From: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Subject: Re: Buchanan's speech at convention
Reply-To: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:19:08 GMT


In a previous article, jswitzer@afit.af.mil (Chip Switzer) says:

>mcgead@operators.its.rpi.edu (Darren McGeary) writes:
>
>>Here is the beginning of Mr. Buchanan's oft-stated belief that only
>>morals that are derived from Judeo-Christian religions are worth anything.
>>Also his belief that the USA is a 'christian nation'.  Both beliefs are
>>wrong.
>
>Gee, there is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.  Take a look at 
>some of your pocket change for instance.
>
Strange...the coins I carry say "In God We Trust" (which, by the way, was
added to currency ca. 1883, to try to reassure people during the Civil War
that the money the government produced was actually worth something).  It
does not say "In Christianity we trust"

Being a nation populated primarily by Christians does not make this a 
Christian nation, any more than a bucket being filled with water makes
it a water bucket.

If you want the truth, consult the first amendment of the constitution.
It holds a clue.

[comments on abortion deleted]

>
>>Everytime I hear Buchanan speak, I constantly wonder to myself what
>>evil things homosexuals have done to him that he hates them so much.
>>Or could it be a case of 'Me thinks thou doth protest too much'?
>
>Good one!
>
But not totally without merit.  This theory has been around for quite
a while, and Mr. Buchannon has never directly denied it.


>>How can the government give tax incentives for people to send their kids
>>to a religious school without it being a violation of church and state
>>separation.  Yet another example of churches only wanting to be separate
>>until it costs them money.
>
>It is more a rebate than a tax incentive.  We would simply be getting
>the money back that we had paid for our children to go to a public
>school.
>

Wrong.  As 90 % of school funds come from local property taxes, the 
money the government would give to these parents would be coming from
the general fund.  Further, being a land owner is not a prerequisite
to receiving the funds.  It would be available to all parents, even
those who do not contribute to the tax-base.

>
>  From a completely pragmatic point of view, this is the only 
>thing that is going to save education in this country. Aside from the
>NEA's liberal agenda for my kids, just like most other unions, they have
>brought the system they work for to the brink of collapse.  Add to that
>the beaurocracy that is inherent in public schools and the only
>alternative is to start over using the private sector--the only sector 
>that really works in this country.
>
While I have a problem with the NEA myself, a better solution to the 
problem in our public schools would be, instead of trashing them and
starting over, let's give the funds the government has earmarked to
these private programs to them, and allow them to pay teachers what they're
worth, so that the public schools aren't stuck only with those persons
who couldn't succeed elsewhere.  In this way, again the best candidates
would be attracted to the teaching profession.

>> 
>>This is a joke.  How can ANYONE seriously compare going to war in WWII
>>and being DRAFTED into the Vietnam war.  And why didn't Buchanan bring
>>up a certain VP who through his daddy's connections avoided Vietnam by
>>joining the National Guard?
>
>He didn't have to.  NBC news did it for him--during the speech. 
>
That's not the point.  The Republicans are throwing stones at Clinton
for having done something that Mr. Quayle is guilty of himself.

>
>>1)There already is freedom-of-choice for religious schools
>
>Just like the argument we hear all the time supporting abortion, there
>isn't any freedom of choice if you can't afford it.  It is only an option
>if you are above average income.

See above.

[further speculation on Mr. Buchannon's sexuality deleted.]
>
>>  
>>There already is voluntary prayer in schools.  No one is trying to
>>stop it.  Oh!!! He probably meant SCHOOL-SANCTIONED voluntary prayer. :)
>
>I have to agree with you on this one...  Nobody is stopping anyone from
>praying at school.  I guess it's the principle of the thing.  If they
>took out the Pledge of Alegence (have they done that yet?) they could 
>tell you that you could pledge your alegence silently any time you want
>without the school sanctioning it.  We wouldn't want to offend anyone 
>who might hate our country...
>

I have two comments on this.

About school prayer:
The premise of voluntary school prayer is that there would be a 
sanctioned prayer by the school official (be it teacher or administrator)
and that those students who chose not to participate did not have to
do so.  The problem with this is that since it is the school official
who would be leading the prayer, the students would feel compelled
to participate, either under fear of punishment or fear of ridicule.

About the pledge of Allegence:

I'm not sure whether your comment is directed toward the issue of
the "Under God" clause, or the idea of forced patriotism.  If it's the
former, know that a majority of school systems have removed the "Under
God" clause as unconstitutional.  Further, the clause was not originally
part of the pledge of allegence.  It was added sometime in the 50's by 
(I believe) Maimie Eisenhower, and has never been formalized, but had
become "traditional" usage. (Just as "...so help me God" at the end of
the oath of office is not official, and was added first by Dwight D. 
Eisenhower at his first Inauguration in 1953.  Check the constitution
for verification of this.)
If it's the later, then, in my opinion, the ritualized forced
patriotism present in every school, and recited mechanically by every child,
is just as bad as the forced morality proposed by those who would wish
to place prayer back in school.  

And while I do not hate America, for that reason, I do not recite the
pledge, nor should anyone who wishes not to do so.

-- 
*...your Friendly Neighborhood Atheist // "Peter...PETER!!  I can see    *
*      the KelleyMan:Kelley L. Miller // your house from here!"          *    
*                  ae642@yfn.ysu.edu // Jesus Christ, from the cross     *
****************Know God...No peace.  No God...Know peace.****************