From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Departure ............................
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 07:16:36 GMT

dreamer@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (David Caruso II ~~~) writes:

>I feel more strongly about my beliefs than I did before I
>ever entered this forum, for many reasons.  I had to defend my beliefs and
>analyze them in many different ways.  I never realized how many selfish and
>illusioned people who would do every thing they can to seem intelligent and
>kill animals unnecessarily at the same time.  

	We all (I think) heartily slap you on the back for this.  It merely
means you have thought about your position, and that's all we can ask.

>And since my beliefs are morally
>correct in the first place

	Well, *you* think they are.  Let's not automatically call others
"wrong" just because we disagree with their position.  I point out that
wars have started with less, and a fundamental respect for life cannot be
without a respect for the diversity of views found in the world.

>	Let's face it.  I'm not naive.  I'm not subjective based in my own 
>emotions.  I'm not a "second-rate" writer.

	If you can ever write as well as Tom Clancy or Stephen King, can I
be your agent?

>It only makes me frustrated to know that some of the people I've dealt with 
>here are so disrespectful to life and stupid at the same time.  To many who I 
>have heard here, trying to seem intelligent, and thinking they are, they are 
>not truly intelligent.  There is much greater.

	This is, again, your opinion.  I'd say that what you percieve as
a disrespect for life is a respect based upon assumptions and beliefs
you do not make or subscribe too.  Being "stupid" is only in not looking
at oppossing information, which you seem to be guilty of.

>	And yes, I know I seem smug and arrogant for always talking about 
>intelligence ... but when I read responses and hear the words of many, it 
>always seems to come down to that.  I know this is difficult, if not 
>impossible, for many here to accept.

	That you may be smarter than I is something I can certainly accept,
but your posts hardly make for a convincing proof of this possibility.

>	Many people hold illusioned beliefs, and for one reason or another, 
>stick to them, never for a moment considering the possibility that they could 
>be wrong.  Selfishness is at the heart of what is truly wrong about people
>and  this world in which we live.  Selfishness.  There is so much of it.

	Might I point out that "selfish" has two sides, just like a sword.
First, I always consider that I might be wrong, but this doesn't mean that
I am automatically so.  You could be wrong too; have you ever thought of
that and modified your argument accordingly?  Second, your selfishness at
seeing animals granted equal rights as I enjoy will necessarialy infringe
upon my rights, yet you have the gall to call me selfish?  I do not know
what rights you ascribe to animals, but for the rancher your selfishness
has cost his right to "the pursuit of happiness" should ranching make him
happy.  More to home, my owning firearms has, due to your selfishness,
made them useful only for shooting other humans in self-defense, and
not in proviing food for the table and my family.  Where does your
selfish actions start to inhibit my selfish actions, and where do we
draw the line when it comes to exercising and infringing on rights?

>	I'd like to say another thing.  Just because I don't know every 
>statistic about hunting or animal rights, doesn't mean I am too naive to hold 
>a meritable opinion.  It all comes down to something so simple, that it's 
>overlooked.  Fundamental respect for life.

	I agree here, as there are others more qualified than I who can
give the statistics.  However, I suspect our ideas of a "respect for life"
are somewhat oppossed.  Feel free to think you are "right" in your views,
but don't deny me my freedom to think I am "right" in mine.

>	Go ahead, flame away.  It does not matter.  Misinterpret my words.  
>Filter them through your hate.  Twist them and plot against me.  In the long 
>run, it's all so useless.

	Have you considered talking to a shrink for delusions of paranoia?
Really, not everybody here is an enemy just because we disagree with your
opinions and moral judgements.  Come to my house, give me some notice, and
I'll be happy to serve you a vegetarian chili or whatever.  That's known
as "respect" and "consideration" where I come from.  I only hope that you
extend the same treatment towards my views as I extend towards yours.

>	Some may think I'm taking all this a bit too seriously.  But to them,
>I say that there is nothing more important than the sanctity of life and
>peace, universally.  

	And ther eshall be no peace universally until mankind has had
the idea of competetion removed.  For this, one need only look at how
socialism failed to see how the idea of competetion is inherent.

>Sport hunting is just one facet of a huge, terrible mindset; that 
>if pervasive in the minds of people, will ultimately result in the destruction
>of the civilization of mankind.  Fortunately, I have more belief in the human 
>spirit than to think this will eventually happen.

	I fail to see how this one concept will kill us all.  Perhaps you
would explain yourself here?  Darwin himself is probably interested.

>	I guarantee this:  Killing unnecessarily is on its way out.  Maybe not
>soon, but some day, the world will be a better place because society as a
>whole will learn the value of all life.  I promise.  I just hope that I live
>to see the day when it all comes down to these simple truths. 

	And just how you define "unnecessary" is crucial.  Society already
klnows the value of all life, and it varies from society to society.  In
China, let's say, it means zip/squat, and in the USA it means several
millions of dollars spent keeping a 90 year old man alive on machines.
I suggest you ponder this before condemning everybody who disagrees with
you as some sort who doesn't respect life.  I'd rather a bullet from my
.50 in the head than to die as my father did, but I do take into account
how my mother suffered, and wonder if my slow death would be better on
her.  Can you honestly say you've considered similar circumstances?

	You said you've left and will be back, some place, some time.
That you leave without responding gives you a certain black mark.  I
post this publicly because I believe others may do well to look at
what I've written and ponder their own beliefs.  I am out to change
the beliefs of nobody.  I merely ask that they attempt to understand
the views I hold.  Will you do that, or will you run and think you've
had the last word on the subject, as if the last word means anything?

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals