From: mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: Royal Roads Military College, Victoria, B.C.
Distribution: world,public
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:01:20 GMT


In article <1993Jan7.213626.1394@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan7.000554.5134@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes:
|> >In article <1993Jan6.190706.20382@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> [I've deleted all but Malcolm's article in an attempt to reduce the
|> >|>  length.]
|> 
|> [I've deleted some of Simon's article to save space as well]
|> 
|> There are a number of logical flaws in here. Firstly, I cannot reasonably
|> be said to be "punishing God" for anything, since I do not believe that
|> any deities exist in the first place. Secondly, I fail utterly to see how
|> my rant about the utility of reason in dispelling religious delusions
|> (deleted to save bandwidth) can sensibly be interpreted as an attempt to
|> punish God, my unbelief notwithstanding. Thirdly, I emphatically do *not*
|> resent my loss of said delusions, and thus have no reason to punish anybody
|> for it. Fourthly, the assertion that "God would do nothing that wasn't for
|> your own good even if it involves pain" sits uneasily with the notion of
|> eternal torture, from which it appears that no benefit can come since by
|> that stage it's already too late.
|> 
You are punishing God by rejecting Him.  A father would be pained if his son
rejected him.  Same with God.
When I refer to God giving some painful lessons, these lessons are received 
while we are on earth and there is still opportunity to repent.  These lessons
are no more so than any caring parent would give his/her child.  As to the
eternal torment of Hell (which I assume you are referring to), that torment comes
as a result of the total abscence of God.  In each and every one of us, there 
resides a small part of God.  Some would refer to it as their conscience.  In
Hell, God is not present.  Even that small part of Him would no longer be there.
Ones who are in Hell are in torment because there is no God for them.


|> > I've never been omnipotent. How would I know what God wants? IMHO, I think
|> > God created us because He was lonely and needed loving companions. He did not
|> > want robots or pets to provide Him with company. He wanted loving companions
|> > who would choose to be with Him. Think about it. Would you tolerate someone
|> > who was an enemy in your house?
|> 
|> You guys appear to know The Mind Of God pretty well when it comes to making
|> bold claims such as "God would do nothing that wasn't for your own good even
|> if it involves pain", as you did above, and issuing assurances that God loves
|> us, sinners included, and so forth. When the dogma is analysed and its
|> consequences traced and found to be nonsensical, all of a sudden it's Who
|> Can Know The Mind Of God time. The purpose of that paraphrased e-mail example
|> I included was to illustrate this process of finely-tuned and parrot-learned
|> illogic in action, propping up belief in an obviously untenable position. You
|> have, very predictably, utterly failed to get it.
|> 
|> > Reason and logic. We are not Vulcans. We have emotions and, yes, sometimes
|> > feelings are not reasonable and not logical. My faith is not based solely
|> > on feelings and flowery passages. Having been a sinner for 25 years and a
|> > believer for 6 years, my faith is based on personnal experience. I have
|> > felt God's presence and heard His voice. He is real! He is real! Jesus lives!
|> 
|> Easy does it, Malcolm. I do not deny that we have emotions. In fact, I *love*
|> emotion, if I may be circular for a moment, and intense emotional experiences
|> of a certain kind (i.e. pleasant ones) are something which I positively seek
|> out. The experience of great emotional highs and lows provides profound insight
|> into one's humanity, and I wouldn't miss it for the proverbial world.
|> 
|> But there is a great danger here, and a caveat which needs to be sounded:
|> emotion is *no* basis on which to ascertain the truth or otherwise of claims
|> relating to matters of objective fact. That *must* be the domain of logic
|> and reason alone, for the simple reason that objective fact does *not*
|> (by definition: objective = observer-independent) yield to our personal
|> desires for it.
|> 
|> So while the inspirational nature of Bartok's first string quartet, or of
|> heavy industrial grunge `a la Godflesh, or of a Buddhist temple halfway up
|> a mountain in swirling mist (my personal favourite) are in the eye of the
|> beholder (in these cases me), and are the undisputed realm of emotion and
|> subjectivity, claims for the objective existence of gods or moons made of
|> green cheese *cannot* be evaluated by subjective emotional reaction.
|> 
|> The claims of your religion and many others are in the objective domain
|> and *must* be evaluated by reason alone.
|> 
|> Cheers
|> 
|> Simon
|> -- 
|> Simon Clippingdale                simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
|> Department of Computer Science    Tel (+44) 203 523296
|> University of Warwick             FAX (+44) 203 525714
|> Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.

Reason cannot explain everything.  I am safe in saying that Mankind does not
know everything and has not been able to reason everything out.  What are the
reasons for emotions?  I know for sure what I have experienced.  I have felt
God's touch and I've glimpsed what visions He would have me see.  These things
are not so easily explained but they are nonetheless, real.  I've never taken
drugs and I haven't touched a drop of alcohol for the 6 years since becoming
a Christian, so my experiences were not delusions.  I've stood up in public
proclaiming the good news of the Word of God.  This is something I would not
have been capable of before.  Where does this power come from?  
 
I tell you, it is the power of God's Spirit.

God be with you.
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