HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Handgun Ammunition Debate   (Marshall's Cooked Books)
Date: 6 Oct 92 19:39:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucsu.199210061609.AA00610
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Oct4.171225.10691@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#	This would certainly not eliminate the bias in Marshall's data
#collection, but it would bring his "percentage" to closer correlate
#the "what will happen if a person gets shot with this round"
#that his "stopping percentage" is _not_.

#Of all his data, the categories are:

#a)	one shot failure to stop,
#b)	one shot stop
#c)	multi shot failure to stop
#d)	multi shot stop

#Marshall disgards c and d, using b as a percentage of (a+b) as
#his "stopping percentage".

#However, as c is obviously as bad, or worse than a, one must
#include c.  b given as a percentage of (a+b+c) would certainly
#be a more realistic "stopping percentage" than merely using (a+b).

However, if multi-shot events are considered, then multi-event
_sucesses_ are also relevant. If the data for multipule shots
is available as a function of number of shots, I'd suggest the
following: Assume stopping percent is linear, so if a round is
f% likely to fail to stop on the first shot, it is f^2% likely
to fail on the second, f^3% on the third, etc... This assumption
is, of course, incorrect. But the error it introduces is likely to
be less than that caused by throwing out multi-shot events. Given
this assumption, it is possible to caluclate stop percentages using
_all_ of the data: let S(n) be the number of stops after n hits and
F(n) be the number of failures to stop after n hits. Then f(n), the
failure to stop percentage per shot given n hits, is given by
f(n) = ( F(n)/( S(n) + F(n) ) )^(1/n). By the assumption of linearity,
f(n) = f(m) for all n,m. So this immediately gives a test for the
accuracy of the assumption: How constant is f(n). Assuming it is 
reasonably constant, a stop percentage per shot could be calculated
by taking a weighted average of f(n). That is,

"One shot stop" = 1 - f = 1 - (1/N) * Sum(n=1 to N) of [f(n)*(S(n) + F(n))]

                                                   Frank Crary
                                                   CU Boulder
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Finish on Smith & Wesson
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:30:23 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

I was looking at a Smith & Wesson .22 revolver the other day. It had 
neither a blued nor a stainless steel finish. Instead, its surface
was of a flat grey color, with a slightly rough texture. Has anyone
seen this sort of thing, or know anything about it?

                                           Frank Crary
                                           CU Boulder
From: cjp@megatek.com (Chris "Systems Stud" Pikus)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hoppe's 9 & cleaning fluids
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:21:54 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

# #Jeff Sturgess (stur@TIS.COM) writes:
# ##Does anybody have any facts as to
# ##whether or not the use of Hoppe's 9 is a health risk?   Thank you. 
# #
# Dan Sorenson (viking@iastate.edu) writes:

# #	You might write to Penguin Industries (the manufacturers) and
# #request a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) -- they are required to send
# #you one under Federal OSHA regulations (since you're a concerned citizen).
# 

#From article <199210021646.AA11523@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>,
	by rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson):
# If somebody does this, maybe typing in a summary would be a good idea.  I
# for one would be interested in more information, since I _do_ inhale a fair
# bit of the stuff, and soak my fingers pretty regularly.  (occasionally the
# carpet, too)
# 
# --Rob Cuthbertson, rob@spot.Colorado.EDU

  You _inhale_ do you? Obviously you don't intend to run for President.
	:-) for the humor impaired.

-- 
Christopher J. Pikus,        | "Forgive me for not knowing about El Salvador. 
Megatek Corp., San Diego, CA | Like it's not like I'm ever going to go to Spain
INTERNET: cjp@megatek.com    | or anything."	  -- "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
From: pismobch@well.sf.ca.us (Ed Devinney)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: shooting with contacts
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:41:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: well.BvEE6B.Bp4
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

FWIW, I wear glasses when shooting because I've noticed that my contacts
tend to 'swim' just a little - not so much to notice in regular use, but
it does show up when shooting.  Also, I have astigmatism, and the lenses 
are weighted to stay vertical; this is problematic when one's head moves
off axis...

Glasses are not perfect, but at least I can frob them around to get a good
seating on my face.

-- 
ed devinney						pismobch@well.sf.ca.us
	"I don't know what the world may need, 
	 but a V8 engine's a good start for me..." - Cracker
From: messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm: Which *not* to buy?
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:04:04 GMT
Organization: Messina Software

alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel) writes:

#Unfortunately, I found the Glock to be very uncomfortable and
#inaccurate in my hands.  The blocky shape of the grip hit my hand in
#all the wrong places, causing considerable grief.  It just didn't feel
#right.  Since my hands are not large, I can only assume that my poor
#experience with the Glock was related to hand size, and that a person
#with larger hands would have had no trouble.

I totally agree with Alan that a person with larger hands would have
no trouble  :-)
I think it is a handgun for people with somewhat larger paws (like so 
many of the semis today), but it fits them perfectly.  For me it was
the best handling gun I shot ever (I am talking about Glock 21), with
almost no noticeable recoil (well, that maybe stretching it a bit) and
wonderful accuracy.
Point of it?  Alan is right, you have to try the gun out before even making
up a list of those you want or do not want to buy.  I think handling is
more important that any writeup on features you may have read.  I was
in love with 1911 until I tried it.  I hated Glock until I shot it.
Amazing what a few hours at a range will do to your prejudices...

t.
From: U53734%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Wesley Bielinski)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: sniper rifle in 'Navy seals' movie?
Date: 6 Oct 92 19:40:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: uicvm.92280.121704U53734
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

I love movies, too bad they're unrealistic.  The weapon is real, the effects
of the round were unreal and the scope was pure SF (that is, Science Fiction).

Wesley J. Bielinski                    | "I love my country,
SGT, USAR       U53734@uicvm.uic.edu   |   it's my government I fear!"
12th Special Forces Group (Airborne)   |
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From: kb13+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ken Burner)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Concealed Weapons Permit ( again.... )
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:41:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.0emQ3KK00Uzx41uo8N

On 30 Sep 92 01:57:36 GMT, kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:

#As a side question, if I do put my loaded pistol ( Beretta -- Hey! Defend your
#life with style!! :) in my car and get stopped by a cop for traffic
violations,
#what are the good excuses to tell him/her about why do I have a loaded 
#shinning beautiful pistol in my car? Thanks again.

I hope you're not thinking of leaving the pistol in your car.  Car theft
in Boulder must be as popular as it is elsewhere in this country.  You
don't want to lose your car AND your shiny weapon...

    -Ken Burner
     Carnegie Mellon Computing Services
From: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Paul Eric Stoufflet)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .308 PISTOL
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:13:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Sep30.174138.9923
Organization: Columbia University

In article <1992Sep29.141914.8917@ke4zv.uucp> wa4mei!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#The BATF has all sorts of strange rules about what constitutes a pistol
#and what constitutes a rifle. They even tried to enforce a provision 
#that it was illegal to make a rifle out of a pistol by adding a long
#barrel and shoulder stock. The Thompson Center case finally put an end 
#to that nonsense. You still can't legally convert the other way without 
#following the stricter pistol manufacturing rules however. You've got

Is this literally enforced?  IE; if one has a T/C pistol, and puts the
long barrel and stock (in that order) on the receiver, one cannot then
remove the stock and long barrel (again in that order) to restore the
T/C to its original state?

Just how anal is the BATF anyway?
Followup to t.p.g

[MODERATOR: Well... pretty anal.  But as Paul says, let's take that off
to talk.politics.guns, or offline....]

  / \ / \     Paul Stoufflet                          / \ / \
 |  / \  |    Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center   |  / \  |
 |  \ /  |    internet: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu  |  \ /  |
  \_/_\_/     All opinions are my own                 \_/_\_/
From: toby@carson.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifling Twist Angles - stability
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:41:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Sep30.151911.24878
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <30SEP199208590643@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov> smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:
#toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) writes...
##... 
##About the only way to get a higher BC without going to a longer
##bullet (assuming the form factors are already pretty good) is
##to go to a larger caliber.  Maybe that's why some hunter class
##shooters are using those Speedy Gonzales 110gr match bullets
##in their short .308 cases...with S-L-O-W twists (like 1:16).
#
#I thought that BC is proportional to mass/drag and going to larger but 
#relatively light bullets would increase drag faster than mass and therefore
#decrease BC.
#


BC is some function of sectional density (squared, I think)*form
factor.  I'm mostly thinking of bullets that require approximately
equal twist rates for minimum stability in benchrest, like 1:14
for 52gr .224 as well as 125gr .308.  The 125gr .308 will have
a BC about 0.100 higher than the .224, which makes a difference
in wind-bucking :)  and recoil  :(

Toby Bradshaw
Department of Biochemistry and College of Forest Resources
University of Washington, Seattle
toby@u.washington.edu

"A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of
a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall
not be infringed."  Should speed reading courses be restricted
to police and military to prevent "assault reading" by citizens?
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W Help Sought
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:56:44 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <1992Sep27.132956.29775@ke4zv.uucp> wa4mei!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
...
#Since the Glock system gives you, in practice, the exact same safety
#as a transfer bar equipped revolver, and most people have little concern
#about holster carrying loaded revolvers, I fail to see the issue. *If*
#you are terrified of carrying a loaded revolver, *then* I can see that
#the Glock is not for you. The Glock was designed to be a revolver 
#replacement with more firepower for police and personal defense use.
#Manual safeties are not popular on revolvers, so there isn't one on
#the Glock either.

Yes, but there's one crucial difference between the Glock and a double
action revolver (or DA autoloader)--the trigger pull required to fire the
piece is much shorter for the Glock (also lighter, unless you go to the
"New York" trigger). The apprehensions about the safety of the Glock center
around this fact: it is simply easier to accidently let off a shot with a
Glock by unintentionally squeezing the trigger than it is with an uncocked
DA revolver or auto. To my mind, these apprehensions are justified.

Sure--you're not _supposed_ to put your finger on the trigger unless you're
intending to fire--but people do things they're not supposed to do
sometimes. Apparently, Gaston Glock was unaware of this.
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: asdch@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: S&W 629 barrel length question. How to measur
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:03:31 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska


	I currently own a model 629 stainless Smith and Wesson .44 Magnum
and am not sure how to measure the barrel length.  When I measure it from
the front of the frame I get exactly 5 inches, when I measure from right in
front of the cylinder, I get 5 7/8 inches.  Which is correct?  Does this gun
have a 5 or a 6-inch barrel?  Thanks, and happy shooting.  Dave.
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W Help Sought
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:39:10 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <9209261635.AA29291@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> rnoguchi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Ryan Alexander Noguchi) writes:
#Exactly.  But there's more to a gun, even a Glock, than its operating
#system...
#...feel
#uncomfortable with one of its features, namely the "Safe Action,"
#basically single-action-only or double-action-only in practice
#(depending on its trigger pull weight).
#...It'd certainly ease a lot of minds unaccustomed
#to the thought of holstering  what essentially acts as a Condition
#Zero piece.  If I recall correctly, this was Massad Ayoob's only beef
#with the Glock.

In these respects, how is a Glock different from a revolver? (Which 
I notice _many_ police officers holstering with perfectly easy minds.)

                                             Frank Crary
                                             CU Boulder
From: jimfost@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Jim Foster)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Energy
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:04:07 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University

hlose@usho99.hou281.chevron.com (B.A.Losee) writes:


#Does anybody out there in netland have ready access to figures on kinetic energy
#in foot-pounds for a large caliber rifle, such as the .458 magnum? Thanks in
#advance.

According to _Cartriges of the World_ (5th ed.) the Winchester .458 produces muzzle energies ranging from 1470 ft-lbs. to 5140 ft-lbs. depending on the loading.

If you'd like more specifics (corresponding bullet and powder wieghts) let me know.



--"Awlright....I'll *give* you another bullet....but you've got to promise me
   you'll keep it in your shirt pocket from now on!"

-- 
Jim Foster                [        The stars are right... Cthulhu in '92!     ]
jimfost@matt.ksu.ksu.edu  [       "Why choose the lesser of three evils?"     ]
Kansas State University   [                                                   ]
From: messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock doesn't *need* a safety (Re: .40 S&W Help Sought)
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:45:39 GMT
Organization: Messina Software

rnoguchi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Ryan Alexander Noguchi) writes:

#Under stress, when performing a gross motor action like holstering, the
#~6 lb trigger of the Glock would not be noticeably different from the 
#8-9 lb trigger of normal DAO's, which I had no problem with.  And the

In fact, you can order Glock with different trigger pulls.  I believe
that 8.5 lb is available.  Check with your local friendly dealer.

t.
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Old Astra Pistol Info
Date: 30 Sep 92 13:23:21 GMT

#juan esperanza y pedro unceta-guernica (Espana)
#cal 7.65 pistola automatica patentada
#Atras Mod 1915

#     I would like an estimate of its value.

Can't help you with your other questions, but here's the values
as listed in the Blue Book:

100%   98%   95%   90%   80%   70%   60%
$275   200   165   135   115   100   85

Rob
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W Help Sought
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:03:02 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1992Oct2.163801.11217@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#What I don't like about the glock is the fact that you don't get a
#second chance on a misfire.

Just as much as with an M1911A1 -- you rack the slide to chamber another
round.  Certainly, with a revolver one merely goes through the same
motions for each shot whether or not the previous one actually fired,
but jam (much more probable than ignition failure) recovery should be a
standard part of one's semiautomatic pistol training.  Revolvers can also
fail in mysterious ways, for example when a cartridge is not fully seated
in the cylinder and prevents the cylinder from rotating..
From: kunz@avalon.physik.unizh.ch (kunz peter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Holsters
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:57:58 GMT
Organization: Informatik Club Uni Zurich

In article <9209210704.AA17092@hpfcso.HP.COM> post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post) writes:
#Perhaps I am Naive on these things.
#
#Why is it that anyone would make a holster with a cut-out around the trigger
#guard, exposing the trigger?  Many holsters don't just have a cutout, they
#are fully relieved.  This is done on purpose.
#

speed and a better grip on the gun, i'd say...

cu
-pete


-- 
Peter J. Kunz		Home:		(+41) 061 721 75 56 (Weekends)
P.O. Box 315		Business:	(+41) 01  261 35 74 (Weekdays)
4106 Therwil		Fax:		(+41) 061 324 71 88
Switzerland		E-Mail:		pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: shooting with contacts
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:30:29 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <3101@voodoo.UUCP> voodoo!tomm@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Tom Mackey) writes:
#I was out sighting in some rifles yesterday and noticed after an hour or
#so that I was having a lot of trouble keeping both the scope hairs and
#the target in good focus.

Something must be wrong with your scope.  The reticle should be exactly in
the virtual image focal plane at reasonable distances, so both the target
image and the reticle (crosshairs, red dot, whatever) should be in focus
simultaneously.  Is there any adjustment for this?

#Also, while sighting with both eyes open, eventhough my right eye is
#normally dominant, I would catch myself using my left eye.

This is a natural consequence of the focal-plane problem.
From: pnr0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PAUL N. RITTER)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted:  CC
Date: 27 Sep 92 11:28:10 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1992Sep26.212735.22781@ncsu.edu>, hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaf
fer) writes:
#In article <Bv5Lu1.Mr4@mail.boi.hp.com> kmarko@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Kurt Marko)
writes:
##In article > kmarko@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Kurt Marko) writes:
## ...  I'd like to get another
###handgun to do double duty as both highly portable weapon suitable for
###concealed carry, defense use; yet also be somewhat fun and accurate to
###shoot on the range.  I hope these aren't conflicting desires.   ...

  I have heard about a *NEW* auto coming from Coonan Arms. Actually, it's an
  older idea with a new package. The new gun is a Coonan Arms .357 Mag
  COMPACT! Although I don't have any significant info on it, I believe it
  holds 8+1 ==>single action style auto (cocked & locked). If anyone can
  contribute or correct this, please post it.
  ==========================================================================
  "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."   --unknown author.

                                       Paul Ritter
  ===========================================================================
From: biocca@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Alan K Biocca)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Handgun Scopes
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:45:44 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <9210011748.AA10696@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU> C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:

 >I will be acquiring a .44 Magnum revolver in the near future that
 >I intend to use for deer hunting.

 >What scope would you recommend?  The last scope I had was on a
 >.44 Magnum Contender, but it self-destructed after a few hot loads.
 >Are today's scopes built to take more punishment?

I've punished leupold and tasco pistol scopes on my Contender - with
357 maximum and 7mm TC/U with no problems.  44 Mag shouldn't be a
problem - the JDJ cartridges recoil more and some scopes hold up
well.  What scope did you damage?

Alan K Biocca
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Are there restrictions on carry in public places
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:56:40 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <199209281440.AA21774@tbird.cc.bellcore.com> sykes@donner.cc.bellcore.com (sykes,michael) writes:
#Hello,
#
#This is my first post so please be gentle : ) !
#
#Question: 
#
#If you have been granted a permit to carry concealed weapons are there
#any places that you are not allowed to carry at all. (e.g. public places
#such as malls, sports arenas, etc.) I would figure the police would 
#give you such a hard time you might as well leave your weapon at home.

There are several types of limitations :

(a) Federal Law

    Post Offices; Federal Buildings

(b) State Law

    Most states ban CCW on school grounds (public & private) without 
    written permission of the school (even for permit holders).

    Some states ban CCW in any establishment licensed to sell alcohol
    by the drink (ex: NM).  Maine, for example, adds the force of law
    to any ban or restriction on CCW imposed by a bar, provided a sign
    is posted.

    Most states ban carry in state courthouses.

(c) Private regulations

    With rare exception these don't carry the force of law, but may subject
    you do dismissal from the premises; termination from employment if at
    work; etc.


#
#I have a CCW permit and I was wondering if I am justified in being a litte

What state?

#aprehensive about carrying in a public place, or am I overreacting.

You should be OK as long as you don't violate any statuatory restrictions
imposed by your state, and also behave in a responsible manner (causing
public alarm by poor concealment is considered by many to be irresponsible).

#
#Sorry if this is a FAQ or irrevalent to this group.
#
#Michael
From: davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Children and toy guns...
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:30:05 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

My wife is a 2nd grade teacher at a rural school. Apparently, last weekend
some kids (aged 5, 7, and 8) "accidently" broke one of the school's windows
while playing ball on the school grounds. Since the window was already
broken, they decided to go in and explore, setting off the school's (silent)
alarm. The police arrived and, in the darkened hallways, one child (the 7
year old) was brandishing a toy cap gun. According to the cop, he came within
1/4 second of shooting when the boy turned and (unknowingly) pointed the gun
at the cop. Self-restraint on the officer's part, however, saved the boy's
life.

I've already decided that my (future) children will not own toy guns that
look anything like real guns. There are guns and there are toys and they
are separate things. I would never dream of telling anyone how to raise their
kids (especially since I'm not a parent yet), but I just thought I'd relate 
this story as food for thought.

	...Dave

----
Microsoft wouldn't even _think_ of hiring me as a spokesperson...