HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jsp@uts.amdahl.com (James Preston)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Death Penalty in California :-(
Date: 17 Apr 92 17:46:48 GMT
Reply-To: jsp@pls.amdahl.com
Distribution: ca
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

faustus@ygdrasil.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Wayne A. Christopher) writes:

}Okay, I should have said "Why do you *think* or *believe* you or I
}have such a right?"  I don't mean to attack you personally for saying
}that such a decision must be made, but I want to challenge your
}suggestion that any person or group of people can claim the right to
}judge the value of somebody's life.

Societies have been claiming that right since people first formed them.
I don't see how your challenge can hold water.

}I think trying to balance things will just lead to a feedback cycle,
}where the more you try to stop killing by killing the killers, the
}more killing you generate.  It's an unstable equilibrium.

No it's not.  What, are you somehow saying that you think that the
death penalty actually ENCOURAGES murder?  I'd really like to hear an
explanation of this "feedback cycle".  Far from being unstable, the
death penalty goes towards restoring stability.  When a murder initiates
his killing, he displaces the balance.  When the state executes him, the
balance and equilibrium are restored.  We're now back in a stable situation,
until the next murderer upsets it.

--James Preston

Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: gnn@mastodon.cs.berkeley.edu (George Neville-Neil)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Voucher Initiative
Date: 10 Apr 1992 21:09:30 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: mastodon.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1536@tymix.Tymnet.COM> jdoskow@ichinen.Tymnet.COM (Jonathan Doskow) writes:
>>	NY state had a system called the State Regents Exams that tested
>>	every subject (3rd yr Latin, American History, etc.) from Jnr HS
>>	through HS.
>
>LATIN?  LATIN?  LATIN?  What N.Y. public school teaches Latin?
>
North Babylon Senior High School.  A shining example of all that is
wrong with Amerika's educational system. 

Later,
George



-- 
Why don't they just hire taller ballet dancers instead of making
them dance on their tip toes ??		M. Rochlin


Xref: sparky ca.politics:3527 ba.general:1750
From: faustus@ygdrasil.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Wayne A. Christopher)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,ba.general
Subject: Bay Area Ross Perot Mailing List
Date: 16 Apr 92 01:26:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.sil40INNsp
Distribution: ca
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: ygdrasil.cs.berkeley.edu
Originator: faustus@ygdrasil.CS.Berkeley.EDU

I've created a Bay Area mailing list for the discussion of H. Ross
Perot's candidacy for President, distribution of news reports, and
(hopefully) announcements of local events.  It will also be a
redistribution point for Ben McCall's mailing list.  If you want to
get on it, send mail to:

	perot-friends-request@sequoia.cs.berkeley.edu

The actual mailing list (which goes to everybody) is:

	perot-friends@sequoia.cs.berkeley.edu

There is an anonymous ftp site for materials on Perot -- I don't
recall where it is though.  I could set one up here also if there is
demand.

	Wayne
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty in California :-(
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 21:51:41 GMT

> jsp@pls.amdahl.com (James Preston) writes:
>
>                                      ...If you commit a crime, it is
>just plain FAIR that you pay the price for it.  And if that price be your
>death, then so be it.  Nothing can bring back the victims of those who
>WILLINGLY chose to kill, but killing said criminals in turn goes a small
>way towards restoring the balance.

I disagree.  What balance?  Instead of one dead person,
you now have two dead people.  If human life is so
precious, why does the state have any more right to kill
people than an individual?  As another poster already
said, the death penalty devalues life, turns murder into
a game of tit-for-tat.  You kill someone, we kill you.
If we really valued life, we'd force a murderer to spend
the rest of his/her life considering the enormity of that
crime.  Instead, we're about to prove the murderer's
point -- that life is indeed cheap.
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Northern California Secession
Date: 17 Apr 92 07:48:03 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

