From:  (MJ)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Glock Defense (Re: Glock vs. SIG!?)
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:25:10 GMT


Oh Boy.  Where are all the Glock Champions???  James seems to be frothing
at the mouth in the following article.  He's a SIG nut but seems to have a
hidden lust for Glocks.  He also has a few toys on his list of things to
buy but James can afford it after spending all his money on his SIGs.  I
don't like to knock other's tastes in guns but I must defend some of the
things James has stated (of course always in his humble opinion.

#In article <C1FDD9.3Bp@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>, >callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) wrote:
# 
## In article <9301250428.AA28006@zippy.cs.UMD.EDU> kgk@martigny.ai.mit.edu >#(Kleanthes Koniaris) writes:
 
# #I don't
# #want to hear "my Sig looks so pleasing that I stare at it all day, but
# #the Glock is ugly that I recoil in horror, therefore the Sig is
# #better."
# 
# The Glock is downright uncomfortable in my hand.
# As a matter of fact, I've found that shooting 1300fps/900ft-lb. .44Magnum
# through my S&W Model 29 is more comfortable than shooting a Glock 9mm 

This is impossible to comprend.  I've owned a 6" and own a 4" M29.  I have
a M23 and M20 Glock.  Glocks are soft shooters.  James is the first person
I have heard of who believes differently.
 
# #In fact, there seem to reasons to suspect that the Glock is *better*
# #built: I have heard that the Sig has welding, rivets, etc.; the Glock
# #has none.  
# 
# Rivets? Where? I have yet to see any rivets on my P226. If you mean
# that parts are held on by pins which have to de drifted out for complete
# disassembly, then, yeah, it's got 'em, just like any other auto. 
# And as far as welds, so what? it has one weld, but if you don't know
# where it is, I'll bet you can't find it. (Hell, I know where it is,
# and it's not all that east to tell where it is.)
# And so what if it's welded? What's that got to do with it? My dad
# and grandfather have been welding farm implements for better than 
# 50 years, and they've _never_ had a weld break. (Things have
# broken at other places, but never on or near a weld.) I would
# assume that, given the quality of the gun, SIG-Sauer has at least
# as good of a quality-control program as my dad and gradndfather.

It seems you've compared your SIG to farm equipment...interesting.  I'm a
mechanical engineer by education and career.  If the correct welding is
used that's fine but it must done properly and inspected properly.  When
done right, it can be as good as if machined from bar stock.  If done
wrong,  who knows???? Safety, Life of Gun etc.

# #Of course, the Glock does have sloppy tooling marks, but the
# #actual method of construction seems superior.  
# 
# Not really. The actual metalworking of the SIG is superior--the fit
# and finish is a big part of that.

The truth is both designs employ cost cutting fabrication methods.  The use
of sheet metal and welding in the SIG should make it very affordable but
that IS NOT THE CASE.  It's my guess SIG has a huge mark up over factory
cost or the Swiss labor costs are huge.

# #I have heard that the
# #Sig coatings tend to wear, and that the weapon is easily prone to
# #rust.  (In a Glock?  Never!)
# 
# If you're really worried about it, pay the $20-50 to get it
# Parkerized, or buy the nickel finish SIG. It won't rust or
# wear either. (Besides...you can get a SIG with a nickel slide
# on a black frame--a truly cool-looking option :-)

Sure why not spend another $50 on a gun that just set you back $700+.
 
# #So, Sig owners, please be so kind as to post *why* the Sig is so good,
# #and please be so kind, if possible, as to *compare* to the Glock.
# 
# Advantages of the SIG:
# 	Superior Accuracy (hits near point-of-aim at 50m; groups
# 				of slightly more than 2" are not
# 				unheard of.)

Let me understand this.  Does it hit the point of aim at 50m AND group 2"
at 50m?  How many shots are in your group?  I've never owned a SIG but have
shot them.  I've shot alot of handguns and many for 25yd 5 shot groups. 
I've read alot of test articles on the SIGs.
In short,  I wouldn't believe 2" at 25m.

# 	Superior ergonomics (Of course, that's an advantage SIG has over
# 				all combat autos, IMHO.)

This can't be judged.  I like the ergonomics of the Glock.  To all those
out there considering SIG/Glock handle them and shoot them.

#  Advantages SIG over Glock
# 	Superior reliability (After I cleaned the packing grease off
# 				my P226, I've had a total of three jams, 
# 				and those were on empty cases during a
# 				feeding test (it fed the other 147 
# 				flawlessly).) The SIG is much less
# 				less prone to jams due to limp-wristing,
# 				or other grip-related jams, than the
# 				Glock. My only experience with Glocks
# 				have been with range guns, but the SIG
# 				range guns in similar condition had none
# 				of the problems of the Glocks.)

I have not had any reliability problems with my Glocks and have seen many
other Glocks perform flawlessly in competition.

#  Advantages SIG over Glock
# 	DA/SA trigger. (I personally like the ability to shoot SA, you
# 				may not.)

You'll either love the Glock trigger or hate it.

#  Glock
#  Disadvantages:
#
# 	Accuracy (suffers due to rifling design)

What!!!???? NOT!  I've read that the Glock rifling doesn't like lead
bullets and this is true with my M23 but not M20.  They both shoot jacketed
bullets very well.  The M20 shoots 2.5" at 25yds with most factory loads. 
The M23 stays under 3" with Silvertips and HydraShoks.

# Overly tight chamber--can fail to feed reloads and/or rounds which
# 				are beyond spec.

This is news to me.

I think the following is the bottom line between the two guns:

1)  Many will not be able to get by the cost of the SIG.
2)  Many will not get by the trigger of the Glock.
3)  Many will not get by the looks of the Glock.

Would I own SIG?  First, I have never and will never own a 9mm.  SIG's .40
is just out and is the only one I would consider.  If the price came down
about $150 I would consider it even more.  But alas, I am a lefty and the
SIG sucks for a lefty.

MJ

[As if you didn't already know, my opinions are my own and not my
company's.]