HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:19:34 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Jul20.203806.28102@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>When it turns 18, apparently.  Until that time, it will attend the
>school its parents want, do the things its parents want, not do the
>things its parents don't want.  Or so seems to be the position of some
>here, judging by what they've said here.

At no age beyond 0 does a parent have the right to torture, murder,
or otherwise injure their child.  Schooling and child rearing a far
cry from murder.

>Things without brainwaves probably can't really be considered a
>'child'.  And there's your difference.  Now, if you're talking LATE
>abortion, there is more justification required.

Good.  Then you agree exactly with my position on abortion.  Any child
with a heartbeat and/or brainwaves may not be killed without due process.
That would put the upper limit on legal abortion at 5 to 8 weeks
gestational age.

I suspect you'd find far more support for this position than either of the
"abortion on demand" or "no abortions ever" positions.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Vida en La Republica de Tejas:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            |  A Tejana woman, after spending the rent
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  money on the Tejas Lottery - "I can't go
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  home, my husband will beat me up."
From: cwinemil@keys.lonestar.org (Chris Winemiller)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Running for St. Rep
Date: 25 Jul 92 01:38:30 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: None

skywalker@DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU (Timothy B. Reynolds) writes:

> I would like to run for state office, where does one start ?
> who do you contact/notify ?

Try contacting your current state rep's office (or state senator).  You
should be able to find them in the phone book; or, you can call your City
Hall and ask how to contact them.

Another alternative: contact the local headquarters of the political party
you're part of.

Chris

-- 
Chris Winemiller         Internet: cwinemil@keys.lonestar.org
                         UUCP    : texsun!letni!keys!cwinemil
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 16:08:07 GMT
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <00711843674@elgamy.sccsi.com>, elg@elgamy.sccsi.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
|> Au contraire. The medical profession as a whole draws the line for the end
|> of life as being "displays brainwaves compatible with human life." Brain
|> waves go flat, boom, you're allowed to disconnect the heart pump and
|> respirator and ship the stiff off to the morge.

This is merely an accepted medical and legal convention and is quite 
arbitrary.

|> What John Haugh is saying is that perhaps we should apply this same
|> standard to the BEGINNING of life, too.

Maybe we should.  I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, I'm just
saying it's arbitrary.  Even if we do accept this by convention, we
still have to decide if its "life" takes precedence over its host's
desire not to have it attached to her.

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 15:52:37 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <1992Jul22.195004.25794@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
|> I'm curious, John (and others); just where do you draw
|> the line?  Does merely having human DNA make something a 'human
|> being'?  Or is there something more than that?

It's obviously "human" if it has 46 chromosomes and so forth.  Whether
or not it's a "being" I guess depends whether your definition of
"being" requires consciousness, and if so if you can even measure the
presence of consciousness in any reliable way.  But even if you can
resolve all of this, the big leap is in granting equal protection
under the law to something just because it contains human DNA.

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 22 Jul 1992 13:25:20 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <21184@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>If the plants and animals that you are biologically dependent on for
>your continued survival decide that you must die, you will go quietly?
>I hear the voice of a cow protesting your parasitical dependence on
>its relations for your food ...

Once again, you miss the point. How many times do I have to make it?

I am not dependent on any particular cow. Any cow will serve. They're
interchangeable as far as my biological needs are concerned.

The same is not true of a fetus. It is biologically dependent on one
particular host mother. No other person will serve.

See the difference yet? Or are you just ignoring it? Or are you too stupid to
see it?
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
  "An empty stomach is not a good political adviser." -- [edible] fortune
          cookie, received the night Perot withdrew from candidacy
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 15:22:17 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <L7Lqr*CK0@caleb.UUCP>, jdp@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) writes:
|> It is really quite simple and logical.  Murder is worse than slavery.  Therefore,
|> your argument carries no weight.

Number one, abortion is not murder.  Number two, woman are protected
from slavery by the 13th amendment to the US Constitution.  A fetus's
right to gestate is only protected by a few unenforced state laws. 
The US Constitution takes precedence.

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
From: elg@elgamy.sccsi.com (Eric Lee Green)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:15:54 GMT
Organization: Eric's Amiga 2000 @ Home

From article <1992Jul29.225520.17833@watson.ibm.com>, by john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti):
> In article <1992Jul26.180302.19982@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
> |> Not so arbitrary at all.  When the brain is gone, whatever you have
> |> left isn't a human being.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, if you have 46 chromosomes, you're a human
> being--brain or not.

Okay. Let me take a scraping from the inside of your cheek. Then I'll
culture it in a Petri dish for a few days. Presto, instant human being!

Not, you say? Why, it has 46 chromosomes, doesn't it?!

It is ridiculous to speak of something being a human being if it doesn't
have a brain. When the doctor does a culture of a removed tumor, then ships
the remains to the incinerator, surely you don't insist that he is
committing murder?

--
 Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.sccsi.com         Dodson Elementary
 (713) 437-6908  uunet!nuchat!elgamy!elg      Houston, TX
                "Kids are kids, no matter what"
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: separation of church and state
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 15:30:57 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <1992Jul22.184429.28279@oakhill.sps.mot.com>, carder@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Darrell Carder) writes:

|> How about taking on the responsibility of your own actions.

Sounds good to me, but what does this mean in terms of concrete things
to teach in school?

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 26 Jul 92 16:53:14 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Jul25.222648.23046@rice.edu> kossack@qvi.com writes:
>In article <21189@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>|> measure and read brainwaves at 8 weeks.  Children react to light and noise
>|> by 3 months and display boredom if given the same sounds repetively.
>
>	How do you explain pop music, then.   :-)  

The songs don't last long enough to be boring ;-)
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Vida en La Republica de Tejas:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            |  A Tejana woman, after spending the rent
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  money on the Tejas Lottery - "I can't go
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  home, my husband will beat me up."
From: rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: fetus vs. baby
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:06:58 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900

In article <1992Jul31.121627.2564@tamsun.tamu.edu> dlb5404@tamsun.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) writes:
>>have cut the number of abortions drastically if they had just put their
>>time into preventing unwanted pregnancies......
>
>The last sentence shows a surprising level of ignorance about exactly
>*what* steps the pro-life crowd is taking towards the goal of reducing
>unplanned pregnancies.

	Why haven't we heard any anti-abortionist in this group saying
that we should get our asses out there to reduce unplanned pregnancies?
All we've heard is that these "bad", irresponsible women, are murdering
living babies, and, here, here are the photos....(blah, blah, blah)...

>Yes, they're geared toward showing people *why* it's better to remain
>celibate until you're really ready to have children.  But it
>is certainly an effort to curtail unplanned pregnancies.  Oh, I'm
>sorry, you wanted us to be handing out condoms to sixth graders.

	Not I. I'll admit that I haven't heard about any positive 
efforts by the anti-abortionists. This is encouraging. Maybe there
are a few among that crowd that really do care.

>In addition the charter for an organization to run a maternity home here
>has been signed, and fund raising is well underway.  (How many maternity
>homes does Planned Parenthood run?  Every one I've seen is run by
>pro-life groups, but maybe there are some that aren't.  Please
>enlighten me.) 
>
>Also, one of the most ardent pro-lifers I know is also a foster parent.
>Right now they have one natural child plus the foster child.  The foster
>child is black.  These parents are also considering adopting her (this
>is not a trivial decision.  There are lots of repercussions to mixed-
>race adoptions, and there is no way out of some of them).
>
>Again these are just for starters.  Feel free to look around in your
>own community.  You might be surprised.
>
	Well, I, for one, will look. I may well join such a group. Thanks
for the info.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Mullally (rocky@sugar.neosoft.com) PH:713-681-2495
"You know what they say about a honey bear. If you shave off all that baby
hair, you have a hairy-minded pink bare bear."- Lou Reed.
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:29:03 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc

In article <1992Jul22.160135.14763@watson.ibm.com> johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.225849.20261@twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com>, darylb@sword.eng.hou.compaq.com (Daryl Biberdorf) writes:
>|> Not really.  We usually define clinical death as being the absence of
>|> heartbeat or brainwaves (or both), so doesn't it make sense to define
>|> life (in humans) as the presence of both of these functions?
>
>That presumes that a heartbeat or brainwaves were once present and
>then stopped.  I don't think it makes sense to consider a fetus that
>hasn't started a heartbeat or brain activity yet to be "dead".  It's
>obviously a living organism.

Well, I'm not so sure of that.  I mean, it's obviously living TISSUE,
but so is my finger.  It has human DNA, but so does my finger.  What
makes an embryo (foetus comes later, I believe) so "obviously a living
organism" rather than simply being a growth attached to the mother?

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 23:03:11 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <21211@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
 
|> Oh, who the hell knows the source.  It was on the damned radio.

Hypocrisy alert!  How come Fred can't get away with "I saw it on TV
when I was flipping through the channels", but you try to get away
with "It was on the damned radio"?

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
From: skywalker@DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU (Timothy B. Reynolds)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: House voting records
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:29:03 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: X-Ray Crystallography / Howard Hughes Medical Institute

Anyone know where I can get a record of my state Rep.'s voting on 
state and local issues ?

Thanks,
tim
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 25 Jul 92 18:20:29 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Jul22.155514.30120@watson.ibm.com> johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>The word "fetus" had been used for centuries to describe humans prior
>to birth.  Maybe the use of the word in the vernacular is more common
>now, but any emotional conclusions that you come to as a result of
>hearing the word are your own.

Actually, it hasn't.  In the English speaking world, "baby" is and
was the most common term.  Women (and song writers for that matter)
did not say "I'm having a fetus."

>An embryo/fetus is a parasite - it gets into your womb and sets up
>house.  How it got there is irrelevant to its being a parasitic
>relationship.

You are a parasite.  You got into your domicile and set up house.
How you got there is irrelevant.  The trees that were slaughtered
to build the house don't care for the parasitic relationship you
have developed ...

"Parasite" means something, and it doesn't mean "unborn child."
This is NOT Lewis Carrol's "Through the Looking Glass" ...
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Vida en La Republica de Tejas:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            |  A Tejana woman, after spending the rent
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  money on the Tejas Lottery - "I can't go
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  home, my husband will beat me up."
From: rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: fetus vs. baby
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:00:09 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900

In article <1992Jul30.215217.1421@technology.com> richard@technology.com (Richard Murphy) writes:
> I think the anti-abortion people could
>have cut the number of abortions drastically if they had just put their
>time into preventing unwanted pregnancies......
>

	Bravo!


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Mullally (rocky@sugar.neosoft.com) PH:713-681-2495
"You know what they say about a honey bear. If you shave off all that baby
hair, you have a hairy-minded pink bare bear."- Lou Reed.
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: darylb@sword.eng.hou.compaq.com (Daryl Biberdorf)
Subject: Re: fetus vs. baby
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp.
Distribution: tx
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:17:22 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.150658.27264@NeoSoft.com> rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally) writes:
>In article <1992Jul31.121627.2564@tamsun.tamu.edu> dlb5404@tamsun.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) writes:
>>The last sentence shows a surprising level of ignorance about exactly
>>*what* steps the pro-life crowd is taking towards the goal of reducing
>>unplanned pregnancies.
>
>	Why haven't we heard any anti-abortionist in this group saying
>that we should get our asses out there to reduce unplanned pregnancies?
>All we've heard is that these "bad", irresponsible women, are murdering
>living babies, and, here, here are the photos....(blah, blah, blah)...

You already have heard pro-lifers saying we should get our asses out
there to reduce unplanned pregnancies.  Pro-choicers refuse to listen
to us say this because most pro-lifers don't believe in telling people
to avoid sex while at the same time giving them condoms as if that
will magically cure the problem.

Teaching people *how* to avoid situations that could lead to pregnancy or
a sexually transmitted disease did far more to lower the rate of unplanned
pregnancies and STDs than the post-sexual-revolution advocacy of condoms u
ever did.

>>Yes, they're geared toward showing people *why* it's better to remain
>>celibate until you're really ready to have children.  But it
>>is certainly an effort to curtail unplanned pregnancies.  Oh, I'm
>>sorry, you wanted us to be handing out condoms to sixth graders.
>
>	Not I. I'll admit that I haven't heard about any positive 
>efforts by the anti-abortionists. This is encouraging. Maybe there
>are a few among that crowd that really do care.

Cripes!  Have you ever even *contacted* a pro-life organization to
see what they advocate?  (And I'm not talking about Operation Rescue;
they do not represent all pro-lifers.)  Why not contact the National
Right to Life Committee, Feminists for Life, Birthright, and the other
crisis pregnancy centers in and around Houston?

Btw, *most* pro-lifers really do care.  Saying that the pro-lifers who
make it to the evening news are representative of the pro-life movement
is like saying Germaine Greer is representative of pro-choicers and all
feminists in general.

>>In addition the charter for an organization to run a maternity home here
>>has been signed, and fund raising is well underway.  (How many maternity
>>homes does Planned Parenthood run?  Every one I've seen is run by
>>pro-life groups, but maybe there are some that aren't.  Please
>>enlighten me.) 
>>
>>Again these are just for starters.  Feel free to look around in your
>>own community.  You might be surprised.
>>
>	Well, I, for one, will look. I may well join such a group. Thanks
>for the info.

Please do.

Daryl
--
Daryl Biberdorf                 |  Compaq Computer Corporation | standard
darylb@sword.eng.hou.compaq.com |  20555 SH 249  M/S 060701    | disclaimer
dlb5404@tamsun.tamu.edu         |  Houston, TX 77070           | applies
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 15:55:14 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <21185@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
 
|> Before the 60's, unborn babies where just "babies" - the same kind of
|> "babies" as we refer to when we look at a 6 week old.  The distinction
|> "fetus" versus "child" is NEW.  It only exists to objectify the child
|> into a non-human lump of tissue.

The word "fetus" had been used for centuries to describe humans prior
to birth.  Maybe the use of the word in the vernacular is more common
now, but any emotional conclusions that you come to as a result of
hearing the word are your own.

|> A parasite is a specific type of
|> organism.  A tapeworm is a parasite - it gets into your stomach and set up
|> house.  A child is the result of sexual reproduction.  Biologically there
|> is a universe of difference.

An embryo/fetus is a parasite - it gets into your womb and sets up
house.  How it got there is irrelevant to its being a parasitic
relationship.

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: kossack@owlnet.rice.edu (Jordan Marc Kossack)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Reply-To: kossack@qvi.com
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Distribution: tx
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 22:26:48 GMT

In article <21189@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
|> measure and read brainwaves at 8 weeks.  Children react to light and noise
|> by 3 months and display boredom if given the same sounds repetively.

	How do you explain pop music, then.   :-)  

-- 
 Jordan M Kossack  |  "Don't dial 911;    
 kossack@rice.edu  |   Dial M1911A and let it ring seven times." 
  +1 713 240 2073  |         -- sybok@m37-332-1.MIT.EDU (The Terminator)