From: nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:47 GMT
Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara

In article <1992Aug12.130355.5090@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#
...previous discussion deleted...
#
#Two other comments:  It IS possible to get 9mm 'subsonic' loads to 
#cut recoil even more (though it shouldn't be needed and might not
#function well in all semi-auto guns...)  A .22, like the Ruger 10/22,

The latest scoop on the "sub-sonic" 147-grain 9MM loads is that they're
pretty dangerous to your health.  Notice I said *your* health, not that
of the intended target.  Police departments everywhere are dropping it
like a hot potato because it over-penetrates, not due to its excessive
speed (it's slow) but because it's too slow to expand in the target.
Which means it punches a little tiny hole and goes on its merry way,
usually leaving the bad guy somewhat discomfited but NOT disabled, at
least not in the time frame you'd like.  There's even one case documented,
according to Ayoob I think, where a 147 bounced right off the skull of some
guy and left him with only a minor flesh wound (and, I presume, a bad
case of the angries...).

#with a couple of 50 rd. magazines can be rather effective against
#someone who has no body armour.  I have some vague memory of a story
#that claimed the favored assasins weapon for Masad? was the 22LR pistol.
                                              ^^^^^
Mossad (the Israeli CIA), and true.

#When 10 .22 LR rounds hit the target, they were substantially guaranteed
#to bleed to death.
#
#The problem with this is that your attacker may take some time to 
#bleed, and do you in while you wait...

Both true.

#The key missing piece:  Is the friend 'good' with guns?  A lever gun
#
...
#
#If the guy knows 
#guns, the semi-auto offers faster rounds/minute and more  rounds/reload
#with (initial!) faster reload from a magazine swap;  but it is 
#conceptually more complicated and not clear cut to a novice.  (There
#IS a safety that has to be delt with, which MAY look like the magazine
#release ... and could be a lethal error {I've dumped a magazine on
#the floor just last week on a foreign gun, and I've got years of
#experience}, it isn't obvious when it is 'cocked and loaded', etc.

Heh heh - if you use a Glock, you don't have to worry about dropping
the magazine inadvertently.  {:^)  For those of you who don't know what
I'm referring to, the Glock won't drop a magazine until it's somewhere
on the south side of half-full; the plastic magazine seems to "swell"
when it's loaded and friction between it and the inside of the grip
frame keeps it from moving.  You have to both press the magazine
release AND pull the magazine out by hand.  Some gunsmith in Florida,
I think, is advertising a conversion that both gives you a flared mag
well and fixes the no-drop problem - it sounds like maybe a new grip
frame to me, otherwise he's modifying the interior of the grip frame
somehow.  I saw the ad in one of the current magazines.

Also, of course, the only "manual" safety on the Glock is the little
in-the-trigger lever that you activate by squeezing the trigger.

#I'd suggest that knowing what he is good with is more important
#than owning the 'best' gun that he cannot use...

And that's maybe the best advice of all.  In the words of Ayoob, ANY
gun is better than none at all, when you need it.


Jerry Roe
jrr@nsc.nsc.com		...!{sun,pyramid,decwrl)!nsc!jrr