HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:12:16 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Jul24115145@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.134710.14212@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> afrydman@granpa.enet.dec.com (Av Frydman) writes:
>>   In article <1992Jul24.071839.29730@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes...
>>
>>    But I would teach my children myself
>>   >rather than send them to an Orthodox *anything*; I have about the same
>>   >degree of appreciation for and agreement with Orthodox religious the-
>>   >ory as I do for Christianity, and I wouldn't let my kids grow up being
>>   >trained by either one.

>>   Clearly, something must be very wrong to engender this kind of hatred.  What
>>   does "Orthodox" mean to you, Nora, that "anything" about it is anathema?
>
>I didn't interpret Nora's characterization of Orthodox Judaism to be
>hatred, but just theological disagreement.  That Orthodox theory is as
>objectionable to Nora as Christian theory is striking.  This implies
>that some Jews are as far apart from some other Jews as they are from
>Christianity.  Since Judaism and Christianity are usually considered
>two religions, this implies that Orthodox Judaism and, say, reform
>Judaism are also two religions, at least in the eyes of some.

Quit putting words into my moth, please, Jim; you didn't understand what
I was saying. My theology isn't "as far away from some other Jews as...
from Christianity" -- I simply don't measure in degree on this kind of
issue. If I were forced to take one or the other, I'd take anything in
the range of Judaism without question; but I'm not, so I reject both
without having to put them up next to each other and determine which
is the lesser of two fallacies. 

>=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

	-Nora
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<1992Jul24.175441.24379@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
	<1992Jul26.144016.28436@cs.tulane.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 20:17:46 GMT

>>>Consider: what do you "label" a Jew... [who] lights
>>>candles Friday nights, drives on Shabbos and doesn't keep kosher?
   Perhaps she drives for an ambulance company and is a vegetarian?

>>>Or a Jewish man who puts on tefillin every day but eats on Yom Kippur?
   Perhaps he suffers (G-d forbid) from diabetes and fasting would be 
   dangerous to his health, so he has been forbidden to fast by his Rav
   in consultaton with a doctor?  

--
/M
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: ORTHODOXY FOR THE NON-ORTHODOX.
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 19:01:06 GMT


   Rabbi Arian has made assertions about Rabbi A. J. Heschel that
are very innacurate.  Heschel was NEVER ordained to the rabbinate
at the Berlin Hochschule.  The documents of ordination were given
to him as a means of escaping from nazi Germany.  While it's true
that he taught at non-orthodox institutions, he was orthodox from
head to toe.  He was ordained by the Chassidic Rebbes in Germany.
   The problem that many orthodox have with Heschel is his notion
of halacha.  Heschel was not comfortable with the idea of halacha
as an end in and of itself.  He viewed halacha more as a means to
an end, that being the perfection of the human condition.  Jewish
law, to Heschel, was also regarded as the BEST means to this end.
   These facts and ideas were confirmed in personal conversations
with my friend, Dr. Susannah Heschel, daughter of A. J. Heschel.
-- 
"The tree of liberty must occasionally be nourished by the blood
of tyrants and of patriots."                    Thomas Jefferson
"Hello? Information?  Would you please give me the home phone of
Pat Buchanan?...Yes.  His address as well, thank you very much."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: 5% bugs in ketchup!
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 24 Jul 92 12:35:58 GMT

friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
	rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff) writes:

	>Thus a pot of soup with even a single
	>whole bug in it is treif, even if the pot is the size of a room.

	This holds true for "leafy" vegetables as well.  Home-grown lettuce
	(for instance) or lettuce purchased at a "farmer's market" must be
	soaked in salt water and thoroughly washed to rid of any bugs.
	Lettuce that is purchased in modern supermarkets has been treated with
	chemicals, subjected to lamps which kill bugs and scrubbed; and is
	therefore OK to eat without concern.

Not everyone relies on this.  First off, they don't scrub under the leaves.
When checking for bugs, you should remove the three outermost leaves.
Second, if any bugs are left, you are `over on several 'isurim, though
you save on a few if the bugs are dead.  Many consider it easier to avoid
lettuce and certain other vegetables.

	In Israel, many restauraunts (including Off the Square - a personal
	favorite) serve only hydroponically grown lettuce (in a bug-free
	environment).  This alleviates any kashrus concern for the customers.

Not entirely.  There's an issue of brachot here.  Fruits and vegetables
grown hydroponically get a shehakol, since they do not come from the
ground.

-Don Gertler
From: ranen@huey.cs.huji.ac.il (Ranen Goren)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Mafdal and the Government
Date: 29 Jul 92 10:18:49 GMT
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In article <l6dts3INNfp6@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>, janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:
|> In article 711364151@techunix.technion.ac.il, goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg) writes:
|> >janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:
|> >
|> >>I was just wondering if this the first time the Mafdal has not been
|> >>part of the Israeli government ...
|> >
|> >                           NO
|> 
|> 
|> Someone else replied equally strongly YES.  Could you provide some dates
|> either way?
|> 
|> ********************************************************************************
|> Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075
|> janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!)
|> ********************************************************************************

-- 
I don't know if you already received an answer, anyway:
Mafdal did not take part in the Licud-Labor-Shas government
which was formed in November 1988.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rig@eng.umd.edu (Ronald Greenberg)
Subject: NPR on KKK convert to Judaism
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 12:07:42 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, College of Engineering
Distribution: usa


National Public Radio just had a story about the KKK guy who was
befriended by the Nebraska cantor he originally harassed and who
converted to Judaism.  You might be able to catch it if you have a
radio station with a late broadcast of Morning Edition.  For example,
on WAMU in Washington, DC, it will be on again around 9:45.  In
general, the piece ends at 11 minutes before the end of the two hour
broadcast.  I don't recall how long the piece was; it might start a
little earlier than a quarter to.  It's probably not worth going out
of your way to hear, but if you have a radio handy, you might want to
listen to it.
-- 

Ronald I. Greenberg	(Ron)		rig@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:27:39 GMT

In article <9207220555.AA08458@nysernet.ORG> <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL> writes:


>Why is it that the Orthodox Reform-bashers assume that the liberal stream
>of Judaism takes people away from Orthodoxy? From the people that I have
>met, it seems that more are taken from the non-religious or those who may
>have been Orthodox but would have slipped away to nothing.

AHA!  A refreshing break from the traditional OCR wars.

Larry's question boils down to whether any (or all) branches are
effective in maintaining Jewish identity and nationhood.  This question is
irrelevant to doctrinal issues (which is "right")   or to historical
issues (who are the true inheritors of the Judaic thought and practice).
Thus, the question may be irrelevant; if you believe that someone
else's interpretation is simply wrong, then "survival value" isn't
a convincing argument.  I identlfy myself as Orthodox, and that means
that I disagree with many fundamental tenets  of Conservative, Reform,
and Reconstructionist systems; I assume that C,R,&R advocates disagree
with Orthodoxy (which is why they don't practice/advocate Orthodoxy.

But, from a survival value perspective, there are  also good reasons
for Orthodoxy-advocates to object to C,R,&R practices.  By providing
alternatives, they legitimatize non-normative practices.  If there
were only Orthodoxy, non-observant Jews would know that they are
deviating from normative practices.  But with C,R,&R alternatives,
a Jew can be non-observant (i.e., non-Orthodox) and still believe
that he/she  is doing the right thing.

The same argument might be made against afternoon Hebrew schools.
If the only form of J. education was yeshivot, then most J. kids
would attend, and get solid J. educations.  But now (in the US), 
J. parents can meet their "responsibilities" by sending their kids
for a few hours a week -- and most J. kids get very little.

Incidentally, before the resurgence of Orthodoxy, C,R,&R advocates
also made "survival value" arguments to support their positions.  Such
argument may have been tenable then; I don't believe that they are
as valid now.



-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:26:33 GMT
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet

ds: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
mw: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
dg: me

dg: Let me see.  Conservative and Reform Jews DON'T think they're right?

ds: Sure they do.  But they *don't* say that Orthodox are wrong.

mw: That is certainly a lie.

ds: Please give examples of official positions from Reform or Conservative
ds: leadership which state that Orthodoxy is wrong.  (I'm not talking about	ds: individuals; as someone else pointed out, there are intolerant people
ds: in every group.)

If the official Reform position is that Halakha (Torah, Talmud, etc.)
is not binding on all Jews, then this is tantamount to saying that
Orthodoxy is wrong.  It is not saying that the Orthodox should stop
observing, just that they are mistaken/wrong.

Likewise the Orthodox believe that the Reform are wrong.  They are
mistaken in their fundamental beliefs.  It saddens the Orthodox that
all Jews don't understand enough to accept Judaism in the same
(Orthodox) way.  [I don't mean to sound patronizing here, though I
acknowledge that some will read it that way.]

-Don Gertler
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: One question
Date: 22 Jul 92 09:31:55 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Jul20.222655.6226@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com
(Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1992Jul16.182140.23796@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul14.142833.14079@news.cs.brandeis.edu>
abrams@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>
>>>Sometimes the eye in the center of the hand is blue.
>>>I think blue is also thought to be lucky or
>>>protective, since many doors and windows in Jerusalem
>>>are painted blue. ..

>>The above is correct. ... a blue necklace
>>and put it on their daughter to protect her from evil eye.
>
>Last year, while on a tour of the Abu Moussa monastery in the
>Judean Desert, I was told that blue was considered a protective color
>by the Greek Orthodox and that this was why the roofs of the monasteries
>in the desert are painted blue.

The blue color on doors and windows is used 4 protection against
the GIN of the sea, (Thus , I Didn't checked that, just western doors
and windows are painted blue, the sea is at the west  )
GIN : (Hebrew: SHED)  a mixture of the christian satan , a ghost ,
     a bad fairy and may be something else.

Gideon Ehrlich    ERETZ YISRAEL
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Arab factor in elections
Date: 23 Jul 92 10:27:17 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <4045@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

    One may think that there is any simetry here:
       Gentiles has done trubles to Jews , just because they hate Jews ,
       hen Jews did nothing wrong to gentiles , and had noevil will
       toward them
    and the other side there are some Jews here who want to hurt
    Arabs, while Arabs are innocent and do nothing wrong to Jews.

I think that the things that were done to us are wrong.  They are not
just wrong because we did not intend any harm to the non-Jews, they
are things that should not be done to anyone.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very narrow mathom.
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ nysernet.org is not all that hungry.
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:23:25 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <LERNER.92Jul27212841@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
>In article <55213@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

			[Lots omitted.]

>   PLEASE, DO ME THE COURTESY OF NOT CLAIMING THAT CARBON 14 DATING AND THE
>   LIKE IS A "DIRECT OBSERVATION".  HOW MANY PIECES OF ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT 
>   ARE IN USE IN  A C14 DATING OR THE OTHER PURPORTED "DIRECT OBSERVATIONS"
>   WHICH ESTABLISH?  IT IS A DERIVED CALCULATION,  NOT A DIRECT OBSERVATION.
>   WERE YOU THERE WITH A NOTEBOOK?  

A rather good understanding of the development of the earth, the order of
development of biota, etc., came before any radiocarbon dating.  In fact,
reasonable estimates were made before radioactivity was discovered only
about a century ago.  Radioactive decay dating confirmed the previous
deductions, and refined the precise timing.

I was not basing my arguments on the dating at all.  The order of development
in the fossil record does not require it, and I am perfectly willing to read
any time distortion you want into the Creation account.  One can argue, quite
correctly, that cosmology can fit into B'reshith by changing the time scale.
But not for the development of life on this planet.

>>> a summary.  Nor is the distribution of fauna consistent with any world-wide
>>> flood at any time when any of genus homo was around.

>>> Thus it is necessary for us humans to use our mental capacities and the
>>> continuing inspiration from God to separate His words from those of mortals
>>> attempting to convey His ideas.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:38:45 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.133425.18948@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu
(Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>In article <2345@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:

>>If this is not the case, let's call it a misunderstanding and all
>>agree that we are supposed to help Jews first, everyone else next.

>Sorry but no way.
>If I have a coat and a Jew and a non-Jew, who happens to be my wife, need it,
>I will give it to a non-Jew.
>Also, this is all ridiculous, at least for me.
>My children will be non-Jews, and  would give them more than to any Jew.
>We are not supposed to help Jews first.,

Please cite a source for this last line (other than "blatant assertion" or
emotional attachment).
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:21:26 PDT

In article <14k4i9INNe65@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>In article <LERNER.92Jul21174434@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
>-> Well, here we are again.  The term "ultra-orthodox" is horrible and
>-> derogatory, as if it says "excessively".  How about just "Orthodox"?
>-> Is there a better term?
>
>How about Turbo-Orthodox?  Has a nice, modern ring to it, no?

Excellent! and leaves room for Hyper-Orthodox (excessively-Turbo-Orthodox)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bce@molson.cray.com (Brad Elkin)
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is J
Reply-To: <bce@molson.cray.com (Brad Elkin)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:53:02 GMT

> 
> In article <LERNER.92Jul21174434@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
> 
> >Well, here we are again.  The term "ultra-orthodox" is horrible and derogatory,
> >as if it says "excessively".  How about just "Orthodox"?  Is there a better
> >term?
> 
> Dussim?		Voosvoosim?		Shvartz?
> 
> Nope, I think we have to stick with my original suggestion:  Shakers.
> 
> Aryk
> 
> 
How about "Shucklers":-) 


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Brad Elkin	                                Cray Research Inc.   |
| E-mail: brad.elkin@cray.com			(612)683-3668	     |

			@	 @

			    <
                       Xx       xX
		        XXXXXXXXX
		         xXXXXXx
		           XXX 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Musing about Karaites
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 15:26:04 +0300

 In: <BrJnIJ.Cn6@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
 aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) muses:

>In article <83548@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P W
>
>I had said:
>
>>>|> I have no ideas as to what the remnants of the Karaite communities think
>>>|> about themselves, but as I recall, the Karaites are not considered Jews
>>>|> by the Mishna.
>
>Matthew replied:
>
>>Of course not.  The Karaites are post-Mishna, so they are not considered
>>anything whatsover in the Mishna.
>
>And I muse:
>
>Surely the discussion of signalling the new month from Judaea to Babylonia
>mentions precautions taken against false signalling by hostile Karaites.

I am not sure  if Canada has a constitution, but  from my short visits
to that  country I got  the impression that  the freedom of  musing is
accepted as  a right of  Canadians.  Even  the right to  muse wrongly.
The facts  are still as stated  by Matthew that the  Karaites are POST
Mishna.  As we say in modern Ivrit: Gam fact ze uvda.

>Aryk

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann)
Subject: Re: On Propaganda (was Slander)
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-5546]: bourbon
Organization: E.E. Dept., Tulane University, New Orleans, LA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 03:57:13 GMT

In article <199207261301.AA22431@das.wang.com> MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
>
>I  am  neither Reform  nor  Orthodox  and do  not  wish  to enter  the
>discussion  between Saal  and  Lerner versus  Kraft.   But while  this
>statement by  Sam Saal that  not all  O is "purely  propagandistic" is
>correct, from  my experience I  would say that  neither is R.   On the
>other hand these days, from living in Israel and abroad, I experienced
>that the  Habad missionary effort directed  to Jews is a  main part of
>their activity,  as are  those of  other "outreach"  groups of  the O.
>What is that if not "propaganda"? I can imagine that non-O groups also
>have such activities, but I noticed much more those of the Orthodox.
>
It all depends, I guess, on what one means by "propaganda" and how one
distinguishes that from "education." If Michael means to castigate the
disrespect inherent in inflammatory terms, I am in complete agreement:
let us leave aside manipulation of words and reliance on evocative
and usually erroneous connotations and concentrate, if necessary, on a
presentation of issues and ideas. Above all, let us respect each
other.

David Kaufmann
INTERNET:	david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Inheritance of Jewish Identity from a Great-great-grandmother
Date: 26 Jul 92 15:20:39 GMT
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <545@kesher.UUCP>, aaron@kesher.UUCP (Aaron Schmiedel) writes:
> In article <2264@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>>
>>time, or eliminate the oddity of having someone come up to where the
>>Torah is being read, asking his name, and then calling the person -
>>he's already there by that point.  We do mention the name in the
>
>
> The shul I belong to is very small, so the rabbi or gabbai will say
> "Aharon Dovid ben..." and pauses for <me in this example> to fill int
> the blank.  Sometimes he doesn't know at all, so he asks BEFORE the
> aliyah is given.


He better ask *before* or else somewhat embarrassing situations can happen.
Which reminds me of what took place at the dedication of the synagogue of the
luxury Daniel Hotel in Herzliya Israel about 8 (??) years ago. A leading figure
of the Israel Labor Party was called up to the Torah. The gabbay says, "YAAMOD
YITZCHAK ben " and he looks directly at the person expecting to receive the
name of this person's father. This leading politician replies "BEN SHISHIM
VESHTAYIM". (age 62) :-)

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL






>
> In a larger shul I used to belong to, the gabbai would come around
> and ask your Hebrew name before also.
>
>
>
> --
> | Aaron D. Schmiedel            |  All my opinions represent what is right  |
> | KESHERnet International       |  and true.  Just ask me....               |
> | The Jewish Computer Network   |       <aaron@kesher.lonestar.org>         |
> | Voice: (214) 239-1941         | ...uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!kesher!aaron   |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish