HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley)
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:52:10 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer

In article <1992Dec19.000239.11451@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, tariqh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk
(Tariq Hamid) wrote:
> 
> In <lsr-181292122440@lsr.taligent.com> lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein) writes:
> 
> >Even if there wasn't a boycott against Apple the GNU software (especially
> >GCC) wouldn't be ported to the Mac OS as a matter of course simply because
> >their focus is Unix-like machines and it's relatively hard to port some of
> >the software to the Mac.
> 
> 
> Rubbish. The GCC compiler is available for the IBM PC, et al. And this version 
> in particular is _excellent_ e.g. it supports 128Mbytes of virtual memory.
> 

What's rubbish?  That the GNU focus is on UN*X machines, or that its hard
to port UN*X like software to the Mac?

And the 128Mbytes support for the PC requires a DOS extender.  I've lost
track... Did Microsoft ever release a 32bit DOS extender?  I remember that
when the first public domain extenders & GCC appeared for PCs, they didn't
have support for graphics, mouse, etc.  That was two years ago... Has it
changed at all?

So using a rough comparison, the PC is more like UN*X in that it has a
command line interface and so forth.  The Mac environment, with pull down
menus and no command line interface, is less like UN*X than the PC is.

But there is a solution: Porting a UN*X like tool to the Mac is easy if you
do it within the MPW environment.  I've ported a variety of my MSDOS & UN*X
tools to MPW.

Why?  MPW has UN*X like features (scripting, make, projector, custom tools,
limited piping, etc.)  Tools can have command line options and so forth. 
Custom tools (cross compilers & assemblers), scripts, and projector are the
reasons why I don't use Think C.  I build a software pack

You can find earlier versions of GCC ported to the MPW environment.  I
can't remember, don't they use the MPW linker, assembler, and libraries?

Unfortunately the GNU "copyleft" for GCC (and their varients of lex &
yacc), prevent me from using those tools for commercial work.  Not that I
think FSF cares much about an Apple employee not using a GNU tool, but I
suggest you read the GNU documents carefully before using their tools to
produce a commercial product.


Craig Keithley
Apple Computer, Inc.
keithley@apple.com
"I have absolutely no responsibility in this matter, what-so-ever"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: davek@netcom.com (David Kramer)
Subject: How can I learn TCL?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 20:43:43 GMT



I have two questions.  One, where is the FAQ for this newsgroup (is there
one?).  Second, what would you recommend as a tutorial-instructional book
for using OOP, specifically TCL with THINK C 5.0 (or Pascal 4.0, if
necessary).  I've looked through the OOP manual that came with THINK C,
but it seems more of a reference than a learning experience.  I'm looking
for something like the Macintosh Programming Primers, by Dave Mark and
Christopher Reed.  Thanks in advance.

-David

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Prograph Educational Price.
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:43:03 GMT

I was surprised to see Prograph selling at one of our local bookstores for
$133.00 educational price.  It seems to me that we payed something like
$250 educational price.  Anyonw know which is right?
-Terry
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Prograph Educational Price.
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:43:06 GMT

Andrew.Cohill@vtssi.vt.edu (Andrew Michael Cohill) writes:
>I believe if you call Prograph and fax a student id or something they 
>will sell you direct at 50% off, which is what most software companies 
>do.  You can't really expect them to undercut their dealers.

Yeah that's how we ordered prograph to being with.  Since the retail is
$495 that means we paid $250.  I'm not that concerned about it since we bought
it for my department but if I had paid persoanlly for it I would be rather
upset.  Who said anything about expecting them to undercut their dealers?
-Terry
From: orpheus@reed.edu (P. Hawthorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: The Member Function: Spawn Of Satan?
Date: 13 Dec 92 14:45:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec13.144549.24447
Organization: Reed College, Portland OR

In Object C and Pascal, the member function reveals whether a given object
is descended from a given class. I wonder if it is good or bad to use it.
It seems un-structured. What would Djikstra say?

When I use it, I invariably feel guilty. I worry that perhaps a seriously
abstract class variable could formalize whatever notions are at work. Or I
think that it is a kludge so that I can put off a total overhaul until I
figure out how to work in the exceptional classes. That sort of thing.

So then, am I just an OO-prude?

Dumbfounded,
Theus (orpheus@reed.edu)
From: to5232@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: What is MPW?
Date: 20 Dec 92 17:18:19 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Can someone explain to me what MPW is?  As far as I can tell MPW (Macintosh
Programmer's Workbench) is some type of development shell that is capable of
simulating the C++ programming language through CFRONT.  Can someone provide me
a detailed explanation of MPW?  Please E-Mail me, as I do not feel that it is
necessary to clutter up the newsgroup with everyone's explanation of MPW. 
Unless, of course it would be beneficial to do so.

Thanks,

Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:89 comp.sys.mac.programmer:19895
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: 16 Dec 92 06:23:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

toma@baritone (Thomas Arneberg) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.195344.10218@reed.edu> bowman@reed.edu (BoBoRamDos) writes:
>Can someone tell me how similar MPW is to the C-shell in Unix? I've been an
>avid USER of the Mac fan since the early days ('84), but to this day I have 
>never PROGRAMMED on the Mac. I'm too hooked on vi, make, history (!), grep, 
>awk, pipes, shell scripts, and other features of Unix on my SparcStation.

     MPW is modelled on the UNIX Programmer's Workbench, circa 1978, and
offers roughly the same level of functionality.  It was state of the art
when Apple picked it as a model, even though it's been bypassed by
more modern environments.  It predates the C shell, although some
pattern-matching has been bolted on.


					John Nagle
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
From: keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley)
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:53:40 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer

In article <keithley-181292171536@kip2-37.apple.com>, keithley@apple.com
(Craig Keithley) wrote:
> 
> Tools can have command line options and so forth. 
> Custom tools (cross compilers & assemblers), scripts, and projector are the
> reasons why I don't use Think C.  I build a software pack
> 

And I seem to have trailed off.  I guess I posted the wrong file.  Here's
what I was trying to say:  The result of the build process is a single file
(binary or S-record) that contains object code for 680xx and non-680xx
processors.  One file, two or three different processors.

Sorry about that fade-out.

In article <BzHqzF.D7w@acsu.buffalo.edu>, okeefe@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Paul
O'Keefe) wrote:
> 
> 
> So, I suspect that it's Apple's conservative legal policy and not the copyleft
> that prevents Craig from using GCC.
> 

Its very important that you don't take my non-use of the GNU tools as an
indication that you shouldn't use said tools.  I've heard really good
things about the GNU suite of tools, and under different circumstances, I'd
probably use them myself.  

But I stand by my suggestion that you carefully read the GNU documents
(especially for GCC & Bison) before using or porting GNU tools.  This
suggestion  holds true for any software development tool.  These days, with
run-time licenses, copyrights, copylefts, and so forth, its very important
that the software developer understand her or his rights, responsibilities,
and liabilities.


Craig Keithley
Apple Computer, Inc.
keithley@apple.com
"I have absolutely no responsibility in this matter, what-so-ever"
From: mspace@netcom.com (Brian Hall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Think C Class and The Apple Event Object Model
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:10:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

yjc@po.cwru.edu (Jerome 'TofuSoft' Chan) writes:
>Is there going to be an upgrade/rewrite to TCL to support AE Object Model?
>Curious Minds Want To Know.

Not that I know of!  I wis they would, I ended up handling all that stuff
myself, and it is not as elegant as it could be done by Symantec.

-- 
 
 \ | /   | Brian Hall                 mspace@netcom.com
 - : -   | Mark/Space Softworks       Applelink: markspace
  /|\    |                            America Online: MarkSpace
 |-+-|   |
/-\|/-\  | PUI: Programming Under the Influence.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: Bob Cent <cent@u.washington.edu>
Subject: ViewEdit question
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A754E162CA010B23@cent.rprc.washington.edu>
X-Xxdate: Wed, 16 Dec 92 13:36:34 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:32:58 GMT

I want to make a window with ViewEdit that can only be enlarged in the
vertical direction when one drags the "grow box" (a window like you see
when you configure a TView while in ViewEdit).

My window now has a TView and TScroller in it.  In both TView and
TScroller I have selected horizontal "fixedsize" so when I move the
window's "grow box" the vertical scrollbar stays where it should, but the
window gets larger horizontally.  It looks odd because the scrollbar is
left hanging inside the window.

How can I keep the window horizontal size fixed?  What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

Bob Cent  (cent@u.washington.edu)
University of Washington, SJ-50
Seattle, WA  98195
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:112 comp.sys.mac.programmer:20040
From: wallich@ncd.com (Ken Wallich)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:57:36 GMT
Reply-To: wallich@ncd.com (Ken Wallich)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc

edw@distant.uucp (Ed Watkeys) writes:

>I don't know if I'm reading the APDA price lists correctly, but it seems to
>me that in order to get MPW w/ C and C++, one needs to shell out an insane
>amount of money, somewhere around $600. Is this correct? Does any other place
>sell MPW, perhaps at a slightly lower price? I'm beginning to really like
>THINK C, especially since it cost me $50 through Drexel.

Nope, you're reading it right.  Seems Apple, in their infinite
stupidity, has decided to make the Mac a "professional development
machine".  This means *expensive* licenses for *all* their development
tools.  MacTCP and MPW among the lucky packages to get "revenue
enhanced".  Gotta pay for all that cheap hardware someplace.

I think like everything the bean counters and managers don't
understand why a product gets popular.  After all, the folks inside
Apple get all this for free, so the street price doesn't matter.  They
figure that "professional developers" can afford the outrageous
prices, forgetting that the small independent developer is what helps
make the machine a success.  Look at all the cheap stuff you can get
for windows, *including* the development kit.

Basically, Apple is shooting itself in the pocketbook, and virtually
guarenteeing that people will give up all the cool and better stuff
on the Mac for inferior, but affordable stuff on a heap like Windows.

Either that or they want to boost sales of ThinkC and encourage people
to write a real shell so you can use gcc with it instead of MPW.

At least the prices aren't up their with the NeXT box (yet)...


--
---
Ken Wallich

wallich@ncd.com ~ ken@wallich.com ~ kmw@al.org ~ [...]decwrl!vixie!amber!ken
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 18:53:33 GMT

wallich@ncd.com (Ken Wallich) writes:
>Nope, you're reading it right.  Seems Apple, in their infinite
>stupidity, has decided to make the Mac a "professional development
>machine".  This means *expensive* licenses for *all* their development
>tools.  MacTCP and MPW among the lucky packages to get "revenue
>enhanced".  Gotta pay for all that cheap hardware someplace.

      Apple Developer Relations has been trying to convince developers
not to switch to working on Windows products.  They're not succeeding.
A few months back, Microsoft had to get a parade permit at a developer's
conference so they could stop traffic to get 5000 people across the street.
What's really discouraging is finding vendors putting more effort into
their OS/2 versions than their Mac versions.  The priority list for big
developers is beginning to look like 1) Windows 2) OS/2 3) UNIX, NeXT, Mac. 
Check the feature lists of which features are in which versions for
multi-platform products.  The Mac seems to lag, with the notable exception
of products for the graphic arts fields.

      Apple seems to be putting their efforts into their "strategic alliance"
with IBM, and into "personal digital assistants".  With IBM going into
the tank (25,000 more layoffs announced this week) and "personal digital
assistants" still vaporware, one wonders if it is time for some top
management changes at Apple.

      Mac laptops are selling very well.  The Mac interface seems to be a 
winner for laptops.  Yet Apple doesn't seem to be trying to capitalize on
this.

					John Nagle
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
From: toma@baritone (Thomas Arneberg)
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 11 Dec 92 15:58:50 CST

In article <1992Dec11.195344.10218@reed.edu> bowman@reed.edu (BoBoRamDos) writes:
>As much as I love the Mac, the command line interface with piping has some
>*really nice* things about it.  Grepping, scripting, complete customization
>of the environment, all these things make MPW invaluable to me.  It's so
>easy, for instance, to search through MacApp for examples of how to do various
>things; it's so easy to search through your source looking for *anything*.
>Then you can write a script to intelligently change what needs to be changed.
>Not to mention Projector.

Can someone tell me how similar MPW is to the C-shell in Unix? I've been an
avid USER of the Mac fan since the early days ('84), but to this day I have 
never PROGRAMMED on the Mac. I'm too hooked on vi, make, history (!), grep, 
awk, pipes, shell scripts, and other features of Unix on my SparcStation.

Also, isn't it true that MPW is the only platform on which you can program
in C++? If not, what other product is there? (A related question -- does
anyone know if MPW C++ supports templates?)

Thanks,
  - Tom A. (Mac programmer wannabe)
---------------------------------------------+------------------------------
;-) I'd rather be ____  Thomas R. Arneberg   | Internet: toma@cray.com
:-) singing in a |____| Senior IC Design Eng.| UUCP: ...!uunet!cray!toma
:-) Barbershop  _|   _| Cray Research, Inc.  | CLAIM TO FAME: Loni Anderson 
:-) Quartet!   (_)  (_) Chippewa Falls, Wisc.|   went to my high school 
---------------------------------------------+------------------------------
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:118 comp.sys.mac.programmer:20065
From: tariqh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Tariq Hamid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:02:39 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <lsr-181292122440@lsr.taligent.com> lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein) writes:

>In article <1992Dec16.132756.20642@gssec.bt.co.uk>, agauld@gssec.bt.co.uk
>(Alan Gauld) wrote:
>> 
>> around)... Since Apple are thus hindering development of quality software he
>> doesn't believe they should be able to use "his" (ie GNU) software. I'm not

>We're both putting words into his mouth, but I think he objects to
>supporting Apple hardware and he also encourages people not to purchase
>Apple products, not to work for Apple, etc.  

>> sure I agree with him but I do respect his views and ponder the morality of
>> porting GNU stuff to Apple platforms when the authors would rather it wasn't
>> done... Shouldn't the "porter" just go out and write his own?

>Perhaps that's true.  But there's a conflict in that his approach is that
>the software should be unencumbered so that anyone can do anything s/he
>wants with it and that all changes should be equally unencumbered.  So by
>that philosophy, it's perfectly reasonable for people to port it to the
>Mac.

>Even if there wasn't a boycott against Apple the GNU software (especially
>GCC) wouldn't be ported to the Mac OS as a matter of course simply because
>their focus is Unix-like machines and it's relatively hard to port some of
>the software to the Mac.

>Larry Rosenstein
>Taligent, Inc.

>lsr@taligent.com

Rubbish. The GCC compiler is available for the IBM PC, et al. And this version 
in particular is _excellent_ e.g. it supports 128Mbytes of virtual memory.

--

Tariq Hamid	                 	Internet:  tariqh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk
 Department of Computer Science  	JANET:     tariqh@uk.ac.qmw.dcs
  Queen Mary & Westfield College  
   Mile End Road                   	  Telephone:  +44 71-975 5245
    LONDON, E1 4NS, UK             	  Fax:        +44 81-980 6533
From: art@physics.berkeley.edu (Art Ferruzzi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Prograph
Date: 14 Dec 1992 23:53:41 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley
Distribution: world
Reply-To: art@physics.berkeley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics20.berkeley.edu
Keywords: mac,oop,Prograph

I vote in advance for a Prograph newsgroup.

art@physics.berkeley.edu
___________________________________________
All disclaimers apply.



Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:97 comp.sys.mac.programmer:19939
From: knee@netcom.com (Mark Lanett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: 16 Dec 92 23:27:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:

>agauld@gssec.bt.co.uk (Alan Gauld) writes:
>>A small point but I don't think Stallman has anything against Macs. 
>>Its Apple he doesn't like (and anyone else who throws copyright suits 
>>around)... Since Apple are thus hindering development of quality software he

After a number of people complained that the FSF is being hypocritical becuase
a large number of companies, not just Apple, follow litigenous practictices,
a FSF member admitted that they realize that and chose Apple mainly as an
example, that it would not be possible for them to boycott *everyone* who
did it. So I don't think any Maccer should feel guilty about using GNU
software.

(I may mean GNU instead of FSF; it's hard to tell them apart)

Mark L
-- 
/* Mark Lanett */
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
From: toma@baritone (Thomas Arneberg)
Subject: gnu on Mac (was: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!)
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 16 Dec 92 16:38:34 CST

In article <BzDBL1.Dt@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:
>agauld@gssec.bt.co.uk (Alan Gauld) writes:
>>A small point but I don't think Stallman has anything against Macs. 
>>Its Apple he doesn't like (and anyone else who throws copyright suits 
>>around)... Since Apple are thus hindering development of quality software he
>
>Everyone in the computer industry does the lawsuit thing, Stallman doesn't
>like Apple becasue the Mac is a closed system.
>-Terry

Excerpts from the gcc.info-1 file in the gcc 2.3.1 distribution:

   [...]

   Apple and Lotus are trying to create a new form of legal monopoly: a
   copyright on a class of user interfaces.  These monopolies would cause
   serious problems for users and developers of computer software and
   systems.  Xerox, too, has tried to make a monopoly for itself on window
   systems; their suit against Apple was thrown out on a technicality, but
   Xerox has not said anything to indicate it wouldn't try again.

   [...]

   If companies like Xerox, Lotus, and Apple are permitted to make law
   through the courts, the precedent will hobble the software industry:
      
   * Software will become and remain more expensive.  Users will be
     "locked in" to proprietary interfaces, for which there is no real
     competition.
	     
   * User interface improvements will come slower, since incremental
     evolution through creative imitation will no longer be permitted.

   * Even Apple, etc., will find it harder to make improvements if
     they can no longer adapt the good ideas that others introduce,
     for fear of weakening their own legal positions.  Some users
     suggest that this stagnation may already have started.

   [...]

   Here are some suggestions from the League [for Programming Freedom] for 
   things you can do to protect your freedom to write programs:
    
       * Don't buy from Xerox, Lotus or Apple.  Buy from their competitors
         or from the defendants they are suing.

       * Don't develop software to work with the systems made by these
 	 companies.
		 
       * Above all, don't work for the look-and-feel plaintiffs, and don't
         accept contracts from them.
	 
       [...]
	     

I don't know who wrote this file, but THEY sure don't like Apple! Too
bad...it sure would be nice to get a free C++ compiler on the Mac...

  - Tom A.
---------------------------------------------+------------------------------
;-) I'd rather be ____  Thomas R. Arneberg   | Internet: toma@cray.com
:-) singing in a |____| Senior IC Design Eng.| UUCP: ...!uunet!cray!toma
:-) Barbershop  _|   _| Cray Research, Inc.  | CLAIM TO FAME: Loni Anderson 
:-) Quartet!   (_)  (_) Chippewa Falls, Wisc.|   went to my high school 
---------------------------------------------+------------------------------
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:78 comp.sys.mac.programmer:19691