HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: evore@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Eric J Vore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Shotgun ammo sequence.
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:38:38 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University


     As these discussions of armed encounters are common on the net, similarly,
you may find it the topic of conversation when a bunch of gun enthusiasts get 
together to shoot.  My topic revolves around a debate I have been participating
in for years now; in defending your home with a shotgun, is there any "best" 
combination or sequence of ammo which would be optimal?
     Some arguments go like this:
     1. slug, 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, etc..  The idea being an assortment of 
hallway sweeping, door/wall penetrating loads which will tend to seek and 
eliminate your intruder.
     2. #8, #6, #4, BB, 00 buck, 000 buck, slug.  The idea is to apply the 
least amount of force necessary (yes, catching any of these would be terrible) 
to at least try to preserve life, and you could cycle through rounds if the 
situation escalted too quickly.
     3. 00 buck, 00 buck, 00 buck, etc..  A series of very nasty loads designed
to stop the intruder, since you would never fire a gun at a person otherwise.
     4. slug, slug, slug, etc..  If you could get the shots off accuratly, this
would stop even quicker than idea 3.

     There are, of course, an infinite number of combinations, but these seem 
to be what I hear the most.  Does anyone out there have any other ideas?

E. Vore...
From: 6820230@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:54:46 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.


 My vote is to continue rec.guns in its present format.

I've learned a lot from the various technical discussions.  I've also enjoyed
the humor and/or clarification offered in way of moderator comments.  Keep up
the good work!

-- Heidi Simonsen
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense
Date: 9 Nov 92 03:04:28 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Nov5.004254.3842@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:

}Laser sights seem to be the real intimidator. Having that bright
}red spot playing over your chest can make you really queasy.  ...

Only if you notice it.  If you're going through a dark house and think you
may have encountered an armed defender, are you going to be paying much
attention to your chest?

Mas Ayoob doesn't think so.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmuller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: rec.guns digest SPECIAL EDITION
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:54:29 GMT

I think the moderator does a fine job. I see no problem with an occasional
editorial comment so identified. 

CHL
From: weba@lk-hp-19.hut.fi (Veijo P L{nsikunnas)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .44 magnum Black powder loads
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:06:12 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland



Does anybody know any black powder loads for .44 magnum?

I have a Hodgdon reloading manual, but there are only loads for
.44spl. Is it safe to fire .44 specials in a rifle chambered
for .44 magnum?

Are there differences between different brands of black powder?

---
Veijo Lansikunnas               If you are going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
weba@niksula                                                 - Il Brutto
From: ole@delab.sintef.no (Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Neck sizing
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:53:24 GMT
Organization: SINTEF DELAB, Trondheim, Norway.

What about a partial resizing with a standard die, i.e. you resize the
neck but do not set the shoulder back? Works well for me (in .308),
but I suppose it depends on the chamber dimensions.
From: btm@well.sf.ca.us (Brian Millin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: GLOCK 17L
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:50:03 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

In article <199211101847.AA02378@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
#I'd like to hear some comments and/or review on the GLOCK 17L.
#Has anyone used it for serious competition? Has anyone shot
#both the GLOCK 17 and 17L? Any comments on the comparison? Thanks.
#
David:

I own a 17L and a 17, and have used both in IPSC competition for about a year.
The 17L has the 3.5 lb trigger and Millet sights. I have been able to do well
in limited class and C class at the local club level with the 17L. 

There may not be a difference in accuracy between the two, but the handling is
different. The extra sight radius helps, and the lighter trigger is nice. I 
like the extended mag release so much that I put on on the 17 as well. The
17L seems to have a softer recoil and recovery time is faster for me.

I did recently switch to an EAA in 9x21, but would strongly reccomend the 17L
as a good starting point. My only beef is that we need a sight like a Bo-mar
or millet and there are none available. The Millet is OK but the rear notch is
too small for quick aquisition.

Brian Millin
From: deano@areyes.com (Dean Carpenter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:49:05 GMT
Organization: Areyes, Inc.

In article <1992Nov6.172749.29798@unislc.uucp> unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (James Warren) writes:
##From article <RTARAZ.92Nov5125515@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>, by rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz):
## 
## After going to an indoor range for many times, I would like to take my
## Taurus 92 out side for a while.  I like to know what are some fun
## things to shoot at. (i.e.  A television tube should be alot of fun)
## 
## rtaraz
## 
#
#2 liter pop bottles full of water are fun.

  Wrap the plastic bottles up tightly with duct tape, all over except the
bottom.  This includes the neck and cap.  A hollow point hitting this
will cause the water to rupture the bottom, sending the bottle skyward.

  Great fun !

-- 
Dean Carpenter		uunet!areyes!deano		(203) 847-6003
Areyes, Inc.		deano@areyes.com

"No matter where you go, there you are"  sayeth Buckaroo 								 across the Eighth Dimension
From: brian@pdx.csd.mot.com (Brian Vandewettering)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:52:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: pdxvme.1404
Organization: Motorola CSD, Beaverton, OR


In article <RTARAZ.92Nov5125515@bigwpi.WPI.EDU> rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz) writes:
#
#After going to an indoor range for many times, I would like to take my
#Taurus 92 out side for a while.  I like to know what are some fun
#things to shoot at. (i.e.  A television tube should be alot of fun)

Steel targets can be lots of fun.  Collect some scrap and weld together
some knock over targets.  You'll want to experiment with base so that 
it will only fall over with a solid hit.  You can line up a number of
these targets at various ranges to practice speed shooting.  You can
also try used bowling pins, which I hear are lots of fun.  Milk jugs
full of water will blow up nicely but can't be reused.

Safety tips:

1. Always wear eye protection, especially when shooting solid targets.

2. Make sure you have a good backstop. You need a high berm or pit to 
   shoot into, since steel targets can deflect the bullets in unpredictable
   ways.

Sportsman tip:

1. Don't shoot glass.  It's impossible to clean up.

2. Clean up your shooting area.  A number of places are being closed
   to the public because of 'shooters' trashing the place.  I've seen places
   where people take tv's, washing machines, cans, bottles to a gravel pit.
   Shoot them up and leave them.  No wonder we 'shooters' have a bad
   public image.


#
#rtaraz


-- 
"It cannot be presumed that any clause in the Constitution is intended to
be without effect..."

- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
From: moore@tc.fluke.COM (Matt Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Pistol Grip On A Shotgun ( was: Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns? )
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:25:21 GMT
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

In article <199211110500.AA07324@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:

#I'm sorry that I didn't make my question clear. This particular shotgun I'm
#talking about, Benelli M1 Super 90, has a pistol grip *AND* a stock. Think 
#it as an AR-15. So, please let me re-state my question. Is a shotgun of this
#configuration ( pistol grip + stock ) better or one like Beretta Model 1200 
#Riot ( stock only )? Thanks.
#

 I have a Mossberg 500 12-ga shotgun. I bought a Choate pistol grip /
stock for it, of the sort you describe. After two trips to the trap range
I went back to the original stock. The problem with a pistol grip stock is
that your trigger hand no longer absorbs any recoil, so your face gets to
absorb it. The gun seems to kick up further and harder, probably because
you are grasping it below the bore axis instead of along the axis.

 The pistol grip / stock feels better in the gun store, because your
shooting wrist is not bent unnaturally, but it feels much worse on the
range.

						Matt Moore
						John Fluke Mfg. Co.
						standard disclaimers apply
From: RICH@wvnvm.wvnet.edu (Richard E. Lynch)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trajectory question
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:00:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: wvnvm.92311.114157RICH

Perhaps I'm wrong on this but I have been told that with high velocity rifle
cartridges the bullet exits the barrel before the effects of recoil begin and
that with handguns the bullet exits after the effects of recoil begin.  If
this is true then I wouldn't expect recoil to be a factor in where the bullet
impacts the target.
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ivor Johnson .410 shotgun
Date: 14 Nov 92 02:57:53 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <geoff.66.721635502@hawkesbury.uws.EDU.AU> geoff@hawkesbury.uws.edu.au (Geoff Russell) writes:
#I have inherited my grandfather's Ivor Johnson 410 single shot
#hammer action shot gun but I know nothing of it's age or origin.

  According to the Blue Book 13th ed. Iver Johnson made only
one shotgun which had an exposed hammer and was in .410 gauge.
This is the Champion model and it was manufactured 1909-1956.
The .410 gauge is one of the most valuable of these, with a
value in mint conditon of over $500.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: ummar115@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Robert James Martens)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Colt speedloaders & PPC
Date: 7 Nov 92 16:05:40 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

Does anyone know any commercial sources for (spring loaded or otherwise)
sppedloaders that fit Colt King Cobra .357 Magnum or  Colt Detective
Special .38Spl (6 shot)? 
Will Colt Trooper model speedloaders fit a King Cobra?
Does anyone have any suggestions for good W231 loads for PPC with either
158gr. RN or other ammo?

Thanks in advance, please e-mail me at ummar115@ccu.umanitoba.ca
From: g_cook@idaho2.csd.sgi.com (Gregory T. Cook)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Dot Site for a GP100
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:55:55 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

I am looking at Dot sites for a Ruger GP100 .357 w/6" barrel. 
I am most interested in the Tasco ProPoint III and the 
Aimpoint 3000 & 5000.

I have seen the Propoint advertised for about 180. Is that
a good price? The 5000 is a little steep at about 250.

Does anyone out there have a recommendation one way or another?
As well as for mounting hardware? Of course I'd prefer not to drill
and tap holes... But I can live with it if it's the best method.

Now back to our program.


-- 

  -------------------------------------------------
   Greg Cook, Product Manager|         
   Support Marketing         |  (415) 390-1509
   Silicon Graphics Inc.     |  g_cook@csd.sgi.com  
  -------------------------------------------------
From: minh@inst-sun1.tmc.edu (Minh Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Little-known membership benefits of the NRA
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:05:33 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, USA

In article <q0PwTB1w164w@upchrch.UUCP> upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
#I've got my sticker, but I never put it on my car for two reasons. The
#first is that I think window and bumper sticker are tacky. The second is
#that I figure that it's more likely that someone will break into my car
#if they think they might find some guns and the NRA sticker might be all
#the hint they need to look. For the same reason I don't like to leave
#anything visible in the passenger compartment when my car is parked.
I have a different reasoning concerning NRA stickers. I have put
them on my new Bronco since day one and nobody had ever tried
to break in. May be when they see the NRA stickers and were
afraid being shot when caught? :-)))
From: stropp@Mayo.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Moderation?
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:54:56 GMT

To moderate or not to moderate?

Dr. Jim,

    I think your moderation of this net is a classic example of how a net
*should* be moderated.  I want to take this opportunity to thank you for
your efforts in making this forum more enjoyable to me.  You invisibly
filter out inappropriate items that I would not want to read, you inject
an appropriate amount of humor which I appreciate and you supply obvious
answers to some questions which saves some bandwidth.

    Your handling of this lone call for unmoderation is a demonstration
of your fairness.  He comes on like a jerk and you still treat him and his
request with respect.

    I join the ranks that support you.  Please continue.

                             Thanks,
                             John
__________________________________________________________________
| John Stropp             | 507/255-5471           |             |
| Cardiovascular Research | stropp@fermat.mayo.edu |             |
| 5-220C Joseph           | stropp@bru.mayo.edu    |             |
| Mayo Clinic             | stropp@mayo.edu        |             |
| 200 SW First Street     |                                      |
| Rochester, MN  55905    |     Happiness is a tight group !     |
------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments and opinions expressed here are mine, only.
From: jpchou@camelot.Eng.Sun.COM (Jeff Chou)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Blued vs Stainless, .40 S&W P+?
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:52:09 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems


I am looking at purchasing a semi-auto handgun.  A few of the guns
that are on my list are offered in either Blued or Stainless.  I
realize that theoretically, Stainless guns do not rust as easily.
However, is this really a factor in guns that are Blued?  Has anyone
ever had a problem with rust on a Blued gun?  or Stainless?

The Stainless versions all seem to be more expensive ($30-$100 more
than the Blued).  Is it worth the extra money?  Obviously I want
the gun I purchase to last (a lifetime if possible), so if rusting
is a problem with the Blued, I will shell out the extra for the
Stainless.

The other question I had was, are there any .40 cartridges offered
in P+ or +P+?  If not, will there be in the future?

Thanks in advance for all the info!

Jeff
From: laycak@vaxr.llnl.gov
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Want to Buy a Uberti "Peacemaker" replica
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:56:20 GMT
Organization: LLNL_LIS



I'm interested in purchasing a Uberti Colt "Peacemaker" 1873 replica, 45 l.c.,
7 1/2 inch bbl, steel.  My local gun shop has indicated that one isn't 
available in the local region (S.F Bay area). I think that maybe he hasn't
"networked" enough...so if any of you folks may have any idea as to the
availability of this gun in your area, I'd appreciate some E-Mail or a call
giving information that I may pass on to the shop.

Thanks,

John

John Laycak
(510) 423-2446
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trajectory question
Date: 7 Nov 92 02:09:01 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <27270@dog.ee.lbl.gov> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:
#                                       .....  I was trying to show that
#recoil, if you count your recoil in energy, could be higher for a semi-auto
#in the idealized case.  Several kind souls have pointed out that Hatcher 
#has made this argument, which I have tried to make, much more eloquently
#than I.  Could one of you kind souls point out a reference?

Hatcher's conclusions (found in _Hatcher's Notebook_, page 259) would
indicate that John is correct.  The *energy* in a recoiling semi-auto
will be higher than that of a similarly weighted revolver, due to the
fact that there are 2 systems involved: the slide and the frame.  The
slide essentially recoils alone until encountering the frame.  After
hitting the frame in a highly elastic collision (as one would expect
from a steel on steel collision).  Hatcher confirmed this
experimentally using a recoil dynamometer, first firing in a semi-auto
mode then after locking the bolt in place.


-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Firing w/o chambered shell (was: Psychology in Defense)
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:51:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: fc.BxGGuy.55v
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe) (holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at) wrote:

: I prefer the following method:
: 1)  I load normal ammo in the shotgun, i.e. no spent shells.
: 2)  I rack the slide back (but not forth again).

Why on earth do you do this?  If you can rack the slide without pulling the
trigger, it means the gun is in the "fired" state.  If you can't, pull the
trigger!  I see no need to go through steps 3, 4, 5, and 6 which amount to
nothing more than putting the gun in the same stat it's in now.
From: durr@SSD.intel.com (Jeff Durr)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: moderation
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:01:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: SSD.9211131654.AA04913


Please keep rec.guns just as it is. You are doing a fine job. 

I am the editor of a newletter for my ham radio club. I understand
the hours you put in at a thankless job. Please accept my thanks 
for keeping sanity on the net.

There are always critics. They won't go away. That's just the way
the world is.

Jeff Durr
durr@ssd.intel.com
From: emba-news.uvm.edu!bashiti@sadye.EMBA.UVM.EDU (Abbas J Bashiti)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Class III again
Date: 7 Nov 92 16:06:04 GMT
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility

#From article <9211050819.AA05807@rutgers.edu>, by wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf):

# ##The tax is a one time tax for EACH full auto firearm you purchase.  ...
# #
# #My question is that can I pay the $200 federal tax to the BATF and 
# #get a permit to convert my rifle into a full auto or select fire one?
# #If not, are there any legal ways to do that? Thanks.
# 
# No, not currently. All such legal conversions to full auto were
# outlawed for individuals in May 1986. Several recent Circuit Court
# decisions have suggested that this ban may be untenable under 
# NFA <the NFA was written as registration to facilitate collection
# of a tax, if there is no tax being collected, then there is no 
# authority under the NFA>. However, I don't think you want to be
# a test case. Do you?
# 
     You're of course forgetting legal pre-'86 registered autosears for guns
like HK's (which usually come in complete trigger packs) or AR15's.  These
were serial numbered and registered before '86 as machine guns and can be
used to legally convert semi-autos to full-auto after the class III transfer...

later,
AJ
From: srhineha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Shawn L Rhinehart)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .44 question?
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:57:15 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University


     Hi guys,

     First of all I would like to thank everybody who replied to my "Bought A
Browning" post. I never knew Hi Powers were that popular.

     A friend of mine recently bought a S&W .44 mag (model 629 Classic). We
were at home a couple of weeks ago wasting some ammo and were shooting at an
old catalytic converter (among other things). We shot it with the .44 and
expected a nice big hole, but not so. Needless to say, I was dissappointed. I
was forced to walk to the house and get my .222. It wouldn't even put a hole in
it. Now I'm pissed! The converter is only about 2 1/2 inches thick and it isn't
even solid!

     Question:

     Is there any company that sell .44 magnum shells with full metal jackets?
     I have called all of the local shops and they say that nobody makes it.
     I know you can get the bullets if you reload yourself (Shotgun News).
     Are they on the "cop killer list"?

           *****         What gives?       *****
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A "must" for the reloading bench
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:22:32 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)

DONT PUT IT IN A PILE DONT PUT IT IN A PILE DONT
If you are going to burn powder put it in a line.
when we dispose of "cheese" from mortar rounds we
burn it in a line, corner to corner (they are square)
when we burn powder bags they are put in a line and I
personally use a couple of feet of fuze to start it from.
Last year I did something really stupid in disposing of
black powder that was in the neighborhood of 14 years
old, luckly there was 2 feet of snow on the hood of my
waggoneer. Mustaches & eybrows do grow back. DONT PUT IT
IN A PILE you are not that fast, powder is faster.
As this little voice screemed in the back of my mind
"Hey stupid, you dont get rid of other pyro this way do
you", but the hand was already enroute with the match.
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I by my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: x9999bvj@maple.circa.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Advantages of replacement barrels
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:56:11 GMT
Organization: Center for Instructional and Research Computing Activities


Why do people buy replacement barrels?  What are the biggest things
you are paying for -- extended life, more accuracy, easier care,
lighter weight, etc. etc.?  How much more accuracy do you get?

Thanks,

Brian
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: the most frightening sound
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:26:55 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

#	Based upon my vast experience with owning black powder
#weapons, the most frightening sound is:

     <is there an onomatopoeia for a mini-gun?>
;)
From: JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mailorder Bookstore
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:37:46 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center


   I second Les Johnson's recommendation of the Rutgers Book Center.
I have dealth with this mail order book seller for about ten years and
in all the time I 've dealth with them I have never had a single
complaint.  Sometimes I've even been surprised by their prompt service
and ability to get obscure books.  They also carry titles for many
out of print books.  Four years ago I noticed that they had cataloged
H.C. Gould's 1892 book "Modern American Rifles" at a modest price, so
I ordered it.  Within days I received a fresh copy of the 1946 (or47)
Samworth reprint.  I was quite satisfied.


Michael Gordon