From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Organization: OSF Research Institute
	<1992Aug28.223506.261@cs.wisc.edu> <1992Aug30.110135.16578@enea.se>
	<1992Sep2.191432.4412@cs.wisc.edu>
	<MACRAKIS.92Sep3115312@next4.osf.org> 	<1992Sep3.183104.10550@cs.wisc.
	<1992Sep9.190837.24767@cs.wisc.edu>
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:21:45

I had said:

   >As you know, Yanni, Cretan and Ionian dialects are very close to
   >standard Greek.  Vlach is not.

In article <1992Sep9.190837.24767@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) replies:

   No, I don't buy this. There are probably much more words of vlach
   origin in modern Greek than words of cretan origin.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  If you're saying that there's more
borrowing from Vlach into standard Modern Greek than from Cretan
dialect, maybe you're right.  However, I don't know what this
demonstrates, since after all Cretan dialect is a Greek dialect, and
the great bulk of the vocabulary and almost all the grammar is
strictly Greek, whereas Vlach, despite much common vocabulary with
Greek, is a Romance language/dialect.

   The problem is that for linguists if two languages have grammars of
   different origin are considered different right from the start.

Yes, certainly grammar is important, as is basic vocabulary.  After
all, Albanian has very large numbers of Slavic and Greek borrowings,
but is still clearly not a Slavic or Greek language.

   But I don't think it would be fair to try to save previous language
   forms based on how close to an official language of a state they
   are.

That was not what I was saying.  I think it is perfectly valuable to
preserve local dialects of the official language.  I also think it is
valuable to teach the official language.  What I oppose is attempts to
eradicate or deny the existence of local dialects, whether related to
the official language or not.

   >I guess France is no longer a modern state...

   You didn't catch the meaning of word "modern". I had in mind the
   nation states that started beeing created during the last three
   centuries. This trend you describe is quite a recent one, I guess 
   part of what is known multiculturalism.

I think the term `multiculturalism' is used largely in the US, and is
a more recent coinage than the phenomenon of a Europe of regions.  If
you want to look at the phenomenon of regionalism in the context of
the nation-state, I'd say that it is in fact a reaction to the
extremes of the nation-state ideal, which require an identity of
nation and state.  Regionalism allows preserving the richness of
multiple `nations' or `regions' while preserving the economies of
scale of a unitary state.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

   If you want my opinion, it's a dead end. We are living in a global
   world and some people just don't want to realize it.

What are you suggesting?  That everyone learn English and that we
forget French, Italian, Greek, etc.?

   For example, what language would a corsican use in Brittagne?

Under the French model, French of course.  It is clear that Corsican
and Breton are regional languages.  French is the national language.

   We must understand that the closed societies of the middle ages
   that led to the creation of many different language forms don't
   exist.  There is discussion about the future extiction of all the
   european languages and we are worrying about almost extinct
   dialects?  Survirval of any language form is up to the people and
   not the states. if you feel a language should be saved, teach it to
   your children, write literature or papers using it.

I certainly agree that survival of languages is first of all up to
individuals.  Our household is in fact trilingual: we use English (we
live in the US), French (my wife is French-speaking Belgian), and
Greek (I am of Greek origin).

   And to continue with the corsican, what will happen when 
   he marries a girl from Britagne? How many languages would 
   their children have to speak?

This is an individual choice, of course.  I'd certainly expect them to
learn French in school, if they don't speak it at home.  They may
learn English or German as well, and perhaps they will speak Corsican
and Breton at home and with the grandparents.  If they live in
Corsica, probably Corsican will have more priority.  Or perhaps they
will decide to drop one or more.

   For example, if I take myself as a case and apply this mother
   tongue theory, I should have to learn quite a few languages,

I have never suggested that anyone be obligated to learn multiple
regional languages, although I see no harm in teaching the local
regional language to both locals and immigrants.

   pontian from my father's father, turkish from father's mother and
   cretan from my mother's parents.  Now, I know of a great
   grandmother that came from Carpathos and who knows what language
   they used to speak there. Not to count that my grandfather's
   ancestors is said that they came to Ierapetra from Chania so I
   would have to learn two different variations of cretan.

That sounds like a typically rich background.  There is in fact a
Pontian social club here in Boston where Laz, Greek, and English are
all spoken.  Many of the members also speak Turkish.  This doesn't
seem to pose a problem.  There are several grocery stores in the
Armenian neighborhood here (Watertown) where you hear many languages,
and where the shopkeepers often speak all three of Armenian, Turkish,
and English, sometimes with a smattering of Greek or Arabic, depending
on their origins.

   So, at least three mother tongues plus modern greek plus
   english to communicate with foreigers. Quite a bunch, don't
   you think? And what should I do with my kids if it happens
   to marry a girl with equally mixed ancestry?

I would suggest that you decide which languages to use.  I see no
problem here.

   ...Note that the turkish that my grandmother spoke were not even
   the modern Turkish. I made an experiment with a turkish girl
   roughly from the same region(Trapizon) that my grandmother was
   living by giving her to read songs written in this kind if turkish
   and there were words unknown to her. Also, this language was
   written with the greek alphabet. Since there is not a written
   grammar or dictionary for the language, I would have to start
   visiting old people in the villages to learn this language or try
   to come up with the grammar from old Bibles written in turkish!!!

This sounds like a fascinating project, but if it doesn't interest
you, no one is obligating you to undertake it.

   And as a last example, you should take into account the
   language that we are using in this article exchange and
   in general in this newsgroup. Much less than half are written
   in Greek.

Certainly.  The goal of the group is communication not only among
Greeks, but about Greece, among both Greeks and others.  English is a
reasonable choice, especially since usenet is historically based in
the US (and most subscribers still seem to be here).

About the origin of the Vlachs, I made the somewhat exasperated
remark:

   >My reference was works on Romance philology.  Your reference is a
   >newspaper article.  I tend to believe the former rather than the
   >latter.

And Schoinas replied:

   Actually, the series of articles was quite well documented.

Fine, perhaps they were good articles.  But a priori, you'd agree,
wouldn't you, that newspaper articles are in general a poor source of
information?  I'd much rather rely on refereed journals.

As for the content of the issue, I agree that much is unknown about
the origin of the Rumanians and the Vlachs.

   ...BTW, my impression is that French, Italian and Spanish are quite
   close. I guess everything is a matter of the similarity measure.

They certainly have a lot in common, and once you know one, learning
the others is a lot easier.  For that matter, Turin (IT) dialect is
much closer to Chambery (FR) dialect (which is pretty much extinct)
than it is to Naples (IT) dialect....

	-s

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