HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ecovingt@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Maiko Covington)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Usage of wo
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:08:54 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego


The entire discussion of wo/o, he/e, wa/ha etc. is of course based
entirely on the official standardized Japanese. In `living Japanese',
more precisely dialects of Japanese, some of these differences become
noticeable, whereas they are expressed by the kana usage only in the 
standard language.
A good, recent work on this is "The languages of Japan" by M. Shibatani
(Cambridge Language Surveys, Cambridge University Press, UK, 1990-91).

Sore dewa mata,

Nico

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Nico A.F.M. Poppelier
Elsevier Science Publishers, APD, R&D Department
Sara Burgerhartstraat 25, 1055 KV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-20-5862504. Fax: +31-20-5862425. Email: n.poppelier@elsevier.nl
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: rjh1@FORTH.STIRLING.AC.UK (Mr Richard J Harrison)
Subject: big Kanji
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:06:49 GMT

I have a friend who has a sight problem which hinders his reading, this
includes Japanese... he wants software for a Toshiba T2000 that will
allow him to see (Japanese) text  magnified on the screen (I have this for
the MAc but not PCs)... does anyone know of any such utilities that
might help him....?? Please contact me...

**********************************************************************
*           Richard Harrison      Teaching Fellow                    *
*           Scottish Centre for Japanese Studies                     *
*           University of Stirling                                   *
*           Stirling FK9 4LA, U.K.                                   *
*           Tel 0786 66080    Fax 0786 66088                         *
**********************************************************************
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mark@hpcvxmsr.cv.hp.com (Mark Rowe)
Subject: Re: nihongo no shaberu gaijin
Reply-To: mark@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com
Organization: UDT-CV (ITO)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:19:02 GMT

In article <MS-C.713679250.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes:
 ... 
> I suspect that there's only a dozen or so non-native speakers who can
> be considered to be truly fluent in Japanese.
 ...
I believe you are being overly restrictive in your definition of "fluent".
Even if I were to agree that there are only "a dozen or so" non-native
speakers whose speech is indistinguishable from that of a native Japanese
(I suspect the number is considerably higher), this does not mean that
only these are fluent.  Anybody who can converse in Japanese with an
average native Japanese person at a normal rate of speech and in a
smoothly flowing manner ("smoothly flowing" is after all the literal
meaning of fluent) where each understands what is being said would be
fluent in Japanese.

Mark Rowe*             email: mark@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com
Hewlett Packard       voice: (503) 750-3246
Corvallis, OR         FAX:   (503) 750-3788

* definitely not fluent in Japanese.
From: aotani@lhasa.berkeley.edu (masayasu aotani)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: going to Japan
Date: 21 Aug 1992 22:01:45 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.
Distribution: USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: lhasa.berkeley.edu
Summary: Sophia University Alumni Association and some more

In article <9208201803.AA24010@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu writes:
>I begin graduate studies at Sophia University (Jochi Daigaku) next month and
>would like to gather as much info as possible before I go.  Please let me
>know how to join the nihongo list.
>
>Thanks,
>Deepak Moorjani

I am not sure if the poster wants info on living in Japan or about Sophia 
University.  But, if it is the latter, he/she can call Mr./Ms. Kido at 
(212) 310-1485.  He/She is the NY (or may be US) representative of Sophia 
University Alumni Association (Sophia Kai).  I have a feeling that there
should be more than one branches of Sophia Kai in the US.  If someone knows of
any other, please let me know.

The University of California has an exchange program with Sophia University.
So, presumably there are exchange students from Sophia University at Berkelwey.
But, I have not met any.  If you know of someone, please send me an e-mail.
We have a newsgroup called ucb.study.abroad.japan at UC Berkeley.  We could
use first-hand information. 

I may be drifting away from the subject a little, but there is a very useful
service provided by KDD and someone else (Sorry, I forgot.).  It is called
America Seikatsu Hyakuto Ban (212 869-0110), and they provide you with all 
sorts of useful information and assistance regarding survival (their word) in 
the US.  Unfortunately (or Fortunately if you are Japanese) the service is in 
Japanese.  But, they seem to know a lot about Japanese community in the US.
This is how I found out about Sophia Kai.

Now you see why the title says " some more ".

