HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:22:09 GMT


I am not denying that this Hadith exists, I will just add some information
that you will need before going to the books and start digging up Hadiths:

1)Muslims have two attitudes toward Hadith in general depending on the
purpose behind them:
a)If the Hadith is a piece of knowledge: meaning that we are extracting
some Abstract information from them (Ilm), then we cannot take the information
and believe in it unless the Hadith is certain (certain to have been said
and clear and exact in meaning that information).. Many scholars do not
accept Hadith from only one source as a certainly authentic Hadith.
which includes single-narrator Hadiths in Muslim and Bukhari.
(which is the case for the Hadith in question).
b)If the Hadith is an istruction to do something, then a single narrator
is accepted if he  (and everybody in the chain) are trustworthy beyond
any doubts. This is the case with most Hadiths in Bukhari and Muslim..
(but not all, even for Sunnah). The Hadith is not an instruction it is
a prophecy..

2)If a Hadith CLEARLY contradicts many things that are clear and certain
in Quran, then it is rejected as unauthentic. The same if it contradicts
Hadith that is generally accepted as Certain.

Let me just say that it is certain in Islam that:
1)Muslims should not fight people who do not fight them,
2)Muslims should not kill women, children, old men, or monks under any
circumstances, unless of course they are in the enemy's army.
3)Muslims should not kill people after they repent and throw away their arms.

So if anybody sees anything that contradicts this, it is not Islam.
The above are clear instructions that must be followed by Muslims in all
times, while the Hadith is a prophecy about the future that might or might not
contradict those instructions depending on the interpretation.
=============================================================
Modified Murphy's first law of realistic probability:
If it can happen, it will happen...
Unless of course "it" is a good thing.
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
Ilyess Ben Ali Bdira    Montreal Quebec  Canada
E-mail ilyess@ECE.concordia.CA, benali@alcor.concordia.CA
Phone Number and Address variable...
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
So if anybody sees anything that contradicts this, it is not Islam.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: steven@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Berson)
Subject: Re: Kahane's philosophy
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 18:01:09 GMT

hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker) writes:

>Since Israel is the only nationality which the US allows it's citizens to aquire
>without losing US citizenship there has always been a problem with American
>imigrants to Israel who were quite happy to vote for an extreemist line but
>always knew that they had a safe bolthole to run to if things got nasty.
>Phill Hallam-Baker

Is there any factual basis for this claim?
Thanks,
Steve

-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: theocratic states
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:30:31 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1992Dec13.1777.21017@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Goof

>  > 1. When did Israel object to the US becoming a Christian
>  > theocratic state?

>The organized American Jewish community is the most vociferous
>critic of any hint that the U.S. might be or become or ever was a
>Christian state, politically or culturally. When a U.S. governor

Which fails completely to answer the question, which was:
When did *Israel* object to the US becoming a Christian theocratic
state?

Amercian Jews, citizens of the United States, have every right to
vocally support the first Ammendment, which prohibits this.  We have
historical reasons for not wanting to live in a "Christian" state.
But you should address the question of Israel objecting to the US
becoming a Christian state.

>(Fordice of Mississippi?) recent remarked, with simple accuracy,
>that the U.S. was predominantly a Christian nation culturally and
>historically, the loudest howls of outrage came from Jewish
>rabbis (according to The New York Times).

Actually, this is not really true.  Most of the founding fathers were
deists, and objected to the idea of making the US a christian nation.

>If the Christian majority in the U.S. did decide to change the
>rules, and institute a Christian state religion and issue special
>identity cards to Jews, they could point to the example of
>Israel--"the light unto the nations"--for a model of a righteous
>way to run a society. American Jews who enthusiastically support
>Israel could hardly object on conceptual or moral grounds. No
>doubt the Christian "rabbis" in the new state would offer Jews
>who did object the option of moving to Israel, where, according
>to Zionist and Orthodox Jewish doctrine, they belong anyway.

No, they couldn't.  We could damn well object on the grounds that the
US constitution forbids this establishment of a state religion.  The
United States is fairly unique in this respect.  Most states have some
official religion.

[Wayne's comments about how nice seperation of church and state deleted.]


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: More Greek Atrocities towards Supermarket Cashiers
Date: 18 Dec 1992 08:48:52 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Arxid, or the pride of AT&T, Hasan B-) Mutlu) writes:
(* (*      Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:
(* (*  
(* >Yea, one comment, Arxid Effendi... I just got a wonderful idea of what to
(* >do the next time an idiotic teenager working as a supermarket cashier
(* >makes cute remarks about Tri*'s name. How's this:
(* >        Tri* Family Massacres Dozens of Supermarket Cashiers
(* 
(* What else is new, anyway?
(*  
(*  <<In Corfu Jews were subjected to violent attacks and almost constant
(*   persecution by its Greek population. They had to row in the galleys
(*   even when they had committed no crime. They had to provide food and
(*   lodging for soldiers on demand, were required to go to Greek law courts
(*   on the Sabbath as well as during Jewish festivals, and as elsewhere in
(*   the Byzantine empire they were compelled to act as public executioners,
(*   adding to the public wrath to which they were normally subjected. After
(*   Venice took control of the island in 1386, conditions became even worse.>>
 
See, Arxid Effendi, the problem with the Jews of Corfu was that they were
running the local supermarkets. Since Jewish names are typically shorter 
and simpler to pronounce than Greek names, this was the root cause of the
conflict. 

 "A Greek would go to buy turkey and chicken at the local Jewish-run supermarket.
 Invariably the teenage daughter of the owner, let's call her Bitchme Errrrin,
 (with four r's, like Purrrrdue) would try some idiotic comment on the
 customer's name. The customer would then get pissed and perform indescribable
 acts of violence against Bitchme. It is theorized that the idiotic
 teenagers learned of the practice, called turk-o-phonics, during summer
 visits to the motherland. [1]"

 "The conflict continued thru the centuries as the Jewish run supermarkets
 had excellent prices and food stuff, but rude teenagers in the checkout
 line. Caught in the dillema of excellent prices vs. turk-o-phonics, the
 conflict widened... [2]"

[1] [2] "The Modern Supermarket, Myths and Truths", by Ispirtoski Sipaoglu,
Purrrrdue University, West Lafayette, TRNC, 1992, pages 22 to 22.

Spiros
--
(I think I forgot something)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Misrepresentations
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:36:56 GMT

<Bz9BnM.L4s@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>It's a mistake to treat Kaufman's or Evans' descriptions as
>remotely corresponding to my actual statements. I didn't say what
>Evans said I said. What I said is that there exists strong
>sentiment in Israeli society, and not only at the radical
 ^^^^^^^^
>fringes, for driving Arabs out of Biblical Greater Israel. 


	"Sentiment"?  Here is exactly what was said.


<Bz5HIy.8rM@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

WM> If Israel applies various devices to drive
WM> non-Jews out of Israel, how could it possibly complain if other
WM> nations in the world applied various devices to drive Jews from
WM> their midst?


	This struck me as suggesting Israeli policy rather than
	merely right-wing "sentiment".

	Careless rhetoric can lend itself to interpretations
	that suggest anti-Semitism, so I suggest careful use of
	quantifiers and qualifiers.
	Example:  "Jews are blind-supporters of Israel" sounds
	racist.  "Some Jews are blind-supporters of Israel"
	would be preferable.

	Neither of the following two revisions would have 
	sounded anti-Semitic to me, for example.
	
* If Israel decided to apply various devices to drive
* non-Jews out of Israel, how could it possibly complain if other
* nations in the world decided to apply various devices to drive Jews
* from their midst?

	
* If Israel applies various devices to drive some non-Jewish agitators
* out of Israel, how could it possibly complain if other nations
* in the world applied various devices to drive some Jewish agitators
* from their midst?


>A standard tactic of many pro-Israelists is to bend and distort
>statements out of shape with the object of dismissing them as
>anti-Semitic. This "clever" stratagem saves no end of trouble in
>having to conduct a fair and rational discussion about the
>substance of legitimate issues. It also has the unfortunate side
>effect of destroying the credibility of those who fall back on
>it.


	One could just as easily say that
	a standard tactic of many Israel bashers is
	to make accusations of distortion to defuse charges of
	anti-Semitism.

	A number of statements in this forum have elicted
	complaints of anti-Semitism, and this has often 
	resulted in an apology or clarification or revision.
	It is not so much that people "bend and distort
	statements out of shape" but rather that the statements
	themselves are so imprecise and insensitive that they
	are open to misinterpretation.  I myself have apologized
	several times for statements written in haste which
	appeared anti-Arab in nature.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:18:57 GMT
Reply-To: jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Organization: Teradata Corp., El Segundo, CA

In article <1992Dec10.174035.28319@dazixco.ingr.com> naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com writes:
>
>In article <1568@tdat.teradata.COM>, jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:
>>What "riot"?  The "police riot"?  The Muslims gathered to counter-protest
>>were deliberately or accidently tear-gassed and responded by driving the
>>militia from the plaza but not before one of there number was shot dead.
>>The crowd then stayed in the plaza until it was stormed by the militia using
>>automatic fire which killed the rest of the victims.
>
>I suppose that only due to your short memory you didn't state that those inocent
>people stormed the Jews that were praying there with a rain of stones.

Why would I state something that is not true?

The congregation at the Wall left when they heard the outbreak of gunfire.
What ever the intentions of those throwing stones (they could not see where
they landed), they were not posing a threat to anyone. 

Jon.
-

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Islam
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:09:33 GMT

In <4671@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

" In article <nabeel.724199557@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo) writes:
" >
" >    The punishment in Islam ranges from that of adultery to stoning them
" >to death, and then burning their bodies. The Iranian system's punishment
" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
" >is moderate. If I were a head of an Islamic state, I would feed them to
" >lions (alive) until I can think of an appropriately severe punishment.


" Oh Son Of Woman:

Rosignolo, signorina.

" You don't know the FIRST thing about Islam.

   This is an utter lie; witnessing and believing that God exists
and He is one, and Muhammad is his creature, servant and (last) 
messenger.

" It would be VERY wise of you to keep your mouth shut before you
" know what the hell you are talking about.

   That is exactly what I do.

" I'm tired of reading your filth and lies ... thank GOD you don't

   It would be very nice of you to refute my so-called lies instead
of firing allegations left and right. I am amazed that still exist
people who doubt what I write without any sure knowledge about it.

" represent anyone except the little distorted voice inside your
" mind.

   That is why I say it is fiction, but unfortunately, it is more
serious and accurate than most people's squeeze of their minds.
Sometimes, I feel embarrassed that I am a human being like some
others are, but then I remember that people much more decent than
I, were/are human beings, too.

" Anisa

   Now, "biZiMah," are you satisfied with your undocumented post?
People whose trust in me was shaken by Shaqeeqa's talk show are
invited to check it themselves for example in Abd-ur-Rahman
Al-Jazeeri, "Al-fiqh 'ala al-mathahib al-'arba'ah," Dar Ihya'
Al-Turath, Beirut, Lebanon.

   Shaqeeqa, do yourself a favour and acknowledge that I am not
an iced piece of cake, my flesh is bone-hard, not to mention my 
bones! Please, do us a favour and read about something before you
start hollering, you can save your vocal cords and our ears.

             _
 |\_________(@)= |CENSORED|    The above is fiction. I hope you
   \_\  --/ _/                      enjoyed it!
     \=====/       "wa lI qalamon  fI 'onmolI  'in hazaztohO            
        ||            famA  .duRunI   'aLA  'ahoZa   lmohaNadA
        ~~          'i_thA .sUla fawqa .Tirsi waq^o .sarIrihI
                     fa'iNa  .sulIla  lmashrafiYi  lahO  .sudA" 
                                           -- ibn Sana' Al-Mulk
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Malcom X
Date: 14 Dec 92 01:37:00 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec11.210839.20081@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
>
>>How do you think we feel about a masjid being destroyed by Islam-hating,
>>radical Hindus?
>
>	Probably pretty upset, but I was curious because the was no mention
>	of this anywhere on this group.  

Perhaps not on this group, but on the other relevant newsgroups it has
been mentioned and openly condemned.  What point were you trying to
make, by the way, that Muslims are not verbal enough?  (Don't you hate
that, though?)

>	I read it in the LA Times the day I posted I think it was Dec. 7.

I recall now that situation.  I heard it on one of the evening news channels.
This man is claiming that he was flogged for reporting faulty medical
equipment.  Since Saudi Arabia has the money for advanced medical equipment
and technology, it would seem utterly ridiculous that this situation would
have occurred.  While I do not absolve Saudi Arabia or other so-called
Islamic governments of human rights violations or abuses, this has nothing
whatsoever to do with Islam or Islamic law.  And it also not very wise to
believe everything that the media has to report without any facts or evidence
to support it.

Anisa
	"The best kind - angry, rebellious, critical - a renegade ..."
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:15:40 IST
From: Shaul Wallach <F66204@BARILVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Is Zionism a form of racism?

In article <1ga3j2INN4jc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark
Ira Kaufman) writes:

>TOPIC: Is Zionism a form of racism, or is'nt it ?
>Introduced by Elias Davidsson, Center for Policy Research, Iceland
>
>All contributions helping to clarify the above question are welcome.
>
>TO begin with, follows a short story from an Israeli newspaper.
>
>
>(lengthy racist FABLE deleted!)
>
>    This story never happened.  It is a fabrication.  You made no
>    attempt to show that this story was completely made up.  ...

     Not only that, but I just thoroughly searched Hadashot for the
original article in Hebrew and couldn't find it. Unless the CPR can
provide us with an exact, authentic reference, we will have to
regard this as the sick creation of modern antisemites, on the
same level as the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Shalom,

Shaul Wallach
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:47:24 GMT

In article <23061@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.182856.23705@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>
>> ...  I do know that numerous
>> PLO-affiliated activists who've stated even slightly non-standard
>> opinions have been forced to seek protection from Israeli authorities
>> not for being collaborators - which they're not - but just for speaking
>> something that some party or other doesn't approve of.
>
>This often repeated claim is absolute nonsense, completely untrue.  But
>here's Mr. Perlman's chance to redeem himself: Please post the names and
>circumstances under which PLO-affiliated activists who've stated
>"slightly non-standard opinions" have "sought protection from Israeli
>authorities".  Come on.  Let's see you do it.  You say "you know" of
>"numerous" such cases.  Describing ten (10) cases would be enough.  OK,
>five (5).  Alright -- just two (2).  Can you provide us ONE (1) example
>of a PLO-affiliated activist who did no more than state a slightly
>non-standard opinion, and as a consequence was forced to seek protection
>from Israeli authorities?

Steven Emerson, in the November 23,1992 edition of the New Republic,
documented two such cases, Dr. Arens; I will be happy to post the
information when I get home.  The claim is true.  I'd like to know what
your sources are, Dr. Arens - I think you, not I, need a chance to
redeem yourself - badly.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Kahane's philosophy
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:19:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.202654.14954@ifi.uio.no> michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec9.184933.1811@cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>> In article <Byv685.HBG@dscomsa.desy.de>, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker) writes:

>> |> Which he espoused from NYC.

>> As you well know Rabbi Kahane lived in Israel and served in the
>> Knesset for a time. Why even write half-truths like this?

>I just remember what a mass it became when the Rabbi was about to loose his 
>american passport, some years ago...
>
>Why is an advocate of "all jews to israel" so keen about keeping his american
>citizenship? Couldn't he visit america as a proud citizen of Israel? 

Anyone in their right mind is going to keep US citizenship with the
problems "foreigners" can have travelling here.  As an Israeli
citizen, he would need to get visas, work permits, and a whole load of
other crap which he doesn't need if he keeps his US citizenship.

>Wasnt it A PART OF THE PROBLEM that too many jews had other citizenships?

Gee, isn't it part of the problem that you preface an old anti-Semetic
canard with big capital letters so WE ALL SEE IT?

Adam



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23678 soc.culture.jewish:23365
From: trb@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Andrew Tannenbaum)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Broadcasts in the US
Date: 18 Dec 1992 17:58:35 GMT
Organization: Beth trb - Baruchline, MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <1gqk0rINNk04@early-bird.think.com> shaig@think.com (Shai Guday) writes:
>
>I seem to recall that the IBA (Israeli Broadcasting Authority)
>transmitted Israeli news and shows on short and long waves in the
>US.  Would anyone happen to have a list of the stations or a schedule
>of the transmissions?

Shortwave schedules for Kol Yisrael are available from
israel.nysernet.org, I forget what the filename is, exactly.

I sent a schedule of Jewish/Israeli cable tv shows to nysernet.org, I
don't know if they've been archived yet, but they should be:

	Andrew Tannenbaum   Brookline, MA, USA

<<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>

International Channel
12401 West Olympic Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064

Jewish Program Schedule December, 1992.  All times Eastern
(shown on cable TV around the USA)

Leon Charney Report
Mon 9:00 - 9:30 AM

Talkline with Zev Brenner
Sun 12:00 - 1:00 PM     Mon 4:00 - 5:00 PM

Jerusalem On Line with Michael Greenspan
Sun 1:00 - 1:30 PM      Tue 4:00 - 4:30 PM

Jewish Spectrum with Laurel Vloch
Sun 1:30 - 2:00 PM      Tue 4:30 - 5:00 PM

Israeli Classics with Itzhak Kol
Sun 2:00 - 3:00 PM      Wed 4:00 - 5:00 PM

Shalom Show with Richard Peritz
Sun 3:00 - 3:30 PM      Thu 4:00 - 4:30

Hineni with Esther Jungreis
Sun 3:30 - 4:00 PM      Thu 4:30 - 5:00
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Babri aftermath (Re: Malcom X)
Date: 14 Dec 92 02:38:32 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <Bz7nMK.E9p@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>
>I myself was really disturbed by the actions of Muslims in Pakistan, but
>I do not think Fanatism is the cause, the real cause is intolerence, extreme
>irrational emotions and hateful tribalism that is causing all of the violence
>in Elections for example.

The real cause is hatred of Muslims and retaliatory actions against them
because of political tensions (motivated by land and border disputes) by
destroying such a sacred religious site knowing that it would erupt into
further violence.  YES, it is DEFINITELY intolerable!

> Witness what happens even between Muslims in that
>region. The recent actions of Banazhir Butto to topple the government before
>election to take advantage of the ethnic strife in the country shows that all
>politicians are using those unfortunate characteristics of the laypeople in 
Pakistan for their political advantage. Butto of course is not called a fanatic.

Butto is against the government which impliments sharia and says that she
will fight it to the death.  Of course those who support her anti-Islamic
rhetoric will use it to their advantage politically.  On the other hand,
don't expect the Muslims to remain passive.

Anisa
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast