HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:42:24 GMT

puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:

>barbaraj@csc.ti.com (Heart Dancer) writes:
>
>>Some of you may say that because I was able to stop drinking on my
>>own, gradually, and because I can drink an occasional drink without
>>going on a bender, that I'm not an alcoholic, but I think you would
>>have thought differently if you had been hanging out with me 10-12
>>years ago.
>
>O Heart Dancer,
>  ..that is one of the reasons why _we_ are careful never to call
>another person alcoholic!

Well, I wonder what would happen if I went to an AA meeting and stood
up and said, "Hi, my name is Richard, I have a moderate drinking
problem but I'm not an alcoholic."  Possibly in *your* group this
statement wouldn't raise any eyebrows, and there would be no
pressures, spoken or unspoken, subtle or unsubtle, on me to label
myself as an alcoholic, but I think that such a group would be
unusual.

This brings up another way in which the AA program sometimes does
harm.  When one accepts a self-definition as an "alcoholic", as AA
tradition requires, one then undergoes changes in identity that often
aggravate and perpetuate the problem drinking.  In addition, persons
labeled as alcoholics are often regarded (by themselves and others) as
outcasts from society, and they bear the stigma of having a permanent
handicap.

>	On Page 21 of the Big Book, it says:
>
>	"a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough 
>	to gradually impair him physically and mentally. It may cause him
>	to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason
>	- ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning
>	of a doctor- becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, 
>	although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need 
>	medical attention.
>		But what about the real alcoholic?"
>
>	If a person _can_ quit, then, at least by the definition of
>the Big Book, he _isn't_ an alcoholic. 

This is AA-speak, Jim.  Hardly anybody today would define "alcoholic"
in such a restrictive way.  It would mean, for example, that a person
who had developed a physical dependency on alcohol could not be
considered an alcoholic if he managed to quit on his own.

In any case, how we define "alcoholism" is immaterial to Heart
Dancer's point.  I understood her to say that she repetitively drank
in such as way as to cause physical, psychological or social harm to
herself or others, and that she learned to moderate and control her
drinking without entering a formal treatment program.  I wonder how
things would have turned out if she had attended AA meetings and was
talked into believing that she had an incurable disease, that she was
powerless over alcohol, that the AA program was the only way to
control the disease, and that she had to abstain from alcohol for the
rest of her life.

Richard Carnes
From: Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Aug 21 1992
Date: 11 Sep 92  08:54:24

In a message of <Sep 09 08:28>, David A. Butterfield (1:103/208) writes: 
 >"It is a poor workman who blames his tools."

The Twelve Steps are the tools.  

Why do I get the impression that you are blaming them for the failure of some 
people to gain sobriety by using them?

--- Mark Perew  Mark.Perew@ofa123.fidonet.org
--- Mark's Information Repository and Funtime Emporium (1:103/208.201)


--- Squish v1.00
From: dab@ism.isc.com (David A. Butterfield)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 11 Sep 1992 01:52:25 GMT
Organization: x
NNTP-Posting-Host: change

mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera) writes:
>If someone doesn't get it, I can't say why. I can only guess why *I*
>wouldn't get it. It seems reasonable to assume that the person wasn't
>ready for our program.

The purpose of the program is to help people who are addicted to
alcohol.  The program has a set of means and techniques it uses to
try to achieve that purpose.  For whatever reason, those means and
techniques do not work when applied to some people.  To this extent,
the program is deficient.  In order to help those people, the
program must become more flexible.  It is the program that is not
prepared for those people, not the other way around.

For those people for whom the program works, that's great.  But
let's not fool ourselves into thinking that the people it fails
for don't deserve to be helped.  Let's instead improve and diversify
our means and techniques for helping people so that those improved
methods can help a greater percentage of people who need it.

Dave
-- 
                     Vote for *anybody* but Quayle!
From: weiss872@CLEARWATER.CS.UIDAHO.EDU (Phil Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Amends revisited
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:30:40 GMT

Robert Yaeger wrote:
> I too wondered why it says that if I have a resentment then I need to make
> amends.  I came to this conclusion; that when I have resentments I tend to
> act it out. either in passive aggression, or verbal abuse or something.
> Hence my need for amends.

Jim Puckett responded:
> I think it works this way..
> 
> 
> If I have a resentment, then I 
> 	A. Feel shitty
> 	B. Am cut off from the Sunlight of the Spirit, and the insanity 
> 	of alcohol will return, and I will drink again, and die.
> 

Big Book talks about our real purpose being to make ourselves useful
to God and our fellows.  How can I help someone if I have a resentment
against them?

On top of that, I am a hell of a lot less likely to be able to
help people besides the resentee.  My mind is occupied with my
resentment even when I'm not dealing with the person I resent.

Phil.
From: Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: RE: BooHoo BooHoo Waaagh!!
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Aug 21 1992
Date: 10 Sep 92  13:17:46

In a message of <Sep 08 09:26>, James Jerpseth (jerpseth@sd.cadence.com)
writes:

 >                            I think about babys playing on the
 >freeway, you don't reason with them. You just run out into the
 >freeway, grab them, carry them to safety and then talk to them.

 >                                              If I can grab them
 >up off the road and take them to a place of safety, I will.

Do you know the meaning of the term "Co-Dependant"?

Did you know that people have to want to come off the freeway before they can 
be helped?

--- Mark Perew  Mark.Perew@ofa123.fidonet.org
--- Mark's Information Repository and Funtime Emporium (1:103/208.201)


--- Squish v1.00
Nf-ID: #R:<1867f2INN9kd@grapevine.EBay.Sun:-37:trsvax:1227267298:000:35
Nf-From: trsvax.tandy.com!kasey    Sep  8 09:33:00 1992


Congrats Debra! Any helpful hints?
From: tyau7@isuvax.iastate.edu (C. Marie Riggins)
Subject: A good laugh
Reply-To: tyau7@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:49:45 GMT

Seeing as I can't get Jims latest post (4962) on my system for a re-cap,
you'll have to go backwards to see what I'm talking about.
Thanks Jim, for a good laugh.  In the midst of Alg, Trig, Chem, West. Civ
and Engl, a good laugh is a neccesity.
Thanks (and now back to our regularly scheduled studying).
Marie :)
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
* C. Marie Riggins                     | "What's homework?"                   *
| TYAU7@isuvax.iastate.edu             * -often credited to the first college |
* TY.AU7@isumvs.iastate.edu            |  student.                            *
| cmriggin@iastate.edu                 * ISU and I _DO NOT_ share opinions.   |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!!
Date: 8 Sep 1992 13:13:46 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

sher@umbc4.umbc.edu (Sherri Crain) writes:

> Sometimes whining is a part of the process of recovery.  It may annoy
> some of us,but let me ask you this,"haven't you ever been annoyed by
> something someone shared at a meeting?"  

You are right to stick up for those who wish to whine. There is a
balance. I knew that if I added to the complaint that there would be an
exchange and eventually a balance would be struck between whining and
flat analysis. Just so long as everyone is aware of it, I am happy. 

When I first came to the program my brain was like cream cheese in the
hot sun. I couldn't rub two thoughts together. I would ramble and whine
and became an opportunity for others to practice love and tolerance.
:-) Nevertheless, I was always given five minutes to say whatever I
wanted to say no matter what. I still remember that and I do my utmost
to grant that to everyone. Even so, if I judge that someone is going on
too long, I will stop them.

I wouldn't have even brought it up, but since someone else said it I
piped in. I don't think anyone has been out of line lately (in my
judgement) but I do skip long postings that lack focus.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah


Newsgroups: alt.recovery,talk.politics.drugs
From: rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov (Bob Boyd)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Abstinence (was: easier?)
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:53:57 GMT
Organization: UNISYS/Environmental Protection Agency

I see this being more of an issue of what is the underlying problem --
why is it that a person acts out in a particular addiction?

There are several approaches to this problem that seem to be making
a lot of headway.  Some of the people working in the field of addiction
and recovery have some very specific and very clear ideas about 
addictions really being secondary issues -- the primary issues have
much to do with systematic patterns set up by unresolved childhood
trauma.  Some of the people that I have a lot of respect for who
have published works out there are Albert Pesso, Patrick Carnes,
and Jacqueline Damgaard.  There are others that I could mention --
these are some of the people that I see having a real clear picture
of what is going on with people in addiction.

One of the challenges of recovery and treatment is that while a person
is active in an addiction, the addictive process itself will continue
to hide the unresolved stuff from the addict's awareness.  So it is
important to define some sort of "abstinence" from the addictive
process and to work toward a time when the person will be present
in the here & now for long enough to start dealing with the stuff
that they've been covering up.  This means building a support system
of internal and external resources to create some space where the
person learns that they can cope with their feelings without resorting
to the addiction every time.  If they become willing to risk stretching
a little they begin to find that there are other ways of coping and 
begin the journey of opening up to a healing process.

--

Bob Boyd
In The Here & Now
(most of the time :-) 
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: lisa lynne davidson <lldavids@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: "I've spilled more than you drank"
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 15:28:55 GMT

Whenever someone who is older tells my boyfriend that, he laughs at them
and tells them that maybe if they hadn't spilled so much they would have
gotten here sooner.
Newsgroups: la.general
From: brihut@pro-palmtree.socal.com (Brian Hutchings)
Subject: Re: Which is the City of Worst Smog and Pollution?...
Organization: The Palmtree BBS - 310/453-8726 - Santa Monica, CA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 07:31:54 GMT

really; do you recall the recently-reported record-levels
of ozone in Mexico City?...  well,
the first couple of items in, e.g., the LATimes said that
they were barely comparable to levels that'd occurred in LA
in the'70s.  what wasn't mentioned, any where, is that
the AQMD (EPA etc.) measure of O3 apparently also includes lots
of other reactive stuff that just isn't O3; also,
O3 is used therapeutically in, e.g., Europe & Mexico, as a form
of activated oxygen (ozone is really mostly O3, but
it can be all the way up to O21 .-)
 
Newsgroups: la.general
From: foucault@netcom.com (Howard Arthur Faye)
Subject: Re: No snooker tables in LA?
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 02:28:03 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: la

In article <195q9vINNlfg@skat.usc.edu> melton@skat.usc.edu (Mike Melton) writes:
>Does anyone out there play snooker? If so, do you know of
>any place that has a table? I live in Manhattan Beach, and
>I really haven't found any place close that even has a nice
>pool table, let alone a snooker table. I greatly appreciate
>any information.
>

I'd call the 'George V' on Wilshire in Santa Monica. Many Brit ex-pats
hang there, so perhaps they have a snooker table.


-- 
Howard Arthur Faye * Panglossian Acres * Box 7 * Littlerock, CA   93543
                         Fax: 805.944.5958

Don't "follow your bliss." If you "follow your bliss," you will either
collide with someone else's bliss or you will fall into a deep hole.

				-from 'The Anti-Campbell'
Newsgroups: la.general
From: brihut@pro-palmtree.socal.com (Brian Hutchings)
Subject: Re: Which is the City of Worst Smog and Pollution / O3
Organization: The Palmtree BBS - 310/453-8726 - Santa Monica, CA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:42:23 GMT

O3 is used therapeutically as a form of "activated" oxygen;
it's used to purify water in, e.g., Moscow, and
to purify air, indoors.
Newsgroups: la.general,ca.general
From: dhosek@hmcvax.claremont.edu
Subject: Re: LA metro
Organization: Harvey Mudd College
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:08:19 PDT

In article <101.UUL1.3#1@vortex.COM>, lauren@vortex.COM (Lauren Weinstein) writes:
> Greetings.  I have to agree with those who feel that the L.A. Metro
> is most likely to be a financial and ridership disaster.  The 30%
> displacement projections are hogwash.  Traffic patterns in L.A.
> are not centered around "downtown" but are spread throughout a vast
> area.  Only a tiny portion of drivers would even be in a situation
> where the metro *could* be useful to them, assuming they wanted to 
> ride it.

The centering on downtown is certainly a problem, but a good
public transportation system that mirrored the existing freeway
network would do wonders. Personally, a very small fraction of my
driving takes place on surface streets.

> Odds are that the effect of the metro on regular vehicular traffic will
> be essentially zero, if not negative (how could it be negative?  I'll
> leave that as a thought experiment for the readership for now).
 
> The metro is being built purely on political grounds, since it
> is politically "correct" to "try get people out of their cars," even
> if the metro doesn't go anywhere they need to go!

So the problem is to get the metro to go where it's useful.
Getting people out of there cars is more than a point of
political correctness: At current usage rates, known oil reserves
will last us maybe 100 years or so. This includes oil reserves in
protected areas. 

Public transportation isn't the only piece in the puzzle. We also
need to promote alternative fuels, improve milage on gas-burning
cars (could somebody please explain Little Geo's assertion that
increasing milage standards would put auto workers out of a
job?), encourage telecommuting, etc.


A bit muddled, but it's late.

-dh


Newsgroups: la.general
From: mikefitz@beach.csulb.edu (Mike Fitzpatrick)
Subject: FREE!!
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
Distribution: la
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:08:42 GMT


I have two Dodger tickets for tonight's game against the Padres that I won't
be able to use.  Anyone who wants them is welcome to them.  I will be on campus
until 5:00 or so.  Even though the Dodgers suck the seats are excellent and the
Padres are in second place right now with only a month left to play.  Go root for
the Padres if you are tired of watching error after error committed by the Dodgers
and seeing Lasorda pull out the last few hairs on his head.

The campus is Long Beach State.  If you are around this area or want to drive a
bit they are yours.


Mike
Newsgroups: la.general
Subject: Re: Which is the City of Worst Smog and Pollution / O3
From: karl@ttank.ttank.com (Karl Bunch)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 20:37:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Think Tank Software, Norwalk, CA

In <1992Sep11.024223.50@pro-palmtree.socal.com> brihut@pro-palmtree.socal.com (Brian Hutchings) writes:

>O3 is used therapeutically as a form of "activated" oxygen;
>it's used to purify water in, e.g., Moscow, and
>to purify air, indoors.

Then why does my Laser Printer manual suggest changing the "Ozone" filter
regularly and to "avoid direct inhalation" of the "Ozone" produced by the
Laser Printer?  I found this very disturbing as I use it in a small 10x10
room with doors closed and it's 3 feet from my face and under the intake
to my room air-conditioner.  Hasn't killed me yet but, this does concern
me.

"What me worry?" ;-)

Karl
-- 
% ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
% Karl Bunch                        ||| UUCP: ..!uunet!cerritos.edu!ttank!karl
% Think Tank Software               ||| INTERNET: karl@ttank.com
% 42.5% of all quoted statistics are made up, of those 23.185% are right. :-)
Newsgroups: la.general
From: scoter@ntmtv.UUCP (Patrick Thompson)
Subject: Shri Mataji to visit Los Angeles
Originator: scoter@nmtvs12
Keywords: Sahaja Yoga, Meditation, Kundalini, Self-realization, Safe, Free
Reply-To: scoter@ntmtv.UUCP (Patrick Thompson)
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:11:12 GMT


Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, founder of Sahaja Yoga, will visit
Los Angeles on Friday, September 16th to give a free lecture on 
self-realization and the "Sahaja Yoga experience."

Her itinerary on this, her first tour of North America since
April 1991, includes visits to New York, Cincinnati, Toronto, 
Vancouver, Seattle, and Los Angeles.

Shri Mataji believes that world peace and collective consciousness 
can be achieved only through the inner transformation of human 
beings. Her system of meditation, Sahaja Yoga, manifests a subtle 
energy. This is experienced as vibrations which are felt on the 
central nervous system and lead to greater awareness and deeper 
intuition. Rather than requiring a "leap of faith," it is an actual 
experience of the integration of our physical, mental, emotional, 
and spiritual being. It thus brings about complete balance and inner 
peace. By bringing together people of all religious, ethnic, and 
social backgrounds, she has proven that the human bond is more than 
skin deep and that all ideologies are encompassed by the same 
universal values and truths.


		=======================================
		Los Angeles Public Program
		Wednesday, September 16th, 7 pm.
		Ebell of Los Angeles Theatre
		743 South Lucerne Blvd. (at Wilshire)
		Info: (818) 344-9642
		Free of charge
		=======================================



For more information about this upcoming program or Sahaja Yoga 
in general, call the local information number given above or 
1-800-745-YOGA.




------------------------------
Patrick Thompson
ntmtv!scoter@ames.arc.nasa.gov

Xref: sparky la.general:689 oc.general:81 ca.general:1258 alt.drugs:15844 rec.music.gdead:16636
From: mrichey@mothra.nts.uci.edu (Mike Richey)
Subject: Hemp Seed Pancake Breakfast / Hemp Harvest Celebration
Newsgroups: la.general,oc.general,ca.general,alt.drugs,rec.music.gdead
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 16 Sep 92 03:30:33 GMT
Distribution: ca

For those interested (flames => dev/nul):

The American Hemp Council and the Business Alliance for Commerce in
Hemp present:
(Typed in from a notice I came across.)
           
A hemp seed pancake breakfast / festival

When:       Sunday, September 27, 10:00am - 6:00pm
Where:      Westwood Federal Building, 11000 Wilshire Blvd., L.A.
Music by:   Cubensis, Mr. Ectomy, Joint Chiefs and Inner Secrets
Cost:       Pancake Breakfast  Children $ 2.50, Adults $ 5.00
            Music will start around Noon. No charge for the festival.
            You don't have to buy breakfast to enter the festival.
            Raffle tickets are $ 1.00. 

Free literature available. Speakers, live music, fashion show, herbal
remedies and other such sport.

The cannabis hemp seed pancakes have a delicious light flavor. This
great tasting family recipe calls for freshly ground hemp seeds, whole
wheat flour and yogurt. Hemp seeds contain all the essential amino
acids and are the richest vegetable source for the essential fatty
acids necessary to maintain healthy human life. No other single plant
source provides complete protein in such an easily digestable form,
nor has the oils essential to life in as perfect ratio for human
health and vitality.

(From a notice I came across printed on - dead trees processed with
toxic cemicals - versus hemp paper - due to short-sighted prohibition
laws.)

for more information: (310) 288-4152
Newsgroups: la.general
From: michael@stb.info.com (Michael Gersten)
Subject: Did anyone tape "Fool of the world" part 2?
Organization: Serial Tree BBS, +1 310 319 3778
Distribution: la
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:27:07 GMT

Did anyone tape "Fool of the world" this last weekend on KCET? I thought
that I had, only to discover that I taped over it.

If so, give me a call please. 310 319 3778

		Michael
-- 
		Michael Gersten		michael@stb.info.com
HELLO! I'm a signature virus! Join in the fun and copy me into yours!
ex:.-1,. w $HOME/.signature
From: gupta@babbage.seas.ucla.edu (Ashish Gupta)
Newsgroups: la.general
Subject: Summary of LA area bookstores wanted.
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:38:37 GMT
Distribution: la
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles

A few months ago, there was a discussion on LA area bookstores... which
ones people liked.  I seem to have lost all that info, if anybody has kept
it, and could e-mail it to me, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks.
Ashish.

-- 

If all the world were a stage, I'd sit and watch.

Newsgroups: la.general
From: jumper@spf.trw.com (Greg Jumper)
Subject: Re: LA's Jobless.  Solutions needed!
Organization: TRW Sensor Data Processing Center, Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 15:07:21 GMT

In article <m+tnlr.frost@netcom.com> frost@netcom.com (John Frost) writes:

     So what I want to try and generate is a conversation that will
     create a list of ideas that chronicle suggestions on how to rebuild
     the economy in southern California.

I suggest that people use their power as voters to stem the tide of
California's becoming the "leading" welfare state in the US.  The high cost of
living and doing business in Southern California drives employers and
employees alike to other states.  (Maybe that's a good thing for the traffic
and smog :-), but's clearly not good for the economy.)
--

                                       Greg Jumper
                                       TRW Signal Processing Facility
                                       jumper@spf.trw.com
Newsgroups: la.general
From: brihut@pro-palmtree.socal.com (Brian Hutchings)
Subject: Re: Which is the City of Worst Smog and Pollution / O3
Organization: The Palmtree BBS - 310/453-8726 - Santa Monica, CA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:44:26 GMT

^ibid^
Newsgroups: la.general,ca.general
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: LA metro
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:36:34 GMT

In article <=7yn+-m.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>
>I once heard a talk by an MIT transportation profession, who listed
>20-odd characteristics of a metropolitan area that would make a subway
>or urban rail system "work." He then pointed out that L.A. met none of
>them.

Glad there aren't too many MIT profs running the country.  Too theoretical. (Sunnunu)
I suspect the public rail be a moderate success here.  I use the train for
downtown business from Orange County.  The problem is there isn't much
efficient transport once you get to downtown LA.  THe new line will make it
easier to get to Santa Monica and Westwood from LA I hope.

Rick (course 12, 76)
Newsgroups: la.general