HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Apr12.014433.29249@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
	<JIME.92Apr12001214@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr12.070834.2636@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Date: 13 Apr 92 00:15:41

In article <1992Apr12.070834.2636@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>   In article <JIME.92Apr12001214@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>   # In article <1992Apr12.014433.29249@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>   # If the Israeli soldiers didn't fire the guns, the Palestinians
>   # wouldn't be killed.  All the Israeli government has to do to stop the
>   # killings is to change their policies of crowd control in the occupied
>   # areas.
>
>	   This is an absurdity.  If the parents would stop sending children
>   out to throw stones, the Israeli soldiers would not fire guns.  After
>   all, how many stone throwers were fired on before there were stone
>   throwers?

Now that we have pretty much delimited the two poles of the argument,
the true state of affairs must lie somewhere in between.  Both the
Palestinian rock-throwers and the Israeli policy for dealing with the
intifada are responsible for the deaths.

>   #  The present policy for controlling the intifada by force,
>   # might, shootings, and beatings has failed.  The Israeli government
>   # must realize this by now, but they are unwilling to change their
>   # tactics.
>
>	   I agree it has failed.  The Israeli government has been to soft,
>   weak, and whimpy, which has only encouraged more "palestinian?"
>   violence.

An interesting opinion.  In 1989 Israeli IDF Chief of Staff Shomron
said "People ask why we don't end the intifada.  Anyone who wants to
end the intifada must remember that there are only three ways to
achieve this:  transfer of the Arab population of the areas,
starvation, or physical elimination - that is genocide."  Which of
these or any other less wimpy policies would you support?

>   # After all, the Israelis have no consciences, they feel no guilt about
>   # the ~1000 Palestinians shot to death since 1988.  (sarcasm)
>
>	   Whether or not this is true, false, sarcastic or not is irelevent.
>   It is relevent, however, that "palestinian?" parents are commiting
>   child abuse.

Statistics which make you uncomfortable you label as irrelevant.

>   # Huh?  Haven't you heard, the Israeli military occupies the West Bank,
>   # the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights, in contravention of UN
>   # resolutions.  That makes them the occupationists.
>
>	   They are there because of wars and threats that were and are Arab
>   originated.  UN resolutions are nothing more then organized political
>   bigotry in this case.

So now the UN and most of the world is wrong?  Wake up and smell the coffee.
--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
From: jon@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Jonathan Gingerich)
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 16:52:56 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.232215.21465@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (perlman eric) writes:
>In article <JIME.92Apr14165943@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>>...
>
>Jim, this has been discussed before in tpm.  The occupation does not go
>against international law.  There have been a number of GA resolutions
>railroaded through which demanded a unilateral end to the occupation,
>but UNGA resolutions don't have the force of international law, and also
>those resolutions contradict the wording of UNSC 242 and 338, which talk
>about territorial compromise as a part of a peace plan, not unilateral
> withdrawl.
Fine, but let's remember that the Green Line is itself a territorial
"compromise", and only the Arab portion of the Palestine partition is
compromised (except international Jerusalem.)
>
Jonathan
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.abortion,dc.general
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Re: Crowd size at abortion rights march
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 11:41:00 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.123705.16039@access.digex.com>, jamie@access.digex.com (James Treworgy) writes...
>Just curious... how did you arrive at this estimate? As a good comparison,
>RFK stadium holds 70,000 people.  I think one can safely say there were
>a HELL of a lot more people on the mall than you could fit in RFK stadium.

I stand by my estimate of 130,000 at the march, acquired from
various vantage points at the Capitol end of the Mall. I was not
at the Ellipse, so I don't know how many people were there
before the march. If there were 500,000 or more there, then 75
percent of them went elsewhere than to the east end of the Mall.

I called NOW and asked them if the signatures would be available
for inspection and this is the essence of their answer: They
haven't been counted and are still being gathered (!). They'll
be sent in from state NOW offices. They won't be available for
public inspection... Hey, I'm still pro-feminist, pro-Choice, and
pro-NOW. You better believe me!

Estimating the size of the crowd from the ground was easier than 
for a lot of demonstrations. The stationary crowd was seated on
the Mall in a rectangular area. I looked at the densest clusters
of people and it looked like 10 people per 100 square feet, and
that's being generous.  Then I estimated the ratio of open grass
to seated people in the various sectors of the Mall. Where
people were standing, I called that 20 people per 100 square
feet. I divided the crowd up into sectors of various density and
got the areas from a map. 

As for the moving people, they were all coming down the march
route on 7th Street by 2:30 PM. By 3:00 the Mall crowd wasn't
getting any larger, so people must have been leaving at the same
rate they were marching in, and indeed, people were streaming
westard along the Mall. I made three or four estimates of the
rates of inflow on 7th Street, using a stopwatch. The highest I
got was 500 per minute. The inflow had ended by 4:00 PM, but I
allowed two full hours of "throughput" at 500 per minute and
added this to my estimate of 70,000 on the Mall to get my total
of 130,000. 
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3331 talk.politics.misc:17876 talk.politics.mideast:10638 soc.misc:476
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:13:47 GMT

In article <JIME.92Apr13012616@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>You still haven't answered the question.  Let me summaraze what I
>think you are saying: "Israel is the first local non-imperial power in
>modern history to allow freedom of religious expression."
>
>My question is: What other local (to Jerusalem, I guess) non-imperial
>power in modern history are you comparing Israel to?

Try "every other country in the middle east, including Jordan when it
controlled the West Bank and part of Jerusalem".
--
This is a newer version of the memetic .signature infection.  Now that's an
idea.  Copy it into your .signature today!

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines
From: vos@helix.nih.gov (Peter Vos)
Subject: Arthur Ashe and USA Today:  What happened to simple decency?
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 01:01:07 GMT

I think that USA Today has committed an unforgivable act.
They have maliciously and intentionally invaded Mr. Ashe's privacy.
They have knowningly inflicted pain and suffering on him and his family.
They have no good justification for this exercise in yellow journalism.
Mr. Ashe is no longer a public figure.  He is not active in political,
commercial, or athletic venues where any (even weak) claims can be
made that the public has a "right to know".  I think it is a crime that
a man who has ALWAYS carried himself with dignity both on the court and off
should be laid low by opportunistic miscreants working for a cartoon tabloid
that panders to the worst instincts of its semi-literate customers.
There is no pressing issue here that needs to be revealed for public
consumption NOW.  There is no justification of first amendment rights
OBLIGATING USA Today to wreak havoc on Mr. Ashe and his family.  
Someday Mr. Ashe will die.  Then, the facts presented in the
context of an obituary that paid homage to a truly great American would be
relevant.  Then, one could say "How horrible.  He deserved better."  But this
wanton assault is degrading and disgusting.  
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3475 soc.misc:597 talk.politics.mideast:11019 talk.politics.misc:18552
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: King David Hotel bombing
Date: 17 Apr 92 05:44:26 GMT
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ

In article <167CBA3F2.MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com> MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Jim McMaster) writes:

# In article <1992Apr14.175801.18171@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
# makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >In article <JIME.92Apr14103413@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

# ># In article <1992Apr14.050948.24611@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# ># >   In article <JIME.92Apr13011518@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

# ># >   # I guess your definition of terrorist act is different from most
# ># >   # people's.  The bombing of the King David Hotel is considered one of
# ># >   # the top terrorist actions of the era.

# ># >	   Very few people, even among those who mistakenly called the Irgun
# ># >   and Stern gangs terrorists, label that bombing as terrorist.  You
# ># >   obviously do not know even the most elementary details of that
# ># >   incident.

# ># Au contraire, Pierre.  The King David Hotel bombing was clearly a
# ># terrorist action.  A military action wouldn't have been preceded by a
# ># telephone call telling the people to get out.  (In this case, some may
# ># find it curious that a military action would have been more brutal,
# ># but c'est la guerre.)

# >	You are being an imbecile here.  Let us assume for the sake of
# >argument that the King David hotel bombing was not a military action.
# >That still does not make it a terrorist action.

# The same old quandary.... If you disagree with the person's ends, he
# is a "terrorist".  If you agree, he is a "freedom fighter".  This
# applies equally to the Irgun as the PLO.

	You seem to have missed the point, irregardless of what you
believe about the Irgun (actually, anyone who tries to compare the
legitmate Irgun with the terrorist PLO as you have in your quandry is
either ignorant or lying), this one action (the bombing of the King
David hotel) cannot in any way be considered a "terrorist" attack by
any reasonable definition.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 23:50:44 GMT

># >   # Transfer to where?  You support the uprooting of a people from their
># >   # homes, and deportation to a land foreign to them?
>
># >	   It is not a pleasant situation.  However transfer is much better
># >   than everyone LITERALLY killing each other.  Do not give me any of
> 
Thank you Mr. Makowsky for your concern. Thank you for your humane thinking.
How do you feel if The arab ask all Jews to return back to Europe?

Nabil Idriss
>


Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3209 talk.politics.misc:17185 talk.politics.mideast:10369 soc.misc:423
From: jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: King David Hotel bombing
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Apr12.071510.2846@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
	<JIME.92Apr13011518@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr14.050948.24611@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Date: 14 Apr 92 10:34:13

In article <1992Apr14.050948.24611@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>   In article <JIME.92Apr13011518@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>   # I guess your definition of terrorist act is different from most
>   # people's.  The bombing of the King David Hotel is considered one of
>   # the top terrorist actions of the era.
>
>	   Very few people, even among those who mistakenly called the Irgun
>   and Stern gangs terrorists, label that bombing as terrorist.  You
>   obviously do not know even the most elementary details of that
>   incident.

Au contraire, Pierre.  The King David Hotel bombing was clearly a
terrorist action.  A military action wouldn't have been preceded by a
telephone call telling the people to get out.  (In this case, some may
find it curious that a military action would have been more brutal,
but c'est la guerre.)

--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3240 talk.abortion:14270 dc.general:696
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Date: 12 Apr 92 01:46:51 GMT
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Followup-To: s
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ

In article <1992Apr11.031237.7866@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:

# ># In article <1992Apr10.082142.7808@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (manu) writes:

	It was me, David Makowsky, who wrote this.  Your attribution is
wrong.

# ># As for the Palestinians sending their children out to fight the
# ># intifada, and thus being solely responsible for their deaths, that is
# ># a very one-sided view of the conflict.  You are spouting propaganda
# ># there.

# >	It may be propaganda, it may even be one sided, but it is the
# >truth an it goes a long way in explaining a major portion of the
# >intifada.  This view would have to play a strong part of any
# >description that was not propaganda and was not one sided also.

# There were no adults left to run the intifada - most of them are in prison.

	This is just plain stupid.  "no adults"? "most of them are in
prison"?

# Besides, do you think it is fair that palestinians without weapons face the
# Israeli army who is well armed?

	Fine.  Why don't we force all police departments to use only the
weapons that criminals use (although in drug cases, this may actually
be desired considering some drug dealers advanced weaponry).  Do you
think its fair that hundreds of stone throwers surround and stone cars
with Jewish civilians, often resulting in Jewish fatalities?  Do you
think it is fair that these same stone throwers often surround 1 or
two IDF soldiers, leaving them no choice but to shoot or be killed?
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
From: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Reply-To: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago, Dept of Molecular Genetics
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:14:58 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.235044.3175@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>># >   # Transfer to where?  You support the uprooting of a people from their
>># >   # homes, and deportation to a land foreign to them?
>>
>># >	   It is not a pleasant situation.  However transfer is much better
>># >   than everyone LITERALLY killing each other.  Do not give me any of
>> 
>Thank you Mr. Makowsky for your concern. Thank you for your humane thinking.
>How do you feel if The arab ask all Jews to return back to Europe?
>
>Nabil Idriss
>>
>
I would just like to say, for the record, that I personally am opposed to
any such 'transfer' of Palestinians from the territories.  Mr. Makowsky
represents a small minority of Israelis, and an even smaller minority
of Jewish supporters of Israel.  

Most Jewish supporters of Israel, and most Israelis are opposed to any
such 'transfer', and Mr. Makosky does not speak for them.  The vast majority
believe that Palestinians have a right to live there.  

The question of deporting INDIVIDUAL Palestinians, as a punishment for violent
actions against Israel, is another question entirely.

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3441 soc.misc:574 talk.politics.mideast:10895 talk.politics.misc:18387
From: jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:02:12 GMT
	<1992Apr14.232215.21465@colorado.edu>
	<JIME.92Apr14230116@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr15.170140.12162@colorado.edu>
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <1992Apr15.170140.12162@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (perlman eric) writes:
>   In article <JIME.92Apr14230116@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>   >The way the occupation is being run (deportation of elements of the
>   >local populace, construction of permanent settlements, ...) also goes
>   >against the Geneva Convention.
>
>   That's debatable.  Certainly I would like to see the job done better.

The Geneva Convention has injunctions against deportation of the
civilian populace in an occupied territory.  Similarly for the
construction of permanent buildings in an occupied territory.  Israel
has violated both of these provisions.

The only thing debatable is whether the Geneva Convention applies in
this case, not whether Israel goes against the Geneva Convention.
--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
From: matt@physics1.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines
Subject: Re: Crowd size at abortion rights march
Date: 12 Apr 92 06:45:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: physics1.MATT.92Apr12014558
Reply-To: matt@physics.berkeley.edu
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory (Theoretical Physics Group)
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: hypes@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com's message of Fri, 10 Apr 1992 20:34:33 GMT

In article <15830008@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com> hypes@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Gary Hypes) writes:

> I have no personal feeling for the crowd size, larger or smaller;
> however, I would certainly like to see "official" estimates from some
> organization with considerable less self-interest than NOW. 

You already have.  Most newspapers did not report NOW's estimates, or,
if they did, it was only several paragraphs down in the stories.  The
numbers that we all saw on the front page were not from NOW, but from
the park police.  

As a practical matter, of course, it is grossly unlikely that anybody
other than the police and the rally organizers would be willing to
take the trouble to do a careful estimate.  

Actually, what I would like to see whenever crowd size estimates are
reported is an error estimate as well.  



--
Matthew Austern              I dreamt I was being followed by a roving band of
(510) 644-2618               of young Republicans, all wearing the same suit,
matt@physics.berkeley.edu    taunting me and shouting, "Politically correct
austern@theorm.lbl.gov       multiculturist scum!"... They were going to make
austern@lbl.bitnet	     me kiss Jesse Helms's picture when I woke up.
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.mideast
From: ghassoun@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (George Hassoun)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.mideast,soc.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: (Control of the News Media)
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:36:48 GMT
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide


Hello Ralph,
I tried to contact you through private e_mail, my letter bounced
back.
Could you please post me (by e_mail) a copy of your recent article about
the control of the media in the States?

Regards (and sorry if i annoyed other netters)
-- 
George Hassoun
University of Adelaide, EEE Dpt.
Adelaide, South Australia
email: ghassoun@eleceng.adelaide.edu.au      Phone:(08) 228 5468
From: kotinis@aeras.uucp (John Kotinis)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines
Subject: Re: EURO DISNEY: Cultural Imperialism?
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:42:33 GMT
Reply-To: aeras!kotinis@sun.COM (John Kotinis)
Organization: Arix Corporation, San Jose, CA.

In article <317@slc1.UUCP> ta@slc1.UUCP (Tony Alicea) writes:
>I AM SO HAPPY THAT FRANCE & EUROPE ARE GOING TO ENJOY OUR GREAT
                                                           ^^^^^
>CULTURE BECAUSE, AS ANYONE KNOWS, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY, RIGHT? WE
^^^^^^^^ 
>HAVE THE WHOLE OF 200 YRS.+ AND THEY WHAT!? THOUSANDS?...
>.................

YES. IT'S REALLY GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.mideast,soc.misc,alt.activism
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: THE HOLOCAUST REVISIONISTS:  HOW MANY ARE STUPID?
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 14:55:16 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to ralphw@b-cpu.UUCP (Ralph Winston):
>From _The Daily Northwestern_
>(Northwestern University's newspaper),
>Thursday, April 4, 1991:

It was a PAID ADVERTISEMENT, not editorial content.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
      "Informix 4GL is not a 4G, and it's barely an L."  -- John Tombs
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3432 soc.misc:567 talk.politics.mideast:10865 talk.politics.misc:18347
From: lazarus@ocf.berkeley.edu (Andrew J. Lazarus)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:20:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.shol5INNprd
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: tsunami.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Apr14.050948.24611@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>	It is not a problem when dealing with reasonable people.  At any
>rate, I am not denying that there was Jewish terrorism.  It is just
>that the extent, and its value, have been grossly exagerated by those
>like yourself.

In fact Yitzhak Shamir boasted of being a terrorist (against
the British). It's only recently that he has become such
an anti-terrorist absolutist.

andy
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3293 talk.abortion:14455 dc.general:717