From: johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: NeXT vs Mac (Again) was "Need to convin
Reply-To: johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 03:09:13 GMT

In article @rpi.edu, gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes:
>johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>> (gad this thread is huge)
>
>Hey, don't blame me!!!
>     (note my initials, for the pun-impared :-)
>
>> wrob@unixg.ubc.ca (Robert Wong) writes:
>> >How about Display Postscript level 2 (PS level 2) to make your NeXT laser 
>> >printer automatically PS 2?  (I don't think upgrading system software on
>> >a Mac will up the PS level on a Laserwriter NT/NTX)
>> 
>> I don't think it will do this on the NeXT; it will make the computer
>> IMAGE with PS level 2. But what if you are using a "real" postscript
>> printer.. does it help then?
>
>Um, depends on your definition of "real".  If you are going to a NeXT laser  
>printer, which is not an Apple laserwriter of course, then it will most  
>certainly print Postscript level 2.  That's one of the advantages of doing  
>the imaging on the machine as opposed to in a separate printer.  Both the  
>screen and the printer do exactly the same thing this way.

What I meant was "a PostScript  printer".

That is a printer that understands postscript, rather than having
the computer do it for it. Would this be upgradeD?

>Of course, if you define "real" as being "you must print it on hardware  
>which does not support Postscript level 2, such as an (older) Apple  
>laserwriter", then clearly you are correct.

No, I meant hardware which does not BY ITSELF do so, but maybe you
can convince it to?

>  The NeXT has to fall back to  
>postscript level 1 when printing to a printer which is stuck at level 1 of  
>Postscript.  This shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone.

Will it convert PS level 2 to PS level 1? This would be good enuf for me.

>Oddly enough, many NeXT users buy NeXT printers, and thus they can print  
>Postscript level 2 documents once they upgrade to NS3.0.

:)

Many people by QuickDraw printers for the Mac.

>> >How about Appletalk client and Novell client support?
>> 
>> Appletalk client isn't so hard for a Mac. Novell can be got 3d party,
>> tho it is pricey.
>
>More important point to make here (for those arguing the Mac side) is that  
>the Appletalk support in NS3.0 is a bit on the buggy side, *particularly* if  
>your network is not all Phase 2.  One hopes (for those arguing the NeXT  
>side) that all these problems will be addressed in NeXTSTEP 3.1.  People who  
>have all Phase 2 networks seem to be happy with the NS3.0 version of  
>Appletalk support, but I'd have to admit that it's been extremely unreliable  
>for me in the RPI environment (which is mostly phase 1, but in the process  
>of being converted to phase 2).

I didn't know about this.

>> > How about localization support for
>> > Eng/French/German/Span./Italian/Swedish?
>> > (I think you guys got that in System 7.0 or 7.1)
>> 
>> We had that in system ->1.0<-;
>> 
>> No kidding.
>> 
>> System 5ish provided support for non-roman alphabets,  and system 7
>> does things like context sensitive typefaces, reverse writing etc.
>> I believe 7.1 can do mixed script systems and several other neat tricks,
>> but I'm not very knowledgable about it.
>
>I've seen this claim presented before, and I think it sidesteps the real  
>point.  The Mac system did *not* support multiple languages before system  
>7.1.  What it did was have different systems geared to different languages.   
>This is not the same thing.

Then what IS the point?

You can USE any language you want on any Mac (so long as its Roman
character set based, :/ ). But the menus, buttons, etc, are handled
by the apps; Thus you need a a language-specific version of the
app. (this goes for the Finder too, as you have noticed)

System 7.1 added the ability to do this same trick with non-roman
langauges too.

>Before you explain resources to me, as if I am ignorant of the Mac world,  
>consider this.  If you installed the German version of system 6.08 on your  
>Mac, you would indeed have german support.  Now let's say I want to use your  
>Mac, and I want to see everything in spanish.  What did I have to do?  I had  
>to install a new system, the Spanish system.  Thus, the *system* did not  
>support multiple languages.  Thus I have CD-ROM's from Apple which have a  
>few dozen different systems on it, and the user decides which *system* they  
>wanted to install.

Oh, I see. you are discounting the early Mac support of other languages
because it could not switch on the fly.

I do not see how it is usefull to be able to do this. Nor do I see
how you can justify discounting the support on this thing alone.

But I am MORE than a little surprised that the NeXT keeps on disk, at all
times, copies of all the text in all bits of the system (and apps) in
all sorts of languages- so you can switch. Just in case you happen
to run into a NeXT that doesn't speak your language, I guess. :/

Doesn't really sound worthwhile. How many apps support this?

>Both NeXTSTEP 3.0 and WorldScript Mac System 7.1 support multiple languages,  
>in the sense that it can be a user preference instead of being a decision  
>which is made only at installation time.

Where is this information from? I never heard this about 7.1. Thought
it did this part the same way 7.0 did (one main langauge system, plus
many secondary systems)

>--
>Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
>ITS Systems Programmer            (handles NeXT-type mail)
>Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
>
>(note: I do both Mac and NeXT stuff.
>       I own a Mac and will soon own a NeXT.
>       I find most of these Mac vs. NeXT threads pretty dumb, because
>              I myself like both systems).

So do I, for the same reason.

But I still like to argue them. :D

Dumb but fun. :)
---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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