HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kls@ohare.Chicago.COM (Karl Swartz)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: United flight's cargo door?
Date: 28 Jul 92 10:33:26 GMT
Organization: Chicago Software Works

In article <1992Jul22.030226.10959@microsoft.com> joero@microsoft.com (Joe Robison) writes:
>In article <greg.711466756@octopus> greg@octopus.dpsi.com wrote:
>> And it's not unheard of for a cargo door to down a big bird either, as was
>> the case with the Turkish DC-10 and, of course, the near disaster with
>> the United 747.

>The Turkish DC-10 was not taken out by the loss of the cargo door directly;
>instead the pressure differential between the pressurized cabin and the
>now-depressurized cargo area under the cabin caused the floor to sag.
>The control cables run through the floor, and the sag was enough to bind
>the controls to the point where the pilots lost control.  This was a very
>early model of the DC-10; a similar accident occured with a prototype.
>Later models included a beefed-up floor to prevent this problem.

The Turkish aircraft wasn't particulaly an "early model" DC-10, it was
just another DC-10-10, not particularly different from any of the
hundreds of others built.  I'm not sure but I believe the control
cables were completely severed as the floor collapsed.  I'm not aware
of any substantial structural modification to the floor as a result of
this crash though that might also have been done.  The primary focus
was on fixing the cargo door latch and rerouting the controls to the
top of the fuselage (all of them, were they could be taken out be a
failed compressor, q.v. UA 232) along with additional venting of the
floor to reduce probability of a complete collapse.

The similar accident to which you refer did not occur with a prototype
(no DC-10 prototype was constructed) but rather happened on June 12,
1972 during a revenue flight of N103AA, American's third DC-10 and the
fifth off the production line.  In this case the damage to the control
cables was not as severe and the flight safely returned to Detroit.

-- 
Karl Swartz		|INet	kls@ditka.chicago.com
1-415/854-3409		|UUCP	uunet!decwrl!ditka!kls
			|Snail	2144 Sand Hill Rd., Menlo Park CA 94025
"YOU try supporting 80 users on a steam-powered abacus!" (Alan Kaplan)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: jkr@cray.com (John Renwick)
Subject: Re: Lindbergh's book (was: What's in earth-inductor compass?)
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 24 Jul 92 11:54:56 CDT

In article <5110@transfer.stratus.com> lee@bluefuzz.sw.stratus.com (Lee Cooprider) writes:
>I just read "The Spirit of St. Louis" (which, for those who have not read it,
>is a surprisingly well written book) . . . .

One of my favorite aviation books!  Now, while the experience is
still fresh, find and read Michael Collins' _Carrying_the_Fire_,
about Apollo 11, in which  Collins orbited the moon for three
days while Armstrong and Aldrin played on the surface.  There
are, of course, strong contrasts between this and Lindbergh's
flight, but there are poignant similarities as well--enough so
that Lindbergh wrote a preface to the book.  Read as companion
books, these two make a powerful experience.

-- 
- John Renwick
J-3 Cub N62088
jkr@cray.com
From: seymour@milton.u.washington.edu (Richard Seymour)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Coffe cups in the cockpit (Re: A320 yarns)
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:03:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul23.180313.25891
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <5807.2a6d92a2@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.133757.17508@bony1.bony.com>, richieb@bony1.bony.com (Richard Bielak) writes:
>> Of course, the real answer is that the designers of the system are to
>> blame. I think the guy who thought of not moving the throttles when
>> the computer changes power in the A-320, should be fired, banned from
>> aircraft design and travel everywhere by foot...
...a viewpoint i tend to agree with (when i designed/built people-movers,
  i took many first rides in/on them... and some were immediately changed)
>
>How would pilots react to a system where a "ghost-like" influence keeps
>moving levers on them? For example, the pilot chooses the reduce the
>throttle levers. The flight system, detecting a possible impending
>stall condition (or something), moves them back up. The pilot, seeing that
>the computer has moved the levels back up, again pulls them down. Soon
>we have a battle of wits in which the pilot stops flying the plane 
>because he is fighting with the computer. 

as mentioned in another posting about the 320... one of the five ways to 
disconnect it is/was "excessive control force" against what the computer
is/was doing.  So the -specific- example of being able to feel/see the 
handles move, and then manually overriding them, is directly covered,
and produces the desired result: the computer lets the pilot take over.
-but- since the 320 doesn't move the handles, the pilot doesn't get THAT
channel of feedback...
  far better the ghost you can sense, then the spectre you can't...
--dick
From: brian@garbo.contex.com (Brian Love)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: A tale of IFR Range, Part #2. YJFC buys a Cessna Cutlass 172RG
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:21:05 GMT
Organization: Xyvision Design Systems

>We associated a cost with adding any of these items, and added it to
>the sales cost of the airplane.  Then we added in a engine reserve
>based on the percentage of TBO on the engine and propellor.   This all
>got plugged into a spread sheet and the adjusted cost determined.

I'm starting to get serious about purchasing an airplane.  To get a feel for
market values and to find an economical plane, I'm also employing a spread
sheet.  I'd really appreciate hearing more details about how you set up the
spread sheet application, and how you obtained and entered data for the
application.

Brian C. Love           |  Xyvision         |  Remember, you can put it in the
PP-ASEL-IA              |  Wakefield, MA    |  hands of your attorney, but you
Archer  6124J  "Julie"  |  (617) 245-4100   |  can't make it stand up in court.
From: ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Suit filed against Bell Helicopter
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 15:15:52 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: na
  <1992Jul22.175644.17058@eecs.nwu.edu> <62673@cup.portal.com>
  <1992Jul24.150251.21072@cbnews.cb.att.com>

> 	Important to whom ???  Who in hell declared that the injured party
>    has more rights than the partial defendant ??

Society.  I seem to recall that many years ago (15 or so?), California
had this on the ballot, for example. 

An interesting book on this is "Liability" by Peter Huebner (I may be
arbitrarily mangling the name -- I have no access to my books for the
next couple of weeks).  He has a quite readable history of how we got
to the point we are now at (his position, by the way, is that current
liability law is pretty screwed up) in the first few chapters of the
book.

--Tim Smith
From: john@newave.mn.org (John A. Weeks III)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: V-22 Osprey prototype crash
Date: 21 Jul 92 03:00:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: newave.72
Organization: Newave Communications, Ltd, Lake Wobegon, MN

In article <1992Jul20.192857.25827@walter.bellcore.com> venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh) writes:
> A prototype of the experimental V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor plane has apparently 
> crashed into the Potomac river short of the runway at the Marine Air Base in 
> Quantico, VA. Number of people on board unknown.

Seven so far...but they have not released any info about the crew being
all military or if there were non-military types aboard.  The V-22 was said
to be in the process of changing from forward flight to vertical flight
prior to landing.  There were no apparent malfunctions or obvious mistakes
by the crew, according to a Marine spokesman.  The V-22 demonstration flight
started in Flordia, and was to land at Quantico.  Divers spent several hours
in the water, and no survivors were found.

-john-

-- 
==============================================================================
John A. Weeks III		(612) 942-6969		    john@newave.mn.org
Newave Communications, Ltd.			    ..!uunet!tcnet!newave!john
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: brent@telebit.com (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: SJC ILS and ALS OTS until 5/31/93?
Organization: Telebit Corporation; Sunnyvale, CA, USA
Distribution: ba
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 15:43:58 GMT

geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck) writes:

>In article <1992Jul26.054327.12273@telebit.com> brent@greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman) writes:
>> Lately, I've been getting the following pair of NOTAMS:
>>
>> SJC 07/006 SJC 12R/30L ILS OTS TIL 05312400 "1993"
>> SJC 07/005 SJC 12R/30L ALS OTS TIL 05312400 "1993"
>>
>> Anybody know what the story is?

>Runway construction.  The ILS and approach lighting system have been taken
>out in order to lengthen 12R/30L, and they'll be the last things restored
>when the paving is finally done.

How does that effect air carrier ops?  I noticed that there's a new
VOR/DME approach for San Jose (in addition to the old NDB/DME approach),
with about 600 foot or so minimums (my plates are out in the truck).  Is
600 feet low enough to get below the typical Bay Area crud?  I guess, on
the other hand, that when the weather gets really nasty, the winds are
generally such that they're using 12R instead of 30L anyway, and there's
still an ILS on 12R.


-Brent
--
Brent Chapman                                   Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM                           1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841                                 Mountain View, CA  94041
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: davea@col.hp.com (Dave Allen)
Subject: Re: Handheld antenna and otherwise
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:33:09 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

ST402421@brownvm.brown.edu (Chris Paine) writes:
> got to wondering about why external antennas are reputed to work so much
> better than rubber duckys on handheld radios.
> [read SWR on] Collins VHF 250 comm radios and one STS 7600VOR handheld
>             Ant 1    Ant 2     rubber     50 ohm
>                                ducky
> Comm 1        1.1      1.2      >6           1.5
> Comm 2        1.2      1.3      ~5           1.5
> What does it all mean?

First, it means you're lucky to have working Collins 250's. DON'T TRY THIS
AT HOME (or at the aiport either). Those acft radios are designed to work
into a proper antenna, which a duck is not and never will be.

An HT IS designed to work into almost anything, including nothing in case
you key it with the antenna off.

And while SWR can be an indicator of how happy/unhappy a transmitter is, it
has VERY LITTLE to do with energy put out by the antenna. Your 50-ohm dummy
load proves that. To measure transmit output, use a field strength meter.

The duck isn't a good antenna because:
1. It's a far cry from being a quarter-wavelength long, and I mean actual
length, not length-of-the-wire-that's-coiled-up.
2. It has no ground plane, which the acft skin provides - remember, that
blade or wire that sticks up from the acft is only HALF the antenna.
3. It's a rubber duck; NOT an antenna. :-)

>     Also, it cannot handle the higher power (~20 W) of the VHF 250s.

SWR has nothing to do with power handling. If the antenna gets too hot to
touch, or a loading coil or capacitor is arcing, then there's a power
handling problem.

Please, folks don't experiment with your expensive radios. Ask first, and
if you don't trust the answers, let somebody find you a safe way to find
out for yourself.

dave allen - Fly because you love it.
From: morishig@sizzlean.berkeley.edu (Nina Morishige)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Dogs in Planes
Date: 28 Jul 1992 06:17:50 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sizzlean.berkeley.edu

I don't know if this is the right news group to post to, but I have always
wanted to take my dog flying with me. She is a 2 year old border collie,
and travels with no problems in cars. Has anyone got any experience 
flying with their dogs, or is it probably a bad idea? The other thing is
that I have to rent planes, and I know a lot of clubs I've rented
from in the past won't even allow young children to ride, unless
they use a special seat, which they usually don't have available. Does
anyone know whether most clubs will bar animals from the cockpit also?

Thanks,
Nina
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: brent@telebit.com (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: Controlled airspace
Organization: Telebit Corporation; Sunnyvale, CA, USA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 00:55:41 GMT

earlb@ssd.intel.com (Earl Brabandt) writes:

>In the May 1, 1992 NPRM (Docket No. 26852; Notice No. 92-5) dealing 
>with airspace reclassification (airspace alphabet soup -- AAS), the 
>FAA listed the areas at airports that have an airport traffic area but 
>do not have an associated control zone, as of April 30, 1991:

>FAA Region: Western-Pacific
>	Tucson, Ryan Field, Arizona
>	Mojave Airport, California
>	Whiteman, California

Control Zone?  What control zone?  Doesn't that require a weather
observer? Being a weather observer in these places would be _damned_ boring...


-Brent
--
Brent Chapman                                   Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM                           1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841                                 Mountain View, CA  94041
From: dmcleod@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: War story and story request
Date: 25 Jul 92 18:34:10 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.202006.21675@Cadence.COM>, maples@Cadence.COM (Ken Maples) writes:
> Rod has a great question and I'd like to see as many personal stories as
> possible:  How many of us have had significant mechanical problems in the
> air and how many hours in the air did it take for you to have that problem.
> 
O.K., you asked:)  I had about _20_ hours when my first (and so far only)
engine problem cropped up.  We were in a C-172, clear calm day, temperature
about 75 - a perfect day for a flight lesson!  We had just taken off and
everything was looking good until about 150'.  Then the engine decided to
drop from 2600 rpm to 1400 rpm and start emitting large black clouds.
My first instinct was to turn back to the field but the instructor took
the plane.  He leveled the nose and pointed us at the sixteenth fairway
(why are there always golf courses next to airports?).  After about ten
seconds (seemed a lot longer) the engine came back to full power.  He
gave the plane back to me, we flew a low pattern and landed.  Total Hobbs
time was 0.2 for the flight and the mechanics never figured out what caused
it.  I don't know about everyone else but that kind of episode made me
much more conscious of the need to always look for emergency landing
sites.

- David McLeod
- dmcleod@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: M21208@mwvm.mitre.org
Subject: Re: "remain clear of the ARSA..."
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 07:30:11 GMT

In article <Jul.23.12.49.16.1992.13777@pilot.njin.net>
ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie) writes:
 
>
>I buy the, temporary remain clear while we figure out where you
>are and dig up a squawk code for you, but the "We can't let you
>in because we can't handle it" is explicitly contrary to what
>ARSA's are all about.  If these things are so busy that they
>need that sort of protection then they should be TCA's.  I guess
>I still have a bad taste in my mouth when the Denver TCA never
>let VFR traffic in.
>
Note that I didn't say anything about the overall desirability of ARSAs.
Effectively they make the capacity of the airspace synonomous with the
capacity of the controller responsible for it.  This generally means it's
reduced, albeit with an arguably higher level of safety.  Occasional
restrictions are better than making the things TCAs, I think.
 
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: waugh@rtpnet05.rtp.dg.com (Matthew Waugh)
Subject: Re: "remain clear of the ARSA..."
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 17:17:06 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, RTP, NC.

In article <7480324@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com> glenb@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Glen Baker) writes:
>In rec.aviation, greg@octopus.dpsi.com (Gregory R. Travis) writes:
>
>>  Indy Departure:  "57E, Indy departure.  Remain clear of the ARSA.  What
>                      can I do for you?"
>
> OK, I realize that this gets discussed from time to time, but can 
> they *really* do this to you? By saying "57E, Indy departure" they've
> established radio contact and my (perhaps faulty) understanding is
> that they *can not* refuse permission to enter the ARSA.

"Remain clear of the ARSA" is a legitimate ATC instruction, and there
is a FAR against disobeying ATC instructions. If you want to do
something contrary to an ATC instruction, declare an emergency,
enter the ARSA, and let us know how the certificate action goes :-).

It's not the way ARSA's are supposed to operate, but...

> What's the "right" thing to do??

File IFR :-) It's a good question, to which there is no good answer.
Some ARSA's like to play at being a TCA, and there is not much you
can do to stop them. Some TCA's at rinky airports like Charlotte NC
like to pretend they're in New York (and are a lot more objectionable
than New York). It all depends on the facility in question. The price 
you pay for VFR :-)

Mat

Matthew Waugh			waugh@dg-rtp.dg.com
RTP Network Services 		
Data General Corp.		
RTP, NC. (919)-248-6034
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: nolan@twg.com (Nolan Hinshaw)
Subject: The Great Aerial Cascade (was Re: If God had intended...)
Reply-To: nolan@twg.com
Organization: Somewhere West of Nowhere
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:55:42 GMT


In article <skip.118.712498519@mitre.org>, skip@mitre.org (Skip Guild) writes:

|>In article <1029@galileo.rtn.ca.boeing.com> rfh3273@galileo.rtn.ca.boeing.com (Dick Harrigill) writes:
|>>In article <76544@ut-emx.uucp> myers@ut-emx.uucp (Eric Myers) writes:
|>>>Eric Myers     "If God had intended for man to fly 
|>>>                       He would have given us the brains to build airplanes."
|>>He did!
|>She did!
We did!

--
Nolan "Dyed-in-the-wool Humanist" Hinshaw
Internet: nolan@twg.com			Dingalingnet: (415)962-7197	
"... necrophilia doesn't really hurt anybody."  Rick Gordon
From: amazon@sgi.com (Stormwind)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Protecting your logbook
Date: 27 Jul 92 17:02:17 GMT
Organization: X Industries, Heavy Weapons R&D

Phil Jern writes:
>For some reason, I've become paranoid about the idea of losing
>my logbook, and I'd like to know what other rec.aviators do in order
>to preserve their records.  I've been considering xerox^H^H^H^H^H
>photocopying the whole thing, and sticking the copies in the
>safe-deposit box.  What do you do?  

that's exactly what i do.  immediately
after my apartment was burglarized
in february, i got a safe deposit box.  they
are *excellent* for  such valuable things as: stock
certificates, copies of  logbooks/licenses,
pink slips for vehicles, copies of insurance
policies, birth certificates, and various other odds and 
ends that would prove difficult, if not impossible
and prohibitively expensive, to replace; or,
anything that could cost you money or possessions
if a burglar managed to find it.  if you or your 
SO possess heirloom or expensive jewelry, this is 
also a good place to keep it.  (this from experience;
my mom's jewelry got wiped out from our house
many years ago; and my own apartment appeared
to have been entered by a burglar WITH A KEY.
so far the safe deposit box has a better track record
than either of the others.)

summary: safe deposit boxes are as safe
as you can get if you're paranoid.

i also keep a backup copy of my flight log
at work, and yet another at home.  this way,
should any one of the listed places burn to the
ground, i still have another copy.

>Would the photocopies of logbook/endorsements be legal?

well, i went so far as to scan in my logbook,
but that tends to eat up the disk space rapidly.

				stormwind

				hell's amazon
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: hopkins@gvlf9-o.gvl.unisys.com (Bill Hopkins)
Subject: Re: In-flight radar from ground stations?
Summary: see it at Oshkosh!
Reply-To: hopkins@gvl.unisys.com
Organization: Paramax Systems Corp (A Unisys Company), Great Valley Labs, PA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:39:41 GMT

dougm@moses.juliet.ll.mit.edu (Doug Marquis x4018 g41) writes in article
<DOUGM.92Jul28083345@moses.juliet.ll.mit.edu>:
>
>FAA is currently providing limited funding to MIT Lincoln Laboratory
>to investigate the delivery of real-time (updates every 15 mintes)
>graphical weather radar products to a general aviation cockpit.  The
>goals include specific cost targets for avionics equippage, and reuse
>of the data link for other services, such as the traffic information
>service [TIS] (sort of a ground-based TCAS).  The program includes an
>evaluation of a prototype system, which I believe will be installed in
>a C172.

TIS was demo'd with a Mode S Sensor (transponder "radar" system) and a
172 in June.  I have no information on the weather display.

and in article <DOUGM.92Jul28084241@moses.juliet.ll.mit.edu>:
>
>I forgot to add that the traffic information service (TIS) and
>graphical weather products in the GA cockpit can be seen (in demo form)
>at an Oshkosh booth.  Sorry, I don't know which booth, although I
>expect that it will be either FAA or MIT Lincoln Laboratory.
>

I understand that the Mode S sensor at Lincoln Labs (LL) will be
feeding its view of live Logan (BOS) and Hanscom (BED) area traffic
to an exhibit in the FAA hangar.  I don't think a live demo of TIS
is possible, since TIS sends traffic information via the Mode S
datalink to a display in the 172, and the sensor is staying at LL.
There might be video of the TIS demo at LL or a playback of the data
to a TIS display or some such.

When requested by the aircraft, TIS provides an onboard picture of
any traffic within 5 miles horizontally and 1200 feet vertically.
The picture is derived from sensor surveillance reports (based on
Mode A/C/S transponder returns, or primary radar return only).
Unlike TCAS, it provides no advisory information, just the picture.
It is intended for General Aviation, and is the first use of the
datalink that I've heard of that might convince me to lobby King
for a reasonably-priced Mode S transponder.  (The second is the TCA
boundary alert message -- doesn't that sound like a good idea?)

Drop by and see it.  I'm curious what the display is like.

Special disclaimer: I have no official knowledge of any of this, and
it may all be wrong.  We build the sensors, that's all.  Note the
last line of my .sig...

	Bill (they're finally using my code!) Hopkins

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hopkins@GVL.Unisys.Com          Paramax Systems Corporation (A Unisys Company)
215-648-2854 or 363-7464        Great Valley Labs, PO Box 517, Paoli, PA 19301
MXE 016 radial, 8 nmi              Opening my mouth is not company policy.