From: glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer )
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Anarchism and happiness
Date: 19 Nov 1992 22:06:50 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

Since Carolyn has given me carte blanche to rip into her.... ;)
 
cburke@nexus.yorku.ca (Carolyn Burke) writes:
>Death is inevitable, but happiness is not.  It is within the context of
>life that violence and coercion (or their absence) has any meaning, as
>they reduce happiness (rather a lot).  Within life, one may sometimes be
>subject to coercion or violence.  It is only with these two conditions
>that I would consider responding to coercion with coercion.  And that
>response would be moderated by its potential effectiveness in creating
>freedom.
 
>And still you say that I am acting to make might right.
Yep.   You are speaking thier language.  Your bottom line to
the thug is, it doesn't matter that thier violence and coercion
is wrong, what matters is you got the power to make them stop.
You thus become extremely effective in fulfilling your ends, namely
freeing yourself from violence and coercion, by using it on someone
else.  Rather than absorbing our societal disease, you simply
deflect it.   There are two ways of dealing with a thug, the
first is beating them at their own game, and the second is not
to play their game.  You play their game.  In my book you are one
of them.   The only way that you differ from other thugs is that
you have different ends.  There are all kinds of thugs with all
kinds of ends.  But where I come from, if it is violent like a
thug, and it coerces like a thug, it is a thug.   The way to
reduce pain is not to reflect it, but to absorb it.
 
>Being alive does not have to be the highest value one protects..
>Rather, without being alive, one cannot protect any other values
>that one deems important.. such as freedom, or happiness.
No no no.  By becoming a thug (USING violence and coercion) you
have already become a traitor to freedom and happiness.  You
protect your values by living up to them,  not by selling them
out so that you can go on living.  Freedom as it relates to you
doesn't die when you die.  It dies when you sell out.
 
>If I only engage in 'might' to convince (nice euphemism, eh!)
>others to leave me alone, then I am not actively supporting
>'might'.  I would be using it optionally to remove the coercive
>leaning of others who believe in using might for other types of
>reasons.
>I am suggesting that the REASONS behind a belief / action are more
>important than the belief in a lot of cases.
Funny, I was just mentioning that this is where we probably differ
in E-Mail.  The question is, of course, do the Ends justify the
Means?   Carolyn would say, you betcha!  I would say, no way!
 
It's funny how inhuman I have made myself to be, and yet the
reasons for my belief that the ends never justify the means
are extremely human.
 
I have seen all the news clips, all the war flicks, and in them,
I see the faces of the women and the children.  The victims of
war.  And when I see the pain in their faces, I am filled with
such a tremendous pain, that I vow that I will do all in my
power to minimize MY OWN contribution to the causes of their
pain.  Certainly in some wars, the ends must have justified
the means.  Take world war II for example.  I do not consider
myself responsible for the actions of others.  I do consider
myself HIGHLY responsible for my own actions.  Wherein lies
the seeds of violence?  In property.  For it is over property
that nations fight wars.  Thus I try to limit my possessions
to the bare minimum.  That is the supply side cause of war.
There is also the demand side cause of war, sheer human need.
Thus I have dedicated my life to the development of new
technology that will help meet human need.  I am hoping to
help lay the groundwork for the field that seeks to reverse
engineer the brain.   The potential of such knowledge is
limitless.  I know that the danger of such knowledge is
also limitless.  But I believe that fear of knowledge is not
the way to go.  And I have faith in humanity.
 
Don't worry Doug, I really do like Carolyn.  I am impressed
with her straightforwardness, her openness, and her intelligence.
 
And no I don't think I am any better than anyone else.  I believe
the target I aim for is better than almost anyone elses target,
but in bottom line results I am surpassed by many.  But, NEVER
will I allow myself to use another human being toward achieving
some goal that I think is more important than that person, because
NO GOAL that I could ever come up with is more important than
a human being.  Look in the eyes of a victim and you will know
what I am talking about.  If you can't see it there, I will
never be able to convince you.
 
Glenn                                 glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu