HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:01:41 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: 2 Peter 3
              2 Sep 1992 13:34:06 EDT from <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>

Dear Lon ;

If I answered this query before, please forgive me.
Implementing the rule of the "Analogy of Scripture" (Scripture interprets
Scripture), and the local context of 2 Peter 3, I would have to claim that
the events of 2 Peter 3:10 occurred in A.D. 70.

Really, Lon, this is an issue of importance, but it must be deemed as
secondary when compared to the Gospel of God's Free and Sovereign Grace.
Now, if someone slips up on the Gospel, then REAL trouble results.
I am fairly convinced of my belief on eschatology, but I am STILL open
if convinced from Scripture in a exegetically logical manner.



Jesse Carnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:13:28 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      prayer suggestion

Hi all:

Since no one on this list claims to be pro-abortion, I have a suggestion.
(If you don't want to participate, don't).  I suggest that those of us
who feel that abortion is the taking of human life agree to pray every
Sunday for the 28,000 children who will die from induced abortion
during the following week, and ask God to intercede as he sees fit in
those cases.  Essentially, I would like us to pray that the number of
abortions begin to decrease, so that someday we will not have to pray
about this issue at all.

Alternatively, you might wish to make this a daily prayer for the 4000
who will die on that particular day.

I read somewhere that we should pray specifically, for specific things.
In this case, we may not know the results for a very long time, but I
think it would be well worth the effort.

Love INC,

           --Kerry


PS:  Is everybody still praying for revival?  Good.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:19:03 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christian Youth

Or a biblical play charging admission.  Two things accomplished.  THey would
have to study their parts.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 12:23:49 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Saints (WAS Jesus...OR Pope?

Marty:

If the usage of "saint" is as you describe it, why does the Church deem
some to be saints (St. Paul, St. Francis, etc.) and some not?

Where does the authority to canonize individuals come from?

Thanks,

Love INC,

         --Kerry
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 21:13:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Matt. 24

I just signed onto this list today, and perhaps I missed a significant part
of the thread, but did I understand someone to say that Jesus sermon on
the mount of olives recorded in Matt. 24-25 was fulfilled at the destruction
of Jerusalem  in 70 A.D.?

Many of Jesus' statements about events occurring during the time in which
these events are supposed to take place did not occur prior to or during the
sack of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.,  for example:

The Gospel shall be preached to all the nations (Matt. 24:14).  This, one
could argue, has not been fulfilled even today.  It had most certainly not
been fulfilled in 70 A.D.

The abomination of desolation can be seen in the holy place. (Matt. 24:15)
According to Daniel the people of the ruler who will come will confirm a
covenant with Israel for one week (generally  thought to be a seven year
period) and in the middle of the week he will break covenant and set up
the abomination.  Jesus reference to it puts it sometime in the future of
Israel, so it cannot merely refer to Antiochus' desolation of the temple
in O.T. times.   And no event like this took place at the sack of Jerusalem.
(see Dan. 9:24-27)

(Matt. 24:29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

1. The sun will be darkened
2. The moon shall not give her light
3. The stars shall fall from heaven, etc

Again, this was not fulfilled during the sack of Jerusalem

One last thought.  Those who would like to consign these events to 70 A.D.
like to refer to Matt. 24:34.  -- "Verily I say unto you, This generation
shall not pass, til all these things be fulfilled".  However, the NIV gives
"race" as an alternate rendering for the word "generation".

Making this substitution we can look at these events as being future instead
of attempting to make them fit into a  slot in history which, take literally,
they cannot fit into.

Brian
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 22:49:20 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Bartholomew, Apostle (24 August)
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

BARTHOLOMEW THE APOSTLE (24 AUGUST)

The name "Bartholomew" appears in the New Testament only on lists of
the names of the twelve apostles. This list normally is given as six
pairs, and the third pair in each of the Synoptics is "Philip and
Bartholomew" (M 10:3; P 3:18; L 6:14; but A 1:15).

John gives no list of the Twelve, but refers to more of them
individually than the Synoptists. He does not name Bartholomew, but
early in his account (John 1:43-50) he tells of the call to
discipleship of a Nathaniel who is often supposed to be the same
person. The reasoning is as follows: John's Nathanael is introduced
as one of the earliest followers of Jesus, and in terms shich
suggest that he became one of the Twelve. He is clearly not the same
as Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Thomas, Judas Iscariot, Judas
(not Iscariot, also called Lebbaeus or Thaddeus), all of whom John
names separately. He is not Matthew, whose call is described
differently (M 9:9). This leaves Bartholomew, James the son of
Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes. Of these, Bartholomew is the leading
candidate for two reasons:
     (1) "Bar-tholomew" is a patronymic, meaning "son of Tolmai (or
Talmai)." It is therefore likely that he had another name. (A
historical novel which may not be well researched informs me that a
first-century Jew would be likely to use the patronymic instead of
the forename as a mark of respect in speaking to a significantly
older Jew.) "Nathanael son of Tolmai" seems more likely than
"Nathanael also called James (or Simon)." (But note that, since
there were other disciples called James and Simon, these two might
very well have gone by alternate designations part of the time to
avoid confusion.)
     (2) Nathanael is introduced in John's narrative as a friend of
Philip. Since Bartholomew is paired with Philip on three of our
four lists of Apostles, it seems likely that they were associated.

We have no certain information about Bartholomew's later life. The
majority tradition, with varying details, is that Bartholomew
preached in Armenia, and was finally skinned alive and beheaded to
Albanus (now Derbend) on the Caspian Sea. His emblem in art is a
flaying knife. The flayed Bartholomew can be seen in Michelangelo's
Sistine painting of the Last Judgement.

PRAYER
   Almighty and everlasting God, who didst give to thine apostle
   Bartholomew grace truly to believe and to preach thy Word: Grant
   that thy Church may love what he believed and preach what he
   taught; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth
   with thee and the Holy Ghost, one God for ever and ever.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 09:08:44 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Lord, I lilft your name...

Lord, I lift your name on high;
Lord, I love to sing your praises.
I'm so glad You're in my life.
I'm so glad you came to save us.
You came from heaven to earth, to show the way;
From the earth to the cross, my debt to pay.
From the cross to the grave,
From the grave to the sky,
Lord, I lift your name on high.
                  (author unknown)

Praise the Lord!



Carol Nemec
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 20:34:05 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: prolife alert: new poll figures

Frustrated Tim:

You have misidentified what the culture war is about.  The cultural
divide is between those who hold stubbornly to the notion that
one should stand firm for what's right, and those who refuse to
acknowledge that anything can be *wrong*.

One side's central organizing principle is the notion of rights
(about which we have much debated here).  This side has determined
that all things are good, providing they do not cause direct harm
to another human being.  The other side says that it does not matter
whether someone gets hurt, some things are simply *wrong*.

There is an absolute morality.  One side claims to know it, the other
claims to know that there is no such thing.

As Christians, we must dedicate our lives, our hearts, our spirits, our
*everything* to Jesus.  For all of us, that means forsaking ideas,
concepts, people, and things we once held dear, and giving them over
to Him.  For some, it means admitting to a sin once believed to be
an unchageable internal characteristic.  But the Lord's message is
clear:  if there is *anything* you value more than me, you do not
love me.  God's first command is to stay away from idols.  If that
idol is your ego, your love interest, your behavior, your lifestyle,
your family, your *anything*, it must go, no matter the cost.

We must stand with Jesus, no matter who says otherwise.  We must
answer to Him alone.  No government, no society, no culture,
no philosophical system can be used as an excuse to permit us to
do otherwise.

When we choose sin over salvation, we must accept the consequences.
The Truth is a hard truth, but a truth nonetheless.  The lie of
Satan is that we can invent our own morality, because our ways
are just as valid as God's.  But God's ways are *not* the ways
of human beings, they are higher, better, and right.  Satan's
lure is to flatter us to believe that the things we feel most
comfortable with must be the right things.  But those are things
we choose out of a sinful human heart.  Sometimes the gospel is
a difficult thing to follow.  Sometimes the Lord seems a harsh
taskmaster, but He always gives us the strength we need to
endure.  Whether we choose to put our small hand in His and
let Him lead us to greater freedom is up to us.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu (john russell)
Subject: To Tim and Tim
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:54:14 GMT

This is a quick reply to two posts:

To Tim Bieling,

Comgratulations! I hope you have a long and happy life together.


To Tim King,

Thanks for the references on the Bible. I'll see if one of our local
libraries has them.


To everyone else,

Have a nice day :-)

jr

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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 19:05:27 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: GOP Convention: An Eyewitness Report

Hi, Bill:

Welcom back.  Congratulations to you and your party for a *great*
convention.  (By the way, there should be an "e" up there; guess
I'm not as big a Quayle fan as I thought.)

I would be very interested in your impressions of the Prolife
function you went to, especially the content of the speeches
that were given.

I don't think you mentioned it, but did you go to the prayer
breakfast after all?  (If it's the same one I saw on tv, I
thought Quayle's comments were wonderful.)

Have a rest, and get back to me.

Thanks,

Love INC,
         --Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: danderso@nmsu.edu (David Anderson)
Subject: Re: homosexuality
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Distribution: bit.listserv.christia
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:12:22 GMT

     After reading all the posts about homosexuality I had decided to
find all of the verses in the New Testament regarding this topic and
put them in a note here on the net to open further discussion.  I
would first like to thank Bernice for preventing me from writing the
opening note with the excellent message she sent to Tim.  It is in the
'kinder, gentler' tone of Bernice's message that I leave these verses.

Romans 1:18-32
I Corinthians 6:9
II Timothy 3:1-7

I pray that these verses will help shed some light on the Biblical
view of homosexuality.

BTW... if anyone wants me to post the verses themselves instead of
just the references, just mail me a note and I'll be happy to do it.

In His service,

David
danderso@nmsu.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:26:48 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: moral values

>This morning I happened to catch the Montel Williams show.  They were
>talking about kids, schools, and drugs.  There was this 19-year old
>girl behind the screen who was/is a drug pusher.  She merrily detailed
>how she entices high school and junior high kids by giving them some
>free drugs, hooking them, and making a killing (pun intended) on them
>afterward.  She talked about selling PCP, Herion, Crystal Meth, LSD,
>Mushrooms, Crack, Cocaine, and Prescription drugs.  She makes an
>average of $5000 a week.  She comes from a wealthy family, but her parents
>only pay her living expenses.  "I have to make my own money for myself,"
>she said.
>  A girl in the audience (14, maybe 15) stood up and asked "Don't you have
>any moral values?"
>  The girl behind the screen indignantly replied, "Of course I have moral
>values.  But this is a way to make money."

>  Don't tell me there isn't a problem out there.  And don't tell me that
>*this* is an example of "moral values."

I do think that there is a problem, but that doesn't mean that
this girl doesn't have morals.  She is making a living and
that is totally separate from morality.

My view of this is that morality is a view of the world that
guides and defines reality.  Her definition of reality is different
from the girl in the audience, but it is no less valid.

I define the standard morality of the average American to be something
like this:  don't lie; don't cheat; don't steal; respect authority;
do your best; be kind and generous to others.

I think that the drug seller could easily fall into most of the above
and then, her sense of morality may be a little different and may
even be a little harsher.

Json
>Love INC,
>         --Kerry
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:13:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Cameroon

In a message of Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:31:08 -0500
Received on Wed, 26 Aug 92 08:32 N
Mark <MWALDEN@MACALSTR.BITNET> wrote:

>Hi!  A question for all you out there:  I'm going to be spending the next four
>to five months in Cameroon on a study abroad program, part of which will be an
>independent project studying the Protestant church in Cameroon, particularly
>how it fits in with the rest of society.  I may also try to arrange a one-month
>or so internship at the end of my program.  Does anyone have any knowledge of
>churches or organizations in Cameroon I might be able to contact?

Two missionaries of our church are in Cameroon. One is in Yaounde and
the other lived in Bamenda, but now has moved to the north of the
country. They surely could give you more than enough addresses. One of
them currently is in Germany, so if you would tell me where you will be
staying I'll see what I can do for you.

Wolfgang <><
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From: carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson)
Subject: Re: Sponged [was Re:      Re: homosexuality]
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 11:51:51 GMT

 In article <BtxJnA.7vH@acsu.buffalo.edu>, psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss) writes:
|> 
|> 	I would be hesitant to refer someone to Spong's work to see 
|> what his "interpretation" of Scripture is. Spong doesn't so much 
|> have a different interpretation of Scripture as much as he *dismisses*
|> Scripture.
|> 
|> 	I have read some of Boswell, but I am not fresh enough to 
|> comment on him. Spong was recently discussed in Christia, and I 
|> found the following in the Christia database:
|> 
|> 
|> >>> Item number 7291, dated 92/03/08 22:29:00 -- ALL
|> Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1992 22:29:00 EST
|> 
|> [...]
|> 
|>      For those that are not aware, in _Living in Sin?_ (Harper, 1988),
|>      Spong argues that homosexual acts should not be considered as sin.
|> 
|>      Spong is also the author of _Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism_
|>      (Harper, 1991). In this work, Spong posits that the miraculous works of
|>      Jesus are myth (pp 129-33, pp 143-44), that the Gospel of John doesn't
|>      contain a single word that was spoken by Jesus (p 191), he teaches that
|>      the Bible presents a nationalistic, sadistic God that Spong "cannot
|>      respect, much less worship" (p.24; cf. p.17, p20), that the Gospels
|>      present a Jesus who is sometimes "narrow-minded, vindictive, and even
|>      hypocritical" (p.21), that the "list of objectionable passages could be
|>      expanded almost endlessly" (p.20), and unbelievable things "are
|>      discoverable and present in almost every part of the Bible" (p.150).
|> 
|>      I realize that Louie pointed readers to _Living in Sin?_ and not to
|>      _Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism_. However, I think that
|>      pointing to what Spong teaches will help one to discern whether he is a
|>      teacher of truth or an apostate teacher.
|> 
|>

I hope that those interested in this discussion will not take the above
quotes lifted at random from the book as a representative example of Spong's
beliefs and writings.  I have read both books in question and was, more than
anything else, impressed with Spong's love of and reverence for Scripture.
I have also met Bishop Spong and had a chance to hear for myself what he
says on these issues.  I was impressed.

-- 



*************************************************      
*Dr. Ann B. Carlson (carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov)*       O .
*MS 366                                         *         o  _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center                   *          <`)=  _<<
*Hampton, VA 23681-0001                         *             \\\  \\
*************************************************
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 11:46:05 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: GOP Convention: The Setting

Marty says,
>         Yvette,
>
>         You repeat the common charge that George Bush lied when he said,
>         "Read my lips.  No new taxes."  As I said several months ago,
>         before you joined the list, when this came up, he did not. At
>         least there is no evidence that he did.  A lie is a statement
>         that the speaker knows or believes to be contrary to fact.  (If X
>         is true, someone who sincerely but mistakenly believes Not-X to
>         be true but who says X is true is morally guilty of lying even
>         though his statement that X is true is correct.)  There is no
>         evidence that George Bush did not mean what he said when he said
>         "No new taxes."  He later changed his mind, which is okay.  He
>         also broke a promise, which is not okay.  However, he did not
>         lie.
Marty,
I am sorry but this does not hold water, George Bush is intelligent
enough to know that he was going to have to raise taxes, he just lied
to get elected, just like he is doing now. George knew it, and all those
high priced speech writers knew it. They also knew that was what the
American people wanted to hear. I didn't believe him then and I don't
believe him now. 'Changed his mind, which is okay', yeah right..

>
>         Virtually every politician has, at one time or another, broken a

>         political promise.  (The expressions "Political promise" or
>         "campaign promise" generally mean promises that no one expects to
>         be kept.)  President Woodrow Wilson campaigned for re-election on
>         the slogan "He kept us out of war," referring to World War I.
>         After he was re-elected the United States entered WWI.  President
>         Franklin Roosevelt promised that no American soldiers would fight
>         in what we now call World War II.  We did fight in WWII.  Circum-
>         stances changed.  This does not make what Bush did right, but it
>         does set it into context.  I am not familiar with the details of
>         why Bush broke his promise.  I think it was part of deal with the
>         given in but had taken his case directly to the American people,
>         but I wasn't there.
>
>         Marty Helgesen

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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From: jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu (john russell)
Subject: Pat Robertson and feminism
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:32:06 GMT

Kerry,

I believe this particular letter was specifically in regard
to the passage of an ERA amendment to the Iowa constitution,
which he is lobbying against. I don't know the specific 
wording of this particular bill, but if it is anything like
the ERA amendment proposed in the '70's, it is nothing more
than a bill banning discrimination in all areas due to gender.

If you or anyone does know the specific text of the Iowa bill,
I'd appeciate a posting (or direct email to me). 

BTW, how are you defining "radical feminism"? Hillary Clinton?
or the _real_ left-wing radical fringe? (In what sense were
_you_ a radical feminist?) Just askin'.

jr
jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu

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Organization: Samford University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:14:49 CDT
From:         Renee Autry <SRAUTRY@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Radical Feminism

I also would like to know how Mr. Robertson defines "radical feminism" as
MANY  people are in support of this bill (like people in my church - male
and female - and *I* would not classify any of them as radical feminists).
Anybody know what Mr. Robertson means?


                                      Renee
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 13:24:01 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Catholics Being Born Again

Hi Marty, I want to join in with Renee in thanking for answering all of
the questions that have been put forth so far.  Now, I finally have a
question.
At what point in the Baptism to confirmation period,does a Catholic
become Born Again. I am referring to Jesus and Nicodemus (John 3:3)
conversation.

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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