From: radams@cerritos.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: Re:Williams and the Romeros
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:33:51 GMT
 <1992Nov4.054915.25256@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> <1992Nov4.164513.7544@cerritos.edu> <1992Nov9.003323.11529@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA

In article <1992Nov9.003323.11529@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>, 
markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU writes:


> You are simply assuming that because you
> have heard the Romeros play certain passages faster than Williams that
> Williams cannot play them at that speed. I think that is a very dangerous
> assumption to make of a guitarist we both acknowledge sets the overall 
> standard for technique. The reason that Williams, or any other musician 
> with great technique, plays a given piece at a given speed, is because that
> is how they think the piece should be played. You would agree that Music is
> not a speed contest. So how do you know that Williams, or indeed lots of
> other players -Mikulka is an obvious example, are not physically capable of
> leaving the Romeros in their dust?  
> 

You make an excellent point. How could I know if Angel and Pepe are faster
than Williams if Williams simply chooses to play slower for musical reasons.
The answer is subjective. But how do you know that Angel and Pepe are also
not holding back and not playing nearly as fast as they could? A friend of mine
was at a get together (at I think Pepe's house) and Pepe was playing Estudio
Brillante of Tarrega very fast and an observer wondered aloud how much faster
Pepe could play the piece. Pepe then stepped it up a several notches so that it
was unrecognizable as we know it but nevertheless clean and effortless.  The
point is that Angel and Pepe also have musical considerations when they perform
and do not play fast for speed's sake, and could play much faster if they
wanted to.  I heard a live concert of Pepe's that was not going very well.
After the printed program, he came out and apologized and said he had the
flue that evening and said he would allow only one encore. He then sat down 
with his flamenco guitar and blew the roof off the concert hall with 
electrifying speed (ala paco de lucia but much cleaner) and extrovertish
bravado in a Alegrias and Bulerias. This guy while sick (taking him at his 
word) has incredible speed beyond what I have heard other guitarists capable 
of in public.  

Now, having said all this (including previous posts), I do not
take speed as very important. You need enough speed and facility so that
they can be used for musical purposes and never for their own sake. I still
prefer Williams as a player if you take musicality and technique together
as well as the kinds of programs he plays which I like so I am not ranking
on anyone here. But liking a guitarist should not lead someone to think that
the guy rules on every aspect of technique and musicianship, unless he
actually does. I heard Williams play the Chaconne (Bach) live also and he
had definite difficulty on one of the scale passages (may have been just
a nail problem or a random mistake) even though the rest of the piece was
as clean as a whistle. Again subjective, but it tended to confirm my view that
he is not as strong on scale passages as on other aspects of technique but
his scales are faster than 99.9999% of all other guitarists just the same.

Your point is well taken. There is no way one can be really scientific about
this unless you sat down the guitarists in question and ask them to play 
something as fast as they could and compared speeds. Otherwise it is all
subjective and I admit to participating in silliness to actually discuss
speed like it was some kind spectator sport. So meaningless. Sorry.


> fast. The points I am making are that 1) there is much more to speed than 
> scales, 2) a lot of people play fast but they do not play cleanly 3) the
> speed at Williams or Mikulka or Barrueco or even Marcel Kayath play is
> determined not so much by physical ability, but by musical considerations.
> On these grounds I maintain that your claim that the Romeros can play faster
> than anyone else, is at best unprovable.

I agree with your criteria. With all due respect to Pepe and Angel, they are
both as clean as clean can be so they are not fast at the expense of clean
playing. 



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