HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: awb7h@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Andrew William Bartelt)
Subject: Re: How to and concentration
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:28:02 GMT

I have been practicing TM for two years.

>Are there any TM instructors reading this newsgroup?
>If so maybe they could elaborate on the practice of TM and tell us why it has
>become "commercialized" as a previous post has suggested.  WHy isn't it offered
>free of charge.  Wouldn't it be a nice thing to offer to people on
>welfare, or AIDS patients, or women and men who have been victimized.
>WHat about prisonners and juvenile delinquents?

I think that everyone in the TM movement would love to teach everyone
for free, but as everyone knows money makes the world go round.  It
takes money to support the teachers and to provide the support to
teach people.  For example I can't imagine that teacking TM in prisons
to murders can be done in the same way that TM is taught to normal
people.

Also besides the money problem there are a lot of political problems
when it comes to teaching people in institutions.  I have heard that
it was taught in penal institutions in California, Vermont, and in an
African country.


>--
>Diane L. Calleson                     
>dc3i@virginia.edu

:-) Andrew




--
--
Andrew W. Bartelt           UVa: 325 Roberta Gwathmey
awb7h@virginia.edu               Station #1  
				 Charlottesville, VA  22904-0008
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com (Norman Kraft)
Subject: Re: How to and concentration
Organization: Argus Computing, San Diego, CA
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 16:02:21 GMT

In <1992Nov5.172802.20119@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> awb7h@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Andrew William Bartelt) writes:

>I have been practicing TM for two years.

>>Are there any TM instructors reading this newsgroup?
>>If so maybe they could elaborate on the practice of TM and tell us why it has
>>become "commercialized" as a previous post has suggested.  WHy isn't it offered
>>free of charge.  Wouldn't it be a nice thing to offer to people on
>>welfare, or AIDS patients, or women and men who have been victimized.
>>WHat about prisonners and juvenile delinquents?

>I think that everyone in the TM movement would love to teach everyone
>for free, but as everyone knows money makes the world go round.  It
>takes money to support the teachers and to provide the support to
>teach people.

Perhaps. Still, TM is filled with people not only covering costs but
doing a lot of profit making. Here in San Diego I run workshops and
classes on meditation (not the TM variety) and spirituality to the
AIDS/HIV community. I know what it costs to do this, since I do it all
out of my own pocket (free to the participants). I also know that the
$300+ charged for TM is a bit excessive. When I learned TM back in the
70's, it cost $50. 

As a TM instructor, is your goal to help others or to make a living as
a TM instructor. If it is the latter, I would feel that you're in the
wrong business. Has TM become just another commodity? If the high
prices for TM classes are to justify charity work among prison
populations and other disadvantaged people, why is this not mentioned
by the instructors asking such high fees? What is the mechanism for
this, and how might I know that money given to a TM instructor does
not go directly to the instructor's pocket (as I know most of it does)?

Norm.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Kraft, Senior Partner          INET : nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com
Argus Computing & Multimedia          UUCP : ucsd!crash!bkhouse!nkraft
San Diego, CA                         GENIE: N.KRAFT3
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: mw%ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Subject: Re: How to and concentration
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 18:36:36 GMT
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Eric Middlecamp (emiddlec@mora.gac.edu) replied to my article:
: >There is only the "current" experience. No way to escape it or find some
: >other.
: >When this is "seen" directly, you'll know of the "eternal now" of the
: >mystics
: >(and it will be clear that the "I" is a fiction of thinking, of time).
:
: Concentrating on the moment is seeing the "current" experience.
Of course - but not concentrating on the moment is still seeing the "current"
experience, since experience is always "current".
"Past" and "future" are ideas - useful for ordering experience, but
dangerous when confusing the maps with the territory.

: Concentrating on the moment is a way to reach the "eternal now."
Indirectly it can be a way to see it (though not as "I here" see "it there").
But it in fact it is not a matter of reaching or someone moving there.

Let's look at the famous metaphor that "the way is just under your feet".
It is completely impossible to run away from your feet.
Likewise it is absurd to try to run after your feet.
The way is always there, whether you run or not and wherever you are
(and of course "running vs. not running" is only a conceptual difference
 depending on the frame of reference - there's always movement).

When memory isn't recognized as being just another "current" experience,
there is the illusion of some stable "I", an unchanging "experiencer" which is
separate from the actual, always-changing experience.
Now this "image" of some "me inside" leads to the idea of getting something
"out of life", which is considered "outside". And then there's the big run ...

The "I" is just a kind of convulsion, like a hand trying to grasp itself -
it's impossible, a useless waste of energy.
When given up, the hand works freely.

Where does the fist go when the hand is opened?
What is a hand?
What is "it" when "it rains"?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Marc Wachowitz, mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de   /  news zombie - reply by e-mail, too
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: dc3i@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Diane L. Calleson)
Subject: Re: How to and concentration
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:17:36 GMT

Hello meditators and non-meditators, and those in between.

On How To Meditate and the difference between TM and ZEN meditation.

ZEN and many forms of meditation instruct the meditator to CONCENTRATE
and FOCUS on one-point, or some idea, thought, or sound.  In TM this is 
NOT the case.  In TM a mantra is used however the practicing meditator of
TM uses minimal effort, any trying on the part of the meditator is discouraged.

Thoughts, ideas, smells, sounds, distractions, are accepted.  

Someone, I forget who, spoke about the be-here-now ideology, the acceptance
of things as they are etc.  THis is a close approximation to what TM is in the
way it is practised.

I learned about TM in 1977, when Merv Griffen had Maharishi on his show.
My dad paid some unknown amount of $$ for the family  to learn TM.
At this time, the Veda-Vishy (sp? :) stuff wasn't in the picture.
I know very little about this aspect of the stuff.  TM to me is the meditation
technique itself, not herbal medicine etc.

All I know about TM is that is makes me feel peaceful and relaxed.  

I plan on continuing to use TM for this purpose.  It's easy for me to 
not worry about whether I am "getting my money's worth" because I didn't
pay for it. THis kind of thinking will often keep you from doing alot
of things that are good for you.  aLike joining a Gym for example, or going 
to college, or taking an aerobics course, or Yoga course, or a TM class.

If it were my choice I'd like to see all of the above be offered free of charge!

Are there any TM instructors reading this newsgroup?
If so maybe they could elaborate on the practice of TM and tell us why it has
become "commercialized" as a previous post has suggested.  WHy isn't it offered
free of charge.  Wouldn't it be a nice thing to offer to people on welfare, or 
AIDS patients, or women and men who have been victimized.  WHat about prisonners

and juvenile delinquents?

Is there anyone on this newsgroup who has contact with a TM teacher, who can 
answer these questions?




--
Diane L. Calleson                     
dc3i@virginia.edu
From: Tarzan
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Subject: Re: How do I meditate?
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:46:30 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research

In article <1t#q7sj+@aix01.rz.fht-mannheim.de> mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc
Wachowitz) writes:
>Da.......
>  Marc
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Marc Wachowitz, mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de   /  news zombie - reply by e-mail, too
>  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
>

Thanks Marc,               Tarzan.
From: mikenews@access.digex.com (Mike Doughney)
Subject: Re: a.m.t FAQ, last revised 10/31/92
Keywords: FAQ, meditation
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 08:29:48 GMT

In article <1992Nov01.011031.15099@microsoft.com> chriswe@microsoft.com (Chris Westin) writes:
>
>Jyotish
>-------
>Vedic Astrology.  Vedic astrology predicts possible future events, along with
>strategies for attracting or avoiding them.  Pandits (Vedic Astrologers) were
>specially selected from families in India where Jyotish was practiced over
>many generations.  Those were personally interviewed by Maharishi and trained
>in the special aspects of Maharishi Jyotish which takes into account the
>level of consciousness.  Traditional indian Jyotish is considered a diluted
>form of Maharishi Jyotish and lacks that capability.  Western Astrology is a
>further diluted version and might be too diluted to even predict events
>accurately.  It also lacks any remedial measures.

Ten years ago while on a residence course as a 'mere meditator', I
noted that those who had taken the advanced sidhi courses spent most
of the day locked in a large meeting room, and could not discuss what
they were taught, except that it was "Vedic" in nature.  I guess
they've now gone public with the juicy privileged stuff.

In the spirit of Geoff Coulson's suggestion that some rational 
discussion, and not mere skeptical flamage, should appear on this
newsgroup, would any of the meditators reading this care to come to
the defense (defence :-) of the above claims?

I should also note that the movement's claim of having a pure form of
something that was somehow diluted to the rest of the world is not
new, and I've heard it applied to TM many times.

>
>The Science of Creative Intelligence
>------------------------------------
>???
>
>

Interesting.  There was once a time when this was the core of the
movement's teaching other than the TM program itself, and it was
actually somewhat reasonable compared to some of the other things in 
this FAQ.  Chris, why isn't a description of it included here?

Mike
-- 
Mike Doughney              mike@access.digex.com               +1 301 220 2020
Digital Express Group Inc. -  6006 Greenbelt Road #228, Greenbelt MD USA 20770
Express Access Online Communications --------- Telnet, FTP, IRC available NOW.
Login as "new": Washington 301-220-0462 Baltimore 410-766-1855: info@digex.com
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: "Haydn Huntley" <huntley@gable.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: a.m.t FAQ, last revised 10/31/92
Keywords: FAQ, meditation
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 10:18:05 -0500

In article <1992Nov01.011031.15099@microsoft.com> chriswe@microsoft.com (Chris Westin) writes:
>
>Jyotish
>-------
>Vedic Astrology.  Vedic astrology predicts possible future events, along with
>strategies for attracting or avoiding them.  Pandits (Vedic Astrologers) were
>specially selected from families in India where Jyotish was practiced over
>many generations.  Those were personally interviewed by Maharishi and trained
>in the special aspects of Maharishi Jyotish which takes into account the
>level of consciousness.  Traditional indian Jyotish is considered a diluted
>form of Maharishi Jyotish and lacks that capability.  Western Astrology is a
>further diluted version and might be too diluted to even predict events
>accurately.  It also lacks any remedial measures.

Actually, there are other opinions on Jyotish and Astrology in general!  :-)

I've written one of the programs which people use for Jyotish, and in
the process of writing it and learning about Jyotish, I also learned
to have a good deal of respect for other kinds of Astrology.

Chris, how much do you know about Jyotish through first-hand
knowledge?  How much do you know about Astrology in general?

Attitudes like the above, that everything which isn't Maharishi-XYZ
are diluted and ineffective, are remarkably similiar to the attitudes
of some of the TM Movement's nastiest critics, who alledge all sorts
of nasty things which they have no experience of.

I recommend that you simply delete the last two sentences of the
description on Jyotish, beginning at "Traditional Indian Jyotish...".

Also, it might be good manners to apologize to anyone who has been
offended by what was said about non-Maharishi Jyotish and Astrology in
general.

--Haydn

-- 
*****************************************************
*  Haydn Huntley    huntley@silver.ucs.indiana.edu  *
*****************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: mds5142@ultb.isc.rit.edu (M.D. Shepherd)
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Subject: FAQ and stuff
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:13:00 GMT
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Originator: mds5142@ultb

Hi.  We just started getting this group at RIT.  Is there an FAQ for
this group?  I'd like to find out more about what transcendental
meditiation is all about.

Mike
-- 
Michael Shepherd ++ mds5142@ultb.isc.rit.edu ++ shepherd.wbst129@xerox.com
* From the pain come the dream, From the dream come the vision, From the *
* vision come the people, And from the people come the power, From this  *
* power come the change.  - P. Gabriel                                   *
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Subject: Re: How to and concentration
From: emiddlec@mora.gac.edu (Eric Middlecamp)
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:55:53 -0600

In article <_qaqjjh_@aix01.rz.fht-mannheim.de>  writes:
>Eric Middlecamp (emiddlec@mora.gac.edu) replied to my article:
>: >There is only the "current" experience. No way to escape it or find some
>: >other.
>: >When this is "seen" directly, you'll know of the "eternal now" of the
>: >mystics
>: >(and it will be clear that the "I" is a fiction of thinking, of time).
>:
>: Concentrating on the moment is seeing the "current" experience.
>Of course - but not concentrating on the moment is still seeing the "current"
>experience, since experience is always "current".

Yes and no. The picture is really fuzzy.

>"Past" and "future" are ideas - useful for ordering experience, but
>dangerous when confusing the maps with the territory.
>
>: Concentrating on the moment is a way to reach the "eternal now."
>Indirectly it can be a way to see it (though not as "I here" see "it there").
>But it in fact it is not a matter of reaching or someone moving there.

I think we agree.

>Let's look at the famous metaphor that "the way is just under your feet".
>...
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: mw%ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Subject: Re: How to and concentration
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 18:18:01 GMT
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Diane L. Calleson (dc3i@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU) wrote:
: ZEN and many forms of meditation instruct the meditator to CONCENTRATE
: and FOCUS on one-point, or some idea, thought, or sound.  In TM this is 
: NOT the case.  In TM a mantra is used however the practicing meditator of
: TM uses minimal effort, any trying on the part of the meditator is
: discouraged.
: 
: Thoughts, ideas, smells, sounds, distractions, are accepted.  
There are many forms of Zen, and some indeed encourage concentration (sigh).
The previously recommended books are not of this type (and particularly
"Everyday Zen" has very few traditional formalisms or ideology).

: Someone, I forget who, spoke about the be-here-now ideology, the acceptance
: of things as they are etc.  THis is a close approximation to what TM is in
: the way it is practised.
The "pop ideology" of "be here and now" is mostly a popularization.
Some people understand this either as acting carelessly or as trying
to "concentrate on the moment". Both completely misses the point.
The former is quite likely to create problems, and the latter is simply a
misunderstanding of the situation.
There is only the "current" experience. No way to escape it or find some other.
When this is "seen" directly, you'll know of the "eternal now" of the mystics
(and it will be clear that the "I" is a fiction of thinking, of time).

Best wishes,

  Marc

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Marc Wachowitz, mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de   /  news zombie - reply by e-mail, too
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: mw%ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Subject: Re: How do I meditate?
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 18:01:59 GMT
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Lorenzo Farris (farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu) comments on my previous article:
: Sorry Marc, it seems your post had little to do with his question
: either :-)
Ha, I was almost sure such a reply would come (btw, not all books/quotes
presented had to do with Zen, nor do I consider myself a Zen-Buddhist).
Sometimes people like to make things complicated. That's not necessary.
Why buy yet another kind of clothes when you want to know your naked nature?

: Marc presents many ideas about the goal of having no goal. (Zen is
: full of paradoxes like this.)
The "paradox" is only in the ideas.
You don't need to make "having no goal" a goal, that's just what many people
do (have you ever _tried_ to be spontaneous?)

: To give a more concrete recommendation on getting into meditation:
You may not believe it, but what I "proposed" is very practical.

: The basic idea is to develop focus.
No agreement between us here. Focus, concentration, means excluding something
from your awareness. It can work after a long time, but it has risks and needs
much more effort than necessary. Maybe you need the feeling of having done
something for it, though :-)

: In both these cases, it is recommended that you find some sitting
: position in which your back is straight.
Sitting is not strictly important, but a straight back and the ability to
relax (not sleep) is ceartainly beneficial.

: It will indeed become an end in itself.
But it can as well become a drug and a cage for yourself. Be careful.

: If you get too hung up in talking about it, you miss the point.
Yes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Marc Wachowitz, mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de   /  news zombie - reply by e-mail, too
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
Newsgroups: alt.rodney-king
From: pasand@Mari.Unit.NO (Per Annar Sandaune)
Subject: Re: he deserved it
Reply-To: pasand@Mari.Unit.NO (Per Annar Sandaune)
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 07:38:18 GMT

In article <BxMBBD.34s@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, mryan@cs.ulowell.edu (Mark Ryan) writes:
|> >Just out of any curiousity, have any of you reading this ever
|> >seen the whole tape?  If so, can you post a response?
|> 
|> 
|> I have seen the whole tape and agree that the police were well within there
|> rights.
|> 
|> 
|> 


Then I guess that the kicking and beating in one part of the video is outwighed by the non-violent part of it??

THAT IS NO EXCUSE.




Sandis,

Norway
Newsgroups: alt.rodney-king
From: margan@yale.edu (Quasimoto)
Subject: andrew chase
Followup-To: alt.rodney-king
Organization: Computing & Information Systems, Yale University
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:18:27 GMT

Mr. Chase, that is the biggest load of horseshit that I have ever read. 
The idea that CNN instigated the L.A. Riots is insane and racist. 
Obviously you are just looking for a scapegoat, and refuse to believe that
the riots might have had something to do with the incredibly poor living
conditions in South Central.  Get a life and get educated.
Newsgroups: alt.rodney-king
From: Andrew Chase <T3F2@UNB.CA>
Subject: CNN is partly to blame
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:52:27 GMT

I believe CNN news organization is partly responsible for the riots in
Los Angeles. When the decision was handed down in court CNN had live
pictures from a helicopter above a south-central L.A. intersection.
Nothing was happening. CNN presuggested there would be violence. Of
course when people saw this on TV they started to flood out into the
streets. This doesn't surprise me considering CNN provided full coverage
of the William Kennedy-Smith trial from Miami for the enjoyment of its
viewers.
From: kak2@po.CWRU.Edu (Kathryn A. Kohne)
Newsgroups: alt.rodney-king
Subject: Re: he deserved it
Date: 12 Nov 1992 16:31:10 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Just out of any curiousity, have any of you reading this ever
seen the whole tape?  If so, can you post a response?

-- 
Kathryn A. Kohne(alias "Fuse")
kak2
A day without fusion is like a day without sunshine!
Newsgroups: alt.rodney-king
From: mryan@cs.ulowell.edu (Mark Ryan)
Subject: Re: he deserved it
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 19:26:00 GMT

>Just out of any curiousity, have any of you reading this ever
>seen the whole tape?  If so, can you post a response?


I have seen the whole tape and agree that the police were well within there
rights.
From: galt%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt)
Newsgroups: alt.rodney-king
Subject: Re: he deserved it
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:05:19 GMT
Reply-To: galt%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu
Followup-To: alt.rodney-king
Organization: University of Utah, CS Dept., Salt Lake City

In article <1992Nov13.073818.28622@ugle.unit.no>, pasand@Mari.Unit.NO (Per Annar Sandaune) writes:
>In article <BxMBBD.34s@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, mryan@cs.ulowell.edu (Mark Ryan) writes:
>|> >Just out of any curiousity, have any of you reading this ever
>|> >seen the whole tape?  If so, can you post a response?
>|> 
>|> I have seen the whole tape and agree that the police were well within there
>|> rights.
>
>
>Then I guess that the kicking and beating in one part of the video is outwighed
>by the non-violent part of it??
>
>THAT IS NO EXCUSE.
>
>Sandis,
>
>Norway

Well you people in Norway have no idea how things work here...  How are we
supposed to keep the poor and minorities down if we don't keep beating the
shit out of them?  Police are justified in beating up social parasites
whenever they feel like it.  

And that black guy in Detroit that was just beaten to death by 7 cops...
I say we should just give shoot-to-kill orders to our cops so that they
can get it all done more efficiently.

Greg

----
(For those who missed it, the above is sarcasm)
----
Newsgroups: alt.rodney-king