From: me@halfab.ka.sub.org  (Udo_Meyer)
Subject: Re: animals in research. 
Organization: Udo Meyer, Postwiese 32, 7746 Hornberg, Germany, 49 7833 1425
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 03:37:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.214528.6725@samba.oit.unc.edu> itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg  
Popken) writes:
> In article <1992Nov9.235142.321@halfab.ka.sub.org> me@halfab.ka.sub.org   
(Udo_Meyer) writes:
> >In article <1992Nov8.210634.755@halfab.ka.sub.org> me@halfab.ka.sub.org   
> >(Udo_Meyer) writes:
> >> 
> >> Animals died without any reason again. And many humans died also. :-(
> >> 
> >Oh Oh. Bad news again. Just seen a TV-report about a new scandal
...

> What medical treatments have your undergone in your life?  They seemed to
> have worked.(I won't install a sarcastic remark here. Please fill in your
> own.)
Hot tea and a bed are the only treatments I trusted the last 20 years.
And as I can see with my brother in law. If you need help,
if you really need it, then after visiting 10 or more doctors and
clinics and after eating medicine like bonbons they are not able
to help you because they do not know the reason of the problem and
therefor not how to help you! Really, they see that there is something
getting wrong but they do not have any idea :-(((((

> What training do you have in the biological sciences that qualifies you to
> decide that animal research is worthless. 
Are trained biological scientists qualified to decide that animal research
is the only helpful method? Are biological scientists not the more prejudiced?
The above information referencing my brothers in law problems is an example
about the qualification of one-track-specialists.

> Do you have any idea of the parameters that need to be controled?   
> Do you know what a control is?
> Do you understand statistics and the concept of confidence intervals?
The company, precise its managers which sold the bad medicine are suited
in the USA because they withheld the information that their medicine
killed people. The medicine was forbidden in Great Britain immediately
after the controling authority spoke with the company because they got a hint
from an independant observer. In Germany you got this medicine much longer.
The time period we are speaking of is not some days, it is about a decade!
But the bad guys are not always the people in research.
They had detected that there is a problem.
Money, money, money, money ....
Remember also: illicit medicine is still sold to the 3rd world countries!?

> Do you have any idea of the hundreds of thousands of times that animals
> research predicted correctly the outcome of human studies?
Yes, hundreds of thousands of animals suffered and died.
And it makes me sad because (2nd hand) information tells that most of them
suffer unnecessary. Many tests and the quantity of tests are not necessary.
The animals are held in small cages in 'cleanrooms'. This alone is torture.
And isn't termination of living life as low as abortion of growing life?

> How do you propose we develope new treatments for patients?
Allright. You got very useful sensors and systems to look into patients
without harming them. You got CAD-Systems and supercomputers.
You got test methods with cell cultures. And another (2nd hand) info
told that some plants seem to react better and more reliable than animals,
in connection with heart diseases!?!
How about experiments on one's own body?
And then try new ways. Shatter renal calculuses, don't operate or
don't do it with massive concentration of chemicals.

> Do you bother to read and primary data or does all you information come
> second hand?
Information coming first hand see at the top please.
And reporters (newspaper and TV) uncover nasty scandals reliable.
And experts get their informations also 2nd hand from specialist periodicals.

Udo.

-- 
if our steak could wail ...