great programs have really made it
possible for me to keep my interest in the game and given me an opportunity
to improve as well.
Thanks again for these wonderful programs!

-Strider, 15k


-- 
Strider                     | SUNY @ Buffalo | psr@acsu.buffalo.edu
Lord Mayor, The Hill People | (716) 636 4862 | V127MHSK@ubvms.bitnet

"Son, I am able," she said, "though you scare me."  "Watch," said I, "beloved."
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: s9874203@titan.ucc.umass.edu (s9874203)
Subject: what is the answer of the life-and-death problem posted not long ago?
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:42:22 GMT

Title says it all.

Another question: can anybody explain to me the term "two brothers
fighting each other" using diagrams? I sort of remember that term refers
to two of one's groups which are in conflicting position.

bn 2k
From: kcrews@bbn.com (Keith Crews)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Chinese counting
Date: 11 Dec 1992 20:58:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
Keywords: one, two, three, ...


I have some questions about counting a game when playing using Chinese
rules.  The bottom line is I want to know what algorithm to follow when
counting when there are sekis, komi, and handicap stones.  For example,
when counting Japanese style you first remove dead stones, then fill in
your opponent's territory with captured stones, rearrange the areas
into easily countable groups and count, ignoring points in sekis.  The
komi is then added to arrive at the final score.  Sometimes the komi is
given in the form of prisoners at the start of the game rather than
being added at the end.  In the latter case since ties could result
(since you can only give integral numbers of stones) white wins all
ties.  So if black gives 5 prisoners to white this is equivalent to
adding 5.5 points at the end and if white gives 5 prisoners to black
(in a reverse komi game) it is equivalent adding 4.5 points at the
end.

My understanding is that the way Chinese counting is usually done is by
counting only black's territory and if it is >= 181 black wins,
otherwise white does.  I *think* I have seen adjustments made for
handicap stones, reducing black's score, but I'm not sure.  What
if there are sekis?  Are the neutral points subtracted from 361 and
then black's score compared against half of the remainder?  If this is
the method then when there are an odd number of points in a seki you
could have a tie.  Do ties always go to white?

Also, how is komi handled?

And finally, do the Koreans follow Japanese or Chinese rules or do
they have their own variant?
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: fred@dickens.com (Fred R Stearns)
Subject: Re: Chinese counting
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:31:07 GMT
Organization: Dickens Data Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Dec13.200123.396@otago.ac.nz> barryp@otago.ac.nz writes:
>In article <lii07nINNbmb@news.bbn.com>, kcrews@bbn.com (Keith Crews) writes:
>> 
>
>the result agrees with that for Japanese counting unless
>a) there is a seki with eyes or false eyes in it.
>b) black plays last (thereby getting an extra stone on the board)
>c) one side manages to fight and connect a ko after all other neutral
>points are taken.
>
One other difference:  When a player passes (in Japanese rules) and
a pass stone is not used.


-- 
Fred R. Stearns -- fred@dickens.com
Everything's a kludge!
From: bx148@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jianming Wu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Curios - The King
Date: 11 Dec 1992 21:53:13 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



There is the "King problem" again...
I have to clearify that the miscalculating I mentioned in my previous posting
is the following :
in my first posting I wrote that:
----------------------
. . . # 4 3 . 7 1 # #!    
. O . O # . 5 # 2 # #!       
. . . O # # 6 # # O O!   
. . . . O O O O O . .!     
. . . . . . . . . O .!    
. . . . . . . . . . .!

looks like a very neat solution....
as we discussed later... if black 2 play at 7 ... it still kills the black...
but this has a problem inside... when white play 3
if black play 6 instead of 4, then the black group is completely alive...
so I have to thrown away my first attempt...
     
                                                   wu 3d
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Chinese counting
From: barryp@otago.ac.nz
Date: 13 Dec 92 20:01:23 +1300
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <lii07nINNbmb@news.bbn.com>, kcrews@bbn.com (Keith Crews) writes:
> 
> I have some questions about counting a game when playing using Chinese
> rules.  The bottom line is I want to know what algorithm to follow when
> counting when there are sekis, komi, and handicap stones.  For example,
> when counting Japanese style you first remove dead stones, then fill in
> your opponent's territory with captured stones, rearrange the areas
> into easily countable groups and count, ignoring points in sekis.  The
> komi is then added to arrive at the final score. 
> 
> My understanding is that the way Chinese counting is usually done is by
> counting only black's territory and if it is >= 181 black wins,
> otherwise white does.  I *think* I have seen adjustments made for
> handicap stones, reducing black's score, but I'm not sure.  What
> if there are sekis?  Are the neutral points subtracted from 361 and
> then black's score compared against half of the remainder?  If this is
> the method then when there are an odd number of points in a seki you
> could have a tie.  Do ties always go to white?
> 

Chinese counting (as in mainland China) is done by counting one sides score
(empty points plus stones on the board) after removing dead stones. Black's
score must exceed 180.5 by more than the komi to win.  In seki half the 
neutral points are given to black and half to white.  (an odd number counts
as half each).

the result agrees with that for Japanese counting unless
a) there is a seki with eyes or false eyes in it.
b) black plays last (thereby getting an extra stone on the board)
c) one side manages to fight and connect a ko after all other neutral
points are taken.

In handicap games half the handicap is deducted from black's score and
added to white's to balance the effect of those extra stones.

(Note that IGS counts seki according to Chinese rules even though the
game is otherwise counted by Japanese rules.  This is because it doesn't
know about seki.)

> Also, how is komi handled?

komi is counted in stones instead of points (as in Japanese counting) 
Typically komi is 2.75 stones corresponding to 5.5 points.

Other countries using rules similar to or approximately equivalent to
Chinese (ie Taiwan, New Zealand and USA) have small variations in procedure
but the end result is the same.  New Zealand and Taiwan have whole number
komi (7 and 8 respectively) so draws are possible.
> 
> And finally, do the Koreans follow Japanese or Chinese rules or do
> they have their own variant?

Koreans use Japanese rules now but had their own variant prior to the
beginning of this century.  the Korean variant was interesting but the
result sometimes differed a lot from either Japanese or Chinese counting.


Barry Phease
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: rumley@netcom.com (Richard Rumley)
Subject: Re: Go programs for the Mac: Nemesis GO Master, is it strong enough?
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:20:05 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.152633.29349@smab.se> ralf@smab.se (Ralf Lundberg) writes:
>
>One day I will buy a go program, I just don't know if the price/performance
>is good enough yet.
>
>GO Master seems to have a good interface (it got four stars in a review in
>MacWorld in december), but is it strong enough? The author did not declare 
>his strength, so that gives no clue. 
> 
>I want comments from go players who have tried the program (together with
>their strenghs!) Please write, there is so little wolume in this group!
> 
> 
>For a program to be enjoyable i think that there must be at least some
>situations where the program can match the players brain. (Josekis maybe?)
> 
> 
>        Ralf Lundberg (4 kyu)
>        ralf@smab.se
> 
>Just another question:  There is also a Nemesis Deluxe kit; what does that
>include more than GO Master? Maybe those things are more interesting
>than the GO Master.   
>
>        Ralf.


I purchaed Nemesis Deluxe kit about a year ago (I was about 15 kyu).  I never
had any problems beating this program.  I think that they have come out
with a new product since I bought this one, but I haven't bothered to upgrade.

The Deluxe kit includes a Joseki tutor program, which will show you Joseki
moves.  This is a great way to learn sequences, but I don't think it is the
proper way to learn Joseki.
The Deluxe kit also includes drawing tools, to annotate and print games.  I
never used this feature....

Now that I am around 8 kyu, I have given up playing computer go games.  After
only a few games, I learn the style of the moves, and win almost all of the 
time.  I am wondering if anybody knew of any ai go games available, or any
that somebody was working on?

--Richard Rumley
  rumley@netcom.com
From: smg6@po.CWRU.Edu (Stanley M. Golem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: naming conventions
Date: 16 Dec 1992 01:48:54 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


Certainly the first part of the sequence REM was asking about is
a crosscut, but the Japanese are likely to have a name for the
whole exchange (which I haven't been able to discover).

About kiri-chigae (crosscut).  As you mentioned, "kiri" is the
combing form of "kiru," to cut.  "Chigae" comes from the verb
chigaeru," which means make a mistake, break a promise, or cross
(two stick-shaped objects, such as pencils).  So "crosscut"
seems to be a direct translation of the Japanese term.

Hope this helps.

Max Golem.
-- 
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: giordano@irisa.fr (Jean-Yves Giordano)
Subject: Answer to problem
Reply-To: giordano@irisa.fr
Organization: IRISA, Rennes, France
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 14:44:29 GMT


Here is the answer to the following problem :

_______________________________
 . . . . . . . # . . . . . # #|
 . . . . . O . O # . . # . # #|      1) There's no other stone on the board
 . . . . . . . O # # . # # O O|
 . . . . . . . . O O O O O . .|      2) White to kill
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O .|
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|      3) What's the size of the board : 17, 19 or 21 ?


Quite a tough one, and difficult to explain with diagrams. I hope a made no mistake.


 . . . . . . . # 4 1 3 5 8 # #
 . . . . . O . O # . 6 # 7 # #
 . . . . . . . O # # 2 # # O O
 . . . . . . . . O O O O O . .       w9 takes at 7 : two stage ko
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

As there is no other stone on the board, the threats have to be
found on the first line...

 . . . . . . 9 # # O O O 3 2 5
 . . . . . O 6 O # 7 # # a 1 4
 . . . . . . . O # # # # # O O
 . . . . . . . . O O O O O . .       w8 at 2, w10 takes 2nd ko at a. 
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


 . . . . 9 1 # # # 7 4 6 # O 5
 . . . . 2 O O O # # # # O 3 O
 . . . . . . . O # # # # # O O       w8 takes 5.
 . . . . . . . . O O O O O . .     
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 . . . 6 # # # # # # 4 3 # O 2
 . . 8 1 O O O O # # # # 7 # O
 . . . . . . . O # # # # # O O       
 . . . . . . . . O O O O O . .       w5 takes 2, w9 wins the ko taking at 3.
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 . . 1 # # # # # # # # O . O .
 . 3 # O O O O O # # # # O . O
 4 . 2 . . . . O # # # # # O O       
 . . . . . . . . O O O O O . .       
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

At this point, as you can verify, b is alive if the size of the board is 17 or 21. If it is 19, b is dead. Point 2) says white kills, hence the size is 19.

Merry Christmas.

J-Yves (4k, 5 at this period of the year)
From: 92kmotorka@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Thanks for Shogi-L info!
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:25:32 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

Thanks to everyone for the Shogi information and the info on the
Shogi list.  If anyone knows of any computer implementations of
this game for the Macintosh, I would appreciate that info as well.
I have Crane 0.21, but it is incredibly weak and there is no
information for contacting the author to have the stronger levels 
activated.

Thanks again, especially to Roger Hare, who was most helpful!

Chris
From: wu@hood.caltech.edu (wu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Curios - The King
Date: 11 Dec 1992 18:34:56 GMT
Organization: Bio-computational center, Caltech.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: wu@hood.caltech.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: folding.hood.caltech.edu

In article wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)

>|> What if # plays 3 instead of 2?
>
>Essentially the same result....
>
>----------------------
>.. . 8 # 6 O 7 # O # #!
>.. O . O # 9 . # 4 5 #!
>.. . . O # # # # # O O!
>.. . . . O O O O O . .!
>.. . . . . . . . . O .!
>.. . . . . . . . . . .!
>
>....and black cannot play at 9, so white will next. 

But how about black play at 6 to try get an eye on the corner. 
----------------------
.. . . # . O . # O 6 #!
.. O . O # . . # 4 5 #!
.. . . O # # # # # O O!
.. . . . O O O O O . .!
.. . . . . . . . . O .!
.. . . . . . . . . . .!

So I believe Jonathan got the correct sequence:

>Black has an eye to the left of 2, and one to the right, but not both:

>----------------------
>. . 7 # 6 5 . # O # #!
>. O . O # 8 4 # 9 # #!
>. . . O # # 3 # # O O!
>. . . . O O O O O . .!
>. . . . . . . . . O .!
>. . . . . . . . . . .!

-folding (4k)



Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: "Andrew W. Buchanan" <p00174@psilink.com>
Subject: International Computer GO Congress
Organization: Cybernetic Frontiers
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:31:50 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

I'm sending out this post for any information on the International Computer
GO Congress they have every year (the big $1.6 million prize contest).
Specifically, I'm trying to find out the exact rules used in this
competition. (Scoring, etc.)
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
					Thanks,
					Andy Buchanan
From: barryp@otago.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Komi for small boards
Date: 12 Dec 92 12:55:48 +1300
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <1992Dec8.152542.2758@rhrk.uni-kl.de>, kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
> In article <8431@public.BTR.COM>, rem@public.BTR.COM (Robert E. Maas  rem@btr.com) writes:
>>>A group of my friends have started playing recently.
>>>I've read that a komi of 5.5 points is reasonable for a 19x19 game;
>>>but this seems too large for smaller boards.  What makes sense
>>>for boards like 13x13 and 9x9?
>>
>>I believe you have it backwards. On smaller boards the value of the
>>first move may be greater, not less. On 7*7 the first player can force
>>a win by at least 7 points, maybe as much as 11, so 5.5 komi is too
>>SMALL. I believe 9*9 and other intermediate sizes would have
>>intermediate values of optimum komi, but I'm not sure.
>>
>>This makes sense, because on large boards there are lots of nearly
>>equally good moves in the opening, so if black takes the last 10 point
>>move white will probably get a 9.5 point move in return. But on small
>>boards there aren't many moves of any one size, so if black gets the
>>last 10 point move white may have only an 8 point move remaining for
>>him, so black got an extra advantage getting first pick of the moves.
>>
>>(See if anybody can find the flaw in that argument!
> 
> The flaw is that you picked only the first two values of a sequence of
> endgame moves.  If it continues in that way (10,8,6,4,2), which is unlikely
> but still only a simple example, the person who has sente gets 10, 6, and 2
> point moves, the opponent gets 8 and 4, and the difference is 6.  In the
> other example with .5 differences, I get a difference of 5.  So with these
> two examples, the advantage of playing first is slightly bigger on the small
> board.
> 
> Generally, sente is approximately worth half the value of the biggest move.
> The bigger the board, the more moves, the more exact the formula.
> 

This is correct.  What is hard to measure is the value of the first move.
(Remember value here is half the size of the move as an endgame play.)
This also varies with the size of the board (ie is larger for larger boards).
I agree with Ing that the correct komi for 19 line boards is at least 8
(New Zealand uses 7).  The value of the first move is between 16-19.

On a 13 line board the value of the first move is somewhat less but the
value of the second move may diminish faster.  Again I would use 8 points komi.

On a 9 line board 8 points seems a little small.  Maybe 10 pointsw is correct.

Barry Phease