HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: naam@cecer.army.mil (Ramez Naam)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: stats.ideas
Organization: US Army Corps of Engineers Construction Engineering Research Labs
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:27:00 GMT

apace@mta.ca writes:

>   Wow.
>   This is really good. Workable and realistic. It also makes it extremely
>easy to remove magic from the system.
>   I think that this should form the foundation of the net.rpg stat system.
>Perhaps a little farther down we should split into triplets to make things a 
>little easier.  
>   I'm also not so sure about Willpower. Maybe we should have social skills 
>in this position instead?
>   Anyways, I like the idea in general.  Nice idea, IMPO.

Willpower can be used in much the same way as Charisma would be (and
indeed, can be subdivided into Discipline and Charisma.  I just didn't
feel like posting the whole 16 stat version!).  If you remove Magic from
the system, it's even easier:

			All Stats
		Physical	Mental
	
		[Physical Stats remain the same]

			Mental
		Intellectual	Social

			Intellectual
		Reasoning	Discipline

			Social
		Personality	Dominance(Leadership/Charisma/whatever)

Where Personality is how likeable/amiable you are, and Dominance is how
forceful an impression you make on people.   

As for Willpower, I find it to be a very useful stat.  In my home-rules
game, characters often have to make Self-Discipline rolls to resist
mental effects, temptations, etc...  Willpower is also a great measure
of a person's overall staying power (with regards to physical exertion)
and their ability to master pain. (As shown in the wounds system I
presented.)


--
Ramez Naam
naam@terra.cecer.army.mil
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: apace@mta.ca
Subject: Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Reply-To: apace@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:44:43 GMT

	Well, I'll start off by relating how magic and psionics work in my
game-world, and then I'll go on to a discussion of the inplementation of magic
in general in net.rpg.
	My world resembles Rifts in a superficial sense - except that the
feeling of the world is more cyberpunk in it's view of corporations, morality,
etc. Plus, there are no dimensional gates.
	Magic is well understood and exploited force.  If anybody asks 
picky questions, I am quite happy to spout off pseudo-scientic nonsense about
the "magic" quark that is superficially similar to the up quark... you get the
idea.
	The idea is that all living beings must contain a certian amount of
these quarks within their nervous system. There is also a certian ambient level 
of these quarks in the surrounding enviroment.
	A mage has simply learned how to use the magic within their own body to
affect the magic outside of their body.  This ability is a bit of an intuitive
thing, sort of like complex math, and while it is possible to build
bio-computers that can weild magic, humans are generally much more flexible 
magi.
	Psionics, while related, is another kettle of fish entirely. 
Essentially, the "psyche" (soul?) of the psionicist has been imbued with a 
huge amount of excess magic.  While the psionicist tends to release their
energy in certian ways, they have at best a limited control over their talent.
Most psionicists are created in the aftermath of a nuclear explosion, as the 
"liberated" psychic energy of the dying infuses the psionicist-to-be with 
psychic energy.  Of course, this tends to have lots of radiation with it as
well.
	Obviously, this is a very world-specific view of magic.  But I think
that any implementation of magic in a RPG as "generic" as net.rpg aims to be, 
should be able to include this view of magic in the world, as well as all of
the other ideas that have been posted to this newsgroup...
	I think that we're going to need to have to some serious modularity 
here, guys....



	"Sublett said it was the Devil's work.
	 Rydell said it was a Tokyo franchise operation."
	          _Virtual Light_   -    William Gibson.

	 Tony Pace           -            <apace@mta.ca>   


Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Lamb)
Subject: Re: FUDGE Miracles
Organization: Computing & Information Science, Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:49:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.013720.1066@oz.plymouth.edu> sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
>Any feedback on the FUDGE Miracles system in FUDGE 12/12 Section F?
>

The basic ideas seem good for a free-form game.  I have one minor concern;
'Levels' in part A (and in the rest of the description I've read)
means poor/fair/etc, and have a particular mechanic for resolving
skill rolls.  They seem to mean something different for Divine Favour,
and have a differfent resolution mechanism (rerolling).  Isn't this an
unneccessary complication?  Why not just use the normal resoltion
mechanism?
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: cleggp@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg)
Subject: Re: Virtual walking???
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:04:53 GMT

How about this:

Rig up a harness on the person.  Nothing complex, just something that will
stay in one place on a person's body.  Stick 'em on a normal treadmill.
Turning is acheived by turning the person's body, which the harness will
transmit to the computer(s).

The turning motion can be transmitted several ways; you could put a set of
sensors around the person, and the harness could have an infrared laser (or
just a pinpoint light source), and the turning motion could be detected by
how the beam moves.  Or you might rig up something simpler, such as attach-
ing two ropes or somesuch to the harness, the n loop the rope back behind 
the player, and around a pulley.  When the person turns, the pully will
turn also, and you can figure out turning motion from that.

...Paul

Just ideas off the top of my head.


-- 
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
  Paul Clegg, cleggp@aix.rpi.edu.   <I> killed God, why do you ask? 
         System One RPG designer.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
	<1992Dec13.202347@IASTATE.EDU>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 14:20:21 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:23:47 GMT, cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) said:

	Ramez> In my game system, there are 3 fundamental types of
	Ramez> 'magic'.  I'll describe the concepts behind them very
	Ramez> very roughly (some of my players might read this, and I
	Ramez> don't want them to figure out too much about my
	Ramez> universe!)

	Charles> I would say that you and I just do not agree on the role of
	Charles> magic in a world.  I do not believe magic should be a science.
	Charles> I do not believe Psionics should be used in a world with 
	Charles> magic.  I do not wish to sound antagonistic or start a flame
	Charles> war; I simply do not agree with your opinions, and there is
	Charles> no reason you should agree with mine.

In *my* book, magic should be something unknown, fearsome and
terrible, a black claw to reach out from the darkest pits of your
soul, a horrible incarantion of pure evil,...

In other words, I'd like games where magic is something not available
to PCs, but probably used mostly by the enemy.  The players will know
nothing of how it works, but of course there will be rumors and
ancient tales.

If you look at literature, I mean, *good* fantasy literature, that's
usually how it is impemented, AD&D type cash&carry magic just doesn't
cut it :-)  Think of Gandalf and Galadriel, Merlin and Morgan LeFay.
Whitches in the middle ages.

Just my views on magic, now for a magic system:

If you want a magic system, I suggest using one that has its roots in
a stat/ability-system that is composed of "real world" values.  What I
mean is no 'magic' stat, or even more vaguely defined 'power', 'force'
or similat stats.  

I can see at least two approaces to this, using magic of the Wizard
type, based on intellect and intelligence, studying ancient lore etc
to learn, and perhaps using willpower or something to 'channel'
energies the way you want them.

Or you can take a more 'shamanly' approach, basing magic power in the
unconscious, instinct or whatever, making magicking more of a 'gift'

One point in favor of not introducing any dedicated stats to magic,
is, of course, that with a point-based system you don't have more
stats to spend your points on...of course, the balance of the stats
will be altered.

--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: SOND, was RE: a New line
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, NH.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 21:49:31 GMT

I would think that you could look to different psychological theories
for attributes.  How far along in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a
particular PC child, for example?

Using Assagioli's six primary functions as psychological attributes
makes perfect sense for children:

Thinking  -  Feeling (Emotion)
Imagination  -  Impulse
Sensation  - Intuition

The functions on the same lines are oppposites - you can only access
one of them by blocking out the opposite for a while ...

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: apace@mta.ca
Subject: Re: net.rpg: stats.ideas
Reply-To: apace@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:51:46 GMT

In article <70750,443-141292144317@3.10.7.22>, 70750,443@cis.com (Spike) writes:
>Ah, I forgot to mention the other big problem I have 
>with binary trees: in order to have a wide base
>at the lower tiers, you need a lot of tiers. I prefer
>around 5 or six, *including* skills. At the 5-tier
>level, each "field" has 2^5 = 32 stats. With three
>fields (Mind, Body and Generic Third Thing (tm))
>that's less than 100 stats. (At this level, we should
>be looking at extremely specialized skills - 
>and there should be way more available for
>this level of detail.)

This is true, but I think that you are missing my original point.
A binary tree, especially near the root of it, makes the removal 
or addition of a particular feature of the game particularly
easy.  The main use of this would be to add or remove magic and 
psionics with little pain.

I personally feel that the lowest reaches of the stat tree
will reach down to about seventh rank.  That's just an off the top 
of my head estimate, though.

I do feel, as I pointed out in one of my posts, that as we get farther
down the tree we shouldn't worry too much about symmetry.  After all, the 
stakes are lower out there.

I think that it would be reasonable to have the tree begin to spread 
out slightly wider on the level just below what Ramez proposed, perhaps
to three or four per branch. After that, we might as well just let things
run wild.

>I don't think we should worry about making
>the game *perfectly* balanced. I'd rather 
>make it realistic and *approximately* 
>balanced. Champions is wonderfully
>point-balanced, for example, and I have
>*big* problems with it.

This is a good point.  I think that we have to try and keep a
basic simplicity in the overall design, something that is intuitive 
and easy to remember.  Sometimes I have a great fear of looking up and 
finding out that net.rpg has mutated into net.chartmaster.

>Spike
>
>"I would shelter you, and keep you in light
> but I can only teach you
> night vision" - Suzanne Vega

	"Sublett said it was the Devil's work.
	 Rydell said it was a Tokyo franchise operation."
	          _Virtual Light_   -    William Gibson.

	 Tony Pace           -            <apace@mta.ca>   


Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: goldm@rpi.edu (Mitchell E. Gold)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: FUDGE: Scale
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:36:54 GMT
	<1992Dec14.215008.8184@rchland.ibm.com>
	<1992Dec15.012721.1005@oz.plymouth.edu>
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

You'll see something approximating this system posted a few days back under
the subject "Sullivan's: The RPG (was: DAMAGE: A theoretical system)". If
you can't find it, I can repost it, but it goes into a little more detail
than this thread. Loren Miller suggested I post it here to get more feedback,
but so far noone has responded to it.
--
 Mitchell Gold     /  middleman of
 sundance@rpi.edu /  rec.games.frp.archives
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: FUDGE: Scale
Date: 15 Dec 92 03:24:40 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

In article <GOLDM.92Dec14213654@jonah.rpi.edu>, goldm@rpi.edu (Mitchell E. Gold) writes:
> You'll see something approximating this system posted a few days back under
> the subject "Sullivan's: The RPG (was: DAMAGE: A theoretical system)". If
> you can't find it, I can repost it, but it goes into a little more detail
> than this thread. Loren Miller suggested I post it here to get more feedback,
> but so far noone has responded to it.

But they are talking about adopting it into the FUDGE system. That
sounds like positive feedback to me. No?

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail.                         -- Baron de Montesquieu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen)
Subject: Re: What happened to the REAL net.rpg
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:11:22 GMT

tob@world.std.com (Tom O Breton) writes:

>I have a nascent set of frp rules -- *very* different than fudge -- but I 
>don't think they're in shape to post yet. 

Me too, but I'm going to vacation tomorrow morning. So, Merry Christmas
to all, and see ya next year! :)

-- 
               Juha Liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
              University of Helsinki,  Dept. of  Lost Souls
           "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: naam@cecer.army.mil (Ramez Naam)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: response.FAQ
Organization: US Army Corps of Engineers Construction Engineering Research Labs
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:16:40 GMT

cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:

>Ramez Naam suggests the stat tree:
>>			All Stats
>>		Physical	Mental
>>			Physical
>>		Fortitude	Coordination
>>			Fortitude
>>		Strength	Constitution
>>			Coordination
>>	Dexterity(hand/eye)	Agility(whole body/balance)
>>			Mental
>>		Intellectual	Instinctive/Subconscious
>>			Intellectual
>>		Reasoning	Discipline/Willpower
>>			Instinctive
>>	Intuition/Creativity	Personality/Charisma
>should be utilised when the genre does not have magic, as
>opposed to the bianary tree appearing in the most recent
>FAQ.

>The problem I have with this idea is that you end up with
>two totally different trees--one for magical genres and one
>for non-magical genres.  The advantage of the non-symmetric
>tree is that a given branch may be disregarded and thus remove
>magic from the game without altering the form of the ability
>tree.


The above stat tree is based on the principle that Magic should
be something fundamental to the universe,ie...based on stats
that everyone has, and which are in evidence in non-magical
situations.  Once this was suggested, I immediately fell for
the idea.  Do you disagreee with it?

--
Ramez Naam
naam@terra.cecer.army.mil
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: stv@unislc.uucp (Steve Spencer)
Subject: A NEW line of discussion
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:04:35 GMT

Okay everybody, I figure that just complaining about what is/isn't
discussed in this group is not going to get me anywhere, so I'm gonna
try and start the ball rolling. I say that we try to design a WHOLE
NEW game (yup let's start ALL OVER AGAIN). My reasons? Not really to
stop the progression of FUDGE, or net.rpg, or.... or.... What I
think is that EVERY game learns things by seeing how it is done in
other games. So, hopefully, the people working on FUDGE, and others
will actually be able to draw from some of our ideas, as we will from
there's. 
	So here's the jist of the whole thing:
	There has been a discussion going on in rec.games.frp.misc, 
concerning how to do a game in which the characters are children (8-14).
These children will grow, and get skills, and get prominent, etc. So 
These are the things we need to look at:
	
	ABILITY SCORES: We need to choose things that are important as 
	children see things. These may/may not be totally different than
	abilities that are common in games. 

	SKILLS: What skills does a child have that would be useful to him,
	and how do we acurately plot what skills he developes as he grows?
	I personally feel, that if it is possible, we should have the 
	character's ability to gain skills be based on their performance,
	For instance, the "child" may state that he/she is paying VERY
	close attention to SWORDFIGHTING, SNEAKING, FASTTALKING,
	and INTERPERSONAL RELATIONS. And each time the character uses 
	one of these skills, the GM then gives them a number of 
	points for it. Maybe 1 point for just using the skill, and
	another 2 or 3 points for nyh time that they use it exceptionally 
	well. Then, after tha character reaches a set number, they gain a 
	level in that skill.

	GENETICS: We need to see what growth patterns tha child will follow,
	as they mature throughout the game. How big will they get? And at 
	what rate? And how do we plot the time, so that they character grows
	up throughout play?

Any help/comments anyone? For ease of title lines, I suggest (for now
at least) that we use SOND in the title line (Start Of a New Discussion).


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| It's the sputter of a raindrop. It's the sunlight on my face |
| My mind's eye into other realms. It's my paradise escape.    |
| Steve Spencer	SLC, Utah 	stv@unislc.slc.unisys.com      |
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall)
Subject: net.rpg - eliminating mundane magic
Organization: Boeing
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:23:56 GMT

sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
 > 1) An alternative to a list of spells.  If some folks want a set list,
 > fine: they can have one.  But any system I play has to have the other
 > option available.  In my experience, a set list of spells leads to
 > stagnation, no matter how large the list.

I agree with this one. A detailed set of guidelines for spell design could
be used to replace a standard list of spells. Something along the lines of
Ars Magica perhaps?

 > 2) Some way to encourage the magician not to use the same spells all
 > the time.  This can be either carrot or stick, though carrot is nicer.
 > (Example of stick method: "You lose some sanity for casting the same
 > spell twice in one gaming session."  Example of carrot method: "+1 to a
 > spell you haven't cast in this gaming session yet.")

How about this: "Mundane magic is weakened magic". If you use a spell
over and over, it develops into an ordinary physical phenomenon and
loses its special magical nature. Thus, each time you use a particular
spell you have developed, it becomes weaker and harder to cast.

 > What else should be here?

You could also have a property that says: "Shared magic is mundane magic."
If a Wizard shares his particular secrets with another, then the magic
becomes more mundane and is weakened.

The Wizard spends part of his time researching new relations between the
mundane universe and the magical meta-universe. Each time he/she
discovers a new thread (symmetry/similarity?) between the two, he/she can
draw upon the newly discovered power. However, when another learns the
secrets of this new connection, then the 'power' is diminished for both.

This also has the nice effect that Wizards are much more paranoid and
secretive about their knowledge.

Attempting to put these together:

  "Magic can never be mundane"

  1. The Wizard can research new magical relationships.  These relations
     could be a state of being (Fire, Life, Light, ..), a state of
     change (Creation, Destruction, Movement, ...), a state of dimension
     (Round, flat, line, cone, etc.), and so on. The relation would be
     some sort of component that links the magic to the universe: a charm,
     word of power, dance, rune, etc.

  2. The relations are wielded together in a pattern to form new spells.
     Ex: "Create Fire in a Sphere" -> Fireball.

  3. Each time a spell is used, it requires more 'magic' to cast.
     Eventually the spell becomes all but unusuable and a new relation
     must be forged before it can be cast again.

  4. Sharing knowledge weakens the magic and makes it more difficult
     to cast. It is becoming 'mundane'.

-- 
 Bob Hall                   |  if [ -bs message ]; then
 Boeing Computer Services   |      mv message /compost/heap/$$
 root@chicken.ca.boeing.com |  fi
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
	<KETIL.92Dec14152020@spurv.ii.uib.no>
	<1992Dec14.183631.29341@news.columbia.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 21:36:24 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:36:31 GMT, jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) said:

	Me> If you want a magic system, I suggest using one that has
	Me> its roots in a stat/ability-system that is composed of
	Me> "real world" values.  What I mean is no 'magic' stat, or
	Me> even more vaguely defined 'power', 'force' or similat
	Me> stats.

	John> 	I agree. I prefer magic which is not just a 'tack-on'
	John> to a scientific world. [...]

OK, let's have it in the FAQ, then.  If there are no objections...?

	Me> I can see at least two approaces to this, using magic of
	Me> the Wizard type, based on intellect and intelligence,
	    [...]
	Me> Or you can take a more 'shamanly' approach, basing magic
	Me> power in the unconscious, instinct or whatever, making
	Me> magicking more of a 'gift'

	John> I think you are grouping together things which are
	John> unconnected.  Many schools of Western 'hermetic' magic
	John> believe that the power of magic rests on the innate
	      [...]

OK, these were only meant as examples on ways this could be
implemented, the exact details are left as an excercise for the game
designer.




--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
Newsgroups: rec.games.design