From: root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Flakey ex. husband/dad
Date: 13 Apr 92 08:10:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

In article <1992Apr10.214146.21491@sequent.com> jd@sequent.com (Jim Duckering) writes:
>
>
>Hi,

Hi back at ya! :-)

>I have a female friend that has been separated from her ex-husband for
>1year and has recently been divorced in the last couple of months.

Well, first, I can understand you wish to help, but sometimes it's best if
(out of friendship) you help by having your friend work things out for her-
self. This isn't a reprimand, it's said in the understanding that many
friendships have ended because friends wanted to help in a divorce. But read
on, and I'll see if I can give an observation or two. :-)

>His character is one that is easy going, likable on the surface, but
>tends to lie, cheat, ,be unreliable and take responsibility with a
>grain of salt.  I could site several examples, but you would be
>reading a 100 page doc.  Married young my friend had a little girl,
>now 4years old.  She had realized the mistake and made the smart
>decision to rid herself of this person.  She had offered her ex.  to
>be free of all responsibilities for their daughter, but the father
>wanted to be a part of the daughters life.

well, even people who have been married for sometime to an individual they're
divorcing won't know the individual they divorced. What I mean is, that a
divorce causes significant changes in people. It's a very traumatic ordeal,
and there are lots of stressors involved. It's hard to be involved in a
divorce and not come out on the other side as changed.

The first observation I would offer is that it's unwise to base your
understanding of the people in a divorce on their past. Instead, try to
understand (and keep up with) the changes of the people after the divorce.

>Ok, my friend said, but if that's the way its going to be lets be
>responsible and work together to insure a decent future and
>upbringing for our daughter.  Bitter, his idea of cooperating is it's
>none of her business how he handles things while the daughter is
>with him. (PROBLEM 1)

No, it's a problem only because your friend is having a difficult time
letting go. Remember that a divorce is the disassembly of a relationship, and
it doesn't necessarily entail the building of a new relationship, or even a
modification of the old one. The only time that one parent should be
concerned about what goes on in the other home is when there is a clear
danger to the child.

I've read your post all the way through, please hang in there. I'll get to
the junk food and late hours when I come to it. Ok?

> How do you ensure that he doesn't leave her in the care of others
> of weak character,(ex. He lived with a fellow for awhile he hardly knew
> and would go out and party while leaving his child with this person) or
> other equally irresponsible decisions.  Also he lets the little girl stay up
> till 1am or whenever, eat garbage food etc.  Not responsible at all.
> Fortunately this person has settled down with a gal, but still uses
> poor judgement.

Either the father is going to be as sure as he can be that his child is safe,
or he won't. But there will be much more significant indications of danger
than the ones you've mentioned here. Also, if it isn't really known what goes
on in the other house, as you stated above, then perhaps the guy isn't going
out to party. Even if he is, that isn't a crime in divorce any more than it
is when the parents of an intact family go out to party and leave the
child/ren with a baby sitter. Your friend might give some thought to doing a
little partying herself --as I said above, divorce is stress filled, and it
might be wise to let go a bit and drain some of that stress away.

As to the junk food and 1am bedtimes, remember that the child is probably
pretty stressed in this too. 99% of the parents I've seen in divorce don't
think in terms of the effects on the child. In your friends case, her
daughter is experiencing some pretty strong lack-of-control feelings, and
needs the ability to be in charge of some of her life. Given that mom's home
has probably maintained the usual rules and structures (as much as possible)
then that means that dad's house is the only place she can exert some
control. In time, she will (as will dad) grow tired of the late hours, and
return to a more normalized schedule. The same goes with the junk food. 

I know it's hard to do, but let your friend know that she should lighten up a
little --especially on herself. Try not to find a demon behind every rock, or
hiding in all the shadows. :-)

I would also venture to guess that she still has a lot more bitterness than
objectivity when it comes to him. It's only natural and very human. Allow her
to see that a trip to dad's isn't a trip to hell --she will over time. She
should consider herself and her daughter lucky that dad is right there
wanting to be involved. It's the best for all concerned, especially the
child.

>As a result of the divorce my friend took full financial responsibility for
>her child during the separation.  She worked out a more than reasonable
>settlement, $250.00/mth child support, but this person has not made
>the slightest effort to help out financially.  Currently doesn't work,
>but managed to buy a newer camaro while my friend struggles to
>meet basic needs.
>PROBLEM 2

Again, I have to caution that the financial dealings of the ex are not the
affairs of your friend. With a divorce came an order for support. You'll find
that courts give GREAT weight to mothers with custody. The law looked at the
circumstances and found (believe it or not) in her favor. If he had enough
left to swing a new car, then he did. Your friend is divorced --I can't drive
that home enough. She just HAS to let go. To do anything else is going to be
a great burden to her. Yes, it's difficult after so many years of having all
of her dealings entwined with him to just stop, but that's just the way it
has to be.

>In Oregon child support and child visitations are completely opposite issues.

Yes, in many, many states they are. The amount of money one or the other
parent has is not bearing on the abilities to love, nurture and provide for
children. Sure, you can say that someone whose rich is going to be able to
give more *things* to the child, but that has no relationship to the
intangible. So many courts (states) separate the issues, and rightly so.

>My friend would be happy to share in the upbringing of her daughter, If her
>ex could be responsible about the safety, values role model, and take
>part in helping to provide a college fund or medical assurance or anything,
>but he only lies has no commitment or follow through.  These characteristics
>are the only thing he is consistent at.

Well, at this point, with the divorce so new, I just can't get behind the
idea that there is a problem. Perhaps in a few months, or even after a year,
if things are the same, then maybe he should be looked into. But right now,
her judgement of her ex-partner is (ipso-facto) flawed. The system, and human
nature are affecting her. (Him too, by the way). Separation anxiety, even in
cases where there was extreme abuse, disctates that a temporary 'hate' period
be experienced by the partners. This is one of the kindnesses the brain give
to the parties, and inflicts on the opposite member.

>He does seem to really care for his daughter and shows her a lot of love and
>vice versa, which makes the situation difficult.  My friend
>thought that he would flake out, but he is interested in being a part
>of his daughters life.

This is a good reason to not see your citations as problems. He's
demonstrating the healthiest of attitudes, and showing that his priorities
most assuradly include the daughter. Your friend's perceptions are also
healthy, and a natural function of the separation. The bottom line is this,
both of the parents should be establishing their own relationships with their
daughter. And yes, each should butt out of the approach the other takes. At
least for the near future. Both should be monitoring the child --not looking
for reasons to panic, but just to watch and be aware. The daughter is going
through changes just as the parents are, and so even significant changes in
behavior aren't necessarily indications of trouble. The parents both need to
let go, and take their time. The world is a very different place for the
whole family now. As such, there are bound to be differences.

>MAIN QUESTION
>Since he is unwilling to cooperate how can she rid herself of this person,
>or make him more responsible for his actions..............

Simple. She can't.

I have to admit that I bristle a little at this question you pose. I have to
assume that you have some sort of stake in the circumstances, and that you
have taken a side. If the concern is really for the child, then I have to say
that your presence in this can be a lot more damaging to her than helpful.

Unwilling to cooperate? What exactly does that mean? Does it mean that he
won't see things her way? I don't intend rudeness, but I have to be candid.
Why should his life be her business when there is no evidence that he's done
anything to hurt his daughter? They're apart now. Divorce means that.

Responsible for his actions? Of course he's responsible for his actions. He
isn't responsible to *her* for his actions, he's responsible to his child,
and he's responsible to society. There should be no more owing of
responsibility for him or her to each other than there is to the mailman or
the next-door neighbor. They're divorced. If he screws up --if she screws up,
the law is there to deal with it.

Again, I have to say that time needs to go by so that the divorce may sink
in. Each of the partners are living separate lives now. It would be best if
they started to think and act that way. Of course, it will be a while before
that starts. It always takes a while. :-)

>The best answer we could come up with is for her to leave the state,
>but that has its own set of problems.

NO IT ISN'T. To do so would be to remove the child from her accustomed
environment. It would amplify the stresses on the child incredibly --not only
that, but it would amount to parental kidnap. Most of the courts I know would
take a dim view of that, and I should know. I've been a Guardian ad Litem
recommending solutions to the courts for a few years now. Unless dad (or mom)
is being physically abusive, emotionally abusive, or are molesting the child,
the absolute worst thing that could happen would be to attempt an artificial
separation. Not only that, but the daughter would end up pretty resentful of
the mother in a few years. Statistics demonstrate that clearly.

>I don't need any cursaders advice, I can site many flakey women as
>well, but would appreciate some ideas on how my friend could best
>handle this situation.  Remember her ex.  is a flake, owes everyone,
>and can not be counted on.  The courts seem to allow this kind of
>behavior unless she can prove abuse or drugs in his presence.  All of
>these take finances to fight which she has none..

You may wish to categorize me as a crusader. I am. I've been a children's
advocate for quite a while. I'm not saying that to hold myself up as the
guiding light of god or anything, but only to explain that my opinions are
not those of the average divorced layman. I believe that if you do some
serious research that you'll discover that the opinions I've stated here are
reasonably universal.

Joint custody has its problems, of that there's no doubt. But the actions of
one parent to exclude another have an incredibly high rate of devastation to
the child.

Whatever your relationship is to this situation, I really hope that you
approach it with as much detachment as humanly possible. Even if you're the
mom's dad, brother, or boyfriend. Try to look for the best in all of this. If
you do, and are a source of stability and reason, then you'll be performing a
great service. If not, statistically, you'll be yesterday's history before
two years go by.

My best wishes to both of the parents, and my best of all wishes to the
daughter. Times are rough. But with understanding and love, the negative will
pass. Without it, life can and will be hell. 

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