HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:35:39 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School

In <ku9hg8INNgh9@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:

>I am not going the defend the use of "uninformed" but I have to point out
>one thing:  Should the RFD have said:  .....manga....manga....manga...
>and have no references to comics?  Seriously, that would have left me
>confused if I never heard of the term before. 

>It might have come out wrong when expaining the reasoning
>behind the use of the word "comics" but the original intent was to
>be helpful and to ease this process.  Is that condescending?

If the RFD had said manga manga manga instead of comic comic I wouldn't be in
this discussion. I wouldn't have know what 'manga' meant but I really
don't care what it means. All I know is that the charter said it was a
comic. That was enough to get me interested in seeing a proper name placed
on the RFD.

As for the word 'uninformed' being condescending. It isn't all by itself.
But several early posts suggested that the 'uninformed' had no place in
this discussion or a vote on a manga group. I call that downright rude.

>This burden of proof idea was also discussed in a previous post.
>Yes, we have more of the burden, but not all.

Well... as I see it you need 100 more yes votes than no votes. That places
the burden on you. If the manga group doesn't make it into the mainstream
because the supporters won't write a proposal that appeals to enough
voters it really doesn't matter to me. I don't mind seeing such a group
created (in the appropriate place) but I won't lose sleep if it is not.

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU  -  Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business

Radio:    "No Funk, No Punk, No Junk. 99 Rock!"
Listener: "What? No advertisements?"
Xref: sparky news.groups:10463 rec.games.mud:5000
From: alansz@cogsci.berkeley.edu (Alan Schwartz)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.mud
Subject: rec.games.mud reorganization (not YAP)
Summary: summary and clarification, a bit.
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:00:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.skfckINN6a3
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu
Originator: alansz@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU


	Some concern has been expressed in news.groups about the voting
procedures. People seem to be worried that a newsgroup will fail
because it is somehow tied to a specific proposal.
	The preferred way of USENET voting is to hold parallel votes.
That is, each new group is voted on as a separate item, independent
of the rest of the groups. What *is* important in a situation like
this is to be sure that we agree on the names of the groups.
I'd hate to see r.g.m.info go up against r.g.m.announce, for example,
splitting the vote and ruining the group's chance.
	If you follow the news.groups debate, you know that many
posters seem to favor the formation of r.g.m.announce (usually
in a moderated form, with Scott Goehring moderating) and then
either r.g.m.tiny and r.g.m.diku *or* r.g.m.social and r.g.m.adventure.
Finally, it has been suggested that r.g.m itself get renamed
r.g.m.misc.
	Just thought I'd summarize for ya.
	I have one question about r.g.m.announce. Is this reserved
for up/down/new mud announcements, or is it also going to be the
place for mating flight/mud wedding (which I've seen on dikus)/
wizards come get your castles kinda stuff. While I favor the inclusive
version (ie. all of this is appropriate), I'll leave it to Scott
to tell me what he thinks.
	If we can come to some kinds of consensus, we can run the
vote (assuming we can set up a way to count ballots.) For example,
if there's already a strong consensus for r.g.m.announce, someone
could run the CFV now, without waiting for us to figure out
what to do about the other splits.

	- Alan (Javelin@Belgariad, Garreth@Spellbound, Treacle@TIM)

P.S. I am one of those folks who think that this discussion belongs
in news.groups. I posted here just to keep you informed and to
ask Scott my question. Follow-ups are redirected to news.groups.\
If you don't like that, then when you follow-up send it back here.

 
----
Alan Schwartz                    | Disclaimer: I represent no one
alansz@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |
UC Berkeley                      | "Life is what happens to you while
Cognitive Science/Women's Studies|  you're busy making other plans"
                                 |          - J. Lennon
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:34:02 GMT

moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (The Napoleon of Crime) writes:
>I would recommend against it at this time; I have seen almost no spill-over
>of manga discussions into rec.arts.comics, which is where this would be
>discussed in the usual Usenet heirarchy -- and this makes me suspicious of
>the popularity of such a newsgroup.  I think you need to run a test on 
>a fully-propogated rec. group first to see what amount of traffic you're
>actually going to get.

There ya go!  Someone who isn't bickering about the name of the proposed
new group. :-)

BTW: I disagree.  You would see cross-posts to rec.arts.anime.  Oh, and
you do.  And it _is_ very prolific.  rec.arts.anime is a fully-
propogated rec. group.  Don't be suspicious, check out rec.arts.anime.
There is a much closer relationship between manga and anime than between
manga and comics, if you can consider content instead of medium.

This is a practical example of why it shouldn't be named 
rec.arts.comics.manga.  The threads simply don't tend to relate between the
two groups. They are two variations of the same medium. (Jazz & Pop)
Neither belongs under the other because the discussions will typically
have no intersections.

If content of the threads in the new group is to be considered when naming
it, then rec.arts.anime.manga is better suited than rec.arts.comics.manga.
(Although rec.arts.manga is even more appropriate...)

--David
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| David Blume            | When you're holding a hammer, everything |
| dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com | looks like a nail. --Anonymous.          |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.arts.sf.movies,rec.arts.comics
From: wagenfuh@huey.udel.edu (Karl Wagenfuehr)
Subject: Who'd win: Captain Napalm vs. Atomic Man
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:46:40 GMT

Just to keep annoyance levels high:  in an all out battle, who would win:
Captain Napalm from Calvin & Hobbes, or Atomic Man from the Simpsons?
-- 
                    ' ",      *
Karl Wagenfuehr         ,         "Weisst du, wieviel Sternlein stehen an dem
wagenfuh@huey.udel.edu  ,  '      blauen Himmelszelt?"  --Deutsches Volkslied
                          '
From: bgabel@sedona.intel.Com (Brad Gabel)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  comp.sys.cadence
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:47:54 GMT
Organization: Intel, MSCG Physical CAD
Originator: bgabel@bishop


In article <1992Mar30.181049.26775@uunet.uu.net>, pas@jupiter.ic.cmc.ca (Peter Stokes) writes:
|> Call For Discussion:  Creation of comp.sys.cadence 
|> 
|> Your comments are solicited:
|> 
|>    1.  should we create it?

Yes, however the Cadence offerings are so broad, it may be more useful
to split things up into several sub-groups.  For instance, Framework,
Dracula, Skill, PlaceRoute, etc. .  The list could get out of hand, so
some careful thought would need to go into this.  One single group for
Cadence would be kind of like having just rec.sports .

|>    2.  is the name correct (position in the Usenet hierarchy)?

Looks OK to me.

|>    3.  should cadence employees be encouraged or discouraged 
|>        to participate?  (I say encouraged)

Definately encouraged.

|>    4.  should it be moderated?  (I say not!   Especically not
|>        by me!)

No, leave it open.  The real problem is going to be one of maintaining
propriety in the discussions.  This is up to the submitters to insure,
but many of the companies using Cadence software are using it for
customized (i.e. proprietary) applications, that I'm sure could easily
slip into such discussions.
-- 
Brad Gabel             Site Development Services / PD CAD
(602)554-8293          bgabel@sedona.intel.com

5000 W. Chandler Blvd, M/S CH3-79, Chandler, AZ  85226
Xref: sparky news.groups:10136 news.admin:3553
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
Subject: Re: All of you guidelines thumpers (was Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS)
From: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin)
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:14:03 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Beckman Instruments, Inc.

In <1992Apr10.214800.3313@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>Ok, you asked for it. We'll do it this way:

>I'll run four separate votes. If it comes to pass that ANY of these
>groups pass and ANY OTHER of these groups doesn't then I PERSONALLY 
>will withdraw all software support and other support for the moderated 
>groups. Further, I will not support these groups at my news site, and 
>I will recommend the same. Finally, articles coming in for those groups
>will be dropped on the floor.

If you are the moderator, it is your perogative to reject all articles in the
group.  Seems fair to me.
--
Arthur L. Rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea
216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal)
My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.
Ich bin ein Virus.  Mach' mit und kopiere mich in Deine .signature.
Xref: sparky news.groups:10183 misc.jobs.misc:3483
From: machanicm@gtephx.UUCP (Mindy Machanic)
Newsgroups: news.groups,misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.jobs.*
Summary: and yet another suggestion for naming...
Keywords: alterations to newsgroup(s)
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:35:03 GMT
Organization: AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, Arizona

In article <BMLvJ8.Mqy@world.std.com>, Sarek@world.std.com (Garrett S Fitzgerald) writes:
> >CREATE: misc.jobs.entry    = positions offered to new graduates
> >        misc.jobs.expert   = positions offered to the experienced
> >        misc.jobs.recruit  = positions offered by recruitment agents
> 
I think misc.jobs.entry is OK, but I think the next one should be misc.jobs.experienced,
so that people who are not pros with 10 years of experience but who are not entry-level
either would feel comfortable looking there. The pros with 10 years of experience would
also look their since it says experienced, but it doesn't leave out those who are
proficient but perhaps don't consider themselves expert.

I don't have a problem with the recruiters being there.

Mindy

-- 
*****************************************************************************************
Mindy Machanic  (AG Communication Systems/Quality Engineering, Phoenix, AZ)               
UUCP: ....!{ncar!noao!asuvax | att}!gtephx!machanicm       FAX: (602) 52-7111
Internet: gtephx!machanicm@asuvax.eas.asu.edu              Voice: (602) 582-7374
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Source code for tallying multi-part ballots
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:49:11 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

This is a plea for anyone out there who has written code in C or pascal
or some other compiled language to count multi-part votes. I need
something of this sort (not in perl, if I can help it) to count the
votes for the rec.games.frp reorganization, and figured it would be a
useful piece of code for anyone who counts votes to have.

Thanks in advance.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                  internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Throw this screen against the wall, right now!
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 14:43:34 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:

>ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:
> >So push for rec.arts.comics => rec.arts.comics.misc.  It'll probably
> >happen sooner or later anyway.

>Is it so easy?  I'm going to want to see an RFD for a rec.arts.comics
>reorganisation before I begin to listen to those who want to shoehorn
>the new manga newsgroup into rec.arts.comics.  A r.a.c reorg would
>be a good thing, certainly -- they've been saying it there for ages;
>but this in itself isn't a good argument for rec.arts.comics.manga.
>All the other reasons still stand.

    Yes, we have been saying that r.a.c needs to split. And in fact
there is currently a discussion about such a thing. Not that it will
actually get anywhere. But this isn't the point. And I personally am not
trying to shoehorn anything. I see r.a.c as a hierarchy, one that
currently holds r.a.c.marketplace(which would certainly benefit from the
traffic that a new manga readership would bring) and r.a.c.strips. I
certainly don't consider comic strips secondary to comic books, they are
completely different things. Trying to say that Calvin & Hobbs is
subordinate to X-Men just because one is a comic book and the other is a
comic srtrip is ludicrous. Personally I have gotten a lot more enjoyment
out of C&H in the last 5 years than I have from all of the Marvel comic
books that I read. What is wrong with including a manga group in this
hierarchy? 

>As an aside, the Japanese newsgroup is fj.rec.comics.  I guess the
>mainstream equivalent would be rec.manga.

    You can't compare mainstream UseNet with a regional hierarchy. They
operate under different principals. Besides if you did this, you would
basically be saying that manga is a recreational activity instead of a
graphical story-telling medium/artform.

>(When Japanese are forced to talk about manga in romaji or english, they
>tend to say "comics".)

    I don't see what this has to do with anything... Are we now talking
about the effect of English on the Japanese? I thought we were talking
about the name of a newsgroup.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: 00mddwyer@bsu-ucs.uucp
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: New Enya News Group!!
Date: 7 Apr 92 06:53:08 GMT

Here's another vote for the new Enya news group.  (Rec.music.Enya)
Mike Dwyer
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.cd,rec.music.misc
From: bill@bilver.uucp (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: RFD: removal of rec.music.cd
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 02:40:30 GMT

In article <mvrj3kj@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>bill@bilver.uucp (Bill Vermillion) writes:
>
>> When rec.music.cd started a vast majority of the people did not even
>> know what a CD was. 

>You have a slightly warped sense of time, Bill.  The group passed in
>1987, by which time I had a hundred or so discs and LPs were already on
>shaky footing. 

Lazlo - I said the "vast majority".  In 1987 I put a CD player
in my car.   I also had many disks.  I got my first machine in
1984.  But still in 1987 I still hold that the 'vast majority'
did not know what they were.   Of course the postings were
lower then - net traffic in '87  was about 6 megs a day - or
less.     


-- 
Bill Vermillion - bill@bilver.uucp 
                - ..!{peora|ge-dab|tous|tarpit}!bilver!bill
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Date: 14 Apr 92 01:40:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1992Apr14.014037.21457
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography

In article <1992Apr13.193438.5155@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> 
		  dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
>I will be willing to act as a clearing house for charter suggestions, if we
>take the details to email.  Maybe I can get a real exploder setup, but at
>the least I can forward any message on the topic I get to a mailing list a
>few times a day.  

I have just set up a mailing list alias, which is hereby volunteered for
just such a usage. 

Administrative requests to image-proc-request@skyking.oce.orst.edu.
List mail to image-proc@skyking.oce.orst.edu.

>This will be a short term
>discussion list, and will self destruct after the vote on the new group(s).

This list can be handled that way. If there is enough interest to keep
it going, it would need to move to the department mail router (and may
have to move there anyway, depending on usage, but at least it is up
now.

Along those lines, there is already a mailing list set up for users of
the ITI series of image processing hardware. Administrative requests go
to iti151-request@oce.orst.edu.
Xref: sparky news.groups:10327 sci.astro:5009
From: sw@mdavcr.mda.ca (Scott Wood)
Newsgroups: news.groups,sci.astro
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Date: 15 Apr 92 00:30:43 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: MacDonald Dettwiler, 13800 Commerce Parkway, Richmond, BC, Canada  V6V 2J3

In article <1992Apr14.150353.1696@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> turner@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (George Wm Turner) writes:
>I support the creation of the sci.imaging group.  I cannot comment on 
>the need for a news group dealing with the image processing that
>computer scientist do (AI recognition, 3D visualization, which would make sense
>naming comp.graphics.*). I would like to see a news group dealing with 
>scientific data image processing; often these images are the result of some
>kind of a sensor system rather then computer generated images.  Issues of 
>concern to me include signal/noise, signal calibration, filtering
>techniques, image convolutions, multi-spectral image registrations, & data
>reduction/compression to name a few. 

I'm not sure how you're dividing up the field of image processing. As a
computer scientist working for a remote sensing company, I've personally dealt 
with every single one of the "scientific" issues that you've listed, as well as 
all your "computer scientist" issues. I'd prefer that we have just one
group that covers ALL these areas. (Although, to clarify, 3D visualization 
belongs in comp.graphics.visualization, and most of AI recognition belongs in 
comp.ai.vision because it doesn't all deal with image processing)

>I would vote for a sci.imaging group but as interesting as 
>comp.graphics.imaging might be, my time is limited and I would probably 
>not wade through all the potiential articles.  I can see sci.imaging as 
>being a useful tool im my work.

So does this mean that if we create ONE image group (be it within sci.*
or comp.*) you wouldn't read it? That is, you want either two groups or no
group? 

scott
-- 
Scott Wood  | "`We're humanoids and we live on planetoids'.. like could
sw@mda.ca   |  they make it sound *more* dopey?!" - Mister Boffo
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:23:42 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia):
>In article <29E9804E.6856@tct.com>, chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>> In point of fact, your vote has been ignored by the majority of sites.
>
>Why are 48 % of the worldwide 45000 sites still carrying it ?

An automatic newgroup is a terrible thing.

Free clue: 52% _is_ a majority.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
      "Informix 4GL is not a 4G, and it's barely an L."  -- John Tombs
Xref: sparky news.groups:10518 soc.culture.indian.american:1820
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian.american
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Date: 17 Apr 92 14:27:31 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Apr17.000911.5937@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, chohan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Harpal Chohan) writes:
> In article <1992Apr16.221621.25427@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
> 
> 
> The purpose of conducting a vote is not to 'get it to pass'. Therein lies
> the source of all this mess. 

There is no point conducting a revote of which you know has only a 50 % chance
to pass.

It doesn't make practical sense to support such a revote especially because
the group is working reasonably fine as it is.

(with the exception of the flaming about its creation from you and your cronies,
and some anti-immigrant postings)

> >Are you now convinced that the group is needed ? Are you going to vote 
> >for it ?
> 
> I don't know. I might if you stopped acting like you owned it.

I don't think I am trying to be its owner, however I consider it is my duty
to protect it from dismissal via unreasonable means.

> 
> >How am I to believe that you have the best interests for this group in 
> >mind ? And not a showdown ?
> 
> eh? You're being melodramatic...
> 

You didn't answer my question.

> -h

Alok
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian.american,soc.culture.indian
From: chohan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Harpal Chohan)
Subject: Re: RFD2: SCIA (The new CFV... is it needed ?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 01:45:35 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.000855.23908@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>In article <92098.093348JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>
>That is the right way to do without violating the guidelines.

It's amazing that you have the gall to portray yourself as a defender
of the guidelines.

>Also I like to have the netusers decide whether a revote is required,
>not one person (Mr. Lawrence) or a few (group-advice) who I 
>don't even know the identity of.

A fair vote is usually how netusers decide. And hopefuly they're going
to get that chance, despite all your attempts to deprive them of it.

>I am even willing to conduct a quick straw poll to ask the net users

Incredible! I suggest you submit that one to rec.humor.funny.

>what they think. If the net users want a revote with a 2/3 majority
>over those who don't want a revote, then I will agree to a revote.

What gives you the impression that your agreement is necessary?

>> I am fed up with this s##t !
>
>Then get out of the kitchen !

Eh?

-h
---
No, I wouldn't.  You have every right to make a fool of yourself (and it
appears you hold that right very dear). 

						- B. Chandrasekaran (9/5/91)
                         		        (responding to an Alok V. post)
From: mito@watnxt1.ucr.edu (Jee Hoon Lee)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:36:31 GMT

In article <-+sjr1@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
> Manga are to *western* comics as judo is to boxing.  Both manga and
> western comics are comics, and both boxing and judo are martial arts. So
> put the group where it belongs. 
> 


 Ahem...your argument is specious.  How do you reach the conclusion
 that both Judo and boxing are martial arts?  Support please....


User: Jee Hoon Lee
Address: mito@watnxt2.ucr.edu
Purpose: What?
Time: Whenever

=====================================================
****************************************************

  On my way to the source,
  I felt the wind turn my
  heart;  desire left me,
  and I lay amid the grass
  and watched the clouds
  pass above.....
  ......................J.H.LEE
=====================================================
Newsgroups: news.groups