HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: joelp@cs.man.ac.uk (Joel Parthemore || Pharos Project)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: the importance of being earnest-ly queer (was Jay and Arsenio)
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:10:12 GMT

rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:

>I'll get flamed for this ... I know it.

Whoa.  Throw-away line!

>What's the big deal? I mean, would you have preferred that he devote the
>rest of the interview to Sir Ian being queer?

Not (of course) having seen the interview, I would hazard the answer:  yes,
and no.

>I mean, the guy's an entertainer.  He's there as an entertainer.  He's also
>gay, but how big of an issue is that, on the Tonight show? Apparently not
>really ...

Being gay is very important to him.  Out of respect, more attention could
have been paid to it.

>I don't know ... I *personally* think that being queer is not a big thing.
>Part of what a person is, but not the only thing that defines that person.
>The Tonight Show concentrates on the part of the person that is an
>entertainer ... not other things ...

It is and it isn't (a big thing).  I think we all have felt alone and ignored,
all been aware of gayfolk subjects being carefully steered around, all get an
irrational thrill when they come striding out into the open.  We all have a
deep longing for dark places to have some light thrown into them.  I don't
think it's reasonable not to expect this.

Being gay is one small part of who I am.  Being gay is also a very important
defining aspect of who I am, because of what I have gone through on account of
it.  Both perspectives are real.

>I personally think that being queer doesn't make me different from my
>straight friends. ... not a lot, anyway ... I don't make a big deal out of
>it, I don't try to see how I'm different from them.  I don't flaunt it.

I don't flaunt my differentness; it just seems to come out naturally.  I don't
make a big deal, and yet it's probably hard to avoid with me.  I'm not that
different from my straight friends (which could and should be taken at least
two ways:  given how ``straight'' my straight friends are) and yet I *am*
different, because they had role models I didn't, they could openly pursue
relationships in school that I couldn't, they had the (dubious) comfort of
``knowing'' that they weren't different from everyone else....

>Now, this could very well have something to do with the fact that
>A) I'm very new to this (like 2.5 months ...)

Two-and-a-half months out to other folk?  Two-and-a-half months out to
yourself?

>*shrug*

 *smile*

>Roy S. Rapoport					rsr@ocf.berkeley.edu

 Joel E. Parthemore 				hecateae@cs.man.ac.uk
From: booter@Autodesk.COM (Elaine Richards)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Disproving homophobia
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:09:08 GMT
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA

In article <l92gliINNh43@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.175103.16357@amhux2.amherst.edu> 
>twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>> In article <rc9mv3l.jfh@netcom.com> 
>> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>> >What's the equivalent proof that someone isn't homophobic?
>> What's the "proof" that someone is?
>If he refuses to kiss me on the mouth in a social setting.


What if you have really bad onion breath that day?

ER
--

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I can't help it, I was born sneering."
			-Pooh Bah
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: The oral tradition (was Re: New queer terminology)
Date: 18 Aug 92 04:10:16 GMT
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA

Nelson, in his innocence states:
>>    But I don't really understand what it means to be homosexual 
>>    before 1988.

And Bob gives very sage advice:
> Neither do I, not having lived it.  Fiction and history give some
> insight, as does the oral tradition.

  And speaking from experience, the oral tradition is far and away
the best means of Passing the Torch, as it were.

		Mike (wondering if there is an anal tradition too)
From: chuckm@dakota.tcs.com (Chuck Meares)
Subject: Re: wearing symbols
Organization: Teknekron Communications Inc.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:57:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.025039.10820@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.205911.11111@tcsi.com> chuckm@claiborne.tcs.com (Chuck Meares) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug13.184931.19649@watson.ibm.com> jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin) writes:
>>>kill them and start over.  hell, it worked for God.
>>
>>Jason,
>>
>>
>>You sir, I definitely do NOT like.  
>
>Oh. how utterly Kruel of you!  Poor Jake, I bet he's crushed, probably
>won't be able to sleep for *WEEKS* over your rejection of him.  You
>are real meanie.  I mean his life *MUST* revolve around your approval.
>
>Ry Schwark
>ry@usl.com
>
>PS. Have you considered having your Kmart blue light special sense of
>humor replaced by one that works?

As a matter of fact, I posted this and then thought that maybe, just maybe
I COULD be missing the whole point.  Being 'sarcastically impaired' as I am
I tend to take things at face value.

I did not see smileys or any such things and assumed what I assumed.  Shoot
me for not having a proper net.humor quota, but my thoughts still stand.  We
can't expect to be treated the way we'd like if we aren't willing to make an
effort to reach out to the strayt community.

'Separate but Equal' didn't work in the south in the sixties and it isn't 
going to get us anywhere either.

Chuck

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Meares                               |
Systems & Network Administration           | PHONE: (510) 649-3649       
Teknekron Communication Systems            | INTERNET: chuckm@tcs.com
2121 Allston Way                           | 
Berkeley, California, 94704                |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed here are mine, mine, all mine ... I was never good
at sharing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: waal@cwi.nl (Peter de Waal)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: The lost language of cranes
Date: 14 Aug 92 09:51:32 GMT
Organization: CWI

Yesterday I watched "The lost language of cranes" on our national TV
network. I liked the movie, but I am left with the following question:
What was the meaning of the story of the boy who `spoke the language
of cranes' in relation to the coming out story of the father and his
son? Am I missing something obvious here?

---   Peter de Waal, CWI, Amsterdam   ---
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Pomo Afro Homos, was: la.motss
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:35:53 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

In article <2vgy9lk@rpi.edu>,
buckmr@vccsouth28.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
> roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips) writes:
> >but (thanks in part to soc.motss) I think I got
> >more than the average white male London resident did.
> Oh, this is cool! When Bryan and i saw them they said they had just come from
> playing London....

Did they mention the guy who cruised the loos in their t-shirt? :-)
-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"The best way to find something you've lost is to buy a replacement."
-- Ann Landers
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: I'm going to be in the bay area this weekend!
Summary: flakey reedie
Date: 15 Aug 92 06:46:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug15.064635.12195
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Aug14.202501.15133@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>hey, I just decided that I'm driving down to the bay area this weekend.

well, no I'm not. My ride fell through. I hope this hasn't
inconvenienced anyone, and I hope to get down there sometime soon.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/     What in this room is alive and what doesn't have life?
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: amz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky)
Subject: UNGAY GAY ad report (probably the last)
Followup-To: soc.motss
Summary: nothing more for now
Originator: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: cia [cabalistic investigative academy]
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 00:30:11 GMT

i have connected a motsser in boston with the _columbus alive!_
reporter who is looking into the UNGAY GAY ad, and our man on the
charles has confirmed enough of the details that the putative richard
(the ungay gay seeking same in any of at least eighteen cities
throughout the u.s. and canada) supplied about himself to make it
entirely plausible that this is in fact a 22-year-old student trying
to find *someone* *somewhere* on this continent who shares his
feelings and might share friendship and more.

you will note that we are all protecting his identity (i do not in
fact know it; only the columbus reporter and our motss-representative
in boston do, and the former will not reveal it, while the identity of
the latter has not been revealed to *you*).  there was never any
intent to harrass or harangue a real person who had managed to get
himself into such a tight mental corner of sexuality (only wes the
dude seems not to have been able to understand this, but still it
should be said clearly).  the ad sounded fishy as anything, and
invited paranoid interpretations - but we might very well have been
dead wrong.

now to call off the columbus stonewall union as well.  (they haven't
*done* anything yet, just thought about it.)  the current president has
been reading this newsgroup, but i'll e-mail him a copy of this very
posting just in case he misses it.

meanwhile, i have this picture of "richard" meeting his ad-date
"robert" in syracuse or denver or san luis obispo, each of them
anxiously checking the other out for any of the tell-tale signs
of effeminacy or crudeness that would make him just like most
other, unacceptable, "gays" (as they refer to us), and i don't
know whether to laugh or cry.  

arnold

From: elaine@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Elaine May)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 03:40:29 GMT
Subject: Calling US West :-)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
Newsgroups: soc.motss

Hello anyone from US West Communications...

I have a friend who is the president of the EAGLE Colorado Chapter.  She
would really like to get access to Usenet, but needs to get in touch with
some soc.motss'er inside US West (to find out access info).  If you'd like
to help her out, her name is Denise Beahm and her number is 896-8647.
Her e-mail id is corcs/dbeahm.  I suppose those of you who work there
understand this :-).
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: brent@syacus.acus.oz.au (Brent Davies)
Subject: Re: Programming for the World of Bob Sargol
Organization: Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Melbourne
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:19:25 GMT

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>The exercise is: we're the tv program, Sargol and his ilk
>are the viewers.  Our goal is to reach them in terms even
>they can comprehend and embrace.  Just to make it harder for
>us, we're to try to keep them from changing channels, so to
>speak.  We probably can't reach the George Bushes, but maybe
>we can reach the Barbara Bushes (I see she's more popular
>than he is at the moment, 62% to 36%).

>What say?

Yes, I think the idea's spot-on.  I'm as quick as anyone, when faced with
homophobia, to respond either with (a) flames, or (b) silence. Unfortunately,
neither tactic, when directed at *gay* homophobia, weans any homophobe from
his or her fear nor teaches us any useful thing.

This is a Family Issue.  So yes, by all means, let's treat it as one.

--Brent
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris)
Subject: Re: Republican Convention anagram
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:50:35 GMT

John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu writes:

>In light of the gay bashing done by Pat Buchanan on Monday night I give you
>this anagram for Republican National Convention:

>Puritanical ban on innocent love 


Weeeellllll, I *KNEW* there was some underlying meaning to the Republibigot 
Noxious Convolution.

jeff - who's really impressed with John_Graves.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan)
Subject: Re: RNC: Buchanan's speech
Organization: University of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 12:21:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.035856.16336@spdcc.com> anon@spdcc.com (Forwarded Anonymous Posting) writes:
>
>        I just saw parts of Pat Buchanan's speech live at the Republican
>Convention.  I couldn't stand to watch all of it.  He rambled on and on
>about morals and such.  The most offensive thing he said was that Clinton
>backed homosexuals, as if we are a bad disease.

I didn't catch quite the entire speech, but it was incredibly
hate-filled.  He mentioned "homosexuals" several times, and not behind
any sort of "family values" euphemism, either.  He came right out and
named the unnameable.  

>The conventioneers were
>booing at not only Clinton, but at us.

I saw at least one anti-gay-rights sign in the audience.

>I see a black man cheering during a part of
>the speech, but why is he doing so?  

I wondered what thoughts were going through his mind as he did so.

>The views of the fundamentalist
>Republican party are out of date and truly do not represent the views of
>the majority of Americans.

We hope.

--John
-- 
John Flanagan                          ||"Pretty boys
johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu           || with the sunshine faces
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.|| <mumble mumble>..."
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822    ||            -- My Bloody Valentine
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin)
Subject: Re: Presumption
Originator: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 14:44:40 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg):
>    Did you ever read "The Invisible Man" by Ralph Ellison?  :-)

umm, i believe that's _Invisible Man_ by Ralph Ellison.  the
noun-determiner is left off so the title doesn't refer to a
particular invisible man.  or, maybe so it won't conflict with
that *other* work, a minor consequence at best... :-)
-- 
Jason Coughlin ( jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com )
Queer Without A Cause!
"I find myself suddenly in the world, and I recognize that I have one
right alone: that of demanding human behavior of the other." -- Fanon
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: St. Cole Porter (was Re: Homoerotic bible quotes?)
Date: 13 Aug 1992 19:02:12 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug13.172313.15145@microsoft.com> 
frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney) writes:

| BTW, another Merman number that is a little out of the ordinary and
| included in this set is a duet from "Panama Hattie" (I think that's
| right), sung with a young girl. It's a variation of the let's-be-pals
| song that Cole did so well. [...]

Let's Be Buddies.  The young girl is Joan Carroll.  Does the set
include Make It Another Old Fashioned?  That's my favorite Panama
Hattienumber.

Arne
From: hopkins@turing.ac.uk (Don Hopkins)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Attention Kmart, Wal-Mart...
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:03:58 GMT
	<1992Aug9.222448.23348@tandon.com>
Organization: The Turing Institute, Ltd.

tdbear@tandon.com (Tom Barrett) writes:

   Between the homophobic Dayton-Hudon Target and the seemingly
   equal homophobic KMART, I don't know quite were to shop.  Now
   if someone tells me that JCPenny is homohating, I'm going to
   have to start making my own clothes using wool from local
   lesbian sheep ranchers :)

Good idea!  That kind of wool is much less frizzy, since the sheep
aren't as nervous.

	-Don
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: wearing symbols
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Reply-To: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 10:27:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.172510.15048@cis.ohio-state.edu>
     amz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky) writes:

   [ I love Arnold's stories... ]

>shucks, they don't understand the symbols you flash at them and
>then come all unglued at minor bits of jewelry.  how *are* we
>going to get them educated?

   Wear the symbols in combination.  Wear them in jarringly incongruous
situations.  For a while it was very popular for "pro-lifers" to wear a
tiny pair of silver feet as a lapel pin.  The idea being people would
ask about it, and the wearer would reply that it was a fetus' feet
after 'x' weeks.

   I did that at work for a while; one of those tiny enamel pink
triangles, on _everything_ I wore.  Eventually, people asked.  Then I
worked my way over to a leatherpride pin.  That was fun; fortunately it
was a contractual job and I was gone in two weeks anyway.

   My most interesting encounter with symbols was late after the Pride
Festival; I'd run out of pop, and low on caffeine, sugar and water (it
was a _scorcher_ of a day) I wandered down to the 7-11 across the
street.  I was still wearing my BISEXUAL T-shirt, with the two
triangles interposed.

   Now, the fellow who works the midnight shift at the 7-11 is not one
I would categorize as tolerant.  Young, noisy, from the gang-ridden
sector of town, he would often tell me about his problems with his
girlfriend.

   He never batted an eye.  About two weeks later he told me he'd
broken up with her.  "Well, it looks like I'm available again.  But to
women only!" he added after a laugh.  I thought it was cool... and
surprisingly pleasant.

>arnold

         Elf !!!
-- 
Elf Sternberg    __   |     I have looked into the abyss, and the abyss
elf@halcyon.com  \/   | has looked into me.  Neither liked what we saw.
elf@polari.online.com |                              - Brother Theodore
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: History (was Re: Snaps (no, not *that* kind, Elizabeth) (was Re: New queer terminology) (was Re: The media, again)
Date: 21 Aug 1992 17:19:22 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug21.235554.373@reed.edu> 
nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
> In article <l9arc9INN709@mizar.usc.edu> 
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> >My 21st birthday was in 1976 -- that glorious year of the bicentenial, 
> >the punk explosion, and, closer to my heart, DISCO DISCO DISCO.
>
> So tell me, Arne dear - did you ever wear polyester?

No, never.  Never ever.  I wore what every young gay man wore 
in those days: painter's pants and those green Army-surplus pants 
(they were *so* comfortable), Levi's (blue, black, and *white*), 
parachute pants (they were *so* ugly), white t-shirts, plaid shirts, 
IZODs, hooded sweatshirts.  In the *early* '70s, I wore platform shoes,
rhinestoned t-shirts, and all that glitter stuff, but I was also
quite fond of my collection of Hawaiian shirts and bowling shirts 
(my favorite, for a bowling club called Leper Colony, once belonged 
to someone named Lester Purcell).  I wore black Converse high-tops 
and Dr. Scholl's sandals and huaraches throughout the '70s and way
into the '80s.  But never, ever, ever did I wear polyester.  And
I never owned a tambourine, either.

Arne
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: sexual attraction and paraphilias
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:23:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug15.212316.19022
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Aug14.153143.19727@unlinfo.unl.edu> cbe@unlinfo.unl.edu (cbe) writes:
>My use of "immutable" was considered.  As I recall from my readings
>in psychology regarding paraphilias, it is accepted that they cannot
>be changed.  However, I hasten to add that I claim, at best, a
>layman's understanding and would welcome elaboration by an expert.

what's an expert? Last time I checked, no one claimed to have much of
an understanding of people's ideas of sexual attraction.

I find the notion of "paraphilia" to be more applicable to rats than
humans. It's too simplified. 

Personally, there are a few characteristics that I am likely to find
attractive, and there are a few I am likely to find unattractive. The
majority of them are not physical, and none of them are overwhelming.

That being said, I have little control over who I find attractive. If
someone could point out to me "you like this and this, but not this" I
would be most grateful. I suspect it's not easy.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                   There is absolutely no other possibility
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: New queer terminology (was Re: The media, again)
Date: 16 Aug 92 22:58:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug16.225820.13089
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <Bt3KHt.3sC@sti.com> coyote@sti.com (Ron Lussier) writes:
>Speaking for myself, I find it really amusing how gay terminology has changed
>over the few years that I have been a member of the community.

>(Translation for QN:  Gay = Queer
>		      Community = Tribe)

Well I won't touch "Tribe" for "Community" - I think it's sort of
silly myself. 

But "Queer" is most definitely *not* "Gay". It's not just a different
word for the concept, it's a new consciousness.

Let's do a portrayal of extremes:

To me, "Gay" means an apolitical white man in his middle thirties with
a clone moustache. He wears nice jeans (with the crotch worn by
sandpaper), goes to the bars to hang out with his friends and has
exquisite taste in furniture.

To me, "Queer" means a young androgynous person of any race in his or
her early 20s. He wears slightly beaten jeans, bright white t-shirts
that say "I'm a faggot", and a black leather jacket with black on
orange stickers in Antique Olive Bold. She wears black denim pants, a
dark loose shirt, and a black leather jacket with black on orange
stickers in Antique Olive Bold. He or she goes to protests to hang out
with his or her friends, doesn't own furniture but has great taste in
music.

That's the extreme personal stereotypes. On to the real reasons why
"queer" is different from "gay".

gay is apolitical
queer is radical

gay is exclusive to homosexual men
queer is inclusive of women and gender/sex minorities

gay is from a different era, the time of civil rights, Vietnam, women's
  lib, gay lib.
queer is new, challenging. The time of AIDS, Ronald Reagan, Jesse Helms

gay is a lifestyle
queer is a philosophy - we have our own literature, our own literary
  analysis, our own political understanding.

I agree that "queer" is a fashion, but it's a fashion that reflects a
new time.

Is "queer" postmodern?
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/       This is the time, and this is the record of the time
From: tdober@llnl.gov (TDO)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: wearing symbols
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:03:47 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: llnl

In article <AAG.92Aug14180847@artemis.aber.ac.uk>, aag@aber.ac.uk (Angela
Gilham) wrote:

[stuff deleted]

> I've had the great "Why do you wear that tee-shirt debate" (prompted 
> by a Bisexual Pride tee-shirt),

Suggested response:
"Because I like it."

> I've had "Are you sure that this is the right time to be wearing 
> that?" (also prompted by a Bisexual Pride tee-shirt),

Suggested response:
"Yes."

> I've had "I don't particularly like that earring" (a doube venus) and

Suggested response:
"I'm soooooooo sorry! My day is ruined! Excuse me, I think
I'll go shoot myself."

Alternate response:
"Thank you for sharing."

> "You know, you're a deviant" (the fundie reaction 
> to the cumulative effect of my gay and bi tee-shirts).

Suggested response:
"Thank you! That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me!"


> Ang 


TDO
--
#include "StdDisclaimer.h"

Pain, like time, is going to come on regardless. Question is, what glorious
moments can you win from life in addition to the pain? -- Lois McMaster
Bujold, _Barrayar_
Newsgroups: soc.motss