From: itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken)
Subject: Re: animals in research.
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:25:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.033710.470@halfab.ka.sub.org> me@halfab.ka.sub.org (Udo_Meyer) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.214528.6725@samba.oit.unc.edu> itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg  
>Popken) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov9.235142.321@halfab.ka.sub.org> me@halfab.ka.sub.org   
>(Udo_Meyer) writes:
>> >In article <1992Nov8.210634.755@halfab.ka.sub.org> me@halfab.ka.sub.org   
>> >(Udo_Meyer) writes:
>> >> 
>> >> Animals died without any reason again. And many humans died also. :-(
>> >> 
>> >Oh Oh. Bad news again. Just seen a TV-report about a new scandal
>...
>
>> What medical treatments have your undergone in your life?  They seemed to
>> have worked.(I won't install a sarcastic remark here. Please fill in your
>> own.)
>Hot tea and a bed are the only treatments I trusted the last 20 years.
>And as I can see with my brother in law. If you need help,
>if you really need it, then after visiting 10 or more doctors and
>clinics and after eating medicine like bonbons they are not able
>to help you because they do not know the reason of the problem and
>therefor not how to help you! Really, they see that there is something
>getting wrong but they do not have any idea :-(((((

I don't know what the problem with your brother-in-law is nor what it has
to do with this conversation.  But, doctors are not gods (though some of
them like tothink they are.). You cannot expect them to be able to cure
everone of everything.  I'm sure your brothers case is very difficult to
diagnose.  Don't blame that on medical research.


In regard to your question asking if researchers are the only one capable
of determining that animal research is the best method.  
No they are not the only ones but there are very few outside the sciences
that can make a well informed decision on the matter.
A lawyer isn't the only one that can give legal advice.  But, when it
comes to legal matters I value the opinion of a qualified lawyer (possible
oxymoron) than a layman.

>The company, precise its managers which sold the bad medicine are suited
>in the USA because they withheld the information that their medicine
>killed people. The medicine was forbidden in Great Britain immediately
>after the controling authority spoke with the company because they got a hint
>from an independant observer. In Germany you got this medicine much longer.
>The time period we are speaking of is not some days, it is about a decade!
>But the bad guys are not always the people in research.
>They had detected that there is a problem.
>Money, money, money, money ....
>Remember also: illicit medicine is still sold to the 3rd world countries!?


It sound like the problem is in the companies or in the laws of these
countries.  Not in the validity of animal research.
>> Do you have any idea of the hundreds of thousands of times that animals
>> research predicted correctly the outcome of human studies?
>Yes, hundreds of thousands of animals suffered and died.
>And it makes me sad because (2nd hand) information tells that most of them
>suffer unnecessary. Many tests and the quantity of tests are not necessary.

How do you determine this? Do you always take other peoples word for it?

>
>> How do you propose we develope new treatments for patients?
>Allright. You got very useful sensors and systems to look into patients
>without harming them. You got CAD-Systems and supercomputers.
>You got test methods with cell cultures. And another (2nd hand) info
>told that some plants seem to react better and more reliable than animals,
>in connection with heart diseases!?!

Yes these are all wonderful methods and have helped tremendously in
research and even in reducing the nmber of animals needed.  But, it is
impossible with present day technology to simulate the entire body in a
computer.  If we had enough information to simulat a body we wouldn't need
to do any more research because we would already have all the answers.


i                                                   Greg Popken
>
>Udo.

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The opinions expressed here are my own.  **   Knowledge goes on forever! 
Which is to say they belong to me.       **   Spelling stops at the 
And these opinions, which belong to me,  **   end of the page.
are mine.                                *******************************