HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:31:33 GMT

dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
: 
: It works for a while, but I think you do run into the same problems that I
: was talking about.  Eventually, you buy fertility from somewhere else.  If
: I'm not mistaken, many of the old African and Near-Eastern cultures used
: agriculture techniques that we would consider extremely benign by our
: standards.  On that kind of time scale, they still burned the land out.  But
: I *think* it can be sustained for longer than the 100 years that we're
: talking about.  I'm getting away from my knowledge base here, so I'll shut
: up.  If anyone knows more about this than I do, more info would be welcome.

No - when properly set up, it does not deplete the soil. However, the yield
is also a minute fraction of the current farming methods. I am not sure that
the US could grow enough food to feed even the current population of the US,
much less have any to export.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: smithmc@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Lost Boy)
Subject: Re: skyclad ritual
Keywords: skyclad
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 07:42:50 GMT

In article <BzEn0o.3HH@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>I have a question. How many of you work skyclad and if so why do you
>work skyclad? I am wondering because I have just been introduced
>to a circle whose members apparently prefer to work skyclad. I have
>never worked skyclad myself and am not sure that I have a need to.
>I have no problem being nude but am not sure what value add there is
>to ritual working with no clothes. I am not for doing it just to do
>it, so I thought I would ask for peoples beliefs or feelings about it
>here to get a wide range of thought. So what is it? Do you work
>skyclad, and why?

My findings on skyclad work:

A lot of magick requires one to feel as though the experience were
extraordinary. For me, skycladness most certainly does this. I usu. work
skyclad when working alone, and rarely will do so with someone else
unless I know both of us will be comfy with the idea. This is very important,
since this also implies that I have to be comfortable with the possibility
that working skyclad can lead to sex (it happens rarely but it *did* happen
a couple of times.) In other words, there has to be a sense of perfect
trust there, trust which is perfect enough so that you will either sleep with
the partners or (even better) can work skyclad without sexual activity.
Such trust is rare and so therefore I work skyclad rarely.

There are advantages to working skyclad, of course. The primary one is that
it encourages a very rare trust between circle mates. I also find it much
more comfortable than working clothed, simply because clothing tends to 
restrict blood flow for me. Lasly, and perhaps most important and most 
personal to me, it allows me to feel as though the ritual is extraordinary,
thus adding power to the ritual. 


NB- Skycladness is not the only way to get the sort of feeling of trust
and specialness that a good ritual requires. Most people prefer some
sort of ritual dress for their ceremonies (such as Cathoilic Priests)
and I suppose that even a suit and tie would be appropriate if this made
you feel extraodrinary!!

Also, it is very important to remember that if you do not feel comfy skyclad,
or if you do not feel comfy with skyclad partners, then skycladness will 
become a MAJOR inhibition and will cause a great deal of magickal, psychological
and personal problems. ALways remember that magick requires trust!

I wish you all a very merry Christmas, a very joyous Yule, and a happy New
Year.

Pray for peace in Bosnia and Somalia.

Lost Boy

>
>Thanks for any and all input.
>
>Blessings
>
>al
>
>-- 
>Al Aldrich aaldrich@encore.com 305-797-2335
>"Mythology: The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its
>origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished
>from the true accounts which it invents later." -- Ambrose Bierce


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans)
Subject: Re: save paper
Organization: Cicely Public Access UNIX, Cicely, AK
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:24:09 GMT


[discussion on saving present-wrapping paper deleted]

An interesting idea I saw recently for those of you who are handy with 
a sewing machine: get inexpensive and/or holiday print fabric and whip out
a few simple bags (can be done with two short straight seams). Place present 
inside and tie top with ribbon.

After present is unwrapped, request that the bag be returned for reuse or
encourage the receiver to reuse the bag and spread the idea. The woman I 
heard this from said she had acquired quite a collection, had reused them for
a few seasons now, and planned to hit the sales after the holidays to get the
fabric at greatly reduced prices. No reason a family couldn't have a set of 
these for birthdays or other occasions, too.

If I had a sewing machine, I would definitely do this. As it is, I may just
use lengths of fabric and pins to achieve the same net effect.

Marty


=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Seems like there ought to be a way we could look each other in the eye
To see we're all in this together, and put all thoughts of victory aside.
Seems like there ought to be a way we could turn this fear into trust;
No matter what you say, there has to be a way --
Every living thing is counting on us."      

Marty Hale-Evans                                 M   @   *   O   %   8   U
89 Mass. Ave., Ste. 199, Boston, MA 02115       \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/




Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: fry@cc.swarthmore.edu (Phyllis Fry)
Subject: Re: What the hell to do for Solstice
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:57:43 GMT

	It seems to me that you are facing some of the same choices and problems
that a person "coming out" would be.  There is much to be gained and much
to be lost for both yourself and pagan culture.  If you do not tell them
they lose you becuase they will not know who you are.  If you do tell you
may lose them because they can not deal with who you are.  But, you may
make it that much easier for the next person who has to face this choice
and you may move pagan culture a little more out of the darkness.  I do not
mean to tell you what to do.  Only to suggest that there is a large number
of books writen on the issue of "Coming Out" that might help you think
about what you want to do and why you might want to do it.

Best of luck to
you.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: bast@wam.umd.edu (Jaguar)
Subject: Re: druid tree talking
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:43:43 GMT


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: druid tree talking
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Keywords: 


Well, as fro books on druids, I have yet to find one I really like.
My suggestion would be to read alot of celtic mythology.
A book that has an interesting section on the role druids played, and
ceaser's run in with them is in priestesses, by Norma Godd
Goodrich.
As for books on shamanic related topics, I would reccomend:
The way of the shaman  by Michael Harner
The Celitic shaman, by john Matthews
And Journeys out of body and/or far journeys by  robert monroe
for starters.
Keep in mind that I tend to approach this stuff friom a more 
scholastic point of view, and of such, I like my books to have
at least a chance of standing up to scholastic scrutiny.
There are alot of 'junk' type books out there.
The worst one I ever saw was a book on 'celtic' runes... with norse runes
all over the cover. Inside, interpetations of norse rune...
the poor author thought these were 'celtic runes' not a single word
about the oh  ogham runes.. (the celtic runes.

Jaguar
fur still poofed up from finals, tail still lashing.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: jnewman@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Re: CONTRADICTIONS about God
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:12:59 GMT

  Boy, if that's a parody, it's about as funny as glass in my eye.  Thoughts
like this (although rarely this maniacal) have led to some pretty hideous
abominations for people following a "merciful, loving" god.  This miht also be
a good idea to mention that Heaven and Hell are really Christian concepts.  The
City of Light is not a place of reward, but rather a state of mind, like
Nirvana.  Hell isn't even mentioned in the original Hebrew, and Satan
(Ha'Tzatan) is basically a prosecuting lawyer-just and reasonable, but not on
your side.  There is no where in the Torah or Talmud (or any other book) that
acctually describes Ha'Tzatan winning the argument.

  If that's a paroydy, then ha fucking ha.  If it's not, then engage me in a
battle of wits, you who come unarmed.

				Sh'ma yisrael: Adonai elohenu, Adonai Echad!
					(by the way, Jehovah doesn't mean
					anything. It's an attempt at
					pronouncing an ineffible word, YHVH. 
					It's not a name, but a designation.)

					Y'hoshua ben Adam v'Isha v'Ha'Olam

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:56:43 GMT

ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>> Bio-intensive gardening techniques work incredibly well and
>> produce a *shockingly* high yield with no damage to environment
>> if done correctly. I once planted and maintained such a garden
>> and produced enough vegetables to keep me and 6 others
>> *perpetually* in salad year round on a 20 foot square plot of
>> soil.

dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
> Yes, I did that too.  Of course, I was buying several pounds of
> grain a week, as well as potatoes, fruits, and dairy products.
> I don't know how much land was required to grow the rice I ate.
> I also was buying cow manure at the local garden store, because
> the only thing going into my compost heap was leaves, coffee
> grounds, and orange rinds.  So in a sense, I was buying
> fertility from somewhere else and dumping it into my 20 square
> feet of denial.  ...  If I couldn't have bought cow manure, my
> compost heap wouldn't have been able to keep that ground
> fertile.

I've always wondered about this.  Here we are, as a society,
where we package cow manure, chicken manure, and several other
kinds of animal sh*t and sell it to farmers for fertilizer.

But on the whole, what's happening for our agriculture is that
we pump fertilizer out of the oil-pumps, process it into
fertilizer, grow crops with it, send those crops to the cities,
and then pump the human generated fertilizer out into the
ocean.  What a grand cycle!

It seems to me that the reasons are purely social inhibitions.
We can step back a little and say "Gosh, that chicken sh*t is
good fertilizer.  Maybe I should spend a couple bucks and get
some of it to spread in my garden."  But we can't admit that
human wastes would be great fertilizer.

Is there a non-social reason for this?  Disease doesn't explain
it, since chickens and cattle have diseases communicable to
humans.  We have things like detergent in our sewage, but 
they shouldn't hurt the farmland or the farm workers.  Why
don't we do it?

Does *anyone* know of *any* city that does a single-stage
processing on their sewage and then sells the resulting sludge
to local farmers?  Or even double-stage processing?

Fertile Blessings!

		-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	T. O. Radzykewycz	     	|  do as ye will.
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|
					|  "Just pray for a
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |  tough hide and a
	        			|  tender heart."
	        			|    -- Ruth Graham
------------------------------------------------------------
Tribal Mother was old, and lay ill on a bed of moss and
fern.   Her hair was long and grey.   Her face was very
wrinkled.    Tamura'nun-pa thought:   How beautiful you
are, Mother, so old and wise.
From: lance@Circle.Raleigh.NC.US (Lance A. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change - Porcelain +
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:19:02 GMT
Organization: The Full Circle BBS, Raleigh NC - DOS/Waffle 1.65

wolfe@wolves.Durham.NC.US (G. Wolfe Woodbury) writes:
> Actually, one of the hardest materials to recycle in the class of
> building materials is portland cement, it undergoes a physical chemical
> change that is practically irreversable.

Yikes, the best thing you could do with old portland cement is break it up 
and use it for rip-rap on a shoreline or as "gravel" in new cement.

Lance

--
The Full Circle
 Domain: lance@circle.raleigh.nc.us (Lance A. Brown)  [ preferred ]
  Bangs: ...!wolves!circle!lance 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Dec12.235643.6171@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 13 Dec 1992 04:55:00 UTC

In article <1992Dec12.235643.6171@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> 
radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:
>But on the whole, what's happening for our agriculture is that
>we pump fertilizer out of the oil-pumps, process it into
>fertilizer, grow crops with it, send those crops to the cities,
>and then pump the human generated fertilizer out into the
>ocean.  What a grand cycle!

A large source of nitrate pollution comes from SUBurbanites who
over-fertilize their lawns. If the grass is left where it is cut instead
of bagging it for the trash, there is no need for fertilizer. Better
yet, remove the lawn. Lawns rose as a status symbol in Europe; it said, look
at me, I'm so filthy rich I don't need to have all my land in wheat or
rye, I can grow a lawn free of grazing animals. What's the most popular
home gardening product? Weed-N-Feed. Think about it.

>It seems to me that the reasons are purely social inhibitions.
>We can step back a little and say "Gosh, that chicken sh*t is
>good fertilizer.  Maybe I should spend a couple bucks and get
>some of it to spread in my garden."  But we can't admit that
>human wastes would be great fertilizer.

Urine is good, but the high nitrogen can also burn if applied directly,
so that means it can also be an herbicide. Feces on the other hand must
be processed with care to avoid disease transmission.

>Is there a non-social reason for this?  Disease doesn't explain
>it, since chickens and cattle have diseases communicable to
>humans.  We have things like detergent in our sewage, but 
>they shouldn't hurt the farmland or the farm workers.  Why
>don't we do it?
>Does *anyone* know of *any* city that does a single-stage
>processing on their sewage and then sells the resulting sludge
>to local farmers?  Or even double-stage processing?

Yes. For example, Milorganite from Milwaukee. But, not recommended
for plants that are to be eaten because of heavy metals and other
possible problems. The basic problem is that there is no control over
what people dump down the drains.

If you are interested in uses of grey and black water, here is a good
reference:
More Other Homes and Garbage, Designs for Self-Sufficient Living, Jim
Leckie et al, Sierra Club Press, SF, ISBN:0-87156-274-X
Also:
Appropriate Technology Sourcebook, A Guide to Practical Books for
Village and Small Community Technology, Ken Darrow, Mike Saxenian,
Volunteers in Asia Pub, ISBN:0-917704-17-7
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: What is a Pagan?  
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:39:31 GMT

In article <fWH5Rkn@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:

>4) Islam
>	Christians refered to Moslems as pagans during the Crusades.
>	Moslems refered to Christians as idolaters and non-believers.

 Muslims (more correct spelling) refer to Jews and Christians as people
"Of the Book." They aren't considered pagans and, in fact, they have a
special status (according to Muhammad) because they are people of the
Book. They are to be respected and not forced to convert. The same cannot
be said for pagans.

Wassail,
Al
From: napalm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (jason hill)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: UFO EVIDENCE VS. Carl Sagan
Date: 14 Dec 92 04:48:44 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

does anyone care?

even if there is a alien culture out there
and even if we meet with them our two cultures would be mutually 
unintelligble

jason
visualise whirled peas


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda)
Subject: Re: Truth???/Psychiatrists and homosexuality.
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:10:01 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.201922.1@hamp.hampshire.edu> jnewman@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.194922.9024@athena.cs.uga.edu>, tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
>> In article <1992Dec7.005114.14512@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec6.234615.9660@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mritchie@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael S Ritchie) writes:
>>>>is it nature or nurture?  A "truth" about homosexuality *used to
>>>>be* that it was an illness, but very few psychiatrists would
>>>>espouse that particular "truth" these days.  Truth is a construct
>>>
>>>
>>>	I'd propose that this is incorrect.  The removal of homosexuality
>>>	from the roster is accepted by most people to have been purely
>>>	political.  In fact, an article in the paper sometime last
>>>	week pointed this fact out, along with the interestingtidbit
>>>	that some 70%+ still considered it to be rooted in mental illness.
>>>
>> Intersesting, for what it's worth, I just read this last night in a recently
>> published book by Steven Goldberg, "When Wish Replaces Thought".  2/3 of the
>> APA said they thought homosexuality was a disorder AFTER the vote which
>> declared homosexuality normal.
>> 
>> T. Kalivoda
>> UGA
>
>  Well, who cares?  It's not our business as heterosexuals, and it certainly
>doesn't harm anyone.  So how is that an illness?  Perhaps it is an "imbalance"
>or some sort of disorder ***relative to what is considered normal society***
>but if a disorder is widespread enough, what makes it a disorder?

I strongly suggest Steven Goldberg's book as he investigates some of your
questions.  He argues that science can speak about the abnormacly of
homosexuality and avoid the realm of compeletely subjective arguments.

T . K.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans)
Subject: Re: Santa Claus
Organization: Cicely Public Access UNIX, Cicely, AK
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:49:17 GMT


>> I still leave cookies for Santa, because I consider it a ritual to help feed
>> that spirit and keep it living in all of us. Maybe one day it will become
>> strong enough to stick around for more of the year. Of course, I have to eat
>> them myself sometimes, but I kinda think of that as taking in the spirit and
>> resolving to "keep Christmas in my heart".

>Leaving cookies for Santa is a great idea.  Only is Santa really the best
>choice for the role of *Santa*?  Are any of the incarnations of Solstice
>gift giver more noticeably pagan?  Father Christmas doesn't cut it.
>Saint Nicholas obviously doesn't cut it.  Is Santa one of the purely
>Christian inventions for Christmas, or does he come over from some earlier
>pagan tradition?

>Maybe we could leave the cookies for the Solstice Elves instead?  

I think there are probably lots of incarnations to choose from, with many
forms. Any of them would probably be fine, but that doesn't help with your
original question about dealing with this particular form that's pervasive 
in the culture we live in, does it?

Santa as I know him probably comes from a somewhat Christian source, maybe,
but even if he does I think he's undergone a transformation that has 
secularized the idea. He's become the American version of all these gift-givers
from various cultures, so, living here, why not make some kind of peace with
the native version? Is that possible or not? 

I guess what I'm saying is, do you want to help connect your child to the 
culture she lives in while remaining true to your ideals, or do you want to 
take on the larger job of replacing major parts of that culture
singlehandedly? Also, is it possible to separate some cultural issues from 
spiritual or religious ones? I'm sure you've dealt with the same questions 
many times before, so how have you handled it with other things?

My personal opinion is that it's good to deviate from the prevalent society
when it's important, but it's also important to help a child cope with living
in the world she lives in. Your mileage may vary, and also your decisions on
what's important enough to buck the system on. What do you think?

Marty



=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Seems like there ought to be a way we could look each other in the eye
To see we're all in this together, and put all thoughts of victory aside.
Seems like there ought to be a way we could turn this fear into trust;
No matter what you say, there has to be a way --
Every living thing is counting on us."      

Marty Hale-Evans                                 M   @   *   O   %   8   U
89 Mass. Ave., Ste. 199, Boston, MA 02115       \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: re: pagan origin of christmas customs
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 21:44:19 GMT

Regarding the christmas tree,

  I have heard/read in several places that this was a Roman, not
a Germanic custom, associated with the Saturnalia, a festival of
this time of year.

  The practice had become completely extinct by modern times, until
revived by Queen Victoria in the last century, in a search for
novelty in Christmas celebrations.

  Mind you, I've been wrong before.  Al Moore
From: bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (William E. White )
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: nuclear
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:36:06 GMT
Organization: Ohio University, Computer Science Department

In article <XJuqVB1w165w@Circle.Raleigh.NC.US> lance@Circle.Raleigh.NC.US (Lance A. Brown) writes:

>And the fact that a fission reaction the operators lose control of can 
>easily build to the point where it explodes or "drills" its way into the 
>ground.  This is not good.

This is also not necessarily true.  There are several reactor designs which
incorporate passive shutdown systems.  One I recall involved the use of 
borated water; if the core raised too high in temperature, it would melt
through into the borated water chamber.  There were other designs.
Note that I'm not saying this is completely safe, only that meltdown is
much less likely with these designs than standard ones.  Trouble is, most
reactors were built before people really knew what they were doing (it
can be argued we still don't).
Incidentally, a nuclear fission explosion requires a very rapid assembly
of material; a nuclear reactor cannot undergo a nuclear explosion.

>Lance

> Domain: lance@circle.raleigh.nc.us (Lance A. Brown)  [ preferred ]
>  Bangs: ...!wolves!circle!lance 


-- 
|  Bill White   +1-614-594-3434     | bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu             |
|  31 Curran Dr., Athens OH  45701  | bwhite@bigbird.cs.ohiou.edu (alternate) |
|  SCA: Erasmus Marwick, Dernehealde Pursuivant, Dernehealde, Middle Kingdom  |
Newsgroups: alt.pagan