HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (Piglet)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: who, me?
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:11:52 GMT

In article <BzFIJw.7y0@austin.ibm.com> alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss) writes:
>On the other hand, politically-correct (PC) speech is really tedious.

So is constantly being excluded from discourse about the "generic".
You should try it sometime.  Try a group experiment--use only "she"
and "her", etc., for a day.  You won't enjoy it.

>My daughters don't much care that a lot of their reading refers to
>"he" and "him" - they have enough self-esteem to realize that
>its just a lack of a good English language second-person-neutral
>pronoun.

Well, goody for them.  I do care.  I guess I just don't have
enough self-esteem.  Or maybe it's that I finally do.

The use of the masculine for the generic didn't bother me when
I was younger.  I rather passionately defended the purity of the
English language on more than one occasion.  Then I developed more
self-awareness--started noticing the mental pictures that went
with text I was reading, whether I felt like I was part of the
group being described, etc.

Now, I say that language works for us, not we for it.  It's time
there was a neutral pronoun in English.  Along with a neutral
reference to "man" in the sense of "mankind", and so on.  All
such constructs as "poetess" "actress" "sculptress" "authoress"
should be shot at dawn and burned in effigy.  Along with "Miss"
and "Mrs.".


Piglet
From: s882916@otto (Vikki POLLARD)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: male vs female counsellors
Date: 18 Dec 92 04:16:50 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre
NNTP-Posting-Host: otto.bf.rmit.oz.au

MY LAST, LAST WORD ON THIS BECAUSE IT REALLY BUGS ME THAT I HAVE BEEN MISQUOTED.
I NEVER SAID THAT KERRY NEEDS A WOMAN TO COUNSEL HER AS OPPOSED TO A MAN. i SAID SHE NEEDS SOME FEMINIST COUNSELLING.

IF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT A POSTING ISN'T IT BETTER TO READ THE ORIGINAL RATHER THAN GET THIRD HAND REPORTS!!!!!
vIKKI
________________________________________________________________________________    
REPUNGENT, PRIGGISH, PRUDISH SEPERATIST WHO DISLIKES BEING MISQUOTED
THE FUCKING END
__________
   
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott)
Subject: Re: Coercion v. Rape
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 21:09:24 GMT


In response to Roy,

[And to clarify, the following isn't a counterpoint against Roy, but a
 clarification of my position in response to a scenario he painted.  I
 just don't want anyone to think Roy is arguing the opposite side of what
 I say here, because he definitely is not . . ]


Coercion *is* rape.  If the person doesn't have sex because they want to have
sex, then unless they have an ulterior motive, one is waltzing all over rape
territory.  Making somebody feel inadequate, because they are 'frigid', or
implying that a little timer goes off after you've dated someone for so long
or spent X$ on them, and that timer says 'you owe me sex' is shittily pathetic.
It's not capital 'R' as in criminal conviction rape, but it is small 'r' rape
as in 'I don't give a shit about you now hold still while I get my rocks off'.

When all someone can think of to get sex is badgering or cajoling, rather
than 'I care about you,' or even 'you're really sexy, let's do something
physical' (and then respecting a rejection), maybe we should lock them up
in the Xmuffin's School for the Perenially Stupid and Unromantic, stick on
the X900 hormone pump and hope that there is something left when it is
finished (meaning hope that there is something human to be salvaged).

I dunno, the only difference I see in situations like this is that all the
scars go on the inside where the law can't see them.


Well, I don't think I'll go on, just because I'm getting too depressed by
the topic and the ambient cluelessness of the world.


Brad
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 21:36:37 EST
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Vikki's Problems With Kerry&Me
 <iw.724464203@tosser> <1glubaINNi1s@agate.berkeley.edu>

In article <1glubaINNi1s@agate.berkeley.edu>, rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S.
Rapoport) says:
>
>In article <iw.724464203@tosser> iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly)
>writes:
>->rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>->
>->>In article <iw.724439252@tosser> iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly)
>writes:
>->>->Clue ... BIG CLUE ...  EVEN BIGGER CLUE .... Feminism is not a
>->>->man-bashing movement.
>->
>->>Babe, I didn't say it was.  I did say (somewhere that you didn't include)
>->>that I felt Vikki was manbashing, and that I could match her on this point.
>->
>->QUESTION .... was the word BABE used in this context as some form of cutesey
>->irony, or was it used in the way men regularly use it to dismiss the
>->opinion of a woman.
>
>When someone starts a letter referring to something I say with "Clue ... BIG
>CLUE .... EVEN BIGGER CLUE", I consider that a condescending, patronizing
>tone.
>
>I responded in kind.  Probably inappropriate, since it was an emotional
>response rather than a logical one, but the damage is done ...
>
>-roy
>
>--
>Roy S. Rapoport     internet: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu      bitnet:
>rsrsoda@ucbocf

Y'know, pain is blinding.  One of the things I find (I's probably
best described as 'confused' in this context) interesting is how
much of the identification as 'bi' seems to come through as 'these
people won't hurt me', and how much pain thoughtless remarks from
those people then causes.

Gods know I'm not real good at it, but I've found it very, very
useful to ask myself 'is that pain speaking?', when someone says
something hurtful, or which I *think* is hurtful; it could just
be hurt.
(Yeah, ok, almost completely impossible in ASCII without outright
asking. )
is.  Something to do with recognizing that your image of yourself is
I would like to say something *helpful* at this point, but the only
bit that will come out untangled is that the common characteristic
for being hurt by life is breathing.

Graydon
From: winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Advice Sought
Date: 12 Dec 1992 02:35:47 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments Incorporated, Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: geek.teng.ppd.ti.com

In article <Byzx3q.33C@kathunk.phaedrav.on.ca>, nigel@kathunk.phaedrav.on.ca (Nigel M Burnett) writes:
|> js (winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain) wrote:
|> : 
|> : And what's to do there, besides resorts?  *grin*
|> 
|> To what are you resorting and with whom?
|> 
Well, I have a kid to entertain, too.
Never been anywhere besides Texas for more than a couple of days...
OKAY, Silicon Gultch (tm) doesn't count.  Spent way too much time there to
matter, anyway.  Justa screwed up highway system and too damn many people.
IMPO.

(How many subthreads defending SG have I just created?... the flames are
being lit, I guess...)

*cuddles* to all flame-throwers et al.
js
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: anti-bi's
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:30:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Dec14.183034.13978
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Followup-To: soc.bi
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

In article <1992Dec13.200933.25655@koko.csustan.edu> 
 bjm@ceti.csustan.edu (Barb Moose) writes:
>I just read the post regarding the terrible reaction to a bi button.
>I have found personally that I get it from both straights and les/gays.
>I initially thought that I would be supported from lesbians and gays, but
>NOOOOOOOOOO....   so, what is the reason?  I am confused.  I feel now
>like I really don't fit in, and have to re-closet from everyone.

Well, I wouldn't be too discouraged. I have found many bi-friendly folk
among both les/gays and les/gay-supportive hets.

One generic explaination for negative reactions from both "sides" is that
bisexuals blur boundaries which other people have an investment in
preserving (for various reasons, some better than others).

Or to use more political jargon:

The social polarization created by heterosexism creates an incentive
for people to line up on one "side" or the other, whether in conservative
reaction or in self-defense.  This tends to obscure the continuous
range of sexual orientation, and thus the reality and validity of
bisexual identity and bisexuality.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 03:38:15 GMT
Organization: QueerNet

In article <BzGwLA.Gs1@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott) writes:
>        "The young of the homo sapien, as with other mammals, are
>         fed from the breast."

Ten-yard penalty for unnecessary use of the passive voice.
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG              {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: More de-muffining
Followup-To: soc.bi
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 05:00:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.190716.9117@icd.teradyne.com> 
 bryant@icd.teradyne.com writes:
>
>I only managed to get myself on this net two days ago, so I haven't 
>kept my muffin for long.  Then again, who needs muffinhood.  I prefer 
>to have social intercourse on multiple networks at the same time, if possible.

Welcome, welcome....

>If was great to see Kay's electrons out on the ether.  I haven't seen 
>the lad since the bi conference in Coventry, lo these many moons ago.  
>Much too long!

So what's Kay like in the flesh...

 ;) ;) 

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Vikki's Problems With Kerry&Me
Date: 15 Dec 92 11:30:24
Organization: savage hackers
NNTP-Posting-Host: death.corp.sun.com
In-reply-to: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu's message of 15 Dec 1992 12:27:09 GMT


In article <1gkiutINN9hs@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
> You represent a breed of feminists I find repugnant.  A breed of feminists
> who are prudish, who are puritans, who believe absolutely that their choices
> are right.  

  And you represent (actually, are the epitome of, I'd say) the breed of
net denizens that I absolutely find disgusting.  You're hypocritical,
judgemental, ignorant, overbearing, and self rightous, to name a few
things, but perhaps the most awful thing of all is that you're a
prolific poster/writer.  You're the only person I've ever put in a kill
file in a long, long time of being on the net (congratulations!), and
perhaps will be the only one.  The only time I ever see anything that
you write is when someone replies to it, hence this reply to this gem of
yours, which I looked up after seeing iseult's response (thanks, iw!)

  Not much bi content here, but after seeing the latest flock of nasty
and condescending posts from you, I thought I'd waste some space myself.

 -- d
From: mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Attack of the Seperatists
Date: 15 Dec 1992 23:22:12 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth) writes:
>The politics of oppression is
>not to segregate but to unify those who are oppressed and those who
>support them.  Does it really matter if we're black, white, green,
>straight, gay, bi, Jewish, Christian, Wiccan, if we're trying to fight
>oppression, whether it be bi oppression, black oppression, gay oppression
>or female oppression?

Yes, it does matter, but it's not the only thing that matters.  It's too
simplistic to say that people fighting a perceived enemy become unified.
On one level they do, but on the next the myriad (and sometimes stark)
differences persist.  Any coalition must recognise this layering; to
pretend homogeneity drops from the heavens just because of The Cause is
to be blind to some important dynamics.

I'm not sure you'd even disagree with that; certainly, it's clear that a
Rainbow Coalition, for instance, is not a grey uniformity.  To be a
little more specific, though, in the kind of gender-related issues that
started this, it continues to be significant (not to say vital) what
gender a person is when they put their hand to, say, feminist
counselling.  A male counsellor and a female counsellor can say the same
words, but it is foolish to assume that they wil be understood in the
same way by a client: that gender dichotomy is one of the deepest-rooted
of all our attitudes.

There are femenist women, and feminist men.  Even if one of each type
tends to agree on a spectrum of issues, they are not the same.  They may
present a united front politically, but as individuals they are still
female and male, and will be preceived as such (barring deliberate
concealment of the facts).  Their race and their sexuality (if known)
can also be factors.  The client *will* filter what is said through hir
accumulated preconceptions of these stereotypes no matter how liberated
sie is, or how well you demonstrate your credentials to speak for a
group you're not in.

I'm not saying, as Vicki might, that a male counsellor is worse than
useless; I won't jump to that conclusion.  But consider helping the
homeless; if you never have been homeless, your perceptions and
instincts will be different, and your impact when speaking will be
different, to someone who was or is living rough.  You can work for the
same goals, you could even be *more* helpful than a specific experienced
individual in some situations.  Still, the fact remains that you are
quantitavely and qualitatively distinct from the one who has experienced
the oppresion.

A fine point, but I thought it was important.

hugs
Mike
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- g+ k+ s m- e? |    "Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and      |  Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion          |                 - Bruce Cockburn
               --The end of confusion is the beginning of death--
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Subject: Re: Human Rights Legislation in Canada
Originator: bbooth@bcrks6
Reply-To: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Organization: BNR, Ottawa, ON, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:59:13 GMT


I wrote earlier today:
> Nigel M Burnett wrote:
> > There was a brief announcement on the CBC news a moment ago.  Legislation
> > is to be introduced to the House of Commons (lower house) to ammend the
> > Human Rights Bill to make discrimination on the basis of sexual
> > orientation illegal.  I believe that Canada may be the first to do this
> > at a national level.
> 
> Yeah, I heard that this morning too... but on CTV's Canada Am.  Basically,
> the Bill would be amended to make same-sex marriages legal.  

I thought I better follow this up, because I was WRONG.  We'll worry about
my punishment later... the Bill would make the following changes to the
Canadian Human Rights Act:
	o prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation
	o define marital status as referring only to opposite-sex couples
	o various other human rights things

The good news is that a human rights tribunal has found the definition of
marital status to be unconstitutional.  "Max Yalden, head of the human
rights commission, said he doesn't believe the marriage definition is
necessary and said he doubts that the amendments will be passed before the
next election."

If you wish to do some letter writing, I would recommend either writing to
Kim Campbell (Justice Minister and proposor of the amendments) or Svend
Robinson (NDP Member of Parliament and "the only declared gay in the
Commons") at the following address:

Parliament Hill
Ottawa, Ont.
K1A 0A6 Canada


Hope that clearer,

    __o     Brad Booth              | "If somebody feels really good
  _`\<,_    Bell-Northern Research  |  about who they are, they don't
 (*)/ (*)   Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |  feel threatened by what other
----------  bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca  |  people are." - Dr. M. Rubenstein
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: yal@cltr.uq.oz.au (Yvette Lian)
Subject: Re: Maybe CO-2 isn't so evil after all.
Organization: Centre for Language Teaching and Research, Uni of Queensland, AUSTRALIA.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 05:58:53 GMT

In article <Byytxx.26n@news.udel.edu> eowyn@brahms.udel.edu (Zoe Antonia Velonis) writes:
>mostly; and they refused to print it.  The editor (I spoke with him 
>personally and am still recovering) said something to the effect of "it
>wasn't inflammatory enough" (translates to: it was so damn good I couldn't
>pick a hole in it).  

So post it HERE, Zoe... we want to read it!  Well.. *I* do...

yal

--
Yvette Lian
yal@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au 
FIDO: 3:640/352 
IRC nick: Maxine2
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:29:14 GMT

In article <BzF241.Aww@cck.coventry.ac.uk>
 idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.024639.2709@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>
 dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells) writes:
>
>>BTW, Kay, I have been cut-off from the net for a few days, and I can
>>tell that I have missed quite a bit here.  Are you still thinking about
>>coming to Texas?  (hopeful look, tail wagging)
>
>Tail wagging?  Well, that makes a visit a must :)

Yay!  *happy noises*

>>Or at least hitting the Northeast metime around the week of the 5th
>>(when I am on vacation, and free to jet-set around the world)?
>
>5th of what?  It probably won't be for a month or two; organising
>the trip is going to take a little while (fund wheedling, flight
>bookings, and all that jazz...)

Oh.  I meant 5th of January.  For some reason I was under the impression
that you were going to be here pretty soon.  Oh well.  I have vacation
later in the year too.  ;)

>You could always jet to the UK...

Hey, I'm working on it . . . :)  I'm hoping to make it in February,
although that one looks less and less likely as time goes on.

>    Kay

Darren
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons)
Subject: Re: More total blatant fluff
Organization: Department of Atomic Text Units
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:59:13 GMT

In article <BzDEur.KEv@news.udel.edu> seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore) writes:
|In article <1992Dec15.215555.10995@vpnet.chi.il.us> orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons) writes:
|
|Yeay, he's back!!
|Welcome back.

  Thank you ;-)

|>
|>                ____
|>  david parsons \bi/ "That's *MR* Vanilla to you"
|>                 \/
|O you of the many sigs, Come and amuse me again.

  Oh, it would be much more amusing if people visited Chicago. 
After spending, oh, about two months in the UK over the last year,
my Corporate Masters would probably have a fit if I told them of
any long-duration trips away from the Sybase coding pits within the
next few months (though it will be a matter of some interest when I
tell them about my next planned trip to the UK for the next soc.bi
party, even if that's only gonna be for a(nother) long weekend...)

                ____
  david parsons \bi/ "Though, come to think of it, there are things to
                 \/   be said for Australia and/or South Africa"
From: cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
Subject: Re: Pins
Organization: Rice University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:17:17 GMT

In article <1g0r3bINNdiq@cuda.add.itg.ti.com> winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js) writes:
>In article <Byt77z.1nC@ibmpcug.co.uk>, gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>|> feel they have to keep their heads down to keep their jobs, if they
>|> work at various Texas universities?

>Well, I don't *quite* buy that now.  Although it may be the TRUTH.  Cities
>like Austin, Dallas, Houston, Ft. Worth, El Paso, San Antonio have pretty 
>healthy "queer" (God, I hate that term!) populations.  But, in the sticks,

Well, it just depends on the university, just like it depends on the
city.  I doubt it's easy to be out at, say, Texas A&M.  I'm not out,
or rather I'm not sure I have anything to be out about, so I don't
have the personal experience, but I think it is at least easiER here
than some places.  Though alas, a gay friend has said he's had more
harassment the last sememster than in the rest of his years here
combined.  :(

But anyway, yes there are people in Texas reading this.  Yes I know
this thread's a bit old, but I just started reading tonight, and read
all 700-some articles over a few hours.  And yes this is my first
post here.  ;)

	Cathy
-- 
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
Why you should recycle bytes:  "Believe it or not, most deleted bytes currently
find their way straight into the Internet refuse stream, often to turn up in
postings to Usenet, or worse, OSI standards documents!"  -- Peter Deutsch
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: eowyn@brahms.udel.edu (Zoe Antonia Velonis)
Subject: Re: Pins
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:54:54 GMT

In article <26878@sybase.sybase.com> black@lester.sybase.com (Chris Black) writes:
>rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>> I'm currently pretty desparately looking for bipride pins (I will
>> _NOT_ wear a pink triangle.  Uh-uh.)
>
>I have a pretty cool bi symbol pin I bought at A Different Light in SF.
>Pink and blue triangles overlapping to make a lavender triangle,
>enamelled (sp?), atractive, tasteful.
>
>-- Chris
>black@sybase.com

Whew, the sender is finally letting me post....know how frustrating it is
to read the net and not be able to post after you've demuffined?

Pins....I came up with a logo in one of my classes last week which I kind
of like.  Unfortunately, it's hard to do graphically w/ keyboard, so
get out your paper and pencil and draw as I describe if you want a true
visual representation:
Four circles arranged in a diamond, N and S circles overlapping in the
middle, E and W circles overlapping with each other in the middle, and with
1/4 of the N and S circles.  Out of the N and E circles, arrows (mars signs)
out of S and W circles, crosses (venus signs)
This way, each "woman" overlaps with another "woman" and a "man", and
each "man" overlaps with another "man" and a "woman"

I'll pick up a few other threads here since I only have time to do one post.

I didn't mean a serious apology about the YAF business---it was supposed to
be a subtle way of announcing that having got this beast in motion, it 
had progressed over my head and that although you others can feel free to
debate YAF and Libertarianism to your heart's content, it's over my head now.
Had enough of politics lately, in real life, and I come to the net to get 
away....not a censure on any of you, just my own personal feelings.

Also, I'd meant to read all 500 odd articles so that I would be all caught
up.  Whoops.  Guess not.  And I'm going home (home...where my thought's
escaping....home....)
So Merry Christmas
Happy Kwaanza
Happy Hannukah
Merry Winter Solstice
Merry Summer Solstice (for those of you in the So. hemisphere)
THINK SNOW!!!!!!!!!
Happy New Year!

and a whole round of *hugs* and *snuggles* and *squeezes* to everyone out
there!

Zoe