From: grendel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alyosha Bourgea)
Subject: Re: Religious Freedom (Re: Gays in the Military..what nobody is talking about:)Summary:
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: 12 Dec 92 21:41:23 GMT

In <Bz3xtu.164@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) writes:

>>|In article <grendel.723788680@camelot> grendel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alyosha Bourgea) writes:

>>|>The purpose of school is to educate, and every
>>|>student, be they fundie, Muslim, pagan, Jewish, atheist, or indifferent,
>>|>should be allowed to pursue that goal in peace.  If students want to pray,
>>|>that is certainly their right; however, they should do it individually.

>Ah.  We agree on this.  You don't have a problem, then with my suggestion
>that we eliminate such things as sporting events from academia?
	
As far as I know, students are just as able to pursue their educational
goals, uninterrupted, if sporting events take place.  I'm not a sports fan,
but I had no problem with the sports programs at my school, because I never
had to go to any of the games.

>You wouldn't have a problem then with banning any type of cliques or
>peer-pressure groups from schools?

Yes, I would have a problem with this.  I would also have a problem with
banning a group of Christian students who regularly got together and scoffed
at atheist students.  That would be denying the Christians their right to
free speech.  Students can be as cliquey as they want; all I ask is that the
state, that is, the educational system as represented by their teacher, not
orchestrate any partisan activity in the course of education.

>One of the arguments against voluntary prayer that I hear over and over
>from the left is that those who do not participate may feel "left out"
>and therefore feel "ostracized" or somehow "inferior".  Poor babies.

When you're talking about children, I think this kind of cynicism is
pretty inappropriate.  The emotional consequences of orchestrated ostracism
when one is young can last a lifetime.

>You know what's funny about this?  If you ask a typical liberal what
>he/she thinks about home schooling, he/she will tell you that it's a
>bad idea because it keeps the child from learning about the real and
>tough world.  The child won't learn to "compete".

A typical liberal?

I don't know who you've been talking to, bub.

>I never hear anyone complaining when for example:
>1.) A girl wants, with all of her heart, to be on the cheerleading
>    team, but because she is overweight or not popular, she doesn't
>    make it.
>    Doesn't she feel "left out" and "inferior"?

Sure, and that's too bad.  But cheerleading is different from education.
The girl can get a perfectly decent education without cheerleading.
Same with the example below.  Extracurricular activities are not as vital
as academic ones.  

>2.) A boy wants to be on the school basketball team, but darn it all,
>    he just isn't tall enough, or good enough, or fast enough.  He
>    doesn't make the team.

>    Again, don't you think he would feel "left out"?

>So, based on just the above two examples, shouldn't we ban these as well?

No.

>"Ah, but Jim, Jim, Jim" you say, shaking your head from side to side,
>"There is no constitutional separation of sports and state".
>Bullcrap.  This whole prayer thing has little or nothing to do with
>separation of church and state, and everything to do with the fact that
>the left is _afraid_ of anything which even hints of "values".

It has everything to do with the separation of church and state; it's all
about whether or not morality should be taught alongside academics.  If
you believe in the separation of church and state, you say no.  If you want
your kid to learn moral precepts (and believe it or not, many liberal
parents do) then send them to Sunday school, or, better yet, teach them
yourself.  Morality is something no teacher can offer with absolute
authority, because there's bound to be a parent who disagrees.  Academics,
on the other hand, is something that parents cannot disagree with, because
it's fact, not belief.

"The left", if I may speak for a group, is not afraid of "values", whatever
that means; just the forcing of certain values on people who may not
believe them.

>>|You apparently believe that this is true.  Let me attempt to convince you 
>>|that it is not.  A blind, grade-school girl was quietly praying her rosary 
>>|beads on the school bus.  The bus driver took them away and the school 
>>|forbade her from praying the rosary (even quietly) in public.
>> 
>>	Unfortunate.  And as far as I am concerned, the girl should not 
>>have been prevented from doing her chants.
>> 

>Sounds to me like that bus-driver needs a little "sensitivity training".

Sounds like.

>| Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu                              |
>|           dolmen!jgraham@moose.cs.indiana.edu                        |

--
Yosha Bourgea                   "Newspapers screamed for blood...
grendel@camelot.bradley.edu     it was the best of times."
Squid Power                              --Sting