From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Lev and Drieux do history part I
Date: 12 Apr 92 20:23:31 GMT
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper


Please Note that lev sent this to me in email, and has
specifically stated that it is for public release. I will
Kibbitz from there.

>Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 21:12:54 EDT
>To: drieux@wetware.com
>Subject: remembering why no one in the family was terribly upset when it was announced that Papa Joe was dead, etc.
>
>I'll not consider this private email, if that makes a difference, 
>and I'd hate to let the net think that I agreed with everything 
>you said because my silence would be taken as agreement.
>Feel free to post to the net should you be feeling generous..................

>Thanks for granting the point of equivocation.
>BTW, fear of the KGB has never been a motivation for my writing style  
>( My father's family dealt with those individuals during the war, and  
>after a period as involuntary "guests" in Tadzhikistan, everything  
>was cleared up); perhaps you were extrapolating from the cause of  
>your own unique writing style? :).
>
>Regarding General Vlasov: true and certain it is that Stalin was an  
>SOB, and his perception of POW's as traitoruos for allowing  
>themselves to be captured is merely one more indication that the man  
>was skewed. Nevertheless, General Vlasov et al's decision to join the  
>German Army for the duration goes a bit far, don't you agree?
>Last I heard, it was incumbent upon prisoners to attempt escape; at  
>the very least, they're not supposed to aid and abet the enemy.
>While Vlasov may have figured he had nothing to lose (as he'd be  
>considered a traitor anyway) and just joined to keep fed,the  
>enthusiasm shown by many of these troops seems to indicate that they  
>were not just in it for extra sauerbraten. In any case, as soon as  
>Vlasov& his men took up arms against the Soviet Union, they were  
>indeed committing treason. 

1. Yes, the AMERICAN CODE OF CONDUCT is clear on the obligations
of a POW in regards to the matter of resistence.

2. Vlasov, et al, were neither americans, nor POWs.

3. We are talking here of one of the classic, 'lesser of two
evils' notion, and that from the luxury of a good bit of history,
and the pleasant well fed position of persons who enjoy an unreasonably
large amount of liberty. All of which is why I find this whole thread
to be VERY RELEVANT to the discussion of the 'abortion debate' as it
would be incumbant upon us to pause, and ponder, how we too would react
in such cases, and not merely pontificate from the pleasant lives we
currently live.

4. The flip side of this whole discussion is the matter of the Spanish
Civil War, and the place of the Soviet Aid in that struggle against
Fascism..... I presume you are aware of George Orwell's writings on
that period, as well as his concerns about the extremes of both the
fascists and the communists, and their respective ThoughtPolice.

>In fact, some captured Soviet soldiers seem to have had quite a bit  
>of enthusiasm for their duties with their  new allies, most notably  
>Ivan Marchenko/Demjanjuk, who took to anticommunism with a  
>vengeance...........................

Turn about being fair play, one can also take into account the 
number of Nazi/SS who found a home in the then Newly Formed People's
Republics in Central Europe. {As opposed to the number of antifascists
who went to the wall, at their hands of their Red Liberators....}

I believe that we are therefore in concurance that life is a 
harsh reality, and rarely as pleasant an encounter as on Nick_at_Nite.

>That having been said, I do indeed condemn the forced repatriation of  
>White Russians who were not in fact Soviet citizens, in the event  
>that no crimes were committed against Soviet nationals by these  
>individuals.

Hum... a small problem here... who is to arbitrate who was what
and which 'crimes' were committed against whom... 

As a part of the Russian Emigre Community Abroad, stalin was still of
the general opinion that they were essentially Soviet Citizens, as they
had not yet, in most cases, become citizens of an other country.

And like many countries where in mere birth within their sovereign
borders is sufficient for that state to lay claim to sovereignty
over said person... we have the problem of deciding who's citizens
they really are.....

Funny, but this is back to that matter of Birth As an arbitor of BEING.

>As for Wehrmacht members held by the USSR into the 50's, I am  
>familiar with this particularly despicable practice of the USSR, as  
>my mother's father had the misfortune of being such a prisoner  
>(drafted in '40, captured '42, released '50).

Life is full of such fun matters... One of my friends, had the 
amusement that one uncle was drafted and fought in russia with
the germans, while the other joined the marqui and fought the
germans.... 

ciao
drieux


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