Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:35:25 +0000


> +From         : cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen)
> +Subject      : Re: Conversion Question
> 
> In article <92315.121602YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> wr
ites:
> > ... There would still remain the problema-
> >tical situation of Conservative clergy who themselves do not accept all
> >of Torah, Written and ORAL (emphasis added),
> > as divinely-authored and therefore binding,
> 
> That would have been news to the sages.  Some oral halachot were
> given to Moses on Sinai, but surely not the entire Gemara,
> Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, etc!  That must not be what you mean.

Possibly you have misunderstood the nature of the works to which you
have referred. Certainly, the whole of the oral Torah was given by
God to Moshe at Har Sinai. These laws were handed down by word of
mouth until the time of the Mishnah, although the oral tradition
never actually died out and I have heard that certain laws were never
written down and were still being passed on even in the time of the
Vilna Gaon.

What is contained in the Mishnah and Gemarah are these laws plus
discussions thereof and also Gezeros (decrees) of the Rabbis to build
a "fence" around the Torah. The authority for these Gezeros comes
from the Torah and I believe that the Rambam held that to transgress
a Rabbinical law is to transgress a Torah law.

The Rambam's Mishnah Torah and the Shulchan Aruch are merely
codifications of the various laws.

> I think Orthodox should accept Conservative conversions,
> marriages, and divorces on the basis of darchay shalom.  The O
> position on this is not tenable for the long term, because it is
> impossible to demonstrate that some ancestor did not become Jewish
> by a C conversion.  Just because one is brought up O does not mean
> that all of ones ancestors back to some ancient time (when?
> Jacob?  But Joseph's wife was Egyptian!)  were kosher.  By
> emphasizing these issues they cause pain and are mean spirited,
> but the basic fact remains:  there is no way to demonstrate "pure
> blood" back to Abraham!  Correct me if I am wrong, but the O
> halacha does not put a statute of limitations on this.  

In this day and age of computers and records of all sorts being kept,
I'm sure that marriages, conversions and divorces are well documented
and it would not be difficult to ascertain whether or not someone's
conversion was valid. I know, for instance, that my conversion
through the London Beis Din some 30 odd years ago (when I was 8 years
old - I converted with my mother and brother) is kept on file at the
Beis Din because when I got married in Schenectady N.Y. the Beis Din
wrote to the Rabbi of the Shul to confirm the conversion.

As to conversions, etc. in the past, really the problem has only
arisen in recent years (ie. within the past 100 years or so, or maybe
even less).

> O does not have to back down on halacha here to bring peace (and
> Moshiach?).  They merely have to decide to not press the issue.

Which is the same as backing down.

> Just as they do not stone a sabbath breaker to death
> (hopefully!) they should not destroy a persons sole by kicking
> out an observant member of the Jewish community because of what
> they regard as an unkosher conversion.

I think we have to be quite clear here on the fact that if a
conversion is regarded as invalid (unkosher is not really the right
word) then the person is not Jewish. Obviously, if the person
sincerely wishes to remain within the Jewish fold then his or her
path to a valid conversion will be made easier because the person has
been practising as a Jew. There was a guy in my Yeshivah who was from
Argentina. During his stay at the Yeshivah he discovered that he
wasn't actually Jewish (I'm not certain as to the circumstances as to
why this was so), but he was converted through an Orthodox Beis Din
without any hassle.


> I think Rambam had the right point of view on this.  He states
> that one should not investigate a family to see if they are
> Jewish if they claim so.  Their claim should be accepted unless
> they are mean-spirited, in which case the presumption is that
> they are not Jewish!

This may have been the case in the Rambam's day when such things as
Conservative and Reform didn't exist. But today, when I believe that
the majority of the Jews in the U.S. belong to one or other of these
movements, I don't think that one can so easily make such assumptions
as to a person's Jewishness, especially, as I have said above, when
it is fairly easy to check up on these things.

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Stephen (Yisroel) Phillips      Tel: 44-895-442141
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish