HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Veils, etc.
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:40:41 GMT
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Douglas,

Yes the present system is unfair to the poor, the minorities and
sometimes to women too....  I think the discrimination results
from the Peer Jury system....  I think factors such as race, culture,
expertise should be considered in selecting the Jury pool....Because
it is not, the defense (particularly those who can afford it) is intent
on finding a jury that can be swayed by external factors....and then
finding the means (expensive "experts") to sway them.....

I used to work as an investigator for fraud in social programs a long
time ago.... our job was to develop cases and pass them on to the
Dustrict attorneys office.... Pretty soon we realised that cases against
those who cannot afford a lawyer and lawyers were appointed by the court
would ne taken to prosecution...often, there would be plea bargaining or
guilty pleas... If the guilty person could afford a good lawyer, the cases
would be dropped.  The young assistant PA's did not have confidence, did
not want to lose a case and would find some excuse to drop it...  Quite
soon, we the investigators did not even bother investigating those who
were cheating... we would let them know we are onto them and ho
and hope they would stop the cheating....

This last does not have anything to do with juries...just an example of
one of the flaws of the system....taking it to a higher level, its no
contest when a Harvard educated lawyer at $1000 per hour and lots or
resources goes against a poor prosecuting attorney in front of a
group of laymen.....

The average person is buying lemons all the time...whether its a
fine and convincing lawyer backed up by experts or a smooth talking
used car dealer or someone selling unneeded insurance.... the fact is
that people not knowledgeable in a subject do not make decisions from
learning about the subject but by who is selling them the item....

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 12:11:42 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Guns and syringes

OKay..let's say we ban weapons....okay let's see we will have to ban:
guns
tanks
airplanes
bombs
dynamite
knives
bows and arrows
nuclear waste
bee bee guns
blow torches
axes
spears
shears
grenades
any explosive material (EEk..alot of that stuff around)...
hmm.. a kite could be one if you tie a bomb to it ... I guess

Where do we draw the line...the biggest weapons..the weapons that do
the most damage...? and then what? How do we insure the other side
doesn't get those weapons? HMMM....?

It's easy to say disarm but then what...lie vulnerable hoping that the
enemy is really a wonderful guy underneath it all?

/EMmy
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 12:00:48 MEZ
From:         Uwe <UWEHAUCK@DOSUNI1.RZ.UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE>
Subject:      Re: re : right wing violence

Thanx Klaus, I just wanted to keep people up to date with what is
going on in Germany politically. In my own opinion there is no good in
being able to lay off workers that support right wing violence.
As long as these people do not realize that this support is wrong
there will be no good in laying them off (Maybe there might just
arise new agression by doing so !) You hit the point
on that topic and again we realize. There should something be done,
but what ?
Uwe
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 12:16:53 CET
From:         Klaus Kursawe <NDB035@NOV.HB.SE>
Subject:      RE : Net_Problems

Ruth,

>>I have a few problems with my network (my last message came back 2 times -
>>the reason was "%MAIL-E-OPENOUT, error opening USR1:[MARQUE]MAIL.MAI; as
>>output -SYSTEM-F-IVDEVNAM, invalid device name!")

>That's a system error, not a network one.  Your system didn't like something
>you were trying to feed it, and promptly spat it back out.  Your systems
>people should know what it means, and if not - that's what the manuals are
>for.:-)  What it looks like is that your VAX couldn't find your mail file,
>or something of that nature.

>>till I got my message back with that error-message. Somehow the network
>>doesn't like me).
>That's what VAXen are for - irritating the users.:-)

Maybe its a system error, but not on my system:
1) If it would be an internal problem, why did it take 2 days until I got
   my mail back (our computers are slow, but not this slow)
2) VAX ? What VAX ? The most powerful computer involved to my mail is a 486,
   :-<  and nobody dares to dream from a VAX !
   Marque is somewhere on bitnet (marque@pvc.bitnet) and has nothing to
   do with this university !

