HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sgm@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Steven G. Myerson)
Subject: Re: Yet another place the blame.
Organization: Raytheon Submarine Signal Division
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:55:18 GMT

In article <7470@tivoli.UUCP> Eric Taylor writes:

* In article <1993Jan4.190727.9259@midway.uchicago.edu>, Jeremy Mathers writes:
* |> In article <7405@tivoli.UUCP> Eric Taylor writes:
* |> >In article <1993Jan3.202515.27062@midway.uchicago.edu>, Jeremy Mathers writes:
* |> >|> Vulnerability: Unknown.  Imps, West dealer.
* |> >|> 

West opened the bidding with this hand:

* |> >|> W) Qx,Qxx,KJx,Kxxxx

* |> >|>      1D (1) - 1S (!) - X - 2S
* |> >|>      3C     - P      - 3S - P
* |> >|>      4C     - P      - 6C (all pass)
* |> >|> 
* |> ...
* |> Precision is light opener.
* 
* I realize that, but some 11 point hands are better than
* others, and this one is pretty bad with points
* scattered thoughout the spectrum.
* 
* Are there any "standard" guidelines in Precision
* about the quality of points when opening or
* is it "any 11 points"?

It's pretty much left up to the individuals on how agressive
they want to be. I play a strong club system, and tend to be
quite agressive in the bidding, but I would not open this
hand in first or second seat.

Now if one of my major suit queens was a the diamond queen instead,
I would have no qualms about opening this hand 1D.

Steve Myerson (sgm@sgfb.ssd.ray.com)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: taylor@foraker.tivoli.com (Eric Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: Computer Bridge and the Law
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:57:16 GMT

In article <7784@tivoli.UUCP>, taylor@foraker.tivoli.com (Eric Taylor) writes:
|> Should a computer bridge game allow a player to make
|> an insufficient bid?
|> 
|> Are insufficient bids part of the game or are all of the
|> rules regarding them merely an attempt to control the
|> damage caused by them?


From Thomas Permutt:

No.  The penalty prescribed in the Laws for an insufficient bid
(and all the other penalties in the Laws) are precisely, as you say,
an attempt to redress the inadvertent harm a player commits by an
infraction.  It is impermissible to infringe the Laws intentionally
with the aim either of getting away with it or getting a bigger profit
than the penalty:  this is spelled out in the Laws.





Back to me:

So I guess the question is, should a player be allowed to make a
mistake like this?

We are certainly allowed to misplay and misbid the hands and have
our opponents take advantage of it.  :-)

On related notes, in a computer game, should a player be
forced to wait after a skip bid warning?
Should a minimum overall tempo be given to the bidding?
Should a computer game give warning to a player that
his partner has significantly varied the tempo and that
the players next bid will be subject to the 75% rule
(or 25% or whatever)?
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: davidm@questor.Rational.COM (David Moore)
Subject: Re: Reading List?
Keywords: books
Organization: Rational
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 20:24:53 GMT

baseggio@deshaw.com (Franco Baseggio) writes:

>In article <1i87nnINNpv@im4u.cs.utexas.edu> varvel@cs.utexas.edu (Donald A. Varvel) writes:
>>   b. It's hardly a beginner's text, but Kantar's Defensive Bridge Play
>>      Complete, "the big red book," is required reading for intermediate
>>      players.  There are books by Kantar and Kelsey on defense that are
>>      good after you've gotten through the big red book a time or two.
>>
>Do other netters concur that "the big red book" is required reading?
>Also, does anyone know where the Kelsey defense book (what is it
>called?) is sold?  I've never seen it.

I have not read Kantar's book, but I have read a number of Kelsey's, and
his original "Killing Defense at Bridge" is the bridge book on defense in
my view. It is not for the beginner, since it assumes a knowledge of
basic technique. It is also somewhat oriented to Acol - or at least
natural bidding. It is also oriented rather more to teams than pairs, since
the goal is usually to defeat the contract rather than avoid giving away
overtricks. 

The book heavilly emphasises counting.

Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: maugx@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr G A Jordan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Bidding Carve Up!
Date: 10 Jan 1993 23:14:17 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
NNTP-Posting-Host: tansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk

     This article is not from me - but a from a friend that can read the 
newsgroup, but doesn't seem to be able to post to it. 

     Anyhow, over to him.

This hand was played at rubber bridge, at stakes I could only afford to win at.
The agreed system was Acol, 15-17 NT, Stayman.  At game up I (South) dealt:-

               S AQJT
               H Qxxxx
               D Kx
               C Jx



               S xx
               H Kxx
               D Axx
               C AKQTx

 The opposition were silent throughout (probably a good job....things would 
have gone really wrong...:)  ) and the bidding went:-

     1NT(a)   -    2C 
     2D       -    3D(b) 
     4C(c)    -    4H(d) 
     5C(e)    -    6NT(f)

The auction was not convincing to say the least.

a) My 1NT was hardly perfect, but with a loony opposite....
b) Here is where the wheel comes off.  Without any mention of it partner 
   decides he is playing extended stayman (why not just bid 3H?).  I assume 5
   diamonds with a 4 card major, willing to pass 3NT if I'm suitable
c) I think I am as suitable as I could ever be....show my Ace/feature
d) He wants to play in 4H
e) His cue bid looks useful...:)
f) He doesnt want to play in clubs....!!!! At least I'm playing it.

Comments?

Not the best slam in the world.  All the x's are really small.  Plan your play
on the lead of the S2.  What do you rate your probablity as being once the SQ 
holds?

At the end of the hand (it made on my line) dummy (apt), who hadn't watched 
the play, said "It's a good job you made it, seeing as you bid it so badly"

I still have fantasies about pushing his malodourous cigar down his fat 
throat :)

The whole hand and winning line to follow.

   ~Mark Taylor
    email : mt3@st-andrews.ac.uk

 (Apologies if my original posting also gets displayed :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gavin Jordan                   email : maugx@csv.warwick.ac.uk
University of Warwick.
"I've got a bad feeling about this."
"Who's the more foolish:  the fool, or the fool that follows him?"
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: baseggio@deshaw.com (Franco Baseggio)
Subject: Another ethics question (Was: Re: Computer Bridge and the Law)
Organization: D. E. Shaw & Co.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:45:46 GMT

What about leading from the wrong hand?  Is it always unethical for
declarer to do this deliberately?  

Franco


Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: baseggio@deshaw.com (Franco Baseggio)
Subject: Re: What's your call?
Followup-To: myself
Summary: oops, wrong card.
Organization: D. E. Shaw & Co.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:44:41 GMT

In article <C0Cp8D.CnG@deshaw.com> I write:
>Flt B swiss, early round, white on white.  You, south, hold
>KT965
>AQ5
>A
>KT93
>
>South  North
>1S     1N
>2C     4S
>?
>
>1N was forcing, but limited to 12 HCP.  4S means that North was going
>to make a balanced 3 piece limit raise, but liked your 2C bid.
>
>What if you were in a long KO match?
>
>--Franco

Make that AT93 of clubs.  Sorry.

Franco
From: mbrgw@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk (R.G. Walters)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: Arggggh!
Date: 6 Jan 1993 18:42:24 -0000
Organization: Daresbury Lab., Warrington, U.K.
NNTP-Posting-Host: seqnet.dl.ac.uk
Keywords: true, ouch

In article <1993Jan6.143308.28695@linus.mitre.org> bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman) writes:
>In article <1ielb9INNq9c@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk> mbrgw@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk (R.G. Walters) writes:
>
>stuff deleted....

Yes, very relevant stuff.

>>S  -                    You open 1NT (20+, any shape), and LHO leaps in
>>H  K Q T                with 4S, passed round to you.
>>D  K Q J 9 8
>>C  A K Q 2              Pick a bid.
>>
>
>This hand only has 12 cards.

Sorry, slip of the finger - the "-" should be "9"

>Your asking what to bid is a ridiculous question. You have not told
>us what system you are playing, what your methods are, what options were
>available to partner over 4S, what partner's pass actually shows, or
>what your rebids show.  Under these circumstances your question is
>meaningless.

Read my posting again before contributing unnecessary flames. The whole point
was that this is the sort of hand you're going to have to cope with, whatever
the agreement. It was an attempt to start a discussion on the merits of
different approaches - for instance, I bid 4NT on the above hand, intending it
as unusual.  _If_ this is your agreement, then it works OK on this hand,
but might you not want 4N to be to play with (for instance)

S  K x
H  A x x               (13 cards, this time :-)
D  A
C  A K Q J x x x

which is not at all unlikely if you're opening with some sort of strong bid.
So can we start the discussion, instead of nonsensical flames.

>I wish people would stop posing these kinds of ridiculous problems
>that are HIGHLY system-dependent without also revealing their methods.
>Your post is a waste of the reader's time and of net bandwidth.

You're entitled to be irritated by the 12-card hand. Please don't transfer
that irritation where it isn't justified.

>--
>Bob Silverman

Robin Walters.

Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu (R. Bharat Rao)
Subject: Re: Bob S
Keywords: FAQ
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:21:30 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.155235.24897@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>, reha@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (reha.gur) writes:

|> And now some bridge....
|> playing 2/1 GF (no inverted minors, limit raises in minors,
|> invitational NT over minors (2N = 11-12, 3N = 13-15))
|> 
|> MATCHPOINTS, vul vs not vul.
|> partner opens 1d - pass to you:
|> 
|> your hand: A x x / A K / K J x x / x x x x
|> 
|> what is your bid? 

No bid, just a suggestion to fix a hole in your system...  I play
essentially what you do with one important addition -- we add
criss-cross (i.e., a jump raise in the other minor to show a forcing 
raise).  Playing 2/1 GF, 1D-3C is unnecessary as a strong jump shift, and 
you lose the 1C-2D SJS, but I think I have made that bid exactly once
in the last 7 years (playing SJS).

As to what to bid, I would make a forcing raise in diamonds (you didn;t 
mention how in your post) as this hand is too rich in controls
for me to commit to NT right off the bat.
 
|> reha gur

Of course if you play Weak Jump Shifts, then you are out of luck.

A note -- Perverted minors.. sorry inverted minors:-), have long been
something I disliked.  I have no objection to playing them when I am
white, but think that when red, you are sometimes end-played into
distorting your hand when you would like to make a simple raise,
but can;t risk venturing to the 3 level on what could be a 4-3 fit..
The 1m-P-2m bid can be an effective preempt and I hate to give it
up...  Since, I dislike playing overly complex stuff, and *KNOW* that
if I played inv-minors when white and off when red, the first time
it came up I would be sure to do the wrong thing... :-)

Bharat
-- 
R. Bharat Rao                         E-mail: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu
AI Group, Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
405 N. Mathews, Urbana, IL 61801   (217)-333-5978 (O), 337-6498(H)
Electrical & Computer Engineering, University of Illinois, Urbana
From: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu (R. Bharat Rao)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: FAQ (not)
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:59:11 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science

There is an FAQ -- kind of, I guess.  It is called the style guide!
It does answer the question about beginners bridge books!

It was posted about a week ago in rgb

bharat
 
-- 
R. Bharat Rao                         E-mail: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu
AI Group, Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
405 N. Mathews, Urbana, IL 61801   (217)-333-5978 (O), 337-6498(H)
Electrical & Computer Engineering, University of Illinois, Urbana
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: baseggio@deshaw.com (Franco Baseggio)
Subject: Re: Reading List?
Keywords: books
Organization: D. E. Shaw & Co.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 19:16:42 GMT

In article <1i87nnINNpv@im4u.cs.utexas.edu> varvel@cs.utexas.edu (Donald A. Varvel) writes:
>   b. It's hardly a beginner's text, but Kantar's Defensive Bridge Play
>      Complete, "the big red book," is required reading for intermediate
>      players.  There are books by Kantar and Kelsey on defense that are
>      good after you've gotten through the big red book a time or two.
>
Do other netters concur that "the big red book" is required reading?
Also, does anyone know where the Kelsey defense book (what is it
called?) is sold?  I've never seen it.

Thanks,
  Franco
From: doug@cm.deakin.OZ.AU (Douglas Newlands)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: FAQ (not)
Date: 5 Jan 1993 10:22:02 GMT
Organization: Deakin University, Geelong, Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: aragorn.cm.deakin.oz.au

In article <lkil3pINNl2d@latexo.cs.utexas.edu: varvel@cs.utexas.edu (Donald A. Varvel) writes:
:In article <1993Jan5.072108.25364@cs.wright.edu> bclaus@cs.wright.edu (Brian Clausing) writes:
:As far as I know, there is no FAQ for this group, and won't be until
:somebody creates one.
:
:-- Don Varvel (varvel@cs.utexas.edu)

I believe when I picked up okb-1.7Y that cleggy had an FAQ file for it. Maybe
he could be leaned on to hold the bridge FAQ in the same place tho he's
certainly already done more than enough for the rest of us with okbridge
itself (public thank you Matt!).

doug.
From: zilch@apples.Eng.Sun.COM (John Hoffman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: Preemptive jump shifts
Date: 11 Jan 1993 20:48:46 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: zilch@apples.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: apples

> A couple of posters lately have said they use 1D-2S as a forcing raise
> in diamonds, forgoing the preemptive jump shift in that case.  This
> raises a question that I'm really interested in hearing about.  Does
> the net think that preemptive jump shifts (with no interference) are
> useful?  Why or why not?

Not useful.  I have found them to be extremely rare, the gain is not clear
or great in most cases, and they are not necessary in describing the hand.
Assuming that "preemptive" refers to a hand that is too weak to respond
normally (or marginal at best), I can live with either of these:
1. pass followed by appropriate action (or lack of same) with a very poor count.
2. 1-level bid (or forcing 1NT over a major) followed by rebid of my 6-card suit
with a marginal count.

My favorite method is game-forcing jump shift (good 6+ card suit, about 12+ HCP)
in the majors over 1 of a minor openers.  2 over 1 game force takes care
of the other cases.  This bid is (of course)
alertable because the range is lower than a traditional strong jump shift.
These hands are moderately common, and the bid does provide real benefit in finding
the right strain and level without going through contortions with NMF or 4SF.

John
From: varvel@cs.utexas.edu (Donald A. Varvel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Inverted minors
Date: 8 Jan 1993 16:13:53 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: im4u.cs.utexas.edu
Keywords: FAQ

In article <C0JMrv.8u7@cs.uiuc.edu> bharat@cs.uiuc.edu (R. Bharat Rao) writes:

>A note -- Perverted minors.. sorry inverted minors:-), have long been
>something I disliked.  I have no objection to playing them when I am
>white, but think that when red, you are sometimes end-played into
>distorting your hand when you would like to make a simple raise,
>but can;t risk venturing to the 3 level on what could be a 4-3 fit..
>The 1m-P-2m bid can be an effective preempt and I hate to give it
>up...  Since, I dislike playing overly complex stuff, and *KNOW* that
>if I played inv-minors when white and off when red, the first time
>it came up I would be sure to do the wrong thing... :-)

I've used inverted minors for close to 30 years now and haven't
noticed a problem, but maybe I wasn't looking for one.

1D-1NT is much more preemptive than 1D-2D.  Where you lose out is 
when the opponents can compete with 2M.  After 1NT *you* have to 
decide whether to go to 3D, without any help from partner.  The
other side of the coin is that partner may be able to double more
easily after the 1NT call, especially with only 3 diamonds.  In
effect, that's where the preemption comes from.  It's much more 
dangerous for the opponents to enter the bidding.

The preemptive raise has gained more than it's lost over the years,
even when vulnerable.  1D-2D positively *begs* the opponents to bid.
Both opponents can bid as if balancing, freely bidding 4-card suits
or doubling light.  1D-3D makes things quite a lot more difficult.

Criss-cross, mentioned in the material I deleted, is nice, but you
don't just give up either strong or weak jump-shift.  1D-3C can be
used to add definition to 1D-2C, as discussed a month or two ago.
That is, if you play 1D-3C to show around 10 HCP and a 6-card club
suit, and 1D-2NT for all 11-12 HCP balanced hands without a 4-card
major, then 1D-2C can be a game force.  (With one partner I use
1D-2S as the game-forcing diamond raise.)

-- Don Varvel (varvel@cs.utexas.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: jch@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (jeffrey.c.halle)
Subject: Re: How many ways?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:12:23 GMT

From article <1iufgjINNo1m@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk>, by mbrgw@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk (R.G. Walters):
> At adverse vulnerability, you hear LHO open 1 spade, and quickly find yourself
> bounced into this seven club contract:
> 
> S  Q 7 6                    (Well, not quite - they chickened out of the
> H  K 9 8                     sacrifice and let us play in 6C)
> D  A Q 7 5 3
> C  K 8                       How do you play on a small diamond lead?
> 
> S  -                         What about a low heart lead?
> H  A 7 6 5 4                 
> D  2                         Is there more than one way to play the hand?
> C  A Q J 10 4 3 2

First assume that LHO has S AK but didn't lead it for some reason.  (You
can't make the hand otherwise.)  LHO also has three hearts.  You are not
sure who has the D K.

LHO needs the club 9 for you to make it.  On either lead, the general plan
is to ruff out the diamond K and get two pitches.  The best way is probably
to play LHO for Kxx and hook then ruff twice.  This requires three entries to
dummy beyond the diamond.  So you need the club hook.  Make sure you ruff
high at least once or LHO can deny you an entry.  The end is a major suit
squeeze against LHO.
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: courtel@cenatls.cena.dgac.fr (Nicolas Courtel)
Subject: Re: Arggggh!
Organization: Centre d'Etudes de la Navigation Aerienne, Toulouse, France
	<1ihcj4INN554@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:19:25 GMT

>>>>> On 7 Jan 1993 13:52:36 -0000, mbrgw@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk (R.G. Walters) said:


RW> In case we've forgotten where the flames came from, here's the "offending"
RW> posting with some explanatory comments.

[Posting and explanations deleted]

RW> Now then. Somewhere in amongst Bob Silverman's postings, there was some 
RW> worthwhile contribution.  Now where was it....? :-)

RW> Robin.

I found some:

>>>>> On 7 Jan 93 00:09:06 GMT, bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman) said:

BS> In article <1ifn8mINNc5t@transfer.stratus.com> tnh@sw.stratus.com (Tim Hill)
writes:

TH> :     Playing your favorite methods with your favorite partner, if you open
TH> :2C in third seat (Chicago, they're vulnerable with 60 on) and LHO overcalls 4S,
TH> :what are your partner's options?  In particular, what would pass, double, and
TH> : 4NT show?
  
BS> (1) Pass is forcing. It shows a good hand.
BS> (2) Double is penalty. It shows either a bad balanced weak hand or one
BS> that is not suited for offense in a suit other than spades.
BS> It is the most discouraging bid you can make.
BS> (3) 4NT is takeout and promises some values with reasonable support for
BS> at least 2 suits other than spades. It shows somewhere around 4-7 HCP.
BS> A typical hand will be balanced with at least 3 card support for all suits
BS> or at least 4-4 in two suits other than spades.
BS> (4) 5 of new suit shows a decent 6-bagger. It shows a minimal HCP, but
BS> decent suit equivalent of a weak 2-bid.

Looks like a good system to me (well, it's about standard, but I believe most
players wouldn't know what to do in this situation).

--
Nicolas Courtel - courtel@dgac.fr

>>>    Any system which depends on human reliability is unreliable    <<<
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: lsimonse@lesti.hut.fi (Kenneth Simonsen)
Subject: Re: Bidding Carve Up!
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 12 Jan 93 13:58:17 GMT

In <1iqak9INNasr@tansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk> maugx@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr G A Jordan) writes:

>     This article is not from me - but a from a friend that can read the 
>newsgroup, but doesn't seem to be able to post to it. 

>     Anyhow, over to him.

>This hand was played at rubber bridge, at stakes I could only afford to win at.
>The agreed system was Acol, 15-17 NT, Stayman.  At game up I (South) dealt:-

>               S AQJT
>               H Qxxxx
>               D Kx
>               C Jx



>               S xx
>               H Kxx
>               D Axx
>               C AKQTx

> The opposition were silent throughout (probably a good job....things would 
>have gone really wrong...:)  ) and the bidding went:-

>     1NT(a)   -    2C 
>     2D       -    3D(b) 
>     4C(c)    -    4H(d) 
>     5C(e)    -    6NT(f)

>The auction was not convincing to say the least.

>a) My 1NT was hardly perfect, but with a loony opposite....

I  think that 1NT is much better than any other bid.

>b) Here is where the wheel comes off.  Without any mention of it partner 
>   decides he is playing extended stayman (why not just bid 3H?).  I assume 5
>   diamonds with a 4 card major, willing to pass 3NT if I'm suitable

Perhaps I don't understand but passing 3NT after 4C seems to be fatal. If
one chooses a bid on random it is quite possible to find 3D...

>c) I think I am as suitable as I could ever be....show my Ace/feature
>d) He wants to play in 4H

After 3D? Hm...

>e) His cue bid looks useful...:)
>f) He doesnt want to play in clubs....!!!! At least I'm playing it.

>Comments?

>Not the best slam in the world.  All the x's are really small.  Plan your play
>on the lead of the S2.  What do you rate your probablity as being once the SQ 
>holds?

If queen of spades does hold its not such an impossible contract. Play east
for three hearts, the clab at least 4-2 and you'll have it.

After SQ Cx to CT. Then Hx to HQ. If east takes the ace it's cool otherwise
you play Hx to HK, which according to the plans west takes with his ace.

Next you get in on the hand with CJ to CQ and play two more rounds of clubs.
 The situation is now:
            AJT
            x
            x
            -
Kxx                 x
-                   J           (about; the spotcards doesn't matter)
xx                  xxx
-                   -
           x
           x
           Ax
           x

On the last club west is squeezed. His only montal defece is to give up the 
diamond, north discarding a spade. Spade to the jack and the ace of spades
will now squeeze east into parts. 
          A 
          x
          x
          -
Kx              -
-               J
x               xx
-               -
          -
          x
          Ax
          -

Just if east holds three (or more) hearts.


Sinbad Sj|fararen