HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carole@rembrandt.Sun.COM (Carole Parker)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Controversial organizations? (Re: Advice from a hiring manager on resumes
Date: 29 Dec 1992 06:47:21 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: rembrandt
Keywords: Advice

In article <1992Dec10.170752.23595@bradley.bradley.edu> dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:
>carole@rembrandt.Sun.COM (Carole Parker) writes:
>
>>    Don't put anything non-essential or that can be discriminatory on your
>>    resume.  This includes:
>
>I keep hearing conflicting opinions on whether things like organizations
>and interests should be included on a resume.  I can understand the wisdom
>of not overdoing it (listing every single organization and hobby I've ever
>remotely experienced), but I don't know what might be judged as
>non-essential in a harmful way or discriminatory.
>
Organizations that do not indicate race or religion are acceptable for putting
on your resume.  If you have professional organizations that are job related,
that is better.  If you have held a position or participated on a committee in
this organization, you may want to note it down.

>For instance, on the last resume I drafted, the following were listed under
>'Organizations and Awards':
>	
>	Association for Computing Machinery
>	Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility

Both of these are good.

>	National Eagle Scout Association

Eeahh... Yes and no.  It could make you seem younger than you are, and some
people do have a bias against them.  However, some people are in favor of this
group.  Your call.

>	Mensa

Ditto.  Some people view Mensa as a snob organization, and others are
impressed by it.

>	National Merit Scholar, XX/XX (date).
>
After you've gotten your bachelors degree, I don't think this is as important.

>To me, these all are important indicators as to my overall being,
>professional and personal, and supplement my ~2 years of professional
>experience.  I'm interested in how these could be interpreted as
>controversial.  


I found myself. See? I'm right here! Until later--

Carole Parker
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: mgw@world.std.com (maryanne g wolf)
Subject: Re: The question of Experience
Keywords: college job entry cs sysadm
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:19:09 GMT

I would think that what you need if you have the expertise and no
degree is references or some other way to prove that you are as good
as you appear.  You also need to show that you can stick to something
long enough to finish it.  Consulting is good if you can get started.
Ditto contract work.  Volunteer work might even show what you can do.
Can you hook up with some professor and work as an unpaid research
assistant?  Can you articulate what you know well enough to make
contacts in a conference?  Enclosing 1-2 page code samples with your
letter might get attention, likewise publishing shareware, if you have
somewhere to develop it.  Some companies that advertise in the Sunday
Boston Globe ask for code samples.  If you don't mind serving in the
military, it is possible that a military recruiter could get you
something.  I would also suspect that companies requiring clearance or
drug-testing would have less competition from the college grads,
especially in states with many earthy-crunchy students, and if the
economy gets better.  There is also a group of Entrepreneurs connected
with MIT, and some of them might appreciate a person who can teach
himself.  MIT in general can cater to prodigies who learn too fast for
an ordinary program.  (I'm a Yale alum myself, which also has
geniuses, but not as much of the computer kind, which is why I think
MIT might be a better bet.  I spent most of my time at Yale in grad
student courses).

I've never been in your situation, so I'm only guessing.

Mary-Anne Wolf
mgw@world.std.com

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: kylee@eskimo.com (K.Y. Lee)
Subject: Address for Hyundai Informations Systems
Organization: >>> Eskimo North (206)-FOR-EVER <<<
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:37:02 GMT

Does anyone know whereabouts of Hyundai Information Systems?  I believe
this is a subsidiary of Hyundai Group.  I also believe it is in the Bay
area, although I am not quite sure.  I would like to know the address and
Phone, & FAX or any of the above.

Please E-mail me.

Thanks,

Kyu Lee

kylee@eskimo.com
(206)820-8941
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: mgw@world.std.com (maryanne g wolf)
Subject: Managerial Ambitions (was Re: transform a resume)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 21:49:32 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.065342.1979@vela.acs.oakland.edu> w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu writes:
>I see my future (much to Allen's disappointment, I'm sure) as holding slightly
>more material comfort and slightly less scruples.   My real disappointment with
>the job market is that there seem to be two kinds of jobs out there...1. total
>dead-end jobs (like mine) which require no responsibility, no creativity, no
>growth of skills etc. 2. careerist jobs that, while stimulating in some
>positive ways, require one to have managerial ambitions (we've all heard about
>people who painted themselves into a corner by pursuing a technical as opposed
>to managerial career track), and to display an almost cheerleader-like attitude
>toward the company and its products.  This would be understandable in a
>Japanese-style company which at least offers some degree of job security.  In
>America one gets laid off sooner or later, at which point (barring a career
>change) the professional is pounding the pavement at the competition, and
>(needless to say) faking orgasms about THEIR organization/product.  (Why do you
>suppose they refer to prostitution as the oldest profession?)

Curious that you say choosing the technical track paints one into a corner.
I had heard that a lot of mid-level managers were out of work as companies
flattened their hierarchies to become leaner, and that the technical people
continued to be in demand.  This doesn't solve your problem, but, is there
really a consensus about which track leads where?

Mary-Anne Wolf
mgw@world.std.com
"This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper." --T.S.Eliot

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: oleary@staff.tc.umn.edu ()
Subject: Reasonable Expectations (Re: Advice ...)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 08:32:22 GMT

In article <1hv0ruINNcai@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu
(Joel Plutchak) writes:

>In article <263@cnmhnet.UUCP> keithg@cnmhnet.UUCP (keith garrard) writes:
>
>>Yeah, now this, I like.  That always disgusted me in the past.  I 
>>send my resume in application for a position, and from reviewing my
>>resume, oone could see that I would certainly command a salary at more
>>than minimum wage level, and yet, the company will call, set up
>>an interview, and after you get there and talk with them for a half
>>hour, they tell you the salary, which is about $20,000 less than
>>you would even consider.  Then you've wasted your time and theirs.
>>Yeah, I hate that a lot.
>
>   But apparently not enough to inquire about the salary range for the
>position when they call to set up an interview.

For each position that opens in a company, there can be hundreds of
applicants.  That amounts to a lot of time and a fair amount of money spent
by a lot of people finding openings, researching companies, writing cover
letters and resumes, checking references, etc.  The least a company can do
for an applicant they are interested in, the few who made the five or ten
in 200 cut, is be honest and up-front with them.  It's a minimal effort for
the company and a reasonable expectation for the applicant.


+------------------->  Signature Block : Version 4.1  <---------------------+
|                                                                           |
|          "The two most powerful warriors are patience and time."          |
|                                            --- Leo Tolstoy                |
|                                                                           |
+---------------->   Copyright (c) 1993 by Doc O'Leary   <------------------+
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: danr@ais.org (Daniel Romanchik)
Subject: Re: What is essence of SUCCESS
Organization: UMCC
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 23:58:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.232853.4604@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> mike@drseus.jsc.nasa.gov (Mike Ross) writes:
>On the subject of weird interview questions, an employment application
>for Citgo Oil asked me if I slept with two pillows or one.
>
>I answered two pillows truthfully.  I've always wondered where that 
>answer put me in their eyes.  I did get the job, but that was in the
>early 80's when engineers could get jobs 'sight-unseen'.
>
   I wonder what the interviewer would have thought when I truthfully
answered, "I sleep without a pillow."  :)

=====================================================================
        Dan Romanchik              |        danr@umcc.ais.org
       Technical Editor            |         (313) 930-6564
   Test and Measurement World      |     MCI Mail: tmwromanchik
=====================================================================
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: jim@nestmoi.rain.com (Jim Chorn)
Subject: Job Posting Scripts (jobs.misc,jobs.contract posters please read)
Followup-To: jim@nestmoi.rain.com
Reply-Up: jim@nestmoi.rain.com
Organization: none - Portland, OR
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:51:53 GMT

If you use a shell script to post open positions on the net, please read on.

I'm doing a survey of what misc.jobs.offered and misc.jobs.contract
posting tools people use to send open positions to the net. I
perceive a need to write yet another shell script (or C program)
which people can use to ease this chore.  My goal is to make the
tools which are in the Public Domain available and *known* to all.

To further this goal I'm asking for you to answer the following 5 questions
by E-mail:

1. How do you post your open positions to the net?
	a) shell script which uses a simple question answer format
	   that allows article editing.
	b) postnews or other news posting tool composition using a
	   template file to "fill in the blanks" with your favorite editor.
	c) postnews or other news posting tool with *no* template file
	   (eg. from scratch).
	c) a customized Public Domain tool .
	d) a customized Proprietary tool.
	f) Other (Please explain).

2. Would you use a news posting tool if it made your work easier?
	a) Yes, If I knew where to get it.
	b) No, I infrequently post open positions.
	c) No, I have no support people to help me install/use it.
	d) Other (Please explain).

3. What type of system do you post your news articles for open positions?
	a) A Unix machine which has news tools.
	b) A Unix machine by e-mail.
	b) A PC which is connected to a Unix machine using a communications
	   software package (Pcomm, tip, cu or other terminal program).
	c) A PC but don't have to call another system to post
	   news interactively.
	d) Don't quite know (Please explain how you post your articles).
	e) Other (Please explain system type and how you do it).

4. Does your system support any of the following (remove inappropriate Y or N):
	Y/N   sh, csh shell scripts
	Y/N   C program compiler
	Y/N   make
	Y/N   tar
	Y/N   compress/uncompress
	Y/N   gnu tools gnumake/gnutar/gcc

5. If you use a tool which you can provide to everyone please note where
   it lives, or a contact e-mail address and I will follow up.

Results of this summary will determine if I should apply my skills
or simply pass on pointers to the group at large via the monthly
net etiquette posting (Permission has been granted) to
misc.jobs.offered/contract.

Thank You.

Respond to:

-jim		jim@nestmoi.rain.com or uunet!nestmoi.rain.com!jim
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: popelka@odysseus.uchicago.edu (Glenn Popelka)
Subject: ultramac runs amok
Organization: University of Chicago  LASR
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 00:24:57 GMT

I'm seeing duplicated articles in several jobs groups
apparently originating from a site called 'ultramac',
with an 'Organization' line reading 'Odyssey Ultraware, Inc'


Many of those articles weren't so hot the *first* time around...


glenn
From: hemant@wpi.WPI.EDU (Hemant Rotithor)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: What is essence of SUCCESS
Date: 30 Dec 92 18:44:42 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <EfEDuOC00WBNM2ZpMM@andrew.cmu.edu> zh00+@andrew.cmu.edu (Zhengguo Hu) writes:
>  I was recently interviewed by a consulting company. The interviewer
>ask me the question:
>  "How would you describe the essence of success?"
>  This question surprised me. What are your answers?
>Ed
My response would be:
Feeling good about what you do.
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Subject: Re: Ethics Question
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 21:56:24 GMT

In article <9301020809.AA11708@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu>, baker-j@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (john t baker) writes:
>
>I would like some opinions on the following:
>
>The company I work for offers a $150bonus for proffering candidates that they
>actually hire and stay with the company for 90 days.  I would assume that they
>think that anyone I refer in this way I personally know their ability level.
>My company does not have net access.  What if I post positns open to 
>misc.jobs.offered and forward the replies I receive as referrals?  I can see
>myself heartily increasing my salary in this way.
>
>Please tell me your opinions by posting or sending email.
>__
>John Baker

Well, if by some miracle you post anything I qualify for, I'll be glad to tell
'em John Baker sent me.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Walter Lee                                          w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu

If you suspect a man, don't employ him.
From: mike@isgtec.com (Mike Sellers)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: What is essence of SUCCESS
Date: 1 Jan 93 03:21:17 GMT
Organization: ISG Technologies Inc., Mississauga Ontario

ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:
> zh00+@andrew.cmu.edu (Zhengguo Hu) writes:
>      I was recently interviewed by a consulting company. The interviewer
>    ask me the question:
>      "How would you describe the essence of success?"
> 
>      This question surprised me. What are your answers?

Emerson said: 

    "To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent 
    people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation
    of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to
    appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the
    world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch,
    or a redeemed social condition; to know that even one life has
    breathed easier because you have lived.  This is to have succeeded."

I think that pretty well covers it.

What this kind of question is trying to get at, if the interviewer is
a perceptive person, is what kind of person you are, and thus whether
you will fit in their group.  Whether your short answer is "to make 
money" or "to get babes" or "to learn more," you've just revealed 
something significant about yourself.  Since we work with _people_ 
and not just with skill sets, it's important to discern up front whether 
the deep goals of someone's life match that of the hiring company.  This
is a good predictor of whether that person will be a long-term asset to
the company, and whether the company will be an asset to the individual.

> [...] You don't have to assume that every question put to you is 
> legitimate and the one they asked you sounds to me to be way out 
> of line. 

Why do you say this?  Actually (having been on both sides of the table),
I think this sounds like a great question.  Of course, how perceptively
it's used by the interviewer will vary widely.
--
              Mike Sellers      User Interface Team Leader
           mike@isgtec.com      ISG Technologies, Toronto, Canada
              "Actum ne agas" -- Do not do what has been done.
                         Furare tantum ab Optimis
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: mgw@world.std.com (maryanne g wolf)
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 20:29:00 GMT

I am job-hunting, and I have also screened resumes.
I understand that it is annoying to get resumes you are not interested in.
I'd like the people who don't want inappropriate resumes
to propose an alternative.  I'm not convinced that there is one.

Imagine you work for a company which will not pay a recruiter if an
inferior but adequate candidate applies without one.  Imagine that you
don't advertise or post most jobs because people don't like being
buried in resumes.  It has been my experience that some companies do
NOT advertise all of the positions that are available, even when they
advertise some of them.  Imagine that you are hiring in one of these
unadvertised positions.  An outsider would not know whether you're
hiring, whether you advertise all positions, or whether any recruiters
are used, much less the ones that have this job-hunter's resume.

So, for the sake of discussion, imagine that this hypothetical
job-hunter is totally perfect for the unadvertised position, better
qualified than all of the friends of people who already work on the
project.  Again, they have no way to know whether this is true.

Now, if the job-hunter has no friend in the right part of your
company, and you don't advertise because your time is wasted by
unwanted resumes, how does your prospective perfect candidate find out
about the job?  I can understand demanding that a cold resume or a
poor match for the posted position come with an appropriate
cover-letter, but unless companies can be counted upon to advertise
all their positions, which they don't, there is no alternative to
sending resumes to people who might not want them, as far as I can see.

Is there?

Mary-Anne Wolf
mgw@world.std.com
Xref: sparky misc.jobs.misc:8432 misc.consumers:21345
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,misc.consumers
Distribution: world
From: raph@ultramac.uucp (Raphael Figueroa)
Organization: Odyssey Ultraware, Inc
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:27:14 CDT
Subject: mailing lists...

I don't know wether or not this is a good area to post this message. Pardon me
if I just made a mistake.

I am in need of a mailing list with listings of Mac users in the US area. 

If anyone knows where I can get ahod of this, or if you know of a broker in
business, please contact me. 

Rafael Figueroa
raph@oui.com
From: masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Northerners moving south - questions
Date: 2 Jan 93 15:20:38 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

briscoe@cco.caltech.edu (Duke P. Briscoe) writes:

>What about the inverse move; e.g from Athens, GA to Boston, as I am
>about to do?  Is one always pegged as a dumsuthener? 

Personally, I don't think so, but there are, ah, "socially challenged"
people everywhere, as your next passage points out.

The whole issue reminds me of a psych experiment I heard about once...
a group of people were placed in a room, with no instructions at all.
Half of them were given red party hats, half were given blue party
hats. At first, they mingled freely, but eventually the two groups
separated themselves. In exit interviews, one of the blue-hats said,
"I don't know what's going on, but I don't like what the guys in the
red hats are doing."

Like a friend of mine says, "People are funnier than anybody." :)

>I was mildly
>irritated while doing job interviews in Boston when someone made some
>remark about Southerners, not realizing I was from the South.

Well, cross that one off your list of potential friends... I've seen
similar behavior inflicted on people, totally undeserved, and I didn't
like it much.

>I think you can
>find good people to interact with socially all over the US, and why
>worry about the rest (unless you have a major accent and plan to be a
>salesperson in some small Southern town).

Well, this is a relief, and it seems to be the general consensus.  But
worrying is my favorite sport. :-) Fortunately, I am not, and have
never been, and have no ambitions to be, a salesman -er- management
trainee.

- Steve (masticol@cs.rutgers.edu).
From: keithg@cnmhnet.UUCP (keith garrard)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Advice from a hiring manager on resume
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:53:08 GMT
Organization: California-Nevada Methodist Homes

In article <1992Dec16.171134.6068@news2.cis.umn.edu> oleary@staff.tc.umn.edu writes:
>But did you ever come out and say, "Given your experience, education, and
>job progression, your starting salary with our company will probably be in
>the $xx,xxx-xx,xxx range.  Is this an acceptable figure?"  Only one 
>company I've ever interviewed with has done this and they did it when they
>called to set up the interview.

Yeah, now this, I like.  That always disgusted me in the past.  I 
send my resume in application for a position, and from reviewing my
resume, oone could see that I would certainly command a salary at more
than minimum wage level, and yet, the company will call, set up
an interview, and after you get there and talk with them for a half
hour, they tell you the salary, which is about $20,000 less than
you would even consider.  Then you've wasted your time and theirs.
Yeah, I hate that a lot.

--Keith

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: mgw@world.std.com (maryanne g wolf)
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:09:06 GMT

In article <1hqihoINN8cd@meaddata.meaddata.com> douglash@meaddata.com (Douglas Holzworth) writes:
>In article <C01423.Bs9@world.std.com>, mgw@world.std.com (maryanne g wolf) writes:
>|> In article <1992Dec29.041740.10191@netcom.com> marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis) writes:
>|> >> mgw@world.std.com (maryanne g wolf) writes:
>|> >>I am job-hunting, and I have also screened resumes.
>|> >>I understand that it is annoying to get resumes you are not interested in.
>|> >>I'd like the people who don't want inappropriate resumes
>|> >>to propose an alternative.  I'm not convinced that there is one.
>|> >>
>|> 
>     [Lines deleted]
>
>
>|> Please don't misunderstand.  I *am* concerned.  I have been at the
>|> receiving end of resumes too.  It is bothersome.  That is why I asked
>|> for alternatives.  
>|> 
>
>Mary Anne,
>
>     It may help to define "inappropriate resume" here.  What I view as a
>     waste of time is a solicitation that isn't even in the ballpark (e.g.,
>     a recent grad or career-change hopeful for a senior position).  IF the
>     original post was clear in its requirements, then people who are clearly
>     shy of those requirements are wasting everyone's time.  People who
>     are in the ballpark are not a waste of time.  I've had resumes come
>     to me for technical writer positions from people in the fast food
>     industry (no additional training or preparation, just a desire to
>     change careers).  I've had resumes for graphic artist positions from
>     clerks (hey, I can draw!).  These people may have a burning need to
>     find a job (or a new job), but that doesn't mean they spent their time
>     well applying for the ones I posted.

I agree completely about trying to move from fast-food to tech writing
without training.  No argument there.

I am not so sure about recent grads applying for senior positions.
If the cover-letter is clear and they have some of the relevant 
experience, it might be a matter of judgement.

I'm glad we cleared that up.

Mary-Anne Wolf
mgw@world.std.com