HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: SF fans show libertarian inclination
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Date: 8 Jan 93 12:24:09 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@unixd1.cis.pitt.edu

In article <1993Jan7.215056.18040@news.cs.brandeis.edu> tabron1@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>In article <1i9mnnINNgvn@transfer.stratus.com>, jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
>I have to agree here. I like almost everything that Heinlein has
>written, but I'm not a libertarian. I find it difficult to believe that
>one could read most of his books and still feel that he was a libertarian.
>I don't think the supposed "Heinlein" who wrote books like Starship
>Troopers or Time Enough for Love could be considered a libertarian.

	RAH wasn't a libertarian, but a lot of his ideals were either
close to libertarian or not in tremendous conflict. In fact, it even occurred 
to me that the requirements for franchise in Starship Troopers (i.e.,
some kind of government service required for you to vote, etc) could
be seen in a libertarian light -- i.e., you have to pay for whatever you
want. A construction engineer isn't going to listen much to the opinions
of people who have no construction knowledge or experience... why should
government be decided by those with no experience or personal stake in
the matter? An interesting thought, anyway...

>>probably fall into the category.  Too much of libertarianism
>>is also "if they can't work, let them starve, but don't make
>>me spend my tax money on them."  

>I must say that most of the libertarians I have interacted with on the
>net have fallen into this category, and it disturbs me. The libertarians
>I have known _were_ rich, gun-loving, don't-tax-me sorts.

	Well, meet ONE who isn't. Rich, that is. I hope I WILL be, one
day.

	The point of libertarianism, if you want to put it in such a
tiny nutshell, is that you shouldn't FORCE people to do things -- that
is, if I were rich I should be free to donate my money to the poor, or
to a space program, or what have you, but since it's my money I should
have the right to decide where it goes.

	Gun loving, well, I believe I have the right to own weapons,
but I don't have one at the moment. They're expensive if you want a 
good one.

	Don't tax me? Damn straight. Taxation is theft.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Oathblinded by Mercedes Lackey?
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:28:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton):
>Not quite - TBG is a single book, mostly written, and it's so far in the
>past that we *don't* even know who the protagonists are, let alone which
>ones are going to 'be toast'.  All we know about that time is that it
>resulted in the extreme magical 'fallout' that we see in the Pelagirs...

Well, that war ended with Urtho's final strike and Falconsbane's
temporary demise, so we can make some shrewd guesses. :-)

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

Roses red and violets blew
  and all the sweetest flowres that in the forrest grew -- Edmund Spenser
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: john@liebnitz.ssd.kodak.com (John Hall)
Subject: Weapon policy (was Re: Boskone)
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 22:06:32 GMT

In article <C0IAo3.Fy@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> polowin@chem.queensu.ca (Joel Polowin) writes:
>If it CAN be used as a weapon, it IS a weapon.  Any and all objects which
>can be used to harm someone in any way must be left in the room.

No, Joel, that doesn't do it.  Pocketknives, pens, pop bottles, crutches
and countless other objects CAN be used as weapons.  They also, however,
are generally used for other purposes.  This utilitarian value makes
them unlikely to be banned in convention space.

Some items, (pistols, hand grenades, chainsaws, etc) have little or no such
utilitarian value at a con, and few would dispute that they should be
banned in those areas.  (The context is important.  Chainsaws would not
be banned at a lumberjack contest).

Wizard staves, et. al. fall somewhere in between those extremes.  To a
costumer, the utilitarian value is obvious. The 
job of the concom is to make a decision as to where it draws the
line, publish it and stick by it.  Even then there will be 
cases ... "What weapon? That's a (sonic screwdriver, annoyatron, 
bagpipe, etc)" Then somebody has to make a judgement call, and maybe
somebody gets pissed off.  

John Hall
Dorsai Irregulars Ltd.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Hall, Product Software Engineering, EASTMAN KODAK CO., Rochester NY
716 253 7446   john@kodak.COM   ...!rochester!kodak!ektools!john
From: jackc@vermont.mti.sgi.com (Jack Choquette)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: SF fans show libertarian inclination
Date: 5 Jan 93 02:04:32 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: vermont.mti.sgi.com

In article <1i9epsINNd5b@transfer.stratus.com>, lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Laurie Mann) writes:
|> I don't want to get into a flame on an issue we will never ever agree upon.
|> It's a waste of bandwidth.  Suffice to say that any group which promotes itself  
|> as being against government regulation, that has in its leadership people who  
|> oppose a woman's right to choose, aren't applying their principles very evenly.
|> 


Actually, based on a persons assumptions/beliefs and on what libertarians
believe the role of government is, there is a very convincing (and
logical) argument that leads one to conclude that a libertarian must
be anti-abortion/pro-life (in some cases).

Because of the emotion that this issue invokes (and the tons of
postings that are generated were everyone talks but no one listens), I
will not outline the reasons here.  However, if anyone is truly
interested I will discuss it via email.

Also I want to point out that libertarians do not believe in no
government.  Government does has a role, even if it is somewhat
limited.


/jack

P.S.  I feel I should point out my bias.  I am not libertarian.  But
      I do understand many of their ideas (and I agree with quite a
      few of them to).
From: wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu (Rick Russell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: aeroflights in space
Date: 12 Jan 1993 23:38:49 -0600
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamsun.tamu.edu

In article <1993Jan11.112646.10074@ac.dal.ca> 01fortec@ac.dal.ca writes:
>This is as close to an appropriate newsgroup as I can get.
>Are there any aerospace engineers out there reading this? Could you tell
>me the following: would it be possible to design a spacecraft with computer
>controlled thrusters arranged in such a pattern around the ship so as to
>simulate atmospheric flight in space? I can't think of any really good reason
>to do this except that it might simplify navigation in space a little.

Well, I'm no expert, but I have watched the Macross movie, a 1984 work
that rapidly became a classic in the Japanese animated genre. The
space and atmospheric flight scenes were of particular interest in
Macross, since the animators clearly gave the issue of space vs.
atmospheric flight a lot of thought.

The end result was a transformable aircraft/spacecraft called a
'Valkyrie', which looked suspiciously similar to a modern F-14. The
Valkyrie could be equipped with a supplementary engine unit for space
flight, and manuevering jets on the wingtips 'simulated' ailerons and
rudders and such. Of course, the end result was rather unlike typical
atmospheric flight, but at least the controls were the same.

If you are really interested in simulating atmospheric flight, I
suppose there are several ways to do it. The easiest way would be to
add manuevering thrusters designed to 'simulate' air resistance; i.e.
they would point into the plane's flight path. When you pulled back
(or pushed forward) on the stick, your 'resistance' would increase,
and the thrusters would fire. Rather wasteful of energy, I suspect.

>The question arose after a marathon evening of watching StarWars (all three).
>If it can't be done, why not? If it can be done, how complicated would it be?
>(it occurs to me that fuel tankage, if nothing else, might complicate matters)

Hmm, well, I don't really think Starwars was too realistic, at least
not in its early incarnations. The Starwars books (originally by
George Lucas and later by Timothy Zahn) described a set of
aircraft-like 'etheric rudders' and 'etheric ailerons' on the X-Wing
fighters.


-- 
#      Rick Russell | TAMU Meteorology | wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu       # 
#     "Tomorrow! Tomorrow! I'll claw ya, tomorrow!                     #
#      It's only a litter box away!"               - Bill the Cat      #

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: cn577@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Cyberspace Vanguard Magazine)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: CYBERSPACE VANGUARD Reply Card
Date: 5 Jan 1993 11:17:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cn577@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Cyberspace Vanguard Magazine)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


REPLY CARD FOR ISSUE ONE OF CYBERSPACE VANGUARD MAGAZINE
 
 
 
What did you think of this first issue?  Where can it be improved?  Are
there subjects you'd like to see covered?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Are you interested in subscribing to the paper version,
which includes photos and cartoons we can't include
in the electronic version?
-- 
                     CYBERSPACE VANGUARD MAGAZINE
           News and Views from the Science Fiction Universe
TJ Goldstein, Editor      |   Send submissions, questions, comments to
  tlg4@po.cwru.edu        |         cn577@cleveland.freenet.edu
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: SF fans show libertarian inclination
Date: 5 Jan 1993 14:02:13 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1iaos1INNmf0@spim.mti.sgi.com> jackc@vermont.mti.sgi.com  
(Jack Choquette) writes:

> But that all there is to libertarianism: "Live and let live".   
Taken
> to its extreme logical conclusion, it also means: "if they can't  
work
> {**and no one is willing to support them**}, let them starve, but
> don't make me {**i.e. force me**} support them.
> 
> Notice that I slightly modified your quote, specifically note the  
text
> added between the {** **}.  It is the most often omitted when
> explaining the libertarian mindset, but is the most crucial bit  
needed
> to understand libertarianism.

Fine. And all of this is why I find libertarianism appaling. While
sometimes I think governemnt goes too far, I also think that
we as a society have a moral obligation to provide a safety
net for those in need (and my helping to pay for this is my
obligation for what society gives me). However, this is not the group  
to debate this in.

_________________________________________________
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: THE GRIPPING HAND by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:45:35 GMT

ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C Leeper +1 908 957 2070):

>This is billed as the "long awaited sequel to THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE."
>Some things aren't worth the wait.

Too bad.  Ah well, the library will get it eventually.

>The Navy does seem to have one woman officer...

This is actually a step backwards from Mote, in which there were none.
It's legitimate to declare, as they did there, that because of the wars
and their aftermath the cultural wheel turned and women once again
became protected/second-class citizens.  But authors who do this should
stick to their guns:  To then decide that the 31st century marks the early
phase of the second women's movement is to have the worst of both worlds.

>...while the eighteen-year-old heiress is allowed to tag
>along on what is at least a quasi-military expedition.  She does this by by
>batting her eyes and stamping her feet

Again, a step backward from Mote, in which the heiress was allowed to tag
along on a quasi-military expedition by virtue of her rank, pure and simple.

>All the women in the book are someone's "love interest" and everyone is
>of course heterosexual, and everyone assumes everyone else is as well.

I have to side with Heinlein somewhat on this:  'Everyone knows' that the
mores of the fourth millenium will be those of the 1990s, and not those
of the 1950s?  That said, though, it sounds as though the authors forgot
that their *readers* aren't living in the 1950s.

>Except for the politics, which are from the 1980s--the Arab Liberation 
>Organization (ALO) and bomb-throwings on New Ireland...Several authors and 
>philosophers are quoted, but none are from after 1992.

I'm puzzled.  This sort of thing is simply poor craftsmanship -- built-in
obsolescence.  There are ways to at least *try* to avoid making a book
too time-bound, and Niven, at least, has demonstrated many of them in
the past.  Couldn't they be bothered?

>There's also the "Crazy Eddie" references...

This *is* an inheritance from Mote -- though there are better and worse 
ways to handle it -- and it does sound as though having read Mote is
the only reasonable motivation for reading Hand.

Sigh.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   If you're going to write, don't pretend to write down.  It's going to be the
   best you can do, and it's the fact that it's the best you can do that kills
   you! -- Dorothy Parker
From: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Writers groups
Date: 11 Jan 1993 12:23:39 -0600
Organization: Educational Computing Network
NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

In article <1993Jan11.081504.16481@pro-smof.cts.com> wixer!cactus.org!wixer!pro-smof.cts.com!rfletcher@cactus.org (Robert Fletcher) writes:
>  Macomb is about a hundred thousand people small, check the library.
>I am guessing about the population.

I am sure the city will be thrilled to hear this, but Macomb recently
hired a special census just to prove that they have more than 20,000
people when all the students are in town.  Anyway, there are not writers
groups in town in spice of the local University.



-- 
| Charles B. Owen                            Internet: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu |
| Western Illinois University                            Phone: 309-837-4292 |
| 1002 E. Murray                                                             |
| Macomb, IL  61455                                                          |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Subject: Re: Oathblinded by Mercedes Lackey? 
Distribution: world
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:02:27 +0000

In article <1993Jan3.225839.5257@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com writes:

>chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton):
>>- I haven't heard of any others in the Valdemar universe (apart from the
>>continuing 'Mage Winds' set, and sometime 'The Black Gryphon', about the
>>ancient Mage Wars).
>
>Shades of the Deryni and the Herald-Mage:  Another trilogy to be set
>in the past, so we'll know in advance that the protagonist is toast.

Not quite - TBG is a single book, mostly written, and it's so far in the
past that we *don't* even know who the protagonists are, let alone which
ones are going to 'be toast'.  All we know about that time is that it
resulted in the extreme magical 'fallout' that we see in the Pelagirs...

***********************************************************************
*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
***********************************************************************
From: obrien@AERO.ORG (Mike O'Brien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Boskone
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:41:51 GMT

From the Boskone Progress Report:

>Boskone Weapons Policy
>
>As is standard at most conventions, no weapon, or anything that looks like
>a weapon, is allowed at Boskone at any time. This includes clubs,
>quarterstaves, wizard's staves, lasers, squirt guns, toy zap guns, or
>anything else that resembles a weapon. If you violate this rule you will be
>asked to leave the convention.

If banning wizard's staves is standard at most conventions it's news to me.
Far as I can tell this is unique to Boskone.  It's too bad, but not as bad
as it might be, because Boskone, unlike most conventions, has a reputation
among some fans, at least, as being boring.

Mike O'Brien
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.fandom.cons,rec.arts.sf.fandom
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Subject: Convention Masquerades 
Keywords: costumes, chainmail bikinis, leather jockstraps, I-Con XII 
Nntp-Posting-User: @cornell.edu
Organization: CUMC
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:09:11 GMT

Despite the so-far underwhelming attention given it by the concom and the fen,
it looks like my wife and I will be running the I-Con XII masquerade.  What I'd
like to hear is what _you_ the costumer and _you_ the fan prefer at a masquerade?

We know what _we_ like, but then again, that's just based on our own limited
experience entering.

-- 
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
From: brian@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu (Brian Louis Rogers  (BLuR))
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.fandom.cons,rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: Convention Masquerades
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.fandom.cons,rec.arts.sf.fandom
Date: 6 Jan 1993 14:18:56 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Materials Research Labs Cent. for Computation, Operations Office
Distribution: world
Reply-To: rogers@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: uimrli.mrl.uiuc.edu
Keywords: costumes, chainmail bikinis, leather jockstraps, I-Con XII

In article <1993Jan5.210911.8467@mail.cornell.edu>,
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart) writes:
|>Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.fandom.cons,rec.arts.sf.fandom
|>Path:
|
roundup.crhc.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-st
tate.edu!caen!batcomputer!cornell!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!guru.med.cornell.
.edu!phydeaux
|>From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
|>Subject: Convention Masquerades 
|>Message-ID: <1993Jan5.210911.8467@mail.cornell.edu>
|>Keywords: costumes, chainmail bikinis, leather jockstraps, I-Con XII 
|>Sender: news@mail.cornell.edu
|>Nntp-Posting-Host: guru.med.cornell.edu
|>Nntp-Posting-User: @cornell.edu
|>Organization: CUMC
|>Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:09:11 GMT
|>Lines: 12
|>Xref: roundup.crhc.uiuc.edu rec.arts.sf.misc:3851 alt.fandom.cons:574
|>rec.arts.sf.fandom:1327
|>
|>Despite the so-far underwhelming attention given it by the concom and the
|>fen,
|>it looks like my wife and I will be running the I-Con XII masquerade.  What
|>I'd
|>like to hear is what _you_ the costumer and _you_ the fan prefer at a
|>masquerade?

At big conventions (I am going to use Minicon as my example) I personally
like being
able to have a choice of 1) standing in the long line and hoping to get a
seat where
I can take pictures or 2) going up to my room and starting the room party a
little early
while watching the masquerade "from the front row" in the comfort of my room.
Translation:
I like it when  con-com (or a fan) decides to film the masquerade and the
hotel allows them
to broadcast it in-house.

Another thing I like is for a white wall to be put up so amateur (thats me)
photographers
have a chance to get the shots that only the pros get. 

|>
|>We know what _we_ like, but then again, that's just based on our own limited
|>experience entering.
|>
|>-- 
|>73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
|>phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
|>phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
|>phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
|>


--
Brian L. Rogers
707 N. Coler            
Urbana, IL 61801-1611   ___________________________
(217)337-0068 H         |blur@uiuc.edu             |
(217)333-7456 W         |rogers@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu|
----------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Subject: Re: Articles About Internet in Mass Media (Was Internet (Glob
Nntp-Posting-User: @cornell.edu
Organization: CUMC
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 16:32:16 GMT

In article <726091651snz@keris.demon.co.uk>, chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton) writes:
|> I save *everything* <g>.  No, not quite all my email, as much of it is
|> trivial, but the personal correspondence with friends, that I *do* keep,
|> both incoming and outgoing.  One person alone in the last 20 months
|> since we started corresponding has taken up 3.6 Mb on my hard disk, and
|> that's just chat - the programs, stories, etc. must make it at least
|> twice that transferred...

Yowf.  Personally, since most email is by its very nature trivial chitchat, I
don't save it for the reason that I _never_ have enough disk space.

|> However, if I die, will anyone keep it or 'archive' it?  I doubt it.
|> It's a lot easier to wipe a disk than it is to throw away several
|> thousands of letters - probably they wouldn't even bother looking...

Now here comes a question to make this more SF.  Given some "archival" media
(i.e. one that lasts for centuries), and a clever enough archaeologist in
the future who can _read_ the disks/CDs/what-have-you, what picture could they
draw of life among the 20th Century Usenetter Tribe?

-- 
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: cbwierda@ar14darlrk.er.usgs.gov (Clark B. Wierda)
Subject: Re: Boskone
Organization: US Geological Survey, WRD, Arkansas District
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:18:42 GMT
Reply-To: cbwierda@ar14darlrk.er.usgs.gov
X-Posted-From: ar14darlrk.er.usgs.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <199301062041.AA28939@aerospace.aero.org> obrien@AERO.ORG (Mike O'Brien) writes:
>From the Boskone Progress Report:

>>Boskone Weapons Policy
>>
>>As is standard at most conventions, no weapon, or anything that looks like
>>a weapon, is allowed at Boskone at any time. This includes clubs,
>>quarterstaves, wizard's staves, lasers, squirt guns, toy zap guns, or
>>anything else that resembles a weapon. If you violate this rule you will be
>>asked to leave the convention.

>If banning wizard's staves is standard at most conventions it's news to me.
>Far as I can tell this is unique to Boskone.  It's too bad, but not as bad
>as it might be, because Boskone, unlike most conventions, has a reputation
>among some fans, at least, as being boring.

>Mike O'Brien

Yet another reason to avoid Boskone all together.
--
Clark B. Wierda	               	    Phone:     501-324-6391
Federal Office Building, Room 2301  EDOC:      CBWIERDA
Little Rock, AR 72201               Internet:  cbwierda@ar14darlrk.er.usgs.gov
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc