From: strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl)
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 13:17:44 GMT

In <CKD.92Oct10234118@loiosh.eff.org> ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:

>Bill> == bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
>WS>   == Wolfgang Strobl <strobl@gmd.de> 

> WS> I too rememember the standard shortcuts like Ins, Del, PgUp and so
> WS> on, mostly because they are separate keys on the standard PC
> WS> keyboard (the one just recently adapted on the Macintosh, if I'm
> WS> not mistaken).

>Why do PC users always treat 1987 as "recent"?  Not in this industry it
>isn't.  If you want to compare modern ix86 machines to the Mac Plus, go
>ahead, I'll compare the PC/XT to my IIci.  It's only fair.

Sure it's fair. But each time somebody mentiones that Microsoft 
borrowd the Ctrl+C .. shortcuts from the Mac, I feel an urge to
mentions where the Macintosh keyboard layout came into existence.

Sorry.

> Bill> Which is exactly the point. If you have to think about the
> Bill> shortcuts, then you might as well use the mouse -- its faster. If
> Bill> you can't remember them instantly, game over.

> WS> Not so. My fingers reside on the keyboard.

>Until you reach over to the keypad or cursor-block to find Ins, Del,
>PgUp and the like so you can use the "working" version of whatever
>shortcut you just failed to be able to use in a dialog box.  *My* pinky,
>not being four inches longer than my other fingers, can't touch-type
>that far away from the home row.  And I have to look to see where the
>keys are, unlike with a mouse, which I can find with peripheral vision
>and feel.

I can find the insert and delete keys without looking at the keyboard,
while I can't find the paste menu without looking away from what I
was looking, before.

> WS> Why didn't you use the Ins key? I use it all the time, it is easily
> WS> reachable, and it works everywhere.

>Easily reachable, huh?  Not on any "standard" 101-key layout I've ever
>seen or used.  It's barely possible to stretch my pinky to it while
>keeping my index finger on the J key, and I certainly can't do it
>without looking.  On the other hand, Cmd-V is just "hit Cmd with either
>thumb, left index finger moves to V".

Just like the Alt+ key navigation as used by Windows.

Anyway. I don't have to look at the keyboard to find the insert
and the delete key. Usually I put my hand on the cursor block
(just move it right a bit) to move the cursor, use shift+ curor
keys with my middle finger to mark something and use my index
finger to press the delete key. After that, I move my right
hand back to the standard position with the index finger
on the "J". Just an example.

> WS> Hm. To me, the Ctrl+C shortcut is very nonintuitive.

>It's both intuitive ("[C]opy") and in a nice block on my keyboard with
>Undo, Cut, and Paste (ZXCV).  To "X" something is a reasonably mnemonic
>term for cutting it, and "V" looks like an insert-here mark to me.  Of
>course it's not Ctrl-C here, but Cmd-C; Ctrl-C is left free for my term
>program.

That should be "[K]opieren" for me. These shortcuts have the disadvantage
that they don't translate well. The Alt+letter menu navigation doesn't
share that disadvantage, because the menues (including the 
underlined letters) get translated. THe same applies to the special
keys on the keyboard: my keyboard has "Einfg" and "Entf" instead
of "Ins" and "Del" on the two keys we are talking about.

> WS> But you're right, shortcuts (those equivalent to Command-O, not the
> WS> keyboard/menu interface) could be more standard between Windows
> WS> applications. Many don't have any shortcuts, and if they have, they
> WS> aren't always identical.  Microsoft seems to have standardized on
> WS> Ctrl+F12 for File Open (the use it in Word and Excel), but it isn't
> WS> standardized enough to be usefull. I don't use them often. On the
> WS> other hand, people are different - I know others who like them:
> WS> Ctrl+F12, Ins, Shift+F3, Enter ..., so I'm not so fast to condem
> WS> that feature.

>Ctrl-F12?  Ooh, that's SO easy to touch-type!  Especially on a laptop
>without function keys!  And so mnemonic!  I always associate the number
>12 with "open"!  Why, that's such a shortcut it might save me, um, oh,
>no time over using the mouse!  Even if I had to go find one in another
>room...and that's assuming the program I'm using doesn't move File Open
>to Alt-Shift-F4.

Who said that it is easy to touch-type. I don't know the hidden reason
why Microsoft selected that shortcut. But I don't care much, because
I wouldn't use it often,  even if it where Ctrl+O, because
I don't associate O with [Umlaut O]ffnen, either.

Wolfgang Strobl
#include <std.disclaimer.hpp>