HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi)
Subject: Re: Varna-ashrama dharma in the ancient Tamil civilization 
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:48:21 GMT

In <1992Aug19.005954.15526@wuecl.wustl.edu> sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:

>In article <MANI.92Aug17115043@subversion.Berkeley.EDU> mani@sprite.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>>I for one am regularly disgusted with those in this group,
>>including Meenan, who blame brahmins for all the caste
>>problems, for varna-ashrama dharma for creating the innumerable
>>castes, when there is clear evidence that the ``indigenous''
>>Tamil peoples have had as much to do with these caste taboos as
>>any brahmins have (which is not to say that brahmins are less
>>indigenous than other Tamilians).
>>
>>In article <Bt37rv.6zp@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu) writes:
>>   In article <16AUG199209302886@ctrvx2.vanderbilt.edu> shivakl@ctrvx2.vanderbilt.edu (LAKSHMANAN SHIVAKUMAR) writes:
>>
>>   Meenan Vishnu
>>
>>Mani

>     Meenan Vishnu is correct in saying that only Brahmins
> introduced castes [ the varna-ashrama dharma ] in the
> ancient Tamil civilization. You will find references in
> this article supporting his claim.

>     I have consulted the book " The Tamils Eighteen Hundred
> Years Ago" by  V.Kanakasabai (1855-1906). This book(1904), 
> which describes the ancient Tamil civilization in the Sangam
> Period is respected by the Tamil scholars and is very often 
> referred to by other books on ancient Tamils which followed 
> this masterpiece of V.Kanagasabai.
>     First I quote from page 113 of the second edition(1956)
> of the book referred above :

   Another good reference is

  Srinivaasa Iyengaar, History of the Tamizhs from the earliest times
to 600 AD.

 It is very clearly established by Mr. Iyengaar that Brahmins
came after some time. He quotes peoms etc to prove how the alien Aryan
culture and varna based caste sytem came into Tamizh-Dravidian
society.

Cheers,

KK


>                                                   - S.Pandian
>                                            sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: provine@enel.ucalgary.ca (Joseph Provine)
Subject: I HATE S.C.T
Summary: USE, NOT WASTE your time on articles.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 20:29:53 GMT
Organization: ECE Department, U. of Calgary, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Keywords: THREADS, Blah Blah...
Followup-To: No THREADS ...

Dear Netters,
Why too many threads these days on S.C.T. over sensitive issues?
Promote the culture but donot develop hatred among yourselves.
Look at people from other countries. They donot fight among themselves
on these issues. When it was S.C.I. it was which state was the best...
S.C.T. it is which caste is the best. COme on friends. GROW UP.
Now, No threads as RE: I HATE S.C.T
S.C.T was more like a good tamil magazine initially, but now ???
WAKE UP.

Regards.

Joseph Provine.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: remote@control.b30.ingr.com (Remote Control)
Subject: Temples In USA
Keywords: temples
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:51:00 GMT

Hello Netters,

Recently a thread was started about constructing a temple for
Periyar ;-)... Well guys... go ahead and  construct  whatever
temple you want .. but what is  the future of these temples ?
The concept of "Marathathuku  maram  koil" has become "Cityku 
City koil" in the US.  I  guess,  by  the end of this century
almost every city in the US will have a temple. I am not sure 
if it is a good or a bad  sign.  Cities like Houston, Chicago 
have more than one temple.  But who  is going to take care of 
these temples  in the future ? I don't see many of the second 
generation Indians interested in all these.

Do people ever  think  about the  future before constructing a 
temple?  Am I  missing  something   here ? And why is that all 
the temples are constructed and administered by South Indians? 
I have not seen  any  North  Indian  style temples (like Birla 
Mandir) in the U.S of A.

Cheers
Satish

Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi)
Subject: rebels killed with knives-a joke
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:08:11 GMT

  Aiyah:

    nalla pakudi! siripu thaan!

   rebels killed in srilanka with knives. Joke of the century.

   rebels kaathulae poovu thaan vatchanukalaa!

  appavi thamizharai kondRu kuvithuvittu

  vEtikai paarkum ina veRiyarkaLai enna solvathu

  veerarkaL endRa! theerakaL endRa! maRavarkaL endRa!

  soorathi soorankaL thaan! saami!

KK
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:1270 alt.culture.tamil:1220
From: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu)
Subject: EVR part 8
Originator: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 18:39:37 GMT



More on EVR from the PhD thesis of Charles Ryerson, "Regionalism and
Religion, The Tamil Renaissance and Popular Hinduism".


Naicker said:

The doctrine of many castes and many gods is foreign to our race.
Our ancestors have not spoken of them in their works... My dear
Dravidean people... all we preach are found in the ethical works 
of our ancestors.  In the Thirukkural, the best of these ethical
works, the great characteristics of the Dravideans are found..
We came to our deplorable state because we forgot the Kural...
The Aryans speak of  "superior" and "inferior" status in their 
works.  But we cannot find such distinctions in Valluvar's book.
He says that all men are equal by birth... He does not ask the
people to worship stones in order to go to heaven.  He insists
on a disciplined life for men on earth.

Thus, Naicker held up a system of ethics which blended a "scientific"
socialism with a nontheistic interpretation of the venerable Kural.

(to be continued...)

Meenan Vishnu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi)
Subject: tamil3-siddhars etc
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:25:53 GMT


        This is continuation of the series on Tamil -facts.


(Ravi Kuchimanchi mentioned about Sanskrit Siddhic poetry.
I would like to know about them.)


                 Poems
                 ^^^^^^

 An important characteristic of early Sangam poems is
the secular nature of the poetry. Zvelebil correctly comments,
"What is so important about these poems is that they are the only example
of Indian secular literature dating from so ancient a period".
Before the composition of Bhakti hymns, Tamil had a long
history of sophisticated poems, grammar, and drama. A. K. Ramanujan*
observes the following about earlier Tamizh poems:

 "In the antiquity and in their contemporaneity, there is
not much else in any Indian literature equal to these
quiet and dramatic Tamil poems. In their values and stances,
they represent a mature classical poetry: passion is
balanced by courtesy, transparency by ironies and nuances of
design, impersonality by vivid deatail, leanness of line by
richness of implication."

*Prof Ramanujan is a Prof at University of Chicago. He has 
translated into English poems from most of the Indian
Languages, including Kannada, Telugu and Hindi.*

         Siddhars: 
         ^^^^^^^^^^

     They are a quite recent phenomena. They represented
a protest and denial of the religious practices and beliefs
of Brahmanism. They emphasized purity of character.
I would like to quote only Siddha poem repudiatesthe authority
of Vedas and condemns idol worship in temples.

"senkalum karunkalum sivantha saathi lingamum
 sembilum tharaavilum sivan irupaan yenkiReer
 umpatham nithuneer ummai neer aRintha pin
 ambalam niRaintha naathar aatal paatal aakumE"

  Sivavaakiyar.

"You say that Siva is in the bricks and granite
in the red-rubbed lingam, in copper and brass
 If you learn to know yourself first,
the God in the temple will sing and dance
     with you"!


A lot of us have a notion that bhaarathi was the first
to write simple poems in Tamil. Siddhars wrote really
simple and revolutionary poems a long time before bhaarathi.
In fact bhaarathi himself identifies with the Siddhars.

Another classical Sivavaakiyar song is where he simply
refutes the sanskritic-vedic theory of transmigration.
(KZ)

"kaRantha paal mulaipukA kadaintha veNNai mOrpukA
 udainthu pOna sangin Osai uyirkalum udaRpukA
 virintha pU uthirntha kAyum mEndu pOi maram pukA
 iRanthavar piRapathillai illai illayE"

"Milk does not return to the udder, nor butter to buttermilk,
 Nor the life within the sea-shell, when it breaks, to its body,
 The blown flower, the fallen fruit do not return to the tree
The dead are not born, never, never, never!"

----To be continued-----------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: Veeramany.Sthanumurthy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Veeramany Sthanumurthy)
Subject: Re: Uniform transliteration in the net : Some suggestions
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 20:47:54 GMT

In article <9208142003.AA28294@cec1.wustl.edu> sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>       Uniform transliteration in the net : Some suggestions
>     --------------------------------------------------------
>        Many prolific writers in the net like
>   K.Srinivasan ( srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca )
>   Sundara Pandian ( sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu )
>   Meenan Vishnu ( mvishnu@morse.waterloo.edu )
>    ...............
>  are currently using the ADAMI transliteration scheme

I think there is something wrong with this statement or
I don't know the scheme. 

For example: My understanding was

      teerAta vilayAttup piLLai      (is accurate in Adami)

      teerata vilayAddup piLLai      (is this accurate in Adami?)

And,   M Vishnu uses this notation.

Anyway, my vote is Yes for a single transliteration scheme.
As for the scheme itself, I like Adami. Of course, I would
like to see it reposted (too). And cross-post to ACT please
(otherwise, I will not be able to save it.)

ittudan Adamiyai maRanduvidumaRu paNivudanum paNbudanum kooRi
:-)

viDai peRum anban,
Sthan.

PS. To BK: if he is reading this, I couldn't reach you by email
before. I have tried sending a test message. The last time it
bounced after 3 days. If you see this email me and I will try
to use the 'r'eply command.

p.p.ku: nAngAvadu 'prolific' tamizh valaaignaraha (andap puLLihaLukkup
padil) naan 'Affable' Ahiya aruNa ennum anbarudaiya peyarait 
tAzhmaiyudan chamarppikkiREn.
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: kumar@syd.dit.CSIRO.AU (V.R.Kumar)
Subject: Re: Six abodes of Lord Murgan
Organization: CSIRO Division of Info Tech, Sydney, Australia
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 22:24:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.143345.22332@engage.pko.dec.com> pc_madhu@ruby.enet.dec.com (MADHU) writes:
>
>The six abodes are Thiruchendur, Thirutani, Swamimalai, Palani,
>Thiruparankundram and Pazhamudhircholai (not Marudhamalai as someone specified)

There is a song which explains the "Aarupadai veedu". It is :

" Aaeru mayil aeri vilaiyaadum mugam ondrae
  Eesanudan gnyaana mozhi paesum mugam ondrae
  Koorumadi yaargal vinai theerththa mugam ondrae
  Kundruruva vael vaangi nindra mugam ondrae
  Maarupadu soorarai vathaitha mugam ondrae
  Valliyai manampunara vandha mugam ondrae
  Aarumugam aana porul nee arulal vaendum
  Aadhi arunachalam amarntha perumaanae "


Anbudan,

V R Kumar

"Vaazhga thamizh, Vaazhga vaiyagam, Vaazhga valamudan"
 
-- 
 V.R.Kumar (Ramkumar Venkatachalam)                                 
 CSIRO, Division of Information Technology                         
 P.O.Box:1599, Macquarie Centre, North Ryde, NSW 2113, AUSTRALIA  

Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: dorai@cs.rice.edu (Dorai Sitaram)
Subject: Re: Joke time
Organization: Rice University, Houston
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 15:05:32 GMT

In article <5651@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> ram@vttcf.cc.vt.edu (Lakshmi Ramadurai) writes:
>       I extremely regret for my previous posting which included my
>comments bout Dr. Srinivasan's joke. i mistook him for a college student
>i msorry bout that Dr. srinivasan. please donot take it serious as it was not
>meant to hurt u intentionally. hope u understand me. keep in touch . my 
>phone #: 703-951-8221.
>meendum sandhippom. v please reply.
>ram.


For some unaccountable reason this reminds me of an Akbar--Birbal
story.  One day Birbal became quite exuberant and chumma kicked Akbar
in the bum, while the latter was bending over doing something the
palace help should have been busy with.  Akbar actually got angry.
Can you blame him?  "Off with his head," he cried.  (Well, I guess you
can blame him for THAT.)  But then, after some minutes, Akbar cooled
down.  Birbal was an old buddy after all.  The two had seen several
Tamil movies together, laughed at Sivaji's overacting together, and
wept copiously at MGR's poses, etc.  Can't chumma hang him, can he?

"OK!" said Akbar, "I'll let you go this time, if you can do something.
Since you're really ekkachakka smart, this shouldn't be too
difficult."

"What should I do?  What?  What?  My dear Badusha-ve!  My dear Gulab
Jamun-e!" panted Birbal.

"Nothing much.  Just state an excuse for your treading the royal
bottom.  Only thing, machaan, THE EXCUSE SHOULD BE EVEN MORE
OUTRAGEOUS THAN THE CRIME!"

"Poo!  Ivvalavu daanaa?" said Birbal.  "When I let loose that lusty
kick, I sincerely thought it was the QUEEN!"

Ding dong.

--d

ps: You may flame me for this on all four cylinders.  I'm _ONLY_ a
grad student.
-- 

dorai@titan.rice.edu   !    It may be that the gulfs will wash us down;
dorai@owlnet.rice.edu  !      it may be we shall touch the Happy Isles.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: 57mamtani@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu
Subject: Announcement - ASEI National Convention
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:21:56 GMT

	*********************************************************
	*							*
	*	AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ENGINEERS FROM INDIA	*
	*			(ASEI)				*
	*							*
	*	      9th National Annual Convention		*
	*	  "Technology and Indian Economic Reform"	*
	*							*
	*		Sunday, September 6, 1992		*
	*		 (starting at 2:00 p.m.)		*
	*			    at				*
	*		Ramada Renaissance Hotel		*
	*	   (near Dulles International Airport) 		*
	*	   (in metropolitan Washington DC area)		*
	*							*
	*							*
	*********************************************************


	ASEI is a nonprofit tax-exempt national organization of
	professionals, businessmen and students of Indian origin
	in Engineering, Architecture and Allied Sciences.

	Agenda:

	* daytime sessions :

	  - speakers on "Technology and Indian Economic Reform".
	     Mrs. Meera Shankar, Minister of Commerce at the Embassy of 
	     India will initiate proceedings with her address on economic 
	     reforms in India;
	     Technical and Student Sessions run concurrently afterwards.

	  - Technical Session include presentations by:
	     Dr. Rashmi Mayur, Director of Urban Development Institute
	     in Bombay;
	     Mr. Sharad Marathe, President of ICAT and Chairman of 
	     Software Technology;
	     Dr. Arun Netravali, Director of Computing Research at Bell 
	     Lab.

	  - Student Session will have workshops and panel discussions on 
	    job opportunities, resume writing and reviewing, and 
	    immigration issues by a number of experienced people in the 
	    field.


	* Evening Banquet
	   Dr. Kumar Patel, Executive Director for Research at Bell Lab 
	   will be the keynote speaker;
	   ASEI Engineer, Enterpreneur and Student of The Year awards 
	   and a $2000 student scholarship will be presented.

	Reservations:

	Single:		Members		$30
			Non-members	$35
	Couple:		Members		$55
			Non-members	$60
	Students:			$25

		-----------------------------------------------

	Further Info can be obtained by contacting:

	Dr. Chandrika Prasad	(301) 464-5042
	Dr. Chandra Pathak	(301) 916-5660
	Arun Mamtani		(e-mail 57MAMTANI@CUAVAX.DNET.CUA.EDU)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu)
Subject: Re: KarppaGraham ???
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:04:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.164604.23295@mercury.ncat.edu> setty@mercury.ncat.edu (Anup A. Setty) writes:
>>Sender: news@vercors.frec.bull.fr
>>
>>
>>It is not necessary to remove the shirt to enter the Chidambaram temple.
>>Only if one wants to have a very close darshan (near the 'karppagraham')
>>of Lord Nataraja, he is asked to remove his shirt.          ^
>>							     |
>>Prabhu						             |
>							     |
>                                                            /
>				                           /
>	What is the  meaning of the above word  ----------/
>	karppa == ???
>	graham == planet						
>
>	would someone explain the meaning of the above word.

Few years ago (around 1983, when I was last in India), B.V.Raman, in his
'Astrological Magazine' wrote that the Sanskrit word 'graha' actually means
'centre of energy'.

The words navagraha, grihasta, vigraha are some derivatives.
>
>	thanQ
>
>	anup

Meenan Vishnu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: vigneswa@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Was on God Siva, not on God Ganesh........
Date: 14 Aug 92 14:04:28 GMT

>When I thought about the meaning for the first time, I was sure that many  
>would not answer the  simple  question: "On which (form of?) God that the 
>thEvaram was sung?"  

There were few e-mail  responses.  Unfortunately, none of  them was right.
This was sung on "SIVAN", not on "PILLAIYAAR".

Only key of this is, "poruL uNarnthu Othuthal".  One has to break phrases
properly.

pidi athan uru umai koLa               when Uma took the form of a female 
                                        elephant
miku kariyathu vadikodu                with the form of a powerful male elephant
thanathu adi vazhipadum avar           those who pray his feet
idar kadi kanapathi vara aruLinan      created (blessed) Ganapathi who saves 
                                        from troubles
miku kodai                             a great philanthrophy
vadivinar payil valivalam urai iraiyE  the God resides in Valivalam,
                                        a place where beautiful women live.

......

Another phrase I enjoyed in Thirugnaanasampanthar thEvAram was, "thOdudaiya 
seviyan".  It simply says, God Siva is an "arthanAreeswarar".  The kid  saw
a thOdu on Sivan's ear.  Men wear "kuNdalam", not "thOdu" .....

Vicky:
UMass, Aug 14
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: kumar@syd.dit.CSIRO.AU (V.R.Kumar)
Subject: Re: A THREAT from a boneless tiger in the net
Organization: CSIRO Division of Info Tech, Sydney, Australia
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 00:35:37 GMT

>
>The followers of Brahmanism has a very pecular method of suppressing 
>their opponents.  Some examples in history are:
>
>(1)  ...Many women were involved in the struggle, including Periyar's
>     wife. Some of the Bramin men went naked in front of them to shame 
>     them... 
>
>(2)  A huge Vedic ritual was performed by the Rajah (of Travancore) to
>     destroy Periyar and his following but the Rajah soon died instead. 
>
>     (Both these are taken from the Charles Ryerson's book)
>
>What is unfortunate is that, present generation of Brahmanism followers
>are also doing the same cheap dirty tricks to suppress criticism.  One 
>such incident is the cooking up of an 'e-mail threat' apparantly
>send from the University of Waterloo 'surya' machine with an account
>name of 'LTTE'.  These followers of Brahmanism are desparately trying
>to bring in the LTTE issue in the current discussion of EVR/Brahmanism/
>Sati/Varna/etc.  I tried to finger this machine and found that there 
>are no accounts with the name 'LTTE'.  The system administrator of 'surya'
>is on vacation.  However, I found out that 'surya' and 'watmath' are the 
>only two machines on campus with 'anonymous' logon facilty.  Also,
>if one notes the header of the e-mail, it has line
>
>% Received: from wam.umd.edu by surya.waterloo.edu.bedinet (4.1/SMI-4.1)id AA29998; Wed, 19 Aug 92 12:05:15 EST
>
>The e-mail apparently originated at the site 'wam.umd.edu' and sent
>through the 'surya.waterloo.edu'.
>
>This is a kind request to the the Brahmanism followers.  If you can 
>debate in a healthy fashion in the net then do so.  Please do not resort
>to cheap and dirty tricks just as some of your ancestors did.
>
>I will let the netters decide on the truth of this e-mail.
>
>Meenan Vishnu

I agree with Meenan that some trick has been adopted to send 
a threat mail. But I do not know how Meenan is so sure that it
should have been sent by Braminism followers !!! Meenan, could
you please prove it ? I am not criticising you. Its easy to 
allege. But it is better to have some proof before coming up
with some allegations.

Not all Brahmins behave in a unified way. Do not make generaliza-
tions.  

Anbudan,

V R Kumar

-- 
 V.R.Kumar (Ramkumar Venkatachalam)                                 
 CSIRO, Division of Information Technology                         
 P.O.Box:1599, Macquarie Centre, North Ryde, NSW 2113, AUSTRALIA
From: ag3l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Arun K. Gupta)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: A threat from ....
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:33:52 GMT
Organization: Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA



The point is that Abdul Kalam made his name in the civilian
side of the Indian Space Program, that has made for nation-
wide telecommunications, television, early warning network
for the cyclones that hit the east coast, and so on and so
forth. Trivandrum is the center of the civilian space-effort.

In any case, in my opinion, any Indian who supports the LTTE
is a traitor to India. By India, I don't mean the pronouncements
and policies of the Indian government -- I mean the Indian people.
And I will treat anyone I come to know as such.

-arun gupta
ag3L@andrew.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: crathina@norton.uwaterloo.ca (C Rathinavelu)
Subject: God/Goddess opens his/her mouth only to ........
Originator: crathina@norton.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:14:01 GMT

   "Inter/intra gods talk to each other by Sanskrit and he also
talks to people in the same language (Bhashai)", this was told 
by my school teacher (even by other teachers of same community
with different origin) when she was teaching Tamil lessons/poems.
They also gave me some Sanskrit books to read because I was
outstanding in that school.But I am/was very poor in learning goody
goody things and it takes even decades for me to become fluent
in that Bhashai (may be lack of knowledge or time delay). 


                        The teacher told me that I can also talk 
to god once if I learn that Bhasai, then I can put my grievances
before the god too. I want to talk to god even if it takes five 
more decades for me to learn that Bhasai because once in my
life-time I am going to open the god's mouth (like every
muslims wants to keep his feet in Mecca/Medina).

                        Does anybody have the good chance of
talking to god as my teacher does everyday? If it is then please
request the god (male/female) to run/rule this injustice world
in a justice way ( Right now injustice people (male/female) are
ruling our state/country/world without a justice) on behalf of
my/justice people's sake. I hope the god/goddess will bless all
of us (justice and injustice people) and will rule the world in
a justice way in a near future after those people's request.
(After talking to the god in a divine Bhashai).

Half-theist, Going to become Full-theist after talking to god,

C.Rathinavelu,
(I include subramani-um/an in my name after I talk to god) 

"Kadavul Manithanaghap Pirakavendhum, rule panni injustice
vazhiyai justice vazhiyagha change panna vandhum "- M.G.R.