HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 01:15:43 -0500
From:         Giulio Silano <gsilano@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Oath of fealty
              20, 92 10:25 pm

>
>  Bryan made an excellent point in this debate:
> > [stuff deleted] nor do we pledge fealty to the Pope.  Nor do the bishops,
 priests,
> > cardinals, even the Jesuits.  I would dare say that the Church that was
> > founded by Jesus Christ is a higher authority than whatever corrupt,
> > venal method of government we have today.  If push came to shove, I
> > would trust my eternal happiness to the Church rather than our
> > government.
  While I sympathize with Bryan's sentiments, I must say that it seems
  to me incorrect to suggest that the bishops and others do not take
  an oath of fealty to the Pope or, at least, to the Apostolic See.
  Canon 380 states: `Before he takes canonical possession of his
  office, the person promoted is to make a profession of faith and
  take an oath of fidelity to the Apostolic See in accord with a
  formula approved by the same Apostolic See.'  The canon makes it
  clear that the soundness of faith has priority, as a requirement for
  the bishop's office, over fidelity to the Apostolic See;
  nevertheless, *both* are required before a bishop-elect can take up
  his office.  This applies as stringently to American bishops as to
  bishops anywhere else.  Fidelity and fealty mean the same thing, so
  it cannot be said that bishops do not pledge fealty to the Pope.
  Cardinals, if only because they are bishops, do the same.  As for
  Jesuits, we all remember that the best among them used to have the
  *privilege* of making a fourth vow to obey the Pope without any will
  of their own.  I do not know whether they preserve this wonderful
  practice.  In any case, by canon 590.2, *all* religious `are also
  bound to obey the Supreme Pontiff as their highest superior by
  reason of the sacred bond of obedience.'  Some have suggested a
  distinction between obedience and fealty; I cannot imagine what the
  meaning of the distinction is.  If anything, however, the
  distinction goes the other way; that is to say, this type of
  obedience is more stringent than even feudal fealty.  In feudal
  fealty, there was the possibility of appealing to one's peers
  against the order of the superior; in religious obedience owed to
  the Pope, there is no such possibility of appeal.

  What mystifies me is the desire to minimize the importance and
  extent of the obedience which members of the clergy owe to their
  hierarchical superiors.  The willingness to obey wholeheartedly the
  commands of such superiors used to be seen as a badge of merit and
  the practice of obedience in self-emptying was thought to be the
  highest form of the Imitation of Christ who empties Himself on the
  Cross (see the wonderful words to this effect in St. Benedict's
  prologue to his Rule, which is the grand-daddy of all Western forms
  of religious life).  Have some more compelling values been discovered that
  replace these?


  A blessed Christmas.

  Giulio Silano.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 10:24:42 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Contraception

On Dec 10,  9:13am, noao!URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM wrote:
} Subject: Re: Authority, Diversity and Development
} John O. writes:
} >Considering the average number of times the average married Catholic couple
} >makes sexual love for the sole purpose of promoting the unitive aspect,
} >I would think there would be less divorce in the Catholic Church.
}
} This is a good point, John, do you think the Catholic Church is contributing
} to the divorce rate by only endorsing NFP as a means of contraception? It
} would seem to me (based on my own experience) that this unitive aspect of
} sexual love would be needed at more than just those times dictated by the
} NFP "charts". -J.J.
}-- End of excerpt from noao!URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM

Actually, I would bet that the divorce rate among Catholics who practice
NFP is lower than for those using artificial contraception.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 01:19:06 EST
From: <SANDORM@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: When will the new RC catechism be released in English?
 <1992Dec17.211531.6830@erenj.com> <1992Dec17.224533.14136@u.washington.edu>
 <1992Dec18.003108.9469@erenj.com>

I am not a subscriber to this list but read it through Netnews.  I also do not
know how to repeat (echo?) passages from the posting to which I am replying,
but wish to respond to Bryan Boyle's complaint that English translators have
mistranslated the Confiteor. To my knowledge, the new Latin Mass (Novus Ordo)
after Vat. II has a revised version of the Confiteor that goes "Confiteor
deo omnipotenti, et vobis fratres, quia peccavi nimis,..." etc. What one
thinks of this new version (omission of archangels, etc.) is a different
question, but the English translators were correctly rendering the Latin
of this revised text, and not playing fast and loose iwth the translation.

- Monica Sandor
Dept. of History
Queen's University
Kingston, Ontario, CANADA
SANDORM@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA  or SANDORM@QUCDN.BITNET
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:58:30 MST
From:         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Queens school board

On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:31:00 GMT Bryan D. Boyle said:
>
>He should worry
>more about the 50% dropout rate, guns in his schools, open drug dealing
>in the hallways, and the lack of qualified teachers.  Physical survival
>is a bigger question that the hacks in the NY city education
>administration business should be concerned with rather than whether
>"Heather has two mommies..." or the mechanics of anal sex.
>

     Right On Bryan!  You'd think these school administrators would get the
message.  The Catholic Schools in the same area graduate 99% of their
students, have much higher test scores, virtually no assualts, etc. etc. etc.
They accomplish this with often higher student/teacher ratios, a fraction of
the student/administrator ratios that the public schools have, spend far less
per pupil, etc. etc. etc.  They do this despite the fact that a large
percentage of the Catholic students are socio-economically disadvantaged.
They do this despite the efforts of the Courts and government to place them at
a very competitive disadvantage.  A few years ago, one of the higher Courts
ruled that Public School Specialists for children with learning disabilities
could not be used in Catholic Schools despite the fact that the local govern-
ment wanted to use these specialists to help those disadvantaged kids.  The
Court felt that Separation of Church and State was more important than helping
disadvantaged kids.  Its amazing to me that the Catholic Schools do so
incredibly well.  Again - you'd think the Public School administrators would
get the message.  I guess they think teaching first graders about anal sex is
more important than the Christian values they hold in so much contempt.
    Here- have a condom!    Here - have a clean needle.
    Discipline? - oh no! we have no right to impose values on anyone else!
    Don't you #@$&% fascist Christians be telling me or these kids how to live!
    :(

Brent
From: achavez@UMSA.UMD.EDU (Alfred S. Chavez)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Prayer Request for Flores' Earth quake disaster
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:26:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>From:   IN%"DGPAZ@CLEMSON.CLEMSON.EDU" 14-DEC-1992 13:34:58.29
>Subj:   RE: Prayer Request for Flores' Earth quake disaster
>
>
>On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:21:13 GMT 98yuwono@CUA.EDU said:
>> Please pray for the victims of earthquake in the islands of Flores

>>>Are you suggesting that victims who are not Catholic
>>>should not be prayed for?

Leo, you were most patient and kind to respond to the mischievous DGPAZ@CLEMSON
as you did.

Requests for prayers for those close to us in Christ are always appropriate,
and do not imply any kind of exclusivity.  Charity begins at home and
enables charity to those further removed.

Back to Logic 101 and Scripture 101, DGPAZ!

Fred Chavez
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 08:44:06 EST
From:         "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Financing education (was Queens School Board
              92 3:42 pm

>
> Let's say the cost of sending a child to public shool in Richmond is "x".
> Let's say the cost of a private school education is "2x". If one half of
> the kids in Richmond are in public schools, and one half of the kids are
> in private white schools the actual cost to educate the kids in Richmond
> is three times the current allocation for the Richmond public schools.
>



The situation in New York is that the Catholic schools cost is x and the
public is 2x or 3x. :)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: ajpg1322@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Angelo J. Paguia)
Subject: Re: electronic bible
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 02:36:40 GMT

gjkirk@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Gerald Kirk) writes:

>Something that has worked well for me that you might want
>to try is daily devotions.  I have a Vision 2000 devotional book
>that provides a well-rounded approach to learning scripture and 
>spending one-on-one time with God.
(stuff deleted)
>In His Love,
>Gerald Kirk

>Jesus is the reason for the season...

The publishers of Vision 2000 have been sending me a bimonthly "Share
The Word" publication that looks like a missalette. Inside are 
commentaries on each of the Sunday readings, and I think on the Psalms,
too. The commentaries also point out particular items in the readings
that might have several meanings, other meanings that might not be
obvious, and explanations of things about Jewish culture that might
illuminate the readings. It is an excellent publication. 

It also includes occasional short essays on, for example, why we call
priests "father" against what the Protestants prescribe, etc, and
little life stories of conversion and living-in-the-Spirit from readers.

The first year's subscription can be free (donation, $5), and $5 for
subsequent years. It is worth much more than the $5 that you pay (and
they'll take more if you give more!). It is published by the Paulist
National Catholic Evangelization Association (PNCEA) in Washington, DC,
though the creators are really laymen who started out from having bible
studies and progressed to more intense study and publication. 

I don't have a copy with me at work, but if anyone is interested, I can
find the toll-free number for the subscription at home. Drop me a note.

Peace,
Angelo
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"CATHOLIC@AMERICAN.EDU"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:28:08 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Queens school board

"Bryan D. Boyle" <bdboyle@ERENJ.COM> writes:
>I would applaud the parish school for taking that stand and teaching
>moral and ethical values in line with Catholic (assuming it is a R.C.
>school) tradition and teaching.  Brainwashing?  I don't call teaching
>children that there is more to life than personal "choice" and teaching
>personal responsibility brainwashing.

Would you prefer, "indoctrination"? And yes, their parish is R.C., however,
they don't have kneelers:-)

>  Save that for planned parenthood,
>the abortuarium businesspeople, the new administration in Washington,
>and the TV networks. (i used to work for one of the nets in the news
>dept. - so I speak from personal observation.)

Get it all off your chest, now, Bryan:-)

>The point is not whether that topic should or should not be taught in a
>public school, but whether the an elected local board of education
>can be fired by an administrative hack that is hired by the board.  If
>that is the case, then why don't we just cut out the crap and admit that
>elections are a sop to the populace, and the elected officials have no
>real power.  Mr fernandez has no right to make a decision about teaching
>or providing a curriculum covering a moral question.  If he has that
>right, then the Church as the right to question government and demand
>the same accountability that the pressure groups and professional
>victims demand of the Church.

Well, excuse me for missing the point again:-), I didn't know that this
was an all out assault on democracy and the Church.

>He should worry
>more about the 50% dropout rate, guns in his schools, open drug dealing
>in the hallways, and the lack of qualified teachers.  Physical survival
>is a bigger question that the hacks in the NY city education
>administration business should be concerned with rather than whether
>"Heather has two mommies..." or the mechanics of anal sex.

Maybe his job is curriculum, not security or personnel.
...or at least the fire he's currently fighting:-)  - J.J.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Queens school board
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 12:59:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.032741.12416@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.214057.27057@erenj.com>
>bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:
>
>> Perhaps so that they can be inculcated early, and at an extremely 
>> impressionable age, about "alternative lifestyles" and acceptance 
>> of abortion, cohabitation, homosexuality, and moral relativism as
>     ^^^^^^^^                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> a legitimate form of expression
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>But if I express my beliefs that abortion or homosexuality is wrong I
>get condemned as sexist, or in favor of 'legislating morality', or
>homophobic, etc.  These days it sometimes seems legitimate only to
>express certain views.
>
I hope you read the heavy dose of sarcasm in the statement that 
I originally posted in response to Ms. Moreau's comments....Who
can deny that there is a blatant agenda practiced by venal politicians
such as Dinkens, clinton, et al, that deny moral (yeah, I know, I can
hear the knees jerking all over BITNET at that statement...)
standards in the pursuit of power, self-agrandisement, and ego
gratification.  They should all have to suffer the effects of that
which they propose...but they purposefully manage to exempt themselves
from that fate.  

Meanwhile, ted, those that are in power tell you that you are incapable
of deciding what _your_ child should be taught or even believe.
Remember, just pay your taxes and let "them" decide what is best.  You
are not smart enough, diverse enough, carry too many "prejudices", 
are not "up to date", or "prone to make moralistic judgements".
Just pay your money...

(off my soapbox now...:-))


-- 
Bryan D. Boyle     |Opinions are mine, not Exxon's...
Senior Engineer    |PVT/ASEL/IA
bdboyle@erenj.com  |(908) 730 3338
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: When will the new RC catechism be released in English?
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:31:08 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.224533.14136@u.washington.edu> mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith ) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.211531.6830@erenj.com>, bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:
>|> [stuff deleted]
>|> Which, in itself should be interesting, considering the usual hatchet 
>|> job most translator types do...
>|> 
>|> In the line of supposedly "correcting" the translation of prayers and
>|> texts, I wonder if they are retranslating the Confitior to make up for
>|> the absolutely horrid chop job they did on it in the 1969 missal...???
>|> 
>|> Betcha not...
>|> 
>
>Come on ... no need to take potshots at translators nor to stereotype them.  There are several different styles of translation which are used to preserve different aspects of the text - literal, intentional, poetic.  There is never a one-for-one relations
>hip between the original text and the translation ... an extreme example is Exercises in Style where the translator wrote entirely new chapters to mimic the word-play of the French (much to the delight of the original author).  Where the catechism is
>
>
>
>ively straight-forward prose there should be relatively little problem giving a good/accurate translation once the English translation of technical terms is determined.


My point, missed as usual, is that translations lately seem to be the
pawn of a social/political/theological agenda that have nothing to do
with whether they are rendered correctly or not.  "It is a more accurate
translation" when it suits the view of the translator/governing
body/whatever, "we tried to render it in the 'spirit' with which it was
written" (as if they were there, right?) if they can't theologically 
explain the uncomfortable facts away.  Otherwise, how would

"Confiteor Deo omnipotenti, beatae Mariae semper Virgini, beato Michaeli
Archangelo..." turn out like "I confess to almighty God and to you my 
brothers and sisters...".???

-- 
Bryan D. Boyle     |Exxon doesn't pay me to voice their opinions...
Senior Engineer    |Semper ubi sub ubi.
bdboyle@erenj.com  |On a clear day, you can see forever on the Net...
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Apparently-To: catholic@american.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:03:11 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 18-Dec-1992 1754" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      RE: Aslyum (Sanctury)

Corrected Info Line number:

 Operation Rescue Office Hours: Monday - Friday, 12:00 noon - 4:00 pm
 24-hour Information Line: (617) 849-6025 Office Telephone: (617) 849-6026

The people held pending trial in Connecticutt have all been released; if
you would still like to write to them, O.R. will forward mail for you if
you send it to them c/o Operation Rescue at:

512 Galvin Blvd #108
Dorchester, MA 02124

Fr. Carleton's sentence will not begin until 13 January.  He will then be
required to serve the first six months of his sentence, followed by a
three year probationary period during which time he may have not contact
at all with abortion clinics or Operation Rescue.  He is likely to violate
the terms of this probation.

/john
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1fc1
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:35:33 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Re: Asylum (sanctuary)

"Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM> writes:
>         Wow, and I thought that my bishop John Cardinal O'Connor was an
> American.  You learn new things everyday. :)

His citizenship is not the issue.  However, there are civil restrictions on
holding office if you owe allegience to "foreign powers", regardless of your
citizenship.  It's called "conflict of interest."


Peace,

Amanda Walker
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: CATHOLIC@american.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:21:20 PST
From:         J Scott Berg <ALHY@SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Queens school board
              14 Dec 92 10:58:30 MST." <2275181990A0493B@SCS.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

In a message of Mon, 14 Dec 92 10:58:30 MST Brent Winiger writes:

(Referring to Catholic schools)

> They do this despite the efforts of the Courts and government to place them a
> t
> a very competitive disadvantage.  A few years ago, one of the higher Courts
> ruled that Public School Specialists for children with learning disabilities
> could not be used in Catholic Schools despite the fact that the local govern-
> ment wanted to use these specialists to help those disadvantaged kids.  The
> Court felt that Separation of Church and State was more important than helpin
> g
> disadvantaged kids.

Just to put my two cents in...

I think your paragraph starts to focus in on the problem.  "Separation
of Church and State" is not what's happening in our government.  It's
becoming state-sponsored atheism.  When you refuse to allow anything
that has any relationship to religion into a government-related
activity, the government therefore is making a choice when it comes to
religion (more broadly, belief systems).  It says that any belief
system which does not acknowledge God as one of its tenets is
preferred in government institutions.  That is NOT separation of
church and state in my opinion.

                                -Scott Berg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed here are, of course, my own and nobody else's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Scott Berg
email: ALHY@slac.stanford.edu
real mail: Varian Physics
           Stanford  CA  94305-4060
phone:  (415) 926-4732 (w)
        (415) 326-2631 (h)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: electronic bible
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:59:17 GMT

In article <Bz4F0K.9Mt@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tpe36878@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Harry Conn
ick Jr. ) writes:
>   Also, I am wondering if any of you know of a good study guide/subject guide
>for the Bible for Catholics. What I am looking for is something that could
>direct me towards how to go about reading the Bible and what I should be looki
ng
>for in it. It just doesn't keep my attention to sit and read parts when I
>really don't know where to look for things.

The Catholic Church and the Bible
by Fr. Peter M.J. Stravinskas
Our Sunday Visitor
Huntington Indiana 46750

Catholicism and Fundamentalism
by Karl Keating
Ignatius Press
San Francisco
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: 15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr)
Subject: Re: re- a delicate matter
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:50:23 GMT

     Delicate indeed! John O'Callaghan gave a very good post
on related issues sometime back. Perhaps he would like to 
take a swing at this. My understanding is that any deliberate
excitement or stimulation of the genitals is out. I think
the idea is that such genital activity has as its proper
end intercourse, which in turn has ends spelled out in 
Humanae Vitae. Kissing, caressing, and .... that do not
deliberately aim at genital arousal are not in themselves
wrong. But one thing leads to another! If you can do certain
things without stimulating the "venerial appetite" you are
made of sterner stuff than I! To get carried away and go
a little overboard is regarded as less serious than deliberately
putting yourself in a situation where you know or anticipate
you are going to go overboard. Steve.