HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tiger@vipunen.hut.fi (Karl R. Tigerstedt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .308 for 1000 yd. Matches
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:54:08 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology

In article <1992Jul22.212546.27830@informix.com> infmx!gregm@uunet.UU.NET (Greg Mitchell) writes:

#One more thing.  In aerodynamic flight there is a phenomenon known as
#flutter ( aeroelasticsomethingorother ).  Flutter causes violent
#vibrations on the control members of an airplane.  I believe that
#flutter occurs in a range of speed rather than some simple
#upper limit.  The interesting thing about flutter ( besides it
#ripping the wings off your airplane ) is that it occurs at true
#airspeed rather than indicated airspeed.  As the air gets thinner
#the airplane needs to go faster through the air ( true airspeed )
#to generate the forces required to stay flying, but the airspeed
#indicator ( indicated airspeed ) shows the same speeds at any
#altitude because it also works by the same forces that allow 
#the wings to keep the airplane in the air.  So I wonder if bullets
#might experience flutter, causing their flight path to be destablized.
#If they do then it might be that at higher altitudes the reduced air
#friction is allowing the bullet's true airspeed to stay above the
#envelope for flutter ( rather than keeping it out of the
#trans-sonic envelope ) until the bullet has passed through the target.
#
#I wonder if there isn't more to bullet destablization than crossing
#through the trans-sonic. 
#
#
#     Greg Mitchell               gregm@informix.com

    A very distinct difference between aircraft and bullet flight is the fact
that the bulllet is in strong axial spin due to the rifling in the barrel.
   As you all probably know, the spin is the most important stabilizing factor
of the bullet. When the spin decreases, the bullet starts to wobble and flutter
and the flight path becomes inaccurate.



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have only come here seeking knowledge.
 Things they would not teach me of in college"    - The Police
*** Karl Tigerstedt , email tiger@vipunen.hut.fi ***
From: dstine@cisco.com (David S.A. Stine)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: quiet rounds
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:26:39 GMT
Organization: BitBashers, Ltd.

In article <59036@mimsy.umd.edu> barker@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (James Barker) writes:
#
#Does anyone know if there is a round quieter than .22LR? About 5 years ago
#at a range I was at, a guy was shooting a rifle that made VERY little noise
#(in fact, the noise it made was more like a "zing"). The casings were
#VERY small - so small in fact that I wondered at first what they were.
#Yet, the projectile was either big enough, or fast enough, where at 50
#yards, the guy was shooting small branches off trees behind his target
#(he was trying to zero in a scope he had bought).
#

Sounds like CB caps.

#[MODERATOR: Go check out some .22 shorts or, even more fun, some CB caps.
#But please don't go hunting varmints with 'em, I think the caps are really
#only good for knocking little branches off the occasional tree, as you
#observed....]

Maybe, but I certainly used them as a kid to rid Mom's garden of pests which
decided to eat veggies before we could pick 'em. Living in NJ meant that you
couldn't use a .22 for pest control unless you were on a farm. OK, this didn't
bother me. I used a .22 Daisy air rifle for the small stuff (chipmunks,
squirrels) and .22 CB's for racoons, possum, 'chucks and rabbits.

You have to get a) close and b) be sure of your aim. I would drop everything I
needed to, first shot, every time. Get a shot lined up at the base of the
head, from a rear-quartering angle. Max range was about 15 meters. Noise was
nil. Mom was satisfied with the results. ;-)

btw: in the "waste not, want not" category: 'coons and 'chucks taste
_horrible_. Squirrel is OK if marinated for a day (tough otherwise) and rabbit
is pretty good.

dsa
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: H.R. 2922
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:58:16 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <1992Jul30.205049.26221@cbnews.cb.att.com>, lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani) writes:
|> In article <9207282019.AA25006@gtephx.com> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
|> #
|> #In article <1992Jul25.223403.27105@cbnews.cb.att.com>, lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani) writes:
|> #> The tax on 1000 rounds of 200 grain bullets would be nearly $21.50
|> #> for primary lead and nearly $10.75 on secondary lead.  Stock up now.
|> #
|> #How does one tell if bullets have primary or secondary lead?
|> 
|> The tax would be imposed on smelters of lead, who would pass their price
|> increases to their customers.

The end result of this legislation, if enacted, will be to drive lead smelters
overseas.

Industry specific taxes wipe out or damage specific industries.

Followups to talk.politics.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
Start your day with a little civil disobedience.  Call BATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS or
1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and government employees
that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.
From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: NATIONAL BLACK RIFLEMEN
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:10:20 GMT
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.

Ray,

The National Black Riflemen Association is at:

	National Black Riflemen Association
	Gikuyu Kenyatta Muhammad
	10219 Deer Hollow Drive
	Dallas, TX  75249
	214-283-6099
	214-283-6199
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
"I just love the smell of gunpowder." -- Bugs Bunny
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Unusual GLOCK ejection method
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:38:23 GMT
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.


I was at the range this weekend and saw something interesting.
The range officer had a GLOCK 21 (.45), and was doing some
shooting. (Wouldn't it be great to have a job where you could
shoot every day for free!). Anyway, He was performing the following
proceedure:

 1) Place Magazine in gun.

 2) Chamber round.

 3) Remove Magazine.

 4) Fire gun with hand cupped under the magazine well.

 5) Take empty case which was ejected down the magazine well
    into his cupped hand, and place it into the cartridge box.

 6) goto number 1

I asked him about it, and he said that the GLOCKs are the only
gun he knows of, which will eject through the magazine well.
I forgot to ask if the cases were hot on the hand coming out.
This whole proceedure seemed slightly dangerous. If a case ever
ruptured all of the energy, and some of the brass could be directed
down the mag well, and into his hand. 

Any comments?

                                Bill Vojak
                                Bill_Vojak@stortek.com
                                NRA, ILA, CFC

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: I do NOT recommend anybody attempt this, nor do I accept
any responsibility for any injuries caused if you try this, even if
you have a note from your Mommy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Winchester 97's
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:01:33 GMT
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY.

In article <1992Jul28.195621.29603@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
#Hi folks,
#
#I was wondering if any of you have any idea of what Winchester Model 97's
#and Model 12's sell for these days.
#
#I'm also wondering if they could possibly be considered as an Evil(tm)
#assault weapon since they have Evil(tm) bayonet lugs?
#
#The 97's occupy one of those 'special' places in my heart and I would not
#mind picking one up if I can find one and it is affordable.
#

Century International Arms, Inc.
PO Box 714
Dept C
St. Albans, Vermont 05478

(802)527-1252    FAX (802)527-0470   Orders 1-800-258-8879   Visa & MC + 2%

Winchester Model M97 Trench Shotgun, 12 Ga.
Same as M97 Riot Gun except includes has handguard  w/ bayonet lug
20" cylinder bore
SG203	Condition Good (Stock Chips)................................ $ 425.
	    "      "   (Stock chips, broken or missing buttplate/
						       buttstock)... $ 375.

Winchester Model M97 Riot Shotgun, 12 ga.
Takedown or solid frame.  Plain pistol grip stock, grooved slide handle,
20" cylinder bore
SG202	Condition Good (Stock chips)................................ $ 325.
	    "      "   (Broken or missing buttplate/buttstock)...... $ 275.

Winchester Model 12 Riot Shotgun, 12 ga.
Slide action, takedown, hammerless, 20" cylinder bore, blued finish and
walnut stock.
SG102   Condition good.............................................. $ 170.
SG102A  Condition good (Cracked stocks)
	Missing minor parts......................................... $ 150.


I bought the Model 12 and while I'd argue with the "blued finish" comment
(there ain't much) it's in pretty good shape.  For $170 I don't think you can
beat it.  You can get it with a "collectors" FFL by the way.

I know what you mean about a "special place."  If I can ever find me a
Winchester Model '92 SRC in 44-40, cheap enough....

Take care,

Rog
From: lizard@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu (Tom Linsley)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Talkin' trash (was Re: revolver handling)
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:10:00 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas System CHPC


In article <1992Jul28.143520.23073@chpc.utexas.edu> lizard@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu (Tom Linsley) writes in reply to an article by Ted Johnson::
   ...
 >The explosion of rounds not in line with the barrel will merely blow the
 >gun apart, posing relatively little risk to firefighters and neighbours.

In article <64559@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird) writes:
# 
# Whatever gave you this idea?  Why should they "blow the gun apart", for
# heaven's sake?  They'll just *shoot*, but out the chamber mouth instead
# of into the barrel, and thus with considerably less "muzzle" velocity.

And rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson) writes:

#What?  I don't think that the bullet will care if there's a barrel in front
#of it or not, the only loss from discharging a round from the second cylinder
#would be accuracy.  (which doesn't much matter in this situation!)


''OIMOI.  ("Woe is me.")

Well, Gus, I didn't think this one up myself.  I read it some years back in
some piece discussing the fire safety aspects of guns and reloading, and, I'm
ashamed to say, gave it not the slightest moment of critical thought.  It
seemed like a good idea at the time, and I guess I assumed that the frontstrap
and barrel would present enough interference with the path of bullets in the
nonaligned chambers to prevent their exit.

Last evening I took a hard look at a Model 57 and a Model 17, and only the
chamber directly below the barrel is truly protected;  indeed, the other four
chambers are short-barrelled smoothbores, as has been pointed out.  Bullets
in some of these chambers may be deflected by the front parts of the gun,
but they will surely escape into the neighbourhood.

Well, as Victor Buono said in a late-sixties episode of "Perry Mason",
"I repudiate myself."  Thanks to Gus and Rob for taking exception to this
fallacious notion, and my apologies to the group for increasing the
noise-to-signal ratio.

Good thing old Socrates ain't around roaming the streets of Austin, for
surely he would observe that "oietai sophos einai, all'ouk estin".

Best regards,

Tom

-- 
Tom Linsley              tom@sparta.bus.utexas.edu  :  NRA  ILA  TSRA
College of Business Administration Computer Center  :  NFA     CCRKBA
The University of Texas, Austin, Texas 78712   USA  :  (512) 471-5446
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Laser range finder
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:00:31 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Jul28.082320.25435@news.uit.no>, by steffen@stud.cs.uit.no (Steffen Baeroe):
# In article <9207270007.AA00241@leland.Stanford.EDU>, ami@leland.Stanford.EDU (Amitava Biswas) writes:
# |> 
# |> Hello, I'm new to this group so please excuse my ignorance. I'm looking for
# |> information (or where to find information) on a laser range finder for 
# |> archery. I know this is not really gun-related, but I thought this readership
# |> might be able to help me out - sorry if it's too off-topic.
# |> 
# |> 		[MODERATOR:  Looks okay to me...  actually, I haven't
# |> 		 seen anything like this for archers, and it sounds like
# |> 		 an interesting engineering project to try and adapt a
# |> 		 mount.   Sure would help in *practice* too, so one 
# |> 		 could study one's follow through... well, I distract... ]
# |> 
# |> I'd like to find out what sorts of devices exist if any that enable a
# |> marksman(woman) to measure distace to target, short of actually getting a 
# |> ruler out. Are there laser devices that do this? Can you tell me what their
# |> accuracy is, and what sorts of ranges they can measure (eg 110-300 yds?).
# |> Who makes them, can they be used to measure distances to a moving target
# |> (eg deer), can they measure range in real time, are they reflectable, etc.
# |> Are they available with a digital readout?
# |> 
# |> Finally, are such devices usually gun-mounted, or handheld, or in any case
# |> do you think it would be possible to modify one for mounting on a compound
# |> bow?
# |> 
# |> I'll follow the group for a few weeks, so feel free to reply here, but I
# |> would prefer it if you would respond directly to me at
# |> 
# |> 	ami@leland.stanford.edu
# |> 
# |> Thanks in advance!
# |> 
# |> Ami
# 
# 
# I have seen a laser range finder put ON TOP of a scope mounted on a
# Mauser 86/66 sniper rifle. I don't know anything about it exept 
# that is was aprox. H 3-4 cm , L 20-25 cm , W 5-7 cm.
#

If it doesn't absolutely, positively have to be a laser, Gander
Mountain had several in their catalog.  I have never used one,
except in cameras ;-{).  They had short and long (1000 yds.)
ones, I don't know about their accuracy though ;-{). 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Neat baby name ...
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:33:33 GMT
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC

In <11358@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:


#In article <16134.9207201957@fishn.chpc.org>, rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
## My IPSC practice partner and his wife had their first kid Sunday.
## 
## Its name is William Cooper <lastname_here#.
## 

#I have a friend with a neat address: 1911 Cooper Drive.  (Now, if
#only it were an apartment complex, and he was in building A, apartment
#1...)

A couple of miles from here is 
"Comstock Street".


-- 
Greg Booth BSc                        | Diligentia-Vis-Celeritas
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS    |  	Incolumitas
Motorola Mobile Data Division         | 
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com cgb003@email.comm.mot.com
From: boardman%cancer.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Bob Boardman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need info on W. Scott shotgun
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:51:05 GMT
Organization: UNM Cancer Center

In article <9207201850.AA27542@itc700.cs.itc.hp.com>, fleck@itc7003.cs.itc.hp.com (Dave Fleck) writes:
#
#I have come across a W. Scott Imperial Damascus Shotgun.  I am trying to 
#find out if it would have any value.
#
#Side plate says:  W. Scott
#		  Belgium
#
#On the top it has:  Imperial Damascus
#
#The underside of the barrel has the different stamps including what looks
#like the royal stamp.  It says 12 G(auge)  and it has the number 18.2
#
#It is a side-by-side.
#
#If anyone can give me some info on this, I remember a while back someone
#had a similiar gun.
#
#The info I have had is this is un-shotable and I believe them, but it would
#be a nice collector piece.
#
#Thanks in advance....
#
#Dave
#
	I would also be interested in any information on "W. Scott" shotguns-
  I have an old double barrel (side-by-side) percussion cap shotgun that has
  been handed down in my family for several generations - It has "W. Scott"
  on the sideplate and "London Fine Twist" on top of the barrels.  It appears
  to be around a 10 guage, since a 12 ga. shell will drop right down the
  barrel, rim and all.  I haven't ever seen a reference to "W. Scott" until
  I read this posting!

  -Bob

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
|**I _AM_ a member of a well-regulated militia - self-regulated, that is!!!!**|
| Bob Boardman,Albuquerque,New Mexico - NRA LIFE, NMSSA, Zia Rifle&Pistol Club|
|        internet:boardman@cancer.unm.edu    bitnet:BOARDMAN@UNMB             |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: E & L Brass Catchers (followup)
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:38:27 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

A while ago, I posted a query about the advisability of getting an E & L
brass catcher for my Mini-14. Several people responded, saying they worked
quite well (though none of them used the catcher on a Mini-14). The one
person who used the catcher on his Mini-14 said it worked, but that the
impact from the cases was really tearing up the brass catcher.

I went ahead and bought one. Last Saturday, I put about 200 rounds through
ol Sarah (named in honor of you-know-who). To my pleasant surprise, the
catcher worked flawlessly. There were no jams, and the brass was no more
damaged than usual (those of you who own a Mini 14 know what I mean). The
inside of the plastic catcher had a lot of little stipples in it from the
impact of the cases, but nothing approaching structural damage.

Of course it's something of a bother to have to attach a basket to the side
of your gun before you begin shooting, and empty it every 20-30 rounds--but
this is more than compensated for by the pleasure of not having to chase
the ***##**# brass all over the county. In fact, the E & L isn't that much
of a bother to attach and detach--there's two plastic arms that come over
the top of the receiver, and clip onto it. To get the box off, you just
spring the arms up, and it drops off. You can't clear the rifle with box in
place, however.

All in all, well worth the money.


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: benj@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (ben.e.jones)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: rebore
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:36:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T


      fast question....having big discussion on what would
      be the cost to have a smith rebore a 38 s/w cylinder
      to a 38 sp ....Many Thanks for any info on even ball
      park figures....
........BJ
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: British gun laws circa 1960
Date: 23 Jul 92 00:42:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: sserve.1992Jul22.225434.350
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

prichard@devon.larc.nasa.gov writes:

#I have a book by an English dude who sailed around the world sometime
#around 1960.  at one point, he mentions checking his Webley .45 since
#the upcoming port had a bad reputation.  

#1) would this handgun (presumably a revolver) been legal to posess in
#   the British isles, and

Given the appropriate licence, yes.

#2) might this an American cartridge such as .45 Colt or .45 ACP?  .45
#   seems a bit big for an old British revolver.

In the early part of this century the standard British service cartridge
was the .455 Webley.  This was a bit less powerful than the .45 ACP.
I believe that in the US a number of the old Webley revolvers were
rechambered for the .45 Auto Rim.  This wasn't the biggest cartridge
used, though  -  there were earlier Webley service revolvers chambered
for a .476 cartridge, and I've seen pictures of a revolver chambered for
a short .577 round!

Geoff Miller (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)  |   Don't steal.  The government
Computer Centre                     |   hates competition.
Australian Defence Force Academy    |   (via Jeff Cooper)
From: jackson@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Dwight Jackson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Shooting At Tires/Target Range...
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:38:06 GMT


On Thursday the 23rd, a 10 year-old boy was shot dead while running to get help
for his friend who had already been injured by another stray bullet.  The two
boys were playing hide-and-seek with others at "Camp Tee Pee Pole", when they
were hit by bullets fired from across the creek.

The injured boy was hit behind the right shoulder, the bullet passing through to
the lung puncturing it, also breaking two ribs and severing nerves in his right
arm.  No data on how the other boy died.

The shots were fired from another camper across the lake/creek (?) from the
camp, and had no affiliation with the camp.  He was target shooting, and was
probably "using" the lake as a backstop.  When told of the consequences of his
actions, he was "devastated".  RCMP will not be laying charges.  The firearm
was a .22LR rifle.

This incedent took place about 180km NW of Calgary here.

The point of all of this is the recent thread of shooting in a dump with tires
as a backstop.  Is it REALY safe?  BE ABSOLUTELY SURE!!!

...dwight

(remember what's-his-name who said: Let's be careful out there!)
From: megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Long Range Fire
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:24:37 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

#>>>> On 30 Jul 92 14:36:59 GMT, dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly) said:

Cable> A friend and I were discussing long range sniper fire and both of
Cable> us were pretty ignorant of it. We came up with a few questions I wanted
Cable> to ask a forum of experts. These were:

Cable> 1) What's the longest ranged sniper rifle in the world today?

Cable> 2) What is it's maximum effective range?

Cable> 3) What is the longest recorded sniper kill in history?

Cable> If anyone could come up with an answer to any of these, I would be
Cable> most grateful. Thanks in advance.

This is definitely not verified, but I have heard it from several
sources (as if that meant anything).

1)  50 Caliber

2)  at least a mile

3)  in Desert Storm an Iraqi tank guy was shot while sticking his head
	up out of his tank from about a mile away.

Kinda spooky when you could be dead several seconds before you heard
the shot that killed you.

-- 
Dion Hollenbeck       UUCP: {uunet, ucsd, sun}!megatek!hollen
                      INTERNET:            hollen@megatek.com
Megatek Corporation  9645 Scranton Rd.  San Diego, Ca.  92121