HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: seb@draper.com (Steve Bacher)
Subject: Geneticism and free will
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 04:49:03 GMT

Rodney Adams writes:
--- begin quote ---
If you are interested in pursuing this topic, you might also want to look at
the "Personal Intelligences" chapter in Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind: The 
Theory of Multiple Intelligences.  While Garder says little about sexual 
orientation, he does link such things as one's sense of self, wants, reactions
to others, and interpersonal relations to the frontal lobes of the brain, so
you might want to follow up on the researchers he cites as studying this region,
concentrating particularly on what things could affect the development of the
frontal lobes.

--- end quote ---

Now this is interesting.  Does this suggest that all human "choices" are
predetermined by hormonal inputs?  If so, then does this mean that we are
not responsible for our actions because all our inclinations are set at
or before birth?  Is there, then, no free will because all our actions
are functions of genetic + environmental phenomena?

OK, this is an age-old thread, but Gardner's musings put a new twist on it.

Idly I wonder how a Christian approaches this.  Does this mean that sin is
not possible since there are no "choices"?  Or does this merely confirm
"original sin", except that it is "original" on a case-by-case basis?
A kind of predeterminism?  Just curious, Rodney - how do YOU interpret it?

- seb
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jimt@carson.u.washington.edu (James Thompson)
Subject: Re: Is this line thing silly?
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 05:23:31 GMT

In article <718495270.F00003@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:
>
> m> So doesn't the above 1 dimensional line actually occupy
> m> a great deal of the volume of the physical universe over time?
>
>Nope.  Each "incarnation" of the line is just a line, so no matter how many of
>them you make or how you wiggle them, they take up a total of zero volume.
>
> m> I just couldn't sleep last night, and thought that up.  Is it silly?
>
>Yup.  But we need silliness once in a while.  Or twice.

Ah, but does "once" in a while actually take up any time, or is it
instantaneous, and therefore dimensionless?  If so, then getting silliness
"once in a while" amounts to getting nothing.  Doing this twice won't help.

Jim
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: The An-Tai conspiracy game
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 03:00:52 GMT

Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
>
> twb> How "Tai" may be a Bourbaki-style group, having fun with us.
>
>A what?

"Nicholas Bourbaki", was really a group of (French, I think) mathematicians
all writing under that name.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Famous Mensans
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:54:15 GMT

In article <mike_steiner-091092111559@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.155037.21282@cbnewse.cb.att.com>,
>gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) wrote:
>> 
>> In article <1992Oct9.073439.27339@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>> >gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
>> >>In article <1992Oct2.082905.16918@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>> >>I like to say, "Get a load of the frontal lobes on that one".
>> >>
>> >>But courteously, in a very respectful way, of course.
>> >>
>> >I recall in my mail-gap, you suggested Madonna was taken. Since she & I
>> 
>> She's free next week Wednesday, I think, but that was as of yesterday.
>> I could ask.
>> 
>> >have a psychic link, I'll be able to read out your sexual prowess when I
>> 
>> Prepare yourself.
>> 
>> >do your chart (though being born in Illinois puts you beneath 0 to start,
>> >so here's high hopes for you.)
>> >But, I guess, there's still Geena Davis - she's sorta flighty - probably a
>> >Libra.
>> 
>> Fun to talk to, tho'.  She was in Hero with me.  Goldblum's a big guy,
>> tho', so care must be taken.
>
>Goldblum's out of the picture; they got divorced about a year ago.
>

Yeah.  Tell him that.  He's still pissed off at me.

GM("New 'Fly' by Night")S
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: The An-Tai conspiracy game
Date: 8 Oct 92 03:11:50 GMT
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Originator: cjdcosta@zepplin.ece.ncsu.edu


Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>
> JCR> These are my suggestions alone, but perhaps we can 
> JCR> initiate a convergence
> JCR> whereby we can add 'signatures' to this document over 
> JCR> the course of time.
> JCR> The signatures will demonstrate how collectively these views are held.
> JCR> All you do is post-with-contents and leave the document at its prior
> JCR> level of indentation (editing, sorry), and add your signature.
> JCR> This document can serve as the only reply anyone 
> JCR> makes in response to Tai.
>
> JCR> The format of the signature is shown below.
>
> JCR> Eric C. S. Dynamic (ecsd@tfs.com)
>
>Holy wasted bandwidth, Batman!  That's going to result in several sets of
>signatures floating around, as people "reply" to different versions.  

Maybe you're right, but it's not any more waste than the tired discredited 
arguments that the Tai keeps cycling through ROM, and the endless rebuttals
from the newer posters. 

The more sets of signatures floating around, the better, IMO. And it's fairly
factual and flame-free.


>Better
>yet, since you suggested the signatures idea, you can collect names and userids
>of people who agree with it, and post it monthly with the list appended.  Sorta
>like a FAQ list.  You may add my name to the list as:
>
>           Dave Aronson (Dave.Aronson@blkcat.fidonet.org)

Guess that'll work too, if Eric doesn't mind investing the time and effort.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams)
Subject: Re: Part of a reply to Rodney - more later re: the dark side
Keywords: way long
Reply-To: "Rodney Adams" <RADAMS@BNR.CA>
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd.
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 12:24:13 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.092950.13076@tfs.com>, ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
[...]
|> (1) I male. Walk down street. Ahead: woman with nice hair and nice ass.
|> I come alongside to see her face. Oops! *He*'s wearing a mustache and beard;
|> it's a he; boy, am I embarrassed. Cancel all sexual feelings.
|> Answer: wrong. If he had a nice ass before I knew it was a him, he still has
|> a nice ass now. Moral: recognize that sexual affect is attached-to-gender by
|> an agent other than that which has the perception.

Ahh, there's the difference between us.  I'm a "face" man, myself, so I 
would never get in that situation. ;)

Seriously, though, THAT was the kind of response I was seeking.  For
sharing your candid views on society, sexuality, and religion, I thank
you.  While my beliefs differ from your own, you have given me insight
and assistance in furthering my understanding of others.
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodney G. Adams
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of my employer.
As if you didn't already know that....
"A man with a watch knows what time it is; a man with two watches isn't
so sure."                                                   - Anonymous
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: Is this line thing silly?
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 17:31:25 GMT

In article 2442@brandonu.ca, mcbeanb@brandonu.ca () writes:
>Lemme draw a line:
>
><-------------------------------------------------------------------->
>
>That line is supposed to be one dimension, extending to infinity in
>either direction right?
>
>But as we follow it one way or the other, it moves higher and higher
>off the surface of the Earth, and shoots off into space, right?
>Meanwhile, the Earth is rotating on it's axis and revolving
>around the sun, so the line I rew above is constantly changing it's
>position in the universe.  Also, the line above is being propogated
>to computer screens all around the world, each pointing in a different
>direction.  So doesn't the above 1 dimensional line actually occupy
>a great deal of the volume of the physical universe over time?
>
>I just couldn't sleep last night, and thought that up.  Is it silly?
>
>Brian McBean  -  McBeanB@BrandonU.Ca


So glad you asked.  And now, the envelope please ----

The answer is 

	YES.

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Subject: Re: Is this line thing silly?
Originator: cjdcosta@zepplin.ece.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 04:07:44 GMT


ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)

[...]
>-sz  (Dives back into Grunbaum, Russell, St. Augustine, McTaggart. . .)
>   ((You hear a tortured, muffled scream from somewhere in Indiana. . .))

:-7 So did you hit Grunbaum, Russell, St. Augustine, or McTaggart ?
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:24:02 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.134210.25181@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
>Jones goes into the election place, takes a ballot, deliberately leaves
>the Presidential-elector column blank, and votes in every other race on
>the ballot.  Smith goes into the election place, takes a ballot, ignores
>the Presidential-elector column, and votes in every other race on the
>ballot.  Jones intended to protest by voting "blank".  Smith did not
>care.  Tell me how you can determine the difference between Jones'
>ballot and Smith's ballot.

Well, obviously, I can see from Smith's ballot that he supports each
of the candidates equally, and does not want to play favorites, since
he really cannot distinguish between the relative value of them.

And obviously Jones hates them all and wishes there were a candidate
somewhere that could support his views, but doesn't know of one.

But the messages sent are those the senders intended, so the receivers
will obviously get them correctly.

So here, not voting works well.  But only because of Moe, the guy 
sitting in the parking lot, who is sending all kinds of messages
to the folks in Washington, because they really don't know where he
is, but man, are they worried because of what's falling down around
their ears.  Funny thing is that Moe really doesn't understand what
the candidates said during their debate because of all the big
words.  So if taxes go up, we know it's just Moe problems and
Moe of the same.


GM("Just say 'Moe'")S
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Geneticism and free will
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:36:58 GMT

In article <JT.92Oct16142207@fizyk1.fuw.edu.pl> jt@fuw.edu.pl (Jerzy Tarasiuk) writes:
>>>>>> On Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:57:10 GMT, wiegand@rtsg.mot.com (Robert Wiegand) said:
>Robert> radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams) writes:
>>Chaos theory would imply that such a predeterminism could not exist, for
>>the states of all things can not be known with arbitrary precision at any
>..
>Robert> I don't quite agree with this. Chaos theory (as I understand it) doesn't
>Robert> rule out predeterminism, it just prevents an outside observer from

Chaos theory rules out predeterminism in that it states that systems
can experience random, unpredictable fluctuations and that these
fluctuations can have very large effects.  
>
>But quantum mechanics rules it out. As I remember from handbook, there

Here, you're talking about the probability of a particle being in
a particular state.

When you talk about predicting the position of a particle, you are
referring to the idea that the velocity and the position of a particle
cannot be simultaneously known.  This is a measurability/observability
problem, not a "predictability" problem.  Of course, if you predict
something but can't tell if it happened...  it's not a simple problem,
for sure.

Anyone for believing in "spirits" again?

GMS


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: Geneticism and free will
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 08:16:10 GMT

"Rodney Adams" <RADAMS@BNR.CA> writes:
>Chaos theory would imply that such a predeterminism could not exist, for
>the states of all things can not be known with arbitrary precision at any
>instant in time.  Thus, our inclinations and perception could be hormonally
>influenced without requiring the predetermination of our thoughts, i.e. 
>we may "feel" a certain way about people and things, but it is our "choice"
>to react as we do.  For example, someone who, biologically speaking, should
>be homosexual could, probably in yielding to societal or religious pressures,
>choose to be heterosexual, although this would seem unnatural to the 
>individual and might cause emotionally-related, sexual disfunction.

Question for you: do you accept for other people of all stripes to be out,
around, and doing what they do? I.e. do you espouse the same general social
freedoms I do? Just curious.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: ASTROLOGY READINGS, come and get it (not a reading yet, sorry Karleen)
Organization: Baphomet - that's Mr. Baphomet to you
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 09:35:56 GMT

ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:
>I'd *like* to hit McTaggart. . .unfortunately, I have to objectively
>relate his argument without inserting my measly undergraduate opinions.
>
>-sz  (whose entire worldview gets blown to bits every class session)

How many mental revolutions per day?
Your opinions are probably as good as McTaggart's. The reason you're in school
is to understand why his text is being used in class and not yours.
Unfortunately, by the time you graduate from this lesson, you'll be his age.

Hey guys.

I am curious to see if this teeny thumbnail test shows anything:

Three charts up to be read soon:

Karleen Davis
Gisle Hannemyr
Steve Marting

Three 'thumbnail', "overall archetypal life-theme impressions":

Born to be a Star -or- Entertainment Tonight
Rebel Without a Horse
Trouble in Fairyland

Would these people step forward to claim that 'theme' which they feel BEST
represents their feel for their own situation? I'd appreciate it.
I will be titling the readings with these headings, so you'll see; or after
all three have responded, I will announce the results.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sonic@cray.com (Curtis L. Swanson)
Subject: Re: t// Re: t-- Re: t// t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:57:41 CDT

gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:

~In article <1992Oct6.025547.28868@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) 
~writes:
~>
~>sonic@cray.com (Curtis L. Swanson) writes:

Oops.  "Scott" wrote this, not me.

~>No--every time I try to initiate intelligent debate, the thread is
~>usually ignored.

~Well, why don't you have yourself tested and then share the results
~with the folks on the net?  If you have some kind of simple communication
~idiosyncrasy, you might find a way to overcome it.  Chances are, you've
~been trying to generate what appears to you as a reasonable, coherent
~chain of reasoning, and it has been lost on the audience of ROM and
~the other folks on the various net-groups.  Heck, history is full of
~the very bright that have been misunderstood until far later periods
~in time than those in which they originated their ideas.  Some of the
~most brilliant minds in history have been occasionally considered
~insane.  Don't waste the thought.

Maybe I'm in good company then.  I'll have to put on my propellor beanie and
think about this....

~Later.  And good luck, buddy.

~GMS


***  Curt Swanson  ***  sonic@romulus.cray.com  ***  IOTTMCO  *********
HOME:n - That mythical place where you can go and relax.......
I'd rather be in a coma.........
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Nazi caterpillars from Venus
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:13:39 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.153610.1@woods.ulowell.edu> welchb@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
>Another aspect I encounter is that ascii is different than human expression.
>We take face-to-face communication so much for granted, that we presume
>(in scores of ways) that the other person is reading into the communication
>what we want to put into it.  We make tons of assumptions about tone of voice, 
>facial expressions, speed of delivery, accent, known background of the 
>recipient, etc.  Then we wonder why someone gets mad, or misinterprets
>what is "perfectly obvious" to us about what the words meant.

Which should simply be a reminder to think prior to responding.
The responsibility of communication is symmetrical.  Further,
requesting clarification prior to voicing assumptions is always
a nice thing to do when assumptions must be made.

GMS
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:59:53 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Oct13.130833.12995@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, edp@math.zk3.dec.com
(Eric Postpischil) wrote:

> Voting in an election means accepting its premises, and
> that is not acceptable to some people.

What are the premises of an election?  There has been nothing that you have
written so far that has shown me that not-voting, in and of itself, can do
anything beneficial.

As Dave Aronson wrote, there is no way that anyone can tell whether you
don't vote out of apathy or you don't vote as a protest.  Even in Hawaii,
if you write in a vote and thereby invalidate your ballot, you generate a
statistic showing that you voted against the candidates on the ballot.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:30:09 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.190340.14024@walter.cray.com> sonic@bearpit.cray.com (Curtis Swanson) writes:
>In article <BvvFLG.8zp@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu 
>(Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:
>|>I just heard someone campaigning for people to boycott the vote
>|>in order to show people in government that we don't support them.
>|>He argues that this is the most effective way to "fix" this 
>|>Does anyone care to explain by what sort of logic this would work?
>
aThe only way this would work is if the U.S. had a "none of the above"
option on the ballot. Since it is unlikely to happen (b/c the major
political parties have a vested interest in not having to run more than
one campaign for each office for $$$$ reasons and serious governmental
crises could occur - what do you do when November 4 rolls around and you
discover that 80% of the country didn't want ANY president or
congressmen?) don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

Tom

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: Famous Mensans
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 08:49:31 GMT

gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:

>>Geena Davis - Libra?.
>
>Fun to talk to, tho'.  She was in Hero with me.  Goldblum's a big guy,
>tho', so care must be taken.

She's not seeing him any more - not after what I mailed to her anonymously.

>And, BTW, you've gotten e-mail from me and seen my birth data, several
>of which point out that I was born in Detroit.

Uh-oh. I must have everyone East of the Mississippi shifted one state East.
And no cracks about how Illinois is not all East of the Mississippi. Must
I forever cover my ass in this group?

>You're supposed to be doing my chart, here, so there's credibility at
>stake!

Huh? We've already concluded that my net worth is the sum of other's estimates
of me. What they don't know is that I don't care.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:50:32 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Oct12.225021.20519@engage.pko.dec.com>,
moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Oct12.200629.18236@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes...
> >In article <1992Oct12.184038.12632@engage.pko.dec.com>,
> >moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com writes:

> >>This is wrong.  By not voting you give up all authority to select a leader to
> >>those who do vote and accept the consequences of that act.
> 
> >That is incorrect.  The people who vote might have the power or ability
> >to select a leader, but they have no authority to do so on your behalf.
> 
> By not voting you give them the authority, as non-cast votes are not counted
> against those on the ballot.  The one with the majority wins, even if the total
> vote for the candidate is 0.1% of those eligible to vote.

One way that not voting ould work as a protest is if the election laws were
changed so that if the number of voters were less than a defined minimum
percentage of all eligible voters, the election would not be valid. 
Essentially, it would be a "quorum" requirement.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa