From: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Subject: Re: antipathy to fencing
Reply-To: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Organization: GTE Contel Federal Systems
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b31
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:45:27 GMT

Tibor and R.O.SCA

In article <1993Jan11.180437.27297@progress.com>, schuldy@progress.COM (Mark 
Schuldenfrei) writes:
> Thank you!  Those manuals that you described, do they portray rapier 
> style duelling and swordfighting, or a martial art more like the heavy 
> list style that we do? 

Both, depends on the period and venue.

The Tower MS:

Anonymous; "Notandum quod generaliter omnes dimicatores sive 
omnes homines habentes gladium in manibus etaim ignorantes artem 
dimacatoriam utuntur his septem custodiis", Fechtbuch [ca late 13th 
per A. Lhotsky, 14th per S.  Kramer], {Tower of London I-33 (Ms 
membr. I 115) 

Covers sword and buckler fencing without armor.  It shows a fairly 'advanced' 
style with the buckler mainly used as a defensive arm for the sword hand, and 
parries made with the sword. As such, in mayn't represent something used 
within the lists, although there is some evidence to the contrary. 

Liechtenaurs manual:

Liechtenaur, Johannes; Fechtbuch; Nurnberg Germanische Nationalmuseum	
Cod. ms. 3227a, ca1389* 

Covers the use of the 'langen Schwert" and as such probably could be 
catagorized as 'heavy weapons'

But, there is no differentiation that is meaningful prior to 1500 certainly-
there was no rapier AND the early rapier was merely a sword worn in public.  
Many of the techniques (fingers over the guard) we associate with the rapier 
were in fact in use during the middle ages-swords exist from ca 1300 with a 
finger ring.   

Most of the early manuals show EVERYTHING fighting in and out of armor, with 
swords, daggers, staves, and wrestling.  And on horseback and foot.

Agrippa (1553) represents the first 'single purpose' rapier manual, Marozzo 
(commonly considered the first extant work of rapier play) covers greatsword, 
sword and buckler, sword and 'heater', polearm, dagger, and wrestling. 
 

A real problem exists, however for heavy weapons.  Our major form of tourney 
combat (sword and shield) is no longer current past 1300-1350. There is (to 
my knowledge, YET) nothing covering this.  Hopefully, as more collections are 
organized and their contents published, this will change.  It mayn't be as 
bad as that, the biography of Piero Nino has him combating a Portuguese 
champion on foot s&s ca 1400.

For rapier combat, we can speak of styles, traditions, not just Spanish vs 
Italian, but Paduan vs Bolognese.

> 
> And, if they do describe tournament style martial arts, how well does 
> our recreation compare to them?  The argument that I'm making, should 
> be clear. I'm not arguing that our fencing is a superlative simulation 
> of period rapier dueling.  What I would argue is that our heavy list 
> fighting is no better.  Do any of the facts you are aware of, Strykar, 
> support this? 

We do.....ok....., both ways.  For heavy weapons, we can use only about 1/3 
of their techniques because they're unsafe.  Probably another 1/3 could be 
'mapped' into another weapon, or modified slightly.  They thought of weapons 
differently in the late middle ages than we do. A greatsword is a poleweapon, 
with a sharper haft and more dull beak and pick.  They utilized 'wrestling' 
or 'unbalancing' techniques which would not be legal in the lists, even in 
Ansteorra.

Period fencing-problem is the address of the weapons-their action is VERY 
different than that of anything made from modern equipment.  Nor would it be 
safe.

> 
> (I might further make the argument that given the level of 
> documentation, our rapier dueling may turn out to be more 
> authenticable, and eventually more authentic, but I haven't done enough 
> reading, thinking or talking with people to be sure.) 
> 
> 	Tibor (and thanks again for the response) 

I think it's several lifetimes worth of work to assimilate any of this, late 
medieval or renaissance.  Rapier people should be utilizing the greater 
availablility of sources now.  I'd love to see a technical arguement on the 
proprieties of challange - research into the fine points of code duello.

Strykar