HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Look out guys - Mensan denies evolution
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:27:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.122531.29000@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, dtl8v@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Heraclitus) writes:
> 
>    So there was an anti-evolutionist article published in UK Mensa.
> So what?  Mensa doesn't STAND for anything.  It expresses no opinions

I'd like to generalize this and say that as soon as someone spouts
some opinion and uses the words "we" or "us", intending to include me
as part of the "team", a little red flag goes up for me.

If someone purports to speak my views for me, I make it a point to
be very, very careful before I consent to anything.  I don't think
a group has yet been created that holds most of my views, let alone
all.

GMS
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Joining
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 23:35:16 -0500

nick+@pitt.edu (Nick C De Mello) writes:

 NCDM> Organization: University of Pittsburgh

And another one in Mr. Prock's neighborhood, tho admittedly a few blocks down
Forbes.  Maybe you can give him and Mr. Marting a lift.

 NCDM>    Despite the assorted flames, mensa is not an elitest society.

Depends what you *mean* by elitist... we do have definite high standards, so we
are in at least one sense.  Now, are we SNOBS, which is how the average person
interprets "elitist"?  Some is, some ain't....

 NCDM> Intelligence in the 98th percentile is not a very difficult requirement
 NCDM> to meet,

Oh?  98% of all people don't!

 NCDM> there are SIG's [...] for everything from archery to yachting.

Or from aabsurdity to zymurgy....

From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: What's a "day"?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:34:06 -0500

Craig Wagner writes:

 CW> Apology-fest anyone???  ;-)

Sorry, that doesn't appeal to me.  My apologies if that disappoints you.

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: matth@progress.COM (Matthew J. Harper)
Subject: Re: speed of light and age of the universe -- NOT
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:34:09 GMT

pmailman@genesis.nred.ma.us (Paul Mailman) writes:

>In article <711788422.F00013@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>>
>>Seen recently in Keshernet:
>>
>> Jews: God is 1!  Atheists: God is I!
>>
>Q: How many Christians does it take to change a light bulb?

>A: Three.  But it's really one.

 A: None.  They see the light without the bulb.
--
          Matthew J. Harper ! Progress Software Corp. ! {disclaimer.i}         
   God created heaven and earth to grow barley and hops. Now he homebrews !-)
From: kjmc+@pitt.edu (Kevin Mcnamara)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Could it be...
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:57:21 GMT
Distribution: na
Originator: kjmc@pmax1.cis.pitt.edu


   Could the famous "Scott Tai," be Samuel S.(Scott?) Tai of:

                  sstai@ocf.berkeley.edu

                 Only the shadow knows...
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: T: To All MENSA Members...
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:05:04 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.122010.7439@klaava.Helsinki.FI>, widenius@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Risto Widenius) writes:
> 
> >sat@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Andrew Tai) writes:
> [blah blah..]
> >     The problem with MENSA is the 2% rule, and it should be dropped.
> >
> >     I have felt for some time that MENSA members can be roughly
> >categorized into one of two groups.  Group A consists of those people
> [..blah blah]
> 
> HOLD IT!
> 
> Don't respond to this. It is not written by Scott, but by the gmc-
> semiconductor-fraud some months ago. Then again, it may very well
> be the same person.

Exactly.  Apparently, Tai forgot which of his personnae posted which
set of lies.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: scott@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Subject: T/ Scott Tai's "working" email address
Reply-To: tai@m-net.ann-arbor.mi.us
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 03:19:51 GMT


In article <1992Jul29.195035.959@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com>, wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com (Christopher M. Conway) writes:
|>Just wanted to let you all know, in case you didn't bother to try. I sent
|>email to the alleged "working" email address. It did get swallowed up, but
|>there has been no response. So I think it's probably attached to /dev/null.
|>Don't even bother.

Wrong.  Don't let the lack of a response discourage you--the email is
working, and will be read (and replied to) as soon as possible.

-- Scott Tai
   tai@m-net.ann-arbor.mi.us
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: daylength
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:39:55 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

>In article <XmS-J!C@engin.umich.edu>, willism@engin.umich.edu (Mark Benjamin Willis) writes:
>> 
>> I have a newspaper article somewhere in my files in which a group of 
>> scientists created a model of the celestial movements.  They ran the 
>> model forward and backward and found a day missing.  They checked the 
>> model several times and everything fit perfectly except that a day was
>> missing a couple thousand of years ago.  One remembered the Bible story

This implies they had access to an astronomical ephemeris for some year 
about 2000 years ago, to check their model against.  And that they happily 
assumed this 2000 year old document to be more accurate than their model, 
even though the dating system we now use didn't yet exist.

Grow up

I though this was rec.org.mensa, not rec.nutty.as.a.fruit.cake

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  I don't take part in any sport that requires me to change clothes  |
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44)061-275-6033  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Subject: Re: More on the AG
Originator: cjdcosta@zepplin.ece.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 03:34:53 GMT


Sorry for posting a followup to the Tai thread under this heading..I must have
goofed up somewhere. The article has been reposted under the right heading.
My apologies for the wasted bandwidth.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com (Christopher M. Conway)
Subject: Re: T/ Re: Joining
Reply-To: wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com
Organization: Prickly Wombat Enterprises
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:55:27 GMT


In article <1992Jul30.021136.19068@ncsu.edu>, scott@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
- 
- So MENSA amounts to a social club with a test score requirement?  I see...

Yep. That's what a number of us have been telling you since day one. Have you
got a problem with that ( I ask rhetorically B^{)> )?
--
Boycott Kodak
--------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher M. Conway		| U*ix and C Guru
wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com      | Legalize Freedom!
wombat@juliet.ll.mit.edu        | Marrou/Lord in '92!
nfinit::wombat (DECnet internal)| (505)761-2413 DTN 552-2413
--------------------------------------------------------------
In no way should any statement, question, or other transferral
of information in this post should be construed in any way
as being an official communication of Digital Equipment
Corporation.
From: sya@pe1.pe.utulsa.edu (Syed Shibli)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Admission to Mensa
Date: 29 Jul 92 01:14:12 GMT
X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA01897; Tue, 28 Jul 92 19:34:36 -0700
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catapcnl@NeXTWork.Rose-Hulman.Edu. (Chris Lawrence) writes:

>In article <1992Jul28.194952.24293@fcom.cc.utah.edu> knechod@stacc.med.utah.edu  
>(Kevin Nechodom) writes:
>:In article <920725164248.2080b8a7@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU> SSR48327@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU  
>(Syed Shibli) writes:
>:[deleted stuff]
>:>  The SAT cutoff is 1250 (or 1300 prior to 1970). 
>:>                                              --Syed Shibli
>:Hmm.  I was about to make some wise crack about the entropy of
>:intelligence (evidenced by the decline in the SAT cutoff) when I
>:realized that I needed a little more information.
>:
>:Is anyone aware of the reasoning behind the change?  Since the scores
>:are standardized, I don't think any comparison is possible, but maybe
>:there was a change in the calculation?
>:
>:Who knows?
>:-- 
>:Kevin Nechodom UofU STACC        | Great Moments in Physics History:
>
>I think they re-normed the SAT in 1970.  Apparently, *too many* people were  
>getting high scores :-).  (I can say this since I got a 1320).

  I apologize for the typo in my original posting. The SAT cutoff
  was modified to 1250 in 1977, and not 1970. I'm not sure if they
  renormed the scores or not, but from Mike's earlier posting on the
  mean SAT scores for the past two decades, there wasn't much variation
  in the mean scores on both sections.

--
Syed Shibli                           | Tel: +1 918 631 3257
505 South Gary, #14, Tulsa, OK 74104. | ssr48327@vax1.utulsa.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jlc5f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jean L. Cooper)
Subject: Re: Newsletters and Dues (was Re: Mensa national versus local, New York City)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:04:48 GMT

Hey, am I supposed to be the "angel in the loft" here? 8^)

Ask me a question and I'll try to give you a direct answer,
but I'm not going to monitor conversations.

If you want a copy of the pertinent ASIE (Actions Still
in Effect) that describe what is considered a "newsletter"
for the purposes of getting the dues allottment, I will
be glad to search it out.
--
Jean L. Cooper    (BITNET: JLC5F@virginia.edu   CIS: 70253,1114)
"The true University of these days is a Collection of Books." 
                                           --Carlyle
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ vs. Faith
Date: 29 Jul 92 18:27:16 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Jul27.230910.15059@isrc.sandia.gov> smlacke@isrc.sandia.gov (Scott M Lackey) writes:
}From article <1992Jul27.190122.26182@ttinews.tti.com>, by hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath):
}> In article <1992Jul23.210747.23644@infonode.ingr.com> crossgl@infonode.ingr.com (Gordon Cross) writes:
}> 
}> }Actually, I understand that it takes some number of *millions* of years for
}> }the energy created in the sun's core to reach its surface.  Sudden failure
}> }of solar fusion wouldn't be noticed for some time.  Who knows but what it may
}> }have quit 10,000 years ago.
}> 
}> I understand there's concern about this in some scientific circles.
}> Something about the Sun not producing the predicted number of neutrinos.

}	My knowledge on neutrinos may be well out of date, but I was
}  under the impression that neutrinos interacted so weakly with 
}  other matter that we could not easily detect them.  Is it
}  really possible to detect them easily enough for a comparison
}  with prediction to have any meaning?

Not easy, but possible.  The facilities required are massive and need to
be buried at the bottom of coal mines to eliminate certain kinds of
interference.  Further it takes a long time to detect a significant number
of neutrinos.  Never the less, they've been at it long enough to wonder
why they haven't detected as many as predicted.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405 {rutgers|pyramid|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: More on the AG
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:19:19 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.171850.4805@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, edp@math.zko.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Jul22.150309.1621@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
> jlc5f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jean L. Cooper) writes:
> 
> >If you have concerns about the speed with which
> >they are done, I suggest you discuss it with me personally,
> >or, better yet, run for the office of Secretary.
> 
> In suggesting I should run for Secretary, you presume some improvement
> would result.  That is false, as taking the office of Secretary would
> take my services away from my local chapter, where I serve as a local
> officer and typist (120 wpm) for our newsletter.  My time is better
> invested where the benefits of Mensa most come from:  local chapters.

No, your time would better serve only one local chapter.  Yourduties as
local officer and typist for your newsletter do not benefit any chapters
other than your own.  You also imply that Jean is doing a better job as
national secretary than you would be able to do.  Since you won't run
to replace her, do you have anyone in mind who should?  If not, why are
you criticizing her efforts?

If there were no national (or international) organization, there would
be no local groups, becasue there would be no organization for them to
be local groups of.
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: T: To All MENSA Members...
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:01:28 -0500

RMS0214@MVS.CC.NCSU.EDU writes:

 R> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:

 DA> what can we expect from
 DA> a proven liar who hides behind a nonexistent address, constructs invalid
 DA> arguments from outdated evidence, and ignores not
 DA> only current data, but even
 DA> those who know what they're talking about from firsthand experience?

 R> Do you have anything better to do with your time than launch
 R> personal attacks

Of course I do, such as relate proven facts, as I did above.  But it seems Scott
Tai has nothing better to do, at least in this 'group, than launch attacks upon
Mensa as a whole and its members as individuals - and to do it exactly as I said
above.

 R> on individuals attempting to do some good?
 R> I have no idea who Scott Tai is,

Then how do you know he's "attempting to do some good"?  Or do you mean you
don't know him personally, but you have read his messages, from which you
somehow manage to come to the conclusion that he is attempting to do some good? 
(A conclusion completely opposite my own, of course, and that of almost
everybody here who has said anything about him.)

Or are you "Scott Tai" under yet another fake name?  Your note immediately
followed one of his in my mail delivery here, and is also from ncsu.edu, so I do
have suspicions....

 R> but your post is clearly a personal attack

You think THAT'S a personal attack?  Ha!  It's merely a completely factual and
PROVEN description of his veracity, address, and style of argument.  If you
wanna see some personal attacks, I'm sure we can oblige.  Just to demonstrate
for you what they look like, of course, so you won't get confused any more....

 R> which has little to do with the Mensa issue.

Since when does everything here have to have anything to do with "the Mensa
issue", whatever that may be?  Who appointed you Moderator?


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: mingmar@cs.mcgill.ca (Ming MAR)
Subject: Re: IQ vs. Faith
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 09:58:27 GMT

In article <zlsiida.1000@fs1.mcc.ac.uk> zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk 
(dave budd) writes:

>a frog appeared - fully grown, and there's never been a frog in my pond 
>before! - and as soon as our eyes met, the wisdom of the ages entered my 
>mind.  You are right about the feed-a-cat rite though.

Your eyes aren't suppose to meet, your lips are.  You're supposed to 
kiss the frog.

BTW, why feed a cat to a frog?

From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: T: To All MENSA Members...
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 22:08:30 -0500

gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:

 g> Call [...] the SIG the Antimensig.

But people might think it's about feminism.... <gd&rlh!>

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: mortenaa@Lise.Unit.NO (Morten Aagaard)
Subject: Re: Why GREENSleaves?
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 19:35:17 GMT

I guess the Martians has the same problem as LA...
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sat@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Andrew Tai)
Subject: Re: T: To All MENSA Members...
Reply-To: tai@m-net.ann-arbor.mi.us
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 20:10:23 GMT


In article <3762@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, nick+@pitt.edu (Nick C De Mello) writes:
|>In article <1992Jul23.213518.6135@ncsu.edu> tai@m-net.ann-arbor.mi.us writes:
|>>
|>>MENSA is simply one more dangerous way in which one group of people
|>>attempt to set themselves apart -- and by 'apart' one invariably finds
|>>'superior', since few people desire to join an organization which
|>>claims its members are 'inferior' -- from the rest of the populace.  Of
|>>such "harmless" little groups are born the divisive philosophies which
|>>feed nationalism, racism, and separate us from each other.

|>   No, I wouldn't join a group that claimed it's membership was inferior
|>to others.  Neither would I join one that claimed superiority to others.
|>I think you're right, either attitude breeds unnecessary conflict.  I'm
|>quite satisfied with mensa, which claims only the third and unmentioned
|>option of equality.

|>   Yes mensa is an organization of people who score higher on some tests.
|>You've stated your opinion on the validity of these tests, and I accept
|>it.  Whether or not these tests actually give some measure of the 
|>elusive and subjective quality intelligence, seems aside from the
|>point.  You object to the fact that this criteria is used as a basis
|>for membership.  What I would like to know is, if this is the only 
|>membership criteria you object to.  Do you also object to such
|>organizations as the Grey Panthers, the Bald Eagles, the Boy Scouts
|>of America, the Pilipino American Alliance, the Gay and Lesbian
|>Alliance, ROTC, the United States Army, the American Chemical Society,
|>the Tom Thumb Society, or the Catholic Church, which make membership
|>dependant on such factors as age, religious beliefs, occupation,
|>sexual preference, heritage, nationality, height, or baldness?  

Only if they have their own newsgroups! :-)

You may be wondering -- Did I have a bad week and decide to take it out
on MENSA?  Did I not qualify so I have an on-going vendetta against MENSA?
Am I a social egalitarian with a hatred for any kind of an elite 
organization?  The answer is none of the above.  My real agenda is not to
pound on MENSA, but instead concerns something different; specifically,
the question of what MENSA is and, more importantly, what MENSA should be.
MENSA has both the structure and charter to be something great, but it is
far from that now, and that's a shame.


-- Scott Tai - AI Lab
   sat@ailab.ncsu.edu
or tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: IQ vs. Faith
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:18:48 -0500

johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com writeth unto ye masses:

 J> A "day" is defined as being from one sunset to the next.

Which requires more than the presence or absence of light, but an actual sun TO
set.  Otherwise, we could consider extreme overcast, or a solar eclipse, or
sudden failure of the solar fusion reactions to be "sunset".


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: scott@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Andrew Tai)
Subject: Re: T: To All MENSA Members...
Reply-To: tai@m-net.ann-arbor.mi.us
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:46:09 GMT


In article <EePr0kO00VRSMCTT95@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Stephen P. Marting" 
<sm6h+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

|> So you're saying then that every organization should be open to
|> everyone?  Since Mensa "discriminated" against others when they accepted
|> me because of my SAT scores, then other organizations, say NCSU,
|> shouldn't "discriminate" by using SAT scores?

     No one can deny that minority groups in this country do poorly on
standardized intelligence tests, particularly on the SAT and PSAT.
Schools, universitites, and Old Guard fans everywhere use this to
uphold their own racial stereotypes, to label minority groups as
"ineducable."

     Personally, I have absolutely no doubt that blacks, Hispanics, 
and other minorities are of equal intelligence, on average, to the 
average white.  I do not want to accuse MENSA of racism here, but 
how the hell do you explain these testing differences?  If you assert 
that IQ and aptitude tests measure skills that are unrelated to 
differences in education and social background (which is the position
of all psychometric purists), you can come to only two logical 
possibilities:

    (1) The tests are culturally biased towards white Anglo-
        Saxon Americans, generally from the middle to
        upper-class.  What they test is your linear
        distance from the bias of the test-maker, who is almost
        always white, male, and upper-middle class.
    (2) Minority groups are less intelligent than whites, as
        demonstrated by your beloved "measurements..."

     Sorry, but if you eliminate differences in education, social
background, culture, "coaching," and upbringing as possible factors,
you must conclude that #2 is the correct answer.  And if you do, you
have just jumped into the pit with Hitler, Brigham, Laughlin, Galton,
and a bunch of other cool dudes.  Enjoy the smell.

     And if you pick #1, then you must conclude that the college 
selection system in America as well as MENSA's own membership criteria
are both fundamentally flawed.  (If you find another possibility, I
would like to hear it.)

     I have given many MENSANS and other assorted IQ-freaks this little
paradox.  In most cases, I end up finding out that they are either
hopelessly misinformed or totally racist.

     You might ask yourself, "Why is this guy going on like this?"  I 
really believe that you guys deserve to be kicked in the ass every now
and then by someone who studies the brain scientifically.  And I am no
exception to the ass-kicking.  Kick back; I will enjoy it.  I enjoy 
intelligent debate, for it makes me and those I debate stronger in the
process.

-- Scott Tai
   tai@m-net.ann-arbor.mi.us

PS to Mike Steiner:
Get some rest; take your vitamins.  Don't be obnoxious.  You are NOT as 
smart or precious as you think you are.  You are a lump of dysfunctional 
proteins riding on a creaky old planet with 5 billion other lumps 
weighing it down.  Grow up.


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: hellmond@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Peter H. Hellmonds)
Subject: What about electronic newsletters?
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU
Organization: graduate of Princeton University, NJ, USA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 05:18:23 GMT


Isn't it about time we get some electronic Mensa Newsletters?

Who's going to be posting the first scanned / transposed into
ascii characters electronic mensa bulletin / newsletter here?

-- (M) Peter 
-- 
Peter H. Hellmonds - 1614A 'Q'-Street, NW - Washington, DC 20009, USA
Tel (202) 462-9687 (home) - (   )    -     (off) - Fax (609) 258-2809 
Internet: hellmond@phoenix.Princeton.EDU --- BITNET: HELLMOND AT PUCC 
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance".   --  Derek Bok 
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: BEACH-BABES
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:26:42 -0500

SSR48327@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU (Syed Shibli) asks:

 SS> are there people in the ozone hole? And if there
 SS> is, can I go meet them? Will I be able to break a twenty?

If you hit it hard enough....

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa