From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (coram populo)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: But it is OK to coerce certain groups...
Date: 27 Jan 1993 18:36:36 GMT
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <1993Jan27.073620.1477@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>
>Kulaks, Jews, inetllectuals, petite bourgouise, etc.
>
>Now, of those groups and those like them, throughout history, let's see
>who took what from whom:
>
>Groups that were/are a victim of the State:
>    About several zillion.
>

You mean a very very large indefinite amount... well if we are talking
about 10 20 30 million, 10 20 30 billion, it would be clearer, unless
you can't come up with the exact figure.

We also need to know which states we are talking about.  And what is
the cause/effect relationships between the state and business at that
particular time. For exmaple, Roman state probably caused the death
of alot of people, but intertwined in all of that was, business people
in the background manipulating the state to insure protection for their
own wealth, and to create conditions to gain even more.


>Groups that were/are a victim of something other than the State:
>    About zero.

British citizens during the Industrial Revolution- but oh no, those
business people were doing them a favor, exploiting their labor,paying
them nearing nothing, pushing them into ghettos, etc. No problem here.

I suggest that you take some time and understand what has happened during
the last 2000 years when it comes to people transacting business, and
how people were victimized.

>
>
>WHO liquidated the kulaks? The State.
>
>WHO decimated the Jews? The State.

Are you sure that only 10% of the entire population was/has been killed-
or do you not understand the use of decimate?

>
>WHO attacks the Kurds? The State.

And each other- and religious fanatics.

>
>Who <hurts/kills> the <insert minority here>? The State.

>Who <hurts/kills> the <insert minority here>? <insert favorite corporation here>
>
>
>
>How many people has Exxon murdered? Zero.

Unknown and it might a delayed responses- they did poison the coast
of Alaska- Nah! they were doing us a favorite. 

>How many people has US Steel murdered? Zero.

Could have been killed in Steel factory because of unsafe (knowingly)
conditions.

>How many people has GM murdered? Zero.

Well if we were to look at cars that were created unsafely (knowingly)
maybe a lot.

>How many people has IBM murdered? Zero.

Unknown- it is possible that what IBM created has caused the death of
people.  

Is this enough conceptual chaining to satisfy you.

And in all of the above examples you have left out the most obvious 
connection that these corporations have, and that is with the State
or government with which they "do their dealings"... So, by association
alone, they are guilty of all of these murders that you speak of, that
these states have perpetrated.

Let's think about all of the large corporations that have run to the
protection of the State.  

>
>
>
>How many people has the US, the UK, Germany, Japan, Russia, China, Vietnam,
>Korea, Italy, ..., murdered (let's say, just the last 93 years)?
>
>50 million? 100 million? 
>
>

The US is the people, Japan is the people, Italy is the people.

GM, IBM, Exxon are made of these people.

Do I therefore disconnect the people from what the state does, when
they are in their businesses, do I disconnect the people from the
businesses, when they are involved in their State?

You are the one who made all the fuss about people who cannot make or
keep conceptual connectivity, and therefore make connections between
elements that appear to be different.

Afterall, the State is the State and a business is a business, and there
is no connection whatsoever.

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