HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: omhoward@acsu.buffalo.edu (The God-Bitch Emperor of Snuggle Bunnies)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Heredity of homosexuality
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:50:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: acsu.BtpG7p.M78
Organization: UB

In <78584@ut-emx.uucp> zeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Mark Gansle) writes:
q
>klin@husc8.harvard.edu (Karin Lin) writes:
>-->
>In article <1992Aug26.202556.13205@spdc.ti.com>
>achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach) writes:
>>
>>I have a little hard time believing this(born gay). If there was a gay gene, 
>>wouldn't it have been lost somewhere along the way? 

>"If there were a gene for blue eyes, wouldn't it have been lost somewhere along
>the way?"
>-->

>I think what Jeff was saying was that a gene for homosexuality must
>necessarily be evolutionarily disadvantageous.  Women and men who had no
>desire to have sex with members of the opposite sex would be unable to
>bear children and so unable to pass the gene (or genes) for
>homosexuality on to offspring.  Perhaps, one might argue, that the genes
>for sexuality are extremely touchy and the slightest mutation can change
>heterosexuality into homosexuality.  This may be possible, but I think
>it is an idea offensive to most.

>There is in fact little evidence to support the idea that homosexuality
>is hereditary ("nature made me this way").  The best anyone can come up
>with is a statistical *correlation* between the size of a gland in the
>brain and homosexuality.  There is no evidence for causation in any
>form.  Also, a twins study with about 50% match-up of homosexual twins
>is often cited as evidence, but of course that fifty percent is not a
>very strong indicator of heredity.  Even if we assume heredity, we're
>left with the conclusion that a large percentage were anle to *choose*
>not to be homosexual.

>And therein lies the difference between racism and discrimination
>against homosexuals.  One is proven to be hereditary and so cannot be
>changed and is not a subject for ridicule.  The other seems very likely
>to be a personal choice, and like all personal choices, is subject to judgment.

>+-------------------------+-------------------------+
>|Cloud-gathering Zeus     |Think globally.          |
>|                         |Act locally.             |
>|zeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  |Eat my shorts totally.   |
>+-------------------------+-------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:28:32 GMT

achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach) writes:

[...]
>No argument there. Let's drop this thread. Seems inappropriate for this 
>newsgroup. I would be glad to reply by e-mail if desired.
[...]

It is natural for BSA supporters to dislike publicity. The light of
publicity points up their violation of many of their donor's
antidiscrimination policies. It makes it harder to have the convenient
understandings/misunderstandings that allow the BSA to be program that
can violate policy and still get a share of the money.

Example: Last week Bank of America misunderstood a letter from BSA
headquarters to mean that the BSA is open to gay boys. If not for the
article in the San Francisco paper the misunderstanding would probably
go on indefinitely.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Okay, rec.scouting take two...
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:04:54 GMT

vkochend@nyx.cs.du.edu (vance kochenderfer) writes:

>     At the risk of adding yet another list of new group suggestions,
>I believe the best solution would be to create alt.bsa.policy as a
>home for the flame wars. The charter of rec.scouting would remain
>unchanged, since it would then contain 1/10 of the traffic it now has.

I would vote against this reorganization. The current charter of
rec.scouting explictly lists policy as something to be discussed in
rec.scouting.

About turning things around. Since 90% of the current articles are
about policy then why don't we keep the policy discussions in
rec.scouting and create a new rec.scouting.wisdom for discussion of
local tips and experiences?  (I assume you would vote against this
reorganziation.)

I think the fairest reorganization, and one that we could both vote
for, would be to replace rec.scouting with two new newsgroups (say,
rec.scouting.policy and rec.scouting.wisdom).

- Carl






--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: minor@rtsg.mot.com (Kevin Minor)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: chi
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:09:47 GMT

kenk@sdc.com (Ken Konecki) writes:

|>In article <1992Aug21.153006.16090@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
|>>The gist of my letter was:
|>>I don't think United Way chapters should change their charters to
|>>allow support of racially and religiously discriminatory programs.

|>You never supported your thesis.  If you don't like what a charity
|>does with its money, don't give it any of yours.  It's as simple as
|>that.  You need not turn it into a political crusade.

Not supporting it directly still means you support it indirectly 
through their non-profit tax status.
-- 
	/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
	|	Kevin Minor	UUCP: ...uunet!mcdchg!motcid!minor	|
	|			Mail: minor@rtsg.mot.com		|
	\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/
From: see the .sig file, please. Why? To avoid kill files, that's why...
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Definition of "Scouting Spirit"
Keywords: Scouting Spirit Scoutmaster Conference
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:30:17 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

That's a hard one to figure out.

I don't think I'd like to handle it on numbers alone. For the 
Scout requirement, I'd compare the scout's general attitude
and behavior now, as compared to first joining the troop...
Not looking for a BIG change here, just that he's maybe thinking
about the Scout Law & Oath a little bit. Also, does he appear
the least bit enthused about the BSA? Attendance is usually a 
helpful measure of this.

As the scout progresses through the ranks, is he also progressing
in learning what the BSA program is about? As an older scout in the
troop, does he help teach the newbies, or does he always hang out
with the older scouts and ignore the younger scouts?

This one is probably much easier to determine for older scouts than
new ones....

The main problem I see with this method is that of the scout&parents
complaining about it if they don't pass it right off - "How come my
little Bobby didn't get his Tenderfoot like Biff there did?". If
you reply with "Bobby just doesn't show as much enthusiasm in the
program as Biff" you're setting yourself up to lose the scout & 
getting the parent annoyed at you... but if you can point out the 
attendance record, it keeps the SM from being the "bad guy" in the
situation....

Thomas Cronin
Eagle Scout
(Thinking about ASM'ing after graduation)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 ______    Thomas Cronin         "Extinction is not something to contemplate;
(______)   CEE/Theatre Eng.       rather, it is something to rebel against."
   ||      Purdue University      from _The_Fate_of_the_Earth_ by J. Schell
   ||               "Trinitrotoluene is an educational toy." - me
-=NUKE=-      cronin@ecn.purdue.edu or fester@minuet.cc.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1992Aug29.145536.3961@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> <+vhntkg@lynx.unm.edu>
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:16:32 GMT

In article <+vhntkg@lynx.unm.edu> anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:

>    1). Sexual orientation, not preferance.  Until you can prove it is a 
>   choice, which I personally do not believe, the correct term is 
>   orientation.  
 
Well, I won't speak for anyone but myself.  For me it's orientation.
I have no choice in the matter.

>     The "gay rights" agenda (of which I know of none in particular, just a
>  segment of people caring about the same issues) is quie simply you're 
>  way of making an excuse to continue excluding people.  If we dehumanize
>  them, it's easier to discriminate.  Gays aren't immoral, just different
>  morals.  As any other culture has.  Stop being so ethnocentric.  

Amen!

> I'd think 
>  the world has seen enough ethnocentrism this century from Hitler.  

And millions and millions of others....

--
Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu   yip@acca.nmsu.edu
"now we find sodom strange take it out put it in your mouth how do you like
gomorrah now a taste of this swallow that feel the fish hide the hat ezekial
where's your wheel you better grease it GREASE GREASE GREASE GREASE! ROCK!!!"
       --Chainsaw Kittens, "Ezekial Walks Through Sodom and Gomorrah"
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: brahms@delaware.tdd.sj.nec.com (George Skillman  x2921)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: NEC-AM TDD, San Jose, California
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 02:16:19 GMT

In article <1453@frackit.UUCP> daveh@frackit.UUCP (Dave Hultberg) writes:
>I have a question of my own for Carl Kadie.  Based on your statements of
>not funding groups that discriminate based on race, how do you feel
>about the United Negro College Fund?

The UNCF has a noble purpose of trying to help underpriveleged people.
If a person of another race who was underpriveleged appealed to the
UNCF for help, I would hope the UNCF would have sympathy for them by either
giving them help or pointing them to another organization that is set up
specifically for them.  If someone who isn't underpriveleged asked for
help, I'd have all the sympathy I would have for someone driving up in a
Mercedes demanding food at a food kitchen.

>Shouldn't we also withdraw support
>for the Girl Scouts since they don't admit boys or allow men to be the
>troop leader?  Get rid of the Jaycees, they discriminate against older
>men.

I'm not aware of anyone feeling left out because these groups discriminate.
No one is complaining, so what's the problem?  I can't think of a good
hypothetical situation where someone would have reason to complain either.

We *are* complaining, however, about being left out of the BSA.  The BSA cruely
denies people membership on the basis of criteria which they think is the
equivalent of moral leprosy.  They haven't bothered to support this any more
than people have ever supported their prejudices.

>Which private organizations should the United Way or corporations
>support?  Where does it end?  Should we just abolish the United Way? 
>Then we could all just give to the charities of our choice?  The next
>time United Way has their annual drive, take a hard look at who they
>fund.  You might be surprised at the other private organizations with
>restrictive membership criteria that they support.

The United Way has a policy of not supporting organizations that wickedly
debase the dignity of decent people like gays, atheists and people of color,
etc.  This policy will hopefully eventually convince people to take a closer
look at their opinions and finally recognize that there is no foundation
for a prejudice against gays and atheists in the BSA.  How long did it
take the BSA to repent of its wickedness in discriminating against blacks?
How long will it take the BSA to repent of its wickedness in discriminating
against gays and atheists?
--
=============================================================
George Skillman (408) 433-2921
brahms@tdd.sj.nec.com
NEC America
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: jce@cs.scarolina.edu (James C. Evans)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Distribution: usa
Date:  1 Sep 92 14:16:35 GMT

lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:

>I'm curious how atheism is being defined here. I'm an atheist in the sense
>that I don't believe in a "human" god. However I see the universe as being
>a "being" in a very loose sense of the word, I could honestly say that I
>believe in a higher power. However I don't believe in this power being
>outside of the universe, nor do I believe it is omnipotent nor even
>conscious (atleast not in the way we would recognize).

I've raised the issue of definition of "belief" and "God" several
times, with only a couple of responses.  The scout or scouter makes
the various oaths, promises, etc., himself.  I conclude from that
that you choose your own definitions, and yours seems perfectly acceptable.

Chris Evans
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: palane@iastate.edu (Paul A. Lane)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 03:06:54 GMT

In <1992Aug22.151724.29630@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:

>Its up to the business to decide. Wells Fargo and Levi's have decided
>not to support discrimination. BoA has been threatened into supporting
>it again.

Discrimination as defined by requiring some religious afiliation. As I said,
this can be extended to any religous organization.

>For some reason it has not been reported in the newspapers, but a bill
>was introduced in congress that would require Wells Fargo and Levi's to
>support the boyscouts or have all federal money owed them held....

This is pure contract law. Let the courts fight it out.

>>[There are also some distinct differences between being gay and being black,
>>but I do not wish to dilute my argument.]

>Gay's can hide more easily, that doesn't make requiring people to hide
>right.

So can atheists.
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,soc.motss
Subject: Re: [UPI] "Queer Nation Milwaukee to boycott United Way"
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:32:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug26.023254.15186
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: insert anything here


	[NB - Followups are directed to rec.scouting since the tenor
of this thread places it out of the context of soc.motss as defined both
within the soc.motss FAQ and within the stated purpose outlined in 
the first article posted to net.motss (1983).  I direct all inquries
to those sources.]

dpfabie@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David Paul Fabie) writes:
>Here we go again. . . .

>The issue here is not are gays suited to be role models
>for youth.  The issue is the right of a private organization to set
>standards for its membership.  

	What a crock.

	Um so whjy isn't this *private* organization only accepting 
*private* monies?  Why is this *private* organization engaging in
what amounts to terrorism when an outside agency drops support?
(I'm referring here to the attacks on Wells Fargo, Bank of America,
and Levi-Strauss who are all under the gun from the BSA and Fundamental
Xian groups "demanding" that funding be reinstated --- one assumes that
in this country, *voluntary* donations are still that.  It seems the
BSA claims more than one exception...)

	Also, why doesn't the GSA have these problems?

	I think the BSA could be a wonderful organization.  In some
respects it is, but it really needs to decide once and for all
what it's policy is.  It is open to all (including those scouts
who are or will end up being gay), or not.  If not, is it going to
have the backbone to divorce itself from the public coffers, or it
is going to try and get it from both sides?  Perhaps there has been a 
clause added since I was a kid, but I don't remember "hypocrasy"
being included in "morally straight" (which BTW does *not* mean
heterosexual...).

	IF the BSA were to open its doors, the funding concern
pretty much goes away.  IF the BSA switches solely to private
funding and donations then the inclusivity problem goes away.
IT's that simple.  Which is more important to the BSA?

BBC
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination
From: johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 25 Aug 92 23:10:49 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
| In article johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall) writes:
| >In article kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
| >| And now the challenge: Can you suggest a policy that would include the
| >| BSA while excluding the KKK? 
| >
| >A prohibition on funding for groups that discriminated on the
| >basis of race or advocated such.
| 
|      Would then, say, the Nazi party be eligible?  Or any other
| hate group that discriminated on the basis of religion or
| sexual orientation?  Why is race the only basis?

My response was limited to literally meeting the challenge posted
by Carl, which I did.  I don't like hate groups of any type.

No, I don't think the BSA qualifies as any type of hate group.
Restrictive, yes.  Hate, no.

-- 
-------------------------
My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:05:50 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
| In article johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall) writes:
| > The policy was changed because it was broad to the point of being
| > a little ridiculous.  A hate group based upon racial discrimination
| > is not compareable to a woman's sewing club.
| 
| Are you saying that racial discrimination is bad, but religious or sexual
| discrimination is OK?

Racial discrimination is wrong as a matter of principle, while 
the morality of religious or sexual discrimination is 
contingent on the particular circumstances.

Nothing is wrong with a woman's sewing club.  Something may be
very *right* with single sex schools for women (academically,
they do better particularly in secondary education in the
math and science fields -- its complex).

Likewise, I wouldn't show any tolerance to a revival of Aztec
blood rituals or practicing MBLA pedophiles.

On the other hand, I approve of female combat pilots
(as opposed to infantry if you want to start a long often
visited discussion).



-- 
-------------------------
My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kathy@oracorp.com ()
Subject: Philadelphia trip - thank you!!!
Keywords: Fun...Fun...Fun!!!
Organization: ORA Corporation, Ithaca, New York
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:43:27 GMT


I wanted to write and thank all of those fellow scouts for the
information they gave that allowed us to plan such an outstanding
trip for our Cadette/Seniors.

The Philadelphia trip was wonderful!  What an opportunity
to mix history, culture and a lot of fun into a few short days.

And, thanks to one of the planners who is affiliated with the 
Boy Scouts, we were able to find some GREAT accommodations at
the "Team Philadelphia" Naval Base.  I know.....teenage girls
on a naval base sounds frightening, but we had a wonderful
time; no significant problems, and the girls did enjoy
mealtimes :).

The success of this trip can be attributed, in part, to the
establishment of this newsgroup.  I hope that more of my
fellow leaders/volunteers can profit from it as well.


Kathy Knight
Fellow Scout

                  kathy@oracorp.com


Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2755 alt.politics.homosexuality:5630
From: mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Crossposting articles with rec.scouting (was Re: BofA and UW ...)
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:44:18 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization


In article <1992Aug27.193624.19749@m.cs.uiuc.edu>
kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
> Maybe rec.scouting should be split into several unmoderated
> newsgroups.

I must strongly object.  First you (as a group) invade their newsgroup,
then rather than buggering off when asked, you propose to *split* it so
you can keep posting to it?  This is completely inappropriate.

I have yet to hear someone from rec.scouting actually indicate that
they want to read this tripe.

-- 
 \   Charles Hannum, mycroft@ai.mit.edu
 /\  White heterosexual atheist male (WHAM) pride!
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Crossposting articles with rec.scouting (was Re: BofA and UW ...)
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 19:36:24 GMT

[Follow up to rec.scouting. - Carl]

popelka@odysseus.uchicago.edu (Glenn Popelka) writes:

[...]
>  I've never understood cross-posting. An interesting topic in 
> alt.politics.homosexuality can't be expected to generate the
> same enthusiasm in rec.scouting or chi.general.
[...]

It can if it involves news about scouting in Chicago, as this one did.

Also, it is more common to crosspost in alt.* groups and regional
groups because many can not access particular groups.

[...]
>  Imagine if somebody cross-posted to alt.pat.buchannan and aph,
> which lead to hundreds of followups in aph from rabid buchannan 
> fans.  Some people would be irritated by that, and there's no
> reason why they shouldn't be.
[...]

Heaven forbid that people might read the words of people who disagree
with them.

Maybe rec.scouting should be split into several unmoderated
newsgroups. The challenge is creating names and charters that the
people who post will go along with. As a practical matter, it is
impossible to limit an unmoderated newsgroup to a particular viewpoint
(say, pro-BSA administration.) If a split is possible, it must be made
along the lines of topics, rather than viewpoints.  Moreover, the
names and charters that define topics must be clear and seem fair to
all viewpoints.

Here is a possible split:

  rec.scouting.policy - discussion of policy of scouting groups worldwide
                       (e.g. BSA membership policy)
  rec.scouting.local - discussion of ideas and programs for local scout
                       troops/groups.
                       (e.g. winter camping equipment)
  rec.scouting.misc - discussion of scouting topics not covered by more
                      specific rec.scouting newsgroups.
                        (e.g. what is the scout law in other countries?)

- Carl

--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign