From: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de (Till Poser)
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics FAQ
Reply-To: Poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:57:16 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.124148.27030@hemlock.cray.com>, 
robd@cray.com (Robert Derrick) writes:

|>But here is an interesting tidbit.  A crazy person perhaps,
|>quoted by a medical observer?  Ted Holden Clone?  A rabid
|>New Age Creationist?  Hmmn?
|>
|> "He tells us that the pudding that ate Chicago may some day exist;
|>that duplicates of each one of us may one day wander the universe;
|>that _anything_ can, and probably will, happen.  He tells us that
|>the universe isn't lawful, never will be lawful, never can be
|>lawful; that we _cannot ever_ know enough to predict the totality
|>of events in this universe; that at best we study local phenomena
|>that may be predictable for an unspecifiable time.
|> And he laughs.
|> He tells us that Cthulthu may exist after all."
|>...
|> "He concluded by reminding us that Albert Einstein once said 'God
|>does not play dice with the universe.'
|> 'On the contrary', he said, 'it appears that not only does God
|>play dice, but also that he sometimes throws the dice where they
|>cannot be seen!'"

Pournelle's style tends to be a bit on the dramatic side. But then he was
speaking about "The Breakdown of Physics in the Vicinity of Space-Time
Sigularities", which was the title fo Hawking's talk.

|>What does this have to do with T.O.  It means that if it were
|>true, then any form of Creation that you would want to envision
|>is possible. 

This is not true. Hawking's point was that, while the laws of physics
are fixed (well, let's not quibble too much here) in the normal 
space time, the conditions in the direct vicinty of, or for that matter 
in, a singularity, vulgo Black Hole, are not only unknown, but unknowable.
Hawking's point is that our physical models break down there.

There is a rather wild speculation that black holes are something like
micro universes, in which the laws of physics are possibly different from
those in the normal continuum. Possibly, but also unknowable for us,
since no information escapes to normal space. Hawking did however 
speculate about a fuzzy boundary, fuzzy due to the quantum-machanical 
properties of a singularity, which might, too, have unknowable, or rather
unforseeable, physical laws.

The measurable physical quantities of a singularity are mass, charge and
angular momentum, regardless of what has gone into it. It is the ultimate
information entropy. Those quantities, however, will make perfect sense
in any conventional theory.

Pournelle's colourful hyperbole doesn't change that. You should keep in
mind that a science fiction auther a scientist does not make, though the
section of both sets is definitely not empty. Pournelle is no scientist.

|>             Probable.  Will eventually happen.  You ultimately
|>must believe in everything. In the long run, of course. 

It says no such thing. Why should we bother with something unmeasurable 
and undetectable?

|>                                                        In the
|>short run, Evolution is a fine belief.  Theistic Anti-Evolution(SC)
|>has as it worst charateristic, that it is a near total void.
|>It is without content, without information.  Theistic Creation at least
|>adheres to a body of belief without attempting to buttress itself
|>by belittling its straw man.  Theistic Anti-Evolution(SC) supporters
|>may ultimately be more apostate than atheists, or at best, on par.

Let me summarise my reaction to this paragraph: Huh?

|>rob derrick

|>Oh, yeah the quote.  The narrator is Jerry Pournelle, and the person
|>he is quoting is the most brilliant astrophysicist on the planet,

But that is the point, he is _not_ quoting. Look it up in the book.

|>if not in the universe -- Stephen Hawking. -- from an essay called
|>"In The Beginning", from a book called Black Holes, edited by Jerry.

It's a decent book. It's also from '75 and the talk if from '73, if 
memory serves.

       Till Poser         Internet: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
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