HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: A Little of Everything
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:55:33 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Thomas wrote:

> For the last decade or better I have more or less followed Bertram of
> Beringtons advice given a few weeks ago, and worked outside of the SCA
> structure whenever my desires and the SCA's desires were not in complete
> accord.  I have gotten a lot accomplished...  And because I spent so much
> time without SCA sanctions, it took me 19 years to get an AoA, and I
> wouldn't be surprised if I never see any other award.  My poor wife is
> still unnoticed.  Thats because almost all of these tasks, each of which
> is probably worth of a Laurel in and of itself, was done without SCA
> sanctions.

It's difficult to interpret what you've written, Tom, since it is unclear
what you mean by "without SCA sanctions."  No one needs (or gets) "SCA
sanction" to do private arts or craftwork.  Do you mean that you have not
brought the results of your work to SCA events, or published it in SCA
publications, etc.?  If that is your meaning, I don't think it is
surprising that you have received no awards: All awards are for service to
the SCA.  We don't give Laurels to the members of top mundane early music
consorts, even though their skills, knowledge, and re-creative activities
are far superior to those of anyone in our organization, because they have
not contributed directly to the SCA.  The Laurel is for service to the
Society _through_ the arts.  

If this is not your meaning, I'd be interested to hear a clarification.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mew3@ra.msstate.edu (Mary E. Whiteman)
Subject: Basques
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:36:36 GMT



  In trying to document my name I found a reference to the use of 
"Iri+ other endings like art, etc." by the Basque people.
I'd like to research more about the Basque region in the late 15th
century.  Am I hopelessly off?  Are there any Basques in the Society?
Our library is rather meager and the only reference books are in Basque
or Spanish.  The reference I found on the name was in a book in French
which I could fortunately muddle my way through.
   Thank you in advance, a newbie who's trying to learn, iri

-- 
     -----,-----'----(@     This bud's for you!    @)----,-----'----
Mew3@Ra.Msstate.Edu                        Irielle Antonia di Perez
Irielle@Glia.Biostr.Washington.Edu         Shire of the Riviere de Sang
"starlight, starbright"                    Kingdom of Meridies
From: reichmann@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Authentic?
Date: 26 Jan 93 12:51:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: guvax.1993Jan26.175153.2141
Distribution: world
Organization: Georgetown University

In re: the constant battle over the definition of authenticity.

	Please, all of you stop and think about what you are saying!
	Try and recall the spirit in which the SCA is founded and in 
which we participate.  Authenticity, is a goal, the ATTEMPTS IN GOOD 
FAITH to be authentic is the reality.  Yes, obviously there will be a 
wide range of attempts, but to qualify them is to rate them and, 
frankly that is not what we are all about, or so I have been led to 
believe.  
	When someone asks about authenticity the best response, in my 
opinion, is to have that person do their best within their own ability 
and resources.  The more they research and work, the more "authentic" 
it would be, but this does not mean that someone who can't or even 
won't go through all the trouble should feel penalized.
	Sorry to lecture, but my feathers got ruffled!
		
				-Alyna Thomas (Debbie Reichmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: A Little of Everything, pt. 2
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:07:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.231556.24002@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>(largely) eliminating this practice in the East belongs to Master Johannes
>aus Nierenfels, who took the offensive against it as Tyger Clerk of the
>Signet, explaining the it was rude both to the awardee and to the scribe.
>At best, I may have repeated his lesson when the topic came up again.
>

Hurrah! He lives in my shire now and I'll probably see him this evening.
Maybe if I unloose the mighty terror that is Master Johannes upon the
Midrealm, he'll kill it here too!!! :)

Lothar \|/
        0
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pyotr@halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe)
Subject: Re: Medieval Village, Medieval Summer Camp etc...
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:38:07 GMT

A 'working model village' will run into many of the problems that
colinal williamsburg or Sturbridge village (Mass) does:
the temporal disruption of a continual stream of moderns;
not to mention the resources problem (was reading of an
attempt to build with 'period' methods a house at
williamsburg, and the problem they had in getting
the really big timbers: currently 6 inch dia is considered
big, then it was 'tad on the small side')

As to the SCA/Moderns interface problem, well that
takes on a number of complications.  Being part of
MacFlandry's Household Troop slash Regiment (one
'purely' society, the other the Civic events parade
unit) the usual split was that as a member of the Troop
one was 'Nikolai Petrovich in service to his adopted
clan a long ways from home, but that's another story ..."
in the regiment I was 'playing '365, a member of a
regiment of foot.  In the first instance I would go on
at length about how a mad russian monk wound up in
Scotland, blah blah blah.  In the second I would
explain that "this is pretty much what the American
Revolution was fought with, blah blah blah.'

Not saying it can't be done, but it causes some
mental side swipes.  How many of us wore our
garb to a mundane costume party and realized that
in garb you are 'person A' but the rest of them
are playing dress up?

hey, its role playing w/ one to one scale figures.
It's mostly harmless.

chus
pyotr

p.s.  When does he figure to start and what's the
chances for an apprentice woodwright finding a
master in the area??????

 

-- 
Pyotr aka Peter D. Hampe : eka pyotr@halcyon.com
Nothing says loving like a bun in the oven.
EOF
From: pwr@jab.tucson.az.us (Patrick Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Moving Narrow Focus" events
Keywords: Event, Theme
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 09:13:44 MST
Organization: Just Another Bbs. Tucson, AZ

Volfred quotes Thomas (etceterus...):
 
> 1992 Arizona Rennaisence Festival is over, I am going to explore the idea
> of a series of narrow focus events with a moving time frame.  The idea
> is to re-enact history "as it happens".   A series of events would be held,
> and each one would be a snapshot of a series of events in one "era" of
> history.   For example, we might have 10 feasts over a year, and the events
> would span the War of the Roses, Henry VIII's 6 wives, the 1'st crusade,
> the Great Plague, the little clash between John and his Barons, a few
> weeks in 1066, etc..

. . .

We have not yet met in person; nonetheless, I bid you glad tidings.
 
I offer my services as herald unto you for these grand events which you 
now propose.  The idea seems creatively fun, and it requires 
participation beyond the normal level of an SCA event.  This is much 
appreciated, I might add.
 
Keep me informed, such as you deem required.
 
  In service,
  Lord Volfred Thorgrimsson   (pwr@jab.tucson.az.us)
---   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ..   ---
  Pursuivant Extraordinary, Deputy to Black Boar Pursuivant
  Barony of Tir Ysgithr, Kingdom of Atenveldt
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Private heralds
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 01:20:10 -0500

And then David Greenebaum said...
 DG> On the subject of hire-a-herald for challenge tournies, how does this
 DG> practice jibe with the idea that a herald on duty is the voice of the
 DG> Crown?  At the very least, I should think that a herald delivering a
 DG> personal challenge from one fighter to another should be acting as a
 DG> private citizen, devoid of green tabard/baldric.

Greetings, Bjalfi!  I see you changed the spelling of your last name
so that it's pronounceable! (It used to be a lot more complex than
Thordharson, didn't it?)

A few Crown Tourneys back (where Lucan won), fighters were encouraged to
bring their own heralds for the later rounds of the tourney.  My lord
husband Marco, who is man-at-arms to Aethelwyn Aethelredson and the herald
for Aethelwyn's fighting unit the Golden Swarm, made a special tabard for 
the occasion.  It was quarterly vert and sable, the vert sections bearing
the crossed-trumpets badge or, and the sable bearing the locust or badge
of the Golden Swarm fighting unit.  Now, strictly speaking, that wasn't
quite proper, since the crossed-trumpets badge belongs to the King's
heralds.  However, the tabard says loud and clear to Joe SCAdian that
the wearer is a herald connected with "those guys with the bug badge."
It also looks way spiffy.  

I definitely think that heralds delivering private challenges should be
wearing the personal livery of the fighter they're speaking for, rather
than Official King's Voice clothing.

Yours &c.,

Ariane Baccadoro

... I heard the squeak of the Questing Beast.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 00:15:08 -0500 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Composite Baronies

Greetings good gentles,

I have a question about how certain kinds of baronies are organized 
around the Known World.  I'd really appreciate any feedback the
folk of the Rialto could give me about how things are done in
your area.

Some baronies have single, definite centers.  They can expand out
from them and spawn cantons and related groups, but they started
as a single group.  Other baronies are composites, formed by
alliances between shires that may be separated by 10-100 
miles.  I believe Flaming Gryphon in the Midrealm and
Windmasters' Hill in Atlantia are examples of the
latter type.

My question is this:  

  For the composite sort of barony, are the old shires that
  joined to form the barony usually maintained as cantons
  or are they disbanded and subsumed into a single baronial
  structure?

Most of the composite baronies I'm familiar with have opted
to turn their constituent shires into cantons, if only to
give people somewhere formal to "play" without driving for
miles and miles.  But perhaps things are done differently
in your area...  Let's have some fun with interkingdom
anthropology and hear about your area's customs.

Many thanks -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..." 
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: period fighting styles
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:14:38

|> 6) allow the knees and shin as targets.

 RC> As I mentioned, I'm not sure about potential 
 RC> longterm stress to the knee.  
 RC> Never considered whether feet were difficult to armour well.
 Actually, Duke Lloyd von Eaker claims that there wasn't as much of a  problem with knees being hit back when the shin was a legal target. 
 According to him, if you could take a leg by hitting the shin, you 
 were much less likely to hit the knee.  Currently a less-experienced 
 fighter is slightly more likely to hit you in the knee because you 
 don't cover your knee well when you drop your shield to protect your 
 thigh, and the l-e person is dropping their sword as you drop your 
 shield....
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re:Heraldic Questions...
From: pols055@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 22:41:37 GMT
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

As I beleif someone has already pointed out, one of the biggest problems with
promoting period style heraldry is that most designs that are simple enough to
be period conflict with the masses of period heraldry which also follows that
simple design. For example anything with a rampant feline as a single charge.
Many of us are familiar with the representations of row after row of arms that
look almost identical, differenced only by colour of the feline or the field or
even something as minor as a splt tail or a crown added to the feline charge
(the page I am thinking of is in the Oxford Guide to Heraldry but there are
others). Of course I can't register my black panther on a red and white barred
field! it conflicts with dozens of others. So my only option is to use unusual
charges, field divisions, etc so that it is different enough.

Maybe this is justified, maybe not. But it seems to me that we have to either
allow greater conflict and promote period designs, or allow periodicity to
suffer so as to protect uniqueness in armory.

Eleonora van den Bogaerde. Southron Gaard, Caid.
Simone Hindin, Christchurch, New Zealand.
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Authentic?
Date: 26 Jan 93 12:42:02 GMT


    Master Bertram wrote:

 DS> Once more I beg your indulgence and assistance.
 DS> I'm curious...  just what do people _mean_ when
 DS> they say something _is_ or _isnt'_ authentic?

 Master Sion Andreas and I, lo these many years ago, came up with a four
 bucket categorization: (1) a period thing done in a period way; (2) a
 period thing done in a modern way; (3) a modern thing done in a period
 way; and (4) a modern thing done in a modern way. We considered (1) to be
 in fulfillment of the "re-creation" aspect of the SCA, and (3) to be in
 fulfillment of the "creative" aspect of the SCA, but (2) and (4) were
 right out.

    Tadhg, Obelisk


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 08:42:42 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Esmeralda writes:
> 
> Another nice thing that started in AEthelmearc since its (practically,
> I believe) beginning, and spread over to the rest of the East is that
> the name of the maker(s) of the scroll is said in court. I'm sure there
> are other places that do or have done this. It gives a little recognition
> to the people that work sooooo hard to make a part of court look pretty.

I wish it was done in Trimaris.  Before the current reign, awards 
given in court were almost always Xeroxed blanks with the names and 
dates filled in by hand.  Now they're giving out *real* scrolls (and 
the Crown Prince has announced his intention to give out nothing BUT
real scrolls), but they don't even show the scrolls to the populace 
(something I grew accustomed to seeing in the East), let alone 
identify the scrolls' makers.

(This isn't just a case of sour grapes from a scribe; I haven't been 
called upon to make any court scrolls.  I'd just like to SEE the scrolls
as they're being awarded.)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    "The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality
    is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes."
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: timepieces
From: kgassner@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: 20 Jan 93 23:04:03 CST
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City
NNTP-Posting-Host: vax1.umkc.edu

Greetings!

> Dave Aronson asked:
> : >3. Does anyone out there know of any self-adjusting timepieces that
> : >would take this stretching and shrinking of hours into account?
> 
> I just purchased a device from the Franklin Mint that is very
> simple but seems to be relatively accurate (+/- 15 minutes),
> known as a Universal Ring Dial.

Yes, but as every other sundial, your Ring Dial is subject to the difference
betweem our modern, artificially designed concept of time and the time
indicated by the movement of the sun. This difference is called the Equation of
Time and varies between -15 minutes and +15 minutes and causes the "inaccuracy"
of your dial. Your dial is working perfectly well. The only way to compensate
for the Equation of Time is to adjust the dial every day for it.

	Ekkehart von Wartstein
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Holy Grail monk chant... help?
Date: 22 Jan 93 07:00:21 GMT


    Gwydion wrote:
 MJ> This is going to be a _very_ silly request, but here goes...

 MJ> Anyone know what the monks are chanting in Monty Python's The Holy Grail?

        "Pie Jesu Domine (thud) Dona eis requiem (thud)."

 "(Pius) Lord Jesus, grant them rest". "Pius" in Latin can have a number of
 different meanings, depending on context. When used of the gods (and by
 transference, here), it suggests "compassionate" or just "holy" in general.

 Obviously a prayer for the plague victims, probably taken from the "Dies
 Irae" sequence of the Mass for the Dead. The parallel fifths in which it
 is sung is why it sounds so authentically medieval ...

 (Surprise Mystery Guest: the Beach Boys. Go ahead, laugh, but listen to
 their latest and disregard the rhythm... eh? eh?)

    Tadhg


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: robear@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jay Michael)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Persona question
Date: 22 Jan 1993 02:19:04 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: happy.cc.utexas.edu

Since my persona was based in 8th century Charlemange's Empire, I was wondering
about a few specifics as far as the 'german'ness of the area.  Namely, was 
there anything that could be called 'germany' at the time?  An area of german
speaking people?  Charlemange's Franks seem to be the precursors to the 
French, so I don't know where exactly the germans fit in, if they're all
barbarians still, settling down,  . . .?  What is the state of the German 
language at this point?  My consternation arises from the unease I get from
saying AElfgar von Echternach from Germany, if indeed there really wasn't
a germany per se yet, or people who would be using 'von' for of.

Any insights would be welcome.  Please e-mail to robear@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu.

AElfgar von Echternach

Any opinions expressed herein do not reflect those of the University of Texas,
and in fact, I don't think they have any.  So there.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: awarding awards
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:26:11 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Aindreas wrote:

>    Rather than seek a royal herald, your local group might consider
> holding a small kingdom event and, after stating your case respectfully
> that it HAS been a rather long time since you have seen a crown in your
> area and there are many who might deserve some small recognition...

You are assuming that the royalty should visit every group, that it is
possible for them to do so, and that it is better for the award to come from
the Crown personally, rather than through an intermediary.

The first is a matter of opinion.  In some of the larger kingdoms, the
second is simply impractical.  The third is also a matter of opinion, and
several people have expressed exactly the opposite opinion, that an award
given by a good, local friend means more than one given by a distant,
anonymous figure.  

All these points refer back to the earlier discussion with William de
Corbie over how much we should focus on the Crown as the single significant
figurehead in our kingdoms.  As he noted, we could easily decentralize
royalty powers, and there would be significant advantages and disadvantages
to that change.  Like most things in the SCA, it is something that will
(and should) vary from kingdom to kingdom and from reign to reign.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Subject: Re: Authentic?
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
Date: 24 Jan 93 21:59:53 GMT

Unto Bertram of Bearington, and other Rialtans, greetings!
I excerpt Ld. Bertram, and comment as follows:

>When we talk about authenticity are we focussing on
>the distinction between L1 and "L0" (clearly modern)?
>L2 and L0 ?  L1 and L2 ?  L2 and L3 ?

	IMO, the line is drawn between L2 and L1; with L2, one can
at least admit that one is aiming for a realistic atmosphere, but L1
is a 20th century intrusion on an otherwise non-20th century thing.

>Can we spend a little time explaining to each other
>what we _mean_ by authentic?  I'd really like to know.
>We've built up lots of little "conventions" about what
>is and isn't authentic in different contexts.  In some
>fields critical published sources are dated 1650 or 1651.
>Because we can make the case that they're documenting
>styles that may well have been common half a century
>before we "accept" them as part of what defines 
>"authentic" in fields like cooking and dance.

	If those sources are all we have, then that's the best we can
do, unless <heaven forbid> we choose not to do those things, and take
away from a good deal of what we look for in a "proper" event. I hope
that as historians uncover more manuscripts, we can fill in the gaps.

>What sorts of things are closest to L3 and L4 these days?
>I see lots of _very convincing_ L2...  But does anybody
>really _do_ much L3 and L4 ?  I'm sure we make lots of
>compromises, given the difficulty of finding appropriate
>materials (or making them).  If L3 and L4 are as rare as
>I suspect is the L2 / L3 boundary a major "tension point
>as some people "raise the ante."  [It used to be that
>stuff that _looked good_ could get you a Laurel in many
>places -- now there seems to be a need to do at least
>_some_ L3-quality stuff...]

	Much as I admire people who are at level L3 or L4, I lack the
cash or time to afford to do either. The best I can do is L2. If
anyone can carry off L3, or L4, they deserve their just rewards that
we in the SCA grant them-AOA's, kingdom level awards, peerage, etc.
--
Mongols? What Mongols? I don't see any Mongols! 
                          -Yang the Nauseating 
 
Craig Levin/Pedro de Alcazar, Illiton, MKdm moonman@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca