HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: Re: 1st Person viewpoints
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 13:57:36 GMT

In article <ELIZ.92Jul20111937@corpus-callosum.ai.mit.edu>, eliz@ai.mit.edu
(Elizabeth Willey) wrote:

> The narrator, if first person, can be used to see things, do things,
> and show things---sometimes without observing himself their true
> significance, though the reader may understand it---just as real people
> see, do, and show things without being aware that he is doing so.  The
> narrative presented by the narrator is subject to many levels of
> manipulation.  This requires an attentive author, because it means
> that information can be obliquely presented to the (presumably
> attentive) reader, ebedded in the narrator's actions and reactions and
> in what he is allowed (by the author) to tell the reader.
> 
> I find first-person narration great fun both to read and to write,
> much more interesting than third-person, because of this layering of
> meanings and the demands it places on author and reader both.  One can
> play with what the narrator sees, what the narrator tells the reader
> he sees, what the reader thinks the narrator saw, and what the author
> knows the narrator saw.  The narrator is fallible, and will interpret
> things differently than the reader, and perhaps is not reliable, and
> will actively conceal things from the reader.  As for the narrator not
> knowing things, this can be a source of tension and interest in the
> narrative, and is by no means a liability.  Thus I don't find that
> first-person narrative is confining; third-person narrative requires,
> I think, much more tiresome explanation and elucidation, especially
> with shifting viewpoints, than first-person.  But this is perhaps
> primarily a matter of taste.
> 
> 
> Elizabeth Willey

Amen.

Ever read Thomas Tryon's  "The Other"? 

Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: cass8806@elan.glassboro.edu (KYLE CASSIDY)
Subject: Re: taboo subjects?
Organization: Glassboro State College, Glassboro, NJ
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:17:49 GMT

In article <24925@dog.ee.lbl.gov> jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) writes:

>>My agent's response was extremely, EXTREMELY negative.  To quote him,
>>"One doesn't write romance novels involving crippled heroines."  

>Interesting.  Arthur Hailey's novel "Overload," published in the late 
>70s, had a quadraplegic love interest for our hero.

what about "the other side of the mountian?" about the quadroplegic skiier? 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates)
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Writer's Block!!!
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:31:33 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.091835.1@lure.latrobe.edu.au> 
miuvdd@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes:
> So if anyone out there has any ideas how I might overcome this evil
> foe, I would much appreciate it!

Maybe a hot shower would help -- *without* a tape recorder, paper and 
pencil, or other recording device to reinforce the block. (See recent 
thread on bad places to have good ideas.)

You might also work with the clustering technique developed by Gabrielle 
Rico. She describes it in her book Writing the Natural Way.


************************************
I worked as a technical writer ... editing manuals ... on how to dispose 
of sewage in permafrost; we all had to wear white shirts -- that was 
mandatory -- and I was fired at the end of two weeks for spending too much 
time staring out the window.  
(Edward Abbey)
************************************ 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash)
Subject: STC/editor
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:23:52 GMT


I would like information regarding STC and any similar
organizations for technical writers. I have been assigned
to develop descriptions for different types of editors
(example: content editor, style editor, copy editor) and
appropriate levels (example: what type of tasks would a senior
editor be expected to perform?).  

In addition to information regarding those organizations, 
I would appreciate hearing
from any one who has such a position for which a job description
exists.  

Please respond to me via e-mail.  

Thank you!

Joanne Eglash
From: cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Bad Places to have Good Ideas
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:01:56 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

In article <1992Jul23.171106.17913@ee.ubc.ca> daveg@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Gagne) 
writes:
> I was
> getting pretty worried about how I was going to remember all this good
> stuff. I tried desperately to curb the flow of ideas, lest I lose
> *all* of them before I could get out of the shower

What! You mean you didnt run out into the street nude and ask passers by 
for a pencil? 

Seriously, dont worry. The ideas will still be there. You may not be able 
to access them exactly when you want them, but they are still there, 
getting better all the time.  Consider this part of your mind a friend you 
can trust, not a messenger who will vanish when you grab a towel.

If the ideas were coming as images, rather than words, you only need to 
intensify the images, enhancing the colors, shapes, and detail.  If you 
retrieve only part of an image, it is usually enough to eventually get 
back the whole picture.  This is a good example of the thread that died a 
couple of days ago -- about disabling the internal editor long enough to 
let creative material flow freely.  

This is a mode of thinking that makes a lot of  people uncomfortable, 
maybe because they fear losing control (which they never have) or 
forgetting it, like you felt, also a matter of control. Nuts? No way. How 
about perfectly normal? 

************************************
I worked as a technical writer ... editing manuals ... on how to dispose 
of sewage in permafrost; we all had to wear white shirts -- that was 
mandatory -- and I was fired at the end of two weeks for spending too much 
time staring out the window.  
(Edward Abbey)
************************************ 
From: cdfk@otter.hpl.hp.com (Caroline Knight)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 09:01:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Point of view (was Genre)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: misc.writing

In misc.writing, eoghanni@castle.ed.ac.uk (Eoghann Irving) writes:

> 	I am pretty sure that I do it beacsue I am male, I make very few
> assumptions about a story before I have read it. However, my reasons
> alone don't really say very much. So, do women assume a male viewpoint
> as well, or not? Perhaps we could have a poll of some sort.

I assume male POV unless I have reason to think otherwise, eg writer has
only written (to my knowledge) female POV before.  I am aware that I
type cast the author this way but also assume that they are good enough
writers to clear any chance of misapprehension away asap if they are
doing a different POV for a change.

Incidentally this assumption of femaleness or maleness is something that
happens alot on the net - as one can chose any sig one wants (on some
systems) and one cannot always tell from a name in any case... 


Caroline
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: art@wvus.org (Art Nicolaysen)
Subject: script-writing software question
Organization: Wvus, Monrovia, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 03:51:19 GMT


This is being posted for a friend.  I have enough trouble as it is
getting the !@?#% text editor to do what I want ;-)

Please respond via email.   Thanks,   Art

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello there,

I know that there are specific software programs for screen-writers
(television/film). I would like to know if anybody has found a similar
program for play writing.  The main requirement is that the program
does the standard formatting expected by producers, etc.  Would also
like to know what computers it runs on, features, documentation, and
ease of use.  I have used Word Perfect 5.1, but don't think it can do
what I want in this regard..

Thanks in Advance,
Debbie Martin


--
From: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: taboo subjects?
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:47:26 GMT
Reply-To: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.198
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

I wrote:
>>Interesting.  Arthur Hailey's novel "Overload," published in the late 
>>70s, had a quadraplegic love interest for our hero.  

Then Suzanne Barrett dashed my hopes for a gold medal in the bosom heave
by responding:
>But Joe, Hailey's novel was/is mainstream.  Anything goes in mainstream.  
>The romance genre (and PLEASE--not bodice rippers.  I hope we've 
>progressed beyond that) has certain criteria...

Well, I guess you can't make an omelet without getting egg on your face.

I still think you ought to maybe shop it around again (assuming that it
meets the other conventions of the genre, which I plainly don't understand).
You don't need to convince _all_ romance publishers that the disabled 
are appropriate as characters -- just one.  

Good luck,
--Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: tfarmer@datamark.co.nz (Thomas Farmer)
Subject: Re: What font do you write/type in?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 01:33:43 GMT
Organization: Datamark International Ltd.

In article <1992Jul28.171040.8565@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> lputnam@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee P Putnam) writes:
>There have been numerous postings in this group about the correct format
>that one should use when SUBMITTING a peice of writing. I was wondering
>though what font/style people use in WRITING. For example, when I write on
>this mac, I tend to write with Hel. 9pt single spacing. But when I
>finish I "puff" it up by changing font, size, etc.

Well, I WYSIWYG away happily all day in Zapf Calligraphic (Palatino)
11 and 13 point. (It's then displayed at 85% size on my 800*600 pixel
14" screen.)

I don't have the option of choosing fonts after the piece is written
because a lot of my work is maintenance of existing documents.

Anyway, I got a fast computer so I really could WYSIWYG proerly. (For
the techos - 486/33 with Word for Windows.)
-- 
    Thomas Farmer | tfarmer@datamark.co.nz    or | Amiga 2.04, AIX 3.1
Datamark Intl Ltd | tfarmer@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz | Win 3.1, OS/2 2.0
 Technical Writer | 
    & PC Wrangler | If I had something witty to say, I'd put it here.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Subject: Re: Reserach in Fiction
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:39:08 GMT
Organization: Dobonia


In article <1992Jul21.141728.29806@bwdls61.bnr.ca>, pww@bnr.ca (Peter Whittaker) writes:
|In article <1992Jul20.175859.571@HQ.Ileaf.COM> hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh) writes:
|>One example of a "howler" is the use of parsecs as a unit of time in Star Wars.
|
|That's fine:  all units of distance are acceptable as units of time as
|well.  It is perfectly legitimate for me to say "See you in 90
|gigametres"; you might have difficulty figuring out that I mean "See
|you in 5 minutes", but that is something we'd have to work out.

So, of course, a story in which someone said "See you in 90 gigametres"
would be a good story if the author had done enough research to know
that this was a legitimate expression, but a bad story if he hadn't.
Or perhaps what we're learning here is that it isn't the scientific
facts that make for a good story, it's the writing.
-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
From: dsals@vms.macc.wisc.edu (David Sals)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: HELP!!! Writer's Block!!!
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:25:54 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

In article <1992Jul30.091835.1@lure.latrobe.edu.au>, miuvdd@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes...

>Help!!!!
> 
>I'm in a slump!  I'm in a rut!  I have the dreaded writers block, and
>nothing I do seems to do any good!
> 
>So if anyone out there has any ideas how I might overcome this evil
>foe, I would much appreciate it!
> 
> 
>Morgana
> 
>***********************************************************************
>Reality is for those who can't handle decent fiction...
>***********************************************************************

Your signature line seems oddly appropriate in this case.  Since you 
seem to be having trouble handling decent fiction (writer's block), 
you might turn to reality.

I wish that I could remember where I read this, but it is very 
effective for me:

Go outside, to some place where you can watch people--a park, a main 
street, whatever--and observe them.  Try to describe everything that 
you notice about them, and even things that you can't see but expect 
are there (personality, attitudes, dreams & desires).  Then start 
conjecturing about how they got that way, what their major influences 
were, what types of people they hang out with, who their parents were.

Soon you have a very developed character, and probably a story to go 
with him or her.  Once your muse is back, you (hopefully) can focus 
you attention on your work in progress again.

I hope this helps.  Good luck!
   					:-D ave
From: eoghanni@castle.ed.ac.uk (Eoghann Irving)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Life as Art, vice as versa
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:02:59 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Jul27.185559.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> rstepno@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>That is, what do you think about churning your friends' lives into
>fiction?

	VERY dodgy. I don't like using peoples lives in the sense of
simply copying entire events because they were funny or whatever. I'm
supposed to be writing fiction. I should be able to make it up.
	On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with using something
that happens to a friend as the basis for a story, just dont copy
wholesale.
	I also avoid copying peoples personalities for my characters. I
use individual character traits, but I try to mix and match to create
new characters. Apart from anything else, I wouldn't want everybody I
knew constantly being on guard because they were worried I was going to
write about them.


-- 
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|		     OPINIONS ARE THERE TO BE LAUGHED AT.                      |
|  all text or parts thereof withinin this box are TM of Eoghann Irving 1992   |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: Re: taboo subjects?
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:46:06 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.023810.1516@math.ucla.edu>,
ramirez@julia.math.ucla.edu (Alice Ramirez) wrote:
> 
> Awhile back, I wrote a book length manuscript that contained a romantic
> love theme involving a physically disabled woman and an ablebodied man.
> 
> My agent's response was extremely, EXTREMELY negative.  To quote him,
> "One doesn't write romance novels involving crippled heroines."  

> This is, at least in my case, more than idle inquiry.  I had considered this my
> best, or at very least most socially relevant works;  my agent's response
> was devastating, I was unable to find another agent to handle this, editors of
> my acquaintance were uncomfortable with this topic and the result of all this
> is that my talent, or whatever you may call it, seems to have congealed.  I
> have drifted away from fiction and work now in another, unrelated field.  What
> writing I still do and get published is fundamentally non-fiction, on horti-
> culture.

Please don't give up.  The fiction marketplace NEEDS people who present the
world from a different point-of-view.  You're not the first contemporary
author to run up against a wall...

 Tony Hillerman, for instance, had terrible  difficulty selling the concept
of a native American detective/hero.  No one, he  was told, would be
interested.
 He advises that you write a manuscript to *your* satisfaction and then get
it
into the mail.  He estimates 15-20 rejections before you get a good
reading.

Remember, too, that the marketplace evolves and books that were once taboo
can become acceptable overnight.  The type of book Emy Tan (no, not a
relative)
writes wouldn't have been possible a decade ago.  Wouldn't it be great to
be
the author recognized as *starting* the trend?

At the recent Romance Writers of America conference, I heard repeatedly
that
the traditional romance  market has leveled off, and that  publishers
are  looking for different approaches.   Maybe your heroine is still too
different
for them.  Maybe not.

I guess what I'm saying is "Don't let the turkeys get you down."  And, in
this
instance, your agent is definitely gobbling.

Maureen (a.k.a. Jane) 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: joe@zitt (Joe Zitt)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Reserach in Fiction
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 01:01:07 CDT
Organization: The Shekhinah Project, Austin, TX

Is there a secret conspiracy to keep this the longest-lived misspelled title
to be tolerated by writers, or is it a secret Dune reference? Who >is< the
Kwisatz Reserach?
--
"Go to an extreme and then retreat to a more useful position"  --  Brian Eno
Joe Zitt 	       ...cs.utexas.edu!kvue!zitt!joe  	       (512)450-1916
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Life as Art, vice as versa
Date: 28 Jul 92 14:17:16 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Jul27.185559.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> rstepno@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>How do you respond when your date admits that he/she is a novelist
>(unpublished) and offers to loan you her/his last manuscript
>about the previous significant other... or the novel before that,
>about the person before that...?


You get another date.



-- 
===============================================================================
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind, or not to have a mind is being very
wasteful.  How true that is."--J. Danforth Quayle to United Negro College Fund
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Reserach in Fiction
From: Dion_Murphy@kcbbs.gen.nz (Dion Murphy)
Date: 27 Jul 92 02:07:59 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand

It suddenly occurs to me that we are talking at cross purposes here, 
what is research in fiction?
I think the answer is that we have to define what we are writing about 
and whether the technical details have a bearing on the story.
I recall one piece I wrote about a guy visiting Toronto, in the evening 
they had been to a business meeting and returned to the visitors hotel. 
I looked at the map and decribed them driving back via the CN tower, 
only I later found that what was three inches on the map was a 30 mile 
car journey and totally stupid.

If you are relying on a fictional background, no-one can fault you. 
But if the real world has any knind of impact on the story then I think 
you must pay some attention to what is factual and what is not. Also 
I believe we should give some weight to the idea of continuity.
No power lines in the background in a film about the 17th century, no 
rubber soled boots in a Robin Hood movie, and if the story is about 
 sea-going subjects give some thought to how far a boat can travel in 
a given period of time. One war/naval novel I read had a destroyer travelling 
at full speed from the baring straits and arriving in hawaii only 6 
hours later.
To say that we should damn the mistakes and get on with the book might 
explain why publishing houses are so unwilling to accept un-asked for 
manuscripts from amateurs who don't have the professionalsm to write 
a good manuscript in the first place.
On the other hand, if your story is only to be read by yourself and 
a few friends,,,,what the heck. Fill it with errors,,,the world will 
never know.

A real writer takes the time to learn to write and not to make mistakes.
After my dreadful gaffe on the Toronto story(which fortunately was picked 
up by the editor, I have submitted all my work for checking of the facts 
and times and places and all. 

If you make mistakes , learn from them

A "writer" who continues to make mistakes without caring is not a genuine 
writer, but a lazy wordsmith.
From: wkeown@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: taboo subjects?
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:15:27 GMT
Organization: Auburn University, AL

ramirez@julia.math.ucla.edu (Alice Ramirez) wrote:
>Awhile back, I wrote a book length manuscript that contained a romantic
>love theme involving a physically disabled woman and an ablebodied man.
>
>My agent's response was extremely, EXTREMELY negative.  To quote him,
>"One doesn't write romance novels involving crippled heroines."

    In 1987, Harlequin, the bastion of formula romance, published _Night
into Day_ by Sandra Canfield (Superromance #278).  The heroine has
rheumatoid arthritis, walks with a cane, and is preparing for hip surgery. 
The hero is an aging pro-football quarterback who learns to cope with her
mobility problems, the ups and downs of her disease, and low-impact sex.  
    A note in the author's bio indicates that she herself has suffered with
arthritis for twenty years and experienced many of the events in the book. 
Since the majority of romance writers are willing to assist new writers,
you may want to contact her to discuss sympathetic agents/editors at the
following address (given in a recent issue of _Romantic Times_ that
discussed her newest book):

    Sandra Canfield
    2052 Pepper Ridge Drive
    Shreveport, LA  71115


---
Wanda Keown                 Internet:  wkeown@ducvax.auburn.edu
Auburn University
From: jswthomp@milton.u.washington.edu (James Thompson)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Reserach in Fiction (the SF tangent)
Date: 21 Jul 92 18:38:21 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Jul21.132114.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> mschmitt@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>	Note title has been uncorrected.  :)

>	If you're going to "bend" or "break" the laws of physics as we
>currently understand them, then you _NEED_ to know what laws you're breaking or
>bending.  Otherwise, you tend to just look like a baffoon.

What does a baffoon look like?  Is this a new genetic strain?  Or maybe a
buffoon with a transplanted baboon heart?

Jim
From: suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com (Suzanne Barrett)
Subject: Re: What font do you write/type in?
Organization: Lockheed Santa Cruz, CA.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 21:20:15 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.184548.19412@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> lputnam@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee P Putnam) writes:


>Since there was all that talk as to what font people shoould use in a MS, I
>was wondering what font people type in for best writing. I've gotten into 
>the habit of typing in 9pt helvetica when using macs. What do you use and
>if you change it is it harder to write? 

>-lee (p).

I use 12pt sans serif for submissions.
-----
suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com