From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Words Like Arrows
Date: 10 Sep 92 11:55:04 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
RAL> Message-ID: <9209091335.AA19089@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
   RAL> "<Ploni> was a man" and "<Ploni> was God" are mutually
   RAL> exclusive, irrespective of choice <Ploni>, according to Judaism
                            -BC> reply <BC-
I would 'agree' with your statement, were it qualified to: 'mainstream-
modern Judaism'; IF you'd agree with this when I say: 'yet, NOT
mutually exclusive according to some "forms" of Judaism.  While the
following two quotes, are only two of many, they DO illustrate that the
concept exists.  What I, (and the rest of the world :-), would be
interested in seeing, is... Will you admit that this concept exists?
If not, then why should we take anything you say seriously, if you
ignore facts when presented them?
                          -BC> comment 1 <BC-
While the shofar is being blown in the Synagogue on Rosh HaShannah
the following remarkably significant prayer is offered:
Merciful and gracious G-d, I have sinned against Thee, and done that
which is evil in Thy sight.   Have  mercy  on  me and forgive all my
transgressions, trespasses and sins, through  >Yehoshua<  the Prince
of His Presence.1
In most prayer books of the present day this prayer is omitted,  and
the following offered instead:
May it please Thee, O L-rd G-d, and the G-d of our fathers, that Thou
mayest  accept  it  as the meditation through Elijah and Joshua,  the
Prince of the Presence,  the  Prince Metatron and that Thou mayest be
filled with mercy towards us. Blessed art Thou, O L-rd Who art merciful
     The angel Metatron, according to Jewish theology, was he who
discoursed with Moses[2] and the angel in whom G-d placed His Name. The
following from the Zohar is of interest in this case:
There is a man, if a Man He is, Who is an Angel.This Angel is Metatron,
the Keeper of Israel; He is a man in the image of the Holy One, blessed
be He, Who is an Emanation from Him [from G-d]; yea,  He [the Metatron]
is Jehovah.  Of Him cannot be said,  He is created, formed or made; but
He is the Emanation from G-d.3
1.Salvation:don't have the referrance handy to look it up for myself as
to  the  exact form  of  the  word used...seems to be Joshua.  from the
Prayer Book For The New Year (1913). Rev.Dr.A.Th.Phillips, page 100.
2.Exodus 3:2-15
3.Zohar, chapter 67, page 130. / Amsterdam Version
                             -BC> comment 2 <BC-
It is interesting to note, (as in comment 1 above), that the ancient
understanding of the Tzimtzim, was one of a 'part' of G-d, {"...Who is
an Emanation from Him..."}, and considered G-d, but never thought of as
the totality of Elohim/G-d.  This idea is expressed somewhat as well in
the Aramaic understanding of the Memra-[along with the dual meaning of
the Hebrew word Davar/Word], - this is treated quite fully in
Edershiem's: The Life And Times Of Jesus The Messiah.  Let's look at a
couple of other Judaic statements:
"He has no difficulty as the Jewish Encyclopedia also says, (Vol.12,
page 261): 'The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its
fundamental work,  was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity,
since by its speculations regarding  the  Father,  the Son,  and the
Spirit,  it evolved a new trinity....'"   As the Zohar says: How can
three be one?  Are they verily One because we call them One? How can
three be One,  can only be known through the revelation of  the Holy
Spirit-(Zohar, vol.2.p,43, versa,p.22) / Forward in The Great Mystery,
How Can Three Be One? by Rabbi Tzvi Nassi/Hirsch Prinz.
     Now, I will ask it one more time..., Do you, Robert Levene, agree
     that this idea exists in certain "forms" of Judaism?  BTW..., Have
     you ever heard of the 20th cent. Chassidic Tri-Unity movement of
     Dr. Paul Levertoff - (who was one of the origional translators of
     the Zohar into English)?
... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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