HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Resurrection day
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:01:51 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

In article <9204101659.AA01563@abvax.icd.ab.com>  writes:
>    You can relax Tom. There is no commandment to celebrate a 
>    feast called "Resurrection Day" that I know of. The day I 
>    reference is the day of resurrection of Messiah Yeshua.
>    Some of us who are in the body of Messiah celebrate it as a 
>    freewill act of worship of Messiah's triumph over death, as 
>    God showed HIS approval of Messiah Yeshua by raising Yeshua 
>    from the grave. ...

Oh, you mean Easter.  :-)

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: etxtdi@diana4.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson TM/JLE 95406)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Date: 13 Apr 92 07:04:09 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <1992Apr10.185906.16719@news.eng.convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.143319.13944@ericsson.se> etxtdi@diana4.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson TM/JLE 95406) writes:
>                         [...]
>> It seems that pre-millianism (belief that the arrival of Jesus is
>>after the millenium) is connected with the view that the Jews 
>>(the physical decendandts of Abraham) are today excluded from
>>any kind of covenant with G-d.
>
>This is one of the craziest things I've heard yet in this
>newsgroup.  Where did you get this idea?  Can you name one
>premillenialist who has suggested such a thing?
>

 Yeah Steve, this was the crazies thing me too have seen !
I was obviousely so overworked at friday afternoon enough
to switch pre- and post-millenialism. 
My post was mainly underlining what you wrote Steve.

The essence of what I tried to say was thgat post-millenialist
tend to lean at a view of "the old Jews are down and out.
They will have to become like us before we can talk...".

Sorry for the mistake.
/Tord
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Persecution of Jews
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:36:55 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <1992Apr7.092926.15750@pbs.org> btiffany@pbs.org writes:
>
>You never answered me and Daniel Segard regarding who "the least of these
>My brethren" are.

Yes, I did.  I explained the passage in the light of Matthew 12:49,50.
Perhaps that message never arrived at your site.

>Does this mean you will speak out when the Jews are persecuted, even if
>some of the persecutors are part of the Church?

Absolutely.

>But in the meantime, while the persecutors do the bidding of their father
>the devil, what will you do?  (Be sure of your reply, because you will have
>the opportunity to make good on what you say.)

I will continue to speak out against those who are behaving contrary to the
law of God.  It doesn't matter whether they are white supremacists in the
US, or Israeli soldiers in the "west bank."

>>And how precisely does the Church act like Esther to protect the Jews?  I
>>would assume the only way to accomplish this task is to convert the
>>persecutors.  No?
>
>Is that what Esther did?

The way I read the story, her words and actions certainly affected the 
heart of the king.  You might call that a "conversion" of sorts.

>>Got your new crystal ball polished?  ... We'll see how well you do.  By
>>God's grace I'll be around in 1993 to do a sanity check.
>
>I said I expected it NO EARLIER than 1993.

Why the delay?

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: BENNING@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com.mu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: re:pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:10:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: abvax.9204071421.AA25403

>Subj:	RE: Pesach and Easter -- 1854
>From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
>Subject:Re: Pesach and Easter
>Date: 6 Apr 1992 14:43:30 -0700
>
>In article <1992Apr6.130123.1@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au> b_robinson@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au writes:
>>Looking at the calendar last night, I noticed that the Passover falls on Easter
>>this year (i.e. they coincide).
>
>Shouldn't they *always* coincide?
>
>Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh

 Some people do seem confused. When asked what day EASTER falls on, I
 respond, "If you mean the RESURRECTION Day, it falls a few days after
 the Passover. If you mean the celebration of SPRING, I don't really 
 know."

 --- Bruce Benning
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: proper wording of ?
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 17:04:01 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <kuar65INNbrh@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
|> To my very simple mind, Dan 9:24-27 tells us when the Messiah will
|> arrive, and also says that He will have arrived *before* Yerushalayim
|> and the Temple are destroyed.  This points to Yeshua.  So I think He's
|> the Messiah.
|> 
|> I want to have a *Rabbinic* *Jewish* interpretation of this passage from
|> the Tanach.  So, I'm going to ask several prominent rabbis here in Los
|> Angeles.  But, before I ask, I would like some of the Rabbinic Jews here
|> to provide me with the "proper" wording for the question.  As long as
|> you really ask the question "What does Dan 9:25-26 mean, and why doesn't
|> it refer to Yeshua?", I'll use your wording.  So, provide your desired
|> wording to be presented to Los Angeles Jewry.
|> 
|> By the way, Rob and Rob, I'm still waiting to hear what *you* think this
|> passage means.  I await both your interpretation, and your desired
|> wording of the question.
|> 
I already posted a suggestion for the exact wording
of your question.  It appears in my post <1992Mar05.211520.12924@watson.ibm.com>
Here it is below:

"I am participating in discussions of comparative
religions on a worldwide electronic bulletin board.
A discussion has arisen regarding Daniel 9.
As you may know, many Christians interpret
verses 25-26 as a precise prediction of the
date of the Messiah, and believe that these
predictions exactly match the time of Jesus.

I would be very interested in knowing the Jewish
perspective on these verses.  I would appreciate
a response citing authoritative Jewish sources.
If there are differences of opinion or interpretation, a sample of
these differences would also be appreciated.

I would also be very grateful if you could grant
me permission to post your response, with appropriate
attribution, to our electronic bulletin board.

Thank you very much for your assistance, ...."


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Pesach and Easter
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:35:48 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <ku1hg2INNapf@pollux.usc.edu> kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
>>Looking at the calendar last night, I noticed that the Passover falls on Easter
>>this year (i.e. they coincide).
>
>Shouldn't they *always* coincide?

Depends ... since most Messianic Jews believe that "Easter" is a pagan
religion started by "gentile Christians" opposed to the Jewish foundation
of their religion.

Or so I've been told ...

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: b_robinson@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au
Subject: attention: Bruce Benning
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:59:57 +1000

Sorry to use the net for this, but I'm having trouble getting email to Bruce
Benning.

Bruce,

The following will probably be self explanatory. I hope so, anyway, and that
this doesn't cause you any embarrasment!

From our mail system:

While talking to astro.pc.ab.com:
>>> RCPT To:<BruceBENNING@astro.pc.ab.com>
<<< 550 User "BruceBENNING" Unknown.
550 <BruceBENNING@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com>... User unknown

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Received: from leven.appcomp.utas.edu.au by diemen.utas.edu.au with SMTP id
AA12047
  (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for BruceBENNING@astro.pc.ab.com); Wed, 15 Apr 92 17:50:14
+1000
Received: from [144.6.50.83] by leven (4.1/SMI-4.1)
	id AA02800; Wed, 15 Apr 92 17:49:46 EST
Message-Id: <9204150749.AA02800@leven>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 17:53:40 +1200
To: Bruce, BENNING@astro.pc.ab.com
From: brobinso@leven.appcomp.utas.edu.au
Subject: earlier mail:Passover

Dear Bruce,
           I sent you a letter about a week ago, but unfortunately, I
REPLYed to the address from which you post NEWS items on alt.messianic.

The substance of my letter (of which I don't unfortunately have a copy,
since our news reader uses a different mailer than the one I'm using), was
as follows:

It related to a posting you made about Passover Haggadahs. I expressed some
interest and enquired into:

1.    The meaning of 'seder' and 'haggadah'. I assumed the former was the
term for the Passover meal, and the latter, a liturgy to be said with it
(for want of a better word). Last Sunday, my minister, who is going to
celebrate a service tomorrow night based on the passover, said that 'seder'
and 'haggadah' are synonyms.

2.    Could you please send me a copy of any haggadahs(? - whatever you
posted about) that you like?

Thank you,

Shalom,

Barrie.

--
Barrie Robinson,                  |email:
brobinso@leven.appcomp.utas.edu.au
University of Tasmania at Launceston.  |phone:  (61)(003)260211
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: date of Easter
Date: 12 Apr 92 02:16:23 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <kubvqoINNr42@pollux.usc.edu> kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
>
>So Bruce Benning was right.  If someone asks you when Easter is, you
>should probably reply that you don't care about any pagan fertility
>festivals, but that RESURRECTION DAY is 3 days after Pesach.

You mean to say, "resurrection day WAS 3 days after Passover."

According to the way the new covenant reckons things, Passover is no more. 
And there is no command in the Scripture to celebrate an annual feast of
"resurrection day" (or Easter for that matter).

Christians celebrate the reality of Our Lord's resurrection every Sunday.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 22:17:09 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Apr3.185756.1707@athena.cs.uga.edu> hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:
                                [...]
>We know that God is the potter and we are the clay.  Why do we need to 
>discuss whether free will is really free will at all?

Which was my point exactly.  I found it humorous and sad that the very
statement that we have free will (without delineating any implications)
brought out such a strong outburst.
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V  
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Questions for Rob Strom
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:44:39 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr9.143652.15778@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:
|> I've been ruthlessly cleaning out my alt.messianic stuff, and I've come across
|> some items for which I am still quite interested in seeing some followup.  To
|> wit, I have not yet heard Rob Strom's view on Daniel 9:24-27.  I am most
|> curious to see what you have to say about it, Rob.
|> 

Well I think you have more unanswered questions from me
than the other way around. 

Also you ask me to avoid looking up other sources, but
you then supply historical information from a history
book.

My view of Daniel is that it was written during the
Hasmonean period.  That it was "attributed" to
Daniel the same way the song of Solomon was
"attributed" to Solomon, and the psalms of
David were "attributed" to David.

It is mystic literature and *not* prophecy.  It's
not included with the books of the prophets.

It summarizes the history of the post-Babylonian
period.  It follows with a mystic prediction
of two messiah-kings.

I don't see any relevance between the Book of Daniel
and Jesus.  Any "predictions of Jesus" in the
Bible would have to come from older sources.
What do you think Jews believed about the Messiah
before the book of Daniel was written?


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Arabs in and around Israel
Date: 12 Apr 92 10:16:55 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Turku

I found some interesting verses from Jeremiah concerning Eretz Israel 
and her neighbours, i.e. Arabs:

Jer. 12:14-17: 'This is what the LORD says: "As for all my wicked 
   neighbours who seize the inheritance I gave to my people Israel,
   I will uproot them from their lands and I will uproot the house
   of Judah from among them. But after I uproot them, I will again 
   have compassion and will bring each of them back to his own 
   inheritance and his own country. And if they learn well the ways
   of my people and swear by my name, saying, 'As surely as the LORD
   lives' - even as they once taught my people to swear by Baal -
   then they will be established among my people. But if any nation
   does not listen, I will completely uproot and destroy it," declares
   the LORD.'

In fact, after thinking a bit more, this might apply slightly wider 
than just to Arabs, i.e. to all Gentile nations.

Any comments? What is the postmillenial interpretation? ;-)

- Laura

--
"Ve'ahavta et YHVH Eloheicha bechol-levavcha uv'chol-nafshecha
uv'chol-me'odecha" (Deut. 6:5)

Loving truth is loving God.
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: rob Strom & MJ front speculation
Date: 15 Apr 92 04:07:37 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

Rob Strom writes:
> My brother-in-law was converted by the Jews for Jesus,
> which I think you would call today a "Messianic Jewish"
> congregation.  My sister-in-law was converted by
> her brother-in-law.

I've heard of that group.  "Jews [sic] for Jesus" is a Charter Member
of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.

Other Charter Members include "Chosen People Ministries" and
"The Messianic Vision."  Among their subsidiaries is "American
Board for Missions to the Jews."
 
ECFA principles include "We believe in the spiritual unity of believers
in our Lord Jesus Christ" and "We believe in the deity of Christ."

Does anyone out there still deny that Messianic Judaism [sic] is a
Christian movement behind a Jewish facade?  If they're not, then what
are they doing in the ECFA?

R
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The heavenly Jerusalem
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:48:48 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <22426@goofy.Apple.COM> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
in a previous post you wrote,
"Van Impe is especially good at twisting the word of God."

You write the above, and then you write the following.

>I think it's interesting to note that we who don't believe in ancient
>nomad-based superstition including deamons, spirits, original sins 
>and so on, we have a far better way of living our lives, compared with
>people that have to worry about deamons, the devil, sinning, the hell,
>and so on.

A person with AIDS might live a worry free life untill the disease
begins to affect him.  I don't mean to imply you have a devil because
I don't have such information.  But sin, devils, and hell are all mentioned
in the word of God.  If you don't believe these things, why would you think
that it is wrong for, as you say, for Van Impe to twist the word of God?
I am not trying to imply that I agree that he twists the word.  I don't
necessarily agree with everything he says, but I have no reason to 
believe that he willfully decieves.)  

If you have not seen evidence for something, that does not mean that it 
does not exist.  I have never seen a demon, but I know two people who have
seen such manifestations.  
If you do not believe in sin, then do you believe that Christ died and rose
again?

>If you would like to live a rich and worryless life, give up on 
>superstition! 

Knowledge of such things should not produce fear.  We have the Spirit of
power, and love, and not of fear.  It is better to have knowledge of 
some of the "unnatractive" aspects of the truth, than to live worry
free until we pay the price for our ignorance or willful disbelief.

Link Hudson.
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The heavenly Jerusalem
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:26:51 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1800

>Subject: Re: The heavenly Jerusalem
>From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
>Date: 30 Mar 92 15:45:32 GMT

>>Yeshua had just cast *demons* out of a man (12:22); the P'rushim accused Him
>>of driving out *demons* by the ruler of demons.  12:28 shows that He is
>>talking about driving demons out of individuals (not driving Satan out of
>>the world).  The analogy of 12:29 is given in that context.
>>
>>You said: "Jesus says Satan, 'the strong man,' has been bound ..."
>>
>>WHERE does Jesus say this?
> 
>The message of Jesus seems quite clear (at least it would have to His 1st
>century Jewish audience).  Who is the ruler of the demons?  Satan.  For
>Jesus to be able to have power of the demons, He would first have to get
>power over the prince of the demons, Satan.  This is started in Matthew 4,
>the confrontation between Jesus and Satan, and was ultimately accomplished
>in the further events in the life, death, resurrection and ascension of
>Messiah.
> 
>But tell me, how was Jesus able to cast out demons?  How was Jesus able to
>plunder the household of Satan, unless He first bound Satan?  Or isn't
>Jesus plundering Satan's household?

You really don't care what the context is.  You're bound and determined to
twist scripture to fit your notions.

The "house" is the man, the "strongman" is the demon.  You might understand
this better if you had ever dealt with demonized people.

>  By your interpretation(?) verse 29 is
>meaningless because the impact of it doesn't fit with your theology of
>defeat.

And what is your "optimistic eschatology" accomplishing?  Our "theology of
defeat" is proven.  Demons are cast out, sick folk are healed, pornographers
are run out of town, the gospel is preached to Jews and Gentiles, and plenty
of each are being added to the Kingdom.  Is this the "theology of defeat"
you are referring to?

You remind me of an armchair critic, criticizing those who are on the field
playing the game.  At least we're out there in the mud, engaging the enemy
and winning.

>How 'bout the passage from John 12:31?  Were you able to exegete that
>passage?  Perhaps that will help you understand that Satan at that time was
>being judged AND CAST OUT from the world (or doesn't it really say that,
>either).

That's right, because it 's not true.  He was expelled from heaven (not from
"the heavens").  No longer would he accuse us before the throne of God or have
direct access to the throne, as he did in the time of Job.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power
____/__\____		of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the
\  / || \  /		Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the
 \/--++--\/		righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith;
 /\  ||  /\		as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live
/  \ || /  \		by faith."
----\--/----						-- Romans 1:16-17
     \/			-- Bruce Tiffany
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer)
Subject: Re: re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:13:21 GMT

>|> >Speaking of Passover...as a gentile christian I have always thought
>|> >that we have lost a great deal by ignoring our Jewish heritage. In
>|> >particular since we believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of the
>|> >passover lamb it seems that Passover should be a very important event
>|> >for us. I also note that Communion was instituted at the Passover and
>|> >Jesus said "as often as you do this do it in remembrance of me". I can
>|> >only assume that the this that he referred to was Passover. ...
>|> 
>|> I would not make such an assumption.
>
>I don't even understand Michael's paragraph.  He's using
>the word "fulfillment" in a technical sense different
>from the technical sense which Laura Manninen defined
>earlier.  What does it mean for a person to fulfill a lamb?

Sorry that I wasn't clear. I admit my construction was poor. The idea
is that the lamb was a representation of a future sacrifice. Christ's
sacrifice then was the reality of which the passover lamb was a symbol.
I am sure that not everyone would agree with this concept but it is the
basis for my interest in the details of the passover cerimony.

>Incidentally in an earlier posting about Passover, I pointed
>out that the original passover (from Torah) required not *a* lamb, but
>multiple lambs, a different one for each household.  What
>do you believe is the connection between these multiple lambs
>and the single Jesus?

I see no problem here. Each individual was involved with only one
lamb. If the passover lamb was a symbol of the coming redeemer then
it is obvious that those who participate will create more instances
of the sysmbol than there are of the actual event.

				mike
Newsgroups: alt.messianic