HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mikel@dosbears.UUCP (Mike Lipsie)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Reflections on public transit
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:02:37 GMT
Reply-To: dosbears!mikel@pyramid.com
Distribution: ba
Organization: DOS Bears

In article <1992Nov10.003243.5002@ads.com> henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:
>rchilder@us.oracle.com (Richard Childers) wrote: 
>->
>->Oracle runs a shuttle, but it's cooperatively funded with others in the
>->Redwood Shores region, I believe, runs about once an hour, when it runs
>->at all, and only serves the 'commute' direction, IE, there is no serious
>->effort being made to service people whom might either arrive or depart
>->in the middle of the day.
>
>this is the caltrain shuttle; similar other shuttles run between
>caltrain stations and peninsula employers.

I used to use the Castro Station (Rengstorff Street) shuttle.  It
was funded by CalTrain, the city of Mt. View, and the companies in 
the area (primarily Sun) according to some arcane formula.

Initially, they met all north and south-bound trains during the
"commute time".  They cut out meeting the train from San Jose
because (a) there were less than 25% of the shuttle passengers
on those trains and (b) most of the time, the extra wait was
rather short.

(I was slightly surprised that the SF crowd was three times larger
than the SJ crowd even though the commute time was more than twice
as long.  Then, the SF people are not as emotionally attached to
their cars.)

--
Mike Lipsie                            584 Castro #614, San Francisco, CA 94114
dosbears!mikel@pyramid.com
mikel%dosbears.uucp@ingres.com    Running rn (for DOS) with UUPC/Extended 1.11k
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: BART and other Bay Area transit agencies...
From: jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes)
Date: 19 Nov 92 16:00:46 GMT
Organization: Investment Management Services Inc., NYC

Loren I. Petrich <lip@s1.gov> writes:

	BART also did fairly well in other measures, such as operating
	cost per passenger-mile: 20.9 cents. The champion was
	Vancouver's SkyTrain at 9.8 cents, while the worst was the
	Buffalo light-rail system, was at 58.4 cents.

One of the reasons Buffalo's Metro is so costly is that it's a small
line: a little over 6 miles, with nearly a quarter of it being free in
the downtown area.  Lots of overhead for such a short line.

/jordan
From: mikea@zorba.gvg.tek.com (Michael P. Anderson)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: SFO rail transit setback?
Keywords: Kopp SFO BART CalTrain
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:47:21 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

I support what Kopp is doing. BART under the airport is the only solution.
SOME sort of tunnel needs to be under there, and it may as well be sooner
rather than later. A people mover is yet another short-term solution to
a long-term problem, mainly, the LACK OF VISION of Bay Area politicians and
planners. 

Saying that a people mover is needed because of Big Ding-Ding is like
saying there should be hitching posts at the Kiss 'N Fly roundabout.

Put Big Ding-Ding to rest. Send BART to San Jose. Just because the San
Mateo Board of Supervisors (alias Southern Pacific BODs) blocked BART
during the corrupt 60's doesn't mean the future is forever theirs. It's
time for change. Find the money and do it right this time.

(Ever been to Frankfurt? THREE levels of trains to all of Germany! Is it
that they're just smarter than us?)
								   MPA
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,rec.railroad
From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Ride quality
Followup-To: ba.transportation
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Distribution: ba
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:19:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.205242.14523@s1.gov>, lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
[regarding ride quality]
|> The difference between BART and CalTrain / San Diego LRT?  It would
|> have to be the track.

Mostly track, but equipment also matters.  I've noticed Amtrak's Superliner
cars ride better over the same track CalTrain uses.  Also, when the Capitols
were using CalTrain cars you could easily do some comparisons by moving
back and forth between the Amtrak Horizon fleet coaches and the CalTrain
coaches.  CalTrain's equimpent is a bit rougher riding.  It's probably
got chintzier suspension or something like that.


|> I don't know for sure about the SD LRT, but CalTrain's tracks are
|> wooden-tie tracks that have beenaround for decades and that have
|> experienced an abundance of heavy traffic. 

CalTrain tracks still get very heavy freight trains.  They're less
frequent and shorter than they used to be.  Also, San Diego's line
to Tijuana is a converted freight railroad line.  There are still
active freight sidings off of it, and I believe they are still served
by freight switching runs late at night after the trolley isn't
running.  Heavy freight beats up the tracks and their alignment a
lot more that passenger or light rail equipment.

-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov
From: b_nbca@icarus.lbl.gov (Bruce Nordman)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: BART "State of the System" handout
Date: 17 Nov 1992 01:23:16 GMT
Organization: lbl
Distribution: ba
Reply-To: b_nbca@icarus.lbl.gov (Bruce Nordman)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.12.154

Just a few BART-notes.

My memory is that the transfer between Richmond- and Concord-bound
trains can only be made at 12th Street.  That is, one of the trains
may get to 19th and/or MacArthur, open its doors, and close them
_before_ there is time to enter it from the other train.
SO, transfer as soon as you can, regardless of which direction
you are going.

I find the new "Commuter Channel" TVs annoying, and they actually
provide less information (since the time shows up less often).
With such a big screen, it bothers me that they can't (or won't) put
the time and minutes till next trains in the corner constantly.

I'm glad the Coliseum<->Airport project is going ahead, but
I would sure prefer that they used some standard, existing
technology for it rather than inventing something new, since
I want to use it, not just read about it.

Bruce Nordman
B_Nordman@lbl.gov
From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: SFO rail transit setback?
Keywords: Kopp SFO BART CalTrain
Date: 22 Nov 92 06:50:27 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA

In article <5629@gold.gvg.tek.com>, mikea@zorba.gvg.tek.com (Michael P. Anderson) writes:
> I support what Kopp is doing. BART under the airport is the only solution.
> SOME sort of tunnel needs to be under there, and it may as well be sooner
> rather than later. A people mover is yet another short-term solution to
> a long-term problem, mainly, the LACK OF VISION of Bay Area politicians and
> planners. 
> 
> Saying that a people mover is needed because of Big Ding-Ding is like
> saying there should be hitching posts at the Kiss 'N Fly roundabout.
> 
> Put Big Ding-Ding to rest. Send BART to San Jose. Just because the San
> Mateo Board of Supervisors (alias Southern Pacific BODs) blocked BART
> during the corrupt 60's doesn't mean the future is forever theirs. It's
> time for change. Find the money and do it right this time.

You sound like our president elect!  All you need to do throw the
word 'courage' in there somewhere.

> (Ever been to Frankfurt? THREE levels of trains to all of Germany! Is it
> that they're just smarter than us?)
> 								   MPA

All depends on how you look at it . . . .

jeremy
From: kudzu@netcom.com (Michael Sierchio)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: BART "State of the System" handout
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:53:27 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: True Love, and Home-Grown Tomatoes

In article <1992Nov18.002632.29468@Veritas.COM> 
	 joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy) writes:

>> Weekday ridership was 262000 people/day,
>> while weekend ridership was at a record high. 
>
>Welcome to one of transit's Big Lies: ridership data.  The numbers Loren
>is quoting are boardings per day, not people per day!  Assuming that
>almost everyone takes part to work and back home, the actual number

No, not boardings - the only useful metric is gate entries, or trips.
A person travelling from Concord to Fremont must change trains.

Anyway, 100,000 fewer cars on the road is a good thing, no?

And people carp about BART, but it does what no other Rapid Transit in
the world does, and does it well -- the biggest failures of BART are
AC Transit, MUNI, and all the other connecting transit agencies.
-- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Michael Sierchio                          1563 Solano Avenue, Suite 123 |
|  kudzu@netcom.com                                Berkeley, CA 94707-2116 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Vranich on Texas High-Speed Rail
Date: 19 Nov 92 03:04:52 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA

In article <1992Nov17.175553.19500@ntmtv>, adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
> Here is a press release from Joseph Vranich that I found posted
> on rec.railroad.  I am reposting it here for those who do not
> read that group...
> 
> 
>    "Everyone would be shocked if Texas passed a law putting Southwest
> Airlines under the same laws as high-speed rail," Vranich said.
> "Southwest Airlines would be forced to pay franchise fees to operate
> in the state, Texas airports could not sell tax-exempt bonds,
> airports would be privatized and forced to pay property taxes, and
> inducements that lure industry to airports would be eliminated."
>    He disagreed with legislators who want to restrict the use of
> eminent domain for high-speed rail and to put the fledgling train
> operation under the regulation of the Texas Railroad Commission.
> "Under my proposed bill, the right to use eminent domain to obtain
> land for airports also would disappear and Southwest Airlines would
> also come under the regulatory authority of the Texas Railroad
> Commission."

Okay.  But then we have to place the railroad under control of the
FAA and Texas equivalent, too.

jeremy
From: joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: BART "State of the System" handout
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:32:14 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: VERITAS Software

In article <1ecao9INNsru@agate.berkeley.edu> lazzaro@boom.CS.Berkeley.EDU (John Lazzaro) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.002632.29468@Veritas.COM> joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy) writes:
>
>> Assuming that
>>almost everyone takes part to work and back home, the actual number
>>of people using BART on any day is about 130,000. 
>
>Bad assumption. Lots of people carpool one direction and BART/bus the
>other, 

My understanding is that less than 10% of the BART ridership does this,
but I have no source to site for this.  Do you know of any studies 
showing how common one way commuting on BART is?

Joshua Levy  (joshua@veritas.com)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: murphy@well.sf.ca.us (Daniel A. Murphy)
Subject: Re: SFO rail transit setback?
Keywords: Kopp SFO BART CalTrain
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Distribution: ca
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:11:55 GMT


Kopp has, for some time, pushed the idea of an internal station
at SFO.  At first, it made perfect sense, but given the $500 million
plus price tag, the external station (with people mover to a joint
BART/CalTrain transit center) makes much more sense.  Particularly
considering that Kopp's "internal" station is actually pretty
inconvenient to the actual airport terminals.

Kopp and Bernick are grandstanding (as usual).
-- 
-------------------
Daniel A. Murphy        Net:         murphy@well.sf.ca.us
San Francisco, CA       GEnie:       D.MURPHY11
U.S.A.                  MCI Mail:    377-7947
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:2713 rec.railroad:9080
From: wallich@ncd.com (Ken Wallich)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,rec.railroad
Subject: Re: CalTrain engineer declared innocent
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:59:12 GMT
Reply-To: wallich@ncd.com (Ken Wallich)
Followup-To: ba.transportation
Distribution: ba

czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee) writes:

>And then to arrest him? Even if they didn't handcuff/chain him as a
>suspected felon what is that going to do to him? I hope he gets BIG
>damages.

Arrestees are always hancuffed, even for DUI.  It helps to make the
"suspect" docile, and if they're innocent it stops them from causing
injury to others if they suddenly decide that being treated like a
criminal, without any proof, is not all it's cracked up to be.  As far
as damages, the Police are within their rights to arrest anyone they
personally feel may be guilty of a crime, especially in 'drug' related
instances.  Assuming they didn't beat him, or throw him in solitary
for a month, he would not have a case to bring against the police
department.  Not that he couldn't find a laywer that would try...

If his employeer kept him suspended for no good reason, then he might
have a case against them.  I think it more likely he needed some time
off to get his head back on straight after the accident, and they let
him take the time off (I'd hope with pay).  I'm sure the bureaucracy
inside Caltrain was such that it took a long time to get the paperwork
written, re-written, authorized, lost, and written up again.  Not to
mention the meetings they would have to have to discuss the publicity
problems, and to councel the engineer on the right way to behave.

>Or do the Sunnyvale police think that a train can brake like a car?

They probably noticed that since he was disoriented, having just been
the indirect cause of someone's death, and that he probably couldn't
answer questions very well, or stand up without feeling dizzy.  Of
course, with all the publicity surrounding every death caused by a
train, the police didn't want to appear negligent.  After all, people
should be able to safely linger on and about railroad tracks without
fear of being struck by a train.  That's why they have engineers,
after all.  With all the liablity problems that the transit operator,
the city, the county, the police department, and the specific
individuals involved have to worry about, everyone must be sure to dot
their "i's" when any such incident occurs.

Or maybe someone just screwed up.

--
Ken Wallich
wallich@ncd.com  
ken@wallich.com
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Re: BART "State of the System" handout
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:01:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.175327.23026@netcom.com>, kudzu@netcom.com (Michael Sierchio) writes:
|> And people carp about BART, but it does what no other Rapid Transit in
|> the world does, and does it well

And what might that be?  That is, what does BART do that no other rapid
transit in the world does?  I can't imagine... other than stupid answers
like: "It goes under the San Francisco Bay" (duh), or "it costs lots to
extend and is way over-politicized" (duh).

-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov
From: jlohrmann@igc.apc.org
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: telecommuting
Date: 16 Nov 92 13:53:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Nov13.185953.7027@pasteur.be:-423578730:cdp:1326100015:000:188
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jlohrmann    Nov 16 05:53:00 1992


RE: Problems with telecommuting.

Try asking Marilyn Davis at madavis@igc.org.  She is an academic
dealing with teledemocracy issues and may have some info on
telecommuting.
Jeff Lohrmann
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: BART and other Bay Area transit agencies... (was Re: BART "State of the System" handout)
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:52:42 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: LLNL

In article <shs1djs@sgi.sgi.com> jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.232343.23068@s1.gov>, lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:

	[On bus ride quality...]

>Mostly it is road quality, though bus suspension design hasn't really
>gone anywhere in the last 30 years.  Buses on smooth roads are comfortable.
>On pothole-filled roads, they can be unpleasant.  Much the same with
>rail.  The worst I've been on is San Diego LRT and Caltrain.  Railfans
>may like the lateral jarring.  I don't.  BART doesn't seem to have
>these problems.

	I had taken two AC Transit buses that day. One from Hayward to
Oakland (82L), and one from Rockridge to Berkeley (51). The
Hayward-Oakland ride was unpleasantly bumpy, while the
Rockridge-Berkeley one was actually fairly smooth. Looking at the
roads they went on, the H-O bus went on an average-looking road, while
the R-B bus went on what looked like a freshly paved one.

	As to bumpy rides on trains, if I try, I do manage to notice
some roughness in the BART trains' ride. But most of the time I don't
notice it. It's no worse than a good quality car's ride.

	The difference between BART and CalTrain / San Diego LRT? It
would have to be the track. On nearly all of the BART system, the
rails rest either on a concrete roadbed or on concrete ties. I've seen
wooden ties in a couple of places, such as at switches near the
MacArthur station, but that's about all. I don't know for sure about
the SD LRT, but CalTrain's tracks are wooden-tie tracks that have been
around for decades and that have experienced an abundance of heavy
traffic. The heaviest rolling stock on the BART tracks, however, is
the BART trains (35-ton, 4-axle railcars). The SD LRT also uses
relatively light rolling stock (50(?)-ton, 6-axle articulated
railcars), so some of the problems may be due to bargain-basement
trackwork or use of freight-train tracks. If I remember correctly,
BART was one of the first railroads to have laser-aligned tracks. So
that and the concrete that the rails rest on may be what gives BART a
relatively smooth ride.

	I may note that in the Amtrak 20th anniversary book, there is
a comment from an engineer in a Northeast Corridor train. She pointed
out that one can feel the difference between concrete-tie and
wooden-tie track -- the latter is noticeably rougher.

	So although concrete ties and track beds are more expensive
than wooden ties, they may be worth the extra money in durability and
ride smoothness.
From: mikel@dosbears.UUCP (Mike Lipsie)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: SFO rail transit setback?
Date: 22 Nov 92 06:24:52 GMT
Reply-To: dosbears!mikel@pyramid.com
Distribution: ca
Organization: DOS Bears

In article <1992Nov21.094253.23354@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>	BART to San Jose would be nice, though going underground in
>downtown SJ will be awfully expensive. Even going part of the way
>would be good, however, since BART's Silver Trains good at going very
>fast. The SC 180 express bus goes from Fremont to the San Jose
>Amtrak/CalTrain station in an hour; a BART train could probably make
>it there in less than half the time, and with a much more pleasant
>ride.

The Subject: line isn't quite accurate anymore but I left it as it
was because I couldn't come up with a better one.

The 180 takes about 45 minutes.  At least that was my experience at
12 midnight and at about 2pm on a Saturday.  On the Saturday trip,
I had missed the 2pm train by about 15 minutes. I was able to get
from the CalTrain station to Fremont and then to SF (via BART) in
about an hour and a half.  About the time the next CalTrain was leaving.

I know the BART ride took about 45 minutes and that Fremont is 
"about" as far from SF as Mt. View.  Since the average BART 
speed (stops and all, over the entire system) is slightly faster
than the average CalTrain speed, I concluded that the many, close 
station stops in SF and Oakland slow down the average. (I knew 
that CalTrain did not take a 15 minute coffe break between Mt.
View and SF.)

(As you might remember, a couple months ago I did a "thought experiment"
with the CalTrain schedule and concluded that the average speed would
be about 50mph between SF and SJ if it didn't have to stop at all
those pesky stations.  Each station added about 2 minutes to the
travel time which brought the average speed down to the numbers we
know.  Obviously, the same principle applies to BART -- although
the average time per stop is probably slightly less.  Since the stations
in the two cities are so close together, that probably really drops 
BART's average.  Look what it does to CalTrain's between Hillsdale and 
Bay Meadows.)

--
Mike Lipsie                            584 Castro #614, San Francisco, CA 94114
dosbears!mikel@pyramid.com
mikel%dosbears.uucp@ingres.com    Running rn (for DOS) with UUPC/Extended 1.11k
From: czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,rec.railroad
Subject: Re: CalTrain engineer declared innocent
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:32:17 GMT
Reply-To: czl30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Distribution: ba
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Nov18.192057.1968@ntmtv> adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
>There was a small item in yesterday's (Tue 11-17) SJ Merc that said
>that the Amtrak/CalTrain engineer that was arrested by Sunnyvale
>Police on suspicion of being under the influence of alcohol when
>his train hit and killed a trespasser has had all charges against
>him dropped.  Tests showed no alcohol in his system.  An Amtrak
>spokesman said that the engineer was allowed to resume work as
>soon as the test came back negative but that the engineer is still
>troubled by the incident. 
>
>The accident happened early in the morning about two or three *months*
>ago near the Lawrence station near Lawrence Expressway.  The engineer
>said he spotted the woman crouching on the tracks with her back to
>the approaching train, but it was too late to stop the train.  The
>woman was in her 70's and was reportedly an Alzheimer's patient that
>had "escaped" from her home in the area shortly before the incident.
>For some reason, a Sunnyvale policeman thought the engineer was DUI
>and arrested him at the scene.  I understand from "inside sources"
>that this whole thing ruffled some feathers at Amtrak and among its
>train crews because of jurisdictional questions vis-a-vis the rail-
>road's own police.
>
>I wonder why it has taken so long for this matter to be resolved,
>since the blood test results were presumably known within a matter
>of days (if not hours) after the incident?
>

I don't know this particular case, but from incidents back home in England
the poor driver was probably a basket case from shock. When I saw someone
hit by a train, I was in shock, and I was just waiting on the platform.

And then to arrest him? Even if they didn't handcuff/chain him as a
suspected felon what is that going to do to him? I hope he gets BIG
damages.

Or do the Sunnyvale police think that a train can brake like a car?

>-- 
>
>Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
>UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
>ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov

Chris Lee
From: murphy@well.sf.ca.us (Daniel A. Murphy)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: CalTrain engineer declared innocent
Date: 21 Nov 92 10:07:23 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link


The hysteria about train accidents vs. auto accidents hit a fever
pitch a couple of years ago, after a couple of Amtrak mishaps.  As I
recall very few (if any) people were killed, but we had plenty of 
calls for draconian safety measures for trains.

It really rubs me the wrong way when people can't see the forest for
the pine cones...
-- 
-------------------
Daniel A. Murphy        Net:         murphy@well.sf.ca.us
San Francisco, CA       GEnie:       D.MURPHY11
U.S.A.                  MCI Mail:    377-7947