HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:45:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 MR> From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
 MR> Date: 26 Jul 92 22:31:09 GMT
 MR> Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
 MR> Message-ID: <1992Jul26.225929.15795@samba.oit.unc.edu>
 MR> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
               -=> Quoting Malachi Robertson to All <=-
 MR> What are your views on the relation between ethnic Israel and the
 MR> church? 
             @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
             @ Gentile     @            @   @   @   From the Wild
    *********@***** Believ-@     <----  @\ /@\ /@   Olive Tree:
    *        @ MJ * ers    @             @ \ / @    non-Believing
    *        @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@                ||      Gentiles.
    *non-Believing*                         ||
    * Israel      *   The Gentile Church has been grafted in, now part
    ***************   of the "COMMONWEALTH" of Israel. Israel is still
                      Israel, and the Church is still the Church.  And
                      Messianic Jews are part of both Israel, {the
                      natural branches}, and the Congregation of G-d
                      the Body of Messiah, - which is made up of both
                      Believing Jews and Gentiles.

 *********************#*#*#*#*#*#*#*@#@#@#@#@#@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
 * non-Believing      *Believing      Believing@      non-Believing @
 * Israel             *Israel         Gentiles @      Gentiles      @
 *                    *                        @                    @
 *********************#*#*#*#*#*#*#*@#@#@#@#@#@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
            Or maybe this is a little better illustration.

... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210              
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From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Day of worship (was Re: It's the same Judaism)
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:37:28 GMT
Distribution: alt.messianic
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <1992Jul29.135258.12229@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>
>Well, I can't speak for any other denomination, but mine bases its
>decision to worship on Sunday firmly on the completed law-word of God,
>i.e., the Old + the New Testaments.
>
>-- 
>Tom Albrecht

Question 1:  How do you base worshipping on Sunday from the Old Testament?

Question 2:  Do you observe the seventh-day Sabbath?

"Malachi" Ian Robertson Brown


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: danl@col.hp.com (Daniel Lockhart)
Subject: Re: Dan. 9 (was: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:00:27 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

Just a self centered opinion, I don't see it proper to be preaching to a
2 year old.  I see two basis, first children are a blessing and a respon-
sibility for their parents.  "Raise up your children in the way of the 
L-rd and ...".  It is parents resp. to teach their children.  The second
basis would be that as children (physical and spirit) we are feed milk 
because we have not grown enough to handle meat (extremely paraphrased)

daniel

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: kmjoffe@acs.ucalgary.ca (Kenneth M. Joffe)
Subject: spelling
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 02:06:32 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

Sorry, I meant Hendrickson, not Henderickson.  Neither of the two
to be confused with Joffe.
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: knowing HaShem
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:51:20 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.150454.9446@col.hp.com> danl@col.hp.com (Daniel Lockhart) writes:
>strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
>> In article <l6p1pdINN5er@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
>> |> In article <9207212100.AA00728@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>> |> >Such an effort would be considerably more
>> |> >productive in fostering positive relations with Jews than conversion
>> |> >attempts.
>> |> 
>> |> Rob,
>> |> 	We (believers in Yeshua) are not interested in having "positive
>> |> relations" with you, as an end in itself.  What we are interested in is
>> |> having you come to know HaShem, and be saved from your sins.  Everything
>> |> else is secondary, and pales in importance to your eternal destiny.  But,
>> |> if having "positive relations" will be a means to further this important
>> |> end, then we're all for it.
>> |> 
>> I think that the above very frankly states what Messianic "Judaism" and all
>> similar evangelical movements are about.  You have only one goal ---
>> to convert us to Christianity.  Anything else you do is only
>> a means to that end.
>> 
>> That's why it's important for me to know who you all are
>> so that my children are safe from you until they reach
>> an age when they understand who you are and what you
>> are trying to do.  It's why my 7-year-old child is not allowed
>> to take a walk alone with her aunt and uncle.
>> -- 
>Just an outsider's point of view Rob, I see it as someone trying to let you
>know that the bridge is out up ahead.  If you want to drive off the end, that's
>your decision.  
>
>Daniel
>


No, the analogy is backwards.  Rob is trying to find out who has
attempted to sabotage the brakes, removed the Bridge out sign, and
tried to post a detour sign pointing to the cliff.  He is in the
position of someone trying to use a good up to date map to avoid
the dangerous road.

____________________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz    |  Said the fox to the fish, join me ashore  |
| H_Markowitz@att.com |  So too is it with the Jews and the TORAH  |
|_____________________|____________________________________________|
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Dan. 9 (was: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
Organization: University of Turku
	<1992Jul27.144841.24701@watson.ibm.com>
	<LJMORLY.92Jul28163549@polaris.utu.fi>
Date: 29 Jul 92 12:50:25

I got some problems with my mainframe, and I thought I didn't get through
my msg:s concerning Dan. 9 so I posted it 3 times... Hope you got them.
Enjoy! :-)

- Laura
--
Lo-yishama od chamam b'artzech shod vashever bigvulayich vekarat
yeshuah (Yeshua) chomotayich ush'arayich t'hila.   -Isaiah 60:18

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can
understand it ?   - Jeremiah 17:9
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: It's the same Judaism
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:29:30 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <1992Jul20.213759.4080@news.eng.convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:
>
>As far as the Nazis go, they were like the Assyrians - killing and looting
>with unusual greed, ferocity, and cruelty - taking joy in it - and with
>special hatred for the Jews.  So I would think that God would be equally
>angry with them both.

Of course the one BIG distinction between the Assyrians/Babylonians/Romans
and the Nazis is that God NEVER predicted the punishment of Jews at the
hand of the Nazis.  Therefore, anyone who suggests that the Nazis were
special divine punishment are way off base.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: An open letter to Harvey
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:22:48 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

>Nope not at all.  Our People and their leaders rejected Yeshua as Messiah, 
>and the gentiles crucified Him...
 TA=>You are incorrect.  The Jews crucified their Messiah at the hands 
 TA=>of the
 TA=>Romans.  Please see Acts 2:36.

For a person who is intellectually dishonest i would not even attempt to 
answer this but you are such nudnik.  Yes what you have said is no more 
than what i have said.  The jews did not have the authority to crucify 
Jesus, and hence that was the reason that he was delivered by the 
determinate council, the sanhedrin to Pilate.  Peter's reference in Acts 
2:36, is the accusation that that generation did in fact determine to 
crucify the Holy One, and had they the authority they would have done so, 
but their actual role in the matter was to deliver him to Pilate.

Pilate a Roman, on the other hand was forwarned, and went against the 
warnings even though he found no fault in Jesus..  Hence the guilt lies 
with all of mankind, not just the jews.  your exegetics is appalling but so 
is your anti semitism.

We all have crucified the Holy One, for all of our sins were responsible 
for the sacrifice of Messiah and His atonement.

Remember the words of Yeshua, " I lay down my life myself, and i take it up 
again, No man takes my life from me".  Hence, the L-rd could have called 
ten thousands of angels, but instead was obedient to the Father, and died 
the death to redeem all the world.

Now Tom before i continue in any more posting with you, MJ's deserve an 
apology, for you attempting to place them in a bad light, with doctrinal 
statements of your own making, and not those of MJ's.  Second, i want to 
know your denominational affiliation, as that will speak loudly your 
perspective and where it is coming from..

thank You. 


--  
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Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Distribution: alt.messianic
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:00:13 GMT

Tom:  What exactly is a reconstructionist?  I have heard this term used
before but in ways I don't think the author of the article you posted used it.

"Malachi" Ian Robertson Brown



--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Introduction And Questions
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:04:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


         -=> Quoting Malachi Robertson to All <=-
 MR> From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
 MR> Date: 21 Jul 92 17:12:06 GMT
 MR> Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
 MR> Message-ID: <1992Jul21.171206.19155@samba.oit.unc.edu>
 MR> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 MR> --What is the MJs view of what will occur during the Millenium?
      Basically the same as the Baptist, AoG, and Orthodox Judaism;
      that Messiah will reign over the Nations with a rod of iron from
      Yerushalayim.
 MR> --Do MJs believe that Jesus will conduct the antitypical Day of
 MR> Atonement just as he is conducting the antitypical daily
 MR> sacrifices?
      The Prince, as mentioned in Tanakh, being Messiah; will re-
      establish the Temple Ordinances, as we see Tanakh declare.
 MR> --Do MJs view the Sabbath as a binding commandment
 MR> upon all humanity?
      The Shabbat is a gift to all mankind; since the creation
      account :-)  Specific "keepings" of the Shabbat, were only
      given to the Y'hudim; however, the Shabbat will be observed
      by all the peoples of the earth during Messiah's reign; as
      again, is declared in the Prophets in Tanakh/[Older Covenant to
      you.]
 MR> --Do MJs see any sanctity in Sunday, the day that many Christians
 MR> view as a rest day?
      The principle and the reason for their sanctity.  But it is only
      the first day of the week, NOT the Shabbat.  We should keep
      every day unto HaShem/[Tetragrammaton] btw :-)
 MR> --What are the MJ views concerning what happens after death?
      To be absent from the body is the be present with the L-rd;
      speaking of the spirit of regenerated man.  The body & soul
      sleep awaiting the Day of the Resurrection and Judgement.
 MR> --Do the MJs have any views concerning the apocalyptic prophecies
 MR> of Daniel and Revelation?
      The senerio is about the same as Baptist, AoG, and Rabbinic lit.,
      as to the the time of Ya'akov's trouble, the final battle; etc...
 {These answers are brief; and don't completely answer the questions}
 
... 012 Sh'ma Yisrael: HaShem - El*hienu - HaShem ECHAD! ... 210            
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Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: It's the same Judaism
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 17:00:58 -0400

Steve Warren writes:

> ...  As I explained in my earlier note, if God
> wanted the man to be totally destroyed, He would not allow a Christian to
> be in a position to help him.  By allowing a Christian to be near the man,
> God has revealed that it is His will for the man to be helped...

A commendable attitude.  Are there any major Christian groups which
disagree?  If so, then what attempts are being made to change their
minds, and by whom?  Such an effort would be considerably more
productive in fostering positive relations with Jews than conversion
attempts.

R
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: It's the same Judaism
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:02:33 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

	*** POSTED ON BEHALF OF BRUCE BENNING ***

*******************************************************************************

#2891

>> R. Levene wrote:
>>On the other hand, I'm thinking of the eloquent statement by Pope John
>>XXIII asking for forgiveness for Church-sponsored murder based on this
>>precept.  I think the book _Why the Jews_ reproduces it.

> T. Albrecht responded:
>Indeed, the Roman tradition is steeped in the blood of many people; Jews,
>protestants, etc.  In fact, the reason why they had so little regard for
>human life is because they had little regard for the law of God as revealed
>in the Scriptures.  Had they followed the simple commands given by God to
>"care for the alien in their midst" there would have been no Jewish blood
>shed ever.  The legacy is clear, when the church abandoned the law-word of
>God as the only standard for faith and practice, all sorts of abominations
>were encouraged.  That's why the Church needs to repent of its antinomian
>ways and reclaim the truth of the law-word of God.
>
>--
>Tom Albrecht

   I guess we will see you in services on Saturday then? :--)

  Bruce Benning
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:12:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 MR> From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
 MR> Date: 29 Jul 92 06:49:02 GMT
 MR> Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
 MR> Message-ID: <1992Jul29.064902.14222@samba.oit.unc.edu>
 MR> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
             -=> Quoting Malachi Robertson Bill Carlson <=-
 MR> Could the "Commonwealth" Israel be considered the Church spoken of in
 MR> the New Testament (here viewing this Church as on a higher level than
 MR> just the Gentile Church)?
      The "Commonwealth" are those of the 'wild-olive-tree', -(non-
      believing gentiles), that have "joined" the natural-tree
      -(Israel).  Not to "replace" Israel; but to be joined to her, they
      are "commonwealth"; much  in the same way as Canada is
      commonwealth with England.  ...yet Canada is not England.

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210  
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From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Our Father Abraham  m
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:24:06 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX

Quoting Tom Albrecht:
**But I have been called an anti-Semite by folks in this forum; mostly by
**Messianic Jews who theologically disagree with my understanding of the
**future of Israel and the Jewish people.

    Well add to that one gentile who is thoroughly disgusted by your
anti-semitic assertions in the here and now!
___



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From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Our Father Abraham
Date: 20 Jul 92 13:43:05 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <LJMORLY.92Jul16192856@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>
>What do you know about antisemitism ? Where you in Auschwich-Oshwienchyk,
>Maidanek, Treblinka... ? You remind me of Jack "ARF" Schmidling (who writes
>e.g. to SCJ and TPM). You could make good friends with him, seems to me. 

Thank you so much for your vote of confidence, and for carefully reading
what I wrote, and for practicing "guilt by association."  I hope your
debate teacher would be dismayed at your approach to these issues.

No, I was not in a concentration camp during WWII, and I doubt whether many
in this forum have been?  Have you?

But I have been called an anti-Semite by folks in this forum; mostly by
Messianic Jews who theologically disagree with my understanding of the
future of Israel and the Jewish people.

The fact remains, as far as the Scriptures are concerned, that all the 
believers in Messiah are children of Abraham.  That was my point. 
According to  the apostle Peter, under the new covenant the CHurch is the
royal priesthood and holy nation of God Almighty.  There is no racial
distinction in this holy nation.

You can disagree if you wish, but the teaching of the Apostle Paul in
Galatians remains.  I rejoice that as a Gentile I can be counted with the
faithful of Israel and share in the blessing promised to our father
Abraham.  I do not consider myself a second class citizen in the "holy
nation," nor, for that matter, did the apostles.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: It's the same Judaism
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:12:28 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <9207171213.AA27634@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>...
>> Modern Judaism is the heir of this legacy.  Rather than acknowledge her sin
>> before Almighty God and turn from her wickedness and embrace her Messiah,
>> she has become more hard-hearted over the generations...
>
>Is it standard Christian belief to describe a difference of opinion
>as "wickedness?"  If a Jew is being persecuted, and you believe this
>persecution to be a punishment for this "wickedness" would you
>take action to end the persecution?

Let me ask you a question?  Would you regard the Israelites who worshipped
the Baals and Ashtaroth, and who built the "high places" to simply have a
"difference of opinion" with regard to the law of God?

My reference to "wickedness" was specifically directed at those Jews who
crucified their Messiah.  I've made that position clear in past messages.

>I'm thinking specifically of the cleric who allowed Jews to be killed
>because "there are no innocent Jews."

"There is none innocent, no not one."  That goes for Jew and Gentile.
All need to come under the cleansing blood of Messiah Jesus.  On the other
hand modern Jews are clearly not responsible for the death of Messiah.
Simple study of the Scriptures will show that to be true.

>On the other hand, I'm thinking of the eloquent statement by Pope John
>XXIII asking for forgiveness for Church-sponsored murder based on this
>precept.  I think the book _Why the Jews_ reproduces it.

Indeed, the Roman tradition is steeped in the blood of many people; Jews,
protestants, etc.  In fact, the reason why they had so little regard for
human life is because they had little regard for the law of God as revealed
in the Scriptures.  Had they followed the simple commands given by God to
"care for the alien in their midst" there would have been no Jewish blood
shed ever.  The legacy is clear, when the church abandoned the law-word of
God as the only standard for faith and practice, all sorts of abominations
were encouraged.  That's why the Church needs to repent of its antinomian
ways and reclaim the truth of the law-word of God.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: knowing HaShem
Date: 21 Jul 1992 14:52:45 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <9207212100.AA00728@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>Such an effort would be considerably more
>productive in fostering positive relations with Jews than conversion
>attempts.

Rob,
	We (believers in Yeshua) are not interested in having "positive
relations" with you, as an end in itself.  What we are interested in is
having you come to know HaShem, and be saved from your sins.  Everything
else is secondary, and pales in importance to your eternal destiny.  But,
if having "positive relations" will be a means to further this important
end, then we're all for it.

-- 
"Arguing about predestination is virtually irresistible."    --RC Sproul
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu       ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean and unclean un
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:24:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX

TA> Who is the phantom "we" you're referring to?

    No "phantom", Tom.  "WE" do NOT agree with the garbage you have been
posting.

TA>"Not wanting us to know the truth." I have repeatedly quoted the Bible
TA>support my statements in this forum. I am hiding nothing from no one.

    So what?  I have seen people bludgeoned to spiritual death with
Bible quotes before....all it means is that you can ignore the whole
counsel and selectively apply verses to your own ends.  Which is exactly
what you are doing here.

TA> What is their for me to hide? Am I that all powerful that I can hide
TA> truth from you?

    You are obviously powerful enough to hide the truth from your own
self.

TA>Besides, I don't want anyone to agree with me. I want them to be like
TA>noble Bereans of the book of Acts. I want them to read and study God'
TA>word for themselves and come to conclusions based on it.

    YOU want, YOU want.....does it matter to you what G-d wants in this
thing?  You read scripture selectively, ignoring the on-going place of
the Jewish people in the eternal plan of G-d, and cop this high and
mighty attitude of self-righteousness before them.  Do you think you
will walk away justified?
    Nope...what you want is to justify the hatred in your heart by
"proving" it has G-d's approval.  It doesn't.
___


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