HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<LERNER.92Jul16144011@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<FAIGIN.92Jul16135135@soldan.aero.org>
	<1992Jul20.211358.27459@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>
	<FAIGIN.92Jul20150755@soldan.aero.org>
	<LERNER.92Jul21122239@division.cs.columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:31:48 GMT

On Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:22:39 GMT, lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) said:

>>Based on the way that I've seen some Orthodox on this net behave, I surely
>>wouldn't be attracted to a belief system that was that narrow-minded. 

>  To the contrary,  Judaism does not proselytize,  so it does not modify
>  its belief system to attract people.

Proselytizing is attracting those of a different religion. I don't think you
dislike Reform so much that living in such a way that attracting other Jews to
be more observant is proselytizing.

>  Nor is Judaism narrow-minded despite the Reform characterization to the
>  contrary.

I never claimed Judaism was. However, the way it is presented on this net
often leaves that aftertase.

>>Consider: Reform Jews do keep kosher, do observe the holidays, do (for the
>>most part) circumcize their children, do observe Pesach, do eat Matzah and
>>moror, do follow the ethical teachings, do observe Rosh Hashana and Yom
>>Kippur, do teach their children in Judaism.

>  Oh, you forgot Shabbos.  

Many Reform Jews (of those that are serious) do indeed keep Shabbat.

>  Are these ccircumcisions by a mohel with the proper brochos, or by a
>  surgeon?

Both. Reform does actually have a mohelim program (if memory serves correct --
I don't know the details), and many Reform Jews use Conservative or Orthodox
Mohels. 

>  Indeed many Reform do keep Yom Kippur,
>  but the last Reform Rabbi I talked to told me he does NOT keep the fast
>  days.  What about the 9th of Av?

Most of the fast days other than YK are not practiced (that I am aware of),
although nothing prohibits a Reform Jew from fasting.

>>Reform is steadily moving towards tradition and practice. You've got Hebrew
>>in the service; you got both a Reader's and a Mourner's Kaddish (you used to
>>only have one).

>  Proof perfect that Reform does not know where it is, and the searching Jew
>  ought to be aware of this.

Alternate interpretation: Proof that Reform is a young movement compared to
traditional Judaism, and is learning the importance of tradition.

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
	  "You mean on top of everything else, this ship is rigged?"
	     King Ferdinand, of Spain to Columbus (Stan Freberg)
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Carbon-14
Date: 29 Jul 92 08:52:09 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <84589@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>In article <LERNER.92Jul27212841@division.cs.columbia.edu>, lerner@cs (Michah Lerner) writes:
>>   PLEASE, DO ME THE COURTESY OF NOT CLAIMING THAT CARBON 14 DATING AND THE
>>   LIKE IS A "DIRECT OBSERVATION".  HOW MANY PIECES OF ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT
>>   ARE IN USE IN  A C14 DATING OR THE OTHER PURPORTED "DIRECT OBSERVATIONS"
>>   WHICH ESTABLISH?  IT IS A DERIVED CALCULATION,  NOT A DIRECT OBSERVATION.
>>   WERE YOU THERE WITH A NOTEBOOK?
>
>It's one notch less direct than observing the moon, one more notch direct
>than observing Pluto's orbit or Jupiter's rings.
>  .....
>-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)

Please move this discussion to soc.culture.phisics , or to
soc.culture.christianity . This is a JEWISH forum.
There is no a Jewish principle objecting  evolution , either a cosmic
one or a biological one.
The Geonim (~  600 - 1000 ) said that stars are genarated by
accumulating of dust in the milky way. ( I saw it cited by the BALEY
HATOSAFOT ( ~ 1200-1400 ) in the book named ~ "PIRUSHEY BALEY HATOSAFOT
LATORA" .

The Ramban (~1200) said that it is impossible to explain how G od
create the world and hence the Tora just gave a simple discription. He
also wrote that the discription in Gen 1 is from a simple form to the
complicate one: fishes, birds ( who lay eggs) , ... a human being.

 I heard that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Shneorson a Rabbi of the Chabad
Hasidim, thinks it is better to object evolution. It seemed to me that
he makes a mistake by saying so. Even if judging from a
propaganda-benefit view point alone it seemed that making the impression
as if Judaism objects evolution is harmful.
Remember there is a principle of criation in the rambam's 13
principles list. There is not a principle about DATING that criation,
and defining the criation method.
Please read the short book BRIAT HAOLAM by Bart. ( The author of
DERENU MUL SHELOT HANEZACH) , That book was reccomended by Rabbi
Yitzhak Herzog ( a chief Rabbi ).  It brings a lot of proofs for the
criation of the world - several bilions years ago.
  Shalom    Gideon   Ehrlich    ERETZ YISRAEL
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Inheritance of Jewish Identity from a Great-great-grandmother
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:08:16 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Jul22.030441.18064@cbnews.cb.att.com> ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:

>Of course, in the distant - real distant past, one person performed
>both jobs, making the yaamod's easier :^)

There was a guy at one shul who when he did Hagbah used to hold the
Torah with one hand and help the person doing Gelilah with the other
hand.  He never figured out how to do it all by himself, but I suppose
this is because of the decline of the generations...
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire ***		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very Czarish theft.
 |warren@      But the ***
/ nysernet.org is concerned.
From: sutin@ra.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:42:08 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: ra.ucsc.edu

In article <Brt4A8.Gq3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
>sutin@ra.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>
>>->In article <14k5hgINNe7c@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>
>>Why are cannibal beliefs wrong for a cannibal?  Obviously they are wrong
>>for a Jew, but to attampt to correct the cannibal would be proseletyzing.
>
>Are the abominations practiced in certain parts of North and East Africa
>(I don't want to go into detail, just that they involve a mutilation of
>women) OK just because certain cultures accept them?

Are the abominations practiced in certain parts of the Middle East
(I don't want to go into detail, just that they involve a mutilation of
men) OK just because certain cultures accept them?  The Greeks thought
that circumcision was pretty abominable, no?  How is your attitude
different?

>Was the job discrimination against Jews, blacks and women, practiced a
>couple of generations ago, OK because the American culture accepted it
>then?

There is nothing wrong with a caste system from within the system.  As
far as the bigot is concerned, the Jews blacks, and women are getting
upity, and that is wat isn't OK.

>>Brian Sutin				sutin@helios.ucsc.edu
>
>Lenore Levine
>levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu


Brian Sutin				sutin@helios.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: wine (was Re: Meat on the first 10 days of Av)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:45:57 GMT

In article <memo.545631@cix.compulink.co.uk>
stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:

>In-Reply-To: <1992Jul27.172937.25839@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
>friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )

>>Is there exception for eating meat on Shabbat during this period?

>Yes, and wine is also permitted. As to Havdalah, the wine should be
>given to a child if one is available; otherwise, an adult may drink
>it.

Couldn't you simply make Havdalah on using a beverage that requires a
she'hakol instead of using wine?
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 22 Jul 1992 17:22:56 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: helios.ucsc.edu

In article <84069@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
->In article <1992Jul22.031658.8291@access.usask.ca>, choy@skorpio (I am a terminator.) writes:
->>Why must a Jew practice Jewish principles? You wouldn't demand a person
->>born in a tribe of cannibals to practice cannibal principles would you?
->
->No, because there's something wrong with cannibalism.  You're not that
->stupid that you can't figure out the answer to your own question, are you?
->-- 
->-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)

Could you please explain why cannibalism would appear wrong to a cannibal?
If I can gain strength by eating my neighbor, why should I not do so?

Brian Sutin				sutin@helios.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."
From: Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Electronic Matchmaker
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 22:51:56 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Women, I am about to launch a free electronic matching service on 
Usenet.  Unfortunately, more guys than gals have expressed an 
interest so far.  If you would like to see the fourth draft of my 
questionnaire so we can alter it to also fit women's needs as well as 
men's, either send me mail or look at the copy I posted in 
alt.personals.
 
This service is serious and I already have 84 men and 68 women signed
up so far.  The site of the service has already been selected and
programmers are being lined up for the construction of the listserver.
 
I should point out that this questionnaire really, really, really, 
needs some more input on CULTURES.  I need some questions to make sure
that matches are compatible culturally.
 
                                                            Eric Klien
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: Meat on the first 10 days of Av.
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 11:17:00 +0000


> +From         : friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
> +Subject      : Meat on the first 10 days of Av.
> 
> I have a few questions about eating meat between Rosh Chodesh Av and Tisha
> B'Av:
> 
> When is the last time that I can have meat?  

According to the Chayei Odom (can't give you a precise reference, but
I was learning it the other day) the prohibition starts as soon as
the local Kehilla have davened Ma'ariv (which may well be before
sunset).


>Is there exception for eating meat on Shabbat during this period?
>

Yes, and wine is also permitted. As to Havdalah, the wine should be
given to a child if one is available; otherwise, an adult may drink
it.

> Can I eat pareve foods which are cooked in fleishig pots but contain
> no meat?

I believe so, and if the pot has not been used for meat for 24 hours
then the food cooked therein is technically parev, although should
not be eaten on milky plates.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Phillips                Tel: 44-895-442141
Burch Phillips & Co.            Fax: 44-895-421231
63a Station Road
West Drayton
Middlesex
UB7 7LR
United Kingdom                  stephenp@compulink.co.uk
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:14:08 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul30.143620.21246@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
>
>The translation of "Lo Tirzach" is Do Not Murder.  THere is a
>distinct difference between "murder" and "kill".

I think one source of the confusion may be Christian translations of
the Bible.  I believe (correct me if I'm wrong - nicely, please) that
the King James Version translates "Lo Tirzach" (incorrectly) as "Do
not kill".
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: lone@math.ufl.edu (Amjad Lone)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: test
Date: 26 Jul 92 15:11:20 GMT
Organization: University of Florida Department of Mathematics


     This is a test. Please ignore.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:13:31 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.042915.10187@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>Yes and no, at least from what I was taught. (I've been told by people
>like Mr. Faigin that my congregation's branch of Reform is not all that
>typical, so I have to keep putting the caveats in.) We feel as strongly
>as you do that Torah is directly G-d's laws and must be followed absolutely.
>We not only think it's unnecessary, however, to follow "the dictates of
>the system as it was handed down through the generations", we feel it is
>actively *wrong*, as it involves omission of what we consider the correct
>and necessary interpretations of existing, absolute laws. Call it a form
>of fundamentalism if you will; it's probably a more accurate term than
>true Reform. 

   Actually, from the position you've articulated in scj, I would say you
   are "Reformodox."
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Helping anti-Semites (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Date: 25 Jul 92 22:42:56 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <dfs.712005284@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

>I hope they didn't give the guy any pain medication.

I don't say that one has to be excessively nice to a neo-Nazi, but
cause him needless pain?  This makes me sick.  Doctors are not in
the vengeance business, and if a doctor did actually do this, I'd want
to see his or her license to practice medicine revoked.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very bitter apple.
 |warren@      But the cabbie
/ nysernet.org is not all that hungry.
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 23 Jul 92 11:27:12 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Jul22.210354.11325@wam.umd.edu> aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>We might need to change soc.culture.jewish to talk.religion.jewish.

I nominate this as a motto of alt.folklore.jewish.

Seriously, Alberto, someone asked about cannibals.  We are talking
cannibals, not Jews.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very three-sided carrot.
 |warren@      But the chef
/ nysernet.org is not all that hungry.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Mafdal and the Government
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 16:57:37 +0300

 In: <l6dts3INNfp6@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>
 Janice Gelb asks:

>In article 711364151@techunix.technion.ac.il, goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il
>>janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:
>>
>>>I was just wondering if this the first time the Mafdal has not been
>>>part of the Israeli government ...
>>
>>                           NO
>
>
>Someone else replied equally strongly YES.  Could you provide some dates
>either way?

I am sure the  answer is NO.  Before Begin won  the elections in (May,
June?)  1977,  Mafdal was  NOT  in  Rabin's government.   Them  voting
against the government, and Rabin  throwing them out of the coalition,
was the cause  for the (early) 1977 election (a  bad miscalculation of
Rabin in 1977!).

Before that I  remember clearly that once when Ben  Gurion was P.M. he
also held  for some  time the  post of Minister  of the  Religions, as
Mafdal was  not in, later Rabbi  Toledano, not Mafdal, took  over that
ministry, Mafdal  was still out.   If it  is really important  I could
find the exact dates for this  event, but only if someone disputes it.

Michael Shimshoni
From: hap@scubed.com (Hap Freiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:41:39 GMT
Organization: S-CUBED, A Division of Maxwell Labs; San Diego CA

In article <EGGERTJ.92Jul24115145@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.134710.14212@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> afrydman@granpa.enet.dec.com (Av Frydman) writes:
>I didn't interpret Nora's characterization of Orthodox Judaism to be
>hatred, but just theological disagreement.  That Orthodox theory is as
>objectionable to Nora as Christian theory is striking.  This implies
>that some Jews are as far apart from some other Jews as they are from
>Christianity.  Since Judaism and Christianity are usually considered
>two religions, this implies that Orthodox Judaism and, say, reform
>Judaism are also two religions, at least in the eyes of some.
>
>
>--
>=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

My $0.02. Far be it from me to interpret Nora's thoughts but what I
think she may mean is this: "Fundies" of any ilk are anathema. They
tend to have tunnel vision, be self-righteous, and to believe whole-
heartedly that their "WAY" is the only way and that all non-followers
or -believers are doomed.  Not a whole lot of room left for compro-
mise, individuality, or divergent thoughts.... What is the "moral"
difference between the Orthodox of Jerusalem throwing stones at other
Jews who travel on the Sabbath and the former head of the Southern
Baptists telling his convention that God does not here the prayers of
the Jews?

Hap

p.s. Does any one remember Eric Hoffer's _The True Believer_?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: heasif@huji.ac.il (Avrum Goodblat)
Subject: Re: Computer Jobs in Israel - an initiative by Jacob Richman (Part 1 - 258 lines)
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 30 Jul 92 06:19:09 GMT

Please see my note on Israel jobs. Basically, Jacob Richman has asked me
to post his apology for the mistake in posting his job list. It was done
in error. You may reach Jacob via my mail account if necessary.

--
Heasif - The Judaic Studies Electronic Newsletter
A SAF Project - Avrum Goodblatt director, Yehiel Greenbaum, editor
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Turbo-Orthodox (was Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:04:59 GMT

In article <Brt4AD.6s4@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.175255.22054@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
>
>>Kidding aside, I usually use "Yeshivish-Orthodox".  That doesn't seem to be
>>offensive to members of that crowd with whom I've used it.
>How about "black hat".  It's descriptive, and it has rather a dashing sound
>to it!

   Stetson or Borselino?

   (Hi N!)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hbb@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (harlan.b.braude)
Subject: Re: Multiple Hechshers
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 11:54:45 GMT

In article <9207291928.AA08514@ptms_dev.sbi.com> <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)> writes:
>consumer (consumer of kosher goods, that is).  Is it possible that
>some people don't know that (untreated) water doesn't need any
>supervision.  (Am I providing another avenue of rationalization?)
When I was at YU, I was told of a lecture given by Rabbi Tendler
in which he discussed some technical halachote of hot water in
kashrut. Specifically, he used an example of an apartment building
water system in which one resident runs hot tap water over non-kosher
meat.

Just as an intro, in purely theoretical discussions extreme ideas
are often examined to see how well they fit into the model on which
decisions are based.

The idea Rabbi Tendler explored had to do with the possibility that
all of the water in the hot water system of the apartment building
could be consider not kosher! I think the discussion even extended
all water world-wide (laws of bitul notwithstanding,) which I thought
was rather shocking/amusing.

>Had going to the bank been so important, couldn't he have done it
>sometime between 9 and 11?  I told them I'll call to speak to him
Perhaps the freezer for the kosher meat is kept in the vault at the
bank? :-)
-- 
Harlan B. Braude
hbb@usl.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: schwartz@nynexst.com (Steven Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Multiple Hechshers
Originator: schwartz@baba
Reply-To: schwartz@nynexst.com
Organization: Expert Systems Lab., NYNEX Sci. and Tech., White Plains NY
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 15:26:08 GMT


In article <1992Jul30.010817.19798@cs.ubc.ca>, drukier@crisium.geop.ubc.ca (Gordon Drukier) writes:
> If you want processed food, you have to worry about how they did the
> processing. Anyone for a Jewish back-to-the-land movement?

Would you settle for a back-to-the-Jewish-land movement?
-- 
Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory
schwartz@nynexst.com		NYNEX Science and Technology Center
PROFS: SCHWARTZ@UNIX		500 Westchester Avenue
914-644-2960			White Plains NY 10604
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cblph.att.com (Arthur S Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Multiple Hechshers [was: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared
Reply-To: <ask@cblph.att.com (Arthur S Kamlet)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 30 Jul 92 03:18:10 GMT

In article <29JUL199210540758@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>
>Traveling on an El Al plane can be wild.  The local hechsher is not
>good enough for some of the passengers; at least two London ones, a
>Swiss and Belgian one were requested by neighbors of mine.  And finally
>there was the fellow who refused all food and took out his home-made
>sandwich.  Yiden, gevald!

There'a a very old story (apologies to all who have heard it many
times) of this one super-strict fellow.  When he enters the world
to come he is informed of a banquet to be held in his honor, that
very evening, since he was such a saint here on earth.

Naturally, he asks who the caterer will be?

He is told G-d himself is catering.

He thinks a bit, and says, "That's OK.  I can eat the fruit."