HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:32:24 GMT

marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:

>>>Danny, the issue here is that those Arabs of Israel (Palestinians) have been
>>>living in Ramya for generations.

>>I just asked an Israeli Arab about that, and he pointed out that,
>>although he wasn't sure exactly how long those Arabs had been living
>>in Ramya, they were Bedouins and therefore could not have been living
>>there all that long.  His best estimate was maybe 30-40 years.  So
>>much for "living in Ramya for generations."

>Let me correct both of you ... Bedwins usually live in the deserts, 
>and usually they do not have farming as their main buissiness. You
>would rarely find bedwins in the fertile lands of north galleli, 
>though you might probably find them in southern palestine like the
>Negev desert ...

Precisely my point, and the point of the Israeli Arab I spoke with:
Because they were Bedouins, they obviously could not have been there
for the generations that various anti-Israel propagandists have been
claiming. 

>I think that there is some misunderstanding/forgering on either your
>part or the one whom you told this story on behalf ... Please clarify.

The misunderstanding is on your part.  Consider it clarified.

>DO NOT TRY TO TELL US THAT THE ARABS DID NOT LIVE THEIR FOR GENERATIONS.
>THEY WERE THERE BEFORE THE EUROPEAN ZIONISTS CAME AND THAT IS A FACT.

Some were;  most weren't.  There was a tremendous amount of migration,
both in and out of Palestine and surrounding areas, especially since
Palestine held no special attraction to Arabs until the Zionist return.

>STOP FALSIFYING VERY WELL KNOWN FACTS.

Excellent advice.  I hope you'll start taking it.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:50:28 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

anne@techunix.technion.ac.il (Anne Weill) writes:

>marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:


>>Let me correct both of you ... Bedwins usually live in the deserts,
>>and usually they do not have farming as their main buissiness. You
>>would rarely find bedwins in the fertile lands of north galleli,
>>though you might probably find them in southern palestine like the
>>Negev desert (before the nuclear boms were installed there).

>When I did my M.Sc. , I was with a student of Bedouin origin 
>from Shibli ( a Bedouin village on Mount Tabor) and there are 
>several Bedouin villages in this area. They are mostly working    
>in agriculture.

Agriculture and villages make the definitions of Peasants not bedwins.
By definition Bedwins are group of people that do not stay in one
place and do not take agriculture as their *main* resourse. Though
that does not mean that some bedwins do get themselfs settled in 
a village and start the agriculture buisness but most people seize
to call them bedwins at that point.
 
> but retained Bedouin customs , usually at weddings

Precisely my point.

>or other religious ceremonies. Maybe Marwan could tell us from 
>where his information is ?

From my experience ... Please correct me if I am wrong.

>	     Anne  , CS, Technion, Haifa


______________________________________________________________________________
                                                                             _
Marwan Gharaybeh:                         ||                               _(_ 
                                          ||               | |               |
Better Known as ...                       ||    ()         | |               |
                                          ||           _   | |      .-     | |
Hadi el-gossah gossat hamdah ...          ||      \___/ \__/ |      (_|____/ |
Hamdah, el-rimsh elly yitehaddah ...      ||       |  \_/    |        |      |
galat mareedak ...                        ||  \___/      /   |   \___/    *  |
mareedak, lo tethbahnee be`eedak mareedak.||            /
===============================================================================
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Taif and Syrian withdrawal
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 04:43:15 GMT

In article <1es7l9INNlgh@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

# In article 2399@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >In article <1epoh6INN5ps@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

# ># In article 10417@nysernet.org, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

# ># >To add to the humor, they also have no apparent desire to resist the
# ># >Arab terrorists who have destroyed their country and whos attacks on
# ># >Israeli civilians are the only reason Israel ever came in to begin with.

# ># Speaking of humour, nearly ten years after the Israeli principals 
# ># publically acknowledged the real purpose behind the 1982 invasion,
# ># some brave souls are still stoically holding on to the original
# ># public pronouncements.  Unbelievable, but true.
 
# ># I'm running short of time.  Practically any book on the 1982 war will
# ># set you straight on why Israel did it.  Try Rabinovich, Schiff, etc..
 
# >	Brendam, you can say anything you want about "humor" or
# >"unbelievable".  However, if you talk to the victims of those attacks
# >you will be forced to come to the conclusion that either the original
# >pronouncements were at least the major reason behind the invasion, or
# >Israeli politicians were naive in not taking them into account (which
# >means that Likud would have been voted out of office specifically for
# >not addressing the reasons behind the original pronouncements had
# >there not been an invasion for any reason).
 
# There is only one David 'makowsky?'.  Using the force of Pure Logic
# alone, he has swept aside an entire library shelf written by mere
# historians.  Who needs to consult a book when the great 'makowsky?'
# is nearby?
 
# If anyone wants to take up the topic in a serious manner I will 
# respond likewise (within time constraints).  Otherwise, no way.
 
	Typical Brendan nonsense.  I did not sweep away anything.  I did
not deny anything contained in any of those books.  I merely stated a
fact which is quite easy to verify.  Do you deny it?  As for mere
historians, if they got it wrong they got it wrong.  If they got it
right they got it right.  The fact that they are "mere historians" has
nothing to do with it.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Date: 21 Nov 92 19:21:12 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Nov19.160231.12468@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>
>How can Israel divert even one drop from the East Bank?  The East Bank
>(of the Jordan River) is on the other side of the river from the West
>Bank  --  by definition!

Don't you know Jake?  According to the Arab-Zionist Conspiracy Theory,
there is an underground pipe going through the West Bank!  Why do you
think the IDF units, dressed as Arabs and also known as the Death
Squads, are so effective at silencing those voicing their protest?
 
>What a dope!

Perhaps you need a little to see the whole *logic* of this situation!

Anisa  :-)

P.S.  In case you missed it, read with sarcasm ...

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: Taif and Syrian withdrawal
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:58:07 GMT
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University

In article <1992Nov19.165241.20770@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

|> Does anyone have details on why (other than they enjoy dominating
|> smaller, weaker countries) Syria is staying, and what reasons they are
|> announcing for it?
|> 
|> Adam

This was posted to s.c.l. (thanks to Ayman Kayssi)

My opinion:

Syria does not intend to let go of Lebanon and will always find
"creative" rationales in order to legalize its occupation.

Basil 

________________________________________________________________________

Subject: Syria Puts Conditions to Withraw from Lebanon

	BEIRUT (UPI) -- Syria suggested Tuesday it may be a long way from
removing its troops from Lebanon, saying that only could happen after
the Beirut government eliminates its system of official religious
division.
	Syrian Vice President Abdel Halim Khaddam, in remarks carried by the
pro-Syrian As Safir newspaper, also denied evidence Iran might have an
interest in expanding its influence in Lebanon.
	Khaddam said that under the 1989 Lebanese peace accord that helped
end 16 years of civil war, the issue of the phased Syrian pullout was to
be discussed ``two years after (Lebanese) political reforms are approved
constitutionally.''
	``The main issue in these reforms focus on canceling confessionalism,
'' he said, referring to the Lebanese political system that distributes
public posts between Muslims and Christians along sectarians lines.
	``This article has not yet been discussed and no constitutional
measures have been adopted in this regard,'' Khaddam said in the
interview with the Paris-based Monte Carlo radio station.
	``Therefore, the issue of Syrian withdrawal is mainly linked to a
Syrian guarantee for a large number of Lebanese to approve all these
reforms,'' he said.
	The new Lebanese parliament elected this summer was ``equally divided
between Muslims and Christians (who) in turn will take measures to
abolish confessionalism,'' Khaddam said.
	Khaddam said he did not believe Iran's presence in Lebanon and the
attacks against Israel by its proxy Hezbollah militia in southern
Lebanon would affect the Lebanese peace accord signed in Taif, Saudi
Arabia.
	``We believe that Iran is not trying to have influence in Lebanon,''
he said. ``Tehran has ties with some Lebanese but not within the
framework of maintaining influence in this country.''
	He said Hezbollah was among other Lebanese factions fighting the
Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon. ``This is a legitimate right for
every citizen in any country,'' he said.
	``If the French people had the right to resist the Nazi occupation,
why it is not the right of the Lebanese to resist the Israelis?''
Khaddam said.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:37:13 GMT

v053qhyx@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Jeremy A Berger) writes:


>Actually...the Zionists/Jews lived there way before the ARABS.. the European 
>Jews would not have been European jews had they been left alone in biblical
>times in their "Palestine"... The Jews were expelled from THEIR land.. only
>to be forced to migrate to Europe..
>            Jeremy

The anti-Israel argument seems to be that descendents of people who
were kicked out of Eretz Yisrael a long time ago have no right to be
there, but that descendents of those who kicked them out have the
right to be there, and that people who voluntarily left a short time
ago after living there a short time have the right to kick out the
descendents of those who were kicked out a long time ago.

I know--it doesn't make any sense.  But most of the world seems to
fall for it.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Date: 17 Nov 92 09:44:51 GMT
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Edward A Shnekendorf (eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
: 
: >Syria and Lebanon were planning to built a dam on certain tributaries to the 
: >Jordan river in 1964. Israel could not afford that to happen, and in the name
: >of security invaded Syria and took the Golan Heights. Every one fell for that
: >scheme the same way they have fallen for it in South Lebanon.
: 
: I suppose Israel was just supposed to sit around and let the Syrians divert the
: headwaters of the Jordan River so that they [the Israelis] could die of thirst.
 Turky has already done that with the Ataturk dom on the Euphrates and another
one on the Kwaik river which (for thousands of years, but no more) irrigated
the biggest city of northern Syria : Aleppo. Turky turned a deaf ear to all
the objections formulated by Syria & Iraq about the diasterous consequences of
these dom on the agriculture & Energy in the two countries. Do you suggest that
we go and attack Turky, go as far as the Euphrates sources and occupy them ?.
: 
: >A.Faris
From: marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Sentencing in Jordan
Date: 22 Nov 92 08:32:34 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>Israel is very, very far from totalitarian - as I think we both know.

Yes to its own people ... However, Israel is Natzi germani for
the real owners of the land. It confiscates the lands, it butshers
6 year olds and suppresses the right of the "right" owners of the
land to even have any control over their destiney ... That is your

--Marwan
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Another Missed Opportunity
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 17:01:41 GMT

In article <1e4kihINN2f3@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

# In article 4966@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >In article <1dijq5INNdgj@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
# ># Haha, I guess you didn't li[k]e the line "Jewish terrorists copied Arab
# ># terrorists", eh?  Btw, FTI says Deir Yassin was on the highway too.

# >	What line?  Not that I care.
 
# p354 and p387, respectively.

	Of which?  FTI or M&F (NOT THAT I CARE).
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Date: 18 Nov 92 08:11:44 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

In article <1992Nov17.210335.27283@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au writes:
> Israel wanted that war so badly that it would have invaded Syria regardless.
> Fortunately for Israel, you had people like Golda Meyer and Moshe Dyan who
> were patient and allow the Arabs to make a mistake.

Do you have proof that Israel wanted that war badly? If Israel went to war in
67 it did not need to wait for the Arabs to make a mistake. It would therefore
be at war every day!
 
> Israel invaded Lebanon in 82 because it wanted south Lebanon and could not
Do you have proof that Israel wanted south Lebanon? It is not because it kept
a presence that it wanted it. If it kept a presence in the south it is more
likely because it did not achieve security for the North of Israel. If it had
it wouldn't be there now.

> wait for another war since the Arabs became smarter and avoided conflicts
> at all cost.
Are you implying that Arabs were stupid?

> A.Faris


Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not recieve this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Malik Shabazz, Islam and Anti-Semitism...
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 04:18:40 +0100
Organization: "The Private Site of Manfredo Tichauer"

adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

> In fact, no country, to the best of my knowledge, guarantees equal
> rights to any person of any nationality.  If a person residing in the
> United States tries to get a job, they can, quite rightly, be denied
> that job if they are not an American citizen (and don't have a green
> card.)  If they are refused the job of grounds of race or religion,
> they are being illegally descriminated against.

1.  This is completely wrong.  Any foreigner living in other country than
    his own and holds a visa AND a working permit, has the same rights as
    the  nationals  of  the country where he is living with just only two
    exceptions: he can't vote and can't do the military service. At least
    this valid in all the west european countries I know (quite a lot)and
    in North, Central and South America (even USA). I think just in Israel
    a permanent resident  (oficially not an emigrant)  is compelled to go  
    to the army after some time  (I don't know how much) living in Israel,
    but still without having the right to vote. If I am wrong, please co-
    rrect me, but please don't flame.

