HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser)
Subject: Re: Ah, Fashion.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 19:05:27 GMT
Organization: a stone mountain of Kudzu

In <BvrJyz.MBM@scd.hp.com> mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton) writes:

>Jess Anderson (anderson@macc.wisc.edu) wrote:
>> 
>> I have a decent regard for Madonna, who's nobody's dummy,
>> but a person of the cultural stature of Dietrich she's not
>> very likely ever to be, nor even of the stature of Janis
>> Joplin, to pick someone in the music field.
>> 
>> -- 
>Who's Janis Joplin?

The character Bette Midler played in "The Rose".

>Mike Drayton      mdrayton@sr.hp.com   
>                                      


=======================================================================
 Mike Reaser, Hewlett-Packard N. Amer. Response Center - Atlanta
 Internet:  mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com
 NBCS: B4 f w g+ k s-               I barely speak for myself, so
 #include <standard.disclaimer>       don't make me speak for HP
=======================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Subject: Re: M A D O N N A
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:31:43 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: soc.motss

In article <1992Oct13.153508.17384@macc.wisc.edu>, anderson@macc.wisc.edu
(Jess Anderson) wrote:

> Well, I think it's the most nearly correct thing he's ever
> said.  You forget that he's illiterate.  What he means is
> that Pres and Pres-to-be would like to market themselves to
> a gullible public as successfully as Madonna does.  
> 
> Content is irrelevant, form is everything.  Though it's a
> pitiful fact, Madonna more content than either candidate
> does.
> 
> However, I will admit that the idea of Bush cavorting around
> the debate platform in a cone-tit bustiere *is* hilarious.
> Might as well give Clinton a nose job and dye/perm his hair
> and let 'im be the Michael Jackson clone.  This could be the
> seed of a good political cartoon.

In a shockingly cruel twist of fate, I am forced to admit that
I agree with everything here.  Including the political cartoon.
But political cartoonists would probably have much the same
reaction that Donahue had:  Like Madonna?  Are you crazy?

But it is the case.  More sad:  Madonna does have more content
than either candidate.  She is certainly a vocal champion of 
the gay and lesbian community.  Clinton can't say the words fast 
enough to get them off his tongue.  Madonna is always in the company
of an ethnically diverse crowd.  Madonna puts her personal fame 
and fortune behind causes like the war against AIDS.  And, of course, 
she *is* a she...

Madonna is not *all* hype, and probably less so than either of the
major candidates.

Melmothra, ACC
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly)
Subject: Re: Culture (was Re: Ah, Fashion.)
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores CA 94065
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 00:10:37 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

> In article <1992Oct13.044834.19221@macc.wisc.edu>
> macc.eisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>       >Wrote an opera, n'est-ce pas?
>       >No exact equivalent in English of "n'est-ce pas", I think.

> Wrote an opera, right?
> Seems about right, n'est-ce pas?

"N'est-ce pas" translates to "isn't that so" or "isn't that right" or 
more loosely (as above) "right."  But it seems to me that the more 
common English construction is

             Wrote an opera, didn't he?  (or she)
-- 
Daniel Gilly,                                  dgilly@us.oracle.com 
yield all gin                                  Oracle Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sandro@asylum.UUCP (Sandro Wallach)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Kiedis and Vedder Get Tender
Date: 16 Oct 92 07:14:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: asylum.486

Wow.  Two of my favorite singers....

Rolling Stone (10/29/92 p19) has a picture of Anthony Kiedis (Red Hot
Chili Peppers' lead singer) and Eddie Vedder (Pearl Jam's lead singer)
french kissing.  Kiedis, holding Vedder, is clearly the initiator, but
their mouths are open and their eyes are closed; they look into it.
The picture was taken backstage at the MTV Video Music Award.  The
only comment on the picture is the caption, "Kiedis and Vedder Get
Tender."

I don't want to read too much into it (I wont to jump to the unfounded
conclusion that either of them gay), but I still think it's cool.

Actually, it kind of made my day, and I wanted to share it.

There's also a comment in the text that Pearl Jam and Nirvana have
made up (finally!), and Vedder slow danced during Clapton's
performance with (Nirvana lead singer) Kurt Cobain and Kurt's wife.

While I'm on the subject, there's a picture of Elton and Axl together,
but they're not kissing and somehow I don't think we'll hear about it
if that happens.  It's good they're close, but I guess some cool
people have to be publicly straight.  (If you wanna flame about Axl,
let's do in e-mail.)

	-- sandro      (sandro@ELF.com)
From: his@the-temple.East.Sun.COM (Howard Solomon - SunExpress Support Engineer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: WARNING: Stealth African Marauding soc.motss
Date: 14 Oct 1992 13:57:04 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: his@the-temple.East.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: the-temple.east.sun.com

In article 719030902@cwis, thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:
>This is really pissing me off. People keep telling Donald that he's
>being hateful and that it's as bad as a white person being hateful
>towards blacks. What about how we feel towards straights?

Please don't assume that "we" all feel the same towards the straight community
en masse.

>
>Speaking only for myself, I've found that I hate straight men more and
>more as time goes on. Most straight men I know are stupid and boring
>and treat the gals badly and like to fight, and I find that I'm much
>happier just staying away from them. 
[...]

Hating all straight men.  Does this sound productive to anyone?  This, in my mind (as
little as some may think it is!) further demonstrates the problem.  Hating a class
of people is wrong.  Even if many in that class hate or have hurt you or your class.
hating the hate is different as is hating those that have actually causes harm.
You can't see the stereotypical harm of generalization here?

>
>What I'm saying is very prejudiced. So fucking what? It's not like
>I can use my feelings to harm the straight white male supremacy.
>Nothing I can do can change the bastardization of the world around
>me into a giant gogopalace/tractorpull. I can only hope for revolution
>(or complete economic breakdown; which will happen first? Both can be
>benefitted from...).

WHAT?  It is OK for you to be prejudiced because most of THEM are?  This makes the
problem worse.  You can do nothing?  Only revolution will fix things?  I can't
see any of this.  To take your argument further, the world of 1992 is no better than
the world of 1882, 1682, 1282, or 82.  Do you really believe this?  Certainly we
have a VERY LONG way to go.  But you appear to deny the immense progress that has
been made over time.  Would you have wanted to deal with coming out in the
US in the 1950s (my hat off to those of you reading who did!)?  Or worse, in the
middle ages?  How can you hope to stop others prejudice with your own?

>
[...]
>--
>John Dorrance * Alleged Homosexual/Shameless Hussy * thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu

Howard

---
========================================================================
Howard I. Solomon			|ELECTION '92
Software Support Engineer, SunExpress	|Hold your nose and vote for Bill!
his@east.sun.com			|
=========================================================================

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: "Hypocrisy" (was: WARNING: Stealth African ...)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 06:25:23 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.181612.15036@quantime.co.uk> roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips) writes:
>In article <1992Oct13.194856.25103@netcom.com>,
>foucault@netcom.com (Howard Arthur Faye) writes:
>> In article <1992Oct13.163442.28435@netcom.com>
>> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>> >No.  Ronald Reagan was a hypocrite in the literal sense of the word.  
>>
>> Has 'hypocrisy' become the patent put-down of the 90's? I keep running
>> into accusations and descriptions of 'hypocrisy' that make no sense.
>
>What I want to know is: what's the _figurative_ sense of the word?

Whatever it was that brought this up in the first place was a case of
figurative hypocrisy (if it was hypocrisy at all).

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
From: nih00@ccc.amdahl.com (Neil Hamilton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Ella (was Re: Dietrich, Madonna, etc.)
Date: 14 Oct 92 03:29:24 GMT
Reply-To: nih00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct12.180259.14453@cabezon.uucp> kenr@cabezon.uucp (Ken Richards) writes:
>adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>
>>No need to duck from me on that one.  It's why I really
>>don't like her Cole Porter Songbook.  The songs are all
>>very pleasantly done, but there's no *ooompf*.  Her Harold
>>Arlen is all wrong, too.  The successful Arlen singers are
>>the ones who've got that extra something -- be that lived 
>>experience, pain, personality -- people like Judy Garland 
>>and Lee Wiley and the young Barbra Streisand.  Ella's
>>Harold Arlen just sits there.  It's *beautiful*, but not
>>at all involving, and I don't know of another songwriter
>>whose songs can be more delightful, painful, involving.
>>Compare Ella's The Man That Got Away or Over the Rainbow 
>>with Judy's.  Compare Ella's Stormy Weather with Ethel
>>Waters' or Judy's or Ivie Anderson's.  Compare Ella's
>>Let's Take a Walk Around the Block with Tammy Grimes',
>>or her One for My Baby with Yvonne de Carlo's.  Ella sings
>>all of those songs beautifully -- there is almost no one
>>with that gorgeous a tone, that incredible an instrument --
>>but there's no *person* there.
>
>If you want to hear the true Ella, you have to throw away those
>songbook albums and get her live stuff: "Ella in Berlin", 
>"Ella Returns to Berlin", and especially "Ella in Rome"
>All the Ella song books I've heard are dull and lacking, 
>well, Ella-ness. She seems to be constrained by the muzak 
>style orchestras that usually accompany her on these albums.
>
>So, has anyone been to a Ella concert recently?

Haven't seen her lately but years ago I had front row center
seats a the Hollywood Bowl to watch her Saturday afternoon
rehearsal.  It was a performance that I'll never forget.

Neil 

 ACC - FF
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: TORIE OSBORN named head of NGLTF
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 16:44:35 -0400
X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA11435; Sat, 10 Oct 92 13:47:56 -0700
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X-Received: by client.its.rpi.edu (4.1/SUB16);id AA19900; Sat, 10 Oct 92 16:44:36 EDT for gaynet@gallifrey.kent.edu
X-To: soc.motss.usenet
X-Cc: qn@queernet.org, gaynet@gallifrey.kent.edu


According to the GayNet news service Torie Osborn, former Director of the $6+
million Los Angees Gay and Lesbian Community Center, has been named the new
Executive Director of the NGLTF, to replace Urvashi Vaid, who is stepping down
in December.


---
RON BUCKMIRE
The Lyrics Transcription Project: Cocteau Twins Division, section 319
11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735
vox:(518)-276-8910 fax:(518)-276-6920 buckmr@rpi.edu buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@vccsouth15.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: PASSING by Langston Hughes
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 20:16:37 GMT

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

>From time to time, when I have a few minutes, I read a
>little bit from whichever book I presently have in my
>backpack.  Today's book is THE WAYS OF WHITE FOLKS, a
>Langston Hughes collection.  I don't know anything about
>Langston Hughes; the book was cheap and he is one of the
>people I've wanted to read for a while.  I hope this is a
>representative selection of his work.  Most notably, I find
>the story PASSING, which I expect Sargon and Melmac and
>their chums to scoff away with great noise and thunder and
>then think about cold-sweatedly from the dark recesses of
>their bed in the wee hours of the morning.
What do you mean you don't know anything about Langston Hughes? You mean you
do not know that he is one of premiere Black Gay literrary figures from the
Harlem Renaissance era? His work appears in the just-released-on-video LOOKING
FOR LANGSTON, directed by Isaac Julian.

>			       PASSING
>			   Langston Hughes

Thanks for posting this, Tim!
-- 
RON BUCKMIRE
Association to Promote the Apotheosis of Mariah Carey
11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Tired and Impatient (was Re: Dietrich, Madonna, etc.)
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:49:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: macc.1992Oct14.184959.23038
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <ldoff6INNmo0@spim.mti.sgi.com>
dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:

>Nope, [...] it make you a pompous intellectual....

Forget my earlier response, it was at least as dumb
as what you said.  I should thank you.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: Sean (was Re: Culture (was Re: Ah, Fashion.))
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 21:55:05 GMT

In article <sean@kaa.gr.osf.org>, emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes:

>                                    ,
> The "authentic" form is spelled "Sean", and is a man's name.  Women
> are not named Sean in Ireland.  There is an acute accent on the A;

                       '                                          ' 
Some women are called Sian, aren't they? I seem to remember that Sian
Phillips played Livia in _I, Claudius_.  (Ouch, those accents are way
too high. And I'm not sure they're over the right vowel, either.) How
is this pronounced?

> I tend to pronounce the name more like a long "shon" than "shawn".
> This also how I pronounce the word "shone", which I was recently
> startled to discover rhymes with Joan for some people.

We really need IPA for this kind of discussion, especially among
speakers of so many different dialects.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: elton john
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 19:56:40 GMT

In article <1b5ijrINN9p4@agate.berkeley.edu> key@soda.berkeley.edu (peter li'ir key) writes:

>i may be a little clueless, so please forgive me.
>i just saw elton john say he was a gay man on mtv.
>this was during a press conference about his new song,
>_the last song_ (which was dedicated to ryan white).
>
>was he out before this?

He came out as bi in the early Seventies.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "You are just naive and repressed because
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /  penis envy is here and it's now and it's
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  all around you." -- Neal C. Wickham
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Ah, Smell the Fashion.
Date: 9 Oct 92 08:09:14 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

In article <8OCT92.14442762@enh.nist.gov>,
aberson@enh.nist.gov adds his two scents' worth:
> In a previous article, thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) wrote:
> >I just either notice cologne or don't (But then, I can recognise
> >petchuli ...) and I'm afraid if I decide to wear it I'll
> >end up smelling like a damn French cathouse and not realize it ...

One of the reasons I had to let the imminent lover, Laurent, go
was the smell of roses in which he was always enveloped.

> Patchouli (correct spelling) is one of only two scents I can stand on myself.

I occasionally use sandalwood oil.
A friend gave me a small bottle
from the perfume company he worked for;
it's not diluted with alcohol or anything,
and just a drop, strategically applied,
can last for two or three days
without ever being overpowering.
(I can *only* use tiny amounts now -
the bottle is almost empty,
since another friend discovered it
and took to dousing himself in it.
Some things are unforgivable.)
I've tried other sandalwood concoctions
(some claiming to be essential oils),
and they've all turned sour
after a few hours on my skin.

Now (horrors!), I'm contemplating trying white musk...
-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"*duckshove* (Austr. and N.Z., coll.) to jump a queue (orig. of
taxi-drivers): to cheat: to steal: to avoid responsibilities"
-- Chambers English Dictionary (1988)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Tired and Impatient (was Re: Dietrich, Madonna, etc.)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 21:34:02 GMT


In article <1992Oct15.195456.5968@sunova.ssc.gov>
jbaron@dirac.ssc.gov (Jeff Baron) writes:

>Does this mean that one who has a belief in tolerance for all,
>but has no tolerance for intolerant people is, him or herself,
>a hypocrite?  If one has tolerance for the intolerant, does
>that make him or her a fool?

I think this is simply sophistry.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Video source for: Red Hot Dance
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 23:09:41 GMT

will@wixer.cactus.org (Bill Staniewicz) wrote: 
->Has anyone heard of or seen the video: Red
->Hot Dance? I cant seem to locate it locally
->around here but would consider mail-order if
->I knew where to get it.

tower has it, and they do mail order; call 800 555 1212 and ask for
tower video ...

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy."  -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: astrology and YOU
Date: 11 Oct 92 14:11:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: macc.1992Oct11.141135.10829
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <92285.082819IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Ailsa N.T.
Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:

>couldn't disprove the scorpio sex obsession by ME!  *grin*

Uh-huh, sure, yeah, and all that. :-)

>(11-18-63, pisces rising, sagittarius moon)  figures jess
>would be a taurus...

I forgot to mention my moon is in Scorpio.  Zut!

>p.s. yes, this account still exists.  amazing, isn't it?

See, gawd is not dead, she's merely resting.  Nice thing,
too.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Why's It the Way It Is?
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 11:17:17 GMT


In article <2ADBA96C.10114@ics.uci.edu> tittle@ics.uci.edu
(Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:

>Also, think of how you [white males, that is] visualize all the people
>you interact with here.  Chances are, you'll assume that they're
>white, and male if the name is ambiguous.  Operating on that
>assumption, you then use your culture, your frames of references, your
>standards of sexuality (obsessing on women elsewhere, obsessing on men
>here), your sets of insults, your sets of compliments, etc, on and on,
>ad nauseum.

Please, Cindy, no editorializing (cf. _ad nauseum_ :-).

>This isn't really a flame.  I for one operate on my own assumptions
>(hence, for example my initial assumption some years ago that Jess was
>female ;-) and it's quite normal that most people *will*.

A person of only normal vanity, I will say this isn't the
first time, nor you the only person, who's paid me that
compliment.  I'm indeed a male, and I think I pay women the
respect so many men deny them by my not manifesting as a
rescuer.  If, as seems to happen, a person now and then is
not entirely sure of my gender, then I think I've managed
something else I count as worthwhile, not to sport my gender
in the foreground.  There's nothing especially wrong with
having one's gender known, but I think it does help,
precisely because of the default assumptions and the
unconscious processes that Cindy mentions earlier, to try to
make one's arguments transcend gender unless gender is the
point.

For other men who think this is a good idea too, I can offer
one big hint, though you will have to do your own devising:
think about male privilege, because as Cindy says here ...

>It's just
>that when most people are white and male, the assumptions overflow and
>fill everything up and railroad other assumptions made by nonwhite
>and/or nonmale people.  Of course, you don't notice so readily when
>they match your assumptions...

...  it's the assumptions that cloud the picture.  As
nonwhite people cannot escape the oppressive effects of the
default assumptions on the part of whites, so women cannot
escape the oppressive effects of male privilege and its
assumptions.  The connections between the privileges involved
I leave as an exercise for the reader.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Blockbuster Video rumors
Date: 9 Oct 92 00:06:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Oct9.000649.13086
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <Bvt580.4Ev@agora.rain.com> bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) 
writes:

>The rumors are untrue.
>
>They started with a column in the September edition of Alternative
>Connection, a PDX gaypaper.  The columnist reportedly saw a letter
>from BB acknowledging a contribution, but didn't dig deep enough.
>The contribution came from an individual store manager.  The OCA
>says they haven't received any contributions from BB or John David
>Griesbaum.

Yes, the OCA is completely truthful and has nothing to hid, so we should
believe what they tell us.  

That's what they'd tell us even if they had gotten money from BB.  Why hurt
the income of one of their donors? 

>Squash this one folks.  We've got enough real enemies without imagining
>more.

And, as Henry Mensch pointed out, there are other reasons not to shop at
BlockBuster. 

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
Newsgroups: soc.motss