From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Date: 15 Apr 92 16:43:35 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: SPSS Inc.

kevin@taronga.taronga.com (Kevin Brown) writes:

>In article <adams.703343481@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>kevin@taronga.taronga.com (Kevin Brown) writes:
>>
>>>In article <adams.703284892@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>>>kevin@taronga.taronga.com (Kevin Brown) writes:
>>
>>>Many Christians *do* seem to limit, in their minds, what God can do.  I
>>>find it quite strange.
>>Me too.  Since God is limitless, He may do anything He choses.  And any
>>Christian who complains may expect to get exactly the same response that
>>Job did.

>Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that.  There exists suffering
>in the world that results from the construction of the universe.  But
>there also exists joy in the world that results from exactly the same
>thing.

>A *lot* of Christians, and members of other religions as well, see their
>God as being responsible for the natural good while *not* being responsible
>for the natural evil.  This, of course, is an inconsistent stance to take.
>You can't be the creator of the universe and be responsible for only *one*
>natural aspect of your creation.  As the creator of the universe, you would
>be responsible for *all* such aspects.

The basic problem that Christians are confronted with is as follows:

  1. God is all powerful
  2. God is all good
  3. Evil truly exists

The explaination of this has occupied theolgians for ages!  Augustine
developed the 'Free Will' defense of God.  

>>>>As for non-believers, there are a number of views among Christian
>>>>theologians past and present.  Some believed that God continues to work on
>>>>souls of those who have died, so that in the end, all souls are saved.
>>>>Ireneaus wrote along these lines.  In his theology, every single soul is
>>>>saved.  That would include Hitler, Ted Bundy, etc.
>>>Interesting viewpoint, that.  Quite laid back, I must say.  :-)
>>No kidding.  Augustine basically won this arguement...Ireneaus didn't
>>believe in `perfect' creation, either.  Humans were created imperfect, and
>>grow to be more perfect.  This continues after physical death.  Augustine
>>was big on original sin, etc.

>...and original sin "won".  Figures.
Based of course on taking Genesis literally.  If Genesis is taken more as
allegory and metaphor, then the above mentioned 'defense' of God becomes
unnecessary.  For if we were created imprefect so that we could grow and
learn, it is not our fault that we fail.  The problem with Ireneus is also
that is assigns the blame for evil to God.  Not something that people do
easily.  Ireneus proposed that though we 'blamed' God, we are still to
blame for failing to live as God asks us.  He had a concept of heaven that
more or less defined levels of heaven - the better you did, the closer you
were to God...but you get lots of chances, including after death...

>>>But it does make you wonder: if everyone is saved like that, then what's
>>>there to worry about?  Just do your best and the rest is taken care of.
>>Yep.  One of the reasons I think Ireneus lost the arguement - the Church
>>would have had no authority over men....
>Sounds about right to me.
I'm expecting flame city from a certain segment of the t.r.m community
here!

>>>Definitely not a philosophy that someone with a fundamentalist attitude
>>>would agree with (it's too laid back :-)  ).
>>Ireneus basic premise, if I recall correctly, was that a perfectly good
>>God could never condemn a soul permanantly to Hell.

>That's *not* a premise, if you ask me.  That's a logical conclusion!
>Based, of course, on the common usage of the word "good".  Augustine
>apparently used a twisted definition of "good" to describe his God...
One of the problems with 'evil' is how it is defined.  Before the Holocost,
the general concept of 'evil' was natural evil, thus the example of great
evil was the Lisbon Earthquake.  Nature contained evil - which came about when
Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden (Augustine).  Thus again, it was
'Free Will' (or orignial sin) which brought it into the world.  Similiarly,
now that the great evil is assigned to Hitler/Communits/etc, it is because
'orignal sin' or 'free will' allowed evil into the world.

The question for those who hold free will to be correct is how a perfectly
good God could create evil...for since Adam and Eve were God's creation, he
created at least a propensity for evil....

Of course, this was just covered in another thread...I have my own
opinions, which actually fit somewhere between Ireneus and Augustine...

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc