From: grweiss@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Gregory Robert Weiss)
Subject: Re: Freedom of Association
Originator: news@nimaster
Keywords: fraternities sororities eating clubs frats greek
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:55:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.160352.9522@midway.uchicago.edu> you write:
>In article <1992Dec13.140009.2897@Princeton.EDU> grweiss@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Gregory Robert Weiss) writes:
>>Here's my point: As the last two self-selecting, single-sex eating clubs have
>>gone co-ed in the three years I've been here, there has been a *dramatic*
>>rise in fraternal activity.  The number of students has risen by a factor
>>of 5, at least.  From what I can tell, when you reduce the opportunities
>>for single-sex social gatherings, the students will just go underground or
>>some place off-campus where the university has no control over them.
>
>I'm curious whether the nationals are doing anything to support this,
>or whether it's completely student organized.

Well, I don't have any first-hand knowledge, but it seems that the impetuous
has come mainly from the students, and not particularly from nationals, 
although I am sure that they have been supportive in some way.

>Brandeis was completely without single-sex social organizations from its
>founding until 1986, and any underground fraternity or sorority that didn't
>have extensive support from a national wanting desperately to have a 
>chapter at Brandeis fell apart within a year.  The University of Chicago
>went for quite some time without fraternities, with no appreciable loss
>in flavor.
>
>The number of opportunities for single-race social gatherings has dropped
>to near-zero at most colleges -- as it's become unacceptable to discriminate
>based on race, fraternities just went along with it, and I don't particularly
>know of any all-white underground fraternities, or of any students who want
>to join one. 

Actually, one of the biggest growths in fraternities and sororities have been
in "minority" fraternities and sororities.  Single-race gatherings have been
strengthened by the fraternity and sorority system here.  (Granted, not in
an exclusive manner.)

>>Perhaps greek organizations would improve if they went co-ed, but 
>>what makes you think that such activities that you object to would not
>>simply go elsewhere, as noted above, or to groups such as single-sex sports
>>teams?  
>
>Sports teams have limited memberships, and, at any rate, are supposedly
>meritocratic organizations that are ostensibly under the responsibility,
>if not control, of a faculty member.

Much of the social activity of sports teams that I've seen is run by the 
students, not under control (or responsibility) of the faculty.  However,
I agree;  sports teams are generally meritocratic. 

>As for going elsewhere, I think that the frats won't have anywhere to go
>once you change the baseline.  Right now the default is "single sex frats
>okay", just as the default 30-40 years ago was "single race frats okay."
>If you start operating from the baseline of "single sex frats are wrong for
>the same reason single race frats are wrong", the nationals will either
>adapt or go under, the co-ed fraternities will be better organized and
>better-run than the single-sex fraternities, and students of the future
>won't even consider joining the ss frats.
>
>>I'm for the expansion of co-ed groups, but I'm pretty wary of the
>>frequent "unintended consequences" that arise when society or groups in
>>society attempt to impose their will on others.  What do think will happen
>>to students who wish to be in the current type of fraternity/sorority 
>>if fraternities and sororities go co-ed?
>
>You're assuming, I suspect, that the attitudes of the student body are
>inflexible.  Five years after the change, there won't be a student on
>campus who knew of any other way of life other than co-ed frats.

Actually, I am assuming that when an attitude is supressed by external
force or coersion, that the attitude will not go away, but manifest itself in
a different manner.  I hope you are correct.  I am concerned that the 
attitudes will simply shift from frats to other (either pre-existing, or new)
student organizations, unless such an attitude-shifting movement gains its 
strength from within the frat community.

  --Greg
    grweiss@phoenix.princeton.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english