From: masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda)
Subject: Re: Is Japan crowded?
Organization: Frederick Cancer Research and Development Center
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:08:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.171344.3170@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:

>Boy, there are a lot af attributions here! Much deleted.

   That's what happens when we start talking, isn't it?!
Those who don't want to see a lot of attributions, please press "n" here 8-).

>>       The reason why I mentioned it was that since Goldman-san was          
>>trying to compare people in N.J. (not US), who are living in a crowded 
>>situation seemingly comparable to that of Japan but are not paranoid, with 
>>Japanese. I agree that there are less crowded areas in Japan. However, in 
>>this comparison, these areas would be comparable to the "less crowded areas
>>in N.J." The point that I wanted to make was that there are no other areas
>>for Japanese to look at beyond Japan itself while people in N.J.
>>have them. Thus, I assumed that this difference has some psychological
>>effect that makes Japanese more paranoid than people in N.J. 

>I disagree. Hokkaido is not crowded, and has a lot of arable land. If people in
>NJ can look beyond N.J., people in (eg) Tokyo can look beyond Tokyo. Whether
>they do or not is another matter, but IF there can be a 'psychological effect'
>on people from Jersey, then the there could be the same effect for people in
>Tokyo.

   Ok, This is your original comparison.
I wonder if Hokkaido has the SAME effect on people in Tokyo as the effect of
the 49 other states in the US on people in N.J.

>>>I believe this is comparing Japan to the rest of the world.

>>    As I understand it from his words, he suggested that we look at
>>just N.J. or "just" the Boston-NY-DC strip. I don't think that these
>>areas are "the rest of the world."

>No, he responded to someone else's question "/* but what about just Honshu? */";
>the comments are not Mr Goldman's, and his "just" question is in response to
>someone limiting the consideration of Japan's crowds to the main island. Ie,
>if you limit consideration of crowds in Japan to a smaller area, why not limit
>consideration of crowds in the US to a smaller area. 

  Then, it was not the rest-of-the-world thing anyway.

>>>If the REASON the Japanese are so friendly is BECAUSE of its
>>>crowdedness, then the Dutch should be even friendlier, should they not?

>>    Since I have never tried to assert that Japanese are friendly BECAUSE
>>of Japan's crowdedness, I am not the best person to answer this question.

>This is, I believe, the crux of the whole thread. Mr Goldman is stating that
>the common explanation for certain aspects of Japanese behavior is that
>"because Japan is crowded, it is/Japanese are (your favorite stereotype here)"
>and that he believes this to be invalid.

   True, but as I mentioned, "friendly" is not my favorite.

>>      I was pointing out that his mentioning that "Japanese love being
>>different" is a generalization. This statement was in his recent
>>posting but not in his original article.

>It is a generalization. However, at least with regard to the amount of press,
>books, etc, on the general topic of "Why Japanese are different from X", where
>X is another group of people, avialable in Japanese bookstores when I was
>there, it is not without foundation. Similarly, many "info TV shows" have this
>sort of theme in Japan.

  Then, you might have wanted to advise me to look up those information 
sources instead of suggesting that I should re-read Goldman-san's original 
post.

>>>	"Japanese are so quiet and polite because they live on a crowded
>>>	 island and have to be more sensitive to others."
>>>
>>>	"Land costs so much in Japan because it is so crowded."
>>>
>>>	"Japanese are so successful because they live in such a crowded
>>>	 country so they have to work harder for everything."

>>   I wonder if these statements are made by Japanese or rather by 
>>non-Japanese ...

>.............in Mr Goldman's case, I believe he was addressing the 
>general claim itself (repeated by Japanese and non-Japanese alike).

     I was under the simlilar impression, too. Thanks for the confirmation.
 
>>   I'm afraid that his statistical comparison of crowdedness ended up leading
>>other netters to the misunderstanding of his point.

>Well, perhaps I am simply odd, but I thought that it was supposed to be 
>data supporting his point that the crowdedness in Japan is not the reason
>for any unique characteristics.

   He WAS using the data to support his point. The problem (if it deserves
being called "problem") was that quite a few netters including myself
undestood that he was trying to assert that Japan is not crowded.
In other words, we though that his pont was, "crowdedness is not the
reason because there is no such thing."
   His real intention turned out to be to assert that  "crowdedness is not 
the reason although there is such a thing." 
   As for the "crowdedness not being the reason" part, we as well as you
understood his point in the same way.

>Uh, I think the point of this is that it is the *US* which is unique (or odd,
>if you prefer) with regard to population density, and that Japan is closer
>to the norm for the industrialized world. In that sense, if we try to explain
>Japanese behavior as a consequence of "It is so crowded", then we (as Americans)
>are forgetting that (eg) Europe is also more crowded than the US, yet we do 
>not hear similar "explanations" of European behavior.

   This statement of yours has just confirmed my understanding that
from the comparison between the US and Japan, we would not be able to draw 
a valid conclusion regarding the effects of crodedness on Japanese people. 

>>>	So why does land cost so much in Japan ?....

>>   Another factor that should be considered is probably a balance between
>>demand and supply (which is a principle of economy?). If there are a
>>large number of potential buyers for a limited amount of merchandise,
>>price would go up to a level where they are equilibrated. (Well, the
>>price actually went up higher than the equilibrium. Goldman-san's
>>explanation might be applicable to that oversurge.)

>Uh, speculation *IS* a demand. And I believe what you mean is that the prices
>went higher than sustainable (ie, reasonable) value, which again is what Mr 
>Goldman was addressing, I believe.

   IMHO, crowdedness is an important determinant of the balance between
demand and supply. If "demand" was included in the original speculation,
that would mean that the "crowdedness" was also included at least
indirectly, wouldn't it?

>>.....
>>>	Japan
>>>	has had an incredibly fast move from the farm (1955: 42% in
>>>	agricultural production, 1962: 29%, vs the US at 4%, and 3%,
>>>	respectively) and it would be a cause of mass unemployment and
>>>	social dislocation if Japan's national productivity were at US
>>>	and German levels.

>>    Being an economics geek, I cannot get the point of this analysis.
>>Would anyone enlighten me?

>I believe the point of this was a comparison of "Japanese success/effeciency"
>with that of the other 2 world economic giants. It was tangetial (at best) to
>his main point.

   My naive thought tells me that his point was that if Japan becomes as
efficient as the US or Germany, 13 % (= 42 % - 29 %) of workers will
lose their job instead of being exploited for further productivity.

>>    Finally, I still believe that Japan's crowdedness is at least one
>>of the reasons for Japanese's paranoia. A patient (or an ex-patient 8-))
>>knows the best ...?

>It may contribute, but I believe there are far more important factors to 
>consider; the biggest, IMHO, is that Japan has in fact, very little diplomatic
>experience. But we'll leave that for another thread.

   Yappari, an ex-patient seems to know better.

   Although the paranoid attitude that Japan exhibits at the diplomatic
stage might be attributed to her limited diplomatic experience, the 
paranoid feelings that, say, many people in Tokyo area have in the daily life
(e.g., if I miss this train, I will never be able to get there...)
doesn't seem to be related to the international diplomacy.

--Michiaki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan