From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:41:26 GMT

From: robarr@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Robert O'Barr)
> I guess if we accept the notion that there is only "one" god and his
> name is Elohim or Jehovah and he cannot devide himself or confer his
> Honor, name or Glory to another, then we are faced with more than a
> few scriptural absurdities.

His name is Jehovah, and Elohim is a title.  I am uncertain what
you mean about a lack of 'deviding or confering'.  This may be
possible, but it is not the LDS position -- unless you mean 'devide'
in the sense of Jehovah being birthed by an exalted man in the
pre-existance.  This is what the Mormons teach.

>... The words Elohim
> and Jehovah are simlpy titles and/or a personal name.  In and of
> themselves they mean nothing.  For example Yahweh means "The self
> sustaining one." (I am that I am etc.) This title would apply to
> anything which could claim to be self-sustaining.  In mormon
> theology both God the Father and God the Son could be called
> Jehovah, Elohim, God, the Gods (See Abraham 4.1). And in order to
> explain certain passages in LDS scriptures, this flexibility of both
> name and title is readily apparent.  The father son and holy ghost
> are one God and between the three persons in the Godhead they share
> many names.

In the LDS the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are 'one God'?  I will assume
that was a typo -- as it is a well known fact the LDS beleive there
are three gods, not one.  God the father who gave birth to Jehovah
and the Holy Ghost, in pre-existence with his exalted wives.

Lets go over this again.  The LDS teach that Jehovah is Jesus,
and the Father is 'Elohim'.  To identify Jehovah with the 'Supreme
Diety' is 'thrashing in darkeness'.  The reason is that according to
current LDS doctrine, Jehovah was created by an exalted man with
his exalted plural wives via exalted copulation.  Regarding the
separatness of Jehovah and 'Elohim', the 1981 edition of the LDS
scriptures (the LDS KJV) says,

  'Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ and came to earth being born of
  Mary (see Mosiah 13:28; 15:1; 3 Ne. 15:1-5; D&C 110:1-10). Although
  Ex. 6:3 states that the God of Israel was not known by the name
  Jehovah before Moses' time, latter-day revelation tells us otherwise
  (Abr. 1;16; 2:8; cf. JST Ex. 6:3; see also Gen. 22;14).

        This can be found on page 711, and tells us that Jehovah is
Jesus Christ in pre-existence.  This again is stated more succinctly in
_Mormon Doctrine_, 'Christ is Jehovah; they are one and the same
Person.' pg.392.  _Articles of Faith_ echo this teaching, in _The Father
and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition_. where James Talmadge tells us,

  '... God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted
  name-title "Elohim," is the literal parent of our Lord and Saviour
  Jesus Christ, and the spirits of the human race. ... '
  '... With this meaning, as the context shows in every case, Jehovah
  who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim. ...'
  '... the solemn fact of the literal relationship of the Father and Son
  between Elohim and Jesus Christ.  Among the spirit children of Elohim
  the firstborn was and is Jehovah...'

This 'Doctrinal Exposition' from the 'First Presidency' states very
clearly that the 'Eternal Father' is 'Elohim' and is the 'literal
parent' of Jehovah.  Mormon Apostle McConkie elaborates this doctrine
and the meaning of the words.

  'The fact is, and Holy Writ so avers, that the three members of the
  Godhead are separate and distinct Persons; that they have their own
  bodies, occupy identifiable space, and are in one place only at a
  given time.
  Being thus aware of how far astray the religious intellectualists have
  gone in defining their three-in-one God, it comes as no surprise to
  learn that they thrash around in the same darkness in trying to
  identify Elohim and Jehovah and to show their relationship to the
  promised Messiah.  Some sectarians even believe that Jehovah is the
  Supreme Deity whose Son came into mortality as the Only Begotten.  As
  with their concept that God is a Spirit, this misinformation about the
  Gods of heaven is untrue.  The fact is, and it too is attested by Holy
  Writ, that Elohim is the Father, and that Jehovah is the Son who was
  born into mortality as the Lord Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah.'
  _The Promised Messiah_ p. 100

        In the preceeding, we have the statement from Mormon Apostle
McConkie that to identify the "Supreme Deity" as Jehovah is "untrue" and
shows that one is "thrashing around" in "darkness."  In the same passage
McConkie repeats his (famous) "interpretation" of Psalm 110:1 as used by
the Lord at Matthew 22:41-46.  McConkie, writing for the Mormons, says,

  'Can there be any question as to how Jesus is interpreting the words
   of the Psalm?  He is saying that it means:  `The Father said unto the
   Son, Elohim said unto Jehovah, sit thou on my right hand, until after
   your mortal ministry...'

        Yes, there is a *GREAT* question that this is the true meaning;
surely no one who knew Psalm 110:1 in Hebrew would have gathered
McConkie's meaning, that's for certain.  "Jehovah was speaking to
Adonai," not "Elohim speaking to Jehovah."  All of the Lord's hearers
knew that "Jehovah Elohim" was the only true God; they never dreamed
that Elohim was an exalted man who had given birth to Jehovah!  Anyway,
later on we read:

  'Our Lord, who is the Firstborn spirit child of the Eternal Elohim, is
  himself also the Eternal One.  Implicit in his spirit birth as the
  Firstborn is the fact that, as with all the spirit children of the
  Father, he had a beginning; there was a day when he came into being as
  a conscious identity, as a spirit entity, as an organized
  intelligence'(p. 165).

        So, here we have the idea of Jehovah 1) being the spirit child
of the "Eternal Elohim," and 2) Jehovah having an origin in time.
Obviously, then, prior to the birth of Jehovah, Elohim would not ever be
identified as "Jehovah," would he?  The separateness of Elohim and
Jehovah with reference to person is a constant theme of McConkie.  For
example, on page 294 he says, "It presupposes that the Father is one
person, the Son another."  Anyway, we also read in McConkie:

  'In our present Old Testament, Christ is called the Lord, which is the
  anglicized rendition of Jehovah.  Thus, Christ is Jehovah. Our
  Messianic studies would fall far short of the mark if we were not
  keenly aware that these two great name-titles apply to one and the
  same person.  Such is shown repetitiously throughout this work (p.
  306).

        Please note that these two great name-titles "apply to ONE and
the SAME person...."  In fact, McConkie said that it is "false" to
believe that Jehovah is the Father, and he said this with reference to
the interpretation of the Scriptures.  Note page 358:

  `Ye are the children of the Lord your God,' that is, of Jehovah your
  God, Moses proclaimed to Israel.   Even if it were falsely supposed
  that Jehovah was the Father and not the Son, as some sectarian
  Christians do believe, still it would be apparent that this statement
  could not be a reference to the preexistence of spirits...

        And when McConkie begins to present the idea that God the
Father, was the literal physical parent of Jesus Christ, he again
identifies the Father as Elohim (p. 467).  I see no conflict at all
between what McConkie says and what we find in the LDS dictionary:

  'Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ and came to earth being born of
  Mary (see Mosiah 13:28; 15:1; 3 Ne. 15:1-5; D&C 110:1-10).

  'Possibly the best known use of El is in Elohim, plural form
  signifying the "almighty" or "omnipotent," a name applied to the
  Father.

        Finally, in the LDS doctrine of the creation, Jehovah is
instructed by Elohim to "organize" the earth, which Jehovah does in
company with Michael the Archangel.  Obviously, this is the Father
speaking to the Son --  Elohim, one God, speaking to Jehovah, another,
and lesser (temporally speaking) God.  Again, McConkie on the 'seperate'
natures of Jehovah, and the Mormon 'Elohim father god',

  'God is and can be known only by revelation; the wisdom of the wise
  does not make him manifest, and all the conjecture and debate as to
  how this or that ancient name-title should be translated is as naught
  compared to one plain inspired utterance. These utterances we have,
  and because of them we know what was meant by the ancient prophets
  when they spoke of him under his name Jehovah.  The Almighty has such
  names as he has, and these are known to man only when he reveals them.
  We shall now, by way of illustration only and without any attempt at
  comprehensive coverage, note some of the revealed truths showing that
  Jehovah and Christ are one and the same person, the Eternal Son of the
  Eternal Father (p. 101).

        Two distinct persons, Jehovah the Christ, the Son of the Eternal
Father.  No mixture of the "names" here at all, is there?  And McConkie
asserts that we have "inspired utterances" to indicate to us who Jehovah
is.  And what was it he says on page 122?  "The whole Old Testament is
most explicit that the Deity in whose name the ancient prophets spoke
was Jehovah, NOT ELOHIM" (emph. mine).


        As for me, I will stick to:

  'I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no God [Elohim] beside
   me.' Isa. 45:5.
  'before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.'
   Isa 43:10.

Mark
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