From: chuck@fourier.ssd.kodak.com (Charles S. Collins 726-9461)
Subject: Re: Some sad news from Colorado
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 20:09:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.170031.20586@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.162303.15249@pixel.kodak.com> chuck@fourier.ssd.kodak.com (Charles S. Collins 726-9461) writes:
>>>Until I see otherwise, I'll continue to regard "organized religion" in 
>>>the same way as "organized crime."
>>Of course, you are free to believe what you like.  But I must protest
>>what I see has terribly shortsighted.
>
>I wouldn't be so sure who's being short-sighted.  You're a
>Presbyterian; what are you to make of the PCUSA's decision regarding
>that lesbian pastor?  How many times must you get stepped on before
>waking up and saying you won't be associated with any such organized
>cause which not only works against you within the very institution to
>which you claim "fellowship", but against you in society at large?
>
Steve-- I happen to be a member of Downtown United Presbyterian in
Rochester, the church which was recently told by the denomination that
it could not call an openly lesbian pastor, Janie Spahr of San Francisco.

And before you go lumping this particular congregation into the class of
organizations which "work against us", I suggest you examine the following:

--Nearly one third of the membership is openly gay/lesbian/bisexual. We
are active in all aspects of church life.  g/l/b persons continue to visit
the church and join as members, and even g/l/b people in the non-church
community speak highly of our leadership on gay issues.

--Other churches within the Presbyterian denomination look to us as
a prophetic beacon to reverse the hateful doctrines concerning our people.

--Because of the strong stance of our congregation and other Christian and
Jewish congregations in Rochester, the anti-gay forces are extremely weak
here.  Gay bashing is nearly unheard of and area businesses are proactive on
gay rights (compared with many businesses elsewhere).  I can say with 
confidence that if the pro-gay religious communities of Rochester disappeared,
the Lou Mabonites would become vocal again.

--I have many nongay friends in the congregation who work as hard as most
gay Rochesterians I know on justice issues.  You'll see our church banner
at the March in Washington next April, and some of these folks will be there
with us.  You might make a point to meet us before you judge us further.

>
>>By classifying all of organized religion in the same league as organized crime,
>>you ignore the following groups within organized religions which are working
>>extremely hard for gay/lesbian/bisexual causes:
>>More Light Churches (Presbyterian)
>>Reconciling Congregations (Methodist)
>>Affirmation (Mormon)
>>Dignity (Roman Catholic)
>>Integrity (Episcopal)
>
>Masochists, all of them.  Of course, some of my best friends are masochists.
>

Unfortunately, there's an element of masochism in almost everything we
g/l/b people experience in this society.  I prefer mine with the grace
and FELLOWSHIP I experience at Downtown Presbyterian.

Footnote:  We're all hurting badly from the Janie Spahr decision.  Please
don't add your flames to what we're already enduring.  We'll be back stronger
than ever.  And we're likely to have a great number of congregations with us.

-- 
Chuck Collins				Product Software Engineering
chuck@pixel.kodak.com			Eastman Kodak Company
(716)726-9461				901 Elmgrove Road
					Rochester, NY  14653-5811