From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Scholars Have Spent Their Careers Exposing 'Wieneramus' Lies, 'Rom*.'
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:05:00 GMT


<92103.221733PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu>
PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu

>              This Text was written by Andronikos Romanos.

Mega-scholar in action.

>           It is a response to a "sort of a response" to some
>           Mr. Mutlu who did not follow the rules of congenia-
>           lity and attempted to refute a documented position
>           I expressed towards Mr Parlekbilec... The unbeliev-
>           able thing here is that this fellow refrained even
>           from mentioning what my actual points were.

Clear as mud. I think you stretched your imagination way too far given 
the fact that you presented the Greek propaganda movie script as truth 
(repeatedly so.) Besides, I would hardly consider you the wisdom 
of truth on Turkish people and history.

>           Now, Mr.Mutlu jumps in and supposedly tries to argue what Mr.
>           Parlakbilek asked me to show. The problem is that he does NOT
>           even MENTION a single of my positions or citations.

I simply love people who don't read and then spout myths as evidence.
If you study the available historical records I have provided, you 
will save yourself from both embarrassment and surprise. The Turkish
tradition through the centuries has been to demonstrate formidable
tolerance to the other faiths.

>           I don't care much that he is the one resorting mainly on Turk-
>           ish or Ottoman Sources but...what sort of refuting is this? 

Yet another 'Wieneramus' to deal with?

[1]  B. Braude/B. Lewis, eds., "Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Empire:
     The Functioning of Pluralist Society," (New York/London, 1982), p. 2.
[2]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
     pp. 70-71.
[3]  Ibid., p.91.
[4]  Ibid., pp. 103-104.
[5]  Ibid., pp. 214-215.
[6]  Ibid., pp. 215-216.
[7]  A Taneri, "Turk Devlet Gelenegi," (Ankara, 1975). Furthermore, O. Turan
     writes that Turkish states before the Ottoman Empire also showed 
     toleration to minorities and that they provided freedom of belief (Turk
     Cihan Hakimiyeti Mefkuresi Tarihi, v. 2, Istanbul, 1969.)
[8]  E. Gungor, "Kultur Degismesi ve Milliyetcilik," 2nd ed. (Istanbul, 1984),
     pp. 142-143. This author's observation concerning minorities is also worth
     quoting: "In reality, minorities in a country are like harmful bacteria in
     a living organism. As long as the organism is strong, the bacteria are 
     inactive; but when it becomes weak, they try to eat it up." (p. 142).
[9]  Braude/Lewis, op. cit., p. 1.
[10] M. E. Duzdag, "Sehyulislam Ebussuud Efendi'nin Fetvalari Isiginda XVI.
     Asir Turk Hayati," (Istanbul, 1972), p. 176.
[11] E. A. Van Dyck, ed., "Capitulations of the Ottoman Empire," (Washington:
     Government Printing Office, 1881), appendix III, pp. 106-113.
[12] S. S. Fraseri, "Kamus-i Turki," (Istanbul, 1901), v. 2, p. 1400 and
     Ali Said, "Resimli Kamus-i Osmani," (Istanbul, 1912), p. 980.
[13] N. Sousa, "The Capitulatory Regime of Turkey, its History, Origin and
     Nature," (Baltimore, 1933).
[14] C. S. Coon, Caravan: "The Story of the Middle East," (New York, 1951),
     p. 162 and H. A. R. Gibb/H. Bowen, "Islamic Society and the West: A
     Study of the Impact of Western Civilization on Moslem Culture in the
     Near East," (Oxford, 1951).
[15] S. S. Aydemir, "Makedonya'dan Orta Asya'ya Enver Pasa," 2nd ed. (Istanbul,
     1972), v. 1, p. 315.
[16] I. F. Harik, "The Ethnic Revolution and Political Integration in the 
     Middle East," IJMES, v. III (1972), p. 305; A. F. Hourani, "Minorities
     in the Arab World," (London, 1947).

>           It
>           is at least unacceptable!  Therefore,  I believe that I should
>           post my piece so that everybody  (of those that wonder on what
>           I said) can read it, and yes: This INCLUDES  Mr. Mutlu.

Be my guest.

>SOME GROWND RULES: Judging from the recent article of  Mr Milson  and the
>           comments around the other networks it is my understanding that
>           this netter does not really care about truth and may very well
>           include within the parentheses  he cites only SELECTED phrases
>           and words...so this is only ONE MORE VIOLATION in the  code of
>           arguing.  I think I prefer Mr Parlakbilek!  He was more honest
>           despite his shouts.

Your hero (milson) has already been utterly humiliated on the net.
As for the genocide of 2.5 million Turks by the Armenians between
1914 and 1920, though,

"Within a few months after the war began, these Armenian guerrilla
 forces, operating in close coordination with the Russians, were
 savagely attacking Turkish cities, towns and villages in the east,
 massacring their inhabitants without mercy, while at the same time
 working to sabotage the Ottoman army's war effort by destroying roads
 and bridges, raiding caravans, and doing whatever else they could to
 ease Russian occupation. The atrocities committed by the Armenian 
 volunteer forces accompanying the Russian army were so severe that the 
 Russian commanders themselves were compelled to withdraw them from the 
 fighting fronts and sent them to rear guard duties. The memoirs of many
 Russian officers who served in the east at this time are filled with 
 accounts of the revolting atrocities committed by these Armenian 
 guerrillas, which were savage even by relatively primitive standards of
 war then observed in such areas.[1]"

[1] "Journal de Guerre du Deuxieme d'Artillerie de Forteresse Russe 
     d'Erzeroum," 1919, p. 28.

Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934, 
        (73 pages with Appendix).

p. 15 (first paragraph)

"Method No. 8 is as follows:-
 To wage fight, and to subject to terrorism the government officials, the
 traitors, the betrayers, the usurers, and the exploiters of all description".

 Method No. 11 is:-
"To subject the government institutions to destruction and pillage".

 ......
 At first, these terrorist methods were resorted to in order to obtain money
 for the revolutionary movements in the Turkish territory.

p. 25 (third paragraph)

"...Some real fighters sprang up from among the people, who struck terror
 into the hearts of the Turks."

>           I would not object to discuss a matter with a new person,  but
>           the whole attitude was totally unbelievable: NOT  WRITING DOWN
>           MY POSITION AND EXACTLY WHAT THE ARGUMENT WAS!This shows clear
>           disrespect towards the netters and is a disservice towards his
>           compatriots... Don't they get it?

Your posting is littered with historically incorrect statements, lies,
exaggerations, and ill-formed conclusions. See below.

>           I AM NOT Kidding!!! If you do not believe it, read it yourself
>           in Mr.Mutlu's text.

Well, it looks like we have another classic Greek spouting fountain
of arrogant layered drivel.

>           ALL these may explain why the Serbs,Bulgarians,Armenians, and
>           Greeks would try so hard to get  rid of the Turks through out
>           the history of the cruel empire. And this may shed some light
>           to movements also in Egypt,Syria and recently in Kurdistan...

Well, you'd better post your whole list. The scholars have spent their
careers exposing 'Wieneramus-style' lies.

"If Turks had behaved like Christians to use force to convert to Islam the
nations which they brought under their power, to which no one could have
opposed, today there would be neither an Armenian question, nor a problem
about Crete, and probably no Eastern problem. But Turks did not do so. They
obeyed the word of the Koran to permit everybody "to worship in their own
way" centuries before Frederick the Great pronounced his famous dictum. Thus,
in an age when the Christian Europe itself shed Christian blood and when 
people in Europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs
differed from theirs, the Ottoman Empire became the sole country where the
inquisition did not exist, where deaths at the stake were unheard of and 
where accusations of witchcraft were not made. And the barbarian (!) Turkey
was the only country where the Jews persecuted and chased away everywhere
by the Christians, could find asylum. These facts demonstrate that Muslim
countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
countries."[1]

[1] Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
    pp. 70-71.

"The Turks, who are a conquering nation, did not Turkify the nations that came
under their rule; instead, they respected their religions and traditions. It
was a stroke of luck for Romania to live under Turkish rule instead of
Russian or Austrian rule. Because otherwise there would not have been a
Romanian nation today" (Popescu Ciocanel).

"Turks rule over people under their administration only externally, without
interfering with their internal structures. On account of this, the autonomy
of minorities in Turkey is better and more complete than any in the most
advanced European countries."[2]

[2]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
     p. 91.

>           Last but not least I had nothing else to add to my positions
>           for there was not really  anything  relevant in this strange
>           (to say it very very kindly) "response".

I still fail to see how you can challenge the Ottoman scholars. 
Please spell it out for us.

>  Andro:"From now on,our story of the Hellenes will be largely associated
>         with this newcomers:the Turks. In the wake of conquest the rela-
>         tions of the two nations started with in worst possible way: The
>         Greeks, as the other conquered people of the  Balkans, Caucasia,
>         Mesopotamia, Arabia, Egypt...suffered similar deportations, exe-
>         cutions, oppression policies  much similar to the famous Armeni-
>         an genocide, as well as the so called  "tax of blood"   (a cruel
>         turkification policy of the  Ottomans  that  consisted of taking

And you expect us to take you seriously? Where in the world did you dig 
up the above rhetoric? Can you document it? During the First World War 
and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship through a 
premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old 
policy of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year 
homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.
J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.
Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.
Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.
Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.
Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.
Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.
Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.
Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.
Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.
John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.
John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.
Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.
Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.
Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.
Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.
Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.
Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.
Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.
Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.
Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).
Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.
Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.
James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.
.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish