From: hau4@ellis.uchicago.edu (sven  hauptfeld)
Subject: Re: Prononciation Of Names
Followup-To: sci.language
Reply-To: hau4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:52:22 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.023953.19187@cs.brown.edu> jhc@iris.brown.edu.UUCP (James H. Coombs) writes:
>In article <65640@cup.portal.com> wms@cup.portal.com (W Mark Schneider) writes:
>
>>Oh, and to answer my own question, Dr. Euwe claimed then that
>>it was impossible to pronounce his name correctly in English
>>as that language did not have the correct sound.

(See my answer to the original posting.)

>FINALLY!  We just need to pronounce these names in a manner that
>enables us to communicate with each other.

...which is only possible if we pronounce them correctly. Take Euwe, for 
example, and let three people, one English, one German and one Croatian,
each one ignorant of any foreign pronounciation, try to 'communicate'. One
would say YOOWEE (or YOOW), one OYVEH and one... well, there's no such
diphtong in English: /EUVE/. How successful do you think the communication
would be?

>  Americans especially have
>this provincial worry over "correct" English.

I assume you mean "correct foreign pronounciation" (that would fit in the
context).
This is most laughable when said about the people who think Archimedes yelled
"You don't smell good... uh!" (Eureka!) and pronounce my simple first name in
ingeniously degenerate ways.

>  (I have a Ph.D.  in
>English and an M.A. in Linguistics.)

I appreciate that. But why do you discourage other people from learning?

>  I have always been impressed by
>the practice in England (at least frequently) of ignoring the "proper"
>pronunciation of even simple foreign names.  Byron, for example, wrote
>*Don Juan*, with the clear intention of pronouncing the name not as in
>Spanish (wahn) but as in English (dzhoo'-ahn).  Just one example.

Yeah, and the French mutilate it their own way. Being a famous writer doesn't
mean being impeccable about language. Newton was a helluva scientist, yet his
passion for the occult was just as great. And Kant believed that mice were
born from mud. So what?

>  And those of us who have some capabilities in a particular
>foreign language delight in pronouncing names and words better than
>everyone else, leaving them to feel like bumpkins.

I delight in doing things correctly. I never think that I do anything 'better
than anyone else' because I assume it is normal to do things correctly. I'd
much rather say that those who don't (and certainly, I often belong to that
group) do 'worse than anyone else'.

BTW, do you delight in making good chess moves? And when you do, do you feel
guilty that your opponents 'feel like bumpkins'?

>  How should we
>pronounce "croissant" when ordering in a restaurant?  How many years
>should we dedicate to learning French so that we get it right?

Heck, you don't have to order a "croissant". Order a butter roll. I don't 
know if that is a 'word', but to me it seems like perfect English way to
say... uh... crwassunh?

>  When I
>ordered a book on the opening named after Colle, I asked, and they said
>"kow'-lee".  So that's what it is.

Don't have a kow. When I ordered a book of French slang idioms titled "Merde",
the salesperson said (of course!) MURR-DY. So "that's what it is"? 
(Actually, I was thankful to her for all the laughs.)

>  Try to talk to someone about the
>"koo'-luh" opening, and it will take you a while to make your referent
>clear.

That's bogus. Whatever way you pronounce it, nobody but a few chessplayers
will have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

>  Then you can stand there talking about linguistics instead of
>chess, when you probably know a lot more about chess than linguistics.

And what we are talking here is neither chess nor linguistics, but politics.
(Yes, whether people should be encouraged or discouraged to learn is politics.)
And you probably know a lot more about linguistics than politics.

I know this is not chess and I appologize. Follow-ups should go elsewhere. But
I am pissed off that every time that somebody who sincerely wants to learn and
broaden his/her horizons (which is most laudable) asks a question on correct
pronounciation, some philosophic nerd starts preaching that knowledge is 
useless, despisable snobism. If you admire ignorance, go vote for Quayle, but
let other people improve!

	Sven

P.S. Follow-ups to sci.lang.