HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shane@cs.sunysb.edu (Shane Bouslough)
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, State U of NY at Stony Brook
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:52:30 GMT

Robert Withrow (witr@rwwa.COM) must have had a bad day when he wrote:

: In article <1993Jan20.163643.13042@sbcs.sunysb.edu>,
:  shane@cs.sunysb.edu (Shane Bouslough) writes:
: | fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
: | 
: | : Yeah, really huge cost.  Just get the Solaris sampler CD, which
: | : includes a Solaris version (complete) of the GNU compiler.  Costs you
: | : all of $0.
: | 
: | Please tell me where I can get a CDROM drive for $0 so I can put my
: | Solaris sampler CD for $0 in it. Thanks.
: 
: I will, just as soon as you can tell me where to get a free computer
: to put the free drive into.
: 
: And what about a free house with free electricity to put the free computer
: into?
: 
: Cheesh.

You missed the point by several parsecs. One topic in this thread is
trying to compare UNIX systems by listing features and cost for the
platforms of interest. I felt the post I replied to made a big assumption
that all sites have a CDROM drive. There was an implied smilie in my
reply, I guess you missed it.

: There are enough free or nearly free CDROMS with stuff on them that
: the cost of a drive pays for itself in reduced network costs in a 
: very short time.

Totally subjective. If this is so clear, why are so many people raising
the issue of development package costs? Are they just dumb? *YOU* try
and tell my site admin that CDROM drives are "free".

: (Of course, I know that those of you in the .edu domain believe or
: are taught to believe that everything is either free or should be free.
: So I suggest you ask your professor for the drive.)

Well, I can tell the previous paragraph is content free. BTW, I was in
the .com domain for a decade before I went back to school, just for the
record. Anyway, I think you will find that of the systems discussed so
far, a CDROM drive was not an assummed component and I still believe
development package costs are a valid concern when comparing systems.

: Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 598 4480, Fax: +1 617 598 4430, Net: witr@rwwa.COM
: R.W. Withrow Associates, 21 Railroad Ave, Swampscott MA 01907-1821 USA

-Shane

--
Shane Bouslough       | #include <stddisc.h>
shane@sbcs.sunysb.edu | "Follow your bliss" - Joseph Campbell
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1340 biz.sco.general:5586 comp.unix.sys5.r3:417 comp.unix.sysv386:17912
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: Where to get manuals for Sys 5 R:4.2
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:01:40 GMT


Here is the listing of SVR4.2 manuals, their cost, ISBN numbers
and release dates from Prentice Hall.  If you'd like to order
any, the single order number is 515-284-6761.  I had the list
typed in as I received it from Prentice Hall.  I imagine those
listed as available in January, are indeed available.  I'm
checking on what they mean by "Special Order" for those three
volumes.

Ry Schwark
USL PR
ry@usl.com


Administration Series

0-13-042573-7 Basic System Administration     672 $32.00 06-Jan-93
0-13-042565-6 Advanced System Administration  416 $28.00 06-Jan-93
0-13-017633-8 Network Administration	      656 $32.00 11-Jan-93
0-13-066887-7 Audit Trail Administration      192 $20.00 15-Mar-93
0-13-066820-6 PC-Interface Administration     160 $20.00 15-Mar-93

User's Series

0-13-017708-3 User's Guide		      672 $32.00 15-Mar-93
Special Order Desktop Quick-Start	       32 $10.00 AVAILABLE
Special Order Desktop Handbook		      592 $36.00 AVAILABLE
Special Order Installation Guide	      160 $18.00 AVAILABLE
1-56205-114-8 Guide to UNIX Desktop	      709 $34.95 15-Oct-92

Reference Series

0-13-042599-0 Command Reference (a-1)	      960 $38.00 20-Jan-93
0-13-042607-5 Command Reference (m-z)	      976 $38.00 20-Jan-93
0-13-017658-3 Operating System API Reference 1088 $39.00 20-Jan-93
0-13-017716-4 Windowing System API Reference  800 $34.00 20-Jan-93
0-13-017682-6 System Files & Devices Ref.     608 $32.00 22-Jan-93
0-13-042631-8 Device Driver Reference	      544 $32.00 15-Mar-93


Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1406 comp.unix.sys5.r4:1428
From: mbarkah@slate.mines.colorado.edu (Ade Barkah)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sys5.r4
Subject: Re: Running UUGETTY under Sys V R:4.2
Date: 28 Jan 93 19:31:03 GMT
Organization: Colorado School of Mines

I tried to make sense out of all the sysv mechanisms to handle
ports, and finally told my self that it's not worth doing for
managing one or two serial ports.

