From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Torture in Israel (was Re: The Hadith about...)
Organization: Somewhere East or Somewhere West
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 19:59:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.194400.3860@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
|> [much deleted]

In response to Waleed's accusations of torture in Israel I post the
same reply which I mailed to Waleed a few months back:

[start of reply]

Waleed,

While I do support Israel with great earnestness, I never have claimed
that all that Israel does is correct. If what Shavit writes about the
brutal treatment of the Palestinian youth by the Israelis is true,
then I think such policy must be changed.  There is certainly no
justification for such treatment of Arab youth - again if what Shavit
writes is accurate.

The disturbing thing to me is how closely the treatment described by
Shavit is to the treatment afforded to Jewish revolutionaries under
the Brittish occupation. These Jewish youth were tortured, beaten and
horribly degraded all because of their struggle for independence from
the British.

The thing is that these very same youth who saw this Brittish
treatment of Prisoners are the people who are now running the country.
I find it *extremely* hard to believe that these very same
revolutionaries, who so despised the Brittish way of treating
prisoners, would now assume the place of their own tormentors.  My
point is that such horrible treatment of Palestinian youth is almost
undoubtedly *not* a policy of the Israeli government.

To see the Jewish and Israeli appreciation for life, you must only
look at the public uproar in Israel over the possibility of death
camps in Bosnia-Hercegovina. The Holocaust taught the Jews a very
brutal lesson about the importance of human life.  The Jews in Israel
feel this lesson too - perhaps more than any other people in the
world. I just can not accept the fact that such abuse of prisoners is
an Israeli policy.

Of course, I do not deny that such abuse does occur. There are many
levels of authority in Israel. Many things done at the lower levels
are not known of by the leaders at the higher levels of authority.
Unfortunately, among the Jews, as among the gentiles, there are those
whom we could call sadists - people who actually enjoy inflicting
suffering upon others.

It is conceivable that some of these may be in these prisons of which
Shavit talks. It may be that there are some Israelis (but very very
few) who have not learned the lesson hitory has taught my people. It
is these people who perpetrate the actions of which the article talks.
(In America too, as in most countries, what may go on in prisons is
not always know to those authorities which are outside of the
prisons.) This does not excuse such attrocities. This just goes to
show that they are not perpetrated by the Israeli government or by the
Israeli people, but by a few sadists who have happened to put
themselves in a position where they are able to do such terrible
things without the knowledge of their superiors.

Again though, this does not excuse anything. If indeed what Shavit
talks about in his article is true, then the Israeli authorities
should set up inquiries to get to the bottom of these human rights
offenses. If this is true, then Shavit and others like him must make
this known to the Israeli people and government. Those very few who
may be doing these horrible things must be stopped. If what Shavit
says is true then it will be stopped once the Israeli people and
government find out.

Waleed, I know many Jews and many Israeli Jews. I know some Jews who
are zealous Zionists and I know other Jews who don't give two shits
worth about their people or heritage. I know many Jews who would die
for Israel and I know some who would not. But I do not know a *single*
Jew, not in Israel and not in the U.S., who would not be outraged by
the very thought that such attrocities can be committed by the Jewish
people.

Israel is not, as you call her a "brutal occupier". Israel is a small
country in which lives a small people which has seen more bad from the
world than could even humanly be imaginable. The Jews are a kind and
peaceful people - we are so by our heritage and by our religion. In
Israel we have kind and peaceful people who are merely trying to
insure their survival. These are not the people who could committ wuch
heinous acts of which Shavit speaks.

Unfortunately, even among the Jews there are some very few demented
ones who can. And believe me, when such individuals reveal themselves
for who they are, they are dealt with. Unfortunately, they are often
not dealt with fast enough.

[end of reply]

Harry.