HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mtimko@pdx066.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Mark Timko)
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Reply-To: mtimko@ichips.intel.com
Organization: Workgroup Computing Division, PDX, Intel
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 17:13:36 GMT

In article <59984@mimsy.umd.edu>, jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug31.124308.14389@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
|> 
|> You might think so, having some experience jumping.  But a student who
|> sees a rig for the first time only a couple hours before they put it
|> on and must be able to operate it in a high pressure situation with
|> extremely short time tolerance and with NO previous experience, its
|> a different story.
|> 
|> Hip mount ripcords are normally the International Orange pvc handles.
|> THis is good for future transitioning.  But IMO, as the student looks
|> down, they see their red (or orange) cutaway handle first.  If they are not 
|> paying attention, or if they don't look at all, they frequently go for
|> the first object resembling the r/c.  The orange/red cutaway may
|> be that object.
|> 
|> Perhaps a lime green ripcord or some other neon, contrasting color 
|> would lessen this type of confusion (if they look:-).

I think that the best way to eliminate the confusion is to first use
an SOS but also to combine it with a hip mounted rip cord.  This gives
the best differentiation between pulling the main and reserve. The Main
ripcord is shaped, colored, and located differently than the reserve 
(assuming an orange main rip cord and a silver SOS).  At the same time
the student will not have a difficult transistion to a throw/pull out
system later.  I'm surprised that SOS's haven't been phased into the 
BSR's. 

I would also argue that a hip mounted rip cord is easier to pull without
ducking your head and front looping.  To look at a hip mount (while in an
arch), you look mostly to the side and a little down, while a chest mount
almost forces you to put your chin on your chest. Add a little de-arch
and you've got yourself a front loop into a deploying canopy (I've done
it and it's not really fun tring to untangele your foot before your canopy
opens and breaks your ankle - I was lucky, I won).

Just my 2 cents worth.
Does anyone want to buy a used soap box?

- Mark Timko
  A-11659
-- 

                  Mark A. Timko  (mtimko@ichips.intel.com)
      My opinions are mine, not my employer's - all disclaimers apply 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 Never forget: A bad day skydiving is always better than a good day at work  
     Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left ..... right?
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: buick@belay (Patrick D. Buick)
Subject: Re: the best
Keywords: illegal? sue me
Organization: Belay Enterprises Inc. Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 15:58:32 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.183028.11532@leland.Stanford.EDU> eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello) writes:
>>>after i landed. luckily, when i dumped, there was plenty of blue
>>>sky left. even luckier :-) :-) noone was anywhere near me, so i 
>>>headed for the big puffy to my left!
>>
>>OK, time for a comment or two, and maybe a bit of a flame.  As a semi-jumper
>>and instrument-rated pilot, this stuff SCARES me!  This is the second
>>or third post in the last couple of days about jumping through the
>>clouds.
>>
>>I realize it's a kick in the butt (that's why I got my instrument rating!),
>>but, hey, if you're under VFR regs, please maintain VFR!  It's safer for
>>
>
>Just a side note: If you don't want a 170 lb slug on your wings, don't
>fly over the area's that have a lil' parachute symbol on your sectional!!!!
>
>I get irritated at the number of pilots that buzz the DZ's and they're
>NOT EVEN ON THE LOCAL FREQUENCY !!!!  Now that's being stupid.
>
>
>

Ya want stupid?  I just had an incident (actually a group of them) 
brought to my attention regarding an AirEvac Service I am involved
with.  Their branch to the North of my location has been observed
overflying a *LIVE AMMUNITION MILITARY RANGE* on the return trip,
presumably with patients on board.  This occurred at low altitudes.

Sheesh, talk about asking for trouble and ignoring warnings on 
maps...
-- 
==========================================================
Patrick D. Buick EMT, EET  | Internet: buick%belay@uunet.uu.net
Belay Enterprises Inc.     | Internet: buickp@cuug.ab.ca
Calgary, Alberta, Canada   | UUCP:...!calgary!pixel!belay!buick
From: rmfowler@landru.mtc.ti.com (Rex Fowler)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: first timer questions
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:36:06 GMT
Organization: Manufacturing Technology Center, Texas Instruments, Dallas


I'm about to take a 1-time tandem jump sometime within the next 
two weeks.   I know there isn't much training since there will
be an experienced pro attached to to me.  But, I would like to 
know some general things about skydiving(in tandem), such as:

	How popular is it?  Is tandem jumping a good thrill-seeker sport?

	How dangerous is it?  

	Other than the obvious, what type of injuries can result.  I
	picture the landing as being really tough with 2 people strapped
	together.

	For $50 extra I can have the jump video taped.  Do the videos
	turn out pretty good?

	Approximately how high will I be when I jump?

	How far and how long will I fall before opening the chute?

	I've heard someone mention that you reach a "constant velocity".  
	I though gravity would accelerate you at approx 32 ft/sec^2.  
	Does  gravity quit pulling after a certain speed?  What speed?

	Is there a FAQ for this group?

	If anyone reading this is in the Dallas area, do you have any
	recommendations on where/who to jump with?  Most of the companies
	have similar prices so I guess I'd like to have some other input
	on which company to jump with.

	Any other tips?

Thanks

-- 
Rex Fowler              Inet    : <rmfowler@landru.mtc.ti.com>
Texas Instruments       TI MSG  : rfow
Dallas Tx               Phone   : (214)995-4001
From: bob@pta.pyramid.com.au (Robert Vernon)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Big container, small canopy?
Date: 31 Aug 92 10:10:51 GMT
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation, Sydney

In article <1992Aug26.001420.8779@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
>I'm just musing about the possible failure modes that one might run into
>when combining a larger container with a small main.  Clearly, there must
>be adequate tension on the closing loop, else you run the risk of a
>premature opening.  And of course, a given loop can only be shortened so
>far.  Is that it, when asking the question of "will this canopy fit into
>this container?"

There is more to it than just the length of the closing loop.  A friend
of mine did exactly that about a year ago.  (Currently >3000 jumps, at
the time had not had a mal in over 2000 jumps, born with a ripcord in
his hand.  An absolutely terrific skydiver.  He must be because he told
me.  You know the type).

He used to have (damn I've forgotten), something like a Raven-III in
a suitable container.  Replaced it with something more modern, I think
a PD-150.  Packed up much smaller.  Adjusted the closing loop.  Looked
OK.  Within 6 months he'd had 5 mals, was totally gun-shy on every
opening and was about to toss the whole sport away.

After much head-scratching, including long long talks to every master
rigger in Australia and many videos of openings they finally worked out
the problem.

He was using a pull-out pilot chute.  Between the time of the pin pull
and when he released the pilot-chute (which with a pull-out is only a
fraction of a second), sometimes the bag would lift itself out of the
tray and beat the pilot chute skywards.  Result: bridle would wrap
itself around the lines and mal.  The more frustrated he got with the
system, the more violently he would throw the pilot-chute, which meant
he was more likely to shake his rig and the bag was more likely to lift
off early.

With a bag/canopy that fits the container correctly, the above is
extremely unlikely to happen.  A snug fitting bag won't lift out until
the pilot-chute and bridle is at full extension.  It also can't happen
with a throw-away pilot chute.  Its the first time I have ever heard a
convincing argument for a throw-away in the pull-out vs throw-away war.

>Clearly, this is something that I'm going to have to hash out with the
>manufacturer of my container.  But right now, I'm a long way from reaching
>for my checbook.  More in the random word association stage.  (Perfect for
>a post to rec.skydiving!)

In general you can use a small canopy in a largish container.  But if
its too small (like above) then you will have to make mods to the
container.  Padding the container, or tucking up the sides to make the
tray smaller are possibilities.  All changes can only be done by a
rigger and make sure that the TSO approval for the container allows it.
Since you intend to talk it over with the manufacturer you can't go
wrong.  (Except they'll probably try to sell you a new smaller
container which in the long-run is probably a good idea anyway).


Bob V!
From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: how often does this happen?
Date: 1 Sep 92 11:52:20 GMT

Reply-to: Paul.Stansberry@p0.f22.n233.z1.fidonet.org (Paul Stansberry)
Fido-To: romulus!umiacs.umd.edu!jerry

Monday August 31 1992, romulus!umiacs.umd.edu!jerrys writes to Skydive:

 >> In a perfect world I would want a SOS on all static line students and
 >> two handle for all freefall.

 rue> YUCK!  Put a SOS on all of 'em.  Let them learn the more dynamic dual
 rue> point cutaway procedures when they have less new material to master.

I have to agree with you here.  My wife is learning to skydive along with me,
but she had trouble holding onto the wing strut, and she blew her first arch.
No she is so concerned with doing things right, ie: the count, holding onto
the wing and looking at the JM, arching, landing, etc, that she keeps blowing
her arch.  For someone who has never even THOUGHT about skydiving, there is a
LOT to learn when you begin.  In short order, it all becomes so simple, but
boy, at first it seems like it is all so difficult.  I have only 4 S/L jumps,
to of which are PRCP's, and I have watched on chute get packed, and have
packed 2 chutes under supervision.  My wife has watched on person explain it,
but she is not ready for something MORE to learn.


Which brings up another topic.  I think students should only be taught to
pack a chute by ONE person, instead of several.  One person showed me, and
he packs a very clean chute.  But then he had to go up when I started my
own pack, and this guy does things different.  He still packs clean, but
did not worry as much about pinched material.  The second pack I did, was
overseen by a fairly new jumper (around 20 jumps) and had ran off several
times, (bathroom, get a drink, etc).  He had me do it a different way
alltogether.  He was NOT as concerned with tight lines, bunched most material
together, the tail section was put together sloppy.  I jumped that pack at
that time, and my lines twisted so much that I had to pull the risers and
bicycle to get clean, and that was only after grimicing(sp) when the chute
opened, felt like my legs were being pinched off.  Needless to say, it is
rather tender for me to sit down right now.  :-)


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From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 2 Sep 92 04:52:48 GMT

Reply-to: Bill.Caefer@p0.f853.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Caefer)
Fido-To: romulus!uoft02.utoledo.edu!dsouth

 r> agree that a TAS (Two Action System) aids the instructor by making the
 r> training simpler.  Keeping the student safe is the main criteria, and
 r> NEITHER system can show a historical advantage statistically in that
 r> regard.

I've been reading this thread and  thinking to myself, "What a bunch of ridiculous points have been brought up."  (and some good ones of course)


 r> Gear is standardized for safety.  Ideal gear takes the student through as
 r> few operational changes as possible.  If one looks at the better designed 

Absolutely.  Someone mentioned a rig with the ripcord on the left side.  Gaack!
Next thing you know, someone will be advocating (or making) a cross-pull.


You've been around a while I think.  All these new jumpers don't realize how god-awful the old gear was.  Even the worst designed student gear of today is maybe a 100 or even a 1,000 times better than the old war-surplus stuff was.  Safety is high these days.  Higher than it ever was.

There is very little to remember in the emergency procedures now.  The difference between SOS and TAS is so small it isn't really worth arguing.  And both are safe.

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--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

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From: drp40@cd.amdahl.com (Douglas R Puchalski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Lodi
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:55:20 GMT
Reply-To: drp40@cd.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale, CA

Somebody told me that the Parachute Center in Lodi was actually a non-profit
organization, and that when you pay them, you're paying for a "ride in a
historic aircraft."  This way, they get tax breaks?!  Can anyone confirm
or deny this?

-- 
Doug Puchalski						drp40@cd.amdahl.com
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (The Jumpin Dude)
Subject: Re: Turbine Caribou has crashed
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 05:10:51 GMT

In article <23597@alice.att.com> kroon@alice.att.com (Peter Kroon) writes:
>
>Perry the owner of New Cal aviation and one of his pilots died
>in an crash of one of their Caribous.
>This was the Caribou that has been equipped with turbine engines.
>Apparently it flipped on its back during take-off, and crashed.

any clue as to the cause of the flip?? did it flip nose up??


>Beside the loss of these lives, and will probably lead to the loss
>of Caribous to the sport of skydiving. Directly affected will be
>the Herd boogie (they are securing other planes), and the world
>record attempt.

oh now how can one crash (of an apparently extensively modified aircraft)
result in the exclusion of all similar aircraft from the skydive  world?

>-- 
>Peter Kroon  D-12374
>
>phone: (908) 582 7000 
>Email: kroon@research.att.com

tim
From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Why is 25-100 jumps a dangerous transition time ??
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:23:02 GMT

Reply-to: Paul.Stansberry@p0.f22.n233.z1.fidonet.org (Paul Stansberry)
Fido-To: romulus!stout.atd.ucar.edu!n

Tuesday September 01 1992, romulus!stout.atd.ucar.edu!nws writes to Skydive:

 raue> P.S.  Please don't tell me to read the Sept. issue of Parachutist....
 raue>       I've been trying to join USPA since early July without success....
 raue>       I've called several times and although the people have been real
 raue>       pleasant, I am still waiting :-(

I'm listening, what trouble are you having?  I will be joining probably this
weekend or next.  It is after my first Hop-N-Pop right?


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Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (The Jumpin Dude)
Subject: the best
Keywords: illegal? sue me
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 04:25:38 GMT

we had really strange weather today; pretty blue skies for the 
first early bird Beech load, solid ceiling at 1,200' 5 minutes 
after i landed. luckily, when i dumped, there was plenty of blue
sky left. even luckier :-) :-) noone was anywhere near me, so i 
headed for the big puffy to my left!

WOW

i couldn't even see my own main. which is red, black and yellow.
it was quite like i'd died and gone to heaven. it literally took
my breath away. not even my first jump compared to this. my best 
RW was trivially uninteresting compared to this. my heaviest acid
trip, maybe, but i discourage acid use. my piercing exploits were
intense, but this flight took the cake. easily one of the top two
experiences of my life. if i'd died there, i'd have been content.


Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Subject: Re: Boogie Ad
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 09:38:45 GMT

Looking at this, I realize that a few points may need some clarification.

>AIRCRAFT: Chuck and the Beech. There will be room in the beech for six
>passengers. The cost is S30.00 for the round trip. If possible, those who
>fly out to the lake may be eligible to jump upon arrival. This will be
>coordinated.

The six passengers is for the ferry trip out to the lake.  A normal load for
this aircraft (a hopped up twin Beech C-18) is 12 skydivers.  It typically
takes about 18 minutes to 10,500 AGL, starting from 5200 MSL.  T'aint a
Westwind, but it's a good sturdy craft.

There might be some PC-class water gear available for rent, especially on
Sunday.  A local jumper is charging all of $7 for rental & pack.  (Both
main & reserve!!)  It's going to the AAD fund.  Supplemental (refresher)
water training will be given on site, but if I you haven't had pool
training before then, you're out of luck for the water jumping.  There
should still be plenty to do, though.

Finally, my OCR software translated all of the dollar signs into capital
Ss.  Presumably you figured it out.  :)

Blue Skies,

(Any hints on getting a stand up right out of the plane door?  I tried it
today, and really didn't hit it at all.  I think went head down a bit and
just ended up going belly stable.)

-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |        USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |            DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        |
Support the League for Programming Freedom  (info from league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
From: pvf@alantec.com (Paul Fries)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:38:43 GMT

> rlcc> The RSL (Reserve Static Line) is a system (also called Steven's system,
> rlcc> I think) is another set up where you have a bride joining your
> rlcc> reserve handle to the main parachute riser above it. Once you cut away,
> rlcc> and as you fall away from the main, this pulls your reserve handle for
> rlcc> you.

>Again I am new to the sport (only 4 jumps on SOS), but RSL sounds risky,
>I guess it is a proven system?  Hmmm, that may have been a dumb question,
>I would think it would HAVE to be proven to be used.  :-)

Let me add a slight clarification.  The RSLs that I have seen
are not attached to the reserve handle.

There is a bridle attached to the end of a main riser (usually
the left main riser).  The bridle enters the container (one way
or another) and goes to the area of the flap that covers the
reserve pins.  There, a french link (the oval shaped metal loop
with a special nut that closes it, also often seen joining the
risers to the suspension lines) is attached to the end of the
bridle.  The reserve ripcord (steel cable(s)) go through the
french link, as well.  Thus, when the main is released
(cutaway), the bridle/french link pulls the reserve pins by
pulling the cable(s) under the reserve closing flap, not by
pulling the ripcord handle.

The system is simple and difficult to mess up.  It is also
nearly completely concealed when the rig is packed.  It is well
out of the way after main deployment, and is unlikely to be
activated accidentally.
From: bonitz@ebony.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Bob Bonitz)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: the best
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:40:45 GMT
Organization: UC Davis  Robotics Research Lab

In article <699.2A9D1D7E@ehsnet.fidonet.org> SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE) writes:
}
}There was a good example of a hook turn at Quincy.  A cameraman did a
}hook turn into a dumpster, shattered his right leg, lost a knee cap,
}a couple compound fractures.  My wife and i did a tandom jump that day
}and decided to continue on in the sport and learn to skydive.  However
}we will not be doing any hook turns.

Now here is a case of an experienced jumping setting a excellent example for 
the novice jumper by aptly demonstrating the dangers of low hook turns!
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 23:43:42 GMT

>>
>>>Turns out, the sequence of events leading to the first AFF level 1 fatality 
>>>(occured last month) began when the student mistakenly pulled his 
>>>cutaway handle instead of his ripcord.  (The student landed under a spinning
>>>reserve and later died of the injuries sustained.)
>>
>>Any clues as to the cause of the reserve malfunction?
>>
>No.  The sequence of events was sketchy and 3rd hand, so I don't recall
>all of what was said, and it could be inaccuarte too.  I *do* know it
>was confirmed an AFF fatality.
>

Ok, time for some more 3rd hand innaccurate info  :^)
I talked to a guy in Byron right after this happened, and he said
that the guy cutaway from his main.  They said they thought it
might have been an attempted suicide, as the guy was having 
some sorta severe financial difficulty (now this is how rumors
start!). Didn't hear about the reserve ride, because my first question
was : didn't he have an RSL/AAD on reserve, or SOMETHING?
From: bunda@cs.utexas.edu (John Bunda)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Turbine Caribou has crashed
Date: 1 Sep 1992 11:18:16 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: peaches.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Sep1.051051.6243@mercury.cair.du.edu> tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (The Jumpin Dude) writes:
>
>>Beside the loss of these lives, and will probably lead to the loss
>>of Caribous to the sport of skydiving. Directly affected will be
>>the Herd boogie (they are securing other planes), and the world
>>record attempt.
>
>oh now how can one crash (of an apparently extensively modified aircraft)
>result in the exclusion of all similar aircraft from the skydive  world?

Simple.  New Cal is (was?) the only major operator of Caribous in
this country that would let skydivers anywhere near their planes.
Even then, paperwork/FAA hassles (a long story in itself) restricted
Caribous to flying very few jumpers, which makes them not very cost-effective
jumpships.  The planes are relatively rare, the supercharged piston
engines are prohibitively expensive.  There are too many much more
economical jump planes (the Twin Otter comes to mind).  There are other
problems - a type rating and 2-person crew are required, for example.

There was a rumor that a Caribou was to be purchased by Spaceland in
Houston earlier this summer.  My understanding is unavailability of
insurance (in the wake of the Perris Otter crash) killed the deal.
IMHO, you'd have to be nuts to buy one of these things right now, let
alone fly jumpers with it, the crash notwithstanding.

The turbine-Caribou crash does not bode well for Caribous in general,
much less jumping from them.  New Cal made it work by operating a
fleet of them, and having a huge private inventory of spares.
Even if someone takes over the operation lock, stock, and
barrel, it's possible that they'd refuse to bother with jumpers, it 
never really made New Cal much money.   Especially if their inventory 
and planes are parcelled out and sold separately, Caribou jumps on any 
large scale may very possibly be a thing of the past.







-- 
John Bunda * bunda@cs.utexas.edu * {uunet,harvard}!cs.utexas.edu!bunda

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving