From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: what is the meaning of Genesis3, for real dough!
Organization: The serpent made me do it!
	<fR68HZi@quack.sac.ca.us> <lackdbINNe1k@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:03:41 GMT

In article <lackdbINNe1k@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> 
danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR]) writes:
>Yes, one could make the argument: if we take the serpent for
>the pursuit of knowledge (and technology, and ....) without
>any ethical or moral reflection or philosophy, then one could
>say we HAVE been worshipping the serpent since the industrial
>revolution at least.

Since the neolithic when we first took control of nature with the 
domestication of plants and animals. J/C/I has it's roots in the neolithic. So
you are saying that we have been worshipping the serpent as symbolic of this
knowledge, but we have failed to judge good and bad with our knowledge of
it obtained from the fruit? So far? Thus we tasted forbidden fruit, but have
not taken advantage of it on the assumption of consumption being a sin?

>Good point about death and punishment. I suppose this could be 
>another thread. If there were no death, there probably would
>be insufficient motivation to get out of bed, eh? Also, how
>would we attach ultimate meaning to our life without anything
>ultimate in it (i.e., death)? Perhaps death is infinite, and
>we finite beings yearning for the infinite, also yearn for death? 

Of course I find it ironic that in mainstream Western culture, we despise
humanity, all of flesh is evil and no good will ever come from it, and yet
when the time comes to die and leave that which we hate, we kick and scream
and beg for more. We will spend our live's savings to prolong our miserable
life just a few years more. We want drugs to block the pain and suffering
of humanity, and drugs to extend humanity at the same time. Does the
logic follow? Doesn't it make more sense to act the role of human being
when the play is on, joyful participation in the sorrows of the world, and
to die with honor when the time comes? Live when the time is for living and
die when the time is for dieing? Die when it is a good day to die?

>Let's not forget also: Superego=god, A&E=undifferentiated ego,
>serpent=id.
>And again, the almighty father is a complex, no?
>The grand inquisitor? the absent one? the one who hides?
>The "Be right back - Godot" who never returns from the 7-11?

Yeah, Freud didn't have to look to far. I'll be right back, spoken as a
father trying to teach something. Separation as neccesary for individuation?

>Yes sin = estrangement, for that is the original meaning of
>the word. And it is that estrangement, the unconscious
>remembrance of when we were one with another, whole and safe
>that we yearn for, ever after.
>
>We must be careful how we use the word "sin". Neither the baby
>nor the mother "sins" at birth, yet sin is the end result, for
>estrangement as a requisite condition for the baby's individuation
>is inevitable.

OK, but the way you are using sin is different than the common understanding,
Si, I mean Jes? One normally thinks of Hitler as the ultimate sinner, but
he had a choice, right? And there was no need for that outburst of hatred,
right? But birth, if it is a sin, is different. It is not good or bad, it
just is. There are no options, no turning back. As you say, the original
meaning for sin was estrangement from God, but sin has changed to mean bad
or against the will of God or not proper conduct, not doing the right thing.
Estrangement or birth or individuation is not bad, right? Not evil? After
all, God created human being, not God. And Eve being formed of Adam is
symbolic of man leaving his father and uniting with his wife to form one
flesh, or a union of like flesh. Who was Adam's father? Who should he leave
and who should he cling to, of like flesh?

>>The serpent could have been Buddhist and was just being true to the
>>meaning of serpent. You haven't heard a peep from serpents since, have
>>you?

>A buddhist interpretation would imply that the serpent did 
>not "tempt" Eve, merely engaged her in a philosophical
>exercise; "The text does not bear this out"(tm).

Hmm ... And what is the sound of a snake talking to a naked woman? Does not
snake say, "Worlds above, worlds below, no one in the world like me" and
yet the woman hears different? Or does she? She who is a listener to the
sounds of ... two hands clapping as one? When a TV preacher shouts Genesis3
on late night UHF, what do you hear? Isn't it just "Worlds above, worlds
below, no one in the world like me"? The mantra of Homo sapiens sapiens? You
say that "The text does not bear this out"(tm), but is it not the space
between words that define meaning? Is it better to have more words or more
space? If a tree falls yet makes no sound because there is no one to hear,
is it the tree that is lacking? If a snake and a naked proto-woman fail to
wax eloquently due to lack of practice ...

>> (3:22)...what if he should stretch out his hand and
>> take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!" 
 
>I thought A&E were already immortal. Since god gave them
>death as a parting gift for picking door number one instead
>of door number three (help I'm falling into harvey.speak!).
>
>If they were already immortal, what difference would eating
>from the tree of life make? And if they already were mortal,
>then maybe they got to choose between knowledge and immortality
>and didn't know it, AND that god would have preferred them
>to be immortal and ignorant - that is was the crafty serpent
>who changed things once and for all. . . .

I think they were already mortal, but did not know it. The clock was already
ticking, but they did not understand until eating the fruit. So, "else ye
will die" is only prophetic as are the rest of the parting words. And the
tree of life is a similar thing. We already have it, in a sense, but may
not know of it or perceive of it. We think immortality is living as a
human forever, but does that make sense? And so, what if we should take
also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever? And you said "The text
does not bear this out"(tm). What has happened to all these great gifts
and penalities? Only prophetic? Does it mean, "Hey stupid, wake up and see,
perceive what it means to be created as a human being!"? Only said in a more
Buddhist way? Ready for the student when the student is ready to learn. When
the student is ready, the teacher appears?