From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian.american
Subject: Re: Why is SCIA needed ? ( Thanks to Ashok, Milind, Purna, Ravi, Sid...
Date: 15 Apr 92 21:14:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <92105.161600AXM128@psuvm.psu.edu>, ARIJIT MAHALANABIS <AXM128@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> In article <1992Apr14.154631.24204@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>, alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com
> (alok.vijayvargia) says:
> 
> First of all, if I misrepresented your views, why in the world didn't you
> respond to my earlier posting when I had rebuked you about this? 

What other post ? Do you expect me to reply to all the posts on the USENET
or what ? You know I have a real job which happens to be quite demanding
too.

> Going back on your words now doesn't help any. What you said was crystal 
> clear to me.

I don't know what words you are talking about. I think I have clarified quite
distinctly what I said or meant.

> I assure you, Alok, there is very little that I am confused about. 

Yah! Being self-righteous Arijit ?

> 
> >> But more and more
> >> I'm convinced it was formed more to protect you from the barbs of those who
> >> would refute you.

Why is it then that I am the one who is refuted the most on this very group ?
AND WHO IS SUPPOSED TO PROTECT ME HERE ON THIS GROUP ?

> Why is it that anyone who expresses this view is out to get you and to
> destroy the group?? With the exception of Deputy Sid Nag, I don't think
> one other poster has construed this view point as anti-SCIA. I am all for
> a forum for IA's, I really am. But I guess anyone who disagrees with the
> ALLMIGHTY ALOK is against SCIA. 'L'etat c'est moi', eh Alok?

Nonsense. I don't really mind constructive disagreements.

> 
> >> Not all is good in Indian heritage indeed. But what gets me is people like
> >> you being ashamed of India. Not everything is well in America as you point
> >            ^^^^^^^
> >Once again you are misleading. What I said is that I have felt (lately)
> >ashamed of human rights violations in INdia.
> 
> It is unfair to comment on India's human rights record without actually
> being in the shoes of the Indian police. 

How did you conclude that I was refering to the INdian police ?!!
I was refering to the government, militants, the communists, the naxalites
and the socio-linguistic-religious thugs and cronies ...

Government is included because of its short-sighted policies.
Police is to blame too in several specific cases.

> I will admit that some of the crimes are heinous. 

Like what ?

> But India is a leader amongst 3rd world and
> developing nations in democracy and in giving people power to run their
> country. 

Fine. But that doesn't mean that there is no scope for improvement.

> I wonder how the Indian police compare to Cuba's police or even
> the 'freedom fighting' Contras whom the US vehemently supported. 

Why are we doing this comparison ?

> Where is human rights then? 

A number of people opposed US support of Contras. Why do you think
there were such a long Iran contra hearing ?


> But to people like you anything the west says is gospel.

Utter nonsense. Have you ever seen me supporting US stance on Contras ?
I have never ever said a single word to that effect.

Besides if US is violating human rights, that doesn't mean that
human rights violation in INdia can be ignored.

> >Likewise I find the handling of Punjab and Kashmir problems in INdia
> >is something one ought to be ashamed of. Just think about how many innocent
> >citizens have died there.
> 
> Well, I have not met anyone from this country ashamed in the least about
> the US role in the Gulf War. They may disagree with Bush and his policies
> but they do not feel any shame. 

Just because you haven't met, does not mean that they are not there.

> As for Punjab and Kashmir, just think
> how many innocents would have died had it NOT been for the Indian army.

Just think how many lives would have been saved
if a policy of understanding of the Sikh and Kashmiri grievances was followed 
instead of suppression. 

> But I suppose we SHOULD agree to Khalistan and donate Kashmir to
> Pakistan, eh Mr. Vijayvargia? 

I am on SCI records vehemently opposing that.

> Punjab and Kashmir are war-zones. We are
> basically fighting civil war in these areas. How can we talk about human
> rights at war time? 

This situation has been brought up due to years of neglect and to some extent
betrayal of the Sikh and Kashmiri aspirations. Had there been no neglect, 
there would have been no war situation today.

> How many Amnesty International reports were released
> about Vietnamese women who were victims of rape by American soldiers
> during the Vietnam War? Oh but our boys can do no wrong, can they Mr.
> Vijayvargia? 

I agree Amnesty reports are lopesided and targeted at specific zones.
However this is no excuse for the situation in Punjab and Kashmir today.

> But all of this is far from the matter at hand. The fact is
> we cannot be ashamed of India or Indian POLICIES without first hand
> knowledge of what is transpiring there.

Well, pal, I lived in India for 21 years in this very part of India which I am
talking about.I have made frequent visits there and my relatives and friends
live there who have given me first hand information at times.

I have kept a watch on news, tv, on this issue.

What more do you need ?

Bottom line is that people there are now fed up of the both sides.
They are scared of the militants and they are disappointed in the
government. An average citizen in these areas feels 'crushed' between 
the two. Indian bureacrats are equally to blame for this fiasco.
It is they who neglected this problem for so many years. When it became
too hot, they used military and police trying to brutally crush it.
Relying on military and police alone is not the answer to the problems
in Punjab and Kashmir. A pragmatic policy with vision and understanding
is required, something the aged leadership of India seems incapable of.
Recycling old ideas is not going to work.

> >> But it could have been an invaluable tool for many people.
> 
> >Well it still is.
> 
> Hardly. Anyone who says SCIA is an invaluable tool, (a tool of any sort
> for that matter) is either blind or ignorant or both.

Blind are those who fail to see the power of such a powerful medium. 
Ignorant are those who depend on me or others to tell them how to use 
this group. It is your group, you have to make it worthwile for yourself.

> Stop hiding in your shell. I wanted SCIA to succeed. Check your voting
> records. From the beginning I was a staunch believer in the usefulness of
> SCIA. Hopefully a more ethical vote will succeed and then we can get down
> to some real business.
> 
> >You are now playing into the hands of those who don't want to see this
> >group develop.
> 
> You know what your problem is? You think you know what everbody's problem
> is!! 
> As it happens, I agree with Harpal, George, Trina and Venu about your conduct.

Great. A man is known by the company he keeps.  No wonder you are getting
'wild' lately in your flaming.

> I don't agree with them in regard to the necessity of this group. I think
> the networthy posts by people like Purna, Milind and others have shown
> that there is a necessity for this group. 


I agree that they have made good contributions to SCIA. A few others
Ashok Popat, Ravi, Sid Nag, Chander Ahuja, Arun Gupta etc. have made good 
contributions too. My thanks to all of them for improving the dBs.

> But all of these posts are lost
> in your constant bickering with the above parties. 

No they are not lost, they actually stand out. In fact that is how you 
noticed their contribution.

> I realize that my
> posts are no better in this regard. And as a result, I will not pursue
> any further flames on SCIA. If you have quarrels or problems, send me
> mail.

I didn't have any quarrels, just some facts correction and explanations.
> 
> Arijit "Have had it up to my ears with Flames" Mahalanabis.

Alok "Trying to keep SCIA alive" Vijayvargia

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"Evil wins when the good keep silent."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian.american