HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine)
Subject: Re: Our parents and spanking
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:13:01 GMT

In article <3156@ncr-mpd.FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM> sdavis@khan.ColoSpgs.NCR.COM (Susan Davis) writes:
>One time my mother (in a rage) took a hairbrush to my brother.

When I was young, my mother (in a rage) spanked my bare bottom with a
hairbrush.  Only problem -- she used the bristle end -- and had to spend
about 15 minutes carefully removing the bristles from my butt.  Kind
of overkill, I think.

I have been giving some thought to my reactions to being spanked as a
kid.  I definitely do not spank for the same reasons or in the same way
my parents did.  They just let the rage bottle up inside until I did
something that was the last straw, and -- whack!

But my worst memory of punishment as a kid was the time I dug up some
plants and got dirt on the living room floor.  When my mom found it,
she told me that "Misty couldn't have done that -- I don't know who you
are but could you go to your room until Misty is ready to come out."
I was terribly confused, and sad because I didn't know where I had gone.
And my own mom didn't even know me!  It sounds not so bad on the surface,
at least to me as a detached adult.  But to me as an almost-four year
old, it was quite devastating.

-- Misty

Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: goldberg@eldyn.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patti Twigg)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center - Greenbelt, MD, USA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:08:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov04.012916.2218325@locus.com>, judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes...
>In article <2NOV199212451459@eldyn.gsfc.nasa.gov> goldberg@eldyn.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patti Twigg) writes:
>>
>>I went to a seminar 2 weeks ago about alternatives to physical
>>punishment for kids, and the speaker said potty training is the
>>number one reason given for physical child abuse. I can believe
>>that!!
>>                            Patti Twigg
> 
>I can't.  I mean, potty training is really easy if you let it be the child's
>responsibility and not yours (actually, I'm coming to learn that parenting
>is easier this way as well).  When a child is capable of toileting, interested
>in toileting, and willing to please their parents (i.e., don't try this in
>the throes of their contrary phase) toilet training becomes a no-op.  Sure,
>you'll have some accidents to clean up, but what's a little urine or poop
>on the floor (or in your shoes, for that matter)?
> 
(lots more stuff deleted for brevity)

Well, life is not always as simple as that. My son is 4, and has not yet
outgrown his contrary phase. He also has some developmental delays.
But, he knew how to use the potty. In fact, he was using it at daycare.
He was just not willing to do it for me. Or his dad. Now, I did not
abuse him, but the frustration got to the point where it could have
happened. So, when I say I can understand why potty training is the
leading cause of child abuse in this country, that is where I am coming
from. Tell me, are you willing to change diapers until a child is 5?
Would that frustrate you at all? 
                               Patti Twigg
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: brighid@bass.lkw.com (Brighid)
Subject: Re: Completely confused about bacteria and sterilization
Organization: Lakewood Corporation
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:21:12 GMT


Not really connected to bacteria, but more abbout putting spoons of stuff
back into original containers.

Saliva is designed to partially breakdown food, and works particularly
well on dairy things. You may notice this yourself - you serve yourself
some yogurt, eat some of it, and pop the rest either back into the container
or into another container. Next time you open the yogurt, it's got this
well of liquid or it's a lot runnier than before.

On this theory, bottles could be put back into the fridge but sippy cups
should be dumped and washed.

Brighid					Mom-to-be in May of '93!
brighid@bass.lkw.com
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: klj@cbnews.cb.att.com (karen.l.carr)
Subject: Re: Century Recall
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:04:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.134429.18541@nynexst.com>, clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:
>   What about their 2000 car seats?  Do you think they'll eventually
>   come out with  a problem on those latches also?  I find them hard
>   to disengage sometimes...
> 
>   ....  So my problem is whether to buy another Century
>   and risk them recalling the 2000 also (in which case we'd lose
>   both carseats), or buying another brand and having my son not
>   like the little bar that goes around the front.

We have a Century 5500 Elite.  The recall is not a recall in the strict
sense of the word.  You would not lose your carseat if Century recalled the
2000 in the future for the same reason (at this time, the 2000 model is
okay).  The recall is such that they send you a repair kit (we ordered one
but haven't received it yet).  The carseat is still very useful.  We are
using it perfectly fine -- but then I don't get into accidents :) .

Besides, the problem is corrected in the newer seats.  If you buy your
carseat at some place which has a high turnover in sales of the car seats,
there should be little risk in getting one of the affected carseats -- or
if you are buying a model that has not been affected, there probably would
be changes made to it that aren't major but would mean the problem never
could happen.

	Karen
	  Mom to Alison (6 months),
		 Guy Kitty (11 yr old cat),
		 Sasha Lee (10.5 yr old cat),
		 and Asta (2 yr old black lab mix).
		 [oh and Alex (32 yr old husband).]
From: shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Tolerance (Re: 20/20 and Spanking)
Date: 12 Nov 92 05:00:48 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <26184@optima.cs.arizona.edu> bweiss@cs.arizona.edu (Beth Weiss) writes:
 >
 >I don't normally respond to flames, but this one I feel obligated to
 >respond to (once).
 >
 >jj@alice.att.com (jj, curmudgeon and all-around grouch) writes:
 >|> bweiss@cs.arizona.edu (Beth Weiss) writes:
 >|> >Nobody is _obligated_ to have tolerance for another's views if
 >|> >that person feels those views are morally wrong.  
 >
 >|> I see. You are not obligated to treat someone you disagree with
 >|> as a human being.  
 >
 >These first four lines, taken without any editing, show very clearly
 >that jj is reading something into my post that isn't there.  I state
 >it isn't necessary to have tolerance for someone's _views_ and he
 >reads that it isn't necessary to treat someone you disagree with as a
 >human being.

I agree completely.  Beth was talking about my views which she disagrees
with, but she always treats me with the utmost respect.  I am priviliged
to have her as a friend.

 >|> This misstatement for
 >|> purely emotionally manipulitive purposes shows that you
 >|> do not even accept his status as a human being.  In short,
 >|> you are treating him as something below deserving ethical
 >|> behavior.  
 >
 >This is the part that has caused me to reply.  I know David
 >Shackelford personally.  We have worked together on projects.  I don't
 >agree _at all_ with his views on spanking and his stated idea that one
 >of parents' primary goals should be to teach child not to be brats. <
 >
 >HOWEVER, I do respect David, I do treat him as a human being worthy of
 >respect, and I certainly believe that he is worthy of ethical
 >treatment.  Based on our interactions, David would never think
 >I don't treat him with respect, and I resent your accusations.
 >
 >--Beth Weiss
 >bweiss@cs.arizona.edu

Beth and I have known each other for a couple of years and have
always respected each other's ideas, even when we're in complete
disagreement.  I consider this one of the most important elements
of a friendship and her reaction to JJ's accusation reinforces
it more.  Thanks Beth, I never doubted you for a second!

David Shackelford
From: ICKAD@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: "Winkin', Blinkin', and Nod"????
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:58:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: ASUACAD.92310.155811ICKAD
 <Bx3JCF.6vz@ocsmd.ocs.com>
Organization: Arizona State University

From memory:

Wynken, Blynken, and Nod one night
Sailed off in a wooden shoe.
Sailed on a river of crystal light
Into a sea of dew.
"Where are you going, and what do you wish?"
The Old Moon asked the three.
"We have come to fish for the herring fish
That live in this beautiful sea.
Nets of silver and gold have we!"
Said Wynken, Blynken, and Nod.

The Old Moon laughed and sang a song
As they rocked in the wooden shoe.
And the wind that sped them all night long
Ruffled the waves of dew.
The little stars were the herring fish
That lived in that beautiful sea.
"Now cast your nets wherever you wish.
Never afeard are we!"
So cried the stars to the fishermen three:
Wynken, Blynken, and Nod.

All night long their nets they threw
To the stars in the twinkling foam.
Then down from the skies came the wooden shoe
Bringing the fishermen home.
'Twas all so pretty a sail it seemed
As if it could not be.
And some folks thought 'twas a dream they dreamed
Of sailing that beautiful sea.
But I shall name you the fishermen three:
Wynken, Blynken, and Nod.

Wynken and Blynken have two little eyes
And Nod is a little head.
And the wooden shoe that sailed the skies
Is a wee one's trundle bed.
So shut your eyes while Mother sings
Of sailing that wonderful sea
And you shall see the beautiful things
As you rock in that misty sea,
Where the old shoe rocked the fishermen three:
Wynken, Blynken, . . . and Nod.

--Jamie's Mommy (Karen Davis)
From: smt2626@hertz.njit.edu (sylvia m tou mfen stnt)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Class Sizes
Date: 5 Nov 92 13:37:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <2379@gandalf.intel.com> linda@linda.intel.com (Linda Harbin) writes:
>
>But now days, kids KNOW they can get away with almost anything and the
>teachers cannot discipline them.  Overall, I think the students are more
>unruly than they used to be.  Blame it on the parents, or the system, or
>anything you want.
>


You are right about the kids knowing that they get away with most anything.
I do substitute teaching at a high school and I remember the biology teacher
being pissed because 2 of his students skipped class, specifically an exam
to smoke outside.  He saw this and gave them an F.  The kids' parents 
complained to the admin. and sure enough the teacher had to give them a
retest which I thought was totally unfair (even though they were probably
going to fail it anyway no matter when they took it).  It seems like (at
least where I was subbing) that all that the kids had to do is call mommy and
daddy (who are too busy with their careers to see what's really happening)
who then proomptly call admin who then rains (sp?) all over the teachers.
Talk about getting the bum deal.  


-- sylvia
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer)
Subject: Re: Not Limiting Sweets (was Re: Halloween Stories)
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 03:48:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.182103.1515@adobe.com> riggle@adobe.com (Kathleen Riggle) writes:
>
>So, (here's my question!) are you somewhat discriminating about sweets
>or if they want them right before dinner, is that fine too?
>

The only rules we have are that Mitchell must ask for something while
one of us is up and not right after we sit down and he must say the parent's
name (Mom or Dad) to get our attention and then ask with a "please".  

Now, if it is right before dinner we may try to encourage him to wait by
saying, "Dinner will be ready in five minutes.  Wouldn't you rather wait?"
A lot of times when Mitchell wants a snack it's because he's hungry.  Many
times if someone offers a more substantial alternative he'll opt for that.
If he is really set on a cookie, though, we let him have it.  If I'm really
set on a cookie, I know that a salad just isn't going to be the same.



-- 
Judy Leedom Tyrer

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"	- William Blake
From: lindsay@sesame.lbl.gov (Lindsay Schachinger)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: critical relatives
Date: 10 Nov 1992 05:24:34 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, Berkeley
Reply-To: lindsay@sesame.lbl.gov (Lindsay Schachinger)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.22

In article <1992Nov9.234640.17487@netcom.com> shannah@netcom.com (Teri Miller) writes:

>I've posted messages here about disregarding meddling parents, and I
>think the reason I've taken such a strong stand is that what I've been
>hearing is that the reasonable advice is coming wrapped up in hostile,
>blaming, or downputting wrappings.  
>
>For those who are having "parental advice problems", is the problem what
>I'm describing above?  If so, has anyone found a way to change things so
>that relatives can provide input while not presenting it in an 
>objectionable way?

Yes, this is what I experienced with my parents --- not so much
"advice" as "criticism." There's a big difference between "Here's
what worked for us," and "You're not doing it right!" The first
leaves room for differences, and can be the beginning of an
interesting and helpful dialogue.

I'll leave it to some of the many others who replied to my
original message to post their suggestions for ways to respond.
There are alot of great techniques and ideas out there!

Lindsay

-- 

   Lindsay Schachinger			lindsay@sesame.lbl.gov
   Exploratory Studies Group		ucbvax!sesame.lbl.gov!lindsay
   Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory		(510) 486-5009
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject:  Thanks
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 13:54:44 GMT


  Thanks to everyone who've answered my myriad
  questions on blood drawing, bassinets, car-seats
  and Santa Cruz.  I'm way behind on my e-mail so
  please excuse me if I haven't had time to respond
  personally.  I'll try and catch up one by one.
  In the meantime, no more questions.... ;-)

Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine)
Subject: Re: Dressing Self
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 20:43:08 GMT

In article <TIGGER.92Nov8032038@satyr.Sylvan.COM> tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan) writes:
>So, I don't put her shoes on for her primarily to take the easy way
>out and avoid a conflict. I do it out of compassion for her wants and
>needs. I also offer her a choice because I choose my battles, and
>fighting over who puts on her shoes is not one I feel is important
>enough, especially when putting shoes or clothing on her body at all
>is such a big deal for her.

Being (I think) the person whose posts you were responding to here, I
do want to point out that this is misinterpreting what I said (or what
I *thought* I said, anyway).

My original statement was that, if the child is in a situation where
he/she is *responsible* for a particular dressing issue, then the child
does it.  Period.  The first example I gave was that Anna is  responsible
for changing her clothes when she pees in her pants.  Changing her clothes
is an activity that I know she can do, and the responsibility comes
because it is our consequence for wetting her pants.  Now, if Anna is
having a particularly hard day, or whatever, she can ask for help.
Sometimes she does, and sometimes when I feel that it is warranted, I
may help (even though I do feel that she is ultimately responsible).

The second time was that Timmy is responsible for putting his coat and
shoes on when he leaves the house.  Let me give some history here.  As
a family each person has certain responsibilities.  Starting at 3, every
half-year Tim has been picking up a new "chore".  Some of these "chores"
have included putting the silverware on the table at dinner, and putting
his shoes and coat on when we are leaving.  He chooses the chores, though
we provide a menu to choose from.  Not doing a chore does have a consequence.
For instance, if he doesn't put on his shoes and coat, well, they're not
on -- time to go.  If he doesn't set the silverware, we don't set his
plate and glass (he has to do that part himself).  Amusingly enough,
Anna at almost 2 has adopted her own set of chores, though we don't hold
her to them.

I was not trying to  imply, Tigger, that all your dressing skills revolve
around confluct avoidance.  What I was implying wat that I think, if a
particular dressing action is clearly their responsibility, then
doing it for them is the easy way to avoid the conflict.  And if done
enough, I do think that the net effect could be that the child learns
that if they dawdle enough, Mom will take care of their responsibilities
for them.

Now, I do agree that sometimes when the child normally does something
but it is not a "responsibility", then maybe they would like some
babying.  It is also true that the babying may turn into something
that frustrates them (see Faber and Mazlish's chapter on Autonomy in
"How to talk ...").  Thus, I *do* tend to err on the side of expecting
them to do things, but at the same time my kids always know that they
can ask for help when they need (or often just want) it.

-- Misty



Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: alice_bertelson@pts.mot.com (ALICE BERTELSON X2572 P7331)
Subject: air travel when preggo
Followup-To: air travel while preggo
Reply-To: alice_bertelson@pts.mot.com
Organization: Paging and Wireless Data Group
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:34:00 GMT

In article AA11065@hertz.njit.edu, onn@hertz.njit.edu (ruth onn ece fac) writes:
>
>What do people know about air travel while pregnant? 
>Specifically, what month do airlines begin to restrict travel? I am
>not pregnent yet, just planning, and want to add the known trip into
>considerations of timing.
>Thanks, Ruth.
>
Hi Ruth, 

My OBYGN gave me the following guidlines when I asked him the same question
(as I am from UK and invarably travel home periodically)

"My advice for you is to make the trip if needed only in the 4th,5th and 6th months."

I`m not sure if Airlines have set rules towards the end of pregnancy, but the air
pressure difference can definitely bring on labour (notice the way I spell that 
- cos I'm a Brit not because I'm illiterate!!)

Hope this helps...........

Alice, Alleycat or the Brit :-)

Motorola Paging Div		Phone: (407) 364-2572
Mail stop 36			Fax:  (407) 364-3571
1500 NW 22nd Ave		Email: alice_bertelson@pts.mot.com
Boynton Bch, FL 33426. USA







Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: lowry@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry)
Subject: FAQ Proposal: Source Materials for Parents
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:55:59 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Something I've seen in a number of debates on this newsgroup, with the
recent spanking debate being a case in point, is people talking about
studies, books, and other evidence to support their points of view.
Sometimes things are actually cited, but often they are not.  It's
made me think that it would be useful to compile lists of source
materials that parents have found helpful or informative on various
subjects related to parenting.  Examples of the sorts of things that
could be included are:

  - Books, ranging from general books on multiple aspects of
    parenting, to more specialized books like how to deal with
    hyperactive children, to books on child development theories, etc.
  - Magazines, journals, TV shows, radio shows, etc. that are either
    dedicated to or regularly carry material related to aspects of
    parenting.
  - Specific articles that have appeared in journals or magazines.
  - Pamphlets and reports available from the government or from
    private agencies or action groups or the like.
  - Videotapes, cassettes, etc.
  - Generally available support services to help parents or kids.
  - Anything else that can be obtained by others (e.g. not a one-time
    lecture, but notes or transcripts of such a lecture might be
    appropriate).

Minimally, each listing should include complete bibliographic
information or other information sufficient to allow others to access
the source.  Additional information that would be useful would be an
indication of some general areas of interest (discipline, nutrition,
toilet training, drugs, etc.), as well as whatever subjective comments
the submitter cares to include.  The area keywords would allow the FAQ
to be organized according to topic areas.  If more than one person
were to recommend the same source, there would be a single listing
including all the comments offered by the submitters.

I hesitate to volunteer to maintain such a FAQ (I already do the auto
safety FAQ), but I don't mind starting it and handing it over to the
first volunteer.  So if you think such a FAQ is a good idea and have
some recommendations, send them to lowry@watson.ibm.com.  If you don't
like the idea, we can discuss it in the newsgroup.  If you think it's
a great idea and you want to maintain it, PLEASE send mail to
lowry@watson.ibm.com.  We can work it into the FAQ list if and when it
takes off.

--
Andy Lowry, lowry@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7925
IBM Research, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: ephraim@think.com (Ephraim Vishniac)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Brio/Thomas the Tank Engine
Date: 6 Nov 1992 20:53:13 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: charon.think.com

In article <srb-061192134026@tarma.jax.org> srb@aretha.jax.org (Susan Dewey) writes:
>In article <3859@master.CNA.TEK.COM>, judyd@rosebud.CNA.TEK.COM (Judy E.
>Drake) wrote:

>> Is there a catalog that has Brio-compatible Thomas trains available 
>> or am I hallucinating?

>No hallucination. I believe that creative playthings has this and
>other brio compatible train sets -- for less than the brio.

A clerk at the Early Learning Center (in the Burlington [Mass.] Mall)
told us last night that the Brio-compatible Thomas trains should be in
next week. "But they were supposed to be here last week, too, so you
should call us on Wednesday to find out."

The accompanying track is cheaper than Brio, but the trains themselves
are more expensive. Probably to cover the licensing of the characters,
I suppose. 

-- 
Ephraim Vishniac    ephraim@think.com   ThinkingCorp@applelink.apple.com
 Thinking Machines Corporation / 245 First Street / Cambridge, MA 02142
        One of the flaws in the anarchic bopper society was
        the ease with which such crazed rumors could spread.
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: xtkmg@trentu.ca (Kate Gregory)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking 
Organization: Trent University, Ontario
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 01:44:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.212330.16101@bcrka451.bnr.ca> seanna@bnr.ca (Seanna Watson) writes:
>In article <1d7de9INNdja@network.ucsd.edu> dlin@weber.ucsd.edu writes:
>
>  >                     Logical consequences are great, IMHO.  Also,
>  > once our son was old enough to help clean up messes, a natural
>  > consequence of throwing food or making other messes, would be to 
>  > help clean it up.  
>
>Unfortunately, this isn't always a negative consequence.  My boys have
>always really enjoyed cleaning (can't imagine *where* they got that from:).  
>So making this a natural consequence would have had no deterrent effect,
> and might even reinforce the negative behaviour.  (My guys are beyond
>food throwing now, but when they were, I used the "oh, you must be finished
>with that" logical consequence (and tried to avoid leaving anything offensive
>on their plate/tray).
>

Beth has always loved cleaning up. Our logical consequences for
deliberate mess were always that she *couldn't* help to clean
it up. Accidental messes by her or anyone else she was welcome
to help. I can't remember the last time we had to deal with
a deliberate mess.

Yes, this makes you say strange things like "no you can't help
clean up that mess." But then I say stuff like "settle down
or you won't be sleeping on the floor tonight" or "don't worry
I promise we won't do the dishes while you're sleeping" so often
I only rarely notice how weird they sound.

Parenthood...

Kate

Newsgroups: misc.kids