From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: the conversion can of worms, again (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy ...)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<dfs.712504378@ro> <1992Jul30.171428.25715@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<dfs.712520924@ro> <LERNER.92Jul31092626@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<dfs.712591270@ro> <LERNER.92Jul31112139@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<dfs.712598940@ro>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:14:49 GMT

>In article <dfs.712598940@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
>Path: cs.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!gumby!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!torn!cunews!dfs
>From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
>Sender: news@cunews.carleton.ca (News Administrator)
>Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
>References: <dfs.712351333@ro> <1992Jul30.130347.11477@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> 	<dfs.712504378@ro> <1992Jul30.171428.25715@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> 	<dfs.712520924@ro> <LERNER.92Jul31092626@division.cs.columbia.edu> 	<dfs.712591270@ro> <LERNER.92Jul31112139@division.cs.columbia.edu>
>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:09:00 GMT
>Lines: 150
>
>In <LERNER.92Jul31112139@division.cs.columbia.edu>
>lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
>
>[DFS]
>>-That is, of course, a false analogy.  First of all, the Justices in America
>>-are selected as part of the legal system.  They are ultimately answerable
>>-to the American Constitution.  The Orthodox religious establishment is
>>-answerable only to G-d, not the State of Israel.
>>            ====
>
>> ONLY to G-D?  This would seem to me a higher authority.
>
>Of course it's a higer authority.  But that's no way for a government
>to make decisions - until Moshiach arrives.

 Oh, I see.  We should ignore (chas v'shalom) G-d until then?

>
>> The Rabbonim are, and always have been, selected on the basis of their
>> merit by the Gedolim (State enforced assignments aside).  There are 
>> rigorous standards and excellence must be demonstrated both in knowledge
>> and in character.
>
>But so what?  They are concerned with Jewish law, not Israeli law.  Why
>should they have any say over what non-O Israelis do?

 I am quite sure that the Gedolim are aware of the Halachas about the
 laws-of-the-land, and strive to ensure these do not contradict the
 Halacha.  Thus they are concerned with Israeli law as well.  
  
>
>>-Secondly, the Orthodox Jews in Israel are not "highly trained discerning
>>-individuals who have been selected for special qualities."  They are just
>>-ordinary people, the same as anyone else.  The majority of Israelis had
>>-no say in selecting them.
>
>>  And many US justices are APPOINTED officials l'havdil.  Yet America
>>  is the greatest country in the world.
>
>Don't the justices have to go through a confirmation procedure before
>they can be appointed?

  There is no more rigorous confirmation procedure than the rigorous
  selection to which the Gedolim are subjected.

>
>[DFS]
>>-What IS your point??  Are you saying that two Ethiopians who want to marry
>>-must first be "converted" and then married in a totally alien ceremony?
>>-Is that as immutable as the laws of physics?
>
>> And you are saying people should do whatever they like!
>
>Essentially, yes.  What I am saying is that a *democratically-elected
>government* has NO BUSINESS telling people that they must abide by rules
>that only 15% of the population believes in.
 Most people don't believe in speed limits, but they save lives.  

>
>>There are standards
>> and practices that are well within the reach of all Jews.
>
>However, many feel that they are being coerced to obey them.  Is coercion
>the Jewish way?

 So lets find ways to help people find out why the practices are good.
 Lets start by allowing people the freedom to keep the Shabbos without
 buses, planes and other activities.

>
>[DFS]
>>-I agree.  I said before: I have no problem with the O doing whatever
>>-they want.  But why should they force it on others?  Why should a secular
>>-government listen to 15% of its constituency and ignore the wishes of
>>-85%?
>
>> You are endorsing anarchy!!
>
>Oh, nonsense.  Please stop this hype.  I am endorsing basic religious
>freedom for non-O Jews.  I am endorsing a situation little different
>from Canada or the U.S.  Would you say that Canada and the U.S. are
>anarchic?
>

  My labelling you as an anarchist  simply anticipates your erroneous
  presumption about my politics.  As far as the US, the educational
  crisis in this country has been a key issue for decades, along with
  crime, drug abuse, and growing consumer debt (due to ribbus).  Is
  the situation you wish to "endorse" for Israel?

>>You think that everyone should
>>just do what they want without regard to the basic rules.  A majority 
>>rule does not make a correct practice.
>
>You don't read.  I want Israeli citizens to obey the rules of the State
>of Israel.  What I don't want is to have those rules dictated by a small
>segment of the population, with no regard to the feelings of the majority.

  If you think the Rabbonim would act (G-d forbid!) with "no regard for
  the feelings of the majority" then you are not aware of the extreme
  sensitivity the Rabbonim actually have to the needs of the individual.

>
>[DFS]
>>-Let me give you an example which will hit home: Suppose the American
>>-government decided that only religious marriage ceremonies were
>>-acceptable.  Suppose they did a survey, and found that most Jews liked
>>-the Conservative movement best.  Suppose that they then made it
>>-illegal for any rabbi other than a Conservative rabbi to perform
>>-marriages.  How would you feel?
>
>> Such things and worse have been inflicted on our people, and we
>> have held fast to our Religon. 
>
>You didn't answer the question:  How would you feel?  Would you meekly
>accept it?  Would you be outraged?  Would you demonstrate?  Would you
>write letters?  Would you campaign against such a situation?  Please don't
>shy away from the tough questions.

  My feelings are completely personal and none of your business.
  My actions would be to continue living in accord with the Halacha
  and the psak of the Rabbonim.  Whether "demonstration" would help
  or not is a question which will hopefully remain hypothetical.  It
  is a hypothetical question and therefore a concrete answer is not
  possible.

>
>[DFS]
>>-Exactly.  And currently, the government of Israel discriminates against
>>-non-Orthodox or non-observant Jews.  This is manifestly anti-democratic.
>
>>  Your conclusion does not follow from the imposition of standards
>>  that protect the rights of everyone.
>
>Exactly what "rights" are protected when Israel says to, say,
>Conservative converts: "Sure, you can immigrate, you can fight in the
>army for your nation - but expect trouble if you or your kids ever
>want to get married, divorved or buried."
>

 These tragic conflicts are the direct result of individuals who have
 flouted both Rabbinc and Secular law,  and now want to revise things to
 be more convenient.  

>>-Well, then, you'd rather have a theocracy.  But Israel is a democracy,
>>-and democracy and Halacha are incompatible.  Why don't you be honest and
>>-admit it:  You would applaud the collapse of democracy in Israel if a
>>-religious Jewish state emerged as a result.
>
>> I would applaud the adherence to Halacha in a democratic state.  
>
>You didn't answer the question, again.  You avoided the issue.  Your posting
>indicates that you would rather impose Halacha on people than give them
>democratic rights.

  Again it is a hypothetical question,  though to the extent that
  an individual's action against the Halacha will affect other people
  it is indeed my view that they refrain.    Therefore I support
  legislation against murder,  against ribbis,  against adultery,
  etc. 

>
>>-(And it's also easy to work against a democracy while sitting comfortably
>>-in the U.S. where you know your rights will be protected.)
>
>> I completely deny the preposterous calumny that you audaciously
>> claim;  it is quite indeed testimony to your depravity.
>
>Thank you.  I haven't been called "depraved" for a while.  I was
>feeling "deprived."

  I'm sorry you feel deprived.  Yours was a serious charge of sedition,
  again I strenuously deny.  I do not work against democracy.  And
  I do not "know" that my rights will be protected.  

>
>>To
>> even suggest that I would do such a thing is a total distortion.
>
>Then why won't you agree that  85% of the people of Israel should have
>religious freedom?
>

 I am saying that behavior which could (G-d forbid) erode the unique
 spiritual role of our people is contrary to the religous freedom
 of all 100% of the people in Israel.

>[DFS]
>>-But what makes you think a religious Jewish state would be any more
>>-successful than a religious Islamic state?  We've seen time and time
>>-again that in the modern world, religion and politics are explosive
>
>> In the interest of shalom I will not discuss the Islamic states.
>
>More like in the interest of avoiding the issue - again.

  If you insist, yes, I am avoiding discussion of Islam.   


>
>[DFS]
>>-I think you'll have a hard time convincing 85% of Israelis that.  If
>>-Halacha is so pleasant, why do so many reject it?
>
>> Most of those who reject it are simply and innocently misinformed.
>
>So, why not make it your mission in life to INFORM people rather than
>COERCE them?  Again, which is the Jewish way?

  I believe this was my point; that there should be an environment 
  that allows the Jewish people to learn and practice,  to avoid
  the misinformation.  I'm very interested in your suggestions on
  how to improve people's knowledge of what Avraham Aveinu discovered.

  Have agood Shabbos.
--
/M