HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: viking@bnr.ca (Harold Henrikson)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Reply-To: viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 13:19:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.003014.14286@news.weeg.uiowa.edu>, lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis) writes:
|> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
|> 
|> >> group of people.  In this case the rights of Greeks who live in Macedonia,
|> >> Greece, are violated by the request of Skopjeans to gain recognition
|> >> under the name "Macedonians".
|> 
|> >This is a circular argument resting on the assumption that only
|> >GraecoMacedonians have the right to the name Macedonian.
|> 
|> First, the term "GraecoMacedonians" is a new one, according to my knowledge.
|> Up to this point the Greeks who lived in Macedonia were called simply
|> Macedonians (Alexander the Great and Aristotles were simply Macedonians
|> -a subset of Greeks,- not GraekoMacedonians. )

Aristotle was an Athenian.

|> 
|> Second, it is the Skopjeans who ask for recognition.  Therefore, it is
|> up to them to prove (with historical, geographical etc) arguments that
|> they diserve the title "Macedonians".

Deserve the title?  And I suppose Greece can prove it deserves the title 'Greece'?
Can parents prove their children 'deserve' the names they wish to give them?

|> 
|> 
|> > But this is what needs to be proved and the burden of proof rests firmly on
|> > the group who wish to appropriate this name for their exclusive use. As yet
|> >I have seen no good arguments used in this regard. I fail to see how
|> >sharing a name violates any one's rights.

I must have missed this one.  When did Macedonia tell Greece it can't use the
name Macedonia for its province?


|> 
|> Second.  Suppose that Macedonia, Greece, decides to become an independent
|> country (Just for the example folks!!!!).  Can she apply to gain recognition
|> in the UN, as the "Republic of Macedonia", if the Republic of Skopje has
|> already been recognized as "Republic of Macedonia"?
|> 
|> The answer is no.  Macedonia, Greece, must apply under a different name!
|> 
Its called 'first come, first served'.  An example closer to home.  Here in
Canada we have a real possibility that part of our country will be separating
in the near future.  Now, historically, the part that wishes to separate originated
the name Canada.  So if they wish to take back that name do they have the right to
do so?  The answer should be no but who can stop them?  Personally, they have my
blessing to it to look ridiculous.
|> 
|> 
|> >Andy
|> 
|> Friendly,
|> Panos Lolonis
|> U. of Iowa
|> 
|> 

--
Harold Henriksen                    Bell-Northern Research
email: viking@bmerh694.bnr.ca       Ottawa,Ontario,Canada 

Pillaging and plundering were more fun than programming!
(Opinions are not my employer's and sometimes not mine)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10620 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1313 soc.culture.croatia:463
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: question
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:14:01 GMT

jxz1221@hertz.njit.edu (josko zec ee stnt) writes:
: anybody can tell me times of broadcasting and frequency (shortwave) of
: Croatian radio to be heard in USA ?

Actually, I would be interested in frequencies and times for *any*
transmissions from Yugoslavia/former sections of Yugoslavia.

If someone could supply some, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
From: boyle@kirkuk.berkeley.edu (Joseph Boyle)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: NPR: Bosnia Faces Aggression now from Croats
Date: 21 Jan 1993 15:36:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: kirkuk.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan20.155221.19585@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>Indeed, how can Bosnia face aggression from Croats and Serbs,
>when they do represent majority of population there?  It is 
>high time for Bosnian Muslims to rethink their strategy, goals, 
>and leadership ( whose only quality seems to be that they are 
>good Muslims and experts in Islam ). 

I can't believe you are so stupid as to tell Americans that it is OK
to do anything to a minority, and to further expose the covert
Serbo-Croatian alliance of racist extremists.  I am writing President
Clinton right away to urge him to send arms and air support to
Bosnia's secular democratic government, which seems to be the only
hope for sanity the region, and I urge other Americans and Europeans
to do the same.  

>the Bosnian government. Never before have the Bosnian Muslims felt
>more alone.

Wake up, Americans.  The Yugoslav conflict isn't far away and irrelevant;
the extremists there are exactly like the extremists here who would like
to plunge OUR society into a suicidal race war.  Let's stop them there
before they set a precedent.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:42:35 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <carlos.727894949@morgan>, carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges) writes:
|> 
|> You can't be serious.  Is this what the big controversy is over
|> Macedonia?  The Name?  HAHAHAHAHAH!

The name is just the tip of the iceberg. This should be clear by now.
Perhaps the following official document released by the US Dept of State
in 1944, might help you a bit:



***********-------------
***********-------------          U. S.  STATE  DEPARTMENT
***********-------------
***********-------------
------------------------         Foreign Relations.  Vol  VIII
------------------------           Washington D.C.
------------------------
------------------------

                                   Circular Airgram
                                 (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944)

  The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers

    The following is for your information and general guidance, but not
for any positive action at this time.

    The Department has noted with considerable apprehension
increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an
autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also
from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek
territory would be included in the projected state. This Government
considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or
Macedonian "national consciousness" to be kunjustified demagoguery
representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival
a possible cloak for agressive intentions against Greece.

    The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of
the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia
is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost
unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of
serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be
false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or
group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive
acts of "Macedonian forces" against Greece.

    The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this
subject which may come to your attention

                                            STETTINIUS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: jdd1@cec2.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:49:54 GMT

In article <JTSILLA.93Jan25123615@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu> jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas) writes:
>
>
>Bzzzt! Aristotle was born and grew up in Chalkidiki in Macedonia. He was
>Alexander's tutor.
>

A small clarification may be needed here.  If not mistaken he may have been 
born in macedonia, but was not macedonian, since he was born in a colony
of chalkida.  But this goes to show this whole mess:  regardless who the
macedonians were,  whatever happened in macedonia (the region) is atributed
the macedonians (an ancient tribe) who's heirs are supposedly the former
Yugoslav republic of macedonia(a modern slavic ethnic groupwho are trying
to create a country in the area where paionia used to be in ancient years).
But it is hilarious to see many slavs on the net  laying claims
on the legacy of Aristotle (who was not macedonian) or on the Byzantine
macedonian dynasty (who were armenians!) as well as on the legacy of
czar samuel, who was Bulgarian!

Hey! This seems simple enough!!  So all Castro has to do to gain international
legitimacy for his regime is to rename Cuba to Florida, since those vicious
capitalists with their shameless propaganda have hidden from the world for so
many centuries the truth of the floridian indian tribes who were expeled to
cuba by the european imperialists.  And since Florida has a democratic
goverment, and the poeple of cuba are decendants of the floridians, they
too have a flourishing democracy based on solid floridian tradition!
And of course the united states could not object to that since they
cannot claim copyright for the name "florida", nor can they claim that
small little old cuba is a threat to their security!!

Now why didn't Castro think of that during the missle crisis???
It realy makes you wonder.......

Cheers

James Dimarogonas  
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10645 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1335 soc.culture.croatia:480
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Good News from U.S.
Date: 23 Jan 93 07:03:15 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:

>Now, take that situation which is only the events of the last two years,
>and superimpose the history of WWII and before.  It is not the memory of
>the past which drives Serbs, it is the experience of the present.  Serbs,
>like Jews, have no intention of ever allowing the events of WWII to
>happen to them again; a larger percentage of the Serbian population
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>was exterminated than was the Jewish population.  Despite the history, 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

While I do agree with many points in your argument, this is certainly not
true, since 80% of the Jews of Yugoslavia were exterminated in the
WWII; and in Europe as a whole 2/3 of all the Jews were exterminated. 
No nation in Yugoslavia was exterminated anywhere near those numbers.
However, the numbers (objective reality) and the psychological experience
don't coincide. That is why everyone's fears, even based in false facts
are genuine fears. That is why, with the terrible and complicated
history of the region, the worst political crime in this war was to
steer up fears of other ethnic groups and hatred based in those fears.
Nationalisms in ex-Yu were not the cause of this war but the TOOLS
in the hands of the ones who couldn't otherwise grab the power, or stay
in the power without facing ultimate outrage of the population toward
THEM for looting the whole country and destroying its economic and social
structure in the first place.


>-Nick

Regards,

Ana M. Shane

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
before any ethnic cleansing one must first do the brain-washing
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10603 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1295 soc.culture.croatia:457
From: faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) 
Subject: Re: Solution for "krajina"
Reply-To: faruk@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Canada
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 01:43:03 GMT


In article <1993Jan27.225533.1068@walter.bellcore.com>,
ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324) writes:
|> In article <tervio.15@katk.Helsinki.FI> tervio@katk.Helsinki.FI
(TERVI| MARKO J) writes:
|> >
|> >Here's one proposition for a solution in the Serb-occupied Croatia.
|> >I admit it's not realistic in the present situation but it should be
thought-
|> >provoking.
|> >
|> >:   Have Serbia draw a plan for Kosovo and apply it in Serb-predominated 
|> >areas in Croatia (as before ethnic cleansing).  If Serbia decides to give 
|> >Kosovo some sort of territorial autonomy, then so be it in Krajina. If 
|> >street signs are also/only in Albanian in Kosovo, then so be it with
Serbian 
|> >in Krajina, etc. etc.  
|> 
|> 	OK. How about this for a plan: Serbia gives Albanians a right for
|> 	self determination (including secession) in exchange for equal
|> 	right to be given to the Serbs in Serbian-predominated areas of
|> 	B-H and Croatia? Than, we would not need to worry about the street
|> 	signs, I think. So be it!
|> 
|> DDC

Sure, but ...

Kosovo is more than obviously part of Albanian territory (adjacent to it 
and with 90% Albanian population). However, serbs in Bosnia are over 90% 
only in 4 scaterred villages: Drvar, B. Grahovo, Sehovici, and Ljubinje.
Problem with serbs is that they do not want to be a minority even if 
there is only 10% of them, and of cause they do not want to move. In Bosnia
31% of serbs want 50% of territory, while in Croatia 11% of serbs want 1/3
of territory, and none is adjacent to Serbia. 

Faruk.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
From: cza@prefect.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun)
Subject: Re: NPR: Bosnia Faces Aggression now from Croats
Organization: Bell Communications Research, Navesink, NJ,
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 06:30:33 GMT

In article <C1F9M3.9pB@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:
>>>
>>
>>Aren't you Alex Goykhman that I've encountered before because of 
>>snobby slurs against Azerbeycanis by calling them animals?  
>>If not, my appologies from A. Goykhman.  Otherwise, the alias- Red 
>>Herring (or yellow-snapper for that matter) cannot disguise your Muslim 
>>xenophobia.                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>^^^^^^^^^^^
>  
>    Isn't "C. Akgun" just a copy of the "Argic/Mutlu" hatemongering AI
>    program designed to scan Usenet feed and kick in every time the word 
>    "Turkey" gets mentioned?
>

Why don't you find out yourself?  Talking about legal
actions, slenders, etc. below...  You should bear in mind that one
has to back it up what they claim.  I have no problem to
back it up what I said about you said.  I advise the same if you
choose such a route.

BTW: You mentioned Turkey in your third respond to the
gentlman who were trying to divert people's
attention to Bosnians dilemma.  He did not know where you
were taking him with those innocent questions of yours.
I was following you step by step after recognizing your
last name.  I knew who I was dealing with and I knew where we 
were going with those questions.  Some people never change.
I waited your punch line to answer your diatribe.


>    If so, could it be re-written to produce a copy of the original article 
>    every time a human is being slandered based on the alleged contents 
>    of that article?  I guess not.  In fact, I am willing to bet that 
>    the "Argic/Mutlu" virus only exists to shield one or more professional 
>    slanderers from legal action.

Like I said, I am not shielded from anything like anybody else here.  
(Nor I need to be.)  However, I am baffled with your response.  Are 
you telling me that you never said the following quote: "Calling 
Azeris "animals" is insult to animals," which is a slur for entire 
nation.  If my memory serves me right, you have hinted there also that 
this is because of their religion.  If you are experiencing a memory 
lapse (how quaint! it happens all the time in this type of situation), 
tell me without blundering.  I can dig it up your gems for you from 
my archieves.  For your own sake, I advise you to brush your memory 
by searching your author_copy file if you keep such a thing.  
If you are not aware what author_copy is, you better learn to keep
one before talking about slender, legal action, etc.

>
>    BTW, you surely "meant" anti-Muslim, not Muslim, xenophobia.
>    Is it a bug, or is the program now capable of Freudian-slips?
>

Well.  The dictionary says "fear/hate for foreign people
and things" about xenophobia.  Everybody should know
who he/she is.  The actions and the words are the reflections
that we all form our opinon for each other.  About a year
ago, you give me enough clue about yourself. 

C. Akgun
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
From: leovacd@topaz.ucq.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: signature / dogs' sniffing
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:56:29 AET
Organization: University of Central Queensland, Australia

In article <1jir5rINN3tc@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> zorro@cats.ucsc.edu (zorro)
writes:
>A curious party has requested that I provide my "signature" for
>inspection.
>While highly flattered at the expressed interest, I hope this newsgroup
>does not become like the barricades all over Jugoslavija, where people's
>lives depend on their surname matching the inspectors'.
>
>regards,
>
>Dragan Zivkovic

to what ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurcov 21324) replies:

>>You might call this: A CASE OF FRIENDLY FIRE.
>>
>>It CAN happen to the best...Ask the Brits.
>>
>>I can assure you that the incident will be investigated and
>>corrective action taken, i.e. don't shoot from the hip, etc.
>>
>>             "Ko radi, taj i gresi."
>>             Rece zec.....

Well Zorro, you've survived this one. Inspector DDC apologises. I just
wonder what his answer would be if you signed yourself as i.e. Dragutin
Horvat? What would be the result of his primitive Friend-Or-Foe logic?

Regards,

     Gino
----------------------------------------------------------------------
**************** THE LONELY PLANET IS MY ONLY HOME *******************
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
From: an8023@anon.penet.fi
Subject: testiram
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 02:14:00 GMT


	ovo je samo test
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: yiannis@wam.umd.edu (IOANNIS VELISSARAKOS  ATHINA-HELLAS)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Keywords: Macedonia and Greek Constitution
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 07:20:31 GMT

In article <1jk69vINNc46@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes:
>
>I am looking for a copy of the Macedonian Constitution...the complete
>text, if possible.  As I do not have ftp access, email would be greatly

	Macedonia doesn't have any Constitution of its own. MAcedonia is
	a province in Greece (Northern Greece) and its people are 
	Greek citizens under the Greek constitution. Also, the laws
	which are existed in Macedonia are the same ones as the ones in 
	the rest of Greece. I hope that I helped you a little bit.

>appreciated.
>
	I can find you the Greek constitution, I guess. 
>I am also looking for information conncerning the attitude of individual
>EC member states towards Macedonia.  Direct quotes on this topic from EC
>heads of state would be most helpful.
>
>Thank you.
>
>-- 
>******************************************************************************
>The opinions expressed by the author are insightful, intelligent and very
>carefully thought out.  It is therefore unlikely that they are shared by the
>University of Iowa or Case Western Reserve University.


You welcome,
yiannis

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10728 alt.news.macedonia:270 soc.culture.misc:592
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:11:39 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <C1H6wG.F2B@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
|> Of course not. But then I don't like bullying and when I see Greece
|> trying to bludgon a small country like Macedonia I feel it's necessary
|> to set the record straight. As for inaccuracy I wonder if you've ever
|> looked at Greek propaganda on this issue recently.

Andy:
I am quite impressed by your gentle feelings for FYRM a small country that
Greece bludgon. You are really a noble soul. Do you have similar feelings
for UK bludgon Ireland?


-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab