HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: crockett@TECHNET.NM.ORG
Subject: Case of Beer!
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 19:46:53 GMT
Organization: New Mexico Technet   Albuquerque, NM
Reply-To: crockett@TECHNET.NM.ORG

dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
>  
>  Incidentally, our own Dave Crockett did his first hop & pop this weekend.
>  Had the handle in his hand before he cleared the tail.  He could have
>  *thrown* it back into the airplane, instead of carrying it all the way
>  back down to the ground.  Needless to say -- "Case of Beer!"  ;-)

Some people in the plane called it a pop & hop.  I had only one thing
on my mind: arch and pull (oh well that's two things), so I pulled
right away.  After all I didn't want to make my jump master look bad
by bouncing.

from the FAQ:
>  
>  After completing their first jump, skydiving tradition allows each 
>  student to express their appreciation and admiration for their newfound 
>  skydiving friends for their assistance in successfully achieving this 
>  milestone in their life by purchasing (from a local establishment) and 
>  presenting to them a case of beer.  This case, customarily a fine 
>  imported beer, is ceremoniously iced down for consumption at the end of 
>  the day.  The cost generally runs $15-20.  


Uh oh - so far I haven't purchased my beer, I bet late beer is better
than no beer.  My first jump master prefers diet pepsi, so I'll bring
some of that too.  I guess I better do it now before I get a bad
reputation.  Especially since I am an oh so very experienced jumper
(7 whole jumps).  (they trust me in the restroom by my self, but
everything else I do is closely monitored =)). I still have to rely
on other people to pack my parachute, spot the jump, and generally
let me know when I am about to do something that I might regret - I
want everybody to be my friend.


Gawd this is great - free-fall here I come!!!

Dave Crockett
crockett@technet.nm.org
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: mark@virtech.uucp (Mark Smith)
Subject: Re: Jump Number Statistics
Reply-To: mark@vti.com
Organization: Virtual Technologies, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:50:52 GMT

In article <1145.2AD19889@ehsnet.fidonet.org> you write:
: 
: Looks like my message hit the bit bucket, I will repost it.
: 

You're on the list... I promise, this list came out before your
entry was received by me.  This is last Friday's list.  A new list
this Friday will include you.
-- 
      /_\   Virtual                  Mark Smith          USPA D-13761
    /-~_  \    Technologies          mark@vti.com
  /      ~-_\     Incorporated       703-430-9247,   FAX 703-450-4560
/_____________\      46030 Manekin Plaza, Suite 160, Dulles, VA 20166
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Subject: Re: Beer (Was: Re: Our daily philosophy question)
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 00:48:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.145948.22914@eng.ufl.edu>
  esj@viper.eng.ufl.edu (Eric S. Johnson) writes:
>I don't see the big deal here. At my home DZ the rule is you owe
>a CASE for things. A case of whatever (liquid prefered). The guy who
>pays off in a case of gatoraid during the day in the summer is cheered 
>and thanked as much, if not more, then the guy who brings the case of beer.

Yeah, we basically do the same thing, though I don't know that it's so
formally stated.  The chant is "case of beer", but in practice when people
buy a case, it's usually mixed beer and soft drinks.  "Case of something!"
just doesn't have the same ring to it.  I hadn't thought of a case of
gatoraide, but it's a good idea.  But the idea is to share a significant
event with yer buddies.  The non drinkers are rarely left out.

-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |        USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |            DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        |
Support the League for Programming Freedom  (info from league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
From: bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Robert Church)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Hey!
Date: 3 Oct 92 11:46:11 GMT
Organization: Ohio University School of Art. Athens

In article <1105.2ACD2490@ehsnet.fidonet.org> SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE) writes:
>Reply-to: Anthony.Maglietta@p0.f2.n273.z1.fidonet.org (Anthony Maglietta)
>Fido-To: all
>
>Hello all! I wanted to add some echos to my BBS and I came across this
>in the fidonet.na.  I am just about to get my "A".  I first jumped on a
>dare from a friend out in Phoenix,AZ and now I can't get enough.  My
>family thinks I'm crazy but they were crazy for having me (:
>You can catch me at morgantown airport on weekends and Wednesdays.

Sorry but I could never decipher Fido addresses. Morgantown where?
We have some 'new' jumpers at Ravenswood from Morgantown W.Va.


-- 
*********************************************
*    bob church                             *
*    bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu           *
*    D-8195 NFS #27                         *
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: yzarn@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com (Philip Yzarn de Louraille)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: High altitude bungee jump
Date: 4 Oct 92 22:27:28 GMT
Organization: Chevron Oil Field Research, La Habra, CA.

In article <1992Oct3.222637.5165@ichips.intel.com> mtimko@ichips.intel.com writes:
>In article <1992Oct3.121203.1@acad3.alaska.edu>, fsbgf@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
>|> With all this talk about skydiving and bungee jumping I started thinking...
>|> has anyone ever exited an airplane like a Casa or Caribou connected to the
>|> plane with a long rope/bungee and been towed behind the airplane then cut
>|> away from the cord to freefall?? It sounds like it could be fun if done
>|> right.
>
>Oh No!!!!!!!!! Not this topic again!  Maybe this thread won't last
>as long the second time...
>
>Calling all Physics buffs... Calling all Physics buffs..... :-)

I have been towed by a helicopter once and the tow line was about 100'. It
was great fun. I took lots of different body positions and watched the
effects as I was being towed horizontally at about 60-70 mph. Taking a
track position made the tow line dangerously close to the rear rotor so I
stopped that pretty quickly! ;-)

-- 
  Philip Yzarn de Louraille                 Internet: yzarn@chevron.com
  Research Support Division                 Unix & Open Systems
  Chevron Information & Technology Co.      Tel: (310) 694-9232
  P.O. Box 446, La Habra, CA 90633-0446     Fax: (310) 694-7709
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: ccjg@Hyaena.ru.ac.za (John Goetsch)
Subject: Re: Number of jumps
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:04:39 GMT

In <1992Oct1.230445.22235@pta.pyramid.com.au> bob@pta.pyramid.com.au (Robert Vernon) writes:

>In article <7164@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com> yzarn@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com (Philip Yzarn de Louraille) writes:
>>In article <15864@mindlink.bc.ca> Charlie_Gibbs@mindlink.bc.ca (Charlie Gibbs) writes:
>>>>                rounds              squares             aad
>>>>            #jumps   #mal      #jumps    #mal      saves    #mal
>>>>Mark          10       0          450      1         0       2
>>>>Pete           0       0         1300      0
>>>>Philip        50       1         1200      8
>>>>Pierre        45       0         1200      0
>>>>Vilhuber       0       0          115      0
>>>
>>> Gerhard        0       0           82      0
>>> H. Wain       36       0         1200      1
>>> Hector         0       0          260      0
>>> Jan            0       0          115      0
>>> Tim            0       0          175      0
>>>
>>> Charlie     1500       3          750      3
>>>

>   Bob V!        60       0         2000      2
    John	  26       0          131      0

I was starting to felt left out!
--
John Goetsch                              Internet:  ccjg@hyaena.ru.ac.za  
Computing Centre, Rhodes University       Fax:       (0461) 25049 
P.O. Box 94, Grahamstown, 6140, RSA       Telephone: (0461) 22023 ext 286
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Skydiving
Date: 3 Oct 92 00:54:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: ehsnet.1152.2AD198CD

Reply-to: Jerry.Self@p0.f64.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Jerry Self)
Fido-To: all

Anyone out there interested in starting a support for frustrated ex-skydivers
that want to be current?
Actually I'm just kidding about the support group, but if anyone out there
 wants to chat, and or exchange stories drop me a line.
Jerry

--- QuickBBS 2.75
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: Skydive Over Texas (512)346-5341 (1:382/64)
--  
SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13
internet: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG
-- Check Source BBS, (217) 244-6954, HST, V.32, V.42bis ---
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: king@glacier.Stanford.EDU (Robin King)
Subject: ParaGear Catalog Info.
Originator: king@glacier.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Center for Integrated Systems, Stanford University, California
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 01:15:59 GMT

	Had a request for the ParaGear address and thought I'd
	post it also.  ParaGear puts out a big catalog of everything
	from canopies and containers to "misc. strange hardware."
	(Note:  I have nothing to do with this company; am not
	a representative)

	PARA-GEAR EQUIPMENT CO. INC.
	3839 West Oakton Street
	Skokie, Illinois
	60076-3438  USA

	Order desk only:  (800) 323-0437 (outside Illinois, USA only)
	For customer service or delivery service: (708) 679-1256
	In Illinois:  (708) 679-5905
	Outside USA:  (708) 679-5906
	FAX: (708) 679-8644
	TELEX:  724438

	(do they have enough numbers?)
From: Charlie_Gibbs@mindlink.bc.ca (Charlie Gibbs)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Number of jumps
Date: 30 Sep 92 21:04:14 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

In article <BvE7ty.I6I@virtech.uucp> mark@virtech.uucp (Mark Smith)
writes:

>                rounds              squares             aad
>            #jumps   #mal      #jumps    #mal      saves    #mal
>Mark          10       0          450      1         0       2
>Pete           0       0         1300      0
>Philip        50       1         1200      8
>Pierre        45       0         1200      0
>Vilhuber       0       0          115      0

 Gerhard        0       0           82      0
 H. Wain       36       0         1200      1
 Hector         0       0          260      0
 Jan            0       0          115      0
 Tim            0       0          175      0

 Charlie     1500       3          750      3

...thanks in part to the Strato-Star from Hell.

     Is anybody collecting these statistics?

Charlie_Gibbs@mindlink.bc.ca
I'm looking for the stationery department but they keep moving it.

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: jmills@cass.ma02.bull.com (John Luke Mills)
Subject: Re: Number of jumps
Organization: Bull World Wide Information Systems Inc.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:29:53 GMT


>               rounds                                  squares
>       #jumps          #mal                    #jumps          #mal
>
	100		0			390		1

John Luke Mills
--
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Number of jumps
Date: 1 Oct 92 08:10:44 GMT
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM

In article <1992Sep30.230100.13823@isrc.sandia.gov>
  smlacke@isrc.sandia.gov (Scott M Lackey) writes:

>	I don't mean to put a damper on this, but how significant can this
>total be?  I mean, to be stastically valid, the data needs to be
>representative of the jumping population.  There's got to be a highly
>negative correlation between malfunctions and still being around to
>talk about it on the net.

Your point is well taken that there are a lot of ways for this data to be
contaminated, but I think your particular worry isn't too much of a
problem.  Just for round numbers, say that 1 reserve in 500 leads to a
fatality.  So that one fellow who had a reserve ride and should have
reported it to us and didn't is biasing our reserve ride rate downwards by
one part in 500.  (I'm too tired to think about whether this argument still
applies for multiple reserve rides, terminated by one fatal one.  My
intuition is that it still will.  Anyone?)  Anyway, this kind of bias is
utterly swamped by both the sampling error due to the limited numbers we
will have in our survey, and other uncontrolled systematics.  In other
words, it's negligible.  Now, this survey might be amusing for another
reason.  If we come up with a number greatly different than than reported
by the USPA, what are we measuring?  That computer-literate techno-weenies
are more likely to be anal retentive about their gear, or merely that
computer programmers should not be trusted with screwdrivers, much less
allowed to pack their own main?

Blue Skies, all.

-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |        USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |            DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        |
Support the League for Programming Freedom  (info from league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: You're dead -- unless you pull (was Re: Tiny Broadwick
Date: 2 Oct 92 00:51:01 GMT

Reply-to: Hans.Falkeman@p0.f126.n203.z2.fidonet.org (Hans Falkeman)
Fido-To: romulus!ra.oc.com!mandel%jum

 roc> :               rounds                                  squares
 roc> :       #jumps          #mal                    #jumps          #mal
 roc> :
 roc> : Philip        50              1                       1200            8

 roc>   Hector         0              0                 260             0

        Hans         1400             1                1260             0


    Blue Sky D-73

--- GEcho 1.00/beta
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: SITI (S)BBS Line 1, Gothenburg Sweden +46-31-254810 (2:203/126)
--  
SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13
internet: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG
-- Check Source BBS, (217) 244-6954, HST, V.32, V.42bis ---
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: jumpers whiplash?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 21:39:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.191800.3047@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com> rmfowler@landru.mtc.ti.com (Rex Fowler) writes:
>
>I just made my first tandem jump this past weekend and noticed
>some aches in my body for a couple of days afterwards.  Most
>notably was a slight "whiplash" feeling in my neck and back.
>My friend who also jumped felt the same. 
>
>I watched the video and didn't notice much of a jerk when the
>chute opened but that's the only explanation I could think of. 
>

The "bob church" explaination is: Your conscience is telling you
that you should have bought (more) beer!

Sorry Bob,  I hadda do it     :^)

-Eric


Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: psaarela@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi
Subject: Re: Number of jumps
Organization: Nokia Telecommunications.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 11:28:57 GMT

In article <1117.2ACD2504@ehsnet.fidonet.org>, SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE) writes:
> Reply-to: Paul.Stansberry@p0.f22.n233.z1.fidonet.org (Paul Stansberry)

> I'd be willing to bet, that you pack your chute pretty cleanly, and ALWAYS
> check all your lines thoroughly.  The guy who taught me (Hector Mandel) does
  --------------------

        Yes, in the matter of fact, I do check lines carefully before
        packing and when pro packing, always after laying the canopy on
        the floor. I've tried to be ALMOST as careful as when packing a
        reserve. Packing cleanly does not have to mean packing slow.
        Important is that you do your packing job carefully and your packing 
        method is similar enough to the method in the manual of your canopy. 
        Gunpowder has already been found.
        Don't try to invent more gunpowder. 
        Just use it.

        Pete

        psaarela@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: kjones@luke.eecs.wsu.edu (Kent Jones - EECS)
Subject: Re: Number of jumps
Organization: Washington State University!
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 18:36:07 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.230445.22235@pta.pyramid.com.au> bob@pta.pyramid.com.au (Robert Vernon) writes:
>In article <7164@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com> yzarn@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com (Philip Yzarn de Louraille) writes:
>>In article <15864@mindlink.bc.ca> Charlie_Gibbs@mindlink.bc.ca (Charlie Gibbs) writes:

Figured I'd add my $0.02 worth.  It should be noted my 4 jumps were all tandem
jumps. Thats what the (t) after the number means

                rounds              squares             aad
            #jumps   #mal      #jumps    #mal      saves    #mal
		 0      0      4(tndm)      0	    n/a      n/a

Kent

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: esj@viper.eng.ufl.edu (Eric S. Johnson)
Subject: Re: Beer (Was: Re: Our daily philosophy question)
Keywords: beer
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 14:59:48 GMT




I don't see the big deal here. At my home DZ the rule is you owe
a CASE for things. A case of whatever (liquid prefered). The guy who
pays off in a case of gatoraid during the day in the summer is cheered 
and thanked as much, if not more, then the guy who brings the case of beer.

Ej
From: bleck@aztec.ai.mit.edu (Olaf Bleck)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Rec.skydive Jump Number Statistics
Keywords: jump stat
Date: 5 Oct 92 01:26:37 GMT
Reply-To: bleck@ai.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
To: skydive-banter@athena.mit.edu


Well, what do you know about our hero!!!

                    ROUNDS              SQUARES             AAD
    HANDLE      #JUMPS   #MAL      #JUMPS    #MAL      SAVES    #MAL
    ------      ------   ----      ------    ----      -----    ----

    philip        50       1        1200       8
From: pvf@alantec.com (Paul Fries)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: malfunction stats
Date: 1 Oct 92 00:18:54 GMT
Distribution: na

OK, let's try this again...

I am interested in the actual malfunction rates as we experience
them.

Personally, I don't see a lot of round mains anymore, so I feel
that stats on them would not help the signal to noise ratio.
Anybody have any "religious" objections to this?

There seems to be a great deal of mixed feeling about
differentiating between "gear failure" vs "pilot error", so
let's make some simple rules, and report both.

Everybody knows how many malfunction he/she has had.  Please
report that number.

Let's define "avoidable" malfunctions as situations where you,
the jumper, CLEARY screwed-up;  where, aside from your mistake,
the malfunction wouldn't have happened.  This would include, but
not be limited to, things like twisted belly-bands or leg
straps.  I can't think of what else goes into this category, but
you get the idea.  If the malfunction was CLEARLY under your
control and avoidable, count it in this category.

If you don't know how to classify your malfunctions, no
problem.  Split the count however you are comfortable.  Maybe
you and your friend disagree about a particular malfunction
being avoidable.  It doesn't really matter, report it the way
you see it.

The bottom line is that we get three numbers:

    total square jumps, total square malfunctions, and avoidable
    square malfunctions.

I know that there may be some skewing of the data as a result of
the subjective nature of the input.  That is not important right
now.  If we find something really startling in the stats, we can
discuss that later.  For now, I just want to get some numbers to
talk about.

To make my life easier, please give me the information in the
following format:

<jumps><whitespace><malfunctions><whitespace><avoidable><whitespace><address>

where <jumps>, <malfunctions> and <avoidable> are numbers, and
<whitespace> is one or more <tab> or <space> characters.

For example, my input would be:

500 1 0 pvf@alantec.com

I ask for a specific format so that the data can be processed
automatically.  I will probably throw out anything that doesn't
fit, after all, it is not a very difficult format to follow.

Anyway, in a week or so, I will post the results.

			(as the Bartles and James folks used to say...)

			Thank you for your support,
			Paul Fries
			pvf@alantec.com
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: You're dead -- unless you pull (was Re: Tiny Broadwick
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:46:40 GMT
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM

In article <7120@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com>
  yzarn@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com (Philip Yzarn de Louraille) writes:
>		rounds					squares
>	#jumps		#mal			#jumps		#mal
>
>Philip	50		1			1200		8

Daniel  2               0                       119             0
-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |        USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |            DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        |
Support the League for Programming Freedom  (info from league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: hakana@isy.liu.se (Hakan Andersson)
Subject: Help, where to buy gear?
Reply-To: hakana@isy.liu.se
Organization: Linkoping University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 08:43:06 GMT

I'm interested in buying various gear such as altimeters,
frap hat, etc, but living over in Sweden doesn't exactly give
you access to US market.
Could someone be kind enough to e-mail me the FAX and/or 
phone numbers to some well known places selling skydiving
equipment. That way I could get in contact with them and
at least see what the prices are  -  I know it's considerably
cheaper :-) 
Then it's just a matter of being patient enough and not buy
anything until I get over there the next time.

Thanks,

Hokie Andersson
Linkoping, Sweden
From: ryoder@zds-ux.UUCP (Robert Yoder)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: front mounts, was Re: Accident in North Carolina
Date: 2 Oct 92 20:27:47 GMT
Organization: Zenith Data Systems

In article <20330016@hpgrla.gr.hp.com>, karenk@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Karen Klemm) writes:
> 
[text deleted]
> 
> The question I would ask about this gear is "WHAT is the main?" (not just how
> many square feet is the main?).  My first rig was a wonderhog with a 26 lopo
> reserve, with a 200 sq. ft. STRATOSTAR main.  The rig was purchased for 

The Strato-Star is 180 sq. ft.

[text deleted]

> The reason I mention this is that technology has done alot for skydiving
> in the last 10 years.  Even though a parachute is 200 sq. ft., it does not
> mean it will set you down softly if it is a STRATOSTAR (nicknamed "death star")!

Allow me to insert my cynicism here:

The Strato-Star was made of 1.5 oz. fabric.  That meant that it performed
exactly the same way on the 400th jump as it did on the 1st jump.  Canopies
made of 1.5 fabric routinely saw 1000+ jumps on them.  Generally, the only
reason to get rid of one was when someone came out with a new design.  What
"technology has done for skydiving" since then was to go to flimsier and
flimsier fabric until we arrived at F-111 which looses its' zero-porosity
characteristics so fast, that George Galloway once said:

"F-111 is shit, but its' what we have to work with, because that's what
the public wants."  (This was before Zero-P came out.)

When I started jumping, ram-airs were made of coated fabric, and I am
quite amused to see things come full circle and return to coated fabric.

One other note about the Strato-Star;  It was marketed during the time
when the mind-set was "one-size-fits-all".  Prior to its' introduction,
all squares were mostly 200-230 sq. ft., and the only decision a canopy 
buyer made was "which brand?", because there was no such thing as different
sizes.  When the Strato-Star came out EVERYBODY jumped it, 90 lb. girls
and 200 lb. guys.  The reputation for hard landings came from that portion
of the population weighing 160+ lbs.  The Strato-Star is fine for people
weighing less than 150 lbs.


Robert Yoder  r.yoder@zds.com

"The only worthwhile things in life are
 faster airplanes, younger women, and bigger crocodiles."
  Arthur Jones  (the creator of Nautilus)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving