From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Walking her to the car.
Date: 15 Aug 92 11:50:26 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Aug14.222454.23867@news.acns.nwu.edu>, query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green) writes:
> In article <1992Aug14.094118.9424@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Aug14.100032.9183@news.acns.nwu.edu>, query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green) writes:
>>> Oops, forgot to put this in my earlier message.
>>> 	I will ask ANYONE who is going out at night (if I am around, of
>>> course) if they wwant an escort.  Men and women.  Usually, the men will
>>> decline.  Occasionally, the women will too.  I was told by a 'liberated' (I
>>> have no idea what, exacvtly, they are liberated from) woman that she
>>> thought that it was macho bullshit for me to offer to escort her.  She made
>>> it home safely that night, but, since she was so 'liberated', she went out
>>> many other times.  Eventually, someone saw her as a victim, and she was
>>> mugged and raped.  I don't think being 'liberated' is a very good reason
>>> for wanting to go out alone.
>>
>>She made her choices in terms of safety.
> 
> 	Actually, she made her choice in terms of feminist dogma.

True. She let the latter dictate her decision on the former.

And we are both about to get flamed big-time.

>>
>>
>>> 	Since that has happened, I now usually INSIST on escorting a woman
>>> to where she needs to go.  If she refuses, I will usually follow her from a
>>> distance of about a block, and then run up to her if it seems like
>>> something may happen.  Maybe thats wrong, if theyt said I should not go,
>>> but, hell, I would rather be stubborn and called a jerk or worse, than let
>>> someone get attacked.
>>
>>To force someone else to accept your viewpoint is wrong, and that is what you
>>do by not permitting her the autonomy of deciding whether she wants to walk
>>home alone. Why don't you at least be honest, walk up to a woman, and say, "I am
>>wlaking you home whether you like it or not. You can't refuse, because I'll
>>just follow you at  distance all the way home. You have no choice. Let's go."
>>
> 
> 	I have, in the past said that to people.  And, more often than not,
> they thanked me later for my concern.  Of course, I have been insulted or
> called an alarmist, a macho pig etc..  But, I am willing to risk insult if
> it means helping someone else avoid something worse...

You are not merely risking being called names, you are decding for toher people
what is best for them and what they WILL do--You WILL be escorted, like it or
not.

> 
> 
>>You know, it would be interesting if police cruised by, she waved them down,
>>and said that you wanted to go home with her, but when she declined, you
>>followed her out anyway, and she is worried YOU are planning on raping her.
>>
>>You could earn yourself a record with this behavior, as well as scare a lot of
>>women.
>>
>>Grow up. Let other people choose their life's course.
> 
> 	I usually do, I just don't in the matter of letting them do
> something that is so dangerous that they might not get a chance to learn
> from it.  If someone wants to do something that I dissagree with, more
> power to them.  As long as they will at least have the opportunity to
> realize that it was either a mistake, and learn from it, or realize that it
> was not a mistake.  It is kind of hard to learn from your errors when you
> are dead...  And, I think that getting attacked because you chose to go it
> alone is not an experience that is necessary.  It can be prevented, or at
> least the risks made smaller.
> 	As far as tho police picking me up, I am aware of no laws in which
> it is illegal for a person to walk down the same street as someone...  Yes,
> the cops COULD harrass me, but, what can they arrest me for?  Record?  My
> ass.  I could say the truth, that I am worried about his/her safety in
> these parts, and that s/he refused an escort, so I decided to watch out for
> him/her, or I could just lie and say that s/he is just paranoid and I have
> never met them in my life.  Anyway, if I were to be arrested for that, then
> I would worry more about the cops record after that than mine.  It's not a
> crime, you know.

You meet a woman at a party, talk to her, offer to "take her home", when she
declines your offer, you follw her home anyway.

You think the police will not look at YOU as a rapist?

You think that they will not arrest you for SOMETHING? (Refusal to cooperate
with a police officer in his/her official duties, followed by resisting
arrest.)

You worry about THEIR records? You think someone with a cam-corder will be
there to record your conversation with them? When you are before the judge,
they will tell their story, you will tell yours, and you will be found guilty.

DO NOT KID YOURSELF! Judges and juries both view a police officer's testimnoy
as being much more honest that they accused who is claimng "They made it up!"


> 
>>
>>> 	As far as following the guys who walk alone, I usually will do that
>>> too, just in case.  Anyone can get jumped. I have been attacked a few
>>> times, and in one case, I was lucky enough to have been spotted by a friend
>>> and helped out.  
>>> 	Call me stupid, but, I am willing to take a risk that I have been
>>> informed about and trained to deal with (as much as you can be prepared for
>>> an attack, I guess) if it means that someone who may or may not have been
>>> trained as well might be in danger.  I don't think this makes me a hero, or
>>> anything like that, I just think that it gives someone else a better chance
>>> of avoiding an attack.
>>> 	Sam
>>
>>Gee Sam, where you ever attacked while walking BACK from one of your
>>involuntary escort trips? Don't you realize ALL you are doing is taking the
>>odds someone else will be a victim and transferring them to you?
> 
> 	1) NONE of my trips are involuntary.  I do them because I feel the
> necessity to.  I am happy to do them.  And, yes, I do realize trhat I am
> adding a risk to myself, and, if you look rather closely at the paragraph
> of mine above (the one that you quoted in your response) you would see that
> I acknowledge the increase of risk to myself, for the reason that I have
> had some training that most have not, and based on my past experiences,
> have used that training to lessen my risks a bit.  I am willing to take a
> chance on something happening to me BECAUSE I FEEL THAT I WOULD BE BETTER
> ABLE TO DEAL WITH IT THAN SOMEONE ELSE.  

I am gald we all have Sam to protect us from our own folly!

>>
>>I mean, if that is what you want to do, it is a free country, knock yourself
>>out. Just don't act surprised when it happens, 'cause you are making yourself a
>>prime candidate for sharing experiences with the woman in your first paragraph.
>>
> 
> 	Hey, like I said, I have been attacked several times, with varying
> intents, and I am still alive, healthy, and happy with life.  I know the
> risks, and I accept them.  No one is putting a gun to my head and forcing
> me to escort people.  

Right. You merely force other people to accept YOUR views.


>>DC
> 
> Sam
> 
> PS:  SInce, after reading my words in the above paragraph, where it says
> that I understand the risks and so forth, and I feel better able to deal
> with an attack situation, and also seeing my response, restating my
> position on that, could you, DC, please not use the "Don't you know
> the risks?  Dont you realize that all you do is increase your personal
> danger?" idea anymore.  I have answerred it several times in language that
> is fairly unequivocal, and I would preferr a discussion on this more
> appropriate to this forum, rather than just being told that I am waiting to
> become a victim...  I think that I know this, and, also, like I said, I
> think that I am more prepared to deal with that situation, if it comes up
> again.
> 

I am fully aware that you know the risks. What you are not aware of is that you
are forcing other people to accept your views by forcefully escorting them.

DC
Newsgroups: talk.rape