From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: So the Greeks were monsters because they wanted to be free
Date: 17 Nov 1992 14:33:18 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

[After the poultry debates, finally, finally, some Quality News in sight!]

I do not know if you have spent any time reading the scholarly material
that our feathered friend Hasan B-) Mutlu has been providing. I have
(life is boring), and actually think there is an interesting point to
be made there.

For example, he describes a situation where over 300,000 Musulmans
(Turks and other Moslems) were living in (occupied by the Ottoman
Empire (TM) for 400 or so years) Greece, and they were allegedly
victimized by the Greeks in their 10-year struggle for independence
(1821 to 1831), and, for those who remained, afterwards. A similar
situation was in some islands between Greeks and Jews.

Now, I am going to assume that the material that our feathered friend
presented is correct.  I am not going to argue, I'll just accept is as
true. I want to present the case from my point of view, and a counter
example, and see what Hasan or anyone else for that matter has to say.

1. The 300,000 or so Musulmans (Muslims, mostly Turks) were SETTLERS
   in an occupied land. Some for as long as 300 years, but still SETTLERS.
   Few nations I am familiar with would accept members of an occupying
   force as SETTLERS with open arms. 

2. During the events of 1821-1830 we can not deny that a state of war
   existed between the Ottoman Empire (TM) and Greece. Both sides mobilized
   armies and fleets, fought fierce battles, and had high numbers of 
   'collateral damage'. 

3. During the occupation, the Musulman minority (not so minority as the exact
   population is quite high as a proportion) had quite an advantage 
   compared to the 'infidels'. Who could forget the Head Tax (Haratsi?)
   and other methods which the Ottoman Empire (TM) used to finance its
   operations? The numerous humiliations that Greeks had to endure?

Given 1, 2, and 3, is it any surprise that the Greeks did what they
are alleged to have done? I mean, they were not fighting a conquering
war, they were simply trying to liberate themselves.

Let us examine analogy #1. During WW2, many nations were occupied by
Nazi Germany and Italy. Most countries set up very elaborate and
effective resistance networks, with notable examples in Greece and
France. Yet in both Greece and France there were collaborators. Most
were dealt with in a manner appropriate (i.e the WALL). The Greeks and
French (among others) run many successful operations and disrupted the
Axis forces.  Are we going to classify these operations of a country
trying to liberate itself from a brutal occupation as "Human Rights
Abuses" and "Monstrous Acts"? How monstrous was the Greek resistance
killing 30 German soldiers in Kalavrita in 1944 compared to the 3,000
Greeks executed by the Germans in retaliation? How monstrous were the
bombings of Dresden or London, both with heavy casualties?

The point that I'm trying to make is simple and straightforward. I accept
Hasan's allegations at face value. The readers have to realize that at 
the time the alleged incidents happened a state of war existed between
the Ottoman Empire (TM) and Greece. Do you think that German settlers 
(if they existed) in WW2 France would have been dealt with with any less
drastic measures?

Analogy #2, and a more recent one, is the mistreatment of ethnic
Russians in some of the Turkik republics. NPR had a segment the other
day about this treatment. It told of people losing their jobs and
apartments and being kicked out of the Turkik republics en masse,
simply because they were planted there during the X-USSR's better
days.

While violence has not been a major problem, at least according to 
NPR, discrimination against the Russians has been in force big time
since the Turkik republics became independent. Very few of the Russian
transplants can speak the local language, and for years they were given
the best jobs/housing/etc by the central govt. Russia is keeping a 
watchful eye (and plenty of troops) at hand. 

Hypothetical Analogy #3: let's say for the sake of argument that some
hypothetical neighboring superpower managed to invade Turkiye and
absorb it into its empire. Let us further say that many many of the
empire's people were transplanted into (Occupied, don't forget)
Turkiye, were given the best jobs, housing, etc. Let's further assume
that the Turkish people, after decades or even centuries of occupation
and oppresion, would rise and defeat the invading empire.

What would happen to the empire transplants Hasan? Would they be
allowed to live in peace? Would they be killed? Would cool heads
prevail over demands for revenge and correcting the injustices of
decades/centuries of occupation?

Hypothetical Analogy #4, similar to #3, but with a twist. Let us say
that the (stupid IMHO) attempt of Greece to invade Anatolia had
succeeded in 1922; And, further, that thru some strange means
(superior weapons, numerical superiority, support of the local
Anatolian Greek communities) the Greek army managed to occupy Turkiye
for a while. In this case, Anatolian Greeks would collaborate with the
occupying Greek army forces, be given the best jobs/priviledges, while
the occupied Turks would be second grade citizens.

Then, after a few years/decades, the Turks would rightfully rise up
to defeat the occupying Greek army, and eradicate/drive them off
Turkish soil. Turkiye would regain its independence, and would have
a few hundrend thousands` worth of Greek Army collaborating Anatolian
Greeks to worry about. 

What would happen to the Anatolian Greeks, Hasan? Would they be
allowed to live in peace? Would they be killed? Would cool heads
prevail over demands for revenge and correcting the injustices of
decades/centuries of occupation?

Come, my feathered friend, please answer the question above. Would
your people fight the invaders till there is no more blood in their veins,
will they collaborate with them, or will they sheepisly accept their
'kismet' (fate)?

Anyhow, I know I'm probably wasting my time arguing with MUTLU.EXE. But
just for the record, I want to point out that I *did* try for a meaningful
dialog first. I am not a historian, and I don't even play one on the net.
I just want to point out that human nature is more powerful than Mutlu
or anyone else would give it credit for.

Opinions will be appreciated. 

Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    "I don't want to make money,
c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com                 I just want to read News..."

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