HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aleksadr@inqmind.bison.mb.ca (John Patrick Kowal)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Islamic Heraldry
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 02:52:21 CST
Organization: The Inquiring Mind BBS  1 204 488-1607

You know I really, really hate computors....or maybe it's just my 
inability to use them!  But to the subject!  A friend of mine Lord Reyhan 
has inquired is Islamic script allowable in SCA heraldry?  Using script 
for Islamic Heraldry is period and their are scources to prove it.  This 
however does not answer the question of "Is it allowed?".  If anyone is 
listening please answer...a weary computor illiterate.
Aleksadr 204-775-1031/s

aleksadr@inqmind.bison.mb.ca
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607
From: pwr@jab.tucson.az.us (Patrick Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What is this Group?
Keywords: Rialto, Household
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 08:45:06 MST
Organization: Just Another Bbs. Tucson, AZ

Volfred quotes Alan:
 
>   Actually, this isn't strictly true.  Wulfgar Silverbaer did, in fact, form
> a household on the Rialto but nothing really came of it...there isn't all tha
> much for a Rialto household to do.

Personally, I feel that wearing a piece of netting upon one's garb is a 
useful way of identifying ourselves as users of the Rialto.
 
A member of GEnie wishes to register a household badge for users of that 
net.  I am concerned that _some_, but certainly not all of such household 
centers would be blatantly mundane at events.
 
My proposal is that _only_ members of the Rialto should even be able to 
guess what such a household's badge might actually represent.
 
  In service,
  Lord Volfred Thorgrimsson   (pwr@jab.tucson.az.us)
---   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ---
  Pursuivant Extraordinary, Deputy to Black Boar Pursuivant
  Barony of Tir Ysgithr, Kingdom of Atenveldt
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Medieval Village, Medieval Summer camp, etc.
Date: 25 Jan 93 06:35:26 GMT
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago


One of the people in our group has acquired a substantial piece of
land outside Chicago. His ideas for using it range from converting
the barn into a great hall and offering catered feasts to a medieval
equivalent of colonial Williamsburg. In the course of discussion, two
questions arose which I thought I would put to the Rialto.

1. What are accessible sources on how medieval buildings were built?
He will probably make use of some existing structures while trying to
make them look period, but he would also like to be able to build
more authentic structures.

2. Suppose he wants to move towards a colonial Williamsburg, and in
order to do so makes the following offer. Any craftsman who does
something period that people would like to watch is offered free
workshop space, in exchange for making himself and his work available
as part of a living history sort of museum part of the time.
Craftsmen are free to support themselves by selling their wares,
working part time, etc.--all he is providing is space. How many
craftsmen would take him up on it?

More particularly, are there people on the net who would consider
such an offer attractive? What do they do? Presumably someone
practising a craft that requires some use of out of period equipment
("requires" meaning that doing without the equipment makes it
unreasonably difficult to make a living at the craft) could have a
front room for show and a back room with the bandsaw or whatever.

Lots of people have talked about projects along these lines, as well
as SCA summer camp (for grownups as well as children) and a variety
of other activities on a higher level and longer time span than
events. I am curious whether there are ways of building such things
that do not require very large amounts of seed money.

3. On the subject of SCA summer camp ...  . I am imagining a two or
three month long event with a rotating population. On any given day
there would be classes/workshops in two or three different things,
organized fighting instruction by someone of repute, pick up
fighting, evening dancing, ...  . Basically Pennsic with a lot fewer
people and a much longer time frame. If someone organized such a
thing, would people come? For how long? How far? What could be done
to make such an event more attractive?

Figuring a minimum workable population of 100 and time scan of eight
weeks, the event would take up at least 800 person weeks--between ten
and twenty percent of what goes into Pennsic.

David/Cariadoc
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Re: Psuedo-illegal targets (was Re: Illegal targets (was period
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:53:39 GMT

In this area, it seems to be a convention that blows to the arm are accepted
at a lighter calibration than the rest of the body - this allows a fighter to
lighten up on the arm shots, and thus take the arm without the danger of
injuring his opponent.  This seems to work quite well.

Rhys

(who almost had an arm broken, and now wears a vambrace - plastic, but covered
with leather.)
From: kballar@triton.unm.edu (Kathryn Ballard CIRT)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rialto Gathering at Estrella?
Date: 26 Jan 1993 16:07:34 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: triton.unm.edu

Are there any plans for a Rialto Gathering at Estrella War?  

Inquiring minds want to know.................
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: habura@vccnw12.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Peers-in-training
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 14:21:42 GMT

Ah, this topic again. OK, my opinion (old readers of the Rialto may want to 
hit "n"; you've already seen my views):

I'm a protege, to a Pelican in a different Kingdom. The reason I wanted to
become a protege is due both to my personality and to my real-world training.
In the sciences, there is a very strong mentoring system (there are chains
of mentor-protege relationships that are really stunning in their length);
this stems from the system where graduate students take advisers who help
them focus their research, cheer them up when something didn't work, noodge
them to do stuff that's good for them, etc. In return, the grad student
furthers the research of the adviser, helps teach undergrads, keeps the
lab running and occasionally cheers up the *adviser*. A good relationship 
outlasts the grad student's doctoral defense, and that's how the chains form.
This system works well for me, and I feel that it has helped me along 
tremendously. I think it's only natural that I would look for such a 
relationship in the SCA.

My Pelican, who is as heraldry-obsessed as I am, functions as a sounding board
for new projects, offers good, relatively unbiased and friendly opinions
on things, gives me the occasional shove (which I need at times), and so
on. We haven't worked out clearly what I'm doing in return (heraldry can be
done long distance, but we don't see each other nearly enough), but he seems
to enjoy the relationship. We also do things together; we're cooking up a
class for the Knowne Worlde Heraldic Symposium this year. I suspect I'm 
getting more benefit from the relationship than he is; I like the sense of
feeling "anchored".

On the other hand, my husband has a personality opposite mine; he does not 
like to be told what to do. He was squired for a few years to an Eastern 
knight, and it manifestly did not work. (We are still very good friends with
the knight; in fact, we are very happily members of his household. The 
problem was not a personality clash; it was the nature of the knight-squire
relationship.) Relationships like this are not for everyone.

Status: I'd be fooling myself if I thought there was no status associated 
with such a relationship. A number of people were suprised that my husband
gave back his belt; I suspect it was seen as a come-down. In my case, I
wear no belt (my Pel doesn't want me to, which is fine by me), so the only
people aware of the situation in my Kingdom are those herald-types who
happen to know both of us. (And all of you now, of course.) I don't think
that it has any effect on my percieved status, and I don't really care. 
I have heard Pelicans refuse to take proteges because they felt 1) they had
nothing to teach and 2) it would only be political patronage (exact phrase
used.) I don't agree, but they have a right to do whatever they wish. 

Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*

From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 07:51:18

    Steve wrote:
 SB> Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)

 SB> I must also repeat my plea to Tadhg - good sir, please, strive
 SB> to smother these flames that now spread wider through our
 SB> neighborhood!

 What flames? I see no flames....

 SB> While Thomas may have erred in betraying your
 SB> confidence, your ill-tempered response vilifying all those who
 SB> hang out upon the Rialto was more offensive to both my eye and
 SB> my heart.

 Truth often hurts. If I am ill-tempered, I assure you that I have been
 given reason to be. I've got the scars to back up my assertions; how long
 have you been hanging out here, anyway? I was not 'vilifying all those who
 hang out upon the Rialto', merely those fellow-hypocrites to Thomas who
 delight in jumping all over me (in public) for my writings but who have
 been conspicuous by their silence in this particular matter. If you choose
 to include yourself in that group, well, that's your doing, not mine.

 SB> Perhaps worst of all, you erred in calling Thomas/Daniel
 SB> a hypocrite - nowhere in his posting does he claim any virtue that
 SB> he asserts you lack.   :-)

 He castigates me (erroneously, I maintain) for being rude and offensive,
 and does so in a rude and offensive way. That's how *I* spell "hypocrite"
 ... your actual mileage may vary, but that's not my fault either.

    Tadhg

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: SCA Attitude Origins
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:43:34 GMT

In article <MfNdQcq00WB9A2GO93@andrew.cmu.edu> David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>   o Modern fantasy (Tolkien, Heinlein, Anderson, de Camp, Twain<!>)
>   o Science Fiction Fandom
>   o American political liberalism (founded in Berkeley!)
>   o Movies (Robin Hood)
>   o Some period authors/works -- Shakespeare, Chaucer, Mallory, Beowulf
>
>What are some others I've missed in this quick note?
>

Libertarianism - Just ask Tadgh or Cariadoc about where Cariadoc was
when he was taken away to be crowned 1st King of the Midrealm.

Dungeons and Dragons

Comic Books

>What might be on the list of "Fifty books that shaped the SCA?"
>(and how might you prioritize their influence?)
>
>   1) Tolkien's     "Lord of the Rings"
>   2) Scott's       "Ivanhoe"
>   3) White's       "The Once and Future King"
>   4) ...            ....
>
5) Gygax and Arneson's  "Dungeons and Dragons, (white box edition)"
6) Shakespeare		"Henry V" (book and Olivier version movie)  
7) Shakespeare		"Midsummer's Night Dream"
8) Rackham?		"Tales of King Arthur's Knights"
9) Rackham?		"Tales of Robin Hood"
10) Sayers (trans.)	"The Song of Roland"

Only I'd put D&D 1st on the list.

Lothar \|/
        0.


>I'll look forward to continued discussion, but for now must go comfort
>a crying five-month-old who _really_ wants to go to sleep but just
>doesn't know it yet.
>
>My best to you all -- Bertram
>
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
>Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
>INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
>+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
>      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Holy Grail monk chant... help?
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:13:27 GMT
Organization: The Rialto


Gwydion asks for the Latin being parodied in MP's Holy Grail:

>Anyway, it's just for a bit of fun, and I'm tired of writing it out as
>     "Bee yay ay-zoo dom-ee-nay, dough-na ay ees requi-em <BAM!>
>      Bee yay ay-zoo dom-ee-nay <BAM!>, dough-na ay ees requiem <BAM!>"
>when I describe it to others.

It is:
	Beate Ihesu, domine, dona eis requiem.
	Blessed Jesus, lord, give them rest.

It is from the litany of the Requiem Mass.

And for your penance for the venial sin of Latin illiteracy... :-)

Hossein/Greg
(who feels mighty smug about having to tell one of these Frankish Christians
what's what about the Latin of the mass...:-)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Ulfie's qualities
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 11:11:00 -0500

Greetings from Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, of the Barony
of Namron, in the Kingdom of Ansteorra (Norman, Oklahoma)
Organizations: Waytes and Measures, a Medieval and Renaissance Consort

 -=> Quoting Ld. William FitzBubba (Tomcat) to Robert R. Baldassano <=-
 on Who's Next?:
 
 To> Ulfie is not stupid enough to ever volunteer for Baronial Treasurer,
 To> much less the Seneschal position.  He is primarily a herald, a bard,
 To> and a scholar in that order, and we love him that way.

I thought he was first a scholar. Anyone who does a double major in 
(shudder) Astrophysics and History  -- and **_COMPLETES_** it --
is more of a scholar than this mathematician.

But it's all opinion. Everything's opinion that isn't subject to proof.

Michael (Mike Andrews)   (405) 364-0270   429 Dakota, Norman, OK 73069


... A feature is a bug with seniority.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mcdaniel@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us (Tim McDaniel)
Subject: Re: Potential New Topics
Organization: GREX Public Access Unix +1 313 761 3000
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 04:18:54 GMT

This should really go to the Herald's Mailing List,
scahrlds@pucc.princeton.edu (I think).

What "idea that a herald on duty is the voice of the Crown" (Bjalfi)?
Never heard of it before, and I've associated with a high-level
herald.  In period and in my experience and knowledge, the herald
was/is the voice of his lord, period.

The period herald wore the arms of his lord.  I think that all heralds
in the Society should do the same.  The green tabard should be
abolished.

-- 
Daniel of Lincoln, Burgh of Cynnabar / Tim McDaniel
Internet: mcdaniel@{grex,m-net}.ann-arbor.mi.us, mcdaniel@adi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blr3r@Virginia.EDU (Brian L. Rust)
Subject: body painting
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 22:22:38 GMT

	This question has stumped the folks over on alt.pagan,
so I thought I'd bring it over here and see if there were any
Picts who could offer some advice--are there any good recipies
for made-from-scratch body paint, preferably some that would
stand up to perspiration, rain, etc.?

	(If you told me four years ago that I'd be asking complete
strangers questions like this...)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 09:07:36 -0500 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: SCA Attitude Origins

Good gentles, greetings --

Hossein/Greg writes an interesting post about Courts and scribes,
but ends it with a comment about pre-1601 analogues of modern
SCA attitudes.

> The notion of the scribing of legal documents as a work of artisanship is
> a function of the pretentious bourgeoisie flocking with gold in hand to
> private scribes to obtain fradulent "evidence" of noble heritage by
> commissioning groundless achievements of arms.  It is a Renaissance
> phenomenon, not a medieval one, although I grant that a good deal of the
> attitude toward awards in the SCA has a lot more in common with the
> mindset of Renaissance bourgeoisie than with anything medieval.

I wonder if we could enumerate the various sources of modern SCA attitudes.
Here are just a few, from my understanding of our organizational history:

   o Victorian romanticism about the Middle Ages (Tennysson, Morris)
   o Modern fantasy (Tolkien, Heinlein, Anderson, de Camp, Twain<!>)
   o Science Fiction Fandom
   o American political liberalism (founded in Berkeley!)
   o Movies (Robin Hood)
   o Some period authors/works -- Shakespeare, Chaucer, Mallory, Beowulf

What are some others I've missed in this quick note?

What might be on the list of "Fifty books that shaped the SCA?"
(and how might you prioritize their influence?)

   1) Tolkien's     "Lord of the Rings"
   2) Scott's       "Ivanhoe"
   3) White's       "The Once and Future King"
   4) ...            ....

I'll look forward to continued discussion, but for now must go comfort
a crying five-month-old who _really_ wants to go to sleep but just
doesn't know it yet.

My best to you all -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Holy Grail monk chant... help?
Date: 21 Jan 1993 18:20:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan21.111628.13894@bsu-ucs> 00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Matthew J. Stum) writes:

>Anyone know what the monks are chanting in Monty Python's The Holy Grail?

I can tell you.  They are saying,

"Pie Jesu Domine,
dona eis requiem."

"Good Lord Jesus,
Give them rest."

It's the last two lines--or more properly, I think (any chant historians
around?), it's two lines that got tacked onto the end of--the sequence
_Dies Irae._

If you've seen _The Seventh Seal_ (and if you haven't, dear me, you should),
you'll recognize the scene the Monty Python crew were parodying--where the
group of _penitentes_ come into the village, carrying crosses, beating
themselves with thongs, wearing crowns of thorns, and chanting the _Dies
Irae._

The sequence is about the end of the world and the Last Judgment, and until
recently it used to be sung at funerals.  Everyone growing up in Catholic
Europe was intimately familiar with it, which is why it gets into so many
other pieces of music (Liszt's _Totentanz,_ Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique,_
etc. etc.).  

...Why do I
>even think it's legit?  Well, the more I watch the stupid thing the more
>authentic I see it to be.  ...

Yes, the Pythons did their homework.  (They're all Oxbridge graduates,
after all.)

However, a real flock of penitentes in the Middle Ages would almost certainly
not have gone around chanting just those two lines.  They would have sung
the entire _Dies Irae,_ which they would have known by heart, because they
would have heard it 

	Every All Souls' Day (November 2),
	At every funeral,
	On the _anniversary_ of the death of anyone whose heirs had enough
		money to pay for a memorial Mass.

In other words, every couple of weeks.

If you want the text and the music, send me a snailmail address and I'll
copy it out and send it to you.


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 15:21:59 -0500 
From: Bob Troyer Hansen <bh1q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: You know you're in the SCA when....

Has anyone made a compilation of the you know you're in the SCA thread
that swept through the Rialto a while back?  I think I missed a lot of
them, and would like to have them on hand.

                                    In your service,
                                            Gregor of Three Mountains
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@euler.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Authentic?
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:34:11 GMT

Tadhg did write:

 Master Sion Andreas and I, lo these many years ago, came up with a four
 bucket categorization: (1) a period thing done in a period way; (2) a
 period thing done in a modern way; (3) a modern thing done in a period
 way; and (4) a modern thing done in a modern way. We considered (1) to be
 in fulfillment of the "re-creation" aspect of the SCA, and (3) to be in
 fulfillment of the "creative" aspect of the SCA, but (2) and (4) were
 right out.

What exactly do you mean by "a modern way"?  For instance, garb can be made
by sewing machine in such a way that it is not obvious (or at least not
without careful examination) that it wasn't careful hand sewing.  Clearly,
this isn't as close to the ideal as hand sewing, but is it "right out"?
What if it was hand-sewn, but with a stainless-steel needle?

Or maybe you were just referring to things actually *done* at events, and I
misinterpreted.... 

			---Simon
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Holy Grail monk chant... help?
Date: 21 Jan 1993 23:46:42 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan21.214100.7712@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:
>
>Two brief quibbles (although I would certainly not characterize myself as
>a liturgical historian):
>First, ... the pre-Tridentine form is "Beate."

Is it really.  Do you have access to the chant?  How does it scan?

>Second, it wasn't that they were tacked onto the end of the sequentia Dies
>Irae, but that a litania followed the Dies Irae in the pre-Tridentine ordo
>of the requiem mass.


>....(it's a hell of a lot easier to get access
>to post-Tridentine liturgical forms than pre-Tridentine now that we are
>post-Vatican II's gelding of the mass ordo).

Hell, I could never get to pre-Tridentine Mass forms with music _before_
Vatican II.  Except occasionally some clever facultyperson at Berkeley
would come up with some.  Can you name me some sources?


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Made in Atlantia
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:18:09

    Baron Hossein wrote:

 HA> R> All you Latin speakers out there, how would I say "Made in Atlantia"
 HA> R> if I wanted to label something?  I know I could say "Robyyan me
 HA> R> fecit", but that's "Made by Robyyan" (or 'robyyan made me') which
 HA> R> isn't exactly what I want.

 HA> I think the question deserves a more public answer than in email
 HA> because it raises some fundamental questions about medieval Latin
 HA> usages in written ascriptions of manufacture or authorship of artifacts.

 ...

 HA> Second, it would have been far more common for a form of the verb
 HA> _fio_ to have been used with the name of the manufacturer/author in
 HA> the ablative of means, e.g., "_Robyyano fit_," "[this] is made by
 HA> Robyyan."  Another common form would be the past participle of the
 HA> verb in an ablative absolute construction with the name of the
 HA> manufacturer/author in the ablative of means, e.g., "_Robyyano
 HA> facto_," literally "[this] having been made by Robyyan."

 Hm. I should have thought a form of *fabrior* would be more appropriate...

    Tadhg, pleasantly surprised to find something to do with the Middle
    Ages being discussed in this forum.

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca