From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Well, well... (last)
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:39:41 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1993Jan8.121745.7150@sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
>>08-Jan-93 schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)	Re: Well, well, well...
>>> This one just whooshed by me...what are we talking about?
>
>My comment here was that Christianity (the west) has no analogous activity to
>eastern meditation to derive meaning.  It is an essential distinction.  It
>could not possibly "sound familiar" that people might spend hours meditating
>on a single Bible phrase for example, because it doesn't happen at all in the
>same way.  There is no analogous activity.

I think you are mistaken. See, for example, the "Jesus Prayer" in
the RC Church. The practice is essentially identical to mantra
practice. There are pretty strong analogies between Christian
practices and Bhakti Yoga. It happens that mainstream Christianity
at present is strongly influenced by the Reformation, which
took a 'demystifying' approach to religion, but there are lots
of practice-oriented traditions in the history of Christianity and
other Western religions. In point of fact, Campbell and some other
mythographers classify Christianity as an oriental religion,
contrasting it with, for example, the religious thought of the
Hellenic Greeks, which had a different character (and which 
nevertheless influenced the development of Christianity).

>>Nope. I'll cite a whole bunch of "Masters" if you wish.
>
>By all means, cite a bunch of eastern masters who advocate book learning as
>being essential to enlightment.  Further, document that this is the real
>character of eastern thinking on the subject of enlightenment.  I believe that
>you will find that most eastern religions find that book knowledge is an
>option for dialectical scholars of religion--quite a separate concern from
>true enlightenment.

Again, I think you are mistaken. Gongfuzi (K'ung fu tze, or Confucius)
held that the enlightened man is a scholarly man. The whole edifice
of jnana yoga rests upon that proposition that scholarship and
logic is a valid path to enlightenment. Theravada and Vajrayana
Buddhism take  positive attitude toward scholarship; a common
Vajrayana analogy is that dharma is like a journey: meditation
practice is the territory, the sutras are the map. It is possible
to find one's way without a map, but why bother when a map is
available? (Of course, Krishnamurti held that it is impossible
to map that particular territory, in which opinion he was
joined by many Zen and Taoist patriarchs.I ten to agree.)

>>The west has all kinds of relaxation and exercise programs too. How is
>>this this relevant?
>
>First off, if you're talking about any program post the 1960's, they are
>virtually *all* derived from eastern practices.  If you are talking about the
>hypnosis thread derived from Freudian or Jungian folks, okay, but these are
>not really intended for enlightenment or increase in knowledge.  

You could start with the Sufi (Islamic) tradition, and the Trappist and
Franciscan (Christian) traditions. Look into Meister Eckhardt and
take a swing through Spinoza. Don't forget to read the archaeological
and anthropological literature on pre-Christian European healing
traditions as well.