HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: pentacles on arms
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:59:34 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Nicholas wrote:

> In other words, a fictional character in a work of fiction.  Also, if I
> recall correctly, that was the only reference Arval found, or the only one
> he mentioned on the Rialto.

I am afraid your memory is faulty.  We found at least two other uses of the
pentacle in period armory: one in the arms of German family in late period
(inverted, even!), one in the arms of a Dutch surgeon's guild in the 15th
century.  I've mentioned these from time to time on the Rialto.

> If the College of Arms is going to start accepting the attributes of
> fictional characters as historical precedents, then it's soon going to be
> registering persona names based on elves, fairies, dragons, etc. as well.

Creating armory for legendary characters was a common game in medieval
literature (Arthur & his knights, biblical figures, God, the Devil, Prester
John, the angels, the early saints, etc).  These devices appeared in rolls
of arms, mixed in with the armory of real people.  In effect, this invented
armory became a much a part of heraldry as the real thing.  Since they
sprang from the same culture which produced the real heraldry, and were
treated as if they were real heraldry, why shouldn't we treat them the same
way?  

Medieval parents named their children after literary characters, at least
at some times and places.  In the generation following the composition of
The Song of Roland, "Roland" and "Oliver" became two of the most common
names among the French nobility.  Arthur of Britanny was consciously named
after King Arthur.  The College of Arms' approach to that question is to
accept a name from period literature if it can be shown either that the
particular name was also used by humans in period, or that the name is part
of a class of names which was commonly adopted by humans in a particular
time and place.


Jason of Rosaria wrote:

> There IS a ban on carrying magical talismans into combat, which is in
> Co[r]pora. 

Not any more.  It was removed from Corpora and from the Rules of the Lists.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Same-sex consorts, homophobia, fun mavins, etc.
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:20:49 GMT

In article <VsXXqB3w165w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

>find me an example of a crown being awarded by tourney in period.  i can get
>you examples of same-sex inspiration of a chivalric manner, and same-sex
>coupling among women warriors.  but i've never seen any historical evidence of
>a crown bweing awarded by tourney.  have you?  

Every tourneying society.

One of the ways it is possible for the re-enactment groups which come to
Pennsic to co-exist with the SCA is by considering the SCA to be a tourneying
society.  Which it conveniently is.

And like all clubs, it makes its own rules.

Aryk Nusbacher
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Music, Bad German?!?
Date: 8 Sep 92 00:22:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <00960212.92FE3AC0.24986@geology.ucdavis.edu> helm@garnet.ucdavis.EDU writes:

>I myself would call a song written with period-style words and 
>period-style music, no matter how good, a period re-creation.  It's the 
>difference between a real antique and a reproduction.  I've never seen
>it done myself.  I think if I ever met someone who really succeeded, I
>would drag them bodily to the edge of the laurel's council, and throw
>them bodily in, with a note attached that said "Here - this is yours!"
	
	I'm not sure if this a philosophical difference or a semantic one,
but I use the word 'period' to refer to a reproduction. The more 'period'
the better. I would call a real medieval piece 'vintage' or 'that widget in
museum x', or 'written in the xth century'. I think of period as a modern ideal
to strive for, as an ideal it is not completely attainable, the more you study,
the closer you get (like halving the distance each time you try - you can get
close enough for all practical purposes).
	Music isn't my field, I just dabble a bit but that won't stop me
from babbling on. I think doing performances of actual medieval music on
the correct instrument is only half the story. It should be the important part
of an SCA musician's training, but the goal is to be able to write original
period music correct in musical style, subject matter, instrumentation, and
all the other things I don't know anything about. Garb mavens aren't expected
to relentlessly turn out exact copies of the few vintage garments in museums.
You make one or two to train you eye and hand, and then go on to experiment
keeping in mind what you have learned about what people in your period thought
looked good. We aren't just copycats, we are a living, breathing Society
with a culture of our own, which happens to be based in history.
							-Ilaine

-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	Before you can spin the wool, you need to comb it.
                   | 	Use the combs with the 5 rows of 6" razor sharp spikes.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: slansk@ee.ualberta.ca (Richard Slansky)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: An Tir Crown Tourney
Date: 10 Sep 92 15:52:12 GMT
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada

Hey Carolus ... thanks for that report. (Hey what about
the Heralds, they did a good job too :-)  )
This event is going down in the history books as
"Snow Crown". Avacal (our Crown Principality) seems
to be cursed with bad weather for Crown events comming to
our area (Snow, tornados, frost). We cant' be the only 
ones. Does anyone have some other Bad Weather Crown horror
stories?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lord Mordecai Salzer,Yeoman of Borealis, |  Rick Slansky
Herald for the Barony of Borealis of     |  slansk@bode.ee.ualberta.ca
the Kingdom of An Tir.                   |  Edmonton Alberta
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: esp@cup.portal.com (Emily Sue Pinnell)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Homoerotic poetry
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 19:23:44 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Sep13.175347.20817@castle.org>

Greetings!

There is a poem by a woman troubador which is apparently addressed to
another woman.  Scholars can't resolve themselves on whether or not 
it was meant sexually or just friendly-admiring like.
You can find it in Meg Bogin's _The_Women_Troubadors_, an excellent
small paperback book.

		Amelie d'Anjou 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Western Crown List (was Re: Inspiration)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:35:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep09.160955.31545@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!  Hal wrote something that caught my eye:
>
>> In the West, if you're a member and you're an authorized fighter, it
>> is almost a given that you fight in the Crown Lists. 
>
>An interesting statement: So far as I know, your Crown Tourney lists have
>only recently topped 100 fighters.  That's certainly large by any kingdom's
>standards, but think about your statement: Are there really only 100
>fighters in the West Kingdom?  

Not all fighters get to Crown events.  Not all have someone to fight
for.  Not all are willing to do the work to reign.

As I understand it, we're the only kingdom in the SCA to *ever* have a
Crwon Lists top 100 entrants.  So, while your comment is quite apt, we
appear to have a relatively high proportion of fighters that do fight
in the Crown Lists.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 23:14:59 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Angharad ver' Rhuawn writeth of those that play at being elves.

Last month, some one did write of a suitable reply.  This does require
stepping out of persona, but,

"Hello.  This is a convention of the Society for Creative Anachronism.
We try to re-create medieval and Renaissance life.  You are welcome to
join us; the only requirement is that you should dress as a medieval or
renaissance person.  If you are having trouble with this, there are a
number of merchants near the barn who would be able to find clothing in
your size."

I agree with Angharad, however, that this should not be necessary.

Several people have pointed out that we don't re-create persecution,
and other aspects of the middle ages.  I realize this is not a hard and
fast rule, but I think that, from the perspective of authenticity,
errors of omission are less serious than errors of commission.  Doing
things that were not done, such as being an elf, or racing through the
streets on a motorcycle with a buffalo head, are much more irritating
than not doing things that were done.

Alternatively, everything we do should either be what they did in
period, or things that are done in the modern world (like washing our
hands).  Things we are used to, in one of the two worlds we inhabit, do
not call as much attention to themselves as things that fit into
neither.

This allows for the reasonable approach of starting with modern world
behaviours and replacing them gradually with medieval ones, without
ever taking up absurd ones.  (This approach, unfortunately, must be 
modified slightly to account for the absurd behaviours that the SCA
itself occasionally forces upon us.)
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vincent@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Victor W. Wong)
Subject: Knights and Warriors
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 18:38:27 EDT

Unto the denizens of the Rialto does Vincent, known to men as the
Calculator, send greetings.

Good gentles, it seems that we have been presented with a choice when
it comes to SCAdian-oriented programming.  From page 57 of the Sept.
12th TV Guide:

     "Back off, AMERICAN GLADIATORS--"KNIGHTS AND WARRIORS" are
     about to enter the clash-TV arena.  Starting this month, the
     weekly series pits foolhardy amateurs on roller skates in
     jousting and cross-bow events against human meat-lockers
     dressed in medieval garb.  Surely they joust."


Were I of a mischievous demeanor, I would suggest that this series seems
much closer to the spirit of the SCA in practice than does Covington
Cross.  Of course, we are more civilized in our practice of the arts of
war than that.  Aren't we?

======================================================================
VINCENT THE CALCULATOR    |  Internet:    vincent@micor.ocunix.on.ca
c/o Victor Wong           |  CompuServe:  70410,17
345 Clarence Street, #201 |  -----------------------------------------
Ottawa, ON  K1N 5R5       |  "Closed minds lead short lives."--Anon.
======================================================================
                     Member, Compagnie Mercurie
From: samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:17:08 GMT
Organization: Old curmudgeon

In article <18jaanINN7a@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:
>Perhaps some of our distinguished
>elders on the Rialto who remember the early years could enlighten us as
>to the reason _they_ began to play our game.

	I'm not all that early (Dorothy and Hal much pre-date me), but I
can speak to the reason that the "elves, gnomes, leprechauns, ghosties
and ghoulies, and things that go bump in the night" came into the Society.
	The Society grew out of Science Fiction fandom.  All of the
people at the "First Tourney" were fans of one stripe or another.
	I was recruited into Hightower (and the Society) at a meeting of
the "Elves, Gnomes, and Little Men's Science Fiction & Chowder Society"
(I think the name was -- the "Little Men's" part is accurate).

	As you say, the early folk, for the most part, were just too
polite (or un-discriminating) to tell the fantasy fen to flake off.

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com 		      UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb
From: mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Michael Squires)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Early Music
Summary: Try Thomas Binkley
Keywords: music
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:34:20 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

I personally like the work of Thomas Binkley, who started in the 1960's by
learning Arabic music as a means of reconstructing the music of the troubadors.
He has since done a number of wonderful things, including a performance of
the Greater Play from the Carmina Burana manuscripts using an attempt to
reconstruct the most likely staging.  He is also a monster on the lute; it's
clear that he thinks that medieval music can easily stand comparison with
later works.

Binkley also did a pre-Tridentine mass (Dufay, if I remember correctly) where
it became very clear how functional the music was in the context of the mass.

I was lucky enough to sit with Binkley and his wife years ago at an IU
Madrigal dinner (he was forced at the point of a gun to supervise them in
his first year at IU).  It turned out that one of his records, The Agony of
Languedoc, raised some political hackles in France (one side contained
Provencal music lamenting the Albigensian Crusade and the other side contained
modern Provencal political protest songs).

For lute music I feel that O'Dette has no peer.  There is a recording of
O'Dette in duets recorded in a manor house that have a wonderful ambiance.

One thing I don't like is the current trend in English performances of
Elizabethan music; I really don't understand how anyone can believe that
music played by people wearing the most ornate clothes in European history,
played in some of the most ornamented buildings ever built, with walls
covered with the most ornamented artwork in European history would play
their music without ornamentation.

One thing that I know was performed but which seems to never have been
recorded or filmed was a 1960's performance of one of the Medici intermedia
at Illinois.  I have a book describing the performance, and it was apparently
done in costume with much of the elaborate stage machinery used originally
at a cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Sigh....

The funniest performance of early music I've ever seen (funny to SCA only)
was a Folger Consort performance for Christmas about 15 years ago; during
the concert two of the musicians began dancing the Manschaft!  I later
traced the infection to the SCA group in Cincinnati, where the musicians
had studied (the Manschaft dates to 1971, Northwoods).
-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sylla@ttd.teradyne.com (Craig Sylla)
Subject: Design and manufacture of armor (chainmail)
Keywords: armor chainmail
Organization: Teradyne Inc., Telecommunications Div.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 19:57:56 GMT

Greetings, SCA denziens!

I am looking for information on the design and manufacture of armor,
in particular chainmail.

I have recently become interested in making armor, and I am looking
for types which are:
	Reasonably inexpensive (materials and tools)
	Feasible in a limited work area (I live in a 1-bedroom apt with
	two ferrets, so I can't exactly crank up a forge!)
Chainmail seems to be suitable, and I have made a small (3"x24") piece of
it.  Unfortunately, I can't find any of the wire that this piece is made
with (10-ga. aluminium), so I suspect I will need to start over.
Specific questions:
	What types of metal (steel, brass, aluminium) are considered
	correct for SCA activities?  (I'm guessing that Al is not?)
	What gauges or thicknesses of wire are suitable?  What size
	links do you make?
	What kind of lining/padding do you need inside the mail?
	Is 15 or 17 gauge steel wire OK?  This is the size used for
	electric fences, and therefore is available in 1/4 and 1/2
	mile spools quite cheaply from farm supply stores.  (Al is also
	made in these gauges)
	Are there any good (or even not-so-good) books on making armor?
	What books are good for historical accuracy?  (Any history books
	in particular.)
Please Email any assistance you wish to offer!
I am also interested to know where there are any SCA groups in the Chicago
area!
	Thanks for your help!
		Craig
	sylla@ttd.teradyne.com




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford)
Subject: Re: Arrow number Three ...
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 16 Sep 92 04:04:39 GMT

ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
>  The story is that banning the registration of pentacles
>(pentagrams) was intended to tell mundania that SCA does not
>officially sanction people and groups which use the pentagram
>as their symbol -- because some of those groups are evil.

	No, because a large amount of the public believe that _all_
groups that display pentagrams are evil.

>  Of course, SCA doesn't officially sanction any group, it's
>just decided to officially state that it _DOESN'T_ sanction
>groups which use pentagrams or fylolwhatevers.

	Flyflots. AKA swastikas.

	And the SCA has made no statements about "sanctioning"
"groups". The policy is that devices (coats of arms) that contain
flyflots or pentagrams, cannot be officialy registered with the SCA's
College of Heralds.

>  Arguments of historical accuracy and the careful re-creation
>of the genuine bigotries of your selected period aside, how does
>a non-profit organization get away with officially censuring
>the registration of a symbol which _DOES_ meet your requirements
>of historical relevancy, and which is used prominently by the
>Covenant of the Goddess, a federally-recognised faith?

	1) Most people agree that the pentagram, in period, was a
Christian symbol. From what I understand, it didn't become associated
with non-Christian beliefs until the late 1800's, when Aleister
Crowley and company took it.

	2) Non-profit status does not imply public organization. The
SCA does not recieve money from any governments (that I know of), and
for that reason is not a public organization.

	3) Should we also allow the use of swastikas in devices, since
there are modern groups that use it?

	A bit of advice -- you might receive fewer attacks and nasty
responses if you tried to avoid implying that the SCA is populated by
narrow-minded bigots. Calling us "homophobes" and using phrases like
"the careful re-creation of ... bigotries" is inflammatory. Those of
us who have actually _been_ to SCA events and meetings know how open
and free the SCA is -- and resent someone who is admittedly ignorant
of the SCA in practice telling us othereise.

--
A republic is not an easy form of government to live under, and when 
the responsibility of citizenship is evaded, democracy decays and 
authoritarianism takes over. 
                                                        -Earl Warren

Robert Crawford 			betel@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Subject: Re: Arrow number Two ...
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:00:51 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.164044.5502@lmt.mn.org>, ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org
(Ciaran Benson) writes:

|>   That still doesn't make me feel any more comfortable about
|> coming to an event where folks are standing around with 
|> penants and shields bearing any number of symbols which are
|> heavily identified with the crusaders who destroyed so much
|> of my religion's heretage -- especially since I am forbidden
|> to bear a symbol which proudly proclaims the advancing
|> recovery of the folk traditions of ancient europe.

Ah, well, actually you aren't forbidden to wear any symbol, you
just can't register it.  There is a difference.  If you have 
been reading the net for a week you should know that.
 
|>   Kind of a coming together of the tribes after so long a
|> feud, but the side that lost isn't permitted to show it's
|> reclaimation flag.
|> 
|>   Admittedly, there are many symbols which would be much more
|> historically correct for the knights of Lithuania or the hordes
|> of Mongol (Hail, Attila, who led our people to the promised
|> land!), and I'm sure people use these frequently.

I'm glad you pointed that out, although it would be more accurate
to point out that the pentagram wasn't used at all as a religous
symbol by Lithuanian's or Mongol's.

|
|>   Face it.  Your executive body has banned the use of a symbol
|> which some of your membership hold very dear and in high
|> regard.  The reasons for banning it were, in the humble opinion
|> of myself and apparently others, inadequate considering the
|> apparent bigotry in identifying the pentacle as a symbol of
|> evil.

This point is well taken and somewhat convincing.

|> 
|>   Just reading this board for the last week, it doesn't seem
|> like your membership is entirely or even approximately
|> satisfied.

Maybe, this board isn't necessarily representative of the average
members of the SCA and neither are you.  But if enough people are
upset by this ruling, then perhaps it should be changed.

Conrad Hebenstorm				Paul Wayner
Shire of Isenfir, Atlantia			Charlottesville, VA



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Organization: Bradley University
Date:  8 Sep 92 16:01:04 GMT


	Let it lay. The reason anyone starting criticizing Costner's
accents was (at least for me) that movie critics lambasted him for not
having a British accent. I noticed the manhole cover, too, but my
reaction was, "Well, most people expect to see a certain type of cover
for a sewer access, and since it's _not_ integral to the story, I'm
not going to sweat it."

	Some of the "inaccuracies" in the movie were done for a simple
reason, probably not one that was thought of -- the mass audience
would have been jarred by the actual period version.

--
In our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: 
freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never 
to practice either.
                                                     -Mark Twain

Robert Crawford 			betel@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ellon@ADS.COM (Ellon St. Croix)
Subject: Re: SCA inquiry???
Organization: Wild Bill & BabyCat's House of Many Pleasures
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:02:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.131545.1@news.duc.auburn.edu> anvil@news.duc.auburn.edu writes:
>I am not very familar with the SCA. But there seems to be more to it than
>swords and shields. Could someone give me some information about your orgina
>zation. Hstory of it...etc.


  Yes, Please....Me too!


Ellon

--
"Excuse me,George Herbert,irregular-heart-beating,read-my-lying-lipping
slipping-in-the-polls,do-nothing,deficit-raising,make-less-money than 
Millie-the-White-House-dog-last-year,Quayle-loving,sushi-puking Bush!
I don't remember inviting your ass to my show!"  Arsenio Hall.