From: ali@utrcv1 (ALI BABA)
Subject: Re: Fundamentals WUZ Re: More questions for Anwar Saleh
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: United Technologies Research Center
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:50:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.235045.1688@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, aref@Tehran.Stanford.EDU (Modda'iyeh har hAzer va Vakileh har ghAyeb) writes...
>In article <1992Jul28.174419.5170@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> eshghi@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com
>(Kave Eshghi) writes:
>>>
> 
><condomology deleted>
> 
>>>
>>> If you find the above questions ridiculus, as I do, then refer to
>>> your Islamic teachings as discussed in "hallol_ma'sAel".
>>>
>>>-Ahmad AghA
>>
>>In case you think this is funny, let me enlighten you: 
> 
>In case you noticed, he does say that he finds the above mentioned
>questions/concepts ridiculous, not funny. Although I find them to be
>the source for many good jokes. If you have ever looked into these
>"hallol-masAel's" you will see his point too. Unless you are a firm 
>believer in the above concepts, in which case I apologize for being
>so forward, but I think your beliefs are ridiculous. 
> 
>>what you are
>>doing is providing grist for the mill of all the 'trendy' racists who
>>think Muslims are a bunch of fanatical half wits, to be forever kept
>>in check by force.
> 
>Are they not "a bunch of fanatical half wits"? Let me rephrase that. As
>with any other belief/religion/ideology/etc. there are people whose
>personal lives is based on certain guidelines and structure as defined
>by their belief/religion/etc. They adhere to those while refraining from
>imposing them on others. More power to those people. HOWEVER, from a 
>pragmatic standpoint, the present "Islamic" governments and rulers
>are "a bunch of fanatical half wits", not because of their belief
>or claimed belief in Islam, but because of their actions. I am tired
>of forcing myself to believe that "Islam is good, Islam is this, Islam
>is that. It is just that some believers because of whatever reason, commit
>acts or do things that are un- or anti- Islamic." Nonesense. From a 
>practical perspective it does not matter what Islam says or preaches.
>What matters is the lives and faiths that are affected by the Islamic
>governments, etc. I believe there is a lot of value in Islamic teachings,
>or in those of other religions for that matter, but when brought out
>into the society, the human implementors of the religion(s) royally screw
>up. Case in point: VelAyateh gerAmi, Iran. When and where did Jesus preach
>that the religious leader should live a high class life such as the Pope
>does, while there are hungry Christians/Catholics scrambling for food
>just to ensure an additional day of life??
> 
>In a way it is like saying Marxism-Leninism is good. Maybe theoretically
>it is wonderful. But you can't show me a single society who has benefitted
>from Marxism-Leninism. 
> 
> 
>>Let me remind you that making fun of people's
>>beliefs is the first step to treating them as subhumans who can not be
>>trusted with control of their own lives.
> 
>He is entitled to his opinions. Go ahead. You can make fun of his beliefs
>too. Not agreeing with someone has nothing to do with treating them as
>sub-humans blah blah. Everyone has a right to their belief. This is nothing
>personal. Please don't take it that way. Many people make fun of my beliefs.
>That's quite allright. As long as they respect my right to have those 
>beliefs, it is OK. I might or might not choose to ridicule their
>beliefs but I will sure as hell respect their right to live, have those
>beliefs and so on. And they sure as hell can do with their lives whatever
>they please. That's their business.
> 
>And come to think of it, the people running the country of Iran can not
>be trusted with the control of the country. Look at the long list of
>accomplishments. War, the dead, the handicapped people from the war, the
>refugees, the jobless, the ruins (cities) of KhoozestAn, ... The problem
>is within. The problem is with us. We have to change. We have to clean
>up our act. There are too many wonderful aspects to our culture to name,
>but in this day and age and in this world, we have goofed up. As individuals
>we do very well. As a Nation, we *WERE* a superpower (that is open to debate
>too, but let's just assume so for now), but now, we are a total disaster. 
> 
> 
>>In case you are so blinded by hatred that you cannot see the obvious,
>>remember this: if and when the US decides to bomb the hell out of
>>Iran, they will be using the kind of imagery and that you have provided
>>to justify their act: these were a bunch of camel fucking animals anyway.
> 
>Ahmad AghA's haggle with our resident HezbollAhi's has nothing to do with
>the US bombing Iran or whomever. Bombing/killing innocent civilians is 
>wrong, regardless of their opinions/beliefs. If anybody, it has always
>been the Iranian gov'ts for the past thousands of years 
>(as well as the present) who have always 
>believed that if someone does not share their viewpoint, their elimination
>is justified. What Iranian ruler has ever been fair??? When in our history
>have people been able to voice their opinions without getting somehow
>punished for it (with the exception of the several months immediately
>after the revolution, which was a total chaos and helter-skelter)??
>In school they taught us "AnooshirvAneh dAd-gar". What a joke. They
>said "shAh Abbas was great"; nobody mentioned the "sikheh dAgh" which he
>used to poke his opponents' eyes out. They said "ShAhanshAh is AryAmehr".
>hahaha. And then it was "EsteghlAl, AzAdi, jomhooriyeh eslAmi". And of
>course anything that ever goes wrong, it is the CIA's fault or Intelligent
>Service's fault or Mossad had a hand in it or no, it is "tablighAteh BBC"!
>As we all know, "goftA zeh keh nAlim, keh az mAst keh bar mAst". No foreigner
>has done to Iran what Iranians themselves have done. 
> 
>>
>>Shame on you.
>>
>>Mash Bagher
> 
>No Mashti joon. Shame on you. Are you afraid of telling/hearing the truth? 
>As a participant in an Iranian Affairs' conference put it, we have lived with
>3000 years of lies. It is enough. The sad reality is that we have simply
>screwed up. Maybe it is not your fault. Maybe it is not my fault. Maybe it
>is. Who knows. What we *DO* know is that we have a messed up country. Is
>it Nassereddin ShAh's fault? Is it Mohammad RezA's fault? Is it Khomeini's
>fault?? EITHER WAY, the end result is what we can see nowadays. The first
>steps to solving a problem are REALIZING, UNDERSTANDING and ADMITTING the
>problem. We are still haggling over "my belief is better than yours"
>and consequently "if I have the gun I will shoot you first because I know
>you will shoot me if you have it". That is how that country works. Disgaree?
>Fine. Give me examples to the contrary.
> 
>I have an eerie feeling that I have a zillion flames coming my way.
>Oh well .... 
> 
>Aref
> 
Dear Aref;
What the hell you are talking about? I read your article 5 times and I could
not get anything out of it. why just you tell us what's wrong with Islam or 
other religions and who is fundamental.

sincerely yours;

Ali Eslami

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