From: nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle)
Subject: Re: Kicked out of a.f.d-q?  I don't think so
Organization: Psych Department, Indiana University
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:05:05 GMT

young@ssdd475a.erim.org (Peter Young) writes:
>nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle) writes:
>> No, I'm not sure just what I've said or done that's given you the 
>> idea that I might disagree with you on that point, but maybe if I keep 
>> on denying your incorrect implications then you'll eventually get the 
>> message that I am not defending Steve or Jack but rather the right of 
>> free speech to which they have just as great a claim to as you or me.

>I have a real hard time with this one.

   Oh, please don't say that. You and me, a couple of liberals, sitting 
here in the middle of one of the biggest nests of conservatives on Usenet 
and you say you have a "hard time" with the right of free speech? Say it 
ain't so, Peter. It would be a long time before conservatives let us live 
that one down.

>If I choose to skip over posts by particular individuals, or to not read 
>particular authors or listen to particular radio commentators, how does 
>that restrict anyone's right to free speech?

    Not one bit, however my general impression is that when these guys 
show up people *do* read what they post and the ensuing flamefests are 
typically highly emotional, highly abusive (in both directions), and 
unfortunately not very conclusive.

>If Steve or Jack convince folks that their posts are not worth reading, 
>there is nothing anywhere that can reasonably be done to force those 
>folks to read them. I hope you aren't suggesting that the entire alt.??? 
>group got together and conspired to kill Steve and Jack? 

    No, certainly not. The talk and soc hierarchies were the real 
ringleaders...     ;)

    Seriously though, I'm sure that Steve and Jack are in a lot of kill 
files, but once again it just seems to me that when these guys show up 
many people do *not* ignore them. Quite to the contrary in fact. In a 
way Steve and Jack are almost ideal "bandwidth absorbers" because their 
posts tend to be so controversial and evocative of emotional response.
Sometimes they seem to intentionally attempt to honk people off, and they 
generally succeed.

>If this is true, these guys must post some incredible drivel.

    To tell you the truth, I've seen worse, but it's pretty thick all the 
same. Jack has some deeply-held but unpopular views about the legitimacy 
of the state of Israel, and Steve seems to have been a past unpopular 
attraction in talk.abortion. At the risk of repeating myself for the 3 
billionth time, I don't agree with these guys on any of their issues, 
and I don't condone with any of the email death-threat type stuff that 
Susan brought up.

> This sounds like the claim of restriction of first ammendment rights 
> because Rush cannot be found in the DC area.  It doesn't wash.

    Actually I didn't think that Rush had actually made the claim that 
keeping him off the air in DC is a violation of his 1st ammendment rights, 
but then neither am I claiming in this case that ostracism is a violation 
of either Steve or Jack's 1st ammendment rights. My claim is simply that 
they're effectively kicked out for the moment and whenever they come back 
around we sort of collectively snipe at them until they go away again. 
No human rights violations, no dark conspiracies. Just good old-fashioned 
peer-group dynamics.

    Getting back to where we started (am I sorry I brought this up or what?)
I think that that's what happened with Ted and his attempts to defend Dan 
Quayle. In answer to the subject of this acursed thread, I honestly 
think that at least in a certain sense, Ted may very well have been 
"Kicked out" of a.f.d-q.

--
Nathan Engle                        Software Juggler
Psychology Department               Indiana University
nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu      nengle@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.homosexuality