From: Frater-Nigris@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: posture and meditation (esoteric) (very long)
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:03:56 GMT
Organization: ----


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


What follows is simply another point of view on the subject.  Toshi's
comments are perfect from their perspective.  My difference comes more
from my rebellion than it does from any insight I may have.


Toshi [a small part of Toshi's post are omitted to save space]:

I'll talk about the lotus position a bit.  This classic yoga position is
known as padmasana.


Response:

Yes, Padma (Lotus) sana (posture) is a very important posture.




Toshi:

In this position, the person sits with their left foot on top of their
right leg, and the right foot on top of the left leg.  The spine is
erect.  It's like sitting crosslegged, but the feet are on top of the legs
rather than below the legs.


Response:

Note the symbolism of this pose.  Left to right, right to left.  Soles
pointed up.  Spine erect.  This is a position of balance and power.
Difficult to topple, yet somewhat flexible (depending on your yoga training).
However, this position is also difficult to move FROM, unless assumed by
an Adept.  If you assume this position, plan on staying in one place
for a while.


Toshi:

The position of the hands is slightly variant, but let us assume that the
forefinger and the thumb are touching and the palms are up and the back of the
hands rest on the knees.


Response:

A nice variant.  Thus we have palms and soles upward.  This is the reverse
of the norm and reminds me of the symbolism of the tarot card I call 
'The Hanged One'.  The motive and manipulative aspects are put on temporary
hold.  We assume an expression of openness.  We are erect, alert.  Remember
these qualities when contemplating the deeper meaning of meditation.


Toshi:

What I am going to try to do is examine the why of things.  Why are there
all of these strange postures and hand gestures?  Why chant this instead
of that?  Some of these questions can be answered by understanding
the chakras and relationships among them.  


Response:

Unfortunately, but sometimes true, the whys are either unknown or they
are things we might rather not know.  'Because it has always been done
that way'... 'Because I said so'... 'Because I can't tell you in any
better way'.  Knowing why can have its benefits.  It can also lead you
to dead-ends or on a never-ending goose chases.



Toshi:

If you understand the why's of things, you can understand why something 
is done and how it will affect your being and best of all, how it 
may be improved or changed to better help yourself.  We are all 
experimenters.  Some may see this as reckless, but with care, it can 
be extremely useful.


Response:

Well said.  While experimenting is often looked down upon by traditional
teachers, I encourage it, especially if you've a mind that you are ultimately
responsible for your own well-being.  I don't know you.  If you say that *I*
told you to experiment and so you did, then you play the fool twice.  My
intent is not to make Masters out of toddlers.  I just get tired of all the
constant warnings and prophylactics.  Toshi seems to avoid both here quite
nicely.  What?  Is this 'be nice to Toshi month'?  Hehehe.



Toshi:

In some traditions, everything is set in stone.  This is because someone
found things that work and everyone who follows the tradition does the same
things.

We aren't the somebodies who founded the tradition.  If we understand the 
mechanics and theory behind the actions, we can improve the meditations
and work with those that may help us more by relating to our being more.

We do this already by "searching" for paths that fit our needs.  We can
improve our search with understanding.


Response:

Here is the basis for self-power.  WE do the searching.  WE make the
choice to practice in the way we see fit.  WE take the chance with our
nonexistent souls.  Understanding is one thing.  One of my teachers said
that 'understanding is the booby prize'.  I didn't like it when she
said it (and I think she was quoting somebody ELSE), but when I thought
about it, I tended to agree.

We go about our lives in a flurry.  We eat, drink, piss and read all
without really understanding any of it, or at least a very small
part.  EXPERIENCE is the goal here, not some mental satisfaction that
we 'comprehend' the WAY that it works.  If we do, great!  Buzzers, 
noisemakers, bells!  But if that is ALL I have, then I must set about
using this understanding to seize hold of EXPERIENCE.  Understanding is
an abstraction.  Experience is the goal, as far as I'm concerned.

We may or may not come to understand these 'other systems'.  Perhaps such
an understanding would bring down the risk factor if we experimented with 
them (this, I feel, is the heart of Toshi's oncoming warning).  Yet it IS 
our risk to take, and sometimes INTUITION is a good measure where
understanding will lead us astray.  I'm a big one for intuition, though,
so I guess this isn't surprising coming from me.


Toshi:

Please be careful though.  If you do things on your own without someone
more experienced to help you, you may get sidetracked and lost and
possibly even hurt yourself.  If you don't understand why I am saying
this, then write to me and I'll make a post about this.


Response:

AND, if you want to talk to someone who is used to taking risks, who
understands the 'let's fly by the seat of our pants method' of self-
transformation, you can email me.  Perhaps any of my posts will in some way
be connected with Toshi's, however.  We seem to like each other.

-----------

Toshi:

Commentary on the Lotus position

This position is ideal for circulation of energy within the system.  What is
"energy"?  It's a feeling that I experience in my body.  It can be a warm
feeling, it can be a tingling, it can be an ecstatic feeling.  If you don't
believe it but you want to read on, imagine that it is something that you
feel that can be circulated through the body.


Response:

Herein is my central difference with Toshi (if there is really one):

This position IS an ideal, meant to be understood symbolically, not necessarily
literally.  Once one has enough practice at the posture, then one can attempt
to integrate the wisdom of it (and meditation) into one's life.  Some may
find it important to keep up the direct symbol (zazen).  Some may find that
the symbol becomes useless or extraneous at some point.


Toshi:

Paths of circulation:

1. Thumb and forefinger touching.  The thumb has a relationship to the
   gonad chakra and the forefinger has a relationship to the throat
   chakra.  When they touch, energy can circulate between the gonads
   and throat.


Response:

This mudra makes a circle.  Probably unintentionally it makes the sign
for 'ok'.   It is an ancient and deeply meaningful hand-posture.  One
sees it in artforms from European Christian to Tibetan Buddhist.  Held
up, palm outward, it is often associated with peace and wisdom.  Seated
on the knees it not only serves a pragmatic role by allowing us to be
aware when we are about to sleep during meditation, but it also symbolizes
the fact that we are, in some measure, self-complete; that we can offer
ourselves, our openness to All and we shall reserve what we need to
continue our efforts.  It is JUST short of total abandonment.


Toshi:

2. Feet resting on legs.  There are chakras on the bottom of the feet.  
   When you are in the lotus position, the feet face upward, throwing
   energy at your upper body.


Response:

As mentioned before, the motive elements of the body are at rest.  This
is symbolic of a calm attentiveness to the present.  When our minds are
not racing ahead of every word, every sensation, we have a deeper
appreciation of direct experience.

The legs, I think, are what gives the 'Lotus position' its name.  In
so many artworks the Buddha sits atop a lotus flower.  They ARE,
symbolically, the generation of perfect Love and Wisdom.  The lotus
grows up from the muck of a pond.  In our way, we may grow down into
the muck from which the Lotus was born, into the warm perfection and
dark security of our Original Face.  We sit, and as we are silent, we
begin to sense a VERY DEEP connection with that below.  To tap into
this is to seize who we really are.


Toshi:

3. Hands facing upward, resting on knees.  There are chakras in the palm
   of your hand, pointing to the face, and you might experience tingling 
   in the face.


Response:

Again, the hands are an offering as portrayed here.  They are a statement
about one's openness.  Our hands are the actors, the 'do'ers.  To have
them at rest is symbolic of our directed attention.  To have them face
upward and in such a mudra is to put their energies toward peace, 
calm surity, and a willingness to forestall the ravages of business.


Toshi:

4. Erect position pushes torso slightly forward.  This generates movement
   of energy from the root upward, which rolls over the head and back down
   the front of the body.  In a cross-legged posture, your feet are below
   your legs, moving your body slightly backwards.  This causes circulation
   to be decreased a bit.


Response:

The position of the body is perhaps the most ambiguous, symbolically.
It is at right angles with the legs, and parallel to head and upper arms.
The legs are the body's prime motive operants.  To both have them
inwardly fused (twisted) and then have them at right angles to the torso
speaks to me of bundling up the energy and sending it upward, or downward,
as the case may be.  Note that there are three points which touch the 
ground (anus and two knees, unless you are good enough to get your entire
thighs touching) and two which point upward (the souls).

The spine is considered the stable part of the body.  It is our rough
center and gives us the ability to move in the ways that we do - to
walk upright, to turn and reach.  To have this erect, in line, is symbolic
of having one's energies (mind/body, whatever) in line with one's center.
To have no wasted energy; to be directed and centered, Mind and Heart.


------

Toshi:

...I would suggest starting meditation in a comfortable position,
then later, try to use different postures and see if there are any effects.


Response:

And I, correspondingly, would suggest that you start out in as traditional
a position as possible.  For two reasons.  If you become familiar with the
tough one, then you can work up to it, even if you can't achieve it
immediately.  Also, you will get the bodily sensation of the wisdom
which is being taught on a somatic level.  Our bodies are fascinating
sources of learning, both on their own and for our minds.  There is, in
reality, no difference between them.  If our bodies are taught one thing,
we may not get it, but the body remembers.  Someday when we are wandering
off down the road to another kind of practice, we will flash on the
perfection of sitting (zazen) as an experience.  Perhaps Toshi's description
of 'energies' will have some meaning for us, perhaps not.  Yet the
singularity and simplicity of it will remain with us for a lifetime.  What
more potent a symbol can we give to our waking minds than the posture of
the Masters?


Toshi:

In essence, if a posture of meditation is causing a discomfort, detracting
from your meditation, change it.  The most important thing when you
start may be the comfort in meditation.  Conversely, the uneasiness
of the position may be important for you if you tend to fall asleep
when you get comfortable.


Response:

This is exactly it.  What works best for each of us is usually the best
path to follow.  I tend to start out in asceticism and work my way into
euphoricism.  Many others do it the other way around.



Toshi:

For each of us, different things work better.  Don't follow some
cookbook to enlightenment.


Response:

Well, I couldn't leave without disagreeing with Toshi just a LITTLE.  If you
WANT to follow a cookbook to enlightenment, I say GO TO IT!  It just might
work!


Invoke me under my stars!   Love is the law, love under will.


Yours for the duration,

Frater Nigris, O'
Tagi NagaShiva
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern