HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za (Steve Hayes)
Subject: Re: English N. Sg. w/Pl. Agreement
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 17:16:27 GMT
Organization: University of South Africa

In article <C04qL0.GvF@world.std.com> jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:

>>In article <38085@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
>writes:
>
>>>Yes, yes -- the government have decided -- a barbarism no American
>>>would think of uttering.
>
>>It appears that in British English (yes, whatever THAT is) that
>>singular nouns representing organizations, teams, or other multi-
>>person entities are give grammatical plural status, as in
>
>>- the government example above
>>- <football team name> win some cup or other
>>- IBM announce new product
>>- etc.

Not necessarily... there are collective nouns that can be singular or plural 
depending on the context. 

"Spurs win the Cup" could be either, but that's not what I'm thinking of.

"The government has decided" means that the institution as a whole has 
resolved on some course of action.

"The government have decided" implies that the individual members of the 
government were debating a point, and reached agreement.

Do you say "This data is... " or "These data are ..."

surely it depends on whether you are speaking of the collection as a unit, 
or the collection as a collection.

Of course Americans always seem to use "among" when they mean "between"...


Steve Hayes, Department of Missiology & Editorial Department
Univ. of South Africa, P.O. Box 392, Pretoria, 0001 South Africa
Internet: hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za
          steve.hayes@f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
From: briand@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Brian D Diehm)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Something NEW, ferGawdzake!
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:48:37 GMT
Reply-To: briand@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

>>1) Typesetters probably want the double dash as opposed to the single 
>>so they can unambiguously differentiate em dashes from hyphens.
>
>I *know* that.  My question was, why do *copy editors* routinely insist that a
>double hyphen is not the correct symbol for an em dash when it's what the
>typesetters prefer?
>
>>2) Em dashes may have no space on either side, as in your "--", or 
>>they may have narrow spaces, depending on house style. Lack of 
>>standards isn't confined to the field of computers...
>
>I thought that the typesetters added the narrow spaces, and the typescript
>customarily contained no spaces on either side of the double hyphen.  This is
>the rule in every style book I've seen.

In traditional usage, only the typesetters had access to machinery which could
typeset em dashes and narrow spaces.

The rest of us (tm) were restricted to monospaced typewriters. This limitation
has been the origin of many execrable typographic aberrations, such as non-
polarized quotes, double spaces between sentences, the use of underlining,
and double dashes for an em dash surrounded by narrow spaces.

Unfortunately, copy editors were limited to the same tools as "the rest of
us," and so they enforced the standard of typewriter equivalents.

Typesetters had an entire discipline of how to translate typewritten copy (in
standard copy-edit form) into typeset copy.

Nowadays, with everyone having access to typographic tools, people still apply
the typewriter equivalents. In the process, they simply look ignorant. I hope
that eventually word will even get back to the typing teachers. A pessimist
would probably assume that the net result will be a permanent lowering of the
standards of typographic excellence.

Copy editors *should* be aware of the techonolgy, but often aren't. They
*should* be ashamed of themselves, but they probably don't know.

-Brian
in
--
Brian Diehm
Tektronix, Inc.                (503) 627-3437         briand@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM
P.O. Box 500, M/S 19-286
Beaverton, OR   97077
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca ()
Subject: Re: 'Professor' in Ca
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 07:23:11 GMT

On Dec. 22, Graham Toal wrote:

>Could anyone who understands what a Brit means by 'Professor' and who
>knows why we sometimes have misunderstandings about visiting US academics,
>please tell me what 'professor' means in Canada?  Is it closer to the
>British status or the US one?  I'm trying to work out if a Canadian
>I know who insists on putting Professor in his signature (in a group
>of academics who normally eschew titles) is being more than normally
>pretentious or not.

'Professor' means the same in the US and Canada. Most people that
join a university or college faculty, become assistant professor.
The vast majority are eventually promoted to associate p. then
professor. Many use the title 'professor' from the start, and in
common usage, 'professor' means simply university teacher. Most
universities do not have the equivalent of European professorships,
or very few such positions. Those that do, refer to it them
'chairs'.

Werner
From: jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Simplified English
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:43:01 GMT
Organization: Evolving Systems, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Read it again.  Savour it.

tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com (Ty Lee) writes:
: In the Chinese world, there has been a movement to promote the idea
: of simplifying the strokes in writing the Chinese characters. Some
: argues that this will save time in coding the language into computer.

: Do you think it is a worth try to simplify the English by removing
: the definite and/or indefinite articles from the written English?
: If we examine the text in this article, we will find as many as 13
: occurences of the definite articles, the, are used. If I removed them,
: the meaning of the text would not be distorted severly.
: 
: ----
: The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of IBM's.

Inimitable, priceless, perfect.
-- 
Fr. John Woolley (jww@evolving.com); vastly enthusiastic about Augustine,
Austen, babies, Bach, backgammon, baseball, beer, the Bible, Botticelli, Burke,
Chesterton, Dante, Dixieland, hardboiled, Hitchcock, Dr Johnson, Latin, Mozart,
Shakespeare/de Vere, St Teresa, Tolkien, Trollope, Fats Waller, and Washington
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Simplified English
Date: 2 Jan 93 23:31:15 GMT
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <C03yA7.2oIx@austin.ibm.com> tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com (Ty Lee) writes:
# Do you think it is a worth try to simplify the English by removing
# the definite and/or indefinite articles from the written English?
# If we examine the text in this article, we will find as many as 13
# occurences of the definite articles, the, are used. If I removed
# them, the meaning of the text would not be distorted severly.

Don't count on it.

Articles in English have several functions beyond their literal
meanings, like showing the boundaries of noun phrases, making up for
the extreme rigidity of English word order, and allowing us to use the
same words as countable or uncountable (e.g., a lot of experience vs a
lot of experiences).

It's true that not every article carries such information, but if you
had to decide when they were required and when they weren't, you'd
have one more difficulty added to an already very difficult point of
grammar.

David Johns

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney)
Subject: Re: Fisher...uh...person
Date: 03 Jan 93 00:38:02 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Windows/DOS Users Ed Group

In article <1i296iINNsrl@uwm.edu> jgd@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes:
>> sandy@halcyon.com (Sandy Fifer) wonders:
>> 
>> | What's wrong with using fisher, server, sewer, crafter, etc.?  These
>> | words don't sound cumbersome to me.
>
>Also be careful who you call a fisher.  
>
>Fisher: Carnivorous mammal of North America, _martes pennanti_.
>
>        This is a member of the same genus as the marten (_martes
>	americana_), and the sable (_martes zibellina_).

I'd be careful about the selective use of dictionaries and other
reference works.

	fisher n. 1. a fisherman. 2. any animal that catches fish
	for food. 3. a dark-brown or blackish, somewht fox-like
	marten, Martes pennanti, of northern North America. 4. its
	fur. [ME fischer, OE fiscere, See FISH, -ER^1]

		Random House Dictionary of the English Language, First
		Edition

You might want to consider the phrases "Fisher King" and "fisher of
men". Are these references to mustelidae?

-- 
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
	"Well, I'm a little muddled." -- Glinda
From: ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: 'Professor' in Canada - what does it mean?
Date: 29 Dec 92 16:37:41 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

(Bengt G{llmo, L M Ericsson, Stockholm, Sweden) writes:
>ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca writes:

>>In any case, 'professor' clearly has a much broader range of meaning here
>>than in Europe, incuding in some contexts the equivalent of a European
>>lecturer and in others a European 'professor'.

>There is no such thing as a 'European professor' (and, in fact, almost
>no 'European' anything).  The concept of 'professor' in Italy differs 
>at least as much from that in Britain as does the Canadian concept.  
>In Italy, as I understand it, 'professore' means 'teacher', nothing more.  

>As for Sweden, a department, e.g. the dept of Physics, will have a fixed 
>(or very slowly changing) number of professor chairs.  A person is 
>appointed to one of these chairs for life, i.e. until retirement.  
>Unfortunately, some professors will make their contributions in their 
>first 10 years or so, and then just occupy their chairs until retirement.  
>What Americans call assistant or associate professors are not professors 
>in Sweden, except when they translate their titles for an American.  

I shoudn't have generalized so much but this description is what I
meant by 'European professor' and is similar (I believe) to what is
meant by 'professor' in Germany and England (and perhaps France too?).

Werner


>Bengt       
>-- 
>Forwarded-By:
>Bengt Gallmo                        e-mail: lmebgo@kiera.ericsson.se
>Telefonaktiebolaget L M Ericsson    phone:  +46 8 719 1940
>S-126 25 STOCKHOLM                  fax:    +46 8 719 3988
>SWEDEN

>The bad thing about good things is that they usually come to an end.
>The good thing about bad things is that they, also, usually come to an end.
From: brock@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Bradley W. Brock)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: K Street
Date: 30 Dec 1992 20:18:33 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
Reply-To: brock@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Bradley W. Brock)
NNTP-Posting-Host: g210b-1.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <1992Dec29.200007.2635@microsoft.com> frankm@microsoft.com (Frank  
R.A.J. Maloney) writes:
> I think Main Street does qualify. The reference has got to be the
> Sinclair Lewis novel, the location being Gopher Prairie, Minnesota.
> Fictional, yes, but also a powerful symbol, as powerful as any of the
> "real" streets mentioned here.

I think it's the other way around; Lewis used this phrase because it was a  
powerful symbol.  Webster's dates the phrase to 1598.

--
Bradley W. Brock, Department of Mathematics
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology  | "Resist not evil.... Love your
brock@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu       |  enemies."--Jesus of Nazareth
From: meachem@acsu.buffalo.edu (The Meach)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: History
Date: 24 Dec 92 15:36:51 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <1992Dec24.052037.14204@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>In article <Bzqtw6.Ksx@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>
>>Exactly, and feminists want to use "herstory" to make a point. And
>>they want to use "people" instead of "man" to make a point; all of
>>which seems pointless to people like me.
>
>So, in the current context, what does "pointless" mean?
>
> (1)  there is no point.  The word "man" is always clear - only
>      prejudiced people can fail to understand when it means "man"
>      and when it means "man and/or woman".
> (2)  the point isn't valid.  It doesn't matter if "man" is
>      misinterpreted - the wishes of woman to be treated as full
>      partners in humanity are less important than protecting the
>      sacred English language from assault.
> (3)  "people like Mandar" don't get the point.
>
>So, Mandar, which is it, or did I miss a possibility (like "(4) Mandar
>is pulling our leg.")

Or perhaps:

  (5) You don't *really* expect to come to any agreement on this topic with
      someone who is called *Man*dar, do you?

--jm
>       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: chaps
Date: 23 Dec 92 12:59:48 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <baron.92.724957187@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron) writes:
> Can anyone tell me whether the gender neutral use of chaps in the UK
> or elsewhere has met any resistance? 

I suspect it is a lot less widespread than people have been making out.
Speaking as a Public-School-and-Oxbridge educated man it conjures up thoughts
of terribly clubby Public-School-and-Oxbridge educated men with jobs in Daddy's
company and blonde bombshell girlfriends with brains almost as small as their
inamorati's guzzling champagne in fashionable wine bars. (Cultural
stereotyping? Surely not!) I certainly don't hear it used non-gender-
specifically, and I hear it used to men very rarely.
-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   For Sale: Posts in British Government. Suit
wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk    |   outgoing American. Highest bids accepted.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 03:57:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.214750.1@indyvax.iupui.edu> harvey@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
>In article <BzJpFu.AG5@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>, mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>
>>>Excellent suggestion.  Welcome to my kill file.
>>
>> Killing me won't solve all your problems.   ;)
>
>Not kill YOU, but mark your articles as already read, silly.  :-)

Sure - make your newsreader read Mandar's articles for you, eh?  Cruelty
to software, that's what that is!  :-)

(Of course, "software" includes "firmware", except when it doesn't!)

       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
Subject: Re: Something NEW, ferGawdzake!
Organization: Generic American College Kids (G.A.C.K.)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 09:36:08 GMT
Reply-To: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
X-Posted-From: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

briand@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM writes:
>
>Copy editors *should* be aware of the techonolgy, but often aren't. They
>*should* be ashamed of themselves, but they probably don't know.

They should be ashamed of themselves simply for being copy-editors.... ;-)

Seth L. Blumberg          \ Warning: This posting has been determined to cause
slb22@columbia.edu (play)   \ cancer in laboratory animals.  Please make sure
sethb@ctr.columbia.edu (work) \ that no white mice are allowed to read it.  
    > No one I know shares my opinions, least of all Columbia University. <
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bill@mri.com (Bill Weinberg)
Subject: Re: English N. Sg. w/Pl. Agreement
Organization: Microtec Research Inc., Santa Clara, CA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 01:48:10 GMT

In article <38085@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) writes:
>
># And as far as grammaticality goes, apparent violation of number
># agreement is a pretty common thing, particularly in British
># English, where singular collective nouns frequently trigger plural
># agreement.
>
>Yes, yes -- the government have decided -- a barbarism no American
>would think of uttering.
>

It appears that in British English (yes, whatever THAT is) that
singular nouns representing organizations, teams, or other multi-
person entities are give grammatical plural status, as in

- the government example above
- <football team name> win some cup or other
- IBM announce new product
- etc.

As a speaker of my own ideolect of some mixed dialect (Calif. overlaid
on top of a Germantown/Roxborough Philadelphia American/Jewish) dialect,
I do find the singular/plural usage odd, but not "barberous"!

My colleagues at Microtec Research, Ltd., of Basingstoke, England, 
regularly employ this locution with regard to our company, and themselves
have remarked upon how the syntagma really is. Interestingly, when in
California, most of them make an effort to "say it our way". I'm not
sure what I do when in the U.K.


-- 
_____________________________________________________________
William Weinberg                                 bill@mri.com
Product Marketing Manager
Microtec Research,   Inc. Tel 800-950-5554    FAX 408982-8266
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: uhde@ollie.jsc.nasa.gov (Jo Uhde)
Subject: Re: Radical feminists 
Organization: NASA/ Johnson Space Center
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:38:05 GMT

In article <725097282snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz>, hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson) writes:
> 
> 
> In article <1992Dec22.030111.25846@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca writes:
> 
>   > branded a "radical feminist" for preferring "persons" to "men (including

I can't _wait_ to tell my friend Chakravarthi (Chucks) that he is a radical
feminist!  To show that all Indians are not as humor (humour?) impaired as
Mandar is, I will relate the following exchange between Chucks, and another
Indian friend, Vaman:

CHUCKS: Vaman, you must change your name in order to be PC.

VAMAN: Why?  What is wrong with my name?

CHUCKS: Well, your name ends in "man" and that might offend some women.
						  You must change your name to "Vaperson".

VAMAN: Okay, Vaperson it is.

CHUCKS: No Vaperson, that is still not quite right.  Your name still ends in
        "son" which implies the male sex.  You must change your name to
        Vaperchild, then you will be PC.

VAMAN: Vaperchild is fine, but I am still not totally PC.  Vaperchild ends
       in "child".  Am I not now guilty of ageism?
> 
> Time for another thread. Why is it that "persons" seems to be rising 
> in popularity at the expense of "people"? To me it seems much more 
> impersonal, treating people as mere population units.

I would also like to know the reason for the rise of this usage.
In PC "churchspeak", at least in the Episcopal diocese of Newark, NJ,
gay people are _always_ referred to as "gay persons".


DrJo  ***   uhde@ollie.jsc.nasa.gov
-- Not much of a sig, but it _is_ my NASA nickname.
-- Please, apply all of the usually disclaimers.  I don't want to be sent
-- into orbit in the (unpressurized) cargo bay of the Orbiter.

> 
>  ----------------------------------------------
>  Phil Anderson  ***  hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
>  ----------------------------------------------
>        "No-one is equal to anyone else!"
> 
>
From: mckeonj@ul.ie
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Men & maids
Date: 23 Dec 92 09:49:28 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

In article <1992Dec16.190121.4710@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> Yes, foot*men*.  It's that old.
What about handmaidens?
Which reminds me - has the PC movement got to work on maidens yet?
-- 
"If England sleeps, shall Ireland dream?" : Se/an macEoin
-------------------------------------------------------------------
John McKeon, Material Science Dept. University of Limerick, Ireland
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney)
Subject: Re: K Street
Date: 29 Dec 92 20:04:04 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Windows/DOS Users Ed Group

In article <C00J01.7E3@techbook.com> dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>charlie@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Charles Geyer) writes:
>>
>>  Hollywood?
>>
>>Didn't the street give tinseltown its name?  
>
>I've consulted two reference works and both agree that Mrs. Daeida
>Wilcox, wife of the man who laid out Hollywood, came up with the name.
>Neither one mentions anything about the street.
>

Right. However, two L.A. streets that might qualify would be Rodeo
Drive (Beverly Hills) and the Sunset Strip. Both fairly redolent with
meaning at least on the West Coast of the United States.

-- 
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
	"Well, I'm a little muddled." -- Glinda
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Standards
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 03:21:59 GMT

In article <BzqstL.Jrv@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>In article <1231@dsbc.icl.co.uk> jjf@dsbc.icl.co.uk (J J Farrell) writes:
>>
>>I'm glad to say that the correct standard within England is not up
>>for debate since most English people accept that there is no such thing.
>
>Results of a statistical survey, please. Have these people been
>questioned about their  opinion on the Queen's English and BBC
>English ?

Well, surely you have such a statistical survey, don't you?  How
else could you claim to know what most Englishmen (now, am I including
or excluding women? :-) ) think of language?

       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
From: jmp@moscom.com (Joe Palumbos)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Apostrophe's - one more time
Date: 29 Dec 92 18:15:15 GMT
Organization: Moscom Corp., E. Rochester, NY
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.3 beta PL7]

I've seen articles about this, but don't always read it.  It came up
recently, so please excuse
the repitition of a FAQ, but could someone run the rules by me one more
time?  I'm particularly interested in forming the plural and possessive
forms of a name ending in 's'.  


Is This Correct?

	Plural:
	Merry Christmas, from the Jones's.   


	Possessive:
	We'll take the Jones' car.  



Thanks for the help.
-- 
Joe Palumbos	jmp@moscom.com		{rit,tropix,ur-valhalla}!moscom!jmp
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: robin@severian.chi.il.us (Robin Carkhuff)
Subject: Re: Capital "I"
Organization: Just throw everything in the junk drawer
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 23:02:32 GMT

In article <glen.725557020@cs.wisc.edu> glen@slate.cs.wisc.edu (Glen Ecklund) writes:
>jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
>
>>mckay@alcor.concordia.ca (John McKay) writes:
>
>>>It seems a sign of our times that the capital 9th letter of English is
>>>frequently written with a dot upon its head. I have thought of this as
>>>a sign of ignorance. Does anyone know of the history of this affliction?
>
>>...
>>I don't know what you mean by "our times", but schoolchildren were
>>doing this when I was in grade school, almost 50 years ago.
>
>I have never noticed this, growing up in the Midwest (US).  Could it be
>regional?
>-- 
>Every child shall be treated with complete respect.
>
>Glen Ecklund     glen@cs.wisc.edu   (608) 262-1318 Office, 262-1204 Dept. Sec'y
>Department of Computer Sciences        1210 W. Dayton St., Room 3355
>University of Wisconsin, Madison       Madison, Wis. 53706  U.S.A.