HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re1: Serbo-Croatian and Greco-Bulgarian "stuff"
Date: 6 Oct 92 07:40:02 GMT
Organization: Penn State University


Lou Buis  <buis@buengc.bu.edu>    in posting   <97526@bu.edu>  of
4 Oct 92 00:56:05 GMT replies to my posting  <92277.172939PXP111@
psuvm.psu.edu>:

> PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>
>>   --> Your sentence makes no sense in the  "Greek vocabulary"
>>       since Macedonia is NOT..." Greece + (something else)."
>
>  Andronicos, I really have a  lot of respect for you  based on
> your postings,but this one is a disaster. Is this the same per-
> son who wrote the eloquent articles on Macedonia ?

Thanks for the compliment! I don't think that my points here are
a disaster and please read what I will say... more carefully.

> You know VERY WELL that Macedonia is  NOT  only in Greece, but
> also in Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia !!! Why are you
> trying to present yourself as ignorant?

Do you honestly feel  that one would TRY to present himself/her-
self as "ignorant"?  Here is what I wrote: "in the Greek vocabu-
lary MAKEDONIA is not [Greece] + [something else]."
If you believe otherwise.. ask around what the Greeks consider as
Makedonia and you will convince yourself!
Remember the list of names or all the arguments they brought some
time ago: Dardania, Paionia, even Illyria and Moesia, or Cossovo,
west Bulgaria, south Serbia...
What can I say?   Ask any person in downtown Skopje and they will
probably confirm the phrase I used.  At least they articulated it
in the CNN World Report with C.Sojilephska (?).

> If your argument is that the state of "Old Macedonia" was cove-
> vering only the teritory of nowdays Aegean Macedonia,  than too
> bad. You know that that is not true.  It was not exacly the sa-
> me, but slightly bigger,

NOT  the 8th or 6th-century B.C. kingdom  of the Argead dynasty I
know!!!   Even  with all its possessions the kingdom of the 370's
B.C.  was  rather  smaller than the area I assume you denote with
the term "Aegean Macedonia".  Not only this state (?)  hardly had
any provinces on the Aegean coast  (so you are wrong in your com-
parison)  but also,  the Ylieis/Macedonians  ruled lands south of
Bulgaria and ex-Yugoslavia...
I know that in past discussions  I have mentioned Herakleia/Mona-
stiri/Bitola as a peripheral outpost of the  hellenic kingdom but
this does not disprove my statement over the old kingdom.

The rest of the text is based  on the above  misconception or had
no relevance to my basic point so with all due respect I leave it
to someone else -with more free time- to discuss it.

                                               Andronikos Romanos

PS.  If one thinks that Mr.Pavlovic was not eloquent and does not
     pass his ideas across, that is OK.  I understood what he was
     talking about, and I said that he didn't use the wrong words
     since he intended to be understood by a particular audience.
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: All sorts of Macedonians
Date: 4 Oct 92 13:09:50 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Oct4.112048.22191@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
[deleted]
>Well, I think you have missed the point. When you talk about Greeks
>from different regions, you talk about Macedonians, Thessalians,
>Cretans etc.

I don't know what Greek books (from the past) write on the matter, but for
the sake of the truth, all books I've seen from a century (or so) ago,
if/when mentioning 'Macedonians' refer to ethnic Bulgarians. The strongest
'non-Bulgarian' claim has been that some of these Slavs didn't have any
national consciousness at all - when asked - they knew nothing on their
nationality - they only knew they are Christians. But this wasn't the case
with the intellectuals from Macedonia, neither with the entire population.
I think the real issue will be: What will happen, when personalities like
the one who wrote the hearbreaking letter to Newsweek, read/learn about the
truth? It should be quite a cultural shock. And I can see no way of
avoiding that truth (unless Macedonia remains in Yugosalvia). And another
issue - what will happen if few/some/many of the nowadays 'Macedonians'
(probably the elderly people, not the younger generation) proclaim that
they are in fact 'Bulgarians' but were banned to be such? I have no idea if
(and how much) are going to be such cases but just like the case with the
Communist concentration camps in Bulgaria (so many communists couldn't
believe it, and some never accepted it) it's going to be quite a shock. I'm
sure such facts will emerge sooner or later.

> When you do the same for Bulgarians, you talk about
>Dobrujans, Macedonians etc. And in Roumania the Vlachs who came
>to Roumania after the Balkan Wars are (nick)named Macedonians.

I didn't know that, but can hardly be surprised.


>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se


Luben
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Aw shucks, we lost an empire...
Date: 30 Sep 92 09:48:59 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu


 What is the meaning of this game with the followups? First time you
answered to a posting in sct by crossposting to scg and directed the
followup to scg. I didn't change the Newsgroups line. Now the second
time you crosspost to sct and the followup is to scg. Ah, and the "Turkish
sentiments" part of title is erased too. Is there something here or
am I becoming paranoid after I started following soc.culture.greek?

In article <717740844@globe05.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:
>
>      Nowhere in my posting did I write that Turkey
>      is unimportant.  YOUR posting is a rebuttal
>      of an accusation that was never made.

 And Kutluk didn't say anything about the importance or un-importance of 
any country. And he didn't even talk about a lost empire that he was
supposed to be grieving. See, we both post irrelevant articles. :-)
The point is not this. My article was a general evaluation of a general
trend that was triggered by your article.  And of course I didn't say
that Turkey is important in my "rebuttal." But, it is seriously important
for some people such as this lady that started the thread. This is
the topic that we are "discussing." I am sure that we see these
topics at different angels, but still we see the same topic. Don't we?
Talk about why did you need to reply to Kutluk in such a way. Or your
reply to Hakan. If people are willing to discuss "Turkish sentiments,"
then there will be other people who will discuss "x-Russian Jew sentiments"
and even maybe the others.

>-- Eduard Wiener


 Sadi Turgut

-- 
  The Greeks have survived in spite of all the world could
do against them, and all they could do against themselves.
              --Sir Winston Churchill
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic (was Re: Understanding...)
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:56:48 GMT

In article <Oct01.020521.90900@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas) writes:
>In article <1abng5INNc9q@agate.berkeley.edu>, sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut)
>writes:
>>In article <9209271820.AA17479@sungate.icsmac.com> gunther.neuberger@icsmac4.icsmac.COM (GUNTHER NEUBERGER) writes:
>>
>> This is a general practice in Greece as I am informed. The main purpose
>>is to prevent tourists from going to Turkey. By doing this they are
>>either trying to prevent Turkey from having foreign currency (which has
>
>Interesting logic. Then, can you explain why Greeks visit Turkey and spend 
>money there?
>

	Not to forget that Greeks are the second biggest tourist market in 
Turkey (Well was last time I looked).

>>with their propaganda. The first one was about a Greek who was telling
>>his friends that Turks want to invade the Aegean islands. The last one
>
>Didn't your president say last year that the Dodecanese Islands should be
>Turkish?
>--
>Constantinos A. Caroutas
>
>"It's easy to make mistakes when others will be held responsible."

	It seems it's aour Turkish friend that has been brought up to beleave tt us Greeks were brought up to hate them, well and then spread the mutual fealing
to us Greeks.
	George
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic (was Re: Understanding...)
Date: 6 Oct 92 19:20:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.schoinas.718399218
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences

sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut) writes:

>In article <schoinas.717913772@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:
>>Well, don't compare apples with oranges. If you want to understand
>>the evolvement of "Megalh Idea" and it's role in the politics of the
>>Greek state, you can find quite enough material. But for start I could
>>point out, that there was a numerous greek population in Asia minor
>>while there was never any significant turkish population in Dodekanhssa.
>>The exchange of populations in 1922 was the end of the role of "Megalh Idea" 
>>in greek politics.

> How about Enosis?  Isn't it based on Megali Idea? 

Strictly speaking you are not right. It would be more correct
to say that they have common roots as they evolved in the greek 
psyche, the notion of 'rhomaikon'. Hmm, I am afraid I cannot 
avoid writing an article on the subject.

> Although, today people
>do not talk much about it, it didn't disappear yet. During Papandreu's
>visit, lots of 'Enosis' slogans were heard. 

You are talking about 'Enosis', not 'Megali Idea'.

>Also, what does 'pan-Hellenic' mean? 

pan == all

>And why 'Hellen-ism' frequently means 'Greeks'?

Why not? I don't really understand what's your problem with these terms.

> I don't know how wide-spread the territorial dreams toward Asia Minor
>is, but it exists. And it certainly has roots in Megali Idea. 

See above.

>And, if
>one wants to evaluate 'Turkish Claims', it should be seen in an equivalent
>light with the 'Greek Claims.'

I don't think the case is similar. But I am willing to discuss it, if 
you want. 

					 Bye,
					Yannis.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9473 soc.culture.yugoslavia:8994 soc.culture.bulgaria:1470
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Albanians and Pseudo-Macedonia
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 11:28:10 GMT

Panos Tamamidis  (ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) writes:
>I remember that some weeks ago there was a dispute in this group about the
>position of the Albanian minority regarding the recognition of ex-Yugoslavia's
>Socialist Republic of Macedonia with the name Republic of Macedonia. One
>person from Sweden kept saying that there were no objections of the Albanian
>minority about the name, and all was just a Greek propaganda.

Actually, I didn't exactly say that there was no objections, I only
questioned the claim that there was, as I've read nothing of the
kind except in Usenet articles from Greek posters, who didn't
provide any references.

>Well, today I was watching a British video about the Macedonian issue.
>Several Albanian leaders were interviewed.  I remember some names that could
>be useful: Mr. V. Nemisi, and Mr. Nevzat Halili.  The second person also
>claimed that the Albanian minority could be the majority in that state, and
>it is at least 40% of the population.  He also said that even if their data
>(i.e. the state's data) are correct, the Albanians with their high number
>of births will soon be a majority in this state.

And? The purported Albanian objection to the Macedonian name remains
challenged.

>There was also an interview of Prof. Dimitar Gochev from a Univ. located
>in Sofia.  Prof. Gochev said that there is not any evidence which suggests
>that these people (pseudo-Macedonians, that is) are not Bulgarians.

There is one very good evidence: they say that they are not Bulgarians.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9512 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9023 soc.culture.bulgaria:1484
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Date: 27 Sep 92 12:40:38 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <schoinas.717557372@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:

[deleted]

>>And in the West, from what
>>I know, communist ideas declined rapidly after 1956. Nothing wrong - just
>>curiosity.
>
>What do you mean by communist ideas?

Shall I start explaining what the communist ideas and ideology is?

> Up until very recently (until it
>split and changed its name) the italian communist party was the largest 
>party in Italy, if I am not mistaken.

Well, maybe I had to mention that my reference to 1956 was from what I
heard here in Britain about the public opinion and the British communist
party (from informal talks - the reality may be different). I also remember
that for a long time, not only the Italian but also the French Comm. Party
was one of the largest in the country (escpecially after WWII - later the
FCP lost it's massive suport and recently ...). 

Thanks for the figures and comments for Greece's parties. I reckon the
subject became irrelevant for this newsgroup, but your information was
interesting.

>						Yannis.

Regards

luben
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9345 soc.culture.turkish:10283 soc.culture.europe:8676
From: branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.europe
Subject: EC AND TURKEY....
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:33:56 GMT
Reply-To: branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis)
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility


ATHENS 28/09/92 (ANA)
The President of the European University Eleni Ahweiller expressed
the view Saturday that Turkey might become a member of the EC after
the end of 20th century but only after providing it had learned its lessons
in human rights. She added that due to its slow economic developmet,
demografic problem and the role it could play in Asia, Turkey has not many
friends in Europe.
Mrs. Ahweiller was speaking to the press on her arrival in Thessaloniki to
chair an International Conference on " HUMAN RIGHTS AND THE GREEK
MINORITIES IN TURKEY".
She told reporters that the Turkish goverment, aspiring to EC membership, should
demonstrate by deeds its respect for the international conventions on human
rights, which it has already ratified, and ensured their application by 
administrative and goverment officials.
Answering a question on whether Turkey might become a member of
 EC prior
to the year 2,000 supported by European forces which favour
 its accesion, she said:
"I don't think Turkey has that many friends in the Community".
Mrs. Ahweiller added that many European forces do not wish Turkey's accesion
to the Community for reasons attributed to the country's slow economic 
development and demografic problem and also due to the role
 it can play in Asia.
"Besides there is always the possibility of a Greek veto", 
she added, referring to the
preregognition set by Greece that unless progress has been achieved 
in the Cyprus
question, Turkey will not secure accesion to the EC.

"On the other hand", she said, "nobody can deny 
the fact that Turkey can play a role
in the wider geopolitical zone of Central Asia".
"In any case... Turkey's accesion to the EC is not in the list of 
priorities of EC 
for
the near future. Perhaps after the end of the 20th century and after it has proved 
that it has learned its lessons in respect of human rights and the rights of minorities,
Turkey will be ready to align with the European Nations".



==========
Spiros
From: phs265y@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Date: 30 Sep 92 08:36:45 +1000
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

In article <1992Sep26.012810.16478@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>, 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
> 
> 	What is you source of knowledge for what they got arested ? SAS ?
> Or was it those OSE postings. Not very objective. They have lied before
> remeber aboriginal goverment from SAS or the student ralies at my own
> UNfrom the Socialist group. Bothe lies. 

       You are full of shit mate. I said there were student rallies in Sydney
from 29th June till the 2nd of July. There were. I also provided the references
of the newspapers which covered the demos. I also have videotaped news coverage 
of the demos. By the way, the week was called "Rage against the Right" and was
in part organised by the ISO.


                               Tony Hartin
                               International Socialist Organisation
                               Australia
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re:  REQUEST:  Hippocratic Oath in Greek
Keywords: Hippocrates, Asklepios, Hygiene
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 01:25:11 GMT

In article <BvMt7y.100@cs.columbia.edu> ji@cs.columbia.edu (John Ioannidis) writes:
>In article <1992Oct4.101541.28350@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>>>
>>>Ou dwsw de oude farmakon oudeni aith8eis 8avasimon oude ufhfhsomai
>>>3umboulihn toihnde. Omoiws de oude gunaiki pesson f8orion dwsw.
>>>Agnws de kai osiws diathrhsw bion emon kai texnhn emhn.
>>>
>>>(I will never give a deadly medicine, even if I asked to,
>>>neither will I give advice for such a medicine.
>>>Similarly, I will never give an abortive medicine to a woman.
>>>I will keep my life and art pure and holy.)
>>
>>
>>	Of the whole oath the above impressed me most. They seem timeless
>>and very applicable for today !!!
>>




>
>Please keep your reactionary politics to yourself. It's bad enough
>that we have the bible-thumpers trying to impose on us their
>(mis)interpretation of a book written in a totally different world
>to today's realities. What's next, neo-pythagoreans trying to ban
>computers for profaning integer numbers?


	It was missunderstood what I wrote. All I meant was that it
could be interpreted by todays stabdards. And that is whay the
doctors to be, take it. On another note who the hell are you to tell me 
what to say even if that was my position that you interpreted. You don't like
it say it, remeber no net-police, nerd.


>
>/ji
>
> "Intellectuals trying to           |  ji@cs.columbia.edu  
>  out-intellectual other            |  B5 f+ w++ cd g+(+) k+? sv r- p+
>  intellectuals" (Fritz the Cat)    |  ... It's all greek to me!

	Looks like you have the signiture that applies to you.
		CYA, enjoy life the net is not the center of your being.
Go out for onece dude.
	GEorge
.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ji@cs.columbia.edu (John Ioannidis)
Subject: Re:  REQUEST:  Hippocratic Oath in Greek
Keywords: Hippocrates, Asklepios, Hygiene
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:45:34 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.101541.28350@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>>
>>Ou dwsw de oude farmakon oudeni aith8eis 8avasimon oude ufhfhsomai
>>3umboulihn toihnde. Omoiws de oude gunaiki pesson f8orion dwsw.
>>Agnws de kai osiws diathrhsw bion emon kai texnhn emhn.
>>
>>(I will never give a deadly medicine, even if I asked to,
>>neither will I give advice for such a medicine.
>>Similarly, I will never give an abortive medicine to a woman.
>>I will keep my life and art pure and holy.)
>
>
>	Of the whole oath the above impressed me most. They seem timeless
>and very applicable for today !!!
>

Please keep your reactionary politics to yourself. It's bad enough
that we have the bible-thumpers trying to impose on us their
(mis)interpretation of a book written in a totally different world
to today's realities. What's next, neo-pythagoreans trying to ban
computers for profaning integer numbers?

/ji

 "Intellectuals trying to           |  ji@cs.columbia.edu  
  out-intellectual other            |  B5 f+ w++ cd g+(+) k+? sv r- p+
  intellectuals" (Fritz the Cat)    |  ... It's all greek to me!
Newsgroups: soc.human.rights,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Greek justice towards a Jehovah Witness.
Keywords: Human rights,Greece, religious discrimination
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 13:30:24 GMT

In article <9210030201.AA26092@cc.UMontreal.CA> sebr@iro.umontreal.CA (Sebastien Racine *Rocker*) writes:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     I heard that public advocation of religions in 

	You heard wrong.

>     Greece was strictly prohibited according to a 
>     law (1939). Greek Orthodox church is allowed to 
>     make propoganda of any kind, on the other hand 
>     any public activity of other religious branches 
>     is strictly prohibited. Yesterday I have learned 
>     that a friend of mine working for our organization 
>     in Greece was prosecuted because of his religious 
>     beliefs. We, Jehovahs' Witnesses strongly protest this 
>     behaviour of the Greek government. While allowing TV 
>     programs and prayers for orthodox church but 
>     prohibiting other religious TV programs, talking 
>     about democracy is useless.
>
>     We strongly protest such a law in an EC country 
>     which must be assumed to be democratic. 
>     Why was Greece accepted to the EC, anyway?
>
	Because Greece has one of the best records on human writes
and respect to peoples relegons in the world. Many international
sorces prove so. Well there is your friend ...


>     My best regards,
>     ---
>     SR
>

	George
From: sebr@iro.umontreal.CA (Sebastien Racine *Rocker*)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Greek Justice towards a Jehovah Witness.
Keywords: none
Date: 4 Oct 92 05:22:05 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal


     Hi,

     I heard that public advocation of religions in 
     Greece was strictly prohibited according to a 
     law (1939). Greek Orthodox church is allowed to 
     make propoganda of any kind, on the other hand 
     any public activity of other religious branches 
     is strictly prohibited. Yesterday I have learned 
     that a friend of mine working for our organization 
     in Greece was prosecuted because of his religious 
     beliefs. We, Jehovahs' Witnesses strongly protest this 
     behaviour of the Greek government. While allowing TV 
     programs and prayers for orthodox church but 
     prohibiting other religious TV programs, talking 
     about democracy is useless.

     We strongly protest such a law in an EC country 
     which must be assumed to be democratic. 
     Why was Greece accepted to the EC, anyway?

     My best regards,
     ---
     SR