From: prevmary@otago.ac.nz
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: summary:places to live (long)
Date: 10 Nov 92 14:28:57 +1300
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

This is a summary of the replies I've had on nice places to live in the USA.
Ive tried to remove all identifying details and I've removed all rude and nasty
comments (yes, there were a few) so I hope I dont offend anyone.

Im not interested in a flame war so dont bother.
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I can't speak for the availability of jobs, but you should check out
the Research Triangle area (Chapel Hill, Durham, and Raleigh) of
North Carolina.  The C.S. department at the University of North Carolina
in Chapel Hill is one of the leading spots for computer modeling of
protein structures.  (Besides, I got my Ph.D. from that department,
though not in anything related to that....)  There are major universities
in all three cities; two of them have large medical schools, especially
Duke Univeristy in Durham.  And there are several large drug companies
with research centers in Research Triangle Park itself.
   The area is getting a bit crowded, but is still nice.  Naturally,
one can trade driving time for rural atmosphere, but the tradeoff
isn't that great -- I think one can still live on a farm, and be
less than 30 minutes from Duke or UNC (I don't know about N.C. State
in Raleigh).  And it's much warmer in the winter than Madison....
____________________________________________________________________
Why, given your description, I think that you should have moved to
the Research Triangle Park area of North Carolina *long* ago!
RTP is the area between Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill, pretty much
in the center of the state.
   There are several companies in the area for which a biochemist could
work, including Burroughs-Wellcom (sp?) and Glaxo, both very successful
companies.  I don't know anything about epidemiology, but this area is
a large medical community, including Duke University in Durham (Durham
is called the "city of medicine").
   I work for Data General in RTP, and we live in the town of Cary (just
outside of Raleigh).  I have about a 20 minute commute into RTP, mostly
near pretty countryside.  Other people that work here live in Raleigh,
Durham, or Chapel Hill, and they all have pretty much a 10-30 minute
commute, depending where they live.

This area has grown quite a bit in the past 20 years, and that growth
has brought significant improvement in the cultural scene.  Three major
universities are in the area -- University of North Carolina (in Chapel
Hill), North Carolina State University (in Raleigh), and Duke (in Durham),
and besides all the wonderful events that the universities have, there are
a lot of other city or community theatre groups, orchestras or bands (I
play tuba in the Cary Town Band), dance festivals, athletic events, etc.

The public schools seem reasonably good (the highest scores in North
Carolina for any of the "standardized exams" are in the RTP area);
there are also some outstanding private schools, including the nationally
reknowned School of Math and Science.  Our daughter is only 2, so we
haven't familiarized ourselves much with the school systems yet.

This area is mostly safe, depending where you live.  Durham has probably
the highest crime rate, though parts of Durham are very very nice.  Raleigh
is pretty safe, Chapel Hill is completely safe, and crime is almost unheard
of in Cary (even with a population of 45,000 people).

The RTP area is about 2.5 hours from the ocean (driving, not walking  8-)
and 2.5-4.5 hours from the mountains, depending where in the mountains
you wish to travel.

We enjoy
gardening, orienteering (running through the forest with a map and compass,
trying to not get lost!), running, and other outdoor activities.  Before we
had our daughter we were regular theatre-goers, attending plays in Raleigh,
Chapel Hill, and Durham frequently.

Let's see ... what else ... the people here are *extremely* friendly,
and it's a relatively "laid-back" pace.  Not too rushed ...
Anyway, we enjoy the quality of life in this area.  I've lived all over
the US (Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, Tennessee, Indiana, Virginia, 
Washington, D.C, and upstate New York), and *this* is where I want
to stay! North Carolina *is* a nice place to visit *and* live!
___________________________________________________________________________
I certainly understand your predicament as my husband and I (and 13-month old
daughter) are quite probably going to be moving from South Florida to the 
suburbs of Seattle in the next month or two.  Having been to NZ on a two
week vacation last April and having visited Seattle two weekends ago to 
check out housing I would venture to say that you'd probably like the Pacific
Northwest quite a bit.  There seem to be quite a few high tech jobs in Seattle
and it's outskirts.  My husband will be working at one of the biggest medical
labs in the region.  Housing is expensive (very) but it sounds like your 
careers would bring you enough salary to buy a nice house.  Be prepared to
spend in the $250,000 range for a nice house in a nice neighborhood.  That's
equivalent to about $500,000NZ, right?  Schools are supposedly very good and
roses would THRIVE in that environment.  There is much skiing closeby but
the weather is relatively temperate (snows once a year).  Dreary days are 
the norm unfortunately, but I hear Spring and Summer are wonderful.  I have
several friends that have left South Florida for Portland and they love it.
From what I understand housing is considerably cheaper in Portland than Seattle.
The terrain in middle Washington state is very much like NZ from the pictures
I seen.  Good luck in you decision.  I have a feeling you'd like the Pacific
NW a lot.  Nice people there too.

Whoever said LA was not a nice place for kids was right!  Add South Florida
too.
__________________________________________________________________________
	I live near Madison, Wisconsin.  
	We moved here 3 years ago from Minneapolis, Minnesota.  My husband
is an Electrical Engineer, and I am a Computer Programmer.  We both work
for the University of Wisconsin.  We LOVE it here!  
	Minneapolis is a nice area, nice people good schools etc.  But
we found that it was too large for us, and growing (2 Million in the
metro area).
	We moved to Madison when my husbands plant closed in St. Paul. 
We had lots of offers for many different parts of the country.  We decided
on Madison and are now very glad we did.  The University is an Excellent
place to work, (great benefits, nice environment etc.)  Madison has
very good schools, and because of it being a very "white collar" area,
it is a very economically stable area.  Madison is the capitol of Wisconsin
it is also the County seat of Dane county, and has the university (approx.
40,000 students).  Madison has lots of nice parks, 4 lakes, theaters, 
concerts, farmers markets etc.  To us it has all the conveniences and
culture of a large city but it still has a small town feel.  It also does 
not have large city problems of traffic and crime (they do exist, but not
like Milwaukee or Chicago).   

	We live about 20 miles south of Madison,  where we bought a farmette.
We were very interested in living in the country, and have been very happy 
there.  Just for reference Madison and area homes sell for $ 80-120 K.
Country homes like ours are readily available and affordable.  We have
18 acres and are right next to about 3000 acres of public land.  We
have lots of room for hiking, and running our dogs.  Wisconsin people
are very friendly, and it is pretty easy to make friends here.  
	On the down side taxes are kinda high.  Wisconsin has been listed
as a "Tax Hell" in the states.  But people do not move away because of high
taxes, the quality of life is just too high.  We recently gave birth to our
first daughter.  We are looking forward to raising  her here and really
are glad we chose Madison to live.  The small town (1400 pop) we live near
has a very good school, with small classes (15/class).  There are wonderful
small town activities and socials almost every month.   
____________________________________________________________________________
You may want to look into the Research Triangle Park area of North Carolina.
Duke medical center is excellent (in Durham NC).  University of
North Carolina - Chapel Hill is excellent for computer science.  They
do a lot of work on modelling molecules using graphics.
UNC also has a medical center.  There are several high-tech and
biotech companies in RTP.

The area is lovely, fairly inexpensive,  and progressive.  Chapel Hill,
in particular, is a nice town.  The other points of the triangle are
Durham (8 miles from C.H.) and Raleigh (25 miles from C.H., closer to
Durham - state capitol, home of N.C. State University).

I'm from Canada and did my doctorate in CS at UNC.  We now live in
Boston but are trying very hard to move back.  The cost of living and
the pace of iving here are driving us nuts.  There was certainly some
culture shock moving from Canada to the southern US, but Chapel Hill
is definitely not a redneck town.
_______________________________________________________________________-- 
San Diego, CA is a nice area.  You wouldn't want to live
in the city it's self.  But the suburbs are very nice.  I
live in La Costa which is part of Carlsbad, CA.  It is not
as cheap as most areas of the contry, but not as expensive
and massive as LA.  The weather is nice most of the year,
people are family oriented and sports minded.  There are
quite a few Biotechnical (sp?) firms in the  La Jolla area.

Oregon is nice, but it rains quiet a bit and is too cold for me.
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We have lived all over the US. We lived in 
the Midwest (too boring), Austin Texas (friendly people, but too hot), 
and in New Hampshire (beautiful, but the North East is crowded, and the 
people tend to be too reserved).  We now live in Portland Oregon and love 
it.  It's beautiful here, with a wide variety of climates and scenery 
within an hour or two driving distance.  The climate is mild.  You may find
the winters too rainy, but the four summers we have spent here have all
featured long, sunny, warm spells.  Winter sometimes seems like one long,
wet Autumn, but True Winter is an hour's drive away on Mt. Hood. The mountains
around here are mostly volcanic (you may remember the eruption of Mt. St. Helens
in 1980, about 60 mi. from Portland) and offer some really nice skiing.  In
addition, the ocean (with one of the most spectacular coasts in the world) is
only about an hour's drive to the West (the water is very cold). The public 
schools seem to be good enough (there is an unresolved funding issue, with
some schools much better supported than others), and there are a variety of
good private schools available.  As with most cities, there are some sections
with high crime rates, but on the West side (Beaverton) where we live, this is 
not a major problem.  Finally, the economy is still pretty good around here 
(knock on wood), and you might even be able to find work.  You might look into
the Oregon Health Sciences University (3181 SW Sam Jackson Park Rd., Portland,
Phone - (503) 494-8311), but about all I know about the place is that they do
medical/biological research.

I would suggest you look into the entire North West (Seattle is beautiful, 
but much wetter than Portland).  Vancouver B.C. is even more beautiful than
Portland, but I don't know much about the economy there.

P.S. Our kids also love it here, and there is no shortage of fun things for
them to do.
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We live in Boulder, Colorado.  We like it a lot.  I'd consider it ideal,
except I'm not really a cold-weather person (grew up on the California
coast).  Our winters are not really that difficult to deal with, though.
And if you enjoy skiing, well, this is the place!

Boulder has about 95,000 residents.  There is a fairly large university
here (University of Colorado at Boulder, or CU for short), which provides
a lot of academic and cultural influence.  CU professor Thomas Cech (sp?)
is a Nobel prize-winning chemist.

The economy in Boulder has been pretty steady for several years (while
the rest of Colorado was in a slump).  Now, Colorado's economy in general
is improving, and Boulder is riding the crest of that wave, too.  There
are a few large-ish employers in Boulder County (mine is one of them)
but there a lots of smaller employers, too.  The industries I'm thinking
of are high-tech, computer-related fields.  There are also several
pharmaceutical-related employers here, maybe that would be more in your
realm. 

My kids are not of school age yet, but the schools do have a pretty good
reputation.  I think Boulder is a great place for raising kids.  There
always seems to be some sort of festival or fair with kids activities
galore.  Our public library has a great children's section, and regular
story-telling programs.  There are a fair number of parks, and (I'm told)
a great system of bike paths.  The mountains are as close as can be for
day hikes, and of course skiing in the winter (I'm not a skiier, though).

About housing...Boulder is generally more expensive than Denver (which
is about a 45 minute drive to the southeast).  Boulder is very concerned
about growth, and is committed to insulating the area from expansion by
purchasing surrounding land and designating it "open space".  This puts
a premium on Boulder real estate.  Newer, neighboring communities seem to
be more growth-oriented.  Anyway, a decent, 3-bedroom home can be had in
Boulder proper for around $150-200K (US).  A comparable home in nearby
Louisville would probably be around $100-150K.

We have our share of crime (who doesn't) but fortunately violent crime
is pretty rare.  We don't have street gangs or anything like that (though
Denver does).

Boulder has a lovely pedestrian mall downtown lined with quaint shops
and restaurants.  There are often "street performers" there on the
weekends, playing music, etc.  The fairs and festivals that I mentioned
above usually take place down on the mall.  It's a fun spot.

About weather...I joke that we have two seasons here, summer and winter.
Well, there may be a couple of weeks in between known as spring and fall.
But seriously...our coldest months are December, January, and February,
during which you can expect a snowstorm to hit about once every two weeks
or so (sometimes they're more frequent, sometimes less).  Temperatures
range from near 0F (nighttime lows) to the 30s (daytime highs).  Our
hottest months are June, July, and August, when temperatures range from
60F (nighttime lows) to the 90s (daytime highs).  The other months are
really quite pleasant.  Most days are sunny (even in the cold of winter).
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You may want to look here at Pittsburgh, PA.  The research at Carnegie
Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh may supply jobs for
both you & your husband.

We have been rated in the top 10 places to live in the US for the last 5
years or so - affordable housing, good schools (suburban or parochial
[city school leave a bt to be desired]), low crime rate, etc.  I came
out here in 1978 (from suburban Phialdelphia) to study at the University
of Pittsburgh and have stayed.

Pittsburgh itself (the city) is a collection of small neighborhood; some
are nicer than others.  My husband & I have a house that's about a 20
minute drive from campus, during rush hour (before 9 am).  We have 3
churches and 3 elementary schools within walking distance of our 3
bedroom house, which is on a bus line directly into downtown Pittsburgh
and 3 blocks from a bus to come to campus.

I like Pittsburgh because it is a nice blend of the cosmopolitan life
found on the east & west coasts (New York and Los Angeles), but still
has a lot of the comfort of a small town or suburbia.  My sister lives
in Nashville & really misses museums, symphony orchestras, good schools
& libraries & decent theatre.  My brother is in Connecticut & has a hard
time with living expenses because the cost of living is so high up there
(housing is outrageous).  My paretns are in North Carolina, on the
mainland, but near the Outer Banks (not in the Mountains).  They like
the area, weather, people, etc, but miss city life and have warned us
that the schools are not very good.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't even describe my own area, without spending the rest of the 
afternoon typing!  I live in Rochester, NY, and am really happy with
it.  It's a relatively small city (in fact, people from "real" cities,
like New York or LA, have trouble even referring to it as a city :-).
The population is fairly wealthy, though, so it supports a nice selection
of arts and culture, in spite of being small.  There's lots of parks.
There are 4 universities, and a community college in the Greater Rochester
area, and a state college about 45 minutes away.

Even though there's a lot here, other things aren't far away.  New York
City is about 4.5 hours away, Buffalo is less than 2 hours away, and 
Toronto is about 4 hours away.  Rochester is on the Genessee River and
Lake Ontario.  The big employers are Eastman Kodak and Xerox.  I work
for Kodak, although I just came here about 4 years ago from a smaller
company.  You don't have to go far to get away from the city, if that's
what you like.  I commute 25 minutes, and my house is on the side of
a hill, on well water and septic system.  Across the street is an 85
acre fruit and vegetable farm, and up and over the hill behind me is 110
acre dairy farm.  Housing, in general, is very affordable here.  Not
as cheap as Buffalo, but not nearly as expensive as Boston or LA or 
some of the other places you mentioned.  A 3 or 4 bedroom suburban
home would probably run between $85,000 and $140,000 (depending on the
suburb!), with the average probably being right around $100,000.

To keep things in perspective, there's also things I _don't_ like about
this area.  New York has one of the highest, if not the highest, state
taxes.  (For details like this, magazines often run comparisons of 
states/cities ranking by taxes, cost of living, housing, benefits, etc.)
Climate is a big thing to think about.  Most people around here would
rather live further south to lessen the winters.  (I say most people,
though, because if anything, I would move further North).  I like natural
settings, and this area isn't as nice as further east (the Adirondack
Mountain area of New York, or off into New Hampshire or Vermont - though
there's not many jobs in the Adirondacks :-).
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You might want to consider the Triangle area of North Carolina.
It is bordered by the cities of Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill. 
It gets its name from Research Triangle Park, a planned research park
consisting of 60+ companies engaged in research and development in
fields such as electronics, pharmecuticals (Glaxo and Burroughs-Wellcome
are two that come to mind), computers (IBM is big here), environmental
concerns and the like.
The towns of Cary, Morrisville, Garner and Carboro border these cities.
I believe Cary was in the top ten of "best places to live in the US".

Some other info which might appeal to you:
- weather is temperate. I've lived here for 3 years (moved here from NYC to
give you some perpective) and I've yet to see any snow. The coldest I've
experienced has been 30 degrees F. We have short winters, December-February,
relatively rainy springs, and temperatures in the hottest months, July-August
can get in the upper 90's.
- mixture of rural, suburban and urban (but nothing like NYC).
-Housing is very affordable compared to other areas of the US, although
 housing in Chapel Hill is inflated compared to the other cities.
 For example, I bought a house in March and the price was $128,000US
 with 2,150 sq ft of space, 2 level with 4 bedrooms. Sits on
 a 1/3 acre wooded lot.
 Many neighborhood are parcel off into separate subdivisions and there
 are *lots* of subdivision around here.
- Durham, the City of Medicine is part of the Triangle. Duke University
  Medical Center and its associated research facilities are here.
- Duke University, North Carolina State University, University of
  North Carolina at Chapel Hill are located here. There are many
  cultural/educational events associated with these schools which
  are opened to the public to particpate in: theater/concerts/guest
  speakers/international festivals/clubs, etc. 
- Unemployment rate is now at 4%, compared to the rest of the US which is
  at 7%, I believe.
- Commutes between any of the two cities would take under 45 minutes.
  Commutes between any of the cities to Research Triangle Park take
  under 30 minutes. There are extensive secondary road systems. The
  main highway is I-40.
- 3.5 hr drive to the Blue Ridge Mountains, 3.5 hr drive to the beaches
  on the Atlantic Coast, 2.5 hour drive to Wilmington beaches.
  Many parks, nature trails, several lakes. The one thing which
  they don't have are extensive biking trails, but they are working on
  it and they do have a "Share-The-Road" program to enlighten motorist
  about sharing the roads with bikers. 
- Concerning gardening, most of the soil here is red clay, so
  gardeners do have to ameliorate the soil with lime and add topsoil.
  I believe that we are located in hardiness Zone 7 (and so 
  frost-conditions do occur occassionaly).
- I've no kids, but from what I've heard:
  Many good public schools, some controversy other starting year-round
  schooling. I've only heard bad things about Durham City Schools and this
  year, this system has merged with Durham County Schools, so there's hope
  that this will get better.  Several good private/parochial schools.
  From the looks of things in my neighborhood which is brimming with
  children under 13, school buses either pick up the student right in 
  from of their homes or at most at a central location not more than
  2-3 blocks from their homes.
  There are several YMCA/YWCAs in the area which have afterschool/Saturday
  programs for kids in such areas as swimming, crafts, etc. I know
  Cary has an Arts Center with programs for children.
  Many children here, both boys and girls from primary school through
  high school are into soccer and there are many teams to accommodate
  them.
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Well your parents are right about Portland, OR.  It is a nice place to
live!  We grow very nice roses here too.  I don't know about the job
market in your specialties though.
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Darn.  There went the Pacific Northwest.  Well, not really.  Just how _large_
of a house do you wish to own?
I can understand being upset at having to leave NZ.  I've heard it's a 
paradise of sorts.

I've lived in Louisiana, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, and Washington. I
liked the Atlanta area best, and here in the Seattle area the next.  Florida
was a distant third.  Louisiana is cold and wet in winter, and unbearably
hot in summer--not to mention their politics!  Connecticut was okay, but
nothing special.

Atlanta area:
 Problems: hot muggy summers, cool to semi-cold winters.
   Commuting can be hell, but if you live near the area where you work, you're
   okay.  Don't live in the city or inside the perimenter if you want to
   avoid crime (not that the suburbs are crime-free...)
 Advantages: You can get anywhere from Atlanta.
  Spring is absolutely HEAVEN--wonderful dogwoods, wonderful weather.
  Fall is nice, too.
  People are terrific!
  Property is CHEAP.
  Taxes aren't too bad, either. (depending on where you live)
  Home of the next World Series champs ;)
  Big-city advanatages with small-town atmosphere if you live in the
   suburbs.
  Pretty good schools in Cobb, Gwinnett, and North Fulton Counties.  Lots of
    private schools too if that's what you want.
  Nice subdivisions.
  Good scenery.
  Lots of history.

Seattle Area:
 Problems: Housing can be expensive.  Look carefully and don't expect too
  large of a house or be willing to commute.
  Traffic is getting worse, but.....(see advantages)
  over 8% sales tax, but...(see advantages)
 If you want to go to the east coast, it takes too long to drive and too
expensive to fly
 Advantages: weather is absolutely great.  Cool, dry summers; wet mild winters.
  good skiing nearby
  things are close so you don't have to drive far.
  no state income tex
  Gpood supply of fresh fruits and veggies
  Lots of great scenery and nearness of national parks and other recreational
   areas.
 People are good.
 Schools are good.
 Little crime.
 small-city atmosphere.
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Canada probably would be more like NZ.  I usually say that it is
half way between the US and England in terms of culture and
politics.  Everyone is "middle class" and there is much less poverty
and violence than the States.  However, there is really no
research money at all in comparison to the States.  There is some
good research done at universities, but no equivalent to Xerox Parc
and similar industrial research centers.

There are many pharmaceutical companies in the Parc.   Burroughs-Wellcome
and Glaxo (now bought by someone) come to mind immediately.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have also heard good things about Portland and Seattle Washington, although
they have many raining days.  Stay away from LA, San Francisco, New York,
Boston, Washington DC -- and any other big cities!!

I have to put in a positive vote for Colorado.  I have never lived in NZ, so
I can't compare it, but I have lived many places in the USA (Arizona, Colorado,
California, Florida, Virginia, Idaho, Alaska).  My favorites have been 
Colorado and Alaska.  Currently we live in Colorado Springs.  This "city" is
about 500,000 people (not small but not too big).  We are located at the
base of Pikes Peak and the Rocky Mountains.  The climate is wonderful here...
Our summer days range from 70-90 and our winters range from 20-50.  We do
have some very cold snaps in the winter, but we also have many mild days.
Colorado Springs is known for it's sunshine -- almost every day of the year
has atleast some sunshine.  We are about 60 miles from Denver (the big city)
and we are about 2 - 3 hours to several snow ski areas.  Although I am not
a fisherman, my father is and he claims that Colorado has great trout fishing.

I am not familiar with you particular professions, so I can't comment on finding
those types of jobs in Colorado.  If you are interested in teaching at the
college level, there are several universities in the state including
CU (University of Colorado - Boulder or Colorado Springs), CSU (Colorado State
University - Ft. Collins), Colorado College (Private Liberal Arts College in
Colorado Springs).  CU also has a medical school in Denver.

There are also several small towns/cities around Colorado Springs such as
Woodland park (in the mountains - 20-30 minute commute) and Black Forest 
(15-30 minute commute).  Between here and Denver is Castle Rock, and
North of Denver is Boulder and Ft. Collins (both smaller than Colo. Springs).
Both of these are college towns and have a really fun atmosphere.

We love it here, and we are raising our family here (Ryan is 18 months and we
have one due next May).  The schools are pretty good, but like most places,
they vary by district so it is important to get as much information before
you decide where to live/buy a house.   The average nice starter home in 
Colorado Springs is about $80,000 (in Denver about $100,000).  A pretty
nice home in Colorado Springs (3-4 bedrooms, nice area, nice yard about
2000+ sqft.) can be bought for about $100,000 to 150,000.  If you go
outside the city (Woodland Park or Black Forest) the prices go down and
the size of the land goes up.  I really don't know how these prices compare
to what you were expecting, but I can say that they are on the moderate
side for other places in this country (New York, Boston, LA etc have prices
that are outrageous).

Having said all that, you might also want to look into Anchorage Alaska.  My
family all lives there (I went to high school there).  Alaska is beautiful, 
and it is a fishermans paradise!  Anchorage is the big city and has about
300,000 people (best guess).  There are many open spaces and the entire 
state only has about 500,000 people.  Anchorage has a University, and
all the things typically found in a bigger city.  The cost of living is
a little higher, but people usually make more money.  They don't have any
sales tax in Anchorage and the state has no income tax (unless that's changed)
and every year they send all of their residents a check for upto $1000 
(Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend Check).  My parents really love it there!

Oh, as far a gardening, we have a little garden in our back yard and we
grow tomotoes, squash, carrots etc.  Denver has a little longer growing season.
Alaska grows world size produce because of the long hours of sunlight in
the summer months.  Their growing season is short, but I have seen pictures
of watermelon sized cabage!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might want to investigate Ottawa.  I am not sure what the job 
situation is like, but it's the seat of the federal government so
it has teh National Research Council and things like that, as well
as a couple of universities.

Ottawa is small and quiet, and a very nice place to bring up kids.
It's safe even by Canadian standards.  It's not very exciting,
though.  For nightlife you go across the river to Hull, Quebec.
Montreal is about 1 1/2 hours away by car, Toronto about 5.  It has
museums and things like that (again because of the feds), and it's 
arguably the most bilingual city in Canada (same reason).  It's on
the Ottawa river; I don't know if it has trout, but I know there's 
lots of fishing in northern Ontario, which is pretty accessible 
from Ottawa, at least for a weekend trip.

Montreal is nice too (that's where I grew up).  More cosmopolitan,
bigger, not quite as safe, but more interesting.  Housing used to
be very cheap compared to American cities of the same size, although
I think it's started to rise recently.  The real estate market
fluctuates a lot based on the political climate with respect to
Quebec separatism.  Knowing French is not necessary, but it helps
a lot.  If you send your children to school they may be required
to attend French-language schools, depending on how you were educated;
if they don't know French aready, they'd be put into transitional
classes at first.  Montreal may be a hard place to find a job because
the Quebec government is cutting back on funding of education and 
research.  Lots of opportunites to sing; probably not much trout
fishing.

A couple of things about Canada in general:  On the
downside, they will only hire non-Canadians if they can't find a
suitable Canadian, but on the upside, if they want you they will
write the job description so taht you are the only qualified
applicant!  Health care is government-run, with the attendant
problems and/or advantages depending on your perspective.  Canadian
taxes tend to be higher than US ones, because of the higher level
of gevernment services.

In the US, I recommend Buffalo (where I live now).  It has a research
university with a large medical school, and one of the best cancer
research centers in the US.  Real estate is extremely affordable
(you can buy a nice single-family house for less than $100,000).  It
has a friendly small-town flavor even though it has over a million
people.  It's on Lake Erie, at the mouth of the Niagara River (just
south of Niagara Falls).  A friend of mine is a fly fisherman, so I 
guess there is trout fishing.  Lots of nice state parks for camping
and hiking are within a few hours' drive, it's got more cultural
amenities than I had expected (plays, symphony, opera, choirs), and
I am told some of the school districts are very good.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seattle is nice, but much larger than Portland.  Size means Seattle has the
cultural edge, but it also means many, many more people.  I have only been
there a couple of times, so I can't criticize the place much.  Lots of 
people really love living there.  Since it is bigger, you may have better
luck finding work there.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the US, I'd rule out both coasts as they are expensive and usually
entail long commutes.  One of the most family oriented places I've
lived is Columbus, Ohio, right in the middle of the heartland.
Very family oriented.  Although the urban area has a large
population (over 1 million) still feels like a small town.
Large Univeristy there.  Good schools.  Fantastic parks.
Great zoo.  Relatively low crime situation.  Don't know what the 
job situation would be like for you there.

We are in Central Texas now.  This is a liberal island in the middle
of a very conservative state.  Suburban schools good.  Overall crime
rate is low, but there have been some very shocking incidents of
apparently random crime lately.  Climate is very sunny, but HOT
in the summer.  People here tend to be ourdoorsy types.
Excellent live music here, if you are into that.

The Universtiy of Texas is centered here, very large school.
Good repuation, but one of the least expensive schools around
nowadays.  The University owns a huge amount of oil-rich land,
and this helps subsidize education.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wanted to tell you
some things about Portland. I think it is a very kid-
oriented place to live. There are lots of activites
in the community that are specifically for children.
I don't have any kids (yet) but have looked into
this some as part of my decision making process. I
find Portland to be very liveable. There is a diverse
population, a nice downtown, reasonable arts scene. The
cost of living is quite reasonable compared to CA, where
I am from. As far as medical stuff goes there is a huge 
University hospital (Oregon Health Sciences University)
that may be doing things your husband is interested in. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
As a native Oregonian and resident of Portland, I am pleased to hear your
inlaws were favoribly impressed with Portland.

It sounds like you both would be able to get work a Oregon Health Sciences
University, which has become a well-funded institution (Federal Funds).

I cannot *promise* on a lot of your other requests, but:
We have an excellent climate, which I'm told is similar in many ways to New
Zealand's.  Portland still has good schools; they could be better but they
are certainly not the worst in the US.  One measure of concern is Measure 5,
which has forced a progresssive cap on property taxes and forces the state to
make up the lost funding for schools.  The state is currently scrambling for
means to make up the difference.

Homes in Portland are very affordable, with the median home in the $70-90,000
range.  Gardening here is excellent, Portland known as the Rose City.  Fishing,
skiing, and all manner of other outdoor sports are available close by.
Portland (the suburb of Beaverton, actually) is the world headquarters for
Nike, so we have lots of runners.

There is excellent hiking, backpacking and camping in the Columbia Gorge
and the Cascade Mountains.  The Oregon Coast is about 1 1/2 hour drive to the
west.

Child care, as elsewhere in the US, is a hit-or-miss proposistion.  There is
everything from daycare chains to private individuals doing child care in
their homes.  I'm am not familiar with the exact level of State regulation.
(My wife is a stay-at-home mom).  We do have a neighbor who does child care
in her home.  She has a state license and has certain limits on total number
of children she can take in and home many may be infants.

Other places in Oregon would be Corvallis (Oregon State University) or
Eugene (U of O, "running capital" of the US).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
You should consider Boston or at least somewhere in New England.
I've listed my reasons under your various interests.

Boston has both a large computing and biological community.  There are
many biochem and computer companies and lots of universities.

Gardening and outside activities can be limited by our winters but
the Boston area is relatively mild in comparision with anyplace in
the American West and Midwest.  But within two hours drive we have
mountains and ocean.  There aren't many places with that combination.

Boston has a very large medical area, lots of work.  Also, we have lots
of amateur music.  Many of the communities have orchestras and choirs
and the professional music scene is tops.  The universities also
contribute in this area.  (I play violin in a local orchestra.)

As mentioned above, lots of music, swimming on the cape and various ponds,
outside sports are limited by the winter.

You can find that here, although housing can be expensive close to the city.

Not wanting to commute means working at home.  You need to decide how
you want to commute (foot, bike, train, car) and for how long.  This
then decides where you live.  If you want to live in a suburban or
rural environment with short commutes to technical jobs then you either
make lots of money or you don't live near your job.  Or you chose to
work in a university environment and trade off income for life style.
There are lots of beautiful places to live and work near Amherst, home
of U.Mass, or Hannover N.H., home of Dartmouth.  Also, there are a lot
of smaller New England cities, such as Worcester, which have many of
the Boston spin off industries but offers closer commutes between the
suburban lifestyle and the urban job.  The tradeoff here is everything
is smaller: fewer cultural opportunities, job opportunities,...

America is violent in comparision with NZ or Western Europe.  American
cities are violent, they don't have to be large.  If you come to live
in the states then you must learn how to deal with the violence.  It's
an American thing, not a city thing.

I have lived in various places in Europe and the USA and like Boston
best.If  I couldn't
live here I would consider living in Austin, TX, Seattle WA or Raleigh
NC.  Forget California.  Not enough water, too many people, and not
enough land.  I also really like the American West but the weather can
be a little rugged and jobs scarce.  Low populations mean low cultural
opportunities but finding a university town can compensate.  I've been
to Bozeman, Montana.  Montana is a beautiful, sparsely populated state.
Bozeman is a university town.  Montana/Wyoming are the trout fishing
capitols of the world.  But YOW, brutal long winters.

Every place has it pluses and minuses.  My in-laws visited NZ and
really liked it but it too has its flaws - like lack of jobs.  
If you do
move, consider Boston.  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My favorite is Pennsylvania, away from the cities. there are many small
college towns (some with large colleges) tucked away in the mountains,
(er pimples compared to the rockies) with alot of community activities.
The best way to get started in these communities are through churches.
Write to the chambers of commerce in any town you may consider and ask
about local crime rates, industry, etc. If you are looking for research
positions try Penn State University, State College, Pennsylvania.
Great fishing, hunting, picknicking and views!

I live in Maryland, in the mountains and commute about 30 minutes each way,
can't have everything <sigh>.

 I love portland. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Considering your occupations, Atlanta Georgia might be a good place
to look since they have the Centers for Disease Control there.  But it
is a big city and traffic can be terrible if you live on one side of town
and work on the other.  But if you live reasonably close it can be only
a 15-20 minute commute.  Like other cities, you'll find crime in the worse
parts of town.  I used to live there and my family still does and I enjoyed
it for the short winters and lots of things to do.  Housing costs are pretty
cheap too.  You can be up in the mountains or to the Atlantic coast in
a couple of hours.
	A lot of technology companies have located in the Raleigh-Durham area
of North Carolina.  The are medium to small size cities (or were when I
last visited a couple of years ago).  Its a pretty area with a lot of open
land.  You are inland quite a bit and into the rolling hills before the
Applachain (sp?) mountain chain.  I've been told that it's a great place
to raise a family but not good for single people.  Supposedly tho, there
are a lot of retirees moving into North Carolina.  I guess they couldn't
take the Florida heat.  There are three universities in the region so I
think the population has a higher degree of education.  This is also why
a lot of companies have located there.  Housing costs are supposed to
be pretty cheap.  You have longer winters here than Atlanta but still not
to bad and you aren't close enough to the coast to get the awful humidity
of the Charleston area.  But you are close enough to the mountains and the
ocean to be able to go to both.  This is a big area for high-tech companies
but I don't know about your professions.  Since they are fairly small they
have less crime but the universities attract a lot of cultural events.
	Other places that I have heard talked about but haven't really visited
are Seattle, Washington and Portland, Oregon.  Seattle is a pretty place and
a lot of people from California are moving there. (I'm not sure if that is
a plus tho!)  I know that Microsoft and Boeing are there but I don't know
what other types of industries.  Portland is also supposed to be a pretty
place with expanding industries.  I think that these areas have moderate
climates and good outdoor activities like trout fishing, hiking, camping, etc.
In general, the north west and the mid to north east would be the best
areas for fishing.
	You might also try finding out what universities have good departments
in your areas of expertice.  In general, university towns are small but
with a lot of activities and low crime.  I don't really know anything about
your fields to say where that would be.
	There are a couple of places that I would personally avoid.  California
in general is too expensive, is having problems with high unemployment due
to cuts in government defense spending, has terrible traffic, and the
southern part has too many people for the water it has.  People are starting
to leave due to a lot of problems that I don't think are going to be fixed
in the near future.  I'd also avoid New York City but have been pretty happy
with the rest of the state from a transplanted southerners point of view.
(I live about 150 miles north of NY City.)  In general, the coasts have a 
more moderate temperature due to the oceans.  The midwest seems to be not
in the summer and brutally cold in the winter.  A lot of people also like
the Arizona/New Mexico area for skiing in the mountains and warm weather
in the valleys.  I'd also avoid the Boston area.  Too many people and
too much traffic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I live in Middleton, a suburb of Madison. Madison is TOO BIG,
too expensive, and too 'politically correct'.  I love Middleton, though.
You might consider Peoria Illinois, which has a USDA biochemistry
research lab, is on a river, etc. (I grew up there).
Wisconsin and Iowa have the best students (by national tests)
but Wisconsisn has awful taxes.
Iowa has a reputation for being a nice (b oring) place to raise a family.
I can answer specific questions about Madison WI, Sioux City Iowa,
or Peoria Ill if that helps.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Utah offers all of the above!  An average new home (say 4 bedroom)
will run you about $65,000 - $75,000.  There are tons of good schools
(public as well as private).  This is garden city too!

You are not dreaming - you just havent seen Utah, yet. Fortune
magazine ranked the Utah area (Provo/Orem to be specific) and the #1
place in the USA to live!  And, contrary to what everyone has heard,
there is a huge diversity of religions and things to do here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I live in Palo Alto, California, USA - it's about 40 miles
south of San Francisco and I think it's great.  

Expensive, though.  But then there's a reason for that - a lot
of other people think it's great too.

It has almost everything you're looking for, but compared to
NZ (I suspect) it's not nearly as rural.  It's not big city,
though, and I have lived near Los Angeles, so I know what I'm
talking about. 

Also, there are jobs here for people like yourself and your
husband (though fewer now than many years ago - like NZ there's
a recession (depression?) going on here too).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allow me to put in my plug for Lincoln, Nebraska, where I live and work
at the University of Nebraska - Lincoln.  Lincoln is a small city, as
in less than 200,000, and it's the capital of the state.  Consequently,
it has the University, and is the seat of the government.

What is so good about living here, in my opinion, is that you have all
the great stuff about metropolitan areas: Cultural events, commercial
variety, entertainment, parks, libraries, recreation, etc... but NOT 
the negatives often found in urban areas: pollution, traffic, crime,
drugs, etc.  A few months back my wife and I walked down the Centennial
Mall to the Capitol building (a unique architectural landmark) at about
11 at night on a weekend, and felt perfectly safe.  

Let me add that during junior high, I accompanied my family on a lecture/
workshop tour of the entire United States of America, missing only Maine,
Alaska and Hawaii.  I've been around, I've seen this country, and I like
it here.  I like this little gem of a city, and I love the tempestuous and
unpredictable Nebraska weather.  I like the people, who I find far more
open to the new and innovative than the cultural illuminati of the 
East and West coast.  

So there's my plug.  I've found similar places in the Midwest USA: Wichita
Kansas, Ames Iowa, etc.  Don't let folks tell you these spots are 
"Podunk, USA", the intellectual and cultural backwaters of the nation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I read your post, I kept thinking that you would like Portland
Oregon.  Then I saw that you mentioned it at the end of your post.
I grew up across the bay from San Francisco, Calif., so I was used
to living around a large city.  I moved to Portland in 1977.  
Portland has the amenities of a larger city (such as symphony, 
universities, museums, cultural things) but has not yet suffered
from many of the drawbacks.  The actual downtown area is quite
clean compared with most cities.  I do things downtown at night
and do not feel very uncomfortable there alone at night (although
I wouldn't be so stupid as to do a lot of walking around down
there late at night - but it is okay walking to/from parking when
dining or going to a concert or play).  My house is just west of
the city - it takes me about 10 minutes to get downtown.  I live
in a quiet neighborhood that is extremely safe.  I will run errands
at times without locking the house (but please don't broadcast this
as the situation could change if people realized it).  I have a 1/3
acre lot with fruit trees, large lawn areas, roses, rhododendrons,
etc.  During the winter, it takes me 1 - 1 1/2 hrs. to get to where
I can cross-country ski - there are *lots* of trails (mostly ungroomed).
The coast is about 1 1/2 hrs. in the other direction.  There have been
times when I have gotten up early Saturday morning and driven to the
coast with my dogs so they can run in the sand before people start
arriving.  I think the schools are rated pretty well.  As far as
housing goes, I was able to buy a house 1 yr. out of college whereas
I don't know if I could ever have afforded a house if I had stayed
in California.  You could get a nice house here for $100,000 or you
could get a *really* nice house for $200,000 (the types the Californians
buy when they move up here - 4000 sq. ft. with office, exercise room,
3 car garage, etc.).  I have a small 2 bedroom house that is worth
maybe $78,000.
As far as employment: the Oregon Health Sciences University (OHSU) is
located in SW Portland - there are a hospital, medical school, dental
school and children's hospital up there (on the hill).  There is also
the Veteran's hospital.  Large hospitals in the area: St. Vincent's,
Good Samaritan, Emanual, Providence.  There is also a research university
about 10-15 miles west of the city: Oregon Graduate Institute of Science
and Technology (I think - they changed the name recently).  I am not sure
what biochemical things they have going on there though.
Universities around are: Portland State University, University of Portland,
Lewis and Clark College, Reed College plus the community college campuses.
Every June there is a Rose Festival here - lots of activities including
parades (floats made with roses), fun center, competitive and fun runs, 
etc.  My company has an annual rose competition.  There are rose gardens
located in Washington Park just above the city (real ones where they
create new hybrids, etc., with everything labelled for you).  There are
also many small parks with their own smaller rose gardens.
Activities: lots of soccer and sports for children (boys and girls).
Oregon Museum of Science and Industry has classes for children.  Recreation
center has lots of classes (art, gymnastics, music, special interest).
My son, only 2 1/2 yrs. old, has been to kindergym and has been going to
swimming class (just fun for that age) since last January.  During the
summer, the rec department schedules lots of one day field trips for
kids.  Activities are often split up according to age groups.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've spent time in Madison, Portland and LA.
Both Madison and Portland are nice.  If you are
raising children and hate commutes, then LA is
NOT place to be. 

Portland (twice as big as Madison)
has more job opportunities which might involve a short commute.
My impression is that although Portland is very nice now, it
is growing quickly.  Certainly Portland is growing quicker 
than Madison. A recent radio report said that several Japanese companies 
had recently "discovered" that
Portland was a closer shipping destination to the US than LA and
they were changing their business accordingly.  The state of
Oregon has launched a don't come to Oregon campaign, complete
with "Don't Californicate Oregon" bumperstickers and negative
greeting cards to send to one's out of state friends.  It's
too early to tell whether this will work or not. Certainly it is no
secret that Portland is a nice place.

Madison is home to the state capital (closer to possible funding source
for you government researchers) and to  the University of Wisconsin, 
a large world class university which has no equal in Oregon.   
The  soil is fertile, the city is clean, the population is well educated 
and the schools and parks are well funded (those of us in Illinois often
take advantage of the state park system as well as Wisconsin's
two national forests).  Home prices in the Midwest are also more reasonable
than on either coast.  Many people don't like Wisconsin because
of the winter.  (It would not be unusual to have several consecutive
days of  -16 degrees Centigrade in the winter).   
Personally, I look at winter as a chance to get out my cross country skis!  
Winter is not a big deal if one dresses appropriately.
If you can find work in Madison, it would be a great place to live!

You might want to get a copy of the latest _Places Rated Almanac_
by Rand McNally.  It rates 325 US metro areas in seven or eight different
categories including: economic opportunities, education, cost of housing,
 health care, crime, recreation  and entertainment, and access 
to transportation.   An aggregate ranking
is made with all of these categories ranked as equals which, of course,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been living in Charlottesville Virginia USA for 6 years.  It comes
pretty close to meeting the criteria you have listed.  It's beautiful -
in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains.  The weather supports all
four seasons, but not too extreme.  We rarely get significant snowfall, just
enough to enjoy and play in.  Weatherwise the worse part is the hot and
humid summers.  Spring and fall are magnificent.  "Outdoors people" abound.

There are about 120,000 people in the area.  It is a small city, but has
an airport of its own.  Washington is 2 hours north, Richmond (capitol of
Virginia) is 1 hour east.  We go to one of these places for big-city
things like serious shopping, special entertainment, pro sports, international
flights, etc.  We moved here from "Silicon Valley" - crowded, polluted, high
prices, lots of crime.  Charlottesville has none (well, very little) of that.
It's a great place to raise kids.  I have no personal experience with the 
schools yet (Robert 3, Alex 6 mo) but generally hear pretty good things about 
them.

Your best bet for work would be the university here - the University of
Virginia.  I don't know much about it, though.  I'm told there are research
labs in town also.  In general it's a tough time to get a new job anywhere.