From: gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn)
Subject: Re: NeXT vs Mac (Again) was "Need to convin
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:41:40 GMT

johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
> gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes:
> >johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
> >> wrob@unixg.ubc.ca (Robert Wong) writes:
> wrob> How about Display Postscript level 2 (PS level 2) to make your
> wrob> NeXT laser printer automatically PS 2?  (I don't think upgrading
> wrob> system software on a Mac will up the PS level on a Laserwriter
> wrob> NT/NTX)
> >> 
> >> I don't think it will do this on the NeXT; it will make the computer
> >> IMAGE with PS level 2. But what if you are using a "real" postscript
> >> printer.. does it help then?
> >
> >Um, depends on your definition of "real".  If you are going to a NeXT
> >laser printer, which is not an Apple laserwriter of course, then it
> >will most certainly print Postscript level 2.
> 
> What I meant was "a PostScript  printer".
> 
> That is a printer that understands postscript, rather than having
> the computer do it for it. Would this be upgraded?

As noted later in my comments, you can't very well to postscript level 2  
stuff to a postscript printer which does not understand postscript level 2  
(or at least, NeXT can't cause that to happen...).  The NeXT still does  
postscript level 1 to printers which don't understand level 2.  NeXT users  
do this at RPI for instance.

> wrob> How about localization support for
> wrob> Eng/French/German/Span./Italian/Swedish?
> wrob> (I think you guys got that in System 7.0 or 7.1)
> >> 
> >> We had that in system ->1.0<-;
> >> 
> >> System 5ish provided support for non-roman alphabets,  and system 7
> >> does things like context sensitive typefaces, reverse writing etc.
> >> I believe 7.1 can do mixed script systems and several other neat
> >> tricks, but I'm not very knowledgable about it.
> >
> >I've seen this claim presented before, and I think it sidesteps the
> >real point.  The Mac system did *not* support multiple languages
> >before system 7.1.  What it did was have different systems geared
> >to different languages.  This is not the same thing.
> 
> Then what IS the point?
> 
> You can USE any language you want on any Mac (so long as its Roman
> character set based, :/ ). But the menus, buttons, etc, are handled
> by the apps; Thus you need a a language-specific version of the
> app. (this goes for the Finder too, as you have noticed)

When a NeXT user tells you that the NeXT supports multiple languages, the  
point *they* are making is that a single system can let different users  
select the language of their choice.  Ie, you don't have to install the  
"german system" if you're prefer to have menu items in german.  There's one  
system, plus language packages that you install.

That is the point the *NeXT* user is trying to make.  The point you are  
countering with is really nothing more exciting than the news that the Mac  
system includes support for different fonts.  However, any one system from  
Apple came as a single language.

> System 7.1 added the ability to do this same trick with non-roman
> langauges too.

There were non-Roman languages in the Mac world before system 7.1 (and  
before system 7, for that matter).  The difference is that it was a system  
geared for that language, as opposed to a user-settable preference for a  
single (multi-language) system.

> > Before you explain resources to me, as if I am ignorant of the Mac
> > world, consider this.  If you installed the German version of system
> > 6.08 on your Mac, you would indeed have german support.  Now let's
> > say I want to use your Mac, and I want to see everything in spanish.
> > What did I have to do?  I had to install a new system, the Spanish
> > system.  Thus, the *system* did not support multiple languages.  Thus
> > I have CD-ROM's from Apple which have a few dozen different systems
> > on it, and the user decides which *system* they wanted to install.
> 
> Oh, I see. you are discounting the early Mac support of other languages
> because it could not switch on the fly.
> 
> I do not see how it is usefull to be able to do this. Nor do I see
> how you can justify discounting the support on this thing alone.

Perhaps I'm phrasing my argument poorly.  It's not that I claim that no  
version of Macintosh system software could print an "a" with an umlaut over  
it before system 7.1.

The point being made is that NeXT 3.0 supports multiple languages in a  
single system, as a user-settable preference item.  This does not discount  
the kind of multi-language support that the Mac has had for many years, it's  
just saying that NeXT has this added feature.  My understanding is that  
System 7.1 (with worldscript) is supposed to have the very same feature, so  
again I'm not saying that NeXT is doing something stunning that Apple has  
never thought of.

It's just a neat capability, and one that did not exist on the official  
Apple system software until recently.  While *you* may not see how this is  
useful, for some people it is very desirable.  There are people at RPI who  
have three different system folders on their Mac, for instance, because they  
want to do things in English, Chinese, and Japanese.  If you don't, that's  
fine.  For people who do, things like NS3.0 and (what I understand of)  
WorldScript are very welcome developments.

(in my case I'd actually be more interested in English, German, and Hebrew,  
but that's just my interests...  Maybe Spanish too, if I could remember my  
high-school spanish).

> But I am MORE than a little surprised that the NeXT keeps on disk, at all
> times, copies of all the text in all bits of the system (and apps) in
> all sorts of languages- so you can switch. Just in case you happen
> to run into a NeXT that doesn't speak your language, I guess. :/
> 
> Doesn't really sound worthwhile. How many apps support this?

There is an installation option to select which languages you want to add to  
your hard disk.  At the moment there's only about 6 or 7 languages  
available, but whichever ones you choose to install will be on the hard  
disk.  For the ones you chose to install, the user (any user) can switch  
between them by a Preferences setting (or in Mac-Speak, via a control  
panel).

This only effects the system applications which you are installing,  
obviously.  Each (3rd party) application that you install will have to do  
it's own work so that menu items come up with the right words.  Seems to me  
that applications with "standard menu items" might be automatically handled,  
but I'm not sure about that.

> >Both NeXTSTEP 3.0 and WorldScript Mac System 7.1 support multiple
> >languages, in the sense that it can be a user preference instead
> >of being a decision which is made only at installation time.
> 
> Where is this information from? I never heard this about 7.1. Thought
> it did this part the same way 7.0 did (one main langauge system, plus
> many secondary systems)

Hmm, when worldscript was explained to me, the above is pretty much exactly  
how it was described.  I don't have worldscript to say for sure though (even  
though I do have system 7.1 installed, it seems that the worldscript stuff  
doesn't come on the regular system 7.1 installation floppies).

Maybe someone who has Worldscript could jump into this and tell us if I'm  
all confused about how that works.

In any case, when a NeXT user says the system now supports multiple  
languages, they are refering to this ability to switch languages as a  
preference item.  What you are countering with is certainly an important  
feature, but it's not the same one that they (we, I guess) are refering to.   
The support *you* are refering to was also available in earlier versions of  
NeXTSTEP, it isn't the feature added in NS3.0.

--
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
ITS Systems Programmer            (handles NeXT-type mail)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy