From: prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Dark Future for Professional Services in TN?
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:04:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: coe.1992Aug18.180458.2480
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, MSU, Bozeman Mt 59717

In article <l8tl3tINN14m@bathtub.cs.utexas.edu> raman@cs.utexas.edu (Raman Rajagopalan) writes:
>
>I have scanned a few of the articles in this newsgroup, and have observed
>that there are vocal representatives of both the "forward" and "backward"
>classes from Tamil Nadu on the net.  So, perhaps we can examine the
>following topic from several points of view:
>
>I am quite concerned about the nature of the present day reservation
>system for admission to colleges in Tamil Nadu, and in particular, am
>concerned about the quality of the graduates.  I fear that if the present
>system continues, with more regard for one's class than one's academic
>merit, then the quality of professionals such as doctors and engineers
>will drop dramitically over the next ten or twenty years as the 
>professionals who qualified through merit retire and those who gained
>degress through bribery or through quotas become the majority of employed
>prefessionals.

I disagree with this observation. One instance I can show you regarding this is
"The cut-off marks for the backward classes has been increasing and in the
recent years the open competition cut-off and BC cut-off is separated by two
marks or so. The trend is the same with the scheduled caste also."

So I conclude that the "academic gap" between the FC, BC and SC/ST is decreasing
and the standard of the people entering the professional collleges is in no way
going down. All we have is more and more BCs and SC/STs giving more competition
The very fact how the cut-off marks converge proves that reservations have had
a positive effect on the BCs and SC/STs. While it is true that some qualified 
people from FC may be at a disadvantage but overall the standard is not going 
down.

>
>I present a rambling of observations below, and invite responses from
>those who support the present-day quota system and those who do not.
>
>------------------------------------------------
>
>A smattering of observations:
>  
>  I have observed that it is quite difficult for upper caste persons 
>  to enter colleges in TN due to the high percentage of reservations for
>  backward classes.  Example:  I have a relative who scored 98% in
>  12th board exams, and failed to secure a medical or engineering seat.

That person must have done badly in the entrance exam and hence lost his/her 
chance. Because if he/she secured 98% then it equates to 196/200 in MPC and 
a 35-40/50 in the entrance exam must have ensured a place in govt. colleges.
[All are my assumptions based on my experience and observations]

>  After clearing a medical seat interview, we learned later that the seat
>  was "bought" by some other party for an unknown number of lakhs of rupees.

This is totally a different ball game. Money and reservations are mixed here and
such arguments are not justified since you started this discussion based only
on reservations. 

>  Similarly, any engineering seat "cost" more than the family would pay.
>  The main point here is that there was little value attached to merit, and
>  I conjecture that the person who bought the seat was less academically
>  qualified.
>
>  The result is that many "more academically qualified" persons are not able
>  pursue higher degrees in "demand" fields and thus are not able to 
>  contribute in the most effective manner to society.  More importantly,
>  with the marks required of "backward" class members to gain seats, there
>  is very much the danger that an underqualified person may "earn" such
>  degrees as MBBS, BE, etc.  

Once again your observations are not true. It is true that "always SOME 
academically qualified persons are not able to pursue higher degress" but it
is not "more academically qualified persons". It is possible with the 
reservations policy that one Mr. X with more marks from FC may fail to get a 
seat in a particular college whereas Mr. Y with lesser marks may do so. But 
this is not proof that qualified people do not get seats. I will try to explain:
BC people do not get seats just becuase they are BC. They get seats becuase they
have good marks. But the competition itself is not open to all and they compete
against BCs. This system may be critisized if BCs with far lower marks get seats
while FCs don't. But as I have pointed out earlier the gap is not much and the 
gap may soon be gone. 

>Further, I conjecture that the marks required
>  of the backward classes for admission to colleges and jobs later on
>  are low enough (40%?) to extinguish any motivation to work hard and really
>  learn (i.e., why work when the govt. promises you a free ride?).

Yeah conjecture right. But wrong. Anything less than 90% and the chance that a
BC will get a seat in a reputed college is very remote.So your other observation
that it will extinguish motivation is not true.

>
>Hypothesis and followup question:
>
>  It is my belief, that the present quota systems are counterproductive
>  for the prosperity of the state.  While small percentages, or special
>  financial support for backward groups (as in the US), may be acceptable,
>  the percentages in TN seem to be high enough to weed out a significant
>  number of highly motivated and academically qualified individuals in
>  favor of less qualified and less motivated individuals.

In the light of my observations I conclude the reservations are NOT counter
productive and highly motivated and academically qualified individuals are NOT
favoured over less qualified and less motivated individuals. But I think the
percentages need to be reviewed and corrected.

>
>  In the worst case, the result will be dramatic reduction in the quality
>  of professional services as the merit-based professionals of the previous 
>  generation retire and as the quota and bribe based professionals become
>  the majority.  This applies both to academicians as well as professionals
>  in the field (doctors, engineers, etc.).

It has not happened and it will not happen. But I am opposed to "buying" seats
by rich people and powerful people "securing" seats with malpactice.

>
>  This is a scary thought.  Thinking strictly about academic merit, I would
>  be quite wary if a doctor attending to me in a hospital in Madras 
>  belonged to the "backward" group... It would be quite difficult to 
>  distinguish those who "earned" their degree from those who got a 
>  "free ride", especially if I did not know anything about medicine.

The same thing applies to a FC doctor with whom you will be concerned because
you wouldn't know if he/she deservedly earned his/her degree or if he/she
bought it or got it by influence.[This is just an instance to show that it is
quite possible for a FC to get a degree through power and money].


>
>  I invite comments, facts, and figures to either support my hypothesis,
>  or to calm my fears.

You have got them now. So calm your fears but don't suppress your doubts.

>
>  Also, for those who support the quota systems:  how would you feel
>  about being operated on by a "quota" doctor (when you do not have access
>  to the doctor's marks sheet), or about having the wiring in your house
>  being designed by an "quota" engineer?  

All I would worry about is the end result: IS HE/SHE CAPABLE OF DOING IT ?
As everbody knows all who get good marks are not good when it comes to practice.

>Before I get flames in return,
>  I will add that it is my hypothesis that only a small minority of those
>  who get in via the quota systems will be down-trodden, hard-working,
>  want-to-come-up-in-life persons.  I believe a majority of the students
>  will be in for the free ride.  The key word is hard-working.

Nope. Not true. 

>  
>- raman rajagopalan
>
>


Sincerely yours,
M.P.Premkumar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian