From: pires@vxcrna.cern.ch (ALVES)
Subject: re: East Timor
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 03:50:00 GMT


I don't have any intention to keep this polemic much longer (I don't 
believe any light comes out of endless discussions), but I want to 
clarify a few points in a reply to my message.


In article <1992Oct13.220656.24347@udel.edu>, indra@earthview.cms.udel.edu writes.
> 
>Lets get this as straight as possible. 
>Prior to the involvement of the Indonesian Government (IG) in the 
>East Timor (ET) the situation can be describes somewhat similar to what 
>happened in Somalia (not of the starvation but of the civil war). In 
>the case of East Timor, the mess was the legacy of the Portugese 
>(somewhat_small_but_awefully_bad_boys, of course). 


I agree here.  There was a civil war and it was the result of the
colonial past of the territory (and we can disscuss that if you want).  
But let's not forget that the war was almost to be solved, at the time 
of the invasion, and the role the Indonesian Government played to the 
start of that war (see below).


>In brief, the ET 
>people is fragmented into at least two groups. One of the group that 
>you often heard is represented by Fretelin. This group is minority `
>but are much vocal+noisy [sounds familiar?]. Other groups, which are 
>majority of the ET people are much more quite, just like their other 
>islands brothers :-). 


This only proves that some people really don't know what is happening 
there.  The other group you refer is UDT (Timorese Democratic Union),
which FRETILIN claimed was connected to the Indonesian Government.

Now, picture this, a Government wants to invade a neighbor country and 
needs a justification.  It influences one of the groups on that country 
to create trouble and, when the war starts,  it invades the country.
See?  Easy and clean (well, almost: they aren't counting with the 
resiatance of the people on taht country).

Now tell me that can't happen  (only if you think CIA and Suharto 
are not smart enough to plan this).  I am not saying people on UDT did 
it on purpose (same people said they did), I am only saying the civil
war UDT started served Suharto (and the saying says: always search the 
one who profits with the crime).

Going back to your argument, the East Timorese are fragmented in at 
least two groups:  Fretilin and UDT.  Fretilin is the minority, so 
UDT and the other groups are the majority.  It happens that UDT,
Fretilin and all other significant groups are, since long ago, united 
and form a single Front  (the Democratic Convergence) which demands 
the right to self-determination of their people.  ACCORDING TO YOUR
OWN ARGUMENT, the majority supports the right to self-determination.

Your next argument is also compromised:

>My point is, that there is no unity among ETese. 
> 

Now, let me follow you. According to your reasoning, the next time 
you discuss with your roommate, your next-door neighbors are allowed 
to come in, beat you, brutalize you and occupy your room forever!
All this under the argument that there is no unity among you and 
your roommate!  It doesn't sound a very good idea to you, does it?

It vaguely reminds me of a famous german dictator with a moustache. :=)
Remember that it was precisely this way that WWI and WWII started?
Nothing new, really.


>Therefore, let me reformulate your question, to be more specific:
>1. Why does the Fretelin (and their simphatizer, for the sake of complete-
>   ness) is so adamant to be independent while the majority of the ET
>   people seek a peaceful settlement and be part of Indonesia?
> 
>>From pires@vxcrna.cern.ch (Rui)
>>Rui's answers (not too the reformulated question, though):
> 
>>Because their culture is completely different from Indonesian culture(s)
>>  (different languages, different colonizer, different ethnies, different 
>>  religions, different politics, etc., etc.).
> 
>Frankly, I can sympathize if someone want to break away because of
>their differences (and damn proud of it) on languages, ethnies and religions
>BUT because of different colonizer? Sounds a little silly, don't you
>think? Well, OK, I got your points: the ET is different from Indonesian
>cultures and this could be the reason. However, it could also be an 
>ingredian for the unity with other culture to achieve what we, Indonesian
>call it: unity in diversity. How nice!
> 

I also get your point.  Indonesia can keep invading other countries in 
order to increase what you (some Indonesian) call `unity in diversity.'
The more different the country, the more the unity, I believe (did 
Suharto ever think of Australia?).  Again you are not being very original.

Let me give you a (very old) tip:  
East Timor was an empty territory, nobody civilized lived there,  so 
Indonesia took possession  (it worked wonders during 500 years for the 
Portuguese and the Spaniards, and as you want to follow them...).


>>Because they were not asked to be Indonesian, they were invaded.
> 
>To be more accurate, the IG involvement in ET can be seen by ETese
>as an: 1. Invasion; 2. Deliberation, 3. Peaceful Settlement.
>As you are entitle to your opinion so does each individual ETese. 
> 
>>Because under Indonesian occupation they were brutalized, raped, 
>>  massacrated, almost dizimated.
> 
>The word "occupation" is not truely represent the correct situation.

According to you, if it is not occupation/invasion it must be one of:  

   2. Deliberation

	But then someone has to tell me who deliberated.  The only 
deliberation I have seen came from the Indonesian Government (with the 
help of the American Government, I know) to invade the territory.  But 
that doesn't count much.  A country cannot deliberate on matters of only
concern to other countries  (may I remind you that Indonesia had no 
territorial rights before the "deliberation" --- and still hasn't, as 
everybody else recognizes).

   3. Peaceful Settlement

	I'm sorry, but I fail to see how the genocide of one third of 
the population of a territory can be considered "peaceful."  And also why 
a "Peaceful Settlement" requires a huge military effort during 17 years.

Moreover, even the IG recognized several times it was an occupation.


>Now, to be more accurate (and fair, I hope): Under IG settlement
>efforts, all the citizen of the country will be treated accordingly.
>Those who creates social unrest or disturbance should expect a punishment.
> 

Again you follow very old Masters:  American settlers had to "punish" the 
Indians because they created "disturbance,"  Hitler had to "punish" the 
Resistants because they created "disturbance,"  and in general all the 
colonialists (including the Portuguese and the Dutch) had to punish the 
people in their colonies (including the Indonesians) because they created 
"disturbance."  You see, your ancestors will not like what you saying.


>Folks, is the same law everywhere. 


You can hardly call what is happening in East Timor "law".  The 
occupation was against all international laws (including conventions 
Indonesia signed),  and justice is something unknown inside East Timor:
murderers are condecorated, rapists are promoted, and I could go on and 
on.  (NB:  I don't mean Indonesians are murderers and rapists, only a 
few ones which are selected to go to East Timor and other places where 
insurrections exist.)


>>Because they feel like foreigners in their own land, only get underpaid 
>>  jobs, and live under miserable conditions.              
> 
>Doesn't most of us feel this way, underpaid and live under our desire
>condition? :-). 
> 


Ok,  I was not veement enough in describing the miserable conditions 
in which the people live there.  I let you do that:  ask all the East 
Timorese you know, or better yet, go there to see for yourself.  Then 
maybe you will stop laughing at others people suffering.


>>Because it is foreigners which benefit from their natural ressources.
> 
>If you refer to Portugese as a foreigner than you are absolute_definitely
>correct!. 
> 


Yes, the Portuguese benefited from their natural resources for 
centuries, and now the Indonesian oligarchy is following their steps.
(And let me say that most people in Indonesia will not benefit from it, 
only a very reduced circle.  So, why are you so much interested in 
defending those few?)


>>Because they want to decide their own future.
>>Because it is a right they have and they want to use.
> 
>Majority of them have made their decision and have used their right.
>The bad news is, for you of course, they have chosen to be part of
>Indonesia. Tragic? Maybe, only god knows.
> 


Maybe there happened something that I didn't know.  When was that 
famous referendum in which East Timorese chose to be part of Indonesia?
Can you give me some numbers?  The percentage of people voting in favor 
and against, perhaps?  Who are they?  I would appreciate any info
(maybe then I can change my mind :-0)


>>>    What are the benefit for them as an Independent country, and
>>>    why being Indonesian is so bad for them ?
> 
>>The benefit is enourmous, as you can see above.
> 
>Well, I don't see much benefits. 
> 
>>> 2. What do they have to live on as an Independent country ?
> 
>>Maybe you never heard of the huge amounts of oil recently discovered
>>in the Timor Sea,  which Indonesia is selling to other countries (like 
>>Australia), and from which the East Timorese will never benefit unless 
>>they become independent.  And they have many others natural ressources 
>>and others that they can start exploiting (f.ex. tourism).
> 
>First, oil in the Timor Sea will not ONLY belong to ET but to Indonesian
>and Australian as well, for the reason of the present estimated location 
>of the reservoir and of the legality (UN Law of the Sea - See section on 
>the Archipelagic Country). Then, o fully utilize this natural resource 
>they have to come to term with its neighboring states who claimed the 
>same resources. 
> 

It is not very helpful to quote UN Laws, when the United Nations still
recognize Portugal as the administrative power of the territory.  
Consequently, UNDER UN LAWS, at least part of the oil the Indonesian 
Government is selling to other countries belongs to Portugal (and
Portugal already started legal processes on International Courts against
Indonesia).


Sincerely, what more is there to understand about East Timor?
Don't you realize that only the Indonesian Government and the Indonesian 
oligarchy defends such undefensable thesis on East Timor?  Everybody 
else (including many Indonesian individuals and organizations)  is 
demanding the right of self-determination for the territory.

Don't you realize that you are hurting yourself?  Don't you realize 
that most of you do not benefit from the occupation, on the contrary,
your money is being wasted on a 17-years old war, maintaining a huge
military presence, which didn't and will not stop the resistance (this 
tells you a lot about the real wills of East Timorese people, doesn't 
it?).  

And don't you realize that if one day another country invades your 
country you will not have the moral to ask for help?   You are just 
playing the game of the superpowers you say you critize (like the US).  

If people are so sure about the decision of the East Timorese people, 
why don't you defend a referendum in the territory?  This would give 
you the chance to prove you are right and stop all the polemics, all 
the criticisms and all the economic and political pressures against 
Indonesia is suffering.

And if you are so sure of the happiness of East Timorese people, why 
don't you demand your Government to allow journalists to enter the 
territory?  What is the Indonesian Government hiding?

Let's do that?

Rui
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