HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Date: 16 Apr 92 00:40:20 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
 >Are
 >manga not stories told by a combination of words and (somewhat stylized) art,
 >where both components are essential to the story? If not, how? If so, they're
 >comics. 

This is a pretty good description of everything from Renaissance paintings
to Little Golden Books to cake mix instructions.  None of these are
ever described as "comics".

As I recently explained to someone, manga artists/writers no longer limit
themselves to the "n panels per page" medium,  and they now find themselves
as authors, illustrators, storyboarders, character designers, and directors,
the manga "styles" now utilising any medium from graphic int-fiction to
chip packets.

Since a discussion on a manga newsgroup would typically encompass
illustration, mythology, packaging design, and computer graphics, could
you fill us in on why it MUST be rec.arts.comics.manga?  Considering that
a newsgroup so named refers to manga which have been adapted as comics,
ie. an extremely small percentage of what is proposed for discussion in r.a.m.

 >Do you want to get flooded with "What's a manga?" postings?

I imagine the same mechanisms that stop soc.motss from heaving
under "what's a motss?" will suffice.

 >Sorry...the reason that new group proposals get discussed in news.groups is so
 >that the net as a whole, not just the fans of one particular thing, have the
 >option to discuss and vote. You're trying to disenfranchise non-manga fans,
 >and that's not how it works.

That's quite untrue.  My concern is simply that people be informed when they
cast their vote.

 >Bwahahahaha.
 >Imminent death of Usenet predicted.

No imminent death predicted here; just an observation that the more
times the newsgroup creation process screws up, the more likely Usenet
will undergo change.

Nobody defending r.a.m has a "bruised ego" or "an axe to grind".  We
want an accurate name for the group just as much as anyone, I can assure you.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: [flame] On those who run newgroup votes
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 08:04:22 GMT

atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Ran Atkinson) writes:

>The ongoing and increasing use of BIZARRE vote format restrictions as
>part of the voting process has gotten out of control.

Dude, like...chill out. Your flame stems from a BUG in my software which
came directly from my humanity. Thanks for reporting it, by the way.
Can you send me a copy of the message that broke it?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

       "When you are in it up to your ears, keep your mouth shut."  
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.sys.amiga.audio,comp.sys.amiga.graphics
Date:  9 Apr 92 02:13:33 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes:
 >The group is currently focused on American and British comics, but I
 >know of nothing in its charter that constrains it this way.

Well, that's certainly true.  But how often are charters respected?
How easy is it to change the content of a newsgroup once it's consumed
with a certain type of traffic?  (eg. alt.postmodern.)

 >Manga are
 >within its purview.  "Comics", as used in the newsgroup name, properly
 >covers all of the "sequential art forms" people have been discussing.

Rather like any film ever made, or Bosch's triptychs, all of which
are appropriately discussed in newsgroups which aren't subordinate
to rec.arts.comics.


 >My mind is always open.  That's why I'm continuing the discussion.

Excellent!


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: imcc@cs.strath.ac.uk (Iain McCord)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Conditionality in votes.
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:15:53 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dept., Strathclyde Univ., Scotland.


  There is a school of thought that when a group splits the original group
should have .misc added to its name.
  If this was an automatic function then there would be no problem, it'd
just be one of the facts of life on USENET.
  The main problem about renaming an existing group is the propogation of
that change across the net.  This could, in theory, cause a loss of some of
the traffic in the affected group until the changeover is complete.  I think
it's best to avoid a useless change.
  There are also situations where more than one group name has support.

  There seems to be a technicality in the guidelines that allows a vote taker
not to act upon a passing vote if it fails to meet some conditions that he
set out in the CFV. Thus a ballot of the form,
 
create foo.bar
create foo.bear
..
..

create foo.only   ONLY if one of the above passes

seems to be allowed.  I propose that this be restricted to cases where a 
heirachy is being formed, i.e. a set of groups related by subject matter.

I'd also suggest

create foo.bar
create foo.bear

With the rider that only the most popular of the two be used, i.e. as a way 
of deciding if a group should have a particular title, or if it should be
moderated or not.

  The modifications I propose be made to the guidelines are,

1> Each proposed change to a group ( rename, create etc ) be phrased
so that it can be voted on with a simple Yes, No or Abstain.
2> The minimal pass is 2:1 Yes:No split and Yes-No> 100.  The CFV 
can add further conditions to each vote. These must be clearly stated, and
a reason for them given.

-- 

		~~~~~/\~~~~~
Iain McCord	~~~~/()\~~~~	Thu Apr 16 19:15:52 WET DST 1992
		~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: sparky news.groups:10188 misc.jobs.misc:3485
From: masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola)
Newsgroups: news.groups,misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.jobs.offered reorganization
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:29:38 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:

>This RFD supercedes the previous issue, which did not address all of the
>proposed changes.

>REMOVE: misc.jobs.offered

>CREATE: misc.jobs.entry    = positions offered to entrylevel applicants
>        misc.jobs.expert   = positions offered to the experienced
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think the name here is a bit misleading; not all jobs for
experienced people are for "experts". For instance, suppose you have 8
years experience hacking C, and are applying for a job that requires
C++. While you wouldn't be an "expert" in C++, odds are that you could
pick it up quickly.

How about "misc.jobs.experienced"?

>        misc.jobs.recruit  = positions offered by recruitment agents
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

misc.jobs.recruit would be redundant. Let recruiters post their
articles to the appropriate group(s).

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND MODERATION of any job-offer groups to limit
"noise" postings, and will vote for creation of such groups ONLY if
they are moderated.


- Steve (masticol@cs.rutgers.edu).
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (The Napoleon of Crime)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Reply-To: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (The Napoleon of Crime)
Organization: The Institute for Criminal Science, Gizmonics Control
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 17:26:32 GMT

I would recommend against it at this time; I have seen almost no spill-over
of manga discussions into rec.arts.comics, which is where this would be
discussed in the usual Usenet heirarchy -- and this makes me suspicious of
the popularity of such a newsgroup.  I think you need to run a test on 
a fully-propogated rec. group first to see what amount of traffic you're
actually going to get.

Suggestion: try posting in rec.arts.comics with the keyword "MANGA: " at the
beginning of the subject line for a month or two, and we'll see how the
traffic stacks up to everything else there.

                           "You noticed that I didn't promise to cut your
                            taxes.  Of course I didn't. That would be stupid.
                            If I cut taxes, we'd go deeper into debt.  Then
                            I'd have to raise taxes to help cover the juice
                            we're paying on all that debt. Did you appreciate
                            my candor?  No, you'd rather have someone tell you
                            that he is going to make it possible for you to
                            buy three more Happy Meals at McDonald's and to
                            hell with the future."

                                           -- Mike Rokyo on Paul Tsongas'
                                              withdrawl from the
                                              presidential race
---
                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
INTERNET:     moriarty@tc.fluke.COM
Manual UUCP:  {uunet, uw-beaver, sun, microsoft}!fluke!moriarty
CREDO:        You gotta be Cruel to be Kind...
                 **>> Keep circulating the tapes <<**

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Subject: Re: straw poll: Alok bozo or not?
Reply-To: brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Organization: Space Systems/Loral
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 00:37:36 GMT

Your two choices should have been

   bozo-yes@ferrari.labs.tek.com
	  or
   bozo-yes@ferrari.labs.tek.com

Which would have helped the understanding of the hopelessly bewildered.

Vote Alok in '92... he's an honest politician!

--
HELP!! Somebody slapped a "stop payment" on my sanity check!!
brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com; Space Systems/Loral; Palo Alto, Calif.
Black Holes... the /dev/null of the Universe; the opinion of 65534.
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:51:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <a_rubin.703275824@dn66>, a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:
> In <1992Apr13.220740.3301@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
> 
> >If we consider that the vote never occured,
> >please explain to me: On what basis are the 48 % sites carrying SCIA ?
> 
> Because somebody sent out a newgroup, what other basis is needed?

Yes. The newgroup was sent out by David Lawrence, the moderator of 
news.announce.newgroups. He did it because there were no objections to
the vote records in the waiting period of the five days following the 
announcement of the final vote tally with voters names and votes.

If people failed to object to the vote tally in the specified period, they 
should have the grace to let it go now.

Perhaps I should not even conduct a revote straw poll.

> --
> Arthur L. Rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea

Alok
Xref: sparky news.groups:9986 rec.music.cd:3945 rec.music.misc:13991
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.cd,rec.music.misc
Subject: Re: RFD: removal of rec.music.cd
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:57:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbmvax.30249
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <92100.111057ICSAFF@ASUACAD.BITNET> ICSAFF@ASUACAD.BITNET (Allen French) writes:
> 
> In article <mvrj3kj@lynx.unm.edu>, lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) says:
> >
> >> Now that CD's have taken the world by storm the category really is
> >> 1) not needed, 2) too broad, or 3) needs to be subdivided into a more
> >> hierarchical order as many groups have done that have this much traffic.
> >
> >The only really interesting suggestion I've seen about what to do with
> >r.m.cd is to rename it to rec.collecting.cd.  For what I use r.m.cd for,
> >that would *almost* fit.  rec.music.cd-collectors would just about nail it.
> >
> Well, there seems to be at least two distinct camps of thought: those who
> think r.m.cd is serving a good purpose as it is, and those who think it
> is worthless as it now exists.

There are two other distinct groups that add to the confusion of the
agruments on the subject:

1) those who belive that rec.music.cd is being misused by people who
   think the volume is too large in rec.music.misc and think rec.music.cd
   is a quiet version of r.m.m.

2) those who oppose further subdivison of rec.music.misc because they
   want to find all "realated" music covered in one place, or because they
   are concerned that finding politically correct labels/subdivisions for
   things like "alternative", "pop" and "new age" is impossible and fate
   holes nothing but arguments over mis-postings, and cross-postings.

My personal belief is that rec.music.cd is pretty much OK, but some of the
traffic needs to find better homes, for instance rec.music.market.

I think it's about time to quit bitching about removing a "successful"
group and think about reasonably *effective* subdivisions of rec.music.misc.

As far as the catagory 2 folks above, please note that they represent only
a small, but vocal, minority.  Any reasonably well thought out subdivision
scheme will pass anyway, sorry guys.

It would also (hopefully) minimze the spawning of minor spliter groups
like rec.music.enya with fuzzy charters such as "music like Enya".

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
but no way officially representing:   domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
Commodore, Engineering Department     phone:  215-431-9349 (only by moonlite)
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 10 Apr 92 14:18:44 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <31506@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, eho@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Eamon  ) writes:
>With that analogy, would we place judo under boxing?  So we should place them
>under Martial arts, or by analogy, rec.arts.  

No, you place it under martial-arts, by analogy .COMICS!

If r.a.comics sprouts another special interest group then it is time to
move it to .misc.  You could even propose it as part of your own RFD,
there is nothing sacred about the group, it just hasn't been renamed to
bring it into line with the newer conventions that recent re-orgs have
followed.

All anyone is asking is that you follow the bloody conventions, if
rec.arts.comics needs to be renamed, include it in the bloody discussion
and do the job right, don't just claim a bogus spot in the existing
heirarchy that suits your own notions of "equality" with .comics and
then flame people who think that's stupid.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Lop-Sided NO Votes (Re: RFD: rec.music.enya)
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 01:36:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.154401.6252@cbnews.cb.att.com> nrc@cbnews.cb.att.com (N. Richard Caldwell) writes:

>Warm up your NO votes, folks.  Let's set a record for lop-sided NO
>results.

What is the record for this, incidentally?  The most extreme example I
can think of was soc.bi, which passed 350:50 or something like that.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi
From: limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:07:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: vms2.7APR199215070516
Organization: National University of Singapore Dept. of Computer Sc.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <-spj86q@lynx.unm.edu>, lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes...
>axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>"Sequential art" is the working definition for the entire rec.arts.comics
>subheirarchy.  Could you please explain to me why manga should be exempt from
>this? 

This has been explained in many ways by many people. Manga is sequential art.
But r.a.c is devoted to the discussion of Western comics.

>"Wrong" yourself.  The name rec.arts.comics.manga does not imply *any such
>thing*.  You are betraying a fundamental lack of understanding about why
>there is a classification system to begin with, and are imposing your own
>prejudices against Western comics to boot.

I do not know about the original poster's prejudices, but speaking from
the viewpoint of one who reads both Western comics and manga, I do find
placing manga under r.a.c inappropriate. I have no wish of repeating the
same argument everytime. Read ur old msgs if u r interested.

>I have yet to hear one convincing argument why manga
>should get their own subhierarchy rise above the resounding chorus of
>"Becaaaauuuuuuse!" that continues to come from the manga fans.   

Perhaps it is because u don't listen? And might I suggest that it might
be because of your own prejudices?

>Hooey.  It would be make a little more obvious *sense* if rec.arts.comics
>were renamed rec.arts.comics.misc, but it wouldn't change the meaning of
>the group's location any.

This statement makes remarkably little sense, esp after ur emphasis on
hierarchies.

>> The people who will post to the new group want it to be rec.arts.manga;
>> the people who won't want it to be rec.arts.comics.manga. 
>Stupid assumption; I'd subscribe to rec.arts.comics.manga the day it was
>created here, and I'm the person arguing loudest for its creation under
>rec.arts.comics.

An assumption that may not be entirely valid, of course. However, I believe
that the majority of manga fans (and thus subscribers of the newsgroup)
would prefer the rec.arts.manga newsgroup, because of the existing
hierarchy of the newsgroup. I do not deny that there is an ego element
behind the move, but nothing says that the two are mutually exclusive.
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:32:40 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <1992Apr9.192410.3854@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU writes:
>
>Was written...
>>> The _charter_ for this group refers to manga as a type of comic book.
>>> By accepting this charter proposal the supporters of the group are
>>> telling us (the uninformed) that manga are comics. 
>
>Was also writen (in response to what was written)...
>> To the best of my knowledge, it is the only way to make the proposal
>> understandable by you (the uninformed). 
>
>This is the most bizarre thing I have read since Alok's last tirade.
>
>'The uninformed,' how nice. How condecending. Why should I vote for a
>group that can't even be described by its supporters in a
>non-contradictory way?
>
>I understand allright. The only way that rec.arts.manga supporters can
>describe manga is by calling it a comic. Well, I got news for you, if 'the
>informed' call it a comic then as one of the 'uninformed' I am going to
>call it a comic as well. 

I am not going the defend the use of "uninformed" but I have to point out
one thing:  Should the RFD have said:  .....manga....manga....manga...
    
and have no references to comics?  Seriously, that would have left me
confused if I never heard of the term before.  (But what do I know
since I am a "non-native" and knows squat about English... according 
to Lazlo).  It might have come out wrong when expaining the reasoning
behind the use of the word "comics" but the original intent was to
be helpful and to ease this process.  Is that condescending?

>
>And if it is a comic it belongs in a rec.arts.comics.* hierarchy along
>with the rest of the comics discussion.
>Prove that it manga does not = comic or change the RFD.

This burden of proof idea was also discussed in a previous post.
Yes, we have more of the burden, but not all.

>
>And someone start a new complaint about this group or I'll have to repeat
>myself a third time.
>

I don't know about you, but I think we're all tired of repeating ourselves.


--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
From: wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Benjamin Wai)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga...etc.....
Date: 9 Apr 92 19:16:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.44637
Reply-To: wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Benjamin Wai)
Organization: Purdue Animation Club, Purdue University

In article <30rjrhf@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang) writes:
>> Maybe I got it wrong, but the discussion over "rec.arts.comics.manga"
>> seemed to have created a thought of "rec.arts.anime.animation" in my
>> mind.  If it should be rec.arts.comics.manga, then why was it not
>> rec.arts.anime.animation for the animation newsgroup?  It did came after
>> the anime newsgroup in terms of charter time. 
>
>Where groups belong is not based on where they should be created.  Anime
>is a type of animation, so it belongs under rec.arts.animation.  Manga are
>a type of comics, so it belongs under rec.arts.comics.
>
>This has been explained several times already.  You might consider
>paying attention this time.
>

	Just a moment of thought...
	Should the comics newsgroup be Rec.arts.books.comics anyway?
	Comics ARE books, aren't they? Eh?



>--
>Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
>
>"Sailboats of ice on desert sand"


	P/S: Probably I've got a few individuals at this very moment to cover 
	     their ears (or eyes) and scream, "What nonsense is this?!?"
	     



--

	=> Rec.arts.Manga !!!


---
  *- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -*
 /           Benjamin Wai         \\        < wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu >     \
(         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~       \\        < wai@cn.ecn.purdue.edu >     )
 \ - - *   Purdue University   * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - /
  * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gritton@alaska.caedm.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton)
Subject: Re: No New Enya News Group!!
Lines: 10
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 19:58:39 MDT
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA
	<1992Apr7.015308.5737@bsu-ucs.uucp>
	<1992Apr7.232621.7778@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
	<1992Apr8.211041.5634@resonex.com> <H.CSSIm8omdxU@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca>
Reply-To: gritton@byu.edu

jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) writes:

>    I know this isn't how you meant it, but the way I read this, I 
>think the time has come to post an RFD for rmgrouping John Palmer.
>While we're at it, let's rmgroup Bruce Becker, too. 
>;-)

Nah, he'd just auto-newgroup himself again.
--
James Gritton - gritton@byu.edu - I disclaim
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 20:03:24 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.215632.3457@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>Interesting point. I wonder how easy it is to check for forged votes?

Here's an idea: ask them!  If your return mail bounces, or they say "I
don't know what you're talking about," obviously it was a forgery.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi