HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: root@elektro.cmhnet.org (Charlie Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1:30p)
Summary: Bicycle Road Rights (Ohio)
Keywords: delta v, bike polo, faceless archetype
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:37:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: elektro.1992Oct13.153756.2533
Organization: Why do you suspect that?

In article <mellon.718913967@pepper> mellon@ncd.com (Ted Lemon) writes:
>prahren@pb2esac.uucp (Peter Ahrens) writes:
>>If we're going to bare our souls here, it is incredibly alarming and 
>>dangerous to approach bicyclists who behave as though oblivious to their
>>road environment.
>
>Yup.   I still remember quite vividly the time that I was coming back from
>

   ***    [    crash and burn description deleted    ]    ***


>On the other hand, it still pisses me off to no end when bicyclists stay in
>the middle of the road on descents even when they're on a straightaway.

*AAGGHHHHHHHHH*  I can't leave this alone any more!  Maybe California is
different  [ of course it is ]  but in Ohio a bicycle is a vehicle just
like all the rest - in the eyes of the law that is.  

When I'm on my bike I try to stay *real* aware of what's behind me, and
I also figure that the whatever 4+ wheeled monster behind me might just be
driven by a squirrel (4 wheel version of squid) - if there's not room for
them to pass safely, I don't get right over on the edge of the road which
might encourage a dangerous pass.  If there's not room for a pass, I'll
stay out about 2 or 3 feet from the edge.  Also, I usually let the cage
driver know that I know he's there, so he doesn't just think I'm riding 
in a daydream in the middle of the road!

Understand, I'm talking about rural two lane roads, that probably have
uneven edges.  If you are within a few inches of the edge, and 84 year old
Virgil in his land yacht decides to be safe and take his sweet time passing,
and then the road edge turns to shit you can figure which creek you are up.
Also understand, I'm riding tubular tires (sew ups) which are *real* fragile
when you do an off road excursion!


>Gr.   Of course, there's an easy alternative for bicyclists on 84 - just don't
>let anybody catch up to you.   A bicycle can descend 84 almost as fast as a
>motorcycle, and certainly faster than anybody in a normal car (obviously,
>certain sports cars are excepted here).
>

He's speaking about the death-wish crowd, of course.


>				_MelloN_
>--
>mellon@ncd.com						uunet!lupine!mellon


Charlie Smith   charlie@elektro.cmhnet.org  csmith@dsac.dla.mil  whois ces10
MOA# 52888, RA# 15633, DoD# 0709, AMA# 574722, Buckey Beemers 411, BK Ohio V
BMW K1100-LT, R69S, R27 and other even less worthwhile [ 2 | 3 ] wheel stuff

  [  TREK 2000, 19#, aluminum frame;  1 of less worthwhile 2 wheel stuff  ]
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,dc.driving,dc.general
From: oexmann@convex.com (Carla Oexmann)
Subject: Re: Commute, a beautiful morning...
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:20:01 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Oct5.182506.23004@csi.uottawa.ca> pete@aix1.uottawa.ca (Peter Hickey) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.115706.24258@linus.mitre.org> woycke@smiley.mitre.org (Daniel Woycke) writes:
>>I just had to let folks know about my commute this morning. I biked in
>>to work 15 miles and saw 3 deer, a fox, and a nice (not great)
>>sunrise. The only animals I tend to see while driving are dead. Isn't
>>this a wonderful reason to bike commute.
>
>Yes, I love the animals I see on my comute.  One day, I came
>quite close to a skunk.  That was fun.  How many netters have
>run into skunks while cycling?

I see them fairly frequently, since I'm a nightrider.  In late fall, the
crickets congregate by the millions under light sources like the lights
out in the parking lot, and the skunks come out to feast on the bounty.
The best sighting though was of a mother skunk and her four little 
babies ( skunklets ? skunklings ? ).

Other uncommon sightings on commute were raccoons ( my god, that's a
huge cat.... fat, too.  a stripey tail  ?  that's a raccoon ! ), 
coyotes, turtles ( which I usually rescue.  I did not rescue the snapping
turtle that was about 24" long. ), and great horned owls.

Ritual disclaimer : My opinion and mine alone !  Convex, as best I can tell,
doesn't have opinions, being a corporate entity...
Carla Oexmann        {allegra, sun, harvard, uiucdcs, ctvax}!convex!oexmann
Convex Computer Corp.  3000 Waterview Parkway P.O. Box 833851 Richardson, TX
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: matth@progress.COM (Matthew J. Harper)
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1: 30p)
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 16:40:20 GMT

markk@tcs.com (Mark Kromer) writes:

>In article <1992Oct6.154708.28091@col.hp.com>, arnie@col (Arnie Berger) writes:

>>The first few time that I took my bike with me to Palo Alto on business trips
>>I had wonderful rides on Skyline Blvd. Then I made the mistake of riding there
>>on a Sunday afternoon. I lasted about 5 miles. By the fifth mile my legs were
>>shaking so badly I had to get off. The reason? These crazy guys on these Ninja
>>motorcycles blazing by at 70 or 80 mph. 

>Arnie, if you're uncomfortable riding your bicycle in traffic, perhaps
>you should stick to bicycle trails.  Don't blame everyone else for
>your own problems.

>- )V(ark)<

  Oh bullshit!

  There's a big difference between being uncomfortable riding in traffic and
being uncomfortable when irresponsible squids (and others) scream by so intent
on burning up the road that they disregard anyone else on the road.

  I'm not against riding fast.  I'm against doing it irresponsibly.

-Matth
--
          Matthew J. Harper ! Progress Software Corp. ! {disclaimer.i}         
   God created heaven and earth to grow barley and hops. Now he homebrews !-)  
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
From: bgeer@javelin.sim.es.com (Bob Geer)
Subject: Re: Skunks (was Commute, a beautiful morning...)
Reply-To: bgeer@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 21:40:12 GMT

unglenie@ford.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:
>...
>If you ride RAGBRAI (Register's Annual Great Bike Ride Across Iowa)  you'll
>have the profound pleasure to encounter 115 or more skunks pedalling theirs
>tails off across the state.  We beasties also like liquid refreshments, food
>(the greasier the better), loud music, dancing, and sleep.

I drew the line when I saw Skunks hangin' out with the Armadillo's...I
mean, isn't inter-species cohortation actually a from of beastiality?

(Watch out for the Rogues...!!!)

:-)
--
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Date: 16 Oct 92 18:39:54 GMT
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Distribution: na
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <5432@gold.gvg.tek.com>, jimd@pequod.gvg.tek.com (Jim Delwiche)
wrote:
> 
[I wrote]
> >To signal while riding a bike means taking one hand off the handlebars, and
> >disturbing the balance of the bike -- as well as making yourself much more
> >vulnerable to losing control if you hit a pothole or something.  This is
> >worrisome if you're riding in close contact with cars and trucks, so I
> >don't do it unless there's someone I need to get the message to.  It's not
> >like driving a car, where you just flick the turn-signal lever.  I think
> >that in many situations I get safer streets by looking all around (which
> >also unbalances thing a bit) than by sticking my arm out.  Of course there
> >are also plenty of situations that do call for a signal, and that's when I
> >do signal.
> >
> >The whole point is that safety comes from knowing what the safest thing is,
> >and doing it -- not from mindlessly making hand signals for every single
> >move or coming to a dead stop at every stop sign.
> >
> 
> Signalling a turn is not only for your safety.

Duh, I knew that.

> It's also for the
> safety of those you share the road with, and also for the convenience
> of other drivers/riders.

Duh, I knew that.

> For example, let's say you come to a
> four-way stop where a driver is coming to a stop at the stop sign of
> the road entering to your right.  You intend to make a right turn,
> and, since you are afraid you might crash and burn if you take a hand
> off the bars, you just creep through the stop sign and make a right
> turn.  Whether you put your foot down and make a legal stop or not,
> this action has 'pinned down' the driver, since he didn't know you
> were going to turn.  If you had signalled the right turn as you
> approached the intersection, he could have gone on his way.  His
> reaction after you start out is, "<expletive deleted>!"

Duh, I thought I said "there are also plenty of situations that do call for
a signal, and that's when I do signal."  Yup, I did say that.  Didn't you
read that before you cooked up a long and detailed example of where you
think I would not signal?

> The argument that signalling takes a hand off the bars and is
> therefore dangerous is somewhat specious.  One could argue that if you
> are not able to take your hand off the bars and maintain control, you
> are not riding within your bike handling skills.

One could argue that, but then one would be making a horse's ass of
oneself.

Look, I didn't say that I'm "afraid I'll crash and burn."  I said that
making a signal entails some cost in stability.  If you ride a bike (which
I doubt) then you know that.

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Wow!
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: motorists
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:48:34 GMT
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Distribution: na
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <12OCT199213423626@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov>,
afdenis@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Stephen Dennison) wrote:
> 
> The second citation was a rationale for one paying more attention to laws when 
> one is more vulnerable. As it involves a certain amount of logical thought, 
> ... I wouldn't expect you to understand it.

Speaking of rationality and logic, when I am more vulnerable I pay more
attention to *safety,* not to laws.  That's what this whole argument is
about, isn't it?  Like most cyclists, I take as much responsibility for my
own safety as I can get my hands on.  I sure as hell don't count on obeying
traffic laws as a way of keeping myself safe.

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Wow!
Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.soc:561 rec.motorcycles:35792 ba.motorcycles:565
From: oexmann@convex.com (Carla Oexmann)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist...
Date: 13 Oct 92 02:45:20 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Oct10.195648.23814@unlinfo.unl.edu> aberigan@nde.unl.edu (A. Berigan) writes:
>jimb@access.digex.com (Jim Brooking) writes:
>>I use my leg(s) to point out hazards to riders behind me.  I dunno, maybe
>>it's a strange thing to do.  It's hard to see hand signals of somebody
>>in race-prone position on a sportbike.  8^)
>
>But still, remember that it will freak out a bicyclist, so it might be a
>good idea to allow more distance between your outstretched leg and the
>bicycle, lest the bicyclist panic and veer.

That happened to me once, and I interpreted it as " That lousy *&^%$ 
tried to kick me ! "  Since I was riding solo on a country road at the
time, I was seriously worried and started trying to figure what I 
should do should they decide to come back for a second round of cyclist
soccer.  Couldn't come up with any bright ideas, since anywhere I 
could go they could too, only faster.

Ritual disclaimer : My opinion and mine alone !  Convex, as best I can tell,
doesn't have opinions, being a corporate entity...
Carla Oexmann        {allegra, sun, harvard, uiucdcs, ctvax}!convex!oexmann
Convex Computer Corp.  3000 Waterview Parkway P.O. Box 833851 Richardson, TX
From: cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: HOV abolished!
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:56:56 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Oct15.200700.6066@netcom.com> tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:

>The _closest_ place I have _ever_ worked was
>15 miles away across a major city. It would take 2 hours to ride a bike
>through the city to get there. It took 1 hour to ride the Rapid Transit
>and walk to/from both ends. It took 22 minutes to drive.

You _averaged_ 41mph thru a _city_? If that's typical of US cars in US
cities I can understand the enthusiam for car driving. Here in the UK
you're lucky to be able to average 15mph thru a city in the rush hour.
-- 
Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,dc.general
From: CMSC28@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Mark Hickey)
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Organization: Motorola
Date: 8 Oct 1992 07:34:10 CDT

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
>>I ride sanely, and I obey the REAL rules of the road, i.e. the ones
>>motorists obey.  This means that at stop signs, if I can clearly see tat
            *snip*
>Who are you scaring?  The mother with the children in the car who just
>had to slam on the brakes at a green light or coming around a curve,
            *clip*

Flame wars aside, I for one will *always* do my best to break at
least one traffic law whenever possible....the speed limit!
Mark (on your left) Hickey
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles
From: douglas@netcom.com (Douglas Mason)
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1:30p)
Organization: Approach Software Corp.  Redwood City, CA  94063
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:31:18 GMT

In article <73120@apple.Apple.COM> thompson@Apple.COM (Paul Thompson) writes:

>Motorcyclists should give bicyclists plenty of room.  Bicyclists should
>move to the side of the road if a motorcycle is trying to pass.  Seems
>simple enough, but some motorcyclists will still pass too close to
>bicycles, and some bicyclists will continue to ride two abreast around
>blind curves.  Unfortunately, most of these offenders are not reading
>this thread.

I can't count the number of times that I've been driving home (I live in
Portola Valley) and have been caught behind bikes that are riding two and
even three abreast in the road, knowing that there are cars lined up behind
them.

I can see how the anger rises easily, although I would never try to force
someone off the road.  Just like how at the intersection of Alpine Road
and Foothill Expressway -- at a red light bikes will swarm all around you
if you are the first car in line, then at the green light they all take off
in FRONT of your car, when it seems as if there is ample room for them
to either A) all get on the same side of the road, or B) at least let the
cars pass by.

I'm not a real anti-biker nazi, but these are the things that I don't
understand and examples of some of the things that I am sure that others
get dangerously upset over.  I've seen the sneer that bikers give cars
that have to wait behind them, could it be that they don't relize that
they would be in second place during any type of accident?  While 98.2%
of the bikers are more than careful (much more than car drivers, sadly),
it is those remaining people that make car drivers so angry on Skyline
and the like...!

-Doug


-- 
Douglas Mason                                    douglas@netcom.COM
Network administration / software development    douglas@netcom.UUCP
Approach Software Corporation                    +1 415.306.7889

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles
From: karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish)
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1: 30p)
Organization: Mindcraft, Inc.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:10:32 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.203921.16224@netcom.com> douglas@netcom.com
(Douglas Mason) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.180019.14603@morrow.stanford.edu>
karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>>And by the motorcyclists who ride too fast on bikes that
>>are too loud, and who have no clue how their actions are
>>perceived by others.
>
>I can see that the speeding is a problem, but why on earth is a bike
>being loud a problem?  Seems like the noise at least alerts a biker that
>something is coming.  If they were completely silent, the biker would be
>all over the road and something would come out of nowhere at an unreasonable
>speed.

I was answering the question, "Why do motorcyclists have a
bad image with the public?", not "How can bicyclists keep
from being flattened by motorcyclists?".

People who live on Skyline and have to listen to
motorcycles all day are not much impressed by the
"loud pipes save lives" argument.

--

    Chuck Karish          karish@mindcraft.com
    (415) 323-9000 x117   karish@forel.stanford.edu
From: bob@cc.usu.edu (Bob Bayn)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: commute speeds and taxes, was Re: HOV abolished!
Date: 16 Oct 92 12:38:30 MDT
Organization: Utah State Univ

Chris malcolm was incredulous at Tom Kunich's commute dist/time claim:
> You _averaged_ 41mph thru a _city_? If that's typical of US cars in US
> cities I can understand the enthusiam for car driving. Here in the UK
> you're lucky to be able to average 15mph thru a city in the rush hour.

Chris, would you like to be taxed to the extent it would take to make
a transportation infrastructure in urban UK that would allow you to
average 41mph in a city commute?  What DOES your govt do with all the
extra tax they collect on petrol over there?  
-- 
Robert Bayn                     o                Welcome to Cache Valley;
Office of Computer Services     \__^\=*  please set your chronometer back
Utah State University,USA     (O)""""o          20 years and ten minutes.
From: dxs@Unify.Com (Dale R. Shaver)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Date: 7 Oct 92 19:44:20 GMT
Organization: Unify Corporation, Sacramento, California

In article <casseres-011092095534@missmolly.apple.com> casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) writes:
>
>I ride sanely, and I obey the REAL rules of the road, i.e. the ones
>motorists obey.  This means that at stop signs, if I can clearly see that
>there is no conflicting traffic, I proceed without stopping.  The same
>applies to red lights when I am turning right.  I signal turns and lane
>changes when it seems necessary (which is not usual) and when I can safely
>take one hand off the bars (which is not always).  I also obey the REAL
>speed rule, which is "go as fast as you can without getting scared."

Who are you scaring?  The mother with the children in the car who just
had to slam on the brakes at a green light or coming around a curve, 
because you didn't have the patience or the brains to obey the traffic laws,
and common courtesy?
>
>I bring this up, for about the 3rd or 4th time this week, because people
>are always harping on the stop sign issue.  I'm really sick of being told
>to stop at all stop signs when in fact nobody else does.

Nobody else does?  Where do you come off saying something as obviously
incorrect as this?  You feel the need to rationalize your breaking of 
traffic laws, but don't do it on the back of those of us who respect
and obey those laws.  Whether I'm in a vehicle or a bike, I obey those
laws to the best of my ability because I know why they were made.

If you don't like a law, fight to change it; don't use the escape
of "everybody does it" because it just ain't so.

>--
>
>David Casseres
>Exclaimer: Wow!

Wow that you're still alive....
-- 
--
Dale Shaver, Premium Technical Support Engineer   Phone: (916) 928-6433
Unify Corporation, Sacramento, California           Fax: (916) 928-6403
dxs@unify.Com  or  {{ucdavis,csun,lll-crg}!csusac,pyramid,sequent}!unify!dxs
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: bgeer@javelin.sim.es.com (Bob Geer)
Subject: Re: HOV abolished!
Reply-To: bgeer@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:41:32 GMT

lous@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Lou Salz) writes:

>In rec.bicycles.soc, calvert@QueensU.CA (John Calvert) writes:

>    I am confused about the discussion against HOV lanes.

>- Of the few people who do use the lanes, many aren't in true High Occupancy
>  vehicles.

Can't stay out of this one forever!  Like, were`nt there
multiple-occupancy vehicle only lanes in California in the 70's?
Didn't some drivers put mannequins in their cars to make them appear
multiply occupied?  A humourus response to a good idea that became too
great an obstacle to get where you wanted to go.

>I've come to the conclusion that the only thing that will get Americans
>out of their cars is for operating costs to get so high that it hurts 
>real bad.  Until that happens, I'll just try to live near enough to work
>that I don't have to deal with the mess.

Unfortunately not everyone can afford to live that near to work.

What will get people out of their cars is a better form of
transportation -- cheap enough & convenient enough & quick enough.
All proposed alternatives have so far failed to fulfill at least one
of these 3 requirements for a majority of people requiring
transportation.
-- 
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: sims@possum.den.mmc.com (John Sims)
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1: 30p)
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics, Denver
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:27:01 GMT

jesse@eye.com (Jesse Lackey) writes:

>You know, something I've *always* wanted to do is come up alongside a
>bicyclist and give them a good hard shove and send them flying off the road
>into whatever.  I wouldn't mind doing joggers either, except they can dodge
>too well.  These people have to learn that roads are for vehicles, not people.

You know, somethine I've *always* wanted to do is to mount a nice rocket
launcher on my bike, so that I could pump a few rounds of H.E. into
arrogant motorists who think they personally own the road.  These folks
also seem to believe it is their personal duty to clear the road of all
undesirables; with undesirables being anything going slower than they.
This typical lack of regard for human life is amazing.  The very fact
that some else is traveling slower or is in a non-motorized vehicle
makes them less than human requires some amazing leaps of reasoning.

John
-- 
John Sims    sims@pogo.den.mmc.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles