HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: colin@Cayman.COM (Colin "Atilla" Steele)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Playboy Article "Adventures in Cyberspace"
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:40:07 GMT
	<1992Mar30.122146.1168@wkuvx1.bitnet>
	<1992Mar31.004838.10492@husc3.harvard.edu>
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: kim3@husc10.harvard.edu's message of 31 Mar 92 05:48:37 GMT


I cannot concur more heartily.  Virtual sex is a long long long long
long long way off.  Maybe even longer than that.

OK, yes, people will always get a bit hot under the, er, collar, when
that cute little three letter word *sex* gets mentioned, but GET REAL.
So, if you want to talk about virtual sex, frame it in the context of
a grasping, confused, and technically ignorant public, goaded on by
the media.  'Cause that's all it is.  Yes.  That's all it is.

I dare anyone to offer substantive evidence, not "well given the
current rate of advance", that before our children are grandparents,
as the good author deftly notes, we'll be anywhere near real
virual/gibsonian/simstim sex.  No, double dog dare.

Fine, talk about VS (I can't resist - VVD?), but not like it's
happenin' RSN.  Talk about how public perceptions are made and what
they are likely to alter in the pursuit of our bleeding-edge
cybernetic grail.
--


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Colin Steele     | Cayman Systems, 26 Landsdowne St., Cambridge, MA 02139
 colin@cayman.com | (617) 494-1916 x209 | applelink D0523 | Fax (617) 494-9270
From: bradw@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Brad Wyble)
Subject: CyberSpace, the book!
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 06:31:05 GMT

I'd like to point out, that therez a new book out called CyberSpace,
you should find it in your local bookstore under computer science.
And what does this mean?  yes its non-fiction!  It is an actual
discussions of the methods that are methods that are being used to
create CyberSpace!It is not very technical from what I saw(no computer
code), I had hoped for some, but no look.  Also some very interesting
illustrations.   Anyway, check it out, only $20.  There are also some
cool books on VR in the same section.  Coolness eh?

Interesting fact:  The book mentions that the defined unit of length
in the CyberSpace to be will supposedley be called the Gibson!

l8r all
						-bradw@chaos.brandeis.edu


Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: ratner@owlnet.rice.edu (Logan Joshua Ratner)
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Organization: Rice University
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:29:42 GMT


"If you want to produce your new screenplay... and star [images of] Michael J. Fox and Winona Ryder
in it (sic), without consulting them, I don't think that would be illegal..."

Not as I see it.
Look, a basic point here is that the screen image of these actors is their primary source of income.
Thats why they are actors.  If you use their images witout their consent and approval (not to mention
their salaries) then in effect you rob them of their means of support.

This seem like a small thing to a big actor, but how long do you think actors will last if they can be
compromised in this manner.  Eventually live, flesh and blood actors could become obsolete under a concept
like that.  Now you may argue that the performances would be better for it, but I'm just purist enough
to think a human performance represents a greater accomplishment if nothing else.

No .signature and proud of it,
Ratner
From: ajs90@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Suter AJ)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Cyberpunk Rpg's
Date: 16 Apr 92 12:11:22 GMT

Some guy mentioned RIFTS the role playing game. Well rifts in a
generic thing. There's a big fashion trend in the gaming scene at the
moment towards games with a cyberpunk flavour. Rifts is one of them as
is FASA's Shadowrun. I think there is also a Traveller version similar
ro the Traveller 2300 of a few years back . If anyone is interested in
cyperpunk rolepplaying then I suggest they get down to there local
hobbystore and have a word with the staff there. Its the next big
thing, so the word on the role playing street goes.

This makes me think though. Arn't Roleplaying games the *origonal* form
of virtual relality? Where the reality is purely your own thoughts and
imaginations ( although I do know peaple who indulged in a wide
variaty of pychotrophics while playing...).

ps It's cheaper than buying the required hardware.... 
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.sex,misc.legal
From: degroff@tricorder.IntelliCorp.COM (Les Degroff)
Subject: Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 21:33:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr5.164737.16759@yang.earlham.edu>, allens@yang.earlham.edu (Allen Smith) writes:
|> In article <1992Apr2.031058.19303@reed.edu>, mehawk@reed.edu (Michael Sandy) writes:
|> > 
|> > How would you react to someone using a simulation of you in their
|> > Virtual fantasy?  What if they did various non-consensual type stuff
|> > with that copy?
|> > 
|> > And no royalties! ;^)
|> > 
|> 	That's an interesting point. Should people have copyrights over 
|> their appearance, etc? I'd say yes. Just as someone shouldn't be able to 
|> find out/use my grades, etc. without my permission, they shouldn't be able 
|> to use my appearance without my permission. Of course, at some point this 
|> runs into freedom of the press- being able to print a photo of someone.
|> 	-Allen

Better think about a couple limit cases... there are naturally people
that look enough alike to be taken for each others  and in simulation
you are going to have reduced appearance to parameters and data.
(for those interested in technical aspects, several years ago a
researcher at HP (sorry I forget her name) did a careful study showing
how a set of less than 25 measurements of a human face both allowed
full recognition reconstruction from a "base sterotype" image and
that by selecting the parameters with high deviation from the
"base" one could computerize the generation of caricatures...same
principles that police artists work with)  IT that context it
becomes a quick cop out to say...it's not a simulation of XXX, just
observe the parameters...Not a Marlyn Monroe, we have added a quarter
inch in height,  caricatured the fact by 2% and the simulations waist is
smaller.... 
  Its a bunch of bullshit to have copyright over appearance, even more so
over parametrized images....maybe I better dig out the paper, push it 
a little bit further into body parameters, create a generate program and
copyright a nice wide set! :) (As I post this, I wonder...should I
do this...could I gain and/or prevent some other jerks from gaining...:))
Add a wrinkle, a birthmark, a little scar???
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: vertual ethiics
Reply-To: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 01:06:42 GMT

must we decicde the morality of somthing that as yet is non existint?
is that nit for thouse of the future to decide?
there the ones who will have to deal with it.
From: bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: voodoo in Gibson yet again
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:29:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1992Apr16.145526.1583@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes:
>
>Okay, okay, I agree.  It certainly seems that at least some of the
>weird goings on in the matrix can be traced to the dump of the
>T/A cores. But not all of them.  When Angie queries Continuity,
>the machne entity suggests that there are two possible 
>explanations for what happened when it chnaged.  The first, which the 
>machine ignores in favor of a cybernetic explanation, is that the 
>matrix is being visited by things outside it.  (This is exactly 

(from page269 of _Neuromancer_):

	"I'm not Wintermute now." (<--hm)
	"So what are you."...
	"I'm the matrix, Case."
	"Where's that get you?"
	"Nowhere.  Everywhere.  I'm the sum total of the works, the
whole show."
	"That what 3Jane's mother wanted?"
	"No.  She couldn't imagine what I'd be like."
	...
	(Wintermute) "I talk to my own kind."
	"But you're the whole thing.  Talk to yourself?"
	"There's others.  I found one already . . ."
	"From where?"
	"Centauri system."

	The matrix is, in a sense, "visited", specifically from
Centauri, but the transmissions are over 8 years old or so.
Wintermute's release into the matrix transformed the AI into
something else and the influence of the "other" also continued that
change.  Because Wintermute is hooked into the net, and supposedly
the net itself (or however you wish to interpret what it says),
anything and everything that goes on in the net becomes a part of
Wintermute...etc.
	I don't know precisely what you mean by an AI not being able
to see beyond itself (?), but I think Gibson pretty much points the
finger at both the Wintermute AI and Centauri...
From: jdriver@netlink.cts.com (John Driver)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Clarifications on _Neuromancer_
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:38:31 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA


        
 
        I'm confused by a reference made by Gibson in _Neuromancer_.  
I'm reading it now for the third time and going through trying 
to nail down what makes Gibson's writings unique (I've noticed 
he references a lot of places like Milan, East Europe, etc, 
and each of these places evokes an image in my mind that he 
doesn't have to write about to create) and anyway, I decided 
everytime I come to something I don't understand, I would post 
here and ask for people's interpretations on it.  So, my first 
batch of questions.
 
           Page ten of the paperback.  "A millimeter of white 
showed beneath each of her pupils.  Sanpaku."  What is 
"Sanpaku"?  It is not in my dictionary.  I suspect it is some 
drug that causes dilation of pupils (profound huh?).  Also, 
what/where is "Ninsei"?  Used in the context of "the Ninsei 
crowd", ". . . Chiba City tolerated the Ninsei enclave".  
And. . . what are "pocket VTR's"?  Thanks. 

--                    
INTERNET:  jdriver@netlink.cts.com (John Driver)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!jdriver
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: erich@lighthouse.caltech.edu (Erich Schneider)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk top-ten
Organization: California Institute of Technology
	<1992Apr5.201353.27126@analsyn.gts.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 16:30:52 GMT

In article <1992Apr5.201353.27126@analsyn.gts.org> anton@analsyn.gts.org (Anton J Aylward) writes:

>As 'alternate time-line' stories go, it was quite rich and deep.
>However, I agree the execution lacks.
>The deounement requires some knowledge of mathematics, like having read 
>Go:edel, Escher, Bach", or some such.

>The montage of cahrecters and scenes is interesting, but weak.
>The clsoing section, with insights to the society is facinating but
>while it enriches the book, fails to do so for the storyline.

>Anyway, who can really get that emotive over Church-Turing?

My arrogant opinions:

One of the most important reasons I consider Gibson one of my favorite
authors is the _way_ he writes.  Nowadays I find the typical third-person-
omniscient-linear-plot-narrative type of literature pretty uninteresting.
The excellent execution of the "montage of characters and scenes" went
a long way towards confirming the book's excellence, in my opinion.

Also, I think the vast majority of posters about _The Difference
Engine_ are concentrating way too much on "plot" and not enough on
what the book is trying to "say".  I think the book was never intended
to be another "alternate time-line" story.  Instead, I see it as an
exploration of the ramifications of (a) chaos theory (e.g. the title
_The Difference Engine_, emphasis on "difference") and (b) the
"information society" concept, as both of them affect how our world
works and is the way it is.  The book's treatment of topic (b),
especially, made me go re-read _Neuromancer_ and changed my approach
to it.

_TDE_ is up for a Nebula, and I believe it deserves it.

(As an aside, I definitely know some people who get emotive over Church-
Turing; some of its implications can be philosophically disturbing.)
--
erich@lighthouse.caltech.edu

"Even the AI hated [my book]?"
"The AI _loved_ it. That's when we knew for sure that _people_ were going
 to hate it."
                      -Dan Simmons, _Hyperion_
Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:2066 alt.cyberpunk.tech:350
From: allens@yang.earlham.edu (Allen Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.cyberpunk.tech
Subject: Re: Playboy Article "Adventures in Cyberspace"
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:44:42 GMT
 <1992Mar30.122146.1168@wkuvx1.bitnet> <1992Mar31.004838.10492@husc3.harvard.edu> <Apr.5.23.06.31.1992.8143@furs.rutgers.edu>
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana

In article <Apr.5.23.06.31.1992.8143@furs.rutgers.edu>, fjohnson@furs.rutgers.edu (Floyd Johnson) writes:
> Seriously, I gotta admit that I see the GUI as the first step toward
> VR. Some tried to go further with a project on net.conversation thru
> icon-esque personas; the name, I believe was Avatar (I think it's Hindu, but
> it refers to the projection of one's soul into another world.). Once
> someone gets it perfected, possibly with real-time rendering (the CPU
> from hell!), the desktop computer will become a literal window on
> cyberspace. Shit, I sense that a lot of net.folk think of the current
> biz as a trip into C-space.
> 
	However, please consider that not everyone likes GUIs. I'd love 
virtual reality, but I think in a verbal, not a spacial manner. I have 
only recently reluctantly concluded that it's possible to like GUIs and be 
a real programmer/hacker. To me, GUIs make no sense in their symbols.
	-Allen
From: kim3@husc10.harvard.edu (Jason Kim)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Story: The real world
Date: 17 Apr 92 17:41:52 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


You know, that story really belongs in alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo


Jason Y. Kim
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
From: tcbruno@athena.mit.edu (Tom Bruno)
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 21:01:36 GMT

The perfect partner has artificial intelligence at least equal to
mine. When such is available, so also will perfect beings which are
artificial but alive come to be. I shall take one as my mate. I shall
have my body and brain reconstructed to match their perfection and
upon transfering my awareness to that body I will look back at this
old heap and I will simply remember to turn off the power and close
the door for good. That's assuming of course that the new body will
have enhanced sexual capability! Mr. Chlimar, life, is a hoax. The
very computer you are using right now is destined to supercede the
spontaneously arising human body which rots in three score and ten.
The so called natural way to become conscious through evolution is
just the random kick start on what will be ever afterward a controlled
and ever more elegantly perfected process of machine evolution through
direct control by the beings it affects. Until then, no relationship
with a machine will live up to the real thing. There was a hew and cry
that computers would make us all a bunch of video screen nerds as
children. We are not. We are better for it as well. - Steve Walz


--- end of quoted text ---


'upon transferring my awareness to that body...'
Neat trick.  Good luck, Mr. Walz.  
Did it ever occur to you that the eventual mechanization of humankind would
eliminate the need for sex?  That a 'perfected process of machine evolution' 
would probably come to the conclusion that the procreative act was without value
or function in an elegant and controlled masterplan?  Like breathing or shitting,
sex would go the way of the dodo as Man became machine- maybe not at first, but
in the long run?  Evolution is based on energy-conservation- things tend to evolve
into more efficient forms- evolution into a 'human' machine would be a heinous
waste of efficiency.  

Machines are tools.  They can make life more efficient, but not 'better.'
Life is not a hoax.  Even as a machine you would be mortal.  It would just take
a lot longer for you to die.

- tom
  tcbruno@athena.mit.edu
  (Still wondering what robotics has to do with alt.sex)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: cjudd@esk (Craig Thomas Judd)
Subject: Re: RPG
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 10:35:59 GMT

In article <F837iB3w164w@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us>, arnold@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us (Jonathan Hefler) writes:
>
>Hi! I have recently been reading a new manual for a Role Playing Game 
>called "RIFTS" and it mentioned Cyberpunk in it, so I thought I'd call 
>in. Anyway, I am wondering if there is anyone out there who has played or 
>Knows of RIFTS and would like to talk about it. Thanx.
>
>-----
>Jonathan Hefler, Princeton High School BBS

I have about a years-worth of Cyberpunk experience, and have made a character
for RIFTS: while she was never played, she is still my best-developed character,
and I have had experience with other Palladium RPG's. If you're interested in
talking, check out my EMail address IN MY .SIG. The one in the header is 
probably bogus.

Oh, one other thing: I doubt if anyone will complain, but a more appropriate
group to look in would be rec.games.cyber.

Yours helpfully;

-- 
   \/\  "Men, we're going to the Olympics."  The Colonel, Akira (movie)  /\/
====\/\       "You REFUSE to drink my wine...?"  Kahm, Outlanders       /\/====
=====\/\      *** WANT ANY MANGA ARTWORK DONE? Just email me! ***      /\/=====
      \/\   cjudd@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au    a.k.a. Kuro to Shiroi   /\/
From: kainen@cs.umd.edu (Paul Kainen)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk music
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:17:30 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742


A classic example of the genre is Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music"
which has titles like "The beta amine ring" etc.  The first couple of
times I heard it, it sounded like high-tech noise, but then, after my
neurons had been suitably modified by listening, it started to sound
great!  Of course, an earlier example is Holst's, The Planets.  There
also was a group, a few years back, called DNA and one fervently hopes
y'all know about Sun Ra, the Intergalactic Observer Himself.
-- 
kainen@cs.umd.edu	or by FAX 202-333-2798 (to my attn)

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
From: act31797@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (The Procrastinator  P1000)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk music
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:41:19 GMT

gunnbr@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Brian R Gunn) writes:
>Does anyone else listen to cyberpunk music like Information Society??
>
>Brian

Sure do.  I highly recommend Front Line Assembly, and to a lesser extent,
Front 242.  I think Herbie Hancock's album "Sound System", although rela-
tively old, could also qualify as cyberpunk music.  Hey, who else would use
and Apple ][e as an instrument!  :-)
--
Andrew Trapp       atrapp@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
dreamer@uiuc.edu   act31797@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

"Don't steal.  The government hates competition." -- Jeff Cooper
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
From: kellye@taos.cs.colorado.edu (KELLY EDMOND CROCKER)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk music
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 05:02:56 GMT

A friend of mine recently interviewed Ogre and he was talking about having
concerts were the entire audience is wearing VR gear!!  WOW, what an experience
that would be! 

That won't be happening for a while though. However, there is a good chance
that my roomate...and possibly myself will be working on computer animation
and graphics to be projected on screen durring upcoming Skinny Puppy shows!!!
You can bet you ass that I'm hoping for that mor than life itself!


Isn't Ogre going to be starring in an upcoming cyberpunk movie???



well, I'v said my peace for now...

			---->> The Watcher

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
From: rwyatt@niji.claremont.edu (Robert Wyatt)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk music
Organization: Harvey Mudd College
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 01:50:18 GMT

You're right Andrew, Front Line Assembly is pretty cool.  Not a big  
Front 242 fan, though...

What about Skinny Puppy ?  They're my fave !  And any side projects  
with Ogre (Hilt, etc.) are worth checking out !

On a completely different tangent, I bought the original soundtrack  
to the film "Metropolis" rerecordered in 3D Audio.  I saw the ad in  
issue 5 of Mondo.  It's actually pretty cool - if you have a great  
surround sound system, or use headphones.  Apparently it is the first  
Virtual Audio recording.  Anyone know of any others ?
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
From: rwyatt@niji.claremont.edu (Robert Wyatt)
Subject: Re: cybermusic
Organization: Harvey Mudd College
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 03:03:09 GMT

> Definitely. And, of course, the presence of Ministry, Pigface,  
Revolting
> Cocks, Consolidated, and (my favorite (they're from my hometown))  
Voice of
> God cannot be ignored.

Christopher-
Who are Voice of God ?  Never heard of them.  Where are you from ?   
Are they strictly a local act, or have they released anything I might  
be able to find ?  I love hearing about new (to me) bands.

-Robert
From: birdman@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Christopher Kush)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
Subject: cybermusic
Keywords: angry young man
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:45:44 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois



This really isn't cyberpunk music, since it got labeled industrial first.  But
all that means is a different syntax except for the ideas.  In many ways, the
only difference between Neuromancer/Bladerunner and RealLifeUSA1992 is the
technological sophistication.

>What about Skinny Puppy ?  They're my fave !  And any side projects  
>with Ogre (Hilt, etc.) are worth checking out !

Definitely. And, of course, the presence of Ministry, Pigface, Revolting
Cocks, Consolidated, and (my favorite (they're from my hometown)) Voice of
God cannot be ignored.

>to the film "Metropolis" rerecordered in 3D Audio.  I saw the ad in  
>issue 5 of Mondo.  It's actually pretty cool - if you have a great  
>surround sound system, or use headphones.  Apparently it is the first  
>Virtual Audio recording.  Anyone know of any others ?

Don't know of any music, except for some Dolby-encoded stuff from Tomita (a
Japanese cat who played classical music in the 1970s on (dig it) ANALOG
synthesizers.

ZBS Foundation, a non-profit group in Fort Edward, New York, put out Kunstkopf
Binaural (audio) recordings of Steven King novels, including The Mist, and
some other works by different authors.  They a recorded using a foam dummy
head with microphones in the ears. The effect with headphones is holographic. 

Also, ZBS has a radio drama called Ruby, up to sixteen cassettes now.  They
are all worth buying on the dialogue alone, and the recording (multilayered
Firesign-esque) gets better with each new story.  (There are four stories,
each on four cassettes - Ruby, Ruby2, Ruby3 - the Underworld, and Ruby3 - the
Invisible World.)  Ruby is a Harrison Ford type (but female) and the humor is
at times demonically black.  Really good, original stuff.


-- 
/Christopher S. Kush -- "You must have the wrong man! I spell my name Danger!"\
| "He's the voice in your head yelling 'Jump!', and he's the ambulance driver | 
| who tells you you're going to pull through..."/\#include <std_disclaimer.h> |
\internet text email: birdman@nwu.edu/\nextmail: birdman@courtney.acns.nwu.edu/
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
From: gunnbr@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Brian R Gunn)
Subject: Cyberpunk music
Reply-To: gunnbr@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Brian R Gunn)
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 19:18:46 GMT

Does anyone else listen to cyberpunk music like Information Society??

Brian
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement