From: kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones)
Subject: Re: Locarno = Kirk (Spoilers "First Duty"))
Organization: UUNET Technologies, Inc
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 02:34:41 GMT

 > > > > The Kobyashi Maru wasn't an exam.  It was a psychological
 > > > > test.
 > > >
 > > > IN PART. It was not an exam per se, but it was designed, IMHO, to drive home
 > > > the very really lesson that *there are times you can't win*.  Kirk COULD NOT
 > > > accept that, and it's a sign of gross immaturity. It served him well in some
 > > > ways; he might never have survived the encounter with the First Federation
 > > > without it, to be sure.  But it is a deep, deep character flaw, and one that
 > > > was exploited magnificently well in ST2.
 > >
 > > I disagree.  
 > 
 > You think ST2 wasn't done well?

I think ST2 was done quite well.  It's still my favorite Trek
movie.  I think they missed on the significance of Kobiyashi
Maru, though.

 > You think Kirk doesn't have this flaw?

I don't think he has it to the extent that you think he has it.

 > You think refusing to accept defeat *ever* is somehow noble
 > and sensible?

I think I'm having problems understanding what important lesson
you think Kirk didn't learn until the end of ST2.

 > Yes, Kirk's had bad situations before, but never to the scale he had with
 > Spock's death.  And you fail to recognize the basic fact:
 > 
 > The no-win scenario, in reality, EXISTS.  You can't cheat it in reality.
 > Refusing to admit there's a place for defeat in your mindset is living in a 
 > dream world--and Kirk paid a hefty rent there at times.

But I gave examples where Kirk had to admit that a situation or
problems had him licked.  He faced them when they came, and then
he moved on.  He didn't dwell on them for very long, but that's
hardly a flaw.  Kirk succeeded a lot precisely because he
wouldn't give up.  Preparing yourself for an eventual failure may
be cushion the fall, but it also makes you unconsciously hold
back and not give it everything you've got.  Sometimes it takes
everything you've got in order to succeed.  Kirk was willing to
give every bit of himself, because he knew that that last little
bit is often what puts you over the top.

Now if you're trying to say that taking the unaltered Kobiyashi
Maru would have helped Kirk face the loss of Spock I think you're
out of your mind.  No simulation can prepare someone for that.  I
don't think anything could have prepared Kirk for the reality of
watching Spock slowly die right before his eye.  Nor would the
simulation help Kirk learn how to grieve, or how to get on with
his life in the aftermath.

What good does admitting defeat do, other than make psychologist
nod their heads sagely and declare you mentally healthy?

 > > I do not see Kirk's refusal to accept defeat _before he is
 > > defeated_ as a character flaw.  
 > 
 > I'm not claiming he, or anyone, should meekly lay down and die.  I'm claiming
 > that anyone who goes in with the conscious *and unconscious* attitude of
 > "I cannot possibly fail, ever" is someone who deserves what he or she gets.
 > It reflects arrogance, and a major dose of hubris.

I still don't see where you would get this idea about Kirk's
psyche.  His original five year mission was not a string of
spectacular successes.  A lot of people died.  Kirk had to face
realities about hismself and his own abilities often.

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