HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows)
Subject: Questions about Pern, _Rescue_Flight_
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 15:26:21 GMT


I have a few questions about Pern; since I have class in 10 minutes
I'll have to make this fast.

First, in the latest Science-Fiction Book Club catalog/pamphlet, 
I noticed a new Pern novella, called _Rescue_Flight_, taking place
49 years after _Dragonsdawn_.  Since it's only $7.00 and I'm a 
Pern fanatic, I'm ordering it.  I really hope it explains how Pern
could remain lost for thousands of years after colonization.  I 
really do hope Anne McCaffrey doesn't resort to a "quarantine."        
That idea is so OLD...

Okay.  The questions.

A dragon's tissue is different from ours.  For example, they have
copper-based blood while we have iron-based blood.  Fire lizards, 
wherries, whers, and whersports presumably have the same blood types. 
So, how can dragons (with their copper-based blood) eat herdbeasts
(with their presumably iron-based blood), and how can humans eat
whersports and wherries?  'Twould seem to me to be a lot of incom-
patibility there.

Another thing: It should be possible, by taking it in steps, to go
BETWEEN time thousands of years back, to when the colonists first
landed, etc.  After all, Jaxom went back several hundred years in  
_All_the_Weyrs_of_Pern_...why couldn't some other dragonrider do
it?  Be kind of interesting to see...

And that's all I have time for...      

--
Chris Meadows  | Editor of Robotech: The Misfold; author of other               
CHM173S@SMSVMA | Robotech/Rifts stories; DEFENDER of PALLADIUM BOOKS!!!         
CHM173S@VMA.SMSU.EDU   | "Computer, you and I need to have a little             
CMEADOWS@NYX.CS.DU.EDU | talk..." --Chief O'Brien, DEEP SPACE NINE
From: wilder@nx02.mik.uky.edu (jeff wilder)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Ambiguous Covers
Date: 10 Jan 93 23:44:24 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Path: nx02.mik.uky.edu!wilder

In <C0nu9s.5H4@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> gmills@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (MILLS G - CHEMICAL ENG.) writes:

|>|> Maybe we can start a new thread.  Can anyone think of a cover/blurb
|>|> combination that led you to think a book was SF (or fantasy) when it
|>|> was actually fantasy (or SF)?

|>Anne McCaffrey's DelRey _Dragonriders_of_Pern_ paperbacks are pretty
|>ambiguous.  Flaming dragons?  In fact, _The_White_Dragon_ describes
|>itself on the back cover as "A fantasy of a time when..." or something
|>like that.  The books are pretty solidly SF.  (Whether they're *good*
|>SF or not is up to the individual. :-)

|When I talk to the uninitiated, I usually refer to a spectrum, with hard
|sf on one end and pure fantasy on the other.  Pern usually ends up in the
|center.  At the start of the series, it struck me as fantasy; only when
|they find the ships and start talking about the genetic manipulation of
|the fire lizards does it cross into sf in my mind.

I dunno...the first line in the book is something like, "Rukbat was a G
type star in the Saggitarian sector..."  Pretty strong indication of SF
right there, don'tcha think?  On the other hand...yeah, the covers would
certainly have a new reader expecting fantasy.  And that's what we're
talking about, right?

|As for misleading covers, one of the early printings of "The Many Colored
|Land" struck me as pretty strong fantasy.  Don't remember the blurb tho. 
|I read it only after several, trustworthy reco's.

_The_Many_Colored_Land_ *definitely* struck me as fantasy.  Like you, it
took me a while to convinve myself to read it (but am I glad I did!).  In
fact, I'd put the Milieu more in the "gray area" of SF-Fantasy than I
would Pern, even though it definitely uses SF devices.  Julian May was
incredibly successful (IMO) at leaving the reader with a sense of the
surreal, which contributed to the fantasy feel.

--
==============================================================================
| Jeff W  uk06666@ukpr.uky.edu | Meddle not in the affairs of cats, for they |
| Wilder  & wilder@mik.uky.edu | are subtle, and will piss on your cyberdeck.|
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bidelen@cs.few.eur.nl (Otto Delen)
Subject: Spellfire
Organization: Erasmus Universiteit Rotterdam
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:24:14 GMT


Hi everybody,


I recently read a book called "spellfire" written by Ed Greenwood. 
Have you ever heard of it, read it in particular and does anybody else 
know if and when volume 2 will be released, or other books with the same
characters.


Thanx in advance

Otto.
-- 

" The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long. "
From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Gripping Hand
Date: 12 Jan 93 15:07:22
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at's message of 10 Jan 93 17:48:42 GMT

In article <6290@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at> mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner) writes:

   From article <=_#311b@rpi.edu>, by kasprj@vccnw03.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak):
   >  Niven has given Man-Kzin Wars his stamp of approval, so we can consider 
   > them to be canon.

   >  Also, there are hints in that series that the Kzinti breeding patterns 
   > have actually produced females who are good at hiding their intelligence,
   > or who use it for different things, rather than being nonsentient. Of 
   > course the Kzinti males would never bring themselves to admit this...

   Unfortunately that has no bearing on the current thread, since the
   ideas in that series are not Niven's.

Irrelevant in either case, the "breeding for docility" among Kzinti
is explicit in Ringworld Engineers (whatsisface stranded on the copy
of Kzin in the great sea is surprised to find the females intelligent
and proactive).

|  Steinn Sigurdsson	|I saw two shooting stars last night		|
|  Lick Observatory	|I wished on them but they were only satellites	|
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware?		|
| "standard disclaimer"	|I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983	|
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: frank@fnbc.com (Frank Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Start alt.fantasy-- was Who killed SF?
Organization: First National Bank Of Chicago, Chicago IL, USA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 23:18:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.161456.6567@atlantis.uucp> aaron@atlantis.uucp writes:
> Be that as it may--my definition of SF was always "Speculative Fiction",  
which
> is the handy catch-all term for Science Fiction, Fantasy, Horror, Magic
> Realism, Alternate History, and anything that deviates from consensus
> reality. That's what >I< thought this group referred to, especially given the 
> lack of a corresponding fantasy group.

"Fantasy", to be taken literally, is "anything that deviates from consensus  
reality".  Thus Science Fiction can be thought of as a subset of fantasy --  
namely that which violates no known scientific or historical facts (except for  
special cases, like FTL and psionics.)  Alternate History can violate  
historical facts, but generally not scientific ones.

I shall pause for the collective scream of "BLASPHEMER!"

There now.

The genre usually called "Fantasy" (continues Professor Mitchell) is actually  
another specialization, "Heroic" or "Mythic" fantasy, the restriction here  
being that the fantasist must use elements from some cycle of myths and  
folktales -- elves, sorcerors, dragons, flying carpets, etc.

Nothing prevents a work from having both scientific and mythic motifs, so  
there's no way to classify every work as either (Mythic) "Fantasy" or Science  
Fiction.  The fact that marketroids decided to call "Fantasy" anything that  
isn't science fiction doesn't mean scence fiction isn't, itself, a form of  
fantasy.

So, either we let "sf" stand for Speculative Fiction (as a "respectable"  
synonym for fantasy), or we move everybody over to alt.fantasy (or  
alt.fantasy.*) ...

Any questions?  Class dismissed.

--
Frank Mitchell
email:frank@fnbc.com (NeXTmail)
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 9 Jan 93 04:26:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian):
>That's why so many books these days have lurid covers.

A that-reminds-me:  Patrick Woodroffe's "Mythopoeikon" includes a number
of his book covers.  One of these, the cover to Stableford's "The Face
of Heaven", is very subdued -- green, with a bit of yellow and black.
His accompanying comment is "A rare attempt at restraint, at least as
far as colour is concerned.  At the time I was not aware that retailers
generally consider green to be a slow-selling colour."

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   Aphorism is better than none.
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Crow's Friend Timmy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 10 Jan 93 05:24:50 GMT
Organization: Next Thursday A.D.

jmc@moose.uvm.edu (John M. Connors) writes:

>For the most part I agree, however, if you live in a small rural state 
>like Vermont, things are rather different.  We have been 'graced' by a 
>Barnes & Noble 'Baby' SuperStore.  Barnes & Noble have brought a huge
>variety of books to Vermont that *would not* have found their way to 
>the shelves.

SuperStores may well turn out to be the savior of the backlist, which is
where all the older books go to die, and far too often, do. Since they demand
a wider range of material, it's hoped they'll create a demand for stuff
that'll help keep things in print longer.

I'm hopeful. On the other hand, these are the same chains who's predatory
buying practices helped kill the backlist in the firfst place, so I'm not
confident that they won't just find a way to screw it up in different ways.

-- 
            Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX)
                      Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms
                chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ 

          I'm history! No! I'm mythology! Whatever, I'm outta here!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: farrell@coral.cs.jcu.edu.au (John Farrell)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Organization: James Cook University
Date:  7 Jan 93 23:37:20 GMT


In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu>, williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) writes:
> It is sad.  I can actually remember being able to WAIT IN ANTICIPATION FOR THE
> NEXT Philip K Dick to come out.  Can any claim now to be waiting for anything
> that momentous?

  No I can't, not now that Xenocide has come out. Maybe one day it will even
be available in Australia.

Friendless
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Red electrons (was Re: easy-to-confuse author names (was Re: New...))
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:14:53 GMT

higgins@fnalo.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey):
>>>Right.   Without green, only red electrons and blue electrons will hit
>>>the screen. The image is rendered in reds, blues, and shades of purple
>>>(maroon is somewhere between red and purple).
>> 
>>"Red electrons" and "blue electrons"?!  How did you ever get a job there?
>
>When did the Naval Academy start hiring faculty with no sense of humor?

I don't see where humor comes in.  Obviously the electrons which move
towards the screen will be blue-shifted while those which hit it while
moving away will be red-shifted.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   The inability of snakes to count is actually a refusal, on their part,
    to appreciate the Cardinal Number system. -- "Actual Facts"
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 7 Jan 1993 20:32:25 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu>  
williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) writes:
> I go to book stores.  I go to the library, and only rarely do I  
find anything
> worth buying and reading.  What is all this crap that clogs the  
shelves???

This is nonsense. There is probably as much good NEW stuff on
the shelves as ever.  There's more crap, but then there's
more of all new stuff. The big gap is in reprints: far less of
the old stuff is being reprinted. But this isn't because new
stuff is forcing it out of print but because of tax laws.
 
> Here is my list of suspects:
> 
> All those nitwits who write endless fantasy series.
> 
> Star Trek Crap.  Enough already!  They've made a frigging
> cult from a second rate space opera on TV.

First off, I don't think you are using the term "space opera"
the way most people use it.  Most of Star Trek (especially
most of the current series) just doesn't fit the category.

But the Star Trek stuff is not driving out new good SF any more
than the endless Conan and Burroughs reprints did 15 years ago.

> 
> Fantasy Body Snatchers.  Roger Zelazny and U K Leguin used
> to write great books before they got into the fantasy dodge.  Wake  
up!
> 

What dodge? Le Guin's fantasy is very good. 

> Assembly line writers.  Especially the journeymen who they
> hire to produce more product in the style and universe of
> a famous author.
> 
> Publishers who pay the big bucks for this crap.  How do they sleep  
at night?

Well, first off, it sells. All publishers need a few big sellers
to help offset any possible losses they may incur if they take
a chance with a good new writer.

 
> L. Ron Hubbard.  Excuse me, Mr. Fat Boy Cult leader, but who asked  
you to
> write Science Fiction again?  And isn't he DEAD??? WHY DO THEY KEEP  
PRINTING
> BOOKS???

Bridge has megabucks, that's why.  They don't print anything
but Hubbard though, so what difference does it make.

> 
> All of the Unicorn and fake medievalist readers who have an  
insatiable appetite
> for the STOOPIDIST POSSIBLE Trash.
> 
> It is sad.  I can actually remember being able to WAIT IN  
ANTICIPATION FOR THE
> NEXT Philip K Dick to come out.  Can any claim now to be waiting  
for anything
> that momentous?

How about the next Michael Bishop?  The next Kim Stanley
Robinson?  The next Bruce Sterling?  The next Greg Bear?
The next Robert Silverberg?  There are lots and lots of good
writers who are still going strong.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Gripping Hand
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:41:27 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <C0K1qL.D1w@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, by jroberts@morpheus.UWaterloo.ca (J. P. Robertson):
> Puppeteers repropduce in a rather complex fashion, as I recall.  I think
> it was in Ringworld Engineers we learn that there are three sexes, one
> of which is non-sentient.  Call the two sentients male and female.  

Wasn't the hindmost female?

> Teela Brown was far from helpless, though her luckiness may be a special case.

Yes, she was effectively portrayed as the hapless follower of her own
luck.  Not very enticing.

> IMHO, I would rather read him than any so-called feminist
> author

A sweeping statement of the same category as the one you're defending
Niven against.

-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Re: sf writers on tv (was Re: William Gibson's Most Famous Quote Ruined By Technology...
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 09:46:22 GMT

In article <JET.93Jan4170322@boxer.nas.nasa.gov>
     jet@boxer.nas.nasa.gov (J. Eric Townsend) writes:

>"elf" == Elf Sternberg <elf@halcyon.com> writes:

>elf>    You know what the color of television, tuned to a dead
>elf> channel, is in the future?

>elf>    Clear sky blue.

>Not always.

   Yeah, I know.  But that seems to be, in many cases, the factory
setting, and when I first saw it Gibson's quote ran straight through my
head and I collapsed, laughing.  It just so invalidating of what Gibson
tried to say; it almost makes Neuromancer a "dead" novel, in that
nobody in the future will really understand exactly what Gibson meant
by that first sentence, which has so much impact on us today.

      Elf !!!
--
elf@halcyon.com  (Elf Sternberg)

Then, I was inspired.               God, thy will is hard
Now, I'm sad and tired.             But you hold every card.
Listen, surely I've exceeded        I will drink your cup of poison.
Expectations.                       Nail me to your cross and break me.
Tried for three years,              Bleed me, beat me.
Seems like thirty.                  Kill me.
Could you ask as much               Take me now.
From any other man?                 Before I change my mind.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Michael McCollum
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 06:52:49 GMT

What about _A Greater Infinity_?  He sort of ended that one on a cliff-
hanger.


Paul Ciszek                      No nation was ever drunk when wine
                                 was cheap.
pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu                            --Thomas Jefferson
From: ig25@fg70.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Date: 8 Jan 1993 22:42:05 GMT
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Reply-To: ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
NNTP-Posting-Host: fg70.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de

In article <ABL.93Jan8201842@cybill.inesc.pt> abl@cybill.inesc.pt (Antonio Leal) writes:
>ig25@fg70.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig) writes:
[...]
>> Also, try reading the "History and Moral Philosophy" lessons with a view
>> to current events in Yugoslavia, and tell me wether "ethnic cleansing"
>> would be justified under these principles.
>
>Any point in particular ? 
[...]
"All wars are the result of population pressure" sounds a bit like that,
as does the part where he concludes that "there is only a limited amount of
real estate in the Galaxy, and one day it is going to belong to us or
the Bugs", so the war against them would be justified no matter what (of
course, in the book, the Bugs also were the agressors, but that's the
author's privilege :-)
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16917 rec.arts.books:23761
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: amclintock@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Cray Communications, Alex McL")
Subject: Re: Wild Cards in January
Reply-To: amclintock@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 12:59:00 +0000


> New WildCards book to be a single author book...

No please no. Melinda's Book wasn't anything 
like as good as the mosaics. 

Mr Martin please return to the multiple author format!

AlexMC

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rcj@engin.umich.edu (R o d Johnson)
Subject: Re: Amber: Triumphant Conclusion?!
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 17:47:25 EST
Organization: Lost Tribes of Gazebo

In article <ROTEN.93Jan8162119@cuba.gsfc.nasa.gov> roten@cuba.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Roten) writes:

>I read the first five books in the series, more than 20 years ago.  The 

Good trick.  The third wasn't even published until 1975.  What's your
secret? 

-- 
       Rod Johnson  *  rcj@caen.engin.umich.edu  *  (313) 764-3103
    
                "What I do doesn't happen in a warehouse"
                                          --Jim Dickinson
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: user@computer.uio.no (PC Jorgensen)
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell (was: Re: Political Correctness + Sci-fi)
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: UiO
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 21:40:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.181739.14992@kth.se>, f87-mol@alv.nada.kth.se (Magnus
Olsson) wrote:

> When American sf gets rid of the Campbell influence, it will be something to
> celebrate. The fellow did the genre almost as much harm as Gernsback did.
> Fortunately, his influence was limited to the U.S. -- in the rest of the 
> world you could actually write literate sf even in the forties. We've come
> a long way since.
> 
> Magnus Olsson (f87-mol@nada.kth.se)



Pray tell me more about literate, non-American sf from the forties... As
far as 
I know, most of the Scandinavian sf of that time is abysmal pulp, but if
you
have a large quantity of  Swedish masterpieces ready, please give me a tip!

It seems to me that you have fallen into the same trap as your compatriot
Sam
J. Lundwall, who (I suspect that it was for political reasons) sometimes
seemed
to detest everything written in the fair Anglo-Amercan language and
extolled 
a lot of at best indifferent stories from other places (Yugoslavia, Soviet
Union, Paraguay etc. etc. etc.), stories which sometimes were more old-
fashioned than the stories they were said to be superior to.

As for Campbell, I have read some of his short stories, and they have a 
"modern" flavour, sometimes more modern than that of his writers, and they
are
usually well written. His influence on sf was partly positive in that he
drew a line between "his" brand of speculative fiction and pure pulp. His 
"no sex"-stand might be explained as a means of avoiding the sleaze that 
(some)publishers probably would like him to print [it always sells well,
 y'know].

This is not to say that I want to make him a shining Forefather Figure,
like
every so-called Big Man, he certainly had his faults, as a man and in his
professional life.


Yours, PC

----------------------------------

fandom-sitat for denne uke:

- Varfoer aer du med haer?

S. Haegg: - Jag gillar flickor och raketer.

- SVT1, 1985

-----------------------------------  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler)
Subject: Capitol S.F.?
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 02:58:54 GMT


  A weird request:
 Can anyone give me the names of fantasy or science fiction books set in
Washington, D.C.?
  Many thanx.
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki)
Subject: Re: Ambiguous Covers
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 05:27:12 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.010001.1658@sfu.ca> knott@sfu.ca (Dave Knott) writes:
[about _Enders Game_ covers being misleading]

It was Card that wrote in his introduction to _The Worthing Saga_:
". . . if there is a scene in a novel which, if depicted on the cover,
would destroy the effectiveness of the book, that is the scene
that will appear on the cover."

(Sorry if this has already been quoted, but I just read things written
about two months ago, I just decided to 'c'atch up.)

OTOH, I have seen some covers that I absolutely LOVED.  Recently,
_The Garden of Rama_, I love detailed artwork like that, sometimes
I notice small details on the cover _years_ after I've read the 
book (at which point I precede to read the book again, I think
it's my fatal flaw. :)  By no means is _Garden_ the best I've
ever seen, just the first thing that came to my mind (ok, I confess
it's the first thing I _saw_ on my bookshelf that I liked)

>Dave Knott
>KNOTT@SFU.CA 


--Jason Balicki
kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu