HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: BARGE into Vegas
Date: 14 Aug 92 14:26:22 GMT
Organization: Lockheed ESC, Houston

In article <JACOBS.92Aug13201524@cells.cs.utah.edu> jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs) writes:
>
>OK, this sucker is shaping up into a definite net.event. 

If we had laptops with cellular modems we could march into, say, Vegas
World, power 'em up and read rec.gambling while playing Crapless Craps,
the Big Money wheel, or See Through (the cards but not the 1-100 spread
needed to beat the game) Blackjack.

>What about the WOMEN?  Come on, we know you're out there.  Your not going
>to let the men have all the fun, are you?  Patti -- get someone to tend
>the fish and come join us at the poker tables.  Who else?  Surely you don't
>want Nurse Hack to fend off all us unruly men with only Edmund to defend
>her!
Actually, it's Dr. Hack, board-certified Anesthesiologist, gas-passer
par excellance, dispenser of more wierd drugs than you can shake a stick
at.  Come to think of it one of them, Versed, could come in handy. It
relaxes and sedates you, and best of all, it trashes your short term
memory so that you don't remember anything that happens while you are on
it.

She is somewhat apprehensive at the prospect of being the only female
there, so all you female rec.gamblers - Come on down!
>
>It appears that several BARGErs will be arriving on or before Wednesday 8/19.
>Perhaps we should get together for an informal "opening ceremony" of some
>kind.  Maybe we can find a small pit.critter to feed to the tigers at the
>Mirage or to sacrifice to the volcano, something like that :-)  Suggestions?
>(No, the Michael Flying event won't be scheduled until later in the week)

You could burn John Patrick in effigy, and get the Frontier strikers to
join you.....

-- 
| Edmund Hack - Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Co. - Houston, TX
| hack@aio.jsc.nasa.gov    SpokesPersonp(Me,or(NASA,LESC)) = NIL
| "No the game never ends when your whole
|       world depends on the turn of a friendly card"
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: irwin@uvmark.uucp (Frank Irwin)
Subject: Re: BJ: Shuffles (was Re: Vegas trip report, 8/7-8/9)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 17:11:36 GMT
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug17.174154.16152@ichips.intel.com> bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) writes:
>
>I've never, ever seen a casino where they didn't wash a new
>deck.  In fact, I've never seen a casino where the deck was
>prewashed.  Typically, part of the side-work for a dealer
>is "setting decks", or sitting at a table with fifty or so
>new decks making sure that all the card are there, that
>they're all in the correct order, that they're in perfect
>condition, and that the jokers etc. are removed, so that
>when the deck comes to the table the dealer merely needs to
>fan the cards and let the customers watch as she pretends
>to verify them.
>
>But then, poker decks typically get washed every hand, and
>the BJ-o-matics in the group are more likely have seen an
>unwashed deck than I have.
>
>>Cards in (partial) new deck order spell BAD news for a player, according to
>>simulations run by Arnold Snyder.  The effects depend upon seat position,
>>with the first seat being the best.
>
>Probably because the probability of getting paint
>is highest, there.

Really?  I always assumed that those dealers were checking *used* decks,
for things such as missing cards, etc.  I've never noticed floordweebs
bringing pre-opened decks to the table, they always open them there.  I
remember one floorcretin who had a pretty cool move that popped the paper
seal on the card box with a single motion.
-- 
 ============================================================================
 Frank Irwin                   | My nomination for rec.gambling motto:
 Vmark Software, Inc.          |  "WTH?  HODYGTV, A?  AIR?
 irwin%uvmark@merk.com         |     - Timothy Whalen (twhalen@nunki.usc.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Idea for Group Trip to LV
From: jfeldhouse@miavx3.mid.muohio.edu (Jim Feldhouse)
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:58:14 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: as little as possible

Perhaps a fun dare for a group of blackjack players
would be to make up some t-shirts with just a big letter
C on the front and back.  Go to a casino you don't like
wearing said shirts and play blackjack in a very suspicious
manner.  Wild betting spreads, furtive hands signals to
the other players to change tables, everyone converging on
one table ocassionally.

How long do you think it could last?
jim
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)
Subject: Re: BJ: Shuffles (was Re: Vegas trip report, 8/7-8/9)
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:41:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.042706.20050@kronos.arc.nasa.gov> hall@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Hall) writes:
>and this is it.  For new cards, most casinos "wash" the cards (randomly mix
>flat on the table), and then perform the standard casino shuffle *twice* or
>more.  But some simply do the standard shuffle once, with no wash beforehand.

I've never, ever seen a casino where they didn't wash a new
deck.  In fact, I've never seen a casino where the deck was
prewashed.  Typically, part of the side-work for a dealer
is "setting decks", or sitting at a table with fifty or so
new decks making sure that all the card are there, that
they're all in the correct order, that they're in perfect
condition, and that the jokers etc. are removed, so that
when the deck comes to the table the dealer merely needs to
fan the cards and let the customers watch as she pretends
to verify them.

But then, poker decks typically get washed every hand, and
the BJ-o-matics in the group are more likely have seen an
unwashed deck than I have.

>Cards in (partial) new deck order spell BAD news for a player, according to
>simulations run by Arnold Snyder.  The effects depend upon seat position,
>with the first seat being the best.

Probably because the probability of getting paint
is highest, there.

				--Blair
				  "Not planning on spending a lot more
				   time at the BJ tables this trip
				   because I'll be chained to a poker
				   table working off my discounts...
				   but if'n you gotta be chained, do
				   it at the Mirage. :-) :-)"
From: davem@county.lmt.mn.org (David Mackmiller)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: BJ machines
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:49:53 GMT
Organization: LaserMaster R&D, Minneapolis, MN  USA


Speaking of BJ machines (well, Mike was), I noticed something
interesting this weekend.  The machines here in MN have HS rules,
among them: pushes go to the "bank".  Winner of next hand wins the
bank, too.  Well, some people may push on their last bet and just
leave (either broke or too stupid).  So now when I walk by the BJ
machines, I always check the bank.  Yesterday, I found two machines
side-by-side each with four units each in the bank.  Of course I 
played them each once (won 'em too).

So some interesting deviations arise here.  Since you may just be
playing your one unit to win several in the bank, some of the more
aggressive plays are out. For example, I wouldn't dream of doubling-
down (double-downing?) my 10 against a dealer 8, for fear of getting a
low card and losing all that gravy in the bank.  On the other hand,
(and this happened yesterday) I did DD on 11 against dealer 4, since
I was only going to take one card anyway.  Also I suppose one would
split 8-8 against dealer 7+, but I wonder about 6 or less.  Come to
think of it, I don't know who would win the bank if you won one and
lost one on a split.

Is this interesting enough to do a basic strategy for machines which
have $$ in the bank?  
DaveMac
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads 
   to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction.  Let us 
   pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.    - Woody Allen
------------------------------+-----------------------+--------------------
mail: davem@county.lmt.mn.org | flames: alt.good.news | Opinions=mine alone
------------------------------+-----------------------+--------------------
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: schow@bqneh3.bnr.ca (Stanley T.H. Chow)
Subject: Re: Bet Doubling Method
Organization: Bell Northern Research Ltd, Ottawa
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:41:57 GMT

In article <jason.23@dcs.umd.edu> jason@dcs.umd.edu (Jason Steinhorn) writes:
>Actually, we were just talking about this at lunch.
>Apparantly, the Horseshoe in LV just changed it's rule which provided for NO
>table maximums at any of their table games.  This is one case where this 
>method WOULD work, PROVIDING you had enough capital to endure an Xth standard
>deviation loss streak.  Also, places like Caesar's Palace, would most likely
>give you a table with no bet limits if you were a high roller and asked (
>until they figured out what you were doing).

When the casino figures out what you were doing, they should start giving you
lavish comps. The only way you can win is to start out with more money then
the casino (even if you assume even bets ignoring the house edge).

--
Stanley Chow            InterNet: schow@BNR.CA
Bell Northern Research  UUCP:     ..!uunet!bnrgate!bqneh3!schow
(613) 763-2831
Me? Represent other people? Don't make them laugh so hard.
From: wct1+@pitt.edu (William C Tom)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: poker software
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:49:46 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

I'm looking for "game-like" poker software for a PC, preferably
in a Windows-version.  This is for recreation rather than
exhaustive analysis, though some degree of sophistication would
be nice.

Has anyone tried out the new "World Series of Poker" game?  
Any opinions?



Bill

Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: hall@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Hall)
Subject: Re: Betting both sides to get Comps
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 00:31:21 GMT

In article <183110@pyramid.pyramid.com> breid@pyrhard2.eng.pyramid.com (Bill Reid) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.164936.9248@ichips.intel.com> bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) writes:
>>In article <183065@pyramid.pyramid.com> breid@pyrhard2.eng.pyramid.com (Bill Reid) writes:

[munch]

The simple fact is that the casinos keep track of how much action you give
them, and they have a very precise formula for how much to kick back in
comps.  In terms of $$$ worth from the customer's perspective, it's
generally at least 0.25% of the action, and in terms of $$$ cost from
the casino's perspective certainly does not approach the 1.5%-5% or so
of action that they expect to make from a customer (depending on the
game and stupidity of the customer, which are also taken into account.)
It is not their intent to lose money on comped customers, even
after the white tigers are fed.  If a comped customer, even an ultra high
roller in a suite with the works, asks for a comp that exceeds the comp
credit accumulated to date, he will quickly find that there are limits to
the casino's generosity. (Now there are some times when they violate this
policy by giving comps slightly before they are earned, but in that case
the customer usually is informed of exactly how many hours at what minimums
are expected.)

In the example I gave, if you want to argue that the loaded cost of the
$100 value comp was more than $25, fine, whatever.  It certainly doesn't
cost $300 as was suggested.  Maybe the loaded cost was $50 or $75, who
cares? The casino would set up its comping policy such that it did not lose
money on the comps.  This is also why a casino would not (or at least
should not) care if players are insane enough to bet pass and don't pass
or red and black.  Their accountants have figured out what percentage
of action they can kick back as comps period.

Of course, if a casino recognizes a card counter, the casino will not comp
him, nor usually even allow him to play in Nevada, since they expect to
lose money to him.  However, good card counters are a miniscule percentage
of their customers, and it is often difficult to distinguish a paying
customer from a card counter, so the casinos wind up comping a few
card counters and barring a lot of clueless gamblers.  They still
make a helluva lot of money, as anyone visiting Vegas must conclude.

-- 
Michael Hall            \"...the physicist is often in the same position as the
NASA Ames Research Center\ gambler... Every time that he reasons by induction,
hall@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov \he requires the calculus of probabilities"-Poincare'
From: jimp@jeeves.ucsd.edu (Jim Piercy)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Blackjack in San Diego
Date: 17 Aug 92 06:19:39 GMT


Someone recently posted an article about blackjack at the Viejas Casino
in Alpine (about 20 miles east of San Diego), so I decided to check it
out last night.  I got there at about 10:00PM and they had all(?) eight
tables going.  The tables were pretty crowded (up to seven players per
table), but there were a few seats available.  As far as I could tell
each game had the same rules:

	6 deck shoes
	$3 - $25 limits
	50 cent collection per player per hand
	dealer stands on all 17's
	double down on 10 or 11 only
	no double down after split
	no reslpitting aces
	players may act as the "Banker" for one shoe
	Banker must have at least $200
	after each shoe the option to bank passes to the next player

I watched for a total of about 15 minutes.  I saw about 70% penetration.
It looked like there were only one or two players per table with enough
money to bank.  The play seemed pretty good.  It also appeared that the
Banker could accept larger wagers at his/her descretion.  The average
bet was about $10.

I didn't play because I didn't think my average card counting abilities
could overcome the rules, _especially_ the 50 cent collection and I didn't
have enough with me to bank, even if I thought it might be worth it.

-Jim Piercy

Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Big August rec.gambling excursion
In-reply-to: hack@arabia.uucp's message of 12 Aug 1992 19:07:27 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
	<1992Aug12.190727.14510@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:35:09

In article <1992Aug12.190727.14510@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack) writes:
> In article <1992Aug12.173313.13551@walter.bellcore.com> Jonathan Rosenberg <jxr@thumper.bellcore.com> writes:
>>By my count, there's at least 9 rec.gamblers (including me + some others
>>who may want to remain nameless) who will be in LV sometime during the
>>weekend of 8/22-23.

I count close to a dozen.  I'm making a list of who's where to help
coordinate the panties for a certain rec.gambler's luggage :-)  (Don't
panic guys, I'm not going to post it--I know some of you want to remain
anonymous).

>>
>>But, 1 group "meeting" seems to be called for.  Anyone want to suggest a
>>place (a craps table seems promising) & time (preferably a wee hour on
>>Sunday morning, say)?
>>
> The Horseshoe might be a good place - we could retire to the restauraunt
> for a Steak Dinner feast.  In addition, they have $1/10x craps.

If they do to their steaks what they did to their lobster tails last
summer, then I'll pass.  I'm trying to cut down on culinary latex....

> Of
> course, if the BJ weenies (I'm a semi-weenie :-), I play Craps also!)
> object, perhaps we could meet at the Frontier for great BJ conditions.
> If the Labourites object to the Frontier, we could meet at the El
> Cortez, take over a BJ table, all change our bets at the same time, 
> and all get barred at once!  Or we could all go to Vegas World.....
>
> Seriously, I'd suggest the Horseshoe for Downtown or one of the medium
> size places on the Strip (Maxim, Frontier, etc.).  I'd also prefer an hour 
> closer to midnight than 5 AM.

Let's see, 5AM minus one hour is 4AM....nah, still too early :-)

How about 2AM Sat. morning at the Frontier, at a craps table.  We'll
alternate between "pass" and "don't pass", all in unison, and throw the
dice at the dealer's towers of chips, yelling "PRESTO!" whenever they get
knocked down.  Pity that Irwin won't be there to recreate his legendary
commode ceremony.

"We're sorry, you people are welcome to play anything but craps...."

Followed by $2.99 Steak & Eggs (or whatever)....

> I'll volunteer my wife to take blood pressures, do CPR and trauma care
> if Steve J., Mike H., and Bill R. all end up in the same room at the same
> time.

I'll be going out of my way to annoy Michael at every opportunity... hoping
to get videos of his famous 2X bet on counts of -6 :-) :-)  (actually,
I'll be too busy playing poker).

Anybody for a _real_ rec.gambling Hold'em tournament?
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Never teach a card counter to sing.  It wastes your time and gets the card
 counter barred."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: funky@nevada.edu (MATTHEW KAPHAN)
Subject: Poker Simulators
Originator: funky@redrock.nevada.edu
Organization: University of Nevada System Computing Services
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 18:34:49 GMT

Could someone tell me where I can get some poker programs, either 7 card
stud or hold 'em or hi-lo.  Anything.  I remember a post about them, and I 
tried to get them from an FTP site but couldn't find the program.  Thanks
in advance. 

 
                                                  -Matthew

No .signature yet :<
From: irwin@uvmark.uucp (Frank Irwin)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Big August rec.gambling excursion
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:28:25 GMT
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug13.175110.11342@ichips.intel.com> bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) writes:
>
>				--Blair
>				  "AIEEEEEEE!"
>				  -F.I., 1st BARGE re-enactment festival

Actually, that was at the 3rd Annual Wilding Brothers Thanksgiving Gambling
Trip.

				--Frank
				  "I was an honorary Wilding Brother,
				   but I didn't get to wear the lacy
				   underwear outside my clothes, so no
				   one thought I was a Wilding Brother."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Big August rec.gambling excursion
In-reply-to: twhalen@nunki.usc.edu's message of 13 Aug 92 23:26:01 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:24:52

In article <l8lrs9INN8m4@nunki.usc.edu> twhalen@nunki.usc.edu (Timothy Whalen) writes:
>
> There will be Tim Whalens attending the BARGE fests, through the
> courtesy of the Trop "new gamblers" special.

Great!  We're up to 15, so we're talking a bigger bash than last year.
Maybe we should converge on GBC and demand a group discount :-)

> I'll bring a corkboard so Steve Jacobs can post incessantly during
> the party, so he doesn't suffer withdrawal.

No way!  I go gambling to get away from all this shi^H^H^H stuff.
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Never teach a card counter to sing.  It wastes your time and gets the card
 counter barred."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: manray@nevada.edu (MIKE STEVENSON)
Subject: BARGE
Originator: manray@helios.nevada.edu
Organization: University of Nevada System Computing Services
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:39:48 GMT


Now if you all would bring yer laptop/modems you could keep in touch thru
my bbs.  It's still got some rough edges at this time and may be just as
well that don't. Sure would feel useful for a change.... Anyway, I'm in the
phone book if anyone wants to call voice. Another potential meeting area and
out of the casino's "eye" could be a place called FatBurgers....newer neon
looking joint between Aladin and the Trop... I was in there a while back and
burgers were almost as good as those at the Hard Rock Cafe.  Just a thought.
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: hall@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Hall)
Subject: Re: Want to buy casino hardware!
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:51:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.133748.19060@nntp.hut.fi> t33908p@puukko.hut.fi (Ari Erkki Siitonen) writes:

>My friend is building his own private casino, and he asked me to find
>out where he could get quality Black Jack and Roulette Tables.
>If you have some extra ones you do not need hanging around, or you know
>some manufacturers/dealers of the trade, please fax the information
>to number +358-0251578.

Please post the information, as I know at least one rec.gambler who
would be interested.

I went to one store in Las Vegas on Las Vegas Boulevard.  I can't remember
the name.  Gambler's Supply Store or something.  I did pick up catalogs and
can get details if desired, but the shipping charges to Finland would be
a nightmare (though they do ship anywhere, I think.)

Anyway, they had 3 or 4 models of blackjack tables, ranging from
~$300 (a joke) to ~$3000 (sigh, this is the one I want for my
apartment, since it doubles as a bar with a glass top, but the
price is prohibitive.)

-- 
Michael Hall            \"...the physicist is often in the same position as the
NASA Ames Research Center\ gambler... Every time that he reasons by induction,
hall@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov \he requires the calculus of probabilities"-Poincare'
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: emmerik@titan.trl.OZ.AU (Mike VanEmmerik)
Subject: Re: Betting both sides to get Comps
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:42:26 GMT

Umm. Of course, Steve is right; the 24.8% hold figure I was quoting is
not related to expectation. I was equating drop with action; of course,
the same chips will be bet over and over (unless you lose constantly :)
so action >> bet. Sorry about that.

The way I pictured variance affecting a player's performance is to think
of his balance as being a sawtooth slowly decaying in time, at the rate
of expectation (in percent) units down each 100 hands on average, but
the peak to peak value being several standard deviations (much greater
than expectation, as we all know). Now, a lot of players have a bankroll
so small that any one of the negative peaks would wipe him out (for an
overall sitting's result of -100%) a good deal more frequently than when
he stops up a bit or even breaking even. I have seen people roll up to
$2 tables with $20; naturally the dealer starts to get him silver. "No,
all reds please". Not quite Kelly betting! Most of the time, variance
will wipe out such a player, unless he is quite lucky early on.

With small variance, most such players would only be down about the house
percentage (expectation) times the number of hands (in units, not
dollars). My point is that with variance being so much larger than
expectation, and larger than most average players realise and bankroll
for, they will stop playing at -100% some of the time, when with a
larger bankroll
they would (on average) have made ground again and finished nearer to
expectation times number of hands. This is a non linear effect, always
to the player's disadvantage. Therefore variance does make a difference.

However, the 24.8% hold has nothing to do with it.


--
Mike Van Emmerik        \ Life is too short to 
emmerik@titan.trl.oz.au \ play it suboptimally 
Newsgroups: rec.gambling