HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Censorship
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 08:04:37 GMT

	I suspect that the question of whether the U. S. Government has made
a practice of banning books is somehow the wrong one--i.e., that the situation
was more complex than that.  But in the U. S., books *were* banned:  people 
have mentioned Henry Miller's _Tropics_, to which add _Sexus_, _Nexus_, and
_Plexus_.  Likewise _Lolita_, _The Ginger Man_, and, as mentioned, _Naked 
Lunch_, all of which were available as "Traveler's Companions" from Olympia
Press (and I once owned several of the plain green paperbacks, including a
cherished _Naked Lunch_, all, alas, now gone).

	And magazines were routinely banned at the whim of this locality or
that.  I remember that in Chicago for some time in the early-to-mid '60s, one
could not buy _Playboy_.  It seems that the serialized version of Lenny
Bruce's autobiography, which in parts took the hog-calling (or is it 
slaughtering?) city to task for its prosecution of him for obscenity.

	Does anyone know of a good history of literary censorship in the
U. S.?  It seems to me important to remember how recently these
things have changed.


-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kate@cactus.org (Katherine M. Catmull)
Subject: Re: Where is well met in Huston, TX?
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:50:49 GMT


I don't see many Houstonians coming out of the woodwork for a houstonfest,
so I would like to urge FM to come up to Austin instead. I'm sure there
are at least two or three of us who could show you a bitof the
town.

Incidentally, I would also urge FM to ignore SubG's malevolent
suggestion about seeking nightspots in the Fifth Ward. You want
Montrose or West University.

I hear there's a good Magritte exhibition in Houston right now--

Kate



-- 
- - - - - - - -
kate@cactus.org
Be the voice of night and Florida in my ear.
From: jahb@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JENNIFER A. HEISE)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Books we're too righteous to censor-- but would like to
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:27:23 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

OK, guys: time for a new flame war.
Let's talk about what books that we would *like* to censor, but we are too
damn PC or right-to-read or whatever to suggest.
    My first candidate:
    Jude the Obscure.  Not for everyone-- just not to be taught in the
    schools. It's sexist, fatalist, and just plain depressing. Asking
    teenagers to read it is incitement to suicide.
    Any objections? Anyone in favor? Anyone care for a mint?


    
-- 
Jennifer Heise                           Net: jahb@lehigh.edu
Reference Dept.,                         Phone: (215) 758-3072
Fairchild-Martindale Libraries #8A,  Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA 18015
My opinions are my own. No one else would HAVE them anyway.

"The toad beneath the harrow knows Exactly where each tooth-point goes;
The butterfly upon the road Preaches contentment to that toad."  Kipling
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 10:59:35 CST
From: Cole Kendall <U48073@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Buried Treasure -or- So, whaddaya use for bookmarks?
 <C1DzFs.5H2@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <25JAN93.02394698@vax.clarku.edu>
 <C1E9Bt.IBs@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <C1F2uD.4qL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>

Postcards (both purchased and not sent as well as received)
Magazine inserts
Airline ticket leftovers (including itinerary, jackets, stubs and so forth)
The bookmarks I get at local bookstores (mostly from used bookstores)
Envelopes which once contained bills
Check stubs (A reminder of paychecks cashed)
(at the office) Memos to the faculty on various matters
Extra copies of past tests/syllabi
Wedding invitations (not my own)
5 1/4" Floppy disks (or the covers)
Lists of things to buy: CDs, books

Cole Kendall

PS I never bend the corners of pages, but I do admit to leaving books
open face down and doing some damage to the spines.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary g link)
Subject: Re: "Harlan Ellison's Watching" by Harlan Ellison
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:53:39 GMT

The essay 'Revealed at last! What killed the dinosaurs! And you don't
look so terrific yourself.' is indeed in the anthology _Strange Wine_.
I also recommend from  the same volume 'The New York Review of Bird.'

Ellison had great hopes for television, and I believe that his hopes
took some time to die, but die they did.  For an utterly fascinating
look at the underside of series television I recommend the book 'The
Starcrossed' by Ben Bova I think, or by Ellison himself, I can't
remember, and the copy I had has been lent out once too often.  An
interesting account of the thrills of making a TV series.

And read _The Glass Teat_ to find out his opinion of Spiro Agnew.  One I
agree with heartily.

Susanna

Ellison's comment on TV:

"All this programs the death of reading.
 And reading is the drinkig of strange wine."

Enjoy the strange wine.
From: spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Ordering books via Internet?
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Date: 25 Jan 1993 17:13 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    


Matthew P Wiener writes...
>Quantum books (their Cambridge store) is on the internet.

+----------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
So:
a)  what's their address and
b)  do they have an electronic catalogue?









A SubG and his
money are soon
parted,
Yours etc.,




SubGenius


Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26181 rec.arts.sf.misc:3787
From: 00tlstanchfi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Reading Suggestions
Date: 24 Jan 93 22:41:46 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

Thank you all for your many suggestions for reading material. 
Now to hit  the Interlibrary Service with umpteen requests....

Tracey "nose stuck in a book until 2001" Stanchfield
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: lorenzo@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Eric Lorenzo)
Subject: Re: Buried Treasure -or- So, whaddaya use for bookmarks?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 03:19:19 GMT

I don't use anything quite as exotic, but have managed to hold onto the
stub that they rip off your ticket when you board a plane.  Somehow this
stub has lasted years and several books.



-- 
       --    O          The thrill is                   Eric J. Lorenzo
     ---   </\_      not just in winning,       lorenzo@Rintintin.Colorado.EDU
   ----  -\/\         but in the courage                  also @UCSU
      ---   /_         to join the race    -?               & @Spot
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: emery@goldfinger.mitre.org (David Emery)
Subject: Hardback copy of "Silver Pigs" wanted
Organization: The Mitre Corp., Bedford, MA.
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:35:35 GMT

I have this in paper, but I'd like it in Hardback.  If anyone has one
to sell, let me know.		dave
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: sheilah@wam.umd.edu (Danny-Boy)
Subject: Re: More sf babble 
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:34:15 GMT

Has anyone suggested good sf books?

I recall SubG requesting some rcommendations for sf books (was it
a literary sf canon?), but after this, the discussion seems to have
dwindled into other things.

I would like to see some suggestions for science fiction with original
ideas presented in a talented fashion. 

Here is a book I havn't read; it was recommended at a bookstore,
White Snow. can't remember the author, it may be perfectly awful,
or it might actually be good. I am not setting it forth as a candidate for
literary scifi.

I havn't read any good new sf lately, I read Ian McDonald's newest novel
and it did not meet my expectations.

I would also like a list of original ideas.
-- 
I am always wrong. Don't believe me ever.
stark raving sane  sheilah@wam.umd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kers0205@elan.rowan.edu (CHUCK KERSHENBLATT)
Subject: new Patti Smith book
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:29:35 GMT


I read in Rolling Stone that Patti Smith has just published a collection of 
short stories. Does anyone have any copies of her poetry they'd like to 
sell? I have "Witt" but seem to have lost my copy of "Babel" ... 
Unfortunately everything of Patti's is currently out of print. Perhaps her 
new publisher will reprint her stuff. It's amazing how many persons in the 
States have never heard of Patti Smith-- yet when travelling last summer I 
met young college students from Germany, France, Italy, who were quite 
familiar with her. Since I'm from Glassboro, New Jersey, I have quite a lot 
of connections with Patti Smith ... She went to school here in the Sixties, 
but dropped out her senior year (Pregnancy ... Gave up the child for 
adoption). I'm friends with Paul Flick, a very kind and brilliant man who 
took care of Patti when she was in trouble, and helped her with her Art 
studies. Paul's since retired, but keeps in touch with Patti. Patti's mother 
also still lives near me, just down the road from the college in fact ... 
Yet almost no one here has even heard of her! I would be very interested in 
hearing from anyone who likes Patti's poetry.
From: nikolay@scws8.harvard.edu (Philip Nikolayev)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Poet Laureate
Date: 28 Jan 93 07:33:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: scws8.NIKOLAY.93Jan27233349
Organization: The Kremlin Wall of Harvard
In-reply-to: wwhitman@nevada.edu's message of Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:41:40 GMT

wwhitman@nevada.edu (MICHAEL WISE) writes:

> Joseph Brodsky is the current Poet Laureate. The times they are a
> changin'.  No longer is the Poet Laureate expected to write
> occasional verse for coronations and such (an inauguration poem
> would have been Brodsky's job in Tennyson's England). The post is
> also considered honorable--those who remember Byron's opening shot
> at Bob Southey in Don Juan will realise that taking the job was the
> nineteenth century equivalent of selling out to the establishment.

Brodsky isn't since last summer, but I'm not sure who the new one is.
It might be Angelou, actually, for all I know. Of course, Brodsky
couldn't be made to write an inauguration poem, being obsessed as he
is with the emphatically private nature of his writing.

> ___________________________________________________________________________
> Michael Wise 	(wwhitman@nevada.edu)	UNLV English

Philip at nikolay@husc.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.fan.holmes,rec.answers,news.answers
From: ashall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew S Hall)
Subject: Zivek, Criticism, and a creeping virus named Argic
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:24:23 GMT

I was amazed that someone (McDonald) mentioned Zivek in a piece
about criticism and its relevancy. He also refrained from posting
some quotes since, in short context, Lacanian jargon would sound
quite silly. This dovetails nicely with the current discussion of
the necessity of knowing mathematics.

It is very easy to pull out sections of technical criticism and
mock it for its obtusity. I could also do the same with a math or
physics article. If you don't have the background, imagine what a
quote about the "flavor" or "charm" of a particle would sound like.
Or imagine delving into an abstract algebra text and reading about
rings, non-Abelian groups, and discovering that 4+4 could equal
3,4, or 5 depending on what group you are in.

If you don't have experience in the jargon of criticism it sounds
really idiotic, just like the example of math above. This is
especially true of something like Lacanian criticism which relies
on a whole jargon-laden language of its own.

I am not defending idiocies. They exist in any field, but seem to get
published too often in criticism. When I read Heather's quote about
a critic who talked about permutations, symmetry, etc, the mathematician
in me cringed in horror. This isn't critical language, it is blatant
math/science stealing to feign credibility. However, something like
Zivek and Lacanian criticism needs to be met on its own terms and not
dismissed because its language sounds silly to the inexperienced.

There are classes of criticism that are readily accessible to the lay-
reader. Camille Paglia's _Sexual Personae_ is a prime example. Judging
criticism on its accessibility is stupid, though.  Conversely, just
because a critical piece is hopelesly obstuse doesn't make it more
valid.

One final note:   Article 50116 was posted by one Serdar Argic. In
discussing Robert Conquest's _The Great Terror_ someone has made
the mistake of cross-posting and mentioning Serdar. This Serdar Argic
is really a computer program that spews out Turkish propoganda and
hate. This infection is well known on soc.history, soc.culture.greek,
soc.culture.turkey, and others. Research has shown that Serdar
alone comprises about 1% of total Net traffic. Please don't let
this "virus" get on r.a.b.

Andrew Hall
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 20 Jan 93 21:40:07 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1993Jan15.061406.25354@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> In article <13922@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> >In article <1993Jan12.043836.6227@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
# ## Speaking of begged questions, how did unions come about?  That's right,
# ## through government intervention.  Until the government recognized the
# ## right to organize, workers did so at the risk of losing their jobs or
# ## worse.  See under "Pinkerton."  Or "Anaconda."  Or even "UAW."
# 
# #False.  Read about the 1877 railroad strikes.  There was NO government
# #recognition, and in fact, large scale government intervention against
# #the unions.  Of course, liberals like to forget that part of what made
# #labor unions so weak was the call out of the National Guard on the
# #side of the employers.
# 
# My point exactly!  Read what I wrote: government -- in the service
# of the employers, because it was not independent enough to resist --
# put down unions until later.  Unions did not become established at
# that time -- where they existed, they were pretty iffy.  There was
# no recognized right to strike; it took court decisions and laws to
# establish that.
# 
# Roger

That's not what you said.  Look at your statement above.  You asserted
that unions did not "come about" until the government recognized
them.  Yet even before recognition, with vigorous Big Government
intervention AGAINST them, they existed, and were effective.


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: stame@emunix.emich.edu (Stewart Tame)
Subject: Re: "Harlan Ellison's Watching" by Harlan Ellison
Organization: Eastern Michigan University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:25:21 GMT

In article <C18LHF.2yJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary g link) writes:
>The essay 'Revealed at last! What killed the dinosaurs! And you don't
>look so terrific yourself.' is indeed in the anthology _Strange Wine_.
>I also recommend from  the same volume 'The New York Review of Bird.'
>
>Ellison had great hopes for television, and I believe that his hopes
>took some time to die, but die they did.  For an utterly fascinating
>look at the underside of series television I recommend the book 'The
>Starcrossed' by Ben Bova I think, or by Ellison himself, I can't
>remember, and the copy I had has been lent out once too often.  An
>interesting account of the thrills of making a TV series.

Pretty sure it's by Bova, though Ellison *did* write the pilot for the TV
series in question ("The Starlost.")  There's an amusing essay about
the whole business by Ellison himself in _Stalking the Nightmare_, though
the title eludes me for the moment.  I remember it being a _Wizard of Oz_
reference . . . 

		-- Stewart "running out of cute quotes" Tame

****************************************************************************
 I understand it's obligatory to mention Kibo somewhere in one's postings.
****************************************************************************
		Email:  stame@emunix.emich.edu
****************************************************************************
Disclaimer:  Not only do my opinions represent those of Eastern Michigan
University, but also those of Dan Quayle, Richard Nixon, Frank Zappa,
Pee-wee Herman, Bart Simpson, Tipper Gore, Murphy Brown, Maggie Thatcher,
and the Easter Bunny.
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Censorship
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:20:21 GMT
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org

In article <1k4ap4$q1f@agate.berkeley.edu> spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
>Legal Eagle Mike Godwin writes:
>
>> Freedom of the press and freedom of speech have both improved
>> significantly in this country in the last three decades.
>
>I'm wondering, Mike, how you figure this is the
>case.

I follow the cases.

>  I've witnessed the opposite.  There is the
>Reagan/Bush led crackdown on pornography: including
>seizing bookstores under RICO and seizure laws;
>mail-order porno sting operations; ....

Nevertheless, it's easier to get porn and to sell it now than it was in,
say, 1963. The three decades have made a difference, although to someone
in his 20s it may not seem so.

> censorship
>of rock and rap music.

There has been very little censorship of either. I can count the number of
cases in the last decade on my fingers, and normally the artist or
distributor wins the case.

I note that many instances of censorship from the '50s and '60s (take
Elvis's hips on the Ed Sullivan show, or the Stones' rewrite of "Let's
Spend the Night Together" on the same show, for two examples) are
unthinkable today. Is it more likely, you think, that Sinead O'Connor
could have ripped up the pope's picture if this were 1963?

>In the political realm,
>immigration laws have been used to keep artists
>out of the country who come from such subversive countries
>as the Republic of Ireland.  Harassment and stings of political
>organizations such as Earth First are nothing new 
>but continue unabated.  Reporters continues to get
>tossed in jail for contempt.  

If you think the censorship situation is no better now than it was in
1963, then we must agree to disagree. I am forced to think the situation
is better now because I follow the cases fairly comprehensively.

>Plus, although not governmental in nature, overeager
>lawyers mounting civil actions against publishers
>are on the rise (e.g. Uri Geller getting a restraining order 
>against the Skeptical Enquirer).

Ever heard of New York Times Co. v. Sullivan (1964)?

>In what context are things improving?

In all the contexts you mention.



--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kasprj@nuge108.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Yet another bookstore incident
Keywords: 
 
 Last night, as Maureen and I were returning to Penn Station after having 
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:58:17 GMT

dinner with Cardinal Taranto, we decided to stop at the Barnes and Noble
at 33rd and 7th to pick up some reading material for our rides home.

 I was looking for an interesting and at least somewhat entertaining piece
of fiction which would keep me occupied through a 2.5 hour train ride. So 
I checked the section marked "Fiction", but it contained only bestseller-
type stuff. I was rather astonished that a Barnes & Noble would have nothing
but the Clancy/Steele/Sheldon/etc. types of authors in their fiction section,
so I cornered the nearest clerk and asked, "Excuse me, where do you keep the
_real_ fiction?"
 
 With a wry smile, she pointed me to a set of shelves labeled "Quality 
Literature".
 
 Incidentally, the book I wound up getting was William Boyd's _An Ice-Cream
War_, set mostly in British and German East Africa during the First World 
War. A nice ironic portrait of the bizarre ways people behaved during the 
Age of Imperialism (as opposed to the bizarre ways people behave today?). 
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *|          he who refuses to do nonsense  
     \_|          is doomed to talk arithmetic.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hayward@biblio.ucs.sfu.ca (Michael Hayward)
Subject: Re: Buried Treasure -or- So, whaddaya use for bookmarks?
Reply-To: hayward@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:12:30 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.031919.24203@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>  
lorenzo@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Eric Lorenzo) writes:
>I don't use anything quite as exotic, but have managed to hold onto the
>stub that they rip off your ticket when you board a plane.  Somehow this
>stub has lasted years and several books.

My own personal favorite bookmark material is a Paris metro ticket. Used, of  
course - the unused ones I save for that inevitable next visit. ("When" is not  
always clear, but the inevitability is never in question...)

..Michael Hayward	hayward@sfu.ca
From: sph0301@utsph.sph.uth.tmc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Book-title modesty
Date: 25 Jan 1993 16:02:02 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Texas School of Public Health

In article <1993Jan22.132129.46644@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
It occurred to me the other day that I feel compelled, when carrying a
>book in public, to conceal the title, usually by carrying it with the
>front cover toward my body.  Observation bears out my hunch that many
>others do the same, at least if the book they're carrying falls into
>the category of Good Literature (which much narrows the database of my
>observation).

Just the opposite... good literature gets carried with title visible -
I'm met some interesting people that way.  It's the Danielle Steele's
and Dean Koontz's that are hidden... (Faulkner's _Absalom, Absalom_
is currently on display.)

kate
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.president.clinton