Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: LORD, LIAR OR LUNATIC? (continued)
From: skroger@zeus.calpoly.edu (Seth L. Kroger)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:12:17 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

joyce@meaddata.com  writes:
>WAS HE A LUNATIC?
>
>If it is inconceivable for Jesus to be a liar, then couldn't he

Well, it is concievable.  The argument should stop right here.

>actually have thought himself to be God, but been mistaken? After all,
>it's possible to be both sincere and wrong. But we must remember that
>for someone to think himself God, especially in a fiercely
>monotheistic culture, and then to tell others that their eternal
>destiny depended on believing in him, is no slight flight of fantasy
>but the thoughts of a lunatic in the fullest sense. Was Jesus Christ
>such a person?
>
>Noyes and Kolb, in a medical text, describe the schizophrenic as a
>person who is more autistic than realistic. The schizophrenic desires
>to escape from the world of reality. Let's face it; claiming to be God
>would certainly be a retreat from reality.

This is the main flaw of the "not a lunatic" argument.  You assume that if
Jesus was a lunatic that:  1) He *must* have one (or one out of a very
limited set) specific mental disorder.  2) He *must* present a textbook case
of it.  3) The accounts of his life (the Gospels) provide enough information
to determine whether he was or wasn't crazy.

>In light of the other things we know about Jesus, it's hard to imagine
>that he was mentally disturbed. Here is a man who spoke some of the
>most profound sayings ever recorded. His instructions have liberated
>bewilderment."
[A lot of hearsay evidence, all from contempory people, deleted as being
irrelavent and mere assertion, not evidence.]

"It's hard to believe he could be a liar/lunatic."  Arguing from personal
incredulity won't get you anywhere.  Just because you want to believe it
doesn't meen it's true.

What we know of Jesus comes straight from the Gospels.  Even if the Gospels
were accurate in some of the things Jesus said and did, it is still not
enough evidence to claim he wasn't a lunatic.  Remember that the basic
source for Jesus's life story is a group of his close friends.  When friends
speak about someone, they tend to gloss over many of the person's flaws and
unpleasent episodes.  If Jesus did show signs of mental disturbance, these
episodes would probably not make it in.

>WAS HE LORD?
>
>I cannot personally conclude that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. The
>only other alternative is that he was the Christ, the Son of God, as
>he claimed.

The major problems with the conclusion:
1)  Argument assumes the Gosples are an accurate account of Jesus' life.
2)  Presents only three alternatives, denying the existence of any others.
3)  Claim that option #3 must be true if #1&2 are shown to be false, despite
	 there being no positive evidence for #3.  Negative arguments don't work.
4)  The claims that #1 and #2 are both false themselves rely on
    circimstantial, negative arguments.  Both rely heavily on Gospel
	 accuracy (see above).  Both claims, in reality, are wide open.

In the face of the above problems, Claiming Jesus is Lord by the above
argument is just plain stupid.

>The evidence is clearly in favor of Jesus as Lord. Some people,
>however, reject this clear evidence because of moral implications
>involved. They don't want to face up to the responsibility or
>implications of calling him Lord.

Sorry, but it has to be positive evidence, not this circumstantial load of
crap.

>----------------------If anyone is interested where I got this from,
>I'll let you know sometime.------------------------------------------

I'd be interested to knowing, so I can avoid wasting any of my time in
reading it.

|======================================================================|
| Seth Kroger                       "If God made us in His image we    |
| skroger@pan.calpoly.edu               have certianly returned the    |
| Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo             compliment."  -Voltaire        |
Newsgroups: alt.atheism