HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:32:35 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.


Well, I have a solution to the problem of cows in wilderness.  Just
pursuade the local fish and game people to open a special 2-deer
hunting season in the area you want to clear of cows (that is, allow
each hunter to get 2 deer in this area).  This will
attract a *lot* of hunters.  Furthermore it will attract a lot of
real idiots to hunt the area.  I guarantee there will be fewer cows
after those guys get through.  

:-)  :-)

(They had such a season in NW New Mexico when I was growing up
there.  What a zoo.  Then it turned out that the deer population
wasn't that high after all - somebody saw a bunch of sheep tracks,
thought they were deer tracks and concluded that the deer population
was out of hand.)
From: roat@rrc.chevron.com (Suzanne Roat,Chevron,(510)242-5313)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Moving to California
Date: 10 Sep 92 21:10:15 GMT
Reply-To: roat@rrc.chevron.com
Organization: Chevron, Richmond, California

In article 18191@eos.arc.nasa.gov, dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco) writes:
>fletcher@remus.rutgers.edu (Sean A Fletcher) writes:
>
>>A friend and I are planning a move to California on or about the 18th
>>of September.
>
>Why California? 1 out of 10 people are unemployed (more are under-employed),
>massive layoffs, 2 billion dollars cut in education, housing prices remain
>shocking, empty commercial property may be the demise of one of the major
>banks (we'll see after the elections), and the traffic to get to our
>mountains is horrendous (once you're there you feel like you're in a foreign
>country). This is where you want to be?
>

More Reasons not to:
	1.  $300 surcharge for bringing car into state - this is on top
		of regular registration which varies from $50 to $200/yr
	2.  Outrageous state income tax - and nothing is deductable
	3.  It never rains in CA - and that's not just the title of a song,
		now entering a 6th year of drought
	4.  This truly is the land of fruits and nuts - and I'm not talking
		about stuff growing on trees - but if you take them away,
		all you are left with is the flakes
	5.  Traffic problems ALL the time, everywhere - getting to the
		"backcountry" is worse than commuting to work
	6.  90% of the state's population CANNOT afford a median priced house -
		median price about $230,000 (higher in some areas such as LA, SF)
	7.  Decaying public education system - CA ranks 42nd in the US in
		$'s spent per student
	8.  Decaying higher education system - tuition as gone up another 30%
		for CA residents attending Univ. of CA and CA State schools.
		All the while budgets have been cut over 25% in last 2 years
	9.  Businesses beating a hasty retreat to cheaper areas - just announced
		this morning that Apple will close Fremont plant and transfer the
		manufacturing to Colorado and the Orient.  Loss of 700 jobs.
	10.  Auto-insurance is unbelievable - if you can get it.
	11.  The state (or the western half anyway) may not be here in several
		years - earthquakes.
	12.  If you change your mind after you get here, getting out is becoming
		a problem.  So many people are leaving that moving companies and
		truck rentals have none to move people out with.
	13.  Cities like SF and LA have lost any charm or tourist value they once
		had to urban blight.

---
Suzanne Roat				Phone:	(510) 242-5313 Voice 
Chevron Research and Technology Company		(510) 242-4647 FAX
100 Chevron Way				Email:	roat@rrc.chevron.com
Richmond, CA  94802-0627
From: jeschke@wobbegong.cs.indiana.edu (Eric Jeschke)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: water treatment -- some first hand info
Keywords: water filter
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:44:48 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

In article <1992Sep4.181339.12107@gtephx.UUCP> meredithd@gtephx.UUCP (Douglas Meredith) writes:
| -- If this is truly giardia, it's not that bad.  Just mild cramping with occasional
|    more urgent... uh... calls of nature.
  If this is all you had, you were lucky.  I had the most severe
  diarrhea for about a week, plus intense bloating pain, cramps,
  gas, general fatigue, etc.   I think it must depend somewhat on
  the degree of infestation.

|-- 
|| Doug Meredith                                                    |
|| UUCP: {ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc}!gtephx!meredithd     |
|| Inet: gtephx!meredithd@asuvax.eas.asu.edu                        |
|| AG Communication Systems (Formerly GTE), Phoenix, AZ             |


-- 
Eric Jeschke                      |          Indiana University
jeschke@cs.indiana.edu            |     Computer Science Department
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: water storage for emergencies
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:59:00 GMT

In article <122440173@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein) writes:
>> You should probably change the water every 6 months or so to prevent
>> bacteria build up.
>
>Dubious.  I have many gallon jugs in my basement that are ten years old
>and look fine.  Nothing in them but tap water with a healthy dose of
>bleach added (more than eight drops!).  They were sterile when sealed so
>I suspect they are still safe.  Of course I don't intend to drink them
>except in a dire emergency.

There is a minor problem with that.  The bacteria *do* grow in such
water, and what's more, they react with the chlorine to produce
chloroform.  A few healthy swigs every now and then won't hurt you,
but if you are living off that water it can make you sick.  Civil
defense brochures recommend changing the water every year.


-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Mayor of Dogspit, IN  #My Opinions! NotIU's! #Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Located somewhere in  # Legalize Explosives! #nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # the Outback of the    #I've got my own fusion#family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over#plant. Just ask me.   #Space For Rent
From: geek@media.mit.edu (Chris Schmandt)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Date: 8 Sep 92 15:15:29 GMT
Organization: MIT Media Laboratory

In article <18ibk0INNdl1@agate.berkeley.edu> bwood@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Blake Philip Wood) writes:
>I expressed my surprise to a backcountry ranger that cattle grazing
>was allowed in a wilderness area.  She gave me the impression
>that this was a somewhat unique situation.  I suspect the grazing rights
>were grandfathered in when the Pecos Wilderness Area was established.
>Anyone know for sure?
>

I had a very similar experience in Great Basin National Park this
summer.  Various parts of the park fenced, cows in a number of areas
(didn't see any evidence above about 9500 feet).  The ranger I spoke
with said that he'd been upset about this his first year there and had
written a slew of letters, but then explained that grazing rights (as 
well as some mining rights) were retained as part of the "enabling
legistlation" that created the park.  As he explained it, the cattle
lobby is strong enough that the park could never have been created
without this concession.

While I don't like cows in a place like this, our conversation did make
me think more about issues of local support for parks and wilderness
areas.  In these areas folks are used to the cheap grazing rights
and drive-anywhere-you-can laxness of the national forests.  Although
living there does not give them rights to rape the land owned by all of
us, it does seem helpful to garner local support if possible.  That can
only mean tourist dollars.  In our case, most directly visible as money
spent on gas, food, and groceries in Baker, the nearby hamlet.

chris
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: carnes@ico.isc.com (Steve Carnes)
Subject: Re: Floating through a forest fire
Organization: Interactive Systems Corp., Boulder CO
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:51:22 GMT

>/\                Ilana Stern DoD#009  ilana@ncar.ucar.edu 
>  \_][ <--NCAR       Colorado...is totally rectangular.

How can that be, if it's on the surface of a sphere?

-- 
Steve Carnes       carnes@ico.isc.com        uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!carnes
   "Rock gives reality to the otherwise abstract notion of transhuman
    time." - Edward Abbey
From: tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: MSR filter (was: Water treatment article from Am J Pub)
Date: 10 Sep 92 00:55:58 GMT
Reply-To: tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker)
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

In article <18lkkfINN5p1@moe.ksu.ksu.edu> diverson@phys.ksu.edu (David Iverson) writes:
>So, isn't anyone else annoyed by the fact that the MSR squeaks like a
>tortured mouse (or is that only a part of the filter I used).  Also, how

No, never noticed it.

>about crunching your knuckles against the side of the filter when you pump. 

No, never noticed it.

>Finally, it seems that it's very easy to over-pump (cavitation, bubbles and
>all that sort of wasted effort).  

Only a problem if you really need to achieve some theoretical maximum 
efficiency.  Handle design, etc, is much more important.

	 George Tucker        tucker@tcville.hac.com
South Central LA - solidly Democratic - a few million.
Florida          - close race         - $7 billion.
Too many Quayludes.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: greg@mobius.viewlogic.com (Gregory Larkin)
Subject: Would like information about Adirondack Park
Originator: greg@mobius
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:29:28 GMT


Hi there,

My girlfriend and I are planning to do some hiking
and camping somewhere in the Adirondack park the last
week of September/first week of October.  We will
probably be in the Ausable Forks area.  Are there any
general rules about camping in the Park, i.e. can one
use undeveloped sites for camping or are there
developed sites around?

Also, is there any threat of bear encounters?  What
steps should one take (other than suspending food in
a tree) to ward them off?

Any other general information about the Park would be
much appreciated as well!

Thanks,
-- 
              Greg Larkin, Software Engineer, Waveform Analysis
                 Viewlogic Systems, Inc.  Marlboro, MA 01752
                            greg@Viewlogic.COM
From: jeschke@wobbegong.cs.indiana.edu (Eric Jeschke)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Water treatment article from Am J Pub Health (1989)
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:35:01 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

I've recently returned from 3 months of backpacking in the northern
Rockies.  I used my MSR Waterworks every day.  I am pretty much
disgusted with the filter at this point.  The biggest problem is
that the bottom filtering element (which does the important work)
is non-recoverable, and costs ~ $30 to replace.  Whether I did not
always have the screen aligned correctly or not I don't know (I
always checked, but maybe I didn't always get it right), but that
bottom element clogs up RAPIDLY and the filter becomes very hard to
pump and inefficient.  Like the previous posters have suggested,
the screen also clogs up constantly, and if you open the filter
often enough to fix it, you are bound to contaminate it sooner or
later.

That said, I don't have anything to recommend either.  We used Iodine
when we got tired of pumping 10 minutes for a liter of water, but
that my have failed us as well--both my girlfriend and I came down
with Giardiasis.  Fortunately it was near the end of our trip.

Incidentally, I was amazed by the number of people we met on the
trail who did not bother purifying their water at all.

-- 
Eric Jeschke                      |          Indiana University
jeschke@cs.indiana.edu            |     Computer Science Department
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: National Park Mortality Rates 
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 23:02:43 GMT
Distribution: usa

I've been trying to get mortality rates and how they are determined
for various activities at a local level (besides trying to find an old
Abbey film).  They'll go into Panel 16.  I talk specifically
to John Dill, head of Yosemite Search and Rescue later this fall (probably
October) when we talk about summit registers.  Check around Nov. 16.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: kbittner@.oracle.com (Kurt Bittner)
Subject: Re: Rogue tourists
Keywords: Humor
Organization: Oracle Corp., Redwood Shores CA
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:11:56 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <Sep15.151048.33826@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> johnc@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (John Cooley) writes:
>From "High Country News," September 7, 1992, Vol 24, No 16.
>Written by Mark Flower, Longmont, Colorado.
>
>National Park Service officials today confirmed reports of the shooting of
>two tourists in Yellowstone Park early this season.  The shootings were
>authorized under a newly implemented policy to protect bears.

... and to protect our constitutional right to arm bears ... ;-)

Kurt Bittner       ]"It is not Nature-as-Chaos which threatens us, but the 
kbittner@oracle.com] State's presumption that it has created order."-Gary Snyder
From: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: Re: Backpack recommendations and comments (e.g., Mountainsmith, Lowe)
Reply-To: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:58:44 GMT

In article <Bu8n5E.ABC@world.std.com>, ari@world.std.com (Ari I Halberstadt) writes:
>Need help deciding which back pack to get for under a week hikes.
>Packs I'm considering:
>
>Model                       Vol (cu in)  Weight      Price
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Mountainsmith Frost Fire II 5016         4lbs 14oz   $220
>Lowe Contour IV             5400         5lbs 11oz   $225-$240
>Mountainsmith Elite 4000    4894         5lbs 12oz   $305
>Mountainsmith Elite 5000    5800         6lbs  1oz   $330
>(Source: EMS pamphlet and prices from REI, L. L. Bean, and local stores.)
>
>Any strong feelings about any of these packs? Other packs to consider?
>Good/bad experiences with these packs?
>
>Additional long article (about 7K) containing more detailed requirements
>and comparisons of the above mentioned packs available on request (I didn't
>want to clog the net).
>-- 
>Ari Halberstadt  ari@world.std.com  #include <disclaimer.h>  #include <quote.h>

I can't really speak concerning the Lowe Contour, but I am familiar with the 
Mountainsmith series (considering I just carried a Elite 5000 about 2100 miles...)

They're all excellent packs, but (unless you like a lot of extras on your pack)
the Elites may be a bit of overkill for trips under a week. They are, however,
very comfortable packs, not to mention ridiculously easy to adjust to 
yourself. The Frostfire II (which my hiking partner carried) was also an excellent
pack, its only shortcoming (in comparison to the Elite, anyway) was that the
top pouch on the pack couldn't double as a lumbar pack.

Also, so that you know, Mountainsmith has been having problems with the Elite
series packs, at least with extended distance hikers. The two weight transfer
struts that run from the hit belt to just outside the internal frame have
had the tendency to poke thru, sometimes into the pack (one of my hiking
partners lost his thermarest.) I myself got about 1600 miles out of my pack
before the struts went.

Happy hiking....
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jhhardy@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (nobody you know)
Subject: land between the lakes
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 23:22:15 GMT



I'm thinking about taking my canoe down to land between the lakes next
weekend.  I've never been there before so i was wondering if ssomeone
might be kind enough to point me to some of the less crowded areass (if
there are any).

Alos my canoe and I are fairly new to the midwest (read "I got here two
weeks ago") so I would also appreciate any general information on good
places to go canoeing out here.  I'm willing to travel up to about 400
miles from bloomington indiana, or a bit farther if the canoeing is real
good.

Thanx

jjim hardy
jhhardy@ucs.indiana.edu
 

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: deaton@saturn.sdsu.edu (Ed Deaton)
Subject: Water in Nepal/What do I do?
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:47:32 GMT

 I spent 30 days in Nepal last March, including walking to Kallar Patar. 
I used boiled water a lot, purchased from the inns.  Most people on
the trail were using iodine tablets.  I was lucky and did not get sick
in town or on the trail.  I'll be back this March for another trip to
Kallar Patar and an attempt to climb Island Peak.

ed deaton
From: bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us (bob pasker)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Floating through a forest fire
Date: 11 Sep 92 10:28:17 PDT
Organization: Disorganized Organization

In article <1992Sep11.154601.21455@ncar.ucar.edu>, ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
> In article <1992Sep11.143523.5399@ico.isc.com>, carnes@ico.isc.com (Steve Carnes) writes:
> ] 	ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
> ] >felt that we were privileged to have seen the fires, and lucky to have been
> ] >untouched by them.
> ] 
> ] Interesting story, Ilana.  However, the question remains, did you see
> ] any burned cows?
> 
> We were sure hoping to!  I like my steaks kinda rare, but char-broiled
> is ok by me!  
> (No cows along the Salmon, at least none that we saw.  Not counting
> cow elk, of course.) 

how about burned llamas?

-- 
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us 
--
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: wheels in wilderness
Date: 7 Aug 92 10:16:38 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept


To answer the question about using a one wheeled device to "carry" a
pack into wilderness areas I did a bit of reading.

The Wilderness Act:

..., There shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vechicles,
motorized equpiment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other
form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation wihtin
such area.

CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Rev. July 1988

The following are prohibited in a National Forest Wilderness::

(a) Possessing or using a motor vechicle, motorboat or motorized
    equipment ...

(b) Possessing or using a hang glider or bicycle.

The following are prohibited in a National Forest Primitive Area::

(b) Possessing or using a motor or motorized equipment, except small
    battery powered hand held devices, such as cameras, shavers,
    flashlights, and Geiger-counters.


Now from the Forest Service Manual Rev. 4/86

Title 2320.5 Definitions

3. Mechanical Transport.  Any contrivance for moving people or
   material in or over land, water, or air, having moving parts, that
   provides a mechanical advantage to the user, and that is powered by
   a living or nonliving power source.  This includes, but is not
   limited to, sailboats, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game
   carriers, carts, and wagons.  It does not include wheelchairs when
   used as necessary medical applicances.


So overall I would bow out and say one wheeled devices are illegal.
And it seems that bikes have always been illegal.  But that is the
price we pay sometimes for wilderness.  Buy a goat and have it carry
your pack, they are much easier to transport, manage, and are easier
on the land than llamas, or horses. 


The final bit reading I did goes back cairns ;-).


From the CRFs pertaining to all National Forest Land (including wilderness).

The following are prohibited:

(a) Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind road, trail,
    structure, fence, enclosure, ... , or other improvement on
    National Forest system land without a special-use authorization,
    contract, or approved operating plan.


Well as I read it constructing/maintianing a cairn (which is part of a
trail) is illegal.  It does say anything about removing them ;-))).

Allen R. Sanderson
Salt Lake City, Oootah

Long standing stove debate and criticism stands on the MSR lines of stoves.
MSR stoves were designed for winter use in the Pacific Northwest to melt
snow of water.  Period.  The joke goes the MSR has two settings: off and high.
This is for melting snow or boiling water.  If you read the directions,
they recommend that if simmering is needed, use a can lid or similar flat
plate for indirect heating.  Sure, weighs more, but it's a survival stove.
Always use the right tool for the right purpose.  

From: pabo@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Eric Pabo)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:05:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Off to Alaska on Sunday!! (And eventualy to Denali...)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

There is a large REI store in downtown Anchorage that you might want to check 
out.

Last summer when I was in Alaska I found that the hotel/motel prices were 
very high, fortunately we stayed with friends for most of the three weeks.
We found that the Bed and Breakfasts were a good deal (~$50-55) versus hotels
(~$100) for the 3 of us.  There is a Bed and Breakfast central booking num-
ber in Anchorage but I don't know what it is.  You might check directory 
assistance or with the chamber of commerce.

Regards,

Eric F Pabo
pabo@hpsmpa.lvld.hp.com
303-679-3947
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: smithrs@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (SMITH  RANDALL SCOTT)
Subject: Re: No dogs in Natl Parks
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 23:50:54 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.120535.25789@walter.cray.com> hens@snipe.cray.com (Tom Stephens) writes:
>
>> The water topic brings up another question.  How do you stop a dog from 
>> drinking giardia infested water?  Have any of you dog owners that have 
>> brought a dog into the backcountry had the dog get giardia?
>> 
>No, and I can't believe it ever would.  I have seen my dog drink out of every body of water imagineable, and he has never gotten sick.  I suppose it is possible for a dog to get giardia, but I've never heard of it.  
>
>Tom Stephens
>Corporate Computing and Networks, Chippewa Falls, WI
>Cray Research Inc.  hens@cray.com

First off, it _is_ very possible for a dog to get giardia.  In fact, dogs are
easily one of giardia's best vectors.  Unlike humans, dogs do not get violently
upset stomaches, etc from the bug.  At best, they will have some mild (prehaps
unnoticeable, depending on how much of a trashhound they are) diarhea and\or
gas.  However, once infected they can easily _transmit_ the parasite just like
any other vector (including human): through their fecal material.  Also, as in
any other parasitic infection, giardia puts a strain on the host organism.  If
fido is infected and untreated, his or her life expectancy can be decreased
5-20%.

I'm not saying that the backcountry is not a place for your pet.  However, if
you really want to be kind to your dog, don't expose it to giardia-infested
water.  I'm sure that you wouldn't go out of your way to expose him or her to
heartworm, now, would you?

If you suspect that your dog has a giardia infection, prehaps a trip to the
local vet with a stool sample might be in order, although I'm not certain
if there is a sure-fire treatment for the parasite in your pet.

All in all, prehaps you should really consider what is truly humane:  leaving
your pet home, or getting him or her infected...

Randy Smith
the mad chemist
smithrs@ucsu.colorado.edu
A
D
D
A