HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billd@gdstech.GRUMMAN.COM (Bill D'Camp)
Subject: Re: Geographic split: proto-formation of RFD
Followup-To: misc.jobs.misc
Organization: Grumman Corporation
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 17:20:25 GMT


Personally, I'm opposed to geographic splits for the following
reasons:
	Given the current economy access to all geographic areas is
pretty important.

	How can we be sure all of the geographic groups will reach us?
I'm concerned that distribution of the geographic groups will be
limited to the corresponding region.  My news site is in New York, I
live in San Diego, if the distribution is limited I won't see anything
except usa.east.  I'm also interested in getting a job out of the
country, what will be the distribution for groups outside the US?

I had not previously responded to this thread because I didn't realize
that there was a real possibility of it happening.  By the way, I have
no way to influence my news administrator about the groups subscribed
to, so that is not an option.

--
    _   /|
    \`o_O'
      ( )    Aachk! Phft!
       U
billd@gdstech.grumman.com
-- 
    _   /|
    \`o_O'
      ( )    Aachk! Phft!
       U
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com ("Johnson")
Subject: Good headhunters
Reply-To: johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Wireless Enterprises, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:44:25 GMT

I asked a question in a previous post which many people may have taken as
sarcastically rhetorical, although I didn't intend it as such.  Has anyone
had any good experiences with headhunters?  Any glowing reports or
recommendations?  I'm interested here in views from clients or employers
(please specify which you are), not ads from headhunters. :-)
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  "Johnson"                              | "                               " |
|  johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com |               -- Marcel Marceau   |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Disclaimer:  It's just my Tourette's Syndrome acting up again.             |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net (Orville R. Weyrich)
Subject: Re: Why do Americans get so little vacation time?
Reply-To: uunet.uu.net!weyrich!orville
Organization: Weyrich Computer Consulting
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 13:55:53 GMT

In article <BvnqGo.6yL@news.larc.nasa.gov> jka@windshear.larc.nasa.gov (J. Keith Alston) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.151211.18487@weyrich.UUCP>, orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net (Orville R. Weyrich) writes:
>|> 
>|> Why do you think that only Union workers can negotiate? Everyone has the right
>|> to "walk". The interesting thing is that companies that are most hurt by key 
>|> people "walking" are also those that are most hurt by key people taking 
>|> "family leave" at irregular and unpredictable intervals.
>|> 
>
> Are you equating "walking" with negotiation? Walking out the door isn't
> negotiating anything, its giving up. What do non-union employees have to
> negotiate with?

What is different between a disgruntled employee walking out the door with
valuable training, experience, and expertise and a union strike?

In both cases, part of the bargining position of the employee[s] is that the
employer will suffer if the employees become sufficiently disgruntled to 
stop working.

The negotiation, however, should take place in an atmosphere of "I understand
your needs, and here is how I propose to meet your needs and mine as well."

If you simply demand more, without giving any more, then your only alternative
is the open door. Except that unions use violence to prevent others from
walking back through the door that they just walked out of. I have no respect
for those who resort to such intimidation. I have no sympathy for unemployed
union workers who successfully kept industrious Americans from taking their
jobs through such intimidation, but who lost out when their companies folded
under pressure from foreign competition.

So, to turn your question around, what do union workers have to negotiate 
with, in the long run? Doesn't their short-term success mean failure in the
long-term?

orville

--------------------------------------   **************************************
Orville R. Weyrich, Jr.                        Weyrich Computer Consulting
Certified Data Processor                     POB 5782, Scottsdale, AZ 85261
Certified Systems Professional                   Voice: (602) 391-0821
Certified Computer Programmer            Internet: orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net
--------------------------------------   **************************************
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net (Orville R. Weyrich)
Subject: Re: Maternity leaves in civilized countries
Reply-To: uunet.uu.net!weyrich!orville
Organization: Weyrich Computer Consulting
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 22:00:35 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.221225.29128@morrow.stanford.edu> BL.JYC@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jon Corelis) writes:
>   Here are some selected examples of legally mandated maternity leaves
>in various industrially advanced countries.  Except where noted they
>apply only to mothers.  Further details are available in the reference

If they apply only to mothers, then they are Politikally InKorreckt.

>cited, so don't post a followup demanding, "Well, do these policies blah
>blah blah...?":  you can go to the library and look it up youreslf.  The
>"Salary" column indicates the salary which a worker on such leaves
>receives as a percentage of the worker's previous wage.  In most cases
>this salary benefit is capped at the maximum wage covered by the
>country's social insurance.  I don't know how this maximum covered wage

So 60 to 100% is probably highly misleading except for the lowest tier of 
workers.

>compares to the average wage in the various countries; perhaps some
>other netters can tell us.  These figures were published in 1983, but I
>believe the situation in most countries hasn't changed drastically since
>then.

The most important thing that the figures don't say is whether the countries
in question have trade and budget deficts or not. If they do have deficits,
they are sitting on a time bomb. If they don't have deficits, what other
fringe benefit or social service did they cut, or what tax did they raise?


orville

--------------------------------------   **************************************
Orville R. Weyrich, Jr.                        Weyrich Computer Consulting
Certified Data Processor                     POB 5782, Scottsdale, AZ 85261
Certified Systems Professional                   Voice: (602) 391-0821
Certified Computer Programmer            Internet: orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net
--------------------------------------   **************************************
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: wiley@cactus.org (Mark S. Wiley)
Subject: Re: software QA: what is it?
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Distribution: misc
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 16:23:32 GMT

In article <sturges-250992122217@158.185.20.249> sturges@master.lds-az.loral.com (Jim Sturges) writes:
>In article <1992Sep25.140646.24879@cactus.org>, wiley@cactus.org (Mark S.
>Wiley) wrote:
>> 
	<-: Much deleted to save precious net bandwidth :->
>
>
>> The career problems I mentioned are real, but to do the job right is a
>> real challange, and that's the fun part.
>       ^^^^^^^^^
>            ^
>
>You can *tell* this guy is SQA vice QA! :)) The QA guys would not have been
>able to use 2-syllable words....., much less spell them! [gratuitous
>micro-flame]

Jim, many thanks for the gift of fire, the next time I need a cup of
coffee I'll use it :-).  What's worse, it I pronounce it the way I spell
it. I also say warsh, but I know that while the 'r' isn't silent, it's
invisible :-)
>
>
>
>> My opinions are my opinions, in my opinion.
>
>but valuable and worth reading, Mark.
>

Why thank you (Blush, blush).

Anyway, as we say in SQA, "I love the smell of a crash in the morning,
it smells like VICTORY".

BTW, as long as I am here, I'll mention that I am currently available,
so if you are looking for a few good men, maybe I am one of them :-).

Keep em flying.
-- 
Mark S. Wiley
mark.wiley@cactus.org
My opinions are my opinions, in my opinion.
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: zaphod@madnix.uucp (Ron Bean)
Subject: Re: what's a nice place? Places in the US
Keywords: job, place, high-tech
Organization: ARP Software
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 00:23:32 GMT

mike@isgtec.com (Mike Sellers) writes:
 
>Other area I'd consider are Madison Wisconsin, and perhaps the twin cities
>of Minnesota (though again, these are flat and have long hard winters).
                                       ^^^^
   I don't know about the twin cities, but Wisconsin is anything
but flat, due to the glacier that stopped here about a million
years ago. I've driven all over the midwest, and I'm always
struck by the change in terrain when I get back to Wisconsin.
Nothing to compare with the mountains out west, but a welcome
change from the great plains.
 
   The winters are definitely too long here-- you spend half your
life hibernating, and the other half getting ready for the next
winter. But we also manage to escape the worst of the problems
that plague other parts of the country (like the S&L crisis), and
we have less of a boom-and-bust economy.
 
   Personally, I'd like to live in the Pacific Northwest, but I'm
afraid that it's about to become the next California.
 
 
 
P.S. Interesting "Path:" line on your article:
 
>...!uunet.ca!geac!censor!isgtec!mike
                   ^^^^^^
Is this what the name implies???
 
==================
zaphod@madnix.UUCP (Ron Bean)
uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!zaphod
From: paradis@sousa.ltn.dec.com (Jim Paradis)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: The current economic situation -- what to call it?
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:57:23 GMT
Reply-To: paradis@sousa.enet.dec.com (Jim Paradis)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


wlee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee) writes:
>I'd call it a severe labor surplus, structural type.

You know, even though I was the one who took Phil to task, I really don't
care *what* you call it, as long as we acknowledge that there is cause for
concern.

My big problem with Phil's original post that "we are not in a recession"
was that many folks would follow this up with "...so there's nothing to
worry about."  And business would continue, as usual, with no regard for
those who have yet to make up the losses of the recession, or those who
can't even claw up to the bottom rung of the economic ladder.

Whether the economy is growing or shrinking is almost irrelevant.  If it's
not big enough to take care of *everybody*, then it's gotta grow some more
before we're out of the woods...

--
Jim Paradis (paradis@tallis.enet.dec.com) 
Working for DEC, speaking for myself.
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Working Temporarily in Canada
Date: 27 Sep 92 21:49:24 GMT
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Distribution: na
Organization: The Bates Motel

"jeff woods" <jeff.woods@canrem.com> writes:
>
>GL>Doesn't that depend on whether you are trying to get the Canadian
>GL>equivalent of an H-1 (what's our name for that?) or going to the
>GL>Landed Immigrant (Permanent Resident) immigration track, or if you
>GL>are an American Citizen getting on the Canadian equivalent of a TC-1
>GL>work permit issued under the US-Canada Free Trade Agreement terms?
>
>Under "Free Trade" (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) there are only 
>very few things an American can do in Canada.   Marketing, sales (but
>emphatically not the delivery of products), etc, for limited periods 
>(no longer than 30 days, I believe) are allowable.
>
>Suffice to say, Canada is being VERY picky about who they let in for
>long-term employment, even if only "temporary".   I only wish it was
>as easy as you say, as it took six months from the job offer to my 
>being able to enter Canada and be placed on the payroll.

From what you have described, you are submitting yourself for the
equivalent of the American H-1 process which requires a Labor
Certification and numerous other hoops to jump through.

The TC-1 (and Canadian equivalent) are one year, renewable visas
without the need for sponsorship other than a job offer, for Canadian
and American citizens in each others' countries, and comprises an
active list of 40 professions (including most engineering disciplines
as well as "Computer systems analyst" which would be used to cover
most CS positions -- yes, I realize the differences, it's the treaty
not me!).  I'd advise contacting the U.S. Consulate for their "United
States-Canada Free Trade Agreement Means Business" brochure (mine
comes from the Vancouver office) that lists the TC-1, then go to
Immigration Canada and find out what the equivalent is up there.
If the treaty terms are not exactly reciprocal, then this is a big
surprise ...

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare				
> gld@cunixB.cc.columbia.EDU		Oct 26/92: Just say "OUI!"
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			(Let's worry about the economy!)
From: sturges@master.lds-az.loral.com (Jim Sturges)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Resumes on Computers (ROC)
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:48:57 GMT
Followup-To: misc.jobs.misc
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona

In article <9210011307.ad25140@VGR.BRL.MIL>, bstring@mainz-emh2.army.mil
(BOB STRINGFIELD) wrote:
[.....]
> 'Resumes on Computers' (ROC) is an innovative way to list your
> qualifications with more than 2400 employers located throughout
> North America.  ROC was created by Curtis Development Company
> as a way to electronically pool large numbers of fresh resumes.  
> Regardless of what you do or whether you currently have a job,
> ROC will render the full text of your resume 'searchable'
> by computer for  a six month period'.
> 
> I ran it and it is very user friendly.  


[.....]

and so the answer to the question "And How did it work, BOB?" is : ??????



*************************************************************************

Yesterday I was a dog.  Today I'm a dog.  Tomorrow I'll probably still
be a dog. Sigh!  There's so little hope for advancement.
                -- Snoopy

 ************************************************************************

Jim Sturges                             MS 8612
602 925-7204                            Loral Defense Systems -- Arizona
602 925-6988 Fax                        P.O. Box 85
sturges@master.lds-az.loral.com         1300 S. Litchfield Rd.
CIS: 72470,3117                         Goodyear-Avondale, AZ  85338
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: peterd@sensorite.dev.cdx.mot.com (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: Why do Americans get so little vacation time?
Organization: Motorola Codex, Canton, Massachusetts
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:52:35 GMT

betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry) writes:

>George Bush's rationale for vetoing family leave is that workers
>should collectively bargain for it as part of their contracts.  
>This leaves most non-unionized workers (the bulk of the workforce) 
>out in the cold.

On one hand, Bush is saying that family leave should only be provided
as part of collective bargaining agreements. On the other hand, Bush 
and the Republican party hold that workers shouldn't be represented
by unions in the first place. The obvious conclusion is that (a) Bush
believes that workers should not get family leave, and (b) he is too
chicken to say it outright.

				Peter Desnoyers
--
From: bpk@evolving.com (Brad Knotwell)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Information on relocation
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:29:04 GMT
Organization: Evolving Systems, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

My girlfriend is relocating to Denver (from the Bay Area) in January.
I would appreciate suggestions on the following:


	1)  Prior planning for the job-search. . .what can she do prior
	    to January.

	2)  Easiest way to move all her belongings (considering the fact that
	    she has very little in the way of furniture).

Please respond via email.  Thanks in advance.


 

That which does not kill us. . .will only make us stronger.

                                               -UNKNOWN

Brad Knotwell 				bpk@evolving.com
Evolving Systems, Inc.			   	
Denver, CO


-- 
That which does not kill us. . .will only make us stronger.

                                               -UNKNOWN
From: greg@octopus.dpsi.com (Gregory R. Travis)
Subject: Re: Bargaining for vacation time?
Organization: Data Parallel Systems, Inc
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:29:15 GMT

pstephan@mcs.kent.edu (Paul H. Stephan) writes:

>Does anyone have any experience on whether or not it is possible to
>bargain for how long until additional vacation time is earned.  Most
>company's that I'm familiar with start with 2 weeks then add 1 week
>after 5 years.  When changing jobs this can be rather discouraging
>if you are close to or beyond the 5 years.

Screw them.  It's been 200 years since the last revolution in this
country and it's about time for another one.

How much is your life worth?

greg
--
Gregory Reed Travis				D  P  S  I
Data Parallel Systems Incorporated   greg@dpsi.com (For MX mailers only!)
Bloomington, IN			     greg@indiana.edu (For the others)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: no-compete clause in employer contract
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:51:58 GMT

In article 5w0JRB3w165w@quest.UUCP, kdq@quest.UUCP (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>bouma@cs.purdue.EDU (William J. Bouma) writes:
>> 
>> Tell me more about these "no-compete" clauses.  That sounds scary to me.
>> I assume it says something like that one cannot work in the same field
>> for X years after terminating his employment.
>
>It basically means that you won't work for a direct competitor, or start a
>competing company.  These are usually reserved for very senior people.  For
>example, if you worked at a place that made laser printers, and left to go
>to a place that does high-speed chain printers, there would probably be no
>perceived competition.

Then again, there probably isn't much relationship between the software to
drive a laser printer and that needed to drive a chain printer.

The courts have said that it is against public policy to compel an employee
to sign a contract with a no-compete clause where the effect of that clause
is to prevent the person from working within his occupation.  The courts
rule these clauses invalid and unenforcable.  But companies do frequently
require them (often in the semiconductor industry) and use the threat of 
a law suit to attempt prevent you from working for a different company in the
same field.  You can win a malicious prosecution suit, but it takes time and
money.

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: Master & Patron Paradigm: references sought
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date:  6 Oct 1992 15:39 EST  

I read about the above paradigm, developed by a fellow named Weimer
formerly from IBM, in the book _Future Edge_ by Joel Barker.  The
paradigm is designed as an alternative concept to that of service
provider and customer.  Can anyone provide references to this subject?
Please respond via e-mail, for I am not a regular participant.  I will
summarize, though, if I get any responses.

RG
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: boaz@concerto.lcs.mit.edu (Boaz Ben-Zvi)
Subject: Re: salary for new graduates
Reply-To: boaz@lcs.mit.edu
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:21:41 GMT

In article <BvCLHr.9yE@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> gregory j farrar <gfarrar@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
|> What range of salary could a person who has just graduated with a 4 year 
|> computer science degree expect to be offered ??

Here are the figures from the MIT Career office, based on 67 reports from
people in the class that graduated last term:

    LOW: 30K    MEDIAN: 36K    MEAN: 36.8K    HIGH: 46K

-- Boaz

===============================================================================
  _              _            __         __ ___  _ _   __ ___    ____      ___
 /_) _  _  __   /_) _   __ __ _/    o     |   |   \| __ |   |     /    \ |   |
/__)(_)(_|__/  /__)(_'_/ /   /__\/_(        __|_ __\    | __|_     \  __\| __|_
          __)                                           |                      
===============================================================================
 Boaz Ben-Zvi <boaz@crl.dec.com>           Home: (617) 494-1279  <boaz@mit.edu>
===============================================================================
From: kdq@quest.UUCP (Kevin D. Quitt)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Classified Ads.
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 18:29:16 PDT
Reply-To: srhqla!quest!kdq
Organization: Job quest  (805) 251-8210,  So Cal: (800) 400-8210

In regards to people's comment about using the classifieds instead of
the service I provide, I hereby offer another service:

For $20, I will have four weeks worth of the Sunday LA Times delivered
to your address, anywhere in the continental US.  Of course, you can
also call them yourself and have them do it for $16.75...

 _
Kevin D. Quitt                                 Job Quest (805) 251-8210
srhqla!quest!kdq                               Learn How to Get a Job in SoCal

                96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: dons@is.ussprint.com (Don Stadler)
Subject: Re: Cash Prizes for Ideas on Saving U.S. Jobs
Organization: US Sprint-IS
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 00:39:32 GMT


> A very bad idea.  If you want to see the effects of such an approach, just
> look at the US steel industry.
 
> The reality was that as soon as the pressure was off the industry collected
> larger profits for a while than it otherwise would have and let
> its capital equipment go to hell.  Today, the US steel industry
> is in such a sorry state that we can't even seriously contemplate
> eliminating the protection, since the industry would collapse immediately
> in the face of more capable foreigners.

True, but dated. Today the U.S. Steel industry is the most efficient in the
industrialized world measured by man hours per ton! Even behemoths like
USX (US Steel) and Bethlehem are competitive by international standards.

The interesting thing is why this happened. It has been claimed as a triumph
of the protectionist policy, but the real reason is competition. Smaller
companies in the US pioneered the use of "Mini-Mills" using advanced 
technology to recycle steel into new products with yields of up to .9
man hours per ton. This compares with 5.3 man hours per ton for USX,
5.7 man hours per ton in Japan, and 5.9 man hours per ton in Germany!

I suggest you look into the story of Nucor, a Fortune 500 steel company based
in an old strip mall in Charlotte, NC. Nucor and it's compatriots have been
making things hot for the giants for a decade now, producing at a price
no-one else can touch. I'll bet they are making money in this recession!
This is what forced the behemoths to modernize.

The moral is that protectionism isn't good, but if you get hot competition
domestically you can survive it!

Don Stadler
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc