From: schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CHAMBERLAND S - BIOLOGY)
Subject: Re: When do we stop being outsiders? (WAS Re: The Journal on ...)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 01:21:02 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.015743.15715@unixg.ubc.ca> lermer@theory.chem.ubc.ca (Noah Lermer) writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.011017.17271> schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CHAMBERLAND S - BIOLOGY) writes:
>>jkramer@sunwise.UWaterloo.ca (Viscous Pig Dog) writes:
>>>audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>>>>(Craig Campbell) writes:
>>>>>Well, for one Quebec is not a nation. 
>>>>
>>>>Of course Quebec is a nation!
>>>
>>>Did I miss the smileys?
>>
>>No, no smileys were required. Most of French Quebeckers on this net will
>>say it: we ARE a nation.
>>
>>This distinct society thing was accepted by Quebec federalists because
>>TROCians could not accept the idea of "nation".
>
>I've always felt that the english usage of the word "nation" was very different
>from the francais <<nation>>.
>
> In english, it almost always has the same meaning as country, i.e., a
>  political and legal as well as cultural entity.
> In french, I've always understood it to mean more of a cultural unit;
>  you can be <<une nation>> without being a contry (nation != pays). Probably
>  a better translation (IMHO) would be a people, as in the Quebec People.
>
>  I remeber being very confused (confus) when I first learned this!

I was too. I looked into the dictionary today. Here's the result:

nation(french): groupe humain, generalement assez vaste, qui se caracterise 
                par la conscience de son unite et la volonte de vivre en
  	    	commun. Voir PEUPLE.

ou              groupe humain constituant une communaute politique,
		etablie sur un territoire defini ou un ensemble de
territoires definis, et personnifiee par une autorite SOUVERAINE.
voir ETAT, PAYS, PUISSANCE
(Le petit Robert)

nation(english): a community of people composed of one or more NATIONALITIES
     		and possessiong a more or less defined territory and
		government.  (Webster's)

Obviously, both definitions are not equal. We *definitely* qualify for
the "french" nation. But in english, a nation can be formed of one or
more NATIONALITIES.

Well, for the first time, I understand the concept of "la grande nation
canadienne". Nation formed of 2 nationalities at least...
But sorry, I will stick to my definition of nation...

Anyway, here is the definition of NATIONALITY (Webster's):

a people having a common origin, tradition, and language, and CAPABLE OF
FORMING OR ACTUALLY CONSTITUTING A NATION-STATE.

Interesting, isn't it?  The definition of NATIONALITY looks a lot
like the definition of "nation" in French...

But most of all, we definitely qualify for the definition of nationality
in english and nation in french, and on both sides, you cannot
dismiss the possibility of us forming a country...
In the definition of "nationalite'", they speak of the principle of
the nationalities, in which these groups (nationalities) have the right
to form a politically autonomous state...
(And the definition is identical)

>On a related note, I also feel that this is one of the problems english-speaking
>Canada has with the phrase "distinct". In english this connotes being "better"
>to my ears. For example, being "someone of distinction" means being (recognised
>as) better than your fellows. In french, <<distinct>> seems to me to translate
>much more closely to "different". A "different society" clause and "distinct
>socitey" clause seem very different.

Distinct(Webster's): dinstiguishable to the eye or mind as discrete:
 			SEPARATE   <a ~ cultural group>
                     unquestionable: <a ~ possibility of snow>
  				  <a ~ British accent>

Looks A LOT like the french definition.
I don't see anywhere that "distinct" means better. When you say
"distinct possibility of snow", does it mean that the possibility
is superior?  Or that in the above definition, the British accent is
superior?

Sorry, but both English and French dictionaries say exactly the same
thing. So the problem is not in the translation...


Sylvain Chamberland
schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu

Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada