From: jonh@david.wheaton.edu (Jonathan Hayward)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Extempore prayer
Date: 2 Oct 92 05:06:22 GMT
Organization: Wheaton College, IL

In article <Sep.30.01.48.48.1992.7521@geneva.rutgers.edu> norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak) writes:
>In article <Sep.27.21.11.53.1992.626@athos.rutgers.edu>, jonh@david.wheaton.edu (Jonathan Hayward) writes:
>
>|> When I pray outside of prescribed forms, however, it is acting _in_the_Holy_
>|> _Spirit._ The Holy Spirit is the check on me producing errors that would taint
>|> my beliefs and my understanding of God.
>
>But how can you account for all the well-intentioned people who started out 
>as orthodox Christians and ended up in doctrinal errors?  It would be 
>presumptuous to say that they sought the assistance of the Holy Spirit less than 
>you.

I know that this isn't what you wanted to hear, but the people who I have seen
end up in doctrinal errors _have_ tended away from using the assistance of the
Holy Spirit.  Among the doctrinal errors I have seen, all that I can recall
(which does not imply all end of discussion, just all that I can recall) have
been forgetting the way of the Holy Spirit, forgetting to ask and pray for
guidance.

I have seen very few heresies that do not look reasonable.  To take the one
that declares Jesus to be half man and half God as an example: I could produce
convincing arguments, so long as the Holy Spirit stays out of the picture.  Ex:
You sin, I sin, we all sin.  Sin is an intrinsic attribute of humanity.
Therefore, if Jesus was really completely human, he would have had to sin and
therefore not completely be God.  The human and divine natures cannot coexist.
So at least part of his nature was not completely human and or divine.  Blah
blah blah...  clearly, Jesus was not both completely human and completely
divine.

The error in heresies tends to lie in too much reliance on self.  Most of them
are in accord with parts of Scripture and parts of God's teaching, as a matter
of fact most of them are in accord with most of Scripture and most of God's
teaching - Satan would have no use for them if they were not convincing.  They
come in attempts to derive meaning (oftentimes by ever so slightly twisted
logic) that do not depend on the God.  The beginning is not "Spirit, guide me."
but rather "I will think and use the power of my reason."

When Joseph the interpreter of dreams was asked by the Pharoah if he could
interpret, his answer was "I cannot, but God will give Pharoah the answer he
desires."

God has given me the gift of reason, and it is something that I try to use to
his glory.  But if I take it and twist it and say that it is enough to let me
interpret (standing on its own without God), and don't ask God's aid in making
my mind clear and showing me what I wish to know, then I insult God and injure
myself.

The knowledge and wisdom that I have been given is knowledge and wisdom that I
have been *given*, not by my power or merit.

How many errors have you seen that start by asking God for wisdom?

>I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't direct you away from error and
>into the truth; but it almost sounds as if you were claiming a sort of 
>infallibility.  You don't really intend that, do you?

Well, the answer is a resouding yes, and... no.

I am most definitely not infallible, subject to sin and darkness like everyone
else.

*BUT* when I trust God and ask him to guide and empower me in my actions (not
necessarily "help me do x, y, and z", but rather "If it is your will, help me
to do x, y, and z"), then he does not fail me.  He sometimes leads me in
directions different from the ones I want to go in, and shows me things I
didn't want to see, but always teaches me.  When I am acting in the Holy
Spirit, then at that moment I am kept pure and not deceived.

As to when I am and am not acting in the Holy Spirit - that is something that
God can explain to you and I can not.  I will, if you want, pray that either
God show me my error or show you what I have failed to place in words, but I
cannot place the final link in place if you have not seen it.

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