HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Hall of Fame voting (read - Disgusted)
Organization: Boo!  
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:05:03 GMT

In <1993Jan11.164722.27758@athena.mit.edu> frisch1@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Katz) writes:

>>Let's put it this way -- can you name a single pitcher as good as Niekro
>>who *isn't* in the Hall?
>>ted frank

>Well, just off the top of my head, how about Kaat.  I know he didn't reach the
>somewhat magical 300 wins, but he has 287 (anyone know if that's right?),
>and a much better ERA.

Kaat was an excellent pitcher, but not quite Hall of Fame quality.  Niekro,
on the other hand, was one of the 5 best pitchers of his era.
He was a dominant pitcher from 1967 thru 1979.
He pitched for bad teams in an extreme hitters' park, but it's silly to hold
those things against him.  Adjust his ERA for the parks he played in, and,
even when you include his last years, which were horrendous, he ends up way
high. From Total Baseball, these are park adjusted ERAs adjusted so that 100
is "average."

Seaver        127
Jenkins       115
Perry         117
Ryan (thru 88)111
Carlton       115
Gibson        127 
Niekro        115
Kaat          107
Palmer        125
Blyleven(to88)121
Marichal      122
John          111
RReuschelto88)115

Consider those numbers in the context of the length of careers, and Niekro
looks like he fits right in to the hall.  He certainly was not the equal
of Seaver, who combined both dominance and a long career of value in a way
equaled by no pitcher in the modern era.  And he certainly wasn't the
pitcher that, say, Gibson was at his best.  But Niekro was able to log a
huge number of innings at very good to great performance levels for a 
very long time.  And that combination gave him more career value than most
of the pitchers on this list.  And his peak value wasn't exactly poor,
either.

So Niekro fits in quite well.  And if you compare his best 10 years to these
other guys' best 10 years, he'd certainly end up looking better than
Perry or Jenkins.

Total Baseball, using Palmer/Thorn's Linear Weights method, rates Niekro
as the 16th best pitcher of all time.  I think that's a bit too high,
but certainly not wacky.

Greg 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: frisch1@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Katz)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 07:20:48 GMT

You think Fielder is barely above average!!!

I am a Mets fan, and I would love to see him on the Mets.  He is clearly an
impact player.  Better than Bonds, no.  But a star?, yes, definitely!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Klesko/Arizona League
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:49:42 GMT

In article <1icbnkINNa7t@menudo.uh.edu> chee1l5@Jane.UH.EDU writes:
>
>I read that Ryan Klesko was playing this winter in the Arizona League. He
>supposedly was tearing the league up with 11 homers in ~ 115 AB's and over
>a .600 slugging %.  The next closest HR total was 7. This certainly is
>promising news for Braves fans (who want him to spell Bream/Hunter), but does
>anyone know how competitive the league is and to what extent the stats are
>inflated ? I'm assuming the inflation factor is somewhere near the PCL since
>the article also gave the stats for some of the Braves top pitching 
>prospects (Donnie Elliot for one) and their ERA's were all in the 4-5 range.  
>
>I wasn't familiar with this winter league, is it new? Too new for MLE's ?
>
 From the 1991 stats, the competetive level is about the same as the
Northwest League or the New York-Penn league.

But since the offense is higher in the Arz. league, the deflation of
offensive statistics would be a little higher. A .330 EQA was needed
to equal an average major league hitter; that is roughly what edgar
Martinez had with the Mariners this past year. And that's just to
break even.

The problem for MLEs isn't the age of the league, but the play level.
James' MLEs are only used for AAA and AA; the Arizona league is low A
level. 

If you have the full stat line for him and the league I'll run it
through my MLE code. The lines you give sound consistent with his
career minor league totals.

