From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:18:47 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: SPSS Inc.

tony@tex.nde.swri.edu (Tony Benitez) writes:

>Let's talk about the ELECT:

>Romans 9:11- For the children (Essau & Jacob) being not yet born, neither
>	     having done good or evil, that the purpose of ELECTION might
>	     stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
>Romans 9:13- Jacob have I loved, Essau have I hated.

>And then continues the scriptures which verify that we are the seed of promise.
>We were "chosen before the foundation of the world" and it is GRACE, not our
>works (acceptance,belief,etc) that secures our ETERNAL Salvation.  Notice that
>God has made a choice between these two boys before they were born - one to
>his mercy and favor, the other to rejection and damnation.  Paul even tells
>us that God will have mercy on whom he will.  We are not even to ask "why has
>thou made us thus?"
Gee, this seems to contradict what Christ said.  Christ said that some
believers would be denied by Him.  He also said that men would be judged by
their own words and actions.  If the decision has already been made, how
can Jesus judge us on the last day?

As an aside, do you see the problem with this?  You are saying that your
salvation is predetermined by God, and since you can't fall away, it
doesn't matter what you do.  So if you are one of the chosen, going on a
murderous, raping, pillaging rampage cannot lose for you your place in
heaven.  And the person who is not chosen, no matter how perfect of a life
he lives, is condemend.  Jesus didn't teach this, either.  You were to
follow his commandments and keep his teachings.  You were to have faith.
We are saved by Grace, yes, but that decision isn't made until the last
day, when God judges us.

There need be no judgement if your theology is correct.  How do you explain
this?

>The Church is Jesus' instrument of comfort and salvation from a world of sin
>and grief.  It is the place where poor needy sinners come to thank their God
>for that love which only he could have planted in their hearts. 
If salvation (or not) is predetermined, why bother?  It can have absolutely
no effect on the outcome.  Or are you saying that it's God's way of
placating us so we don't get really upset about the idea of predetermined
salvation?

>I find absolutely no comfort in waiting around for a Kingdom at the end time.
I do.  Eternal life if greater than anything anyone can offer in this life.
Having my soul in the absolute full presence and glory of God is a
beautiful idea.  Just because you can't handle the idea of rewards in
heaven and not here on earth, don't color your theology.

>What comfort can Gods' chosen flock obtain in waiting for the Kingdom?
Eternal life....that seems like a lot of comfort to me.  Additionally,
knowing that God loves me here and now, and is present with me.

>Therfore, there is NO contradiction in that Deviant behavior (however
>described) is not accepted in the Kingdom, it's not.  They miss the joys of
>their "timely" salvation here in this life by their errant ways, but as the
>above scriptures verify, NO MAN can pluck Jesus' sheep out of his hand.
> Therein is all mens' hope who groan and cry out "Abba Father"  The adoption
>of Sons is theirs, they just don't press into the Kingdom of our glorious
>Father.
Well, gee, then, you're saying that homosexuals can be saved, and enter the
full presence of God, but shouldn't be allowed in the church?  WHAT???  ARE
YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?  Sorry about the caps, but look, if they are accepted
into God's presence (and you cannot possibly know who will and won't be)
then why can't we accept them into the church?

Look at all the contradictions...

And finally, learn to love all men.  Do not even the sinners and publicans
love their friends?

 -Steve

>your servant, tony@tex		My belief, not my employers.

--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc