From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormonism & Evangelical Christianity
Date: 26 Sep 92 15:00:13 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1992Sep26.012757.1037@javelin.sim.es.com>, gclapp@javelin.sim.es.com (Glenn Clapp) writes:
> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
>> gclapp@javelin.sim.es.com (Glenn Clapp) writes:
>>> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
>>>> gclapp@javelin.sim.es.com (Glenn Clapp) writes:
>>>>[...]
>>
>>Okay, which bible?  Protestant?  Catholic?  What about the Gospel of
>>Thomas?  What is included in the "only" source.
>>
> Very reasonable question.  Are there serious doctrinal differences
> between Protestant and CAtholic Bibles?  

I thought I was asking you.  You mean to say you don't have the
answers?

> What about Catholics who use the Protestant Bible, and vise-versa?  

I thought I was asking you.  You mean to say you don't have the
answers?

> Should the "Gospel of Thomas" be included?  

I thought I was asking you.  You mean to say you don't have the
answers?

> Why or why not?

I thought I was asking you.  You mean to say you don't have the
answers?

>>[...]
>>> If the Mormon chruch feals that the Bible is fine other
>>> than its translation, why have they not done a new correct 
>>> translation, and made it their standard?  
>>
>> They did, and published it in 1979.  It is the LDS edition of the
>> KJV with extensive footnotes, appendices and study helps.
>>
>>The church leaves translation of the Bible to the International
>>Bible Ssociety, or some such organization.  The Church is,
>>however, working on a _Guide to the Scriptures_ wich will
>>essencially be a book containing most of the study helps
>>published in its English Editions of the scriptures.  This guide
>>is the book that the Church will have translated into other
>>languages, in additions to having the Book of MOrmon, Doctrine
>>and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price translated into other
>>languages.
>>
> Why does the Mormon church trust an organization that is _not true_
> to do its Bible translations?

Because it is resource consuming enough to translate the Book of
Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price into
other languages.

Besides, what's wrong with using an exixting transaltion and
providing a study guide for it, as the Church is doing?

>>Your statement #3 at the beginning of this quoted material doesn't
>>qualify itself to answer these questions.  Why should I qualify
>>my quotation?  I think it adequately shows that we also believe in
>>the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
>>
> I'm not denying that.  What I wanted to know, is that that deity means.
> Who is the person?  What is the person?

Your original statement didn't ask or explain these things, so
I'll wait for you to answer your own questions befoire I throw
mine in.

>>> (McConkie, Promised Messiah [p. 468, 355, 473; 
>>> Journal of Discourses 8:115, 4:217-218, 1:238]) [...] 
>>> (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 158)
>>
>>Hmmm... None of these are canonized statements.  Only
>>individual's speculative comments.  I still haven't seen any
>>canonized statement that elplicitly states God the Father had
>>physical, sexual intercourse with Mary in order to bring about
>>the conception of Jesus Christ.  Try as you might, there simply
>>is *no* official doctrine regarding *how* the conception was
>>accomplished.
>>
> Then why is it taught as anything other than specuation, when it 
> is taught at all?  

I've been a memeber all my life and I've *yet* to see the
*method* of the conception of Christ taught one way or the other
in *and* church meeting I've been in, or in any church book I've
read.

> How could someone, especially the significant
> people involved, even speculate such a thing as Mary copulating
> (or even being raped) by a man-god?

They haven't.  You are the one attaching *that* speculation to
their comments. 

>>>> "And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger,  
>>>> thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be 
>>>> unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great 
>>>> shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of 
>>>> his people. 
>>>> 
>>> Where did this happen?  What is the significance here?  Yes, these 
>>> are leading questions. 
>> 
>> See Matt. 4:1-2; 26:38-39; Luke 22:44; Isa. 53:4-5; Hebrews 2:18; 
>> 4:15; 5:8. 
>> 
> I was refering to the blood from every pore.   
> Luke 22:24 (the only place in the Bible that it talks about anyting 
> that could be interpreted as blood from every pore, or does it?) 
> "And being in anguish, (Over what was going to happen to him, the 
> cup before him), he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat ws _LIKE_ 
> drops of blood falling to the ground."  (NIV.  Sorry, no KJV handy). 
>  
> This is pretty clear.  We can even test this.  Do some running or 
> heavy exercise on a hot day or in a hot gym.  Observe the behavior 
> of your sweat as it collects into large drops and runs down your arms 
> and legs and falls to the ground.  It DOES behave like large drops 
> of blood.  (no need to observe blood, I'm sure we can all go by 
> memory.)  :) 

As memory serves me, blood oozes, not runs.  Have you never heard
the prase "blood is thicker that water"?

Also, John 4:24 is the *only* place in the NT that says that God is
a Spirit.  There are a lot of things that are mentioned only once
in the Bible.  What difference does that make?  What's your point?

[...]
>> Answer me a question and then I'll answer yours: 
>> Saved from what? 
>> 
> Eternal damnation.  Forever.  No hope of any change on one's standing. 

I see.  And just what does "eternal damnation mean" and when does
one reach the point that there is :no hope of and change on one's
standing"?

>>>> "For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who
>>>> have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who died not knowing 
>>>> the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned." 
>>>> (The Book of Mormon: Mosiah 3:5,6,7,9,10,11.) 
>>>> 
>>> Can you back this up Biblically?   
>>
>> See Levi. 4:13 (13-35); 15:27-29 (2-29); 
>> 
> I think we see very different interpretations here. 

Possibly.  It is admittedly a poor reference, but is is a
reference to ignorantly sinning and atonement was made for it.

>>> Where did this atonement occur? 
>> 
>>> It is worth pointing out, that in Mormonism, Christ attoned in 
>>> the Garden, NOT on the Cross as Christians believe.   
>> 
>> Oh, I don't know about that.  There seems to be quite a discusion
>> about it on MORMON-L regaring where the Atonement took place, and 
>> if it makes any diffrerence.  *Some* Mormons believe that the 
>> process of the Atonement *began* in Gethsemane and *ended* in 
>>Galgatha.  What difference does it make whether the Atonement 
>>took place "on 34th street or 43rd street" (to quote Terry Day  
>>without permission). 
>> 
> Doesn't it?  There is no forgiveness w/o the shedding of blood. 
> Since there wasn't any blood shed in the garden.... 

Some tend to interpret the passage in Luke as sayin ghtat there
was, including some of the church fathers refer tothe bloody
sweat.  I'll have to try to resurrect the posts from MORMON-L
that had these references.

> Look at what happened to Jesus on the cross.  He was pierced. 
> He died.  He was forsaken (He took upon Him the sins of the world, 
> and God can not abide with sin, since He is Holy. God left him. 
> The wages of sin is death, so Jesus (now mere man, with all the 
> sin of the world) died.)  The episode began in the garden, but 
> not the atonement.  That requires blood. 

And if you had been reading MORMON-L you would have seen that
this "doctrine" Mormons clearly beleive, isn't sl clear, and
isn't as widely held as you say it is.

These are actual comments from actual Mormons, not just quotes
from the LDS leadership on the matter.

>>> It is worth 
>>> pointing out here, that there is only one account of Sweat 
>>> LIKE blood occuring in Luke,  
>> 
>> So that makes Jesus' agony and sorrow in the garden totally 
>> insignificant? (Matt. 26:37-39; Mark 14:33-36; Luke 22:42-44.)

I will withdraw this statement.  I believe that the bloody sweat,
agony, and sorrow experinces by Christ in Gethsemane *is*
significant, but I have adequately expressed some of my feelings
about the atonement in another post. 
(See message ID <1992Sep25.144417.59175@cc.usu.edu>)

[...]
>> "... the Holy Gost ... is a personage of Spirit.  Were it not so,
>> the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. 
>> 
> Is it not supprior to have a body? 

I don't know.  Is it?
On the other hand, is there anything wrong with having a body?

[...]
> Is there a test to ensure that this spirit is the Holy Spirit and 
> not just "a" spirit that would influence you and make you "think" 
> it was the Holy Spirit?  

Well, *my* understand and experience seem to indicate that most
often the Holy Spirit is assiciated with feeling of peace and
calm; nad that the devil can imitate everything including "a
burning in the bosom", "speaking in tongues", "prophecy", etc.,
but that he can not imitate the feeling of peace and calm that
one feels when one is feeling the influence of the Holy Spirit.

[...]
>>> What is necessary to get into either of these two groups, the 
>>> saved and the lost? 
>> 
>>You mean you can't see it from reading the *complete* text I
>>posted?  Then I can't help you. 
>>  
> Isn't there a LOT more than what you mentioned?  What you are telling 
> me is all the most basic stuff.  

To paraphrase Joseph Smith: "We beleive in Jesus Christ, that he
is the Son of God.  That he died for our sins.  And that only
through him can one be reconciled to God. And everything
else is an appendage to that."

What more matters once I have "work[ed] out [my] own salvation
with fear and trembling"? (Philip. 2:12)

>> All I know is what *I* think I need to be to be saved. 
>> 
> And, what is that?  

It concerns me and God only.

Why is it that I have such a strong feeling that you are trying
to bait me with your questions?  <he asked rhetorically>

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu