HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.groupware
Subject: Telecommuters, Remote Workers
From: 9138827a@levels.unisa.edu.au
Date: 4 Nov 92 21:37:34 +1030
Organization: University of South Australia

This item has been cross-posted to alt.bbs.internet
=====================================================================

I am undertaking postgraduate study at the School of Library and
Information Management, University of South Australia, Adelaide, on
the particular information needs of telecommuters - those who perform
job-related work at a site away from an organisation and communicate
electronically rather than commuting physically.
 
I would be very interested in, and would greatly appreciate a response
from those who are telecommuters, to the following questions. If you
are not a telecommuter but know of others who are it would be
appreciated if you could pass this on to them:
 
 
Q1      Does the organisation to which you telecommute provide any
        library and information services which are accessible to you
        online? (eg catalogs, reference assistance, databases, literature
        searches, document delivery services, organisation information
        such as daily bulletins and administrative gazettes.)
 
        If yes:
 
        (a) What services are provided?
        (b) How useful are these services to you?
 
Q2      (a)     What is the nature of the organisation to which you
                telecommute?
 
        (b)     If you sometimes commute physically to your organisation,
                how frequently do you do this?
 
Q3      What are the particular information needs that you have as a
        telecommuter?
 
Q4      What basic information services do you consider should be
        provided by an organisation for its telecommuters? (see Q5 for
        additional and desirable services)
 
Q5      What additional information services would you perceive as being
        highly desirable for an organisation to provide for its
        telecommuters?
 
Q6      Are there any further comments you wish to make regarding the
        information needs of telecommuters?
 
Q7      Would you like a summary of the results of this survey E-mailed
        to you?
 
Respondents can be assured that individuals and organisations will not
be identified in any report or summary of this survey.
 
Please E-mail your response to my Internet address:
 
9138827a@ntx.city.unisa.edu.au
 
Thank you for your cooperation
 
Bronwen Strong   

Newsgroups: comp.os.os2,comp.os.os2.programmer
From: jens@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Jens Christensen)
Subject: qCOM software
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: comp
Date:  6 Nov 92 23:00:10 GMT

Does anyone have any experience with the qCOM software
package from Quadron?  We are thinking of buying it
for the multiport/2 card to connect to 8 modems.
Any experiences, or pointers to other software that
has similar functionality would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

Jens Christensen
From: shyguy@ocf.berkeley.edu (David S. Shy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: Pause in loading  OS/2
Keywords: os2, bug
Date: 13 Nov 92 21:42:52 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: maelstrom.berkeley.edu

Perhaps defragmentize the drive and also do a chkdsk /f?  (you'll
have to boot up from the installation disks* if you wish to do a 
chkdsk /f or from another boot disk or else, os/2 will just 
give you an error message....)


*press esc after os/2 is done reading the 2nd disk... and copy 
chkdsk.exe (or was it com...) to another drive and run it form there...

-- 
=============================================================================
| David Shy		   | 486D/33/12/120 | A proud OS/2 user who isn't   |
| shyguy@ocf.berkeley.edu  | 1.4/1.2/1/1304 | deprived by Micro$oft/WindoZe |
=============================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: plee@panix.com (John Lee)
Subject: Bugs with OS/2 workplace shell ( even after CSD )
Summary: bugs
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 05:22:36 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC
Keywords: bugs, os/2, csd

Hi,

	I am using OS/2 2.0 and I have installed service pack ( CSD ) 
located at hobbes.  I noticed that it changed the systems font to 
bold, which I didn't like.  So after fidgeting with the system tools, I 
changed the font to Helv 8, which is nice.  Except when I rebooted, the
old ugly dark system 8 font was back to haunt me.  Does anybody know
anyway to fix this?

	Also the folders seems to be messed up.  Some foldes would scroll to 
the end for no reason at all.  For example the system tools folders would be
always be scroll to the end no matter how I saved.  That problem existed
before the CSD, but I seem to have more of it after installing the CSD.

	The installation of CSD went pretty smoothly, but I was wondering is
it really neceassary to dedicate over 16 megabytes.  The only noticeable
fix was DOSkey in Dos windows, and now all deskpic screens work correctly
too.  Except that I haven't seem any major improvement.  Please enlighten
me.

John

-- 
--
John PH Lee				
plee@panix.com
From: bbm@po.CWRU.Edu (Brian B. Mathewson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Service Pack vs. GA Scroll Test Benchmarks
Date: 5 Nov 1992 05:54:42 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bbm@po.CWRU.Edu (Brian B. Mathewson)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


Before I installed the Service Pack with the 32-bit graphics drivers
I made some measurements of how long it took OS/2 to accomplish
certain tasks, mainly text scrolling tasks.

All before and after tests were done with the standard VGA drivers
with a Western Digital PVGA1C adapter on a 386SX-16 with 6 megs with
nothing else running or open in the system.

Here are the results.

SCROLLING TESTS:

DOS Window:       Same
DOS Full Screen:  Same
OS/2 Window:      2% faster
OS/2 Full Screen: 3% faster

Tests were done by executing the following commands:
  CLS
  TYPE OS2FAQ2D.TXT     (the OS/2 2.0 FAQ version 2.0d, 1188 lines,
                         61093 characters)

The TYPE command was done twice to leave the file in the disk cache.
All were done using several font sizes (10x6,10x8, and 18x8) or
number of lines/columns (80 by 25, 80 by 50, 40 by 12, etc.) and
the percentage improvements were averaged.

I used a stopwatch good to 0.01 sec and can time things accurately to 
about 0.05 seconds, for from +-1% to 0.02% error based on how long it
took to execute things.


OPENING FOLDERS:

Unfortunately I did not take enough data for the GA version to
compare it to the service pack.  How quickly folders open depends
on how much has happened since boot-up.  I did not notice it in the
GA version, but if you boot up OS/2 with nothing running, folders
will open much more quickly (up to 33% faster) than if you first
run a bunch of programs and open other folders, then close them all,
and open the folders again.

So, at first folders opened up quickly, but later I took the same 
measurements supposedly the same conditions and opening folders
took longer.  I did allow all disk activity to stop before timing things.


PROGRAM LOADING:

I did not take any hard data on loading DOS or OS/2 programs.  They
seemed to load in about the same time.  However, loading one particular 
Windows program, FISH3, took only 30 seconds compared to 48 seconds 
before.  Again, this was with nothing else running.


BOOT TIME:

This was exactly the same as before.


The mouse moved substantially faster than in the GA version.

The one DOS program I had which would consistently crash OS/2 in
a trap now works perfectly.

They still didn't mark "Page 1 of 2" for the Include page of the Settings
notebook for folders.  However, the OR condition now works nicely.

That's all I noticed so far about the differences in the service pack.


-- 

Brian Mathewson   bbm@r2d2.eeap.cwru.edu
                  bbm at Cleveland Freenet
From: harris@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Michael Harris)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Running Windows apps from DOS novell network under 2.0?
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:03:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncsu.1992Nov5.050331.29859
Organization: Computer and Technologies Theme Program, NCSU, Raleigh

Our university has a Novell network which has Windows applications stored
on servers.  The clients are running the DOS Novell requester and Windows 3.1.

One of the Graduate Coordinators has a copy of OS/2 2.0 and he is tired of
Windows crashing.  He wants to know if he can use OS/2 2.0 instead of Win 3.1.

What I need to know is if anyone has run the DOS Novell Client in a DOS VDM.
If so, can you run windows apps?  If so, can you run them seamlessly?
Can only that one session see the network?  Or is it possible to have more than
one VDM see the network?  (I really doubt this one.) Does he need to get the
OS/2 Novell Client?



Please reply via E-Mail.  Thanks.
______________________________________________________________________________
     Michael Harris - harris@catt.ncsu.edu or harris@carvm3.vnet.ibm.com
 System Administrator, Computer & Technologies Theme Program, NC State Univ.
(My opinions are my own and do not represent those of NCSU or IBM Corporation)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: stimpy@nmt.edu (John Reynolds)
Subject: Re: This is really weird...
Organization: New Mexico Tech
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:03:26 GMT

>I have had the same problem, I solved it by re-installing OS/2 GA and
>then installing the Service Pack (I assume the behaviour appeared
>after you installed the Service Pack).  The only problem now is that
>when I open a DOS window I lose sync on my monitor.  I have to press
>"Alt-Home" to make the window full-screen and then "Alt-home" to bring
>it back to a window session.  My screen looks all "screwed-up" at this
>point and requires a "refresh" from the desktop pop-up menu.  BTW, I
>have an ATI Wonder and I am using Joel's 800x600x256 V 1.0 driver.
>
>
>Has anybody come across this problem?

Yes, after installing the SPP, I was messing around with SVGA ON|OFF
and got that same behaviour. I ended up deleting the svgadata.pmi file
and everything went back to normal. Turns out I guess I didn't need it
because I'm running the stock IBM 8514/a drivers. I couldn't get
Joels to work..... :-(

-Jr
-- 
DOS...Boot sector virus!????           | #include <~os2/personal.opinion.h>
Windows...It's like a stale cookie.    | John Reynolds stimpy@jupiter.nmt.edu
OS/2..."It's like buudaah" (SNL quote) | New Mexico Tech. #10 and rising!!!

Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Timothy F. Sipples)
Subject: Re: ET4000 drivers of CSD without the rest ?
Reply-To: sip1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: Dept. of Econ., Univ. of Chicago
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 23:49:56 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.190636.1932@fzi.de> fzi.de writes:
>Can I install the ET4000 drivers of the CSD together with the 32-bit GRE,
>but without the whole rest of the CSD? I'm using the German version of OS/2
>and thus are not sure if I should apply the whole CSD to my version.

No.  Many parts of the Service Pak are interrelated.

Wait for the National Language version of the Service Pak -- it
shouldn't take too long.

-- 
Timothy F. Sipples      | Read the OS/2 FAQ List 2.0g, available from
sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu | 128.123.35.151, anonymous ftp, in /pub/os2/all/info
Dept. of Econ., Univ.   | /faq, or from LISTSERV@BLEKUL11.BITNET (send "HELP")
of Chicago, 60637       | [Read the List, THEN post to ONE OS/2 newsgroup.]
From: adhir@cygnus.umd.edu (Alok Dhir)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: aaaaa.exe - Credits
Keywords: magic cookie
Date: 7 Nov 92 09:23:54 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <BxAGLw.Hn4@ecf.toronto.edu> murraya@ecf.toronto.edu (MURRAY ALEXANDER W) writes:
>Has this been discussed here before?  I happened to execute "ls -la" in the
>\os2\bitmap directory (the -la being out of habit from heavy Unix usage),
>and two files, namely aaaaa.exe and aaaaa.met, showed as hidden system
>files.  Curious me, I chmod'ed them to be regular files and ran aaaaa.  Lo!
>Behold!  It displays the .met file to fill the desktop and rolls a humungous
>listing of names up in a window; I would imagine it's a list of developers
>for the OS.
>
>I've never heard this mentioned before;  just thought I'd point it out.
>
>Is this on everyone's installation?  I have GA + a beta 32bit GRE.
>
>Regards,
>Alex
><murraya@ecf.toronto.edu>


Click on an empty place on the desktop and press CTRL-ALT-SHIFT-O...
-- 
 ============================================================================
 Al Dhir                      			   Technical Consulting Staff
 Internet: adhir@cygnus.umd.edu	  	 University of Maryland, College Park
 Bitnet:   adhir%cygnus.umd.edu@Interbit      (301) 405-1500 * (301) 405-3014
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.misc
From: iam@stiatl.salestech.com (Ian Mercado)
Subject: Re: New TSENG 4000 drivers: non-interlaced/70Hz?
Organization: Sales Technologies, Inc.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:38:24 GMT

Martin J. Doyle <MBDMD@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> writes:
>If someone could point me in the right direction and possible send me more
>info on using VMODE to get 1024x768@70Hz non-interlaced I'd appreciate it.

Man...if ever there was a suitable FAQ topic...isn't this already in it?

<Sigh.>

DOS Full Screen...SVGA OFF...VMODE <whatever it takes to make flicker go bye  
bye>...SVGA ON...EXIT...SHUTDOWN...reboot...Ta-da!!!

Maybe Mr. Sipples should put this in his .SIG.

Ian

-- 
The system?  33MHz80486with64Kcache16MBof70ns |  Ian Mercado: iam@salestech.com
4x9SIMMS1MBTseng4000videoboard200MB15msIDE     --------------------------------
harddriveCOM1:COM2:LPT1:onstandardportsandinterrupts |   I am NOT a signature
"But it was too slow, so I re-wired it..."           | virus.  Copy me and die!
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: cummins@a.cs.okstate.edu (CUMMINS JOHN WILLI)
Subject: Problems, patches? GA w CSD
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Computer Science, Stillwater
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 16:51:03 GMT

I've reinstalled my GA, and installed the CSD over it.  Video is much better,
as I have a TSENG clone, but a bit slower.  However, stability is a problem
for me now.  I run my old dos network software in a windowed session to get
cutcp and netware going.  I could move the netware under OS2, but then I lose
TCP-IP (unless there's NCSA telnet for OS2!!!!).

Anyone know what if any patches still enhance OS2 after the CSD is installed?

I couldn't access ftp-os2 today, but looked on watson, and found
"addprt"
"commga"
"vbios"
and wondered if these would help with my (not infrequent... 2-3 times daily)
lockups.  The system was solid under GA with patches, before netware and shims
were put in the dos window...

(486-33, 8Meg, et4000, IDE, 100Mb free... swap file stays between 4 and 12 Mb)

jc
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: jps@netcom.com (John Serafin)
Subject: Re: Service Pack sucks! How can I get around these problems?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 04:34:36 GMT

sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Timothy F. Sipples) writes:

>>#2. New fonts stink! Is there any easy way for me to get back the old OS/2
>>   Window font and the old SYstem Proportional font?

>The new fonts are ISO compliant which, for better or worse, is the way
>of the world.  Why?  Well, you can now more quickly and easily
>distinguish the lowercase "l" from the number "1," for example.
>Various European countries mandate these new fonts for new systems.

They also help with O and 0, which many fonts do a terrible job with.
DEC VT100's are the worst, but almost all GUI fonts are almost as bad.
My favorite screen fonts are the IBM VGA/EGA/CGA.   They are very readable
on high resolution displays.   The small fonts on most UNIX boxes are only
one pixel thick and make my eyes water.   The fonts more than one pixel
thick are large and SLOW.   The worst thing about the new OS/2 fonts is
that they are also only one pixel thick.
If only I could use VGA/EGA/CGA fonts in a window...
(I guess that they aren't so good on l and 1, but I haven't had any trouble
telling them apart.)
>-- 
>Timothy F. Sipples      | The OS/2 FREQ. ASKED QUESTIONS LIST 2.0g is avail.
>sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu | from 128.123.35.151, anonymous ftp, in /pub/os2/all
>Dept. of Econ., Univ.   | /faq, or from LISTSERV@BLEKUL11.BITNET (send "HELP")
>of Chicago, 60637       | [Headline: "Bush Wins"?  (Shudder.)  VOTE CLINTON!]
-- 
John P. Serafin  |  Operating a bicycle is more like driving than riding.
jps@netcom.com   |  Operating an automobile is more like riding than driving.
From: kjb@calmasd.prime.com (Ken Brucker)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: Problems with OS/2 2.0 w/SP
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:39:30 GMT
Organization: Computervision, San Diego CA

In article <mortenk.69.721339314@dhhalden.no>, mortenk@dhhalden.no (MORTEN KNUDSEN) writes:
> 
> -Word for Windows 2.0 will ask me to insert a diskette with two files called
>  OLE-something (don't remember). It will do this every time, and copy them 
>  over the old ones. It will not list any fonts, other than the default, in 
>  the font-listbox, and no font sizes.

Make sure the directory these files are in appears in the path in Autoexec.bat.
That'll take care of the OLE files.  I don't know what would be causing the
other problems.

Ken
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**  Ken Brucker -- VMS/Ultrix Systems Programmer/Mangler -- Computervision
 **  kjb@calmasd.Prime.COM  
  **  Practice Random Kindness and Senseless Acts of Beauty
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Timothy F. Sipples)
Subject: Re: OS/2, 2 RLL drives, 1542B SCSI and 32M of RAM? (Will it ever work?)
Reply-To: sip1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: Dept. of Econ., Univ. of Chicago
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 17:01:49 GMT

In article <!z!vHkwvpa@atlantis.psu.edu> lbelan@fert1.fe.psu.edu (Lawrence Belan ][/40960) writes:
>Everyting seems to work with only 16 meg loaded,
>but as soon as I top it off to 32 Meg:
>1)   Windows 3.1 hangs after i open up two DOS apps, and
>     switch between them.
>2)   OS/2 gives those annoying trap 2 errors at address 160:FFF6459E
>     during window opening/closing or jumping from the Win-OS/2 fullscreen
>     back to the desktop.

I think you've got some sort of hardware problem, and my suspicion is
the motherboard -- perhaps the motherboard can't drive all that
memory.  I suggest asking the people in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware and
see if they have any suggestions, since, as you point out, the problem
does not appear to be specific to OS/2.

-- 
Timothy F. Sipples      | The OS/2 FREQ. ASKED QUESTIONS LIST 2.0g is avail.
sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu | from 128.123.35.151, anonymous ftp, in /pub/os2/all
Dept. of Econ., Univ.   | /faq, or from LISTSERV@BLEKUL11.BITNET (send "HELP")
of Chicago, 60637       | [You picked the right President, America -- Thanks.]
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: smbrush@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Andy Brush @Sverdrup)
Subject: Re: Reader/2 and.BOO files?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date:  5 Nov 1992 08:41 EST  

In article <1992Nov4.172651.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>, wlrobe01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes...
>In article <1992Nov04.164110.3724@dialogic.com>, gerry@pizzabox.dialogic.com (Gerry Lachac) writes:
>> 
>> On the PDK disk (I'm using a DOS machine to pull stuff off of it)
>> there are .BOO (book) files which you need to use Reader/2 to print
>> and view.  Where do I find Reader/2???
>> 
>I asked the same question recently, and everyone told me that it is a
>commercial program availiable from IBM.  I would like to know if there is
>a shareware/freeware reader anywhere....

There is a version of Library Reader/2 on the CD.  I'm not sure exactly 
where... the PM installation program created an icon in my "ISV Tools" 
folder, and that's at home.  

Andrew S. Brush             | SMBRUSH@LIMS01.lerc.nasa.gov
Sverdrup Technology         | 2001 Aerospace Parkway
NASA LeRC Group             | Brook Park, OH 44142
"Opinions are Mine, Only"   | (216) 826-6770
From: turabe@gradient.cis.upenn.edu (Toshiyuki Urabe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: What the name of the OS/2 (ver 2.1?)Beta
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:17:23 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Hi,

Today, I called 1-800-3-IBM-OS2 and asked about the OS/2 2.1 beta 
in CD-ROM but they said it is not available. Is there any special
name of that beat version of OS2 or OS2 Engine....?

Thanks.

-Toshi,



Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: lutz@solace.psych.rochester.edu (Dave Lutz)
Subject: Re: Reconfiguring to multiple partitions and HPFS
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 15:33:44 GMT

In <sal8.139.720939132@po.cwru.edu> sal8@po.cwru.edu (Steve Luzynski) writes:

>In article <1992Nov3.140559.913@calmasd.prime.com> kjb@calmasd.prime.com (Ken Brucker) writes:
>>I'd like to put OS/2 in it's own partition running HPFS.  How large should
>>this partition be?

>If you want to do that, I'd go for around 50 Mb. This leaves you with plenty 

  I'll second that.  For my system, with the whole base system and the CSD
installed except for CD-ROM support and Reversi, the system takes about 32MB.
That's not counting the swap file, which I've seen grow to 11MB (on my 8MB ram
system).

  50MB should give you enough room to add Windows 3.1 support when it comes
out, and may be enough to get you through the next full release of OS/2
(whenever that happens).  If things get tight, you can always move your swap
file to another partition.

  Of course, if you think you might install the multimedia package or TCP/IP
support, you'll need a bigger partition.  A rough guess would tell me to add
the amount of space they currently use, plus at least 10% more.  The current
CSD added about 10% to the size of OS/2, and future updates will probably do
the same or worse.

  The whole point of having OS/2 in it's own partition is so you don't have to
reformat your data partitions if you ever need to reformat to fix or upgrade
OS/2.  If you skimp on OS/2's partition, you'll probably end up reformating
anyway at some point.

  If you can't stand to see the wasted space on the disk, just leave it all one
big partition.

Dave Lutz
lutz@psych.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: greve@rs1.thch.uni-bonn.de (Thomas Greve)
Subject: Re: CSD-First Looks
Organization: University of Bonn, phys. Chemistry
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 18:19:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov1.000725.16514@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> parry@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Tom J Parry) writes:
>STACY JOHN BEHRENS (sjb5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu) wrote:
>Actually, if you have an ISA bus it is swapping. It uses the memory above
>16MB for swap space because it can't do DMA transfers to disk above 16MB.
>You'll notice your swapper.dat is at its minimum and the delays while
>swapping to memory are certainly much shorter than those to disk.
It depends. IDE drives are not served by DMA and thus can swap even
above 16MB. I have tested it and it works: when i have 16MB, 4os2
reports 5MB free after bootup. After installing 24MB, 4os2 reports
13MB free memory. This was after applying the gt16MB patch and
continued to work after the SP.
-- 
				- Thomas

   greve@rs1.thch.uni-bonn.de
   unt145@dbnrhrz1
From: gt8080a@prism.gatech.EDU (Henry 'Hank' Harlan Roark III)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Starting DOS windows maximized?
Date: 8 Nov 92 20:15:54 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Is there a way to start DOS windows maximized?  It really annoying
having to click the maximize button everytime I start a DOS window.

Thanks.


-- 
Henry "Hank" Harlan Roark III | UNIX--An OS for those that don't have to pay.
Georgia Tech                  | OS/2--An OS for those that do have to pay.
gt8080a@prism.gatech.edu      | DOS --An OS for those that don't care.
My views only, not GT's       | Windows--An OS, NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!