From: vh@cs.columbia.edu (Vasileios Hatzivassiloglou)
Subject: Re: Turkish minority in Greece ????
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:49:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.113120.14179@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> trevore@vast.unsw.edu.au (Trevor Elbourne (Supr. Hell) BE) writes:
>vh@cs.columbia.edu (Vasileios Hatzivassiloglou) writes:
>: In article <1go0g8INN6aj@TERMINATOR.AI.CS.YALE.EDU> tsiout%thailand@cs.yale.edu (Dimitris Tsioutsias) writes:
>: >So, you that support the above view, can you tell me how is it
>: >then than an "oppressed" minority in Greece can elect 2 representatives
>: >into the greek parliament? How many Armenians or Kurds does the 
>: 
>: That was a mistake... proper care has been taken so that embarassing
>: minority MPs will not be elected again.
>: 
>: >turkish parliament have? Since Kurds are 20% of the Turkish population
>: >I would expect a reasonable number between 12-30, right??
>: >
>: >
>: >->dimitris
>: 
>: Comparison with the far worse record of Turkey does not exonerate Greece;
>: it is a shame that a country with such a glorious history of civilization
>: cannot come to terms with respecting human rights for minorities, but
>: instead denies them things as their ethnic identity. This kind of short-
>: sighted policy was a much more important factor in alienating the Turkish/
>: Muslim minority and elevating to prominence uncompromising fanatics such
>: as Sadik than any encouragement from the turkish side.
>
>	Oh come on. It's been beated to death. In the reasent human rights
>reports Greece is praised for it's respect for the human rights in Greece.
>To add to that a special note is made on the much improved conditions
>of the muslem minorities. Also mentioned is critsism  made to the USA for 
>turning a blind eye to Turkey and supplying aid contrary to their statment that
>they wont supply to countries that abuse human rights. What the muslems are
>called is a matter settled in the Lausane treaty for obvious reasons. They
>were called muslems because they alot don't identify them selves as Turks. 
>Officialy then as a group they are considered as Muslems. The books are
>provided by the Turkish goverment (which only recently has bothered to send
>them before the middle of the term !!!). What more should Greece do ?
>Call them Turks !!! Wow that sounds quite stupid. It's like asking for
>trouble the muslems probably don't want anyway. They live MUCH better
>than the Turks in Turkey (let alone any other minority)
>
>
>: 
>: 
>: - Vasilis.
>: 
>	A re Vasili, read a report by Amnesty internationsal, or any other
>world recognised human rights report and find out independantly by you
>self.
>	George

In my message, I first of all referred to "the far worse record of Turkey";
it is undisputable that Greece treats the minority rather well (i.e. they
have (relative) freedom of religion, they are allowed to speak their own
language, have their own schools, are not hunted down like the Kurds in
Turkey, etc.); it should also be accepted that the members of said minority
are not treated as equals to the rest of the Greeks. You referred to 
reports by AI and other human-rights organizations, but whenever these
reports are released, they always say something like "Greece does not
oppress the minority too much, but ..." and the Greek government and
press immediately denounce the report-writers as "misled" or "influenced
by the Turks"; I personally believe more the human-rights organizations
than the goverment. Human rights organizations do praise Greece, but 
only in the sense that its record is better than its neighbors, nor that
it is adequate.

To give an example : I completed my undergraduate studies in the University
of Patras; there one could see some non ethnic Greek students who were
all Palestinians or from other Arab countries; I never met one muslim 
student from Thrace (while I met many ethnic Greeks from the same area)
and I can see only two reasons for that : either all members of the
minority are stupid/indifferent to higher studies (which I can't believe),
or they were discouraged from enrolling in the University. Don't get me
wrong on the last one; I'm not saying that if a qualifed minority member
wanted to enroll he wouldn't be allowed, but that the conditions under
which people of the minority live are much worse than for the rest of
Greece, and therefore their opportunities for advancement are far fewer.
That their life might be better than that of Turks in Turkey is 
irrelevant to my original posting; I'm not comparing the two countries,
I'm just saying that Greece is at fault too.

As for the MP matter, I don't believe you disagree that the electoral
law change was shameful for a democratic country; the people of the area
are now deprived of their natural right to elect the person they prefer,
no matter if we don't like their choice. The story of trying and
convicting one of the minority MPs on ridiculous charges (for inciting
political passions, while the respected leaders of both big parties
do that daily on a far greater scale) is also a blow to the human rights
record of Greece.

Finally, for the name matter. It may be true that the muslims in Thrace
are not ethnically Turks, and it may be true that they felt non-Turks
at the start of the century; however, they now feel Turks (or they
wouldn't elect and support Sadik, for example), and no matter what 
Greeks want to call them officially doesn't matter. The situation of
calling them just muslims seems to me as ridiculous as calling the
Greeks in southern Albania "Orthodox Christian Albanians". My position
is that the short-sightness of the Greek government in the past
allowed these people to seek support from Turkey, and this influenced
their ethnic identity; as long as Greece tries to suppress the 
minority (e.g. their political expression) and treats them as second
class citizens, they will naturally resent that and move even closer
to Turkey. If instead Greece chose to adopt a policy of inclusion,
then I believe they would realize that they can be better off in a
Greece that respects them than in the present Turkey.