HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Witticisms (was Re: Eulogy for Axel Bandit)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:59:47 GMT


Lord Ian of Gloucester writes:
>                  Who believes that the most realistic facet of the SCA is
>                  byzantine power structure and decision making.

As Mediocratis of Hellas (Jerry Jacks) used to say--

If you can't stand the Byzantine intrigue, get out of the cabal.  :-)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)

Nothing in this missive constitutes an act or opinion of the Lord High
Constable of the Kingdom of the West unless otherwise explicitly stated.
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: Longshot@f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mailing list address and information wanted.
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1993 10:29:05

A node called Dan Sorenson coded to node All,
on 00 Jan 07  09:03:00, about Mailing list address and information wanted.;

 DS> Good morn!  A few people in other groups have asked if the
 DS> Rialto is available via mail list.  Their sites carry only the
 DS> approved sci and comp groups, hence the Rialto is unavailable to them
 DS> via normal means.  Please mail information or suggestions to me if
 DS> possible. 
 DS> I am,
 DS> Erik Aarskog, Axed Root, Calontir

lo'
   BTW, Rialto, Fido Mideval, Use Net Heraldry, & the other Heraldry areas are
now available out of Wichita, ks by way of the Cyberpunk system 
(316-794-3559).   Leave Mail to Legacy at the logon door to gain access &
please state that you are in the SCA.

                                                ~ Aindries


... Cyberpunk Labs, Where the Tomorrow's Future Was Being Made Yesterday!
 * Origin: Calontir -- We Deliver. (1:291/19.0)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Are you a Rialto Geek?
Date: 4 Jan 93 14:32:48 GMT


    Mark Cochran wrote:

 MA> Sorry Tadhg, I guess you don't count as a Rialto Geek.

    What a pity....

 MA> How was your score on the Heraldry Geek test though?

    What Heraldry Geek test?


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: james@wrs.com (James Moore)
Subject: Period woodworking - looking for a reading list
Reply-To: james@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:13:19 GMT

I'm starting to become interested in period woodworking techniques.
Can anyone point me to good articles and/or books to read?  I'm
primarily interesting in small-scale projects, like tourney chests,
candlelanterns, and the like.

-- 
James Moore                            /|\                        james@wrs.com
Wind River Systems                     \|/                  Alameda, California
	 "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half
			  didn't mean anything at all"
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP! name searching.
Date: 8 Jan 93 16:20:19 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost

In article <726450698.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:

> My all-time non-favorite registered period derogatory byname <whew> is 
> "Bloodaxe".

So what's the derogatory part?

Aryk "The Intimidating Administrator" Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 22636SBS@msu.EDU ("Sandy.Straubhaar")
Subject: Naalebinding
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 13:26:00 GMT

kvedjusendingar til rialtofolksins fra brynhildi kormaks dottur.
Good folk, the best naalebinding article I have seen yet is one I have from my
former apprentice, Mistress Birgit av Birka.  (are you out there, birgit?)
It is called "Naalebinding: definition & Description" & is by Egon Hansen of
the Moesgaard Prehistoric Museum in Aarhus (Denmark).  (Same guy who did the
really splendid card weaving book not so long ago: recently deceased,
unfortunatel y).  Has very clear photos of *twelve* different techniques.  I
have yet to try them myself, but expect to soon.  Birgit's citation at the
endof the Xeroxed article says it is from "Textiles in Northern Archaeology /
NESAT III / Textile Symposium  in York, 6-9 May 1987, P. Walton & J.-P. Wild,
eds., London: Archetype Publications, 1990."  If anyone wants it from me, I
can get you a copy. Somewhere else in my office, but alas buried now, is
another article (I can't even remember in what language), that I had from
Thora Freydisardottir from up in Skraeling Althing (Ottawa).  It had pictures
of milk-strainers made from cows' tail hair (yum!)& rugs* naalebound with *the
handles from worn-out toothbru shes* on the 19th-c. North American frontier.
I think it was N orwegian. It, too, had good pictures.  Anybody know this one?
*Rag rugs, that is.

Hope that helps somebody.  Don't forget that knitting more or less as we know
it is documentable in that dubious C entral European Cultural Area we're all
debating so much lately at least since th 1400's I think (that cute French
altarpiece where Mary is knitting on 4 needles, I forget the date); and that
it was had in Egypt in antiquity, although we folks ur Nordrlondum wouldn't
know of it, alas.

med beztu kvedju

brynhildr jarla kormaks dottir
Sandy Straubhaar
1145 Rebecca Rd.
East Lansing MI 48823
(517) 332-6942
22636sbs@msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh garb (again!)
From: Eric_Smith@ksc.nasa.gov (Eric C. Smith)
Date: 12 Jan 93 11:43:10 EST
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Distribution: world
Organization: NASA/KSC

In article <1993Jan11.124243.1@cc.curtin.edu.au>,
lharriesj@cc.curtin.edu.au wrote:
> 
> I enjoy floating around as a 12th century "Welshperson" but am
> finding garb documentation (especially primary sources) a bit thin on the
> ground - it doesn't help to be living in an isolated Antipodean city.  I would
> be most grateful for any suggestions, to this forum or privately.
> 

Ditto!

Being a ninth century welshman, who does just about any period I feel like,
though not at the same time, I have found little real info on "Welsh
Clothing".  I too would appreciate any info provided.

Diolch a da boch,
Maredudd Cymysglyd ap Cynan
From: haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Authenticity Levels a la Bertram
Date: 12 Jan 1993 00:01:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: rust.zso.dec.com


We done Bertram, I like this concept. However, I would like to suggests a
few extensions.

First we need an equivalent set of levels for intangibles such as the 
performing arts. Alternatively we need to recognise that similar levels
apply.

Second, we need to consider gestalts. You specify L4 as the level at which all
parts of a persons ensemble are coherent in terms of both time and place.

I would downgrade to L2 any outfit that included some jarringly modern element.
Like, for example, a landskneckt in sneakers. I would allow is L3 any outfit
built out of period but mismatched elements, such as a musical consort with
members from random periods and culture.

I would reserve L5 for those few who work from the ground up and from the skin
out. That is, every item made from period materials with period tools to
period designs from the same culture and period.

I would like to comment that I believe holding office in the SCA forces the
office holder into L3 if not L2. Award scrolls mentioning the current date
are de facto L2 making court L2.

This supports Bertrams contention that the SCA as a whole is L2. My impression
of William's comments is that he expects L3 as a general rule and would like
the occasional event to be L4. I suspect that the SCA attitude to camping is
one of the reasons why we justify L2 as the norm. I also suspect that the L2
folks cannot distinguish L3 fron L4 which also slows down the transition
between those levels (actually, I doubt that L4 types can identify each other
except when they are from the same time and place). The lack of recognition
also supports the popular view that L5 is reserved for the insane

	Fiacha, who is L2 aspiring to L4
	Aquaterra, AnTir
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Are you a Rialto Geek?
Date: Sun,  3 Jan 93 23:50:50 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Yaakov writes (Hi, Yaakov!):
> 
> Give yourself one point for every time you've seen the following
> thread:
> 6) Same sex consorts
> 7) Selecting monarchs (via tourney or other method)
> 8) Is paganism period
> 9) Is Tarot period
> 10) Peerages (either restructurinbg or archery)
> 11) Non-European personaes
> 12) Pentacles in armory
> 13Rialto badge

Oof!  That section alone puts me well over the limit for being a Rialto 
Geek!  :-)

Come to think of it, at one point, I lost access to the Rialto for about
a year and a half; when I left, the `Is paganism period' debate was raging.
When I returned, I was quite amused to find the same thread (and one of
the participants from the earlier one was still going strong)!

Truly, there is nothing new under the sun...

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    "The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality
    is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes."
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)
Subject: Crown tourneys
Organization: Shire of Glaedenfeld
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 09:58:56 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

There was some discussion of alternative formats for a crown tourney.

I, personally, favour suggestions leading to a battle - at least for
the finals.  For example, two tourneys held at opposite ends of the
Kingdom on one weekend, and then a battle between the two victors'
supporters six weeks later.

However, I wanted to suggest a format that would offend fewer
"traditionalists."

Early in the morning, say, around 7 or 8, open up a field.  The first
fighter to arrive can hold that field against all challengers.  As
numbers warrant it, more fields can be opened as the morning
progresses.  Suppose that, eventually, there will be five fields.

The King and Queen and various high ranking nobles should arrive by
about 8:30 or 9, and sit beneath a canopy from which they can see all
the list fields.  (They should watch for especially deserving
candidates.)

Around 11:30, a herald announces that only one hour remains in the
preliminary round, and that anybody who is not competing for the crown
should excuse themselves from the list as soon as they may.

Finally, at 12:30, the fighting is declared ended, and the names of the
successful champions of the fields are noted.  The assembled nobles
select another champion, and the Consort another.  This creates a small
pool of candidates - one from each field, plus the nobles' choice, and
the Consort's choice - who can fight in some other kind of small
tourney in the afternoon.  (With 6 this can be a round-robin; with 8,
it could be two pools of four having round robins, or a two-field
version of holding the field, or even (yuck!) an elimination tourney.
The final two could hold a battle, if you like, but there won't be
enough time.)

If I recall correctly, there are period precedents for holding a field
against all challengers.  The evil knights in Arthurian romances seemed
to be doing this all the time.

Also, the first three and a half hours of the tourney are open even to
fighters who don't want the crown, so they can fight against that level
of competition.

[Incidentally, binary trees for elimination tournaments are ugly and
unmediaeval, and I have seen list masters having to pack them with
"byes" to make them work (meaning that list masters can't figure them
out).  A simple list of names has exactly the same effect, but with
less mess, and less feeling of inauthenticity (but I have never heard
of this being done in period).  Simply list all the names of the
competitors in a column.  The first two names fight, and are crossed
out.  The winner's name is added to the bottom of the list again.
Continue until there is only one name left in the list.  The same can
be done with a stack of cards.  For a double elimination tourney, add
the losers from the first list to the bottom of a second list - the
only problem is which list to call upon for the next fight.]
--
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:36:15 EST
From: John A. Jordan Ii. <JJ9262A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Eulogy for Axel Bandit

It shall be noted in the Book of Life that Axel the Bandit, intolerant
SCA wannabe with too much time on his hands has decided to unsubscibe
from the Rialto.  He will not be missed.

              Jester of Anglesea
              "If it's not Scottish then it's probably Irish"

From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: heraldry restrictions
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 10:57:36 -0500

Gwenllian Cwmystwyth ferch Morfudd (Beth Appleton of Fidonet 1:124/4229)
writeth:

 GCfM> As a herald, I'd rather see a restriction that
 GCfM> only registered armory be displayed.

As a nonherald, I'd obey that *ONLY* if the heraldry rules are loosened
drastically.  As some have pointed out, we now exclude MANY examples of
perfectly good period heraldry.  If I have a device that is well within the
bounds of taste, period practice, conflict, identifiability, suitability for
myself, clarity, and so forth, but it has some picayune problem that the CoA
objects to, like a patch of blue next to green (color on color), and thus would
get bounced, I'll darn well display it!

(NB: I have not yet designed what I feel to be an adequate device for me, so I
have not been "transgressing"... *yet*.)

 GCfM> Due to various constraints, all SCA names get registered  in the Roman
 GCfM> alphabet, right?  The problem with the heraldry is that our rules have
 GCfM> to create "the Roman alphabet" in order that the system hang together.

I don't find that an accurate description of what has been done.  More like the
CoA has taken the already extant English language and said "Thou shalt not use
aught but words of Latin roots".
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP! name searching.
Date: 4 Jan 93 05:53:29 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <725367689.AA00000@blkcat.UUCP>,
Ulf.Gunnarsson@f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Ulf Gunnarsson) writes:
|>in the armorial sometime at the various anti-social bynames being used
|>in the SCA.

I remember some allusion to Scots borderers for bynames that were both
anti-social and often obscene.  The source was likely The Steel Bonnets,
George MacDonald Fraser (I think, the author of Flashman, but this is
non-fiction).  The only one that sticks in my mind is David No-Good-Priest.
                            
Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	       Legislated morality is the enemy of true morality
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: habura@vccnw13.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Dollar Cost of Awards
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:58:46 GMT

Arnwald writes about the intrinsic costs of getting awards.

My lord, I'll concede your point, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean.
If time is counted as an expense, as are materials, what could a cost-free
award possibly be rewarding? (The only thing I can think of is civility and
a charming personality (rewarded in my Kingdom with the Queen's Order of
Courtesy) and being the Royalty's best buds (rewarded with the Cypher type
awards and with Court Baroncies...but anyone who doesn't think that being
the Royal Best Friend isn't work has never seen a Royal household.))

Not only service awards have their cost primarily measured in time. Singers
and performers must spend countless hours in rehearsal, and fighters must
spend many, many Sundays at fighter practice. Awards are meant to reward the
best that the Society can generate...and that involves contribution of time,
and often money as well. Gentles who don't have the ability or inclination
to contribute such things should always be welcomed in the SCA, but the
welcome need not include awards.

So you know, I'm speakinmg from the perspective of a still-relatively-cash-
poor graduate student; that's why I don't do the expensive arts, like garb
and metalworking. I stick to the cheapies like embroidery and brewing.
However, I enjoy contributing my relatively-ample time to the SCA.

(Understand; the paragraph above is *not* meant to imply that there should
be some sort of standard amount of time/money expended for each award. 
Natural talent comes into play, as does the *effectiveness* of the time 
spent. I can think of some projects of mine that took forever and didn't
make a difference, and others that took relatively little time but were very
beneficial to a lot of people.)

Alison MacDermot

(Oh, hi, Soapy. I thought I'd gotten a bit taller all of a sudden. Here:
take these soapflakes and run along home to Tux now.)
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: water on the brain
Date: 5 Jan 1993 21:30:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <725670050.AA00000@blkcat.UUCP> Henry.Best@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Best) writes:
>    Aelfgar von Echternach said:
> 
>>. . . maybe I can strap two containers for ice water on my helmet ...
> 
>    Hmmm. You know, if you had a nice, impressive heraldic-style crest 
>on your helm, I bet you could have an ice water container in it. ...

>    ... But there is a great, 
>hairy^H^H^H^Hoary precedent for safety and health over authenticity ... 

Which is one reason I would recommend against using *ice* water--ice
water swallowed into a hot, active body can cause nasty cramps.  I don't
know about Ansteorra, but the West Kingdom Chirurgeons and Water-
Bearers have strict rules against using ice water--internally, anyway.

However, if you go carrying this container of ice water on your head while
fighting in sunny Ansteorra, it won't stay icy very long, so I shall
quit worrying....

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: German heraldry 
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 20:24:15 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Pagan wrote:

> Could I have comments from heralds on one of my favorite German lines of
> partition...?  It looks like a kiss-curl or (to me) an upside-down wave
> and koru

>     83 is not an English form ... but a literal translation 
>     of the German blazon of No. 83 would be "gules, a snail reversed 
>     and issuant from the sinister"  (Fox-Davies, p. 62).

I suspect that this is the German division "Schneckenweise" (literally,
"snail-wise").  I don't recall whether we've ever registered that division
under some other blazon, and I can't find anything that looks to be an
example in the armorial.  

BTW: This is a bit abstruse for the general Rialto.  Why don't we move
this thread to the heraldic mailing list?

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Date: 4 Jan 93 06:16:24 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

Aryk knows more about this than I, but there was a group of Elizabethan
musketeer/arqubusiers and gentles with pikes drilling at Pennsic.  

I recall that either the BoD or the Middle Kingdom forbids the discharge
of black powder at events; however the use of a cannon for signalling
the start and end of the battles at Pennsic was sanctioned for several years.

Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	       Legislated morality is the enemy of true morality
From: pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dollar Cost of Awards
Date: 7 Jan 93 07:24:18 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <1ig07pINNrrn@agate.berkeley.edu> dgreen@thor (David Greenebaum) writes:
>Greetings from Bjalfi!

Greetings from Arenwald.
>wording.)  The implication seems to me to be that whoever is fighting/
>serving/artandsciencing is doing so IN ORDER to get an award.  That,
>in my opinion, SHOULD NOT BE.  I see the various activities of the

I agree, but I feel that I picked this implication up from the
original article on Archery, which seemed to me to be saying that
you shouldn't have to spend money to get an award.
I was reacting to that by saying, but if you look at it that way, all
awards in the SCA cost money.

As I have said in other post in this thread, I do things for fun, and
if I stopped to add up the cost I would do them anyway.
Not for the "rewards", but because I like making things.
Not that I wouldn't mind getting a Laurel if you are handing them out :-)

Arenwald von Hagenburg.
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept		ACSNET : pears@latcs1.oz
La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.			"Well here we all are then."
    Ph (03) 479-1144						-ME
From: Longshot@f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: You know you're in the SCA when...
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 22:38:10

A node called Bob Upson coded to node All,
on 13 Dec 92  09:03:00, about You know you're in the SCA when...;

 GdS> You know you're in the SCA when...
 
 GdS> ...you give someone a hug, and when you see the expression on her face,
 GdS> belatedly remember that you're wearing a rather well-stuffed
 GdS> codpiece.
 BU> 
 BU> You have to stuff yours? <SEG>
 BU> 
 BU> You'll be pleased to know we have a foot of snow here.

lo'
  With THAT much cold & snow, I can't see how you WOULDN'T have to stuff yours?
                                                                ~ Aindries


... "If you can't say something nice, come sit by me."   - Duchs. Hywella
 * Origin: Calontir -- We Deliver. (1:291/19.0)
From: 880840m@axe.acadiau.ca (MICHAEL ALEXANDER MCKAY)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:20:28 GMT
Organization: Acadia University

In article <1993Jan8.165632.5594@odin.corp.sgi.com> lindal@goddess.asd.sgi.com (Linda Levy) writes:

>We have several people... that need info ASAP on Pennsic. Can someone send 
>them info directly, maybe just a contact person? (autocrats name & address?)
> Send to janelle@jna.com.au (Janella Heron)

 Send also to 880840m@axe.acadiau.ca (Mike McKay)
 Thank you.