HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: theodore@unity.ncsu.edu (Andrew M Smith)
Subject: Roman Use of Copper Ore???
Originator: theodore@post.cc.ncsu.edu
Organization: NCSU 
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 05:05:01 GMT

From: theodore@unity.ncsu.edu (Andrew M Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Roman Use of Copper Ore???
Summary: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: world
Organization: NCSU 
Keywords: 

-- 
________________________________________________________________________
A M S II			          Email: theodore@unity.ncsu.edu
From: stewartp@spider.co.uk (Stewart Potter)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: British history 400-1000 AD
Summary: Picts play large part in Scotland
Date: 7 Jan 93 12:59:54 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK


> In article <28193@dog.ee.lbl.gov> mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes:
> >I'm going to be taking a class in about a month on the archaeology
> >of the period 400-1100 AD in Britain & Ireland.  I'm interested in
> >doing some reading about this period beforehand, preferably not
> >narrowly archaeological in nature (save that for the class).
> >I'd prefer good references to books on its political & cultural / art
> >history, & anything else that mite help my understanding of the
> >period. 
> 
> Primary sources --
> 
> Bede's *History of the English Church and People*
> 
> The Gododdin, the Mabinogi, the Tain Bo Culaigne, the Llywarch Hen
> 
> Secondary sources --
> 
> T.G.E. Powell's *The Celts* 
> 
> Proinsias Mac Cana's *Celtic Mythology*
> 
> I.M. Stead's *Celtic Art*
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Suzanne Lucia                suzanne-lucia.demitrio@launchpad.unc.edu

Dear folks,

    I can vouch for all of Suzannes' listings with the exception of
the Llywarch Hen, which I don't know, but will immediately chase up.
From its' title, I expect it is Brittonic in origin, but does it
refer to good old Coel Hen?

    Scottish sources include the slightly outdated but nonetheless 
excellent 'The Problem of the Picts,' by Wainwright, Feachem et al.
The Picts play a major part in the early history of Scotland (~200
AD to 842 AD) and are a fascinating enigma in themselves. Any of
the books by Anna Ritchie are also all very worthwhile and cover
all aspects of late Scottish pre-history. 'The Picts' by Isobel
Henderson is also a very informative book. That's all I can think
of off the top of my head, but I'll have a look and see what else
I've got.


Stewart
From: mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Coel Hen, Llywarch Hen
Date: 7 Jan 93 14:19:19 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

In article <1993Jan7.125954.13731@spider.co.uk> Stewart Potter writes:
>    I can vouch for all of Suzannes' listings with the exception of
>the Llywarch Hen, which I don't know, but will immediately chase up.
>From its title, I expect it is Brittonic in origin, but does it
>refer to good old Coel Hen?
>
No, 'hen' just means 'old', as in 'Old King Coel'.  The Welsh National
Anthem is, I think, 'Hen wlad fy n'hadi', 'Old land of my fathers'.
So, anyway, Llywarch Hen is 'Old Llywarch'.

BTW and completely off-subject.  Can anyone tell me what the word for 
'splendid' is?  I seem to remember that Coel's title in the stories was
'Old Coel the Splendid' (Coel Hen Something).  It's just been bugging me.
Mail me to save bandwidth.  Advance thanks...
-- 
 ',' ' ',','  |                                                  |  ',' ' ',','
   ', ,','    |       Del Cotter       mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk      |    ', ,','  
     ','      |                                                  |      ','    
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: Early history of dragons
Followup-To: sci.archaeology
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
	<1993Jan4.181256.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu>
Distribution: world,local
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:39:05 GMT

>>>>> On 5 Jan 93 01:12:56 GMT, gann@violet.ccit.arizona.edu said:

Doug>  Per Manne's interesting history of the concept of dragons in culture
Doug>  deleted.
Doug>  Interesting point but I would like to propose an alternative theroy
Doug> to Manne's Chinese origin ideas.  I think the concept of dragons was
Doug> widespread in many cultures because many cultures had found some
Doug> unusual Bones.  Think about it, Your a stone mason or a farmer in wales
Doug> around 600 A.D. and you dig up the fossilized skull of a tryranisourus 
Doug> (sp?) Rex.  What would you think?  The general shape between mythical 
Doug> dragons and T.Rex is pretty darn close.  This may explain why concepts 
Doug> of dragons are not unknown in the prehistoric new-world (which lacks 
Doug> evidence for any Chinese contact.

There is some evidence which would suggest that large saurian creatures
existed contemporaneous with humans - primarily, cave art.  If so (*IF*!!),
it is possible that dragon legends are merely embellished factual stories.
Consider primitive man's first encounter with a Komodo dragon, for example.
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | 
Integrated Measurement Systems | 
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             | 
Beaverton, Or 97005            | 
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      |
From: hecate@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: re: evolution in Anthropology
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:28:43 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Do thing always evolve to higher forms? Did you go
to a bar this New Year's Eve? :-)

Seriously, the idea that forms are evolving to higher
forms smacks of the scalae naturae of folks like
Morgan and esp. Spencer. I'm writing an Honours paper
on hominid evolution, and it is to be seen in a lot
of the stuff written in that area- baboons -> chimps
-> humans, etc. 

So, what are the implications for modern culture? I bet
it's that we think (although it is probably Politically
Incorrect to say so out loud) that modern Western culture is
the 'highest form' of culture yet evolved. Plus ca change...

Julia Holland
Member in good standing, Theoretical Drifters Anonymous.
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: First city and longest continuously inhabited city?
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:32:24 GMT


I'd have replied via e-mail, but the poster's address is incomplete.

>>>>> On 4 Jan 93 23:58:40 GMT, oueichek@gram (Ibaa Oueichek) said:

Ibaa>  Sorry to barge in, but i have a simple question:

Sorry, but you don't - it's a highly controversial and flame-provoking
question (speaking from bitter experience).

Ibaa>    * How credible is the bible from a historical point of view?
Ibaa>      I'm speaking about the OT, which seems to contain several
Ibaa>      contradictions with other historical sources (take for example
Ibaa>      the story of the Pharaon which seems to be in complete
Ibaa>      contradiction with Egyptian historians ).

Josh McDowell's books, especially _Evidence That Demands A Verdict_,
include quotes from several famous archaeologists on the general topic.
This posting of mine may provoke some responses from the dissenting
point of view, and I'd welcome *their* references, as always.
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | 
Integrated Measurement Systems | 
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             | 
Beaverton, Or 97005            | 
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      | 
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: ed_eck@milkwy.enet.dec.com 
Subject: Re: Roman Nails
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:26:42 GMT


In article <C0FvyK.9y5@Novell.COM>, karl_best@novell.com (Karl Best) writes...
>In article <C0ED9o.14u@brunel.ac.uk> mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:
>>   it consisted of 763,840 small, 85,128 
>>   medium, 25,008 large and 1344 extra-
>>   large iron nails.  The small ones were
> 
>Somebody actually counted them?
> 
>=========================================================================
>Karl Best                              My test for a book is that one
>Novell Tech Pubs           ...  __o    should finish it each time with a
>Provo, Utah  801-429-3428 ..   -\<,    mind to read it again--some day.
>karl_best@novell.com      ...(_)/(_).       - T.E. Lawrence


Grad students.






E.
From: kopfj@bert.Tymnet.COM (John Kopf,D,6305)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: elks
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:01:03 GMT
Reply-To: kopfj@bert.Tymnet.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems


I believe that:

Our Elk ==> European  Red Deer

..I'm not sure that is true genetically, but they surely share a number of common
attributes (size, coloration, etc.).

John
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: mariou@astro.astro.ufl.edu (STG colleague)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Minoan Scripts
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:17:24 GMT


Can someone tell me what is the difference between
linear A and linear B?

Also is there convincing evidence that human sacrifice
was practiced by the Minoans?

Thanks.

M. Gottesman

Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: panda@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Elizabeth Holden)
Subject: Re: First city and longest continuously inhabited city?
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 07:24:47 EST

jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:

> Disclaimer: I am not an apologist for "Biblical veracity," and I
> probably agree with those who say that there should not be a 
> discipline known as "Biblical archaeology." 
> 
But it makes a spiffy title for a magazine.

And it makes a handy reference for a two-word phrase designating a 
certain area (the middle east) and a certain time (c. 2000 B.C. to c. 100 
A.D.).  There are, however, more specific catch-phrases ones can use....

Terminology is always a basic problem.  The problem about talking about,s 
ay, shell-middens to designate culture is that it can be even more 
misleading than using "hunter-gatherer" type phrases, and even less 
meaningful.  Unless you fall back on designating each site as its own 
culture - and that usually badly understood - you get just as much 
confusion as with other, imprecise words. 

The problem is whether you use theories to work with to try to learn 
more, or make assumptions which get in the way of reality.

I think much more must be learned about the past before this problem can 
be solved.

Namaste,
Elizabeth


Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: ggrieve@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (greig.grieve)
Subject: Re: Early history of dragons
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 16:01:53 GMT
Summary: Sarmatian standard

In article <pmanne-040193155009@ma-mac13.uio.no>, pmanne@math.uio.no (Per Manne) writes:
> I have lately become interested in the early history of dragons (for 
> convenience, let's say before 1200 AD), and since the parts which
> currently seems most interesting to me has to do with ancient trade
> routs and cultural influence, this seems to be the right newsgroup
> to post my questions.
> 

Chester (Cheshire, UK) was a Roman legionary city (Deva). The city wall was
repaired in late Roman times using gravestones, leading to their preservation.
One of these stones in the museum depicts a Sarmation cavalry man with a
dragon standard. The description says that this was a bronze dragon's head
trailing a long ribbon. Wind through holes in the bronze created a noise
when it was carried aloft in a cavalry charge.

The Romans used garrisons from all over the empire, so the Sarmatian(s) would
have been there in there in the first centuries AD.

The red dragon is the emblem for Wales, so I wonder if this is not inspired by
a Sarmatian original. [The Britons had some regard for the Roman empire at the
end of, and after, the Roman occupation.]

> Oslo,
> Per Manne


Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: himb@rz.tu-clausthal.de (Merten Becker)
Subject: CAREER IN AMERICAN INDIAN HISTORY
Reply-To: himb@rz.tu-clausthal.de
Organization: Rechenzentrum der TU Clausthal
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 14:49:16 GMT

hello,
I am 16 years old and my name is Nils Becker. I live in Essen, Germany.
I am visiting my brother in Clausthal where he goes to university and from
where I am writing this letter.
I am looking for an answer on what to study with my big interest on  
NORTH AMERICAN INDIANS. Over here you can study history and maybe specialise
on American history but you will learn little on the indians, but mostly on
modern politics. 
You might be wondering how it is possible for me writing in English!
I have already lived in Dallas, Texas [USA] for 2 years and in London, England
for 5 1/2 years.
At the age of 7 [while living in Dallas] my interest on the American Indians
started and has just gotten worse over the years.I have already learnt alot but I am
still eager to learn more! 
So I was quite content to have the possibility to take part at a student exchange
with Quebec, Canada, where I speant 3 months exploring the traces of what anciet
indians tribes have left us.
So if you should know anything on a university subject anywhere in the world
[well, my greatest possebilities should be in the USA/ Can.] specialising on
the indian culture/ history; [or even job chances as a specialist in that area,
and what kind of surroundings I would be working in] then please contact me as quick 
as possible.
I am greatful for any advice!!!!


                     yours, sincerly
                                           NILS BECKER
From: art@acc.com (Art Berggreen)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Early history of dragons
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:11:48 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: ACC, Advanced Computer Communications

In article <1993Jan6.115830.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> gann@violet.ccit.arizona.edu writes:
>In article <LEET.93Jan6083905@ibis.ims.com>, leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:
>>
>> 
>> There is some evidence which would suggest that large saurian creatures
>> existed contemporaneous with humans - primarily, cave art.  If so (*IF*!!),
>> it is possible that dragon legends are merely embellished factual stories.
>> Consider primitive man's first encounter with a Komodo dragon, for example.
>  I'd say YIKES! and run like hell :)
>> Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | 
>
>
>    Hmmmmm, interesting point for indonesians, but I dont remember any
>evidence for large saurian creatures existing elsewhere (in human history at
>least).  Be that as it may you do have a valid point.  Inflation of normal
>creatures to fantastic size would seem to be a fairly normal trend in
>legend-crafting. Next question...What sort of lizards live in europe :)
>
>Doug Gann
>Gann @CCIT.Arizona.edu
 
I have often heard it speculated that one of the sources of dragon mythology,
was an attempt to explain Dinosaur fossils which were found in Eastern Asia.
It has also been claimed that such finds in Europe helped create stories
about giants.

Art
From: tratclif@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Tracy Ratcliff)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Q re Robert Graves
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:16:41 GMT
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens

In article <93Jan04.202619.17421@acs.ucalgary.ca> edstrom@Elmer.hsc.ucalgary.ca (John Edstrom) writes:
>an interested but naive outsider's question about Robert Graves' book
>"The White Goddess":
>
>I'm generally interested in mythology and am reading RG's book.  Its
>interesting and ingenious but I'm curious about how its regarded by
>the pros.  Is Graves considered a crank or are his ideas taken
>somewhat seriously?
>
John Edstrom | edstrom @ elmer.hsc.ucalgary.ca

This was discussed to death on alt.mythology in October.  The concensus was
that Graves is a great poet but a lousy classical scholar.  Consider _White
Goddess_ as more or less similar to a historical novel.  His edition of the
Greek myths is very good if you ignore his 'explanations' of them.
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: First city and longest continuously inhabited city?
From: cctr114@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Rea)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:55:46 GMT
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Lee Thomas (leet@ims.com) wrote:

> >>>>> On 4 Jan 93 23:58:40 GMT, oueichek@gram (Ibaa Oueichek) said:

> Ibaa>  Sorry to barge in, but i have a simple question:

> Sorry, but you don't - it's a highly controversial and flame-provoking
> question (speaking from bitter experience).

> Ibaa>    * How credible is the bible from a historical point of view?
> Ibaa>      I'm speaking about the OT, which seems to contain several
> Ibaa>      contradictions with other historical sources (take for example
> Ibaa>      the story of the Pharaon which seems to be in complete
> Ibaa>      contradiction with Egyptian historians ).

> Josh McDowell's books, especially _Evidence That Demands A Verdict_,
> include quotes from several famous archaeologists on the general topic.
> This posting of mine may provoke some responses from the dissenting
> point of view, and I'd welcome *their* references, as always.

One problem with McDowell on Jericho is that he will tell you that a
set of walls fell over as per the Bible leaving the impression in
the readers mind that there was only one such occurance. If my memory
serves me correctly, I recall that so far
at least sixteen sets of such fallen walls have been uncovered at
the site of Jericho spanning a very wide range of dates. The area
is seismically active and toppling of walls by earthquakes is not
uncommon. Attempting to identify a particular set of fallen walls 
with the Biblical events is subject to many problems. Those who want
to will do so whether the evidence is clear or not.

As for Ibaa's original question, trying to make a blanket pronouncement
on the work of many authors over some hundreds of years can't really be
done. If you are interested in a particular section, there is a lot of
work by archaeologists, historians and other scholars that you can
consult to answer your questions. If you want some guidence as to what
authors and books are good ones, then post a more specific question
giving details of what you wish to find out. There are a number of
people reading this group who could point you in the right direction.


> --
> Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | 

--
                                                                     ___
Bill Rea                                                            (o o)
-------------------------------------------------------------------w--U--w---
| Bill Rea, Computer Services Centre, | E-Mail   b.rea@csc.canterbury.ac.nz |
| University of Canterbury,           | or     cctr114@csc.canterbury.ac.nz |
| Christchurch, New Zealand           | Phone (03)-642-331 Fax (03)-642-999 |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kopfj@bert.Tymnet.COM (John Kopf,D,6305)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Which Came First, Agriculture or Pastorialism? [LONG]
Date: 4 Jan 93 22:53:25 GMT
Reply-To: kopfj@bert.Tymnet.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems


....Of course, herds are MUCH more "portable" than crops, and so are much more
compatible with nomadic society...towns and cities appear to be tied to crops.

John
From: mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Roman Nails
Date: 5 Jan 93 20:08:11 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

Daniel Dagan writes:
  Article: 3240 of sci.archaeology
  From: RPRDANI@TECHNION.BITNET (Daniel Dagan)
  Subject: Roman Nails Catalog
  Message-ID: <92362.113530RPRDANI@TECHNION.BITNET>
  Date: 28 Dec 92 02:50:41 GMT
  Organization: TECHNION - Israel Institute of Technology.

  Can anybody tell me where one can find references on Roman nails?
  Photographs, manufacture process etc.
  Thanks in advance.
  dd

No references, but I hope this is of some help:

From 'Metals in the Service of Man'
by William Alexander and Arthur Street
Penguin Books Ninth Edition 1989

 "  Inchtuthill, a Roman site near Perth 
  in Scotland,was built in AD 83 as the
  advance headquarters of Agricola.  The
  legion was withdrawn after only six
  years and was instructed to leave no-
  thing that could help the enemy.
  Timber was removed, pottery smashed, 
  and wattle burned; but one valuable 
  load could not be destroyed and had
  to be buried in a pit two metres deep.
  it consisted of 763,840 small, 85,128 
  medium, 25,008 large and 1344 extra-
  large iron nails.  The small ones were
  50mm long and the extra-large were
  magnificent tapered spikes 400mm long,
  square in section, with solid heads.

    In 1961 the late Sir Ian Richmond of
  Oxford discovered and unearthed the
  nails, a few of which, in the centre
  of the dump, were remarkably well
  preserved.  Experts in early metallurgy
  reported that the composition of the
  metal varied from pure iron to high
  carbon steel.  Their observations
  supported the view that early smelting
  processes produced a spongy mass of iron
  which was then repeatedly heated and
  hammered to consolidate it and to
  expel entrapped slag."

You might find it worthwhile making enquires on a new
newsgroup called, I think, rec.craft.metalworking.
-- 
 ',' ' ',','  |                                                  |  ',' ' ',','
   ', ,','    |       Del Cotter       mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk      |    ', ,','  
     ','      |                                                  |      ','    
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: mab@wdl39.wdl.loral.com (Mark A Biggar)
Subject: Re: Early history of dragons
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Distribution: world,local
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:25:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.115830.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> gann@violet.ccit.arizona.edu writes:
>In article <LEET.93Jan6083905@ibis.ims.com>, leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:
>> There is some evidence which would suggest that large saurian creatures
>> existed contemporaneous with humans - primarily, cave art.  If so (*IF*!!),
>> it is possible that dragon legends are merely embellished factual stories.
>> Consider primitive man's first encounter with a Komodo dragon, for example.
>  I'd say YIKES! and run like hell :)
>    Hmmmmm, interesting point for indonesians, but I dont remember any
>evidence for large saurian creatures existing elsewhere (in human history at
>least).  Be that as it may you do have a valid point.  Inflation of normal
>creatures to fantastic size would seem to be a fairly normal trend in
>legend-crafting. Next question...What sort of lizards live in europe :)

There use to be large salt-water crocodiles in the Eastern Med similar to
those found on the Northern Australian Coast.  Some people have theorized that
both the Persesus saving Andromeda and the St. George vs the dragon stories
evolved out of stories dealing with such Croc's.

--
Mark Biggar
mab@wdl1.wdl.loral.com

Newsgroups: sci.archaeology