From: mitch@dc49.dc (Mitch Sako)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Cheating at Poker
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:32:44 GMT
Reply-To: mitch@dc49.dc
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation

In article 17740047@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM, bruceh@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM (Bruce Hayek) writes:
>I actually enjoy putting on moves like the one you described:
>"Checking out of turn and then raising."
>I don't know that this is unethical... it's more another form of
>deception to practice to mix up your game, that takes advantage of
>the house rules.  A player who bases his play on your antics deserves
>what he gets....

It's also a good way to cost yourself action in the future.  Most players,
even the clueless ones remember very distinctly dirty play.  They may not
be able to remember who raised before the flop but they will remember to
their grave somebody who was sneaky or dirty against them.
>
>Here's a quickie that's been helpful more than once:
>You've got the big blind.  If you get your cards before you place the
>blind bet out and your looking at two rags, declare "raise" and put
>out two bets.  The dealer will throw back one and with any luck you'll
>be checked around to.  Several times when I've done this everybody
>folded, including the small blind.  :->

Again, this isn't cheating, it's just dirty play.  Now, a variation on
that was when I checked accidently with the big blind, somebody saw
it and raised into me, I looked at them and then re-raised with a rag.
They usually get to see the rag too, I'll either show it or they will
call me down and they will remember my move.  This type of play gains
a great deal of respect from that player and from anyone else at the
table who is watching.  I will usually only do this against a player
who might be raising only because of my mistake (checking out of turn).

>But my favorite deception play along these lines happened at $10-20.
>I found myself sitting on runner-runner quad nines against a guy
>who had flopped a set of J's (he had nut boat when the turn and river
>came 9-9, and was only beat by quad nines.)
>I had slowplayed the turn to set him up for the river, and he really
>had no way to put me on quads

You slowplayed the turn?  You had the worst hand at that time.  Sounds
like you were slowplaying the worst hand.  Probably a smart play considering
you had one out at that time.  Of course if he flopped trip-Js (a set is
when you have a pocket pair, trips are when a pair flops and you have one
in your hand) then you made a fullhouse on the turn.  Of course, if this
was a 10-20 and two jacks came on the flop you should have dumped the
hand immediately when he acted on the flop.

>After a few raises back and forth,
>he was in the process of re-raising me and I pretended that I
>thought he was only calling.  I started to turn my cards over,
>showing only one nine, and said "I've got a nine..."  He assumed
>that I had a 9-J or something, because he ended going at least two
>more bets (one extra raise) than he should've (total of 8 bets).
>To this day I'm convinced that my act fooled him... he really thought
>I had only one nine.  (This story doesn't tell as well as it should;
>circumstances were perfect for the play.)

If you did this play intentionally (miscalling your hand) with the intention
of deceiving him then that's not really cheating.  It's just dirty play.
Since you were not overcalling your hand it's not a problem in most clubs.
A better play would have been "TWO PAIR!"
>
>Personally, I enjoy the "games people play" when "first they practice to
>deceive".  In most cases, you can read the move and know what a bad 
>player is up to, so obviously you take a chance by even trying.
>- b (I fold, oops, I mean raise...) h

My original post regarding cheating had more to do with cheating, that is
illegal plays in a game.  "Moves" which you are referring to are a whole
different matter.  I don't care much for moves and I think you will find that
most top players don't like them either.  They would rather survive on their
playing ability than on making moves.

Here is the best "move" story I can come up with.  There was a limit lowball
game at the old Garden City years ago when they still used paper cards.  One
player got hot and tore up a jack and threw the pieces up in the air.  This
was actually quite common back then, he just paid for a new deck.  My buddy,
Lester picked up the corner of the jack and palmed it.  Later on, he and a 
live one got into a raising battle before the draw, Les had a pat 9 and
the other guy had a pat 10.  Les took the corner of the jack and put it in
the window and showed the other guy.  In those days there was no limits to
the raises and they tapped off, I think 76 bets if I'm not mistaken.  Anyway,
the live one raps pat to Les, Les hems and hahs for awhile and raps pat
back.  The live one says, "give it to me" as he lays down his 9.  Les looks
hat him, his face looking ashen, he looks at his cards, then looking extremely
surprised says, "Hey! I got an 8!" and then lays it down.  The live one got all
bent out of shape and started yelling at Les calling him a cheater.  Les asked
him why.  The live one told him that he saw the jack in the window.  Les said
that it's illegal to look at another guy's cards (back in those days there were
very strict rules against exposed cards) and it was the live one that was 
in fact playing illegally.  The live one never did find out what happened.
I was in the game and I still remember it like it was yesterday.



---
Mitch Sako	LSI Logic Corp.		Phone	408-433-4187
internet:	msako@lsil.com		FAX	408-433-8796
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Disclaimer:	The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone
Newsgroups: rec.gambling