From: strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl)
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 12:34:38 GMT

In <6145.2ad1dc34@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:

>In article <1992Oct03.233823.24925@NeoSoft.com>, peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>> In article <6111.2acc6999@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
>>> Note that Peter got the shortcuts wrong in the text above, so it wasn't right
>>> until I corrected it.
>> 
>> The point isn't what the particular shortcuts are, but that they're clearly
>> presented and easy to learn and allow access to ANY menu item, not just a
>> subset.

>Except that they don't work in all cases, so you can't use them.

True. If another window has the keyboard focus, they won't work.
This is just what I would expect in a system with more than a 
single window. 

But as long as the window which has the menu bar we are talking
about *has* the keyboard focus, you can use all available menu navigation
methods given by the standard menu keyboard interface. I.e. you can
use the cursor keys in order to scroll through the menu entries, 
you can type underlined letters to select a menu entry, or you can
use an accelerator, if one is defined. 

That Peter couldn't remember the shortcuts doesn't surprise me -
I'm unable to remember them, as well. I use them all the time while 
working with Windows applications, but if you would ask me how
to open a file in Write, I would have a hard time to come up with
the correct answer Alt d f. Fortunately, my hands and fingers
know it better.

>>> So, if you get used to using the Alt- shortcuts (as painful as they are),
>> 
>> But they're NOT painful, that's the point. 

>I find them painful. Well, cumbersome more than painful.

>> They're learned automatically as you use the system... 

>NOT!

Why not? I've learned them automatically, while I used the system, and
I know a lot of people who learned them while they used the system.

Perhaps there *are* people unable to memorize short (i.e. one
or two) key sequences they use all the time, but I doubt  
very much that they are in a majority.

>> and the shortcuts you learn are the ones you actually *use*. 

>And as soon as you try to use one of those ALT- shortcuts in a dialog,
>WHAMMO -- all that learning goes out the window.

Wrong, plain and simply. Dialog boxes have a very nice and standard
keyboard interface, which includes the Alt+ letter shortcuts, of
course.

Where do you get your information about Windows?

>> It's a beautiful design, which helps speed learning *and* simultaneously 
>> makes the system totally usable without a mouse!

>Using the computer without a pointing device is a benefit? Oog. I disagree.

Please read what he writes. To be able to operate a computer without
a pointing device is a benefit. To be forced to use a pointing device
in order to use the computer isn't. 

>>> Yup. He (and you) got the shortcuts wrong. That proves the inconsistancy of
>>> Windows.
>> 
>> Actually, if it proves anything, it proves I didn't have to memorise them:
>> I just learned them naturally.

>No, if you don't know what they are, then you can't recall them. You are
>back to the old remember/recall cycle that we've shown is faster with the
>mouse.

>Second, it proves you never learned them at all, since you couldn't remember
>them. If you can remember them in a discussion, you can't remember them
>on the keyboard.

Do you really think that it is as simple as that? There is no reason
to remember two letter shortcuts much longer than you actually use
them. Do you actually *read* the menu bars of your applications, each
time you select a menu entry? Probably not. You read it once, or 
twice (or perhaps more often, if the menu is crowded), and remember
it by its various attributs (mostly: position) and use it blindly, later.

If you are unsure, you start to read them, again. But are you able
to remember the position of a submenu entry (i.e. third entry, fourth
choice) in a discussion? Of course not, and, more important, it doesn't
prove anything whether you do it or not. 

Menu and dialog navigation, as implemented by Windows, works in a 
very similar way. When you start, you actually read whats written
in the menus or on the buttons. But if you have selected an entry
for a few times by typing the underscored letters you are looking
at, it becomes a mechanical action, which doesn't require you
to read the menu or the dialog box, anymore. You recognize the
menu or the dialog box as a whole, and react with the one or
two letter sequence you have assoziated with the one or two
word (i.e. command) sequence which describes what you intend
to do.

>> After four years not using a Mac I could still quote ALT-XCV, even if I
>> couldn't remember ALT-period (or whatever it is) to abort a print job.
>> Because I had to sit down and *learn* them.

>Except the Mac doesn't have an ALT key. It appears your learning is
>defective.

You mean, his whole argument breaks because the Alt key is called
Command key (or apple key? I, too, don't recall the name), on
the Macintosh? 

>>> The problem, of course, is the neverending confusion of which button to press,
>> 
>> This is only a problem on brain-damaged X-windows systems where every
>> application has its own GUI design. Really. On the Amiga or in OpenLook
>> I can just use "SELECT" and "MENU".

>This is also the problem with OS/2 PM and Windows. There's no consistancy
>in the UI design. (Gee, we've come full circle)

Well, indeed. The Macintosh UI is different from PM and Windows, and
more consistent, often by omission. This doesn't always make it 
better, imho.

Wolfgang Strobl
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy