HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kls@ohare.Chicago.COM (Karl Swartz)
Subject: Re: El Al Disaster
Organization: Chicago Software Works
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 10:12:40 GMT

In article <92281.220923IO11076@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Naushad Hussain <IO11076@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>List of Airlines that still fly the 747-200's:

...

>Swiss Air?

Not any more.  They had two, acquired c. 1971, but sold them around
the end of 1983 after the first several of their five -300s arrived.

>American???

Never had 'em.  A total of 16 -100s were built for American (-123)
though I've no evidence the last was actually delivered to them.  The
last was sold around 1984.  Subsequently, they acquired a pair of SPs
from TWA (747SP-31) for DFW-NRT.  These last flew for American this
past July.

>It should also be noted that it is the most common of all 747 models.

In terms of orders the -400 surpassed the -200 some time ago, though I
don't think -400 deliveries have yet caught up with the -200.

-- 
Karl Swartz	|INet	kls@ditka.chicago.com
1-415/854-3409	|UUCP	uunet!decwrl!ditka!kls
		|Snail	2144 Sand Hill Rd., Menlo Park CA 94025, USA
"Unix is a fractal thicket." (Mark Barnett)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: pavalin@bnr.ca (Paul Valin)
Subject: Re: Best Timetables (US and Others)
Followup-To: rec.travel.air
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 13:20:32 GMT

pmc@home.merit.edu (Philip M. Chuang) wrote:
> Before CP air swallowed it, Nordair of Montreal had one of the more exotic
> timetables, with explanations in English, French, and Inuit(?)

First Air (Canada) still prints tri-lingual schedules:  English, French
and Inuit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Valin                                     Tel: + 1 613 763 7394
Bell-Northern Research Ltd.                    Email: pavalin@bnr.ca
P.O. Box 3511, Station C
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1Y 4H7               'only my opinions...'
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: El Al Disaster
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<1992Oct8.041745.7218@math.toronto.edu>
	<1b499uINNcrd@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 01:02:57 GMT

Here's the JP entry on the El Al jet (how dare someone interject facts :)

4X-AXG, a 747-258F (SCD), msn 21737/ln 362, was delivered in 1979
(according to UPI reports, March 19, 1979) and had four P&W JT9D-7J
powerplants.
--
Christopher K. Davis      |       NET.INSIGHTS INTO ARTISTIC CRITICISM:
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   | ``[Y]ou don't cure bad art by locking it all up
System Administrator, EFF | in one museum, you cure it by throwing tomatoes
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   | at bad artists.'' --Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com>
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: charleen@ADS.COM (Charleen Bunjiovianna)
Subject: Re: Layover at Singapore - what does one do?
Organization: The Original Estrogen-Crazed Lust Bunnies
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 21:56:20 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.195248.8765@colorado.edu> citrin@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Wayne Citrin) writes:
>
>One thing you might consider doing is sleeping.  There are day rooms at the
>airport for naps.  I realize that when you're passing through someplace new,
>the last thing you want to do is sleep, but consider it as an option.

Actually, after a flight of that length, I'd be delighted to have the 
chance to get horizontal for a couple of hours...  Sleeping in an airliner
seat just isn't the same.

So I think it's a good suggestion.

I know there are rent-by-the-hour sleeping compartments in (someone
correct me) Terminal One at LAX; what about other airports?

Charleen

--
COMPONENT EQUIVALENCY NOTICE: The Subatomic Particles (Electrons,
Protons, etc.) Comprising This Article Are Exactly the Same in Every
Measurable Respect as Those Used in the Articles of Other Poster,
and No Claim to the Contrary May Legitimately Be Expressed or Implied.
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: kls@ohare.Chicago.COM (Karl Swartz)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Age
Organization: Chicago Software Works
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 10:03:46 GMT

In article <CKD.92Oct6231250@loiosh.eff.org> ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:
Kraig> == Kraig R. Meyer <kmeyer@aero.org> 
kls>   == kls@ohare.Chicago.COM (Karl Swartz) said:

kls>     727-51	  3 @ 27.5

kls> The 727-251s are right around the average as are the DC-10s

Kraig> This isn't supposed to be a list of all of Northwest's aircraft,
Kraig> is it?  There must be a mistake in the "727" column.  Northwest
Kraig> has >10 flights on 727's leaving Detroit between 7 and 9:30 a.m.

>No, it wasn't an exhaustive list, just a note that there were a *lot* of
>older (but smaller) airframes in their inventory.  As he said, the
>727-251s, the only ones they're still flying (see my previous post on
>this thread) are younger than the 727-51s (which they've retired
>anyway).

Thanks!  I'm glad at least one person read the text.  I also mentioned
the DC-10s, 747s, and 757s there as well -- the bigger Boeings being
too few in number to sway the average and the DC-10s, like the bigger
727s, having an average age so close to the average for the smaller
planes that they don't sway the overall much either.

>(We have a newer JP than you do, Karl ;-)

How the hell did you manage that?!  8-)  Mine is the 92/93 edition and
it still has three -51s in the fleet.  I even checked AMN since then
and found one of the three gone, but not the other two.  Do you have
the October AMN or the electronic JP?

Trivia question, speaking of 727-51s ... D.B. Cooper jumped out of one
of 'em.  Which one, and what is it doing now?

-- 
Karl Swartz	|INet	kls@ditka.chicago.com
1-415/854-3409	|UUCP	uunet!decwrl!ditka!kls
		|Snail	2144 Sand Hill Rd., Menlo Park CA 94025, USA
"Unix is a fractal thicket." (Mark Barnett)
From: wt00+@andrew.cmu.edu (Wen Tai Tan)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
Subject: Ticket to London...how much?
Date: 13 Oct 92 23:23:48 GMT
Organization: Sophomore, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Hi!

Does anyone know what the best price for an air-ticket to London would
be? And could you also tell me how to go about getting one? I plan to
fly to London from Pittsburgh around the 14th of December. Please reply
to this account as I don't read this B.Board!!

Thanks in advance...!!


Wen
wt00@andrew.cmu.edu
From: mossman@sag1.ssl.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
Subject: Fare Raise? Or Fare Reduction?
Date: 13 Oct 1992 20:30:14 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: mossman@sag1.ssl.berkeley.edu ()
NNTP-Posting-Host: sag1.ssl.berkeley.edu

I'm hearing conflicting stories. I read in the paper last week that the airlines
will most likely reduce fares in the coming months, to attract business as they
did this summer. But now I have just heard that the fares will go on Friday. 
WHat's the story? A bit of both?

Amy Mossman
From: mcshane@ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Michael McShane)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
Subject: wanted: airplane tickets from Philly to Midwest, USA
Date: 16 Oct 92 06:54:20 GMT
Organization: School of Arts and Sciences, UPENN

I would like to purchase r/t airplane tickets from Philly to
Lincoln, NE (or places nearby, such as Omaha or points in Iowa)
leaving sometime near Christmas and returning sometime soon
after. As I am a student, I am more flexible with regard to time
and place than with money.
I would also like to purchase r/t tickets between Philly and
Chicago, for just about any weekend.
Please respond to 
mcshane@ccat.sas.upenn.edu
or to Michael McShane (215) 747-8050.
From: kanekawa@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Nobuyasu Kanekawa)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
Subject: Re: Safety of Japanese airlines
Date: 8 Oct 92 23:25:37 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department

marcush@leland.Stanford.EDU (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
: on another newsgroup in a series of articles someone raised the claim
: that Japanes airlines are four times more risky to fly with than
: US airlines. He refers to fatalities per passenger or some similar
: statistics (he doesn't know anymore exactly how the risk was
: determined).

I think that probability of accident depends on number of landings
or take-offs more than number of passengers or miles. 
Firstly because most of accidents are occurred in landing or take-off
phase in flights, - critical 11 minutes.  Secondly because landing - 
takeoff cycles cause material fatigue of aircrafts.

Japanese airlines have more frequent landings and take-offs in their
domestic flights within tiny islands than US airlines.  Japanese
airlines have the same fatalities per landing or take-off as
others, I HOPE.

By the way, I do not like flights under high temparature condition.
Power of engines and maneuvering force are  decreased because of air
density reduction.  So I make it a rule to take flights in the morning.:-)

Yasu.

-- 
Nobuyasu KANEKAWA  (E-mail address in Japan : kanekawa@hrl.hitachi.co.jp)

-- 
Nobuyasu KANEKAWA  (E-mail address in Japan : kanekawa@hrl.hitachi.co.jp)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: par@teak18.cray.com (Peter Rigsbee)
Subject: Re: Which hub/spoke system is best?
Originator: par@teak18
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:16:19 CDT


In article <1992Oct13.175244.22248@news.mentorg.com>, philip@jetcom (Philip Peake) writes:
> 
> Which is best ? The simple answer is none at all.
> These are only for the benefit of the airlines,
> not passengers.

Not completely true.  Hubs allow for more efficient use of equipment and
people, and probably allow an airline to provide more flights to more
cities than they would with more of an interconnection network.  (Almost
sounds like a commercial. :-)  

If most of your trips start/end at a hub, you benefit (at least in the
number of non-stop flights available).

If you are traveling to/from a non-hub, consider how many connections an
airline would offer *without* a hub and spoke network.  Probably not as
many, or you'd switch airlines mid-trip more (usually longer walks for
connections).

If you are traveling non-hub to non-hub, you probably lose either way.
With hub-and-spoke, you have at least three legs.  With a more connected
network, you might be lucky and have two legs, but may also have three
legs or evan an overnight stay.  Its hard to say.

> When travelling from Europe to the US, I almost always
> avoid US carriers because they force you to go through
> their hub - I don't want to fly to Boston (for example)
> via Chicago.

So don't fly a US carrier that goes through Chicago first.  Fly one that
goes directly to Boston from Europe.  Note that the European airlines use 
the same hub and spoke network.  Try flying Lufthansa or KLM to London 
without going through Germany or the Netherlands.  Isn't this the same
issue?

	- Peter Rigsbee
From: babu@wpi.WPI.EDU (Babu Gopalakrishnan)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
Subject: Re: Pan Am 747s
Date: 10 Oct 1992 18:40:36 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <1992Oct10.132732.3793@cs.brown.edu> aap@cs.brown.edu (Andrea A. Pietracaprina) writes:

>          Where did all the Pan Am 747s go? 
>          Did Delta get them?

I was wondering about that too!  I used to see lots of Pan Am 747's in 
Frankfurt, London, but now they're all replaced by Delta 767s and Tri-Stars!

- Babu


Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Boeing aircraft suffixes (was:  El Al Disaster)
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<twilson.718465488@cunews> <1992Oct8.225714.17450@cc.gatech.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 00:45:01 GMT

PS> == Paulo Santos <pas@marietta.cc.gatech.edu> 

 PS> I have always wanted to know the answers to some questions about
 PS> these suffixes:

 PS> 1. Do they have a name, or are they just "suffixes"?

"customer codes" I believe.

 PS> 2. What is the reason behind these different suffixes?  Is there
 PS> anything fundamentally different between a 747-221 and a 747-222?

There are probably differences in original seat layout, possibly some
differences in the cockpit equipment, and the like.

 PS> 4. Why did the numbering start with 21, went all the way to 99, then
 PS>    back to 01 through 19?  Why weren't 20 and 00 ever used?

The original 707s were the 707-120 series, so they started numbering
customers up above that.  (Of course the prototype was the 367-80 tho.)

-x20 and -x00 are reserved for Boeing as far as I know.  I could dig out
my "Boeing Aircraft since 1916" when I get home and check the appendix.
--
Christopher K. Davis      |       NET.INSIGHTS INTO ARTISTIC CRITICISM:
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   | ``[Y]ou don't cure bad art by locking it all up
System Administrator, EFF | in one museum, you cure it by throwing tomatoes
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   | at bad artists.'' --Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com>
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: ncole@nyx.cs.du.edu (Noah Cole)
Subject: Best Timetables (US and Others)
Organization: Macalester College, St. Paul Minnesota USA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 19:12:54 GMT

I am someone who gathers airline system timetables to have around to look at (If it sounds strange, then it is but I know that others here on rec.travel.air do
the same...).

I have seen many airline timetables, all the ones from US Carriers and I would like to get a descussion going on which tables are the best.. US and Other.

In US Airlines, I think that American Airline's new timetables with seat plans
in the back are really good. They also list the type or airfcraft which not all
airlines do. Delta also lists the type of plane. I liked Dl. ones better when the Widebody flights were BOLD.  Northwest is the smallest with the least ammount of information but they are also good for having the type of plane with the flight listing so I don't have top search into the baclk for the type of plane. I
think that United and USAir are OK.. TWA's is boreing....

Ad for INTERNATIONAL airlines, I think that BA's International Worldwide Timetable is an excellent example is a good timetable. Swissair also has a good one.
KLM is a bit slim, but again (like NW.. funny :-)) has the flights and aircraft
on the same listing...

Let's get someother feedback on this subject...

-Noah Coe
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: altus@leland.Stanford.EDU (Steve Altus)
Subject: Re: Boeing Customer Codes
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 18:07:43 GMT

In article <sjones.718978601@cunews> sjones@alfred.carleton.ca (Stan Jones) writes:
>
>>Add Wardair to that list. :-(
>
>But Wardair didn;t have any Boeings, did they?  All they lefgt to
>Canadian were Airbuses now sold to the Canadian Department of Defense.

in the early eighties Wardair's entire fleet was 747's and DC-10's, i 
think four of one and three of the other but can't remember which was
which.

--steve altus


Newsgroups: rec.travel.air,misc.forsale
From: chang@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Bernard Chang)
Subject: One way (San Diego-->New York (LGA)) ticket for sale.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 21:38:03 GMT

One way plane ticket on UA from San Diego to New York (LGA) for sale.
Ticket date is 10/30 (Friday) and can be changed for $25 if the same
fare class is available. Looking for about $100 or best offer.
Leave mssage at the e-mail account below.

Bernard Chang
chang@c.scs.uiuc.edu
From: deaton@saturn.sdsu.edu (Ed Deaton)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
Subject: Re: Info. on Hotel in Bangkok
Keywords: Bangkok
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:58:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: newshub.1992Oct13.185848.23125
Distribution: na
Organization: San Diego State University, Math Dept.

In April, 1992 I stayed at the CADENA PALACE hotel in Bangkok.  It
is 15 minutes from the airport, very new and quite nice.  The prices were
$40 for twin and $32 for single.  We got the twin for $32 and next week
I got the single for $28.  The resturant in the hotel was good.  Had dinner
and breakfast.

The address is 72/54 Soi Inthamara 1/1 Sutthisan Road, Bangkok.

Tel:  2700514-8 , 2792400, 2783840

I left baggage at the hotel and spent a few days in the north.  When I
returned, got off the bus, the first 5 taxi drivers did not
fknow where the hotel was.  The sixth one lied.  1.5 hours, with many
stops we got to the hotel.  I had forgotten to take the address and
directions in Thai.  I only had an English card.  And I knew better.

Ed Deaton
From: spanga@yocomputo (Span Grad Asst)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
Subject: Info. on Hotel in Bangkok
Date: 8 Oct 1992 18:23:05 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: yocomputo.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Bangkok

In response to the query (Article 5029) on places to stay near
the Don Muong Airport, in Bangkok - there is an Airport hotel
which is just across from the airport via a causeway. But it's
not cheap - over $100 a night.  Look in the Fodor's guide to
Bangkok as I believe there are a few other hotels about 15
minutes from the airport at ~$40/nite.  The lonely planet guide
to Thailand lists one guest house across from the airport at
$5.00 per nite.  However, when we walked across to the
neighborhood adjacent to the airport, everything looked fairly
dirty and crowded and we were unable to find this guesthouse.

You can stay in the airport more than 3 hours.  We ended up
getting a visa for 200 baht ($8)  I belive you must exit the
flight gate area if you are changing airlines.  Let me know if
any questions.

Dan Landis spanga@athena.berkeley.edu
__________sig.alert______
  


Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: tap@cs.toronto.edu (Tony Plate)
Subject: How to sell flight coupons?
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: 16 Oct 92 14:28:15 GMT

I've got US$700 worth of flight coupons from American Airlines
that I recieved for getting bumped.  I don't think I'll have
an opportunity to use them, so I want to try to sell them,
but I don't know where.  Are there any places that will buy
flight coupons (preferably in Toronto)?

Alternatively, if anyone wants to buy them from me, I'll gladly
sell them at a discount.  (They are transferrable; no shady
business involved).

Tony Plate
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Age
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<KMEYER.92Oct5131131@solarium.aero.org>
	<CKD.92Oct6231250@loiosh.eff.org>
	<1992Oct8.100346.9417@ohare.Chicago.COM>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:00:13 GMT

Karl> == Karl Swartz <kls@ohare.Chicago.COM> 

 ckd> (We have a newer JP than you do, Karl ;-)

 Karl> How the hell did you manage that?!  8-) Mine is the 92/93 edition
 Karl> and it still has three -51s in the fleet.  I even checked AMN
 Karl> since then and found one of the three gone, but not the other
 Karl> two.  Do you have the October AMN or the electronic JP?

No, just missed 'em, they were on an earlier page :( but I believe I
remember seeing a note in AMN about it a couple months ago (in the text
rather than the tables).  We don't have the electronic JP (yet).

Got the October AMN last night :)

 Karl> Trivia question, speaking of 727-51s ... D.B. Cooper jumped out
 Karl> of one of 'em.  Which one, and what is it doing now?

N29KA, isn't it now (Key Air)?  We might have seen it (couldn't read the
N number) at BOS a while back.  (Did see the BA "City of <unreadable>"
747-400 more recently, but it was nighttime, no way to tell what tail
number it had, and couldn't read the city to check it that way.)

[subliminal message... send in your votes...
 rec.travel.marketplace and sci.aeronautics.airliners are both being
 voted on...]
--
Christopher K. Davis      |       NET.INSIGHTS INTO ARTISTIC CRITICISM:
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   | ``[Y]ou don't cure bad art by locking it all up
System Administrator, EFF | in one museum, you cure it by throwing tomatoes
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   | at bad artists.'' --Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com>
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: gl1@cec2.wustl.edu (Greg Lyon)
Subject: Re: Southwest -- catch?
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 05:15:54 GMT

Helen Trillian Rose writes:
>I'm considering booking a flight on Southwest Airlines from Los Angeles
>(LAX) to Phoenix (LAX) for an overnight trip while I'm on the west coast
>last week.
>So I called up some airlines to get some prices. All of them said the
>same thing. $108 round trip, no advance purchase. Southwest has flights
>every hour on this route.
>
>So what's the catch? 

Southwest is a 20 year old airline, specializing in frequent, no-frills, low
cost service between short distances.  Southwest flies a very young, all 737
fleet, and has excellent employee relations as well.

The catch ?  Well, there are several.  First, Southwest does not serve meals
of any kind... all you get are peanuts and soft drinks.  There are also no
assigned seats, you board the plane by number (you are given a numbered 
boarding pass when you arrive at the gate).  Finally, Southwest does not
operate a hub and spoke system to any large extent.  This works out to be
beneficial on short trips, but on longer trips may require you to make
several stops or connections.

Southwest prides itself in the "10 minute turnaround"...  having the plane
on the ground for only 10 minutes.  It's quite amazing how they do it, but
believe it or not it does work most of the time.

As a result, Southwest can offer low fares.  For example, before Southwest
started STL-KC service a year or two ago, the fares were $ 150-200 roundtrip
(advance purchase fares) for a 250 mile flight.  Now, the fares are $ 58
roundtrip.

Flying Southwest is a relatively pleasant experience, definitely no worse than
any other airline...

Greg

Oh yeah, Southwest also does not have interline baggage transfers either.



-- 
*******************************************************************************
Greg Lyon		             	         Student Union Attorney General
gl1@cec2.wustl.edu			                       Clinton/Gore '92 
Washington University in St. Louis - Site of the First 1992 Presidential Debate
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: cid@athena.mit.edu (Derek H Cedillo)
Subject: Service bulletin by Boeing (was Re: El Al Disaster)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 02:01:04 GMT


pmc@home.merit .edu writes:

>Can someone with the New JP's verify this for me?  I believe both the El Al
>and the China Air Cargo 747's were -200-F's with Pratt and Whitney engines.
>Is this true?  If so does will the Boeing Service Bulletin cover 747's with
>GE or RR engines?  Since I'm pretty sure the Rolls engines have a different
>pylon.

From what I read, the service bulletin included both Rolls Royce and
Pratt & Whitney, but it did not mention GE.  Why I dont know.


Derek
Newsgroups: rec.travel.air
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Airline safety stats.
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 01:30:30 GMT

I remember reading about 9 months ago about the safety stats of various 
airlines around the globe.  The stats listed "fatalities per passenger
carried" and fatalities per flight. The problem is, I can't find the magazine
in my pile of rubbish. If anyone knows the reference (probably Feb 92
or thereabouts, and I think it was a travel mag) could you please send it to
me.  I can post if anyone wants it.

-Eric

eap@phase.stanford.edu


Newsgroups: rec.travel.air