From: martinc@hatteras.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin)
Newsgroups: soc.singles
Subject: Re: Male visual orientationREFRESH
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:40:40 GMT
	<1992Apr3.183430.21995@cs.yale.edu>
	<1992Apr3.190831.7188@u.washington.edu>
Organization: /theta/theta5/unc/martinc/.organization
In-reply-to: intrigue@milton.u.washington.edu's message of 3 Apr 92 19:08:31 GMT

In article <1992Apr3.190831.7188@u.washington.edu> intrigue@milton.u.washington.edu (Angelwing) writes:

   In article <1992Apr3.183430.21995@cs.yale.edu> loosemore-sandra@CS.YALE.EDU (Sandra Loosemore) writes:

   In regards to Star Cap'n Ra's girlfriend's floozy costume ... [did I get
   all the apostrophes right Ed?]

   >Look guys, on Halloween it's kind of traditional for folks to dress up
   >in costumes that are in bad taste, and it's not a sign that they
   >really want to be what their costumes indicate.  

   It seems to me (as generic woman, once again) that should a women choose
   to dress in a provocative manner on Halloween she would not only expect,
   but want the attention that it would engender.  Sexual attention, in other
   words.

God, this is so ... sensible.  For about 30 years I've been hearing
women talk about how they don't understand why men are sexually aroused
by really short skirts, sheer blouses (if you want to get *my* attention
and are at *all* built for it, try a tight a-line skirt, a somewhat
sheer simple blouse, and a camisole-top slip underneath it.  Rowr!) and
all the other facets of sexy women's clothing.  They then insist on (a)
he right to wear these things and (b) the right to insist that men are
pigs when they find the clothes sexually appealing.

It seems at best sort of counter-productive, a sort of analogue to Ed
Wright's feelings about not wanting a women who was interested in him
physically.  (Ed, if you're out there, I hope you took some of our last
suggestions seriously.  Get some help.  Really.)  It also just strikes
me as odd, because for so much of my life I would have given my left
anything-you'd-like-to-name-that-comes-in-pairs to feel that *I* was
sexually attractive.

   >I tend to be pretty open-minded about other people's sexual habits,
   >but I don't think that prostitution is a career that many women aspire
   >to or embark on if they feel they have any other options open to them;
   >I think most women would find prostitution fantasies about as erotic
   >as fantasies about being a bag lady or welfare mother.

   Oh dear oh dear .. see, here we have you speaking as generic woman and,
   well I'm going to have to disagree.  First of all, my sister *chose* a
   career as a call girl.  She certainly had many other options, but at that
   particular time in her life it's what she wanted to do.  She genuinely
   enjoyed her work.  Period.  She did not find it degrading.  She had fun. 

Hallelujah!  Occasionally, one will hear someone (often male) suggest
that doing something intrinsically fun for money is like "getting paid
to fuck."  Absent other factors that I can't help but think of as
hang-ups, what is more intrinsically wrong with prostitution than with
say professional basketball?  Or being a politician.  Maybe that's a bad
example.

If someone feels *forced* against on'es moral beliefs or hangups to
become a prostitute by some circumstance, I have no doubt that it feels
degrading.  But it isn't prostitution per se that couses the feeling of
degradation, it's the other attitudes.

The sad part of prostitution is that many of the lower-level ones, esp.
in places where it is illegal, *are* forced into it, by addiction to
expensive drugs, or by having no other skills and being against the wall
financially.   And in my opinion the feeling of degradation is causes by
a combination of the attitude that sex is something that is wrong and
can at best be redeemed by being in love first, and this aspect of being
forced into it.

   When it quit being fun or when she felt her luck had run out, she quit. 
   She got to dress up in outrageous clothes, had the *best* collection of
   footwear and naughty undies that I've ever seen, and she was a happy
   girl.

I have known a number of people in various sex trades, including
prostitution in places where it was legal.  As long as they felt they
had a free choice in it, it seemed to me that the ones who stuck with it
were happy at it.

   >  What right do
   >*you* have to criticize a woman for not wanting to play along with your
   >fantasies, if she finds them not to her taste?

   I think that he was not critizing her for not wanting to play along with
   his fantasies, because obviously she WAS or she wouldn't have dressed that
   way in the first place.  She just wasn't thinking about him wanting to
   help her undress afterwards.  Like someone else said, he probably should
   have said something and I'm sure she would have been happy to play along.

   >-Sandra

   Lighten up, babe.  Men are not the enemy just because they enjoy a fantasy
   that YOU might find degrading in real life.  I don't know anybody who
   would actually flash a stranger or let people watch them masturbate or
   enter into a menage-a-trois.  But I know PLENTY of people who fantasize
   about these things.  

Angel, I think you might be surprised.  Flash a stranger, maybe not.
But I've both allowed a lady friend to watch me masturbate and I've
participated in a menage a n for 2 <= n <= 6.  The one was *extremely*
exciting for her, and the other was a lot of fun (a combination of
people I really liked anyway and Calvin Coolidge Effect made for quite
an evening.)
--
Charles R. Martin/(Charlie)/martinc@cs.unc.edu/(ne crm@cs.duke.edu) 
O/Department of Computer Science/Sitterson Hall/UNC/Chapel Hill, NC 27599
H/3611 University Dr #13M/Durham, NC 27707/(919) 419 1754
The universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to
grow sharper.  -- Eden Phillpot, I'm told.  Anyone have a better reference?
Newsgroups: soc.singles