Clay D.
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Date: 11 Jan 1993 08:14:47 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
NNTP-Posting-Host: carina.unm.edu

In article <1993Jan11.072048.3770@athena.mit.edu> frisch1@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Katz) writes:
>You think Fielder is barely above average!!!
>
>I am a Mets fan, and I would love to see him on the Mets.  He is clearly an
>impact player.  Better than Bonds, no.  But a star?, yes, definitely!

Lemme guess.  You're new here, right?

-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu * Walks: not that sexy.
"Halt!  Based on conclusive dental evidence that truly bites, I arrest you 
 hereby for the murdering of the dead Belzic Tascar.  I am obliged to warn you 
 that my weapons are registered as offensive fronds!!"- R.M.Allen, "Monkey See"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Darrell Evans
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 23:02:44 GMT

In article <8471@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu writes:
>What, you don't think Darrell Evans is a HOF player?  I'll agree that he's no
>Reggie Jackson, but he was a pretty darn good 3rd baseman.  Great power, great
>eye, average batting average, decent glove at a moderately difficult defensive
>position.  Who in his era, (early 70's through mid-80's at 3B), other than Mike
>Schmidt, was a better 3B?  

George Brett?  He's played full-time since 1974.  There's also Buddy Bell.

>I would argue that Darrell Evans has is more qualified for the HOF than Steve
>Garvey (to tie into this thread again.)  

I would tend to agree.  But neither should go in.

>Maybe Darrell and Ron Santo should go in together when the time comes.
>
>Anyone with the Baseball Encyclopedia want to post the stats for Darrell?

I don't, but here's the 1985 Abstract's Seasonal Notation line for Evans.
He played more than a few years after this, but mostly at first base or dh.

12.25 years, 551 AB, 139 H, 21 DB, 3 TP, 23 HR, 83 R, 79 RBI, 98 BB, 62 K,
	7 SB, 4 CS, 252/365/426.

A solid performer for a long period of time, probably a definition-C hall
of famer.  But he doesn't match up to many of the criteria mentioned by
James for a Hall of Famer.  Maybe he was the best player on his team for
a few of the worse teams he played for.  He was a good enough player to
continue playing well past his prime.  But he never came close to winning
an MVP, and he played in an era when there were a lot of good third basemen.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Expos Clinch! Wallach to Dodgers
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:31:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.150618.14604@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1993Jan3.213340.1957@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>>
>>>Have you forgotten the cut for the bookie?  It's rather significant...
>>
>>The bookie's cut has nothing to do with the posted odds.  You look at the
>>odds and you go one way or the other.  The bookies cut is irrelevant.
>
>Bullshit.
>
>>You aren't betting against the skew.  You pick the odds - one way or the 
>>other.
>>
>>How big is the skew anyway, Valentine?  You don't know do you?
>
>Well, I don't gamble, but they were explained to me once...  The
>betting lines look like 6-6 or 6.5-5.5 or something like that.  If a
>team is favored 6.5-5.5, then you need to bet $6.50 on the favored
>team to win $5, and $5.50 on the underdog to win $5.

...i had wanted to stay out of the Maynard flamathon (TM) but i just
wanted to correct this slightly: you bet $6.50 to win $5 on the favorite;
and $5 on the underdog to win $5.50. unless i too am wrong; which is
possible, i am not a gambler.

if the bookies' cut is so "irrelevant", why do you suppose the
bookies do so well? come on. the cut is quite significant.
and the bookies' ability to take all factors into account when scoping
a game is obvious when you look at point spreads in football -- very few
analysts, even those who do it for a living, do well against the spread.
many can't even break .500, which means a chimp could theoretically do better.
that doesn't mean the analysts know nothing; it means they are betting in
a skewed system against professional handicappers.

also, for baseball, 55% is good! this isn't football, where teams winning
55% of games don't make the playoffs.

look, i don't particularly like it when people over-subscribe to
statistics. but they can be valuable, especially for evaluating
performance. if one has an anti-statistic argument, one should be prepared
to back it up.

--
charles
From: stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu (Stephen Jascourt)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cecil an impact player  (was Re: Cecil signs)
Date: 12 Jan 93 04:03:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Meteorology and Space Science

Roger Lustig writes:
  In article <1993Jan11.072048.3770@athena.mit.edu> frisch1@athena.mit.edu (Jonath
  an Katz) writes:
  >You think Fielder is barely above average!!!

  >I am a Mets fan, and I would love to see him on the Mets.  He is clearly an
  >impact player.  Better than Bonds, no.  But a star?, yes, definitely!

  Being a star is nice, but being good is more important.  What impact would
  this impact player have?  A guy who makes close to 500 outs annually
  would be a disaster in the middle of the Met lineup--there are too
  many outs being made there already, and nothing worth mentioning
  in the 6-7-8 slots, either.   He wouldn't hit 40 HR in Shea; just
  what would he help with?


But, Roger, 500 outs in the middle of the lineup is indeed a major impact!
So Cecil is quite an impact player afterall. Just not the kind of impact
you want on your team. :)

Stephen Jascourt   stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:27:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.164717.29452@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:

>third, after the '91 season, when i believe Cecil was bitching about not
>being named MVP, i believe i saw one of the big baseball book people (i forget
>who) make a case that Devon White deserved the MVP more than Fielder
>based on overall contribution. it was quite interesting.
>(does anyone remember seeing this and exactly who it was and what they
>said?)

No, but I would have made the same assertion myself.  White, in '91, was,
what, ~5th best CF in baseball?  (Behind Kirby Puckett, Ken Griffey Jr.,
Brett Butler, and Andy Van Slyke, perhaps.)  There was no way that Fielder
was one of the top 5 1Bs in the league in '91.  Unless the CFs are really
closely bundled together, White would be naturally more valuable than Fielder
(not '92, though).

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:47:17 GMT

three comments on the Cecil controversy:

first, the lure of using HR and RBI to evaluate "stars"
is really strong. even as a big Jays fan, when i saw people
here say that Olerud was better than Fielder, my gut reaction (from
being brainwashed for many years) was "no way" (forgive me, Gord).
Fielder has all those home runs and RBIs! he's an MVP candidate!

so then i went and looked at the numbers. Olerud beats Fielder by 40 points
on AVG and 50 on OBA. but the slugging percentage really surprised me. they
are about the same! and Fielder's strikeout to walk ratio is over 2, while
Olerud's is less than 1.

partial theory for my "intuition":
each one of Fielder's HRs ends up in the highlight reel.
his 151 K's don't, and neither does Olerud's consistent, but unspectactular
(spectacular as in "spectacle") performance. not a major revelation to
anyone here, i'm sure.

second, regarding defence: i remember when Fielder was in Toronto, a lot
of people used to call him "Cecil Hitter". and that was what, 5 years
and 50 pounds ago?

third, after the '91 season, when i believe Cecil was bitching about not
being named MVP, i believe i saw one of the big baseball book people (i forget
who) make a case that Devon White deserved the MVP more than Fielder
based on overall contribution. it was quite interesting.
(does anyone remember seeing this and exactly who it was and what they
said?)

--
charles
From: mcgill@lds.loral.com (Chris McGill 5471)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Riots and Dodgers?
Date: 13 Jan 93 00:58:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Loral Data Systems

In article <76567@apple.apple.COM> spud@Apple.COM (Dave "Spud" Kalin) writes:
>>Last year (63-99) was worse than that.  
>>Winning pct. of .389 was the worst for the Dodgers since 1912.
>>Losses (99) was the most for the Dodgers since 1908.
>>Last place finish was the only time since 1905.
>
>
>This may seem like a foolish question, but it could be food for thought: Do
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, I'd have to agree with you there...
>you think there may have been some correlation between the LA riots and
>the LA Dodgers?  Now before you go flaming me, consider that the Dodgers had
>to reschedule a few home games early in the season; the extended road trip
>early on could have had an effect on morale, and the rest of the season.
>Also, people in LA may have had more important things on their mind than
>going to Dodger Stadium (near downtown, btw).
>
>Of course, this is all mere speculation.  Let me know what you think.
Spud, I sure hope this is supposed to be a joke, but I see no smiley's.
That is about the most preposterous thing I've seen in this group since
gaining access this month. If you think the riots were about baseball, I think
you been living inthe world of baseball too long. It's time to come back to
the real world and see the state of society today. I hope this does not come
off as too major a flame, but I was truly insulted by this question....
Peace...but probably NOT in our lifetime...
>
>-Spud
Chris...

-- 
Christopher S. McGill      | ....56F cleared 30R. Please expedite...BE
MCGILL@WORLD.SINET.SLB.COM |        ADVISED we have an MD88 on short final..
MCGILL@MAIL.LDS.LORAL.COM  |
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: SMOKING BANS at ballparks?
Date: 8 Jan 1993 18:39:06 GMT
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: taurus.meaddata.com

Today's paper reports that the Orioles have become the fifth major-league
team to ban smoking at their open-air stadiums.  Two questions:

1) What are the other four?
2) How effective has enforcement of this ban been?
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Doug Dickey, former University of Florida football coach, on why losing three
games in a season is better than losing one:
  "The fans talk about the games you won, following a 7-3 season.  When you
    go 9-1, they talk about the one you lost."

Xref: sparky rec.sport.baseball:37087 soc.women:22248 soc.men:22278
From: gwangung@byron.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Women Sports Reporters
Date: 6 Jan 1993 21:04:33 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: byron.u.washington.edu

In article <1993Jan6.094835.10639@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
>In article <1id41pINNsn5@shelley.u.washington.edu> gwangung@byron.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang) writes:
>)In article <1993Jan5.125130.24556@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
>)>Of course, there's lots of other possibilities here - it's really hard to
>)>say exactly what happened.  I was encouraged to read Aaron's report that
>)>both the law and propiety was served by creating an 'interview area'
>)>in the locker room, satisfying the agreements to have 'interviews in the
>)>locker room' while still giving the players some privacy.
>)	I take it this report was AFTER Wyche was flamed for unilaterly
>)barring women sports reporters, and altered his policy, right?
>Yes, not only was it after he was flamed for barring 'women reporters' (when
>he had actually banned *all* reporters),

	Really?

	Hmmmm....according to the news reports >I< have on record, he got
fined for specifically banning ONLY female reporters.

 it was apparently after some
>sort of determination that there was some sort of contractual right for the
>media to be in locker rooms.  (Why such a strange thing was signed, I sure
>don't know.

	Actually league policy as determined by Paul Tagliabue.

>I thought that the solution of constructing an interview room
>*in the locker room* to satisfy said contractual agreement and still give
>the atheletes some privacy was a stroke of genius.  YMMV.

	I don't have a problem with that.

	However, what Wyche was fined for was banning female reporters
and not male reporters.  This is NOT what is being claimed here.
-- 
	"I got into theatre originally to pick up girls. Unfortunately, all I
found were women..."
e-mail:  gwangung@u.washington.edu
From: jimbo@csusb
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Garvey and the HOF
Date: 9 Jan 93 00:39:13 GMT
Organization: California State University, San Bernardino
Nntp-Posting-User: jimbo

As someone who has lived in So. Cal since 1964, I have
seen a lot of Dodger games.  Though I'm not "True Blue"
[Tommy Lasagna Trademark (-: ], I have had respect for
the Dodgers.  Players such as Koufax, Drysdale, Sutton,
Lopes and Guerrero were players I rooted for.  But as
to Steve Garvey?  Nah!  An over-rated player if ever
such a thing existed.

His love affair with the L.A. press and fans is one
thing I could never understand.  Ok.  So he was easy to
interview and had time for signing autographs---that doesn't
grant him HOF status.  His range at first was limited, he
was afraid to throw the ball (heaven help him if he had to
make the routine 3-6-3 double play!) and when such stats were
kept, it turns out the Garv was a choke artist!  Year after
year he would lead the league in leaving runners on base.
Sure he had 100+ RBI's a couple of times, but the law of
averages had more to do with that than Garvey;  he simply
had an abundance of opportunities.

I have no problem with anyone who may be a fan of his.  He really
is a nice person.  The problem I have is with those who think
he his of HOF calibar.  Of course, I may be wrong.  It has happened
before.

Just my copule cents into the thread.  And if it ain't really
worth that much, sue me!

Tony Ardelean
Cal State University San Bernardino


As usual, all opines are my own, etc.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed)
Subject: Re: Lies about attendance (Was Speculation Of A Coming Orioles Sale)
Organization: Holos Software, Inc.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 18:09:13 GMT

In article <5JAN93.08181417@wums.wustl.edu> peirick_j@wums.wustl.edu writes:

>Well, you know, those would not be lies in St. Louis.  We have had declining
>attendance for three years now.  I am virtually certain that attendance was down
>in LA this year as well.  Others may chime in as they see fit.

Attendance *should* have been down in LA.  In 1991 they fought the Braves
in a truly great pennant race and lost by one game.  In 1992 they had one
the worst Dodger teams since the Stone Age.  Expect Dodger attendance to
be off again this year unless they recoup and start off hot.  This has
little to do with baseball-wide attendance trends, though.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Hall of Fame voting (read - Disgusted)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:12:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.164722.27758@athena.mit.edu> frisch1@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Katz) writes:

>>Let's put it this way -- can you name a single pitcher as good as Niekro
>>who *isn't* in the Hall?
>>ted frank

>Well, just off the top of my head, how about Kaat.  I know he didn't reach the
>somewhat magical 300 wins, but he has 287 (anyone know if that's right?),
>and a much better ERA.

You know, I don't want to flame too much, but you might want to check
things before you make stupid statements like this.

Kaat (who had 283 wins, actually) had an ERA of 3.45.
Niekro had an ERA of 3.35.

But thanks for playing.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | "We don't need anymore [sic] wretched refuse.  It's 
niepornt@phoenix.    |  time to send the Statue of Liberty somewhere else"
   princeton.edu     |      -- Jack "Not a bigot" Schmidling, 1/7/93
Baltimore Orioles 93 |
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary The Secret's In The Pesto Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Troy Neel and the ability to hit...
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:19:44 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Reviled By Buffoons , Ltd.

Why aren't the A's playing Troy Neel?  I realize he's old, but he's
got at least two MLB years in him of reasonable quality.  He destroyed
AAA (PCL) pitching last year, at age 27.  He hits for power, some
average, and, like everyone in the A's system, walks a considerable
amount.

He's not going to be a star - but he could take Harold Baines' job, 
couldn't he?

How about some Projections from someone with a handbook?  I believe
Troy is doing his customary massacre of winter ball pitching about
now.

I'd be surprised if he couldn't hit .240/.350/.440 in OAKLAND.  That's
a major league hitter.  Anyone who can provide more info, please do.

I really like his stroke.

(I'm trying desperately to make Kirsch's 'quotes out of context' .sig
series.)

"Seeking conservatives for longitudinal study in failure to deal with
 dissonant information.  Applicants must be politically conservative.
 Will pay $25 for three hours of survey taking." - PSC.


-- 
   Gary Huckabay    . "Promise me that when you're supreme ruler of the      .
 "Waiting for the   .  universe, you'll see that the adman who came up with  .
  Lance Smith Mr.   .  the 'Swedish Bikini Team' will grate cheese in Hell." .
 Peanut Miniseries.". "He'll assist Richard Simmons, Kath.  Go to sleep."    .
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball