HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cyberman@toz.buffalo.ny.us (Cyberman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: splitting the group (
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:31:13 GMT
X-Maildoor: WaflineMail 1.00r


     -=> Bjoern Stabell spoke of "Re: splitting the group (" <=-
    To All at 08-20-92  18:12
 BS> My side note:  I think all this discussing for and against HW related
 BS> issues in rec.games.programmer really should be in the Call For
 BS> Discussion part of a new newsgroup - comp.sys.ibm.programmer.hardware
 BS> (or something).

Actually I think your being a bit overbearing.  You must realize
that not everyone has access to ALL groups.  I think this is
displaying the typical "keep out of my territory" thinking that
is prevalent in this group.

 BS> Second side note:  comp.sys.ibm.* contains half as many groups as
 BS> comp.sys.amiga.*.  Two years ago (approx.) the Amiga society
 BS> reorganized their newsgroup hierarchy - the result was very good. 
 BS> Maybe, if you PC users cannot find your newsgroups, it is time for you
 BS> to do the same? The information flow on News increases steadily, with
 BS> it comes the need for better organization / more fractioning.  I agree
This is inpertenent complain somewhere else.

 BS> that you cannot subdivide a newsgroup endlessly, but issues that are
 BS> not related should be given their own newsgroup (and in my opinion "VGA
 BS> programming on PCs" and "maze algorithms" would be better off in
 BS> different newsgroups).
Not really they should be put into a FAQ.  Just because poeple
are discussing something you don't want to read doesn't mean you
have to play censor.  Which is by the way what you are doing,
Censorship.  I think this problem may be one of culture as well,
but that would not be appropriate to this discussion.

 BS> Come on, like grown up kids, you have to leave your parents. :)
From these words, I see this is your own personal problem, and
has relatively little to do with reality.

        Stephen Cyberman@Toz.Buffalo.NY.US
        Scripted at Fri  08-21-1992  11:27:07

... Shhhh! Listen to the bitstreams . . .
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
From: chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: We need more VGA tricks...
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:37:12 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

I was afraid the flame wars fires might be going out...
 Hee, hee

--
Oh I loves to eat them mousies
Them mousies I loves to eat
I bites off they little heads
And nibbles on they little feet
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: Ross Ridge <ross@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: VGA, Retraces, and DMA
Organization: ZOOiD BBS
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 11:50:21 GMT

> Enough!!!  This is rec.games.programmer, if you want to get into technical
> discusions about VGA cards, DMA or IRQs for IBM PC's then take it to
> comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware or comp.os.msdos.programmer.  99% of the babble
> here lately has nothing to do with game programming anymore, it's just
> stupid questions and stupid answers about PC hardware.

sl8nl@cc.usu.edu writes:
>** FLAME ON **
>OK, buddy, you tell us what you want in here.  Lessee, if we eliminate
>VGA cards...eliminated...IRQs...eliminated...DMA...eliminiated...
>there would be no games as they exist today!!!  If your beliefs are
>such that you can tell somebody program a split-screen, and they automatically
>know how to do it, then you are wrong!!!!  What about scaling, do you
>know how to scale?  Could you program it instantly for us?  You tell me
>how, without an IRQ or DMA, a computer is supposed to make a single beep of
>music?
>
>We're here to learn, and there has been a heck of a lot of learning lately.
>Different code has been posted to do things dealing with games, ideas have
>been introduced that have been expanded into a wide range of subjects, 
>usually answering the original question better than any book can.

IBM PC specific stuff doesn't belong here.  There are much better place
to asking these questions, and you'll get much better answers.  All it's
generated here is bunch of misinformation from people like you who know
a bit but not enough about what they're talking about.  Worse, it's
stifiling real discussion about real game programming issues.

>Theory is nice, it gives you something to think about.  But as I said in
>one of my earlier posts about perspective mapping, "Use Bresenham to draw
>a line in memory and then map each row and column of pixels to this line."
>That's theory...that's an answer to a question that could be implemented
>on any machine, if anyone knew what I was talking about.  Then code
>was posted--for an IBM, but needless to say, it could be easily converted
>to Amiga or Mac or Atari ST.

That's fine.  But your stupid Mode Y questions don't belong here.  It's not
a game programming question, it's a VGA hardware question.  It no more
belongs here than questions about while loops or recursive subroutines.

>The point is, while some discussions _have_ gone overboard, they have taught
>a great deal.  I may be tired of reading IRQ messages right now, but that's
>the breaks, and the people involved are learning more and more about how
>the computer really works so they can create the best games.

If you want to learn more about your IBM PC computer so you can programme
games, or anything then read comp.os.msdos.programmer, or 
comp.ibm.pc.sys.hardware, or any of the other IBM PC related newsgroups.

							Ross Ridge

-- 
Ross Ridge - The Great HTMU					     l/	 //
								    [OO][oo]
ross@zooid.guild.org						    /()\/()/
uunet.ca!zooid!ross						     db	 //
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: wyman@rtsg.mot.com (Mark S. Wyman)
Subject: Re: IBM Based Freakouts not Justified.
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:53:31 GMT

sl859@cc.usu.edu writes:

stuff deleted
.
.
.
>I am interested in this.  We (Josh and some others) were building a game
>to have a computer player, and eventually scrapped that entire aspect, because
>it seemed so difficult, at the time.  Since then I have encountered a few 
>"classic techniques" and have had some ideas on how to handle this.  We have 
>some ideas from playing StarControl on the Amiga, but have not implemented 
>them yet.  (Another Josh is doing that.)  I would be interested in hearing 
>some discussion on the different view points.  
Hear Hear...I agree.  Matter of fact.  Lets try to get another computer
opponent AI discussion going.
Mark Wyman
From: cyberman@toz.buffalo.ny.us (Cyberman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: bitmaps
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:41:56 GMT
X-Maildoor: WaflineMail 1.00r


     -=> Greg Alt spoke of "Re: bitmaps" <=-
    To All at 08-12-92  08:27
 GA> It sounds like you are claiming that it is possible to do real-time 
 GA> sprite rotations without multiplies.
it is!
here is the "pseudo" code.
BMP image[N][X] { image is X columns by N lines }
vectors[N]      { N vectors [x1,y1 to x2,y2] }

setvectors(X,Y,W,H,vectors);    { Sets vectors for laying out BMP }
rotate_vector_end_points(X,Y,13/180*pi); {rotate endpoints in radians}
for I = 1 to N do
    { using line algorythm plot pixels of each raster scan along
        line drawn }
    stroke(image[N],vectors[N]); 

 GA> I don't believe that is possible on a PC (even a 386), but I would
 GA> love to be proven wrong.

It is possible, using a standard line draw algorythm [whose name
eludes me right now].

 GA> I'm planning on doing some sprite rotation stuff for a game, and my
 GA> plan was to pre-compute it all which would be fast but take tons of
 GA> space. 

YEP that would the speed of the above technique is fast but not
as fast as computing rotations first then doing it.  However the
overhead for doing that is ludicris.  This technique should be
fast enough even for a XT.  Hmmm maybe I should try it :) hehehe

        Stephen Cyberman@Toz.Buffalo.NY.US
        Scripted at Thu  08-13-1992  17:06:29

... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
From: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: VGA, Retraces, and DMA
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:15:39 GMT
Reply-To: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Richardson, TX

MoonMan writes:
>
> Graphics are VITALLY important to a game - a perfectly good game
> can be easily wrecked by badly drawn or badly programmed graphics. 

Yes, but I was trying to say that you don't almost always don't need
to ultimate cutting edge of graphics technology.  Games are very often
advertised as having "high speed texture mapping" or "three layer
scrolling" or other fancy effects.  It is a mistake to think that
every game must represent a technological advancement.

And I'll disagree with you a bit.  I have *never* played a game which
was wrecked by badly drawn graphics.  It's the overall "funness" and
gameplay which matter.  I still play Millipede on my Atari 2600
because it's challenging and a lot of fun.  Never mind that the
mushrooms are actually blocks and that there is some flicker.

[I'm glad somebody agrees with me about Wolfenstein 3-D. I
have come to the conclusion that it's a computer junkie's game:  if
you aren't knowledgable enough to realize that the graphics are
impressive then you probably won't enjoy playing.]

--
James Hague   
exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
From: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: Computer-Controlled Players (New, More Appr
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:34:07 GMT
Reply-To: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Richardson, TX

Khan writes:
>
>I read an article in an old Byte (April 1980 I believe) written by a
>couple of the authors of Zork, talking about the implementation of the
>game. The article says that basically the thief is just a formula: the
>chances of him attacking are a certain percentage, lower if you are
>unarmed; the chances that he will filch an item vary depending on how
>valuable the item is, and so forth. It doesn't seem as though there's a
>whole lot to it, but I'm interested in what other techniques there are
>to implement computer opponents.

I've found that for "most" games (excluding pure strategy games), you
can get by with a "fake" computer opponent.  That is, the computer doesn't
use sophisticated AI routines, but rather uses only a few simple rules with
a little randomness thrown in.  You can make the computer act more
aggressively by tweaking a few values.

[Aside:  the whole concept of "faking it" it central to game programming.
Do you think the track in Pole Position is really make up of splines?
Or that every star in Star Raiders really "exists" in the game universe?]

The more complex a method used, unless you go full out with an exhaustive
search tree (not possible for many games), the higher the chances of
there being holes in the computer's strategy, IMO.  Unless you plan to devote
most of your time devloping AI algorithms it is better to go with something
simple and use speed, number (i.e. multiple attackers at once), and randomness
to overload the player.

--
James Hague   
exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: bjoerns@stud.cs.uit.no (Bjoern Stabell)
Subject: Re: inappropriate postings [was Re: VGA, Retraces, and DMA]
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 00:52:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.185557.2113@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
|> In article <62430018@acf3.NYU.EDU> reznick@acf3.NYU.EDU (Daniel Reznick) writes:
|> 
|> >I
|> >have nothing against discussions on non MS-DOS platforms, but the fact
|> >of the matter is, NO ONE has tried to start any.
|> 
|> That's because most non-MSDOS people have stopped reading the group.
|> How about putting 'PC' in the subject of all PC-harware-specific posts
|> so we can mass-kill them?

I sure wouldn't mind that.  Perhaps the time has come to split the group,
(but into what? :)  or at least to define more clearly what is appropriate.
IMHO HW specific issues don't belong here - algorithms, techniques etc. for
creating games do.  A quick 'grep pc' (a little modified) on my .newsrc file
reveals:

comp.ibm.pc.hardware! 1-4
comp.sys.ibm.pc! 1-13285
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games! 1-46
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware! 1-21653
comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc! 1-18011
comp.sys.ibm.pc.programmer! 1-2129
comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard! 1-14

(Strange, there's no comp.sys.ibm.pc.programmer.games.hardware.vga :)


Kind regards,
-- 
                                                  Bjoern Stabell
                                                  University of Tromsoe
                                                  (+47) 83 44 053 / 83 75 164
                                                  bjoerns@staff.cs.uit.no
From: tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: Split screen mode: Why? (was Re: 320x400 question)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:01:01 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


In article <1992Aug11.205954.6321@wam.umd.edu> dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) writes:
>bytor@milton.u.washington.edu writes:
>
>>This also allows for the double buffered area to be flipped faster,
>>since less of it will need to be displayed.
>
>But that displaying is done by the shifter hardware and monitor, so why
>would split screen mode make it faster?

I think what ByTor means is that the flipped portions are smaller, and
can be drawn faster (and thus flipped at a faster rate). You're right in
that it takes the same amount of time to flip a screen, no matter how
many scan lines the flipped portion covers. In all cases it's simply a
CPU write to a register which tells the VGA card where to begin fetching
bytes from the video buffer.
From: ron@zooid.guild.org (Secret Mud)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: VGA, Retraces, and DMA
Date: 16 Aug 92 14:23:34 GMT

From: n9046319@rowlf.cc.wwu.edu (Jeremy Corley)
>ron@zooid.guild.org (Secret Mud) writes:
>>Wolfenstein 3D is one of the best examples of the fact that while some people
>>have remarkable skill at writing code and doing graphics, the skill of writing
>>a game is something else that they don't always have.
>
>>A wonderful bit of programming, wrapped around a very simple game--lifted from
>>the original.
>
>> - Ron Sharp.
>
>	I hole-heartedly agree.  I have an internship at a place that writes video
>games and we review _lots_ of games to keep up to date. We coders we quite impressed
>with this game.
>

But after playing it for a little while, didn't your soul ache for the really
wonderful games that could have been done with the graphics/sound engine?

 - Ron Sharp.
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan)
Subject: Re: Computer-Controlled Players (New, More Appropriate Thread)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:37:59 GMT


In article <BswJE8.261@ais.org> draper@ais.org (Patrick Draper) writes:
>Has anyone tried using genetic algorithms for CCP's?
>
>I'll bet you have to play thousands of games to train a good one, unless you
>prime the pump with abover average players first.
>
>Any comments?

Ooh, a neural net computer opponent, which would learn from the
programmer and beta testers while they play test the game, so by the
time the actual release occurred, it would be TOUGH. As a player, I
wouldn't want ALL the computer opponents to be like this, but perhaps
one or two, which appear later in the game (towards the end of the
puzzle chain) or which "guard" certain key pieces of info/puzzle, would
add quite a bit to the game.

Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: sap@sactoh0.sac.ca.us (Stephan A. Puga)
Subject: Anyone have any good dungeon-room-sight routines?
Organization: Sacramento Public Access Unix
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 18:26:18 GMT

Basically, I am looking for something like the way Moria handles a
person entering a room.  If there is nothing in the room,
everything up to the walls is visible, but areas can be hidden if
not within the person's line of sight.

Any ideas on how to do this right?

-- 
#############################################################
# "Its been surreal!"         #     sap@sactoh0.SAC.CA.US   #  
#     -- Gogo Dodo            # UUCP=..ames!pacbell!sactoh0 #
#############################################################
From: gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: inappropriate postings [was Re: VGA, Retraces, and DMA]
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:55:57 GMT
Organization: Department of Astronomy, University of Virginia

In article <62430018@acf3.NYU.EDU> reznick@acf3.NYU.EDU (Daniel Reznick) writes:

>I
>have nothing against discussions on non MS-DOS platforms, but the fact
>of the matter is, NO ONE has tried to start any.

That's because most non-MSDOS people have stopped reading the group.
How about putting 'PC' in the subject of all PC-harware-specific posts
so we can mass-kill them?
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: Computer-Controlled Players (New, More
Date: 14 Aug 92 09:22:19 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <1992Aug13.182150.184@exu.ericsson.se>, by exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague):
> I don't think most people want to play against undefeatable opponents.
> They'd prefer oppponents with different styles, etc.  Remember, the
> computer can "see" everything perfectly (it can access internal data
> structures). 

This depends on how you program "the computer".  Nobody forces you to
write an opponent that has perfect knowledge (say, about the position
of an opponent in a maze). I would even say that for strategy-based
games, this is a bad idea.  It does not produce an interesting
opponent, just a cheating opponent.  The computer player should
definitely NOT have access to everything.
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Friday, 21 Aug 1992 14:25:58 EDT
From: Kayvon Z. Sadeghi <KSADEGH@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: VGA memory address

hi out there,

I am trying to write a program that reads the screen buffer and changes
the contants. It works with monochrome display machines as I use the
adress 0xB000; but when it comes to VGA or any other monitor, it gives me
some trouble. I am using the address 0xB800, I think thats the right one
as I have checked it in many ways.
BTW, I am using C, if that matters.

Can anyone give me a hint?


thanks alot
k1
---
------------------------------------------------------------
KAYVON Z. SADEGHI                  K.SADEGHI@IEEE.ORG
VOICE: 202/244-0789


Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: toms@pdx069.intel.com (Tom Shott)
Subject: Re: UNIX share-ware games
Organization: /fs3/l/toms/.organization
Distribution: rec
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:34:27 GMT



I disagree with your solution to the problem. The problem is there are too
many shareware games for PCs.  Because there is shareware people can't look
at the code, improve it and enhance it, while at the same time learning
from the masters.

Take netrek as an example. Netrek is a X based Startrek game w/ mult
players using the internet for communication. Over the last few years there
have been all kinds of great enhancments to netrek, some of which would
never have come from the orginal implementators. The best example was the
addition of UDP support in the netrek server. For those at the end of an
Internet stub UDP (datagram) support really improves playabality. Not the
orginal authors at CMU and Berkley didn't need UDP because they were
playing against people on campus and network lag wasn't a problem. If that
program had been shareware many of the enhancments wouldn't have been made.

If people couldn't write shareware for PCs, many would still program and
give away software for free.  My understanding is most shareware never
really makes any money but it does stiffle improvments.  It's imformation
hoarding. Let's hope there is never a good way to provide shareware on
UNIX.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Shott  INTeL, JF1-19, 5200 Elam Young Pkwy, 		(503) 696-4520
	   Hillsboro, OR 97124  		   	 toms@ichips.intel.com
 INTeL.. We brought you segments,432,EPROM,CISC,RISC,VLIW,EISA,DRAM,FLASH
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett)
Subject: Re: UNIX share-ware games
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:32:21 GMT

toms@pdx069.intel.com (Tom Shott) writes:
>If people couldn't write shareware for PCs, many would still program and
>give away software for free.  My understanding is most shareware never
>really makes any money but it does stiffle improvments.  It's imformation
>hoarding. Let's hope there is never a good way to provide shareware on
>UNIX.

"Shareware" and "provided with source code" are totally independent.
There's nothing stopping you from releasing a shareware program with
source code and with permission given to modify the source and produce
new versions.  Likewise, people release freeware things all the time
that have all sorts of restirctions on them.  "No derivative works
without my permission" and the like.

Also: without shareware everyone would actually be *paying* for gems
like Commander Keen IV instead of playing them for a couple weeks and
deciding they're "not worth the money."

Shareware is an absolute *gift* to the user community -- *yes* almost
no one makes money on shareware, and in a market as thoroughly
dominated by commecial software as the microcomputer markets are, many
of the people who you claim would just "give software away for free"
would simply go completely commercial.

Dave Baggett
-- 
ADVENTIONS: interactive fiction (text adventures) for the 90's!
dmb@wam.umd.edu ** Compu$erve: 76440,2671 ** GEnie: A.DVENTIONS
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: baylor@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Baylor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: VGA, Retraces, and DMA
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:09:25 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

>  Actually the stuff being discussed here is NOT in any VGA programmers'
>guide.  How to use ModeX is in only one book that I know of, and this discussion
>has gone far beyond the info in the book.

	Actually, I'm writing a book to cover most game questions (video 
modes, sprite animation, sound, keyboard handling, parser control,
plots and ending everyone's search for the Ultimate BadGuy).
	Of course, it still needs it's revisions, we still haven't
polled the  publishers yet (but I'm a journalism guy with some contacts
and experience writing, so that may not be a prob) and it may not
be a book on games if things change (maybe a book on Demo graphics 
for buisness presentation - mostly the same material, diff title).
	And you guys wondered why i ask so many questions...


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Baylor Wetzel    baylor@cc.utexas.edu        Hang Tyson 
Free Leonard Peltier
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer