From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: Mormons, a different Jesus
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 01:53:45 GMT

 From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
>  ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes:
> [...]
> > The LDS 'description of his mother and the way she conceived' is
> > not the Bible description.  The LDS historically have taught that
> > the 'virgin birth' was merely God the father, an exalted man with
> > a body of flesh and bones, having sex with Mary.
>
> "... [Mary] was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (Matt.1:18.)
> [NIV, renders it "through the Holy Ghost"]
>
> "Then Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know
> not a man?"  [NIV, renders it "since I am a virgin?"]
>
> "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall
> come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow
> thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee
> shall be called the Son of God."  (Luke 1:34-35.)
>
> These are the only bible passages (that I can find) that
> deal specifically with the conception of Jesus Christ.
>
> What are the possibilities that can be inferred from these two
> passages regarding the conception of Christ?

You left one out.  Matthew refers to Isaiah 7:14 about Jesus's
conception fulfilling the words of the prophet.  The prophecy was
that Jehovah would give us a sign.  The sign would be that a
virgin would conceive and bear a child.

   Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring
   forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
   interpreted is, God with us.  (Mt 1:23)

Historically the LDS have taught that the Father, being a personage
of flesh and bones as tangible as our own, performed the action himself,
in the same way we beget children.  Nothing figurative.  The LDS
reject the idea that the Holy Spirit could miraculously cause
conception, and thus a real man was needed, and that man was
the LDS Father God -- with all the right equipment, but apparently
not quite in all the right places.

There are 2 obvious problems with this, since the LDS Father God
has a body of flesh and bones, Mary would not be a virgin when it
is all said and done.  Not much of a sign -- a virgin will have sex;
that must have been happening on a regular basis in Israel.  The
other rather inherent problem with this is, the LDS God is supposedly
the literal father of Mary in pre-existance.  This results in
a rather incestous relationship.

> How does a female become pregnant "of/through the Holy Ghost"?

How does a blind man recieve sight of/through the Holy Spirit?
Is the LDS father God also an opthamologist?  Did he have to come
down and do some eye surgery?  Its called the miracle power
of the Holy Spirit.

> How does the Holy Ghost comming upon a female (no pun intended)
> and the power of the Highest overshadowing the same female make
> that female pregnant?

It doesnt, but then it doesnt say the LDS flesh and bones man
was their either.  I have some LDS qoutes on the subject you
mention, and they are borderline blasphemous -- in the sense
of blashpheming the Holy Spirit.  They said that if the
Holy Spirit could conceive, it would be dangerous to baptise
females because they may all begin getting pregnant.

> What do "come upon thee" and "overshadow thee" have to do with
> conception and becoming pregnant in these passages?

What do they have to do with the abscense of the LDS flesh and
bones man?  All it says is the Holy Spirit is present, and Mary
pregnant.

> What "means" could God have used to bring about the conception of
> Christ, that would be explained by the passages above?

It was supposed to be a miracle in the sense of a miraculous
conception.  What "means" could God have used to cause the lame
to walk?

Its good to hear from you again, and see you havent gone ahteist
on us. :)  I would like to point out that it was not so long
ago you adamantly denied this as being nothing more than speculation
by a few people.  I am curious why you are now pursuing it in the
sense of trying to make me disprove something you once pooh-pooh'ed
as being nonsense.?

Mark
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