From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Leaders and people (was: A rare occassion of sanity)
Date: 12 Oct 92 06:56:32 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


A very interesting and important discussion is developing in the remarks
of Andrej Brodnik, Erland Sommarskog, Davor Matic and myself. It started
on Soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna, but I'll cross-post it to soc.culture.yugoslavia
too.

Let me briefly sum it up:

I have stated that:

the leaders of all of our Republics are responsible for this war and said
the following:

In article <Oct.11.10.50.12.1992.21657@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:

>But all of you
>are in fact in the same pot: the only ones who could possibly have any
>profit or gain are these leaders! They are playing with the lives of
>their own peoples just like chess figures: with no regard for the
>humanity and human lives.

Erland Sommarskog made a comment:

>I just want to repeat Ana's lines, as I think there is much truth
>in them. There are many participators in these newsgroups, on all
>sides, who should take these words to their hearts.

Andrej Brodnik made a comment:
 
>Though I mostly agree Ana and Erland, I'd like to add a small remark.
>Namely that these leaders are fulfilling somebody's will. And this is
>not only their personal will. Hence this "leaders" need to be
>described a bit more.

Ana: 
Please clarify what you mean with "fulfilling somebody's will".

Erland Sommarskog also made a comment:

>You indeed have a point here. To wit: we can say that we are innocent,
>at least not when we elected these leaders and encouraged them.


Andrej to Ana:
>Ok, but don't be disappointed with my answers though.

Ana:
> Do you think they are fulfilling the "Will of the People"?

>For sure the "will of _some_ people". The whole problem is basiclly
>here, namely how many people? When somebody says "democratical will"
>is assumed the will of majority of people. Or at least the will of
>those who elected the "leaders". But yes, it is yet another problem
>here. Namely how does one cast his vote? If certain nation elects
>somebody with a majority, is this democratic? Never mind, but my
>answer on your question is that they are fulfilling will of some
>people at least.


At this point Davor Matic made a comment:

>Allow me to pick up on this tangent.  The way I interpret and agree with this
>is that these leaders are fulfilling the will of the people, namely Serbian
>people.  The political situation in the war zones, such as Serbian Republic
>of BiH is so unstable, that no single leader could survive without strong
>support form the people.  And there are so many sides to the conflict
>that people could pick, that you can hardly say anyone was forced to kill
>and slaughter their neighbours.  Most of the people chose to do it on their
>own.  Not even the fear of being expelled from their comunities could justify 
>many of the crimes commited.



At this point I want to make a comment

What both Davor's and Andrej's remarks boil down to is that the leaders
have to have some support from the people. I agree, they do have to
have support of some people. How many? Majority? I don't know... but
I wish to briefly remind you that:

The media are almost 100% in the hands of the leaders and are (and were)
spreading the strongest version of propaganda and lies (on all sides!!).

The people were systematically, in the course of at least 10 (if not more)
years, driven into an economic abyss, without any hope for recovery, and
were at the point when the war started already terribly angry, desperate,
and confused.

The first incidents in this war clearly came from the governments! (orders
in the Army to fire on people, formation of paramilitary troups and
arming them, letting criminals lead "volonteers" to kill, burn, loot and
commit other atrocities against the "others", using international mercenaries
as a support, staging attacks on one's own people and blaming the other side, 
using same videotapes of terrible attrocities on both Croatian and 
Serbian TV with comments pointing to the guilt of the Other side... 
etc there is a lot, we all know that). And once in war, one is surely
going to get even more support. It is always: "we have to defend ourselves".

I am not excusing any atrocities! Don't get me wrong again. My point only
is that the leaders are in the POWER to create the support using lies and
propaganda, and people's fears. The leaders are also in power to choose
decisions and to predict an outcome of certain moves much better than
the people. The people may have chosen them because of certain ideas
they have promissed, but on the day to day's basis, they and only they
decide what to do and what to order. And they tell the people that only
that will fulfill whatever...

I am sure that the ultimate will of all our peoples, even in this terrible
war is not to destroy the others, but to create a better life for themselves.
They were told before the war, and they are told now that they cannot
create any life for themselves because of the other Nation or Nations (be
it Serbs, Croats or Moslems). They were "told" is not a right word: they were
systematically exposed to the worst kind of propaganda. And what is
blatantly obvious, nationalist extremists on all sides played right into
each other hands! And still do! They are giving true reasons to other
sides to be completely sure that THEY MUST DEFEND THEMSELVES.

So this is the "will" of the people they are fulfilling. And the longer
this war lasts the more people will support these leaders who promise
them to defend them from the ENEMY.

But there are other people on all sides as well! People who don't think
that it is other nations to blame, people who do not want to kill even
if they themselves are threatened to be killed (either by the other
side or by their own extremists who do not stand any disagreement).
Maybe they are a minority now. Especially in Bosnia where the war is
so severe and so bloody on the whole territory. Yet, one reads of the
refugees who were returned to Bosnia (by Croat government) because
they were in the "right" age group to be soldiers. And one reads about
refugees from Croatia and Bosnia in Serbia who did not "stay to defend
their homes" (men of the "right" age). And one reads about 100.000
"deserters" from the Army (yugoslav)! etc.

These (and many others) are not the people whose will is fulfilled by
the leaders. But it could be! (Maybe not these leaders, though). And
it could have been... if only the leaders didn't decide to go on the
war path!

Only, the most difficult thing is not to trust the leaders, not to
believe the propaganda, especially when no other sources of information
are available, and even when they are, if they are dicredited as the
enemy's propaganda! 

.....
This has become too long. I am sorry. But please do continue the
discussion, and let's try to make things more clear for ourselves
instead of insulting each other. I am sure we can find points of
agreement among ourselves no matter what particular nationality we
belong to. And if we can't, (we in this narrow electronic medium, who don't
count at all and whose opinions nobody of real importance is
going to listen to, after all) who can? And if and when we disagree, let's
disagree on the ground of facts and documentation, not on the
ground of hatred.


Regards

Ana

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Ana M. Shane                                 voice: (215) 843-2909
              pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna