From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: ***MoJ: Proof 1: The Amazing Prophecy***
Date: 25 Jan 93 11:34:11 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

In article <93022.100823RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com writes:
>This is in response to Vijay's claim that Daniel 9:25-27 prove the
>messiahship of Jesus: In his argument Vijay uses Nehemiah 2:1 to suggest
>that the counting of years (69x7) should proceed from 445 B.C.E. The
>argument is very weak and biased to the core. Why should one count from
>the 20th year of Artaxerxes's rule? The vision in Daniel has nothing to
>do with Artaxerexes's period. In Dan. 9:1 he mentioned that the year of
>his prophecy was the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus. Why not
>then take that year as the beginning of the year count? You simply can't
>take any year you like in order to prove the messianic prophecy, if at all,

Is it not clear from Daniel 9 that Daniel RECEIVED the prophecy in 538 BC
but the prophecy doesnot start until the going forth of a decree to restore and
rebuild Jerusalem in 445 BC.?

>of the verse Dan. 9:25-27. The other important fact which some of these
>zealous christians try to dodge about is the very fact that there has
>not been any Persian king, named Darius, who was SON of Ahasuerus. The
>author(s) of the book of Daniel simply screwed up here. While it is BELIEVED
>that Daniel was taken into captivity during the time of Nebuchadnezzar and
>lived through the time of Cyrus and possibly Darius, a distant relative of
>Cyrus, Darius was NOT the son of Ahasuerus. Vijay's historical dates are also
>wrong. He said "Any version which puts Cyrus as the anointed prince starts
>at 586 BCE, the date of the destruction of Jerusalem. But such versions fail
>since Daniel states the year of the prophecy in verse 1, as the first year
>of Darius the Mede, i.e. 538 B.C..." The fact of the matter is Jerusalem was
>destroyed in 586 B.C, when Cyrus the Great was not even born. He defeated
>the Babylonians and captured Jerusalem in 538 B.C.E. After his death, there
>was a brief period of turmoil relating to the ascension to the throne, and
>eventually Darius, who is related to Cyrus, through Cambysses, ascended to
>the throne. Darius ruled for a much longer time and was a noble king, much
>   in common with his cousin - Cyrus. Any book of history on Persia will clear
>the ignorance of Vijay in this matter.
>
>Cyrus, indeed, was known as Masih or Messiah by the Jews (Isa. 45:1). Here, I
>would like to bring to your attention the fact that the belief or faith
>of Cyrus (as known through the Behistun inscription) was much in common with
>that of the children of Israel, i.e., belief in one God without any association
>. He was a follower of a non-Jewish prophet Zoroaster. (Please, note that the
>current belief of Zorastrians have gone through several changes, and it may be
>difficult for many to discern the truth within its Books from falsehood. These
>changes were mostly as a result of destruction of their scriptures by Alexander
>the great during the 4th century B.C., and also the penetration of older Magian
>beliefs into the teachings of Zoroaster.)
>
>If the prophecy of Daniel, if at all, was fulfilled it was the first 7x7 = 49
>years (586-49=537 B.C) (ca. 538 B.C) when the jews were rescued from the
>Babylonian bondage. 

How can a prophecy start before it was given out?
If it was given in 538 BC how can it start in 586 BC???
How? Tell me if you know!

>(Note that the notion of 360 days in a year is totally
>wrong. G. Friedenberg has shown that the Jewish practice has been to round the
>years by adding a leap month so that solar year is taken care of every third
>year. The Muslim Arabs, their cousins, have used lunar calendar, which is 3%
>less than a solar year, without any adjustment, i.e., the month of Ramadan-
>the month of fasting, rotates from summer to winter, etc.) The use of 360
>days for a year, to the best of my knowledge, is unheard of in the middle-east.
>It probably only exists in the fertile minds of christian missionaries to
>prove the messianic claims about Jesus, the son of Mary. Even if one were to
>accept the 360 days=1 year argument, for the sake of argument, where is the
>fulfillment of the prophecy through Jesus? And why should one count from the
>twentieth year of Artaxerxes's rule (445 B.C) and why not 528 B.C or 515/516 BC
>(the latter date being the year when the Temple was rebuilt)? One cannot simply
>pick a number at one's whims to prove a certain prophecy?

You have answered your own question here. The prophecy says to start
at the rebuilding of Jerusalem not the Temple.  No one is picking
numbers from anywhere except Jewish texts.
>
>The other question that any non-christian can pose is if one WEEK in those pro-
>phecies mean 7 years (i.e., 1 DAY=1 YEAR), how do you account for Daniel 8:14,
>where it mentions 2300 days for the sanctuary to be cleansed? Should one consi-
>der this to mean 2300 years? (Note the temple was built after 70 years, i.e.,
>586-516=70.) The second temple, for your information, was destroyed by Titus
>in 70 C.E. How does a christian account for Daniel 8:14 in the light of prophe-
>tic prophecy?
>
>----
>H. Siddiqui.

This is the kind of thing you can read about in many good Christian 
'End Times' books.

Vijay