HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting
Date: 14 Dec 92 00:14:10 GMT
Reply-To: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
>In article <1g34fqINN6j8@smurf.sti.com>, alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn) 
>writes:
>> You try to avoid square-on edge-to-edge
>> impacts whenever possible - that's how blades get broken.  In the
>> perfect broadsword parry, your opponent's edge hits your flat at a
>> shallow angle and slides off along your blade with most of its
>> momentum intact, hopefully swinging off into the distance and
>> leaving you a nice opening for a counterstrike.  If you want to
>> see this done perfectly, watch a Japanese iai-do master.
>
>	Fascinating -- I'd always believed that edge-on-flat was more
>likely to cause fractures than edge-on-edge.  Of course, that
>makes a considerable amount of sense since the body of the blade
>should be much softer than the edge -- yielding versus brittle.

	Most blades are made to flex parallel to the flat (or at least flex
the best there), while resisting flex when hit on edge, for fairly obvious
reasons.  Also, think about force/area of a hit on the edge versus a hit
on the flat - you _never_ want to parry with the edge unless you plan on
sawing your opponent to death... :-)  Another point you may have missed in
the above passage: you don't want to meet the attack dead-on, you want to
meet it at an angle, so it hits and slides or bounces up or down the
blade - i.e. deflect it, not stop it with brute force (very different that
most stage broadsword fencing I've seen).  This uses the momentum of the
attack to open the attacker up to a riposte (cut or thrust).  Certain types
of parries can lead to a single (circular) motion that is both a parry and
a riposte.

-- 
To be or not to be = 0xff
-
Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering.
{uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com  BIX: rjesup  
Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: sabaker@icaen.uiowa.edu (Sarah Anne Baker)
Subject: fencing injuries
Summary: a survey of fencing injuries
Keywords: stabbed strained sprained crumpled
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:13:23 GMT

Lets try out a new topic...
Not too long ago the USFA put out a survey to
collect information on fencing injuries, how often,
and how severe.  Soooo how many of you persons 
who got it, filled it out?  Did you have anything
to report?

For myself and my club (univ of Iowa)
we only had one injury, but it was a doozy.
Fellow had his lung nearly punctured.  And before
 you say, it couldn't happen to me listen to this.
He was a good fencer (fred), fencing a good fencer
(doug), wearing all the required protection and the
blades weren't that old. On a simutaneous attack
doug's blade hit fred's glove, 
doug's blade broke and entered fred's jacket
just above the glove and below the elbow.
It passed up his arm,
 under jacket,
 plastron, and
 t-shirt.  (he got a nasty scratch all along his arm)
(his arm had been fully extended on the
 simultaneous attack )
It entered between his ribs and "nicked" his lung.
Needless to say, fred yelled explitives and doug
removed the blade (he didn't know it had entered fred)
.  fred then lay down.  Even before he and we knew he 
was severely punctured, we sent off for ambulance, 
who being not even a block away, were there in a 
flash.  His lung never collasped
but once they got him to the emergency room in the 
hospital (the building next door) they put a chest
tube in him (no anestetic. which = VERY PAINFUL. 
 They didn't know the extend of the injury yet either 
and wanted to make sure the lung didn't collapse). 
 It was many bucks later, a new jacket, a new pair of
nickers (they cut them off, we bought him new ones) 
and he's fine and still fencing. 

I was there when it happened and I report a healthy 
respect for the word "weapon" by all for this 
"sport" we're in.

-)--------  Sarah  Baker  --------(-

ps.  I don't mean to scare off people from fencing,
I love it.  I've been fencing for more than 10 years
and have never seen anything that came close to this.
I think this was an extremely extremely rare thing
that happened, everything had to be just right to
occur.  If they hadn't been about the same height,
lefty vs righty, 
simultaneous attack,
with both arms extending straight to the other's 6,
the blade not broken very near the tip, 
not pierced the jacket 
in a patch of cloth 2 inches wide to get straight
under the plastron and other clothes, 
it never would have happened.
From: cq431@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jonathan Atleson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Fencing in Italy?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 21:19:30 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Does anyone know of a fencing salle in NE Italy, or the March region around Urbania andund
Urbania, Pesaro, or Florence?
				-Jonathan Atleson
P.S. Is there some way to keep separate the SCA and USFA crowds?  There seems t
to be a conflict of interest.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: tbpho@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Lazarus Churchyard)
Subject: Re: Maraging blades
Keywords: safe
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 16:29:20 EST


I was under the impression that maraging blades were specially forged to break
cleanly - that is to break and leave flat, blunt ends, avoiding any potentially
dangerous slivering or jaggedness. Anyone verify or disprove this?


		Lazarus Churchyard,
		aka
		Skillful Heartpiercer ;)

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: sprattli@azores.crd.ge.com (Rod Sprattling)
Subject: Fencing at RPI
Reply-To: sprattli@azores.crd.ge.com (Rod Sprattling)
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:43:11 GMT

RPI Fencers: is your salle open only to RPI students?  If
not, whom should I contact for more information on instruction
and club events?

Regards,


Rod
---
Roderick Sprattling		| No job too great, no time too small
sprattli@azores.crd.ge.com	| With feet to fire and back to wall.
From: mdc@cse.unl.edu (Michael Cornelius)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Duelling vs. "Swordfighting" (was: french grips)
Date: 16 Dec 1992 16:35:50 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cse.unl.edu

Morgan mentioned something about not seeing anyone address directly the issue of
whether a pistol grip would give a real duellist an advantage.  I wonder if
this is direct enough:

Get a hacksaw.  Cut off the (electric or blunt) tip of your epee blade.  You
now have (anyone? anyone?) a duelling sword!  Now ask yourself, if I were
facing an opponent with a similarly modified weapon, would I want a French
grip or a pistol?

I know I would want an orthopaedic grip, for the added strength and control
it gives my parries and prises-de-fer.  I learned on and stuck to a French
grip for a long time.  I believe the relaxed grip and finger techniques that
can be gleaned from using a French grip are valid and useful, translating
directly to use of the orthopaedic grips.

--
===============================================================================
Michael Cornelius        -}---------  Luck is not technique.  ---------(-
mdc@cse.unl.edu                       I'd rather be fencing!
From: schin@acs.bu.edu (neil schier)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Help I am trying to get ahold of a friend Stanford Varsity
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:56:56 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: schin@acs.bu.edu


Hello


I am trying to get ahold of a friend of mine who was on the Stanford Varsity
fencing team (I believe from '87-'90?) If you would please contact me 
I would appreciate it 

Thanks 
Neil
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Cleaning the uncleanable:
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:23:39 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

You might want to try the old Victorian trick for washing
leather gloves, which I have used with some success.  Milk.  

Get a basin.  Pour a pint of milk in it.  Get some ivory soap.
Put the gloves on your hands and wash them in the milk, like
you are washing your hands, using small amounts of soap.
Swish them around in the milk.  Dump that milk, and rinse with
fresh milk.  Hang to dry.  It sounds weird, but it takes out
most of the gunk, and doesn't even smell too much like sour
milk, afterward.  ;-)  Of course, if the stains are *too* bad,
there are things this may not cure...
--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"The field of pseudo-science hasn't progressed much in ten
years, except to gain access to the net." --from ca.earthquakes
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: edwin@dutlru.tudelft.nl (Edwin Wisse)
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Organization: Delft Univ. of Technology, Fac. of Aerospace Engineering
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:58:24 GMT

ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley) writes:
>
>I am very disappointed by what I've seen in this newsgroup so far.  I
>was looking forward to discussions on competitive fencing, but a
>mental guesstimate says the discussions are 50/50 fencing vs.
>broadsword fighting.

>I missed the first few days of the newsgroup.

As far as I remember the charter covered dicussions about just about
any weapon excluding firmearms so the swordfighters really have a right
to discuss broadsword-bashing here.

>How 'bout (pun intended) a straw poll:  
>    a) How many competitive fencers don't want to see SCA related
>       discussions, 

I couldn't care less about broadswords so my killfile is growing.
I thought the sidesteps to kendo were more interesting since that's
a more "related" sport. I would like to see the sport element central
in this group but who am I to tell the swordsmen to go away, instead
I'll just kill their articles.

>    b) How many SCA'ists don't want to see competitive fencing related
>       discussion, 
>
>    c) how many want both to continue in the same group.

Just use your killfile and we can all stay here.

>    d) how many don't give a flip...
>
>... or has all this already been hashed out before I got here?  As for
>my opinion, I would prefer to see two separate groups, such as
>r.s.f.competitive and r.s.f.sca, or some other similar naming scheme.

There already *is* an sca group! (So why don't the swordfighters go there?)

>Less I be misunderstood, I don't want to banish either group.  I'm
>just curious if everyone out there likes the mix.

I not so negative about this group though. I've read some interesting
discussions here and there are still enough fencers around here to keep
it going. I still think it's great this group was created.
-- 
Edwin Wisse                    |                 "Compassion? Get rid of it!"
edwin@dutlru.tudelft.nl        |                          from "By the Sword"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: zklf0b@gs144.hou.amoco.com (Fergason)
Subject: Re: Computer games?
Organization: Amoco Production
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:34:41 GMT

In article <37791@cbmvax.commodore.com> brichard@cbmvax.commodore.com (B. Richard) writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.222815.27934@rock.concert.net> penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS) writes:
>>
>>Are there any video/computer fencing games?
>
>  Try "Summer Games" on the Amiga.  It dates back a few years and so 
>may require an OLD version of the OS.  I think it was by Epyx.

Quick correction, as I stated earlier in another post, it was 
Summer Games II, not the original Summer Games.  It was Epyx.

Kelly
From: karim@ecst.csuchico.edu (KARIM SANJABI)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: crosstraining and weight training
Date: 17 Dec 92 19:19:11 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu


Weight training, I'm sure, is a great way to keep up those leg 
muscles and stay fit.  I tend to find "pumping Iron" a bit boring.
If you want to keep your legs in shape and even work on 
balance and agility, try snowboarding.  If you snowboard correctly,
the stance is almost exactly the same as in fencing.

KARIM
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Left vs Right Handness
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:49:27 GMT

Randy Bruno quoted me, then wrote:
  >  III.A.3 [ . . . ] Orthopedic and pistol grips are not allowed for
  >  reasons of safety and non-period style.

  The non-period part is clear, but I'm curious to know how in the case of
  this rule pistol grips were determined to be unsafe. (I can imagine a
  few possibilities, but I was wondering what the particular background is
  to this specific rule.)

I wrote him a lovely long piece of conjecture, but the truth is, I don't
know.  I have bucked this up the line to a few SCA fencers on email, who
may have a better answer.  If I get an answer, I'll give it here.

My guess was, essentially, that we use a very soft touch for our attacks,
generally.  But we fence in the round, and sometimes with multiple
opponents.  If a thrust turns out to be too hard, we can loosen our grips,
and soften the contact.  With a pistol grip, the upright on the grip can
catch right in the fork of the thumb and fingers, and no softening of
the contact is detected.  I'll keep you informed.

	schuldy (Tibor in the SCA)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: mece25r@rosie.uh.edu (Palit, Suman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 11:58 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
Keywords: KEYWORDS
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <BzGtM7.5xs@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, ga@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Greg Anderson) writes...
>suggestion namely the adoption of Keywords as follows:
> 
>	COMP		competition
>	STYLE		style and technique
	
	{stuff deleted}

>	SCA		discussions of SCA fencing
> 
>So, what's the general concensus?


I agree, this would help us structure the group better. However, you realise
that only the regular posters are likely to use this convention. Most of
the new or irregular netters might not bother... but wotthehell, wotthehell,
something is better than nothing. It even might improve the signal/noise
ratio in this group, which I might add, is a lot higher than most rec.
groups I've read in the past (we fencers are serious people...........NAAT!!!)



Suman Palit

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: fxlof@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (Liam O Forbes)
Subject: Re: Maraging blades
Reply-To: fxlof@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:11:49 GMT

	Okay, I think most people are in agreeance that there is a higher  
incidence of breaking blades than there used to be.  
	So what are the sources.  Are people fencing more aggresively than  
they used to?  I don't think that can hold up.  Are the companies  
producing cheaper blades.  It seems so.  This being the easier explanation  
to believe (and of course more correct one in that case ;-) ), what can be  
done about it?  Who do we talk to?  Who do we write to?  I can't just  
write to my supplier, they get them from other companies.  Does anybody  
know some names and addresses of persons in charge of quality or  
production at the various places that actually produce the weapons I am  
fencing with.
	(I am a little up in arms about this right now.  I just had  
another blade break on me two days ago.  I think I had it in my ownership  
for about 3 months.  That's a little rididulous.)  -Liam
From: schin@acs.bu.edu (neil schier)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Bay Area California
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:03:57 GMT
Distribution: us
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA


Hello


I am trying to get ahold of someone who fences (or at least used to ) in
the Bay Area. Who should I contact?

Regards
Neil Schier
From: ellert@ds2.uh.cwru.edu (Ed Ellert)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Maraging blades
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:00:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: ds2.uh.cwru.edu

fxlof@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (Liam O Forbes) writes:

>	Okay, I think most people are in agreeance that there is a higher  
>incidence of breaking blades than there used to be.  
>	So what are the sources.  Are people fencing more aggresively than  
>they used to?  I don't think that can hold up.  Are the companies  
>producing cheaper blades.  It seems so.  This being the easier explanation  
>to believe (and of course more correct one in that case ;-) ), what can be  
>done about it?  Who do we talk to?  Who do we write to?  I can't just  
>write to my supplier, they get them from other companies.  Does anybody  
>know some names and addresses of persons in charge of quality or  
>production at the various places that actually produce the weapons I am  
>fencing with.

A bit tongue-in-cheek here: every time you break a blade, hurt the
person you are fencing... Of course, your hurting them has to be an
accident so that if they sue, they sue the blade manufacturer and not
you.  Black humor aside -- threat of litigation is a great motivator and
broken blades are more dangerous than unbroken ones.

Ed Ellert
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting
Date: 17 Dec 92 00:15:55 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

He put me in
>some ratty, duct-taped armor, gave me a shield, and a rattan club he
>referred to as a "sword", told me how to hold it, and proceeded to 
>knock me silly with his club.  Nice.  
>
>I was at that time teaching beginner fencers, and we were very careful 
>to teach them something of form and defense, drill, drill, drill,
>then put them on the strip, and go REAL EASY with them.  Not beat them
>up.
The were without skill.  As another poster put it, they
>shuffled around, feignted high, hit low, or vice versa, had no
>footwork, no balance, no grace.  And these guys were respected for
>their abilities!

A lot of this depends on where you learn, and whom you learn
from.  Duke Paul of Bellatrix was one of my teachers, and he
was a great believer in technique and drill, drill, drill.
But then, he had three martial arts black belts before he ever
turned his attention to SCA fighting.  The way it is supposed
to go is that you go easy on the beginner, but you give them
one *really hard* helm blow right at the first.  This is
supposed to be to see if they can "take it" or if they will be
driven away by having their helm ringing around their ears.  I
also learned war tactics, which are very different, and was
part of the Shield Wall.  You carry a 24"x60" shield (yes,
that's what I said!) and short sword, a rattan weapon designed
ONLY for thrusting.  The drill is to advance foreward and back
with shields, rest shield, open shield (like a door), thrust
with short-sword, close shield, retreat, rest shield, pikeman
thrusts over your head and the shield, advance shield...  You
get the idea.  Imagine doing this for three hours a night,
once a week, for a LONG time...  THAT is a drill.  In Paul's
fighter class, you do lots of "figure H" work, which is
basically a sword-moves kata.  High, high, low, middle, low,
high...

Unfortunately, a lot of groups do present about the same skill
level as you depicted.  As an old friend of mine (now a Duke)
once observed "Once someone who works out and *knows what he's
doing* comes into the group, he cleans up and wins tourneys."


--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"The field of pseudo-science hasn't progressed much in ten
years, except to gain access to the net." --from ca.earthquakes
Organization: Sophomore, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:41:52 -0500 
From: Randy M Bruno <rb6b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: cross training for fencing
	<13929@ecs.soton.ac.uk>

>>I have been experimenting with different types of cross training for fencing
>>for several years now (as my busy graduate school lack of life allows).
>>
>>I'm curious how other people cross train.  I guess the goal here is how to
>>train hard and still have enough time for other things (like work and
classes)
> 
>Juggling. I took up juggling a year ago, and I swear by it - its relaxing,
>superb for the reflexes, dexterity, muscle tone, etc etc etc.
>its wonderful for warming up as well.
>Since I learned to juggle five balls, my fencing has improved no end.

I showed a friend of mine who is a serious juggler some basics of
fencing. He claims his juggling has improved because of it.
From: garry@alice.att.com (garry hodgson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: historical perspective
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:59:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24422
Reply-To: garry@alice.UUCP ()
Distribution: rec
Organization: AT&T, Bell Labs

fxlof@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu writes:

  How many of you feel there is or should be a connection between  
  what is now fencing and it's overall goal's (whatever you view those as)  
  and the historical use of the blade as a weapon?  It seems many  
  'discussions' (and flames) come from comparisons of now and yesteryears.   
  Why?  
  Should we who use modern techniques (or techniques culled from  
  past fencers/shools) worry whether or not those techniques would actually  
  work for us in an actual duel?

  Or should we be concentrating on the competitive aspect of modern fencing  
  wherein the best is the guy who can win the most and biggest tournaments  
  as opposed to the guy who may be able to kill the first guy but not beat  
  him in a tournament style given actual duelling (or even battling)  
  weapons?

Interesting question.  Since I know little or nothing about fencing, 
I don't have an answer, but thought I'd note that a similar dichotomy
is at the root of many disagreements in rec.martial-arts.

There are those who are primarily interested in the practical aspects
of street self-defense, who disdain tournaments and any techniques 
which aren't maximally simple and economic.  Others are more into the
"arts" part of martial arts.  They may be more interested in development
of character, physical, or spiritual attributes.  Others enjoy
the sporting aspects of martial arts competition.  Still others
are in it for an ego trip, or a way to impress women, or make big bucks,
or whatever...

The majority incorporate several of these interests to some degree.
I would expect that would hold true here, as well.  I do get the impression,
however, that fencing seems more oriented towards sport than real life
use, so perhaps the "useful in dueling" criteria is less important 
in fencing than in other martial arts.


-- 
Garry Hodgson			A slow winter day
AT&T Bell Labs			A night like forever
garry@alice.att.com		Sink like a stone
att!alice!garry			Float like a feather
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting (Longish?)
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 07:52:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.062209.27721@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> scasterg@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stuart M Castergine) writes:
>
>I can see how it would be useful in a war when there is too much chaos
>to be able to concentrate on parrying anything that comes at you, but
>in single combat, I think a shield is a loser for a lefty.

 I'll second this. I'm a lefty and people tried to get me to take a shield
before. It just hung there and didn't do much on my right side.

Wassail,
Al