From: homebrew@lupulus.ssc.gov
Subject: HOMEBREW Digest #948
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 09:26:46 GMT


HOMEBREW Digest #948		             Fri 14 August 1992


	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Flaked grains ("PAUL EDWARDS")
  Sierra Nevada Porter (Jonathan A. Rodin)
  Headspace (G.A.Cooper)
  RE^2- chillers (Chris McDermott)
  Houston Hotspots (jadams)
  Hop texts ("John L. Isenhour")
  Mashing from Micah Millspaw (BOB JONES)
  Banana esters (Paulaner hefe-weisse) (Aaron Birenboim)
  cider apples (Aaron Birenboim)
  malt prices ("PAUL EDWARDS")
  CO Hops (Aaron Birenboim)
  wheat allergies (mcnally)
  Help for a novice (Karl F. Bloss)
  back to extract (Brian Bliss)
  Re: The Good Ol' Days... (John E. Greene)
  Sassafras (dbehm)
  Re: SmartBrewers, Hydrometers, Flames, and Wheat beer. ( Neil Mager )
  VITIMIN C and sundries (Jack Schmidling)
  Yeast Nutrient (Jay Hersh)
  Head Space, etc . . . (Sam Israelit)
  Has no one used ascorbic acid? (Chuck Coronella)
  Alt or Kolsch Yeast (John Freeborg)
  modified V.S. under modified malts (Roy Styan)
  Explosions and flames (Don Scheidt)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 92 06:58:00 EST
From: "PAUL EDWARDS" <8260PE@INDINPLS.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Flaked grains

Andy Phillips asks:

>And now I have a question: why do unmalted grains such as wheat and
>rye have to be gelatinized (cooked) before mashing? I just made a
>batch of bitter with 2 lbs of flaked rye, forgot to gelatinize it,
>but got a sensible yield: about 85% of the maximum possible. Any
>have a hard, scientific explanation for this?

Yeas, Andy.  Flaked grains are already gelatinized in the "flaking" process
(grians are steamed and then rolled) and do not need to be cooked before
introducing them into the mash-tun.  Raw grains need to crushed/cracked and
cooked to break up the starch globules to allow the enzymes gain access.

So it sounds like you don't have a problem.  More info on the cooking process
can be had in books like M&B Science or the Practical Brewer.

  -- Paul


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 08:32:21 -0400
From: rodin@ftp.com  (Jonathan A. Rodin)
Subject: Sierra Nevada Porter

I have noticed that SN porter is smoother, creamier, better balanced than
other porters I have tried (or brewed).  Does anyone have a recipe (grain or
extract) for a SN porter like brew?  Any clues as to how to get that
creamy taste?

Jon

-
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Rodin                   ftp Software, Inc.            voice: (617) 224-6261
rodin@ftp.com               26 Princess Street            fax:   (617) 245-7943
                            Wakefield, MA  01880


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:59:19 +0100
From: G.A.Cooper@qmw.ac.uk
Subject: Headspace

Jack says:

>It seems that there is a very simple solution IF the problem is the O2 in
>the headspace.  Why not just fill the botle up and leave NO headspace?

It depends whether you are concerned about thermal expansion/contraction.
That is, beer and glass rates being different and glass being breakable.
But I agree with what Jack implies, which I take to be that O2 in the
headspace is probably not a problem for bottled conditioned beers. Stay
relaxed with the hobby. Remember there isn't much O2 up there, yeast is
a good 'scavenger' of O2 whilst growing and it will probably use it all
up during the first few days of bottle conditioning anyway.

Unless, of course, someone else knows better :-)

Happy brewing
Geoff
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Geoff Cooper                   Phone:  +44 71 975 5178
Computing Services             Fax:    +44 71 975 5500
QMW                            e-mail: G.A.Cooper@uk.ac.qmw
Mile End Road
London, E1 4NS


------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1992 10:06:09 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott@draper.com>
Subject: RE^2- chillers

 RE^2: chillers
In #947, Mr de Armond says:

> That being said...  Mike's calculations suggest that a
> siphoning counter-flow cooler would need to use a length
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> over 30' [...]
> An immersion cooler will have a higher velocity, since the
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> water is being driven by the mains pressure, rather than a
> siphon.  Since heat transfer is proportional to velocity,
> the tubing lengths would presumably be shorter.

First, the siphoning in the counter-flow chiller, under standard operating
procedure, refers to the siphoning of the wort through the inner tube of the
chiller, not the outer tube through which tap water is driven.  So in both
cases the coolant is being driven by pressure.   Aside, with a long enough
siphon you can develop some pretty good pressure.  Ever empty a waterbed, on
the fourth floor, with a garden hose dropping all the way to the ground? :-)

Second, I beleive that the velocity in question is the velocity of the wort
relative to the coolant, or cooling element.  This leads me to beleive that the
wort being siphoned through the counter-flow would have a greater velocity than
the wort in which the immersion chiller is immerged.  And since the heat
transfer rate is proportional to velocity, the tubbing length of the immersion
chiller would have to be greater.  Of course if you stirred very vigorously,
the wort in the pot (immersion) may have a greater velocity.

I am the proud owner of a counter-flow chiller that works extremely well (read
fast), though I admit is a water hog.  I think that each type of chiller has
its own points.  I love the fact that mine works so fast, but on the other
hand, I don't like that it can't leave all that cold-break in the brew-pot,
instead of my primary, like an immersion chiller would.

While beer will give you that magical bliss, the more you drink the more you
 ...
_
Christopher K. McDermott       Internet:  mcdermott@draper.com
C.S. Draper Laboratory, Inc.   Voice:     (617) 258-2362
555 Technology Square          FAX:       (617) 258-1131
Cambridge, MA 02149 (USA)




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 14:25:48 GMT
From: jadams@sws.SINet.SLB.COM
Subject: Houston Hotspots

From:	JADAMS@SWS@PSI%HDSRTR@MRGATE@SNMRTR
To:	"homebrew@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com"@M_INTERNET@MRGATE@SNMRTR@SNMRTR

We may not have brewpubs (it's called the "Budweiser law") - but we do have
pubs that engage in "tap wars".  Frontrunners in the tap race are the Brewery
Tap in the oldest part of downtown historical district and LeVeau's in the
museum district.  They each have around 40 to 50 brews on tap.

I-10 & Hwy 6 is not exactly happenin' central.  The only good place I know of
in the vicinity is the Hops House at 2321-A Hwy 6 S., 496-0623.  The best
places are around Rice University:  the Gingerman, Munchies, Churchill's (at the
Red Lion Restaurant), McGonigle's Mucky Duck, Crown & Serpent, LeVeau's and
several others.  All have Sierra Nevada on tap - my minimum requirement.

Beer Central is at DeFalco's Home Wine and Beer Supplies, 5611 Morningside, in
the Rice Village, 1 mile south of Hwy 59, Greenbriar exit, 1 block west of
Greenbriar near University Blvd.  Greenbriar borders the campus.  Just walk
into DeFalco's and ask where you can get a decent beer in this town, and you'll
be deluged with suggestions.  Their number is 523-8154.  Hours are 10-6 M-F,
'til 8 Thurs, plus 10-4 Saturdays.

The Foam Rangers Homebrew Club meets the third Friday - 8/21 - it gets pretty
wild - there are often other club activities.  Call DeFalco's for info.
Tell 'em I (John Adams) said "Hi!".  I live near the Astrodome + that's the
week of the Republican Convention = I'm going diving in the Florida Keys.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:32:08 EDT
From: "John L. Isenhour" <isenhour@vax001.kenyon.edu>
Subject: Hop texts

All this talk about hops makes me wanna know more, heres whats currently
available 'in print'.

This may be redistributed as long as you don't have to pay for it.
and with copyright intact. (sorry CI$ readers).


Copyright (c) 1987 - 1991 R. R. BOWKER, All rights reserved.

Tomlan, Michael A. Tinged with Gold: Hop Culture in the United
     States. LC 90-46389. (Illus.). 272p. 02/1992. $35.00x. (ISBN
     0-8203-1313-0). University of Georgia Press.


Filmer, R. Hops & Hop-Picking. 1990. $30.00x. (ISBN 0-685-46678-7,
     Kent Cty Coun UK). State Mutual Book & Periodical Service,
     Limited.


Beach, David R. Homegrown Hops: An Illustrated How-to-Do-It
     Manual. LC 88-92165. (Illus.). 108p. (Orig.). 12/1988. Paper.
     $8.00. (ISBN 0-9621195-0-4). Beach, David R.


Lingren, Minnie. Hops Cultivation in Lewis County. 54p. Date not
     set. Repr. of 1981 ed. Paper. $7.50. (ISBN 0-685-30404-3).
     Fernwood Press.





 -
John 'de HopDuvel' -  isenhour@vax001.kenyon.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:39 PDT
From: BOB JONES <BJONES@NOVAX.llnl.gov>
Subject: Mashing from Micah Millspaw


Adding to the mash discusions. I suggested the use of the insulated
cooler type mash tun because it can be used with both single temp. infusion
mashes and upward step infusion mashes. It is a simple thing to increase
the mash temperature by adding more hot water at the time it is needed
for the step increase. The mash out can be conducted the same way. This
approach to mashing is a part of the gentle mash that can reduce the
effects of hot oxygen reactions. By way of explaination, I start the mash
fairly tight 20-24oz per lb. and add sufficiently hot water to make the
temperature steps I want without exceding 32oz per lb grain to water, for
a normal mash. For a first run only mash I use up to 48-50oz per lb.
Also no stirring as the hot water is either underlet or sprayed or both
at the same time. My mash\lauter tun is loaded with temp. probes and it
works very well. I have been mashing in this way for the past four years
and have many ribbons to show for it. Also it is easy and I'm lazy.

                               Micah Millspaw
                                              8/12/92

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 08:39:30 MDT
From: abirenbo@rigel.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: Banana esters (Paulaner hefe-weisse)


  I wish to emulate Paulaner hefe-weisse, which has a nice
banana/clove flavor when fresh.  I have some S. Delbreuckii
from wyeast bavarian wheat, but I want some banana too!
What would be a good yeast to use (ant ferment temp) for
that wonderful smooth paulaner banana flavor.

  There is a restauraunt nearby which serves paulaner on tap.
Is there a snowball's chance in hades that this beer has some
active yeast in it which i may want to try and culture?
I will be interested weather this is a fermentation yeast
or just a non-folocculant finishing yeast.

    aaron

p.s.  please move my abirenbo@isis.cs.du.edu account to
           abirenbo%rigel.cel.scg.hac.com@hac2arpa.hac.com

        thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 08:44:10 MDT
From: abirenbo@rigel.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: cider apples


  I just moved to a plavce which has an apple and a crab-apple
tree.  The apple tree should produce some nice, big, red
apples.  right now they're medium sized and dropping like flies.
They are actually edible, but quite tart.  Should I try to save
these (perhaps by freezing) for cider?  Also, can crab-apples
be pressed in your usual apple press (i plan to rent one).

  Is there some measure of acidity by which i can guage my addition
of immature and crab-apples.  I have no idea of what kind of apples
this tree produces, so the cider mixture percentages published
in my cider book are of no help to me.

    aaron

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 92 09:53:00 EST
From: "PAUL EDWARDS" <8260PE@INDINPLS.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: malt prices

In HBD #947, Brian asks about malt prices.  $0.95/lb in 55 lb quantities is
high.  Try a friendly micro-brewery if one is nearby.  One of our locals will
sell any of the grains they use to homebrewers in just about any quantity for
$0.50/lb.  That's OK if you want to use Briess lager malt and specialty grains,
but then sometimes beggars can't be choosers.  I know that at that price, the
micro is still making money.  Their only caveat is that you call ahead and make
sure it's not brew day or bottling day when you want to stop by, and I wouldn't
go in and ask for only one pound.  The folks in our club who take advantage of
this deal usually coordinate their purchase and buy in full sack quantities.
This place will even run the grain thru their roller mill for a small fee. (a
couple of bucks per sack)  I've heard that many micro's will do this as long as
you don't interrupt them when they're busy.  You can still get your specialty
grains from your local HB, so as not to p*ss them off.

One the *really* high side, there's a local shop (left over from the Wine-Art
days) which gets a lot of first-time homebrewers/winemakers.  This shop asks
$3.95 for a one-pound bag of pale malt!  They buy it pre-packaged from Wines,
Inc.  The other shop in town is at least smart enough to buy in bulk (or go in
with the micro on pallet loads) and break stuff down into 1, 5, and 10 lb bags,
and charges a reasonable price.  Guess who gets the repeat business??

  -- Paul


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 08:54:26 MDT
From: abirenbo@rigel.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: CO Hops


  I have been trying, without luck, to find a COLORADO brewer
who will let me take a few hop cuttings.  so, i make one final
empassioned plea over HBD (r.c.b. producen no replies)

   If you are near the denver area, and have some hops which
grow well in our climate, I would like to be able to take a
few cuttings.  please.  i will not harm your plants in any way.
All i should need is a leaf or two... or perhaps the tip of
new growth on a vine.... only a couple of cm worth.  you
won't get any yield from new growth from now this year anyway.

   thanks in advance,


             aaron

p.s.  I plan to cultivate, and propigate the cuttings all winter,
so i have a forest of little hop chutes to plant next spring.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 08:20:13 -0700
From: mcnally@wsl.dec.com
Subject: wheat allergies


I don't know much about wheat allergies, but I do know about beer.
The turbidity in a hefeweizen is from yeast, not wheat; both hefe
and klar beers are filtered.  I would predict that if one causes an
allergic reaction, so will the other (unless the B vitamins in the
yeast counteract the allergy).

Most beer doesn't have wheat in it anyway, so a doctor who advises
against "most beer" is not beer-aware.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally@wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 11:30:44 -0400
From: blosskf@ttown.apci.com (Karl F. Bloss)
Subject: Help for a novice

Wow! You guys are really advanced.  I've just browsed through two issues
of Homebrew and I'm lost.  I need some advice for a total novice (don't
laugh, you have to start somewhere)?

My roommate and I were given one of these homebrew kits, so we gave it
a whirl.  Of course, we didn't know the importance of proper sanitation and
the first batch was contaminated ("This is the best wine I've had in a long
time").  For the next, we properly sanitized a bottled-water carbuoy and
made the second kit with the indicated amount of sugar.  Sure enough, the
beer was good, but had a 'caramelly' flavor.  So a friend told us to use
no sugar and double malt extract.  This gave great results with a rich,
lager-style beer.  Our friends were baffled by the Old Milwaukee labels
and Tab caps ("I got 'em 'cause they were cheap.").

Any suggestions why this works with the double malt?  Any other suggestions?

Thanks!





***********************************************************************
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***********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 11:14:23 CDT
From: bliss@csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: back to extract


rfozard@sword.eng.pyramid.com (Bob Fozard) writes:
> I'm not sure where I've seen this (maybe it was here), but is it true
> that much of the hot-break has already been precipitated out of extract
> syrup?  If this is the case, I would expect that the 60+ minute boils
> I've done in the past did more damage to the wort (in the way of
> carmelization) than good.  Perhaps this also has the effect of driving
> off much of the malt aroma that someone recently mentioned seems to be
> missing from extract brews.  If using hopped extract, perhaps just a
> 10-15  minute "sanitation" boil with perhaps the addition of
> flavor/aroma hops would be the better way to go.  If using un-hopped
> extract, we have the option of using pellets and doing a slightly
> longer boil (30-40 minutes for pellets??), or using the liquid hop
> concentrates that don't require boiling (isomerized??).  Comments
> and/or experiences with this are requested.

A month ago I did my first all-extract/no-mash brew since I switched
to all-grain/mostly grain a year ago.  (Well, there was the brewferm
lambic kriek kit batch, but that doesn't count).  Anyway, I boiled the
full amount vigirously for an hour before adding any hops, and then
added fuggles/goldings over the next hour.  I cooled with an immersion
wort-chiller, and got a good 1.5" of hot break in the bottom of the
carboy, the same I usually get with all-grain.

> I've tasted some pretty darn good extract brews, but none of _my_
> previous extract batches were close to what I've been able to produce
> with all-grain.  Probably one of my problems was with oxidation.
> Typically, an extract brewer will mix the hot wort with some cold water
> to get it to 5-gallons of pitching temp. wort.  I feel that splashing
> the hot wort into a carboy of cold water might lead to unwanted
> oxidation.  This time I will do a full-volume boil and use my immersion
> chiller, but I wonder about the boil time and carmelization.  Could
> this be a source (or one of them) of that extract "twang" that is
> present in some extract batches.  It clearly isn't always there, at
> least not by my tongue, but what causes it when it is?

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the oxidation comment...

Anyway, the batch had a 4 lb edme strong ale kit, 4 lb of unhopped
amber extract, and 2 lbs of lt. brown sugar in it.  hops were:
1 oz goldingss leaf (old), 1 oz fuggle leaf (old), 1 oz fuggle
pellets (fresh), about 1/3 of each at 60, 40, & 20 min.
I also added 1/2 tsp of netmeg at the finish, and 1/2 tsp irish moss.
Edme ale yeat (wyeast belgian ale starter went bad, & I coldn't find
the packet of whitbread ale yeast I thought I had).  OG 1.071, FG 1.013.
I siphoned off the hot break into another carboy like I usually do,
then aereated and pitched.  I left it in the primary for 3 weeks,
at room temp (80F+).  I bottled with 140 g corn sugar, and another
re-hydrated packet of edme ale yeast, since the alcohol content is
pretty high.

I tasted it last night after a week in the bottle, and it seems
to have developed a decent amount of carbonation already.
It's got an alcohol nose to it, plenty of body, balanced by more
than enough fuggly flavor, which blends into the nutmeg/brown sugar
(the former is fading rapidly) sweetness, which fades again into hoppiness,
leaving a clean palate.  Lets see, that's 5 different sensations, at
different times, and I'm quite pleased.  Once you taste it, you have
to drink more - I only took sips, but I never sat the glass down until
it was empty!  A (non-homebrewing) friend came over, I poured him a glass,
and it too was empty before it touched the table.  Anyway, it's better
than many (but certainly not all) of my all-grain batches.

I had expected a FG in the 1.025 range, and consequently overhopped.
(The year old hops were quite a bit fresher than I thought, since
they were vacuum-packed.)  Obviously, I didn't caramelize it
much in the boil, or the FG would be higher than 1.013.
Aging should mellow it, and do it good.

If you do a full boil, you don't have to worry as much about
caramelization.  I seem to remember from Miller that 2.5 gal of
1.100 wort will caramelize 4X as much as 5 gal 1.050 wort, and
will be twice as caramelized when diluted to 5 gal.

Boil the heck out of it...

bb


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 09:57:11 PDT
From: jeg@sangabriel.desktalk.com (John E. Greene)
Subject: Re: The Good Ol' Days...


>> Sigh.  It's times like these that make me wish for the good ol' days
>> in the HBD when the members of this forum were only interested in open
>> minded, friendly discussions of the issues; when we were all genuinely
>> concerned about helping each other in their quest for the world's
>> perfect beer.  Remember when people used to commend us for being the
>> best-behaved bunch on the net?  Remember when?

> Sounds like a real bore.  I think the "problem" is that people are starting
> to think for themselves instead of simply repeating the same tired old lines
> from popular books.

Actually it wasn't a bore at all and there wasn't much repeating of the same
old tired lines from popular books.  This was a great forum for discussing
the various techniques people have discovered that work better or somehow
disproved what was printed in the books.  Everyone would try the changes and
report back what they thought and how it went.  It was a very constructive
process.  The 'experts' on the list played more of a mentor role offering what
they knew and what they experienced to be taken at face value.  It was up
to the reader to decide if they would like to take the advice or try something
that better fit their way of brewing.

Then there were the many humorous brewing accounts frequently posted by people
such as Florian Bell.  Florian has his own way of doing things and it works
for him.  Unfortunately Florian doesn't post much any more and much of that
'Entertaining' flavor of the digest has long since disappeared, being
replaced by the more forceful 'technical' brewers who seemed to have this
unrelenting drive to *make* you understand why they are *right* and others are
*wrong*.

I think the "problem" is that people think that everyone brews for the same
reason. They can't imagine anyone not having the same motivation for
brewing.  Some people brew to accurately reproduce specific styles, some
people brew to make a beer they enjoy drinking, some people brew because
they like the brewing process.  Each of these people will have a different
way that is right for them or works for them. Now, it seems, that one has to
risk public ridicule if they post their experiences even though it may not
be 'technically' correct.  I, like many, feel it's not worth it.  I get
enough of that crap at work and my brewing is intended to help me relax from
that.

-
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John E. Greene             Everyone needs something to believe in.  I believe
Sr. Staff Engineer         I'll have another homebrew!
Desktalk Systems Inc.      uucp: ..uunet!desktalk!jeg
(310) 323-5998             internet:  jeg@desktalk.desktalk.com

------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 92 12:04:54 CDT
From: dbehm <DBEHM@UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Sassafras

Sassafrs can be found growing wild in the woods in N. Ala. I have pulled
roots on several occasions. I don't know how many roots you would have to boil
to get enough flavoring for a batch of root beer. Perhaps an old cookbook
could tell you, maybe under sassperilla(?).
Look in the Audubon Guide to North American Trees p.451 for a description.
 he range  is "extreme S. Ontario east to SW Maine, south to central Fl,
west to E. Texas, andnorth to central Michigan; up to 500 in the
Southen Appalachians." In other word almost the entire E. U.S.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 13:55:12 EDT
From: neilm@juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Neil Mager )
Subject: Re: SmartBrewers, Hydrometers, Flames, and Wheat beer.


Jack Schmidling writes:
>
>  >From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU>
>
>  >Sigh.  It's times like these that make me wish for the good ol' days
>  in the HBD when the members of this forum were only interested in open
>  minded, friendly discussions of the issues; when we were all genuinely
>  concerned about helping each other in their quest for the world's
>  perfect beer.  Remember when people used to commend us for being the
>  best-behaved bunch on the net?  Remember when?
>
>  Sounds like a real bore.  I think the "problem" is that people are starting
>  to think for themselves instead of simply repeating the same tired old lines

   No, it sounds like the forum for discussion about home brewing
   topics, that it is supposed to be. People thinking for
   themselves will only add new or different perspectives to the
   discussion. They won't add flames. There is no reason to attack
   someone personally because of their view on a particular
   topic. After all, this is a home brewing forum, not a
   presidential election :-).


    On to more important topics:

   I brewed a wheat beer which should be done aging this
   weekend. This week, four bottles decided to break. To prime, I used
   one gallon of sweet wort that I drew off before pitching. The other
   bottles seem fine so I don't think I overcarbonated (over
   primed?) and the gravity levels were right on target. I guess
   its time to be a little more selective about the bottles I use for bottling.
   The ones that broke tended to be a little thinner than most of
   the others.

   Wheat beer tends to have more of a head than most other beers.
   Whats the cause of this? Do these beers have a higher CO2
   content causing the head (and breaking bottles)? Julius Echter
   bottles are pretty heavy - probably a good reason for that!


   Saturday night, Lobster, Steamers, & fresh Wheat beer... can't wait.


===============================================================================
Neil Mager
MIT Lincoln Labs            Lexington, MA
  Weather Radar - Group 43

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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 09:08 CDT
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: VITIMIN C and sundries


 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling

 >From: Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS@CHE.UTAH.EDU>
 >Subject: Ascorbic acid

 >I can vaguely remember, way back when, a discussion in this forum regarding
 the addition of ascorbic acid (also known as vitamin C) to a brew for the
 purpose of preventing oxidation.  Is this done at bottling time?  In what
 quantities?  I s'pose one could add food grade vitamin C available at any
 pharmacy or grocery store, right?

 Unless someone else wants to take credit, I believe I started the discussion
 when I first announced my video.  The guy in the brew shop featured in it
 claims that a tsp of Vitimin C will cure oxydation problems.  He also claims
 that oxidation causes a cidery taste in the beer which seems an opinion
 unique to him so that may be a clue to the validity of the Vitimin C cure.

 >From: dipalma@banshee.sw.stratus.com (James Dipalma)
 >Subject: yeast culturing

 > As part of the never-ending quest for improvement of my beer,
 I've decided to try my hand at yeast culturing.....I have located a source
 for glass petri dishes, pipettes, slides, etc. What other equipment will I
 need?  If a micro$cope is needed, what power of magnification?

 I have published (and emailed to you) an article on yeast culturing for
 beginners.  It is a very simple and easy to understand method that requires
 an absolute minimum abount of equipment and knowledge.   There is no EASYEAST
 here, just trying to pass on what I learned the hard way.

 If anyone else would like a copy, email will get you one.

 >From: korz@ihpubj.att.com Subject: Re: Cider
 >>Secondly, one can always add sugar to adjust the sweetness after
 fermenting.

 >If mean adding sugar at bottling, this implies that you've somehow killed or
 filtered out the yeast or else the yeast will go at the new sugar.

 I was referring to the standard practice of nursing along a batch of wine to
 get the maximum alcohol out of it consistant with the type of yeast used.
 The sugar is added during the late stage of fermentation.  If all the sugar
 is added at the beginning, it can OD the yeast and stick or worse yet if you
 miscalculate, the yeast dies and the wine is too sweet.

 The practice is to start with a gravity that you know will ferment out and
 then add sugar in small increments each time fermentation ceases until the
 desired degree of dryness is achieved.  This can take several months but it
 is the time tested way of doing it.

 >From: bryan@tekgen.bv.tek.com
 >Subject: Flurry of "break" material.

  > All this talk about cold break material got me to thinking about
 something. I do (90%) full wort boils in a 10 gallon brewpot and use a
 counterflow chiller.

 You might explain what that 90% means.

 >The wort coming out of the chiller is a murky brown color, (for a pale ale).

 I know the pros and cons of immersion vs counterflow have been beaten to
 death but I can't resist pointing out that the wort coming out of the kettle
 after immersion chilling is crystal clear.  I just do not understand why
 anyone wants all that yuck in the fermenter or the bother of letting it
 settle and racking again.

 >From: Glenn Anderson <glenn.anderson@canrem.com Subject: 2 pot boils

 >I'm wondering what adjustment would be required to my hop rate, if
 any, when using two pots to boil 5 gallons instead of one.  Assuming that I
 boil 2.5 gallons in each pot and hop only one of the pots......

 I think you are sadly mistaken if you think the beer in the kettle without
 the hops has been properly boiled.  You might as well not boil it at all.
 The correct approach is to use equal amounts of hops in each kettle.

 >From: Jay Hersh <hersh@expo.lcs.mit.edu>

 >> Thirdly, one usually will add lots of sugar to make a higher alcohol apple
 >> wine and ale yeast would produce an undrinkably sweet wine.

 >I'm not sure what you're saying here.

 If one simply added lots of sugar at the beginning,  the ale yeast could quit
 fermenting long before the sugar was fermented and long before a wine yeast
 would quit.

 > I have used Red Star Champagne, Red Star Epernay, and Whitbread Ale yeasts
 in Ciders.

 As a point of interest, I pure culture RS Champaign a few weeks ago for my
 next batch of wine and both petri dishes turned up mould colonies.  One dish
 was never opened after inocculation as a control and the other was the one
 transferred to the slants.  Both had the same species of mould.

 My next batch should be interesting.  I don't have enough of anything but
 apples to make 5 gallons so I picked the mullberries and elderberries as they
 ripened and froze them.  Looks like the grapes and apples will be ripe about
 the same time.  I also found out that elderberries need to be dried before
 use. Fresh, they are tasteless but dried, are very fruity.

 > I have always had to fortify them somewhat so that they did not ferment out
 too completely, as the apple sugars are highly fermentable, though the Ale
 yeast will tend to quit earlier than the Champagne yeast.

 That is one way to do it but adding sugar and letting it ferment seems more
 natural but that is a moot point.

 >I personally do not like sweetening after fermentation, and would rather
 choose the right yeast and level of fortification so that the final
 product ends at a desirable gravity.

 I don't consider fermentation over till bottling time but more importantly
 your method sounds too much like Gallo.  And unless you get real lucky, you
 can easily miss the mark.

 >From: oconnor@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (donald oconnor)
 >Subject: oring challenge

 >here's the experiment.  i have what i think most would call a
 light lager (9 lbs vienna malt and some saaz hops) that's been
 sitting in a used keg for about 5 weeks now.  it was the first
 time i had used the keg and i did nothing special at all to clean
 either the keg or orings.  i.e., i simply rinsed the soda out with\
 warm water........

 Perhaps the key here is the word "soda".  The manufacturers will be the first
 to tell you that not all sodas are equal.  My bad experience was with Coke.
 As I said before, the first batch in a keg with casually cleaned oring was
 undrinkable (but I drank it anyway:).  I have not noticed the coke taste
 since but the orings in all my kegs still smell like Coke not beer.

 js


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 14:37:44 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh@expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Yeast Nutrient



Umm, this may be a silly half baked idea, but I was under the
impression that many commercial yeast nutrients are in fact
made from yeast.

Can any professional biologist types comment on the accuracy
of this idea??

	JaH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 12:41:48 PDT
From: sami@scic.intel.com (Sam Israelit)
Subject: Head Space, etc . . .

In HBD #947, Jack Schmidling writes that you could bottle leaving no head
space. This is 180 degrees out of phase with what more than 20 other people
have told me. They said that you have to have a minimum of one half-inch of
space at the top or the bottle won't properly carbonate. I've never thought
to ignore this advice so I don't know what happens if you fill it to the
brim. Considering that the pro breweries do this, I'll run with the pack on
this one.

Also Jack, you state that maybe people are starting to think for themselves
here and that is what is causing the recent flame-outs. Well thinking for
yourself and being an asshole are entirely independent characteristics. And
I'm not referring to you with that statement, but with a few of the others
recently posted. As a relative novice (I've only been at this for about 25
batches), I have learned a great deal through the more experienced brewers
debating the different aspects of brewing. Challenging the techniques of
others helps everyone to understand the underlying art. No one is saying
that we can't think for ourselves, but rather that we should keep it to a
constructive confrontation.

And finally, the peach weissen turned out to be pretty tasty. I used 12 lbs
of California white peaches and I should probably have only used 9. It does
have that banana flavor to it. What causes that? Is it from fermenting it
at too high a temperature? Will it mellow out over time? Anyway, the next
attempt is an all-grain stout (my first all-grain). Based on the
discussions I expect it too be fun.

Sam Israelit (formerly sami@scic.intel.com, now samis@athena.mit.edu)
Engineer, Businessman, . . . Brewer
Portland, OR


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 14:12 MTS
From: Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS@CHE.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Has no one used ascorbic acid?

A couple of days ago, I posted an article requesting information about
ascorbic acid:

>I can vaguely remember, way back when, a discussion in this forum regarding
>the addition of ascorbic acid (also known as vitamin C) to a brew for the
>purpose of preventing oxidation.  Is this done at bottling time?  In what
>quantities?  I s'pose one could add food grade vitamin C available at any
>pharmacy or grocery store, right?
>
>The reason that I'm interested is that I have a batch of mead that's ready
>for bottling.  Actually, it's an apple mead (cyser), and it was probably
>ready 4 months ago!  I'm really getting paranoid about oxidation; I under-
>stand that meads are more succeptible to oxidation than beers.  I have no
>experience with meads; this is my first.  I'd really be interested to hear
>from anyone who's added a.a. to a mead before, and especially about
>deleterious flavor effects.

I received one reply, from Brian Smithey    smithey@rmtc.Central.Sun.COM

>I have no experience using ascorbic acid to prevent oxidation, but
>thought I'd pass on my plan.  I have a strong mead that's been
>fermenting for a little over 3 months now (my first mead too), and
>after that much time I want to be very careful with it.  I'm also
>a bit concerned about oxidation, especially since I expect the mead
>to take a year or two to develop and mature.  I'm planning on using
>the new oxygen scavenging SmartCaps on my mead, and also on a six-pack
>or so of each batch of beer that I brew from now on, and keep that
>six-pack for "competition bottles".

This seems like sound advice to me.  Certainly, SmartCaps should be able to
prevent, or greatly reduce, aborption into my mead of oxygen in the
headspeace.  But, I am also concerned with oxidation that can occur during
racking and bottling.  (If I ever get a kegging setup, I won't have this
problem anymore ;-)

It's just occurred to me that the kinetics of the oxidation reaction might
be slow so that dissolved oxygen could come out of solution as head-space
O2 is absorbed by SmartCaps.  Any comments on that?

Assuming that the kinetics are not MUCH slower than the aborbtion on the
caps, I am back to my original question:  Has anyone used ascorbic acid in
a mead?  I am wondering about the effectiveness, procedures, and side
effects.

Thanks for any advice,  (and thanks to Rob for maintaining this forum)
Chuck

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 14:38:57 CDT
From: johnf@persoft.com (John Freeborg)
Subject: Alt or Kolsch Yeast


I've recently had a few Kolsch beers and an Alt beer and have really
enjoyed the style.  From what I can gleam from books and other brewers,
the yeast is a key element in a good Kolsch.  Does anybody know where to
get a good culture of authentic Kolsch or Alt yeast?  Is there any
brands that I might be able to get it from the bottle dregs?

Thanks!
   - John

-
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Freeborg          Software Engineer         Persoft
johnf@persoft.com                                465 Science Dr.
608-273-6000                                     Madison, WI 53711

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 15:47:50 PDT
From: rstya@mowgli.mda.ca (Roy Styan)
Subject: modified V.S. under modified malts

I've reciently started using british two row pale malt grains imported from
England, hence have dispensed with the protien rest during the mash (and
gosh, life IS alot easier)!  The beers have been working out just fine, but
I've noticed that the primary fermentation takes about twice as long as
it did before.  Hmmmm...  Could this be because there isn't quite as many
protiens in the wort as there would be using an undermodified malt with a
protien rest?  How will this slower fermentation affect the taste of the
beer (my experiments have not been controlled enough for me to derermine this
yet)?

Any thoughts y'all have on this subject would be appreciated.  Thanks,
Roy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 9:18:04 PDT
From: tahoma!dgs1300@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Don Scheidt)
Subject: Explosions and flames

In Hombrew #946, Stuart Siegler asks:
>Subject: What's the deal?
>
>What's the deal?
>
>As a new homebrewer, I need this net.  It is an invaluable source
>of information.  The constant bickering that seems to be going on
>is a real turn off for a new-b, like myself.  What am I to do if
>I have a real problem, like exploding bottles? (I am having this
>problem, if anyone wants to help.)  I certainly wont post a question
>for fear of someone's retaliation or offending someone -- quite frankly
>it scares the post-beer-product out of me.
>
>(Where did the term 'Flame' come from, anyway? )
>
>Might I suggest that attacks of this nature be sent to the person who
>offended you.  (You know, if someone ignores your e-mail, they are
>going to ignore the posting here.  I, on the other hand, don't know
>enough to.)
>
>I really thought that Home Brewing's most important rule was
>                    Relax. Dont Worry.
>(OK, maybe it really is 'Sanitize', but I'm sure Relax is high up
>in the rules).

Flaming refers to the act of setting fire to somebody's words, and is
rather usenet-ese in its usage, although it is reaching wider acceptance
("my supervisor was really annoyed and sent me flame mail").  Yep, I'm
finding that certain individuals get really boring when all they do is
whine and criticise, unless they somehow manage to impart some useful
knowledge in the whining and criticism.  Such are the pitfalls of usenet
and many e-mail lists.  Ignore it; think of 'em as so many wrong numbers,
when the misdialing idiot blames you for his/her mistake. :-)  It would
also be really useful if the flamers took it to e-mail... and maybe we
could stand less adjectives like 'stupid', 'lame', and such.  A few more
fresh lupulins, that's what we could *all* use, to put the 'lax' back in
relax!

On to the more important (and not stupid!) question of exploding bottles.
I have been brewing for about a year, and have never had an explosion
(well, except for the bottle that broke when I dropped it - but I think the
concrete floor may have helped that along!).  Non-impact bottle explosions
seem to have two causes - infected bottlings and overpriming.  Infected
bottling usually means that the bottles were insufficiently sanitised, or
that the beer may have been infected going in.  This is not as common a
reason as overpriming, as most homebrewers (you included) seem to under-
stand that keeping it reasonably clean is important and fundamental.  So
let's see if you're overpriming.

What priming method are you using?  If you're adding a measured dosage of
sugar to each bottle, you're asking for trouble.  Much better is to prepare
a priming solution - a cup of dry malt extract dissolved in a pint of
boiling water, and added to the 5-gallon batch in a priming bucket, will
produce a slow, but steady and non-exploding carbonisation.  Other priming
agents - 3/4 cup of corn sugar, or a mixture of 1/4 cup of fruit syrup plus
2/3 cup DME, all dissolved in one pint of water - will work well too, with
the fruit syrup contributing something unique to the flavour profile; it
sure worked well with a raspberry wheat and a raspberry amber ale!

Relax, don't worry, and make sure you don't get hurt by the exploding
bottles!  Better luck next time.
- --
Don                             | Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate
dgs1300@tahoma                  | things.
 ..!uunet!bcstec!tahoma!dgs1300 |       -- Vice President Dan Quayle

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #948, 08/14/92
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