From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:26:14 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Sep29.144957.27369@sarah.albany.edu> pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep28.195217.28323@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep28.181011.15765@sarah.albany.edu> pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep28.153900.28617@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>>>In article <matthew.717472103@munna> matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
>>>>>d89-mor@nada.kth.se (Monika Orski) writes:

>>>[...]

>>>>Nope, sorry, the presence of the book in his church is first-hand
>>>>evidence -- circumstantial ,but pretty strong, like the trout in the
>>>>milk.  Besides, the charge of anti-Semitism isn't made lightly in Poland.,
>>>>now, is it?

>>>[...]

>>>  ANY kind of accusation shouldn't be make lightly, I hope you'll agree
>>>with this.  In particular if you use word "anti-Semitism" indiscriminately
>>>it will loose all meaning.

>>Indiscriminately?  INDISCRIMINATELY?

>>I call a seller of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" an anti-Semite
>>and you call that "indiscriminate?"  Hell, that's practically the 
>>*definition* of an anti-Semite.  The book is anti-Semitic slander from
>>cover to cover, and has never been sold or praised by anyone who didn't
>>have a whopping hatred of Jewry.  

>>Or am I missing something in your posting?

>   Maybe you are really missing something in my posting. I will try
>to clarify the issue.  For me the accusation of anti-Semitism
>is a serious matter, since it is racial and violent ideology (if
>I may call it so).  

And this fraudulent book we're discussing is one of the mainstays of 
the racial and violent ideology.  It is a lie perpetrated with the 
explicit purpose of fomenting hatred toward, and violence against, Jews.
No more, no less.  The book has a long and disgusting history.  You
can look it up.

>To my understanding such accusations shouldn't be made lightly.  

Don't worry, no lighness was intended.

>I am not sure whether the fact the you sell
>particular book means that you subcribe to the views expressed
>in the book. 

What other reason would one have to sell the book?  Or is there
something I don't know about Polish church bookstores?  Have they
suddenly become places where one can pick up source material for 
study of anti-Semitism?  That doesn't jibe with my experience of
church bookshops; they usually have tracts and general religious
matter.  

What the hell is that disgusting book doing in a church bookstore?

> What about the freedom ?  Do you think that
>people selling guns in US are guilty of murders ?

Utterly irrelevant.  Gun shops are not churches.  People go to a gun
shop to buy a gun; no more, no less.  People go to church for various
reasons; but buying anti-Semitic slander and disgusting forgeries isn't
usually among those reasons.

Moreover, I've never encountered a book for sale in a church whose content
was not sanctioned by that church.  Churches don't usually sell mystery
stories or anti-clerical tracts or atheistic philosophy or computer
manuals.  Why this book?  What possible reason would they have to sell
it?

What about freedom, you ask?  Sure, the church can sell what it wants
to sell.  But since church bookstores *don't* sell things other than
books and pamphlets advancing their opinions, I can only assume that
this particular distressing example falls into that category.

>  To make my point clear: I have no doubts that "Protocols ..."
>are anti-Semitic, but selling, buying the book and reading it doesn't
>make me anti-Semitic.  Whow otherwise would I know what what
>is inside ? 

You're not a church, either.  Nor do you run a bookstore that otherwise
has a very specific mission.

And, frankly, if you do sell the book without offering some information
about its fraudulent nature, imho you *are* at the very least a dupe of
anti-Semites.

> How do you know ?  I do not think that to prohibit
>people from expressing their views is the best way to fight
>ideas.

Beside the point.  Moreover, since when has the Catholic Church been
a forum for competing ideas???????  When I see Das Kapital and the Zohar
and the Koran and Giovanni's Room and The Population Bomb in that store,
we can talk about expressing views.  Church bookstores are there to 
present ONE set of views, and I'm disgusted that, in at least one case,
that set of views includes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Now, suppose another bookstore sold the book.  Or chose not to.  Whose
views are expressed in the book?  If modern copyright laws had been
in effect back when the book had been written, it would have been impounded
for plagiarism, for one thing.  Next, the "views" in the book are demonstrab-
ly lies, which shouldn't prohibit publication, but doesn't exactly give the
book much priority, especially since that particular set of lies has 
already been used to inflame people to commit acts of violence including
mass murder.  Finally, note that no bookstore sells all titles.  What 
does it say about a bookseller that they choose to sell *that* book
among millions?

I've never seen the book in a reputable bookstore; only in catalogues 
from racist organizations.  And I never dreamed I'd hear of its sale
in a church.

>  I hope that this clarifies my views.

I hope I've clarified mine.  If you'd like them in a nutshell:

That a church offers the Protocols of the Elders of Zion for sale 
indicates that, in at least that parish, someone in a responsible
position is a virulent anti-Semite.  There is no other explanation. 

Roger