HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia Campus Computing, 314-882-2000
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 10:06:18 CDT
From:         Elizabeth Stevens <CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Direct Revelation, passe?

On Tue, 18 Aug 1992 09:26:01 CDT Jesse Carnes said:
>We are talking simply this : "Is the Written Word of God SUFFICIENT or not?
>If so, then all direct revelation is superfluous as per post canon.
>If not, then we have no objective, absolute criterion by which to evaluate
>these "Johnnys come lately" who bring their "direct revelations" with them.
>
The Bible is sufficient. However, we are human and weak. And all who
close their ears to the works of God today are not hearing the urgent
pleas He is sending through Jesus and Mary to LIVE the Word because
His Justice is coming.

He is not revealing something *new* in these private revelations. He
is reminding us to go back to what He told us in the Gospels. To
love one another. To care for one another. And that the things of
this world mean nothing, they will all pass away. How many people
do you know who *truly* live this way?

This is the value of the private revelations. As any good parent
teaches a child, but cannot stand by silent when they see them on
the road to "perdition", so God sends His urgings to us to call us
back to Him. And time is running out.

In His Love,
Elizabeth
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:03:31 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Toleration of Immorality
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

>Should Christians tolerate others,in their company, who openly sin?
[verses quoted at the end of this post.]

You'll notice that Paul here says that we are not to tolerate within the church
open immorality.  These verses do not speak about nonchristians.

And no, while I think that it is our responsibility to love "sinners",
and to be involved in their lives (ministry in christian slang), I am not
saying that we should be around for the "sinning".  That is a kind of approval.
But we should always be there for them after.


Mark
drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu

>1 Corinthians 5:1-2  It is actually reported that there is immorality among
>you, and of a kind that is not even found among pagans; for a man is living
>with his fathers wife.  And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn?
>Let him who has done this be removed from among you.


>Revelation 2:20  But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman
>Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my
>servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

>Vernon
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 18:42:00 EST
From:         "David J. Moreau" <DMOREAU@DRUNIVAC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jesus ... OR Pope?

>A true Christian has only one ultimate loyalty and that is to Christ and Christ
>alone ... not Christ AND the Church ... or Christ AND the Pontifex Maximus in
>Rome, and so forth.

Christ and his Church are one, because the Church is his body (col
1:18).  I am not defending the RCC, but we shouldn't belittle the
Church if Christ decided to build it (Matt 16:17).  It is in the
Church where God puts those who are to be saved (John 6:44; Acts
2:47).

I do agree with one idea that is in your statement.  If you are
following the edicts written by man, which are contradicting the
words of God found in the Bible, the you have divided loyalties.  I
believe that this point is implied it what you already stated.

>Now, in our powerless and depraved condition, what can be done to save us
>from eternal Hell?  A substitute has to come in and do for us what we could
>not do.

What about the law of God listed in Deut 24:16, "a person is to be
put to death only for a crime he himself has committed."  How could
Christ die for our sins?  According to this law of God, we must die
for our own sins?

>Jesus Christ did just that.  He satisfied the justice of the Father by being
>a sin substitute for all those whose sins were imputed Himself.

But inorder for him to die for our sins, he had to build his Church.
If we are in his Church, then we are one with Christ, the SAME person
in effect - He is the head, and the Church is the body. ONE new man
(Eph 2:15).

>By bearing the sins of these people, He propitiated the wrath of the Father
>and reconciled THEM to God the Father with whom emnity had been the former
>state of things due to our sins.

Yes, but only those who are in the Church established by Christ.  We
must never forget the importance of the Church of Christ.  I am not
defending the Catholic Church, for I do not claim that it is the
Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ.

>So, God made a people righteous in a substitute, apart from any good works
>of their own.

It's incredible how lucky man is that God is so merciful.

>Jesse Carnes

There were some other points that I wanted to agree with, but I am
out of time.

David Moreau
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:53:20 -0500
From:         MARCI HENDRIX <HENDRIX@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      netnews

Madge:  I was just wondering about netnews.  Does that mean we are hooked
up to people that aren't listed if we send a listserve request to review
the members?  Out of curiosity, how many more people than who's listed
might be receiving our list.  Interesting to wonder how many people are
involved in our list.  Marci
From: parsons@cis.ksu.edu (Scott S Parish )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Benny Hinn and Healing
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:46:57 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cygnus.cis.ksu.edu

Braden, Glen <d246@UNI05.LARC.NASA.GOV> writes:

>Concerning Benny Hinn and Healing... What makes you think that satan doesn't
>have the power to heal?????

Satan probably does have the power to heal.  But if you've went to a Hinn
crusade you'd know that this is utterly proposterous to suggest or imply.  
Every praise that is given, every song that is sung, and every testimony is
given to the glory of God and Jesus Christ.
 
-- 
Scott Parish                |  The Truth is still the Truth      |  John 14:6
parsons@cygnus.cis.ksu.edu  |  even if you choose to ignore it.  |
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Thursday, 13 Aug 1992 22:42:03 EDT
From: <32WENPW@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: christian faculty/staff fellowship

Hi, having just discovered this bulletin board, I would be interested in findin
g out about christian faculty/staff fellowships in other universities.  At Cent
ral Michigan Univ. we have had a group of 5-15 faculty and staff meeting off an
d on for the last 3 years.  (5-10 faculty, 5-10 non-faculty staff)  Some of us
will also start a Grad fellowship this fall.
   With work/teaching/research, etc. it is hard to keep meeting regularly and d
oing something meaningfull and I'd be interested in what other groups are doing
...
                            ken

(Ken W. Smith, Math Dept, Central Mich. Univ.)
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07:54:19 CDT
From:         Elizabeth Stevens <CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Direct Revelation, passe?

On Thu, 20 Aug 1992 06:43:19 EDT Marty Helgesen said:
>tions at Medjugorje have not been approved by the Church.  Technical-
>ly the question is still open, but it is important to note that the
>local bishop does _ not _ believe that God is sending Our Lady to
>Medjugorje.
>
Marty,
If you feel it is important to tell everyone (some who have never even
heard of Medjugorje, let alone have access to information about it)
that the *local* bishop does not approve of the apparitions at
Medjugorje, then would you please also take time to explain the situation
to them involving this bishop ( who was at first a supporter of
the visionaries). Half-truths can be quite misleading.

It also may be helpful to point out the positive statements that have
been made by others, all the way up to Pope John Paul II.

Thanks!
Elizabeth
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Morris Cerullo
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:50:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug18.162914.21947@aber.ac.uk>, spk@uk.ac.aber (Stephen Kingston) writes...
>Last sunday (16th) the BBC broadcast a programme called "Heart of the 
>Matter" looking at the recent "Mission to London" led by Morris 
>Cerullo and examining his extravagent claims that thousands were 
>healed in each meeting.

[...]

>It was thus seen that this particular "big gun" in charismatic healing 
>circles could not produce any evidence whatsoever to back up his 
>original claim that thousands would be healed.
> 
>Personally I am not surprised by these findings. I'm sure that similar 
>findings would be true of many other "charismatic healers". My question 
>is this:
> 
>Why do we allow this nonsense to continue within the church?

	Stephen,

		What can we do? We don't really 'allow' this, as much 
it is usurped in the name of the church. And this is not a new item 
either. There have been masquerade believers and false gospels since 
the beginning of the church. There has always been wolves dressed as 
sheep. How can we stop them? Can they be stopped?


 en agape,
 Bob 



		
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:55:14 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Direct Revelation, passe?

Marty:

When I asked about the local bishop, I guess what I'm asking is what
the Church concludes generally about an apparition if it does not
recognize it as genuine.  Does it assume that such things are demonic,
delusional, or what?  Or is it a case-by-case thing?  Is there
an official teaching on this?

Just wondering.  Thanks.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Trusting Scoutmasters
Organization: Glassboro State College (But Not For Long!)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 17:28:39 GMT


In reply to an earlier article, several people have made comments to the
effect that they would not send their kids out with a homosexual Scoutmaster;
one typical (and well-phrased) example from Joe Moore:

> Adultery and homosexuality are both wrong (not according to me---according
> to scripture).  If someone openly practices either they should not be role
> models for our kids.

This has two problems:

 a) Most Christians believe that, according to the Bible, it is wrong to
    teach religions like Islam and Buddhism -- but people who teach these
    things are permitted to be Scoutmasters.

 b) That standard is not what is actually being used.

(a) is self-explanatory, but (b) may require some elaboration.

In at least one case that I know of, a scoutmaster was ejected because he is a
homosexual.  Nothing was said about his being a *practicing* homosexual, or
his being a bad role model -- in fact, everybody agreed that he was an
exemplary Scout.  Simply because he is attracted to men, he was kicked out.

By this standard, a celibate Christian homosexual would not be permitted to be
a Scoutmaster -- even though the Boy Scouts do accept sexually active single
heterosexuals.  (I've known one such person who was an assistant Scoutmaster,
and against whom no objections were ever raised.)


The people who have been posting have said vaguely sensible things, depending
on how one interprets various Biblical passages.  But what they've said has
little to do with the standards the Boy Scouts of America actually use.

My question is this: do you object in principle to celibate Christian
homosexuals?  Is your answer any different for celibate Christian
heterosexuals?  If so, why?

If you object to homosexuals on the grounds that they might be tempted by the
boys they care for, consider the parallel situation of a day care center.
Would anyone here object to a celibate Christian heterosexual man caring for
young girls at a day care center?  If not, would you object to a celibate
Christian homosexual caring for young boys?  If the answers are different,
why?


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
 rearranging their prejudices." -- William James
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:03:06 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      RE:Mary & colour blue
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com
              13 Aug 1992 13:16:38 -0400 <9208131721.AA24948@motgate.mot.com>

Vernon Galloway writes:

>> I don't want to start an argument with our RC list members, but another view
>> of REV 12 is that the woman is Israel through v 5 and the church thereafter.

You're entitled to that view, but I find it hard to accept.  V.5
speaks of her "son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with
an iron scepter" and who was "snatched up to God".

Why would the church be identified as a "male child" (the church is
traditionally feminine in Latin, and I believe in Greek as well), and
in what sense could she "rule all the nations with an iron scepter" ?

Just the phrase "rule all the nations with an iron scepter" is very
reminiscent of the OT prophecies of the Messiah, to my ears.

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:26:57 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Wink, Varner
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              dhahran" at Aug 17, 92 12:26 pm

>Also, a few years ago I read a book by Walter Wink called Naming the Powers
>(or something like that).  Recently I read an article in a magazine that
>mentioned his ideas about "powers and authorities," as they relate to the
>illegal drug industry that was quite interesting.
>
>Has anyone out there read his book?  What did you think?  How about some of
>you "charismatics?"  I know Ian, your Church probably has some teaching on
>this...
>

Eh as far as demonic powers and the drug industry per sae goes, then no
we do not have any specific teaching

>What are some good sources of information on "territorial spirits" etc??
>

There are SEVERAL good books on territorial spiritis, 'Taking Our Cities
for God' is a good one although the author escapes me at the momemt..

There is considerable biblical evidence for powers being over cities,
such as the reference to the the Spirits behind the prince of persia, king
of tyre etc etc (whore of babylon)..


>                                         Irini pasi, Zane.
>



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
From: willm@igd.fhg.de (Matt Will)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Authority of the Bible (was Re: Bible)Path: garfield!willm
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:35:27 GMT
Organization: Zentrum fuer Graphische Datenverarbeitung, 6100 Darmstadt, Germany


Dear James,

it is most certainly valid to ask the questions you are asking. I have done so myself, and I guess there is no easy answer to the questions concerning the inerrancy and authority of the Bible, let alone the meaning of verbal inspiration. 

While I believe the authors of the different books which form the OT and NT canon
were writing under guidance of the Holy Spirit (by this I mean, IMHO, that God somehow motivated them to start writing down their experiences with Him...sorry, it's not easy for me to put this in words), I think because of their limited understanding (we may know better on a lot of things, but still we don't know everything!), the books of the bible also present a limited view (concerning scientific questions) which may also be biased. I think we always have to remember that it is a collection of books pen






ned down by humans, so we shouldn't mistake the Bible for God! Still, the Bible is authoritative (and rightly so, to cite Frank Zappa) because it is a unique record of God's history with mankind.

I'm sure others on the list may be more eligible to talk about this topic than I 
am, so if you think my posting is of general interest, you may post it on the list.

Hope this helped,
Matt Will (willm@igd.fhg.de)




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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:16:10 EDT
From:         WALTER SHERRILL <SHERRIWR@DUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: I need more time!

I need more time to reply also, but I managed this reply window in. Time seems
to be one commodity that isn't controllable. We must redeem the time seeing
that the days are evil.
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:17:18 -0600
From:         Vernon Galloway <gallowav@CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Subject:      RE:Judging others

In Message Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:55:53 EDT,
  Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> writes:

>Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
>Phone: 588-6757
>
>
>> Should Christians tolerate others,in their company, who openly sin?
>
>> 1 Corinthians 5:1-2  It is actually reported that there is immorality among
>> you, and of a kind that is not even found among pagans; for a man is living
>> with his fathers wife.  And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn?
>> Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
>> THE LORD HAS SPOKEN!!
>
>> Revelation 2:20  But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman
>> Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my
>> servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.
>> THE LORD HAS SPOKEN!!
>
>> Vernon
>
>This is a bit confusing to me...I always thought that one of the main
>teachings of Christianity is "Judge not lest you be judged" yet here
>the bible clearly tells people to judge others and only stay with people
>who are "worthy".  Doesn't this also mean that witnessing is out of the
>question since you can't be around "unworthy" people?

Angela, I think there is some confusion here.  We are instructed to help our
Christian brothers and sisters who are in sin.  We are to help them overcome
whatever their problem is. There are some specific instructions on how to do
this.  Marty Helgesen posted some information on this process.  If this
fails and they persist in their sinfull behaviour, then we should remove
them from our midst.  Note that Rev 2:21 states that Jezebel at Thyatira was
given time to repent but refused.  The church at Corinth was "arrogant" in
that they not only accepted the sin, but were proud that they accepted it.

Christ associated with and accepted sinners, but He did not accept or
condone their sin.  His conversation with the woman at the well contained a
rebuke, although gentle, for her sin.  His response to the money changers was
severe.

We must be discerning in dealing with non Christians.  Some need to see us
living Christian lives.  Others need to have the "tough love" idea applied.
At other times we need to seperate ourselves completely from them.

I hope this helps explain my thoughts.  I will not be reading replys, since
I will be away the rest of the week.

Vernon


Vernon Galloway
Gettysburg College
MicroComputer Technician
gallowav@gettysburg.edu
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:18:26 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Q: Origin of the term "mass".

According to Webster, mass is from the Latin verb for 'to dismiss'.
I always thought mass was from to be born, as in Christmas.
There must be different origins.

Carol Nemec
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:50:02 PST
From:         FRANK@LAW.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Did JESUS respect beliefs?

> Some questions ... hopefully somewhat penetrating.
>
> First, "Did Jesus respect other's beliefs in general?"
> Second, "Did Jesus respect Nicodaemus' beliefs when He told him '...and
> you are a teacher of Israel'?"
> Third, "Did Jesus respect other's beliefs when He told the Pharisees, 'You
> are badly mistaken in this matter ... make a correct judgement'?"
> Fourthly, "Did Jesus respect other's beliefs when He said to the Pharisees,
> 'You snakes ... vipers ... how will you escape condemnation to Hell'?"


    It seems to me that in these four examples in which you ask "Did
Jesus respect..." the answer would be, who knows?  Now if you had
asked "Did Jesus repect the values of...  or motives of..." then you
can rightfully say, no.


> Lastly, "Did Jesus respect other's beliefs when He said to the
  devil, 'You shall not put the Lord to the test'?"
> (Was Jesus telling the devil that the latterwas WRONG?)


     When Jesus wrestled with Satan he wasn't wrestling with a belief
system as we know it today.  I would say that during those 40 days he
was wrestling with Evil in it's purest form.  No question about
it though, He had absolutely no respect for Satan.
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 05:53:16 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Is the Bible Absolute Truth?

Dear All ;

After hearing from one person, I am prompted to ask the Question : "Is the
Bible a source of Absolute Truth?"

My answer is yes.

The person who got in on the action of the thread, "How important is the
Bible?" stated that Absolute truth was hard to come by once it was in the head
of the person reading it.
I am not sure of all of what this person means, but a few things must be said :


1) God is not "trying" to communicate with us ... He IS communicating with us
in language made of propositional statements that we can understand.

2) God is not trying to speak in uncertain means so as to fool the saved.

3) God is not necessarily attempting to be clear to those who will never come
to Christ.  See Jesus' words about parables and why He used them in the Mark
Gospel.

4) Without ABSOLUTE Truth, nothing has definition down here and if that were
the case, skepticism and resultant nihilism would result.






Jesse Carnes
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