Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:11:37 EST
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel and the diaspora
 <1992Nov18.205954.26329@u.washington.edu>
 <92323.1846492893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
 <1992Nov19.021531.17212@u.washington.edu>

In article <1992Nov19.021531.17212@u.washington.edu>,
nobby@milton.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov) says:
>
>In article <92323.1846492893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> andy
><2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>In article <1992Nov18.205954.26329@u.washington.edu>,
>>nobby@milton.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov) says:
>>>
>
>[... stuff deleted ...]
>
>>>1990-91. The overwhelming majority of Soviet Jews bound for Israel
>>>arrived there via Bucharest and - to a lesser extent - Warsaw,
>>
>>but no longer Vienna, the Romanian government provided no alternative
>>destination for Russian Jews save Israel, they were not permitted
>>to go to the West from Romania, Warsaw I dont know, but not Romania
>>
>>>Nicosia, et cetera. I agree that these routes were designed with an
>>>implicit goal to prevent the emigrants from defecting in Vienna.
>>>However, if one was dead set on going to America or elsewhere he
>>>still could go to Vienna absolutely unhindered by Mossad agents and
>>>then proceed to Ladispoli. This business was fully functional up
>>>to late 1989 / early 1990 when INS wound up its facilites in Rome
>>>and gradually transferred them to Moscow.
>>>
>>>Perhaps Israel felt uneasy about it. It's quite possible and I tend
>>>to agree that this might be the case. But the talk about "coercion"
>>>and "pressure" is totally inappropriate. IMO, there is a difference
>>>between mild Zionist propaganda and actual use of force to make
>>>people move to Israel.
>>
>>You concede though that the routes were designed with the explicit goal of
>>preventing Jews from going elsewhere (defecting, your word, is an interesting
>>choice of phrase) certainly this is somewhat coercive. I am not saying Israel
>>is kidnapping Jews, forcing them to go to Israel against their will (well,
>not
>>if you don't count Mordechai Vannunu, but that's a different story:) rather
>>that Israel is being rather patronising and big brotherly in trying to close
>>other options to Jews, both by lobbying the US to tighten quota restrictions
>>and by designing routes which make it difficult for Jews to go anywhere but
>>Israel. You have not commented on the first point but you have essentially
>>conceded the second
>>--andy
>>
>
>You missed my point. If you *wanted* to go to Israel you went to
>Bucharest. If you did *not* want to then you could leave for
>Vienna -> Italy -> ... It was one's personal choice which had
>nothing to do whatsoever with Israeli policy in this regard.
>People who were leaving for Romania were aware of their final
>destination. If it's me who decides where to go then there can
>be no talk about coercion, right?
>
>As far as alleged Israeli pressure on the U.S. is concerned
>I find the discussion pointless. I'll claim that there was no
>such a thing, you'll respond that yes, Israeli lobby did
>cause tightening of the U.S. immigration quotas and nobody
>will be able to sustain his argument due to the lack of
>evidence. So let's restrict our discussion to the realm of
>facts which are readily available and convincingly show
>that nobody has been ever forced to relocate to Israel against
>his/her will. I find your appeal to the case of Mordechai Vanunu
>lame. IMO, Mr. Vanunu is a criminal and should be treated as

The Vannunu comment is a throwaway comment, a joke. The controversy
is not that Israel put him on trial but that instead of extradicting him
they violated international law by luring him to Italy and abducting him.
That is another argument however. When in Toronto I will look for the
articles on the lobbying to restrict quotas on Russian Jews, I think
it can be proven.

>such. If you disagree it's O.K. because, frankly speaking, I
>couldn't care less about fugitive nuclear scientists. The problem
>in question is Jewish emigration from the xSU and I would like
>to reiterate that your accusations and claims against Israel
>do not concur with the reality.
>
>nobby@u.washington.edu