Newsgroups: bit.listserv.gaynet
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 15:01:37 -0400
From:         gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 287

In this issue:
                                 cheers
                     Biblical discussions on Gaynet
                    GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 286
                            The Bible verses
                             TO ANDREW CARD
           Mosquito quote (GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 286)
                              Holy talk...
                         Talking about religion
                      NJ sued over gay rights law
                     a complaint against Christians
               Notre Dame Sexuality Survey -- coming soon
                    GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 286
                              GLB Studies
                              Info needed

Please send messages for the entire list to gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU,
requests to be added or deleted to gaynet-request@ATHENA.MIT.EDU, and
personal replies directly to the other person, not the entire list.
Postings to GayNet are public communications.  If you must keep your
privacy, send your messages to gaynet-anonymous@ATHENA.MIT.EDU.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 16 April 92 07:28:57 CST
From: LLRLF%UTXDP.bitnet@utxvm.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: cheers

hello gaynetters!
   for everyone's information: harvey fierstein is going to play a role on
next week's "cheers" as rebecca's (kirstie alley) college sweetheart, who has
taken "a different road" (as tv guide puts it), when she tries to rekindle
the romance. please check your local listings for time and channel, and set
your vcr's.

richard foster
ut austin general libraries

p.s.: does anyone know if the new edition of "movie bluff checklist" is out
yet?  please let me know.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 16 Apr 92 07:20 PDT
From: Paul Camp                            <ECZ5PAU@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Biblical discussions on Gaynet

Just had to get my two cents in concerning the Christianity on Gaynet debate.
No problem as far as I'm concerned.  For every verse that the "phobes" can cite
that homosexuality is an abomination against God, I'm sure we could come up
with an equal number of quotes from Christ telling us to love our fellow man/
woman (whoever he's screwing).  This argument will undoubtedly go on forever.
Personally, I like to hear the "phobes" spout off every once in awhile.  It
makes my blood boil and reminds me of the ignorance and bigotry that's in the
church.  My question to Loren is "Why do these discussions disburb you so much?
"  If they bother you, just do what David in Gettysburg does...SKIP IT.

-Paul Camp
AAUPL-S/C (Film & TV)
UCLA

"Mother, I've waited two years to grow nails...JUNGLE RED! -"The Women"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 07:43 PST
From: QM311253@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU
Subject: Re: GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 286

Please remove me from your mailing list.  I have enjoyed reading the
Gaynet digests but I must surrender my account immediately.  I hope
to be reassigned another account next semester and will look forward
to mornings with Gaynet.  Until then, au revoir mes amis,
                                                Laurent.
Si tu es francais, je veux votre sexe.  Postes-moi bien-tot.  Salut.

------------------------------

From: "The Queer Cavalier [K. Ritz]" <klr7a@uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 11:03:22 EDT
Subject: The Bible verses

Hello computer fools!  ;-)

I know that this has been on here 1000 times, but I have deleted all
references of Biblical verses, both "anti" and "pro", which deal with this
homosexuality issue thing.  Now I have a friend (yes, it's true, I have
many--can you believe it?) who is interested in obtaining this info.  Could
someone please e-mail me privately with this info?  I know it just came
through a couple of issues ago, but as I said, I deleted it.  advTHANKSance!!

In stressed out puppyhood,

Kevin Ritz, klr7a@virginia.edu
Joy and laughter, love and affection, keep us moving in the right
direction . . .         --The Thompson Twins, _Here's to Future Days_

------------------------------

Date:      Thu, 16 Apr 1992 11:27:54 EDT
From: Tim Kanaley <TPKANALE%SUVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu>
Subject:   TO ANDREW CARD

This is a Message to Andrew Card...I tried to send a reply to
your request, but don't think you got it.  Please send some
mail directly to me so that I can forward that mail to you.
For some reason the userid that came with your request was
not accepted by my system...Syracuse University sucks anyway.
Thanks, Tim.

------------------------------

From: PETER@hup.ucla.edu
Date:     16 Apr 92 09:53:30 PST
Subject:  Re: Mosquito quote (GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 286)

In the interest of "credit where credit is due", I believe Ron
Buckmire's very humorous quote should be attributed to Randy Shilts,
author of "And the Band Played On".  When asked on a radio phone
in show whether one could contract HIV from a mosquito (a question he
had been asked *AD NAUSEUM* and was getting pretty damned sick and
tired of hearing), Mr. Shilts responded without missing a beat, (No
longer having the article, I paraphrase, apologies to the source)
"Yes, you can get AIDS from a mosquito...*IF* you have unprotected
receptive anal intercourse with an infected mosquito..."

Hmmmmmm.  I wonder how many listeners immediately ceased this
unsafe behavior...                      :)


In Pride,                                               __________
Peter Hayashida                                          \      /
UCLA Lesbian and Gay Faculty Staff Network                \    /
(Go Bruins!)                                                \/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 13:31:45 EDT
From: SECSI003%SIVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Holy talk...

I don't think a topic should be banned from the net. If no one is interested
in it, no one will respond. I'm not a Christian, but I sometimes find the
discussions interesting. My LP is an ex-priest, so I know that there can
be some things that aren't easy to resolve. It's good to be able to get
new ideas and approaches, no matter what the topic. Sorry, Loren...
                                                               Steve Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 13:37 EST
From: VERBEEK%HOPE.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Talking about religion

Loren:

Contrary to your stereotypes, not everyone interested in dicussing the
religious questions is a `Southern Belle' (here in Michigan, I'm as far north
as you are in Seattle), just coming out (I'll refrain from reading you my gay
activist resume'), or even `hung up' on religion (the only time I've spent in
churches in recent memory has been for memorial services).

It's not something I personally care to devote a lot of time to at this point,
but it's certainly worthy of discussion.  Even if you don't buy an iota of
Christian theology, it helps to `know the enemy'.  And if you're not
interested, just go on to the next message.  (That's what I've been doing with
the non-discrimination policy messages, which are totally unrelated to
anything that might happen at my college in the next decade or five.)

        Cheers, Todd

------------------------------

From: stg@gfdl.GOV (Steve Garner)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 13:40:35 EDT
Subject: NJ sued over gay rights law

From the Trenton Times, 16 April, front page:

   The Orthodox Presbyterian Church yesterday filed a federal lawsuit against
 the
state, contending that NJ's new gay rights law infringes on the church's freedom
of speech and religion.
   In the lawsuit, filed in US District Court in Trenton, the denomination says
it should be allowed to discriminate against homosexuals in hiring matters.  The
suit contends that under the new law, the church could be forced to baptize,
marry and serve Holy Communion to homosexuals and could be barred from preaching
against homosexuality.
   The suit, filed on behalf of the church by the Rutherford Institute, a
Virginia-based group that specializes in defending religious liberty, seeks an
injunction preventing enforcement of the new law against religious groups.
   "The state has no business telling churches what they can and cannot do
within the walls of the church," said Thomas Neuberger, Rutherford Institute
lawyer.  "There is no constitutional right to engage in fornication, adultery
and homosexuality."
   "We want the ability to discriminate against people who commit (sexual sin),"
he said.  "My clients have nothing but compassion for people who fall into
 sexual
sin, but we can't condone it."
   The Orthodox Presbyterian Church has about 18,000 members nationwide and
2,113 members in NJ.
   "We're just a little concerned about the whole concept that the law can
come in and theoretically tell us not to preach something," said the Rev.
Richard Nelson, pastor of Grace Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hamilton.
   The law, passed on the last day of the Democrat-controlled, lame-duck
Legislature in January, affords sexual orientation the same state protection
given to race and gender in the civil rights statutes.  It makes it illegal
to harass homosexuals or deny them employment or housing.
   NJ is the fifth state to pass such a law; the others are MA, CT, WI and HI.
Rutherford Institute officials said they are also fighting Hawaii's law.
   Proponents of the law say it adequately exempts religious groups.
   "We believe the existing law incorporates exemptions and considerations for
religious organizations," said Jo Astrid Glading, spokeswoman for Gov. Jim
Florio.  "If they want to go to court, that's fine."
   Ed Martone, executive director of the NJ chapter of the American Civil
Liberties Union, said the law exempts religious groups in five sections.
   "I can't imagine what the point of this is," he said.  "If they're going
to challenge the law, they've got to show they've been mistreated by enforcement
of it.  They can't point to any case where the church has lost.  So what's the
problem?"
   Carol Kasabach, director of the Lutheran Office of Governmental Ministry,
one of the church groups that supported the law, said it adequately exempts
religious groups.
   "This law is dealing with housing, employment and contracts, and it's not
to infringe on any beliefs of any religious institution," she said.  "In our
teachings it says that every person is entitled to civil rights.  This is a
civil rights bill.  That's the only way (the Lutheran church) has looked at
this."
   But William Bolan, executive director of the NJ Catholic Conference, said
the religious group exemption is not strong enough.  The Catholic Conference
supports a bill sponsored by Assemblyman Walter Kavanaugh, R-Somerville, that
would more firmly bar the state from infringing on religious groups' rights
in this matter.
   "I have misgivings about the law," Bolan said.  "We argued in the past and
do now that while there are exemptions in the current law, they're not written
very clearly."
   Bolan said he had not decided if the Catholic Conference would support the
lawsuit.
   "I would say if there are those who don't have great faith in the legislative
process or in its speed, then it's understandable they would chooose to go to
court," Bolan said.
   Laura Pople, president of the NJ Lesbian and Gay Coalition, said the group
expected such a lawsuit.
   "It doesn't surprise me that an organization is trying to use another tactic
to interfere with gays and lesbians getting their civil rights," she said.
   She said more tha 100 religious groups around the sate supported the new
law.
   Lesbian and Gay Coalition member Heidi Jones said she was disappointed by
the suit.
   "I'm a Christian, too, and seeing that the chruch is actually flying in the
face of what Christ taught in order to gain power -- it hurts," she said.

END

------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:00:39 MST
From: Gabriel <G9348712%NMSUVM1.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu>
Subject:      a complaint against Christians

   chuckmc@kailand.kai.com (Chuck McCaffrey) writes:
       It is true that homosexuality is condemned in the Mosaic
       laws.  I intend no offense to people who claim to believe in
       and follow the Mosaic laws, but frankly, these laws are
       mostly ludicrous, and there is no evidence that they come
       from God rather than being merely the conventional and
       convenient wisdom of Moses or other tribal leaders.  Few
       reasonable people would accept most of these laws today.

    I had hoped that I wouldn't have to respond to this, that the 'progressive'
Christians (the ones who hate to be lumped in with the fundies) would have
stood up and told this guy how horrible this is.  But they haven't so far, so I
will.

1.  Judaism is a tribal religion (like the Zuni, Navajo, Tlingit, or Inuit
religion);  just as chuck would probably be ashamed of having called these
tribes' religions "ludicrous" just because their rituals and values are foreign
to him, so, too, he should be ashamed of treating my tribe that way.
However strange Mosaic ritual and law may be, you, chuck, are not expected or
required to follow it, and Jewish law does not insist that *you* live by it
in order to reach salvation (however that may be defined).  As a Christian,
your connection to Judaism is only that you have hijacked some (not all) of our
texts and construed them to fit your own theology.  Your ignorance does not
make Mosaic law ludicrous.

2.  TRICKS PEOPLE USE TO MAKE JUDAISM LOOK LUDICROUS:
  a. MAKING UP Mosaic law that does not exist.  Example: Nothing in the Law
     forbids wearing of poly/cotton, regardless of the number of times you
     folks have said and e-mailed the statement.  I can't see how you can
     translate *sha'atnez* to mean poly/cotton.  The only material that is
     'unkosher' is a linen/wool blend (which does not seem to hamper my life
     very much).
  b. APPROPRIATING Mosaic law and calling it their own.  Example:  "Love thy
     neighbor as thyself."  Christians seem to think Jesus invented this.
  c. CLASSIFYING as "ludicrous" laws that in other mouths seem admirable.
     Example:  Environmentally correct Christians or post-Christians point to
     Genesis as the root cause behind the evil of environmental neglect ("Rule
     the earth and subdue it").  They prefer to consider merely as ritual
     trivia the following laws that seem to require Jews to back off from total
     control:  -- Letting the land lie fallow every seven years
               -- Not eating a bird and its eggs on the same day
               -- Not boiling a kid in its mother's milk
               -- Not defoliating a land during war
               -- Not eating the blood of animals ("It is the life of it."
                  meaning: You are not entitled to consume that far.)
  d. Intentionally MISTRANSLATING the Hebrew text to make it fit Christian
     needs.  Example:  The King James Version uses the word "sodomite" many
     times in the Hebrew Bible to translate a Hebrew word that has connection
     neither to Sodom nor to homosexuality per se, but only to cult
     prostitution (by non-Jewish cults, as it turns out).

3. In regard to Mosaic laws about homosexuality, I can't be sure just what
   they mean.  Since the word "to'evah" appears in at least one of the
   citations (at least, I think so) -- this is the word that Christians
   translate as abomination -- I wonder whether here too, the Bible means to
   proscribe ritual prostitution.  What do you think, chuck?  You seem so sure
   of yourself about Mosaic law.

4. "Few reasonable people" is an interesting phrase for chuck to use,
   especially considering that he finds virgin birth and resurrection
   reasonable.  I think that "reasonable"-ness is not so clearly defined, and
   is in the mind of the beholder.

5. To return to my original point:  Unlike Christianity, which sees religion
   as a community of faith, and requires all persons seeking salvation to join
   this faith, Judaism is the praxis of a tribe and asks of other persons only
   to be allowed the respect that Jesus claimed "thy neighbor" is due (even if
   he was quoting Torah).  One wonders whether the same Christians giggle at
   the strange practices of other "backward" peoples, or whether their
   intemperance is pointed only at Jews.

6. Given, again, the fact that no 'progressive' Christian (that means you,
   Jon, particularly) has had the courage or decency to say what I said, I
   will no longer listen to any whining about treating all Christians alike.
   Your silence has been quite loud.

7. One good thing chuck has accomplished: Proving their is no such thing as
   a Judaeo-Christian tradition, other than the ill will Christians have
   towards Jews.

Does this all have a place on the Net?  No.  And if someone else had been kind
enough to tell off chuck, I wouldn't have gone into such detail doing so.  I am
as angry at the silences as I am at the words.

Gabriel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 14:13:23 EDT
From: mike.w.miller.40@nd.edu
Subject: Notre Dame Sexuality Survey -- coming soon

I've had more than enough people publically and privately ask for the
survey, so I'll type it in (*sigh*) with the results as soon as I get the
chance -- maybe this weekend.  Maybe Easter day, just to spite ND...

Mike!

***--------+----------------------------------------------------------***
*  ______  |  Mike! <=> Mike W. Miller           office:  219 239-8024  *
|  \    /  |  e-mail:  Mike.W.Miller@nd.edu    home/fax:  219 237-0788  |
|   \  /   +------------------------------------------------------------+
|    \/    |  Clinton-Tsongas in 1992!    They're not Bush and Quayle.  |
*          |  Office of University Computing, University of Notre Dame  *
***--------+----------------------------------------------------------***

------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 92 14:11:22 EST
From: akc <FHI00AKC@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 286

I am doing a survey on behalf of the American Historical
Associations Committee on Women Historians of gay and lesbian
historians.  I would appreciate hearing from any historians
on the following topics:  How open are you, on a scale of 1-10,
to colleagues, students etc.? when did you become open? have
you encountered any discrimination or prejudice, from who?
Do you teach or write about gay issues? Is there a gay or
lesbian faculty or student group on campus and are you active?
How has your experience as a gay/lesbian affected your experience
as a woman or person of color and vice versa (academically)? Does
your institution have an anti-discrimination clause?  Has your
institution /dept. been helpful or welcoming to your partner?
Please include your age, status, type of institution, sex, etc.
in your reply, and any other comments.   This survey will probably
result in a panel at the next AHA, and an article and possibly
policy recommendations by the Committee of Women HIstorians.  Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 14:16 EDT
From: MJONES@drew.drew.edu
Subject: GLB Studies

Hi There!

just me again with a happy announcement:
	After a surprisingly short discussion with the Dean of the
College of Liberal Arts here at Drew he agreed with me that we need to
start a Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual Studies program.  Not only did he think
that the courses I had come up with were a good idea, but he also said
that they could be implemented by next spring.  Yeah!

Now my question:  Is there anyone out there who can give me
suggestions as to how to approach the faculty and get these courses
passed through them?  The administration _seems_ all for it and the
only obstacles now are setting them up.  How should I start?

If you could email me privately with suggestions, I'd be really
grateful!

Thanks!

Michael

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Michael Barret Jones		| ......... |  "I have done and seen
Drew University			|  .......  |        EVERYTHING!"
MJONES@DREW.DREW.EDU		|   .....   |
MJONES@DREW.BITNET		|    ...    |       -Tommy Boatwright
(201) 408-4479			|     .     | from _The Normal Heart_
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

------------------------------

From: John Leslie Howard <nb010@uafhp.uark.edu>
Subject: Info needed
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:19:43 CDT
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]

	I am working on a project for a Feminist Thought and Culture class
and was wondering in anyone out there could help me get some information on
two different things:
	1) I need to find some articles on cross-dressing, with particular
emphasis on how the practice breaks away from or conforms to traditional
gender roles.  I need info on cross-dressing among males and females, both
gay and straight.  (I realize that there may not be a whole lot written in
this area.  What there is, however, is sure not to be found in the
University of Arkansas library!)
	2) Does anyone know of a movie in which a lesbian character
cross-dresses as a male (I guess what I'm looking for is a lesbian
Tootsie.)
	Please send any responses to me at nb010@uafhp.uark.edu.  (Be sure
that those are "zeros" after the "nb."
	Thanks in advance for your help.
	Yours, John Howard

------------------------------

End of GayNet Digest
********************
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