HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcgregor@caddac1.waterloo.edu (Joel McGregor)
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Organization: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms
Distribution: can
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 21:23:08 GMT

In article <702934125.4680@myrias.ab.ca> dcw@myrias.ab.ca (Dan Wilson) writes:
>
>Last point of note.  Of the 50 or so software and hardware developers
>from the original Myrias - 13 of them are now working in the U.S.
>

That brings up another question. There's all kinds of talk about how
Canada needs technology to compete in the 21st century, etc., and therefore
the govt. should give lots of money to the universities, encourage
kids to go into science and technology, and so forth.  But after 
those kids get their expensive technical educations, what do they do
when they graduate and there are no jobs? 

Go to the U.S., which then gets all that government-subsidized education for 
free! Canada may as well have given the money away to winos on the street.
I'm a good example.  I'll graduate (Ph.D.,EE) soon, but nobody in Canada
wanted to hire me.  I start work in the U.S. in June.  I feel kind
of bad for ripping off the Canadian taxpayer, but .... what can you do?
Maybe Canadian schools are already turning out too many engineers.
We're probably not helped by our
     1 low pay
     2 high taxes
     3 lousy weather,
either.

By the way, what ever happened to Myrias?  Did they sell any computers?
--
Joel McGregor               ( mcgregor@caddac1.{uwaterloo.ca,waterloo.edu} )
Xref: sparky can.jobs:148 ont.jobs:122
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Thursday, 9 Apr 1992 00:41:12 EDT
From: Iain D. Holness <HOLNESSI@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: can.jobs,ont.jobs,comp.jobs
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Distribution: can
 <SCHENG.92Apr8162818@bcarh886.bnr.ca>

>  What are companies looking for? People who can program in C; people who
>  can put together applications using API's; people who can integrate
>  Novell networks and other assorted stuff.....

>  Somehow, the educational system is relying on the curriculum of the 80's
>  and Corporate Canada has moved into the 90's.

   That depends on just WHO runs/advises the specific college program.

>>I think the situation for the community college grads could be worse than
>>university grads. The community college grads that I have met/worked
>>with, generally (There are exceptions so no flames please), are not as
>>"well rounded". They will know how to program in specific languages or
>>use specific DBMS packages but lacks the conceptual grasp of issues of
>>high-level S/W design. Once they made a switch in their mindset to S/W
>>design rather than coding or testing, which was painful for some, they
>>usually did OK.

    This depends entirely upon the specific college program which the
  graduates come from.
>>There appears to be a failing in the curriculum of the community
>>college to teach S/W engineering skills rather than, in general, the
>>failing of the students. My profs (the good ones) always told me that
>>they never cared what methodology/language we learned. They just want
>>to make sure we can think.
>>--

>>Spencer Cheng     scheng@BNR.CA  Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
>>613-763-4046

    Some college programs are Management Information Systems programs
  that shoot for mainframe-based applications or database stuff. They
  work on the management side of things more closely than other programs.

    Other college programs are Engineering Technology programs, that cover
  a lot more material than MIS (and are subsequently harder), but with
  a different end focus in mind. SW engineering comes into some of these.

    Employers are finally seeing the difference between the two. Both
  groups have their own place in the corporate and business world, but
  this lumping together that I've seen in other postings just doesn't
  cut it. People don't lump together university students because they
  tend to look at the different degrees and their majors. People tend to
  look blindly at college diplomas and ignore the specific discipline
  studied. There IS a difference in those diplomas, and speaking as one
  who's been in both types of institutions, I am posting this to draw
  attention to the following factoid(CNN)/truism.

     Not all degrees are the same. Not all diplomas are the same.

  The times, they are a changing. Just ask OACETT.
Newsgroups: can.jobs,ont.jobs
From: engb@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Ben Eng)
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Organization: Jet Penguin Lavatories
Distribution: canada
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 04:29:51 GMT

In <870086t.702698756@aucs> 870086t@aucs.acadiau.ca (Shannon Tremblay) writes:
> ...it is suggested that there is currently a shortage of software
>workers that could reach over 14000 by 1995.

>It goes on to suggest that 12000 to 14000 more jobs will be
>available to people in the software industry by 1995.

>If there is a shortage of workers, then WHY can we not get jobs.

There may indeed be a huge shortage of workers in the software
industry, but maybe the industry just doesn't have the cash to
pay these workers right now.  

You could probably get a job in the software industry pretty easily
with your qualifications at this moment in time.  There is a pretty
large demand for software people.  But you have to keep in mind that
most of these ``software'' jobs are pure grunt jobs.  Being a grunt
programmer is not an overly exciting occupation.  It is the
interesting jobs that are hard to find.

>What is the sensus for the rest of the country?  Are the jobs available?
>Am I simply looking in the wrong places?

>Based on the numbers from the article I read, I would expect companies to 
>be breaking down the doors trying to hire graduating students.

Ha ha ha hahaha... I would have to say that only about 10% of my
graduating class have a decent job already lined up at this time.
There are a lot of openings out there that are being pursued, but
employers are picky, the graduates are equally picky, and the
positions are either grunt-like or the employers are advertising
ridiculous requirements for the candidates (ie. a masters degree in
CS or engineering and several years of experience with SQL for some
braindead database programming position).

Ben
-- 
ben@jetpen.gts.org (Ben Eng)  Jet Penguin Lavatories
Bix: jetpen
UofT Engineering Science: engb@ecf.toronto.edu
Home: (416)-979-8761, (416)-979-7885
From: gates@ug.cs.dal.ca (Carrie Gates)
Newsgroups: can.jobs
Subject: CS Jobs in the East
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:34:11 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada



	"Things are cooking in the East."

	Well, in Toronto, maybe there are some jobs, but in the
	EAST (e.g. the Atlantic Provinces) jobs have always been,
	and probably always will be, scarce, no matter what your
	field of study.  My general experience (as a co-op student)
	has been that most of the jobs are in Central Canada, 
	especially Ontario.  This is biased however, as I have 
	never been further west than Kitchener.

	- Carrie Gates
Newsgroups: can.jobs,ont.jobs
From: rmillar@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Roy Millar)
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Organization: Rarely
Distribution: can
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 19:25:42 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.055520.1273@iguana.uucp>
  merce@iguana.uucp (Jim Mercer) writes:

>........................ problem is that there are alot of sweet talkers out
>there who weasel there way in, build them selves into middle management, and
>force themselves on otherwise unsuspecting new programmers.

Perhaps modern building design has been driven by the need to prevent the
defenestration of managers by disgruntled employees ......

Seriously, I think managers have a very tough job. It is a cliche that
most technical people make poor managers, and the converse is nearly
as much of a cliche.

I have griped about them, of course, especially when they made
decisions which were clearly wrong from a technical standpoint (but
technical people can get carried away by some new enthusiasm or other,
with consequences every bit as serious).

I doubt if managers have much more of an idea where things will be in
another 10 years than the rest of us, but they have to try to hire the
right people anyway.

I only wish I knew better how to catch the right manager's attention.

Or what course of action might lead to such a result, for a person of
my age.

-- 
                      | He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Roy Millar            | Without the least vestige of land,
                      | And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
                      | A map they could all understand.  - L. Carroll.
Newsgroups: can.jobs
From: dzubin@skorpio.usask.ca (Thomas Dzubin)
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Organization: Saskatchewan Institute of Applied Science & Technology (SIAST)
Distribution: canada
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 16:51:26 GMT

In article <michels.702710668@menaik> michels@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Michels) writes:
>Things in  edmonton are quite tight.  Calgary is mostly laying off people.
>I'm staying put in my job for a bit.
>
>Andrei Chichak
>c/o the above address


Things in the East seem to be cooking...I keep getting phone calls from
employers in the Toronto area who want to interview/hire me.
trouble is, I want a job West of Saskatchewan...doesn't seem to be
anything around even in Vancouver.

Sorry all of you Easterners...*I DON'T WANT TO MOVE EAST!* 
No offence intended.

Even Calgary or Edmonton would be nice, but as the above poster mentioned,
things are tight.

ps: yes, my current Employer does now I'm looking for jobs!  (Hi Bill!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Dzubin (B.Sc. Comp Sci. 1985...lots of VAX & micro exp...hint hint ;-))
Networks person and general TCP/IP scapegoat
Saskatchewan Institute of Applied Science & Technology (SIAST)  CANADA
(306) 933-5537
dzubin@skorpio.usask.ca  or  dzubint@sask.usask.ca
Newsgroups: can.jobs
From: sherwood@space.ualberta.ca  (Sherwood Botsford)
Subject: Re: CS Jobs in the East
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Distribution: can
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:15:13 GMT

Thomas Dzubin writes
> In article <1992Apr8.193411.4195@cs.dal.ca> gates@ug.cs.dal.ca (Carrie Gates)  
writes:
> >
> >
> >	"Things are cooking in the East."
> >
> >	Well, in Toronto, maybe there are some jobs, but in the
> >	EAST (e.g. the Atlantic Provinces) jobs have always been,
> >	and probably always will be, scarce, no matter what your
> >	field of study.  My general experience (as a co-op student)
> >	has been that most of the jobs are in Central Canada, 
> >	especially Ontario.  This is biased however, as I have 
> >	never been further west than Kitchener.
> >
> >	- Carrie Gates
> 
> 
> OOOPS!  Colour me "flamed"...typical westerner equates "EAST" with "TORONTO"
> 
> ....sorry...

Don't apologise.  East starts at Kenora, Thunderbay if you stretch a bit.


On this whole topic:  My degree is in physics. In computers I'm entirely self  
trained.  My present boss hired me not for what I knew, but for ability to  
learn new skills quickly.  The initial position was as a tech, = gopher, tape  
changer, etc.  Two years later we've picked up 20 odd unix boxes, and I became  
their administrator.

The point:  Take the grunt  job initially, and show your stuff.

--
=> Sherwood Botsford                   sherwood@space.ualberta.ca <= 
=> University of Alberta         Lab Manager, Space Physics Group <=         
=> tel:403 492-3713                             fax: 403 492-4256 <=         
 
Newsgroups: can.jobs
From: clhawth@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Timothy Chesley)
Subject: Software Designers,  Winnipeg
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Distribution: can
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 04:31:56 GMT


                        SOFTWARE DESIGNERS
                        ------------------

  SLM Software is a leading provider of Electronic Funds Transfer and
  Point of Sale software for financial institutions both nationally
  and internationally.  SLM Software has EFT/POS OLTP systems in 4
  continents and 7 countries; serving Banks and Credit Unions around
  the world.


      We are looking for software designers to join our software
      development team.  These talented and highly motivated people
      will work in a UNIX workstation environment using C, X windows
      and RDBMS.  If you want an enjoyable and challenging career 
      using state of the art equipment then we have the job for you.
      We have one job for an entry level software designer and one job
      for a software designer with 1 to 2 years UNIX and C experience.
      The successful candidates will have a degree or diploma in
      Computer Science or a related discipline.



  SLM Software offers a progressive work environment, benefits package,
  and a competitive salary.  Resumes and transcripts can be submitted
  to:
          Douglas Betz
          SLM Software Inc.
          500-1780 Wellington Ave.
          Winnipeg, MB
          R3H 1B3
From: splebrun@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: can.jobs
Subject: MBA/B.Sc looking for Opportunities in Ottawa
Date: 16 Apr 92 12:42:59 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

My fiance is getting a job in Ottawa/Hull. This means that I will be leaving
my current position and be seeking a new job in the same area.

I have an MBA with a double concentration in Finance and MIS as well as a 
B.Sc. in Mathematics and a Diploma in Engineering (completed first 2 core
years) I have worked as a research assistant on a Dec 6000 workstation
using C. For the past year, I have been developing Computer Based Training
products for the Training Technologies Group at Dalhousie University. 

I am looking for a position that has a path that leads to management. I don't
mind starting as a programmer/analyst if there is a way to move up. I am 
looking for either a finance or MIS position.

If you know of any opportunities, please E-mail me and I will send you
a more complete resume.

Thanks

Scott P. LeBrun                    5278 Tobin St. Apt 14
                                   Halifax, Nova Scotia
                                   B3H 1S2

                                   (902) - 422 - 7871
Newsgroups: can.jobs
From: dzubin@skorpio.usask.ca (Thomas Dzubin)
Subject: Re: CS Jobs in the East
Organization: Saskatchewan Institute of Applied Science & Technology (SIAST)
Distribution: can
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 14:35:56 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.193411.4195@cs.dal.ca> gates@ug.cs.dal.ca (Carrie Gates) writes:
>
>
>	"Things are cooking in the East."
>
>	Well, in Toronto, maybe there are some jobs, but in the
>	EAST (e.g. the Atlantic Provinces) jobs have always been,
>	and probably always will be, scarce, no matter what your
>	field of study.  My general experience (as a co-op student)
>	has been that most of the jobs are in Central Canada, 
>	especially Ontario.  This is biased however, as I have 
>	never been further west than Kitchener.
>
>	- Carrie Gates


OOOPS!  Colour me "flamed"...typical westerner equates "EAST" with "TORONTO"

...sorry...

Thomas Dzubin
Networks person and general TCP/IP scapegoat
Saskatchewan Institute of Applied Science & Technology (SIAST)  CANADA
dzubin@skorpio.usask.ca  or  dzubint@sask.usask.ca
From: willson@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (WILLSON  JOHN)
Newsgroups: can.jobs
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Date: 8 Apr 92 18:05:53 GMT
Distribution: canada
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility


        THINGS ARE COOKING IN THE EAST?????

        KEEP GETTING INTERVIEWS/JOB OFFERS?????

        Are we talking about the same country here?

     John.
From: scooper@bfield.uucp (Steve Cooper)
Newsgroups: can.jobs
Subject: Re: COSEP: database expert needed
Date: 30 Mar 92 07:55:55 EST
Organization: Bakers Field BBS

In article <1992Mar28.141249.6976@analsyn.gts.org>, anton@analsyn.gts.org
(Anton J Aylward) writes:
>dave@idc.uucp (dave@idc.uucp) writes:
>: A COSEP position available for a database expert.
>: 
>: .......
>: Knowledge of dBase III/IV and Fox Pro a definite asset.
>: Knowledge of statistic sampling, basic business accounting and IBM mainframe
>: environment especially helpful.
>: 
>: Interested students should apply at the nearest COSEP office and send a resum
>e
>: and a photocopy of your COSEP application form to:
>
>
>I'm not saying that students don't have experience, but isn't the 
>point of these programs to give them the opportunity to gain work experience?
>
>Reminds me of the old hidden agenda:
>
>	Wanted: 21 year old with doctorate and 15 years work experience.
>
>Still, this is the government, what can we expect.
>--
>Anton J Aylward
Students don't need work experience to get this job.  I know dBASE and
business statistics sampling just from my studies, and I don't have any work
experience concerning these things.

-------------
Steve Cooper, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
bfield!scooper@wynnds.xenitec.on.ca
From: scooper@bfield.uucp (Steve Cooper)
Newsgroups: can.jobs
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Date: 13 Apr 92 09:44:30 EST
Organization: Bakers Field BBS

In article <1992Apr10.035801.4001@robohack.UUCP>, woods@robohack.UUCP (Greg A.
Woods) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.050944.737@cs.mcgill.ca> storm@cs.mcgill.ca (Marc WANDSCHNE
>IDER) writes:
>>      It would appear that, in general, universities train CS students
>> to learn about computer science, and not 'how to program in language X'.
>> This is probably the best way of going about things, as learning a 
>> language is really a matter of getting a book and reading it.  Thus,
>> universities can spend their time teaching paradigms and somewhat more
>> important and theoretically useful things.
>
>Hear Hear!  If you want to learn a particular skill, you might go to a
>technical/vocational school or college, or even apprentice.  A
>university is / should be a place of "higher learning."  Unfortunately
>the corporate H.R. departments often don't put a lot of stock in such
>philosophical things and would rather see gobs of practical experience
>on top of all the *paper*.
>
>It's amazing how poorly rounded many university students are today.
>They have poor language skills, and often little theoretical knowledge.
>Maybe that's why H.R. people want to see real-world experience....
>
>Of course it's not right to blame this entirely on the universities,
>since the quality of the "stock" they have to work with is
>embarrassingly low.  At least most provincial education systems aren't
>nearly so bad as their USA counterparts.
>
>On the other hand, it is also quite obvious that many universities are
>feeling the crunch too, and are either attempting to re-orient their
>curriculum's around more practical skills, or are stuck so far in the
>past they don't know which way to turn.
>
>Of course I shouldn't be the one to talk!  :-)
>-- 
>                                               Greg A. Woods
>
>woods@robohack.UUCP woods@Elegant.COM  VE3-TCP UniForum Canada & Elegant Comm.
>(416) 443-1734 [home]  (416) 595-5425 [work]   Toronto, Ontario; CANADA
Well if HR staff want to see practical experience as well as theory, why don't the CS students do as many others have to... after that illustrious degree, go for further training at Community College???  Many people do that even after their MBA's or whatever to gain some practical experience.  Community College isn't a bad word you know...

-------------
Steve Cooper, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
bfield!scooper@wynnds.xenitec.on.ca
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Newsgroups: can.jobs
Subject: Re: Getting into the UNIX world
Keywords: Training UNIX Entry-level
Date: 15 Apr 92 16:10:18 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Carleton University

In <1992Apr15.150547.17041@ccu.umanitoba.ca> agoper@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Arne Grimstrup) writes:

>I keep seeing a fair number of positions for UNIX/C/C++
>programmers come up that I'm interested in, but I don't
>have the background/training for.  I'm taking CS at the
>U of Manitoba and have 2 years experience as a C programmer
>in the MS-DOS environment.

>Can any of you out in netland shed any light on how to
>make the switch/get into the market?

In the case of Unix/C/C++ skills, demand for this type of programmer has
increased significantly in the last few years so the demand probably
exceeds the supply.  This means that some employers will have to hire 
programmers without these skills and have them learn them on the job.

You should also keep in mind that employers are looking for many 
non-technical skills and in many respects these are more important
than specialized technical skills.  Examples would include

   1) Good communication skills (both oral and written).
   2) ability to quickly learn new technical skills.  The reality of 
      this business is that today's hot tool/language is obsolete tomorrow
      so you have to constantly upgrade your technical knowledge.
   3) Hard working and dedicated.
   4) Ability to work as part of a team.
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"My Canada includes Quebec"
Newsgroups: can.jobs
From: cs4gp6al@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Peter Granic)
Subject: Re: Exagerrated numbers
Keywords: jobs figures 
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 19:54:43 GMT

In article <9APR199204562322@trentu.ca> cclark@trentu.ca (J. Chris Clark) writes:
>I don't know about estimates for programmers, but I do know that whoever
>said there was going to be a shortage of teachers was out of their tree.
>It seems everyone in Ontario is breaking their backs to get into Teacher
>Education because there is supposed to be a massive retirement happening.
>
>Why then is one board (ON's second largest) LAYING OFF 400 secondary school
>teachers this coming year?
>
>If anyone knows of a job that doesn't say "Minimum 5 years experience"
>please let me know about it.

Well, Chris, how about this contradiction:  My brother is graduating from
University of Western Ontario teacher's college for the primary (K-6) 
level.  He has yet to get a job, as a matter of fact, interviews are not
even very easy to obtain.  Anyway, the double whammy is that the boards of
education want to increase the numbers of males at the junior level and 
increase the numbers of females at the senior teaching level.  Really?

Peter Granic
From: bhead@hfs.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Bradley Head)
Newsgroups: can.jobs
Subject: Re: Getting into the UNIX world
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 21:21:45 GMT
Reply-To: bhead@hfs.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Bradley Head)
Distribution: ca
Organization: Headfirst Software, Vancouver, BC, Canada

Arne Grimstrup writes
> I keep seeing a fair number of positions for UNIX/C/C++
> programmers come up that I'm interested in, but I don't
> have the background/training for.  I'm taking CS at the
> U of Manitoba and have 2 years experience as a C programmer
> in the MS-DOS environment.
> 
> Can any of you out in netland shed any light on how to
> make the switch/get into the market?
> 
I'd say stay in school. You should be dealing with UNIX by the
time you reach 3rd year CS at U of Man. If not, transfer to some
other University, and fast!  No one should get a degree in CS
without exposure to UNIX. It has so much of what all CS research has
meant for the last 20 years. MS-DOS may provide a gamut of
job opportunities in itself, but you'll find a heck of a lot more
technically to be gained by learning UNIX. Be sure to enrol in data 
communications courses and advanced o/s courses to be sure you get exposure to  
UNIX.

..Brad
-- 
Bradley Head, bhead@hfs.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (NeXTmail :-)
InStep Mobile Communications, Inc., Headfirst Software Ltd. 
Executive of Vancouver NeXT User's Society, Vancouver, BC.
Xref: sparky can.jobs:167 ont.jobs:141