From: vid@zooid.guild.org (David Mason)
Newsgroups: tor.general,ut.general
Subject: Re: Computer shops in Toronto --- opinions?
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:22:17 GMT

Well, here we go again. I write a simple opinion to a post, and Evan has to
attack with one of his action-packed messages. Let's take a peek and see what
Evan, the lord god of knowledge for every topic that exists, and the avenger
for those who would doubt him, has to say, shall we?


From: evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch)
>In article <713748564.15422@zooid.guild.org>
>	vid@zooid.guild.org (David Mason) writes:
>
>>>Is the main goal to have a good, solid working computer, or to insist
>>>on a clone?
>>
>>The former, which generally coincides with the latter.
>
>While a clone may be as good as a name brand, it isn't necessarily so.

Yes, and this works the other way around as well. What's your point?

>
>>>The marketplace for computers is getting more competitive and more
>>>commodity oriented. If you can buy a reputable-name-brand computer for
>>>the price of a clone, why bother with the clone?
>>
>>Because. Name brand computers don't use standard parts.
>
>Remember this line for later.

Sure, let's see how you twist it around and intentionally misunderstand it.

>
>>When you want to upgrade,
>
>depends totally on the quality of the vendor. A good name-brand vendor
>can help you upgrade as easily as a clonemaker.

Hey! What's your point.

>
>>get advice,
>
>Please offer any kind of evidence of why a clone maker *necessarily*
>offers better advice than a name-brand vendor.

Well, for one thing, the kind of brand-name system you find in a shop like
Future Shop only has a very few configurations. Whereas if you are buying your
computer in a clone store, there are many variations on what you can put in
the system.

>
>>or get repairs
>
>Repairs? Hah! How many clone makers even have schematics of the stuff
>they sell, let alone know how to fix 'em?

Ya right, Evan. How many computer places do you know that need schematics to
repair things? They take the part out and replace it with another. It's not
worth a technicians time to repair a part, and when it's a major part, they
just send it back to the original equipment manufactuer. This is the same for
Joe's Garage Clones and Dell.

>
>But yes, let's talk about repairs. 
>
>How many clone makers have a coast-to-coast on-site warranty? How many
>clone makers offer *any* kind of on-site service contracts?

You can get onsite service from any of a number of service providers for the
same price, regardless of where your system came from. In fact a lot of name
brand clones get their service from the same source.


>>I had a client with a Dell under warranty have his keyboard go blewie.
>Called Dell. Next day there's a Fedex box on hist doorstep with a new
>keyboard, and a prepaid waybill to allow the client to send the old
>keyboard back in the same box. Minimum down time, identical service
>through most of urban Canada, no questions about how the problem
>happened. I have yet to find a clone vendor willing to offer this level
>of service.
>

So, what about most people, who live in the same city they bought their clone
from? A ten minute drive to the computer shop to pick up a replacement. Can
Dell beat that? And you can find clone shops who will Fed Ex you parts as
well, it's not like Dell has a patent on Fed Exing parts you know.

>But then, if your own time is worth nothing to you, than the extra
>downtime, and the time you spend hauling the hardware back and forth to
>your clonemaker, is probably a small price to pay for that real bargoon
>you got on the original hardware, eh?

La la la. If something goes wrong, you MAY pay extra to POSSIBLY save some
time on the repair of your system. Of course, that is IF the system breaks
down, and IF it's not cheaper and faster to just pop by your dealer, IF the
dealer won't ship it to you, and IF you absolutely need it the same day. How
often does the typical home user absolutely need something the same day? If
it's an emergency, most intelligent dealers will get something to you
immediately.

>
>I don't buy cheap hardware because it costs too much.
>

Hey, that's a nice platitude, but you forget that the average name brand clone
is made out of the same cheap hardware. 

I'm not going to defend basement quality stuff here, like "Oak" VGA cards,
which I've had many problems with.

>>you are stuck getting them from the company that made the system.
>
>Oh please. This is utter bullshit.
>
>I can get a service contract from Bull or Olivetti or most other service
>organization easier than I can for a clone.
>

That was even true until a little while ago. For example, Xerox wouldn't cover
clones two years ago. But they do now, for a lower price than most name brand
systems. I just checked into this a month or so ago. Why? Because the name
brand specific parts are more expensive and harder to get ahold of then
standard clone stuff. Suprise.

>>The cases aren't standard.
>
>Please stop with the misinformation. This is getting ridiculous.
>
>One can buy a name-brand PC with either a standard chassis, or a
>non-standard one. The "non-standard" ones are useful for people who
>don't have gobs of space on their desktops or have specialized
>requirements.
>
>The difference is, with a name-brand, one has a choice. With a clone
>there isn't.

Actually there are lots of "pizza box style" and mini sized cases for clones,
as well as minitower and tower configurations. The difference being they still
fit standard parts. Of sure some of them aren't as miniscule as some of the
really small name brand cases, but then they fit the standard complement of
add on cards and drives.

>
>>In a clone, when you
>>want to upgrade from a 386sx to a 486DX, you pull the motherboard out (and
>>sell it) and drop in a 486. You can't do that with most brand name boards,
>
>You don't have a clue what you're talking about. I just did exactly this
>last month in an Everex. Most systems are capable of generic motherboard
>replacement, except for the specialized ones with small footprints.

Except when they do things like put on weird power connectors, and other nasty
"gotchas". I've seen it frequently.

>
>Besides, you'll notice that there's more to upgrading a PC than just
>upgrading the CPU. The memory has to be faster (throw away all those
>80ns SIMMs), and you need to reduce that I/O bottleneck (goodbye IDE
>hard disk). You might also need a new power supply for all these new
>components.

Most systems sold within the last year have 70NS SIMMs. 70NS SIMMS work fine
in a 486-50. Or are you desperately trying to find 30NS SIMMS for your new
system Evan? With a memory cache you don't need to keep buying faster memory
for faster processors. As for disk, IDE is fast for most people, but at least
in a clone you know you can just add on a SCSI controller and a new SCSI drive
in addition to your IDE drive. As for the power supply, sorry, but most new
parts require less power than the older parts.

>
>What's left? keyboard, floppies, case and video. Wow. 

And disk, and memory. So you can buy a name brand system and have it lose all
it's value a year or two from now, or buy a clone and upgrade it piece by
specific piece, when neccesary, rather than replacing the whole system (and
selling the old one for way less than you sold it for.. I don't see much of a
resale market for used name brand clones.. and believe me, I keep my eye on
the used market).

>
>>Besides, I haven't seen any name brand machines that compare
>>to a similiarly priced clone unless they are really stripped down.
>
>Which proves you haven't been shopping. When all you look for are
>clones, and admit to biases that you won't even look at the name-brand
>stuff, it follows that you wouldn't even know if they were competitive.

That's a guess on your part, and it's wrong. I am constantly helping friends
and coworkers shop for new systems.

>
>>>I have totally given up on clone makers. Because of the nature of the
>>>business, they generally belong to the motherboard-of-the-month club,
>>>and next year when something goes wrong, they may not even have the
>>>jumper-pin settings for the one you buy today, let alone know how to
>>>service it.
>>
>>I guess you have had some bad experiences with clone dealers.
>
>Turn it around. Between myself, my friend and clients, I haven't known
>a single user who tried to save a few bucks on clones who didn't
>eventually come to grief because of it.

That's too bad. Oh, yeah, there have been a few bad experiences with clones,
but they've been resolved, and they mostly occured to people who bought REALLY
bargain basement stuff. By buying reasonably quality clone stuff, much like
the buyer at Dell, you can avoid this kind of problem. I've had lots of bad
experiences with name brand clones, though.

>
>>Besides, how many name brand companies do you know of that can
>>answer many technical questions?
>
>All of the ones I deal with. There are good name brands and there are
>bad ones. The good ones, the ones I deal with, have technical support
>lines staffed by multiple people who know what they're talking about,
>have access to all schematics, know exactly what BIOS is in their
>motherboards, and have warehouses of spare parts. Moreover, they supply
>me with diagnostic softrware that goes well beyond the conventional
>stuff, that can answer many of the technical questions before I ever
>have to get to a phone. Because they don't change motherboards at whim,
>they can plan ahead to get to know the designs they use.

Ahh, so there are good brand name manufactures and bad. Sounds like the clone
market. And some of them supply good support, some of them bad. I've read lots
of articles and the various PC oriented magazines I've read, some one day
mentioning how good a particular company's support is, and two months later
mentioning how bad it is. Sometimes the high quality support in a company can
come down to one individual, and when that individual gets swamped with work,
promoted, or goes onto another company, suprise, the support disappears. It's
equally true for all companies, clone or not. And the fact is that the larger
a company is, the larger their support staff is, and the harder it is to get
through to a real technician who isn't put their to front-line all the dummy
calls - and that front line is convinced all calls are dummy calls.

>
>>A lot of name brand systems use clone parts
>>and even motherboards anyways,
>
>Which brings me back to the line I asked you to recall earlier,
>
>    >Because. Name brand computers don't use standard parts.
>
>Please pick one vague overgeneralization and try to defend that one, OK?

As I mentioned, I knew you would intentionally misunderstand. 

When I talk about non-standard parts, I'm talking about things like cases that
don't hold standard motherboards or power supplies, motherboards that fit
those nonstandard cases with nonstandard power supply connectors, floppies
that are molded in a certain way to fit a certain case style. I've even seen
things like standard hard or floppy disks that have been bastardized so they
only work in a certain name brand system. 

Add this to things like I/O ports or video cards built into the motherboard,
which is a good thing until you want to add something different and find out
that it doesn't release an interupt when you disable it, still hogs a RAM
address, and so on.

>
>>And by their nature they aren't usually a deal.
>
>Please explain "by their nature". I honestly don't know what you mean.
>If this is another broad generalization, please back it up with
>something. Anything.

As I mentioned, I believe quite clearly, a name brand will generally come out
with a model of computer, and try to keep it on the market in that
configuration as long as possible. Because of that, it will tend to fall
behind the times. I'm not endorsing bleeding-edge technology, because
sometimes you can get hurt, but sometimes it's nice to get as much value for
your money as possible. The type of clone that is sold in Future Shop will
generally stay in that configuration for 6 months to a year, or longer. By
the time that system is 6 months old, in the computer industry, it's design is
outdated in terms of performance and capability.

It's like buying an NEC monitor. When they first come out, they are
leading-edge, top of the line, expensive but worth it. A year later, the NEC
monitor is still the same, and generally the same price, but the clones have
caught up with the NEC monitor and surpassed it in terms of capabilities and
are more value for the dollar. Now do you understand?

>
>>At least when you get a clone it's
>>usually reasonably new stuff, with name brand stuff, because they are trying
>>to remain consistant,
>
>Consistant? How many clone makers have used the same 386sx motherboard
>for the last 18 months in all of their systems?

You're quoting me out of context, chopping up my comments, and doing other bad
form things. Tsk tsk.

Anyways. It's true, clone manufacturers do tend to change motherboards a few
times a year, if a better, cheaper one comes out to replace the older one. And
it's that competitiveness of the parts makers that makes the entire PC/clone
industry so fast moving and keeps the prices dropping. But that doesn't mean
there is a support problem. Believe me, I buy and support these things, and
the difference between one board and another is minimal.

Besides, name brand systems change as well. Just because they continue to buy
their motherboard from Micronics for a year doesn't mean that Micronics isn't
going to change the board in six months. They certainly will, if they can
improve it.

>
>>their stuff is usually outdated as well as being
>>overpriced.
>
>I see. Please tell me what the difference is between a year-old 386DX/33
>and a brand new one.
>

About $500, mainly. But then that year old system may have a cheap video card,
lousy hard disk, whatever. Once a name brand clone company like Packard Bell
chooses their parts, they place an order for thousands of those parts. They
are stuck with them.

>>Besides, if you are smart, you will get the manuals for the
>>motherboard and other important parts, so the dealer doesn't have to.
>
>That's assuming the vendor can (or is willing to) give you one. What
>makes you think all of them do?

No, not all of them do. Do all of the name brand vendors?

>
>>Yeah well it's always the name brand systems that you are reading about that
>>need fixes and adjustments.
>
>Examples, please. This is another crock.

It's not a crock. Just the other day I was reading in UNIX World how a certain
name brand system needed an update because they had decided to fiddle with the
keyboard timings and the mouse port didn't work properly. That's just one
example, there are many more. However, I don't keep a file of them, and I'm
not going to quote from memory.

>
>>It's always the name brand systems that do weird things (in the name
>>of competition) that make them incompatible.
>
>There are good name brands and bad ones. To me, the bad ones are bad not
>because their stuff doesn't work, but because they re-invent wheels that
>are not compatible with anything else. The two biggest offenders, IBM
>and Compaq, are definitely to be avoided.

I agree completely.

>
>But most of the "second-tier" name brands (Dell, Everex, Gateway, Zeos,
>AST, ALR, NEC, Acer, there are hundreds) do not re-invent wheels.
>They're just solid basic equipment.

Which is the same thing you would say about a good clone sold from a good
clone dealer.

>
>>It wasn't the clones that came
>>out with shadow ram, ram caching, and so on in the first place, it was the
>>name brand systems and motherboard manufacturers. The clones generally just
>>clone things.
>
>And sometimes they don't do a very good job of it.

That's true, but sometimes the name brand systems mess up too. What's your
point?

>
>>Ah, can you swap the motherboard for a faster one?
>
>Yes. Next question.

No, not always. In this discussion, we are not assuming that the buyer is
computer-literate. Is a computer-non-literate person going to know the value
of being able to upgrade? 

>
>>Can you fit lots of drives in it?
>
>Depends on the enclosure. If you want a laptop, no.
>If you want a case like the Everex Cube, you have *eight* drive bays,
>all with adequate ventilation and power, and which can be installed or
>removed from the system with thumbscrews. And there are lots of desktop
>and tower configurations in between. Next question.

That's one particular model of one brand name. I know of lots of clone cases
that fit 8 or 12 drives. There is one model I am thinking of, that comes on
casters, that fits 12 drives. Costs something like $300 with a power supply,
but I guess if someone needs that much expansion.

>
>How many CPUs can you fit in a clone?

Oh, come on. Multi-cpu computers really haven't proven their worth yet.
Tacking multi-cpus on an ISA or anything derived from it is a waste of time at
the moment. Maybe it will get better, I don't know, but the huge price
premiums of these multi cpu systems simply aren't worth it presently for the
10% or so of extra effectiveness you get from most applications. If someone
needs multi-cpus, they would more than likely be better of switching to a
different platform for that application.

>
>>Can you easily upgrade the memory using standard SIMMS?
>
>Sigh. Yes. If you had a clue, you'd know that all major name brands
>switched to SIMMS quite a while ago.

Yes, most of them did, but not all, and this is a stigma that the name brand
clone manufacturs should have following them around as a reminder of the kind
of tacky thing they occasionally try. They still do something similiar - the
price of memory upgrades from many name brand companies is still really high
compared to clone shops because they are trying to trick customers into buying
them off them to make money of the "accessories". 


>
>>Can you easily
>>upgrade the video card to a standard one?
>
>Um, yes, you plug one out and plug the other one in. How else do you do it?

I'm talking about some of the motherboards that have built in video, generally
found in name brand systems. Some of them still caused problems after being
disabled, and some couldn't even be disabled.

>
>>Do you have enough slots for a sound
>>card, video card, i/o card, scsi card, and midi card? 
>
>Like with drive bays, there's quite a range. From 0 slots (in a laptop)
>to 12 full EISA slots. And lots in between.

Yeah, just like a clone system.

>
>>>>Besides, most of the people who work at Future Shop don't really seem to know
>>>>what they are talking about.
>>>
>>>Who gives a damn?
>>
>>But you just said  awhile ago that it's important! Make up your mind!
>
>Where did I say it was important for everyone to have knowledgeable sale
>staff? I suggest that there's absolutely no *necessary* relationship
>between clone hardware and skilled salespeople. Both have their good and
>bad. Depending on the needs of the customer, you go to a place with
>skilled staff, or you go to a place that doesn't have to hire skilled
>staff and sells stuff for less.

UH-huh.

>
>>Yes, that's right, and that's not something you're going to have to call all
>>the computer stores for tech support. Believe me, I've tried to shop at Future
>>Shop, but they can't answer questions.
>
>That's what feature brochures are for. The name-brand stuff all have
>brochures printed for them, describing their features in detail. Use them. 
>Even Future Shop has brochures.

Ahaha. that's a good one. Those aren't technical specifications, Evan, those
are sales glossies. They do fun things like print the *landmark* speed ratings
of computers, which are not reflective of the processor speeds. 

>
>>At the office where I work someone
>>insisted on buying a Mac from them (shudder) and there was no support. The
>>people are not only technicaly uninformed, they are too busy because Future
>>Shop only cares about volume.
>
>That's right. Support costs money. You want a place that'll hold your
>hand, that costs extra. Why do you seem surprised by this?
>

I'm not suprised. I'm just pointing out one of the many pitfalls of buying
from a place like Future Shop.

>>I bet if you had called around you could have
>>gotten a better price anyways.
>
>Then pay up on your bet. I spent four days calling around and FutureShop
>had the best price.


For what? A laser printer? 

>
>>I definatley know what I want, and it's not a problem for me. But most people
>>don't know what they want, and they want to buy a computer from someone who
>>can answer questions, and they want something they can upgrade in the future,
>>can have repaired reasonably. 
>
>What happens is that people walk into a store with skilled staff and
>more expensive prices, pump the staff for information, then buy
>mail-order.
>
>They deserve what they get.
>
>Support costs money.

Is there a point to that?

>
>>What's so special about Dell? Nothing. They put their hardware together well,
>
>If that reason isn't *paramount* to you then I don't know what is.

It is paramount. It's the most important thing. Obviously. But you quoted me
out of context. All I was saying that the only important thing is to build a
system out of quality parts, and there is no magic behind that. Of course,
Dell slaps a hefty premium on their prices, especially in Canada. And Dell
does fun things like compare their prices to the public to other people's LIST
prices. And of course items are generally sold at just 50 - 75% of their LIST
price.


>
>>but they are using standard parts, standard motherboards, video cards, etc.
>
>Of their own design, put together using their own quality control,
>backed by their own reputation and cost-to-coast on-site awrranty.

That's nice.
>
>It's doesn't just meet the standard, it exceeds it.

That's sales talk.

>
>>They are just using  good, standard parts, just like any other dealer, except
>>they put it in their own special case (that doesn't usually fit standard
>>motherboards).
>
>You really don't know about this stuff, do you? Have you ever looked
>inside a Dell system? Do you know for sure that a standard motherboard
>could't fit in the Dell systems my client is using?

It depends on which model. A neophyte wouldn't know which one. Remember, you
are defending all name brand systems. Just like I am defending all clone
systems. There are faults with both. However, I've seen more faults with name
brand systems, and one of them is nonstandard cases.

>
>How much would you like to bet? I could use some spare cash.

Heh heh, I don't doubt it, with the advice you give (sorry, that was a low
blow, but I couldn't resist.. ignore it).

>
>>If you are a knowledgeable shopper, you can get a clone that
>>has the exact same parts as a Dell,
>
>Not possible. Dell makes their own motherbaords, and many other components.
>Standard stuff, but to their own quality specifications.

So what? I could buy a Micronics or AMI motherboard that is just as high
quality if not better.

>
>>Paying a price premium for a system that will be worth a half
>>or a third of it's original value without being upgradeable, and one that you
>>are basically stuck with if the dealer goes out of business.. just doesn't
>>make sense.
>
>If your NEC dealer goes out of business, NEC will still support its
>warranty.

No, I'm talking about if Dell or Northgate or Zeos or Packard Bell or whoever
goes out of business. The people who put the system together, the people you
have to call for support, the people who are supposed to have an inventory of
replacement parts if something goes wrong.

If you have a clone, and the company goes out of business, and the motherboard
dies, you buy a new one. It's $250 for a reasonable 386DX-3 motherboard
today, and you know it will work in your clone. 

If your Packard Bell Packmate's motherboard dies, and Packard Bell decides to
get out of the PC business, or decides to stop supporting that model, or runs
out of motherboards, then you are out of luck. Who says you would want to be
in luck, I wager that a replacement 386DX-33 motherboard would cost a HECK of
a lot more from a company like Packard Bell, or Dell, or whoever.

>
>If you Clone-a-tron dealer goes out of business, do you really think
>anyone else will support its warranty? Dream on.

No, but other dealers can support the system, because it's made out of
standard easily supportable parts.

>
>Not to mention the far greater likelyhood of Clone-a-tron going out of
>business than NEC.

That's true. But it's not such a big deal.

>
>>I'm really sorry that you've obviously had some bad experiences with clones in
>>the past, Evan. But I haven't, I've used a lot of clone stuff, and I support a
>>lot of it at work.
>
>There are good name brands and bad name brands.

Hey! Guess what! there are good clones and bad clones! WOOOWOW!
>
>At least if you have a bad experience with one you can avoid it at a
>later date. If there's no label on the computer, if you're not the one
>who bought it, what do you know what to avoid?

Generally you can swap the part for another. Buy a bad name brand machine?
It's garbage, put it in the trash, maybe you can save the floppies, monitor
and hard disk, but the case may be non-standard, the motherboard may be non
standard, the i/o maybe built into the motherboard, same with the video, etc..
even the keyboards are non standard on some name brand systems.

Anyways, finding a good clone dealer is the same as finding a good name brand
clone system, except the clone dealer is generally more flexible and has
better prices.
 
>
>In this business, reputation counts for something. Good or bad.
>

Yes, and reputations are made and broken in a matter of weeks or years. Last
year Northgate was the darling of the name brand clones, this year they are
dirt in a lot of people's eyes. Big chains go from being the best to out of
business in short periods of time. Both Northgate and Zeos are having
problems, and Compaq is getting worried, and Dell has been doing a lot of
manovering lately too. You can't rely on anything in this business. 

Now Evan, before you fly off the handle and formulate another of your
insult-ridden, "I'm the smartest, you're an idiot" replies, do a few things.
First, think about your reply for a while. It's not nice to insult complete
strangers. Next, everyone is entitled to their point of view, and everyone is
right to one degree or another. Also, remember, it's just possibly that you
are wrong, Evan, maybe not on everything but on at least a few things you say,
and heck, it's even possible that the saying "your mileage may vary" is true,
different things work for different people.

Let's think back to the start of this "discussion", before it got sidetracked
on another of your exciting and wonderous journeys into your vast knowledge.
It was simply a person asking what computer shops are good to buy from. Now, I
stepped in with a few of my personal pointers, the main one being you should
compose a list of parts you want and shop various stores to see which want had
the best price on a sytsem with those parts. Now, aside from the fact that you
can't really do this at places like Future Shop because they don't know what
their systems are composed of, and their clones aren't versatile enough to
have anything but what they are built with, wouldn't you say it's good advice?
No? Why not? Maybe if you just answer this question, instead of endlessly
quoting everything I say, mixed up, chopped up, or out of context, and
bringing up one of the many endless permutations of an answer designed to
prove me wrong, someone will find benefit out of this thread (well, out of
those who haven't killed it already). Otherwise, I suggest you desist. This
conversation has proven to be rather pointless, for you see neither one of us
is totally wrong and neither is totally right, and it's just turning into a
tremendous time waster.

I have a dealer I deal with at work. We've purchased about 200 PC clone
systems from him, plus upgrades, and he also supplies Seneca College and a few
other places with thousands of systems. He doesn't always know everything, but
when he doesn't, he tries to find out and he always gets problems fixed. His
prices aren't the cheapest but they are certainly cheaper than Dell, ALR,
Epson, and the other name brand systems. He provides us with fast, onsite
service, and his clones are composed of good quality parts, and when they
aren't, I tell him and he switches to better parts and provides us with a way
to upgrade inexpensively. Now, I'm not going to broadcast this clone dealer's
name publically, because one of the things I like best about this place is the
fact that 95 times out of 100 I can talk to the owner when I call there and
tell him my problems, and he gets them fixed. I will admit that this clone
dealer is a rare jewel, but I have been involved in this industry for a while
now, and while not every experience with a clone dealer has been as good, I
generally find that armed with a little knowledge you can find good equipment
for a good price.  

I have also found that when I call a name brand clone, I am usually met first
of all with a long wait for a technician, then I am patronized, then I am
given wrong information, if they have information. Getting good information
from a brand name dealer is not guaranteed. It's not guaranteed from a clone
dealer either, but at least with the clone, the entire system isn't a write
off if something doesn't work out.