From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re:Fraud & Libel on UseNet
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 19:57:24 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.113733.1651@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu 
(Vedat  Dogan) responded to article <1992Dec31.191413.9962@urartu.sdpa.org>  
dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) and wrote:

[DD] (Vedat  Dogan) wrote:
[DD] 
[DD] [VD] [DD] "...the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a million and a half
[DD] [VD] [DD] Armenians perished..." 
[DD] [VD]
[DD] [VD] [VD]   is this the way you 'quote' from the books, Mr. Davidian..
[DD] 
[DD] [DD] Go to the library, get the book, and YOU quote from it! I gave you 
[DD] [DD] the reference...now go and check it out.
[DD]  
[DD] [VD] It is obvious that you think I don't have the book... 
[DD] 
[DD] If you have the book or have to go to the library for it is immaterial.
 
[VD] What are you talking about?. in previuos line, you ask me to get the book
[VD] (you guessed I didn't have the book), but now you are telling me if I 
[VD] have it or not is immeterial..which one do you want..Are you in a bad 
[VD] mood? and this was also your problem not mine..
 
I don't care how you get the book, that is the point. If you have the book, 
fine, if you have to get the book, fine.

[VD]  you are humiliated on this matter because you were not aware that 
[VD]  I had already taken the words from the same book and same paragrapf 
[VD]  you 'quoted' when you were 'advising' me to get this book.. 

Total Bull! I have no idea what you are taking about. Below I have enclosed 
the entire page that is easily verified by anybody wishing to take the time 
to. I have no idea what paragraph you quoted from, but it certainly was not 
in the paragraph I refer to.

[VD]  My point is still here:
[VD]          YOU didn't quote exactly and completely?..
[VD] 
[VD]  will you correct it?
[VD]          
[VD]  If not, the 'quotation' below
[VD] 
[VD]       "...the terrible holocaust of 1915, when an unknown number
[VD]        of Turks perished."
[VD]  
[VD]  will stand here... 
 
You have an unfortunate view of the world and its documentation.

And I will repeat my claim:

The point of all this, sir, is that Bernard Lewis never said Armenians killed 
2.5 million of anything. Turkish Genocide Apology has posted many times on 
UseNet that Bernard Lewis did state such revisionism of history. You have 
failed to show that Bernard Lewis stated that Armenian killed 2.5 million 
anything. Thus, we have both demonstrated that the posting of the Cosar-Argic-
Mutlu revisionist machine are libelous and fraudulent. 
 
[VD] we both didn't demonstrate anything else..it is your guess again..
 
I don't guess, as you have guessed in the word "Turk" for "Armenian", and
put words in Bernard Lewis's mouth.

[VD] 'an unknown number of turks perished', which Bernard Lewis states in his 
[VD] book, does not contradict any number claimed by the other turkish 
[VD] netters..
[VD] 
[VD]  They used his book as a source for an event in which an unknown number
[VD]  of turks were killed by armenians, not for the numbers..
[VD]  For the numbers, there are other sources they use.. 
[VD] 
[VD]  Please prove your claim that they quoted from B.Lewis' book in their 
[VD] article for the NUMBER of Turks (2.5 million) killed by armenians...

What a weasel! I never said there was a quote by the revisionist you are
attempting to join forces with, I said Bernard Lewis was misrepresented on 
UseNet -- JUST AS YOU HAVE!

[VD]  in your proof, Mr.Davidian, use their quotations for the NUMBERS taken
[VD]  from B.Lewis' book, please -not from your 'guess'..

In article <9212231951@ zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) we read:

[claim] For whatever reason, you do not seem to understand that you would be
[claim] better off leaving certain topics alone, if you don't want things to
[claim] blow up in your face. Besides, leave the criminal members of the
[claim] ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle alone. They have been trashed
[claim] long time ago. As for the Turkish genocide, during the First World War 
[claim] and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship through a 
[claim] premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-
[claim] old policy of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely 
[claim] murdering 2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 
[claim] year homeland.

[claim] The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
[claim] of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
[claim] This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
[claim] and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
[claim] Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
[claim] Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
[claim] Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
[claim] Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
[claim] Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
[claim] Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
[claim] Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
[claim] Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
[claim] others.

[claim] J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
[claim] the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

[claim] Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
[claim] Princeton Universit

We are told that Bernard Lewis has "proven" above statement which includes the 
2.5 million figure. What I shall include, in the following quote is what 
Bernard Lewis stated on the subject, which is not what the above claim states
he has "proved".

The following is the entire page, where the quote in question is found in the
Second Edition of Bernard Lewis's _The Emergence of Modern Turkey_, 1968,
Oxford University Press, London, Oxford, New York, page 356, for it is easier 
to find and verify than the 1961 First Edition. The entire page is as follows:

---------------------------- start lewis.quo -------------------------

"356          The Emergence of Modern Turkey

Christian and Imperial principles enabled the powers of Europe to intervene on
their behalf, supporting their claims both to citizenship and to secession. In 
these circumstances, suspicion, fear, hatred--and sometimes, we may add, the 
high example of Western intolerance--transformed the Turkish attitude to the
subject peoples. Turkish weakness and uncertainty, in the face of foreign 
invasion and internal rebellion, often led to terrible oppression and 
brutality.

Most tragic was the case of the Armenians, who at the beginning of the 
nineteenth century were still known as the Millet-i Sadika, the loyal 
community, and were described by a well-informed French visitor as the 
minority group most loyal to the Ottoman Empire and most trusted by the Turks. 
The change began with the Russian conquest of the Caucasus in the first 
quarter of the nineteenth century, and the creation of a Russian Armenia on 
the eastern border of Turkey, where the Armenian Church was established and 
recognized and where Armenian governors and generals ruled provinces and 
commanded armies. The political and cultural impact of Russian Armenia on the 
one hand, and the new national and liberal ideas coming from Europe on the 
other, powerfully affected the Ottoman Armenians, especially the rising middle 
class, and stimulated the growth of an ardent and active Armenian nationalist 
movement.

For the Turks, the Armenian movement was the deadliest of all threats. From 
the conquered lands of the Serbs, Bulgars, Albanians, and Greeks, they could, 
however reluctantly, withdraw, abandoning distant provinces and bringing the 
Imperial frontier nearer home. But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-
Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast, lay in the very
heart of the Turkish homeland--and to renounce these lands would have meant 
not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state. Turkish and 
Armenian villages, inextricably mixed, had for centuries lived in neighbourly 
association. Now a desperate struggle between them began a struggle between 
two nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the 
terrible holocaust of 1915 when a million and half Armenians perished.

In the Turkish Republic, the constitution and the law accorded complete 
equality to all citizens. Yet even on the official side, in the structure and 
policies of the state, there were signs that, despite secularism and 
nationalism, the older idea that Muslim"

----------------------------------- lewis.quo ------------------------------

Hmm...just where is your quote, in the same paragraph as ...1915... regarding
an "unknown number of Turks"! You sir would not only be thrown off of a 
debating team but most likely would be banned from further competition!


-- 
David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org> |"The massacres? Oh well! They merely  
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies | amuse me!"  -Talaat Pasha, architect of 
P.O. Box 382761                      | Turkish the genocide of Armenian people. 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  | (Four Years Beneath the Crescent, p 208)