HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conservative Choirs
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:11:10 EDT
Organization: Harvard University Dept. of Mathematics
In-reply-to: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com's message of 9 Oct 92 16:37:27 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.163727.5224@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, Stan Krieger writes:

>>Presumably the style of the service, and perhaps the role of the choir
>>(if it did more than conservative choirs usually do), bothered him.

> My only experience with a Conservative synagogue choir was in the
> early 1960's (in my early teens). My feeling then was that it made
> a farce of the entire service.

> The main problem I had with the choir was that instead of supplementing
> or taking over for the leader, they were taking over for the
> congregation.

> And of course, you've never lived until you've had to stand for
> over an hour as they and the Rabbi performed the Kol Nidre
> overture.

> I guess what it comes down to is this-  I don't mind a choir that
> provides a voice for the congregation to sing with, and I don't
> mind a choir that chants the lines typically reserved for or
> along with the person leading the service, but I don't like
> a situation where the choir takes over the congregation sing-alongs.

I had a similar reaction when my synagogue had a choir for the High
Holidays a few years ago.  I didn't mind the choir singing the Piyyutim.
But the choir also sang Kol Nidre and U-Netaneh Tokef to choral
melodies.  These are prayers for the congregation to participate in, not
hymns to be sung.  In particular, singing Kol Nidre as a hymn destroys
its importance and historical significance.

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:41:51 GMT

aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
#
#What would you say about so rich literature that now even reaches Poland
#apparently from circulation among Jewish community in America that
#so clearly is a lie falsifying Polish history? 

Care to elaborate? 

#Would you be willing
#to cry the same way as about Protocols ? 

I would.

#Did you cry or were you
#at least embarassed with so popular "Polish death camps"? 

I definitly think "Nazi death camps in Poland" or something similar
should be used. When I was debating with neo-Nazi Holocaust
deniers on the net, I took care to make it clear that the camps
were erected and run by the Nazis.

#And what kind
#of education comes from such a literature for Jewish community ?
#Did you at least think about it ? Or are you simply concentrating only
#on single issue and do not care what happens in your own community ?
#Did you notice what kind of hatred people around late Rabbi Kahane 
#represented ? Do you think it is good example for other communities ?

????

What do you think Kahane's status in the Jewish community was? He gained
some popularity long ago, when he was preaching a more reasonable
message, that Jews have to defend themselves. I have no problem
with his attiude towards US Nazis and antisemites, and I think
that "for every Jew a .22" is a good idea, a .45 even a better one.

However, the vast majority of US and Israeli Jews completely rejected 
his racist views towards Arabs. He was even banned from running to
parlaiment in Israel! So what is your point? And if you criticize
Kahane, what do you say about Glemp?

-Danny Keren.
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Sukkah at work?
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:44:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: netnews.93271
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)

In article <memo.684838@cix.compulink.co.uk>, stephenp@cix (Stephen Phillips) writes:
>A lawyer I know used to turn his car into a Sukkah. The car had a
>sliding roof which was large enough to meet the halachic requirements
>for a Sukkah and he put some S'chach on top and a curtain in the car
>to make a wall and would eat his lunch in it.

Don't you mean "put a curtain in the car and some s'chach on top"?
Or does the issue of preconstruction not matter once it's been done
right the first time?
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Whence the minyan?
Summary: Sources in the Tanakh
Date: 9 Oct 92 19:47:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Oct9.194742.29367
Organization: International Irony League -- Death before smileys!

There are a couple of verses that are read as requiring a Minyan.
Id on't remember chapter & verse, and I'm too lazy to look themn
up, but I'm sure someone here can fill in the blanks.

There is a commandment "Thou shalt sanctify My Name in the midst
of the congregation" in the Chumash. This is why certain
"sanctification" prayers (e.g. Kaddish, Barechu) are said only in
the presence of a Minyan.

There is also a verse from the Chumash which is something like
"When was there ever a god so close to his people as haShem is to
us, whenever we call on Him?" On the other hand, David said in
Tehillim, "And as for me, let my prayer be at an auspicious
time." The difference is that one is singular, one is plural. If
you pray by yourself, you hope that your prayer is at an
auspicious time; but if you pray in a group, you are confident
that God is close "whenever *we* call on Him." Thus, prayer in a
group (i.e. Minyan) is preferable to solitary prayer.

Or at least, that's the drash I heard on it...
-- 
Andrew M. Solovay       "Work is the curse of the drinking class."
solovay@netcom.com			--Wilde

#include <disclaimer.h>
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:17376 soc.culture.polish:3081
From: roman@hri.com (Roman Budzianowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:24:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: bigbird.7342
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: Horizon Research, Inc.

In article <1992Oct9.091120.7628@walter.cray.com>, aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

> Thre is completely different story with falsifications of Polish
> history. It is not new for Jewish community. Those falsifications
> were taken seriously as it was clearly and undeniably shown in this
| discussion. There are several positions that try to convert
            ---------------------------------------------------
| people fighting with Nazis during war and who survived Nazi
-------------------------------------------------------------
| ocuupation to be exterminated after war in large scale terror that
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| most of people living in the West cannot imagine. This is simply unacceptable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Even single oppressor from UB which was not better in any aspect
> than SS was not punished so far. But those people after immigration
> managed to falsify the history so victims of mass terror now can
> look like murderers and murderers are cleared - they did wonderful
> things. I saw even movie here showing like UB was protecting Jewish
> orphanage while Home Army was attacking that. Don't you think that it is
> digusting for families of people who were slaughtered by those criminals?


Could you translate the above paragraph for me ?


 [ ... ]


> Aleks
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: silverman@ilvc.boeing.com (Jeff Silverman @ Flight Test Instrumentation Lab)
Subject: Re: A personal experience in Poland
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <silverman@ilvc.boeing.com (Jeff Silverman @ Flight Test Instrumentation Lab)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 15:11:53 GMT

I suspect that the reason we castigate the Poles is that we compare their 
response with that of the Danes.

The majority of the Death Camps were built in Poland, and the Poles, if they 
didn't actively assist the Nazis, at least they didn't resist as much as the 
Danes did.  The Danes, on the other hand, actively resisted the Nazis.  So did 
the Dutch.  Anne Frank, for example, was hidden in Holland.

Jeff Silverman
Boeing Commercial Airplane.
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: * jesus not a christ *
Date: 11 Oct 92 08:34:02 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Oct9.190329.16181@cbnews.cb.att.com> ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:
>In article <4265@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>
(Shimshony)
>>>These news must upset the Lubavicher  Hassidim, or do the believe that
>>>the Rebbe, even  living till he is  120 years old, is  going to repeat
>>>the trick of Avraham Avinu?
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
(Ehrlich)
>>Avraham Avinu made no tricks.
>>He got his son in the same way most of the married fathers get their
>>sons.
>
(Kalmet):
>And if Isaac was 40 when Sarah died, and Abraham later remarried and
>had sons, he was really quite old then.

Yes he was really quite old, but he still was alive.

Shalom   Gideon


Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:17465 soc.culture.polish:3114
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Conservative Choirs
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 13:02:49 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.190005.16578@ils.nwu.edu> allender@ils.nwu.edu
(Laura Allender) writes:

>janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:

>> My choir story dates from my college days: I went to a commuter jr. 
>> college so I could combine my first two years of university into one. 
>> Anyway, the first Rosh Hashana right after I started school I was 
>> heading up the back stairs of my Conservative synagogue and bumped 
>> into my new jr. college choir teacher, a Baptist.  Turned out he 
>> had been the lead bass in the choir there for years!  

>I realize that it might be astonishing at first that a choir member
>was not Jewish, but Jewishness does not make for better or more
>inspirational singing.

Might there be a halachic objection to a non-Jewish choir member?
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: democracy in religion? (was Re: Intermarriage)
Date: 8 Oct 92 14:28:28 GMT
Organization: liver ---> spleen

In article <2AD3FFFF.13320@ics.uci.edu> mkrawitz@ics.uci.edu (Marc
Krawitz) writes:

>like myself) have a right to marry anyone they wish.  Is that not a
>fundamental right in any democracy?  If the idea of intermarriage
>represents some kind of irrelevant, extremist philosophy, than why
>is the intermarriage rate among Jews so high?

Marrying anyone you want seems like something reasonable in a democracy,
but I don't see what Judaism has to do with democracy.  After all, Judaism
has survived democracies, monarchies, oligarchies, dictatorships, and any
other form of (mis)government.

As for why intermarriage rates are so high, I think the answer is
closer to one of not accepting Jewish values and the weakness of Jewish
education than it is one of assuming that because so many are doing it,
it is a part of Judaism.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: pasward@maytag.uwaterloo.ca (Paul A.S. Ward)
Subject: Re: COBOL (was Re: Intermarriage)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 23:24:46 GMT

In article <9210122129.AA00645@robocop.NYU.EDU> baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker) writes:
>Andrew Solovay writes:
>
>> The Torah clearly forbids writing in COBOL.
>
>Where does it say that?  What proof can you bring?  Where do we learn over
>that COBOL is assur?

Well, I'm not sure whether the "C" of "COBOL" is a Kaf or a Qof, so I 
checked both.  The words I got were: kaval - to chain/fetter, and
qaval - to complain/cry out.  The "v" in both instances is a bet without a 
dagesh.  Either way, the verb has remarkable similarity to a programmer's
feelings when told he must abandon C for COBOL :-)
From: sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Heroes in the Hebrew Bible
Date: 13 Oct 1992 22:56:46 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: helios.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Oct13.212136.5563@leland.Stanford.EDU> miriah@loro-next.Stanford.EDU (Claire Bacher) writes:
>The heroes and heroines of the Hebrew Bible (eg., Abraham, Moses, Samuel,  
>David, Ruth, Deborah) although noble in various ways, are also flawed.   
>What does this suggest about the moral values of the Hebrews and their  
>concept of heroes ?

Nothing.  The heros and heroines of the bible were real people, and the
bible is, by and large, an attempt at a true history of the Jewish people.
Saul is the best example -- a clear description of a schizo-paranoid.

I suppose you cound ask:  What does the fact that the bible includes
negative aspects of our past imply about our sense of history?

Brian Sutin				sutin@lick.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: leslie@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Leslie Bishko)
Subject: Re: sexism
Organization: Advanced Computing Center for the Arts and Design
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 17:35:08 GMT

Hi, I'm new.  A story in response to the issue of sexism and Orthodoxy 
in general:  I consider myself a Reform Jew, more in the sense of
upbringing and attitude than actual observance (ie, I don't get to
temple very often...).  At a cousin's Orthodox Bar Mitzvah the rabbi
asked myself and my stepmother to be seated with the ladies as we were
about to join my dad in the men's section.  Gail (an attorney, no
less!) told the rabbi she preferred to sit with her husband, and so we
did.  I noticed Bat Mitzvah'd members of the congregation wearing what
looked like a ladies' yamulke (forgive my spelling!) seating
themselves among the men.

Also, my cousin had asked me not to wear slacks in shul the night
before, as the rabbi would have a fit.  All I own are these culotte
things - hadn't even considered that I should wear a dress!  I felt
bad for my cousin, as her role seemed to be that of pleasing her
parents, in-laws and rabbi to keep the tradition instead of enjoying
her son's Bar Mitzvah.

We ended up at a table with the rabbi during the reception.  He
apologized to us - I can't quite remember how his apology went.  This
was my first time in an Orthodox synagogue.  I respected the customs of
the Orthodox congregation, but felt the customs are not in line with the
1990's.  I hope to find a way to honor the essence of these customs -
get to what they represent in the context of my own life and times,
and find my own way to symbolize them.

All in all, I enjoyed being in the synagogue feeling connected with my
heritage as a Jew, and my cousin did a beautiful job reading from the
Torah!

- Leslie


-- 
Leslie Bishko
leslie@cgrg.ohio-state.edu
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Hamaayan / The Torah Spring: Parashat Vzot Haberacha
Date: 15 Oct 92 13:10:51 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <Bw5900.CJK@access.digex.com> ajb@access.digex.com (Alan J. Broder) writes:

    [A d'var torah showing that learning Torah is more important than
    serving in the army]

Note also that Yehoshua was commanded to do both.  However it was not
the Vaad Hayeshivois which noticed this and made it possible for young
men to do both.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       New signature will appear "acharai hachagim"
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org 			Jerusalem
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur Question
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:26:58 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio

In article <ALEX.92Oct13125209@diamond.idbsu.edu> alex@opal.idbsu.edu (Alex Feldman) writes:
>
>> I cannot believe that anyone would say that those great tai chi shoes from
>> Chinatown might be inferior just because they're black.
>
>No, they're inferior because it's painful to spend all day on your feet
>in them.  I did, this year.  I hope not next year

Remember:  Leather shoes are a no-no because they are comfortable.
           So, you are to afflict your soul by not wearing a
           comfortable shoe.   Looks as if you succeeded!
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ahorwitz@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Anita S Horwitz)
Subject: Cemetary in Germany
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:34:13 GMT

Did anybody see on Yom Kippur morning that there was a graveyard in Germany 
that got completely vandalized by antisemites?  We see this type of action 
constantly, but I feel especially angry when it is something that I cannot do 
anything about.  When I see antisemetic occurrences happening in my surrounding
then at least I have friends to help me deal with it.  What is being done in 
Germany or anywhere else?  When I saw that in the paper Yom Kippur morning it 
made me nautious.  What can we do?  Any suggestions?



I am new to this newsgroup so if this topic is very outdated, I apologize
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:17570 soc.culture.african.american:9944
From: sbhimji@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Sam Bhimji)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Farrakhan, Malcom X and Jews
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 12:09:16 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #2, Edmonton, AB, Canada

- As the story goes:
- 
- After Malcolm made a split from the Nation (due to personal reasons and
- severe differences with Poole in the way the Nation was practicing
- Islam), his life was threatened several times.  In some cases, he was
- convinced that the Nation was the instigator.  
- 
- Farrakhan made a call demanding that all those opposing Poole be "taken
- care of."(my quotes, not his)  This has been interpreted by many as a
- call for Malcolm's murder (and, indeed, we'll probably never know
- exactly what happened and who was the source... Nation members were
- obviously heavily implicated)  Farrakhan has never admitted to any other
- role in Malcom's assassination other than he felt that the Nation had to
- purge itself.

Does anyone know if the Nation of Islam has changed their views?? I was 
reading a book where they stated that after Elijah Muhammad died, his son 
Wallace took control over the NOI, and was leaning towards Orthodox 
Islam, and even changed the name of the organization...


Sam Bhimji              sbhimji@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: baker@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Andrew Baker)
Subject: Re: here we go again....
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 05:54:13 GMT

Eliot Shimoff writes:
>Uri J. Lessing writes:
>>Alan Lustiger writes:
>>>samuel.saal writes:
>>>>Nabil Idriss writes:
>>>>>You had a monopoly on the media for the past 40 years. Is it too much
>>>>>if the Arabs side presented their case now?
>>>>
>>>>Don't forget the banks.  Jews controlled all those, too.  We also
>>>>controlled all the bakeries, and swimming pool cleaning franchises.
>>> 
>>> And when we get to dominate women's professional wrestling, our
>>> goals will be complete! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>
>>And then are true world domination will almost be complete when we 
>>monopolize all the 7-11s in the world!!! HAHHAAHHHAHAAHHHHA!
>
>Not until we can solidify our control of the Teamsters Union, which
>delivers our porn-magazines to the 7-11s!

I don't have any information on the teamsters, but I do have
the scoop on the mafia.  We have to look at the Apocrypha,
specifically the First Book of Maccabees:

    1 Maccabees 2:1-5 (New American Bible)

    In those days Mattathias, son of John, son of Simeon, a priest
    of the family of Joarib, left Jerusalem and settled in Modein.
    He had five sons: John, who was called Gaddi; Simeon, who was
                      ----                 -----
    called Thassi; Judas, who was called Maccabeus; Eleazar, who
    was called Avaran; and Jonathan, who was called Apphus.

So John Gotti was Judah Maccabee's brother!  Note also that there
were exactly five brothers -- corresponding therefore not just to
the Gotti outfit, but to all five crime families in New York City.
From: ai726@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alice Schubach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: PLEASE!  I need your help!  Help me keep this love alive!
Date: 11 Oct 1992 19:53:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ai726@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alice Schubach)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


>> ->> >If this is the kind of crap my kids would hear ( if we ever 
>> ->> >have any) when they go to Hebrew school, I wowuld just as soon my 
>> ->> >husband take them to a church he likes.  I didn't like hearing this
>> ->> >narrow minded bigotry in Hebrew school when I was a kid, I certainly
>> ->> >wouldn't subject any child of mine to it.  If you don't think about 
>> ->> >what is good for you, nobody else will!

It makes me sad to hear the opposition to intermarriage reduced to the
concept of "narrow minded bigotry." My deep-seated opposition to
the marriage of Jews and non-Jews is not at all a putdown of the non-Jews
involved. Rather, it is a matter of my fervent desire for the Jewish
people to survive. 

In those cases where there is a sincere conversion and the children are
thus raised as Jews, there is no loss to the Jewish people and nothing
to oppose. One thing that bothered me in the original question was that
the parents might not be satisfied, even if there was a conversion. If
this is their attitude, then yes, it is a form of bigotry. 
>> 
>> ->> This diatribe demonstrates nothing for or against intermarriage.  It
>> ->> does, however, demonstrate the tragic state of Jewish life,
>> ->> spirituality, and education in some places in the world.  I don't blame
>> ->> her for being soured on the concept of marrying Jewish, given her
>> ->> story.  Nor am I surprised that she "couldn't" find a Jewish spouse.  I
>> ->> am, however, saddened by the statement it makes about society even if
>> ->> her bitterness is maginified 10 times reality.
>> 
>

Several people have posted about the importance of parents teaching
Jewish traditions, rather than just reducing it all to "you'd better
not marry a non-Jew." I was raised to be proud that I am a Jew, and
it's as much a part of what I am as any other part of my identity. This
is a *positive* identification, not a negative anti-gentile identification.

Alice

-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish