HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Membership Privileges
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 18:37:17 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  Hal wrote:

> Because of this, I don't see a problem with haveing a non-member
> autocrat.  The Seneschal should be sufficiently available to get
> things signed when they need to be signed.

You may be mis-construing the problem.  The corporation's concern is that
the person who is running the event, who is making organizational
decisions, and who has the authority to do things like eject someone from
the event or close down the event entirely, who is legally responsible for
the event and for ensuring that SCA rules are followed, and therefore who
is the obvious target for anyone who sues the Society over something that
happened at the event, be covered by the liability insurance.  I strongly
doubt that under our current system an insurance company would cover
someone who was temporarily adopting a transferrable membership.

It is not entirely clear that the autocrat would only be risking his own
hide by not having liability insurance: In a recent conversation, Ms.
Elizabeth Johnson, the Chairman of the Board, opined that if a suit named a
non-member as the primary defendant and the corporation as the secondary
defendant, the insurance company would decline to get involved.  The
corporation would probably win the suit, but only after thousands of
dollars in legal costs.  (Tibor has pointed out that the corporation has
other legal agents who are not members; I suspect they are all protected by
their own insurance or by mundane law.)

We could accomplish the corporation's goal in several ways:

1) Require autocrats to be members.
2) Allow the sponsoring branch to purchase temporary liability coverage for
   the autocrat. 
3) Extend the liability insurance to all autocrats, a priori.

Whether the second and third options are possible depends on the insurance
company, but they are certainly worth investigating.  Note that the first
approach, which we use now, imposes costs on individuals who are already
contributing time, money, and effort; the second option taxes the entire
event to cover common expenses; the third option taxes the entire Society
to cover common expenses.  I asked Ms. Johnson about the third possibilty
in more general terms, and she was not sure how the insurance company would
re-act to the proposal.  Apparently, the Board never considered that
possibility.  The same sorts of possibilities exist for any of the
membership-requirement questions, and I believe they should be fully
investigated before any changes are made.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Rules of War
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 19:17:41 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  

Alan Fairfax asked for references on the rules of war in period.  In the
bibliography to a draft of Peregrine Payne's forthcoming Compleat
Anachronist on Period Tournaments, I find the following:

Honore' Bonet, "The Tree of Battles" tr. G. W. Copeland, Cambridge: Harvard
University Press, 1949.

Ramon Llull, "Book of the order of Chivalry", translated and re-printed in
David Herlihy, "The History of Feudalism", New York: Harper and Row, 1970. 


These are probably the two most influential period books of chivalry.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Term limits for barons
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:31:42 GMT

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!

>Alan Fairfax wrote:

>> While I have heard that those in the distant kingdoms that sprung from
>> Atenveldt regularly change barons, in the Middle (and, it appears, the
>> East), individual barons and baronesses are an important part of the life
>> of the barony.

>All three of you are generalizing based on local experience.  Alan: Are you 
>sure that the baron/esses are so important in _all_ Midrealm baronies?  There 
>are certainly parts of the SCA where baron/esses play very little role in the 
>SCA lives of their subjects.  Dawyd: The vice-regency in Ostgardr may be 
>"stable and harmless", but that it far from characteristic of all baron/esses.
>Many have been actively damaging to the group, engaging in the worst sort of 
>personal politics and abuses of power.

	Let me put it this way.  I have been in or talked with members of eight
of the seventeen Midrealm baronies, and in eight I either saw or was told of
such esteem for the ruling baron/baroness that it was clear that the populace 
would be far more angry than gratified if they were told to find someone new.
I cannot guarantee that this is true for every single barony in the Midrealm,
but it is true for at least half--a significant enough percentage.
	Significantly, one of the barons who was spoken of with the greatest
respect by the people of his group is infamous throughout the Midrealm--enough
so that I heard literally no good word about him from anyone before talking to
the people from his barony.  Despite this, they are apparently happy with him.

>The hardest thing about this issue, like so many that come before the
>Board, is looking beyond your local experiences to evaluate the SCA as a
>whole.

	That is exactly why term limits are a terrible idea.  The people are
the ones who have to live with the baron/ess, and as long as they are happy
there is no reason to force them to change.

		Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald
		Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
		Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
		atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		**Magnitudo Vocis**
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Mistakes & Rumors
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:28:02 GMT

trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes:

>The mention of Jaelle's project being 20 volumes was on the SCAHRLDS mailing
>list, not the Rialto. 

>(Unfortunately I don't remember who the "miscreant" was who said it...)

  One of the advantages of this system is that all communication can be
preserved.  The gentle who said it (who I am keeping anonymous) is no miscreant
and in fact thought that he/she (no clues!) was directly quoting a statement of
Jaelle's.  It was, in fact, an understandable error.
  Is there anything that can be done about such misquotes?  Episodes such as 
these can be damaging (As we all know), and more so when the person being 
misquoted has no way to respond.  It seems that some extra protection is needed
but hopefully we can stop short of anything too drastic.

Alan Terlep				        "Please don't shoot us--
Oakland University, Rochester, MI	         we're trying to help."
atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		     --Real public service announcement
Rushing in where angels fear to tread.		    for the Serbian Red Cross
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Linen and wool
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:31:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1992Oct1.212403.7972@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:

>You tend to get tow from the ends of pieces of flax when you're
>spinning.  The better you get at spinning the stuff--the less you
>generate in the way of knots of tow.
	Actually, tradtionally tow is what is left in the hackles. It can
be carded and spun into a fuzzier yarn than line flax (the good stuff). When
you see linen yarn it should specify line or tow and wet or dry spun (they
don't bother labelling lace thread this way - it's obvious). If there is tow
left in the strick of line, it wasn't hackled sufficiently. If you are spinning
flax roving, it has been cut into short lengths, effectivly the whole thing is
tow, and you do get tangled bits which you have to pick out as you go.
	-Ilaine


-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	Before you can spin the wool, you need to comb it.
                   | 	Use the combs with the 5 rows of 6" razor sharp spikes.
ilaine@panix.com   |    Don't drink and comb - trust me on this.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Waivers
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 17:42:11 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  Justin wrote:

> -- The waiver be attached to a membership card, as it has been, and comes
>    implicitly with a membership. Thus, any fighter having a valid
>    membership is dealt with.
> -- *And* any fighter who is *not* a member can get a waiver card, by paying
>    an appropriate processing charge. It isn't reasonable that waivers
>    be free, since there is *some* overhead involved. On the other hand,
>    it shouldn't cost more than a buck or two for processing the thing.
>    (If it costs more than that, we've got gross incompetence to worry
>    about.)
> 
> Can anyone come up with an argument *against* this proposal, that
> doesn't involve moralizing "you should be supporting the Corporation"
> arguments?

I informally suggested such a system to the Chairman of the Board in a
conversation last week; her concerns were first that membership dollars not
be used to subsidize activities of non-members (apparently a major concern
on the Board at the moment), and second that we not create an entire new
bureaucracy or dump a new workload on the corporate office.  I believe that
your proposal addresses both concerns adequately, Justin: I strongly
recommend that you write it up in detail and send it to the Board.

Someone pointed out that checking membership for fighters would be an
additional burden on the list officers.  I think not: Currently, a fighter
has to show his authorization card in order to fight; he would simply have
to show his membership card, too.  He has to do that now anyway, or sign a
separate waiver, so it would not create new work, and would eliminate some
existing work.  There are lots of good reasons to oppose membership
requirements for fighting, but this is not one of them.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Jousting in Stockholm
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:37:17 GMT
Reply-To: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

Unto William and the good folk of the Rialto does Balderik send
his greetings.

I well remember the constant repetition of 'O-Vaga...Attack!!'.

On the day that I was in attendance, the Swedish team had an equal
number of men and women, while the Italian team was all male.
I did notice that the Swedish team seemed to have more problems
with their horses balking at the starting lines.  Since each pass
was a race against a member from the opposing team, this was 
probably a major factor the Italian victory.  Also, I noticed that
the 'tabards' (don't know the proper term) worn by the Swedish team's
horses were very long, and looked as if they might have encumbered
the horses on the tight corners.  It appeared that one older looking
member of the Swedish team (the term 'grizzled veteran' comes to
mind) was known to the audience since they always cheered especially
loudly for him.  I thought this was really neat.  Although there
were things I might have liked to see done differently, I found the
entire spectacle very enjoyable (and Visby was a tough act to follow).
I can certainly understand why they would opt for the fake armour.


Cheers,
Balderik
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: name from the netherlands???
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 16:12:29 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  Merfyn asked:

> Any help at all with finding the name  "Severina Lundgren" in period   
> would be appreciated.

There were at least two Sts. Severinus (The Penguin Dictionary of Saints),
so that name and its feminine Severina are quite reasonable for any part of
Christendom.  "Lundgren" looks Swedish to me; perhaps one of our Swedish
heralds can help?

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Subject: Re: Historical Survey Question
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 11:33:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1a03h6INNt3i@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:

>There been a lot of discussion lately about the recent survey
>questionaire on membership issues.  A couple of people have briefly
>remarked on the fact that, out of over 22,000 members, only about 300
>chose to respond.  My own opinion is it says more about how the survey
>was distributed, and in what form, than the interest level.  Printing it
>in _TI_ where one has to either (a) tear out the pages, (b) photocopy
>the pages and respond in a very small space, or (c) write lots of prose
>to duplicate what was stated in the survey form tends to insure that
>most folks just won't bother.

	Well what I did is photocopy the form, fill in all the blanks, and
include my two page letter with what I really wanted to say in the same
envelope. A few weeks later, I got a polite reply.
		-Ilaine


-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	Before you can spin the wool, you need to comb it.
                   | 	Use the combs with the 5 rows of 6" razor sharp spikes.
ilaine@panix.com   |    Don't drink and comb - trust me on this.
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Term Limits for the Landed Baroncy
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:40:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: vela.atterlep.718404051
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

>Greetings from Arval!  Henry writes:

>The disagreement over baronial term limits may come from the fact that we
>really have no idea what we expect from them or what they should do.  We
>definitely know what we expect of a kingdom seneschal, and we are quite
>certain of the problems that can arise if someone holds that job too long;
>it maynot be a coincidence that term limits for Great Officers are
>(almost?)  universal.  The same is not true of baron/esses.  There is no
>job description, no formal responsibilities.  

  The last time this came up in the Midrealm, people commonly said, "Baron is a
title, not an office."  This is true.  The baroncy is one of the most locally
influenced institutions in the SCA, and it has no formal definition.  A 
baron/ess can do anything s/he wants, and unless it provokes great complaint 
from the populace, there is no problem.
  The last attempt to regularize baronial duties in the Midrealm (by Comar in
his second reign) went down in flames; this is only partly due to poor
political handling.  There seems to be a school of thought that anything that
isn't orderly has to be made so, and that the baroncy is disorderly.  (This
shouldn't be surprising, given the number of engineers in the SCA.)  This 
urge to order isn't always productive, and this is one of those cases where it
is simply better to leave well enough alone.

>The job is so ill-defined that there is no objective way to evaluate the 
>incumbent or a candidate.  And that may be the very best argument in favor of 
>term limits: If there is no good way to decide when you need a new baron, then
>changing them regularly may be very wise indeed.

  I think your statement is erroneous.  There is not one, but many, objective
criteria for deciding what a baron should do--each barony has one.  My barony
can decide when we need a new baron.  However, we can't determine when _you_
need a new baron, nor can you make that decision for us.  To borrow a term
from engineering, there is no set of standards for the barony as there is for
the other offices.  While standards are almost always beneficial in science,
they are not always good things for human societies.  I don't think that we 
should try to standardize the baroncy, and I oppose any such effort.

		Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald
		Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
		Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
		atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		**Magnitudo Vocis**

P.S.  In case you're wondering, here are the (informal) requirements for the 
	Baron of Northwoods.

1) Shows up at some baronial events, and holds at least one court every so
   often.

2) Knows what groups are part of the barony.

3) Refuses to become involved in any political conflicts.

4) Refuses to attempt to control any aspect of baronial life.

	I would love to see what would happen if we had a chance to impose
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dawyd@dorsai.com (David Gruzynski)
Subject: Istvan "the mad"Kostka's whereabouts?
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy +1.718.729.5018
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:19:09 GMT

   My Lady had ordered a pair of shoes from a fellow whose SCA name is 
Istvan "the mad" Kostka (his mundane name is Ted Fleming and his last mundane address was in Lawrence KS) and after waiting over a year and having paid a 
deposit on the work she has not been able to contact him for either the shoes or her money back.  Would any of you happen to know where he may have moved to or
perhaps why he seemed to have dropped out of sight?  

-- 
David Gurzynski                            Brooklyn NY
Prodigy: KGHM08A  and davidg6642@aol.com
Baron Dawyd z Gury CS CSC           East/ Crown Province of Ostgardr
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Feet Voting
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:56:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.163959.23514@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> tperreau@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (The Mad Scot) writes:
>You will also _usually_ find a college associated with a barony, but
>not always.  Our college of St. Golias is an exception to that rule,
>for we have no associated barony (thank God!) and report directly to
>our kingdom officers.

Or Province....

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: a "hair raising" question
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:37:37 GMT

In article <7617@monmouth.edu> c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON) writes:

>	Please pardon the pun, but I've a small question.  My lady and I
>are planning to attend our first event together in some few weeks.  My
>question is this:  What hair style would be appropriate for my lady?

Your lady intends to go bareheaded?!

Shocking!

Aryk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au ( Mark Richard Dewis)
Subject: Re: Expensive Armour
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 23:45:56 GMT

In article <17743@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, helm@jade.ucdavis.edu (Catie Helm) writes:
>So now I will stir up the pot again ;->  I have never been able to
>find any evidence or documentation that sueded leathers were used in
>period.  The process of sueding is done by a rather sophisticated
>machine which splits a hide during the modern tanning process.  (To
>get really technical, a "split" is what most people call suede;
>actually "suede" is a split which has had a nap put on it by yet
>still another tannery machine.  So, all suedes are splits, but not
>all splits are seude.)
>
>In my library of leather sources, all the period pieces are full grain.
>So I will throw the question out to the Rialto - does anyone have any
>sources that show that splits and/or suede are period?

Hmm. One possible out that I can see is whether or not dyed leathers
were used with the flesh side out. This at least would look the same
as suede (and ease my concience about using modern leather ;)

From a historical point of view, I can't see any reason to use suede,
even if it were availiable. You would be effectively reducing the
protection of a full grain hide by expending a lot of effort. Now,
I do know that split hides _were_ used ... as parchment. In that case
it was a matter of making a scarce (in relation to demand) resource
go further - and I'm not sure that the techniques used to split
sheepskin would have produced a suede suitable for leatherwork
or armour anyhow.

(In any case, the best defense I have for using suede is that an
undyed hide of the same size would have cost me over A$100 ... which
would have made my budget ... interesting. ;)

I could see the problem for Lady fighters in coats of plates. By
definition, the armour is made up of smallish pieces, which would
be insufficient female breast protection by my reading of the
marshal's handbook. However, given the large question mark over
14th century body armour development, (due to those blasted
surcotes) I wouldn't think twice about putting a beastplate
in, either seperate or rivetted to the coat.

(That's a point. I can always sew a proper surcote and cover up
that nasty suede. Now, where can I get some cheap silk ... ;)

Another alternative might be a cuirboilli bra; Twcs,
would a design work that covered the breasts, clavicle and neck
in one unit? Or would it need to be in two pieces to give enough
flexibility? (we have three new Lady fighters in our Shire, and
very limited armouring skills - i.e: Gothic is not yet an option,
though Mistress Madelaine is drooling for it :)

>Twcs, who is honestly curious about this
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Catie Helm, internet: helm@geology.ucdavis
>Stable Isotope Lab, Geology Dept.
>University of California, Davis

-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.
-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit. 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: archery officers
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:39:54 GMT

You might try calling the folks in charge of archery in a specific group
the constable.  Not a lot is known about field command of common foot, but
it is generally accepted that they were supervised by the same constabulary
which inspected their arms at musters.

If you are worried about confusion with the constables who are in charge
of lost-and-found, or the constables who are in charge of security, or the
constables who are watching the list ropes, then you might call your
fellow the Archers' Constable or something.

The Marshalcy did not, to my knowledge, supervise common foot soldiers.

I speak here, as usual, about England.

Aryk Nusbacher