HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schultz@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Dennis Schultz)
Subject: Re: River ratings discussion
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date:  3 Aug 92 19:07:56 GMT

	Bader bashing: greatest sport next to river running.  Here's mine.
A friend invited me to watch some whitewater films being shown on campus.
If I knew it was going to be Eric Bader mc etc., I would have rather poked
my eyes out with a sharp stick.  They were all "first runs", of course.
I asked him how he determined if a stretch of river was run before.  He said,
"I claim all runs as a first until someone brings me notarized proof that
they ran it before him".  

Greatest whitewater video:  Eric Bader getting trashed at toilet bowl.

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Subject: Re: Whitewater footwear
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:27:13 GMT

David Elliott:
>I'm looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear?

>My current favorite is the Deep See zippered boot ..

This is what I use.  They work great.  I have the Coral Kings.
If its real slippery rock, go barefoot.

>A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.

Don't work when they are wet, and are expensive ~100 clams.


Ilana Stern:
>...and not enough of a sole [rock climbing shoes]
>to push against footpegs.

This doesn't wash, I kayak barefoot all the time.

>What about Tevas (or clones)?

Soles don't bend very well to fit into kayaks.  I find them
uncomfortable in kayaks, but wear them all the time otehrwise.

--Chris
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: clueless
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:28:56 GMT
Organization: Naval Research Lab, Physical Acoustics, Washington, DC

I intend to stop participating in this discussion about Olympic athletes.

John Stewart sez:
>The problem is that this type of facility substantially adds to the cost
>of training Olympic athletes.  Once one country has one, then any other
>country that wants to stay competitive must also have one.  These days
>an athlete has little chance of getting to the top unless their country
>has lots of money for

>   1) basic living expenses since training is a fulltime job.
>   2) travelling expenses since training must be carried out year round (for
>      Canadian athletes this would involve training for part of the year in
>      another country).
>   3) the best equipment and facilities.

Members of the US Flatwater A team got $2500.00 US last year to "help"
defray traveling.  They got free health insurance, and when at a training
camp - free food and lodging.  

Most members are supported by themselves and family.  They live spartan
lifes pursuing a goal that unless you've been close to it, you don't
understand it.  Living in an unheated/no hot water canoe club for years 
is only done out of desire...

>Today's athletes certainly have to be given credit for working so hard.
>I'm amazed that so many athletes are willing to concentrate so much time
>into a single sport.  Personally, I like switching sports every few months
>when the season changes.

Go check and see which olympic athletes from the US have made both Winter
and Summer in the same year.  Hint:  check Luge & Canoeing - 1984.  There
is only one other from the US (which admitly doesn't matter much :)).

Everybody crosstrains, and compete in other sports even at an international
level, the key here is desire to compete at the ultimate level with 
disregard to the unimportant aspects of life.  

Larry
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: flatwater vs. whitewater: paddle lengths differ?
Date: 14 Aug 92 11:43:17 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <1992Aug13.132745.21658@uvm.edu> geraghty@sadye.emba.uvm.edu (Kevin M Geraghty) writes:
>And if competitive flatwater paddlers use longer paddles, why is this
>so?  I can see plenty of advantages to a longer 
>paddle in the form of extra reach and leverage for sweeps, duffeks,
>etc.; but what are the offsetting disadvantages?  Lower stroke rate?
>Perhaps your top speed is higher with a longer paddle, but your
>acceleration is worse, which would be a big disadvantage on a slalom course.

Y'know, I pulled out the videotapes of the Games, and you're right.  I
suspect that the reason the flatwater racers use a longer paddle is to
utilize the longest lever arm possible.  This in turn partially explains
the horizontal position in the recovery stroke: the longer the paddle,
the more necessary it is to hold it horizontal in order to avoid dragging
either end in the water.

As to the preferences of slalom paddlers, shorter paddles are normally
used, mostly to decrease the chances of smacking a gate with one of the
blades.  I use a 210 for river running and slalom, and it's a bit awkward,
especially if I stall in a gate -- which I do a lot. :-)  I think something
like a 202 would be a bit easier to handle.  I don't think the shorter
length is much of a disadvantage: most of the turning strokes tend to
be duffeks, where the paddle's held vertically and so its length doesn't
matter.  There aren't that many acceleration strokes (hopefully) because
the idea is to keep boat speed pretty constant.  Hmm...and I suppose one
other way to look at it is that the paddler should be using the muscles
of the whole body for sweep and forward strokes, so a few extra centimeters
of length shouldn't be missed.

Of course, if I had a shorter paddle, I wouldn't be able to hit *both*
poles at once, much to the amusement of my paddling friends. :-)

---Rsk

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com (Todd Leigh)
Subject: Re: Fair price for a Noah Jetty?
Organization: trunking_fixed
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:48:16 GMT
Summary: Good beginners boat, price depends.
Keywords: Used-boat, Jeti

Mike,

A fair price depends on the condition and age of the boat.  Plastic boats 
tend to take a beating in whitewater, and UV breaks down the plastic over
the years.  A new boat like a Jeti costs around $750, and the price should
come down from there.  For a one year old boat in good condition, $500 is
probably a good price.  Drop the price $100 per year of normal use until 
you get to $200.  After 5 years of normal use, the boat may be ready to 
retire.  Of course, this rule of thumb depends a lot on how the boat was 
(ab)used.  A good place to check for wear is on the hull right under the 
seat.  That's where the hull takes the most beating, and where it
will probably wear through first.  If it seems thin there, price down 
accordingly.  Also, check the seat, grab loops, and outfitting for damage.
Check the cockpit rim for cracks, and the nose of the boat for big dents.

A Jeti is a good beginner boat, and should continue to be a good boat as
you improve.  It is stable and forgiving, and resists pinning because of
the blunt profile.  It's a shame that they are no longer made.

Todd.

-- 
Todd Leigh                Motorola Inc.      Opinions expressed here are
toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com    Schaumburg, IL     not those of "THE MANAGEMENT"
Facts all come with point of view. Facts don't do what I want them to.
                                           - Talking Heads
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Mad River Canoe New England Slalom Series
Date: 13 Aug 92 11:56:34 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

There are three races in this series this fall; here are some of the details.
If you call one of the contacts, they can send you a nice information packet
that is much more complete.

Classes:

Open Boat			Closed Boat
---------			-----------
OC-1 men short			K-1 men
OC-1 men medium			K-1 women
OC-1 women short		K-1 junior
OC-1 master short		K-1 master
OC-1 master medium		K-1 cadet
OC-1 women master		K-1 men rec
OC-1 junior			K-1 women rec
OC-1 junior
OC-1 rec
OC-2 men			C-1 men
OC-2 women			C-1 women
OC-2 mixed			C-1 junior
OC-2 masters			C-2
OC-2 junior/senior
OC-2 rec

The "rec" class is for commercially available ABS and poly boats.  You can't
race in a racing class and a "rec" class in the same boat, e.g. you can't
race K-1W an K-1W rec.

Note on rules: red and green gates, no mandatory reverses, 10 points
per pole (!) penalties.  No squirt boats will be allowed to race.
Some races may combine classes or offer extra classes.

September 13: Riverfest Slalom, Merrimack River ARMS Park, Manchester, NH
	Contact: Sonny Hunt
		158 N. Parish Road
		Concord, NH 03301
		(603) 753-9576

Entry fee is $8/class.  Expect 70,000 spectators (!).  Downriver race
on Saturday; contact Tom Walton at (603) 746-3207.

October 3-4: Esopus Slalom, Phoenicia, NY (Atlantic Division Championships)
	Contact: Esopus Registrar
		PO Box 173
		Scarborough, NY 10510
		(914) 762-5121

Entry fee is $8/class; no cadet classes, but C-2 men, C-2 women,
C-2 mixed and C-1 master will be added.  First runs Saturday, second
runs on Sunday.

October 11-12: Farmington Slalom, Otis, MA
	Contact: Farmington Registrar
		PO Box 173
		Scarborough, NY 10510
		(914) 762-5121

Entry fee is $8/class.  Extra classes inclue C-2 men, C-2 women, C-2 mixed
and C-1 master.  First runs on Saturday, second on Sunday.  Overall series
awards given out after the race.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: conor@lion.inmos.co.uk (Conor O'Neill)
Subject: Re: why no world record times
Reply-To: conor@inmos.co.uk (Conor O'Neill)
Organization: INMOS Limited, Bristol, UK.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:50:53 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.012039.9643@geovision.gvc.com> pt@geovision.gvc.com writes:
>Why this insistince on a totally level playing field?

I'd like to see sprint canoeing/rowing done on a sloping lake!

(Actually, I prefer my water to be sloping, cos I'm a slalomist).

---
Conor O'Neill, Software Group, INMOS Ltd., UK.
UK: conor@inmos.co.uk		US: conor@inmos.com
"It's state-of-the-art" "But it doesn't work!" "That is the state-of-the-art".
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Subject: Re: sixth water
Organization: University of Utah
Distribution: na
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:34:12

In article <JON.92Aug17142234@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:

one important point that i forgot to mention: sixth water will not be
around for long.  soon they will be putting it in a tube, as part of
the central utah project.  i can only hope that my skills improve
drastically before the run disappears.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: bobm@anasazi.com (Bob Maccione)
Subject: Re: Kayaking vs. Rowing
Organization: Anasazi Inc, Phoenix AZ USA
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:10:18 GMT

(Robert Holton) writes:
>pt@geovision.gvc.com writes:
>>What I don't understand is why they never talked about record times in the
>>rowing.
>>
>>Don't they recognize World and Olympic records in these sports, or do they
>>have to be set in a totally artificial environment?
>>
>>Paul Tomblin, pt@geovision.gvc.com or {uunet,revcan}!geovision!pt
>
>They talk about world's best or olympic best times, there is no official
>records as far as I know because the conditions are so variable between
>courses on different days, e.g. how windy, choppy, viscous the water is etc.
>

If this is true why would they care about the times in a marathon or
bike race since those courses are also very different between them?


bob 


Next question:

  how much water would you have to pump to run one of those whitewater
  courses?
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: hweingra@.com (Howard Weingram)
Subject: Re: spoiled brats who train
Reply-To: hweingra@oracle.UUCP (Howard Weingram)
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, CA
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:38:47 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Aug17.002202.2021@geovision.gvc.com> pt@geovision.gvc.com writes:
>hweingra@.com (Howard Weingram) writes:
>
>As it was, the only way I could tell who was pulling really hard, and who
>had decided to relax was by looking at the whirlpools and counting the
>stroke rate.  I'm _not_ a dedicated rowing/paddling fan - I'm a wilderness
>canoe tripper who got interested because Canada was doing so well, and
>because of the human interest of the Silken Laumann story. 
>
>If you ask any Canadian now, or a year from now, what was the proudest
>moment to be a Canadian, they would probably say it was when Silken, having
>dropped down to a very respectible 4th, fought back and took the Bronze.
>I'm sure rowing in Canada will have a huge boom in a couple of years
>because of all this publicity - so you guys better watch out for the
>ice-breaker skulls.
>

Not to mention the men's eight, which I as I understand it was NOT favored to
take home the gold....

Yes, Silken Laumann deserves every ounce of that medal. Her determination
and courage have won her worldwide respect. Canada can be proud of her.
And I have to admit that, although I was rooting for Anne Marden,
Silken had a special place in my heart too.
	
				hal 
                  ___o                        Howard Weingram
                  \   \                       ORACLE Network Products
                   \/\ |                      415/506-2885 hweingra@oracle.com
 "5,4,3,2,1 ARE YOU \ READY? (F#CK YES!) ROW!"
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: hull designs
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:43:28 GMT
Organization: Naval Research Lab, Physical Acoustics, Washington, DC

GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan) sez
>Interesting... what would be the advantage of a concave surface in
a kayak?  or do you mean the general cambre of the boat?  Aren't
there also strict regulations as to hull surfacing, etc.?
>

There has been very little research done on long/thin hull designs.
They are similar to the treaty cruisers of the 1920's wrt length:width
ratios.  However, if you look at the bow designs of David Taylor (of
model basin fame), in particular the bulbous/sea keeping bow of the
super tankers and fast military vessels there are concave lines.  
I'm not a naval architect, but to me it looks like another way to elminate
turbulence/wake (which is energy not being used to go forward, but rather
make turbulence).  Kayaks were built prior to the '72 games with 
concave hulls and tested in Washington D.C., they were 5 to 6 % faster
than exsisting designs.  Side note:  The 1948 flatwater C-2 1000M race
was won by cricks and hobbs.  They weren't very big or strong, but 
the revolutionized canoeing by designing the first minimum rule boat.
They looked at the rules and built the first "Delta" shaped canoe.
They walked all over much bigger/stronger competition...

Interestingly, I'm told that rowing shells don't have the same restrictive
regs wrt hull shape, boat length, and weight.  The shells are extremely
long and thin, which raises the hull speed (approx = sqrt of length).  
The limit becomes how long can you make a lightweight structure that will
support 230lbs.

There are now restriction on coatings as well.  It has been illegal for
30 years to use liquid sufficants (soap is popular with sail boats) to
reduce the surface tension between the water and hull.  600 grit sand paper
does provide a place for water to "eddy" out so that you get a water-to-water
surface effect.  3M created a material that was based on the skin of
the shark called "rivlet" material.  It was designed for the MK48 ADCAP
torpedo program, and used by the 12m boys when in the America Cup was
down under.  The US flatwater team prepared kayaks and canoes with it
for the '87 season and the boats were generally 1 to 2 % faster (that is
a metric shitload) than without.  They were able to get the boats past
the judges (it's the surface of the boat/not a coating!) and were used
in the semi-finals.  In a major blunder (imo), the team manager would not
allow the boats to be used in the finals.  Rivlet material was banned at
the next ICF meeting...

Larry
From: rbw3q@helga9.acc.Virginia.EDU (Robert B. Whitehurst)
Subject: Re: Whitewater footwear
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:57:08 GMT

In article <2196@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu> beck@a.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Jon Beck) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.215157.24701@smsc.sony.com>, dce@smsc.sony.com (David Elliott) writes:
>> I'm looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear?
>
>Nothing I've ever used comes close to Tevas. I use the original model
>with the thong between 1st and 2nd toes, as they're much more secure
>on the foot. In the summer, I wear them alone. In cold weather, I wear
>one-toed neoprene socks from Northwest River Supply under them. In
>*cold* weather, I wear them over my sewn-in drysuit feet.
>
>Jon Beck, SoRReL Project GRA

	I prefer ALPS sandals, since they have adjustable plastic
buckles rather than Velcro.  The Velcro on my Tevas would give up when
they got covered in sand or mud (fills up the loops).  Also, the
Velcro will pull loose when you rub the foot against something, or
have to swim/wade strong currents.  Your mileage may vary.


-- 

Brad Whitehurst    |   Aerospace Research Lab
rbw3q@Virginia.EDU |   We like it hot...and fast.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: kgo@comm.wang.com (Kirk Olsen)
Subject: Re: hull designs
Organization: Wang Labs
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 14:20:42 GMT

In <3334@ra.nrl.navy.mil> schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette) writes:

>GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan) sez
>>Interesting... what would be the advantage of a concave surface in
>a kayak?  or do you mean the general cambre of the boat?  Aren't
>there also strict regulations as to hull surfacing, etc.?
>>

>There has been very little research done on long/thin hull designs.
>They are similar to the treaty cruisers of the 1920's wrt length:width
>ratios.  However, if you look at the bow designs of David Taylor (of
>model basin fame), in particular the bulbous/sea keeping bow of the
>super tankers and fast military vessels there are concave lines.  
>I'm not a naval architect, but to me it looks like another way to elminate
>turbulence/wake (which is energy not being used to go forward, but rather
>make turbulence).

Has anyone else read volume 2 of the "Occaisional notes of the Baidarka
Historical Society"?  Volume 2 is basically a single article discussing
kayak hull design.  It was written by George Dyson and is written to 
discuss the aleutian skin kayaks.  Included in the article are 
explanations of the bulbous/sea keeping bow, advantages of concave 
lines (in a verticle axis), and possible advantages of a flexible versus
a rigid frame.  What I found interesting is the use of all of these
features in a kayak.

-- 
Kirk                    WANG LABS                  kgo@comm.wang.com
(508)967-2076  in beautiful Lowell Massachusetts   uunet!comm.wang.com!kgo
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: lampi@polari.online.com
Subject: Re: flatwater kayaks - way different!
Summary: Guess I didn't do too badly after all :-)
Organization: R Squared, Redmond, WA (206) 883-3116
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 00:35:21 GMT

In article <3332@ra.nrl.navy.mil> schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette) writes:
>Flatwater kayaks and equipment are optimized for straightline competitions.
>There is only one stroke type in flatwater races and for a 1000m race
>...[much stuff about streamlining deleted]...

Well, then, I don't feel so bad about my times in the *100* meter traps
at Lake Siskiyou a week ago (38.6 sec.) compared to the times I saw posted
for men's singles canoes *500* meter races.

Of course, *my* canoe is a heavy Old Town plastic job, I'm suffering from
some sort of respiratory problem (hack  hack), and I haven't had much
exercise in the past couple of years.

However, those paddle wheels sure make a difference! :-)

-- 
-----
+-+  Michael Lampi       lampi@polari.online.com
|R|  R Squared           16398 NE 85th St., Suite 101, Redmond, WA 98052
+-+                      (206) 883-3116       fax (206) 883-2676
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: hudson@cs.umass.edu (Rick Hudson)
Subject: Monroe Bridge (Deerfield MA.) is running
Reply-To: hudson@cs.umass.edu
Organization: Dept of Comp and Info Sci, Univ of Mass (Amherst)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:23:07 GMT

New England Power (NEP) has started working on the canal so the the Monroe
Bridge section of the Deerfield will be running for the next few months. This
is not a joke, good summer paddling in New England, call the river phone
(413)625-8414 for more the next days level.  Last year the releases were 900
CFS.

A couple of requests fron FLOW who is negotiating with NEP so that we can have
releases after the FERC relicence is renewed.

Please come and enjoy the river but expect a lot of people. Last year we had
250 - 400 private boaters a day, add to this a similar number of rafters and
we have a crowded river that needs a lot of cooperation.

As of today FLOW will not be providing shuttles like we did last year so
please bring bikes or be prepared to "hitch" (and offer) a ride.  There seems
to be no way to park cars at the put in, NEP is doing construction nearby so
it will be congested. So folks should dress at Dunbar Brook, run their boats
and passengers up to the put in and return the cars to Dunbar Brook. The
drivers will then have to make their way back up to the put in. Hopefully,
folks running their shuttle will be able to offer rides.

If things go well and we have the Monroe Selectman supporting the releases,
we will have a stronger case in front of FERC.

The good news is that once the dam is completed (next year) there will be
parking near the dam as part of the FERC agreement. FLOW has discussed the
situation with the Monroe Selectman and NEP and indicated that the boaters
will cooperate until the dam is completed and the parking is provided.
See you on the river.

I now return you to your discussion concerning whether the Gauley is
class 5.... 
- Rick
--

                Richard L. Hudson, Research Associate
                University Computing Services
                Lederle Graduate Research Center
                University of Massachusetts
                Amherst, MA  01003
                (413) 545-1220; Hudson@cs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle