HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zughbi@dmpe.csiro.au (another phoenics person)
Subject: Re: I NEED HELP ON LEBANON RECENT HISTORY
Organization: CSIRO. Div of Mineral and Process Engineering.
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 00:08:10 GMT



Does that mean that Khaled Soufi and John ElGhani are supporters of Bashir Gemmayel now?

Whatever is the case, I think we all know now of the book by Jonathan Randal on Lebanon.
He is a journalist and wrote a very one-sided book according to the point of view of many.
The book is not a reference on Lebanese affairs and should not be used as such.

I may not be disagreeing on what was quoted from it in Khaled's last article, but neither
Randal nor similar books by Robert Fisk about a later stage of the war in Lebanon should
be used as representative of the facts. The only reference in this regard should be what
people, and eventhough not Pierre and Bashir and most of them are still alive, do admit
about themselves.

On another matter, I feel Khaled's reply to Mary Howard on who are the PHOENICIANS very
incomplete and misleading `Khaled put 1500 years in the mist of history when convenient 
for him, just like that..'. I do not want Mary to be confused by many conflicting answers,
but I do not want her to get an inaccurate answer either. I will reply with a refernce to Hitti
and others in due course. I think this will be after Easter.
From: elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Talk at Harvard University
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:29:25 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.


A talk sponsored by the Institute for Social and Economic Policy in the
Middle East will be held at the Kennedy School of Government. Details
follow.

        Date:    April 20-th 
        Time:    5:30-7:30
        Place:   Goodman Conference Room L 166
        Subject: Lebanon pre, post Taef and upcoming elections.
        Speaker: Ron Malek
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: mordachi@pyrite.SOM.CWRU.Edu (Zakaria Kiklikle)
Subject: Re: Pleasure Marriages
X-Post-Machine: pyrite.som.cwru.edu
Organization: WSOM CSG, CWRU, Cleve. OH
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 16:04:50 GMT


Michel,

Haidar is Lebanese and one of the most reasonable and caring ones I
have met.  He sees both sides of issues.  He is not just a Shi'a
Lebanese or a Lebanese who only thinks of his faction.  He is a
Lebanese that is concerned for his country and all of the people who
live there regardless of their religion or politics.

When you initially posted about the pleasure marriages, I was taken by
surprise also.  It was posted out of the blue so to speak.  You say
that you posted it to generate discussion and to learn more about a
section of the lebanese population that you are not familiar with.
It would have been helpful to initially state that the posting was for
the purpose of getting feed back from other individuals who are more
knowledgible on the subject.

I am a christian and I was offended by the article and felt the whole
intent of the article was for embarrassment and degredation.  I do
hope that was not your intent.  

Sincerely,

Q
From: basilh@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Basil Hamdan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Pleasure Marriages
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:03:54 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Apr9.201417.16117@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> at392@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michel M. Karam) writes:
>
>In a previous article, haidar@ces.cwru.edu (H. Harmanani) says:
>
>>The article Mr. Karam has posted was initially posted on Lebnet and
>>the topic was beaten to death there.
>
>Oh really? Beaten to death? There were two articles about the pleasure 
>marriages one trying to limit the damage caused by the article, the other
>blaming the moderators of lebnet for posting it.
>
Did that give you an indication that it is inappropriate to post an article
that inaccurately and unfairly portrays a segment of the Lebanese population ?

>
>>  The problem I had with it along
>>with most people was that it is uncalled for to post except to degrade
>>a major sect in Lebanon and that is not Ok.
>
>I found the article to be very informative and it confirmed various stories
>I had heard about the pleasure marriages.
>
This article is not informative, in fact it is more akin to disinformation.
FYI this practice is shunned
by the majority of the Shi'a population, and while it does happen
is in no way representative of the Shi'a customs.  Posting it by Leb-Net 
and your repost are clearly aimed at giving it some credence and a cheap
shot attack that deserves nothing but contempt.

>>  There was no discussion
>>about this topic for Mr. Karam to generously post it for the rest of
>>us. 
>
>I find the article far more relevant to culture (note the name of this 
>newsgroup) than the various political articles posted in here.
>
What you find cultural, unfortunately, seems to be any article that contains
some Muslim bashing, or Arab bashing.

>> In addition, the article has a couple of cheap shots against
>>Sunni-Shiite relations and Islam in general. 
>
>Could you mention the cheap shots? Are the claims made by the article 
>inaccurate? Could you correct them for us? I would really like to learn 
>more on the subject.
>
The problem with the article is that it uses some specific cases to make a
point that is predetermined by the author about the morals of the Shi'a 
community, portraying them as hypocrites and morally lax.
The article may be accurate in the facts it relates however it is highly
insiduous in perpetrating to describe a set of values ascribed to the Shia's
by using non-representative examples.  Your own reasons for reposting this
trash are also insiduous and illustrate why we have a long way to go
before we can be part of the same nation.

>>
>>No wonder Lebanon is so messed up after all.
>
>Because of newspaper articles describing the customs of some Middle Eastern
>religious groups?
>
No.  Because some people such as yourself never miss a chance to slander
other Lebanese, and take a perverse satisfaction in portraying people
from other religions as "uncivilized".  Congratulations Mr. Karam, you are
the winner of the award given by scl to the most disingenuous poster.

>
>Michel

Basil
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: Bottom Line: Arabs Are Incompetent (was Re: Are Arabs incompetent)
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 15:03:04 GMT

In article <33044@imag.imag.fr> oueichek@imag.fr writes:
>(Note, i've crossposted this article to s.c.a, ALL Arabs have to read the gems
>written by Mr Mourad).
>elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad) writes:
>: In article <1992Apr01.224414.48291@yuma.acns.colostate.edu> bh437292@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
>: >In article <1992Apr1.162410.21644@njitgw.njit.edu> elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad) writes:
>: 
>: ....
>: >Finally, I would like to comment on your title, "are Arabs incompetent",
>: >the answer is obviously yes since we agree that our state of affairs
>: >is to say the least sad, in the Arab countries, ....
>: >
>: >
>: >Basil
>: 
>: I like to keep things simple and brief. There are no signs that Arabs will
>: become competent in my life time or the next. 
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  Unbelievable, what a gem, what a wonderful statement, maybe the net.Arabs have
>to thank Mr Mourad for his deep thoughts about OUR future (and not HIS, because
>he is NOT an Arab).
>
>: As to my attack against Arabs, take it as a sign of disapproval.
>: Since according to you and me Arabs are incompetent, I CHOSE to distance myself 
>                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: from Arabs. 
>  ^^^^^^^^^^
>: Thanks Basil.
>: 
>: Regards, Elie
>   
>    Oh yeah, because hadratukum are not Arab, you are Lebanese, but not Arab.
>You speak "Lebanese" not Arabic, what a shame to hear someone who claims
>publically that he wants to "distance himself" from his own people. 
>    
>-- 
>Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. ouicheck@imag.imag.fr
>    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | LABORATOIRE 	BULL-IMAG


"Man ankara aslaho, la aslun laho". He who denies his origin, does not have one.

>Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
>    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |
From: tabbara@decwin.enet.dec.com (My name is...)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: The racist Mr. Mourad (was Re: Bottom Line: Arabs Are Incompetent (was Re: Are Arabs incompetent))
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:48:16 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Apr12.183748.21131@colorado.edu>, saouma@bechtel (SAOUMA VICTOR E) writes...
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
>
> [all deleted to save space]

Victor,

I agree that the Arabs haven't done much as a GROUP in the past hundred years.
Does that mean that each individual Arab did nothing as well ? Probably not !

Even so, I don't think this is an excuse for us to deny who we are and 
completely forget where we came from ...

As for the Lebanese vs. Arabs. Well, no matter how bad the other Arab states
are, I don't recall any of them having a civil war in the last 20 years and
and in the process destroying their country, killing each other, and ...etc
No matter how much we blame other countries for our troubles, we all know
who is most to blame for this mess. Namely the Lebanese (aka WE)...

Regards,

Khaled
From: howard@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: A better joke : )))
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:02:49 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <NMOUAWAD.92Apr15225051@watmath.waterloo.edu>, nmouawad@waterloo.edu (Naji Mouawad) writes:

> Well, you know Dina, I am really offended by your joke !
>
> I am color blind
>
> naji.
>
> heh heh ...

This is the first joke I've actually laughed at on the net in months. My
father is color blind, and also very proud of his Irish heritage. When I
was a kid, on the morning of St. Patrick's day, before we were all going
to go off to see the St.Patrick's day parade in Boston, he showed up at
the breakfast table and asked us to compliment him on how nice his kelly
green tie was. We felt obliged to tell him it was not kelly green at all,
but blue!

One nice thing about claiming more than one heritage is that you 
get to enjoy more holidays that way. As an Irish-French-American, 
I not only get to enjoy St. Patrick's day, but Bastille Day, 
and of course the 4th of July as well! Surely if Lebanon is over
6000 years old, you could celebrate a holiday nearly every day, 
couldn't you? And if everybody would agree that they ought to be 
nice to each other on holidays, regardless of their differences.....

Naaa... it was just a thought. 

-Mary Howard
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Basil Hamdan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: just a joke!
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:29:14 GMT
Reply-To: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Basil Hamdan)
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University

In article <1992Apr14.130600.28715@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
gmarkari@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Georges Z Markarian) writes:
> 
> To all those who posted articles attacking my last posting and to
allthose who 
> sent me personal e-mail (of the attacking kind).
>      First of all I clearly stated that this was not my opinion
>      Secondly, by giving the comment at the end I was hoping to somehow
>      stimulate the thought that it's about time that we wake up and smell the
>      coffee and do something to erase this negative image regardless of 
>      whether it's correct or not.
>      Last but not least it is obvious that those folks who wrote back calling
>      me a racist are too immature to take a joke (who knows may be if they
>      did not think that this stupid joke had some truth to it they might not
>      have been so offended).
> 
> Best regards
> Georges Markarian

You just don't get it, do you, Mr. Markarian ?
No matter how you wrap it up, saying you are just repeating 
someone else's joke, complaining we are not mature enough 
to take a joke, asking us to do some soul searching, and all 
of the other ways you can disguise racism, the fact is
you believe this is true. Quote:

       who knows may be if they did not think that this stupid
       joke had some truth to it they might not have been so offended

and the fact is you did promote this point of view about Arabs on scl.
Stop hiding behind your finger.
There is in your writing a lack of judgement, you "think" about
the implications of passing along a joke that has definite racist
overtones than you decide to go ahead and do so.  You call on us
(Arabs) to examine what we have done to deserve such an image, yet
you never examine your own true beliefs. 
Most of the people that write to scl are highly intelligent 
professionals and academics.  Several of them are working to erase
that stereotype of Arabs, which, I agree with you, does exist in the West.
Why do you insist on working against them while calling on them
to erase that stereotype ?
I ask you, can you honestly convince yourself that you really
do not believe, in the back of your mind somewhere, that the "joke" 
you shared with us has some truth to it ? I don't believe you can.
Is it time for you to wake up and smell the coffee and do something
to erase your own negative image, which in this case is correct ?

Basil
From: ghajj@mozart.amd.com (Ghassan Hajj)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Pleasure Marriages
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:24:28 GMT
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

Could Mr Karam please come forward and give us his reasons for posting
such articles.
best,
Ghassan hajj
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: nmouawad@waterloo.edu (Naji Mouawad)
Subject: Re: Georges Brassens on Chauvinism [FRENCH]
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:41:22 GMT

In article <AYMAN.92Apr13150247@sol.berkeley.edu> ayman@sol.berkeley.edu (Ayman Fawaz) writes:

   The following two verses taken from a song by Georges Brassens, a
   French poet/singer, are dedicated to the "proud nationalists" in our
   midst, specially those who are ecstatic to have at least 10 good
   reasons to be proud of their country and harbor nothing but disdain
   (also backed with 10 reasons) to their neighbors.


	La ballade des gens qui sont nes quelque part


   C'est vrai qu'ils sont plaisants tous ces petits villages
   Tous ces bourgs ces hameaux ces lieux-dits ces cites
   Avec leurs chateaux forts de leurs eglises leurs plages
   Ils n'ont qu'un seul point faible et c'est d'etre habites
   Et c'est d'etre habites par des gens qui regardent
   Le reste avec mepris du haut de leurs remparts
   La race des chauvins des porteurs de cocardes
   Les imbeciles heureux qui sont nes quelque part
   Les imbeciles heureux qui sont nes quelque part

   Maudits soient ces enfants de leur mere patrie
   Empales une fois pour toutes sur leurs clocher
   Qui vous montrent leur tours leurs musees leur mairie
   Vous font voir du pays natal jusqu'a loucher
   Qu'ils sortent de Paris ou de Rome ou de Sete
   Ou du diable vauvert ou bien de Zanzibar
   Ou meme de Montcuq ils s'en flattent mazette
   Les imbeciles heureux qui sont nes quelque part
   Les imbeciles heureux qui sont nes quelque part


Thanks, Ayman ! Je ne la connaissais pas celle-la !

naji
--
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
    | Naji Mouawad  |          nmouawad@watmath.waterloo.edu            |
    |  University   |---------------------------------------------------|
    | Of Waterloo   |   "The Stranger in us is our most familiar Self"  |
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
From: elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: I AM A PHOENICIAN! vs A SYRIAN
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:54:07 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Apr14.034812.1015647@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>
>........................ and should hang a picture of PRESIDENT
>HAFIZ AL ASAD on their walls, and should join the great BAATH PARTY.

A perfect example of what I have been talking about. !

JLEs logo (compressed): Syria Loves You.
                        Omma Arabiyya Wahida Thata Risala Khalida.

And you guys really want me to become an Arab :-)
Maybe those people who want to improve the Arabic image ought
to start improving their own people first.

Regards, Elie.
From: saouma@bechtel (SAOUMA VICTOR E)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: A better joke : )))
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:10:14 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

As I recall, and speaking of Hollidays, it was not that bad in Lebanon
because we could celebrate the Hollidays of all Christian and Muslim
festivities (and those were not always on Mondays:-)

.


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: basilh@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Basil Hamdan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Travel Agencies to Lebanon
Date: 8 Apr 92 18:02:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: yuma.1992Apr08.180250.53316
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523


With the imminent coming of the traveling season, here is a list of travel
agencies and their phone numbers compiled from various postings on Leb-Net.
Thanks to all contributors who shall remain unnamed.

All Travel: (800) 344 7060 (ask for Matthew)
VISTA Int'l : (800) 228 4782 (located in West Virginia ??)
Admiral (ask for Lina Makhlouf): (800) 822 2727 (located in Marietta GA)
Travel all : (800) 621 4795
Lotus :  (800) 344 2220 (located in Los Angelos area)
Golden Arch: (800) 749 2724
Oxford Travel & Tours :  (800) 245 7264 Fax: (404) 266 8783 
			(ask for Sami Silfani)
No name for travel agency: ask for Hala (800) 426 8831
No name for travel agency: ask for Marwan or Maha (202) 625 0770
			     (located in the Washington DC area)
Number in Florida (no travel agency name given): (305) 856 3434
Atlantis :  no number 

for 800 number directory call 1 (800) 555 1212

All these people were recommended as helpful, they use all kinds of airlines
some deal typically with one specific airline rather than another, however
if you have the patience you can shop around according to what type of
airline you prefer, and the available prices.
It is to be noted that prices on tickets departing the US before the 15 th
of May are considerably cheaper (200 to 300 dollars) than after the 15 th
since this is when the "high season" starts.
I did not list prices since they are variable according to your flight
origination, your airline preference and your departure date, however,
I have done some calling around to buy myself tickets from Denver CO,
the price ranges I got were $ 950.00 on Alia before the 15 th, to over
$ 1400.00 on Swissair after the 15th.   If you are flying from a major
city such as NY or Chicago I got great prices on Air France ($875 and $ 925)
before the 15 th of May from VISTA, or from Oxford.  However if you only
hold the Lebanese passport than you will need a visa to go through France
because they do not issue transit visas to Lebanese and you need to switch
airports.

Keep trying, you will get there.

Good Luck, and see you in Lebanon.

Basil

P.S.  Since the information I have comes from a fragmented source, it may
contain inaccuracies, I did not call all of the numbers listed to verify them.
If someone has a correction, an update or an addition on the list I gave,
I as well as the rest of the rest of the  Lebanese  readeship in the USA
and Canada would appreciate your input.
From: elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Speak Arabic! (was Re: The racist Mr. Mourad (was Re: Bottom Line: Arabs Are Incompetent (was Re: Are Arabs incompetent)))
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:37:16 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Apr09.152842.17564@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>
>You people who claim that you are not Arabs make me puke. If you are not
>Arabs then don't speak Arabic. Speak French!!!
>
>Nabil Idriss

Funny, if I were to add up the languages my immediate family speaks it
would encompass:
Arabic, French, English, Armenian, Syriac, Kurdish, Turkish, Greek and 
Swedish.

So what's your point ?

Elie.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: at392@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michel M. Karam)
Subject: Re: Pleasure Marriages
Reply-To: at392@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michel M. Karam)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 14:55:38 GMT


In a previous article, haidar@ces.cwru.edu (H. Harmanani) says:

>
>Cheap shot #1: Shiites are right, Sunnis wrong.
>

You are quoting Sheikh Fadlallah here...

>The article says:
>
>The traditional split between the two main sects of Islam also embraces
>'pleasure marriages.' Sunnis claim that Mohammed annulled the practice because
>the great Islamic wars were over and soldiers were no longer away from their
>wives. The Shias claim that Mohammed condoned 'pleasure marriages' and that it
>was the second caliph, Omar, who overturned the Koran-approved practice, and
>that a caliph cannot overrule a prophet.
>
>Both sides are implacable, with Sayyed Fadlallah stating tersely:
>"We are right; they are wrong."
>
>Question: did Fadlalah REALLY say that? hmm, he must have changed his
>ideas lately.

First of all, the Middle East Times is a very respectable paper (if you 
are not familiar with it, it might benefit you to get a copy), and it has
a permanent correspondent in Lebanon (the one who conducted the interview).
I doubt the newspaper would misquote Fadlallah, taking the risk of being sued,
and I doubt very much that the correspondent would misquote Fadlallah, the 
spiritual leader of the Hizbollah, the only militia that has not relinquished 
its weapons in Lebanon.

>
>Cheap shot #2: It is a animalistic practice.
>
>Christian attitudes toward 'pleasure marriages' in this religiously polarized
>country are hostile. One bank employee called those who Practice temporary
>marriages "animals".

It says clearly: "those who practice temporary marriages"
If your claim is that pleasure marriages don't occur, then the attack is void
because it's against nobody. It certainly doesn't attack the bulk of the Shias
because only a minority among them practice pleasure marriages, right?




>
>>>No wonder Lebanon is so messed up after all.
>>
>>Because of newspaper articles describing the customs of some Middle Eastern
>>religious groups?
>	
>No, because of some people like you Michel who cannot understand their
>fellow compatriotes and don't hesitate on using anything even
>misguiding to hurt them.  I think you know what I mean.


A pretty harsh judgment there, especially since you were not able to show
in what way the article is misguiding. Again, the article's intent was to
inform and better understand the practice and why it is allowed in Shiism.
Unfortunately, all we got out of it was more insults and hatred.

Too bad we are unable to conduct civilized discussions among Lebanese (I am
assuming you are one).


Michel.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: philo@athena.mit.edu (philo)
Subject: Re: Mutuelle Des Anciens Des Freres Au Liban
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 16:19:47 GMT

I am not sure...

Which "freres" are you talking about?

is it "freres lasalle"?

-philo
-- 
.....................
dakhlak.... hawn nazl s suruur?
				(Ziad)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~