HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bk874@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Patrick J. Brennick)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: "Jeeves and Wooster"
Date: 6 Jan 1993 13:15:43 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Reply-To: bk874@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Patrick J. Brennick)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe) says:

>In article <1993Jan5.104437.46114@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>>Love the series also.  Note the odd consensus here: I too always
>>thought of Jeeves as an older man.  That's three of us (?) so far.
>>Why have we made this assumption?  Any theories?  Any dissenters?
>
>Two possible thoughts;  
>
>- Jeeves _acts_ many years older than Bertie, so naturally...
>
>- Many editions of Wodehouse sport cover art showing a balding Jeeves.  Not
>Plum's doing, presumably, but it worms its way into the unconscious.
>
>			Chuck Smythe
>
	There were some "Jeeves" movies, I believe, probably from the 40's,
starring Arthur Treacher (of Merv Griffin and "...Fish & Chips" fame), which
is where my original conception of Jeeves comes from (that, and the fact that
"English Manservant" conjures up a similar stereotype). 
	
	I think one of the things that works so well is the fact that
Jeeves and Wooster are of the approximate same age, showing a larger 
difference in the classes in Britain, and not one of an older/younger
generation difference.

Patrick Brennick
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 02:44:16 GMT

In article <10JAN93.15045517@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>Michael Sean Rooney wrote:
>
>>        How can knuckling under to a purported biological determinism 
>>ever be empowering to anyone?  Holding that men "just can't help themselves"
>>(which is precisely what Paglia's position amounts to) 
>
>I don't think her position can be stated in such simplistic terms.  I see her
>as encouraging women to take responsibility for themselves and stop thinking
>of themselves as victims.  Women *have* been victimized, but to cling to
>victim status is to leave all the power in the hands of the oppressors.  
>

	I just don't understand your position.  How is placing the
onus of responsibility on the woman as potential rape target (i.e., 
as potential *victim*) in any way empowering?  Rather, it seems the
very source of women's victimization.  To bring a concrete Paglia 
quote in the discussion, "the only solution to date rape is female
self-awareness and self-control."  This thinking squarely leaves 
"the oppressors" (rapists) untouched, even untouchable by criticism,
since "hunt, pursuit, and capture are biologically programmed into
male sexuality."  If I render Paglia simplistically, I am only reflecting
her own clownish penchant for philosophical anthropology.

>As far as "purported biological determinism" is concerned: do you truly
>believe that hormones have nothing at all to do with behavior?  How do you
>explain male aggressiveness?  
>

	Your dishonest attempt to ascribe an extremist view to me is
duly noted.  Nowhere have I ever claimed "that hormones have nothing
at all to do with behavior."  Neither will I attempt to "explain male
aggressiveness," nor engage in any of the other absurdly reductive 
intellectual doggie tricks which are Paglia's golden eggs.  I am merely
criticizing Paglia's vapid forays into sexual essentialism.

>>rather gives the lie to Heather's putative liberalism (cf. the exchange with
>>Steve Dyer). 
>
>I never claimed my philosophy to be "liberalism".  I call it common sense.
>

	Inanity is still inanity, regardless of spin doctoring.  I
ascribed liberalism to you (pay heed to the word "putative") based on
the particularly liberal principle of symmetrical name-calling you
conveniently adopted in defending Mike Morris.

Cordially,

Michael S. Rooney

"The characteristic of forgetting is that it forgets itself."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Paglia
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:58:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.223952.26501@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>
>The review of Halperin's book _One Hundred Years of Homo-
>sexuality_ in SAaAC is the litcrit equivalent of a slasher film: you simul-
>taneously cringe for the hapless author, while enjoying each stab of the knife.
>Halperin's book isn't anywhere as interesting as Paglia's review of it:
>it's your generic constructionist manifesto on sexuality, written in
>pompous, unintelligible MLA-style prose.

I agree with this take on her ARION essay. It is far more fun and
enlightening to read anything by Paglia over anything by David Halperin.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:46:15 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1993Jan8.042508.1361@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
> In article <1993Jan7.224717.27194@PacBell.COM> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
> >> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes crap:
# #Your position is certainly consistent, but it betrays a
# #streak of smug Social Darwinism, or perhaps merely a
# #foolish misunderstanding of human nature.
# 
# No, it just means he's a clueless "I've got mine" white Protestant het boy
# for whom all forms of marginalization are incomprehensible abstractions;
# something to argue idly about while wasting time on the net.  It's nauseating.
# 
# Steve Dyer

What the whiners don't realize is that "white Protestant het boys" get
marginalized, too -- by different groups.  I've been the victim of a
"hate crime" before.  I was robbed (property of value taken under
threat of violent assault) by a black kid, and my race was apparently
the basis under which much older blacks on the bus agreed to threaten
me to get my compliance.  I've been discriminated against in private,
social contexts, ("My father won't let me date Gentiles." "I didn't
realize you weren't Jewish on our first date.")  I've
been discriminated against in the use of tax monies, in that scholarships
funded by the California Lottery were available based on ethnic
origin, and I was ineligible to apply because of ethnicity.

Take your nonsensical claim that "white Protestant het boys" don't
know about discrimination, and shove it.



-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 05:05:02 GMT

In article <13880@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>Does this invalidate Marx's ideas?  Not necessarily -- but it
>gives you reason to wonder why we hold this exploitive, unconcerned
>father up as some sort of intellectual exemplar in the schools.

Somehow I had managed to forget that Karl Marx is so widely admired in the
schools I attended (public school in the Houston Independent School
District, followed by college, graduate school, and law school at the
University of Texas).


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 12:26:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.072817.23343@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

>The man was no nun, from all reports.

Now, if Foucault *had* been a nun, I think it would have been profoundly
useful in appreciating his work.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mdb@netcom.com (Mark Bisgeier)
Subject: THE SECRET HISTORY/ Donna Tartt
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 03:08:17 GMT

Two questions:

1.  Are there any reviews of this novel posted in this newsgroup?

2.  Is there any ftp/telnet source for online reviews of books, e.g., some
     kind of online NY Times Book review?

Thanks
-- 


                      """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
                       Mark Bisgeier   mdb@netcom.com

                         Imagine the possibilities!

                        """"""""""""""""""""""""""""
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Subject: Re: Celebrating McGonagall
Reply-To: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre, Munich
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:04:50 GMT

In article <JMC.93Jan6002645@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.223131.15522@ecrc.de> sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:
> Um, excuse the ignorance, but is McGonagall the poet that a Certain British
> TV Program once did a feature on?  The Scots poet who wrote such masterpieces
> as  "If ye lend me fiyve bob till Thursdae..." ?
> 
>I'll stick my neck out.  Although I have had very little exposure to
>MacGonagall, I'd nevertheless be quite surprised if he wrote any such
>thing.  It doesn't fit my MacGonagall image.

Ah, my feeble attempt at humour.  Which Muse do I blame for letting me down?
CognoMonti will recognise the reference to the sketch spoofing the beeb's
features on who they consider literary figures, where one of the Pythons
(Michael Palin, was it?) dons a kilt and beard and strides across Scottish
terrain mumbling such "debtless" verse as "if ye lend me .....".

Anyway, my point was: why should we be subject to celebrating mediocrities
when there are so many first-rate writers and poets who are more deserving
of wider readership if only they were decently translated?

Regards,
Sanjiva

--
Sanjiva Prasad,  Guest Magus				E-mail: sanjiva@ecrc.de
European Computer Industry Research Centre		Off: +49 89 92 69 91 58
Arabellastrasse 17					Fax: +49 89 92 69 91 70
8000 Muenchen 81, Germany				Res: +49 89 16 33 59
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott)
Subject: Re: Shouting at robots
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 14:58:10 GMT
X-Posted-From: iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <JMC.93Jan2141039@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU
(John McCarthy) wrote:
> 
> I hear my 7 year old son shouting "Stop! Stop!" at his robot.  You
> might consider shouting at a toy robot a singularly futile exercise.
> However, the robot, manufactured in China for a Japanese company and
> sold at Radio Shack, uses voice recognition technology licensed from an
> American company.
> 
> It just isn't very obedient when shouted at.
> 
> A $25 prize is offered for the best posting in the next week viewing
> this development with alarm, i.e. children shouting at robots.

Oh that's fine, Dr. McCarthy.  Make light of children shouting at robots. 
Offer a reward for somebody who sees a problem with it.  Big joke.  Ha ha.

I'm not laughing.

Your child's mind is being SUBVERTED by inscrutable foreigners and you are
AMUSED.  Let me tell you what is going to happen to your son.  He will
learn to control machines (such as this "toy"), a skill they consider
useful for him to have in the world they are creating.  He'll be able to
tell the robot to "Turn left" or "stop", and it will.  It will obey his
every command--except when it's important.  You see, your son only shouts
when it is important TO HIM for the robot to stop.  And that is precisely
when the robot is designed not to stop.

Can't you see what is being imprinted in your child's brain?  He will grow
up thinking he is in control of the various machines in his life.  He will
be convinced of that, and it is important to them that that is what he
actually consciously believes.  But when it comes to something important,
when the computer generated letter tells him something he doesn't want to
believe, when the government computer tells him he owes more tax or that he
is drafted and should go to war, when the computer model shows that he
should support this policy, this candidate, this party, when these things
happen, that's when the programming you make such light of rears its ugly
head.  It is then that deep down in his soul, he will know that shouting at
robots doesn't work, not when it's important.  His subconscious will say
"resistance is futile" and for reasons he isn't conscious of, he will give
in, dejected and resigned to whatever they designs they have, but still
believing that somehow, it is he and not they who are in control of his
life.

You may be able to laugh about this.  I feel like crying.  NO!  I FEEL LIKE
SHOUTING!

"STOP!  STOP!"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: "Jeeves and Wooster"
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 02:29:03 GMT

The semi-anonymous miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:

>Love the series also.  Note the odd consensus here: I too always
>thought of Jeeves as an older man.  That's three of us (?) so far.
>Why have we made this assumption?  Any theories?  Any dissenters?

	I didn't mention this in my response to Tom Maddox but I
concur that when I was reading Wodehouse my sense was that Jeeves was
older. I would put it down to my perception of Jeeves as the adult and
Bertie as the child. Still, the series is so good Jeeves' age is but a
minor quibble. Anyway, that's four I guess.

>While I can't fault the TV versions in any way, the medium does take
>away some of Plum's genius.

	Oh absolutely, but this way we have two mediums (and the
series only has another two weeks to go).

	Keith
--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Het Boys (was: Homophobia)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 16:06:43 GMT

In article <9JAN93.14541592@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>Calling someone a "black homo" is an insult, precisely because of these
>>groups' very marginalization.  
>
>Baloney.  What you're saying is, no matter *what* a marginalized group is
>known as, that word is automatically an insult, no matter who uses it and
>under what circumstances.  Where do you get that idea?

Huh?  I don't have the foggiest idea of where you're taking this argument,
but it has nothing to do with my point.  "Homo" is a fighting word: and
if you call someone a "black homo", it's using the attributes of black people's
marginalization as an intensifier (not that it isn't a remarkably feeble
insult.)  "White homo" just doesn't have quite the same resonance,
and "white het boy" pales in comparison.

>>Recall the Stein/lesbian thread, please. 
>
>You seem to think the term "lesbian" is an insult.  It's not.

Well, right.  What do you think MY point was in that thread?  Sheesh.

>It only
>becomes insulting when used in a derogatory manner, as Michael Wise used it,
>and as you used "het boy".  

You seem to think the term "het boy" is an insult.  It's not.
And it can't be, because of what it means to be a white het boy
in our society.  Its only power comes from irony.

>>Calling someone who is in every aspect just what they are--a member of 
>>the majority, when that privileged condition contributes to their 
>>complacency and insensitivity is perfectly acceptible.  
>
>Maybe to you.  

Yup.

>Are you, *in principle*, against attacking people based on their race,
>religion, and sexuality, or only against attacking *marginalized* people in
>that manner?

You can save your "take the pledge of allegiance" argument.  Institutionalized,
pervasive oppression is one-way: from the powerful to the marginalized, and
that's what I'm concerned with.  There's no symmetry here.  If Morris makes
his arguments from the comfy chair of privilege, cluelessness and sancti-
moniousness which characterizes the position of many WHN-DMs who live an
unexamined life, I'd say that his background is relevant.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: Paglia and M. S. Rooney
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 04:32:11 GMT

Michael, thanks for posting those quotes from whatever the heck the title
of Paglia's newsest one is.  Those quotes pretty much confirm my sense that,
with media acclaim, Paglia has pretty much lost whatever it was she had to
offer in the first place by way of thoughtful insight.  I still want to read
*SP*, however.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: gwr@hedonist-1.lanl.gov (Graham W. Redgrave)
Subject: No Rumi at the City Lights Inn (Was:  Re: Rilke-Translation)
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:56:25 GMT

Blaise Cirelli writes:
[...]
|> Happened to be in San Francisco last night and decided to go to
|> Lawrence Ferlinghetti's City Lights book store to check out
|> the poetry section.
|> 
|> I wanted to compare translations of Rilke's poetry. I compared
|> Stephen Mitchell's translations against others. I was trying not
|> to like Stephen Mitchell since he seems to be the rage today. If 
|> you live in the S.F. Bay area his books are everywhere.
|> 

I was just in SF recently and will move there shortly, so I was eager
to check out the City Lights.  I wanted to show my hosts how cool Rumi is
since they'd not heard of him and are avid readers, but the City Lights
did not, as far I as I could discern, have a place for the Persian
Master.  Maybe I should have looked places other than Poetry and Translated
Fiction (or something like that), but, since I was full with a hearty
North Beach pasta dinner, I didn't fret.  Should I have looked elsewhere
in the store?  In San Francisco?  They didn't have any of the Railway
Series (by the Rev. W. Awdry) either, but I wasn't expecting them to, 
since I have seen those books nowhere.  Does anyone have any information
about them?  ...they were favorites of mine and I long to bestow copies
on my 14 month old.  Just an itch at this point, not an inflammation.


Yours in whirling like a dhervish and a nostalgic remembrance 
of Thomas the Tank Engine,


-- 
Graham Redgrave    |    --  I don't speak for the government, 
gwr@life.lanl.gov  |        but I wish the government would speak for me ...  --
From: kcr@rushforth.Eng.Sun.COM (Kevin Rushforth)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: 1992 in Review
Date: 10 Jan 1993 18:26:57 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: rushforth

vince@cadence.com (Vince Gibboni) writes:

>but I'd like to point out that it's absolutely physically impossible
>to read 214 books in a single year. Okay, that's not quite right, it's
>absolutely physically impossible for _me_ to read 214 books in a single
>year. I just figured it out - I read about 25 pages/hour...

I, too, read slowly: usually averaging about 25-30 pages/hr and (very
occasionally) hitting as high as 50.  I read about 20 novels in 1993
(along with 2 or 3 short story anthologies).  These are the ones I
liked best (roughly in order):

	THE PRINCE OF TIDES, by Pat Conroy
	THE CIDER HOUSE RULES, by John Irving
	THE ACCIDENTAL TOURIST, by Anne Tyler
	BREATHING LESSONS, by Anne Tyler
	POSSESSION, by A. S. Byatt
	A FIRE UPON THE DEEP, by Vernor Vinge
	DOOMSDAY BOOK, by Connie Willis
	A HISTORY OF THE WORLD IN 10 1/2 CHAPTERS, by Julian Barnes
	PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, by Jane Austin

-- 
Kevin C. Rushforth                 | "If winning is not important,
Sun Microsystems                   |  then commander, why keep score?"
                                   |              - Lt. Worf
INET: kcr@Eng.Sun.COM              |
UUCP: <the-backbone>!sun!eng!kcr   |
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Het Boys (was: Homophobia)
Date: 9 Jan 93 17:40:34 GMT
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org

In article <1993Jan9.045903.19370@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

>I think privilege clouds and oppression hones the mind when it
>comes to discerning and appreciating the oppression of others.

If only this were true.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: academic settings
Date: 10 Jan 1993 18:58:17 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

John Lovett wrote:

	Can anyone recommend other books set in academia? 
	Any genre will do.

*GaudeNacht*, of course, but surely the inestimable Iris Murdoch has
something for your pleasure?

							RABworm

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Cross-Writing (was: Books I Got For Xmas)
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 06:29:58 GMT

In article <a0wV02Vq30v.01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> jjh00@diag.amdahl.com writes:
>Ms. LeGuin is the _only_ SF-genre write that I routinely
>recommend to readers who don't normally read SF.
>(Sorry, Tom)

	A very narrow-band recommendation, I'd say, but any loss is your
prospective readers', not mine.  


-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: RE: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:52:18 GMT
Organization: Clark University

Keith Morgan writes:

>        Hold on just a minute. If Heather calls Mark an asshole does 
>that negate steps 8-11? I thought we would proceed to a discussion of 
>the epithet "asshole" so that Godwin's Rule may be invoked. 

Oh, I thought that Mark was fulfilling Step 6 by being offended at my remark
about men, which could be considered a Step 5 if one were a particularly
hypersensitive male.  Mark is now supposed to tell me off, whereupon Step 8
can occur.  I called him an asshole because, in spite of his assertions, I've
never called him or any other r.a.b.ster an asshole, and I wished to correct
my oversight.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books