From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: The anti-choice-for-men, Muffy (Was Re: Winning by Violation)
Date: 10 Sep 92 11:07:01
Organization: savage hackers
	<715568079@lear.cs.duke.edu> <0ntn3lc.sheaffer@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: death.corp.sun.com
In-reply-to: sheaffer@netcom.com's message of Thu, 10 Sep 92 13:55:44 GMT


In article <0ntn3lc.sheaffer@netcom.com> sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
> In article <715568079@lear.cs.duke.edu> gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel) writes:
> >When anti-abortion people tell women "if you don't want to deal
> >with unwanted pregnancy then don't fuck or get sterilized" then every
> >feminist shouts that they try to control women's sexuality (I agree 
> >with feminism on that one BTW).
> >
> >When Muffy tells men "if you don't want to deal with unwanted
> >pregnancy then don't fuck or get sterilized" y'all don't see anything
> >wrong in controlling men's sexuality.

  Wrong... you keep repeating the same thing -- that she's against men
choosing, that she's for women's rights but not men's, etc.  Wrong,
wrong, wrong.  She has said, time and time again, that *both* sexes
(that's men and women, for the reading impaired) should be concerned
with the "fucking and sterilized" issue.  She was talking about men
specifically in the quote because that's what the subject was, but if
you read on, either in that post or in others, she always has advocated
an equal responsibility and realization of the potential outcomes of
sex.  Why should the woman *or* the man be saddled with total
responsibility of something that they *both* did?  And how is telling
someone that if they fuck someone might get pregnant, and unless you
want to be totally safe to get sterilized controlling someone?  It's
more like informing them of the real world to me.  She's not saying
"never have sex unless you're sterile", she's saying "if you do have
sex, you'd better be aware of what the hell you're doing, and what the
consequences are."

> > Everybody (especially
> >feminists and traditionlists) "knows" that men's sexuality is a bad
> >thing that should be controlled.  When Muffy supports these opinions
> >she just fights for equal rights - feminists' style.

  This would be laughable if you weren't so serious -- it's amazing how
you keep misunderstanding what people say... feminism (according to
muffy, and I happen to agree) is trying not just to get *equal*
treatment for both sexes, but *good* treatment as well.  It just so
happens that men get treated much better in our world than women, and
some major work needs to be done to fix things.  I don't want men to be
mistreated like women, I want both to be treated well (this entails a
fair bit of work to be done on men's issues too, yes, but I'm not going
into that now -- not only is this alt.feminism, but for now I'm going to
concentrate on what I perceive to be a much more serious problem.)

> Now we see WHY "soc.feminism" has been such a tightly-controlled, Politically
> Correct little universe. It enables the moderators to promote
> blatant hypocrisy without ever being forced to answer for it.

  How so?  I suppose you can read anything you want into someone's
words, but it doesn't make it so.  There's at least as much negative
material on about feminism on soc.feminism than positive.  Why is that
hypocrisy?

> Now that we have "alt.feminism", I think that our newly-found Freedom of
> Speech is going to quickly send these prissy little hypocrites running for
> cover. 

  *laugh*  Like you've sent muffy running for cover?  Newly found freedom
of speech?  Just how many articles did you have rejected from
soc.feminism for speaking against the feminist fold?

> I wonder how long it will be before we see the word going out to all 
> those of Correct views, "Oh, don't *ever* participate in that horrible
> "alt.feminism."! Don't even read it! It's been taken over by sexists and
> racists and....."

 ... and people who keep attacking feminism as an invalid (or merely
stupid) way of looking at the problems in our society.

 -- d