HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: $5000 Shopping Spree
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:51:41 GMT


Blair Houghton writes:
##If you had $5000 to spend on firearms and/or accessories, what would
##you buy?
#
#A congressman.


But what would you spend the rest of it on? :)



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
From: pnr0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PAUL N. RITTER)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:58:08 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1992Jul30.220112.28738@athena.mit.edu>, sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Ri
fleman) writes:
#In article <22595@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> burens@4ccvw101.scg.hac.com (Mark Burens
) writes:
##
##
##I was just curious what some of the best man-stoppers are.
##Specifically, what calibers, grain of bullet per caliber,
##type of bullet.
#
#Federal 125-gr JHP in 357 Magnum.
#
#Stops with one shot 97% according to Evan Marshal.
#
   Federal 158 gr in 357 mag. 1 stop shot====>96% according to G&A
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: cost of semi-auto .22LR rifles?
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:29:47 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

In article <AA00159.9207221744.peepy@uk.ac.newcastle> J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer) writes:
#So we're having to look for a
#self-loading rifle (semi-auto) that canbe fired left-handed.  This very much
#depends on where the empties arethrown, and I guess that varies from one
#rifle to another even withina given make/model?  (Coments invited.)

Browning make a semi-auto .22 that might fit the bill.  It's a take-down (but
you don't *have* to take it down), 11 rounds in magazine (the which is inside
the stock, not removable).  Ejects empties straight down.

It was another one of John M. Browning's patents from the 1920's.

#end heavy.  But we also looked ata Ruger self-loading rifle (can't remember
#the model number, DSMR?,Ranch rifle?, built like a minature Mini-14) feels
#quite reasonable,and the it looks suitable for the job - rabbit shooting.

In .22LR?  Sounds like the 10/22 over here.  They're enormously popular
as beginners rifles.  They can be fairly accurate with some work.

Out here, I've seen the base model new for, what, $110?

#We werequoted L205 for this rifle, but what does it cost in the
#States?Anyone know?  Any other makes/models of self loading .22LRs
#torecommend?  BTW, he's bought a Leupold 4x Compact RF scope to go on
#therifle when he finally gets it (sensible man).

The Browning mentioned above has a special mount for using a scope.

The mount stays on the barrel part if the gun is taken down.

Nearly got the Browning 'cause one daughter shoots lefty while the
other one doesn't.  Compromised by getting a falling block .45-70
and a Chinese Brno-copy .22LR bolt action.  Both girls are now
happy, as is 9-year-old brother.  I'm doing OK, too.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: British gun laws circa 1960
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:33:28 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

##2) might this an American cartridge such as .45 Colt or .45 ACP?  .45
##   seems a bit big for an old British revolver.

More likely the .455 Webley caliber - an old English caliber (though 
not as powerful as today's big bores).

#
#Can't answer this one.
#
#
#--Jonathan
From: megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .17 Rem
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:37:05 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

#>>>> On 23 Jul 92 00:42:10 GMT, jim.wray@cutting.hou.tx.us (Jim Wray) said:

Jim> I'm getting interested in .17 Rem, both from target shooting and varmit
Jim> shooting perspectives. Does anybody out there in gun-net-land have any
Jim> first hand experience with this caliber that they would like to share?
Jim> How about strong opinions based on personal prejudices? I'm interested
Jim> in how you used this caliber, what kinds of loads were used, bore
Jim> fouling/cleaning considerations, ranges shots were taken and all that
Jim> good stuff. Any replies greatly appreciated.....


I bought a Rem .17 700BDL advertised in The Gun List as "New in Box".
Seemed to be, until I started to shoot it.  25% or more of the rounds
fired would tumble and end up from 1 to 3 feet down and to the right
of the point of aim.  Finally figured out this was a lemon and sent it
to Remington for service.  They determined the barrel was dead and
replaced both barrel and action (they will not give you just a barrel
fitted to your old action) for $155.  Got it back and it was shooting
just fine.

Just last week I went out to the range and decided to see how it was
at 200 yards.  I had always shot at 100 yards before.  I had been
shooting about 3/4" groups at 100 yards.  The first two shots I took
at 200 were used to zero in for the range.  The next three shots ended
up in a group which could be covered by a dime.

My load was a 25gr. Berger match bullet, flat base, hollow point (they
now also make 20 gr. and 30 gr. but I have not tried them) with CCI450
magnum small rifle primer and 22.8 gr. of WW748.  This load is what a
friend uses, and I have not yet had the time to dial it in for my
particular gun.  The bullet was seated so that the overall length
matched a factory round.  Again, I have not had time to match the OAL
to my gun.  I still have lots of dialing in to do, but at this point,
I could probably go out and hit anything I wanted at up to 300 yards.

Regarding fouling.  A .17 is much more prone to gunk up than any other
caliber, however, it does not seem to affect mine at all.  Being a
benchrest shooter, I am used to cleaning after every 5 shots.  Based
on my friend's advice of "just shoot it", I have not been cleaning the
.17 until the end of the day and have not noticed any problems.

I am not a hunter or plinker, merely a target shooter, so I cannot
give you any other experiences than at the range.  BTW, the loads
above chrono'ed in at about 3200fps.

-- 
Dion Hollenbeck       UUCP: {uunet, ucsd, sun}!megatek!hollen
                      INTERNET:            hollen@megatek.com
Megatek Corporation  9645 Scranton Rd.  San Diego, Ca.  92121
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sig P220 vs. Glock 21
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:33:20 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <fP4ayK2@quack.sac.ca.us> bweaver@quack.sac.ca.us (Brian Weaver) writes:
#  Well, since the Glock is never cocked until you pull the trigger, 
#  it does not need a decocker lever. This is fine by me since I like
#  simplicity and reliability.

I like Glocks, but you have to recognize that they can be a pain, since once
a round is chambered you have to either shoot it or else pull the magazine
and rack the slide to "safe" the weapon against a simple trigger pull.
For some, this is an important negative characteristic of the design.
(Doesn't matter for my application, though.)
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Best defense: Machine gun or shotgun?
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:50:31 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

# In my home, I'd want at least 4 or 5 weapons including short shotgun, 
# a good medium to large game rifle, a high capacity .22 rifle, several
# handguns, and, if possible, a sub-machine gun.  
# 
# If I had to leave, I'd want to have two handguns on me (preferably a
# high capacity auto and a revolver) and a shotgun.  (Short range
# defense only -- if I'm out and about I'll run first / fight as
# a last resort: if I'm home, I'll fight ASAP [I'm talking riots and/or
# general anarchy here]).
#

Why not 2 high capacity autos (or 3 if you can hide 'em) or 2
revolvers that use the same ammo?  (Oh those would be
self-loaders that use the same magazines)  

I have the impression that it wasn't a good idea to wander about
LA with a shotgun during the riots. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Books...
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:54:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Having read Bill Wilson's "The Combat Auto," I thought it was okay reading.
It had some useful information in it, and I'm more than glad I bought it, but
I think a lot of what was said was somewhat obvious.  Maybe it's just that
if you keep up with IPSC shooting at all, most of these things have been noted.
I'm not sure.  The only other thing that was kinda bothersome was Wilson
seemed to be constantly touting his products as being the best - always 
patting himself on the back.  True it may be, but it definitely got old.

Another book I got, The Colt .45 Automatic - A Shop Manual, seems to be loaded
with an incredible amount of technical information, which is exactly what I was
looking for.  Whereas Wilson's book was a lot of I feel this, or the trend is
that, Jerry Kuhnhausen's shop manual is very specific... 

Just my thoughts...

-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Unusual GLOCK ejection method
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:00:28 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <=bnmcjd.damiel@netcom.com>, damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos) writes:
#In <9207281435.AA24282@stortek.com> vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak) writes:
##I asked him about it, and he said that the GLOCKs are the only
##gun he knows of, which will eject through the magazine well.
##I forgot to ask if the cases were hot on the hand coming out.
##This whole proceedure seemed slightly dangerous. If a case ever
##ruptured all of the energy, and some of the brass could be directed
##down the mag well, and into his hand. 
#
##Any comments?
#
#never seen this before - off-handed speculation would be that the
#ejector had been removed/disabled in some way...



	Every glock I've tried it with has operated in this way.
	My Omega will do the same thing. . . 
-Chris L
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* Remember, only mere mortals need sleep!
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Glass bedding orthodoxy
Date: 23 Jul 92 00:42:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul22.205121.918
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

I recently finished glass bedding my Remington Model 7 in .223
with hopes of producing a more portable coyote rifle than my
PSS.  In the process, I found myself wondering why the "how-to"
articles on glass bedding always admonish against recoil lug
contact except on the rear face; no contact is supposed to 
occur between the recoil lug and the sides, bottom, or front
of the mortise.  I have two problems with the "back-of-the-
lug-only" concept.  First, what difference could it make if
the recoil lug were completely fixed on all sides by bedding
compound?  I actually have a rifle bedded this way (by
someone else) and it shoots just fine (sub-0.5 MOA).  Second,
on a cylindrical action like the Rem, what stops the action
from rotating due to torque produced upon firing?  The tang
area is pretty far away and not really shaped well to resist
this torque.  If the sides of the lug were bedded, it would be
the moral equivalent of a flat-bottom action, as far as I
can tell.

I guess the best way to solve the problem is benchrest-style --
leave off the release agent and glue the action into the stock.
My only glue-in is by far the most accurate rifle I've ever had,
but on a factory action it's hard to get to the trigger pins
on a glue-in.  Comments/answers?

Toby Bradshaw
From: barry@godzilla.quotron.com (Barry Geipel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: MY DCM PURCHASE ORDER FINALLY ARRIVED!
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:37:17 GMT
Organization: Quotron Systems, Inc.

After a 9 month wait, my DCM purchase order finally arrived. According
to the enclosed letter, the rifle will arrive four months after
recept of the $165.00 fees. That would put the total wait for a DCM
Garand at 13 months. I will post more info when it arrives..

-- 
====================================================
Barry L. Geipel         || Lacking a muse, my mauser
barry@quotron.com       ||  must be my  thunderbolt
====================================================
From: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Looking for Info on .380's and dealers
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:10:10 GMT


|> Gun Tests recently did a .380 evaluation, but only covered a few models.
|> There seems to be a lot more out there, and I'd like to hear people talk
|> about their .380 experience, especially with, but not limited to, any of
|> the following models: Baretta 84F, Sig P230, Taurus PT58, Walther PPK or
|> PPK/S, Colt Gov't/Mustang, Makarov, and AMT.

I own a SIG P-230 Stainless since the beginning of May 92. Although I carry
it quite a lot, I have not shot it a lot. I can simply say that it is a very
agreable gun to carry, even without a holster. It is concealed quite easily
and it is light enough so that you may completely forget that you carrry it.

I have compared it with a PPK and a Beretta 84F in an indoor range. The only
two advantages of the PPK is that it is made of real steel (The P-230 is in
alloy) and that it is a bit smaller. The P-230 is however lighter, it has a
MUCH better grips, its trigger is better than the one of the PPK and its
decocker fits better with my hands than the one of the PPK. It shoots also
better, probably because of its better grips. On every aspect, I perfer my
P-230 to the Beretta. IMHO, the main inconvenient of the 84/85F is that it is
as big as a compact parabellum like the KP P7, so it is useless.

-- 
Emmanuel Baechler.                        | Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle   | e-mail: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne  |     or: baechler@liasun6.epfl.ch
MA-Ecublens                               | Standard Disclaimer
CH-1015 Lausanne	Switzerland

Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
From: bartb@hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbitt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Chamfering Case Mouths
Date: 23 Jul 92 00:42:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpfcmgw.9207230034.AA11585

Chamfering rifle case mouths is a common practice after trimming the
case to length.  A traditional process is to use a chamfering tool that
has an included angle of about 60 degrees.  It's turned in the case
mouth to debur the ridge left by the case trimmer.  Chamfering is done
either before or after sizing the case.

I've noted that in looking at the case mouth after the bullet is seated,
that most of the time, some of the bullet jacket has been scraped off and
is piled up at the case mouth.  This is easily seen with a magnifying 
glass.  When I first noted this many years ago, I thought that removing
jacket material, especially nonuniformly all the way around, would
unbalance the bullet.  Surely, there must be a better way.

Pulling bullets from traditionally chamfered cases told the rest of the
story.  Each bullet was scratched lengthwise from the base to where the
case mouth was on the loaded round.  Some bullets were more scratched than
others.  As fast as those bullets spin, I knew their unbalance would 
not let them shoot too well.  Even using a bore brush to clean up the
edge of chamfered cases did not improve them any significant amount.

My reasoning was to have the angle of the chamfer much less.  That would
not present so much of a `cutting edge' and might reduce the amount of
jacket shaving.  Then I remembered a tool totally unrelated to handloading
operations; an easy-out.  I took a No. 5 easy-out and looked at its edges
that normally are used to fit in a drilled-out screw and remove it.  Those
edges were pretty rough, so I chucked it in an electric drill and polished
the edges with emery paper; they came out much more uniform and without
any rough edges.

After trimming a batch of cases, I took 20 and chamfered them the normal
way with a Wilson tool.  20 more were chamfered with the No. 5 easy-out.
Under a magnifying glass, the easy-outed cases had much cleaner chamfers
than the ones the Wilson tool was used on.  I then loaded the cases and
bullets seated in the easy-outed cases had no jacket shaving; the others
had the normal amount.

I also ran a test with ten different cases chamfered with the easy-out.
Seating bullets in them and pulling the bullets, then checking them for
scratches.  There were none to speak of; what there was was small and
hopefully insignificant.

Next step was to test the ammo.  I put a scope on one of my match rifles
in .308, the cartridge used, and shot each batch for group at 600 yards.
Group sizes were 3 inches and 5 inches; the larger one was with the cases
chamfered with the Wilson tool.  That was a good indication that the
bullets with shaved jackets did not shoot too good.

This happened about 13 years ago.  The only problem is that I've been
mentally kicking myself on the back side for not paying close enough
attention to my reloads for competition for the 13 years before that.
From: gisie@wam.umd.edu (Dr. Death)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock & SIG Triggers
Date: 25 Jul 92 00:29:22 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

In article <9207241456.AA14198@stortek.com> vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak) writes:
# use to be). Of course there is one solution to the light GLOCK
# trigger. It's called Training, Training, more Training, and
# keeping your %$%#@% finger off of the trigger until you are ready
# to fire the gun. GLOCK also recommends a holster that covers
# the entire trigger area. The GLOCK is safe with a round chambered
#                                Bill Vojak
#                                Bill_Vojak@stortek.com
#                                NRA, ILA, CFC

To even futher protect yourself, Glock has three options you can
your Glock outfitted with to increase the pressure needed to discharge
the firearm:
	a "civilian" 5 pound trigger option
	a "police" 8 pound trigger option
	and the "New York trigger" 12 pound option
Remember to TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!

Doc

-- 
x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
|  Dr. Death    gisie@wam.umd.edu                                      |
x  "If your fighting for your life, it's OK to die..."                 x
|-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x|
From: gisie@wam.umd.edu (Dr. Death)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Reloading Presses and some other stuff
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:36:38 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

I have been reloading .223 ammo for about a year now (on
a single stage press) and now that I have purchased a pistol,
I plan on doing more shooting and more reloading.  Unfortunatley,
the single stager is way too slow for my tastes.  Im ready to
purchase a progressive... any recommendations? and prices?

Also, does shooting in indoor ranges adversly affect you health?
I spend about 3 hours/week at the indoor range and can tell when I
leave that I have a "gunpowder" taste in my lungs for the next 12 hours
or so.

Last, what type of solvent and lube do you recommend for cleaning a
Glock...Break Free? I have a chance to get a free Break Free cleaning
kit.


Once again, Thanks,
Doc

-- 
x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
|  Dr. Death    gisie@wam.umd.edu                                      |
x  "If your fighting for your life, it's OK to die..."                 x
|-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x|
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Long Range Handgun Ballistics
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:41:54 GMT


Drew Betz writes:
#What's an "Artillery Luger," anyway?  Nobody would seriously
#use a 9mm handgun for targets 800m away (would they?).


"Artillery Luger" refers to a special long-barreled version of the
P.08 issued during the Great War to machine gunners, artilleymen, and
such (hence the name). The intent was to give these men, who could not
be encumbered with a rifle, a weapon with more range than a standard
pistol. It thus was a tactical forerunner of an SMG or the M1 Carbine.

The Artillery Luger was issued with a detachable board stock to turn
it into a carbine. The holster attached to the stock. It was also
typically issued with a 32 round "snail drum" magazine, thus furthering
the SMG analogy even though this weapon was semi only. The drum mag
was also used with the MP.18, the first German SMG.

The Artillery Luger had a 20 cm long barrel and a tangent sight adjustable
to 800m. It supposedly had enough energy to pierce a French helmet at
that range. The sight has Magnus force correction built in as well: to
counteract the tendency of the bullet to drift to the right as a result
of its spin, the rear sight leaf moves to the left as it elevates.


AS an aside, the Mauser pistol (Broomhandle, Bolo) also had very long
range sight settings (1000m in the 7.63mm models, 500m in 9mm) and
was generally issued with a holster-stock. So too were the Chinese contract
High Powers produced by Inglis in Canada.

I can't vouch for 800 m, but I have found the stock to greatly improve
long range accuracy in my hands (long range for pistols that is).

There were other such stocked pistols, but these are probably the best
known.



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
From: rats@ihlpm.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Webley .45
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:33:27 GMT

The Webley revolvers from the good old days used a .455 cartridge.

These looked like shorter versions of the US .45 Autorim rounds.

I think around 1912 or so, Webley brought out an autoloader that
fired a rimless version of the .455 Webley round.

Standard .45ACP rounds will not feed from the magazine of the M1912
Webley, but short-bullet catridges like the old Super-Vel would feed.

The M1912 Webley autoloader had an interesting feature in which you could
drop the magazine by a small amount, and be able to handload single
rounds through the top of the weapon; I don't recall if the weapon locked
back the slide after each round in this mode. Anyway, the rationale was
that in fighting hordes of indiginous insurgent forces, you could shoot
single rounds to your hearts content, but have a full magazine ready
when multiple attackers got too close for comfort...

Oh, by the way, the U.S. bank robber, Jeffery Erickson, who got killed
attempting to escape in Chicago July 20, earlier used an Australian Arms
"SAP" 5.56mm pistol to assault a policeman in his patrol car by firing
through his windshield. The 5.56mm rounds penetrated through the officer's
soft body armor...
From: Sproul@sproul.sproul.com (Mark Sproul)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Headspace guages
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:50:25 GMT
Organization: Sproul Consulting



In article <1992Jul22.232612.4875@megatek.uucp>, megatek!cjp@uunet.UU.NET (Chris "Systems Stud" Pikus) writes:
# 	I know what the function of the Go (too small) and No-go (too
# large) guages are for. What is the "field" guage for? Why would someone
# want one in addition/instead of the go and no-go?
# 
# 	Is the third one necessary?
#  
No, it is not.  The field guage is for testing in the field.  If the
no-go guage "goes" then you should not use it, however, in a field
situation, were repair/replacement may be difficult, try the "field
guage"  If it does NOT go, then you are still  safe but not recomended.
In the civilian world, we should never need to use the field guage.

-------------------------------------
Mark Sproul - KB2ICI