From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,ba.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Just for the halibut
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:57:41 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Apr8.002210.28268@igor.tamri.com>, donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
> In article <10357@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# ## If the government passed a law saying that I had to paint my face
# ## green and walk on my hands, I also wouldn't comply.  If they pass a
# ## law saying that I can't burn my house down because it's too close to
# ## another, I would comply.  There's a difference.
# #
# #What is that difference?  That one is "reasonable" and the other is
# #not?  What makes one reasonable and one unreasonable?
# 
# I use my intellect to decide whether to obey a law or not.  I can't
# imagine what you do...

You haven't answered the question.  How do you decide which laws are
"reasonable" and which aren't?

# Take traffic laws, for instance.  It is illegal to drive over 55 mph on
# the stretch of 280 between San Francisco and Millbrae.  Yet, if you were
# to drive over that section of the road at 45 mph, you would actually be
# doing something stupid and dangerous.

Absolutely.  I'm not arguing for blindly obeying every law, whether
sensible or not.  But WHY do you insist that some laws are good, and
others are bad?  Why is obeying a law requiring you to paint your
face green stupid, but a law that prohibits free association should
be obeyed?

# ## #Reading the list of organization names in soc.motss is such a persuasive
# ## #example of how widespread the discrimination is. :-)
# ## 
# ## Clayton, I don't know whether you've always lived in northern CA your
# ## whole life but you might want to consider the fact that the tolerance
# ## shown in (some) Bay Area towns is the exception, not the norm.  Back
# ## in upstate NY, where I grew up, I knew a teacher who was gay and was
# ## fired when that was found out.  Despite the fact that he was supposed
# ## to be a decent teacher
# #
# #You have made an excellent argument that if you live in an area that
# #doesn't tolerate gays, it would be best to be quiet about it, or 
# #move somewhere more tolerant.  But if the population is that intolerant,
# #how will you get an antidiscrimination law passed?
# #
# #Or is this just about using political power?
# 
# BZZZZT!  Wrong!  Again you've tied two facts together and failed to come
# to a reasonable conclusion.  What I have done is demonstrate that there
# are areas that (stupidly) discriminate against the rights of gays.  I am
# suggesting that that should not be possible, under the law.

If most of the population support such discrimination, how will you
get such a law passed?

# ## Of course, you've refused to consider the case that some members of
# ## society dislike gays, some think they should be treated fairly and some
# ## just don't care.
# ## 
# ##    don
# #
# #Fine.  Consider a society where a third actively disapprove of
# #homosexuality, a third approve of it enough that they believe in
# #antidiscrimination laws, and a third don't care.  (This may well be
# #the situation in California).  What are the market forces that put 
# #homosexuals at a disadvantage?  Unless the one third who are hostile
# #control more than one third of employment or housing, their "prejudice"
# #will cause them to lose potential employers and tenants, reducing
# #their market size, and thus reducing their profitability.
# 
# "Market forces" do not describe the whole of reality, Clayton.  There's
# also stupidity, intolerance, vindictiveness and flatulence.

You still haven't explained how discrimination by a minority of the
population prevents homosexuals from working and getting housing.
Or is it because you can't?

# IMHO, you're free to disapprove of homosexuality all you want.  If you
# express that opinion, I'll refute it publicly and if you attempt to
# block legislation aimed at giving folx a fair shot, my vote will cancel
# yours out.  better give it up, old sod!

Why?  But there is a big difference between us -- you are welcome
to do as you please about hiring homosexuals -- you just won't give
me that same freedom.  Fascist.

#    don


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"The mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a
favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace
of God." -- Thomas Jefferson