HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bob@ncube.com (Bob Kehoe)
Subject: Other Vancouver Results (for Ben)
Organization: nCUBE Computers, Beaverton, Oregon, U.S.A.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:29:11 GMT

Ben Bradley - ask and ye shall receive:

Firestone Indy Lights results from Vancouver
1.  Mark Smith, McMinneville, OR (finally Mark was able
to get his act together)
2.  Robbie Buhl
3.  Sandy Brody
4.  Franck Freon
5.  Flyin Bryan Herta
6.  Elton Julian
7.  David Kudrave
8.  Scott Maxwell (?)(Canada)
9.  Adrian Fernandez
10. Robbie Groff
11. Mike Snow
12. Mark Ritchey
13. George Sutcliffe
14. Kathryn Teasdale
15. Bob Dorricott

Time of race: 57min,37.506 seconds (45 laps)
MOV: 29.747
Distance: 75.465 miles

Notes:  I guess Smith snookered the rest of the field.
Apparently, there was some rain during the course of the
race.  Everyone but Smith dove in for rain tires, but he
stayed out.  Track went dry shortly thereafter and he
got his first win in a frustrating season.  Remember, his
car was deemed illegal after qualifying at Cleveland (titanium
radiators or something like that).

For what it's worth dept:  Haven't seen Vince Neal around lately.
Must've had some gigs to do.

I told you so dept:  It was announced that Adrian Fernandez has
signed on to be a test driver next year for Galles, with the possitility
of doing a few IndyCar races for the team.  Curious about sponsorship
(Adrian is tied to Amway almost to the same extent as Scotty Brayton/
Dick Simon).

Fernandez and Buhl are still 1-2 in points, with 3 races remaining.

American Cities Racing League Results (S2000 carz)
1.  John Hill, Team Seattle
2.  Jeff Clegg, Team Vancouver
3.  Dave Welch, Team San Jose
4.  Sue Clegg, Team Vancouver
5.  John Laakman, Team Spokane
7.  Arli Goldberg, Team San Diego
8.  Rick Eppinger, Team Portland
18. Bob Lesnett, Team Las Vegas
20. Margie Smith-Haas, Team San Diego (sumthin' must've happened -
will have to give Margie a call)

Originally scheduled for 20 laps, shortened to 15 due to time
contraints.
Only four green flag laps, first two and final two (great for the
spectators!).

Note to Ben:  If I get Mario as a guest on the PITSTOP, I fully
expect you to call and talk with him personally :-)

-c'ball-

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
Subject: Re: F1: Silly season continues...
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: 31 Aug 92 00:56:36 GMT

In <5223@sersun1.essex.ac.uk> aghao@sersun2.essex.ac.uk (Aghanya O A) writes:

>Greetings.

>Senna?  Well, he IS the rank outsider, trying to spoil the party for the
>other drivers.  However, he IS also quite right, the choice of driver should be
>based purely on competence at the wheel, and not on nationality.  He has as
>much right to chase after a Williams berth as anyone else, and would be
>justifiably miffed if he was prevented from having a fair crack at the 1993 
>title simply because he was Brazilian.  He will also come cheap...

Well, call me anti-social, but surely the team owner has the right to
decide who he employs? Competance behind the wheel is a small part of
being a racing driver (especially nowadays) - he's got to be able to 
communicate with his engineer, meet sponsors, (ideally) get on with
his teammate. Teams employ the drivers, and have the right to expect
the driver to put the team first.

'Just because he's Brazilian' implys racism (or countryism?) making
the decision, where it's far more likely to be commercial reasons, or
even patriotism.

>Erm, yes.  I think all of a sudden, being in control of a $50M operation is
>rather less fun than I might have imagined earlier.  Maybe that's why Frank
>always looks cold...

According to the Murray and James show of the Belgian GP, all three 
drivers are angry at the way Willams is jerking them around. So it
seems that FW has the upper hand here.

regards,
-- 
thos cohen  				       |Softway Pty Ltd
 The best way to make a Japanese engineer wince|ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 is (when talking about an NSX) to say slowly  |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 'but its _not a Ferrari_ is it?' R.Bulgin, CAR|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: GR743@uacsc2.albany.edu (Greg Rickes)
Subject: Re: Bubba (NASCAR)
Organization: University at Albany, Albany NY 12222
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 92 09:02:33 EDT

Picking up on a thread that Matt Lallo kind of started
with his U.S. vs. European comparison, there seems to
be a significant difference in how a driver makes
progression up the ladder, specifically comparing
NASCAR and top line Euro single seater racing.
 
In much of Euro racing it seems you must buy your
way up the ladder. A driver signs on with a Formula
Ford prep outfit in England, paying for the drive.
With on-track success abd off-track marketing acumen
a good performer might then buy a drive with a good
F3 outfit like WSR, then repeat the process into
F3000, maybe WSC, and finally F1. Most F1 drives
seem to be contingent on the driver bringing money,
only the top six teams or so reversing the pattern.
 
Prize money in Euro racing is pretty thin, especially
compared to costs, and its personal service contracts
and sponsorship that keep the much of the deal afloat.
 
By contrast it seems that in NASCAR it still is possible
to assemble a team, start off racing locally, move to
second or third division travelling series, like BGN,
All-Pro, SW Tour ,etc, and pick up sponsor support
along the way. The prize money payouts seem to do a
lot more toward keeping teams in the running. Its
even possible for whole teams to stick together
in moving up the ranks, whereas the Euro scene
sees drivers moving while teams are fixed, and experts
in, certain formulae.
 
On balance, IMHO NASCAR is much more of meritocracy
based on performance, i.e. winners can advance
through the ranks, than Euro, which is still more
elitist. Even Senna paid for his drives up to
and perhaps even including early efforts in F1.
 
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: F1: No Williams for Senna in 93
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 13:19:55 GMT

In article <5243@sersun1.essex.ac.uk>, aghao@sersun2.essex.ac.uk (Aghanya O A)
writes:

|>I have extremely mixed feelings about this announcement for all sorts of
|>reasons.  I deplore it, because one of the best drivers ever is probably
|>going
|>to be lost to us for at least a season, and that IS a true loss.  I also feel
|>sorry for the guy, because he has been shabbily treated, and as I have a
|>great
|>deal of respect for him, I somehow would rather it was someone else rather
|>than
|>him.

If he hadn't crashed to steal the Championship title Prost might have had a
higher opinion of him. As it is Senna has made his bed and must lie in it. If
Senna had acted earlier he could have got Prosts seat *if* Williams thought him
the better driver that is. 


|>On the other hand, I have to say that I can clearly remember him doing 
|>somehing similar in 1985 or 1986 to Martin Brundle (I think), who he
|>expressly
|>prevented from joining Lotus by prevailing on the team management.  What goes
|>around comes around, as they say.  Similarly, as I said in an earlier post,
|>I think he was always the least likely to get a Williams berth next season
|>out of the three, simply because Mansell already had his fat arse on one, and
|>|>Prost was being guided to his by Renault and Elf.  Realistically, the
|>only way Senna was/is going to get a Williams drive in 93 is if Mansell quits
|>for whatever reason, because the team cannot afford to be seen to be firing 
|>him, rightly or wrongly.  

Senna vs Mansell would have been interesting. Mansell vs Prost is just as
interesting. Senna vs Prost in the same team would bea continuous pitched
battle.


|>So, there may be 2 McLaren seats available in 93.  You know the funniest
|>thing?  Martin Brundle is seen as one of the likely candidates for one of
|>them, as are Mark Blundell and Michele Alboreto.  The most ironic thing would
|>be if McLaren got a good engine deal together for 93, and then proceeded to
|>thrash Williams into the ground...

Rmember the start of this season when McLaren started a hot favorite to remain
dominant, then the car was late and not up to scratch. Williams could still blow
it and let another team in. I think Benneton is more likely to be the main
challenger though.


--

Phill Hallam-Baker
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry)
Subject: Re: F1: world sport? 
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 20:20:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

agwiii@fang.att.com (Grayson Walker (660-7949)(12/92)) writes:
>>>>>And remember, F1 is a world sport and this is a world net. 
>>>
>>>>Wrong, F1 is a European sport.
>>
>This year we have races in South Africa, Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Japan, and
>Australia; six races out of sixteen. We have a *MAJOR* engine supplier from
>Japan (Honda) with potential for more. We have a *MAJOR* engine supplier in
>FORD. Question is, with multinational corporations, how do you assign
>nationality? Could Ford UK do something against the wishes of Ford USA? 

Ford UK and Ford USA products do not compete in the same market, so the odds
of Ford UK doing something against the wishes of Ford USA is remote.
Ford UK does its product planning independently of Ford USA (how many common
products are there between Ford USA and Ford Europe?).

>Mmmm, tires. Same question as Ford. Is Goodyear a USA corporation or ??????
>
>Mmmmm, drivers. Since 1906, there have been periods where either nations or
>continents seemed to dominate the competition. Today, we have a top rank
>from Brazil and another from England.
>
>Mmmmm, sponsors. Marlboro and Camel come to mind. Aren't they from
>North Carolina?

Do you mean Marlboro Finland and Marlboro Germany and Marlboro <insert
country here>?  When I met the Camel folks who sponsored Lotus (way back
when), they were all English.

>F1 a European sport, yes. A South American Sport, yes. An American Sport,
>yes. A Japanese Sport, yes. An Australian Sport, yes. A South African
>Sport, yes. In addition to all this, are there clearly national forms of
>racing that also exist, YES!

As much as I am an F1 fanatic, I cannot consider F1 an American sport at this
time.  There are no American drivers, no American teams, no American event,
very little American interest.  One American corporation is involved
in a major way (Goodyear) and one American is majorly involved through
a subsidiary (Ford).  That does not constitute an American sport.  I wish
that were not the case, but that's life.

On the other hand, that does not mean that F1 is not an international
sport.  F1 competition is held through FISA, the sports arm of the FIA,
the international organization of the automobile, which all major auto
manufacturers are a member of.  Given the make-up of the membership of 
the FIA, if they say a series is international, it is international.
However, since they are supposed to be international, they should
consider it as embarrassment that they don't hold an F1 event in the U.S.

alan
From: D.S.Walker@bradford.ac.uk (Simeon Walker)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: More whining about F1 being international
Date: 4 Sep 92 12:09:50 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 91909178@occam

In article <vslnrck.esprit@netcom.com> esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry) writes:
>From: jsmith@eoe.co.uk (James G Smith)
>>esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry) writes:
>
>Are you saying that it would be OK if FISA dropped the British GP or
>the Italian GP?
>
This question would never arise since there is an enourmous intersest
in F1 in both Britain and Italy, as is the case with the other countries
where F1 GPs are regularly held. This just isn't the case in the US.

>If what you claim about circuits being chosen being based on who
>gets there first with the most money, why has the schedule of races
>changed little in the last few years?  Why did FISA cancel its contract
>with the city of Phoenix (the money was there first!)?  As far as TV
>rights go, it doesn't matter where you hold the race. 
>
Although there may be enough interest in the US to merit TV companies
paying large ammounts of money this is due to the large population and
not to a large percentage of a population being interested. Perhaps this
has some bearing on FISAs decision. However, I do not think it was the 
right decision, if a GP was regulary held in the US then more interest
could be generated.

[ stuff I have nothing to say about deleted :-) ]

>>Remember the world is SLIGHTLY bigger than 250million USofA residents.
>
>That's nice.  I will try to remember that.
>
>alan


-- 
Sim. ----------------------------------------------------------- Simeon Walker,
----------------------------------------- Department of Electrical Engineering,
D.S.Walker@bradford.ac.uk -------------------- University of Bradford, England.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: dafuller@sequent.com (David Fuller)
Subject: Re: Bubba (NASCAR)
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 19:50:29 GMT

>Personally, I think the "pompous-assness" of politics should leave the GOBs
>alone & fraternize with some of the other popular forms of motorsports in
>this country.  Me & my pals Bubba want to watch some racin', and don't
>really care who waves that green flag on Sunday.

Politico: Are you sure that I should stand in the middle of the track
to wave the flag?

Flagman: Absolutely.  It's the way it's done... 
-- 
Dave Fuller		 	All opinions expressed are my own and not
Sequent Computer Systems	those of Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
dafuller@sequent.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: lallo@stsci.edu (Matthew D. Lallo,622,4577)
Subject: Re: F1: world sport? (was Re: Proposal: rec.au
Reply-To: lallo@stsci.edu
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore MD
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 21:24:18 GMT

In article 14247@tastesgreat.rutgers.edu, boubez@tastesgreat.rutgers.edu (Toufic Boubez) writes:
>cornutt@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (David Cornutt) writes:
>
>>lallo@stsci.edu (Matthew D. Lallo,622,4577) writes:
>
>>>And remember, F1 is a world sport and this is a world net. 
>
>>Wrong, F1 is a European sport.

Well I haven't included anything from all the followups but it should be clear by 
now that the large majority of people on this net agree with me.

Matt


Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
Subject: Lotus Works drivers and Ford Galaxies
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:52:53 GMT

In <1992Aug25.183341.21468@fang.att.com> agwiii@fang.att.com (Grayson Walker (660-7949)(12/92)) writes:

>>> I asked:
>>>Did the Team Lotus drivers ever drive any of the Galaxies
>>>that revolutionised British Saloon car racing in the early 60s?

>>>J.Francis answered:
>>I don't believe so.  To the best of my recollection they were all driving
>>Lotus Cortinas (a vehicle that showed that there was an other approach to a
>>winning car design than stuffing steroids down the throat of the powerplant).

>I think the big Galaxies were driven by (Jack?) Sears and (Maybe) Roy Salvadori???

Jack Sears definitely drove one, Sir Gawaine Bailley (sp?) drove another
but there were more than that around. I was wondering, based on a 
number of anecdotes and photos that I've seen, showing Chapman and
Clark with very large Fords.

regards,
-- 
thos cohen  				       |Softway Pty Ltd
 The best way to make a Japanese engineer wince|ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 is (when talking about an NSX) to say slowly  |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 'but its _not a Ferrari_ is it?' R.Bulgin, CAR|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: marti@nugget.inf.ethz.ch (Robert Marti)
Subject: Re: Other rumors (Was F1 News: Patrese to Benetton! (Brundle dropped))
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:34:00 GMT

Warning:  fasten seat belts, wild rumors ahead!

The newest edition of our local motorsports paper contained a few
wild rumors, yet again.  Indeed, I believe they are pure speculation
by one of their editors.

Williams may not take on Prost after all, as opposition in the
team is supposed to be mounting.  (I wonder what effect that
would have on getting Renault engines?)  Also, Williams is
supposedly very keen in signing Senna.  Moreover, there have
been no talks with Mansell since his Hungary GP win regarding
his driving for the team in 93.  The conclusion is that a team
like Senna/Patrese just might be possible.

McLaren is likely to lose both Senna and Berger, with Senna either
going to Williams or taking a year off, and Berger reportedly on
the brink of signing with Ferrari.  Therefore, they speculate that
Prost may return to McLaren, with Patrese [sic] as a possible 2nd
driver.  (It sure looks like a tough year for Patrese, having to
drive for Williams AND McLaren -- and maybe even Benetton ;-)
Nobody, including Ron Dennis, supposedly knows with what kind of
engines they'll drive.

Personal remark:  I'm not making these rumors up, but it sure
looks someone else does!  Any comments?

-- 
Robert Marti                    |  Phone:    +41 1 254 72 60
Informationssysteme             |  FAX:      +41 1 262 39 73
ETH-Zentrum                     |  E-Mail:   marti@inf.ethz.ch
CH-8092 Zurich, Switzerland     |
From: agwiii@fang.att.com (Grayson Walker (660-7949)(12/92))
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: A Funny Ole F1 World..........
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:29:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: fang.1992Sep2.142933.20356
Organization: AT&T Tax Systems Development, Maitland FL

While I certainly approve of the Walkerisms, I still don't understand
Hunt's tyre choice.
-- 
Grayson Walker                                           CHC, Maitland, Florida 
Forza!                                            Internet: agwiii@fang.att.com
Voice: 407 660 7949                        Big brown river..... Tuli Kupferberg
From: roberto@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (roberto)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Other rumors (Was F1 News: Patrese to Benetton! (Brundle dropped))
Date: 27 Aug 92 12:10:45 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
X-Mailer: mail-news 2.0.5

Robert Marti (marti@nugget.inf.ethz.ch) writes:

[rumours deleted]
 
| Personal remark:  I'm not making these rumors up, but it sure
| looks someone else does!  Any comments?

It sure looks those are nothing but rumours. 
So, let me have a guess as well.

Possibility one: Honda stays.

Williams: Mansell and Prost
McLaren:  Senna and Brundle/Patrese 
Ferrari:  Alesi and Berger
Benneton: Schumacher and Patrese/Brundle. 


Possibility two: Honda is out or Senna manages to get a Williams seat.

Williams: Senna/Mansell/Prost (two of them)
McLaren:  Michael Andretti(???) and Patrese/Brundle 
Ferrari:  Alesi and Berger
Benneton: Schumacher and Patrese/Brundle. 

Roberto Barros
From: roberto@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (roberto)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: F1 and Indy (Re: World or national series? )
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:42:45 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
X-Mailer: mail-news 2.0.5

Firstly, I think it makes no difference whether Indy is international or not, 
and whether it is less international than F1 or not. 

I think the biggest problem in claiming Indy is international is that the 
drivers and the GPs are almost all americans, i.e. from one country.

From the same point of view, I think claiming F1 is NOT international does not 
make any sense. Don't forget Europe is a continent, with far more countries 
than most others. That's probably the reason it has more GP's. 

If you are still not convinced, than you could also claim the Football (Soccer 
for you Americans) World Cup is also an European competition because the 
majority of the competitors is also from Europe (+/- 14 out of 24).

Roberto Barros
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: brims@bnkl01.astro.ucla.edu (George Brims)
Subject: Re: I had a (F1) dream...
eferences: <memo.601632@cix.compulink.co.uk> <1992Aug31.154928.18072@fang.att.com>
Organization: UCLA Dept of Astronomy
Date: 3 Sep 92 11:01:18 PDT

In article <1992Aug31.154928.18072@fang.att.com> agwiii@fang.att.com (Grayson Walker (660-7949)(12/92)) writes:
>shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>>I had a Formula 1 dream...and it DIDn't include:-
>>it was wonderful. 
>
>Me too! And the cars were painted in national colours.
>-- 
>Grayson Walker         

The usual American fascination with nationalism is creeping in here.
Do you really think Senna is racng for Brazil or Mansell for Britain?
They are racing for themselves and their team (and the love of racing).
Keep nationalism out of sport. (They should start the Olympics with
a flag-burning ceremony - all of them!).

George Brims
Just my .02 ECU.
From: danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Dan Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Rahal/Johansson/Mario/Tracy
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:43:10 GMT
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation, Mountain View

M. Smiley writes:

>>>I find it very funny that when people defend Johansson they say that
>>>he was "just being aggessive" when IMHO he clearly screwed up. I mean
>>>where in the hell was he going to put the car? But when Mario hits
>>>Tracy or Little Al or ..... he is said to be screwing up. Sorry but I
>>>dont see any difference. I think they were both careless. I realize
>>>there is a very fine line between hard racing and carefree driving,
>>>but in Mario`s cases and in Johansson's case(this time) they crossed
>>>the line.
>> 
>>Rahal incident: Get a copy of Competition Driving
>>with the professor Prost who is very careful, look
>>at few pictures and sketches about outbreaking and
>>you will conclude that Rahal's comment was not very polite
>>but quite accurate. Johansson was smoking his tires -
>>and if he did not bump Rahal he may have finished in the wall
>>himself.
>>
>>Marcin
>
>Finally someone with the proper perspective. Anyone notice how no one else
>even attempted to pass going into that particular chicane ? I'm sure there
>is a good reason for that. If Rahal did miss a gear, why didn't Stefan J.
>sit back and gather up some extra corner exit speed and easily pass going
>into the next corner ? It's obvious that Johansson left his braking way too
>late and rammed Rahal. As for his comments, imagine yourself loosing a 22
>point margin that you and your team had been working towards all season
>because of someone elses carelessness. I doubt anyone would of reacted any
>differently, in fact, most of us would of stormed Johannsons pit and 
>hurled profanity towards Tony B.

If Rahal had just been pissed off and complained about Johansson crashing
into him and costing him 20 points, I don't think you would have seen the
reaction here that you have.  But Rahal said, Hey, I am the points leader
so if your not challenging for points, you shouldn't race me.  So I guess
that leaves about 3 or 4 drivers that Rahal thinks would have the right to
race against him.  This is the problem I had with Rahal's statement and I
think this is what the others had a problem with too.

Dan Jones
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport