HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Original_To:  JNET%"history@rutvm1"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:39:00 PDT
From:         ANTHRO@TRIUMFRG.BITNET
Subject:      request for information geminal to JFK

Hello,

My humble apologies if this has already been discussed 'ad nausium'.

I was wondering: in trying to determine if the assasination of JFK was
indeed a conspiracy, then, given the risks incumbent with assasination
of such a high profile character, and given the fact that the United States
is a republic whose citizens can vote out a President who has implemented
an unpopular policy (the voter's decision at the ballot being infuenced
by Madison Avenue techniques paid for by the disenchanted special interest
group), such that, if a group does not like the policies of a president,
then all they have to do is wait for the next election, or failing that,
the election after (at which time the two term limit of the President will
have expired) whereupon an unpopular policy can be reversed, then does it
not follow that an assasination would only be thought necessary by the group
if the President were about to implement a policy which *could NOT be revered*
by a future Executive, and that an analysis of pending policy decisions of
JFK at the time of his assasination would: 1) show whether or not any
assasination were justified (form the point of view of the affected
group), and if no irreversible decision were to be found in the works,
then it would weaken the position of the conspiracy theorists, and 2) if
an irreversible policy *were* found to be pending, would that not point
to the offending group?

Therefore, have any historians ever analysed pending policy decisions of
JFK before his assasination?

Dave
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:06:00 CST
From:         GPGPO@BASIN.CRC.UNO.EDU
Subject:      Re: US military intervention

YOoni,
	A recent second edition of *Right v. Might: International Law
and the Use of Force* published by the Council on Foreign Relations,
1991, should prove helpful in your study.  In particular, the chapters by Louis
 Henkin, "The Use of Force: Law and US Policy" and David J. Scheffer, "Use of
Force After the Cold War: Panama, Iraq, and the New World Order," should
be interesting to you.

Greg Granger
University of New Orleans
gpgpo@uno.edu
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Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 14:48:48 EDT
From:         "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rantings of the 'new' religious right

Lenny,

I have had this out before with a lesbian-feminist atheist with aspirations
to the Congregationalist Ministry on the grounds of Union Theological
Seminary, NYC. Since, in my opinion, I soundly thrashed her, I am at liberty
to change my mind:

You thank *her* anyway. She who does not exist is female.

Daniel A. Foss
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:49:00 EDT
From:         PBRUSH@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention

>On Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:19:00 EST YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET said:

>> also looking for historical examples perhaps in the 19th century when
>> U.S Military intervention in the affairs of other countries was rare.

>Perhaps not _too_ rare. You might begin with the American
>invasion of Lower Canada in 1776, and follow that with the
>invasion of Upper Canada in 1812. If the Cherokee Nation
>can be counted as an "other country," they would serve as
>a good historical example. Turn to Texas, and check out
>the filibustering expeditions there. Don't neglect the
>Ostend Manifesto (one of my all-time favorites) and the
>invasion of Nicaragua.
>Let's see, I'm running out of time, and have only made it
>to the 1850s.

The US-Mexico War comes to mind.


Peter Brush
PBRUSH@SNYESCVA
Empire State College
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:10:51 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: the value of money
              26 Aug 1992 09:52:05 +1000 from <med@LINGUA.CLTR.U Q.OZ.AU>

On Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:52:05 +1000 Marion Diamond said:
>Bob,
>The answer is that you can't!  Money changes value at different rates,
>depending on what particular item you are dealing with.  There are various
>indices of prices, some going back hundreds of years, but sometimes these
>are more dangerous than useful.  Thus for instance, if you compare, say,
>the cost of (1) a domestic servant; (2) a railway ticket; (3) a family meal;
>(4) an acre of land; (5) a postage stamp ; over 100 years, you would find
>that 1 & 4 had risen, 2 and 5 had fallen, and 3 was so different in content
>as not to be comparable at all.  (This is for my part of the world - it
>may be quite different where you are).  Or compare what the salary of a
>middling academic would buy! - plenty of domestic servants in 1892, but
>plenty of cheap travel now.
>
Ummm. . . are you really sure that 5) has fallen?  Generally, I mean.  I
don't believe it has in the US, that is, I don't believe a 2 stamp in 1892
was more expensive than a 29 stamp today.

The measure I always try to use, admittedly amateurish & strictly for peace of
mind, is to compare the cost of bread.  It's a staple, readily available,
necessary, and a lot of people must have the same interest, because it always
seems to show up in price indices, even when the author is noting prices in
a general, narative way.

Of course, I *try* to compare prices for each item that interests me, rather
than make/think a general statement, which wouldn't do me much good even if
I was competent to do so.

There is a history section in this building.  Perhaps I can put the question
to them to see how they compare commodity prices from early in the century to
today.

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Ken Koester, Systems Programmer  | BITNET:  MAINT2@ERS               |
| US Department of Agriculture     | Tel:     (202) 219-0577           |
| Economic Research Service        | Fax:     (202) 219-1292           |
| Data Services Center             |          (ATTN: Rm 110)           |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:01:54 +1000
From:         Marion Diamond <med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject:      accommodation in cambridge

A while back, I asked for information about finding accommodation
in Cambridge (the English one).  Several people contacted me with
assistance, and for anybody else who may be interested, I forward
the address of the Society of Visiting Scholars, 12 Mill Lane,
Cambridge CB2 1RX, which will, apparently, help to find a place
to stay.
Thanks everybody,
Marion Diamond
med@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:27:30 -0400
From:         32WHEELER@CUA.BITNET
Subject: Re: the value of money

LENNY,
        Doesn't the cost/value of a night's loging rather depend on _where_
one stays?

Carol
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:44:00 PST
From:         FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU
Subject:      Re: the zimmerman telegram
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

The Brits did intercept the Z telegram as it crossed the Atlantic
on an American! cable.  In order not to let the Germans know they got
it (as they would when the Brits released it to the Americans to charge
their batteries), they got a copy of the telegram as it was forwarded
from Washington to Mexico City.  That way the suble differences in the
two versions would not give away the Brit cryptographic ability.

The way they got the Mexican version is a wonderful story itself.  If
anyone wants a summary, and hasn't time for the book, I'll summarize
later.
Steve
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:33:46 CDT
From:         "Renato Barahona" <U17801@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention
              2 Sep 1992 13:08:34 PDT from <fishkin@PARC.XEROX.COM>

On Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:08:34 PDT Ken Fishkin said:
>Re justifications for US intervention.
>The book "The Anti-Imperialists" does a good job of
>discussing the debate for/against US intervention in
>the 1890's, when it first happened "big time" (Phillipines,
>Cuba, etc.).

I lost the original message with the query, and I'll leave to others to reply t
o the question whether the US govt is ever justified to intervening in other co
untries' internal affairs, especially thru military means.  (In my view not, bu
t I don't wish to engage in long and possibly tiresome polemics.) I would, howe
ver, recommend my colleague Bruce Calder's book __The Impact of Intervention: T
he Dominican Republic during the U.S. Occupation of 1916-1924__ (U. of Texas),
which has some extremely interesting information from around the turn of the ce
ntury.

Renato Barahona
University of Illinois at Chicago
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:41:50 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      folly?
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

>President Garfield: (words to the effect, this is a not a precise
>quote of Russell)
>
>	`Democracy couldn't exist without the
>	wisdom - and the folly - of the people'.
>
>Did Garfield really ever say this and if so, when - and what was
>the context?

i looked in bartlett's 15th and _american quotations_ under the terms
folly and democracy, and uncer author garfield, and found nothing
resembling the above quote.

i did come up with this gem: "In a democracy such as ours military
policy is dependent on public opinion" -- George C. Marshall.



--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 08:53:24 -0500
From:         "Jeff Lussman, ext. 128" <jjluss@MUSCTN.MONSANTO.COM>
Comments: To: history%umrvmb.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu@tin.monsanto.com

//   JOB  Echo=No
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD   *
s Mabry in HISTORY
INDEX
/*
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 11:35:59 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      U.S Military Intervention
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

YONI@BROWNCOG writes:
>Greetings historians,
>I am currently researching whether U.S military intervention in the internal
>affairs of other countries is justified.

it seems to me that the only "justification" for anything, be it
military intervention or taking daily vitamins, is between a person
and his or her maker.  what you will find in journals are (_ex post
facto_?) rationalizations.

you might be better off looking at the ideologies behind proported
justifications.  the "why?" question is easily answered: "because its
right; it enhances the power & prestige of the US, which is good."
to me, the more interesting question is, "what do these people believe
in that would make them think that such intervention is good."

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 09:53:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention

> Lest we forget.
>
> Kali Tal
> _Viet Nam Generation_

Well done.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 15:54:51 EDT
From:         Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A review ...
              23 Aug 1992 09:59:04 -0500 from <CDELL@UMKCVAX1.BITNET>

Witnesses claim that the bodies were burned.  Very thoroughly.
Richard Halliburton interviewed one of the participants, though R.H.
may not be the most respected of sources.

It must also be taken into account that the Russians are not as "mature"
(for lack of a better word to describe it) in the handling of publicity and
sensationalism as we are.  The seem to like, and readily believe, wild
claims.  I have also seen this in Czechs and other eastern groups.

Lenny
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Organization: Univ. of Louisville
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:58:05 EDT
From:         Jim Cocks <JACOCK01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Futzing
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1@RUTVM1.RUTGERS.EDU

>......................... SBT concludes that 2 percent of America's
>gross domestic product -- $97 billion -- is being "futzed away" by workers
>who spend too much time tinkering with their PCs. The top futzes:

 Boy, wait till Dan Quayle hears this!  He will probably completely
 forget about Murphy Brown.  Now at $97 billyun I'd say that reflects
 a question of values :-)

  Jim Cocks
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Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 15:27:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Rantings of the 'new' religious right

On Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:15:22 CDT U17801@UICVM.BITNET said:

> More or less coherent?                                                k the du
m

More or less coherent than what?
Is it not possible to be incoherent while uttering
profound truths?

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 07:43:46 CDT
From:         Don Mabry <djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: the value of money
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

	Pasker asks a very good question when he asks how to determine the
value of the dollar over time.
	One possible approach is to find a standard unit of measure. For
example, the daily wage of a worker can often be discovered for different
time periods and for different societies. One can try to get at the
question of how long one had to work in order to buy a certain [standard]
article. Through extrapolation one can then approximate value.
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 21:44:52 CDT
From:         Peter Davis <AXTHEPD@UICVMC.BITNET>
Subject:      Colonial Fairs

 Gee, I hate to interrupt all this fascinating chat about bombs, boose and futz
 for my own selfish reasons, but I have a bibliographical problem that has me
 absolutely stymied.  Despite months of looking, I can't find a single descent
 article, monograph or book that discusses the semi-annual commodity fairs in
 colonial America.  Sure, they're mentioned in passing by Bridenbaugh and others
 in general texts.  But I can't find anyone who has done any sizable research on
 the compositon, function or even schedule of these things.  Yet most colonies
 had chartered fairs as early as the 1690s, according to documents I found last
 summer at the PRO.  I'd be very interested to know if anyone has come across
 any sort of information regarding colonial fairs.  And Washington's visits to
 Fredericksburg and the Anapolis races don't count.(I've got that already.)
 I'll bet this'll stump most of you.

 Thanks,
 PA Davis
 U of Illinoisin the Cornfields
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:48:01 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: PS to the previous post about JFK

On Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:01:46 EDT Lenny said:
>I think that the Zapruder film was 8mm.  Very few amateurs ever used
>16mm for home movies.  The cost was about 3X that of 8mm.  There were almost
>no basic 16mm cameras avaiable then.
>
In which case, halving the frame size simply doubles my mystification with the
original post (-:
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:53:52 EDT
From:         "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Private filibustering

The distinction between private filibustering and official policy, under
conditions of "plausible deniability," cui bono, etc, which prevail, is
menaingful if and only if the state which stood to benefit by the adventure,
the slavocrats with respect to Nicaragua in 1855, the US with Hawaii, 1893,
not merely disavows it if it succeeds but actively intervenes to restore the
status quo ante with indemnification of the victim state.

Should the adventure fail, e.g., Boer Republics, 1895 (Jameson's Raid), the
state which stood to gain should shoot the perpetrators for treason and
indemnify the victim state. This should also apply to gusano raids on Cuba
or Ramboesque adventures in Laos. Meaning, yes, Ross Perot should be shot for
treason.

Only such a policy makes the distinction between private filibustering and
state action meaningful.

Daniel A. Foss
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Return-Path: <pietrzyk@a1.quaker.upenn.edu>
Msg-Class: ALL-IN-1 V2.3 BL8-4 Rev. AAC 20-Dec-1988
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:08:01 -0400
From:         "Gail M. Pietrzyk" <pietrzyk@A1.QUAKER.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Drinking habits

The simple, mundane and quotidian fact is, that professional associations
must pay for liablility insurance, if they serve alcoholic beverages at
their functions.  Liability insurance has gone through the roof, and
wet hospitality suites at conventions are or will be disappearing.  The
Mid-Atlantic Archivists Convention (MARAC) had to address this issue at
their semi-annual meeting last May, and even providing a cash bar in the
hospitality suite would raise the insurance costs substantially.


G. Pietrzyk
University of Pennsylvania Archives
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:31:25 EDT
From:         Tom Powers <TPOWERS@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: the value of money
              26 Aug 1992 21:16:00 CST from <JCFITZHARRIS@STTHOMAS.EDU>

     The suggestion that wheat be used as a standard unit of value
has merit, but only for those cultures which used wheat extensively.
Parts of Asia and Africa would be excluded from the comparison, though,
 and so might other parts of Western Civilization at various times
and places. In some areas, wheat was the staple of most people's diet.
In others, though, wheat was a luxury, and the majority depended on
rye or oats or corn or other "coarse" grains, or on flours and meals
made from a combination of these. I'm afraid that here too, the
problem of variability remains unsolved.

Tom Powers   TPOWERS@UNIVSCVM.BITNET   366@8305 (WWIV)
TPOWERS@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU (Internet)     58@8230 (VBBS)
TPOWERS@USCSUMTER.USCSU.SCAROLINA.EDU
The University of South Carolina at Sumter
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:30:28 EST
From:         "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: the value of money
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu

Lenny writes:
|->
|-> How about the price of one night's lodging as a standard for the value
|-> of money?
|->

	How about the price of a good steak?? I remember going into
Schroeder's on Front Street in San Francisco a couple of years ago. On
the wall was a menu from ca. 1900. The best steak in the house was
$0.25. DAMN!!! Where's your time machine when you really need it?
	All seriousness aside: I've always liked to look at basic
items such as food or shelter to determine a cost of living scale for
the value of money. I agree that this is not perfect, but at least it
gives you an idea of what you could buy with an income of 50 pounds in
1668.
							--Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel  	    kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive	                      (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA		FAX:  (812) 334-8121
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 09:59:04 -0500
From:         "VALENTINE M. SMITH" <CDELL@UMKCVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      A review ...
Comments: To: val-l@ucf1vm.BITNET, jwales@iubvm.BITNET, olsenj@stolaf.edu,
              shlyakhter@huhepl.harvard.edu, kousen@rayleigh.res.utc.com,
              russia@indycms.iupui.edu, sovhist@uscvm.BITNET

I just finished Eduard Radzinsky's new book, _The Last Tsar, The Life
and Death of Nicholas II, which just came out a few weeks ago.
Radzinsky is reportedly the "most staged playwright in Russia after
Chekov" and has, according to the dust jacket, been working on a
biography of Nicholas II for twenty-five years. He is also a "trained
historian."

I guess I found the book intriguing, but do not know what to make of
his conclusion, which would appear to claim that Alexis and Anastasia
DID escape the executioners, though they both were wounded. He bases
this on two things. One, in the recent discovery of remains, (1991,
"rediscovering" remains found in 1979) only nine bodies were found of
the 11 reportedly shot and/or bayonetted in July, 1918. Reportedly,
the two missing are the youngest two. (Also he offers the possibility
that Demidova, the maid, might have been "replaced" by someone else).

He goes on to give credence to the tale of "Anastasia" who appeared
in Berlin in the 1920s, and then a long account of a mental patient
called Semyon Grigorievich Filippov or Filipp Grigorievich Semyonov,
who came to the attention of the authorities in 1949, a man who
reportedly looked like Nicholas II, who had scars like Alexis had,
who knew an enormous amount about the royal family, who was sent back
into the camps, and presumably perished when sent back sometime after
October, 1949 (Radzinsky never details this Semyenov's fate).

All in all, a fairly quickly read book, despite its length, but with
this incredible conclusion that is hard to know what to make of,
especially as he cites one executioner, Grigory Nikulin, "They all
perished" (stated in 1964).  I do not know when this book was
published in Russia (a tiny omission on the part of the American
publishers), but one has to think that the conclusions Radzinsky
reached would created more than a stir when the book came out there.
I will interested to hear other people's thoughts on this book, and
the conclusions it offers. VMS
Radzinsky reached must
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:56:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject: Re: the value of money

On Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:40:45 BST Christopher Currie
<c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK> said:

> I make it 16 bob, Denis. Stll whopping :-)

You're correct. I'm not good at mental arithmetic.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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