From: Michael Ryan <ryan@astrosun.tn.cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Surviving (was Re: Getting Something off My Chest)
Nntp-Posting-User: mtr1@cornell.edu
Organization: Astro. Dept., Cornell Univ.
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d1
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 00:28:51 GMT

My sincere apologies to all for the wasted bandwidth.  I'm using a new
news reader/poster that didn't function as expected.

In article <1992Jul28.013253.3328@macc.wisc.edu> Jess Anderson,
anderson@macc.wisc.edu writes:
>>
>>In article <15569@star.cs.vu.nl> FJ!!, fjvwing@cs.vu.nl writes:
>>
  .. glib response deleted.
>>
>>The reason for continuing to live when living hurts so bad you want to
>>end the pain, should be that there might be a way out to make life
>>liveable again, not that _others_ want you to continue.
>>
>>				FJ!!

 . . . In response to FJ
>
>You seem to think a person's pain is the only thing in the
>world that counts for anything, that anyone who is suffering
>*deserves* to have the entire world revolve around their
>misery.  This is by no means the case.  In fact, that sort of
>self-indulgence should in most cases be pulled up short by
>reality right away.
>
>You talk as though others have no stake, as though part of
>what makes life livable [note the spelling] couldn't possibly
>have anything to do with others in one's life.  That's
>nonsense.  I know there are indeed many different kinds of
>situations that lead a person to consider suicide, but as a
>person who spent the greater part of 25 years being in that
>situation, I think I can adequately testify to at least one
>point of view.
>
>So one thing you're doing is attempting to invalidate my
>witness for your own reasons.  Fine with me, no one can stop
>you.  But I don't have to like it, which I assuredly don't.
>
>Making it clear to a suicidal person that you personally
>face a real loss if they go through with it and trying to
>secure their agreement that they will *not* carry it out are
>major factors in helping a person pull themselves back from
>the brink.  You're not going to get much chance to help
>someone (and if you're in a position to help and you don't
>help, you're as much as saying "Go ahead.") unless you can
>get the person back from that brink.
>
>Go back to what I said: "Please don't.  Get help instead." I
>didn't prescribe what form of help it should be or from whom
>it should come.  So your reaction seems most unwarranted to
>me.  
>

I feel that I with my own set of experiences must comment on this, 
because my perspective is quite different from Jess'.  I too have stood 
on the brink, actually made a serious attempt once (although I called for 
help after I was far down the line, which did end up being the primary
reason I didn't succeed) and got committed for a short time for it.

A tiny bit of background first.  At the time I was feeling the raw pain
from
actually having fallen in love for the first time with a caring man who
response to my statements of love was something like "I couldn't ever 
return your love."  He was not as much the problem as the mistaken belief 
that I would never be happy (no, I had never known anyone who was gay) 
because I was gay.  All this is in addition to some biological tendancies 
towards depression.  (Please note, all this is very shortened and is 
obviously more complex).

What finally pulled me back from ever getting this close to
self-inflicted 
death again was not any promises that I made towards others that cared
for me that I wouldn't.  In fact, I had made several such promises before
I made my attempt and made other ones afterwards that I didn't believe.
I lied to people constantly about the true state of my feelings, because
I had no interest in how they felt about me.  I only cared about me.  
If this seems selfish, than you are reading this statement accurately
--it is because at the time (no, not now) that is all I truly cared about.
I also don't think that my experiences are solitary ones.

An aspect of the mental hospital (actually just a ward in a regular
 one) that I appreciated greatly was that the patient came absolutely
first.  No other relative's, friend's, etc. feeling were ever to be
considered
to be more important or even as important as the patient's.  This means
that, for example, I was not in any way obliged to contact my mother or
any other relatives to let them know what I had done (nor could the
staff).
If I didn't want to talk to them, see them or respond to them in
any way that I felt impaired my recovery or temporary sanity than
I was allowed to do so.  The patient's recovery (which starts at the very
beginning with the creation of a non-threatening, comforting environment)
is the only priority.

As the attending nurse that I talked with said, "Their problems are
theirs,
not yours."

I finally worked my way out of the hospital and later away from the 
brink because I began to believe that I could achieve personal (not
necessarily perfect) happiness.

Yes, now I am considerably happier, am involved in a new relationship,
am good friends with a former lover and take seriously my responsiblity
towards other people and not just being a selfish bastard (as the above
may sound).  This is not anywhere near where I was a few years ago.

I disagree with Jess' perspective because my perspective says that 
engaging those types of feelings for others requires a certain degree of
sanity that is not always present in the suicidal.  Were you to
have done them for me at that time, I would have gracefully received
your statements and then lied with impunity.

I will always take with me one of the conversations with my attending 
nurse who said that the only person who I am ultimately accountable
to for my own happiness is myself.  That I did have the power and
personal strength to do that.  That is to say, I must always look to
myself for my happiness and not rely on others to be there to provide
it for me.  Not unlike the earlier discussions of relationships where
somebody stated that they couldn't be a successfuly partner in a 
relationship until they were strong enough not to need that relationship
to be happy.
 
She also introduced to me to one of the
nurses who was gay, who provided a nice abstract role model even 
though I didn't get to know him that well.

All this is not to say that what Jess says isn't valid, its just
totally divergent from my own experiences.  In certain situations
either one of our experiences may be applicable.

I would rewrite Jess' plea not to commit suicide to this:  Please!  Don't
do it.
If you are standing on the brink, please always remember that you are not
the only one who has travelled this path.  Each person does have the
strength
inside themself to find a measure of happiness in life.  Either by the
assistance of others or by reaching inside yourself, please make the
effort
to find this strength.  Those of us who have stood there as you have, are
a
testimant that it can be done.  If you are there because you are 
gay, lesbian or bisexual then, as this forum's writers and readership so
amply
demonstrates, remember that you can find great joy in living your life as
you
are and that you are not the only one who feels as you do.  

Over the last few years I have learned this to be very true and despite
some
continuing depression, am optimistic about living my life, in forming good
relationships and in finding personal happiness.

Mike

---
Mike Ryan
ryan@astrosun.tn.cornell.edu,  Astro. Dept., Cornell Univ., Ithaca, NY