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SCA Digest                  Mon,  7 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 606 

Today's Topics:
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SCA Digest                  Fri,  4 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 600 

Today's Topics:
                         Wayfarer from Lochac
                    Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
                          various and sundry
                        two threads became one
                      Greetings from Ravensnest
        safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
                          Robin Hood Recast
                        A thought about Rialto
                        Truckers Horns/Bridges
                          RK, and your eyes
               Use of Houndstooth in Garb -- Thankyou!
                          Robin hood recast
                             Email to me
                     safety for marshals (2 msgs)
                             Colored tape
        safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
                        A thought about Rialto
                        reply re: period songs
   Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
                Eschew courtesy while discussing it...
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 23:10:19 GMT
From: Mark Richard Dewis <mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au>
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Subject: Wayfarer from Lochac
Message-Id: <1992Sep3.231019.17019@cam.compserv.utas.edu.au>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Richard of Dunheved!

I am posting for a freind, Ciaran Faoilchara (Derek Binns) who plans
to be wayfaring in the US and Europe next year, and wants to start
gathering contacts now so that he can correspond with them himself
well before he leaves (he does not have access to electronic mail
himself). He is looking at arriving in the States in about June/July
'93 and to be in Europe from about October through to December '93.

Anyone interested in hosting a nice, quiet Australian for these times,
could you please drop me a line via e-mail and I'll pass your offers 
on to Ciaran.

Thanks in advance!

-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.
-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit. 

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:01:50 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Message-Id: <Bu1472.CqB@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <Bu0JBE.Dop@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <7887@hq.hq.af.mil> snolan@marge.hq.af.mil writes:
>
>>Our camp surmised that some irate local was on his CB home station
>>telling misinformation about us on the channels used by traffic of
>>I-79.  We figured that someone was telling the beasts to bleat at us.
>>
>>Any other ideas?  
>
A lot of truckers probably blow their airhorns because a) they are bored
from white line fever and we are something unusual and b) they assume
that we must be some sort of Boy Scout Jamboree or other mundane group
and are wishing us well.

>     
Lothar \|/
        0

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:10:49 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: various and sundry
Message-Id: <Bu14M1.D60@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <9209012204.AA08617@isi.com> kevin@isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai) writes:
>Aryk Nusbacher so wonderfully described some early musicians:
>
>> All 'round the fire, the natives had reached back into their race
>> memory and pulled out the primal dances that their ancestors had 
>> done 'round the fires in the dark reaches of the past.  Their 
>> shoulders were hunched, and they pounded out these deep rhythms 
>> of the hunt, of war, even the very rhythms of life.  They were cele-
>> brating these aspects of their existence, both individual and tribal 
>> existence, with spontaneous, heartfelt dance.
>
>Then concluded:
>
>> Just like the Middle Ages.
>
>
>Well, at least it _IS_ pre-17th century. A whole lot pre.
>
>Keradwc
>
No it isn't. It sounds just like an excessively wild night on frat row
in Bloomington, In. Dudes will be Dudes whether you put them in
Budwieser T-shirts and Birkenstocks or Cavalier.

Lothar \|/
        0

 -----------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:44:38 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: two threads became one
Message-Id: <Bu10ME.9Du@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <714910190.F00002@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>mike@xenlink.cuc.ab.ca (Mike Johnson) writeth:
>
> MJ> we have at least 2 squires who
> MJ> are members of the animal kingdom. ( 1 dog & 1 cat that I know of). ]
> MJ> At least one of which has a SCA membership. What are the requirements for
>
> MJ> Species????      GRINNNN......
>
>

My God, there's even a period precedent for elevating an animal to high
office, Caligua made his horse a senator! ;) (We King Swaetsox & Fluffy
our Queen do grant this scroll...)

Lothar \|/
        0

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:56:06 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: Greetings from Ravensnest
Message-Id: <Bu13xI.CIF@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <BtwqLv.GqC@agora.rain.com> lcline@agora.rain.com (Larry Cline) writes:
>
>Greetings from Garrick Mayhew,
>
>In article <1992Aug31.023841.13363@ultb.isc.rit.edu> pjb4288@ultb.isc.rit.edu (Pete - Toonatic - Boulay) writes:
>>Greetings from Ravensnest and Lorin Francis Rinaud...
>>
>                ...
>               
>       >
>>I am a user of an electric wheelchair <don't know what to call it scadian>
>>and I've been thinking of how I could outfit it to be more period, and have
>>not come up with many ideas.
>>
>>If any gentle out there has a thought or suggestion, I'd love to entertain it.
>>
>
>This may seem somewhat silly but I have seen one with a horse's various and
>sundry parts.  It does have some drawbacks in close quarters but it is
>entertaining.
>
>Beyond that it seems that most people ignore the presence of the wheelchair,
>as if you had just walked up and sat down.  Others I have seen with various
>other fur and cloth coverings.
>
>
There is a lady named Mistress Gywnniss here in the Middle Kingdom who
has to use a personal mobility vehicle to get around at Pennsic. Since
she is in one of the Dark Horde Groups (I don't know which one), she has
decorated it with a lot of red and black cords and cloth and calls it
her "yak". Very cute.

   As for names for your wheels that don't sound garishly modern, how
about "my chair" or a "wheeled chair", both terms describe the item in
words that were known in period, and medieval technology could have come
up with a wheeled chair if the need had arose for one.
   As a general rule, I like to use words that ignore or conceal an
item's modern origins, rather than coming up with a cutesy term that
points out the fact that it is strange and that I am trying to hide the
fact. (Ex. wagon instead of dragon for car, garderobe instead of
portacastle for nasty chemical toilet at Pennsic).

   Hope I helped,            

   Lothar \|/
           0
                       ...
>
>>
>>In Service,
>>
>>Lorin Francis Rinaud
>>Elder Town Crier
>>Ravensnest, Thescorre, East
>>Campaigne Mercurie
>>-- 
>
>Garrick Mayhew
>-- 
>Larry Cline (Amiga Harpoon Scenario Administrator)
>lcline@agora.rain.com
>C_________   Industrial Graphics
>

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:24:55 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Message-Id: <Bu159J.Dv0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <Bu0DA7.7Ft@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.000532.19720@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Alan Kerr) writes:
>
>>In some heraldry, there are 'stains' which are basically a few
>>'natural dye' colors.  
>
>The other heraldic colours were created in the middle ages by aniline and
>petrochemical pigments, of course.  \8-)
>

I have seen wool dyed with natural dyes which is quite bright. None of
the colors are as saturated as their modern equivalents, but I do know
that Weld will give a reasonably bright yellow, some Madder will give a
bright red, and that there is some dye that gives a yellowy orange.
Bright cloth dyes were obtainable in period, they just weren't as
intense as chemical dyes.
   The basic idea of putting non-combatants in bright, easily identified
uniforms of some sort is basically a good one, talk with the powers that
be.
   At Pennsic, at least over the last couple of years, the only battle
where "semi-combatants" were allowed was the woods battle, where scouts
were allowed. Anyone else was either a fighter or a non-fighter.

Hope this helps,

Lothar \|/
        o

 -----------------------------

Date: Wed,  2 Sep 92 18:51:51 EDT
From: Jeff Lee <smylex!jlee@bloom-beacon.mit.edu>
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)
Subject: Robin Hood Recast
Message-Id: <424-JNEWS-2.1@smylex.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Godfrey!

Lord Ailean Mac an Daroch wrote:
> 
> Might I suggest Master David McDougalls of Rivendell for the Robin
> Hood role.  [...]  he has been known as something of a rogue
> and a little different for years

A *LITTLE* different?  ;-)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"

 -----------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 92 23:39:52 GMT
From: Sting <mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <1992Sep3.233952.1830@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In <1992Sep3.212202.26775@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu> cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles) writes:

>I had a thought about making the Rialto work a little more efficiently.

>My idea is to make the Rialto "slightly moderated," in that it could
>have subject-area moderators.

[ ... ]

>Is this system, or something like it, workable?  How much would it
>reduce noise?


From my perspective here, the Rialto has one of the highest signal-to-noise
ratios of any group with similar amounts of traffic on the Internet.  It is
truly refreshing compared to the sheer wall of dreck that confronts me some
mornings wading through the fifty or so groups I keep up with.

Given the amount of traffic that comes through the Rialto in a given day, 
on a huge variety of topics, a moderator's life could quickly become a morass
of drudgery.

I do not believe that it is necessary for us to implement such a bureaucratic
mess as that; we should let the opinions of the Knowne Worlde continue to be
expressed freely and with the same good care and conscience that most of the
contributors to the Rialto seem to have shown throughout the time I've been 
scanning its subject lines.  After all, isn't that what Society courtesy and
respect are all about?


One in favour of less government,
Cragin


Cragin von Pfeffenhausen
Minstrel for Dragon Clan
Sting@Dartmouth.EDU / mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu / (603) 643-5716
  all requests granted!

 -----------------------------

Message-Id: <MAILQUEUE-101.920904091100.448@saturn.uark.edu>
To: SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu
From: "Paul A. Byers" <PAULB@saturn.uark.edu>
Organization: University of Arkansas
Date: 4 Sep 92 09:11:00 CST
Subject: Truckers Horns/Bridges

There is a bridge on I-79 right around there. (remember the woods
battle when the EK held a banner on the abuttment?) In some regions it
is customary to blow you horn before you cross a bridge to give folks
on the bridge a chance to get off.

I believe that the majority of truckers are doing this. There is a
sign announcing the bridge. This is why they sound off at night too.

Most of the truckers  don't even notice us.

(got to be some other ex-truckers and truckers on the Rialto who
remember the 'honk when crossing a bridge' rule.)

Pavel
Calontir

(was a trucker in my youth)

 -----------------------------

Message-Id: <MAILQUEUE-101.920904091502.352@saturn.uark.edu>
To: SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu
From: "Paul A. Byers" <PAULB@saturn.uark.edu>
Organization: University of Arkansas
Date: 4 Sep 92 09:15:02 CST
Subject: RK, and your eyes

On radial keratotomy, read all the reports on it. The studies
coming out of the old USSR (were more RK has been done than any were
in the world.) about 40% of the cases the eye does not completely
heal and the lense slowly drys out. This causes a slow degeneration
of sight. (couple years ok, then slowly down hill.) There also have
been some ruptured lenses from light trama after the scars have
compleltly dried out. Plus most folk end up far sighted after the
operation and end up needing glasses anyway.

    My eye doctor (Master Craig Duggen) talked me out of it on a
long trip to Estrella. (I get my eye glasses free, so he was not
lossing money. In fact could have made money. oh yes, he's an
opthalmologist not an optician. he fixes eyes not just sells glasses.
He's also pretty good at stiching those unexpected holes from a Sat.
night on the town :) )

If any one would care to continue this discusion let us take it to e-
mail. It is not a good subject for the Rialto

Pavel
Calontir
pavel@uafhp.uark.edu

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 92 10:44:12 EDT
From: "Mary Knettel (Genevieve du Vent Argent)" <MKNETTEL@kentvm.kent.edu>
Subject: Use of Houndstooth in Garb -- Thankyou!
To: Rialto <SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu>

Thankyou to everyone who responded to my question about using
houndstooth patterned fabric in early period garb.  Thanks
especially to Thora Sharptooth for quoting extensively from
the Jorgensen text.  Not being a "weave-junkie" I'm grateful
for the specific reference!

I've got a lot of reading to do!

-Genevieve du Vent Argent, Marche of Gwyntarian, MidRealm
 Mary Knettel, KSU, Kent, OH  mknettel @ kentvm.kent.edu

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 05:24:29 GMT
From: Curtis Howland <howland@noc.arc.nasa.gov>
Organization: NASA Science Internet Project Office
Subject: Robin hood recast
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.052429.15271@news.arc.nasa.gov>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <715422381.F00003@ocitor.fidonet>, Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt) writes:
...
|>  Will Scarlett: myself, I suppose.....
|>  Friar Tuck: Denis of the Titans (right build and face....)
|> 
|> 
|>                                                         -Ioseph of Locksley
|>                                                          Grump

I must insert here that I can think of no better
Friar Tuck candidate than our own

Baron Dur!

(Take a bow, my land-lord of choice.)

---
Christofer de Hoyland    howland@nsipo.nasa.gov 
Province of the Southern Shores,
Principality of the Mists, Kingdom of the West.

 -----------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 00:42:00
From: Joe Bethancourt <Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org>
Subject: Email to me
Message-Id: <715500972.F00001@ocitor.fidonet>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

To the gentles of the Rialto......

There seems to be a bit of confusion about how to reach me via E-mail....
as my postings on the Rialto originate in Dallas, Texas USA, (Ansteorra)and 
my home is in Phoenix, AZ USA (Atenveldt).....herewith what I will try to
use as a signature block sort of thing for a while, to remind everyone...

   --------------------------------------------------------------

   I get net-mail at the two addresses below. DO NOT SEND NETMAIL
   OR EMAIL TO THE BBS I POST FROM ON THE RIALTO! It is in Dallas.
   I am in Phoenix........these BBSes are in Phoenix.......and the
   first address is the best. Use the second only if the first one
   bounces.....

   --------------------------------------------------------------

   FIDO                  INTERNET

   1:114/110             Joe.Bethancourt@f110.n114.z1.fidonet.org
   1:114/105             Joe.Bethancourt@f105.n114.z1.fidonet.org

   --------------------------------------------------------------

                                                -Ioseph of Locksley
                                                 Professional Grump

... Beat me! Whip me! Make me wear bad Elizabethians!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 13:11:08 -0700
Message-Id: <9209042011.AA19885@isi.com>
From: Keradwc an Cai <kevin@isi.com>
To: rialto@isi.com
Cc: KEVIN@isi.com
Subject: safety for marshals

Richard, from Storvik, commented on the Marshals safety issue:

(Taken out of order)
> We can all tell stories about melees between units on the same side that 
> resulted when the unit they were both fighting, from different angles, 
> disappeared.  Colored tape on helms only helps when the units are not yet 
> engaged.  Once the weapons start flying it takes yelling and screaming
> to get two same side units to stop killing each other.

No argument there. But ... if,
> With the array of flashing colors that a fighter is presented with during
> combat he can't make identification decisions without stopping and assessing
> the situation.  

it's my opinion that that fighter is improperly trained, and by admission,
unsafe.

If a fighter can't tell that the person he's facing is on 'his side', 
there's no safety problem, and no issue to concern anyone but members of
each unit involved (I DID happen in period, it is NOT a safety issue,
so it's not material here). 

OTOH, if that fighter can't tell that the person he's facing is not 
a combattant BEFORE he attempts to attack, it indicates to me that:

   the fighter has dangerous reflexes       (Pull authorization. Fast.)
   the fighter hasn't been trained properly (More training. Pay Attention.)
   the fighter is confused                  (Don't attack if can't ID.)
   Etc.                                     (DON'T ATTACK IF CAN'T ID!)

The other things we do to maintain a reasonable level safety are far
less subjective. But any fighter who attacks without knowing at the very
least that his opponent IS a combattant, and IS aware of him [barring
non-violent 'death-from-behind'], is a dangerous safety risk, and 
should not be on the field unsupervised.

> A marshal's main defense is identification. 

I've always found a marshal's best defense is vision and mobility. In
the town battle described, both appear to have been somewhat scarce.

> Color coding is less effective than avoidance.

Absolutely.

Keradwc
  kconnery@isi.com

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 12:36:38 -0700
Message-Id: <9209041936.AA19736@isi.com>
From: Keradwc an Cai <kevin@isi.com>
To: rialto@isi.com
Cc: KEVIN@isi.com
Subject: safety for marshals

Arval noted, responding to Aldric's query about an SCA-wide 'I am not a 
target' identifier, wrote:

> Why do we need a standard?  Currently, the system is fairly clear: Anyone
> on the field who isn't in armor isn't a legal target.  Are there many cases
> of marshalls and scouts being hit by fighters?  Is there really a problem
> here to be solved?

Mikjal Annarbjorn, on the same topic, wrote:

> If the marshallate wants to be easily distinguished from the combatants,
> they should be wearing something that is easily visible and instantly
> distinguished from anything that most combatants would wear.  Reversing
> the current  marshall's badge is a good possible suggestion (ie, black
> swords on yellow).

And (I'm almost done with the quotes, folks...) Aryk Nusbacher asked:

> Is there a widespread problem of marshals getting clocked?  

then stated:

> I suspect that a bit of training would be worth any amount of bright
> orange cloth.  [...] Teaching marshals to duck would be good too.

The only specific instance of a marshall being struck (well, almost)
is one which happened at a Burro Creek war some years back. The marshal
in question was backed up against some of the brush (which was VERY dense).
One fighter, somewhat less subtle, and not having paid attention to the
scenario rules, took a short-cut through the brush.  And, on seeing
a head, apparently decided to swing.

Fortunately, the marshal heard the commotion, and was able to block the
shot (and discovered that closet-dowels aren't sufficient to reliably
stop blows directed at the marshal).

Note that A) the fighter was out-of-bounds when he 'engaged' the 
marshal, and B) obviously hadn't made 'eye-contact', making ANY attack
against our rules. The fact that it was an unarmored marshall....well,
that's just another point. Neither the Atenvelt nor Caidan Earl Marshals 
knew the fighter themselves, and removed the fighter's permission to
fight at the war, and were going to find whoever authorized and/or trained
him. Past that I don't know -- I didn't follow it up.


Arval: The problem to be solved is people targetting non-targets. As Aryk
suggests, this is better done by education than regulation (sound like 
anything you've suggested <g>).

Mikjal: There shouldn't be any need to specifically identify non-combattants.
If a fighter targets someone who is NOT a legitimate target, there is a
training problem. And we cannot prevent carelessness by selecting a different
color pattern.

Aryk: Yup. Training and a _sturdy_ staff. 

All: What was done in situations like this in period? (Did it come up? I 
seem to recall that there were many non-combattants within the 'combat
zone' of most behorts (sp?); what did they do?) If there is a period 
solution, shouldn't it be _THE_ first thing to consider?

Keradwc
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |       Adfui, Feci        |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 15:54:46 -0700
Message-Id: <9209042254.AA20531@isi.com>
From: Keradwc an Cai <kevin@isi.com>
To: rialto@isi.com
Cc: KEVIN@isi.com
Subject: Colored tape

Alexandre, responding to Arval's note:

>Why do we use colored tape to identify sides in large battles?  By doing
>so, we are introducing a modern solution to a problem that we could be
>solving in medieval ways.

wrote:

> Such a little thing he said up there, and yet, I think, 
> quite profound in its own way.

Arval, much to his credit, has said the same thing before, albeit 
usually on other topics. 

I use a similar guideline, and have expanded it to the general question:

What was done to solve <this problem> in period?

If the situation never came up, _then_ check out non-intrusive 
modern solutions. If the situations did come up (as they did here, as
they did to 'identify' non-combattants in melees, etc.), what was done
then? There's at least a millenium's worth of practice to choose from --
and it they didn't HAVE a solution, perhaps it's worth determining if
WE need a solution.

Keradwc
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |       Adfui, Feci        |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

        The easy counter-argument is that in medieval warfare and tourneys
the participants did it much more often and so such measures worked better.
Or to phrase it in a less flattering way - it's too hard to do without tape.

        But, I can't help but think to myself - how hard would it be, really,
to make up tabards for one's troops, to learn enough heraldry to identify
friendly units - at least those from the kingdom, and so on.

        Not terribly, is my gut reaction.  This idea appeals to me so 
instinctively, I am hard put to say why.

        Here is something, though.  At wars (or Grand Tournaments:-), the most
impressive spectacle in the actual fighting, is seeing the liveried units
march out.  I use liveries here in a very loose sense, units with shields
with the same device count.  If there were no tape, such things might be 
encouraged.

        Arval, what a great idea, that hit me square in a blind-spot.


badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Seneschal of Caer Galen, Outlands
               nexus@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"You're still doing the things that I gave up years ago.."-----Lou Reed

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:57:58 GMT
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy@progress.com>
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.135758.17615@progress.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In private mail to the original poster, I mentioned one
problem with the scheme of marking scouts helms with
bright tape.  How are you supposed to sneak around in
the woods when your helm screams "Look at Me!"  "Here
I Am!" to everyone?`

I tried scouting drills in a red shirt once.  It didn't
work.  Later that day, I tried them in a dark green
shirt.  That worked.

        Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:06:09 GMT
From: "A.J.S. Nusbacher" <aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <Bu27AA.IBI@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep3.212202.26775@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu> cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles) writes:

>I had a thought about making the Rialto work a little more efficiently.

That's what Alberto Fujimori said, isn't it?

>My idea is to make the Rialto "slightly moderated," in that it could
>have subject-area moderators.
>
>These would not be moderators in the usual sense, but something more
>like experts or specialists.  An example might be Cariadoc on the
>subject of cooking, or Justin for dance (supposing that either of them
>volunteered for such a position).

So who would be the sarcasm moderator?  Hossein and I would have to fight
it out, no?


Aryk Nusbacher

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 14:04:55 GMT
From: Monica Cellio <mjc+@cs.cmu.edu>
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Subject: reply re: period songs
Message-Id: <mjc.715615495@NL.CS.CMU.EDU>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

I think there is a terminology problem getting in the way of this 
exchange.  Julitta lists the following songs from her repertoire and 
implies that most are period: "Lions", "Dice Game of the 2 Olafs",
"Tale of William the Marshall", "Born on the Listfield", "On Guard",
"Lochmabentown Harper".

Of these, the only one that is period, according to Julitta's notes, is
the last.  Others are about period incidents or people, but that does *not*
mean the song is period.  A song is composed of, among things, language
and music; you can tell a period story in a very non-period way, and you
can tell non-period stories in period ways.  What was under discussion here
was the authenticity of the *songs*.

I have never heard Julitta perform and certainly pass no judgement on her;
I just think people are operating under two different definitions of period.
"Period in feel" and "period" are different, and I am sure that 
misunderstandings can be avoided in the future by using the correct term.

Ellisif

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 15:56:46 GMT
From: Terry Nutter <jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu>
Organization: The Rialto.
Subject: Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
Message-Id: <3406@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings to all, but especially Sarra Graeham, from Angharad 
ver' Rhuawn.

Sarra has posted a marvelous letter on medieval English songs, 
with some lovely references.  (I'd particularly like to second 
the reference to Dobson and Harrison, _Medieval English Lyrics_, 
because it is widely available.  When I get home, I'll try to 
remember to pull my copy and pick up the publisher and ISBN.)

First of all, and before I go any farther: thank you, thank you,
thank you!  That posting took a lot of time and work to put
together, quite apart from the time and work of knowing the 
content that went behind having the idea to do it.  It is a
lovely thing, and I am glad to have seen it, and you should
send it off elsewhere (say, _TI_) to be published as a note
on songs, because I'm sure that many people not on this net
would be _very_ glad to have the benefit of this.

Now a bit on content.

Actually what many Scadians work from in terms of popular 
songs is a few collections from the first decade and a half of 
the 17th C (Thomas Ravenscroft's collections of popular songs 
and rounds; since they are collected rather than written, it is 
reasonable to suppose that they are at least similar to what 
was sung ten to thirty years before, making them stylistically 
appropriate for very late period), and those of the Child ballads 
that have documentable roots in period.  All this material is
Renaissance rather than medieval.  Some of the patterns are the
same, but some are slightly different.  But many people do seem
to misunderstand what those differences are.

So I'd like to add a couple of further notes on ballads.

First, there is a general bias to the effect that ballads are 
very old, and that even those that are first documented latish can 
be presumed to have been sung earlier.  All serious modern 
scholarship attacks this.  (1) There is good reason to suppose 
that few ballads antedate the late 16th C, and no songs in that 
form antedate the 15th (see e.g. Hodgart, _The Ballads_; I believe 
it is a Penguin book; if someone wants to know for sure, write me, 
and I'll pull my copy, also at home, darn it).  (2) There are many 
ballads of which we have many copies and many versions.  The 
evidence from these is that ballads change rapidly, that they 
spring up in one place, spread, and then, in most cases, die away.  
(3)  Not all ballads were written by our old friend Anon.  In some 
cases, we know precisely when a ballad was written, and by whom.
There are other evidences, but I don't have my sources with me,
and I don't want to keep going without them....

There are ballads with early roots (though we frequently have 
only references to their early forms) that have supernatural 
elements.  They largely correspond, even in their OOP form, with 
Mistress Sarra's observation that old supernatural = Christian.  
The primary counterexamples are the first few ballads in Child
(as I recall, 1-3; Child 1 is the song from which, way way down
the line, Scarborough Fair is descended), which refer to elf
knights.  Virtually all other supernatural beings are ghosts or
devils, and the setting is clearly Christian.

If you go through Ravenscroft, you will also find that although 
the subject matters of his songs and rounds (not ballads -- they
are a specific form, and very few of Ravenscroft's songs are
ballads, the best known exceptions being "The Three Ravens" and
"Yonder Comes a Courteous Knight") are very different from those 
of the songs Mistress Sarra cited, the rule of "No real names, now" 
is astonishingly consistent -- as it is in much Elizabethan art 
music (does Dowland _ever_ name a party to the tale of a song?).  

In short, Steeleye Span is a bad model, and so are 60s folk songs.

Again, thanks, Sarra!  I love to see real actual citations and
stuff.  (I suppose that means I should do more of it....)  

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 22:23 EDT
From: DEW%PSUECLC.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Eschew courtesy while discussing it...
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings all!

(at no peril to myself...)

Courtesy and tolerance are the two minimal characteristics that you have to
have to play in the SCA...this does _not_ mean that you tolerate discourtesy in
discourse.


Arval resonds to the question:

> Should there be a "courtesy" requirement for peerage orders?  And should
> it be enforced?

>Yes, I believe so.  Peerage is a recognition that an individual is a model
>of what the SCA strives to be.  It has preconditions - one must achieve a
>certain level of skill or show a certain level of service to the Society -
>but in the final analysis, it should not be given if the candidate does not
>embody the qualities of courtesy and honor that the Society holds as its
>prime virtues.  That is basically what I meant a few days ago when I wrote
>that our awards are given for what you are, rather than for what you've
>done.

(I just can't take this serious...so know that this whole comment is ridden
with smileys)

Recognizing Virtues?  Embodiment of Qualities?  Great concept, but last time I
checked, feet of clay was one of the aspects that all humans have in common.
"Recognized for prowess" OR "given a pacifier" is the most prevalent reason
given for granting awards like these (the exception is were you hear nearly
everybody make the comment, "well, it's about time!")

>I think it is clear that there must be _some_ requirements for entry to the
>peerage other than skill and/or learning alone; otherwise, there are
>thousands of musicians, dancers, embroiders, etc. in the real world who
>could walk into an SCA meeting and be peers the next day.  I sometiems put
>it this way: Peerage is a recognition that the candidate has made the SCA
>part of herself, and herself part of the SCA.  It is a recognition that the
>candidate needs no further reward, and is one of the people who make the
>Society wonderful for the love of it.

Come on, Arval!  Everybody KNOWS that peers are Born...not created by hard
work at thankless tasks (without botching them, like losing important
documents or violation of policy).  Of course, they might have made an
exception for those who "served their office well", rather than the people for
whom that office was created to serve...you never know.

>I know that the Order of the Pelican (at least in the Pennsic kingdoms)
>takes the courtesy requirement very seriously.  The logic, I think, is that
>to serve the Society effectively, one must have a courteous outlook toward
>everyone.  If you go around pissing people off, you can't accomplish much
>of anything.

From this passage, one might conclude that once you have one of these awards
that you may "piss-off with impunity"!  Pelicans take courtesy serious?!?
Shirely you jest...

>Not being a member of any other peerage order, I cannot say how those
>orders view the courtesy requirement.  From the outside, it appears that
>the Chivalry do weight this factor in their discussions, but that their
>focus is primarily on courtesy on the field.  There have been times when it
>seemed that the Laurel was giving very little weight to the courtesy
>requirement, and other times when it seemed they were considering it quite
>seriously.

So you conclude with allusions to the lack of courtesy in the other
peerages--where does this leave you in the balance?


(The preceeding was closed captioned with smileys for the humor impaired.)

Salam,
Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain
dew@ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)

"I'm the Baron!  Ya gotta loath me!"

 -----------------------------

End of SCA Digest
******************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 15:19:46 pst
From: "DAVOUD MAHA"@smtpgate.ccmail.com
Message-Id: <9208077159.AA71590@smtpgate.ccmail.com>
To: SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: cc:Mail SMTPUUCP 2.0 Undeliverable Message

User mfaul is not defined
           Original text follows 
 ----------------------------------------
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From: Automatic SCA Digestifier <@mc.lcs.mit.edu:sca-request@mc.lcs.mit.edu>
Reply-To: SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: SCA Digest V5 #602
To: SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu


SCA Digest                  Sat,  5 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 602 

Today's Topics:
                   MAILING LIST: siege engineering
   Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
                        Colored tape (2 msgs)
                  Accents (was Re: COVINGTON CROSS)
                             Colored tape
                         safety for marshals
                      witches; same sex consorts
                          Aragonese Fealty ?
                        A thought about Rialto
                   MAILING LIST: siege engineering
            Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
                 Inspiration (was Re: consort gender)
                             period songs
                        parking//diesel pests
              Using period words to refer to mundanities
                            consort gender
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 20:59:37 GMT
From: Andrew Smith <amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Subject: MAILING LIST: siege engineering
Message-Id: <Bu2nnD.5v7@uunet.uu.net>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.org.sca
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

                        SIEGE MAILING LIST
                   (Plan, hopes and dreams....)

        The siege mailing list is intended for the discussion of
pre-black powder methods of attack and defence of fortified positions. 
While the discussion of the downfall of the great siege engines caused
by the advent of portable, and powerful cannons, is important, I would
like this to be somewhat minimized.

        My thoughts is that this would be used to discuss the myriad of
topics applicable.

        Physics                 Mechanics
        Materials               Construction
        Transportation          Terminology
        Historic evidence of use  - Manuscripts
                                  - Texts
                                  - Archaeological data

        Historical reconstruction
        Common myths, and misconceptions
        and so on.


        I would also like to be able to compile a database of books,
references, and data for later use.

        
        I would like to ask all who wish to participate, to try to
re-define the commonly (incorrectly) used words such as catapult and ballista.


 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Instructions for siege mailing list
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------

To get onto the siege mailing list, just follow these real simple
directions.... hey, I got them right!  

Send mail to :    siege-request@bransle.ucs.mun.ca
and include a single line saying:

subscribe siege <your name here>

That's it!

Then to mail to siege simply mail your articles to:
siege@bransle.ucs.mun.ca

Don't forget, "i" before "e" except after "c".  :)

The affairs of the list will be archived on the FTP site at
bransle.ucs.mun.ca. Simply FTP in, give "anonymous" as a userID
and your full address as the password.

The archive will be under
 /pub/sca/siege.current  (current for the month)
 /pub/sca/siege.<date>   (monthly archive)

Actually, there's a whole lot of good stuff there, so you might want to
look around anyways...!
-- 
Sebastian/Andrew Smith
amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 21:09:23 GMT
From: Terry Nutter <jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
Message-Id: <3412@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Dani of the Seven Wells
writes:

>I'm going to nit-pick at some of Sarra's details while agreeing with her
>general thesis.  Looking at early English ballads (which is to say, 
>those of the sixteenth century), we find specific names often enough,
>in ballads such as Andrew Barton, and John Dory.  And tales of an historical
>battle (such as Chevy Chase/The Hunting of the Cheviot) will often
>yield sizable role-calls.

Hmmmm ... I think I'm going to nit-pick a nit-pick.  ;^}

Well, yes, no, and sort of.  "Andrew Barton" is on pretty solid ground;
but the first occurrence of "John Dory" is in _Deuteromelia_, Ravenscroft,
1609, so we are on an edge; and such uses of names are _very_ rare. "The 
Hunting of the Cheviot" is also good, in that we have a version from 1559.
By the way, "The Bonny Earl of Murray", although our first versions are
late, we know existed earlier, and doesn't make any sense without the
names; and the same can be said of "The Burning of Auchindoon."

But these are very nearly the complete set for which this is true.  Most
other ballads that are called 15th and 16th C are in a class with "The 
Battle of Harlaw" and severan others, in that we know they _existed_ quite 
early, because there are references to them, but we do not have early 
versions.  

"The Battle of Harlaw" is particularly instructive as to historicity of 
names and events.  Offhand, I count five names: James the Rose, John the 
Graeme, Lord Forbes, "his brother" (which for this purpose, I'll call a 
name ;^), and MacDonnel.  Nice roll call, and lots of neat detail about the 
battle, too, including lots of place names.

Only problem is, by the time you get our first recorded instance of the
words, about 400 years after the actual battle, they've got the wrong
side winning.  How much else of this do _you_ trust is survival, as
opposed to interpolation?

It is still generally the case that period songs that mention explicit
names are the exception rather than the rule.

Anyhow, Dani's main point, which was also Sarra's, is that unless you
look at the songs themselves, you can't _know_ what are the rules and
what are the exceptions.  Whether I, or they, are wrong or right about
specific points is probably less important than that general one, which
both of them have made so very well.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 21:07:23 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: Colored tape
Message-Id: <1992Sep04.210723.14573@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!

Why do we use colored tape to identify sides in large battles?  By doing
so, we are introducing a modern solution to a problem that we could be
solving in medieval ways.  Confusion of sides happened in medieval warfare
and tournaments, and they developed ways to deal with it: heraldry, war
cries, and strategies that prevented this kind of confusion.  Am I missing
something?  If not, why don't we do away with it once and for all?

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 21:43:59 GMT
From: Jeff Berry <nexus@ylum.cgd.ucar.edu>
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Subject: Colored tape
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.214359.19075@ncar.ucar.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep04.210723.14573@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Why do we use colored tape to identify sides in large battles?  By doing
>so, we are introducing a modern solution to a problem that we could be
>solving in medieval ways.  Confusion of sides happened in medieval warfare
>and tournaments, and they developed ways to deal with it: heraldry, war
>cries, and strategies that prevented this kind of confusion.  Am I missing
>something?  If not, why don't we do away with it once and for all?
>===========================================================================
>Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com


Greetings to all and sundry from Alexandre,

Such a little thing he said up there, and yet, I think, quite profound in
its own way.

        The easy counter-argument is that in medieval warfare and tourneys
the participants did it much more often and so such measures worked better.
Or to phrase it in a less flattering way - it's too hard to do without tape.

        But, I can't help but think to myself - how hard would it be, really,
to make up tabards for one's troops, to learn enough heraldry to identify
friendly units - at least those from the kingdom, and so on.

        Not terribly, is my gut reaction.  This idea appeals to me so 
instinctively, I am hard put to say why.

        Here is something, though.  At wars (or Grand Tournaments:-), the most
impressive spectacle in the actual fighting, is seeing the liveried units
march out.  I use liveries here in a very loose sense, units with shields
with the same device count.  If there were no tape, such things might be 
encouraged.

        Arval, what a great idea, that hit me square in a blind-spot.


badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Seneschal of Caer Galen, Outlands
               nexus@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"You're still doing the things that I gave up years ago.."-----Lou Reed

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 22:38:31 GMT
From: Stanley Friesen <swf@teradata.com>
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit
Subject: Accents (was Re: COVINGTON CROSS)
Message-Id: <1012@tdat.teradata.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.arts.sf.written
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <4ebWUNW00WBKM1TYxz@andrew.cmu.edu> bt16+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bill Thomas) writes:
|
|Help me out a little here, you medieval historians, but in a show about
|14th century English knights, the majority of characters would have
|primarily spoken NORMAN FRENCH.

Nope, Norman French faded out somewhere around the time of Richard the
Lionhearted (plus or minus one king).  Somewhat later there was a French
revival, using late Middle French or early Modern French (but most
certainly Parisian, not Norman).  But I think the aristocratic revival
was *15th* century.

Thus, everyone would have been speaking Middle English, perhaps with
Parisien French being used at Royal Court or at big gala parties (for
the purpose of being 'in').

|The knights would have been the
|descendants of William the Conqueror's Norman cronies, who swarmed into
|England after Hastings, built castles to defend themselves against the
|general populace, and continued their marauding, horse-riding Norman
|ways.

Not by that late a date.  This was well after the French had forced
the English nobles to relinquish thier French lands.  They were,
by the 13th century, thoroughly English.

Besides, all of the English kings forbad nobles building castles without
a permit (which they only gave reluctantly).  It was only under King
Stephen that the king was too weak to enforce this law, so in 13th century
England there were few non-royal castles, and those were mostly in the
hands of the major barons.  A mere knight would hardly have one.

|Which brings us back to Robin Hood and Kevin Costner. In most Robin Hood
|legends, Robin is a member of the pre-William nobility (so his father
|would not have had a castle, by the way -- a Norman "innovation"), who
|became a sort of anti-Norman guerrilla. 

This is the romanticized interpretation now given to him.
But he was rather too late in time for that to be believable, since
the Norman nobility was already switching to English, and to English
customs at the earliest date suggested for Robin Hood.
[Actually, if you want to retain the current traditional date and locale
for Robin Hood the only likely personage was a minor *Norman* noble
named Robert de Burun, who had lands near Nottingham Forest, and who
'disappeared' for a few years about the right time.  But more likely
is that Robin Hood was a 14th/15th century highwayman in Yorkshire].

| NO WAY would the Sheriff of Nottingham
|have spoken anything other than French. 

More likely he would have spoken both.  French for dealing with the nobles,
and English for dealing with the royal bailiffs.


-- 
sarima@teradata.com                     (formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 23:27:55 GMT
From: Tom Perigrin <tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu>
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group
Subject: Colored tape
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.232755.13937@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Howdy, from Tom Perigrin

        The questions about tape, etc... put me in mind of how we did it in the
Sealed Knot in England.   First of all, let me describe the size of the 
problem.

A Major Muster (about 3 or 4 each summer) would pull from 6000 to 10000 people
(one of the advnatges of being on a small densely populated island).
About half and half Caviliers and Roundheads.   There we no uniform 
identifying marks, although individual units might have a green coat, 
a sprig of holly, or a white ribband.   I think I saw the Parlimentarians
all wear white ribbons,  but only once.

Instead, order was maintined by chain of command.  Each regiment consisted
of "the troops", a few corporals, a seargent or two, a leiutenant, and a 
captain.    The general officers would send runners to the captains to tell 
them what to do... they would tell the leutenants,  who, in the fashion of
leutenants since time began, would mess up the orders they pased on to
the seargents...

It is the duty of the captains to know the other captains, and to
maintain unit discipline.   As a leutenant of the artilliary,  it
wasn't my job (strictly) to know "who that block of pike was".   All
I knew was that a captain would tell me to reduce that group over there
to a bloodly pulp resembling nothing so much as grape preserves,  and I 
would endevour to do my best...

It was often the case that if a leutenant and captain were killed, that
a regiment of 50 to 200 troops would withdraw from the feild until
a new officer structure was promoted from the outside to lead them.

Individual troops were not trusted with powers of discrimination.  
History is rife with examples of troops firing upon their own
side,  and even cases where the beseiged fired at thier own walls
through the smoke !!!!

All of this is post 1550,  so I do not know how applicable this is to
600 - 1550.

Tom

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 22:34:25 GMT
From: Alan Kerr <awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Subject: safety for marshals
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.223425.22823@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep04.175328.20709@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!  Aldric wrote:
>
>> ...so what else is used in the other laural kindoms and would it be
>> possible to come up with some sort of 'standard' to be used
>> everywhere?  and how hard would this be?
>
>Why do we need a standard?  Currently, the system is fairly clear: Anyone
>on the field who isn't in armor isn't a legal target.  Are there many cases
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of marshalls and scouts being hit by fighters?  Is there really a problem
>here to be solved?

the above is part of the problem.  The marshals that I have seen hit
(actually, most have been 'nearly' hit) are the one that wear that
'puffy' High Renassaince garb *and* have a similar looking set of
'puffy' armor.  Except for the helm, you really can't tell if they're
in armor or not.  ...and from the back, it can be *real* hard.  The
thing that saved most of the marshals is the person that would have
struck them noticed that he didn't have a helm while waiting to engage
him.

and to Mark (Tibor), I see your point about scouts.  I still would
like something more quickly recognizable for marshals.

another problem is that a *moving* marshal (who is obviously avoiding
the fighting) can often look like a 'flanker'.  There are many
fighters that will throw a 'defencive shap shot' in the direction of a
flanker that they *just* noticed out of the corner of their eye.

and to address the question of whether there is a problem.... I don't
think there is...*yet*.  But as the SCA grows, I see it becoming a
problem soon.  As larger and larger battles are fought, the safety
problem becomes greater.  I rather see this addressed and *something*
come out of it before large melees start becoming less fun due to the
danger and 'little accidents'.

Aldric MacGlynn

-- 
Alan W. Kerr                               awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu
National Radio Astronomy Observatory       awkerr@nrao.bitnet
Socorro, NM, USA                           uunet!nrao.edu!awkerr

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 17:29:06 +0200
Message-Id: <199209051529.AA07728@meryl.csd.uu.se>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: witches; same sex consorts
From: "]ke Eldberg" <vader@meryl.csd.uu.se>

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu writes:

>...it states quite clearly in the section of the Corpora on religious
>freedom / tolerance that symbols may not be displayed which might be
>termed coercive, intolerant, etc. by anyone else. Personally, I don't
>see why everybody and their brother gets to put crosses on their arms
>and i can't use a pentacle when the known cases of witches burning
>Christians at the stake is in the negative numbers, as opposed to the
>opposite case...

Just an observation: It is a common mistake to identify modern "witches"
with medieval ones. Witchcraft today is a "new-age" religion with femin-
ist, environmentalist and other modern connotations. The modern witches
are generally decent. 

But for the vast majority of people, the word "witch" means something
else. Regardless of what medieval and renaissance witches were really
like, they are perceived as evildoers, women who sold their souls to
the devil, sabotaged their neighbours farms by magic, stole and ate
children, put spells on men and used them for satanistic orgies, etc.

If that image of witches had been correct, burning them would have
been a good thing.

This image is but slowly changing, and we are coming to realize that
most of the women accused of being witches had never practised any
form of witchcraft whatsoever. They were just people who attracted
xenophobia by being different in some way. Others were "wise women"
who helped people with primitive medicine, birth control, and so on.

It remains that modern witches have as little to do with their early
counterparts as Mother Theresa has to do with the Spanish Inquisition.
 
>As for the same-sex consort question:
 
>Homosexual couples may not be period but neither is women's rights or
>tolerance towards Jews or many other things we could name. We don't
>not do those things just because they're not period, so not being period
>isn't really that good a criterion.
>-------Above quoted VERBATIM from Etain macDhomhnuill.

Womens rights and tolerance towards Jews are seldom a visible part of
the official functions of the Society. Where a medieval King may have
treated Jews disparagingly, SCA kings merely ignore the religion of
their subjects. And I cannot think of any way in
which oppression of women in the middle ages was an important, visible
part of public life. 99 times of 100, you could probably walk down the
street of a medieval town without seeing any Jews being persecuted or
any women being beaten. Omitting these things from our re-creation does
not in any way detract from the percieved realism thereof.

A same-sex couple on the thrones would be different in that it is an
obviously non-period thing at the very focus of official SCA life.


Again, we return to the question of courtesy and offensiveness. There
are many people in the SCA who seriously believe that homosexual acts
are a sin against God. This opens the question whether a good Christian
can serve a King & Queen who are openly living in defiance of Gods
commandments.

Respect for other peoples integrity makes us leave their homosexual
acts up to their own consciences. But if their homosexuality becomes
an openly displayed part of their official functions in the Society,
accepting such a royal couple may be seen as giving sanction to their
sins and their lack of repentance. My position is that I probably
could not give allegiance to such a couple. 

Please understand that this is not an easy question for me; I realize
that my position may logically imply that I should make moral judgements
on all rulers, and withdraw my services from anyone who is openly living
in defiance of God... and how could I??? I have friends who, in my defini-
tion, may possibly be mass murderers (doctors who perform abortions) --
but since I like them, I prefer not to *know*. This makes me a hypocrite,
I guess.

William

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 16:51:37 GMT
From: Sam Bassett <optilink!samlb@bloom-beacon.mit.edu>
Organization: Gnarsty old tale-teller
Subject: Aragonese Fealty ?
Message-Id: <12149@optilink.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep3.235203.15864@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:
>"We, who are worth as much as you, make you our King and
>Lord, provided that you guard for us our fueros and liberties, and if not,
>not."
>
>Sorry to disappoint, but as a fealty oath, it's a myth.

        Rats!

        . . . And it was such a _nice_ myth -- fiction, you know, is
sometimes _better_ than reality, if not alwaays _stranger_ . . .

:-)


-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator         (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com                  UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 16:45:53 GMT
From: Sam Bassett <optilink!samlb@bloom-beacon.mit.edu>
Organization: Crusty old curmudgeon
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <12148@optilink.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep3.212202.26775@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu> cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles) writes:
>My idea is to make the Rialto "slightly moderated," in that it could
>have subject-area moderators.

        I'm agin it -- too much work for som poor sod (the way that
Usenet works, there can really only be _one_ moderator), and it would cut
down on the free flow of ideas & opinions.
        Despite the recent rash of people flicking lit matches at each
other over the net here, I still prefer an open, unmoderated forum.


-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator         (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com                  UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 21:54:18 -0500
From: Dave Aronson <Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org>
Subject: MAILING LIST: siege engineering
Message-Id: <715665695.F00004@blkcat.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Sebastian (amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)) writeth:

 AS>    SIEGE MAILING LIST
 AS>      (Plan, hopes and dreams....)

Let me take the opportunity to point out to Fidonetters that it is available
here as the SIEGE echo, absorbed the same way as Bardic and Heralds.

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 21:40:10 -0500
From: Dave Aronson <Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org>
Subject: Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
Message-Id: <715665695.F00003@blkcat.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Nicholas van Leyden (ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)) wrighteth :-)

 EVW> I may be mistaken, but I believe I read somewhere in the Pennsic 
 EVW> information booklet that quiet hours began at midnight.

I think it was later than that, but your point remains valid, that it was
regularly violated with impunity.  Perhaps a "quiet end" could be instituted
like at other events.  Envision the land grab after a few decades:

 "How many people in your encampment?"
 "Five."
 "You get 1150 square feet.  Want to buy any more?"
 "Yes, we'd like 200 extra square feet."
 "That's $200.  Partying, or non-partying?"
 "Partying."
 "Period, or non-period?"
 "Non-period."
 "Fighting, or non-fighting?"
 . . .

B-)

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 21:59:28 -0500
From: Dave Aronson <Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org>
Subject: Inspiration (was Re: consort gender)
Message-Id: <715665695.F00001@blkcat.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Linda of the lakelands (lindal@goddess.asd.sgi.com (Linda Levy)) writeth:

 LL> I've had
 LL>  gentleman that I don't know walk up to me the eveing before a crown
 LL>  and ask if they could fight for me. Is it better to tactfully turn 
 LL> them down, or assume that they are, in fact, inspired by me, and let
 LL>  them fight. I would have problems with the latter, 
 LL> due to the oath of invocation where we swear to serve 
 LL> if we win. How do I know if I would 
 LL> be ABLE to serve with this person? Am I taking the whole thing too 
 LL> seriously?

No, I don't think you're taking it too seriously.  If your champion wins, you
will be in close proximity with him for many many hours during your reign; the
implications of letting strangers fight for you should thus be clear!  Your
query re being able to serve with this person is right on the mark.  IMHO, the
proper response would have been a polite declining - perhaps couched in a
suggestion that if you knew him better, you might allow him to.

 -----------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 20:52:20 -0500
From: Dave Aronson <Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org>
Subject: period songs
Message-Id: <715665695.F00002@blkcat.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Richard Fitzgilbert (sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman)) writeth:

 JS> Under this definition of period you make it impossible
 JS> to compose new material that is period.
 JS> For my own definition of period, a song that is composed and
 JS> presented exactly in a period fashion is period.
 JS> If I make a replica of a
 JS> period pavillion, using period tools and period 
 JS> materials I call it a period pavillion.

There is an intrinsic difference between a song and a pavillion.  The song is an
idea; the pavillion is an object.  So how to compare the two?  Compare not the
song and the pavillion, but the song and the DESIGN of the pavillion (the ideas
they embody), or the PERFORMANCE of the song and the pavillion (the physical
results).  Just as it is impossible (under my defs) to compose new material that
is period, it is impossible to make a new pavillion DESIGN that is period.  Just
as it is impossible to have a pavillion that is itself genuinely period, no
matter how period the design, since by now it would be mere rags at best, it is
impossible to hear a genuinely period performance, no matter how period the
song, since there were no sound recording devices then.

You CAN, though, make a non-period pavillion of period design, and hear a
non-period performance of a period song.  Or you can write (or perform) a song
or design (or build) a pavillion that is what some call "perioid" - it wasn't
actually written or designed in period, but SOUNDS/LOOKS it.  This is what I
think you were referring to as "in period fashion".  The problem with that (not
for practical use, but as a standard) is that it almost ALWAYS has mistakes in
it.  Just when you think you've perfected a nice pavillion design that looks
straight out of 13th century Persia, along comes Master Whatsisname (with a
Laurel in tentmaking), who says "Persian tentmakers didn't use that sort of seam
until the 16th century and then they used larger stitches, the type of fabric is
too light to take the tension they used, they never staked ropes that far and
the stakes were thinner and longer, etc. etc. etc.".  So much for that example
of "in period fashion".  Now what was "period" by your standard no longer is. 
So much for the standard.

The problem (strictly one of semantics) under my definition arises when one
claims a pavillion to be period - what one *really* means, and is generally
understood, is not that the pavillion itself is period, but its design.  The
problem doesn't happen with songs because when one performs a period song, one
says one is performing a period song, not that one is giving a period
performance (which if it's happening right now obviously isn't period).

(BTW: The second paragraph is not intended as a lampoon of anybody who may
happen to have a Laurel in tentmaking; I don't even know if there are any.)

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 22:16:29 GMT
From: Nils Hammer <nh0g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Subject: parking//diesel pests
Message-Id: <kedy0xu00VpB4O3V9Z@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

If people want more enforcement of pennsic parking rules, they should
get more people to volunteer for security. I felt that I did not have enough
time to keep track of all cars staying too long in camp in my patrol zone. I 
mostly used polite reminders. Some of my people volunteered for security
too much. So, please encourage more people to volunteer, make it a 
household thing.

   I had also assumed that the truckers were vicariously enjoying pennsic, 
but this year I have been "corrected." I  was told that certain women 
camping near the road traditionally would take their shirts off when 
trucks honked for them. If you want them to stop honking, I figure the
best way would be to have more women camp near the road with their
shirts off, who PUT them ON when the trucks honk ;-)

Nils K. Hammer
nh0g@andrew.cmu.edu

 -----------------------------

Date: Thu,  3 Sep 92 16:41:41 EDT
From: Jeff Lee <smylex!jlee@bloom-beacon.mit.edu>
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)
Subject: Using period words to refer to mundanities
Message-Id: <425-JNEWS-2.1@smylex.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Godfrey!

Lothar wrote:
>
>    As a general rule, I like to use words that ignore or conceal an
> item's modern origins, rather than coming up with a cutesy term that
> points out the fact that it is strange and that I am trying to hide the
> fact. (Ex. wagon instead of dragon for car, garderobe instead of
> portacastle for nasty chemical toilet at Pennsic).

Anyone have any other examples of this type of thing that they like to
use?  I myself prefer to use period words (I like "boggard" instead of 
port-a-john, myself), and am always on the lookout for others...

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:57:04 GMT
From: "That's RAEDWYNN, dammit!" <tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu>
Organization: Brandeis University
Subject: consort gender
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.005704.8573@news.cs.brandeis.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

um, Arval...

I must beg to take mild issue with your delicately put and yet puzzling
sentence:
"The swastika and the pentagram may not be registered in SCA armory
because the corporation does not want to give its sanction to the use of
these symbols which are intimately associated in the modern mind with
mass murder."
In the first place:
As a witch I would like you to clarify just why you think the public
associates "mass murder" with pentagrams? Weird things, bizarre cults,
but I have never seen a pentacle get the kind of negative reaction one
has to a swastika. Yes, the general public is uneducated and fearful
about Wicca; but they _know_ what a swastika means, and they're right
to be afraid and/or offended. I don't like your placing these symbols
in the same category. BUT...
In the second place:
The society is not interested in whether or not it might give it's "sanction"
to these symbols by allowing them to be displayed; it states quite clearly
in the section of the Corpora on religious  freedom / tolerance that
symbols may not be displayed which might be termed coercive, intolerant,
etc. by anyone else. Personally, I don't see why everybody and their brother
gets to put crosses on their arms and i can't use a pentacle when the known
cases of witches burning Christians at the stake is in the negative
numbers, as opposed to the opposite case, but I am not prepared to 
attack the Corpora on this point. The _idea_ behind it is, as always, 
courtesy. Displaying the swastika is worse than discourteous, it is insulting
and terrifying. Apparently some people feel the same way about pentacles,
so i don't display them. My point is, it's not a question of whether or
not the society gives it's "sanction" (as if most people would care if
the "society", a large and seemingly impersonal organization the way you
phrase it, _would_) it's just a question of the society wanting, however
misguidedly, to preserve the freedom and happiness of its members.

As for the same-sex consort question:
I've avoided putting my $4 in so far. I've seen some truly homophobic
answers, some merely stupid answers, and some vaguely acceptable answers
(though one of the best of the latter, "It's not period," is, as far as 
I'm concerned, balderdash. These are the CURRENT Middle Ages, and thank
whatever deities you like we've progressed since the last ones. We don't
tax serfs into the ground these days either (well, WE don't :-) nor do
we lop the heads off of people we don't like for a living. 

But my lady asks me to pass on this message:
If I were fighting, and had to designate a lord rather than my lover/
wife/sweetie as my "inspiration", then I wouldn't be fighting for the
honor of my true love, I'd be fighting for some schmoe. This goes directly
against the chivalric ideal that Arval says is the whole reason for the
idea in the first place.
So sorry, that reasoning won't stand.

Homosexual couples may not be period but neither is women's rights or
tolerance towards Jews or many other things we could name. We don't
not do those things just because they're not period, so not being period
isn't really that good a criterion.
----------Above quoted VERBATIM from Etain macDhomhnuill.

So that's what I (and my sweetie) have to say.

--Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu

Raedwynn the Loudmouthed
Judith L. Tabron                Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu
Dept. of English Lit.           Yasun Bogeleku
Brandeis University             Household of the Great Dark Horde
Waltham, MA                     (currently scouti-- LIVING in Carolingia)
        SAXON MONGOLS UNITE!
Darwin's Law -- If you're Dumb, you Die!

 -----------------------------

End of SCA Digest
******************************

------------------------------

End of SCA Digest
******************************
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet