HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 10mm Glock problems?
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:41:42 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:

#I was talking to the 'smith at the local range I frequent, and he told me
#about a worrisome possibility with Glock 10mms. 
#He said that the 10mm has been known to crack frames (which I knew), but
#that, when it happens on a Glock, you're going to get a face full of slide,
#as the part which retains the slide is exactly where the frame cracks...

#Does anybody know if this has, in fact, happened? The only review I've
#seen of the Glock 10mm stated that it passed the FBI life expectancy
#using full-house rounds instead of FBI Lite...

The Glock 20 is probably one of the strongest 10mm pistols out there.  I know
that many "smiths" don't like Glocks because there is so little that they can
do to them; very little that needs to be done to them for that matter.

The only failure of this type that I have heard of was related to a GROSSLY
overloaded round.  The estimate was something in excess of 12 grains of
Bullseye in a .45 case.  This did blow apart the frame, sending the slide
backwards.  It missed the shooter and made a real mess of the armored window
behind him (indoor range).  I understand that it did some significant damage
to his hand as well.

One of my 10mm Glocks now has slightly over 30,000 rounds through it.  Mostly
175 grain lead SWC at 1100 FPS, but I have experimented with some very hot
loads:

	200 Grain, JFP @ 1250 FPS	Kids, don't try this at home!
	155 Grain, JHP @ 1600 FPS

I also routinely function test (that's technical for shooting off the carry
magazine) 175 Grain Winchester Silvertips moving at 1300 FPS.

The gun seems none the worse for wear.

I still like the Colt, both in 10mm and .45, for some applications; but I am
becoming increasingly enamored of the Glock.

Regards,
  Barry.

-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:17:27 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:

#In article <1993Jan26.151052.258@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger) writes:
#-I have heard a semi-official, probably true rumor that Winchester has
#-yielded to law enforcement entreaties and is going to change the name
#-of the Black Talon ammo to something a defense attorney can't use for
#-his or his clients personal gain.

#Aw, that's sad..
#Maybe, though, they'll pick a name like "Baby Boomer" instead?
#	[MODERATOR:  *groan* ]

Winchester "Safety Blossoms",
"Designed with the safety of bystanders in mind"
From: lloydo@nad.3com.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trouble in MiraMesa
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:49 GMT
Organization: 3Com Corp


In article 12930@ttinews.tti.com, hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
# In article <1993Jan19.170624.15773@btree.uucp> btree!andy@UCSD.EDU (Andy Bosik) writes:
# 
# }... I rent a room a a friends house,and my friend
# }likes keeping one of my guns,a Ruger GP100
# }.357 revolver, in His room for self-protection. ...
# }... it is very
# }hard to get him to practice with any frequency. ...
# }... He also has the attitude that if He ever has
# }to use the gun for defense,He'll "Shoot em in
# }the leg!".
# 
# Sounds like your friend has some seriously unrealistic ideas about guns
# and marksmanship.  How is he about safe handling? (Do you really want to
# share a house with someone that ignorant who's armed?)
# 
# Another point:  Since the gun is yours, _you_ are legally liable for it.
# I.e.:  If your friend does something stupid with it _you_ could be sued
# for the damages.  For that reason there are _very_ few people I'd let use
# one of my guns unsupervised.  All of them are known to me to be well
# trained, knowledgeable and sensible.
# 
# The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
# Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                "If you can't stand solitude,
# 3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  perhaps others find you boring
# Santa Monica, CA  90405                        as well."  -- Mark Twain


In California, isn`t the loan of any firearm (appart from immediate family) considered a transfer of possesion and therefore subject to registration and a 15 day wait?  If there is ever any altercation involving the said revolver, couldn`t a felony charge be made against you as a supplier of the gun on this basis?  

I've been reluctant to let anyone else shoot my battle rifles ever since this latest tranfer law passed.  You never know who else is at the range watching.

I don`t wish to become a "test case".  Or, to lose the rifle in order to avoid court trials.


Anyone know for certain?  I don't have the California Manifesto handy.

Lloyd
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 24 Jan 93 03:32:46 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <C18z76.DMz@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
#Factory loads are, in point of fact, often more powerful than handloads.

True, and the original question raised the wrong objection.  The usual
legal issue is said to be that the prosecution can make you out as
"obsessed" with guns if you "roll your own deadly ammo", as part of
painting a picture of you as bloodthirsty and looking for an excuse to
kill/wound.  Of course we know better but we're not the jury.

#I can't see the caliber making any difference at all;

.357 Magnum has some excellent defense loads.  Most .44 Magnum loads
on the other hand are inappropriate for many defense scenarios
(although if it's all you have, you use it, but the point is you
should not have deliberately chosen to acquire it for such purposes),
being seriously overpenetrative which not only reduces stopping
capacity but also increases the hazard to bystanders.  Thus use of a
"hand cannon" instead of a more effective caliber can again be turned
against you in court.  On the other hand, no matter what the facts of
the case are, prosecution can make an attempt to twist and otherwise
misinterpret them.  Your best defense is to have made the most
rational, justifiable choices before, during, and after the
incident.

On the "don't leave fingerprints on the brass" issue, it doesn't LOOK
good for you to be worrying about such things, and that in itself may
work against you in a self-defense trial.
From: jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: higher capacity magazines for .45's
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:37:35 GMT
Organization: Dell Computer Co

I made a call to Eagle International Inc. about their "Alpha-Mag 45" 9 round
mag for 1911 style .45's.  The good news is they claim it holds 9, and only 
extends about an 1/8" below the frame, and included in that is the base-pad.
The bad news is they're back-ordered for three weeks.  (Most mail-order outfits
tend to have a multiplier of 2x on backorder, so I'm guessing it's really 
closer to 6 weeks).  Since they're backed up, I'm hoping that means someone
out there has tried one of these and can post comments about fit/quality/etc.

I'm curious how they manage to squeeze 9 rounds into the magazine, and still
just barely extend below the frame.  Also, if anyone knows of alternatives
to the above product, I would be interested in hearing about those also.

-- 
Randy Howard            _o	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
Dell Computer Corp.     \<,	    !'s: ...!uunet!dellunix!jrh
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, 
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H. L. Mencken
From: jdg00@ccc.amdahl.com (Josh Grosse)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W loads???
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:59:17 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation


jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

#As I mentioned, I bought a Glock 23 (small .40 S&W) last fall.  Has anyone
#seen any "good" loads for this caliber?  I have a local source (Miller)
#for very hard 200 gr. LSWC?  If possible, I would like to match the recoil
#(and accuracy) of some of the popular JHP loads (Silvertip, Corbon, etc.).

I've worked up what I think are fairly accurate (for me, anyway) loads
in 155 FMJ and 170 SWC, using Accurate Arms #5.  One of the guys in
my pistol league likes Winchester Super Field, but I haven't tried it.

My Glock 22 jammed religiously on the last round in every magazine with the
SWC until I seated the bullets to the SW40 maximum overall length (1.135").

#I have ordered a Glock 20 (10mm) as well.  Is there a reason why they
#designed these 2 cartridges with different size primers?  Does anyone make
#brass for one or the other that uses the same size primers as the other?

The SW40 uses small pistol primers by design.  If they used large primers,
the ejector might come in contact with the primer of a live round.

The 10mm uses a large pistol primer in order to obtain consistancy with 
interior ballistics.  You could certainly trim a 10mm case down to 40SW
length, but you'd risk "accidental" discharge due to ejector location.
(I put quotes around "accidental" for a reason.)  Also, your internal
pressures in a 40 with large primer would be different than in any
published loading data that I've seen.  Not that I've seen a lot, but
every bit I've seen has used standard small pistol primers.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                                jdg00@amail.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp.                               313-358-4440
Southfield, Michigan
From: DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: in search of a Python...
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:02:03 GMT
Organization: University of Alabama English Dept.

Randy Howard:

Try asking around. Your local FFL can find you a dealer if he looks
hard enough. The only potential problem I can see that you might have
is if Colt has just stopped making the Python in 8" BSTS. Don't think
they have, but I know they have really slowed production on a lot of
their guns, particularly the Python and Anaconda. Seems wholesalers
don't like to keep big ticket items in inventory that rarley sell. I
tried to find one of those "Ultimate Pyhtons" a few years ago,
or what ever they were. Supposed to come in a rosewood box, some
different grips, all kinds of goodies. Marched down to my local
dealer and he tried for 8 months to find one, but never could.
Finally I called Colt and they said the'd be happy to put me on a
waiting list, but that they couldn't gurantee when the gun would be
built and shipped. And they wanted a downpayment. Nope. Not until I
see the gun.....
From: callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: good, bad, & ugly
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:40:52 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

Man, oh, man, I just saw the purtiest pistol I do believe I've ever
seen: an Armolloy'd Thompson Contender...Whoa, momma!
:-)

			James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is this corrosion?......
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:50:02 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <23JAN199308595750@zeus.tamu.edu> mjm3170@zeus.tamu.edu (MATTSON, MATTHEW JUL) writes:
#I have a shooting buddy that recently asked me to post a question to the
#group to see if anybody out there could help him.
#He has noticed that his FEDERAL 9mm ammunition has a greenish, stick 
#residue left on it after a few days on duty (police officer) and was wondering
#if anyone knew what was causing it.
#
It's corrosion.

#At first I thought it was corrosion, but he tells me that it wipes off with
#a clean rag and does not pit the casing of the round.
#
verdigris wipes off easily but it's still corrosion.

#Could this be a reaction with the chemicals in his leather holster, etc.?

Yes, it's common. Leave them unattended long enough and you won't be
able to separate them from the belt. 


-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 | If the media interpreted the 2nd Amendment the way they do the 1st |
 +----------------we would be REQUIRED to own guns!-------------------+
From: greig@cs.tulane.edu (David C. Greig)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 9mm Ruger Reloads
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:43 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA





I recently purchased a Ruger P89 (9mm) and was wanting to get some
recommendations from the net on good (moderately hot) reloads.

Also, I'd like some feedback on what anyone has heard about this
particular gun.

David Greig
greig@sinbad.cs.tulane.edu
From: gary%ke4zv.uucp@mathcs.emory.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: brass guns??
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:59:21 GMT
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems

In article <1993Jan14.172501.10256@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#What are the properties of brass vs standard zinc "capgun
#and 25acp alloy" potmetal?
#
#I assume there is a strength difference, and hopefully there
#is a cost advantage over steel.    This would be cast and low
#volume.

Steel is cheaper per pound than brass. Of course brass is easier
to cast cheaply due to it's lower melting point. Brass can be
sand cast, one of the cheaper processes. Normal cast steel is 
brittle and subject to voids, but special "powder metallurgy" 
high pressure castings can be very strong and cast to very precise 
tolerances, reducing or eliminating the need for machining.

Steel is also easier to machine than brass. There is a special brass 
alloy called "free machining" that turns ok, but normal brass is a
bitch to turn. It's soft enough to work easily with hand tools, however,
while production work with steel is best done with power machinery.

Brass is available with tensile strength up to 170,000 pounds so it
can successfully be used in firearms. However, it is a "stretchy"
material and that must be considered anywhere close tolerances must
be maintained.

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     |
From: cvakg001@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SIG Sauer P226: Walther??
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:33 GMT
Organization: California State Polytechnic University, Pomona

#>Now, if only it wasn't almost twice as expensive as most of its
competitors...


#Think of it as only half the cost of a Walther. (-:

Are you speaking of the Walther 88?  If, so, have you shot one?

I am considering the purchase of a hi-cap 9mm. My preference is to the walther
for it's well claimed accuracy, but due to the cost, even at the price I can
get one for is an issue. I am also considering the SIG 226 and the glock 17,
and  maybe even a HK P7 for I pefer ambidextrous. The local gunshops and ranges
have little info on the Walther other than it's accuracy. If some of the 9mm
guru's could shed a little light on the Walther, it could be helpful. What I'm
looking for, is the usual- accuracy, longevity, cleaning, feeding, availibility
and cost of parts, and overall performance.

Has any body out there shot one? 
Are there any ranges in the Greater Los Angeles area where I could rent one?
Does anybody know if Walther makes or is planning to make a 10mm?
 
---
John Ringloff
Email: cvakg001@vmsa.is.csupomona.edu
From: jdigroup@ccmail.orst.edu (Jim Ingle's Research Group)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: re: Air gun postal matches
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:10:38 GMT
Organization: Chemistry Department, OSU, Corvallis, OR  97331-4003


Jaro-

The matches that I've been part of make no distinctions so far as 
limitations on participation, so long as you are a member of some sort of 
national organisation (maybe not even that!). Competition is open class, 
usually, with juniors sometimes separate. Competitors come from everywhere 
the match has been heard of- there were a bunch of Irish folk (Ulster?) in 
Don's last match. (They also topped the scoresheet.)

Air matches are either 20 shots, 40 shots or more rarely the regulation 60 
shots. Targets may be sent to you predated, but often you just use your own 
and send in the scores by a prearranged date. You are encouraged to preshoot 
a couple of matches in case of illness, but you can usually miss one match (
or one score gets dropped in the end). In Don's current affair valid scores 
can be taken from any other match you happened to attend.

I have to admit that I haven't shot a FWB rifle (pity!). My decision to look 
for an Anschutz is based on several points:
-Most top shooters get rid of the FWB sights anyway, in favor of the 
Anschutz.
-FWB guns of any type are murder to find used in the US right now.
-My coach (Hannele Kanerva, for any Finns out there) has one that I use 
right now, and I think it was recommended to her by her coach, Kurt Thune.

If I could find a used FWB for the same price as a Anschutz, it would be 
down at the range in under an hour, getting a serious inspection!

I'll pass on your message to Don at the state UIT championships this 
weekend, if he's there.

Trent Hering
Oregon State U.
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norinco 1911 vs Springfield
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:49:59 GMT
Organization: who knows

<1jk230INN1n6@tamsun.tamu.edu>, hmueller@orca.tamu.edu (Hal Mueller) writes...
#The consensus of private responses to my query seems to be that the Norinco
#price was outrageously high, and that the Springfield prices were somewhat
#low.  The Norinco becomes a reasonable choice only if it's sold at a much 
#better price ($300 or less, new). 

At the last show that I attended, the Norincos were priced at $270.
From: jamaass@bluemoon.use.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Target .22 Recomendations
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:56:52 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])

archon@world.std.com (Timothy P Szczesuil) writes:

# 
# My SO and I are starting out with target .22s before moving on to
# larger calibers.  We've taken the NRA Basic Pistol and developed a
# fondness for one-handed shooting.  We are quite close to purchasing
# a Smith & Wesson Model 422 (6 in. barrel) and a Mitchell Arms 
# Sharpshooter Auto Pistol.  My cheap choice would be a Magnum Research
# Mountain Eagle.  I would appriciate any information regarding these 
# models or a recommendation of a good quality target .22 in the <$400 
# price range.


Look at the Browning Buckmark Target 5.5 models. They use a heavy
1-inch bull barrel, and I find them quite comfortable with good 
triggers out-of-the-box. 

Also look at the Ruger Mark II Target model they came out with
recently (in the past year). Also reputed to be quite nice.

I think you'll learn to dislike the S&W 422 if you do much target
shooting with it...

If you can find a S&W Model 41 used for < $400, snap it up!


Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
Powell OH (NW of Columbus)         Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
From: julian@bongo.tele.com (Julian Macassey)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: DeLisle Carbine - Information.
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:11:04 GMT
Organization: The hole in the wall. Hollywood

In article <1993Jan27.175540.29423@csd.uwe.ac.uk> th2_oate@csd.uwe-bristol.ac.uk (Tom Oates) writes:
#In article <3863.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> ben.sansing@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Ben Sansing) writes:
#
##Does anyone know where I could find detailed plans/specs/info regarding
##the DeLisle carbine? 
 deleted
#It's been done before. During the 1980s, a company called 'Law Enforcement
#International' of the UK started remaking them. 
  deleted
#I don't know if LEI are still in existence or their address. Perhaps if 
#you consulted the relevant 'Janes' book - start with the '92 edition and then 
#work back. 

	I found this weapon in "Jane's Security and Co-In Equipment"
1990-91 edition. Page 123.

	There is a picture of a plain looking bolt action repeater. It
looks like a Lee Enfield Mk V, except it has a very thick barrel. It
is shown with a bi-pod and scope.

Text:
	Law Enforcement International Ltd., P.O. Box 830, Maida Vale,
London W9 1QJ. Tel: 071-372-5212 Fax: 071-625-4835 TX:9401-1601 LEIL G

.45ACP De Lisle Mark 3 Silenced Rifle

This weapon based on the wartime De Lisle silenced carbine, is a fully
silenced sniping rifle using standard .45 ACP ammunition. This
eliminates the need for special subsonic ammunition since the velocity
is below that of sound. The silencer assembly consists of a match
grade, ported barrel followed by a series of conical baffles and an
expansion chamber. The rifle has an effective range of 300 metres,
though this can be increased by using high velocity +P ammunition
which delivers a muzzle velocity of 328 m/s. This ammunition can only
be used with the De Lisle, since the chamber pressure is over 10 tons
per square inch. The weapon is quite accurate, with group sizes of
under 50 mm regularly obtained at 100m range using standard ball
ammunition. The silencer is particularly effective, with the only
noise being little more than the firing pin striking the cap. The
standard .303 magazine has been permanently modified by fitting a cut
down .45 pistol magazine inside it. Upon retacting the bolt, the fired
cartridge case rides over the next cartridge and falls into the void
behind.

DATA
Cartridge: .45 ACP
Operation: Bolt-action repeating rifle
Feed: 4 shot box magazine
Weight: 3.7kg without sights
Length: 960mm
Barrel: 210 mm 
Muzzle velocity: 260 m/s
Muzzle energy: 504 J
Max effective range: 300 m



End 
Note: These people also make a silenced automatic pistol. It is a
modified Ruger Mk II .22. They also make silencers.
-- 
Julian Macassey at bongo. julian@bongo.tele.com Voice: (213) 653-4495
Paper Mail: 742 1/2 North Hayworth Avenue, Hollywood, California 90046-7142
From: decvax!av8r!pbodmer@uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com (Paul Bodmer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 7mm Mausers
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:51 GMT
Organization: Daniel Webster College, Nashua, NH



	I an looking for any one who uses an older mauser for
sillouette competition. I am currently rebarrelling my mauser with an
origional new condition barrel. I plan to use sierra's 160 Gr. gameking
and accurate arms powder. If anyone out there has any experiance
please e-mail me. 

						Thank You

					 	 PAUL A. BODMER



-- 
    Yesterdays magick is todays science and tomorows technology.               
                                      My words are my own and none other.
                                      ^^           ^^         ^^^^ ^^^^^
     pbodmer@av8r.uucp    or   av8r!pbodmer@decvax.dec.com
From: toby@stein.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Wanted: .308 varmint bullet suggestions
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:14 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

The Nosler 125gr Ballistic Tip works well on varmints out of a
.308.  Even starlings are big enough to give good expansion.
Penetration is adequate for deer and antelope in my experience,
too.  BTs in my buddy's .308 PSS group well under 0.5MOA at
100 yards.

Toby Bradshaw
Department of Biochemistry and College of Forest Resources
University of Washington, Seattle
toby@u.washington.edu

"A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of
a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall
not be infringed." Do you conclude from this that only voters may own books?