From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Subject: Argic and his "Source"
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:46:47 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <9209142237@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:





+>In article <visser.716529252@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:

+>>	Note the title "Documents".  What these statements consist of
+>>is remanicences of turkish officers from the turkish military archives.

+>So you lie there with your earphones on.

	Note that you didn't answer the question did you?  Why are you 
avoiding the issues I have raised as far as the credibility of your 
sources.  
	You said that you wanted your sources to be "addressed" and now
that I have, you can only seem to resort to posting more of the same
stuff.

	




+>Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
+>to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

+>"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
+> the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
+> defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
+> the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."

	So we have an "absolute" second-hand review of a sourceless
firsthand account.  Who is the source?  Who witnessed these events?
The author does not seem to have.  Is the turkish army the source?


+>Source: W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields," 
+>Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481.

+>"As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars
+> as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre
+> of the Tartar population." 

	As we have no year, and no location and no real proof, what is
the value of such a statement.  You quote one line from a 481 page 
book, without any context as to what is being described.


+>Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24, 
+>1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"

+>"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
+> it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
+> defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
+> sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the 
+> Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

	Now we are down to quoting German advisors of the turkish army.
Could it be that "General" Bronsart is attempting to gloss over why
the turkish army collapsed in eastern turkey during world war one,
	Could it be that General Bronsart was involved with the military
of the ottoman empire fairly directly.


+>Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
+>Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
+>(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
+> million Muslim people)

	Of couse Leonard Ramsden Hartill does not say that 2.5 million 
"Muslim" (i.e. turks) people were killed now does he.

	And of course this is the book that you are rather imfamous for
selectivly quoting from is it not?



+>Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
+>Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
+>(287 pages).



+> "Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
+>  plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
+>  their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
+>  and protection..."

	That caravans of refugees were leaving kind of puts a dent in your
figures of 2.5 million dead.  Or is a turk "dead" when forced to flee an
area.





+> "Shortly afterwards the head of the miserable column appeared. There were
+>  in all about 200 persons, mostly old men and women and children, with a
+>  few ox-carts, ponies, and donkeys, carrying all their worldly possessions,
+>  except a few sheep that they were driving before them. Their leader
+>  interviewed Bekir Bey, and was told to keep farther on into the hills,
+>  where he would be able to cross the frontier into Turkey unmolested by
+>  his enemies."

	Another example of genocide right?



>p. 181 (first paragraph)

+>"...the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with 
+> artillery, with probably a large force in support."

	Note here we have a battle between what seems to be kurds and
armenians.  Now what does this prove?  




+>p. 175 (first paragraph)

+>"The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
+> that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
+> Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
+> British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
+> commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
+> the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
+> pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
+> In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
+> to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
+> be referred to in due course.

	More examples of "Geonide" right?