HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 92 14:00:01 METDST
Reply-To:     History <HISTORY@IRLEARN>
From:         George Welling <welling@GUFALET.LET.RUG.NL>
Subject:      Re: Re:Europe getting together
              92 8:18 am
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history


> Well, you don't need a USE to avoid the sort of fratricidal strife that has
> plagued the continent this century, do you?  Which is really what I was aiming
> at.  Comments I saw reported after the Wall fell and the Soviets started to
> pull out led me to wonder if anyone had learned anything in the past 70 years.
> Seemed like all the old causes, issues, problems, and quarrels sprang right
> back to life all over again.  Depressing, to tell the truth.
>
It is, I agree. But I am afraid it is the result of fourty years of
repression. Everything from before that period seems to have a great
attraction (no matter how bad it was). Strangely enough, the maps from my
fathers schooldays (in the thirties) are rather more accurate than mine (from
the sixties) and I am very happy with his "Groote Bosch Atlas der Wereld".

--
===============================================================================
|   __   __            || George M. Welling         ||   __   __              |
|  /  '-' (         ,, || welling@let.rug.nl        ||  /  '-' (         ,,,  |
| {  I I ||||||||||[::]|| dep. Alfa-Informatica HCI || {  I I ||||||||||[:::] |
|  \__.-._(         '' || University of Groningen   ||  \__.-._(         '''  |
| tel : +31 50 63 5474 || The Netherlands           || fax : +31 50 63 4900   |
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
From: mcs@unlinfo.unl.edu (michael straatmann)
Subject: Re: Roman Battle Tactics
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Distribution: world, na, usa, local
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:44:42 GMT


>On Fri, 10 Apr 1992 09:03:00 GMT, Avatar wrote:

>> 	Could someone please inform me as to the tactics used by the Romans in
>> battle.  I am especially interested in the various formations they used,
>>such as the phalanx.  Thank you very much.

Two very good sources are _Stragemata_ by Frontinius (1st C. Roman) and 
the work by Vesetius (don't remember the title off hand, but it is excellent)
Both of these are in most major academic libraries.
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 10:45:45 EDT
From:         Michael Cammer <cammer@AECOM.YU.EDU>
Subject:      historically accurate TV

What about Roots?


--
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:10:41 PDT
From:         "Joe T. Coohill" <GD03JTC@UCSBVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Visiting Ireland

*** Reply to note of 04/06/92 11:55

Anyone visiting the south-west of Ireland must go to Kinsale, about 20 miles
south of Cork.  Two important historical forts are there (their names slip
my mind), and lots of idyllic walks and views along the coast.  It can be
a bit touristy in the summer, but if you walk out far enough the uglies
fade away.

Also visit Skibbereen (Co. Cork), and Kenmare (Co. Kerry) - a lovely
small town at the mouth of the Kenmare river.

-Joe Coohill
UC Santa Barbara
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 14:10:35 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Clinton's Platform is . . .?
              17 Apr 1992 12:27:25 EDT from <daved@WESTFORD.CCUR.COM>

I really think that Clinton probably does have a platform.

My fear is that it is being witheld from me by the press, mainly CNN.
I know that CNN actively bends both the news and the language to its
convenience, so I suspect the worst.

So the next question is "Why?".  If this information is being witheld,
why?

Lenny
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 09:08:00 EST
From:         LAMITIRE@SNYPLAVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Jefferson Davis (?)

Date sent:  13-APR-1992 09:05:55

>Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 12:27:00 GMT
>From: Avatar <v064lnev@UBVMSB.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
>Subject: Jefferson Davis (?)
>
>Hello Historians...
>
>       I would like to think I am well versed in civil war history, however, I
>have been bothered by one question that I have not been able to find an answer
>to.  Perhaps someone out there can help me...
>       What happenned to Jefferson Davis after Lee surrendered at Appomatox
>(sp?) Courthouse?
>                                       .
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

Your question is a good one and I also would like an answer to it. Maybe
someone on the list can give us an answer.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 20:07:42 EDT
From: <CMH114@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Japanese Parliamentary Elections?

Uh, hi. I'm writing a paper on the change from political party control of the
Japanese Gov'nt to Military domination. I finished my research, mostly(PSU's
library is a little light on Asian History in English) and sat down to write,
and discovered I was missing a vital piece of Info. When was the first full
parliamentary elections after the 1925 universal male sufferage reforms? My
intuition says after the fall of the Wakatsuki cabinet in april 1927, but the
standard texts only mention elections in febuary of 1928. Was there an election
before the feb 1928 one that I am missing? It is kind of important, because it
can be seen as a measure of how afraid the parties were of thier new
constuency.


Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Laboratories
Terraforming Division
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 10:22:00 CDT
From:         Dave Rausch <AA0279@UOKMVSA.BITNET>
Subject:      Jefferson Davis' Home

Last year my wife and I drove from New Orleans to Vicksburg on the River
Route.  We passed through a small town (road junction) barely north of
the Mississippi-Louisiana state line and saw signs directing us to Jefferson
Davis' home.  The town was Woodville, Mississippi, and I think the
plantation's name was Briarfield.

Did it matter to Davis' skills as CSA President that he hailed from a western
part of the Confederacy?

DAVE RAUSCH
U of Oklahoma
AA0279@UOKMVSA
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Original_To:  HISTORY
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 20:59:00 EST
From:         BROWNH@CTSTATEU.BITNET
Subject:      social history

Lenny asks, Just what is "Non-Eurocentric World History?" Somehow I get
the feeling that, more than really wanting to get an answer, Lenny im-
plies there simply is no such thing. So the following four definitions
serve only to illustrate that it is possible to define the thing, even
if some of the following definitions will not please everyone. Inciden-
tally, my inclination is to suggest that the four definitions are not
only compatible with one another, but that in principle all four are
necessary to a full definition. So let me tentatively put forth the
following:

a)A world history that does not select, stress, or evaluate past events
or situations primarily on the basis of their contribution to the forma-
tion of modern Europe.

b)A world history that justifies its implicit or explicit basic con-
ceptual tools, assumptions, perspectives, and theoretical models on
grounds other than their happening to be those of modern Euro-American
culture and science.

c)A world history that sees modern Euro-American world dominance as
merely a passing phase of world historical development rather than the
end or culmination of world history.

d)A world history having an ideological function that serves the inter-
ests of the majority of the world's population today rather than the
Euro-American white male pro-capitalist minority. That is, rather than
present a Euro-American part of the whole as universal, it takes the
world in its entirety and seeks to concretize it as a particular which
is called world history.

Haines Brown  (brownh@ccsu.ctstateu.edu)
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 22:08:00 EDT
From:         RATH@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: the social history list

Bob:
        This sounds great.  Please subscribe met to the social history
list.  Thanks.
Rich Rath
Dpt of History
Brandeis University
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 11:30:00 CDT
From:         Dave Rausch <AA0279@UOKMVSA.BITNET>
Subject:      J. Davis as a Citizen of the U.S.

The discussion on the life and death of Jefferson Davis has encouraged me to
do a little research.  I have found that full citizenship was returned to
the former CSA President in 1978.  This action was taken by a joint resolution
of Congress.  Does anyone know the politics behind this action?

DAVE RAUSCH
U of Oklahoma
AA0279@UOKMVSA
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 07:47:58 MST
From:         Skip Knox <DUSKNOX@IDBSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: History and Films
              8 Apr 1992 12:44:00 EDT from <DA_AZIZ@ACAD.FANDM.EDU>

Deb Aziz identified several discrepancies in "They Died With Their Boots
On" that she called MAJOR.  Most of those facts were completely
unknown to me.  I recall the movie as a generic Hollywood Western with
nothing outstanding in either the acting or historical errors.

I still fail to see that anyone is "getting away" with anything.
Shakespeare's treatment of the York-Lancaster squabble was riddled with
distortions, many probably deliberate.  That doesn't keep it from being
great literature.  Reading the Henry cycle will tell you far more about
Elizabethan England and Mr. Shakespeare than it will about 15th century
England, just as the cited movie says more about Hollywood in the late
1950s (did I guess the date right?) than about General Custer.  This is
not bad, it's just the nature of story-telling.

Ellis "Skip" Knox       dusknox@idbsu.idbsu.edu
PC Coordinator & Faculty Computer Lab Supervisor
Professor of History
Boise State University  Boise, Idaho
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:21:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Historical films

 A classic of the 1930s is _The Last Days of Pompeii_, the film
version of Bulwer Lytton's novel of the same name. Bulwer Lytton
was a most popular novelist of the early nineteenth century, the
author of the most famous opening line in the English language,
and a mentor of the young Charles Dickens. _The Last Days of
Pompeii_ is his only novel that still is read at all today, and
it certainly is not in the "canon."

Has anyone seen that film?

For the nineteenth century, _The Wrong Box_ and _The Missionary_
are amusing and instructive. The latter relates to voluntary
societies for the reclamation of fallen women.

Two of the greatest propaganda films ever made are _Young Mr. Pitt_
and _Mrs. Miniver_. The former is a British-made historical film
about William Pitt the Younger, late 18th-century politics, and
the Napoleonic Wars; the film turns Pit into a Churchillian figure,
and carries the message that just as 150 years ago Britain stood
against a Continental colossus of despotism, so today.... The
latter is better known in the U.S.A.--it was aired on "The American
Movie Channel" a few months ago. Ironically, it is a US-made film,
but a superb piece of propaganda.

Finally, how about my favorite "pre-historical" film, _Quest for
Fire_?

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 09:55:00 CDT
From:         Dave Rausch <AA0279@UOKMVSA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Social History

I may be showing my ignorance about history (I am a political scientist), but
can't all history be considered "social history?"

Then again, here at the University of Oklahoma, there is a professor who
teaches the history of Modern Europe without spending more than one week of
a 15 week semester on armed conflict.

DAVE RAUSCH
U of Oklahoma
AA0279@UOKMVSA
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 07:15:00 CST
From:         TBMEGA@STTHOMAS.EDU
Subject:      History List
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU

TELL LISTSERV AT RUTVM1 SIGNOFF HISTORY
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:51:15 EDT
From:         "Gary L. Hewitt" <GLHEWITT@PUCC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: the social history list

I am interested in the social history mailing list -- the traffic on
HISTORY is too much for me to keep up with....

Question: is there a way for me to subscribe from a non-BITNET machine?
I like all my mail in one place, you see.  Thanks for any help.

Also: Rich Rath (rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu) expressed some interest
on soc.history (Usenet) about social history -- maybe you could get
in touch with him....

Gary
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 18:01:54 -0400
From:         ICJME@ASUACAD.BITNET
Subject:      For Jim Emmons at ASU

 *** Reply to note of 04/06/92 14:47
 Oops! I am sorry - I sent that last message to the list instead of just to
 Joe. Please forgive me.

 Enjoy!
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 92 23:27:21 EDT
Reply-To:     History <HISTORY@IRLEARN>
From:         Ed Haupt <haupt@PILOT.NJIN.NET>
Subject:      Re: Films & History
Comments: To: History <HISTORY@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu>


Grand Illusion is a wonderful movie.  There are elements that seem to me
very much cooked for dramatic purposes and some that seem very right.  One
small bit that seems very right is the aristocratic french officer who has
never referred to his wife by her first name.  The German officer, who acts
out his Teutonic knights heritage by playing the aviator/knight seems to me
to be barely possible.  I'm sure there was a sense that some aristoctratic
officers shared that harked back to chivalry.  For most, I expect war was
awful work with no chance of knightly regard for your opponent.
	The end, in which the widow of the German soldier killed at Verdun
(which must have been taken somewhat sourly in France) forms an alliance with
the enlisted French pilot seems romanticized.  Oh, well, you probably had
to be there...
	Ed Haupt
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 10:38:51 EDT
From:         Michael Cammer <cammer@AECOM.YU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: History through Films
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              KERSTETTER" at Apr 5, 92 7:47 pm

PETER KERSTETTER writes:
>
> What are some people's view on the film _The Seventh Seal_?  Besides Ingmar
> Bergman playing with Death, is this film a good picture of how Medieval
> life probably was?  I enjoyed the film, and thought it to be one of the
> best films I have ever seen.  It seems to me that life back then is not
> too different from life today.  Then, they worried about catching the
> Black Death, today, we worry about diseases just as deadly, with people
> telling us that it is a curse from God.
>
_The Seventh Seal_ is a tour de force filmmaker's film.  Also, it
is a hilarious laugh out loud existential comedy.  It is truly fantastic,
but not historical; it is a twentieth century consciousness on a
Medieval stage.

The question about historical accuracy in films may be somewhat off the
mark.  The films we have chosen to discuss are commercial or artistic;
even when the producers/directors hire historians, they take artistic
or formulaic (for marketing purposes) liberties, and the way films are
constructed precludes historical accuracy.  Films, even documentries,
are fictional constructs.  We, for practical reasons, accept documentaries
as fact-- but it is perverse to talk of the historical accuracy in a film
about Lancelot and Arthur battling over a perfect woman.

How about _Apolcalypse Now_?   It is a historically accurate account
of the Vietnam War.  It is a cinematic version of
a novel about sexuality, barbarity, and
imperialism.  It is one of the most compelling works of art I have ever
witnessed in a theater.  It is at once great history, great fiction,
and great art; the categories are not mutually exclusive.

Now let's look at _Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe_.  It is unabashedly
a play, a stage drama.  It is a crazy constructed story.  It is about
its mediums, cinema:  acting and dircting.  But it is
also a poignant slice of real American life.

We need to re-evaluate the assumptions we have about historically accuracy
in film.  Especially where the films themselves may be history.

Michael Cammer



--
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 07:52:45 MST
From:         Skip Knox <DUSKNOX@IDBSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Historical inaccurate films

Lynn makes an excellent point about the demands of a film, a point that
applies equally well to historical fiction:  The author is a modern
author telling a story to a modern audience.  That story had bloody well
be a modern plot or the audience will quickly leave the theatre or close
the book.  But modern plot devices, characterization and other story-
telling elements are, well, modern.  Story-telling in the Middle Ages
is rather noticeably different.

One level of historical accuracy involves costuming and such.  In these
matters we could come close but why would we want to?  Why subject the
poor actors to that scratchy wool and those wretched shoes?  But in
any case, the hero, were he to behave "medievally" would not be heroic
in modern eyes and the storyline itself, were it medieval, would bore
modern viewers to distraction.

I'll take Flynn's Robin Hood any day.  It made no pretense save to tell
a fine story set in the past and in this it succeeded.  And while The
Name of the Rose may have been historically accurate, I found the book
painfully slow (Eco deliberately used a medieval story-telling line) and
in both the book and the movie I was put off by the too-obvious Watson
and Holmes schtick of the protagonists.  Talk about anachronisms!  Only
Connery's superior acting saved the movie, IMHO.

Ellis "Skip" Knox       dusknox@idbsu.idbsu.edu
PC Coordinator & Faculty Computer Lab Supervisor
Professor of History
Boise State University  Boise, Idaho
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 15:25:35 PDT
From:         "Robert B. Pasker" <rbp@SUTRO.SFSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Social History
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.princeton.edu
              92 9:55 am

> I may be showing my ignorance about history (I am a political scientist), but
> can't all history be considered "social history?"

social history, often called "the new social history," is often
roughly distinguished by two differences:

(1) methodology: lots of demographics, literature as history,
archeology, anthropology (particularly material culture), psychology
(but please don't ask me how i feel about fawn brodie), etc.

(2) focus: rather than what piece of land was being fought over, a
social historian might try to understand the effects of a war on the
soldiers and their families, and its future effects on peoples
interations with each other.  the emphasis is not on presidents and
kings, popes and generals, but on families, workers, economic
relationships (master/slave, lord/peasant, employee/employer, etc.)
social historians care less about how elites live and more about how
all people fit into their culture.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 08:40:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: films & history

On Fri, 10 Apr 1992 08:14:49 EDT Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET> said:
> >                                                                        k.
> To which I can only reply that after reading the Bronte's, Eliot, Trollope,
> Dickens, and Hardy, I think I have the *flavor* of the times. . . but I'm
> deuced if I can see how my *historical understanding* of them has improved one
> whit.  (All right, one whit--but surely not two)  O well, to each his/her own.

Let's take some concrete examples. Compare Dickens' passage on
'ecclesiastical dandyism' in _Bleak House_, which is an attack on
Anglo-Catholicism, with the passage in Margaret Oliphant's _The
Perpetual Curate_ on the curate Frank Wentworth,
where Oliphant challenges the image of dandyism and dilletantism
making Wentworth the only figure who truly understands the needs
and lives of Carlingford's poor. Later in the novel, Oliphant
focuses on the turmoil caused by Wentworth's brother's decision
to convert to Roman Catholicism--but she tells the story from
the viewpoint of the wife, and of how her husband's change of faith
will affect _her_. Much has been written in both fiction and
history about the Oxford Converts, but Oliphant's woman's
perspective adds an important nuance.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 09:10:56 EDT
From:         Michael Cammer <cammer@AECOM.YU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Grant the Incompetent
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              8, 92 8:49 am

Jim Cocks writes:
>
> >Isn't it true that one of the central formative characteristics of our
 current
> >President is -- loyalty to old friends?
>
> Yep, and the previous one too.  Maybe I ought to prepare myself for tombs to
> Reagan and Bush.  They would of course be memorials to the great Grenadan
> War and the Great War to Reseat the Emir of Kuwait.   Todays delusions and
> fantasies are tomorrows realities :-)
>
>  Jim Cocks
>
Reagan, Bush, Nixon prefer archives and libraries of their materials which
have been expurgated or or kept locked up so that nobody can read/hear/see
them.
Michael Cammer

--
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 08:59:32 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: films & history

On Fri, 10 Apr 1992 08:40:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
>
>Let's take some concrete examples. Compare Dickens' passage on
>'ecclesiastical dandyism' in _Bleak House_, which is an attack on
>Anglo-Catholicism, with the passage in Margaret Oliphant's _The
>Perpetual Curate_ on the curate Frank Wentworth,

Let's by all means.  Provide the text.  Quote it.  At least give page number
and edition.  Then show that the point is unique to THIS time and not some
more general argument non-specific to any one time.  For that matter,
distinguish clearly between the time the story is set in and the time the
author is writing it.  You have me at a disadvantage today; at work I have no
access to books & little prospect for getting any over the weekend, but if you
have something specific in mind, it is probably right at your hand.
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