HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: guns vs. K9s
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:25 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

#In article <1993Jan4.130458.7348@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
##From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
##Subject: guns vs. K9s
##Date: 4 Jan 93 13:32:24 GMT
##A past experience of a relative of mine prompts me to ask for in-
##sights.
##
##Consider the following scenario:
##
##You are confronted with a very  unfriendly  and  rather  big  dog
##(growling,  foam  at  the mouth, suspected rabies) in your garden
##(so carry laws are not an issue).  What gun/ammo would  you  like
##to have with you?
##
##Would you deem a rifle necessary?  IMHO even big dogs  are  small
##enough to allow a quick killing by using a handgun.
##
##My (rather un-educated) guess is .357 Magnum 125grs SJHP in a  6"
##revolver.    Some might consider that a bit over-powered, but I'd
##rather err on the safe side.
##
I have a fair amount of experience shooting dogs (wild dogs, coyotes)
with handguns, and .357 is _not_ over-powered, it's barely adequate,
and then only with the lightest, most come-apart bullet you can find.

A heart shot with the hottest .45 ACP or 9x19 is absorbed with 
apparent disdain for a surprisingly long time.  That is, put a 9mm
in a coyote's heart and he will run a _long_ way.  If he's running
_toward_ you, you're, well, dog meat.

A screamer .357 is _pretty_ good, but an 1800 FPS 180-grain .44 Mag
hollow-point stopped best for me.

Now, since a _really_ heavy coyote will go 40 pounds, how effective
do feel your caliber is against a 200-pound junkie?


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: bilgeoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Patricia Henry)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: summary: holsters for women
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:09:14 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Dear Net:

Thanks for all the replies about holsters for women.  I was amazed by the
number and quality of the replies.

Since I wrote the net, I have talked to a combat handgun instructor (at
Insights here in Issaquah) as well as having much input from you all, including
an editor for Women and Guns.  My decision for now is a simple inside the
belt holster which I wear in front.  My husband has a Sparks Executive
Companion worn behind the hip.

As many in the net pointed out, the best carry for a man and woman vary a
lot!  Basically it is hard for a woman to wear on the hips, but I have an
advantage in being able to conceal a weapon in the waistband under my
breasts.


Here's a brief summary of the responses:

Possible modes of Carry
-----------------------
Shoulder holster horizontal, shoulder holster vertical, thigh, belt inside,
belt outside, midriff, purse, attache, fanny pack, specially designed clothes,
brassiere (?!)

Brands specifically mentioned
-----------------------------
PistolERA clothes
Bianchi fanny packs and elastic midriff holsters

Publications and Resources
--------------------------
Women and Guns (magazine)
Armed and Female (book)
Combat instructors
From: sutin@ra.UCSC.EDU (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: guns vs. rabbits
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:01 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC

In article <2748.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> ben.sansing@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Ben Sansing) writes:
#>In article <1993Jan4.130458.7348@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.
#>Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
#>#Consider the following scenario:
#>#
#>        absolutely amazing what they can do.  I have seen footage of rabid
#>        rabbits walking around on their hind legs like a man.  Gives me the
#>        willies big time just thinking about it.
#
#Rabbits walking on their hind legs? WEIRD...

This is known as (I think) Boxing Syndrome.  When certain parts of the
animal's brain are destroyed, the animal rears up on hind legs and waves
the fore-paws as if boxing.  I don't believe they usually walk around, but
I suppose it could happen.  Any small animal seen doing this most likely
has some form of brain damage, perhaps from rabies, and should be avoided.
Don't get confused between this and an animal stretching up to take a sniff.

Brian Sutin				sutin@lick.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travel with a firearm
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:34:35 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <78986@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6511a@prism.gatech.edu (COCHRANE,JAMES SHAPLEIGH) writes:
#
#
#    Someone posted that they believe Alabama completely prohibits handgun carry.
#Not so.  The only legal handgun carry in Alabama is concealed with a permit.  
#This permit is required for carry in a vehicle.  Words from the license:  "License to (CARRY A REVOLVER OR PISTOL CONCEALED ON THE PERSON) or (CARRY A REVOLVER
#OR PISTOL IN A VEHICLE) is hereby granted.... "  The license if valid for 1 
#year, and costs $10 (up from $5 last year).  The license is valid for the entire

I believe the individual who terminated felonious hostilities at the restaurant in
Anniston, AL (Dec 19, 1991) had a carry permit which enabled a slightly different
outcome from the incident in Kileen Texas where carry permits are not available.
From: eesnyder@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Eric E. Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Makarov (sp?) pistols?
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:10:07 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:



#Does anyone have experience with this gun?

#I was at a gun show this weekend, and looked at a Makarov (sp?) 380 double 
#action pistol which appeared to be a clone of the Walther PPK.  It was 2-tone, 
#with a blued slide and a shiny (stainless?) frame.  The decocker lever on 
#the slide was very stiff.  The price was only about $150.00.  At this price, 
#I almost bought it.  But I thought I'd ask for any net wisdom on this gun.  
#The gun rags seem to review these eastern block guns favorably (at least being 
#good for the price).  I think there is a similar Hungarian PPK clone also
#available for under $200.

#Anyone have any experience with these?

I have a Hungarian PPK clone (made by FEG, Butapest) called the R61 which
I recently bought from SOG International.  It also has an alloy frame and 
blued steel slide, as well as a stiff decocking lever and a rather heavy
double action trigger pull.  The single-action pull is very nice.  I have 
put about 200 rounds throught it with no failures of any kind.  The pistol
shoots about 5" to the left at 25' but the rear sight appears to be adjustable
given the right tools.  I paid under $150 for mine and would highly recomend 
it to anyone wanting a low priced defensive handgun.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTGATTGCTAAACACTGGGCGGCGAATCAGGGTTGGGATCTGAACAAAGACGGTCAGATTCAGTTCGTACTGCTG
Eric E. Snyder                            
Department of MCD Biology              ...making feet for childrens' shoes.
University of Colorado, Boulder   
Boulder, Colorado 80309-0347
LeuIleAlaLysHisTrpAlaAlaAsnGlnGlyTrpAspLeuAsnLysAspGlyGlnIleGlnPheValLeuLeu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:09:48 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <199301080729.AA19880@ugle.unit.no>, ole@delab.sintef.no (Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen) writes:
# Well, dillon makes a case trimmer which consists of a trimming die
# which you mount in the press and a motor driven trimmer head. Fast,
# My only complaint is that they make it only in .223, .308 and 30-06.
# However, a trimming die could be made fairly easily from a standard
# sizing die, it should only be a matter of some drilling, turning and
# threading.


    The latest Blue Press lists power trimmer dies available in the 
 following calibers:

	.223
	.222
	.22-250
	.30-30
	.243
	.308
	.220 swift
	6mm
	.25-06
	.270
	.30/06
	7mm Rem Mag
	338 Win Mag
	458 Win Mag
	300 Win Mag
	300 Wby Mag

   This must be new because they used to only be available in .223/.308
and .30/06. 


						John




-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: NESS_ERIK/HP5400_LA@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gatling Guns
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:04:54 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard VCD

Hi all,

(1)  Lately I've been wondering about the legal status of gatling guns.  I'd
really like to buy or make one, but I don't know whether these fall into the
same category as fully automatic weapons or not.  This is important, because
in my state (Washington) it is illegal to own fully automatic weapons, no
matter how many hoops you are willing to go through.  Are there any dealers
out there (especially from Washington) who could tell me whether or not
these things would be legal?  Don't worry, I won't take your word for law
and then sue you ;)...  In fact, if anyone can direct me to the proper
authorities in Washington, I can ask them directly.

(2)  Now then, on to the good stuff--Assuming that I >can< have one, I'd
like it to fire .22LR for obvious reasons ($$$).  Am I likely to find one
for sale? And, if so, at what price?  Does anyone know of a company that
builds them or sells them in kit form? Finally, what about the plans for
sale in the backs of all the gun magazines?  Has anyone actually purchased
these ($40, I think) and if so, did you build the thing?  Did it work?


Thanks very much for any help you can give me...

Erik Ness
Hewlett Packard     <---BTW, HP has no interest in Gatling Guns, this
Vancouver Division      is a personal request for information.  Thanks.
erikn@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self Protect Handgun vs. Shotgun.
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:47:21 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1993Jan6.210829.16077@samba.oit.unc.edu> rslugg@med.unc.edu (Robert Slugg) writes:
#...Having spent a couple of summers
#working in a brick yard, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that
#cinder blocks are surprisingly fragile except in the center and on the
#ends.

As I understood it, cinder blocks are extremely weak under tension
(i.e. if you try to pull it apart), but fairly strong under compression.
Since a bullet would be doing the later, I suspect a shot might not
penetrate well. The hollow space might help also: The bullet would probably
penetrate the first layer, but be somewhat deflected. It would then hit the
second layer at a greater angle which would reduce penetration. 

                                                     Frank Crary
                                                     CU Boulder
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Walther P-38 9mm
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:25 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

heedah@tc.fluke.COM (Hide Iba) writes:

#I'm also interested in getting some information on getting extra magazines
#(at a reasonable price) and nice grips.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Can't do it.  Interarms guns, Walther's in particular, have spectacularly
high prices for accessories.   P-38 mags are $50, vs ~$13 for Browning 
Hi-power mags.    Interarms is 703-548-1400.  I guess the reason is that
they are less popular, so less aftermarket stuff is mass made for them.

There's a place called Wherehouse 610 that sells various grips, mags,
and the like but I'm not sure if they sell retail.  800-338-6886.  
They don't have P-38 mags, but maybe Michaels or Pachmyer makes grips.

#How much should I have paid for this gun? 
#    (Remember, it's in pretty good condition)

	It depends on what kind it is, but according to my 12 edition
blue book, ~$350-500 seems like a reasonable range.  It could vary 
widely above or below that though.

#It seems to like my FMJ. But would it take anything else?

	You have to find out.  Some of them will not feed JHPs,
but it could be altered.  Whether that would reduce its value
and whether that matters is something maybe a gunsmith could
tell you.

JD
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Major 9 loading data.
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:47:30 GMT
Organization: "Well, a head on top, an arm on each side, two legs...."

In <1993Jan4.225237.15449@unislc.uucp> unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Ted Belliston) writes:

#There is a wildcat called a Major 9, shot by a a few IPSC shooters, but it is 
#not a 9x21.  The Major 9 uses a 9X19 pistol case (not a 9x21 case), and uses
#a bullet weight of 162 gns.  The Major 9 load seating depth also exceeds SAAMI
#specs for a 9x19 cartrige.  A Major 9 is ABSOLUTLY NOT TO BE SHOT IN A 9x19
#firearm.

Speaking of which, where does Major 9 stack up against 9 SMG?  I'm not
about to go out and try to fire Major 9 in a factory 9x19 firearm, but
I'm curious.  (FPS, measured CUP, etc.)  (And don't tell me that Major
9 outranks Lieutenant 7, thanks, I've heard that one.)

-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
From: hays@SSD.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt or Springfield 1911A1
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:25:43 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <C04oDs.AJv@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, steve@law7.daytonoh.ncr.com (Steve Bridges) writes:
|> hays@SSD.intel.com (Kirk Hays) writes:
|> 
|> #(Since the rear sight is not part of the slide on a M1911, it is not necessary to
|> #modify the slide to lower point-of-impact, just the rear sight.  Better yet, get
|> #a higher front sight.)
|> 
|> On my Colt 1911 (it's a 1911, not a 1911A1), the rear site IS part of the
|> slide -- it's made (forged, cast, whatever) from the same hunk of metal as
|> the slide.

I stand corrected - Since I collect mostly S&W, but only shoot and acquire
M1911A1's, I was unaware of this feature of some/all M1911's.

My apologies to all.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: trivia
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:02 GMT



Nathan A Horstman writes:
#What type of 7.62 cartridge did the WWII M1 Carbine take?  Is it still
#produced?  Can any current 7.62 brass be cut down if need be and loaded


As others have noted, the common nomenclature for the M1 Carbine's cartridge
is ".30 Carbine". Its metric designation is 7.62x33mm. It is so designated
on the French postwar ammo, which should be avoided as it is very corrosive.
Not that that's bad per se, but the Carbine's gas system is not amenable to
thorough cleaning.

The "LC 52" ammo is produced in China. Apparently the headstamp is copied
from ammo captured in Korea - they have done this in other cases as well.



#Where can a person find CorBon ammo?

Several ads in Shotgun News offer it. Atlanta Discount Ammo sells it as well.



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sights
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:45:14 GMT
Organization: who knows

ka02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Kent P. Aitchison) writes...
#    Why are the front sight ramps and the back sight slots so darn wide on
#modern handguns?  I recently bought a Buckmark and a Super Blackhawk Hunter
#(.44) thinking I could do some interesting handiwork with them.  Don't get me
#wrong, I love them both and have already had hours of fun, but the sights drive
#me nuts.  These things are a mile wide, completely obscuring targets.  How can
#I expect to shoot bullseyes when the front ramp covers 3 rings at 25 yards?

Most bullseye shooters use the 6 o'clock hold. I think that a wider front sight
blade minimizes sight error.  Many older eyes appreciate the wider front sight
:-)
From: mjalava@lk-hp-20.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS Slam-fire/full auto = $1.4 million
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:07:25 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology

In article <930107234210_71773.3463_DHG72-1@CompuServe.COM> 71773.3463@CompuServe.COM (Brian  T. Millin) writes:

#To paraphrase, two years ago John E. Murray let the bolt drop on an SKS-47
#sold as the "Cowboy Companion" by Navy Arms when it slam-fired and went
#full auto. It tore loose from his grip and moved backward, firing one
#bullet through his back killing him instantly. The rifle dumped 7 rounds
#in less than one second, lodging under the tire of his truck 38 feet away.

Sounds unbelievable! I suppose this SKS was chambered in 7.62x39, as
they usually are. The cartridge has so low recoil that at least in
AK-47-type guns you barely notice it, not even to speak about going 38
feet with 7 shots. How heavy is an SKS? You can empty a 30 rnd
magazine in a full auto AK with not too much trouble (of course the
accuracy is not the best possible :-). The accident itself sounds
possible, but the 38 feet...

	Mika
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:34:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) says:

# Well, my MAC-11 is 1400 according to the book, and when loaded hot
#cycles even faster.  It's far too fast to be useful as an SMG.  The Army
#supposedly did a study (it's mentioned in Janes, I think) and determined
#the optimum rate of fire for an SMG as 350 RPM.  The Thompson ran about
#450 depending on the variant, and was a close as anyone ever got.

1)  How does a designer retard the rate of fire in a SMG?
2)  How come nobody can get 350 fps?
3)  I assume cook offs are less of a problem for closed bolt 
guns when a pistol caliber is used, and even less so when the 
rate is lowered.   How slow/fast does it take to make a diff?

	I looked at a Cobrey something or other at one time
and wasn't impressed: it was a shoe box with a handle on it 
and a spout in front.    I might trade my Jennings for it,
but only because I could then sell it.  If the cheap looks 
were fully reflected in the retail price they would be interesting
(ie. if they were were in the same price bracked as the Davis
zinc derringers).

	They made a smaller .380 version, which seems kind
of more silly.  

Jim Del Vecchio
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: I want a .45 ACP Thompson Contender bbl...
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:14:34 GMT
Organization: Circle 'C' Shellfish Ranch, Shores of the Pacific, California

After much contemplation, I think I'd like to get a custom barrel
for my Thompson Contender in .45 ACP.  Does anyone have a clue 
how to get something like this made or how much it would cost?

(Why would I want such a strange thing?  Wellll...  the .45LC/.410
is not Politically Correct in The Peoples State of California, so
it isn't really an option.  I know, go to Nevada and buy one ...
but I don't relish the thought of being paranoid every time I 
shoot it at the range {or drive to/from the range...}.  The .45-70
Govt. is reputed to be a bit, er, ambitious when fired.  {And I'm
interested in something that I can load light for reduced noise.
In other words, the .45-70 at 600 fps would be a mighty empty case...}
I don't like the idea of spending $1+/round to get ammo that is
heavily loaded when what I want is cheap light loads...  This leads
to the .45 ACP as a cheap round that is PC in California and has 
a small case volume so reduced power loads would be easier to 
develop).

So, is this a dumb idea, or what?  Can I get some other .45 and have
the chamber reamed, or does someone make custom TC bbls or am I 
looking at $300 for the bbl alone so I should just give it up?    

(BTW, I found a local gun shop that got me a good deal on a tumbler
and has much better prices than I'd been seeing... Thanks for the 
suggestion to try smaller more personal gun shops!  The same shop
has a resident gunsmith and is comfortable with custom orders.
When I asked about a .45 LC NON-.410 the folks stated that the
vendors will not send them ANY .45 LC, since the .410 can be
chambered {with some effort} in a standard .45 LC chamber and
the vendors were not interested in discussing it with The State 
Government ...  Sigh.  So the .45 LC is just not an option in 
the Contender for me...  Sheesh... And all I want to do is get
the biggest chunk of lead I can get going as slow as possible
with as many case volumes of expansion as possible from a low
CUP load to see if I can make a quiet load so I don't have to
risk my hearing as much.  Sigh.  Isn't government wonderfull... )

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: bartb@hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbitt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: M70 .308 W. Target Rifle For Sale
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:05:27 GMT

I have a Winchester Model 70 factory target rifle for sale.  Details are:

  * .308 Winchester.

  * 26-in. heavy stainless steel barrel, 1:12 twist, 4 groove.

  * Winchester Ultra-Match style receiver with stripper clip guide.

  * Factory Marksman stock; Devcon plastic steel bedded.

  * Redfield International front and rear sights.

  * Excellent condition.

This rifle was made in 1976 for the International Palma Matches in the USA.
It has "PALMA MATCH 1876-1976" marked on the right side of the barrel.  It
has 1274 rounds through the barrel.  With Lapua match bullets, I've shot
sub-MOA groups at 600 yards with it; even won a Palma match with it.  At
100 yards, I shot one 15-shot test group with Sierra 168s at .35 MOA.

Those interested should email me their intentions along with an offer.  

BB
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Freedom Arms Mini-Revolvers
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:22:24 GMT

Does anyone know if the Freedom Arms .22 Mini-Revolvers have any
collector value?  A local dealer has three of them (2 .22LR, 1 .22
Magnum) with 3" barrels, left over from when they were last produced -
in other words, new, never fired.

I've seen the blue book value, and it assigns a premium to the 3"
barrel model, but an ad in Shotgun News listed one for $335, which
is about twice the blue book value.

What's the scoop?

Please note these are Freedom Arms manufacture, not North American
Arms.

Rob
From: scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 7x30 Waters loads?
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:25:50 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

Anybody out there have any pet loads for the TC in 16" 7x30 Waters?  Any
pointers to a good source of infor for this cartridge?

Thanks in advance,

-Scot
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Source of .308 ammo
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:30:46 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <29466@oasys.dt.navy.mil> wthomas@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Thomas) writes:
#       One interesting
#aspects of the comments that I have presently received, both on
#and off the news net, is is the opinion that NORINCO's non-corrosive
# .308 ammo is really pretty darn good. What does everyone else think?

My experience was that Norinco's _non-corrosive_ ammo does a very
good job of rusting your gun if you don't clean the gun thoroughly :-(.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net