From: ashwin@osc.osc.com (Ashwin Honkan)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: 'Overrated' Tiny Tim
Date: 9 Dec 92 18:20:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Versant Object Technology, Menlo Park, CA

In Article: 15212 of rec.sport.basketball.pro, iacurtop@ERE.UMontreal.CA 
(Iacurto Paul) writes:

> HERE ARE SOME INTERESTING THINGS CONCERNING TINY TIM;

> 1 - A TRUE POINT GUARD DOES NOT TAKE TOO MANY SHOTS PER GAME

  Not always. Magic scored a lot when the others weren't clicking. Isiah 
  was his team's #1-#2 scorer during their championship seasons. KJ 
  scores a lot (#2 on his team) too. In fact, the rap on Stockton is 
  that he DOESN'T shoot often enough (considering he is a good outside 
  shooter). 

> Last year, Hardaway took a whopping 20 shots per game (1592 in 81 games).
> Those numbers were second in the NBA behind Mike (22 shots per game, or
> 1818 in 80 games).

  I suppose you know that Tim was #2 in minutes played (#1 was Chris
  Mullin) in the whole league. You should look at shots/minute instead
  of just shots/game. 

> The point guard's main job is to think pass first and score second.

  I agree that Tim does appear to think of scoring first, especially
  in the late stages of a close game. But I would rather have a Tim
  or a KJ willing to take over a close game than a Stockton who will
  only rake up assists.

> - his assist totals are "inflated" by the fact that most of his passes
> are to Chris Mullin, the best medium range shooter in the NBA (he never

  The Crossjammer has answered this already. Magic passed to Kareem,
  Worthy and Scott and Price passes to Daugherty and Nance and Hot Rod.
  Does that make them less great too ?

> 2 - HARDAWAY IS NOT A GREAT PERCENTAGE SHOOTER

< stuff deleted >

> 3 year average: .469

> He is no Kevin Johnson
> 3 year average: .498 - or 29 points better

  0.498 - 0.469 = 0.029, or 29 parts in 1000. Just calling it '29 points'
  doesn't change the facts. Besides, care to talk about KJ's lack of a 
  3-pt shot ?

> He is no John Stockton
> 3 year average: .501 - or 32 points better

  ... or Stockton's inability to take charge with the game on the line ?

> He is no Mark Price
> 3 year average: .481 - or 12 points better

  ... or Price's limited offensive and assisting ability ?

> Let's not forget that Hardaway is not a big threat for three point
> land either.
> 91-92 .... 127 for 376 or .337 or mostly misses

  Welcome to reality. NOBODY who shoots 3-pters regularly and frequently
  (Adams, Ellis, Petrovic, Rice, Scott, Porter, Price, Maxwell etc.)
  has an average > 0.4 from that range. Many are actually WORSE than
  Tim. 0.337 is quite a good % age from that range.

> Plus setting the all time NBA record for most consecutive missed field
> goals in one game (0 for 17) is a pretty dubious distinction.

  True. But remember that Tim gave 13 assists in that game and achieved
  the most important goal of a player: to win the game. Going 17 for 17
  and losing the game is not so great, is it ? In a game earlier this
  season, Isiah gave ZERO assists. To me, that's the most dubious
  distinction for a point guard. There are also many games when Price is
  out-assisted by Brad Daugherty.

>    Although defense is hard to evaluate by the numbers game, we do
> know that the Golden State Warriors allowed a league high 115 points
> per game last year (117 points so far this year).

  The Crossjammer has answered this one too. Do I care if the Ws give 
  up 115 or 117 ? Not if they score 120 and win 55 games (3rd best in
  the league, 2nd best in the conference). Detroit has a stifling
  defense that allows 80 pts, but what good is it if they score 75,
  lose 50 games and miss the playoffs ? You can't look at defense in
  isolation. BTW, Timmy leads his team in steals and is among the
  top stealers in the league. IMHO, that's a sign of a good defender.

< stuff deleted >

> JUST CAUSE HE HAS THE BEST CROSS OVER DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE IS 
> THE BEST POINT GUARD
  
  I am a Hardaway fan but even I wouldn't call him the best PG and even
  if he were, it won't certainly be due to just the 'Killer Crossover'.
  I think Stockton is the best 'pure PG'. But would I take Tim over
  Stockton or Price or KJ on my team ? You bet. And so would hundreds
  of thousands of fans who chose him over Stockton and KJ to start for
  the Western All-Stars last season.

> HE STILL HAS A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE BEING IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS
> MAGIC, ZEKE (A GREAT LEADER - 2 NBA TITLES) OR STOCKTON.

  I suppose you forgot John Paxon, who also has 2 titles. That makes him
  better than KJ and Price too, right ? And while you are at it, why not
  call Laimbeer and Cartwright (2 titles each) better centers than Ewing,
  Olajuwon, Daugherty and Robinson ? After all, a ring makes a person
  the best, doesn't it ? Well, my friend, basketball is a team sport.
  Neither Magic nor Isiah nor Michael would have won a title without
  their 'supporting casts'. So let's get over this obsession with rings.

  Questions like 'What if Magic were as small as Stockton/KJ/Tim ?' and
  'Would Stockton/KJ/Tim have won the titles with Magic's teammates ?'
  make comparisons between different players meaningless. Magic was one
  of the greatest and Stockton/KJ/Tim have the potential to be great. 
  Let's leave it at that.

  Now my own comments:
  Timmy is going through an up-and-down season, more down than up. Yet
  his talent is good enough to put him in the top 10 in scoring, assists,
  steals and 3-pters. He is 0-for-5 so far on game-winning possessions
  and has spent too much time dribbling and thrown up bad shots, instead
  of driving to the basket or passing to the best shooter, Mullin. 

  More than anything else, the Warriors are finding out how much they 
  miss Sarunas 'Rooney' Marciulionis. When he, their best penetrator and
  3rd best scorer, returns, watch out ! I think the Warriors are too far
  back to get homecourt advantage for the playoffs, but it will anyway
  be better to settle for the #7 spot and meet the winners of the weak 
  Midwest rather than banging into Seattle or Phoenix in round 1.

  Right now, it looks like a 27-55 season and a trip to the lottery !

Ashwin [Don't Stop The Noise] Honkan