HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
Subject: Re: Campus Fascists
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:27:43 GMT

In <1992Sep9.135222.202729@uctvax.uct.ac.za> msncra01@uctvax.uct.ac.za (Craig Mason0--Jones) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.131733.202726@uctvax.uct.ac.za>,
>wnljam01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>> I don't believe there has ever been freedom of speech at certain university's
>> in S.A. - certainly not at U.C.T or Wits!  Last week SASCO made a mega-noise
>> because of an INKATHA speaker being invited onto the campus - they suggested
>> the trashing of the meeting!  Interesting parley for "freedom of speech"
>> advocates.  I wonder if the ANC and their puppets know what those words mean?!

>But of course you overlook SASCO's first objection - that INKATHA has no idea
>what freedom of speech means. After all, SASCO is effectively banned on all
>KwaZulu campuses, is not allowed anywhere in KwaZulu. Don't try to whitewash
>Inkatha by criticising SASCO.

So we solve this problem by effectively banning Inkatha from speaking on
campuses where SASCO has a major role.

Swift move... but didn't somebody once say that two wrongs don't make a right?
Or doesn't that maxim apply in this case?

Roll on an ANC/SACP "government".  I can't wait to be told what to say,
do, and think. 
-- 
  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,soc.culture.filipino,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Subject: Re: [SOC] PETITION FOR LUYEN NGUYEN
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 05:03:44 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep13.160439.9763@jho.com> john@jho.com (John Ho) writes:
>godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY) writes:
>
>	Unfortunately the Asian Americans has been treated unfairly 
>by the US legal system.  As sad as I have to say, discrimination
>and prejudice do and wildly exist and exhibit.  Racial discrimination
>is not only between black and white; but it is between people of 
>different colors.  Asian Americans needs to fight for what is taken 
>for granted by most Americans - a fair legal system.  It was only ten years 
>ago that a Chinese American Vincent Chan was killed in Detroit 
>after mistaken as a Japanese by two unemployed auto workers, a father
>and his step-son, and the criminals were able to walk out the court room 
>with a four-years probation and $3000 fine each; only public outcry has 
>forced federal action against the father and son later.  

That carefully crafted myth once again?  Why should the killers have
been condemned to a longer sentence because the victim happened to
be Asian?  (I doubt that your view of what the justice system is all
about has much relationship with what it really is supposed to be. In
particular, it's *not* about revenge...)

If you keep crying wolf each time it serves your interest, your
credibility will have been destroyed the day the wolf comes.

Serious accusations like yours won't go very far without proof,
which you won't find because the sentence was exactly what it would
have been had the victim been white.  (And note that if you accuse,
*you* got the burden of proving that what not the case.)

For god's sake, the Judiciary is the one piece of the system that has
the best record.  It's the Judiciary (the Supreme Court) that initiated
desegregation in America, at a time when many people weren't quite
ready for it.  Aren't you insulting Thurgood Marshall?

If anything, agitation, with either revenge or the interests of one
particular tribe as a goal, will result in a society that will be
more race-conscious, kind of "apartheid by mutual consent" (I.e., "it's
OK to be a second-class citizen, at least I am not third or fourth
class"...  Or more crudely, a society where it's normal that "whites
marry whites, Chinese marry Chinese, Korean, Korean, Mexican, Mexican, etc...,
and dogs, dogs..."  Or still, welcome to Yugoslavia...)  Is that what
you want, or rather, some kind of a color-blind society where every
citizen is equal and race is no bigger an issue than say eye color
among white people today?

Luc B

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: Adam Lawrence Salter <adam@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: If Civil War would there be arms supplied?
Reply-To: Adam Lawrence Salter <adam@zooid.guild.org>
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:58:39 GMT



  Greetings. THis is my first posting here and I know it will sound naive so
don't flame me.

  Is civil war possible or probable in South Africa?

  In the case of a civil war, would weapons be supplied to the ANC and the
government and the Inkatha and would it be done legally and who would supply
these weapons?

  What would the U.N. and U.S. and other countries do?

  I am of course only looking for opinions and not definite answers.

                                                              Thank-you,
                                                            Adam Salter
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,apc.reg.safrica,sanet.talk.politics
From: ccdw@kudu.ru.ac.za (Dave Wilson)
Subject: Re: Bantustans (was Re: Campus Fascists)
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:40:27 GMT

In <1992Sep10.154229.2872@hippo.ru.ac.za> ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod) writes:

>In <ccdw.716121026@kudu> ccdw@kudu.ru.ac.za (Dave Wilson) writes:

>>This also applies to all the criticism that
>>has been heaped on the ANC since the events of the last few days in
>>Ciskei - the fact is Ciskei was set up and is ruled by a minority
>>government inspired dictator.  Let's put our energies into righting that
>>wrong.

>The fact is that Transkei and Venda were set up and are ruled by minority
>government inspired dictators as well.  The difference is that their
>dictators are big chums with the ANC so there isn't this overwhelming
>desire to use mass action to topple their particular "governments". 
 
Depends what you mean by "chums" - the difference is that ANC activity
is permitted in their respective territories by Transkei and Venda,
whereas they are "outlawed" in Ciskei.

--
Dave Wilson                               Computing Centre  
ccdw@kudu.ru.ac.za                        Rhodes University
27-461-22023                              Grahamstown, South Africa
From: Wally.Walters@p0.f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Wally Walters)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: F*** You All
Date: 12 Sep 92 23:43:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: catpe.2222.2AB378DC
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7101/20.0 - Unisa Editorial, Pretoria


 MH> it.  I HATE to see 50 responses to one stupid, obviously (at least
 MH> partly) faked message.  And I'm sure the owners of  systems across the
 MH> net feel the same.   --MJH

So why didn't some nearby Sysop press <Del> (or whatever Sysops do) with
the alacrity they bitch about taglines?



--  
INTERNET: Wally.Walters@p0.f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
via:  THE CATALYST BBS in Port Elizabeth, South Africa.
       (catpe.alt.za)   +27-41-34-1122 HST or +27-41-34-2859, V32bis & HST.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.african:4715 soc.culture.filipino:3285 soc.culture.taiwan:13208 soc.culture.hongkong:10688 soc.culture.indian:30966 soc.culture.vietnamese:13474
From: poam@giraffe.ru.ac.za (AK MARQUARD)
Subject: Re: Bantustans (was Re: Campus Fascists)
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:59:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.154229.2872@hippo.ru.ac.za> ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod) writes:
>From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
>Subject: Bantustans (was Re: Campus Fascists)
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:42:29 GMT
>In <ccdw.716121026@kudu> ccdw@kudu.ru.ac.za (Dave Wilson) writes:
>
>>This also applies to all the criticism that
>>has been heaped on the ANC since the events of the last few days in
>>Ciskei - the fact is Ciskei was set up and is ruled by a minority
>>government inspired dictator.  Let's put our energies into righting that
>>wrong.
>
>The fact is that Transkei and Venda were set up and are ruled by minority
>government inspired dictators as well.  The difference is that their
>dictators are big chums with the ANC so there isn't this overwhelming
>desire to use mass action to topple their particular "governments". 
>
>Is anybody going to right those wrongs?  Doubt it.  And until somebody in
>the ANC starts making noises about Transkei and Venda, I'll have to take
>their abhorrence of Bantustans with a pinch of salt and a huge dose of
>cynicism.
>
>-- 
>  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
>  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
>  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E

Just a few facts: the ANC have repeatedly stated their opposition to ALL 
bantustans, no matter who they are aligned with - however due to the fact 
that negotiations are underway for an interim gov't and that this is a 
complicated constitutional issue, the actual issue of incorporation or 
abolishment of the homelands is not at stake at the moment. What the ANC's 
actual goals are in wanting challenge the likes of Gqoza and Mangope are, as 
clearly stated in the press, repeatedly, their opposition to human rights 
abuses being committed daily by these regimes, as well as the fact that the 
ANC is banned in these places. There are well-documented and frequent cases 
of human rights abuses by the Ciskei and Bophututswana security forces - 
nothing similar is hapenning in Venda/Transkei to my knowledge.
The gathering of 70 000 people outside Bisho was not an ANC propoganda 
exercise - for anyone there the level of anger against Gqosa and his regime 
was very clear, as was the large number of white troops (particularly at 
command level) in his defence force. Perhaps from a tactical point of view 
the march was a mistake (anyone here could have predicted something of the 
sort - note, not "violence", as in a free-for-all amongst large groups of 
people, but a massacre coldly carried out by trained soldiers armed with 
automatic rifles.
It's all very well having a degree of cynicism about the ANC's motives, but 
this does not take into account either the mass support for the ANC in the 
Ciskei, and the real and continued suffering of ordinary people in the 
Ciskei.

Andrew Marquard, Political Studies Dep't Rhodes University
From: mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Date: 8 Sep 92 14:02:46 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

gds@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (Riel Smit) writes:
> mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>>I agree with the person who described Die Stem as a tribal
>>anthem, not just in its wording, which you may judge for
>>yourselves, but also (through its exclusive use) what it
>>represents.  
> 
> So allow me some stirring.. :-)
> I don't think it's wording supports much of the tribal anthem thing.
> If one disregards the baggage that comes with Die Stem ("the voice", for
> those who don't understand Afrikaans) and only look at the words,
> especially the official translation, it is not at all "exclusive"
> -- or am I totally mistaken?  OK, one also have to ignore its christian
> nature, but then Nkosi sikelele is even more christian.
> 
> The only "exclusive" part in Die Stem is in verse 1:
> 
>>     From our plains where creaking wagons cut their trails
>>          into the earth - 
> 
> but one could argue that not only whites (or afrikaners) used creaking
> wagons in the past (or even still today).

Since you didn't pick it up - this is a reference to the Great Trek.
You know the one - where afrikaans speaking white people left the Cape
after slavery was abolished by the British colonial power, and went off
to sieze land from the indiginous people in the "binneland" (interior).
 
> The Afrikaans version is more "exclusive", but only in two places: the
> one mentioned above and then the last line of the second verse
> 
>>     Waar en trou as Afrikaners - kinders van Suid-Afrika.
>       Tried and true as Afrikaners - children of South Africa

Is it now "not 'exclusive' at all" or is it "more 'exclusive', but only 
in two places"?  It really can't be both you know!
 
> [Which gives me an idea - I'll translate the Afrikaans version more directly
> into English and post it tomorrow, unless I get a flood of NO! PLEASE
> DON'Ts :-)]

If it suits you, I don't mind - you may even "uncover" more exclusivity:-)

> And before I get hate mail: no, I don't care if we get another anthem, as
> long as it is a nice one.  Nkosi would do, just a pity Zimbabwe already
> took the tune (and Malawi's anthem also sounds like it - words are 
> similar too).
From: laing@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Peter Laing)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: South African Broadcasting Corporation - propaganda continues
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:11:08 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <frank2.42@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za>, frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N) writes:
> The only television news service in South Africa, the state-owned SABC, is 
> still being abused as a propaganda device by the government.
> 
> [.....]
 
> On the main evening news broadcast on the day of the Bisho massacre, very 
> little informative footage of the actual incident was shown. Scenes of the 
> march towards the "border", a crowd climbing a fence, running or huddled 
> people during the firing and bloodied bodies after the shooting were shown. 
> The Star, one of South Africa's largest daily newspapers, observed that 
> overseas networks (I'm not sure which) gave their veiwers a far more 
> complete impression of the incident.
>
  You can be damn sure that CNN wasn't one of them!
 
> In the same broadcast, de Klerk, Botha (Mister of Foreign Affairs) and 
> Kriel (Minister of Law and Order) were all given air time to expound the 
> government's condemnation of the ANC for the event. In contrast, only one 
> ANC official (Tshwete) was shown making a statement - and then only giving 
> comment on a sit-in in Bisho and not the massacre. It is common for the SABC 

  .......

  Peter Laing
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst)
Subject: Re: Bisho Massacre
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 15:25:50 GMT

Scenario 1 (hypothetical of course)
Ciskei magistrate issues an order saying that the ANC can't
march to Bisho. ANC does, 28 of its supporters killed.
Who should be blamed? Answer -- ANC

Scenario 2 (hypthetical of course)
UCT SASCO decides that Inkatha can't have a meeting on campus.
IFP do, and SASCO breaks it up.
Who should be blamed? Answer -- ANC

Scenario 3 (hypothetical of course)
UCT admin decide that an IFP meeting on campus may lead to violence
and issued order saying they can't (but they can meet on Devil's
Peak). IFP starts meeting on Devil's Peak but a group of them decide
to march on the Students' Union. Violence ensues.
Who should be blamed? Answer -- ANC

Is this an adequate abstraction of the arguments we've been having?

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
Subject: Re: A question for ANC supporters (re: Bisho)
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:35:54 GMT

In <ccdw.716480939@kudu> ccdw@kudu.ru.ac.za (Dave Wilson) writes:

>So, are you saying that the marchers should have backed down and
>cancelled the march (assuming that would have been possible, given the
>tempers of the preceding weeks)?  As someone said in another message,
>the march would probably have gone ahead anyway, with or without ANC
>support.  Far better to have at least some control over the proceedings
>by crowd marshalls, etc.       

That's exactly what I'm saying.  There's more than one way to skin a
cat.

OK, lets get hypothetical.  The ANC intends marching on Ulundi in the
near future in a replay of what they wanted to do in Ciskei, namely
"topple a petty dictator", and, quite possibly, establish an "interim
administration".

Should they back down and cancel the march, given Buthelezi's promise to
turn such a march into the beginnings of a civil war?  Or do you expect
that Buthelezi intends fighting his civil war with rubber bullets and
teargas?

Is the ANC going to gamble on this one?  And, if they do, what would
you say about their motives?  I'd say that someone has cold bloodedly
and cynically calculated that the ANC needs martyrs to be slaughtered
in the full glare of international publicity so that they can have the
excuse for starting a full scale insurrection to seize power in this
country without the inconvenience of "democratic" negotiations.  Call
me paranoid.

-- 
  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: tonyp@ucthpx.uct.ac.za (Tony Putman)
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 07:46:45 GMT
Organization: Dept of Elec Eng, UCT

laing@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Peter Laing) writes:

>  Over plains where creaking wagons, cut their trails into the earth, 
>  ---------
   Calls the spirit of our country, of the land that gave us birth.

>  At thy call we shall not faulter, firm and steadfast we shall stand
>  At thy will to live or perish, for our land South Africa.
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                  for South Africa, dear land. (gotta rhyme :-)

>  Many years ago I was a Boy Scout and we had to memorise the 
>  National Anthem in both languages.

Likewise.

>> "Die stem" has three more verses, but I don't think I can remember them all. 
>> There is also an official English translation in verse, but it's kitsch and 
>> banal and I don't know it, nor do I want to.
> 
>  I suppose that's the one I've just written above?!?

I guess so :-)

-- 
Tony Putman, Elec Eng, UCT : "There is no monopoly of common sense
  tonyp@ucthpx.uct.ac.za   :  On either side of the political fence."
-----------------------------------------------------------  Sting  -----
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,soc.culture.filipino,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese
From: godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY)
Subject: Re: [SOC] PETITION FOR LUYEN NGUYEN
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 18:43:00 GMT

In article <20279@drutx.ATT.COM>, nguyen@drutx.ATT.COM (Christopher Chu)    writes...
>Dear Netters,
> 
>During the last few days, I have been building a list of petitioners who
>will share a petition letter against the beating death of Mr. Nguyen Phan
>Nguyen. This petition is a follow-up of my original and individual protest
>letter that was sent to 28 of U.S. officials last week. If you feel that
>the petition that we plan to send should also go to other officials and
>agencies, please provide me with names and addresses and I will send the
>final version of the petition with a separate note to them.
> 

Whilst I'm sure your intentions are good, I don't understand the point in
this petition.  Presumably the guilty party(ies) will be punished under
US law - what possible difference would a petition make?  Do you believe
that they will not be prosecuted?  Maybe I've missed something

Laurence
From: govender@shannon.ee.wits.ac.za (Govender)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Exclusivity of "Die Stem"
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:28:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: shannon.govender.716110098
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of the Witwatersrand

the issue at hand (i.e. the fuss about the singing of the stem at ellis park)
does not lie with the literal meaning of the words, it is in the emotions
and sentiments they represent. for some the melody "tannenbaum" is a harm-
less christmas carol, to others it is a "red flag"

what is also important is that is an "afrikaans" song written by an
afrikaner for afrikaners at a time when feelings of afrikaner nationalism
were probably at a peak. was it not nietsche who wrote that translation
is not always recommended and that literature should be read in the language
it was written?

morgan govender
govender@shannon.ee.wits.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: heidi@ucthpx.uct.ac.za (Heidi de Wet)
Subject: Re: Bisho Massacre
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 11:30:49 GMT
Organization: Dept of Elec Eng, UCT

nicolson@odie.ee.wits.ac.za (James Nicolson) writes:
>Clearly everyone overestimated the CDF, Gqozo and his SA govt advisers. No 
>one expected that soldiers would be hiding in the grass waiting to ambush 
>the marchers.

Note that the Bisho road had been barricaded with razor wire by the 
CDF.  The existence of a hole in the stadium fence was well-known 
to all parties some time before the march, and it figured in the 
ANC's plans.  Was it likewise barricaded with razor wire?  No, it 
was guarded by a hidden unit instead.  Very telling.

-- 
--------- Heidi de Wet ---------- heidi@ucthpx.uct.ac.za ---------

For the finest galactic travel
                             Kippenhan Cruiseliners gets you there
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 12 Sep 92 11:39 PDT
Subject: Re: Somalia waste scandal - Greenpe
Nf-ID: #R:1992Sep12.113045.11688@news.cs.i:-757767793:cdp:1471700115:000:222
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Sep 12 11:39:00 1992


NOTE:  the information was sent by Francesco Martone of Greenpeace in
Italy.  He's on GreenNet.  I just forwarded his message to this conference.
It appeared in "reg.africa."  I've emailed him to ask about Progresso soup.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics
From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 09:42:49 GMT

In <1992Sep1.180723.22056@athena.mit.edu> femibyte@athena.mit.edu (Olufemi G Anthony) writes:

>(Sorry to all the more enlightened souls out there whose feelings were hurt
>my blanket statements. But I still wonder what white students at 
>all-white universities are taught regarding black people.)

You'll have to direct this query to soc.culture.europe - there aren't
(and haven't been for many years) any "all-white" universities in South
Africa.  And, for that matter, large numbers of previously "all-white"
government schools accept pupils of all races.  Similarly,
traditionally "all-black" universities and, to a lesser extent, schools,
also accept students of all races.

I don't deny that in the past there were "all-white" institutions, but,
with the notable exception of parliament, you'll have to look pretty
hard today to find them.  I believe (but don't have recent first hand
experience :-) that jails are also integrated. For what that's
worth...

-- 
  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E
From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 06 Sep 92 09:22 PDT
Subject: Re: About IPS Postings
Nf-ID: #R:1992Sep5.220843.24088@gagme.chi.:937549471:cdp:1471700102:000:134
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Sep  6 09:22:00 1992


The information is indispensable.  I don't understand how this works, tho.
Do you pay them a subscription fee and then upload for us?

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african