From: oberland@vax.sonoma.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: I think the **AXIS** may be able to :)
Date: 18 Nov 92 08:40:59 GMT
Organization: Sonoma State University

Here goes. D/L this if you want, as it is rather lengthy.

>>1: I played no Russia Attack rules this time.
>>2: By taking africa, I meant Egypt.
>>
>>I did the following in damage:
>>83 IPC damage vs. UK first turn

Damage done: 2 trans,  2BS, sub,  tank and 2i

>This is a strange figure.  I don't see the UK building BB's, so when I
>lose 2 of them, I don't feel as bad as if I lost 16 inf.  The Germans
>always blow at least 1 away (sometimes they are too busy with other
>plans to trash the other).
>>(wow)
>>19 IPC damage vs. Russia first turn

Damage done: trans, sub, and i

>Same deal here, you killed the two russian naval units.  I bet russia
>would have gladly traded those for 4 inf, probably for 3 inf.

Every bit helps.  You suggesting that I shouldn't attack them, as they are not
worth it?( ;)  )

>>(yes, folks, 102(!!) damage first turn!)
>
>Yep, the first turn has a lot of attrition.
>
>>Damage sustained:
>>20 IPC (sub, fighter)

Compare this to the AVERAGE win/loss ratio for
Germany. looks a bit better,  IMO.  Quite a bit better...

>>(I did get a LITTLE better than average luck, but not really)
>>-No Russia to attack, so... guess why I smashed everything else?
>>Figure about two men more lost, on average-would raise to 26 loss for me)
>>
>>Territory taken:
>>Caucasus(2 I and a tank there)-small force. JUST enough to split Russia's
>>attack force.  ONLY men in range of russia(germany pieces).
>>Russia pulled it ALL (almost) into Karelia. left one or two guys in >>Caucasus.

OKAY here is what I exactly
have:(looked at board again)
3i and tank in Caucasus
3i and Tank in Norway
3i in Ukraine
4i in E Europe
I wish the fools luck if they decide to attack.
They have almost all infantry, and should loose enough for me to
counter-attack and really screw them good.  4 places for them to attack.
Each has the potential of a counter-attack if left alone, and a combined
attack at the very least.

>Well, if your turn leaves units to be crushed, in a way that should be
>thought of as part of your losses.
>
>>All tanks retreat to germany and S europe.

Read the last line again. we are trading infantry.  He has almost half
the income that I have, and is fighting against cheap defense(reverse
of what he should be doing, which is letting ME do that)

>>(they now have to choose: E europe, Ukraine, Caucasus, AND fortify Russia
>>due to other German move)
>
>Gee Joe, I guess the Russians take E europe, and as much other stuff asthey 
>can.  Cuts your main army off!

Big deal.
Can they take it all with mostly infantry? I think not, and remain alive long.
I just attack with all the rest of the units into Karelia or re-take the 
territory with my EIGHT tanks (if I transport one) and MY FOUR FIGHTERS and
BOMBER.  And that is not including 8 men from Germany, and 2 men from
W. Europe(trans).  Hope they send a load of stuff in there for me to chew up.
AT BEST, all they get the first round is cheap infantry.

>>Fr. west and eq. africa
>>Egypt
>>Syria - THE key, IMO- allows use of Suez canal, if Egypt is also tak, on turn
>>two.
>
>Woah, getting ahead here.  You mean if you still hold it when turn 2
>comes around.  The British might use their India force to take it back.

Explain:
Fighters and Bombers from UK cannot reach, due to my taking their places to
land.(the REAL reason why I took it)

Lessee.... WHAT INDIA FORCE???
2i and a Fighter.
All other pieces gone in range.  NO support for India, and it falls(it did)
to Japan the first turn, with 2i transported, and 2 fighters attacking
(and a man from Indochina if needed).
Looks REALLY grim for India.  Hope the UK didn't build an IC there (heh)

Well, they CAN retake Syria...
Russian tank out of range(from eastern front)
Russia can send a fighter and reach me(as can India),
but think about it.. Russia NEEDS that fighter badly. they can land it
in Persia(only place), but that leaves me with a tank and a fighter in range.

Uk? Well, an attack of 3 vs. my defense of a 2? not too bad, BUT...
they loose that fighter, and Japan cake-walks all over India and the rest of
Asia the FIRST turn.
BADDD strategy for them, considering that I have the following in Africa:
2i, tank, fighter(so, I got lucky-I am one infantry up), and the tank in Syria.
vs. 2 i from US and 1i in S. Africa.
Looks grim. 

>>Total IPC collected: 40(wow!)
>>
>>Tank in Syria, Egypt, and a fighter and 2 men in other African territories.
>>(one lone man in S. Africa to fend for itself- heh)
>>
>>That tank in Syria allows attack vs Caucasus if retaken(and 1 or two >>pieces
>>left there-good odds, IMO, OR can attack US or UK positions in Asia
>>OR can take land in Russia (heh)

OR take India(Japan only need flatten it-MAD is okay)
OR get transported

>>Looks like a REAL 3-front war on Russia.
>>
>>Two turns to re-build Allied atlantic fleet, and move units into attack
>>position(invade) bought for AXIS.
>>
>>Germany still has MOST of its starting pieces, and has inflicted
>>MASSIVE damage at little loss to itself to the Allies.
>
>Sure, but is about to be smushed by the Russians.  Boy, you should talk
>to the guy with the "programmed allied victory", he was assuming the
>Germans retreat, and give up E. Europe.  He had this "innovation" of the
>Russians taking E. Europe under theses conditions, and winning the game.

Heh. look at it again.  Looks really decieving.
HOW many of your infantry will get wasted on my paltry infantry?
Can you take 4 areas at once with what you start with(plus your build)?
I assume all infantry, or maybe a tank, too.

WHY?  
Last game I played, the guy left Karelia a bit open(2-3 i less),
and I sent everything that I could(and kill the UK fleet).  Flattened it.
Problem: NO UK support landed (their transports fried)
AND they lost the fighters, too.

Russia had no choice but to put a LOT of stuff in Karelia, since he could not
attack the first turn, knowing what I did last time.

>>Note: Germany builds transport(s?) in S. europe.
>>ONLY plane that can anything against the AXIS fleet is the UK bomber,
>>(but they have to us it to kill that sub and trans. in the UK)
>>well, possibly not, but, the only place that they could land would be 
>>Gibraltar.  They would be nailed the next turn.(heh)
>>So, Germany sends 1 A and 2 I to Africa, as well as using that fighter it >>has
>>there :) the next turn.
>>
>>*NOTE#2*: By taking Syria, the Russian fighters and the UK planes cannot
>>land ANYWHERE and remain safe.(Russia's fighters are useless, btw)
>>
>>Seems that the AXIS income should be about 70 by the end of turn one.
>
>Pretty close, though by the time the Germans get their next move they
>will have lost a lot of stuff!

*BZZT!*
WRONG! almost entirely infantry, in defensive battles.
UK is a FOOL if he uses that bomber to do anything but move it somewhere,
or IPC bombing.  All he can reach is ONE transport.

My counter-attack with 40 in tanks and planes alone(plus about 10+ infantry in
Germany and whatever else is left in the other areas)will turn Russia into
mush since I have no fleet to worry about.

Russia's losses: at least 10-15 men in the attack on me, and 5-8 men on my
counter-attack.(don't forget that BS/trans combo)

Seems like I am ahead in the attrition war, and with 40 IPC to spend next turn,
all going to Russia, guess who gets wasted?  
PLUS the fact that the tanks he has are gone, if not when he attacks, then
when I attack back.

He has to take Norway, or I will attack for sure.
He has to take E. Europe, or I will blitz and take Karelia with about 4 tanks
   left, or more(will loose some planes to keep Karelia)
He has to take Caucasus, due to proximity to Russia itself, and attacks into
Asia. His attack force needed to take my 13i+2a out: minimum 19i plus tanks.

OUCH!  Endless supply of men?  I think not.  Divide and...
:)

>>P.S. sub and transport are in UK.  Better send in those fighters...
>>Bomber? where to?  IPC raid or do something else. heh. love to see them 
>>sweat. :)

About the UK:
        
My sub and transport around UK require him to use BOTH fighters.
If my transport hits first round, he CANNOT build any naval fleet.
(If he uses only one, as I will loose the sub in that case)
I get avg of two "flak"(one) rolls, anyway.

He cannot take any chances on this happening.  Send in both to be sure.
My options:
1:Retreat sub, and accept loss of transport(they hit avg of once, first round.
2:Loose sub, and take 2(avg), maybe 3 "flak(1)" rolls vs those fighters.

They would die soon anyway. All those pieces are for is to kill as much stuff
as possible. The allies NEED those pieces, though.
Germany needs to stall them.  
With a sub roaming free, guess who gets sneaked next turn?

At the very least, I will fry him.  UK is not in a position to do much the
second turn, so at most, 2 fighters are sent to Karelia for defense.
(ooohh, run away...)

Max lost by next turn(avg):
3 tanks, 10 i, sub, and two transports.
(oooh, a whole 69!!!)
HOW MUCH HAVE THEY LOST(plus land)?

hint:15 land, avg. plus 102 damage for me, attacking, and another 30-45
on defensive battles.
132-147(140 avg)

Japan's damage:Hawaii fleet, i in Hawaii, fighter and trans in counter-attack,
2i and fighter from India, 2i and fighter in China, those men in Yakut(he sent
the tank towards Germany, as a good Russian commander should)or sfe(whichever
has the most in it).
79(US) vs 12-15(Rus), plus 9-12 in defense
100-106(103 avg)

Losses, at WORST, attack and defending:
Germany:75(assuming all four taken)
Japan:141(assuming 3 ighters lost, and ALL men on continent-not likely)

So, that leaves, AVG vs WORST-CASE, 232-253(242 avg)AXIS vs 216 ALLIES.
It usually plays out to 240/200 or so.  Not optimal, but add in territory,
and it looks a LOT better than usual.

>>>>>
My plan, at the very least, works a hell of a lot better than anything else
I have seen if Russia stacks in Karelia in anticipation of my normal attack.
If they think I will do this, I do the other classic Karelia invasion,
and face a stiff, but winable battle.(plus I take out those planes)

That no russia attack rule allows this to happen, and makes the game much
longer, and a real challange for both sides.  Since this is what the game
SHOULD have been like(a fair contest), I feel that this rule is the ONLY
way to play the game.  Not using it reduces the game to sheer luck, and
desperate attack moves by the AXIS, and little luck, and no-brainer moves
for the Allies.  Stomping on your friends is fun, but if it is really easy,
a hollow victory, or is not a stiff challange for BOTH of you, then it is
all pointless...

ENTIRE MOVES TO BE POSTED THIS SAT.  Both strategies will be posted for
Germany, and will be a LOT less lengthy.
Joe

P.S. Sorry for the length. Will try to keep it down as much as I can...
Newsgroups: rec.games.board