HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: New case for EFF, ACLU, and CPSR
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:32:54 GMT
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org

>John Nagle (nagle@netcom.com) wrote:
>:       I'm suprised the EFF is exercised about this.  The people involved
>: seemed to have been doing something legal, but stupid, in a private mall,
>: and they were hassled, but not arrested or injured.  What's the big deal?

The First and Fourth Amendment are not limited to nonstupid exercises of
one's rights. Whether the mall is private is irrelevant--the Secret
Service doesn't own the mall.


--Mike





-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Xref: sparky comp.org.eff.talk:9169 comp.unix.bsd:11762 comp.unix.wizards:5632 comp.org.usenix:1381 gnu.misc.discuss:4616
From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,comp.unix.bsd,comp.unix.wizards,comp.org.usenix,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: ENOUGH! Re: BSDI/USL Lawsuit -- More Bad News for Human Beings...
Date: 24 Jan 93 02:49:58 GMT
Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <1993Jan23.145950.681@nobeltech.se> ppan@nobeltech.se (Per Andersson) writes:
>In article <MIKE.93Jan22144301@cuba.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael Gschwind) writes:
>>
>>Wait a moment! Who copied design, algorithms, data structures,... from
>>whom? UCB from ATT/USL? Or ATT/USL from ATT? 
>
>Another amusing thought - how 'unix'-like is Plan 9 ? Will Bell Labs be sued
>by USL ? I somehow get the feeling that these guys HAVE seen Unix sourcecode.
>Will this prohibit Plan-9 from ever beeing distributed ?
>

"Plan-9 is not UNIX" sez Mr. Pike. Surely that will be good enough for 
the courts.  They even took out the "you are not expected to understand
this" comment that made V6 UNIX a success.

-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: tsdavies@rodan.syr.EDU (T.S. Davies)
Subject: Re: WIRED - new magazine dealing with technology and where it's going
Reply-To: T.S. Davies <tsdavies@mailbox.syr.edu>
In-reply-to: scottw@src4src.linet.org's message of 18 Jan 93 23:26:08 GMT
Organization: Sam Hill Cabal, DS
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 03:18:37 EST


SW> = Scott Weintraub <scottw@src4src.linet.org>


SW> I saw a little short on CNN FutureWatch about a magazine that
SW> should hit the streets on January 26.  It's called WIRED and looks
SW> like it's going to report about and discuss many of the same
SW> issues the EFF has encountered.
...

SW> The artwork is very Mondo 2000ish with funky digital spreads and
SW> blocky pixelized drawings.  It looks like it's going to be a great
SW> piece of work.  The cover price is $4.95 and unfortunately, it's
SW> only scheduled to come out bi-monthly at the time being.  I'll be
SW> the first at the newstand

Does anyone know if this magazine has any relationship with Mark
Ziesing and Andy Watson's book/zine, _Journal/Wired_?   Three issues
of _Journal/Wired_ have appeared, each one larger and more expensive
than the last, and each containing articles on science fiction, mostly
of the "slipstream" variety, opinion pieces by people like Bruce
Sterling and Lucius Shepard, and pieces on computer-related subjects
(for example, one of Michael A. Banks' "Through the Wire" columns
appeared as a special issue of _EFFector Online_).

--
       "Go on, girl!  You'll never get a better chance to buy Jif at
		     this price.  _Carpe diem_, babe!"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    T.S. Davies		tsdavies@mailbox.syr.edu		SHC, DS
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: raoul@eplunix.UUCP (Nico Garcia)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: New case for EFF, ACLU, and CPSR
Date: 24 Jan 93 03:42:29 GMT
Organization: Eaton-Peabody Lab, Boston, MA

In article <1993Jan23.034834.8869@mp.cs.niu.edu>,
tk0jut1@mp.cs.niu.edu (jim thomas) writes:
> 
> In article <JMC.93Jan22123256@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>>Please explain what the computer enthusiasts were doing that aroused
>>the suspicions or ire of these authorities, justified or not.
> 
> No one is withholding information. This incident has been widely 
> discussed since early November (see, e.g., CuD 4.57). The

What is "withheld" is that the magazine mentioned, which the kids apparently
read and which was the mutual interest of the kids present, is called "2600".
The original article said "... 2600 magazine readers...." "2600" is
apparently a hackers' magazine (yes, I use the common newer meaning of
hacker here, not the original one).

Someone who's read an issue might volunteer more details? I don't even know
if it's paper or on-line.

I don't think anything was withheld. I just think that a little more
background would have explained the SS's interest, while showing that they
were *searched* and *dispersed* because of what they *read* and because they
were *assembled*, not for any specific crime. That is terrifying, and is
exactly what needs to be supported and clarified legally.

			Nico Garcia
			CIRL/MEEI
			eddie.mit.edu!eplunix!raoul
-- 
			Nico Garcia
			CIRL/MEEI
			eddie.mit.edu!eplunix!raoul
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: EFF and its growing pains...
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 04:51:45 GMT

In article <1k1l0r$agg@agate.berkeley.edu> peterme@ocf.berkeley.edu (Peter Merholz) writes:
>>
>>Why the "Before"? Can't we be concerned with both at the same time?
>
>Err, no. Not unless the EFF and affiliated organizations number active
>workers in the hundreds, which I very much doubt.

We must simply disagree then. I don't believe an organization's workers must
number in the hundreds before it can do more than one thing at a time.

>For the reasons cited above. Infrastructure improvement is important, but
>also more likely to be taken care of. Connecting the masses is far more
>important.

How are you distinguishing between connecting the masses and
infrastructure improvement? EFF's efforts have been focused on connecting
the masses.


--Mike





-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: pjs269@tijc02.uucp (Paul Schmidt)
Subject: Re: EFF and its growing pains...
Organization: Advocates for Self-Government - Davy Crockett Chapter
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 13:17:14 GMT

strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
: 
: Competition only works when a particular set of circumstances is
: present--for details see any introductory economics textbook. Those
: circumstances aren't present in the case of large-scale facilities such as
: the NREN or the national Supercomputer network.

"Economics on Trial" by Mark Skousen is an excellent criticism of 
introductory economics testbooks.  Natural monopolies usually cannot exist 
over the long period but government supported monopolies last much longer 
than they would if left alone to natural market forces.
-- 
Paul Schmidt: Advocates for Self-Government, Davy Crockett Chapter President
706 Judith Drive, Johnson City, TN 37604, (615)283-0084, uunet!tijc02!pjs269
"Freedom seems to have unleashed the  creative energies of the people -- and
leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress."  --  U.N. report
From: john@iastate.edu (John Hascall)
Subject: Re: EFF and its growing pains...
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:40:49 GMT

BT> == Brad Templeton <brad@clarinet.com>
JH> == John Hascall <john@iastate.edu>
CD> == ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)

BT> Of course we should have dedicated data connections to our homes, and
BT> since it's easy to do it, we should have it now, and cheaply.  And we
BT> would if there were competition at the local level, probably.

JH> Of course we should, if "we" is you and I, but you and I are not Joe
JH> Average Citizen, we are Joe Small Niche.

CD> Only because Joe A. Citizen doesn't realize he has a computer in his home
CD> already.  Super Mario Gopher, anyone?

Oh, puh-lease.  What exactly is Joe Average Citizen, (working class,
mid-forties, closest thing to a home-computer is the microcontroller
in the microwave), going to do with ``Super Mario Gopher''?  If the
ever had one of those blasted Nintendo's in the house I imaging they
were thrilled to stow it in the attic when Junior left home.

I think it's all to easy for people to forget that college graduates
are still a smallish minority.

John
-- 
John Hascall                   ``An ill-chosen word is the fool's messenger.''
Systems Software Engineer
Project Vincent
Iowa State University Computation Center  +  Ames, IA  50011  +  515/294-9551
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: LOOK AT THIS MESS!
From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:48:57 EST
Distribution: world
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

david.chessler@grapevine.lrk.ar.us (David Chessler) writes:
> On 01-23-93 (01:12), John F. Whitehead, in a message to All
> about: "Re: LOOK AT THIS MESS!", stated the following:
> 
> JFW>For example, it's unreasonable to think that if you have an old 
>    >car that can't go over 30 mph that everyone else should drive 
>    >slower on the interstate for your convenience, even if 
>    >(especially if) your
> 
> I have a computer capable of advanced graphics.  I am grossly
> limited in using INTERNET-USENET mail services because everything
> is limited to the capabilities of a dumb character-mode-only
> 7-bit ascii terminal.  Why?  Because that is the least common
> denominator on big systems.  

uh, wrong. it's because you don't have the software to support the
advanced standards. it doesn't matter what kind of hardware you
have if the right software isn't at hand.

> So I don't put ANSI-art or sound into my messages. By your argument 
> I should, and say "it's *your* problem."  (note use of * instead of 
> the ANSI escape code for underlining text, the 7-bit "graphics" for 
> my "signature")

for one thing, ANSI art and sound are not standards in this realm.
they are confined primarily to IBM PCs & clones. the internet has
hundreds of different types of computers connected to it, and standards
(like MIME) have evolved to handle everything from graphics, to sound,
to typeset documents. if you want to stick with the standards declared
by some institute, fine. but don't berate us for not using them.
we've got better things to do. (mainly, making standards that get -used-
worldwide & on more than one platform.)

so instead of trying to limit other people, i'd suggest you try something
constructive. write a better news reader that handles long messages.
find a MIME implementation for your platform & figure out how to integrate
it with your current software. these are things that people could actually
use & would increase the level of technology for your system, which is
always a good thing. basically, put your money where your mouth is.

jason, who used Fido himself for a while, so don't consider this a flame,
but some (hopefully) helpful advice from someone who would genuinely like
to see internet standards filter down to other networks.

--
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
`,`      "Innocence, joy, and squeezable fun for everyone" - TOYS       `,`
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu ,`,`,`
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: EFF and its growing pains...
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:53:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.203158.12070@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
:>I just don't see where your current priorites come from.  What's the
:>point?  Where's the relevance to the computing community?
:
:If your position is that text-only contact is primarily all we'll ever
:need, then it will seem that better infrastructure is indeed irrelevant.
:
:But text, for all its versatility, is still fairly narrow in bandwidth.
:When you ask why we need more, I think of the guys who told me in the late
:'70s that desktop computers were silly--if they needed to program, they'd
:just use their HP calculators, which ran BASIC.
:
:For an example of what a world of high-bandwidth communications will be
:like, I often refer people to David Brin's novel EARTH.

How ridiciculous and completely unrealistic.  I thought your platform
was about computer literacy and access for everyone, not putting a
high-speed infrastructure in place for the technological elite to play
with better and better toys.  Before you start thinking about folks
like us finding better ways to burn bandwidth, how about thinking of
ways to get the masses connected - old big ears and his 'electronic
town halls' etc.  The first big step is *years* away and you're kidding
yourself if you think we're going to skip the text/bulletin-board-like
environment first.

Is getting a significant percentage of the US poplation net connected
one of your priorites?  If so, what percentage?  In how many years?
If so, how do your current initiatives (like pushing high-bandwidth
access, and presumably high-cost computers to make good use of it)
fit into that picture?

G
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Internet as a natural monopoly (was: Re: EFF and its growing pains...)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: inet
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 03:43:46 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.213838.27204@eff.org> fig@eff.org (Cliff Figallo) writes:
>
>I respect your economic background, although I do not for a minute buy
>the idea that economics is a science and that, hence, your theories

Nobody claims infallibility, just useful insights which, if ignored, can
lead to trouble. As for being a science, much of economics is mathematical
and axiomatic, and one can get Nobel prizes in it these days. You mustn't
blame economists for the blunders of politicians or ignoramuses masquerading
as economists and making their ideological cant up as they go along.

The hand of the telephone interests was revealed today in a pretty good
front page article "U.S. Eyes Information Fast Lane; Should High-Tech
'Highway' be Public or Private?" in "Investors Business Daily" which said,
in part:

"No private investor was willing to build the interstate highway system, but
once it was built a lot of other roads connected to it. This new very
broad-band high-capacity network, most people think, ought to be built by
the federal government." [Vice-President Gore, making the lighthouse
argument.]

and from the article's writer:

"But while the regional Bell telephone companies applaud (moves to allow
local phone companies to put in fiber to carry high-capacity traffic), they
also note that they are still barred from providing video programming, which
is key to making high-capacity networks financially viable."

That's what it's all about, Cliff. EFF is being suckered into an advocacy
which is really about telcos competing with cable for entertainment. They
aren't interested in the wonders of free competition for high-capacity
Internet traffic, and if what EFF seems to be advocating comes to pass, the
entertainment dog will wag our tail, to our great and continuing
disadvantage. Wake up!

Al Gore understands this well, which is why he and most others support a
Federally-funded backbone with quality and performance specifications, put
out to competitive bid and awarded to a single offeror who gives "us" the
best deal.

David
-- 
David Sternlight
RIPEM Public Key on server  --  Consider it an envelope for your e-mail

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: kranitz@sol.med.ge.com (Wesley Kranitz  x7-4409)
Subject: Re: New case for EFF, ACLU, and CPSR
Organization: Nowhere, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 22:24:29 GMT

John Nagle (nagle@netcom.com) wrote:
:       I'm suprised the EFF is exercised about this.  The people involved
: seemed to have been doing something legal, but stupid, in a private mall,
: and they were hassled, but not arrested or injured.  What's the big deal?

: 					John Nagle

It's just so that they can look like their still for Civil liberties
instead of for the big guy's who are paying them. If the big flap over
what they did when they got rid of various people had not occured, I 
doubt that they would have persued the matter. 

This is all my opinon, of course.

Wes
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: rita@eff.org (Rita Marie Rouvalis)
Subject: Re: MAJOR CHANGES AT THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION
Originator: rita@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:20:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan15.213129.1471@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>In article <1993Jan15.203558.16109@news.eng.convex.com> gardner@convex.com (Steve Gardner) writes:
>	Okay, let them post their side of the story to the net where we
>	can all see it.  Do they still have their accounts?  


	Of course I still have my account.  The reason I've been
unusually quiet all week is that I have been out of the country on my
honeymoon.  Off-line, off-culture, the whole nine yards.

	I'm still working through all the messages, but I think Cliff
has answered just about everything so far in a very honest,
straightforward manner that I'd be hard-pressed to add to.


Rita



Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: EFF and its growing pains...
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 05:08:45 GMT


Mike Godwin still misses the basic point that we are talking about a single,
large capital facility with economies of scale in the NREN. If a voucher or
other system were used, with individual choice from among competing
networks, the total funds available to any one network would be much less
than the total available to NREN, and there would be much duplication of
personnel, functions, advertising, and hardware, leading to a big dead
weight loss. Costs would rise and the total cost to the taxpayer would be
considerably higher than it is now, all in the name of some
ill-thought-through notion of competition when in fact there is a "natural
monopoly" in the economist's sense.

Just so with today's telephone systems for long distance. MCI, Sprint and
AT&T all duplicate personnel, advertising and marketing, and even some
technical facilities that don't vary with load. Thus the total cost to the
telephone user has been at least tripled for those components, leading to
higher bills than would otherwise result.

Competition only works when a particular set of circumstances is
present--for details see any introductory economics textbook. Those
circumstances aren't present in the case of large-scale facilities such as
the NREN or the national Supercomputer network.

David
-- 
David Sternlight
RIPEM Public Key on server  --  Consider it an envelope for your e-mail
From: betsys@cs.umb.edu (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: EFF and its growing pains...
Date: 22 Jan 93 19:16:57 GMT
	<1993Jan21.172021.5930@netcom.com> <1993Jan21.202037.5393@eff.org>
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston

In article <1993Jan21.202037.5393@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:

   What, precisely, are you saying will prevent these researchers from
   getting the benefits of the NREN if universities can bid for services
   rather than being forced to rely on a single, government-run backbone
   provider? Could you spell out the scenario under which this dire
   event occurs?

We've already got this. We're a state university and we buy our
service from NEARnet, the same way that local businesses do, and
NEARnet is negotiating ALTErnet and CIX connections. 
   Anyway, we don't have a *problem*. We *have* free access and
commercial alternatives and there doesn't seem to be any threat to it.
NEARnet just went to T3 connectivity and everyone is happy...
   Unlike the BBS world where civil rights are being threatened left and
right, and unlike the losses of civil rights internal to various
organizations.

  If you are lobbying for university rights, there should be
university involvement. If you are lobbying for small business rights,
I don't think what you are working on is a high priority for small
businesses. If you are lobbying for individual access to the net,
well, the past few years have seen an explosion of individuals able to
access the net, and again, high-bandwidth access isn't an issue yet. 

  I think that what you are doing is only going to benefit a few
entrepeneurs who are planning to develop high-bandwidth services.
Entrepeneurs like Mitch Kapor, who says openly "I am trying to make
the world a better place for other Mitch Kapor's"

  It may be worth doing but it is NOT A CIVIL LIBERTIES ISSUE and you
all started the EFF to be a CIVIL LIBERTIES organization. You want to
play a new game, you really should disband EFF and start a new
organization.


 

--
System Administrator                  Internet: betsys@cs.umb.edu
MACS Dept, UMass/Boston               Phone   : 617-287-6448
100 Morrissey Blvd                    Staccato signals
Boston, MA 02125-3393                      of constant information....
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk