From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: Somewhere East or Somewhere West
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:29:31 GMT


In article <1992Dec10.130011.25255@bernina.ethz.ch> kessi@laplace.math.ethz.ch (Alain Kessi) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Dec9.190129.2357@cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
|> |> In article <4601@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
|> If Israel is not in the business of territorial conflict, then why doesn't it
|> just, like they were told by some UN resolution (was it 242, or is that another
|> one), get their armed forces out of the territories they occupied in 1967. The
|> Israelis might not consider this a territorial conflict, but the Palestinians
|> certainly do. They'd rather administer and rule themselves, even if there's no
|> guarantee that the country would be a model of democracy or economic efficiency,
|> seeing the surrounding countries. Even if some Palestinians fear that they will
|> have to fight for their rights even after a Palestinian state exists, virtually
|> none of them want Israel to stay there.

This is an incredibly difficult situation from the Israeli point of
view. I really can not see the feasability of a solution as simple as
the one you suggest. I have not expressed any opinions over this land
issue, because I honestly do not know of any good solution. The only
thing which I see as presently appropriate is for representatives of
the two people to talk to each other. This is happening. Hopefully,
with God's help, these talks will be productive. It is certainly
better than pointless violence.

|> Do they not? Well, the case you mention may be too specific to find an instance
|> of. They do prevent school kids from going to school once in a while, though.
|> They also put a siege on Al Najah University (was a year back, I think) in order
|> to inforce the Military Order that was supposed to end the independance of the
|> Palestinian universities by giving the military commander the right to prevent
|> a professor or other staff member from working there. They also prevent people

Palestinian universities have traditionally been hot beds of PLO
activity. The universities acted as PLO meeting place, arms store
houses and so on. Youth were being incited to physically attack
Israeli soldiers and civilians. Israel could (can) not possibly allow
things like this to happen with in its borders. In my opinion, Israel
has been overwhelmingly tolerant of the anti-Israeli activity which
went (and still goes) on in Palestinian controlled places of
education. Perhaps if Israel was stricter here the new generation of
Plaestinian youth would not have been as deeply affected by PLO
propaganda and would not have grown up with such hatred of Israel. How
man lives (Arab and Israeli) could this policy have saved? Countless,
I would say.

|> from getting a telephone (a friend's family in Al Khalil (Hebron) is still waiting
|> for one since 1976). These are not killings I mentioned. That's because I think
|> that living under humiliating conditions is comparably annoying to the threat of
|> getting killed one day. On top of that, of course, Palestinians do live under that
|> threat of getting killed. The fact is that because of the humiliating conditions
|> (plus historical reasons etc.) the Palestinians resent the Israeli presence, which
|> is bound to make the Israeli soldiers nervous, which again pushes them into
|> awkward situations where they shoot innocent Palestinians. I would not want to
|> be an Israeli soldier in the occupied territories, I can tell you. The only
|> solution is for Israel to withdraw.

I don't know if you have actually been in Judea and Samaria to see how
the people of whom you speak live. I have. What I saw was certainly
not on the level of life we are used to in America. However, these
poor living condition of which you speak are largely self-imposed. I
talked to many Israelis who said that they went to Arab markets in
Judea and Samaria, that they brought their cars to Arab mechanics,
that they went to Arab restaraunts - all before the Intifadah once
again reared its ugly head. Despite all this, I would still claim that
these Palestinians live better than their Arab counterparts in Jordan,
Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and so on.

Of course, the squalid conditions under which Palestinians are forced
to live in refugee camps in Jordan are completely disgraceful. My God,
if Arab in Jordan (and other Arab countries) care so much for their
Palestinian brethren, then why are the Palestinians forced to live in
these camps in Jordan? Why aren't these people allowed to live as do
the other Jordanians? The Palestinians who live in Israel have a FAR
better life than their counterparts in Arab countries. It would seem
that their fellow Arabs are more than willing to use the Palestinians
as political guinny pigs to make some point about what Israel has put
these people through. Of course, Israel has not put these people
through nearly so much as their fellow Arabs have. God, if they wanted
to, the Arab countries could tomorrow find more than enough land
for all the Palestinians to live on. This could easily put an end to
all the suffering that is now going on. The Arabs have so MUCH land.
Why do they not absorb their fellow Arabs into their midst? Perhaps
their love of the Palestinians is not nearly so strong as their hate
of Israel.

|> Try for one minute to imagine a kid who does not have the chance to live in
|> his own country, because some foreign military force is occupying it. His
|> cousin got killed by special forces, his father and brothers all jailed
|> several times, most of the times without charges. Now you're frustrated
|> and would like the situation to change. What do you do? The most reasonable
|> thing is to go to the military commander and ask him politely to refrain
|> from doing such things in the future. He might listen to you. If your
|> frustration has reached a certain level, though, you might not like the
|> idea of talking with the guy that for you represents the reason for your
|> frustration. You might just want him to know you resent him being there.
|> Because the commander himself is not in sight, you might just throw stones
|> at his soldiers. Is there no way you could sympathize with that? Just for
|> one minute?

I sympathize with the Palestinian plight. Although I believe a big
portion of it is purely self-imposed. I do not, nor can I ever,
sympathize with the Arab who out of some deep breeded hatred of Israel
stabbed and killed a young Israeli girl in Bat-Yam a few months ago.
Nor can I ever sympathize with the Palestinian who stabbed an Israeli
soldier in Jericho a few months ago. Nor do I sympathize with the
terrorists who only a few days ago openned fire on an Israeli patrol
car as it was driving down a highway - an incident which saw 3 Israeli
soldiers die. I do not sympathize with those whose idea of a solution
is aimless violence directed at my people.

I do feel very sorry for those in this conflict who are truly innocent
and who have wronlgy suffered - of these there have been all too many
Israelis and Palestinians. The solution is negotiations. The solution
is not violence, nor is it hatred, nor is it the incitement of
innocent youth to attack soldiers with rocks.

Don't you think the PLO knows that when kids throw stones at soldiers
that the soldiers will not be hurt. Doesn't the PLO know that when it
puts kids into such a situation, the Israeli soldiers who are being so
attacked may sometimes snap? Doesn't the PLO know that y telling kids
to do these things, it is putting the kids in a situation in which
they can easily lose their lives? Yes the PLO knows all this. And yet
it is still willing to sacrifice its own youth for the sake of
envoking some pity from the rest of the world. When I think about it I
do sympathize with these kids who are so much more the victims of
their own people than of Israel.

|> I do not believe that they hate Jews because they are Jews. There are some
|> Palestinians who do have revisionist views of WWII history, but I believe
|> that this is a (very unfortunate) side effect of their frustration with the
|> present situation. The reason they do hate Israel though is because that
|> country is occupying there land and preventing them from developing their
|> own strategy, be it politically or economically. That does not mean that
|> they hate all Israelis. They do have a problem with most of them because
|> they have been in the military, possibly even in the occupied territories.
|> Isn't that, in a way, understandable.

I think a large part of the Arab hatred of Jews and Israel is caused
by the incessant propaganda to which so many Arab youth are exposed.
You put a Jewish boy in a room withan Arab boy and they will begin to
play. You give the Arab boy a gun and teach him to hate the Jewish
boy, and when the two boys grow up they will no longer play. Unfor-
tunate that kids need to be exposed to their parent's hatred.

|> I agree with you about the difficult situation of Israel. I do think, though,
|> that since 1967 Israel has had some cards they could have played in negotiations
|> with Arab nations. Even though most of the time the Arab countries don't give
|> a shit about the Palestinians, exchanging the territories for peace or some
|> similar deal might have worked. It was worth a try, anyway.

Israel has always been willing to negotiate. It's the Arabs who have
been unwilling (with the notable exception of Sadat). Of course now
that the Soviet Union is no longer sending arms to Syria and now that
the world in general is somewhat disiilusioned with the likes of Sadam
Hussein, the Arab countries don't have much choice in the matter.
Negotiate they must. And Israel has been only to willing to partake.

|> What do you mean by 'its land'. Do you mean the 1948 borders, or do you
|> include the territories occupied in 1967? A large part of the Palestinians,
|> even if they'd love to go back to where they lived before 1948, e.g. in Haifa,
|> have understood that Israel is there to stay. But getting back the West Bank
|> and Gaza is something worth fighting for, I think. As for doing this with
|> terrorism, that is another question. If there are other means, those should
|> definitely be tried first.

Again, this is one of the most comlex situations in today's world. We
can only wait to see what the negotiations will bring about.

|> They are negotiating! And they gave in to all the preconditions Israel had.
|> They had no one from the PLO (it's a joke that Israel still doesn't accept
|> to negotiate with the PLO; Arafat is/was a terrorist, but then, so was
|> Begin, right? was his cause nobler?), no one from occupied East Jerusalem
|> (its annexion by Israel has not been accepted by the international community),
|> no refugees, no discussion about the UN resolutions.

Israel recognizes that the PLO exists. Israel simply does not want
to negotiate with what it considers to be a terrorist organization.
Israel has always had a policy of not negotiating with terrorists. So
this is nothing new. However, there has been talk in the Knesset about
getting rid of the laws which do not allow direct communiaction with
the PLO. Actually, this change is expected to take place quite
shortly.

Begin was not a terrorist. Hew was a freedom fighter and a very great
man. Arafat is neither. I will even admit that perhaps Arafat does
care about the Palestinian people. However, Begin never even dreamed
of using the methods which Arafat has coined. The Irgun Zvai Leumi
concentrated its attack on the Brittish military establishment. Never,
never, did the Irgun attack innocent civilians intentionally. Of
course, as in all other conflicts, the innocent did die. But generally
the Irgun had FAR more respect for Brittish and Arab lives than the
PLO has for Jewish lives. Its actions reflected this belief. On
countless occasions the Irgun would announce to Arab civilians in an
area targeted for attack that they should leave that area - often
this cost the Irgun the element of surprise. I can not ever recollect
the PLO caring very much about saving the lives of innocent Israelis -
probably because innocent Israelis are most often the targets of PLO
"freedom fighters". Everything that was noble in Begin is found warped
and twisted in Yasser Arafat. To even compare the two men is to do a
grave injustice to the memory of Menachem Begin.

Anyhow, sorry for ranting a bit more than I planned to. I found what
you wrote to be as sensible an opposing view as I've seen on tpm.
Hopefully, every thing will work out for the best some time soon.

Harry.