From: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (exuptr@exu.ericsson.se)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Brainwaves & John Haugh
Date: 15 Sep 92 22:57:56 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Sep15.164914.12443@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <exuptr.582.716507978@exu.ericsson.se> exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (exuptr@exu.ericsson.se) writes:

>>Can you clarify?  Is the fetus the same person as the mother?  Persons
>>that claim it is a parasite would be outta luck, then.  It cannot be a 
>>parasite AND non-separate.

>>Exactly what is your belief?  No flames, just looking for details.

>An embryo or foetus isn't a person at all until it has human
>brainwaves.  Until that time, it is a tissue growth that may become a
>person. 

OK, I understand that much.  Now, what do you mean "human brainwaves"?

>>Your appendix is alive, human, and part of _you_, is it not.  I'm not really 
>>sure you could call it human, at least not "a human".  Nor will it ever be a 
>>human.  It will always be your appendix, unless, as you say, it is removed.

>A tumor is also alive, human (insofar as genetic material -- blastoma
>and original foetal cells resemble cancer cells more than 'human'
>onces), and part of me.  It is also a parasite.

Parasites are, by definition, not "part" of the host.  Where do you get the 
idea that the blastocytes are similar to cancer?  Or more to the point, 
in what way are they similar?

>>I think you are trying to fiilter only certain qualities of a fetus to your 
>>advantage.  There are many ways in which the fetus-mother relationship is 
>>nothing like the appendix-Fred relationship, don't you agree?

>Why do you say "to my advantage"?  

Argumental advantage.

>Personally, being male, I don't
>ever expect to need an abortion.  And no, I don't agree.  Up until
>late in development, there isn't a lot of difference between the
>"fetus-mother relationship" and the "appendix-Fred relationship".

Ok, for starters:

1> fetal chemistry controls much of the development process early on
   it's not even connected to the mother for the first hours.

   not like an appendix

2> fetus requires an outside life force for generation (sperm), and is
   genetically only similar to it's mother

   not like an appendix

3> fetus will eventually leave the mother to survive on it's own, in most
   cases

   not like an appendix

4> Blastosphere (is that right?) develops from a single cell, in a matter
   of weeks, to something like a complete organism (although at this 
   point it is agreeably non-human looking).  You can distinguish head, 
   body, limbs.

   never seen an appendix do this

5> Most (nearly all) women claim to experience a "connection" with their
   growing fetus in the first few months

   if this has happened with an appendix, i wanna hear about it

6> Appendicitis is not a result of unsafe sex ;-)

>>Most important being, as I said, your appendix will at best always be your 
>>appendix.  It is fully realized.  It is not a separate organism.  The fetus 
>>is conceived separate, attaches for a while, and becomes separate again.  It
>>does not mirror it's host's genetics.  It develops independently; the mother'
>>s biology only partly controls development.  None of these things are 
>>attributable to an appendix, and I don't think there's any other paradigm 
>>you can match them all to either.

>And until it DOES become separate again (at birth), it is just another
>clump of differentiated tissues.  

Name one other clump of differentiated tissues that has the diversity of
a developing fetus.

>Once it has human brain waves, and
>hence is a 'person', it is different.  

Still need to know what you call a human barinwave.

>To that point, it's not radically different from blood cells.

Are you serious?  Blood cells?  I'm beginning to wonder about your mastery
of biology.

When has a blood cell ever budded an arm or finger?  When has a blood cell
ever sprouted a brainstem?  When ever has a blood cell regulated it's own
evolution?  When has a blood cell ever had it's own independent set of 
hormones and other chemical triggers that carry on independent of the host?

>-- 
>"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
> in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
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