HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Date: 14 Dec 1992 12:49:23 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com


Another good series: The Prydain Chronicles.  The books are (if memory
serves correctly) "The Book of Three", "The Black Cauldron", "The
Castle of Lyr", "Taran Wanderer", and another one which has a name that
escapes me.  They would fall under the "young adult" category, but they
are excellent.  The books are basically a coming-of-age saga about the
main character (an assistant pig-keeper named Taran).  Look for them in
the young adult's section of your bookstore or library, and read them with
great enjoyment.

They don't have the depth of history of Tolkien's works (what does?), but
the characters are wonderful, the stories enjoyable, and the setting 
pretty good.
From: mapmef@gdr.bath.ac.uk (M E Fletcher)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The movie...
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:49:37 GMT
Organization: School of Mathematics, University of Bath, UK

I can't believe that a Hollywood version of LOTR would be worth watching. 
The very first thing they'd do would be hire a bunch of writers to
trim the plot down to 2-2.5 hours, instead of the 6-8 hours I think
you would need. The second thing would be to remove most of the dialogue
and songs unless they were directly applicable to the plot. The third
and worst thing they'd do would be to miscast some big names in the
wrong roles and rewrite the roles to suit them. I can already imagine
the nightmare of Tom Cruise as Frodo, on condition that his wife plays
Galadriel or Eowyn, Dustin Hoffman spending a few months living in a dark cave
to prepare for the part of Gollum, Sean Connery "mastering" another accent 
to play Aragorn, Bob Hoskens as Gimli etc etc. 

Matt
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 05:10:20 GMT

aleneis@jarthur.claremont.edu (Tony Leneis) writes:
>Jeff Liss writes:
>>Also, what does Gandalf mean when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a
>> servant of the Secret Fire"?

>Well, I would guess that he either was referring to the fact that he wears
>Narya the Great (elven ring of fire), or that he's saying that he is a
>servent of Eru and the Vala.  Since the rings were always hidden and secret, I
>would tend to lean towards the latter.  I seem to recall that Eru used the
>secret fire to make the Vala, Maiar, Elves, etc.  (I'd losely interpret it
>Tony

Question:  Gandalf said "The evil fire will avail you not", and afterwards
at Fangorn (with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas) he said "I fell, for a long
time, we fought, and I was burned".  I take it Gandalf was bluffing about
"the dark fire will avail you not", since the balrog somehow managed to
burn him even though he had all this enchantment and wizardly knowledge
of fire (and the Third Ring)?  Otherwise it doesn't make sense.  He
shouldn't have been burned.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:24:55 GMT

BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com writes:
>Besides the 5 chief wizards, is any mention ever made of the "minor" ones?
>Were they Maiar as well?
>
>Note: Where it is described when the wizards appear it says something like
>"...of their chiefs there were 5..."  Anyone have that quote handy?
>
>- Bill Seurer  

_Unfinished Tales_ specifically says that "Of this Order, the number is
unknown; but of those that came to the north of Middle-earth, ... ,
the chiefs were five."  This says that there are more wizards out there
than just the five.  However, there were five princple wizards only.  The
rest seem to be of lesser stature and are never named.  

The above is portion I wrote about ~200 posts ago.  Nowhere to my 
knowledge is there any mention of the lesser wizards and of what race
they were.  It seems logical to assume that they were maiar as well, but
then again, elves to a certain extent were magical as was one shapeshifting
man/bear named Beorn.  Perhaps then Glorfindel was one of the wizards since
he was reincarnated and returned to ME.  Perhaps then Beorn was one as well,
though he obviously didn't come from the West as did the rest.  Then there is
this matter of the Mouth before the Black Gate that doesn't know his name.
Is he a lesser wizard in the employment of Sauron now?  Who knows.  All this
is nothing more than speculation on my part as to who the lesser wizards are.

Thorongil


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bjornts@ii.uib.no (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Bergen
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 18:33:06 GMT

In article <KETIL.92Dec14162659@spurv.ii.uib.no>, ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde) writes:

|> Has it struck any of you that the balrog might not be terribly
|> intelligent?  I mean, powerful and dangerous, but it could be that it
|> isn't just smart enough to rule a large kingdom, and only usable to
|> Morgoth as a powerful tool to be kept on a short leash.

No, not really. A Balrog is a Maia, in other words what must be referred
to as a god. That does not necessarily mean that he is intelligent, but it
makes it quite probable. 

|> I don't remember that balrogs have ever been in command of anything,
|> there were of course "Gothmog, captain of balrogs" if I remember
|> correctly, but I can't remember that he actually commanded a lot.

Gothmog did command forces in the fourth battle. It is, to my memory,
clearly stated that he controlled the forces waiting to attact Finrod,
Turgon and their people.

|> The balrog stays put in moria, even though it's relatively safe
|> outside to join sauron or whatever.

It isn't very safe outside. You must remember that this Balrog is not
necessarily a servant of Sauron, indeed probably isn't. He used to be
a servant of Morgoth, but that is something quite different. In fact,
probability has it that if he went out from Moria, he would be ensnared
by Sauron, and forced to serve under him. This might be the very reason
why he stays inside Moria.

|> The balrog facing gandalf didn't seem at all sure of itself when
|> Gandalf mumbled something about being a 'servant of the dark fire' or
|> some such.

I wouldn't be to sure of myself if I was facing Gandalf as an enemy
either. You have to remember that Gandalf to was a Maia, giving him
powers at least equal to the Balrog from the start of. And they very
early felt each other on the teeth with their magic, something that
would add to the unsecurity of the Balrog!

|> Sauron wasn't a balrog, was he?  If not, what exactly was he?

What can be drawn out of the text in Silmarillion, is that Sauron
is a Maia, just like that the balrogs. If he isn't, he is of a race
not described by Tolkien. He had been drawn to Morgoth from the very
beginning, which more or less excludes that he can be an elf or 
a man. (Apart from the fact that his powers far surpasses those of
any man or elf.) And he is not a Valar, since it is clearly 
specified that there were only 13 of those. In other words, he is 
either a Maia, or Eru himlself! :-)

|>  = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =

-- 
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    bjornts@ii.uib.no              - Marvin
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: 17 Dec 1992 12:54:53 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

As another example of a book made into multiple movies, consider
_The_Three_Musketeers_.  In the early 1970's version with
Michael York as d'Artagnan the book proved to be too long for one
movie.  So they did two movies.  The story from the book is split
into the movies "The Three Musketeers" and "The Four Musketeers."
They could probably do something similar with LOTR.

However, the treatment was particularly appropriate with the 
Musketeers as the book had a big different in tone and plot between
the first half and the second.  Each of the movies stand alone fairly
well.  I can't see that happening with LOTR: the early movies would
have to end with an explicit "To Be Continued."
From: renzoni@acsu.buffalo.edu (Marc A Renzoni)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Hobbit
Date: 12 Dec 92 04:44:02 GMT
Organization: UB

My copy of the Hobbit has one of the great Eagles on the front of it 
and what i think is Bilbo.  It's a gold cover, a real nice one..

Ren
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:49:03 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu:
>
>For someone who has finished LofR and is searching hungrily for more of the
>same genre, can anyone recommend some more titles?
>
>I've seen a few titles mentioned here already:
>	1) Terry Brooks' "Shannara", which most people seem to regard as a
>	   thinly-veiled rip-off of LotR;
>	2) Stephen Donaldson's "The Cronicles of Thomas Covenant", of which
>	   I've read either extremely positive or extremely negative reports;
>	3) Patricia McKillip's "RiddleMaster" trilogy.
>
>Granted, I'm probably pining away for more of JRRT and everything else will
>only feel like pale imitations, but I'm willing to give it a shot.  Please send
>me your suggestions along with your comments, and I'll summarize.  Thank you.


Let me start off by saying that there's nothing else like TLOTR, and quite
probably never will be.  If you give up *now* on looking for such a thing,
you'll be less disappointed in the long run.  :-)

Now, having said that...

The only other works of fantasy that seem (to me) to achieve anything like
the level of TLOTR are:

	1. The Earthsea stories of Ursula LeGuin.  These include three
	   short "children's" novels (don't believe it), and numerous stories
	   that appear scattered in her various short-story collections (e.g.
	   "The Compass Rose", "The Wind's Twelve Quarters", "Orsinian Tales")

	2. The "Lyonesse" trilogy of Jack Vance.  Couldn't be more different
	   in tone, style, characterization, dialogue, or theme (what's left?),
	   but the writing is exceptional, the characters memorable, and the
	   plot engrossing.

	3. "Watership Down", by Richard Adams.  Yes, it's about rabbits, but
	   it's one of the few books that evokes the same emotional responses
	   in me that TLOTR does.  Avoid Adams's other books.

In the realm of science fiction, Orson Scott Card's "Ender" trilogy ("Ender's
Game", "Speaker for the Dead", "Xenocide") get at me the same way.

I'm not familiar with (say) George MacDonald's work, so someone else will
have to talk about those...

-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao Akella)
Subject: Re: Eowyn 
Reply-To: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu
Organization: Colon Cancer Control Study, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:59:35 GMT



In article <1992Dec16.212210.24932@leland.Stanford.EDU>, jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
> 
> I don't recall seeing a charter saying that this
> newsgroup is only for saying things that make us feel warm and happy about
> Tolkien.

Note: This newsgroup was created with neither charter nor discussion in the
config and related newsgroups.  There was some grumbling about that in the
config newsgroup, and some sysadmins said they would not honour the creation of
a.f.t. at their sites because it didn't go through the recommended guidelines
for creation of newsgroups.  Unfortunately for their users, the loss is theirs.

So as far as I'm concerned, I can discuss anything I want on this newsgroup. 
Of course, if I don't want to end up in the kill files of every person who
obviously likes the same kinds of books that I do, then I had better be a good
neighbour.  But the technical point is in my favour.

So, who wants to start a thread on this newsgroup about the influence of rubber
chickens on post-modern impressionism? :-)

-- Rao Akella    <rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu, rao%moose@umnacvx.bitnet>

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: s_perera@iastate.edu (Sunil M Perera)
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:43:01 GMT

In article <BzBLoK.9Cn@unix.amherst.edu> djweisbe@unix.amherst.edu (David Weisberger) writes:
>Richard Vance (urmvance@memstvx1.memst.edu) wrote:
>: In article <539@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>: > And the kicker...
>: > 
>: > Frodo:		Linda Hunt.  No, really.  If she can do Billy Kwan in
>: > 		"Year of Living Dangerously", she can do Frodo.  The problem
>: > 		is finding *another* dozen or so hobbits...
>: 
>:Well, what all the little folks in _Willow_? They could be adapted fairly
>:easily to the part. I've always thought they were the closest thing to hobbits
>:in recent movie history.
>
>So you noticed that too?  I thought _Willow_ was the most amazing, blatant,
>brazen rip-off of Tolkien and Star Wars.
>
>--
>Davebo                    "Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard.
>                           I just read the Daily News and swear by every word."
>djweisbe@unix.amherst.edu

      ....Ron Howard and GEORGE LUCAS had something to do with producing n
directing the film....

the little tan man

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Aragorn
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:57:10 GMT

In article <BzH5xt.2LA@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Gaelmeth) writes:
>Also, why in Middle-Earth was Aragorn SO against
>going through Khazad dum in _The Fellowship_?
>Did he have some idea of what was to come?  Or did
>he AND Gandalf have a clue?  I would not think the
>latter COULD be the case - I do not believe Gandalf
>would have voluntarily gone into Moria knowing
>that the Balrog would be there to challenge him.
>But, Aragorn was obviously troubled about the place.
>Maybe it was just its recent history?  Lead me to
>the answer.  :)

Aragorn, like Gandalf, had been through Moria on his own. He knew
that it was an evil place, filled with Orcs, Trolls, and worse.
He probably assumed that Moria, like everything else, had gotten
worse in recent years. I think that alone would be enough to
explain his reticence.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    
                "I know that, in America and under capitalism,
                 I am the freest woman in history."
                                --- Camille Paglia
From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: 17 Dec 92 00:42:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec16.205604.23902@leland.Stanford.EDU>, jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes...
>In article <BzD3EK.IpJ@unix.amherst.edu> djweisbe@unix.amherst.edu (David Weisberger) writes:
>>
>>James Alexander Chokey (jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>>: Instead, she decides that she'd be
>>: quite content simply to do what all the other women in Middle-earth do--
>>: get married, stay at home, and take care of domestic affairs.  By having
>>: Eowyn, the only character who mounts a challenge to the ideology of female
>>: domesticity in LOTR, renounce that challenge and happily accept the status
>>: of a married stay-at-home, Tolkien is effectively saying that her initial 
>>: discontent with that status was a youthful mistake.


	Remember that Sam also settled down to comfortable home life.
I'll bet many characters settled down.  Consider those that left to
the West.  They probably settled down too in their own way.


Mark
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Foriegn Translations of LOTR
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:09:44 GMT
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Distribution: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: NASA/GSFC

In article <1992Dec13.042519.6038@athena.mit.edu>, zelevin@athena.mit.edu
(Vladimir V Zelevinsky) wrote:
> 
> Just couple of words regarding the Russian translation
> (at least the fullest one, there were a lot of abridged
> ones going around on the floppy disks).
> 
> I REALLY don't like it.  And the part which completely
> spoils it is the translation of the names - not the translation
> itself, to be exact, but how they have done it.
> The names in the Shire are just plain stupid (for example,
> Shire = 'Hobbitania'); but the others are just horrible.
> I think it was just a plain error to use a language of the
> ancient Russian legends to translate The Lord of the Rings.
> 
> I suppose the way to translate IN ANY LANGUAGE is to try to use
> the words of the English origin.
> 
> --
> Vladimir.
> zelevin@athena.mit.edu

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but I do know that there
are several Russian translations floating about. Which are you
referring to? Have you tried the one by Maria Zemankova, which I
understand is very good?

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: kelsey@jupiter.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Mike Kelsey)
Subject: Re: The Disclaimer
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:33:57 GMT

In article <MVOORHIS.92Dec12075252@granite.WPI.EDU>, mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec12.011157.14583@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
|> >  No.  The Houghton-Mifflin editions are still widely available in
|> > the U.S. They're a bit more expensive, to be sure--  but they are sturdier
|> > and they're out there.
|> 
|> I think H-M only does hardcover editions of Prof. Tolkien's works.  I don't
|> think I've ever seen a paperback, other than a large format trade-paperback
|> format, from H-M.
|> 
|> Does H-M `sub-contract' out to Ballantine when they decide to send a book
|> into paperback?  The lost-tales 1 and 2 are now in ballantine paperbacks.
|> 
|> 	Mike.

My understanding is that Ballantine is the label for (one of?) H-M's paperback
divisions.  The _Book_of_Lost_Tales_, Volumes 1 and 2, and
_The_Lays_of_Beleriand_, all comprising the first three volumes of the History
of Middle Earth series, are the _only_ ones that will be out in paperback.  I
called H-M directly to ask about this; volumes 4-9 will be published in
hardcover only.  Apparently they just don't sell well enough to warrant both
forms :-(
						-- Mike Kelsey
-- 
[  My opinions are not endorsed by SLAC, Caltech, or the US government  ]
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.  Attack ships on fire off
the shoulder  of Orion.   I've watched  C-beams glitter in  the darkness
near the Tannhauser Gate.  All these memories will be lost in time, like
tears in the rain."  -- Roy Batty
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:13:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.152204.14652@b11.b11.ingr.com> craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson) writes:
>jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>
[...]
>
>[...]
> It might actually be
>>kind of interesting to see how closely the two themes might be related--
>>to examine the degree to which technology and craft are "gendered" in either
>>a masculine or feminine way in LOTR.  I don't know how far one could go with
>>it but certainly could be interesting to find out . . .
>
>I think you'd run up against the lack of "normal" female characters in
>LOTR. They are there by exception, mostly, or as scenery. Mrs. Maggot
>is "a Queen among farmer's wives", for example, and all she does in
>the story is serve a jug of beer, a big country dinner for fourteen,
>and give Frodo some leftover 'shrooms. I'd be willing to help keep an
>eye out for references to women and craft, though, just in case any
>exceptions might prove any rules ...
>
>Not only are the women in the deep background, but a lot of the major
>male characters are conveniently bachelors. But again, this is absolutely

This is something I find a little irritating--hobbits are supposed to
be extremely family centered, but the four hobbits on the expedition
never seem to think about their relatives.

>typical of heroic legend and epic. The major female characters in Homer
>come off much worse by comparison: Helen's a tramp, Cassandra's crazy,
>Circe turns men into pigs (I hear a snicker in the background), and
>only when Odysseus is nearing home does he encounter the likes of
>Nausicca and of course Penelope. Oh, and don't forget Klytaemnestra
>(shudder).
>
Nancy Lebovitz
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mbs@zycor.lgc.com (Matt Shostak)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: Landmark/Zycor   Austin, Texas
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:59:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.015308.15707@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>In article <Bz4BrA.7C6@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> hasch@chem.queensu.ca (Hartmut Schmider) writes:
>>Klaus Ole Kristiansen writes (quoting a Tolkien letter):




[wordy discussion deleted]




>
>	I'm not saying that Tolkien was a "racist" in the modern sense
>of the word, and I'm not saying that he set out to write a story which
>emphasized racial difference and the superiority of some races over others.
>And I certainly am not trying to "blame" him or disparage his works because
>they don't conform to my political sensibilities.  But, I do think there is 
>a great deal of concern about race in LOTR and that the tale clearly portrays 
>some races as being superior to others.  I think that's worth reflecting 
>upon and worth discussing.  Why is it in there?  Is he just reflecting the
>concerns and attitudes of his time and culture, or is there something more
>to it than that?  

Neither.

>
>
>	Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>


It's a work of fantasy, Jim.



-- 
Matthew B. Shostak              Landmark/Zycor
mbs@zycor.lgc.com               (512) 292-2357
"So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions.
 Well, we shall see." -- Cardinal Ximinez