From: kwoods@eutopia.dell.com (Katherine Woods @ eutopia.dell.com)
Subject: Re: The question of Experience
Keywords: college job entry cs sysadm
Organization: Dell Computer Corporation
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:15:34 GMT



  I have to say "Bravo!" to this answer. Aquiring a degree not only speaks for
your education, but also you ability to apply yourself to a wide range of
subjects and your ability to see a task through to the end. If you were
financially unable to complete your education, that would be understandable; 
but to give up because you can't interest yourself in topics other than
computer science is a mistake. I also quit college at 19 because I wanted
to work "in the real world" only to find out how much better off that little 
piece of paper could make my life. I went back to school at 23 and worked
three jobs to say there, finally graduating at 28. I find that as I continue
to grow older, my interests changd and I now have a good background of
understanding to think about future career changes. 

  Don't let yourself off the hook so easily. I think that in time, and you will
have lots of time ahead, you will be glad you stayed in school. I know many
people my age whose only regret is that they did not finish college, and the
older you get the harder is is to go back. You should not just be concerned
with how college will effect your career path, but your life in general. You
only work aprox. one third of your day. Meeting people, developing interests
and rounding your personality will help with the other times.

  I don't work for a college, I would just like to share some of my own "life
experience".

K. Woods

In article <3856@isgtec.isgtec.com>, mike@isgtec.com (Mike Sellers) writes:
|> pmueller@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (The Highlander) writes:
|> >     I'll start off right away by asking my question.  Can someone like me
|> > get a job without a college degree, but with little corporate experience?
|> 
|> The short answer: Yes, but no.  Yes you can get a job, but no, you probably
|> won't be able to find the kind you want, at least not without a lot more
|> corporate experience.  Thus, you'll probably find that you spend as much 
|> time in "junk" jobs acquiring that experience as you would in college.
|> In general, college is a much better investment.  
|> 
|> Of course, we're talking probabilities here.  You may be that one-in-a-
|> million who overcomes difficult obstacles by virtue of your brilliance,
|> but then there are a lot of other brilliant folks already out there.
|> 
|> >     Here's my situation:  I'm 18, and In the last 8 years have self-taught
|> > myself computers and programming.  This includeds UNIX, C, C++, Pascal, 
|> > REXX, Objective-C, as well as many popular applications such as LOTUS
|> > 1-2-3, dBase, Informix, Word, Mathematica, and others.  
|> 
|> Of course, as a potential employer, I can find many others with the same
|> qualifications but who also have a solid undergraduate (or graduate) degree.
|> I'm not saying what you list is not impressive, but "experience" starting
|> at age 10 counts for little in my book.
|> 
|> > However, when
|> > it comes to schooling, I'm not that talented.  My talents are limited to 
|> > computers and writing.  
|> 
|> This, I think, may be an unsurmountable obstacle.  The days when you could
|> get by on only computer talent are largely gone.  Today, if you don't have
|> good interpersonal skills, the ability to discuss and write about a variety
|> of subjects, and the ability to discuss and understand completely non-technical
|> subjects, you won't be hired for any desirable position.  Again, there are 
|> just too many others out there who *have* these talents, and the stakes are
|> too high to risk on a more narrowly defined person.  In addition, while a 
|> college degree may seem silly in some cases, nearly any degree shows that 
|> the holder is able to finish what they start, and that they are able to do 
|> more than just one thing.  
|> 
|> I don't mean to be brutal here, just honest.  It's my hope that if you 
|> hear some solid advice here, you'll avoid lengthy and costly mistakes.  
|> 
|> > [...] I initially chose to go to college, finguring that here I would learn
|> > all i need to know about computers and programming.  I chose a respectable 
|> > school (U of I, Urbana-Champaign) and enrolled.
|> > 
|> >     Well, to my shock, most of the computer teachings I already knew, 
|> > the problem lies in that the subjects I didn't know I wasn't any good at 
|> > anyway.  (I have no grasp for Optics for example)  Thus, I soon discovered 
|> > my grades dropping low.
|> 
|> If you're 18, you couldn't have been going to college for too long, true?
|> Also, if you what you say is true about the computer knowledge, your grades
|> in those subjects should have been at least adequate, if not stellar.  If
|> this is not the case, you need to take a long, hard look at yourself and see
|> if there are other things going on.  Finally, why worry about advanced math
|> or optics?  Such are not necessary for a degree; that is, you can get a
|> perfectly fine degree without going through such hoops.  In many ways, I'd
|> rather hire someone who has a wide base of different classes and an _adequate_
|> focus in their major, than I would someone who took every class in their
|> major's department and few others.  If you can master Unix and C++, you 
|> _can_ get through a few history or art or geography or philosophy classes.
|> _No one_ is so narrow in their talents that this is untrue for them.  
|> At least, no one that I'm going to think about hiring is -- if this were
|> true for someone, then due to this narrowness I wouldn't be able to count 
|> on their ability to cope with new situations which _will_ come up.  
|> 
|> >     So, here I am stuck with failing grades, and little hope of staying in
|> > college.  I will admit that part of my problem is a priority conflict.  I
|> > hold a paying job over my education.  And it is true also that I tend to 
|> > spend too much time on the computer, teaching myself, when I should be 
|> > studying Philosophy, or Physics.  Yet, this is me, and I can't change that.
|> 
|> If it's true that you can't change that, then don't whine about not being
|> able to get the job you want.  You can change nearly anything about yourself
|> if it is important enough to you, but you have to be willing to take 
|> responsibility for the choices you make.  As you say, it is a question 
|> of priorities.  I too worked my way through college, doing a tough 
|> self-designed major (cognitive science) while working 20 hours per week
|> and having a wife and two kids at home.  It can be done, and is *ABSOLUTELY*
|> worth the investment.
|> --
|>               Mike Sellers      User Interface Team Leader
|>            mike@isgtec.com      ISG Technologies, Toronto, Canada
|>               "Actum ne agas" -- Do not do what has been done.
|>                          Furare tantum ab Optimis
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