From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Kaufman and Miller Rnd 1 (was re: Abortion is a Sin Against God!)
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:09:12 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Jul24.124442.3462@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes:

> 
>    Since Mr. Jammer Miller has decided that the name of this game
> will be "Evaluate the Other Guy's Religion", I'll play along.  If
> The Spanish Inquisition, Jim and Tammy Baker, The Crusades, those
> good Christians who bomb abortion clinics, Jimmy Swaggart, all of
> those priests who have been molesting children over the years, an
> indifferent Catholic Church that moves these molesters to another
> parish so they can do it again, the good Christians who don their
> sheets and go out to burn crosses, labling Jews Christ killers, a
> certain Pope Pius XII who spent WWII kissing up to Hitler, and so
> much more, is what the enlightenment of Christianity is about, we
> prefer our primitive Judaism, thank you.

  Touchy, aren't we?  Enjoy dishing out but not taking it?  Relax.
You quoted Leviticus, not me.  I just made an observation on ancient
cultures that seems pretty valid from all I've ever seen.  Note that I 
did not exclude any "christian" cultures from that observation, either.
We needn't look far to find atrocities commited in the name of religion
x, y or z.

  If I wanted to do that, all I'd need do is mention the Palestinians.
Next question.

>    And you also accused me of making generalizations about anti's
> lack of involvement with REAL children.  So I ask Mr. Jammer what
> HE HAS DONE for homeless children, abused children, orphans, kids
> born with fetal alchohol sydrome, kids born addicted, babies born
> HIV-positive, helping teenage mothers, or anything that resembles
> helping REAL people, not just microscopic embryos.

  Well, besides some money, time, support of appropriate legislation,
and tireless bitching and moaning on the net in support of the proper
attitudes to help get this sort of thing taken care of, not a damn 
thing.  Yourself?

>    I do not presume to tell Christians what they should or should
> not believe.  I would appreciate it if Mr. Jammer stops trying to
> tell me what Jews believed yesterday, or what they believe today.

  You told us what the Jews of yesterday apparently believed, not I.
You produced the quote from Leviticus, not I.  What Jews may or may
not believe today I have gleaned from listening to what they have to 
say--and I note that I said nothing about what Jews believe today in
my post.

> You don't know what you are talking about.  The fact is that what
> you call the old testament happens to be the Bible that Christian
> theology disregarded in favor of the New Testament.  

  Ummm, actually that is in essence exactly what I said.  Christians
ARE supposed to follow the New Testament.  I will note there are an
unhappily large number of those who call themselves such and never
seem to have read it, relying on the old "eye for an eye" bit.

> There do not
> happen to be ANY Christian bibles that have a good translation of
> the Hebrew.

  If you happen to be a scholar on the subject then I'll believe you.
But the vitriol of your statements makes me wonder.

>  So if you want to know anything about what the Bible
> of the Jews really means, you will have to learn Hebrew.  
> Or else
> you could stop presuming that you know anything about Judasim, so
> you might learn something.

  Moi?  You made the statement from the Old Testament/Jewish Bible, not
me.  I simply addressed what YOU informed us was apparently a Jewish
belief.  Did I get it wrong?

>    As a point of information, Judasim does not consider the fetus
> to be a person, until childbirth.  Prior to that a pregnant woman
> is regarded as only one person.

  Unfortunate.  For the fetus, of course.

  Mr. Kaufmann, you are under the mistaken impression that I'm here judging
Judaism as a religion.  Hardly.  Nor am I presuming to tell you how to
practice it or what you're supposed to believe.  If your original post, which
related to a quote from the Old Testament/Jewish Bible, was intended for
pro-life Jewish bible-thumpers, then it is a valid religious point to bring
to their attention.  That's why I included the disclaimer line.  If, on the
other hand, you meant it for Christian bible-thumpers (which is how I most
often hear the term "bible-thumper" used), then MY point is still valid, and
quoting Old Testament to a Christian is like quoting the Articles of 
Confederation to the US under the Constitution.  As a parent document, it is 
worthy of study and examination, but it is not the law of the land.

semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
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