From: jive@spanky.ssc.gov (Jim Ivey)
Subject: _Long_ response to post...
Organization: SSC Laboratory, Dallas, TX
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:29:54 GMT


In article <8ehAUsS00VpNNO9FAg@andrew.cmu.edu> Kevin Michael Bernatz
<kb32+@andrew.cmu.edu> preaches:

   God, these discussions get old...  People, please try to refrain from
making such general statements.  I know I'm as guilty as the next guy, but
they're just plain stupid.  Saying that 'Dogfighting is useless' and
'Dogfighting ability means squat!' is just as stupid as anything the
lieutenants from iastate barf out onto the net. (which is, in general,
pretty stupid:):)

     For those who don't know me or Kevin or both, Kevin is one of the
better players...  I'm just a silly ogger.  By trashing his article, I'm
not saying anything against his playing ability.  Just his retarded
response to this newbie's post:):)  Feel free to respond to / argue with my
post, but if you're going to flame, at least use some reason / logic.
Otherwise, call me out and we'll have an ogg-fest.

    And so, it begins...

>   Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 14-Sep-92 beginner UN-luck Jason
>   D Bowles@IASTATE.E (803)
>   > I'm getting higher and
>   > higher kills/game ratios every time I uplink. 

     Good for you, Jason...  just don't focus on getting those stats.
Otherwise you're ignoring other, more important aspects of the game.  The
combat skills associated with these stats, though, come in handy...  Hence
the gist of my response...

>   Ok everybody, repeat after me...
> 	   "Dogfighting is useless... dogfighting is useless....dogfighting
> is useless" 

     I'd rather not...  How do you defend space/planets?  How do you
protect yourself from oggs?  How do you sneak into planets under cover?
These skills you pick up from practicing, and dogfighting covers all of
these skills at a certain level.

>   As any good player knows, dogfighting ability means squat!  All

     Ah... the mystical 'good player'.  I love it when people make
statements like this, in order to develop a base for their argument.
Thanks for speaking out for all the 'good players' out there, Kevin.

> you need to be able to do is suicide.. if you can do that, then you can
> be a good player.  Dogfighting skill used to be something that everyone
> thought was mondo, until that great guro of netrek, terence "God" chang
> taught us CMU *veterns* about ogging.  To be a good, respected player
> (IMHO) this is what you need to know:

     Thanks for sticking the IMHO in here, Kevin.  It saves the article.
This is half of my bitch/flame.  Saying that _all_ good players think
something is pretty silly.  Put this note at the top of your article next
time, instead of after the 'good player' comments.  It's your opinion, not
mine (yeah, I consider myself a good, though not great player), and to add
to it, this time I think you're wrong.  If all 'good players' agree with
you, then the lack of interesting games lately begins to make sense.

> 	   1)  How to observe the "flow" of the game on the galactic map
> without being a free kill on the tactical.  This includes the following:

     Hmm... 'without being a free kill on the tactical'.  Sounds like
having enough skill at fighting to stay alive without putting much
conscious thought into it.  I guess dogfighting skills would be 'useless'
for that, though...  maybe that's what borgs are for.:):)

[ A whole bunch of good ideas follow that are also in the FAQ or the ftp
files.  They're in Kevin's article to add weight from 'obvious facts' to
his argument.  They do nothing to invalidate the fact that dogfighting
skills _are_ useful, and I'm not in the mood to pick at each one of them.]

>   a)  Spotting when people pick up armies (either from the net-blink
>   that occurs when they pick up, or by observing how many armies are on a
>   planet prior to and after the suspected carrier leaves.
>   b)  Learning to guess which planet a carrier will go for and
>   proceeding post-haste to that planet
>   c) Learning to observe group enemy movements and determining if they
>   are ogg waves/escort waves or just coincidence.
>   2)  Learning to type and respond to messages without needing to fly
>   away from the front.  
>   3)  Learning that speed kills, and always go max warp when not fighting
>   someone.
>   4)  Learning to think ahead of time, and always know what you are going
>   to do when you come back in at your home planet.  This can include the
>   following:
>   a)  Continue to ogg the person you missed
>   b)  Kill a bomber that you noticed going to a core world
>   c)  Grab a base to store armies
>   d)  scout bomb if you noticed no-one is doing it
>   e) Ogg another suspected carrier 
>   (Note: There are not in any particular order)
>   5)  Learn to spot people with kills and know who carries with 1 kill,
>   and who likes to wait until they have 2.  This also includes the
>   following of their movements on the galactic.

     The next paragraph leads off into a diatribe about newbie/clue/veteran
B.S.  Since it loosely relates to the recent threads in r.g.n., I assume
it's here to add more weight to his argument.

>   These are 5 major attributes that I think seperate a "clued" person 
>   from a newbie.  A newbie concentrates on the Tactical display, and hense
>   fails to observe the entire "play" being performed about him.  A
>   "vetern" (to use the term loosely) spends more time watching the game
>   evolve on the galactic map, and only concentrates on the tactical when
>   he/she has arrived at the location that they desired.  As the samurai
>   maxim says, "A person who has mastered an art, reveals it in his every
>   action".  

     Unfortunately, it does little / nothing to support his argument, since
it doesn't talk about dogfighting at all, with the exception of the last
line which I'll take out of context to his advantage.  If players focus
solely on dogfighting, and nothing else, they will reach a level where not
only will they be of only limited use to the team, but also their actions
will be predictable to anyone who knows him/her.  A good point, Kevin, but
it doesn't follow that dogfighting skills are useless.  Just that someone
who does nothing but dogfight will be of limited value.

     My argument...

     Dogfighting skills _are_ useful.  Let's take a look at Lance's list of
pointers, and see how they can be applied outside of dogfighting.

I.    Tractoring/pressoring

     Push/pulling people away from planets and carriers.  Using them as a 
defense against oggers when you're carrying and don't have enough
protection to just cloak.  And, of course, my favorite... ogging:)

II.   Changing speeds

     Add to this the note that 'Changing speeds is helpful for making tight
turns and avoidance routes', this comes in handy for oggs, scout bombing /
taking, avoid oggs, etc.

III.  Detting

     Invaluable for escorting and, of course, ogging:)

IV.   Shields

     Perhaps the least useful of the bunch for applications outside of
dogfighting (except ogging:)

V.    Torps
VI.   Phasers

     Weapons skills are useful for all sorts of things.  Escorting, planet
defense, finding cloakers, self-defense, planet-taking (herding people away
from the target with bursts of torps)... just a quick list.  Other uses I'm
sure...  ogging, for example:)

VII.  Cloaking

     Kinda in there with shields.  It's good to know the in's and out's of
timing with cloaking, though.  Dogfighting practice will get you up to
speed on this.  (Useful for og... well, you get the idea:)

VIII. Plasma

     Bleh...  no comment.  (*SMACK!*)

IX.   Knowledge is half the battle :)
X.    Interesting Tidbits

     Yeah yeah... more good points that are in the FAQ / etc.


     In general, almost all of the skills developed from dogfighting are
useful.  Your comment about 'All you need to be able to do is suicide' is
inane, if you think it can be done without dogfighting skills.  Try ogging
someone with defenders that doesn't want to be ogged.  Sheesh.  I can't
believe you actually said this, Kevin.  What time of night was it?

>   -KB
>    Rear Admiral Akira
>    Commodore Sun Tzu
>    Flt. Captain Mo
>    Flt. Captain Redjac
>    Flt. Captain Ame Damnee
>    Flt. Captain Fidei Defensor
>    Flt. Captain Kill_The_Scums
>    Flt. Captain Pallida Mors
>    Captain Arbiter Bellum
>    Commander Crippler
>    Lt. Commander Plasma, Ogg of

     Geeze...

     Jim Ivey
     Ensign FillInTheBlank
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek