HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carl.camurca@travel.com (Carl Camurca)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Carl
Date: 14 Oct 92 01:17:00 GMT
Reply-To: carl.camurca@travel.com (Carl Camurca)
Organization: Travel Online / St. Louis Online - St. Louis, MO

Shriek, I'm in the Headline!

BC>Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
BC>From: bc205cs@opie.bgsu.edu
BC>Subject: Re: Carl
BC>Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:20:12 GMT

BC>Thanks for the diagnosis Sigmund Freud how much do I owe you?  I have no
BC>inferiorty complex.  Just took a test in PSYCH 201 did'nt you? Like I said m
BC>perceptions of non black females that date interracilly are based on my
BC>experience.  It's that way in my home town Cleveland and it's been that way
BC>from coast to coast.  By the way I spent some time in the military so when I
BC>say coast to coast, I mean coast to coast.

Which coasts? I could add the French Atlantic coast and the US
American Atlantic coast :-))

I did not question your experiences or conclusions. But I want to
suggest, that there may be other reasons you couldn't see.

BC> I thought the main reason for this news group was to give constructive
BC>critcism, not to call people dumbasses, so please let me give mine.

I'm sorry, if you thought, I was "dumbassing" you. This was and is not
my intent. Some misunderstandings might derive from my "language
challenge"

gruss, Carl.

 * OLX 2.1 TD * Live long and prosper
                                                                                                               
Xref: sparky soc.culture.african.american:9791 soc.culture.caribbean:1495
From: mtitus@umsa.umd.edu (Marvin A. Titus)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.caribbean
Subject: Nobel Prize Winner
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:49:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: umd5.15968
Organization: University of Maryland System Administration

I posted this earlier, but appearently it did not make it. So, here it
goes again:
>Prize in literature.  I am sure that many of you know that Derrick
>Walcott is a famous Afro-West Indian poet, playwrite, author, and
>painter.  He is origianlly from Trinidad and teaches at Boston
>University. (I am sure some of you Trinies would be able to fill us in
>on the specifics) 
>
>In any case, as an Afro-West Indian, I am extremely proud of and happy
>for Derrick Walcott.
From: brs@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Blanche R. Steppe)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Black Policeman in Milwaukee suburbs
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:36:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: murdoch.1992Oct16.163636.3002
Organization: University of Virginia
Originator: brs@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU


   I ran across this article in the November, 1992 issue of Emerge
   magazine.  I'm posting it here without permission.

   ************************************************************************

   And He's on Our Side

       In some of Milwaukee's wealthy white suburbs, police stand watch late
   at night for drivers with violations.  And guess who gets nearly half of
   the tickets?  You brilliant, cynical readers, you.  Yes, black folks.

       An investigation in Whitefish Bay, known in the community as "White
   Folks Bay," found that three night-shift officers seemed to be singling
   out black motorists at traffic stops, according to the _Milwaukee Journal_.

       But police say any motorist can be ticketed anywhere for driving with
   a burned-out headlight or something else wrong with his car, even if he has
   been driving with such violations for months.  It's just, they say, that in
   the suburbs they have time to write the tickets.

       Even if these guys have time on their hands and are issuing 27 to 44
   percent of the tickets to black folk, who comprise only 1 to 6 percent of
   the population, it makes reasonable people like us wonder.  But there's
   no need to waste good paranoia on this one: George Lasley Jr., a black 
   police officer in the area, had this to say to the Journal.  "Being a
   black officer in a predominantly white community, if I see a vehicle
   occupied by one or more black males and the vehicle is a beater, I will 
   follow them.  They may have a right, being Americans, to travel anywhere
   in this state they choose, but in my profession they're suspicious."
   Come on, now.  He did acknowledge your rights as Americans.

   ************************************************************************

    Blanche

    P.S.  I nominate George Lasley Jr. for the TOM OF THE WEEK award!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: hans@iesd.auc.dk (Hans Huttel)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty, for or against?
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University
	<HANS.92Oct7152635@ravn.iesd.auc.dk> <BvrtrA.JI4@NCoast.ORG>
Date: 8 Oct 92 11:28:28


In article <BvrtrA.JI4@NCoast.ORG> by cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher
Morton) wrote:

> I said and reiterate that there are some people who are just EVIL.
> You may not want to admit this, but it is nevertheless true.  Of
> course you may be able to rationalize the activities of a Klaus Barbie
> or a Charles Manson....

Of course I think murder is appalling! It is obvious to me that
Cristopher Morton has not understood my argument. He does not deal
with cause [what causes the existence of crime?] but only with effect
[there are mass murderers and rapists; you can get killed in prison].
His only answer seems to be: There are criminals, so we must do away
with them. 

Still, I see the following as an attempt at some sort of explanation
of the existence of crime:

> WITNESSES?  Other non-fatal victims?  Do you allow for proof AT ALL?  Your 
> argument seems a nonsequitor.  WHY are some people CRIMINALS?
> Perhaps because they commit EVIL acts, called CRIMES? 

So there are at least two different explanations:

a) People commit crimes because of their nature (criminals are
   criminals simply because they inherently evil)

b) People commit crimes because of a number of different factors. 

The first explanation seems to be the one that Christopher Morton
subscribes to; I find it very simplistic. If it were true, then we
would reach the absurd conclusion that African-Americans are the most
evil people in the United States!

Moreover, it is certainly not a consequence of the second explanation
that one should condone crime, nor does it imply that criminals should
not be punished.

> If you want to abolish the death penalty because it can be use for political
> purposes, why not imprisonment too?  Haven't you ever heard of
> Andrei Sakharov or Aung San Syuu Ki.

I certainly have. I am a member of Amnesty International. 

> Never, since it isn't true.  What you are REALLY saying is that it doesn't 
> solve ALL problems.  You haven't provided an alternative that does,
> and won't. Killing a murderer stops him from killing again,
> ABSOLUTELY.  Once AGAIN, if you have evidence to the contrary, please
> present it.  Perhaps Clive Barker can turn it into a novel....

I cannot single-handedly provide everyone with a fair and just penal
system. What I _can_ do, however, is point out that capital punishment
does not solve anything; it can certainly only make things worse. 

--

I do not want this thread to degenerate into a shouting contest.

- Hans
--
Hans H{\"u}ttel                          - hans@iesd.auc.dk  
Mathematics and Computer Science
Aalborg University, Fredrik Bajersvej 7E,
9220 Aalborg, DENMARK                     Ad slagne veje ?
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Pessimism
Date: 8 Oct 92 14:40:14 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <1992Sep29.170119.1020@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:

# So why are whites so racist against blacks but not against Chinese?

My guess is that it's because blacks are co-conspiritors in
maintaining the mythology that keeps blacks and whites apart.

Especially when battered by the ideals of the Enlightenment, Europeans
had to develop rationalizations to justify the massive slave trade
they were involved in and living off.  What they did was develop a
pseudo-scientific mythology, which said that races varied not only in
intelligence but in character, beliefs, etc.; that whites were at the
top of this variation and blacks at the bottom; that current culture
was indicative of intrinsic ability of a race; etc., etc.

Other races in America have been as reviled as blacks for a generation
or two at a time, and sometimes only in certain areas -- the Irish,
the Chinese in the West, Mexicans in the Southwest, etc., etc., but
the idea that these people were *essentially different* never
permeated society.  Eventually they all became part of the society
that had earlier rejected them.

But our society, including blacks, still maintains that blacks *are*
essentially different.  It is only of blacks that we (blacks included)
say "if you're part black, you're black".  Blacks are the only group
of long standing in the US that does not marry outsiders with any
frequency.  Only blacks feel a need for a separate pantheon of
cultural heroes and historical figures.  And it is basically only
blacks (joined by feminists in some cases, who are probably basing
their rhetoric on black models) who take seriously such concepts as
racial consciousness and racial guilt.

I suspect that fear of the unknown and different is a human instinct,
but that this fear is fairly easy to break down if not reinforced in
some way.  In our society I believe that the rhetoric of separation is
maintaing the fear of "the other".  In other words, "It's a black
thang, you wouldn't understand" -- a creation of white racist
intellectuals of two centuries ago, but now accepted as fervently
among blacks as it ever was among whites -- is both the product of the
past and the guarantee that the future will be more of the same.

David
From: dc4l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dean Calloway)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Pessimism
Date: 14 Oct 92 16:01:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.Qer=HVi00Uh_Q7elEw
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from mail: 14-Oct-92 Re: Pessimism by David A. Johns@elm.circa 
> I didn't know this part of your story, but I'm glad you mentioned it.
>  
> Don't you agree that most blacks are just as adamant about "perceiving
> you as black" as whites are?  I acknowledge that whites started this
> whole game, of course, but that means little today.  How do we end it?

Actually, I don't know that its possible or desirable.  I think that
human beings are inherently distrustful and fearful of those different
from them, or outside of their group.  If this is true, then we're
stuck. 

The grander aspect to this question, however, is should this be
something we push for?  I would venture that our problems are not in
recognizing the differences among ourselves (for, in truth, God made us
each different... unique... and thus special...) but in our perception
of these differences in a negative light.  Being black is not a problem
with me; being perceived as "less than" BECAUSE of my skin color is.

A "color blind" society somehow strikes me as a society devoid of our
appreciation for ourselves as human beings.

DCAL
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: dem@engin.umich.edu (Darryle E Merlette)
Subject: Re: Spike vs. Liz Claiborne
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 17:54:07 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

Gabrielle Daniels asks about an alleged Liz Claiborne quote:
>I'm asking if anyone's heard the story, or other
>versions of the story; or happened to see the Oprah show, or
>heard/saw both, to say a few syllables about what they think.

I seem to remember some anti-Black comment from one of the
big-shots in the fashion industry a few years ago. I don't think
it was Claiborne -- for some reason the woman who heads the
Ford Modeling Agency comes to mind. I'll see if I can dig up the
exact details (but I'm making no promises 8-)
	Darryle
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Af-Ams in the U.S. Military
Date: 10 Oct 92 10:17:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <1992Sep30.001408.27526@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:

# The Gulf War was an example of how the armed forces have become a
# haven for the economically disadvantaged. There were so many black,
# Latino/Chicano and women in this Army (and not a few gay folk). One
# brotherman said it right off, there aren't any jobs, so it was
# either the Army or the streets.

This has been true for many many generations, and not just for blacks.
When I was in the Army ('61-'64), a very high proportion of career
noncoms were black, Appalachian, Puerto Rican, etc.  The military
offered security, a safe place to raise your kids, an education of
sorts.  Even people who were not lifers could get a decent technical
education and a head start upon return to civilian life.

Balanced against these benefits was a very small chance that you might
get killed or seriously injured in military action.  Most people who
have received the benefits will agree that the risk was worth it.

Note that this is an entirely different issue from that of the
draftees who were shipped off to Viet Nam.  Those men had no choice
and didn't get much in return for risking their lives.  But the Desert
Storm soldiers were all volunteers.

# . Both my father and stepfather have served in the armed forces.
# Usually that meant you got the GI Bill, which allowed for schooling
# to help you get a job later, and also helped on the down payment
# for a house.  So much for how Fed programs are too bloated, help
# like this was a leg up for young black men after WWII and Korea.
# Now, I believe, the Bill is gone. Correct me if I'm wrong, folks.

Well, I have a student in my class now who claims he was in Desert
Storm and is on the GI Bill.

David
From: carroll@cs.uiuc.edu (Alan M. Carroll)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Legally Black
Date: 16 Oct 92 23:29:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: m.1992Oct16.232935.7098
Distribution: usa
Organization: Technophiles Inc. - Engineers with Attitude

In article <1992Oct15.011730.1415@morrow.stanford.edu>, HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:
> This reminds me of the older woman from Louisiana several years ago
> who had nearly had a spasm when she found out, after ordering up a
> passport, that her birth certificate showed that she was black.  The
> woman was white as a piece of paper, so to speak, and was outraged.
> She went to court over it, because she wanted to be declared white,
> and lost. White husband, white children, etc.

I really have to ask - how could a court "declare" someone white? My
understanding is that there is no legal definition of race. I know
that's true in Illinois - is it different in Lousianna? What would
have changed for her if she'd won?

-- 
Alan M. Carroll          "Weren't there yams involved, too?" - J. Ockerbloom
Epoch Development Team   
Urbana Il.               "I hate shopping with the reality-impaired" - Susan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: femibyte@athena.mit.edu (Olufemi G Anthony)
Subject: Re: Interracial Dating
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:30:22 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.204205.10285@midway.uchicago.edu> tuff@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton) writes:
>>
>>PS - I don't let Whites impose any sorts of racial "duties" upon me.  I'll be
>>damned if I'll let another Black man or woman do so.  By far, racial "duties"
>>usually seem to be of a kind with the type the David Duke applies to Whites.
>>Sorry.  I'm not interested.
>>
>Exactly - and very, very true. If we can raise our sights to protecting our
>SPECIES as opposed to single cultural groups, I think that will be a sign
>that we have come into the heritage that so many of civil rights leaders and
>idealists have been hoping for for the past half-century or more.
>
>	Geoff Tuffli
>
>

I guess the Native Americans were all *idealists* and see how they got
f*cked over. Trying to be idealistic in a world that is harsh and real
is a recipe for suicide. I will not be colorblind in a world where most
people are not colorblind. I would be a fool to do so. Dreaming about
civil-rights, full equality,etc seems to be just that in America,dreams. They do not
translate into substance. I say that we black people stop dreaming, get
off our asses, and try to do something for ourselves, instead of
trying to make everyone (including ourselves) non-bigoted; that's the
only way we can gain respect in this country, : as people having
economic clout, not as pipe-dreamers.

Nuff said,

Femi.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: tuff@ellis.uchicago.edu (Geoff Tuffli)
Subject: Re: Apportioning blame
Reply-To: tuff@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:37:59 GMT

In article <37277@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) writes:
>
>What would happen if someone with a little money -- Cosby, Jordan,
>whoever -- set up an integrated training school and placement service
>for inner city kids?  Imagine being able to call an employer and say,
>"I've got a kid here who I can guarantee.  If he doesn't work out for
>one reason or another, I'll replace him myself.  And I'm available to
>provide further training, help mediate disputes, etc."
>
>David
>
In word, I think this is exactly what should be done, and for all people
in low-income, inner city areas; and not, by any means just by those
blacks who have "made it". This is the sort of program that has in practice
proved to be very successful.

Mostly, I feel that the most likely solution to work is a combination of
simple job training and, on a broader level, of self-esteem among children
as they grow up in such a situation.

Unfortunately, solutions such as this have not yet been implemented as
widely as they should, despite the success of such programs, among them
being the numerous job-training programs being experimented with on the
one hand and such programs as the Head Start program.

	Geoff Tuffli


Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall)
Subject: Word On X: Sensational
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date:  9 Oct 92 21:40:56 GMT


Exhibitors have been shown a working print of X and uniformly have
proclaimed the film sensational, although some have doubts about its
crossover appeal. Some were disturbed by the opening montage and most
thought the film overlong, with early biographical material getting
in the way of the story. But almost all said Denzel Washington, at
least, was a shoo-in for an Oscar nomination (one exhib quipped for
best portrayal of an icon), and if the film can pick up support in
other categories, crossover revenues will follow.

_______________________________________________________________________________

steven stovall
stovall@exeter.cs.ucla.edu
(310) 825-7307
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty, for or against?
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 09:54:47 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american

As quoted from <ISBELL.92Oct11135551@panther.ai.mit.edu> by isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell):

> cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton) writes:
> |> What I am trying to say is that the U.S. criminal system affects the
> |> African-American community disproportionately. For instance, there are
> |> more young African-American men in prison than in college. Does that
> |> mean that young Af-American men are evil ? A rhetorical question, to
> |> which the answer of course is: No! if I were to sketch an explanation,
> |> it would be based on the following two observations:
> 
> |What you seem to have missed is that CRIME affects the African-American
> |community disproportionately.  WHO commits this crime?  It isn't Serbian 
> |irregulars.  I'll leave it to you to figure out who commits these crimes 
> |against A/As....
> 
> Yes, well, this is besides the point.  Given a Black criminal and a
> White criminal who have committed the same crime, the Black criminal
> is more likely to be indicted, convicted, and spend the most time in
> jail.  This, I infer, is the point of the poster.

But he (as usual) offers no remedy, and in fact is apparently willing to see a
Black man spend the rest of his life in prison through the machinations of the
SAME criminal justice system.  He's not arguing for a better criminal justice
system, he's just arguing against the death penalty.  If NO innocent people had
EVER been executed or ever WOULD, he'd still be against.  His argument is 
merely an appeal to emotion with little factual basis, and a constant ignoring
of unpleasant truth.

Bottom line:  It's ok for Blacks to repeatedly kill Blacks (or Whites) and it's
ok to wrongly imprison Blacks, JUST so long as you don't execute them 
outright.  He can apparently live with prison violence (which he doubts
anyway).


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  

"Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?" 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels)
Subject: Re: Rating brothers and white guys
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:53:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.151333.10106@cbnewse.cb.att.com>,
ronaldd@cbnewse.cb.att.com (ronald.h.davis) denounces my
article <1992Oct13.223503.20176@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:

>>Rating some encounters with brothers and white guys.  Not any of
>>these cats are 10s and no names, to protect the guilty.
>>
>>
>btw, bill walton went to the stanford law school while i was going
>to school there (actually at the business school).  are you trying
>to say that you were doing the guy?
.
Bullshit.  I said he resembled the guy.  And no, I've never attended
Stanford.  The situations and the guys I spoke of occurred  over a
period of 18 years.
.
>what are you, a hooker?  "rating some encounters" you say.  what
>happened, you had insufficient bandwidth to transmit an all-inclusive
>list?
.
My, how the imagination runs wild.
.
Seriously, brother, don't sisters/brothers rate the men they go out
with?
.
>i mean, not that i wasn't moderately turned on by the explicit salacious
>details of your sexual affairs but this is the weirdest thing of this sort
>that i've read since the "thursday" [a now defunct mit student newspaper]
>incident in which fat pig roxanne ritchie, and gross twig sue gilbert
>[in a 2 page spread; obviously not the only "spreading that these two were
>doing] gave a rating of all the mit guys that they had done...and the newspaper
>published the guys' real names!  the incident made national news [i
>recall seeing an article in newsweek or time with ritchie's picture in
>it].  "thursday" was terminated shortly thereafter [i think the actual
>mechanics were that funding for it got yanked].
.
Give me a break. It was only salacious in your mind, dude.  You're
missing the point by a mile. And who are these women you are
equating me with?
.
>one thing that i've learned about people is that you can tell a lot
>about people from the kind of folks that they date (or whatever you
>want to call it); in which case, i have concluded that you are one
>fucked up chick...figuratively and literally.
.
Unfortunately, Mr. Soapbox, you don't know anything about me at all
to make such a grandiose judgment. I suggest you read some of Terry
McMillan's "Waiting to Exhale" to get a miniscule clue.  I don't
aspire to any halo you want to snatch away.  Some black women make
mistakes as to the men they choose; some black women don't know
about men at all. Does that make them whores?


Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american