From: mfolenta@pica.army.mil
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Effectiveness of pepper gas
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:39:23 GMT


     OK folks, here's a big file about chemical weapons (tear-gas type
 weapons, not mustard gas or Lewissite(sp I know) etc).  This file was 
 posted over on rec.martial-arts a while ago, but it does give a pretty
 good in depth (negative) review of personal defense chemical weapons.

     EXECUTIVE SUMMARY : Effects of chemical weapons/deterrents is not
 that great on a _determined_ attacker.  The newest "Capsicum"-type sprays
 may have an effect on more of the population than Mace-type sprays (there
 are some people who are just NOT affected by Mace, and tolerance to
 capsicum varies also), but they WILL NOT reliably _STOP_ a determined attacker!

     With all that said, they still are better than nothing and they _may_ 
 give you the break you need to escape an attack.  YMMV.  Caveat emptor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 From: rtravsky@isis.cs.du.edu (Rich Travsky)
 Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
 Subject: AWSDA Chemical Irritant Experiments
 Date: 13 May 92 22:37:39 GMT
 Lines: 229

I found the following article on the use of chemical irritants in the 
winter 1991 issue (vol 2 no 2) of the AWSDA (American Women's Self 
Defense Association) newsletter (ok, so the mail in Wyoming is slow ;).
Most interesting.  I laboriously scanned it; whew! (Hopefully I've 
not violated any copyright laws.)

As my posting access is rough, I'll refrain from adding my own comments,
as responding would not be easy. For the most part, the article stands
on its own.

Enjoy, and reflect...

Richard Travsky
Division of Information Technology     RTRAVSKY @ CORRAL.UWYO.EDU

======= article starts here ==== snippety snip ========================

WHAT A DIFFERENCE A GOAL MAKES! THE CHEMICAL IRRITANT EXPERIMENTS
by Phil Messina

	It all started in June of 1990. There was a bill in
the New York State Assembly to legalize the use of
Mace for civilians. The bill had already passed the
Senate by a 49 to 6 vote and if it passed the Assembly,
New York would become the 48th state to legalize this
product. Modern Warrior's equipment section had
already gotten hundreds of requests from persons who
thought it was already legal. Dozens of stores were
already selling it in anticipation of the bill passing.
Everything looked rosy and we were in a great position
to make lots of money on both the sale of Mace and the
classes that would go with it. There was just one
problem. It was the kind of problem that always seems
to pop up when things look great. And of course it was
the worst kind of problem, a moral one. You see, I
knew deep down inside that Mace didn't do what it was
supposed to and that left me with only one choice I
could live with: to go out and prove it.

	We lined up eight men and two women. Each
was told to hide a rubber knife either behind their belt
or in their back pocket. As they were sprayed, each
had to draw out their knife, advance on the person
spraying them and stab him at least three times before
going for first aid. The participants were not allowed to
run or to block the spray in any manner. Neither party
was allowed to use defensive tactics techniques
because we were testing a product and not each
individual's training. To make a long story short, all ten
attackers easily achieved their goal. No one was
stopped. We sent our results to the State Assembly
and the bill was killed. I thought the dilemma was over.
It wasn't. Within days, we started getting calls from
politicians and the media. The politicians said our
experiment wasn't valid because no impartial parties
were there to see that the Mace was real. The media
said they wanted us to repeat the experiment with them
present. In September of 1990, we did just that.

	This time however, the test was sponsored by the
American Women's Self Defense Association
(AWSDA). To dramatize the test to women's groups,
we used ten female attackers against an off duty police
officer. The results were the same. Each woman
walked through the multiple sprays of Mace and
repeatedly stabbed the officer. The test was aired on
TV and written about in the newspapers. We had
proven our point and there was no need for further
tests, right? Wrong.

	We were soon swamped with phone calls.
Dozens of callers thanked us for conducting our tests
and then asked what we thought about capsicum
sprays. We told them our intention was not to compare
products, but to educate the public about the dangers
of overconfidence in deterrent sprays. Even capsicum

manufacturers and distributors were asking us to test
their product and were using our Mace tests in their
advertising. After months of debate, we finally agreed
to test capsicum the following July.

	On July 31st, 1991 we kept that promise. We
decided to conduct the test in the same way we
conducted the two previous Mace experiments. Our
subjects were five men and five women of various sizes
and ages. I expected some of the participants to
succeed because they were all Modern Warrior
students. Although their training experience ranged
from one to seven years, each had been trained to
accomplish goals, rather than perform tasks. That is
the nature of Modern Warrior training. Because of this
factor, I expected the senior students to succeed and
the junior students to fail. I had seen videotapes of
previous experiments and watched the participants
drop to their knees instantly. I waited in anticipation to
see how many students would make it. They all did;
one by one they marched through the capsicum spray
and stabbed their attacker. Although all of the non
participants were coughing and tearing, the participants
just kept walking up to the line and accomplishing their
goals. None were stopped although each was sprayed
at least three times. When the test was concluded, I
had a difficult time hiding the fact that I was totally
battled. I only knew one thing for certain. This couldn't
be the last experiment.

	Two weeks later, we were back. With us were a
police officer and a civilian who were not martial artists.
The civilian was a freelance writer who was doing an
article for a women's magazine on "Self Defense
Weapons for Women." There were six participants in all.
The first subject was the First Deputy Director of the
American Women's Self Defense Association. She
calmly walked through the capsicum spray, stabbed her
victim several times and walked to the first aid station.
Next came the freelance writer. She accomplished the
same goal, plus timed herself with a stopwatch which
was hanging off her belt. Third came a male subject
with eight months of martial arts experience. He walked
through the spray, stabbed his victim repeatedly, then
walked to the first aid station. As the attendants came
over to assist he waved them off and went to the
unoccupied bench by himself for a rinsing. At this time
we decided to change the experiment a little.

	Our fourth subject was a school teacher with two
years of martial arts experience. She was instructed to
stand behind a table and do nothing as she was
sprayed. The sprayer stood five feet away and sprayed
her for approximately five seconds until his can was
empty. The subject stood there tearing and coughing.
After about fifteen seconds the sprayer took a step
toward her and the subject went into a combat position.
Finally after about thirty seconds she was asked to go
for first aid. She later claimed that she thought the
sprayer was instructed to attack her and that she could
have stood there indefinitely. The fifth subject was the
Executive Director of AWSDA (who was cosponsoring
the experiment) with seven years of martial arts
experience. She stood at the table with a rubber knife
on top of it. The sprayer was instructed to spray her for
three seconds then to walk away in a zigzag fashion to
test her ability to see and adjust. After being sprayed
the subject picked up the knife, threw over the table
and followed the sprayer. Each time he changed
direction she adjusted stabbing and slashing him about
twenty times. She then sat down, untied her sneakers,
removed them and jumped in the pool.

	For the last test we used two police officers and a
five percent compound. The sprayer was asked to
spray the subject as many times as necessary and to
evade the subject any way he could. The spraying
officer sprayed and backpedaled at the same time.
The subject kept coming through the spray in pursuit.
The officer then moved to the side and the subject
followed. Finally the officer attempted to push and
strike the subject only to get blocked and pushed into
the side of a hammock where he was stabbed
repeatedly. The whole attack lasted about 15 seconds
and covered approximately 100 feet.

	I've thought about our experiments and why the
results were so different than those conducted by
people I respect and admire, and I think I've found the
answer. Several years ago I went on a coal walking
weekend. For two days we were told that we could
walk through the coals and not get burned. On the last
day a magazine reporter showed up to take pictures.
One at a time we all walked through the coals and none
of us got hurt. Suddenly the reporter took off his shoes
and socks and walked into the coals. About halfway
through he let out a scream and ran to the side with
third degree burns on his feet. You see, he hadn't been
taught how to properly walk through and didn't really
believe he could.

	I'm sure that if my test subjects had spent six or
eight hours being told how the capsicum would stop
them and really believed in it, they would have been
stopped. Instead, however they were taught to believe
in themselves and their ability to accomplish their
goals. Even the two non-martial artists had previously
seen a tape of the first experiment. So you see the
difference lies in the goals. All those other experiments
were conducted by capsicum instructors. Their
subconscious goal was to see the product work. My
experiments were conducted by non instructors. Their
subconscious goal was to overcome the product.

	You may wonder what I think of capsicum spray
now. Well, I think it's far superior to Mace. I also think
a police officer with proper training and the proper
backup tools to contain his aggressor and maintain a
safe distance will find it to be an effective addition to his
arsenal. As for civilians, however, I believe that 95% of
them who carry this product will not have the proper
training or the proper backup tools. This combined with
the grossly exaggerated advertising by the
manufacturers and distributors will lead to a false sense
of confidence that will likely get many people beaten,
raped or killed. Because, I believe that the most violent
criminals are determined to accomplish their goals.

	As far as who's experiments are more valid, I
really don't know. I guess each individual must make
that judgment. But judge carefully. Your life may
depend on it.

	Note: The Author would like to remind the reader
that none of the subjects in these experiments had
received defensive tactics training directly related to the
use of these products. Videotapes will be made
available by request of AWSDA members or ASLET
members. The Author welcomes your comments. You
may contact him at (516) 226-8383, or write to 711 N.
Wellwood Ave., Lindenhurst, NY 11 757.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Phil Messina is a former N.Y.P.D.
Sergeant, President of Modern Warrior Defensive Tactics
Institute, New York State Director of the American Society of
Law Enforcement Trainers, Director of Tactics and Training
for Warrior International Defensive Tactics Research
Foundation and Strategy Tactics Consultant for the American
Woman's Self Defense Association.


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