Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Mt 24 & some fundamentals
From: bthurman@uncavx.unca.edu
Date: 4 Sep 92 11:18:12 -0500
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
Nntp-Posting-User: bthurman

bearded Bill here is new to this group: If tempted to 'flame' me as
'fundamentalist', ask yourself: Could not all who have thought seriously about
'ultimate realities' be termed 'fundamentalists' in the sense that all have
their basic points assumed by the self to be right?  In other words, can one
not safely say:"All thoughtful humans are fundamentalists, our fundamentals
simply differ"?
Turn now to fundamentals for Scripture buffs regarding Daniel 7 & 11-12 and
Matthew 24:
If you think Daniel to be only an example of writing about past events under
the fictitious aspect of imaginary revelations, then don't your fundamentals
make you call Jesus wrong (or wrongly represented) in Matthew 24 , especially
if he puts the tribulation after the abomination and the sign and the parousia
(his arrival) immediately after that?  Would it not have been too late to flee
after any of the so-called 'fulfilled abominations' were set up?
On the other hand, if you think Daniel really was a person who did see what the
document claims that he saw, and if you think that what he saw was revealed to
him by the One Eternal God, would you not want to take the advice of Jesus more
seriously?  In Matthew 24 does Jesus not say to his followers, in effect, 'let
the person who reads Daniel the prophet understand'? And do the events at the
end of 11 and the beginning of 12 in Daniel not parallel those in Matthew 24? 
11,31 setting up of abomination, 12,1 unparallelled time of trouble, and 12,2 a
resurrection event, when the just will shine like the sun?
Now what's Daniel 7 got to do with all this?  Have you ever looked carefully at
what the prophet was told his vision meant?  Did the prophet not see the son of
man figure receive kingship (normal sense of kingdom) in 7,13-14?  Was not the
interpretation given to the prophet in 7,17-18 that the 'saints of the Most
High' would receive this kingship?  Can one escape the conclusion that the son
of man figure represents the saints of the Most High? Not just one human person
but some kind of collective group?
The foregoing would seem to be a fundamental of the text by the text and for
the text, would it not?  And yet, can you not find hundreds of Christian books
and pamphlets on the end time and prophecy based upon 'talking through their
hats' about who the son of man figure represents?  And still yet, must one not
move with caution?  Do not keen and respected ancient Christians like
Hippolytus and Eusebius take the position that the son of man figure in Daniel
7 represents Jesus?  Could both be true?  If so, how?
Do you want to read more stuff like this?  Or will you blow a fuse and say
'This guy really expects me to look at the sources and see for myself'?  Will
you take refuge in 'the simplicity of the Gospel'?  If so, are you willing to
look at how simple the Gospel really is?  Or will you take refuge in head games
until you are beat at your own head game and then squawk about simplicity?
One last question about fundamentals: In the one extended discourse about the
future of the disciples, 'beneath the shadow of the cross' in John 14-15-16,
what major factor for guidance did the Master foretell?  Did He say, 'I'm going
to have an infallible book written and you'd better learn Hebrew and Greek and
apply your brilliant little brain to it to be sure what it means?  Or did he
say, 'I'm going to set up an infallible hierarchy and you'd better comply with
all they tell you to do, our you're going to sizzle on the griddle'?  Or did He
promise the Big Buddy = Spirit of Truth, who would comfort, guide, advocate and
lead into all truth?  Does not book without Spirit often amount to 'brain +
Bible = clobber people'?  Does church without Spirit often amount to effete
social club or tryannically effective inquisition?
Can questions who whose side a person is on?
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