From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: The "his", "he" Issue
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 23:26:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.202143.18242@anasazi.com> best@anasazi.com (Mike Best) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.081735.8761@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:

>Don't stop there, a Hysterectomy should become a Hersterectomy.
>See?  This is what is at stake, the decline of the English language.
>The foolishness of following social whims to define the language is
>what we are debating and allowing minority special interest groups 
>such as feminists define our language is far from acceptable.

Nowhere have I suggested that we call a hysterectomy a hersterectomy.
I don't see how the strawperson (:)) that you set up makes the use of
s/he a decline of the English language.  How about plurals when
singulars should be used?  That has been used in the English language
since (and by) Shakespeare.  Does that mean the decline of the English
language?  

>I don't have any problem with the use of "she" or "her" except where it
>makes the language less precise.  If the use is clumsy or awkward I don't
>want to see it used, and this can be the case simply due to our culture.
>You may night like it but there are many cases where the use of "she"
>just sounds awful, and yes this is a cultural result since we are brought
>up hearing phrases and reading books which use the same phraseology.

Less precise?  But using masculines only doesn't make the language
less precise?

How does it sound awful?  Saying firefighter instead of fireman may be
awkward at first,  but when you get used to it (and see the courageous
firefighters who happen to be female), it's worth the effort.

>Only the Thought Police would seriously consider what effect the use of
>the male as the neuter has on the thoughts of our citizens.  This is 
>wholy un-liberal and yet the modern Liberals espouse it quite often.

Duh.  And only the most foolish would not seriously consider the
effect language has on the thoughts of people.  :)

What you are saying is that excluding by language 51% of the US
population does not have an effect.  If many whites get together and
say, "Since the US is mostly white, let's use the word white for all
US citizens.  African Americans, Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans
will be included in the word." would you be happy with that?  Would
you defend white as being a legitimate word since we've, by
definition, de-raced it?  Or let's say that this isn't a new idea, but
one that has been around 200 years.  Would you defend the usage by
tradition, by saying that "everyone, regardless of their color, knows
that they are included."?

This isn't a perfect analogy, but it comes close.

>Further, the presumption that the use of the masculine to represent the 
>neuter case is making us sexists is incomplete.  This theory does not
>address the possibility, for example, that the field of medicine is
>dominated by men or that nursing is dominated by women.  When someone
>mentions an NBA basketball player dunking the ball do you think of a
>black man or an asian?  We categorize by nature so the use of his or her
>is often more precise depending on the subject.

So, things can change, right?  If medicine were to become a mostly
female profession, we'd change the pronouns from masculine to feminine?
If nursing were to become a mostly male profession, we'd change the
pronouns from feminine to masculine?

If a population were to have more females than males, we'd change the
pronouns?

>People who use the female gender instead of the traditional male gender
>are denying their culture, purposely confusing the issue, and are 
>considered to be fringe activists.  In my opinion only of course ;)

Hey!  Language is only one thing I'm denying in our culture.  I deny
its homophobia, its racism, its sexism, its "Judeo-Christian
values"...

>PS. How about the changing of history to herstory?  Don't laugh, it's the
>    study of womYn's affairs.  Never mind that "histor" comes from the
>    Greek language and means learned or knowing.  This is the stuff that
>    makes the language less precise and is therefore wrong-o.

Every usage I've seen of herstory has made a play on the word.  It
points out how little we know of what women were doing while "history"
was being made.  Since history is usually taught and reported as what
the powerful men were doing, herstory tells what women were doing.