From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: conversion to judaism / Center for Pol
Date: 24 Jan 1993 04:28:18 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article <1jkl20INNqks@manuel.anu.edu.au> I wrote:
>In article 14967@cirrus.com, chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:
>>In article <1483500321@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) >writes:
 
>>>I thought this forum is concerned with the Middle East, not with
>>>sterile discussions about Judaism.
 
>>>The debate about Judaism/Racism has little to do with finesses.
 
>>....
 
>>>I urge every person to acquaint itself with these tangible
>>>and terrible aspects of Jewish/Zionist racism. 
 
>>What kind of statement is this?  You and Wayne and MEQ consistantly
>>label Jews and Zionists as racists, as you have done above. 
 
>What kind of vicious lie is this?  No posting in the MEQ series,
>nor any posting of its editor (me) has ever labelled Jews and
>Zionists (in general) as racists.  Let's see if you are adult
>enough to prove your claim or apologise.

In article AA10298@igc.apc.org, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> () writes:
>A certain Brendan 

I deny having ever been certain :-)

>                  asks me to apologise for defining Zionism as
>a form of racism and highlight specific aspects of Judaism as racism.

You need a reading lesson.  If you look at the ">"s carefully you 
will see that my comments were directed at Chris Metcalfe not you.
[Chris: Where is that apology you owe me?]  However, since you
dragged me into it...

>Far from using these terms as smears, there is ample evidence
>to prove these assertions. Even former chief of Israeli
>Intelligence Harkabi brings many such examples. Israeli official
>discrimination against non-Jews who have been born in the country, 
>particularly those non-Jews who happened to flee the hostilities
>in 1948 (which many Jews also did) and cannot return, is I think
>compelling enough to provde racial discrimination, at least as this
>term is defined in international law.

I agree with these examples.  There is a long and continuing history 
of racial discrimination by Israel against Arabs.  However, you have
not provided any evidence that Zionism is racist per se, only that
some people have done racist things in the name of Zionism.

>It is true that many Israelis don't give a damn for international law,
>U.N. resolutions and agreements signed by Israel. This is however not
>my position. I maintain that international law and Conventions signed by
>the majority of UN members, reflect a good consensus and should be used
>as a yardstick to assess a regime. The fact that many states violate
>these conventions does not exonerate Israel.

I agree with that too, but I thought you were going to show that 
Zionism is racism.  Personally I see Zionism as an example of
Nationalism, and not really an exceptional one.  All forms of
nationalism exist to somehow advantage one group of people relative
to others and there is no clear boundary between "reasonable" expression 
of that aspiration and "unreasonable" acts of racism.  I lean towards
a dark view of nationalism in general and it is only because of my
special interest in the Middle East that I mention Zionism more often.

>zzz.

Brendan.


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26185 talk.politics.soviet:10686 soc.history:10929