From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The Christian MA
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:58:46 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1992Aug12.113042.25326@relay.nswc.navy.mil> snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:
>It has been my honor to read this list since its inception.  R.M-A
>has been a blessing to me :-)  All the great advice, the sorely
>needed rebukes and the encouragement,   Now I have something on my heart,
>that I want to share with you.  I am neither a superior MA or superior
>Christian, but I am one of each.   I am going to touch on the gay-MA thread,
>which I am sure we would all rather leave buried, including me, but that isn't
>my main point.  It would have been much better if an older, more advanced,
>more worthy soul were to say these things, but since one never came forth I
>have to try.
> 
>
>  "Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one
>  receives the prize?  Run in such a way that you may win......" [1]
>
>Did anyone see the photo of the distance runner from USA who placed
>5th, sitting alone on the track, one shoe off, in anguish, she had
>run, but had failed to reach the prize.
>
>  "..... I run in such a way as not without aim; I box in such a way as
>  not beating the air; but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest
>  possibly after I have taught others I myself should be disqualified." [1]
>
>When you run do you picture your goal or do you just run?
>When you do kata, do you picture the imaginary attackers, or do you
>just go through the motions?
>
>Whether you study Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, or Kung Fu, do you know you
>are preparing for combat?  Remember the kidney punch thread?  Every
>moment in the doj* must be total commitment.  Life is just like this.
>When I lost sight of this basic core of the martial arts, I was
>quickly humbled.
>
>If you have kept your goal and purpose clearly in mind, you are not
>just strengthening your body, but you are preparing your spirit.
>
>I fought a fairly intense battle this past Sat., it went on a long time,
>much longer than the two minute battles I prepare for.  As I write this
>Mon. evening I am STILL TIRED; spent.  But I am not bruised.  How can
>this be that I fought for over an hour and my arms and legs show
>no bruises?
>
>It wasn't all that late, maybe 9:00 P.M., the night was cool, Bob
>my friend and I were walking the streets of Fredericksburg.  We do
>volunteer work for a music club called Street Cry, it is a place for
>kids, loud unbearable music, no smoking or alchohol.  We work as
>greeters, say hi, break up arguments, look in the dark places for kids
>trying to make more kids, sweep, mop, attempt to help fix broken hearts,
>you get the drift.  Bob kept saying he was looking for a person with an
>appointment with destiny (I hate it when he does that :-).  We walked
>and walked, picked up trash, looked in all the dark places.  Finally
>I was able to convince him to sit down and wait.  It wasn't two minutes
>later that we say them, two big guys coming up the hill towards the
>club.  The one guy was really big, had on a save-the-rainforest grateful
>dead t-shirt.  I don't remember what Bob said, but the battle was
>joined.

Are you telling us that you and your pal Bob deliberately provoked a 
fight with two guys because you disliked the way they conduct their
personal lives? I fail to see how that is in accord with the dictates
of either your religion or your martial art:

	"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

	"Karate ni sente nashi"

(Ok, ok, I know you do TKD...but Gen. Choi's nidan in Shotokan ought to count
for something...)

Pick one. They're both telling you the same thing.

If that's *not* what happened why don't you elaborate on the *facts* of
the incident instead of drowning us in bellicose metaphor.

>You know it wouldn't be so bad to be sitting the door of a christian
>music outreach and have to deal with two athiest, homosexuals (their
>labels not mine) who could durn near recite the dead sea scrolls
>backwards, but a half hour earlier (Bob had split off alone looking
>for his appointment with destiny) and I was up to my armpits in neo-nazis
>complete with iron cross and full of support for apartied.  Three of
>them actually left the park and came back to Street Cry ... must have
>stayed a good ten minutes :-)
>
>What am I driving at?  What Rec.Martial-Arts thread am I addressing?

Good question.

>The question comes up, what about gays in the dojang and we fall all
>over ourselves either demeaning them or striving to be ever so politically
>correct (though we won't admit to either I'm sure).  

There are some of us who aren't doing either, Stephen. We just try to 
accept people as people...

>I don't have anything against a person who is a homosexual, any more than
>I have anything against a person who is a neo-nazi or a person who deals
>drugs, the people are just fine with me, but I am very concerned about
>the behavior.

I am very concerned about someone who suggests he has the right to inflict
violence on another human being because he is an instrument of divine
retribution. Maybe that's not what you mean to say...but your prose style
makes it rather hard to discern.

>  "Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded
>  the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and
>  they called to Lot and said to him, where are the men who came to you
>  tonight?  Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."[3]
>
>
>Before you jump to your keyboard to royally flame me, and rise to
>the defense of homosexuality, think carefully about the side you
>are choosing.  You want to talk about flaming, these folk in Sodom
>really got FLAMED!

Yeah, well God didn't tell Lot to wander the streets picking fights, either.
If the Almighty wants to incinerate Fredericksburg (a rather unlikely turn
of events, IMHO), I'm sure He can manage it without your assistance.

>  "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
>  kingdom of God?  do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor
>  idolators, nor adulterers, nor effminate, nor homosexuals"
                                  ^^^^^^^^^

Gee, Stephen...does this mean that women aren't welcome there either? ;-)
>
>So what exactly is my point?

Please tell us. I haven't been able to figure it out yet.

>  "Let no one deceive you, for it will not come unless apostasy comes
>  first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction"[4]
>
>  "And you know what restrains him now so that in his time he may be
>  revealed.  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only
>  he who now restrains will do so untill he is taken out of the
>  way" [5]
>
>My point is this.  The two men who came to Street Cry were pretty
>powerful.  If you are discerning, you can feel the bonds being
>loosened.  I just found out Soon the faithful will be taken
>from you and there will be no restraint at all.  

>It will be 100%
>permissable to have homosexuals in the dojang an neo nazis in the
>parks.  

Stephen, I don't know how to tell you this but we have a Bill of Rights
in this country. It's been permissible to have all sorts of people in
the parks (as long as they don't bother anybody else) for the last couple
of centuries. I'm not too thrilled about neo-nazis in the parks, myself -
family history, you know. You consider them to be dangerous, violent
fanatics - so do I. Some people on this newsgroup probably have the same 
feelings about *you*. Where do you draw the line? Who decides? Whose 
prejudice do we give the force of law?

>Soon after this though, it is going to get a bit rough.

Stephen, you still haven't told us what you *did*. Why are you 
reluctant to do so? Did you have a verbal disagreement with these 
fellows? Did they "crash" your establishment? Were they rude? Were
*you* rude? Did they get violent? Did *you* get violent? Who hit
whom (if anyone)? Why? Were you looking for an excuse to whack these
guys because you found them personally repugnant? If they were 
trespassing, did you ask them to leave, call the police, or did
you just beat the crap out of them because you figured that's what God
wanted you to do?  Who started the situation and *why*?  What *was*
the situation, anyway?

>Stephen King's writings will seem like a bedtime story.

No, they'll seem like the semi-literate drivel they are.

>What is to come is inevitable, but as lawlessness increases we
>accelerate the pace of events *** my opinion ***.

Which laws? Who decides? The U.S. is a *secular* state, not a theocracy.
Wearing a cross and a dobok doesn't give you the right to bash people you 
dislike, anymore than wearing a swastika and a bedsheet does.

Stephen, I respect your faith but I find the notion of imposing it on
others through violence or intimidation absolutely contemptible. It *sounds*
like that's what happened - if not, please correct my misunderstanding.

>I removed some words from the first quotation.  They say that though
>the atheletes in the games compete for a perishable wreath, we
>run our race for in imperishable one.  That is the good news, Christians
>don't have to (read shouldn't) lead a boring, unhappy, uneventful life.

Right. You can always go clobber a couple of "sinners" for entertainment.

>Good clean fun, is *fun*, rejoicing is great!  If I run my race well, then
>I get perma-rejoicing.  You know, I really believe that if I have eternity
>to practice in God's doj*, I can finally work the kinks out of my turning
>kicks :-)

Yeah, you might even have time to extract that 2x4 from your cornea,
too...

>SUMMATION (finally):
>It should not be hard to realize that "traditional" values are fading
>fast.  

Whose traditions?

>Family values are being tossed around by both political parties
>and in such a way that it is a mockery.  

Whose values?

>I just found out by accident that
>there is/was a hot thread in misc.kids about how to let your kids grow
>up accepting witches, ARRRRGG.  

Should they be hanged or burned at the stake, instead?
Where do you draw the line? Where Savanarola did?
Whose faith is "correct" enough to suit you? How big a difference in
doctrine is allowable? Whom will you accept? Whom will you coerce?
After you finish with the witches and the neo-pagans, will you commence
with the Jews? How about Muslims? How about Unitarians, Coptics, Eastern
Orthodox, Catholics, non-charismatic Protestants? 

>The word I use for what is going on in
>usenet and the world is apostasy, and this is a *BAD* thing. 

Well, technically speaking you can't be an apostate unless you've already
professed faith. I'd say that usenet as an institution probably can't
qualify. In fact, I'd say that most of the world can't qualify, either.

>I think that what is begining is an age of spiritual warfare, which will
>spill over into the carnal.

How do you plan on conducting this little war of yours?
How *did* you conduct this particular battle?

>My ONLY chance is to pray the sinners prayer: Lord I know that I have
>sinned, I believe that you came to earth incarnate, died for my sins and
>arose in three days defeating sin and death.  I ask you Jesus to come
>into my heart, forgive me for my sins, and intercede on my behalf before
>God.

Sounds like you're going to need it.

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts