From: cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 01:36:43 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: mickey.cc.utexas.edu

In article <C1DwrB.EAp@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
>>Well, he better not run any of the modules, or use all that -lovely- hardware
>>listed in books, 90% of which is there to make one a better killing machine.
>Well, if you run modules unaltered as your primary source of campaign
>material, you are an unimaginative dolt. 

<suppressed laughter> I've never run a module unalter, or even -altered-, in
my entire gaming career. This includes my larval AD&D stage.

Of course FASA pumps out
>"Kill 'em all!!!" modules. Why? They sell like hotcakes. Most campaign
>material appeals to the lowest common denominator. 

What does this say about the average SR campaign? 

This is what I've been trying to say all along; SR -encourages- gunfire-
based games, with minimal roleplaying and lots of cool hardware. 

>>Look, one can do very interesting campaigns set in -any- universe, if one is
>>willing to work at it. This is a net.axiom. But, IMHO, the ShadowRun universe
>>is derivative, phony-feeling, and lacking in depth, with almost everything
>>designed around the bloody 'Shadowrun' player coercion method. 
>Well, at least there is a universe. You may not like it, but there is one
>there.

This, in my view, is -not- a Good Thing. Having the game rules linked to a 
specific background, when you're dealing with a general genre like fantasy, 
SF, or cyberpunk, is asking for trouble....  (IMHO)

I've always wanted to put 'Real GM's don't use prepackaged universes' in my 
.sig, but I didn't think I'd want to deal with the flamage.

 Heck, the really valuable thing to us is that items have names.
>Ares Predator II vs. Colt Manhunter debates between samurai are things
>that would happen..of course in a GURPS world where all weapons are 
>generic GUN in black and white, there is none of that.

But what if one doesn't -like- those names? I think the 'Ares Predator II'
sounds like a bad action movie, and not a -gun- fer Christ's sake. I -like-
being given a baseline 'gun', which you can then twiddle the stats for, and
produce a number of weapons that fit -your- universe. Which is the whole point,
when one runs something like Shadowrun, where -everything- these days is 
fleshed out (they listed the #$@! FOOTBALL TEAMS in one book), one's own 
creativity doesn't get a chance to work. 

 FASA gives you 
>a universe you can start with, and I think that's very important for
>a GM. You can put your own personal touch on their universe.

Uh huh. And then have your players show up with the latest 'Neo-Anarchist's
Guide to Fast Food Restaurants' and your whole current plotline gets bitched
at. No thanks.

 Creating
>your own universe from whole cloth..*laugh* I go to school, I don't 
>have that kind of time. 

I've been going to school, -and- looking for work, -and- having an active
social life, and universe creation has never been a problem for me or my 
gaming group(s). 
>GURPS products have always suffered from this. You may not like the flavor
>of FASA or ADD universe, but at least there is one. GURPS supplements all
>feel so devoid of any life to me. 

That's funny, Shadowrun and the like always felt like overkill to me. GURPS
supplements are like amino acids, compared to Shadowrun's fully sentient life
form. With GURPS, creating a universe, and making mods to it is -easy-, because
you're working on a small scale. With SR and co, trying to make mods is a pain
because they've got the damn thing so built up.....

-- 
    "Well, do you ever get the feeling that the Story's too damn real
                        and in the present tense?"
               Christian Wagner - cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy