HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 03:05:24 GMT

>Jeff, the same can be said about any class of people.  Does this give the
>BSA permission now to exclude black people, jewish people, and people who
>wear black on their fingernails?  I mean, if I was a parent, and I didn'
>think it was right for MY child to associate with all of those disgusting
>japanese freaks (wording used for sarcastic emphasis only, and not
>indicative of my actual feelings!), is it my "right" to expect BSA to
>exclude people of Japanese descent, for the "best of my children"?  Do you
>see just how specious and irrelevant this argument is?

I see that in the two days that I hadn't logged in, this discussion
is still raging on rec.scouting.  Nothing new has been said, but the
BSA detractors still insist on misusing this newsgroup for their
own private agenda.

This equating of homosexuality with legitimate minority groups is by
no means a "fact", but rather is simply part of the gay rights agenda
(and like everything else about this discussion, this has also been
said already).  Unlike legitimate minorities, a person's sexual
behavior, as well as such other anti-societal behavior such as
commune living, drug usage, or religious cult membership, is a
person's choice.  A person whose ancestors are from Japan or
Africa didn't have a choice.

I think I speak for a number of parents who feel, plain and simple,
that we would be totally derelict in our responsibilities if we allow
any adult in a position of leadership over our children to express or
imply, in any way, that deviant sexual behavior (as defined by our
society's standards) is "acceptable" or "proper" if that's the way
the child "feels".  Despite our best efforts as parents, it may happen
that our children do choose a sexually deviant lifestyle, or some other
abhorent lifestyle (such as entering into a marriage that's forbidden
by the child's religion), but under no circumstances will I allow
any adult leader to give any sort of impression to my children that
such a lifestyle is "ok".  This is the bottom line of this BSA issue,
and I'm very sorry that it conflicts with the gay rights agenda, but
I'm also sure it conflicts with the NMBLA agenda and with the agenda
of religious proseletyzers; so what?


-- 
Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
From: dpfabie@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David Paul Fabie)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Ben Love
Summary: Chief Scout Exec Retiring 1/93
Date: 1 Sep 92 01:03:29 GMT
Distribution: rec.scouting
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

For those who have not heard, at the "Top Hands" conference in Florida,
last Friday, Chief Scout Executive Ben Love, announced that he will
retire in January.

No reason was given.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Paul Fabie                   * "Remember! Editors never reject.  We
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee  *  merely select." - David Kirby
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: jhansen@convex.com (James Hansen)
Subject: Re: Heredity of homosexuality
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:29:27 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Mark Gansle writes:

>And therein lies the difference between racism and discrimination
>against homosexuals.  One is proven to be hereditary and so cannot be
>changed and is not a subject for ridicule.  The other seems very likely
>to be a personal choice, and like all personal choices, is subject to
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                 
>judgment.
 ^^^^^^^^
If it were a personal choice as you choose to believe, what business
is it of the government to legislate against it?  And whose judgement?
Yours?  The government's?  God's?

Discrimination against someone because of a trait, characteristic, or
sexual orientation/preference relative to job performance, housing,
and medical care, is wrong, no matter how you look at it.

--
James B. Hansen                                  {sun,uunet}!convex!jhansen
CONVEX Computer Corporation                              jhansen@convex.com
3000 Waterview Parkway, P. O. Box 833851
Richardson, TX 75083-3851                              Phone: (214)497-4802
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Auto-trol Technology Corporation -- Denver, Colorado
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 03:30:27 GMT

Karen Hill, you are an immoral, ignorant bigot. Your immoral, ignorant
bigotry hurts children.


Kathy
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: thom@access.digex.com (The Elf-Lad)
Subject: Re: Heredity of homosexuality
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:54:27 GMT

zeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Mark Gansle) writes:

>I think what Jeff was saying was that a gene for homosexuality must
>necessarily be evolutionarily disadvantageous.  Women and men who had no

So? Ever hear of recessives? As long as my siblings breed, I don't
need to; my genes can still be passed on. Cystic fibrosis is hereditary;
most people who get it die before they have children. But it's still
passed on by their parents and their siblings.

(This is not to say that I necessarily believe homosexuality is
hereditary, but it isn't impossible)

>There is in fact little evidence to support the idea that homosexuality
>is hereditary ("nature made me this way").  The best anyone can come up

>And therein lies the difference between racism and discrimination
>against homosexuals.  One is proven to be hereditary and so cannot be
>changed and is not a subject for ridicule.  The other seems very likely
>to be a personal choice, and like all personal choices, is subject to 
>judgment.

Even if it is not strictly heritable, it does not logically follow
that homosexuality is a personal choice. There are many other biological
possibilities that do not preclude having no choice. 

Besides, why not believe homosexuals? I didn't choose to be gay. I've
been gay since my earliest memories, though. If you're not gay, how
do you know if it's a choice or not?

In any event, the belief that any personal choice, particularly if it
doesn't have any bearing on you, should be subject to your judgment 
is awfully presumptuous. Don't you have better things to do than worry
about the choices other people make in their own bedrooms?




-- 
Thom Watson, the Elf-Lad         elf-lad@access.digex.com <-----preferred
                                 elf-lad@aol.com         elflad0@glib.org
                                 thom.watson@p924.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org
                                 GEmail=T.WATSON7
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: brick@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (robert.p.stawicki)
Subject: Re: What's the role of the Pack Committee Chair vs. Cubmaster
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 16:21:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.133921.4792@linus.mitre.org> edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit) writes:
>I am curious how different packs split the work between the committee
>chair and the cubmaster.  I was just "promoted" to cubmaster, and the
>formerly ineffective cubmaster has moved into committee chair as a
>"temporary".  
>
>My first concern is to rebuild pack leadership.  This is especially
>important as the pack has not recovered from the loss of the old pack
>leadership of 1.5 yrs ago and I'll be moving up to Boy Scouts in
>March.  I'd hate to see the pack fall apart.
>
>Jeff Edelheit		email:  edelheit@mitre.org
>The MITRE Corporation	voice:  (703) 883-7586
>7525 Colshire Drive	FAX:	(703) 883-1397
>McLean, VA   22102

Hi Jeff,

Hope this helps somewhat.  I am Cubmaster of 135 boys, my Committee 
Chair was one of my Webelos Leaders.  We split up the work close to
what follows:  I handle the internal Pack policies, training needs,
den assignments, den problems, etc.  All are concerned with the 
Pack membership.  My CC deals with outside events, e.g training
courses, Council and District events and happenings.  We both set up 
the Pack calendar (I know that we should have a committee do this,
but fewer is faster for this meeting), and the programs initially.
At our first Committee/Leaders meeting all is outlined and discussed
with the other members of the Leadership and if needed, changes are made.

I do not have seperate committee and leaders meetings.  My experience
has been that everyone has input.  In this manner, all of the members
of the Leadership feel important, and no one is told what to do.

As far as rebuilding your Leadership, go to the parents and explain
the problem.  You may find some willing to help.

Yours in Scouting,

Rob Stawicki
Cubmaster Pack 38
Running Water District
Jersey Shore Council
Brick, NJ

>>>>>>> r.p.stawicki@att.com  <<<<<<
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: eam@phx.mcd.mot.com (Ed Mohrman)
Subject: Definition of "Scouting Spirit"
Keywords: Scouting Spirit Scoutmaster Conference
Organization: Motorola Computer Group, Tempe, Az.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:21:39 GMT

As Scoutmaster for 5 years, I have been in the position many time of 
signing off for the requirement for "Scouting Spirit". 
I have made various judgements about a boys
growth, attendance at meetings and campouts, his behavior, etc. If a boy
deserved praise, I gave it. If he needed "an attitude correction", I tried to
administer it. But, I have never refused to approve the "Scouting Spirit"
requirement.

I can find nothing in the Scoutmaster handbook or the Scout Handbook that
helps define criteria for meeting the "Scouting Spirit" requirment. I do
not recall anything taught in Woodbadge or Adult Leader Training on this issue.
I do recall one comment that an Eagle Board of Review once gave an additional
assignment to a boy who met all the requirements, but was known to be into
some bad behaviors outside of scouting (drugs or alcohol?).

During our troop adult leader meeting, we reviewed this issue and 
established some concrete criteria. We set:

1) Attend at least 50% of the regular meetings
2) Attend at lest 50% of the troop outings
3) Display a positive attitude toward others
4) Boys holding leadership positions should be fulfilling their duties
5) Participate in a t lest one service project per year
6) Pay their dues

1-3 are expected from all, 2 or more from 4-6 are expected.

There is some flex in this list, but I am expected to not drift far from 
this list when I approve "Scouting Spirit".

I wonder what other units are doing on this? I want to make Scout rank a
credible achievement. At the same time, I dont want my unit to be 
significantly harder than other BSA units.

Any input would be welcomed.

Ed Mohrman    Mgr - SW Engineering    | Usenet:    uunet!unisoft!mcdphx!eam
Motorola MCG/Core Technology M/S DW220| Internet:  eam@phx.mcd.mot.com
Scoutmaster - Troop 280 Theodore Roosevelt Council
Woodbadge 4-10-1-89

Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: mayne@pipe.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 19:14:29 GMT

In article <jhansen.714756271@convex.convex.com> jhansen@convex.com (James Hansen) writes:
>
>Most parents haven't any idea that they are raising a gay child until
>the child drops the bomb on them one day.  Most children are taught to
>hate and react negatively toward anyone that is gay by their parents,
>church, and society around them.  Can you imagine what this does to a
>gay child?  It's nothing more than child abuse and the parents haven't
>a clue that they are doing it.  It results in a higher than average
>rate of suicide among gay teens too.

As a formerly closeted atheist child in a Xian family I can sympathize
with this. Sunday school qualified as child abuse, too. Happily for me
scouting was not dominated by the religious right when I was in it
and it was one of the more open and accepting groups. I was at an
extreme disadvantage growing up in a Church of Christ home. It was
partly through scouting that I came into contact with more liberal
views and learned to accept Catholics, Mormons, etc. as decent people.
It was only a small step to include non-Christian religions and atheists.
This is all implied in the fine words about brotherhood in the Scout
Handbook. Too bad the national leadership, and the most vehement "real
scouts" on the net don't appear to read their own book.

>Having tolerant parents and a positive role model for a gay child would
>do wonders for the childs self-esteem and self-worth.  This child would
>grow to be a better adjusted adult, simply because he has grown up knowing
>he is a person of worth, instead of a pervert and someone that isn't to
>be trusted morally.

The same goes for atheists. The BSA's policies of exclusion do a lot of
harm, not only to the targets but to the boys, like the ones in the
Randall's pack, who learn the message of hate. This can't be helped in
right wing churches, but is unnecessary in scouting, as the example of
scouting in places like Finland shows.

Bill Mayne
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2626 alt.discrimination:4015 chi.general:879 alt.atheism:16031 alt.politics.homosexuality:5563
From: kenk@sdc.com (Ken Konecki)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:03:56 GMT
Distribution: chi
Organization: Systems Development Corporation

In article <minor.714773387@coal8> minor@rtsg.mot.com (Kevin Minor) writes:
>Not supporting it directly still means you support it indirectly 
>through their non-profit tax status.

That's a big misconception.  Your tax bill doesn't go up every time a
non-profit organization is created.  Perhaps my tax bill would be lower if
there were no tax breaks for non-profit organizations (har har), but by
the same token, perhaps my grocery bill would be lower if there wasn't any
shoplifting.  Saying I support an organization because of its non-profit
status is the same as saying I support shoplifting by buying groceries.
It just isn't so.

Cheers,
    -Ken K
-- 
Ken Konecki
e-mail:kenk@sdc.com    -or-    ...!uunet!tellab5!sdc!kenk
"I just found out that the brain is like a computer.  If that's true,
then there really aren't any stupid people.  Just people running DOS."
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:41:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: wam.1992Sep4.194122.15732
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

This articles of mine should ahve being posted in alt.politics.homosexuality, 
and not here.
Sorry,
AAP
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2611 alt.discrimination:4007 chi.general:871 alt.atheism:15990 alt.politics.homosexuality:5551
From: gascan@dcst16.dc (Bill Gascoyne)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:08:21 GMT
Reply-To: gascan@dcst16.dc
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation

For those of you reading this someplace other than rec.scouting, please note that
of the 21 posts I found today, ONE dealt with something other than this or a related
thread.  This is not what I try to read this group for, and think I'm going to 
unsubscribe for awhile and see if everyone whom you all have chased off (intentionally
or not) comes back, and we can find each other in the midst of all these other posts
to talk about all of the other aspects of actually running a Scout troop.

Regretably, good-bye for now!

---
1. Bill Gascoyne
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: wjh0265@tamsun.tamu.edu (William Hobson)
Subject: What's the use in having this group???
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:37:58 GMT

I thought that this group might get useful after the BSA flame wars died down.
This week my KILL file has left me with nothing to read - everything posted
was stuff I already put in my KILL file.  A special interest group has ruined
this group for those of us who still feel that homosexuality is immoral.  I
guess that it is about time to impose the ultimate kill file - unsubscribe,
unless we can get another group started that isn't taken over and ruined by
special interest groups.
From: st1lv@jane.uh.edu (McLeod, Stephen)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:12:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: jane.4SEP199213124411
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <10303@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes...
>In article <hill.715462676@galena12> hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
>>
>>Certainly true. Any behavior can be learned or unlearned. Homosexuality is
>>a behavior and can be unlearned as well as learned. 
> 
>  Let's assume for a minute, Karen, that you dislike Brocolli.
>  Please explain to me, in no unclear terms, how you could learn to
>  like Brocolli.  Once you have accomplished this, you may extend
>  your argument to homosexuality.  
> 
As I have been told by my Oriental friends on numerous occasions, this is
not easy but it is common practice among them.  They find out that a food
is good for them and then they just start eating it until they develop
a taste for it.A good example would be 'bitter melon.'  I'm not particularly
disputing your point on developing a taste for females but your analogy
has been shown to be false in the real world.  Personally, I think 
homosexuality is partially genetic and partially environmental.

---
Stephen McLeod         Man.. chemo really is starting to suck.
The Eternal? Student
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:37:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.153206.24023@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>Using simple substitution on Stan Krieger's remarks, I get:
>
{substituted paragraphs deleted}
>
>(end of substitution)
>
>Would someone like to explain how this differs in any logical fashion
>from Stan's argument?  It's clearly as persuasive--millions died from
>such rhetoric, and Jews above all others should recognize it as the
>hate-mongering that it is.
>

This differs from his argument just because he was not saying it. 
He has used a particular forM of exprerssion to show his point. It does
not mean that he would use the same kind of expression to show another
point. So, you should refer to what he is saying and prove that wrong and
not chage what he is saying, because you do not know if that is what he is
trying to say.
In this particular case, the flaw in the logic is clear: He is talking about
homosexuality which is not a religion, and you are talking about Judaism,
which is a religion. And, the difference in logic is given by the different v
views that society has about religion and homosexuality.
What he IS showing here is a particular point of view that some members of our
society have about homosexuality, which is in no way related to their view
about religion. 



>
>Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
>--
>"IQ describes how big your gas tank is, but it doesn't tell if you're
>running on empty." -- Harvey Newstrom (hnewstro@x102c.ess.harris.com)

AAP

Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 17:03:08 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Aug21.134007.17942@spdc.ti.com> achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.110428.10268@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>>
>>Is it possible to create a policy that supports discrimination of
>>atheists and gays but excludes discrimination of Jews and
>>African-Americans? If not, should the BSA be excluded or should the
>>KKK be included?
>>
>
>I don't understand the objection to any private group using any criteria 
>whatsoever for membership. If you don't like it, don't support it, but
>freedom for all includes freedom for those you loathe. As long as they 
>aren't supported by your tax dollars. BSA has the same standards they 
>have had for something like ninety years. They have done far more good
>than harm. I think your energies would be better spent in other directions.
>I spent four years in the Boy Scouts. The religious aspects had no meaning
>to me, and were easily ignored. At the age of 12-14, I don't believe sexual
>preferences are even obvious, let alone relevant. As far as discrimination
>against Jews and blacks, this is a worldwide organization represented by 
>people of all races, religions, and nationalities. 
>  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are too few good
>influences on young people today.
>
>Jeff Achenbach
>achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com
>
Ah, but it is supported by my tax dollars.  Or I'm very much mistaken by
the hundreds and thousands of pounds of government foods and supplies 
"donated" by the government to the camp I worked at for three and a 1/2
summers.  The other point is also how can an organization tell people 
to 
be honest ant then discriminate when people are truthful about their
sexual oreintation?  That's something I don't understand.  The BSA has
gotten rid of many good people throught this.  How can it be "right."
You are right, don't throw out the baby.  But some of us babies have
been tossed out with no more than an get out by sundown. (Literally).
The issue is to communicate and come to an understanding.  People 
on both sides need to realize this.  
WWW
DOminick V. Zurlo
former Lodge Chief, Meechgalanne Lodge, Essex Council, NJ
Eagle Scout
>