HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Lurkers
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:48:01 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.213425.2394@nwnexus.WA.COM> elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:
:   One of the people I was with was a rather famous flamewarrior who
:has asked me not to name him.  But it was rather interesting as a woman
:approached us and said "I heard you two talking about the 'net.  Do you
:post a lot?"  He introduced himself and she backed away, saying only
:"Oh."  Then I introduced myself and she said "You're ELF?  You write
:the best stories!"  *Blush, shucks, t'weren't nothin.*

Elf!!!  How *could* you go out on a date with Cl*yt*n Cl*m*r!!!  honestly,
I thought you had more taste.  (Say, is it true he's got a tiny dick?)

G
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: miket@hermes.tcs.com (Michael Turner nmscore Assoc.)
Subject: Re: Purity
Organization: Teknekron Communications Inc.
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 23:23:42 GMT

In article <1i2qagINN5ht@rave.larc.nasa.gov> kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey) writes:
>In article <1993Jan1.014238.17022@netcom.com>, boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser)
>>
>>A few days ago, driving roy to the campus (Hi roy!  I want another hug!)
>>we got into a conversation about bi and how it is resented by 'purists'.
>>Lesbians who think that a woman who sleeps with a man is sleeping with
>>the 'enemy'.  At the time I got tiffed at being considered an enemy,
>>but I have been thinking about this alot the past few days.
>
>I want a T-shirt that reads "THERE IS NO ENEMY."
>--scott

I found one of those once, but it had a bull's eye on the back.
---
Michael Turner
miket@tcs.com
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:34:26 GMT

In article <BzMLsL.2tMy@austin.ibm.com> alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss) writes:
>
>Fundamentally, its about getting people to buy-in.  Paying
>attention is only one part of it - once you GET their attention,
>you need to close the sell.  If this sounds a little too business-like
>for a social engineering discussion, I'm sorry.  I see little
>difference between selling policy and belief systems and selling
>pancakes.

Then consider terror selling, if you don't do this/buy this, bad
stuff will happen.  If you don't do this/buy this, nobody will talk
to you.

Perhaps you don't have a product that this will work for, but
its perfectly valid and effective marketing.  


The assumption that you can only change behavior by selling them
sweetly doesn't hold up.  See actup and its success with drug
companies.
>That's funny.  How can the beer people sell so much partially
>fermented grain beverages that tastes like sour hops?  They
>associate it with CUTE BABES and HUNKY DUDES having FAR more
>fun than YOU'VE ever had in your life. :-)  :-)
>If that's not sugar-coating .....

Have you ever seen them market lifecall?  If you buy this you will
not have a heartattack at home and die alone wishing you could
reach the phone.

>Correct, not NECESSARILY true, just a much higher probability.
>And hey, what's WRONG with making an essentially righteous
>set of principles more attractive, so long as the principles themselves
>remain intact?  We're NOT talking about changing them - only
>subtly influencing people's PERCEPTION of them.

No, what you're doing is dictating the behavior of feminists.

>
>Never said that.  I suggested that its ONE way of selling the concepts.
>Not the only way.  ACT UP! has another way of selling their
>concepts, and it *may* be effective - its too early to tell.  But
>note that, until now, ACT UP! has NOT been effective in garnering
>much research money for AIDS.  Are there parallels?  Maybe.

You don't follow actup closely.  They've been quite effective in
changing a number of government policies at the FDA and forcing
companies to lower drug prices and a number of other victories.
I'm sure somebody here besides me can quote the list.

you may have suggested it was one way, but it sure came across
sounding like THE way.
>
>
>"What is the quickest and most effective way to change the thought
>patterns of this society?"

By killing everyone.  In the meantime, I try just loudly being.

Ry Schwark
From: vashti@concave.cs.wits.ac.za (Vashti Galpin)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Seperatists etc.
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:55:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: concave.vashti.724949718
Organization: None worth mentioning

In <1gths2INN9gf@agate.berkeley.edu> mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:
>...  To answer your question, though, I'm *altogether* happy
>for white South Africans who favour separate existance to get the hell
>off the backs of the Blacks.  If they feel strongly enough to lock
>themselves in the Transvaal, abandon all business dealings with blacks,
>give up all claim to rule over them, and refuse to let them do all the
>backbreaking work down the mines any more, that's fine.  

Arghhhhhhhhh! Please, not the Transvaal --- that's where I live and so
do lots of other people who want to make this country a success. The
white separatists can have a nice piece of desert somewhere without
running water or alternatively they can live at the bottom of the
mines, for all I care.
								____
								\bi/
Vashti                                                           \/
From: angi@castle.ed.ac.uk (Angi Lamb)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Understanding
Date: 25 Dec 92 04:08:11 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums) writes:

|	As near as I can tell, defining feminism is like defining paganism,
|or a witch.  You ask N different 'members' of the group and you will
|get O (where O >= N) different answers.

I kind of like this one:

"I myself have never known what feminism is.  I only know that people
call me a feminist whenever i express sentiments that differentiate me
from a doormat." - Rebecca West, The Clarion 1913. 

Angi
From: diana@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Diana Bental)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Questionnaire for HIV-negative people
Keywords: HIV negative AIDS safer sex psychology gay bi
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:13:21 GMT
Reply-To: diana@aiai.UUCP (Diana Bental)
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In <BzyK3w.HAC@demon.co.uk> Graham Toal says:

>It sure looked to me like he was talking about the stress and guilt of
>being found HIV- when your friends are HIV+.  While I understand the
>psychology of this (like major accident/war survivors who need
>psychiatric help to readjust, asking themselves why their friends and
>'better people than me' suffered while they survived), I don't think
>it applies to HIV+ when 99.9999% of the world's population are
>'survivors'.

Well, let's just take a closer look at your analogy.

99.9999% of the world's population didn't die in a major air crash,
either.  The people who need psychiatric help are the ones who were
*in* the air crash but survived it.  You have assumed that people who
test HIV- are analogous to people who weren't even in the plane.  But
your assumption is wrong.  Everyone who has decided to take the HIV
test (or who knows that s/he is seriously at risk of HIV) is in that
crashed plane: testing negative is analogous to surviving the crash
without physical injury.

The analogy also works in a different way. Someone who lost many of
their friends, family, heroes and lovers in an air crash might also
feel devastating loss *and* survivor guilt even if s/he wasn't
actually on the plane. Anyone who lives among people many of whom are
HIV+ may feel the same, regardless of whether s/he has ever been
personally at risk.

One reason for setting up such support groups in the US is (I guess)
because of the scope of the gay community *as* a community there,
especially in places like San Francisco, the extent to which people
live within that community and the devastating effects of AIDS on that
community and the people in it, including the survivors.  Some people
who are HIV- have seen AIDS cut a swathe through their whole social
and emotional lives.

The Names quilt has a giant section devoted just to members of a gay
men's singing/acting group.  Now just imagine how it might feel to be
a member of that group who was HIV-.  Lucky, yes, but what else?
Perhaps not so different from going on a plane trip with the group, a
trip that ended in a crash that *you* survived but many of your
closest friends didn't.

So when someone is not only a survivor of the crash, but is also
friend, colleague, relative, lover or nurse to many people who are
dying in it, I see every reason why s/he might need *exactly* that
kind of help.

Diana

------------------------------------------------------------------
Diana Bental,                      JANET: diana@uk.ac.ed.aisb
Dept of Artificial Intelligence,   INTERNET:  diana@aisb.ed.ac.uk
University of Edinburgh,           UUCP:  ...!ukc!aisb.ed.ac.uk!diana
80 South Bridge, Edinburgh EH1 1HN, UK

That's straight as in sword, Maeve
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk (Ian Watters)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant abou
Reply-To: iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:49:00 +0000

Kay:
> Paaaa.... I bet you say "The data is corrupt", too. :)

While I'd agree "media" should remain plural, "data" is now a collective noun
for all but a few.

To keep on topic, what's the collective noun for bisexuals?  A diversity?!?

//\/\/  iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk

>>>MATRIX version  1.21e
From: robear@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jay Michael)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Het males & bi-femmes
Date: 28 Dec 92 10:11:17 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Re:  Jeffery Boser's comments - 
	Sorry about messing up the Heinlein reference, it has been several
years since reading it and I think I was going more on a vague memory of 
the impression I got from reading it.  The Leiber stuff was a lot better, 
being that I had read it within the last six months and had the book in
front of me during the posting :).

	I can see how the bi-femme interest could stem from a 'blurring'
of the woman as a sexual source, multiple women giving the impression
of 'more' woman, thus being 'better' in a quantitative sense.  Although this
would seem to depend most on polysexual women, not necessarily bi-fems.

	So here's where I wax theoretical . . .

	An ideal het relationship might look like the following (or any
monogamous rel, if you want to disregard the gender references):

	   ____________
	F <____________> M

	Wherein there exists a loop of emotional energy, which is supplied
by the M & F and grows to a level that is unreachable by just considering
the M and F alone.  But are there other options for the het male?  That,
supposing that there is no single female capable of being the other half of
such a loop, we expand, two possibilities:

	   ____________     ____________
	F <____________> M <____________> F          (polyamorous male)

	I'm not going to say much about this because 1) It's not really bi-
related, and 2) It would seem the females are getting the shaft.

	F_____________F           It is this situation that mandates the 
	  \         /             bisexuality of the F's, in order to complete
	    \     /               the emotional loop and raise all three
	      \ /                 to a sum greater than the individual totals.
	       M                  Perhaps this symbol has something to do with
	                          the standard 'bi-triangle'?

	This again deals a great deal with polyamory, but forms an equality
by the triangular relationship between the three.  A Triad, a trio, the 
three muskateers, etc., which is acceptible to the het male perspective.

	Do het fems think of an inverted triangle?  Methinks most likely,
not, and I wonder if it is because of the nature of feminity, cultural
upbringing residual effects, other?

	Also, as I type this, I am getting the impression that the complexities
involved with a single fem would be two-fold in such a Trio arrangement,
that it wouldn't be a step in convenience, but difficulty.  I also see
a clash between the attraction of novelty and the disability to enjoy it
without the emotional backing, something that I suspect I would have trouble
with.

	So perhaps it is just as well that for most het males these 
possibilities lie purely within the realms of fantasy.

Robear, H.M.

Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss)
Subject: Re: Rouilard, Sharon Stone (Re: Liberty (was something relevant about ))
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:35:28 GMT
Organization: (speaking only for myself from Austin, Texas)

In article <1992Dec21.175753.4945@spdcc.com> joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis) writes:

>>Speaking of Sharon Stone, does anyone have any comments on herm?
>>Other than the notion that, "gee, I'd like to have her" (which
>>is so patently obvious as to be beyond discussion :-)
>
>The French  magazine "genereu-X" published her telephone number
>in the last issue I bought. Haven't called her yet.

Not nice to annoy the actors without an invite :-)

>I did finally get a hold of Richard Rouilard, ex- Editor-in-Chief of
>the Advocate. He is now working at the Los Angeles Times Magazine. I
>was speaking to him of other matters, but I did ask about leaving the
>Advocate, which he said was because of personal differences with the
>publishers ("Liberation Publication"), and that it was 'time to move
>up'. I didn't have the heart to ask him how moving from the Herald
>Tribune magazine section to Editor-in-Chief of the Advocate to the LA
>Times Magazine was 'moving up'...
>-- 
>US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.

I used to live in L.A.  The L.A. Weekly would have been moving up.
The Times is copping out  :-)   Well, at least heshe can do some
good there.  I wonder what happens when he runs in Bob Ballinger
(political ed. && libertarian sympathizer, I think)?
 

-- 
   _  Alan R. Weiss   IBM AWS Austin-AIX Kernel   11501 Burnet Rd, Bld 905
 _| ~-. alan%auntbea.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com | Austin, TX 78758
 \, *_} auntbea.austin.ibm.com!alan@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com | 512-838-8281
   \(   DISCLAIMER:  Working at, not speaking for, IBM  | alan@auntbea
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:39:04 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.185313.19414@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:


Quoting Ms. Manners:

>  But she has never yet heard of anyone who was under rude attack
>  killing the instinct for self-defense and saying: "Wait a
>  minute--I believe you have a point there. It's a good thing you
>  yelled and threw paint at me because it made me realize that
>  you are right and I was wrong. I appreciate your calling this
>  to my attention."

Well then, Ms. Manners fails to understand how the threat of being
beaten to a pulp can persuade someone not to call someone a 'faggot'
anymore.  It may not change their minds, but it will probably change
their behavior.  

The assumption that we have to get people to agree with us to get
them to change their behavior is wrong.  I've seen it here in the
workplace.  People are told not to tell sexist jokes, and I know
several people who do not understand why and disagree, but because
they'll catch heat if they do, they don't.  The people these tactics
don't work on should have enough sense themselves to figure out
why they shouldn't.  

Ry
ry@usl.com
From: sara@festival.ed.ac.uk (Swamp Thing)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Lurkers
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:34:35 GMT

mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:

>But since you asked (in an earlier post!  Thank any nearby Deity I'm no
>longer The Most Proficient Poster hereabouts - I was beginning to feel
                 ^^^^^^^^^^
>that everyone would be sick of the sight of my name), yep, I still get
>lurker-mail.  Last must have been a day or two back.  And I have never

Ahem, should that not be "prolific", Mike?  I'm sure you wouldn't blow
your own trumpet in that way.

It's a while since I got any lurker mail, but then I don't post enough
to get noticed these days (no bad thing I sometimes think, altho I don't
recall I ever got any really bad mail).  Then, it's a while since I got
any mail from *you*, Mike, altho I sent you some the other day... <hint>

Sara
Xref: sparky soc.bi:17105 soc.motss:53341
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:21:28 EST
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
 <BzKsHp.2sH@unix.amherst.edu> <BzMADt.1n7u@austin.ibm.com>
 <1992Dec21.175438.20068@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>

In article <1992Dec21.175438.20068@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
(ryerson.schwark) says:
>
>In article <BzMADt.1n7u@austin.ibm.com> alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R.
>Weiss) writes:
>>
>>And you appear naive to assume that an unattractive, coerced
>>strategy of straightening out the English language will EVER
>>succeed.  Besides, AGAIN you misrepresented my position - I was
>>using "hip" as a suggestion - it really doesn't MATTER how
>>gender-neutral language is made pallatable.  I could care less
>>about the means, but care a great deal about the goal.  You
>>may choose to read every third word in this, too - that is
>>your right - but it is the truth.
>
>Really? Do you think that people stopped using the word 'nigger' because
>they were carefully marketed to?  I don't think so.
>
>Ry
>ry@usl.com

People have stopped using the word 'nigger'?  Stopped printing it,
mostly, and not in prime time, but ....

I suspect the thing that's going to get the gender neutral pronouns
in place for part of the population is that all the serious scholarly
english style guides are now gender neutral or getting there.  This
will get all the primary school teachers, who will get the kids who
end up literate.  (The kids who don't end up literate have a much
larger problem than their language use!)

Just think - the grade 8 grammar teacher is *really* on your side. :]

Graydon
Xref: sparky soc.bi:17110 soc.motss:53353
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: 21 Dec 92 22:47:16 GMT
Organization: (getting there)

alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss) demonstrates most
clearly that he is incapable of any but the most simplistic levels
of thought.

He cannot imagine that I might do anything that is not my job, or
that participants in a movement might happen to undertake a job
that isn't a necessary one, or that there can be a movement that
encompasses a wide range of views.

We had one bozo here who said-- and I quote:
   >>>I can't *see* the point of feminism if it isn't to clue in the type
   >>>of person I used to be, and then to continue educating the type of
   >>>person I've become.

Jess said it many articles ago:  Feminism is not about men, it's
about women.  Smart men, who understand why there is feminism and
agree with its principles, find ways of educating themselves. 
I'm not holding my breath on this one.


-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.
From: chris@unicorn.resun.com (Chris Von Hendy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: YES!  It works!!!
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 09:04:19 PST(-800)
Organization: The White Bull
Reply-To: chris@unicorn.resun.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v3


In article <0C1A3726A02003D4@TUDOBM.TUDELFT.NL> (soc.bi), C.G.C.vanDijk@IO.TUDelft.NL writes:
> 
> Hi everybody,
> 
> After one-and-a-half years of holding my breath: I am here, and with
> this post I just stopped being a muffin!
> 
> For any welcoming hug (shy smile, quickly evolving into shameless begging)

A muffin!  Begging to be hugged no less. HUG, HUG, and once more for
good measure, HUG. 

> please hug Kay too, who found this way of posting for me.  I have really

No argument from me on sending Kay hugs as well, but I'm known as an
indescriminante hugger. ;-)

> Unless you think the volume of soc.bi was getting too large already, in
> which case you should spank Kay, I'm afraid.

Hm, now this is tempting.  Unfortunatly, to spank Kay, I would have to
think the volume of soc.bi was too large.  Sigh, guess I'll just have
to come up with some other excuse to spank him. 
> 
> PS: With regard to recent postings on net.personality: I'm mid twenties,
> bitter funloving cynic idealist, 6'2", blue eyes, and at the moment,
> I wear my hair like Jesus wore it (Halleluja I adore it).

Drool.  OK so I'm a sucker for a man with hair like Jesus.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Von Hendy            "If we shadows have offended,
Escondido, California       Think but this, and all is mended,
ncr-sd!blkhole!chris  or    That you have but slumbered here,
chris@unicorn.resun.com     While these visions did appear." Puck
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Liberty
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 02:07:03 +0000

: I also understand that this *solution* is temporal. When the threat
: goes away, the behavior returns and probably gets additional spin because
: now there is some new motivation based on revenge. This kind of 

I'm sorry, I don't have anything valuable to contribute to this debate; but
may I ask you *please* to look up temporal and temporary in a dictionary
and use the right one in future.  It *really* grates on my nerves, like
fingers screeching down a blackboard.  Thanks.

G
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: safarj@aix.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 09:20:06 GMT

tweaver@nyx.cs.du.edu (T.C.Weaver) writes:


>Tanaqui (who knows Jonah just went to bed |-)

<Eeeeht!> Wrong!  I just made you think I went to bed so I could play
Net-Police over in my little corner.. and look at what I found...

As for your variables, I say we just make a few of those fixed range and
give the rest some local assumptions... then we can pose some engineering
solutions... Care to help? ;)

-Points, Tired, silly, grumpy, frumpy dragon.


-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
 If the President won't do it to his wife, he'll do it to his Country. -Unknown
________________________________________________________________________________
Jonah E. Safar             R.P.I., Troy, NY              EMail to:safarj@rpi.edu