From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Intolerance, re homosexuality and filks
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:17:36 GMT


             Intolerance

"I for one find it disgusting that Sir Brian would find association
with an individual of sexual orientatioon that differed from his own
difficult if that individual choose to display his/her prefered
standards." (Hadrian, who goes on to argue, in effect, that one
should always fight against intolerance)

I find it less surprising that some people (Bryan) are made
uncomfortable by overt homosexuality than that some people (Hadrian)
are disgusted by that fact. Sexuality is closely linked to lots of
strong emotions, most of which are not under the direct control of
rational argument. 

There are, I think,  good reasons why homosexuals (and others) should
be free to practice their preferred forms of sex with consenting
adults. But that does not mean that everyone else is obliged to feel
comfortable about it. Bryan's body belongs to Bryan, and that
includes the inside of his head. I would have said that tolerance
means letting people do things that do not injure others even if you
disapprove, find what they are doing disgusting, immoral, or
undesirable for some other reason. It does not mean that each of us
must approve--or even feel comfortable with--everything everyone else
does.

To put the argument a little differently, a world in which there was
no behavior which people both disapproved of and tolerated would be
either a world with very little diversity of opinion or a world with
very little tolerance.

The rest of Hadrian's posting reminds me of a story a friend told me
about a classroom experiment done by a colleague of his, who was
teaching about the history of Nazism. Practically all of the students
were confident that if only they had been there, they would of course
have spoken up against Nazi oppression, however great the cost. So
the teacher announced what the next exam was going to cover, and then
gave an exam on entirely different material. Not a single student
objected. The next day the teacher asked the students how they felt
about the exam, and why they had not protested its unfairness. The
answer, of course, was that when it came to real costs, such as the
risk of offending the teacher or looking like a fool, they discovered
that they were a lot less courageous than when they were imagining
themselves as heroes with their lives at stake.

"after some thought, and talking with my housemate about this post,
it  occurred to me (because he suggested it) that discrimination on
basius  of religion, or even the lack of it, is unconstitutional."
(ailsa)

Where in the constitution do you find that? Under the first
amendment, congress "shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and the
restriction is extended to the state governments via the 14th
amendment as usually interpreted, but none of that makes
discrimination by individuals or firms on the basis of religion (or
race, or sex, or age, ...) unconstitutional. Insofar as such
discrimination is illegal in some contexts it is the result of
legislation, not the constitution.

                 Filks, Straw Men, or
           Interkingdom Differences?

"First there is what I am calling, for sake of convenience and
alliteration,  "fact" songs...songs we know came from period sources.
(I will allow songs  translated into modern English here, as well.)
Some of the populace believe,  as is their right, although I think
them misled, that these are the *only*  entertainments worthy of the
light of the campfires of the Society. Sobeit." (Moreach NicMaolain)

Who believes that? I thought I had the most restrictive bardic circle
at Pennsic until Aryk started posting about his, and I do not think
either of us takes that position. It sounds as though you are
criticizing a position nobody holds--or do you know people who do?
Perhaps this is another interkingdom difference.

David/Cariadoc