HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ac463@yfn.ysu.edu (Rich Yauman)
Subject: Re: Eddings vs. Tolkien
Reply-To: ac463@yfn.ysu.edu (Rich Yauman)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 07:23:26 GMT


In a previous article, umcho000@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Connie Cho) says:

>In article <1992Jul21.161429.202061@uctvax.uct.ac.za> vhspet01@uctvax.uct.ac.za (Peter van Heusden) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul20.173508.202050@uctvax.uct.ac.za>, glngar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>>> IN MY OPINION,EDDINGS IS THE MASTER OF FANTASY(EVEN BETTER THAN TOLKIEN-A SOUTH
>>> AFRICAN BY BIRTH I SHOULD TELL YOU.)
>>
>>Heresy! How can you say this! I do not have the time to discuss this in full,
>>but to even compare Eddings and Tolkien on the same scale is ludicrous. Eddings
Now I will add my humble opinion ;) to this chain.  Personally I think
that the Belgariad and the Mallorion rank way above Tolkien in quality
and pure enjoyability.  I don't mean to belittle Tolkien, because if it
wasn't for him there probably wouldn't even be a Belgariad.  Tolkien was
the first author that I know of that took fantasy as something more than
pulp novels to be churned out for a quick profit.  On the other hand, I 
really hope that David Eddings isn't abanoning these characters that he
created, or thier world.  There are plenty of stories left to be told,
before Belgarion was born, and about now that the prophecies are complete.

-- 
 Rich Yauman ac463@yfn.ysu.edu  /  Only AMIGA USERS make it possible  /
------------------------------ /              ^^^^^                  /
If at first you don't succeed /_____________________________________/
Force it. If it breaks, it needed replaced anyway. -a Murphy's Law /
Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
From: wljohnso@nyx.cs.du.edu (William "Wes" Johnson)
Subject: Errors In Eddings' Works
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 06:48:47 GMT


Well after reading the various complaints about the gramatical errors in
Eddings' works. I agree they are not a complete sin, but still annoying,
especially to us journalism students. :)

But the technical errors as stated are not his fault, its his editors and
the publishers editor's faults for not catching the errors.  While I
believe that a good writer tries to limit the errors he/she/it makes while
writing, nobody is perfect.  Thats why bigshot/published writers have
editors...

-------------------------------------------------
William "Wes" "Arrrr" "Man Thats a Loud Shirt"
"Gener Fox" "Mr. Kamikazi" "Mr DNA" "Boojie Boy" 
"Golden Earring" "Sentri Bastion" Johnson
-------------------------------------------------
De-evolution is a real thing - DEVO

Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
From: cantor@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (scott eric cantor)
Subject: Tolkien, Eddings, Donaldson
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:50:44 GMT

	I haven't posted in a while either, but I couldn't resist getting in my
two cents on this one.

	Tolkien was my first exposure to fantasy, (big surprise), and I was
impressed until I read just about anybody else I've ever read.  Yes his world
was big and detailed, but I'd settle for interesting any day.  Maybe it is
heresy, but I'm no literary expert, and I honestly couldn't care less what
is "supposed" to be deep and meaningful and what is supposed to be shallow
trash.

	I much prefer Eddings (my favorite), as well as Donaldson (whose
Covenant books strike me as much more impressive than Tolkien) or Kurtz or
even a few others.

	 _______________________________________________________
	|							|
	|	Shine on.........				|
	|			Scott <Crazy Diamond> Cantor	|
	|							|
	|	[<<<<<< cantor@cis.ohio-state.edu >>>>>>]	|
	|_______________________________________________________|

Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
From: cantor@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (scott eric cantor)
Subject: No point in flaming...
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:30:52 GMT



	Actually I don't see much point in flames over that kind of criticism
at all.  It's all opinion, as someone said, and nobody's mind is going to be
changed.  I feel compelled to defend my favorite author, however, and even
though some of those points are valid, to call Eddings the worst shows a total
lack of experience in reading the last decade's fantasy.  Which I note was
admitted freely.

	I think it's unfortunate that yet another genre is being pulverized
with overanalysis that is lock, stock, and barrel the essence of literature.
That's speaking as a layman (thank god) who has never and will never try to
read anything into what he reads, listens to, or watches other than what I
believe the author/creator intended:  a good time, and a few interesting
ideas about life.  Some, like the Covenant books, raise more ideas than others,
but it's not that significant.  If reading a book is really going to change
the way you think, than you impress too easily.

	Whatever happened to the good old days when all fantasy was trash.
Damn that Tolkien.

	 _______________________________________________________
	|							|
	|	Shine on.........				|
	|			Scott <Crazy Diamond> Cantor	|
	|							|
	|	[<<<<<< cantor@cis.ohio-state.edu >>>>>>]	|
	|_______________________________________________________|
From: podesta@qut.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
Subject: Tolkien vs. Eddings (rankings)
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:11:54 EST
Organization: Queensland University of Technology

Here's my 1 or 2 bits to the Tolkein Vs Eddings arguments.

First my qualifications...um, none.

I only read fantasy novels coz I'm not an avid reader and it takes a good
novel to get me to read it.

I rank the fantasy authors as:

    1. Tolkien

    Lord of the Rings is such a gripping read. I couldn't put the book down
    until I had finished all 1700 pages. (unfortunately this was during high
    school exams!).

    2. Terry Brooks

    Brilliant stuff - Magician trilogy and its surrounding novels, and
    even "Magic Kingdom for sale/sold" trilogy was excellent reading.

    3. David Eddings

    The Belgariad had me gripped right through the first 5 books, but it
    was a struggle to finish the mallorean 5 books because they were not
    different enough...just another chase around the world. I think it was
    a bad idea to use the "repeating events" theme that keeps cropping up.

    4. Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman

    Rose of the Prophet and the Darksword trilogies were brilliant. I really
    enjoyed them and I think rank only slightly below Belgariad if not on the
    same level.


James.

p.s. Terry Pratchet is brilliant too but he writes a different sort of 
fantasy novel so I haven't attempted to rank him here.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
From: apj@cs.sun.ac.za (Andries Dippenaar)
Subject: Re: Eddings vs. Tolkien
Summary: Up with Tolkien
Organization: University of Stellenbosch
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:20:11 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.161429.202061@uctvax.uct.ac.za> vhspet01@uctvax.uct.ac.za (Peter van Heusden) writes:

>In article <1992Jul20.173508.202050@uctvax.uct.ac.za>, glngar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>> IN MY OPINION,EDDINGS IS THE MASTER OF FANTASY(EVEN BETTER THAN TOLKIEN-A SOUTH
>> AFRICAN BY BIRTH I SHOULD TELL YOU.)

>Heresy! How can you say this! I do not have the time to discuss this in full,
>but to even compare Eddings and Tolkien on the same scale is ludicrous. Eddings
>is good, if a bit stilted, light fantasy, whereas Tolkien's is a full
>subcreation. (By the way, Tolkien's South African connections are minimal to
>say the least. His writings show no hint of influence)

I believe strongly that Eddings and Tolkien shouldn't be compared.  Perhaps 
the fact that Tolkien spent years `building' his world and only really wrote 
the books when his world had stabilised, make them much more `muture' 
creations.  This may also account for the fact that very few (if any) 
contradictions exist about MiddleEarth.  Eddings was partly dabbling in a 
new genre (if you can believe the inside covers of books), yet has the 
ability to tell stories and weave characters.  I can imagine he would be 
wonderful telling campfire stories, but that does not necessarily a good 
story make.  (BTW:  It is rumoured that Hobbiton was modelled on/inspired by 
a small `dorpie' (village) in the Free State;  I think he left RSA around 
his very early teens).

>As for the characters: Well, obviously many of Tolkien's characters are not 
as
>human as Eddings', since they aren't human. OK. I hate Elves too, and 
>believe that Tolkien made a stylistic and thematic error in presenting them
>as he did, but overall, I, and I believe most of the fantasy reading 
community,
>would give the mastership awards to Tolkien, and applaud Eddings as the 
>writer of a interesting little comic ditty.

I would suggest that a lot of Tolkien's mastery came from the fact that he 
was a mature writer (not wanting to suggest that Eddings is not, but at 
least about that specific genre) and it shows in his works.  Eddings has but 
only started, perhaps with too big a bang, but that may be because of his 
publishers wanting to cash in as quickly as possible (13 books in ~8 years).

Andries

PS: Please note that these are but my humble opinions, since I am by no 
means a student in the art of the written word.
***********************************************************************
*       /|~~\ * APJ Dippenaar        * "If you wanna make the world a *
*     /__|__/ * apj@sunvax.sun.ac.za *  better place, take a look at  *
*   /    |    * Univ of Stellenbosch *  yourself and make a change."  *
* /   \__|    * South Africa         *             -- Michael Jackson *
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
From: apj@cs.sun.ac.za (Andries Dippenaar)
Subject: Re: While we are on the subject of Eddings peeves...
Organization: University of Stellenbosch
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:33:47 GMT

In article <24366@castle.ed.ac.uk> crs@castle.ed.ac.uk (C R Smart) writes:
>tyger@netcom.com (Kitty in the Middle) writes:
>>How about that cover art?

>When talking about artwork, you will have to specifiy which publisher,
>format and sometimes even which edition.  The Corgi paperbacks in
>Britain had some very nice artwork while the hardbacks (I can't
>remember the publisher) were much poorer (IMHO.)

That was one of the reasons I bought my first Eddings -- the cover art (I 
love beautiful covers, so sue me!).  The Corgi hardcover and paperback 
editions feature art by Geoff Taylor (if I remember correctly) and is truly 
worthy of the content.  He did the artwork for all three series:  Belgariad, 
Mallorean and Ellenium, though the Ellenium's is quite different from the 
previous ones.  The softer, out-of-focus style on the Ellenium doesn't 
appeal to me that much.  I have actually seen a poster book featuring 
Taylor's artwork and including all the Eddings covers.

I saw another edition (by Ballantine, I think) which contained covers that 
would look more at home on children bedtime storybooks.  The artist actually 
draws the characters close up, which tends to spoil my own images of them.

Andries
***********************************************************************
*       /|~~\ * APJ Dippenaar        * "If you wanna make the world a *
*     /__|__/ * apj@sunvax.sun.ac.za *  better place, take a look at  *
*   /    |    * Univ of Stellenbosch *  yourself and make a change."  *
* /   \__|    * South Africa         *             -- Michael Jackson *
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
From: bpostow@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow)
Subject: Re: Eddings vs. Tolkien
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
	<1992Jul21.174549.19057@honte.uleth.ca>
	<1992Jul21.230848.5455@newsroom.utas.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 07:10:30 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Tolkien was the first fantasy I read. I loved it, I was was the book
that started me actually reading for enjoyment. However, now that I
have continued on in the fantasy genre, I have found many, better
books/authors let me be analytical and describe waht I see has the
plusses and minuses of Tolkien:
PLUS
His world is REALLY well thought out, it has an entire history, a
REALLY LONG history, languages, etc;
for its time it was really inventive, it started all of the cliches
	[sheesh, couldn't Shakespear have written ANYTHING original??
B-]

MINUSES
most of it is rather flat, I have only read LOTR and the Hobbit [more
on simmerillian later], there is little or no character development,
the plot just goes on, and that is about it.

It is a pretty much single plot line story, there are no subplots. sub
plots are difficult with only about 6 female charachters in the entire
LOTR B-]

he has a single culture. there are no cultural differences between
geographic areas.

Litterarilly, I didn't find the writing especially good, but then
again i read it a while ago an dmight be wrong abou that.


So, I don't think that Eddings is the master of Fantasy, but perhaps
there isn't one! Many authors excel in different areas, Eddings is( I
believe) one of the best in terms of character development, you don't
see characters as developed as silk often...

of course, this i all IMHO

--
Brian Postow :: The Pasta Knight - that noodle head in shiny armour
reachable at:
bpostow@occs.oberlin.edu
sbp2530@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu		this space left unintentionally blank.
sbp2530@oberlin.bitnet.edu

Yes, I KNOW that 6*9 is 42 in base 13.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
From: umcho000@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Connie Cho)
Subject: Re: Eddings vs. Tolkien
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:57:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.161429.202061@uctvax.uct.ac.za> vhspet01@uctvax.uct.ac.za (Peter van Heusden) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.173508.202050@uctvax.uct.ac.za>, glngar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>> IN MY OPINION,EDDINGS IS THE MASTER OF FANTASY(EVEN BETTER THAN TOLKIEN-A SOUTH
>> AFRICAN BY BIRTH I SHOULD TELL YOU.)
>
>Heresy! How can you say this! I do not have the time to discuss this in full,
>but to even compare Eddings and Tolkien on the same scale is ludicrous. Eddings
>is good, if a bit stilted, light fantasy, whereas Tolkien's is a full
>subcreation. (By the way, Tolkien's South African connections are minimal to
>say the least. His writings show no hint of influence)
>
>As for the characters: Well, obviously many of Tolkien's characters are not as
>human as Eddings', since they aren't human. OK. I hate Elves too, and 
>believe that Tolkien made a stylistic and thematic error in presenting them
>as he did, but overall, I, and I believe most of the fantasy reading community,
>would give the mastership awards to Tolkien, and applaud Eddings as the 
>writer of a interesting little comic ditty.
>

You seem to forget that Tolkein already had a substantial source
in Norse mythology and Christian teaching upon which to build his
work. While his ideas are his (and I *do* love his work) he could
construct a world with a stable foundation. Eddings tried to
make his own rules, and I thought he really did quite well. Being
the kind who ranks the Silmarillion among my favorites, I esp.
enjoyed the prologues from old histories that Eddings began each
volume with. But I would have liked to have seen him expand upon it,
such as giving info on Erastide, for example. And I have always
had this yearning to read about Vo Wacune while Polgara lived there.
That's why, IMHO, some of Eddings' work make me think (mildly), 
"Oh, come on.." It doesn't have the solidity of Tolkien, true,
but then TOlkein was a pedant anda damn good writer, too.

BTW, do people remember when Polgara tells Garion that she
had always thought herself ugly until something happened. Well,
I smell a story in that (intentional teaser by Eddings or not).
And it sure sounds like a man was involved, which only
makes sense. Come on, she's 3000 years old, and never been in
love before??? Why else did she love Vo Wacune so much, if not
for the implied romance of the place? That could make such a
good story, short or otherwise. And I can imagine the scene
between Polgara and Belgarath when he allowed the city to be
destroyed. Hmm...

CKC
From: matth@terapin.com (Matt Houlahan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
Subject: Re: changing history (was Eddings vs. Tolkien)
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:58:22 PST
Organization: BBS

>What really bothers me is that Eddings just as obviously *did* start
>planning for a sequal part way through The Belgariad.  There are too
>many tie-ins that were blantantly planned to believe otherwise.  Yet
>he continued with the "one and only meeting" stuff.  I guess he was
>just allowing for a sequal, but not necessarily the one that he ended
>up writing.
>

  If you look into the Belgariad enough, you'll see that Eddings was basically
making up the story as he went along, and throwing in little sub-plots with it.
I don't have my books with me right now (they're at home and I'm stuck here),
but if you remember how the Mrin Codex's prophecy developed. First, Plogara
said it obsucrely mentions "the bear, the rat, and the man who will live
twice." then they add a few more characters, and finally at the end we have the
Knight Protector, the Bowman (who didn't do diddly), the Mother of the Race who
had died, etc, etc. 
  I know that there are a bunch more other things like that, and I really think
that Eddings should have put more pre-planning into the series before he wrote
it. But don't get me wrong, I love the Belgariad, and to a lesser extent the
Mallorean (which I thought he tried to make into a comedy), and only think that
minor problems like this come up only in subs like a.f.e
   Ah, well, even great authors are only human...
-Matt
From: ac463@yfn.ysu.edu (Rich Yauman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
Subject: Re: Tolkien, Eddings, Donaldson
Date: 25 Jul 92 07:36:04 GMT
Reply-To: ac463@yfn.ysu.edu (Rich Yauman)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH


This isn't going to be much of a flame, but I do have to say something
about the long tirade made a few posts ago, which was to long to bother
quoting.  Ok so you say you have a literature degree, good for you, but
that does not make you an expert in a genre that you don't even read.
If you read more Fantasy than you claim to, then your comments might 
actually carry some weight.  But you were reading something, that wasn't
in your interests, so big surprise, you didn't like it.  I'm sure that
plenty of people, including people with literature degrees, could read one
of your favorite books in a genre that interests you, and come off 
saying that it was a trite peiece of fluff writing, that was tossed
together for a quick profit. What I'm getting at is review what you know.
And quit trying to insult people's intelligenges by saying that what they
read is drivel.


-- 
 Rich Yauman ac463@yfn.ysu.edu  /  Only AMIGA USERS make it possible  /
------------------------------ /              ^^^^^                  /
If at first you don't succeed /_____________________________________/
Force it. If it breaks, it needed replaced anyway. -a Murphy's Law /
From: chris@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Chris Casey)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
Subject: New Subject: Sendaria
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:38:29 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Well, on a new & different topic, I've been wondering something.  Each kingdom
pretty much had their respective gods: Aloria (Riva, Cherek, Drasnia, & Algaria)
had Belar, Arendia had Chaldan, Tolnedra had Nedra, Ulgoland had UL, Nyissa had
Issa, Maragor had Mara, the Angarak kingdoms had Torak, & of course the Socerers
(Belgarath, Beldin, Polgara, et all) had Aldur.  So where does that put 
Sendaria?  I mean, it was at *least* as old as Riva Iron-Grip, according to the
prologue in Pawn of Prophecy.  Well, just looking for insight....

btw- I'm just about to start Demon Lord of Karanda, so if it actually says 
something in one of the later Mallorean books, write "spoiler" somewhere on your post....thanks....



Chris
From: lchang@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
Subject: RE: Belgariad Movie
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:55:47 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <matth.0u7g@terapin.com>, matth@terapin.com (Matt Houlahan) writes:
>    I'd love to see the Belgariad made into a movie as well, but I don't think
> that having an animated series would do it justice. I mean, look at the US's
> attitude towards animation. They just feel that it's stuff to amuse the kids on
> saturday morning, and not to be taken seriously. The Belgariad has a
> (relatively)serious plot. I mean, at least there are no fat cats or women
> pulling 10t mallets out of thin air (which is not all bad, mind you). This fact
> alone I feel will almost doom the idea as no company would be willing to invest
> the capital needed. 
>    Also, it seems that whenever an animated film is take seriously (I've seen
> about three), it just lacks something. It's not really something that I could
> put my finger on right now, but I know it's there.

	Also, everything always looks, well... cartoonish. I think maybe
comic book artists would do all right (i.e. Jim Lee, and others), but there
is another problem there in that every artist has a rather distinctive
style and there is no way one artist could handle a whole production, 
especially one on the scale of the Belgariad. In other words, there
would be a big problem getting each frame to match, etc...


Newsgroups: alt.fan.eddings
From: greg@pomona.claremont.edu (Tigger)
Subject: changing history (was Eddings vs. Tolkien)
Organization: Pomona College
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:52:37 PDT

In article <matth.0xkg@terapin.com>, matth@terapin.com (Matt Houlahan) writes:
>
> (3) and to a lesser extent, the Mallorean. Don't jump on me and
> pull out the flamethrower quite yet, because I'm not saying that the Mallorean
> was junk. I liked it alot, but when you compare it to the Belgariad, I'm sure
> you'll agree that the story was lacking. It didn't butcher the original plot or
> world, but IMHO it didn't compare with Belgariad and sort of ruined the ending
> of it...

Actually, The Mallorean did butcher The Belgariad in the sense that it
invalidated one of the central pieces of the story.  Eddings makes it
*very* clear in The Belgariad that the meeting of the Child of Light and
the Child of Dark is going to be *THE* event that will put the universe
back on track or send it into chaos forever.  This is stated in totally
unequivocal terms, on more than one occasion.  If anyone doesn't believe
that, let me know and I'll go home and get my books and give you the
quotes.

Then suddenly The Mallorean comes along and that meeting was just one of
many throughout history, and the next one will be *THE* event.  That
*really* pissed me off.  I like Eddings' work a lot.  I've enjoyed
everything of his that I have read, which is everything except _High
Hunt_, including The Mallorean.  But one of the things that I really
liked about The Belgariad was how consistant the world was, minor (mostly
editing) mistakes notwithstanding.  Then suddenly Eddings changes his
tune in a *major* way, and frankly I was disappointed.  It is obvious to
me that the idea of a sequal was not planned for the first series was
conceived, and Eddings felt he had to take some artistic license to do
the second series.  I wish he had come up with a plot line that hadn't
involved the "Convergent Destinies," as Beldin called them.

What really bothers me is that Eddings just as obviously *did* start
planning for a sequal part way through The Belgariad.  There are too
many tie-ins that were blantantly planned to believe otherwise.  Yet
he continued with the "one and only meeting" stuff.  I guess he was
just allowing for a sequal, but not necessarily the one that he ended
up writing.

--
|  Greg Orman                         greg@pomona.claremont.edu  |
|     A man's best friends:  a Harley, a Baretta and a Gund.     |