From: dah@tko.vtt.fi (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Out Of Context Zohar Passage Clarified
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:15:37 GMT
Organization: VTT

In article <9210141504.AA19130@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>David Harwood originally wrote:
>
>> (vii) I suppose that some rabbis, and other Jews of some circles and
>> sects in history, have also alterred texts and promulgated falsehoods
>> as well, for religous reasons.
>
>I asked if he had the following in mind:
>
>>> 2. that they intentionally promulgated what they knew were falsehoods,
>>>   but did it anyway for religious reasons...
>
>> I said "I suppose" - so I am remarking on human nature, especially when
>> sectarian religious prejudices are involved. Also, you suppose that I have
>> #1 or #2 in mind, when I think both are true sometimes.
>
>This is a common fallacy found in Urban Folklore.  "Human nature is
>such that it *could* have happened, therefore I believe that it
>*must* have happened."
>
\\\\\\\

Actually, I never infer with your Urbane Folks, modally or otherwise.
And the more common fallacy is prejudice. However, a lesson in logic 
cannot remedy this.

My belief is based on own experience of human nature as well as 
reading of religious history. Possibly my judgment about this is wrong, 
but I doubt it. Who knows - we may well find out some day.

Otherwise, I was simply correcting your previous mistaken inference
about what I was supposed to believe - either #1 (which you omitted)
or #2.

>>  If you need examples, you can find such (textual and ideological)
>> contradictions within Jewish traditions, among sectarians. And you can
>> find recriminations (even Maimonides was excommunicated by some rabbis
>> and communities) among sincere peoples. Some thought M- was
>> promulgating false religion.(!)
>
>You've described an incorrect accusation of promulgating falsehood,
>not evidence that such insincere promulgation actually happened.

\\\\\\\\\\
Bad guess (or inference) again - since I never intended to suggest this 
was "evidence that such *insincere* promulgation actually happened."

I meant that there were textual and ideological contradictions among
religious sects, promulgated by adherents. If you do not know of any,
I am still unimpressed ;-) Anyway, M- was involved in the latter 
(ideological contradiction with opponents). I did not intend to
suggest that M- or his opponents were religiously insincere, or dishonest
otherwise. 

I think you are too ready to draw prejudiced (and wrong) inferences
about what I said or think. Of course, we will disagree ;-)


>
>>	 With respect to Jews and Christians, some things said by 
>> both in their religious writings are derogatory, moreover untrue, and 
>> other things are unfair criticisms. While some many people may sincerely 
>> believe these things, others do not but use them anyway because of their
>> hatred of others...
>
>Go ahead, post some examples of Jews whose hatred was such that they
>nefariously altered texts and promulgated falsehoods.  If you do have
>examples, let's see them, or at least pointers to them.  If you don't,
>then why believe that it happened?
>
>Rob
>
\\\\\\\\\

Why don't you go ahead and reread what I actually said without making
prejudiced inferences?

To straighten you out - you yourself posted articles, initiating this
series of responses, of an anonymous friend, you call an "expert," 
which were all of - derogatory, untrue, and unfairly critical. (He 
wasn't nefarious, just deliberately ignorant.)

You yourself promulgated his views, in unfair criticism of someone else.
And whether or not your motives are religiously sincere, or representative
of orthodox Judaism, I believe you are less concerned with truth than 
motivated by religious prejudice against those Jews who call themselves
Messianic Jews (quite logically enough ;-)

You are witness for what I said.

(I believe I already said that I do not believe that orthodox Jewish
or Christian authorities of history insincerely (nefariously or otherwise) 
alterred or otherwise missrepresented essential texts. (They editted, or
marked them, according with their sincere religious beliefs or prejudices.)
As for pointers to the history of Jewish sectarian disputes (Samaritans, 
Kairites, b-S Tov, etc)  -> there is your library. It is appalling that
anti-missionaries should know as much about Christianity as about Judaism ;-)
For your information, there are international electronic discussions among 
academic scholars of Jewish religious literature, Jews and others, concerned
even right now with issues of new proposed critical editions of Hebrew
texts of books of the Bible, MT and other (evidently) more ancient versions.
However, these discussions are not public, I believe; moreover, you would
seem probably not be interested. Anyway, it is evident that various texts
are to be found, sometimes among sectarians, sometimes even among "the
orthodox" presumed of various times.)

Enough of this, though.
D.H.