From: ttran@cv3000.Prime.COM (T. Tran)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: CALL FOR A DIALOGUE/Reoly KB
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:03:54 GMT
Reply-To: @relay.prime.com:ttran@cv3000.Prime.COM
Organization: SCV Relay
Originator: daemon@media-lab.media.mit.edu


 First I'll like to thank Karen Bui for digging up the relevant
 paragraphs in the Pentagon Papers. I read it quite a while ago, and 
 still remember the shock and  sadness I had.

 Your interpretation of the events is clearly a valid one. But I don't
 think it materially affected what I stated:

 1/ Everyone at the time knew that the U.S sooner or later would get rid 
    of Diem because the war against the communists was running into 
    serious troubles. Remember the U.S requested Diem to force Nhu into 
    exile in order, the US hoped, to mollify the opposition, and rallied
    the SG force to concentrate on fighting the communists.
    Diem, of course, refused for a Diem without Nhu was the same as
    a Diem without Diem.
    Hence, whoever could successfully organize a coup WOULD receive
    US support. 
    The fact the Minh/Don had to make sure that the US had no objection
    confirmed the fact about who was calling the shot: they knew that 
    they would have no chance in the long run if they didn't get US 
    blessing. Of course, all involved were seasoned men of intrigues: 
    diplomatic languages were used. They, however, all knew what the 
    stakes were.

    (This was in the earlier phrase, when proper diplomatic nicety was
     still kept. Later, when the Vnese generals made a real mess of 
     things, Ambassador Maxwell Taylor called a meeting at the embassy,
     inviting all the major military players. He gave everyone quite
     a dressing down.)

 2/ The role of the CIA operative in the event -- Conine (?) I believe,
    who had direct contact with Washington WHILE the coup was in
    progress.
    Who made the decision to kill Diem/Nhu ? Was it Washington or Minh ?  
    We probably would never be able to know this for a fact, for whoever 
    made the decision certainly wouldn't leave behind a trail.
    (There was a report earlier of a national directive sent to VN via
     CIA channel re: this very question. Governement officials squashed
     the report by saying that the directive was a fake, planted to 
     discredit President Kennedy.) 

 3/ Clearly Minh/Don could continue as leaders of SVN (ie, the success
    of the coup) as long as they implemented US strategy. As soon as 
    they had other ideas (TO THEIR CREDIT THAT THEY DID), the US would
    avail themselves of someone else. And they did.

 Our difference probably lies in the meaning of the world "use", and I'd
 like to clarify it.
 There is absolutely no doubt that both Diem and Minh (and many others)
 believed THAT THEY WERE ACTING IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE VNESE.
 Even Diem might think that he was USING the US for HIS own purpose --
 fighting the communists to preserve an independent SVN, keeping it from
 falling into the orbit of the hated socialist bloc.

 The issue is who had the final say. It's like climbing on the back of
 a tiger, it's easier to get on then off. The chain of events left no 
 doubt who was in final control. 

----- Original posting (<199212082252.AA14629@sje.MENTOR.COM>) --------

From:  ttran@cv3000.prime.com (T. Tran)

**  c/ No "President" of SVN could survive without US's blessing. Actually
**     no coup d'etat in SVN could succeed without prior US backing.     
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
**     Do you ever wonder why MINH/DON were overthrown when the U.S had
**     just used them to get rid of DIEM/NHU ? They were flirting with 
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
**     the French's idea of a "neutralist" solution for VN. (General DON,
**     as you know, was an officer trained in a French prestigious  
**     military academy in colonial time.)
**     Again, please refer to the "Pentagon Papers."

If people want to overthrow the Diem government that was installed by the 
US, could they ignore the factor of dealing with the US (the government 
installer) in their coup plan? 

The answer is NO. They could not and should not ignore the US but how did
they deal with them?

As said in many history books, those generals MINH/DON did request the 
US to stay out of the coup and that was all they asked. Even in the memoir 
of Henry Cabot Lodge, "The Storm has many eyes", he also said that the 
1963 coup d'etat was a genuine Vietnamese event and even if the US want
the coup, they could not do it themselves. Likewise, if the US don't
want the coup, they could not prevent it from happening either. 

In 9 years in power, Diem and his family did so many mistakes that almost
everyone except the Catholics turned into their enemies. The last straw was 
their invasion Xa' Lo+.i temple on 20/8/63 and revelation of their attempt 
to handshake with Ha` No^.i, an unforgivable betrayal (read "War of the 
Vanquished" by Mieczylaw Maneli).

Observing what were happened during the last three months before the coup 
taking place, it was clear that NO ONE could prevent the 1963 coup d'etat 
under ANY circumstance. However, if the US takes Diem's side, the coup's 
SUCCESS could be jeopardized.

If you perused the Pentagon Papers, you may have to think twice before 
writing the above paragraph. Here are the excerpts from this book:

"According to the Pentagon account of the 1963 events in Saigon, 
Washington did not originate the anti-Diem coup, nor did American
forces intervene in any way, even to try to prevent the assassinations
of Mr. Diem and his brother" (page 159)

"Gen. Minh made it clear that he did not expect any specific American
support for an effort on the part of himself and his colleagues to 
change the Government but he states he does need American assurances
that the USG will not attempt to thwart this plan.

.

Minh further stated that one of the reasons they are having to act
quickly was the fact that many regimental, battalion and company   
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
commanders are working on coup plans of their own which could be 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
abortive and a "catastrophe". (page 214-215) 
                                                  

KB