From: riacmt@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Carol Miller-Tutzauer)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Pets for kids, no barking, and outdoor dogs (was Re: Thanks for all the "helpful" suggestions
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:20:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Apr13.191547.11682@b15.b15.ingr.com>, lynn@b15.b15.ingr.com (Lynn Lee) writes...
> 
  >I posted recently and asked for suggestions on a child's pet for a friend.
  > 
  >What I got was a lot of mail saying that insinuated that by even asking
  >such a question, I obviously do not love dogs.
  > 
  >A little background here...
  > 
  >Lynn


Lynn -- First, let me say that I apologize if anything I said via
email offended you.  I'm not sure if it was my email or that of
others that upset you, but I surely did not intend that.

Briefly, I mentioned that "outdoor" dogs are generally not a good
idea, they need to bond with a "pack", and I can't remember if
I mentioned crating the dog -- that probably wasn't me.  I do
indeed use a crate on occasion with my dogs, but these days they
are doing so well having run of the house I have found it 
unnecessary in most cases.  But my dogs are just past the 
housebreaking stage and I used it primarily for that purpose
while they were young.  Now I keep it open and they just go in
and out of it to take naps and gnaw on rawhide bones.  I also
recommended that you get the book "How to Be Your Dog's Best
Friend" by the Monks of New Skete, though I noticed that a 
lot of other people also recommended that book.  Other books I
mentioned were The Art of Raising a Puppy by the Monks and
Carol Lea Benjamin's book, Mother Knows Best.

Unfortunately, all too often, here on the net we get posts from
people asking for recommendations about getting a pet.  Just
as in your post for your friend, there is little if any information
about what the person already knows about dogs or what experience
they've had or what reading they've already done.  A great many
people reading rec.pets.dogs work in shelters.  Everyday they
hear well-meaning but uninformed people say they want "a pet for
a child" or a "protection dog" or "an outdoor dog".  They also
know from experience that 90-95% of these dogs will die or be
returned to the shelter within a year of the original adoption.
As such, most shelters engage in more extensive screening of
applicants based upon their experiences.  Our local shelter,
for example, immediately becomes suspect when such terms as the
ones I have quoted above appear on application forms.  Another
thing they won't do is allow college students to adopt pets --
for the same reasons (they are abandoned when people move on
or are returned within a year of adoption).

Here on the net, we are all happy when we read a post like the
following:

	"OK... I've read the following books, and I'm ready to start
	thinking about getting my own puppy.  I'm thinking about the
	following breeds because I have the following lifestyle
	concerns (... insert things like working all day, small house,
	maybe live on a farm, good with kids or don't care, etc ...).
	How do I get in touch with a responsible breeder (OR... how
	do I choose a good puppy from a shelter, knowing so little
	about the background of the dog and its litter)?"

As you can see, in this case, we know from the books the person
has read what kind of things they already know, the philosophy
of the author, we know about the person's lifestyle and 
behavioral/temperament concerns.  By simply posting that "a friend
wants a pet for a child", it should be an "outdoor dog", and
"it shouldn't bark", you may have not meant anything bad, but
these remarks are RED FLAGS in shelter adoptions.  It doesn't
mean that EVERYONE who says such things would be a bad owner,
but 90-95% that say such things statistically ARE irresponsible
or insufficiently informed owners.

"A friend wants a pet for a child" -- Too often this translates
into a situation where the child is begging for a dog, the
parent gives in, but the parent expects or anticipates that the
care of the animal will be left up to the child.  It is a rare
child (there are exceptions -- an 11-yr-old I know that trains
guide dogs for the blind is one I know of), that is well-informed
and responsible enough to take responsibility for a dog.

"It should be an outdoor dog" -- This usually translates into "I
am gone a lot and can't keep the dog indoors" or "I don't want
dog-hair on my furniture."  Let's face it, neither of these
situations is really good for the dog.  Some people have outdoor
dogs because they work them (pulling or sled or protection dogs),
but such a situation requires COMPENSATORY actions by the owner,
namely lots of special attention and special facilities that
must be constructed to protect the dogs.  [Just in the past two
weeks we've seen two postings from people whose dogs have been
stolen from their back yards, and one person with 2 of her 3
dogs having been poisoned, another person whose dogs are taunted
by a neighbor and now another neighbor is complaining about
barking etc.]  Puppies cannot start their lives outdoors, and
it takes acclimation to weather conditions, careful socialization,
etc., for the dog to successfully adapt to outdoor living.

"The dog shouldn't bark too much." -- To most people here, this
isn't a very enlightened request.  It implies that the individual
really doesn't know too much about dogs.  Why?  Because barking
is almost exclusively a behavioral problem and rarely (if ever)
based in genetics or heredity.  Some dogs are physically 
incapable of barking, but does that mean they don't make noise?
Absolutely not -- instead, they yodel or yowl or howl or whine.
To most neighbors, the latter noises are more annoying than a
dog that barks.  Additionally, low gutteral barks are easier on
the ears than high-pitched barks.  Finally, most dog barking
problems arise from so-called "outdoor dogs." 

Sorry if I've taken too much of your time, but as a member of PETA,
surely you can understand the response to your original post.  In
the future, try to give more information.  What books has your
friend read?  Quite frankly, if your friend hasn't already read
the Monks books, she should do so.  Have you read them?  When we
use the term "crating", most of us are referring to the use of
the crate as outlined in those books -- RESPONSIBLE use as a
training technique.  If used properly early on, the dog will
not need to be crated as an adult.  Most of the flame wars on
the issue that have occurred in the past in this newsgroup have
stemmed from the excess mental baggage that people attach to the
term.  Those who train dogs and help other people solve behavioral
problems with their dogs use the term in a very specific, technical
sense that is often misunderstood by others.  After all, your
vet "crates" your dog prior to and after surgery.  You dog is
"crated" in some sense when boarded.  And the dog is effectively
crated when allowed in your bedroom at night.  That's all.  You
are certainly entitled to your opinion on the issue, and I 
understand your viewpoint.  That is why I also try to work
with the dogs so that they don't require crating once they are
older.  On the other hand, I would NEVER risk leaving them in
my back yard unattended.  Thiefs prefer the dogs to be outside
-- they are easier to poison that way.  

As for living in a rural area, I offer the following alternate
view:  (From the Monks of New Skete, "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend")

"There is no doubt about it: dogs do like life in the country.  Each
year, thousands of dogs go on vacation with their owners.  They
travel to the seashore, to the woods, to the mountains.  Many clients
who live the greater part of the year in the city have told us about
the amazing transformation that comes over their pet once it settles
into the summer retreat.  The fresh air, open space, and freedom from
normal restrictions can do wonders for a dog.  Dogs who live in the
country all year enjoy an environment that closely resembles the
milieu of their wolf ancestors.
	"But canine country life can have its problems too.  Many
potential problems have to do with the fact that while life in
the country is freer than life in the city or suburb, the dog 
still must be responsibly restricted.  The 'myth of the country
dog' states that a dog in the country is free to come and go as
it pleases, need not spend any length of time indoors, and
actually prefers to live outdoors.  This may be true of certain
rare dogs, but this is usually the owner's conception of canine
liberty, not the dog's.  Life in the country unfortunately allows
owners to force their conception of canine happiness on their
dogs more easily.  We have heard many troubled urban or suburban 
problem-dog owners say, 'What Fido needs is a family in the country
that would take him -- then he could just run all day.' Trouble is
even in the country Fido can't 'run all day' without getting
into some kind of trouble."

[The Monks then go on to talk about several examples of dogs 
widening their "territory", engaging in "predatory behavior",
gradually forming a "pack" apart from the members of the 
household.  Obviously, theirs is not the one and only philosophy,
but they have studied dog behavior for decades.]

The Monks have the following to say about "Outdoor Life":

	"Much of the advice in this book suggests that the dog with
behavior problems be moved immediately into the house.  We further
suggest that owners wishing to enhance their relationship with
their pet, even in the absence of behavior troubles, include the
dog as much as possible in their regular social life.  The sections
on canine sleeping habits, digging, chewing, aggression, and other
problems make it clear that we feel dogs belong in the owner's 
'den' (house or apartment) as an integral part of a 'pack' 
(family group) under the supervision of a pack leader or
'Alpha-figure' (the dog's owner[s]).  Our own lifestyle with
our dogs illustrates this belief.
	"What about the dog that lives outside?  The first question we
ask is 'Why?'  When we ask clients who are experiencing behavior
problems this question, their answers can often be dogmatic and
curt:

	Because I WANT him outside, that's why.

	He likes it outside.

	That's where a dog belongs.

	He house-soils inside.

	He chews (or digs, jumps up, doesn't obey) if he's inside.

	I don't want hair all over the house.

	He bothers company and we have a lot of company.

	He needs the fresh air and exercise.

	We did it with our old dog and it worked.

"Occasionally there may be significant reasons for keeping a dog
outside on an exclusive basis.  There may be an allergy in the
family, or an elderly or handicapped person in residence.  As
any dog owner knows, certain sacrifices must be made to keep a
dog.  Hair on the furniture and floors is a reality of life with
a dog, as is an occasional accident.  It is a rare dog that
needs exercise or fresh air twenty-four hours a day.
	"If your dog must live outside, provide it with a large yard
and a good dog house.  The dog house should be wood and painted
a light color in the summer and a dark color in winter.  The
color of your dog house will affect its interior temperatures.
The floor of the dog house should be carpeted or otherwise
insulated.  Cedar shavings are good for warmth.  Outdoor dogs need
more fat in their diet when the temperature drops down into the
forties or lower.  The most convenient method is to add a 
tablespoon of vegetable oil to the daily diet.
	"But most often a dog lives outside for one of two reasons:
its owners prefer it that way and see no reason to change the
dog's life-style, or the dog has been tried indoors and was
too unruly.  If the second reason is the excuse, we hope this
book will guide you in coping with behavior problems so that
your dog can reenter your living quarters.  If you simply
prefer (or demand, as the case may be) that the dog live
outdoors, there is probably no changing your mind.
	"....  Remember, no guarantees can be made about changing
behavior that is related to SOCIAL ISOLATION, unless the dog
is no longer banished.  Owners who are absolutely intransigent
about letting the dog into the house, even on a limited basis, 
might do well to consider placing the dog elsewhere and 
investing in a domestic animal that adapts more easily to life
outdoors -- for instance, a horse, a cow, or a pig"

**************************************************************

Now you know where most of us are coming from.  Again, I apologize
if my email message was offensive.  I was trying to be constructive
and helpful.  But there was so little info in your original post,
I could only assume the worst.

Carol
riacmt@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu