HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.elections,talk.abortion,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Re: rights and responsibilities
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 13:56:16 GMT
 <1992Sep28.163907.22679@meaddata.com> <1a7l8fINNipj@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> 
 <1992Sep30.011551.18978@meaddata.com> <1992Sep30.231133.108014@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: SPSS Inc.

margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:

>In  <1992Sep30.011551.18978@meaddata.com>  johnt@meaddata.com (John Townsend) writes:
>>
>> the Reagan/Bush "packed" Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld
>> Roe v. Wade.
>
>Barely.  And Blackmun has stated that he's not going to hang on another
>4 years.

Don't worry too much...President Clinton will be appointing the next SCJ.

(Now it's the lesser of *3* evils.  Oh joy.  I'm still voting libertarian.
It's safer.)

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
From: ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer)
Subject: Re: rights and responsibilities
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 04:36:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom San Jose
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,talk.abortion

note followup.

varney@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Bruce Varney) writes ...
>>>: 	Making murder illegal is also a form of self-protection.  Banning
>>>: abortion is simply legalizing a set of morals.
>>>
>>>This statement is not correct.
>>	Why not.  You've stated your opinon, now back it up.
>
>	If you hadn't striped the rest of my post, it would be there now!
>Laws are made to protect people - in some cases people that are incapable
>of protecting themselves. Laws about child labor etc are such. Why is

This is clearly NOT "self-protection", as you claimed.

>it that no one is crying that those are "legalizing a set of morals"?
>Simple. It's not. It is protecting a segment of human society that cannot
>protect itself. The same is true of abortion laws. 
>	Note that the main thrust of my opinion is that unborn children
>deserve civil rights just like anyone else. I try to avoid making moralistic
>statements in this debate in order to avoid exactly the "your morals
>are not someone elses morals" claim. Why was it ok for us to impose our
>morals on the south with the emancipation proclaimation, and the civil
>war? Because a segment of the human population was being denied any
>rights whatsoever. Wherever this occurs, we should be disgusted, and
>work to change it. Abortion is one such case.

No it isn't.  In case you hadn't noticed, there are some fundamental 
differences between a 8-week fetus, a black slave, and an adult woman.
There are aslo fundamental and major differences in the relationship
a slave owner had with his slaves, and the relationship between a mother
and fetus.

To deny that those differences exist is to exhibit the same degree of
arrogance that justified slavery.  The only difference is that you 
deny reality by refusing to accept real differences, and slave owners
denied reality by refusing to accept similarities.

And as an aside, the civil war was _not_ about slavery.

-- 
Ray Fischer                   "Every improvement in communication
ray@netcom.com                 makes the bore more terrible"  Frank Moore Colby
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:49750 talk.politics.drugs:6627 talk.politics.guns:21755 alt.politics.elections:15298 alt.politics.libertarian:581 alt.politics.marrou:1444
From: tms@cs.umd.edu (Tom Swiss (not Swift, not Suiss, Swiss!))
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.drugs,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Media coverage for Marrou/Lord (call these #'s!)
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:10:35 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Reality Liberation Front (pixels to the people!)

brokow@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Mike Brokowski) writes:
>
>/* Don't "throw away" your vote this year (and confirm your     */
>/* helplessness) by voting for the clown who would be elected   */
>/* *anyway*.  Vote for whomever you *want* to win; at least     */
>/* then you've been honest with yourself.                       */

     No one I _want_ to win is running! B-<

===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@cs.umd.edu  |  "Born to die"   |   Keep your laws off my brain!
     "What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe 
          This is a .signature antibody. Vaccinate your .sig!
Meeting, n:
      An assembly of people coming together to decide what person
      or department not represented in the room must solve a problem.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.mideast
From: regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Terminating a Pregnancy/Terminating a Command
Date: 29 Sep 1992 08:03:57 -0700
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <1992Sep28.235124.27379@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
>Terminating a Pregnancy is an interesting Euphemism.
>Isn't Terminating a Pregnancy so much more easy to swallow than 
>terminating a human life?

This semantics argument comes up all the time.

I think this sort of word play is only of interest to people who haven't an
arena of practical application.

The women who face this decision probably don't have the same problem you do,
Martin.  I really doubt there are women out there who say, "Yeah, if I call
it a 'thing', this will be easier to do!!!"

