From: vanweer@ecf.toronto.edu (VANWEERDENBURG NICHOLAS JOHN)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 03:56:53 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.151154.18933@cs.unca.edu> kepley@cs.unca.edu (Brad Kepley) writes:
>>In return, the vatican got 10%(!) of germany's tax money, and a lot of
>>dead jews and attheists( russians ) which is undoubtedly what they
>>wanted.
>
>I think this is pretty outrageous, can I insult your mother?
>Your hatred is showing....
>The Vatican hid and protected Jews from the Nazis.  They had an immense fear
>of the communists (with good reason) and chose the Nazis as the lesser of
>two evils since the Nazis, at least, intended to let the churches survive
>under Nazi control whereas the communists were destroying every church they
>could get their hands on.  What the Vatican did had nothing to do with 
>the Vatican wanting to kill Jews and Atheists, but if you insist that it is,
>why don't you balance this with how many Christians were killed by the
>Jewish Atheists of the Soviet Union Bolshevic leadership?  Ah...but that
>would be politically incorrect. It's okay to be bigoted about Catholics
>but not Jews or Atheists.

Your last statement is of the worst type of argument- diversionary and
misleading.  There is no mention or need to mention 'balance' or 'politically
incorrect' or 'bigotry'.  The point is being made about how fucked up and 
pathetic the Catholic Church is/has been.  Why the hell would anyone want
to balance this with how fucked up and pathetic the Soviet Union was.  Where
is the connection?  Take a vallium.  The point here was about the CATHOLIC
CHURCH ( or the ROMAN CHURCH if you want to anal about as others have been ).
And it was a bloody good, well put point as well, though given the point 
about the church wanting the atheists and jews dead was extreme.  Though
I will point out, that a pope once comissioned a coin/medal recoginizing/
celebrating the slaughter of 20 000 Huegonots in France (the slaughter also 
amused the good CATHOLIC King Phillip of Spain at the time ).  The crusades
and inquisition weren't very pretty either.  Then there was that schism and
the two popes.  Then the Catholic Church of Canada ( or whatever proper 
name ) covered up that child abuse ( MANY cases ) in the 60's and in some
cases even left the priests in positions of trust ( and preaching ) where
the destroyed more children's lives.  I think its fair to say the CHURCH is
fucked up and pathetic, and considering this, I would put little
trust or better yet 'faith' in anything they say.  And a final point.  I don't
think the commies were up to anything that scary to the church at the time, 
and considering the closed nature of Soviet society, I doubt the church knew 
much of the political games.  There was no need for the church to chose the 
'lesser of two evils'. And far and away above taking sides, reread the original
posts and look at the actual deeds commited by the church leaders.  They go
beyond taking sides- they were taking philosophies.  And once more- the 
discussion was of CHURCH and relgious leaders activies wrt the Nazis.  That was
the point.  The Atheists, commies, Jewish people, political incorrectness
have nothing to with it ( and isn't a Jewish Atheist a contridiction). You also
made it sound like the Jewish people had a good time with the Bolsheviks- what
history books do you read?.  And you can insult my mother if you want to, but
that would simply be a diversionary tactic.  Please focus on the point being
made.

-Nick 

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