But it worked the third time, so lets use the old IBM/Microsoft-tactic:
Ignore the error, maybe it will go away... ;-)

That's now enough to this subject (I don't thing that this list is the
right place to start a big technical discussion :-) - if you don't hear
anything from me in the future, you at least know why ...

/Klaus
NDB035@NOV.HB.SE
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 10:19:02 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: RE : RE : Ethics

Klaus,

If we can ban the growing of cocoa leaves or marijuana, we can ban the
building of factories producing hand guns, automatic weapons, mortars and
so on.... if we can send some one to jail for 10 years for selling a couple
of ounces of marijuana, we can jail someone for 10 years for selling
ammunition for weapons designed to kill human beings....

We have to start somewhere.....

zahir
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 17:02:00 EDT
From:         "ISTA ISTA ISHATARRO MUNDI" <RAFTER@UTKVX.BITNET>
Subject:      Guns and syringes

Emmy,

(cheers) Great example -- it's time for people to take responsibility for their
own actions. The "evil doings" rest exclusively on those who buy and use the
weapon or gun.... and in the case of children, on the parents. It's not the
intented purpose at the time of invention that matters... it's the intention at
the time of use.

Brian
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:34:49 EST
From:         Argyria Kehagias <AKEHAGIA@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rape

Alcino.
       I am not talking about looks and talk. I am talking about actual
touching. Not comments made. I am talking about, violent, or emotionall
attacks.
            Argyria
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:52:26 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Zahir...
I believe there is a strong magnetic field in this society e
which pulls everyone in...

Ahmed
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:58:00 CST
From:         "KRISTA L. BENNETT" <KLBHO@CANAL.CRC.UNO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Dogma's Iron Cage

Chelagoi--
     I'm afraid I'm guilty of making a generalization that I didn't
mean to make in the interest of making a point. I am well aware that
religion is more than hope in times of trouble, the afterlife, etc...
I'm afraid it may have sounded like I was trying to give a general
definition of the "religious experience", which I was not. I was
simply bringing up examples that have struck me in my experience.
I certainly would not assume to put concrete definitions (especially
ones so limited!!!!) on something I don't really understand. Sorry
if I gave that impression!
--------------------Krista
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:04:07 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      RE: open

Thank you for answering my question..but how do these things arise..or
where is the starting point...for these bad things...

Ahmed
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 10:34:54 -0700
From:         4FMH018@MC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: A woman as President

Ahmed,
like you said everyone should respect women. Think about it.
Beatriz
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:12:32 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Guns and syringes

Well, in smaller towns, I think people are less likely to kill because
they knew more of the people around...

I think our media, our occupation with violent movies may contribute
somewhat to the violence, as well as the poverty and drug problem...

I see your point- the difference between those weapons creatd for other
purposes other than killing...

But my point is, we can't turn back..there has to be a more creative
solution that what you offer....

/Emmy
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: RE: open
Date: 11 Nov 1992 05:38:12 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU () says:

>Ruth...
>  I have another question...where do these bad things originate from...and
>People dancing Topless why don't they feel ashamed...and realize that they
>are degrading themselve probably to a level at which a Cat would feel shy
I have no idea where it all really comes from.  Some women do feel ashamed,
but there isn't much else they feel they can do.  Some topless dancers are
also prostitutes.  btw - I've seen cats embaressed, but never ashamed.:-)

>to see. them.....Don't they have any sense....I am not saying about topless
>but may be bars where there is nude dancing.....who know's there might be
>places even worse....
>
There probably are worse places.  Some people would say topless dancing is
more respectable a profession than politics.:-)  
>
>p.s I have never being in a night club or a bar in my life.....
I've been in a few over the years.  You're not missing much....

