From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Cone threw how many pitches?
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:37:55 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.204007.16615@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <20218@bunker.shel.isc-br.com> jerry@bunker.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald J. Lanza) writes:
>>***********************************************************************
>>|>Besides, the game was different then.  Pitchers didn't go all out
>>|>on every pitch.  Probably less stressful.
>>***********************************************************************
>>
>>	Now that's a scientific statement if I ever saw one. May I ask
>>	how one arrives at the conclusion that the game was less
>>	stressful for pitcher's back then ?

>It is a commonly held belief among baseball people that the old-time
>pitchers saved their "best stuff" for key situations.  Perhaps it is
>merely another myth.  But it might have something to do with it.

It has my vote. I don't think there was the emphasis on pure heat that 
there is now. You probably could throw more pitches if you weren't throwing 
as hard as posiible on every pitch.

>>	The fact of the matter is that pitcher's pitched every fourth
>>	game, and therefore had one less day of rest between games.

>Which actually should lead to *more* stamina, not less.  The ideal
>training schedule is to be out there exercising as soon as your body
>has recovered from the last time.  I don't quite understand why
>starting pitchers need so long to recover from a start.  Unless they
>are actually *damaging* their bodies, they should be fully recovered
>after two.

I think in most cases, a muscle under full extension AND fully exerted is 
pretty damaged. May take longer to recover. And if you do this too much 
at one time, it may never recover.

>>	The reason for today's pitcher's apparent fraility may be due
>>	to the softer life style to which we all have become accustomed.

>Or it may be due to more pitches per batter.  Or the pitchers may be
>throwing harder (and more hard breaking balls).  Or the mound might be
>lower, forcing them to throw more with their arms and less with their
>legs.  Blaming it on a "softer lifestyle" is easy, but doesn't explain
>why baseball players are so much faster and stronger than they used to
>be.  Or is speed/strength detrimental to endurance?

It's quite possible that the newer training methods get athletes closer to
the limits the human body can be expected reach. Pushing oneself as much as
possible at that point can be expected to cause damage.

>>	P.S. Check out some of Nolan Ryan's pitch counts in the past.
>>	     I believe he has thrown well over 200 pitches in games.

>How about other pitchers of that era?  Did they throw equally many
>pitches?  Did they have long or short careers?  We all know that Ryan
>is a robot, so he is a poor example to use.

As nearly as I can determine, MOST of the high K total, high IP pitchers came
roughly out of that era. Guys like Carlton, Seaver, McDowell, Perry, Drysdale,
Koufax, Gobson, Richard, etc, regularly racked up > 250 IP and > 250 k. 
In some cases, 300/300 was not all that unusual. This seemed to last for 
(roughly) 20 years (1960 ~ 1980); Carlton was, I believe, the last pitcher with
over 300+ IP. Considering the amount of walks and hit some of these guys gave
up (you pitch THAT many innings, you're gonna give up both), I don't think it's
too far-fetched to imagine 150 pitches/per game was regularly exceeded.

What MAY have happened is something like this

In "the old days", pitchers were expected to pitch the full game. They paced
themselves, threw a lot of innings, racked up their Ks  in the course of 
pitching a full game. Some legitimate strikeout pitchers of course; Johnson, 
eg, my personal pick for all-time best pitcher, and Feller, but even THEY led
the league with as few as 164 strikeouts. The 50s really saw an explosion of 
HR hitters; more guys had their first 40+ HR season that decade than any other,
INCLUDING the 60s, with its 2 expansions in each league (I can post histograms,
if anyone is interested).

Pitchers, in response, start throwing harder, racking up more Ks, but still
pitching the same amount of innings (or trying to). While some of the above-
mentioned pitchers were anomalies, someone eventually noticed more than the
previous normal amount of "tired arms", arm surgeries, etc, on otherwise good
young pitchers. I believe Chance, Tannana, Koufax, and other great stikeout
pitchers had their careers shortened or altered by arm problems. Palmer, too,
had a reputation for heat when he first came up. He had arm problems early
as well. Then there was Gary Nolan, Bill Singer, etc. Eventually, IP were 
cut back. 

That's the best I can do. If anyone has anything more likely, please post it.

Mike
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