From: naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski)
Subject: Re: Greek Macedonian writes about "Macedonia".
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 10:02:25 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science


In <6001@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>In article <9224720.5429@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
> 
>>   Firstly, Macedonians are not: Greek, Bulgarian, Serbia or
>>Albanian. No, we are none of these things, we are simply Macedonians.
>
>True. Macedonians are Macedonians because they feel so. This is a matter of
>national consciousness. However, there was no such ethnic group before WWI
>and nobody from these years had a "Macedonian" national consciousness. You
>and anybody else can find this for himself by opening ANY book (or
>encyclopaedia) published before 1920. Quite an easy task. In case your
>curiosity is a real one, I can post a list of books with which you can
>start and read them carefully. But notice that I speak about the years before
>1920 and not about 1992. Now there are people who have Macedonian national
>consciousness and they have the right to do so. However, NO SUCH
>NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS (i.e. Macedonian) EXISTED 70 years ago.

You are right, there was NO SUCH NATIONAL CONSIOUSNESS 70 years ago, but
let me tell you something about what my grand father and grand grand parents
have told me about the peoples (nations) in Macedonia before the WWI.
When I've asked my grand father who have lived in Macedonia before the
WWI he's said: "Risyani i Turci" ie. "Christians and Turks". They (here
I mean all of the people not just my relatives) have made no strong
differentiation at the first place. When I've further asked what he's
meant by this two words he's said: "Turci ne se samo Turcite, tuku
i Torbeshite i Arnautite" ie. "Turks are not just the Turks but also
Torbeshs (ie. Macedonian Muslims today) and Arnauts (ie. Albanians
today)". As you could see, they have called all of the muslims simply
Turks. And when I've asked who were the Christians, he's said:
"Bugarite, Grcite i nie Makjedoncite, a gore na sever i Srbite a ima i
drugi" ie. "Bulgars, Greeks and we MACEDONIANS, and to the North the
Serbs and there are also others".

I doubt you could find this in any book (however it is possible) and
I can tell you something else: in some villages even 20 years ago
you could here what I wrote above ie. people have made just 
difference between christians and muslims, at the first place,
and then yet the Jews.

One difference is in the name of the Macedonians, 70 years ago they
have called themselves (I'll try to write the pronounciation in the
style of the English) "Mackjedontsi" and we say "Mackedontsi",
and nothing more is changed. The old people in Macedonia today say
also "Makjedonci" and the others (younger, eg. usually we who are
born after 1945) say "Makedonci". If can remember me good, I think
I've told you that when my grany has served in the ex-ex-Yu army
they haven't called him Serbian, or something like that, but
MACEDONIAN (actually they have usually said him: "Where are you
a little Macedonian"). And if you read some books from that period
you could find "south Serbs", right?



> 
>>their views on their own past and destiny. Even worse you made no
>>attempt to interview ethnic Macedonians that live within the
>>borders of Greece, Bulgaria and Albania who would have left the
>>viewer in no doubt that we are a seperate and distinct ethnic
>>group who have been spiritually and physically divided by the
>>tragic partitioning of our fatherland at the treaty of Bucharest
>>10th of August 1913.
>
>It may be you who never made an attempt to find what Macedonians in
>other countries feel for themselves. Even more - there is a very interesting
>question to be asked: 'What happened with all Bulgarians (according
>to the International treaties, from Macedonia, after 1913? It's the place
>to mention that in no treaty one can find an ethnic "Macedonian" neither
>can one find such entry in any census before WWI. Are they all killed?
>Vanished? Why they disappeared? What happened to the Bulgarian churches
>and schools, which existed from the time of the Ottoman Empire in the land
>of Macedonia? Have you ever read a declaration from a Macedonian
>organization about the human rights violations abroad during the years
>before WWII? The obvious answer to this question is NO, but it's unclear WHY.

What happened to all Bulgarians after 1913? The Bulgarians (most of them)
have left Macedonia. Surprised? Maybe, but I do not claim this, because
I cannot give you a "proof" (ie. a book, or something else), but
instead I'll tell you this: The most Bulgarians from Ohrid have left
after the WWI, and many others after the WWII. I have friends in
Ohrid who know those people, and many of them today live in Sofia.
Many Bulagarins have left Macedonia toegether with the Bulgarian army in
1944, 1945, and some after that.
Being based on stories from outsiders who have never been at a place
you are talking about, or on stories written by somebody with
some political ideas with certain purposses, you couldn't know the truth.
Even today about what happens in YU, what do you think how much of the
things we hear (or see) are truth?  
I think there is a little truth, and most of it is just a propaganda.
But we should know that the truth is very, very painfull.

And now, I'm asking myself, what happened to all Macedonians after 1912?

>>to flee. Over the next five years virtually the entire
>>south-eastern area of Macedonia was depopulated of ethnic
>>Macedonians who were forced at gun point to abandon their homes,
>
>There was no such ethnic group in 1925. Check it for yourself and then
>think what and how to write articles.

And read above what have my grands told me who they were. What do you think,
if they have told me that I was something else, would I accept this what
I today am? And I'm not the one, there are hundreds of thousands like me.
Might be I would, as some people have done in Greece, and this happens in
all countries, for certain purposses, but I doubt in a short period of
time many people would do that.

[deleted]
>
>
>Luben
>

Regards,
Goce.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8432 soc.culture.greek:8340 soc.culture.europe:8017 talk.politics.misc:43273 soc.culture.bulgaria:1309 soc.culture.turkish:9606