HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rmy@pyuxf.uucp (Robert Yaeger)
Subject: Re: Truth
Organization: bcr.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 21:05:28 GMT


  
You need clarification for something so essential and simple? The reason I
call this the fundemental truth is because I don't doubt it in the least.
I've seen all kinds of prattling about truths, but this one is pure and
completely unambigous, at least to me.
  
You imply that you know what *some* things are, well why don't YOU enlighten
us with this knowledge? I know you won't because you can't, you don't know
what *anything* is. Sure you have your own petty little philosphies that
will mean nothing when your dead, you know the names of zillions of objects,
maybe even know how to use a few of them wisely, but examine it closely,
mediatate that the entire friggin universe is a mystery.
  
Pretty tough for your ego to take huh? So you resort to the egoic defense
mechanism of diatribes.
  
  
Bob Yaeger






In article <1992Dec22.133228.17214@hemlock.cray.com> sle@cray.com (Stan L. Eads) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.151131.15117@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> rmy@pyuxf.uucp (Robert Yaeger) writes:
>>I think the fundemantal truth is that we don't know and no one, not the
>>president, our parents, the pope, not kings and queens, knows what a
>>single thing Is, we know a lot of details about all kinds of things, but
>>what it Is, remains a mystery and always will.
>
>Of course I do!  I may not know what everything is, but I know that
>you don't know what in the world you're talking about!  
>
>Please explain yourself.  Have you really just exposed all of us here
>to THE "fundemantal" truth? Is there a chance that the more perceptive
>or advanced among us will recognize the wisdom here and start off on
>the road to enlightenment?  Are we missing our chance?
>
>>Enjoy the spirit of love and giving of this wonderful season as we celebrate
>>the return of the Light.
>
>May your holiday mela be a blessed one as well.
>
>>Yours in the Great Mystery,
>> 
>>Jaya Gurudev!
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>And what is this supposed to mean?
>
>
>>Bob Yaeger
>
>Stan
>
>
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 30 Dec 92 22:51:37 GMT

In article <30DEC199213204214@jane.uh.edu> lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>In article <1hse5hINN940@uwm.edu>, pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii) writes...
>>In article <C01Koo.B93.1@cs.cmu.edu> drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
>>>>In the early days of Xtianity the cross was not worshipped.  In fact
>>>>it was a point of shame that their Christ was crucified.  It was a
>>>>social stygma to be associated with someone who was crucified.  And
>>>>it was a way of vilifying (sp) the person who was sentenced to death.
>>>
>> 
>>I thought that the cross, as used by the Xians was a symbol of the sacrafice
>>that Jesus supposedly made of himself to the world.
>> 
>>". . . gave His only begotten Son etc, etc, etc, . . . "
>> 
>>Peter Thomas
>
>Funny thing just happened to me.  Despite knowing this quote in my sleep for
>the better part of my 28 years in this life...at this moment I find that I
>can't pull it up....darn!  What good is all that Xtian upbringing if it's 
>going to fail you in your moment of need....:)

Isn't it John 3:16, the quote that that yahoo with the rainbow hair used
to hold up at football games until he got arrested for trying to rob a
store or something?  "For God so loved the world that He gave His only
brgotten son, that whosoever shall believe in Him shall not die but live
forever," roughly.

Blessings,
Janis
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 3 Jan 93 23:03:24 GMT

>lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>> The way it seems to be comming out is that only Gardenarian Wicca is "
>> Witchcraft" and only it is a witch religion.  Fam Trads are not because 
>> of the fact that they are not Gardenerian, but only folk magic.  
>> Therefore you have no documented evidence of Wicca existing before 
>> Gardener. 
>> 
>> Does everyone else see the circle that I do? 

Perhaps this is so obvious no one has posted it, or perhaps someone has
and I just had my eyes closed (a possibility) but I haven't run into
anyone who seriously claims that every word of their ritual and practice
comes from millenia ago; there's nuts out there, I know, I just haven't
run into them personally. 

Wicca/Paganism/Witchcraft all revive things that were held in high
regard by old pre-xtian religions.  They enjoy sexuality -- or purport
to -- are polytheistic when they are theistic at all, mostly, try to
connect as much as possible with the progression of the seasons, and try
to regard humans as another flavor of animal, which is what we are.
While the wands, swords, and colors of the candles are new revivals, and
while the Books of Shadows are printed on xerox paper, the basic flavor
survives.  Wicca is a modern religion that has its foundation in what we
know of old traditions, and I've never seen anything that makes me think
differently.  

Blessings,
Janis
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Meaning of pentagram, pentacle for You
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 09:04:38 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:

>between the States (Civil War to most).  The only real difference between
>the KKK and Nazi's is that the KKK has never risen to political power like
>the Nazi's did and the KKK often use religion as an excuse for their
>existance and tactics.

The Nazi Party often used religion as an excuse as well.  Germany, note,
was a Christian nation.  Hitler was commended as a defender of the faith
by the Pope at the time.



-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@d0gslb.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Nomenclature./Men are Not witches!
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:00:51 GMT
X-Posted-From: d0gslb.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec18.212725.23970@athena.cs.uga.edu>, tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu 
(Ted Kalivoda) writes:
> Okay, let's clear the air on this one.  Since when were men called witches? 

Oh, since the word was derived from "Wicca" (pronounced WICH-A), the masculine
form of the old english word for "Wise one".  The female form is "Wicce" (Also
pronounced WICH-A)  Hence, Witch is the appropriate term for a man or woman
practising Witchcraft.

> The correct terminology for a man who endeavors to engage in magical
> practices is "Warlock".  

You've been watching too much "Bewitched."  Warlock comes from "Waer Loga",
meaning oath-breaker, which has nothing to do with Magic.  The term came about
as a derogatory reference to people who claimed to be Christian openly (to
avoid persecution) but practised their particular pagan faith in secret.

> The more gender nuetral term would be "Necromancer".  

"Necromancer" specifically refers to someone who performs Necromancy, which is
only one form of Magic.

> If I practiced magic, I surely wouldn't want to be called a witch. 

That's hardly our problem, now is it?
Since you don't practise any of this, where the hell do you get off telling
those who do practise it what to call ourselves?

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: magus@brewhau.bison.mb.ca (James Copland)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Space, the final frontier
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 23:48:36 CST
Distribution: na
Organization: Organium Brainbending & Low Level CodeWorks of Winnipeg, Manitoba.

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

[snip ...]
>
> Uh -- how do you keep the launching station from soaking up momentum by
> shooting off in the opposite direction?  You'd have to build a PRETTY
> BIG FUCKING STATION.
>
> Blessings,
> Janis

Salut!

Or bolt the launching station to the moon! Yes, it increases the moons
rotational velocity.  Two of them could balance each other out by
launching simultaneously in opposite directions.  In free space
adjustments could be made via retro rockets.

Regards,
Magus.

-- magus@brewhau.bison.mb.ca (James C. Copland)
-- Brew Haus -- Winnipeg, Manitoba
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: luikero@pcuf.fi (Lauri Kero)
Subject: Re: Meaning of pentagram, pentacle for You
Organization: The PC-users of Finland
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 20:30:38 GMT

Reply_to_article_from: cn573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ray Henry)
 
> There are MANY different meanings for the pentagram.
> 2.   Each point represents a God or Goddess aspect of the One.
>      These are Diana, Selene, Hecate, Kernunnos, Pan (or whatever
>      names you call them by.)
 
        So which religion tells its followers this?
 
> It is also common to use the proper pentagram to indicate White
> magic and the inverted pentagram to indicate Black magic.
 
        I have always (before) thought that this is vice versa because
        the pentagram that has one point straight up always represented
        the devil, and his crew, to me. Thus I thought that when it is
        inverted it's 'white(r)'.
        But the pictures with a goat that has an inverted pentagram on
        its forehead contradicts with my previous opinion so I think you
        are right.
 
> Hence, the popularity of the inverted pentagram by self-proclaimed
> "Satanists" as well as those who actually do follow the darker paths.
 
        Gee, I'd like to get email from a true satanist, just to get
        some idea of what their religious life is like and all..
        Haven't found any though.
        (So if any true satanist reads this article I'd appreciate a
        piece of mail. Thanks.)
 
> Blessed be,
 
        Thee also.
 
> Ray Henry - cn573@cleveland.freenet.edu
 
-- luikero@pcuf.fi (Lauri Kero)
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Space, the final frontier
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 02:33:03 PST

Re: Re: Space, the final frontier
>Oh, why not join this happy mutual grilling?
>
>One item that keeps popping up in this thread is the idea of
>getting cheap, clean electricity from orbiting power satellites.
>
>Not to be a spoilsport, but . . .
>
>What power density is necessary to transfer, say, 25% of North
>America's power needs from orbiting satellites to Earth-based
>power receivers?

Depends on the number of satellites and receivers, with questions
to be answered, like are we talking about receivers attached to
individual housing units, communities, central station into the
power grid?

>What frequencies are most efficient for power transfers from
>orbit to the Earth's surface?

Don't have the reference in front of me... who wants to look it
up? (microwave path losses vs. frequency)

>How much microwave radiation does that expose people to?

Design dependent. How much pollution does a car put out?
(right... decide which car you mean, measure it and see. On a
microwave power distribution system, you can do the measurements
at the simulation level... given a system design.)

>How does that compare with current microwave exposure levels?
See above.

>Based on our current understanding of the effects of microwave
>radiation on human beings, what health hazards would this pose?

I've seen quite a bit of argument on this topic... Soviet
RF/microwave exposure standards were a fraction of US...

>What level of health hazard would you consider acceptable?

How about a level of cancers / 100,000 people 10% below that
resulting from conventional fossil fuel plants? As a start.

Something you missed... there has been discussion of using high
powered laser systems as the energy transfer medium.

>                                - - Steve
>
Blessings...
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== sum saurus, sum saurus, sum maximus saurus! ====== 93 ======
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Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 09:45:02 GMT

george_paap@email.sps.mot.com (George Paap) writes:
: 
: Now I agree (regretfully) that many pagan books are poorly
: referenced or researched and I would certainly prefer an 
: exhaustive list of sources I could read myself.  However,
: I don't require an "definitive source" before I evaluate
: and incorporate ideas into my beliefs.  I weigh their

Nor have I ever stated that such should be necessary. I have
stated, many times, that it doesn't matter where your beliefs
come from, or how recent they originated.

I just believe that a person should be able to document their
claims. If they state that they have a family "tradition" that
goes back generations, then they should be able to prove it.

: validity based on my limited knowledge and opinions, and
: discard them if "better" information comes along.  Yes,
: claims are easy to make and much of what we read here are
: only opinions, but some are more informed than others and
: in the absence of written proof, I'll accept an informed 
: opinion over, "I can't read it, so I don't believe it".

As to whether a belief is reasonable, I agree.  However, an
empty claim of a family tradition is just than - an empty
opinion. Until someone, out of the thousands that claim these
family traditions provides some proof, I would suggest that
my "informed opinion" is very reasonable. So far, no one has
produces anything going back as far as 1950 - that is only
one generation.

: A final point on relevance.  I'm not sure I would change
: my belief system if tomorrow some tome was uncovered revealing
: the "actual" rituals, practices, and beliefs of ancient pagans.

There would not be any reason to - unless there was something that
you felt was better than what you currently have. There is no need
to "validate" your beliefs. 

: In fact, I'm glad that we don't have a "bible" which locks in
: words "the right way to do things" or the "proper" beliefs.  I

Ah, but some do. Ever heard of a BOS? Some people follow them 
very precisely - no variation allowed.

: don't really care if these beliefs were created in 1950 (although
: I really believe they are "ancient").  They work for me and
: provide me with a spiritual framework with which to positively
: affect my life and the world around me.  I think what will 
: ultimately cause the collapse of christianity is the fact that
: the belief system (for most people) is no longer relevant to
: their day to day lives, or is effective in addressing the enormous
: problems we face and will face as a global society.
: 
: For me, spirituality must be creative, experiential, and relevant, and
: that doesn't require "definitive proof".

I agree totally. I have never said otherwise. However, this is totally
beside the point - it is not what I was arguing about. 

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:19:52 GMT


In article <1hsmh8INN1vv@leela.CS.ORST.EDU>, casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU
(Paul Cass) writes:

> Ah...you know Steve these interspecies relationships never work out.  
> Besides my wife would take a dim view of a menage-a-kittie and I am
> lousy at sitting on fences and caterwauling.  

Paul,

I'm sorry if you've had bad IS relationships in the past.  My wife
is very understanding;  she has very good relationships with both
of our cats, although there are times when they clearly need a
male presence.  I have holes in the armpits of a couple of shirts
to prove it (ouch!).

I've found that practice is the only way to learn to caterwaul . . .
although I DO get funny looks if the cat and I do a duet in the
bathroom while my wife is in the shower . . .

Humans are odd folk, too!

				- - Steve


--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Nomenclature./Men are Not witches!
From: dan@conexch.uucp (Dan Mahoney)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:49:43 GMT
Organization: The Consultants' Exchange, Orange County, CA.  (714) 842-6348
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

An additional followup note to the above referenced post:

In many traditions, a male practitioner of Wicca is called a witch.  The 
terms warlock and necromancer are not used at all in many traditions.


-- 
Daniel Mahoney                  Opinions expressed herein are those of the
Comarco, Inc.                   author, and do not reflect the opinions of
714-282-3828                    Comarco Inc. or any of it officers.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 4 Jan 93 03:04:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.020504.1435@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>I think the question being asked here, and I would also like to see it
>answered, is if there is any evidence of Wicca existing before Gardner.
>Family traditions are a separate issue, unless these traditions appear
>to be related to Wicca.

Are we also talking about religions with similar traditions and beliefs
or something called Wicca(tm)?  Certainly, belief systems that use a
triune Goddess with an annually dying consort are legion, as are
religions that mark the solar and lunar points of the year with rituals
and revere natural elements.  Must it be called Wicca?

Blessings,
Janis  

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: Re: The Holly & The Ivy, etc.
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:08:39 GMT

In article <Bzr4uK.F2H@world.std.com> knighton@world.std.com (Gwen Knighton) writes:
> 
>Normally I'm a lurker around here;
>I hope that wasn't too long winded for folks
Not at all!  Thanks for the songs!!!!!

I've been having a rough day, getting the house all ready for my
family to celebrate the holiday of a religion that I'm not....
But, of course, I support my family (touch of sarcasm)...  Sigh.

Anyway, those lyrics brightened the day for me.  :)

>If you
>want to learn more about the subject, a pretty good
>primer is _Pagan Elements in English Folksong_,
>by Bob Stewart 
I might give it a look...  After this darn "holiday season" is over...

Blessed be!
Angela

-- 
**************************  angelai@wam.umd.edu  ****************************
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Yule greetings and happy news
Date: 22 Dec 1992 15:11 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

The other day I was listening to my Metallica album for the first time in
a long while.  While I was doing so it occurred to me how much the lyrics
of one of the songs reminded me of how I feel about this newsgroup.  I'd
like to post it to you all as a sort of Yule gift.  When reading the words
think about alt.pagan.

So close no matter how far
Couldn't be much more from the heart
Forever trusting who we are
And nothing else matters

Never opened myself this way
Life is ours, we live it our way
All these words I don't just say
And nothing else matters

Trust I seek and I find in you
Every day for us something new
Open mind for a different view
And nothing else matters

......


Great news Great news!

A couple of weeks ago I got a new computer at home (retiring the old 286/8
with one microchip in the grave).  Tonight I'm headed off to buy a modem.
With any luck (and some wiring of the phone jack) by this time tomorrow
I will be able to read and post from HOME! *yea*

Look for my triumphant return....well....at least my poking around....

BB,

Tammy of the joyous heart 
(plus a couple of earthquakes from all the jumping up and down)

8)

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: thorfinn@wixer.cactus.org (Thorfinn Einarsson)
Subject: Re: Power-over/Power-from-within
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 02:22:39 GMT

Greetings to All and to the Elves!

> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>: Get off the bipoar bandwagon, people.  Even I -- the one who hates
>: bipolar thinking so much -- neglected to realize what was going on.
>: Let's say we stop taking an axe to the universe in a effort to fit the
>: pieces into one of two mutually exclusive boxes.  We do it with human
>: talents -- this one is "male," this one is "female."  This one is
>: "liberal," this one "conservative."  This is "hawk," this is "dove."
>: This is "feminist," this is "traditional."  This is "Pagan," this is
>: "Christian."  Let's knock it off.
>: 
>: Yes, I'm back and snottier than ever!>
>
>Glad to see it. I have been arguing the same point, although not as
>eloquently, for years.

This was the goal of my original article "On Power": power is power,
and magic is magic. Reading the passage above brings joy to my heart. 
For Neo-Heathenry to mature, it must grow beyond the 
Wizard-of-Oz-Mentality: "Are you a good witch or a bad witch?" 
We must accept ourselves as whole entities and not externalize that
from within which we are led to believe is evil or bad. It is when we
repress or externalize these aspects of ourselves that we give power 
to them, and thus allow them to control us. The left hand path is
as valid as the right hand path. 

And the Eagle Flies With the Dove!
=-= Thorfinn Einarsson =-=-=-=-=-= ALU =-=-=-=-=-= O'dhinn er alfadhir! =-=
"En stundum vakti hann upp daudha menn o'r io"rdhu edha settisk undir hanga;
fyrir thvi' var hann kalladhr draugadro'ttinn edha hangadro'ttinn."
=-= ALU =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ynglinga saga ch. 7 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ALU =-=

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 05:05:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.015158.7606@serval.net.wsu.edu> 
 bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (William E. Johns;S23015) writes:
>In article <29DEC199212214576@jane.uh.edu> 
 lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>>
>>The early symbol of Xtianity was the fish, like is becomming popular 
>>today.
>
>Why was the fish a symbol?  Anyone have a good idea?  Even a bad one might
>be amusing.  :-)

It comes from a Greek acrostic phrase, which gives the word for "fish":

 Iesous = Jesus
 Christos = Christ
 Theou = of God
 Huios = Son
 Soter = Savior

 Ichthus = fish

It is one of the symbols found in the catacombs of Rome. It is
thought to have been used as a covert recognition sign for early
christians.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................