From: dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 20:33:06 GMT

roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>In article <dobo.718777510@swalwell> dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz) writes:
>>roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>>[...lots of stuff deleted...]

>>>Well, "recently" must mean "within the last decade or so."  After all,
>>>around 1968 there were *massive* falsifications of Polish history wrt
>>>WWII, the Jews, etc.  Even the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was revised to
>>>be understood as more a Polish rebellion than a Jewish one.  See
>>>Dawidowicz.

>>I consider myself to be well versed in history, but I have not yet heard
>>this one. I do not know anybody by the name Dawidowicz, so instead of

>Lucy Dawidowicz, _The Holocaust and the Historians_, Harvard, 1981.  Adam
>cited the book just a few days ago.  She also wrote _Hitler's War Against
>the Jews_.

>>seeing him/her, may I ask you to give some details of this revision. I
>>really want to know who wanted to "polonize" the Ghetto Uprising and for

>Gomulka certainly wanted it, as part of the anti-Semitic campaign of the
>government.  Historians whom Davidowicz names as working toward this
>goal include Pilichowski, Walichnowski, Poteranski, and others.  The 
>Polonization of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising itself was accomplished by
>one Eugeniusz Duraczynski, who, according to Davidowicz,

>"was obviously trained in Marxist historiography.  Since anti-Nazi
>resistance was, according to Duraczynski, logically the province of
>the Communist-led proletariat, the Jews, having been primarily
>artisans, tradesmen, and profssionals in prewar Poland, could not
>have playeda significant role in the resistance movement.  Consequently,
>Duraczynski argued, the Warsaw ghetto uprising was accomplished mainly
>by Poles: "The Jewish population, first imprisoned in ghettos and later
>exterminated in a body, neither participated in principle in the Polish
>resistance nor organized a resistance movement of its own (the uprising
>in the Warsaw ghetto in the spring of 1943 was the exploit off
>barely a few hundred Jewsih combatants armed and supported by the
>Polish resistance)." "  (p.118)

So I guess the critical words are "armed and supported by" which you
equate with Polonization. While the claim of arming and supporting the
Jewish fighters may be viewed as pretentious (or absurd, to some), I do
not see how it can be equated with "Polonization" by anyone.
Or is it the question of the number of Jewish fighters in the uprising?
Note that your quote of Mr. Du. is preceded by Ms. Da. own words:
>...Duraczynski argued, the Warsaw ghetto uprising was accomplished mainly
>by Poles: "
and only then she quotes his own words which say no such thing (although
the accuracy of these words may be contested).

[...]

>>>Well, why not?  I'd *love* to hear how Polish anti-Semitic sentiments
>>>grew, why they infected the nationalist parties, why the Aryan legislation
>>>of Nazi Germany began to be copied in Poland in the late 30's.  These 
>>>causes are the very thing that interests me.

>>Could you give ONE example of "Aryan legislation of Nazi Germany" (or
>>anything even remotely similar) that was adopted by the parliament of Poland
>>in the 30s?

>Not by the parliament, but, as I have cited before, by professional
>societies of architects, doctors, and engineers.  On the other hand,
>many of Poland's political parties were officially anti-Semitic.

I am sure you know that the word "legislation" relates to passing LAWS,
not codes of societies. So when you used "legislation" in your text, you
made readers believe that the parliament passed some laws with these
properties. And that was and remains a lie. And you spread it; in this
case not informing that you are quoting somebody else.

When it comes to societies, what exactly were these "Aryan [ideas] of Nazi
Germany" that they copied? Would someone who knows present them in some
detail? (I hope not to be labelled "idiot" just for replacing
"legislation" with "ideas")

>>I have to accuse you publicly of spreading lies. 

>Accuse Lucy Davidowicz, then; it's her book that I'm relying on.

All right, if you say so. But I did not accuse you of fabricating lies,
just of spreading them; in this case, you are spreading somebody else's
lies, and not your own. What difference does it make?

>>As you wanted examples of
>>anti-Polish false statements being promoted publicly by American Jews, you
>>have a good example now: one produced by yourself.

>Could you point it out to me?  I've documented everything I've written
>here.

Please tell us where you documented that:
>>>the Aryan legislation
>>>of Nazi Germany began to be copied in Poland in the late 30's. 

So far, your only "documenting" is to claim that Lucy Dawidowicz said so.


>>(Unless, of course, you give the example, in which case I will promptly
>>withdraw my accusations with appropriate apologies.)

>You know, you might *wait* next time, and just *ask* for the documentation.
	(I would still be waiting)
>Davidowicz's chapter on Poland (pp.88-124, plus copious endnotes) is
>well-researched, according to everyone I've asked.

>Seriously, before accusing someone of lying, please take the trouble to
>find out what they're talking about.  The book is readily available
>(Harvard UP keeps things in press) and is meticulously documented.

Please note that you did not give a reference to anybody nor any book in
your "Aryan legislation" piece. So your advice, while valuable, is a bit
out of place. Now that I know where the source of your opinions is, I may
actually do as you say, and read it.

>Roger

W. Dobosiewicz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish