From: lewc@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Lew Chua-Eoan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.filipino
Subject: Re: Filipino-Chinese Kidnappings
Date: 8 Nov 92 06:25:39 GMT
Followup-To: Francis@mpl.ucsd.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: Austin, Tx.


---- part 2 of a four part epic -------------------

>From: francis@mpl.ucsd.edu (Francis C Felizardo)
>>>He knows his subordinates and when rumour spreads
>>>in the lower echelons of his commission (or previous commission) it doesn't
>>>escape his ears. 
>>
>>Do you know this for a fact?
>>Yes. (Indisputable!)

>Then why was he unable to prevent all these coup attempts? If nothing 
>escapes his ears, why did these coup attempts go as far as destroying the 
>Department of National Defense Headquarters in Camp Aguinaldo? Why did he 
>allow the rebels to bomb Malacanang Palace? Why did he allow the rebels to 
>commandeer air force planes during the early hours of the last 
>coup? Why did he allow the rebels to control Camp Aguinaldo, Villamor and 
>Mactan AF bases? Why did he not know that the rebels were going to retreat 
>into Makati and occupy the hotels and commercial buildings? Why did he let 
>his emissary to Col./Gov. Aguinaldo get ambushed and why did 
>let him escape? Why did he allow so many of the people who are loyal 
>to him die? Why did he allow the rebels to advance so much that the US felt 
>they had to intervene to save the Philippine government?
>You claim that you have indisputable proof that nothing escapes Ramos but 
>there is so much evidence to the contrary. Like I said, just because you 
>say so doesn't make it so.

IF WE WERE ARGUEING THE POINT THAT RAMOS WAS "THE ALMIGHTY" then you
are right.  But what I was implying was that the army and the constabulary
are exclusive fraternaties where the commanders in charge form a small
web of informants whoes job it is to relay information to the commander
in chief. Ramos may have known some of the possible plotters well before
the coups began. I have it from good source that this web exists and
was effective.  However, this dosen't mean he is "omnipotent and all
knowing".  I believe he knew of plots and plotters from his confidants.

   - stuff deleted -

>>Yes, but he was able to stop all seven (or eight..) of the coup attempts.
>>That is a pretty good score - "a perfect score". He may not of had absolute
                                                  -- --- --- -- --- --------
>>control of the AFP and INP then, but the resources under his command were
 -------
>>enough to quell any uprising. It could also be argued that he has
>>more of his men in place now then ever before. 
>>Now that you mentioned it, I believe he did stop a couple of these coups
>>before they even got violent.

>Fine. You do agree with me that although most of the AFP and INP are loyal to 
>the government, perhaps even Ramos in particular, he does not have absolute 
>control. Then you must also agree with me that the people he does not 
>control can work to try to undermine the Ramos administration.

-- deleted agreement that the point was ineffectiveness ---

>Great! Then all that's left for you to do is to back up your claims with 
>evidence. How does the Ramos government crime program compare with that 
>previous to his taking over? Show us the stats that led you to that 
>conclusion.

I believe their has been a increase since the Ramos administration took
the reigns of government.  This is evident and corroborated with what
the world media has said - "Its a has become a relative cottage industry".
From early Aug. to mid Sept. reported kidnappings were in the twenties,
and previous to this I believe reported kidnappings were much less then
this figure.  You must also take into consideration, the fact that
many Filipino-Chinese families do not go and report crimes committed
against them. Therefore these stats do not reflect the true impact of
these heinous crimes against the Filipino-Chinese populace. At one
point in september word had it that the kidnappings at escalated to
three a day - the word came from reputable sources within the Fil-
Chinese community.

>>   - stuff deleted on politics -
>>Yes, the only thing that stands between them is politics - "personality"
>>politics RP style, as you pointed out.
>>I was using the fact to suggest that politicians are politicians, and
>>Estrada being in the opposition does not make him more lovable in
>>the eyes of Ramos.  We have a coalition government - "a coalition
>>government, and hardly a confluence of personal interests".
>>I don't really understand your point here. When you wrote:
>>>It is the belief of many, that the presidency holds the key to this
>>>present series of violence, with the oppositional vice-presidency and
>>>the fate of the Filipino-Chinese community acting as unwilling pawns in 
>>>a vicious drama. 
>you gave me and many readers I talked to the idea that there was a struggle 
>between Ramos and Estrada and that they were using the CF community as 
>pawns. Ramos was ignoring the CF kidnapping problem while Estrada was 
>doing something about it. I was rebutting that view. I was saying that 
>it is in the interest of both Ramos and Estrada that the kidnapping and 
>crime problem be resolved satisfactorily because both of their butts are 
>on the line on this issue. Contrary to the statement above, Ramos and 
>Estrada are both on the same side on this issue.

I was implying that both Estrada and the Fil-Chinese community were
being manipulated by the Ramos interests. Not a Ramos Estrada struggle
per se. 

Actually you pointed out an obvious fact later in this
arguement which nullifies the Estrada scapegoat hypothesis.
Ramos has nothing to gain by debasing Estrada's popularity.
The Philippine constitution only guarantees one 6-yr term of office (unless
it is amended) and therefore I am in error on that point.

--- deleted arguement of Ramos and Estrada policy solidarity ----


>There was ONE kidnapping near his house in San Juan. One case does not 
>constitute escalation. In addition, you keep making cryptic references to 
>his court troubles but I have not seen you elaborate on them. Please do.

There have been numerous kidnappings around the SJ, little bagiuo area.
REPUTATIONS of institutions are at stake and many formal claims have
not been filed.

>>If you are giving Estrada credit for saving the young girl, then you should 
>>also give the Ramos administration credit because Estrada was doing the job 
>>Ramos appointed him to. Perhaps the PCC is not as ineffective as you say 
>>after all.
>
>Your right on this point. Ramos should get credit for saving the young
>lady, but on the whole, Ramos' program has been ineffective...countless
>others have been molested and a few others have died, and the crimes
>continue and have increased in frequency.  
 -------- --- ---- --------- -- ---------
> Please cite your stats and source. 

I cited my numbers and sources above.  If you want me to repost some
of the articles on the net. I'll do so. If you want me to gather
more supporting data to attest to this, I will be going home soon
and will mail you the data you require on my return. 
Francis, Its not me saying so.  Like you said, my words do not
impress you but I hope you will take to heart some of the articles posted 
by the "NY Times","Economist" and the words of numerous other local 
Philippine reporters and papers.

>You wrote:
>>Only recently has effective action taken place under the leadership 
>>of Vice-President J. Estrada.
>also
>>This doesn't take away from the fact that it was Estrada's boys..his
>>organization of people that rescued the young lady.
>also
>>" Hey! he [Estrada] was doing a 
>> good job or trying too...why did you ask him to step down?" 
>What I don't understand is that on the one hand, you are claiming Estrada 
                                                  ^^^
>is doing a good job and at the same time claiming that he is incapable
            ^^^^ ^^^
>of doing the job and that the crime program is ineffective.

I think the last [Hey] statement should be taken in the context it was
given - talking from a third persons point of view (i.e. the public).
The public statement effectively expresses the opinion that 
Estrada's trying to do his best. That's all you could ask anyone
to do. That's a good enough job.
There is no contradiction in terms if you think of it in this light.
He is trying his best, but it does not mean he is going to succeed
in eradicating the menace.
 
>It seems to me that you started out with the assumption that Ramos is 
>shafting the CF community. Then you tried to present all evidence that 
>is consistent with this assumption. Any evidence contrary to this was 
>thrown out. At the time you wrote you first post, you thought Estrada 
>was opposing Ramos and tried to paint him in the best light, i.e., that 
>his program is effective. Then when confronted with the knowledge that 
>he is managing Ramos' program, you tried to backpedal on this assessment
                                             ^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
>and minimized his accomplishment.
 ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
I have painted Estrada as trying to do the best he could do.  And that's
as good as anyone could ask.  You are suggesting that I was trying to set
Estarda as an example, to showcase some antagonism in between both
persons and policies they expaused. This is your perception.
What I was trying to validify was my assumption that Estrada was
being used as the "fall guy"- a pawn where Ramos interests were concerned.

I also have suggested the current administrations policies have not been
effective.  And there is no contradiction here.

Your accusation of backpedling is unfounded and its derivation misconstrued.

>>>>I know it's no consolation but non-Chinese Filipinos have been subjected to 
>>>>this much longer and more often than CFs have.
>>>>     ^^^^ ^^^^^^ 
>>Not true.  I believe hostilities against the Filipino-Chinese started
>>shortly after they first settled with in the islands. 
>Well, the hostilities between the indios started well before the Chinese 
>and the Spaniards even came to the Philippines. When the Spaniards arrived, 
>they pitted one region against the other. The guardia sibil, the forerunners 
>of the Philippine Constabulary was used to suppress the natives.

Hold on! Are we argueing about crimes against a minority or are we
agrueing colonial abuse. Human history is filled with the later case,
and to figure who got the colonial abuse first is an unending debate.
The subject was Filipino-Chinese kidnappings. Kidnappings happen
everywhere around the world, I agree, but victimization of a minority
population is another matter entirely.

>>And if you were 
>>speaking about abductions per se, this has been going on for as long 
>>as there has been a Filipino-Chinese community
>>in the Philippines...often sporadic at times...more frequent at other 
>>times.
>Well if we're talking about abductions per se, nonCFs have been subjected 
>to this too. Once again I reiterate that I'm not saying this makes it OK, 
>I'm just saying that this is a problem that both CF and nonCF have to 
>solve. We're in this together.

I truly hope this is the case Francis.  However, I cannot get over the fact
that in a widely circulated paper, someone voiced the opinion that since
these incidents were only happening to Fil-Chinese that "why should 'we'
be so concerned" and added a statement to the effect that "they abuse us anyways?
so why should we care!" 

But I agree with you.  It is something that should be addressed by 
every Filipino.

---- deleted agreement on objectivity in analysis ----

>>Look at the Filipino-Chinese press 
>>publications (circulated within the community) previous to and after the 
>>elections. They which suggest this majority.
>Lew, the way the game is usually played, the burden of proof is on the 
>person making the assertion. If you have exit polling data that shows 
>that what you say is so, then I welcome it. But just because you say so 
>doesn't make it so.
>>>From my understanding of Philippine elections, Chinese Filipinos do not 
>>>vote as a block.
>>Then you may know very little about Filipino-Chinese politics in the
>>Philippines.
>I guess not. If you have studies that show me that it's otherwise, then I 
>would be more than happy to be educated by you. My impression on  
>how the CFs affect the electoral dynamics in the Philippines is from 
>conversations with my CF friends and from Pepe Miranda's class in 
>Poli Sci 11. Pepe Miranda is the head of the Social Weather Station, 
>arguably the premiere polling organization in the Philippines.
>If your evidence that CFs vote as a block is based solely on your own 
>personal impressions rather than studies, then I argue that your knowledge 
>is not any more valid than mine.

My "impressions" as you call them, are formed from credible sources within
the old Philippine Chinese-Chamber of commerce and others similar groups.
They are reputable and circulated Filipino-Chinese journals.

I do not know of any balloting process in recent Philippine electoral history
which requires you to state your ethnicity, so any polling studies are 
subjective at best.

Yes, I cannot provide the type of data you require since it is subjective at best.
But I can guaruntee you that the Filipino-Chinese minority has voted in
blocks in the recent past based on other viable sources. Sources which
you obviously take as non-viable.

>>>>Corazon Aquino.
>>>Ofcourse! How many times did he save her presidency? Seven or so...i lost
>>>count. Yes, Corazon Cojuanco Aquino owed him a debt of gratitude.
>>>Yes and Corazon Aquino is Chinese Filipino and so is her family and I 
>>>suspect she has a following in the CF community. Let's face it. Ramos would 
>>>never have won without her endorsement.
>>Cory Aquinos being labeled a Filipino-Chinese is hardly fitting.  Yes,
>>her great-grandfather or great-great grandfather was a entrepeneur with
>>the sername "Co" from Fujian China who found prosperity in Central Luzon
>>region but she and the current generation of Cojuangcos are about 6-12 %
>>Chinese.  
>You did not give me any argument as to why Cory's generation is any less 
>Chinese. If you yourself practice racism against your own people, how can 
          ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^
>you validly argue that racism against you is wrong?

At least you acknowledge that race is an issue in this discussion...
I was arguing the whole scheme of labeling Filipinos. You were
suggesting that she was Filipino-Chinese.  I was trying to make the
point that the label should read "Filipino". And that we all in
essence should be labeled "Filipino". Yes, she has immigrant
blood in her veins, but does that make her more Chinese or more
Filipino?  For that matter, should a person with 0.000001% Chinese blood
be labeled Filipino-Chinese. I'm sure they compose more then
2% of the population making the head count of Filipino-Chinese at
lot larger then what you suggest.
        I believe this labeling thing is wrong in the first place.
It brings about to many feelings of "sila" vs "tayo".
    Frankly, I don't understand your accusation.  If you are
referring to my difficulty in trying to culturally classify Mrs. Aquino,
then label me a "racist". I believe she and I are as Filipino as any in
the population.  She is a mixture of ethnic blood lines - mestiza, just
like the rest of us.

>>And as i said in a previous posting, one could take up the 
>>agruement that she and her present family (Danding included) are more
>>within the majority then within the minority.
>When a Chinese immigrant decides to adopt the Philippines as his country 
>and he is welcomed by the nonCF, does it make him/her any less Chinese 
>Filipino? For someone who has taken pains to argue that Filipino-Chinese 
>is the right term because that means you are Filipino first, this seems 
>to me like a major contradiction.

I don't think there is any contradiction here at all.
I think we both feel citizens of the Philippines are Filipinos.

>>  But taking this issue aside** and assuming, as you propose, that she is 
>>a prominent member of the Filipino-Chinese community does not mean that 

The issue was Aquino's cultural identity and how she/I/society would
classify herself and the notion that she was a leading proponent of 
Filipino-Chinese rights (-however she/I/society classifies herself as being)
does not mean she had a large Filipino-Chinese following.

>>she had a large following in the Filipino-Chinese community.  
>Well judging from several of my CF friends who supported Cory Aquino, I 
>do get the impression that there were many CFs who supported her. Like I 
>said, if you have polling data to the contrary, then I welcome it.

As I said polling data in Philippine elections is a subjective science.
The only evidence I can present is the publicized support of major
Fil-Chinese business organizations of opposition candidates and
the assumption of concerted voting strategies by these lobbists would
contribute to voting blocks against Ramos party, since there is some
precedence to the fact.

   - stuff deleted -

>>   What I was trying to say was that her support may have counted very
>>little in a two-sided election.  
>When did you say that? And we never had a two sided election so why is 
>this relevant?
>>   But that is not to say that it did not count in a close and
>>muti-partisan election.  So where does this lead us?  Was the Filipino
>>Chinese vote important after all?  This is what you were suggesting.
>No. In fact I was suggesting that this is not. You said Ramos was punishing 
>the CF community for not supporting him. I said I don't believe you were 
>right in saying that because 1. I don't believe CFs vote as a block 
>(rebut this with stats if you wish) and 2. There are other more identifiable 
>groups of people who surely voted against Ramos as a block but were not 
>subjected to punishment by the Ramos government.

Again, as to assertion 1: You believe Pepe Miranda, I believe
sources at the Fil-Chinese Federation and journals during the
election period and precedents set previously
by the Phil. Chinese Chamber of Com.. You want polling information
which I believe is subjective if taken at all.

As to assertion 2: (Post-election) You could argue that other identifiable
groups still have strong policital affiliations and advocates of their
rights.  The Fil-Chinese currently have none.  This makes them easier targets
to manipulate.

>>** if you assume President Aquino is a prominent member of the 
>>Filipino-Chinese community then you should accept that three
>>previous Presidents were also prominent Filipino-Chinese -
>>one being a Commonwealth President.
>I know Marcos had some Chinese ancestors by intermarriage. I am not familiar 
>with the other other two presidents. And yes, if you have Chinese roots and 
>you are Filipino, then you are CF. Actually, this also shows how well 
>Chinese immigrants have been assimilated into Philippine society. Although 
>I can't deny that our differences has led to some racism, ethnic Chinese 
>have accomplished more and achieved a greater position in society in the 
>Philippines than in most societies where they are a minority - American 
>society included.

Yes, and I know we both agree that their success' should not be
taken against them.

As to the other presidents.  I believe Quezon was mestizo, Osmena was
also mestizo, and Cory.  And possibly Marcos. (if you believe the
Karnow rumour that he is sired by a Judge Chua from Ilocos
or the stated line that he had some Chinese ancestors way in the past).

END OF PART 2
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