Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Waiting for Forgach - What about Numbers 5???
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:25:13 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.
Summary: will Suzanne respond to this challenge??


I posted this last week, and Suzanne has ignored it.  I'd sure like to know
what she thinks...or perhaps she has realized her error and accepts what
I've written here....if she doesn't, then we can well assume that she has
conceded the point.

The old Message-ID: <1992Aug4.133320.31727@spss.com>

OK, I decided to get together all of the versions of the Bible that I
have, plus study notes, etc.  I was accused by Suzanne F. of misrepresenting 
the text.  So here goes.   Note specifically the NRSV translation!  I'll be
expecting an apology from Suzanne...but I won't hold my breath.

This article contains quotations from the following Bibles:

NIV  : New International Version Study Bible (Zondervan Publishing)
NRSV : The New Oxford Annotated Bible, New Revised Standard Version (Oxford
       University Press)
KJV  : King James Version (Cambridge University Press)
NASB : Ryrie New American Standard Study Bible (Moody Press)


Text Notes are commentary on alternate translations, differing authorities
or unclear verses.  They represent scholarly opinion of alternate readings.

Study Notes are the opinion of the author as to the meaning, message,
symbolism and apllication of the verses.  They are certainly colored by
the authors own biases.

The following are from Numbers 5

KJV:
---

    "(27)And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come
     to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done tresspass against her
     husband, the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and
     become bitter, and her belly shall swell and her thigh shall rot: and
     the woman shall be a curse among her people.  (28)And if the woman
     be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall
     conceive seed."

NIV:
---

   "(27)If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband,
    then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it 
    will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell
    and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her
    people.  (28)If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is
    free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to
    have children."

NIV Text Notes: 

    (27)OR...suffering; she will have barrenness and a miscarrying womb

NIV Study Notes:

    5:21 The figurative language here (and in vv. 22,27) speaks of the 
    loss of the capacity for childbearing (AND, IF PREGNANT, THE MISCARRIAGE
    OF THE CHILD).  This is demonstrated by the determination of the fate of
    a woman wrongly charged (v 28).  For a woman in the Near East to be 
    denied the ability to bear children was a personal loss of inestimable 
    proportions.  Since it was in the bearing of children that the woman's 
    worth was realized in the ancient world, this was a grievous punishment 
    indeed.

[Emphesis mine]


NRSV:
----

    "(27)When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled
     herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings
     the curse shall enter into her and shall cause bitter pain, and HER
     WOMB SHALL DISCHARGE, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become
     an excretion among her people.  (28)But if the woman has not defiled
     herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive
     children."

[Emphesis mine]

NRSV Study Notes:

     5:23-28 The oath is folloed by the drinking of the 'water that brings
     the curse (v18).  It was believed that if a person were guilty this
     potion would have effects which would signify the Lord's verdict of
     judgement (Ex32:20,35).


NASB:
----

    "(27)When he has made her drink the water, then it shall come about, if
     she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, that
     the water which brings a curse shall go into her and cause bitterness,
     and her abdomen will swell and her thigh will waste away, and the
     woman will become a curse among her people.  (28)But if the woman
     has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free and
     conceive children."

NASB Study Notes:

     5:11-31  These verses describe the "law of jealousy," whereby a woman
     suspected of marital unfaithfulness had to be brought to the priest
     for trial before the Lord (v16), who alone could reveal the truth of
     the matter.  The ritual of verse 23 symbolically transferred the
     written words of the curse to the water.  Verse 27 MAY INDICATE A
     MISCARRIAGE ('waste away' literall means 'fall'; see Job 3:16, where
     a similar Hebrew word refers to untimely birth).  The practice here
     prescribed, apparantly used only in the wilderness, prevented
     jealousy and suspicion from corrupting family and community life.
     God must have miraculously controlled the results whenever this test
     was used.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, we have various translations that use generally the same language.  It
appears that ALL of the translations agree generally, and that the 3 modern 
translations all agree as to the MEANING of the text.  The NRSV actually
puts the direct meaning into the main text, the NIV puts it as a Text Note,
as an alternate translation, and the NASB notes this in the Study Notes.

Although some may claim that the NRSV is a 'liberal' translation, the NIV
is most certainly not, nor is the NASB, especially since the notes are from
Dr. Charles Caldwell Ryrie, and is published by Moody Press.  For those who
don't know, Moody Bible Institute is VERY conservative, some would say
extremely so.

I don't have easy access to the Hebrew text, but these versions all seem to
give the same translation.  It is clear that at least in this situation,
God not only permits, but DIRECTLY CAUSES a miscarriage.  These verses
descrive an induced miscarraige.  There is not escaping this.

Note well that in addition to a miscarriage, the woman will no longer be
able to conceive...

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558