HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf


A few hints and points of clarification :

Assume that the puddle is smaller than the bunker.  (This is not a trick
question, honest !).

There's nothing unusual about the situation -- no animals, manufactured ice,
balls unfit for play, other players' balls or anything like that involved.
Again, it's not a trick question.  Just assume this is the most normal
situation of a puddle in a bunker that you are going to find.

Rather than dive for the rule book, try putting yourself in the situation and
think what you are allowed to do, not just what you are likely to choose to do.
Then respond.

If you must check the rule book, you needn't retype rules in the response.
This is a poser, a riddle, a quiz, for fun -- not a request for an
authoratative ruling.  (Remember that we were in the pub when it arose !)  In a
few days, I'll post the answer, and I'll cite the relevant rules then.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ian Watson, HP Pinewood Information Systems Division, England.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: ilh@lcs.mit.edu (Lee Hetherington)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Rules poser
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:41:36 GMT
Reply-To: ilh@lcs.mit.edu
Organization: MIT/LCS Spoken Language Systems

According to Rule 25-1b regarding taking relief from casual water...

(ii) In a Hazard [not water hazard]: If the ball lies in or touches a
     hazard, the player shall lift and drop the ball either:

  (a) without penalty, in the hazard, as near as possible to the spot
      where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on ground which
      affords maximum available relief from the condition; or
  (b) under penalty of one stroke, outside the hazard, keeping the
      point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot
      on which the ball is dropped.

So, take relief in the bunker with no penalty, or drop outside
(behind) it with a one stroke penalty.

--

                                Lee Hetherington
                                ilh@lcs.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: prangba@polari.online.com
Subject: Re: Rule that I'd like to see changed
Organization: Seattle Online Public Access Unix.  (206) 328-4944 (all lines telebit-equipped)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:22:46 GMT

lekberg@screwdriver.Prime.COM (Paul Lekberg) writes:
>behind the ball, the ball drops.   The rule states
>you must declare a one shot penalty.   I think in
>the example just mentioned,  you have already

I think the rules also state that you should put your ball back 
to its original position. I don't have a book in front of me so 
I could be wrong.

bp
From: ilh@lcs.mit.edu (Lee Hetherington)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Is golf that much different of a sport?
Date: 15 Sep 92 22:06:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: winnie-t.ILH.92Sep15170637
	<10614@wrgate.wr.tek.com> <1992Sep15.175751.6837@colorado.edu>
Reply-To: ilh@lcs.mit.edu
Organization: MIT/LCS Spoken Language Systems

In article <1992Sep15.175751.6837@colorado.edu>
cdash@moet.cs.colorado.edu (Charles Shub) writes:
   Once again i'm faced with the "gee i wish i saved that posting"
   feeling.  Over a year ago, there was some debate here about rules and
   friendly games and so on, and there was an outstanding post by
   somebody using a sailing analogy about how the rules DEFINE the
   competition.  That post is probably somewhat applicable.

I've done a lot of competitive sailing and can second the statement
that the rules define the sport.  Boats are always maneuvering to gain
maximum advantage of the rules regarding right-of-way.  You often
strive to get into position to `push' your opponents into unfavorable
positions.  You even `push' your opponents to the point that they
foul you.  It is generally a very agressive sport.  Without that,
sailing would just be a drag race with the fastest boat winning.  At
times, it's much more like a chess match than a drag race.

Golf seems to be fundamentally different.  It is more like the rules
define how the players play against the COURSE, not eachother.  Then,
competition between players is settled after the fact by comparing
scores against the course.  The rules of golf are generally written as
to what a particular player's options are in isolation.  They aren't
written to say things like, ``If you're able to hit your opponent's
ball with yours, you can send him back to the tee.''
--

                                Lee Hetherington
                                ilh@lcs.mit.edu
From: wayne@sw.stratus.com (Wayne Newberry)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: compensating for elevation differences - tee to green
Keywords: golf distance
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:29:07 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <ron.715637253@nixtor>, ron@sni.ca (Ron Jeffrey) writes:
> I heard Ben Crenshaw comment during a tournament on a par 3 
> that the drop from tee to green was 1 club in magnitude.  The net
> result was that instead of hitting 5 they were hitting 6 irons.
> 
> Does anyone know of a sound (rational) rule of thumb for compensating
> for elevation changes to the target (+/-) that would help in club
> selection?
> 
> Something like for every x ft of drop/increase % of club should be added
> or subtracted?
> 
> -- 
> Ron Jeffrey 			Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems Ltd.
> ron@snitor.uucp 		2235 Sheppard Ave. E., Willowdale, Ontario
> uunet!snitor!ron        	Canada M2J 5B5       (416-496-8510)

It seems to me that if such a rule of thumb were available, it would be
difficult to use.  I've never seen a course where that kind of information 
was available.  Also, while we have all grown somewhat able to guesstimate
horizontal distances, I'd doubt that many people could come close to 
guessing vertical drops/rises.

Wayne
From: fragante@unixg.ubc.ca (Gv Fragante)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Wide-body drivers
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:32:46 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada

In <1992Sep14.081134.27900@lth.se> d90gl@efd.lth.se (Gustaf Loefberg) writes:

>This summer I bought a Spalding Tour Edition Persimmon driver
>mainly because it's so beautiful. The great thing about it is
>that I find it as forgiving as my metal driver. Don't you think
>that this thing with larger and larger sweetspots are overrated.
>I played tennis before and this reminds me of when Prince released
>their oversized tennisracket. It was popular for a while but then
>everybody went to the midsize version instead.

I also used to play competitive tennis and I agree that the oversized Prince
rackets where not any better than midsized rackets, except for the pschycologi-
cal benefits. Only very few tennis pros still use the oversized rackets - only
because they grew up playing with them and are hesitant to change.

I think the reason tennis pros do not like oversized rackets is that it's
so big and not as maneouverable (sic?) as a mid-size. In the same way, golf
pros like smaller and compact heads that allow them to maneouver their swing
and shape their shots better.

I do like persimmon drivers, in fact, have a Titleist mid-sized persimmon. The
problem is that an occasional mis-hit leaves ugly marks (or even tiny chips)
on the clubface.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: ear@sei.cmu.edu (Eugene Rindels)
Subject: no excuse for slow play
Keywords: slow play
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:33:46 GMT


There is no excuse for slow play and you don't have to play good to play fast.

I wish all courses would be marshaled.  If the people that were in charge of
courses in this country  were as concerned about the quality of your round of
golf as they are about the quality of their turf slow play would be none
existent.  

On a typical 18 hole course you have anywhere from 5 maintenance types to a
small army.  All with the sole purpose of producing a course in the best
condition possible.  The idea is the higher the quality of the conditioning of
the course the more enjoyable the round will be.  As we've seen
previously....that does mean squat.....

I've flushed more money down the toilet play on country clubs and fine resort
courses only to find out that I just paid for 6 hours of hell.  I'd rather hit
the ball around a cow pasture in Iowa with sand greens for 3 hours than 6 in
supposed golf heaven.

How often have we all begged for a Marshall to top the and come to our rescue.
My personal feeling is they should be armed maybe an M16A2 with an M203
grenade launcher....just for shock affect.

There really isn't any reason for any of this.  And for those of you out there
who may have played Brookhaven CC or are member(lucky stiffs) you know what I
mean.  At those courses, three all together, six somes can play around.  Yes,
thats right a SIXSOME.  And they do it on an average of 3 1/2 hours.  How can
this be you say.....Well Joe Black is or at least use to be the Pro down
there.  Thats right the former President of the PGA Joe Black.  He devised a
system that boarderd on genius yet was so very simple.  Joe calculated the
average times it took to play each hole at Brookhaven by the average golfer.
Then had those time printed on the scorecard.  Next restated the basic rules
of golf and golf etiquette.  Then followed it up by with these final standards
of play and the penalty for not adhering to the rules.  In other words you
knew where you stood from the beginning.  1. if you fall be hind once you get a
warning 2. fall be hind twice and it is back to the first tee unless your on
15th, if your on the 15th your done.  Oh, and for the sixsome, all players
must ride, each player plays his shot when he is ready not by who's out(except
for safety reasons) and on the green you only mark the ball if it is in
someones line and everyone puts out.

No one complained, everyone was happy, the system was just, and you almost
always played in less than 4 hours and were guaranteed to be finished in no
less than 4:15.  Shall we lobby congress to have put into law, YES.

This was some years ago and if policy has change at Brookhaven please let me
know.  Thanks

Gene
Eugene A. Rindels   E-Mail: ear@sei.cmu.edu
Real-Time Systems Program
Software Engineering Institute
Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf

> If your ball is sitting up nice and high in the
> rough, how often have you or have you seen someone
> address the ball and the ball suddenly moves into
> a poor lie?  i.e. you haven't touched the ball in
> your address but by the slight pressure of the club
> behind the ball, the ball drops.   The rule states
> you must declare a one shot penalty.   I think in
> the example just mentioned,  you have already
> penalized yourself by going from a nice 'flyer lie'
> to difficult shot out of the rough.
> 
> To avoid this one shot penalty, I will never ground
> my club in the rough upon address if I believe the
> ball may move.  However, this is one of those rules
> that I'd like to see changed.   Any comments or other
> rules that you'd like to see changed?
> 
> -Paul
> 
> ----------

I've got to disagree Paul.  

Firstly, the judgement of which lie was "better" is totally subjective.  While
you might prefer the original lie, others might worry about getting right under
the ball, for instance.  For them, your "poor" lie may suit them better.

Secondly, think about what the removal of the rule would permit in more general
terms:  if you like the lie, don't ground the club; if you think the ball might
move to somewhere more appealing, then ground it.  This gives people the chance
to choose between two lies in a situation where the tenet of 'play the ball as
it lies' is perfectly reasonable.  If the lie stinks that much, you can use
the 'unplayable' rule at your discretion.  
.............................................................................
I've never understood the rationale behind dishing out a penalty for hitting
the flagstick in the hole when putting from on the green.  Why can't it be a
movable obstruction just like any other, leaving you the option of removing it
or not ?  If no-one can explain this, then I'll maintain that it's the rule
that should go.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ian Watson, HP Pinewood Information Systems Division, England.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: sdberg@nv2.uswnvg.com (Scott Berg)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Extraordinary Claims, was Wide Body Drivers
Date: 15 Sep 92 18:04:09 GMT
Organization: US West NewVector, Inc., Bellevue, WA

In article <92258.090605JWHITE@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> JWHITE@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Jim White) writes:
>
>Scott Berg writes....
>
>>I must recommend the Taylor Made System 2 Mid-Size with a graphite shaft.  I
>>purchased mine this summer and now hit the ball about 45 yards further
>>(around 300yds) and hit my own :) fairway about 65% of the time (used to be
>>about 45%).  Now if I could only figure out a way to use it for my short
>>game!
>>
>
>
>Hmmmmm. Truly an extraordinary claim! I must admit to a certain amount of
>skepticism. Why, I wonder, how would the mere changing of a club cause such
>a dramatic improvement?
>
>Unless your previous club was..... say..... a marshmellow on a string, I'd
>speculate that, along with the club change, came a simultaneous improvement
>in your golf swing. Maybe the appealing 'look' of the club imbued you with
>a new found confidence..... maybe you took some lessons, or spent some time
>at a driving range practicing with your new club.
>

Ahem.  I must admit that my handicap came down this summer to 16.5 from 30+
due to a lot of practice.  However, I feel very strongly that the Taylor
Made was a big factor in my game's improvement.  Hitting with my previous
driver (and fairway woods) it was always a guess where the ball was going to
go.  At least I know by feel now where the ball is going and what kind of
action (draw or hook usually) to expect.  I think that feel has given me the
ability to self-correct to a certain extent.

I started playing golf last spring (May 1991) and went gonzo for the game.
While I agree with most of the postings here regarding the value of lessons
and time on the range, the biggest improvements in my game occured as a
direct result of playing a LOT of golf.  I bought a season's pass at a local
course this year and I play almost every morning before work.  (Over 100
rounds this year!)  So, I guess you are correct to say that my swing
probably improved simultaneously, but I think that the club(s) contributed
to that improvement.

>Unless your old club was truly awful, (cracked head, bent shaft...etc.),
>give yourself some credit. The club did not add 45 yards to your drive, while
>still maintaining a tighter dispersion pattern. You are doing something
>better than you were doing previously.
>
>
>Jim White


Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: scott@sklib.usask.ca
Subject: NEW LIST: Golf-L The Golf Discussion List (fwd)
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 02:56:07 GMT

Golf-L on LISTSERV@ubvm.bitnet
       or LISTSERV@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

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From: twete@tweety.wr.tek.com (Bob Twete)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Rules question
Summary: O. B. question
Keywords: O. B., Rules
Date: 8 Sep 92 00:48:40 GMT
Reply-To: twete@tweety.wr.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.



Here is a situation that happened to me ealier today. I am playing a
par 4 with O.B. to the left. I am left handed and I tend to slice.  My
second shot takes off like a rocket, takes a hard left turn, hits and
sticks in the fence.  The fence marks the O.B. line. There are no white
markers and the card notes that the fence is O. B. The ball is found
and identified as mine.

Question #1:
Is the ball O.B.?

Question #2:
If the ball is not O.B. what can I do?

I did hit a provisional, played the provisional and took a *.

P. S. -  I really enjoy hearing from the folks out of the U.S.

Thanks for the help,
RT
--------------------------------------------------
Bob Twete                      twete@tweety.WR.TEK.COM
Prism Engineering              503-629-3147
Tektronix Inc                  Beaverton, OR    
--------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)
Subject: Re: ETIQUITTE
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:40:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.182732.860@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dbingham@x400gate.bnr.ca writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.091843.657@rulway.LeidenUniv.nl>, crisar@rulcvx.LeidenUniv.nl (Anton van Rosmalen) writes:
>> Playing the local club tournemant , last sunday i boo-boo ed on the
>> second hole and teed - off a couple off incches in front off the marker
>> one playing partner immediatly after completing my swing corrected me 
>
>Your partner may have been guilty of giving advice (2 stroke penalty) if
>he had said anything before you hit.  You never said what penalty you were

Didn't we just go through this?

Quoting the rule book at any time on the golf course is not
giving advice.

Recognizing an infraction and failing to mention it is
against the rules, but only if one fails to mention it
while it can legally be corrected (with or without the
proper penalties); i.e., the partner has until Anton plays
his next shot to make the call.

The partner would have been right to prevent an infraction,
but is permitted to let the infraction occur and then make
the call, causing the penalty to accrue.

				--Blair
				  "Me: FOUR!
				   He: Don't you mean 'fore?'
				   Me: Not on this hole..."

P.S.  After another Arizona summer, the grass has lost.
The Foothills is ripping out its devastated Bent-grass
greens and replacing them with (aaaaiiiiiiieeee!)
Bermuda... my backyard is now a course I really don't think
I can enjoy playing...  They didn't go to Poa Annua because,
according to Mr. Manager, it grows fast and spotty, and
they'd have to mow the greens twice a day, and since this
ain't Pebble Beach it ain't gonna happen.  I am not happy.
From: green@astroatc.uucp (Brian Green)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Where to golf
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:22:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Astronautics Technology Cntr, Madison, WI




Hi Folks, going to the Hawaiian islands in early December for a couple of weeks.
I would really like to get in a round or two at a nice course without
paying hundreds of dollars for my wife and myself.
I will be in Kauai, Maui and Hawaii. Any suggestions?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: scramer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steve K Cramer)
Subject: Re: Wide-body drivers
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:00:49 GMT

I have a friend who uses a kids club! It's a Kaiser made for kids. He murders
the ball with it. After he drives we all yell, "Der Kaiser!"

Hey, whatever works I guess. :-0


*******************************************************************************
Steve Cramer               scramer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
"just hit it"              614-292-8481
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
From: engjs@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (James Smith)
Subject: Winfield cup minor semifinals
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 00:03:20 GMT

For those who missed it and are interested:

Major Preliminary Semifinal: St George 16 Illawarra 18
Minor Preliminary Semifinal: Newcastle 21 Wests 2

The Knights also thrashed Penrith in reserve grade and were narrowly
defeated by Souths in the President's Cup. :-)

Next week:

Major Semifinal: Brisbane vs. Illawarra
Minor Semifinal: St George vs. Newcastle

Brisbane, Illawarra and Newcastle have never won the Lung Cancer Cup.
St George won it eleven times in a row back in the 50s.

-- 
James J Smith             | "I couldn't get over it. All these women
School of Engineering     | in the world...and under their clothes
Newcastle University      | each and every one of them was naked, you
engjs@cc.newcastle.edu.au | know..." -- Psycho-killer, "Sandman"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
From: naicg@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: RFL results, 13th September
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:06:48 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

Winfield Cup play-offs (I think I've got the names right this week)

Major Semi-Final: Brisbane 22 Illawarra 12
Minor Semi-Final: St.George 3 Newcastle 2

Newcastle go out. Illawarra and St.George play in next weeks Preliminary 
Final, with the winner to face Brisbane in the Grand Final on 27th Sept.

Lancashire Cup, First Round:
Barrow 2 St.Helens 36
Blackpool 8 Workington 22
Leigh 50 Chorley 9
Oldham 33 Warrington 20
Rochdale 8 Wigan 36
Salford 60 Whitehaven 8
Swinton 40 Highfield 10
Widnes 52 Carlisle 8

Phil Ford(Salford) scored 5 tries. There were hat-tricks for Allan Hunte 
(St.Helens), Simon Garner(Swinton) and Iva Ropati(Oldham). Several players 
managed two tries, including Shaun Edwards(Wigan), Gary Connolly(St.Helens) 
and Kevin Ellis(Warrington). The only surprise result was Oldham's win 
over Warrington.

Yorkshire Cup, First Round:
Bradford 34 Bramley 22
Featherstone 40 Dewsbury 8
Huddersfield 16 Batley 8

Hull 14 (Tries: S.Gale,P.Harrison; Goals: P.Eastwood(3))
Hull KR 6 (Try: B.Sodje; Goal: M.Fletcher)

Leeds 28 Hunslet 20
Nottingham 4 Keighley 30

Sheffield 34 (Tries: D.Plange(3),G.Jack,D.Mycoe,P.Hughes; Goals: M.Aston(5))
Halifax 14 (Tries: J.Bentley(2),G.Divorty; Goal: P.Bishop)

Wakefield 54 Doncaster 14

David Plange was the only player to score more than two tries. Brimah 
Kebbie of Bradford scored two tries for the fourth successive game, with 
Paul Newlove (Featherstone) and Ellery Hanley (Leeds) also among those 
with two tries. Sheffield's win over top of the table Halifax was the 
only surprise (outside of Sheffield I suppose)

The second round of both Cups is on the 23rd September, but I don't know 
the draws yet.

Next weekend sees a return to Championship action. The Friday night game 
is Hull vs Warrington, and among the Sunday games are Sheffield-St.Helens, 
Widnes-Bradford and Wakefield-Wigan.

Ian
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
From: engjs@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (James Smith)
Subject: Re: Horan ??
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:45:07 GMT

Restless Wanderer writes:

> Grandfinal will be  Illawarra Vs St George with the mighty Saints to win.

How can the Saints make the grand final?  The Knights are going to knock
them out of the race this weekend!  Realistically, I reckon' it will be
Newcastle vs. Brisbane with Brisbane to win :-( :-( :-(.

Jim
-- 
James J Smith             | "I couldn't get over it. All these women
School of Engineering     | in the world...and under their clothes
Newcastle University      | each and every one of them was naked, you
engjs@cc.newcastle.edu.au | know..." -- Psycho-killer, "Sandman"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: ranfurly shield clash: Counties vs Auckland
From: andy@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Andy Bond)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 23:41:57 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Comp. Sci., Victoria Uni. of Wellington, New Zealand.
X-Mailer: mail-news 4.0


I was going to post this yesterday.  Auckland down 13-6 at half time.
Final score was 24-19 to Auckland.  Counties admitted that their
runaway 80-metre try in the first bit of the game showed how tired
Auckland was.  Seemed to insinuate that a full strength Auckland squad
wouldn't have taken it so close.  I don't know ...

andy