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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:04:11 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Bush Speaks
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:48:54 MST Roger said:
>For all intensive purposes, he's trying his best in this doggy-dog world.

You wouldn't by chance mean "dog eat dog" would you? :{)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 02:01:02 EDT
From:         Brandon Magee <cuz@CHAOS.CS.BRANDEIS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Nattering Nabobs
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              "ZIMMERJ@WABASH.BITNET" at Sep 2, 92 7:45 pm

A person going by the name of ZIMMERJ@WABASH.BITNET forged:

| True enough, assuming that you include in the definition of "objective" the
| qualification that the material reported contains "just the facts" -- no
| superfluous opinion.  I got the impression that you agree with this.

	I agree when it is a report, ie what happened at the
Republican convention (Lots of people spoke, and they said these
things) and reaction to the Convention (Conservitives said this,
Liberals said that) [Yes, I realize these examples are vague, but I
trust you get my point]. However, Opinion pieces/Commentaries, as long
as the opinion was formed due to undisputable facts, should not be
censored. In a perfect world, a magazine could run two opinion pieces
(Pro/Con), however, we are not a perfect society.

| Its true that the media ought not to mindlessly "puff up" Bush's positives
| (assuming he has any -- I'm not so sure).  However, I would maintain that the
| media throw objectivity to the winds (and balance, too) by keeping Bush in a
| catch-22 where everything he does is "wrong" in the eyes of the media.


	Your point would be well taken if it was true. I don't believe
it is.

| For example, Bush was wrong for not sending help to Florida sooner.
| Now, when he proposes rebuilding a military base to maintain the local
| economy (and a few other minor projects), he's "wrong" for
| capitalizing upon a disaster for political gain.  He's damned if he
| does something and damned if he doesn't.  That type of coverage is
| neither objective nor balanced.

	I don't want to get involved in the debate of whether or not
Bush was in the right or wrong on sending aid. I believe there was a
lot of political pandering on both sides. However, the media has not
been saying Bush was at fault, the people of Florida are. Most
commentators agree that there were many different problems/All the
Blame (or even most of it) can't go to Bush. However, The rebuilding
of Homestead AF Base is a totally different story. Homestead is/was a
base that will be/would have been shut down within the next two years.
So, the question becomes, do you rebuild it and keep it open, rebuild
it and close it as originally planned, or say "We are sorry a Natural
Disaster did this. However, the base was to be closed within the next
two years, and it would be silly of us to rebuild a base to close it."
That is capitilizing for political gain, as is paying for all disaster
relief. (A cut to 10% so that Florida won't bust a gut, I understand.
Full Compensation is a ploy for political gain).

--
 Cousin It                                    cuz@cs.brandeis.edu
    I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't
         always agree with them    -President George Bush
From: CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: read my lips: I have family values
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:27:00 GMT
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My impression of the community boards in the NYC public school system is that
they were pretty dismal.  They people who ran them were not only functional
illiterates, they were also crooked.

Chris Morrison
Oh, and I forgot biggots.
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:52:00 EDT
From:         GRACZ1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Bosnia conflict

>>     Don't you think that the US has some responsibilities in the
>>   world simply because we are capable of doing something?
>
>No, and even if I did, why is Bosnia more important than other
>things that we could do with the required resources?

    OK, then what are the resources for?  I say, if we don't use
  our vast military to at least try and prevent some suffering,
  we should just scrap most of it and only keep what we would need to
  defend ourselves.

>>   The US is the only country left with a military force capable of exerting
>>   powerful force on its own anywhere in the world.
>
>But Bosnia isn't "anywhere in the world"; it is in Europe's backyard.
>There are at least TWO european powers that could "do something"
>without any help, and several others that could cooperate.

     My anger and disappointment is not solely leveled at the
  US government.  However, just because they don't do anything doesn't
   mean we shouldn't, either.

>>   If the US (with the UN) had gone in a long time ago,
>>   the Serbians could have been discouraged from invading Bosnia and
>>   Croatia.
>
>How?  By threatening to nuke Croatia?  Be precise - what is the "or
>else"?  (Has the "we could easily beat the warring parties" argument
>disappeared?)

     A force stationed in a protective stance in Croatia and
    Bosnia would certainly have made the Serbians think twice
    before deciding that they wanted that land.  A couple thousand
    professionally trained and armed troops are a lot more of a deterrent
    than farmers with hunting rifles.

>>    That thinking brought the Lincoln Brigade during the Spanish
>>   Revolution, which, by the way, was Hitler's  (and Mussolini's)
>>   test of the rest of the world's resolve to oppose him.  Need I say
>>   what happened after that?
>
>No, you need to explain how that's relevant.  (I know a dancing,
>vegetarian, dog-loving German male with a mustache, but I'm not well
>placed for the start of a fourth reich.)  Who's playing Germany and do
>they get Italy this time?

       I was just trying to say that the volunteer force in the Spanish
     Revolution really didn't help out the cause (keeping Franco out
     of power).  I'm not trying to create another Hitler (unlike
     GHWB)

>-andy

       --G. Racz
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 02:54:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: read my lips: I have family values

On the other hand, in 1962 I was sent off to a private school in New Hampshire
called Pembroke Place in Suncook, near Concord.  One of my teachers taught a
course in English and a course in Ancient History.  As a text for the
Ancient History he used the Bible.  He was a Christian Scientist, and he
died in Mexico (the school spent the winters there) from taking alka-seltzer
for pain from a bleeding ulcer.  After he died, we found he had a very
large collection of pornographic pictures of young boys.  The school was
stuck in Mexico, had to find a replacement, found someone who had moved down
there because his wife had a bad heart.  He was British, his claim to be
an Oxford graduate may or may not have been true, but he was a very good
teacher anyway.  I zigged and zagged back and forth between private and
public schools, and the private schools generally had smaller classes,
but you never knew what you were going to get there.  Of course this was
all before gifted classes.  Sometimes I think that gifted classes' real
purpose is to get the bright little monsters out of the way of the administra-
tion so the rest of the students can be more effectively brainwashed into
their proper role in life as drudges.

Chris Morrison
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:05:29 EDT
From:         todd pukanecz <CCCS@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      NEA funding

I've been wanting to do this for a while....
[enter Jay S Sultan mode]
  For those of you who want to strip funding for the National Endowment
for the Arts, let me remind you that you will be taking away jobs from
the community.  The jobs lost from the dismantling of the NEA are not
only the thousands of dancers, singers, musicians, actors, and sculptors
that the Endowment supports, but also the thousands of support people
they employ; stage hands, electricians, custodians, and museum curators.
  I hope you people can sleep at night knowing that by saving yourself
64 cents you have crippled the economy.
[end JSS mode]
  Surprisingly, I must agree with Jay.
     todddddddddd

=========== Wake up John Doe.  You're the hope of the world! ===========
--------     /^^\    ---- Todd Pukanecz ----   ----  CCCS@VTVM1  ----
-----      /      >   --- Ag. Econ. DPL --- "It is not enough to be
---  /\_ / @       \   -- Virginia Tech --   Hungarian.  One must also
-  /________________>   - Blacksburg VA -    have talent." - UNKNOWN
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 12:36:27 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      bill of responsibilities

Hi, y'all:
I've been thinking about this ever since MacPhil posted the question.  I
don't pretend to have the answers, but I'd sure be interested in discussing
this further.  To that end, here are some tentative (and probably half-
baked) thoughts.

First, I place the source of the rights I value and argue about in the
Constitution.  Thus, I looked to the constitution to find the
responsibilities that go along with those rights (yes, I agree that rights
and responsibilities go hand-in-hand).  Unfortunately, I don't find a whole
lot of discussion of individual responsibilities in the document.  So I
thought about the Preamble -- a statement of goals can, I figured, give me
a clue about what my responsibilites are.  Here's what I've come up with.

In order to form a more perfect union:  this suggests that the whole point
of all this is to allow a bunch of different folks to live together to our
mutual benefit.  My responsibility, then, is to buy into that overall
objective.

Establish justice:  my responsibility is to do what brni and val suggested
-- live my life without infringing on the rights of others (i.e., practice
justice in my own life).

Insure domestic tranquility:  this suggests that I have a responsibility to
abide by the law within my country (except when I think those laws are
wrong -- then I can work *peacefully* to change them.  In fact, working to
change them would sort of fall under "establish justice").

Provide for the common defense:  I have as much duty in providing defense
as anyone else (I should be eligible for the draft, e.g., although I also
leave room for C.O.)

Promote the general welfare:  I'd say this means I have a responsibility to
think about how my actions will affect those around me -- not just how they
affect myself.  This suggests, to me, that I *do* have an obligation to
live the golden rule.

Secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity:  To me,
this means at least two things.  First, I have a responsibility to work to
be sure the rights I value (the "blessings of liberty") apply to everyone.
Second, if those rights will also apply "to posterity", then I have an
obligation to think about the long-term consequences of what I do.

What do y'all think?
Kerry
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:04:12 EDT
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: It's always the money

Regarding this notion of buying Bibles instead of supporting
arts and teach Bibles in public schools:

Say what?  You scared them out of the Churches and now you want
to follow them into public schools and force them to listen to
your "revealed truths."

(I wonder what percentage of those who are asking their version
of morality be taught in public schools send their kids to
Sunday Schools?  And if that is a high number, why isn't Sunday
School enough?)

What happened to the idea of free market.  If it is such a good
product, why don't people buy it voluntarily?  Why does it have
to be subsidized by the government?

Obviously I am being a bit difficult here.  I acknowledge the fact
that people wish that their version of morality was being taught
in public schools.  But this is a two-edged sword.  It is possible
that, even if Christianity is being taught at public schools, your
kids would still be taught things against your morality codes.

Besides all this winning about Christianity not being taught in
public schools serves only to cheapen the religion.  I say it
again, if it is such a good idea, why aren't the Churches filled
with people, and if they are, why isn't that enough?

--KAT
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 11:53:52 -0400
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Is homosexuality immoral?

 *** Resending note of 09/11/92 02:47


 >There are lots of "moral codes," but only one way to heaven.  However,
 >the truth or falsity of this statement is irrelevant to the current
 >debate, since we are discussing public morality, which may or may not
 >be religiously based, and which may or may not point in that direction.
 >In this country, public morality has largely been shaped with reference
 >to the tenets of the Judeo-Christian ethic.  Thus, it is a fair subject
 >for discussion with reference to this issue, and the debate is meaningfully
 >advanced by discussion of the content of that ethic.  However, other moral
 >codes, particularly those to which American law and tradition make no
 >positive reference, merely serve to confuse the issue.
 >
 >--Missy P 2 B

 As Missy just stated, the Judeo-Christian ethic has long been our standard
 of morality.  The Supreme Court has engravings in the wall straight out of
 the Bible.  The President of our nation is sworn in on the Bible.  Take note
 that the Koran, or any other standard, is not used.  As far as I know, it's
 never even been considered.  Makes you wonder how anyone could have given any
 credibility to the phrase "separation of church and state".

 ---Robert
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re:      re: homosexuality
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:06:57 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <POLITICS%92090910505751@OHSTVMA.IRCC.OHIO-STATE.EDU>,         
SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET writes:
>  how his lifestyle could *become* a problem to me/my family.  If he ever took
>  the initiative to verbally justify or otherwise defend his lifestyle, to me
>  or my child, our relationship would most certainly experience a radical
>  change.  You see, I can accept *him* but not his way of life.  The homosexual
>  lifestyle was/is/will always be immoral and completely unacceptable.
> 
>  ---Robert

With friends like this, who needs fascists?
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 02:27:19 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Pennies from Heaven

Roger:

If we put the Bible in the classroom, why would we need to have
doctrine?  They can just *read* it.  I don't believe Robert
suggested *teaching* from it--that would require additional
revenues.

How 'bout it, Robert?  Shall we empty some other totally useless
federal strongbox to get some Bible teachers in there?  (How about
Rural Electrification?)

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 11:40:14 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: Andy, Leader and maybe Dave on the Environment

-andy:
>Why are we assuming that the producers will neither raise the price
>nor increase production?  (While the demand for $10k Jaguars is much
>larger than the supply, Jaguars are sold for $35k; the demand at $35k
>does match the supply.  Sure, as a result I drive a Datsun, but ....)

Well, the legal producers might raise the price and they might try to
increase production.  But another short-term possibility is for poachers to
make up some of the difference in supply (see, your analogy doesn't quite
work -- no one can provide a 10K Jaguar; poachers can quite readily provide
ivory).

>Corn producers don't eat/sell their seed corn when the price goes up;
>why would elephant producers be any different?  Only starving people
>kill THEIR golden goose, others protect it, milk it, and breed more.
>Since elephants are valuable (both in reality and by Kerry's
>assumption) and don't take all that long to reach "market" age,*
>elephant producers won't starve if they get the money.  If we insist
>on giving that money to someone else, they will.
>
>While many people will piss in other people's/common wells, few will
>piss in their own well.

Well, elephant producers might well be more starving right now than corn
producers.  And I can think of quite a few cases of harvesting resources
more quickly than they can be replaced (old growth timber, ground water,
white-tailed deer in CA, passenger pigeons, Stellars sea cow, fossil fuels,
etc.).  So, although I agree that making resource preservation an
economically valuable activity, I don't see how a simple market model will
necessarily solve the problem.  We still need to address the question of
sustainability in those cases for which a sustainable harvest (1) does not
meet current demand and (2) can be readily circumvented by simply speeding
up the harvest rate.

Kerry
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 11:40:08 EST
From:         Diane Alexander <alexandd@GVSU.EDU>
Subject:      Missy: no D*I*N*K*S allowed?????
Comments: To: KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET, POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

   So what's your point, Missy? Are you saying that couples who can't have
   or decide not to have children have no business getting married?  Should
   my husband & I file for divorce? Besides, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO
   WITH POLITICS ANYWAY??!!!!

   Geeze, when is this thread going to stop? It's been going on for ages.
   My fingers are getting tired from hitting the delete key so often.
   Perhaps you should think about starting a MORALITY-L list.

   Diane
   alexandd@gvsu.edu

   PS: Does anyone know if Bill Clinton is still planning on coming to East
   Lansing for the alleged debate? What's GHWB's problem? Is Baker pulling
   his strings or is GHWB just yanking our chains?

*DINK: double income, no kids
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 19:26:55 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is homosexuality immoral?

Michael:

Can you then explain why Franklin insisted that the meetings of the
constitutional convention in 1787 begin with prayer every morning?

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:11:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Mother of all election promises.

You are right.  If he is sacrificing his presidency for his principles, I
take my hat off to him (I will have to put one on for the purpose because
I am not wearing one).  Only it will be the first time I have seen him doing
that (no, not taking his hat off).

Chris Morrison
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:26:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: ERA

Because they're all queers and piccaninies, Robert, why else?

Chris Morrison
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:51:09 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: what to do in a world that trivializes intelligence

Missy J:
(good stuff deleted)
>But don't try to tell me that the problem is that we don't have enough
>money.  My friend taught in a one-room Mennonite schoolhouse, K-12.
>Very little funding, no frills.  And near 100% graduation rates.
>The problem isn't money.  The problem is that we come to education with
>the assumption that we should try to be just like tv.  And we end up with
>adults that read no newspapers and watch 50 hours of tv a week.  Surprise.

I agree that the things you mention are problems.  But money can also be a
problem -- not so much in the total dollars, but in the distribution of
dollars.  It *is* the case that some schools are without working lavatories
(hi, Dunstan), and have problems even coming up with basic materials.
Others, of course, have computers, greenhouses, professional photography
labs, etc.  Sheesh!

Of course, with so much education funding being derived from local tax
bases, this inequality isn't surprising.  But it would be nice if all kids
could be assured at least the basics.  And if parents want to supplement
with goodies, they should be able to.  I am, however, still trying to find
out how all the whiz-bang accessories really help kids with the three R's.

Kerry
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