Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 11:35:00 +0000


> +From         : carroll@ori.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
> +Subject      : Re: Conversion Question
> 
> In article <memo.731281@cix.compulink.co.uk> stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
> ]In-Reply-To: <1992Nov4.162107.16259@cbnews.cb.att.com> ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arth
ur S. Kamlet)
> ]
> ]] +From         : ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
> ]] +Subject      : Re: Conversion Question
> ]] 
> ]] In article <memo.729068@cix.compulink.co.uk> stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk writes
:
> ]] ]You say that the person is NO LONGER keeping MANY of the mitzvot,
> ]] ]from which one might infer that he or she at one time kept all the
> ]] ]mitzvot and still keeps some of them. If that is the case, then in
> ]] ]all probability the conversion would remain valid. The only way it
> ]] ]could be found to be invalid is if one of the conditions for
> ]] ]conversion was lacking at the time of the conversion, viz. the Beis
> ]] ]Din was not Kosher (eg. Conservative), ...
> ]] 
> ]] I try hard not to let my anger get the best of me,  but why does the
> ]] author have to go out of his was to provoke so many people?
> ]] 
> ]] Wasn't it sufficient to say "the Beis Din was not kosher" without
> ]] being insulting and political and wrong?
> ]
> ]I'm not trying to insult anybody, merely stating a fact.
> ]
> 
> Nonsense. 
> 
> You _deliberately_ went out of your way to add something to your post
> in order to make it pointedly insulting to a large number of your
> fellow Jews on the net. There was _no_ reason to go out of your way
> and point out your (unjustified) belief that Conservative conversion
> are invalid _unless_ you wanted to make an effort to insult and/or
> denigrate the Conservative readers on the net.

Are you saying that a conversion before a Conservative Beis Din would
be accepted by an Orthodox Beis Din? I really don't think it would;
certainly not in London and certainly it wasn't by Reb Moshe. I
therefore do not consider my belief to be unjustified. For that
reason, it was not meant as an insult, merely a statement of fact.


> ]] To state that a conservative Bet Din is not kosher is inflammatory,
> ]] insulting and wrong.  True, there are significant political issues
> ]] at stake, but they do not per se make a conservative Bet Din not
> ]] kosher.  What they do is, in practice, make a conservative
> ]] conversion much more difficult or near impossible to be accepted in
> ]] certain circles.  And many people will defend the politics as being
> ]] religious in nature.   I don't.
> ]
> ]Politics has nothing to do with it. My concern is strictly halachik
> ]and I claim for support the Teshuvos (Responsa) of Reb Moshe
> ]Feinstein z'tzl who in many of them stated that a conversion through
> ]a Conservative Beis Din was not a valid conversion. And anyone who
> ]thinks that Reb Moshe had any considerations other than halachik ones
> ]is completely misguided.
> ]
> 
> Pointing a finger at someone else and saying "He said it first, and
> you know that he didn't mean it as an insult" is hardly an excuse.

And just because I said it and not Reb Moshe is hardly an excuse for
accusing me of being deliberately insulting.

> Rabbi Feinstein was an excellent Rabbi. But I don't think that he
> would have defended your insulting post.

You don't? I would have to disagree on that.

>                                            Whether you believe that
> Conservative conversions are valid or not, to go out of your way to
> point out your belief *for no good reason* is deliberately insulting
> your fellow Jews. And that, my friend, is something which is *not*
> defensible halachically.

Belief doesn't come into it. The fact is that Conservative
conversions are not recognised by the Orthodox. If you find that fact
hard to swallow, well I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do about
it.

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Stephen (Yisroel) Phillips      Tel: 44-895-442141
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