From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: William vs Bertram; authenticity
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 19:45:37 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Bertram wrote:

>My point is that the _customs_ of the _organization_ are firmly
>rooted in fantasy.  

True. But many of us are now asking: 

(a) Is there an _intrinsic_ _value_ in the fantasy aspects of the
    "customs of the organization"? Are they essential parts of
    the goals of the Society?

(b) If (a) is false, would you not agree that it is reasonable to
    remove as much as possible of the fantasy and replace it with
    authentic stuff?

(c) If (a) is true, does this apply to _everything_ about this
    organization which is rooted in fantasy, or only to some things?

>A quite "authentic" solution to the problem of selecting our kings
>and queens would be to appoint hereditary monarchs -- which doesn't
>make sense given our modern need for fairness and equality of opportunity.

Yes. Some authentic things we don't want to do, because they are
impractical, nasty, illegal, dangerous or too expensive. However,
would you not agree that in these cases, it is better to look for
reasonable period alternatives, than to substitute a 20th century fantasy?
And if we must have an inauthentic system, do you not agree that it should
be designed in a way that is as close as possible to period practices
and/or contributes as well as possible to a medieval atmosphere?

Justin and others have pointed out that the more we learn, the more
we are disturbed by inauthenticity. A newbie perceives "Strip the
Willow" as a medieval dance, but an experienced person finds it
jarringly OOP. With the increased knowledge and experience we have
aquired over these 27 years, the fantasy aspects of the Society's
organization are becoming more and more disturbing.

>Our kings and queens are not the top athletes this 
>season in our local tournament society -- they are monarchs of
>sizeable territories and populations (in the romantic and fantasy
>sense of things).  

Yeah, but one of them has to be the top athlete to get there... and
the Crown Tournament is hardly a thing that happens in secret; it is
one of the biggest events, and the way the King is selected is given
enormous amounts of attention. Even in the fantasy/romantic setting
of the Society, we are never allowed to forget that the King is King
by right of rattan. This means that the romantic aspect of the King and
Queen is *counteracted* by the present system.

>... do you honestly believe that if the SCA had been
>as restrictive as the Civil War re-enactment groups it would be
>as large as it is today?  

Certainly not! I talked about "openness and low treshold" in the very
paragraph you are commenting here.

>The romance/fantasy elements are at the very least the honey that
>draws many people to the Society.

I'd say that romanticism attracts people more than archaeology. But I
do not believe that the aspects of our organization which we have
proposed to change in the recent debate, have to be as inauthentic
as they are. They would *not* lose their romantic flavor if they
became more authentic. 

I also dislike your use of "romance and fantasy" as a single
expression, which seems to indicate that they are largely the same
thing. In my book, they are not. However, I will spare the readers
an extended discussion of this...

For the rest of your message, it seems to boil down to that
we cannot be authentic, because authenticity requires narrowing the
Society down to a specific time and place. Even choosing a single
authentic item like a system of government or awards, will be
inauthentic for some people and authentic for others.

My answer is that this has already happened. Even having Kings and
fighting knights and orders and Kingdom heralds, is inauthentic for
some people. Removing some of the fantasy stuff can hardly aggravate
this situation, because we would still want to choose from different
times and places.

The result I aim at is *not* a fully authentic system built on any
time and place, but rather a romantic system founded on various
authentic and typical western-European medieval traditions and
systems -- and the reason for this desire is that the romance is
enhanced by authenticity. If authenticity did not promote a medieval
atmosphere, I would not be interested in it.

William