From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Bruce Flame
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 23:05:12 GMT

karsten@nic.gac.edu (Karsten Hendrick) says:

>> 	please explain this.  how about some hard documentation that one
>> can confirm.  we are not talking about fandom type 'he was the greatest',
>> or black belt magazine filler by someone who never saw or met him in
>> action, but someone of a level of competence that is at least recognized
>> by a 'reasonable' number of people in the martial arts comunity.  someone
>> who actually sparred him in a contest/fight, or saw his training on a
>> regular basis.

>Try Dan Inosanto, or Paul Vunak.

Actually Paul Vunak had nothing to do with Bruce Lee, and as far as I know
never even personally knew him.  Up untill about '85-'86 I believe, he
was one of Dan's top students, but that's where the buck stops.
In fact I find it quite funny with alot of the tapes he puts out.  Teaching
Bruce Lee's this and Bruce Lee's that, when the man he's talking about in
the first place didn't even believe in teaching his this or his that.


>Oh jeez, it's the attack of the killer dojo groupies again.
>Excuse me, but 'wins' in a 'tournament'?  I guess that refers to point 
>fighting tournaments.  I've been to some of those.  Basically it's two 
>people shadowboxing each other, and one of them gets a point or half a 
>point, at the discretion of the judges/referee.  Point fighting does 
>not require fighting skill.  It requires 'point fighting' skill.  I'd
>hate to relate what would happen to someone stupid enough to attack me
>by throwing a reverse punch at my chest.  

Hey now wait a minute.  While I agree that tournament wins is not a 
way to judge someone, it is certainly by no means a way to discredit anyone
either.  I'm Sure Jim Kelly, Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, and
a host of other former point champs would like to hear how point is not
a test of overall skill, and that there is no real contact.  They'd 
probably laugh as hard as I'm sure alot of people that read that are too.

>I'll tell you how a friend of mine (Shotokan, TKD and Boxing)
>and I (Muay Thai) practiced OUR fighting skills.  We put on
>Kenpo gloves and elbow/foot/knee/forarm/shin/groin pads and beat
>the hell out of each other in his backyard.  We trapped, grappled,
>threw, wrestled, jabbed, elbowed, kicked, punched, and used knee 
>strikes, shin kicks, forarms, everything except headbutts, cuz we 
>weren't wearing any headgear.  THAT's fighting.               

Great.  I'm sure it's a great expereince.  I do that alot to (I love
Kenpo Gloves).  The point is have you been learning anything from
the process?  Otherwise what is the point of this except to beat 
eachother up?  And to what extent would you or your partner be learning
every single time?  I'd think a variation in it would help alot too.
Such as one thing I do to get the footwork going is to hold my hands
behind my back and have a partner let loose on me.  I try to avoid 
everything by body movements and footwork.  This exercise helps alot
for people who are "heavy on the feet" or aren't comfortable with
their movement.  And yes, this works for grappling to, as it helps
you get a sense of energy/mechanical flow of the action.
But to simply go in and beat eachother up for the hell of it, doesn't
accomplish much unless your there to test out new ideas ahead of time.
That may be fighting, but if that's all that's done, and you don't train
full contact in areas where you specifically lack, then it is also
a waist of time.
And for people who study arts that do no involve punches or kicks, it
would not be considered all fighting.  Fighting is a relative term,
and what you may boast as "fighting" to someone else might not
consider it their idea of practice fighting because their art
approaches fighting differently.

>> 	to the best of my knowledge, he never won any regional, national, or
>> international title in anything (except the movies) and he was never made a
>> master by a teacher of any style he studied.... nor did he ever attain a 
>> level deserving such title.

>Neither have I, and I have sparred with judoka, aikidoka, karateka,
>TKDers, Kung Fu stylists, Thais (Muay Thai), and boxers.  None of
>them have 'titles,' as far as I know.  They are fighters, not 'title'rs.
>We fight to fight, because we like to fight, and because we are good
>at fighting, and we're not in it to get a damn title.

My point exactly.  But you are way off the bat to critcize many of the
people that do have titles.  Just becuase they chose to go for a title
doesn't make them any less or more of a fighter.  It just means they
have different needs and goals other than yourself.

>Who cares about 'international' titles?  Only people who need to bolster
>some sadly lacking self esteem, or who take others on some ego trip with
>them have need for 'titles'.

Let me ask you, are you a psychology major?  Have you talked to Bill
Wallace, Pete Cunnigham, Kathy Long or any titleholders for that matter?
How could you possibly know what their goals are or what kind of an
ego they have?  The only one who has actually shown an ego trip
is Dennis Allexio.  Did you ever stop to think that maybe some people
ENJOY competition?  Does that mean that every athlete in every sport
in the olympics is on one massive ego trip?  Am I missing something
or is it some kind of cake walk to get to where these people are?

And tell me, if you feel this way, why did you feel the need to boast
about you and your friend and how you do "real" fighting?  What is
the difference between that and these people by your definition?

>Bruce Lee demonstrated his skill many times publicly.  There
>are people who have seen his skill and were awed by it.
>Why don't you read Robert Clouse's "The Making of Enter the
>Dragon," for really absorbing analysis of the person known
>as Bruce Lee.

Definately agree on this point.



While I know where you are coming from in this Bruce flame rebuttle,
I also have to say that your generalizations on alot of the above
are not fair either.


Marty