From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Prayer in Public Schools
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:37:31 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <BxCytz.HGq@aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu> akbloom@aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu (Keith Bloom) writes:
|rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
|kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes:
|
|>>When criticised by Paul Harvey as blindly following Pat Robertson, Mr Pitts
|>>responded by saying that he'd never mentioned Pat Robertson, but rather
|>>only the name of Jesus, who Mr Pitts claims to serve.
|
|>>Very well then; please provide a reference to instructions from Jesus which
|>>support governmentally organised public prayers.  If you cannot provide any
|>>such reference from Jesus, explain why you believe that government-run public
|>>prayers are something Christians should support.
|
|I hope I'm not stepping on Mr. Provine's lines, but I too am
|interested in this question.  Mr. Pitts replies:
|
|>I did not say nor to my knowledge does the movement want GOVERNMENT-RUN 
|>PUBLIC PRAYERS.  There is a difference - you take it to an extreme - the 
|>request if for a time period for prayer - NOT government-run public prayer.  
|
|When asked a straightforward question, Mr. Pitts evades it with a
|quibble about whether the government would really be running the prayers.

No you quibble - I don't advocate goverment-run prayers in the sense that
others on the net seem to think.  I think government can and should allow
for a time of organized prayer - not mandated officals leading in prayer.
There is a difference.

|When the government provides a space, and sets aside a designated
|time, for the express purpose of public prayers, it is certainly
|organizing public prayers. 

I think volunteers can do the organization.  There are plenty of offical
sponsors for the other activities on campus.  Every group has a sponsor
and I don't think it would be a problem to get one from the school
staff or at least from a concerned parent.  These people would/could
assign a place for each group who would want to pray.  As far as logistics
goes, it might be easier to do this before homeroom or the beginning of 
the day.

|                            Mr. Pitts was asked what Jesus said in
|support of governmentally organized public prayers.  What does he have
|to say in reply to this question?
|
|In a 300 line article, Mr. Pitts says *NOTHING* *WHATEVER* in reply to
|the question.  Nada.  Rien.  Nitchevo.  Zip.  Instead, he recites a

Maybe *NOTHING* is in the eye of the beholder and you missed it.
The Jewish religion in the time of Jesus was under Roman rule - they
were sort of the official religion of that region and the church answered
and appealed to Rome, as we see in the scriptures.  The whole of the
temple/religious activities was carried out with Roman approval, including
praying, which Jesus did in public.  The Romans didn't generally mess
with the Jews, but they let them operate.  The temple prayers and activties
could easily be said to be government supported.

|string of Biblical quotations, all of which show either that someone
|prayed, or that someone approved of praying.  Now no one disputes that
|many people prayed in the Bible, and no one disputes that the Bible
|approves of prayer.  The question had to do with Jesus' support for
|governmentally organized public prayers.  Mr. Pitts has used up a lot
|of bandwidth answering a question no one asked, and he has totally
|ignored the question which was asked.

Jesus supported prayer, but not prayer to be seen only by men.  However,
He did prayer where men could see him.  Jesus wanted people to pray
to the Father and not to be seen by men.  Jesus prayed in public.

|He writes:
|
|>Here are my scriptures - the are not all about public pray, but they
|>are about prayer - many instances of it.  
|
|But the question is about public prayer, so why waste bandwidth by
|including passages that aren't about public prayer?  And the question

Many of them were about public prayer - you missed them.

|is about *governmentally organized* public prayer, so why waste
|bandwidth by including passages that aren't about governmentally
|organized prayer?  And the question is about Jesus' support of

I am not for mandated public prayer, but government allowed public
prayer in schools - it shows we as a nation recognized the need to 
pray.  Mr. Provine was asking his question in response to my comments.
He is the one that tends to push the issue into the idea that allowing
for an organized time for prayer in schools is the same as mandating 
on all students an offically lead prayer by some potentially offending 
party.  I advocate a time for prayer and suggest that places for each
group of people who have similar beliefs should be or could be provided,
so as to not force anothers prayers upon an unwilling student.

|governmentally organized public prayer, so why waste bandwidth by
|including passages about how Saul prayed, and Daniel prayed, and Ezra
|prayed, and Elijah prayed?

Why limit it to the gospels and just what Jesus said while he was on
the earth?  We (Christians) believe the whole Bible is useful for 
doctrine, correction, encouragement, and rebuke.

|If you look through the list of Mr. Pitts' Bible quotations and
|eliminate those that don't talk about public prayer, and those that
|don't talk about government-organized prayer, and those that don't
|talk about what Jesus himself thought, how many remain?  None.  Not a
|single one.  Every passage Mr. Pitts cited is irrelevant to the
|argument.

You overstate.  See above.

|Mr. Pitts tells us:
|
|>There 300-350 references to prayer in the Bible (about 150 in the
|>NT) - these are recorded for us to see that people prayed....
|
|And that's what he has to say for himself.  To the question, "what
|does Jesus say in support of governmentally organized public prayer,"
|he replies that the word "prayer" is mentioned 350 times in the
|Bible.  Too bad the Bible doesn't mention the word "logic" more
|often.

The whole Bible is useful - Mr. Provine limited the question and I
believe he limited it wrongly, but maybe he had a purpose. :-)

|Apparently Mr. Pitts has one of those Bible search programs on his PC,

Yes, I do - it is QuickVerse 2.0.

|which can look for words like "prayer" and dump the passages
|containing it into a file.  

My friend, did you notice that there were less than (a lot less than)
350 scriptures listed.  Yes I could have dumped them all, but the
context, which maybe unknow to you, determined whether I included them
or not.  Public prayer is often recorded in the Bible and I noted many
of those instances.  Most of the other passages speak to how one is
to pray.

|                           Such programs are an invention of the
|Devil.  They discourage people from actually *reading* the Bible;

Reading and studying the Bible helps one to know the context.  Try it.
Remember that the Holy Spirit is available to those who believe and
He is leading and guiding us.  He also is there for those who do not
believe and He is convicting them of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

|instead, the software will look for keywords and regurgitate verses to
|"support" any position you might care to take.  If Mr. Pitts would
|stop playing with his PC Bible program and actually look at what it
|says, rather than at what words it contains, he might learn something.

If you'd like to show me where I miss understand the passages I cited,
then please do so - I'll be glad to learn the way of God, the Creator
and Saviour, more perfectly.  However, it is much easier to say I 
fail to know and understand the passages.  Which way did you pick?

|And he'd learn even more if he took a course in elementary logic.

Yep, attacking with blank statments like *NOTHING* and implying I
don't read nor understand is truly logical.  Present your case.

|Keith

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc