From: ADMN8686@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Muslims "Slaughter Their Own People"
Date: 31 Aug 92 06:35:06 GMT
 <1992Aug27.000645.15145@husc3.harvard.edu>
 <92240.212000ADMN8686@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
 <1992Aug30.195517.15234@husc3.harvard.edu>
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute

In article <1992Aug30.195517.15234@husc3.harvard.edu>,
stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) says:
>
>Mr. Blazic's representative wrote a big article.

Actually, Milan, I'm not his representative - I'm a Canadian-Croat who
who has the time and feels it is important to show readers that
your postings are largely filled with grossly inaccurate facts and
conclusions.


>Certain parts
>deserved a response.  I erased all parts where Mr. Grgic has openly
>shown his ignorance of the situation and geography, ...

You erased all parts that contained factual and indisputable information
such as cities that have been bombed by the Serbian agressors. You erased
those parts and you they are not deserving of a response from you because
there is no way to answer for the deaths of the thousands of Muslims that
the Serbian agressors have caused.

And it is your right to believe that I am ignorant of the situation (although
you erased everything that you could not counter as well), but my
geographical knowledge is quite accurate; especially in regards to which side
currently control which areas.

>...his lack of reading
>comprehension ( an UN report by their military personal, not journalists ),

Actually, I believe that my reading comprehension is quite good - could it
be that you didn't want to cite certain passsages from my posting because
there was no disputing what I wrote? I believe that was the case - just like
you deleted all parts where I proved your drivel to be just that.

>...  his naivete in quoting Islamic press( cluster bombs,
>napalm ) and things that have been explained earlier.

There is, of course, not anything that the 'Islamic Press' could write which
would suit your taste buds. And it is sad that you are trying to dispute the
fact that *cluster bombs and napalm is being used.*

They do exist. Both. The Yugoslav army used cluster bombs in many places
when they were attacking Croatia. I had the opportunity to see them (the
cluster bombs) with my own eyes, after the attack had taken place. I was
there and I saw them. Can you grasp that? And if they were used over and
over again in Croatia, why would the same attackers not use them in Bosnia?

>
>In article <92240.212000ADMN8686@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> <ADMN8686@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
>Tom Grgic writes:
>
>>Your conclusion that the Bosnian government is criminal is a stupid
>>one and bears no connection to any event.
>>
>
>So, Mr. Tom Grgic thinks that it is OK to lure hungry loyal citizens ( or
>disloyal to that matter ) out from shelters by offering bread, bring
>cameras and kill them by a blast ( UN Report )?  Nice.  I must admit
>that Izetbegovic government gave a new meaning to the word criminal.

Again you are taking my words and twisting them around. You are a jerk
for doing so. *I* attempted to question the few reports which claimed
that Muslims are killing their own people, in contrast to the dozens
of reports (and evidence) showing clear Serbian culpability. I *did not*
express sympathy for self-sacrifice of any kind. *You* instead turned that
into fact, attempting to give my 'OK' on the tactic, and that is why you are
a jerk. The Serbs are responsible for the vast majority of all attrocities
occurring in Bosnia, you know it, and that's why you defend it all.

>I do not think that there is any precedence to this event in history.
>Croats staged a bombardment in Banski Dvori, but they avoided having anyone
>injured ( they even carefully lowered a big chandellier onto the middle of
>the conference table without a scratch).

This has absolutely nothing to do with the events taking place in Bosnia.
Your conclusion again, is unprovable. It may have been like that, it may
not have. You have again taken rumour and turned it into fact. It seems
to be a fond tactic of yours.

>>Later Dude and sweet dreams,
>>
>>Tom Grgic
>>
>>P.S. - You're fighting a losing battle, and deep down you know it.
>>
>
>Well, Mr. Grgic , some people do not use the deep ( under the clothes ?) down
>thing for thinking :).

Hunh? And you claim I have a lack of comprehension problem? If your insult is
in regards to a particular organ, you've reached an all-time low in our
insult hurling match - the readers can judge for themselves.

>One should use "res gestae" to judge things.  And one could arrive to the
>simple conclusion that both Croats and Serbs won this war.  They have
>made a viable, connected, ethnical territories, which would in one moment
>become a single state.  They have lost some ethnical territories, but they
>gained other.

Exactly what territories have the Serbs lost, Mr. Stojanovic? I would really
be interested in seeing a list of those areas. And while you're talking about
lost and gained territories (even though Croats aren't a major factor in
Bosnia), why don't you tell us what is it that the Muslims have gained in
Bosnia? What have the Serbs lost in Bosnia?

As for your thoughts on grabbed territories becoming states, especially those
in Croatia, you should listen to what those who have recognized the present
states have to say about forceful border shifts!

> And no screaming, chip shots, and childish posting of the
>present day articles from NYT to brand Serbs as aggressors would change this

It would have to childish to post from the NYT, would it? I am sure it
is all based on chip(?) shots, lies, and childish reporting. The readers can
attest to the NYT being known for this, can't they?

>( this is equally intelligent as trying to prove that North Vietnam was
>an aggressor in the war against South Vietnam, by posting articles
>from 1960-1970 published in some American papers ).

An unfair comparison.

>What could be done, and
>what is done, effectively, is that Serbian image, carefully made through
>more that a century of the just ( well, except Serbian-Bulgarian war
>in 1881 ), and glorious fight for freedom ( and democracy, I would add)
>is being ruined.

It is being ruined by the last imperialist regime in Europe. It is being
ruined by Milosevic. It is being ruined by concentration camps. It is
being ruined by air attacks by Serbian aircrafts. Serbia's image, whatever
it may have previuously been, is being ruined by it's actions now. Nobody
is questioning their status in the past, but its present actions cannot in any
way be justified. It is not bad press that is ruining Serbia's glorious
fight for freedom (sic!) (like in Kosovo, ;-) ), but Serbia's inhumane
campaign of ethnic cleansing and killing unseen in Europe since WWII.

> And that is what I am trying to stop, by posting rare
>and counter to the popular and simplifistic opinion, articles, like the

You are trying to justify calculated killings by Serb attackers. And you are a
callous individual for doing so. It's not simplistic opinion that you're
trying to counter, but justification for Serbian actions.


> [further drivel deleted]

As for the 3rd rate Toronto journalist, he has been in ex-Yu now for over
two years, and was quite favourable towards the Serbs initially. Now he
writes differently. That was the case with NYT's Sudetic and Burns. And all
of them were based in Belgrade. Isn't that where the truth lies, according to
you, Milan?

I don't know who originally wrote that the Muslims are bombing their own
people, but it seems to me that such a claim can only be verified and written
by one who was beside the perpetrator of the crime. And that simply is not
and has not been the case in the thousands of such incidents that have
happenned. Weight things out: thousands vs. a few.

>Milan N. Stojanovic

Later Dude,

Tom Grgic

P.S. - Aren't there any Bosnians/Muslims out there to jump in?