From: wiggins@hurricane.cs.odu.edu (Samuel E Wiggins)
Subject: Re: Jesus not a prophet, Son of God
Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA, USA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 05:28:49 GMT

In-reply-to: d89-gsk@nada.kth.se's message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 11:43:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.114345.4695@kth.se> d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi) writes:
   |> |In response to Richard Pitts on what does the Qur'an say about Jesus:
   |> 
   |> I didn't ask where are they different.  The Quran gives evidence that 
   |> Jesus is different than all other people - that he was born of a virgin
   |> and was himself sinless.
   |> 

   It also says:
   In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
   (3:59)"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He
   created him from dust, then said to him: "be": and he was."
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Jesus Himself said, in the NT:
"And no man has ascended into heaven, except he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man who is in heaven."  (John 3:13)
Jesus used to call himself the "Son of man."  Do prophets come from heaven,
or aren't they born and don't they live normally?
-------
   Secondly all prophets are looked upon as sinless, not only Jesus (pbuh) 
   in Islam.....
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The OT says:
"God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there is
anyone who understands, who seeks after God.  Every one of them has turned
aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good,
not even one."  Psalm (of David) 53, v. 2-3.
This would include prophets.
AND, in the NT:
"...because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight;
for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. ...for all have sinned and
fall short of the glory of God,..." (Romans 3:20,23)
Meaning no one, including prophets, measures up to God's perfect standards.
AND, yet, speaking of Jesus the Messiah, Isa al-Masih:
"...we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.  He (God) made Him
(Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the
righteousness of God in Him."  (2 Corinthians 5:20-21)
According to Christianity no man is sinless, except this one.
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   |> 
   |> Contrary???  Only if the Holy Spirit didn't come and the coming comforter
   |> was to be Ahamd.  However, the holy spirit did come and it is not Ahamd.

   But the holy spirit was there all the time....
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In the OT, God gave the Holy Spirit only to a few.  In the NT and thereafter,
the Holy Spirit is given only to those who follow Christ:
Isa (Jesus) said, "And I will ask the Father and He will give you another
Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of Truth, whom the
world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know
Him because He abides with you and will be in you... But the Helper, the Holy
Spirit, whom the Father will send **IN MY NAME**, He will teach you all things,
and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."  (John 14:16-17,26)
Only Christians have the Holy Spirit.
-------
   (John 16:7)"However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when
   I say it is profitable for you that I go away. Because if I do not
   go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go away, I
   will send Him to you."

   You see. how could Jesus (pbuh) send something to the world which always 
   has been there even before Jesus (pbuh)?
   When Jesus(pbuh) sent out his disciples in their mission of preaching
   and healing people whith what did they according to Christianity heal
   people with?
   The Holy Spirit (the holy Ghost).
-------
True enough.
-------
   And John the Babtist when he was in his mothers womb he also had the
   holy Spirit (Ghost), if you remember.
   Before Jesus (pbuh) departed he called his disciples and told them :
   recieve ye the holy Spirit.
   So when he said recieve, either they recieved or he was bluffing.
   So either Jesus (pbuh) is a lier or else they recieved.

   "...Because if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you;
   but if I go away, I will send Him to you."

   So Jesus (pbuh) has to *GO AWAY* if he should come. Otherwise he wont
   come.
   But the Holy Ghost was there whith them all the time, and they rec-
   ieved "him/her" when Jesus (pbuh) was there *WITH THEM*. He didn't have
   to *GO AWAY* first so that he could be able to *SEND* "him/her" to them.
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Wrong.  You make up your own truth.  This is not what Isa said.
Isa al-Masih did say, "But, I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage
that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you;
but if I go, I will send Him to you... But when He, the Spirit of truth
comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His
own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to
you what is to come.  HE SHALL GLORIFY ME; for He shall take of Mine, and
shall disclose it to you." (John 16:7,13-14)
The Holy Spirit's job is to glorify, praise, work for, Jesus the Messiah.
-------
   Disciples               John 20:21-22
   John the Baptist        Luke 1:15
   Elizabeth               Luke 1:41
   Zacharias               Luke 1:67
   Simeon                  Luke 2:26
   Jesus                   Luke 3:22

   So how can the holy spirit be the comforter when Jesus (pbuh) is reported
   to have claimed that he has to go away before the comforter can come???
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If the Comforter were NOT there to begin with and NOT in full force and
NOT freely given to believers.
-------
   It must be referring to someone else....
   Propably the *prophet*.....

   John:(1:19-21)"And this is the testimony of John when the Jews sent Priests
   and Levites to him from Jerusalem to ask him who are you?
   He confessed and did not try to conceal it, but acknowledged, I am not
   the Christ! They asked him. What then? Are you Elijah? And he said, I am not!
   Are you the Prophet? And he answered, No!"
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The Prophet they referred to was Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God.  The
Jews called Him a prophet (Matthew 21:11, "And the multitudes were saying,
"This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.").  He DID NOT CLAIM
to be a prophet.  Look:
Jesus speaking of Himself, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a
sign... behold, something greater than Jonah is here. ...behold, something
greater than Solomon is here."  (Matthew 12:39,41,42)
The people thought He was a prophet; yet He claimed to be more, including
the Son of God.
Isa asked the disciples, "Who do the multitudes say that I am?"
"And, they answered and said, 'John the Baptist, and others say Elijah;
but others, that one of the prophets of old has risen again.  And He said
to them, 'But who do you say that I am?'  Peter answered and said, 'The Christ
of God.'  But He warned them, and instructed them not to tell this to anyone."
So that the plan for Him to be crucified and resurrected could be accomplished.
(Luke 9:18-22)
-------
   These verses show that the Jews where expecting three different personalites:
   1. Christ, the Messiah (=Jesus, pbuh).
   2. Elijah (= John the babtist, pbuh, according to Jesus(pbuh) own words).
   3. The Prophet (=?).

   In Christianity you are told that the Messiah and the Prophet is the same
   person.
   But is that true?
   According to us Muslims it isn't.
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So.
-------
   There were *THREE* questions regarding *THREE* different persons, therefore we
   have to draw the conclusion that the Jews were waiting on *THREE* persons.
-------
Possibly, and they were mistaken.  What God DID was not necessarily what the
Jews wanted.  But, the OT never said for them to wait for three people, like
this.  It foretold the Messiah and the prophet to PREPARE the way for the
Messiah.
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   |> 
   |> |            What was the fate of Jesus vis-a-vis the so-called crucifixion?
   |> |            The Qur'an admonishes those who say that Jesus died or was
   |> |            crucified:
   |> |                      "They slew him (Jesus) not, nor crucified him, but it
   |> |                       appeared so unto them; and behold| those who disagree
   |> 
   |> What does this mean "it appeared so"?
   |> 

   :-).....
   It means: It didn't happen!!!!!!!
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But Isa said He would need to die!  He said, "The Son of Man must suffer many
things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and BE
KILLED, AND BE RAISED UP on the third day."  (Luke 9:22)  So, is Isa al-Masih
a LIAR?  That would make him a sinner, right?  That would make him not a 
prophet, since all prophets are sinless, right?  So, in Islam, Isa al-Masih
cannot be a prophet.  If we believe what He said on its own, we must either
believe He was not a prophet (rather the Son of God=God), or else a liar.
-------
   |> 
   |> Maybe you have it confused?  Maybe Jesus' resurrection is what you
   |> are referring to.  He did die and rose from the dead - this could lead
   |> people to think that he never died, but those who were there tell us
   |> that he did.  Does the Quran agree that Jesus was nailed to the cross -
   |> it is hard to tell from the above passage.
   |> 
   |> |            Muslims maintain that the virgin birth of Jesus without a father
   |> |            was not any more supernatural than the creation of Adam, who
   |> |            neither had a father nor a mother:
   |> 
   |> BUT IT IS DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER BIRTH.  Why would the next to last
   |> prophet in Islam be born this way? 

   Why not???
   If it was in the will of God He could make thousands of small christs with 
   miracolous births....
   It is actually nothing special with it.....

   Jesus (pbuh) was born without a father... So what???? God is the Greatest..
   He does whatever He wants.....
-------
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things came into being by Him,
and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
And, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory
as of the Only Begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.  John bore
witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who
comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'  For of
His fulness we have all received, and grace upon grace.  For the Law was given 
through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.  No man
has seen God at any time; the Only Begotten God, who is in the bosom of the
Father, He has explained Him."  (John 1:1-3,14-18)  Jesus is God, as God
the Father is God.
-------
   |> 
   |> |       "Behold| The likeness of Jesus before God is the likeness of
   |> |       Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him, "Be" (kun)
   |> |       and he was." (Qur'an 3:59)
   |> |
   |> |       "..... , and the Christians say: The messiah is the son of God.
   |> |
   |> |       That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the
   |> |       saying of those who disbelieved of old. God (Himself) opposes
   |> |       them. How perverse are they|" (Qur'an 9:30)
-------
See comments following.
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   |> |       "The messiah, son of Maryam, was no other than a messenger,
   |> |       messengers (the like of whom) had passed before him. And his
   |> |       mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat(earthly)
   |> |       food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; yet see
   |> |       in what ways they are turned away." (Qur'an 5:78)
   |> 
   |> Is this saying Jesus and his mother turned away from the Lord?
   |> 

   No.... 
-------
Already hit this one.
-------
 |> |"Therefore, woe be unto those who write the scripture with their hands and
 |> |then say "This is from Allah", that they may purchase a small gain therewith.
   |> |Woe unto them for that what their hands  have written, and woe unto them for
   |> |that they earn thereby." (Qur'an 2:79)
   |> 
   |> How do you get this speaks about the NT?  We sure don't claim it is from
   |> Allah, but Jehovah - THE LORD ALMIGHTY.  Maybe this admonition is for
   |> those who wrote something else.  

   :-)...
   There is only one God, right???
   So what is the difference if you call this god Allah or Jehovah????
-------
Big difference.  The Christians and Jews agree on who YHWH is.  Who is
Allah, really?  Is he really The LORD?  See next comment of mine.
-------
   The admonition is for those who believe in the one *true* God, the God of Abraham,
   Moses, Jesus, Muhammed and all the prophets that have been sent by Him (pbuta).
-------
     "If we receive the witness of men, the withess of God is greater; for the
witness of God is this, that He has borne witness concerning His Son.  The one
who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does
not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the
witness that God has borne concerning His Son.  And the witness is this, that
God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.  He who has the
Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
(1 John 5:9-12)
     ALSO:
"And, after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and 
behold, the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending as a
dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying,
'This is My Beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'"  (Matthew 3:16-17)
     GOD ALMIGHTY, The YHWH of old, The LORD, The Only God has said Jesus is
His Son.  This is tantamount to equality with God, because:
"For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, 
because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own
Father, making Himself equal with God.  Jesus therefore answered and was
saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself,
unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does,
these things the Son also does in like manner.  For the Father loves the Son,
and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and greater works than
these will He show Him, that you may marvel.  For just as the Father raises
the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He
wishes.  For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment
to the Son, IN ORDER THAT ALL MAY HONOR THE SON, EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER.
HE WHO DOES NOT HONOR THE SON DOES NOT HONOR THE FATHER WHO SENT HIM."
(John 5:18-23)
     Jesus claimed equality with God.  You cannot say He was a prophet, when He
clearly claims to be MORE.  You must call him a liar or agree.  If you agree,
then you must agree that He is the Son of God and is God, therefore.  Either
way, He cannot be just a prophet.  If you disagree, then we must say He was
a liar and sinner and not a prophet, for He claimed to be more and claimed
to be God's Son.
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   |> 
   |> For Christ and His Kingdom,
   |> Richard Pitts

   For the one and *only* God, the God of Abraham and *His* Kingdom,
-------
"And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He
had answered them well, asked Him, "'What commandment is the foremost of all?'
Jesus answered, 'The foremost is, 'Hear O Israel!  There is One LORD, The
LORD *Our* God; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart,
and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'"
(Mark 12:28-29)
-------
   Gani Skepi
   d89-gsk@nada.kth.se
-------
Sam Wiggins, no one special
for the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel);
Jesus the Messiah, Isa al-Masih, said,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am."
(John 8:58)