From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Re: liberal men are a hot item?
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 17:31:58 GMT

schultz@unixg.ubc.ca (Stewart Schultz) writes:
>mec6@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
 
>>Just some obvious notes.  First, it's not really clear that
>>the women who prefer "masculinity" are the same that prefer
>>"liberal" men.
>
>I think you're reaching here...would you also say that the men who 
>prefer 'beauty' are not necessarily the same as those who prefer 
>'conservative' women?

Sure, why not?  It's maybe slightly less likely, though, since the
conservative ideal of women seems to be keen on beauty, whereas in
my example, the liberal ideal of men does not seem to be keen on
masculinity.

>It's clear that political affiliation is low on the list of desiderata 
>for both sexes, when choosing an intimate partner.  

Maybe because we know that there are millions and millions of people
who share our political party -- it's not a very useful disciminator.
It's still true, however, that cross-party marriages are fairly rare.
(There are a couple in my family, however.)

>>Second, it could be that there are a large number
>>of women who want "successful" men who *also* hold egalitarian
>>sex-role ideals.  I don't think there is a big contradiction there.
> 
>But a 'successful' man with not-so-egalitarian ideals will win out most 
>of the time over an 'unsuccessful' man with egalitarian ideals.  

Could be.  Maybe so.  I don't dispute that.

>In fact, your statistics also imply that 'conservative women are a hot 
>item,' but I don't see you pushing that idea here.  

Oh, sorry.  Equal time and all that.  Okay:  conservative women are
a hot item!!!  There are lot's of men out there that want conservative
women!!  If you want to cook, clean, and do the dishes, you've got a
good chance of getting married!!!

>Why aren't you 
>saying that there's a 'large number of men who want "beautiful" women 
>who *also* hold conservative political ideals'?  

Okay:  "There's a large number of men who want 'beautiful' women who
*also* hold conservative political ideals."  (There's probably an 
infinite number of other statements that I agree with that I'm not 
making either.... Sorry.. time is short, and all that.)

>Wouldn't that be a de 
>facto trivialization of the beauty myth?  Isn't the symmetrical claim a 
>subtle brushoff of the success myth?

I don't understand what you are saying here.

>>Anyway, I don't think anybody's stastistics have really contradicted
>>anybody else's.   I'm think we're both right, myself.
>
>Well, all you've shown is that there's a mean difference between the 
>sexes on general questions of division of labor; how and at what point 
>these differences come into play in an intimate relationship is still an 
>open question IMO.  I'm saying that they usually don't become an 
>important issue until fairly well into a relationship, often after
>several years.  That's where the numbers conflict.

Yep.  Open question.  Big, open, interesting,... question.

>It's an interesting question, but I think it would be news to most 
>liberal men :-).

Maybe.  From my own experience (that is, this is not scientifically
valid data here) the vast majority of "liberal" men I know are 
either married or seriously involved.  I have a handful of male 
friends who are traditionalists, and they are all still looking.
(While my female friends and I say, "David's nice and all, but I 
just couldn't deal with having a relationship with somebody who 
thinks that way about sex roles!!")  Keep in mind that the people
I know are a relatively homogenous group of overly-educated, 
financially stable people, so we can posit that effects of income 
and education (male "success") are controlled.

It's my own observation that "studs" tend to get a lot of dates, 
especially in high school, but the mild-mannered  "sensitive men"
prevail later on and in the marriage market.  (This is, of course,
a function of education and income too, no doubt.)

rini

Newsgroups: alt.feminism