In svr4, everything is under the `Service Access Facility',
under which you use the sacadm administrative command and 
configure `port monitors' (with pmadm.) Then these port mon
-itors manages services, such as ttymon (which you configure 
using yet another command, ttyadm.)

Within sysadm there is also a `Quick Port Setup' or something
like that. However, I believe this is badly broken, since it
changes some kernel parameters incorrectly. It might be in
Eric's bug-FAQ.

So, I decided to use uugetty. Sure, it `will not be supported'
in future releases, but that's for another day...


-Ade
-- 
Internet  : mbarkah@slate.mines.colorado.edu    (NeXT Mailable)
CompuServe: 74160,3404
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1330 biz.sco.general:5573 comp.unix.sys5.r3:411
From: davidsen@ariel.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:19:59 GMT
Reply-To: davidsen@crd.ge.com (bill davidsen)
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center, Schenectady NY

In article <1993Jan25.004847.19214@xenitec.on.ca>, merce@xenitec.on.ca (Jim Mercer) writes:

| if SCO/Esix/Concensys were giving me horsepower enabling 100 user's i could
| understand the price bump, but there is no difference between the 2 user,
| and the unlimited except that the 2 user version is braindamaged (must be
| in order to limit multi-user software to the absolute minimum definition
| of multi-user).

  The two user comes from this: once the personal UNIX workstation
because a reality, vendors wanted lower licensing fees to drop the
system price. ATT picked 2 user so you could have one on the console and
a uucp login. There's also a 16 user price point, I believe, but it's
not worth the effort.

  The problem has been with vendors understanding two users. At one
point one vendor (Microport??) counted separate VTs as users, then
everyone counted the console as one, regardless of VTs. The SCO had ODT
and counted getty's as users. You couldn't have a getty for uucp, one
for the console, and one on the net, even if there was no one logged in.
They fixed almost that, except for a problem which counts the ppp
connection as a user, and will let you establish a ppp link, but not
login over a serial line. I can't fault the letter of the
implementation, but I can't justify $1500/system to have the unlimited
ODT, and if I wanted to run SLIP I could use a less expensive o/s which
has a nicer SLIP.

  Or I could find a way to solve the problem without violating the
letter of the license, which was even better.
-- 
bill davidsen, GE Corp. R&D Center; Box 8; Schenectady NY 12345
	A terible poker player can have a great hand,
	A obnoxious fool can have a good idea.
	Both are winners, regardless of who has them.
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sys5.r4,comp.unix.sys5.r3,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sysv386
From: aad@siemens.com (Anthony Datri)
Subject: Re: The Future of ESIX (was Re: PC-clone UNIX Software Buyer's Guide)
Organization: Siemens Corporate Research, Princeton (Plainsboro), NJ
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:14:25 GMT

>>Lets say the average system has 30 users. The full list of the OS is $1295.

Uh, 30 users?  Might not *1* be a more accurate figure?

-- 

======================================================================8--<
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1292 biz.sco.general:5513 comp.unix.sys5.r3:378 comp.unix.sysv386:17895
From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Date: 24 Jan 93 16:30:22 GMT
Organization: MCSNet, Chicago, IL

In article <1993Jan21.180850.16433@compu.com> fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) writes:
>larry@trauma.rn.com (Larry Snyder) writes:
>>karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) writes:
>>>SCO has a serious value problem.
>>I ditto this.
>>vendors (Dell and the new ESIX product comes to mind) - basically
>>at 1/3 the cost of SCO.  These SVR4 products are just as reliable
>
>I hate to keep bringing up reality here. Where do these numbers come from all 
>the time? Who makes them up?
>
>SCO UNIX costs $1295. Where do I buy the same thing for $431 retail? That is 
>1/3 the cost isn't it?

Ok Fred, what is IN that SCO Unix which you get for $1295?

Let's list the items; you check 'em off for SCO.  All of these are in DELL
and most other SVR4 releases:

Operating System + BNU + ksh (a necessity these days)
Development System (C compiler + libraries + other tools)
Online Manual Pages
DOS emulation (VPIX or Merge)
TCP/IP protocol suite and Ethernet drivers
NFS
X Windows Base package (display driver + core clients + desktop)
X Windows Development System
Multi-user upgrade (3+ users)

This is, for a workstation, a reasonable configuration if you leave off the
multi-user upgrade (which is primarily useful for servers).  What does that 
cost from SCO?  From DELL its $1595 direct.  ESIX, from what I understand, 
is actually a little cheaper.

>>packages side-by-side you would find that you still get more value
>>with Dell (for example) than SCO even if you spend the 4K retail
>>on SCO.
>
>Again, what are you buying that needs a $4000 expenditure and why? 
>Fred

See above.  What do you get for your $1295?

-=-
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Data Line: [+1 312 248-0900]
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sys5.r4,comp.unix.sys5.r3,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sysv386
From: larry@trauma.rn.com (Larry Snyder)
Subject: Re: The Future of ESIX (was Re: PC-clone UNIX Software Buyer's Guide)
Organization: Gator Communications - Feeds-R-Us 219-289-3745 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:06:16 GMT

fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) writes:

>This is where you seem to travel on different wavelength. There are no 
>other options. That is the full price. 

Sure, how about Delvelopment?  How about NFS/TCP?  How about X11R5?
How about users wanting to run DOS under Unix?

Many options -- unless your users want to do nothing but
'ls' all day :)

>value if I don't want or need it? I can't take it to the bank and cash it can 
>I?

There is no money involved.  My point is why spend 1295 on SCO for just
a OS when for the same amount you can get all the extras (mentioned above
plus more?)

>Again and again and again - who needs all that? If they do, let them buy it. 
>There must be a market there somewhere for such people. For the rest of the 
>folks the OS will do just fine, thank you.

Just because you have it doesn't mean you need to use it.  It's better
to have it and not use it then to go out and buy it later.  ALso, with
Dell you can choose to not install any package -- then if you need it -
just go back to the distribution tape.  

-- 
Larry Snyder                                    internet: larry@gator.use.com
keeper of the Gator                                   uucp: uunet!gator!larry
From: adams@pdv2.fmr.maschinenbau.th-darmstadt.de (Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
Subject: Re: No EISA support SVR4.2
Date: 28 Jan 93 01:28:30
Organization: TH-Darmstadt
	<2B6221EB.123E@telly.on.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pdv2.fmr.maschinenbau.th-darmstadt.de
In-reply-to: evan@telly.on.ca's message of Sun, 24 Jan 1993 04:58:18 GMT

In article <2B6221EB.123E@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes:

   Sez who?
>
>   According to every Univel compatability list I've seen (including ones
>   produced before its release), support for EISA host adapters is
>   explicitly provided for UNIX V4.2 --- *by the vendor of the host board*.

.....

>   This has worked for years with the makers of intelligent serial boards.
>   You don't buy anyone's UNIX expecting it to have built-in drivers for
>   Digiboards or Equinox. IMO, in the interest of keeping bloat to a
>   minimum, basic UNIX should come with a minimum of hardware drivers
>   and let the rest ship with the peripherals.

Well, hardly anyone wants to mount "/dev/swap" (or "/dev/drum for
SUNny boys) on a serial line, just disk controllers tend to be hit by
this.

Are your really sure, you are able to design a SCSI driver, doing
busmaster DMA, supporting scatter-gather, without knowing the kernel
to a certain degree?

Advanced implementations of a pager tend to page to the currently
active file system. How would you share access between file system and
pager to your SCSI-controller, as it will have to transmit request of
both concurrently, as scatter-gather will transfer a whole track both
into filesystem buffer, on order of filesystem, and user space, on
order of pager?

best, adams


Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 22:24:13 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to davidsen@crd.ge.com (bill davidsen):
>  Time to realize that there is room for both commercial and free
>software, and not try to use one solution to all problems.

But a source-available kernel isn't one solution; it's all the
solutions you and thousands of others can imagine and code.

My motto: If you don't have source code, it's not software.

>And I think you know that and are just agitating...

Reading my mind now?
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
From: evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch)
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Organization: Somewhere just far enough out of Toronto
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:28:40 GMT

In article <C1IBDx.L73@wimsey.bc.ca> sl@wimsey.bc.ca (Stuart Lynne) writes:

>[SCO] works with more peripherals than any other product. Either supported 
>directly by SCO or by the vendor with drivers for SCO (they do SCO first
>they maybe do SVR4, then again maybe not).

You haven't seen the R4.2 comptibility guide produced by Univel, then. It's
more than 60 pages, and also includes drivers both built into Univel and
supplied by peripheral vendors.

There has been a pretty big leap in IHV support between Release 4.0 and
4.2. This is the first release from USL that includes built-in support for
CD-ROMs, token ring and NE2000-compatible network cards (amongst other
things).

As from support for third parties, there is a gap but it is narrowing.
Softening the blow is the fact that in many instances, "SCO" drivers
work fine on R4 systems, especially for intelligent serial cards. How
many R4 drivers work under SCO?

The gap has existed to date because SCO has (correctly) been seen as the
industry leader in market share. If an IHV has limited resources in
driver development, of course they're going to do SCO drivers first, if
for no other reason than there are more SCO boxes out there based on
history. This is no statement on technical superiority, stability, or
anything else.

There are also a small (but growing) list of drivers written for R4 that
aren't available for SCO, mostly done on the net. SAS and XFree86 are
two examples. Thomas Roell, author of (possibly) the best X server
available on Intel UNIX, explicitly prohibits the use of his code on SCO.

>You also get a much larger support staff than any of the other vendors
>(check out PC Unix Buyers Guide).

This is a truly useless factoid. All it means is that SCO has to field
more support calls than anyone else. This can be interpreted as either a
bug or a feature, depending on perspective.

There are sometimes reasons to pick SCO over R4. The points mentioned
above aren't even minor factors anymore.

-- 
 Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
         evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan / (416) 452-0504
What's with all this multimedia stuff? Most vendors can't get *one* done right.
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:1277 biz.sco.general:5495 comp.unix.sys5.r3:366
From: fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:55:07 GMT
Organization: CompuData Inc.

larry@trauma.rn.com (Larry Snyder) writes:

>Buy SCO Unix unlimited users, add TCP/IP, NFS, Dos Merge, complete development,
>X11R5, text processing, network support tools.  Now what is the price?  Take
>that total and compare it against Dell's complete price which includes all of
>the above for $1295.

The point is that people buy what they need, not what they don't. Harry's 
Hardware doesn't even know what all that stuff is. He wants his POS terminals 
hooked up and functional so he can get a printout to see if he made any money 
this week.

So to say that I get green polka dots underneath the new Chevy, along with an
ejection seat for the case when a tank is about to run me over, does not do
much for my decision process to buy that Chevy.  I worry more about being able 
to find a place nearby to get the thing fixed and serviced if it breaks. I 
want standard parts I can easily replace if needed (software). But most of 
all, I want a nice reliable automobile that gets me to where I want to go.

Fred
-- 
W. Fred Rump 	office:	   fred@COMPU.COM     "A man's library is a sort of 
26 Warren St.   home: fr@icdi10.compu.com 	harem" - Emerson (1860) 
Beverly, NJ. 08010                          		 
609-386-6846    bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr
From: cambler@zeus.calpoly.edu (Christopher J. Ambler, Phish)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
Subject: 16550 support in SCO UNIX?
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:48:05 GMT
Organization: When Fashion Dictates, you're living in a Fashion State!

I have SCO UNIX 3.2.2 with TCP/IP 1.1.1b running SLIP over a 38.4kbps
ISDN circuit switch. When running telnets for NNTP or SMTP, or running
FTP I get TCP checksum errors. Slower interactive telnets and finger and
such have no problem. My guess is that the serial line is dropping
characters at 38.4 ... but I have a 16550AFN on that line, and I was
under the impression that that should solve it.

Question is, then, does there need to be software support for the 16550's
enhancements? Does just plugging in the chip into the serial card not
help?

Anyone? Anyone? Beuhler? :-)

Thanks in advance!

-- 
SO WE'RE SUPPOSED TO PLAY IN  | cambler@zeus.calpoly.edu | Author, FSUUCP 1.32  
CURITIBA IN 18 HOURS, BUT OUR | chris@toys.fubarsys.com  | Secretary, BBSC   
BUS IS BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY  >--------------------------^--------------------
THE LOCAL PROMOTERS. -- INSOC | Looking for "Land of the Lost" on video. Got?
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
From: David Mason <vid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: No EISA support SVR4.2
Organization: ZOOiD BBS
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 03:56:47 GMT

ed@maxed.amg.com (Ed Whittemore) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.144903.13264@zooid.guild.org> David Mason <vid@zooid.guild.org> writes:

<my comments about no EISA for svr4.2.1 yet, etc, deleted>

>
>Well, there are other problems, too. The technology is great, but then 
>so is the space shuttle's--but it's not reliable transportation. The
>256 color x servers are broken, it seems EISA SCSI will have to wait
>until USL releases 4.2.2 (maybe this QTR), sysadm won't enable
>network printing for non v4 systems ( you can do it by hand ), there
>are a couple of network problems. Unixware is in the same 4.2.1 boat.
>Locus Merge isn't ready for 4.2 either, and it's not clear when it will
>be.
>
>4.2.2 is supposed to have a fixed X servers, a new device driver
>interface to support EISA SCSI, dev. system fixes, etc.
>
>You do need to look at the supported hardware, but in this case that
>won't be enough. 
>
>Not ready for prime time, in many respects, not as a stable application
>platform anyway.
>
>Veritas--408-727-1222.
>
>PPc will be offering shortly, their HyperX 4.2 server product that 
>supports many SVGA and accelerated graphics cards such as ATI's Ultra
>series, new and old, the #9 GXe, etc., at a list of about $200. PPc is
>at 412 231 3000. There are also cards from Actix, CSS, Diamond, ELSA,
>Genoa, Mylex, Orchid, Pixelworks, STB, more.
>
>It ALWAYS happens that people want the latest and greatest and then get
>burned by the bugs and deficiencies. What's surprising is that
>people are suprprised by the problems.
>
>-- 
>Ed Whittemore   uunet!maxed!ed   ed@maxed.amg.com
>American Micro Group, Inc.   201-944-3293

Thanks for the phone numbers, they will be useful. Apparently Adaptec and USL
have EISA SCSI drivers, which may or may not work with Consensys v4.2

As for wanting the latest and greatest, sorry, that is not the case, it's just
a matter of trying to get a product while we have a chance to familiarize
ourselves with it before it becomes obsolete. SVR4.2 has many nice features and
seems nicer and many ways than SVR4, once the bugs are worked out (which they
will be since Novell, etc are getting in on this) it will be a great platform.

Otherwise, we would have gone with SCO... 

or we could go with Dell, and hope they don't abandon it in favour of SVR4.2,
SCO, or Solaris, or we go with X and hope they don't go with Y.. in the long
run (as much as that concept can exist in this industry) SVR4.2 seems the most
stable. 

We have no need of the enhanced graphics display drives, we don't need any at
all in fact.

So, I thank you for your phone numbers, but no thanks for the razz at the end.



-- 
vid@zooid.guild.org             -->> ZOOiD Public Access Usenet 416 322-7876
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,biz.sco.general,comp.unix.sys5.r3,comp.unix.sysv386
From: witr@rwwa.COM (Robert Withrow)
Subject: Re: PC Unix/Xenix vendors
Reply-To: witr@rwwa.com
Organization: R.W. Withrow Associates
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:02:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.163643.13042@sbcs.sunysb.edu>,
 shane@cs.sunysb.edu (Shane Bouslough) writes:
| fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
| 
| : Yeah, really huge cost.  Just get the Solaris sampler CD, which
| : includes a Solaris version (complete) of the GNU compiler.  Costs you
| : all of $0.
| 
| Please tell me where I can get a CDROM drive for $0 so I can put my
| Solaris sampler CD for $0 in it. Thanks.

I will, just as soon as you can tell me where to get a free computer
to put the free drive into.

And what about a free house with free electricity to put the free computer
into?

Cheesh.

There are enough free or nearly free CDROMS with stuff on them that
the cost of a drive pays for itself in reduced network costs in a 
very short time.

(Of course, I know that those of you in the .edu domain believe or
are taught to believe that everything is either free or should be free.
So I suggest you ask your professor for the drive.)

-- 
 Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 598 4480, Fax: +1 617 598 4430, Net: witr@rwwa.COM
 R.W. Withrow Associates, 21 Railroad Ave, Swampscott MA 01907-1821 USA
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit