From: dleon@seas.smu.edu (David Leon)
Newsgroups: houston.general,tx.politics,rice.politics
Subject: Re: Anti-choice vs. Pro-abortion (was Re: Houston Defending Choice Coalition needs you)
Date: 22 Aug 92 22:26:05 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: School of Engineering and applied science; S.M.U.; Dallas, Tx

In article <1992Aug21.041311.18486@cactus.org> rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.144033.2939@menudo.uh.edu> moore@uhibpd.phys.uh.edu (Lorra L. Moore) writes:
>>>>I have one more 'I will agree with a prolife sentiment when,'  when
>>>>there isn't one more child on the face of this planet that starves to
>>>>death, or sits in a orphanage wanting with all its heart to have loving
>>>>parents, when there isn't one more unwanted child born into a family.
>>>
>>>Being unhappy or poor isn't punishable by death, the last time I checked.
>>
>>What a great life to commit a child to.  You are really sick.  Do you
>>enjoy watching people suffer in misery?  Do you like hanging around
>>ghettos and the wards watching people beg and debase themselves?  Do you
>>get off to it?
>
>I lived outside this country for a long time, have visited many desperately 
>poor countries, and seen more wretched poverty than you can possibly compre-
>hend.  Whatever problems even the desperately poor have, they are alive, 
>they adapt, and they even have the ultimate potential to change their state.  
>Have you considered that your perceptions of "crushing poverty" may be a 
>byproduct of your middle-class *fear* of the same?  I.e., by someone partaking 
>in the top 1% of the world's wealth, deciding whom, in the remaining 99%, 
>meets your criteria of who should or should not live.  

I have seen other countries and autrocities you could not imagine.  I have
seen mothers cutting off their infant son's hands so that the son could 
beg better.  If this is the high quality of life you are speaking of, I
have to disagree with you.
>
>Have YOU lived in poverty?  Do YOU know anyone who lives like that?  Or are 
>you basing your arguments on Sally Struthers' commercials, which most 
>certainly *don't* show the children *playing* in the shit-pools, or other-
>wise adapting to their poverty?
>
>I thought not: just another modern student-activist who shows up the pro-
>choice rally, does her "thang," jumps back in her BMW, and goes off to party.
>
I think youare flying a bit off the handle, first you ask what appears to be
a rhetorical question, and then let her have it.  Also, I think you are
going a bit overboard in your presumptions here.  Are you implying that 
because, as far as you know, she has never seen poverty, that she is not
sincere about her stance on this issue?  Doesn't that strike you as being
a bit pompous?

>
>>Have you ever talked to these people?  Have you ever asked them if they
>>are glad that they are alive?  Have you ever sat and talked to someone
>>that is suicidal because all their lives they were abused and unwanted?
>
>Yeah, so what?  The difference is that they eventually decide to blow their
>own brains out.  I don't make the decision for them.

You *ARE* making that decision for them by not allowing the mother to end
her pregnancy.

>
>Nah, you're quite right, Lorra.  The poor are *such* downers.  Gawd, I 
>can hardly bear to meet the eyes of the beggars on street corners, any
>more, don't you know?  Let's round 'em all up, march 'em into concentration
>camps, and put the poor wretches out of their misery, eh?  No way your
>white, middle-class children should grow up seeing such a thing, eh?  Out
>of sight, out of mind, even if it's six feet under.
>


Once again, you are twisting someone's responses.  This does not help
either side of the debate.  I don't belive Lorra ever mentioned that she
was a strong proponent of the sort of practices you describe.

>
>>Do you really sit in your little glass house and think 'they are really
>>just glad to be alive'.... 
>
>Yes.  When it's a choice of desperate poverty, or being marched into the gas 
>chambers by your kind, definitely yes.
>
 
 Once again, she did not mention killing people after birth.  I think the
 point was something to the effect of "as long as such dire poverty exists,
 should we use resourses to increase dire populations?"
 
 >
>>I think we have gotten into the basic difference.  I am not christian
>>and the constitution of this country gives me that freedom.  
>
>No, you're a college-educated sociopath, a spoiled little brat who's been
>educated beyond her intelligence, who has no capacity for human empathy. 
>A typical specimen of your kind.
>

Once again, this is totally uncalled for.  You claimed that she is a spoiled
little brat.  Is she a spoiled brat becasue she has ben (or is attending)
college?  Apparantly, she has strong feelings about this issue, does that
make her a brat?  She wishes to not *force* other human beings to be born
into a situation of severe poverty, yet you claim she is not empathetic.
You go further by saying she is a typical specimen of her kind.  She
merely expressed a strongly felt opinion.  Since her opinion does not match
yours, you insult her on a personal level...
>
>>I don't believe that having an abortion damns a soul to eternal
>>nothingness, I believe that it allows that soul to move onto another
>>vessel that, perhaps, will dwell under better circumstances.
>
>And, typical of children in your age group, you have this compulsion to
>rebel against authority, using "religion" as a sufficiently "traditional"
>symbol.  Fine, go and rant and rave.  But note that I never introduced 
>"religion" in my argument.  I simply find the concept of killing people, or
>*defending* the practice of killing people, on the basis of economic exped-
>iency, repugnant.  What's next?  How about killing the elderly, for the
>burden they put on society?  Why not kill the mentally ill?  How about AIDS
>patients?  Hell, they're gonna die anyway, why let them raise our insurance
>rates?  The stupid?  The ugly?  Et cetera, et cetera.  You're steering a very 
>dangerous course, both for yourself, and for society.
 
 You have an excellent point with this statement.  The slippery slope
 argument could easily apply to this situation. However, you are neglecting
 the fact that the groups of people are already born.  One of the central
 issues of this debate is what occurs before one is born.  It would be quite
 hard to extend the slippery slope argument beyond birth.  One example:
 the baby in Florida who was born without a brain.  The baby could not be
 an organ doner because it was physically alive (heartbeat, little/no brain
 activity).  Even though the infant's organs could have saved several lives,
 the baby had to die of natural circumstances.  It seems as the slippery
 slope becomes a little more sticky once a birth takes place.
 >
>Grow up.  Join the Army or the Peace Corps, see the world, grow a personality.
>Maybe we'll take you seriously, then.  
>

It is a shame that you would not take some seriously because their views
and experiences differ from yours.  Growing a personality is once agiain
a personal attack and does not belong in this debate.  I belive it was
not your intension to come off as a pompous intellectual snob.  Reread
your post and reconsider some of your comments.  For someone recommending
mental growth through new experiences, you should consider reducing the 
amount of childish outbursts.

>
>>So, it really comes down to this, if you believe that you are damning a
>>soul to eternal nothingness, then don't have an abortion.  That is your
>>choice and you can practice your beliefs all you want.  My beliefs,
>>which are supposedly protected in this country
>
>Supposedly?  Is anyone out to get you, Lorra?  Are we feeling a bit 
>*paranoid*, all comfy cozy in front of our CRT?
>

Have you forgotten about OR's constant attempts to close clinics which
offer abortion?  Have you not seen a barrage of Moss Foundation advertising?
Have you forgotten about the Republican platform?  In this instance, maybe
a little paranioa is justified.

>
>
>
>
>---
>Robert Dorsett
>rdd@cactus.org
>...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd

David L. Leon
dleon@seas.smu.edu
Xref: sparky houston.general:894 tx.politics:4312