From: scotty@flash.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Scott Griffin)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech
Subject: Travel trailer towing with Aerostar
Keywords: towing capacity not GVWR
Date: 29 Aug 92 01:26:55 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: usa


I didn't get many responses for my request about the travel trailer towing 
so I will send out the request again.  These are the responses that I have 
Received so far.  

Thanks to all who responded.

Scott Griffin


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original request


Hi, 

I have a question about towing a travel trailer with my Aerostar.  I am
thinking about buying a 18' travel trailer.  It weighs 2900 - 3200 lbs
"dry weight".  I Tallied up all my cargo for the trailer like propane,
batteries, dishes clothes, groceries, holding tank estimate, hitch equipment, 
options like air conditioning, jacks, awning etc.  And all my cargo for the 
van like fuel, passengers and misc cargo.  My final figures show me about
500 - 1000 lbs above the Aerostar towing capacity of 4800 lbs.      

I plan to be using the trailer about 6 times per year for weekend trips less
than 300 miles.  Then once per year we will do a two week trip of about 
3000 miles.  

By the way, the Aerostar is a 1990 with 15K miles on it, 4wd option,
4.0L optional motor and trans, tow package. 

What is the consensus? Am I going to rip the guts out of this beast?  Or 
is 500 to 1000 lbs over the towing cap. no sweat?  If anyone has experience
using a Chevy S10, Astro or Ford Ranger, Aerostar for this type of duty, I 
would like to hear your stories.

Please reply to me and I will summarize. 


Thanks to all,

Scott Griffin              Scotty@atc.olivetti.com



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Response 1


From nash@ucselx.sdsu.edu Tue Aug 25 08:57:16 1992
From: nash@ucselx.sdsu.edu (Ron Nash)

In article <55857@olivea.atc.olivetti.com> you write:

Scott,
	If your trips do not include any big grades (8% or more) I think
you will be OK as long as you take your time.  The weakest part of you
setup will be the van's brakes.  It is vital that your trailer brakes
are working and the brake controller adjusted properly.  I would not
recommend towing this trailer with surge brakes.  You will need to
brake the trailer independently of the van to stop swaying, and possibly 
to stop if the van's brakes overheat.

If you do not already have an "weight distributing" type of hitch (the
hitch has L shaped bars that are attached to the trailer frame with
chains), get them installed.  It will level out the van and give you
much better control.  The tires on the van should be rated A for heat
and have a load capacity of 1700 pounds or more.

Some things you may already know:  
o You can eliminate almost all trailer swaying when a semi passes by
  lightly using the trailer brakes (the hand control on the brake
  controller) while continuing to maintain your speed with the van.
  This "stretches" out your rig as if you were climbing a hill and really
  helps when the trailer starts rocking.  

o Go down grades in the same gear as you climb them.  If you have an
  automatic - don't let it hunt gears!!  If it will not say in drive, put
  it in 2 and slow down 5 mph until you crest the hill.  An auto when
  towing gets tremendous wear when it hunts back and forth and can burn
  out in a very short time.  

o When pulling over to let traffic by, slow down almost to a stop on the
  pavement before pulling onto the shoulder.

o Don't bleed off any air from the tires when they are hot!  It is normal
  for tire pressure to go up 10 or 15 pounds from the heat when towing.

o Plan on taking twice as long to stop as you normally would without the
  trailer.

o Pay attention to the posted speeds for curves.

Good Luck!

-- 
             ,--, | Ron Nash	 San Diego State University
       _ ___/ /\| | 		 nash@sdsu.edu
   ,;`( )__, )  ~ |  
  //  //   '--;   | Gin-N-Tonic  Learning to be an endurance horse
  '   \     |     | Luv on Fire  trusty trail horse


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Response 2


From bwa21@cas.org Tue Aug 25 04:39:03 1992
From malits@hoop.sw.stratus.com Tue Aug 25 08:24:20 1992
Return-Path: <malits@hoop.sw.stratus.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 11:24:13 EDT
From: malits@hoop.sw.stratus.com (George Malits)


If your truck has a manual tranny, the weak link is the clutch.  This amount of
wieght WILL hurt the clutch.  If it's automagic then the answer gets a bit
fuzzier but I'd certainly still focus on the tranny as the potential weak link. 
BTW: don't forget to factor in the wieght of the people riding in the truck when
you do your calculations.  You could end up with a truly staggering total gross
wieght for that little engine to deal with.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Response 3




From bwa21@cas.org Tue Aug 25 04:39:03 1992
Return-Path: <bwa21@cas.org>
From: bwa21@cas.org (Bruce Andersson)
Message-Id: <9208250738.AA15971@cas.org>

I pull my Coleman pop-up camper with my Areostar without problems.  This is
not as heavy as the trailer you are talking about but still weighs in at
around 2,000 lbs or so.  I have the 3.0 L engine, it runs fine - maintains
the same temp as w/o the trailer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Response 4


From @bay.csri.toronto.edu:mart@csri.toronto.edu Wed Aug 26 16:29:47 1992
Subject: Re:  Travel Trailer gear tallies.
Cc: mart@csri.toronto.edu
Message-Id: <92Aug26.192935edt.4832@bay.csri.toronto.edu>
Date: 	Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:29:28 -0400
Status: R

> These are my tallies for Aerostar:
> 
>                               Hitch                     60
>                               Fuel 25 USGal @ 7lbs     175
>                               Me and my wife           300
>                               Passengers               200
>                               Dog                       60
>                               Other Gear               300
>                               ------------------------------
>                                                       1095
>                       for the Trailer:
> 
>                                Propane 7 * 2 * 7lbs      98
>                                Batteries  2 * 40         80
>  I could eliminate             Holding tank estimate 
>  this.                         50 gal * 7               350  
>                              * Roof air                 100
>                              * Awning                   250
>                                Dishes, gear etc.        400
>                                Grocerys                 100
>                                ------------------------------ 
>                                                        1378
> * These may be overestimated.

Hmmm.  Nothing too wierd in the list.  I think you can probably shave
100 pounds because you've overestimated the density of propane and
gasoline.  *I* could also cut out 45 from the "Dog" 'cuz my Shih-Tzu
is pretty small.  I wonder a bit about the 700 pounds total of misc.
gear, but I don't you'd cut it down by more than 200 pounds.

Being generous, I'll cut off 100 from fuel, 200 from gear and 100 from
the awning ('cuz 250 seems mighty high for a couple of aluminum poles
and a big hunk of fabric...).  You can also chop off 350 pounds for
water, if you don't carry your own with you from home (except perhaps
a jug or two of drinking water) and watch the level in your holding
tank.

> So the totals are:
>                                                      
>                                 Total Capacity         4800
>                                 Aerostar cargo        <1095>
>                                 Trailer cargo         <1378>
>                                -------------------------------
>                                 Weight available       2327  

Adding in 400 for my thoughts about overestimating things, and 350
for not carrying water around and you get back up to 3100 pounds. :-)

> Real weight of trailer is 3000 to 3400 lbs.  What do you think?  

I think it seems fine.  *I'd* certainly do it!  Anyway, I went back to
my stack of brochures to see what I could determine about things like
the weight of the driver and fuel in the tow vehicle.  What I found
was that the numbers for GVWR and GCWR appear to be pretty consistent.

Recall my earlier comments that I had little info about the Aerostar,
but the Explorer (and Blazer) have quite a bit of info.  None of the
manufacturers brochures lists curb weights for the vehicles, but Car
and Driver happened to test 4x4 minivans in March 92 and SUVs in May
92.  Car and Driver list the weight of a std length Aerostar XL Plus
4x4 as 4218lbs, and a 4 door Eddie Bauer Explorer 4x4 as 4292lbs.

The Explorer brochure lists a max GCWR of 9500lbs and max trailer 
weight of 5100lbs for the same model.  Since the Eddie Bauer model
is as heavy as possible, and
	5100 (trailer) + 4300 (vehicle) = 9400 (combined),
it looks like Ford is being honest/conservative in their rating.  It
also suggests that your Aerostar should be OK, too, since it isn't
any heavier than the Explorer and is using the same drivetrain...
If in doubt, I'd look around for a good RV dealer who has the equipment
to set up tow vehicles with electric brake controllers, hitches, etc.,
and tell them about it.  My guess is that the only thing you could
possibly have to think about would be extra cooling capacity, since
that seems to have been a weak spot in the early Aerostars that was
corrected in later models.

Hope this helps!

Mart.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response 5


Dear Mart,

Thanks for the reply. I have included a file, which I wrote for someone 
about a year ago, regarding my impressions of the Aerostar. 

If you have any more specific questions about the Aerostar feel free to
ask.  I have had no other replies so far but I will post responses.

Thanks,

Scott

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From @bay.csri.toronto.edu:mart@csri.toronto.edu Mon Aug 24 19:20:26 1992
From: Mart Molle <mart@csri.toronto.edu>

In rec.autos you write:

>I have a question about towing a travel trailer with my Aerostar.  I am
>thinking about buying a 18' travel trailer.  It weighs 2900 - 3200 lbs
>"dry weight".  I Tallied up all my cargo for the trailer like propane,
>batteries, dishes clothes, groceries, holding tank estimate, hitch equipment, 
>options like air conditioning, jacks, awning etc.  And all my cargo for the 
>van like fuel, passengers and misc cargo.  My final figures show me about
>500 - 1000 lbs above the Aerostar GVWR of 4800 lbs.      
                                   ^^^^
Be careful not to confuse the Gross *Vehicle* Weight Rating for the van
(which includes the people, cargo, and tongue weight, but *not* the axle
weight of the [loaded] trailer) with the GCWR (== Gross Combined Weight
Rating) for the Van/trailer combination.  In Canada, at least, the Aerostar
    True enough Mart.
brochure was pretty sketchy about these things.  We found the Explorer
brochure and the Chevy Blazer brochure much clearer on how to calculate
the maximum trailer weight.   (We, too, have been thinking about buying
a travel trailer of the weight you describe, which would necessitate buying
a tow vehicle to match 'cuz the 2000lb limit on my Sable wagon is hopelessly
inadequate...)
   I agree about the Sable.  Also The Sable is a unibody construction.  To do
   real towing you need a car built on a frame or a truck built on a frame.  

Anyway, I believe the 4800 lb tow weight for an Aerostar with 4.0L engine
and 4spd/auto corresponds to a gross combined vehicle weight of almost 9000 lb
from which they subtract the nominal weight of an empty van carring two
normal passengers and a minimal amount of luggage.  Extra passengers and
cargo in the van would be subtracted from the available 4800 lb of excess
weight.  There is probably also a separate limit for the max allowable tongue
weight, and a limit to the frontal area of the trailer, assuming it's near
the maximum allowable weight.
   This is where I came up with the 4800 lbs.

You don't really have almost 3000 lb of extra people (beyond the first two)
and miscellaneous *gear* -- beyond the "dry weight" of the Aerostar and
   Yes I have the tallies at home I will type them and mail them to you.  
   However  on one hand, I think the tow rating may be underrated to protect
   Ford, and It may be OK to exceed them somewhat.  However on the otherhand,
   the aerodynamic profile of a travel trailer stinks so the extra air
   resitance is probably significant.  This would add to the effective
   "weight" of the trailer.
trailer -- do you???  If so, then I'm going to give up entirely on this
RV'ing idea.  I was hoping to squeak by with a more car-like tow vehicle
(like a Villager, with a 3500 lb tow rating) instead of a Cummins Turbo-
Diesel powered Dodge Ram 350.  :-)
   I would be sceptical of doing any travel trailer towing with a villager.
   I have read some articles in the automobile section of our paper about
   this vehicle. 
   Does this thing have a frame?  And does it have front wheel drive? 
   You need to have a frame and you need rear wheel drive for towing anywhere
   above 2000lbs.
>I plan to be using the trailer about 6 times per year for weekend trips less
>than 300 miles.  Then once per year we will do a two week trip of about 
>3000 miles.  

Sounds almost exactly like our plans.  Except we've done our travelling
without a trailer so far.

>By the way, the Aerostar is a 1990 with 15K miles on it, 4wd option,
>4.0L optional motor and trans, tow package. 

When you get a chance, please send me your driving impressions of the 
Aerostar.  How does it compare to a reasonable sedan (a Taurus, say),
from the point of view of the driver and passengers?  What sort of
fuel consumption do you get on the highway, with and without the trailer?
(BTW, we normally get around 28-31 miles/USgal on the highway.  A few
years ago, we towed a small-but-very-heavy U-Haul trailer from Los Angeles
to Toronto with it, and our milage dropped by about 4-5mpg, with engine
cooling being the only noticable effect on the car's performance.)



   Letter about Aerostar here:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi,

I have a 90' std length Aerostar.  The options I have is 
1. Elect. 4 wd, this includes 4.0 l engine and matching trans.
2  XL trim package.
3. Paint upgrade, 2 tone Metal Flake gold paint.
4. Dual Air.
5. Tow package.

Gas mileage is 16 city and 25 highway.  There were about 6 manufacturing
defects that were covered by warranty.  They were all minor but I       
expected more from Ford.  The car broke down once because of broken 4wd
system, covered by warranty.  The valve cover gaskets started leaking
at 10.5K, it spent a week in the shop because the grease monkey broke
the valve cover trying to remove it, this was covered by warranty.  I 
like the van alot because its big and comfortable.  Long trips are a
breeze with cruise control.  The 4wd works well for pulling my boat out
of the water.  The tow package is nice, and there is enough room for 
all my stuff, my dog, my kid. And I still have tow rating left over when
I'm fully packed, gassed and hitched up.  The rear suspension is straight
axle so ride can be more rough than some of the vans with 4w independent.
But you mostly feel the rough ride in the back seat when the van is lightly
loaded.  Front seat ride is nice.  Handling is so-so, basicly big truck 
handling.  If you are not towing I would recommend the Dodge, but the 
Aerostar as a close second.  I wouldn't recommend the Dodge as a tow car. 

The clincher for me was the price,  I got it in late 90' for 15,225.  I
figure that the Aerostar is alot of car for that price.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

Scott Griffin     scotty@atc.olivetti.com 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

>What is the consensus? Am I going to rip the guts out of this beast?  Or 
>is 500 to 1000 lbs over the GVWR rating no sweat?  If anyone has experience
>using a Chevy S10, Astro or Ford Ranger, Aerostar for this type of duty, I 
>would like to hear your stories.

Again, I doubt that you're actually overloading your Aerostar.   The dealer
from whom we expect to buy the trailer (if we go through with the idea!)
tows a 3700 lb "dry weight" trailer with an Explorer with the same basic
chassis and drive train you have.  
   It's funny how the salesmen I meet always have the same model of whatever
   I am looking at and they always love it.  :-)  Seriously though, I think
   that the dealer has a biased interest in making you comfortable with 
   the buying decision. 

Let me suggest, however, that the 4WD components are probably the most
fragile part of your vehicle.  My brother has a 91 S10 Blazer 4x4 with
the HO 4.3L engine and trailering package (max trailer weight ~6000 lb).
He just drives it to work mostly, but a couple of times a year he pulls
a 17 foot fiberglass boat (with 140HP Mercruiser I/O) out of the water
   I Tow a 16' outboard ski boat that weighs about 2000lbs total boat,
   motor and trailer.  The Aerostar has no problem with this duty. 
on a steep dirt launching ramp.  One time of those times, he managed
to twist something in one of his front driveshafts, which caused a
vibration at highway speeds until the damaged part was replaced.

>Thanks to all,

You're welcome!

>Scott Griffin              scotty@atc.olivetti.com

Mart L. Molle
Computer Systems Research Institute
University of Toronto
Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4
(416)978-4928
Newsgroups: rec.autos