From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 09:29:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.031211.1@abo.fi>, jmarttila@abo.fi (Fast-Eddie Felson) writes:
|>
|> (.....)
|>
|> Now the market economy this chain goes from
|> top to bottom. The original demand defines the
|> product. The product defines the production. The
|> production defines the amount of capital, the 
|> raw-materials, and finally the labor. This works
|> fine because the demand always defines the supply
|> and if the supply doesn't match the demand it must
|> adjust to it or it stops existing.
|>  


Are you joking ?

Does it work fine "because the demand always defines the supply" ?
What about the millions of people in Africa starving to death nowadays
- don't they have any demands or needs for food and water ?
Or aren't they people ?


|>  


(Some quite sensitive remarks about the Soviet system deleted -
sensitive, but not very interesting.)


|>  
|> In a pure market economy the supply always meets the demand so there will
|> be no wasted efforts on any ring of this chain. 
|>  


I repeat - are you joking ?


|>  
|> Now here we get to my original statement, that there must be a need
|> for the labor, before the labor can be employed - not so that the
|> society has to create production to fulfil the labor's need to work. 
|> Which was to be proved O:)
|>  


Poor mathematics - you still avoid defining the need !


|>  
|> >Don't people starve in large areas of the world ?
|>  
|> Yes, to keep in the terms of my previous argumentation, the demand
|> of food can't reach the supply because there are not enough
|> resources to make enough supply. This is mainly caused the natural
|> conditions that are not suitable for agriculture, the source of
|> food. This is, however, another important question, but has nothing
|> to do with employment.
|>  


According to your argumentation the people of all cities/towns all over
the world should starve ! "This is mainly caused (by?) the natural
conditions that are not suitable for agriculture, the source of food."


|>  
|> The businesses problem is how to make profit. That's the only real
|> problem. If employing the workers doesn't increase profit, but
|> rather decreases it, it's not worth employing the workers. Shall


I agree, the only reason for making jobs in a capitalistic/liberalistic
system is to make profit.
I agree, the businesses have to try to maximize the profit, to survive
in a capitalistic/liberalistic system.
But someone have to pay for the living for the unemployed, and,
unfortunately for the capitalistic/liberalistic businesses, they have
to supply the money......
Or rather, the profit of their workers labor has to !


|> (.....)
|>  
|> The concept of people being paid equally for the equal jobs belongs
|> to the same category than the concept that the society has to make
|> jobs for the unemployed. You say the Pakistani workers should be
|> paid as much as the Norwegians. As it's not the businesses' problem
|> to keep up the standard of living of the workers, but making profit
|> there's no reason why the businesses would pay more than the workers
|> are worth. If the Norwegians are paid more, it simply indicates that
|> the businesses give more value to the Norwegians' work than to the
|> Pakistanis' work. 
|>  


I think you have misunderstood - the businesses don't pay what a worker
is worth - all the products are made by the workers (and former
workers, who paid for the machinery and so on) - that means that the
workers are worth (economically speaking :-) exactly the amount of
products thay make !

No, the businesses don't pay what a worker is worth - they just try to
minimize the payment.


|>  
|>  
|> >Joking is too serious to make jokes about .-)
|>  
|> Oh, but I was not joking O;) 
|>  


Neither did I :-)


|>  
|>       Greetings,
|>  
|>       Jouni  

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| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
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