HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 19 Dec 1992 00:23:37 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
> Unless you actually have a reference in the Constitution where it
> mandates the separation of queerness and state, and court decisions
> that give queer property tax exemptions and special privileges, this is
> simply refusing to see the point.  

If that's how you want to see it...as for the seperation of church and 
state, from my understanding, the way you are trying to use it is not
as it was intended. 

> I might as easily say that on
> heterosexual property they can say whatever they want, but heterosexual
> propaganda has no place in secular public education.

Yes, and that would be an equally valid thing to say.  See the point? 

> You claim to want a reasonable discussion.  Some evidence for this claim
> would be welcome.

Now how many times have I heard this...along with claims that I have a hidden 
agenda, and now veiled threats by email...do you really want people to say
"OK, sure, I accept whatever you say", even if they aren't convinced?  If that's
what you want, let me know...or if you don;t think I want a reasonable discussion,
just save your energy and dont bother replying to me.  I'm not twisting your
arm.  I *don't* want to feel like I'm forcing you to waste your time on
another bigoted 'phobe...

Walter Smith

Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: quilty@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Humberto Humbertoldi)
Subject: Re: QUEER THEORY
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:07:37 GMT

In article <Bz81Fw.HBB@acsu.buffalo.edu> v108jqur@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (ANTHONY PAUL AVERY) writes:
>Hi everyone, I am a graduate student at the State University of New York
>at Buffalo (UB) in American Studies and I am interested in doing some
>research and possibly my thesis on QUEER THEORY or some aspect of it.
>I am requesting help from those of you who have information or know 
>where I can find information (i.e., secondary sources, etc.). Thanks
>a lot.

Sorry to make a minor violation of netiquette, but I've tried emailing
Anthony Paul Avery FOUR times and his email keeps bouncing.
	Anthony, I have some information which you may find quite
interesting, re. a journal I'm involved in launching in the area you
inquire about.  Email me with a way to contact you.
	To all netters: The aforsaid journal is to be called Q-tique.
An electronic flyer for it hasn't yet been prepared, but a paper one
has -- I'll put anyone who's interested on a snail-mail list about
this; plus I'll be making a real announcement to the net sometime
soon. 
-- 
    _/_/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY: Postmodern Enterprises _/_/_/ 
   _/_/      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  _/_/ 
  _/_/  The opinions expressed here must be those of my employer...     _/_/ 
 _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Surely you don't think that *I* believe them!  _/_/
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:15:55 EST
From: The Dreamer <ASG102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: The Analogy Betwixt Gays & Blacks (Re: Children in Same-gender Fam
Distribution: usa
 <1gnskcINN6ac@hp-col.col.hp.com>


In article <1gnskcINN6ac@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
says:
>
>What *is* the position of homosexuals and the gay-rights movement?
>If there is such a correlation between blacks and gays, should gays
>have minority status?  Should they have quotas?  Why/why not?  If not,
>why should blacks have it, and gays not?

     First of all, hiring quotas are illegal except in the case of adverse
impact (ex. an entirely white company).  In this case, the company will be
oredered by a court to hire minorities to even the balance.
     What we ask for is that, all other things considered, we have the same
chance as anyone else to be hired.
     The analogy between Blacks and Queer people is made because both groups
are hated to the point of violence.  I am not saying that there hasn't been
cases of Jewish or Hispanic or Chineese people being beaten for what they are,
but in the USA, the situation is more pronounced with Blacks and Queer people.

     This is what I would like to see:
1. Bob goes to Acme Inc. to get a job as an accountant.  Bob has a wife
   "Chirs" and no children.  Bob has never looked at another man in his
   life and is completely happy being heterosexual.  Bob got his college
   degree from Yale.  His GPA was a 3.0.  He was involved in many activities
   at Yale including a fraternity and the college Democrats.

2. Rob goes to Acme Inc. to get a job as an accountant.  Rob has a husband
   "Chris" and no children.  Rob has never looked at a woman in his life
   and is completely happy being homosexual.  Rob got his college degree
   from Yale.  His GPA was a 3.4.  He was involved in many activities
   at Yale including a fraternity and the college Democrats.

As things stand now, a company in Colorado could pick Bob over Rob simply on
the basis of Rob's attraction to men which has NOTHING to do with his
performance as an accountant for Acme Inc.

Note: I intentionally gave Rob a higher GPA to imply that Rob is the better
of the two candidates.  It would be stupid for Acme Inc. to hire Bob and
not Rob.  It just doesn't make much business sense.

     Love and Peace and Logic,
           -The Dreamer-
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Subject: Re: Gays In The News
Reply-To: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:15:39 GMT


In a previous article, sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Steve Russell) says:

>I't seems like many political issues concerning homosexuals have cropped
>up in the news over the past several months.
>
>It is kind of interesting.  Before, it seemed homosexuals were almost
>invisible.  Now, if you are news junkie like myself, they seem to
>be LITERALLY everywhere:)!
>
>SFJR
>

Kinda makes you hopeful about the phrase, "The GAY 90's", don't it!!

:-)

-- 
*...your Friendly Neighborhood Atheist  /\/\   HATE IS NOT A  *         
*                    Kelley L. Miller  / /  \  FAMILY VALUE   *            
*                  ae642@yfn.ysu.edu  / /____\                *  
*     GIGO: Gospel In--Garbage Out   /______\                 *
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 18 Dec 92 00:06:37 GMT
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1gq3hrINNerp@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> > Why are they trying to prevent this information from getting out?    What's
|> > their motive?
|> 
|> The information that there are families with 2 parents of the same
|> gender, or that the 2 parents of the same gender sleep together?

My parents slept in the same bedroom.   I imagine that most people's
do.

But this raises a question.    I'd like Mr Smith to get a lot more
specific about what this famous book actually *says*.   Not "what
someone told me", "what my pastor says", but what the book actually
has in it.

With reference, please.

jon.
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 18 Dec 1992 16:04:47 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
> Pardon me?   Can it be possible that you think that this argument depends
> on whether Jon Livesey in particular is a schoolteacher?

Yeah, you bet.  If you're not a teacher, and you're going around 
telling other people's kids what is right and wrong, you're WAY out 
of line.  

> In case you think that, no it doesn't.   Just go through, adding "were
> I their teacher" after each place where I wrote "I".

Oh, it was one of those *hypothetical* thingies..sometimes hypotheticals
aren't very useful.  

Walter
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 13 Dec 92 04:18:19 GMT
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1gdrgoINN9dp@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
|> 
|> Let me look at this from another angle; do we have to teach that it
|> is OK/normal/natural/<insert your choice of words>, or can it be 
|> viewed as not OK/normal/natural/<insert your choice of words>,
|> as long as we are taught to respect a person's right to be different
|> and unique without being persecuted for it? 

I sometimes wonder if people like Mr Smith were born yesterday.

Less than fifty years ago, the feds had to send in the *troops*
to try to convince people that living, working and being educated
alongside black Americans was "OK/normal/natural/<insert your 
choice of words>".

And don't tell me that that was more obviously "right" than Gay
issues, because I've lived and worked in the South, and I've heard
exactly the same kinds of arguments used against American blacks
as bigots currently use against Gays: that they were sexually 
promiscuous, sexually agressive, prone to raping people, especially
white people, prone to pass on various diseases,.......

You name it, no matter how false or nonsensical, and American blacks
were at one time accused of it.   The Black struggle for civil
rights was not merely a struggle for legal equality.   The black 
struggle was also a struggle to be seen as a collection of ordinary, 
everyday human beings.

|> Do we have to believe what you want us to believe as long as 
|> differences are tolerated, 
|> or must our thoughts be 'fixed' to view homosexuality as OK? 

Who says that differences are tolerated?   There are legal 
penalties against Gays in several states, there is still a bar
against serving in the military, there are still problems with
security clearances, there are still legal obstacles to setting 
up Gay households, companies can still cancel health insurance
on discovering that someone is HIV positive.

When I hear someone like Mr Smith trying to slip into his
postings the supposition that "differences are tolerated" I
seem to hear my white Atlanta friends saying that American blacks
should be happy "now that they are equal".

jon.

PS: I removed soc.motss from the followup.
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:7921 talk.politics.mideast:23315
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: stupid propaganda
Date: 13 Dec 1992 03:03:59 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1992Dec12.183520.13969@wam.umd.edu>, aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>
>	[of a proposed regulation]
>
> It is the right of any country to protect its citizens. 
> This is done as a rutine on any countryt of the world, or at least, \
> most of them.

Great.   Now all you have to do is to establish two things.

One: that excluding HIV positive immigrants "protects" anyone.

Two: if one country does something, that makes it right for other
	countries to do the same thing.

jon.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: zbdm0c@curry.trc.amoco.com (Brian D. Moe)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 18 Dec 92 21:46:09 GMT
Reply-To: bmoe@trc.amoco.com
Organization: Amoco Production Research


In article <1gssqvINNgrq@hp-col.col.hp.com> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>> Pardon me?   Can it be possible that you think that this argument depends
>> on whether Jon Livesey in particular is a schoolteacher?
>  [...]
>> In case you think that, no it doesn't.   Just go through, adding "were
>> I their teacher" after each place where I wrote "I".
>
> Oh, it was one of those *hypothetical* thingies..sometimes hypotheticals
> aren't very useful.  


And sometimes people just explode.

Is this one of those sometimes?  I don't think so.


--
Brian Moe                                     Amoco Production Company
bmoe@trc.amoco.com                               Tulsa Research Center
(918) 660-3877                         P.O. Box 3385 / Tulsa, OK 74102
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: freier@mail.physics.utah.edu (rodney james freier)
Subject: Re: God I hate you all
Organization: University of Utah - Physics Department
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 20:56:28 GMT

In article <16DEC199211064781@tirith.carleton.edu>, lambertn@tirith.carleton.edu (Alas, my love, you do me wrong...) writes:
|> rmcgrath@unix1.tcd.ie (robert patrick mcgrath) writes:

|> >A hot pokerup the ass is the order of the day!!
|> 
|> You want fries with that? 
|> 

 Beautiful.  Scores:  10.0   10.0  9.3  10.0   10.0    10.0

(The French judge is still upset that the Canadian judge keeps spurning 
his advances.)


Rod
From: steve.connelly@synapse.org (Steve Connelly) 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: NON-REPRODUCTIVE SEX...
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:41:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SYNAPSE BBS - GATINEAU, QUEBEC - 819-561-4321
Reply-To: steve.connelly@synapse.org (Steve Connelly) 

HOMOPHOBES....read THIS!

SD>The next time you hear the argument that homosexual sex means a death
SD>sentence for the human race because it's not procreative, consider this
SD>info I just received from the Zero Population Growth_ foundation, a
SD>Washington DC group committed to ending overpopulation.


SD>"In the seconds it takes you to read this sentence, 24 people will be
SD>added to the Earth's population.

SD>Before you've finished this letter, that number will reach 1000.  Within
SD>an hour...11,000.  By day's end...260,000.

SD>Before you go to bed two nights from now, the net growth in human
SD>numbers will be enough to fill a city the size of San Francisco.

SD>It took four million years for humanity to reach the 2 billion mark.
SD>Only 30 years to add a third billion.  And now we;re increasing by 95
SD>million every single year.

SD>No wonder they call it the human race."


SD>Sam's note:  to be fair, I'd question if they take into account the
SD>death rates, epecifically the infant mortality rate.  Still, their point
SD>is valid:  overpopulation is more of a problem than non-procreation.
SD>---
SD> . RNet 1.08I:ILink: Invention Factory BBS . New York . NY . 212 274-8110
---
 . DeLuxe. 1.21 #777sa . Obstacle of progress is the illussion of knowledge
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 16:29:51 EST
From: <SXJ112@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: WHY?
 <BzGpKC.8x8@rice.edu> <1gu3qiINN8bs@life.ai.mit.edu>

I just wanted to thank everyone, partic asg102 ( i know,but im too beat to
run a user id), from PSU who replied so eloquently to the original posting
of "why?" Too often, PSU deserves its very bad reputation for confusing
"diversity acceptance" with enforcing censorship. It is extremely fortunate
that this net has not been excluded by sysadmin and there are those voices who
speak for justice w/ a Penn State address to show the world we are not all
horrible people.
By the way, for the original poster, when my mother,sister and I attend this
Christmas' midnight mass, we will do so w/ a dear friend of 15 + years who
is gay. I will make a special intention for you and all others who fear
needlessly will come to realize that, as our God must truly love each of us,
we must  [TRY] to alo love and accept eachother...even nasty-spoken homo-phobes

stephanie

Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: marco@sdf.lonestar.org (Steve Giammarco)
Subject: Re: Fags in general
Organization: Best lil' ol' Pubnix in Texas
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 13:25:31 GMT

>>Ok all you stupid little fags, I will give it to you straight (or as 
>>straight as you can get) you all are going to die!! If aids does not
>>kill you I will and I fucking mean it!! Oh I'm sure you are not 
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

For me, this is the portion that determines whether someone keeps or loses
their privilege to use the net. I'm not locking him up in jail, nor am
I threatening his life, nor am I taking away _all_ of his constitutional
rights to speak -- just his right to speak on this network. An eye-for-an-eye,
as it were...  

I mean _really_ folx.... are we losing perspective here? I think the sysadmin
did the right thing by removing the offender from the net. No big deal.



>>scared of one person, But each year hate crimes grow and soon you
>>people will not be able to walk down the street. Oh what a great day that
>>will be. So until later I hope you get aids or get the shit beat off you.
>
>>    Fuck Off and Die......
>>David Duke In 1996!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, you all _could_ have sat on your hands instead of replying, knowing 
this jerk was baiting ya. But ya didn't. So here we are.

-- 
Steve Giammarco/5330 Peterson Lane/Dallas TX 75240
marco@sdf.lonestar.org
loveyameanit.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 11:28:10 EST
From: The Dreamer <ASG102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Has anyone HERE changed? (WAS: Analogy betwixt....
 <1992Dec17.072615.1068@nwnexus.WA.COM>

>>  I just wanted to know if anyone who posts here WAS a homosexual and now
>>IS a heterosexual?
>
>   No, but I know of a few heterosexuals who've become bisexual because
>of their interaction with usenet...
>
>         Elf !!!

     Perhaps they were bisexuals all along and just realized it after
interacting with usenet.  This entire question of choice/no-choice is
clouded due to the existence of bisexuals (no, I am not bashing them,
it's just an observation).  For example, a bisexual man who is mostly
attracted to men could supress this desire and convince himself that
he only likes women and is now "cured".  THIS is the type of person
who the fundies refer to when they speak of "people who were homosexual
who are now cured".

     *shudder*

     All of this is IMHO.  Flame all you want...we'll post more.

     Love and Peace and Asbestos PJ's,
               -The Dreamer-

The Dreamer: Really just an overgrown teddy bear.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,talk.politics.mideast
From: asoper@wyvern.twuug.com (Aubrey Soper)
Subject: Re: stupid propaganda
Organization: Wyvern Technologies
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:25:16 GMT

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>In article <1992Dec12.183520.13969@wam.umd.edu>, aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>
>>	[of a proposed regulation]
>>
>> It is the right of any country to protect its citizens. 
>> This is done as a rutine on any countryt of the world, or at least, \
>> most of them.

>Great.   Now all you have to do is to establish two things.

>One: that excluding HIV positive immigrants "protects" anyone.

What makes you think that not increasing the number of people
with a communicable, fatal disease differs from protection?


>Two: if one country does something, that makes it right for other
>	countries to do the same thing.

That's just as silly.
-- 

aubrey
---                              ;
><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>'  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: The Analogy Betwixt Gays & Blacks (Re: Children in Same-gender Families)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 23:00:30 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1gtiktINNdbc@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
|> 
|> No kidding!  Am I saying that gay people *do* want quotas?  Or is that 
|> what you are reading between the lines?  What I'm saying is, a lot of 
|> people DO believe it, because they haven't heard clearly otherwise. 
|> Most people don't have access to USENET like this, and don't have someoen
|> they can ask.  I'm not ASSUMING that the gay-rights movement wants it,
|> I'm ASKING if they do or not.  

Why should public policy, in Colorado or anywhere else, depend on 
what a minority wants?   Do we ask Jewish groups to disavow some 
hypothetical secret desire?    Do we tell Afro_Americans to declare 
that they don't want to establish quotas?    Do we insist that 
Hispanics declare that they don't want to establish Spanish?   Do 
we insist that Mormons declare that they have no desire to convert?

Equality before the law has nothing to do with insisting that people
make public declarations that they disavow goals.   We may make
such goals illegal, or if legal we may simply vote against them, but
we don't give ourselves the right to insist that a minority make
declarations of non-intent that others don't have to make.

Sure, the CFV can tell all the lies it wants about what Gays want
or do not want.   That does not mean that the onus is on Gays to
disprove these lies.

jon.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 03:23:05 GMT

In article <1gsskeINNgm8@hp-col.col.hp.com> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

>glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson) writes:
>
>> On church property they can say whatever they want. 
>> Religious prejudice has no place in secular public
>> education.
>
>Sounds an awful lot like:
>"On queer property they can say whatever they want.
>But queer propaganda has no place in secular public 
>education." 

If your objective is to show that the situations are parallel, I don't
think you've done so here.  A more accurate second sentence would be
"But queer propaganda has no place in heterosexual public education."
And I don't see any way that public education is necessarily
heterosexual, except by default assumption.  It is secular, however,
by the First Amendment.

(I'm uncomfortable with your use of the term "propaganda," but I'll
let it stand.)

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality