From: jchien@leland.Stanford.EDU (Jennifer Crystal Fang-Chien)
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas Ashers!
Organization: The Land of Earthquakes (Southern Cal)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 07:19:44 GMT

In article <ogorman.713904707@unix1.tcd.ie> ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie (Lucifuge) writes:
>In <1992Aug14.185144.1818@eskimo.celestial.com> alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler) writes:

	Sorry to get on the track a bit late, but here I am... (Btw,
It would be nice if when responding to these long posts that one could
leave a space between previous stuff and one's thoughts.  It reads much
easier.)

	A minor note: I agree with most of what Mary said, though it
was certainly interpreted the wrong way in some instances.

>>A: There is a terrible situation that I cannot change.
>>B: Why the f**k am I going to let situations outside my control affect
>>   my emotions?  I can CHOOSE to feel any way I want to.
>>C: Therefore I might as well feel good.
>
>One does not choose the way one feels, one FEELS the
>way one feels.

	True.  But one can choose how one deals with
the feeling.  What Mr. Butler meant above, I think, was that if you
think you 'might as well feel good', from that point, you can reason,
"ok, so what can I do to stop feeling bad, what activities would help,
etc... who can I talk to", and take the appropriate action, rather
than sitting at home feeling bad and mulling over the situation
because you think "There's nothing I can do."
	One does choose to mope around and concentrate on unfortuate
happenings, versus going for a jog, for example.

>>A: There is a terrible situation that I cannot change.
>>B: There are also a lot of ok situations that I can enjoy if I want to.
>>C: I will get involved in and enjoy the situations that I can.
>
>Also bollocks. See above.

	It is usually true that going out and being physically
active takes the mind off matters.  Or doing a favorite activity
(say, reading news, tho certainly not this group... ;).  Or talking
to someone.  Or self-expression (like Megazone).

>>A: There is a terrible situation that I cannot change.
>>B: There are a lot of people a heck of a lot worse of than I am  (maybe not
>>   the majority but even 1% worse off is 100's of millions of people)
>>C: Why don't I stop moping around in this pool of self pity and get over it.

>Again shite. I should be happy cause things might be worse. Give me a
>break. When your heart has been ripped out you sort of lack that kind of
>objectivity, compriS?

	This I agree with Lucifuge.  Besides, using someone else's
misery to your advantage is not what I'd call very thoughtful.

>>   And some people spend an awful lot of energy convincing themselves that is
>>true.  Why do you need to believe everything is awful so strongly?
>
>Why do you need to believe it isn't?

	Who needs to believe either way?  Reality simply is.  It
exists.  One must deal with it.  the above is like arguing whether
or not one should firmly believe the sky is blue.  We don't believe,
we simply know it as a fact.

>>   I wish I could tell you ways around it.  I cant.  All I can say is
>>that there are things you haven't tried.  And there are other ways of
>>looking at things.  And you can give negative things less importance
>>and give positive things more importance.  Even though it doesn't feel
>>like it sometimes you really do choose how you feel and how you react
>>to events around you.

	This is interesting.

>Among the things I haven't tried are murder and suicide....
>Your belief system is very amusing..."I will assign
>this experience this value...". So logical and precise and doomed.

	But unfortunately, Lucifuge doesn't explore if there exist
activites he hasn't tried, perhaps by asking Mr.Butler and 
serious asking himself.  Instead he immediately assumes he's tried all
activities.  I feel there's a need for deeper examination of the 
issue by Lucifuge here.
	And what is wrong with logic? Are we to muddle through
life without any reason or sense?  Why does logic equate with lack
of feeling?  Or inflexible?

>>    If circumstances are beyond your control then why let them be so
>>important as to control your feelings?  
>
>Control the circumstances beyond your control? *laughter* 

	What Mr.Butler meant here, I think, was that one can
control one's reactions, by putting things in perspective and
assign a different importance to events.  This does not mention
or involve controlling the circumstances itself (e.g., my dog
died yesterday -- he can never be revived, but I don't have to
make it so important to me.)

>>  You choose how you react to your stituation in life.  You
>>choose how you respond to the actions of others.  You choose how you feel.
>
>Ok. I'll say it again too. Bull. Mostly. 

	Come on, Lucifuge, have a defense.  Though I don't agree
that one can choose how to feel,but through time, one can change how
one feels in reaction to certain situations.  Which is what was meant,
I think.

[re: Mr.Butler's philosophy]
> It doesn't do fuck all for me for instance...

	Has one ever tried to understand what was meant, instead of
ardently denying?  Considered and tried the approach?
	No?  Of course it doesn't work for you.


Jennifer