From: roten@CUBA.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Roten)
Subject: Re: FWD: CND Books and Journals Review, Sept. 14, 1992
Followup-To: soc.culture.china
Organization: /cuba_b/dirbe/roten/.organization
X-Newsreader: GNU Emacs 18.57.1, GNUS 3.13, NNTP 3.10
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:58:21 GMT

In article <unreg-150992115219@cinder.ncl.ac.uk> 
unregistered@newcastle.ac.uk (sundaram) writes:

>In article <BuLust.IA@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo
>Xiong) wrote:
>> 
  [CND banner deleted]
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 1. "Laogai: The Chinese Gulag" by Hongda Harry Wu ...................... 52
>> 
  [other 3 topics deleted, for the sake of brevity]
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  [editor's note dleted]
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 1. "Laogai: The Chinese Gulag" by Hongda Harry Wu ...................... 52
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Steve Haber (shaber@ccm.UManitoba.CA)
>> Publisher: Westview Press; 247 pp. $34.95
>> 
>> Chinese communists: Blood stained; a review of:
>> 
>>   Laogai: The Chinese Gulag. by Hongda Harry Wu.
>>     Westview Press; 247 pp. $34.95
>>   Tears of Blood: A Cry for Tibet. by Mary Craig.
>>     Harper Collins 374 pp.
>> 
>> China has a terrible record of human rights.  It holds 15 million people in
>> labor camps and executes around 20,000 people each year. The death penalty
>> is applied for crimes as insignificant as the export of cultural relics and
>> works partly through quotas allocated to each province.  Chinese military
>> power also holds captive millions of people in Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner
>> Mongolia. It remains a mystery why these evils have attracted so little
>> attention.
>It remains a mystery why all your bullshit gets redistributed by Bo Xiong
                                   ^^^^^^^^

It also remains a mystery why Mr. 'unregistered' cannot refrain from use 
of smear words.  

>>Part of the explanation is a reluctance of outsiders to make too
>> much of China's cruelties lest they jeopardize opportunities for investment
>> and trade.
>Oh yes...let all the peasants pillage their ancient and cultural heritage
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and make a quick buck selling them to the West.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This merits DEATH ?!?!?!?!?  

>> 
>> A comprehensive account of Chinese (meaning the Beijing regime's) behavior
>> is still awaited.  It does the people of Tibet no particular good to have
>> yet another paean to the virtue of the Dalai Lama, like Mary Craig's, when
>> part of the reason that Tibet is under Chinese rule is that Lamaist Buddhism
>> failed to provide good government.  A more sophisticated study of the
>> politics and economics of Chinese rule might even demonstrate effective ways
>> for outsiders to help Tibetans and other Chinese minorities.
>> 
>> Mr. Wu's effort is not so disappointing.  After nearly 20 years in Chinese
>> labor camps, he is remarkably academic in his analysis of the scale of the
>> Chinese Gulag.  Although he is often vague about his sources for viciousness
>> he did not see, he still provides the most comprehensive documentation of
>> where and how China handles its prison population.  Mr. Wu's explanation of
>> why China behaves like this falls back on ideology, a plainly unsatisfactory
>> approach when Chinese economic ideology has changed so drastically even
>> while its ruling Communist Party has remained in power.
>Have you considered that Mr Wu may be schizoid if not down right mad...that's
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>why he keeps rambling on and on with unsubstantiated dogshit or is it
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>because dogshit in print is more valuable to western publishing houses.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One question .. where did Mr. 'unregistered' recieve his medical degree ?  
I would like to know where he learned to diagnose mental illness.  

I would also like to know why he seems compelled to refer to writings he 
disagrees with as 'dogshit' (sorry, but he _did_ choose to use that term).  

>> 
>> In fact, one of Mr. Wu's most unexpected revelations is the part played by
>> prison labor in China's surge into the international market economy.  The
>> Gulag makes so much money that it more than covers its costs.  One of the
>> reasons for the success of joint ventures with China is the fact that prison
>> labor is so cheap.
>One of the success of joint ventures in China is because...the ordinary
>peasants work hard in the newly set up factories....a change from the
>backbreaking labour of tilling the land. Fuck your mouth if you have twist
>the truth to sell your bullshit. What is more evil? Engendering lies to 
>sell your lousy book and take away the hopes of millions of workers 
>seeking for a better furture for their country through hard work.

I suspect that Mr. 'unregistered' grossly overestimates the power of a 
political expose to make sweeping changes.  

But if his estimate were _right_ .. AAAAHHHH !!  I could hose hundreds, 
nay, _thousands_, of clueless NASA bureaucrats into the street with the 
mere revelation of their cluelessness to a shocked world :-) :-) :-)  ... 

Sorry.  I dozed off a bit while typing the last paragraph, and started 
dreaming.  :-) :-)  See what entering a dream state can do when one is 
composing a post ?  :-) :-)

>> 
>> Enthusiasm for China's market economy fades as one contemplates the map of
>> labor camps in Guangdong province, the richest part of China's Gold Coast
>> and increasingly integrated into the international economy.  But then it is
>> the people in Hong Kong who are happy to buy organs for transplant from
>> prisoners in Guangdong, the tissue being matched before the "donors" are
>> executed.  Even before 1997, Hong Kong and China are well on the road to one
>> unpleasant kind of convergence.
>Really? Enthusiasm has faded.. doesn't square with facts...mister.China's
>market economy is booming and in spite of your attempts to smear the good
>names of all those establishments from HongKong,Japan and Taiwan now 
>investing in China.

Hmmm .. it seems to me that Mr. 'unregistered's assertion does not square 
with the text he cites .. since the text merely smears folks who make 
money off forced prison labor and organlegging .. not those who make 
profits from the unforced labor of free people in China.  

>> 
>> (The review is accompanied by a cartoon from Danziger of the Christian
>> Science Monitor.  A party official is busy showing off a humming prison
>> workshop (armed guards are patrolling) and says to the visiting foreign
>> businessmen: "Of course, as we Chinese move toward capitalism, we retain
>> some of the traditions of communism...")
>Yes wow....how cute, Harry....feel better now that you are no longer
>incarcerated? Pity the rest of the world now that your scummy jism is
>flooding the market. 
>> 
  [rest deleted .. Mr. 'unregistered' did not comment on the remainder 
   of Bo Xiong's post anyway]

Harry Wu spent 19 years in that prison system.  

So what do you expect him to do ?  _Kiss_ the system that locked him 
up ???  Yeah, Mr. 'unregistered' probably does, at that.  :-( :-(  

At least, when Harry Wu speaks, he has the courage to append his right 
name to his words, rather than hiding behind an alias.  

And he has the common decency to refrain from the use of foul language .. 
unlike a certain netter, to whose post I am responding.  

Let me make it clear that I was _not_ happy with the fact that Harry Wu 
gave testimony in Congress that might have damaged trade relations between 
the U.S. and China, a few months ago.  

But _BY_ _GOD_, that was his _RIGHT_ in this country !  No one had the 
power to incarcerate him for speaking his mind, even if, IMO, what he 
said was less than optimal for both countries in question.  

A far cry from the present-day PRC, right ?!?!?  Try to speak your mind 
politically _there_, right or wrong, and if the powers that be do not 
like it, you go to jail.  No Miranda rights there !!!!  No Supreme Court 
that can and sometimes does overturn the decisions of both the executive 
and legislative brances of government when they determine that such 
decisions conflict with the supreme law of the land.  No rule of law 
there, merely the rule of fickle and corruptable men.  Go to jail .. go 
directly to jail .. do not pass go .. do not receive benefit of counsel 
.. do not even expect the prison authorities to obey their own laws 
regarding the treatment of either the merely accused or the convicted.  

Every time I run across a netter who succumbs to the urge to not merely 
oppose, but obscenely defame, those with whom he or she disagrees, I 
wonder about the fitness of such a person to participate in the political 
process.  

Cursing is easy.  

Debate is harder.  

--
Charles Roten | Hughes-STX, Incorporated | 
  roten@cuba.gsfc.nasa.gov               | 'Use the Source, Luke!'
  7601 Ora-Glen Dr., Greenbelt, MD 20706 | 
  301-513-7805 (w),  301-317-0872 (h)    |            Obi-Wan Stallman
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan