HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 14 Oct 92 03:13:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: Princeto.1992Oct14.031320.2462
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <matthew.719030531@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
>avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:

>>A copy of the Nazi prohibition against Kosher slaughtering was
>>passed by the Sejm in 1938. It was scheduled to take effect in
>>1942. Only the outbreak of the war in 1939 prevented its final
>>confirmation by the Senate. See Heller, "On the Edge of
>>Destruction", p. 107.

>As you say, the Senate did not confirm it, so it was NOT passed. How
>can you say, then, that it would have been confirmed were it not for
>the war? I mean, did anybody go around asking the senators how they
>would vote when the time came? Even so, people do change their minds.

well, the fact that only *one* house had a majority sufficiently 
anti-semitic and Nazi-influenced to (demonstrably) vote this way
sure changes everything, eh?

I think it's time to concede the point: Nazi legislation was admired
by a good many in positions of power in Poland, and attempts were made to
copy it.  In one case, already documented by Adam, it succeede; in other
cases, it was certainly not roundly rejected or anything.  

Roger
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:37:44 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Oct13.132856.21921@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

>In article <1992Oct13.161552.29537@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:

>>A copy of the Nazi prohibition against Kosher slaughtering was
>>passed by the Sejm in 1938. It was scheduled to take effect in
>>1942. Only the outbreak of the war in 1939 prevented its final
>>confirmation by the Senate. See Heller, "On the Edge of
>>Destruction", p. 107.

>I cannot simply catch how such a prohibition would have anything
>to do with placing anybody on "edge of destruction". Could anybody

Who said it did?  Are *you* now judging books by  their titles?  8-)

>specify in what sense kosher butchering is different from
>regular butchering  - what is required for kosher butchering ?

Specific ways (originally designed to be as humane as possible)
of slaughtering; blood disposal; removal of "unclean parts" in 
certain ways; etc.  You can easily look this up, btw.

>And especially I would be interested to read the exact
>statement from legislative that prohibited that kind of butchering.

See Heller, "On the Edge of Destruction," p.107.

>>Earlier, in 1936, the Polish government promulgated, in the form
>>of a decree issued by the Ministry of Commerce, and having the
>>force of law, a copy of Nazi legislation ordering that signs on
>>stores and establishments carry the name of the owners, as they
>>appeared on birth certificates (Heller, p. 104).

>That seems to be a little bit strange decree, somewhat resembling
>Quebec law - but still so different from what we seem to
>understand when anybody talks about Nazi legislation, even about
>discrimination based on religion or national origin. I think
>that if those Nazi accomplishments were not exceeded, we would
>still have Nazism blooming and people not complaining horribly.

Well, given that this measure makes boycotts much easier, I wouldn't
be so sure.  And given that there *were* anti-Semitic forces in Poland, 
do you suppose that such boycotts would not have happened?  Requiring
such information to be posted is an aid to those who wish to discriminate.

>Especially that even it is difficult to notice special discrimination
>like one that can be found in other countries that still are
>called nowadays democracies. As an example I can bring example of
>law that prohibits Palestinians from occupied territories to spend single 
>night in Israel even when they are employed there. Sometimes they 
>can get permission however.

Noted.  However, Israel is at war, please remember; and several 
Palestinian organizations call for the destruction of Israel even
today.  The measures passed in Poland in the 1930's were not wartime
measures.

Roger
From: roman@hri.com (Roman Budzianowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: To Roman Budzianowski
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:53:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: bigbird.7345
Organization: Horizon Research, Inc.

In article <1992Oct6.085509.29938@fuw.edu.pl>, michals@fuw.edu.pl (Michal Szleper) writes:
> Roman Budzianowski writes:
> >In article <1992Oct5.095857.12587@fuw.edu.pl>, michals@fuw.edu.pl (Michal Szleper) writes:

> >> >I certainly hope that this is not representative of the Polish
> >> >viewpoint on this issue.

> >> I'm affraid it is.

> >Since when Michal, you represent Polish point of view ? This was a rethorical question which
> >doesn't have to be answered. 

> First, I don't see any *question* in the above.  I have just expressed
> my opinion based on my 25 years of contacts with different Poles.  To
> your information, I am also a Pole, so any single point of view of mine is
> also a Polish one.  

You said that this particular viewpoint was representative of the Polish viewpoint on that
issue. I believe you are wrong, but more important you have no basis to claim so. You are
saying: "I talked seriously, over the last 25 years, with 25 Poles about the Palestinian
issue. They all agreed with me. Therefore, I conclude that my opinion represents Polish
opinion."

> And I certainly have the right to answer to anything
> I want without having to ask your permission.

Sure. You can write nonsense without my permision too.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:16:37 CDT


In article <93098@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>

>
>Who in s.c.j. thinks that Polish historians are neutral and
>objective? Wanna try a poll? Why do people think so? You see
>my point? (About Alek Mazur theories: I happen not to store his texts,
>but I remeber few days ago he mentioned something about Jews
>joining the Communist Political Police after the war, out of 
>vengeance. I'm still waiting for the letter he promised to release).
>
>
I do not think that there is any problem with access of previous posts.
Simply edit your .newsrc file and here you go again. You will be able
to show all those theories. Talking about UB I really think that it is
the area where you can show your balanced attitude. Simply bring us
Korbonski report that was referenced here, also colonel Swiatlo
reports.

A. Mazur

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: cheac@lure.latrobe.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: DONOSY
Date: 13 Oct 92 23:24:41 GMT
Organization: VAX Cluster, Computer Centre, La Trobe University

In his article of  6 Oct 92 00:34:01 GMT  ins548h@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au
(Mr M.S. Popkowski) asks:
>Czy ktos moglby mi dostarczyc informacji w jaki sposob moglbym dotrzec
>do DONOSOW? Monash Uni. na ktorym sie ucze jest podlaczony do sieci AARNET.
>Mirek Popkowski.

Cytat ze stopki redakcyjnej:
"Prenumerata: na zyczenie. Dystrybucja: e-mail......
 Zamowienia prosimy przysylac na nasz adres (e-mail), podajac swoj
 adres zwrotny (w tresci zamowienia!), pewne minimalne dane
 osobiste oraz okres, na ktory zamawiana jest prenumerata.
 Zamowienie powinno byc wyslane z adresu, na ktory prenumerata
 jest zamawiana. W miare moznosci prosimy podawac asresy BitNetowe...
 Cena za miesieczna prenumerate - postawienie redakcji
         (dobrego!) piwa lub innych lokalnych pysznosci."
 E-mail address :  IN%"donosy@fuw.edu.pl"

 _--_|\   Alex Czerwinski         |
/      \  Chemistry Department    | Phone: +61 3 4792508
\_.--._/  Latrobe University      | Fax:   +61 3 4785814
      v   Bundoora Victoria 3083  | Email: cheac@lure.latrobe.edu.au
          AUSTRALIA               |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: marek@sunvis1.vislab.olemiss.edu (Marek Czernuszenko)
Subject: Re: ******* Making friends ******
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 19:43:10 GMT

In <92283.225213AKBUKOWC@MTUS5.BITNET> AKBUKOWC@MTUS5.BITNET writes:


>         Od studenta z Michigan Technological University (USA)

>  Dziewczyny i chlopaki jesli nudza was powazne rozmowy o antysemityzmie
>i podobnych sprawach a macie ochote czasem popisac cos o studenckim
>zyciu to mail'ujci do mnie ale jesli mozecie to na adres AKBUKOWC@MTU.edu


>        From student at Michigan Technological University  (USA)

>  Girls & boys if serious conversations about antisemitizm and similar
>subjects make you boring, and you would like to write something about
>students' life mail me, but if you can use AKBUKOWC@MTU.edu address

Sorry jesli sie powtarzam , ale uzywam tego genialnego programu
od wczoraj, a nie jestem tez specem od angielskiego.

Jestem na Univ. of Mississippi w Oxford, MS od 2 miesiecy.
Studiuje computer science. Jest tu troche Polakow, ale
wszyscy to pracownicy Univ, a ze studentow to tylko ja.
Na razie probuje sie przystosowac do nowej rzeczywistosci i
zrozumiec jak to wszystko funkcjonuje.
Mam nadzieje ze tym razem ta wiadomosc dojdzie.

Moj drugi adres e-mailowy to:
marek@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu

Czesc, do uslyszenia
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: a57m@quads.uchicago.edu (miroslaw tadeusz sochanski)
Subject: polish word a Fredro
Reply-To: a57m@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 01:59:10 GMT

>dziobac' (jobache) 

Cale szczescie ze tak ladnie wyjasniles to slowko, jak myslalem ze
chodzi o jebacze od slowa jebac'.

Co przypomina mi anegdote o Fredrze, ktory w starszym juz wieku 
wykladal na universytecie, a jego mloda zona udzielala sie na uczelni.
Tak wiec Fredro przychodzi do klasy, studentow nie ma, a na tablicy 
napis:

"Stary Fredro w ksiazkach grzebie, a mu mlodziez zone jebie"

Po jakims czasie sytuacja sie odwrocila, studenci zaczeli sie
zbierac w auli, a na tablicy jest juz napis:

"Jebcie, jebcie moje dziadki, ja jebalem wasze matki i z tej wlasnie to
przyczyny wy jestescie skurwysyny"

Czy prawdziwe to watpie, ale poczekajmy moze jacys liniowi historycy
sie wypowiedza, a moze nawet nadadza sprawie nowy nieoczekiwany aspekt? 

Mirek
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: dczarkow@valhalla.cs.wright.edu (Dariusz Czarkowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: *** POLACY KSIAZKA ADRESOWA ***
Date: 17 Oct 92 00:34:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Oct17.003402.19091
Organization: Wright State University

>Czesc! Czesc! Czesc!
>Bardzo prosze o odpowiedz. Robie ksiazke adresowa, przesle kazdemu file.
>Znudzony dziwaczna dyskusja o antysemityzmie, pomyslalem, ze moze lepiej
>byloby
>stworzyc cos w rodzaju Polskiego Stowarzyszenia w Networku i moglibysmy:
>-gromadzic addresy i informacje,
>-pomagac w czasie podrozy prywatnych i sluzbowych,
>-udzielac informacji i porad,
>-moze rowniez pomagac np:
>        - w znalezieniu kontaktu,
>        - czy pracy w innych regionach Swiata,
>        - a moze udzielac informacji o business'ach.
>Co Wy na to Panowie?!
>Prosilbym o wszelkie informacje, moge byc punktem kontaktowym.
>Przyjmuje zgoszenia adddresow z krotka informacja o sobie i co robie.
>Jesli ktos ma adresy w Polsce - prosimy o informacje.
>
>Andrzej Feliga
>feliga@sscvx1.ssc.gov

Swietna inicjatywa!
Obserwujac dobre zorganizowanie na sieci innych narodow zastanawialem sie 
nieraz czy my tez moglibysmy przeskoczyc prog list dyskusyjnych i s.c.p.
Dzieki Andrzeju za podjecie sie zorganizowania bazy danych.
Czy przedsiewziecie sie uda zalezy m.in. od ilosci zgloszen.
Zatem Polacy wszystkich krajow laczcie sie (oops, cos nie tak wyszlo).

Darek Czarkowski
dczarkow@valhalla.cs.wright.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: wlodek@forwiss.uni-erlangen.de (Wlodzimierz Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Oplata za Studia: SONDAZ: REPEATED
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 11:21:50 GMT

akb01@rrz.uni-koeln.de (Damian Nocon) writes:
>Za pobyt w szpitalu, jak rowniez za wszystkie zabiegi, medikamente, etc...
>placi Krankenkasse, pacjenci musza ale 10,-DM / dzien z wlasniej kieszeni
>placic (310,-DM / miesiac).

Tak zle nie jest. Oplata jest ograniczona do pierwszych bodajze 20 dni pobytu
w szpitalu. W kazdym razie projekt nowej ustawy, ktora zyskala juz
uznanie koalicji rzadowej i opozycyjnej SPD, zaklada udzial wlasny pacjenta
w wysokosci 12 DM/dzien przez pierwsze 20 dni pobytu w szpitalu. Znacznie
wiekszym obciazeniem dla kieszeni ubezpieczonego moga byc uslugi protetyczne.
Kasy chorych pokrywaja tylko 60 wzgl. 70% kosztow i to tylko podstawowego
materialu.  W prywatnych kasach procent moze byc wiekszy.
Jezeli dobrze zrozumialem nowy projekt, przewiduje sie pelna odplatnosc
pacjenta np. za mostek powyzej 4 zebow.

W.Kasprzak
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 03:06:01 GMT

avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:

>In the particular instance cited by Dawidowicz, the intended
>impression that the ordinary reader will have obtained from the
>cited passage is exactly as described by her. If you do a close,
>lawyerly reading, you will indeed find that the author produces
>the desired impression without actually saying what he seems to
>say. But how many readers of such books will have read that closely?

Or, he said it without saying it. It boggles the mind...


MB
From: avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Summary: 1968 was the result of Soviet fears about the effect
	 of the 1967 Israeli victory on feelings in Poland.
Date: 14 Oct 92 23:56:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsj.1992Oct14.235637.19671
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct14.160713.3085@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> But Poland was not entirely a puppet of the SU; and the anti-Semitic
> campaign of 1968 did not deal with Soviet issues, so far as I can tell.

If you can't tell, it must be because you don't know.
But if you checked Lendvai's "Anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe",
which will have to do until Jerzy Eisler's "Marzec 1968" is
translated into a language you read, you would have found out
otherwise. The Soviets had ordered the satellite governments to
to carry out anti-Zionist campaigns after the Israeli victory in
1967. That victory, over the armies of much larger ennemies, who
were armed with Soviet weapons and led by Soviet officers, was to
the Poles a soul-lifting reminder that the Russians are not
invincible, that they can be beaten, and that, even in the last
third of this century, a smaller country could defeat a much
larger ennemy, just as Poland had defeated the Soviets 47 years
before. A theatre in Warsaw staged "Dziady", a patriotic
19th-century play about Poland's yearning for its lost freedom.
When the anti-Russian passages of the play were staged with mimed
illusions to the Israeli victory, the audience burst into wild
applause. The Russians ordered the play closed. A group of mostly
Jewish students staged public demonstrations against the closing
of the play, and much greater numbers of non-Jewish students
joined them, in a display of pro-freedom sentiment unlike
anything seen in Warsaw since the Soviets marched in in 1945.
A panicked Soviet agent referred to the leaders of the
demonstration as "Jewish commandos", a label that is used in
reference to them by admiring Poles to this day. The Russians
then ordered the Polish government to get rid of "Zionist
subversives". The anti-Semitic campaign of 1968 was the result.

				Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed)
Subject: Jewish sources on early Poland
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:15:42 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Summary: Old Polish in Hebrew/Arabic transcriptions

In article <dobo.718864595@swalwell>, dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz) writes:
> (By the way, you promised details on those Hebrew texts in 13th century
> Poland and earlier. We are still waiting for them.)

I have several secondary (or is it tertiary) references, most of
them to specifics in

T.Lewicki, Zrodla arabskie do dziejow Slowianszczyzny, Wroclaw
1956;

and

F.Kupfer and T.Lewicki, Zrodla hebrajskie do dziejow Slowian i
niektorych innych ludow srodkowej i wschodniej Europy, Wroclaw
1956.

I have been trying to find these; my plan was to post more after
I have read the above - or given up. In the meantime, I recall
that you have "The Jews in Poland", edited by Abramsky,
Jachimczyk & Polonsky. The first chapter, "The beginnings of
Jewish settlement in the Polish lands", by Aleksander Gieysztor,
touches on several of the most important references: Ibrahim ibn
Yaakub, Sefer ha Dinim, Yehuda ben Meir haKohen, etc.

					Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: On relativity of sources
Date: 7 Oct 92 08:42:05 CDT


In article <91902@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.132713.11047@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>>Also interesting part of entire story is a letter
>>from Palestinian Jews to Polish Jews warning them not to join UB.
>>Unfortunately many, I would say too many did not follow that
>>good advice.
>>
>>A. Mazur
>
>Could you post a reference for that?
>
>--
>
>Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania |Due to circumstances beyond
>Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter |your control, you're master of 
>Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                |your fate and captain of your soul

I will try to do even more - post context of that letter, but I need some
time to get it. In the meantime I would be interested to get Korbonski
historical reports about positions of Jews within UB - there was such a
reference in published here reports. That would straighten things up
at least for some time. I would be also interested to hear about top
positions occupied within Polish Ministry of Interior in 1968 when
there were purges in Poland. Accordingly to my sources there were
six viceminister positions occupied by people of Jewish decent
when those purges were conducted - general Moczar was minister then.
I need confirmation or denial - does anybody have names of viceministers
in Interior Ministry during 1968 ?

A. Mazur
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 9 Oct 92 19:38:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: walter.1992Oct9.143853.11472


In article <7342@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> roman@hri.com (Roman Budzianowski) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.091120.7628@walter.cray.com>, aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>
>> Thre is completely different story with falsifications of Polish
>> history. It is not new for Jewish community. Those falsifications
>> were taken seriously as it was clearly and undeniably shown in this
>| discussion. There are several positions that try to convert
>            ---------------------------------------------------
>| people fighting with Nazis during war and who survived Nazi
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>| ocuupation to be exterminated after war in large scale terror that
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>| most of people living in the West cannot imagine. This is simply unacceptable.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Even single oppressor from UB which was not better in any aspect
>> than SS was not punished so far. But those people after immigration
>> managed to falsify the history so victims of mass terror now can
>> look like murderers and murderers are cleared - they did wonderful
>> things. I saw even movie here showing like UB was protecting Jewish
>> orphanage while Home Army was attacking that. Don't you think that it is
>> digusting for families of people who were slaughtered by those criminals?
>
>
>Could you translate the above paragraph for me ?
>
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
>> Aleks

Yes, point for you - you got me, that sentence was blown and unclear.
Reading it again - I would simply erase that sentence. The word
"convert" does not fit there . That paragraph however is readable
without that sentence, I hope. Sometimes it happens, sorry about
that - I didn't want to be unclear, but I was. So I prefer to forget
that sentence (if I may) instead of fixing it.

AM
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:58:07 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <dobo.719127796@swalwell> dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz) writes:
>roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>In article <1992Oct14.100620.2377@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

>[...] Rhetoric on both sides.

>>On the other hand, I'm *still* not sure what this has to do with the history   
>>of Poland.

>And can only add my support to this statement. Israel is a very special
>country and should be judged using very special rules. There is no point
>in trying to equate the state of Israel with Poland, even in 1920, when it
>faced an aggression that threatened her destruction.
>After all, until the Nazis, all the invadors of Poland were not into
>"racial cleansing".

Right on.  

And now, with your indulgence, I'm going to take a break from this 
discussion; to continue would require a lot of research on my part,
and I hav eto put the research I get paid for (or possibly get a 
degree for) first.

One exception: Monica has promised me some details about that 
mysterious church.  I'll be back with those when she emails them to
me -- or maybe she'll just post them.  OK?

Roger
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism (Take 2)
Keywords: Invectives
Date: 12 Oct 92 14:24:45 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Oct12.040537.1876@gagme.chi.il.us> anton@gagme.chi.il.us (Andrzej Borowiec) writes:

>
>Mam tez "O PRZYCZYNACH SZKODLIWOSCI ZYDOW
>        takze o srodkach i usposobieniu ich,
>        aby sie spoleczenstwu uzytecznymi stali
>        opracowane przez Stanislawa Staszica"
>
>Puscic na siec?


Naturalnie, naturalnie...



--

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania |Due to circumstances beyond
Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter |your control, you're master of 
Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                |your fate and captain of your soul
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:3062 soc.culture.romanian:1096 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9054
From: silatman@hls.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Nationwide Demo for Bosnia,Fri.Oct 16
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:36:00 GMT