HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu (Nancy Proctor)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Fundies: expensive
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:02:46 GMT
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville

In article <6eoBqB1w165w@fennec.sccsi.com>
popec@fennec.sccsi.com (William C. Barwell) writes:
>  What is needed is amovement to make Higher Bible Criticism a household
>word.  For those who do not know what that is ecaxtly, it simply means
>reading the bible and noticing it's conradictions and errors and then
>using one's brains to think about what these mean.
(Stuff omited)
>  Much of the Judeo-Christian heritage we hears o much about is not
>morality at all.  It is merely the biases of ancient bad tempered
>billygoat herders.  And I am tired personally of hearing the silly biases
>of 2000 year old goatherders being palmed off as the word of God.
(More stuff omited)

>  More sophisticated Christianity I can live with, tho' don't believe.
>But the rest is dangerous.  And wrong.  And unacceptable.
>For those who haven't put much though to this sort of thing a fairly good
>book to start with would be Thomas paine's 'The Age Of Reason'.  It is
>usually readily available and also has the advantage of being written by
>one of our greatest founding fathers.  It is a good start.
>  What to call this 'movement'?  For lack of a better name, 'The New
>Enlightenment'.
>PAt Buchanan has put it right.  We are living in an age of cultural
>warfare.  I think it's time to fight back by cutting them off at tyhe
>roots.
>

It is so nice to run into someone who spouts off stuff that I agree with.
Congratulations for thinking, and reading,  and then quite naturally getting
madder then hell about the whole mess.

Another good source is _Adam,_Eve,_and_the_Serpent_ and also _The_Gnostic_
Gospels_, both by Elaine Pagels.  She's a well respected historian and
teaches up north somewhere (Princeton, I think).  She goes all into the
various myths that were used by the Hebrews and early Xians, and also explores
the social conditions and priorities that made certain stories more acceptable
than others.

Enlightened Christians aren't really difficult to deal with, but the ones who
really believe every word of the Bible are downright impossible.

Education is the key.  The knowledge is out there--filling up shelf after
shelf in most academic libraries (and even some public libraries).  But how
do you get folks, (who are happy in their tight little boxes where all the
the answers have already been provided, written down, and approved by god)
to question? to read? and most of all, to have an open mind?

I'm not certain that it can be done, but it's worth a try.

Blessings and may the eyes of our enemies be opened,

Nancy
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Hazel Eyes
Date: 4 Sep 92 11:35:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>BTW: I always look forward to posts with your name on them, and I too have
>hazel eyes... :) 
>Blessed Be
> 
>--------------------
>Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
>(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
>(CIS) 76460,1443 
>(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra

Hey Donal, can we start a "Hazel Eyes" group.  Seems when I
look in the mirror I see these "Hazel Eyes" staring back at
me.  

Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: Masons/Knights Templar
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 23:51:03 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

>>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>>>>: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun) writes:
: 
: 
: in masonry homosexuals are not openly admitted.<<<<
:                                ^^^^^^ 
>>: I have never heard that, and I have definitely heard of queer Masons from a
: straight Mason.  There may well be Masonic lodges which would have a problem
: with queer-folk, but it is not Masonic policy.  (See Shava's post for the
: *only* absolute requirements for Masonry.)
: 
:               Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
:                                Br'anArthur
: 
: Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)<<

Jumping into conclusions again B.A.?

Eshin-Fun
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Church of All Worlds?
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:50:35 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society

In article <8Xk8PB2w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes:
>mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
>
>>  They are one of the oldest Neo-Pagan groups in existance in North
>> America. Their leader, Otter, is the one credited with coming up and
>> defining the term "Neo-Pagan" for what he and others were doing. They've
>                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>It would be fun to watch Bonewitz reading this......

 It might be but Otter is credited with the term in the mid to late 60s.
Isaac isn't.

Wassail,
Grendel

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+
From: 70253.2621@CompuServe.COM (Chris & Susan Colvin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: your survey garbage
Date: 29 Aug 92 18:39:44 GMT

donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  writes:

>SUBJECT: your survey garbage


>Just wanted to let you know that we in alt.pagan are onto you and know how
>to make problems for you. We have already notified compuserve management of
>your recent abuses of cross-posting to Internet

Great!  :-)

>and if you try it again, we will flood your mailbox with letters like 
>this one. Multiple copies of letters like this one!


First of all Donald   GROW UP!  GET A LIFE!

Donald, for your edification, and all other readers of alt.pagan (for the
second (2nd) time and please excuse my yelling) THIS WAS POSTED TO ALT.
SATANISM, NOT ALT.PAGAN!

Donald, before you go on your campain to load up my E-mail, most of it
gets rejected because I can tell which are blithering idiots like yourself
and which are legitimate communications.  Now, by the looks of your ID,
you must be the sysop of the bbs you connected with so, if you decide
to mount this campain, I'll contact the provider you are connected through
and seek monitary damages.  Five other people tried your tactics from
university computers.  Their accounts have been terminated.

To other readers of alt.pagan, the survey was not directly posted by
me to this group.  I suggest you check the message ID with the one on
alt.satanism.  All posts to groups other than alt.satanism are forgeries,
or there was a glitch in the berkeley DAEMON at the time of the postings.
I've contacted the administrator to see if he could look into it. He didn't
seem too concerned.

As I stated before in SURVEY 2:

If you got inconvenienced by my post, please accept my apology.
If you got offended by my post, please accept my apology.
If you are losing sleep over my post (like Donald) GO SEEK PROFESSIONAL
HELP.

If you want to load my mailbox and try to run up an E-Mail bill, go ahead
and waste your time, I won't open your mail, I'll capture your ID, write
your system administrator (if that's you, the System Owner by snail mail),
and attempt to have your account terminated.  NIC has all the information
I need.

Now, if you want to flame me, and want me to read your flames, post them
to alt.pagan.  I've got access on 5 separate work accounts to USENET, I'll
read them.   The reason I use Compuserve and the Berkeley DAEMON is so I
dont use company resources for what is clearly a personal activity.  That's
ethical.  Wanna complain to Compuserve? Go ahead. 

Flames please ?-)

or better yet:

               ********DON'T CONTINUE THIS THREAD*********


Distribution:
  Donnie >INTERNET:donal@brewich.hou.tx.us
  >internet:alt-pagan@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
  >internet:fair@apple.com
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Canada (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 18:26:03 EDT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:

> I have to admit to occasionally sharing everyone's depression/anxiety/
> foreboding about the course the country is taking. I have my own ideas
> about what's responsible for the pass we've come to - TV and it's
> moronic popular culture is real high on the list. It's really a perfect
> medium for mind control and when I read that young kids watch 6-7 hours
> of that c**p *every day*, I shudder.

well, that's why katy watches *0* hours of tv per day.  stupid stuff, mostly,
and reinforces all the cultural values i dislike.  granted fundamentalists keep
their kids from watching tv for similar reasons, but fundamentalists also
breathe for similar reasons as i do, so i try not to let it worry me too much.
and katy has an excellent vocabulary and loves books, so i must be doing
SOMETHING right...

> Keep hope alive!

doing my best...

                                           -ailsa

p.s. in all this talkj abotu leaving, i never made clear: i am not too terribly
worried about the US turning into a totalitarian dictatorship (any more than it
is already) with closed borders.  all i'm worried about is a stiffening of the
already present tendency to try to remove custody from lesbian mothers. there
is at least one lesbian couple and son who are officially refugees from thsi
country because of this.  i think they're in denmark currently.  i can get to
toronto on one AFDC check...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
 I wish her insight to battle love's blindness            ________
 Strength from the milk of human kindness         Silence \      / Action
 A safe place for all the pieces that scattered      =     \    /    =
 Learn to pretend there's more than love           Death    \  /    Life
                                  that matters               \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: HEAVEN
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 18:55:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.201537.532@csus.edu>, 
altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>>I guess I'm just in a talkative mood today, but I thought I'd mention that
>>there is a FAIR amount of evidence that many "intelligent" creatures who
>>don't happen to fit the Homo Sapiens mold have been shown to not only 
>>possess high-level reasoning ability, but imagination as well. Just because
>>this intelligence is not like human intelligence OR we just don't understand
>>it (the usual case) don't assume we are "so different".

In article <krikket.6795@meltdown.chi.il.us> 
krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>Okay, I'll bite.  Which "'intelligent' creatures" are you refering to, and can
>you quote any sources?  (What can I say, I don't want to take the word of a
>netter on this one, but if I can be pointed in the right direction through
>mentioned sources...)

The most obvious is that cute little pseudo-vegetarian chimp you've seen 
in a dress and riding a bike in a circle at the circus. Read Jane Goodall.
Chimps are basically humans that decided to minimize their impact on the
rest of the earth instead of trying to conquer it. For now.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: republican delema
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:53:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.142806.29825@bcrka451.bnr.ca> bbooth@bnr.ca (Bradley Booth) writes:
>
>In article <1992Aug28.192330.24250@news.iastate.edu>, txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling) writes:
>> I think that the best solution to the problems with the dominit partys and
>> groups like that belonging to Pat Robensen is to form a Pagen party. fight

[deleted] 

>Is it just me, or have others noticed that a lot of Americans vote based on
>which party represents their personal religious values?  

I think it's due to the fact that, for a country that talks so goddamned
much about separation of church and state, we haven't done a very good
job.  You get scared about people's religious principles popping up in
elections because you know that, given an opportunity, they WILL shove
them down your throat.  In self-defense, I must consider religion in any
election -- or rather, a lack of it.  

>Or is it just that
>this election seems to be a battle over religion and religious values?  I
>guess it's easy to blame bad economic times on people's moral values than
>on the government.  If so, then a pagan candidate would be a good idea. :)

If they stood a snowball's chance in hell of winning, maybe.

Blessings,
Janis 



Organization: Senior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Date: Fri,  4 Sep 1992 12:43:39 -0400 
From: Kathryn Tiffany Digiacinto <kd21+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Other Requirements of Masonry?

I was wondering if one could become a mason without having had a family
member that was a mason.  I assume one could become one based upon the
list already given by a mason.
I ask in part because when I was around 13, a friend of mine took me to
a few Rainbow girls meetings.  I didn't become one, and back then hadn't
a clue what it meant.  I just thought it was terribly boring, and that
none of the girls at the meetings were of any interest.  Which is one of
my main problems with this seperation business, because whether I was
living 200 years ago or today, I would still want to be part of the core
group, and also feel that such memberships should be based upon
intelligence and intellect rather than something as trivial as sex or
race.  
Oh well, I agree with the statement that the masons have fallen, and so
it is not all the disappointing that I cannot become a mason.  It is
rather annoying that in the history books I have seen for most young
people, it is never mentioned that many of the forefather's were masons.
 Our country likes to ignore anything in its history which may seem
secretive/taboo or what I would term significant and interesting.
-Kathryn T. DiGiacinto
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: knox@spruce.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Knox)
Subject: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?
Reply-To: knox@spruce.gsfc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA/GSFC
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:11:53 GMT

In article 16809@csus.edu, altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>  
  ... lots of stuff about the Templars deleted

>For a bit of fun, Lawrence Durrell includes the hunt for the Templar treasure
>as well as a fairly accurate history in two of his fiction series, both
>in the Alexandria Quartet, and especially his Avignon Quincunx (four books
>around a central fifth text). Some people might not like his style -- he is
>an inveterate word-crafter and very "thick", but among _my_ favorites.
>
   For more (obscure) fun with the Templars, there's always Umberto 
Eco's _Focault's Pendulum_.  But occultists beware, Eco is rather 
sarcastic and nastly about various occult movements.  Depending on 
your loyalties and sense of humor you may not find it very funny.  
Much of the book centers around a vanity press that starts a series 
of books by rich crackpot occultists--referred to behind their backs
as "diabolicals."  Only thing is, the way the world seems to work 
is not independent of what gets published about it.  A good unabridged
dictionary and encyclopedia or a "cheat sheet" for the book (available
on the net) is also important to get through the first 75 pages.

>Blessings, 
>
>Murray
>
>-- 
>Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
>Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
>CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
>altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."

BB,
Nathair bheag


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: briansp@css.itd.umich.edu (Brian Spolarich)
Subject: Ann Arbor Area (Michigan) Pagans
Organization: University of Michigan ITD Consulting and Support Services
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:33:10 GMT


     I am looking to correspond with Pagans in the Detroit - Ann Arbor
Area.  Please respond to briansp@umich.edu.
     -blessed be,
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: How 'bout some *new* pagan music?
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:44:15 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

In article <22910@sybase.sybase.com> elton@sybase.com (Elton Wildermuth) writes:
>
>			The Green Returns
		[...]
>	where the Calgary prophet lies,
>

Edmonton?  No, actually, it's "where the Calvary prophet lies"...

B*B
	- Leigh Ann


Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
CoG #151E
"Take no scorn to wear the Horn; it was the Crest when you were born!"
From: SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: hello
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 17:12:09 EDT
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

Harvard Square is not that far from Waltham, and in or near Harvard Square
are two stores you ought to know about: Seven Stars, on John F Kennedy Ave,
and Arsenic and Old Lace, about 10 minutes walk out Massachusetts Ave (in
the direction away from Boston).  Either of these will have the most recent
issue of _Harvest_ (just out), with really good networking and directory
information.  This is Harvest's last issue, but it will be succeeded by
_Tides_, which may be just as useful.  Seven Stars is a Occult & Esoteric
bookstore with a very good Wiccan section and another on Magic(k).  Arse-
nic and Old Lace is basically a herb and supply shop with a strong Wiccan
orientation and pretty good bulletin boards.  You might get to know the
proprietor and her staff, who can give you further advice.

Robert Mathiesen, Brown University, SL500000@BROWNVM
From: elton@sybase.com (Elton Wildermuth)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Lyric content
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:31:39 GMT
Organization: Elf Hill Music & Mayhem Unltd.

Another pile of words from the lyric file ...

This one comes with an explanation.  "The Lovers Enchained" is an alternate
name for "The Devil" in tarot; see the Rider-Waite deck for a very good
graphic explanation of why this should be.  We had a look at the trilogy
represented on that card and said, y'know, this looks like the Alchemical
Marriage (the combination of sulphur and salt through mercury to make the
Philosopher's Stone, the #1 mystery of alchemy).  So, fine, sez we, let's
examine this further:  how can we take the imagery from the Devil trump
and make it fit the transformation?  Our answer:  a song in 3 parts,
representing the descent, ascent, and transformation of the Alchemical
Marriage, structured around Waite's drawing for The Devil.  The structure
also fits that of a healing through sympathetic magic.

For the hearing impaired:  this is an allegory!  It reads like a ritual
because it IS a ritual; and it reads like a Christian myth because it IS
a Christian myth, every bit as much as it is pagan.  Aon daonach amhain.

As before, lyrics copyright (c) 1991, Leigh Ann Hussey and Elton
Wildermuth.

		The Lovers Enchained

	Give me your hands -- try these for size.
	You seem surprised you wear them well.
	I understand; I deal in chains,
	mortal remains, blessings from hell.
	  I gave you flesh to wear;
	  I gave you chains to bear,
	  beautiful bonds and baleful,
	  frozen in flesh and feeling,
	  reeling in fascination.
	  Look at me:  glorious yet, though I fell.

	Give me your chains -- they are my own.
	Bound to your throne, I wear your mark.
	Earth my domain, given no choice,
	I will rejoice before the dark.
	  There will be hell to pay;
	  dance with me anyway,
	  daring your death, disdainful
	  carnival clay concealing
	  madness and desperation.
	  Look at me:  word become flesh by your spark.

	Give me your flesh -- cast it aside.
	Tortured and tried, you will not play.
	Elements mesh bathed in the flame,
	sorrow and shame, dross burned away.
	  Cast loose the silver cord;
	  rise to a rich reward,
	  touching the truth, triumphant --
	  radiant rage revealing
	  rapture and exultation.
	  Look at me:  flesh fallen free of the clay.

End of interview.
			-- Leigh Ann & Elton
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Abandoning the Sinking Ship
Date: 3 Sep 92 12:24:57 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <Btxpzq.1sw@csn.org>, rks@teal.csn.org (Reykja K. Sigurdsson)
writes:

>     I have been reading with interest the thread about leaving the 
>country. Since this subject is one rather dear to me (I am planning to 
>immigrate to Iceland), I thought I would try to articulate my reasons 
>for the decision. 
>
>     It seems to me that living in a certain place, associating with 
>certain groups, etc., is implied consent to the prevailing social 
>ethic of that group/society. 

  <Some damn good reason deleted to save bandwidth>

Okay, I'm impressed...  I'll have to do some homework on the subject and learn
something about the country.  (Admittantly, right now I don't even know what
the primary language is there!)

Being a local U.S. idiot, what kind of skills are looked for when people are
looking for a country to immigrate to?  (Well, I don't have to many skilld
right now, but I can gain the edcuation and follow the rest of you out at a
later point.  I just don't want to be forced to give up my lifestyle... 
Already I'm running into some friction against it.  Hell, even at the last
couple Dead shows in the Chicago area the police showed up in FORCE.  And this
is for a group that has a reputation for being peaceful!  Let alone that I'm a
Pagan who is for Gay-Rights, and is public about my opnions...)

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Pagan Population
Date: 25 Aug 92 11:32:04 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <uTsVPB2w165w@fennec.sccsi.com>, popec@fennec.sccsi.com (William C.
Barwell) writes:
>Stupid Question #321.  I have been sort of keeping up with Pagan 
>Community doings for some time now.  What I have absolutely no feel for 
>is, how many people out in the U.S.A. consider themselves to be 
>Pagans, pagans, NeoPagans, or Wiccans, ect.  I have seen a recent figure 
>in Green Egg stating that they had a list of 500 Neopagan magazines, and 
>newsletters.  This would imply to me an large and active Community.  
>Anybody seen any good estimations?  Anyone know how many people listed 
>Pagan or Wicca as their religions in the recent census?  Unrequited 
>curiosity.  What a horrible feeling!

Unfortunately there is no good way of getting a census of all p/Pagans, since
as a whole we are very disorganized [hiarchally] to start with...  Last I
heard, there were more Pagans than Mormons and Quakers in the U.S.A.  How true
that is, I dunno, nor if it is still accurate...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan