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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 09:57:22 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      What Happened to Timothy?

The reason I am reading the few Christian writings that have survived from the
first few centuries, is that I'm searching for info. about St. Paul's "own son
in the faith," to whom he wrote two pastoral epistles in the NT.

What ever happened to Timothy?  I'd be happy also to find the same about Titus.
 I'm interested in more than simply what offices they held.  I want to know
what of that good deposit from the Apostle they faithfully taught.

Having read the early church fathers up to Clement of Alexandria thus far, and
much of Eusebius' Eccesiastical History, I have found almost nothing at all,
except that Tim was said to have become bishop of the church at Ephesus at some
point in time.  Having checked the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, I
also found one reference to a 4th century document entitled "The Acts of
Timothy," but I don't know where to find a copy of this (translated into
English, of course).

Any pointers would be very welcome!

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:23:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      Your Place in Heaven

   Jesus mentioned that he goes and prepares a place for us in Heaven.
What do you think your place would be like?

Carl----+
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 23:48:20 -0600
From:         "(Glenn Radinsky)" <S05152@DOC.FLC.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Response to Doug's posting

                     September 30, 1992

Dear Doug:

     You say:

>     I have run into an interesting situation.  In speaking
> with a young man, I learned that he believes that he has
> been a "Christian" since birth.  His reply to my question,
> "So how long have you been a Christian?" also referred to
> his baptism as an infant as proof of his salvation.

>     Now I know that some will disagree with me, but I
> believe that the Bible teaches that a person must
> willfully accept Christ in order to be saved.

     I think that Biblically speaking, infant baptism is not
sufficient to make someone a Christian.  As you state above,
this person must willfully make the decision to make Jesus
Christ his Lord and Savior.  In Romans it says "Those who
believe in their hearts that Jesus is Lord and confess with
their mouths that Jesus is Lord will be saved."  It is an
active choice to believe and so confess that Jesus is Lord
of his life, and I don't think anything less than this is
good enough.  Once this decision has been made, it should
begin to make itself evident through things like changes in
behavior.  Thanks for writing to all of us about this, and I
will pray for this person, whoever he is.

                         God Bless,



                            Glenn
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From: mjenkins@alfred.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Maranantha Ministries
Date: 3 Oct 92 03:24:49 GMT
Organization: Carleton University

I'm a graduate student in journalism at Carleton University in Ottawa,
Canada.

I'm doing my thesis on the rush of end-time prophesy and rapture
predictions this decade.

Tonight (Friday) on CNN I caught the tail end of a piece on a Korean
church called Maranantha Ministries whose pastor apparently received a
vision from God that the rapture would be October 28 of this year and
Christ would return in 1999.

Does anybody have an address, phone number or even a city for this
ministry? I didn't catch it from the CNN report.

Responses can be posted or e-mailed.

Thanks in advance for any leads.

Michael Jenkinson
mjenkins@ccs.carleton.ca
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:58:02 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Right Standing with God?

Jesse,

I would select option "A".

Now, lest you or others think that I am advocating salvation by works,
please allow me to elaborate.  Because of the nature of justification,
Christ's perfect obedience to the Law of God, His perfect righteousness
is imputed to us.  Thus, when God looks at us, He sees Christ's perfect
righteousness.

Please note that I am not dealing with the "mechanics" of this process.
If I were, then my answer would have been "B", since it is by grace through
_faith_ in Christ's atoning sacrifice that God imputes His Son's perfect
righteousness to us.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:14:13 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Watching How We Think (was Politics)
              28 Sep 1992 17:08:59 GMT from <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

Darren:

Could you do me a favor and name 15 celebrities who are "public
Christians" that have a following of any consequence?

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 12:52:10 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 10/6

"Brothers, I want you to know what happened to our ancestors who followed
Moses.  They were all under the cloud, and they all went through the sea.  They
were all baptized as followers of Moses in the cloud and in the sea.  They all
ate the same spiritual food.  And they all drank the same spiritual drink.
They drank from that spiritual rock that was with them.  That rock was Christ.
But God was not pleased with most of them.  They died in the desert.

"And these things that happened are examples for us.  They should stop us from
wanting evil things as those people did.  Do not worship idols, as some of them
did ... We should not take part in sexual sins, as some of them did ... We
should not test the Lord as some of them did ... And do not complain as some of
them did" (1 Corinthians 10:1-10).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 10:40:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      Up or Down?

Seems like Christia is down, or it is up and our server at RU is down and
will not accept mail.
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 10:52:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      More on C.G. Finney.

Stephen,

Well, I think I'd disagree about Finney's value to the Christian church.
You observed in the last part of your post that he was confused over seeing
those who responded in his revivals return to their former ways.  Finney
tried to create revivals instead of letting the Spirit do this.  A human
cannot create a revival.  He "burned over" millions of people, wither
directly, or indirectly via gossip and people who knew those who had been
"saved."

Finney pummeled people into coming foreward and repenting.  I do not at all
doubt there were genuine conversions there, but they were in spite of him,
not because of him.  His "worry bench" is one of the most heinous crimes in
the annals of Christian evangelism.

It is true that much of the Presbyterian Calvinism of the time was lifless,
no excuse there.  Finney, however, beat on people's emotions to gain a
false repentance and then left the people without any support of any kind.
They would have been better not to have ever heard the gospel than hear it
in the form of his presentations.

I'm sorry, I get carried away about Finney because I have seen so much
glowing stuff written about a man who should have the roundest condemnation
of the Christian denominations.

Anyway, I should shut up on this one, now seems like a good time. [grin]

Dan Graham
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 20:46:20 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: More on CG Finney

Subject: Re: More on CG Finney


Previously ------------------------------------------------------------->
> I'm sorry, I get carried away about Finney because I have seen so much
> glowing stuff written about a man who should have the roundest condemnation
> of the Christian denominations.

I think balance is called for. Finney deserves our respect, but not
uncritically. As with any man of God, there was good and there was bad.
May God grant that we do not miss the good because the bad blinds us.

Remember that many people would rightly criticize Luther on many things
(his temper for instance, or the way he treated Zwingli), but here was a
man so signally used of God that the whole world has changed through him.

MAKS> This reminded me of a sermon series by either Star Scott or perhaps
      even Chuck Smith. I think the title was "Touch Not The Lord's
      Anointed".

      The series itself dealt with David and Saul. This was during the
      time that Saul was fallen from grace and David was soon to be
      the new king. It talked about the many times that David could have
      killed Saul, could have taken his life, perhaps justly, and would
      not, because Saul was the Lord's Anointed.

      Even later, when a soldier brought the story of how he killed
      Saul as per his request, David had the soldier killed for killing
      Saul.

      It just came to mind as were were discussing the "great men of
      the faith". Maybe Finney had problems, we can discuss them,
      and use them as examples for us to avoid. For instance, I think
      it was Billy Sunday that said he should have spent more time
      with his sons.

      I think we should be quite careful of condemning the men
      themselves. If God has laid His blessing upon some man, I would
      not want to be the one to insinuate that God made a mistake.
      I wouldn't want God asking me, as Job, "Where were you when I
      hung the stars in space?"

      Myself, I find it quite humbling to see that God uses sinners
      and people who are not perfect. Then, miracles of miracles, He
      can even use me!!!! :-) What a God He is!!!


Maks
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 08:46:58 PDT
From:         ng910@GVAL1.PNL.GOV
Subject: Re: Is my salvation the only thing that matters?

Gareth,

	Your arguements are good, in as far as they go.  But you have missed
a very important point.  It is in Ephesians 2, the basic jist of the
chapter is  that once you are saved, you are saved to do those good works
which God has prepared in advance for you.

	In other words, you are correct that it is a Gospel of Works, but
only of Works *after* salvation.  Prior to that, it is very important to
be reconciled to God so that we do not fall into the trap of giving glory
to ourselves for doing the works that God enabled us to do.

	I will agree that the discussion of purgatory is a secondary issue,
but the searching for salvation is *primary* nothing is less important than
knowing Christ as Saviour and Lord.  Do not confuse sanctification after
death (purgatory) with salvation which is a conscious act made in life,
they are distinctly different in that if you do not choose to follow God,
you will never be "purged" of any inequities which you failed to conquer.

Your Brother in Christ,

Dave Wagle		ng910@gval1.pnl.gov
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 11srust@gallua.gallaudet.edu (Scott A. Rust)
Subject: Who to contact (FAQ, anyone?)
Organization: Gallaudet University English Dept
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:39:20 GMT


Sorry to have to post this, but I was unable to find an FAQ post anywhere in
this newsgroup and am interested in joining this group's mailing list. Can 
some one E-mail me and inform me who I need to contact?

Thanks in advance and God bless.

Scott Rust
11srust@gallua.gallaudet.edu
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:26:26 CDT
From:         "(Brad Kaiser)" <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      re: IS GOD EVIL?
              29 Sep 1992 13:11:26 CDT <9209291818.AA27711@motgate.mot.com>

Michele Lofton writes:

>> > (from the King James): "And the Lord repented.."
>> > (NIV translation): "Then the Lord relented.."
>> > (New Oxford):  "And the Lord changed his mind..."

>> There are major differences in the versions shown.  We must remember that
>> humans wrote and translated the Bible into their own perceptions, which is
>> the only way they can.  No one is going to know how great the power of God
>> is. I believe the second one to be the more correct translation, although
>> it may have seemed at the time the authors wrote this that God had indeed
>> changed his mind.

Well put!

Something else to consider: the English language has changed greatly
since the time of the KJV.  In reading it, or Shakespeare (for example),
it's important to remember that back then, ordinary English men and
women really spoke like that in everyday life.

Today, we hear "repent" and think of "repenting from sin".  Back then,
it's not at all clear that the word necessarily had that connotation;
it may well have meant just "to change one's mind".

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

	  Those who trust in Him shall understand truth,
	  and the faithful shall abide with Him in love;
	  Because grace and mercy are with His holy ones,
	  and His care is with His elect.
		    -- Wis 3:9 [NAB]
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 08:11:36 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Limited Atonement

Dear Stephen Kinston ;

The "all" and "everyone" language is never exclusively used for universal
purposes.

I John 2 shows that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the "whole world."
However, 1 John 5 indicates that the "wholeworld" is under the power of
the evil one.  Well, are Christians under the power of the devil??

Also, the Pharisees once stated that "... Look, the WHOLE WORLD has gone
after Him."  Obviously Innuits and Aborigines were not crossing oceans to
come to Christ.

So, we let context rule these things.




Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 09:41:59 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      FINNEY

> In fact, Finney denied the work of
> the Spirit which Jesus clearly states is the unpardonable sin.

> Dan

Well, I have a friend who is reading the sermons of Finney, And he said that
this is simply not true.  When I related this to him, he said that he had
just finished reading a sermon in which Finney said that one couldn't come to
Christ without the Spirit's enabling.

Mark
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 15:59:05 CDT
From:         Jesse Irwin Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Scriptures versus Rome

Dear All on Christia ;

I have seen a lot on the "Net" lately on Catholicism versus
"anti-Catholicism."

Everyone on the net knows my views on this issue, since I have rendered
forth a number of posts on related topics.

Nevertheless, I have many friends who used to be Catholic and MOST of my
presnt local Church was formerly Catholic.
Further, I used to attempt to work with Catholic students ... i.e, share
the Gospel with them ... No, NOT go in and tell them "You are ALL going
to Hell and Purgatory has been cancelled ... Nah, Nah, nuh Nah Nah!"

I have a burden for those who are Catholic ... I am concerned.

But the issue of highest importance is the Gospel as I have said SO
many times and it is ROME's Gospel which differs from what Scripture
asserts.

Truthfully, blurring this Prime Directive is a serious blunder on Rome's
part, as well as adding "Supra-Scriptural" things.

I ask ... I humbly recommend to Catholics to prayerfully read the books
of Romans and Hebrews and compare them with what Rome OFFICIALLY teaches.



In Christ' Sovereign Love ;

Jesse Irwin Carnes
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 14:10:44 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      RE:JOB OPENING
              at Oct 2, 92 1:45 pm

>
>Would you feel the same way if a Catholic wanted a job teaching to
>Protestants?
>
>Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
>
I would expect that

a) The job would be advertised to christians..
b) the applicant was willing to abide by the leadership of those over him and
   to not cause trouble..

I would not stop a catholic teaching protestants for the sake of them being
catholic, no..



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: iain@ee.ryerson.ca (Iain Campbell)
Subject: Re: a prayer
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:02:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.154427.22216@infodev.cam.ac.uk> gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan) writes:
>I have eaten,
>I have eaten too much,
>I have eaten only because others have done so,
>Because I was invited,
>Because I was in the world and the world would not have understood;


For an interesting perspective on the question of world poverty/hunger
etc, have you read "Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt 
Manipulators", Author David Chilton?  If you can't track down a copy,
e-mail me and I'll try to source you one.

The book is written as a response to the book "Rich Christians in an
Age of Hunger" author Ron Sider.  It's not a simple issue, and I suggest
you might want to read Chilton.  

Iain


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 78witherspoo@cua.edu
Subject: Questions for the Group
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 22:52:22 GMT

Hello All--

	I come with several questions which I hope someone out there can
answer.   A bit of background first: As I happen to be a graduate acting
student at Catholic University of America, one of my classes this semester is
"Performance Lab".  We are basically producing a play and documenting our
process and progress.  We have selected an offbeat little show entitled:
"Some Things You Need to Know Before the World Ends: a final evening with the
Illuminati", written by members of a theatre group called The Southern Theatre
Conspiracy.  I won't go into the plot at this time, but religion has a lot to
do with it. 

	Which brings me to my questions:

		1. Where is Bemidji and what is its signifcance?

		2. What is the "cult" of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
		   (If anyone has any historical references or other
		    info. that would be really cool!)

	There they are!  I turn to all of you because you have demonstrated
your vast collective knowledge about various issues in the past.  Do yourselves
proud!


Love and good walking,

Tom Witherspoon

-- please reply to 78witherspoo@cua.edu --


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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 03:17:14 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Michaelmas (29 Sept)

MICHAEL AND ALL ANGELS (29 SEPT)

The Holy Scriptures often speak of created intelligences other than
humans who worship God in heaven and act as His messengers and
agents on earth. We are not told much about them, and it is not
clear how much of what we are told is symbolic. They are mentioned
by Jesus as watching over children (Mt 18:10) and rejoicing over
penitent sinners (Lk 15:10).

Michael the Archangel is mentioned by name in Daniel (10:13ff;
12:1), Jude (9), and Revelation (12:7-9). Gabriel is mentioned by
name in Luke (1:19,26). Raphael is mentioned in the apocryphal book
of Tobit, and many other names are assigned to angels in Jewish
rabbinical writings and folklore.

On the Feast of Michael and all Angels, popularly called Michaelmas,
we give thanks for the many ways in which God's loving care watches
over us, both directly and indirectly, and we are reminded that the
richness and variety of God's creation far exceeds our knowledge of
it.

PRAYER
   Almighty and everlasting God, who hast constituted the services
   of angels and men in a wonderful order: Mercifully grant that,
   as thy holy Angels always do thee service in heaven, so, by thy
   appointment, they may succour and defend us on earth: through
   Jesus Christ our Lord.
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From: spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Peter Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Heaven,
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:58:27 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth

Steve Creps wrote:
|> ...  Again, James is good reading for the Catholic understanding
|> of the relationship between faith and works (i.e. it says we are not
|> justified by faith alone).
|> 

I disagree.  I believe that James believed firmly in that great doctrine of 
justification by faith alone. Look at James 2:23 where he says:

"the scripture was fulfilled which said Abraham believed God and it was credited
to him as righteousness."

James is not talking about justification through works, nor even perseverence 
through works. He is talking about sanctification.

I have written an article on the famous "will his faith save him" passage of 
James, and this may be found as part of my "ONCE SAVED" essay in the 
CHRISTIA library. I can understand that you will see the content of James 
in a different light to me, but to say that James teaches that we are justified 
by works (as opposed to faith alone) is not a foregone conclusion.

Stephen.

-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
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