HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 10:38:24 GMT
Organization: (getting there)

owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) writes:

 >Strayt white men won't give Andrea Dworkin the time of day, never mind an 
 >oportunity to spread her bitter memes. 

I'm not sure whether Owen is spelling it that way to suggest a state
of mind, but if it's meant as a simple translation of heterosexual,
I can think of plenty of counterexamples.

This isn't a spelling flame.  I vary my spelling of "straight"
in order to be suggestive, but I know that Owen doesn't usually
focus on orthographic variants.  I'm allowing for the fact that
if I introduced him to the folks I'm thinking of, he might say
that they're "straight but not strayt," or something similar.

 >I happen to know quite a few women who don't put up with it, who center
 >their self-worth within themselves and get on with their lives and 
 >tasks.

Are  you using "who don't put up with it" (meaning, I gather,
Dworkin's attitudes) as a measure of the extent women center their
self-worth withing themselves (etc.)?  It sounds a little like it,
and the paragraph struck me as a bit patronising on that account.


-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.
From: an3360@anon.penet.fi
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Long-term relationships...success stories please...
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:14:00 GMT
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: soc.motss

Here's a tangent to this thread: does anyone have examples of successful 
"conventional" marriages (by that I simply mean involving a man and a woman, 
no prejudices intended or implied) in which both partners are gay and have 
got together for the sake of appearances and/or having kids?  Or how
about successful marriages in which one or both partners is bi and has 
been allowed to carry on with a gay relationship outside the marriage?
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Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: Straight Friend's Opinions (was Re: Roseanne and The "Faggot" Insult)
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
	<1992Dec16.155725.17407@tc.cornell.edu>
	<1992Dec16.195318.19119@exu.ericsson.se>
	<1992Dec17.160107.10690@infonode.ingr.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:57:52 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Dec17.160107.10690@infonode.ingr.com> norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris) writes:

   We have a SF who had just never *thought* about these things before we
   came out to her.  (Which is no surprise, most people tend to not worry 
   about things that don't effect them.)  But after educating her about
   the problems and challenging her pre-conceived notions, she has come to
   realize the discrimination involved.

   If your friend can't be educated, maybe you should re-evaluate your friend-
   ship.

I agree.  A friend gets time to deal with and learn about the issues,
to realize that you aren't an axe murderer, pedophile, or any other
Clayton-category, to talk to you, etc.  If, after that time, the
friend still feels you are not deserving of equal rights, it's time to
rethink the friendship.

Why?  Because for this person *you* are not more important than *your
sexuality*.  And if that's the case, there's a basic problem with the
foundations of the relationship.

--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: yorton@turtle11.rtsg.mot.com (James J. Yorton)
Subject: Re: Gay Sailor Murdered ?
Reply-To: yorton@rtsg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:37:02 GMT

In article <1ha24fINNsi3@pith.uoregon.edu>, dise@decoy.uoregon.edu (David Casti) writes:
|> Hi folks,
|> 
|> I've heard various rumblings about a gay sailor being murdered in Japan, but  
|> the media has been unexpectedly silent on the issue.  I found the following AP  
|> article, and am wondering if anyone else has heard about this.
|> 

Yes, this is sad, but true.  He was from Chicago Heights, a Chicago
suburb.  He recently came out to his mom.  She claimed he was just
confused.  He wanted off that ship so badly.  It must of been hell
for him.  Some Chicago TV stations led with this story in their evening
broadcast.

He died a horrible death.  He was beaten beyond recognition.  His
mom was asked to identify his body and couldn't.  They had to use
fingerprints to positively identify him.  One of the sailors implicated
in the beating is 6'4", 250 lbs, and a body builder.  They think his
face was repeatedly slammed into the sink.  His mom said the only
thing left of his face was his nose sticking out.  Makes me sick
to write this but people have to know what happened him.

There was another sailor on the ship who was gay, and they removed
him from it.

His mom said that whenever he was on leave and she saw him off,
it was always a quick good-bye and then he'd leave.  But the last
time he was home, he kept saying goodbye and hugging her at the airport.
Almost like he didn't want to leave because he knew what was in store 
for him.  He kept telling her he couldn't wait to see her for Christmas.

In a letter to his younger brother he encouraged him to join the navy
and make it a career.  Then when he was home he told him not to.
"They screw you over", he said.

One sailor is in custody.  The other received a bad conduct discharge
for not reporting a serious crime, and resisting arrest, and got
a year in the military slammer.  Insiders say that may be reduced to
4 months.

Kudos to all major Chicago TV stations and newspapers for covering
this in detail.

--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Jim Yorton                            | 
Motorola Inc., General Systems Sector |
Cellular Infrastructure Group         | Internet:  yorton@rtsg.mot.com
Arlington Heights, IL  60004          |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com (Rod Williams)
Subject: "Nipple-Sucking Tourists Robbed"
Originator: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:27:52 GMT


A Reuters story in yesterday's (12/29/92) San Francisco
Examiner, reprinted without permission...

    ---------------------------------------------------

BANGKOK -- A gang of transvestites has been robbing tourists
after enticing them to suck their tranquilizer-laced nipples,
police said Tuesday.

Police arrested four Bangkok transvestites and a woman Sunday
after complaints were received from a Syrian and a Hong Kong
man.

The Syrian said he was robbed of a Rolex watch and more than
$4,000 in cash, police said.

The transvestites' breasts were smeared with tranquilizers to
put the unwitting victims to sleep, a police spokesman said.

Drugging drinks is a favorite tactic for gangs preying on
tourists.

"But many of our customers did not drink, so we would get them
to suck our drug-laced nipples," transvestite Somboom Wannasut
was quoted by the Nation newspaper as saying.

A standby tactic used by the gang was to feed the customers
laced chocolates, police said.

    ---------------- end of article -------------------

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: My 5-year HS Reunion... the results!
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:20:23 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu (Tracey McCartney) wrote:
>In article <1hon97INNc79@sdl.Warren.MENTORG.COM>
>tal@Warren.MENTORG.COM (Tom Limoncelli) writes:
> 
>(A lot of way cool and extremely encouraging stuff about Tom's HS reunion
>deleted...)

Ahhhh!  Something happened to my feed, and I never got this.  Can someone
e-mail it to me?  Thanks.

>My 10-year class reunion is in a couple of years. I graduated with 125
>others from a rural high school. Skipping the reunion is *not* an
>option for me; I am the class president and will have to organize the
>damned thing. So I've been thinking a lot lately (I know, I know, it's
>kinda premature) about what I'll do when the day rolls around.

[Plans for reunion, and worrying about former classmates deleted.]

>Oh, well... I have two years to stew over this. Any input is appreciated...

My ten year reunion was in September.  I still have a few close friends
from high school, all of them straight (at the moment at least, for just
about anything will bend if hit hard enough), and know that a large number
of my former class-mates are queer (about 50% of the top 40 of our
graduating class).  I was class faggot, the one who got all the taunts
and harassment, while the others were left alone.  I was not out to anyone
nor was anyone out to me in high school.

Daivd and I went with our friends and their spouses.  We were the only
same sex couple who went, most of the rest living out of town.  I made no 
plans, except to let people know that they were correct in assuming I was a
faggot.  Many of the former harassers were there, and all were quite civil
to me.  Most made an effort to talk to me, and a number told me more than 
I really wanted to know about their lives.  I was even voted something like
"Most changed since high school" by my peers, and for that won a cheap 
bottle of wine.  Daivd, usually frightened in such situations, had a great
time, and can't wait for his 20th.

I don't know how much this would apply to you.  This was Miami Beach.

Input?  Just be yourself.  Don't go to great pains to worry about everyone
else or to make plans for how everything will happen.  Just go and have
a good time.  Enjoy.

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3328.span@sdsc.edu
"Home is where your roof landed" - t-shirt seen in Miami
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re: Attention...)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 17:45:18 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser) writes:
> Let us not forget the employees in Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, Kentucky,
> Virginia, North Carolina, and elsewhere fired simply because they were
> Gay or Lesbian.

(not to bait anyone..)  Did these places have laws that allowed this?  If 
they did, why wasn't there any boycott movement against these states? 
What has been done to fix those situations? 

Walter
From: pauli@sgi.com (Paul Isaacs)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Origin of the term "faggot"
Date: 23 Dec 1992 18:33:27 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniblab.asd.sgi.com

In article <1992Dec23.124020.5309@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>In article <1h98sfINNsak@mizar.usc.edu>
>adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Dec23.030119.6074@netcom.com> 
>>foucault@netcom.com (Howard Arthur Faye) writes:
>
>>> In article <1h8i7iINN6je@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> 
>>> aa704@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jennifer Engel) quotes:
>>> >				Guisseppe Verdi
>>> 				^^^^^^^^^
>
>>> Sacrilege!  Impiety! Desecration! PERFIDIA!!!
>
>>Maledizione!  Maledizione!  Maledizione!  Maledizione!
>
>Morte, morte.  Addio (ancora)!
>

Il piangere non vale.


pauli.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: Congratulating (het) parents on their new baby
Organization: insert anything here
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:49:12 GMT

ji@cs.columbia.edu (John Ioannidis) writes:
>Every once in a while I'll read on the local bboards in the places I
>have accounts at, that Mr&Mrs so-and-so had a brand new baby, vital
>statistics of the baby follow, and the message ends with how the
>father is proud and the mother is resting at the hospital. The message
>is invariably congratulatory.
>
>So here are my questions:

>1. Is it a het thing, and I just don't understand?
>2. Is there something intrinsic to be proud of on the part of the
>father? The only thing he has proven so far is that he has a working
>reproductive system.

	Oooh jumping to conclusions: an alternate
explanation (which I often want to mentally invoke) is
that the mother has a working reproductive system and
good skills at finding someone with a working reproductive
system, involving the father not being a criterion.

>3. WRT #2 above, is the father being congratulated on his bedroom
>prowess, and the mother on being fertile? (Of course, it could be
>congratulating the father for putting up with his wife, and the mother
>for actually going through the trouble of having a baby, but I somehow
>doubt that this is the case).
>4. Why do we never see such messages by same-sex couples? Or single
>parents? Or adoptive parents? 

	Taste?  :-)  No, really a few years ago we had the
pleasure of following the pregnancy of one of our own and
it was very nice.

>5. Am I the only one with the (suppresed) urge to post followups along
>the lines of "who cares?" or "only 10 pounds? You can hardly make a
>pot roast out of that!"

	(And I can just hear you saying this too!)  

	That's up there with one of my faves... whenever a
child is fussing loudly in some public place, I want to scream
"I think there's a microwave around here somewhere that will
fit that!"  (I know bad bear, no noogie)...

>6. Should I really be working on finishing my thesis and not bothering
>soc.motss with my morning (very late night, actually) bitchiness?

	Why?  It hasn't stopped me... :-)

	I think that a "finished thesis" is an oxymoron.  Well,
in my saner moments, I want to make myself believe that...

BBC
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
	<1hvkaiINNalh@hp-col.col.hp.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 00:14:24 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1hvkaiINNalh@hp-col.col.hp.com> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

   > Those companies and organizations that have implemented
   > Domestic Partner benefit plans have come up with numerous ways
   > to determine who is a valid DP

   Progress...anyone have any examples of some?  Maybe identifying 
   companies that do *not* yet have them, but who show evidence 
   of not discriminating based on SP, and sending them samples of 
   how other companies have solved the problem would cause more 
   companies to offer DP benefits? 

Companies have validated DPs in a number of ways.  Some require proof
of finanacial interdependence for six months or a year (by showing
financial records), some (Stanford) require the DPs to sign a legal
statement equivalent to the responsibilities of marriage.  Some simply
require a signed statement.  The more enlightened companies require
nothing, since most companies require no proof of marriage from
married couples and there is no particular history of fraud.

The Stanford legal paper is rather unfair, by the way, since married
couples can have their legal responsibilities waived.

As for addressing the companies that don't have these benefits...
Sigh.  Walter, there are organizations dedicated to nothing but that.
More than one of us in this news group work with them.  You can trust
that we do put our efforts where our mouths are.
--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Abolish Marriage
Summary: A modest proposal
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 02:07:00 GMT


Here's an idea that should do a neat end-run around the whole
gay-marriage issue. Why not have the government cease to
recognize marriage of any sort?

Here's how it would work:

If two or more people wanted to "get married", they'd sign a
contract specifying the obligations each had to the other,
whether financial, sexual, regarding children, whatever. The
contract would also specify under what conditions the arrangement
could be dissolved, and what the obligations would be after such
a dissolution. It would also specify under what circumstances the
agreement could be altered.

Note that there's nothing to stop people from having any
religious ceremony they want. For many/most people, that's
really what constitutes a marriage.

For simplicity's sake, the law might treat a religious ceremony
as an implied contract, unless the couple/group/whatever
explicitly made another contract. For example, if a couple got
married in an Orthodox Jewish ceremony, this would imply that the
arrangement could be dissolved on grounds of sexual infidelity,
unless the couple had explicitly made a different agreement. This
would probably become irrelevant; I expect most churches would
set up boilerplate contracts which they expected their adherents
to use, possibly requiring that adherents use the contracts if
they want their church's clergy to participate. (Judaism already
does this; the husband and wife have to work out a formal
agreement-- a "ketubah"-- detailing the rights and obligations of
each participant.) All this would be up to the church, and of
course people could contract a marriage without any church's
involvement.

There would not be divorce law or courts; all of this would be
handled as contract law. And the law would not recognize the
state of "marriage" any more than it would any other contract;
for example, tax laws would not recognize marriage as being
different from any other room-mate kind of arrangement.

It could work. The time is right. I just wouldn't want to be the
congressman who first proposed it...
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado
Date: 31 Dec 1992 00:21:27 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser) writes:
> Well, thank goodness the kill fill didn't compile (needed to alter some
> permissions on a subdirectory because of a filesys mask in effect):

Bummer...let me know when you have it fixed, eh? 

> If you can't take the heat, Walter, stay out of the kitchen. 

Oh please, Mike...who's the one storming off and having to edit 
their kill file, and then following up anyways?  

>I've asked
> you, both publicly and privately, certain questions.  You have not
> deemed them worthy of response, but instead engage in ad hominem attacks
> at will.

'ad hominem' for saying you're blubbering?  Please, I've gotten a lot 
worse flak in this forum for my views.  As to 'questions' you've asked 
and have not gotten answers to, if you really want them answered by 
me, go ahead and repost them.  Try reposting them *seperate* from your
blubbering (hate to see a good macro go to waste...) about me saying 
gays want quotas, etc.   But before you do, either put up about my 
claiming gays want quotas, or quit blubbering.  (there's that macro
again..._)  Or better yet, if you're not going to put up about what 
you *claim* I said, just fix that kill file, and save us both some 
wasted energy.  If all you're going to do is attack me for things 
I've never said, you're not doing either of us (or those who haven't 
yet added this subject to *their* kill files) any favors. 

Walter

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Costner plans Colorado Filming
Distribution: soc
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 02:26:50 GMT

tal@plts.uucp (Tom Limoncelli) writes:

>New Jersey has just about everything that is listed in the "Demands"
>for the MOW93 (more-so than any other state).  New Jersey law prohibits
>discrimination based on sexual-orientation in employment, housing,
>loans, and public accomodations.  

What about CREDIT and EDUCATION, which are in Vermont's law? 
[And I hear Vermont has good skiing, too. I dunno, it looks too dangerous
to me!]

-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735. ``D.C., April 25 1993''
vox:(518)-276-8910 fax:(518)-276-6920 buckmr@rpi.edu buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet
0.5% of all homosexual marriages in Denmark end in divorce. [O.C. _Blade_]
From: esm@june.che.utexas.edu (Edward Scott Meadows)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Austin, TX joins Colo. Boycott
Date: 29 Dec 92 18:22:28 GMT
Organization: UT Department of Chemical Engineering

In article <1992Dec29.170734.1806@PacBell.COM> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>> snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass) writes:
>>> buckmr@aix02.ecs.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
>
>>>Are you saying hat AUSTIN, TEXAS has had a gay rights ordinance on the
>>>books since 1974??
>>
>>I don't see how Austin could have an equal rights ordinance for g/l
>>because of Texas law 26.01....but it is a real hip place.  Austin was
>>one of the first cities in the nation to ban discrimination in housing
>>and on the jobs in the case of AIDS....

It's true that Texas has a sodomy law, but that doesn't prevent the
passage of local gay and lesbian civil rights laws.  Also, Austin was
the site of a legal challenge to 21.06 (not 26.01) that resulted in
the sodomy law being ruled unconstitutional.  (The state constitution
has an explicit right to privacy included.)

The ruling is being appealed to the state supreme court, to be heard
early in 1993.  The costs (>$100,000) are being borne by the Texas
Human Rights Foundation.  They have almost no money and can probably
use some help if anyone is interested (Ph. (512) 479-8473).

>>Don't think Texas when you think about Austin....It is sort of like
>>a Shangrila in the middle of the whole of the Bible belt, which starts
>>just on the north fringes of town......

And don't forgot that Austin has one of the nation's few openly gay
state representatives, Glen Maxey.  He was chosen best legislator by
the local alternative (not gay) newspaper and was re-elected in
November by a 2-1 margin.

>It's not the same since they closed down the Armadillo
>World Headquarters.  But any town that has Esther's Pool,
>Barton Springs and bats under the bridge is OK w/me :-)
>-- 

Armadillo World Headquarters was before my time, but I have been to
Esther's Follies, Barton Springs, and to see the bats.  It's a magical
place! 

-- 
Edward S. Meadows
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Texas
Austin TX 78721-1062
Newsgroups: soc.motss