From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Keywords: Greeks race Cramer foolishness
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:37:06 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Aug28.051513.17019@cheshire.oxy.edu>, rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney) writes:
> In article <11913@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> >In article <1992Aug26.081738.12086@cheshire.oxy.edu>, rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney) writes:
> >> In article <11888@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# ## #How many nonwhite ancient Greeks were there, by the way?  Greeks are
# ## #a people of indisputably white race. 
# ##  
# ## 	When was the last time you saw Herodotos in the flesh, eh,
# ## Clayton?  Did he seem "indisputably white"?  There's little ethno-      
# #
# #Sorry, I'll just ignore all the statutes left from the classical
# #civilization.
# 
# 	Did you see the statues when they had paint on them?  Are the
# features indisputably white?  What about those Roman noses?  Can you
# be sure, Clayton?  Gasp -- wh-what if...they weren't???

They are clear enough to me.

# ## archaeological evidence as to the "color" of the ancient Hellenes.
# ## They were probably about as "white" as similar east Mediterranean
# ## peoples, i.e., definitely non-Germano-Scandinavian.  Or were they
# ## mixed?  Perhaps "colored"?  Those from Asia Minor, "Asian"?  How
# ## indisputable, whiteness? 
# #
# #East Mediterranean peoples are definitely white, asshole.  So are
# #Asian Minor people, asshole.
# 
# 	The Turks are flattered, I'm sure.  So am I, since by these
# qualifications I might pass for "definitely white".  Your broad-mindedness

Fine.  Back when I hunted heads for a living, an applicant came in,
and I found a perfect position for him.  Absolutely perfect match
in every respect.  He was a little too shy to interview really
well, but he had EXCELLENT references.

The problem was that the employer could only hire him if we was a 
minority, and I COULDN'T TELL!  I had to call him up and say, 
"Are you black?" after explaining why I was having to ask.  He 
was sufficiently light-skinned, and his features and
hair characteristics were such that I thought he might be of
Italian or Greek ancestry.  He was cool about the whole thing,
explained his mother was black, and so he guessed he could be
considered black as well.  He got the interview, got the job
offer, and he took the job.  Everyone is happy.  I DON'T CARE 
ABOUT YOUR RACE!  DO YOU UNDERSTAND?  JUST BECAUSE I'M WHITE
DOESN'T MEAN I'M A RACIST!

# is noted and appreciated.  Trouble is, why bother with such categories?

Because Michelle Manes thought it was a big deal that had to be
bothered with.

# ## #Maybe I'm just a narrow-minded sort, but unless a writer makes a point
# ## #of telling me his race or gender, and that it has some significance to 
# ## #what he is writing about (e.g., Shelby Steele's _The Content of our 
# ## #Character_), I don't see much point to classifying the author by race 
# ## #or gender.
# ## 
# ## 	So the fact that women and minorities make up a marginal,     
# ## highly disproportionate fraction of the U.S. Congress is irrelevant?
# #
# #Yup.  Irrelevant.  Whether a Congresscritter is white, black, male,
# #female, whatever, is irrelevant.  Hell, I'm no liberal, I vote for
# #what a person based on what they say, not how they look.
# 
# 	I see.  So the fact that there were no blacks in Congress in
# the early parts of this century, when there had been blacks in Congress
# previously and they could still legally run for office -- that was
# irrelevant too, I guess?

I know why that was true -- probably in far more detail than you
do.  It was because of people like you (well, almost like you), 
insisting that race was an important issue that had to be duly
noted, recorded, and acted upon.

# ## You miss the intention of the original posters.  They were attempting
# ## to detect the disproportionately small numbers of minorities in the
# ## traditional canon of so-called great literature.  Do you get the point?
# ## Or have non-whites simply not produced any "great works" worthy of the
# ## canon?
# #
# #The literary canon is definitely cultural in nature.  I would agree
# #that there is doubtless some very fine literature produced by 
# #non-Europeans.  _Things Fall Apart_ by the Nigerian writer is
# #pretty impressive.  But until very recently, the non-European
# #cultures have had little impact on our culture (outside of the
# #area of religion).  Americans are not all that well represented
# #in the literary canon.  Big deal.  Until recently, we were a
# #remote outpost of European civilization (and some will doubtless
# #argue that we still are).
# 
# 	Your appreciation of Chinua Achebe is very big-minded of
# you, Clayton.  But pause for a moment to consider why it is that
# non-European cultures haven't had impact on European or U.S. culture,
# in spite of the world-wide presence of Europeans and Americans.
# It wouldn't have anything to do with having the bigger guns, would
# it?  
# 
# 	Nah.  They just can't write great books.

It has a lot to do with both colonialism, and the absence of
written languages in some parts of the world.  It also has something
to do with the differing cultural expressions.  The novel is not
exclusively Western, but many African cultures have long put more
emphasis on oral tradition (as did the West, until the printing
press started to eliminate the troubadour tradition).

# #You know, rec.arts.books (perhaps because it's dominated by
# #liberals) has among the least polite jerks anywhere on USENET.
# 
# 	Extending politeness to fatuous homophobes still eludes me, alas.
# 
# Michael S. Rooney

Oh, we're getting to the root of your problem.  You're a homosexual.
I guess I'm not surprised at your lack of manners, knowledge, and
intelligence.

That I disapprove of homosexuality has nothing to do with race,
asshole.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.