HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 02:59:33 GMT

horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
#hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

[Deleted]

#You piece of trash...

[Deleted]

#Criminals stay criminals (and like you, assholes remain assholes)

[Deleted]

Is it just my imagination, or isn't TPM that haven of friendship,
tolerance, and brotherly love it used to be?

-Danny Keren.



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 22:48:38 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.030047.11491@rs.com>, horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
writes:

[nonsense deleted]


|>>Who was it that was asking for more of the ideas like Ghandis?
|>
|>I dunno, but it certainly wasn't Ghandi's children!

Bzzzttt!!! Wrong!!!!

Indira and Rajiv were no relation whatsoever to the Mahattma. They were
descended from Pandit Nehru.

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 22:22:02 GMT
Originator: michaelp@trantjern.ifi.uio.no


In article <BuHHAo.CMr@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v053qhyx@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Jeremy A Berger) writes:
> In article <1992Sep12.200154.7725@ifi.uio.no>, michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger) writes...
> > 
> >In article <1992Sep10.180958.26254@discus.technion.ac.il>, davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:> 
> >                                  .
> >                                  .
> > 
> >> I think that not killing Saddam Husein (or at least trying the best to
> >> do it) was a MAJOR mistake , again motivated by stupid righteousness
> >> and incompetence.
> > 
> >Quarreling about what is right or what is wrong is one thing. Moral is relative.
> > 
> >But believing that Saddam still sitting as president is a "mistake
> >motivated by stupid righteousness" of the U.S is to my opinion very naive.
> > 
> >Nothing "righteous" in Saddam still in power. It is a practical choise done by
> >the U.S thinking mostly about Turkey and the Curdish problem in the north, and
> >Shia moslems in the south. After killing 250000 to punish Iraq and
> >Saddam, Saddam is still the best choice for the U.S. 
> > 
> >No mistakes. The word is interests.
> > 
> >Michael
> 
> 
> One of the major worries of desert storm was that of someone more radical than
> husein taking power if his "unfortunate" death were to happen.  Or of Husein 
> being used as a morter and of getting a greater anti-U.S. sentiment in the 
> region..

I  often get puzzled by this use of terminology. I dont know. It smells like
fearing to admit that the U.S with its constitution, democracy, values and so on 
sometimes makes cold considerations.

Those who should get anti U.S sentiments are not forgiving the U.S due to its
not killing Saddam after all. 

Besides, what's "radical" ? Is there something more radical than gassing Curds in
there villages?

The fact is that it was in the U.S. *INTEREST* letting Saddam stay in power.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:36:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.071520.1472@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:

# In article <18od2jINNquh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:

# >In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:

# >>>Even though the arabs were a majority, there was no indication of permanancy.
# >>>I may reside in  Illinois, but since I have not shown a tendency toward 
# >>>permanancy, I am not considered a resident.  The Moselms never established
# >>>any provincial centers, Islamic schools, or any significant institutions in
# >>>Palestine.  They were there only by convinience, the convinience being that
# >>>massive Jewish immigration provided job oppurtunities in a financially
# >>>depressed area.

# >>Hogswill.  All this sort of crap has been pushed here before, but nobody
# >>ever provided evidence.  Can you?  

# >Take a look at "From Time Immemorial."

# And after you look at "From Time Immemorial", which many scholars have
# repudiated as being based on false information and has been highly
# criticized, read the book "Blaming the Victims" by E. Said and C.
# Hitchens.  This book explains how inaccurate "Immemorial" was in 
# a very detailed and convincing way.


	There has been work. some of it published by Commentary magazine,
showing how "Blaming the Victims" and other criticisms of "From Time
Immemorial" are nonsense.

	Oh, by the way, when you read "Blaiming the Victims", pay caareful
to the part(s?) written by David Finklestein.  Steve Goldfield posted
them to the net a while back, and the figures he gave not only did not
support his conclusions, but actually made a stronger than what Joan
Peters was atttempting to make.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 23:10:02 GMT

In article <18tbe5INN946@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan
|>In a previous article, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker) says:
|>
|>>
|>>That is precisely the point at issue. In a democracy where everyone is equal
|>>there can be no laws supporting cultural hegemony. All this "we are a
|>democracy
|>>BUT..." business just doesen't wash. You can fool yourself about it but you
|>>won't fool anyone else.
|>
|>You don't seem to understand the nature of democracy.  In a democracy, the
|>majority rules.  Usually, there are limitations on democracy to protect the
|>rights of various minority groups--that's what our Constitution is all
|>about--but there is nothing inherently incompatible with having laws which
|>are not completely religion blind in a democracy.

This is evasion #2, "We may not be a proper democracy but then again nobody else
is either".

I do not in fact regard the USA as a particular paragon in democratic matters.
Until the 60s and Martin Luther King there was not an awful lot of democracy in
the US South. 


|>Actually, the situation in Israel is, in practice, very similar to the
|>reality here, where the laws are, by and large, framed to the desires of
|>Christians.  Did you ever claim that we weren't a democracy when almost
|>every state had blue laws?  Do you believe that the fact that a Christian
|>holiday, Christmas, has been made into a national holiday makes us
|>undemocratic?  How about when the military wouldn't allow an orthodox Jew
|>to wear his yarmulke?  Are we undemocratic because of that?

Yes when every state had blue laws there were many states which had "Litteracy
tests" which were instituted with the express intention of denying the franchise
to Blacks.

In the same way it is undemocratic when the political system is predicated on
special treatment for one culture and there is no constitutional means of
changing that special treatment.

The UK at present has a special consitutional position for the State religion,
the Anglican Bishops sit in the House of Lords. However there is no law that
makes the formation of a political party with the aim of changing this special
constitutional position illegal nor is there a ban on them standing for
parliament. In fact there is such a party.

Personally I would like to see the disestablishment of the Church, this is
especialy justified now that practicing Catholics outnumber practicing
Anglicans. However the real question revolves arround what political aims are
permissable within the democratic system. If the principle of equal treatment of
all people is not a political aim which may be persued by constitutional means
then the constitution is unjust and the democracy is one of form and not
substance.

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19844 talk.politics.soviet:7833 soc.culture.greek:8739 soc.culture.europe:8294 soc.history:8180
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: The result of watching "dcs.glasgow.mid-morning.express porno" movie. 
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:56:51 GMT


In article <10046@jthome.uucp> dtyler%jt_home.uucp@amber.athena.lkg.dec.com (David Tyler) writes:

>I have heard some talk about Multu changing his name on this group, can
>anybody fill me in on what's going on?. I'm kind of in the dark about this
>whole thing!. By the way, can anybody fill me in on what is REALLY going on

That is the result of watching "dcs.glasgow" "mid-morning express porno" 
movie too much.

Source: Jorge Blanco Villalta, 'Ataturk,' TKK, Ankara, 1979, pg. 234.
     
"They [Armenians] did not refrain from giving in to their racial 
 hatred and committing acts of cruelty and massacres against the
 Moslem population, which were encouraged by the 'Tashnak' party,
 mortal enemies of Turkey."


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship,soc.rights.human,alt.discrimination
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Islamic Fundamentalism in Egypt Targets Christians as it Did Jews
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 01:59:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug30.015355.8853@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>
>I have as little time for Jake's hate posts against arabs as I have for
>those of Mutlu or ARF.

Seeing as I posted the article ENTIRELY from the New York Times, that
bastion of racism and hatred against Arabs, perhaps you should address
your comaprisons and concerns to them.  I would be pleased to get you
their address.

Mutlu's stupidities have gone into my kill-file long ago.  Are your
stupidities going in next, Phill?


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Reply-To: horen@rs.com
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:08:18 GMT

In article 22576@ncsu.edu, hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.182251.132@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com
>(Jake Livni) writes:
>> [...] 
>> In some places, writing silly stories about the Prophet Mohammed is 
>> a crime punishable by death.  In other places, it is entirely legal 
>> to write such stories.   In Iran, it is even illegal to write such
>> things in OTHER places!  
>
>Presumably you are referring to Salman Rushdie. I am sure that you are
>aware that the declaration against him was made by a religious figure
>acting in a religious capacity. If the Iranian government wanted Rushdie
>dead he might very well be dead by now. Indeed Rafsanjani's government
>has declared that it has no desire to kill Rushdie. 

We have witnessed many times how fundamentalist-Muslims, responding to
the declarations of religious figures acting in a religious capacity,
have become the (un)witting agents of their civilian government through
those very responses.

For example: on two separate occasions fundamentalist-Muslim policemen
in Egypt's Sinai Penninsula held a busload of Israeli tourists hostage
at gunpoint for prolonged periods of time, without giving them benefit
of either food or water, ultimately killing and wounding men, women,
and children.

On neither occasion were the "policemen" killed by Egyptian
anti-terrorist squads, nor were they subjected to military or civilian
trial-and-punishment.

By way of contrast, remember that the members of a group of
mixed-religious-and-secular extremists during the early 1980s, led by
Yehuda Etzion, were caught-tried-and-convicted of criminal offenses and
personal injury against the mayors of a number of West-Bank villages
(among them Bassam Shak'a), and served substantial time in prison.


 +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
 | Jonathan B. Horen      | I have three principles:                   |
 | SysAdmin/TechWriter    |   NO to 2 million Palestinian citizens!    |
 | email: j.horen@rs.com  |   NO to a Palestinian state!               |
 | Tel:   (415) 856-8000  |   NO to a withdrawal to '67!               |
 |                        |            -- Yitzhak Rabin, Israeli PM    |
 +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 10 Sep 1992 21:01:06 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:

>
>>Even though the arabs were a majority, there was no indication of permanancy.
>>I may reside in  Illinois, but since I have not shown a tendency toward 
>>permanancy, I am not considered a resident.  The Moselms never established
>>any provincial centers, Islamic schools, or any significant institutions in
>>Palestine.  They were there only by convinience, the convinience being that
>>massive Jewish immigration provided job oppurtunities in a financially
>>depressed area.
>
>Hogswill.  All this sort of crap has been pushed here before, but nobody
>ever provided evidence.  Can you?  

Take a look at "From Time Immemorial."
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: ARF on Clinton/Gore
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:52:01 GMT

f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
#writes a lengthy text abusive of Jack Schmidling.

What's abusive about quoting *his very own words* on various articles?

#I found Schmidling's article interesting and informative.  I personally

I found it a piece of trash. "The friends of Israel control the entire
state of NY..." give me a break.

#don't care if ARF sings the Internationale (ultra-left) while saluting
#a swastika (ultra-right) [both of which I seriously doubt] if he presents
#his ideas with clarity.
#	I too find the influence of AIPAC and the past history of US-Israeli
#relations oftentimes disturbing...threatening peace in the Middle East

That's compeltely valid.

#and unduly burdening the stressed-out US taxpayer.  I beieve, however, that
#intelligent and thought-provoking commentary is what leads to useful
#ideas and productive action.  I failed to find any in Keren's post...only
#vituperaton for Mr. Schmidling.

I am tired of answering his lunatic rants. I simply expose his as the
racist hate monger that he is, using, as I said, his own quotes. There
is no substance in his posters to answer to. My opinion of him as a racist
and hate-monger was not formulated only from reading his posters on
usenet, but also from some lengthly e-mail exchanges I had with him; I
am not going to post from it as its a violation of nettiquete. He
is an animal and he is probably too old to change, a hope I had while
corresponding with him.

#	We do need a better and "mutually" beneficial policy with the
#state of Israel.  One other comment:  I don't in any way feel that to
#take issue with policies of the state of Israel or with AIPAC in any way
#suggests anti-semitism.  

Where did I say that criticizing Israel implies antisemitism?? 

#I find it disgusting that variance of opinion
#is often tagged as such.  Citizens of Israel are often at variance with
#Israeli government policy.  

As an Israeli (and American) citizen, I couldn't agree more.


-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Human Rights in Occupied Territorie
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:27:11 GMT

In article <1483500296@igc.apc.org> pnmideast@igc.apc.org writes:
>HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES
>Speech by Leah Tsemel

>occupying both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. In this
>situation, Israel is preventing the self-determination of the
>Palestinians - and here we are talking about close to one third of
>the total population, close to two million people, and we are
>talking about the longest occupation in modern history.

Tibet. The Baltic states. Those two Islands on the north end of Japan,
that Russia still occupies.  Typical leftist to forget facts.  "we are
talking about the third, or maybe fourth longest occupation in modern
history" just doesn't carry the same bite, so she revises the facts.


>Israel totally ignores all international covenants, including the
>Geneva Convention for Times of War, which relates to occupation,
>and all regulations governing the behavior of the occupier. Israel
>has not adopted the Geneva Convention, saying that her presence in
>the West Bank and Gaza Strip is not to be considered as
>occupation. She says she has liberated these territories.

Would you care to rebuke that position, or are all your leftist
freinds just saying "mm-hmm," and agreeing with you?

>
> I can point out enormous buildings that used to be hospitals, and
>are now used by the Israeli army, as prisons or as military
>centres.

Please do so.  Hospital beds per 1000 have nearly tripled since 1967.
1/3 as many babies die in their first year.  Average lifespan has
increased faster than in Egypt or Syria.  The quality of medical
treatment has improved significantly.


>here, I remembered what happened to us in Israel during the Gulf
>War. It seems now - it was only at the beginning of the year, in
>mid-January but it seems now that it happened on another planet in
>another era. I can still picture myself running into the sealed
>room with gas masks, frightened, frightened. I remember the
>hysteria that we all felt around this war. And now it seems like
>artificially created fear, and it seems like a dream. I know it
>was artificial. But I'm afraid the explanation for this nightmare
>is that the world is in the midst of a wave of cynicism.

What was artificial about the fear?  The SCUDs weren't 100% natural?
The Mossad took over Iraqi TV and manufactured pictures of Saddam
threatning to destroy "half of Israel with chemical fire?"  

Is she seriously claiming that the reason she was afraid was because
the "world was in a wave of cynicism?"  Has this woman no connection
to reality?

Adam



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: greenie@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: ANOTHER Live Online Conference
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:37:16 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

Sorry about the last blunder... I got my wires crossed.  Here's the blurb
on the next conference...

----------------

I'm posting this message for the Conference Hosts;

The IDS World Network will be holding a "live", CB-Simulator chat conference
on the 1992 election and the candidates.  Topics currently being considered
include The Economy, Healthcare, Education, Family Values, Abortion, and
"World Leadership Role".


The *NEXT* discussion will be on Friday, September 11th, from 7:00 PM 
EST to 8:30 PM EST.  The topic will be: "The Economy"

We invite everyone to participate.  CB Chat discussions on the IDS World
Network are completely free.

To reach the IDS World Network, TELNET to ids.net [155.212.1.2].  If you have
an account already, you're all set, although you can apply for one by signing
on with GUEST as a username.

That's September 11th, 7PM EST on the IDS World Network CB Simulator.
telnet ids.net [155.212.1.2]
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Elghani flames again (JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN...)
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 04:48:59 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.202937.2413549@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.163007.489@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep14.064030.2503040@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep13.230113.16106@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>
>>>>In article <1992Sep12.081411.2405344@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:

>Apology accepted.  It takes a great person to apologize.  :)

Nonsense.  If we stopped flaming for a few minutes, it wouldn't.

>>>My interest in AMERICA is not only associated with the saftey of
>>>israel like some.  
>>
>>Niether is mine, and you're coming awfully close to anti-Semitism by
>>implying that Jews are more interested in Israel than the US.
>
>No.  I said "some" up there, read it.  I am not anti-semitic.  I have

Ok, since we're being reasonable (for once) let me explain why I take
offense even at the limited "some."  (which I did see)

Throughout the history of Jewery in Europe, Jews were seen as
different by the Christian majority.  They were not seen as normal, or
avarage.  They were different, and worshipped a different god.
They were often accused of being disloyal to their country.  My
grandfather, despite being born and raised in Russia, was never seen
by his neighbors as a Russian. He was a Jew. Different. Disloyal.
Persecuted for it.

When Israel was founded, the idea that Jews were somehow not loyal to
their country got a new focus; Israel.  Now there is somewhere to
point fingers.  Hes not a loyal American, hes loyal to Israel.  It
stinks of the old anti-Semitic accusations of disloyalty.  It stinks
of Nazis claiming that Jews can not be Germans.


>>lobby got him to sacrifice close to 500 American lives, and you don't
>>complain about their influence.

>I sure do,  why should we Americans die for some scum Emir?

(The you was used in the plural.  Arf, for example, doesn't complain
about  US involvement in Kuwait the way he does about US aid to
Israel.)



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast