HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: politics
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:30:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.163951.25193@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.022619.2423654@locus.com>, jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>> In article <3625@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>> >In article <1992Aug21.073928.17880@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>> >>
>> >>In article 22555@rs.com, horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
>> >>>The Philistines were *never* in Israel -- and their name *never* evolved into
>> 				  ^^^^^^^^^
>> What Israel?  The now adays place known, by force, as israel is the stolen
>> land of the Philistines.  Israel of the thieves , if you wish , exists
>> around Germany that if the Germans, Polish, ...etc wish it to be.  This
>> land is that of the Philistines.  Read actual history books and ask the
>> people of the land, do not read the books of a bunch of thief-authors, and
>> ask the invadors.
>>
>
>The land of the Philistines was around Gaza.  They controlled 5
>coastal cities there, after failing in their attempt to invade
>Egypt.  Philistines were Anatolian Greeks, and have no ethnic
>ties with current inhabitants of the region.  In Archeological
>Review an article on the results of excavations of the Philistine
>cities (none of which except for Safed is within Israel proper today)
                                  ^^^^^ 
Seth, Safed was never philistine you must have mixed it with Ashdod
and Ashkelon which are north to Gaza. I think that 3 of the 5 are
in today's Israel and Gaza and another city in Today's Gaza strip.

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: When Anisa answers...
Date: 29 Aug 92 16:20:58 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Lest I be accused of Mutlu-osis, I am going to stop responding unless
Anisa responds to the specific facts I have laid down regarding foreign
aid(*) and answers this question:  Why, given the history of financial and moral
support for her people, the majority of them turned and supported 
a vicious dictator in pillaging, raping and murdering the Kuwiati nation?
Is this support somehow Islamic?

Note that I have asked this question about half a dozen times without
getting an answer. Further, the numbers I have posted with regard 
to aid by Kuwait have been posted here numerous times to answer 
similiar charges.  The numbers are never answered, only the accusations
of greed are repeated when everyone has forgotten the earlier
posting.


(*)  For your benefit, in case you couldn't fish it out of all the 
past posting, here are the FACTS:

This comes from the Central Bank of Kuwait.  


          Official Foreign Assistance by Kuwait
                 to Third World Countries


                      1984     1985     1986     1987     1988
                      ----     ----     ----     ----     ----
Official Foreign
Assistance            862      868      983      337      534
(Million KD)

GDP                   6424.6   6151.0   6675.9   6406.1   6633.1
(Million KD)

Aid as % of GDP       13.4%    14.1%    14.7%    5.3%     8.1%


----------------------------------------------------------------

Aid as % of GDP (average for 5 years): 11.12%

*** This does *not include* soft loans for project financing in
*** third world countries by the Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic 
*** Development (KFAED).


Kuwait's overall level of aid (not KFAED loans) as a percentate 
of GDP was among the highest of all the industrialized nations of 
the _world_!

Also, as I pointed out earlier, one of the tacit purposes 
of KFAED was to take provide a direct line of aid to people in 
poorer countries, bypassing the corruption involved in 
governmental contracting procedures.




-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 15:45:44 GMT


John Elghani, welcome to /usr/anwar/New/talk/politics/mideast/KILL.
Given this tirade of idiotic and fantastic accusations, I wonder
how sincere your e-mail to me was.  Don't worry, I won't 
reprint it (I certainly wouldn't want to ignore your "legal warnings").

I won't even bother responding and let this posting stand on its 
own:

In article <1992Aug28.223417.2436830@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.142332.20788@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
><<Abunch of senseless attacks deleted>>
>
>>Cheers to Kuwait. 
>
>Now that Kuwait has the Israelis on their side, they've got no one
>to fear.  Hopefully they can remember to fear their creator.
>Well, both Kuwait and the Israelis have the following in common:
>
>1- Slaughter the Palestinians.
>2- Unfair trials to the Palestinians.
>3- Iraq as #1 enemy.
>4- Support to John Gurung against the fair government of Sudan.
>5- Palestinian expulsion.
>
>I look forward for the day that Israel will occupy Mecca.  Are we 
>going to see Kuwaiti women welcoming them like they welcomed the
>british in Kuwait?
>
>I said it over and over.  The Iraqi war was initiated secretely by
>the Israelis for the following reasons:
>
>1-  To destroy any power the arabs have, or potentially the moslems.
>    They succeeded so far.
>
>2-  To split the arabs in 1/2.  They succeeded so far. Look at the 
>    fights between Anwar and Anisa for example.
>
>3-  To drain out the money out of the Gulf to eliminate potential
>    strength the arabs may gain via money.
>    They're succeeding so far;  Saudia is borrowing money.
>
>Israel fabricates, the US obeys/applies, and the arabs and the americans die,
>the israelis are saved.  Congratulations 
>to Al Khalifa Mr. Anwar Mohxxxed la radiya allaho anho.
>
>jle


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:19:29 GMT

In article <3720@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>Jake writes:

>You're right.  The media plays a major role in not presenting the facts
>and is the master of distortions.  This is true especially of the Gulf
>region.  Since it is in the good graces of the United States, known facts
>such as the prohibition of political parties and suffrage (especially to
>women), are virtually unknown to the average American.  They also view
>Israel as being the 'only democracy' in the Middle East because of the
>misconceptions and fear of Islamic and pan-Arab nationalism.  And because

Your use of quotes around 'only democracy' is interesting.  It seems
to imply that either Israel is not the only democracy in the Middle
East, or Israel is not a democracy.  Which are you implying, and could
you justify it?

>money seems to always be a factor when decifering U.S. intervention and
>political prestige, the average American supports such countries as you
>just stated.

Unfortunatly, I can't argue with this.  Current US foriegn policy, is,
by and by large, repulsive to me.  (I'm thinking of
Bosnia-Hersegovinia, China, Tibet, Algeria, and Syria.)

>But then we have people like Anwar stating that this is better than
>what we see in the Middle East as a whole, while ignoring democratic
>processes and supporting aggression against other Muslim states such
>as Algeria, and Afghanistan.

Was there a democratic movement in Afghanistan?  I agree that what
happened in Algeria was disgraceful.

>BTW, Kuwait and Israel are two vary different examples in view of
>the Palestinian situation.  The only common denominator is that
>the Palestinians were once again scapegoated.

How are the palestinians being "scapegoated" in Israel?  The fact is,
they fought a war in 1948 and lost.  Since then they have been killing
Jews and Israelis around the world.  Irrelevant of what happened, and
whatever justifications there may be, their random, senseless violence
has hurt the cause of the entire Arab world in Western eyes, and
pushed peace farther away.

If only they had learned from the example of Ghandi...



Adam



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: John Elghani sucking on his toes (was Re:  Islamic Sabah of Kuwait: Millions to British zoo.)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:18:50 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.184358.2431634@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>Just recently I heard that the Amir of Kuwait contributing millions 
>of dollars to the London Zoo.  The reason being: The British Government
>announced that it can no longer afford to feed the animals in the zoo,
>so it was shutting it down.  Accordingly, our great man of sympathy,
>Amir Al Sabah of Kuwait, contributed millions of dollars to the 
>to-be-hungry animals of the zoo.  I wonder who's hungrier,  the animals
>or the moslems that look like sticks in Somalia or Sudan? 
>Thank God to the Christian missionaries that are attempting to feed
>the hungry there.

John, next time get some facts.  In addition to the billions Kuwait
has spent in the past on poorer Arab and Islamic states (as I've 
repeated here ad infinitum), Kuwait has been involved in supporting 
the diplomatic missions for Somalia and sending aid to 
Bosnia-Hercegovina.  Kuwait has no option of helping in Sudan as
the government there, which is hostile to Kuwait, is largely 
responsible for the misery there (mostly inflicted on Christians,
who are also being enslaved by the Sudani government).

So if you are looking for someone to attack, why don't you attack
the Iraqi government, which has propped up this murderous Sudani
regime?

Your attack in Kuwait is so misdirected and uninformed here, I 
suggest to you that you retract it before you lose all credibility,
if you haven't already.

>
>jle
>


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: politics
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:08:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep01.035418.2447987@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.215655.13594@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug31.191405.2446208@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>>So, the name Philistine in Arabic, Hebrew, Persian, ...etc that points
>>>to the people of Palestine , is just a cooincidence , right?
>>>
>>>Don't be fooled with by the letters P and Ph when English translation 
>>>takes place .
>>
>>Just like Elghani!  As has been mentioned umpteen times on this net, the
>>name "Palestine" for the land was a Roman invention.  Once again, we see
>>what should be very obvious:  Elghani refuses to take seriously anything
>>which attacks his hopelessly narrow view of the world.  Ho hum.
>
>Obviously, the narrow-view-of-the-world is in the ERIC PERLMAN's eyes.
>
>Do you deny the equality beteen the names Palestine and Philistine?  If you
>do, just let me know so I can laugh a little more, I happened to
>like jokes.

Obviously, it's in nearly everyone else's eyes as well.  Elghani very
obviously can't even read - otherwise he would realize that Seth's last
two postings have completely refuted his view.  

Sigh...

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Religion and Politics (was: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT...)
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 01:14:38 GMT

In article <3694@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:

>		"Since when did the affairs of the state
>		take precedence over the affairs of God?"

1789, or 1791, technically, because that was when the last state
ratified the bill of rights.


Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Date: 31 Aug 92 18:11:15 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Aug28.191523.2435843@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <Btp39J.Cy0.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>
>>I would like to see Kuwait run by a Kuwaiti, just like I'd like to 
see Lebanon run by Lebanese, Syria run by Syrians, Jordan run by 
Jordanians, Egypt run by Egyptians, etc.  My personal opinion is that
state and religious institutions should reman seperate to a degree.
You've got a problem with that?
>
>I told you, you should not carry the name "Mohammed".  Islam and
>politics cannot be separated.  Recall that the Prophet established
>a government.  Read the Quran and the Serat,  both are full of
>governmental guidance.

It just occurred to me that Mohammed is probably Anwar's father's
name.  Maybe we should be a little more respectful of that fact.
I mean, even if Anwar isn't religious, maybe his father is :-).

>I conclude from your words that you are anti islam just like your
>Amir.
>
>jle

That is the truth.  Sigh ... What a shame.  :(

Anisa
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: U.S. Plans to overfly & control southern Iraq, improper?
From: scott@anasaz (Scott Gibson)
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:15:13 GMT
Reply-To: scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <7759@public.BTR.COM> rem@btr.btr.com writes:
>
>Isn't this a violation of Iraq's airspace and sovergnity? It's one
>thing for the U.S. to act under U.N. banner to support a U.N. sanction,
>but it's another for the U.S. to unilaterally commit an act of war on
>another nation, even if the other nation has been naughty lately.

It might be, if Iraq had any sovereignity to violate.

Iraq is currently enjoying the benefits of a cease fire.  The
terms and conditions of that cease fire included Iraq's agreement
that they would not fly military aircraft, nor carry out military
operations.  The U.N. mandate to wage war on Iraq is still in
effect, and is the guarantee of Iraq's compliance with these
agreements.

The U.N. has, for some time, permitted Iraq to both strike militarily
at the Shi'ites, and to fly military aircraft in conjunction with those
operations.  The U.N. should not have been permitting this, since it
has apparently caused the leaders of Iraq to presume that the cease
fire agreement is no longer binding.  I suspect that they are about
to learn the error of this presumption.


-- 
But you knew your figure cut a cipher/ Through every crafted plan/ And 
playing our game for real/ Saw through our plumbing jobs/ And wayward glands/
To a meaning of your own, in bones."  - Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons"
Scott Gibson                   {ames!ncar!noao!asuvax,mcdphx}!anasaz!qip!scott
Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own, and may change without prior notice.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: When Anisa answers...
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:03:24 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

Here I is!  Not hiding or ignoring you ...

In article <Btr6qy.EqG.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>
>Anisa responds to the specific facts I have laid down regarding foreign
>aid(*) and answers this question: Why, given the history of financial and moral
>support for her people, the majority of them turned and supported 
>a vicious dictator in pillaging, raping and murdering the Kuwiati nation?

I can't answer on behalf of everyone.  I can just say, from a certain
Islamic viewpoint, that the good Muslim Palestinians - like the rest
of the Arab Muslims - did not condone nor support the invasion.  On
the other hand, they/we do not condone nor support the corruption and
misuse of Muslim money, Kuwait's non-support of Algeria during her
struggle, the starvation of Somolian peoples (you mentioned this but
I don't recall any specific figures), nor any of the other injustices
in the Arab/Muslim world that Kuwait can intervene in and have influence
(but don't for some apparant reason) with their monetary power.
 
>Is this support somehow Islamic?

Did I answer your question/s yet?

Question to you:  Do you support your government's seemingly
hypocritical actions?  Condone their injustices?

I would really like to know ...

Anisa
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What are you sucking on, Anwar?  (was Re: John Elghani sucking on his toes)
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:29:16 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Sep1.053659.28902@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> barrak@tramp.Colorado.EDU (HADI MOHAMMED F) writes:
>
>Correction: According to the Constitution of Kuwait, all natural resources
>(i.e. oil) are owned by the state for the benefit of the people. The

Yes.  Owned by the state - just as in Saudi Arabia.  So, as we
originally stated, the corruption and greed is *in fact* from the
government.  But why is it that the majority of citizens so
arrogant?  Don't they believe in democratic principals, such as
equality regardless of race, creed, color?

>state is composed of the Emir who appoints the cabinet (The Executive
>Body) and an elected National Assembly (The Legislative Body).

Yes.  The Emir *appoints* - so where does the election fall into
place?  The National Assembly?  Are its members elected?

BTW, didn't the Emir say that he was going to give freedom of election
to the people after the Gulf War?  Or was this just to appease the
United States?

>You are insulting Kuwaitis by claiming that the oil wells are owned by
>``Sabahis'' unless of course if you mean by ``Sabahis'' all Kuwaitis.

Of course.  It would be very unfair to insult all Kuwaitis - after all,
not all people are rich, just as in Saudi Arabia.

>---barrak

Barrak feek -

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nkjle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Religion and Politics (was: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT...)
Organization: LC
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:11:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.132722.25804@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>#
>#I told you, you should not carry the name "Mohammed".  Islam and
>#politics cannot be separated.  Recall that the Prophet established
>#a government.  Read the Quran and the Serat,  both are full of
>#governmental guidance.
>
>Is this commonly accepted among Muslims? I always thought that
>what ruins religion is when it becomes mixed with politics and
>forms a hierarchical structure to rule the people. We have
>certainly seen this hurt both Judaism and Christianity.

Islam had an 800 year strong, fair, and faithfull government till the very
end for various reasons.


jle
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
Subject: Democracy
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Date: 27 Aug 92 05:07:02 GMT


J.C.S.Martillo Ajami writes:

A completely uncorrellated statement.  Soviet Communism lasted longer
than the First French Republic.  Maybe democracy is less stable than
communism.  It might be that when there are many monarchies,
monarchies are stable, the more democracies, the more stable
democracies become and perhaps if the Soviet and Chinese communists
had managed to continue expanding, the communist systems would have
become more stable.

********************

Here, here.

The message that democracy may not only be important to the West
but also potentially fragile seems to have been lost in the 
shuttle.  Mr. Martillo Ajami - who seems willing to point out
over and over again how mindless most of us in the periphery are
- forgets how mindless most people in the world are, no matter
where they live, in the USA, as elsewhere.

Democracy must be actively preserved.  Everything does not go, 
as some seem to think, or not think.  There have to be limits.
Threats to democracy are threats like any other and must be
dealt with.  The attitude that "If it is not self perpetuating,
it is not worthwhile" is patently false.   This is enabled in
the late Supreme Court Justice O.W.Holmes's dictum on Clear and
Present Danger.


For those of you have it, take good care of it.  For those who
do not enjoy democracy, try it.  You'll like it.  But if you do,
take care to preserve it.  It is worth it.


__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 00:54:57 GMT

In article <3628@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.120204.17755@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>>Truly free democratic elections in Arab couould probably also help.
>
>Yes, but do you have any solutions on getting rid of the dictators
>first?

Perhaps by following the example of Kuwait by holding constitutionally 
mandated elections and allowing the Press to freely discuss issues related 
to the elections.  

I would also suggest to you that you clean up your own backyard before
stepping into ours, as you seem to have a tendency to do.

>
>Anisa
> 


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890