HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stavros@agora.rain.com (Steve Culliton)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Distribution: pnw
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 21:30:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan08.181043.16982@Celestial.COM> bill@Celestial.COM (Bill Campbell) writes:
>In <1993Jan5.212321.23381@tera.com> erik@tera.com (Erik Hedberg) writes:
>
>....
>:Further clouding the issue is the fact that "life without parole" is
>:*cheaper* than execution.  Some people might not agree with this, but
>:this is what I was taught in a criminal law class in college.  You can
>:do the math for yourself.  If it costs $40K/yr to house inmates, and
>:about $100K to build a cell, and the "average" inmate in question is
>:sentenced at age 27, lives to age 75, this comes to (75-27)*40K + 100K
>:= $2.02M (in a new cell).  This is a lot, but the costs of appeals
>:easily exceeds this.  Remember, government pays the prosecutors,
>:defense attorneys, and the judges.  The figure we were taught (in
>:1975) was about $10M for capital appeals to be exhausted.
>:Streamlining the appeals process reduces the $10M, but it needs to be
>:cut by 80% to match the $2M.

What makes you think that with a life without parole, the convict isn't still
going to make $10M in apeals while in prison?  And your argument presupposes 
that every convict costs that much in appealing the death sentence, which for Dodd, it didn't.  I think the book you learned from was slightly slanted.  It is far cheaper to execute than support for life.  The room is already made, rope is cheap, a hangman gets paid by the job.  The grave cost is the same whether
the convict died from natural causes after live imprisonment or hanging.  Feeding, housing, medical, dental, guards, for life is a hell of a lot more expensive.  TTFN  



>
>Simple solution -- hang the lawyers!  This will eliminate the
>appeals and much of the backlog in the courts.
>
>Bill
>-- 
>INTERNET:  bill@Celestial.COM   Bill Campbell; Celestial Software
>UUCP:   ...!thebes!camco!bill   6641 East Mercer Way
>             uunet!camco!bill   Mercer Island, WA 98040; (206) 947-5591
>SPEED COSTS MONEY -- HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO?


Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: fyl@fylz.wa.com (Phil Hughes)
Subject: Re: Seattle City Light vs. Puget Power
Organization: FYL
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 23:34:14 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

David Ruggiero (osiris@halcyon.com) wrote:

: Sorry to both of yous guys, but the main reason that Seattle City light
: rates are among the lowest in the country (lower than almost any other
: major urban area - this shoots a hole in Mark's argument) is that 50-75%
: of their power is supplied by their wholly-owned, fully-amortized, and
: (relatively) cheap hydroelectric dams on the Skagit River. Puget Power,
: on the other hand, has to either generate its own power using fossil
: fuels or buy it at higher (near market) rates from the BPA (with its
: newer, higher-cost dams and WPPSS involvement), or at very high (full
: market) rates from the West Coast grid.

So true.  My claim is that this has happened because City Light, not
being guided by short-term profits, managed to put together a
reasonable supply system.  Puget Power, with stockholders, had a much
shorter-term outlook.
-- 
Phil Hughes - FYL - 8315 Lk City Wy NE - Suite 207 - Seattle, WA 98115 
Phone: 206-526-2919 x74      Fax: 526-0803
E-mail: fyl@fylz.com or nwnexus!fylz!fyl
From: daveike@sumax.seattleu.edu (Eickerman)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 5 Jan 93 11:49:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: sumax.1idkrkINNgv8
Organization: Seattle University
NNTP-Posting-Host: sumax.seattleu.edu

In article <1993Jan5.215047.5824@fasttech.com> zeke@fasttech.com (Bohdan Tashchuk) writes:
>
>Even when people are put behind bars "without possibility of parole", there
>are always people like Mike Dukakis who think they should get weekends off
>for a little R & R.
>
Mr. Dukakis did not start this weekend parole program.  If I remember
correctly, a Republican governor began the program, a few terms prior to
Mr. Dukakis becoming governor.  He is not at fault in this case, though
many Republicans during the campaign thought he started it and let him out
himself.  The only way Republicans think they can win is to dig up dirt
and falsehoods about their opponent, because they can't find anything good
to say about their candidate.

I am very glad to see the hanging take place, and Mr. Campbell should be
next, next week would be nice, the room is all ready prepared.

John Eickerman
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Distribution: pnw
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 06:02:12 GMT

robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:

>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it
>happen or will the ACLU be successful in obtaining clemency?  I saw a towm
>meeting dedicated to the punishment of Dodd and it seems the vast majority
>of attendees would like sentence carried out.  The Gal from amnisty 
>International appeared to be a bit out of touch with the rest of Seattle's
>mood.



As I was driving home this evening, I heard on the radio that the
State of Washington Supreme Court ruled that hanging is a viable and
non-abusive form of capital punishment.  As I write this response, I
realize that Dodd will be dead within 3 hours, as I don't see any more
legal roadblocks which will stand in the way of his execution at 12:01
AM.

As for me, years ago I thought that legal execution such as this was
justified ("an eye for an eye").  Now, I just truely don't know.  Yes,
Dodd wants to be killed, but according to poles in the state of 
Washington, the majority don't believe in executing Dodd.  I find it
ironic how the State will perform the execution in a manner in which
Dodd himself killed his victims:  by hanging.  I also must reflect
on how difficult it would have been on me if I had to decided whether
or not to execute Dodd.  Having the power to legally kill/exterminate/
end another human life does not necessarily make the legality of the
killing truly binding under law.

If Dodd had killed one of my sons, what would I have done?  Kill him?
I realize that Dodd's death will insure that one less child molester
is free in our society, but it still doesn't bring back the Isely
boy or the Neer boys.  What a puzzle this all is . . . 

allen
From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 7 Jan 93 22:13:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: oregon.7JAN199314134328
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Oregon
NNTP-Posting-Host: oregon.uoregon.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <crystal.726373335@glia>,
 crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes...
>Clinton didn't limit your choices.  There have been private schools in 
>existence since the turn of the century, if not earlier.  The only limitation
>on one's choices is the amount of money they make.  And everyone can make
>the choice of learning the skills for a better paying job if they choose.

Quite a bit earlier than the turn of the century.  I went to a private high
school in Connecticut that was founded in 1660.  Surprisingly, it wasn't
stuck-up about it at all, probably because it was considered one of the best
schools in the New Haven area.

                         				Dan, ad nauseum
From: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 8 Jan 93 18:07:58 GMT
Reply-To: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Zortech, Seattle

In article <6JAN199315114558@oregon.uoregon.edu> dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be) writes:
/That may be so, but I think that one opportunity that is missed in the exercise
/of capital punishment is to learn how to prevent other Dodds from appearing.

There are as many theories on why there are serial killers as there are serial
killers. The one common thread they have is that there is no common thread.
Human beings are a little too complicated to be individually predictable.

There was an attempt to get Dodd's brain donated to science to look for
abnormalities. This bit of silliness reminded me of the Soviet communists'
attempt to prove that a communists' brain was superior to other brains,
and they saved prominent communist's brains to prove it (including Stalin's).
And you thought "They Saved Hitler's Brain" was an absurd movie...
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe)
Subject: Wesley A. Dodd
Organization: Boeing
Distribution: pnw
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 19:18:06 GMT

  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it
happen or will the ACLU be successful in obtaining clemency?  I saw a towm
meeting dedicated to the punishment of Dodd and it seems the vast majority
of attendees would like sentence carried out.  The Gal from amnisty 
International appeared to be a bit out of touch with the rest of Seattle's
mood.




-- 
Statement made by Oliver North when asked to comment on Clinton's draft
record.  "I would rather vote for Jane Fonda than Gov. Clinton!  At least
she has been to North Vietnam."
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: Re: More about Wes
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Distribution: pnw
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:38:12 GMT

mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM writes:

>According to the autopsy report, Dodd died of strangulation (slow) rather than
>by his spine being snapped (quick).

>Now, if the state can't murder a guy any more efficiently than that, they
>should call on a professional. Like, maybe, a mob hitman (.22 behind
>the ear), teenage gang member (Uzi), or right-to-lifer (pipe bomb).


Actually, he died of both strangulation AND massive nerve damage.  Following
are excerpts from a story on Page 1 of the Portland, OR Oregonian newspaper
Metro section:

			Autopsy shows Dodd died of strangulation

	Tuesday's execution of Westley Allan Dodd was not textbook perfect but
was done skillfully enough to cause nearly instantaneous loss of consciousness,
a medical examiner said Wednesday. . . . "Whatever pain was experienced was
exceedingly brief,", said Dr. Donald Reay.

I'd also like to add that I heard news accounts on the radio where Dodd was
"probably" unconscious when he hit the end of the rope, although personally, I
have to wonder how the hell someone can discern something like this, even 
with the best medical knowledge.  But then, we'll just never ever be able to
know for sure about things like this.

allen
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 7 Jan 93 01:21:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvca.1993Jan7.012128.16213
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

charlesw@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Charles Wilson) writes:
: Oh, I see.  They don't allow harrassment or kidnapping at Private Elitist
: schools, only at the commoners public schools.  That makes sense.  You're
: right, I should be happy to send my children to public schools were they
: may be harrassed or kidnapped.  But not the President.  He has more 
: important things on his mind.  HIS child should be protected from such
: things.

First, being the daughter of the president, that immediately makes her
more of a "target", either just because of publicity, or as a means to
get to her father.

Second, you can send your kid to a private school, too.  Or, you can go
with home schooling.

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
From: prang@plato.ds.boeing.com (Ron Wanttaja)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Cost of Capital Punishment (was Re: Wesley A. Dodd)
Date: 9 Jan 93 03:03:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: plato.C0KGIC.L40
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Boeing Defense & Space Group

> Further clouding the issue is the fact that "life without parole" is
> *cheaper* than execution. 

Then, in that case, society's most cost-effective solution would be to just
leave them alone... don't execute OR imprison them!

Let's say Dodd had never been caught, and went on killing three kids a year
until the day he died.  His normal lifespan probably would have been 72
years.  That's about 120 kids dead... but the costs would be borne entirely
by the families involved.  The State wouldn't have to spend a penny!

:-)   :-)

Seriously, the whole notion of "just punishment" has enough emotional
baggage that I think we should just leave the financial issues out of
it....
					  
					  Ron Wanttaja
					  prang@plato.ds.boeing.com
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: zeke@fasttech.com (Bohdan Tashchuk)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Organization: Fast Technology
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:50:47 GMT

In <1icf6gINNrve@shelley.u.washington.edu> dxxb@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Barts) writes:

>>    Curious.  Perhaps the Tooth Fairy comes and sprinkles magic Efficiency
>>    Dust (R) over the Corrections Department in her off hours.  Or maybe its
>>    the Easter Bunny who does that.

>Okay, I'll admit it - this was flame bait.  But you get my point
>- I simply can't trust the government (or anyone else that matter)
>completely enough to give it that kind of life or death power.

You and I have a basic philosophical difference of opinion here.

I look at goverment and see that guys like Charles Manson and Sirhan Sirhan
have parole hearings on a regular basis. I see guys like Hinckley get smart
lawyers and weasel their way out of very serious charges. In fact a while ago
one of the first two came close to going free until there was a large public
protest (it's been years so my recollection is hazy).

Even when people are put behind bars "without possibility of parole", there
are always people like Mike Dukakis who think they should get weekends off
for a little R & R.

I simply can't trust the government to keep these people locked up. The death
penalty solves the problem. And since it is applied in this country to only the
most heinous of crimes, I'm not very worried about it being misapplied. For
example, Dodd is the first person executed in Washington in 29.5 years. And
Washington isn't likely to do more than a few a year even if they can figure
out how to get past the ACLU and the liberal appeals courts.

So there. Counter flame bait.
From: dxxb@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Barts)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: More about Wes (really, contradictions & FUD about death)
Date: 9 Jan 93 06:12:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1ilqc1INNdcf
Distribution: pnw
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

zeke@fasttech.com (Bohdan Tashchuk) writes:

> [edited]
>But we do have a very quick and humane method. For some reason it isn't
>used here, maybe because the French popularized it. All we have in this
>country is some colorful cliches, eg "Heads will roll over this."

>It seems to me that a guillotine with a sharp blade should work pretty
>well. After all, how long can a head live after it has been detached
>from the body? Does anyone know why this method is in disfavor?

My conjecture is because it is messy:  a head indeed rolls, and
blood gushes forth from both stumps.  Thus, it conflicts with the
desire of people to escape from the reality of what is being done
by making everything "neat", "clinical", and "peaceful".

-- 
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@ce.washington.edu                Seattle, WA  98195
From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 5 Jan 93 01:08:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: Tomobiki.MS-C.726253721.377401575.mrc
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu
To: David Barts <dxxb@hardy.u.washington.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

David Barts writes:
> I simply can't trust the government
> completely enough to give it that kind of life or death power.

How about a jury of citizens like yourself, and a few zillion judges?

Remember, it isn't the *government* that decides whether or not to apply the
death penalty.

I'm glad to hear though that David Barts expresses distrust of the government.
Perhaps he is now ready to take the next step, which is to realize that the
government shouldn't be trusted with health care, or with social welfare, or
with any of the zillion other things liberals want the government to take on.
From: dxxb@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Barts)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:56:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1ici4cINN268
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:

>David Barts writes:
>> I simply can't trust the government
>> completely enough to give it that kind of life or death power.

WARNING:  The following sentences have been altered and may no longer reflect
the poster's views.

>How about an IRS of civil servants (US citizens like yourself), and a few
>zillion judges?

>Remember, it isn't the *government* that decides how much taxes you owe.

-or-
>How about a KGB of loyal workers like yourself and a few zillion Party
>members?

>Remember, it isn't the *government* that decides how you can live your life.

End of altered sentences.

>I'm glad to hear though that David Barts expresses distrust of the government.
>Perhaps he is now ready to take the next step, which is to realize that the
>government shouldn't be trusted with health care, or with social welfare, or
>with any of the zillion other things liberals want the government to take on.

If the gov't, say, taxes me more than the law allows, I can take
the case to court and get my money back (with interest).  (And if
I can't, then the law should definitely be changed so that I can
do so.) If the gov't wrongly kills me, I have yet to figure out a
way to get my life back.

-- 
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@ce.washington.edu                Seattle, WA  98195
From: mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 4 Jan 93 15:20:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: Ikkoku-K.MS-C.726218414.1103527590.mrc
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: ikkoku-kan.panda.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

In terms of the necessity of Dodd's death, one only needs to listen to what
Dodd himself has said: there is no choice.  People such as Wesley Dodd and Ted
Bundy can not be salvaged; they can never be made harmless enough to live in
our society.

We have a ghoulish idea of what constitutes ``mercy''.  Hanging kills by
fracturing the neck, *not* strangulation, when done properly.  Death is
instantaneous.  Yet, we prefer other means to render the incorrigible
harmless.  We lock them in a cage to rot for decades, perhaps the rest of
their lives, and live in fear of their escape.  I don't call being caged
``living'' or ``merciful''.

When we do execute them, we prefer the slow means with elaborate procedures.
It is absurd that the opponents of the death penalty claim that being strapped
on a hospital guerney with a needle pumping salt water into your veins for 15
minutes before they hit with the pentothal is somehow ``merciful'' compared to
something that kills in a fraction of a second.  Yet this grotesque and
lengthy procedure is proferred as ``mercy''!
From: dxxb@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Barts)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Dodd didn't need to die!!
Date: 9 Jan 93 06:33:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1ilrjhINNehi
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:

> [edited]
>Now that I have your attention, the 'Cruel and Unusual' punishment
>had nothing to do with the ACLU's intent.  If he would be put to death
>and it felt like an orgasim the ACLU would have found some reason to 
>object.  Remember, that was simply an issue they used to open an appeal.
>They could have used any number of reasons like, capital punishment is 
>unconstitutional, period etc.

Ding!  Mr. Sipe gets one right!  And more power to the ACLU -- I say toss
as many wooden shoes as possible into the gears!

>                               I guess it is a bit like Hand Gun Control, Inc's
>intent to do away with the 2nd amendment.  They look for ways or issues
>to build public support to change one or two laws removing citizens 
>rights then eventually they can sway congress to overturn our RKBA.

Oh, puhleeeze.  We've already got capital punishment and health
care policy being debated.  Two concurrent flame-fests is quite
enough, thank you.  Besides, if you remember from when the gun-control
debate last came up, I didn't much agree with HCI's position on
the issue.

>Anyway, I am glad the ACLU made the attempt.  It has revealed the true
>colors of the organization.  Not that this should really surprizes anyone.
>However, it may begin to get supporters to question their allegance to these
>wackos!

?Huh?  You start out talking about the ACLU and then you change
the subject right in the middle of the paragraph to death penalty
supporters.  Now you've got me confused.
-- 
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@ce.washington.edu                Seattle, WA  98195
From: joshua@sumax.seattleu.edu (bar joseph)
Newsgroups: seattleu.general,pnw.general
Subject: IIgs users.
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:31:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: sumax.1iua79INNbvd
Organization: Seattle University
NNTP-Posting-Host: sumax.seattleu.edu


Just as a matter of curiousity, I've been trying to locate any Apple IIgs
owners or users in Seattle area. (or anywhere within driving range from)

If any, could you send me some kind of reply via E-mail?  Don't freak, just
trying to ask you some questions or even trade some programs+hardwares with 
you...

IIgs forever-

Pete.
From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 6 Jan 93 01:18:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: glia.crystal.726283133
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: glia.biostr.washington.edu

In <MS-C.726280864.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:

>Well, the hypocrisy of the Clinton administration has already started.  The
>Clintons are sending Chelsea to an expensive private school.  So much for the
>great and gradiose promises.

>Bill Clinton knows perfectly well what sending his daughter to public school
>in Washington DC would mean.  After years of ``just throw more tax money and
>all problems will be solved'' mismanagement, public schools are a nightmare; a
>lot happens there, but not very much education.

>It's very nice for the Clintons that they can afford to send their child to an
>expensive private school.  Too bad their supposed constituency -- the poor and
>middle class -- don't have the same luxury.  Too bad liberals have vehemently
>opposed giving the poor and middle class that luxury.

>I wonder if it's time for a Constitutional Amendment forcing all children of
>government officials to attend public school?  That'd get changes made!!

Likely the reason is more due to security and fear of the daughter getting 
harrassed or kidnapped or something.  That's not something a parent will admit
in public, but it's not unreasonable for a President's child.  As a govenor,
there was nothing to fear...now there could be.

One can still understand educational values, even if they don't go to the
same schools.  I think someone may be putting the cart before the horse here,
let's wait and see what comments he makes about education.  (Personally, I
see no hypocrisy, just common sense safety for the Presidential children).
 
Crystal
  :>
BTW, I tend to stay out of political arguments.  I don't follow the gossip of
others...  ;>