HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:10:08 -0500 
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Yet another redaction questions

Last weekend I  decided to attend an event with an Arts and Sciences
competition that takes place this weekend, and I got a bee in my bonnet
to do some sort of food entry.  So after looking through my available
books, I've come up with this.  Please, please, please advice, comments,
additional sources are all appreciated  (especially advice and comments)

Pomesmoille/Apple Moyle  (NOT Apple Moys)!!

The originals are from "Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks", the first from
the Harleian MS 278, and the second from the Laud MS 553:

Apple Moyle -- Nym Rys, and bray hem wyl, & temper hem with almaunde
mylke, & boyle it; & take Applys, & pare hem, an smal screde hem in
mossellys, throw on sugre y-now & coloure it with Safroun, & caste
ther-to gode pouder, & serue forth.

Pomesmoille -- Nym rys & bray hem in a morter, tempre hem up with
almande milke, boille hem : nym appelis & kerue hem as small as douste,
cast hem in after ye boillyng, & sugar : colour hit with safron, cast
therto goud poudre, & sif hit forth.

So, here's my ingredients/process:

1/2 to 3/4 cup rice flour
2 cups almond milk
3 cups shredded or grated tart apples
sugar to taste
1 thread saffron (or less)
1 tsp nutmeg, or 2 tsp anise or fennel

(Note, I picked these quantities off the top of my head, I'll be playing
with them this week)

Run rice through the coffee grinder until fine.; sift to get out any big
pieces.  Make almond milk (using the recipe in To the King's Taste).  My
first guess is the consistency of the rice/almond milk mixture should be
about the consistency of cream of wheat.  So, heat the rice, almond milk
mixture over low heat, stirring contantly until it thickens.  Stir in
the apples and sugar.  Stir in the saffron.  Remove from heat, put on
serving platter and sprinkle with nutmeg, anise or fennel  (Liking a
licoricy flavor, and having an abundance of fennel seed on hand, I'll
probably use fennel).

I don't know how it will keep, or how it will be cold, but I guess I'll
find out.  I think this is a soft apple and  rice pastry rather than an
apple sauce, partly because the same manuscripts contain recipes for
Apple Moys which really IS an Apple sauce (boiled apples run through a
sieve and buttered, or where rice flour and almond milk IS used, the
apples are cooked and mushed before they're added), and because the Laud
MS contains a recipe for Rys Moilles  which is essentially Pomesmoille
without the apples, saffron and sprinkled spice.

So, comments?  Questions?  Suggestions?

Thanks much!

toodles, gretchen

Xref: sparky rec.food.historic:791 soc.history:9563
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,soc.history
Subject: Re: Pilgrims
Date: 19 Nov 92 10:30:52 GMT
	<JMC.92Nov18144613@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <JMC.92Nov18144613@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:

   Why should David Adams spoil Jane Beckman's fun just in order to
   bring in a few vulgar facts?  The somberer the pilgrims can be
   depicted, the more fun we can have.

You could always have an Amish Party - everybody sits round silently reading
the Bible...
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)

		
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: uk01719@nx03.mik.uky.edu (Tracy D. Kilroy)
Subject: Re: Aztec Thanksgiving meal
    <1992Nov16.134653.16063@hemlock.cray.com>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Path: nx03.mik.uky.edu!uk01719
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:55:38 GMT

In <1992Nov16.134653.16063@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com (David Adams) writes:
|Isn't there a lot of sensationalism in all of this?  (I won't dispute
|that they had human sacrifices, but did they dine on them?)


Unfortunately no there isn't, the Aztecs did feast on sacrificial victims
and , as an example, would taunt the Spanish by saying they were going to
be satiated for a long time after their battle was over, because they           would sacrifice the warriors that were captured in battle and have a            huge feast to celebrate.  I don't think they ate the hearts though, I           think they were reserved for the actual sacrifice to the gods and put           in a special altar.


Tracy
University of Kentucky
uk01719@mik.uky.edu
 
 




Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: Re: "Cole" flour
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 03:06:36 GMT

In article <1ekisoINNb0a@moe.ksu.ksu.edu> jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders) writes:
			.
			.
			.
>     "Cole" flour was made in this way:  common ashes were sifted into
>     a pot or kettle and heated until the ashes boiled like plaster of
>     paris; shelled corn was poured into the boiling ashes, and stirred
>     until the grain could be broken between the fingers.  It was then
>     poured out into a sheet and sifted to separate the ashes from the
>     corn.  The corn was then ground (we used steel mills) into meal,
>     and it was ready for use.  It was eaten dry or stirred in water
>     or made into mush, and its use was very common in the early days
>     of Texas.
>
>Since the ashes are a source of lye, the meal produced by this method
>is probably similar to hominy grits.  The point that puzzles me is
>why go to all this trouble?  Why not simply grind the plain corn?  Is
>there some advantage to corn treated in this way?
			.
			.
			.
Yes.  It's prophylaxis against pellagra.

It's a long and interesting story, one you should
be able to pursue yourself by looking up "pellagra".
The outline is something like this:  corn can be so
inexpensive that the impoverished in some areas eat
little else (current problem centers include parts
of South Africa, lower Egypt, and southwestern India).
Such people don't receive sufficient niacin, and they
experience diarrhea, mental degeneration, and skin
lesions.

However, an alkaline environment mobilizes the niacin
that is otherwise indigestibly bound in corn.  Pel-
lagra hasn't been a problem, apparently, among Native
Americans for some thousands of years, because they
share the cultural practice of ash-washing.

I've simplified the story.  There are co-factors in
the absorption of niacin, there's a sub-plot about
the protein quality of corn, there is research on the
chemistry that remains to be done, and there's plenty
of social history.  If we decide to discuss this more,
we probably should cross-post to sci.bio or some other
appropriate groups.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: HERBALISM:  Horehound
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 16 Nov 92 13:59:36 CST


I tried using some horehound tea for a cough this weekend.
If I tell you how well it worked I suppose they would send
me to jail, so I won't.  ;^)

But man it was awful bitter!  Maybe the reason it seems to 
work so well it that the bitterness causes a "shock therapy"
where in the bitter taste makes your head and body to shake
or shudder, which takes your mind off the need to cough, and
at the same time looses flem.  ;^)  ;^)

(I used about 2 T of a horehound tea every 4 to 10 hours depending
on need.)


Nasty stuff!  

I once had this professor who claimed that he loved horehound 
candy.  There must be something awful evil in a man like that
that would prod him into becoming a mathematician.  ;^)

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       Old Sourdoughs never die.  They just ferment away.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Trenchers
From: Pat.Churchill@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 02:08:24 GMT
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange

In article <1en4b3INN4am@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> msr7@po.CWRU.Edu (Mark S. Rzeszotarski) writes:
> 
>         I am looking for information about "trenchers",
> a flat bread popular in medieval times.  Any references,
> history or recipes would be appreciated.
> -- 
> Mark S. Rzeszotarski, Ph.D. (msr7@po.cwru.edu) CWRU Biomed. Eng.
> Medical Physicist, The Mt. Sinai Medical Center, Cleveland, OH, USA
> "So long and thanks for all the Saccharomyces Exiguus!"



From memory trenchers were used as plates and would soak up meat
juice, gravy etc.  I have a feeling the well off ate off them then the
gravy soaked trenchers were passed on for the poor to eat.  I will see
if I can find the precise info in one of my books at home.  They
actually sound like a good idea for a barbecue :-)  Use your plate then
eat it.
-- 
| The floggings will continue until morale improves
| Pat.Churchill@bbs.actrix.gen.nz (Pat Churchill, Wellington, New Zealand)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: wvenable@attunga.stats.adelaide.edu.au (Bill Venables)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Victorian kitchen
Date: 22 Nov 92 09:59:30
Organization: Department of Statistics, University of Adelaide
NNTP-Posting-Host: attunga.stats.adelaide.edu.au
In-reply-to: bobw@csg.uwaterloo.ca's message of Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:10:06 GMT

In article <BxtpA2.JzD@sdf.lonestar.org> jtrimble@sdf.lonestar.org
> (John Trimble) writes: Seeking reccomendations of books on English
> kitchen practices and cooking with information that would have been
> current from about 1850 to 1900.  We are interested in class
> distinctions, foods, hygiene, layout of kitchen, utensils, everything
> that was likely to be found or to occur in a kitchen of that time in
> London.  We are particularly interested in the treatment of oysters and
> ordinary to sophisticated knowledge of them at that time.  Many thanks.
> jtrimble@sdf.lonestar.org
>

You might be lucky and find "Kettner's Book of the Table" by E. S. Dallas.
Kettner was a famous London cook in the 1870s and Dallas "ghosted" this
collection of recipes, lore, ettiquette, customs, and notes on the origins
and even etymology of the words related to, cooking.  It first appeared in
1877 but it was re-issued in 1968 with a preface by Derek Hudson by Centaur
Press, Ltd., London ("900000 06 6" - I think it's pre ISBN).  It's a
fascinating book in it's own right, but seems to have all the information
you want.

For example it has entries on Oysters (general and anecdotes), Oyster Sauce
(recipe), Oyster soup (recipe), Oyster Forcemeat (recipe and method),
Scalloped Oysters (recipe), and on Oysters in France (anecdote).  Too much
to post, but would anyone like a small part of this stuff?

Bill

--
___________________________________________________________________________
Bill Venables, Dept. of Statistics, | Email: venables@stats.adelaide.edu.au
Univ. of Adelaide, South Australia. | Tel: +61 8 228 5412  Fax: ...232 5670
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Puritan, was Aztec, Thanksgiving meal
Date: 18 Nov 92 01:34:57 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

Can't say as I heard the Aztecs feasted on their sacrifices.
Wore their skins, that was something else.  Maybe someone was
thinking of Polynesians...

But on the topic of Thanksgiving, a friend and I gave a true
"Pilgrim" oriented Thanksgiving, a few years back.  Somber
colored clothes were encouraged.  All food was allowed to get
very cold as we read large numbers of Bible passages,
especially from the Apocrytha, and much of it centered around
corn puddings.  

The piece de resistance was dessert.  We made coffin-shaped
gingerbread with "REPENT!" scratched into the surface.  Great
fun.  Very authentically capturing the true feel of a Puritan
Thanksgiving feast.
--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"The field of pseudo-science hasn't progressed much in ten
years, except to gain access to the net." --from ca.earthquakes
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Aztec Thanksgiving meal
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:47:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.134653.16063@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes:
>In article 16NOV199212050337@nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov, rusty@nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov (Kenneth Hall) writes:
>|In article <Bxo5Lt.Cyo@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, stcmille@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Stephen C. Miller) writes...
>|>In article <CRAIG.92Nov12111008@kbsw3.kbsw1.uucp> craig@kbsw1.uucp (Craig Smith 806 1080) writes:
>|>>My wife and I are starting to plan an Aztec Thanksgiving meal.
>|>>We would like some help.  We have some ideas, but in order to
>|> 
>|> 
>|>I would suggest first capturing several members of a neighboring tribe
>|>to sacrifice - much nicer than eating your friends.  Sacrificing them
>|>will both provide you with a nice dinner and keep the sun in the
>|>universe, an important consideration when planning any dinner.  I've
>|>heard that giblet gravy is especially appropriate with an Aztec
>|>thanksgiving dinner.
>|>-- 
>|>--------------------
>|>=
>|
>|Other notes as once pointed out by my ex who is of said culture.
>|
>|Be sure that your knives are sharpened (preferably made from 
>|obsidian).  And the human heart is best served while still beating, so 
>|make sure that you know exactly what time your guest will be coming 
>|and pray for no late arrivals.  Also,  as suggested go for a 
>|neighboring tribe, selecting the younger members for your meal.  The 
>|meat is not as tough and lower in colesterol.
>|
>|Bon appetite.
>
>Isn't there a lot of sensationalism in all of this?  (I won't dispute
>that they had human sacrifices, but did they dine on them?)

Although they did sacrifice a bunch of folks, they didn't just
chow down on them wholesale.  Any munchies were primarily 
ceremonial -- warriors eating a small amount of a sacrificed warrior 
to gain his strength.  Cultures that eat humans get sickly real
quick -- any parasites your food has you'll get unless your
food is cooked well done.  The parasites that infect non-primates 
have a harder time living in you, trichinosis being one exception.

Seriously, I seem to remember reading about classic Aztec dishes 
such as salamanders in green chile sauce.  Another classic dish 
with more obtainable ingredients might be turkey in mole sauce.  

Julie
DISCLAIMER:  All opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: welch@sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arun Welch)
Subject: Re: 'Pioneer sugar'?
Originator: welch@sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: OSU-LAIR
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:20:57 GMT

In article <8566.3400@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM> jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman) writes:

   >|There is a sweetener out there
   >|which is called 'pioneer sugar,' and was evidently made by the early
   >|pioneers in their treks across the great 'wilderness.' What is it? The

   This confuses me a bit.  "Made" by pioneers "during" their
   treks?  Harvested, I can believe, but "made" is something
   entirely different, especially considering the effort required
   in refining the raw materials enough to get something
   sugarlike.

Actually, only white refined sugar requires a lot of effort. Making
unrefined brown sugar is closer in terms of effort to making apple
butter or berry jelly (about a day's worth of work), most of which
simply requires making sure that the stuff doesn't burn. 

Another guess on "pioneer sugar": sorghum. Depending on which route
across the country said pioneers took, they might have run across it.

...arun
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arun Welch
Lisp Systems Programmer, Lab for AI Research, Ohio State University
welch@cis.ohio-state.edu


Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,soc.history
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Pilgrims 
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 18 Nov 92 13:31:22 CST

In article 14448@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM, jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman) writes:
|
|But on the topic of Thanksgiving, a friend and I gave a true
|"Pilgrim" oriented Thanksgiving, a few years back.  Somber
|colored clothes were encouraged.  All food was allowed to get
|very cold as we read large numbers of Bible passages,
|especially from the Apocrytha, and much of it centered around
|corn puddings.  
|
|The piece de resistance was dessert.  We made coffin-shaped
|gingerbread with "REPENT!" scratched into the surface.  Great
|fun.  Very authentically capturing the true feel of a Puritan
|Thanksgiving feast.
|--
|  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]


I think there are a few misconceptions here.  The pilgrims who
came on the Mayflower were not puritans.  The puritans came to 
the same area a little later and were (at least originaly) a 
seperate group.

The pilgrims never called themselves pilgrims.  A minority of them
were members of a religious group which had its origins in Scrooby
District in England.  (William Brewster was postmaster of Scrooby 
District.  William Bradford was also there.)  These would use the word 
"seperatists" to describe themselves to denote that they had seperated 
from the church of England.  The majority of those who came over on the
Mayflower were not affiliated with this (or any other particular 
religious) group.  They were called "strangers" by this first group who 
also called themselves "saints".

Neither group, neither saints nor strangers had any prohibition on
colorful or fancy clothing.

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       Old Sourdoughs never die.  They just ferment away.



Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: amarcin@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (aarden bret)
Subject: 'Pioneer sugar'?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 03:52:01 GMT

I've already posted this question to rec.food.veg, but I thought I
might get a response from this group. There is a sweetener out there
which is called 'pioneer sugar,' and was evidently made by the early
pioneers in their treks across the great 'wilderness.' What is it? The
package doesn't say, and I've got a soy- and corn-intolerant friend
who's wondering if she has to worry about eating the stuff.

Thanks for any responses!

-Bret Aarden.
From: jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: 'Pioneer sugar'?
Date: 20 Nov 1992 20:24:18 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: curie.phys.ksu.edu

In article <WELCH.92Nov20142057@sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu> welch@sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arun Welch) writes:
>
>Another guess on "pioneer sugar": sorghum. Depending on which route
>across the country said pioneers took, they might have run across it.
>

The notion that sorghum might be the "pioneer sugar" is a reasonably
good one.  In doing a little reading about it, I noticed, however, 
that it is an introduced species in
the New World.  Perhaps by the mid 1800's it was growing wild, but the
more likely thing is that the "pioneers" raised the sorghum as a crop
for the molasses and sugar which could be obtained from it.
--
Justin M. Sanders    
Dept. of Physics     "I could not fail to disagree with you less."
Kansas State Univ.                           -- Gabriel Weinreich
From: wex@castle.ed.ac.uk (John Wexler)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Aztec Thanksgiving meal
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:37:34 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University Computing Service

What may be the earliest recorded recipe for chile con carne in European
literature appears in Bernal Diaz's "Conquest of New Spain". 
Unfortunately it is not practical to recreate this version today, but
it might enhance the effect of your meal if you could at least describe
the dish to your guests.  As I recall (I don't have the reference with
me) the invading Spaniards were held up in a long and messy siege, and
numbers of them were frequently captured, sacrificed and eaten.  The
defenders of the city would taunt them by calling out tempting
descriptions of the chillis and tomatoes boiling in cauldrons waiting
for the addition of meat.  Look it up for more details.

    John Wexler
    Edinburgh
From: jm67@hydra.gatech.edu (MURRAY,JEFFREY P)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: 'Fundamentals' of Italian cooking ...?
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:35:48 GMT
Followup-To: rec.food.historic
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
In-reply-to: sgl@aeg.dsto.gov.au's message of 13 Nov 92 20:14:18 GMT


Thus spake Simon Langford:
>A bit of a general question for you - and I need (any) answers as 
>soon as possible - as part of an assignment discussing the 
>influences of Italian immigrants in Australia their effects on 
>"food" are to be considered - so as a starting point for that,
>I was just wondering if anyone out there could describe 
>fundamentals of Italian cooking and foods. That is, what
>distinguishes 'traditional' Italian meals etc from that
>of other nationalities, and how this has been introduced 
>to other societies today. 

   I think that your "starting point" is likely to be much
more problematic than your overall concern. Let me explain.

   "Italian" cooking is as meaningless a phrase as "Asian"
cooking (well, maybe not that bad, but similar ;-), in that
Italy is a hodgepodge of different regions with different 
traditional crops and food preparation techniques. These 
range from Sicilian cooking, which is heavily influenced by
North African and Middle Eastern cultural influences, to 
the cooking of the Torino region, which is very "French"
in ingredients/preparation of foods.

   If your interest is in the influence of Italian immigrants
on the cuisine of Australia, you may find your task considerably
easier, since most Italian emmigrants hail from very specific
locales; in most instances, Napoli and environs. To the 
extent that the majority of Italian-Australians are of 
Neopolitan ancestry, their preferred cooking techniques 
can be readily nailed down (e.g., Neopolitans prefer the use of 
olive oil to butter as a cooking fat, they make prodigious
use of tomatoes and eggplant, etc.). 

I would suggest you find some Southern Italian cookbooks (e.g.
Neopolitan) and compare the typical vegetables, starches, oils, etc.
used to those used in a Northern Italian cookbook (say a Tuscan
cookbook).  I believe you'll find the differences to be quite
startling. A few (VERY general) differences in cooking ingredient
preferences in Southern Italy versus Northern are listed below. 
PLEASE note that these are general observations...there are MANY
exceptions to the listings. Note also how many of the differences
can readily be explained by geography. Hope some of this helps!


Southern Italy       Northern Italy

Olive Oil            Butter
Soft Cheeses         Hard Cheeses
  Ricotta              Parmesan
  Provolone            Pecorino
Commercial Pasta     Egg noodles
Tomato Sauces        Cream sauces
More reliance        More reliance 
  on vegetables         on pork,
  and seafood           veal
More "peasant"       More affluent
  styles of             preparation/
  cooking/              presentation
  presentation         
                       
--
MURRAY,JEFFREY P
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!jm67
Internet: jm67@prism.gatech.edu