-- 
     Masayasu AOTANI            |  Hi !  I am old and tired.  How about you ? 
Department of Mathematics       |  Please send your donations to the address
University of California        |  on the left.  
Berkeley,  CA 94720             |  MOST OPINIONS POSTED HERE ARE NOT MINE.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: colric@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Colin Richards)
Subject: Re: what happen with 'wo'?
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:32:36 GMT

mcastro@iris-dcp.es writes:

>I've just started to learn japanese -as a hobby , on my own. I've
>began with the syllabary I've found in my first japanese book,
>an old ('77) spanish book about Kanji. There I found hiragana &
>katakana for the syllabe 'wo'. Later I bought other books, an
>american one 'Everyday Japanese'  and the Kodansha compact Kanji
>guide. In those books that syllabe doesn't appear anywhere - well,
>in the Compact guide appears in the phonetic syllabary but nor in
>the ON/KUN index; in the other it only appears in the japanese 
>translations as 'o':
>       Are o misete kudasai
>          ^ ^
>so, 
>	what hapen with 'wo'?

>Sayonara				man.

Don't worry, 'wo' is still there and so is 'o'.  That charater is
pronounced basically as 'o', but sometimes it can sound a bit like 'wo'. 
In the hiragana table, 'o' is on the same row as 'wa', and it was
origionaly pronounced as 'wo' but now it is just said as 'o' most of the
time.
It is the same as 'ti' becoming 'chi' and 'si' becoming 'shi'.

hope this helps.

Colin
From: AENIX@UMSVM.BITNET (Black Mage)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Mourinng customs
Date: 16 Aug 92 19:34:48 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet

Thanks, the modern language department at UM actually has this film. Informatio
n is really appreciated.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: kilpatri@nextnet.csus.edu (Joseph Kilpatrick)
Subject: Re: nihongo no shaberu gaijin
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 08:00:49 GMT

In article <TOHO.92Aug13164757@fugen.parc.xerox.com> toho@parc.xerox.com (Masato Toho) writes:
>Hi, I'm a Japanese living in the USA for 3 years. I want to be a
>fluent English speaker. Your article is very interesting for me.
>
>As you seem to be in advanced level, I try correct your Japanese to
>make more natural.
>
>> nihongo no shaberu gaijin
>
>nihongo wo shaberu gaijin (A forigner who speaks Japanese) or
>gaijin no shaberu nihongo (Japanese that forigners speak) is correct Japanese.
>(Perhaps, you wrote this subject incorrectly on perpose.)

I thought that wo is out of use.  I am only an first year student and they
told us that  wo isn't used anymore.  And since right now we are studying
noun modification, the only way I could say "a forigner who spea Japanese"
is nihongo o hanasu koto ga dekiru gaijin (a person who is able to speak
Japanese).  So if people could please email and explain wo I would apprciate
it.  Thanks.
-- 
*******************************************************************************
*"I gotta fly like a duck.......... |Alt. lyrics for "Back to Paradise" from  *
* I gotta run like a wounded badger"|Gundam0083[kilpatri.nextnet.ccs.csus.edu]*
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: yash@phonon.uwaterloo.ca (Yashraj Bhatnagar)
Subject: WANTED -- HELP WITH TRANSLATION
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:05:19 GMT

I have a copy of a scientific paper from the japanese Journal of Vaccum Science
and Technology which I need to get a hang of VERY URGENTLY. Anybody with the
correct background, and of course the ability to read Japanese, with a half hour
or so which he/she can afford to devote to this request will be gastronomically
rewarded for their assistance. I am looking for people in the Kitchener/
Waterloo area.


Thanks. 

Please reply to this EMail address or call ext. 5313.
YASH.
From: nakano@suncom1.cs.shinshu-u.ac.jp (NAKANO Yasuaki)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: HELP: More Image Processing words...
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:23:36 GMT
Reply-To: nakano@suncom1.cs.shinshu-u.ac.jp (NAKANO Yasuaki)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Dept. of Information Engineering, Shinshu Univ.,500 wakasato, Nagano, Japan

In article <1992Aug10.235335.3598@arizona.edu> CHAMBERS@hacks.arizona.edu (eremy Ch	) writes:
>Can anyone help me correct these translations?...

I'm afraid that some Japanese netters can't read your post, because it became
gibberish by missing escape characters. I completed the missing escapes.

>$BN3;R!!!!>u!!!!2hA|2r@O%7%9%F%`!!(J
>Image analysis system for particle distribution.
Particle (or Particular) image analysis system.
Actually, I have not met the Japanese phrase and don't know the correct answer.

>$B!{2hA|$NFsCM2=!$@ZCG!!!!!!>C5n!$!!!!!!!!?^7A!!$N7j!!M}$aEy$r9T$$!$(J
>$B!!<+F0J,N%!!$7$^$9!#(J
>$B!{(JAutomatically separates (particles).  Executes threshold
>  gap-filling of figure.  Does cropping and bi-value
>  transformation of image.

$B!{(JAutomatically separates (particles), after binarization, cropping,
  erasing and gap-filling of the image.

>$B!{N37B0?$ON3;RLL@Q$r7WB,$7!$$=$NEY?tJ,I[$N(J
>$B!!I=<($HB37W7W;;$r$7$^$9!#(J
         ^^^^
         $BE}7W(J
>$B!{(JMeasures the areas of particles and with that frequency
>  distribution report (histogram?) computes the second series
>  summation.?
$B!{(JMeasures the radii or areas of particles, displays the histogram of them
  and executes statistical calculation.

>Thanks ...
Welcome.

Yasuaki NAKANO
nakano@wakasato.cs.shinshu-u.ac.jp
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: wpm@is.morgan.com (W. Phillip Moore)
Subject: Re: Uum - almost got it running...
Organization: Informations Services Dept., Morgan Stanley Japan
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:20:40 GMT


>>>>> "Ross" == Ross Levinsky <ross@mecha.mit.edu>:

Ross> After much pain and suffering (and deafening silence from the net),
Ross> I've almost got jserver and uum running on a SunOS 4.1.2 with X11R5. 
Ross> I need only a SMALL amount of help to finish it up; then I shall post
Ross> a nice, detailed article on how YOU can have complete Japaneses
Ross> text-entry/word-prcessing on your machine. Without an
Ross> internationalized OS, at that. So, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can someone
Ross> give me some advice?

It shouldn`t be *that* painful.  One warning about uum.  It runs suid root,
and if it can't write to your home directory, you`ll be hosed.  This is why
I don't use it.  If your home directory is on an NFS mounted partition
(quite common) and the server doesn't explicitly export root permission for
that partition to the clients where you wish to run uum (even more common),
it will NOT be able to manage the ~/Wnn hindo files.  I suppose you could
try to move the location of these files, but they *cannot* be installed in
the same location as the hindo files used by the jserver directly, as those
are owned by the uid wnn.

If you are working with X11 (R4 *or* R5) you can get a better conversion
environment using either kterm(kinput2) and/or exterm(xwnmo).  Both are
superior to running umm inside a kterm.  

Additionally, if you use an X11 based conversion system (i.e. either
kinput2 or the newer xwnmo) then you can also use Japanese in a variety of
X11R5 clients which have been internationalized:

   editres
   tgif
   xcalendar
   xclipboard
   xedit
   xpostit

Several others also allow use of Japanese in resources/menus/etc (but do
not involve input):

   listres
   twm
   viewres
   xlbiff
   xman

For the daring and more advanced X11 administrators there is a patch for
the R4 Xaw library which will allow use of kinput2 with *ANY* Xaw client
linked with this library.  I've used this to make virtually every R4 Xaw
client I use bilingual (xrn, ghostview, xload, xpbiff -- to name a few).  

Some sites may have abandoned R4 altogether, which is too bad.  I run both
R4 and R5 clients simultaneously (some configuration thought is necessary
to deal with multiple versions of the shared libraries, but that is easily
solved).

If anyone needs more information, let me know.  I've been working with a
fully bilingual R4/R5 based X11 environment for almost two years.  Parts of
it are non-trivial, but in general, its straight forward.

W. Phillip Moore	   				Phone: 81-3-3286-9359
Information Services Department                           FAX: 81-3-3286-9040
Morgan Stanley Japan Ltd.  Tokyo Branch             E-mail: wpm@is.morgan.com
	Ote Center Bldg. 3F, 1-1-3 Otemachi, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 100
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mcastro@iris-dcp.es
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: what happen with 'wo'?
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:43:49 +0100
Organization: REDIRIS, Red Nacional de I+D

I've just started to learn japanese -as a hobby , on my own. I've
began with the syllabary I've found in my first japanese book,
an old ('77) spanish book about Kanji. There I found hiragana &
katakana for the syllabe 'wo'. Later I bought other books, an
american one 'Everyday Japanese'  and the Kodansha compact Kanji
guide. In those books that syllabe doesn't appear anywhere - well,
in the Compact guide appears in the phonetic syllabary but nor in
the ON/KUN index; in the other it only appears in the japanese 
translations as 'o':
       Are o misete kudasai
          ^ ^
so, 
	what hapen with 'wo'?

Sayonara				man.

Xref: sparky sci.lang.japan:3791 soc.culture.japan:7008
From: culver@uts.amdahl.com (Eric B. Culver)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan,soc.culture.japan
Subject: lessons
Keywords: lessons
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:39:15 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: ba
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

The Japan Society of Northern California will be starting
their next quarter of Japanese Language instruction in September.
If interested please call me at 408-737-5726 or 
Japan Society 415-986-4383.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: rto051@hippo.sps.mot.com (Chang Suk-Kyung)
Subject: Re: language question
Originator: root@mogate.sps.mot.com
Organization: TDO
Distribution: sci
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 01:42:54 GMT

In article <Bt72KG.7n3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mako@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu writes:
>> "Kaeru jikan wo wakarimasuka?"	-- unnatural but acceptable
>> "Kaeru jikan ga wakarimasuka?"	-- natural
>> "Kaeru jikan ha wakarimasuka?"	-- natural
>> "Kaeru jikan mo wakarimasuka?"	-- natural
>> "Kaeru jikan wakarimasuka?"	-- natural but colloquial
>> 
>> "ga" is the most general. "ha" is ok but differnent meaning from "ga".

>After discussing with some Japanese friends here, I understand it is
>used often, it may even be natual, but it is nonetheless incorrect.
>Our conclusions were
>  1. It is best to omit "ga" or "wa" as much as possible (if spoken);
>  2. Use different words --- "kaeru jikan wo shitte imasuka?" or "itsu
>     kaeru ka wakarimasuka?"
>  3. There are lots of incorrect sentences we use naturally, so naturally
>     that we do not realise they are (or were once) incorrect...

It's interesting to get such different responses from native speakers.
I wonder if there's not a regional dependency here?  My experience in 
Japan is mostly in the Kanto region, and I'm pretty sure I have never
heard "wo" used with "wakaru" except in some very limited special cases,
such as "kimochi o wakatte kudasai".  I'm fairly sure that I have never
heard "kare wa nihon no ongaku o wakatte iru".  Also, I have never seen
it given as correct in any grammar book.

However, it seems to me that "o" is taking the place of "ga" in marking
"objects" in various situations -- "... o wakatte kudasai", "mizu o
nomitai", "kanojo no koto o suki ni natta", etc..  My own personal theory
(with no linguistic research to back it up, of course) is that these
"objects" aren't objects at all, but special kinds of subjects.
(Yes, I know what Kuno thinks....)  At least, in "traditional" Japanese 
this is the case.  However, it seems that, probably due to 
linguistic/psychological influence from the Western cultures, the 
Japanese society as a whole is becoming less "passive/stative" and more 
"active/transitive".  The shift from "ga" to "o" is a linguist reflection
of this shift in thinking, as the language shifts its emphasis from
passive expressions to active expressions.

Take it for what it's worth.

>PS: A little quiz: "Zenzen omoshiroi"-tte nanda? What does it mean?

"Very interesting".  Slang I can handle; it's hyoujungo that I get
hung up on!  :)
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS IS A BORROWED ACCOUNT!          David Luke
   SEND ALL E-MAIL REPLIES TO:        luke@wombat.ee.byu.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mathias@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Gerald B. Mathias)
Subject: Re: "radical" 162
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:45:28 GMT

In article <9208180258.AA05170@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> Dave_Spence.Ebina_PBU@fujixerox.xerox.com writes:
>
>By the way, radical 162 is called shinnyuu hen.
                                            ^^^

Are you sure?  It's a loose use of the term `hen,' then, since `shinnyuu'
(`shinnyoo') is technically a `nyoo,' not a `hen.'

Bart
From: tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: question about wakarimasen/shirimasen
Date: 14 Aug 92 06:26:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: gibdo.1992Aug14.062151.5612
Organization: clearer than blir

In article <1992Aug13.182013.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> rrwest01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>If I use "wakarimasen" when I don't know the answer to a question, my
>Japanese interlocutor thinks I didn't understand the question and 
>switches to English. Rather frustrating.
>--robert westmoreland

Suck your teeth and try: "Sou desu ne..."
                     or: "Tyotto..."

This will be interpreted to mean that you understand the question, but
also wonder about the answer.

-- Tad Perry   Internet:    tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu
               CompuServe:  70402,3020  
               NIFTY-Serve: GBG01266
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: English IS easy to learn
Date: 16 Aug 92 19:24:44 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <399@catnix.UUCP> michele@catnix.UUCP (Michele Simond) writes:

> I sometimes wonder how English readers of some of the texts I have
> to translate (mostly in the computer, telecommunications and radar 
> technology domains) can understand what is presented to them.  One

Can you please cite a few? I read computer and communications
books and I'd like to see some of these offenders to compare to other
technical books.


> French, and that as long as one can relate whatsoever to what he/she 
> reads there is no problem.  I still think there will come a
> day, soon, when nothing will make sense anymore.
> 
> Any comments?

Sure!

I can't wait until the day in America when no one knows how to spell
correctly. Then either everyone will fake it to the best of their
abilities in which case the outcome will probably be better than
what exists now or the President will appoint a blue-red-gold-white-
xxx  ribbon commission to study the problem and suggest 
remedies.  There doesn't seem to be any other way in which any
spelling reform can be taken.

To speed it up, in fact, it might be possible to consider a time
period during which free-form spelling is encouraged. Just a joke!
It might be a nice game to try on sci.lang, though. 

In either case we'll wind up with a much more consistent
set of spelling algorithms.
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: English Orthography (was "easy to learn?")
Date: 22 Aug 92 20:28:24 GMT
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <1992Aug13.191945.16240@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> pjt@newton.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Tanenbaum) writes:

# OK, it certainly is unfortunate (in some sense) that the two text
# strings "laughter" and "daughter" do not represent words that
# rhyme.  So, assuming we decided to enhance the spelling of the
# former, what should our choice be?  There are speakers for whom the
# word rhymes with "lofter" (one who lofts) and others for whom it
# doesn't.

Really?  Who?  I know they talk funny around Baldimer, but I've never
heard that one.

David Johns

Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: New words for gender neutral pronouns in English
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 11:56:12 GMT

Evan Kirshenbaum (evan@hpl.hp.com) writes:
>  "Someone left their wallet on my desk but I don't know whose it is."
>...
>"their" is either deictic or necessarily singular as it is the
>antecedent of "someone".)

Not necessarily singular, since "someone" does not necessarily has
to be the antecedent.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
From: michele@catnix.UUCP (Michele Simond)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: English IS easy to learn
Date: 15 Aug 92 03:04:51 GMT
Organization: Rhinoceros, chargez!

ed@wente.llnl.gov (Ed Suranyi) writes:
>
>[...]
>  As my father said,
>"Although English spelling can be difficult, it is easy to learn to
>speak English well enough to get by."

Although English may be easy to learn to speak well enough to get
by, things get more complicated when it comes to writing.  As a
person who has been translating English texts into French for the
past 15 years, all I can say is that the quality of written English
is continuously degrading.  It sometimes comes to a point where it
is almost unintelligible...

I sometimes wonder how English readers of some of the texts I have
to translate (mostly in the computer, telecommunications and radar 
technology domains) can understand what is presented to them.  One
argument I have heard, is that English is much more flexible than
French, and that as long as one can relate whatsoever to what he/she 
reads there is no problem.  I still think there will come a
day, soon, when nothing will make sense anymore.

Any comments?


--
Michele Simond ...... Traductrice ......  B.P.: michele@catnix.UUCP
(514) 671-8820				   OU :	michele%catnix@cam.org

"L'orage brise les arbres et fait ployer l'herbe; mais faut-il dire
pour cela que l'herbe a trahi les arbres?" (A. Soljenitsine)
Newsgroups: sci.lang,soc.culture.japan