From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:54:17 GMT
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet

dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
>I believe that the so-called "O-C-R" debate is ridiculous.  It is
>completely impossible for Conservative or Reform Jews to win such a
>debate, because those Orthodox who choose to flame are convinced that
>they are right and that there's no room for argument.  Any arguing
>must be done on their principles or it is rejected.

Let me see.  Conservative and Reform Jews DON'T think they're right?
And, of course, the Orthodox always win the argument?  Then why aren't
you Orthodox?

I think this is a cop-out.  I will always try to put forth "my side"
in this discussion.  Not to win, but because I do truly believe it to
be correct.  I much prefer having someone else on the court, though.
The fact that you spend the time to argue your case means that Judaism
means a lot to you.  We disagree fundamentally about what Judaism
entails.  I'll try to show you why your approach does not square with
mine; you'll try to show why you feel my adherence to the detail of
the law is unnecessary, according to yours.  [At least I hope you're
intellectually honest enough to view things that way.  Otherwise, you're
merely rationalizing a religion.]

This is soc.culture.jewish.  All Jews are welcome and encouraged to
participate, and at times be flamed.  If there is a preponderance of
Orthodox Jews in scj, perhaps that is an indication of an apathy that
exists among the non-Orthodox.  Or perhaps it's just that so many more
Orthodox have access to systems with ties to the net.  Or that, to
Reform and Conservative Jews, Judaism is not so integral a part of life
as it is for the Orthodox.  Or any one of a gazillion other possible
reasons.

Implicit in Orthodoxy is a belief that non-observance of the halakha
is wrong.  We can beat around the bush all we like in order to be
Politically Correct, but it doesn't change the fundamental belief.
Likewise, the Reform belief is that halakha is not binding, and is
therefore unnecessary.  Yes, it's fine if you want to do it, but
there is no requirement to observe.  That is saying that the Orthodox
are wrong in their fundamental belief.  Political Correctness allows
this, somehow, so we will always be on the defensive in such an argument,
as you may feel you are in any discussion of the Law.  As for tolerance,
I see much room for improvement on both sides.  I also see a need to
become a bit less sensitive, though that seems to take all the fun
out of posting to the net.

>So.  The best thing (IMO) is to ignore flames against Reform or
>Conservative movements, because you cannot argue with someone
>convinced he know's G-d's viewpoint.  Instead, just keep doing what
>you believe is just and right.  Don't let it get to you!  Most of the
>Orthodox Jews I know are a lot more tolerant than the few
>flame-throwers who stir up scj.

Look.  I've been flamed many times on scj.  Sometimes rightly, sometimes
wrongly (IMO).  I just keep coming back for more.  Partly because I enjoy
it, partly because I'm just plain stupid.  I much prefer engaging in
heated argument with someone I feel honestly believes what he/she is
saying than constantly trying to second-guess my opponent's true feelings.
You know mine.  Hit me with yours.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish