From: crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Religion & Physics Don't Mix (really Khufu's Pyramid)
Date: 23 Nov 92 04:31:27 GMT
Followup-To: sci.archaeology
Organization: University of Virginia


     Followups have been set to sci.archaeology entirely since our
     previous debate seems to be entirely absent.

In article <1992Nov23.021441.7938@reks.uia.ac.be> gustin@evs2.uia.ac.be (Emmanuel Gustin) writes:
>I did read the discussion concerning the building of the pyramid of Cheops.
>Now I would agree that we don't know how many man-hours it took to build this
>enormous 'rockpile'. Of course it is an oversimplification to describe the
>pyramids as 'rockpiles', because 1) There are not all built entirely of
>stone, 2) there is quite some architectional knowledge needed to build
>one, 3) They were surrounded by temples and other buildings. 
 
     It *is* an enormous rockpile, of one form of rock or another.
     This certainly should not be construed to denigrate the achievement.
     The Caliph Malek al Azis Othman apparently ordered the
     pyramids to be destroyed in the eleventh century AD.  After 
     large numbers of people worked on the pyramid of Menkaure for 
     about eight months (on a much easier task that required to 
     quarry and build them), they gave up in disgust having only
     put a small dent in one side.

     And I agree that the rest of the Giza necropolis (and
     Sakkara etc.) constitutes an additional amazing achievement.

     I just feel that twenty years is a bit to short to have done the
     deed, or alternatively, they had techniques that we did not know they
     had.  Also the idea that they are simply big rock tombs seems to me
     fantastic.

>There have actually been speculations that one of the pyramids of Snofru (in
>Sakkara, I think) actually collapsed under its own weight because of bad
>calculations, and the pyramid of Cheops is not a simple rockpile.

     That is the pyramid at Meidum.  Seems like reasonable speculation,
     as does the speculation that the Bent Pyramid's angle was changed
     in the wake of such an event to avoid such an occurrence.  It is,
     however, still speculation.

     This manner of civil engineering is certainly not unprecedented.
    
>The fact seemingly forgotten in this discussion is that while the exact
>people working on the pyramids is not exactly known, it is  generally agreed
>that many of them must have been skilled workers. They did have the

     The number of skilled workers 'agreed upon' has been the subject
     of a great deal of controversy.  Generally we have no good idea
     of numbers, methods, or much of anything else during Khufu's,
     or even Khafre's reigns.  And Snofru apparently built himself 
     *three* large pyramids.  We know next to nothing, though, about 
     Snofru's predecessor Huni who may have ruled for more than 
     twenty years.

>ability to cut these large stones precisely and transport them safely.
>Other people must have build the surrounding temples, embellish them, make
>the ritual boats that were buried around the pyramids, and do other work
>that we have no knowledge of. They can hardly have been all just temporarly
>workless farmers. Of course Cheops and his colleagues must have made good
>use of these people, but he couldn't rely on them to do all the work. It
>is speculation, but my guess is that he had a group of specialists working
>for him throughout the year, and used the farmers only for the transporting
>of the stones -- and to pay taxes. Under the reign of later pharaos there
>was actually a community of people, having their own little city, to dig
>the kings grave. 

     You are correct, this is again speculation.

[stuff deleted]
>
>It is not pure speculation to say that the pyramids were tombs.  Some
>sarcophagusses have been found. The pyramid of Djoser can be considered as a
>continuation of the Mastaba-grave. The grave of the king was always
>something of big importance in Egyptian culture. It is true that Snofru
>had three pyramids, two more than he needed. However, they are all
>different, and this suggests a seeking for improvement. Or maybe he wanted
>to demonstrate his power by exaggeration, or decided to be dead in good
>company and built one for some god. The fact that we don't know is not a
>good counterargument. 

     A number of boxes have been found.  It is speculation to call
     them sarcophagi.  In the unfinished pyramid near Zoser's step
     pyramid, a sealed 'tomb' was found in 1954 to contain a sealed
     'sarcophagus' which contained, as usual, nothing.  Even the 'tomb'
     of Hetepheres (Khufu's mother), found at the base of the Great
     Pyramid in 1925 was found to have a sealed 'sarcophagus' that 
     contained nothing.  Her viscera *were* found found in a chest
     in the tomb (as well as some rather beautiful furniture), but
     no body.  It is not unreasonable to suggest that our identification
     of every large box as a sarcophagus may well be flawed. 

     In addition the pyramid of Khaba, the ruined one at Meidum, the Bent
     pyramid, the northern pyramid at Dahshur, and the pyramid of
     Djedefre at Abu Roash show no evidence of ever having had
     'sarcophagi'.   That means, of the nine large pyramids excluding
     Zoser's, only four even had the boxes.  And one of them, in the
     pyramid of Sekhemket, was another sealed empty box. Also, the
     one in Menkaure's pyramid was probably a Saite intrusion.  Unfortunately,
     it lies on the bottom of the Mediterranean, so we won't know
     with any certainty until and unless someone retrieves it.

     It is not unreasonable to suggest that the large pyramids held some
     liturgical purpose, but why no evidence of burial and why several per
     ruler at times?  The only body parts to ever be found in a large
     pyramid were intrusions dated to well after the time they were built.

     In any case, tradition has it that Khufu is buried *below* his
     pyramid.  While we can be pretty certain that there are
     no large chambers in most of the Great Pyramid (due to remote sensing), 
     the same cannot be said for the ground under it.   I have
     this feeling that there are still interesting things to be
     discovered at Giza.

                               dale bass



-- 
C. R. Bass                                          crb7q@virginia.edu        
Department of Mechanical, 
     Aerospace and Nuclear Engineering
University of Virginia                              (804) 924-7926
Newsgroups: sci.physics