From: west@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce West)
Subject: Re: Racism in SF2
Organization: University of North Texas, Denton
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:21:12 GMT

In article <Bxvqqq.M8J@news.iastate.edu> txam1@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>In article <1992Nov17.154247.1428@mercury.unt.edu>, west@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce West) writes:
[my freedom of speech/Howard Stern deleted]
>-----Then to comes an issue of the things deemed moral and immoral by the social 
>majority. You mean to tell me that you think censorship of EVERY kind is
>wrong? This cannot be. Ok what if the KKK was aloud to put up bilboards

   FUCK YES!  Who is to say what people are allowed to say!  You are going
down a dangerous road when you decide who is social correct.

>all over the United States, somehow get control of a couple of networks,
>and gain greater political and social infulence than they hold now?

   Faulty premise.  I said they can SAY whatever they want.  This does not
mean in anyway they would gain political control or social influence.  I
would hope most people would dismiss them.  But they MUST be allowed to
speak.  DON'T DRAW THE LINE - IT WILL BE MOVED ON YOU!

>Are you saying that this wouldnt effect the views and subconsiously get into
>the minds of young white boys and girls? If you've noticed, A parent can't
>shield his or her child from every aspect of communication in this nation.
>You cant overlook the fact that some forms o censorship are out there to
>protect our best intrests. Then again you have to look at the other side?      

   That is ALWAYS the guise of censorship - "to protect you."  And I'll tell
you what happens to young ones.  They hear a bunch of shit (assuming the
parents can't protect their little ears).  They say "mommy, mommy,  look at
that nigger..."  And BOOM!  That kid will understand the parents views on
the topic and will get the facts.  Then he/she will make up their own mind
in time [the way it always has been, but we are afraid to admit it].

>You cant overlook the KKK's right to be able to put up a bilboard anywhere
>they can or want. (within the law of course) What do you think? Cenorship
>good for the people as a whole or bad for the people as a hole in that case?

   GOOD, and I'll tell you why.  I would hope another group would put up a
huge billboard next to that one refuting every argument with *fact*.
This is what we call public debate - and this is how we GET the *evolution*
you have been wanting.  If we don't talk this out head to head nothing will
change - you can't run from these idiots, or pretend they don't exist.
I say: Let em say their peace, and we'll say our peace.  And in the end
people will see how stupid group X really is.  
   And I'll tell you another thing - that is sure of a hell a lot better
than the way people with influence and power now get to sneak their 
messages into many media forms.  Make it OPEN!  That's what this country is
about.  I can't remember the last time this country had a serious religous
debate -- they used to be common.

[stuff abut communism and whitebread america deleted]
[my examples of anti-establishment show deleted]
>now.I don't like the road it can POTENTIALY head down but i dont believe that
>it will go that far. The critics are not praising "black movies" becuase they

   The only way to get "freedom" is start with FREEDOM OF SPEECH.  You can't
get shit till you can ask for it!

>think that they are especially great. Until Malcom X what so called "black
>movie" actor or cenamatographer was even thought about for an award
>(other than the color purple which already had been played in by black
>actors and actress that had already been accepted by white america?
>Oprah, Danny Glover, Whoopi Goldberg, etc.) of any kind. What else can they do

   Well, I'm not going to judge the US or the people in it by some backward
Hollywood organanization called the Academy.  

>but praise the movies? What the hell does Gene Siskel know about life in
>the streets of south central Los Angeles? (funny huh?)  How can you fairly

   One could also argue what the hell do the people on the streets of LA
know about success.  It's the same mentality.

>critic something that you cannot relate to? Or dont  know anything about for

  Same argument as above.  So I guess nobody from sc LA will be allowed to
judge how well done Wallstreet or Secret of My Succes was ;)  I don't
subscribe to the view that "if you've never been..." then you can't talk on
the issue.  Otherwise blacks CANT talk about whites, and visa versa.  Cause
neither have ever been the other.  Women shouldn't talk about or judge
men, and visa versa.  And we should all sit in cubicals - since nobody has
really had the exact same existance as *you* have (general you).
  People have got to stop judging books by the cover, and just look at
people as people.  I personally don't give any shit whatsoever what someone's
life experience is - it may help me understand one's point of view, but it
sure as hell doesn't make em right.

>that matter.  Unlimited movies from hollywood had dipicted blacks and
>other minorities (namely hispanics) as drug dealears, pimps, hookers, maids
>gangsters, stupid, slang talking, uneducated, (need i go on?). There is no
>way you can say that this hasnt subconsiouly effected the collective view
>of whites in this nation. I know it has! Here at Iowa State (a predominantly

   Well, every Italian I see is in the Mafia - hasn't held me back!  I think
what *does* happen is you a) see all these movies b) an uneducated slang
talking person of such race come up to you or applies for a job - and you
make the association.  For example, when I wear my trenchcoat and go out
at 4 smoking I am often seen as a gangster (big resemblence in build).  But
when I get into the professional arena I am a different person - and that
association is never made!
   One of the major problems *is* there are too many slang talking uneducated
minorities!  Take for example surfers, "hey dude."  When I moved to TX all I
had to say is I was from CA and say "hey dude" and BOOM - I was a stupid
surfer guy.  If I don't do that then the association is never made.  ie.
Ever see Die Hard.  The black hacker in that could never in a million
years be called a thug.  If he went in for a job he would have no problem.
What the problem is many black people would call him *white*. Why, I dunno.
(I say this cause I was watching it yesterday and noticed this)

>white Universty, a false sense of fear, distrust, and superiority still
>exists among many. If you need examples you obviosly want to read a novel of

   Well, I can say I have NEVER seen such a group of racist blacks as in
college (back when I was at UT).  You would walk out of Jester dorm (3000
people) and it was the African nation.  Not a single black talking to a 
white guy.  They just formed in huge groups for you to wade through, they
gave you dirty lucks as you brushed against them, it was sick.  Not a one
of them speaking decent English.  THIS IS COLLEGE.  The open mind discussion
of the world forum!  And there was this intense close-mindedness.
   I say this cause my Mexican girlfriend pointed something outrageous to me.
Blacks make up 2% of the UT population (50k students), Hispanics 14%!!!
And believe me, nobody would ever have thought that.  They essencially
took over the place to show that they could - they were loud, obnoxious,
elitist, supremist, and forced you to see em.  You couldn't even watch
TV in the lounge cause the backlog from the entrance went all the way into
the lounge - so you couldn't hear the TV at full blast!
   I am in no way saying this is indicitive of blacks in general.  But I *am*
saying their is a serious anti-everybodybutblack movement out there - and
I think it is being called "black pride" (bullshit).  I'll tell you I don't
even know if I have Italian pride cause I've never thought of it - but I
know I have pride in myself, and that's enough.  We need to start teaching
people that people are just that.  Everyone is a *person* and should be
treated as such.  This message has obviously been concentrated too much on
the white population - cause many blacks have missed the boat.  I really
think Martin Luther King would be ashamed of the official actions of the
black race today.

>some sort cuz i could go on an on (like am doing anyway). For a time
>the only Blacks you could see on the news where getting arrested (with minor
>exeptions). Who controls all this? 

   I have no idea.  People who control tv put on tv what they *think* you
want.  This is a good example of why PC is bad.  Say those same people in
charge of TV were in charge of the PC guidelines.  And they thought everyone
thought blacks only get arrested and nobody minded.  Maybe you would be 
singing a different tune?  Maybe you would think it was a tad racist even.
Believe these things always get back to be controlled by the people in
power -- FIGHT THE ROOT CAUSE!  Stamp out censorship!

[my speech of how PC will come back to haunt us and censor us]
>againstit.
>When there is equality there wont be a need for PC. That is my main point.
>I admit there are groups that are taking PC to extrems out of there own selfish
>desires. But if the government worked in the way it should have this wouldnt
>occur. Do you actually believe you can work within this system to create

  EXACTLY!  Fix the governemt - the root cause.  Not the secondary issues.

>change? Not! The government (mainly big business) controls ALL the information
>we recieve. TV, radio, and the Press. While there may be journalist out there

   EXACTLY!  SO VOTE INDEPENDENT DAMMIT.  It's the same people like you 
who bitch and moan about not being able to change governemnt -- but then
they get scared to vote for Perot (Wasted vote), they are scared to vote for
independents, they are scared to vote against encumbents...and then they say
"nothing has changed, waaaaaah".

>who have individualized ideas, those ideas still have to go through the top
>which is unfortunatley controlled by the elite few 85% percent of the
>major news papers in this country are controlled by 2 people! count them 2!
>The same guy owns the Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, New York Times, the
>Los Angeles Sun, (need i go on). These guys have the power to influence
>the way that Mainstreammerica thinks. If you had read in all Newsweek, your

  Well, if people would just take the infinite words of wisdom -- "don't
believe everything you read" then we wouldn't have a problem.  Go out
and get your own facts.  Or get them from different sources and draw your
own conclusions.

>major paper, and saw on televison that Clinton's raped at young girl when
>he was 27 woul he be president? Nope. The point is this. PC like everything

  Don't get me started on Clinton ;)  I see him akin to PC, he's like
bringing a knife to a gunfight.

>else has its bad and good points. It is just a PHASE (in my opinion).
>The system of behind the scences political control, lobbyists, and special
>intrest groups is in tact so stongly that a vote of any kind will not 
>restore or do anything for this country that will be suffiently positive
>enough to bring any kind of real political power to the common man.

  Elect a fucking common man - it's not that tough.  While everyone is out
there whining and saying "when will we have a black woman president" - why
don't we worry about getting some common people up there!  Intelligent,
succesful people who arn't politicans and know what needs to be done.
Get involved in United We Stand (can't say that enough).  We're going for
congress in 94!  This is a fucking revolution - and hopefully we can have
a "bloodless revolution" one of the years.  When we take our country back 
through congress and the president.

>When i say revolution people automatically think violence. This is not 
>nessicarily the case. Although it may be required to bring change its not
>completely nessacary. Revolution is not always bad. Hell its usually good 
>for that matter. But america has been brought up and socailized to think
>that in the middle is good left or right is bad. That why many people who
>may have right or leftist views still consider themselves moderates or liberals
>and sometimes even conservative. Everyone belives in there own freedom of

   Yep.  this country was founded on the revolution concept.  To paraphrase
our constitution "if the government fucks you over, kick their ass."

>speech but not everyone doesnt believe in everyonelses freedom of speech.
>I have a little survey i'll mail you if you want to take the social test
>to tell you whether or not your views are really true to your political and
>or social classification. 

  Cool, send it to me (damn, my mail is broke, hmm).  Send it to FC19@vaxa.acs
.unt.edu.  Although I don't believe in tests I'll check it out.  Exactly,
that is a problem - we have become too much of a "vote your pocketbook"
society rather than "vote you principles".  This is much like when you say
the KKK shouldn't allowed to speak ;) 

[how to change out government]
>--There has never been freedom of speech. And we are never gonna get it
>until there is a change made in the government. Freedom of Speech has become

  Yep!  So do what I said up above.

>a moral issue. ANd in that sense it CANT be comprimised. So that fight will go
>on. True freedom i think is a step in the right dir for freedom of speech.
>True freedom for all is when everyone can be treated in the same way. By every
>one else. WHEN everyones mind is free. Then we can start to progress as at 
>a rate that is unheard of in the minds of this nation's people. 

   OPPOSITE.  We need freedom of speech FIRST.  That's the only way we can
change people's minds and get all people to be created equal.  Without freedom
of speech we would never have heard the "I had a dream..." speech!  Who knows
how many such speeches, and how many Martin Luther Kings have not been allowed
to speak due to restrictions?  This must be stopped, we need freedom of speech.

[my governemtn spew again]
>( I did vote for Perot. But again i dont think that he is the answer. I think
>that he could offer a change in the way things worked (which is about all your
>vote can do for you these days anyway. In case you had noticed you vote doesnt
>mean a damned thing. I voted for Perot cuz i feel at least he has the money
>and the power to speak for himself and think for himself. Right now Clinton
>does not give a fuck about you and me. He is worring about how he is gonna
>fulfill his obligations to all the rich mutherfuckers that donated money to his

   If we could elect Perot, and a whole slew of non-politician congressman,
you would have your revolution!  Imagine no more minority/majority leaders!
No more Rep/Dem seperated areas in congress.  No more bullshit!  I wanna
hear the fucking bad news!  Then lets go at step by step.  10 to 1 there
is so much shit happening we are clueless about its rediculous!  Who the
hell ever heard of an 800+ page budget?!?!?  And no line item vetoe?!?!
What drug are you these guys on?

>
>campaign. (thats the same shit that happend to bush and he ended up not bieng
>able to do what he said he wanted to do for the people. Thats why his ass is
>gone. Only if the economy was good for the rich and themiddle class does
>the President get to stay twice (thats the new trend i think). Fuck the poor

   assuming that the rich and middle class are the majority.  Which would be
considered "good times" by many - since *most* Americans would be rich or middle
class (I would settle for that these days).

>fuck the minority. Hell who needs em. They always vote democratic anyway
>Thats what the government thinks and knows.> i'll have more to say on this
>i just gotta go to class now.

   agreed!

>>>Jason Gregory
>>>So. Political Science
>>>Iowa State University


Jason West
CS

>>pps:  Don't respond by email -- i don't get my mail right now for some reason.
>