From: c23st@KOCRSV01.DELCOELECT.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Continued comparisons of economies
Date: 7 Apr 92 01:30:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: kocrsw06.9204070130.AA11881

[warning. Extra long message. Contains no violence. PG-13 rating]

> Hasan B. Mutlu (han@anadolu.michigan.com)
> >c23st@KOCRSV01.DELCOELECT.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
> 
> >What does the Kurdish issue have to do with the stock market? and of
> >all places, of GREECE? Get a Life Hasan. Could you just ONCE post
> >a SMALL response to this simple question? what does the 
> >Turkish-Kurdish issue have to do with the stock market of Greece?
> 
> Here we go again. My complaint, and such it was, was directed at
> your habit of editing my article in such a way as to leave you
> with straw man arguments to knock down. If your arguments are
> really sound and valid, then they can stand to be looked at
> in the light of the complete statement to which you are 
> replying. Don't you think? 

Standard Mutlu answer. The issue remains, Hasan. What does the stock
market of Greece have to do with a discussion about the Kurds? Is it
that hard to explain? I am not interested in debating the Kurdish
issue. All i saw was [...Kurds....] Turkey has more stock market than
Greece [....Kurds & Dead People....]. If you want to be technical, what
is your complaint? Your note [i.e. the original to which I responded] 
was not a complaint against anyone. Therefore to what, and when, 
did you complain? 

'Habit' means I have done so in the past. Like most people, I work for
a living and do not spend hours typing stuff on the net (i.e. i am not
a habitual usenet poster by any means).  And I have never had the
pleasure of discussing anything with you so far, so spare us the
rhetoric of 'habitual straw man generators'.  You conveniently ignored
most of my post and figures comparing the Greek and Turkish economy,
concentrating more on things like the spelling of my last name and
coffee and your PPP figure.

So please explain, Oh Kind One, what does the Greek Stock market 
have to do with the Kurdish issue? It is a simple answer. It does,
_______________________________. [ ] It doesn't, and was used 
out of context because _______________________________________[ ]. 

> >Of course anyone else could also see that the economies of the two 
> >countries are vastly different. Greece is a few orders of magnitude
> >smaller (9 Mil vs. 40something mil), and the economies are based on
> >different things. Why don't you compare standards of living, medical
> >care, per capita income,.....

Again, no answer, just the standard methodology, find one figure and
stick to it till yer' blue in yer' face.

> Source: 'World Development Report: 1990'
> 
> 	"Data On The Turkish Economy"

> 1. Average annual growth rate of GNP per capita: 9.6%

Impressive. From what base, i.e. what is the GNP per capita? My figures
said $1300 in 1987, so in three years (1990) it's around $1700. For Greece,
the 87 figure is $4350, for 1990 it is $6900, translating to a 16% a
year growth rate.

> 2. Average annual energy production growth rate: 8.9%

Then how come Greece, which imports quite a bit of its energy from
Yugoslavia/Bulgaria, has much higher per capita production of energy?
(33B KWH for 10 mil people vs. 46B KWH for 56 mil?)  (must be the
milder weather or all these Solar water heaters in Greece :-)).

> 3. Share of Education: 18.1%

How come there's 30% illiteracy rate? 

> 4. Share of Economic Services: 22.1%

Cool. We got more. (nya nya nya nya)

> 5. Average annual growth rate of exports: 15.3%

Mighty impressive, though you ignored my paragraph about Turkiye used
as a prime cheap labor source. Are you proud of all the $1.99 Kmart
"made in Turkey" 100% cotton shirts? 

> 6. Average annual growth rate of imports: 10.3%

Quite high! any austerity/import restrictions to help keep money in
Turkiye as opposed to it going outside? and with a 70% inflation a year?

> 7. Share of 0-14 years old in population: 35.4%
> 8. Share of 15-64 years old in population: 60.3%

So Turkiye has lots of young people. What do you do with the old ones? 

> 9. Crude birth rate per thousand population: 30

Nothing to be proud of. Not that Greece's 2 per 1000 is
any prouder either.... 

> 10. Crude death rate per thousand population: 8

No comment. 

> 11. Average annual growth rate of urban population: 3.4% 

Nothing to be proud of.

> 12. Urban population as a share of total population: 47%

Hmmm. Same as in Greece. Nothing to be proud of.

> 13. Government budget deficit as share of GNP: -4.0%

Now that's something to be proud of. Seriously.

> 14. Energy consumption per capita: 822 kg. of oil equivalent.

No figures provided for competing country. I provided figures for all
my data for both sides. Why did you ignore the fact that Turkiye,
being 6 times the size of Greece, has LESS private and commercial
vehicles? or passenger miles? or airports? ports? commercial flights?

> 15. Life expectancy at birth: 64 years

Greece's is 75. Again, figures  for things like availability of medical
care to all citizens (or visitors for that matter), hospital beds, 
doctors, etc. conveniently ignored.

> 16. ...

Number of TV's, VCR's, phones, airline passenger miles, ..... ???????

> GNP per capita? 

Here we go again...

> Source: 'United Nations, Human Development Report,' 1990.
> 
> Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to Purchasing Power
> Parity: Turkiye, Greece and Chile are in the same category. That
> is, $3,000 - $5,999. 
> 
> Source: 'International Economics: Theory and Policy' by Paul R.
>         Krugman and Maurice Obstfeld, Harper Collins Publishers,
>         1991, (second edition).
> 
> In terms of 'Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to 
> Purchasing Power Parity,' Greece is in the same category with 
> Turkiye.

You don't get it, do you, Hasan? is the Output Per Person in Dollars
Adjusted to Purchasing Power the only benchmark you can judge an
economy by? I asked for GNP figures, and you keep parroting something
else because it supports your theory. I presented several figures
which do not support your theory, and you chose to ignore them. Who's
'straw-man'ning who?

Now, for the last time, would you comment on this:

GNP:	Greece: $6900		Turkey: $1700		[1990].

> >Get a Life Hasan.
> 
> Get a cup of Turkish coffee, 'Triantafyllopoulos.' By the way,
> how do you remember your last name?

If you had devoted a bit more in actually talking to Greek people as
opposed to flaming them left & right, you'd know by now that Greek is
infinitesimally simpler than most other languages to spell once you
know how to pronounce it.  Trianta means thirty, only one way to spell
it. Fyllo means petal, hence no mispelling with filo (filos=friend).
Triantafyllo actually means rose. So far no chance to mispell. 
Poulos is the generic Greek suffix meaning son-of. As for coffee, I
prefer Folgers. 

> Hasan B-) Mutlu [plus obligatory Road Kill signature]. 

PS: I saw from the message header that your message has been cross-posted
across half the known universe. I trust my message was cross-posted as
well? I stated quite clearly that I have no access to other news
groups. If my message was cross-posted in its entirety, I complement
you or whoever did it. If not, so be it. As David Bowie said, "It's
hard to be a Saint in the City".

'Spiros'
--
'Spiros' 'Triantafyllopoulos'                c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       c23st@deaes.uucp 
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]