HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: meltsner@crd.ge.com (Kenneth J Meltsner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Conspiracy among Book Reviewers?
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:52:22 GMT
Reply-To: meltsner@crd.ge.com
Organization: GE Research and Development Center



In article <1992Aug17.163614.3542@desire.wright.edu>,
demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:

|>In article <1992Aug17.125442.1@vaxa.strath.ac.uk>,
ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes:

|>> A couple of months ago, there was an article in The Times on
|>> a 'cartel' among reviewers of literature.  Apparently, as the story
|>> goes, there exist 'families' (in the Mafia sense) of authors.  If
|>> an author belongs to a particular 'family', it is highly likely that
|>> his/her book will receive favourble reviews.
|>> 
|>> Does this occur in SF and Fantasy literature as well?
|>
|>	It occurs wherever there are critics.  Dis the critics and you will
|>find your releases ignored, no matter what you do: write, sing, etc.

My wife (Janice Eisen, a reviewer for Aboriginal SF) has been looking
for a book to review by a certain famous author that she could give a
positive review to, since she had a big, semi-public argument with him
about the nature of reviewing and reviewers.  She keeps trying, but is
unwilling to review a book by him until she finds one she likes*,
since a negative review would just reinforce his persecution complex.

And in regards to cliques or literary families, does anyone know where
my wife can talk to about joining one?  I'm sure she could use the
career boost.

* Likes, as in appreciates or recognizes as a good work, not as in to
her personal preferences.

===============================================================================
Ken Meltsner                        | meltsner@crd.ge.com (518) 387-6391
GE Research and Development Center  | Fax:  (518) 387-7495
P.O. Box 8, Room K1/MB207	    | Nothing I say should be attributed
Schenectady, NY 12301               | to my employer, and probably vice-versa
================ Materials and Manufacturing, World O' Stuff ==================
From: rgasch@nl.oracle.com (Robert Gasch)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Recommandation on Fantasy Novels
Date: 13 Aug 92 08:56:44 GMT
Organization: Oracle Europe

One author nobody has mentioned yet is Stephen R. Donaldson. I
really enjoyed his Cronicles of the Unbeliever. He manages to
create a complex world, relatively real characters and conjurs
up the strangest places without it seeming ridiculus. I
would recommend this one. The only drawback is that the series
is rather long (I found it worth my time).

Any other opinions?
---> Rob
From: aaron@space.ualberta.ca (Aaron Humphrey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Epic fantasy novels
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:32:37 GMT
Reply-To: aaron@space.ualberta.ca
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
: I strongly recommend, to anyone with a taste for epic fantasy, going back to
: earlier work--pre-Tolkien, that is. For example, Lord Dunsany's fantasy short
: stories and vignettes (I still recall a lovely tale called "Lazy Days on the
: Yan," about a journey down a highly mythical river). Or Eddison's The Worm
: Ouroboros, with prose so purple as to fade into the ultraviolet. A Voyage to
: Arcturus, author forgotten, was nonetheless highly memorable.

I got burned by the ultraviolet prose.  It's totally ruined me for Eddison's
work, and I doubt if I'll ever read The Worm Ouroboros again.

: You might also take a run at Beowulf, Gawain and the Green Knight, and as much
: Malory as you can gulp down. You will be amazed at how much the modern fantasy
: writers owe to their sources--it's like hearing the original Delta blues
: singers like Charlie Patton, and realizing they had most of modern rock & roll
: in their heads and throats.

I read The Morte Darthur a while ago, and was surprised at how much was in it.
If the events of that book were expanded to fit the style of modern epic
fantasy, it would have been a dekalogy.  The compression makes it harder to
read, IMHO, and I found the Grail quest quite confusing in his version, but
the heart of the Arthurian mythos is there.  Gawain and the Green Knight is
also good, if less epic...from a period when good poetry came not from rhyme,
but from alliteration.

Mind you, I've never listened to a lot of blues, but I like a lot of modern
rock/pop/alternative music.  So I'm guilty in that respect...

: The tragedy of most modern epic fantasy is that the readers have no sense of
: its tradition or context. So they can't really judge who's inventive and
: original, and who's peddling shit as Shinola.

On the other hand, I've encountered people who just don't like the older stuff.
My wife really didn't care for most of the Lord of the Rings, and would not be
able to get through Eddison or Malory.  She gobbles up Eddings and Hambly, and
a lot of romances...

There are always going to be those who want something easy to read, not
something deep, and aren't going to want to explore the history of the genre if
the earlier books aren't as readable.  And they're probably always going to be
in the majority.

--
---Alfvaen(a.k.a. Aaron V. Humphrey)
"There's too many clues in this room."  Gordon Lightfoot
Current Album--Bob & Doug McKenzie:Great White North
Current Read--Henry David Thoreau:Walden and Other Writings
From: lola@LUCID.COM (Lola McCrary)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Diane Duane: Wizard books
Date: 22 Aug 92 20:50:43 GMT


	From: v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey)
			
	Am I right in thinking these three WIZARD books are intended for
	young/adults?  And if they are, would I still enjoy them? (Duane addict
	looking for fix...).

Diane writes for young adults as if they are intelligent humans.  Most people
who write juveniles that way are also enjoyed by adults (me, for example).  By
all means read them, then try Susan Cooper, Edward Eager, C.S. Lewis (The
Chronicles of Narnia), E.L. Konisberg, Madeline L'Engle and Robert Heinlein
(mail me for specific titles, if you are interested).

For another fix, if you haven't already read them, read her Star Trek novels.
_The Wounded Sky_ and _My Enemy, My Ally_ are my favorites.

And, by all means, The Space Cops books (three so far) are great fun.

Lola, who will buy all Duane new in hardback.
From: ericg@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Eric Chris Garrison)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Go to alt.fan...we don't want you(was Re: rec.arts.sf.written FAQ)
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:05:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.Bt8voI.Dz0
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Aug19.181500.545@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> aaron@space.ualberta.ca writes:
>Perhaps something that should be added to the FAQ is something akin to the
>following:
>
>"Many popular authors are not held in high esteem by most of the r.a.sf.w
>crowd.  In particular, coming out with positive comments about Piers Anthony,
>Anne McCaffrey, or David Eddings is likely to stimulate responses on the order

>Go away and don't come back unless
>you have some _real_ SF to talk about.  Thank you."

/* sarcasm on */
Gee, what a great idea!  Yeah, and we can also add a list of all
the authors we *do* like to the FAQ.  Yeah, we can have only stuff
all of us like!  And I bet YOU know all the BEST, REAL SF there
ever was!  I nominate aaron@space.ualberta.ca to be the moderator
from now on, HE *obviously* knows his SF!  We'll talk about stuff
HE likes, and tell all those poor deluded schmucks to go to hell!
/* sarcasm off */

Look, this is a PUBLIC forum for discussing written science fiction
and fantasy.  Not just "real" SF.  Not just "classic" SF.  Not
just YOUR idea of what is good, not just what is MY idea of what 
is good.  I think it is awfully pompous of you to presume to 
decide what is not _real_ SF.  Why don't you create a newsgroup
"rec.sf.written.real" with a charter clearly defining "real SF",
and then YOU can go away and not come back unless you have some-
thing civil to say.  Thank you.

Eric

-- 

------
Eric Chris Garrison			      UCS Support Center
ericg@ucs.indiana.edu			      Indiana University
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: Rating the Hugo Nominees
Reply-To: dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Organization: UCLA, Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 06:26:19 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.214448.4262@clarinet.com>, brad@clarinet.com (Brad
Templeton) writes:
|> Consider as well that Dozois, the man in many ways responsible for the
|> trend away from hard SF, put "Walk in the Sun" in his "best of the year"
|> anthology.   (The only other nominee he put there was Perfect Morning with
|> Jackals.)
|> -- 
|> Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366

   Yes, and the story won the Asimov's Readers' Award.  And it may well
   win the Hugo.

   But it still seems mediocre, not just by my personal standards of SF,
   but even by what I see as the "hard" sf standard (Niven, Clarke, ...).

 - David

p.s.  I read Landis's "Ripples in the Dirac Sea" which won a Nebula
      in '89.  Again, it is a story based on an ok sf gimmick, but
      the execution and the writing is bad.  His use of "transfinite"
      math and Dirac's theory seemed like pure vapor to me.  And the
      `human interest' part was a sentimental bullshit.

      To see how shallow the story is, one should compare it to 
      "Schrodinger's Kitten" by G.A. Effinger.

 - David

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metamathician) - ===
From: dac@prolix.pub.uu.oz.au (Andrew Clayton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Yet Another Misleading Cover
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 13:00:11 GMT
Reply-To: munnari!labtam!eyrie!prolix!dac
FollowUp-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Keywords: 
Organization: More like Dis~, really.

In article <5451@transfer.stratus.com>, Jim Mann writes:

> In article <1b7aac91.ARN22a4@prolix.pub.uu.oz.au>  
> > 
> > The one I have that Whelan did [_Chanur's Homecoming_] is terrific.
> > The other ones I own have covers painted by different artists,
>
> Whelan did the covers for ALL the Chanur books except 
> the Kif Strike Back.  The Kif Strike Back cover was by
> David Cherry (C.J. Cherryh's brother, and a fine artist in

Even the British versions?

My _Kif Strike Back_ is a 1987 Methuen edition, with the cutesy
lions. I've lent out my copy of _Chanur's Venture_. The Whelan
cover is on the American edition of _Chanur's Homecoming_.

> Jim Mann            

Dac
--
munnari!labtam!eyrie!prolix!dac      David Andrew Clayton.           // _| _  _
  prolix!dac%eyrie@labtam.oz.au      Canberra, Australia           \X/ (_](_](_
        dac@prolix.pub.uu.oz.au      I post .
prolix!dac@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au            . . I am.             +61 6 290 2215
From: throopw@sheol.UUCP (Wayne Throop)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Yet Another Misleading Cover
Summary: a single data point
Date: 15 Aug 92 05:26:34 GMT

> From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
> Message-ID: <14124@mindlink.bc.ca>
> The cover of Greenmagic, my latest, doesn't do much for me; the lobster claws
> on the giant bear aren't much like *my* vision of the monster in question. But
> it seems to attract buyers in gratifyingly large numbers, so who am I to
> complain?

Hmmmmm.  Statistics don't lie, I suppose, but let me add a cautionary
note to the "buyers in gratifyingly large numbers" bit.  I noted that
Kilian had written it, and having enjoyed Kilian in the past, picked
it up.  The cover was so off-putting that I almost put it back unopened.
But I persisnted, read the blurbs, scanned at random here and there
in the book as is my wont, and finally decided to give it a try.
It was OK.

But the sale to *this* particular buyer was very nearly *lost*
due to distaste for that cover.  It's a good thing I'm not forced
to look at the cover when the book's open to read.  :-)

Just a single data point, I suppose.
--
Wayne Throop  ...!mcnc!dg-rtp!sheol!throopw
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rob@watney.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Mote in God's Eye (Sequel)
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 04:44:01 GMT

Paraphrasing demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man):
[the Moties couldn't have slipped out before the blockade, bacause there
 already was a taskforce there.]

In article <1992Aug14.233249.3844@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM
(Wilson Heydt) writes: 
>Are you sure it was a task force?  There were *tankers* waiting to
>refuel the _Lenin_ for the return trip, and a courier arrived to ferry
>Rod and Sally to New Cal, but I don't think there was a task force
>present.

I think that's correct.  (My copy's not here)

>>	Presumably they would stay there until relieved by the blockading
>>force.  (Or become part of it.)
>
>Why?  No blockade had been set up yet--it wasn't decided on until at
>least some weeks after the Motie 'embassy' arrived on New Scotland.

That doesn't follow.  The tankers _were_ part of the Motie expedition, and
therefore under Kutuzov's command. He might have ordered them to stick around.
(Or he might not, all I'm arguing is that we don't know at this point.)

SR
---
From: jsa5+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joshua M. Sabloff)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Elric Chronicles
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:43:24 GMT
Organization: Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written: 12-Aug-92 Elric Chronicles
Count Zero @uxa.cso.uiuc (157)

> 	Has anyone read Michael Moorcock's 'Elric Chronicles'? It looks
> fascinating but maybe someone can tell me if it is a waste of time...

Waste of time.  Poorly written.  No plot.  It's that simple.




-Josh Sabloff (jsa5@andrew.cmu.edu)
"Research physicists need Porsches too!" -- Oliver Wendell Jones
From: savoia@sw.stratus.com (Rick Savoia)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Melanie Rawn:  Next book?
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:53:50 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Aug19.133957.20494@newshost.unh.edu>, T_ADAMS@unhh.unh.edu (Tiffany   Adams) writes:
> Hi,
> 
> 	I've just finished "The Dragon Token" and am once again left
> hanging on the edge of my seat.  Does anyone know when the next book
> is due to be out?  
> 	Thanks in advance...
> 
> 			@>-->--- Tiffany
> 				 t_adams@unhh.unh.edu
\


Hold on!  Back up!  Wait a minute!!!!!  'The Dragon Token'???
Is that the next book after 'Stronghold'?  Did it just come out?
Come on!  'Fess up!  


Rick

========================================================
Rick Savoia

savoia@watts.sqa.stratus.com
rsavoia@beirut.sqa.stratus.com
Rick_Savoia@vos.stratus.com
Resav@PernMush

========================================================
From: xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Card: Maps in a Mirror
Date: 15 Aug 92 19:49:13 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <9208141139.AA03896@gemini> yishai@taurus.BITNET writes:

>Someone mentioned a while ago that Card's _Maps in a Mirror_ is not to
>appear in paperback.  However, I have just come across a set of two
>paperbacks titled _Maps in a Mirror_, vols. 1 & 2, published in the UK
>by Legend.

I don't know where the rumor that it wasn't to appear in PB came from,
but when the HC came out, Locus announced that there *was* going to be a
2 volume PB edition, but that the PB would be missing the last section
of the HC (the part with stories made into novels and Card's non-genre
short stories).

Sounds like Legend has been following the original plan.  I don't know
what gives with The Changed/Hanged Man.  That one left me perplexed.
-- 
Chris Waters    | the insane don't | NOBODY for President!
xtifr@netcom.COM| need disclaimers | Because Nobody's perfect!!
From: jmf@abacus.harvard.edu ( ghost )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Epic fantasy novels
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:16:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Aug12.211626.15988
Organization: DAS Purchasing, Harvard University

In article <14213@mindlink.bc.ca> Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>The tragedy of most modern epic fantasy is that the readers have no sense of
>its tradition or context. So they can't really judge who's inventive and
>original, and who's peddling shit as Shinola.

The problem, as my brother, newly aged 50, forlornly reports, may be that
there are people alive today who don't even know what Shinola is
(hey, I've never seen any actual Shinola myself, but I've been hearing 
about it all my life).
From: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Tragedy of fantasy? (was Epic fantasy novels)
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:30:03 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

>You might also take a run at Beowulf, Gawain and the Green Knight, and as much
>Malory as you can gulp down. You will be amazed at how much the modern fantasy
>writers owe to their sources--it's like hearing the original Delta blues
>singers like Charlie Patton, and realizing they had most of modern rock & roll
>in their heads and throats.
>
>The tragedy of most modern epic fantasy is that the readers have no sense of
>its tradition or context. So they can't really judge who's inventive and
>original, and who's peddling shit as Shinola.

     If that's a tragedy then it's one shared by all fantasy.  When Morte
Darthur was new the number of Malory's readers who also read epic poetry
written in Anglo Saxon was certainly vanishingly small and very likely zero.
     
     "Ninety per cent of *all* art is imitation of other art."

                                                 -- H. L. Mencken
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Go to alt.fan...we don't want you(was Re: rec.arts.sf.written FAQ)
Date: 20 Aug 92 03:14:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: blue.4978
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@pmax1.cis.pitt.edu

In article <57285@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> blumb@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Bill Blum) writes:
>In article <Bt8voI.Dz0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ericg@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Eric Chris Garrison) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug19.181500.545@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> aaron@space.ualberta.ca writes:
>>>Perhaps something that should be added to the FAQ is something akin to the
>>>following:
>>>"Many popular authors are not held in high esteem by most of the r.a.sf.w

	[writes very good FUNNY, tongue in cheek suggestion to point out the
anal-retentive attitudes of much of the writership of r.a.sf.w, ending with]

>>>Go away and don't come back unless
>>>you have some _real_ SF to talk about.  Thank you."

	[and going on to explain in more plain language how this nasty 
phenomenon plagues these newsgroups. Then Eric Garrison says:]

>>/* sarcasm on */
>>Gee, what a great idea!  Yeah, and we can also add a list of all
>>the authors we *do* like to the FAQ.  Yeah, we can have only stuff
>>all of us like!  And I bet YOU know all the BEST, REAL SF there
>>ever was!  I nominate aaron@space.ualberta.ca to be the moderator

	And proceeds to flame, flame, flame, having completely missed
the point of Aaron's post. Then Bill Blum:

>Well said, Eric.  Very well said.

	And proceeds to agree wholeheartedly with Eric...


	WHAT? Are the readers of this newsgroup THAT dense, that they
can't see a JOKE when it's posted? Aaron, my deepest sympathies for the
unwarranted flames you're drawing from the humor-blind philistines out
here...


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: Are the Moties us?
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 23:28:24 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Aug13.145900.4657@u.washington.edu> mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.201344.6642@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:

>[current social conditions select for larger, earlier families]

>>If I am right, we would expect the following effects....

>>1.  Women having children at a younger age
>>2.  More women having children without husbands [...]
>>3.  More premature births [...]
>>4.  Women having more kids

>>Comments?

>Three.  The first is that you're mistaken if you think infant mortality is
>not an issue today.  You're confusing affluent white America and Europe
>with the human species as a whole.  The vast majority of humans live in
>conditions where extra children, children without two parents to
>care for them, and especially premature children are unlikely to live.

Note, however, that conditions for even the poorest have improved
dramaticly in the past 50 years, or why do we have a population
explosion? 

>The second is that you're expecting evolution to work much faster than
>it actually does.  How long have we had effective care for premies?
>Maybe a couple of generations.  

How long have 8 month babies been surviving at substantially higher
rates?  Maybe 200 years or more.

Also, I always understood evolution as having two components.  

1.  Changes in the prevalence of various traits in the general
population
2.  The introduction of new traits into the general populations,

and that component 1 was often quite fast.

>Ditto for family
>size (my family tree has an 11-child family where half died only four
>generations back).

Sure, but I bet that was a lot mroe common 40 generations back.

>And the third is that humans, being sentient, do a lot of things that
>are not evolutionarily optimal.  Culture evolves so much faster than
>biology that it's almost immune to correction by natural selection.  If
>I decide I won't have 20 kids because I don't want to live in poverty, I
>won't.  Several tens of thousands of years of strong evolutionary
>pressure to do otherwise *might* breed this tendency out of my
>line,...

Well, I'm talking tens of thousands of years - after all the Moties
had much longer.

>but
>human society is just not going to be stable for tens of thousands of
>years.  Within a fraction of that time the natural selection is likely
>to change (i.e. the 'mother hunts' proposed by Niven and others to
>enforce population control).

In my original post I mentioned that things would have to break with a
transition to a much more dangerous society.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael Urban)
Subject: Re: >>>>SEX<<<< and Tolkien
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:11:57 GMT

C.S. Kilby once quoted Tolkien as saying that he had once written
a `sex story', but that it was not very good.

Someone (sorry, attribution forgotten) has suggested that the story
in question was `A Mariner's Wife', posthumously published.

-- 
	Mike Urban

	urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written