From: morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy)
Subject: Re: A fresh start. Negroes need not apply
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 20:35:54 GMT

trev@hubcap.clemson.edu (Trevor Bauknight) writes:

>>The United States is a country built on a murderous and exploitative basis.
>Certainly.

As was the CSA, even more explicitly.

>>discussion of the legitimacy of the CSA is roughly comparable to discussions
>>of angels dancing on the head of a pin.
>Why is the USA any more legitimate than the CSA was, in principle?  You may
>not believe it is, but you failed to include the question of the USA's 
>legitimacy in your analogy while at the same time declaring both countries 
>"morally bankrupt." 

Thank you for the correction. Your point is certainly well taken.

>>That last sentence is classic. I suppose that refusing to concede the
>>plausibility of Hitler's arguments is also divisive?
>As a Southerner, I can certainly understand SOME of the motivations of the
>CSA, and I don't appreciate the implication that, for that reason, I would
>be willing to concede the plausibility of Hitler's arguments.

Yes, I'm sure you don't. Yet the situation in the CSA certainly was a crime 
against humanity of as great a magnitude as the situation in Hitler's Germany.
It also endured for centuries, as opposed to a few years. The death toll was
far greater, despite inferior technology and the lack of an articulated ideology
of genocide as such.

I understand the motivations of the South, too. Greed, racism and the arrogance
that comes with being able to get away with horrific crimes for extended periods
of time.

>>Yeah, as the LA riots illustrate. I predict that the US will erupt in a race 
>>war by the middle of the next century. It is a war that has been incipient in
>>this country for centuries.
>Sure.  Especially since people like you continue to insult those of us who
>hold to those tenets of self-determination which refer to the celebration
>and appreciation of one's culture and heritage as if we don't have the 
>right because we are white.  I agree with some of your points, but you're
>swinging too broad an axe.   

Your culture and heritage are built on the blood and suffering of mine. You can
celebrate that if you wish. I will implacably seek to stop your party.

>>White southerners sought to annihilate the prospect of economic
>>competition from newly freed blacks. Simple greed was their motivation, along
>>with a heavy dose of racist ideology.
>Among other things.  White southerners also sought equal participation in
>the Federal Government, sought to retain their sovereignty and birthright,
>sought to nullify laws which unfairly restricted their commerce, etc.  I 
>don't mean to imply that I believe slavery was acceptable because it was a 
>part of these things, but that it was only a part.  Most Southerners didn't 
>own slaves, after all.  I abhor all slavery, but I can understand why those 
>Southerners who did not own slaves and had no vested interest in the survival
>of the institution volunteered to fight for their state and their country.  
>While I might not feel this allegiance toward the USA, I do feel this way 
>toward the part of the country which I love.

You've failed to rebut my point. I rest my case. All your statements are 
rationalizations, and you and I know the real deal.

>Objecting to being prodded by an essentially foreign group of people is not
>"ethics of convenience."  It's like my own objections to your posts.  Even
>though I despise slavery and racism and agree withs some of your points, I 
>object to being indirectly labelled a Hitler apologist because I believe in
>some of the things the CSA stood for.

I'd be more than happy to label you directly if you feel that refusing to 
dismantle its evil enterprise made the South merely "objecting to being 
prodded by an essentially foreign group of people". That's neither here nor
there, though. The simple fact is that history is replete with power hungry
elites clinging to power. Relative to the millions of half-clothed, overworked
slaves, the non-slave-owning whites were a powerful group, insulated from
unwelcome economic competition. It is their singular interest in preserving this
situation that motivated them above all else to defend their evil empire.
Jones
-- 
Jones M Murphy Jr                                        (212) 602-4375
NatWest Investment Bancorp, National Westminster Bank PLC
100 Wall Street, New York, NY10005                   FAX (212) 269-0113