HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sward+@CMU.EDU (David Reeve Sward)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Court Rulings Hierarchy
Date: 14 Dec 92 08:58:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.sf=BZAG00WBL83D3QA
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.news.groups: 14-Dec-92 Re: Court Rulings Hierarchy
by J.D. Baldwin@csservera.s 
> >I believe I did but I shall reiterate.  UUNET is dropping the service
> >and I would like to get this going before they do so there is not an
> >interruption of service.  Note that not everyone has FTP access.  In
> >fact, most of the people that we get mail from have no network connection
>                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >at all.  So setting up regional FTP servers will not serve these people.
>  ^^^^^^
>  
> OK, you've got me confused.  How is a newsgroup, regardless of the
> name, the hierarchy or the distribution issues, going to help people
> with no e-mail, no ftp and "no network connection at all"?  I mean,
> I'd love to include absolutely *everybody* in the wonderful USENET
> world, too, but this seems a touch impractical.

Perhaps it should have read "no _direct_ network connection at all." 
That is, most people have news and email, but don't have telnet, ftp,
etc.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: STRAW VOTE ON NAME FOR NATIVE AMERICANS NEWSGROUP
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 13 Dec 92 12:27:32 GMT

jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF) writes:

>I dunno.  Might as well, if you've got the space.  I hope people wouldn't
>get their noses significantly out of joint if after 55 people voted in a
>straw poll and 23 supported one name and 10 another and 8 another and 7
>another and you said "well, the one that got 23 seems to be most
>popular"... the people who voted for the group that got 7 might say "hey,
>wait, let's see the votes..." but I'd hope they'd have more of a life than
>that.

>While I'm posting to this subject, let me ask the news.groups readership
>at large: is anyone actually opposed to a newsgroup for indigenous
>Americans?  As far as I can tell, the current minisquabbling seems to be
>going on over the name, but not the concept as a whole.  I'd hate to see a
>group with no opposition go down because people got upset about not liking
>the name when, as far as I can see, there is no name that's going to
>please everyone...

Hello JFK,

I've received lots of mail about the idea of a StrawVote. I want
to through out my idea of a Straw Vote to see if there are any
objections.

First and foremost, I believe a straw-vote will give us an idea
of that unstated thing which we are after: namely, a concensus.  
ONce we get a general idea of the concensus, then we can decide
what we want to do about it, perhaps run a 2nd RFD.  I will also
need to post a revised version of the charter after the straw
vote to reflect the change.

This concensus will not please everyone certainly, but it is designed
to please the majority, which is the best we can hope for in this
forum. 

If anyone has anything they'd like to suggest about my idea of 
the Straw Poll, please post or e-mail me.

Thanks,

Mike

idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
Xref: sparky news.groups:24386 alt.native:1423
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: User's Guide to the Changing USENET
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:28:51 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire):
>In article <2B2756A2.6E3C@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>According to ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk:
>>>If you can't attack the argument, attack the newsreading software.
>>
>>Now tell me, is this attitude consistent with your stated desire to
>>see everyone well-informed?
>
>Strange that the smilie in the article was replaced by a period in the
>quote.  I guess you were so sure Ross-c was serious that you removed
>the "error."

Yes.  His previous articles make clear that he takes no responsibility
for the news software he chooses to use.  Therefore, when he "jokes"
about attacking the news software, he's not kidding: he really thinks
that criticism of _him_ is inappropriate, when (as he thinks) anyone
can see that it's his software that's at fault.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:05:09 GMT

swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen) writes:
>Sure, we could all ignore you, and then what chance would you have of 'fixing'
>what you percieve as a problem?  How are you going to get anything changed if
>nobody is listening?

Those who do listen (in spite of the yelling) is who my target audience IS.

I yelled originally because it got more attention than saying something soft 
and warm. Now it produces a different effect.

If people are now complaining about my yelling by yelling at me, what does
that tell you? 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Two men came before Nasrudin. The first man said, "This man bit my ear -- I 
demand compensation."  The other said, "He bit it himself."  Nasrudin withdrew 
to his chambers, and spent an hour trying to bite his own ear.  He succeeded
only in falling over and bruising his forehead. Returning, Nasrudin said, 
"Examine the man whose ear was bitten. If his forehead is bruised, the case is 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Usenet: Democracy? (was: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!)
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:56:17 GMT

In article <631.9212091049@csparc12.scs.leeds.ac.uk> ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk writes:

   The ability to vote is not sufficently publicised.  The voting
   process is not sufficiently clear. It isn't working and it isn't
   democracy.

Exactly.  It isn't democracy.

We, the news admins, demand that a popularity contest be conducted
before we will consider a petition for a new group.  Any proposal
unpopular among us is doomed even if the vote is overwhelmingly
successful.

As far as the vote not getting out or the process being unclear, I
support efforts to make improvements in this area because I assume a
more effective popularity contest will waste less of my time and fewer
resources.

A high voter turnout would waste more, not fewer, resources.  But I do
not expect this to happen if the process is improved.  Low voter
turnout is due primarily to apathy, not poor process.

There is only one reason that the new group creation process uses a
popularity contest to filter frivolous proposals:  We haven't yet
discovered a simpler process which doesn't.  I would be glad to see a
new group creation process which

  -  requires less process-related news and mail traffic to/from my
     site;

  -  costs me fewer hours of process-related time;

  -  satisfies my customers at least as well.

I don't think that doing away with the vote would accomplish these
goals.  However, I do not oppose the idea in principle.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Xref: sparky news.groups:24174 talk.politics.misc:64018 soc.motss:52118
From: allan@hico2.westmark.com (Allan Kugel)
Newsgroups: news.groups,talk.politics.misc,soc.motss
Subject: new newsgroup proposal:talk.politics.motss
Summary: This traffic needs a REAL home.
Keywords: politics, gay, motss, traffic, intention
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:21:18 GMT
Reply-To: allan@hico2.westmark.com
Organization: High Country Software
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]


Based on the tremendous amount of traffic in talk.politics.misc
AND many other groups, [which started with one way-too-widely
crossposted article following the november elections],
I'd like to suggest the creation of one or more of the following groups:

 soc.motss.politics
 talk.politics.motss
 alt.activism.motss
  
Somehow, the discussions generated don't seem quite right for any of the
existing newsgroups, at least as I view it.

I have some thoughts about why certain topics get so out-of-hand,
relating to who wants to use what newsgroups for what kind of discussion,
and differing views on what certain newsgroups should be for,
and the general issue of who pays for the existence costs of usenet. 
But I don't have time for that now, and I'd expect that most people
aware of those issues could figure most of them out anyway.

Anyway, I'm suggesting that this be discussed.  I don't have the time
to really coordinate anything right now, but if it's a popular enough
idea, then I'm sure somebody will volunteer.

	Allan Kugel
	allan@hico2.westmark.com
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: barr@pop.psu.edu (David Barr)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native.american
Organization: Penn State Population Research Institute
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 02:16:46 GMT

In article <Bz6BFE.J6y@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>Common usage of the term "Native American," as opposed to "American
>Native," shouldn't have anything to do with it at all.  In fact,
>"soc.culture.native.american" seems to me more damaging a name because
>it's misleading about the structure of the Usenet namespace, in which
>dots seperate levels of generality and not just words (cf.
>alt.sexual.abuse.recovery).

Depends on how you think the heirarchy will expand, e.g.:

soc.culture.native.american
soc.culture.native.australian
soc.culture.native.hawaiian

or

soc.culture.american.native
soc.culture.american.yuppie
soc.culture.american.black
soc.culture.american.hispanic

The latter one seems more useful, IMHO, but the former seems plausable
too.  (The key being if American culture is worth raving about in more
than one newsgroup.  Personally I find it hard to believe.  :-) )

--Dave
-- 
System Administrator, Population Research Institute    barr@pop.psu.edu
End of article 2565 (of 2565)--what next? [npq]
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: IGNORE DAVE HAYES!
Date: 14 Dec 92 17:18:14 GMT
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.

In article <2B2C9BBD.2D47@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF):
>>If everyone stopped replying to his posts, what would he reply to?
>
>Words of wisdom.
>
>To ignore Dave takes self-control; but the rewards are worth it.

Ignoring people in the hope that they'll stop does not always work.

You may want to spend a few minutes in soc.culture.{greek turkish
europe soviet jewish}, soc.history, talk.politics.{soviet mideast},
etc for details.

Spiros
-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       (317) 451-0815
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 02:12:42 GMT
Organization: Usenet Power Elite: Crush-The-Innocent-Newbies Strike Team

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:

>> Uncalled for? 
>
> Yes, uncalled-for.  You seem to have difficulty with the concept of
> arguing the idea, not attacking the person. 

To do that one has to have an idea to argue; your arguments for the
removal of alt.folklore.computers are so filmy and tenuous that arguing
them is like dissecting mice with a chainsaw.  And yet you persist in
advancing them . . . which, in my opinion, makes attacking you for
advancing them a perfectly honorable pasttime.  When a dog messes on
the carpet, you blame the dog, not the mess.

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: weinss@warren1a.its.rpi.edu (Stephen Andrew Weinstein)
Subject: Re: news group about cancer
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 05:46:34 GMT

chae@mpd.tandem.com (Chae Yon) writes:
        Is there any news group about cancer or tumor??
        I have some questions about cancer and need helps.
        I thought I saw sci.med.cancer or something like that.
        Thank you in advance.
        Please email me (chae@devnull) or post it.
        -Chae

Any e-mail I send to chae@devnull gets returned to me by the system, 
which claims there is no sight devnull.

My answer:
How about alt.support.cancer?
I had my computer do a search for all groups containing either "cancer"
or "tumor" and that was all that came up.
The groups in the sci.med hierarchy (sp?) are:
sci.med
sci.med.aids
sci.med.nutrition
sci.med.occupational
sci.med.physics
In other words, if your site carries alt groups you can get alt.support.cancer.
Otherwise, you can scan sci.med and hope you get lucky.
There is no sci.med.cancer.
You could purpose it though.

Stephen Weinstein
weinss@rpi.edu
I am leaving for the holidays tomorrow afternoon and have no e-mail or usenet
access from my family home.  Any reply will probably not be read until mid-Jan.

Pick your favorite sig:
If more college students voted (and could afford lobbyists),
        there'd be more financial aid.           
It's not whether your answers are right or wrong; 
        it's who grades your paper that determines the grade.
2+2=4
At R.P.I., we can build a plane in a few months but there are locks, tiolets,
        light bulbs, and other simple things that take years to fix.
I am about to leave for holiday break.  I will be away from the net
        and unable to receive E-mail until about Jan 10.
Happy New Year and misc other holidays.
        (This is how to avoid offending people by mentioning
                holidays of religions they dislike!)
The opinions expressed are not those of the company that employs me because:
        1. I am not a company employee.
        2. Companies don't have opinions, any more than a computer can hate me.
35 days left until President Clinton.
Looking at my watch, I see it's after midnight.  Make that 34 days!
From: swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 17 Dec 92 19:38:59 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Dec14.215351.12595@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
|> >No; it implies that you should be careful about where, how, and how much to
|> >complain.
|> 
|> On Usenet? Hardly.

Yes, on Usenet.  You always get more flies with honey than vinegar.
A gentle suggestion that something was wrong, and a request for possible
solutions might well have gotten a *lot* further than your "I'm pissed,
so I'm going to insult everyone, and then take my ball an go home" attitude.

And, given that the net is a volunteer operation, if you want better documentation,
write it yourself.

|> >Swatting a housefly with a Buick may kill the fly, but it's hard on
|> >the Buick, too. 
|> 
|> We aren't talking about physical damage here. We are talking about complaints.
|> If people can't ignore someone they call a bozo, then that's their problem.

In a tech. discussion group/mailing list trying to sort through tons of shit
to find the real technical discussion is not easy. Thus it *is* a form of
damage.

|> I'm not hurting anyone. Sorry. Unless people can be hurt by my words, in
|> which case they are giving me a LOT of power.

You are swamping all reasonable discussion with your shouting.
Sure, we could all ignore you, and then what chance would you have of 'fixing'
what you percieve as a problem?  How are you going to get anything changed if
nobody is listening?

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lunatic@netcom.com (Lunatic Johnathan Bruce E'Sex)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.cyber
Organization: Netcom; Renegade User
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:49:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec8.133125.26834@ms.uky.edu> kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron) writes:
>Let me also point out that rec.games.mecha was *just* created.  Are you
>going to run a vote on moving that too?
 

    |\|ever.  I specifically created rec.games.mecha at the rec.games
 level of the hierarchy because it is a cross-genre group, covering
 board games, fantasy role-play, computer games, and any/everything
 else that fits.  The majority of the posts there (50%-75%) are
 actually board game related and would be very much out of place under
 the rec.games.frp hierarchy.

 BTW, rec.games.mecha has already been incredibly successful, with
 almost 400 posts in it over a period of less than a week since it
 was created.  The transition was very smooth -- mecha-related posts
 on the other rec.games groups virtually disappeared once
 rec.games.mecha was created.  As an example, only a SINGLE mecha-
 related post has been seen on rec.games.board since the creation of
 rec.games.mecha.
 
 It's been a true model of newsgroup creation, and I'm proud to have
 been the author of it.  (:

-- 
   _______________________________________________________
  /         -= Lunatic Johnathan Bruce E'Sex     (:      /
 /  lunatic@netcom.com  GEnie: LUNATIC  CI$: 76170,672  /
/______________________________________________________/
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Keywords: native, straw vote, concensus
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 17 Dec 92 22:27:11 GMT

jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) writes:

>In article <idoy.724520011@crux1.cit.cornell.edu> idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson) writes:
>>ETHICAL QUESTION REGARDING STRAW VOTES
>>
>>I have been chomping at the bit to campaign amongst all
>>my net friends to vote for the name of the newsgroup
>>that I like, but I am told that campaigning for these
>>votes is maybe unethical.

>The guidelines do not apply to a straw vote.  Campaign away.


Hello Jan,

Thanks for the green light, but I have decided to refrain
from campaigning because I would actually like to see, as
Karleen wisely stated, the actually sentiment among the 
current persons deciding the fate of this newsgroup.  Once
we have an accurate picture of what USENET users think 
about the name, then we have something substantial to
talk about.

Furthermore, this accurate reflection of legitimate USENET
users will provide us with (perhaps) a concensus for going
ahead with a second RFD in early January, when Dave 
Lawrence returns.

I have to say that I am excited about the prospect of reaching
a general concensus about the name so we can go ahead with
the formation of this newsgroup.

Happy Holidays,

Mike

==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel K. Furr)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:31:28 GMT
Organization: Escape from Blacksburg, VA

ib.tmc.edu>
Organization: Escape from Blacksburg, VA

In article <8145@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>In article <BzCIKI.751@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel K
. Furr) writes:
>>When you compare the incredible illogic of Brader's hijacking proposal with th
e
>>simple reality that five minutes filling out a registration form at any of
>>several free newsreading sites would have taken, you really wonder why he went

>>to all this bother.
>
>I've already shot this one down, but Joel keeps coming back to it...the facts
>don't support his case. It's simply not as easy as he makes it out to be;
>either there are expensive or difficult registration requirements, severe
>access limits, or both.

Sorry, Jay, but THE NET DIDN'T BUY THAT ARGUMENT.  Are you with me, Jay?  Your
stubborn, idiotic, Neanderthalistic argument that the entire net should be
forced to move alt.folklore.computers into a comp. group just so YOU could read
it without having to register at another site WENT DOWN IN FLAMES.

You with me?  YOUR SIDE LOST.  YOUR ARGUMENTS LOST.  Are you getting this?

So if you want to read alt.folklore.computers, you can either do it at another
site, which will take five minutes to arrange (as many, many people have
demonstrated during this flamewar), or you can sit in your sandbox and draw
messages in the sand.  Have fun!

Bye, Jay.

Bye!
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF)
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 21:49:44 GMT

My apologies.  I received the email below from Jay Maynard after politely
asking him to stop baiting Dave Hayes and perpetuating the flamewar, and
thought Jay's response to my request (shown below) sufficiently idiotic
and stupid that hey, why be polite back?  So I forwarded the email from my
kludgy old general mail account to USENET via a mail-to-news gateway and it
stripped me off it and put Jay as author of the entire message, as opposed
to author of the forwarded text.  My apologies as far as _that_ is
concerned... nonetheless, I think the text you'll see below the line marked
-Original message- demonstrates for once and for all that:

1) Jay is an idiot
2) Jay doesn't give a hoot about any of the things he debates about, such
   as efficient functioning of groups or rights of individuals or ANY of
   that... he's just here to babble endlessly and sate his ego's desire for
   notoriety.

In article <9212141906.AA08716@deepthought.cs.utexas.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:

(actually, _I_ write:)
>Just a little rudely forwarded email from Jay Maynard on the subject of
>"jay, stop encouraging Dave Hayes"...
>

and here's Jay's response to my polite request to stop baiting Dave:

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>You know, my first instinct when i saw your original request to me was to tell
>you to go straight to hell.
>
>Instead, I think I'll continue rebutting Dave Hayes, point by point, just to
>piss you off.
>
>You reap what you sow...
>--
>Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
>  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button

Sigh.


Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Followup-To: news.groups,alt.native
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 05:38:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.173313.11161@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@Dartmouth.Edu writes:
>    "Many of these people" do not have UseNet access at their sites, and
>therefore all of their votes are invalid. If you do not read the Net
>then you do not get to decide what happens to the groups that comprise
>the Net.

These statements are contrary to fact, not to mention Guidelines.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Xref: sparky news.groups:24524 alt.religion.kibology:5434 alt.politics.kibo:293