From: sleibowitz@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Re: SRUN magicalness 
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:25:37 GMT

> I would like to say something in light of all the discussion about
> magical/astral stuff in shadowrun.
> 
> Ahem.
> 
> The shadowrun magic system is SILLY.

Oh dear... the Shadowrun magic system may be somewhat too powerful, but in my
opinion, it is wonderfully put together.  It's beautiful in the fact that it
is so completly _logical_.  Lots of people will disagree with me here, but it
seems to me that there is a logical solution to any gaming problem you might 
come up against.  But, I digress.  On to specific comments.

> I HATE the way mages can learn any kind of spell that you could
> possibly think of.

Then limit the type of spells available (sheesh).  And remember; there may be
a spell for every situation, but the odds of a character actually knowing the
spell?

> I HATE the way that magic can emulate basically any effect you 
> could get from cyberware, and do it better.

For as long as the spell is being sustained.  Or as long as you happen to
know how to quicken spells, or construct spell locks.

> I HATE the way most magic takes no time, gestures, 
> ingredients, preperations, or ANYTHING AT ALL that makes using 
> magic a hassle! (I know that there is ritual magic and summoning)

Sustained spells are active for only as long as the caster sustains them.
Permanent spells must be sustained for a certain time in order to work at all.
As for gestures, ingredients... doesn't sound to me like you own a copy of the
"Grimore".  Check out the rules for Geasa and Centering, and while you're at
it, the rules for magical items such as fetishes, focuses, locks, and whatever
else I may be forgetting.

Besides which, there is the tiny matter of Drain.  Which can kill you.

> I HATE the way that magic is totally documented in a scientific
> way so that a magic-user knows EXACTLY what a spell will do, and
> it's PRECISE effects. 

Of course: a spell will do what it was designed to.  Just like (for example)
Ars Magica, or AD&D, or every system containing magic that I know of.  How
well the spell works is entirely up to chance, the skill of the mage, and all
sorts of other factors.  Besides, unexpected effects usually arise out of a 
lack of thought on the part of the player ("I cast a fireball spell at the
corp-guard in front of the tank." "Okay, as he attempts to dive out of the way,
you notice a sign warning of flammable materials on the tank... BOOOOM.)

> Basically, mages in shadowrun are gods. They can do whatever they
> like, whenever they like, and better than anyone without magic.
> You let a plauer design a mage, just watch him assign particular
> priorities in the right place, and BANG! He has a mage that can
> do anything! You name it! Dial-A-Spell!

There is _always_ a price.  If your mage knows millions of spells, they won't
be very strong.  If they are, his skills will suck.  If they don't, a strong
breeze might blow him away.  With the SRun character generation system, you
can _never_ get something for nothing.
 
> Magic should be MYSTERIOUS! Not entirely defined. There should be
> some things about magic that you can NEVER know. 

And there are, chummer.  You just haven't figured that out yet... ;-)

> It also should be a hassle! You shouldn't be able to summon
> magical energies, form them into something uselful, channel/control
> them, all in the same time it takes to throw a punch or fire a gun!
> It should be DIFFICULT! Not so easy that anyone who wants to cast
> a spell automatically does it!
> There should be some sacrifice involved! Magic should take it's
> toll! Not simply be at the beck and call of anyone who wants to use
> it! 

Sacrifice?  Well, there's drain to begin with.  Then, there's karma
expenditures for focuses, locks, ally spirits, initiation, and all sorts of
stuff mundanes never have to worry about.  Then there's the possibility of
losing some of the Power through nasty damage, or cyberware.  Then, there's
the restrictions on shamans.  The bottom line is, spell casters don't just
get lots of new powers here; they get lots of new things to worry about as
well.

> It should be LIMITED! Magic should not be able to do EVERYTHING!
> It should not emulate the exact effects of science! It's MAGIC
> afterall! Magic is something not possible in a scientific view!

It is, it can't, it can't, we know, and you're right.  But there it is.
 
> I'm sorry, but I just had to say that. Of course, all is IMHO.

S'okay.  Feel better now?  :-)
 
> The problem is, I love shadowrun, but I hate the magic!
> Comments, anyone?

See above. 
 
> My Email address: thornt_g@kultarr.cs.uwa.edu.au

    					Your humble servant,
                                            Smiling Wolf

sleibowitz@hamp.hampshire.edu
damn everything but the circus.