From: gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Atari Falcon Discount Supermachine  Re: Sydnes is gone?!!
Date: 16 Aug 92 04:16:34 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

jyoung@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeff Young) writes:
: MANY versions of many programs now running on Falcons. That is very
: good because many people in England not buying A600s because big 
: percent of software not running on it.  Falcon 030 is almost same
: price as A600 with 2 megabyte chip so C= MUST force better compatable
: software!

I THINK I've got what you said sorted out.  Anyone ever tell you your
English is really, really bad?  Yes, many versions of many programs
ARE now running on Falcons.  However, they're all ST programs, and
will get no benefit from the Falcon besides running faster.  For
instance, Calamus (DTP) could benefit greatly from a 256 color screen.
However, that will require a total rewrite, to be likely.

And I just don't think that's going to happen.

: Amiga and Falcons WAY AHEAD of Apple!!
: (new 3000T/40 too expensive but)

It was a joke referring to having a 68030 with a 32-bit bus.

: YES!! Compare to A600 with no socket or 68030.

Except the Falcon would still be more expensive.  And no, of course it
doesn't have a socket for a 68881/2.  It's not an 020/030 machine.
Makes sense, doesn't it?

: Maybe other people know?  With A600 memory card has TERRIBLE price
: for even small memory.  A600 with 4 mb card will cost MUCH more
: than Falcon!

Not necessarily.  I've been looking into it, and it should be possible
to pull a "baseboard" idea with it, with a little work.  And in the
short term, it'll be cheaper, much cheaper, then a 4mb ram card for
the PCMCIA connector.

But to make another comparison, the wish-me bus used by the Falcon
isn't anywhere near as nice as PCMCIA, which is at least a
cross-platform expansion system.

: You must be expert designer because Next, Sunrize, SGI, Turtle Beach
: all use 56001 so maybe they do not have you knowledge!  Turtle Beach

You know very little.  The 56001 is not some awesome DSP, there are
much better ones currently available.

: card is $800 (same price as Falcon!??).  WHY Sunrize, SGI designers
: so foolish and not follow you advice with better DSP??

It doesn't make them foolish, I'm telling you it's not awesome.  It's
nice, but nothing more.

: C= does not even put DSP in A500, A2000, A3000 so maybe you are
: right!

It's being used for sound generation on the Falcon.  Sounds like the
Paula's handling that just fine.   That's the point.  It's filling a
function better left to other things, because anyone can tell you that
there are better uses for a DSP than to produce sound.

: With A600 PCMIA is REAL BUS and news said not even Apple following
: standard!  Maybe Atari designers need more input from expert like you.

It doesn't MATTER if Apple follows it.  It's got enough IBM backing
that Apple means next to nothing.

: IF 386 and video cards and ram cards fit in bus then it is good and
: cheap bus.

The way it sounds, it's not going to be likely you'll see this
"processor direct slot", and that's more or less what it is, with more
than one slot per system, as it's not a real bus.  No arbitration, bus
mastering, etc.  It's NOT a bus.  It's access to motherboard signals.
And the fact that boards MAY exist doesn't MAKE it a good bus, ISA
being proof.

: This is TRUTH!! Amiga has very good video and everyone hoping Falcon can
: match up to even A600.

But Atari isn't giving any video specifications.  No mention of
support for PAL/NTSC signals, no mention of signal quality, no mention
of specific features generalized by that post.  Doesn't sound very
"video-oriented".

: Not sure about blitter.  Amiga has very good blitter too.

The point is, the Atari blitter is a joke.  It doesn't compare to the
Amiga's blitter, which is actually a bit manipulator.

: Yes many millions of musicians waiting for more specs and next week
: Falcon will show all.

At this rate, they could be waiting a long time.  It looks like
they're trying to hide actual specifications with lots of generalizations.

: Next week everyone will know truth.  IF DSP is used very well
: in Falcon then many millions will buy it for sure!

Not for sure.  Because many millions of people don't have a use for a DSP.

: Yes Atari MUST give more info to compare SCSI2 in Falcon with
: IDE in A600!  People can compare with A2000 and A3000 too.

Are you beginning to see how little information they actually gave?
They gave you lots of flashy catch-phrases with no hard facts.  I'm
rather let down by this, I expected something more.

: Not sure but A600 has invisible Localtalk LAN I think!!

Except they mention the software for it being a separate package...
If they're going to put network HARDWARE on the system, then they
should put the SOFTWARE there too.  It's kind of a weak, half-hearted
attempt at competing with Apple's built-in networking capabilities, if
this is "how it is".

: But flicker fixer is $200-$300 custom jobbie too!  Even DKB Megachip
: is $300 custom jobbie so I hope Atari parallel port is FREE!

You don't seem to get it:  First of all, the reason the Amiga flickers
is because it's the STANDARD.  Televisions, those things you stare at
for hours on end, flicker.  To generate video compatible with that of
your television, it must be PAL or NTSC compatible, depending on where
you are, which means it's going to FLICKER.  More professionally, it's
referred to as "interlacing".

And having a "non-standard parallel port" is a bit different than
"flickery graphics".  You can't really make claims about knowing
anything about video without knowing stuff like that, you know.

: Atari stuffing SO MANY things in case maybe not possible, but expert

Doubtful.  RCA jacks aren't space-pigs, you know.

: designer like you would find a way and compete with A600 price!

All these compliments are just making me ooze.  If I'm an expert
designer now, maybe by the time I graduate I'll be able to take DH's
job.  :)

: ??? Many people can find things to do with both types so it is very good.

Having two "sets" of joystick ports is a hack.  One set digital only,
the other digital/analog.  Does it ring yet?

: You forgot comment about 1.44 drive!  People said 2.88 like in new PS/2
: can be used too so this is very good feature.

It's a lovely feature, I'm sure.  But I'd prefer a floptical or a hard
drive.  That's why I have a hard drive now.  I rarely use floppies.

: You must be A600 designer!  Many people will like option of using
: SCSI or IDE.  No choice with A600 but maybe C= will add $$$ option
: later??

Probably.  However, I still don't see the point of putting BOTH in.
If low price is the objective, it would be cheaper to cut the throat
of the worst offender, which, in this case, would be IDE.

: What is resource tracking?  Millions of people want MultiTOS DIG
: and memory protection so maybe resource tracking will be inlcuded
: later!

Resource tracking:  The OS keeps track of what you allocate and use
and frees it for you upon exit.  Or, if your task dies, you can free
everything it was using, and get everything back.

: This is short description..

: window. A variety of Inter-Process Communication (IPC) facilities are
: supported, including piping and forms of shared memory, as well as a
: brace of options by which processes may "spawn" child-processes, and
: control their operation.

Sounds pretty primitive.  As if "spawning processes" was something
never seen outside the Amiga/Unix community since 1.3/whenever...

: Not sure but you can ask Atari MultiTOS experts!

Atari has experts?  Who?  Nobody who CAN talk WILL until after
release.  If the release comes into existence.

: YES!! Sometimes Atari is doing very dumb things!

With that mistake, they ceased to follow in the footsteps of C=.  They
now lead the way.

: Many people said Calamus is best in the world and it is nice that 

Not.  There are far better ones, as any professional could tell you.
However, it is probably the best for the ST.

: people can use Falcon when they buy it!  If many software breaks
: like on A600 many people will think money is wasted.

Very little software breaks on the A600.  VERY little.

: This is very true so Atari should sell Falcon for $2000 and include 
: over $1000 in FREE software!!  You have very good idea!

No, they should take the time to develop a few more applications, not
that I consider a rolodex and a clock to be "applications".  The point
is that they should have done more work.

: Yes real bus like A600 might be good but Atari is trying to sell
: Falcons for very low price.

At the cost of future expansion capabilites.  And they've just limited
their future products by creating a bus standard which isn't a bus,
and shouldn't be standard.  Better for them that they support ISA than
support nothing.

: Maybe Atari experts can find out for sure next week.

Maybe.  When you find out, do tell.

: Not sure but with expert Next programers Falcon DSP might be
: used very nice!  Cannot compare with A600 because you said 
: 56001 DSP is not so good so C= did not use it.  

The Next doesn't arbitrate the 56001, either.  Is that an answer?  And
the fact that the DSP isn't the BEST doesn't mean it isn't good, nor
did I say it was the reason C= didn't use it.  Using a DSP for audio
generation is a waste of resources.  That's why I think Atari should
have done something else.

: Yes if Atari designers consulted you on many things they would not
: make so many mistakes!  For many millions of people Atari Falcon 030

Mabye they wouldn't have.  Who knows.

: is very good value and many students can learn about DSP and 68030
: and true color and Unix with it.  

Why on earth would they learn about Unix?  It's nothing like Unix.
Nothing.  If you've ever programmed Unix, you'd know...  It doesn't
RUN Unix.  And "students" who would use the DSP and 68030 probably
already know what they are, correct?

Greg

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(:	gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu			Gregory R. Block         :)
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