HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tdn7039@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Thomas Nguyen)
Subject: Re: Some judgements about Tet Offensive 1968 and one painful memory
Reply-To: tdn7039@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:19:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.152904.21466@bnr.ca>, daudo@bcars201.bnr.ca (Dau Do) writes:
>In article <92Nov10.172442est.47525@neat.cs.toronto.edu>, quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>>aec6699@zeus.tamu.edu (CAMPBELL, ANGELA EVETTE) writes:
>>
>>>> 
>>>>What ever the reason, no one could break the tradition of the Tet. All people
>>>>in Vietnam, China and East Asia must stop fighting, quarreling; they often
>>...
>>>Precident:
>>
>>>I'd just like to mention 1789 (within a decade or two), when the Vietnamese
>>>did the same thing during Tet, this time against the Chinese.
>>
>>
>>>Is it traditional to break the same traditions?
>>
>>Angela:
>>
>>     Actually, Nguyen Hue started the offensive 9-10 days before Tet.
>>He vowed to drive the Chinese invaders out of the country in time
>>to celebrate the new year. However, it turned out much better and
>>he was able to finish the Chinese a couple of days earlier than
>>planned!
>
>Really ?! I think you make a mistake.  Nguyen Hue started the offensive
>on the New Year days.  He and his soldiers celebrated the New Years
>9-10 days before Tet.  .... And He was also planning to take back the land
>that the chinese took from us.  I think it's Quang Dong that he wanted to
>take it back.  Too bad :-( , He passed away too early :-(

     Bo*' ca'i te^n  -da^.u ba('p, nha` ngu*o*`i co`n thie^'u mo^.t ti?nh 
nu*~a,  -do' la` ti?nh  Qua?ng Ta^y.  (fa' ti' kho^ng buo^`n ha').

   Nguyen Hue wanted to take back two provinces  Guangdong and Guangxi(sp)
which belonged to Vietnam. Yup! too bad he passed away before achieving
his dream.
Sorry folks, this discussion has ventured  beyond the subject US-VN war.


Please tolerate.

TDN-
From: jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Jeffrey Turner)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Date: 6 Nov 92 23:15:06 GMT
	<1992Nov6.160101.24059@lgc.com> <1992Nov06.213752.14873@bnr.ca>
Organization: College of Engineering, Northeastern University

In article <1992Nov06.213752.14873@bnr.ca> jarthur@bnr.ca (John Thompson) writes:

> Could you, given two aerial photographs of Arlington National Cemetery, one
> taken before the war and one taken yesterday, distinguish those areas filled
> with American servicemen who died in Vietnam?  Were they all evil American
> war planners, or is it possible that many of them were poor ignorant bastards
> whose families had to live with the consequences of their being in the wrong
> place at the wrong time?
>  Regardless of who was right or wrong, there were terrible consequences for
> the people on both sides.  Only a complete asshole would imply otherwise.

	50,000 American dead vs. 3 million Vietnamese dead.  And it
was US policy which contributed much more to the continuation of
the war.  When SV President Diem Bien Phu wanted American troops to
withdraw and to negotiate a settlement, the US backed the coup which
killed him.  So much for SV democracy.  That, along with everything
else SV had to be destroyed to be saved.

> "The strategy, fortunately, did not work."  Fortunately for whom?  You must
>mean fortunately for all right-thinking people.  I commend you on your command
> of the English language, you just need to brush up on your rhetoric.

	Fortunately for the large number of Vietnamese who opposed
the US neo-colonialism.  The US has no right to run the world, and
the Vietnamese certainly showed that.

					--Jeff  Turner
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A725216B2A01A70D@reynolde-mac.ads.orst.edu>
X-Xxdate: Tue, 10 Nov 92 16:20:59 GMT
Organization: OSU Extension Service
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:19:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.015810.9879@emr1.emr.ca> Kim Nguyen,
knguyen@emr1.emr.ca writes:
>No ! No ! Monte.
>
>Not all Vietnamese are like Tuan who may be born here or
too young
>too know what was going on. Two million Vietnamese in
exile around
>the globe and more than 900,000 in US are not testimony
for their
>belief ? Some who came to US in early 1975 would not have
chance to
>know what a communist society was really was. A kid of 5
or 10,
>brought by their parents to US, couldn't know either; but
almost
>those young guys have evolved in political debate in
their community
>or have been depicted by their elders at home. That is
the situation
>you can get.
>
>Don't you know that SOLDIER NEVER DIES ?
>I am sad to know your brother has died.
>D
>D
>D
>I sad to know that your brother has died in action


