HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yoshi@agora.rain.com (Katherine Stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Heraldry "Technology"
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:00:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.C0Dz1M.9xq
Organization: Open Communications Forum



As someone who has had a casual interest in Heraldry for years, but not much
time to do anything about it (until recently anyway) I've often wondered
if Heraldry has happened the same way much of our technology has occured.
It almost seems that Heraldry like many other "sciences" sort of popped up
at roughly the same time in many different places. I wish I had some sort of
"timeline" to show the occurance of Heraldry in different parts of the world.
It would be interesting to see how close different cultures and countries 
come to discovering or inventing all the different aspects of Heraldry. Makes
me wonder if there isn't something out there that I just haven't stumbled on
yet...Gee sounds like a good "excuse" to visit Powell Books again....

-- 
Starguard 		yoshi@agora.rain.com 
"I can't change my mind, I only have one."
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Reforming "false armorye"
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:23:30 GMT

Jennifer Geard writes:

[ A nice quotation about an heraldic visitation deleted -- schuldy ]

  The term "false arms" had a specific meaning:  "Armes that are called false 
  or falsefied, be either of colours alone, or of mettals alone" (John Ferne  
  _The Blazon of Gentrie_  London, 1586, p. 163.).  I'm inclined to believe 
  that this usage is intended, since the sense of "improperly assumed armory" 
  is covered by "armes devysed without auctoritie".

I don't normally have my heraldry books at work, but I do, and had just
looked at the entry under "false heraldry".  According to Franklyn's
_Shield_and_Crest_, in the glossary, he defined false heraldry as follows:

  False Heraldry: metal on metal, tincture on tincture. There is a widely
  entertained belief that the term refers to arms of assumption. This
  arises thrm the misreading of a work, _Blason_de_Couleurs_ by 'Sicily
  Herald' (Jean de Courtais - ob. 1435), who employs the term in relation
  to assumed arms, not because they are unofficial, but because
  home-made arms frequently err in the inclusion of 'false heraldry'.
  (page 458)

	schuldy (Tibor in the SCA)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1993 19:33:46 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Francois R. Velde writes:

> * Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sable crowned or, on its breast a
>    crescent trefoiled and a crosslet argent.

I picked up somewhere the notion that this crescent-thing was originally
intended as a representation of the eagle's wing bones, or something like
that.  I believe I have seen them blazoned in German as "klee-stengeln"
(very approximately recalled).  Can anyone confirm/verify/correct this?

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Date: 11 Jan 93 14:59:01 GMT
Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu

In article <1993Jan11.144908.3715@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au> 89b0016@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.232204.1671@nntp.hut.fi>, c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>...
>> I've heard that the white-blue-red colours are considered as the international
>> colours of Slavic peoples, and therefore displayed in their flags. Can anyone
>> deny or confirm this ?
>....
>
>Actually, red, white and blue aren't so much the colours of the Slavic peoples
>as the colours of the Pan-Slavic Movement, which was inititated around
>1848 and flourished during the latter half of the 19th century, when most 
> [...]
>but am not sure what the history of Bohemia's colours are. As I understand
>it, Bohemia (or "the Czech lands", for English-language-manglers) had a red
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't think "Czech lands" is equivalent to Bohemia: rather, it is equivalent
to Bohemia + Moravia + Austrian Silesia.

>and white flag just after WWI, and just before the Czechoslovak flag was
>devised for the federation by including a blue triangle for Slovakia. Anyone
>confirm the Bohemian colours ?

The colors of the Czech republic are indeed red and white, simply derived from
the arms of Bohemia (Gules, a lion rampant queue fourchee argent, crowned or),
the same way the Polish flag is derived from the Polish arms. Slovakia's
arms have red, white and blue (Gules, on a mount in base azure a patriarchal
cross argent): but these arns may well have been invented in the late 19th
century and the colors therefore chosen to reflect the "Slavic colors"
(Slovakia was never independent). Since red and white were already in the
Czech flag, the addition of blue was sufficient to represent Slovakia. Note
that until 1960 the seal of the (Communist) CSSR showed the Bohemian lion
with the Slovak arms on its shoulders.

-- 

	Francois Velde
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley)
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 18:21:34 GMT
Organization: Evolving Systems, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

First of all, Francois, thank you for your informative posts.  Could you
or someone answer three quick questions?  Thanks!

velde@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois R. Velde) writes:
: * Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sable crowned or, on its breast a crescent 
: 	trefoiled and a crosslet argent.

1.  How do you depict a crown or against a field or?  Is it outlined sable?

2.  What is a crescent "trefoiled"?

3.  Is this "crosslet" the same as a "cross crosslet" in English; that is,
    a cross each of whose four arms has a short cross-piece?
-- 
Fr. John Woolley (jww@evolving.com); vastly enthusiastic about Augustine,
Austen, babies, Bach, backgammon, baseball, beer, the Bible, Botticelli, Burke,
Chesterton, Dante, Dixieland, hardboiled, Hitchcock, Dr Johnson, Latin, Mozart,
Shakespeare/de Vere, St Teresa, Tolkien, Trollope, Fats Waller, and Washington
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois R. Velde)
Subject: Czech and Slovak arms
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:29:36 GMT

In the spirit of previous posts on the arms of new countries,  here is
what I found on the most recent countries in Europe, namely the 
Czech Republic and Slovakia.  

Two comments in passing: with the split between Slovakia and the Czech lands,
the old eastern boundary of the Holy Roman Empire appears on the map
once again, almost complete: it separates Slovenia from Croatia, Austria
from Hungary and now Moravia from Slovakia.  Also, it is a pleasure to see
Communist heraldry disappear (no more hammers and sickles, sheafs and 
smokestacks) and old arms reappear in its stead.

The Czech Republic is composed of Bohemia, Moravia and bits of Silesia. 
Historically, Silesia was conquered by Bohemian kings in the 14th century,
but most of it was lost to Prussia after the War of Austrian Succession
in 1748.  The 2000 square miles left to the Habsburgs (who ruled Bohemia
after 1526) were then known as "Austrian Silesia", with a capital in 
Opava (Troppau in German).  Anyway, this explains why the arms of the 
Czech Republic, as described in the New York Times of Jan. 3, are:
quarterly: 1 and 4, Bohemia, 2, Moravia, 3 Silesia. The arms are as follows:
* Bohemia: gules, a lion rampant, queue fourchee argent, crowned or.
* Moravia: azure, an eagle displayed chequy gules and argent, crowned or.
* Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sable crowned or, on its breast a crescent 
	trefoiled and a crosslet argent.
The lion with queue fourchee of Bohemia is particularly famous. It was kept
on the seal of the CSSR in Communist times, and the colors argent and gules
form the flag of the Czech Republic (identical to pre-1991 Poland, but now
Poland has its arms: gules an eagle displayed argent crowned or, on the
white stripe of the flag). It dates to 1158, and can be seen on the tomb
of Ottokar I, first hereditary king of Bohemia, died 1230 (illustration in
Neubecker).

Slovakia was a part of Hungary since the 12th century, and remained a forgotten
province of the Hungarian kingdom until 1918. It was never an independent
political entity. Its arms, according to the Brockhaus encyclopedia, were 
used from 1939 to 1960. They are:
* Slovakia: gules, on a mount in base azure a patriarchal cross argent.
This resembles very closely part of the arms of Hungary (in which the 
mount is vert, and there is a crown or around the base of the cross). 
A patriarchal cross has two traverses, the upper one shorter. The mount is
represented with three copeaux, or domes, corresponding to the three main
mountains of Slovakia: Fatra, Tatra and Matra (I'm not kidding).


Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Keywords: white blue red 
Reply-To: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:42:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.232204.1671@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:

[quoting me]

>>The flag of Slovaktheir accustomed white-blue-red, with the state arms
>>in the middle. Therefore it is impossible to be confused with Slovenia, who
>>have white-blue-red with the state arms in upper hoist corner, or with
>>Russia, who have plain white-blue-red

>Or with Croatia, who has the arms of Kolyman (chequy Gules and Argent) in
>the middle of their white-blue-red flag...

Isn't the Croatian flag red-white-blue, with the arms to differentiate from
the Netherlands? (Or Luxemburg, who use a lighter shade of blue)

>I've heard that the white-blue-red colours are considered as the international
>colours of Slavic peoples, and therefore displayed in their flags. Can anyone
>deny or confirm this ?

I've heard the same, although it might also be a common delusion hereabouts:-)

tsahib.



-- 
***  Tero.J.Heikkinen@hut.fi  ***********  Disclaimer wanted: Apply within  ***
"Well, I'm an accountant, and consequently too boring to be of interest."

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: katherim@fraser.sfu.ca (Katherine Merle Mason)
Subject: Re: What is this group for?
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 20:56:38 GMT

schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:

>Katherine Merle Mason writes:
>  This is an interesting question.  In my study of geneaology, I have found
>  that everyone of European descent seems to be able to claim descent from
>  a minor peer or at least a member of the gentry.  This does not necessarily
>  mean that these people are nobles, but it does say something about the 
>  kind of people who are generally attracted to heraldry and geneaology.

>Or that the people you have contact with have self-selected that way.
>Those, like myself, who found an interest in heraldry through the SCA,
>are interested in heraldry and onomastics (and to a very much lesser
>extent, geneaology) for very different reasons.

This is quite possibly true, however, I would consider that I have 
contact with a great many people who are genealogically inclined.  I 
am a member of the British Columbia genealogical society and I also
work with the archives of the New Westminster Museum, which often 
recieves visitors questing for genealogical information.  Even some
of my own relatives, I must admit, have fallen for this.  Certainly
there are people who are involved in geneaology for other reasons,
but in my experience a large number of them are on a noble-ancestor
quest.
 
>Another things to consider, is that for those folks whose European
>Ancestry is of non-noble or differing classes, there is little
>geneaology to work with.  For example, people of German Jewish
>descent did not take consistent surnames until the early 1800s when
>required to by law.  That makes geneaology difficult.

This is of course often the case.  There is usually, however, some form 
of data.  Gravestones, birth records, church records and if you are
lucky, census records.  It is however, much easier if you are related
to some famous personna because chances are some genealogical work has
already been done.

[interesting story deleted for brevity]
It is always dissapointing when geneaological research leads to dead
ends.  I know people who have traced a line of their ancestry back
to the eight century or so.  As anyone involved in geneaology knows,
that is quite a feat.  Personally, I have only traced to early 19th,
and that only with the help of my great grandmother.  

Katherine Merle Mason
Ne Oublie....
>	schuldy/Mark Schuldenfrei
>--
>Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
>[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: boyko@skyfox
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: facsimiles of early rolls of arms
Date: 11 JAN 93 04:14:40 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
NNTP-Posting-Host: sask.usask.ca

sorry, this machine does not "do" quoting, at least not that I
have been able to figure out.
     It has been asked, by someone in new zealand if I remember
correctly, where facsimiles of early rolls of arms may be found.
I doubt that the questioner is the only one with such an interest.
That is why I am posting this publicly
     Do you (plural you) live in an university town or city? If
so, there are two publications that you need to know: The Short
Title Catalogue and The Wing Collection. Both are catalogues of
books printed in England. STC covers the years from 1475 to 1600.
Wing covers the years from 1600 to 1660. i think I have the dates
right. Any academic library in any major university in the english
speaking world is likely to have these two catalogues. There is an
excellent index to the Wing collection, and a so-so one to STC.
     Many of the books, but possibly not all, have been placed on
microfilm. Looking at microfilm is not my favorite hobby, but,
it is the only way I will be able to view these books at all.
Richard.
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: A favor....
Date: 12 Jan 1993 09:32:28 -0500
Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu

In article <1993Jan12.120114.13929@nobeltech.se> leeu@nobeltech.se (Leif Euren) writes:
>In article <1is3udINNd7l@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:
>>				 Chape' is a partition consisting of two
>>lines, starting both from the same point in the middle of the top of
>>the shield, and going down sideways, one to the left and the other to the
>>right.
>
>Excuse me, but I don't really grasp this partition.  If it is what I
>think, than I've seen it blazoned "per chevron enhanced", i.e. a
>per-chevron partition with the apex at the top edge of the shield. Am
>I right or wrong?  Please enlighten me!

It sounds like you are describing the same thing as I was. The terms I 
described (chape, chausse, vetu, etc) come from the vocabulary of French
heraldry, and were also used (from what Andrea Habura says) in German
blazons. That the English had another way of blazoning this partition isn't
surprising (conversely, I don't recall any obvious equivalent to "per
chevron" in French). I understand from Woodward that this partition was 
more common on the Continent, esp. in Germany, where geometric designs 
were favored.
-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:49:18 GMT

In article <n292!=d@rpi.edu> habura@vccnw13.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>Fr. John asks about the arms of Silesia.
>
>The crown: I imagine it is outlined. (It should also slightly change the 
>outline of the eagle's head, which would help draw attention to it. I'm sure
>this isn't a unique example; crowns on beasts frequently break tincture 
>against the field.)

I had a couple of examples in my post on byzantine heraldry (Lascaris and
Cantacuzene both have a field or and an eagle crowned or).

>The crescent: Dollars to doughnuts the crescent merely has trefoils issuing 
>from the two horns. This would make it a hybrid form between a crescent
>and klee-stengeln, which is pretty easy to believe.

That is what I meant; sorry for the confusion.

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:34:32 GMT


A complement on Kleestengeln from Woodward's Treatise on Heraldry, p.344:

"The Klee-Stengeln which appear on each of the wings of the eagles displayed
of Prussia, Brandenburg,, etc., in the form of a golden trefoil with a long
curved stalk reaching to the breast, appear to be only the development of 
some simple lines which are found in early examples of the 13th century to
indicate the anatomical construction of the eagle's wings (see Hildenbrand's
Heraldicus Musterbuch, plate xxviii, fig.9)."

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:22:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.204901.3595@nntp.hut.fi> tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen) writes:

>The flag of Slovaktheir accustomed white-blue-red, with the state arms
>in the middle. Therefore it is impossible to be confused with Slovenia, who
>have white-blue-red with the state arms in upper hoist corner, or with
>Russia, who have plain white-blue-red

Or with Croatia, who has the arms of Kolyman (chequy Gules and Argent) in
the middle of their white-blue-red flag...

I've heard that the white-blue-red colours are considered as the international
colours of Slavic peoples, and therefore displayed in their flags. Can anyone
deny or confirm this ?



--++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND              ++ Edward III. All you need is an  ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon.     ++
From: boyko@skyfox
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: RE: A favor....
Date: 11 JAN 93 20:08:23 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
NNTP-Posting-Host: sask.usask.ca

I have a small question about your descriptions: how would "tranche
failli en taillant et retranche" differ from a fess or bar
dancettee?
    I am having a bit of trouble picturing that french blazon,
even after your description. probably my fault.
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: dhartge@mitre.org (Duane Hartge)
Subject: Re: The Self Coached Runner
Reply-To: dhartge@mitre.org
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:14:29 GMT

In article <1ihhg5INN71d@meaddata.meaddata.com> chaz@meaddata.com (Chuck
Sedlacko) writes:
>  Recently, I've been looking over a book entitled "The Self-Coached Runner"
>by Allan Lawrence and Mark Scheid. The book has a format where you look up
>a section with a given distance and your goal time and it outlines a running 
>schedule for that race and your level.  I don't have any prior race 
>experience, and I had a question concerning some of the advice in the book.
>
> For example, to run a 45-minute 10K, the book states 
>
> "You are ready to train for a 45-minute 10K if you can run:
>
>    220 yards in 38 seconds
>    440 yards in 82 seconds
>    1 mile in 6 minutes 20 seconds
>
> To run 10K in 45 minutes you need to average 7:16 per mile."
>
> I don't understand what the paartial times have to do with running the 10K.
>If I could run at a 7:16 pace, why do I need to meet these other criteria?
>Other "prerequisites" are given for other levels and for all distances.
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>-- 
>|Chuck Sedlacko     |                           |           (513) 865-1781|
>|Mead Data Central  |  "I gave her the ring,    | Fabrication Applications|
>|P.O. Box 933       |   She gave me the finger" |        chaz@meaddata.com|
>|Dayton, Ohio 45401 |                           |    ..uunet!meaddata!chaz|
>
Don't put too much stock in the "required" times in this book.  I've always
found them to be much to conservative (i.e. you can run much better 5 and 10K
races than the book says based upon the shorter interval times).  For example,
I was under 43 minutes (10K) well before I could run a 6:15 mile.  I also know
several people who easily did my training pace at the time, who couldn't get
under 48 minutes.  The real problem is mental (at least at those kind of
times).

Newsgroups: rec.running
From: kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner)
Subject: Re: Orthotics question
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 16:13:16 GMT

I've been wearing orthotics in my running shoes (and all other shoes) for
several years, and this is my solution:  I cut the factory insert so that
the pedestals (at one front corner and the heel of each orthotic) rest on
the bottom of the shoe.  This has the advantage of lowering the orthotic
(so my foot will still fit), and preventing the orthotic from moving
around in the shoe.
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: jcs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (john.c.schwebel)
Subject: Re: Getting Old
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 03:55:14 GMT
Summary: One Sample Point - 10 year theory

In article <1993Jan8.010815.4066@cs.ucla.edu> page@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Thomas Page) writes:
>Another piece of data. It is claimed that one turns in ones best performances
>about 10 years after starting serious running,regardless of what age you start.
>That means, if you sum the curves of increasing ability due to training, and
>decreasing ability due to age, the resulting curve starts to turn downward
>about 10 years after you start, whether you start training at 16 or 60.

I reacted to this statement with a lot of skepticism.
Then I thought about my case and discovered I'm one sample
point which matches the 10 year theory.

Started running with no previous running experience: 1966 - Age 24
Most of my PRs, including mile and marathon were in: 1976 - Age 34
Still running today but never have matched the 1976 times.
Newsgroups: rec.running