From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: Re: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
Summary: Don't insult other people and nations
Date: 11 Jan 93 10:59:20 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1993Jan10.201248.21241@sci.ccny.cuny.edu> branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis) writes:
>The latest exchanges on the Macedonian issue among Bulgarian netters
>indicated the rise of an old "irredentism" among ethnic Bulgarians
>which goes back to Saint Stefan treaty for Greater Bulgaria.

It doesn't. Even more - so many facts and data haven't been presented and the
real picutre and other points of view (inlc. those of independent Western
diplomats, scholars, travelers, etc, etc) haven't been mentioned at all. So
far the Bulgarians have been amazingly tollerant towards the mass influx of
propaganda and lies, almost all of which has had (including the present
posting) an anti-Bulgarian character. And Bulgarians and other netters can
see that brainwashing wasn't only an attribute to 'communist' countries.

>I would like to warn the Bulgarian netters that your country has

Do not warn anybody as you insult the netters and show your lack of
tact and knowledge on this particular matter and you expose yourself.
Bulgarians may not know their history, but 'others' know the Balkan
history, facts, etc. even worse.

>been defeated 4 times on this issue,

Defeated or not (you never mention the issue as there is NOT 1 and the same
issue on which Bulgaria has been defeated, furthermore that for each
war/event - as a matter of fact there have been 2 military defeats only -
the second Balkan war - due to Romania, and the WWI - due to France and
England), it is 100% established fact that until WWI the majority of
the population in Macedonia was Bulgarian and considered itself as such.
NOW IT IS NOT, and what Bulgaria and Bulgarians regard towards Macedonia IS
NOT what it was 2 generations ago - i.e. the attitude is totally different.
Attempts to portray this as the same behaviour is stupid propaganda and
does nothing good for the peace on the Balkans. Inventing present treats
from others when there are no such is only serving to weak countries which
must hide their misfortunes and find a foreign enemy.

There is no big Bulgarian majority in Greek Macedonia (some of the Slavs
there consider themselves Bulgarians, some Macedonians, but all together
they are a small minority and not significant for Greece), and Bulgaria and
Bulgarians know that very well. The majority of the Slavs in Vardar
Macedonia do not consider themselves Bulgarians, and this is also a well
known and realized fact in Bulgaria and the contemporary Bulgarians. The
year is 1993 and it is not at all 1878, 1903, 1913, but to claim that THEN
it was the same as now is stupid and sad as that exposes total ignorance.

> and it is about time to drop
>this expansionistic dreams 

Such dreams don't exist. Nobody has expressed such. Nobody has ever hinted
such. Netters only hear "Macedinia is Greek" and not "Macedonia is
Bulgarian". Hence the expansionistic dreams are Greek as there is Macedonia
in Bulgaria. So - it is the Greeks who must drop their expansionistic
dreams and childish behaviour. Nobody wants to expand Bulgaria and in
regard to Macedonia I've myself am very angry when somebody talks as people
did 70 years ago  - but there have been in fact no such Bulgarians on the
net. I for one have always claimed that the Bulgarian spirit and ethnicy of
Macedonia is lost in general - Greek Macedonia is overwhemingly Greek.
Never heard a Bulgarian disputing this - only some lunatics affected by
Tito's propaganda but you must know that Tito wasn't a leader of Bulgaria -
direct your 'expansionist' critics to s.c.y. There hasn't been a single
hint for this on the net in s.c.b, or by a Bulgarian netter (as far as I've
seen - unless I missed something). Vardar Macedonia is NOT Bulgaria and the
dreams left by Tito and the Yugoslavs (which Balkan country supports the
present YU war machine?) are not those of Bulgarians. Please direct your
criticism in s.c.y. and don't insult the readers here.

>in favor of economic development and
>peaceful coexistence with your neighbors.

Should be valid for Greece and she should stop this nationalistic campaign
all over the world. Althougth what Greece did for Bulgaria and as
pro-Bulgarian propaganda (de facto) in Vardar Macedonia during the last
year, Bulgaria wouldn't have done by itsef for 5 years :-) 

>Your people had suffered a lot under communists

If one takes the same insulting tone, he can say "Your people have suffered
from fascism during the same time (not all of it, but until 18 years ago
there was one country in the Balkans ruled by fascist or pro-fascist and it
wasn't Bulgaria). "

> and this kind of
>irredentism

Direct those claims in s.c.y. for the Macedonians. S.c.b. is NOT an
appropriate place for such insults.

>population. On top of that, Greek people still remember the Bulgarian
>attrocities in Northern Greece [Macedonia, Thrace], during WW-I and
>WW-IIs.

Well, part of the statement is a total lie as until the end of WWI Thrace
was BULGARIAN and given to Greece only because France - even allies of
Greece like Britain and Italy were against that injustice but ... that is
past - check history books. As for other Bulgarian 'attrocities' - 
they can't be compared to the Greek attrocities during the Balkan wars and
after that, so do not try to stir up pages and pages of reports on the
misconduct and cruely of the Greek army from that time and later. You may
feel ashamed that you ever mentioned the word attrocities. Exchanges of
attrocities examples on the net won't bring understanding and peace, but
bashing the Bulgarians and trying to foget how tongues were cut when
Bulgarian was spoken, how names of people were changed (Bulgarian
communists iplemented badly in 1984 what Greek implemented with success 70
years ago), how thousands of Bulgarians were killed, massacred, genocided, is 
an insult to the memory of hundered of thousand of people. No need the net
ot become another attrocity example exchange place but it is not the
Bulgarians who are asking for this.

>For the common good of all the people in the Balkans, try to refrain

Do not patronize other people and insult them in such way. Such childish
behaviour is hardly a manner deserving compliments.

> Otherwise, the mistrust of Greek people towards Bulgaria
>will continue for ever.

Patronizing and treats again. YOu are neither the ruler of the world to
give such orders, nor you have any right whatsoever. There is only a chance
some people and the world to learn the barabarsm of some 'civilized'
nations, but that will bring no good for future understanding. But not
exposing such facts doens't mean that they didn't exist - and unlike others
'attrocities' - some are described by independent observers and not by
'home' propaganda.


Luben