Kim,
I'm sorry if I gave you or anyone else the impression he
died. He didn't die in action. He did suffer a great deal
from what happened over there just as you and many people
who read this board did. Like you, he lost someone who was
closer to him than anyone in his family. It was a
devastating event that he has never fully recovered from.
He was a grunt in the Delta and around Saigona all the way
over to Tay Ninh where I served (Ed was with the 199th Lt.
Inf. Bde). He served there from Oct. 67 to Oct. 68. It has
been impossible for him to go to the wall because of that.
My hope is that we can go together. It would be easier for
both of us. I was lucky that I didn't lose any close
friends over there. I also had a cousin who was in the 9th
Division and roamed around your neck of the woods. My
cousin, Steve, was wounded twice. He also served from
mid-67 to mid-68. He, too, has had some severe
readjustment problems and understandably so. 

Kim, I appreciate your friendship more than I can say.
That goes for all of the people here. It does benefit
people to talk about these things. I apologize for
becoming so emotional at times. It does nothing to further
the dialog and will try to do better in the future. I will
also try not to post so much to give other people a chance
to speak.

Monte
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A7204D52D301A70D@reynolde-mac.ads.orst.edu>
X-Xxdate: Fri, 6 Nov 92 00:26:58 GMT
Organization: OSU Extension Service
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 00:25:32 GMT

In article
<JTURNER.92Nov6181803@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>
Jeffrey Turner, jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu
writes:
>	50,000 American dead vs. 3 million Vietnamese dead.  And
it
>was US policy which contributed much more to the
continuation of
>the war.  When SV President Diem Bien Phu wanted American
troops to
>withdraw and to negotiate a settlement, the US backed the
coup which
>killed him.  So much for SV democracy.  That, along with
everything
>else SV had to be destroyed to be saved.
>

Let's see now, what did you say the name of the S
Vietnamese president was? Diem Bien Phu? I think you're
confusing that with the location of one of France's
greatest military defeats. I won't tell you the name of
the place--you'll actually have to do some work and look
it up yourself. (That should be a novel experience.) As
for the president's name, does the name Bo Dinh Diem ring
a bell? Good, I knew you'd get it.

I'll be at the moving wall this weekend thinking of you,
Jeffrey. 

Monte Olsen
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: Obviously You missed Joan Boez....
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:40:10 GMT

drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr) writes:

] In article <1992Nov7.194627.23470@wetware.com> drieux@wetware.com (drieux,
] just drieux) writes:
] >We Can Only Hope that David Kohr will take the time to read 'Vietnames
] >Gulag' and notice the Big Difference between the Evil S.Vietnamese Police
] >State where Dissidents could get Access to the 'LiberalMedia' and seek
] >legal appeals.
] >
] >Unlike the Correct Thinking, Forward Looking, Progressive Policies of the
] >Communists, who understood that Dissidents suffered from 'Mental Illness'
] >and needed to be 'cured.'
] 
] We can only hope that "drieux, just drieux" will learn how to use the
] <Shift> key in a competent manner; will realize that no one appreciates his
] (her?) painfully futile attempts at satire and will therefore spare us the
] repeated, failed efforts at sarcasm and stick to plain speech; and will at
] long last reach the trivially obvious conclusion that merely pointing out
] the civil and human rights abuses of one side in a conflict does not
] constitute an endorsement of the policies of the other side.


I think you may have missed the technical points.

Joan at least had the MORAL INTEGRITTY to stand up
and be counted by continuing her opposition to the
FAR GREATER OPPRESSION of the 'liberators.'


] >] Monte
] >] (War mongering baby killer and village burner that I am)
] >
] >Technical Hit there Monte, the term is:
] >
] >WarMongerBabyKiller[tm]
] >
] >A wholely owned, Registered Trademark of
] >
] >WarMongersAreUs[tm] The Leading Edge Purveyors
] >of DeathMerchants Inc. the world over.
] 
] This is precisely the level of humor which the term "sophomoric" was
] invented to describe.


Why Thank you,

I had not wished to 'write above' my audience....

ciao
drieux



-- 
Modern Day Problems:
Hickory, Dickory, Dock - Three Mice Ran up a Clock
The Clock Struct one, 
and the Other Two will be Upgraded In the Next Release.
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 7 Nov 92 21:56:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.160101.24059@lgc.com> tuan@lgc.com (Tuan Nguyen) writes:
>
>Yes, I do.  Some Vietnamese just relish the destruction of their own country 
>-- and their countrymen -- at any costs to satisfy illusions of ideoligical
>beliefs.  
>
>Tuan Nguyen
>

If you refer to the communists and their ideology, I have no arguments.
If the fight were only "illusion of ideological beliefs", why are you here
in the US, a country with so much "evil intentions" toward Vietnam
instead of staying back home to enjoy "freedom" and "independence"?

What HYPOCRISY!



Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: gjw@access.digex.com (Gregory Watson)
Subject: Re: Stockdale at the debate
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 02:50:25 GMT

In article <BALDWIN.92Nov5170257@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil> baldwin@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin) writes:
>He is an OUTSTANDING public speaker, no question about it.  I don't
>know what happened to him in the debates, but informed opinion on this
>subject is universal:  VADM Stockdale is a very accomplished public
>speaker.  I have seen him speak five or six times, most recently in
>1990.

	Agreed.  I saw him as part of a series which included Julian
Bond, David Eisenhower, and Richard Daley.  Stockdale was the best of
the lot.  (Followed closely by Bond.)
>--
> From the catapult of:              |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
>   _,_  J. D. Baldwin, Comp Sci Dept|+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
> _|70|___:::)=}-  U.S. Naval Academy|+| retract it, but also to deny under
> \      /   baldwin@usna.navy.mil   |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

			Gregory Watson
			gjw@access.digex.com
			gjw1@midway.uchicago.edu (if the above fails)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: Re: Diem and Strategic Hamlets
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 00:51:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.212723.25899@emr1.emr.ca> knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim
Nguyen) writes:
> But I tell you that I dream to see Communist Vietnam die.

To anyone reading Kim's postings, this admission should serve as a warning
signal regarding the accuracy and completeness of the historical facts
presented and the biases reflected in the conclusions reached.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie)
Subject: Re: Stockdale is a Bumbling Idiot
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
	<SMITTIE.92Nov9122215@tui.csulb.edu> <BxH5L5.6Jq@cs.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 03:21:11 GMT

>Come on, hurling insults will not make anyone either more humble or
>better-informed.

True enough. My apologies to Monte and to the net. My remark was unnecessary
and contributed nothing to the dialog.

smittie
-- 
                             Tada mono de ha nai
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------GEnie, MCI, AOL:Smittie   All of these accounts except MCI will die on or
smittie@beach.csulb.edu   about Dec 31. UNIX will be forwarded for 2 weeks.
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Tet again
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:27:38 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <BxILK8.GD0@cs.uiuc.edu> drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.014527.27011@anasazi.com> john@anasazi.com writes:
>>I think he is trying to show that the popular myth of the war as an
>>insurgency is incorrect, and he is correct. It was an insurgency before
>>1954, but by the time the US got involved it was subversion and invasion.
>
The fact that the NVA was involved does not mean that it wasn't an
insurgency.  The NLF efforts were quite strong until the late 60's.
>
>>It also shows what a terrible job the media did in informing the public of
>>the true facts of the Tet Offensive.

The key effect of Tet was to show that the representation of the war
to both the politicos _and_ people was wrong in the US.  That the NLF
suffered enormous losses in Tet and did not hold territory is
the wrong measurement.  Most people in the US were being told that
the war was almost over and that there was little resistance.  Tet
proved this to be wrong.  Remember the NBC vs Westmoreland case a
few years back?

If the NLF actually expected to win in the South via Tet, then they
were very naive.  Even if the "people" had been inclined to rise up
and support the NLF, I doubt that would have limited GVN and US forces.
It would be more believable to me that the NVA wanted the NLF physically
routed so that they could take over the effort in the South.

>>-- 
>>John Moore john@anasazi.com
>
>About what "true facts" regarding Tet was the public misinformed?
>-- 
>Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
>Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
>                   "One either has none or not enough."


-- 

		dingo in boulder	(dean@vexcel.com)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 22:12:04 GMT

In article <BxBLA6.8p4@news.orst.edu> Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
writes:
> In article <JTURNER.92Nov6181803@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu> Jeffrey
> Turner, jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu writes:
> >Fortunately for the large number of Vietnamese who opposed the US
> >neo-colonialism.  The US has no right to run the world, and the
> >Vietnamese certainly showed that.
>
>I'll be thinking of the names of my brothers on that wall and how you
>couldn't come up to their boot tops intellectually or otherwise.
>
>Monte

I'll say it again Monte: just because someone disagrees with the policy the
US followed in Vietnam doesn't imply they intend disrespect toward your
fallen comrades.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: tuan@lgc.com (Tuan Nguyen)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: Landmark Graphics Corporation
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:01:01 GMT

In article <92Nov5.230425est.47888@neat.cs.toronto.edu> quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr) writes:
>
>>Yes, it's a shame they didn't appreciate our efforts to brutalize them with
>>free-fire zones, carpet bombing, defoilation, and our support for the South
>>Vietnamese police state.
>>-- 
>
>
>Do you have any opposition to carpet bombing of the jungles where
>the NVA were? 
>  

Yes, I do.  Some Vietnamese just relish the destruction of their own country 
-- and their countrymen -- at any costs to satisfy illusions of ideoligical
beliefs.  In so doing, they fail to realize the strategy of the American war 
planners in Washington to terrorize the Vietnamese populace in the countryside
into withdrawing their support of the Vietcong.  The strategy, fortunately,
did not work.  The Vietcong gained more support and were more convinced of
their cause.  Unfortunately, the bombing and destruction of both North and
South Vietnam continued.  The Americans only have their conscience to answer
to.  The Vietnamese have to live with the consequences of such wholesale
destruction for years to come.

Tuan Nguyen
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 7 Nov 92 16:46:51 GMT

tuan@lgc.com (Tuan Nguyen) writes:

>>
>>Do you have any opposition to carpet bombing of the jungles where
>>the NVA were? 
>>  

>Yes, I do.  Some Vietnamese just relish the destruction of their own country 
>-- and their countrymen -- at any costs to satisfy illusions of ideoligical
>beliefs.  In so doing, they fail to realize the strategy of the American war 
>planners in Washington to terrorize the Vietnamese populace in the countryside


If you can read my question properly, I'm sure that there wasn't
any relish of the destruction of the countryside. What do you propose?
Talk the communist army to death with your liberal rhetoric? Don't
the communists have any responsibility of waging the war in the
first place? Tell me how you can stop an invading army without  
bombs and bullets?
 



Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: aec6699@zeus.tamu.edu (CAMPBELL, ANGELA EVETTE)
Subject: Re: Some judgements about Tet Offensive 1968 and one painful memory
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 22:31:00 GMT

> 
>What ever the reason, no one could break the tradition of the Tet. All people
>in Vietnam, China and East Asia must stop fighting, quarreling; they often
>gather in their older's house to pay tribute to their ancestors and at the
>same time, to conciliate each other.
>Truly, Viet Cong, NVN or communist world never like old traditions; they would 
>start a new era with new traditions which are tainted by communist images. 
>That 
>is a revolutionary tradition which favors naturally cult.
>What the meaning of a day in the year is not important as long as the day
>fits with their aim. So they did it.
> 



Precident:

I'd just like to mention 1789 (within a decade or two), when the Vietnamese
did the same thing during Tet, this time against the Chinese.


Is it traditional to break the same traditions?


Angela

Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 00:27:16 GMT

In article <BxBL6M.8ou@news.orst.edu> Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
writes:
>Diem Bien Phu? I think you're confusing that with the location of one of
>France's greatest military defeats.

"Dien Bien Phu".

>I won't tell you the name of the place--you'll actually have to do some
>work and look it up yourself. (That should be a novel experience.)

Monte, you have an interesting habit of insulting people whose opinions
differ from yours.  This doesn't win points in debates or convince people
with a reasonable grasp of logic however.

>As for the president's name, does the name Bo Dinh Diem ring a bell? 
>Good, I knew you'd get it.

How does "Ngo Dinh Diem" sound to you Monte?

>I'll be at the moving wall this weekend thinking of you,
>Jeffrey. 
>
>Monte Olsen

Monte, allow me to let you in on an amazing little secret: just because
someone opposes or opposed the US intervention in Vietnam doesn't imply
that they wish to dishonor your fallen comrades.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: South VNese support for US intervention (was Re: Stockdale...)
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:37:41 GMT

In article <Bx9E3A.4p2@news.orst.edu> olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu (Monte Olsen)
writes:
>In article <Bx86zC.2Fr@cs.uiuc.edu> David Kohr drk@cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> > Yes, it's a shame they didn't appreciate our efforts to brutalize them
> > with free-fire zones, carpet bombing, defoilation, and our support for
> > the South Vietnamese police state.
>
> I'm not going to honor your insipid final comment with a response. It
> doesn't deserve one.

My point is that a large part of the reason why the US could not garner
support in the South was because US forces were rendering significant
portions of the country uninhabitable.  If you don't want your ideas
questioned, don't post them on USENET.

>I've noticed that people like you tend to resort to name calling and
>shrieking.

"Name calling"?  "Shrieking"?  I challenge you to find a single instance of
either in my postings.

It seems that you are the one who has resorted to name-calling.  ("People
like you tend to resort to name calling and shrieking".)

>Monte
>(War mongering baby killer and village burner that I am)

Again, you've either totally missed my point or are simply denying the
brutality of the tactics used during the US intervention.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam