HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: Are Mormons Christians? (Was: WANTED: Former LDS,...)
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 00:43:24 GMT

From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
> In article <1992Oct16.173905.28599@newsgate.sps.mot.com>,
>  ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes:
> > tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer)
> [...]
> >> Not all refereces in the NT that talk about "salvation" could be
> >> the same as references to exalation.
> >
> > And none of these verses speak of devil-repellent underwear,
..
> If I wanted to offend some people, I might start inquiring about
> the "devil-repellant" crucifixes they wear, and do they really
> repell the devil (aside from what Hollywood tells us). Or are
> they rather a symbol to remind the person of something.

I dont think any religion makes wearing a crucifix a requirement
of being fully saved, or saved better.  (LDS term = exalted)

> > bloody (Masonic) oaths,
>
> "Bloody (Masonic) oaths" is not justified.  The similarities
> between the Masonic rites and the LDS Temple ceremonies is
> superficial.
>
> Even if there is more than a superficial connection, please
> show us how Masonry is inherently un- or anti- Christian.

I'm working on it.

> > goofing around with some guy behind a veil, etc...
>
> Just what are you trying to imply by "goofing around withsome guy
> behind a veil".

That it is something Joseph invented.  I have a hard time beleiving
this needed 'restoring' when there seems to be no indication signs
and tokens were ever a sacred part of early Chritianity.

> > Hard to beleive rejecting all this puts a person in a postion
> > of eternal damnation.
>
> Yes, it is, because it doesn't.
>
> In case you forgot, (most) Mormons believe that everyone will be
> saved in a kingdom of glory except the sons of perdition.  They
> are the ones that suffer eternal damnation.  They are cast into
> "outer darkness" which is a kingdom, but not a kingdom of glory.

I didnt forget, I just want to point out that anything less than
exaltation is damnation.  If you dont go through the business of
temples, gowns, tokens, underwear, marriage... you are a servant,
cut off from the real salvation, in its purest form -- the 3rd
heaven polygamous god type -- the type 'the saints seek.'

Again, I dont understand what all this has to do with the God of the
Bible.

Mark
<standard disclaimer>
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 13 Oct 92 02:08:25 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

eric states

>>No, that is FAR from what I am saying.  But Mormons LOVE to twist what I
>>am saying to make it sound like what you are saying I am saying.
>I'm not a mormon, sir.
>I am merely trying to get you to clarify your words. So, how is what
>you said different from what I said. Or, if you prefer, how is the
>statement that "Anyone who does not believe in the right Christology
>is damned." incorrect. One must presume that you believe in the right
>Christology.
>
>>  I think
>>the issue is dead.
>I don't. I think you're being evasive.

I didn't mean to imply that you were a mormon, and didn't think that you
necessarily were.  I stated that mormons ofter attack me with the same
argument that you have.  I honestly apologize for offending you.  I can
understand your postion.  I didn't mean for it to sound as if I though
you were an mormon, because I didn't know.

I am not being evasive eric, but I have explained this the best I know
how, and when it is repeated by you, it is not the same as I said.
This is not an attack on you or your understanding, but it tells me that I
am doing a poor job to get it across to you.

I aplogize that my points are unclear to you.  Maybe if you would
re-phase you question, I could try to answer it from that angle.  I don't
wish to avoid the issue, I just don't understand your misunderstanding.

Peace (I hope?),
-tony
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Rich men and Heaven
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 00:36:54 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <71516@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
Pitts) wrote:
Sandvik) writes:
> >Gladly, the following entry is let us say the story of Acts described
> >in four pages, I wrote it one night when I tried to figure out what 
> >Acts really described in forms of historical events. I know, it's biased
> >concerning my views of what happened, and it was an attempt to somehow
> >get to the real story behind the original church of Jerusalem and 
> >Paul, a really intriguing story, indeed. Warning, this is a long entry.
>> >The Acts constitutes the definite account of the first years of early
> >Christianity. It is heavily biased, however, but it's more of a personal
> >bias than a church based one. Acts, unlike the Gospels, tries to be a form
> >of chronicle over a continuous and extended period of time.
> 
> Agreed, except for what you mean by heavily biased.

My only followup comment is that the Acts are heavily biased in
favor of Paul, and what I tried to do was to look at the historical
events as a form of political intrigues inside the early Christian
church, where Paul finally gains the power. And actually, if you
look at Richard's followup comments, it's mostly Paul that defends
his actions, something that is very profound.

> In 2 Cor Paul is warning the people of another Jesus and that they should
> be aware of it.  He does not state, but yet you dream, that Paul is 
> decrying the Church in Jerusalem.

What is he then warning about? Who is this another Jesus?

> Oh - I thought it was the elders there in Jerusalem - why did Paul have
> to go back there, if he was so much in control?????????
And why did the church send out people checking what Paul did in the
land of Gentiles, also why did he need to travel back to Jerusalem
time after time?

Anyway, Acts is interesting reading, you just need to avoid all the
political material that is added to the story. Something Christians
still can't avoid is the fact that Paul is the main figure in 
Christianity, but when the mob wanted to kill him he didn't want
to become a martyr for his religion, instead he asked for help
from the Romans. No wonder Jews hated him.

Kent

Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 14 Oct 92 10:52:34 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1992Oct14.132825.10889@macc.wisc.edu>,
 bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner) writes:
> press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson) writes...
> 
>>Ok, I'll keep that handy. When another comes along saying their(lds)
>>scriptures are inerrant, I'll point out that Jason says No.
> 
> Tell them Joseph Smith said no too while you're at it.  Perhaps
> this will carry a bit more weight than Jason's name (sorry,
> Jason).  

On the contrary, thank you Dana, for the corroborating support.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Are Mormons Christians? (Was: WANTED Former LDS,...)
Date: 13 Oct 92 05:42:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct12.143955.7937@infonode.ingr.com>, tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes...
>In article <1992Oct10.232613.24541@newsgate.sps.mot.com> ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes:
>>
>>Kermit, where do you get the idea I am a Jehovah's Witness?  This
>>indicates to me you form decisions without fully investigating the
>>facts.
>>
>>I am not, nor have I ever been a Jehovah's Witness.  I can point you
>>to a 'full fledge JW' who will verify this for you.
>>
> 
> 
> Gee, I must be wrong, I'm sorry.  You argue (or have argued JW doctrine)
> from the viewpoint of a believer. I'm real sorry if someone got insulted...

	Mark's posts on Jehovah, Elohim and the Father and Jesus as 
espoused by the LDS should have been enough to dissuade one that he was
a JW.

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:16:08 GMT

In article <70498@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
}In article <ksand-071092185018@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
}|Well, Osiris rose from the dead, Mitras died weekly in the Mitras cult
}
}Where are their bodies today?   Jesus never died again - he is alive.

Where is Dracula's?

I'm still waiting for some test of Godhood that you care for me to take that
this "Jesus" can pass.  Looks like Dracula can pass that one.  The claim is
that it arose after three days, too.  I seem to recall some blood drinking
involved in Christianity, too.  Maybe a vampire cult?
From: brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Mormons . . . are Polytheists
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:00:25 GMT
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.



   "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming
Gods like himself . . .

   "The Lord has organized mankind for the express purpose
of increasing in that intelligence and truth, which is with
God, until he is capable of creating worlds on worlds, and
becoming Gods, even the sons of God."


                          Brigham Young
                          Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 92




          "This is what the Lord says--
             Israel's King and Redeemer, the
                 Lord Almighty:
           I am the first and I am the last;
              apart from me there is no God."


                          Isaiah 44:6



-------

Greetings to the Mormons out there in net-land.  Please 
examine the Mormon doctrines.  Please test everything to
see if it's true.  Hold fast to the truth.  I believe, 
with all my heart, that you follow the wrong Jesus.  
I know he's a different one that whom I follow.  Please
follow the real Jesus.  Please follow the one that doesn't
contradict himself.   Please follow the one that offers
eternal life and can make good on it.




Sincerely,


Brian Ceccarelli
brian@gamma1.lpl.arizona.edu
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Tyre still exists today (was: I'm God.)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 23:58:34 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <71533@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
Pitts) wrote:
> Clock cleaning comes a little later - God will take care of it.  I 
> seek to know Him.  I hold His word is true and it will not return
> void.  The prophecy is that Tyre was to be destroyed and not rebuilt.
> I think God will give us both the answer in due time.  What do you think?

Well, both you and I will die within +100 years or so, so there's none
of us present to verify that Tyre will be once again destroyed and 
not rebuilt. The moment you write it down, and someone registers it,
you are responsible for the prophecy. 

For instance, I would make this long term prophecy that San Francisco
will disappear into the sea, and not be rebuilt ever. I will not 
mention any dates and exact times, and we could wait for the next
million years or so to see the prophecy be true, if that's not true
then let us wait till the sun is blowing up as a nova and 
San Francisco will disappear for sure.

Anyway, Dr. Kennedy is responsible for his data, and if the data
is false, then he is lying deliberately. Looking at the evidence 
so far I would actually agree that Dr. Kennedy is on thin ice.

Could someone that have visited Tyre, or even are born around that
area confirm of the modern city of Tyre is built on top of the old
one, so we could finally terminate this silly prediction? The problem
I've seen is that skeptics have time after time showed that a prediction
is invalid, and still it pops up after a long dying period.

Cheers,
Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: ARE THERE ANY LDS GIFS?
Date: 7 Oct 92 12:52:57 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <f7ea02JB24q901@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, 
 rcs20@ccc.amdahl.com (Ray C Sensenig) writes:
> Do any of you BYU students, or anyone else for that matter,
> have any LDS GIFs or know where I can ftp any?  I need a
> background for work!

Try archive.nevada.edu

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
From: wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (Willard C. Smith)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Joseph a true latter-day prophet
Summary: An additional note
Date: 16 Oct 92 14:05:39 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T



One additional note Mark:

Walters, the Tanners, etc. are looking for only ONE revival. The evidence
is that there were MANY revivals. They came in WAVES: 1817 in Palymra; 1819
-20 in Vienna (Phelps), Farmington (Manchester), Penfield, Rochester, Lima,
West Bloomfield, Junius, and Oaks Corners; 1823-24 in Palymra, Williamson,
Ontario, Manchester, Sulphur Springs, Vienna, Lyons, Macedon, Mendon,
Geneva, Forham, and Clye.

One of the key point overlooked by Walters, et al. is that Joseph Smith
states only that in the "placed where he lived" there was "an unusual
excitement on the subject of religion." That "multitudes" joined the various
churches within the "whole region of the country." If one is going to date
the First Vision in 1820, the revival evidence is clear, within 25 miles
radius from the Smith household, there were 8 community revivals taking
place.

The 1823-24 revival activity again awakens Joseph Smith's spiritual
awareness and leads him to again inquire of God concerning his standing
before him and results in the sequence of events leading to the translation
of the Book of Mormon. Far from disrupting the basic chronology of events
Mr Walters has actually helped confirm the sequence and answered the
questions, "Why was there a period of time between the First Vision and the
coming of Moroni?" and "What moved Joseph Smith to make the inquiry that led
to the translation of the Book of Mormon?"

If various versions happen to mix up details from each of the different
waves of revivalism that occurred in that area, it is only to be expected.
William Smith was only 8-9 years old in 1819-1820, he was 12-13 years old
in 1823-24. The trama resulting from the death of his older brother Alvin
in 1823, the behavior of Rev. Stockman during the beginning of the revival
activity in the area, and the response of his family would add to the
possibility that William will associate the later revivals with the
experience of his brother.

The fact that Walters conviently overlooks all these things suggests to me
that his motivation is something other than objective historical inquiry.
-- 

              Willard C. Smith
  Oh God, Make my Words Palatable and Sweet, | att!cbnews!iwtgo!wcsa
   Because I Might have to Eat all of Them.  | wcsa@iwtgo.att.com
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Idaho
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 02:49:33 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <1992Oct14.180833.25211@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>,
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) wrote:
> >(If you are truly interested in a "ticket," then follow up on one of
> >Jesus' reported claims I noted in my last post.  That is, try out the
> >promise that those who seek first God's Kingdom and its righteousness
> >will have met their needs for food and clothing.  I'd be sincerely
> >interested in your findings.)
> 
> I seem to be wearing clothing, and I just ate lunch, so I'm not hungry.  I
> also don't believe in Jesus.

> If someone who seeks Jesus has food and clothing, and someone who doesn't seek
> Jesus has food and clothing, it would appear that seeking Jesus makes no
> difference.

I'm sure Greg has a really good explanation why the one billion people
of China have food and shelter, and they don't believe in Jesus. It's 
a miracle, again!

Cheers,
Kent
It is one of the superstitions of the human mind to have imagined that
virginity could be a virtue.  -- Voltaire
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: pwhite@ems.cdc.com (Peter White)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: God created the Word?
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:56:41 GMT
Reply-To: pwhite@ems.cdc.com
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of CDC

In article <1992Oct9.120648.1@woods.ulowell.edu>, cotera@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
-|> Can anyone explain the following verse in terms of the Trinity (note: I am not
-|> a JW):
-|>    The Lord possessed (created) me (the Word) in the beginning of His way,
-|>    before his works of old.
-|>                           Proverbs 8:22
-|> --Ray Cote 
I thought it was pretty clear that the the "me" in the verse is "wisdom" and
not "the Word". So, I don't look at it as having anything to do with confirming
or denying the Trinity. 

I'm curious to understand why it seems to you to imply "the Word" and not
"wisdom".

Peter White
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:57:18 GMT
Organization: voodoo, running from my magic, lynch mob: gorillas in the mist

In article <7g7LsB5w165w@topcat> 
topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>A Christian who objects, in principle, to the illegalization of
>homosexuality has the responsibility to confront biblical law honestly.  If
>the Torah is truly God's word, and not just the megalomaniacal ravings of a
>desert cult leader, then it is the objective standard of truth, in terms of
>which all men, institutions, and ideas must be judged.  It really comes
>down to the one question that has troubled humanity since the days of Adam
>and Eve: Is God's word our standard or not?  Ultimately, there is only one
>other alternative, the word of the serpent.

I'm afraid you have this all wrong. One choses to obey Mosaic Law, one does
not FORCE Mosaic Law unto others who chose other laws and other gods by
which to guide their life. Please, show a little respect for the Lord of the
Hebrews! Now, show me a Christian who follows Mosaic Law! Your people found 
the Mosaic Law too restrictive and too heavy a burden to carry, thus the New 
Covenant whereby all a Christian must do is believe that they can ride the 
coat-tails of Jesus into Heaven. Clearly any homosexual Christian qualifies 
for this free gift as well. You know, it's been said that one makes one's
heaven by the HATE one invokes in life. What kind of Heaven are you making for
yourself, of your HATE of your fellow human beings? The serpent you HATE and
strike down may be your own!
From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Are Mormons Christians?
Date: 14 Oct 92 01:02:27 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct13.042410.14730@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes:
> From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
> [...]
> >Hmmm...  Looks to me like the figure has a *very* long outie
> >navel or it is ment to be the figure's right fore-arm.

Non-binary thinking. Lots of gray.
Anything but a penis.
> 
[deletion Of Dr. Webb, neither LDS or a DR.]
> 
> Even though 'Dr. Webb' censored the obcsene material from his book,
> he admitted in _Improvement Era_, vol. 16, p.447, that the scene
> is phalluc.
> 
> So, to answer your question, the drawing of the Mormon god contains
> a penis, not an arm... and there are other copies of the same
> scene.

Binary thinking, too absolute, not enough gray. Need to always
keep the door open, no absolute finality:-)
Jason won't accept this.
Maybe he was singing to a crowd with a microphone, and placed
the microphone between his legs to pause for the painting. 
Or he was blessing a crowd with a stick of some sort and placed it
between his legs for the painting. Binary thinking will lead
you to the penis explanation.

> 
> >Also, recent research has turned up many references to "Abraham"
> >in many ancient Egyptian documents from the same period.  I'll
> >have to find the article for you.
> 
> I have heard of one, but it is far from ancient -- compared to
> the one Abraham was supposed to have authored himself.  I think
> the one you refer to is from a post Christ era, and contains not
> only the name Abram, but Christ, and Jacob, and Isaac.
>
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Idaho
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:19:35 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <1992Oct9.162941.29724@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>,
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) wrote:
> You don't have to believe in Idaho to buy a plane ticket there.  You do have
> to believe the Bible before you can use the Bible as evidence.  The Idaho
> evidence "comes from believers" in the sense that someone who doesn't believe
> in Idaho probably isn't going to sell plane tickets to go there, but not in
> the sense that you already have to believe in Idaho before plane flights are
> any good to you as evidence.

I must actually confess that I do believe that Idaho exists. OK, start
laughing, I know, I'm a fool.

Cheers,
Kent
	Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to	investigate. -F.M.
Knowles
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons and Human Statistics
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:35:18 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

In article <Bw6961.I0K@mail.boi.hp.com>, jhays@boi.hp.com (John_D. Hays) writes...

>In article <28o402v326Xo01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (TONY ROSE) writes:

>>I have other statistics from the Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret News,
>>(Mormon owned newspapers in SLC) with similar articles.  I will post these
>>later.
> 
>Is the Tribune owned by the Church, I don't know for sure?

It most certainly is not owned by the LDS church.  It was founded by ex-
Mormons and ran a vigorous anti-LDS campaign for decades.  At one time 
reading the SL Tribune was considered grounds for excommunication.  I do
not know if present ownership is in the hands of LDS members.  I suspect
it is not, as the paper is still not warmly received by LDS leadership.
However I believe a working relationship has been established between
the Deseret News & the Tribune to share resources.

I have read the Tribune from time to time (it's hard to get in the Midwest)
and I find it to be a fairly good newspaper.

Dana