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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:30:08 -0600
From:         JSTROH@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject: Re: LD, Standard English, exclusion, and elitism

Just for the record, some people with LD do have difficulties with speaking.
I have a mild LD which is specific for language acquisition.  Learning to
pronounce new words has taken as much as three years, even when I can spell
them correctly.  As a rule, I can write new words before I can hear or speak
them.
Jeanne Stroh
JSTROH@cudnvr.denver.colorado. edu
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:54:27 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: "Higher?" Education in El Paso

I want to make it clear that my comments on the commitment of UTEP faculty to
language learning (and I indict myself in that) does not extend to their full
intellectual life. It is a good faculty, very much committed to the community
and to improving the quality of life there. Anyone who came there with a "this
is the end of the earth attitude" quickly lost it as they were drawn into the
peculiar charm of the area (not experienced by folks passing through on the
interstate). What I was trying to point out is that the dynamic of the
relationship between the community and the university did not DEMAND
bilingualism of the faculty whereas the relationship between Walgreens and the
community did demand bilingualism among Walgreens employees. Sure, I agree
that we all ought to be bilingual, especially out here in the southwest, but
there are lots of other things we ought to do which are competing with the
things we have to do.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
From: HUNT@UNB.CA (Russ Hunt)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Standard English
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:41:45 GMT
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Comments:     <16DEC92.08343254.0027.MUSIC@UNB.CA>

Irv says:
> I want to push the issue a bit more.  To learn a new dialect (language),
> one has to learn more than the words, syntax, conventions of speech and
> writing.  The issue is really the way of seeing, isn't it.  That is,
> to learn _how_ to learn more ways of seeing.
     Right on, as we used to say.  That's why learning to write in
the various genres of written English is inseparable from being in
a community of people who converse in those genres.  Hooking this
back again to the discussion of "foreign languages," it's true that
we don't have communities of people speaking Danish or Italian
a half-day's drive away . . . but we've got communities of people
speaking cognitive psychology or biophysics or metallurgical
engineering or literary theory right there in the library, and
maybe right down the hall.
                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 10:52:17 -0500
From:         R_CONNORS@UNHH.UNH.EDU
Subject:      RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Long post for MBU-L (1)

My papers are almost all done, and I wanted to sign on quickly to thank
Gardner Campbell for his generous-hearted and generous-minded posting
about the grapholect debate.  He unpacked the emotional content of some
of Susanmarie's, Liz's, and Judy's replies in ways that I had not had
the heart to do; when you feel attacked or dismissed it's easier, I
find, not to study the stimulus too closely.

I prefer to continue to think that Susanmarie, Liz, and Judy had no
desire to silence me, dismiss my ideas, or hurt my feelings.  I come
away from Garder's fine rhetorical analysis chastened myself at how
easy to it is seem to be attacking ad hominem or carelessly dismissing
what someone else has said.

I've quoted this line from Lincoln on this net before, but it bears
endless repetition:  We are not enemies.  We must not be enemies.
Intellectual disagreement: endlessly.  Ad hominem dismissal or
careless imputation of corruption: never.  I am resolving for the
new year to try not to flame, not to impute opinions or positions
to people that they do not voluntarily state, not to dismiss anything
my friends say seriously as nonsense, and to assume that everyone who
speaks on the net is as serious about discussing moral and cultural
issues--in all their complexity--as I try to be myself.  When I'm
not trading old Firesign Theatre lines with mer, anyhow.

Thanks, Gardner.  And Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and Happy
Kwanzaa from snowy New Hampshire.

Best, Bob C.
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Posted-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 02:10:28 -0200
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 02:10:28 -0200
From:         "(Leland McCleary)" <mccleary@CAT.CCE.USP.BR>
Subject:      More Hypertext introductions

Where I got the best overview of hypertext, including discussions of
various early and current systems and reviews of psychological studies
on user response to hypertext sytems is Jacob Nielsen's _Hypertext and
Hypermedia_, Academic Press, 1990.  For a short narrative account of
hypertext, I was impressed by "The Origins of IBM LinkWay", Appendix I
of Harrington, Fancher and Black's _IBM LinkWay: Hypermedia for the PC_.
I would be interested in hearing of other's favorite introductions.
--Leland McCleary <mccleary@cat.cce.usp.br>
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 07:24:14 -0500
From:         Joe Essid <ESSID@URVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Wcenters & Politics

Allene:

My reply might be more appropriate for Wcenter, but our case also
involved classroom technology, so it works for MBU too.

