HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anthony Bulloch)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Cookies and Companies and MLM
Date: 1 Oct 92 02:44:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Bill Glazier writes:

>It's funny.  The only people posting here saying good things about MLM products 
>are people who make money selling them.  No plain old customers with
>no financial stake in the system.
>
>Doesn't that tell you something?

It tells us that the only people who would have any interest ploughing
through all this stuff about MLMs are people involved in MLMs
(this is alt.business.multi-level, after all).  If you want to do
a simple consumer survey try posting a 'has anyone tried the
products of X?' in a group such as misc.consumers.

Anthony Bulloch

PS I could relay remarks made by my customers, and those of my
colleagues, and I would do it accurately, but objectively no
reader would have any way of knowing that I wasn't inventing,
outside the individuals who happen to know me.
From: abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anthony Bulloch)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Confused & Bad Experiences with Amway.
Followup-To: alt.business.multi-level
Date: 6 Oct 1992 02:55:36 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Oct05.161138.3906@bnr.ca> Marker_Man writes:
>      
>         Gee, you really ARE confused!!  		
>
>	 You're also full of shit PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD.	
>
>         Amway is no fraud, you dork, or they wouldn't have survived	
>33 years in business.  Refute THAT, asshole.

My! My!

Such clarity.

Is this really a representative of Amway talking?

Anthony Bulloch
abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu

Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: bglazier@buffalo.asd.sgi.com (Bill Glazier)
Subject: Re: Nuskin
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:38:36 GMT

All I remember about NuSkin is from an experience 4-5 years ago.  A NuSkin
convert tried to sell me some hair restoring shampoo.  The hysterical thing
about this prouuct was that, according to the instructions, you were supposed to shampoo 3-4 times a day and use about 1/4 bottle per shampoo.  These were large
size bottles, and ran about $13 each.  

Can you imagine using a bottle of shampoo a day?  If the stuff actually worked,
I bet in no time I'd look like my Golden Retriever....... 

Nuskin was, and probably still is, another Utah based ripoff/scam sponsored
by get-rich-quick artists.  They'll say anything to get your money.

Save your time, your money, and your friends for better causes....

bill glazier
silicon graphics
bglazier@asd.sgi.com
From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Complete Archive of alt.business.multi-level Available
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:30:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Hello,

As the creator of a.b.m-l, I took care to save all the postings made to this
newsgroup that arrived at my site (netcom).  As far as I know, netcom did
not miss much, so I feel comfortable in saying that I got nearly all of the
postings intended to be posted at my site (there may have been some posts
that had a restricted Distribution: - I don't know if there were any in this
category.)

The ASCII file is over 1 Mbyte in size.  The compressed (.Z) file is a
little less than 500K.

I would like to make available this file to all who want it.  However,
because it is so huge, I won't even attempt to e-mail it to interested
parties (please, no e-mail requests).  Thus, I am looking for an anonymous
ftp site where this file can be archived and made available to all (some of
these sites also support a mail-server so those who are not directly hooked
into the Internet can also obtain the file).

Please let me know if you would like to volunteer your site for this
worthwhile endeavour or if you have any lead(s) as to other sites.  At this
time, the netcom management will not make this file available in their
anonymous ftp directory.

Thanks.

Jon Noring

-- 
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : (510) 294-8153   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 862-1101   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If your annual income today is $50,000, you have the same buying power as
the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John
Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: Confused & Bad Experiences with Amway.
Followup-To: alt.business.multi-level
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 11:56:15 GMT

In article <1aqv78INN760@agate.berkeley.edu>, abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anthony Bulloch) writes:
> In article <1992Oct05.161138.3906@bnr.ca> Marker_Man writes:
>>      
>>         Gee, you really ARE confused!!  		
>>
>>	 You're also full of shit PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD.	
>>
>>         Amway is no fraud, you dork, or they wouldn't have survived	
>>33 years in business.  Refute THAT, asshole.
> 
> My! My!
> 
> Such clarity.
> 
> Is this really a representative of Amway talking?
> 
> Anthony Bulloch
> abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu

You know bloody well that this is not Amway talking.
It is a clear and sensible response to, well, an asshole.
Your own observations/discussions about NuSkin should make
it obvious you don't agree with the said asshole, so why
pick a fight with Amway? 

The flame count must be down.

|-------------------------------------|--------------------------------|
| If we had an index file, we could   | In fact, except for protecting |
| look it up in the index file under  | individual rights, no valid    |
| "Index File".                       | reason for government exists." |
|           -- Tegan in "Castrovalva" |      ... Dr. Frank Wallace     |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Bill Garland = bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca |Commercial : Send me your money.|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
From: reb@punch.EBay.Sun.COM (Bob Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: AMWAY is giving the hard sell
Date: 4 Oct 92 22:51:56
Organization: Systar Technologies, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: punch.ebay.sun.com
In-reply-to: choy@skorpio.usask.ca's message of 5 Oct 92 02:20:24 GMT

>>>>> choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.) writes:

choy> An AMWAY rep told me that if I opened a McDonald's, I'd get so
choy> and so percentage of the profits. However, if I sold products,
choy> I'd get 100% of the profits, and my contact would get 4%. It
choy> doesn't add up.  But profits can't be added, right?


How about-- if you opened a McDonald's, you'd keep all of the profits
but some of your expenses would be a royalty check to the Franchisor.
The check would be based on gross sales and it wouldn't matter if you
made a profit or not.

In Amway, you can become a "franchisor" and receive some of those
royalties. The Amway corporation pays those royalties to you based on
the gross sales of the downline direct distributor you sponsored
(happens to be 4% of the gross business volume).

Clearly, Amway "held" some money it could have given to the people you
sponsored so that you could have it, but then that's how the system
works. I prefer to "give up" 4% now so that in the future I can create
a bunch of 4% groups. Residual income is great!

bob

--
--Bob
Systar Technologies, Inc.		   Sun: robert.brown@EBay.Sun.COM
1712 Picasso Avenue, #B & #C            Office: reb@systar.com
Davis, California  95616		 Phone: (916) 753 - 2611
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: confused@cwis.unomaha.edu (stephen richard smith)
Subject: Re: Bad Experiences with Amway.
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 06:06:39 GMT



Amway is nothing more than a dressed up pyramid. Add it up people,
you would have every person in the world selling Amway within a month
if you actualy got as many people under you as they say you can
IT IS A FRAUD PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD. Any people, or con artist out there
want to challenge this? It is simple math.
1. You get ten people to sell, each one of them gets ten (We are already 
   at one hundred ) this is your first level
2. Each of the hundred gets ten of there own now we're at one thousand
3. Each of the thousand gets ten people now we're at ten thousand
Need I continue? if you follow their logic you would have the whole 
world on your down line in no time
If there is anyone out there who would like to argue with me on this
don't bother I don't have time. Go rip someone else of You won't get
Me to even give you the time of day.
And if you try and compare Amway to Mary-kay, come on major diff.
M-K stresses sales, not trying to gat all your friends and family in
your down line THAT IS WHY Amway IS NOT anything like M-K and I wish
you Amway people out there would stop comparing yourselves to a legit.
organization. To  those of you who have been (just about everyone I'll
bet) I sympatize with you.They almost got Me but Bruce Williams saved Me.

-- 
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: marvin@cs.umb.edu (Tsung-Feng Chen)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Bad Experiences with Amway.
Date: 26 Sep 92 18:21:16 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston, Dept of Math and CS

Being that I myself have had a bad experience with Amway.  I was wondering
if there were others out there who actually TRIED Amway and could tell
of what they liked or did'nt like about it.
(And please no stories from current distributors saying "You'll get out of
Amway what you put into it".)  
I would prefer to deal with specific examples of what people like/dislike
about "THE PLAN."...........
.
From: bglazier@buffalo.asd.sgi.com (Bill Glazier)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Cookies and Companies and MLM
Date: 1 Oct 92 00:32:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Sep30.171247.22882@serval.net.wsu.edu>, hbechtel@luke.eecs.wsu.edu (H. E. Bechtel) writes:
|> 
|> When I ordered the peanutbutter cookie, it tasted much better than the PHX
|> cookie (which surprised me) and also had the ingredient 'canola oil' in
|> it (which is supposed to make it last longer).  I recently ordered the 
|> chocchocchip cookie and WOW.... This tasted so good that even my friends
|> that I let try it wanted a box after they tasted it.  My sales have once  
|> again increased to where they should be.
|> 
|> (the cookie is a high-fiber no chloresterol no fat nutritious cookie that
|> can be great for weight control as well as a quick snack and retails for   
|> $1.50 or $0.90 wholesale in a box of 45 cookies that run $67.50 retail or
|> $40.50 wholesale)

Hold on here.  $1.50 PER COOKIE?  I can go buy a very fancy, large, homemade
cookie in the bakery department of my local high end grocery store for $.70.
This is in Palo Alto, a very expensive town.  I can get high fiber (oatmeal raisin bran).  No cholesterol, no fat - I find this hard to believe, but if
true probably tastes not so good.  Even if true, $1.50 is A RIPOFF!!!!!  

Oreo's, available in bags of 50+, go for $2.50 - that's $.05 or less a cookie.
Some of the pre-made high end cookies go for 10 for $2.50 - $.25 a cookie.

I guess this is necessary to support the commissions of all the various management layers who want to get rich.  This is a classic example of why MLM
has a poor reputation.

 
|> Well enough rambling along.  I felt I should let the net know about this
|> so I could tell my views on it.  I have had much success with Nutrition Express
|> and I plan to continue.  If anybody needs info on it, they can email me for
|> a 1-800 number to call for a packet of info.

It's funny.  The only people posting here saying good things about MLM products are people who make money selling them.  No plain old customers with
no financial stake in the system.

Doesn't that tell you something?
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: djk@saki.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Douglas Knights)
Subject: Goodbye.....and good luck!
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 12:57:49 GMT

To all those MLMers out there I want to wish you the best of luck.  I am
losing this net access today (10/2/92) (although I can always be reached at 
Compuserve at 76460.3324@Compuserve.com....if anyone knows how to go from 
compuserve to a node that has access to this group...please email me there) 
because I am leaving the J.O.B.  and moving onto bigger and better things.  
Most of the discussions have been informative, but then I have seen a lot of 
flames being cast about as well.  For those in MLM, keep up the good work
and try not to fight with others (even those in other MLMs) because I have
seen too much of this in corporate America....lets keep it there!  So long
and happy MLMing!

			Doug
From: reb@punch.EBay.Sun.COM (Bob Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Bad Experiences with Amway.
Date: 27 Sep 92 22:32:03
Organization: Systar Technologies, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: punch.ebay.sun.com
In-reply-to: marvin@cs.umb.edu's message of 26 Sep 92 18:21:16 GMT

>>>>> marvin@cs.umb.edu (Tsung-Feng Chen) writes:

marvin> Being that I myself have had a bad experience with Amway.  I
marvin> was wondering if there were others out there who actually
marvin> TRIED Amway and could tell of what they liked or did'nt like
marvin> about it.  (And please no stories from current distributors
marvin> saying "You'll get out of Amway what you put into it".)  I
marvin> would prefer to deal with specific examples of what people
marvin> like/dislike about "THE PLAN."...........  .


The first time:

I liked my sponsors, I hated having to sell so much product, I hated
spending more than I made, I hated the small product line. I hated
the NOS! I hated the secret dinner meeting invitation to get me to
see the program.


The last time:

I like the money, I like my sponsors, I like the personal growth.
I still hate NOS! but they sure are profitable! I love the prospecting
tapes that our organization uses, it makes prospecting and sponsoring
a lot more fun.


About the PLAN?! I've always liked the PLAN, it provides residual
income when you build it right. You get paid for what you do.
It is more effort than luck.  I used to think that only the lucky
make it, but having seen the business over the past few years and
seen who succeeds and who doesn't succeed, those who put in the
work succeed (which is very few people).


Bob Brown
--
--Bob
Systar Technologies, Inc.		   Sun: robert.brown@EBay.Sun.COM
1712 Picasso Avenue, #B & #C            Office: reb@systar.com
Davis, California  95616		 Phone: (916) 753 - 2611
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: reb@punch.EBay.Sun.COM (Bob Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Bad Experiences with Amway.
Date: 5 Oct 92 02:45:03 GMT
	<1992Oct3.060639.28979@news.unomaha.edu>
Organization: Systar Technologies, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: punch.ebay.sun.com
In-reply-to: confused@cwis.unomaha.edu's message of 3 Oct 92 06:06:39 GMT


>>>>> confused@cwis.unomaha.edu (stephen richard smith) writes:

confused> Amway is nothing more than a dressed up pyramid. Add it up
confused> people, you would have every person in the world selling
confused> Amway within a month if you actualy got as many people under
confused> you as they say you can.

And after 30+ years they've only got a million people!?  Guess they
just don't know how to run a pyramid right! :-)

confused> IT IS A FRAUD PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD.

Wow! MLM baiting at it's best.

Fraud?! What if you were the LAST guy on earth to get in.  What's the
worst that could happen to you, get to buy wholesale forever?!
(Besides, how would you feel being the last person to sign up!)

Define Fraud for me, where? how? what?

confused> Any people, or con artist out there want to challenge this?
confused> It is simple math. 

And if math were the only issue to look at here, there might be a
problem. But come on, Christianity's been around for 2000 years and
has a similar market approach ( you tell 2 people who tell 2 people)
and most of the world STILL isn't in.

confused> If there is anyone out there who would like to argue with me
confused> on this don't bother I don't have time.

Start a fight and don't even have the guts to finish it. Come on, why
bother stating anything at all if you're just going to make your case
and run. What a waste of time, especially on a Pro-MLM group.

confused> Go rip someone else of You won't get Me to even give you the
confused> time of day.

So why did you bother to write in the first place. Wanted to see
how much hate mail you could get?!

confused> And if you try and compare Amway to Mary-kay, come on major
confused> diff.  

My friend, me thinks you are mi-informed.

confused> M-K stresses sales, not trying to gat all your friends and
confused> family in your down line THAT IS WHY Amway IS NOT anything
confused> like M-K and I wish you Amway people out there would stop
confused> comparing yourselves to a legit.  organization.  

What, if you found a great way to earn a million bucks you wouldn't
share it with your friends? How selfish of you.

confused> To those of you who have been (just about everyone I'll bet)
confused> I sympatize with you. They almost got Me but Bruce Williams
confused> saved Me.

Well I'm happy you've been saved. Thanks for your enlightenment, but I
think I'll stay in my ignorance and continue to help people make
money.


bob



--
--Bob
Systar Technologies, Inc.		   Sun: robert.brown@EBay.Sun.COM
1712 Picasso Avenue, #B & #C            Office: reb@systar.com
Davis, California  95616		 Phone: (916) 753 - 2611
From: abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anthony Bulloch)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Nuskin
Followup-To: alt.business.multi-level
Date: 29 Sep 1992 09:44:30 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

"the nature of MLM is just that: it is too easy for less than ethical people
to make a quick killing.....I believe the vast majority of people have 
a very poor experience with MLM...the rewards at the top...slick....
a lot of human potential psychobabble....They take the money and on 
to the next program.  And they all seem to come from Utah....My memory 
is quite clear...I get angry at many companies....Most MLM companies 
care only about the owners....Nor do I expect to begin hosting 
'No Money Down Real Estate " Seminars, or begin a second career 
as a born again televangelist....I despise...."

From "I believe" to "I despise". A few prejudices showing along
the way here, Bill. There are MLM companies in every state of the
country, and I can think of several whose owners have more vision,
and more commitment to integrity and the promotion of human good
and happiness, than most non-MLM companies.  It's regrettable that
your family member had a bad experience, but Gary's right about
Nu Skin: superb products and top-notch business ethics, and generally
one of the best companies around.

Your sweeping condemnation of MLMs is grossly unfair. There may be
some mediocre or questionable concerns among them, but corporate
America has plenty of bums and rascals too. Nu Skin is currently 
developing a program which is probably going to save the lives 
and radically improve the health of hundreds of thousands of people 
over the next few years; and there's another MLM (sorry, based 
in Colorado not Utah) that's doing more for the environment, and is
more committed to that cause, than most other companies I know of.
We could do with more people like the owners of Nu Skin and Espial.

Anthony Bulloch
abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Guides and more
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:41:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.121020.1301@Princeton.EDU>, bathurst@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Bruce Bathurst) writes in part:
|> Your questions, however, are inappropriately intellectual in a group that
|> relies on experience and feeling.  
Hmm.  I must have missed the the sign on the door.  I didn't know that
this group relies on experience and feeling.  This is surely what
some folks are interested in, but others, including me, are relentlessly
"intellectual".  I think I'll stay.  (Also please note that I have
not been criticizing reports of experience, only some hypotheses about
what they mean.)

|> The confusion exists because of their
|> use of scientific vocabulary and extensive metaphysics.  (I guess one can
|> call it that.)
I agree that there is confusion and it is due to the use of scientific
vocabulary.  When folks use scientific vocabulary I tend to react
"intellectually".

|> I find it interesting that most of my friends (from many professions)
|> often have experiences that are classically termed psychic.  It is my
|> opinion that such people have a common aspect of personality.  (None,
|> however, wears a pyramid or quartz crystal.)
This is an interesting hypothesis.  Why do you think this?  It was my
impression that having psychic experiences is pretty universal--all
kinds of people have them.

|> Whether such experiences are physiological, neurological, religious, or
|> metaphysical seems irrelevant.  What matters, ultimately, is how they
|> affect an individual.
This is certainly one point of view, and a good one.   Nevertheless,
if folks are going to stake out positions on the various possible
interpretations of such experiences, then I will examine their
positions and question them.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body