HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
Date: 30 Aug 1992 23:19:08 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


In article <LJMORLY.92Aug30185025@polaris.utu.fi> writes:

>> The accusation on the table is that Judaism is characterized by or
>> based upon rejection of Jesus as messiah.
>
> But what do you say about the fact that the modern day Judaism (Rabbinic)
> ignores the parts which talk about the Messiah as being Son of God and
> his death as atonement for sins ?

It doesn't ignore those parts, it understands them differently
than you do.  


>  Tanach also says that all men are sinners
> (unlike RJ which says we've got a "Divine spark" inside) and that there

Non-sequitur.


> is no atonement of sins without a blood sacrifice (Lev. 16,17).

Some atonement offerings were bloodless, and some atonement
didn't even involve sacrifices.


> How do you think you'll get pass the angel who is standing in front of the 
> paradise with a flaming sword (Gen. 3:24) ? 

Present my life's accumulated merits.


>> The reality is that rejection of Jesus as messiah follows from the
>> tenets of Judaism, not the other way around.  I.e., rejection
>> of Jesus is an effect of Judaism, not a cause.
>
> You have it backwards. The original, biblical Judaism was Tanach Judaism.
> If the rejection of Yeshua follows from the tenets of modern day RJ, that
> only prooves the fact that it isn't based on Tanach.

You have only charged that Jewish misunderstanding of Tanach led to
rejecting Jesus.  You have not demonstrated that this rejection forms
the basis of Judaism.  Prove or retract.



> ...  Or do you just think that you
> are not allowed to believe what Tanach says, but only what Rambam or Rashi
> or some other rabbi says ? What makes them more capable of knowing Hashem ?

Their genius in Torah, and their hard work to develop it.

[usual gang of misinterpretations deleted]

> You said that a better term would be 'failed messiah'. Does that mean that
> you believe that Yeshua was the Messiah,

No, just one of many candidates (assuming he was Joseph's son.)
"Failed would-be messiah" is better yet.


> ...  but somehow he "failed" by dying
> instead of setting a kingdom in Jerusalem ?

Yes.


>   And how would you define what
> is Christianity, if not a belief in the Jewish Messiah, the real one ?

  'a belief that Jesus was/is the messiah.'


> BTW if Yeshua wouldn't have risen from the dead, it would be the worst kind
> of avodat zara to serve him.

Irrelevant.  But anyway, why would worshipping a dead person be the 
worst kind?  What about worshipping statues or sacrificing children?

R
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Missionizing to 2-year-olds
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:37:01 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

I wrote:

>> Are you seriously suggesting that shunning grown children is somehow
>> worse than making death threats against pre-schoolers?  If not, then
>> please clarify what you meant.

Bruce responded:

> Making death threats against pre-schoolers?

Telling a pre-schooler that his refusal to accept Jesus is
causing him to start drowning is to threaten him with death.
Let's see what the Strom children post about the incident.


> Can you cite any incidents where Messianic Jews threatened
> pre-schoolers with death?

No.  But that's not what I asked Bruce Benning.  If you'd
like to answer my question, go ahead.

...
> I think this is really getting absurd, Rob.  Bruce Benning has made his
> point, and he has done so by citing a phenomenon which verifiably occurs.
> You, on the other hand, are raising a straw man of your own invention.

What straw man?  The question is posed above to Bruce Benning, and
I await his reply.

R
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Private Eduation.
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:52:12 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 -=> Quoting Rick Miller to All <=-
 RM> From: rick@ee.uwm.edu (Rick Miller)
 RM> Date: 25 Aug 92 16:05:20 GMT
 RM> Organization: University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee
 RM> Message-ID: <1992Aug25.160520.25015@uwm.edu>
 RM> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RM> But need it be so for my son?  Alex is only a year old now and I've
 RM> been wondering if there is a school that will teach him these things
 RM> which I don't know.  I've considered sending him through whatever
 RM> schooling Jewish children get, but I don't want to confuse him by
 RM> telling him that his Jewish teachers have missed something (while
 RM> admitting that I don't know all that they know).
    Since you are a Believer, have you thought about attending a
    Messianic Shule/Synagogue, {of Believing Jews}, on Shabbat?  Your
    children could go to the Shabbat school there, and learn Biblical
    Judaism from a Messianic perspective.

... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Book: The Bible and UFOs
Date: 2 Sep 1992 23:47:58 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Sep2.153142.1@jaguar.uofs.edu> you write:
dfm2@jaguar.uofs.edu

> RE: ufo's and the bible
> There was a book in my high school library, i believe on that subject.
> it supposed that Ezekiel's chariot, Elijah's disapperance, and much
> dinine revelation to be the work of UFOs...

That hypothesis doesn't gain you anything.
The crucial question remains:  'If we were created by space 
aliens in UFOs, who created the space aliens?"

R
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Administrivia
Date: 25 Aug 1992 16:46:44 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Please pardon the Subject: line misplacement in my posts.
I'm using a different mail-news poster than usual.  When
replying to the posts, please use the Subject: line just
under the header.

R
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under B'rit Chadashah
Date: 25 Aug 92 08:40:02 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#3115

Subject: Clean And Unclean Un
From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:16:02 GMT

>    Tom's theology is not merely dangerous "IF", but it is one of the
>ancient theolgical errors which provided for a great deal of Christian
>anti-Semitism throughout the ages.  Origen, Eusebius, Jerome, Augustine,
>Thomas Aquinas, Calvin, Luther--all these theologians strayed from the
>truth of the Scriptures in regard to the relationship between Israel and
>the Church--all these provided the justification for future Christian
>anti-semitism.  Not that they didn't have correct theology to
>contribute, but where they erred, they erred in a big way creating
>incredible pain and suffering for the Jewish people and stealing the
>true witness of Messiah from the Gentiles who had been grafted into the
>Commonwealth of Israel.
>    But TA doesn't like hearing that the ancient fathers were capable of
>error.  It mars the pedestal he has his heros perched on.

Very succinctly and accurately put.  I find it ironic and telling that he
seems to elevate these "church fathers" in a manner similar to the way the
RJ's elevate the "sages", and doesn't hesitate to join them in condemning
those of us who question their wisdom.

>... Don't be
>fooled by the subtlity of anti-semitism to be found in TA's theology.
>It is there and it leads only to NOT-subtle forms of anti-Semitism.
>    If you care for a reference, consult Daniel Gruber's "The Church and
>the Jews: The Biblical Relationship".  It is an exhaustive investigation
>of the theological development of Christian anti-semitism.  Where the
>"exalted" fathers departed from the teaching of the Scriptures.

I can also highly recommend Mike Brown's book, OUR HANDS ARE
STAINED WITH BLOOD, ISBN 1-56043-068-0, 1992, published by Destiny Image
Publishers, P.O. Box 310, Shippensburg, Pennsylvania 17257.  It is also
available from Messiah Biblical Institute Bookstore,  P.O. Box 7163,
Gaithersburg, Maryland 20898.  Call (301) 977-0156.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Personal Query: Jewish Heritage
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:41:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


          -=> Quoting Laura Johanna Manninen <=-
 LJM> From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
 LJM> Date: 31 Aug 92 17:14:39 GMT
 LJM> Organization: University of Turku
 LJM> Message-ID: <LJMORLY.92Aug31181439@polaris.utu.fi>
 LJM> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 LJM> From an RJ point of view, you'd be halachically fully Jewish if you
 LJM> wouldn't believe in Yeshua. From MJ, you are a Jew. Bill might add here
 LJM> "acting  goyisha".  :-)
      Well, actually, even halachic-ly they'd be considered fully
      Jewish, -but they wouldn't be considered "good Jews" by some,
      if they believed in Y'shua as Messiah.  Of course, we'd consider
      them 'good-Jews', huh? :-)

... 012 Sh'ma Yisrael: HaShem - El*hienu - HaShem ECHAD! ... 210    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Words Like Arrows
Date: 30 Aug 1992 22:11:52 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <140052.2AA07586@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Donna D'orio writes:

> justify thier actions to German Christians?  You know, I can keep quiet
> and do the liberal thing of respecting dangerous religious beliefs, or I
> can be a voice that refuses to advance words that end up killing people.
> The way I heard it, Silence is also an answer.

I don't advocate silence, rather make sure that your charges
have a basis in reality so they can be dealt with honestly.  

>    Yep...the waters have been pretty muddied by centuries of wrong
> Christian teaching concerning the roles and relationship between Jewish
> and Gentile believers in Yeshua, but why should Harvey or any other
> Messianics perpetuate the wrong identification?

Because re-defining terms enables them to rationalize misleading
others, who assume that "MJ" terms such as "orthodox Jew" are
equivalent to their non-MJ counterparts.


>   Tom's statement may
> sound good and logical and acceptable to you...the only problem is
> that it isn't accurate for Messianic Jews.  And is your preference not
> more based on disownership of Messianics as Jews than in clarity of
> identifying terms?  Let's be real.

You have it backwards.  "Messianics" calling their religion
Jewish is like Harvey Smith changing his name to Harvey Rockefeller
and demanding a share in the family fortune.  The Rockefellers
can't disown him, but they can stop him from claiming an
inheritance, and insist that for clarity he make clear his
affiliation with the Smith family.

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Paradise (was Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 20:08:00 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <LJMORLY.92Aug30185025@polaris.utu.fi>, ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:

|> How do you think you'll get pass the angel who is standing in front of the 
|> paradise with a flaming sword (Gen. 3:24) ? 
|> 
Do you (Christians) equate the garden of Eden with heaven/the afterlife?

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (Old) Question for Rob Levene
Date: 3 Sep 1992 21:26:58 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Bruce Tiffany:
>> ...
>>> Not among *Rabbinic* Jews, whose religion is characterized by
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> the rejection of Yeshua as Messiah.

I said:
>> I keep hearing this accusation, but I never get any evidence.  Nu?

BT> You mean Rabbinic Jews do *not* reject Yeshua as Messiah??

I've underlined the accusation to assist your comprehension.
Kindly prove it or retract it.


>> I'm not discussing what Democrat party positions *are*, I'm 
>> discussing who has the right to call his positions in line
>> with the Democrat party platform...
>
> My point exactly!  A few decades ago this candidate might have espoused what
> the GOP stands (?) for today, and have been right in line with the
> Democratic Party of the day!  But transport him into the future, to 1992,
> holding the same views, and you'd be right in saying he's no Democrat...
...
> "I didn't leave the Democratic Party.  The Democratic Party left me!"
>						-- Ronald Reagan

First of all, the tenets of Judaism don't vary like 
political platforms.  Just as Ronald Reagan chose to identify
himself with the GOP when his views matched theirs, so should
"Messianic Jews[sic]" publicly identify themselves with
Christianity whose whose tenets also match theirs.

If not, I'd be interested in hearing how "Messianic Jewish [sic]"
tenets differ from the major Christian denominations'.


> And Messianic Jews are indeed not Rabbinic Jews.  But they are
> Biblical Jews.

Well, according to Harvey's doctrinal statement...

# As Messianic Jewish believers we believe:
#
# 1. That we are a part of the universal body of Messiah comprised of both
#   Jews and Gentiles and consider Biblical Christianity to be Biblical 
#   Judaism.

...they're Biblical Christians.  But they don't identify themselves
as Christians.  Why not?


R
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (none)
Date: 25 Aug 1992 16:32:29 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Subject: Re: Levite Priest Gives Life for Sinners
Organization: Johns Hopkins University


Bruce Benning writes:

...
> - You may not ask why the exile of the person in the city of refuge
>   is ended by the death of the high priest. But I believe it is an
>   important issue. Why wasn't the exile ended every twenty years?
>   Something more regular and orderly like the other laws which are
>   built upon times/dates, days/weeks/years. This seems to stand out
>   as unique. Especially as a follower of Messiah Yeshua.
...

I guess you could derive from this section that just as the death
of the high priest offers no atonement for intentional sins or
grossly negligent killing, and since you seem to associate Jesus
with priesthood, then the death of Jesus offers no atonement
for your intentional sins or your grossly negligent actions,
and if you did any, you're in trouble.

If this isn't your point, then what is?

R
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 25 Aug 92 13:17:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


To: Bill Carlson
 BC=>    Yup, and should the L-rd tarry, I'm sure you, [and me], as 
 BC=>HaShem
 BC=>    grants strength, will several 'thousand' more :-)

Its really amazing to me how folks fight faith, and the Word of the L-rd.
All our beginnings were from folks like father Abraham who heard the voice 
of G-d went against the norms of the religions of his day, and followed G-d.

I am sure that most are comfortable with religion, however, what a blessing 
and commitment to follow the voice of Ha Shem...
 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Strange Bedfellows
Date: 29 Aug 92 15:29:04 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX


    In response to Bruce Tiffany:
bb>From: btiffany@pbs.org
bb>Date: 25 Aug 92 12:40:02 GMT
bb>Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA
bb>Message-ID: <1992Aug25.084003.16909@pbs.org>
bb>Newsgroups: alt.messianic

bb>Very succinctly and accurately put.  I find it ironic and telling that h
bb>seems to elevate these "church fathers" in a manner similar to the way t
bb>RJ's elevate the "sages", and doesn't hesitate to join them in condemnin
bb>those of us who question their wisdom.

    Thanks for the response, Bruce.  It is funny how the truth makes
for strange bedfellows in the opposition's camp.  Well, folks can cop
an elitist attitude all they want preserving the traditions of men, but
that will not move me away from priority alliance to the actual
scripture.  I am more than willing to lay down any ideas that I hold
which don't line up with the full counsel of the Word, and I have laid
down many wrong understandings.  But it is just plain pride and
foolishness to refuse to consider the evidence when it is laid plainly
in front of you.  Who does that really hurt anyway?

bb>I can also highly recommend Mike Brown's book, OUR HANDS ARE
bb>STAINED WITH BLOOD, ISBN 1-56043-068-0, 1992, published by Destiny Image
bb>Publishers, P.O. Box 310, Shippensburg, Pennsylvania 17257.  It is also
bb>available from Messiah Biblical Institute Bookstore,  P.O. Box 7163,
bb>Gaithersburg, Maryland 20898.  Call (301) 977-0156.

    Got it, read it, loved it and also highly recommend it!  BTW, aren't
you the one that posted something a month or so ago about something
Keith Intrater said?  I've read a couple of his books and I am *really*
impressed with his insight.  He is one of Dan Juster's spiritual "off-
spring" right? (Also just finished transcribing tapes from one of Dan
Juster's sessions at the UMJC conference last month....which I hope he
will write a book about: A Messianic Perspective on the History of the
Church.  Really good stuff!)  There sure seems to be a surge happening
on this aspect of the issue....no doubt in my mind but that God is on
the move!
    Well, Shalom and keep fighting the good fight!
    Donna D'Iorio

--  
Donna D'Iorio - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (none)
Date: 25 Aug 1992 16:31:01 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

In article <LJMORLY.92Aug18222617@polaris.utu.fi> writes:

(To Tom Albrecht)
> Wrong. It's your turn to repent of calling MJ's like Mormons or JW's.
> You are the one dealing dishonestly.

What do Mormons or JW's have to do with anything?

>  And I bet you enjoyed very much 
> writing about that subject "Who killed Yeshua". (NO -- please -- don't
> start again !) If that isn't anti-semitic behaviour, what is ? 

Amazing how people can read minds from across the ocean.

> Levene-Albrecht -team stroke again. (:-)

What we have is a three-way free-for-all, not "teams."

Issues:
a) Was Jesus the messiah?
b) Should the "Messianic Jewish[sic]" movement call itself Jewish?
c) Do present-day Jews have a right to Israel?

Strange Bedfellows:
For (a), it's I vs (Tom and the MJ's[sic])
For (b), it's (Tom and I) vs the MJ's[sic]
For (c), it's Tom vs (the MJ's [sic] and me)

R
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
Date: 1 Sep 92 02:37:07 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


          -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene <=-
 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Date: 30 Aug 92 05:06:13 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9208300505.AA17796@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RAL> A better term would be "failed messiah."  Lots of things
 RAL> disqualify Jesus.  Quoting the Ramban at the 1263 disputation,
 RAL> ".. And does not the prophet also say that at the time of messiah
 RAL> 'they shall not teach their friends war, etc.?' (Jer. 31:33) and
 RAL> is it not written (Is. 11:9) that then 'the world shall be full
 RAL> of knowledge of the L-rd as the waters cover the sea?'  And from
 RAL> the days of Jesus till now, the entire world is full of robbery
 RAL> and pillaging..."  Similarly, billions of people today are
 RAL> atheists and pagans.
     That is where the Rambam was in error.  For the standard Orthodox
     Rabbinic teaching is that there are two appearances of Messiah[s].
     Most of your Orthodox would not expect Messiah ben-Yosef to do the
     things that Messiah Ben-David will do. - So..., why should you
     expect Y'shua, {who suffered as Messiah}, do to the things that
     Messiah Ben-David will do?! <-(when He returns :-)  If you ponder,
     honestly with yourself, this logic just for a moment, - before you
     think up another excuse/rational, I think you will see that what I
     just said is correct.
 RAL> Need I say more?
     Need I say more? :-)

... 012 Sh'ma Yisrael: HaShem - El*hienu - HaShem ECHAD! ... 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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