HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Instructional Technology Laboratory, University of Michigan
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:15:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.213845.3007@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1992Aug07.085102.4917@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:
>
>Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.

I suspect that the final release of the Windows NT end-user product will
be available on magnetic media. The developer's tools probably *won't*, at
least not the complete developer's tools. There's just too much.

Call the distribution on CD-ROM "RIDICULOUS," but wouldn't it seem
ridiculous (and aggravating) to receive the contents of the three CD-ROMs that
we received at the conference on nine hundred and four floppies?

There just isn't any other way that Microsoft could release this kind of
package, make it valuable, and get it out the door in a timely manner when
updates come. 
-- 
"It'sVerySad / toSeeTheAncientAndDistinguishedGameThatUsedToBe / aModelOf
DecorumAndTranquilityBecomeLikeAnyOtherSportABattlegroundForRivalIdeologies
toSlugItOutWithGlee." (from _Chess_). -potts@itl.itd.umich.edu-
From: jon@alpha.ee.ufl.edu (Jon Mellott)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:44:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: eng.1992Aug20.124433.3831
Distribution: na
Organization: EE Dept at UF

In article <1574@anagld.analytics.com>, sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn) writes:
|> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
|> 
|> >I write user-friendly software -- that kills people.
|> 
|> What OS?

If he told you he'd have to kill you. :)

Jon Mellott
High Speed Digital Architecture Laboratory (HSDAL == "hostile")
University of Florida
(jon@alpha.ee.ufl.edu)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: gregde@microsoft.com (Greg Demichillie)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:33:51 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

I just found a new utility on my system.  It's called FRED.EXE and it
searches an input file and if it finds the text "CD" or "CD-ROM" it outputs
200 lines of ranting and raving, mostly consisting of things like:

I CAN'T WRITE TO A FRIGGING CD-ROM


Sounds like a good addition to PETE.EXE!

-Greg


-- 
Greg DeMichillie          
gregde@microsoft.com      -- All opinions are mine, not Microsoft's -- 
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: wiegand@rtsg.mot.com (Robert Wiegand)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Reply-To: motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:07:36 GMT

mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>In <1992Aug17.231650.22852@msi.com> bill@snoopy (Bill Poitras) writes:

>>fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
>>: [And NT can't take a full CD-ROM (660 MB), either, unless MS is
>>: *GROSSLY* lying about how large a hard disk someone should have to
>>: install it.  The only stuff it seems to make sense to me to have a
>>: CD-ROM for is stuff that has like 500 MB of clip art.]

>>As soon as the cost of the floppies exceeds <cost of CD master>+$3.00/per
>>copy , then it makes sense to use CD-ROM.

>Let's be explicit about this.  It makes sense FROM THE MICROSOFT END,
>if there is no regard for the USER (you remember him -- the guy who
>buys the stuff?).

I don't agree. It makes sense for me too. The software manufacturer isn't
just going to absorbe the cost of shipping all those floppies. If the
floppies cost more then they will charge more for the software. The
CD-ROM drive is a one time cost versus paying a little extra for every
program you buy. If a number of venders start supporting CD-ROM distribution
us users could actually save money. Plus the CD-ROMs are much easier for
me to store than a stack of 20 floppies. Maybe you have lots of free
room to store all those stupid floppies, but I don't.

>-- 
>"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
> in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Wiegand - Motorola Inc.
uunet!motcid!wiegand
Disclamer: I didn't do it - I was somewhere else at the time.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: wallace@titan.trl.OZ.AU (Glenn Wallace)
Subject: Re: Microsoft's discrimination against the blind
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:23:39 GMT

leeda@comp/os/ms-windows/advocacyps.msu.edu (Dae Hee Lee) writes:

>crosoft is trying to discriminate the blind by preventing them from
>accessing the computer.  Microsoft has already developed some versions
>of MS Windows with GUI, and is now developing Windows NT. But they don't
>have any plan to enable the blind to access their software at all.
>  But IBM has already developed the screen reading program for OS/2 2.0
>and the Presentation Manager for the blind.
>  Microsoft is clearly making discrimination for the visually impaired.

I attended the Win32 Professional Developer's Conference in San
Francisco during July, and one of the handouts from Microsoft was a
white paper "Making Software More Accessible for People with
Disabilities", from the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

This white paper covers some aspects of writing applications for
visually impaired people.

While Microsoft are not themselves (apparently) doing anything in this
area, at least they are making developers aware (via the Developer
Relations Group) of problems and opportunities that exist in this area.

I don't see how them NOT undertaking development in this area is
discrimination. I'd suggest you remove that chip off from your shoulder
and look around the industry more and try and find people who ARE
working in this area.


Net: g.wallace@trl.oz.au | Please don't cut down the tall timber
IRC: HMMurdock           | Let it grow tall straight and true
RealTime: Glenn Wallace  | In this world we need tall tall timber
Work: Drift Project AOTC | Tall timber like me and you - Greg Macainsh
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: marklew@microsoft.com (Mark Lewin)
Subject: Re: Microsoft's discrimination against the blind
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:46:47 GMT
Organization: Microsoft

wallace@titan.trl.OZ.AU (Glenn Wallace) writes:

>I attended the Win32 Professional Developer's Conference in San
>Francisco during July, and one of the handouts from Microsoft was a
>white paper "Making Software More Accessible for People with
>Disabilities", from the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
>
>This white paper covers some aspects of writing applications for
>visually impaired people.

Yep.  I distributed over 3000 copies of this paper at the Win32 PDC.  
It's a copyrighted work, and I've yet to locate an on-line version, 
but if there's sufficient interest I'll try to get past these hurdles 
and put copies on ftp.uu.net and Compuserve.

By the way, Microsoft has some excellent people working fulltime to
coordinate activity at MS to make our products and services more 
accesible to people with disabilitities.  Over time, we will enhance 
our products to make them more accessible as well as work with the 
industry to try to assure a rich market of accessible products.  

More info on this will appear soon.

Mark Lewin
Systems Developer Relations Group
Microsoft Corp.
marklew@microsoft.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:59:50 GMT

In <vf0m=8+.timbol@netcom.com> timbol@netcom.com (Mike Timbol) writes:

>In article <1992Aug17.203142.18330@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>
>>I've installed bigger things than NT from floppies.

>Yeah, but do you consider it a good use of your time?

I consider it a better use of my time and money than buying a CD-ROm
drive just so I can load an Alpha of NT.

>> Also from TAPE
>>(which I think is a more reasonable choice, personally -- at least a
>>tape is useful to me for backing things up when I'm not spending time
>>reinstalling NT.

>Tapes deteriorate *much* faster than CD-ROMs.  Also, I suspect they
>are more expensive to produce and are a bit more fragile.  (How many
>times has your CD player eaten one of your CDs?)

I've never seen a computer cassette drive eat a tape, either.  As for
deterioration, just how long do you seriously expect NT to go
unchanged?  More than 5 years?  Then tape is more than permanent
enough.  Plus, like I said, I'll have some other use for the hardware
(as in backups -- remember backups?).  Try backing your system up to
your CD-ROM sometime and see how far you get. :-)


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1969 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4301
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:37:07 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug19.184820.949@terminator.cc.umich.edu> potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts) writes:
>Don't bet on it. I wasn't able to get my CD-ROM drive to work in a DOS
>session under OS/2. The scenario went something like this:
>
>OS/2: OK, DOS is starting up, so run AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS.
>
>CONFIG.SYS: chug, chug, chug, install, install, install...
>
>CD-ROM driver: Hello, system!  I'm a CD-ROM driver. What version of
>DOS are you?
>
>OS/2: Why, I'm not DOS, I'm OS/2 2.0!!!

Nope.  It returns: I'm IBM-PC DOS version 20.0

>CD-ROM driver: "Help!  Imposter!  Aaarrrggghhh!!! I can't run on *you*..."
>
>And, of course, I was unable to use the SETVER command because OS/2 does not
>support DOS 5.0 commands...

You can set versions.  Use the DOS_API_VERSION setting for the DOS box
to set versions.  Use it instead of the SERVER command.  

You can also boot DOS 5.0 into a VDM using a floppy or an image file.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: johnnyl@microsoft.com (Johnny Lee)
Subject: Re: Microsoft's discrimination against the blind
Date: 18 Aug 92 05:36:14 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1992Aug16.021337.25337@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> jarober@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (DE Robertson james an 410-740-9172) writes:
>leeda@comp/os/ms-windows/advocacyps.msu.edu (Dae Hee Lee) writes:

Gee, nice address...

>
>>crosoft is trying to discriminate the blind by preventing them from
>>accessing the computer.  Microsoft has already developed some versions
>>of MS Windows with GUI, and is now developing Windows NT. But they don't
>>have any plan to enable the blind to access their software at all.
>>  But IBM has already developed the screen reading program for OS/2 2.0
>>and the Presentation Manager for the blind.
>>  Microsoft is clearly making discrimination for the visually impaired.
>
>>Daehee Lee
>
[Stuff Deleted]

>MS is not discriminating - they are leaving the development of access 
>software to 3rd parties, where it belongs.  MS is out to make money, NOT

[Stuff Deleted]

From page 34 of the September 1992 Byte, in the Nanobytes section:
"...However, thanks to Window Bridge from SynthaVoice Computers
 (Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA, (416)578-0565), a new program that
 supports commercially available voice synthesizers, Windows
 applications can now be accessed via voice output by blind computer
 users."


J
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: rommel@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Kai-Uwe Rommel)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 21:51:39 GMT
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug15.213839.10127@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> rommel@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Kai-Uwe Rommel) writes:
>people, CD-ROM is the media of choice. It's so cheap to make, only about
>$3 per CD including cover! (Plus on-time mastering of perhaps a few
				  ^^^^^^^
>hundred dollars, of course.) I would really like to get all software on

Sorry, I meant one-time mastering of course.

Kai Uwe Rommel

/* Kai Uwe Rommel --- rommel@informatik.tu-muenchen.de */

DOS ... is still a real mode only non-reentrant interrupt
handler, and always will be.                -Russell Williams

Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (J. D. McDonald)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: UIUC SCS
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 14:10:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.010451.25474@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:

>>fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
>>: Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>>: count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>>: Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>>: this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>>: workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>>: Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.
>>

>Actually, this brings up a thought.  How many computers were there with
>disk drives 10-15 years ago.  Most of them used casette tape (PC's).

>(NOTE: use of PETE.EXE in previous sentence)

>It must have been really difficult for you to switch over to floppy disks
>from cassette.  The price difference was about equivalent to getting
>a CDROM.  The same can be said for Hard Drives.

>Would you have us still living in the world of cassette tapes for data
>storage, where load times were measured in minutes for even the smallest
>applications.

>People NOT upgrading to newer technologies is REDICULOUS, especially
>when it is cheaper in the long run.

>petesk@microsoft.com
>My Opinions...



The above posting is pure useless worthless gibber.

Now that I've got your atttention, let me note two points:

1) The poster is from Microsoft

2) A CD-ROM drive does not write, so it is perfectly useless for normal
   people who want to store their own data. It **requires** that you
   pay money to someone else for the CD-ROM

3) If people are going to buy, in quantity, a new very expensive drive,
   it had better write as well as read. Consider the Net optical drive.
   I'm not quite sure why it has failed. It failed Next because they
   tried to use it **instead of** an adequately fast hard disk.

Doug McDonald
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1889 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4112
From: mhuth@byron.u.washington.edu (Mark Huth)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 18 Aug 92 02:57:15 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

>As for calling you in the morning, no need to worry about that.  Does
>Microsoft have a training class where they teach people to be arrogant
>and overbearing, or is it something in the selection process when they
>hire you?

Gee, Fred...I really like the idea of having a cheap CD-rom drive from which
I can install my os's.  I hate having to churn through all 21 disks of os/2.
Lessee, I could also use the CD-Rom to access medical databases or library
materials or magazine articles or even medical journals.  Nope, I really like
the idea of having a CD-Rom. Heck, I'm delighted to hear that IBM is planning
to release os/2 on cdrom.  Sorry you don't like the idea...I'd think that with
all those machines, eand all that experience with operating systems you'd
like the idea too!  As for overbearing...... 

-- 
Mark Huth                         * Is it too wild to want to get into 
Mhuth@u.washington.edu            * Space someday?
Compuserve 70346,563              *
From: discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:27:37 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego

In article <1992Aug18.222203.9593@access.usask.ca> lowey@jester.usask.ca writes:
>
>The problem isn't that Microsoft is using CD-ROMS to distribute the
>software.  The problem is that Microsoft is ONLY using CD-ROMS to distribute
>NT.  The key word there is "ONLY".

I'm sure (but I'm only speculating) that when Microsoft releases the software
to the general public, they will distribute it in other media.  For now, I
suspect that since the pre-beta release of NT is to a limited audience...and
is subject to multiple mailings--Micrsoft finds CD cheaper than any other
media.  If the beta tester isn't willing to go the extra extreme of buying
a CD-ROM drive to install the software from, find a beta tester that is
willing to do that...
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1948 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4257
From: v053qpgh@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Eric W Sarjeant)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:12:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug15.213839.10127@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE>, rommel@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Kai-Uwe Rommel) writes...
>In article <1992Aug15.171159.18777@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>>> 2) A CD-ROM drive does not write, so it is perfectly useless for normal
>>>    people who want to store their own data. It **requires** that you
>>>    pay money to someone else for the CD-ROM
>>
>>This one is a valid point.
>....
>>My next toy is going to be a floptical.  A diskette that holds 100 - 200
>>megabytes and which I can write on seems much more useful to *me*, since
>>I can use it for backups as well.  And Pete's arguments about using the
>>CD-ROM for distribution of large amounts of software applies equally
>>well to the floptical.  As a developer, it means that it's easy to keep
>>all my source on it so I can keep my home and work machines in synch.
> 
>But for distribution of large amounts of data to a nontrivial number of
>people, CD-ROM is the media of choice. It's so cheap to make, only about
>$3 per CD including cover! (Plus on-time mastering of perhaps a few
>hundred dollars, of course.) I would really like to get all software on
>CD rather than on dozens of floppies. MS made a start, they deliver the
>Windows 3.1 SDK on a CD, IBM promised CD media for OS/2 and other stuff
>this fall. I really like that.
> 

Exactly, and this is the intended marketplace for CD-ROM. Using this medium
to exchange enormous amounts of data at a relatively low cost is highly
attractive for all involved.

Another very important consideration is reliability. None of my CD-ROMs
have ever reported bad sectors...there is a reason for this. Do you know
how discouraged a user gets when he/she returns to backup copies of large
programs only to find the disks have been damanged in storage?

Now your software is crippleware, it cannot be used and cannot be reinstalled.
Accidents do happen, but you should always be able to at least
partially recover.
==============================================================================
 Eric W. Sarjeant                    | "I am only too conscious that I have no
 sUnyaB                              |  claim to wisdom, great or small..."
 v053qpgh@ubvms.bitnet               |
 sarjeant@aol.com                    |
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 17:11:59 GMT
Distribution: na
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <mcdonald.208@aries.scs.uiuc.edu>  mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (J. D. McDonald) writes:
> In article <1992Aug15.010451.25474@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Ske
> >Actually, this brings up a thought.  How many computers were there with
> >disk drives 10-15 years ago.  Most of them used casette tape (PC's).
>
> >It must have been really difficult for you to switch over to floppy disks
> >from cassette.  The price difference was about equivalent to getting
> >a CDROM.  The same can be said for Hard Drives.
>
> >Would you have us still living in the world of cassette tapes for data
> >storage, where load times were measured in minutes for even the smallest
> >applications.
>
> >People NOT upgrading to newer technologies is REDICULOUS, especially
> >when it is cheaper in the long run.
>
> The above posting is pure useless worthless gibber.

No, he's got a point.

> Now that I've got your atttention, let me note two points:

Which of the 3 items below is *not* a point?  :-)

> 1) The poster is from Microsoft

Oh - this one is just flame-bait.

> 2) A CD-ROM drive does not write, so it is perfectly useless for normal
>    people who want to store their own data. It **requires** that you
>    pay money to someone else for the CD-ROM

This one is a valid point.

> 3) If people are going to buy, in quantity, a new very expensive drive,
>    it had better write as well as read. Consider the Net optical drive.
>    I'm not quite sure why it has failed. It failed Next because they
>    tried to use it **instead of** an adequately fast hard disk.

Also a valid point.

My next toy is going to be a floptical.  A diskette that holds 100 - 200
megabytes and which I can write on seems much more useful to *me*, since
I can use it for backups as well.  And Pete's arguments about using the
CD-ROM for distribution of large amounts of software applies equally
well to the floptical.  As a developer, it means that it's easy to keep
all my source on it so I can keep my home and work machines in synch.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy