From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: Favorite Bible Verses
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:10:35 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.172921.10404@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
>> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>} (James Meritt) writes...
>}> (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>}>}>Paul a deciple of Christ said
>}>}
>}>}Sorry Chris, I have to go against you on this one.  Paul may have
>}>}called himself a disciple of Christ, but he never even met Christ
>}>}much less studied under him.
>}> 
>}>Good try.  The claim is that Saul met him on the road to the D place.
>}
>}A vision, I'm sorry but anybody can claim a vision, look at the
>}Virgin Mary thing in Kentucky! 
>
>Can, and do.  Hence religion.
>
>}Whether this is true or not is immaterial.  Just because I meet
>}you on a road, does that make me capable of carrying out your
>}teachings to others.  ***NOT!***

I think this misses the whole point of gnostic belief. If you can't 
be one of the disciples of Jesus, you can still experience his gnosis.
This forms the basis of the Pauline (AKA Christian) church's authority.

>Didn't say met him.  Said _CLAIM_ was that had met him.  Two different
>things.

I think the last post I made to this effect was misinterpreted, but I'll
try again. Regardless of "claims", the text in the New Testament is:

   While he was still on the road and nearing Damascus, suddenly a light
   from the sky flashed all around him. He fell to the ground and heard
   a voice saying, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' 'Tell me, 
   Lord,' he said, 'who you are.' The voice answered, 'I am Jesus, whom
   you are persecuting.  But now get up and go into the city, and you 
   will be told what to do.' (Acts 9:3-6)

As you can see, he did not claim to have met Jesus, but his testimony
claims an even greater authority.

S/Paul's claim to divine authority (the kind of authority necessary to
create a church) is from his gnostic (ie., direct to God) connection 
shown above, which he considered to be more valid than the disciples, 
whom had only known Jesus as a man. Remember also that Paul of Tarsus,
Asia Minor, claimed to be a Pharisee trained under the Rabbi Galamiel.

I tend to side with those who say (such as Hyam Maccoby, an apologist for
the Pharisiaic sect) that Paul was only claiming an association with the
Pharisees in order to demonstrate the authority and lineage of his newly
created orthodoxy. I don't believe his claims, as think he was probably
a Sadducean police officer under the Jewish High Priest before his 
"conversion" to belief in Jesus, and that the Pauline Church was created
from the predominate Hellenic, gnostic and pagan beliefs of his time.

He was not a member of the "Jesus church" (AKA, the Nazarenes, the
followers of Jesus led by Jesus' brother James "the Just" after Jesus'
death), and according to some scholars, may have been in opposition to 
them.

Both Jesus and the Nazarene church believed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah,
the political figure prophesied to lead the Jews out of bondage into the
Kingdom of God, a just society where all people would live together in
harmony. They followed the Torah, and would have considered the divinity 
of Jesus as blasphemous. When his ministry failed to materialize at the 
Mount of Olives, as prophesied in Zechariah, he realized the failure of
his mission. 

Paul's contention of Jesus as God (with the associated trinitarian 
bent) would have distanced his views from the Nazarenes, and brought about
the separation we see between the early church and its Jewish forebearers.
His ideas of the death of the Christ as the atoning sacrifice, and the
ONLY path to salvation, would be considered rather alien to the Palestinian
Jews of the day, including Jesus the Nazarene.

As I've said before, my apologies to those offended by this discussion 
showing up in alt.pagan. I personally don't find a problem with discussing
contentions of the Christian church among fellow pagans, many of whom are
very learned in religious studies and have informed and in some cases
unorthodox views. This discussion wouldn't last five minutes on the
Christian boards, as the screaming and yelling of the dogmatists tends to
drown out the intelligent responses of the few willing to entertain these
ideas. Thanks for all your forebearance and input. It is appreciated.

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
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