From: brown@NCoast.ORG (Stan Brown)
Subject: Re: Arguing people out of suicide (was Re: Christmas comes but once a year)
Organization: Oak Road Systems, Cleveland Ohio USA
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 19:00:49 GMT

In article <85842@ut-emx.uucp> llama@tramp.cc.utexas.edu (sine nomine) writes:
>
>the assumption here and in the rest of this argument is that all
>emotional pain is incurable, or that years of trying to cure
>poorly-understood emotional pain with the help of people who might not
>have been idea for this sort of thing mean that that pain will never
>be cured. that's nuts. that's like saying that because some people die
>of pneumonia, and some treatments for pneumonia fail, and sometimes
>people get complications from pneumonia, people with pneumonia can
>never be made well.

Where do I begin?

First, I never said or implied that all emotional pain is incurable.  In
fact I believe that much of it is curable.  My point, which may perhaps
not have been stated clearly enough, is that there _is_ such a thing as
incurable emotional distress, just as incurable physical distress; and
that it is for the victim of such distress to decide when enough is enough.

Second, I cannot subscribe to your tolerant, forgiving attitude toward
therapists.  I might be more kindly inclined if I'd ever heard of one of
them saying, "I'm sorry, I can't help you, so I'm not going to sit here
and take your money hour after hour."  (*) When a doctor prescribes
medication and the patient takes it, but it doesn't work, it is not the
patient's fault.  But when a patient goes for therapy, works as hard as
he or she can and follows the instructions of the therapist, it's
to be the patient's fault for not getting better?  I don't buy it.

(*) I don't mean to imply that all therapists are worthless or
unscrupulous.  Though many people have not been helped by therapy, a
great many have been.

Third, in pneumonia you pick a bad example, because as you rightly
point out, few cases are incurable.

Fourth, you say that "years" of trying are not enough.  How much is
enough, pray tell?  Surely you must admit that there is _some_ point at
which one must admit that no more progress is going to be made.  Or
would you have us unable to learn from experience?

>another issue her eis that of self-diagnosing a terminal illness. you
>wouldn't do it with cancer. why do it with psychological pain?

If I had cancer, and went to half a dozen oncologists (in succession,
not at the same time), and went along with all the procedures they
wanted to try, and not one of them even kept the tumors from growing, I
think it would be a fair inference that the cancer was incurable.  Someone
in a similar situation psychologically is, I think, quite justified in
making a similar inference.

>i'm not meaning to preach or sound happy and chirpy. i've been there
>(from both sides; i was a suicide hotline counselor for a while and
>then a couple years later tried to off myself). i know it sucks and
>it's awful and everything weighs a ton and it doesn't seem like it's
>ever going to change or get better. and it might never change or get
>better. there's no way to know, there really isn't. but until you take
>control of your life (and if you don't have the energy or the skills
>to do it right now, then it's cool to get help supporting yourself
>where you are until you do have the energy and skills) and make
>changes and see whether or not they help the pain, you have no
>justification for assuming that it's always going to be this bad or
>worse. it goes both ways -- it's stupid to say "it's all going to be
>all right," but it's equally atupid to say, "it's never going to be
>any better than this."

You are assuming, here and in the rest of your article, that your
experience can be generalized to others.  In fact, it will be true for
some and false for others.  I'm delighted for you that you feel you got
past a crisis point in your life.  But that does not entitle you to
assume that others can necessarily do what you did.  Circumstances may
be different, the nature or causes of the distress may be different,
luck or fate or the gods may play a part, whatever.

The quoted paragraph reminds me an awful lot of Clarence Thomas (I worked
hard and got myself out of poverty.  What's wrong with those other poor
people that they just sit on their butts.  If I could do it, they can
too.)  The fact of the matter is, not everyone can.

In any discussion of emotional matters, there's a tendency for each
participant to generalize, to assume that his or her experience shows a
path that everone could follow if they'd only _try_.  Such
generalizations are not only false but insulting: they assume that we
are all stamped out with cookie cutters and all have exactly the same
opportunities.  It ain't so.
-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems                      brown@Ncoast.ORG
Cleveland, Ohio, USA

What's a question that contains the word 'cantaloupe' for no apparent reason?
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday