From: Michael Ryan <ryan@astrosun.tn.cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Surviving (was Re: Getting Something off My Chest)
Nntp-Posting-User: mtr1@cornell.edu
Organization: Astro. Dept., Cornell Univ.
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d1
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:37:41 GMT

Subject: Surviving (was Re: Getting Something off My Chest)
From: Jess Anderson, anderson@macc.wisc.edu
In article <1992Jul27.002350.21611@macc.wisc.edu> Jess Anderson,
anderson@macc.wisc.edu writes:
>
>In article <1992Jul10.155659.4336@ifi.unizh.ch>
>kiser@ifi.unizh.ch (Markus Kiser) writes:
>
>Markus is traveling in the States just now, I believe, so he
>may not see this.  But I decided not to wait.  My remarks
>here don't take exception to anything Markus says, but
>rather use his posting as a springboard into a related area,
>derived from my personal history.
>
>>In article <vanyel.710698730@camelot>
>>vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams) - among other
>>things - writes:
>
>>>I've become more satisfied with just "being" and less angry
>>>at not "being something/someone." I've started to channel
>>>the kind of love I get from my friends into the void created
>>>by a lack of the kind of love people get from romantic
>>>relationships.  And I've started to take notice of the fact
>>>that I've survived this long, which probably means that
>>>surviving a little longer without a "special someone" isn't
>>>as difficult as it seems.
>
>>(Life is more that just surviving.  I am sure you know that.
>> Else I would have to ask you *what* it is exactly you say to
>> be surviving.)
>
>While I certainly agree that life is -- most of the time --
>more than just surviving, I can recall vividly many periods
>in my life in which "just surviving" seemed to be about all
>I had going for myself.  I've known others who also counted
>it a major achievement not to perish on any particular day,
>so great was their misery.  So though in our better periods
>we can feel that there is quite a lot more to life than
>surviving, there are times when just that much is a sort of
>victory, especially condidering the alternative.
>
>I was reminded of some of this this past week when I posted
>my own comments on Alan Williams's post.  I don't think it's
>an indiscretion to say I got a letter from a mother whose
>young gay son has had a long battle with suicidal
>depression.  Parenthetically, it seems both mother and son
>are readers of soc.motss.  The son is getting along better
>now, but the letter reminded me how tenuous a grip we
>sometimes have on life, and also how terrifying it must be
>to a loving parent to see your child in the throes of that
>struggle.
>
>Indeed, there's a sense, I think, in which suicide is one of
>the cruelest of all options.  Not only does it snuff out all
>potentials for life -- they are *always* there, no matter
>how bleak it sometimes seems -- for that one person, but in
>nearly all cases it wreaks the worst kind of emotional havoc
>on quite undeserving people who really care about you.
>
>In a small town about 40 miles from here lives a woman I
>know named Kay; she's about my age.  When she was young, her
>favorite uncle killed himself, leaving her terribly hurt and
>confused.  She got married and raised a large family, but
>when she was about 40, her favorite brother killed himself
>(he was one of my best friends and a sometime lover).  Two
>years ago, her 24-year-old son (coincidentally a great
>beauty with everything to live for, one would have thought)
>killed himself.  One of her other sons is my close friend
>and also a sometime lover.  So while Kay lost an uncle, a
>brother, and a son, at the same time her mother (who was
>still living) lost a brother, a son, and a grandson.  For all
>the survivors in this large family, it's as though they are
>being stalked by the death gene.
>
>I'm sure, given the stories we've heard, that some somewhere
>between 10,000 and 25,000 of you have given suicide either a
>try or at least serious consideration.  For any of you
>currently thinking of it, my plea is: please don't.  Please
>get help instead.  I can't tell you how relieved I am now
>that I didn't do that to my mother and all the others who
>love me.
>
>I'm sure there are a thousand reasons to consider it.  For
>me it was always somehow bound up with love and lovers.
>Retrospect is a wonderful thing (something you don't have if
>you take that final step).  The current thread has been
>raising echoes all over the landscape of the past for me.
>
>>I think it is a good way "to channel the love you get from
>>your friends into the void created by the lack of the kind
>>of love one can get from a romantic relationship", to use
>>your words here.  It is what I have learned during the last
>>three years.  
>
>I think the idea of redirecting one's energies into all
>sorts of things -- not just friends, but work, hobbies,
>sports, travel, reading and writing, lots of things -- can
>play an important role in adding a sense of worthwhileness
>to one's life.  And the void it fills is not just the
>perceived absence of lovers, but really all perceived
>deficiencies.
>
>>In fact, I have learned this lesson so very
>>well that, until three months ago, I could convince far too
>>many people that I did not want nor needed a romantic
>>relationship.
>
>In passing, note "want or need;" a very important
>distinction there, want and need not being at all the same
>thing.  For me this distinction was a key discovery, part
>of saving my life.
>
>>[new love found]
>
>>Since then, my life is not just me, it's him also.  But at
>>the same time I still have very much of the freedom I need
>>to live.  Yet, in the back of my mind I know that I am able
>>to live a good life alone, whenever this would happen again.
>>I know that I *need* to know that. For once, my having been
>>alone made sense.  I really hope you'll be able to say this
>>to yourself one day.
>
>Rather in contrast to Markus, perhaps, what it has taken me
>so long to learn is that as wonderful as love can be -- I've
>been uncommonly lucky in that regard, I think, having had
>quite a lot of it -- it isn't, as during most of my life I
>would have claimed, the be-all and end-all of existence.  I
>know it sounds a bit silly, but the point of existing is to
>exist; everything else is icing on the cake.  Continuing to
>exist is the obvious precondition for everything else.  It
>seems so odd now that I could ever have overlooked that and
>been willing to throw it *all* away.  I'm sure that getting
>one's wants confused with one's needs are part of reason for
>missing the obvious.
>
>-- 
>Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of
Wisconsin
>Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best,
UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
>NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet:
anderson@wiscmacc
>Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone
608/262-5888

Subject: Re: Surviving (was Re: Getting Something off My Chest)
From: FJ!!, fjvwing@cs.vu.nl
In article <15569@star.cs.vu.nl> FJ!!, fjvwing@cs.vu.nl writes:
>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>>For any of you
>>currently thinking of it, my plea is: please don't.  Please
>>get help instead.  I can't tell you how relieved I am now
>>that I didn't do that to my mother and all the others who
>>love me.
>
>"Please don't end that utter pain you feel, I'll be hurt."
>
>I know that the issues of remaining families go deeper than that, but
>it is essentially what I hear, from far more people than you. It also
>strikes me as shit.
>
>It needs a rephrase.
>
>The reason for continuing to live when living hurts so bad you want to
>end the pain, should be that there might be a way out to make life
>liveable again, not that _others_ want you to continue.
>
>				FJ!! (Sorry about the typo's. I'm about
>				to get a migraine, and my vision is
>				going crazy with interference
>				patterns.)

Subject: Re: Surviving
From: Jess Anderson, anderson@macc.wisc.edu
In article <1992Jul28.013253.3328@macc.wisc.edu> Jess Anderson,
anderson@macc.wisc.edu writes:
>
>In article <15569@star.cs.vu.nl> fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
>writes:
>
>>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>
>>>[about suicide]
>
>>>For any of you
>>>currently thinking of it, my plea is: please don't.  Please
>>>get help instead.  I can't tell you how relieved I am now
>>>that I didn't do that to my mother and all the others who
>>>love me.
>
>>"Please don't end that utter pain you feel, I'll be hurt."
>
>What a bizarre interpretation, or rather misinterpretation.
>If you feature what I was saying as having anything at all
>in common with that sentiment, you're quite mistaken.
>
>>I know that the issues of remaining families go deeper than
>>that, but it is essentially what I hear, from far more
>>people than you.  It also strikes me as shit.
>
>As you can tell, I take it rather ill that you say something
>like that.  You're hearing what you apparently *want* to
>hear, not what's there to be heard.
>
>You seem to think a person's pain is the only thing in the
>world that counts for anything, that anyone who is suffering
>*deserves* to have the entire world revolve around their
>misery.  This is by no means the case.  In fact, that sort of
>self-indulgence should in most cases be pulled up short by
>reality right away.
>
>>It needs a rephrase.
>
>Everything does, probably, so ...
>
>>The reason for continuing to live when living hurts so bad
>>you want to end the pain, should be that there might be a
>>way out to make life liveable again, not that _others_ want
>>you to continue.
>
>You talk as though others have no stake, as though part of
>what makes life livable [note the spelling] couldn't possibly
>have anything to do with others in one's life.  That's
>nonsense.  I know there are indeed many different kinds of
>situations that lead a person to consider suicide, but as a
>person who spent the greater part of 25 years being in that
>situation, I think I can adequately testify to at least one
>point of view.
>
>So one thing you're doing is attempting to invalidate my
>witness for your own reasons.  Fine with me, no one can stop
>you.  But I don't have to like it, which I assuredly don't.
>
>Making it clear to a suicidal person that you personally
>face a real loss if they go through with it and trying to
>secure their agreement that they will *not* carry it out are
>major factors in helping a person pull themselves back from
>the brink.  You're not going to get much chance to help
>someone (and if you're in a position to help and you don't
>help, you're as much as saying "Go ahead.") unless you can
>get the person back from that brink.
>
>Go back to what I said: "Please don't.  Get help instead." I
>didn't prescribe what form of help it should be or from whom
>it should come.  So your reaction seems most unwarranted to
>me.  
>
>If you want to present an alternative view so it can be
>discussed, that's fine, I'm all for it, but if you're going
>to call what I said shit, you can save your breath.  I think
>it's a given that I know more about it than you do, having
>had to struggle with myself over it as an adult for 1.25
>times the time you've been alive.  So show a little respect,
>migraine or no migraine.
>
>Hope you feel better soon, too.  I've only had about half a
>dozen vascular headaches in my life but that's enough to
>know they are a real hell.
>
>-- 
>Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of
Wisconsin
>Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best,
UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
>NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet:
anderson@wiscmacc
>Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone
608/262-5888