From: nsz@pell4l7.alleg.edu 
Subject: Re: Buying Pentagrams (Satanists / Witches are Christians)
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 07:08:58 GMT

In article <66535@cup.portal.com>  writes:
> 9209.24 e.v.
> 
> Scott Locklin (my servant of the old ones) quotes me and responds:
> 
> old Thyagi:
> 
> >This thread is supportive proof, regardless of the esoteric trash which
> >many Satanic individuals and institutions promote, that Satanism is in
> >FACT a sect of the Great Martyrdom Cult.  Carefully note the similarity
> >of emotion, of intent, and of symbolism.  Point-up?  Point-down?  All
> >of it stems from the same tradition.
> 
> 
> Scott:
> 
> Allright- I'm sick of this martyrdom fixation you have. EVERY religion  
at
> some stage or other could belong to your "Cult of Martyrdom". In fact  
_most_
> people have a strong masochistic streak (again- read the de Sade chapter  
in
> "Coincidence"- it will also give you insight into the psyche behing the 
> MAD doctrine). 
> 
> 
> Response:
> 
> I disagree. The Jewish(?)/Christian/Witch(Pagan)/Satanist line of strict
> heresy in the face of oppressive establishments is fairly isolated as  
far
> as I can see.  Hinduism and Buddhism, for example, with which I'm  
familiar,
> are the stay-at-home, chanting/starvation-types.  There is no martyrdom
> fixation in their tradition.  

	But there does tend to be a certain masochistic inclination.  

> 
> *I* am simply reflecting the martyrdom fixation which I see rampant  
within
> Western Religion and calling them as I see them.  I'm glad to have  
someone
> argue the opposite, since it is one of my pet theories which is  
currently
> bearing much theoretical fruit.
> 
> 
> Scott:
> 
> Now first; the person who posted this was a PAGAN, not a Satanist. Of  
the few
> Satanists I do know, only a few (women, interestingly enough), actually  
wear
> the traditional regalia; i.e. pentagram, all black wardrobe. These  few
> are also artists; folks who are assumed to dress nonconventionally  
anyway.
> 
> 
> Response:
> 
> No no no no no no, I'm not saying that the sects of the Martyrdom Cult
> are the same.  I wouldn't say that Catholics behave the same as  
Lutherans.
> The point is that both the Catholics and Lutherans are CHRISTIANS.  I
> think that, in similar fashion, the Witches (Pagans) and the Satanists
> are part of the Great Martyrdom Cult.  This Cult is very clever.  It
> is actually composed of some of the lowest levels of society.  When its
> expression begins to be corrupted by the orthodoxy it assumes different
> forms.
> 
	I find your theory of the Great Martyrdom Cult fascinating.  Would  
you go into more detail about it?  I would appreciate it.

> 
> Scott:
> 
> (it was a Necronomicon "pentagram"; this has nothing to do with Satanism  
& yes 
> the Necronomicon's a fake- I just liked the way the darn thing looked)
> 
	I've noticed a certain focus on how Satanists are persecuted in  
this newsgroup.  Aren't ALL religions persecuted by the ignorant?  As far  
as I have seen, it's a common occurence.

> 
> Response:
> 
> Depends on your definition of 'Satanism'.
> 
> 
> Scott:
> 
> after being educated in human nature I discontinued its use, except for  
the 
> occasional costume party, heavy metal or industrial concert, or party  
with
> real wierdos...
> 
> 
> Response:
> 
> What was your 'education'?  I'd like to hear about it.
> 
	So would I.  I have had what I would presume to be similar  
problems trying to be Christian.  I've found Christians persecute  
Christians out of ignorance.  I don't think it's something exclusive to  
Satanists.  I think human nature desires to persecute, ridicule and  
deride.  Satanism is simply one of the smallest, more radical, nationally  
known religions.  It is easier to persecute Satanists because Satanism is  
a weaker religion than Christianity.  

> 
> Scott:
> 
> [much description of what Scott associates with 'Satanism' omitted]
> 
> 
> Response:
> 
> What you describe seems to me just the current face of the  
counter-culture
> fad.  Yes, a FAD, meaning that most of the 15-25 year olds will  
eventually
> give up these behaviors/appearances and settle into more moderate,  
conserva-
> tive ways of being that conform to social standards.

	The idea of settling down into more conservative ways frightens  
me.  Is it possible I will become conservative in the future?  The very  
fact that I doubt the possibility indicates that the change has begun. How  
old are you, Thyagi? 

> 
> I'm talking about a bit larger picture here.  I'm attempting to  
understand
> what MAKES a Christian/Witch/Satanist and I think it is their individual
> power.  Resistance to oppressive authority is what all of these at one  
time
> shared.  Just because modern Satanism has not been as corrupted as has  
what
> is now called 'Christianity' doesn't make it of a different tradition.
> 
> Let me put it another way.  The Great Martyrdom Cult is DYNAMIC.  It  
doesn't
> maintain the same image/label/location.  It is INSIDIOUS.  It can never  
be
> destroyed because it transcends conscious identification.  It is  
REBELLIOUS.
> It takes on the face of the Great Enemy and plays out the energies that
> have been repressed by the Orthodoxy.   
> 
> I agree that not all those who engage modern Satanism/Witchcraft are
> martyrs.  That is not my point.  
> 
	Intriguing.  The Great Martyrdom Cult is an ever changing religion  
characterized by the negative treatment it receives from the current  
religion in power.  Have I understood you correctly? 

> 
> Scott (quoting me and responding):
> 
> >Let's call a spade a spade.  Satanists and Witches are Christians.
> 
> how come the R.C. church made bar-b-q's out of 'em? I suppose they  
didn't
> have much respect for the individual & ran outa firewood or somethin...
> 
> 
> Response:
> 
> Because the RC Church is not Christian, not in the sense of the Great
> Martyrdom Cult.  The ORIGINAL Christians, the ones who were opposed by  
the 
> Roman Pagans (yes, Pagans weren't nonviolent or nonoppressive) were
> martyrs.  When the Romans co-opted the language and behaviors of these
> martyrs (in effect, CALLING themselves Christian without adopting the
> values/theories), then the Cult submerged.  It resurfaced in Europe
> in response to the RC Church and called themselves 'Witches' (and
> even some, 'Satanists').  When this holocaust subsided the Cult  
submerged
> once more and has been recently resurfacing in the form of 'Witches',
> and more often, 'Satanists' in response to the repressive Euro-American
> Puritanism still rampant in our culture.
> 
	Could you identify any historical basis for this hypothesis?  I  
believe I understand you, but I am not convinced.  The Cult you mentioned  
doesn't seem to have any connection to the religions you mentioned other  
than by the fact that they were all persecuted by the more powerful  
religion of the time.
> 
> The germinal form of the Great Martyrdom Cult (GMC) is what I call
> The Heretics.  Satanists can be converted by a 'Church of Satan', but
> it'll take a while to co-opt 'Heretics', since 'heretics' oppose all
> doctrines and organizations, PERIOD.  You may, if you wish, see the
> GMC as 'atheists' and as 'anarchists'.  These are the Scientific and
> Political cultists, respectively.

	What you have effectively described is what I prefer to call a  
scientist:  one who believes in nothing without proof.  A scientist  
believes in no religion because religion requires faith;  a scientist  
follows no law because laws restrict individual freedom.  Is this the type  
of individual to which you are referring?

> 
> There are different stages that the Cult's forms undergo from the
> time which they resurface until they are finally completely co-opted.
> One of the first steps is the infiltration of their number with what
> are today called 'white-light, bambis' who no more have an understanding
> of what magick and social transformation is than does today's
> average college student understand political activism.

	Why do you mention college students in particular?  Do you believe  
that an increased understanding of politics only occurs after college or  
are you referring to a certain measure of maturity?  If you're referring  
to the latter, you're probably overgeneralizing. 

> 
> I hope you get a better idea what I'm talking about now.  I'd be glad
> to hear your criticism/response/praise of it.
> 
> 
> Thyagi
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> The only way to be a Satanist is to oppose all authority other than  
one's
> own.  The only variable is whether or not to take action against it.

	This statement fits very well into my definition of a scientist.   
Perhaps we are more alike than either of us would wish to believe.


Neijm eth Saddow

	I make no solid statements.  I have no firm beliefs.