HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grant@bluemoon.rn.com (Grant DeLorean)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: General Shotgun questions
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:27:56 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS (614/868-9984 = T2500 | 998[02] = HST DS)

jalden@coos.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes:

#    Just got a Remington 870 (somewhat worn, but very serviceable).
#It's been a long time since I used a shotgun, and then it was only to
#shoot trap.  This one is going to be used for home defense, trap & skeet
#and perhaps hunting, in that order.

 I have had one for 16 years, it is a wonderful pump gun.

#    I have some questions.  First, how do I measure the barrel length
#for legal purposes?  Measuring from where the barrel starts just in
#front of the breech I get 25 inches.  (I got a good deal, so I was
#willing to accept a long barrel).

 Breach face to muzzle.

#    I'd like to get it cut down to somewhere near the legal length in
#the not-too-distant future.  I know that this decreases its utility as a
#hunting weapon, but are there still types of hunting where this doesn't
#matter as much?  Can I compensate with a choke (right now it's wide
#open)?  (I've got a friend who's going to teach me to hunt this fall
#and I've taken a hunter safety course, so all you hunters can stop
#wincing now.  :)  Obviously, for close-quarters movement a shorter
#barrel (and open choke) is much better.  How does shortening the barrel
#effect trap and skeet?

 The optimum length for velocity is 24 inches, so the shorter barrel
won't help you in hunting or skeet (and forget it for trap).

 Before you cut it, make sure you don't have one of the older 870's (like
mine). The newer ones have choke tubes, the older ones easily swappable
barrels. Get a short barrel with an open choke for your house defense
use and pop on the longer barrel back on for hunting and maybe some clay
busting. Maybe you want to get the short barrel and another long barrel
with a different choke than the one you have now. I have two long barrels
for mine, one full and one modified cylinder for different hunting uses...

#    Any idea how much getting it cut down will cost?  It's got an

 New barrels are around $100 for it, so...
-- 
\   Grant DeLorean    - IHMSA Life Member -   (grant@bluemoon.rn.com)   /

               "Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex."
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: mini 14 info: thanks
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:19:38 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

1" or 2" at 200 yards with a mini-14?
NOT!!!
From: les@ulysses.att.com (Leslie Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:33:42 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ, USA


In article <52863@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-13.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
#You could always hit the bear with a blast of 5% Capstun and see how well
#it can chase humans it can't see, or engulf it in flames with a shotgun
#shell of DRAGON'S BREATH(tm).

Or scare him to death with Termie's replica .45 :-)


  - Leslie Johnson  (les@ulysses.att.com) 1+908-582-5493
       "One Bell System - It Works"
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Small Arms reference book on sale
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:04:34 GMT
Organization: Computing Center, North Carolina State University


  This is a wonderful reference book!  It has a huge amount of
information, given in thorough detail, and the sort of book you normally
would have to go to the library to consult since most people wouldn't
shell out the $50 price.  However it is on sale from Barnes & Noble (a
remainder type sale, so it very well may also be available in local
bookstores) for $16.95.  At that price it is hard to resist.  (I got it
from them in a previous sale, along with another of Ezell's books which
doesn't seem to be in their Spring Book Sale Catalog.)  If you want to
order it from them it is catalog number 1682897 on page 19 of their
catalog  C49X.  They also have a $4.95 shipping/insurance charge per
order and charge sales tax for CA, CT, MA, MI, MN, NJ, NY, PA.  You
can order by phone 24 hours/7 days 201-767-7079 or mail address
126 Fifth Ave, New York, NY 10011-5666.

  If you've been looking for a gift for yourself, but can't afford that
new gun, this is it!

  Here's a start on a book review - I'll finish it sometime and post
it.

Small Arms of the World, 12th revised edition
A Basic Manual of Small Arms
Edward Clinton Ezell (with the research assistance of Thomas M. Pegg)
A Completely new and revised version of the classic work by W. H. B.
Smith.
Stackpole Books, Harrisburg 1983 (reprinted 1990)
ISBN 0-88029-601-1  8 1/2" x 11" 894 pages hardbound
Publisher's price $49.95
The dust jacket says, "An Encyclopedia of Global Weapons - over 3500
Entries"

Part I  Small Arms Developments since 1945

1 Rifle and Carbine Development

2 Machine Gun Development

3 Submachine Gun Development

4 Handgun Developments

5 Special Purpose Weapons Development


Part II Description of Small Arms by Nation and a Basic Manual of
Current Weapons [lists all the small arms in use by the armed forces of
each nation, giving descriptions, specs, pictures, exploded drawings,
principles of operation, field stripping information, etc.  Also some 
info on obsolete small arms.]

Chapters 6 (Argentina) - 50 (Yugoslavia)

51 Small Arms for Outdoor Sports
51 Small Arms Ammunition
53 Selected Bibliography
   Appendix [English to metric conversions for small arms]
   Index [you can actually find things!, 5 1/2 pages of three columns
    per page, with small print]

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mini 14 info
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:28:36 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <52748@mimsy.umd.edu> thi@mips2.ma30.bull.com (Saigon Smuggler) writes:
:In article <52713@mimsy.umd.edu> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
:#I just picked up a Ruger Mini 14 Ranch Rifle at a gun show, and I'd be
:#interested in hearing from other Mini 14 owners out there about a couple of
:#questions I have.
:#I've followed the discussion about how different rifling twists affect the
:#stability of .223 bullets. Is this an issue for the Mini 14? If so, what
:#type of ammo should I use and avoid? 
:
:The Mini-14 has a 1-in-10 twist.  Compare to the HBAR's 1-in-7 and AUG's 
:1-in-9 twists.  With the 1-in-9 twist, the AUG handles the SS-109 ammo 
:beautifully.  Since I have never used SS-109 in a Mini-14, I cannot comment
:on whether the 1-in-10 twist can handle the extra weight of the SS-109.

I cannot comment on the older Mini-14's beyond saying that a police
firearms instructor that I know said that they had a twist of
1-in-12,
but the stainless steel one
that I have, purchased about 2 years ago has a 1-in-7 twist and shoots
the SS-109 ammo very well, certainly no worse than the 55 gr. bullets,
and I believe better.
:

Lee

"Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei."

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: PEN GUN
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:46:18 GMT
Organization: Computing Center, North Carolina State University

In article <53077@mimsy.umd.edu> wwarf@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (wayne john warf) writes:
# ...
#I'm not sure of the specifics, see 27 CFR 179, Code of Federal Regulations;

  This makes it easy to track down - in 179.11 Meaning of Terms, we
find that "Any other weapon" includes just about everything which
shoots and can be concealed but which isn't a pistol or revolver.
Then "Pistol" includes having: "A short stock designed to be gripped
by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the
bore(s)."  "Revolver" is "of the pistol type".

  So clearly a Pen Gun is not a pistol/revolver, and so must be
"any other weapon".

#the source I'm using cites this as the source of the restriction. Every
#time I've seen Pen or Cane guns advertised, they have been listed as 
#NFA "any other weapons," but I'm not sure how they fit into the 
#definition of "any other weapon" in 26 USC 5845e.

  This is just about the same (maybe exactly the same) as in 179.11,
but I don't see a definition of "pistol".

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk (Codesmiths)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Enfield: Which One?
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:27:21 GMT

# The #4 MkI(I) is a very nice gun.  They're accurate and reliable.

# If you pick and choose you'll get one with a one CLICK adjustible
# [rear sight] for elevation.

Go for a No. 4, in preference to a No. 3. There is little in it, but
the sights *are* better.

If you want more, a few gunsmiths make additional sights for them.
Parker do a rear aperture sight, with click adjust for both elevation
& wind. They also make a tube foresight for it. Each costs around 30
UK pounds.

    Alfred J. Parker
    Armoury Works
    348 Moseley Road
    Birmingham
    England
    B12  9AZ
    021 440 1480

Andy Dingley    dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk    +44 91 230 1695
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: removing primer
Date: 10 Apr 92 23:20:44 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <52933@mimsy.umd.edu>, edsr!kjs@uunet.UU.NET (Kevin Sedota) writes:
|> what is the safest way to remove a live primer from a case. 

Use your decapping die, but wear eye protection, and throw a couple
of old blankets over your press.  Clear everyone from the area, and
close the door - those primer cups and anvils can really fly.  Go
*easy* with the press stroke, and, if the primer doesn't pop, treat
it carefully, as you might have sensitized it.  Pick it up with
pliers, and dump it in a soup can with some motor oil, and leave it
there.  Don't remove your eye protection until the primer is
either popped, or in the motor oil for a minute or two.

Some people recommend trying to neutralize the primer in the case
with oil, which works just fine, but the case (and your die!) will
need to be degreased afterwards.

|> A friend suggested I put it in the gun and fire it.

Well, it's not completely likely to go off, and you can jam
revolvers by firing empty cases in them (you didn't specify which
gun so I assumed worse case).

Another hint:  when you have a case that is non-reusable (cracked
or such), crush it with pliers so there is no possibility of reuse.
Also, keep the brass and primer cups for recycling - I wind up with
$100 worth every now and again.

Put the kids to work whenever you go shooting, scrounging .22 brass
and centerfire brass that has been abandoned - a little cash for
the college fund, keeps them occupied, and is good for the
environment and the image of shooters.

When I was a kid, we used to dig in the backstops for bullets, and
reuse them for casting.  Of course, that was after we walked 14
miles to the range through 6 foot snow drifts :-).

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
"You are getting hung up unnecessarily by the use of the words (and
their associated meanings).  What you should be doing is _ignoring_
the actual words...the words themselves are completely unimportant."
--brian@coombs.anu.edu.au
From: tporczyk@novell.com (Tony Porczyk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:31:01 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
#Its the video by "Second Chance" body armor!
#[...]
#show that they do not "blow up". All in all a very good video.

Would anyone have an address handy where I could order that video?
Thanks,

Tony
From: brock@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Timothy L. Brock)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Skeet/Trap Guns...Help!
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:12:05 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor

In article <53244@mimsy.umd.edu> M20069@MBVM.mitre.org (Joseph H. Downing) writes:
#Are there any Skeet/Trap shooters out there?  If so, could you please explain
#the difference between the weapons used for each?
# 
#Thanks in Advance,
#Joe Downing

 I don't claim to be an expert but I'll gladly share my point of view with you.
Both trap and skeet can be shot with about any gauge shotgun but a 12 gauge is 
most common. I believe to shoot international skeet competitions .410, 28, 20
and 12 gauges are required. Skeet guns are typically shorter (26 - 28 in) in 
length than a trap gun allowing you to swing the gun quickly. Guns are 
typically choked with Skeet/Skeet or at least an Imp Cylinder.Most guns are 
over/unders and some auto loaders but a few people will also shoot a pump gun.
I prefer an O/U but they cost a lot of money. Trap guns are have longer barrel
lengths (>28 in) and choked modified or tighter, typically full. O/U again are
a good choice but most trap guns are single barrels. I believe competition
shoots require you to shoot doubles but I not sure. Trap guns chokes are 
machined through the length of the barrel as opposed to a field gun being only
choked at the very end. This gives you excellant consistancy in your pattern/
shot string. Trap guns will usually have a "built-in lead" which allows you to
get on clay and shoot without trying to compensate for lead. Shotshells should
also be considered and are different for trap and skeet.
From: lrf@genrad.com (Larry R. Forest)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SAVAGE
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:46:38 GMT
Organization: GenRad, Inc.


  I just picked up a Savage model 5 in 22cal. The receiver is tapped for
a scope but i want a good peep sight. The end of the receiver is grooved
for a peep sight but these sights seem to be alittle hard to come by.
  Any info on this gun would be helpful. Savage model 5 bolt action, tube
feed. There is no serial number so it should be pre1968 according to the
dealer. Any info or leads on where i can get a peep sight would be helpful.


Disclaimer: These opinions are mine not those of GENRAD.
*******************************************************************************
Just a technician fortunate enough to have an account.
*******************************************************************************

Thanks from Larry.
From: thi@mips2.ma30.bull.com (Saigon Smuggler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:31:02 GMT
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc.

In article <52724@mimsy.umd.edu> asbestos@nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson) writes:
#
#If you could carry fully-automatic, wouldn't a whole lot of something like
#9mm do the trick?  Can a polar bear can stand up to an accurate burst from a
#submachine gun?  (Full auto may not be practical for this person, but I'm
#curious.) 

Well, if all those little bullets fail to penetrate the thick fat/muscle
layer then the bear will stand a good chance of chasing you, if it does
not freak out of pain from those little bullets.

Most likely, the 9mm/.45 would fail to penetrate the hide/fat/muscle of
a big bear.

-tt
From: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk (Codesmiths)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .38 & .357 (Was Re: Is a .22 a humane weapon? (No.))
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:06:08 GMT

# Similarly, the .38 and .357 pistol rounds are the same diameter.
# (.356 inches, contrasting with 9mm and .380, which are both .354 inches.

That much I knew, but can anyone tell me *why* .38 became known as
that ?  Historically, which came first ? .357 or .38 ?

          Andy Dingley    dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk
From: boardman%cancer.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Bob Boardman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .38 & .357 (Was Re: Is a .22 a humane weapon? (No.))
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:29:45 GMT
Organization: UNM Cancer Center

In article <52754@mimsy.umd.edu>, tnev2@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
#### Similarly, the .38 and .357 pistol rounds are the same diameter.
#### (.356 inches, contrasting with 9mm and .380, which are both .354 inches.
###
###That much I knew, but can anyone tell me *why* .38 became known as
###that ?  Historically, which came first ? .357 or .38 ?
##
#
#	The 38 special got its name from the diameter of it's case.  I seem 
#to recall that it measures .375" which is rounded up to .38.  At the type it
#was introduced, it was competing against a lot of .44-.45 caliber rounds
#so S+W wanted to make it sound as big al possible.
#
	I believe that the ".38" designation dated back to earlier rimmed
  .38 rounds which had a bullet the same diameter as the case, similar to
  current .22 LR rounds.  When the design changed to use a bullet matching
  the inner diameter of the case rather than the outer diameter, they kept
  the .38 designation of the case, rather than changing it to .36.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
|**I _AM_ a member of a well-regulated militia - self-regulated, that is!!!!**|
| Bob Boardman,Albuquerque,New Mexico - NRA LIFE, NMSSA, Zia Rifle&Pistol Club|
|        internet:boardman@cancer.unm.edu    bitnet:BOARDMAN@UNMB             |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A calibre question
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:56:02 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

In article <53306@mimsy.umd.edu> you write:
= specialist who briefed me, they have to be sure of their shot, because the
= barrel heats up enough with one shot to change the point of impact 2 feet at
= 2000 meters.

In a way, that actually doesn't sound *too* bad--if my estimate is
correct, that's just a bit more than a minute of arc.  Of course if
the target is only *1* foot.......  :)



-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov
From: iftccu!bressler@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Revolver Hammer Shrouds...
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:31:20 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


#The argument that in a close confrontation I won't have time nor
#inclination to cock the hammer and use the revolver in single-action
#mode was addressed in the article which made sense to me.  In my mind,
#it could happen that my side arm jams while on duty which is the whole
#justification for me wanting to have a backup revolver.

Some of the other points in this post have gotten quite a lot of
response, but I'd like to comment on one point that has been largely
ignored.  My position is that for defense purposes single action
shooting is not practical.  First of all a few comments from a recent
Massad Ayoob seminar that I attended.  Mr. Ayoob's opinion is that
single action shooting is largely a form of 'ballistic masturbation.'
It gives you a nice warm feeling at the time, but isn't really of much
value.

1) In a self defense situation you probably won't remember anyway.  If
you do, you will probably fumble it.

2) If you have time for a careful single action shot, you probably have
time to get away or behind cover, both of which are more useful.
(Hostage rescue situations and so on, might justify such a careful shot,
but are VERY rare and assumes that your firearm REALLY has a better
single action than double action.)

3) Liability increases because most of the public has the idea that
single action gives you some sort of 'hair' trigger.

Ayoob goes so far as to recommend having a smith remove the single
action notch from the trigger!  Indeed, there is a lot of misinformation
as to what you can and cannot do to a trigger.  For example, removing
the single action notch and smoothing up the action are not liabilities.
Both make the gun safer.  The first because you are removing a real or
imagined hair trigger, the second because you are making the gun shoot
more accurately.  "Your Honor, the defendant spent additional hard
earned money to help ensure that his shots would not go wild and
endanger innocent bystanders...."  What you DO NOT want to do is lighten
the trigger excessively.  The best bet is to go for the type of 'duty
tune' that many police departments use.

That said, I can offer a personal data point.  I had been told for years
that I could shoot more accurately and faster if I worked on my double
action shooting more.  Additionally, most of the single actions on 'out
of the box' guns aren't really any better than the double action pulls,
they are just shorter.  After finally being convinced to try it, I saw
my Tuesday night 'fun shoot' scores rise by about 10% in only two weeks.
This was with a completely stock N frame smith.  On the occasions when I
use my model 28 for NRA centerfire bullseye shooting, I now manage to
shoot in the low 500's as opposed to the high 300's I was shooting
before.  When I get my Davis tuned model 14 back, I expect to bring that
up to the mid 500's.

Give it a try.  It does work.

Rick.
From: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 145 gr. Sivertip
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:12:58 GMT


# Any particular reason that you can't handload to the specs of the
# Silvertip?  I know that you can't get the bullet, but it seems to me
# that you could do as well by handload a generic 125 grain HP to the
# same velocity (no offence to the Silvertip crowd out there).

The 145 gr. Silvertips are commercially available here. A similar handload
can be a good practice ammunition however. Anyway, I am going to look very
carefully at this importation stuff. Maybe there is still a way to legally
get these 125 grains ammo. I'll post when I get new information.

Emmanuel Baechler.
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne
MA-Ecublens
CH-1015 Lausanne	Switzerland
Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
e-mail: baechler@liasun6.epfl.ch
Standard Disclaimer

Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotguns vs Handguns (was: Gun Recommendations Sought)
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:30:48 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <52833@mimsy.umd.edu> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
## 
#To which one would simply respond,
#"Well, I used JHPs because I was really did not want to have bullets 
#going through an attacker(/rapist/murderer/copkiller/etc) through a wall
#or two and into my neighbor's body ... Are you suggesting I should have 
#used a bullet that would have killed both the attacker(/rapist/murderer/
#copkiller/etc) AND a neighbor?"

Actually, a better answer would be, "I used XYZ brand w/ abc specs.
because they were recommended by the police chief/used by our local
police/or something similar."  Another good answer might be that the
particular bullet you used is the most accurate of all the types of
bullets you tried in your gun.  The penetration argument would be a
bit hard to use comparing JHP's vs. SWC's; it could be used to explain
why you didn't use FMJ/hardball, but you wouldn't use that anyway.

#
#Not only would this refute his stupid claim, but it would also tend to 
#lean the jury in favor of believing you overall -- especially if you
#demonostrated the prostitutor's ignorance several times.
#

It would be dangerous to assume that a prosecutor doesn't know more
than you do about the issues.  A good lawyer will never ask a question
they don't know the answer to and they'll definitely do their homework.

BDW