Well, now that we finally seem to be returning to political issues in this
newsgroup, I have another issue I'd like to see discussed.  I've been hearing
that there is a move afoot to have several northern California communities
secede from the state.  Anyone care to enlighten me as to why this is being
done?  Is this a good thing?  A bad thing?  What are the chances of success?
(And what should we call the newly created state?)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@mipl3.jpl.nasa.gov |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lev@slced1.nswses.navy.mil (Lloyd E Vancil)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Straight Child molesters?
Date: 8 Apr 92 14:30:46 GMT

Mr Karnes has offered various opinions and invective revealing 
his ideas reguarding modern social problems.  I won't offer any opinion
as to his solutions or opinions other than to point out the rather
odd juxt position with his "opinions" and the last line of his signature.

>
>-- 'innovative solutions for modern problems' ----------------------


Huh?

--
|suned1!lev@elroy.JPL.Nasa.Gov|lev@suned1.nswses.navy.mil|sun!suntzu!suned1!lev|
|S.T.A.R.S. The revolution has begun!|  My Opinions are Mine mine mine hahahah!|
From: oliver@gayley.math.ucla.edu (Mike Oliver)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Death Penalty in California :-(
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:49:04 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department

In article <2c2.02pIcbx=00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> jsp@pls.amdahl.com (James Preston) writes:

>[...]  Those who loved the
>dead victim deserve some consideration.  If satisfying their desire
>for revenge can give them a little bit more peace, if it sets their
>minds just a tad more at ease, if it allows them to sleep just a little
>bit better at night, then the revenge has served a purpose.

This is actually the argument that gives me the most trouble.
Because I agree that Harris owes something -- in fact a huge amount --
to the families of his victims.  I personally do not consider
revenge to be anything positive, but as a libertarian I do not
believe the government (or "society") gets to dictate to the
individual his values.  So I have a problem -- how do I tell
Steve Baker that his sociobiologically-originated desire for
revenge ought not to be satisfied to compensate him for the
wrong inflicted on him by Harris?

Well, I don't know the answer for sure, that's why I call it
a problem.  But I also cannot see adopting this as a standard.
For example, if this is the reason for capital punishment, then
the families of the victims ought to have the right to grant
mercy, as they do in Sharia (Islamic law).  There might
be something to be said for this idea but it would certainly
involve a radical reworking of the whole penal system in
this country; it has very little to do with the death penalty
as practiced today.

Second, suppose nobody loved the victim?  Does that mean no
capital punishment for killing him?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Oliver 
UUCP:...!{ucbvax,{hao!cepu}}!ucla-cs!math.ucla.edu!oliver
ARPA: oliver@math.ucla.edu
From: ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Death Penalty in California :-(
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 07:47:11 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: ca
  <sd7d1INN8og@agate.berkeley.edu> <2c2.02pIcbx=00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>

> I think a big reason that the death penalty is not a deterrent is because
> it doesn't exist.  How long has it been since the last execution in this
> state?  What criminal in their right mind (or any other mind) would bother
> to fear something THAT DOESN'T EXIST?

I think that the biggest reason for the lack of deterence of the death
penalty (or any other penalty, such as jail time) is that criminals
are, in general, stupid.

They think that, somehow, they will be the rare criminal who is not
caught by the police.  They aren't and so they are.

Threats such as jail or death only deter those who are smart enough to
realize that they are not smart enough to outwit the police.  The
dumb ones won't realize this, so won't be detered.

							Tim Smith
From: djk@Nitro.CtEdge.COM
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: KEEP AWAY FROM KIDS!
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 15:36:52 PDT
Distribution: world
Organization: NMS&Systems Engineering

donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:

> Say, how are those drama classes going? :v)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|- Too his head. :-)
>    don


-djk

--- Daniel J. Karnes / WA6NDT --------------------------------------
--- NMS&Systems Engineering ----------------------------------------
--- Djk@Nitro.CtEdge.COM / ..CtEdge!Nitro!Djk ----------------------
-- 'innovative solutions for modern problems' ----------------------
From: zursch@whizkid.corp.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Death Penalty in California : -(
Date: 17 Apr 92 18:36:51 GMT
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.corp.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Distribution: ca
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1562@tymix.Tymnet.COM>, Jonathan Doskow writes:
>I'm certainly sympathetic to the notion that capital punishment should
>require an even higher standard of evidence than, "beyond a shadow of a
>doubt," but I don't think you've adaquetly spelled it out.

