HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: JHARTLEY@cmsa.gmr.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: washington post on pe
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:07:25 GMT
Organization: GM Research Labs

In article <1992Sep3.1305.194@channel1>
lois.laulicht@channel1.com (lois laulicht) writes:
>Those who have threatened to go fishing in Nov...please don't!
>Let's hope we have a candidate we can vote for.

I trust you don't mean Perot.  "Burn me once, shame on you.
                                Burn me twice, shame on me."

I hope Perot comes back just for the humor and spectacle of it.
But for the sake of the country, we don't need this egomaniac
back to stomp on the little people.  Having seen him in action
at GM, I can guarantee you, he'll intrude again in whatever way
suits Him, everyone else be damned.  And I must warn you
that you will one day look back on your "Perot years" (days?)
with regret.
From: "lois laulicht" <lois.laulicht@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.perot
Subject: washington post on pe
Date: 3 Sep 92 06:59:09 EST
Reply-To: "lois laulicht" <lois.laulicht@channel1.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Channel 1 Communications


RH>Along the same lines of "Is he in, or is he out?" comes this recent
RH>Washington Post article, whose highlights include:

RH>  - "Perot aides confirmed that the Texas billionaire is continuing to
RH>     finance petition drives that will place him on the ballot in all 50
RH>     states."

Those who have threatened to go fishing in Nov...please don't!

Let's hope we have a candidate we can vote for.

-lois
---
  DeLuxe/386 1.25 #10184  Perot petitioners hang together to keep 'em honest
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky alt.politics.perot:1376 alt.politics.elections:12042 alt.politics.bush:3619 alt.politics.clinton:3617 talk.politics.misc:42986
From: fay@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.politics.perot
Subject: Consitution?
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:12:45 -0500
Summary: amend
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Remember how Quayle said that Perot would get rid of the constitution.

How about ammending it, with issues like
FLAG BURNING
ABORTION
BALANCED BUDGET
TERM LIMITS

and of course, who cares what your state's Supreme court says about requiring
the Pledge of Allegiance (the issue centered around forcing people to say three
simple letters: G-O-D)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.misc
From: tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu (tom)
Subject: Re: PETITIONING WORK TO BE DONE - 39 LIBERTARIAN STATES
Organization: The Lab Rats
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:09:22 GMT

In article <GOLDM.92Aug27151151@jonah.rpi.edu> goldm@rpi.edu (Mitchell E. Gold) writes:

}How many petition signatures have been collected in total for the LP? Is it
}over 100,000?

it's well over 100,000 -- florida (60,312) and north carolina (43,601)
alone required over 100,000 valid signatures. considering the rest of
the states we had to petition in and the need to get about 140% of
the requirement to be sure you have enough we probably collected between
500,000 and 1 million signatures this year. not only that but some
states _charge_ us up to $2.00 _per signature_ to check that they are
valid!
-- 
tom@udel.edu                                        ...!{gateway}!udel!tom
tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu           UDel: School of Life and Health Sciences

"Themes were useless; Destiny was here, and the foot pedals were bleeding."
From: v113mg59@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Ronald T Coslick Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: patents and copyrights
Date: 30 Aug 92 21:21:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>>... the "intellectual property rights"
>>are not rights at all, in fact, "intellectual property" isn't property either.
> 
>>...let it be known, there are *some* libertarians who are quite thoroughly
>>opposed to government granted monopolies, even when said monopolies pad
>>said libertarians paychecks ...
> 
>Intellectual property rights are an incredibly interesting issue for
>the libertarian philosophy, and I'm surprized there isn't more discussion
>of them. 

Sorry, I haven't been with this thread since the beginning, so 
I'm unclear as to what a libertarian's problem with intellectual 
property would be.  I'm still trying to get an overall grip on 
the libertarian philosophy, so maybe one of you with more 
experience could sum it up in a few lines for the rest of us.

_My_ understanding is that "property" is a bundle of legal rights 
which allows you to exclude the rest of the world from 
possessing, using, etc. that which is the object of the property 
right.  In that sense patents are certainly property.  

To me it seems to be merely a matter of personal philosophy as to 
which things should not be given such protection.  Most would 
agree that one's body is one's own property.  Fewer would agree 
that property rights should extend to land and its improvements 
and to chattels.  Further down the line would be property rights 
for intellectual creations.  The crux of the matter is whether 
you believe that absolute property rights should protect merely 
the person, or if it should be extended to commercial interests 
as well.

After reading alt.privacy lately, I'm beginning to think that 
maybe it's time to begin constructing property rights for the 
personal data that so many companies are exchanging behind our 
backs.  Let's face it, your personal history is inherently your 
own, and someone else is making a profit by selling it, which I 
consider an invasion of privacy.  Does this fit libertarian 
idealogy?

================
RoN
v113mg59@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
From: rdubbs@cs.tamu.edu (Roger B. Dubbs III)
Subject: Re: Why waste your vote?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 00:23:22 GMT

Congratulations on a well-written persuasive essay.  I would however
like a bit more explanation on one point.

In article <Aug.24.21.55.59.1992.22903@foglet.rutgers.edu> josh@foglet.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) writes:
>So why does anybody vote in the first place?  After all, even if I
>knew that one of the candidates would definitely give me one million
>dollars if he were elected, it would only be worth one dollar for me
>to vote for him.  More to the point, if I knew that one candidate
>would definitely steal one million dollars from me if elected, it
>would only be worth one dollar for me to vote against him, and that
>only if the election were a dead heat.  

Seems like my vote is worth $1M to me.  Especially if it is a dead heat.
I just don't follow your $'s analogy.  Perhaps it is worth only $1 to
the candidate?  Please explain.

>[. . .]
>So the tighter the vote, the greater chance your vote will decide
>the election.  But in that case, *each Libertarian vote* has the
>same chance of being that election-deciding vote.  So your chance
>of expressing yourself in a way that will really be heard is 
>magnified by the total number of Libertarian votes!

But if I really do prefer one of the MPC's over the other, and he lost
because I voted for the LP, wouldn't I be worse off?  
Example:
	Silly Party: 1,000 votes
      Sensible Party: 1,001 votes
      Slightly Silly Party: 2
(Any monty python fans out there? ;)

In this case, had my slightly silly friend and I voted for the silly
party, the silly party (which we prefer) might have won.  The basic
trouble is that, even though I affected the election, I have not
affected the OUTCOME of the election in the direction I wanted.  
If neither candidate troubles you (or they are equally bad) then a vote
for the third party does make sense.  I am unsure the same is true if
there is a lesser evil.

Comments?

/Roger
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.individualism
From: dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood)
Subject: Rally in San Francisco
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Distribution: ca
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 06:27:17 GMT


When:  Noon, Thursday September 17

Where:  Justin Herman Plaza, San Francisco

What:  Speech by Andre Marrou, preceded by live music and moderated by local
comedian Michael Meehan as master of ceremonies.  Senate candidates June
Genis and Richard Boddie and local candidates will be present at literature
tables.

Advertising: by posters in small businesses surrounding the plaza, flyers
passed out at lunch time on Wednesday and at subway exits Wed-Thur mornings.
 A press release will be issued on Wednesday.  The rally will also be
announced on two radio talk shows where Marrou will appear Wednesday and
Thursday.

Logistics:  Event staffed by volunteers from Bay Area LP.  Sound system
rented; professional sound man will be available to work sound board.
Electric power is avialable.  Full clean-up to be done by volunteers.
Meeting of volunteers on Tuesday 9/15 to organize setup and cleanup.  Truck
to be borrowed or rented to transport materials.

Contact:  John Whisman 415-905-6397.
-- 
D Anton Sherwood *\\* dasher@well.sf.ca.us *\\* +1 415 664 2229
Libertarian candidate for California Assembly, 12th district
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
From: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
Subject: Re: Fully Informed Jury Association (Pamphlet)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 11:07:29 GMT


As long as this topic has been brought up again, I have a question
which has been bothering me.  I am essentially sympathetic to
the FIJA movement, but I have one *major* reservation:  What
is the remedy if a jury decides that it shouldn't be a crime for
white people to lynch niggers?  How does the state then carry out
its responsibility to protect the individual rights of its black
citizens?
From: gliesche@lonestar.utsa.edu (Jules D. Gliesche)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Libernet
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:54:25 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio

Folks;

Does anyone know where Libernet has gone? I haven't received anything from
them in about 3 weeks. Server dead? Interest dead? Our sysop playing a
nasty trick on me?

Thanks,
Jules
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.misc
From: mlee@esd.dl.nec.com (Michael Lee)
Subject: REPUBLICRAT/DEMOPUBLICAN TAX SUBSIDY
Organization: NEC America, Engineering & Support
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:36:27 GMT


Originally posted by:
Brooke King brooke@ingr.com uunet!ingr!brooke H +1 (505) 292-6445

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Friday's (August 21, 1992) Alamogordo Daily News there was an
AP graphic by Alan Baseden with figures from the FEC.  It
categorized Democratic and Republican convention financing in
millions.

                         Dem     GOP

Private Donations        6.5     4.3

Municipal Taxes         21.1     5.7

Federal Government      11.0    11.0

TOTAL                   38.6    21.0

Something I found most intriguing is that "Taxes" was not used in
reference to the Federal Government, perhaps in deference to the
subterfuge of the $1 check off on federal income tax forms, but
we all know it is funded from taxes.

I post this to share the information.  I am also requesting
funding figures for the LP convention for a small, local
(Albuquerque), freedom-oriented newsweekly (ABQ Free Press) which
is curious to compare the LP total.  I think it's a fair
assumption that it was all donated and not taxed.  If I get the
answer to the newsweekly by close of business Tuesday, it will
likely be in this week's edition.

-- 

Brooke King brooke@ingr.com uunet!ingr!brooke H +1 (505) 292-6445
From: atfurman@cup.portal.com (A T Furman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Communitarianism
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 17:12:31 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

>If you haven't heard about it, check out articles in the Village 
>Voice ("The Communitarian Manifesto," Aug. 18) and Utne Reader 
>("Communitarian Manifesto," July/Aug '92).  

Virginia Postrel covered this subject in her brilliant essay, "The
Green Road to Serfdom", which appeared in Reason magazine, April
1990.  It is reprinted in _The REASON Environmental Reader_, $5,
available from the Reason Foundation, 3415 Sepulveda Blvd Suite 400,
Los Angeles, CA 90034.

>Communitarians feel that many of our nation's problems are the  
>result of an overemphasis on individual rights which has lead to 
>selfish and destructive behavior.

Perhaps they can recycle some rhetoric from the past.

    "It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to
    realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with
    the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual
    ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a
    whole...that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will
    are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an
    individual...

    "This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego
    to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise
    for every truly human culture..."

                                -- Adolf Hitler
                                   October 7, 1933


    Alan T. Furman         | VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!  Marrou/Lord in 92!!
---------------------------+----------------------------------------
  atfurman@cup.portal.sig  |   (800)682-1776 for more information
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.individualism
From: greens@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Captain Finagle)
Subject: Re: Libertarianism, Communitarianism, and Realignment (was Re: Communit..)
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:43:00 GMT

Reading about the Communitarians chilled me.  Theirs is the kind of thinking
I would devote my life to opposing.  Anyone advocating the subjugation (sp?)
of the individual to the group scares the bejeezus out of me.  On a "know
your enemy" slant, does anybody know of anything published by Mr. Lasch I
could check out?


Shawn Green
greens@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.individualism
From: yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: Libertarianism, Communitarianism, and Realignment (was Re: Communit..)
Organization: University of Rochester
	<BtpInp.Gy5@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 29 Aug 92 01:20:17

In article <BtpInp.Gy5@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> greens@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Captain Finagle) writes:

>Reading about the Communitarians chilled me.  Theirs is the kind of thinking
>I would devote my life to opposing.  Anyone advocating the subjugation (sp?)
>of the individual to the group scares the bejeezus out of me.  On a "know
>your enemy" slant, does anybody know of anything published by Mr. Lasch I
>could check out?

His most recent book -- The True and Only Heaven: Progress and Its
Critics -- would probably be the most topical.  I've skimmed it, and
it's on my list of things to read -- I rarely find books where I
disagree with absolutely everything the author says, but from I've
seen so far, this one qualifies.  He mentions the libertarian movement
in passing, as the most extreme example of individualist politics, but
seems to spend most of his time attacking the "individualism" in
mainstream American politics.  (He also manages to take potshots at
everything from the space colonization movement to Whole Earth
Review).

He's also written a couple other books, including The Minimal Self and
The Culture of Narcissism.  I haven't read either, but if the titles
are any clue...
From: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Marrou and Avatar?
Date: 30 Aug 92 23:48:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Aug30.234839.6620
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)



I don't know how much truth there is in what follows; maybe
someone here can enlighten me.

A friend of mine who is a counselor specializing in rehab and
readjustment of people who have been psychologically terrorized
and conditioned by various "cults", such as the Moonies.  She
recently told me that a colleague has passed on to her a brochure
for a group called Avatar.

She is not sure whether Avatar fits into the definition of the
cult that is commonly used in her professional community; it is
hard to tell from just one brochure.  However, she says that a
lot of the claims made in the brochure, the language used, the
principles espoused, make it sound like one.

Included in the brochure is a list of notable public figures who 
have gone through this group's training, and Andre Marrou is
listed as having attained the "highest degree of enlightenment".

My friend finds this potentially disturbing, and so do I...if it
is true.  Does anyone know what sort of an organization Avatar is?
Does anyone know if Andre Marrou is associated with them?  As I 
say, neither I nor my friend are convinced, as yet, that this is
a dangerous, mind-control type of group.  She notes that it does
not appear among the 3,000 such groups listed in her professional
references, so it must be a fairly new group if it does, in fact,
fall in this category.

Anyone have any info?
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
From: rab@well.sf.ca.us (Bob Bickford)
Subject: Re: Fully Informed Jury Association (Pamphlet)
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:53:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.110729.16383@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>,
 bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes:
>
>As long as this topic has been brought up again, I have a question
>which has been bothering me.  I am essentially sympathetic to
>the FIJA movement, but I have one *major* reservation:  What
>is the remedy if a jury decides that it shouldn't be a crime for
>white people to lynch niggers?  How does the state then carry out
>its responsibility to protect the individual rights of its black
>citizens?

Change of venue?  Public education on the virtues of not being
racist pigs?  Federal prosecutions for civil rights violations?

Maybe there are some others.
--
  Robert Bickford        /-------------------------------------\
  rab@well.sf.ca.us      | Don't Blame Me: I Voted Libertarian |
                         \-------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections.talk.politics.misc
From: mlee@esd.dl.nec.com (Michael Lee)
Subject: Re: Marrou and Avatar?
Organization: NEC America, Engineering & Support
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:44:02 GMT

From article <Btx8nF.29s@acsu.buffalo.edu>, by sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Philandros):
>
> 	Yes.  This is absolute nonsense.  I would be willing to bet
> money that "Avatar" doesn't exist.  It is probably the product of
> people who want to discredit Andre.  This sort of thing has happened
> before.  The culprits could be other third party members, LaRouchies,
> Objectivists, or others.
>
> 	Please, don't believe anything that can't be substantiated.
>
>
> Mark Sulkowski

Avatar does exist.  It is a "new age" pop psychology organization devoted
to self-responsibility.

Mary Ruart, LP candidate for Vice president nomination last year,
(she lost to Nancy Lord) recommended it to me.  I just got a brochure.

I do not know if Andre is associated or not, but it seems pretty harmless.

In fact, since it encourages the Libertarian value of taking responsibility
for yourself, I think it may be helpful.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
It is often stated (and certainly true) that the poor have no right
to the wealth of the rich.  It is seldom stated (but equally true)
that the rich have no right to the wealth of the poor.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I prefer a small government which may permit some evil to
a large government which promotes evil at my expense.
---------------------------------------------------------

Michael Lee
mlee@esd.dl.nec.com
214-518-3807
From: sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Fully Informed Jury Association (Pamphlet)
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:36:30 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1992Sep1.110729.16383@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes:
>
>As long as this topic has been brought up again, I have a question
>which has been bothering me.  I am essentially sympathetic to
>the FIJA movement, but I have one *major* reservation:  What
>is the remedy if a jury decides that it shouldn't be a crime for
>white people to lynch niggers?  How does the state then carry out
>its responsibility to protect the individual rights of its black
>citizens?

Easy.  You give black people the right to own guns.  Then when they
blow away a few klansman who were trying to lynch them, they are the ones
who get off.
From: tsf@CS.CMU.EDU (Timothy Freeman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Closing Bookstores?
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:39:50 GMT
Distribution: pa
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Originator: tsf@U.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU

From Clarinet I hear that Attorney General Preate has closed some gay
bookstores in PA because they violate state law.  Does anyone
know which state law?  This sounds like an opportunity for another
press release, although I don't have the enthusiasm to write it
myself.
--
Tim Freeman <tsf@cs.cmu.edu>    CompuServe ID 71045,2267 checked occasionally.
When they took the fourth amendment, I was silent because I don't deal drugs.
When they took the sixth amendment, I kept quiet because I know I'm innocent.
When they took the second amendment, I said nothing because I don't own a gun.
Now they've come for the first amendment, and I can't say anything at all.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
From: atfurman@cup.portal.com (A T Furman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Ohio Signatures to get Libertarians on ballot
Date: Wed,  2 Sep 92 12:04:19 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa

>Ok, can anybody tell me who to get in touch with about getting some
>signatures collected for the Libertarian party? I saw that sigs are
>still needed for Ohio and given that I am at Oberlin College, and
>nobody is collecting signatures here it is probably worthwhile...
>--
>Retch The Grate aka Cormac Russell   Amiga, The Computer for The Creative Mind
>                      rcormac@occs.cs.oberlin.edu           
>(minimalist sig)

It is my understanding that signature-gathering in Ohio is now over.  The
deadline has passed, and all the signatures have been turned over to
the bureaucrats for validation.  Ohio is one of the 12 jurisdictions
where Marrou has not yet received word on whether the signatures meet
the requirements, but the numbers (safety margin over the requirement)
look good.

The action now is money.  Marrou has already gotten more coverage in
The Media than all prior LP candidates COMBINED, but there is a strong
consensus that running network TV spots is *essential* to give the
ticket an air of "legitimacy" and "seriousness"...and those spots are
bloody expensive.

If you're game, the place to send those wads of cash is:

           Marrou/Lord Campaign
           1528 Pennsylvania Avenue SE
           Washington, DC 20003


    Alan T. Furman         | VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!  Marrou/Lord in 92!!
---------------------------+----------------------------------------
  atfurman@cup.portal.sig  |   (800)682-1776 for more information
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou