From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Sean's delusional nature 
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1993Jan8.022736.24911@midway.uchicago.edu> 
	<1993Jan8.164354.10007@ac.dal.ca>
Date: 9 Jan 1993 07:50:11 UTC

In article <1993Jan8.164354.10007@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In fact, you might say many of us have no choice but to act as if we have
>free will. :)

Keep the home fires burning ...
Or, Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves, Britons never never never
never shall be slaves! [Excluding colonies, local restrictions may apply]
Or, Oh Canada, glorious and free, if there's no game on tonight we stand
on guard for thee! [Now, which way is up on this foreign flag again?]

>I don't want to deny intentionality. But to say that _choice_ is
>a conscious act is just inaccurate.  Decisions _just happen_. 
>Otherwise, you'd have to decide to decide, and decide to make that
>decision, and that one, ad infinitum.  

Oh please, you artistic Dionysian types are so easily confused. Look,
let me tell you what Apollo told me once. He said, look Paul, and I mean
this in the most affectionate way, it's really very simple. Just *do it*!
Just look at the story of Gen. Patton. Those German philosophers tried
to prove that he had no freewill and should just hang up all those
stars. Did that stop G. Patton? Or Uncle Dougey MacArthur? No way! They
went right out there and kicked that commie butt! Heck, if an aging
film star could become the President of the You-nited States, you can
assert your Gawd-given right to freewill. The country's depending on you
son. Even if in your case it's one of those outlying eastern islands of
Maine.

>I say: we are neither free nor determined. We just are. Our thoughts arise,
>we don't know where from. Our intentions emerge, but why, we don't know.

If it don't come from the heart and the mind, stop throwing the peace
sign. Look, I've got a reputation to uphold here. I'm sticking with
freewill. I've made my choice. (<- beauty eh?) Say, that's a Rush song,
isn't it? Nana na na nana na na na nana nana, I will chose freewill. And
the words of the prophet are written on subway walls, concert halls.
Oops, wrong song. Salesman! [air guitar]

>Also, I don't think everybody acts as if they have free will. To say that
>is to say that everyone is deluded, because belief in free will is a
>delusion. I don't intend that in a pejorative way. 

Hey, I don't mean to be didactic, but I assure you that there are worlds
above and worlds below and there is absolutely no one in the world like
me. And I, perhaps I alone, do most certainly have freewill. And it
ain't fersale.

>A little test: compose a truly beautiful poem  within the
>next 10 seconds.  Can't do it? Heck, exercise your free will and do it!
>Still can't? You mean you have to wait until it _comes_ to you? 

Yea, right, no sweat:
Hey yo, big man, you're in my hood now
better straighten up before the gang says chow
we've seen your type come and we've seen 'em go
if you want us to, we'll take it real slow
let me tell you a story about my main man
yeah that's right, Indra, biggest-baddest in the land
[10 seconds, times up]
Now that is truly be-U-tiful! And I was just getting started.

>All thoughts, intentions etc. arise in the same way. They just come to
>us or they don't. "I didn't think of it" is a good excuse! Can you help
>it if you didn't think of something? No -- you just didn't. 

Hey, don't sweat the technique. Remember: Apollo: Just do it, Dionysus:
In Vino Veritas. The key is being able to switch from Apollonian to
Dionysian mode and back at the snap of your fingers. As long as your
time increment is small enough, no one notices. It's all slight of hand,
magician's illusion. How's that verse go? Through the darkness of futures
past, the magician longs to see, one chance odds [KJV-one chants out] between
two worlds, fire walk with me.

>Free will is a myth. A socially necessary one, perhaps, but still a myth.

Hey, wake up and smell the coffee, oops, that's like so five minutes
ago, huh? EVERYTHING'S A MYTH! I thought jah knew! Be seeing you!
From: seshadri@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:55:28 GMT
Subject: Re: #define fanatic
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA