From: rcashman@cs.ulowell.edu (The Jester)
Subject: Re: Proposal? (girls, atheists, sexuality)
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 23:34:24 GMT

In article <1992Apr07.220916.33137@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
>
>I'm one of the ninety-plus percent of American citizens who follow a
>"heterosexual lifestyle", but I disagree that Mr. Cashman speaks for me.
>
>In a pluralistic democracy, I will agree to tolerate others,
>and I expect others to tolerate me.  It may be that in
>a typical American nuclear family, the husband likes to
>watch basketball games, but I don't.  I don't want to
>be ostracized (except from basketball fan clubs) for
>not liking basketball.  I won't ostracize my next-door neighbor
>for not liking music.  


As usual, Mr. Strom (who is not the only person guilty of this) defends
his point of view by citing completely irrelevant examples.

The topic of debate (for those of you who have lost focus) is whether
or not homosexuality conforms to the traditional family and religious
ideals that the BSA encourages.  Nobody has presented a rational arg-
ument why it does, so my position on the matter remains unchanged.

Yet, at the same time, Mr. Strom refutes his own argument by way of
his "basketball" example.  The BSA is your "basketball fan club,"
Mr. Strom.  It is a fan club for a non-atheistic, monogamous, heterosexual
lifestyle.  And it tries to teach this lifestyle as being a
traditional American ideal.  If you are not a "fan" of this lifestyle,
you are not invited to join the "fan club."

Of course, Mr. Strom, I would never presume to TRY to speak for you.
You are quite capable of presenting arguments like the above all by
yourself.


>Now my son's been in scouts.  I know what they do.
>And there is absolutely no relationship between
>scouting activities and either religion or sexual
>orientation.  I claim that people pretend that there
>is as a pretext for excluding certain groups against
>which some Americans are prejudiced.


You can claim anything you want, Mr. Strom.  But you should get your
facts straight before you do.  In point of fact, there is a point of
the Scout Law and a clause in the Scout Oath that specifically refer
to being dutiful to one's religion.  The BSA encourages young men to
develop a lasting relationship with whatever God they choose to wor-
ship.  The organization does not encourage atheism.

Along the same lines, Mr. Strom, you apparently have not read the
rather extensive section in the beginning of the Boy Scout Handbook
that discusses a young man growing to adulthood.  The Handbook
encourages (entirely inferred, of course, but nonetheless) a mono-
gamous, heterosexual family relationship.  In no way does it encour-
age homosexuality.

These are just two of the many ideals that the organization attempts
to teach.  If you are not willing to practice, conform to, or, at the
very least, encourage these ideals, you should not expect to be in-
vited to become a member.


>In two prior postings I asked whether celibates
>(e.g. priests, friars, etc.) are excluded from
>leadership roles in Scouts.  I'm fairly sure that
>they are not.  It is obvious that priests and friars
>cannot have "normative" nuclear families.  If they're
>not excluded from scouting but homosexuals are, then
>it's obvious that there's some other reason having
>nothing to do with the nuclear family behind the
>exclusion.  The reason is good old-fashioned prejudice.


Yet again, Mr. Strom clouds the waters of debate with inflammatory rhetoric
in order to make his point.  Priests and friars are not excluded from lead-
ership roles in the scouting program because, while they cannot conform to
scouting ideals in terms of sexuality, they have dedicated their life to
another, slightly more important ideal of the organization: religion and
service to God (in whatever form).

By the same token, men and women who are unable to have children are not ex-
cluded from the scouting program because they do not defy the ideals that the
organization attempts to teach.

I hope, Mr. Strom, that this serves as an adequate rebuttal.  And I hope
that you will do some research on the topic on which you speak before you
present idle opinion as "fact."


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brett Cashman (The Jester)			    	rcashman@cs.ulowell.edu

"Come not between the dragon and his wrath!"
				- Lear, "King Lear"
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Newsgroups: rec.scouting