HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Date: 2 Oct 92 09:13:45 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <BvG56o.A52@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton) writes:
>UC525655@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Mark Eaton) writes:
>  People seem
>  more supportive of the antiquated image of the Celt (and IndoEuropean)
>  being some enormous sword-wielding barbarian living out of his war
>  chariot as he conquers his way across Europe.

  Yup, definately. The reasons for this lies, I think, in the fact that both
those Pro-European and those Anti-European would like it to be true.

    The Pro-Europeans like the thought of their ancestors as "conquering 
  giants".

    The Anti-Europeans like it as it is an 'example' of the 'fact' that 
  Europeans are, have been and always will be a gang of bloodthirsty nasties.

>>Renfrew seems to think that IE culture was not, for the most part, carried
>>by nomadic invaders, but was spread from community to community, accompanying
>>the superior tech (equestrianery, wheel, bronze working)... and IE languages
>>of course.

    The Pro-Europeans dislike this, because it hints that their ancestors were
  common farmers.

    The Anti-Europeans dislike this, because it hints that somebody, somewhere
  who had a choise, choose European culture voluntarily. 
  
:) ?

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
		"Revive the Swedish-Madagascan Brigand Pact!"
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: djclute@cwis.unomaha.edu (Daniel Jonathan Clute)
Subject: What does BC really mean?
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:25:10 GMT

6 Oct 1992 18:12:47 GMT
djclute@cwis.unomaha.edu

	I've always been told that BC simply means "Before Christ," and 
Webster's dictionary also mentions this. I'm wondering, however, if BC is
actually of Latin origin, like AD, and that its latin derivation has been 
corrupted over time. (I was once taught, for example, that AD meant "After
death" instead of "Anno Domini.") If BC is of Latin or Greek origin, what
does it signify?

					Just wondering,
					Dan Clute
					UNO

Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson?
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:49:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad3.1992Oct5.104905.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <1992Oct5.175757.5652@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq) writes:
> Now, I don't mean to start a flame war, but is it true that while
> the Independence movement was going on, and Thomas Jefferson
> wrote "All men are created equal....", that he had slaves and 
> concubines, and plagiarized some of the writings of John Locke?
> 
> I was told this from a friend, but never read about it in US
> history in High school, so just thought someone out there
> may shed some light on the issue.

It's well known that Jefferson had slaves, something I learned in
elementary school.  While I think it's a legitimate topic for
soc.history, it also was discussed recently (about a month ago?).

I also suspect that starting a flame war is exactly your intention.
                    === Al Sparks
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Invention of the Novel
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:24:07 GMT
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated

In article <1992Sep29.015154.1476@newshost.anu.edu.au> (David Bofinger) writes:
>It's been claimed here recently that the novel was invented
>in, variously, the west or India. I've always seen the credit
>go to the Japanese lady who wrote _The Tale of Genji_. Is this

Murasaki no Shikibu, who wrote the "Genji monogatari".

>a matter of definition of what a novel is?

I would recall it was the Byzantines who wrote the first novel, "Barlaam and
Josaphat", though, I don't remember the name of the author. It is dated to
the 7th century.

I would class Mahabharata and such into class "epos", not into "novel". They
are in the same series as Iliad & Odyssey, Kalevala, Nibelungenlied, Edda etc.
  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: mece21x@jane.uh.edu (Yesudas, Michael)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture/ British Misuse Of Sati.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:50:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.055120.1578@ecst.csuchico.edu>, vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu) writes...
>In article <Bv9MHt.AIM@ucunix.san.uc.edu> ghayalm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:

(Deleted)

> 
>The British in reality were not even saviours of the Indian widows.  There 
>are many examples of the British soldiers having raped widows after having
>so-calledly rescuing them from the funeral pyres of their dead husbands.

Interesting! Can you quote one solid case??


> 
>Democracy and capitalism are not necessarily the best systems to have been
>implemented in this world.  It is the implementation of the system that is

Then what is?? Theocracy? Communism? Monarchy? Oligarchy? Dictatorship?

>important, and not the type of system. Even a most well meaning democratic
>system can be misused, particulalrly in countries where the people are not
>keen to participate in the electoral process,  or do not have any interest
>whatsoever in the leaders and the policies that they decide that guide the
>the country.
> 
> 
>Regards,
>Vivek.
> 
>-- 
>vivek@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu),
>Systems Engineering Laboratory, Department Of Computer Science, 
>School Of Engineering, Computer Science And Technology,
>California State University, Chico, California.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Michael Yesudas         |  The control of the means of production   |
|  Mechanical Engineering  |  of wealth is the absolute control of     |
|  University of Houston   |  human life itself                        |
|  mece21x@jetson.uh.edu   |                    --   Hilaire Belloc    |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hlin@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (hua.t.lin)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:20:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsi.1992Oct6.152054.18015
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

>In article <1992Oct1.224600.17393@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>>where; when mankind discovered iron, it immediately began to forge swords. If
>>the Chinese had discovered tthe nuclear fission, they surely would have immed-
>>iately began to build atomic bombs. No need for Western depravity for this.

OK. The Chinese invented gun-powder, but did not use them in war.

>>Might makes right, man ! Haven't you learned it yet ? I would suggest for
>>reading Sun Tzu, Macchiavelli, Clausewitz or other classics.

I would strongly suggested to those interested to read Samuel Griffith's
translation and commentary of "The Art of War" by Sun Tze. He made references
to Clausewitz in comparison to Sun Tze. I believe his words was Clausewitz
does not have the moderation of Sun Tze. He blames the extremes of
WWI to the influence of Clausewitz.

>>If, say, the Chinese had first reached the state
>>of technology and civilization the Europeans were from 1600 onwards, they
>>certainly would have behaved just like the Westerners did.

"China is a sleeping giant" - Napoleon.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture/ British Misuse Of Sati.
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:35:17 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.221840.5743@zip.eecs.umich.edu> bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>>
>>By British soldiers or mustered native Indian soldiers in British uniform ?
>>I could well see a Muslim Indian to violate a Hindu woman, remembering the

>What are you talking about ? "Bengali" is the name of a people and a language
>and "Bengal" is the name of a geographical region. 
>There was however a prolonged warfare between Vijaynagar and the neighbouring
>kingdom of Bahamani, also in southern India. It is true that the ruling family
>of Vijaynagar was Hindu while that of Bahamani was Muslim, but that didn't
>have much to do with the war. The cause of this war was more economic and 
>territorial , as the cause of most wars usually is.

Oops, sorry about the mixup. I just messed up Bengal and Bahamani.
Still I could imagine a Muslim violating a Hindu woman, since (no, I am not
going to be politically correct) I have the image of Islam being more in-
tolerant against the infidels than Hinduism, and for a simple, uneducated
Muslim private all Hindus would have been just heathens to be squashed out.
And I do by no means deny an English "gentleman" would not have employed the
situation of the poor woman. People just are all as devious everywhere.

Good point. Re-reading and checking one's articles before sending does help 
a lot.

>-Sayan Bhattacharyya.


  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:02:39

In article <1992Sep29.232237.7816@ncar.ucar.edu> chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe) writes:

   In article <JMC.92Sep27173436@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:

   >	7. Of course, the West has contributed its share of bad ideas
   >and regrettable cultural phenomena.  These include Marxism, various
   >forms of racism, Fascism, the balance of nature, Heavy Metal and
				   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   >multiculturalism.

   Hmmm. Stipulating that such balance is subject to frequent local - and 
   occasional widespread - perturbations, would you care to defend your inclusion
   of this in such a list?
   o				Chuck Smythe

The idea that I grumble about is that nature is in a state of delicate
balance perturbed only by thoughtless humans.  The reverse it more
nearly accurate; nature lurches about, and if we want to keep ourselves
comfortable, we have to get control of it.  This requires more and
more understanding of it.

Do not ride this bicycle no hands.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: ngopalas@ha24.eng.ua.edu (Nath S. Gopalaswamy)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Date: 1 Oct 92 05:59:02 GMT
Organization: The University of Alabama

In article <19789@ector.cs.purdue.edu>, cutchin@cs.purdue.EDU (Steve Cutchin) writes:
|> In article <12570@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
|> 
|>    In article <19764@ector.cs.purdue.edu>, cutchin@cs.purdue.edu (Steve Cutchin) writes:
|>    people were killed in that massacre.  Yet it stands out as one of 
|>    the great atrocities.  Why am I skeptical of "millions of Indians?"
|> 
|>    Could someone provide some more data?
|> 
|>    If one includes British warfare as slaughter (which I do) then the
|>    number is easily in the millions.  Note I don't say tens of millions,
|>    or higher because your right I don't have the exact number.  However
|>    according to several indian friends of mine (who I believe know of what
|>    they speak) the total number of indians killed by the British is
|>    easily 1,000,000+.  If you do not include war in the use of the term

The British forced Indians to cultivate indigo and cotton which could be used
to make yarn and fabric by the factories back in England. The finished products
were sold to Indians, indigenous factories were not permitted. As a direct
result of this unimaginable atrocity, there was a famine in Bengal province
which resulted in the death of more than 3 million Indians. There were at
least five such famines during the glorious British rule. Once you reach the 
million mark it ceases to have any more significance except for arithmetic
purposes.


|> Steve Cutchin
|> cutchin@cs.purdue.edu

Nath.
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
From: mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston)
Subject: Re: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:40:37 GMT

	I believe that the precursors to the Celts are referred to as
Iberians, who had darker skin. There are also a lot of tombs and stone
markings that predate the Celts. It is also probable that the Iberians
were not the first people to live in Ireland either.
	I appologise for not being as precise as I should be, I'll write
again once I have the information at hand.
-- 
Conrad Leviston	 | Got to find a brightness in the soul,
mongoose@yoyo.	 | Not look outside to find out where we are,
cc.monash.edu.au | Otherwise you won't be satisfied, 
Save the gherkin | 'Til you've made possession of the stars. (K.Wallinger)
Xref: sparky soc.history:8756 soc.culture.indian:32876
From: d89-jsp@nada.kth.se (Jan Sparrendahl)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 16:44:02 GMT

In article <28SEP199209501550@jane.uh.edu>, mece21x@jane.uh.edu (Yesudas, Michael) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep28.055120.1578@ecst.csuchico.edu>, vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu) writes...
|> >In article <Bv9MHt.AIM@ucunix.san.uc.edu> ghayalm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
|> >The British in reality were not even saviours of the Indian widows.  There 
|> >are many examples of the British soldiers having raped widows after having
|> >so-calledly rescuing them from the funeral pyres of their dead husbands.

	The difference, of course, being that the widowmurder
	was an effect of a crual tradition and law in India 
	and the	aleged rape being a criminal offence comitted
	by a perverted indevidual.
	One could ponder wether the present problem with bride-
	prises is related in any way?

|> >Democracy and capitalism are not necessarily the best systems to have been
|> >implemented in this world.  It is the implementation of the system that is
	
	It is sad to see that many people who advocates national
	pride in nations that has been under inforced rule by
	a western nation tend to attack ideas correctly or incorrectly
	associated with the western form of government like
	democracy. A brief look at the problems in Africa would
	show clearly the problems this attitude cases.

	In my country we have an ideom for that. That is:
	To throw out the cild with its bathing water.

	Exaggerating strong anti western attitudes is a 
	favourite escuse for tyrants.

|> >vivek@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu),
|> >Systems Engineering Laboratory, Department Of Computer Science, 
|> >School Of Engineering, Computer Science And Technology,
|> >California State University, Chico, California.
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> |  Michael Yesudas         |  The control of the means of production   |
|> |  Mechanical Engineering  |  of wealth is the absolute control of     |
|> |  University of Houston   |  human life itself                        |
|> |  mece21x@jetson.uh.edu   |                    --   Hilaire Belloc    |
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.history:8605 soc.culture.indian:32343
From: kavuri@lips2.ecn.purdue.edu (Surya N Kavuri )
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture/ British Misuse Of Sati.
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:00:55 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Sep28.072955.15212@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au>, Christopher.Vance@adfa.oz.au (Christopher JS Vance) writes:
> In article <1992Sep28.055120.1578@ecst.csuchico.edu> vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu) writes:
> | The British in reality were not even saviours of the Indian widows.  There 
> | are many examples of the British soldiers having raped widows after having
> | so-calledly rescuing them from the funeral pyres of their dead husbands.
> 
> Does that mean that they *weren't* rescued from the funeral pyres?
> One man's barbarism does not excuse another's.  I guess the question
> is whether the widows preferred to be alive after having been raped,
> or dead before.  People don't seem to be very nice anywhere.
> 
> -- Christopher

    What do you mean by *rescued* ?

    May be you prefer to being raped than dead, but don't generalize.
                           
    Not all people are masochistic.  They may prefer being alive and not
    raped.


FIAT LUX
Xref: sparky soc.history:8717 soc.culture.celtic:6373 sci.archaeology:2534
From: newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: ice age British Isles (was Re: pre-Kelt Great Britain)
Date: 1 Oct 92 07:28:56 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:

>This is slightly off the subject of pre Keltic Ireland, but I was
>wondering if the Ireland and the other British Isles (if the nomanclature
>is incorrect here, excuse me) were islands during the last ice age
>or were they connected to the Eurpoean mainland?

Britain was connected via a land bridge to Europe (modern France I think)
until only some 6000 or 8000 years ago (I forget which it was).

Likewise, Britain and Ireland were connected until a similar date.

In one of the stories of the Mabinogion, the land bridge between Ireland
and Britain is mentioned (I think in the "Branwen" branch).

But don't underestimate the ease to travel afforded by sea transportation
even in ancient history.  This helped to unify culture and language a
great deal.  The Celtic peoples were renowned for their sea-going abilities.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From:  (relgov)
Subject: Guantonamo Bay
Organization: Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 18:10:27 GMT
Followup-To: soc.history

I have been waiting in interest for an answer to the question posed
recently regarding our involvement in Guantonamo Bay, Cuba.  This has also
puzzled me over the years. The media never mentions the history of it.  Why
do we have a base in Cuba considering our relations?  How long have we been
there?  Why are we allowed there?
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: hlin@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (hua.t.lin)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:55:37 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.174319.10814@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> hlin@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (hua.t.lin) writes:
>
>First of all, Mongols could not have killed 120m Chinese, there just wasn't
>that many people then. Imperial census at that time puts the population
>at less than 60,000.
>- HTL

Sorry, I meant to say 60,000,000.
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.sri-lanka,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.iranian
From: jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:05:56 GMT

In article <12570@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <19764@ector.cs.purdue.edu>, cutchin@cs.purdue.edu (Steve Cutchin) writes:
>#     While it is probably accurate to say that many new and beneficial
>#     culture concepts were introduced by the conquering of India by
>#     the British this in NO WAY mitigates that it was the western cultures
>#     view of Indians as inferior, backward and heretical that allowed them
>#     to justify in their minds the slaughter of millions of indians in
>#     their conquest of India.  Mr McCarthy's EXTREMELY selective view of
>
>MILLIONS of Indians?  Even over the two centuries of British colonialism,
>that comes to at least 5000 Indians a year.  There was a rather
>famous massacre of unarmed and peaceful Indians around 1919 or 1920 
>that played a major part in the loss of British confidence, and the
>strengthening of the Indian nationalist movement.  Several hundred 
>people were killed in that massacre.  Yet it stands out as one of 
>the great atrocities.  Why am I skeptical of "millions of Indians?"
>
>Could someone provide some more data?

	All  it really takes to  kill a few million colonials is  
mind-bogglingly  stupid  imposed agricultural policy. Ireland's
potato famine comes to  mind as  an obvious example of the  
English managing to starve multitudes in the midst of plenty,
and I have  dim memories of something similar in 1940s India.

						James Nicoll
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: jbf@wts.com (Jens B. Fiederer)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Keywords: ????
Organization: Wegmans Transaction Services
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:44:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.223810.28133@massey.ac.nz> K.Spagnolo@massey.ac.nz (Ken Spagnolo) writes:
>
>
>1/7th of revenue from British India was through the sale of opium.
>What does that make them? The sale of opium was state sponsored
>too.
.......
>-- 
>Ken Spagnolo - Ph: +64-6-350-5160
>Systems Programmer, Network Support, Usenet Admin, etc.

To be fair to the Brits, they were only getting their own back -- after
trade with Chinese had the country hooked on tea, which was ruining their
balance of trade - and the Chinese had very repressive trade practices.

Just because many (myself included) are hooked on caffeine does not keep
it from being a drug.

Jens
Newsgroups: soc.history,sci.econ