From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Subject: Re: True Reason
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:22:06 GMT

swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>>	You are correct to some degree: someone devoted to 'Reason' should 
>>logically conclude from watching a magician that dualism is not a correct 
>>worldview. However, like the mage's belief in vis and correspondances, and 
>>the Christian's belief in God, the Faith in Law is not a logical conclusion 
>>from viewing the world around, but rather a conclusion from an inner 
>>conviction.
...
>>	Modern science is *not* simply founded on the idea of following 
>>logical reasoning. There are many underlying assumptions and beliefs which 
>>cannot be proven, only accepted. Among these is the belief that the 
>>experimenters beliefs and attitudes do not affect the outcome of the 
>>experiment, for example. 
>
>  But does it deny the existance or _reproducable_ tests, like TReason
>does?

	If dualism is not true, then the mental state of the experimenter 
can influence the nature of the results which he finds. If this is so, then 
science as we know it is impossible. This is why psychology is such nebulous 
field, made scientific mainly by pharmacology and neurology. 

	Science regularly does ignore all sorts of data from ESP researchers 
and so forth. There are loads of data on ESP, much of which is positive and 
which has not been disproven. However, no one will take it seriously. (For 
a good reason, mind you, because trying to disprove all of the crackpot 
claims out there would take an enormous amount of work). 

	At any rate, from the 'subjective nature of reality' theory, all 
of the realms represent close-minded points of views which are trying 
to establish their world-view as the objective reality. The magi have a 
set of convictions or ideas about how reality is. The more they investigate 
it, the more they will find of 'magical reality'. 
	In contrast, in a time when believers in natural law dominate, they 
will deny magical tests, and lo-and-behold, magic proves unreproducable. 
They then search and test reality, and the more they look, the more they 
find a mechanistic, 'scientific' world. 
	At its starting stages (which should *not* occur in the time frame 
of Ars Magica, IMO), a belief in Natural Law will simply have no contact 
with magic, which has been driven to the corners of the Earth by the over-
whelming Dominion aura. The new natural philosophers are not interested 
in searching the globe for freaks and sideshows any more than mages are 
interested in displaying their powers in public display. 
	By the time a real 'scientific' view begins to take hold, it should 
be very difficult to reliably prove to a scientist that his view is wrong. 
Note that a mage would be equally unconvinced that Air-Earth-Fire-Water are 
not the four basic elements by anything a scientist could show him, for 
example. 

	If the nature of reality is subjective, then any 'scientific' 
endeavors is foolish, because what you find will be colored by what you 
want or expect to find, and by what others believe. And anyone else who 
investigates the same thing may get different results. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "You're on the cutting room floor, Chaplin.
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | Not a good place to be."
Columbia University         |                  (from the movie 'Chaplin')