Organization: Dewey Decimal
Date: Thursday, 9 Apr 1992 15:12:54 EDT
From: Joy Haftel <JKH107@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: The March in D.C.
 <92099.171526JKH107@psuvm.psu.edu> <17843@oasys.dt.navy.mil>

In article <17843@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
says:
>
>In talk.abortion, JKH107@psuvm.psu.edu (Joy Haftel) writes:
>>In article <17805@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
>>says:

>>What about not killing it at all unless it's absolutely necessary?

>Absolutely necessary, in what sense? It is absolutely necessary, IMO,
>when the woman doesn't want to be pregnant. If she doesn't want to be
>pregnant, a fetus can't be inside her. So it has to go.

Absolutely necessary:

1) Cases where a woman's life or health is at risk because of the
   pregnancy.  Cases where a doctor would recommend an abortion
   on medical grounds.  Health includes mental health.  Cases where
   rape was a factor.

2) Cases where there is such serious deformity that the child would
   die soon after birth or live as a vegetable.  Cases of incest
   because risks of genetic problems are extremely high and because
   incest often includes rape.

3) Cases where the natural parents are incapable of supporting the
   child and where *NO OTHER MEANS CAN BE FOUND* for supporting the
   child.

>To me, since I don't believe it is a sentient being, it resembles the
>sixth finger or toe that some are born with. With your reasoning, it
>should not be removed, with mine, I have no problem with removing it.

Is your sixth finger or toe likely to grow into a "sentient being"?

>>>have made the leap of faith here that you are not bothered by killing
>>>the roach or fly or flea, organisms that are much more complex than
>>>an 8 week old fetus in that they are fully functional and can fend for
>>>themselves.

>>Neither are newborns fully functional and able to fend for themselves.

>First impression, you have no problem with the concept of death in general,
>the problem lies with when you define a human being as existing.

Oh, I have a problem with death.  I don't like it.  I realize it
happens, but I don't want to see it happen to people too early.

>>Yet we don't condone killing them.

>Yes, correct, but they are not parasitic on another person. Plus, the

They are not parasitic...but they do take a lot of time and care.
In fact a newborn who requires breast feeding (in some places this
is the only option) is semi-parasitic also.

>*willingness* of someone to carry a a baby to term implies (at least
>to me) a *willingness* to accept responsibility for it. In times past,

Carrying a child to term does not always show a willingness to accept
responsibility for it.  There are people who have babies and abandon
them, women who give their children to the natural father, people who
put their children up for adoption, etc.

>before ultrasound and other diagnostic tools and  abortions, people
>would wait until the birth of a child, if it didn't meet their expectations,
>including gender, they would leave the child staked to a hillside somewhere
>to starve to death. This is no longer practiced, nor do I advocate it,
>as I, and I imagine the rest of the world, find it unnecessarily cruel
>and inhumane. One of the reasons I find it so is because we do have
>the option of abortion, so are no longer required to 'wait and see'
>what comes out, a happy healthy child, or a mortally deformed  baby
>that will die.

So you are saying that a few months earlier, it is ok to kill the small
human, but after that it is "unnecessarily cruel and inhumane"?

>>If we look at the fetus alone, the only thing protecting a human being
>>from being killed is its stage of development.  I'm not sure that's the best
>>criterion.

>This depends on your definition of human being. I don't think an 8 week
>old fetus qualifies as anything other than human, I certainly would
>not rank it as a human being, as this implies many things to me, not
>least of which is a sentient being.

Human is the adjective.  Being is the noun.  Sentient is a different
adjective.  While a fetus is not "sentient" in the sense of "having
finely tuned sensory responses", and may or may not (depending on the
stage of development be "aware" of its own existence (although not
"aware" in the psychological sense), it is a human being "something
that actually exists". (Definitions from Webster's).


Joy Haftel               "On with the dance! let joy be unconfined."
JKH107@PSUVM                          --Byron