From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and the so-called "Christian biblical stance."
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:37:23 GMT
Organization: Rice University

[There were a number of responses to this question.  I have chosen
5 that are representative of the range.  --clh]

onstott@a.cs.okstate.edu (ONSTOTT CHARLES OR) writes:

> Question:  Should a church be expelled form a convention if it
>contains homosexuals in its congregation?
> Answer: No.  Although homosexuality can be shown to be an evil from a 
>biblical stance, any supported evil of homosexuality should not
>take precedence over the forgivingness of Christ.  To banish a church 
>due to a homosexual in the congregation is in direct contridiction of
>the openess of love and forgivingness revealed by Jesus Chirst.  To
>due so means only to prefer the evil of men than the forgivingness of
>Christ.
> Reply to answer:  Paul teaches that to associate with people who
>do evil is deterimental spiritually to that person.  Since a congration
>containing a homosexual forces such association, the church should not
>permit a homosexual to attend.
> Objection to reply: Christ teaches that love and forgivingness takes 
>precedence over anything else--association not withstanding.
> Conclusion:  It is unjustifiable on biblical, and spiritual, grounds 
>to expell a church for reaching-out to a homosexual within the congregation.

[More similar q&a deleted]

>Answer:  Christianity is in a decline because of its closed-minded 
>dogmatic approaches to a changing society.  Unless it can open its
>mind and find new ways of interpreting the same text, it is doomed
>to failure.  This is the most spiritually damaging situation conceivable.

Refutation:  This is a position which is proven incorrect by the application
of common logic.  Christ is terribly misrepresented in this Q&A session.
The common conclusion reached by Mr. Onstott (or is it Mr. Or?) is that
the forgiveness of Christ supercedes all such contrary opinions voiced by
Paul and the rest of the apostles.  The holes in this are as follows:

1) Jesus himself offered forgiveness of sin but did not encourage its 
continuation.  He told the adulterous woman "Go, and sin no more."  He
said "If you love me, you will obey my commandments." (John 14:15)
He commands that he be OBEYED, and not just used as a dispenser-o-forgiveness.
Did he not chase the moneychangers out of the temple?  He repeats the
commandments to the rich ruler in Luke 18.  He did not say "Come, be
forgiven just as you are."  Luke 13's general theme is "Repent or perish"
(verse 5).  He brought his forgiveness to those who needed it the most, that
is, the most sinful, but he required their repentance.

2) To simply ignore all the commands of Paul you enumerated, issued from
a man who understood and wrote about Christ's message of forgiveness
perhaps more than anyone today, cannot be done except by flatly
denying the authority of Scripture.  It says point-blank, "Cast out
the evildoer from your midst."  To say "Well but Jesus forgives so we'll
ignore that one" means that Scripture must not be inspired/inerrant in
faith & morals.  If that is true then what do you have to make you believe
Jesus' words were recorded correctly and not just made up by some guy.  And,
as has already been demonstrated, Jesus contradicts Paul in no way on this.

3) "Reinterpretation of text" is a dangerous thing to say.  Our faith rests
not on the Bible but on God.  If Christ or Paul taught that God says X is
wrong, and we believe that they were inspired, then we cannot just
"reinterpret text" to show that it's not wrong.  God's commandments
do not change, and it is preposterous to say that something is evil one
minute and OK the next depending on how we see it.  You yourself admit
that the Scriptures teach that these things are wrong.  When you come 
down to it, you are saying that we should just change our minds, ignore
the Bible and church teaching, and do something that Christ did not even 
do, that is, say because of God's "love and forgiveness" sin is no
longer sin.  Any sin could be justified in the same way.  

Chanting "love and forgiveness" after any logical Biblically supported 
stand does not make it go away.  I suggest you read the Gospels sometime
and see Jesus' view of love and forgiveness.  It is one that says
"Come and FOLLOW ME.  Go, and SIN NO MORE."  It is not the "cheap grace"
that would say "Everyone is forgiven, I'm OK, You're OK, no effort 
required."  If you care to listen to Paul as well read Romans and see why
we should no longer sin as Christ's chosen people.

Ernest Mueller