HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 23:45:45 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: na
Keywords: Cub usa policy faith religion bsa

In article <1992Oct5.185733.29568@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>
>[...]
>> But Todd, while you may be uncomfortable with these beliefs, they are just
>>as valid as yours, [...]
>[...]
>
>If by "valid" you mean "true", then very few people would agree with
>you. Most of us believe that our beliefs about religion are truer than
>the beliefs of others.
 religious beliefs are just that, beliefs, you can not prove them, or we 
all of us would be of one religion.  No, I meant valid, ie, they are just 
as valid as anyone elses' beliefs, and that is a part of the Scouting 
tradition and teachings to learn to respect other religious beliefs.  
Look up the meaning of Reverent in you Scout Handbook or your Scoutmasters
handbook.  That is what I meant.  Don't try to misinterpret or twist my 
words, as you so often try to do with this issue (whether me or another's
post)
>
>>Just because your religion says Jesus Christ is mankinds Lord and
>>Savior does not mean that it is true.
>[...]
>
>I'd bet that Todd thinks it does.
 And that's fine, so long as he doesn't try to impose it upon others 
who do not wish it to be imposed.  I have no problem with education regarding
other religions, I used to do just that in an 8th grade CCD (catholic catechism)
class I taught, but you can not degrade or slander anothers' religion.  If you
notice in my original posting, I do not say that Todd is incorrect in his 
religious beliefs, just different than me, or most of the world (as most of 
the world is not Christian), and I respect that, but do not he, nor
you, nor anyone else try to supress my beliefs because they do not mesh 
with yours.  I am very tolerant until others try to take away my rights.  
When that occurs, you have broken the law, literally, as in the US
Constitution, and at that point, I have lost respect, yet I will still 
treat you with respect.  I do firmly believe in turning the other cheeck.  
So does the BSA, supposedly.
>
>- Carl
>--
>Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout '87
blacklisted '88



Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: ingr
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:47:37 GMT

Marc Bunz writes:

>The summary line about says it all!  The religious emblems and knots are
>awarded by the Scout's Religious Organization (i.e., temple, etc.), not by
>you, or your pack.

Doesn't the pack award the knot?  Isn't it a BSA award?

>Do you also feel you have a moral dilemma if one of
>your Scouts wears a Star of David around his neck?  That should not bother
>you any more than someone wearing a cross.

But I as a representative of BSA didn't put the Star of David around his
neck so it doesn't bother me at all.

>One of the NICE things about scouting in the USA is that it is designed to
>foster an acceptance of All religious beliefs, and as a result it should
>be hoped that you would not have a problem with one of your Scouts following
>HIS (his family's) beliefs.

I have a responsibility to share Jesus Christ with the world, but not to force
it upon anyone.  The problem I have is being viewed in any way as PROMOTING a 
false belief.

Todd Stevens
stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com
From: rickc@pogo.wv.tek.com (Rick Clements)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Cub Scout Leaders
Date: 7 Oct 92 00:20:55 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.


In article <91307@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com writes:

>When it comes to  finding den leaders, my personal experience is
>that it always comes down to saying "if we don't get a volunteer,
>there won't be a Wolf/Bear/Webelos Den." 

We often run into that.  However if we have a strong Tiger Cub group, it's
MUCH easier to get den leaders.  The parents learn it's not fatal.  I think
that's the reason that Webelos's parents must go on the campouts.  The boys
can handle it.  But, the parents need to discover they can handle it too, so
they will volunteer when they get to Scouts.

>For some reason, many people look at cub scouts as a babysitting 
>service that they get for free. That is one reason why the

Last year, we had one parent leave upset because we asked him to help with
his son's den.

-- 
Rick Clements (RickC@pogo.WV.TEK.COM)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov (Rich Krum)
Subject: Re: Cub Scout Leaders
Reply-To: rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov
Organization: Boeing Computer Support Services
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:54:22 GMT

Bingo!

That's the technique and approach that I used most times.

Usually the adults will gang up and find out who wants to be Den Leader, but
I had one bunch that rotated the duty.  The real pain was the Webelos Den
who only had Moms in it--no Dads available (this was when Webelos Den Leader
HAD to be male --stupid--).  We registered the two Den Leaders with their
initials, they wore the uniform, ran the den, it all worked fine.  One night
the District Executive came round for SME (Friends of Scouting) fund raising.
His eyebrows went up, untill I gently pointed out that the two Den Leaders were 
the Pack Committe for SME--nailed that bugger right in the wallet.  He said
absolutely NOTHING, EVER.  Fortunately this sillyness went away soon after.

The bottom line is to insist on involving the adults--Cubbing doesn't
work without them--or at least that's the way to play it.

--rich
---
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 E-MAIL REPLY TO:  rich@troll1.msfc.nasa.gov     PLEASE KEEP IT "G" RATED
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pepera@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Snorkeling in February
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:11:46 EST


	One of the program themes for this year is going to be snorkeling,
but because of scheduling conflicts, the main outing will be in February
at a local indoor pool. Does anyone have any ideas on how to make the
program interesting for the boys ? One idea is to have a mini olympics
which involve all water and snorkeling events. I would appreciate any
feedback I can get.

Sincerely,

Jerry Pepera
Assistant SM 
Troop 68 Painsville, OH
216 646-4277

pepera@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: "don poaps" <don.poaps@canrem.com>
Subject: "what would you have done
Reply-To: "don poaps" <don.poaps@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:16:08 EST


-> Come on, Scouters, somebody out there must have an opinion or
-> suggestion.
-> John McCollum
->
->
======================================================================
->  =========
->
-> "What would YOU have done?"
-> One of the boys in our troop, a 15 yr. old, Life Scout, was caught
-> smoking by one of the adult leaders at our campout this past weekend.
-> He was in the presence of other Scouts, some younger, when seen
-> smoking........
I would talk it over with the leadership TEAM.. ie.. Scouts Court of
Honour if you have one it's been a long time since I've been in Scouts
but as a cub leader I would have aQUITE talk with young LAD and find out
where he is coming from...

Organize a trip to a Cancer ward, have the Scouts do some Service work
in Cancer Clinic...ie films, Doctors, etc...
And what about the Leadership Team are they setting an example.. How can
you expect a Scout or any one in fact follow the example of their
leader, when they are smoking as well....

Other than that just DO YOUR BEST in guiding the boys.. You can lead
Boys but you some times can get to do the thing that are right...

->
-> How would you, as a registered adult leader of the troop have handled
-> the situation?
->
-> John McCollum
-> ASM Troop 895, Circle Ten Council
-> Richardson, Tx

Don Poaps (Aliais Baloo)
21st Burlington Cub Pack and new SCOUT Leader...

Yours in Scouting

don.poaps@canrem.com
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 13:43:10 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.214737.1354@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>
>I have a responsibility to share Jesus Christ with the world, but not to force
>it upon anyone.  The problem I have is being viewed in any way as PROMOTING a 
>false belief.
>
>Todd Stevens
>stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com
>
Todd - You are just showing how much of a hypocrite you are.  You are
suggesting that anyone who does not agree with your view holds a false
belief.  That is outright rubbish!!!

From my perspective, you DO NOT have a responsibility to share Jesus
with me or anyone else.  You HAVE a responsiblity to let me practice
my religion as I wish, without any interference or proseltizing.

Judaism predates your form of Christianity by several thousand years
of practice and history.  It has well founded beliefs that state, and
I repeat it again, that the Messiah will be announced by Elijah the
Prophet and that on his arrival, there will be no more wars.  Based on
this belief (again, a belief that predates Jesus), the Jews do not
accept Jesus as the Messiah.  We accept him as a man, as a teacher
(translate that to Rabbi) and a Jew.  We also recognizes that his
teachings were rooted in Judaism.  We do not accept the immaculate
conception or that he is the son of HaShem.  Also, our beliefs are
based on the original Hebrew and Aramaic writings, not the multiple
translations that have followed (Hebrew>Greek>Latin>English).  

My apologies to rec.scouting for this lengthy last paragraph.
However, I am still convinced that Todd just doesn't understand and
his beliefs may make him unable to understand.  If this is indeed the
case, then Todd should not be in a scouting leadership position.  He
is violating Scout laws as were previously posted.

Jeff Edelheit		email:  edelheit@mitre.org
Cubmaster and Webelos Den Leader
Pack 159, Patawomac District, National Capital Area Council

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Keywords: Cub usa policy faith religion bsa
Organization: ingr
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:11:05 GMT

Donald R. Newcomb writes:

>  I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember it you
>don't have anything to do with awarding religious awards. These are
>awarded by someone appointed by his faith to do this. The Cub simply
>informs you that  he  is working on or has received the award. I feel
>that as a Scout Leader you must respect his right to practice his faith
>as he sees it. If you can not do this you should have another talk
>with the Chartering Organization about being a Scout Leader.

This is apparently quite a hot button for this group!  The last thing I
want is for you rec.scouters to think I am at all anti-Semitic, anti-Islamic,
or any other anti's you label me with.  I will respond to Donald's article
because I believe it gets to the heart of the matter.  I believe I must
respect everyones right to practice their faith as they see fit (as long
as it does no harm to anyone else).  Specifically, my problem is with
actively promoting or encouraging a faith that discredits Jesus Christ as
Lord and Savior of mankind.  I guess as long as it is clear to everyone 
involved that the Scout award given to the boy who has achieved an Islamic/
Jewish/Hindu/Buddist emblem is to not be interpreted IN ANY WAY as PROMOTING 
or ENCOURAGING his faith, then I would be comfortable supporting it.  But how 
can it not promote or encourage?  Isn't that the purpose of an award??


Todd Stevens
stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit)
Subject: Re: Names of Troop Leaders
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 02:01:41 GMT

Having seen the UK tradition of using Jungle Book names for Cub
Scouters, I have recommended to our pack committee that we follow that
tradition.  As I am Cubmaster (and a Webelos Den Leader), I've adopted
the name Akela.  Our committee chair, who is somewhat a bear of man,
has taken Baloo.

For those who might be interested, a UK scouter posted a whole list of
names several months ago.  If anyone is interested, I can repost that
list to the net.

Also, the cubs think that using Jungle Book names are lots of fun.

Jeff Edelheit		email:  edelheit@mitre.org
The MITRE Corporation	voice:  (703) 883-7586
7525 Colshire Drive	FAX:	(703) 883-1397
McLean, VA   22102
From: rjt@softin.lonestar.org (Richard Threlkeld)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Scouting Clipart
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 21:51:39 CST
Organization: Software Innovation, Arlington, Tx

hellmann@cs.scarolina.edu (Douglas R Hellmann) writes:

> eam@phx.mcd.mot.com (Ed Mohrman) writes:
> 
> >I would be interested in others experiences. Maybe a co-op can be formed 
> >where some of us trade what we have. Sounds scary if lots of people got 
> >involved, but I guess I will risk making the suggestion. 
> 
> I am interested!!! Right now all I have is the stylized BSA emblem, but
> I could get more from the Scout office to trade for anything you have.
> Keep me posted.
> 
Me too.  I have a Cannon full-page scanner, Corel Draw, Art and Letters, 
and a lot of normal clip art.  I have a few scout items (for example, 
the Cub Scout Wolf in the diamond) which I have scanned (TIF), spent a lot 
of time cleaning up, and then turned into vector format (CGM, DRW, GED, 
etc).  This way, you can resize it without losing any clarity.

Unfortunately, I do not currently have a lot of time.  After I have 
acquired the new secretary, perhaps...
From: ckennedy@sleepy.helios.nd.edu (chris kennedy)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Keywords: Cub usa policy faith religion bsa
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:52:08 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame

In article <1992Oct5.141401.23557@linus.mitre.org> edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit) writes:
>
>Second, Todd's postings go along way in reinforcing the mistaken
>belief that BSA is a Christian organization.
>
>Third, if Todd can't separate his beliefs from his role as a Scouter
>(encouraging boys to grow, rewarding them for positive accomplishments)
>(and equate awarding a religious award to the latter), then he should
>step down.
>
This of course begs the question, how much influence should the chartering 
organizatoin or the scoutmaster have in influencing the "character" of the 
troop or pack.  In other words is it more acceptable for a scout troop that
is chartered by a church to encourage their kids to attend services at
campouts, or start a court of honor with a benediction than it is for a troop
that is chartered by a school.  

My personal opinion, to spur debate, is that if there is more than one troop
in the area it is alright for troops to take on a more specific character.
That way if a particular boy is not comfortable with the Christian, or Jewish,
or whatever character of the troop they can go to one that they are more 
comfortable with.  If, however, the troop is in a small town so that there
is no choice available, I think that the troop has more of an obligation to
make sure that the character of the troop is in the broadest possible terms.

chris
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: bkgray@Chaos.mcs.kent.edu (Brian Gray)
Subject: Re: Seeking advice on Eagle Court of Honor
Organization: Kent State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 22:50:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct01.223720.19526@news.mentorg.com> peteg@std.mentorg.com 
>	(Peter Galambos SST-C2139) writes:
>My son has passed his Eagle Board and we're starting to think about
>the Court of Honor and have a lot of questions.  I'm hoping some
>of you who have been through this can offer some advice:

Normally, the answer to most of your questions is that almost anything
goes, within the limits of good taste, fiscal responsibilty, and THE
WISHES AND DESIRES OF THE SCOUT BEING HONORED, and that your troop's
traditions are a good starting point.  But from your questions, it
appears that there is no recent tradition to draw from.  Talk to the
troop committees of troops who have recently conducted Courts of Honor
in your council.  Talking to them for half an hour can save days and days.


>1) I've seen references to 'Woods Wisdom: Troop Program Features' in
>   regard to planning Courts of Honor.  Is this worth looking at?

Yes.  Get a copy any way you can, steal its best ideas, and add them
your program.

>2) Is it advisable to send out RSVP type invitations or are informal
>   invitations OK?

Probably both.  There are some people you invite for which an RSVP is a
good idea (Council & District leadership, local "dignitaries", etc. 
You may not need an RSVP for others.

>3) How long of a ceremony should be planned?  What seems to be the best
>   time (Saturday, Sunday, afternoon, evening)?
No more than an hour.  45 minutes is better.  Schedule it for when the
people you want to be there can be there.


My council publishes a guide for planning the Court of Honor.  Any
request for a copy will be honored ASAP.  It includes ideas for the
program, other related activities, and addresses to request special
recognitions from the (Ohio) governor, the President, senators,
Congressmen, Green Bar Bill, etc.


Good Luck.

brian

-- 
*************************************************************************
* 				Brian Gray				*
* 			924 Allen Drive, Kent, Ohio 44240		*
*	Seneca District, Great Trail Council BSA, Marnoc Lodge #151	*
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: R1SCM@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Dr. Steven C. Myers)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 03:13:50 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.193917.8306@infonode.ingr.com>
stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
 
>Having been practically coerced into becoming an assistant den leader
>for my son's bear den, I figured I'd better read through his bear book
>to see what I was getting myself into.  In chapter 2 I read about the
>Emblems of Faith Achievement where the scout receives the Religious
>Emblem Square Knot.  I was greatly disturbed to read about the Buddhist,
>Hindu, Islamic and Jewish emblems that I, serving in a leadership
>position, might have to award as an achievement someday.  As a Christian,
>I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to
>further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.  I was wondering
>how other Christian scout leaders have handled this moral dilemma.  I just
>hope it remains a hypothetical situation for me!
>
>
>Todd Stevens
>stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com
 
Todd,
This is very important.  You would never be in the position to award
these awards to your den members.  The awards are recognized by
scouting, but are regulated and presented by the religious body.
Even in your own case, your pack would not present an award to a boy
even if that boy were from the sponsoring organization.  It is the
responsibility of the "church" to award.  The pack should not
conduct a ceremony, but just give the kid a cheer for acomplishing
something on their own.  Again, BSA does not award the religious
awards, but allows religions to award medals to members of their
faith that are also scouts.
Steve Myers
Scoutmaster, Troop 1
From: kai@kaijen.ka.sub.org (Kai Jendrian)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: SCOUTING GEAR
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 00:06:33 GMT
Organization: Me? Organized?

Hi,

I don't konw if there is a list of stores all over the world which
carry SCOUTING GEAR. I think it would be interesting for each scout
to have access to such a list.
If there exists something like that, can please someone tell me
where I find it.
If it doesn't exist, than I volunteer to make and maintain such a
list.
Please send me addresses you find useful in your country and I'll
collect them an post this list from time to time in rec.scouting.

Some time ago I tried to start a list on camp-sites, but unfortunately
I got only very few addresses. My interest is still there. So if
you have addresses of interesting camp-sites with a short 
description why you regard it as good for scouts, please send
it to me.

Hope to hear from you all.

Gut Pfad
   Kai.
---
Kai Jendrian, W-7500 Karlsruhe, Germany, +49-721-685824
From: rjt@softin.lonestar.org (Richard Threlkeld)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 22:09:54 CST
Organization: Software Innovation, Arlington, Tx

gds@crosfield.co.uk (gary stamp) writes:

> In article <1992Sep24.111218.20617@relay.nswc.navy.mil> pladd@nswc-wo.nswc.na
> >
> >A friend of mine is cubmaster for a local pack.  He has heard that there is
> >a software package somewhere out there that does all of the management chore
> >for running a Pinewood Derby (i.e. setting up heats, recording placing, etc)
> >Does anyone /know of/ have / know an ftp site for / this software?
> >
> 
> Considering the wider aspects,
> 
> Are there s/w packages which help with the day-to-day running of a cub pack ?
> 
> 	E.g events necessary for badges plus the other 1000's of things 
> 	    which require administration.
Look in Scouting magazine.  We have used one in our Troop for some time, 
but I am not the record keeper and do not have its name here.  It was 
purchased through an ad in Scouting.  The same company also has a 
Cub Pack package, but I do not use it in my Pack.  
 
I do have a package of paperwork for running a Pinewood Derby.  We normally
run 50-80 boys through in about an hour (+ or - 15 minutes) with everyone 
having a good time, nobody left out, and a true double-elimination
race.  We have a physical layout, jobs for each adult (from weighing in 
to announcer), checklists for each job, forms for registration and 
heats, etc.  We have loaned our track and the information packet to 
several packs in the DFW area with good results.  If you want it, 
send me an email and I will try to make it available.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 15:49:21 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Oct06.011937.17385@bmerh85.bnr.ca> rcano@bnr.ca writes:
>
>I have been following this thread, and i guess it's time for me to
>throw in my piece. As a cub leader, I make no secret of my own 
>faith (catholic). At the same time I don't reject anyone who
>has no faith, and I encourage boys of other faiths to observe
>and practice their own religion. My basic attitude is that I will not
>tell God how he wants to be worshiped. 
>
>I'm not aware of any Scouts Canada restriction about athiests.
>Our pack is open to all, and I think most of out leaders
>(myself included) would rebel if we were told otherwise.
>
>One of the speakers at a recent training conference here in
>Ottawa summed up the 'love and serve god' part of the cub 
>promise as "there is a supreme being, and he ain't you".
>I think that should work for most boys, even those with no 
>religion should get the message (for the militants down 
>south, translate 'supreme being' into something you can agree
>with). 
>
>The ideals we are supposed to be teaching are universal, I just 
>happen to find my inspiration, as a teacher, in my own faith.
>
Bravo Bob, 
  I think this summs much of this debate up very well.  Thank you.

WWW
Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout '87
blacklisted '88