-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: RE:New list EVANGE-L
Date: 6 Nov 92 06:09:57 GMT
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Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, chowning@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU (Richard Chowning) says:

>> * be intolerant of others' views
>
>Worldview and religion are almost if not totally inseperable from religion,
For most people, they're so mixed it's impossible to tell where one starts
and the other stops.  Some people try to separate gut reactions from reason,
which never works either.  Each influences the other to the point that
at least 90% blended.  If they're not, you're looking at someone who's
going to be switching worldviews or religions fairly soon.:-)

>if one has a relgion.  Therefore, this discussion is important to
>cross-cultural communication to which this list is dedicated.  Sure, I
>agree, it should not turn into a battle for conversion or change, just
>understanding.
Here here.  Battles royal over religious topics have reared their ugly heads
in here before.  A person stating deeply held religious views shouldn't be
belittled for them, no matter how wrong those ideas may seem to someone else.
Debate, please, flamewar, no way; if anyone starts that crap up again I'm
out of here.  Chelagoi, I want discussion too, but if it turns into something
else, this is one Christian who's going to keep her mouth shut and get out.
I've had to act as fire extinguisher once too often lately.  I'm burned out.

>
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 17:27:00 EDT
From:         "ISTA ISTA ISHATARRO MUNDI" <RAFTER@UTKVX.BITNET>
Subject:      Tolerance (& Emmy's kindness)

Emmy,

        You're too kind... thanks for your generous compliments. I'm only
trying to say what I feel/think, which is almost impossible to do, especially
when I can only type so fast.
        About tolerance: I couldn't agree more. I'm not rejecting all religions
by any means (I've spent too much time studying them to do that!). Instead I'm
rejecting their claims to ultimate truth. Certainly all religions can provide
insight into life, existence, etc... that's the beauty of it. EVERY worldview
and belief system is as valid as any other. I'm only trying to describe mine.

Brian
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 09:34:07 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Judgement by peers

Nora,

Conviction rates, length of sentences, and a whole lot of other
statistics are available to any criminology major or interested
person that shows the racial and economic discrimination that is
resulting from our criminal justice system......

Chances of gaining an acquital or a light sentence can be predicted
on the amount of wealth, gender, and race......

Chances of winning an election can also be predicted...though wealth
is a more major factor there.....

If length of sentencing for burglary, for instance, was based on the
amount of money stolen, there would be a hell of a lot of white males,
white collared, in jail then currently serving....  A Charles keating
or one of those convicted junk bond magnates got smaller sentences for
stealing millions of dollars than some black men for holding up a
drug store for $25....

zahir
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:39:32 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: open

Ahmed,

You seem to come from a culture and/or religion that presumes that all
men are bad and need guidance..... and in some cases, control.....

From this premise follows reasonings that say Women should cover
themselves so men can keep from temptation, that pornography is looking
at...or rather nude pictures in Playboy magazine....that women get raped
because of the clothes they wear...and so on......

Its difficult to convince some of us from this culture who want to decide
for themselves where to go and where not to and dislike the idea of
religious or government controls.....

Yes there are things wrong within this society....but then there are things
that are wrong in every country...... There is an excellent book from a
writer named V. S. Naipaul called "Among the Believers: an Islamic Journey",
a trip he took through Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia and Indonesia.... has some
excellent insights....

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:55:01 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Glorious Freedom from the Will to Truth

Brian,

I most ways I agree with you.... I envy you your ability to express it
so well.... the wonderful way to look at religions and your own enjoyment
in pursuit of the wonderful TRUTHS (plural).... However, that is right for you b
   ut you seem to be
be advocating a religion too.....

Zahir
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 17:16:29 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Guns and syringes

Brian:

Thank you.../ Emmy
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:49:00 MST
From:         Clarke Whitehead <TSCWHITEHEAD@CC.WEBER.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

Dougl,
I am new on the list.  Your recent messages struck a point of interest for
me.

>[stuff deleted]
>That is, is the 'sale' of sex in itself demeaning???

I was married to a woman who (during the marriage) decided to become
an exotic dancer.  In the process I got an in depth look at the culture.
I believe that she, and may who enter such a profession, do so partly as
a result of low self esteem.  I don't believe that the 'sex industry'
itself demeans those involved.  Rather, I tend to believe that it is a
symptom of people who believe that the best they have to offer is their
sexuality.  Most of the women I knew in this field, received the
approval and acceptance they were looking for.  Their biggest complaint
was the type of men they had to deal with in their business.  My (then)
wife was a very intelligent and capable person, however, as a result of
sexual abuse as a child, her only sense of self-worth was in respect to
her sexuality.  I had hoped that the dancing would give her the confidence
she needed in other areas of her life, but it only amplified her
dependence on sex as a tool to get what she wanted.

Clarke Whitehead
TSCWHITEHEAD@CC.WEBER.EDU
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:18:38 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Douglas,

I suppose you can afford it and so judgement by ones peers is alright...

My contention is that there has to be more qualifications than just
voter registration and drivers license...

When two doctors give you different opinions on a technical operation,
do you then assemble a group of your peers, have them present the
argument and take whatever action your peers recommend?  I would go
to more doctors myself....

I have shown the video tape and asked the question of numerous people in the
business of restraining unarmed people..... I happened to have been a
male oderly in a mental institution where we had to restrain some
incredibly violent patients, drunks and drug addists also...a long time
ago... talked to local cops here in Ohio, know a few others who work as
bouncers at a local watering hole, talked to ambulance attendents who
have witnessed restraining procedures and so on...  THEY KNOW WHAT IT
TAKES TO SUBDUE SOMEONE... and they would all have indicated that they
have never seen and would be embarassed at the claim that it takes
21 police officers, 56 blows in 81 seconds, taser guns and so on to
subdue Rodney King... they would have convicted the officers in very
short time....

Its like our elections...you get so many confusing issues brought in
that the voter...just like the jurist... seldon votes on the issues
and in the end the ones with the money always win....Be it rich people
in court or rich candidates....

Its a cop out to say that only those people totally ignorant of the
complexities of a case, be it assaults or junk bonds, can make a fair
decision...

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:19:17 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      RE: Prostitutes and Self Respect

Douglas...

i don't get your question copuld please elabirate it..
Ahmed
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:56:46 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Canned Robots

Zahir:

Almost, anything could qualify as a weapon...it's just the way you look
at it...

I see what you are saying... why make an atomic bomb? why would someone
make such a thing is they knew it could be used to blow up some
community?

But, we can't escape the fact that we are not a united world, that
there is hate amongst peoples, and to some extent protection is the
only answer until something better comes along, like common sense :).
And perhaps, it's kind of devious to create a bomb, but from the
perspective of the people who could be saved , it is a protectant, and
to those who could be potentially bombed, it is a BOMB!...

But unfortunately, I don't see an end to the cycle...

/Emmy
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:32:10 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Emmy...
 the majority of rapes occuring on campus are "date-rape" as said by
Zahir...in which suituation is entirely different....

Ahmed
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:52:18 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: rape

Marcos:

I have a very close friend in Brazil and I can't wait to visit Brazil
because I know it is a country rich in culture and history, however, I
don't think you can say there is no rape there... that because little
clothing is a norm that that prevents crimes against women.. rape is a
violent crime of sexual intrusion upon man or woman/ adult of child..
and I'm sure that there are many loving families in BRazil...but there
is also a "down" side there too... there are broken families and
crime..  With other crimes like robbery at a high rate, I think sexual
crimes may be "on the back burner" / not reported much because of the
stigma attached to raped women and the other societal probelms.. I do
know that Brazil is a very strong Catholic country... has one of the
highest populations of Catholics so the stigma may be very high...

I think no matter what the country, we have to open our eyes to the
fact that this type of crime occurs everywhere because the motives are
psychological , capable of being in any human, not necessarily a factor
of the environment....

P.S. I did like your list of songs....

/Emmy