Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 03:11:40 EDT
From: <PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Mistakes on the Macedonian Issue (5)


I know that repetition "kills" a joke but then again I may be wrong...
"Mike vanier" <mike.vanier@canrem.com> insists on repeating a story wi-
thout even once covering the points he/she is asked or objected...
For example in net-news message 21 Jul 92 07:37:38 EST he/she goes on:


> It is wrong to refer to the Ancient Macedonians  as Greek Macedonians
> since no such identity existed.The Hellenes and Macedonians were qui-
te distinct.    ::::::::

Author??? How distinct?  Say as a set and subset?  Just for the heck of
it let me direct you in checking Herodotus (I-56 VIII-48), Hesiod(F.3),
Thucydides(2-99.3), Diodorus(7.15), Syncellus(I-373 & 498-499), Proclus
"Chrestomathia"(109.lns:8-16).


> There was no Greek language proper,  but  rather  different  tongues
> loosely  referred  to  as  Ancient  Greek.        :::::::::  :::::::
  :::::::
Mm, I distinctly remember that the Dorian Herodotus asked Homer to help
him translate his  Books from the one dialect to the other and then won
the prize in an Athenian Festivity.
Actually, these dialects were quite  vital  in the misunderstanding the
Athenians & Spartans had in coordinating their efforts, during the bat-
tle of Platea against the Persians...
And Language was the main reason Alexander I needed all his translators
when he gave the enemy's plans to the Athenians and then to the rest of
the Greeks... Demostenes had a similar problem as well !
All of the above  "proofs"  were included initially in the  famous book
"Alice in Wonderland",  but unfortunately Alice woke up before ever re-
aching that door.. :-)                    ::::: :::: ::


> The entire area that was part of the Ancient Greek world used a simi-
> lar alphabet which was based on the Phoenecian.

Yes,all Greek branches used the alphabet and this how the Romans obtai-
ned it. As far as the Phoenicians of Lebanon are concerned they probab-
ly took a Script from the Cretans (A.Toynbee).
The Mycenaean Greeks devised the Linear Script B (15th ce BC) conveying
their own language in it,  asserting their independence from the famous
islanders of Crete (with whom they eventually mingled with).
Centuries later the Greeks abandoned this syllabic technic  (63 symbols
let alone the ideographs) and adopted the modern vowels-consonants idea
for an alphabet. The new IDEA (usage of single sounds vs syllables) may
have been a Phoenician one.. but being fluent in both the "Old Syllabic
Method" and the "New -much quicker one" I discern no big differences in
reading the ancient accounts of the Mycenaean World.
The modern "S" comes from the old "SO".  "T" comes from the Linear "TO"
and "P" from the "PI".  The "Omicron" and "Omega" letters correspond to
short and long O respectively  (all know what "micro" and "mega" mean),
Epsilon, Ipsilon etc fill the list...
<  There may be some arguments over the "Alpha" (still the picture of a
   bull if you invert it), or "Beta" (the two hut-house)... but this is
   or may lead to a discussion involving several old civilizations.>


> Even though there is evidence indicating that the Macedonian king Al-
> exander I was "permitted" to compete in the Olympic games, this is to
> my knowledge the only Macedonian to have  ever  done  so and does not
> constitute a proof for the "Greekness" of the Macedonians.

--> Simply... "indicating" ?  :-)  :-)  :-)
--> Anyway, the rest part of the phrase is really revealing:  Those who
    distinctly remember their ancestors (as the Greeks do)  WOULD obvi-
    ously RECALL the names of Arhelaos of Perdiccas and others from the
    RECORDS of the "Olympic Games victors"   a l o n e.
    (Not a word for the second place etc...)
    It is understandable that the modern Northern Slav neighbors aren't
    very familiar with the ancient Greek kingdom of the Macedonians and
    hardly have any memories of this culture and history...
    The Greeks may emphasize the  various  Alexanders which is what the
    others read and learn about and (thus)  REPEAT!
    Of course,there are more things about the Dorian-Macedonian branch,
    but it seems that the Greeks  do not have enough time to inform the
    Northern ex-Yugoslavs/ex-Bulgarians on this issue... Patience!
    CERTAINLY  NO  MACEDONIAN WOULD EVER FORGET SUCH  "CASES"  !!!
--> Of course the "permission" stuff is   I r r e l e v a n t .   Every
    athlete was checked before participating.  Not  all his compatriots
    were checked (Why should they?).  See above authors for the latter.


> The spreading of the  Hellenic culture  by Alexander the Great earned
> him the epithet, 'Hellenophile'.

The same mistake again! I'm tired of repeating it:You are confusing the
epithets of two completely different Alexanders! One was the "Filellen"
and the other was the "Great"


> But the question arises  if he was a Hellene then why was he called a
> Hellenophile?

The argument is false ad ovo for you confuse two different people...
And... you consider yourself a Macedonian? :-)
                               NO MACEDONIAN WOULD MAKE THESE MISTAKES.


> A note on Olympus. I have been told by some historians that the moun-
> tain of Olympus is referred to as, Olymp and Olympia.

--> In the first case these people may "cut"  few letters from the who-
    le name as as the Turks did with Izmir (Smyrna in Greek).
--> In the second case:  Yes, "Olympia" was a common name (cite of the
    Olympiads or the Mother of Alexander the Great. )
--> But "Mount Olympus" also been called "Olympia"?
    Who are these..historians please?  It is an honest question. No in-
    sult or teasing intended.


> Furthermore,in some of the older inscriptions there was a mark prece-
> ding the first character signifying the sound h or gh.

--> Could it be a scratch?
--> The oldest script?   Which one?   Not the Iliad!

> This would result in 'h'Olymp and 'g'Olymp and 'h'Olympia and 'g'Oly-
> mpia. Olympus refers to the largest mountain in Hellas.  They tell me
> that comparison with Modern Macedonian is very interesting.  You see,
> the Macedonian word for big mountain is  'GOLYM PLANINA',  with golym
> referring to big.

--> "Olympus" is a Phrygian name and thus fits the history of movements
    of people in the Aegean basin.
--> MEGALOM- means BIG in Greek. (I guess the  "PLANINA" has nothing to
    do with the "OROS"=mountain. No?)
--> You may get GALOM or GOLYM by cutting a part,as we explained above,
    from this particular Greek word provided it hasn't a Bulgar link.
    The Slavs may have taken several elements from the Greeks  changing
    them as they did with Thessalo-niki (Solun)...


> The original bible was written in this language.
> The  KOINE  language is claimed by some to be one of the more unusual
> dialects of the Ancient Greek tongues.

--> KOINH means "common".
--> It was derived from the Athenian dialect,  used during the Helleni-
    stic period as a devise to allow non-Greeks of the Empire to learn
    Greek easier and simpler.        ::: ::::::
--> The Bible was translated to the KOINE in Alexandria of Egypt by 70
    philologists. All these are well known facts.


> Nevertheless,  the  Modern Macedonian  language has over one thousand
> words that come directly from the KOINE.

--> So what? The Greek Language and even the English one has more words
    from the KOINE!  It only indicates that the Bulgarians took the Cy-
    rillic but chose to take fewer words from the Greeks,what does this
    mean?                    :::::
--> But why   o n l y   1,000 words   out of  the 150,000 of Thucydides
    (who was a model of the KOINE)? Not to mention the 68,000,000 words
    from the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae  (of  T.Brunner, L.Berkowitz, K.
    Squitier, S.Vrioni, P.Anastas)..!


> Terms such as 'DAIRON',which means dowry and in Macedonian is 'DAROI'

Well, let's fill in the story here:The Greek root is "Dos"-"Dot"-"Dor":
--> We find "Dotal" = "Giving" in English,
--> Also "Dose" & "Dosage" = "something that one gives"
--> "Doron" = "Present" or "Gift".  A 110% Homeric word. Open you Webs-
    ter's to check them all. Compare "Doron" to "Dairon". The roots are
    definitely Greek.  :-)


> The KOINE 'GNESDE' is the same as the Macedonian 'GNESDE' which means
> nest.

Nest! Coincidently, the "leader of the group" is "Nestor"  (Yes, as the
well known figure from the Iliad)  and "Nostos" is the "trip home".


> I'm sure there are many who are familiar with the term  GLAGOLITSA or
> GLAGOL.  Some argue that this was a precurser to the Kyrilic alphabet
> while others claim it was a language that preceded  Kyrilic by centu-
> ries.  In Macedonian GLAS means VOICE.

The answer is obvious here:  The "Gla"-"Gle"-"Glos" is certainly conne-
cted to the ancient Macedonian for it is simply.. ANCIENT GREEK as:
--> "Glossa" = "Language" = "Tongue" (other words from this origin are:
    "glossary","glossitis" etc,and I'm even tempted to include the god-
     dess of thanks,gratitude and acknowledgement: the Grace A-GLA-ia.)
--> "Glazein" or "Clazein" = "Shout"
--> "Clama" ="clamare" = "crying out" = "call" = "claim"  <note conson-
              <latin>                                     <ants+vowels!
--> "Cleue" is the english: "Laughter" or "Gelotas" (in greek) ==> eng-
     lish:"Glee" = "Hilaritas"  (in latin,sounds as the initial greek!)
     or "Joke" and "music voice" (both in english). Compare to "GLE".

> Bear with me while I approach my point.   When I explain to my mother
> such  mysterious  things as the functioning of the  VCR or Stereo she
> sometimes turns to me and says,  "NE TOKU GLAGOLI",  which means stop
> speaking in glagol, that is , in a language I don't understand.  It's
> fascinating how this has been incorporated into the Macedonian langu-
> age.

Yes, she says:
"Do not speak in Glagolic,the old language that Cyril (Constantinos the
Philosopher) devised in Byzantium in order to preach/talk to the Slavs"


> I am curious as to wether this is also true of the Bulgarian.  I have
> also stated before that the Macedonian term for "come here", is "ELLA
> TUKA".

Well, if the first word was "ELA" then the Greeks would probably reco-
gnize "COME"... :-)
This is the very root for the english words  "Elastic" & "Elater" which
denote "Easiness to stretch" and  "something that drives another thing"
respectivelly....  BUT, no one said that the British are Macedonians or
even distant decedents of some colony established by Athens & Smyrna..!


> Now these things are not a "proof",of the connection or continuity of
> the Modern Macedonian with the Ancient  but I am told that there is a
> list of over one thousand (and growing), terms of this kind.

Definitely! No one says they should be a proof. It's a simple borrowing
of words as in all neighboring areas around the world..


> The Modern Macedonian language has never properly been studied.

Mmm, well it is relatively new...  but I am curious:
What do the following words mean?  vris, dipla, drum, zugraf, imarmena,
kalam,  spolati, lisida, spanio, ftesen, hondrokefal, argisam, kinisam,
katigorisam, aresam, klotsam, mirisam.

> to be continued
> Lubi  Uzunov

Please do not confuse the two Alexanders again...
Andronikos Romanos

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia