From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Such An Objection Might Have Had Merit Before 1822, 'Kotinis.'
Date: 16 Apr 92 22:50:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: ddsw1.m0lbfI1-0003YPC


<1992Apr15.200141.28919@aeras.uucp>
kotinis@aeras.uucp (John Kotinis)

>>So, the Greek educational system is also in a shambles, 'Kotinis.'
>>History shows that within the last 170 years, Greeks played that 
>>game twice: They used Istanbul Patriarch Grigorios in 1822 to 
>>instigate the Morea rebellion that resulted in the massacres of 
>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>the Muslim people. Again, the Orthodox Patriarch Constantine V 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>invited the Russian Czar Nicholas II to invade the Ottoman Empire 
>>'in the name of Jesus,' and save his flock from Ottoman rule. 

>What kind of history is that?

Such an objection might have had merit before 1822, 'Kotinis.'

>In 1822 Greeks were fighting against Turks for the freedom of their
>country '''HASAN'''. Wake up.

Sigh. Even Rhigas Pheraios, for all his European veneer, showed that
deep in his soul he held a similar vision when he wrote his famous
war song, 'Thourios,' in which he urged his fellow Greeks to put
all of Turkiye to the torch, 'from Bosnia to Arabia.'[1]

[1] "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros
     Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu,
     Calif., 1978), p. 159.

>Is that the kind of history  that schools give in Turkey?

This is the kind of history that schools give in U.S.

>I don't want to believe that. 

Is that not the crux of my argument? Do you want to believe the 'Megali
Idea?'

>I do say so.
>Yoy didn't answer my question. Instead of giving a clear answer, you write
>too many lines for nothing.

This must be a phenomenon without a parallel anywhere in the world.
Cyprus has never been the possession of the government of Greece - not 
even for one day - in the history of the world. 

>How do these people in Cyprus, speak Greek?

In the same vein, how do these people in Germany and Western Thrace speak 
Turkish?

>>Source: "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros
>>         Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu,
>>         Calif., 1978).
>>
>>p. 161.
>>
>>In the words of Professor Skiotis, "With savage jubilance, [the Greeks]
>>sang the words 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.'
>>The Greeks were determined to achieve to 'Romaiko' in the only way they
>>knew how: through a war of religious extermination."

>You don't write when the greeks were singing that.
>They were singing that, when  Turks were occupying Greece
>from 14th to 18th century, and Greeks were fighting for their freedom. 
>What did you expect? To sing, "OH Turks, we love you, stay here
>don't leave us, we can't live without you"?
>Why don't you write the true and the whole story?

The 'Megali Idea' has nothing to do with 'freedom.' The 'Megali
Idea' aimed at nothing less than the recreation of the Byzantine
Empire at its apogee. In order to achieve it, Greece would have 
had to conquer the Ottoman Empire and exterminate its Muslim subjects.

>>to annex the island to Greece with the aid of the Greek army, Turkiye
>>intervened by using her legal right given by two international agreements. 
>>Turkiye did it for the frequently and conveniently forgotten people of the
>>island, Turkish Cypriots. For those Turkish Cypriots whose grandparents
>>have been living on the island since 1571. 

>You want to say that what Turkey is doing in Cyprus is legal?

You bet. In 1974, Turkiye stepped into Cyprus to preserve the lives
of the Turkish population there. This is nothing but simple historical 
fact. Unfortunately, the intervention was too late at least for some 
of the victims. Mass graves containing numerous bodies of women and 
children already showed what fate had been planned for a peaceful 
minority.

>Keeping away from their homes 200.000 Greek-Cypriots is legal?
>Cheap propaganda Hassan. 

The Greeks started massacring the Turkish population on Cyprus 
in 1974. How do we account for this phenomenon? Amnesia?

Turks are simply seeking guarantees that will preclude a
repeat performance by the fanatical cadres of the Greeks'
EOKA. If such assurances are not perfectly implemented,
there is every reason to expect that the local Greeks
will be misguided enough to perpetrate their past mistakes.

On such an occasion, the Turkish side may not find it
satisfactory to act with reluctance to go any further
than before, for it is unacceptable to remain always
defensive against cyclical vicious attacks.

Therefore it would be better to have a true federation
of two separate sections living in obligatory peace,
rather than another armed confrontation that would be
started by the Greeks and obligatorily but decisively
terminated by the Turks. 

Any folly that may be said to exist in the general
picture rests with Athens. In 1974, it was the despotic
colonels of the junta there who sponsored EOKA's belligerence.
They lost in Cyprus and eventually they lost at home
also.

The present Greek government is trying to tyrannize the
Turkish population in western Thrace by forbidding it
its ethnic and religious rights, which were established
through international treaties. One might be better
advised to remember that misadventures against Turkiye
do not serve Greece well.

An offer of membership in the European Common Market
as bait for concessions that may doom the Turks in
Cyprus to extinction is not a viable course for Greece
or her friends.

Neither Turkish lives nor Turkish honor has been placed
on the bidding block to be sold for commercial gain.

It is true that the Turkish sector in Cyprus is recognized
as a state by Turkiye only. Such recognition is ample
for the time being. The preferable hope for the future 
is the formation of a bona fide federation that will
afford equal and guaranteed chances of survival to both
sides.

>PS. I  stop here because it's no meaning to continue.                
>    Of course, I wait one more answer from ''''HASAN''''.
>    If you want to make your propaganda, you should write less
>    People get tired when  they read all your texts.
     
You people are funny. 

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet