HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:19:54 EDT
From:         "Fritz Block, LCF Summer President" <BD32@LAFAYACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Loving leadership in the home

> I believe that the Biblical concept of headship is that a husband has
> not only the responsibility of making the final decision in cases of
> disagreement, but also to weigh carefully and prayerfully his wife's
> counsel when making such decisions.  (Men, let's not forget our mandate
> to submit ourselves to Christ - easier said than done during those times
> when our judgement is called into question... eh?)  I suspect I'm not
> the only husband who has 'seen the light' and changed his mind and
> decision accordingly.  The woman has the freedom of leaving the
> responsibility to her husband, trusting that God will guide and give
> correction where/when it's needed.

I'm not sure what "headship" entails on a practical level, but I know
that if the husband exercises headship, his responsibility entails more
than the above.  While God obviously expects both husband and wife to
love each other, the husband is told in particular to love his wife.  He
may have the final say in a disagreement and sometimes make a decision
that his wife doesn't like, but he also has to place his wife's interests
above his own.  If he keeps up his end of the arrangement, that doesn't
seem like such a bad deal to me.

What do you think?


*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
* Fritz Block    "Love is not a ballad on the top ten chart            *
* bd32@lafayacs   Love is not a virus from cupid's dart                *
* 215-250-8031    Love is not a promise that you tear apart            *
* Lafayette Col.  Love is a commitment heart to heart" -- Larry Norman *
*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:38:24 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christian DJ in Secular Radio
              28 Jul 1992 07:40:39 GMT from <timk@WORLD.STD.COM>

Tim:

My prayers are with you and with Dee.  I now know what it is like to
lose a very good friend to a distant job.  I am happy that she was able
to stand by her conviction, and I am certain that God is leading her
into another place where he would rather she be.

Best of luck to all.
                           Love INC,
                                    ---Kerry
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X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 00:42:48 -0700
From:         DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU
Subject:      Re: The vote and being offended by posts or flames.
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

>I agree with what Dan Graham said about being offended by electronic
>mail.  Our sufficiency is in Christ, not in what other people may
>or may not think of us.  (Besides, I almost forgot--doesn't matter
>to me.  The person that takes offense is dead.  The person that
>forgives rose with Christ.)
>                           Love INC,
>                                    --Kerry

	You forget that not everyone is as strong in the Lord as you.  Here
on this earth, we are in the process of being perfected.  We are not all there
yet, and some of us have problems where others don't.  (ie being easily
offended by what others say, or having a fragile image of self, instead of
God's image of our self.)  Also,  we are to speak the truth in LOVE, and that
would generally mean that being abrasive is out.  And there are a number of
abrasive truth speakers here on Christia.

Mark
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X-VMS-Cc: AUTENRKL
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:20:00 CST
From:         "dr. Daniel Edward Taylor" <AUTENRKL@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Warnke
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.bitnet@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu

>In Jesus,
>	David Richmond

>BTW: I'm not necessarily saying that Cornerstone should _not_ investigate,
>     but I'd like to know their motives.  They do _sell_ their magazine,
>     don't they?

    Yes, they do sell their zine.  But they will send it to you for
    free if you do not think you can afford it.

    I think the reason they do this type of reporting is to inform the
    readers.  All of the reporting I have read in their zine has been
    backed up with dates, personal accounts, and interviews.  You will
    also find that they are willing to look at things from many
    diffent viewpoints and let the people being investigated to
    present their views (ie. tony compollo (sp?) on homosexuality)

    how i see it,

dr. Daniel Edward Taylor
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
kevin autenrieth            U N D E R   T H E   G A Z E   O F   G O D
autenrkl@sluvca.slu.edu
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
so long and thanks for all the fish.  -- douglas adams
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X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:33:00 -0400
From:         Lora Harris <LHARRIS@UPEI.CA>
Subject:      Excerpt from Chinese news

             * * *  C h i n a   N e w s   D i g e s t  * * *
                             (News Global)
                         Sunday, July 26, 1992

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. No Other Gods Before Mao.............................................26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:    Charles P. Mok
Source:  Christianity Today, 7/20/92

Just before Christmas 1990, Chinese authorities arrested over  60  Cathol-
ics,  including priests and bishops, in Heibei province.  The arrests came
as part of a widespread crackdown against Catholics who  remain  loyal  to
the Vatican and refuse to join the government-sponsored Catholic Patriotic
Association.

One of those arrested, 51-year-old Zhang Weiming, worked as  a  translator
in a factory in Baoding city and was an active member of the Roman Cathol-
ic community there.  On December 14, he and his wife, Hou  Chongyan,  were
walking along a street in Baoding when plainclothes city officials bundled
them into a car - without explanation or display of detention  or  arrests
warrants.  Two days later plainclothes police officers reportedly searched
their flat without a warrant and confiscated books and personal documents.
After  the  two  were  held in "boarding houses" for two months, Weiming's
wife was released without explanation  and  Zhang  was  transferred  to  a
detention center.  He is still being held there without charge.

Zhang is reported to have had a heart attack in  detention,  where  he  is
also  suffering from arthritis and enteritis.  He has been held incommuni-
cado for over a year, and his family has  been  denied  accesses  the  him
since  his  arrest.  They may not send him medicine or food, nor have they
have been informed of the reasons for, or the place of, his detention.

Amnesty International calls his arrest arbitrary and illegal, and is  cal-
ling  on  the  Chinese authorities to release him immediately and uncondi-
tionally.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|             Executive Editor:      Junjie Hu       (U.S.A.)            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| China News Digest (CND) offers the following services:                 |
| For subscription information, mail to:   cnd-info@djohn-sun.kent.edu   |
| News contributions should be sent to:  cnd-editor@djohn-sun.kent.edu   |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:44:00 EDT
From:         BONROE@ALBNYVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Changing Opinions

Darren has placed a great deal of his past opinions on the "errors" of
others that he followed.  It is a danger we all must fight.  We tend to
be followers of men/women and forget that we must weigh what we believe
with Scripture and communing with the Lord in prayer over what we should
choose to believe. I sense that you, Darren, are a sensitive, caring
person and would like to know what is right to believe. Please remember
that Jeremiah and John the Baptist had been chosen for special service
to our Lord and Savior before their birth. I feel at peace with God to
know that I am "fearfully and wonderfully made" and that any influence I
can be to a mother to allow her child to live is exactly what Jesus would
do. The Lord Bless-Bon
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: Thanks God, I'm alive!
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 06:47:35 GMT

Wow, Chris!  That kinda sounds like the time that I was driving to work
in my 1-month-old Geo Prizm.  (Well, it was actually like a year old, but
I had only had it a month.)

I was making a lane change on the highway, and somebody with a delayed-
action blinker cut me off.  I swerved to avoid being hit and must've slipped
on some black ice.  (There were reports of black ice on the roads that
morning.)  In any case, me in a car I'm not really used to driving slipping
on ice... I lost control and ran into this huge ice bank.  I wasn't wearing
a seatbelt (but I do now).  I thought I was going home...

I closed my eyes for an instant, and the next thing I knew I was in the
middle of the highway.  My music had stopped playing; the driver's side
door had been opened and the window rolled down; and there were people all
around.  I had a big bruise on my forehead, but I was unharmed!  One of
the people, who said he had seen the whole thing, told me that I almost
went over the median into oncoming traffic!  (But I didn't!)

Incidentally, the car was totalled.  Boy, what a mess!!!  (Awwwww... I liked
that car. :-)

-Tim
-- 
Tim King                  |-_      |
Dedham, MA                |  -|    |    Make mine music!
timk@world.std.com       <>   |   <>
(617) 890-2929 x137          <>
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Monday, 27 Jul 1992 16:50:32 EDT
From: <LSMITH@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Amy Grant and her "Crossover" Music

Sure, writing a song about your baby is edifying in the terms of a person excer
sising the gift of Love that God has given us, but as I said - I have a problem
 with songs that straddle the fence.  It should not be that a person has to rea
d an article in a magazine to find out EXACTLY what a person is singing about.
 If that's what she wants to do, then fine - but don't call it "Gospel" music.
 Gospel music should proclaim the Good News of the Lord - not hide behind the c
loak of ambiguity in order to make a profit.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:54:57 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@WAYNEST1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Spiritual leadership in the home
              22 Jul 1992 16:32:35 GMT from <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

Darren,

I said that wrong.  What I meant to say was that I made the final decision
about what we were going to do ineach of the three situations, and I took
responsibility for the outcome.  As a matter of fact, in the case of the
spiritual issue (it had to do with whether or not we were going to continue
attending a particular church of which we had been members for the past
10 years), my decision was to do things _her_ way.  Occasionally things
happen that are where either direction is equally harmful to all parties
concerned, and this was one of those situations.  I made the decision the
way I did for the sake of our marriage and my wife's spiritual health, but
it was exceptionally painful for me and our children.

Regarding the spiritual support that I receive from my wife, she does give
me more or less the same kind of support that I give her.  That's why I
pointed out that my leadership tends to manifest itself more in practical
matters, and then only if there is a need for a tiebreaker.  I tend to
also to take the lead in establishing our family spirituality, that is,
how we pray and read scripture together, what things we pray for, etc.
However, I will generally make almost any change that my wife asks of me,
just as she will make almost any change that I ask of her.  Our main
concern is to provide an environment in which our children can experience
the love and care of God through our love and care.

Regarding "hot" arguments, I grew up in a Jewish household, where loud,
even yelling arguments were fairly common, and my wife, though not from
a Jewish or Mediterranean/Middle Eastern ethnic group, has gotten used
that sort of relating.  My parents were always yelling at each other, us,
neighbors, etc., and making up afterwards.  It's got nothing to do with
logic, it has to do with letting off emotional steam.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Prolife and Prochoice Denominational/ National leadership
Date: 23 Jul 92 05:50:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Darren writes...

>There are several other things to do:
> 
>1) Accept that there are no pro-life candidates, and select a candidate on
>   more than one issue.  (I recommend this latter idea in any case.)

..and in an earlier post he wrote:

>Where the rubber meets the road -- ie, where ideas turn into action -- the
>Episcopal church is not significantly different than any other pro-choice
>organisation.  If you support the Episcopal church financially, then you
>support a group which (in the minds of some pro-life people) "advocates the
>slaughter of the innocent for the convenience of the selfish".

[...] 

>What I am trying to understand is how a strongly pro-life pro-legislation
>person sees his financial support of a pro-choice group.  Some people boycott
>companies that are pro-choice or that advertise on programs with a pro-choice
>agenda.  Others see that as too indirect to be worth bothering about.  To
>them, it is some distance from putting gas in your car to approving abortion.
> 
>But the financial support of a church is a lot closer, I would think.  Some
>people don't see it that way, apparently.  I do hope some of them will tell me
>HOW they see it.  Any takers?

	These two views don't appear to be congruous.

	In one post, the recommendation is to see abortion as just one 
issue, then average in this one issue along with other issues, and to 
vote for the person with the best average. This could, in practice,
be a recommendation to vote for a pro-choice candidate; whether the 
voter herself is pro-life or pro-choice.

	In the earlier post, there there is the view that the 
Episcopal church is a pro-choice organization, and that supporting it
is questionable for pro-life people.

	In one post, Darren cannot fathom how a pro-life person 
could be a member of a pro-choice organization; in a later post he 
recommends a course of action that may put such a person in just 
that position.

	I'm finding it hard to reconcile these two positions.



 en agape,
 Bob 
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:04:13 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Biblical grounds for Divorce

Chris, I always interpeted the Bible as saying it is ok to divorce a
spouse if the other one commits fornication.  My sister is in kinda
sorta the type of situation that you were in, but not nearly as bad yet.
I just asked her if she was thinking about getting a divorce and she hit
the roof(became very upset).  Anyway back to you, I think you are a very
smart and courageous person to go ahead and get rid of that burden.
Until someone has been in the situation, I don't see how they can tell
anybody else how to live. :) Yvette

************************************************************************
*  Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."*
*  Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3    *
*  Computer Programmer/Analyst                                         *
************************************************************************
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X-Original-To:  Christia@asuacad.bitnet, MB09
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 08:57:00 CDT
From:         MB09@SWTEXAS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: SO-CALLED PRO_CHOICERS

From:         scsd1055@ALTAIR.SELU.EDU

>        Congratulations on your baby.  But, the concept of requiring woman
>to view an ultra-sound before contemplating abortion is absurd.  If you are
>at all familiar with the process it takes months before the fetus' sex
>is distinguishable, and for a couple of months before the fetus' human
>features become visible (I know...a family memember is a radiologist). This
>would place the fetus in its second or third period....purely a no-no, and
>I doubt that a woman, who has decided to terminate, will be swayed by the
>badly blurred image of a four week old fetus on a screen.

I personally think that requiring women to see their baby on ultrasound before
contemplating abortion is a great idea.  Most women don't know that only
21 days after conception their baby's heart is beating, by day 40 brain waves
can be detected, and by eight weeks every system is present that is found
in a fully developed adult.  Most abortionists won't do an abortion before
6-8 weeks because of the "greeness" or hardness of the cervix could cause
cervical problems when dilating it.  The baby looks like a baby by 7-8 weeks.
Most abortions are done at about 10 weeks.

I am now 6 1/2 months pregnant.  At seven weeks I had an ultrasound.  Although
I couldn't discern the shape of my baby or the sex (which isn't apparent
until the 13th week), I could cleary see his (I found out from a later
sonogram that he is a boy!) heart beating.  I think that if more women knew
the FACTS about the development of their unborn children, they would think
twice before aborting them.

If you have any questions about the developement of the unborn child or
abortion procedures and risks, etc., feel free to send mail privately.  I
am not an expert, but maybe I can help.

Also, congratulations, Kevin!!!

May Christ's Peace and Love be with you,

Michelle
      _|_
       |
"With God all things are  possible."  Matthew 19:26

*******************************************************
* Michelle R. Bruce                                   *
* Programmer I                                        *
* Southwest Texas State University, San Marcos, Texas *
* about 30 miles South of Austin, Texas               *
* and 40 miles North of San Antonio, Texas            *
*******************************************************
From: scsd1055@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Changing opinions (Edify)
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:25:07 -0600
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

Fritz writes ->

>If somebody feels the need to vent their anger at others on this list, I
>suggest doing it through private e-mail and not to the whole list. 
[...]
>If you have a problem with somebody's arguments, simply refute them.
>Adding insult only detract from your cause.


	Admittedly, my posting was in haste.  I apologize for the crudity of 
my posting, but since I had to study for a final exam, which was scheduled 
for 7:30am the next morning, I didn't have time to tone down and cool off 
before posting.  
	The subject is one that affects me deeply.  I, like many of you, have
strong convictions about the issue.  I guess my willingness to stand up and 
speak readily about my convictions has gotten the best of me.  I respect your 
opinions, please respect mine!  I will not straddle the fence like others on 
this list.   Please do not use this listing to alienate those with contrary 
opinions.  
	As far as posting the letter to the list and not to the individuals 
in question, I have no regrets.  There were countless posting made by people 
whom are against the issue.  There were times when the comments made were 
extremely offensive (especially the comments by K.S. & M.H.).  Yet, I have 
seen no postings from yourself (Fritz) or anyone else, asking them to tone 
down, therefore I conclude that you are stimulated to respond only when an 
opinion arises that is contrary to your own.  Please see this from where 
I stand; a minority here on CHRISTIAn.  I only wish that those in question
would realize that there are others with contrary opinions that do not
deserve to be pegged as murderers and slaughterers. 
	I really enjoy some of the debates here on CHRISTIAn, but when an
issue arises, and one side becomes a little more cruel and crass,  than 
compassionate, intelligent, and understanding, there comes a time for the 
old "if you can't beat em' join em'" approach.  So did I, and will have 
no more to say on the subject.  


Have a good one,
Bill Plunkett
SCSD1055@ALTAIR.SELU.EDU
Remember the golden rule...
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:39:20 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Multiple Personalities

Urban Research Institute
Phone: 502-588-6626

God has created a complex, intricate gift for us - the human brain.  We still
do not fully understand all of its complexities or all of its capabilities, and
so by extension we cannot fully understand all of the problems that may be
associated with it.

I believe the brain is capable of developing complex methods of dealing with
stress, and multiple personalities may be one of the brain's techniques.  So
yes, I do believe that it is possible to experience multiple personalities
without being demon possessed.  That is not to say that I do not believe
demon possession does not exist, only that we should not necessarily blame
every ailment we do not understand on demon possession.

Brenda Curry-White
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 10:33:31 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: What's Important And What Do You Do?
              23 Jul 1992 15:02:39 GMT from <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

        Darren says:

I do not think there are any truly
concerned pro-life candidates running for President this year, so for one who
considers this an important issue there isn't much of an option.

         Actually, the Reverend Pat Mahoney is a candidate for President.
         If he's not on the ballot in your state, you can always write
         him in.
                  FYI,
                      --Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: Spiritual leadership in the home
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 01:36:15 GMT

I'm not married, so I can't comment from first-hand experience here.  I can
only offer the ideas and experiences of others.  Therefore, I'm not going
to comment...

However, I asked my fiancee if she thought I was becoming a good leader to
her.  And she said something to the effect of "Yes, because you're patient
with me."

I try to lead her by encouraging her in what she does.  This may not
seem like leadership to some, but for the moment it will have to do.
Perhaps this is the engaged couples version of leadership?

-Tim
-- 
Tim King                  |-_      |
Dedham, MA                |  -|    |    Make mine music!
timk@world.std.com       <>   |   <>
(617) 890-2929 x137          <>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia