From: nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel)
Subject: Re: Women in engineering ( help ..)
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:32:02 GMT

In article <fknn_nr@lynx.unm.edu> bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician) writes:
>In article <16858F49F.FM010201@ysub.ysu.edu> FM010201@ysub.ysu.edu writes:
>>1. nature: women have different cognitive abilities than men and do not have mu
>>           ch interest in men's pursuit of dominating nature. As most of the en
>>           gineering is. More right brain with thicker connection between left
>>           and right brain. (corpus colossum)
>
>Question:  Why is the pursuit of science/engineering/mathematics
>considered to be a non-creative act?  I am confused over the phrase,
>"dominating nature," in reference to engineering and why it is called
>"men's" pursuit (that is, I consider the pursuit of these things to be
>without a gender, even if one gender is more predominant due to the
>(debatable) reason of biology.)
>
First off, I think the common perception among people who aren't involved
in math/science/engineering fields *is* that they aren't creative.  I don't
agree with the perception, but I hear it from my artsier friends all the time.

As for the "dominating nature" I do think that's to some extent true of
engineering.  It's also true of pretty much everything else people do, though -
it's our ability to manipulate our environment that distinguishes us from
animals.  (Although some cats I've known are quite remarkable at being able
to manipulate their environments by manipulating the humans around them!)

There's a theory (and not one I agree with) that holds women as being
more in touch with nature.  In that context, the connection to engineering
as masculine seems clear.  The problem is that the theory is not particularly
provable or disprovable, so is of questionable utility.  It's also clearly
a relatively recent theory - industrial revolution or later.  In agricultural
societies, it's clear that neither sex has a monopoly on manipulating
nature.  

Finally, it might also be worth noting that the right brain / left brain
theory has been discredited.  Not that there isn't any distinction in function
but it's less clear than some popular accounts have made it seem.  
Even if it were true, it would give women an advantage in many fields of
engineering where the ability to see connections between seemingly disparate
pieces of information is important.  The "holistic" sort of thinking that
the sociobiologists consider feminine is essential to success in system
dynamics, for example, and I've known both men and women who excelled in it.

>>2.Nurture: women are discouraged , verbally or non verbally to pursue abstract
>>           topics such as math, science and engineering. Feminist perspective.
>
>Question:  Why is science/engineering considered abstract (math I can
>easily see as being abstract, but I see nothing abstract about
>designing a bridge)?

I don't see engineering as abstract, but engineering is often regarded as
a subset of math by nonengineers.  Certainly, the most common reason for
women to keep out of several fields is inadequate math background.  I've
been involved for a while now with an organization called Open Options, which
tries to persuade high school children to continue studying math and science.
It's astonishing how few of them (boys, as well as girls) don't realize
that you need math to pursue their careers.  A common example is the child
who is interested in psychology and doesn't realize that statistics will be
required in college.  So if women are discouraged from math, they won't be
able to become engineers, etc..

I question abstraction as the issue.  To me, something like history or
psychology is much more abstract - you can never really *know* why something
happened the way it did.  While science is neat.  You can test your guesses
and really see what happens.  (This may explain why I became a mechanical
engineer, not a theoretical physicist!)

I do see that girls are often discouraged away from math.  I've heard many
girls tell me that if they had trouble with math they were told it wasn't
important.  It happens more the higher the education level, too.  A friend of
mine from high school had a tough time with calculus in college.  Her advisor
suggested she stay away from math classes, despite her desire to become
a physician.  She eventually got discouraged enough that she majored in 
English and went to law school (though she now works in publishing, not law, 
but that's another matter).

Miriam Nadel

Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men,alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion