From: jeff@maggot.gg.caltech.edu (Jeff Goldsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: HOF Voting and Lobbying
Date: 22 Nov 1992 22:27:42 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: all
NNTP-Posting-Host: maggot.gg.caltech.edu

In <1992Nov22.210201.5137@oz.plymouth.edu> s_bean@oz.plymouth.edu (Shaun P. Bean) writes:

>Hello,

>This is the ballot I sent in for RSB HOF.  What do you think?

So-so choices.  They show a very strong bias towards recent
(60's and on) players, which I don't see as being an artifact
of the previous choices.

None of these players are not great players, but you missed
a couple of the major holes in the Hall so far.
    1) Lefty Grove is not in it.  He's probably the
    best pitcher ever, and without a doubt the best left
    hander.  His stats are Roger Clemens Sr. and he did that
    in years where the league averaged almost .300 with massive
    power, in a ballpark that inflated his ERA substantially
    (if that's possible.)  Heck, Grove is the best argument for
    claiming that park effects are multiplicative and linear that
    I can tell--one point something times very little is a little more
    than very little whereas one point something times a lot is 
    a whole bunch.

    2) No second basemen.  Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins, and 
    Rogers Hornsby are the greatest 2nd basemen ever.  The
    exact order of the top 3 is open to some argument.  Any
    two you pick would seem fine by me.  I personally, don't
    like Hornsby, though you have to respect his bat.  The
    guy averaged .400 for a five-year stretch.  Wow.  If only
    his teams had won.

    3) No catcher, but you picked one.  See below.

> Johnny Bench
    He's one of the greatest catchers of all time, and
    so far, there is no catcher in the NHof.  I think 
    that there ought to be, so I'd vote for whom I think
    is the best of all time.  IMHO, that is Yogi Berra.
    Second is a toss-up between Bench, Campanella, and
    Cochrane.  I picked two to try to get a more even
    representation among positions.
> Roberto Clemente
    If you include the intangibles of "class," "charity,"
    "role model," etc, Clemente has to be in any list of
    the greatest.  What that is worth on the field is unclear;
    what it is worth to baseball, however, seems much more
    important.  I truly wish he were playing in the '80's rather
    than the '60's.  I suspect his influence on both the 
    administration and the players would have ameliorated
    the drug problem substantially.  Even if he were around
    and retired now, I think his impact would be enormous.
    There's no way that he's the best on-the-field player 
    not in the NHoF, though.  But, what are the guidelines
    for entry?
> Sandy Koufax
    Clear-cut.  At his best, arguably the best pitcher
    of all time.  Unfortunately, he was only at his best
    for a short time, so if you factor in longevity, he
    is clearly not the best.  Still, he did things that 
    no one else did, at least for awhile, and he was the
    best player on a great team that won.  He has to be
    in anyone's top 25, I think.
> Whitey Ford,
> Bob Gibson, and
> Jim Palmer
    There are definitely too few pitchers (1?) so far.
    These, with Seaver and Spahn, are probably the best
    pitchers of the recent era (excluding Koufax and Clemens for a
    few more years,) though others can be argued in there, too.
    There is 100 years of baseball (almost) before these
    guys' careers started, though.  A more even distribution
    of players over time seems more plausible as the greatest
    ever.  It needn't be so; most of the greatest center fielders
    ever were active at the same time.  I don't think that has
    happened with pitchers, though.  Matthewson, Alexander, 
    Young, Plank, Hubbel, and Feller, for example, all are arguably as great
    as Ford, Gibson, and Palmer, though, since they are a  fairly
    diverse group, who are the best depends on how and what you 
    measure and your own opinion.  The same argument for Clemente,
    by the way, applies to Matthewson, which puts him at the top
    in my book.  
> Joe Jackson
    A crook.  'Nuff said.
> Al Kaline
    Idiosyncratic at best.  A clear indicator that your
    choices are hugely time-biased.
> Brooks Robinson
    Wrong Robbie.  Frank is much better than Brooks.  
    Matthews is a better 3rd baseman, too, and he's not
    on the list.  Brooks was probably the greatest fielding
    3rd baseman ever, but it's a close thing.  That doesn't
    put him in the top 25 players ever, though.  
> Pete Rose 
    I think he was screwed by Vincent mercilessly and 
    foolishly.  But I don't think he's anywhere near the
    best player not in the NHof.  He had no value as a fielder,
    he had minimal power and mediocre plate discipline.  He
    lasted forever, was a great hustler and on-the-field leader,
    and hit for high average and a little power.  If I pick a
    man solely for his bat, however, I am biased towards guys
    with huge power and good on-base-average.  I think Ralph
    Kiner, Hank Greenberg, and Johnny Mize were greater players
    than Rose, but since I am comparing two different types of
    hitters, it is pretty hard to show conclusively that they
    are much better than Rose.  The all-time hits record seems
    to be of some importance, but not enough to place Rose in 
    the top 25 players of all time.

>These are the non-players I voted for

>Connie Mack
>Billy Martin
>Casey Stengel

All reasonable.  There were no managers so far.  A few other
managers, however, seem to be on a par with those three:

John McGraw
Joe McCarthy
Earl Weaver
    for example.

Any of these seem ok to me.  Five of the six were managers
for great teams over long periods of time.  You pays your money...

As I see it, however, non-on-the-field personnel might be
worth considering, too.  What about announcers (Harry Caray,
Mel Allen, Red Barber?) or those that developed the game?
Or sportswriters?  Or equipment manufacturers and developers?
Or labor leaders?  Or adminstrators?  (I'd feel more comfortable
picking one if there had ever been a good commissioner. :) )  Or
the guys that made baseball back in the 1800's?  Abner Doubleday?
Lots of choices.

>I strongly believe that Billy Martin should get votes.  He must be
>considered on of the greatest managers of all-time.  Come on and vote
>for him.

The idea of a Net Hall of Fame sounds great to me.  I'd like to 
lobby for rules that will prevent that which happened to the real
Hall, in particular, dilution of the honor.  
				--Jeff