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Date:         Fri, 17 Jul 1992 14:55:19 EDT
Reply-To:     Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 2787
X-To:         LHCAP <l-hcap@VM1.NODAK.EDU>

                             THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                                 Issue # 2787

                           Thursday, July 16, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******

                           Blink Talk Digest # 643

                             Printers and Labels
                            Re: Vendor Favoritism
                    Re: nfb bbs censorship?? You decide.
                                NLS equipment
                                 Guide Work
                               Re: Guide Work
                       Re: LEARNING TO TRUST EL POOCHO
                           Re: CANE VS. GUIDE DOG
                            Re: CANES AND DOGGIES
                          Re: LEARNING TO TRUST EL


                                ******


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Subject: Printers and Labels
From: Les.Kriegler@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Les Kriegler)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:260/207 - The Recovery Room, Rochester NY


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Barbara.  I have not printed many envelopes, but regularly print mailing
 labels, and I can certainly relate to the problem you have had with labels
 getting stuck!  I know nothing about Bubble Jet printers, but I now use a
 Laser printer, and couldn't be happier.  Laser printers have 3 advantages.
 First, they are quick, you can generally print between 4 to 12 pages per
 minute, depending on how much you want to spend.  Second, they are extremely
 quiet.  The bestreason to own one, in my opinion, is that you don't use
 tractor fed paper of any kind.  As a totally blind person, there is nothing
 more frustrating than having your printer jam because of loose paper or labels
 being stuck in the printer.  That won't happen with the lasers.  The only
 problem I have had is when the printer runs out of paper.  Printer jams are
 quite easy to fix.  Regarding labels, I use the sheet labels, 3 across.  I
 print a mailing list of 4000 names, and it now takes about 25 minutes to do,
 without the hastles that were encountered with the dot matrix printers.  Hope
this helps, and if I can be of more assistance, please let me know.  Regards,
Les

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!260!207!Les.Kriegler
Internet: Les.Kriegler@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Vendor Favoritism
From: Steve.Bauer@f7.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Steve Bauer)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:291/7 - Union Station, Wichita KS


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I've seen the Braille-Mate from TSI and was not that impressed with
the single cell braille display.  Sure it worked nicely, but was way
to slow.

Steve

--
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Internet: Steve.Bauer@f7.n291.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: nfb bbs censorship?? You decide.
From: Steve.Bauer@f7.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Steve Bauer)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:291/7 - Union Station, Wichita KS


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

It just goes to show that what I've said for years is true.  Believe
and  do as Lord Jernigan says and you'll be accepted in NFB.  Say or
do anything against the Lord or his servants and you are history.  I'
I've never  called the NFB BBS and don't plan to ever call it.

So if Jernigan says ACBers are loosers one could also say that NFBers
are  loosers because they are so sheltered in what they are told.

The Braille Monitor only runs announcements regarding products for
sale from NFB members.  Doesn't that tell you that members are
missingout  on many opportunitites and products that are not sold or
offered  by NFB members?

Glory glory federation right in to the dumpster!

Steve

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!291!7!Steve.Bauer
Internet: Steve.Bauer@f7.n291.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: NLS equipment
From: Steve.Bauer@f7.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Steve Bauer)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:291/7 - Union Station, Wichita KS


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Has anyone else experienced a lot of trouble with the current model of
NLS C1 cassette players?

For the past year and a half, I have exchanged no less than six units
with my library.  With each one, I am assured that they have been
serviced  and are working properly.

One unit would only run 10 minutes on a charge.  Ran great on 120v.

Another was extremely muffled on tracks 1 and 3, but 2 and 4 played
OK.

Another squeeked so loud, it was rediculous.

The one I have now, will stop playing a tape with no notice.  A sharp
slap of the back of the unit and the tape will start playing again.

I'm really getting sick of these units.

If you've experienced similar ttroubles, please let me know.

Steve

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!291!7!Steve.Bauer
Internet: Steve.Bauer@f7.n291.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Guide Work
From: Bill.Koppelmann@p0.f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Koppelmann)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/810.0 - Electronic Library, Denver CO


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Willie,
You are right, it seems that I was talking past Vixen here, or she me.
However, let's get in to what I consider to be a shortcut and see how
would approach it?
Let's say that you have a gas station on the corner, and you and you
suddenly decide to go right throu ghe station instead of around it.
Can this ever be legal?  As you probably know, some stations have
little traffic within themselves, and I wouldn't see any problem
taking a shortcut.  Of course I now know better than to "steer" my dog
so that she would take the shortcut, but enough of that.

                        Bolder bill

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!104!810.0!Bill.Koppelmann
Internet: Bill.Koppelmann@p0.f810.n104.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Guide Work
From: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 BK> Let's say that you have a gas station on the corner, and you
 BK> and you suddenly decide to go right throu ghe station instead
 BK> of around it. Can this ever be legal?

Bill,
   I hear that short cuts through gas stations are punishable by a fine
not to exceed $2500 and/or imprisonment for a period of not less than 6
months!

     Seriously, I'm probably going to play a tougher upholder of the
rules than even most of the guide dog schools with this one, but no, I
don't think I would take such a short cut with LeeRoy!  At least the way
I'm picturing your situation, it couldn't be saving you that many steps,
it is the kind of thing that opens itself up to habit very easily, and
no, no matter how I look at it, taking a short cut through an open area
where vehicles dominate and pedistrians are the minority can't be the
safest thing in the world!  Sure Bill, my hearing is good enough that I
suspect I could do such a thing safely if I really wanted to, but my
feet are also good enough that I'm not too concerned about saving every
step I possibly can.

     I guess what I'm saying is, if your taking this short cut is at all
dependant upon your use of any sight, or if it isn't something you can
count on 100% of the time, or most definitely, it isn't saving you more
than just a few steps, I wouldn't take it!  It just doesn't sound like
it would be worth the risk it imposes, if only a small one, to do so.
                                        Willie

... BlinkTalk, Commo and Silver in Pittsburgh!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: LEARNING TO TRUST EL POOCHO
From: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 SM> he might want to load himself onto a bus up to New York City's
 SM> Port Authority Bus Terminal where I would meet him and escort
 SM> him and Mr. Newdog out to Beautiful Downtown Flushing, Queens,
 SM> home of the Mets and former (ahem) home of the Jets for a brief
 SM> visit and stay at the Matzura Motel.

Youch. I cannot imagine anything more horrid (nothing against your fine
hospitality) than trying to negotiate New York (as a tourist) with a
first dog, straight out of class.  <shudder> You folks who live there
kinda forget what a shock that city can be to us yokels from "small"
cities like San Fran and Denver... not to mention how it feels to some
dogs!  A fairly hefty "first solo" for anyone who doesn't know the city
and is just getting used to travel at the rear of a canine, IMHO.

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: CANE VS. GUIDE DOG
From: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

V> there are totals also, who should'nt be given dog
V> guides.

Amen.

 V> I agree however, that partials can tend to anticipate or even
 V> steer their dog guide as though the harness were the steering
 V> wheel of a car.

When I got Chance, one of my classmates drove me bananas doing this (we
often worked doubles together) She anticipated, read street signs, let
her dog cut corners...  I often wonder how that worked out.

but I've also known many very skilled low-vision dog guide users (like
yourself, I'm sure, Vixen!) It's a matter of trust and consistancy, just
as it is for totals like me-- though I don't envy y'all the learning
process to gain that trust and remember the consistancy.
I might add that I've also known totals who tried to "steer" their dogs
with the harness. Some people, regardless of visual aquity, are
unwilling or unable to let the dog do its half of the work.

In the early days of working with a dog, I caught myself wanting to use
the harness to communicate with the dog that way.  Kept having to remind
myself that that was *his* communication tool. I imagine, had I been a
true partial (I've got unreliable light perception; I am functionally a
total) I might have had a very hard time relinquishing the control.

But the whole idea of an O&M instructor thinking dog schools should not
accept high partials makes my skin crawl.  Most of the O&M folks I've
met knew absolutely nada about working with dog guides and dog guide
handlers and, in general, I think them a vastly unqualified bunch to be
preaching to dog guide schools about policies like that.  Mike's
acquaintance might well be an exception, but I sure hope there isn't
some move among O&M folks to discourage dog schools from their current
policies on entrance based on visual acquity.

I have all kinds of opinions on who ought to be allowed into dog guide
training, and I've seen a lot of folks with dogs whom I consider to be
extremely unqualified to be handling a dog... for health, responsibility
and emotional stability  reasons.  But it really isn't my business and I
try hard to keep my opinions to myself.  Most of the time, it works. ;-)

The only times I feel like standing up and making muttering noises about
it are when one of these unqualified people with a dog manages to do
serious damage to the reputation of dog guides, in general.  At that
point, it *does* become my business, since I have to live with the
"public relations" damage that person has done and try to set it to
rights by my own example wherever I can.

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: CANES AND DOGGIES
From: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

(Vixen, not realy to you, but a reply to the original to which you
replied)

BK> A dog guide spoils  you
BK > big-time. After a year with a new dog, just try going  back to
BK > a cane and doing some of those complex routes you used to know
BK > like the back of your hand.

Really?? I dunno about that... Most dog guide users have to know their
routes pretty thuroughly, unless they're shirking their end of the
bargain and letting da mutt fall into "autopilot mode" far too often.

Now, I'll admit, I didn't see the original message, here-- so I may not
be interpreting that correctly. I will also admit to having had my bacon
saved a time or two by a dog who could figure out his own way home.  And
I do count on him to slow down for familiar turns.  But if *I* don't
know the route, and we get lost, we're in deep poop.  If I don't give
the commands at each and every turn, I wind up with a stubborn dog who
won't deviate from the route he thinks is right. I know this from bitter
experience, and it took many months to break the habit of relying on his
ability to remember routes after I started letting him navigate during
our second year of travel together... but we did it and it's a habit I
certainly will avoid getting back into with Chance or ever getting into
with the next mutt to slobber its way into my life.

Don't let that old myth of a blind guy just hanging onto the end of a
harness and being "taken" everywhere by a dog fool ya...

Now, your routes may be totally messed up for entirely different
reasons-- namely, that you're now using a totally different set of
landmarks-- but that's a whole different ball game!

Now, I've been "spoiled" by a dog guide in other ways, sure.  I can cut
across parking lots, for example, straight to an entrance with a "find
the door" request. I don't have to look along walls for stairwells...
there's "find the stairs" for that.  But most of those "short cuts" are
most useful in *unfamiliar* places-- places where I've never known the
route beyond someone's vague, hand-waving directions of "turn left, go a
couple... or was it three... blocks and then it's right on your left.
YOu can't miss it."  In those cases, I'm spoiled rotten. ;-)

The worst problems I've had with a cane over *known* routes, though,
have not been the old, familiar cane-travelled routes, but those which I
learned with the dog.  When I had to travel them with a cane, all sorts
of unusual landmarks leapt out of nowhere and I was positive, a number
of times, that I was lost because I was encountering objects I didn't
know were there before!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, I find travel with a dog
guide easier than with a cane (or I wouldn't have a dog, would I?) but
not because I don't have to know my routes. ;-)

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: LEARNING TO TRUST EL
From: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DK>> seeing eye won't let you make stops on the way home.
 DK>> they'll load you into that plane and you and that fresh new
 DK>> pooch of yours are on your way.

 MF> Boy, is *that* ever revealing!
MF> ... Supposedly, the schools are training
 MF> responsible adults to be independent!  And then they go and
 MF> tell you how you have to go home!  Some independence!  Who the
 MF> hell do they think they are to tell adults how to live there
 MF> lives, where to go and when?

Woah!!  Mike, hang on a sec.  Lemme try to 'splain this one.  I may not
be a Seeing Eye graduate, but this just plain old makes sense to me...

I don't know about Seeing Eye, but most schools strongly discourage
doing anything but going straight home with the new dog for several
quite good reasons.  Most, also, understand extenuating circumstances
which would make it necessary to go somewhere else, first.  But I cannot
imagine why any of them should not encourage the type of activity which
they think to be best for the young dog and the newly graduated student.
To do otherwise would seem a tad hypocritical to me.

Why is it a good idea to go straight home and a really *bad* idea to go,
immediately, on a vacation?  When you get a dog, you have three and a
half (or so) weeks of intensive training with 'em.  YOur dog is fully
trained, but young.  You're pretty competent, but quite green.  The bond
between you and your dog is quite fragile, still, when you leave the
school.  Throwing that dog and that relationship into the whirlwind of a
vacation with a day here, a day there in situations in which you may
have little control over things like waking and eating schedules is a
monumentally bad idea, in my not-so-humble opinion.  Sure, it's your
perogative to make a bad decision, but why on earth would a dog guide
professional condone it when it might, well, destroy all the work
they've done with you and with the dog?

A dog isn't like a car.  YOu can't just hop in, as soon as you have your
lisence and do anything and everything you'll ever be able to do in it.
A lot of people think you're completely ready to go anywhere and do
anything the minute you leave the dog school. I think it's a myth the
dog schools promote, in some ways, in fact. But it just isn't so.

Several dog trainers with whom I've spoken point out that there's a sort
of cycle to it.  The dog is trained before you arrive; trained to be
very efficient *at guiding its trainer*.  The trainer is familiar and
the trainer also knows how to follow a dog, issue commands and
corrections correctly and consistantly and how to convince a dog to do
things it may not want to do. You learn a lot of this during your three
weeks of training, but a lot of that learning has to go on after you
leave the school, too, as you settle into working with a dog.  The dog
drops from very high efficiency to something like 60% of its potential
the minute it leaves its trainer's hands.  Through careful work,
learning, teaching and pure and simple experience, you can bring the dog
back up to its previous skill level, and often, beyond to meet its
actual potential.  It's called "seasoning."

These dogs, after all, have had less than a month to turn over
to you from being very tightly bonded with their trainers-- men and
women who do what they do because dogs like them and bond with them
easily.  You've got the basics down, but you have *no* independent
travel experience.  Oh, sure, you've had solo trips out, but nothing
where there wasn't someone who would *eventually* "rescue" you if things
got too weird.

Your dog has gotten back into a routine-- routines make most dogs feel
secure.  For the handler, the routine is just becoming "second nature."
(Eventually, it's easy to work in all the necessary scheduled events--
feeding, taking the dog out, spending time grooming and playing with the
dog-- all necessary to its continued good work)  but at first, it's
something you need to consciously accustom yourself to doing outside the
regimented dorm living situation.

The only security, then, that these dogs have is a. you, a human who
they are *pretty sure* they like, by now. But you still aren't their
trainer...  and b. routine.  Getting them home and settling them into a
routine at your home, then, is psychologically the best thing for the
dog.  Taking them for two days at your brother's, a week at Grandma's
and two days on the beach is very confusing to a dog who doesn't know
exactly what's going on, yet.

Sure, later, when the dog knows you'll always go "home", and needs
little other than your presence to feel secure, travelling is great with
a dog-- many of them even adore it.  But taking the dog places with
which *you* are not familiar-- possibly places very different from those
which will later be its daily routine-- can put you into situations
which will cause you terrible problems before you are ready to handle
such problems.

Let's say you get lost.  (It happens to us all in strange places,
sometimes, right?)  Or, in the chaos of trying to get somewhere for a
plane or to meet someone for lunch or whatever, you get frustrated.  Yu
have a very bad experience with the dog.  Maybe you have to correct it a
dozen times during this experience. What does the dog learn? "This
person expects too much from me and then yells at me and I don't think
this work stuff is all it's cracked up to be."  Any responsible handler
will try to make all of the dogs first outings positive experiences. Not
letting the dog get away with things, but taking it out on *known
routes* where clear, correct commands can be given and on which the dog
can perform well.  This re-enforces the dog's desire to work and cements
the bond between dog and handler.  Make its first working experiences
outside of the school negative, confusing and unpleasant, and the dog
may very quickly decide that work was ok at that school, but out
here...? No way!

So, you've got a fragile relationship, a green handler, and a young dog.
This is not something with which you mess.  Yes: you've been trained to
be independent, but you are advised to work into things slowly-- giving
the dog a few days to adjust to their new environment and their new job.
To do otherwise-- to plunge the dog into a chaotic vacation with no set
"home", no routine, and nothing but *you* to rely upon for stability, is
to ask for trouble, according to most schools and trainers.

I don't think Seeing Eye, any more than any other school, "puts you" on
a plane.  But part of what they teach is responsible dog guide handling,
and part of being a responsible handler is not destroying the training
and the partnership on the way out the door.

                                                 --Carla
* The opinions expressed above are my own and not those of any dog guide
school, least of all the Seeing Eye, which I have never attended.

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




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                                ******

                  End of Issue # 2787 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU