HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ajross@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrew Ross)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: RE-MACS COST TOO MUCH (NOT!)
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:08:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc10.ajross.715572489

bberqu@sagpd1 () writes:

>In article <ewright.714853873@convex.convex.com>, ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>> In <714823281.F00001@blkcat.UUCP> Kaz.Karl@f1138.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Kaz Karl) writes:
>> 
>> >Oh, be real...Perhaps you can buy an si for $2500, but that 
>> >clunky machine is the equivilant of the 396SX I just got for 
>> >a client for six hundred new...
>> 
>> Be real yourself.  I use a 20 MHz 386 at work -- A real 386,
>> not the crippleware SX version.  (There's no such thing as
>> a 396, by the way.)  We paid over $7000 for the hardware and
>> software.  After struggling with this machine and its miserable

>I just bought an LCII, and wouldn't trade it for a "240SX", maybe 
>for a 300ZX.  I use PCs and Macs at work and hate every second I'm on those 
>"396SX"s. I sure do wish all the PC guru's (cough) would get their facts 
>straight, And by the way if these people hate macs so much, why are they 
>reading this news group anyway, go back to comp.sys.pc of junk. 

>BB

>Remember ********* PC *********** JUST SAY NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uh, oh.  It looks like Mr. Wright has spawned.  Anyone who has to HATE
working on a computer should consider a new line of work.  Just my $.02

Seriously, If you read our posts, most of us PC advocates are only trying
to clear up what we see as misconceptions in the Mac community.  Really,
folks, I LIKE the Mac.  I USE the Mac.  I LIKE USING the Mac.  That is not
the issue.  As I see it, PC's have a whole array of advantages, most
notably cost, that are often all too easily ignored by Mac users for what
are essentially aesthetic, and not practical reasons.

And lighten up, folks.  If you don't want to read us, put us in your kill
file.  Don't get yourselves all upset over a computer system.

Andy Ross
ajross@husc.harvard.edu
From: long@mcntsh.enet.dec.com (Rich Long)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Mac Zone experiences?
Date: 25 Aug 92 19:46:28 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Hi folks,

 I've been thinking about getting the Excel 4.0 upgrade, and it looks like Mac
 Zone has the best price ($88). I've never ordered from them, so I'm wondering
 what you think? Any problems?

 Thanks,
 Rich 

Richard Long			long@mcntsh.enet.dec.com
			  -or-	...!decwrl!mcntsh.enet.dec.com!long   		
			  -or-	long%mcntsh.dec@decwrl.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
From: jbaron@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jeffrey Baron)
Subject: Plus Monitor problems...fixable?
Summary: horizontal line
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:49:40 GMT

Hi world.

I have a friend who has a Mac Plus (actually a Mac512KE w/Mac Rescue Board
and 4 Meg on Board) which has had intermittant screen problems.  For ages,
the machine has had a horizontal 'flickery line thing' which we have never
managed to diagnose.  Now, in addition to that, the entire screen is losing
vertical momentum and is just showing up as a horizontal beam of light.

I've seen the problem before on another friend's Mac 512K, and he took it
into the shop, plus I've seen a solution to the problem written up in a book
which none of the Bloomington bookstores seem to carry any more.

Can anyone post or mail the solution to this horrible problem, apart from
the ATS TTL adaptor card which makes the internal monitor a moot point? 
(That option is also being considered)

Thanks in advance.

(.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.)/ I heard two claps of thunder         \ 
Jeffrey Sittenfield Baron  (_  | this afternoon.                      |
b.k.a. Phaedrus            -__-| Well, we hear - sometimes we see.    |
Indiana University Psychology  | which doesn't say                    |
jbaron@silver.ucs.indiana.edu  | there is a world, or we are.         |
('X'X'X'X'X'X'X'X'X'X'X'X'X'X')\ But something is.    - William Bronk /
From: Scott Tilden <stilden@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:46 PDT
Subject: Re: My Mac no longer plays sounds!  Any
Nf-ID: #R:HARDIN.92Aug20102539@dino.cad.mc:975143269:cdp:1364700010:000:325
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!stilden    Aug 28 18:46:00 1992


A silent Mac sometimes may be a blessing. HOWEVER, you'll probably want to
choose when it falls silent. Try inserting a microplug into the speaker jack on
the back of your Mac and then removing it. That connection, designed to disconnect
internal sound when an external jack is plugged, may be dysfunctional.

--Scott Tilden
From: DMittman@Beowulf.JPL.NASA.GOV (David Mittman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: Only Mac Does It
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:58:12 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory

In article <ggvy=6l@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@rs6325.ecs.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
> 
> In article <la4st0INN42f@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>, fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:
> [various stuff about Windows NT deleted]
> |> 
> |> None of them define what "NT" means.  Please?
> |> 
> 
> "New Technology", I believe.
> 
> [more deletions]
> -- 

Actually, it means "Not There". :)

(Asbestos underwear engaged.)

- David Mittman
From: terjer@ifi.unit.no (Terje Rydland)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: MACS COST TOO MUCH (NOT!)
Date: 31 Aug 92 07:21:00 GMT
Organization: Ifi, University of Trondheim / AVH

In article <92240.131648ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET> ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET writes:
>The machine I referred to in my previous posting had SCSI and a trinitron
>monitor. Sound I/O would not blow up the price very much and before I would
buy
>some small monitors I would buy one 19" or 21" monitor, but this point is for
>you. But gigabytes of RAM ??? Let me quote from my IIsi manual:
>"Speicher: 3MB RAM, erweiterbar auf 17MB" which means the maximum is 0.017GB.
>That sure _is_ gigabytes but not very many of them :-)
>
>Michael Bode.
>

System 7 supports up to 1 GB RAM (32 bit address bus) . Of course you cannot
put that 
much RAM into the  machine from physical reasons (and you wouldn't need it),
but the possibility is there.

Terje Rydland
From: stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: ewright is full of Bull.....
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:29:38 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.misc
Organization: Murasami Labs

Edward V. Wright wrote:

> In <92241.100910REE700A@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> REE700A@MAINE.MAINE.EDU
> Jeffrey C. Andle writes:

> >     So, Unless E. Wright starts throwing facts & figures instead of
> >juvenile temper tantrums and personal slurs (which, unlike this one,
> >are unfounded) I, for one, will not even read his posts.  I encourage
> >others to do the same and save this debate from a lot of hot air.

> Well, now, isn't that special.  Yes, Mr. Andle, your title shows
> just how mature and reasoned your opinion is.  I will, however,
> do as you suggest and put an end to all this "hot air."  I believe
> that it is a violation of Internet rules to post email messages
> without the writer's knowledge and permission.  So, can anyone
> tell me how I go about getting this infant kicked off the net?

Since "it" is at a .edu, write to its sys admins (try 
postmaster@maine.maine.edu), explain the situation, and ask for
an offical response. The worst that will happen is nothing, but
sys admins at .edu sites tend to love to lay the law down on the 
students.

James
From: mikey@nrc.com (Mikey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: POWERBOOK SCREEN PROTECTOR
Date: 25 Aug 92 22:11:10 GMT
Organization: NRC
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6BFFE711A05CA7A@homer.nrc.com>
X-Xxdate: Tue, 25 Aug 92 15:12:49 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d8

SAVE YOUR POWERBOOK FROM DAMAGE NOW!

Enter the Mac Powerbook Screen Protector.

This device sits comfortably over the top of your Mac Powerbook screen.
The screen adheres to the Powerbook by means of non-marring removable
adhesive strips.  The protecting screen is clear and shields the Powerbook
screen from scratches, fingerprints, smears and bugs.  

Yes, bugs...

If you have ever used your Powerbook at night with the backlight on, 
you know that bugs are attracted to light.  We've actually seen a unit
that had an insect that had crawled into the seams of the backlight, and
the replacement cost was enormous.

Did you know, that to replace the screen on the Powerbook 100
would cost $790, on the Powerbook 140 it is $880, and for the Powerbook
you will pay a whopping $1600! All these costs are WITHOUT LABOR!.

Every precaution should be taken to protect your Powerbook screen. 
Since I started using this screen protector, I have felt so much more
comfortable using my Powerbook, that I use it more that my home Mac IIci.

This protective device has a cost of only $29.95.  Call now for your
order.

To order:
Internet mail address: mikey@nrc.com
 (805) 389-0090 Leave a message...
Mike Goodglick
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: MACS COST TOO MUCH (NOT!)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:46:48 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Aug26.191226.24536@mmm.serc.3m.com> usdta004@mmm.serc.3m.com (Timothy S. Shea) writes:

>I had to correct this.  IBM has NEVER   NEVER charged for upgrades to
>OS/2.  And according to IBM officials they never will.  

Very reassuring, considering IBM's track record in keeping promises.
After all, they are the company with the no-layoff policy, right?
Of course, they only said they wouldn't charge for upgrates to OS/2.
Not that they wouldn't change the name to OS/3... 

>If you bought version 1.0 then you can upgrade to version 2.x free.

That's not so much an upgrade as a factory recall. :-)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
From: alen@crash.cts.com (Alen Shapiro)
Subject: Re: RTF definition/interpretation...somebody goofed!!? HELP!! (medium long)
Date: 25 Aug 92 22:33:54 GMT

In <6627@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) writes:

>> About stylesheets, a stylesheet must first be declared in the RTF header.
>> When
>> a stylesheet is applied to a paragraph the entire stylesheet definition
>> must be
>> repeated for the paragraph just putting the stylesheet ID in the
>> paragraph will
>> not work.

>I submit that this is not the way a style should work (nor is my experience
>that this is the way they DO work - when they work).  There is no point
>to having a stylesheet at all if the definition of the style must be
>repeated in each paragraph to which it is supposed to apply.

You are absolutely right...and absolutely wrong (boy now I'm really confused).

Yes...they should not work this way and,
No....that is the way that Microsoft Word implements the RTF specification.

      An RTF style that is specified within a text group merely informs
      the "reader" (in this case MSWord) that that named style is in effect.
      The "reader" (MSWord) does NOT apply the style at this point. It just
      associated a style name with the text block. Either the RTF "writer"
      must repeat the details of the style spec in-line, or the MSWord
      user must go through the document and "reapply" all the named styles.

>What is the point of a stylesheet, if not to be able to select a style
>simply by referring to the style ID?  If you have to repeat the definition
>each time, then the stylesheet itself if vestigial.

You got it. You should see the extra work I've had to do to write an RTF
"writer" that worked with style sheets. If the user wants to change the
definition of a style in an RTF doc, ALL uses of that style must be modified
(not just the style definition at the head of the doc.) Means that to ensure
document continuity my "writer" has to regenerate the entire
documentation suite for any simple style change. GRRRRRR.

Seems that RTF was designed for document transportability not document
generation. Shame they forgot to come up with a filename convention across
OS architectures...like inventing a computer language and side-stepping
the details of an i/o model. :-)

>Paul DuBois
>dubois@primate.wisc.edu

--alen
alen@crash.cts.com

ps on the same subject...I've submitted a report to MS (by fax) and
copied it to this newsgroup, left out a couple of points but I'll
clarify those when MS gets in touch.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
From: jackr@wpd.sgi.com (John "Jack" Repenning)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: StartupScreen Changer: Where?
Date: 29 Aug 92 16:13:51 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: /usr/people/jackr/.organization

I remember someone posting a utility that would rotate the Sys7
StartupScreen from a folder full of them, every time you start up.
But I just went looking for it in info-mac and couldn't find it.
Doubtless, because I can't remember what it's called!

Would some kind soul remind me where to find this?  Email would be
fine, thanks.



Jack Repenning			1L-875	     jackr@wpd.sgi.com
Silicon Graphics, Inc.		            Off:(415) 390-3027
Software Magic Division			    Fax:(415) 969-2314
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
From: usdta004@mmm.serc.3m.com (Timothy S. Shea)
Subject: Re: MACS COST TOO MUCH (NOT!)
Organization: 3M - St. Paul, MN  55144-1000 US
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 01:14:32 GMT

From article <ewright.714869208@convex.convex.com>, by ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright):
> In <1992Aug26.191226.24536@mmm.serc.3m.com> usdta004@mmm.serc.3m.com (Timothy S. Shea) writes:
> 
>>I had to correct this.  IBM has NEVER   NEVER charged for upgrades to
>>OS/2.  And according to IBM officials they never will.  
> 
> Very reassuring, considering IBM's track record in keeping promises.
> After all, they are the company with the no-layoff policy, right?
> Of course, they only said they wouldn't charge for upgrates to OS/2.
> Not that they wouldn't change the name to OS/3... 
>
Oh please...  I take it we have some personal against IBM?  IBM has an
excellent track record on keeping promises and they make some excellent
products.  IBM has thousands of products and you blowing them away
because of one that YOU feel is not a very good product.

>>If you bought version 1.0 then you can upgrade to version 2.x free.
> 
> That's not so much an upgrade as a factory recall. :-)

Your opinion...
-- 
  internet: tsshea@mmm.com              timothy shea 
compuserve: 76300,1230                  Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing
From: pricec@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (price carl wayne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: MACS COST TOO MUCH (NOT!)
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:57:12 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University, Computer Science Dept.

>I realize you can probably get a machine for the price you mention, 
>but I doubt seriously that it would be of very high quality.  The memory
>alone would set you back about $600 (USD), which leaves
>about $1900 for the remainder of your configuration.  A *good* monitor
>runs a good $500, so you're down to $1400.  Subtract another $600 for the
>200 MB drive, $800 left over.  And for $800, you're going to get a good
>quality 486/50 *with* a SCSI card and a good video card.  Yeah, right.

>Oh, yeah, will this machine be FCC Class B certified (or its foreign
>radio frequency emissions standard equivalent)?   Oh, so you don't mind
>trashing up your neighbor's TV?  (Side note: testing a machine for
>certification isn't cheap.)  And will it come with built-in networking?
>Plug-and-play video (I have yet to see this)?
>
>Basically, you're comparing (literally) Apples to oranges.  For a PC
>made with the quality of the Mac, you're going to have to go with one
>of the major vendors, Compaq, Dell, and Gateway (the cheaper ones; IBM
>*will* get blown out).  These guys know that good quality cases, materials,
>and components are bought at a price.  THey're relatively inexpensive,
>but not to the level you cite for your hypothetical machine.  Personally,
>I think *way* too many people are ignoring the radio emissions of the
>cheapo clones.  They *will* mess with your neighbor's television.


Yes the machine I was quoting was FCC Class B (I didn't drive to the store
and check their certification, but it was advertised as class B).  And the
parts used generally come from the same manufactures as in the Gateway's
etc. plus you can get local service (not to knock gateway, that's what I 
have, but then when I bought my machine they were one of the cheaper 
machines on the market).  No the machine doesn't come with built in 
networking, but on a single home machine why do I need it?  If I had two
PC's a good peer to peer for both (ethernet) would run me around $400-$500
making an ethernet PC still cheaper than a local talk Mac.

Oh BTW, the 486/50 price I quoted was from a local newspaper.  A real 
machine from a real store.  No "hypothetical" machine.
--Carl

-- 
Carl W. Price		 	*      * Work keeps us from three evils:     * 
Computer Engineering Student	*      * boredom, vice, and need.            *
Oregon State University		*      *                                     *
pricec@prism.cs.orst.edu	*      *       ---Voltaire                   *
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
From: gurman@umbra.gsfc.nasa.gov (Joseph B. Gurman)
Subject: Re: Too many INIT icons
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:28:35 GMT

yuan@asis.unimelb.EDU.AU (William Yuan) writes:

>cory@enigami.mv.com (Cory Kempf) writes:

>>In article <gurman.714932342@umbra.gsfc.nasa.gov> (comp.sys.mac.misc), gurman@umbra.gsfc.nasa.gov (Joseph B. Gurman) writes:
>>>
>>>    I seem to remember that there's an app or cdev or something that
>>>arranges INIT icons in rows on startup so they don't disappear off the
>>>right-hand edge of the screen. Does anybody remember the name and an ftp
>>>location?

>IconWrap 1.2 (1989) by Ken McLeod is freeware and will do exactly what you
>want. It works with system 6.0.7, but I haven't tried it with system 7.0 (yet!)

    Thanks to William and the others who pointed me to IconWrap, which
seems to work fine with 7.0.1/Tuneup 1.1.1 --- so far, at least.

						Joe Gurman
--
J.B. Gurman / Solar Physics Branch / NASA Goddard Space Flight Center /
Greenbelt MD 20771 USA / gurman@umbra.gsfc.nasa.gov
| Federal employees are prohibited from holding opinions under the Hatch Act.|
| Therefore, any opinions expressed herein are somebody else's.              |
From: ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: MACS COST TOO MUCH (NOT!)
Date: 28 Aug 92 09:20:23 GMT
 <ewright.714845483@convex.convex.com> <1992Aug27.202129.12780@CS.ORST.EDU>
 <ewright.714954330@convex.convex.com>
Organization: KFA  Forschungszentrum Juelich

>Okay.  Let's measure performance based on some simple, but meaningful,
>task.  Now, insert a floppy disk into your computer and change its
>name from "A:" to "Price Carl Wayne's floppy."  Time yourself to see
>how long it takes.  I'll do the same thing.  You have a decided advantage,
>since my Mac is not here at work and it will take me a few hours to get
>home.  I'll be generous enough to include that time to my benchmark.  :-)
>
Where is the problem ? Do you think I can`t do this on my PC ?

>Well, if you think that benchmark is unfair, how about we try this one:
>create an icon that you can click on to simultaneously launch several
>programs and documents, possibly located on several disks (even on
>a network).
>
Again where is the problem ? Other that I don`t have a network.

>Performance is not just how many many MHz your processor executes.
>
>>Now, let's get into the cost thing.  To buy a 486/50 with a fast 200MB
>>SCSI drive (yes, most high end PC do use SCSI for performance), 16MB of
>>ram (70ns), SVGA monitor (1024x768 w/256 colors max resolution), 14" monitor
>> OS and a mouse would cost me $2500 (from a local store, this is not even
>>going to the mail order places where I could shave off around $500
>
>And how much would it cost you to get a PC that can *use* that 16M
>without limitations such as expanded memory, extended memory, upper
>memory, or segmentation.  Better budget at least $10M for your own
>R&D department to do what IBM and Microsoft haven't been able to do.
>Hm, $4000 vs. $10,002,500, and you still say the Macintosh is not cheap? :-)

And again WHERE THE HELL IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT ALL ???
The above mentioned PC can do all that with no problem at all. So what are you
talking about ?

Michael Bode.
From: ajross@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrew Ross)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: MACS COST TOO MUCH (NOT!)
Date: 29 Aug 92 16:00:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc10.ajross.715104040
 <1992Aug28.201740.18893@CS.ORST.EDU><ewright.715040511@convex.convex.com><1992
 Aug29.041526.1212@CS.ORST.EDU> <CKD.92Aug29034346@loiosh.eff.org>

ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:

>price> == price carl wayne <pricec@prism.CS.ORST.EDU> 

> price> OOPS, wrong again.  The 640kB barrier is in DOS, not the Intel
> price> hardware with a 32-bit OS, in my case OS/2, this limit *does not
> price> exist*.  I know.  In my computer right now there is 8MB of ram,
> price> and I assure you I need no tricks to access that memory.

>Sounds great.  How much software is there for OS/2?  How much of it
>takes advantage of the new user interface?  How likely is it that you
>can run software that was written in 1988, say, and have it still use
>all that 8M?

Answers:
1. A bunch of stuff written for OS/2 version 1.x.  This is all written to
the 16 bit API, but is still native OS/2 software.

2. All of it (except for some character based ports) uses PM (Presentation
Manager, the interface library).  Very little as yet is written to full
compatibility with the WPS (WorkPlace Shell, analogous to and IMHO better
than the finder).

3. 100% Likely.  In fact, OS/2's virtual memory allows you to fool DOS
applications into thinking they have as much memory as you want.  Remember
that DOS apps have been using more than 640k for quite some time now. 
Also OS/2 runs more windows apps than Windows 3.1 (it runs windows 2.x
apps too, which MS Windows 3.x doesn't).  In fairness, it won't run too
biggies:  Mathematica and AutoCAD for Windows use a 32 bit hack that is
incompatible with OS/2.  Saddly, there are also no plans for OS/2 2.0
versions of these applications. 

If you want to talk future hopes:  Borland, Wordperfect, and Lotus have
all promised ports of their full application lines.  Lotus has even hinted
that its new development efforts are concentrated at OS/2.  Microsoft of
course is ignoring the whole thing in favor of its own Windows NT ("New
Technology", "Not There", etc...) which, if it delivers on its promises,
will be even better than OS/2.

This has now been my second lecture.  Obviously, drivel such as this has
no place in a Mac group.  It is my opinion, though, that far too many
opinions are being stated backed up by information on the PC that is
either dated or incorect.  Since most sane people have probably stopped
reading this thread, I leave my furthur posts up to the rest of you (us
PC/Mac jock/fanatic weenies).  Do I stop?  E-Mail is appreciated.

Andy Ross
ajross@husc.harvard.edu
                                                A dumb PC jock who really
                                                LIKES Mac's, just can't
                                                afford one.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
From: 11437294@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (NATHAN WHEAT)
Subject: Re: A Petty Question
Organization: Faculty of Engineering, Monash University 
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 03:46:40 GMT

>Why is it that the little Mac logo on my startup screen ("Welcome to
>Macintosh") no longer is in color?  I recently had the logic board replaced
>on my LC (the sockets weren't holding my SIMMs in place), and since then
>that logo has been black and white.  Can it be changed back?

I think the problem here is the Parameter RAM (PRAM).  The old PRAM settings 
you had on the old board are not transferred to the new one.  This can most 
likely be fixed by going to the monitors control panel, setting colours to B&
W then changing them back to 256.  Play around with this and it should 
change it back, it did for me (I zapped my PRAM).

Nathan.
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.misc:15610 comp.sys.mac.programmer:14664 comp.sys.mac.system:11371