From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:32:23 GMT

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:


>In article 5Eu@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>>In article 6IE@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>>>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>>>>In article 7@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>>>
>>>>The argument is pathetic - compelling!  Why so?  You are however correct
>>>>about when the Jews became a majority in Jerusalem.  However, recent history
>>>>is important and that is what we are considering.  The only reason the Arabs 
>>>>were even a majority is because foreign occupiers (like the British or the Turks)
>>>>prevented free Jewish immigration.  Just look at the British White Papers, 
>>>>especially the White Paper of 1939.  This is essentially what is important.  
>>>>Thearabs became a majority artificially - only because the Jews were held back.
>>
>>>I think you are about the most ignorant poster on t.p.m for quite a while.
>>>Let's see you find some figures to back up this stupid claim.  Alternatively,
>>>find one professional Israeli demographer who supports you.  (You will fail,
>>>because Israel is a world leader in demographic research.)
>>
>>You seem to rely on "figures" to answer every argument.  It doesn't take figures

>Yes, figures are better than myths any day for me.

>>nor a great genius to realize that a comparison between how the Arabs migrated
>>to Palestine and how the Jews did is not equal.  You certainly aren't denying
>>that the British White Papers restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine.  I
>>certainly don't need to rent a copy of Exodus to know that Jewish ships were
>>turned back from Haifa port and sent to internment camps while the Arabs
>>simply had to cross the Jordan River (if you can even call the Jordan a
>>river - at some points it flows more like a creek). 

>Even under the restrictive conditions of the White Paper, Jewish 
>immigration into Palestine exceeded Arab immigration.  That's what
>the official statistics show; if you have evidence to the contrary
>you should post it.

As I said before, it is certainly easier to document Jews who must travel
across the ocean on ships and actually be counted and registered at a port
than Arabs who simply need to cross a river.  Though I have no evidence on
this point at this time, I logically assume that this is the case.

>I have several times stated that I strongly disapprove of British
>war-time behaviour concerning the Holocaust, so you won't be
>able to get me on that one. 

>>By the way, name calling is the last refuge of a non-thinker.

>So stop calling your political opponents "racists".  

If the Israelis denied Arabs the right to live anywhere in Israel just 
because they were Arabs, you would call them racists too.

>>>>Even though the arabs were a majority, there was no indication of permanancy.
>>>>I may reside in  Illinois, but since I have not shown a tendency toward 
>>>>permanancy, I am not considered a resident.  The Moselms never established
>>>>any provincial centers, Islamic schools, or any significant institutions in
>>>>Palestine.  They were there only by convinience, the convinience being that
>>>>massive Jewish immigration provided job oppurtunities in a financially
>>>>depressed area.
>>
>>>Hogswill.  All this sort of crap has been pushed here before, but nobody
>>>ever provided evidence.  Can you?  
>>
>>What evidence do I need?  Where are the great provinical centers, institutions,
>>or schools established by the "Palestinians" in the great amount of time 
>>during which you claim they lived in the land.  You certainly know that some
>>of the largest clans on the West Bank, like the Ja'abari and Masri clans,
>>derive from Iraq and Syria respectively.  What evidence do you possess which
>>claims that the Arabs who lived in Palestine had lived there permanently
>>throughout all those years?  The facts on the ground certainly don't reflect
>>that.

>You have heard about a few exceptions and want to believe they
>are the rule.  Here are the fractions of residents of Palestine who
>were born outside Palestine at the 1931 census:  
>    Moslems 2%, Christians 20%, Jews 58%.
>Similar sorts of figures are available from the earlier Ottoman censuses.
>If you don't believe these numbers, post your evidence against them.

I will check on these figures and get back to you.  By the wy, where are you
getting these numbers?

>>Anyway, the question is not who lived on the land, but who owned it.  If Arab
>>squatters were disenfranchised, then I'm sorry - the land was not theirs 
>>anyway.  Of the land now known as Israel, Jews who lived there owned a
>>considerable amount more than Arabs who did. 

>This is totally false.  Evidence please.

Arabs who actually resided in what became Israel owned 3.3% of the land while
Jews who actually resided in Israel owned 8.6% of the land.  16.5% percent
was owned by absentee landlords.  Discounting rich Arab landlords who lived
in other countries and weren't essentially Palestinian, of those who lived
in the land, the majority owners were Jews.  Additionally, 70% of the land
was owned by the Mandatory government.  Thus, when Israel became a state,
that land was officially and legally transferred to the new Israeli gvt.

	       -Survey of Palestine, 1946, British Mandatory Gvt, p.247

>>Ed Shnekendorf.

>Brendan.

Ed Shnekendorf.


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