From: murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Logic, Honesty and Counselling (was Re: NLP and what the .... )
Date: 29 Sep 92 11:57:16 GMT
	<1992Sep28.042946.3437@ucc.su.OZ.AU>
	<1992Sep28.142241.19396@philabs.philips.com>
Organization: Applications Software II, MITEL Corporation, Kanata, Ontario,
	Canada
In-reply-to: ehf@philabs.philips.com's message of 28 Sep 92 14:22:41 GMT

The story so far ...

In article <1992Sep28.142241.19396@philabs.philips.com> ehf@philabs.philips.com (Eberhard Fisch) writes:
   In article <1992Sep28.042946.3437@ucc.su.OZ.AU>, ben@archsci.arch.su.oz.au (Ben Colbron) writes:
   |> In article <1992Sep14.173929.14613@spectra.com>, ohumukin@spectra.com (Kawika Ohumukini) writes:
   |> |> Rule #1 in NLP is that nothing is true or real.  
   |> 
   |> In saying that nothing is true you must either claim that *that*
   |> proposition ('nothing is true') is itself true, and if so, it 
   |> contradicts the original claim, or you must admit that the
   |> proposition 'nothing is true' is not itself true.

   1) Dont confuse a model with that which is being modeled. 
   2) Judge a model by how well it gets you the results you're after.

   For example, in the NLP technique of 5 step reframing, NLP practitioners think of
   the unconscious mind as being composed of parts with specific positive goals
   (maybe conflicting goals) and attempt to fascilitate negotiations between these 
   "parts". What is considered important is whether this technique is useful in 
   helping people to achieve the kind of personal changes they want and not whether
   this is "really" how the human brain works. 

If we are going to discuss logic here, and especially if we can include
honesty about our own logic in counselling, we should contrast the NLP
approach, which I might paraphrase as "Let's suspend judgement of true
or false and assume for the moment your brain is partitioned", with the
traditional talk-therapy approach, "You _must_ believe me: your brain is
damaged and split into Multiple Personalities; this abnormality demands
proper (i.e.  my) treatment".

There are going to be some grey areas here, but a scan of ASAR or the
MTS/EUP lists show a lot of stories where supposed MPD's did not accept
the diagnosis until after much 'counselling' where trusting the
counsellor's word is _implicit_ and _required_.  Where is the logic in
that?  Where are the studies showing the firm existance of even one case
of Single Personality?  Where is the logic there?  It reminds me (albeit
obtusely) of Sun Ra's statement, "How can you have a Department of
Justice that only goes out looking for Guilty people?"

At least Morita's approach was (and continues to be) open, frank and
honest: "Do not believe me, do not trust my judgement, my theory or my
conjectures. Just _try_ the exercises and tell me what you notice."  In
Japan, they often won't tell the client the outcome for fear of tainting
the experiment and detracting from the power of 'taiken', the knowledge
gained directly from experience.

 "But what if there _were_ such things as past lives?"

	"Close your eyes.  Notice how dark it becomes. Open your eyes.
	 What do you see?"

Can just the application of Morita and Naikan therapy be called a
double-blind experiment? The therapist does not know what the client
actually does or believes or trusts, and only advises on the method to
be used, sampling the resulting contents; for minor life problems, which
routinely earn a client a decade or two of traditional therapy stigma,
instructions can be given by mail or over the telephone, further
distancing the technique from the charisma of the practitioner.  The
client does not know the outcome, only the therapist's instructions and
a vain hope of alleviating their suffering.  Could this be why
psychiatric and counselling journals can abound with articles on the
"quiet therapies" while NLP is quietly ignored?

--
Gary Lawrence Murphy/murphyg@software.mitel.com/mitel!software!murphyg@uunet.ca
 Mitel Corp - 350 Legget Drive, Kanata, Ontario, Canada - (613) 592-2122 x3709
         "If you feel no shyness around the person you love,
            then you are probably not in love." --- Morita
Newsgroups: sci.psychology