From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 6 Oct 92 00:23:59 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct1.194157.59353@cc.usu.edu> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
>I will only respond to certain parts of this post and leave the rest
>for others.
>
>In article <1992Oct1.121630.13063@phillip.edu.au>, 
>lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:
>
>[...]
>>   Blacks: Viewing dark skin as a curse from God, Mormonism banned black men
>>   from the priesthood until a doctrinal reversal on this matter was announced
>>   in 1978.
>> 
>>      ** Here Mormons really show their colours!! :-). This (as with many 
>>      aspects of Smith's writings..which will be examined) is a reflection of
>>      the attitude of society towards blacks in the early-mid 1800's. There are
>>      many people today with that sort of attitude who would call themselves
>>      Christians. The KKK calls itself Christian. Slavery was condoned by an
>>      extremely flimsy and highly twisted interpretation of the Bible, as is
>>      calling dark skin a curse. This is another example of reversal of 
>>      major Mormon doctrines to suit the times.
>
>As a Mormon, I resent the association made above between
>Mormonism, the Ku Klux Klan, and slavery.   As it stands, the
>statement above implies that Mormonism is in the same league as
>other groups that institutionalized the physical persecution of
>others, as practices or has practices such persecution.

I am sure that you do resent it Jason!  Truth sometimes hurts.  You have
to look at the facts friend.

>>   Elohim: This is the name of God the Father, an individual distinct from 
>>   Jehovah, who is the son of Elohim.
>
>With regard to the Old testament, this is a controversial subject
>in Mormonism, and opinions are wide and varied among Mormons. 
>Therefore it is only safe to say that "Elohim and Jehovah
>*generally* refer to God, the Father, and the ante-mortal Christ,
>repsectively but not *exclusively*.

Can you quote ANY Mormon scholar that doesn't agree that Elohim=God and
Jehovah=Jesus?  This is basic LDS teaching.  I can't believe that you
make us discuss things like this that you should be agreeing to.  Every
educated Mormon I have ever run across confesses to this one.  Why don't
you?

>>   Hell: The wicked go to a hell of torment, but all are eventually resurrected
>>   and pass into the telestial kingdom. Only "sons of perdition" who have given
>>   themselves over to Satan remain there forever.
>> 
>>     ** Again, a non-Biblical/anti-Biblical doctrine. The story in Luke 16 of 
>>     Lazarus and the rich man tells us that there is no way a soul can cross
>>     between heaven and hades (v26). In Rev 20:14 "Then death and Hades were
>>     cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death". This doesn't look
>>     like heaven to me!!!
>
>This is mis-representing LDS teaching.

No this isn't!  Nice drawing Jason, but Scripture states that "NOW is the
say of salvation",  and "after death is judgement"  (HEB 9:27).

The Mormons believe that non-believers get a "second chance" in spirit
prison, but SCripture explicitally states that man is incarnate with a
need and desire for Jesus/God, so that he is "without excuse" at the time
of death.  (Romans 1).

>>   Jesus Christ: According to Mormonism Jesus Christ was one of the spirit sons
>>   of the God Elohim. Jesus was was Jehovah, the God of the old testament. God 
>>   the Father visited Mary and had marital relations with her so that Jesus
>>   could be born with a human body. 
>
>No, there is no explicit Mormon teaching that teaches this.
>The only thing that Mormons teach is that God, the Father is the
>father of Jesus Chirst, not the Holy Ghost.
>
>There is no LDS doctrine that explains in unambiguous terms what
>the *method* of conception was.

Jason, you mean to tell me you are defending the LDS church and you've
never read the Pearl Of Great Price?  I suggest you go back and read
"Moses"!  It's there!

>>   Salvation: Because of Christ's atonement everyone will partake of what 
>>   Mormons call unconditional or general salvation, ressurection from the dead.
>
>This seems a bit unclear.  Mormons believe that all mankind,
>anyone that has ever lived, will be resurrected regardless of
>what they do or didn't do in this life, or what they did or
>didn't believe in.

You just described what was said by the original poster.  Thanks!

>It is available to all.
>Those that don't receive what Mormons think are "necessary"
>ordinances, can receive them by proxy.  This includes baptism and
>the temple ceremonies.

Can you support this with the Book Of Mormon?  It is the "Fullness of the
Everlasting Gospel"!  It should have something about it!

>> Also, the origin of the Book of Mormon is very dubious. Smith received 
>> revelation from the angel Moroni - who is supposed to be the resurrected son
>> of an ancient prophet-historian called Mormon - as to the whereabouts of 
>> certain gold tablets writen by Mormon. Included were two stones set like 
>> glasses by which he translated the "reformed Egyptian" characters. After this
>> both the tablets and stones were taken away by Moroni. The Bible on the other
>> hand is supported by thousands of historical documents and was translated by
>> learned scholars. The BoM was "translated" by Smith using occult means, which 
>> the Bible comes down upon heavily. 
>
>Since when are the urim and thummin "occult means"

Peep Stones and hats certainly are!

>David Whitmer is the *only* person to ever state that Joseph
>Smith dictated the Book of Mormon, word for word to his scribes
>while looking into peep-stones placed in a hat and covering his
>face with the hat so that no light could enter.

His name is in the front of EVERY BoM as a witness!  Are you denying his
testimony?  He is YOUR CHURCHS'S WITNESS TO YOUR BOOK!

>David Whitmer was never a first-hand witness to the translation
>process of the Book of Mormon.  Joseph Smith was the only one,
>and the specific details he gave were that it was done by the
>power of God.

Then why was he a witness?  You admit that Joseph was truely the only
one!  Are you going to trust you eternity on ONE man who was involved in
occultic activity?

>His scribes report that he never asked for the last line to be
>read back to him during the translation.

Not according to David Witmer's testemony!  According to him, EVERY WORD
remained in the hat until it was written properly!  Who should be believe?
What you say the scribe said, or the guy who signed the BoM?

>Most LDS believe that, through the power of God, Joseph was able
>to read the writing on the plates and understand the ideas that
>were trying to be expressed.  He then used his *own* words to
>clothe those ideas in English.  Thus the translation is not
>absolutely word perfect, but the concepts presented are close to
>what the original authors intended.

This is a bold-face lie, and if I took this letter to your Bishop, you'd
be counciled and possibly ex-communicated for saying such!  LDSer's out
there,  here is the guy misrepresenting your church!

If necessary I can post a list of quotes stating that EVERY WORD was the
gift and power of God, not Joseph Smith's own ideas, he was only a farm
boy of less than three years of education.

>>   1Nephi 16:10,16
>>   And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and
>>   went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld
>>   upon the ground a round ball of curious workmanship; and it was
>>   of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one
>>   pointed the way wither we should go into the wilderness....And we
>>   did follow the direction of the ball.
>> 
>> It appears that a compass was found and indeed later the word
>> compass is used [11] in 1Nephi. Apparently this was supposed to
>> be found in 600 B.C. but  history tells us that the compass
>> wasn't used until 1100 A.D. by the Chinese. [12] and an
>> encyclopedia says that it first appeared in European Literature
>> about the 12th century A.D.[13]
>
>This is an example of Joseph Smith providing an english word to
>approximate the meaning of the idea.

This is an example of a lie used to support a lie!

>>   1Nephi 18:25
>>   And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we
>>   journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts of every kind, both the
>>   cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse...
>> 
>> This shows how the BoM makes historical errors. Horses were not
>> introduced to the western hemisphere until about 16th Century
>> A.D., this verse is supposed  to be referring to about 6 B.C.[14]
>> There is also some speculation as to why a castrated bull (ox)
>> would be roaming around!!
>
>And it also refers to the "goat" and the "wild goat".  What's the
>difference?  Again, maybe these were the closest approximations
>Joseoh Smith could come up with at the time he translated.
>
>What's the difference between an ox and a steer?
>How many people know the difference between a Bull, a sterr and
>an ox.

God knows, and he don't make these kinds of errors!

>> The book of Abraham was "translated" by Smith from some actual
>> papyrus containing Egyptian Hieroglyphics. 
>[...]
>
>> In 1967, the papyrus was found and was identified as the one 
>> Smith used by Mormon scholars[17].  Modern day scholars both
>> Mormon and non-Mormon have both come to the conclusion that the
>> text was from the 'Book of Breathings' and had absolutely no
>> resemblance to the book of Abraham. 
>
>True.  And mordern day scholars, both Mormon and non-Mormon have
>decided that the papyrus discovered in 1967 is not the same one
>Joseph Smith trnaslated, but rather just one part of the paryri
>that came into Joseph's hands.

Whether this is a lie or truth, I don't know, but we can review the
above to see the record.  However, you even admitted that part of it was
legit.  From that we can test Joseph's translating ability.  He got long
sentences and even proper nouns out of the Egyptian character
equivalent to the English word "the"!

>Mormons are not polytheistic.

Polytheism= the belief in the EXISTANCE of more than one god.

Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate
Gods.  That is more than one.  Discussion closed!

>If LDS teach that all matter is uncreate as you state above, then
>Jesus, and all the rest of us are all eternal.

Well, you are getting closer,  Jesus IS eternal.  Look at the title page
to the BoM!