HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:25:01 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug13155505@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.011213.24260@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>   Umm, most of the countries of the world recently united in a military
>>   effort against Iraq that did most of these same things.  In your view,
>>   is the whole world terrorist?  (I am starting to think that in your
>>   view it probably is.)
>
>What are you talking about?  The Desert Storm coalition forces tried
>very hard not to harm Arab passersby, 

Actually, pre-Israel Zionist groups tried very hard not to harm Arab
passesrsby.  Ironically, today it is precisely Arab passersby in
Israel who are stabbing tourists in the back and shooting policemen in
the chest.  Nice way to pay us back.

>and did not attack British
>police, British civilian leaders, or a UN peace representative.  

The Desert Storm forces WERE U.N. representatives, and some were
British, as well.  Your analogy is stoooopid.  Israel is no more
guilty of terrorism than the Desert Storm coalition forces, i.e. the
representatives of almost the entire world.  Give it up, Eggert.

>You are misrepresenting my postings.  Israel is not a terrorist state.
>Israel and Zionsists have, however, pursued terrorism.  I also object
>to your repeated ad hominem attacks.  They only show a bankruptcy of
>ideas on your part.

No, they show that in your case, the postings and the poster are
related.  You don't merely make an occassionally silly posting or
stupid remark, you consistently do so.  I wonder why...

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:27:16 GMT

In article <4925@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
writes:

|>| Governments and individuals commit crimes, not whole peoples. This talk of
|>the
|>| "wrongs committed by the British" is simple racism.
|>| 
|>| 
|>| --
|>| 
|>| Phill Hallam-Baker
|>| 
|>
|>    You want to condemn LEHI, Zionists, Israel,

Nope just LEHI and Shamir. I think that offering to collaborate with the NAZI's
is enough for that.


|>  For some on TPM it is
|>  standard operating practice to criticize Israel for the actions of its
|>  government.  When someone says "Israel sanctions torture"  they know full
|>  well that the average Israeli, like the average US or Brit citizen is a
|>  humane person who opposes torture.

I happen to be quite particular about maintaining the distinction.


|>  The government in Israel is a reflection
|>  of the will of the people there so it would follow that either both the
|>  government and the people (the majority) support a policy or oppose a
|>policy.

Or think that other issues are more important. Or just don't know what is going
on. 

|>  Supporters of Israel do so because they believe that Israel and Israelis
|>  have the right to be judged by the same standards as other democracies. 

Yeah, seen the stuff I put out about right wing governments in the rest of the
world? I don't happen to have a high regard for Bush either. Major hasn't a clue
what he's up to. I'm also quite happy to condem left winger's to, Mitterand is a
terrorist (rainbow warrior).

I don't like any authoratarian governments. I don't like authoritarian
ideaology. I'm a Libertarian Socialist. 


|>  Admittedly Israel does some things wrong, but I think that the US would
|>  act similarly (or even worse) if in the same situation.

The US Government is not renowned for enlightenment in it's foreign policy.
Proping up shabby dictators is rather more their line.

|>  If you are opposed
|>  to the "racist" blanket condemnation of a people you can start by trying to
|>  put yourself in the situation of Israelis before condemning the actions
|>  those who represent them. 

I have yet to meet an Israeli who had a high opinion of Shamir.

|>  It's time to join the human race.

Now who's being racist? Is this your standard throw away line or did you get it
from Hasan? Who is it meant to apply to, me or you?


Phill Hallam-Baker
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Loan Guarantees
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:15:21 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Aug13.210033.9948@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>Except that Rabin has made it clear that he is not freezing settlement
>activity, merely changing priorities--wisely, I might add.

You are right about changing the 'priorities', but initially he did say
that he was going to do so and that is why Bush agreed to extend Israel
the $10 billion - because it was supposed to assist Russian immigrants in
settling - not to be used for settlement building.  Furthermore, Bush
stated that settlement building (despite the fact that it went against the
U.N. Resolutions) is creating the rift in Middle East peace, Rabin was
smart enough to be flexible to Bush's conditions (but what is actually
behind closed doors?), Israel is granted the loans they have been desperately
trying to receive.  They just needed to kiss Bush's hand a little.  And what
Rabin decides *thereafter* is obviously a different story.

>>Wasn't it made even sweeter with Rabin's gesture of inviting
>>the PLO to the peace talks?
>
>And Rabin also made no such foolish gesture to the PLO terrorists.

I was watching CBS News at Night the other day and he said (from an
interview) that it was an "idea - not a decision".  It is hard to
decifer what he says all the time - it seems to change a lot.  And it
is frustrating because we never know what to expect - except those who
say that this is only a game and it is all planned.  I guess we are
waiting to see how high he can raise our blood temperatures.

>>Do posters here really believe that Bush is anti-semitic now
>>and are they understanding the reality of politics and its
>>cycle?
>
>It's unclear as to whether Bush is actually anti-semitic, or simply
>uncaring as well as unenamored of Yitchak Shamir's personality.  Neither
>alternative interpretation is to his credit.
 
What do you mean by this?  When Bush decided in the beginning of the
year (or was it towards the end of last year) to not grant the loan
guarantees, everyone said that he was anti-semitic.  I think we are
understanding now that Bush probably does not care about either group -
he is only utilizing situations to his political advantage.

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Reply-To: horen@rs.com
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:02:32 PDT


>                     Attention Israel Line Recipients
>  
>                         Monday  August 17, 1992
>  
>  
> Peres Approves Israeli Arab Initiative to Bring Yugoslavian Orphans
> to Israel
>  
> Today's AL HAMISHMAR reports that Foreign Minister Shimon Peres
> yesterday approved the Muslim Rescue Committee's mission to bring
> orphans from the embattled areas of Bosnia to Israel. In a letter
> sent to the Muslim Committee, Peres said that he welcomes the
> initiative of the members of the committee to save children from
> the war torn areas without regard to religion or nationality. 
 
I'm waiting to see which of the Arab media report approval by
the Foreign Ministers of the Arab League/GCC members to bring
Jewish orphans from war-torn Bosnia-Herzegovina to their countries.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.war
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Re: Nuclear War in the Middle East - Soviet Nuclear Weapons Stolen?
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:39:21 GMT

In article <r8#ncrn.noring@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:
>Hello,
>
[suggestion that ME countries are getting Soviet nuclear weapons 'n stuff]

    It certainly is a worry that other countries could simply buy thier way 
into the nuclear club. And since the former soviet states are poor, and as
far as I can tell, not very well controlled, the price could be quite low.
    It certainly seems more cost effective to purchase technology if you
can arrange it rather then spend years on research. Those countries that have
spend years on it can also easily buy certain small details that has them
stuck. Buying a small part of a nuc weapon is certainly much easier than
buying the whole thing.

> Supposedly, Israel has about 100 nuclear weapons
>in their arsenal.
>
   Many people will strongly agree with this, but I see no evidence that
Isreal has nuclear weapons. I asked about this some time ago, and there was
no real evidence offered. It would be hard to hide a nuclear test, and without
a test, no weapon could be considered operational.

   I believe that we are more likley to see a nuclear exchange between
arab countries in the next ten years. I predict that Tehran (how do you spell
it, I wonder) will  be the next city to get nuked. It will be launched by
Iraq.

DanZ


-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 23:15:49 GMT


In a previous article, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) says:

>Shamirs actions in offering to aid the NAZIs who were busy perfecting
>methods of murdering Jews is hardly consistent with the goal of "saving
>Jewish lives". It is however entirely consistent with the theory that
>Shamir was only interested in forming a dictatorial state with himself
>as leader. 

Let's get real here.  Shamir wasn't offering aid;  he was trying to deal
with them in order to save Jewish lives.  There's a significant difference,
which you are totally ignoring.

>You will have to demonstrate
>cases after May 1940 in which the British were preventing evacuation of
>refugees whose sole concern was fleeing from the NAZIs.

Ever hear of the Exodus?  Even after the war was over, Britain continued to
prevent Jews from entering their homeland.

>You will also
>have to show that Shamir's attempts to support the NAZIs would have
>assisted this.

You're the one who's made the accusations.  The burden of proof is on you,
especially since the sole aim of Shamir's actions was to save Jews.

>At best the least you must accept is that shamir was guilty of a
>monstrous misjudgement.

On what basis?  His attempt did not succeed, but neither did anyone else's.
 On that basis, you must condemn every world leader of that time of either
monstrous misjudgement or evil, since they all either failed to do anything
successful to save Jewish lives, or they deliberately made no attempt.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 11:30:52 GMT

In article <24859@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <4663@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:
>=>| The allies did many things during WWII which I beleive were unnecessary
>=>| and wrong. However the only scenario in which you can justify an alleged
>=>| Jewish nationalist offering to make a pact with the NAZIs is if the
>=>| British were worse.
>=>|
>=>|
>=>| Phill Hallam-Baker
>=>|
>=>
>=>    With the aid of hindsight it is clear that the Yishuv's decision to not
>=>    fight the British during WWII was a wise one, but that only makes
>=>    LEHI wrong not evil.
>
>Just remind us again where and when Krystallnacht took place. How perceptive
>do you have to be to figure out in 1941 that the  Nazis were Baddies? How
>much of a hypocrite do you have to be to defend LEHI?

C'mon Mr. Henderson, the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto didn't beleive the
stories from Treblinka, nobody in Palestine was aware to the atrocities
in the treu extent till 1945. sure there were News but most of them
were viwed as sensationalistic. I remember that a Jew woman told the
Tel-Aviv puvlic who queued in front of a cinema: "How could you see 
movies when your brothers are slaughtered" - they only waved her as a
"Meshigine" - mad woman.

What's KristalNacht to do with it anyway?

it was considered very nasty pogrom no more no less.
Nobody beleive at the time in the extent of Horors.
That's a fact, Mr. Henderson.
 
>-Jeremy Henderson            |  Anisotropic
> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk	     |  Density tensor!  Truly

David Ben-Ami.

-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:06:49 GMT
	<22239@venera.isi.edu> <4983@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: rdtst+@pitt.edu's message of 20 Aug 92 13:32:00 GMT

In article <4983@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:
>
> | But it is more reasonable to assume that LEHIs written rationale had
> | more to do with what they had in mind, than something being freshly
> | invented by posters to usenet.
> | --
> | Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>
>  That assumes that the document tells the whole story.  Often that
>   is not the case.  You would like us to only look at the issue as you see
>   it and disregard the context in which the document was drafted.  Your
>   approach is to edit out all conflicting material that contradicts your
>   predictably biased presentation of Israel.

Look, if you actually have some other documentation -- post it for
everyone to see.  If what you provided above is all you can say, then
I suggest that *you* are the one who is trying to "edit out all
conflicting material that contradicts your predictably biased
presentation of Israel".  Except that in your case the conflicting
material just happens to be LEHI's contacts with the Nazis.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:03:49 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug15150742@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:

>No, Jake, that is not exactly what you posted.  You listed several
>among many widely known terrorist actions that the PLO has taken
>"credit" (or perhaps more correctly debit) for, and phrased this list
>as a question for examples of Israeli terrorism of the same kind.
>That is what is intellectually dishonest.
>
>It was intellectually dishonest because the list was tailored to match
>what the PLO has done, and not to match what Israel has done.  If, for
>example, you had included on the list "bomb libraries" or "dress up as
>the opposition and go into their town and kill them" or "bomb civilian
>airliners", then similar examples of Israeli terrorism would be at
>hand.

I see that you are still arguing over lists. 

Without going into ancient history to dig up things that Israel may or
may not have been responsible for and which may or may not fit into
some definition of "terrorism", isn't it plain to see that the PLO is
today STILL primarily a terrorist group?  Now that almost all the
Western hostages have been freed has everyone forgotten who the true
terrorists in the M.E. are?  When Jews are being killed daily in their
own country by armed professionals who have dedicated their very lives
to the killing of those they disagree with, can you still be yelling
that Israel is actually the terrorist state that must be stopped?

Jim, no one is even listening to you anymore.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: answering Mr jaber
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 14:54:54 GMT

In article <889@hobby.ukc.ac.uk> karr@ukc.ac.uk (K.A.R.Razzooqi) writes:
>>from: phd21@seq1.kl.ac.uk (A. Jaber)
>>Organization: University of Keele, England
>
> >From: karr@ukc.ac.uk (K.A.R.Razzooqi)
>>
>        "UN resolutions which mean nothing for the Palestinians" !!!
>        Ahhhhaa, so liberating the KUWAITIS means nothing to the Palestinians!
>        Stopping the killing and torture of KUWAITIS means nothing to 
>        Palestinians!!!!. All that they care about are the bridges of iraq!!
>        What an argument Mr jaber,I am really impresed!!!!!
>

         Let me ask you a question? why did you help Saddam fight the Iranians?
         

>        I do not think that KUWAITIS were depending on Egyption media
>        to know the position of Palestinians.
>        The PLO , Jordanian media, and the people in Jordan did a very
>        good jobe in showing thier feelings very clearly.
>        Not to forget some Palestinians inside KUWAIT (during the occupation)
>        let's say minority,who showed very ..... feelings to the KUWAITIS.
>

         Don't you ask yourself why the Palestinians are upset not only 
         with the Kuwaitis, but with all the arabs in the Gulf? You used
         the Palestinias to build your country and then you try to get
         rid of them. Palestinians who were born in Kuwait were supposed
         to leave the country when they are over 18 years old. They are not
         allowed to open a business or buy a house unless he is a partner to
         a Kuwaiti. When you get angry with a Palestinian you called him 
         " abook yal falastini". A European can get a visa at the airport
         but when a Palestinian tries to get a visa at the kuwaiti embassy
         you look at his travel document in contempt and refuse to give him
         a visa. You refused to give the Palestinian Arabs Kuwaiti passport
         and when a persian apply for it you give it to him right away.

         And you ask yourself amazing why the Palestinian sided with Saddam?
>        
>        I think this is the biggest mistake done by the Palestinians.
>        Because:-
>        HOW CAN YOU SUPPORTE AN OCCUPIER (the thug saddam) AND THEN COME 
>        AND SAY I AM AGAINST ANOTHER OCCUPIER (the isrealis)???!
>  
  
         The Palestinian supported Saddam not because he occupied Kuwait,
         but because he shouted slogans against Israel, which I think he
         used the Palestinians by doing that. I myself cussed Saddam on
         August 2, 1990 when I heared on CNN that he invaded Kuwait. I 
         actually cussed him when he invaded Iran too.


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Loan Guarantees
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:47:18 GMT
	<1992Aug16.111256.16924@discus.technion.ac.il> <22220@venera.isi.edu>
	<93956@bu.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: gene@cs.bu.edu's message of 18 Aug 92 17:40:04 GMT

In article <93956@bu.edu> gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis) writes:
>
> In article <22220@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >Perhaps.  But according to Rabin, building will continue on ALL
> >structures where it has begun, not just those that are almost finished.
> >So even where only foundation work has started, the building will be
> >completed.  And based on the fact that Shamir accelerated the pace in
> >his last few months, I would hazard the guess that there are more buildings
> >in their early stages than in their late stages of construction.
>
> How does that jibe with the recent posting of Hank quoted below?
>
> ++++++++++ BEGIN EXCERPT +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> From: HANK@BARILVM.BITNET (Hank Nussbacher)
> Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
> Subject: Drying out the settlements
> Date: 6 Aug 92 09:04:36 GMT
> . . .
> People  were  saying  that  the
> government would not allow new building to start but in fact, it  is
> *all* government  sponsored building  that has  stopped.
> . . .
> ++++++++++++++++ END EXCERPT +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> There is more in the article if you missed it. Btw, it was this
> article which caused Yigal to consider withdrawing all the bad things
> he said about Rabin in the past (I guess he did not get too far past
> the "consider" stage). So, Yigal, we know you've seen it. Already
> forgot?

Personally, I do not put much trust in the hysterical and tendentious
West Bank settlers.  Their past statements on the status of things in
the occupied territories do not inspire confidence in me.  Sorry.

In the meantime, Israeli papers from last week report that fanatic
settlers have taken over more land in the occupied territories and begun
building new units.  The military, after initially objecting, backed
down -- not unlike they used to under the Shamir government.  Mr.
Nussbacher must have been too busy to report this minor event.

Curiously, the settlers seem to have learned something from the
Operation Rescue folks here in the US.  I understand that they were
shoving their children into the vans that were trying to take away
settlers arrested at the site.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 20:54:55 GMT


In a previous article, stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) says:

>Adam Shostack writes
>
>+ Meet in the region, Cairo or Tel-Aviv should both be acceptable sites
>+ to all parties.  Why are middle East peace talks taking place in
>+ Washington?  Parties should negotiate with each other, not via Baker.
>
>Because nobody can agree on a place to meet that's acceptable to *all*
>the participants and still be in the MidEast??

You mean nobody but Israel.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast