HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Sunday, 13 Dec 1992 15:51:28 MST
From: SEAN P. GARRETT <IDSPG@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bikes unwanted at U-Michigan
 <1992Dec10.174222.12715@waikato.ac.nz>

My appologies, I often forget that some readers take postings word for word
with a very active imagination. : )  The bike banning is on central campus only
 and i s from 8am-4:30pm.  The reason for this (given by officials) however
do not quote me, : ), is that to many riders attain a 'dangerous' speed for
saftey reasons.  This could be extended to that 'Liberty and Freedom' posting
that is also popular at the moment ; ). It however is not a total ban, you can
ride but if you get caught it will cost you 18 bucks.  The bike cops are very
popular here and the collegiate newspaper is often filled with complaints.
   I hope this clears things up for you.  When I posted originaly I considered
it a ban and reflecting still do.

Sean Garrett
From: eli@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Elihu Lubkin)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bikes unwanted at U-Michigan
Date: 15 Dec 1992 00:53:13 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

IDSPG@ASUACAD.BITNET (SEAN P. GARRETT) writes:
: The bike banning is on central campus only
:  and i s from 8am-4:30pm.  The reason for this (given by officials) however
: do not quote me, : ), is that to many riders attain a 'dangerous' speed for
: saftey reasons.  ..... It however is not a total ban, you can
: ride but if you get caught it will cost you 18 bucks.  The bike cops are very
: popular here and the collegiate newspaper is often filled with complaints.

           What about parking a bicycle on campus?
                      -------

                                Thelma Lubkin
: 
: Sean Garrett
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu (Gregory D. Surbeck)
Subject: mtn bike club at Univ of Md
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 02:18:48 GMT
Organization: Project GLUE, University of Maryland, College Park

	I want to form a mtn bike club at Md.  While the city of
College Park has a roadies club, there is little support for mtn.
bikers.  There are plenty of mtn. bikes around, and I would think some
of them would like to have a network with which they could address
grievances, socialize, and ride in groups.  But I need to write a
constitution over winter break for the SGA to consider my proposal.  I
wanted the net's wisdom and reaction to some of the things I have
thought about.  Also comments on what officers we should have, what
dues would be necessary, and any thought on those little by-laws are
welcome.
Thoughts:
	Require a helmet on all club-related rides
	Require a safety check by a local bike store
These help prevent any litigation because somebody was riding in an
unsafe manner.  Mtn biking is a dangerous sport and we can't afford
lawsuits.  Safe bikes and helmets help prevent injury.  Requiring some
sort of small safety check:  brakes work, derailleurs work, nothing
hanging off and ready to break, etc. would hopefully create some form
of bond between a local shop and the club.
	Trail maintenance
To build a better image of mtn. biking and gain guaranteed access to
trails
	Membership
Need: a bike, a helmet, an interest!
	Dues
I don't like the thought of charging since most people I know spent
everything they could afford on their bikes.  Any thoughts?
	Rides
What's a good size for recreational rides?  I have my thoughts on how
big groups should be, but I wanted other people's opinions.  If we
have a membership of 40 people, they (obviously?) can't all ride
together.  Any thoughts on how to avoid those problems?
	Competition
Which schools compete as teams in mtn biking?  I know WVU does.
	Cycling skills
I plan to contact LAW Monday since it will be a local call from my
house.  REI has bike maintenance courses, but who has bike handling
skills courses?
	Roadies
Should a bike club at the Univ of Md include roadies or would each
type of biking be better served by separate clubs?

Thanx for reading this far.  Any suggestions should be posted to this
newsgroup or sent to: gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu.  I appreciate any insight
into this matter.  For those of you in the Wash, DC area do you have
an interest?
		Sincerely,
			Greg Surbeck
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Monday, 14 Dec 1992 12:22:20 PST
From: <TOM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Bicycle built for 2-Side by Side?

About a month ago, I saw a bicycle built for two, in which the rider was
side by side on a single framed mountain bike.  The wheelbase looked like a
standard bike, not long like a tandem and the couple looked like they were
have a good time.  Does anyone have any information about this type of
bicycle?
                                           -tom
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: National Park Service Trail Closures
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: All
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:18:02 GMT

In article <BzFtJ9.9tz@well.sf.ca.us> trailrdr@well.sf.ca.us (Alan Goldman) writes:
>
>I have just learned that the Golden Gate National Recreation Area
>(Marin Headlands, near San Francisco California) has published it's
>trail plan in the Federal Register on December 10, 1992. This means
>that the restrictions on bicycle use of trails will go into effect
>on January 11, 1993.

>We have negotiated in good faith for years with the Park Service,
>and will continue to attempt to settle this issue without resorting
>to the legal system. They have, however, rejected all of our
>attempts to work out a compromise.
>
I helped in some of these meetings by showing up and giving support.
But it was evident to me from the very first that the needs and desires
of the bicyclists were not being ignored out of ignorance. The recommendations
that were submitted in the first place and the Park Service had
an agenda from the very first. They admitted in most of the meetings
that the biggest user group by far were the mountain bikers, and they
often implied that they were limiting bicycle access as a way of reducing
park usage.

If you want my opinion, the only way to handle this is a gigantic lawsuit
that will be so seriously expensive for the Park Service to settle that
they will have no other option but to respond to the park users instead
of the minority view that anyone actually using the parks is bad.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: ncherry@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (neil j.cherry)
Subject: Re: Politics of Cycling Speed
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:35:14 GMT

In article <71670@cup.portal.com> JForester@cup.portal.com (John - Forester) writes:
>
>   Neil J. Cherry asks whether I ride without fear on particular
>roads that both he and I know. Yes, Neil, I frequently ride El
>Camino, Mathilda, and Sunnyvale-Saratoga at any time of day or
>night, and often ride Maude, Middlefield, Arques, Lawrence, San
>Antonio, Foothill, Page Mill, and other main arterials, without a
>trace of fear. For that matter, I take my cycling classes out on
>El Camino at noon rush hour, to make about ten left turns in a
>row for practice. While I have not cycled in Neil's home state of
>New Jersey for forty years (I was in the Oranges and Bloomfield
>then), I have cycled much in the urban areas of Massachussetts
>(which you and I agree has the worst drivers in the U.S.),
>Virginia, Maryland, District of Columbia, Delaware, Pennsylvania.
>U.S. 1 before the freeway age was heavily overcrowded, probably
>more than today. I have cycled U.S. 50 between Dulles and
>Washington at morning and evening rush hours, and in and out on
>U.S. 1 in morning rush hour. My lack of fear comes from
>knowledge, not the drugs that Neil alleges. Neil, I don't take
>drugs, I drink only a little and when I do I neither drive nor
>ride. 
>

Well it looks like I got alot to learn then, I don't know if I would or would
not get in the left lane to cross El Camino, but I would still be nervous about
it. Any tips on how you go about doing it? (Books or maybe I should join a
riding club).

[P.S. I still think your on drugs. ;-} ]

NJC
From: apm@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (Andrew Merritt)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:25:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Ballantine on safety [Long]
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, CCSY Messaging Centre, UK.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc

"Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com> writes:
>You probably have more accurate numbers than I do, but it's my 
>understanding that cars kill about 40-50 thousand people in the US *per 
>year*
How many are on bicycles?
From: mvolo@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Michael R. Volow)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bicycle built for 2-Side by Side?
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:06:17 GMT
Organization: UNC Educational Computing Service

<TOM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:

>About a month ago, I saw a bicycle built for two, in which the rider was
>side by side on a single framed mountain bike.  The wheelbase looked like a
>standard bike, not long like a tandem and the couple looked like they were
>have a good time.  Does anyone have any information about this type of
>bicycle?
>                                           -tom
Although I don't remember its name, such a side-by-side was designed
and built during the late 1970s. A nearby shop (Life Cycles in 
Durham, NC) has an example, which they have never sold. Write me if
you want to contact them.
-- 
Michael Volow, Psychiatry, Durham VA Med Center, Durham NC 27712
919 286 0411 Ext 6933               mvolo@uncecs.edu
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: les@SAIL.Stanford.edu (Les Earnest)
Subject: Re: Bicycle accident statistics & recumbents
Reply-To: les@cs.stanford.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Dec13.152448.11745@afterlife.ncsc.mil>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:53:01 GMT

Gary E. Madine wrote:
   An interesting question.  I spoke with a cycling expert (though he does
   not claim to be a safety expert) and native of Holland who believed that
   for falls, helmets are necessary  only for pitchover (over the bar)
   falls.  He maintains that for all other pure falls, broken limbs,
   collarbones, fingers, and scrapes result.

I recommend against taking advice from "cycling experts" like this.
While pitchovers are more likely to plant you on your head than other
kinds of falls, there are lots of other ways to do it as I have
observed and learned from personal experience.

John Epstein responds:
   Having slid down a road at 26 miles per hour (American speed unit)
   on my side after hitting a dog, wearing a helmet.

Gee, if many dogs start wearing helmets, how can cyclists protect themselves?

   I suffered no roadrash to my head, i.e. I still have two ears.
   My head weighs about 18 pounds (American weight unit), your mileage
   may vary, the road rash was taken by the helmet. All other pressure
   points in contact with the road suffered varing degrees of road rash
   --- elbow worse as short sleeve bike shirt.  Amazingly enough lycra
   bike shorts did not abrade --- no road rash on hip.  HELMET, ankle,
   knee, glove, seat, handle bar tape, shoulder, and shirt abraded.

While it is true that a helmet may protect your head against road
rash, that is not its primary function and is not a valid reason for
wearing one -- after all, road rash usually heals rather quickly.

   Wear a helmet, save that 18 pound head!

More specifically, save the contents of that head -- *that* is the
reason for wearing a good helmet.  Damaged brains are not very good at
repairing themselves.

--
Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: pardo@cs.washington.edu (David Keppel)
Subject: Re: Bicycle built for 2-Side by Side?
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 04:26:25 GMT

>[I saw a photo of a side-by-side "tandem".  Know any more?]

Those bikes are called "sociables".  They have the obvious advantages
and the disadvantages that they cannot be ridden alone (to and from
picking somebody up), they are hard to ride because they "bottom out"
when they are leaned in turns, and weight balance is important.
Though each of these problems *can* be solved, most socialbes do not,
so be wary.

		;-D oN  ( The sociable animal )  Pardo
From: Howard.Gerber@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Howard Gerber)
Sender: Jpunix@urchin.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Politics of Cycling Speed
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:40:48 -0500

Neil J. Cherry <ncherry@cbnewsg.cb.att.com> writes:

 NJ> But now I have a question on left hand turns. I ride in alot of
areas where
 NJ> traffic zips by me at 40-50 miles an hour (posted limits are
35-45). On my
 NJ> bike the best I expect to do is 35 mph. If I'm in the slow lane or
shoulder
 NJ> (more likely I'm on the shoulder section) and I need to make a left
turn,
 NJ> how do I proceed to the left lane or left side of the lane? The
obvious is
 NJ> to wait for a break in the traffic. I find that this causes me to
come to a
 NJ> stop to wait for the break in the traffic. So what do I do? Stop
and wait
 NJ> or boldly jump in traffic?

 Neil, if you actually can ride at 35 mph, then you are only 5 - 15 mph
slower
 than the motorized traffic. You should be able to negotiate from the
right
 lane to the left lane with no problem, but you should not "boldly jump
in
 traffic." Negotiation means that you either look back and find a break
in
 traffic sufficient to change lanes or when you are looking back and
signaling,
 you are able to convince the motorists to slow down and let you change
lanes.
 If you cannot negotiate a lane change, then you must look back and
"wait for
 a break in the traffic."