Bill Condon is absolutely correct.  Our Wcenter was under the
"hegemony" of the English dept., which was good as long as we had
a chair supportive of comp., collaborative tutoring, and classroom
technology.  Our Dean of Arts & Sciences knew that this situation
might not last, so he and the current chair worked to separate the WC
from the English Dept. and place it directly in his camp.

This sort of arrangement has proven VERY benficial for our WC.  As an
independent unit w/ its own budget, we can now build a "second-
generation" center with modern software, more tutors, and a solid link
to our WAC program.  In our case the Dean is likely to be around for a
long time, whereas we get a new chair of English next year.

We have worked long and hard to build the center's reputation as an
interdisciplinary facility.  Our move to Arts & Sciences has helped
more than all previous efforts.  We now work with almost as many
students from our interdiscip. "core course" as from our Freshman
comp. classes.

Being under a dean's wing may not work if the dean does not allocate
adequate funding or promotion for the wcenter.  We were lucky.

Joe Essid
Univ. of Richmond
Essid@urvax.urich.edu  // Essid@urvax.bitnet
"The guy with no text editor"
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 08:54:36 AST
Comments:     <17DEC92.09637529.0065.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Re: Standard English

Irv says:
> And farmtalk, huntin' talk, and jive right down the street.
     The people in my classes are already fluent in the first
two, and they ain't no jive down OUR street.
     What bothers me is that they COULD be immersed in other
dialects they don't know, but aren't.  You'd think, living in
residence and going to university, they'd be immersed in
academic written English, but they aren't -- even when they're
attending a place with a strong WAC program in place.  They
don't participate in communities which are conducted in that
medium (they DO participate in farming and huntin communities).
                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:53:10 EST
From:         Bill Condon <USERLCBK@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      Wcenters and politics

Allene,
fight the good fight!  If your Wcenter comes under the aegis of a department,
then not only will it inevitably take on that department's hegemony,
but it will also be perceived as having done so, whether it actually does
or not (does that make sense?).  Developing a Managerial Comm Ctr that
is independent of any one department but is supposed to serve all means
that the Center is more likely to be seen as a resource by faculty and
students in all departments than it would be if it is actually located
in a single department.  If the BSchool thinks that the Cetner is a valuable
resource for ALL its students, then it seems logical to me that it would
set up a structure that faculty and students would see as accessible to
them.
Good luck!
Bill Condon
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 08:27:01 -0600
From:         "(Gail E. Hawisher)" <hawisher@UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      1992 C & C Awards

Dear Megabunnies, Purtopoiers, Whoppers, and Wackers:

CALL FOR NOMINATIONS FOR THE  1992 ELLEN NOLD BEST ARTICLE AWARD

*Computers & Composition* Editors: Gail Hawisher and Cindy Selfe

Just wanted to remind everyone that the deadline for the 1992 Computers and
Composition Awards is January 15th. Although we are still taking
nominations for the Hugh Burns Dissertation Award, we are especially
interested in nominations for the Ellen Nold Best Article Award.

To be considered, entrants must submit two copies of the photocopied
article, specifying where the piece was originally published and why the
article merits this award.  Entrants may nominate their own work.  Letter
of nomination and photocopied article must be submitted by January 15,
1993. (You can, if you wish, send your nomination letter through e-mail.
I'd also be happy to find the article and photocopy it as well.)

Winners receive a cash prize of $150 and plaque noting their outstanding
scholarly contribution.  We will make these awards at the Ninth Computers
and Writing Conference in Ann Arbor, MI (May 20-24, 1993).  Please send
nominations to Gail.  Thanks!

Gail E. Hawisher 	       	       hawisher@uiuc.edu
608 S. Wright St.       	       	University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
Department of English   	       	217-333-2989 (work)
Urbana, IL 61801        	       	217-352-8031 (home)
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 11:03:47 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      student work with real audience

Perhaps this is not the kind of audience you have in mind, but our
department produces a "winning essays" booklet each year.  The booklet
includes about 20 essays of various rhetorical patterns and actual
research papers students have submitted.

Each comp teacher can submit 2 per class.  The essays undergo a
blind jury process (community people, various depts) and winners
are then selected and honorable mentions noted.  Student winners
actually get cash rewards for their winning/hm essays.

These are then printed up in a nice booklet format and are sold to
the following year's comp students for $1 -- and teachers use the
booklets in the teaching of their comp classes.  The $1 pays for the cost
of the booklet plus the prize money (usually $25).

Nancy Ellis
nse2@ra.mstate.edu
Mississippi State Univ
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Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 11:35:31 MST
From:         Allene Cooper <IFCAC@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      wcenters and politics

Dear mbu, wpa, wac, and wcenter friends: Could you help me clarify my
own thinking and then marshall some arguments on an issue that is
quickly developing in my neck of the woods?  Maybe you will remember that
last year I opened a wc in the college of business.  I did this while
working for our wac program and I simply put 16 hours of tutors midday
in a carrel in the graduate TA offices.  We've had great success.  I now
have a lovely office suite donated from the Bus Admin department and 7
parttime tutors paid for from 4 different sources.  I recently sent a memo
up the COBusiness lines asking that the Business Writers' Workshop be
taken officially under someone's wing since it has proved itself now.
Trouble is: The Bus Admin department, I think, wants it.  They need something
successful to save their Communications classes and faculty from getting
cut.  They also want to change it to a Communications Lab by adding
oral presentation stuff (actually this was my suggestion at one time, but
now I'm having second thoughts as I envision writing getting the shaft and
students beginning to stay away as the lab gets more businesslike and less
friendly).  In addition, the MBA communications classes are the deepest
in the political doodoo and have been close to extinction for some time.
The Bus Admin people may change the focus of the Business Wrriters' Workshop
from an undergraduate one of idealism and improving students' writing to
an industry-driven-give-us-some-money MBA program kind of place that I really
don't like.  Am I merely being overprotective of my own baby or do I have
some real philosophical issues to face here?  I think what I want is this:
That the Business Writers' Workshop retain its individual identity and focus
on writing but that it become part of a Managerial Communications Center
in the College (not in a department), that it keep a friendly "unbiased
feedback" mission rather than becoming a directive mba placement service.
What say the rest of you?  What are the arguments for having a wc under
the highest administrative unit- college rather than department, university
rather than college?  What are the arguments for keeping an undergraduate
focus (while helping graduate students, too, of course)?  What are the
arguments for keeping writing the focus (and in the name) rather than
being part of a larger learning center?

-- Allene Cooper
Dept. of Business Administration            (602) 965-3231
Ass't Director, Writing Across the Curriculum  (602)965-3097
Arizona State Univ., Tempe, AZ 85287  BITNET: IFCAC@ASUACAD
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:01:12 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) But what can we isolated YouEssers do (10)

Robert
Yes, and I could drive from London to Istanbul in the time it takes me to drive
from Denver to my mother-in-law's in New Jersey (less, actually...).  But the
tragedy is that there could be many opportunities for multi-lingual interaction
in the US, with so many immigrants and so many pockets of vestigial ancestral
langauges (Polish, Finnish, German, and other language of early immigrants;
it's easy to find language-using opportunities for Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean,
Arabic, Hebrew, etc, etc. in our local communities right now.  Anyone who wants
to become a host family for students at an English Lanuge Institute or Intemnsiv
   e
English Program--and they are all over the country--can structure language
practice in Japanese,  and probably French and German too.  Anyone who wants
to volunteer at a local hospital or Adult Learning Source can practise Spanish.
I think the retaionship between the lanuae of journals and the carrying on of
foreign trade is a tenuous one, but I don't know a lot about it.  I have read a
   few
studies that suggested US companies may get the bad end of a deal because the
people they were negotiating with (Japanese; Chinese) were able to use both lang
   uages
and they were restricted to English.  But the issue is more centrally one of
respect for negotiating partners, which is greater when they can speak one's
language.  And speaking the lanugae brings us in closwer contact with the
culture, which allows us to better understad its consumers' needs.
I guess I've just been in so many overseas situations wher I've seen
Americans being laughed at for not knowing the language.  I found it very
encouraging this summer in Vietnam to meet many young Americans who spoke
Vietnamse very well; but I suspect when the country opens and the corporates
come in, they will be non-Vietnamese speakers.  In this context the presence
of so many Vietnamse Americans in the corporate sector will be a great help.
Liz
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:41:44 AST
Comments:     <12DEC92.14821516.0059.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      student work with real audience

Nancy Ellis says:
> Perhaps this is not the kind of audience you have in mind, but our
> department produces a "winning essays" booklet each year.  The booklet
> includes about 20 essays of various rhetorical patterns and actual
> research papers students have submitted.

     That certainly has the potential for at least getting the text
out of the closed circle between the author(s), editor(s) and
evaluator(s) and out into the world of socially embedded discourse
beyond.  But my guess is that it doesn't often produce the sort of
transaction I try to aim for, because of the sort of aesthetic or
evaluative framing -- I wouldn't look in a book of winning essays for
information I needed, or for reasons I ought to pursue some action
I'm contemplating.  I'd look there for models, perhaps, or enjoyment
-- legitimate enough, but I think I'd be reading rather differently
than I do when I pick up _Writing and Response: Theory, Practice
and Research to see what Martin Nystrand and Deborah Brandt have to
say that will illuminate my practice of responding to student
writing.  What I want is for my students to have the sort of experience
it is for Martin and Deborah if I bump into them at the C's and
continue the conversation that began (or was continued itself) with
reading their piece.
     One other consideration: I want it for everybody, not just for
the 20 students who least need the experience.  My hunch is that the
20 winners are winners largely because they already see written
language as dialogic in the way you can learn to see it by engaging
in dialogue by means of it.  (Sorry about that sentence, by the way;
I can't see an easy way to fix it, but I'm going to leave it
because it's an idea that seems important to me.)
                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:18:00 EST
From:         MLB14@PSUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: So much CS,
              so little time [LONG] (*COMP.COMP*) (2)

Jonathan,

What is "Mil-Std 2167/2167A"?

I think you're right; my experience in industry has shown that software is
rarely designed, and that it does indeed get written in a very haphazard, ad
hoc fashion.

It also seems that more often than not, producing documentation for software
(which was supposed to be on-line yesterday) rates very low on the priority
list.  It's a rare manager who understands either the need for good
documentation or the time it takes to produce it.


Marcy Bauman Penn State-Erie
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:37:23 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      oralects/dialects
              92 10:25 am

Liz:

I appreciated your last message re: Hirsch.  Admittedly scanning
the discussion, it seemed to me that the dialect/grapholect
distinction was misleading.  If there are oral-dialects, then there
are written-grapholects.  I suppose grapholects may be more
conservative (although I am not ready to grant that--I think of
radical shifts in poetry that may outstrip shifts in dialects); certainly
the nature of the distinctions among oral dialects and written
grapholects differ.  Maybe they differ in kind, but I'm not sure
they differ in degree.  Actually, when you think of it, the
written work has really been the vehicle of revolution.  Conservative?
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 12:18:15 CST
From:         "(Natalie Maynor)" <maynor@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      More on NEH Announcement

Thanks to a suggestion given me after I sent last night's announcement
about the list of 1993 NEH Summer Seminars, the information is now available
via gopher at gopher.msstate.edu as well as via anonymous ftp at ftp.msstate.
edu or isis.msstate.edu (or ra.msstate.edu).
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Return-Path: <smh@aal.itd.umich.edu>
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:48:17 EST
From:         smh@AAL.ITD.UMICH.EDU
Subject:      standard english/grapholects/stability

Liz,
Exactly.  This whole thread has encouraged me to re-think notions of
dialect and language change, historically and presently, and the relationshp
to rhetorical forms inherent in what we do.  I am in a reading group with
someone whose mother spoke Pennsylvania Dutch German, and when she went
to college a German professor made her feel so ashamed of her language on
the first day of class that she never spoke in that course again, she
stopped speaking her native language at home, and did not teach her language
to her children.  This discussion we've been having has helped me think
through ways to avoid these kinds of interactions with students, since
less egregious examples of this can occur all too easily.  I would hope
we'd all agree on that.
Susanmarie
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