Adrienne Regard


Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.bush
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: Better Off Than Four Years Ago NOT
Organization: SPSS Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:17:31 GMT

kd1hz@anomaly.sbs.risc.net (Michael P. Deignan) writes:

>adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>
>>Until the banks, etc. pressure the govt. into indexing your fixed-rate
>>debts during hyperinflation...in other words, the debt goes up as the
>>inflation goes up....
>
>You wouldn't have any prior evidence of this now, would you?
>
>Nah, thought not.
>
What's your point?  I was speculating.  Assume that the debt continues to
grow.  Eventually, no matter what the interest rate is, there won't be
enough capital to fund it.  Assume further that instead of stopping
spending, Congress and the President decide to monetize the debt.  The
currency is devalued massively.  

In this case, if something isn't done, all of those mortgages and govt
debts become worthless.  The banking system collapses if you don't index
mortgages to the devalued currency...

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: The Decline of America: Short-Term Profit over Long-Term Good
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:48:29 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

harelb@math.cornell.edu (misc.activism.progressive co-moderator) writes:

>The Decline of America: Short-Term Profit over Long-Term Good
>
>[Excerpted from "Blood is Thicker than Oil;" see the file "briefs";
>originally published: In These Times, Sept. 19-25, 1990]
>
>==================================================================
>An interesting table on efficiencies (Recall this is Fall '89 issue):
>
>                Car    Home     Refrigerator    Gas Furnace    A/C
>===================================================================
>Model Average   18      190         4               210         10
>New Model Avg   27      110         3               180          7
>Best Model      50       68         2               140          5
>Best Prototype  77       11         1               110          3
>===================================================================
>
>    Car:            Miles/Gallon;
>    Home:           Thousand Joules/Sq. Meter;
>    Refrigerator:   Kilowatt-Hours/day;
>    Gas Furnace:    Million Joules/Day;
>    Air Conditioner:Kilowatt-Hours/Day
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Gathered from Scientific American's Special Issue, Sept. '89
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Assuming the values given above mean anything and are accurate]

This table ignores costs, practicality, availability, etc, etc.  Note the
HUGE increases in mileage ( > 50%) for new models of cars, efficiency of
Homes (>35%), efficiency of refrigerators (>25%), furnaces (>14%), and A/C
units (30%).

Then compare the Best Modeal with the current average.  Note the
improvement:

   Improvement of 'Best' over 'Average'

Car    : 50 vs 18   -> Improved 2.5 times
Home   : 68 vs 190  -> Now about 1/3 of previous
Refrig : 2 vs 4     -> Now 1/2 of previous
Furn   : 140 vs 210 -> Now about 2/5 or previous
A/C    : 5 vs 10    -> Now 1/2 of previous

I guess this isn't progress...

Talking actual production vs. theoretical prototypes is silly.  This table
seems to show the OPPOSITE of what Harel wants to say...

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections,talk.abortion,alt.sex
From: williamf@umbc5.umbc.edu (TheBigBopper)
Subject: Re: That Legal right over Gambit...
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:13:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.173521.27759@ncsu.edu> mhmulli@eos.ncsu.edu (MARTIN HARPER MULLIS) writes:
>
>>And lets not flower up what Dandy Dan did with a bunch of
>>Bullshit - the PUKE was a Draft Dodger with Nice Pull...
>
> Our friend here just discredited every member in the national guard.
> I guess since the national guard served in every war since its creation 
> it does not deserve to be considered military.
>  One wont find the guard any different than the army.
> When the guard came home from Saudi the veterans that fought in Nam 
> (who were with the guard) marched alongside.

 I want to choke up and cry huge patriotic tears.  What does this have to
 do with Quayle?  Just two weeks ago the NY Times nailed Quayle's dodge
 again.  Quayle joined a unit of the Guard that carefully monitored who 
 enrolled according to a Guard commandant quoted there.  Quayle got into
 the unit as a result of calls and inquiries made upon his behalf by his 
 uncle the Publisher/Owner of a chain of newspapers in Indiana.  The unit,
 according to the Times article, was under-enrolled because the existence
 of the unit wasn't widely publicised and the Guard leadership was careful
 to weed out perceived riff-raff.  Quayle got into the Guard as a result of
 privilege not as a result of merit.  I have no real problem with this:  this
 is America afterall but it is *very* hypocritical for Quayle of all people 
 to take shots at Clinton over the draft issue.

> When a persons draft number came up they had the option to 
> join the service of their choice. Some went to the navy, some the guard,
> and others the army. once you joined you had no idea if you were 
> going to war or not because some units did and some units did not.
> Any man that joins the military knows he may be called to battle and may die.
>for that reason he has served his country regardless of where he was stationed.
>
> Quayle served his country,  Clinton abandoned it.

 Quayle dodged getting a draft #.  Clinton got a draft # and got lucky.  
 

-- 
*   Christ died for our sins.  Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by *
*   not committing any?  So drink, fornicate, blaspheme, be a sodomite   *
*   and die...the price has already been paid.                           *
Warning: The Pope has determined the above sins are injurious to your health.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
From: dscharfe@dptspd.sat.datapoint.com (David Scharfe)
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR ROSS PEROT!
Organization: Datapoint Corporation, San Antonio, TX
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:51:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.223045.10058@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>In article <19q0n6INNvg@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
>(Thomas Hill) writes:
>
>|>   Just like to encourage everybody to show their support for Ross Perot
>|>for president. Change your sig file, put a sign in your car window, and
>|>spread the word about this decent man and his realistic plan to move this
>|>country forward.
>
>O.K. willco.
>
>---
>Phill Hallam-Baker
>
>Don't vote for Ross, hes a liar a quiter and a crook.

The "Organization" line for this message contained:
   "Deutsches Electronen Synchrotron ..."
where the ellipsis indicates some stuff I've forgotten.

Are you an American, Phill?

Dave
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Yet another lie/distortion from a Slick Willie supporter (Was Re: Oct 15th, 1932
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:30:05 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <BvMrtI.DGG@agora.rain.com> robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton) writes:
>In article <1992Oct4.170945.13361@u.washington.edu> tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
>>> demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:

>>>        In the current FORBES (60 years ago today...), there is a passage
>>>commenting on the errors of the pro-protectionist movement, and how
>>>Smoot-Hawley had reduced trade to foreign nations dramatically.

>>>	Let's all fax that to Clinton and Gore.

>  Clinton announced today that he finally supports NAFTA,
>although he still has "reservations".

Let's be a bit more accurate.  He supports NAFTA, but he wouldn't sign
the agreement in its present form.  He hasn't been specific about the
exact changes needed.

Once more Slick Willie tries to stand on both sides of the issue.  He
supports NAFTA - but he still won't sign it.  He supports free trade,
but the unions don't need to worry - he doesn't really support free
trade.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections,talk.abortion,alt.sex
From: frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de (Frank O'Dwyer)
Subject: Re: rights and responsibilities
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 18:41:01 GMT

regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
: In article <1992Sep22.173704.15681@sniap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
: >
: >Why do you feel society _owes_ you a second choice?  
: >Why has society no right to protect a foetus if it sees fit?
: 
: Society isn't involved.  Society doesn't "owe" anything, specifically not
: an adherance to some policy of 'responsible behavior' that is, on the face
: of it, irresponsible.

A gang threatens your daughter's life.  Is society involved now?  
Or are you going to strap on a bazooka and sort it yourself?
How about rape?  Society should butt the hell out, it's between a 
woman and her rapist, if I've got you right.

: And we'd like to keep it that way, thanks.

Tut, tut!  Speaking for the net, are we, or is this the royal we?  
Didn't I see you toast some newbie for just this net.crime recently?  

: Frank, nobody needs your permission to [ things I never said deleted]

I believe you'll find that you need somebody's permission to kill 
"thus and such person".  Try killing a cop, and see what happens.  

: Where folks figure that the contents of a bedroom or a womb is a fit subject
: for 'social scrutiny' evades me.  I'd rather *not* know what goes on in 
: Frank's bedroom, myself, or within his partner's womb.  *shudder*.

Thanks for the ad hominem - I feel priviliged - but what worries me is not what 
anybody gets up to in their bedroom, but what they get up to in abortion clinics.  

There now.  The end of the article. I responded every point she made, except
the personal remarks.  And I didn't make a single personal remark about her.  
Sometimes I amaze myself!  If only I had the same willpower when it came to
cigarettes....

:-) 
:-) Adrienne Regard
:-) 
--
Frank.ODwyer@ap.mchp.sni.de     "There are no unborn people, there are fetuses,
                                 or people not yet born (and hence not real)." 
				   - Ron Bense '92
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections,talk.abortion,alt.sex
From: chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman)
Subject: Re: rights and responsibilities
Keywords: significant words from a document used as an index to content
Organization: City of Saint Paul Public Works
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:18:14 GMT

varney@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Bruce Varney) writes:
> chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:

>> I can't help but remember asking you if you thought morning sickness,
>> gestational diabetes, etc. were merely inconvenient.  Why couldn't you
>> respond to those questions?

>        Mainly because you didn't ask them.

You're right; I asked those questions to Richard Lee.

>        But to your questions. I realize that the complications of
> pregnancy are more than just inconvenient. But they are not as bad 
> as death (exceptions noted, and spoken on many times over). Abortion
> always ends in death. I would not kill someone to cure myself of 
> a sickness (especially a non-chronic, non-lethal one). No one should be
> allowed to do so.

Who would that 'someone' be, Bruce?  Why does that 'someone' have rights
that no one else has?

>> Well, I'll tell you what I think of your charge: you are being extremely
>> judgemental and condemning about situations that you are in no position to
>> evaluate.  Tell you what: you get in a woman's face as she enters a clinic
>> that provides abortions and make that statement; we'll start a pool over
>> how far you'll land from the place you were standing.

>        Why am I in no position to evaluate it? Because I have not been in
> the situation myself? I have spoken on the invalidity of that reasoning
> before. Hmm. Have you ever been pregnant? Your opinion is worthless I
> guess then. Shut up.

First of all, you deleted your charge that women who have abortions are
selfish and irresponsible.  (You are welcome to correct me about the exact
wording.)  Secondly, and this will come as a complete shock to you, my
opinion is indeed worthless as to whether or not any individual pregnant
woman should have an abortion, as is yours.  The only opinion that really
counts is the woman's, wouldn't you say?  Perhaps both sides of the abortion
issue could benefit from your advice.

-- 
Chris Lyman  /  email: chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov  /  #include <std.disclaimers.h>
           "Remember! Arguments should be FUN!" -- Jessica McGeary

Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:49595 talk.politics.drugs:6606 talk.politics.guns:21713 alt.politics.elections:15190 alt.politics.libertarian:547 alt.politics.marrou:1429
From: erik@westworld.esd.sgi.com (Erik Fortune)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.drugs,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Media coverage for Marrou/Lord (call these #'s!)
Date: 6 Oct 92 00:41:08 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA


In article <5OCT199218410225@utarlg.uta.edu>, b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu writes:
> Perot has been in the media longer than the LP's been around.

Are you certain of that?  The first I'd ever heard of Perot was the
hostage thing.

-- Erik
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.abortion
From: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: Walking down to the student center last night
Reply-To: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:33:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.234633.22246@watson.ibm.com> 
margoli@watson.ibm.com writes:

>In  <1992Sep28.164104.18842@ms.uky.edu>  fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis) writes:

>> I don't know of many people who are comfortable with the idea of abortion
>> after fetal viability.

> 1.  Fetal viability is closer to the third trimester.
> 2.  Perhaps you've heard of something called Roe v. Wade?

Roe v. Wade is unrestricted abortion-on-demand throughout the
term of pregnancy.  The Supreme Court ruled that the states may
prohibit abortion during the third trimester except when the 
abortion is necessary to preserve the woman's "health" or life, 
but they gave "health" a very broad definition, including emotional 
and psychological health.  Thus women can obtain abortions
throughout the term of pregnancy for practically any reason.


>Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)


Doug Holtsinger

Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics,soc.motss
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: What is "Sexual Orientation"?
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 16:01:41 GMT
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.

In article <1992Sep25.192557.14209@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
>I would accept no law regulating the private consensual conduct of
>adults.  Straight or gay.  My position is consistent; which is more
>than you can claim.

You should be informed that some asshole is forging posts under your name then.

This idiot is claiming the "right" to regulate the adult consensual conduct
of other people, like who they can rent to or hire and stuff like that.

Pretty amazing the ideas that some jerks have, eh?



-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

"I can't get no satisfaction ...", M. Jagger
"Yeah, right, tell me another one Mick.", P. Ronzone

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)