 Notice that in each case I say to first "look back." This is no
accident!
 Putting your hand out to signal does not convey any magical properties
that
 suddenly make the cars go away. Often, just the act of turning your
head to
 look at the driver of the car behind you will be enough to convince
that
 driver to let you get into the next lane. You look back to make sure it
is
 either safe to move or it would be much safer to wait.
From: karen@athena.mit.edu (Karen E. Walrath)
Subject: Re: Recumbent Safety
Keywords: bicycle recumbent safety
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:12:11 GMT

In article <brady.724102192@lgc.com> brady@lgc.com (W. Brady Reed) writes:
>
>I recently purchased a recumbent bicycle because they offered comfort
>without sacrificing speed.  Doing research into the area, I was surprised
>to find out that recumbent bicycles were reborn in the late 60's (I think)
>because of research done for a safer bicycle.  
>
>I am a little foggy, but I think the story went like this:  Some guy at
>MIT had friends that had been killed by over-the-handlebar accidents.  He
>developed a bike that made this scenio less likely.  I believe this guy
>went on to market the Avatar recumbent bicycle.
>

His name was Prof. David Wilson.  He is still at MIT and I had a talk
with him before I bought a recumbent.  The Avatar eventually evolved into
the Ryan Recumbent.

[stuff deleted]

>
>Cars seems to always give me a wide distance when passing.  I think this
>is because of the novelty of my bike.  Now that I have about 800 miles of
>mostly commuting in Houston traffic, I feel that motorists see me at least
>as well as any bicyclist.  I also feel safer being lower to the ground.

I agree.  Cars certainly stay farther away.  Possibly because the bike is 
different, it catches their attention.

Even more amazing... My husband and I took our bikes to PEI for a
week.  If I was riding my bike (upright) and stopped by the road, the
cows would ignore me.  When my husband would stop (he was riding the 
recumbent), they would come over to take a look.

> 
>I took a little spin on my old diamond frame bike last weekend and felt that 
>I was walking on stilts, the bike seemed so high off the ground.  
> 
>I ride a Rans Stratus B, with a 67 inch wheelbase and upright handlebars.  
> 
>Brady 
>
I agree.  When I switch between the recumbent and the upright, I realize
that the position on the recumbent is a much more "natural" feeling position.

Karen Walrath
MIT
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: ezag637@chpc.utexas.edu (Steve Manifold)
Subject: Re: Politics of Cycling Speed
Organization: The University of Texas System CHPC
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 21:56:22 GMT

In article <1gjda2INN438@agate.berkeley.edu>, annie@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anne Jessop) writes:
> 
> 
> Hello!
> I have been following this thread silently so far, and now I just want to 
> throw my own little bit in.  First of all, John Forrester hasn't convinced
> me of anything so far but that he is indeed the most macho, fearless
> cyclist in the world. [:) :)]
  
This is a sexist statement.  What does being a man have to do with his argument?> 
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
Steve Manifold                                              University of Texas 
ezag637@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu                      Center for Electromechanics
tasc637@crovax.cem.utexas.edu                          "Visualize Dead Lawyers"
From: annie@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anne Jessop)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Politics of Cycling Speed
Date: 15 Dec 92 01:44:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu
Originator: annie@garnet.berkeley.edu



Hello!
I have been following this thread silently so far, and now I just want to 
throw my own little bit in.  First of all, John Forrester hasn't convinced
me of anything so far but that he is indeed the most macho, fearless
cyclist in the world. [:) :)]
More seiously, I would like to agree with some of the things that Neil
Cherry and others have been saying.  There is such a thing as a "healthy"
amount of fear, which I think all responsible cyclists have, whether they
actually call it that or not.  It seems to me that what keeps us alert is
a healthy apprehension (fear, perhaps) of what will happen to us if we
don't.  I have always been a "defensive" rider, and act similarly to when
I drive.  This means that I watch what's going on all around me.  If
someone looks like they're running a stop sign (a common thing here in
Berkeley, where drivers almost never stop where they're supposed to.  They
keep rolling until they're well past the corner of the curb, and to me,
sometimes this looks like they don't intend to stop) then I'm aware of it
and I try and make eye contact thru their windshield, try and figure out
if they do intend to stop.  (Sorry if my prose is running away here. I've
been writing all day and don't intend to proofread this too carefully.)

The one time I was hit by a car (not counting a door that was thrown open.
 Now I watch more actively for that, too!)  it was a guy who came up from
behind me on Telegraph Ave, suddenly saw a parking space he wanted and
swerved over, into me.  No signal, from what witnessess told me.  I
couldn't have seen a signal if it had been on, because he took me out from
the side.  My point here is that he did not look.  He came up from behind
me, hsould have seen me (even without actively looking) and when he saw
the parking space he just turned the wheel without looking to see if
anyone was there.  (He was very hostile too, but that's another story.) 
ANyway, the real point is that I no longer trust that I am going to be
seen, even when it seems like a driver can't help _but_ see me.  I still
ride fast, but now I feel that I am more "aggressively" defensive.  This
is because I don't want to be hit again.  It would be accurate (sort of)
to say that I am "afraid" of being hit again, and therefore am taking as
many precautions as _I_ can to make sure it doesn't happen.  This is not a
debilitating fear at all.  
Anyway, I feel like I've been rambling here.  Sorry about that, thanks for
bearing with it.  It seems to me that "fear" is perhaps the wrong word to
describe what Neil and others are talking about.  "Apprehension,"
"recognition," "awareness," --I don't know.  Everybody has a different
idea of what fear is and what its usefulness is as a motive.  As long as
its not "fear and trembling" -- then you'd fall off your bicycle without
even being hit!
(okay. I know that was lame.)
Bye,
Annie
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Ballantine on safety [Long]
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:52:43 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)

>DATE:   11 Dec 92 17:55:38 GMT
>FROM:   Robert Lewis <rlewis@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca>
[material deleted]
>In fact the whole tactic of describing the roads as killing grounds by
>those purportedly promoting pedal power is truely bizarre.
[....]
>I guess it allows them to see themselves as brave
>eco-warriors in the great crusade against the automobile but is clearly
>doesn't do anything to promote cycling.

Heap Big Eco-Warrior responds:

You probably have more accurate numbers than I do, but it's my 
understanding that cars kill about 40-50 thousand people in the US *per 
year* -- the same rather capacious ballpark as the number of US soldiers  
killed in the whole Vietnam war. If this isn't a killing ground, what is?

I'm very much in favor of promoting cycling, but I can't believe that 
concealing the facts forms any part of an appropriate strategy for doing 
so. 

As for "crusading against the automobile" -- there I'm guilty as 
charged, and quite unrepentant. The hegemony of the car in North 
American society is a terribly destructive thing. Ecrasez l'infame!

--Michael Smith
From: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: T junction quandrary
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 13:02:42 EST(-0500)
Organization: Accuracy, Ltd.
Reply-To: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v0

Ken Whelan <mctkew@dct.ac.uk> writes:
> The problem is that traffic can turn both left AND right in this middle lane

When I was riding in Philadelphia I contended with a similar situation just
behind the Philadelphia Art Museum.  Two busy 3-lane one-way roads merge into a
single 6-lane road, which then splits only a couple of hundred yards later,
with two lanes going right, three left, and one splitting.  (I may have the
exact numbers wrong but the idea is the important thing.)  Traffic only enters
from one road at a time due to traffic signals, but a high proportion of that
traffic wants to cross to the other side before the split -- as did I.  I found
it necessary to place myself in the correct lane before the signal so that I
could move into the splitting lane directly.  Even that was of marginal value
because a high percentage of the cars ignored the lanes entirely in their rush
to move across.  I had to place myself firmly in the middle of that lane, for
cars with empty lanes beside them would still try to push me out of the lane
given a quarter of a chance.  And the drivers would act annoyed because they
had to go to the trouble to move into an empty adjacent lane.

I never did find a really good strategy.  Eventually I modified my route to
avoid that intersection.

Edward Reid  (8*}>
  eel:   ed@titipu.resun.com  or  nosc.mil!titipu.resun.com!ed
  snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc