HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu (Chua HakLien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Sf Starter Kit
Date: 8 Jan 1993 09:06:24 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: avalanche.berkeley.edu

In article <726455891.AA03678@tdkt.kksys.com> David.Dyer-bennet@f32.n1797.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-bennet) writes:
> CH> A friend of mine recently asked me for 7-10 books that would give a
>
>I doubt we can agree on a truly definitive list, but I think the
>discussion is worthwhile for itself, and that a very *useful* if not
>fully definitive list can be developed.  Would you consider making
>the list about 25, with the idea that it'll get pared down by the
>reader or the recommender to about 10?  
>
Yes, I would probably use a core 10 and have a list of other suggested
readings. Right now, the list looks like this:-
_Dune_ ( Herbert ), _The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress_ ( Heinlein ),
_Foundation_ (Asimov), _Childhood's_End_ ( Clarke ), _The_Man_In_The_High_
Castle_ ( Dick ), _Neuromancer_ ( Gibson ), _Flowers_For_Algernon_ (Keyes),
and I still haven't quite decided what
the other three should be; though they could possibly include Benford's
_Timescape_ and Haldeman's _The_Forever_War_. I decided to put short-story
collections in another category, so I'd have a little more space to work with.
An anthology such as _Full_Spectrum_ (1,2 or 3) captures most of modern SF,
and anyway,
despite readers constantly saying that "they like so-and-so's
short stories better", it is for
novels that most writers are remembered by. No Raymond Carver in SF folks....
Suggested readings for novels now include 
_The_Left_Hand_Of_Darkness_ ( LeGuin ), _Stand_On_Zanzibar_ ( Brunner ),
_Ender's_Game_ ( Card ), _Hyperion_ (Simmons), _The_Mote_In_God's_Eye_
(Niven & Pournelle) and many, many others.

Thanks to everyone who's sent in stuff so far. I'd certainly appreciate a
few examples of good British/European SF as well, and which you feel
gives a good idea of New Age Science Fiction.

Chua
+==+
PS: Sorry for the poor margins. Can't figure this editor out...



Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 18:07:54 GMT

Charles Cohen observes, speaking of Starship Troopers:

Homosexuality wasn't as open
during RAH's Starship Trooper's time as it was when Haldeman wrote
The Forever War.

Perhaps not, but at least one critic (whose name I can't recall) observes
that Johnny Rico's interest in male jewelry etc. is typical of a particular
kind of gay style in the 1950s and 60s.

By the way, this discussion finally provoked me to read Grumbles from the
Grave, which I found most interesting--especially in connection with RAH's
endless conflicts with his Scribner's juvenile editor, who kept trying to
impose 1940s-style political correctitude on books like Red Planet and Space
Cadet. Scribner's then turned down Starship Troopers flat, even though RAH's
earlier books had practically subsidized most of the rest of the house's
juvenile list. Given that experience, plus Heinlein's natural willingness to
pursue an idea wherever it might lead, I understand better why he so
deliberately explored "scandalous" themes in his later works.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Viscount of Adrilankha
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:43:46 GMT

Brust's sequel to "The Phoenix Guards" has been turned in -- "The Viscount
of Adrilankha".  (Actually, from what I understand, the sequel to TPG is
"Five Hundred Years After" -- I still say it ought to be either 170 years
or 20 decades -- which tells of Adron's Oops, so Viscount will probably
be third.  It needn't be last -- there are lots more three-musketeer
titles to plunder.)

Now who would the Viscount be?  I take it that Khaavren corresponds to
Dartagnan, that Tazendra corresponds to Porthos, and that the Viscount
is the son of either Pel or Aerich -- which corresponds to Athos.  But
I can't decide which:  Both have Athos-type backgrounds and Aramis-type
behavior.  Or am I missing something obvious?

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

Roses red and violets blew
  and all the sweetest flowres that in the forrest grew -- Edmund Spenser
From: wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu (Rick Russell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Dune the Movie, my $0.02.
Date: 11 Jan 1993 00:20:11 -0600
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamsun.tamu.edu

I know, for certain, that there are at least 2 versions of Dune in
existence.  The first, the theatrical release, is well known. The
second, a syndicated release made-for-television, was slightly longer
than the theatrical release and had several new and different things
about it. I will elaborate:

 - In the TV release, the 'fading head' which begins to explain the
story ("Oh, I almost forgot..." Hahahaha!) is replaced by a narrated
'storyboard' describing the Dune universe history, with short sections
on the Guild, Spice, the Bene Gesserit, the Mentats, the Emperor, and
the two warring houses. It's about 10 minutes long. The illustrations
appear to have been original storyboard work... or it looked like it,
anyway. They were quite rough.

 - In the TV release, there are many scenes which did not make it into
the theatrical release. They are easily identified because the eyes of
the Ibad (the blue on blue eyes) are *missing* from the new scenes.
That effect must have been added in the final edit. The most important
new scene is probably the Water of Life scene, where Paul takes the
same substance the Bene Gesserit do.

 - David Lynch was consulted on the re-edit of the film for
television, and he was so pissed off that he wouldn't allow his name
to be attached to the film. So the 'Director' credit lists Allan
Smithee as the director.

There are probably a few other differences, but those 3 are the easily
identifiable ones.

I know all this because I have both versions on videotape. The TV
release was broadcast in Dallas in 1987 or 88, I think. A friend of
mine (not on the net) has a copy of "The Making of Dune, the Movie",
which is a fairly thick paperback describing the actors, modelling
techniques, the sets and locations, and interviews with the principal
filmmakers (Herbert, Lynch, et. al.).

It's also worth pointing out that the theatrical release of Dune, was,
for all practical purposes, the 'Director's Cut'. Lynch had total
creative control over the final product; he didn't gut the film
because of pressure from studios or executives. He gutted the film
because he liked it that way. That's why he was so pissed off at the
TV version; he thought the studio goofballs were mangling his artistic
product.
-- 
#      Rick Russell | TAMU Meteorology | wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu       # 
#     "I am Elfy of Atlantis." "I am Jo-Jo of Munchkinland."           #
#     "We are Elfy and Jo-Jo!"                                         #
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pyotr@halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe)
Subject: Haldeman's War (was Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:55:46 GMT

charles@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Charles Jacob Cohen) writes:

>In article <6287@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at> mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner) writes:
>>From article <ABL.93Jan8201842@cybill.inesc.pt>, by abl@cybill.inesc.pt (Antonio Leal):
>> 
>> [Haldeman's Forever War did have mixed outfits;  then, over the centuries,
>> first homosexuality became the moral standard, and then Earth became the
>> province of a single "perfect" genotype, cloned a million fold.  That's
>> probably an object lesson ;-]
>>
>>Could you elaborate on that?  Basically, I'd say it proves Haldeman
>>was more flexible in his assumptions than Heinlein was.  Nothing in
>>that book says the trend is inevitable.  Nothing in that book suggests
>>that enforced homosexuality (quite as repulsive as enforced
>>heterosexuality, and indeed portrayed that way) has anything to do
>>with mixed combat units.

>I don't think (IMHO) it proves that Haldeman was more flexible in his
>assumptions than Heinlein was. It just proves that they extrapolated
>their modern times in different ways.  Homosexuality wasn't as open
>during RAH's Starship Trooper's time as it was when Haldeman wrote
>The Forever War.  And both are equally valid predictions of what the
>future could be, and that doesn't mean that either of them is what
>the authors would *like* the future to be. - Chuck

If I remeber correctly - the shift to universal homosexuality
in Forever War was a population control measure:  homosexuality
produces less children.  The end result was 'genetic cleansing'
except amoungst the early entrants into the service. It was also
coupled with medical and social service rationing (Mandella's 
mom was on the not to treat list) - more population control.

-- 
Pyotr aka Peter D. Hampe : eka pyotr@halcyon.com
Next Month's Panel: Us and Them - Eliminating Them.
America: how Dan Quayle spells 'amerika'.
EOF
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: A sort-of apology to Mr. Stein
Date: 7 Jan 93 02:39:32 GMT

Recently, in <1k1xBw#9ZnLNX47mK9d9VRl0YB5Fjg2=esr@snark.thyrsus.com>, I wrote:
> When you've read the standard sources and can demonstrate that you command at
> least the relevant *facts* of SF's history and development, I will be happy to
> debate interpretations with you.

Hm.  Reading back over this, I guess I need to make clear that it was *not*
intended as sarcasm or condescension.  It's a serious offer that I hope Mr.
Stein will take me up on, one I wouldn't necessarily make to a lot of people.

Mr. Stein: if you were offended by this, I apologize -- I wasn't kidding
about respecting your intelligence.  I guess I even owe Bret Jolly some thanks;
obnoxious pimple though he's being, he did motivate me to go back and look
at what I'd written with a critical eye.
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Editor that hated Chalker ?
Date: 6 Jan 1993 20:34:05 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Distribution: na
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1993Jan6.200059.9682@colorado.edu>  
robertm@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (MONTGOMERY ROBERT PH) writes:
> In the introduction to _Dance Band on the Titanic_, a collection of
> short stories, Jack Chalker speaks of a particular SF editor who  
hated
> his work.  He says the editor began in the fanzines and wanted to  
be a
> Big Name Writer, but had only one good story in him.  The editor  
had
> "vilified and mocked" him and other successful SF/fantasy writers  
by
> name at a gathering of SF writers out west. (Chalker and the others
> weren't there.)  That editor is dead now, but Chalker said he  
"spent
> 7 years gratuitously attacking [Chalker] in person and in print."
> He was a "good editor" and died young, but Chalker thought he was
> an "asshole."
> 
> Questions:
> 1) Who was that editor?

I'm not sure, but some of the clues may point to Terry Carr. Carr
died young and he never published any Chalker that I know of. (He
was a very good editor, and showed good taste in most of
his aquisitions.)  Carr, however, wrote more than one good story,
though most of his fiction is relatively unknown.  

I have heard of Chalker doing this sort of thing before: 
critizing others, based on the "my stories make more money
than XXX's, so what do those folks who say XXX is better know." 
I have heard that he is known to grumble about the Campbell
award, which he lost to Lisa Tuttle I believe, saying: 
"Well, where is SHE now? And look how much money I make."


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Chester)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 11 Jan 93 04:23:17 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX


The butler did it.


 

Hit 'n' now to avoid an obnoxious sig thingie.

Subject: Patrick Chester            | This is your Ship:                       
Age: NOYB                           |                ,,,__________.           
Address: A place                    |          |--/****************\_           
Email:wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu    |          |-<###################>        
Political Views: Somewhere in orbit |             ///  ~~~~{}~~~~~'''         
Blackmarks: Politically Incorrect   |            ///        [---              
(hobbies)   Anime/Star Trek Otaku   | <@@@@@@@@@@@@@>                         
            Technophile             |    (not much w/ this sort of text)       
            Netrekker (claypigeon)  |                                         
Recommendation: Ignore              | This is your Ship after fighting the Borg:
   (not worth shoot-on-sight orders)| <*****BOOOOOM*****>   Any questions?    
-- 
<***** INSERT LAWSUIT DEFLECTION TEXT*****> 

I speak (type actually) for myself only. Even if I did decide to 
speak for UT, no one would listen. 

Flame away, I don't bleedin' care...
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pnh@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
Subject: Re: Xenocide (O S Card)
Organization: fwa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:28:28 GMT

Interesting that David Allsop spotted the line in SPEAKER about how Ender &
Novinha "set about the task with a will" -- the task of having kids of their
own.

It didn't get a lot of notice, but back in the fall of '91 we put out
simultaneous hardcover & trade pb "author's preferred text" editions of
ENDER'S GAME and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD.  The changes are relatively few, but
Scott did in fact delete that line from SPEAKER, so it's more in line with
XENOCIDE, I guess.

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden       :      senior editor, Tor Books
pnh@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * GEnie: PNH * opinions mine
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Mercedes Lackey list
From: cbjuland@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: 6 Jan 93 09:47:58 CST
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City
NNTP-Posting-Host: vax1.umkc.edu

What ever happened to the Mercedes Lackey list that was around for 
one newsletter.  I got mail before Christmas that there was a new
moderator, but he hasn't sent out a word...

Any info would be appreciated.  

Chris Bjuland
cbjuland@umkcvax1
cbjuland@vax1.umkc.edu
From: jonathan@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Mr J J Trevor)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The "Death Gate" Cycle
Date: 11 Jan 93 09:54:05 GMT
Organization: Department of Computing at Lancaster University, UK.

In article <30010@castle.ed.ac.uk> emeu09@castle.ed.ac.uk (Mech Eng Student) writes:
>
>   I was wondering if there was anyone else out there who is reading the Death
>Gate cycle by the most variable of authors Weiss and Hickman.  If so could you
>add your opinions to these questions.  Thanks in advance.
>
>1)  What is the dog?  The only person who doesn't know seems to be Haplo.
>   My guess is that it is a representation of Haplo's "soft" emotions.
>

Dunno yet. Maybe.

>2)  Who is Zifnab (Fizban, Paladine, whatever) REALLY and what's he doing here?
>
>3)  Where did the dragons come from?
>
>4)  Is Alfred really the Serpent Mage?
>

I think that questions two and four are related. Please bear in mind Ive
only read upto and including Firesea and not Serpent Mage. However, at
the end of the second book it turns out that Zifnab (Fizban as stated
above hahaha) was the FAMILIAR to the dragon and not the other way
around as you may have expected. Im which case surely the Serpent mage
is the dragon (a kind of "serpent") who performs magic through Zifnab.

Anyway, this may be completely turned on its head by Serpent Mage!!!

Jonathan


-- 
___________
  |onathan   Phone: +44 524 65201 x3793 Address:Department of Computing
'-'________    Fax: +44 524 381707              Lancaster University
            E-mail: jonathan@comp.lancs.ac.uk   Lancaster, Lancs., U.K.
From: as232@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael Lerner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Tubb/Dumarest
Date: 9 Jan 1993 06:29:37 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


This series was recommended to me, but is it even in print?  Is it worth
the trouble to track down Tubb's works?

Thanks,
Mike
-- 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: wilder@nx20.mik.uky.edu (jeff wilder)
Subject: Re: Bait & Switch (was re: Who killed SF?)
    <1ii93mINN8s9@agate.berkeley.edu> <1993Jan8.081012.1@bb1t.monsanto.com>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Path: nx20.mik.uky.edu!wilder
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:20:33 GMT

|> Maybe we can start a new thread.  Can anyone think of a cover/blurb 
|> combination that led you to think a book was SF (or fantasy) when it
|> was actually fantasy (or SF)?

Anne McCaffrey's DelRey _Dragonriders_of_Pern_ paperbacks are pretty
ambiguous.  Flaming dragons?  In fact, _The_White_Dragon_ describes
itself on the back cover as "A fantasy of a time when..." or something
like that.  The books are pretty solidly SF.  (Whether they're *good*
SF or not is up to the individual. :-)

--
==============================================================================
| Jeff W  uk06666@ukpr.uky.edu | Meddle not in the affairs of cats, for they |
| Wilder  & wilder@mik.uky.edu | are subtle, and will piss on your cyberdeck.|
==============================================================================
From: morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Elmo the Stunt Elk)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Start alt.fantasy-- was Who killed SF?
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: 10 Jan 93 15:57:17 -0600
Organization: The Eekcidental Tourist
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalo.fnal.gov

chuq@Apple.COM (Crow's Friend Timmy) writes:
> morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Elmo the Stunt Elk) writes:
> 
>>	Nope.  Alvin Maker is alternate history, and that's solidly SF.  So
>>there's magic involved?  BFD.  It's more SF than fantasy IMHO.
> 
> IMHO, what you HO is pretty silly. Magic is magic. Alternate history is
> alternate history, and that doesn't make it SF or Fantasy as a genre, even
> if alternate history is considered SF in terms of marketing category. So is
> Fantasy.

	Well, I disagree--I tend to think that at least one class of
straight SF answers the question "What if X happens?"  Alternate history is 
thus, in my definition, SF--"What if Abraham Lincoln didn't die?  What if
the Roman Empire never fell?" etc.
	Now, in my reading Alvin Maker, the alternate history dominates: 
The different political structure and different Native-to-English
tranliterations demonstrate this.  In part, this was because magic worked,
but this evolution of American colonial history is not different solely
because magic worked.  What magic there is, is also not central to the
content of the books; magic influences, but magic does not engender, the
conflicts.
	I'll admit that the third book has a lot more fantasy content than
the first two, the same as I'll admit that my "real" opinion isn't that
Alvin Maker is "pure" SF.
	But that merely serves to underscore my point even further, which
is that no two people are going to successfully agree on a demarcation line
between SF and fantasy; too many works trod the line, and people vary too
widely in their location of the line.  In this particular case, I put Alvin
Maker somewhat on the SF side of the line, while the original poster
(apparently supporting alt.fantasy) declared it to be unquestioned fantasy.
	In short, I still maintain that USENET does not need an artificial
separation.
	I'm curious, though:  What is a non-SF alternate history, other
than possibly Alvin Maker?  Maybe the Clancy books?
	(Arguendo:  post-Verne, so that we can stipulate contemporary
unequivocal SF, and ignoring marketing in favor of content (Vonnegut's
"Galapagos" is manifestly SF, but you'd never get his publisher to admit
that.))
-- 
"I'm not afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens."        
--Woody Allen                                                                  
  
elmo (morrow@physics.rice.edu,morrow@fnal.fnal.gov)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Help, Locating Novel (The Invasion of Mars)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:25:31 GMT

In article <16B54B2B9.D2KAK@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU> D2KAK@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU writes:
> About 24 years ago I found a book in the local bookstore which was
> a continuation of H.G. Wells War of the Worlds. I don't remember the
> authors name, but the forward was written by Forrest J. Ackerman. The
> title of the book was (The)? Invasion of Mars.I would like to find a copy

Probably Garrett P. Serviss's THE INVASION OF MARS (a.k.a. EDISON'S
INVASION OF MARS).

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"To make the point [that homosexuals hamper military effectiveness] I'd
say that you would have to sift through your military history till you
find an instance in which failure has been attributed to the presence
of homosexuals on the losing side.  I'm not aware of any such case in
the past 2500 years, but I'd be interested to hear what you find."
-Nathan Engle
From: sa121@cl.cam.ac.uk (S. Arrowsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Gripping Hand
Date: 9 Jan 93 17:36:44 GMT
Reply-To: SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk
Organization: Glad to be Sad

In article <6289@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at> mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner) writes:
>From article <C0K1qL.D1w@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, by jroberts@morpheus.UWaterloo.ca (J. P. Robertson):
>> Puppeteers repropduce in a rather complex fashion, as I recall.  I think
>> it was in Ringworld Engineers we learn that there are three sexes, one
>> of which is non-sentient.  Call the two sentients male and female.  
>
>Wasn't the hindmost female?
>
The sentient pupeteers describe themselves as "male," refering to the
non-sentient hosts as "female," hence have egg-producing and sperm-
producing males (I'm not at all convinced by the biological liklihhood
of this, but never mind).  If I remember rightly, Nessus was of the 
latter and the Hindmost the former.  Possibly they adopted this
terminology to make them more understandable to all non-human races,
which have this non-sentient female/sentient male divide (Ringworld
Engineers is the best reference on this, I think.)

--
\S
SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk | "Internet is so big, so powerful and pointless that for
        ___         |  some people it is a complete substitute for life."
        \X/         |     -- Andrew Brown, The Independent