From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:11:30 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.022827.27594@wixer.cactus.org> lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax) writes:
>lazarus@wixer.cactus.org responds to 
>  > hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz), Jul 28 1992   
>  >    10:32 CDT responding to
>       >> lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (sorry, don't remember the date)
>
>>....Life, even human life, while ranking highly is not the highest
>>value.  The Torah mandates that one must give up ones life for
>>three things (Idol Worshp, Ervah - usually translated as sexual
>>immorality, and Murder).  When the Torah mandates the death
>>penalty, it does not say unless the criminal can be rehabilitated. 
>>The Torah declares that the murderer must be taken from the altar
>>of Hashem if necessary to carry out the sentence.
>
>Nice twist.  I was taught that you could break Shabbat, even a
>fast, if your life was at risk.  And what about the story of a

THe statement was that in order to save a life one *must* violate
the Sabbath (#include story of Hillel and the sages heating water
and reference to driving to the hospital but not back home).

The great sages insisted on doing it themselves rather than through
a nonJew or someone else in order to save a life.

>father and son in the desert?  If the son has the water, he is
>directed to use it all in order that he might live, rather than
>risk both their lives.  I have always been more interested in the
>spirit of Judaism, rather than the strict letter of the law.  Too
>often, the Torah contradicts itself or at least brings items into
>question.  And while the Torah is an important _part_ of Judaism,
>Jews do not rely entirely on it for our law.

The Torah is both the Written and the Oral Law.  The discussions
and developments through the Mishnah, Gemora, up to the modern
Responsa are specific cases or rules derived from the Halacha.
When understood and studied in depth, the Torah does not contradict
itself.  The difference in particular cases are crucial to the
differing outcomes.

>
>
>>>writer of the previous post considers unfair murder to be fair. 
>>>The death penalty is *not* a punishment, in any case.
>
>>According to the Torah, the death penalty is a mandated punishment
>>under the appropriate circumstances.
>
>Nice bit of cyclic logic.  "The Torah says so, therefore it is." 
>A "punishment" is intended to 'correct' - the death penalty does no

The Torah does not say that the punishment "corrects" the sin.  For
example, the monetary punishment for maiming is considered "Ayin
tachas ayin" [An eye for (instead of) an eye] does not "correct the
victims loss of vision.  (The concep of ey for an eye in the TOrah
has been dealt with by many people and is too long to go into here,
see Rabbi J. H. Hertz endonotes in hs Pentateuch, Rabbi
S. R. Hirsch, and Nechama Liebowitz's Studies in the Parsha for
discussions on this subject).

>such thing.  Furthermore, since when is a punishment the same type
>of action taken by a criminal?

No one said that it is or have to be.  However by this reasoning,
the punishment of a thief(kafel - double) would not be proper.  Or
you can argue that you should never lock someone up because it is
the same as "kidnapping".

>
>
>>>I would be *very* interested in learning why a Jew would consider
>>>murder an acceptable solution to ANY problem.  Many Jews are
>>>vegeterians because they
>
>>If someone is in the category of rodef (chasing someone to kill
>>them), the Torah *requires* you to kill him.  The Torah
>>specifically says that if you catch a sneak thief in the house at
>>night (note this is a simplification of the full halachos) you are
>>allowed to kill him because he would probably kill you in order to
>>get away undetected.
>
>The death penalty has _NOTHING_ to do with self-defense.  While
>killing a thief might be a bit overzealous, I can understand the
>fear that most people would have with a stranger invading their
>home.  A person locked up in prison is not likely to be a "sneak
>thief" in your home.
>

That wasn't the point.  You said that "murder" was not an
acceptable solution to *any* problem.  I just gave you two.  The
death penalty is another issue.

>
>>A Jewish vegetarian should not be one because he is
>>"uncomfortable".  The reasons are many, including the treatment of
>>the animals before they are slaughtered, but they do not involve
>>raising an animal above the status of a human being.  THeir have
>>been threads before this on the subject and some of the posters
>>have said it much better than I can.  However, I will point out
>>that a Jewish vegetarian would still eat the meat of the required
>>sacrifices.
>
>I was not raising animals above the status of human beings; rather
>I was suggesting that supporters of killing human beings for
>vengeance reduce human beings to animals.  Also, while I do not

The execution of a murderer is not for "vengeance" nor is it
reducing the human being to the status of an animal.  The rules of
execution include treated the murderer with all the respect a human
being deserves even though he is still executed.  The rules of
condemnation are precise and spell out how the Sanhedrin is to act.
They definitely preclude the idea of vengeance or lowering the
criminal (beyond what he has done to himself).

>know the specifics of sacrifices (although I thought there had not
>been any in two thousand years), I would _NOT_ eat the meat in that

Every Jew must partake of the Paschal sacrifice.  Se the laws
regarding that.

>situation.  Assuming, of course, that it would not be required to
>kill a human for not killing an animal.
>

I have to leave now so I can't finish the rest of this, but what I
have written should give you the idea.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
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