HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: A@A
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: SF roleplaying-fave system
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:10:48 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University

In article <3461@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)  
writes:
>
>	My favorite SF system is Space Opera (FGU, almost but not quite
>dead yet). The bugs in the system can be worked around fairly easily, 
>it works with OR without the detail supplied (the rules are applicable
>at different levels of complexity), the Star Sector atlases are the 
>best stuff ever produced for any space game, and it has the best psionics
>system of any game, period.
>
>                                 Sea Wasp
>                                   /^\
>                                   ;;;
	Yeah I like it too: I use it as source material for Hero.  SO?
And people think Hero combat rules are cumbersome.  Still the only system I  
know that you can get slugged to death, but a non-lethal blow from a hi-tech  
weapon will knock you out.

John J Cassidy		Cassidy@cps.msu.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: SF or FF (Future Fantasy)?
Date: 29 Jul 92 05:45:27 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

> I have seen the term "Science Fantasy" for very 'soft' SF used in a number of
> places.

The problem with that term is the word "science".  Shows like Star Wars have
some of the trappings associated with SF, but lack the scientific basis of SF.
That's why I suggest using a term that doesn't have "science" in it.

> There is a vast grey area in here which is where most SF lies.

True, but if you add even one more category, such as Future Fiction, you narrow
the grey area.  It might be good to have three categories: FF, SF, and Hard SF
(or a better term).  Then anything that is definitely in one of the extreme
categories can be easily distinguished from other SF.

Some people like one extreme and dislike another.  If a gamer disliked FF, he
could avoid buying a SF rpg that was actually a FF rpg.  Having three terms
would also make discussions easier.  :)

> The typical 'fantasy' elements that I can think of include FTL drives, fusion
> reactors, high-temperature superconductors, super-strong monofilaments, and
> psionics. All of these are generally introduced as "X is based on currently
> unknown theoretical principles", but nothing else is changed because of that.
> I.E. Fusion reactors work this way, but nothing else is changed.

Fusion reactors don't fit in that category, since it is based on proven
science.  We could probably make a working reactor now, though it wouldn't make
economic sense.  All we really need are improvements in materials, though some
new power conversion devices (lasers, microwave generators, etc) would help a
lot too.  Postulating a black box 1m^3 with heat coming out one side and
electricity out the other is a different matter altogether.  ;)

If you postulate the fusion box above and have it work in a vacuum without a
large heat radiator, then you have a flaw in your science.

I think it's sufficient to use present predictions of gradual improvements. For
instance, you can say that you character in 2050 wears a wrist computer with
the capabilities of a present mainframe, and few people will question that.
For true SF, you should apply that technology to all appropriate parts of
everyday life (ie. your toilet might have more computer power than your present
home computer).

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: sjm8118@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Psionics
Reply-To: sjm8118@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:09:29 GMT

      Does anyone else out there think that psionics is the copout of a SF 
world designer that cannot work within the framework of his own SF world's
technology to provide a good story/adventure?

                                  Scott McDonough
From: laird@think.com (Laird Popkin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Generating races...
Date: 25 Jul 1992 19:21:15 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: django.think.com

In article <BryIvG.1ty@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> jszeder@descartes.uwaterloo.ca (John Szeder) writes:
>Greetings fellow roleplayers...after much fun in the fantasy genre,
>and a brief excursion into sci-fi with megatraveller, I find that I
>want to start a sci-fi campaign where race design is possible.
>
>A friend of mine suggested that gurps would be the way to go, but before 
>I blindly stumble into GURPS, I was wondering which systems have good
>rules and comprehensive race generation.

GURPS Uplift has a *very* good system for generating alien races, working
up from their pre-intelligent animal form.  The resulting races are
interesing and believable (IMHO, of course).

GURPS Aliens also has alien race generation rules, but they're more along
the lines of the 'tell us what you want, and we'll tell you the mechanics
and how many points it costs' than rules for designing races.

>Also, if I do go into gurps, which books and supplements will I
>require to make this campaign viable?

You *need* the GURPS Basic Set.  To save yourself a lot of work, you will
probably also want GURPS Space.  Beyond that it depends on the type of
campaign you want.  The Aliens book is good for building alien races.
Uplift includes some (IMHO again) fascinating material about Brin's
"uplift" universe, and has great race generation rules.  The Space Bestiary
has many interesting creatures in it.  Terradyne describes an interesting
newr-future solar system dominated by "the corporation", which you might
want to play in, or if you liked the Pip and Flynx books by Alan Dean
Foster, Humanx is worth checking out.  For a book on advanced technology
(weaponry, etc.) GURPS Ultra-Tech is what you want.  But if you have a
universe designed that you want to play in, and the sorts of alien races
that exist, the Basic Set and Aliens are sufficient.


>A little man with a big eraser..
>John Szeder
>
>jszeder@descartes.waterloo.edu
>
>E-mail responses would be appreciated...but go ahead and waste bandwidth 8-)
> 


-- 
- Laird Popkin, Thinking Machines

Connection Machine: Massively parallel supercomputer.  Also a cool black
cube with more blinking lights than you can shake a stick at.
From: a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: SF or FF (Future Fantasy)?
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:54:28 CST
Distribution: world
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <13874@mindlink.bc.ca>, Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
> 
> The third [psionics] does contradict fundamental theories.  If telepathy
> provides a means of inducing a chemical reaction in one brain at a distance,
> without using a known force, why hasn't it been observed already?  Such a
> powerful basic force should be observable elsewhere, at least in other chemical
> reactions.  Such a force that we haven't observed yet is no less likely than a
> way around the lightspeed limit.  I haven't been following the GUT debates, so
> I can't comment on how likely anti-gravity is considered now, though last I
> heard it was still definitely impossible.

	Ahh, but what if it *has* been discovered already? But just how
do you think people would react to a scientist who claimed that he had 
discovered psychic energy? Also, since most scientists don't believe
psionics exist, how would they know what to look for? It wouldn't be too
hard to believe that someone has already stumbled across it, thought it
was something else, and went on with other research.
From: PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: HERO vs. GURPS
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:44:37 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <4817@armltd.uucp> dseal@armltd.co.uk writes:

> >And, contrary to GURPS belief, realism hardly makes a system 'universal.'
> 
> I don't think this is "GURPS belief". GURPS frequently abandons realism for
> the sake of universality - simple examples being magic and psionics. The
> main emphasis on realism in GURPS is not really on being realistic all the
> time, but on knowing when you are being realistic and when you're not (e.g.
> consider the emphasis in GURPS Martial Arts and some others on telling you
> when a skill/advantage/whatever is "cinematic"). Knowing this is useful: it
> helps tell both the GM and the players when they can rely on their common
> sense, and when they may have to think out exactly how the world works.

In the rundown of the word GURPS (Generic Universal Role Playing System), when
it gets to the word Universal, GURPS boldly declares that it is Universal 
because it is realistic.  No joke.  Right out of the front of my GURPS book.
(Admittedly, 3rd ed, but I don't think GURPS philosophy has changed in 1 ed.)
This is the base of GURPS: being realistic makes you able to make correct
decisions, which leads to being universal.  I obviously think that this is
a crock of shit.

-james
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jszeder@descartes.uwaterloo.ca (John Szeder)
Subject: Generating races...
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 18:18:51 GMT

Greetings fellow roleplayers...after much fun in the fantasy genre,
and a brief excursion into sci-fi with megatraveller, I find that I
want to start a sci-fi campaign where race design is possible.

A friend of mine suggested that gurps would be the way to go, but before 
I blindly stumble into GURPS, I was wondering which systems have good
rules and comprehensive race generation.

Also, if I do go into gurps, which books and supplements will I
require to make this campaign viable?

A little man with a big eraser..
John Szeder

jszeder@descartes.waterloo.edu

E-mail responses would be appreciated...but go ahead and waste bandwidth 8-)
From: jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hero System for anything but supers
Date: 23 Jul 92 15:51:38 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <1992Jul23.021151.178@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>> Hold it, 15 is hardly an "average" weapon skill in GURPS.  I suspect you've
>> seen some real power-gamers at it with GURPS, since I've RARELY seen a
>> starting character with even ONE stat of 15, and never played one with a
>> stat of 15... and I've been playing GURPS for about four years.
>
>	About the only time I've seen 15+ for starting characters in a combat
>skill is either for a Guns-type skill (that gets an IQ bonus) or a character 
>based on 150 or more points.
>	I *always* make sure I have a literate character. I tend to balance
>stats on characters, with most running from 11-13 (I spend about 60-80 points
>on stats).




Interesting...


In the campaign I run, any character who is a "professional" fighting-type
of some sort or another has begun with a 15 in at least one combat skill, 
maybe two, rarely three.  (I run a TL3 fantasy campaign, by the way.)

Of course, literacy is VERY rare in this group as well.  (Only three
characters out of twelve are literate--yes, this has posed problems,
but it FITS THE CHARACTER CONCEPTIONS.)

As for attributes, the highest (human) attribute I've seen is a 17 in IQ,
but the player is a serious hack-n-slasher.  Too bad you can't hose down
armies with magic in GURPS like you can in D&D (hee hee hee hee hee hee hee).
However, this is a unique situation, a more typical maximum I would say
is either fourteen or fifteen (excluding the two "grunt-species" PC's who
have a ST of 20--but they tend to have difficulty with a lot of other things).

However, I would say that any character starting out in my campaign (100
points--"standard" level) will have a skill level or levels of 15 or so
IN THEIR SPECIALTY.  In other words, what on earth is wrong for a character
who is "hero material" to have actually gained some serious competence in
their special field?
From: jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Why the hell does anyone ever play anything at all?
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:14:04 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center



Okay, once again we get to hear how "utterly irredeemable" GURPS is.
Later, we're going to get to hear how "utterly irredeemable" Hero is.
Eventually, Ryk Spoor is going to pipe up and say that both games are the
spawn of Satan because they DARE to not use the Holy Dice for the Sacred
Task of Character Generation.  In response, we'll have several mildly
coherent flames of "dice-generation systems" which are all assumed to be
by-the-book *D&D by the posters.

Meanwhile, the GURPS/Hero war will go on, with the Hero side saying "Hero
is realistic, so there!" and the other side saying "Hero isn't, so there!"
Then we'll get into everybody's pet peeve over various systems, all of 
which are put out under the egotistical and immature assumption of
"If your tastes don't agree with mine, then you're inferior, or at very
least, what you like is inferior."


Guess what, kiddies, ALL GAMES ARE UNREALISTIC!!!!

ALL GAMES HAVE BAD RULES!!!!
ALL GAMES ARE THE ABSOLUTE WORST GAMES EVER WRITTEN, AND I CAN COME UP WITH
AT LEAST TEN PEOPLE TO BACK ME UP ON EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM!!!!!!!!!


The argument is everlasting and is nothing more than re-iteration of:

"Is so!"
"Is not!"
"Is so!"
"Is not!"

et cetera et cetera et cetera.


To be blunt, the whole thing comes down to TASTE.  I happen to adore
sashimi, but I understand if others don't.  I think that a jalapeno pepper
(full pepper, cut into slices) is just the right amount of seasoning for a
bowl of chili.  Not a kettle of chili, a bowl.  I understand if others
don't like things that way.  I don't pontificate on how my food is "superior"
because it has more jalapeno than others'.  I challenge anyone to lay down
a universally acceptable standard of taste.


I run what I run for may reasons, primarily that it manages to best model the
game world I want as I want to see it.  If I had a different view of things,
I'd probably change systems.  Furthermore, I NEVER run anything "out of the 
box", I just go for a closest approximation.


Does anybody get the point here?
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jen@athena.mit.edu (Jennifer Hawthorne)
Subject: Re: HERO vs. GURPS
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:09:03 GMT

In article <Bs27t8.Mx3@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> joshua salter <jsalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>
>	Which is better, (and for what)? HERO or GURPS?
>
>								-jsalter

Oh boy, flame bait!  I can't resist.

Which is better? Depends on what you want to use them for.  One
person's opinion:  For superheroes, use HERO (CHAMPIONS).  For most
other types of games, use GURPS.  I've played and GMed both systems
quite a bit, though naturally I haven't played every genre GURPS
offers.  I think HERO does a better job giving a strong
comic-book/cinematic flavor to a game, if that's what you're looking
for.  If you want something more "street-level" and realistic, GURPS
is clearly superior.  (The biggest shock to both my players and myself
when we went from a CHAMPIONS campaign to a GURPS campaign was how
easy it was for our cherished characters to simply _die_, suddenly and
with little warning; the level of bloodiness built into GURPS took a
fair bit of getting used to after the comic-book-based CHAMPIONS
combat system.)

Or you can combine them:  I had a lot of fun running a space-opera
style game using CHAMPIONS mechanics while cribbing heavily from GURPS
Space to design nearly every other aspect of the campaign.

Jen H.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dqk412@kepler.unh.edu (David Q Kennard)
Subject: Re: Psionics
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:42:14 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.170929.1436@ultb.isc.rit.edu> sjm8118@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>      Does anyone else out there think that psionics is the copout of a SF 
>world designer that cannot work within the framework of his own SF world's
>technology to provide a good story/adventure?
>
>                                  Scott McDonough

Does anyone else out there think that SF technology is a copout of a
world designer who cannot work within the framework of his own world's
base principles to provide a good story/adventure/characterization?

Dave Kennard
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Psionics
Date: 29 Jul 92 05:49:05 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

> Ullrich Fischer writes:
> 
>+ Guns don't kill people, the attitude that violence is ok, that guns are fun
>+ neat things as long as you are responsible and know how to use them -- that
>+ is what kills people.
> 
> Whaaat?  I really don't think that the statistics about what sort of people
> use guns to kill other people will support your claim.  There are a few
> deaths from people who have responsible attitudes towards guns, and the
> possession of guns by those people increases the chance of the wrong people
> getting hold of a gun, but I expect that a lot of the deaths by guns (war
> aside) is by people who view guns as power, and using guns obtained through
> other channels.
> 
>+ Sure the water cannons don't look like Uzis, but there have already been a
>+ few incidents in the US (the mother of all trendsetters) where kids have
>+ been killed after squirting someone with these water thingees.
> 
> All the more reason to show the kids when it is okay to use them (at a park
> in the daytime) and explain when it is not okay to use them (or anything that
> resembles a gun).
> 
>+ It is true that the glorification of violence on TV is a greater problem
>+ than waterpistols, but in some US cities, violence (with gunshot wounds
>+ ranking way up there) is the leading cause of death in males under 30 years
>+ of age.
> 
> Yup, and all those deaths would have been prevented if the parents hadn't let
> their kids play with water pistols.  :-/
> 
>+ The supersoakers are definitely part of the problem.
>+ 
>+ I would think a more effective way of having fun getting each other wet
>+ would be water balloons or just jugs of water.
> 
> Right, so according to your "water pistol play leads to real pistol killing"
> theory, the next generation of street punks will go around throwing hand
> grenades and splashing their victims with acid.
> 
> 
>+ Even then, it is important to emphasize to all involved that the soakee
>+ should be a consenting participant in the fun.
> 
> A picnic would then be a great opportunity to teach your kids that squirting
> consenting people is fun, but you shouldn't squirt non-consenting people.
> "See:  Tracy and Linda are having fun, but they're not squirting those other
> people over there.  That's the right way to have fun."
> How could you pass up such a great educational experience?  :-)
> 
--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88)
Subject: Re: HERO vs. GURPS
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:32:39 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

joshua writes:

> 	HERO's Merits			|	GURPS Merits
>    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    well-defined Characteristics +1	|   simplistic Attributes -1
>    Good combat rules	+1		|   Good combat rules	+1
>    un-scaled attribute costs	0	|   scaled attribute costs	+1
>    reasonably cost-effecient	0	|   supplements needed -1
>    not many supplements -1		|   lotsa cool supplements out +1

A few things: GURPS scaled attribute costs are only appropriate in human
normal type games, where the law of diminishing returns is in effect.  On
a simple play-balance basis, it's not so important, and not really a big
issue in the high-fantasy and superhero games.  Also, due to the fact that
each effect is scaled, not the final result, it just becomes a point-
cruncher's wonderland as players discover buying a little bit of everything
instead of lots of one.  For example, if you want to build a 'people person'
the best way to go about it is to get the +1 level of everything.  You final
result, the reaction bonus, is *not* scaled.  Therefore, this seeming 
strength of GURPS can be pretty easily loused up anyway.

At the same time, I'd not give 'simplistic Attributes' a -1 for GURPS.
I think they need a little development, but I'd still rate it at -0.

As for supplements, don't forget:

Hero: clearly lays out basic mechanics, allowing you to make your own
      supplement  +1

I find this important, as a Hero player/GM I find no problem with not having
lots of supplements.  In fact, we play Hero Startrek, Hero cinematic spies,
and Hero monster-stompers.  Further, we laid down the ideas behind Hero
cyberpunk and Hero fantasy before ever seeing those supplements.  (Cyberhero
is due soon.)

-james
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: bcd@fang.att.com (Brendan Dwyer)
Subject: Re: Reviews: Dangerous Journeys, Dreampark
Organization: AT&T Tax Systems Development, Maitland FL
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:58:45 GMT

From article <712281180@tyranno.cs.duke.edu>, by jek@duke.cs.duke.edu (James E. Kittock):
Excellent review of Dangerous Journeys from James Kittock deleted to save 
bandwidth. 

I found James Kittocks review of Dangerous Journeys to be right on the mark,
but there were a few feelings I had about the system I wanted to express.
My FRP experience consists of D&D, AD&D and GURPS.  

Dangerous Journeys lacks any kind of innovation.  With so many FRP systems on 
the market I assumed the designers would study the strengths and weaknesses
of current systems and then design something new to grab the attention of
FRP enthusiasts.  DJ offers nothing that will make you want to drop your
current favorite system and expend the time and cash on a new one.

Also, the skills and attributes seemed to me a bit vague and may cause some
confusion during play.  The way the attributes were divided and then subdivided
added complexity without enhancement.  

I found the combat and magic systems complex and confusing, but that may have
had something to do with me losing interest in the game by that point.

Overall, I think some people may find DJ works for them but most will find
the system they are already using works as well or better.  I'm glad
I was able to get a refund.

Brendan Dwyer