HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jamesd@techbook.com (James Deibele)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Distribution: pnw
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:13:13 GMT

zeke@fasttech.com (Bohdan Tashchuk) writes:

>In <C0E7pF.9yv@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> sjm2458@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (The Steve-meister) writes:

>>o  The party-like atmosphere with people singing and rejoycing about how
>>   *great* it is to put someone to death.

>If I were in Walla Walla last night, I think I would have simply felt quiet
>satisfaction. Some people literally shot off fireworks, and that seems to be
>in quite poor taste. We should treat all people with dignity, even while
>executing them. (A strange sentence, that last, isn't it?)

The bOregonian had an editorial on this, criticizing the people who were
there celebrating Dodd's death.  The celebration was tacky and ghoulish,
but it should also be recognized for what it is: one more sign that the 
general public is fed up with the way our government works.

People are tired of repeat offenders being let loose only to rob, maim,
or kill other innocent victims.  One of the most shocking things about
this case was that someone who was clearly guilty was put to death 
relatively quickly.

If you were to ask the "man on the street", she would say that our 
judicial system was not working.  Some would say that the fix is to 
stiffen sentences, others to say that more money should be spent in 
programs to help repeat offenders or to prevent people from getting 
entangled in the justice system in the first place.  But hardly
anyone thinks the justice system --- or any government system --- is 
working very well.

Ross Perot is a sign of this.  Measure 5 is a sign of this.  And it's
about time that the government start listening.  

--
jamesd@techbook.COM                   "2516 newsgroups & nothing on ..."  
PDaXs gives free access to news & mail. (503) 220-0636 - 1200/2400, N81  
Full internet (ftp, telnet, irc) access available. Voice: (503) 223-4245
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: spady@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robyn Spady)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Organization: Boeing
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:53:07 GMT

>I look at goverment and see that guys like Charles Manson and Sirhan Sirhan
>have parole hearings on a regular basis
>
However, in the cases of the two above mentioned individuals:  Charles Manson
has never killed anyone himself (personally that is) and Sirhan Sirhan killed
an 'ordinary citizen' when he shot Robert Kennedy . . . Kennedy was legally
a regular kind of guy where and at the time he was killed . . . Therefore, 
I would think eventually Sirhan Sirhan will find himself paroled . . . How
long he stays alive outside the protection of prison is another matter.

>Even when people are put behind bars "without possibility of parole", there
>are always people like Mike Dukakis who think they should get weekends off
>for a little R & R.

It seems to me, that when someone commits a crime serious enough to warrant
a jail sentence . . . things like conjugal visits, etc. are appalling!  For
heavens sake, we treat our prisoners better than we do military personnel.

When prisoners complain about lack of space . . . they should be reminded of
what the accommodations on a naval ship look like . . . 

Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:57:03 GMT

jrm@pgroup.com (John R Mudd) writes:

>In article <crystal.726283133@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
>>Likely the reason is more due to security and fear of the daughter getting 
>>harrassed or kidnapped or something.  That's not something a parent will admit
>>in public, but it's not unreasonable for a President's child.  As a govenor,
>>there was nothing to fear...now there could be.

>I thought that Amy Carter went to public school.  Can anyone else remember
>that far back?

The news last evening did report that Amy Carter was the last child of a President
to attend public schools in D.C.

allen
From: noah@cs.washington.edu (Rick Noah Zucker)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:43:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: beaver.1993Jan6.184314.11149
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle

In article <1993Jan6.165703.27804@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>jrm@pgroup.com (John R Mudd) writes:
>
>>In article <crystal.726283133@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
>>>Likely the reason is more due to security and fear of the daughter getting 
>>>harrassed or kidnapped or something.  That's not something a parent will admit
>>>in public, but it's not unreasonable for a President's child.  As a govenor,
>>>there was nothing to fear...now there could be.
>
>>I thought that Amy Carter went to public school.  Can anyone else remember
>>that far back?
>
>The news last evening did report that Amy Carter was the last child of a President
>to attend public schools in D.C.

	That is not much of a surprise.  After all since Carter, Reagan
and Bush were President, and they did not have school-age children when 
they were President.

						      Rick Noah Zucker
From: prang@plato.ds.boeing.com (Ron Wanttaja)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Short Fall (was Re: More about Wes)
Date: 9 Jan 93 02:34:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: plato.C0KF5M.Kq0
Organization: Boeing Defense & Space Group

In article <4152@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM writes:
>>According to the autopsy report, Dodd died of strangulation (slow) rather than
>>by his spine being snapped (quick).

Sounds like the rope was too short.  I seem to recall they dropped him
about 7 1/2 feet.  I don't know how heavy he was, but that probably wasn't 
far enough.  He looked like a little dude... call it 150-160 pounds or so.
Barry's _The Business Side of Hanging_ (a *must* for every conservative's
library :-) ) calls for a drop of 8 feet ten inches for a 161-pound person.
An even 9 feet for a 154-pounder.  Be interested to see how the Army 
manual used by the DOC differs. 

And in case anyone hasn't figured it out yet, the "abdominal motions"
reported by the witnesses were probably his bowels and bladder voiding.  My
wife used to work for a vet, and she saw the same types of motions when
they put animals to sleep.

                                          Ron Wanttaja
					  prang@plato.ds.boeing.com
From: gaulandm@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM (Mike Gauland)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:09:08 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, OR

In article <1853@rwing.UUCP> pat@rwing.UUCP (Pat Myrto) writes:
>I found it more than a little curious how the ACLU could claim 'cruel
>and unusual' punishment for Dodd, seeing as that was what he REQUESTED...

What has Dodd's wishes to do with anything?  If Dodd had thought any form of
execution was "cruel and unusual" would you have been in favor of commuting
his sentence?  It seems odd to look do Dodd for guidance.

-- 
Michael A. Gauland	gaulandm@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM  
AA7JF			(503) 627-5067
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Trust Me - I'm from the Government to help you
Date: 7 Jan 93 19:11:46 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

In article <2440@shaman.wv.tek.com> alanj@endeavor18.tek.com (Alan Jeddeloh) writes:
>
>I might point out that the overhead in the Medicaid program is currently
>estimated at 4%.  The overhead for private insurance averages 7%.  I recall
>the figures from Time magazine.

According to figures I got from St. Charles hospital in Bend, and
verified by a friend who is a claims adjuster in Portland, private
insurance overhead runs anywhere from 25% to 40%! Yikes! No wonder
they fight to preserve the status quo. They're cutting a fat hog
at our expense!

Mike
From: davide@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (David H Eby)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 5 Jan 93 19:23:40 GMT
Reply-To: davide@tekig6.pen.tek.com
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <4142@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:
>
>As noted by one TV reporter, many of those gathered outside the prison
>to SUPPORT THE HANGING where CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS and RIGHT TO
>LIFERS!
>
>So much for thou shalt not kill and sanctity of life!
>
>Mike

Normally I just watch these debates and say nothing.  However, Mike is not
representing the Biblical perspective correctly here.  Two points:

  1. A correct translation of Exodus 20:13, which appears in the King James
     (*not* the language in common use today, incidentally!) as "Thou shalt
     not kill" is given in the New American Standard Bible, one of the most
     scholarly (and correct) translations, as "You shall not commit murder."
     The only other modern translation I have here at work, the New
     International Version, says "You shall not murder."  An execution, such
     as occurred this morning, does not fall under this provision.  See next
     point.

  2. If you are going to take things in the context of the Old Testament,
     which is where Exodus is located, capital punishment is the *only*
     punishment given for many crimes.  "You shalt not commit murder" is
     totally consistent with capital punishment in the Old Testament.

The issue gets a bit more clouded in the light of the New Testament.  However,
read Romans 12:17-13:7.  Two bits from there which together would seem to
support the government's right to carry out capital punishment:
  12:19 - "Do not take revenge... but leave room for God's wrath."
  13:4  - "He [authorities] is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring
	   punishment on the wrongdoer."
Please read the entire passage to get the context before responding to what
I've included here.

Another comment...  The "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot
for foot, burn for burn, bruise for bruise" provision (Exodus 21:24,25) was
a *limiting* law.  Feuds which boil up with each side doing progressively 
more violent things to the other side were effectively eliminated by this.
It was *not* a way of justifying major revenge.

David Eby
Tektronix, Inc
From: erik@tera.com (Erik Hedberg)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:23:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: tera.1993Jan5.212321.23381
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Tera Computer Company, Seattle, WA

The propriety of capital punishment is a hotly debated topic, and I
have found my views changing with time.

I hear and understand the argument that if killing is wrong, then all
killing is wrong.  Capital punishment is clearly killing, so by that
argument it is simply state-sanctioned murder.

On the other hand, society generally agrees that the punishment should
fit the crime.  This has led to "an eye for an eye", but as MLK
pointed out that simply makes us all blind.  If you are going to take
the "eye for eye" punishment to the limit, rapists would be raped,
muggers mugged, and persons causing great bodily harm would be
similarly crippled/maimed/whatever.  This is generally not done.

Further clouding the issue is the fact that "life without parole" is
*cheaper* than execution.  Some people might not agree with this, but
this is what I was taught in a criminal law class in college.  You can
do the math for yourself.  If it costs $40K/yr to house inmates, and
about $100K to build a cell, and the "average" inmate in question is
sentenced at age 27, lives to age 75, this comes to (75-27)*40K + 100K
= $2.02M (in a new cell).  This is a lot, but the costs of appeals
easily exceeds this.  Remember, government pays the prosecutors,
defense attorneys, and the judges.  The figure we were taught (in
1975) was about $10M for capital appeals to be exhausted.
Streamlining the appeals process reduces the $10M, but it needs to be
cut by 80% to match the $2M.

In article <1993Jan5.060212.11129@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
[snip]
>If Dodd had killed one of my sons, what would I have done?  Kill him?
>I realize that Dodd's death will insure that one less child molester
>is free in our society, but it still doesn't bring back the Isely
>boy or the Neer boys.  What a puzzle this all is . . . 

It is to me too.  I believe that killing is wrong, I do not strictly
support "an eye for and eye" punishment, execution of the murderer
will not bring back the victims, and I believe that "life w/o parole"
is cheaper.  But I'm still mildly in favor of capital punishment.  It
makes no sense.

Erik
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: spady@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robyn Spady)
Subject: Re: Danger!!!
Organization: Boeing
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 20:35:37 GMT

In article <C0Jp2r.9ts@shuksan> major@shuksan (Mike Schmitt) writes:
>: 
>: It's a DISCO PARTY with DISCO LIGHTS DISCO MUSIC and a VILLAGE PEOPLE film.
>
>  Awright!  I knew I kept my blue silk shirt and white sports jacket and
>  pants for a reason.  I'm going home and watch "Saturday Night Fever" just
>  to refresh my memory.....

SILK!!!!!!  My experience with the infamous disco era was that tacky polyester	(referred to as quiana - I question the spelling) materiel . . . Noone had	taste good enough to warrant silk.

Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: jamesd@techbook.com (James Deibele)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Distribution: pnw
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:29:45 GMT

mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:

>In article <C0CGA6.CnH@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:
>>
>>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it

>As noted by one TV reporter, many of those gathered outside the prison
>to SUPPORT THE HANGING where CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS and RIGHT TO
>LIFERS!

>So much for thou shalt not kill and sanctity of life!

I'm not a CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST or a RIGHT TO LIFER.  However, I don't
see that the issues of capital punishment and abortion have anything to 
do with one another.  Abortion, according to the RIGHT TO LIFERS, is 
murder of an innocent victim.  The key word is "innocent".  Capital 
punishment is reserved for the very worst murders, crimes where the 
murderer has shown "special circumstances" deserving his execution.

I don't equate abortion with murder and I'm often outraged at the force
RIGHT TO LIFERS use to keep women from abortion clinics.  On the other 
hand, what conduct should be expected if you believe that your
government tolerates institutional murder of innocent victims?  What if
it finances the murder of innocent victims?

Given that RIGHT TO LIFERS have suffered major political setbacks in
1992, one might worry about an increase in the amount of violence
directed at abortion clinics.  They've tried to shut them down via
political means, now they may turn to other means.  

Personally, I consider the execution of Westley (there's a "t" in there) A. 
Dodd as "recycling".  People who believe in reincarnation can hope that he 
does better next time around.  People who don't won't have to pay for
his incarceration for 50 or 60 years.  For whatever reason, this person
was defective.  By recyling him, we make sure that he doesn't harm other
people.  And we can hope (though I doubt) that 100% of the money that
would have been spent on his incarceration is given to programs to help
parents and kids.

I see no contradiction between saying "life is precious" and "people who
take life deserve to die".  The difference between somebody killing me
for my wallet or because I cut him off on the freeway and the state
killing him for killing me is so obvious that I find it hard to
comprehend how anyone could equate them.  And that's what most people
believe, too.

Polls of the American public have shown for a number of years that they
favor the death penalty and abortion.  I'm supicious of any poll that
shows "most Washingtonians do NOT favor the execution of prisoner X".
Because of the terrible nature of his crimes and his undoubted guilt,
I'm even more supicious of any poll that claims "most Washingtonians did
NOT favor the execution of Westley A. Dodd".

--
jamesd@techbook.COM                   "2516 newsgroups & nothing on ..."  
PDaXs gives free access to news & mail. (503) 220-0636 - 1200/2400, N81  
Full internet (ftp, telnet, irc) access available. Voice: (503) 223-4245
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: jeff@hfglobe.intel.com (Jeff Freeman)
Subject: Re: Incredible Universe
Organization: Intel Corporation
Distribution: pnw
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:20:40 GMT

In article <2429@shaman.wv.tek.com> andrew@frip.wv.tek.com writes:
>[]
>
>	"What is "The Incredible Universe" near Wilsonville, Ore.,
>	besides something I saw when driving up I-5 last weekend?"
>
>It's a very big Radio Shack, selling a large variety of electronic and
>electric products.  Cameras, computers, TVs and stereos, refrigerator,
>washing machines ...

That's right, but I must add that a lot of the brands they carry are a bit
better than Tandy and other stuff you'll find at a real Radio Shack.

>Prices are okay.  Coverage is not great -- they only have a few product
>lines in each category.  The "cast members" (salespeople) don't know a
>lot about their wares.

This is also what I've found...

>Incredible Universe is controversial here because they won't let you in
>without a membership card, which they issue.  The application form
>requires you to give quite a bit of personal information.  You must use
>this card each time you make a purchase, so IU can keep a complete list
>of everything you've bought.  Speculation is that they turn this
>information into targeted marking lists.

Yeah, but you can always make up some fake address and phone number so that
you don't get any mailing stuff...  I really don't care if they keep track 
of what I buy there...

Jeff
jeff@hfglobe.intel.com
From: zeke@fasttech.com (Bohdan Tashchuk)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: More about Wes (really, contradictions & FUD about death)
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:35:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: fasttech.1993Jan8.213509.3936
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Fast Technology   Beaverton, OR

In <1993Jan8.002742.29577@eskimo.com> kurt@eskimo.com (Kurt Cockrum) writes:

>We have been slaughtering each other for thousands of years
>and we don't even know how to hang a man, and so we've developed
>"humane" methods like lethal injection!  Isn't that wierd?
>Are we all hypercivilized or what?  How has a whole body of knowledge,
>painfully built up over hundreds of thousands of deaths, been lost?
>Do we all have a case of selective memory?

But we do have a very quick and humane method. For some reason it isn't
used here, maybe because the French popularized it. All we have in this
country is some colorful cliches, eg "Heads will roll over this."

It seems to me that a guillotine with a sharp blade should work pretty
well. After all, how long can a head live after it has been detached
from the body? Does anyone know why this method is in disfavor?
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: fyl@fylz.wa.com (Phil Hughes)
Subject: Re: Trust Me - I'm from the Government to help you
Organization: FYL
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 07:20:56 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Bill Campbell (bill@Celestial.COM) wrote:

: One problem is that our medial ``insurance'' has evolved so that
: it isn't insurance at all, but a method to pay regular medical
: expenses (sort of like buying food insurance to pay your bills at
: the grocery store).  When I sold health insurance in (1965-1966)
: there were Major Medical policies that were designed to cover
: unexpected medical expenses.  The whole idea of insurance is to
: cover unusual events, not the day-to-day normal expenses.  This
: way the cost of the unusual events is spread out over a larger
: group of people so the cost is lower per person.  Using medical
: ``insurance'' to pay normal bills is ridiculous since it costs at
: least $40 to process every claim (that's why there are
: deductibles on auto insurance -- to elimnate the small claims).

Can't argue here.  The current "insurance" structure just doesn't work
if we attempt to pay regular bills.  That is what is wrong with it.

It seems there are two approaches:
  1. Decide health care is a right (as they did in Canada) and
     implement an efficient system that makes it available much
     like other government insured services such as police
     protection
  2. Decide that health care is something that people need to
     get for themselves and treat all persons attempting to
     secure health care in an equitable manner (Note I don't mean
     equally -- someone in a high risk of injury job should expect
     to pay more for health care but such a person should have
     equal access to health care as opposed to the group plan
     approaches and cost benefits that employers benefit from)

Personally I think health care should be a right and think we need to
implement a system that insures that it is.  But, if we elect not to I
agree completely with Bill's point and would like to see Major Medical
plans be offered again as the standard "insurance plan".
-- 
Phil Hughes - FYL - 8315 Lk City Wy NE - Suite 207 - Seattle, WA 98115 
Phone: 206-526-2919 x74      Fax: 526-0803
E-mail: fyl@fylz.com or nwnexus!fylz!fyl
From: tkpowell@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Terry Powell)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:47:28 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc.

In article <1853@rwing.UUCP> pat@rwing.UUCP (Pat Myrto) writes:
>
->I found it more than a little curious how the ACLU could claim 'cruel
->and unusual' punishment for Dodd, seeing as that was what he REQUESTED...
->Kinda makes one wonder if the motive was more to get headlines than any
->concern for the nature of the punishment...  the selective defense of
->the Bill of Rights, replete with 'creative' interpretations, depending
->on how it fits their agenda and how much free publicity it will garner is
->a well known practice of the ACLU.

I believe Dodd requested hanging because he didn't want to spend the rest
of his life in a 5 X 12 cell.  To him that was worse punishment.  If
punishment was what we are really after, confining him to a tiny cell
might have been the best way to go.  I, however am glad they hung the
little scum.  Seemed appropriate to me.  The ACLU actions seemed
appropriate. Hey they're lawyers too.  Just playing the legal game.  Do
you think they have a lock on creative interpretations of the Bill of
Rights?  I think not.

-- 

Terry Powell       Email - Terry.K.Powell@tek.com       Portland,Or