From: downey@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re:  American Bashing
Date: 28 Sep 92 18:10:40 GMT
Organization: NIST


From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
>As someone else pointed out (which I already knew - such things
>do get covered in the British media) extreme Fundamentalists of
>the Pat Robertson sort are now very influential in one of the
>USA's two major political parties. We are not talking about a
>fringe influence here, and yes, many of us in Europe do find it
>scary, and it tends to push us into anti-Americanism.

I can understand this attitude because, I too am disgusted at the
influence of the ultra-conservatives (including the Fundies) on
the current administration.  It does seem to have a stranglehold
on George Bush.  In fact, the choice of Dan Quayle for VP is a
direct result of that influence.  I think there are many Americans
who recognize this influence, let's hope so!  I hope there are
enough who vote and make a change.  I didn't vote for Reagan or
Bush, and I have never voted for a Republican candidate because
I believe the ultra-conservatives and the Fundies have too much
influence on this political party.  I have always voted a Democaratic
or Independent ticket.

>No it is not. It is rooted in the fact that we have seen how
>nationalism has contributed to wars, death, imperialistic
>conquest, suppression of minorities, racism and many other evils.
>Nationalism of the sort which Americans find natural and
>unexceptional is in Europe regarded as the height of bad
>manners, boorish and dangerous.

I don't believe I supported or talked about this kind of nationalism.
Remember I said, ours is not a blind patriotism.   I think we are talking
about two different kinds of patriotism and nationalism. We have
different definitions.

From:  cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke) 
>Patriotism in Western Europe used to be associated with Empires and
>consequently with murder, rape, looting in the third world.  People don't
>like that sort of thing any more, so they often feel embarrassed to be overly
>patriotic about their country.  To European eyes, a very patriotic American
>seems to automatically approve of all the despicable things the USA has done
>to some other nations.  I doubt that's true of many Americans, but it can
>easily look that way from outside.

>(This only applies to patriotism and nationalism for nations which were
>around and active in colonial times; people feel freer to strongly support
>the new nations and the nations yet to come, I think.  Less negative
>associations.)

Chris, I appreciate the fact that you didn't lump all Americans into your
above statements.  There are many of us who vehemently disapprove of the
above definition of patriotism.  If this is the general definition of
patriotism that Europeans use, then I can certainly understand the
ofjection to the word.

By the way, it seems that the US is being touted as an awful monster
that has done many despicable things to other countries.  I would be
blind if I didn't realize that our country has certainly done some
terrible things, but let's not forget that other countries have done many
terrible things also, some less, some more.  This of course does not
justify any of those terrible actions by any country.

From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
(from an earlier comment by downey@enh.nist.gov)
>>As an American, it is difficult for me to understand why anyone
>>would be embarassed about nationalism.  Many Americans are very
>>patriotic; it is part of our culture.  We do cherish our freedom,
>>especially our freedom of speech.  I agree with Suzanne, standing
>>up for what you believe in is a fundamental in American society.
>>I'll also agree with you, I believe you made an earlier observation
>>that our cultures our different and so they are.  Let me also make
>>one other point, Americans can be proud of their country and still
>>recognize the many problems we have to solve.  Ours is not a
>>blind patriotism.

>Well, your above statement reinforces what in Suzannes statement looks - 
>to be honest - a bit weird from a British point of view.

OK, from others and your comment, I'll concede that it looks weird from
a British point of view as I now think I understand what Europeans mean
when they use the terms patriotism and nationalism.

>What should "loving" your country" and "standing up for what you believe
>in" be related at all? It is embedded in plenty of cultures that one
>should "stand up for what you belive in" for goodness sake!!

Morna, I never used the phrase "loving your country," those were Suzanne's
words.  Quite frankly, I am very upset with many things in our country and
I do my best to make a difference any way I can.  However, I think most
people do have some, (let's see what word should I use?), feeling or
preference for where they reside, or else they would move somewhere else.
As far as "standing up for what you believe in," I'm not so sure this
has always been embedded in many cultures, but the US was founded on this
premise, so it is integral to our society.  One last thing, I did not
associate "loving your country" with "standing up for what you believe in."
"Standing up for what you believe in," is more associated with individual
rights, which is another integral part of American society (at least in 
principle).  There have certainly been many infringements upon individual
rights in America and throughout the world.

>I stand up for what I believe in ( I hope ) but that's got nothing to do
>with whether I "love my country" or not. It's surely not an obvious fact
>that there's anything good about "loving your country" at all, no matter
>which country it is.

I'll agree with you here.  See my above comments.  And, I commend you
for standing up for what you believe in. 

>People who "love their countries" don't tend to be terribly attached
>to the black populations of those countries for example.

This is a very big generalization.  If you are referring to racist,
neo-nazi, facists groups, etc., though, I definitely agree.

(These are general statements and not a response to anyone in
particular.  LLD)
I think this whole discussion regarding American bashing, etc., has
in one sense been difficult because Europeans see the words, patriotism,
nationalism, and love as superlatives, or just words that embody or 
invoke a very different meaning than the way I or others view these words.

I'm not blind to American problems but neither do I enjoy being the
recipient of anti-Americanism.

From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
>It is also associated, in a way which the patriotic
>expressions from the USA we have heard here have not been,
>with such things as race, religion and language, and thus
>unlike USA patriotism seems to deliberately exclude recent
>immigrants.

Thank you Matthew for including this statement.  You are correct,
my definition of patriotism does not include any type of discrimination
based on race, religion, language, etc.  America, after all, is a country of
immigrants, my family included.

Laura
downey@enh.nist.gov

P.S.  Anybody ready to talk about something Irish, Scottish, Celtic,
etc?  :-)  :-)  I'm doing a paper for my Women in History class about
Women of the Celts.  I have the book by that name.  Any other
suggestions?  You can e-mail me directly if you want.

P.S.S.  I don't have any problem with a group called
soc.culture.scotland.  I'll just subscribe to both groups.
I'm interested in present day issues about different countries
(Ireland, the UK, etc.) as well as Celtic culture in general.
However, I don't mind if we talk about present and past on
scc, which it seems we do.  My objective is to learn and to
periodically contribute meaningful discourse. 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic