From: jeffjc@cs.mcgill.ca (Jeffrey CHANCE)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda
Date: 16 Aug 92 18:18:14 GMT
Organization: ----


This is an extract from the book "The Avatars and the Masters" in
which Sri Chinmoy answers questions about several great masters.

BTW I will be away until Sept. so I will be unable to respond to
any follow-ups. 

Also, Sri Chinmoy will be offering a free public Peace Concert
sponsored by the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan (USA), in Manhattan on
Sat. August 22 at 7:30 pm, Town Hall 123 W. 43rd St. Admission
is free but reservations are necessary by calling 718-523-2680
(Days) or 718-297-8031 (Nights).

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On the subject of this post, I find the relationship between
Ramakrishna and Vivekananda a very significant and inspiring
one, and a learning tool or help of sorts for those who 
follow a bhaktic Guru-disciple path. Everytime I read about
Vivekananda's life history I always find myself intensely
interested.

----------


SRI RAMAKRISHNA AND SWAMI VIVEKANANDA


Question: Who was Ramakrishna?

SC: Ramakrishna is the child of Mother Kali, the child of the
Divine Mother, who is compassion and love. First he came to Mother
Kali, the cosmic Mother, then he became the Mother Herself.


Question: A liberated soul has light to a certain extent. Now to
please the Supreme, if he enters into the world, is there still the
possibility of falling?

SC: Certainly, certainly.


Question: So if he feels that he would like to fulfil the Supreme
by going into the world, by manifesting, then there is a danger of
his losing the light?


SC: Certainly there is. Sri Ramakrishna brought down another soul
as powerful as Vivekananda's, exactly of the same standard, but he
never saw that person on earth. Such a great spiritual Master
brought down two liberated souls- Vivekananda and another. But the
other one fell. Ignorance covered him, and he never came to his
Master. Ignorance enveloped that particular soul to such an extent
that Ramakrishna could not find him. 


Question: Do you want your disciples to risk the possibility of
that kind of experience?

SC: First of all, do I have any liberated souls among my disciples?
I want my disciples to meditate here and then to go and work
divinely. Aspire and manifest. They both go together. While you are
manifesting, you are aspiring; manifestation itself is a form of
aspiration. You cannot separate manifestation from aspiration.
While you are manifesting anything, you are aspiring for further
knowledge, for further light, for further wisdom.


Question: If Ramakrishna wanted to bring a soul down, why couldn't
he have brought the second one closer to him so that it was under
his influence?

SC: Sri Ramakrishna did not stay on earth for a long time. He was
given limited time. Had he stayed on earth for eight more years, he
could have developed somebody else into Vivekananda's calibre, if
he wanted to. But he knew his time limit. Even those who came to
him, came only toward the end of his life. They got hardly six or
seven years to meditate with him before he left. Even his closest
disciples, those who were among that small group, were with him for
a very short time.


Question: When that lost soul first came down, couldn't he have
brought it closer to him, so that it would have been within the
circle where he was?

SC: But when he himself came, he still had to realise God. He still
had to turn a few pages. I was realised in a previous incarnation.
Yet I had to work so many years to revise the book, especially
during the first three or four years. Twenty years it took me to
completely revise that particular book of God-realisation. It takes
many years. Ramakrishna was a liberated soul in his previous
incarnation. But for him to realise Mother Kali took many years. He
did not realise Kali all of a sudden. But once he realised God,
then in the two other forms- the Muslim form and the Christian
form- he again realised God very easily.

But when it is a matter of getting someone for manifestation on
earth, it is really difficult. to get someone like Vivekananda is
most difficult. If Vivekananda had not come to the West, who would
have manifested Ramakrishna? Nobody! Realisation itself is so
difficult, but Ramakrishna did it. He was the body; but for
manifestation we also need arms and legs. It is like a tree; just
a trunk is not enough. The branches are also necessary. If there
are no branches, then nobody will call it a tree.


Question: Why didn't Ramakrishna put the exceptional souls that he
brought down into families where he could keep an eye on them?

SC: He had confidence that he would find them. Ramakrishna was so
strict in accepting disciples. First he used to see occultly, then
he used to read the palm and the forehead, and then he used to look
into their eyes. He used to accept disciples only after examining
them in so many ways. He was not satisfied with seeing only their
souls. I scold my disciples when they enjoy ignorance, but I don't
insult them in public. Ramakrishna used to insult people in front
of everyone. 


Question: Wouldn't divine Grace at least bring the two souls in
contact?

SC: Divine Grace can do everything. But at the same time ignorance
is also powerful. Divine Grace is omnipotent, but if one
consciously likes ignorance, then the Grace does not force anyone.
Smoking is very bad. Suppose someone consciously wants to smoke for
a few days. He says that after such and such a date he will give up
smoking. But he does not know what may happen during that period.
That date may be tomorrow or it may be twenty years later. Then,
during those twenty years all his divine possibilities may be lost.
In India there are many people who say that spirituality is not
meant for them right now. They say: "First let us enjoy the world.
After we have lived a long life, then we will meditate." But long
before they are ready to meditate, perhaps they will pass away. In
this way, ignorance captures us. Then the divine Grace just says,
"All right. If he cares so much for ignorance, let him enjoy it."


Question: You once told us that there was a man who failed to
realise God at the last moment because his Guru did not help him to
overcome his doubt. If the man's Guru had been powerful enough,
could the Guru have helped the man at that point?

SC: The Guru was powerful enough. He was alive at that time, but
unfortunately the man had had a quarrel with his Guru. The Guru was
angry with him; so the Guru did not help him. But he could have
done it. If the seeker had not quarrelled with his Guru, he would
definitely have realised God.

Sri Ramakrishna gave everything to Vivekananda, but after the
Master had left the body, Vivekananda wanted to go to Pahari Baba
so many times for further initiation. Ramakrishna, the great
Avatar, had initiated him and given everything to him, and then
Vivekananda wanted to go to Pahari Baba to get further initiation.
So this is how doubt can assail even a great seeker like
Vivekananda. After Sri Ramakrishna's death, Vivekananda went
fifteen or sixteen times to Pahari Baba while making up his mind
about getting initiation from him. Then finally Ramakrishna
appeared to him with a sorrowful face and said, "Don't go, don't
go."

Vivekananda's disciples will say that he had a big heart and he
wanted to work for humanity, but he needed better health. That is
why he wanted to go to an occultist like Pahari Baba. But real
seekers will simply say that if Ramakrishna had wanted him to work
on earth for the earth-consciousness, would not Ramakrishna have
cured him of his illness? This kind of sickness is nothing for a
spiritual figure like Ramakrishna to cure, if he wants to.
Vivekananda's time had come; he had played his role.

Krishna was a great Avatar. But a hunter's arrow struck him and
killed him. But in the Kurukshetra battle, how many weapons the
Kauravas used to try to kill Krishna. He was killing everybody with
his Sudarshana, his golden disc. He had the power to avoid death if
he wanted to. But Krishna knew that he was just playing a game.
When his role was over, he allowed the hunter's arrow to kill him.

Vivekananda was also a spiritual hero. He had finished his role,
but his vital wanted to stay on earth, so he went to Pahari Baba
even while Sarada Devi was still alive. Even Vivekananda suffered
from tremendous doubt. At the last moment, while Ramakrishna was
leaving the body, Vivekananda was still doubting him. Then
Ramakrishna had to say, "He who is Rama, he who is Krishna, in one
form is Ramakrishna." At that moment and many previous times also,
Ramakrishna gave Vivekananda so many higher experiences. He got
everything from Ramakrishna. When Vivekananda's devotion came to
the fore, he said that from a grain of sand Sri Ramakrishna could
make thousands of Vivekanandas. If he had maintained that kind of
faith, he would never have gone to Pahari Baba, who was infinitely
inferior to Sri Ramakrishna. But this is what doubt can do. Doubt
can capture even a hero like Vivekananda. Doubt has the power to
turn a lion into a house cat.