From: cblanc@pomona.claremont.edu (Malevolessence)
Subject: Re: LSD and alcoholics posting on usenet
Followup-To: alt.drugs
Organization: Multinational Corporations, Inc.
Date: 28 Dec 92 20:52:42 PST

> MDMA is no miracle cure, nor have I claimed it as one. It is a tool,
> valuable as part of a complete recovery process. Yes, alcoholics
> never recover--their brain chemistry remains the same. I am well
> aware.

	I doubt its value.  I doubt the psychological f/x of MDMA as argued on
this netgroup are in any way useful for defeating alcoholism, and calling it a
guide dog to truth is more than foolish...

> I'm one.

	You are far from alone...

> Using MDMA, and even liking it, does not automatically lead to
> dependency. It may for some people, it won't for others. So why
> not open it up as an avenue. I'm not claiming it will work for
> everyone, that would be stupid. But it will work for some people.

	Extreme doubts...

> 
> Once again, I know this attitude quite well. I am an alcholic and
> as of right now I am not ready to change.

	For some, it may be the best path.
 
> 
>> > see yourself clearly, you are more inclined to accept things for
>> > what they are. Acceptance is the first step towards recovery.
>> > 
>> > As for MDMA being 'substitution of one addiction for another',
>> > you saying this simply means that you don't understand MDMA. It
>> > may be many things, but almost nobody makes the claim that it's
>> > addictive, physically *or* psychologically.
>> 
>> 	Anything is addictive psychologically -- I understand more
>> of this than you do, trust me...
> 
> If *anything* is addictive psychologically (as I believe it is) then
> doesn't that mean that the term 'psychologically addictive' is really
> devoid of meaning (kind of like 'being'). Sorry, more semantics...

	No.  Anything can be.  Potential vs. reality.

> 
>> > 
>> > For the alcoholic, alcohol is a very powerful drug, almost an
>> > opiate. Some people don't understand that alcohol affects the
>> > alcoholic differently than it does a 'normal' person (any
>> > doctors to back me up on this?). Using LSD or MDMA is not
>> > 'merely' replacing one drug with another. For an alcoholic who
>> > has been partaking of a powerful drug for all of his adult life,
>> > the high is very much an intergral part of life. It's got to
>> > be replaced somehow (there is a natural human need for feeling
>> > high, whether through religion, drugs, exercise, whatever). If
>> > the highly debilitating drug alcohol can be replaced with a
>> > drug that everyone agrees is way WAY safer, then that is a
>> > great accomplishment in itself. And if it is a drug such as
>> > MDMA which generally tends to be self-moderating, even better.
>> > And as the alcoholic awakens from the 'other'-oriented
>> > alcoholic high to the 'self'-oriented MDMA high s/he may
>> > discover a whole new world which allows them to leave
>> > behind the alcohol.
>> 
>> 	What about the alcoholics who drink two beers a day?  I hear that MDMA
>> is neurotoxic; alcohol is as well, but at that level to a lesser degree.  For
>> one thing, I think you're talking hardcore alcoholic, in whose cases I doubt
>> your positive experience theory applies at all, and I doubt are treatable with
>> any drugs...MDMA or LSD might mmake them feel more alive, but they are still
>> going to need alcohol.  This is truth, something you've stated above -- I'm
>> saying that your treatment is bullshit, and that applying it makes as much
>> sense as applying leaches.  AM I coming through yet?
> 
> Two beers a day is no less neurotoxic than an equivalent dosage of
> MDMA. As for the two beer a day alcoholic, as long as they're not
> blacking out (which is entirely possible) and they're functioning
> satisfactorily (to them) why mess with things? We're talking here
> about recovery, which implies a desire for recovery. I
> certainly don't advocate ANY method of 'curing' alcoholics who
> are happy just the way they are.

	Me either...what is an equivalent dosage of MDMA?

> 
>> > 
>> > At the very least, there should be further research into the
>> > use of LSD and MDMA to treat alcoholism. Nothing else we've
>> > tried seems to work particularly well, any new approach
>> > should at least be studied, rather than pushed into a closet
>> > without giving it a chance. Personally I just think the
>> > government would rather have an alcoholic citizenry than
>> > an awakened psychedelic citizenry. Call me paranoid.
>> 
>> 	Your stance is that of an absolute -- hallucinogens are good, alcohol
>> is bad.  Some people will always be alcoholics, and some will recover.  The
>> reason nothing has worked so far is that it's mostly tied up with that halfwit
>> bastard gOD, who has nothing to do with chemicals and is merely another useless
>> addiction -- I have yet to see a program I'd trust an alcoholic in.
>> 	And some should stay alcoholic.
> 
> No. Hallucinogens (and empathogens) are what they are, alcohol is
> what it is. The premise of this whole discussion is treatment for
> alcoholics. Of course some people live happily as aloholics, maybe
> some even should stay alcoholic. But the starting point for all
> of this discussion was the idea of treatment: an alcoholic who wants
> to stop taking alcohol.
> 
> Hallucinogens, empathogens, and alcohol all have their place. In
> my opinion everyone should try all of them at least once, 
> preferably more, just to understand what they're about.

	Yes, and I still maintain that while that is true their use to 'cure'
alcoholism is nil, and experimentation with such is merely more meandering down
the wrong path of dealing with that illness.  

> 
> __________________________________________________________________________
> Jim Petersen         petersen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu          jp@darkstar.com
> 
>                 If mercy's in business I wish it for you-        
>              More than just ashes when your dreams come true.


"Biff"