HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 05:09:55 GMT

stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>Josip Loncaric writes:

>>Would you please care to clarify this?  I'm not an expert on what
>>happened in Poland in WWII...  but I do know that the death toll
>>among Poles was enormous...  and that Hitler's campaign (starting in 1939)
>>was directed not only against Jewish but also against Slavic population
>>as well...  My encyclopedia says Poland lost 5,420,000 people in WWII,
>>including Polish Jews, Poles and others...  full 5,300,000 of these were
>>civilian casualties.

>Look at this; all of a sudden, my parents and grandparents, who were
>virtually forced to leave Poland in the 1920's because of the raging
>anti-Semitism by the Poles (or, more accurately, Polish Catholics)
>after independence, are now, all of a sudden, Poles.  Believe me,
>my parents are NOT Poles and I am NOT a Polish-American.  My ancestors
>were just about tolerated as much in Poland, our homeland for probably
>800 years, as an Armenian is tolerated in Azerbaidjan or a Serbian
>in Croatia.

>For newcomers to this group, I must re-post this.  WWII refugees that
>belong to the same synagogue as my parents can forgive somewhat the
>Germans because they were just following orders, but they cannot forgive
>the Poles, Lithuanians, and Hungarians who jumped on the bandwagon.

>>This is how much I know.  What am I missing here?

>Regarding the Poles, Hitler was just trying to reduce them to a 
>subservient population; however, with the Jews, Hitler planned
>to totally destroy us.  That's was you're missing.  If Hitler
>had succeeded in his objectives, there would still be a Polish
>people (who has just survived over 120 years of foreign rule
>as it was), but there wouldn't have been any Jews.
>-- 
>Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
>AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
>Summit, NJ
>smk@usl.com

If your ancestors, Stan, were so badly treated in Poland, how come they
stayed there as long (you say 800 years) as they did? Why did they go
there in the first place, if they were to be so badly treated there?

Second, I find it a bit bewildering that the survivors of the Holocaust
that you mention agree with the argument of former Nazis, that the
Nazis were just following orders, and hence are not to be held
responsible (this is the basis for the forgiveness given to the Germans
by the people you mention).  I mean, why all the war-crimes trials then?

MB
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: I have yet to meet a Jewish murderer.
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:50:13 GMT
	<1992Aug27.184341.664153@locus.com>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: hayim@locus.com's message of 27 Aug 92 18:43:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.184341.664153@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:
>
> I live in a fairly decent neighborhood in Los Angeles, but yet am afraid
> to let my wife or kids go out alone at night. Unfortunately, there
> have been too many incidents lately.
>
> However, I have a friend visiting from Israel, who claims that in Israel
> you can let your wife and kids go for a walk at 2 in the morning,
> and not have to worry.
>
> So I do agree with the original poster. Sure, maybe there are some
> Jewish low-lifes, but these are a rarity.

This is a rather peculiar method of argumention...

Let's see.  I was in Prague recently.  There, too, I was assured by the
locals that anyone can walk freely until 2 in the morning.  Even
*later*!  As there are very few Jews in Prague, I now realize that this
proves that although, sure, there are some non-Jewish low-lifes, these
are, in fact, a rarity.

So who are these unidentified low-lifes who menace you in LA?  Not Jews,
nor gentiles, it appears.  What's left?  Martians?
--
Yigal Arens        "You'd think [Bush] was running for First Lady instead
USC/ISI            of for President."     Bill Clinton, commenting on GOP
arens@isi.edu      attacks on his wife.   LA Times, 8/20.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:14920 soc.culture.polish:2139
From: mir@opera.chorus.fr (Adam Mirowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 27 Aug 92 12:49:11 GMT
Reply-To: mir@opera.chorus.fr (Adam Mirowski)
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: Chorus systemes, Saint Quentin en Yvelines, France

In article <1992Aug26.102942.14139@walter.cray.com>, aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

%% Did anybody count and classified victims ? I remember, that in block
%% I spent childhood in Poland there were 4 families (among 12) that
%% lost their relatives in Auschwitz, among them 1 Jewish family.
%% That proves nothing, but among victims were almost all
%% nationalities, certainly at the top were Jews and Poles. How do
%% you know Krzysztof, that Matthew was wrong ?

Ridiculous. If all Polish Jews have been killed, in your block
there would be 3 families out of 11 that lost relatives in
Auschwitz, and none of them would be Jewish.

-- 
Adam Mirowski,  mir@chorus.fr (FRANCE),  tel. +33 (1) 30-64-82-00 or 74
Chorus systemes, 6, av.Gustave Eiffel, 78182 Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines CEDEX
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: allen@golem.ssc.gov (Michael Allen)
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Reply-To: allen@ssc.gov
Organization: SSC Laboratory, Dallas, TX
	<ALLEN.92Aug25161245@golem.ssc.gov> <BtLpCx.EoC@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:12:44 GMT

>>>>> On 26 Aug 92 17:17:20 GMT, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) said:

In article <BtLpCx.EoC@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

Herman> In article <ALLEN.92Aug25161245@golem.ssc.gov> allen@ssc.gov writes:
>Herman> conclusions one can get from the assumptions.  Reform Jews do not
>Herman> accept the statement that God literally wrote even the written Torah

>Why does the Reform Movement think of the Written Torah as being more
>important than other ancient texts?  How does it decide which texts
>(or parts thereof) are important and which are not?

Herman> The entire Tanakh was written down in its present form in the Maccabean
[...]
Herman> amounts of importance of these various things.  As I see it, the consensus
Herman> is that the one-line Sh'ma prayer itself it the theology, and that the
Herman> Ten Commandments come close to being directly from God, and it goes down
Herman> from there.

The question was not "how do you interpret the Torah and history", but
why do you ignore other ancient works.  Since you have at least once
said "we know nothing from tradition", it seems to me that you must
have some independent way of knowing which texts are important to
Judaism, which represent antithetical concepts even though they have
Jewish authorship, what the words mean, and so forth.


--
===================================================
But those who toiled knew nothing of the dreams of 
        Those Who Planned;                         
And the minds who planned the Tower of Babel       
        Cared nothing for the workers who built it.

	-Metropolis
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Egg Creams
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:31:10 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug31.165614.15803@bony1.bony.com> billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) writes:
>>
>>Easilly.  But you have to either get it in glass bottles or cans.  The
>>2-litre bottles go flat much too quickly.
>
>Where do you get 2-Liter bottles?  I've only been able to find 1 liter
>bottles or cans.  And even though Katz's has the diet version (finally
>with NutraSweet rather than sacharine), none of the local stores (Nutley, NJ)
>seems to carry the diet stuff. 

I saw them once, a while ago.  But not since.  I find that the 1-litre
plastic bottles aren't much better, though.  
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "TELEPHONE, n.  An Invention of the devil which
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   abrogates some of the advantages of making a
 ((|,)                          disagreeable person keep his distance."
  ~|~                              --- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:14911 soc.culture.polish:2137
From: branley@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 27 Aug 92 12:44:08 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1992Aug26.102942.14139@walter.cray.com>, aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>
> In article <87072@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>>In article <matthew.714799780@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Matthew Zalbiciewski) writes:
>>
>>>I believe that 6 million Poles perished in WWII, around the same
>>>number as Jews. Please tell me I'm wrong Sam.
>>>
>>>MZ
>>
>>You're wrong: 6 million POLISH CITIZENS have been killed during the WWII,
>>most of them were polish Jews.
>>
>>--
>>
>
> D
id anybody count and classified victims ? I remember, that in block
> I spent childhood in Poland there were 4 families (among 12) that
> lost their relatives in Auschwitz, among them 1 Jewish family.
> That proves nothing, but among victims were almost all
> nationalities, certainly at the top were Jews and Poles. How do
> you know Krzysztof, that Matthew was wrong ?
>
> Aleksander Mazur
>
    In my block in Poland   there were about 20 families.All their children
had many relatives(aunts,uncles,cousins,grandparents...).All children but me..
I had just my parents...Does it proves anything?

oes it proves anything....
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 26 Aug 92 04:48:15 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University


In article <1992Aug26.004805.18238@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu
(Josip Loncaric) writes:

[article]

I could sit here and reply to Josip Loncaric's article in depth,
but I'd probably just end up paraphrasing sections of books 
on the subject: 

_Why the Jews_, by Prager and Telushkin.  See chapter 12, 
"Nazi Antisemitism," particularly pages 162 to the end of
the chapter.

_A History of the Jews_, by Paul Johnson, part 6, _Holocaust_,
particularly pages 484-514.

These two books are available at most University libraries,
and are available right now at the U. of Maryland.

> Would you please care to clarify this?  I'm not an expert on what
> happened in Poland in WWII...  but I do know that the death toll
> among Poles was enormous...  and that Hitler's campaign (starting in 1939)
> was directed not only against Jewish but also against Slavic population
> as well...  My encyclopedia says Poland lost 5,420,000 people in WWII,
> including Polish Jews, Poles and others...  full 5,300,000 of these were
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> civilian casualties.

Josip is not the first poster to place "Poles" and "Polish Jews"  
in separate categories.

Rob

--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM


--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Why don't they like me?   No answers please!
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 17:34:41 +0300

Two   weeks   ago  I   had   several   of   my  articles   posted   to
post-to-news@wang.com rejected,  and I associated it with the problems
Wang was  in.  I  posted my articles  then to  scj@nysernet.org.  This
time no  "reject slips"  from the  system, but  nothing seemed  to get
through.  I have now posted a couple of notes via the Wang address and
they  seem to  get  through, I  therefore will  repost  several of  my
articles to Wang and hope not too  many will get to see these articles
twice.  There can be too much even of a good thing :-).

Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re:  Shofar stinks - Help
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:34:54 +0000


> jjmorris@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Joyce Morris) writes:
>         My Father bought a shofar in late December.  He says it now smells very
>         bad like something died in it.  How can he clean it so it no longer
>         smells?  He is able to blow it with no problem.

Try filling it with sweet red kiddush wine and letting it stand for a
day or so. Then clean it out, using pipe cleaners for the narrow end
(you can twist more than one together if one cleaner won't reach far
enough).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Phillips                Tel: 44-895-442141
Burch Phillips & Co.            Fax: 44-895-421231
63a Station Road
West Drayton
Middlesex
UB7 7LR
United Kingdom                  stephenp@compulink.co.uk
From: murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Service of Charity
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:24:22 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton

Nachman Ross
The Service of Charity
 
   "Therefore,  my beloved, my brethren: set your hearts to these words
expressed in great brevity (and, please G-d, personally I will speak to
them at  length) - how in these times, with  the advent of the Messiah,
the  principal service of G-d is the  service of charity, as our sages,
of  blessed  memory,  said:  "Israel  will  be  redeemed  only  through
charity."   Our sages, of blessed memory, did not say that the study of
Torah is equivalent  to the  performance of  loving-kindness except  in
their  own days.  For with them the  principal service was the study of
Torah and, therefore,  there were great scholars: Tannaim  and Amoraim.
However,  with the  advent of  the Messiah,  as "the  Hut of  David has
fallen" to the  level of  "feet" and "heels"  - which  is the level  of
"Action" there  is no way of truly cleaving  unto it and to convert the
darkness  into its  light, except through  a corresponding  category of
action, namely the  act of charity.  For, as  known to the intelligent,
the  plane of  action with  reference to  Divinity is  the notion  of a
diffusion and efflux  of vitality to  the nethermost -  to him who  has
nothing of his own.  And whoever sacrifices his impulse in this respect
and  opens his  hand and  heart subdues  the sitra  achra (the  side of
unholiness)  and "converts the darkness into the light" of G-d, blessed
be He, Who, with  the advent of the Messiah, dwells over  us in a state
of action; and he will merit to behold "Eye to eye,  the L-rd returning
to Zion...."
(Tanya, Iggeres Hakodesh, IX, 114A-B)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: terra@athena.mit.edu (Terra Incognita)
Subject: Re: Ben & Jerry's gets kashruth certification
Organization: MIT - DMSE and Bait
Distribution: usa,ca
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:46:23 GMT

In article <Btuv6B.F1B@encore.com> amarkel@encore.com (Arieh Markel) writes:
>
>Ben mentions these locations:
>>|>
>>The two locations that I know of in Israel (In Jerusalem off of Shlomzion
>>HaMalka, and in Ranana ) both have hechsher from the rabbanut...
>>--
>
>There is another one I know of, on Dizengoff, on the east sidewalk, about
>100 m north of the corner with Nordau St. I think it is the first one that
>opened in Israel.
>
I shall be sure to take these into consideration if/when I decide to
make aliyah... :)

I didn't realize that B&J had some kosher flavors for years -- they
only recently popped up in the several supermarkets in the Boston
area at which my fiance and I shop.  Still, it's nice to know that
if/when we manage to keep very strictly kosher, we won't be stuck
eating Steve's ice cream.

>Arieh
>-- 
> Arieh Markel		  		        Tel: (305)-797-2403
> Encore Computer Corporation                    amarkel@encore.COM
> Optimizer & Instruction Scheduler Group        uunet!gould!amarkel
> Ft. Lauderdale, FL


--
Terra Incognita                             terra@athena.mit.edu
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA    USA
"Work. Worry. Consume. Die. It's a wonderful life." (Lippy)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Re: On the SUPERIOR Role of Women
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 16:53:24 +0300

On: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:39:50 GMT
david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann) replies to my article.

I am not convinced by his reply  but see no reason just to repeat what
I have said already originally.  I only wish to comment on a couple of
points in David's reply skipping the rest:


>In article <199208301444.AA08904@das.wang.com> MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (M
>>                        Any woman, also every  child bearing *gentile*
>>woman, is closer to God's acts than not just Moses, the Ba'al Shem Tov
>>but even  lehavdil the  present Lubavicher Rebbe  and the  Mashiah (in
>>case this is  not a repetition of a previously  mentioned person), all
>>just males and thus further from God.
>>
>Ignoring Michael's uncharacteristic rancor: one does not say
>"lehavdil" about Jews. Whatever one's level of observance, the
>commonality of being Jewish transcends differences.

Ignoring the  partial compliment  David pays me,  I wonder  from where
David got to state that one does  not say lehavdil about Jews (BTW let
it be the worst of my sins...).   If I have not missed anything on the
news  the  Lubavicher   Rebbe  is  still  alive   (till  120!),  while
unfortunately  the Ba'al  Shem  Tov is  not.  I  once  learned to  say
lehavdil when  one mentions  a living  person after  a person  who had
died.  Am I wrong EVEN ON THAT?

I skip now to the end of Davids article.

>This controversy is, imho, passe, arousing the ire of many except the
>thousands of well-educated, secularly involved observant women.

(This was  about the different blessing  males and females say  in the
morning).  Does it  mean that it is liked by  all "well educated etc."
women? Or  by definition  a woman  who is  upset by  it is  either not
properly observant and/or not well-educated etc.?

>One does not have to agree with a prayer's formulation; one should,
>however, give at least the leaders credit for understanding the
>problems, if there are any, and having an answer.

By this  kind of argument, there  is nothing left.  One  simply has to
give  "the leaders"  credit that  everything they  do is  correct.  OK
blind acceptance,  but so what is  the point in having  discussions on
scj? And what should  those do who do not have  such absolute faith in
the wisdom of the "leaders"? Ever heard about three year old Avram who
refused to accept that "daddy knows best"?

>David Kaufmann

 Michael Shimshoni
From: gt6390a@prism.gatech.EDU (BERNSTEIN,AVRON P)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Crowley's Signifigance
Keywords: SS, enlightenment(?)
Date: 30 Aug 92 07:04:30 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


Ahhh.  So Crowley's disciples, that personal trainees, were high-ranking
Nazis.  I did not know that.  The swastika was in use LONG before the Nazis
tainted it.  Just because Crowley used it doesn't mean he was saying," Hey
Hitler and all you would be anti-Semites, use this for your symbol, and go
out and kill lots of Jews!!"  That bit about the SS being interested in
"enlightening" each other, so should we name Adam Weishaupt as the greatest
anti-Semite who ever lived?!  That's it, he's the one responsible for all this
mess, Holocaust, anti-Semitism, etc.  Just exactly how often is Crowley
referred to in Mein Kamf?  How often was he cited in Alfred Rosenberg's party
ideology writings?  How often did Goebbels quote him?  Note that the Nazi's
quoted Nostradamus too, so even if Crowley was a prominent citee of them, it
still doesn't mean he was fully in line with their beliefs.  Be careful how
you use the word disciple.  Disciple does not equal reader of.
-- 
BERNSTEIN,AVRON P
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt6390a
Internet: gt6390a@prism.gatech.edu
From: goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On Qadish
Date: 3 Sep 92 20:00:19 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology

stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips) writes:

>I've just returned from a visit to Schenectady N.Y. and the Rabbi of
>the Orthodox Shul (Congegation Beth Israel) told me that he was asked
>by his members to say Kaddish if no-one else was saying it. He balked
>at this as, Boruch Hashem, both his parents are still alive, and one
>should not say Kaddish in such circumstances without one's parents'
>express permission.

>BTW, the Art Scroll Siddur quotes the Halochoh that someone should
>say Kaddish after Oleinu, even if there are no Aveilim.

GREAT, now it begins to be really interesting.
1-Have you any way to ask the Beth Israel Rabbi in Schenectady where his
statement is taken from? I am **NOT** asking ironically but very seriously,
we begin to reach the root of the issue. 
2-About the Art Scroll Siddur, same question. Is there any reference to the
Halachah which you quote? What is the source?

Again, I really wish to LEARN, no biting in my questions.
And of course if anybody else knows answers to that, PLEASE share them.

Yaaqov Goldberg
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Not a Charm?
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:32:18 GMT

In article <1751@ceylon.gte.com> sgutfreund@gte.com writes:
>In article <199209031317.AA19276@das.wang.com>, MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
>|> [Question about mezuzah as charm or amulet.] 
>
>Look at the Rashi on Parshat Hukat (Bamidbar 21:8). There it
>talks about the plague of serpents that HaShem sent against
>the Jews for their Lashon Hara. Moshe is told to build a serpent
>(of brass) place it on a pole, and if the person was bit, he
>should look at it and live.
>
>Rashi:
>
>The Rabbeim asked: "and is it the serpent that kills or causes to
>live"?  rather it is that when the Jews look towards Heaven and
>subjugate their hearts to their Father in Heaven, they will
>be healed and if not ...
>
   Nevertheless, the brass serpent was destroyed by a later king
   when it was becoming an object of idol worship. We, who are
   not on the same level as first temple B'nei Yisrael, should be
   enjoined by our present day shoftim from kissing the mezuza,
   because how much more so are we likely to venerate the mezuza
   itself.
>Ultimately, one has to look beyond the mere physical mechanical
>properties of the world. It is not merely physical natural property
>of snake venom to kill. It is ultimately the will of G-d that it
>have that effect. If He does not wish snake venom to kill,
>it would not have any effect. 
>
>There is a story about R. Channinah's (I believe) daughter. Who
>accidently bought vinegar instead of oil for the Shabbas candles.
>Her father told here not to worry, the same G-d who commanded
>oil to burn can also command vinegar to burn. And this is
>exactly what occured for them that Shabbos.
  Until I hear "kotrot laila" I'm going to be in unresolved tension.
  :-)
>
>Just as the cause and the healing from the snake wounds are ultimately
>not physical categorical necessities, but ultimately brought about by
>the will of G-d, so too are the accidents of the world and the power
>of the mezzuzah to protect one from them. The mezzuzah is not an amulet
>endowed with magical properties. Nor do accidents and unfortunate
>occurances happen serendipidously (Contrary to anything that Kushner
>might have said in "Why do bad things happen to good people"). All is
>ultimately in the hands of G-d.
  One can make the same argument about everything. I, for one, am
  eating a tunafish sandwich at the moment in order to protect my
  house and myself from accidents.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish