HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Manifesto of the Thelemic Golden Dawn
Date: Mon,  9 Nov 92 10:53:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Nov6.205540.29892@primerd.prime.com> <1dh86rINNd6t@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>

9211.09 e.v.


TTK (the troglodyte killer) writes in response to Jason (my hero):

>In nomen C.R.C., our Father Beast, our Mother Mary, and the Countless,
>unless my judgement is impaired by incorrect assumptions due to 
>my own falliablility, I denounce this group, named the Thelemic
>Golden Dawn, and it's progenitors, wherever they may be.
 
     What's the point of denouncing it?  If this group is 
ultimately destructive, it will eventually destroy itself, and if 
it's ultimately creative it should be left alone..  Best to pay 
attention to your own endeavours to bring light to the world.
 
Just my $0.02 piece..


Response:

The point in denouncing any social group is to proclaim its lack
value for our society.  Jason is becoming a beacon for truth
as he sees it.  It is his will to draw what criticism
and praise that results from such denunciation.

If this group is ultimately destructive and will destroy itself,
the let us first determine whether or not destruction is a force
which we wish to support in any way and secondly oppose that
destruction which we find worthy of our opposition.

A child with a laser will cause much harm before killing itself if
we follow the 'leave it alone' policy.  

Who says we wish to bring 'light' to the world?  Perhaps you do,
especially as you find value with the Christian mystics of
Rosae Crucis, but all of us aren't on the side of the Demon-Slaying
Light-Lord who has come to Rule with his Mighty Rod of Virility.

Some of us like to support the Ravenous Miasm-Queen who gave BIRTH to
the Light-Lord in the first place, seeing Her as a wonderfully
perfect Mother that has been forgotten in Her Dark, unreachable Tomb.

Wise up, Janet Weiss!

Thyagi
-------------------------------------------------------
"Official Ballot
County of Santa Clara
November 3, 1992...

"Ballot stub to be removed before placing in ballot box.

"072 02493"
        ^^

Thyagi's voting stub.  Note that I didn't even NOTICE the 93 until
I typed it just now.  I how NO idea why I decided to quote it, but
it makes a very effective statement about will, I think.  Enjoy!
From: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: artephius 'secret book' (very long)
Date: 12 Nov 1992 06:34:45 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: pongo.west.sun.com

I have never delved into hermedic (despite my father's many efforts
to interest me in it) but from what I have heard this is indeed an
"exceptionally clear work".   It is interesting that such a clear
work on the subject would have been written in 1200 - when 300 years
later Paracelsus was still working on the same problem, and writing
rather less clearly.  Some of this may, however, relate to personal
style - after all the modern word "Bombastic" was coined to describe
Paracelsus (born Theophrastus Bombastus).

It is quite possible that the "secret fire" referred to is the organic
solvent for metals that Paracelsus considered to be the "lesser work"
(also a necessary component in the completion of the "greater work",
the Philosophers' stone).  This solvent would, among other things,
enable people to safely consume otherwise poisonous metals and derive
benefits (that I do not recall).  He believed that metals like mercury
were only poisonous in large volumes and direct application.  If they
could be disolved into an organic solvent and taken internally, small
amounts would be delivered throughout the body and act therapeudically.
He was not entirely full of guano in this belief - as drug designers 
now strive to achieve a very similar effect of encapsulating active
ingredients in carriers that will deliver them safely to the point
where they can effectively act.

Much of the obscure and seemingly inconsistant references in Hermedic
writing arrise from the fact that the alchemists of old lacked a
systematic way of describing chemical constituents, states, compounds,
and even temperatures.  As a result they often make recourse to analogy.
For instance two products may be described by a term, not naming them,
but rather naming something familiar that they both resemble ... and it 
is assumed that the reader will understand from context that these two
products are not one and the same.  Different names for the same
product may refer to it in different contexts or applications - where
it may have been given different names by different alchemists.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: my probs with the FAQ
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 10:44:44 GMT

Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:
: 
: The troglodyte killer (ttk) writes:
: 
: My reactions are not solely based upon my interactions with you.  They've
: been a long time building and are associated with ALL organized religions.
: Those who follow the will of others (ex-lodgemaster or no) are doomed
: to slavery and the hell that this entails, AMORC or no AMORC.

... and ...

: I hope that this thread and these comments DO bias someone who reads them.
: I hope that they bias someone to look VERY carefully at ALL social
: organizations with which one becomes associated.  I hope that they bias
: someone to criticize EVERY aspect of organized religion for what it is,
: question the authority of all members of religious organizations, and
: look very skeptically at ALL claims of wisdom, truth and knowledge.  

A note to TTK. I would suggest you read the section in "Real Magic"
by Isaac Bonewitz which deals with how to recognize a cult which is  
more interested in manipulating or profiting from its memberships 
than it is in teaching. I realize that much of the rest of the book
is crap, but that section is quite good. I also believe that AMORC
would rate very high on the scale.

Bill
From: oispeggy@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Of giving up and getting on..(was Women vs Men)
Date: 11 Nov 92 14:28:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <JOSHUA.92Nov10122505@bailey.cpac.washington.edu>, joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes...

>>   At one time the convent was an escape from the unpleasant 
>>   alternative of being traded into marriage like a brood mare, but 
>>   IMO this was an "out of the frying pan into the fire" solution.

>maybe in the last few hundred years. in the middle ages (and later in
>some parts of the world) things were quite different.

OK, so it didn't *immediately* deteriorate to an *entirely* (IMO) 
crummy situation.  There were spiritual marriages and co-ed abbeys, 
sometimes run by females, for awhile.  However, the women were 
still dependent on the men for sacraments and still following 
religious guidelines set up by men.  The church did not approve 
of women having autonomy or authority, so as time went on these
things were eliminated.  Women became less powerful and more 
controlled, even within their own religious orders.

>hmmm? some female saints had quite a bit of temporal power.

These were exceptions, and they were often at odds with church 
or political authorities.  Also, they were still following a 
religion that did not allow them to fully participate in policy 
making.

- Peggy -
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: my probs with the FAQ
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 10:30:13 GMT

ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer) writes:
: 
: >There seems to be a divergence of 'histories' here.  This may indeed
: >be the story which mainline AMORC tells its suckers, erm, students,
: >yet, O.T.O. and some less biased sources seem to have a quite
: >different picture (as Josh elucidates).
:  
:      I don't even know if AMORC has an "official history" which 
: they tell their members.  I was told this by my fiancee's mother, 
: who would not lie to me.  Ever.

Nor does it mean that she knows AC from Santa Claus. Just because someone
earnestly believes something does not make it true.

: >Access to a library of dogma is a not a benefit.
:  
:      The Rosicrucian Library isn't about Rosicrucian philosophy.  
: It's simply where all the literature goes that has been donated to 
: the order by well-to-do members (royalty among them) for the past 
: 300 years or so, and literature donated to the order by affiliated 
: bodies and other friendly/related organizations (Martinists, 
: Freemasons, et al).

Hm, which references did I see the claims that Rosicrucianism was
"revealed" in about the mid 19th century. I don't believe any documents
from prior to that time have been found. Even the authenticity of the
material from the 19th century is in doubt.

: that 1) AMORC is responsible for my behaviour, and 2) AMORC is 
: some sort of sleazy dogmatic money-making scheme hardly do the 
: organization justice.

Depends on whether it is true - or not.

:      I understand that these implications are made by people to 
: whom undermining my statements by any means possible is more 
: important than speaking truth, but I'm disturbed by the 
: possibility of these statements biasing someone who'd never heard 
: of AMORC before this thread started up.   

I doubt if you have any idea what the "truth" is. By your own
admission, you have little direct experience of the group yourself.
All you have is the second-hand perceptions of people who were
associated with the group. Neither do you appear to have much
knowledge of the information available outside the group. If I
were in that situation, I would be very leary about claiming to
know "the truth". For that matter, I would not claim to know the
"truth" - no matter how much I knew - for, the more I learn, the
more I am sure that no person or organization is the possessor of
"the one and only truth".

Bill
From: danlip@cco.caltech.edu (Daniel Adam Lipofsky)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Trouble?
Date: 12 Nov 1992 10:24:53 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1Jg4TB3w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> skye@brewich.hou.tx.us (Skye Stryder) writes:
> 
>This sounds an awful lot like some of Velikovsky's (pardon my spelling, 
>I read his stuff in 7th grade) theories.  By the way...any geophysicists 
>out there know why the earth's magnetic poles tend to switch polarity 
>every so often? 
>
>Skye
>

I believe the answer is no.
I'm not a geophysicist (nor do I play one on TV) but I do know some, and
tend to be well educated on such subjects.  The last I heard, it was
still a mystery.

BTW, its about time for another switch (plus or minus a 1000 years).
I hope it happens within my lifetime.  Should be fun, and probably won't
cause the end of the world.

--danlip

-- 
"The calender of the Theocracy of Muntab counts down, not up.  No-one knows
why, but it might not be a good idea to hang around and find out."
	--Terry Pratchett, _Wyrd_Sisters_
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jdh@math.psu.edu (Jeremy D Hall)
Subject: Re: Opinions needed on the future...
Organization: Penn State Department of Mathematics
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 21:35:21 GMT

In article <1di0dfINNqma@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ae561@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Peter Wong) writes:
>
>	Hi, greetings....
>

Howdy!

>I have these associates (I met them this summer) that told me a
>story of the future, recently.  They, also, told me that they had
>a lot of dreams (they claim...note, that I not falling over myself
>in belief -NOR- great disbelief) about the future.
>
>Well, the story is somewhat complicated; however, in short, they
>stated that there was once magik on Eartha at one time and just 
				     ^^^^^^
Eartha Kitt?  I preferred Julie Newmar as Catwoman.  :^)

>befor ethe end of the millenium, there will be this "...great
>war...".
>
>They don't seem like the type of people that would play a "group
>joke" on one person, me.  Of course, one of them (they are a family)
>is very scientific in nature (to believe in this, but he does)
>
>
>	In short, what is people's opinion on "the great war"?
>
>

Hmmm...sounds sort of similar to the plot of the Darksword Trilogy by 
Margaret Weis/Tracy Hickman.  It seems that all of the magical beings (including
humans that could use magic) left the Earth for another place (around 1500AD,
I think) via this path that Merlin had discovered.  This place was the origin
for all magick in the universe, and so they shut it off from the other worlds,
keeping the magick all to themselves. The third book of the trilogy deals with
the invasion of the Earth forces, using the Great Evil, Technology.  And yes,
a Great War starts.

Just one person's opinion...

>-- 
>ae561@clevleand.freenet.edu
>pwong@heartland.bradley.edu
>usr10687@tso.uc.EDU

Jeremy Hall
Penn State Univ.
jdh@math.psu.edu


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Spawning( was: Re: Many things - was women Vs men (ugh))
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:05:15 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science



I'd like to clarify something. I am not anti-kids or anti-people-having-
kids or anti-people-doing-whatever-the-fuck-they-want-to-do; I pointed
out the parasitical nature of children and noted that many people and 
groups involved in magickal training tend to discourage spawning, as a
distraction (to put it mildly). I have also chosen, myself, not to spawn.
many occultists, historically (including john dee and aleister crowley,
though not including s.l. mathers and (I think, but am not sure) israel
regardie), have chosen to spawn. this is not a judgement upon any person.
this is (in the second instance) my choice and (in the first) by way of 
being a more or less objective observation.

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: hasch@chem.queensu.ca (Hartmut Schmider)
Subject: Re: Trouble?
Followup-To: alt.magick
Summary: Ouch
Organization: Dept. of Chemistry, Queen's University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 00:14:11 GMT

In article <geyJZ_600iV482y6do@andrew.cmu.edu> Kendrick Kerwin Chua <kendrick+@CMU.EDU> writes:
>... we have Crowley's transition from the Age of Horus into the Age of Osiris,
Ouch
>we have the aquarian thing, etc.etc.etc. . .

>Kendrick Kerwin Chua
>Dark Lord see me to freedom.

Hartmut "where's the switch" Schmider
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: Of giving up and getting on..(was Women vs Men)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 23:22:42 GMT

In article <memo.734619@cix.compulink.co.uk> shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes..
>
>religions condemn sex?
>
>Possible reasons:
>        1/. Birth control by societal pressure
>
>        2/. The amount of TIME spent on raising children. Basically
>        THAT becomes the Great Work for 99% of parents. Josh is right
>        (and offensive as usual :-) sigh). If you want to explore the
>        various avenues of spirituality, you may find kids arte like
>        an anchor. Great for keeping you in the same place - but that
>        may not be what you want.
>
Personally, I think it comes back down to men wishing to get rid of their 
daughters in tribal times.  Basicly, I think it is in the male natur eto
copulate freely, and then run off leaving the woman to raise the child.
Parents (I should have said parents up there, not fathers, infact it was
more likely mothers who fostered this attitiude), created a social code
by which a man must stay with a woman if they are to have sex.  The whole
"virgin thing" I think comes down to the fact that if a man has sex with a
woman, and then did not marry her, it was probbably seen as a gesture that
he did not see her as "worth" marrying, thus a non-virgin was not "worth" as
much as a virgin.

As for religions actually condeming the sexual act, I don't think many/any do.
The old testament is always talking of "fruitful loins" and all that stuff.
Sex out of marriage is a different issue....  It's not the sexual act
which is condemned, but adulterous sex.

Personally, I think the whole thing (mariage) is kind of silly....
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: my probs with the FAQ
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:34:18 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.76.2

ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer) writes:

>     Interesting that you'd contrast Rosicrucianism and 
>philosophy..  Rosicrucians have always stood for the development 
>of one's own philosophies.

ah yes? by accepting information on authority and not personally 
investigating the area under discussion?

josh
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: herb books
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:29:12 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1992Nov10.190210.26402@shearson.com> scarrobi@shearson.com writes:
>In article 92Nov10080144@bailey.cpac.washington.edu, joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
>> 
>> In article <1992Nov10.050321.25998@samba.oit.unc.edu> shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu
>> (Shava Nerad Averett) writes:
>> >No american cultures
>> >used the tobacco plant recreationally before europeans arrived here, to 
>> >the best of our knowledge (_Hallucinogens_ forget the author, a good book 
>> >on new world hallucinogenic use, UCLA Press, I think).  
>> 
>> the old mexicans did ('true history of the discovery and conquest of new 
>> spain', bernal diaz del castillo, various editions). 
>> 
>and the american indian. 
>as well as for ceremonial 

OK, I'll have to look up castillo, if I have time.  However, are y'all sure
you are not differentiating between recreational/addictive and ceremonial/
sacred use of the herb?



-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava@unc.edu
/*  all original materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing 
    significant to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned 
    subsidiary of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of NC DOT. */
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Women vs Men
Date: 8 Nov 92 10:04:06 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
: In the referenced article, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: >oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
: >: 
: >
: >Hm. Is there such a system? If so, who belongs? How do you become a
: >member? Are there stylistic requirements? Content requirements? Do
: >we sign something with a drop of seminal/vaginal emission? Where do
: >I apply?
: >
: 
: From the tone of your articles I'd say you are already a member.

Oh goody!

Sigh, is humor/sarchasm now banned from the group?

Bill
From: mimir@stein.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Neophyte Information for Thelemic Golden Dawn
Keywords: I am not a member
Date: 7 Nov 92 01:12:17 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society




                    THE TASKS OF THE NEOPHYTE
                      OF THE THELEMIC ORDER
                       OF THE GOLDEN DAWN

                      By Sir David Cherubim
                     (Frater Superior Chief)
                     Copyright (c) 1990 e.v.

                           Zero Degree
                          (Probationer)

        Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The principal business of the Neophyte of the  Thelemic Order of
the Golden Dawn is to discover his own True Will, and to begin to
obtain the knowledge and control of the nature and powers of his
own being. He is further to devote himself to the study and
practice of such things as he may deem fit for the cultivation of
his aspirations to the Higher Life of Thelema. However, the
Neophyte should best study and exercise the principles of the Law
of Thelema, as expounded in The Book of the Law.  

The following Magical Rituals are suitable for the Neophyte to
begin to study and perform. Every Neophyte must know and be able
to perform properly numbers 1 and 2 before he can advance to the
next grade of Zelator. He will be tested in numbers 3 and 4
during his Zelator grade before he can advance to the more
exalted grade of Adeptus Minor Without. 

          1. The Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram
          2. The Middle Pillar Ritual 
          3. The Royal Ritual of the Sphinx 
          4. The Royal Ritual of the Middle Pillar 
       
The Neophyte should begin to compose a Magical Diary concerning
his magical activities, aspirations and thoughts. This is of
utmost importance and should not be neglected by any means. The
Diary is the method and means of expressing, discovering and
analyzing various parts of oneself for the essential
comprehension of one's True Will. The Diary of the Magician is
his best asset. The Magical Diary plays an essential part in the
training of the Magician; it is a good means of disciplining his
mind and organizing his thoughts for the cultivation and
realization of his Magical Will. 

The grade of Neophyte has no real correspondence with a Chakkra,
Planet, Alkhemical Metal or Sephira on the Tree of Life. It is
purely a probationary grade. It is a stage of inner trial, when
the candidate's devotion to the Great Work is tested by the
Secret Guardians of the Mysteries.  It is the key to the higher
initiations.

                Love is the law, love under will.
From: X-Caiver@iphase.infoserv.com (X-Caiver)
Sender: FredGate@iphase.infoserv.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The NET-ronomicon
Date: 08 Nov 92  18:05:54 EST

I would like more information on these two items that you keep refering to. "Necronomicon"(sp?) and the tome by/called "Love(something)" What are these about and where would I be able to get my hands on one of them?

Donald Ray X-caiver Pattee
(initials: DRXP. Dr X, RX, it has to be a sign!to bad I am going to be an engineer and not a doctor..)


 * Origin: StarLight Acres BBS  <K.I.S.S.>  (904)-829-1442 (1:112/7)
From: jdh@math.psu.edu (Jeremy D Hall)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Trouble?
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:38:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State Department of Mathematics

Y'know, it's rather weird that people just started posting this "is anyone
feeling uneasy" thread immediately after the supposed "Rapture" (Otc. 28,
1992, for those of you not keeping score), after which comes the 
Tribulation (supposedly).  Suppose there's any connection?

Actually, the last time I felt uneasy was Oct. 1988.  At least, uneasy for
no obvious reason (Bush was elected a month later, I suppose that could be
it...).

Jeremy Hall
Penn State Univ.
jdh@math.psu.edu
From: danlip@cco.caltech.edu (Daniel Adam Lipofsky)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The End of the World - Again
Date: 9 Nov 1992 00:20:51 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <JOSHUA.92Nov6124638@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
>
>I am completely confident that world is not going to end anytime
>soon. I am reasonably confident that human civilization is
>not going to end anytime soon. Anyone at all is welcome to
>bet me $1000 against my $1000 that the world is going to end 
>on any given date you care to specify, be it 31 December 1999,
>23 December 2012, 28 October 1993 (in case the korean christians
>decide that they made a slight miscalculation and it's coming a
>year later) or whatever.
>
>yes that's right folks, even money on this one!

I'd take you up on that, except that if I win I can't collect,
and if you win you can.  Doesn't seem like even money to me.

1 January 1993, since it hasn't been listed yet.

--danlip



-- 
"The calender of the Theocracy of Muntab counts down, not up.  No-one knows
why, but it might not be a good idea to hang around and find out."
	--Terry Pratchett, _Wyrd_Sisters_
Newsgroups: alt.magick