HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons)
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Originator: dml@rabbit
Organization: Autonomous Systems, Philips Labs, Briarcliff Manor, NY
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:18:31 GMT


In article <1993Jan21.093652.6195@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan20.173334.16767@philabs.philips.com> dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons) writes:
|> >
|> >An the US is dealing with Native Rights issues today. The British government
|> >is not, as I have argued at length before.
|> >
|> The rough equivalent of 26 counties out of 32 is 38 states out
|> of 50. I see. So the USA is going to give 38 states back to the
|> Native Americans.
|> 
|> Matthew Huntbach
|> 

You have an interesting style of argument Matthew. Have I ever suggested
that the appropriate action for Britain to take is to give NI over
to a United Ireland? The last time you replied to my post on this
topic you launched into a speech about the uselessness of armed struggle
in NI; a topic which also had nothing in common with the message to which
you were replying. I have not advocated a united Ireland or an IRA coup. 

Slow down Matthew and read the messages *before* replying.

Since I prefer to believe the best of you, I'll repeat my argument.
NI has long been classified as a civil rights problem; more
accurately it is a native rights problem. The solution to stable
government of NI is to address this problem openly. My only comment
on the US, was that it *is* addressing its native rights problems
directly. Whether you or I think its doing a good job is quite a
different matter.

NI is a native rights problem because 70 years ago NI was set up as
a state in which Unionists would have a built-in majority. The only
role of the nationalist population was, apparently, to pad out the
state, since they were disenfranchised by the purpose built majority.
This is how the problem started.

If the world was fair and people were all reasonable, the Unionist
majority would support some form of power sharing for the 
disenfranchised minority. Apparently that has not happened.

In deference to the native rights origin of this problem, I believe
that the next action of the British government should be to take
unilateral action to restablize the statelet. I suggest a power
sharing arrangement that is immune to destruction by the Unionist
majority. I have described it in previous posts and I'd be glad to
discuss it. This newsgroup has a lot of postings on violence and
the rightness of wrongness of a united Ireland; it has precious
little discussion of power-sharing and more peaceful methods for
addressing NI.

Damian.
 

Damian.
-- 
_________________________________________________________________
         Damian M. Lyons | x6444 | dml@philabs.philips.com       
_________________________________________________________________ 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.EDU (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 02:30:31 EST

In article <30349@optima.cs.arizona.edu> gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.173334.16767@philabs.philips.com>, dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons) writes:
>> |> And America wouldn't be run by its native Amerindians but by
>> |> white settlers. Oh, it is. Oh.
>> 
>> An the US is dealing with Native Rights issues today. The British government
>> is not, as I have argued at length before.
>
> The US is doing what? Having lived in Arizona for some time now I think
>I can safely say that the US deals with Indian rights by refusing to allow
>them to run casinos, sending the FBI into take indian property and denying
>the vast majority of land claims that Native Americans make. I think it
>is safe to say that the Federal govt. deals with the Native American rights
>issues by effectively ignoring them with few exceptions.
>

I don't disagree with your overall point but I wonder about the casinos  
bit. Usually here in the Northeast it is the states that bitch about the
Casinos (example, here the Oneidas are setting up a casino, and there
is controversy over how much they should pay the state for police). The
casinos law is Federally mandated; the states, being the ones who did 
much of the land-grabbing around here, are the ones complaining.

Chris
From: mike@nuada.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Gaelic equivalent of Peter?
Date: 26 Jan 1993 20:32:27 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: mike@nuada.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.62

Peadar

I would mail this, but the original poster's news software is
broken, & the reply address is incomplete & unusable.
From: hamilk@einstein.phys.rpi.edu (Kenneth Andrew Hamilton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Scots Wedding
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:57:26 GMT
Reply-To: hamilk@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.


	I am getting married in May ( kind of soon, I know, but I only recently became aware of the existence of this group ), and I am trying to find information on how to give the service more of a Scottish tone.  Any information on books, people, etc, which would be good resources would be greatly appreciated by me.  It seems that there are very few books around here which outline Scots customs aside from bundling and drinking whisky, both of which I feel relatively competent in already.  Thanks.


					Ken
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: tnielson@mccoy (THORIN NIELSON)
Subject: Gaelic equivalent of Peter?
Organization: New Mexico State University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:02:47 GMT



That's my easy question.

Got an easy answer, post it or e-mail it directly and I'd be much  
appreciative.

Thorin Nielson --
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8832 soc.culture.british:19127
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Date: 21 Jan 1993 18:43:08 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Matthew Huntbach writes:
#>The rough equivalent of 26 counties out of 32 is 38 states out
#>of 50. I see. So the USA is going to give 38 states back to the
#>Native Americans.

Sure -- when the percentage of voters of aboriginal origin reaches 75%.
From: finlay_j@spcvxb.spc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: California who? Murrayfield what?
Date: 28 Jan 93 17:06:57 GMT
Organization: St. Peter's College, US

In article <C1J1Co.CC8@root.co.uk>, kieron@root.co.uk (Kieron Drake) writes:
> In <1993Jan25.105727.5003@spcvxb.spc.edu> finlay_j@spcvxb.spc.edu writes:
> 
>>In today's news from Liam Ferrie, mention is made of the Irish
>>performance at Murrayfield last weekend. Our man in Galway says he
>>would not have been surprised if a certain individual who
>>resides in California had been at the game.
> 
>>Anyone know what he's referring to? I'm totally lost.
> Reagan?
> 
Two people have now suggested Reagan. He's the only well-known person
known to reside in California? Hell, think I'll ask the Ferrie-man
himself!

Jeff Finlay
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: rlwilliams@gallua.gallaudet.edu
Subject: The Man who made Ireland
Organization: Gallaudet University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:26:21 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.205514.1@gallua.gallaudet.edu>, rlwilliams@gallua.gallaudet.edu writes:
> Hi,
> 	I just saw a copy of a book called "The Man Who Made Ireland," a 
> biography of Michael Collins. I wonder how this book was received in 
> Ireland. Is it popular? Well thought of? Is it considered accurate?
> 
> Sorry if this has been discussed to death. I know the book has been out for 
> some time now.
> 
> skip
> rlwilliams@gallua.bitnet
=========
I'm not sure how I managed to post this with a number as a title so I'm 
reposting it with a decent title.

skip
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Irish Books/U.S. Bookshops
Date: 23 Jan 1993 03:03:00 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

C R Pennell writes:
>Maybe you missed Chris' original post. Ireland's role in the history of
>imperialism was to be on the receiving end. QUite a lot of British
>policies which were later applied elsewhere in the Empire were first 
>applied there (colonial policing is a classic example)

[His posting arrived here much later than your followup.]

I don't think I believe it, however.  It's an interesting hypothesis,
but when you look at historical timelines, who was doing what when,
the colonial treatment or whatever of Ireland is practically
simultaneous with the period of English colonization -- everywhere
else in the world.  English colonization of Ireland begins with
the Tudors & doesn't really work until the end of Elizabeth's
regime.  That's the same time the colonization of North America
starts.

Isn't it at least as likely that the English practiced their
colonialist skills out of site in Virginia & Barbados & then brot them
back to the colony next door?  Or to their other "colonies" elsewhere
in Britain itself?

> [Medieval Norwegian history is the boringest]
>Hush, you never know who's listening. We might get a thread about
>Norwegian history.

Wake me when it's over.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.EDU (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: Irish Books/U.S. Bookshops
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 23:55:17 EST

In article <1993Jan21.001000.24460@massey.ac.nz> news@massey.ac.nz (USENET News System) writes:
>
>  Nope I admit it, I have no idea why, it just doesent make logical sense
>to try to reach east by going west (try it for yourself and see). AND,
>mister historian, what makes you so sure that he had no idea he would
>stumble on a new continent by going west??      
>
Because he underestimated the circumference of the globe approximately
by 1/3. His estimates were well short of what contemporaries (who were very     
close to the true figure) knew, and since he NEVER, before the day he died,
accepted the idea that he found something other than the Indies, it seems
clear that he had no expectation any other landmasses were in the way. 
Strange, because he was a master sailor and navigator.

>
>Yes, I suppose you are right.  You seem well enough qualified to say it.
>
Oo, temper! But if you cannot see historical criticism for what it is, 
you deserve every spoonful of flame.

Chris
From: scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Kilts
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 16:17:11 +1300
Organization: Barbed Wire Cat Productions

Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> writes:

> >  Note that tartan is only prohibited from being used in great coats or
> >  upper coats -- no use of tartan on other piecing of clothing, or other
> >  uses such as tableclothes, bed clothes, etc, are mentioned.  So tartan
> >  didn't really go out of use or production.

> Assuming, of course, that tartan was actually used for tableclothes, bed
> clothes, etc. (I don't know whether it was or not, but it seems reasonable
> that if the tartan was an important enough political symbol to be banned, it
> would be too important to be used as a table cloth. This may be a peculiarly
> modern sensibility, but, without anything to indicate otherwise, it seems
> like a fairly obvious conclusion).

I don't think it is an obvious conclusion.  I would think 
the ban against tartan as a clothing material would lead to 
it being used for other purpose, as an act of legal defiance 
against oppression.



Robert Singers               | Nothing I say or do should be taken as
scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz | a reflection of any form of reality or
                             | consensual hallucination.
** It's not my spelling (much) that's faulty.  It's this keyboard! **
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8956 soc.culture.british:19556
From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:46:51 GMT
Organization: Not Philips.

In refd article, dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons) writes:
>The crucial point is that the US is dealing with this as a native rights
>issue. I think the native rights issue in NI has become hidden
>over the years. The problem is now usually defined as a civil rights
>issue. I suspect that trying to solve it as purely a civil rights
>issue is not likely to succeed.

What this seems to mean is that natives should have "native rights" and not
"civil rights", and whatever these rights are, they are not equal.

Treating the NI issue as "civil rights" acknowledges that all citizens
should have equal rights.

-- 
Ray Dunn at home        |  Beaconsfield, Quebec  |  Phone: (514) 630 3749
ray@philmtl.philips.ca  |  ray@cam.org           |  uunet!sobeco!philmtl!ray
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8831 soc.culture.british:19126
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Date: 21 Jan 1993 18:36:12 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

David Garrod writes:
#>When the U.S. gives over total control of the U.S.A. to native
#>americans, Great Britain should look at giving control of 
#>Northern Ireland to Eire.

#>Otherwise citing the U.S. handling of native american rights as
#>a shining example of handling "colonialism" is utter bull.

This is an example of a false dichotomy, offered w/o slitest
justification.
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Going to Ireland
Date: 22 Jan 93 13:57:34 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

spain@galvia.enet.dec.com () writes:


>Donegal is really beautiful.  The coastline in West Donegal is really
>spectacular.  go west from Killybegs.  Sliabh League (spelling?) etc
>are well worth a visit.  You could easily spend 2 weeks in Donegal.  
>Malin Head and the whole peninsula is also well worth seeing.


I'd throw in, the coastline up Lough Swilly up to and beyond Port Salon as
well...amazing scenery.

Dave
-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Oh, Goodie, a Whole New Lie (was re: This Favorite Lie Again.)
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:38:42 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <1jn1inINNrt0@morrow.stanford.edu> silva@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Holly Silva) writes:
>mbrennan@spca.bbn.com (Maeve Brennan) writes:
>>
>>I don't believe the US provides an exemplary model in its treatment
>>of indigenous peoples.  
>>
>	You could perhaps argue that the Native Americans have simply,
>through their own tenacity and strength retained their cultures more
>readily than the Irish or Highlands Scots, but a more realistic argument
>can be made to the effect that a rather successful cultural genocide
>occurred in Britain through the past 2 and 1/2 centuries.

Or yet again, that not being racially different, the Gaels were able to
assimilate more easily into the dominant cultures in the UK and the US.
This was probably not an option for many Native Americans.

>	Your kinfolk and mine, were cruelly from their native lands
>in northern Europe. They proceeded then to turn around and do unto 
>others as had been done unto them, in spades. Such is life.

It ws also "our kinfolk" in race if not in class, who threw our
ancestors out of their homes in the first place. The Highland landlords
were just as Scottish in descent as their tenants were. It was the
andvance of capitalism that turned their relationship into that of
Lanlord and Tenant rather than Chief and Clanspeople. It wasn't a sudden
influx of alien English owners who cleared the people from the land.

Robert Kee's "The Green Flag" suggests this was also true of Ireland. 



M

-- 
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
From: holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Casement update
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:04:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: e2big.1993Jan26.170426.12806
Reply-To: holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <93026.091302RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com>, RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com (Aengus Lawlor) writes:
|>>...
|>>> [MH]   It was surrounded by frightened
|>>> [MH]   unarmed mourners.
|>>>
|>>> How about,
|>>> "It was descended upon by mob of republican thugs, who acted true to form"
|>>
|>>Mr. Mulligan is not an extremist, but Holohan's general position
|>>drives him to make stupid comments like this. 

   Mr. Mullethead is not only an extremist, but a British apologist.
   Halpin, you should be a lawyer. I make a statement about frightened
   unarmed mourners, Mullethead calls these people republican thugs,
   but I'm to blame for driving him to this awful statement.

   Watch, I'll do it again, unarmed mourners, unarmed mourners.  God
   only knows what kind of terrible things I'll force mullethead to
   say now.  I feel just terrible.  Now if mullethead goes and kicks
   the wife, or kills the dog, I'll be responsible. Aren't I something.

|>>Holohan slants the
|>>story as if it were an attack by undercover soldiers on the
|>>funeral, and the uninformed response is to say black to his white.
|>>This is a truly grey situation: a really horrible attack, all the

   O.K. so I won't offend any delicate British sensibilities, I won't
   use the word undercover.  How about, two armed British soldiers,
   who happened to be in plain clothes, who happened to be out for
   a Sunday drive in a nationalist community.  That's a little bit
   longer than just saying undercover, but if it makes you happy, 
   that's the way I'll phrase it from now on.

Then Aengus writes:
|>case.  The big problems with posts like Mark Holohans is that it pushes
|>people to refusal.

   The truth sometimes has a way of pushing people to that.  But 
   I'm afraid you won't find me suger-coating it for those people.

|> And to think that somebody once accused him of being a
|>propagandist!

   I too was shocked!

|>Like the British Army in Northern Ireland, Marks actions tend
|>to have the effect of convincing "the enemy" that they were right all along.

   Mullethead isn't the enemy, ignorance is the enemy.  While you and
   your mates dance around in the grey areas, more innocent people are
   being sentenced by British kangeroo courts for crimes they did not
   commit.

                          Mark

--
*******************************************************************************

  Mark Holohan, DEC, USA        "Character is what you are in the dark" - BB
  holohan@mark.enet.dec.com
  
  The opinions expressed are not necessarily the opinions of 
  Digital Equipment Corporation.

*******************************************************************************
From: Howard Frederick <hfrederick@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Date: 24 Jan 93 15:37 PST
Subject: Europe in Turmoil*Media*Call4Papers
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1472400001:000:2526
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!hfrederick    Jan 24 15:37:00 1993


From: Howard Frederick <hfrederick>
Subject: Europe in Turmoil*Media*Call4Papers

                [ Please respond to hfrederick@igc.apc.org ]
                     Call for Papers*Deadline Extended

                    International Communication Section
         INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR MASS COMMUNICATION RESEARCH

                            "Europe in Turmoil:  
               Communication and Democracy in Civil Society"
        Hosted by School of Communications, Dublin City University
                        June 25-26 Dublin, Ireland

     Three forces compete for the hearts and minds of Europe's attentive 
publics--government, market, and civil society.  In Europe, as elsewhere, 
governments and markets control the major channels of public opinion 
formation, so they usually prevail.  But new channels (both interpersonal 
and technological) have transformed our capacity to build and maintain 
long-distance coalitions and networks.  New regional and global forces are 
now using new channels of communication to fight problems whose scale 
previously confounded local and national solution.  We call this the 
"transnationalization of civil participation."  

     The International Communication Section seeks papers for two panels 
describing the scope and impact of channels promoting communication and 
democracy in Europe's civil societies.  From the environment to women, from 
neighborhood conflict resolution to computer networks, from radio to 
publishing, from universities to the labor movement:  Civil society is 
producing new media to distribute its culture and information.  Market- and 
government-controlled media have not been able to provide reliable and 
diversified information essential to democracy.  We will accept articles 
from outside Europe if they focus on channels of civil and democratic 
communication relevant "Europe in Turmoil."  

     Paper abstracts accepted until February 15.  Important:  Final papers 
must be submitted via *email or on diskette* by April 15, 1992, no 
exceptions.  For submissions, contact:  Howard H. Frederick, President, 
International Communication Section of IAMCR, P.O.B. 94653, Pasadena, CA 
91109 USA Voice:  +1-818-568-0994  Email:  hfrederick@igc.apc.org   
Fax: +1-818-791-2205 "Attention CLAIRE"   

     For more information on the Dublin conference, contact Paschal 
Preston, School of Communications, Dublin City University, Glasnevin DUBLIN 
9, IRELAND  Tel:  +353 1 7045478  Fax:  +353 1 704 5447  
E-Mail:  PrestonP@dcu.ie

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.EDU (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 12:56:37 EST

In article <1993Jan22.191831.17248@philabs.philips.com> dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons) writes:
>Since I prefer to believe the best of you, I'll repeat my argument.
>NI has long been classified as a civil rights problem; more
>accurately it is a native rights problem. The solution to stable
>government of NI is to address this problem openly. My only comment
>on the US, was that it *is* addressing its native rights problems
>directly. Whether you or I think its doing a good job is quite a
>different matter.
>
>NI is a native rights problem because 70 years ago NI was set up as
>a state in which Unionists would have a built-in majority. The only
>role of the nationalist population was, apparently, to pad out the
>state, since they were disenfranchised by the purpose built majority.
>This is how the problem started.
>
I cannot really see the point of acting on a "native rights" policy
in NI, because this would only further divide Ireland into not only
religious and political but now ethnic groups. Why should we erect more
further demarcations between "us" and "them"? Has this ever really
solved a problem or simply redefined it? I tend to believe the latter.

Furthermore, who are the natives and how would you define them? Prove
to me that anyone is REALLY Irish Celtic. Apart from those who can 
verifyably trace their ancestry to England, can anyone elses'
ancestry be proven? The Scots'? The Old English (who are Catholic)? 
In your scenario, only the Catholics would be "natives". And so we are
back to square one.

I think in the end it would also separate Ireland into "natives" and
"non-natives", which has the same perjorative content as "star-belly
sneeches". 

My tuppence.

Chris


Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic