HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thb@tacos.caltech.edu (Thomas Buettgenbach)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: recommendations for round trip 4 day sierra hike
Date: 2 Oct 1992 08:08 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: tacos.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.40    

Any good ideas for a 4 day backpacking hiking trip in the sierras at
this time of year. Is it still neccessary to make advance reservations
for back country permits for a trip in the middle of the week?
Please E-mail to me directly rather than post to save bandwidth.

			thanks,
					thomas.
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Backcountry safety & sexism
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:44:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <BvIq8J.862.1@cs.cmu.edu> jsp+@cs.cmu.edu (John Pieper) writes:
>
>
>It boils down to this: nobody is safe in the backcountry alone, regardless
>of sex. After you break a leg or an arm, or sprain an ankle, by yourself,
>more than four hours from help, you will realize this. It doesn't matter
>whether women are safer alone than men or not; nobody is safe alone.

True.  But one could use this same logic to argue that nobody is safe
in the backcountry in groups:  If you fall off a cliff or get attacked by
a bear, all your friends can do is carry your body out.  It's a question
of degree.  It's a personal risk/reward tradeoff.

>Groups of women are just as safe as groups of men; humans preying on humans
>invariably hit weak targets. If you travel in a group, somebody is bound
>to be weaker than you, because there are always loonies around out there by
>themselves.

Yes, a common strategy among predators is to seperate an animal from the herd.
Leaving the herd is synonymous with death.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,news.answers
From: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock)
Subject: Re: An Insight
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:53:53 GMT

trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:

>The planet is a lot like your body.  Cut or bruise it a little and it will
>heal.  (This process never ceases to amaze me.)  Beat it up a little worse,
>and scar tissue will form.  Push it too far, and it will die.

Are you sure about that?  Perhaps it is the "offending" species that is
ultimately threatened with extinction rather than the earth.

Mark Sandrock
-- 
UIUC School of Chemical Sciences   "The leading rule for a man of every calling
155 Noyes Lab/505 S. Mathews Ave.   is diligence; never put off until tomorrow
Urbana, IL 61801 USA		    what you can do today." --A. Lincoln
Net: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu
From: be829@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jon Lyksett)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Southern Utah: Where to Go?
Date: 2 Oct 92 17:09:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1ahvorINNchu
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Try Kolob Canyon area of Zion.  Pick up interpretive sheets @ the
visitors center off I-15 1/2 way between St. George and Cedar Cty
(they give ifo on trails, geology, wildlife, plants, etc.). Also the
the Walter's Wiggles trail in Zion is a memorable one.

Jon Lyksett
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: hawley-matthew@CS.YALE.EDU (Matthew Hawley)
Subject: Re: Sleeping bag advice/recommendation: LL Bean??
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: usa 
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:25:45 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.133844.15101@scott.skidmore.edu> pvonk@scott.skidmore.edu (Pierre VonKaenel) writes:
>Speaking of bags - what are people's opinions of L L Bean down bags
>(20 rated or 0 rated)?
>-- 
>Pierre von Kaenel	| Skidmore College	     | pvonk@skidmore.edu
>Math & CS Dept.		| Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 | (518)584-5000 Ext 2391

  I have heard that the 20 degree is in fact the North Face Blue Kazoo with an LL Bean
 tag on it. Haven't seen the two side-by-side, but they look very similar! (Dimensions
 are the same, too).
                                                                  Matt B^)

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sawicki@src.dec.com (Filip Sawicki)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: "Points": the good way ... (author's update)
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:22:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: src.1992Oct5.222216.28460
Organization: DEC Systems Research Center

In article <11008@sun13.scri.fsu.edu>, jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) writes:
|> In article <15826@umd5.umd.edu> jjk@astro.umd.edu (Jim Klavetter) writes:
|> >
|> >Obviously. the "points" system (based on time) is a one-to-one function
|> >of the distance system, so, in a sense, they are equivalent.  The
|> 
|> Not true.  The "points" system is a two-to-one map.  If converts 
|> distance *and* the slope of the trail into a single number. 
|> 

   Exactly: this is the _very_ idea of points. Having just ONE constant number
(or two, for the way there and back), you can very easily convert it into time. 
Assuming 2pph or so for snowy winter (and instantly getting time) is easier than
scaling down the rule "2 mph + 1000 ft/h".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Some people asked about origin and the "GOTs" name of poins. Well, this is
simply an acronym of 8-level mountaineering/backpaking ... pin? medal? award?. 
Anyway, apart from satisfaction, to become a state-certified mountain guide you
have to not only complete the course, pass one practical and two theoretical
exams, but also have cartain experience measured in points. Going on trail you
note your path, get confirmations from villages (if any) you passed or other
certified guides you met, etc. After the season you "register" your points at the
central office (and subsequently get pins etc.). What you finally need is the 5th
level or 120 + 180 (1 + 1 season) + 360 + 720 (2 + 2 seasons in 2 different
regions) + 1200 (3 seasons in 2 different regions) points. For that to complete,
you need at least 4 (usually 5-7) years; this guarantees that your knowledge,
skills and endurance were well tested in practice.

   For practical purposes, an official booklet lists points span of all trails.
Guide books, if not based on author's timing, use it as a reference.

fi.

(Drogi kolego, jezeli to przeczytales i sie nie zgadzasz z przyrownaniem
przodownika do przewodnika, to nie wysylaj sprostowania w siec. Po co macic
ludziom w glowach? Lepiej napisz do mnie bezposrednio.)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ST402676@brownvm.brown.edu
Subject: Re: HELP: plastic mountaineering boots
Organization: Brown University
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 15:13:22 GMT

>Please help me make my decision on what plastic boots I should get.
>
>I've heard that the Lowa Denali's liner takes years to dry out.
>I've heard that Asolo's leak water.
>I've heard that Scarpas are not great.
>I can get Koflachs at wholesale, but they dont really grab me.

I have Asolo AFS101's and like them. I have not had a problem with water
leaking in, and they are plenty warm and comfortable. The only other boots I
have experience with are  Kastingers, which gave me the most incredible
bruises, so I personally would stay away from them.
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:7780 rec.climbing:3663
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
Subject: Re: United Way and SAR
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:10:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <kllKr*Pi0@stile.stonemarche.org> me@stile.stonemarche.org (Mark Eklof) writes:

>	Okay, I'm confused.  Why not just contribute to the groups you
>want to contribute to directly?  That way, you know where the money's
>going, and there's no cut to the middleman.

Good question.  There are a couple of reasons.  First convenience -
UW contributions can be deducted directly from your paycheck at many
companies.  Second, some companies put a great deal of pressure on
employees to contribute to UW.  Specified contribution allows
employees who disagree with some UW agencies to satisfy the boss.
(Yes, I know UW discourages employers from doing this but it still
happens.)

>	Targeting particular organisations this way always struck me
>as somewhat ineffective.  The middleman will decide how much to give
>each organisation, and include 'your' targeted donation in that
>amount.  It sounds in this case like these groups wouldn't normally
>get anything, so I'm surprised that UW will do this.

At least here in the Portland, Or. area that has changed.  Specified
contributions are not counted against the money UW has decided the
target agency should get.  This was changed after a lot of
complaints and withheld contributions.  Of course that doesn't
affect SAR since, at least as far as I know, no SAR agency is
included in UW.  UW will pass the contributions on to tax exempt
organizations, however (at least here).
From: edb@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Ed Beshore)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Breaking in Boots
Date: 25 Sep 92 05:07:09 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO

I am breaking in a new pair of boots.  Rather stiff
ones at that.  One of my friends asked if I had heard
of the technique of getting them thoroughly soaked and
then walking them dry.

Sounds fishy.  And I certainly don't want to ruin
a new pair of boots....  Nevertheless, anyone
have any experiences, thoughts or IMHO's about this?

Ed Beshore
edb@hpgrla.gr.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: An Insight
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:03:25 GMT

In article <Sep28.174436.58657@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
>Lying staring at the stars last weekend I had an insight.
>It was one of those clear, moonless, wilderness nights and the
>stars were uncountably many.  From square in the center of my
>vacant unfocussed attention, a realization took shape:
>There's still a LOT of wilderness out there!  What's more,
>its inaccessible remoteness seems inviolable.  Everything
>is not going to hell, only our planet.  Provincial hopelessnes
>was overwhelmed by comforting insignificance.


One of the reasons why I don't carry a tent when I hike.  Almost every
hike holds that for me.  One thing you'll find, Wayne, is than from
now on you'll be comforted by stars, and that no matter how bleak your
personal situation, they'll be there to give you comfort.  

Peace.
-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Mayor of Dogspit, IN  #My Opinions! NotIU's! #Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Located somewhere in  # Legalize Explosives! #nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # the Outback of the    #I've got my own fusion#family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over#plant. Just ask me.   #Space For Rent
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: National parks to be opened to strip mining
Date: 30 Sep 92 00:06:23 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <MATT.92Sep29151905@physics.berkeley.edu> matt@physics.berkeley.edu writes:
>
>Indeed.  The Bush administation is being very disingenious when it
>says that all it's trying to do is to be fair to the owners of the
>mineral rights.

Indeed.  Are they allocating money up front to buy up all the rights?
Get real.  They are opening a can of worms.  Where the worms will crawl
is a scary mystery at best, a devious scheme at worst.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: An Insight
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 07:13:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.161916.11372@lsil.com> gascan@dcst16.dc writes:
>If you think about it, space enthusiasts and evironmentalists should
>be natural allies.  After all, isn't the ultimate goal of the space program to
>zone this entire planet residential/park by moving all the nasty polluting 
>activities off planet?

Er? Sez who?

Several camps exist, and no they are not allies.  I observed this when
I was "officially" reading sci.space.

You have the more environmentally inclined: this tends to include the
Astronaut Corps, Carl Sagan, and a fair number of astronomers, scientists, etc.
They take the Island Earth perspective.

Then come those space colonists who want to leave because they have written
the Earth off.  Tend to be sci-fi readers of Niven, Pournelle (whom I met
at the Hackers Conference), maybe the Hans Moreavecs of the world.
Some can be quite anti-environmental (you might find a few at airports
carrying placards).

In the middle are those who want to move as you note above.

Ultimate goal is who to you talk to (I'm one of those who sees a lack of
science in manned space and think a SETI contact is the greatest thing
mankind can achieve).

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
From: cvm@nauvax.ucc.nau.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: RE: more bad reports on MSR filter
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:19:05 GMT
Organization: Northern Arizona University

In a previous article, tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) wrote:

>A friend just got back from a self-supported kayak trip on the
>Rogue river in SW Oregon.  They took an MSR filter plus iodine
>tablets for backup.  Despite filtering water from side-streams
>only, the filter clogged up on the second day, and they had to
>dismantle, clean, and dry the unit (while resorting to iodine).
>When he got back, he went to REI and bought a Pur filter.  One
>objection to the MSR is that it cannot be operated left-handed
>when your right wrist is sore from paddling.
> 
>Last June some acquantainces went canoeing on the San Juan river
>in SE Utah, perhaps the most silted river in the USA.  Instead
>of carrying water, they took two filters: an MSR and a Katadyn.
>The MSR clogged up the very first day, and they were unable to
>clean it enough to make it usable.  Either the carbon and paper
>elements were clogged.  For the rest of that trip, the Katadyn
>was their only filter-- and it is sloooooooooooow.

I run several trips a year on the San Juan and use my PUR Explorer with no
problems.  I bring several gallon size Ziploc bags and a clothes pin.  I dig a
hole in the sand where I set a bag full of water to settle out the sediment. 
It is best to let the water sit over night but a couple of hours will do.  I
use the clothes pin to hold the intake hose and filter off of the bottom of the
bag.  Just stop filtering before you are sucking in sediment and backflush
after every use. 

I have used this method successfully on every river I have run in Arizona except
the Little Colorado.  It is so dirty that one year I was throwing my boat on
top of my car and a couple of drops of river water got splashed on my car.  The
water permanently discolored the paint.  It makes me wonder what a swim or a
roll does to a person's skin :-).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Michels -- Systems Programmer             cvm@nauvax.ucc.nau.edu
Northern Arizona University -- Flagstaff, AZ    cvm@nauvax.bitnet
Phone: (602) 523-6495                           N7YIU
From: dickman@ecst.csuchico.edu (Bob Dickman)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Waterproof fabrics (Ventana, Ultrex, Gore-Tex)
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:45:06 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

There has been a recent series of threads discussing the merits of the
various waterproof outerwears available.  I am interested in a summary if 
anyone collected one.  Of particular interest is Ventana by REI.  Could
someone please send me any info?  Thanks.

-- 
Bob Dickman                 --------- __o       __o       __o       __o
dickman@ecst.csuchico.edu   ------- _`\<,_    _`\<,_    _`\<,_    _`\<,_
California State University ------ (*)/ (*)  (*)/ (*)  (*)/ (*)  (*)/ (*)
Chico, CA                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco)
Subject: Re: Ultrex Waterproof/Breathable Fabric
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 16:15:32 GMT

Jackie Sieppert <AGJDS@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:

>I know that Goretex is unquestionably the best
>waterproof/breathable around, but I've recently come across gear that
>uses a fiber called "Ultrex".  It promises much the same thing as
>Goretex.  Anybody heard of this stuff?

Gore-Tex has its limits too (as people returning from a wet Alaskan
trip can attest). In some environments cheap coated nylon fabric is
far better than Gore-Tex. But if you can afford it there are are some
excellent Gore-Tex shells out there: Marmot or Moonstone being two of
the best (and two of the most expensive!). I prefer vented armpit
pull-overs with minimal seams.

Ultrex has a polyurethane coating in the inside and a silicone based
water repellent treatment on the outside. The problem with a silicone
laminate is that it tends wear off quickly, which in turn retains
moisture in worn areas. I tested a pair of silicone laminated pants
this summer and I'm afraid I have to give them the big thumb down.
The only "Ultrex" products I know of are the parkas manufactured by
Wilderness Experience (I still have one of their 60/40 parkas).

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis)
Subject: Re: Animals (summary)
Organization: University of Virginia Health Sciences Center
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 19:02:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.182000.12203@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov 
(Eugene N. Miya) writes:

}Hum, what can one say at this point?

That bats, and therefore by association, cavers are better than climbers....

--
       hang gliding mailing list: hang-gliding-request@virginia.edu 
     Galen Hekhuis  UVa Health Sci Ctr (804)982-1646 gjh@virginia.edu
               A man's screech should exceed his gasp...
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:7742 rec.climbing:3650
From: me@stile.stonemarche.org (Mark Eklof)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
Subject: Re: United Way and SAR
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 11:00:36 -0400
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00 alpha rel3

In article <10418@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, Hal F Lillywhite writes:
> Well folks, it's that time again.  At least here in Oregon, United
> Way campaigns are starting.  Some of us outdoor types may want to
> consider having all or part of any donations we make go to a local
> search and rescue group.  These groups are not normally part of UW
> but if you use the designated recipient option you can still
> contribute to them (at least here, I'm not absolutely certain that
> policy is nationwide but I think it is).

	Okay, I'm confused.  Why not just contribute to the groups you
want to contribute to directly?  That way, you know where the money's
going, and there's no cut to the middleman.

	Targeting particular organisations this way always struck me
as somewhat ineffective.  The middleman will decide how much to give
each organisation, and include 'your' targeted donation in that
amount.  It sounds in this case like these groups wouldn't normally
get anything, so I'm surprised that UW will do this.

Mark
-- 
Mark D. Eklof
Madarch Grange
Brookline, New Hampshire, USA

me@stile.stonemarche.org

I remember when all this will be again.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: privette@samwise.colorado.edu (Jeff Privette)
Subject: Re: 9/28 Kauai Update
Organization: Colorado Center for Astrodynamics Research
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 22:26:25 GMT


In article <137483@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV>, roberts@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov (Don Roberts) writes:
|> privette@pippin.colorado.edu (Jeff Privette) writes:
|> 
|> >No doubt.  I think I would prefer Bill The Cat to Marilyn Quayle.
|> >I seriously doubt Marilyn has *ever* been without electricity, a phone,
|> >and an American Express card, let alone food and shelter.
|> 
|> And I seriously doubt *you* have ever been without electricity, phone,
|> food, and shelter, either. (I make no assumption about whether American
|> Express would consider you a good risk). And on the odd chance I'm wrong,

you are indeed wrong, Dr. Don.  (and not knowing anything about me, why
is that such an odd chance?)  I will not bore you with the whens, wheres,
and whys of my particular experience, as I seriously doubt that is why you
replied.  

...And, of course, I am not living in a ridiculously wealthy setting 
and then going into destroyed areas acting like I have compassion for the 
have nots of the world.  Are you forgetting Marilyn's positive, unifying,
all-inclusive speech during the Rep. convention?  (Makes me worried that
any unwed mothers, atheistic, unemployed or on welfare, gay, and pro-choice 
people from Kauai might not have been received by the Second Lady).  I've heard
Bill the Cat doesn't righteously comdemn others, but that is only hearsay.

|> then keep in mind that so, too, might you be...

That is why I said "seriously doubt" instead of something more definitive.
And frankly, Don, I still do seriously doubt it.  Don't you?  Bet you 
and every other reader of the this group do!  So what is your point?

|>  Dr. Donald W. Roberts
|>    University of California                               Physicist, Diver
|>    Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory         Recreational Bodybuilder
|>    dwr@llnl.gov                                           Renaissance Dude

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: zulauf@csn.org (Mike Zulauf)
Subject: Re: has anyone climbed Mt Elbert in Colorado
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:50:39 GMT

In article <1992Sep24.142401.447@ico.isc.com> carnes@ico.isc.com (Steve Carnes) writes:
>
>Forecasters are advising there might be snow tonight above the 11,000
>foot level.  Could turn this walkup into an epic.
>-- 
>Steve Carnes       carnes@ico.isc.com        uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!carnes
>   "Rock gives reality to the otherwise abstract notion of transhuman
>    time." - Edward Abbey

     I just climbed Mt. Massive Saturday, 9/28.  Massive is about 2 miles north
and 12 feet lower than Elbert.  There was indeed new snow up there, about 2
inches, and melting fast.  The snow created absolutely no problems, and the
weather Saturday was just about perfect.  This is my favorite time of year to
hike in Colorado.  The weather is pretty stable, the crowds nonexistant, and the
scenery at its best.

Mike Zulauf
zulauf@orbit.colorado.edu
From: mhart@blackjack.dt.navy.mil (Michael Hart)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Sharpening knives
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:17:29 GMT
Distribution: na


Hi!  I just started perusing this group, so pardon if this is a
frequently covered subject.

I'm trying to locate information on sharpening knives.  I'm basically
more interested in the home/kitchen variety, but I suppose
most information is more or less applicable to those and the
more outdoorsy-type most rec.backcountry readers would be 
interested in.

I'd like to get info on techniques for sharpening, materials 
required, tips, hints, gotchas, whatever.

Thanx in advance......


--
|   Michael G. Hart                   mhart@blackjack.dt.navy.mil    |
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|     You think _I_ speak for the government or the navy?  HAH!      |
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