HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spk@uk.ac.aber (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: I stand at the door and knock...
Date: 14 Sep 92 11:32:05 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth.

I have seen a couple of messages lately quoting Revelation 3:20 in 
support of their arguments that man is free to choose God. I shall 
not re-enter the free-will debate, but I am concerned that scripture
is being read out of context in this instance.

Revelation 3:20 says:

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and
open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Yesterday evening in Church we had a minister devote half his sermon 
to this verse as if it were talking to the non-Christian who has not 
yet opened his life to Christ. However, I believe this minister was in
error. The scripture clearly refers to the * chirch * Laodicea. 

If we read the rest of revelation 3, and especially verse 17 onwards 
we see that Christ's words are addressed to the Christians who are 
neither hot nor cold. God is about to spew these people from his mouth,
but he is giving the individuals of the church one last chance to choose
to be disciples. Those who do not "open the door" will surely be chastened
as God spews them from his mouth.

All the best,
  Stephen
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 10:38:58 -0700
From:         jstahley@QUALCOMM.COM
Subject:      Spiritual Gifts

Can anyone define what spiritual gifts are and how to tell which spiritual
gifts I may have?
                                JSTAHLEY@ATHENA.QUALCOMM.COM

                                RECEIVING INSPECTION DEPARTMENT
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:56:46 -0400
From:         NWILSON@SMITH.BITNET
Subject:      To Matthias Radke!!

Dear Listmembers,

Please forgive me for posting personal mail on the list. Matthias, if
you're reading, I'm back at Smith, and I wanted to send you a post.
The problem is, I left your e-mail address at home. Please send it to
me! 8-)

Well, listfolk, I am back at Smith for my junior year. It was a fun summer.
I worked with two and three year olds at a day care center in my hometown.
God really taught me some serious lessons while on the job, and I have
really grown as a teacher. I have also grown as a Christian. God really
placed it on my heart that I need to PRAY WITHOUT CEASING. I am not very
diligent about praying or reading the Bible, and I guess the Lord just
gave me a good chastising about it. I realized that perhaps if I prayed
for certain people more- interceded more- God would be able to move some
of the mountains in their lives. It's strange to think that your little
effectual, fervent prayer can do so much in the lives of those arounf



 (oops)
around you! So God's command in my heart lately has been: PRAY! PRAY!
and PRAY SOME MORE! :-)

Some of you may recall that I asked for prayer in the Spring, that my summer
would be more smooth, and that I would be uninhibited in meeting people and
making friends with the other young people in my church. Well, my summer
was much smoother than last year, and I met a few people, and I became more
friendly. But I didn't exactly make friends, so I suppose it was a mixed
bag. However, it was much better than last year and I grew spiritually.

Well, I do hope that you all are doing well. I won't be re-subscribing to
the list this year, as I have an extra
heavy course load this semester, and
can't afford to engage in anything that would distract me from my work.
But please feel free to send me messages :-) and I will rely on Vicky
to send me interesting snippets from the list.

May God bless you all REAL GOOD!!

Nicole

(NWILSON@SMITH.SMITH.EDU)
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:51:15 CDT
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From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      michele!!!

 GOOD YOU FINALLY GOT HERE.
 now there are two of us from USM...
 You'll enjoy most of these discussions.
 God Bless,
 "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:17:07 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Dating the New Testament

Jesse,

Our God acts in space and in time, the events prophesied in scripture
happened or will happen in space and in time. Jesus was born, lived,
ministered, was crucified, died, and rose from the dead, ascended into
heaven and poured out the Holy Spirit in space and in time.  These are
all historical events.  One of the main points made in the NT is that
there were witnesses to all these events.  Because the Bible is (among
other things) a chronicle of historical events, one would expect that
materials that were written at about the same time as the Bible would
also provide some historical corroboration.  This is not to say that
such corroboration is required, but there is nothing inherently wrong
with looking for it.  The Bible is true because it is God's word, not
because it is historically accurate; however, because it is true, one
can expect it to be historically accurate.

The argument which you have supplied for the early dating of the NT
is, to my mind, circular.  When you are asked for evidence for the
70 AD Parousia, you state that it is prophesied in the NT, which you
say was written prior to 70 AD.  When asked how you know that the NT
was written prior to 70 AD, you state that it prophesies events which
occurred in 70 AD.  Such an argument is valdid only if you can provide
some kind of external evidence to support it; otherwise, we'll just
keep going around and around in  circles.

As to why we can rely on the biblical accounts of the life, death, and
resurrection of Jesus, the writers of the NT (especially John and Paul)
go to great lengths to point out that "we did not follow cleverly
devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of
our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty"
-- 2Pet.1:16.  The historical evidence which only eyewitnesses can
provide is constantly cited by the NT as proof that Jesus really
did live, die, and rise from the dead -- see 1John 1:1ff, 1Cor.15:3-8,
and various other passages.  My point here as that the God Himself
isn't satisfied with just telling us (through the NT) the facts, but
He gives us eyewitness corroboration as well.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:56:18 CDT
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From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      "outer hug"!!!

 HEHEHE...
 (G's laughin' hysterically...)
 Just re-read the post that I sent Ken...
 Instead of reading "outer hug"... it was to read " 'puter hug' "
 ...meaning that it's sent over the phone/'puter lines...
 what a blast that generated!!! I needed the extra boost
 "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
From: ICH529@DJUKFA11.BITNET (Matthias Radke)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Dark Dreams
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:38:45 GMT
Organization: Forschungszentrum Juelich

In article <CHRISTIA%92091114580510@ASUACAD.BITNET>, CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET
says:
>
>Knowing the end was coming soon, I reassured him of the love of Jesus, of the
>promise of Heaven, and about how he would be getting a new body.  I told him
>he would live in a place without death or pain or heartache, and he would be
>in the presence of God.

Chris,

That you were able to say this to your son when dreaming shows me
that the Holy Spirit is residing in your heart. Thus, you are really
*blessed*. I would emphasize what Kerry suggested, i.e., to find
out whether this dream may imply something more than what is obvious.

                        In His Love,
                                    Matthias
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:38:46 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Catholic or Ignorant?

Bernice Tennant writes:

>>  I am not Catholic and I am not ignorant.  What does that make me?

Bernice, the term 'ignorant' is not being used here in a pejorative
sense; it's not a synonym for 'stupid'.  To be 'ignorant' of something
is to not know something.  In this case, according to the Catholic
Church, the particular fact of which you are ignorant is that the
Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ as sole earthly vehicle by
which His teachings and His salvation would be spread among human
beings.  If you knew that ('to know', in the sense of 'to agree fully
with', not just 'to have been told by someone'), you would join the
Catholic Church, since you try to do God's will in your life.

The basic teaching is that we don't lose our heavenly inheritance
simply by not knowing something that we ought or ought not to do.  (Of
course, that doesn't mean that a person of sound mind can run out and
start killing people, and then claim ignorance before God.  That gets
into a discussion of "natural law", one I'd prefer to avoid; suffice
it to say that there's such a thing culpable ignorance, the "you
*should* have known better!" situation, especially in areas of
morality.)

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:34:57 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Absolution

Wolfgang wrote: "a RC receives forgiveness through confession
and only through confession, unless he is hindered by force majeure in
which case his repentance and wish to confess count. The non-RC
Christians however receive forgiveness without confession even if they
would have the opportunity to confess.  If this is not correct, please tell me
so."

I would suggest the following adjustment:

Non-RC Christians MAY receive forgiveness without confessing to a priest, since
they are truly repentant and sincerely following those Christian teachings
which they were able to receive by faith.

The RC has assurance of forgiveness, since Christ's chosen representative tells
him in Christ's stead, "yours sins are forgiven."  Outside of this sacrament,
this spoken assurance is absent both for RCs and non-RCs.  However, God may
forgive sins anyway, since He is a faithful and just Judge Who looks at the
heart, not the ritual.  The RC truly believes God wants him to confess his sins
to a priest, therefore if he is able to do so and chooses not to do so, his
heart condemns him and forgiveness is not available.  The non-RC truly believes
he must confess his sins to the Lord Himself in prayer and not to a priest,
therefore his heart confirms his faith and the all-seeing Just One may forgive
his sins as He understands why this believer does not also believe in
confession to a priest.

For a more official line, here is Sullivan (Sullivan, "The Externals of the
Catholic Church," p. 61):

"We Catholics believe that our Saviour has given to His Church a sacrament for
the remission of sins committed after Baptism, this remission being affected by
the absolution of the priest, joined to true supernatural sorrow, earnest
purpose of amendment, and sincere confession of all grievous sin when
confession is possible.

"This sacrament is necessary for the salvation of those who have fallen into
mortal sin after Baptism; that is, they either must receive it or must have an
actual or implied desire to receive it, joined to perfect sorrow for sin.

"What about baptized Protestants who are in good faith?  Do we claim that these
are all lost, because they do not know the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance
and therefore do not receive it?  No; they may turn to God in ardent and loving
contrition, and, being in good faith, this contrition implies that they
earnestly desire to fulfill Christ's law as far as they know it.  If they knew
the Sacrament of Penance as it is, they would receive it.  And so we do not
deny that God may be ready to forgive the sins of those non-Catholic Christians
who are in good faith and are sorry for their sins.

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 22:18:11 -0600
From:         Glennerd Skynard <S05152@DOC.FLC.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Response to Tim's definition of morailty

                      September 5, 1992

Hi all:

     I just read Tim's definition of morality and found it
to be interesting.  I think the definition of morality that
Jesus used was (and is) as follows: "Love the LORD yoru God
with all your mind and with all your soul and with all your
heart and with all your strength.  And the second
commandment is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself."
This seems to be a very good way of summing up morality.
Just thought I'd post this...

                         God Bless,



                        Glennerd :-)
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Via:      UK.AC.SOLENT;  8 SEP 92 11:33:52 BST
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 11:33:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      RE: Spiritual Gifts

Try 1 COR 12 &13

CAL
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: OK, YOU GUYS ASKED FOR THIS....
Date: 13 Sep 92 01:46:50 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

I'm afraid the KJV is all I have to hand at the moment, but the passage
is rather relevant, and I think it's something that needs to be said on
this list every so often. 

(1 Corinthians 1:10-13)

  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
  that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; 
  but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind
  and in the same judgment.

  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of
  the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, 
    I am of Paul; 
    and I of Apollos;
    and I of Cephas; 
    and I of Christ. 

  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name 
  of Paul?

Oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear...
-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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From: nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu (N. L. Tinkham)
Subject: Re: Secular Humanist flyer
Organization: Computer Science Department, Rowan College of New Jersey
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:09:37 GMT

James Kiefer writes:

> I should like to point out that there is no Secular Humanist
> organization, or any recognized leader. 

There isn't a single unified organization like, say, religious denominations
have, but there are organizations and people that identify themselves with
Secular Humanism and that I think can safely be taken as representative
of Secular Humanism -- e.g., _The_Humanist_ magazine, Prometheus Books,
and writers like Paul Kurtz.

I think it's like trying to identify what Evangelicals believe:  there
isn't a single Evangelical organization that one joins, but it's safe to
take _Christianity_Today_ or Zondervan publishers as representative of
Evangelicalism.

_____________________________________________________________________________

                                              Nancy Tinkham
                                              nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:15:23 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: What have I forgotten?
              14 Sep 1992 10:58:00 MDT from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU>

Steven,

What ever happened to the Common Ground document?

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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From: dzeigler@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Daniel R Zeigler)
Subject: Some 50-words-or-less, off-the-cuff definitions of "Christianity"
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:08:30 GMT

Dear Christia:

Carol Long asked for some short definitions of Christianity.  Here are the 
first five that came to mind.  Hope they are helpful!

(1) overcoming Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of one's testimony;
    refusal to love one's life so much as to shrink from death.

(2) sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, walking with Him as a child of 
    light, standing with Him in defiance to the principalities and powers of
    this dark realm.

(3) denying oneself, picking up one's cross, and following Jesus; losing one's
    life for Jesus.

(4) beholding the Lord's glory and being changed into His likeness with ever-
    increasing glory.

(5) "Come lose your life for a carpenter's son,
          for a madman who died for a dream.
     And you'll find the faith his first followers had,
          and you'll feel the weight of the beam.
     And so we follow God's own fool,
          for only the foolish can tell.
     Believe the unbelievable;
          come be a fool as well."

            (5) Michael Card, "God's Own Fool"


--Daniel
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:27:02 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Praise Report

Liz,

    Praise God.  Can anyone join this prayer line?
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:36:37 CDT
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From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Re>Absolution

>...confession is required to a priest,...or by going to Mass...

     Are you saying that it is totaly unnessary to talk one-on-one
with God.?  The First one a Catholic should confess to *is* God!
Then one should go to confession to hear the words of forgiveness.

>
                                                       !Michele

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Original_cc:  HUTTER
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 09:24:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Spiritual Gifts

Hi all!

I promised to post (or send privately) a longer message on the gifts. I
think that this is no longer necessary since Carol already posted such a
message - which apparently is based on very similar sources to the ones
I would have used. So I just want to refer those people who were waiting
for my post to read Carol's or - if they didn't keep it - tell me. I
will send them a copy (1 piece).

Wolfgang <><
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From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Seeking a Catholic Perspective
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:11:55 GMT

creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:

>The teaching goes something like
>this: one is morally obligated to be in the church he considers to be
>the true Church.  A Catholic who does not believe the Catholic Church
>to be the true Church commits serious sin by remaining in the Church
>(see "living a lie" above).

Now I'm really confused!

Okay... so what about the guy who knows what he believes, doesn't agree
with Catholic teaching on every point, but believes that the Catholic
church is *a* true church?  In other words, Catholicism is not a cult.
He has committed no breach of his conscience, but to the Catholic dogma
he has committed a heresy!  How does this differ from the Protestant, who
believes that Protestantism also contains true churches but rejects
much of Catholic doctrine, including that Catholicism is *the* true church?

How is culpability (responsibility) determined?  By other statements you
have made, one's responsibility is not determined by what you have been
told or what you have heard.  For example:

>   I think, rather, that you still are considered inculpably ignorant.
>You have, in fact, already learned teachings that contradict the
>Catholic Church.  Just being told otherwise will not _make_ you
>believe.

It sounds like culpability is determined by one's desire to be right with
God, and most Protestants and Catholics alike desire to be right with God.


>   Finally, I'd like to add that this discussion totally ignores the
>grace that God gives in addition to His forgiveness.  This grace can
>be given only by confessing to a priest.  That is the advantage of
>going to confession, no matter what the penitent believes.

What are the effective results of this additional "Grace" that God can give
only through a Catholic priest?  How does it differ from the Grace that God
gives through His Son?  I'm making the assertion that God's Grace through
His Son is imparted (did I get the right word, Jesse? :-) to all who believe,
whether they be Protestant, Catholic, or whatever.


Please help!
-TimK
-- 
Tim King                  |  Some of us favor logic in making decisions.
24 Myrtle Street          |  Some, emotions.  I, personally, get very    |\
Dedham, MA 02026          |  emotional about faulty logic! :-)           | >
timk@world.std.com        |                                             <>
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:37:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      The special grace of the Sacraments (was: Re>Absolution)

In a message of Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:15:46 GMT
Received on Thu, 10 Sep 92 21:47 N
Steve Creps <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU> wrote:

>I'm pretty sure that God's forgiveness would be obtained
>by confessing to a Protestant minister (unless the person confessing
>knows he needs a priest, but is rejecting that knowledge), but this
>forgiveness would be due to the action of the penitent person, not
>that of the minister. On the other hand, a priest, by virtue of his
>Holy Orders, is able to administer Penance sacramentally, along with
>the grace which accompanies it.

So what is the difference between forgiveness due to the action of the
penitent person and forgiveness due to the action of an ordained priest?
And what is this special grace that is administered in the sacrament?

Wolfgang <><
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