Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems

I am so angry at Phillip Nikolayev that I was tempted
to come in and engage in all sorts of name calling
in defending myself.  But I really know nothing
about Mr. N., so I do not want to cast
general aspersions against him.  An e-mail exchange
has revealed to me more specifics of his "charge"
against me, and I wish to make a public defense.

Apparently Mr. Nikolayev thinks I plagiarized
a gesture made by Joe Green.  Note that
he apparently is not accusing me of plagiarizing the IDEA
but the style and the gesture.
As I recall, Joe's discussion of copyrights
embodied the idea of a gift economy.  Joe
was concerned at the commodification of poetry,
and he suggested that people take and use his
poetry as his gesture to fight the commodification
that is embodied in the idea of the copyright.
As I recall that was Joe's intent in his gesture,
which apparently was never posted as a poem.
I do recall that discussion, and if I recall
Joe's gesture incorrectly, then I would like
to see evidence of this as I do not have the
archives of this discussion.

My ideas about copyrights predate my knowledge
of Joe Green's existence, and I have used the idea
a number of times in answering questions about
copyrights before I ever knew Joe.  Ms. Kateri
asked this question here and in alt.callahans,
and I used these ideas in answering her.  I do not
recall if this case was before Joe or not, and I do not know
if she recalls, but I know I did address this issue
before I ever heard of Mr. Green, and  it is apparently 
irrelevant, since it is not the idea that Mr. N. is accusing me of
plagiarizing.  

Nevertheless, my gesture is is entirely different from
Joe's, although I will not deny that I am stylistically influenced
by Joe to some degree.  I was in no way suggesting that my poem
was great or that I even wanted anyone to steal it or
any other poem I write.  I was making the statement that
I consider the copyrighting of amateur poetry in this group rather absurd, 
given that it is not bloody likely that it is going to 
be stolen anyway.  In fact, attaching the copyright is a little
pompous.  This gesture is entirely different from that made
by Joe Green to my recollection.  Yes, they have in common a contempt 
for copyrights, but the stated basis for the contempt is completely different,
and the message contained in the gesture is completely different.
My idea predates Joe Green, and it came from my conversations with 
the poetess Sandra Brown.  Yes, I probably borrowed the idea from her 
to use in this poem, but as far as I know she did not consider it a
 poetic idea in and of itself, so my using it in a poetic gesture could 
hardly be considered plagiarism, and I am sure that almost all 
reasonable people will agree with that.
I doubt that we all credit the conversations and tv shows and books
etc. etc. that create basic ideas in our heads that we later use
in art.  But again, apparently the idea itself is not really what 
offends Mr. N.

My gesture may be rather similar to Joe's.  Perhaps it is
stylistically influenced by Joe, but even that assertion
is pretty flimsy, since my confrontational style predates
Mr. Green as well, and, in fact, it is only recently that
I have made any use at all of the O'Toole identity that Joe WANTED
people to utilize for precisely the reason that I did
NOT want to be stylistically subjugated to Joe Green.
Perhaps some long-timers here recall the poem, _Lowcul
Yowcul Luzes Luv_, in which I make a rather similar gesture
against self-pitying love-loss poems.  No, my confrontational
poetic gestures predate my interaction with Joe by a long time.
Still, I love Joe.  He has had a great influence on my
life, and he certainly has influenced my prose and poetry.
I will always consider Joe to be a friend even though
I do not agree with him on many things and do not entirely
approve of his extremely antagonistic artistic style.  But
I acknowledge the influence of someone who affected
my artistic development.  I see no problem with that,
as all artists have influences, and often these lead
to stylistic mimicry in the early stages of work.
In my case, despite the influence, I NEVER mimic
Joe Green in my poetry and poetic gestures, although
I do sort of mimic the prose style in my sparring
with Don Z.
 
But, even HAD I completely emulated Joe in the stylistic
gesture (which I did not), it would hardly matter, since
it is rather absurd to suggest that artists that emulate 
a master are engaging in plagiarism.  My gesture was
quite different from Joe's, and the stylistic similarity,
which is entirely unintentional on my part (even if it
does exist), is hardly grounds for the accusation of plagiarism, 
since I borrowed neither the ideas or the rhetorical intent 
from Mr. Green.

I take back my request for Joe to defend me, since I do
not really want to see Mr. N. publicly "savaged".
This need to defend myself against a very offensive and groundless
charge of ethical misconduct is quite distressing, and
it is difficult to express how angry I am.  I am a bit
at a loss to understand Phillip's motives.  Perhaps
it is just misunderstanding.  Probably not.  The nature
of the e-mail suggests to me that perhaps Mr. N.
simply has an intense personal dislike for me.
It may well be based on a dislike of Joe Green and
all who have been influenced by him for all I know.

He clearly has utter contempt for the poem, which he considers
not to be a poem at all.  Actually, the wretchedness of
the poem was meant to reinforce the irony I was trying to
create in the rhetorical gesture, and while Mr. N. will
assert that it is nothing but prose and meaningless repetition,
I will counter that the repetition served the INTENDED poetic
purpose of creating a repeating, but slightly varied
rhythm.

Is it a poem?
I think so.

Is it a good poem?
Probably not.  Why?  Well, first of all I did not intend it
to be a good poem, and second, I am really not all that good
a poet.

Part of the reason that I do not want to attack Mr. N. is that
I do have standards for poetry, and I do not grant that any poem that is
written is a good poem.  It is possible that Mr. N. and I
would even agree on poetic standards.  I cannot say, since
I know nothing about him.

Am I a great poet?
Obviously not, but I do have standards.  I do not always live up
to them, but I do yearn to write good poetry.  I do think that
I am at least as good as the average in this forum, but that 
is my just my opinion.  I do know that I do not knowingly steal
artistic ideas or "gestures", although I do grant that stylistic infleunce
is probably impossible to avoid FOR ANY OF US. 

A harsh critique of the poem would irritate me, but it would
not anger me as much as this groundless charge of plagiarism.
I suspect that Phillip may be an astute student of poetry,
and my reading of rec.arts.books indicates that he is not,
in general, a usesnet pitbull who attacks for the sake of attack
alone.  Still, his unwarranted and sudden attack upon my
ethics leaves me just a bit unwilling to grant his commentary
on the poem itself any credibility whatsoever.

I would really like an apology, but I doubt I will get one,
as Mr. N. is quite unlikely to consider himself wrong in this.
There is really no way to effectively convince him, I suppose,
since I have been accused of something quite nebulous.
I welcome evidence that Joe Green's gesture was, in fact,
more similar to mine than I realize, in which case, I will
grant that because I did not pay enough attention to what
Joe said that I unintentionally plagiarized his specific idea.
I do not actually believe this to be the case, and in fact,
I do not think the specific idea is what I am ACCUSED of
stealing.

I am left to be quite angry and somewhat distressed
at this highly personal insult.  Perhaps I deserve this sort 
of unfounded hostility for my past confrontational harshness 
towards others, although I never once, not even once, attacked 
anyone's ethical integrity.


doug
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems