From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Summary, Trinity vs LDS View fo the Godhead
Date: 9 Jan 93 08:07:52 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <94Pf02nW30oj01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>,
 agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
> geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:

>> So you can capture the essence of Mormon teaching about Jesus
>> in "lds=brother of Lucifer".  You are truly a case, Tony.
> 
> Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a created being and the brother of us all,
> including Lucifer (Satan).  That is itself says enough. The Bible
> teaches that Jesus created everything, seen and unseen, visible and
> invisible. The Creator of ALL matter, where ALL means what it says. You
> cannot be brother of something you created.

So, then you claim the bible promotes creation ex nihilio?

[...]
>> Joseph Smith taught that all of us existed from eternity, and
>> none are created.  Are you saying that a special exception was
>> made for Jesus?  You need to get your heresies straight!
> 
> Then what in pray-tell are God and his wives doing in heaven
> "creating" spirit children?

"Man was also in the beginning with God.  Intelligence, or the
light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

"All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed
it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there
is no existence.

"For man is spirit.  The elements are eternal, and spirit and
element inseparable connected, receive a fulness of joy."
(Doctrine and Covenants 93:29,30,33.)

The correct LDS concept goes something like this:

In the beginning we were all just intelligences.
God the Father created spiritual bodies for our intelligences.
Jesus Christ was the first to receive one of these spiritual bodies.
Under the direction of God the Father, Jesus Christ created
  (organized) physical matter into the universe we now know.
This means that in a certain sense, Jesus Christ is the "father"
  of our physical bodies.
Thus we have a father of our spirits (God the Father),
  and a father of our bodies (Jesus Christ).
Thus, we are co-eternal with God in that our intelligence has
  always existed, and we are also created beings in that we came
  into existence as spirit beings and later physical beings.

>>> Well, which is it, are you "co-eternal with God"?  Have you
>>> existed as long as God has?  Or were you created as Spirit
>>> children?

Yes to all of the above.

[...]
>> Creation in Mormon theology is more like organize.  
>> Creation ex nihilo is denied.
> 
> I agree that in Mormonism that Creation is "organization". 
> That is true and a completely different discussion.  Espcially
> when the Hebrew word for Create in Genesis means to make
> "something from nothing" (No Willard, I am not a Hebrew scholar
> and ain't claiming to be.  I am simply quoting many scholars in
> this statement.

Are *they* Hebrew scholars or just bible scholars?

> Anyway, back to the original point.  Can you give me some
> Joseph Smith quotation and referrences for these things you say
> are his teachings? I am not trying to say that you are lying, so
> please don't think I am saying that.  But you do keep saying that
> "Joseph Smith's teaching was..." and never give referrences. 
> Could you provide those if what you say is true?

D&C 93:29,30,33; Abraham 3:22-23.


cc: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com
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Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc