HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Subject: Re: On Hiding one's Beliefs
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
	<gdtS9qS00WBKI3YtJ1@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:58:12 GMT


This thread is getting rediculous.  R' Alter made a post in transliterated
Ashkenazi Hebrew responding to a question that someone asked.  Since then:

Michael Shimshoni said:
    
    -  I understand R.  Alter's motives pretty well, or so it seems to me.  He
    -  was encoding something he believes to be the truth and part of his
    -  religion as he sees it, but for some reason he does not wish some
    -  "outsiders" to know it.  I consider a person who is not ready to openly
    -  admit his beliefs a coward.
 ...
    -  Perhaps I am in a "poor light" but at least I am not trying to keep my
    -  views in the dark as Avrohom did and Balbin defends.
    
and now Sandy Bodzin <sb5i+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

    Secondly, and more importantly, the whole point of encoding the message is
    wrong.  Richard Thorne defends the pigeon practice of Tzahevet through an
    anology to acupuncture.  Well, if the practice is defendable, then defend
    it.  If it's not then drop it.

This is getting silly.  R' Alter made a simple decision, that he wanted to
communicate information to a group of people without starting a long and
pointless discussion.  As he has said, the pigeon thing is given in Taamei
haMinhagim as a refuah and _not_ as a segula, so there's no vested religious
interest in the practice.  It's simply something that works.  Additionally, he
has personal experience with it working (which he has discussed by e-mail), so
he's certainly not in doubt about its accuracy or unable to make a convincing
argument for its validity.

The point, however, is that not everything in the world is worth talking about
on SCJ.  Do we really need yet another long discussion about "were the sages
smart" or "in Jewish tradition bunk" or "should we worship scientists instead
of G-d" ??  If I guess correctly, R' Alter's intentions behind his post were
to avoid stupid discussions (which unfortunately he failed to do).  _Not_
everything is worth discussing on SCJ, and he probably made a decision that he
thought this wasn't worth posting generally when it seems likely that it would
result in reiteration of everyone's opinions of the sages and of Jewish
tradition.  He simply wanted to communicate it to those who would be
interested.

Was R' Alter wrong?  Maybe, and maybe not.  Maybe his personal experiences
with the refuah would be interesting to everyone.  Maybe avoiding pointless
discussions on SCJ is a lost cause.  _Certainly_, however, we all agree that
we all have the right to make judgements about what to post and how to post
it, and jumping to all sorts of conclusions about R' Alter because of this
decision is rediculous.

Dov (Bruce) Krulwich
krulwich@ils.nwu.edu

 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: carroll@mercury.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions
Keywords: kosher, passover
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:20:32 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.193402.27353@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> alz@nestor.uucp (80122-zoble) writes:
>A discussion during lunch with a Catholic co-worker brought up some questions
>about Judaism that I wasn't prepared to answer. Maybe some net people can
>help me out. I was brought up very liberal and reform, so I'm looking for
>a similar viewpoint, not a Conservative or Orthodox one, which I could agree
>with based upon my upbringing and beliefs.

[first question deleted, because I don't know the answer.]

>My second question is more subjective, but may have some authoritative
>answer - I don't know. We discussed the trilogy, and how essential a belief
>in God is to a Catholic. Is it also necessary for all Jews to believe in
>God, or is there room for doubt based upon personal belief or
>interpretation?

I'll take a stab at an answer. I'm basically talking from the position
of the Reconstructionist movement, but I think that both the Reform
and Conservatives would agree with this answer.

My sister went through an agnostic phase, and she talked to my Rabbi
about it. His answer to her was: "A person who has never doubted is a
person who has never thought."

Basically, to be a good Jew, you do need to believe in God in some
way. You don't have to think that God is an old man with a white beard
on a throne in Heaven, but you do have to believe in God as the
conscious power that created the Universe.

I'd also recommend asking the same question in the Liberal Jewish
Mailing list. A lot of liberal folks who would be glad to answer you
have given up on s.c.j, but you can still find them on ljml. The
address to get onto the mailing list is: faigin@aero.org.

	<MC>
--
From: jhelbaum@stroke.Princeton.EDU (Jason Elbaum)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Yiddish Chad Gadya
Date: 14 Apr 92 02:29:08 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU

My family (through my father's side) has a custom to sing a Yiddish
version of the Chad Gadya at the seder.  It's very similar to the
original Aramaic, but with a few twists in the plot.

Is anyone else familiar with a similar minhag?

-- 
Jason Elbaum                               jhelbaum@phoenix.princeton.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 16:17:55 GMT

In article <9204151341.AA10341@robocop.NYU.EDU>, baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker) writes:
|> know.  Why it doesn't include potatoes, which can be processed and used 
|> much like flour for baking (most Passover cakes use potato starch), I don't
|> know.  My guess is that potatoes can't be piled like grain, they are piled
|> like rocks.8)  

Potatoes are from the New World and weren't known to Chazal at the time the
prohibition of Kitniyos was enacted.  And thank G-d for that!  If potatoes
were made kitniyos, we *really* couldn't eat anything on Pesach! :-)
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "I can see by your coat, my friend,
Bellcore            |  you're from the other side
Piscataway, N.J.    |  just one thing I've got to know; can you tell me please
(908) 699-8800      |     who won?"               - CSNY, "Wooden Ships"
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rabbenu Gershom
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:06:26 GMT
Organization: AT&T Migration Systems

In article <1992Apr14.231533.24009@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (a.j.s. nusbacher) writes:
>The Edicts of Rabbenu Gershom were issued with a duration of 1000 years.  It
>seems to me that 1000 years are about up.  Considering that the edicts were
>issued with changing customs in mind, is there any serious opinion to the effect
>that they ought to be revised?
>
>_____________________________________________________________________________
>        Aryk Nusbacher                .. ..       Hart House, 1916

Since the edicts of Rabbeinu Gershom have been universally
accepted, I think that they have entered another status.  Also I
don't think anyone considers himself (or is considered) on a level
to revise what Rabbeinu Gershom did.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Valid Interpretation Flamefest (sigh!)
Date: 6 Apr 92 03:27:05 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1679@vaccine.UUCP> warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il writes:
>In <1992Mar30.003653.21056@cs.cornell.edu> novick@cs.cornell.edu (Mark B. Novick) writes:
>
>>I still fail to see what is so bad about patrilineal descent from a
>>halachic point of view.  Sure it's against halacha, but so is the fact
>>that other aspects of a Reform conversion don't meet the requirements
>>of halacha.  Why do people get so angry about patrilineal descent, and
>>are comparatively unfazed about the standards of Reform conversions?
>
>I'm not angry, I just saddened...
>
>I would suppose that there are many more children of intermarriages in
>which the father is Jewish than Reform converts, so patrilineal
>descent produces more people who are Jews according to R.

I'm Reform, but I think that the entire patrilineal descent issue is
fairly stupid. If it only applies to children being raised as Jews,
then the child's parents must want the child to be Jewish; and if 
they do, what would be wrong with going through a conversion, the
same as with an adopted non-Jewish child? I don't understand why
someone would care that their child be Jewish enough to complain
about patrilineal descent, but not care enough to do what's neces-
sary to bring their child into the tribe in a more conventional
fashion.

> |warren@         

	-Nora


-- 
Oseh shalom b'imromav, hu ya'aseh shalom aleinu v'al kol yisrael.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: Ralphie
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:09:32 GMT

>In article <1992Apr12.194048.4824@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>
>
>>So, what I was trying to point out is that one should not rely on an 
>>author "X" who wrote this, and There is a picture of Hitler and the Mufti.
>
>That author was me.  And I use my real name, and I don't post stuff
>from hate groups, and many people considered me to be reliable.  I also
>answer questions that are posed in e-mail or posted, and I apologize or
>retract statements that are incorrect or offensive.  I offered
>to fax that picture to anyone who wanted, and also the transcript of the
>meeting.  And Brendan and others said they had seen the picture and read
>the transcript.  Do not compare me or Brendan to Ralph.  We both know that 
>Ralph represents a white-supremicist hate group, and that he doesn't answer 
>questions or use his real name, and he has no credibility.  I find this
>comparison quite offensive.  I hope you have more respect for me than
>you do for Ralph; I'm pretty sure everyone on the net does.  
>I'm not considere to be either a liar, a propagandist, or someone motivated 
>by hatred.  

Hold your barkes Leon. I was generalizing and I am not comparing you to 
Ralphie. Please bear in mind that my native language is not English and
sometimes I find it hard to express what I want to say. 

Did you say that you are the author of the book written about the Mufti?
>
>
>>Keep in mind, that Hitler thought that people from the third world are
>>useless and they waste the earth resources by simply filling their 
>>stomach. So at that time, nobody was fooled by Hitler's motives and I
>>don't think any Middle Eastern would have supported him. 
>
>Yes, but there are texts of the communications between the Hitler
>and the Mufti, and there are statements of joint support and collaboration.
>Maybe in the long term, if the Nazis had not been stopped, the Nazis would 
>have enslaved and killed the Arabs as well, but that was not their short 
>term policy.  It simply is a fact that the Mufti was a Nazi collaborator.
>What is in dispute is how much he actually knew, who he met with, etc.
>
>

Just like I said before, I will argue this later when I do more research.
By the way, this is an article by a Moslem on SCJ about versus in the QURAN
that prohibits these acts. I am sure that you will run into this article. As
I said before,"IF THIS IS CORRECT, THEN HE IS NOT A MUFTI".

Nabil Idriss

I'm not an Engineer, but I play one at NCR.

>
>Leon Gross
>I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism & Halacha (was Re: Following Sedar tradition)
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 6 Apr 92 19:37:32 GMT


 engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu (Sean Philip Engelson) writes:
> And when we examine the b'rakhot [blessings] made
> on various foods, meat is at the bottom of the totem-pole
> (kiv'yakhol), with the least specific b'rakhah, hence it is one of the
> least important of foods.  We see the idea of b'rakhah specificity
> reflecting food importance most clearly with reference to wine and
> bread, which have the most specific b'rakhot; it also applies to
> others, see 6th Pereq Masekhta B'rakhot.

Hold it a minute.  It's not so clear that the bracha shehakol is a bracha
for the least important foods.  It is the only bracha that can be applied
to ALL other foods.  Even hamotzi is not as all-encompassing.

-Don Gertler
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 03:09:28 EDT
From: RABBI CHARLES ARIAN <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Cat food for Pesach...the list
Distribution: world
 <gdsbFoG00WBL8_X28T@andrew.cmu.edu>

In article <gdsbFoG00WBL8_X28T@andrew.cmu.edu>, Eugene Zilberstein
<ez05+@andrew.cmu.edu> says:
>
>
>I'm allergic to cats, BUT... if the point is to have a fully KosherKat,
>why the shrimp???
>
>... or is it just the word "fancy" (as in "Fancy Feast") that makes it
>OK for the Holidays?
>
It has nothing to do with having a KosherKat.

A Jew is permitted to own non-kosher meats and fish and to derive benefit
(a la feeding one's animal) from same. In other words, we are forbidden to
*eat* shrimp, but we are not forbidden to *own* shrimp or to feed it to our
cats.

During Passover, however, we are forbidden even to *own* chametz.
So we need to find cat food which is chametz-free.

KosherKat, no; Chametz-lessKat, yes.

Hope this clears things up.
From: leavitt@sounds.waisman.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: RE: Yiddish Had Gadya
Date: 16 Apr 92 16:29:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: sounds.16APR92.10293189
Organization: Waisman Center, University of Wisconsin-Madison

Does anyone have the words to this yiddish version of Had Gadyoh?
I would love to try it at my seder.

Thanks in advance,
Lewis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: explanation of the eg
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway
Distribution: soc
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:04:42 GMT

In <1992Apr9.1659.8671@execnet> ken.halfon@execnet.com (ken halfon) writes:

>    I was wondering if anyone had an explanation of the symbolism of the
>egg on the Seder plate?

The egg and the shankbone each symbolize one of the sacrifices that
were brought on Pesach, the shankbone symbolizes the Paschal sacrifice
and the egg the "Hagiga" or holiday sacrifice.  Every man had to bring
a Hagiga, it had to be brought sometime during Pesach but could be
brought on Erev Pesach and eaten at the Seder.

Some families also eat hard-boiled eggs dipped in salt-water (the one
on the Seder plate is roasted, but it's usually hard-boiled first, I
think a raw egg would explode if roasted).  This probably symbolizes
the destruction of the Temple, which happened on Tisha B'Av, which
always falls on the same day of the week as the first day of Pesach.

Lots of people get all the way up to the meal and get confused because
the hard-boiled egg is not mentioned in the Haggadah.  "when do we eat
the egg" is the fifth question at many Seders.  The answer (at least
everywhere that I have been where eggs were eaten), is "after the
sandwich".
-- 
/|/-\/-\          The entire kitchen is		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/        still full of strange hamantaschen
 |warren@         And the custodian
/ nysernet.org    is starting to get worried.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: engelson-sean@CS.YALE.EDU (Sean Philip Engelson)
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism & Halacha (was Re: Following Sedar tradition)
Organization: Yale AI Mobile Robotics Project
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:54:02 GMT


In article <ku1rr3INNdue@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>, janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:
|> In article 23257@cs.yale.edu, I wrote:
|> >Some Rishonim, including the Tur, seem to feel, however, that
|> >there is an idea of meat-eating even today; the only explanation I can
|> >see is a "zekher l'miqdash" [remembrance of the Temple].  The Beit
|> >Yoseph comments on this Tur that this makes no sense to him at all
|> >(his words), and concludes that only wine is applicable today.  Since
|> >he doesn't discuss the issue in the Shulchan Aruch, and the Darkei
|> >Moshe doesn't disagree, this would appear to be psak.  It should also
|> >be noted in this regard that the halacha of `oneg Shabbat [Sabbath
|> >enjoyment] does not, in any way, require meat; it is a subjective
|> >measure of enjoyment, "eat what you like".
|> >
|> 
|> Could you expand a little more on why "zecher lamikdash" makes no sense 
|> as a reason to eat meat?  A friend of mine in LA was always very puzzled 
|> by people that ate chicken as "meat" on Shabbat since it wasn't zecher 
|> lakorban and he was sure that was the reason you were supposed to eat 
|> meat on Shabbat.

First, I am unaware of any authority who maintains that it is a requirement to
eat meat on Shabbat---the criteria for "oneg" (as opposed to "simcha") appears
to be simply "whatever you like".  Historically, meat was considered a special
delicacy of sorts, and hence was eaten on Shabbat.  But any other foods you may
enjoy fit the bill.  Second, in terms of "zecher lamiqdash" with reference to
simchat Yom Tov, it's R. Karo ZT"L who said he didn't understand it, not me. 
But my guess would be that it seems strange, from a halachic perspective, to
require meat on Yom Tov for that reason due to the fact that such a concept
(a) does not appear in the Talmud, and (b) is not mentioned as a minhag, which
could have originated later, but as the law, *based on a Talmudic source*
(which seems, in fact, to come to the conclusion that meat is *not* required
today).  Hence, the Tur seems puzzling.

I hope this clarifies things somewhat.

Chag kasher vesameach!
			-Shlomo-
-- 
Sean Philip (Shlomo) Engelson		May He who makes peace on high
Yale Department of Computer Science	Mercifully make peace for us
Box 2158 Yale Station			And for all of the House of Israel
New Haven, CT 06520				And let us say: Amen.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gadi@cs.uiuc.edu (Gadi Friedman)
Subject: Re: Purim and Peace Now
Reply-To: gadi@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 16:18:55 GMT

In soc.culture.jewish you write:

>Shalom;

>I want to thank Gadi for giving us an example of exactly what I wanted to show.
>Gadi I can understand your logic, and I say that by your logic, Mordachai was
>the villain of the Purim story, as were the Maccabis, Bar-Kochva, to name a 
>few. But you opted not to answer my questions .... so I don't really know.
>What do you say?

>Zvi from Tekoa

I don't have your questions.  Maybe they didn't arrive here, or maybe
they have already been deleted.   Comparing the settlers in Tekoa
to Mordachia or the Maccabis (in the Hanukah story) is dishonest.  The latter
two were attacked and forced to defend themselves, while the settlers are 
pushing others out of their land.  Besides, I was not arguing about
the moral correctness of the settlement movement, only of the harm they
are causing Israel.

Gadi
From: rda834x@nella6.cc.monash.edu.au (J. Zufi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Pesach Dvar Torah
Date: 13 Apr 92 02:13:49 GMT
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.


Wouldn't mind giving a nice drasha at my local shul this Erev Shabbat....
Can anyone help me out with perhaps some short pshatim from last year.
Thanks.
rda834x@nellads.cc.monash.edu.au
From: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Does the Bible have any contradictions
Date: 16 Apr 1992 16:09:24 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

Someone asked me if there are any contradictions in the Bible, and I
could not answer.  Can anyone point out some to me (if, in fact, they
do exist)?  I'm looking for two different types of contradictions, the
first being far more important:

1.  A self-contradiction:  some fact described in one place in the Bible
is described in unambiguously different, mutually exclusive terms in another 
place in the Bible.

2.  A contradiction with empirical fact/science:  some fact about the
natural world is described in the Bible which is unambiguously contrary to 
modern scientific knowledge.

Thanks in advance, though it would seem that not many of these exist 
seeing as the Bible has been around for centuries.  Please try and
email me any answers you may have (no matter how long or short) because
I will be posting this to a lot of newsgroups (too many to review for
replies).  Thanks again...

Email address: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu

AAA
From: allen@golem.ssc.gov (Mike Allen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: explanation of the eg
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:02:17 GMT
	<1992Apr16.130359.21139@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Reply-To: Michael_Allen@ssc.gov
Organization: SSC Laboratory, Dallas, TX

>>>>> On Thu, 16 Apr 1992 13:03:59 GMT, stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) said:

In article <1992Apr16.130359.21139@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

[...]
Stan> Try this one (based on a sermon and high school class material):  the
Stan> shankbone and egg represent the idea of two main courses at a formal
Stan> Roman meal, as does the 4 cups of wine.

Stan> This is consistent with reality since the model we follow, such as
Stan> reclining, is that of a royal Roman meal.

I didn't realize we Jews had such a big influence on the Romans.  To
think that the royalty of Rome actually modelled there most important
meals after our Seder traditions!  (So that's what model Seder means :-)

Have a kosher and happy Pesach,
-Michael
--
===============================================================================
	German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, on the inauguration of Germany's first
Holocaust memorial, saying Germans must never forget Nazi atrocities:
	``(We) owe it to our children and grandchildren. We must pass on to
them the realization that it is not at all self-evident that one should
be allowed to live in peace and freedom.''