2.  As much as I know (in USA) : no green card, no job.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Malik Shabazz, Islam and Anti-Semitism...
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:27:23 GMT

lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney) writes:
#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

###Again a meaningless statistic.  There are Arabs in the Israeli
###parliament, but they are systematically exluded from any position
###of authority.

##Like the two deputy ministers in the current government?

#Could you name them please.  I recently read in the NYT that Arab MKs
#are excluded from parliamentary committees dealing even remotely with
#national defense.

Sorry, I don't remember the names. One is from RATZ and one from Labor.
Maybe someone in Israel can dig up the names and their respective
roles.

#BTW, Yeshiva students, who are exmempt from service, somehow still get
#these benefits.

That is a fact that nearly all Israelis find infuriating and vigorously
protest. Unfortunately that's how the political system in Israel
works, with the religious parties exorting the state for benefits.

#I wish Israel no ill will.  But as someone who was raised on Zionist
#mythology, I feel obliged to present a more realistic picture.

A lot of your critisicm is valid. I can only hope things improve.
Certainly, an improvement in Israel's external status would help
push internall modifications.

-Danny Keren.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Malik Shabazz, Islam and Anti-Semitism...
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:53:14 GMT
	<1992Nov20.201611.10272@das.harvard.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: adam@endor.uucp's message of 20 Nov 92 20:16:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.201611.10272@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
> In article <22921@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >In article <1992Nov16.142553.15082@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
> >> The declaration of independance does include something like a bill of
> >> rights, but I agree it is not a good enough substitute.
>
> >The Israeli declaration of independece does not really include much in
> >the way of a statement of civil rights.  It states that all citizens of
> >the state will treated equally without regard to sex, religion, race,
> >and a few other characteristics which I don't recall right now.  The
> >declaration does not have the force of law, but in recent years the
> >Israeli Supreme Court (noting the absence of any law guaranteeing
> >freedoms and rights) has used it to infer some of the rights typically
> >associated with a democratic state, e.g., the freedom to demonstrate,
> >and more.  One glaring ommission from the declaration, and certainly not
> >an unintended oversight, is any reference to equality irrespective of
> >*nationality* (le'om).  That would appear to be the matter under
> >discussion here.
>
> In fact, no country, to the best of my knowledge, guarantees equal
> rights to any person of any nationality.  If a person residing in the
> United States tries to get a job, they can, quite rightly, be denied
> that job if they are not an American citizen (and don't have a green
> card.)

One would have thought this should have been clear, but I guess nothing
can be taken for granted on TPM.

I was talking about equality only among *citizens* of Israel.  Israel,
distinguishes between citizenship (e.g., Israeli, Canadian, ...) and
nationality (Jewish, Arab).  The Israeli declaration of independence
declares (without having the force of law, though) that Israel will not
discriminate based on sex, religion, and other characteristics, but does
*not* declare that Israel will not discriminate based on nationality
(i.e., based on whether someone is a Jew or an Arab).

Clear now?
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: The Messiah of Transfer
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:45:37 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: dzk@cs.brown.edu's message of 18 Nov 92 15:18:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.151823.12255@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
> The hailing of the Lubavitcher as the Messiah is completely rejected
> by the majority of religious Jews and by the religious establishment
> in Israel and abroad. Most people see it as a farce.
>
> Same for Ba-Gad, who belongs to a small party (3 members). 

You really think you can wiggle out of this so easily?  You know very
well that Chabad is an organization of considerable influence in Israel
(and in the Jewish community in the US, too, for that matter).  Its
leaders are courted and consulted by major Israeli politicians on a
regular basis.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 01:09:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.163321.13082@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> 
|> "The Arabs became smarter and avoided conflicts at all cost"???
|> You must mean like the Intifada in Jordan in which nearly 10,000
|> people were killed in one month, the PLO invading Lebanon, Iraq
|> attacking Iran, Iraq overruning and raping Kuwait, the PLO and Hamas
|> assasinating each other inside Israel in their own InterFada...  One
|> shudders to think what it might be like if the Arabs WEREN'T so
|> careful to avoid conflict. 
|> 

Great peice of propaganda to diverge away from the real point.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast