HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: martillo@nero.clearpoint.com (Joachim Martillo)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: "SALEM" (Peace)!!! means "MURDER"!!!!!!!!!!!
Summary: Unauthorized Violation of the Prime Directive
Date: 2 Oct 92 20:52:07 GMT
Organization: United Federation of Planets, Division of Earth Monitoring

In article <3948@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
:In article <4247@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

::But this is the main point , haled J Shammout many other Arabs in the
::middle east and in other places do consider killing Jews as a good
::action.

:What proof do you have to support such a theory?  And how dare you
:accuse Khaled of considering this a 'good action'!!

:Obviously you don't know what you are talking about and you haven't
:been keeping up on anything that Mr. Shammout has said.

:What trash shall we bring up regarding Israeli words and ACTIONS
:against the Palestinians??

:Keep YOUR LOUSY opinions and bigotry to YOURSELF!!

:We refuse to accept such garbage - this newsgroups is BAD ENOUGH!!!

:SHALOM!!

:Anisa

Actually, the real problem is the implicit double standard that
somehow Arab Muslim people should treat Jewish people better than Arab
Muslim people treat Kurdish people, Black people, Christian people,
other non-Muslim non-Arab minorities, Arab Muslim people of other
sects and in fact just other Arab Muslim people in general.


-- 
Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

The article represents noone's opinions other than the author's.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 23:44:59 GMT


In Article: 52259 of talk.politics.mideast, (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>Strawman.  And from the postings of the previous 3 weeks, Khaled knows
>it, too.  I strongly suggest, Khaled, that you start taking people at
>their word, Khaled; strawman tactics are not legitimate debating
>tactics, and in my book they're just plain despicable.  The fact is that
>                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Herzl, Weizmann et al. - the fathers of the Zionist movement - were not
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>religious men *at all*.  This has been repeated to you over and over
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>again.  You are obviously ignoring anything that doesn't agree with your
>viewpoint, even when repeatedly proved wrong.

     And how often do we STILL hear from many Israelis and Zionists,relegious
fanatics or not, civilians or even GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS that this land 
(Palestine) is the "Promised Land" by GOD, (or is he not part of religion??)

Wa Salam
-------------------------
Khaled Shammout
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: MEQ #6: "Arabs are Jews"
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 08:44:16 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.044057.18581@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>
>      MEQ #6.  Brothers!
>
>   ... Israel Belkind, who ... belonged to the first batch of Zionist
>   immigrants, [while] travelling on both sides of the Jordan in 1894,
>   ... came to the conclusion that 'the overwhelming majority' of the
>   inhabitants were descended from Jews 'who had not left the land but
>   had endured their political and spiritual exile in it'.  This
>   discovery impelled him to ask: 'Are we to go on distinguishing them
>   as Arabs ... only because they speak Arabic?'  Evidently not.  'We
>   are brothers, brothers in stock, brothers, sons of one people.


   Very nice and dandy opinion. Well, I guess that our brothers denied
   this "fact" and tried to expell us into the sea!

   Belkind was SPECULATING - his speculation may apply to some of the
   Arabs that lived in Plaesine at the time (less then 300K). But it 
   sure does not apply to the immigrants from many other Arab countries
   during the generations and especially after the beggining of Zionist
   settlement.

   I think that this 'gut feeling' of Belkind must be supported by
   customs, langauge and other signs. Unfortunately there is precious
   little differences in the Arab Population of Palestine/Syria. 
   
   They show no signs of being with Jewish/Philistine/Cannanite origins
   they assimilated completely into the Arab nation. Their rights in the 
   country is not national but as individuals. They never claimed it
   it before the Jews came.
>
>   Source: E. Marmorstein, European Jews in Muslim Palestine, in
>   Palestine and Israel in the 19th and 20th centuries (E. Kedourie
>   and S.G. Haim, eds.) Frank Cass, 1982.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Middle East Quotes is an occasional series of quotations on Middle
>East history.  The editor does not necessarily approve of the sentiments
>expressed in quotes, nor will he necessarily join in any discussion
>they engender.  Contributions are welcome but will not necessarily be
>accepted.  Full sources are essential.      Brendan McKay.
>


-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Date: 4 Oct 92 20:48:16 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Oct2.183230.18944@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:

[Detritus deleted]

>
>     STOP PUTTING WORDS IN OTHER'S MOUTHS!! AND STOP TWISTING THE ARGUMENTS
>AROUND JUST TO CONFUSE THE ISSUE.
>     THOSE PALESTINIAN JEWS WHO WORK FOR THE P.L.O., ARE ARABS.  THEY ARE
>CONSIDERED PALESTINIANS AND ARABS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE OF PALESTINIAN
>ORIGIN, AND THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE ARABS.  P E R I O D...
>
>
>
>Wa Salam
>----------------------
>Khaled Shammout

Oh great.  Is Palestinian descent through the mother or the father.  I
do hope that it is at least through the mother, or even better and
egalitarian, through either, as my mother's mother is a 'Palestinian'
(sic) and still has her old 'Palestinian' passport from the British
Mandatory period to prove it.  If so then I to am a Palestinian, and
have every right to be in this wonderful country called ISRAEL.

Might it be a slight problem that I am Jewish?

Be'ahavat Chinam
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg            |    ^     I forgive everybody.  Unconditionally.
Bitnet:                     | \-/-\-/   "Repent now!
rothberg@bimacs             |  X   X     Avoid the Yom Kippur rush!"
Internet:                   | /-\-/-\      -Nero (aka Harry Blacker)
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il |    V      Gemar VeChatimah Tovah-Shanah Tovah
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bent@yang.earlham.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Value of Iraqi dinar
Date: 1 Oct 92 02:48:02 GMT
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana

In article <BvEx8r.45r@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, memg2102@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes:

> I am curious to know how much an Iraqi dinar is worth ( in dollars).
> I am trying to get rid of several hundred dinars that my parents
> picked up while they were in Kuwait/Iraq during the gulf war.
> Thanks.
> Marlon Menezes

I read in an issue of the New York Times (Monday the 21st of September) 
that the Iraqi dinar, valued at three to four times that of the dollar 
before  the Gulf war, is currently valued at 40 dinars to the dollar.  
These figures are fairly negligible, since few want to sell dinars 
in currency markets.

You may also want to contact a local currency market for more accurate 
information.  [And trade in those dinars before they completely lose 
exchange value.] 

-- 


				Benjamin Tanner 
						
			     bent@yang.earlham.edu                                     
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 07:51:42 GMT

bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:
>>>	When does a small number become irrelevant?
>>>	Is a continuous number of say, 10,000 along 1000 years irrelevant 
>>>	compared to a wave of immigration of, say, 1,000,000 in 10 years?
>>
>>What I wanted to say was that I don't think the Jewish claim to
>>Palestine is in any way enhanced (or reduced) by the existence of
>>a small fraction of the population of Palestine who were Jewish.
>>Those Jews who lived there had, by virtue of that residence, the 
>>same rights with respect to the place that other residents had,
>>but I don't know of any principle that lets one small subset of a
>>self-defined group act as place-holders for all the others.

>So, taking that principle to its logical conclusion, you also must not
>think that the fact that a small subset of Arabs lived in Eretz Yisrael for
>a period of time should enable them to claim it for all the other Arabs. 

Very good, Alan, your standard of logic is improving.  I do not
believe that the Arabs who lived in Palestine can claim the place
for all the other Arabs.  If you keep it up you may soon be able
to make deductions that are somehow relevant to the real world.

>>I do not accept land claims based on conquest in ancient
>>times, and that goes for everybody and everywhere.
>>
>I guess you just accept land claims based on whether or not you like
>the people making them.

I guess I was mistaken about the improvement.

>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu

Brendan.
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Hello again...
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:23:29 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


I'm back on the net, after several weeks in exile due to hospitalization
and surgery... which means I haven't caught up in ages. Anything anyone
really wants me to see, please e-mail me with at rivk@panix.com (you *can*
send it to the address I'm writing from, too, but it'll take longer for
me to get around to reading it) and I will be very grateful... 

	-Nora
-- 
"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."
From: bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Anti-Arab racism on the net
Date: 30 Sep 92 04:01:46 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Sep24.060710.962@cs.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> In article 7059@bony1.bony.com, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep20.043440.12370@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:


>>>The name "Transjordania" predates the 1920s by quite a while.
>>
>>The name "Israel" predates "Palestine" by a much longer while.
> 
> That's true.  So what?  The cultural identity of a people is not dependent
> on what name they call themselves or their country.


	That's true. But the name people call themselves or their country
	is not independent of their cultural identity.

 
>>Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com    
> 
> Brendan.


Noam
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Date: 2 Oct 92 20:35:40 GMT
	<9209241645.AA00570@top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
	<1992Sep24.181143.27529@das.harvard.edu>
	<1a0ba2INNdab@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <1afn3iINNk6v@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu's message of 1 Oct 92 20:29:38 GMT

In article <1afn3iINNk6v@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
> In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:
>
> >If you are an Israeli Jew in the year 4000 you will probably laugh
> >at the idea that the descendants of the Palestinian Arabs of 1948
> >have a right to return to the place they were kicked out of 2000
> >years before.
>
> That's a non-starter, since it's based on the incorrect assertion that
> Arabs were kicked out in 1948.

I, and I'm sure others as well, would take statements like Mr. Stein's
far more seriously if he found a way to demonstrate that they were
something less than a mere repetition of propaganda aimed at denying
dispossessed Palestinians any rights in Israel/Palestine.

How could Mr. Stein demonstrate this?  Well, for example, while
continuing (if he must) to insist that Arabs were not kicked out in
1948, he could grant those who could *prove* that they were kicked out
the right to return or be compensated.  Is that asking too much?

So, for example, the losses of the 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and
Ramleh who were forcibly evicted by forces commanded by Yitzhak Rabin in
1948 (as Rabin himself concedes), could be redressed.

In the meantime, the fact that statements like Mr. Stein's are repeated,
mantra like, despite even *Israeli* admissions that there were cases of
expulsion, exposes such claims for what they really are -- nothing but
propaganda aimed at denying expelled Palestinians any justice.
--
Yigal Arens        "You'd think [Bush] was running for First Lady instead
USC/ISI            of for President."     Bill Clinton, commenting on GOP
arens@isi.edu      attacks on his wife.   LA Times, 8/20.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Anti-Arab racism on the net
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:11:21 GMT

In article gem4Of600ioWMNoF1x@andrew.cmu.edu, Radu Eugen Edelstein 
  <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu> () writes:
>... the Romans are the ones who, almost 2,000
>years ago, changed the name of the land from Israel (or Judea), to
>Palestine.  Thus, the inhabitants of the land at the time (the Jews)
>were the first ones to be called Palesinians. 

Do you have any example of Jews being called "Palestinians" at that time?  

>                                               The name of Palestinians
>was still being applied to the Jewish inhabitants of the area, at the
>begining of this century.

Still??  It is true that Palestinian Jews referred to themselves as
"Palestinians" during the later part of the mandate period.  However,
I am not aware of any earlier example.  In particular, I am not aware
of any example of members of the old Yishuv (before massive Zionist
immigration from Europe) being called "Palestinians" by anyone, even
themselves.  If you know otherwise, please tell us.

I should make it clear that the question of who called themselves
"Palestinians" when is only of historical interest to me.  In my
opinion, the right of the Arabs of Palestine to present themselves
as a well-defined people would be exactly the same if they called
themselves "TeddyWaddians".

>Rad

Brendan.
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Isarel, innocent target of Iraqi attacks
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 04:24:01 GMT

In article <22484@venera.isi.edu# arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
#Appeared in the Hebrew language Los Angeles paper "Hadshot L.A." (LA
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ZHIROOT! HA-OYEV MAAZIN!! :-)

#News), September 24, 1992.
#
#
# "ISRAEL DELIVERED TO THE US A LIST OF TARGETS FOR ATTACK IN IRAQ"
#
#By Sari'el Shani
#
#Washington -- During the Gulf War, Israel delivered to the US a list
#of targets for attack, which were then bombed by the US Air Force.
#
#The US agreed to accept such a list as part of of its effort to
#prevent Israel from participating in the war.  This revelation, which
#has never before been made public by an authoritative source, is
#included in the forthcoming autobiography of General Norman
#Schwarzkopf, commander of the "Desert Storm" campaign, to appear next
#month.  This was reported earlier this week in the New York Times.

So what? Israel was attacked without any reason and/or provocation.
And that is that. Your attempt to minimize Iraq's crime, and/or
show that the Skud attacks were justified, is absurd. Sometimes
I really wonder about you.

What were these targets anyway? Maybe Skud launchers? The US hit the
nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons center in Iraq in the first
night, before Israel was attacked.

-Danny Keren.
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:18:08 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1992Oct5.224907.22798@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
>In Article: 52226 of talk.politics.mideast, (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

>>(Khaled Shammout) writes:
>>>And finally, what about all those special rights and priviliges that are
>>>offered ONLY to the new comers to Israel.  And guess who the new comers
>>>are??? Jews, of course.

>>Maybe you forget that Israel is a Jewish State.  It is here for the benefit
>>and security of Jews.  Perhaps if Jews had been treated better in other parts
>                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>of the world including the Arab countries then such a thing would not have
>                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>been necessary.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>     AH HAAAA!  So the Jews did not want to settle in Palestine because of
>religious reasons!!!!!!             ++++

There is a difference between want and need.  Jews have always wanted
to return to Eretz Yisrael, a religious want, and the treatment of
Jews by Europeans made it necessary.


>     Just another proof in the defense of the Palestinian TRUTH.

No, just another proof that your English is not up to par.  Either
that, or you didn't read closely.

Adam


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:32:35 GMT

In Article: 52184 of talk.politics.mideast, (Steve Berson) writes:

>Apparently my earlier message wasn't clear.  I am aware that the Majlis
>is elected.

Give us a break.  You do not know anything; this is an old trick.  You just
attack others and their arguments, come up with a bunch of lies and
misleading information, and then hope no one will notice.  And if someone
strikes back with the truth you resort to saying "Oh my message wasn't clear".

Just quit it.  If you can not say the truth, do not say anything.

Wa Salam
-----------------
Khaled Shammout
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Date: 2 Oct 92 23:32:09 GMT
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:

>>That's a non-starter, since it's based on the incorrect assertion that
>>Arabs were kicked out in 1948.
>
>Ignorance is bliss, eh Alan?
>
You said it, not me.  But, since the shoe fits, you might as well keep
wearing it. 
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: 1973 war (was: Re: anti-Arab racism on the net...)
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 03:00:26 GMT

jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes: (to Uri Zakai)

#Simple, if your story is the true one (which I doubt very much), then
#why did the israeli's stop from advancing towards Damascus. 

What good would that have done? And do you think it would have
been so easy? Even if Israel wanted to do it, the Russians
would have certainly intervened.
 
#Besides, why did they surrender the city of Al Qunaitara, captured 
#since 1967, to the syrians.  Was there a reason?  

Yes, good will + some pressure from the super-powers.

#Also, why didn't they take Damascus then ask the Egyptians 
#to give them back the Barlaif (sp?) line at Sainai , or else.
                       Bar-Lev (or B...a...r - L...e..v) :-)

You don't give up on this Pan-Arabism thing, do you? Don't forget
that when Assad got hysterical and asked Sadat to continue the
fight, Sadat answered him that he has to agree to the cease-fire
because he was not "ready to face the responsibility of having
our armed forces destroyed for the second time". Fat chance he
would give back the Bar-Lev line for anything. Taking it was 
Egypt's greatest military succses ever.

I highly recommend to you the book "Road to Ramadan" by Heickal,
who was a leading political analyst as well as a close personal
friend of Nasser and Sadat. Naturaly I don't agree with 
everything he says, but I think it is a very good book about
the 1973 war.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Isarel, innocent target of Iraqi attacks
Date: 28 Sep 92 01:06:21 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute

Appeared in the Hebrew language Los Angeles paper "Hadshot L.A." (LA
News), September 24, 1992.


 "ISRAEL DELIVERED TO THE US A LIST OF TARGETS FOR ATTACK IN IRAQ"

By Sari'el Shani

Washington -- During the Gulf War, Israel delivered to the US a list
of targets for attack, which were then bombed by the US Air Force.

The US agreed to accept such a list as part of of its effort to
prevent Israel from participating in the war.  This revelation, which
has never before been made public by an authoritative source, is
included in the forthcoming autobiography of General Norman
Schwarzkopf, commander of the "Desert Storm" campaign, to appear next
month.  This was reported earlier this week in the New York Times.

. . .
--
Yigal Arens        "You'd think [Bush] was running for First Lady instead
USC/ISI            of for President."     Bill Clinton, commenting on GOP
arens@isi.edu      attacks on his wife.   LA Times, 8/20.
From: bent@yang.earlham.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Water sovereignty: West Bank
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:12:08 GMT
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana


     I am seeking any information about the water sovereignty talks 
held between the Israeli, Jordanian and Palestinian delegations.  Please 
send me E-mail or post replies in this newsgroup.
-- 


				Benjamin Tanner 
						
			     bent@yang.earlham.edu                                     
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast