HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 19:00:34 CDT
From:         Bob Boston <S2.RSB@ISUMVS.IASTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Relevance?

You guys will notice right away that my writing is four times as good as it
used to be cuz I just bought a 9600-baud modem.  Ain't modern science
wunnerful?

One problem with relevance: who knows what is going to be relevant to students
a few years hence?  The students certainly don't, and few, if any, of us do.
The acceleration of the rate of change in business, politics and technology is
fanastic. It's difficult enough to keep abreast of change, let alone to
predict what will change and how.  What seems central to a profession or job
today may be completely irrelevant in five or ten years.  What seems to be
harebrained fuzzy thinking today may be the center of a profession in 1997.

I've told several of you that I turned down a job offer from a division of IBM
in 1967.  They wanted me to sell computerized cash registers to retail stores.
Ever hear of such an impractical idea?  What store could possibly afford to
buy a computer?

Until the university bookstore starts selling crystal balls, relevance is
problematic.

Bob Boston
Iowa State University
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:04:00 EST
From:         "Christopher T. Loschen" <LOSCHEN@BRANDEIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Phenomenology and _The Waves_

Wes, I haven't managed to find the passage you mentioned in _Gravity's
Rainbow_.  That is, you argued that a vision starting from Geli ends up
in Gottfried, thus suggesting that selves arise from discourses rather
than discourses coming from selves.  That's certainly an intriguing reading,
and of course alludes to all the post-structuralist notions as well.
I wonder, though, if it doesn't suggest a limit to such ideas.  I'm quite
enamored by relativism and deconstruction, but my most fevered solipsistic
imagination cannot construct a situation where I start having a vision and
come out someone else on the other end.  That is, this phenomenon seems
inherently textual, not real, something that HAS to be in a book.  If it
isn't mimetic, then, its point must be aesthetic rather than epistemological,
don't you think?  Perhaps we might argue that discourses produce visions in
different people, that those visions are written into us from outside, as,
say, Gerty MacDowell's romantic fantasies all seem controlled by her society's
cultural product (I'm referring to the "Nausicaa" chapter in _Ulysses_).
Nevertheless, there always seems to me that no matter how much we question
and obliterate the self, there is still some tiny subjectivity doing the
questioning.  I'm not sure if there's much we could do with that self, but
it still seems to be there.  If that self is not autonymous, what is the
self making that distinction?  I suppose my argument here is more with
post-structuralism than with you directly, but these issues seem important
to me.  Any suggestions?

Yours, Chris Loschen

PS--if you find a page reference, I have the Penguin edition of _GR_.  I
dropped the other discussions this time, since I think we've reached more
or less agreement on those issues.  I look forward to hearing more from you.
Chris
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:14:29 CDT
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Social Interaction in Computer Classrooms

I've wanted for some time to design a classroom with computers as David Schwalm
describes them--recessed under glass.  But I wonder, David--is such an
arrangement comfortable prolonged use?  I would think that looking down so
far would be murder on the neck.  During the short space of a class period it
probably wouldn't matter, but most universities use their classrooms for public
computer facilities during off hours.  I'd love to know, not that I'm likely to
have the opportunity to design a classroom any time soon.

Wes Chapman
Illinois Wesleyan University
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:52:00 EDT
From:         "Thomas Reber @ English Department" <REBER@CANISIUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Relevance?

I like what you say about Hirsch, David.  It is easy to paint him as
a Fascist and to feel that the "liberal" thing to do is to attack him.
Yet I found myself thinking a lot about cultural literacy as I was
listening to Pat Buchanan address the Republican convention last night,
resplendent in his xenophobic zeal, telling of his hatred of sundry
groups, and declaring that it is time to "take back our culture."
The questions, of course, are whom he means when he says "our" and
who took the culture away from us, anyway?  You said that it is
"important for students to acquire a
 range of cultural information that takes them beyond their personal experience
 and immediate context."  I was thinking something like that last
night, for I was astonished that 1) Buchanan could dare to make such
coded attacks on minority groups, and 2) of the PBS panelists, only
Mark Shields really seemed to be outaged by this coding.  I would feel
more comfortable if I felt more Americans knew the cultural "deep
structure" of their country--including the variety of peoples who
have contributed to the national life and the principle of tolerance
which supposedly underlies our government and our legal apparatus (e.g.,
the Bill of Rights)--so that fewer would-be Pat Buchanans would think
that such coding would be successful.
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:11:00 EST
From:         00D0HENRIKSE@BSUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Writing entirely by writing (15)

Robert:  Ball State's playing around with Distance Ed taught completely by
computers (no TV) and once the niggly wires are all in the proper place, it
seems to hold great potential.  What a great way for a nervous non-traditional
to get his/her feet wet.  I went back after twenty years "out" and would have
to get his/her feet wet.  I went back after twenty years "out" and would have
(opps) loved to reenter with this method.
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:21:18 EST
From:         Karla Saari Kitalong <KITALONG@MTUS5.CTS.MTU.EDU>
Subject:      thanks

Thanks, everyone, for all of the good suggestions and info on stand-alone
word processors. You confirmed all of my reservations and shattered most
of my hopes with regard to those machines.

Question: Will a 20-year-old buy the concept of a combination birthday/
Christmas present sometime in October (midway between birthday and Christmas,
but before Apple's back to school sale is over?) Stay tuned for the sequel.

BTW: I think the "hidden agenda" someone mentioned is that she is convinced
she is harboring the great American novel. I shouldn't squelch a dream on
account of mere dollars.

 ---------------------
 Karla Saari Kitalong
 ---------------------------------
 Academic Computing Specialist - Department of Humanities
 Michigan Technological University, Houghton, MI  49931
 --------------------------------------------
 E-mail:  kitalong@mtus5.bitnet * kitalong@mtu.edu
 Voice:   work - (906) 487-2066 * home - (906) 482-3656
 ----------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 08:10:52 --500
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Virus Alert!

Jim, I've been using McAfee Associates SCAN, version something or other with
V93 as suffix.  I'll check when I get to school and get you the full version
number.  Also F-PROT 204A, release date 25 June 1992.

JOhn S
UT Austin
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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 16:31:46 CDT
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Idea ping-poing

On Sat, 15 Aug 1992 21:21:00 EST <ENGMYLES@UBVMS> said:
>Wini:  you are very diplomatic.  I was trying to Blame him and avoid
>responsibility. But I guess I won't.

Kind of interesting, actually, the way we've both tried to duck the
credit and responsibility for a simple suggestion, collaboratively
arrived at. I suppose we know the idea Wini liked did not
come from either of us, but from both in a happy accident of
juxtaposition, and that the idea didn't even really originate then,
but only came back to the surface at that point. Somebody(s) else has
come up with similar notions at other times, in other places, and
we just happened to fit two pieces of the puzzle together in this
particular place. And as children of the print era, with its
tenacious belief in the ownership of knowledge, we hate to take
credit for something not verifiably *ours*.

And if Wini tries it, and something goes very wrong (the students
male students all join a monastery, say, or the women form a
heavy metal band) she can't send her lawyers after us!

--Eric Crump
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Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1992 21:16:00 EST
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: misplaced the deed to the Idea

Eric: I guess I'd feel more comfortable sayimng this course will change
your X in the following ways.  "X" can be critical skills, spelling,
writing style, things I might be able to do, and then, maybe, with luck,
I could specify and actually do.  But all the magic would be out of it.
I might be a better teacher.
Myles
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:51:00 EDT
From:         "Thomas Reber @ English Department" <REBER@CANISIUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Typing

Karla--
Unlike David Schwalm, I _did_ take your mother's advice and took a
typing class.  I can remember exactly when, too--in the summer after
eighth grade, with Mrs. Gilchrist, 7:25-10:25 a.m.  Few educational
experiences in my life have been more boring (""ff gg jj hh," etc., with
an occasional sentence thrown in, for three solid hours), but the class
was useful (the ability to type got me a series of clerical jobs in
libraries, where accurate typing is of course esp. valued).  And now
I have advanced from a speed of 30 wpm/4 errors at the end of
her class to about 80/20 (thank God for the backspace key!).
From: vsf@SAGE.CC.PURDUE.EDU (Bob Child)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: typing
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:41:39 GMT
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              92 11:28 am

> Typing class, wow.
> It was a valuable class even though I was one of the worst in the class and
> was told "I'll give you a C if you don't take Typing 2!

Reminds me of my own experience... but I got an "A" for 30 words a
minute.  I built fence and such for the instructor's husband, and she
spent the entire semester laughing at me, shaking her head, and
constantly asking "What's a farm boy wanna take typin' for?"

Still doing 30...

    --                                                          --
      Bob Child, Instructional Lab Coordinator, Heav 227 & SC 30
      Purdue University Computing Center / Department of English
      Internet: vsf@sage.cc.purdue.edu  /  Phone: (317) 742-7667
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 10:49:18 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: go for it, Rob

David:


      It might interest you'all to note that the creators of
      Crusader Rabbit went on to create Rocky and Bullwinkle.

                                        Every Dog should have a Boy

                                          Martin (Way Back) Rosenberg
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:45:13 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: go for it, Rob

Fred:


     I don't remember "The Crusader," but I do remember "Crusader Rabbit."



                                                                      mer
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:20:58 CDT
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Phenomenology and _The Waves_

Chris,  lots of interesting stuff in your reply.  First, about your argument
that shifting perspectives avoids having to deal with the thing in itself
rather than implying that the object in itself is impossible to reach--good
point; that's a much more precise description of what shifting narrators does.
Whether that implies that "enough perspectives" could really get to the object
itself is another matter, even theoretically.  It seems to me that the logic
of shifting perspectives really precludes that possibility (if you bracket off
the object, you can't unbracket it), but some of the writers who have tried the
technique have probably assumed that enough perspectives could get us there.

About _Gravity's Rainbow_.  Yes, most of the time we know more or less who the
characters are.  But the exceptions to that rule are VERY important.  I have in
 mind a particular scene towards the end of the novel (p. 720 in the Vintage? I
 don't have the text with me) which does a riff on imagery of the Titans--stuff
 about an "overpeaking of life" which we humans, "God's spoilers," are sent
to earth to control.  Following all this, the narrative seems to lead us to
a very ambiguous redemptive vision (of the Serpent in rainbow lashings).  OK,
what's interesting about this scene is that the character who is being
discussed as we enter the scene is Geli Tripping; she seems to be the one who
has the vision.  But by the time we leave the scene, at the end of a paragraph
when the narrative seems to turn away from the redemptive vision, the character
who seems to have had (or refused) the vision is Gottfried.  There's no way to
naturalize this shift of perspective; the text has simply run the two
characters together.  These characters aren't individuals, but parts of a text.
Other parts of the novel thematize explicitly the idea that selves are products
of discourses--and THAT'S a different epistemological space from the more
classically modernist shift in discourses.

Finally, about your reading of the_The Waves_:  I think I'll have to read the
novel again; it's been five years or so since I read it, and I don't remember
the final scenes of the novel all that well, although now that you mention it,
I do have a dim recollection of the final narrative running everyone together.
Your reading sounds plausible to me.

Good to talk with you--sounds like you're doing interesting work.

yrs,
Wes Chapman
Illinois Wesleyan University
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 11:45:00 EST
From:         00D0HENRIKSE@BSUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: misplaced the deed to the Idea

Wendy, let us hear the risks you're taking this semester. Sounds
interesting.  I agree with Dan (and others) that the only way to stay
vital in the classroom is to change "angles" and continue to learn.
But as long as we're breathing, how can we not be learning new things?
I love trying to infect students with CURIOSITY; we never know
everything about anything!  I feel they choose to participate more when
they feel the "what" of learning remains open ended and the portion they
can contribute will be eagerly received.  They're pretty used to not
being listened to and get pretty shy when they realize someone IS
listening.

We start next Wednesday at Ball State.  All new, scared freshmen!  How
fun!

Donna Henriksen   00d0henrikse@bus.edu
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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 16:01:53 CDT
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Behaving like college students

On Sun, 16 Aug 1992 14:36:34 --500 David E. Schwalm said:
> A more
> problematic student is the student seeking very specific training--say, a
> teaching certificate or certain qualifications in accounting. These students
> (often but not alway s older. non-traditional students) are willing to work
> very hard in courses whose relevance to their personal goals is obvious, but
> they are extremely impatient with general education requirements, foreign
> language requirements, required composition courses, and the like.

Gotta admit I empathize strongly with those students seeking a
specialized education, but I don't think specialization is the
cause, necessarily, of their resistence. You pegged it, David,
when you said they are generally unwilling to tackle courses
that do not have any evident relevence to their personal goals.
Some folks (like me) would even be interested in getting a
broader education that most pre-designed programs allow, but
encounter frustrations similar to those of the specialists.
I got your standard liberal arts education (general ed +
English major) and had to read some mighty valuable stuff,
like _Clarissa_ and the lively poetry of George Herbert,
along the way. It was *good* for me. I could have spent
the time and money studying more history, philosophy,
anthropology and physics, which I'm also interested in,
but that, presumably, wouldn't have been as good for me,
and would have created all sorts of bureaucratic burping
and heartburn.

Relevance (to the student) should be the first consideration
in defining what a program of study looks like. If, as you
say, commitment to education and engagement with the learning
process are so important (I agree that they are), then
letting students decide what to study (and how they will
change themselves) seems necessary.

--Eric Crump
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:29:00 EDT
From:         WWOOD@LUCY.WELLESLEY.EDU
Subject:      Re: well said

Thanks, Myles.  I think it's really interesting that both you and Eric
are at pains to attribute the idea to the other--an idea that seems to
me truly composite.  As I told Eric (in what I think was a private message,
not an MBU message, so forgive me if I'm saying this twice inpublic), I
really don't think 19-yr-olds are very good at detecting change in themselves
(at least, intellectual change) nor do I th
ink all the change that WILL
happen as a result of our teaching happens right away.  But I love the
idea of getting them to think about it, from day one (your idea) and
especially of passing the ball to them (Eric's idea).

Wini
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 08:36:48 EDT
From:         ELWIN MCKELLAR <mckellar@MTU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: typing

Karla,

Did your mother talk to mine? She also encouraged me to take typing in
high school - a request that confused the administrators because typing was
part of the business curriculum and I was in college prep!

As you are aware, it was a good move - with handwriting like mine, it was
either learn to type, or become a doctor...

	**********************************************************
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Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1992 21:21:00 EST
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: well said

Wini:  you are very diplomatic.  I was trying to Blame him and avoid
responsibility. But I guess I won't.
I wonder if we are very good at detecting change in 19 year olds. I think
my students "improve", but I don't test or check for it, and besides, I want
to think that.  So how am I to tell?  And if I can't, how can they?
And I'm not sure I want to change them: I just want them to read more by
the end of the semester than they had read before it began.   How do I say,
read Browning and change in the following ways?  Or change your reading
in the following ways?  Or your writing?  Cna they all -- all 30 diverse
individual kids -- change i;n the same ways?
I wish I'd never started this.  I have to start teaching a week from Monday.
Or going to class.
Myles
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:12:00 EDT
From:         WWOOD@LUCY.WELLESLEY.EDU
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) What we're allowed to know (5)

Becky, the research design and "ethnomethodology" courses you mention do
exist.  I was all set to begin (again) a doctoral program at Harvard
School of Education this fall precisely because I could take such courses
there--but then the pressing need (and opportunity) to direct this writing
program took over.  But it is inspiring to look at HGSE's catalog to get a
sense of how research design is presented in a well-structured graduate
program.  I'd be interested to hear if other (cheaper) schools have
similar programs.

Wini
wwood@lucy.wellesley.edu
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