Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Predestination Mr. Adams
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:21:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: SPSS Inc.

Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross) writes:


>I disagree with the statement that you made to gross@rtp... .  The bible
>does indeed say in many places that only the elect will become saved,
>because God has foreordained it.  Other than that, many inferences to the
>doctrince of predestination exist.
Hmm.  The doctrine of predestination causes quite a few questions to come
up.  If man has no free-will, then what's the point?  God created a set of
puppets to entertain him?  Are you truly saying that we have no choice in
the matter.  If, as I suspect, you are saying this, may I ask if you happen
to be a 5-point Calvinist?

>In order to beleive that some are predestined and some not though, you
>have to believe in the sovereignty of God.  I am not convinced that you
>do.  The doctrine of predestination is actually very comforting and
>encouraging to the christian, because it shows unequivacally how much
>Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, (three in one) love us.
I believe in the full and absolute sovereignty of God, and salvation
through Jesus Christ.  I also believe that in His sovereignty, God has
given us a free will, made us free moral agents, and allows us to chose our
actions.  If we chose to follow Jesus Christ, accept him as our Lord and
Saviour and confess that we are sinful, we can gain the gift of salvation.

There are two parts here.  God's gracious, undeserved gift of Salvation and
man's faith in God to save him.  Justification by faith and salvation by
grace.  There is no physical action I can perform to receive this gift, yet
if I confess Jesus is Lord and confess my sins, God who is merciful and
just will forgive my sins and cleanse me from my unrighteosness.
(paraphrase by me).

>Gross@rtp...  was definitely NOT way off base in that remark.  If indeed
>God is sovereign, then he and he alone has the right to pick and choose
>who will and who won't get into heaven.  "Should the clay then rise up to
>the potter and say why hast thou made me thus? "  (paraphrase by me)  Many
>times in the bible it says that some were given over to whatever sins they
>were in at the time, while others were saved. (No matter where in life
>they were.)
Yes, God has the right to pick and chose.  Absolutely.  But He has set down
a condition : faith in Him and trust in His salvation, granted as a gift,
through the life, death and resurection of His Son.  Salvation is NOT out
of reach of anyone who will follow Christ, and believes in Him and walks in
his ways, to the glory of His holy name.

>Once you can admit to God's soveriegnty, then predestination will become a
>truly GREAT blessing.  Perhaps if that ever happens, you will find that
>homosexuality is indeed wrong, and that all the rest of the silly things
>we argue about on this net are wrong.  You might even find that liberality
>is not a gift from the Lord, for the enlightening of one's mind, but an
>extremely subtle trap for the weak minded.  (No flames for this please, I
>already know how most of you feel)
Predesitination would hardly be a blessing.  It says, basically, that we
have no control over what we do.  That our thoughts, words and deeds have
absolutely no meaning, as they were pre-ordained.  What meaning do our
actions have?  I could do anything I pleased, for if I were one of the
elect, my actions would have no effect on my salvation.

>I submit Mr. Adams, that just because you haven't accepted this blessing,
>there is no reason to try and make someone else doubt it.  I'm sure you
>know all the catchy little verses I would point out here from Paul's
>writings. 
Ah, but see, predestination is not a universal Christian idea.  Good,
honest Christians disagree.  I submit to you that YOU might be the one who
has missed to meaning of the text.  Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe 
you have received some dispensation from God which says that your
interpretation is correct, and the only one.

>You are an extremely educated man Mr. Adams, and I hope that you will look
>into this area intellectually as well as emotionally.  You will benefit,
>I'm sure.
I am sure of my salvation....I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour,
and confess my sins....I try to walk His way and do His bidding....  Thanx
for the complement, though.

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
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     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558