HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:03:43 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      LEO...

 I NEEDED that one.
 God Bless!
 Theresa

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re>Absolution
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:21:47 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92090801172260@ASUACAD.BITNET> Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET> writes:
>I may have understood the RC teaching, but want to be sure to get things
>right, so I will try to summarize what I have come to think is the
>offical view of the RCC: a RC receives forgiveness through confession
>and only through confession, unless he is hindered by force majeure in
>which case his repentance and wish to confess count. The non-RC
>Christians however receive forgiveness without confession even if they
>would have the opportunity to confess.

   Well, sort of.  It's actually somewhat more complicated.  For
mortal sins, confession is required to a priest, or there must at
least be the intent to so confess them.  Venial sin can be forgiven by
confessions, or just by going to Mass, which begins with the
Penitential Rite.  We call to mind our sins, then the priest leads us
in the Kyrie:

	Kyrie eleison (Lord [Father] have mercy)
	Christe eleison (Christ have mercy)
	Kyrie eleison (Lord [Holy Spirit] have mercy)

   For each of these three "have mercys" the priest says a few words
(from the rubrics -- he isn't allowed to improvise), followed by the
"[God] have mercy," then the congregation repeats the "[God] have
mercy."

   An optional prayer said by the entire congregation is the
Confiteor:

	I confess to Almighty God,
	and to you, my brothers and sisters,
	that I have sinned through my own fault,
	in my thoughts and in my deeds,
	in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
	and I asked Most Blessed Virgin Mary,
	all the angels and Saints,
	and you, my brothers and sisters,
	to pray for me to the Lord our God.

   At the end of the Penitential Rite the priest says a prayer, and
God forgives our sins.

   For non-Catholics, confession isn't required, since they aren't
held accountable for inculpable ignorance (which, from the Catholic
point of view, is not knowing that the Catholic Church is the true
Church).  However, since Confession, as do all sacraments, bestows
grace on the recipient, it is more beneficial to go to Confession than
to get other types of forgiveness.  A sacrament is an outward sign of
grace that is already in a person, but a sacrament also confers grace
of itself, just by its administration.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:12:14 CDT
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Taking care of Mary--a question

I've been behind and missed a day or two because of computer work here, so
I hope I'm not going over worn territory. It seems possible that there was
some dissension in Jesus' family toward the end of his earthly life.
Perhaps Mary was being criticized for being with HIm instead of staying
safely out of the events. Maybe the brothers (or stepbrothers) were afraid
for their own families. I don't think it is incompatible that Jesus would
ask a close friend to look after his mother in such circumstances. THe more
people looking after her, the better.

My question is, at what point were the circumstances of Jesus' conception
and birth made known to his immediate family?

Thanks for your response,

Carol
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 13:26:39 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      last paragraph/zane's post

 Zane...
 I tend to agree with the last paragraph of your statement
 titled "scripture/tradition"!!!
 Our lives are the only "BIBLE" most people see.
 If they don't see HIM in US, then where????
 Fight the Fight of Faith!!!!
 "G"  (Blackwell)

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 08:56:22 CDT
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Praise report from Steven Klepzig
              Sep 4, 92 2:35 pm

Very happy for you, S!
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 13:32:34 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Re:Seeking a Catholic Perspective

...how can Protestant who does not accept this Sacrement be exempt from
this rule?

A Protestant can follow the sacrements of his/her church.  The Catholic
Church has made provisions in their rules stating that a Protestant who
confesses his/her sins as he/she fits with the Protestant doctrines will
be granted salvation.  The Church is trying to "erase the line" that some
Catholics has "drawn" by saying that people outside of Church will not be
granted salvation.  So I don't understand the "mind control" part of your
answer.

You asked why can't a Protestant minister do the same things as the
Catholic priest?  He can, which is why I explained that a Catholic priest
is like "any minister".

I did't expect this type of reply to trying to answer your questions, Tim.
I hope this message will be more helpful.

                                           Michele

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re: Church and Rome
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:54:18 GMT

In article <01GOHGS1MXN68WY0UO@UBVMS.BITNET> Robert Weiss <PSYROBTW@UBVMS.BITNET> writes:
>     There isn't an absence of evidence. There is a change of gender
>     indicating a change of subject. What is interesting is that a revelation
>     takes the feminine gender. It appears that there are two complete,
>     distinct statements: "Thou art Peter," and "Upon this rock I will build
>     my church."

   But that ignores any thought of why Jesus changed Simon's name to
Peter.  If our Lord was changing Simon's name, He must have had a good
reason for it.  If Jesus changed Simon's name to "rock," which had
been used only of God before then, then it makes more sense that Peter
was going to be given some unique authority to act in God's name.  The
fact that He said He would give Peter the keys of authority, IN THE
VERY SAME SECTION that He changed his name, makes this obvious to
anyone who is not stubbornly attached to bias against the Catholic
Church.

>     The gates of Hell were not to prevail against the church. But the gates
>     of Hell did prevail against Peter shortly afterward, as recorded just
>     five verses later when Jesus rebuked him, "Get thee behind me, Satan;
>     thou art a stumbling block unto me, for thou mindest not the things of
>     God but the things of men" (v23).

   First thing: Jesus had not yet given Peter this authority ("on this
rock I _will_ build My Church," "I _will_ give thee the keys").  The
authority was given after the Resurrection.  Second thing: if what you
say is true, then the gates of Hades (Hebrew Sheol; hell is an
inaccurate translation, which should be used for Gehenna) prevailed
against he to whom the keys were to be given. Jesus was talking to
Peter about giving him the keys, as He used the word "thee" in saying
this to Peter.  There is no question about this, nor can there be any
explaining it away.

>     It doesn't appear that Jesus is confirming Peter's alleged authority in
>     Luke 22:32. When He tells Peter "when you have been turned again,
>     strengthen your brothers," it appears that Peter will be a source of
>     encouragement.
>
>     In John 21:15-19, Jesus is telling Peter to feed and shepherd His lambs.
>     This is not giving primary authority to Peter, but rather defining the
>     ministerial role of pastor for Peter. Feeding and tending the flock is
>     the duty and service of all those who answer the calling of pastor.

   This _really_ is reaching a bit to explain away what these passages
really mean, that Peter is to have a special role among and for the
other Apostles.  It really looks more like two points _for_ Brad's
argument.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Re>Absolution
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:11:00 GMT

In article <920908.23363668.066501@USM.CP6> MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET> writes:
>>...confession is required to a priest,...or by going to Mass...
>
>     Are you saying that it is totaly unnessary to talk one-on-one
>with God.?  The First one a Catholic should confess to *is* God!
>Then one should go to confession to hear the words of forgiveness.

   When one confesses to a priest, one is confessing to God, because
the priest's authority to forgive sins comes from God (John 20:23).
An analogy would be an ambassador with the authority to sign treaties
in the name of his king.

   As for Mass, what is praying, "I confess to almighty God..." if it
is not confessing directly to God?

   Of course, one is to make an examination of conscience before
confession, as well as during the Penitential Rite of Mass.  Therefore
God knows for what sins we ask forgiveness.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: Seeking a Catholic Perspective
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 02:41:03 GMT

I want to add one more point.

I have found many Protestant churches to be just as bad or much worse than
what it seems like the Catholic church is in the area of "mind control."
I don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm anti-Catholic, because
I'm not.  I know that there are some very good christians in both
Catholicism and Protestantism.  I also have observed some very questionable
practices in both courts.  However, I do not wish to be brought under the
bondage of any of these questionable practices.

-TimK
-- 
Tim King                  |  Some of us favor logic in making decisions.
24 Myrtle Street          |  Some, emotions.  I, personally, get very    |\
Dedham, MA 02026          |  emotional about faulty logic! :-)           | >
timk@world.std.com        |                                             <>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Traditional Scriptures, or Scriptural traditions, or vice versa.
From: comjohn@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Mr. John T Jensen)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:22:38 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

"DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL> writes:

>Several authors have suggested that the early Catholic and / or Orthodox
>church chose the Bible according to "Holy tradition."  It seems to me that
>this is the ultimate in circular reasoning.

>1.  The church defines what is scripture.
>2.  The defined scripture gives the church its authority.
>3.  Goto 1.

>Dan Graham

It seems to me that circular reasoning is unavoidable whenever one looks for
a standard.  The Bible is the Word of God because the Bible says so.  If it
were for some other reason (proofs by miracle, etc) this would simply place
the standard elsewhere (e.g. a concept of natural law in which miracle
inherently plays the role of indicating God standing outside --- all
presupposed BEFORE one looks at the Bible).

Archimedes has to stand SOMEwhere!

jj

John Thayer Jensen                      64 9 373 7599 ext. 7543
Commerce Computer Services              64 9 373 7437 (FAX)
Auckland University                     jt.jensen@aukuni.ac.nz
Private Bag 92019
AUCKLAND
New Zealand
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: dougger@ERC.MsState.Edu (Douglas Meyer)
Subject: Re: (no subject given)
Organization: /home3/dougger/.organization
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:04:57 GMT

In article <920911.10083544.069910@USM.CP6> THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET> writes:

   Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Path: nntp.msstate.edu!darwin.sura.net!paladin.american.edu!auvm!USMCP6.BITNET!TBLACKWL
   X-Resent-Orig-To: YA67@FERRIS,christia@asuacad
   Resent-Subject: *PRAISE REPORT: MANGNITUDE 1*
   Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
   Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:08:36 CDT
   Sender:       CHRISTIA@ASUACAD
   Comments:     Resent-From: THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
   From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>



     Virginia then called me last night... upon which I returned her
    call this morning, to find out that I'd play with the choir in
     the SUNDAY MORNING WORSHIP services there on September 27th!
     I'm gonna love this opportunity, because not only will I know
     the minister of music, but I'll also get a chance to play in
     front of total and complete strangers.
     Maybe this will relieve the "jitters"... dunno.
     I'm so happy right now.
     To think that David's Mom would ask such from me...
     I'm glad that David and I decided to remain friends.  Due to
     that fact, Virginia and I still talk, and WE are best friends as
     well...


This is great Theresa!!  You've got a great outlook on this, and I'd
just encourage you to keep lookin' to Him.  I remember the first time
that I did a duet with a friend (at that time, girlfriend) for
communion at church... it was a violin/clarinet duet from the
classical period.  It was so AWESOME to use my talent that He have me
to serve Him.  I'd done lots of other musical stuff in church before
that, but this was the first "exposed" playing.  He really blessed
Wendy and me through that willing service (and hopefully others by our
playing :-> )... and since then, I've done a LOT more.  

The Lord's got His Hand on you... and He will be glorified through
your service!!  Isn't music great!!!!!


Encouragement! Encouragement!!!

Blessings,
Douglas Meyer

P.S.  There shall be saxophones in heaven.  I hope!!!!!
--
Douglas Brent Meyer
Research Assistant
Engineering Research Center for Computational Field Simulation
Box 6176
Mississippi State, MS  39759
                                    "In short, there are three things
Office: (601)-325-2477               that last:  faith, hope and love; 
FAX:    (601)-325-7692               and the greatest of these is love."

E-Mail Address:  dougger@erc.msstate.edu




  
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Vmsmail-To: CHRISTIA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 07:46:43 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      righteousness

	Jesse,
	Just a short warning:  You better start off with diffining what you mean
by impute vs impart, or you might end up in a useless arguement over
semantics with someone who defines them differently than you.

mark
drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu

ps.  especially if talking to someone from an Eastern tradition.  I think it
takes some effort the part of someone trained in the western tradition to
understand what the eastern traditions mean by some things.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: Secular Humanism
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:07:15 GMT

Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> writes:

>*  We are committed to the application of reason and science to the
>   understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

>*  We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain
>   the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.

Okay...  Here's a question.

Why does reason and science necessarily preclude the existence of the
supernatural?  If there's even a possibility that the supernatural exists,
then it should be considered a viable alternative and an acceptable belief,
shouldn't it?

In fact, one would think that reason and science would tend to lead us
toward the supernatural.  There are very compelling arguments against
denial of and for acceptance of the supernatural as fact.

-TimK
-- 
Tim King                  |  Some of us favor logic in making decisions.
24 Myrtle Street          |  Some, emotions.  I, personally, get very    |\
Dedham, MA 02026          |  emotional about faulty logic! :-)           | >
timk@world.std.com        |                                             <>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 09:28:20 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Hal Camping prediction of Return of Christ

John:

All I can say is that HalCamping is NOT a five-point "amillennialist."
An amillennialist will have a different view of the things your're reporting
this guy is saying. I haven't heard him, nor have I read his material, but
from what you've said so far, I would say he's a fringe Dispensationalist at
best, and a false teacher at worst.

Tom Brewer
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:14:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: Gays under fire

Date:     Tue, 15 Sep 1992 00:54:41 GMT
From:     Dr Nancy's Sweetie <kilroy@EDU.GLASSBORO.GBORO>
Subject:  Re: Newsweek: Gays Under Fire

>And while I've met a few homosexuals who adopted a "how dare you be openly
>straight" attitude, or who referred derisively to heterosexuals, they seem to
>be extremists.  Nobody has ever suggested, even for a second, that I should
>stop being straight and become gay.  Nobody has ever said that, because being
>gay was okay, being straight was wrong.

I can well understand the attitude.  When faced to witness acceptable public
acts with sexual overtones that frankly repulse you, it is reasonable to say
so, especially when you are unable to do the same because of your sexual
orientation.  (e.g. kissing on street corners, cuddling at the movies both
acceptable in straight society if straight people do it, not if you happen
to be gay.)  The thought of a man kissing a women can be literally sickening
for some gay people, to be expected to watch it can be just too much.  My
mother has the same reaction to two chaps kissing - her veiw is seen as
perfectly reasonable, if a little intolerant.  My gay friends aren't even
allowed the dignity of being allowed to feel similarly.

>Has anyone here ever actually been told by a homosexual that he/she should
>`convert'?

I don't recall ever hearing of a case where it was seriously meant.

I have heard it as a joke like reply to the conversation that men and women
think differently and are socially incompatible though.  This sort of thing
is an alternative to, "my boyfriend is crazy he always squeezes the middle of
the toothpaste, I think I'll become a nun" used to ridicule one's partner's
annoying little habits.  Normally found in the company of straight women.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Carol A Long,  					DISCLAIMER - unless otherwise
IT Service,					stated this message contains
Southampton Institute of Higher Education	my opinion...probably only mine
East Park Terrace,
Southampton	SO9 4WW,   England		RELEASE - Repost at will, with
	UK Fax No : (0703) 222259		acknowlegements to author.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
===============================================================================
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 22:21:38 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Election
              13 Sep 1992 08:52:00 CDT from <BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU>

Brian,

Yes, I'd say that the definitions which you provided are more or less
accurate.  I think however, that it is important to understand that terms
like "predestination" and "election" are words which we limited human
beings use to describe God's actions from our perspective, but which
don't work the same way from God's perspective.  If (as I and many
others believe) God is outside of the flow of time, then God sees the
entirety of His creation, past, present, and future all at once.       In
such a view of reality, God's foreknowledge and His predestination
(while clearly distinct from His perspective) become difficult for us
humans to sort out.  Romans 8:29 speaks of both of these, and it is
difficult to determine from the passage which comes first, foreknowledge
or election.

Hope this helps to clarify my views.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@vaxf.Colorado.EDU"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 00:37:16 -0600
From:         Glennerd Skynard <S05152@DOC.FLC.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Response (a little late) to Carol's message

Hi everyone:

     Carol writes :

>I am interested to hear how rare it is that Christian
>experience such things and what others think, so I'd like
>to ask all or you to post me your thoughts (directly or via
>the list).

     I really do not know how frequent this is among
Christians, but I'll be willing to bet that it is reasonably
widespread.  There is an awful lot to spiritual warfare that
we never see (I think it would be a real ugly picture if the
angels and the other things that God uses to keep satan's
evil buds in check suddenly up and disappeared).  The best I
can do is relate an experience that was kind of in this
realm.  I had it a couple of years ago.

     On this particular night I was very emotionally
distraught for one reason or another.  I think I was having
a big fight with God over the mythological her (the perfect
potential girl friend that I have not yet found and used to
worship) or something like that.  I was getting more and
more angry, and more and more out of breath, when I
approached one of the stalwarts of the lord here in Durango,
the First Baptist Church.  This is an old building erected
in the early 1900s that looks like a castle.  Anyway, I
started recalling things like "A might fortress is our God,"
and suddenly something snapped.  I could sit there calmly,
and it was a lot easier to breathe.  I thought at the time
that God had broken the evil dude's choke hold or something
like that.
     I stayed there and thanked the Lord for a while, and
then I went home and to bed.  I was kind of exhausted after
that one, but I was able to get to bed and to sleep, and the
Lord proved to me that he was guarding me too... wow!
     I don't know if this is a very good answer to the
question that Carol posed, but I hope it at least makes
interesting reading...

                         God Bless,



                        Glennerd :-)

============================================================
Glenn Radinsky                   S05152@doc.flc.colorado.edu
Galations 2:20                       a.k.a. Glennerd Skynard
============================================================
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia