From: hulsey@dbsun.uucp (hulsey)
Subject: Re: Gardner on Evolution
Organization: BioMerieux-Vitek, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:18:46 GMT

tcanham@kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.120101@cozy.Prime.COM> dwolff@cozy (David Wolff) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.223154.1867@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>,
>>tcanham@kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Tim Canham) writes:
>>>                                      
>>> This is the root of the issue.  A person who rules out supernaturalistic
>>> origins must settle for evolution, because there is no other conceivable
>>> naturalistic solution.  Even when evolution violates fundamental
>>                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> naturalistic, verifiable laws such as the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics 
>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> (i.e. closed systems tend to move toward disorder, or randomness, or 
>>> unusable forms of energy, depending on application), it still must be
>>> accepted because the only alternative is a supernaturalistic 
>>> explanantion, no matter its scope.  The profound transition from
>>> evolution to creation is not scientific, but _philosophical_.
>>
>>Thank you for making your intellectual bankruptcy clear beyond
>>any possible misunderstanding.
>>
>>The Earth is not a closed system.  It has a thermonuclear fusion only
>>a few light-minutes away constantly spewing energy onto one side, and it
>>radiates toward a blackbody absorber (the universe) on the other side.
>>
>>Really, if you want to disguise your rampant fundie-ism, you should
>>make sure you never use this argument.
>>
[edited to fit in 80 columns]
>
>Give me a little credit....  
>The conditions that supposedly produce evolutionary
>change are supposedly based in universal principles, and
>Dr. Who and others aside,
>I think the universe is a closed system.  To allow the part of evolution which 
>hypothesizes a move from less complex structures to more complex, you also
>must allow a massive local cessation of entropy.

Creationist denial of evolution reason #14:  The 2nd Law of thermodynamics.

It *is* possible to have a localized decrease in entropy, but it is always
accompanied by an increase elsewhere either equal to or greater than the
localized decrease.  Hence the term "closed system".

For example, a computer program.  Random bytes of data will not do
anything useful.  However, the programmer orders the data until it
does what it is supposed to (hopefully).  The entropy of the program
has decreased.  But the program is not a closed system.  The programmer
expended energy ordering the program.  The amount of entropy increase
by this expended energy more than offsets the decrease due to the now
ordered program.

Therefore, evolution does not violate the 2nd Law because the Earth is not
a closed system.  The Sun constantly bathes us with energy, decreasing
entropy locally (on the Earth), but it is more than offset by the nuclear
fusion reactions happening in the Sun.

A freshmen physics class and a beginning thermodynamics text will
provide better, quantitative examples.

Fundamentalists user this argument over and over again because it
sounds scientific, and a short reading of the law without explaining
what it really means lends credence to their claim.  And most
fundamentalists will not question what was told them, so they won't
look into it.  But the argument falls apart on close examination.

The best version of the 2nd Law I have ever heard :

  "To get something clean, you have to get something else dirty."

Think about it.  It is possible to get things clean, isn't it?
Sometimes, even by accident?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
hulsey%dbsun.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu (Jim Hulsey)   TBDBITL '84 ('85 Rose Bowl)
An Ohioan living in Misery (Missouri, same difference)

Watch what you say!                Won't you sign up your name
They'll be calling you a radical   So you can be their dependable
A liberal, fanatical criminal      Respectable, presentable vegetable
--  Supertramp "The Logical Song"
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