From: bodom@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom)
Subject: Re: Ken/Ryu stuff
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:16:24 GMT

In <1992Nov11.055949.25552@mercury.unt.edu> west@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce West) writes:

>>Tell me, what's Bison's weakness???   I don't know of one

>  *LACK OF MOVE VARIATION*  His 2 major attacks are both forward body
>attacks!  Everyone *knows* where you are going to come from.  And if
>you wanna head stomp it is telegraphed by your crouch.  No surprises, if 
>he is standing he is gonna come straight at you.  Use long range attacks
>or come in with roudhouses to counter torpedo.  If he is crouching try
>to fake him into a head stomp - be ready.  He is too simple, that is his
>greatest weakness.

Seems like all the boss characters suffer from this, but to me, Bison has more
variation than the other boss characters (see Vega or Balrog).


>*READ THIS*:  I'm gonna tell you all how simple it is to kill the "cheesepedo"
>so you can stop bitching:
> Ryu/Ken:  DP! Very simple.  Or fireball.  Or Hurricane in close as it starts.
> Guile:  Razor kick.  Sonic boom.  "fag skip" in close as it starts.
> Z: Lariat.  Into an SDP as he falls.  Z rocks Bison, btw.
> Chun: Head Stomp on front half on torpedo.  Forward kick into head.         
>       Lightning kick (1000 foot kick, whatever).
> Sagat: forgot him.  Same as ken.  Flying knee into Bison as it starts (close).
> Blanka: Flying roundhouse into head. Claw into head. Ball as it starts.
> Honda: Flying roundhouse.  Close 1000 hand slap or jab torpedos make it   
>        impossible to start.
> Balrog: Punch his ass.  Flying punch into him as it starts.
> Vega: Roundhouse into him.  Backward somersault will let him pass through you
>       and let you throw him when he is done :)  Well timed screaming eagle
>       will throw Bison outta his flam.
> Dhalsim:  Fireballs.  Screwdrivers will keep him from starting it.

Don't use fireballs.  Trust me.  Even if you know he's going to torpedo, 
Dhalsim's fireballs come out slow and hit WAY late.  If you fireball and 
Bison's on the other side of the screen, the fireball won't hit Bison on the
head.  It won't hit him until the fireball is in the middle of the torpedo
which by the time, Bison will STILL hit you with his cheese as it continues 
to penetrate.  Dhalsim's fireballs have very low priority compared to Bison's
cheese.  Use the crouch punch to get away.  But, a lot of screwdrivers get you
in trouble.  Bison will simply block, then throw.  The problem is don't let him
start it, but how to prevent that is another question.

>FOR ALL CHARACTERS:  Hitting him in the head will stop it.  Or, as it seems
> many are incapable of grasping this -- JUMP FOOL!  Ryu can fireball you 10
>times and you take damage, but nobody complains cause its spread out.  If you
>are dumb enough to let someone hit you with a flam - take your 4 blocked 
>FBs worth of damage!  JESUS!

I can tell that you are a Ryu/Ken player because obviously, you don't realize
how strong the cheese is.  Take away your DP and you're history.

THAT'S THE FREAKING PROBLEM!!  You must be close to knock him out of it, and
more than half the time, somehow, even if close, you'll trade damage, which
results in a loss of another 4 or 5 clicks of damage.  Can someone tell me
how do you get CLOSE to Bison in order for you to have a chance to knock him
out of it.  And you must hit him as it starts too!?  That's what makes it TOO
powerful.  Once it starts, you're history.  The problem with the damn cheese is
that it does buttloads of damage and he doesn't even need to be close to you
to do it.

How do you get close to a Bison?  He will use the cheese to knock you down
as you jump, then cheese all over your fallen body.  After that, you're right
back to where you started, but with a lot less energy.  

OK, here's the situation.  You're about half way across the screen from Bison
and he cheeses.  What do to?  (my character doesn't have a DP).  I must hit
him in the head.  OK, I'll try that.  BLAM!!!  I go down.  I take even more
damage after he cheeses my fallen body.  Oh, I guess I shouldn't have done
that, because I didn't hit him when it STARTED.  But how would I have been able
to do that?  OK, he cheeses again.  This time I jump back and hit him in the
head.  yay!!  Damn, I hit him, and I still got flamed.  (Blue body falling from
the air).  He cheeses over my fallen body for another 3-4 hits of damage.
I'm losing very badly, due to getting hit by cheese 10-15 times.  He comes at
me once again.  Knowing that I losing badly, I reflect back to this post.
Out of instinct, I suddenly remember, "JUMP FOOL!"  I must be careful because
if I jump back, the parallax scrolling will kill me.  To my surprise, I jump
over it.  Oh no, he comes again.  (Damn, how do I get in close to play MY 
game?  This is really annoying!)  I jump over it, but his freaking feet hit me
and kill me!      (I was using Balrog)

a) cheese has priority, once it's started it's HARD to knock him out of it
unless you have a DP or are Zangief
b) his "big burning body" is too LONG.  makes it difficult to jump over.
c) cheese comes at you pretty fast.  makes it tough for you to jump over.
d) cheese knocks you out of the air.  makes it difficult to even touch Bison
e) cheese does buttloads of damage even when blocked.
f) after getting knocked down, cheese kills you with major damage.
g) need power move to knock him out of cheese.  can't jab like against Blanka
or Honda (see a) )

A good way, I guess to avoiding the cheese, is to actually play Bison and
cheese the computer and watch how the computer avoids the cheese.  
Unfortunately, the computer doesn't even know what to do.

>>  a) use it to penetrate your opponent for major damage

>   If you consider near an inch major damage, I don't know where you play.
>For all who don't know here is a simple counter to the TORpedo - BLOCK.
>So many people try to counter it, they suck, get hit - so I'm gonna try
>that again.  And the same thing happens.  And they bitch.  Take your medicine.
>Bison will be near the corner.  Pin him in and kick his ass - simple.

Block a couple of torpedoes.  That does NOT equal an inch!!  Each BLOCKED
torpedo takes off about 10% damage.  TOO much for a BLOCKED attack.

>>  b) flatten anyone who dares to jump at you

>   Much like a Dragon punch, razor kick, or jumping roundhouse?  Not to
>mention the kick to the head will stop the torpedo as it comes out - which
>is more than I can say for a dragon punch or razor kick.

(as it comes out)  That's all I hear!  What to do WHEN it's coming rather than
AS it comes out?

>>  c) counter ball attacks

>   If Blanka and Bison are half a screen away - and both go for a fierce
>torpedo attack at each other.. Blanka will get there first and level Bison.
>But true, head to head Bison will win - much like Honda does.

Not true to what I've seen.  Bison will knock him out of his ball and keep
on going through.

>>  d) hell, the el-cheapo move.    strong cheese, throw   (real gooey)

>   Easy to counter.  Roundhouse throw with Ken/Ryu.  Strong throw well
>timed from any other character.  SPD will work.  So will Razor kick.

Not easy to counter.  Razor kick isn't too successful, even though I've been
able to pull it off.  If Bison does a strong cheese, then starts spazzing on
the strong button, it's tough to beat him to the throw.  Somehow, in the midst
of all his button presses, you have to somehow beat him to throw.  Not easy
as you may think it is.

>>3) scissors kick   (block it and you lose energy.  can jump from far away)

>    This does a little less damage blocked then a blocked DP.  Quit
>winning.  You counter this the same as any standing kick.  Didn't you guys
>ever play Bison on SFII Clasic?  I remember how everybody thought the last
>guy was "so easy".

It's the same damage.  Usually blocked scissor kicks will hit you twice, 
whereas Ken/Ryu must be real close for you to block a DP twice.  The problem
is that he can scissor kick from very far away, and it has priority.  Bison
is the hardest guy on Classic.  Nowhere near "easy" (compared to the other
computer opponents).

>>4) head stomp  (Ken's delay time is too much.   a fireball and he gets stomped)

>    Takes *perfect* anticipation/timing to do this.  Maybe don't throw fireballs
>while Bison is obviously charging for it and waiting?  Just a thought.

true enough, but when Bison is charging, he's in "triple threat" position.
He can torpedo, scissor kick, or head stomp.  Bison can mix it up pretty well.

>>5) good overall speed

>    *laugh*.  Now *THIS* is the proof that Bison was designed to be supirior.
>He is in the middle of the speed race.  He's about up there with Guile.

>>6) good aerial priority

>    Does this mean his kick beats whomever you play? aerial priority means
>next to nothing - you have to guess if you wanna kick or punch is the
>thing.  And his air attacks are very quick (retraction).  If you do it
>to early you're coming down naked.

Bison doesn't have the best aerial priority.  Next to nothing, HA!  Ok, then.
I want to see you use Dhalsim and try to kick Blanka out of his jumping forward
kick.  Yes, I WANT to kick him, but his priority is greater than mine.

>>7) excellent throwing range   (does good damage, too)

>    Once again, average - right in the middle.

Once again, excellent throwing range.

>>8) jumps VERY high   (knocks all those Vegas off the machine   :)  )

>   WAY to long hang time.  FB/DP "tick" works extremely well on him.  HE
>is almost in capable of being effective FROM the air.  Takes him way to
>long to get to ya (if you are on the ground).

>>
>>
>>Granted, I don't play Bison, but I can beat anyone with Bison, but I don't 
>>cuz it's no fun. 

>    LAUGH.  Now this is real funny.  I've got 10 to 1 I could kill you using 
>Bison.  Or Chun Li for that matter (the anti-Bison for those who don't know).
> 

>>Bison, in the hands of master, will beat ANYONE

>   A Bison master has a *Real* tough time v. Z, Chun, Ken/Ryu, Guile. 




-- 
Brian T Odom

"We are all manufacturers -- some make good, others make trouble, and still
others make excuses."