HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:22:59 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech

In article <1992Jul26.145638.8927@dscomsf.desy.de>, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) writes:
|> In article <BrywrI.Hpq@watserv1.waterloo.edu>,
|> idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu (id friedman) writes:
|> 

|> The conditions for the ending of the Arab boycott are rather more
|> substantial than mere suspension of building settlements. In any case
|> the US granting the loan guarantees is ample reward for Israel not doing
|> something that it cannot afford and is in breach of international law.

	As has been pointed out many times, Israel is NOT in breach of 
international law.

|> This is only the essential first step to show that Israel is serious
|> about the peace negotiations. It is futile to expect more than than. 
|> 
|> It also looks like the talks are going to have to encompass some
|> discussion of Lebanon since returning the situation there to normality
|> is rather urgent and probably a precondition for peace. Syria should be
|> wanting to get out as well if they have any sense. Otherwise the
|> Lebaneese will unite to get rid of them. Armies do not make good
|> ambassadors.
|> 
|> 
|> Phill Hallam-Baker
|> 
	You are working under the assumption that Syria is a Western-style
country which respects international borders.  In Syria's case this is pure
nonsense.  Assad has indicated on many occasions that he regards Lebanon as
part of Greater Syria (and there is some historical basis for this).  In 
addition, Lebanon provides Syria with territory on which to grow drugs (Bekaa
Valley), and to train terrorist groups (also in the Bekaa Valley).  So to 
suggest that Assad actually wants to pull out of Lebanon is showing more than
a bit of naivete.  As for the idea that the "Lebanese will unite...", the 
Lebanese have not been able to unite for the past 17 years against those same
Syrians (who have been in Lebanon since 1975), and should anyone be so silly, 
I seriously doubt that Assad would have any compunctions against a repeat
performance of Hama.  So the only role that Lebanon will play in the 
negociations is to loudly parrot the Syrian line.

	Elya
From: nyh@wpi.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israel-mideast: "hadashot" editorial
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:16:50 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute



from the israel-mideast mail list:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hadashot" calls for the immediate repeal of the law preventing contact
with the PLO following yesterday's meeting in Tunis between Arab-Israelis
and the PLO leadership.  The paper claims that such meetings will
inevitably take place frequently over the next couple of months and that
such legislation is an obstruction to the peace process.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

the israel-mideast list is prepared in the Israeli embassy in New York
[the occupied one :)] it is a collection of editorials.  "hadashot" is
a young Israeli news paper [young is the newspapers rather then the
readers that is].


I agree with this editorial - this is a fine time for the law to crawl
back to the hate cave it crawled out from.


	-Nevo
-- 
Nevo Y.	 Hed              nyh@wpi.wpi.edu
++1-508-754-2491          CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
Date: 26 Jul 92 14:56:38 GMT
Reply-To: hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: DESY ZEUS Central Data Acquisition

In article <BrywrI.Hpq@watserv1.waterloo.edu>,
idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu (id friedman) writes:

|>In article <1992Jul24.173903.11971@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU
|>(Brad Hernlem) writes:
|>>In article <1xhmrlb.analyst@netcom.com>, analyst@netcom.com (David
|>>Sternlight) writes:
|>>> 
|>>> Despite this announcement, Syria has said it won't do anything in
|>>> return. Since it takes Syria for the Arab Boycott to be cancelled,
|>>> this is tantamount to saying that won't happen.
|>>
|>>What has Israel done? -- agreed not to build a number of settlement
|>that
|>>weren't even started or weren't even contracted for yet and
|>announced
|>>accelerated settlement in East Jerusalem!
|>
|>
|> The Arab countries promised the end of the boycott for the stopping
|> of settlements. Israel has agreed to the latter.

No, this is not the case. Israel has temporarily ceased to issue new
contracts in some of the occupied teritories. They have not made an
undertaking not to resume. Whereas the other Arab states are unlikely to
conider the Golan Heights a significant matter in this regard, Syria
does.

The conditions for the ending of the Arab boycott are rather more
substantial than mere suspension of building settlements. In any case
the US granting the loan guarantees is ample reward for Israel not doing
something that it cannot afford and is in breach of international law.

This is only the essential first step to show that Israel is serious
about the peace negotiations. It is futile to expect more than than. 

It also looks like the talks are going to have to encompass some
discussion of Lebanon since returning the situation there to normality
is rather urgent and probably a precondition for peace. Syria should be
wanting to get out as well if they have any sense. Otherwise the
Lebaneese will unite to get rid of them. Armies do not make good
ambassadors.


Phill Hallam-Baker
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 10:20:35 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!

Sandra writes:
Oh right....Jews only go ONCE A YEAR to the wall....And on MONDAY.

The videos showed it all-right...and afterward American public
opinion of Israel plummeted downward and sympathy for Palestinians
went UP.  Yeah, the videos did indeed show it...


I say:
I expected you knew that the incident occured the day of the year
that the biggest crowd goes to the wall.  The fact that you did not
know about it should have made you check it on your own, not simply
discard it, as you do.  Actually you avoid completely to answer
the points I made and go into bragging about the reaction of people
even more uninformed than you are.

Rad
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan)
Subject: Re: Shamir, at least, thought settlements were an obstacle...
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:48:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.130549.3380@spcvxb.spc.edu>, siegfried_r@spcvxb.spc.edu writes:
|> In article <3418@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>, 
|> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:

|> > Really?  Shall I bring Old Testament quotes to refute what you
|> > are saying here?  Did you ever hear of Beni Israeli refer to
|> > Abraham's other sons as The Sons Of Darkness?
|> 	I would REALLY like to see the Scriptural quote for THIS!!
|> 					Robert Siegfried
|> 					Computer Science Dept.
|> 					Saint Peter's College
|> 					Jersey City, NJ  07306
|> 					siegfried_r@spcvxa.spc.edu

	As I have pointed out before, the term "Sons of Darkness" does occur
in the scriptures.  Unfortunately for Anisa, it occurs in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
(I believe the scroll is entitled "The War between the Sons of Light and the
Sons of Darkness".  It's actually a fascinating work, from the historical 
point of view.)  Even more unfortunate for Anisa, it is an eschatological work
in which the author(s) envision a final battle between Good (Sons of Light) and
Evil (Sons of Darkness), before the coming of the Messiah.  As best as I can
remember, no mention is made of "Abraham's other sons".

	So either Anisa got confused, and didn't bother to check her facts, or
she has an overactive imagination.

	Elya
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:28:20 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Jul30.014215.5200@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
=>In article <24242@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
=>>In article <1992Jul27.201713.20989@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
=>
=>>=> Israel
=>>=>has a more efficient military by a long way; this means that when they
=>>=>answer rocket fire somebody is going to get hurt. That the Palestinian
=>>=>forces in Lebanon are not as good at what they are trying to do is not
=>>=>Israel's problem.
=>>
=>>You have a funny way of defining "efficiency" I guess you'd say that the
=>>Philly police were "efficient" at removing the "Move" folk from their 
=>>houses. Most people would have considered the number of civilian casualties
=>>when evaluating "efficiency" - you obviously have other (numbers of) standards.
=>
=>I have an economically precise, if somewhat ruthless, definition of
=>efficiency: getting done what you want done at minimum cost to you.

So, I take it that you approve of the Philadelphia police tactics?
Can you rate, in your terms, the efficiency of the Turkish slaughter
of the Armenians (supposin, for the sake of argument, that it occurred.
I, myself, believe it did, but I'm only interested in Nora's ideas on
"efficiency" at the moment, so I don't want to be sidetracked by the
Turkish/Armenian feud). How about Saddams "efficiency" in gassing the 
Kurds? 
It therefore follows that you are happy for Israel to be in the same 
moral category as the Turks, the Iraquis, etc.
Such high standards you set yourself.

=>
=>>-Jeremy Henderson        egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk   
=>
=>>(or am I?)
=>
=>No; you're actually Schmidling in disguise.

No; I'm actually Lyndon LaRouche's brother-in-law.



-- 
-Jeremy Henderson        egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk   

(or am I?)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nyh@joseph.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed)
Subject: Today's Israeline - Rabin's govt. survives a no confidence vote.
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:57:51 GMT


from today's Israeline
======================================================================
Rabin Government to Face First No-Confidence Motion

Today's HA'ARETZ reports that Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak
Rabin's new government will face its first Parliamentary test today
when the parties in the opposition will cast their no-confidence
vote against the government. In anticipation of the deliberation
and the no-confidence vote, there will be a general drafting of
Knesset Members from both the coalition and the opposition.
According to the newspaper, it seems that only fifty MK's (from the
Likud, Tsomet, Mafdal, and Moledet parties) will support the no-
confidence vote. Knesset Members from the Yahadut Hatorah party
will be divided tomorrow on the vote. Agudat Yisrael MK's Avraham
Shapira, Menahem Porush, and Shmuel Halpert will abstain from
voting, and Degel Hatorah's Avraham Ravitz will vote against the
government. Voting against the no-confidence vote will be 67 MK's:
representatives of the Labor, Meretz, and Shas parties and the Arab
parties.
======================================================================

Acording to NPR Rabin's govt survived the no confidence vote[s?].  The
vote was pretty much driven by Rabin's freez policy.

-- 
Nevo Y.	 Hed              nyh@wpi.wpi.edu
++1-508-754-2491          CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.iranian
From: oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 21 Jul 92 08:36:57 GMT
Organization: IMAG, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
: 
: 
: Does anyone have access to the official French version of Resolution
: 242?  It would be interesting to see how that part was expressed in
: the usually very precise French. Or it may be, since French was "the
: language of diplomacy" that the French have even more elegant ways of
: waffling "the territories" than we do.
 
  I'll try to find the official version somewhere, all what i have handy is a
magazine called historama (a very serious one) and the text mentionned is
"retrait DES territoires occupes". Notice that this DES is a combinaison of
two articles : DE + LES which leaves no doubt that the French version means
THE territories, if i can find enough time i'll try to check it in a more
"serious" source.
  BTW, the term used frequently here by the media and by politicians is the
same as above. 

--
Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. ouicheck@imag.imag.fr
    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | LABORATOIRE 	BULL-IMAG
Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |
From: ilyess@halley.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arabs are very cheap
Date: 25 Jul 92 16:06:21 GMT
Organization: ECE - Concordia University

In article <1992Jul23.063340.9017@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
  To clear things: I meant that Arab Labor is cheap. it is a fact of
 life and therefore I included it in my estimation of the probabilty
 of workabilty of the solution proposed. 

I understood what you meant, but it seemed you enjoyed using
the term "Arabs are cheap" instead of saying Arab labor is cheaper..
I was also saying that the Hamas platform really answer your statetment:
" we'd rather be dead than cheap."
 
   BTW, it is well known that the wages in Arab countries surrounding
 Israel (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan) are even lower than the wages
 the Gaza strippers are getting. The Arabs in the territories suffer 

If there are any strippers in gaza it is only natural that they
would be paid a higher wage than the average Arab :-)
On the serious side, Any statistics, and don't compare to Egypt,
it is one of the most miserable and poor countries in the Arab world despite 
all the help it is getting..

>economically mainly because they are rebelious and therefore it is

You expect them to bow to you in thanks for the remains of your
meals that you graciously threw to them? Why don't you ask any
Palestinian, do they prefer to get half their wage  and stay or return
to their home  (depending on whether they are in refugee camps) in 
an independent Palestine? the answer would be automatic..

I got news for you:
Palestinians are not dogs, if you take their home they will not accept
even if you feed them from the remains..

  I think the Hamas platform is a continuation of the traditional Arab 
 attitude towards Israel. It is just a more honest and indignant than
 the PLO or Syrian views.
 
 My evaluation is an apreciated justification of the Israeli Right 
 wing platform if anything. :-)

So let the left winger stay aside, and leave us "right wingers" solve
it the only way we know how to solve conflicts: the old fashioned way!


----------------
Disclaimer:

Some or all of my statements above are bordering on sarcasm and
hence should not be considered as reflestion of my views. 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:56:25 GMT


In article <1992Jul16.195528.11639@mcs.kent.edu>, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
>In article <1992Jul16.180119.17755@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul16.074139.2910@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:


>>>
>>>...21 worshippers murdered in Al-Aqsa...
>>
>>If you're referring to the Temple Mount Incident, there was much, *much*
>>more to this than just that, as you well know.  They weren't
>>worshippers, they were throwing rocks down at the 10-20K Jews in the
>
>We've been through this before, too.  They were *reacting* to a large
>group of Jews marching to the"Temple" demanding the destruction of
>Al Aqsa to make way for the new temple.  What are Muslims supposed to
>do: applaud????
>

First this group is not a large one. Second, they were banned from entering to
the "Temple" by the Israeli Supreme Court, and every body knew it including the
Arabs. Third, they were not *reaching* to that group at all, they just throwing
stones on every body who was near by. 



>Sandra.


--
Naftaly Stramer (303)530-0441, FAX (303)581-0106    DAZIX, An Intergraph Company
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  6285 Lookout Road    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            Boulder, CO 80301
Please excuse my English
From: analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Prote
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:04:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Pinkas asks why I announce Arens is on my kill list, and whether he is on.

Arens is on my kill list as a protest against his language and tactics,
which I think unacceptable among civilized, educated people. He writes
from a quasi-academic institution (USC-ISI) and knowing a little
about his background I know he knows better. A protest is not useful
if it is invisible, and if invisible cannot have much effect in
making my contribution to the group's "contemporary community
standards". Alert readers will notice that those on my kill
list have in common brutish, nasty, rude and offensive behavior,
and come from a variety of ideological, ethnic, and political
positions. There are nasty Arabs on the list, and civilized Arabs not.
There are nasty Israelis on the list, and civilized Israelis not.
There are nasty Turks on the list, and civilized Turks not. There
are nasty Americans on the list, and civilized Americans not.

Secondly, it's my right to announce anything I do that I think might
be of interest to others in this group. It's called "free speech", Pinkas,
and you'll notice it was expressed in a civilized manner.

Finally, no, Pinkas, you aren't on my kill list because though we disagree,
you do so in a civilized manner appropriate to this group, and not to
the gutter. Disagreement with me isn't a criterion for being on my list.

-- 
David Sternlight        David Sternlight Inc.        email:analyst@netcom.COM
From: ilyess@davinci.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:08:19 GMT
Organization: ECE - Concordia University

In article <1992Jul22.155358.24112@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
David said:
>|>  	At any rate this whole argument is ridiculous.  It is not for
>|>    anyone else to determine what another country declares is its
>|>    capital.
>|>  --
>|> 

I replied (with an obvious sarcasm)

>|> That is why you should not object if Palestine  (or even Jordan) declares 
>|> Jerusalem as its capital!
>
to which Elya replied: 

>	Whew... Now you've done it.  Before I thought you were just a paranoic.
>Now I realize that you are an idiot as well.  So let me remind you of a few
>facts:  
....

Mr. Kapelyan, I am not good at mud-wrestling, but people with IQ's
higher than mediocre should understand what I was saying (at least Mr. 
MacKowskey did, sorry for not remembering the name right).
I was talking hypothetically with a bit of sarcasm.

About the U.S government receiving orders:
Nobdy can deny these two facts:

1) In the U.s systems the PACs and the secial interest groups are
the ones who determine the agenda of the President and Congress.
2)The pro-Israeli PAC's are the most powerfule most organized and most
influencial lobbies around.

The rest is left as an exercise to the student..

I feel like picking on you Mr. Kapelyan, so you say:

>	4. If "Palestine" can claim Jm as its capital the state of "Bozonia"
>	   can claim Mecca as its capital.

If you are making fun of Bosnia, it is expected since Israel helped
arm the Serbs and is allied with them against the Muslims.

Armenia-Serbia-South Africa-Israel-Southern Lebanese Army-Columbia Drug Cartel-
Southern Sudan Army-(Ex)Nicaragua Contras. What an alliance, what a crowd!!
I wonder what is next?
>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Arab Gestures
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 17:17:46 GMT


Can anybody list any substantial Arab gestures of goodwill towards Israel,
say comparable to ending the intifada, stopping terrorist attacks on
civilians, ending the boycott, ending the secondary and tertiery aspects of
the boycott, ceasing to distribute anti-semitic literature such as the
Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or something comparable?

Or can anybody explain why it is always Israel that is called on to take
confidence-building measures? 

-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: odkahn@eos.ncsu.edu (Opher D. Kahn)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: NUKE IRAQ
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:43:06 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <l7dnbeINNnc9@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>, brian@baja.Corp.Sun.COM (Brian Edge) writes:
|> 
|>   Lets just be done with it and nuke'um.  The people of Iraq are
|>   protesting against the UN and US, they are atacking the UN teams,
|>   why should we feel sorry for them and not want to harm the people
|>   of Iraq?  I'm tried of the US pussy footing around with the 
|>   Iraq scum.  Maybe we should just let Israel take care of them since
|>   Bush can't seem to handle the job.
|>   
|>   Just say Nuke'em
|>   
|>   Brian

I will first state that I would gladly see Saddam go.  BUT:

Let's imagine a slightly different scenario.  Lets say the US did not
have veto power in the UN security council, and all the other countries
decided they want to eliminate the terrible threat of nuclear war by
disarming the U.S.  Don't you think more than a few Americans would rise
in protest if UN and perhaps Russion and Chinese representatives wanted
to gain entry to federal buildings in D.C. and search for evidence of the
U.S.'s weapons programs???  I know I would.  The fact that some majority
or powerful portion of the U.N. decided they have the right to do with
Iraq as they please does not have to satisfy the Iraqi people!


-- 
 Opher D. Kahn 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast