From: callum@bain3.bain.oz.au (Callum Gibson)
Subject: Re: Creation & Evolution - the great side issue.
Organization: Bain & Company, Sydney, AUSTRALIA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 23:28:06 GMT

Greg Restall (gar@cltr.uq.oz.au) wrote:
> God said to Adam and Eve that the day they ate of the 
> fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they
> would surely die.  Now Genesis tells us that they lived
> a great number of years since that time.  So I must conclude
> that the death that is talked about in this passage is not
> physical death, but something else.  This, at least, *must*
> be figurative in the book.  Otherwise it is simply mistaken.
> Adam and Eve died that day, in the same way that all humanity
> is dead in sin.  The Genesis account is correct.  However, 
> Adam and Eve did not *physically* die on the day they ate.
> So I can't agree with you that physical death is what is 
> in view in this passage.  

That passage wasn't what I was thinking of actually.  More that God created
them perfect and the vegetarian bit I guess.  Yes, this could be just reading
it too literally.  FYI, the vegetarian bit is in Gen 9:1-4 mainly.  Also
Gen 2 makes mention of plants for food but not animals.

> Why believe fallible scientists?  Because they are using
> their divinely created faculty of reason, and as far as
> I check these things, a lot of their reasoning seems pretty
> sensible.  Of course, when they resort to over-the-top 
> claims like "now that we have this theory, we have no need
> to say that God did it" I can see that their reasoning is
> crazy, and I won't go along with that.  But that's not 
> science.  That's scientism: the belief that once we have
> a scientific explanation for something, it's the only 
> explanation that counts.  This view is simply crazy, and
> it is our real opponent, IMHO.

I agree.  If CSF are engaged in scientism then they are just as much our
opponent as anyone.

> If the CSF holds that a true scientific description of the process
> of creation that doesn't mention God is actually enough to show
> that God didn't create the world, then I must (respectfully) say that
> this is dangerously close to heresy.  Here's why.  Presumably the 

I would hope that isn't the case and I don't think they explicitly say that.
It would be unlikely if not impossible for science to take observations and
automatically insert God into the picture if they don't believe in God.  I
don't expect them to, I do expect that they won't manipulate data to fit
their expectations as the CSF accuses them (and as they counter-claim against
the CSF).

> If there is a naturalistic account of the entire history of 
> creation, that makes no mention of God, it will no more rule
> out God's activity in creation than the account of the weather 
> rules out God's activity in sending rain.

As long as it agrees with the Genesis account?  Or even if it doesn't?

> If I sound like I'm repeating myself, I'm sorry.  It's just
> that this point is a very important one for anyone who takes
> issues of science seriously. 

Agreed.  Look how much traffic this thread has produced.

> A last point is this.  Evolution (narrowly defined, as the scientific
> theory) is a description of the history of the world.  It is *not*
> the view that the world got like it is of it's own accord.  Whether
> or not there was a God driving a process is independent of whatever
> scientific theory you use to describe the process.  The attitudes
> of modern society are because of our alienation from God, not
> God, not because of the scientific theories we hold to.  

Perhaps that is where the CSF are most mistaken?  One of the key points of
their message is that evolution is damaging to our thinking because it
subtlely (sp?) allows basic tenets of Christianity to be discarded.  That,
as opposed to scientific issues, is the one that most concerns me.

regards,
    Callum (still looking for the truth in all this)
-- 
Callum Gibson                           callum@bain3.bain.oz.au
Eyeball Temporary Analyst/Programmer    BH : +61 2 258 1620
Fixed Income Division                   Fax: +61 2 258 1128
Bain & CO, Sydney, Australia.           AH : :-)
Newsgroups: aus.religion