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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:04:00 EDT
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From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 2874
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                             THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                                 Issue # 2874

                          Thursday, August 13, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******

                           Blink Talk Digest # 685

                         Re: SlimWare Window Bridge
                          Re: Windows access maybe
                            Braille Publications
                          Re: Braille N Speak Compl
                           Punctuation and Speech
                          Re: Braille N Speak Compl
                              Lavender Braille
                             Re: "Blind Loyalty"
                          Re: Braille N Speak Compl
                          Re: Braille N Speak Compl


                                ******


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Subject: Re: SlimWare Window Bridge
From: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Keith Bucher)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 Quoting Darrell Shandrow to David Tanner 31 Jul 92 13:10:08

 DS> i also was not offered a
 DS> chance to have a handson demo of it even though there was no one else
 DS> at the table at that time.

Nope, and neither was I.  For you see, Synthavoice would rather not have
hands on demos.  We might find out how it really works, or what most
likely is the case:  What really does not work.  This is just more of
the flim flammery they use.  Just trust us, give us your money. That's
Slimware Synthavoice for you.  I don't think they even showed up at NFB.
Hey Slimware, where's the beef?  Where's that windows bridge demo?  You
know, guys, you could always come out with it and prove me wrong.
Keith Bucher.

... "OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MY MIND!"

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Keith.Bucher
Internet: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Windows access maybe
From: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Keith Bucher)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 Quoting Marvin Rush to David Tanner 26 Jul 92 23:24:04

 MR> you haven't seen it that sure doesn't mean that it's vapor ware.

No, it means that it probably doesn't work.  Or if it does, why doesn't
good old David put out a Demo.  And I can assure you that
Synthavoice's reputation here in the United States has a hell of a
lot to be desired.  Not many people are going to send David $500.00
when he doesn't have a demo.  And why doesn't he?  Maybe he's afraid
that we'll find out what it's really like, how it really works.  Just
like the Nomad. It sure the heck was vaporware. David told me time and
time again what drives it would have, and all about it. But it never
materialized, like so many items from this company.I ask you, Marvin, if
Synthavoice has such good products, where are their U.S. users?  And why
don't I hear all of them talking about it?  A few years ago I read an
article in Technology Update that talked about even the Canadian
Government having problems with Synthavvoice.  The fact is,
Slimware cannot compete with all our screen readers and synthesizers. It
may sell in Canada, but too many people down here have seen too many
broken promises from this company. Synthavoice is 99.9 percent talk.
Keith Bucher.

... Warning:Trespassers will be violated.

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Keith.Bucher
Internet: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Braille Publications
From: Gary.Petraccaro@f12.n2610.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:2610/12 - Post Road Inn, Greensburg PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

* Original Area: HANDY.SYSOP
* Original From: David Andrews (1:275/13)
* Original To  : All (1:2610/12)

* Original Area: NFB-TALK
* Original From: Curtis Chong (1:261/1125)
* Original To  : All (1:261/1125)

Greetings:

This is an announcement about two braille publications that NFB
conventioneers will be able to purchase at the NFB Store:

                       USING CDROM DRIVES
                     AND MICROSOFT BOOKSHELF
                        by Steve Jacobson
and
                   INTRODUCTION TO WORDPERFECT
                  Using Screen Reading Software
                        By Steve Jacobson

Both of these publications are terrific for non-technical users
and contain information that will be helpful to "power" users,
too.  Each publication (available in braille) will be selling for
$10 per copy.

The author, Steve Jacobson, works as an advanced
programmer-analyst at the 3M Corporation and serves as a board
member of the National Federation of the Blind in Computer
Science.  Both publications are sponsored by the National
Federation of the Blind in Computer Science.

If you are interested in purchasing one or both of the above
titles, make your way to the NFB Store in the exhibit area during
exhibit hours at this year's national convention in Charlotte.

Cordially, Curtis Chong

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!2610!12!Gary.Petraccaro
Internet: Gary.Petraccaro@f12.n2610.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Braille N Speak Compl
From: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 KB> said on this echo before, and I'll say it again.  It isn't all
 KB> bad, but for the price of that bNS, and taking in to account
 KB> how little it can actually do along with the notebooks out
 KB> there such as yours, why in the world does everyone and his
 KB> brother, and sister, for that matter, seem to have one?

Keith,
     And I've said this before in this echo, and I'll say it again...

     The reason you saw hundreds of people at the ACB convention with
their Braille 'n Speaks tossed over their shoulder is..

1.  Many of them probably have never used a computer, wanted to use a
computer, and simply wanted a braille input device that can store all
those little things that sighted people keep in a similarly sized paper
pad.

2.  Chuck spoke about his 6 pound notebook, which I assume doesn't
include the external synthesizer he would also have to carry around if
he wanted to use it like a Braille 'n Speak!  You have any idea what the
difference between 2 pounds and 6 pounds plus can mean to convenience?

3.  The size and unobtrusiveness of a notebook computer and synthesizer
and a Braille 'n Speak can't even begin to be compared, and anyone who
thinks they can has obviously not experienced carrying them both around,
something I have done!

4.  Although comparing a Braille 'n Speak and a notebook computer may
not be an apples and oranges thing, it is most definitely an oranges
versus grapefruit thing, and yes, although this doesn't justify a high
price tag at today's standards, the BNS has been around a hell of a lot
longer than the new, low priced notebook computers!

     I will admit, the price of the Braille 'n Speak coming down would
make me a lot happier, but you guys comparing it with the price of a
notebook computer cracks me up!  Let's add to that notebook computer
price a synthesizer, a speech program, and just the software necessary
to duplicate the things the Braille 'n Speak does do, and we're talking
a far more expensive item.  Even after we do all this, the portability
just isn't there, nor is the braille input capability some may prefer!
How can you be ignoring the fact that a notebook computer isn't an
adaptive device, so it has a very large potential market!  Since when
does comparing the price of a device that is in the general market with
a device that has only the visually disabled as a market result in
anything but these kinds of results???

     It isn't ignorance that has produced so many happy Braille 'n Speak
owners, it's simple satisfaction with the product!
                                        Willie

... It's easy to see both sides of an issue you're not concerned with!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Punctuation and Speech
From: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:396/5.18 - Pontchippi, New Orleans LA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Dave, while in jaws, you can set a pause, if you want to set
intonation, you have to leave some punctuation on.  Since I don't
like to hear any punctuation, I have to turn my punctuation off,
and I can't get intonation from my accent.  Furthermore, I wish we
had a way to turn on punctuation, and then tell jaws which
punctuation we want to hear like tinytalk gives their customers.  I
have mentioned this to Ted, but he does not seem interested in
doing anything about it.

Walter

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Braille N Speak Compl
From: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:396/5.18 - Pontchippi, New Orleans LA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 CH> Hi, Willy.
 CH> Boy, that BNS is really being pushed to be something that it is not. I
 CH> recently paid $1000 for a brand new notebook computer that weighs five
 CH> pounds, has 640k, a 20M fixed disk, a 3.5 inch floppy, and runs DOS 5,
 CH> the 4DOS shell, and I installed WordStar version 7 and a whole shipload
 CH> of other neat stuff. How much do they want for the BNS 640 nowadays that
 CH> runs one external program? ... Chuck.

Chuck, I am not pushing the braille n speak, but if you are going
to compare prices, let's add to the cost of that notebook, a speech
synthesizer, and te speech program, and now how much does it cost?

     Walter

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Lavender Braille
From: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:396/5.18 - Pontchippi, New Orleans LA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Warren, I still have a sony 105 that worked the last time I tried
it out, and I also have and old wolensak t1500 tape recorder which
was a real workhorse.  I just sold a lavendar braillor about a year
or so that still worked fine.  The only time that it quit working
was when someone dropped it, but they fixed it to work fine.  Of
course they don't work like a perkins, but neither is the price the
same.

I remember those old talking book machines.  I thought that blind
services took them out of existance by now.

Walter

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: "Blind Loyalty"
From: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:396/5.18 - Pontchippi, New Orleans LA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

all organizations tend to look down
 DS> on members who openly share discenting viewpoints outside that
 DS> organization.   don't tell me that acb doesn't have this problem too

I have never heard of anyone to be expelled from ACB for doing that.

Walter

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Braille N Speak Compl
From: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Keith Bucher)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 Quoting William Wilson to Keith Bucher 03 Aug 92  12:50:03

 WW> The reason you saw hundreds of people at the ACB convention with
 WW> their Braille 'n Speaks tossed over their shoulder is..
 WW>
 WW> 1.  Many of them probably have never used a computer, wanted to use a
 WW> computer, and simply wanted a braille input device that can store all
 WW> those little things that sighted people keep in a similarly sized
 WW> paper pad.

Hello Willie, Maybe that's good, but on the other hand, if they've never
seen a computer, and as long as they have their Braille 'n Speaks,
maybe they never will.  Maybe the braille n speak stands in the way
of computer literacy.

WW> 2. Chuck spoke about his 6 pound
WW> notebook, which I assume doesn't include the external
WW> synthesizer he would also have to carry around if he wanted to
WW> use it like a Braille 'n Speak!  You have any idea what
WW> the difference between 2 pounds and 6 pounds plus can mean
to convenience?

About four pounds, (6 minus 4) equals 2, not to mention hundreds of
dollars in capability.  And Willie, you mentioned convenience.  When
you consider you are using a machine on which you can't run any
of your programs, now that's convenience!  Also one can still get
internal synthesizers for most of the Toshiba laptops from Aicom and gW
Micro. But let's stick with the cheaper route for the time being, just
for comparison. Tinytalk and the external echo are about $200.00
bringing the price of Chuck's computer to about $1,200.00. Okay, then we
have to do a little subtracting from his computer.  How much is the
floppy drive worth?  How much is the hard drive worth?  How much is the
ability to run all your programs worth? In pounds, (not british) maybe
four or five.  But you get a heck of a lot more capability and
flexability for the money. Let's say the floppy drive is worth $75.00
and the hard drive $150.00. Thus we now subtract $225.00 from the price
of $1,200.00 leaving us essencially back where we started from.  And
someone such as you or I, or even Chuck, already has his own screen
reader, and maybe even an external synthesizer, so this comparison might
not be valid in many cases where someone owns another computer in
addition to the Braille 'N Speak.  And the additional ability to have
both floppy and hard disks for backing up your data is certainly worth
something. The reason there's not much weight to the Braille < 'N Speak
is simply that it just cannot do that much.  You're comparing
two different items, a limited note taker vs an actual computer with
screen, ports, replacable nicad, and both floppy and hard drives. If the
BNS incorporated these items it would weigh a few pounds more as well. I
don't know about the 640 model, but the older bns used the old
antiquated Hitachi chip which was used by the Eureka A4. And if you're
going to use the braille 'n speak primarily for note taking, why not
just use a tape recorder? This way you have your notes already backed
up, saving you the $500.00 for the floppy drive. Can you imagine people
paying $1,300.00 for a hand held tape recorder?

WW> 3. The size and unobtrusiveness of a notebook
WW> computer and synthesizer and a Braille 'n Speak can't even begin
WW> to be compared, and anyone who thinks they can has obviously not
experienced carrying them WW> both around, something I have done!

You're right on this one Willie.  The size cannot be compared, and
neither can the features.  It's like carrying a slate and stylus as
opposed to a braille printer.

WW> 4. Although comparing a Braille 'n
WW> Speak and a notebook computer may not be an apples and oranges
thing, it is most definitely an oranges versus grapefruit thing, and
WW> yes, although this doesn't justify a high price tag at today's
WW> standards,

Willie, what indeed does justify the high price of the Braille 'N
Speak?

WW> the BNS has been around a hell of a lot longer than the new,
WW> low priced notebook computers!

All the more reason it should have come down instead of going up.
Especially when you consider that the users have discovered most of the
bugs for him and that in my opinion it will stay expensive as long as
people continue to buy it at nearly thirteen hundred dollars.
 If he was going to have the 640, why not make it so that one could
 download programs from a computer and run them as well.  I ask
 you Willie, How many sighted people would pay $1,300.00 for a note
 taker which can't even run a DOS program?  And by having its own
 word processor, and incorporating a spell checker, Deane Blazie is
 simply trying to re-invent the wheel.  How much better it would be
 if one could use their own programs.  With this and an internal disk
 drive, I'd even consider it.

WW> I will admit, the price  of the Braille 'n Speak coming down
WW> would make me a lot happier,

It's not likely as long as people are willing to pay $1,300.00 for
it.  With its obsolete chip, nonremovable nicads and no internal
storage, although it may have been in the past, it just is no longer
a good alternative.  And Willie, let's discuss price a bit further.
How about that external $500.00 floppy drive?  One can buy a 100MB hard
drive for less than $500.00.  I can obtain a 3.5 inch 1.44 drive
from PC Connection for slightly more than $200.00 which will work
through the parallel port on any computer.  Sure it's AC only, but
it's not $500.00 either.  And to be sure, his has a battery. But
for $250.00, I'll plug mine in.  You know Willie, what really gets
to me is the fact that nonadaptive items in this industry are many
times much more expensive than they should be.  This $500.00 floppy
drive is a good example.  Some things cost quite a lot in this field
such as braille printers, screen readers, and synthesizers. But such
items as floppy drives, serial/parallel cables, etc are for the most
part nonadaptive items. The trouble is: The vendors can take advantage
of this because many blind people just do not know how much extra
they're paying.

WW> but you guys comparing it with the price of a notebook computer
WW> cracks me up!

Me too.  He wouldn't have a chance of selling even one Braille 'N Speak
to the sighted world.  I can hear the questions now.  What?  You mean
it won't run any of my programs?

WW> Let's add to that notebook computer price a synthesizer, a speech
WW> program, and just the software necessary to duplicate the things
WW> the Braille 'n Speak does do, and we're talking a far more
WW> expensive item.  Even after we do all this, the portability just
WW> isn't there,

And neither are all the features and capabilities.

WW> nor is the braille input capability some may prefer!

Now there you have me, Willie.  Unknowingly, you just mentioned
what just may be the only real virtue of the Braille 'N Speak, providing
that the translator is excellent, of course.

WW> How can you be ignoring the fact that a notebook computer isn't
WW> an adaptive device,

I'm not ignoring it.  For it doesn't matter whether or not a device is
adaptive or nonadaptive.  What matters is its value vs cost ratio.
What features and flexability it has and how it will perform for the
end user.  There's no reason to buy an adaptive device simply because
it happens to be available.  A good case in point is the TSI Speech
Plus calculator.  The Sharp was a fraction of the price and with more
capability.  The el640 is still available.  I'm comparing the two
devices not adaptive vs nonadaptive, but on their own merits.
Sometimes we need adaptive devices we don't have.  Sometimes we have
adaptive devices we really don't need.  Especially as note books get
better, more powerful, and less expensive all the time.  For someone who
may not want a computer the bNS may be the way to go, but most people
usually want to go up in this old world. Remember those slow modems you
and I use to use?

WW> Since when does comparing the price of a device
WW> that is in the general market with a device that has only the
WW> visually disabled as a market WW> result in anything but these kinds
WW> of results?

Willie, comparisons are to the good of us all when everyone who's
interested can get a clear idea of this equipment.  When people can
learn in what ways a particular piece of equipment performs by hearing
others talk about it.  They don't have to rely just on the word of Deane
Blazie, or you or me, for that matter.  They can decide what they want
the device to do and then decide whether or not it's for them.  They
don't have to rely just on sales hype or brochures.  Another
example.  Radio Shack sells a talking multimeter for about $100.00.
Science products sells an adaptive one for what at least at one time
was around $600.00.  As with anything else, it's not merely a
question of comparing the adaptive one with the nonadaptive one.
But instead, which one meets your needs vs cost involved.  People
should know about each one.  In conclusion, all I can say is:  It's
ashame that we can't hear as much, read as many magazine articles,
and hear as many magazine tape articles about all other items used
by the blind as we have the Braille 'N Speak.  For better or worse,
it's gotten more publicity than any item I have ever heard about.
People should know the rest of the story as well.  Keith.

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Keith.Bucher
Internet: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Braille N Speak Compl
From: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Keith Bucher)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 Quoting Walter Siren to Chuck Hallenbeck 01 Aug 92 13:56:32

 WS> Chuck, I am not pushing the braille n speak, but if you are going to
 WS> compare prices, let's add to the cost of that notebook, a speech
 WS> synthesizer, and te speech program, and now how much does it cost?

Hello Walter, while you're adding the speech synthesizer and screen
reader to Chuck's notebook, I'm subtracting the cost for both the hard
and floppy drive from it.  For the Braille 'N Speak has neither  What'd
do you suppose they cost?  And what do we subtract for the availability
to run your own MS-DOS programs? And how many times faster do you
suppose that notebook runs than the braille 'N Speak?  If it has a
removable ni-cad, what's that worth? Considering that Chuck obviously
already has Provox and if he used the least expensive synthesizer
around, the external Echo, we can now do some serious calculations.  How
do they really compare?  Keith Bucher.

 WS> -!- msged 2.07
 WS>  ! Origin: The Turning Point -- New Orleans, LA  (1:396/5.18)

... "OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MY MIND!"

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Keith.Bucher
Internet: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




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                                ******

                  End of Issue # 2874 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU