From: bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Re: Arggggh!
Keywords: true, ouch
Organization: Research Computer Facility, MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:28:45 GMT

In article <1ihcj4INN554@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk> mbrgw@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk (R.G. Walters) writes:
:
:In case we've forgotten where the flames came from, here's the "offending"
:posting with some explanatory comments.
:
:>What is the net's opinion of the best way to cope with interference of
:>this sort - e.g. after the auctions
:>
:>2C (or 2D or whatever, strong)    (4S)     ?
:>or
:>2C         (4S)          Pass     (Pass)
:>?
:>What do Dbl, 4NT, 5 level bids etc. mean?
:>What if the 2C opener was is 3rd position (i.e. after 2 passes)?
:>What effect does vulnerability have?
:
:Could this be any clearer? I'm trying to start a discussion on the most
:appropriate methods to cope with this sort of interference. AND I have
 
But then you ask a question not about interference over 2C, but over
YOUR PARTICULAR 1NT opening.  They are NOT the same, nor do the same
methods necessarily apply. Can't you understand this?  After interference
over 2C passes by responder are FORCING. This is standard. Noone else
has the faintest idea what a pass by responder means in YOUR system.

You also ask in your first line: 

"2C (or 2D or whatever, strong)  (4S) ?"
 
What to do over 2C and what to do over a strong 2 bid that actually
shows a suit are DIFFERENT. Similarly for a 'whatever' strong bid.
Lumping them together as you do shows you do not understand that the
situations are different. Your post seems to imply you believe that
one method can be used for ALL types of strong bids. This is simply not
the case. Handling intereference is VERY sensitive to exact agreements
about the limits and meaning of the strong opening. Suppose it went

(ACOL) 2H   4S   ??

Would you expect methods to be the same as over 2C? If not, then why
do you expect that anyone can discuss what to do over your 1NT opening
without knowing your particular methods?

2C openings are GAME DEMAND openings. The general indication is that
your 1NT does not fall in this category. 

Methods for handling interference are highly dependent even upon your
requirement for a 2C opening. This requirement can vary fairly widely.
The fact that several posters think your sample 1NT hand can be opened 2C
is a case in point.

Discussion of methods over 2C is DIFFERENT from discussion of methods
over your 1NT opening, since the requirements for 2C are more STRINGENT
than for your 1NT opening.

:>This came up last night:
:>
:>Vul. vs not, you deal.
:>
:   vvv - 13th card :-)
:>S  9                    You open 1NT (20+, any shape), and LHO leaps in
:>H  K Q T                with 4S, passed round to you.
:>D  K Q J 9 8
:>C  A K Q 2              Pick a bid.
:
:And here's a hand people might like to consider when discussing it. I _know_
:I said nothing about what partner's pass meant, but that's part of the
:discussion.  To rail against me for not describing our methods is, I still
 
It is NOT part of the discussion. It is up to you to tell us what partner
means in YOUR system. It is NOT the same as  2C-4S-P. You are playing
a non-standard strong opening bid. As such, we cannot tell you what your
agreements should be. You must tell US.

Why is this so hard for you to understand? 

And you continue to describe my criticism of your bridge logic with
such highly imfammatory terms as "nonsensical" and "railing".

I keep telling you that it depends on your agreements and you keep
accusing me of flaming.

:think, way beyond what was necessary. (OK: 1NT is our strongest opener, but
:did you really think otherwise?).
 
None of us have any idea. You did not tell us about your methods. ACOL
uses both strong 2 bids  AND a stronger 2C opener. Your methods might
be the same. We have no way of knowing.
:
:Now then. Somewhere in amongst Bob Silverman's postings, there was some 
:worthwhile contribution.  Now where was it....? :-)
 
I have tried to discuss what was wrong with your bridge expectations.
You have responded with accusations of flames, and with insults.
 
I am through talking with you. I classify you as one of those group of
people with the attitude "my mind is made up. don't confuse me with the
facts."



--
Bob Silverman
These are my opinions and not MITRE's.
Mitre Corporation, Bedford, MA 01730
"You can lead a horse's ass to knowledge, but you can't make him think"
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge