From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Jesus is a Prophet, not Son of God
Date: 13 Nov 92 14:07:45 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <92316.132744RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com writes:
|In response to Richard Pitts on what does the Qur'an say about Jesus:
|       The Qur'anic account of Jesus and his teachings differs considerably
|       from that of the NT (even the four canonical gospels themselves differ
|       among themselves on several accounts). Some of the key points are that
...

I didn't ask where are they different.  The Quran gives evidence that 
Jesus is different than all other people - that he was born of a virgin
and was himself sinless.

|       As can be seen from above, Muslims believe that Jesus was born to virgin
|       Maryam. Maryam doubted how could such a thing be happening, yet God
|       assured her that for God it is very simple, He simply had to say His
|       word "Kun", and it will be done. Of course, when Jesus was born without
|       a father, the people around Maryam questioned her chastity, accusing her
|       of bringing a bastard son. In reply, she pointed to her newly born son,
|       who spoke from the cradle:
|          "He (Jesus) spoke: Behold| I am the servant of God. He hath given me
|           me the scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet. He hath made me
|           blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and
|           alms-giving so long as I remain alive; And (hath made me) dutiful
|           toward my mother, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest. Peace be
|           on the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be
|           raised alive|  Such was Jesus, son of Maryam; that is a statement
|           of truth concerning which they doubt." (Qur'an 19:30-34)
|
|           Contrary to the above message that Jesus was dutiful to his mother,
|           the gospel of John (2:1-10) suggests that Jesus was disrespectful
|           of his mother by addressing her as "WOMAN", as if there are no good
|           words in the vocabulary of Jesus for calling a person who had carri-
|           ed him for more than 9 months, and perhaps suckled him for two years
|           and who was even accused of fornication/adultery.

Perhaps you need to read where Jesus points out that all who do the
will of the Father is His (Jesus') brother, sister AND mother.

Jesus made clear that his mother was not to have undue honor, but all 
that followed God were of equal stature.

|           What was the mission of Jesus? Was it different than other Prophets
|           of God, who had passed away before? No.

Was he not the MESSENGER OF THE NEW COVENANT?  Malachi 3?  You know
there was a new covenant coming for the Scriptures, which you are 
encouraged to read.

|            "And We caused Jesus, son of Maryam, to follow in their footsteps,
|             confirming that which was (revealed) before him, and We bestowed
|             on him the Injil wherein is guidance and light, confirming that
|             which was (revealed) before it in the Taurat - a guidance and an
|             admonition unto those who ward off (evil)." (Qur'an 5:49)

He was THE light of the world - not a light.

|           "And when Jesus, son of Maryam, said: O children of Israel| Behold|
|            I am the messenger of God unto you, confirming that which was
|            (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a
|            messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad. But when he
|            hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere
|            magic." (Qur'an 61:6)

Where in the Torah does it prophecy one who would tell of Ahmad?????
The Scriptures tell of a coming one - there is a messenger, but
that messenger was John the Baptist (Malachi and Isaiah).  The one
coming Malach 3 is THE LORD ALMIGHTY - he is the messenger of the
new covenant.

The Torah tells of one who will crush Satan - the seed of a women,
which was Mary's Son.  Jesus was the one prophecied - HE IS THE FULFILLMENT
of prophecy.

|            Contrary to the above message about announcing the coming of a
|            Prophet after him, whose name is Ahmad (Muhammad Ahmad al-Mustafa
|            al-Amin), we find John 14:16 to state that Jesus spoke about
|            coming of a Parakletos (comforter), not a Periklytos (meaning
|            praised one, or Ahmad or Muhammad in Arabic). John 14:26 also
|            identifies the Parakletos as Holy Ghost.

Contrary???  Only if the Holy Spirit didn't come and the coming comforter
was to be Ahamd.  However, the holy spirit did come and it is not Ahamd.

|            What was the fate of Jesus vis-a-vis the so-called crucifixion?
|            The Qur'an admonishes those who say that Jesus died or was
|            crucified:
|                      "They slew him (Jesus) not, nor crucified him, but it
|                       appeared so unto them; and behold| those who disagree

What does this mean "it appeared so"?

|                       concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no
|                       knowledge thereof save pursuit of conjecture; they
|                       slew him not for certain. But God took him up unto
|                       Himself. God is every Mighty, Wise." (Qur'an 4:157-158)

Maybe you have it confused?  Maybe Jesus' resurrection is what you
are referring to.  He did die and rose from the dead - this could lead
people to think that he never died, but those who were there tell us
that he did.  Does the Quran agree that Jesus was nailed to the cross -
it is hard to tell from the above passage.

|            Muslims maintain that the virgin birth of Jesus without a father
|            was not any more supernatural than the creation of Adam, who
|            neither had a father nor a mother:

BUT IT IS DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER BIRTH.  Why would the next to last
prophet in Islam be born this way?  Maybe he was God's son - God in human
flesh - the fulfillment of ALL prophecy.

|               "Behold| The likeness of Jesus before God is the likeness of
|                Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him, "Be" (kun)
|                and he was." (Qur'an 3:59)
|
|                "..... , and the Christians say: The messiah is the son of God.
|
|                 That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the
|                 saying of those who disbelieved of old. God (Himself) opposes
|                 them. How perverse are they|" (Qur'an 9:30)
|
|                "The messiah, son of Maryam, was no other than a messenger,
|                 messengers (the like of whom) had passed before him. And his
|                 mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat(earthly)
|                 food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; yet see
|                 in what ways they are turned away." (Qur'an 5:78)

Is this saying Jesus and his mother turned away from the Lord?

|                 The Qur'an condemns any attribution of divinity to either
|                 Jesus or his mother:

I agree his mother was not devine.

|                   "And when God saith (namely, Jesus on the Day of Judgement):
|                    O Jesus, son of Mary| Didst thou say unto mankind: take me
|                    and my mother for two gods beside God? He saith: (God) be
|                    glorified| It was not mine to utter that to which I had
|                    no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knowest it. Thou
|                    knewest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy
|                    mind. Behold| Thou, only Thou, art the knower of Things
|                    Hidden. I speak unto them only that which Thou commandest
|                    me, (saying): Worship God, my Lord and your Lord. I was a
|                    witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou
|                    tookest me Thou was the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness
|                    over all things." (Qur'an 5:119-120)
|
|In the above, I have just quoted a few verses from the Qur'an to show what
|Muslims believe concerning Jesus, i.e., Jesus was  a Prophet and that he did
|not preach his either being the literal (or whatever it means) son of God, or

Oh.  Again do you believe God is coming?  

|God, and that he did not die nor was he crucified, rather he was ascended to
|heaven alive (probably like Elijah or Enoch). According to sayings of our
|Prophet Muhammad Ahmad (SAWS), we, Muslims, believe that he will return towards
|the end of time and will die after bringing justice and peace on earth. This

Why will he die - who do you believe will not see decay according 
to the Scriptures?

|is our belief. And of course, our understanding about Jesus quite significantly
|vary from the NT. As such, we reject the authenticity of the NT, it is not
|inspired by God. The Qur'an says about NT:
|     "Therefore, woe be unto those who write the scripture with their hands and
|then say "This is from Allah", that they may purchase a small gain therewith.
|Woe unto them for that what their hands  have written, and woe unto them for
|that they earn thereby." (Qur'an 2:79)

How do you get this speaks about the NT?  We sure don't claim it is from
Allah, but Jehovah - THE LORD ALMIGHTY.  Maybe this admonition is for
those who wrote something else.  

|Siddiqui.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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