Well, if it's worth anything, I don't think I've adequately spelled it out
either. I think it would take a long time, and someone more trained in
law and justice than me to do a good job writing such a law.  I'm just
trying to throw out ideas that would minimize or eliminate the 
possibility of abuse of the death penalty while maintaining that it's
something we ought to have.  

JZ
From: jsp@uts.amdahl.com (James Preston)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Death Penalty in California :-(
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:11:28 GMT
Reply-To: jsp@pls.amdahl.com
Distribution: ca
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

oliver@gayley.math.ucla.edu (Mike Oliver) writes:

}In article <f55i02amccy.00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> jsp@pls.amdahl.com (James Preston) writes:

}>I believe in the sanctity of INNOCENT lives.

}Perhaps I would agree with this concept, if I were innocent.  But I know
}very well that I am not.  I have hurt people, both accidentally and
}deliberately, both people I didn't care about and people I loved.  In
}most cases this was in ways beyond the reach of the laws of the State of
}California, but that doesn't seem ultimately to matter much.

}Mr. Preston, have you really never done anything wrong for which you
}hope not to have to pay the honest price?

You're convolving two shades of meaning of the word "innocent".  When
I used it above, I meant that Mr. Harris's victims were innocent with
respect to his killing of them.  They did nothing to cause or contribute
to their own deaths.  The murderer simply took their lives, with no cause,
no justification, no due process, nothing.  This has absolutely nothing
to do with me being responsible for my own wrongdoings in life.  I accept
that responsiblity, and whatever consequences befall me.  Of course I have
committed many wrongdoings in my life.  Does that somehow mean that it is ok 
for someone like Harris to just kill me? Does it mean that he should somehow
be held less accountable for his actions just because he is not the only
person in the world who has ever done wrong?  Your point here totally 
escapes me.

}>As for this question of balance, I covered that, but you seem unable to
}>grasp the simple concept.  A life for a life (or usually for many lives).
}>That's balance.

}OK, you've described your notion of "balance."  But you haven't really
}said what's *good* about it, why this "balance" is to be desired.

Because it is fair.  Do you not understand the concept of fairness, or
why fairness is inherently better than unfairness?  Hey, if you don't
care what's fair, then just give me all your money.

}As I said before, I can understand the desire for revenge in sociobiological
}terms.  Those who had it were less likely to be attacked, and therefore
}were more likely to pass on their genes.  But that does not make it right.
}If there were any case about which I would agree with Paul about the
}sinful nature of the flesh, this would be it.

Well, you still haven't said anything about what is WRONG with revenge.
Why is it sinful?  What's bad about it?  What harm does it do?  If you
believe that revenge is bad because of where it might lead, because of
how the desire for it might lead a person into doing some unlawful and/or
harmful act, then you are arguing in FAVOR of the death penalty.  Because
the death penalty is a perfectly legal way to satisfy the desire for
revenge.  And if that desire is satisfied in a legal way, the person
seeking revenge is less likely to resort to illegal means to satisfy it,
right?

--James Preston
From: oliver@gayley.math.ucla.edu (Mike Oliver)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Death Penalty in California :-(
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:17:36 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department

In article <f9ov025zcckM00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> jsp@pls.amdahl.com (James Preston) writes:

>Besides, all you're saying is that we need more humane ways of execution.
>I have no problem with that.

Well, I do.

One of the most offensive things to me about capital punishment is its
ritual nature, especially the way the condemned is expected to cooperate
in his own death by walking meekly to the <insert name of killing machine>.
It would seem much more honest if the executioner simply took a
12-gauge, stuck it through the bars of the inmate's cell, and blew
him away.

The "humane" methods, particularly lethal injection, seem to me
to be an attempt to conceal from ourselves the nature of what we
are doing.

On a related point, I object to the way it is done "in the name
of the People of the State of California" and the way they attempt
to separate the responsibility from the executioner and warden
and guards.  As one of those People (and in fact, as a TA, a sworn
officer thereof) I want nothing to do with this.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Oliver 
UUCP:...!{ucbvax,{hao!cepu}}!ucla-cs!math.ucla.edu!oliver
ARPA: oliver@math.ucla.edu
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Voucher Initiative
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:47:41 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <rida4INNapu@agate.berkeley.edu>, gnn@mastodon.cs.berkeley.edu (George Neville-Neil) writes:
> In article <1489@tymix.Tymnet.COM> rklute@enchanter.tymnet.com (Robert Klute) writes:
> >I will know the same way I choose retail products.  I will ask other 
> >users of the product, go and look at in use, check the records concerning
> >its performance.  Then I will try it; and, if I don't like it, I will
> >take my business elsewhere.
> 
> How do you decide though ??  It will take 12yrs to find out if the
> system worked or not.  I'm not happy with a quick fix but 12yrs is a
> long time and meanwhile you may have wasted a generation of people
> with a faulty system.
> 
> Later,
> George

If it takes parents 12 years to figure out whether a school is doing a 
good job or not, the parents are so inoperative that they won't EVER
figure it out.

Look, if your child, at the end of a year in a school (private or
public) isn't obviously making progress, this had better cause you to
ask serious questions about where the problem lies.  It may be the
school, it may be the parents, it may be a learning disability.
But you don't need to wait 12 years to figure out that a system isn't
working.

Though we now have enough victims of such public education travesties
as "see it and say it" reading, and New Math, that we can be quite
sure that the System itself is in need of overhaul, or even complete
demolition.  Let me tell you a story of how badly the public schools
in this state are failing.

I'm taking a history class this semester which is both for history
majors, and a General Education requirement.  Our professor was
ready to return the first papers of the semester -- book reviews.
He had the misfortune to tell us that several papers were turned
in all upper case -- and that this is not considered proper for a
paper.  I was able to see one of the papers in question, because the
vocal econazi in the class was one of the offenders.  It was obvious
that he had used a Macintosh, so it wasn't a technical deficiency of
the equipment he was using -- and the ALL UPPER CASE PAPER WASN'T
THE MOST GLARING PROBLEM HE HAD!

One paper turned in, all upper case, might be just a statistical
fluke; three in a class of 40 students shows that someone has
really blown it in the lower grades.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"The mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a
favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace
of God." -- Thomas Jefferson
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Object
Keywords: blah blah
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:23:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: igor.1992Apr8.232335.1675
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, San Francisco

In article <10369@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>All perfectly valid points to make -- except the question is still
>being evaded -- if NAMBLA doesn't have at least a considerable body
>of support in the gay community, why does it march in gay parades?
>NAMBLA is about the worst possible group to have march in a gay parade,
>considering the stereotypes of homosexuals as child molesters.  And
>yet they still march.

Seems like an case of intestinal fortitude, to me.

Something rare in America, these days...

   don
*******************************************************************************
* Don Baldwin        "Between the idea and the reality,                       *
* Software Engineer   Between the motion and the act, falls the shadow.       *
*                     Between the conception and the creation,                *
* donb@tamri.com      Between the emotion and the response, falls the shadow."*
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: ca.politics,ba.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: why bother? (MANY GOOD REASONS! - THATS WHY!!!)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 01:36:57 GMT
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Distribution: ca

In article <PFLkiB1w164w@batpad.lgb.CA.US> mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US (Mike Batchelor) writes:
    >phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
    >
    >>In article <NyFBiB4w164w@batpad.lgb.CA.US>
    >>mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US (Mike Batche
    >>>So there's no winning with you. You either have to say you
    >>>disapprove, or say nothing, which means that you approve.
    >>>
    >>>Why do you insist on continuing to make life miserable for
    >>>gay high school students? Why do you insist on being cruel
    >>>like that?
    >>>
    >>Aren't you loading up on assumptions here? Perhaps I don't
    >>want kids of mine exposed to a social situation where they
    >>are exposed to say, skinhead and homosexual lifestyles --
    >>especially when value neutral or value positive.
    >>
    >>Why is it when I prefer not to associate with group X, I'm
    >>being "cruel", yet when group X desires and indeeds attempts
    >>to force (via legislation) acceptance they are not being
    >>cruel?
    >>
    >That's not what you were saying at all. You said that if the
    >schools are going to mention homosexuality at all, then they
    >must say that it is to be disapproved of. Your preference is
    >for them to say nothing, which allows the status quo to
    >continue, and gay teens suffer because of it. Some of them
    >commit suicide over it. If you don't think that's cruelty,
    >then I think there is something wrong with your head.

Ugh. What do you be smoking -- dessicated rat turds?

Why oh why can't people READ and then COMPREHEND the written word?

No, no, no, THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do believe that the great unwashed majority of people can not literally
distinguish between what they say and what should be law.


Once again, the point is WHO CONTROLS, and WHAT SHOULD BE, taught in a public
coercively funded school.

If one believes in coercive democracy, then why shouldn't the majority wishes
of the parents dominate what is taught?

I asked the question.

It wasn't posed as either a belief or non-belief on my part.

I'm trying to expose the contradictions (to freedom) of coercive democracy.




-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

The continuing discussion in alt.ketchup is really disgusting. All proper
right thinking volitional entities *know* ketchup is always served cold.
Exceptions for battlefield dining could be made if you must ...

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
From: falk@peregrine.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Noreiga
Date: 11 Apr 92 03:20:28 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: peregrine

In article <s377pINN848@agate.berkeley.edu> faustus@ygdrasil.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Wayne A. Christopher) writes:
|So they convicted Noreiga of smuggling drugs.  I'm not surprised they
|found him guilty, but the major question, which I haven't seen
|discussed at all, is this:  by what authority are we trying a citizen
|of a foreign country for crimes committed on foreign soil?  Has the
|government explained this?  Why isn't it discussed in the news
|articles about the trial?

I'm just waiting for Costa Rica to mount an armed invasion of the U.S.
to bring John Hull and Oliver North back for trial.

		-ed falk, sun microsystems
		 sun!falk, falk@sun.com
	That's one thing about going against the flow:  there's
	less traffic in that direction.
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Subject: Re: KEEP AWAY FROM KIDS!
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, San Francisco
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 16:51:46 GMT

In article <9204062253.AA00127@echidna.swdc.stratus.com>
lpb@STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM (Len Bucuvalas x5363) writes:
>AND I SAY THIS:
>The adult who touches my little girl with have to deal with me. No law, no
>authority, no gun is large enough to keep me from disembowling the perpetrator.
>This I vow: Absolute violence against the child molester! To even broach this
>conversation with me in the attitude of one who would promote it, is to invite
>a complete dis-integration of life to the one who contemplates child molestation
>Adults who do this are no better than rabid dogs and must be exterminated 
>as such!

Er, uh, thanks Len.

Say, how are those drama classes going? :v)

   don
From: mikea@psdslc3.gvg.tek.com (Michael P. Anderson)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Voucher Initiative
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:18:38 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

In article <10384@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) blathers:

>But it doesn't deny the right of artists to use public funds to
>promote ridicule of various religions, and encourage seeing
>kids as sexual partners for adults.
>
>Hypocrite.

Creationsim, racism, and antisemitism aren't art.

What a maroon.

									MPA
Newsgroups: ca.politics