From: ngopalas@ha05.eng.ua.edu (Nath S. Gopalaswamy)
Subject: Re: Were there universities in India before the British went?
Organization: The University of Alabama
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:34:39 GMT

In article <BuKqvL.5zI@apollo.hp.com>, nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
|> In article <190f13INNbgi@bigboote.WPI.EDU> wizard@maxine.wpi.edu (Ajay Khanna) writes:
|>   I'm not sure it's irrelevant.  "University" is a Latin word and 
|>   it may well be that if a North American or European asks "did you
|>   have universities" they may be referring specifically to western-
|>   style universities.   Or not.  The whole thing hinges on what is
|>   mean by "university".    For instance, did the early Chinese civil
|>   service schools constitute "universities"?  
|>   A similar question would be more usefully phrased, "what kind(s) of
|>   specialized higher education for the elite existed on the Indian
|>   subcontinent before the Europeans arrived?"   Culturally and techno-

Typically patronage of art depended on the whims and inclinations of the
king of that region. The Raya dynasty in South India is supposed to have
encouraged the formation of places of higher learning. But before the
British arrived, India was still in the dark ages. Repeated invasions by
Moslem and Mongol tribes weakened India from 14th century onwards.

|>   logically advanced societies have existed in that region for thousands
|>   of years, and such societies have the need to teach certain members
|>   skills that go beyond the basic cultural/religious knowledge that
|>   presumably all members of any society must be taught.  Subjects like
|>   science, writing, medicine, administration, military, and philosophy

Before the dark ages enveloped India, it had many advanced "Universities", the
most prominent being those at Ujjain, and later Nalanda. These were true
places of higher learning where philosophy and astronomy were taught. The
famous Aryabhatta, who is supposed to have formulated the "zero" in mathematics
and Sushruta, the first plastic surgeon in history, were products of such
patronage. Varanasi emerged as a place of higher learning in the late 11th 
and 12th century but mainly for religious and spiritual studies.


|>   in most societies are taught to those who will be members of the
|>   administrative/religious/military/cultural/economic elite.   But
|>   how this is done has varied widely between cultures and historical
|>   periods and whereas today we have the concept that an "educated
|>   man" should have a taste of all this, this certainly was not always
|>   true in the west, and I can only surmise this varied elewhere
|>   as well.  

The way education worked till the late 17 century was the "Guru" system. A
very well versed "Guru" would have a limited number of students under him,
typically far away from the city, and would provide his pupils intensive
coaching for 12-15 years. Children would be left in the Guru's care when
6 or 7 and would emerge into the world at 18, a man. Women were usually not
allowed to gain knowledge of worldly affairs like philosophy, literature,
martial arts etc. They were taught the fine arts instead like singing, dancing,
cooking, painting etc. The "Universities" were nothing but a congregation of
Gurus, prospective students had an easier time approaching them.

This also explains the enormous respect that elders and teachers are given.
The Guru for all practical purposes was the de-facto parent for the period
the child was under his care. Today this respect is being eroded everywhere
in India for better or worse. But no one can deny the power the Professors
and teachers still hold over the youth in colleges today.


|> 
|>   It does not follow that because something is not a "university" that
|>   it is, somehow less legitimate, less valuable, less honorable, etc.
|>   To suggest that things called "university" are better than things
|>   called something else, or structured along different lines is to 
|>   give in to European cultural imperialism.
|>    

Exactly! Though the Europeans did not abandon science like the Indians
did. Hence their current superior position in the world. If India had
continued its cultural and scientific domination from the BC's the situation
may be entirely different now. Unfortunately most Indians look more towards
their past more than their future. This will keep it a Third World country.

|>                             
|> >had clothes before the British came, too.  That they were a different
|> >kind of clothing is irrelevant. 
|> 
|>   I'm not sure this is a good analogy.   To cite clothing, how would you
|>   answer an inquiry along the lines of, "Did Indian businessmen wear suits
|>   before the Europeans arrived?"   It becomes necessary then to find the 
|>   a close mapping to "businessmen", which would probably be to various
|>   merchant or trader classes.  And then if they had some clothing that
|>   was unique to them (i.e., if a merchant could be distinguished by
|>   his dress from, say, a farmer, a religious man, etc) you could call
|>   whatever that was a "suit".   And scale all this by the way the concept
|>   of "suit" has changed over the centuries.    It would be much better
|>   to phrase the questiom, "did Indian merchants wear clothing that 
|>   distinguished them from other social/economic/trade classes, as Euro-
|>   pean merchants did?".
|>   
|>   The problem is that trying to find 1:1 mappings between things in different
|>   cultures often result in awkward nonsense such as when Christian children
|>   in America are told that Hanukkah is the "Jewish Christmas".   

This reminds me of a story about Solomon and Richard the Lionheart during the
crusades. There was a meeting between them at Richard's request. He wanted to
show it was hopeless to resist the crusaders. He arranged for a demonstration
of his prowess. He ordered an iron bar to be placed on two columns and broke it
into two with a powerful stroke of his sword. In reply Solomon threw up a silk
scarf into the air and with a small slice of his scimitar cleaved it into two.
His swordmakers had learned the way Indians molded layers of metal into a razor
sharp edge. This essentially illustrated the difference in approaches between
Western and Eastern minds. The current Western civilization has to its credit
manage to incorporate both finesse and power. Japan is the only Asian to have
successfully integrated this into this culture and they are reaping huge rewards 

|>   
|> 
|> ---peter
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> 

Nath.
-- 

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