HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mswihart@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael R Swihart)
Subject: idolatry in N.T.?
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 03:12:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.051753.23966@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>
>Nothing simpler. As to the first request (find an idolatrous NT
>verse), I offer this as just one example: "There are three that are
>honored in heaven, and these are the father, the son, and the holy
>ghost; and these three are one. [chas v'shalom]" (I don't remember the
>exact verse, but I'm sure one of you does.)

I had never heard of that verse, so I looked for it. (I have an
NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.) The verse is not in the N.T.
Perhaps it is from agrapha or pseudepigrapha?

>
>As to Jewish backing for this: The Rambam elucidates what constitutes
>idolatry. This is laid out in the Mishneh Torah; if you want chapter
>and verse, I can look it up. One kind of idolatry is to believe that
>God had taken on a human form. The Rambam allows that this might not
>be an idolatrous belief when held by a goy; but it is certainly
>idolatrous when held by a Jew. All of you keep insisting that the NT
>(except for Luke and Acts) was written by Jews; therefore, it was
>written by idolators, and is an idolatrous work.
>
>Q.E.D.
>-- 
>Andrew Solovay    
>

I take it that this prohibition applies to G-d taking on a normal 
human form and not to the "appearance of the likeness of the glory of the
L-RD" in Ezek. chapter 1. (v. 26 describes seeing "a figure like that of a
man (adam)") That is understandable considering the fanatastic descriptions in
the vision.

A more confusing situation is in Gen. 32: 24-32. It says that Jacob
wrestled with a man (ish) in v. 24. But, v. 28 and v. 30 make it
sound like Jacob was with G-d. (28 says that Jacob strove with G-d. 
30 has Jacob saying he had seen G-d face to face and Jacob named the
place Peniel meaning face of G-d) Maybe it's just the
translation (My Hebrew is too pitiful to really help me with this chapter.),
but it sure comes across like G-d taking the form of a man.

Confused and (sigh) still ignorant
M.Swihart
(mswihart@gn.ecn.purdue.edu)

P.S. I would like to know more about the Mishneh reference and what it
has to say.
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah (Isaiah 7:14) part 1
Date: 23 Jan 93 22:16:32 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

To: Laura Johanna Manninen:

 LJM> I'm not interested in defending myself but the truth, so I'll 
 LJM> also gave you the etymological meanings of 'almah' (hidden)
 LJM> and 'betulah' (separated). And I really would like to go 
 LJM> this discussion by replying to replies to *my* posts. (Nu, 
 LJM> Dov ?) 

Shalom Laura,  I am about to post more this week on the Almah, and Betullah
problems in Scripture.  It should solve the issue beyond any shadow of doubt..

The only problem with the two anyway is modern scholarship... Of course they completely overlook the origins of the word "maid" "maiden", which originally meant guess what, not a maid who makes the beds in hotels, thats for sure, but
"A VIRGIN".  Look up the word Maid and maiden, from which we get, maidenhood, and maidenhead, which definitely refers to virginity.  

those who are argueing are not even aware of what they are even saying, for there is a case for both betullah and Almah referring to virgins...

The burden of proof lies with them, as they cannot from antiquity find any scripture or ancient document that refers to almah as being not a virgin..

On the other hand they would be hard pressed to find a place in Scripture alone, that makes betullah an absolute virgin as well...(grin) 
--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Rashi's quote (was Re: Almah - Betulah)
Organization: University of Turku
	<KRULWICH.93Jan19160058@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan21113710@polaris.utu.fi>
	<1jp2dkINNg8d@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:18:10

In article <1jp2dkINNg8d@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.93Jan21113710@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >> This is the meaning of "yalda," which is the same as "li'valed," to give
> >> birth.  (The same use of "yalda" is found in bereshis 30:1).
> >
> >Actually the infinitive form for 'yalda' is 'laledet', not 'levaled' 
> >(lamed-vav-lamed-dalet). They obviously mean the same, but I have no
> >idea of the usage of 'levaled'. Anybody ?

> Actually, Laura, li'valed is the rabbinic Hebrew niphal infinitive
> of the root yod.lamed.dalet.

There's 'heh' in between, whereas in the above there isn't. And
what do you mean by rabbinic Hebrew ? 

(BTW don't forget that if it would be nif'al, it would mean 'to be born',
not 'to give birth'.)

> In addition, the specific forms of the infinitive can vary with the
> era and location of the text.

Aha. I guess you mean greater differences than the absence of 'vav' or
'yod'. Can anyone verify this ?

> One of the problems that we face 
> with people who attempt to study the Bible or medieval Hebrew
> texts after having learned modern Hebrew, is that they tend
> to retroject incomplete or inaccurate notions back on the classical
> material.

I'm still waiting for some of you to translate the whole sentence:
"veyesh potrin sheze haot shealmah haita ve'eina reyuah levaled".
Jack ?

> ________________________________________
> Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
> 		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)

- Laura
--
"Who has gone up to heaven and come down ?
 Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands ?
 Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak ?
 Who has established all the ends of the earth ?
 What is his name, and the name of his son ?
 Tell me if you know !"      - Mishlei 30:4
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Subject: Re: Rashi's quote (was Re: Almah - Betulah)
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
	<HEM.93Jan13134949@col400.att.com>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan14105051@polaris.utu.fi>
	<KRULWICH.93Jan19160058@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan21113710@polaris.utu.fi>
	<KRULWICH.93Jan25112343@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:00:26 GMT


In my recent message when I said:

> Someone (Gedalia) wrote about Rashi's comment on Is 7:14:

I should have said "Hillel Markowitz" as I correctly attributed later in the
post.

Sorry for the mis-citation.


Dov
From: phs431d@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: *** MoJ: Proof 4a: Chronology (1 of 3) ***
Date: 27 Jan 93 12:24:42 +1100
Organization: Monash University - Melbourne. Australia.

In article <1993Jan25.120619.22230@ucl.ac.uk>, ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) writes:
> "The Tradition of Elijah teaches that the world is to exist for 6,000
> years: in the first 2,000 desolation, in the next 2,000 the Torah will
> flourish and the next 2,000 years are the days of Messiah.  But on
> account of our sins, which were great, things turned out as they did"
> (Talmud San 97a, see also A.Z. 9a)
> 
>  [Numbers on "proof" of Jesus being the Messiah deleted]

I cannot comment on many of the numbers given since I am not a biblical scholar
but I would ask what proof is there of the world only existing for 6000 years
to this date?

> Vijay (ucakrvb@uk.ac.ucl)

-- 
Don Lowe, Department of Physics, Monash University, 
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 3168.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nixon@cs.toronto.edu (Brian Nixon)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Daniel 9
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:34:54 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto

Concerning Daniel 9, there is an interesting footnote in a French 
translation of the Bible.

Daniel 9:24 starts:      Soixante-dix semaines *
                                          /
footnote: * Dans le sens de _semaines d'annees._   [Emphasis in the text.]

I.e.:  Seventy weeks *
footnote: * In the sense of _weeks of years._

This is from  _La Bible_, Paris: Librairie Colbo, 1983.
It was translated by members of the French Rabbinate under the
direction of Zadoc Kahn, Chief Rabbi, 1899.

Brian Nixon.
From: dweinste@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (David Weinstein)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Rashi's quote (was Re: Almah - Betulah)
Date: 27 Jan 1993 17:58:32 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.ai.mit.edu

In article <26JAN199323151295@utkvx2.utk.edu> fnixon@utkvx2.utk.edu (Nixon, John Fred) writes:
#But you are correct... it doesn't *prove* it one way of the other. All we
#have is the Septuigint translation, and the tens of thousands of first
#century Jews who did in fact accept this account, as used by Matthew, that
#the sign was a virgin would give birth. This would also be in perfect
#accord with your use of almah. But the conclusion would be... naaah.

Tens of thousands of Jews? That means we are talking on the close order
of .75% of the Jewish population. So, if less than 1% of the Christians
were to leave Christianity, obviously Christianity would have it wrong?

--Dave

-- 
Dave Weinstein
Internet: dweinste@gnu.ai.mit.edu
"Wives have no sympathy for Rugby injuries." -- Dan Smith
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: $150,000 Challenge - disprove Daniel 9
Date: 28 Jan 93 21:13:47 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

In article <1k3nj4INNlfn@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>
>In a private email from Vijay to six regular posters to a.m, our friend
>Vijay sent the following paragraph on December 21.  I left for Israel a few
>days after getting his mail, and did not have time to see if it was ever 
>discussed here.
>
>>Also, there is a chance for you to win 100,000 pounds (UK) (over
>>150,000 dollars (US)) for a successful refutation of the Daniel 9
>>prophecy.  I can send you a very short Postscript file to start with
>>and if you think that you can do it then I will send you details
>>about claiming your prize. Let me know.
>

Firstly, it was not six it was about fifty people - I just did six at a time
for the sake of  monitoring delivery failures.
I deleted most of your original article because it was typical you.
>
>Please provide us with the following information:
>
>2)  The *exact* rules under which the money will be paid.
>
>Only after these requirements are fulfilled will I (or probably any other
>possible claimant) spend his time to refure Daniel 9.
>
The *exact* rules involve stating the fulfilment. Spurious aspersions
on the 360 day year and the Book of Daniel are frowned upon.

>we will give it to Jews for Judaism for anti-missionary work.   ;^) 
>
>Gedaliah Friedenberg

The email you sent me still makes me laugh a lot. Thank you for being
a naturally funny person.  Reading your material brightens my life a
few percentage points because you know the secret of comedy.

Vijay 
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: goff@intruder.navo.navy.mil (Victoria Goff)
Subject: Re: Arrogance and self-righteousness : Christlike ?
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-22719]: intruder.navo.navy.mil
Reply-To: goff@pops.navo.navy.mil
Organization: POPS Facility Managment
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:53:48 GMT

In article <hfortuin.5.727453420@stellenbos.csir.co.za>, hfortuin@stellenbos.csir.co.za (Henri Fortuin) writes:
|> 
|> Any so-called Christian/Messianic who believes that he/she could convert 
|> anyone by posting an aggressive assertion of personal belief is woefully 
|> spiritually immature. The same would apply to the Rabbinic fold. I would 
|> prefer to have my faith challenged by having my understanding of the Bible 
|> challenged through being presented with alternative explanations, not by 
|> sarcastic, illogical remarks. My resolution of these challenges can only 
|> strengthen my faith. 
|> 
|> 
|> Let's agree to disagree and mutually help each discover the source of all 
|> truth -- God's Word !
|> 
|> Regards,
|> 
|> Henri Fortuin
|> South Africa

Henri, a voice of sound reason. The entire Usenet is plagued with this
arrogant/self-righteous problem. Certainly we know what Jesus had to
say about these attitudes. 

BTW, may I add that common sense gets thrown out the window with some
of these intellectual word games. For instance, common sense would tell
you that a prophesy of a young woman having a child is no sign, now 
a VIRGIN having a child is indeed a sign and a miracle.

Keep up the posting, maybe someone will get the message...

-Victoria Goff

Disclaimer - My opinions are my own.
From: pauld@sdd.hp.com (Paul Dillinger)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: alt.messianic forum
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:39:47 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdl102.sdd.hp.com

To Harvey Smith:

Thank you for your reply.

Earlier you wrote,

> To Paul Dillinger:
> 
> PD> Is it possible that this news group could provide a forum by 
>  PD> which questions which pertain to Messianic or Rabbinic 
>  PD> Judaism can be answered?
> 
> Thats what it is here for...

My observation is that many good questions go unanswered. For example,
someone recently asked for the definitions of Reb, Rebbe, Rabbi etc. with no
response.

> 
>  PD> There is no soc.culture.messianic group, and posting to
>  PD> soc.culture.jewish seems to produce an unpleasantness for some.
> 
> Welll there is.  There is an entire net called MJCN, and is frequable via
>Fido net node 1:100/519, or Fmlynet 8:7002/1, and is on the fmlynet
>backbone.
> 
> We have general chit chat forum called "Shalom"
> We have a theological echo for soc, cultural, and doctrinal, called
>  Theo_log
> We have a World echo, for Israel and the news in the light of biblical
>  prophecy.
> We have CJ_debat, a Christian Jewish debate echo
> WE have Lifeware, a testimony echo
> Even MJ_cook is on the horizon...
> 
> MOderator MJCN    

Can you instruct me, as an internet user who uses 'rn' as my news reader,
how I can gain access to MJCN?

Your help is appreciated.

-
  Paul       Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
Dillinger                                                    Mal 3:16a
-
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: *** MoJ: Proof 4a: Chronology (1 of 3) ***
Date: 25 Jan 93 12:06:19 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

"The Tradition of Elijah teaches that the world is to exist for 6,000
years: in the first 2,000 desolation, in the next 2,000 the Torah will
flourish and the next 2,000 years are the days of Messiah.  But on
account of our sins, which were great, things turned out as they did"
(Talmud San 97a, see also A.Z. 9a)

Messiah was supposed to be revealed at the 4,000th year and then we
would live under his teachings for the next 2,000 years. 

Did God withhold Messiah? NO! In order to examine what went wrong, we
need to examine the Jewish chronology (taken from A.Z. 9a-10a)

From Creation to Exodus and giving of law at Sinai                2448
From Exodus to building of First Temple                            480
Existence of First Temple                                          410
Babylonian Exile                                                    70
Existence of Second Temple (assumed destroyed in 68 CE)            420
From 68 CE to 1993 CE                                             1925
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total                                                             5753
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In actual fact the Babylonian Exile started in 607 BCE so the number
of years until 68 would be 674 (there is no year zero).  With this
known error we get 5753 + 674 - 490 = 5937.

Tomorrow, I will show you how to 'magic' this 5937 into a number large
enough to prove that Jesus is Messiah on the basis of chronology alone.

For today I just want to make two points:

(1) Guess how the Talmudists worked out that there were 490 years
between the two Temples?  Correct! They used the Daniel prophecy of the
70 weeks (see Talmud Naz 32b).  Remember at this point all the Temple
records were lost and they were relying on as much data as possible
from the Tanakh.  Whilst the first few figures are essentially correct,
the 490 is wrong.

(2) There are many chronologies which confirm that Jesus did come at
the 4,000th year.  The most famous ones are Ussher and Lightfoot. 
Three centuries apart both these Christians make 1993 about the 5,990th
year.  Let us disregard these because it wouldnot be fair to ask
unbelievers to believe in Christian chronologies.

Instead lets talk about Leopald Zunz.  He was a famous German Jew with
a deep hatred of Christ and Christians.  But he was very intelligent
and invented the Science of Judaism.  One of his major projects was to
compile an accurate chronology in which he reconciled Jewish history
with non-Jewish history.  According to him 1993 would be 5981!!!

I often find the same with people I know - that God can still use the
unbelievers to inspire others to somehow come to faith in Christ.

Refuters, please be patient.  Tomorrow, I will tell you what you have
to do in order to disqualify this proof.

Vijay (ucakrvb@uk.ac.ucl)
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Were It Not For The Veil . . .
Date: 21 Jan 93 03:17:04 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: friedenb@spruce.egr.msu.edu

 GF> Date: 18 Jan 93 22:15:12 GMT
 GF> Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
 GF> Message-ID: <1jfa5gINNkbk@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
 GF> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 GF> 
 GF> In article <1je7rlINNr8@pollux.usc.edu> kjh@pollux.usc.edu
 GF> (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
 >Rabbinic Jews are incapable of seeing and/or understanding the truth.
 >*Incapable*!
 GF> 
 GF> Really, is that so?  Then can anyone please try to explain to us 
 GF> "Rabbinic" Jews why there are so many people on alt.messianic
 GF> trying to help us to "understand"? 
 GF> 
 GF> (if in fact we *are* incapable, and "Messianic" Jews are similarly
 GF> enlightened, then shouldn't "Messianic" Jews know that it is 
 GF> fruitless to try to make us understand, given the above
 GF> information?)

     Just a couple of things FYI....

     First, Kenneth J. Hendrickson isn't a "Messianic" Jew.

     Second, of course Rabbinic Jews ARE CAPABLE of "seeing and/or
     understanding the truth"!  Think about it a second..., most/many
     of the Messianic Jews on here were "Rabbinic" Jews before
     becoming Messianic :-)

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: fnixon@utkvx2.utk.edu (Nixon, John Fred)
Subject: Re: Complete verification of Jesus
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:04:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.164206.6956@udel.edu>, carroll@bifur.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll) writes...
>4] According to the Jews, the Messiah doesn't come twice. He doesn't come
>  halfway, do part of the job, and then die claiming that he'll come back
>  and finish the job. The messiah is the man who will fill ALL of the
>  requirements of the messiah during his lifetime. Period. If the messianic
>  age is not here, then the messiah has not come. Take a look at Bosnia right
>  now, where thousands of people are being maimed, raped, and killed in the
>  name of Christianity, and then try to tell me that Jesus brought the 
>  messianic age.

  I suppose that's why the Chabad has declared the Rebbe as the Messiah... 
after he was "dead" in his recent illness...  Are you really trying to say
that anyone who declares someone as Messiah before all the requirements are
complete can't be part of Judiasm? Are the Chabad Jews now separate from the
Jewish people because they believe they know who the Messiah is... before
world peace arrives? 

fnixon@sol.cs.utc.edu
fnixon@utkvx.utk.edu
From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Working on it
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:44:27 GMT
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL


In article <1993Jan19.202538.1020@dragon.com> cms@dragon.com writes:

> 	I am giving you my shalom, my peace.  "If Jesus is the 
> 	Messiah, where is world peace?"  The question is often asked 
> 	as if the implied negative answer proves that Yeshua's claim 
> 	to Messiahship is false.  For it is true that the swords have 
> 	not yet been beaten into plowshares, and nations still learn 
> 	war (Isaiah 2:4).  The answer is that Yeshua is indeed 
> 	fulfilling his promise, but not all at once.

I want to announce to everyone that I am the Moshiach.

Granted, I'm not a leader of the Jews, but I'm working on it.

Granted, I haven't brought world peace, but I'm working on it.

Granted, I'm not recognized by the entire world, but I'm working on it.

Granted, I haven't returned the diaspora to Israel, but I'm working on it.

Granted, I haven't brought about the rebuilding of the Temple, but I'm working
on it.

Granted, I haven't been ordained by the Jewish religious leaders, but I'm
working on it.

Granted, I haven't demonstrated my lineage to the tribe of Yehuda, but I'm
working on it.


Based on the fact that I'm working on it, I proclaim myself the Moshiach!


Send all donations in the form of checks made out to "cash."


Dov
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Disproof of "Proof 2" (was *** MoJ: Proof 2: The Passover Prophecy ***)
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:08:35 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

In article <1jvcalINNouf@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan19.115444.28751@ucl.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay
>Bhuchar) writes:
>>In the prophecy of the 70 weeks I said that the 360 day was only
>>suggested this century and under this method Mashiach Nagid has
>>to be revealed on Nisan 10, which is exactly what the New
>>Testament says about Jesus.
>
>This has repeatedly been disproven on alt.messianic.  You cannot use
>invalid "facts" for part of a "proof".  Please refer to all of the
>previous posts on this topic for further information (including
>"Disproof of 'Proof 1'").  
>:
OH WHAT???? OH WHAT????
I have all the files on the so called disproof of Proof 1 and as
far as I can tell all you have come up with is casting aspersions 
on the use of the 360 day year and other pedantry like such.

A disproof of this great prophecy would involve citing the subjects
and dates of this prophecy - you have not done this because all the 
Jewish commentaries go with the versions involving Cyrus which I 
pre-empted so you dont know which way to turn.

Please post up a proper refutation of proof 1 which involves 
typing out the fulfilment not haphazard aspersions.

Thank you.

Vijay
Newsgroups: alt.messianic