HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jbridson@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:44:22 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.161229.21553@oz.plymouth.edu>, sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
> I think the idea of *one* net.rpg is doomed to failure.  Look at the
> recent controversy between random-generation and point-allocation.  I
> refuse to play random-generation systems, and apparently some folks
> have equally strong but opposite opinions.  I think anything that
> restricts your character concept, such as classes, is stupid, but some
> people love them . . .
> 
> I don't think any single system can appeal to everyone.  You may be
> able to create two or three net.rpgs, though.

I politely disagree... in a way. I don't believe anyone has yet promoted a 
rigid class-based system (only promotion of class-like skill packing 
systems of various degrees of intricacy, like the career path method). So 
now that skills have been established, lets SKIP character generation 
methods, and leave that for indivdual tastes.  Lets work on mechanics, what 
skills mean, and so forth.  To make an analogy, lets write the kernel, then 
offer various shells according to your taste.

So here's my idea of how to create net.rpg:

   1)  Agree on what exactly skills represent.  Are there stats?  If so, 
what are they, are they treated as skills, or combined with skills, or 
affect the purchase of skills?  Etc.

   1&2)  Work out felxible mechanics that allow extrapolation on both ends 
of the scale.

   3)  Begin work on shells.  These would include plug-in character 
generation methods (both random, PA, and career-path), plug-in damage 
system (including simple HP, wounds, hit locations, or whatever else 
someone cares enough about to develop), etc.

   4)  Genre-specific rules, ways to do things, etc.

   5)  Actual source material.

Of course, this is onyl a vague order, the last 3 can be mixed up.  But I 
say we skip the character generation method, and get those emchanics worked 
out while the interest is here.  Then build character generation systems 
that produce characters of this format.

> -- 
>   - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu

       Robert Bridson  (using the acount of JBRIDSON)
From: Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper)
Subject: Re: Board game design problem
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:04:51 GMT

People have said a conrete question would stimulate discussion.  We shall
see.

Here is the question.  It is in the context of the combined Advanced Third
Reich - Rising Sun global war scenario, but probably is general enough that
knowledge of the A3R system isn't necessary.

Design a series of effects which would occur in either Europe or the Pacific
or both had the U.S. been doing poorly in the war and Roosevelt had been
defeated in the 1944 presidential election by a "peace candidate".  The most
extreme result would be U.S. withdrawal from the war in one or both theaters.
Can you provide a list of lesser results which would apply during the final
year of the war, perhaps allowing Germany or Japan to force a stalemate where
they might have lost, or to win where they might have only had a stalemate?

And, as an extra challenge, how would you determine what effects applied.

Post results.  Let's see if there are any game designers watching (this is
not a hypothetical question, by the way - there will be such a rule in Rising
Sun).
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: net.rpg (novell based)
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:47:28 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu


This is a letter forwarded to this newsgroup with the permission of the
author in response to my posting Bruce Odner's FAQ for the old net.rpg
discussion.  Pleas direct all email to the address below, I have no
knowledge of this project.  Thank you.

----------------------------------8<-----------------------------------
                               Cut here


From rg577@csc.albany.edu Mon Nov  9 10:11 PST 1992
To: tdunn@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu
Subject: Re: net.rpg

I am currently working on a game for a smaller net.  It is a multi genre
role playing game that will initially be alpha/beta tested on a Novell
Netware environment.  I believe that this game could serve somewhat as a
model for future net rpg's.  If you think there is some possibility that my
work on Dungeons of D'Magius could be expanded to provide a large network
(ie internet) a way of utilizing rpg's for relaxation from the daily
stresses of life or just for fun then you may want to test out a copy and
see what you think.  Currently I have one offer for a test site and could
definitely use another.  Right now I am writing it for an IBM compatible PC
running Novell Netware, but someone has offered to test it with a
multi-line BBS system so there will be support built for running multiple
copies of it on one computer.  If your interested or have suggestion as to
the construction of this rpg I would gladly welcome them.  Thanks



-- 
I'm a creationist; I refuse to believe that I could have evolved from
man.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg)
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:39:57 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.161229.21553@oz.plymouth.edu> sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
>I think the idea of *one* net.rpg is doomed to failure.  Look at the
>recent controversy between random-generation and point-allocation.  I
>refuse to play random-generation systems, and apparently some folks
>have equally strong but opposite opinions.  I think anything that
>restricts your character concept, such as classes, is stupid, but some
>people love them . . .
>
>I don't think any single system can appeal to everyone.  You may be
>able to create two or three net.rpgs, though.

Though I'm kinda involved with my own system (System One), I think you are
correct in that one system probably won't satisfy everyone.  However, I think
that it's not impossible to implement several possibilities for every rules
system.

For example, in System One, I offer at least three (I haven't looked at it in
about a month) ways of generating the basic stats:  1.  Roll 2d6 on a chart
which gives a number (multiple of five) from 30? to 85? with a roll of 7
(the median) being a 55.  2.  Every stat starts at 55, and you can move points
around from stat to stat, and you can also use points that are used in other
aspects of the character creation process (like for purchasing skills, powers,
etc.) also.  3.  Every stat starts at zero, and you just have more points to
start out with overall.

Though I haven't been able to do it yet, I'm also planning on trying to come up
with an extensive "superpowers" list, which are basically just pre-genned
powers built on the "building block" powers, but allow for easy random
generation (I kinda took a lot of ideas from the Hero  System in coming up with
my powers), so that you have the choice of random, pre-genned powers, or the
ability to design your own.

The only place, I think, that I'm not going to "officially" insert "pick it
yourself" concepts is in the area of mutations, which I think should really
be kinda random, although there really isn't anything stopping someone from
re-rolling or just plain picking their mutations...

I think the best bet isn't to compromise, or to decide one over the other, but
to integrate as many as possible, which will give the game the most appeal
to the greatest number of people possible.

The trick, of course, is to try to get the random stuff on par with the 
"player engineered" stuff...

...Paul


-- 
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
  Paul Clegg, cleggp@aix.rpi.edu.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
            System One RPG designer.   But generally unknown.
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
	<1992Nov9.234056@IASTATE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 17:23:31 GMT

>>>>> On 10 Nov 92 05:40:56 GMT, cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) said:

	Charles> I have always liked the _CyberPunk_ method of
	Charles> classes, where the class adds some benefit, special
	Charles> enhancement, etc., but IN NO WAY restrains the

Well, I've beginning to put some flesh on my thoughts. I hope they do
not conflict too much with yours and others; here you are:

Too start with, you find (select or roll for, GM's choice) your
parents. You need their location in the world, social class, economic
resources, political attitudes, morals. They could also be living
apart, and they could have some genetic defects or diseases.

Then you find the gender of character, the birth date, the education
opportunities and choices. Education path. Job opportunities, job
path. What you learn in the jobs, contacts, friends. A lot of this is
found by the player, guided by the GM of course.

I see seperate, long, sessions for each player, with only him/her and
the GM. I think that time will pay back manyfold later.

When you are finished with the entire 'childhood', you calculate
attributes, starting on a rolled or point-distributed basis, you add
or subtract for events in lifepath. Attributes include morals /
alignment, political standpoints etc. Some of these will be optional
role-playing aids. Religion for example. Unless you play in a world
where gods exist, that is.

	Charles> I am of the opinion that just as one airplane, car,
	Charles> or computer can not fufill the requirements of every
	Charles> situation man can imagine, one game system should not
	Charles> be expected to either.  The game system should be
	Charles> tailored to fit the necessities of the genre.

I think I mentioned this before - I think we should make it somewhat
generic and the specialize on three (?) versions. Fantasy, Future and
the Twenties. 

	Charles> I have mixed views on this subject.  First, if I
	Charles> create a character in such a way as he or she is
	Charles> exactly the way I had imagined, what need is there
	Charles> for advancement?  I have the character I want; I
	Charles> should now be able to role-play to my heart's
	Charles> content.

I imagine players that evolve, but not only in the traditional RPG
way, increasing skill, but also in a development of values,
principles, mental diseases.. :-)

	Charles> I think that if people are serious about the project,
	Charles> then some committee should be formed to oversee and
	Charles> decide or generally organise the game, or a finished
	Charles> product will never be reached by the group; it is

I've appointed myself to be the GM of this 'committee' for the time
being. If people don't like me and my views very much I will leave for
someone else to have a try. 

	Charles> Again, what can I say; I'm only human.

You're not the only one!

-Magnus
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Magnus: Re: d100
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:51:42 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: GE Power Generation

I just realized that what you are talking about with d100 (1d10x10+
1d10) is the same old common mechanic found in billions (well, several)
games worldwide.


For us ignorant Americans (and to save yourself typing that 
formula), you can just say "percentile dice" or "d%", and we'll
understand :-)

Spike
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mar@physics.su.OZ.AU (David Mar)
Subject: 3D map appearance in a computer game
Summary: Any ideas on what it should look like?
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:09:09 GMT

Well, it's good to see the net.rpg resurrected again! But, just so people
remember we design all sorts of games here, here's a problem I've been
thinking about for a while:

Some of you may recall my post a while ago asking for ideas on designing
a standard sort of "galactic conquest" computer game. Well, thanks to
all the helpful suggestions, I now have a reasonable idea of what direction
I'm headed in, and have already done some preliminary coding.

One thorny point however, is the design of a map. Being the stickler for
"realism" I am, I'd like a fully 3-D affair, which tends to be tricky to
display on a computer screen. I've thought of restricting the map display
to show only the immediate neighbourhood of the star system currently being
considered, which would make for a reasonable oblique projection style of
map (with lines parallel to the cartesian axes joining the stars so you
get the feeling of depth). This strikes me as rather tedious - since you
would have to switch planets several times to scan your entire empire.

And, well, that's about as far as I've gone. I'd like my game to cover
on the order of 1000 star systems, and displaying this many on one map of
_any_ sort will be no mean feat. So, ideas anyone?

What I'm really looking for is prospective game-player's opinions of how
a map should look and be accessed in such a game. I'm writing for
Macintosh, so options for pointing and clicking on various bits of the
map are viable, although I'm not sure how one would implement 3-D scroll
bars!

BTW, if anyone is interested in riding this game through development
(ie. alpha/beta testing) drop me a line. It might take a little while to
get to playable stage, but once there I'll be grateful for the help.

David Mar.                                      mar@physics.su.OZ.AU
Astrophysics Department, University of Sydney  NSW  2006, Australia.

ps. I posted here instead of r.g.programmer since I'm only interested in
    the design issues. I can take care of coding myself.
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - "modularity"
Date: 12 Nov 92 05:40:09 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

In article <BxL2xB.HJt@knot.ccs.queensu.ca>, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Lamb) writes:
> As with many respondents I've been working on my own system;  an important
> goal has been to make the system modular (I'm actually trying to apply
> some ideas from software engineering, where modularity of systems is
> important for flexibility and ease of change).

How do you pick the modules to use? Seems to me that determines a lot of the
flavor of the rpg right there. For instance, the following picks tell a lot
about what the system is trying to do.

character background
character quantization
the roll (or not)
simple skill use
opposed skills
interpersonal conflict: combat; repartee; and mystic duels
mystic abilities: magic; miracles; psychic powers.
super abilities
foe quantization
foe lists
adventure design hints

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail.                         -- Baron de Montesquieu
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - Just some thoughts
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:06:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: crd.1992Nov12.220615.8356
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: GE Power Generation

> I'd say that the most important single concept in a role-playing game
> (and I mean game, not just a system) is the _charater_. The kernel
> should desrcibe the most basic and essential concepts that make up a
> character, and the means to expand this basic conceptualization.
> 
> Each living (and I suppose mostly also non-living, for game purposes)
> being is of some Build, Fitness, Consciousness, and Subconsciousness. 
> Let's not fix any ranges yet.
> 
> Why these oddly named properties? And what do they stand for? (And this,
> as someone already mentioned, is one of the most important questions
> regarding character conceptualization.) Well, every person I've met, and
> every animal and other non-persons as well, have been of some size and
> form. That's Build.
> 
> Now the chair I sit on at the moment is of some size, but is a worn out
> and old item. And this, IMO, has nothing to do with its form of
> existence. Also I myself am of no considerable physical prowess although
> I'm rather tall and not even noticeably overweight. It's a distinct
> feature from size and form; I'll call it Fitness.
> 
> My chair doesn't think (or at least it hasn't told me if it does.)
> I, on occasion, do. I've got a cat who sometimes seems to be smarter
> than me, but mostly not. The chair isn't conscious; the cat is quite
> conscious, and me, well, I think that I fall into the more-than-not
> conscious category. I consider the circumstances, odds and oddities, and
> sometimes even consequences, whereas Sirius the cat most obviously does
> not. Levels of consciousness.
> 
> How then does the cat seem to be so smart if he can't think further than
> his whiskers? And what's the nagging sound that keeps telling me to go
> to bed, that I have to get up and go to the faculty in five hours? And
> why, oh why, do I wiggle my toes while harassing the keyboard... React
> to sudden sounds, light intensities, and so forth. Subconscious? Not
> conscious anyways. (To you it may be, but I'll be damned if I ever admit
> I devote 10% of my CPU time to wiggling my toes, goddammit!)
> 
>                Juha Liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
>        University of Helsinki, Dept. of Paranormal Investigations
>            "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer

I like the slant of your ideas, right up to the point where you start
talking about
number-crunching. Yuck - let's not do the math just yet, okay? Otherwise,
the
only comment I'd make: I'd change the name of Subconscious to something
like Instinct, which I think says more of what you're trying to say.

Incidentally, this is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about when I
said
"do it right." Let's do something new, and different, not just rehash the
old 
shit.

Spike
From: torbenm@diku.dk (Torben AEgidius Mogensen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - General comments
Date: 12 Nov 92 11:21:35 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad) writes:

>	Spike> 7) Go with one mechanic. This will affect the learning

>Agreed. Now, my personal view is that 1d100 (1d10 x 10 + 1d10) is a
>very good starting point. Maybe openendedness isn't neccesary either.
>I thought it would be nice, but .. playability.

How is it that som people always think that "mechanics" means "what
dice you roll". I have no trouble with e.g. letting different weapons
use different dice and still call it a single mechanic. The important
part of mechanics is what factors influence your likelyhood to succeed
(or survive) and how you improve your ability over time. Once you have
established these things, THEN choose dice/tables/whatever that
reflect these factors reasonably well without being too cumbersome.
Letting the choice of dice be the "starting point" is not a good
design approach. In my current design I have 4-5 pages about
mechanics, but nowhere are dice or tables mentioned. I wait to decide
this until I have a reasonably stable set of factors that influence
play. I have a few placs where I loosely state things like
"proportional to" or "proportional to the square of", but how that is
goind to be modeled by dice or tables is not decied yet.

	Torben Mogensen (torbenm@diku.dk)
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg(s): 'dating' service
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 17:43:10 GMT

>>>>> On 10 Nov 92 17:34:03 GMT, tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn) said:
	Tim> NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu


	Tim> 1) "I am all things to all people."  We will out-generic
	Tim> Gurps.  We will include both a random alloc and a point
	Tim> gen, include each and every possible dicing mechanic, so
	Tim> as to satisfy all proponenets.  We will probably be
	Tim> crushed under our own inertia and overhead.

	Tim>    This is unworkable in the worst manner, IMPO.

I agree this is one whale of a project, and one not very likely to
succeed, but I think if it did succeed, it could be something else.
All these other projects are exciting, but nothing *really* new. 

If you people want to give this bugger a try and prove Tim wrong, I'm
willing to put my 7-8 years of roleplaying experience and a few hours
every day into it. Can't do anything on my own, though.

As for out-genericing Gurps, I've never played it, but I thought the
genericness of it was as to time-period and setting, not to rules.

-Magnus

PS Not every dicing mechanism. One dicing mechanism. I don't think
dicing is a religious issue like Character Generation is. DS
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Net.rpg:Combat skills & damage
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 00:36:12 GMT

>>>>> On 12 Nov 92 21:45:13 GMT, (Spike) said: 

	Spike> time, however, folks generally seemed to want a "to
	Spike> hit" system that reflects hit location. I suggest that
	Spike> either one or the other be used, not both. Consider: if
	Spike> someone stabs you

I've thought about this myself, and I've come to the conclusion that
I'd prefer a combat system where you don't need any rules, tables,
forms etc. while you fight - iow the combat rules would have to be
simple enough to be remebered by heart.

Anyway - let's discuss combat later! This is a big theme!

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg)
Subject: System One RPG (Net.RPGer's note)
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:19:40 GMT

The generic roleplaying game I designed (System One) is available in raw
ASCII form from two FTP sites--

system1.txt.Z.uu   (uuencoded, compressed)
from quayle.mu.wvnet.edu

or

sys1rpg.zip (new zip format) or sys1rpg_old.zip (old zip format)
from Greyhawk.stanford.edu

It's no where near finished, but it's a rough first draft I put out so I could
get feedback from people.

I've put in some things that I think are "neat";  I posted about this to 
rec.games.frp.misc, but I don't know if the people here pay attention "over
there"...

Anyway, any input I have into Net.RPG will probably draw upon ideas I put into
my System One game, so I thought people might be interested in obtaining a
copy to peruse for ideas...

...Paul


-- 
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
  Paul Clegg, cleggp@aix.rpi.edu.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
            System One RPG designer.   But generally unknown.
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
From: censwm@cend3c7.caledonia.hw.ac.uk (Stuart W Munn)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: XGOLF
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:02:14 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

I am trying to find source for XGOLF the archives, that I have loaded it from are incomplete can any one help?

=========================================================================
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Heriot-Watt University                  "The sky is BLACK . . .
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031 451-3265
031 451-3261 FAX                        God may have a Harley . . .
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