HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mideur-l
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:53:41 -0400
From:         IVAN@PHYSICS.CARLETON.CA
Subject:      de-industrialization

>  I am puzzled by the repeated occurrence of the term "de-industrialization of
>Slovakia". The latest statement to this effect can be found on this list today.
>    The term entails, of course, that Slovakia was at one time
>industrialized and then the industry was destroyed or a similar calamity. I
>don't think that Slovakia was very industrialized while part of Hungary.
>So could somebody tell me when the industrialization of Slovakia took
>place, who was responsible for it and who later de-industrialized it and when?

> I am off to the mountains and the air will seem even fresher if I get the
>usual enlightenment before I leave. Thanks, H.k.

After Czecho-Slovakia was born, Slovaks received a lot of help from Czechs.
There were remarkable improvements in culture, educational system, public
institutions. Magyarization was stopped and young selfconfident Slovak
generation was formed at Bratislava and Prague universities.
   However, as we read from statistics, de-industrialization indeed took
place. As we were taught at school, Czech lands were the most industrialized
part of Austria and Slovakia the most industrialized part of Hungary (Uhorska).
The industrial character of Slovakia was given by its mountains rich in
ores. In the Middle Ages many Germans settled down in Slovakia and the
mining industry was begun, many Slovak towns have German origin, the first
mining university (in Europe ?) was founded in Banska Stiavnica.
   In 1918, Slovak industry was behind the Czech one. However, instead
of any progress, by 1925, Slovak factories, iron-works and glass-works
shut down in large numbers and industrial production fell down to 50 %
of the 1914 level. This resulted in massive emigration from Slovakia
(I read a couple weeks ago that according to 1990 statistics 1,800,000
US citizens claim to be Slovaks - I still cannot believe it) and, (one of the
reasons) in many Slovak emigrants not being happy about the common state
with Czechs.

                        Ivan Melo, Ottawa
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mideur-l
From: pgiltner@epas.utoronto.ca (Philip W. Giltner Jr.)
Subject: Re: I didn't know...
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 02:25:40 GMT

In article <MIDEUR-L%92081101101842@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET (Henry Kucera) writes:
>
>  As far as Bela Kun is concerned, I corrected my mistake (= misprint) of his
>name and of his dates (WW1 where I mistyped WW2) within about 20 minutes of the
>original posting. Is that not good enough?
> H.K.

It most certainly is. The trick w/ email is to read ALL
strings/messages before you respond to the first one you see. I wonder
how many messages are unnecessarily sent before such a correction as
yours is sent....

Best wishes

Philip
pgiltner@epasu.utoronto.ca

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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:52:09 -0500
From:         "Velibor M. Marenovic" <VMARENOVIC@MACALSTR.EDU>
Subject:      Clear statement....
X-To:         mideur-l%ubvm.bitnet@ksuvm.ksu.edu

>
> INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, August 12,1992
>
> SERB CAMPS UNLIKE NAZIS', EXPERT SAYS
>
> Vienna (Reuters)
>
> Simon Wiesenthal, the veteran Nazi hunter, said Tuesday that he rejected
> comparisons between detention camps in Bosnia and the Nazi concentration camps
> of WW II, saying they trivialized Germany's treatment of Jews.
>
> "To call the camps 'concentration camps' is a minimization of Nazi
> concentration camps, because not even Gulag camps could be compared with the
> Nazi camps," he said, referring to the Soviet labor camps, in an interview at
> his Jewsih Documentation Center.
>
> Mr. Wiesenthal, who spent four and a half years in German concentration camps,
> also accused the West of blaming only the Serbs for human rights abuses in the
> former Yugoslavia.
>
> "The first refugees were the 40,000 Serbs who fled Croatia after a
> constitutional amendment defined them as minority," he said.
>
> He said the Serbs themselves had legitimate fears in light of the killing of
> hundreds of thousands of their people under the Croatian puppet government set
> up by pro-Nazis in World War II.
>
>
> (Reprinted without permission from the International Herald Tribune)
>
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 00:13:24 -0500
From:         "Velibor M. Marenovic" <VMARENOVIC@MACALSTR.EDU>
Subject:      USA Today
X-To:         mideur-l%ubvm.bitnet@ksuvm.ksu.edu

>
> DECISIONLINE: International News
> USA TODAY Update
> Aug. 12, 1992
> Source: USA TODAY:Gannett National Information Network
>
> SERBIA OFFERS EVACUATION:
>    Serbia offered Tuesday to evacuate woman and children from
> Sarajevo and invited Nazi concentration camp survivor Elie Wiesel
> to inspect Serb-run detention camps. The U.N. Security Council is
> expected to go ahead with twin resolutions - probably Thursday -
> authorizing "all necessary means" to deliver relief aid to Bosnia
> and demanding access to the camps.
>
> `ETHNIC CLEANSING' UNCOVERED:
>    The United Nations charged Tuesday that Serbia is forcing
> 28,000 people - mostly Muslims - from their homes as part of the
> Serbian campaign of "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia. The move of
> people out of Sarajevo puts U.N. officials in a quandry: If they
> help the Bosnians escape, they will be aiding the Serb campaign to
> rid Bosnia of the Muslims; if they don't, the Bosnians may die.
>
> STOP WOULD REQUIRE 400,000:
>    Stopping the fighting in Yugoslavia would require at least
> 400,000 troops - with high casualties and an uncertain outcome, a
> U.S. Army Lt. Gen. Barry McCaffrey warned Tuesday. He and others
> told a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing that military
> action would be difficult and dangerous. The Bush administration
> seeks U.N. approval for limited military force to protect relief
> efforts.
>
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:04:54 -0400
From:         Agnes Kruchio <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      George Frajkor and "De-industrialization" posting
X-To:         MIDEUR-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              Aug 12, 92 3:58 pm

George Frajkor -

George, George, you really ought to get a refresher course in
parsing...it *might* be an idea to read *all* of messages before
sending a reply, peppery or otherwise. For example, the posting below
was not written by me but by HENRY KUCERA; I only added a few playful
lines and wished Henry a good trip to the mountains, which you
obviously did not read to have misattributed the posting to me.
(I sure hope you don't apply this technique to your journalism
or historical work...it is *not* the first or the second time, and
sometimes the misreads can be a wee bit more serious...)

Agnes
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> Agnes Kruchio writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NOTE : THIS SHOULD BE "HENRY KUCERA writes:"
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> > >I am puzzled by the repeated occurrence of the term "de-industrialization
 of
> > > Slovakia". The latest statement to this effect can be found on this list
> >  today.
> > >
[... rest deleted]
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 05:35:26 -0700
From:         Robert Horvitz <antenna@WELL.SF.CA.US>
X-To:         mideur-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Path:
 well!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!mips!sgi!cdp!pnmideast
From: pnmideast@igc.apc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:07 PDT
Subject: Updated list of peace grps in x-YU
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300367:000:2826
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Aug 19 19:07:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: Updated list of peace grps in x-YU

/* Written  3:22 pm  Aug 19, 1992 by gn:warresisters in cdp:yugo.antiwar */
/* ---------- "Updated list of peace grps in x-YU" ---------- */
(18 August 1992)

Anti-war centres and contacts in former-Yugoslavia

Bosnia-Herzegovina:

International Peace Centre, Sarajevo (tel Ibrahim Spahic +38 71
646455; fax +38 71 663730 or 663626; email zlatljiljan@gn.apc.org)

Croatia:

Centre for Peace, Nonviolence, and Human Rights, Tkalci~eva 38,
41000 Zagreb (tel +38 41 422 495;  fax + 38 41 271 143; email
ark_zg@zamir-zg.comlink.apc.org)

Antiwar Campaign Croatia (ARK), Tkalciceva 38, 41000 Zagreb (tel +38
41 422 495;  fax + 38 41 271 143; email ark_zg@zamir-
zg.comlink.apc.org)

Democratic Forum Rijeka (tel Sura Dumanic +38 51 713291)

Kosova:

Democratic League of Kosova, Prishtine (tel +38 38 24234; tel/fax
+38 38 27660)

Macedonia:

Green Action Skopje, c/o Jovan Nansijevski (Tel: +38 91 213 966;
fax: +38 91 201 75)

Forum for Human Rights of Macedonia, c/o Meto Jovanovski, St. P.
Zografski 51, 91000 Skopje (tel +38 91 219 067)

Women for Peace, Skopje tel +38 91 210627; fax 236856

Montenegro:

Citizens Committee for Peace, Hercegovacka 15, 81000 Titograd
(tel/fax: +38 81 41914)

Serbia:

Centre for Anti-War Action, Prote Mateje 6, 11000 Belgrade (tel and
fax +38 11 431 298; email zamir-bg@comlink.apc.org)

GAMA (Citizens Action for Peace), Prof Milandin Zivotic, Dom
Omladine, Makedonska 22, 11000 Belgrade

Women in Black, c/o Stasa Zajovic, Dragoslava Popovica 9/10, 11
Belgrade (tel: Lepa, +38 11 624 701)

Slovenia:

Peace Institute, Mestni trg 13, 61000 Ljubljana (tel +38 61 224 666;
email mirovniki@uni-lj.ac.mail.yu)

Centre for the Culture of Peace and Nonviolence, Mestni trg 13,
61000 Ljubljana (tel +38 61 224 666; email mirovniki@uni-
lj.ac.mail.yu)

Vojvodina:

Anti-War Centre of Ada, Vera Vebel, Sencanski Put 27, 24430 Ada
Anti-War Centre of Novi Sad, c/o Nenad Mirovic, Narodnog Fronta 43,
21000 Novi Sad (+38 21 363 302; fax: +38 21 57 797)

European Civic Centre for Conflict Resolution, trg Cara Jovana
Nenada 15, 24000 Subotica (tel +38 24 24600; fax 37116)

Peace Movement of Pancevo, c/o Sasa Marinkovic, Br Jovanovica 62a,
26000 Pancevo, Vojvodina (tel: +38 13 38 82; fax: +38 13 41 735)

Peace Movement Vojvodina, c/o Slavenka Ljubic, Maksima Gorkog
10/III, 2100 Novi Sad (tel: +38 21 619 019)

Women in Black, Biljana Regodic, Vojvodanska 53, 26000 Pancevo (tel:
+38 512 641)

A few international addresses:

Mi Za Mir, PO Box 4920, 1009 AX Amsterdam, Netherlands (fax +31 20
665 2422) (all nationalities)

Zene Za Mir, c/o Martin-Niemoeller-Haus, Pacellialee 61, D-W-1000
Berlin 33, Germany (women; all nationalities)

Di YU log for Peace 3411 W. Diversey Parkway Chicago, IL  60647 (+1
312 384 8544; fax 384 3904)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mideur-l
Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1992 20:23:04 -0400
From:         Agnes Kruchio <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Do you trust Meciar?
X-To:         MIDEUR-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              "HOVMB.HOU281.CHEVRON.COM!TKMARC" at Aug 15, 92 9:44 am

>
> >> >>     You're right and I'm glad we agree on something.  I never did
> >> >>trust Rita Klimova, Miroslav Kusy, Vladimir Dlouhy, Marian Calfa, Jiri
> >> >>Dienstbier and the rest of those Communists Havel and the Czech
> >> >>government put into positions of trust.
> >> >
[...]
> >> >kept out. Maybe we can agree on more: what about Meciar and other
> >> >Communists in the present Slovak govt--do you trust them?
> >>
> >> Mr Frajkor: did I miss your response to the question immediately above?
> >
> >      You must have. I replied that I do not trust any former
> >communist except those with whom I have enough personal experience to
> >be able to make a judgement, or those whose public actions have
> >indicated they can be trusted.
> >  But to expand on that, Dubcek and Meciar, for example, were
> >expelled from the Communist party a long time ago... i presume the
> >Communists know who their enemies are.

After the above exchange by various people, Kamil Marcinka writes:

> But Mr Frajkor, I'm sure I'm not the only one curious why do you
> arbitrarily apply the "long time ago" criterion to Meciar and Dubcek,
> but not to Klimova, Kusy, and Dienstbier...

Adding to this point -
When George F. states,  "I presume the Communists know who their enemies
are" - he seems speak as if he were not aware that the history of
communism in EE, the xSU, not to mention China - communism anywhere
and everywhere - is the history of internecine warfare: communist
declaring *each other* enemies - of communism, of the people, out
of ideological differences truly held, simply out of convenience because of
some temporary power struggle, or out of some otherwise pedestrian
personality conflict clothed in the elevated garb of ideology.
I would be careful, George, not to defend Meciar as a being trustworthy
merely because he was declared an enemy by communists. Strongly shared
beliefs in one sphere (you and Meciar share some beliefs regarding
C-S, Slovakia as you have often stated) often blind us to unpleasant
possibilities/probabilities in others.
AK
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:05:26 EDT
From:         George Frajkor <gfrajkor@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject:      Re: George Frajkor and "De-industrialization" posting
X-To:         MIDEUR-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              Kruchio" at Aug 12, 92 11:04 pm

Agnes Kruchio writes:
>
> George Frajkor -
>
> George, George, you really ought to get a refresher course in
> parsing...

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > Agnes Kruchio writes:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> NOTE : THIS SHOULD BE "HENRY KUCERA writes:"
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > >
> > > >I am puzzled by the repeated occurrence of the term "de-industrialization
>  of
> > > > Slovakia". The latest statement to this effect can be found on this list
> > >  today.
> > > >
> [... rest deleted]

              Maybe I am presuming too much knowledge about network
protocol.  If you notice the number of >>> in front of the quote you
will see that I am replying to your reply to Henry.

>  this is your message
       this is my reply

>> this is your message in reply to someone (let's say henry)
>  this is henry's statement to which you are referring.
      this is my reply

>>> this is your comment about my reply to your answer to henry
>>  etc.

       I take it for granted that people on the net know this, but
clearly it is not as obvious as I thought so I shall try to make it
clearer.

    Jan George Frajkor
 School of Journalism                      _!_
 Carleton University,                     __!__
 Ottawa, Ontario                            !
 Canada K1S 5B6                             !
   -- gfrajkor@ccs.carleton.ca --          /^\
  613 788-7404     fax:613 788-5604    /^\/   \/^\
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From: pgiltner@epas.utoronto.ca (Philip W. Giltner Jr.)
Subject: poetry in slovakia
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 02:00:19 GMT

Recently, I've heard that there's been an interesting development of
enlightenment ideals in Central Europe. Apparently, the Slovak
minister of Culture has taken court action against a Slovak poet,
Lubomir Feldek, for writing:

"In Prague Havel the prisoner
Has resigned his presidency.
In Bratislava the prosecutor
rules again
and the rule by one party is more
than the law.
The SS-man has embraced the StB-man."

I thought that Cultural Ministers were supposed to encourage the arts.
Now we stupid Americans don't have such ministers, so perhaps I don't
understand.

What I would like to know is whether the SS-man does in fact refer to
Minister of Culture Dusan Slobodnik and the StB-man refers to the
present Slovak Prime Minister Mr. Meciar whose StB code-name was "Doktor'?

Just wondering.

Philip
pgiltner@epasu.utoronto.ca

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Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1992 09:44:31 PDT
From:         lhdsy1!HOVMB.HOU281.CHEVRON.COM!TKMARC@UUNET.UU.NET
Subject:      Re: Do you trust Meciar?
X-To:         uunet!ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu!slovak-l@uunet.UU.NET,
              uunet!ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu!mideur-l@uunet.UU.NET

>> >>     You're right and I'm glad we agree on something.  I never did
>> >>trust Rita Klimova, Miroslav Kusy, Vladimir Dlouhy, Marian Calfa, Jiri
>> >>Dienstbier and the rest of those Communists Havel and the Czech
>> >>government put into positions of trust.
>> >
>> >True, some of the ex-communists named above fared very poorly.
>> >Things might have been different (better) for C-S if they had been
>> >kept out. Maybe we can agree on more: what about Meciar and other
>> >Communists in the present Slovak govt--do you trust them?
>>
>> Mr Frajkor: did I miss your response to the question immediately above?
>
>      You must have. I replied that I do not trust any former
>communist except those with whom I have enough personal experience to
>be able to make a judgement, or those whose public actions have
>indicated they can be trusted.
>  But to expand on that, Dubcek and Meciar, for example, were
>expelled from the Communist party a long time ago... i presume the
>Communists know who their enemies are.

But Mr Frajkor, I'm sure I'm not the only one curious why do you
arbitrarily apply the "long time ago" criterion to Meciar and Dubcek,
but not to Klimova, Kusy, and Dienstbier...

--Kamil Marcinka (Internet address: tkmarc@hovmb.ion.chevron.com)
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Organization: University of Waterloo
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 01:36:43 -0400
From:         "Andrej Brodnik (Andy)" <abrodnik@WATDRAGON.WATERLOO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Serbian demonstrations
X-To:         MIDEUR-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              "Velibor M. Marenovic" at Aug 13, 92 1:58 am

> From: "Velibor M. Marenovic" <VMARENOVIC@MACALSTR.EDU>
>
> Hope to see you there!!!!

For sure, if:

> >
> >      SERBS and FRIENDS OF THE SERBIAN PEOPLE!
> >            We announce hereby that a
> >
> >    A MASS DEMONSTRATION in SUPPORT OF SELF-DETERMINATION
> >          for SERBS IN BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA

this includes also support of self-determination for Muslim Slavs and
Croats in B&H.

> > NOTHING CAN FORCE BOSNIAN SERBS TO LIVE IN A MUSLIM-DOMINATED STATE
> > AGAINST THEIR OWN VOTE!

But why should Muslim Slavs and Croats be forced to live in a
Serbian-dominated stete against their own vote?

> > On this day, the Serbian demonstrators will demand that the United
> > Nations mediate negotiations about a peaceful territorial division of
> > Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Among whome? On what basis?

> > Let us come before the building of the United Nations, and let us tell
> > the world that
> >
> > SERBS IN BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA HAVE A RIGHT TO LIVE INDEPENDENTLY ON
> >       THEIR MAJORITY-POPULATED, HISTORIC TERRITORIES!

And so do have Muslim-Slavs and Croats right to live independently on
their majotity-populated (who cares about historic!) territories.

> > Join THOUSANDS of fellow Serbs from across the U.S.  This rally is to
> > be not only a demonstration in support of our embattled brethren, but a
> > demonstration that ALL Serbian organizations today stand unified in a
> > common Serbian cause.

And what is "common Serbian cause"?

Regards and, please, bring in tolerance,

Andrej

PS: The best way for tolerance is to put yourself in the other side's
position.
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:24:00 EET
From:         MHELANDER@FINUHA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Investment

The comparison between Austria and Finland is very fruitful also because of the
same kind of socialdemocratic neo-corporativism, both countries have examined
after wwII.

Very interresting analysis!

Could someone give me the exact / official date of the unification of Germany?

- Mika Helander
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:59:50 -0400
From:         Agnes Kruchio <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      Re: De-industrialization
X-To:         MIDEUR-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              12, 92 1:04 pm

>
>   I am puzzled by the repeated occurrence of the term "de-industrialization of
> Slovakia". The latest statement to this effect can be found on this list
 today.
>     The term entails, of course, that Slovakia was at one time
> industrialized and then the industry was destroyed or a similar calamity. I
> don't think that Slovakia was very industrialized while part of Hungary.
> So could somebody tell me when the industrialization of Slovakia took
> place, who was responsible for it and who later de-industrialized it and when?
>
>  I am off to the mountains and the air will seem even fresher if I get the
> usual enlightenment before I leave. Thanks, H.K.
>

I dunno, Henry. Maybe just another one of those "myths"? But maybe it
has to do with the [possible?] decrease in demand for the products of
the arms industry in Slovakia???, ostensible end of cold war and all
that...Just a wild guess. (chasing after a [wild] canard...(or should
that be "goose"?)

Have a nice time in the mountains, Henry. (Lucky you.) And bring back
some oxygen - this list could sure use some!

Agnes
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 01:39:24 -0400
From:         "Andrej Brodnik (Andy)" <abrodnik@WATDRAGON.WATERLOO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Real thing....
X-To:         MIDEUR-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              "Velibor M. Marenovic" at Aug 13, 92 1:39 am

> From: "Velibor M. Marenovic" <VMARENOVIC@MACALSTR.EDU>
>
> I hope all of you "warried" will recognize that Orthodoxy and genocide have
> nothing in common.

Just to clarify something here. Orthodoxy and Serbian cause are far
from being the same! Very, very far!!

Regards,

Andrej
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:52:00 N
From:         Guenther Augustin <AUGUSTIN@DHDMPI50.BITNET>
Subject:      german unification

....
>
> Could someone give me the exact / official date of the unification of Germany?
>
> - Mika Helander
>

The exact date is 3rd of October 1990. That is the date when the
unification treaty ("Einigungsvertrag") between the former German Democratic
Republic and the Federal Republic of Germany became effective
(the GDR ceased to exist and the five new "states" - "Bundeslaender" - joined
the FRG according to the corresponding constitutional regulations).
This date is also the new national anniversary ("Nationalfeiertag"),
overseeding the 17th of June, the anniversary of a workers revolt in East
Berlin in the year 1953. The latter date was also known as the "day of
german unity" ("Tag der Deutschen Einheit").

  Regards

    auge

------------------------------------------------------------------
Guenther Augustin, Heidelberg, Germany (BITNET: AUGUSTIN@DHDMPI5V)
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