Newsgroups: bit.listserv.gaynet
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 12:12:38 -0400
From:         gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 585

In this issue:
                            Lt. Tracy Thorne
                              living a lie
                          News: Metzenbaum/BSA
                                olympics
                            Gay Republicans
                            Olympic Updates
              Countries Which Permit Same-Gender Marriage
                                  WaH
                                 motss
                    Designer attitudes (phhheeewww)
[lotus!LDBVAX!CRD.."Bill Truax@LOTUS"@uunet.UU.NET: L. L. Bean and the right
 wing]

Please send messages for the entire list to gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU,
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Postings to GayNet are public communications.  If you must keep your
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Resent-Message-Id: <9207291118.AA16476@Athena.MIT.EDU>
Resent-Date:  Wed, 29 Jul 92 07:16:42 EDT
Resent-From: Scott King <SEK100F@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>
Resent-To: gaynet@Athena.MIT.EDU
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 92 07:09:04 EDT
From: Scott King <SEK100F@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>
Subject:      Lt. Tracy Thorne

- --------------------------Original message----------------------------
Greetings again from the Tidewater, Virginia area--home of Lt. Tracy
Thorne.  Our local newspapers have highlighted the hearings daily, with
extensive front page coverage, and almost all of it has been positive.
There have also been many letters to the editor, all supporting Tracy
(and stating how ironic it is that the Tailhook sailors are just being
slapped on the hand while a man like Tracy whose actions are honest and
who is an excellent officer is being drummed out of th service).  When
you realize that this area is extremely dependent upon the military for
its economy, the support of the newspaper becomes even more amazing.

An earlier gaynet asked about how to send assistance for Tracy's legal
fees.  His address is readily available, and he has received a number of
letters, so if you want to write him or send anything, he can be reached
at:
5306-B Atlantic Avenue, Virginia Beach, VA  23451

I'm certain he'll appreciate your support--emotionally or otherwise.

Scott King, Old Dominion University  SEK100F@ODUVM.CC.ODU.EDU

------------------------------

From: COULPETG.JABBA@law.mail.cornell.edu (COULPETG)
Subject: living a lie
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 08:49
X-Force-Noop: COULPETG.JABBA@law.mail.cornell.edu

On the whole I thought the Larry King show with Lt. Tracy Thorne
went well, although I wouldn't give it high ratings.  The
accomplishments of Thorne in his Navy role spoke louder of this
injustice than did the words of the man.  However, the context of
the show certainly brought to light some of the biggest fallacies
in the current administration's opinion on the matter.

Unfortunately in his speaking Thorne used a metaphor that made me
cringe.  He spoke of those who CHOOSE to remain closeted as
"living a lie."  I understand that for Thorne being closeted may
be living a lie, and that he may not have been meaning to
disparage other closeted lesbians, gays, or bisexuals.  But I for
one object to the comment when it is applied to those who are
aware of and have accepted their non-heterosexual orientation and
yet knowingly choose not to be out about it.

There are very real reasons for remaining closeted.  There is
also a great deal of doublespeak in the word "privacy" when
applied to sexual orientation.  People on the one hand say what
goes on in our boudoirs is none of anyone else's business, but on
the other hand if it involves those of the same sex then you
better make it known.  The two are not totally incompatible, but
for the most part the boundaries are not defined in the context
in which the term is used.

I think the phrase "living a lie" can/should only describe those
people who are closeted but not having chosen it -- the folks
described in one 'netter's sig file as "in a coma" about their
orientation.  I'd be interested to hear what arguments others can
make in favor of using this phrase to describe folks who are not
in denial of their orientation, but choose not to tell others
about it.  I know that this phrase carries a lot of power, and
the concept was instrumental in my own coming out process.  But I
also think we need to respect the choices of "revealed identity"
that others make.  I certainly don't understand how using the
term in an accusatory way in hopes of bringing them out can be
healthy or charitable.

Peter Coulombe
Cornell Law School

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 12:07 GMT
Subject: News: Metzenbaum/BSA
From: An Anonymous Sender

UPn  07/29 0023  Metzenbaum introduces bill to overturn military gay...

Metzenbaum introduces bill to overturn military gay ban
 By CHARLES DOE
   WASHINGTON (UPI) -- Sen. Howard M. Metzenbaum, D.-Ohio, has offered
legislation to overturn the Pentagon's ban on homosexuals in the U.S. armed
forces.
   "I introduced this legislation because I think this military tradition is
unfair, wrong, discriminatory and a little bit un-American, " Metzenbaum said
Tuesday.
   "I think that all people in this country should be treated equally and not
discriminated against and I think that applies as well to the military," he
said.
   Metzenbaum said his bill was intended as a Senate counterpart to one which
Rep. Patricia Schroeder, D.-Col., introduced in the House earlier this year.
   Metzenbaum's measure, which is less than a page long, provides that: "No
member of the armed forces or person seeking to become a member of the armed
forces may be discriminated against by the armed forces on the basis of sexual
orientation."
   The measure provides that the armed services may still punish sexual
misconduct, however.
   "Nothing," it says, "may be construed as requiring the armed forces to modify
any rule or policy regarding sexual misconduct or otherwise to sanction or
condone sexual misconduct, but such rules and policies may not be applied in a
manner that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation."
   Metzenbaum said some 17,000 men and women have been kicked out of the U.S.
military over the last decade on grounds of homosexuality. He noted that opinion
polls conducted as recently as 1991 found that eight out of 10 Americans
believed homosexuals should not be denied an opportunity to serve in the armed
forces because of their sexual orientation.
   The senator noted an apparent parallel between current military regulations
baring homosexuals and earlier ones excluding blacks from shipboard duty.
   "The presence of (homosexuals)," says a current regulation,  "adversely
affects the ability ... to maintain discipline, good order (and) to facilitate
assignment and worldwide deployment of members who frequently must live and work
under close conditions affording minimal privacy."
   "The close and intimate conditions of life aboard ship," says a 1941 Navy
memorandum, "the necessity for the highest possible degree of unity and esprit
de corps, the requirement of morale, all demand that nothing be done which may
adversely affect the situation. Past experience has shown irrefutably that the
enlistment of Negroes (other than for mess attendants) leads to disruptive and
undermining conditions."
   Present at Metzenbaum's press conference was Navy Lt. Tracy Thorne, an
aviator who admitted his homosexual orientation on a national television
broadcast last May. A Navy board of inquiry at Oceana Naval Air Station, Va.,
last week recommended that Thorne be separated from the service on grounds of
homosexuality.
   At the inquiry, Thorne's lawyers, Patrick W. Lee and Luther Zeigler of the
Washington firm of Crowell & Moring, had sought to show that the military ban on
homosexuals was without rational foundation. But the court ruled that 79
witnesses and exibits they tried to submit were inadmissible and decided the
case instead on the more narrow grounds of Thorne's public admission of
homosexuality.
   The lawyers have said they will appeal the ruling through a Navy board of
review and the civilian courts, where they will argue that Throne was denied
equal protection of the laws guaranteed in the 14th amendment to the U.S.
Constitution. The equal protection provision has been widely used in the past to
protect the civil rights of blacks and other minorities.
   "My greatest fear was that I would not be heard," Thorne said Tuesday of the
Navy hearing, "Last week my greatest fear was realized. I was not heard."
   "The American people have heard me," he said, "this policy will come to an
end."

UPne 07/28 1905  Gay Eagle Scout files suit against Boy Scouts

   FREEHOLD, N.J. (UPI) -- An Eagle Scout will file suit Wednesday charging the
Boy Scouts of America and a New Jersey chapter with discrimination for expelling
him because he is gay.
   James Dale, 21, had earned more than 30 merit badges and was invited to
become an assistant scoutmaster in Matawan when in 1990 a local newspaper ran
his picture as a participant in a seminar on lesbian and gay teenagers.
   Soon after the article appeared, the Scouts sent Dale a letter notifying him
that his membership was being revoked but gave no explanation, according to
Lamda Legal Defense and Education Fund, Dale's partner in the lawsuit.
   The suit, to be filed in Superior Court of Monmouth County, charges that
Dale's treatment violates New Jersey's civil rights law which covers gays and
lesbians.
   "Working in and for the Scouts has been a big part of my life ever since I
was eight," Dale said. "The Scouts told us not to lie about who we are and to
stand up for what is right. I am an Eagle Scout and I am gay and it is not right
to kick me out because of who I am."
   Lamda contends the Boy Scouts admitted under pressure that Dale was expelled
because he is gay. The Boy Scouts could not be reached for comment.
   Dale's lawsuit is just the latest in a series of legal troubles for the
84-year-old organization. Similar discrimination suits have been filed in
California and other states.
   Evan Wolfson, the Lamda attorney handling Dale's complaint, said the New
Jersey law prohibits organizations like the Boy Scouts from claiming open
membership and then refusing it to some.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 09:37:10 EDT
Subject: olympics
From: An Anonymous Sender

I was told by a friend that Greg Lugainis(sp?) was "coerced" off the
olympic diving team because he came out.  Does anyone know if thats true?
It may even be old news, but I'm not always up an these things.
Ron:  Mel is definately toooo fundie for me, but my, my he certainly is fun
to look at.   :)

                    LOCKE

"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is.  I
only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that
differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute."   -Rebecca West, 1913

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 09:41 EST
From: GANDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: Re: Gay Republicans

In his post Randall C Gellens said: "(I do admit to feeling that it is a bit odd
 for gays to whine about being
discriminated against by the Republican party (along with the pro-choicers)
since that party has made it quite plain that they do not welcome gays,
lesbians, or pro-choice people.  Sort of like a Black person objecting to
the KKK not hiring him.  In my opinion, people should work for candidates
who support them, not candidates who hate or aid people who hate.)"
Well I agree with him when you look at the national scene keep in mind that
in some areas like Mass. Gay Republicans have found themselves welcome. Our
Govenor is quite pro-gay and has included many lesbian and gay people in
state govenment in addition to forming a commission on Lesbian and Gay Youth,
supporting a bill to outlaw discrimination against lesbian and gay public
school students, considering domestic partnership order for state employees,
and a few other things. Now here in this state we have democrats who are
rabidly homophobic and some who are very supportive. So, you see, it's not
always cut and dry. The democratic party's acceptance of gays on a national
level was due to a lot of hard work and years of activism by Lesbians and Gay
Men and their allies. Gays who find themselves allied with Rebublican ideology
of a libertaian bent (less government intrusion, including into personal lives)
have the right to work for inclusion in the party and to dampen the influenece
of the far right social conservitives.
        Now, having said all that, I should tell you that my leanings are to
the left wing of The Democratic Party so I'm no fan of Repiublican Fiscal
Ideology. None the less if we are to be truly inclusive as a lesbian, gay,
bisexual, and cross-dressing community we need to include gay and lesbian
Republicans.
Bye for now
        Jerry Cheney C/O "ganderson@vax.clarku.edu" or
        69 Monadnock Rd., Worcester, MA 01609.
        Phone (508) 755-0005

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:41:55 -0500
From: Mike! <mike.w.miller.40@nd.edu>
Subject: Olympic Updates

For those who appreciate the male form, tonight is defintely queer night in
Barthelona.

My handy Olympic Guide shows tonights events will be Men's Platform Diving,
Men's Swimming, Dream Team action (with Christian Laettner), and the finals
of the Men's Team Gymnastics.

On the diving, watch for Kent Ferguson who was featured in a USA Togay
article four years ago with his "roommate and best friend" Olympic Swimmer
Dan Veatch.  In their big photo together, they had their dog and a copy of
the Louganis issue of GQ on the cocktail table.  Additionally, Kent told of
how Dan always brings groups of "their friends" to his diving meets who
hold up banners and scream "Way to go, Studmuffin."

In Gymnastics, watch for Lance Ringnald.  He is rumored (I believe richard
mentioned this) to be dating on of his teammates (he's just an alternate
these Olympics) and a mutual friend says that Lance is probably best called
bi.  Of course the closet queen Bart Connor may be commentating, so that's
always worth listening.

Citius, altius, fortius,
Mike!

***--------+----------------------------------------------------------***
*  ______  |  Mike! <=> Mike W. Miller           office:  219 239-8024  *
|  \    /  |  e-mail:  Mike.W.Miller@nd.edu    home/fax:  219 237-0788  |
|   \  /   +------------------------------------------------------------+
|    \/    |  Silence=Death                                Action=Life  |
*          |  Office of University Computing, University of Notre Dame  *
***--------+----------------------------------------------------------***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:44:04 -0500
From: Mike! <mike.w.miller.40@nd.edu>
Subject: Countries Which Permit Same-Gender Marriage

I'm not sure if anyone ever answered this question, but the two countries
which permit same-gender marriages are Denmark and Norway.  In both, one of
the people getting married must be a citizen of the country.  In Denmark,
same-gender couples still cannot adopt (or at least couldn't as of about
two years ago) but in Norway I believe they have the full suite of benefits
accorded mixed-gender couples.

***--------+----------------------------------------------------------***
*  ______  |  Mike! <=> Mike W. Miller           office:  219 239-8024  *
|  \    /  |  e-mail:  Mike.W.Miller@nd.edu    home/fax:  219 237-0788  |
|   \  /   +------------------------------------------------------------+
|    \/    |  Silence=Death                                Action=Life  |
*          |  Office of University Computing, University of Notre Dame  *
***--------+----------------------------------------------------------***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 10:20:00 EDT
Subject: WaH
From: An Anonymous Sender

Thanx to shimi for bringing up the exact scene I was thinking of.  Until
the rape-turned-rough sex thing I was uncomfortable but prepared to stay
til the end.

A few thing bothered me about this scene.  The first was the way Laura
dern's character was faced with a rape situation which turned into a sexual
turn-on for her.  Then she not only gets hot, but actually *asks* for it!!!
 As if anyone I know (male or female) when faced with a violent assault
like that would be sexually excited.  It supported the "she asked for it,
wanted it" argument that so many perpetrators of rape rely on for their
defense.  Worse still, it invited rape as a possible fantasy come true.  As
if to say, "if you really want her/him you just have to apply some force
and eventually s/he will give in to *true* desire"   ACK, I RUN SCREAMING
FROM THIS NOTION!!!   Well actually, I ran crying, but thats incidental.

Also, we'd already been flashing back to the character's childhood in which
she was raped by her uncle, impregnated and then underwent a abortion.  So
what is DL trying to say?  If they're raped once they're bound to enjoy it
again...maybe thats proof it was enjoyed the first time....see, rape isn't
so bad.   Does anyone feel nauseas besides me?

Come on!  Male or female, whether it was you who experienced an assault or
someone you love, you _have_ to look at this scene with a raised eyebrow at
the very least.  While it does focus on the way females are portrayed, it
has consequences that effect both sexes.  RAPE IS NOT SEX.

As far as the rest of the movie, well, I personally thought the
representation of the desperate women were taken too far.  Also, back to
Ms. Dern's character, what does it mean when a character portrayed as a
nymph flashes back to her childhood rape after sex with her boyfriend?  And
lets face it, while a lot of these points can be carried over to men, they
are not perpetuated by the media.  It is extrodinarily rare that you will
see a scene involving male rape to begin with, and to further add the
notion of the male victim _enjoying_ his attack is something I personally
have never heard of as a _popular_ movie theme.  However, it is often
portrayed in stories about women, and not just stories, but court
cases..i.e. life.  The only themes *I* have seen involving the rape of a
man, in popular media, leave the audiance horrified that it could happen.
And it IS horrifying!  But no one I've ever heard says "he was asking for
it, did you see how he was dressed?" or "he wanted it, he just needed a
little convincing"  Please keep in mind, I'm NOT SAYING IT DOESN"T HAPPEN,
only that in the media, and in our society, it is women who are the focus
of that kind of "sex-toy" thinking _most of the time._  I just wish that
movies etc. would stop supporting that view of women.

I've got a younger sister going to college this year who I am afraid for
and I wish I didn't have to be.
The sad truth is, I have reason to be.



"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is.  I
only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that
differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute."   -Rebecca West, 1913

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 10:17 CDT
From: PPSY1937@selu.edu
Subject: Re: motss
X-Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

motss = (? mammel ?) of the same sex ...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 11:08 EST
From: XXHARK@INDSVAX1.INDSTATE.EDU
Subject: Designer attitudes (phhheeewww)

>James,

>I did not partake in the sigfile war, could *YOU* give me
>directions to the "pathetic attitudes shitpile"?

>thanks, kara

For a really classy attitude, you have to go to Bloomingdale's,
third floor, find the Madonna section and hang a right. K-Mart
has them for less, but they're less convincing and can be
terribly obnoxious. If we're lucky, some on this net who tried to
save a few bucks still have their sales slips...

[To clarify my earlier post, by "attitudes" I meant the
pointlessly defensive tone of many of these posts. I would not
call "ideas" or "opinions" pathetic, unless they come from Jesse
Helms...but in this argument I have seen lots of attitude and not
much worth thinking about.]


** Lavender channel, huh? I'll sign up, but only if they include
all of Goran Ivanisevich's matches...


James Harkins -- XXHARK@INDSVAX1.INDSTATE.EDU

"*******GIANT UNDERPANTS!!!!*******" -- Pee-Wee Herman

------------------------------

From: gordon linoff <gordon@Think.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 12:11:47 EDT
Subject: [lotus!LDBVAX!CRD.."Bill Truax@LOTUS"@uunet.UU.NET: L. L. Bean and the
 right wing]

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 10:13:42 EDT
From: lotus!LDBVAX!CRD.."Bill Truax@LOTUS"@uunet.UU.NET
To: (See Inner Header) VIA.LDBVAX.Postmaster.V2.3@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: L. L. Bean and the right wing

~~inner_header~~
To: CRD::"J Harvie"
To: CRD::"LarryMynatt"
To: CRD::"Gordonl"
Subject: L. L. Bean and the right wing

Topic:	L. L. Bean and the right wing
Author:	Polly Laurelchild
Date:	09:38 AM Today


It's probably no surprise to you that L.L. Bean (long a supporter of nuclear
power plants among other things), camping and hunting supplier to the nation,
is also anti-gay.  L.L. Bean gives a lot of $$ to fund right-wing activities
(similar to Coors, Papa Gino's and others).  The following info comes from
another db.  Feel free to copy it to others.  I think the idea of boycotting
L.L. Bean is a good one.

- Polly

New York Times ran a story yesterday about one of the owners of LL Bean,
Linda Bean.  She is running as a republican for a state representative
position in Maine.  The Times stated "Ms. Bean is an outspoken
conservative.  She is opposed to abortion rights, gay rights legislation
and gun control and she believes in Ronald Reagan's program that tax cuts
will spur economic growth and lower the deficit."  Democratic incumbent
Thomas Andrews "supports abortion rights and is a sponsor of gay rights
legislation."

It's time to let LL Bean know that we will not support companies who's
owners seek to deny us basic human rights.   Last night Clare and I sent
back our LL Bean catalogues and asked to be removed from their mailing
list.  We stated that we are boycotting the company and ask others to do so
also.

Please pass the word.

kellus

------------------------------

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