From: sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley)
Subject: Re: some questions about God(tm)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 04:49:34 GMT

Scott Gibson writes:

>Stephen Buckley writes:
>>
>>  he doesn't need it, he deserves it.  worship is extreme gratitude
>>to the creator for being created. [my definition :) other def'ns exist]

>Okay, then, why does an omnipotent being reward "extreme gratitude", and
>punish its lack?   Why does He even care one iota whether you're grateful
>or not?

  because he created the universe with a sense of moral good inherent.
why because he is just: he rewards obedience and punishes disobedience.
if you don't want god to be just, then don't believe in him.

>>  because we didn't create reality and everything and require of us
>>to acknowledge his creation instead of rebelling and worshipping other
>>things unworthy of worship.

>Oh, so you agree that God _is_ a vengeful, jealous being?  How does
>this jibe with God being "good?"

  god is veangeful and jealous.  he created everything; he has a right to
be as he is being just.  he commands us to not worship other things and
he gives us the free will to choose him [which by the way, i consider
is the meaning of life.  period.]  if you would rather god be good, but
not just, you're free to prefer that.  but god is just, and to be so
requires punishing sin.  without god being just, there is no moral
imperative or precedent in the universe and we're free to do anything
without thought to whether it's good or bad.  again, if you prefer god
isn't just, don't believe in him.

>>  when god kills people in the old testament, he is enacting judgement.

>Do you agree with God when He judges infants to be guilty of "crimes"
>they could not possibly have commited, and orders their slaughter?

  i'm not going to argue this question any more because you will not
accept my appeals to scripture.  beyond that i choose to not judge god's
motives.  i think it was c.s. lewis [who everyone can trash as usual if
they want to] who said something like god's seeming injustice is merely
a source of further wisdom to be sought.  but i suppose you'll blow
that to pieces too.

>>  god has presented an autobiography and a personal manifestation to
>>tell us about himself.  both jesus and god's word live and work today.

>That's funny, some other Christian just told me that the OT is _not_
>the word of God.  So, where's this autobiography?

  the bible is the inspired, inerrant word of god.  many disagree with me
and with all other christians who believe that.  they're free to believe
it is not god's autobiography.  i believe it is.

>>  in this world as it is, we have turned from god and need to turn back
>>to him in our free will.

>This isn't an answer.  God could make himself unmistakenly known to
>all of us.  At that time, we could each decide to become "extremely
>grateful", or not.  Free will, right?  Why doesn't God do this?

  i believe he has, in the bible.  clearly this isn't good enough for you.
i suppose you're getting as tired as this answer as i am in writing it.  :)

>>  because the punishment of sin is death, we have all sinned and god so
>>loved us he sent his only sun to live a perfect life, unworthy of judgement,
>>to bear the punishment for us all.

>Not necessary.  God is omnipotent.  He doesn't need a figurative or
>literal sacrifice of anything (except His own vengeful nature, perhaps)
>in order to expiate our sins.

  see above paragraphs on justice.  

>>  some sects have radically perverted the essential essence of jesus.

>This isn't an answer.  You restated the condition.  _Why_ is this
>so?

  ask the mormons and jehovah's witnesses.  i won't speak for them.

  i understand the questions you have scott,  but doesn't it sound like
we're going in circles?  you ask questions, i answer, you don't accept
my answer, you ask something else, repeat cycle.  i suppose we're both
growing weary of the cycle.