HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vnelson@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Gerald Vernon Nelson)
Subject: Re: Young earth creationist logic NOT!
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 02:16:50 GMT



>lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun) writes:
>>As has been pointed out before,
>>evolutionism boils down to belief. There are no
>>scientific proofs.


Evolution is NOT a belief. 
Evolution does not need man, in order to exist.


This is what seperates science from religion.  Science will be
available to be discovered whether we are here or not.

The properties that guide the interaction between objects will hold true
even if we can't figure them out.  This is science.

Religion is a belief.  Without man, there is no religion.


Vern Nelson.
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:15455 talk.origins:10408
From: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Evolutionism must be defeated!
Date: 30 Aug 92 05:48:50 GMT
Organization: University of Tasmania

In article <Bts2FL.E98@world.std.com>, believer@world.std.com (Frank G Sesco) writes:
> 
> How can I become involved in the fight to remove this dangerous
> Pagan teaching from our schools? The fight against evolutionism
> must be an essential component of the fight for our families and
> this country.
> 
> We must work to rid the world of Communism, Secular Humanism,
> Homosexualism, Evolutionism, and Atheism. All pose a grave threat
> to our faith and therefore our very existance.

Don't bite people, this one HAS to be a joke.

Tim O'Neill
Tasmanian Devil
From: murraysd@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Stephen D Murray)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Brainwashing-info,anyone?
Summary: Request for information
Date: 4 Sep 92 10:05:24 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.




I recently obtained an article which had been posted here about brainwashing.
 I am interested in this subject but have been unable to find any further info
on it. If anyone has any such info (anything at all) I'd be most grateful
if they could mail it to me;(I'm interested in stopping it, not doing it).
I have some info myself, and I'll gladly mail it to anyone who's interested.

 If this isn't the right place to put this request please tell me where to put it ; (e-mail please as usually articles expire before I get to read them).

  My e-mail address is :-

  <murraysd@dcs.gla.ac.uk>

 Thanks very much for any info at all.

 Stephen D Murray.
From: swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Logic and God (was: Young earth creationist logic NOT!)
Date: 2 Sep 92 23:55:12 GMT
Reply-To: swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Sep02.180809.16211@srg.srg.af.mil> dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552) writes:
|
|This is the difference between a soft and a hard science.  Since evolutionary
|biology has good, hard evidence - fossils - it cannot be said to be on the
|same level of abstraction as, say, psychology.  Fossils are *much* easier to
|understand than behavior.  So, evolutionary biology is much more "defensible",
|if you will, than the fields you list above.

All true, but fossils aren't quite as easy to understand as most people
assume.  I just got back from visiting the Denver area, and while I was
there I located to the exposures of the Morrison Formation along a road-cut
near the town of Morrison.  This formation is so fossiliferous that there
were a number of dinosaur fossils left in situ (instead of being excavated).

I did instantly recognize them as fossils, but that was about it.  I could
make no sense of the structure of the bones.  I found them totally un-
identifiable.  Now, I suppose that if they were excavated, so I could
get a full three dimensional view, I would have better luck, but it was
rather humbling to realize how hard it is to identify scrambled bone
bits.

Now, I *was* able to identify the depositional habitat the bones were found
in (sand bars in a river channel), so at least I was not *totally* out to
sea.
-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:15875 talk.origins:10819
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Logic and God (was: Young earth creationist logic NOT!)
From: bsmart@bsmart.TTI.COM (Bob Smart)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:49:03 GMT
Reply-To: bsmart@bsmart.TTI.COM (Bob Smart)
 <1992Aug21.183627.129345@zeus.calpoly.edu> <1992Aug24.151922.5348@acuson.com> <1992Aug25.021757.9487@panix.com>
Organization: Citicorp+TTI

In article <1992Aug27.151959.11603@acuson.com>, lawson@acuson.com (Drew
Lawson) writes:
> Let them worship as they please, but DO let them worship!

Darling, nobody's proposed trying to interfere with anyone's worship. 
The problem is, some folks appear to mistake worship for research.

Research might be an act of worship, by the way--but the reverse is not true.

---------

A fanatic is someone who does what he knows that God would do if God knew the
facts of the case.

Some mailers apparently munge my address; you might have to use
bsmart@bsmart.tti.com -- or if that fails, fall back to
72027.3210@compuserve.com.  Ain't UNIX grand?
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Bush interview as quoted in Alt.Atheism FAQ
From: b14817@asbt01.gedlab.allied.com (JON W. PARKER)
Date: 25 Aug 92 19:23:19 GMT
Distribution: world,local,na
Organization: ASAC, GED, Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Aug23.230515.15321@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, titmas@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Eric Titmas) writes:
> In article <25024@castle.ed.ac.uk>, loki@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:
> |> In article <1992Aug19.201550.15888@newsgate.sps.mot.com > titmas@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Eric Titmas) writes:
> |>  >My religion says that paying taxes is a sin.  Does the First Amendment protect
> |>  >me?  If not:
> |>  >     why not?
> |>  >     Does the same rule apply to the peyote case?
> |> 
> |> 	Paying taxes can be viewd as payment fot the services the
> |> government provides. Non payment can thus be treated as theft of services.
> 
> You can view it that way,  I certainly don't.  When I pay for a service I pay for the 
> free market value of that service.  
> 
> |>  Taking Peyote for religious reasons should have
> |> nothing to do with the state.
> 
> Agreed.  But it's not a First Amendment question.
> 
> |>  >
> |>  >Mr. Giles earlier claimed that the Supreme Court's decision in the peyote case
> |>  >somehow resulted from a mis-statement made by George Bush in 1988 while cam-
> |>  >paigning for President.  How did a mis-statement in extemporaneous remarks
> |>  >cause this ruling?
> |> 
> |> 	Because the off the cuff statements of powertful people are often
> |> treated as commands by the less powerful ("Who will rid me of this
> |> troublesome priest?")
> 
> Quite a stretch.  Also quite silly.

When a CEO tours a plant and make a comment about something, you will find that
those around him do not think it much of a stretch to go to all kinds of
extreems.  I've seen it happen.

> -- 
> Eric Titmas      Motorola ASIC       titmas@chdasic.sps.mot.com               
> 
> It is impossible to take in more money than Congress can spend.  - Thomas Sowell
-- 
JON W. PARKER    Allied-Signal Aerospace, Garrett Engine Division, Phoenix, Az
Aeronet: GED::ASBT01::b14817           Internet: b14817@asbt01.gedlab.allied.com
UUCP: ...!{hrc|mcdphx|asuvax}!gedphx!decnet!asbt01!b14817
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
******STANDARD DISCLAIMER******
He who hesitates, meditates in the horizontal position.  Edmund Parker
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jft@lonex.rl.af.mil (James F. Tims)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Exactly what are the Mensa qualifications?
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:47:56 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: RL

In article <19920818143222SKH4161@MVS.draper.com> SKH4161@MVS.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:
>
>Since Mensa also accepts SAT, ACT, GMAT, MAT and GRE scores for

What are the minimum Mensa-qualifying scores for each of these tests?
IMWTK.

-- 
jft
"And if you're a miner, when you're too tired and old and sick and stupid
to do your job properly, you have to go, whereas just the opposite applies
with the judges."  Beyond the Fringe
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:15740 talk.origins:10639
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Symbolic Interpretation (Re: Young earth creationist logic NOT!)
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:48:55 GMT
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera

In article <1992Aug29.084817.802@klaava.Helsinki.FI>, cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand) writes:
>>>No, not all of science would fall apart -- only biology, genetics,
>>>geology, astrophysics, anthropology, biochemistry, paleontology,
>>>zoology, archaeology, psychology, biophysics, ethnography,
>>>linguistics, and probably a dozen other scientific fields I am
>>>not recalling.
>>
>>And just how would those fall apart?  Oh, I can see paleontology, but
>>what about the others?
>>
>
>Genetics should be obvious, as is zoology and geology. I'd also like 
>to mention [particle] physics.
>
>>Linguistics depends on humans having evolved from primates?
>
>Well, this escapes me, too.

No, but linguistic analyses indicate that human language has been around for
more than the 6000 years that Drew allows us.  I guess when God struck down the
tower of Babel and confounded languages, he made sure that the languages he
created were structured so as to have apparent relationships between them that
simply didn't exist.  Without intending to deceive anybody, of course.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
From: lawson@acuson.com (Drew Lawson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Logic and God (was: Young earth creationist logic NOT!)
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:35:10 GMT
Reply-To: lawson@aldia.UUCP (Drew Lawson)
Distribution: usa
Organization: ACUSON, Mountain View, CA

In article <3657@execu.execu.com> mike@execu.execu.com (Mike McCants) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.151959.11603@acuson.com> lawson@aldia.UUCP (Drew Lawson) writes:
>>A researcher comes to a fork in the road (figuratively speaking), and
>>has to choose between A and B, and chooses A.  If he is asked why he
>>made that choice and responds that his doctrinal learning has told him
>>that B is a dead-end, he is likely to be laughed to scorn.  That is the
>>kind of thing I want removed.
>
>You need a theocracy where heresy is punished by death.  Then there would
>be no laughter.

What color is the sky in your world?

>You advocate that a "researcher" should use his "doctrinal learning"
>to make a choice?

I advicate that a researcher be _allowed_ to use such knowledge.  That
is quite a different matter.

>Where is the "research" in that?

Where is the research in budgets?  However they DO decide much about
research.  Often a choice of direction has to be made before the next
phase of research is done.  There is never enough time/money/whatever
to follow all plausable courses of investigation.

For example, you have to decide whether to plan your next archeological
dig for one place, while you have eight which are interesting based on
available information.

-- 
Drew Lawson                      If you're not part of the solution,
lawson@acuson.com                you're part of the precipitate
From: frankred@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Martin Redington)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:20:08 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK


>I was confirming that the "Ostrich People" do in fact exist. I am
>absolutely certain I have read about them before and/or seen them 
>on a TV show like Nova. They have a genetic "anomaly" in their feet
>that has been transported (over many generations) to about 33% of 
>their village. I can't confirm anything else in the story ;^)

An article about these people appeared in one of the `quality'
sunday papers (Times, or maybe the Express) a few years ago.
It was in the colour supplement that accompanied the paper,
and included several large colour photos, in close up. One
photo that I remember very well was of a group of these people
sitting down barefooted, with a boy in the middle drinking from
a bottle clasped between his toes. I can't give any more details,
but the article was not in any way sensationalist and the photos
were very clear. All of the details that you described were
described similiarly by this article.

 The big toe is enlarged to about 4(?) inches and the little toe 
>is slightly less. The 3 middle toes are absent.

Yep, spot on.

>I realize noone will believe me without a reference, and believe me I 
>have tried to remember where I remember this from. If anyone else 
>remembers this as well, or has a reference to these people,

I don't recall the article mentioning any serious studies, and it is 
possible that none has been done. The converse seems equally likely. You
could probably get the magazine refernce from a microfiche newspaper
index. I'm almost absolutely certain it was the Sunday Times, or
the Sunday Express (they were the papers we used to get), and it
was quite a while ago, but probably no later than 87. 

                                        cheers,
            
                                              Martin.
From: gascan@dcst16.dc (Bill Gascoyne)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Logic and God (was: Young earth creationist logic NOT!)
Date: 2 Sep 92 04:02:32 GMT
Reply-To: gascan@dcst16.dc
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation

In article 11692@acuson.com, lawson@acuson.com (Drew Lawson) writes:
>If I meant "not following my religious beliefs," I would have said
>so.  I meant "ignoring God" -- that is, leaving consideration of God
>out of the system developed.
>
>-- 
>Drew Lawson                      If you're not part of the solution,
>lawson@acuson.com                you're part of the precipitate

From what I have read of Mr. Lawson's postings, I don't think he knows the difference
between "ignoring God" and "not following my religious beliefs."  It is his religious
beliefs that demand that, if God exists, He must have been involved in the creation
of the universe.  Is it not possible to believe in a God who affects only what goes
on between the ears?  This would be a religious belief that science, at any foreseeable
stage of development, could not say anything about.

---
1. Bill Gascoyne
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: puchm@marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au (Silver Shadow)
Subject: Re: Why are we the first?
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 11:23:50 GMT

schnitzi@cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius) writes:

>jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:

>>   There is no reason to assume that humans are the first
>>   species to achieve intelligence,  self-awareness or technology 
>>   on this planet. The 'dinosaurs' had plenty of time for this.
>>   Maybe they caused the great extinction themselves. So much time
>>   has passed that artifacts may be forever unavailible. 

>There's an Extraordinary Claim for ya.  Got any Extraordinary
>Evidence?

>Mark

   It seems to me that if bones of the creatures coudl survive 
   65 million years, then some artifacts should as well.  Unless they
   made everything out of wood, and even then than can fossilise.

   Silver Shadow (Who has been there, and seen it)
--
Silver Shadow == puchm@marsh.cs.curtin.edu.au          | Some of us are poets,
Masters Student at Curtin University of Technology, WA.|  some of us are not!
-------------------------------------------------------+------------------------
I know nothing, so can hold no opinions for myself or others...
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 31 Aug 92 09:22:22 GMT
Followup-To: sci.skeptic

In <64743@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes:
>And another source says that ETs have bread with earth stock

I thought they just eat earth people raw.  Never heard of them making
a soup and eating it with bread.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     So I went to the kitchen, but WALNUT PANELING whup me upside
 |warren@      mah HAID!! (on no, no, no.. Heh, heh)
/ nysernet.org
From: kambic@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Bonus, Iniquus, Celer - Delegitus Duo)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: <None>
Date: 3 Sep 92 11:08:08 EST

In article <1992Sep3.023053.15726@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU>, dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott) writes:
[...]
> I suggest we take some kind of vote on what people expect out of sci.skeptic
> whether they like it immature or want it cleaned up.

I vote for Derek out of sci.skeptic. That's what I expect _out_ of sci.skeptic.

GXKambic
standard disclaimer

Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:15202 talk.origins:10226
From: lawson@acuson.com (Drew Lawson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: Re: the stubborness of creationists
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:05:09 GMT
Reply-To: lawson@aldia.UUCP (Drew Lawson)
Organization: ACUSON, Mountain View, CA

In article <BtJn5y.4Du@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> shallit@graceland.uwaterloo.ca (Jeffrey Shallit) writes:
>
>To me, the most annoying facet of his posts is that he consistently
>repeats his multi-line .sig *twice*.  You'd think someone with
>a "Dr. Phil." degree, as he proudly reminds us with each post, 
>could make an effort to fix this.  I've sent him e-mail three times,
>and not once has he bothered to reply or fixed his .sig.  Pretty lame.
>
>Jeff Shallit

Actually, that is a common problem in some instalations of the nn news
reader, and possibly others.  It may not be his problem but his
administrator's.  In addition, he may be unaware of the cause.
-- 
Drew Lawson                      If you're not part of the solution,
lawson@acuson.com                you're part of the precipitate
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: vnelson@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Gerald Vernon Nelson)
Subject: Re: Evolution and Choice (was: Young earth creationist logic NOT!)
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Distribution: world,local
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:31:22 GMT

In <1992Aug25.145508.9362@acuson.com> lawson@acuson.com (Drew Lawson) writes:


>One of the main reasons for our mortal existence is to have a time to
>live by faith and show that we will choose what is right.  Those
>choices are growing experiences. 

Sentence #1:  We must follow God's words and choose what he wants.
              We MUST do this in order to grow.


>If we are deprived of the opportunity
>to choose, we lose our chance to grow.  In that case, we may as well
>not have been born.

Sentence #2:  If God influences our desicion by any action, 
              we CANNOT grow.  Our life is deemed worthless.


This paragraph is a contradiction:

Choose God freely, OR you may as well not have been born. 

This is not "free will".  This is extortion.  


Vern Nelson
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: tips on genocide
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:18:28 GMT
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.

In article <1992Aug18.203040.202436@uctvax.uct.ac.za> bbbbre01@uctvax.uct.ac.za (Doon) writes:
>Then there was AIDS...
>
>HIV however is pretty useless at genocide when you think about 
>it: hepatitis and TB get more people.  

No it kills many times more people than those combined (remember many TB
deaths are really AIDS deaths).
-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Logic and God
Date: 31 Aug 92 03:53:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Aug30.050709.20594@hfsi.uucp> ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata FSO) writes:
[lots deleted]
>>
>Just curious, but where has it been *observed* for one species to give
>birth to another species?  I'm not talking about variation in pigment
>color either, but truly another species such that the mating between the
>two will not yield fertile offspring.

>>-Tero Sand

  Read the talk.origins FAQ.
-- 
==============================================================================
Carl Fink          carlf@panix.com, C.FINK4(GEnie), or CF427620I@LIUVAX.BITNET
  "Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits"  -  Mark Twain
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: john@anasazi.com (John R. Moore)
Subject: Re: Crop circles: natural or human-made?
Reply-To: john@anasazi.com
Organization: Anasazi Inc, Phoenix AZ USA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 04:30:45 GMT

Keywords: 

In article <1992Aug25.182729.21896@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> arsmith@nyx.cs.du.edu (Alan Smith) writes:
]>>
]>>
]>>       o
]>>
]>>     o O   o
]>>
]>>       o
]>>
]>>in a field... about 5 minutes after takeoff towards the North.
]>
]>Looks like the constellation of Cygnus.
]>
]It's not a crop circle anyway, I see loads of circular plantings whenever
]I fly over the great plains and I'm pretty sure they were plowed that way.

No, this is not a circular planting. All circles were contained within
the same field. The largest appeared to be about 100-200' in diameter,
with the smaller ones maybe 1/2 to 1/3 the diameter. It looked just
like the photos of "real" crop circles I have seen.

I also have seen lots of circular plantings. They look very different.


-- 
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
john@anasazi.com ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
 - - - "It is better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six." - - -
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:14986 talk.origins:10074
From: ryb@microsoft.com (Danger Mouse)
Subject: Voyager(TM) light and sound device
Date: 02 Sep 92 23:32:20 GMT
Organization: World's Greatest Secret Agency

It's a small walkman-like box, with headphones and opaque glasses with two
LEDs 3/4" apart over each eye. There are eighteen programs ranging from 10 to
60 minutes in length; each program is a different sequence of flashing the
LEDs and making a tone at varying frequencies. It appears the faster the
flashing, the faster the tones, and so on. You have your eyes closed so
patterns appear to form on your eyelids from the LED flashes. The headphones
have a stereo mini-plug; from the patterns it seems the link is inside-inside
LEDs & outside- outside LEDs.

The idea is that the combination of audial and visual stimuli can alter your
brain from beta to alpha, theta or delta states -- good for relaxation and/or
subsequent study. There are various other wonderful benefits "users are
reporting" which I'm not buying into -- if it at least works for relaxation
it will be a boon to my wife who often has difficulty doing so. So far, from
the two times she's used it, it appears to work, so we're going to get one and
try it out for 30 days.
 
Has someone else tried Voyager? Is there something to this idea of light and
sound devices? The literature mentions a researcher in the 1940's named Gray
Walter who discovered "photic driving" -- that brainwave activity tends to
fall into lockstep with flickering light, particularly in alpha and theta
range.
 
Any comments would be appreciated.
 
  -- Danger Mouse
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:15359 talk.origins:10339