From: ajs9462@zeus.tamu.edu (SIMON, ANTHONY JOE)
Subject: Re: Ruby's alibi around the time of the assassination
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:57:00 GMT

In article <schuck.715018474@sfu.ca>, Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes...
Bruce Shcuk: >>>>>>> & >>> & >

Tony Simon:  >>>> & >>

>>>>>>>There were witnesses who saw Oswald other than on 6th floor before and
>>>>>>>after the assassination.
>>> 
>>>>There is only one witness that you provided and she was uncertain of the time.
>>> 
>>>She was *very* certain of the time. 12:15.
>>> 
> 
>>However, if we believe Roffman, then she claimed it was 12:25. Do you state
>>that Roffman is incorrect? He did say it was her statement in her own words.
>>If she later stated to Summers it was 12:15, then she gives conflicting
>>testemony and therefore, she is not certain as to the time.
> 
>We've been over this and you already know the answer, but I'll give
>it again.
> 
>Roffman was using an FBI Report of their interview with Carolyn
>Arnold. The Warren Commission did not get Mrs. Arnold to testify, so
>we don't have her *unfiltered* testimony until Summers was researching
>his book "Conspiracy".
>When Anthony Summers showed Mrs. Arnold her FBI *testimony* she said
>they had completely misquoted her. I believe *her* because the FBI has
>been proven to have destroyed and altered evidence in the JFK
>assassination.
> 
>Mrs. Arnold said she saw Oswald at 12:15. ANd she is *very* certain.

If you read Roffman correctly, he uses TWO reports. The first is a FBI report
of what she said in the FBI agent's words. I do NOT refer to this one. The
second one is a statement made by Mrs. Arnold in which she claims it was
12:25 pm. Roffman says that the second statement is in her own words. Did
Anthony Summers show her both statements? If Roffman is telling the truth, then
she is UNCERTAIN as to the time, becuase she tells Summers it was 12:15. If
Roffman is wrong when he says that the second statement is in her own words,
then Roffman is misleading everybody who reads his book. Which is it?!

How was Mrs. Arnold so certain that it was 12:15 or a little later? I do not
have access to Summers's book. Explain why she is so certain. When the Dallas
Morning News ad person knew Ruby was at the DMN at 12:10, he claimed that he
knew because it was past deadline and he looked at the clock to see how late
Ruby was. That's why he is sure. Can Mrs. Arnold be that sure?

>>The Police Officer who ran to the top of the grassy knoll said the man
>>who had Fake SS id looked like Ruby.
>> 
>>Victoria Adams, a TSBD employee, said Ruby was outside the TSBD immediately
>>after the assassination questioning some of the witnesses.
>>
>>From Warren Commission Hearings Vol. 6 pp 386-393:
>> 
>>Miss Adams: There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston
>>            and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat,
>>            and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was,
>>            because he was questioning people as if he was a police
>>            officer....and this man was asking questions very
>>            effaciously  and we said, "I guess
>>            he may be a reporter," and later on on television, 
>>            there was a man that looked very similar to him, 
>>            and he was identified as Ruby.
>> 

>Ruby's face and hat are *very* distinguishable.

To you, because you've seen pictures of him and have reason to remember his
face and hat. If you look at people of that period, they do wear similar hats
and clothes. You notice that Mrs. Adam's statement said she saw someone
who looked like Ruby asking questions. That doesn't mean it was him. It is
no crime to look like Jack Ruby.

>> I want some evidence that someone who knew him had
>>seen him there.
> 
>Of course you do. Your standard of evidence changes depending on
>whether it was Oswald or Ruby. 

My standards haven't changed. Did Mrs. Arnold know Oswald? Was she sure of
the time? How was she sure? There are questions about how well she knew the
time. Also, how well did she know Ruby? There was another man at the TSBD who
bore a resemblance to Oswald. Could she have been confused at the time and then
over the years convince herself that it was Oswald? These are distinct
possibilities.

In Ruby's case, I'm saying it was possible for Ruby to be at Dealey Plaza and
get back to the DMN (until I have further evidence to prove one way or the
other). The evidence of the newspaper article does say that some people gave
some vague indications that he was there the whole time. However, statements
like that aren't enough.

     So, I am saying that it was possible for Oswald to be on the 6th floor of
the TSBD (until I have further evidence to *prove* one way or the other). He
could have been elsewhere in the building. However, this does not prove his
innocence or guilt. Mrs. Arnold's statements are conflicting until you can
prove that her written statement that Roffman mentions is false. Mrs.
Adam's statement that she saw someone who looked like Ruby isn't enough
to put Ruby at Dealey Plaza. Is there corroboration for Mrs. Adams's story? The
policeman's statement that the fake-S.S. Agent looked like Ruby isn't enough
either. When the Secret Service Agent talked to the policeman, did he show him
some credentials? If so, what was the "fake" name? If not, then why did the
policeman just trust him?

> 
>For Ruby you want someone who knows him to have seen him in Dealey
>Plaza. You know , if the Criminal Justice System required that witnesses
>knew the criminal before they saw him commit the crime, the prisons
>would be empty. :)

Yes, I want someone to have known Ruby. If the person that Mrs. Adams claims
is acting like a reporter were to distinguish himself from other reporters,
then I'd have a better reason to believe her. However, there were other
reporters at the scene. So, why should she remember this one better than any
others. You'll note that Mrs. Adams didn't say that the person she saw was
Ruby, but that he looked very similar to Ruby. That doesn't make the man Ruby.
It just makes him similar in appearance.

On the other hand, criminals who are seen committing a crime tend to give
people a better reason to remember them, that's why people can pick them
out in a line-up.

>As I've said before, there were witnesses who saw Ruby in Dealey Plaza
>when he claims [with no corroboration] to be somewhere else.
> 
>*Nobody* saw Oswald on the 6th floor after 11:55.

Again, you confuse "proof of someone being somewhere" with the "possiblity that
someone is somewhere". Go read a logic book.

Tony Simon
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