From: lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney)
Subject: Re: Malik Shabazz, Islam and Anti-Semitism (Re: Cultural leaders, cu
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 08:37:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Nov14.054808.9916@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Seventh Circuit Bound) writes:
Ted, your modesty knows no bounds.


>>This is not evidence of anti-semitism.  This is evidence that
>>Muslims, like the Cherokee and the Mohawks and the Creeks and
>>the peoples of southern Africa, don't like being expelled from their
>>land and act to regain their land.

>No one was expelled from their land.

Bullshit.  What do you call it when war refugees are not permitted to
return after a cease fire, and the land that they owned and lived on
for generations is now under the control of and occupied by others?

> The Palestinians *had* half of
>what is now Israel, but left to get out of the way of invading Arab
>armies whose intention it was to drive Jews (who had purchased any
>land they had legitimately, if at overinflated prices) into the sea.

This is a highly disputed account.  What is not disputed is that over
200 Arab villages in Israel were wiped off the map after 1948.  What
is not disputed is that the Zionists proposed to create a "Jewish
State" on land that was about 40% Arab before the war broke out.

If you think all the Arabs just left because they were waiting for the
Jews to be driven into the sea, I direct your attention to Benny
Morris, "The New Historiography: Israel Confronts Its Past", TIKKUN
(Nov./Dec. 1988).  Here is an excerpt:

"Operation Dani took place roughly midway through the first
Israeli-Arab war - the War of Independence, in offical Israeli
parlance.  The Arab states' invasion on May 15 of the fledgling state
had been halted weeks before; the newly organized and freshly equipped
Israel Defense Forces (IDF) were on the offenseive on all fronts - as
was to remain true for the remainder of the war.
	On July 12, before th shooting in Lydda had compledly died
down, Lt. Col. Yitzhak Rabin, officer n command for Operation Dani,
issued the following order: '1. The inhabitants of Lydda must be
expelled quickly without attentijon to age.  They should be directd
towaerd Beit Nabala.  Yiftah [Brigade HQ] mst determine the method and
inform [Operation] Dani HQ and Eighth Brigade HQ.  2. Implement
immediately..'  A similar order was issued at the same time to the
Kiryati Brigade concerning the inhabitatns of the neighboring Arab
town of Ramle."

Note that "Lydda" is now know as "Lod" and is the site of Ben-Gurion
Airport.  

>>Why were Algerians opposed to peace with France?  Why was Sitting
>>Bull opposed to peace with the U.S.?  Why is the ANC opposed to
>>peace with the regime ruling Southern Africa?

>As far as I'm aware the ANC isn't opposed to peace.

The ANC is opposed to a peace that doesn't result in a non-racial
democratic state.


>>Have I disputed the fact that Jews have lived in Palestine for
>>this time period?  What I said that most of the land conquered by
>>Israel in 1947-48 had been owned by non-Jews.  

>False.   

True.


>>These non-Jewish
>>owners of the land were dispossessed and their lands were distributed
>>to Jews who had recently arrived from Europe and others who were later
>>to arrive from all parts of the world.

>Also false.

Nope, true.


>More Jews were expelled from Arab lands than Palestinians from Israel.

Irrelevant.  This was a reaction to the creation of a self-declared
Jewish state on land occupied by a signficant perccentage of non-Jews.

>These expelled Jews ended up with the Palestinian land (the vast majority
>of which was abandoned voluntarily for the purpose of aiding Arabs in
>killing Jews.) The Arabs stuck the Palestinians in refugee camps to use
>as a political weapon.

The Arabs stuck in refugee camps are stuck there in large part because
Israel didn't allow them to return after the '48 war.  That Arabs
states have manipulated this for their own ends is clearly true, but
besides the point.


>It would have been preferable if no one had been expelled.

A mild understatement.

  This was
>possible all the way up to May 1948, but the Arabs refused any sort of
>compromise, and ended up with far less than they would have had if
>they hadn't been greedy and allowed the Jewish people already residing
>in Palestine to set up a government in three non-contiguous land areas
>about the size of Vermont.

The only problem with these three non-contiguous land areas is that
they were 40% Arab, and the Jews proposed to set up a state there that
existed primarily to benefit Jews.

>>Like voting in the U.S., voting in Israel is a privelege which
>>does not bring real benefits to minorities.  In the u.s., it's
>>African-Ams, while in Israel it is non-Jews.  

>Is that how Carol Moseley Braun got elected?  Is that how non-Jews
>get elected to the Knesset?  (There are more non-Jews in the Knesset
>than there are blacks in the US Senate.)

Again a meaningless statistic.  There are Arabs in the Israeli
parliament, but they are systematically exluded from any position
of authority.

Moreover, Israel has no civil rights legislation, and no bill of
rights.  Arabs are routinely discriminated against in government
policies (primarily in that they are excluded from the Army, and most
government benefits flow from military service), and are considered by
the national polity to be an embarrasing fact that they wish would go
away.  

92% of the land in Israel is reserved for the use of Jews.  Is this
just like the U.S. Ted?

-- 
larry kolodney:(lkk@panix.com) 
_(*#&)#*&%)@(*^%_!*&%^!)*&#+!*&$+!?&%+!*&^_)*&#%)*&^%#+&
The past is not dead, it's not even past.   - Wm. Faulkner