From: mjb@acsu.buffalo.edu (Matthew J. Bernhardt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.moria
Subject: Re: Proposal: Beefing up "Holy Word" IV
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:27:49 GMT
Organization: UB

jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph E. Beck) writes:


>>        I dispute the contention that priests are the most powerful class in
>>the game.  Clearly, at high levels, priests can dish out a lot of damage.
>>However, they must get there first.  Some of the obstacles:

>Yeah, and at 9th level they have 50% chance of becoming gross.

>>     - Low level priests lack any offensive magic capability whatsoever.
>>They must fight hand to hand, or stock up on wands and projectile weapons,
>>an expensive proposition.  Mages on the other hand can take Magic Mis

>Ok, so the low level priest is a half troll.  So he has a couple times
>the hit points of your mage, fights a hell of a lot better, and
>doesn't have the mana problems of having magic missile.  Half troll

	Mana problems?  Roll up a mage with 18/50 intelligence and this
is not a problem.  Try getting 18/50 wisdom with a half troll.

>priests are weak warriors until they get OOD which should happen by
>13th level (by this point you have a *very* high chance).  If you have
>problems surviving to 13th level with any class (discounting random
>hosage, like black mambas at 50 feet of course...) you have problems
>with the game.
	
	I must admit that I don't like the tone of this statement - it is 
contemptuous of new and learning players.

>>      - Mages can select the spells they wish to learn. Priests get their 
>>prayers randomly - bestowed by the gods.  There's no telling when the Orb of 
>>Draining will be learned.  (I had one priest learn it at level 9 (YESSSSS!) 
>>and other at level 28 (OUCH!!))
>Sorry, I don't except the "well, there's a really small chance this
>will happen" argument.  There's a *chance* you mage will walk into the
>dungeon, get attacked by 2 p's that steal 2 spell books and be total
>screwed, while the priest just beats them up.

	When you consider every prayer that a priest has to learn, this IS a
pain.  I have also had priests not learning such basic prayers as Call Light
until very high levels.
	As for the theft remark, what self respecting mage will let him or 
herself get touched in the first place?  It's hand to hand combat where this
becomes a problem.

>>      - Priests don't get Identify, mages do.  Since mages can Identify EVERY
>>item they encounter, they are far more likely to find that Defender laying 
>>around at 300 ft (I had this happen.) than is a priest.  A big plus.

>Wow.  Another obscenely low probability situation.  I'm not impressed.
>You are correct in saying mages getting identify makes them much
>better.
	You make the error of looking at only this one "obscenely low
probability situation."  When you consider all the items that a priest leaves
strewn about the dungeon (nice (R) suits of armor, ego weapons etc.), this
obscenely low probability becomes obscenely high.

>>        - Mages get Haste Self.  A big edge against higher level monsters.
>Yes.  You've found the 2 areas mages actually excell in.  Now consider
>these:
>	Who fights better in hand to hand (or don't you run out of
>	mana)?

	Who is better suited for hit and run combat?  What I don't like here
is that this type of thinking assumes that there is one best style of play,
while discounting the fact that different players have different temperaments,
making them suited to different playing styles.

>	Who gets better combat spells (I'll take OOD against anything)

	OoD is only superior at high levels, a point I never disputed.

>	Who gets better info spells?  
>		detect evil > detect monsters

	Moot, as I've argued in earlier posts.

>		magic mapping > nothing

	An undisputed advantage.

>		detect doors+detect stairs < detect doors/stairs
>			(slightly)
>	Who gets more hp?
>	Who can be a half troll?

>>        - The last spell learned by mages, Genocide, is infinitely more useful
>>than is the last prayer learned by priests (Holy Word).  It is this imbalance
>>that I am trying to correct.

>Yes!  They have a weakness.  Now you aim to correct it.  sigh...
	
	I have no problem with a class having a weakness, as long as it is
consistent with the overall theme of the class.  It makes little sense to
me to handicap priests by making them wait until level 39 to learn a useless
prayer.  If you wish to propose imposing a new weakness on the priest class,
that is a valid topic of discussion - but not in this particular thread.

>Priests fight better physically, fight better magically, and have
>better detection abilities than mages.  The only advantages mages have
>are "misc spells" haste self, stone to mud, identify.  I'll take the
>priest.  Have you ever actually played a half troll priest?
	
	As I've stated above, I think you've given short shrift to many of my
arguments.
	As for half-troll priests, mine is currently level 40.  And yours? :-)

>>    Mages already have a spell for Ancient Dragons.  It's called Haste
>>Self.  Prior to finding Rings of Speed, my priest hated those critters because
>>he was so SLOWWWWWWWW. (Normal speed is slow for Ancient Dragons.)

>Mages can run from Ancient Dragons.  Priests just kill them.

	More precisely, mages can run around Ancient Dragons - and kill them.

>>Moreover, priests tend not to be as affluent, and this will be a bigger drain
>>on their budgets.  Also, do not discount the deleterious effects of having
>>charges drained from certain life saving items (e.g. Staff of Teleportation,
>>Curing, etc.)

>Around the time you run into disenchanter bats money stops being an
>issue.  It's do you bother to dig it out of walls that is the
>question.

	I see you discounted my second remark.  Money is not the issue when
you are blind and confused, and your Staffs of Curing, Teleportation etc. have
been drained.

>I don't know, doesn't anyone else see the half troll and say "wow.
>this race is mondo".  Then look at the priest and say "wow, fights
>incredibly well, has the best detection in the game, *and* they can be
>half trolls".  The only argument I see is whether paladins are better,
>because mages/rangers sure aren't.

	The fact that there is not a huge flood of posts in support of this
would seem to indicate that there is more than meets the eye.  Yes, the
half-troll priest is a fine character to play.  But he is not the alpha and
omega of Moria characters.
-- 
Matt Bernhardt
University of Buffalo            If it is to be, it is up to me.
mjb@acsu.buffalo.edu
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