From: wjeuerle@athena.mit.edu (William J Euerle)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.college,soc.college
Subject: Re: Fraternities  was (Re: still more practical jokes
Date: 10 Apr 92 00:21:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: athena.1992Apr10.002112.23394
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

>>*Sigh*. Here we go again. O-kay, I'm going to say this one more time...
>>*are* you listening carefully?
>>All fraternities are different. Al men *in* fraternities are different. Each
>>human being is unique. You are making a generalization. I am a fraternity man.
> 
> My generalizations are based on my experiences.  I *know* what men say about
> women when no women are present.  I know what attitudes are expressed.  I have
> *seen* drunk fraternity members with drunk women talking very disrepectfully
> about the women present...(how they were going to fuck them, etc...)  I have 
> heard mysoginst drinking song lyrics sung by fraternity members.  I have seen
> pictures of women drawn by fraternity members with fanged mouths for genitalia.
> In short, I have seen plenty of disrespect for women voiced and otherwise 
> indicated by fraternity members, while I have seen very little real indications
> of respect by the same.  Plenty of lip service, buy little real respect.

Unfortunately, a good portion of what you say is correct, but alot of what you
say really isn't specific to fraternities, but to males in general.  However, any
sweeping statement made about fraternities is, by virtue of its generality, is
bound to be incorrect, or at least have many counterexamples.  I know that
myself, as a member of a fraternity, try very hard to avoid the bias that you are
talking about.  I DON'T respect everybody, however, I always give ANYONE the
opportunity to show that I should respect them.  If they deserve it, I do develop
respect for them.

 
>>I respect *everyone*. I try to remember that everyone is unique; everyone
>> is defined be a million different experiences. Some of those are related to
>>sex. I respect tose experiences, and the differences they bring. Have I made
>>myself *quite* clear, or shall I tattoo it on your forehead so you can read
>>it every day?
>>
>You are quite the man if you truly can respect *everyone*.  If only we could
>all remember that everyone has much to contribute to life....

So true . . . ..

>>> It is nearly impossible to rid one's self of racism without having a good
>>> friend of a race other than your own.  Only in this way can you hear opinions
>>> and views from a person who's life experience is vastly different than your own.
>>> And only if this person is your friend, usually, can you respect such views
>>> different than your own.  The same goes for tolerating people of different
>>> cultures, religions, and also of different sexes.
>>
>>Maybe you should get rid of that classist attitude. Get a few fraternity friends
>>and *then* make a judgment. Even then, you will be making a silly and inaccurate
>>generalization, but at lease that judgement has a hope in hell of being 
>>slightly closer to the mark. I think anyone can see the hipocracy evident in
>>your posting. You apparently have no fraternity friends, you are making 
>>judgements and heresay, yet you give advice like the above. Maybe you should
>>practice what you preach.
> 
> Quite clever of you to point out this shortcoming in my argument....I only was
> close to a guy who was courted strongly by a fraternity, but turned it down....
> However, saying that *you* or *your fraternity* is totally angelic and all
> respecting, does not prove that my 'generalization' is 'silly and innaccurate.'
> As I have stated, even I have seen many examples of fraternities promoting
> the ideal of women-as-sex-object, and never the ideal of woman-as-human-being.
> Granted, this is a problem with men in general, but would you be willing to say
> that the majority of fraternities manage to overcome this tendency, despite
> an environment that promotes close friendships with other men over close friendships with women?

yes, but by knowing one member of a race, can you say that you KNOW and RESPECT
the whole race? can you by knowing 20, 100, 1000?  You are still looking at just
a small part of the race.  By the same token, by knowing people from 4, 5, or 20
fraternities can you say you know how they all are?  

>>I find this ludicrous (sp?) and insulting. I have a load of female 
>>friends, but even if I didn't, my lack of female friends would not 
>>necessarily mean I didn't respect women. The bond I formed ith my brothers is 
>>different entirly from the bonds I form with my other friends; the bonds I form
>>with each of my friends is different from the bonds I have with all my other 
>>friends. Each bond of friendship is different. Each boerhood is different.
>>If you have exactly the same relationship with each of your friends, you must 
>>lead a boring life.
> 
> Of course I never said that you have to have exacty the same relationship will
> (with) each of your friends, but this is besides the point.  You say that if you
> did not have any female friends, you would not necessarily disrespect women.  I
> claim that a normal american male will disrespect women and tend to think of 
> them as objects unless something occurs, like a close friendship, to lead him
> otherwise.  This is a product of ages and ages of male dominated society.  Women
> in mass media are portrayed more often than not as merely objects; look closely
> at the next beer commercial if you don't believe me.  It takes something to
> overcome this ingrained ignorance....how can you learn to overcome it if you
> surround yourself with men who grew up in the same women-objectifying atmosphere
> as yourself?   To put it more generally, how can you learn to see other points
> of view if you only live with people who see it the same as you?  If there is
> much more contact with men than with women every single day, how can you come
> out with a balanced view?  I don't deny that it is possible, and hey, you may
> be more well adjusted than I am, but following my reasoning here, how can you
> say that the majority of fraternity men can learn to respect women simply by
> living in a fraternity?

Well, clearly there is everything before going to college.  My attitudes towards
other cultures, races, and the opposite sex were pretty solid going into college.
 If anything, I am even more open to other cultures (etc) now than before, seeing
how stupid and biased other people can be.  I think I have made my beliefs clear
to my brothers, and I think my openness has affected at least one, for the
better.  I wish you would stop using the term majority.  I though we are dealing
with individuals (people) here.  Well, since the majority of MIT is male (about
60-70%), men must be smarter than women.  (I don't believe this, of course)


>>Pledge a fraternity. Make your desision about *that* *Particular* fraternity.
>>Stop making silly generalizations. You are as bad as the sexist people you
>>are trying (pathetically) to slam.
> 
> Well, sexist people deserve slamming....   I have made my decision about enough
> particluar fraternities to feel able to generalize it this way....

As generally open-minded as I am, I do feel that there are valid reasons for
separate organizations for men and women (as social groups, not on any sort of
professional/career level).  Just keep in mind that any generalization you make
is (bound to be) wrong some of the time.  

>>I'm sorry this is so insulting, but I get a little upset when people make
>>a judgement about em when they have never met me. It's part of the reason I
>>try not to do the same.
> 
> That's nice of you.  Although you did call me 'stupid' or some such earlier.
> In any case, I am not offended.  I do hope you actually are different....