Organization: Penn State University
Date: Monday, 13 Apr 1992 10:16:34 EDT
From: John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: WEEMBA jests or admits atheism? (Was: Re: WEEMBA and DABROWSKI Ang
Distribution: world,public
 <92099.140742J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> <73453@netnews.upenn.edu>
 <92101.135955J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> <73623@netnews.upenn.edu>

In article <73623@netnews.upenn.edu>, weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P
Wiener) says:
>
>In article <92101.135955J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm (John A. Johnson)
>writes:
>>What about the Jewish version, as understood by yourself?
>
>That's just it.  I don't understand it.  I've been bothering rabbis
>on it for quite some time now, and they can give me all sorts of
>interesting stories and spiels and the like, and sometimes say to
>not listen to certain other rabbis, etc.
>
>It's interesting, but I don't understand it.  As I said to one rabbi,
>"Given what you say is true, then yes, I believe in God, but I don't
>believe that I believe in God."

Now imagine that molecular biologists talked to you that way the rabbis
did.  Would you take their ideas seriously?  I wouldn't.   What is it
about rabbis which allows them to be taken seriously when they say that
rabbis (including themselves) might be lying in order to make you think?

Let me guess.  The subject matter of which they speak is of a higher order,
truly unfathomable to the human mind.  So it is okay to be vague, to lie,
to evade, to cast seeds of doubt, to self-contradict.  Excuse me while
I hurl chunks.

>
>>>There's a Chassidic story told about a disciple having deep anxiety over
>>>his philosophical doubts regarding God.  He goes to his rebbe and tells
>>>him his troubles.  The rebbe asks him if he's eating the pork, cursing
>>>his parents, working on the Sabbath etc.  The disciple is shocked and
>>>repulsed at the suggestions.  So the rebbe tells him he doesn't have any
>>>real doubts (ie, in the real world), just imaginary ones (ie, in his mind).
>
>>IMHO, the disciple's perspective is all important.  If he buys the
>>rebbe's distinction, then he is no atheist.  If he doesn't buy it,
>>then the doubts in his mind are real and he is a candidate for atheism.
>
>But what if the rebbe is lying, and merely wants to give the discipline
>something else to think about?  There's something about these questions
>that can burn a whole in your brain if you let them.  It doesn't even
>have to be religious: some people start thinking about solipsism and
>are lost.

These kind of stories (which also can be found in the Sufi, Buddhist, and
Taoist traditions) I find valuable precisely because they shake the
the rigidity of analytic thinking.  But if the result is solipsism,
feeling lost or confused, or permanent inactivity, I think the potential
value of the lesson has not been fulfilled.

As for the question at hand ("Is the disciple an atheist or at least
headed for atheism?"), again, to me that depend's on whether the
disciple thinks the rebbe is lying.
-----------------------------------
John A. Johnson (J5J@psuvm.psu.edu)
Department of Psychology Penn State DuBois Campus 15801
Penn State is not responsible for my behavior.
"Cynicism is the first religion.  It is the means by which to discover
 all else, since cynicism implies skepticism.  Skepticism results in
 examination, and examination leads to understanding."  from
 _The Spirit of Shaolin_ by David Carradine