HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Recoil Formula
Date: 21 Nov 92 23:35:07 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <9211200842.aa18675@TBD2.BRL.MIL> abrant@BRL.MIL (PFD|PPB) writes:
## So, using the formula:
##
##    Recoil =  ((Powder Wgt + Bullet Wgt) x Powder Wgt) / (80 x Gun Wgt)

#This seems to be neglecting the most important factor, velocity.
#There are three important factor that contribute to recoil:
#1) energy used to accelerate the bullet, 2) energy used to move
#the powder and gasses down the bore, 3) energy from the 
#gasses leaving the bore after bullet exit.

Actually, this should be momentum and not energy, and I think the second
contribution is small. 

However, the above formula does account for velocity, indirectly: The
powder weight and bullet velocity are related. A more complete derivation
would be:

P = momentum transfered = m(b)*v(b) + m(p)*v(p), where m() is the mass of,
and v() the velocity of either the bullet (b) or the powder (p).

v(b) = A*m(p), 
v(p) = B*m(p)

(at least approximately, and for some value of A and B)

P = m(p)*(A*m(b) + B*m(p))

v(g) = free recoil velocity of gun = P/m(g)
     = m(p)*(A*m(b) + B*m(p))/m(g)
     
Assuming that A = B (for no good reason...)

v(g) = A*m(p)*(m(b)+m(p))/m(g)

Which is the above formula. I'd personally consider free-recoil velocity
a poor measure of felt recoil. A good measure, in my opinion, needs
to include the duration of the recoil and the area over which the
_shooter_ feels the recoil (e.g. the area of the hand/shoulder in
good, firm contact with the gun.) The duration of the recoil would be
proportional to the action's cycle time (for a semi-auto) or one
over the free-recoil velocity (for other guns.) Using power density as a
measure, this would give:

E(g) = 0.5*m(g)*v(g)^2
     = 0.5*m(p)^2*(A*m(b) + B*m(p))^2/m(g)

Power(g) = E(g)/t 	where t is the recoil duration
	 = 0.5*m(p)^2*(A*m(b) + B*m(p))^2/(m(g)*T)       for semi-autos
         = 0.5*m(p)^3*(A*m(b) + B*m(p))^3/(m(g)^2*C)     for other guns
                                                         and some C

Pulling out as many constants as possible, 

Power density = (?) felt recoil
	      = (K*m(p)*(m(b) + J*m(p)))^2/(2*m(g)*T*A)		for semi-autos
	      = (K*m(p)*(m(b) + J*m(p)))^3/(2*m(g)^2*A*C)	for other guns

K = v(b)/m(p)
J = v(p)/v(b)
T = cycle time of semi-auto
A = (firm) contact area between shooter and gun
C = some constant depending on material of grips/stock/recoil-pad/etc...
 
                                                   Frank Crary
                                                   CU Boulder
From: efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Bersa PPK clone: Info wanted
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:09:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: JUTS.5fFN02cs2bsI01
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA



Anyone have any experience with the Bersa company, and/or more 
specifically, their PPK clone?? I have a chance to pick up a Bersa 
model .380 ACP, and am curious about reliability/accuracy, etc. 
Since it is new in box, I havn't shot it, but I have dry fired 
it, and the trigger pull is pretty good, considering (yeah, I know 
I said before that I thought the PPK family had terrible triggers, 
but this one is actually acceptable, and the price is right!!).

Anyone know anything about 'em??

Thanx in advance, Eddie

Don't tread on me..........................................I bite
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Eddie Kieger                             efk00@cd.amdahl.com 
For Pay:      System Design Engineer     Amdahl Corp.
              Bringing you better mainframe computers
For Fun:      "River Rat"                SBU-XI SPECWARGRU1 (USNR)
              Bringing hellfire and brimstone to a river near you!
From: jkh@whisker.lotus.ie (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:19:59 GMT
Organization: Lotus Development Ireland


	 17 shots and only 3 Hits!!!!  In the middle of NYC?  Where did those
	 other 14 rounds go?  Their lucky they didn't have 14 dead civilians
	 laying out on the street afterwards!  Send these guys back to the
	 Academy.  Better yet, make them take a NRA basic handgun class.

Umm, or better yet, off the force altogether.  This kind of gunplay is
simply ridiculous and the phrase "unacceptable conduct" doesn't go far
enough..

				Jordan
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Eye injuries from telescopic sights
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:33:19 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Nov17.151442.1164@amc.com> reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes) writes:

#The contributing conditions appear to be high-energy caliber, light
#rifle, high-power (and therefore low eye-relief) scope, and _maybe_
#inexperienced shooter.  

Um, I think it isn't essentially tied to 'high-power'...  High power
does reduce depth of field, but you should be able to get a long
focal length (i.e. long eye relief) high magnification optic...

While your statment is, I think, generally correct ... I also think that it
is really a 4 way trade off:  high-power vs. low-cost vs. field-of-view
vs. physical size of optics.   While the depth of field does get smaller 
as focal length goes up (high power), and this does contribute a little to
less eye relief, it can be offset a little by losing some field of view and
having a smaller aperature number (which for a given brightness
will require more glass up front gathering light ...).  All of this
is facilitated by more money spent ...

What does all this mean, then?  That you can theoretically get a long
eye relief bright high power scope, but if you want it to be cheap
forget it!  And that, most of the time most of the regular scopes
really available at your local store are likely not to be long eye relief
in the higher powers... 

So I'd add the 'polish point' that yes, high power glass does
come into it, but cheap high power scopes may be worse than
expensive ones;  scopes optimised for field of view are not 
likely to be optimised for eye relief, and most folks don't want
a 2" diameter scope ... I don't know of any laws of optics that
demand that high magnification must come with a short focal point,
but market forces may cause a coorelation...

Then again, most of what I know about optics is due to my photography
hobby and not due to any engineering experience... I could be dead
wrong on the optical theory and biased by what $1000 can do to buy
a lens that warps ones views of the laws of light ... ;-)

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: L667175@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 06 Rifle in Defense ( was Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns? )
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:12:04 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
In article <7624CA0F00001A29@UALR.EDU> hudson@ualr.edu writes:
#...
#BTW  They also have a choice in rifles of a Ruger Mini-14 or the Colt  AR15
#(which would you choose?).

This is an interesting choice. I always wonder when would one pick his
rifle for defense purpose, assuming he is a regular citizen and he has
other choices like handguns and shotguns. ( Noting the plural nouns ;)

When I took an AR15 shooting class from a cop, he told me the regular
stuff: I wish you would never have to use it for self-defense purpose.....
I'm wondering if you guys can give me a scenario in which I might want to
use a rifle instead of other weapons. Thanks.

David
--
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com
 Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing rounds
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:18:51 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

boardman%cancer.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Bob Boardman) writes:

#In article <9211172159.aa29855@s.s.ms.uky.edu>,
#         miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
##
##Don't forget to try the .223 SS109 round.
##Althugh not a "true" AP round, you'll find that the carbide "pennetrator"
##does quite nicely. :)
##
#	Well, I guess we can try some SS109 if we can find it, but I wasn't
#  very impressed by it at a shoot a year or so ago - a couple of guys had
#  just got some SS109, and were shooting it at a junk disk brake disk that
#  we happened to find.  The disk was maybe slightly thicker than 1/4"
#  (from memory), and their shots hitting it at a range of about 10 yards
#  only made slight "smears" on the surface, with no penetration at all.

    I don't know what you were shooting. But it wasn't SS109!
    I promise you that the carbide pennetrator will do more than
    "smear" the surface.
    I'm so confident that I'm going to try some on a disc rotor I 
    happen to have laying around. I also have a few hundred rounds of
    SS109 to play with (I'll only try a few though).
    A good way to tell if your round is SS109 is to use a magnet.
    See if the magnet will stick to the bullet. You can also pull the
    bullet and weigh/cut it. That little carbide "cone" is HARD!
    At the LEAST the SS109 should ding the metal REAL good. :)
    I'll let you know how it comes out,,, might go tomorrow morning. :)
From: jthst5+@pitt.edu (John T Haller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Lilliput automatics
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:47:03 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh




Well, I've ben sitting on this question for a while, so I think I'll
finally ask it.  Does anyone know anything about Lilliput semi-automatic 
pistols?  These guns are often featured as the favorite weapons of heroes
in Allistair Maclean novels. (Guns of Navarone, etc)  They were supposedly
of .21 caliber.  I am sure they weren't imported after 1968 due to GCA '68.
Prices? History? Performance (or the lack thereof)?  
     I liked AllistairMaclean novels enough when I was younger that I'd
consider getting one if the $ was right.
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: American Rifleman = Consumer Reports?
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:14:37 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <5888@rosie.NeXT.COM> robert_walton@NeXT.COM (Robert Walton) writes:
#
#In article <1992Nov14.175828.5451@henson.cc.wwu.edu>  
#n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#[edited stuff]
## 
## 	BTW, they also did a review on EEA's "windicator" revolvers, which
## have frames cast from zinc.  They mentioned nothing about zinc, but
## did say several times that they were made from "Zamak".  
## 
## I couln't believe it.  I felt like I was reading G&A or something.
## 
## 	What could an AR editor possibly have to gain by concealing from 
## NRA readers the fact that the review gun is a cast zinc "sns", ala  
#Jennings
## Raven and Bryco?   It's not like AR gets paid for positive reviews or 
## something, is it?
## 
## Jim Del Vecchio
#
, I was disappointed too.  I've never heard of Zamak before reading  
#the article.  I was also surprised they just didn't come right out and say  
#the Windicator pretty much stank, rather than beating about the bush.  I,  
#too, assume they probably don't have as much pressure from advertisers as  
#the other mags do [but maybe I'm wrong].
#
Actually the name Zamak has been in common usage for 40 years, that I know of,
and is the name of _one_ zinc alloy.  Therefore, in car parts or firearms,
Zamak is synonimous with zinc alloy/junk/potmetal/sleaze, and is _not_
a euphemism or attempt to portray a junk firearm as quality.

It's like describing a _particular_ stainless alloy as Monel. 

--------------deleted---------------


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: rmihara%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Randall A. Mihara)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks and Lead Bullets?
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:08:17 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility

In article <9211171648.AA02916@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:
#In the on-going debate between Glocks and the rest of the world, I've
#read a few posts indicating that one should NOT shoot LEAD bullets
#in their GLock.  What are the facts in this?  Does it apply to the .45 ACP
#also?  I am considering buying a .45 Glock, but I would be shooting
#re-loaded lead SWCs or RN most of the time.

I don't remember any notice in the instruction manual stating not
to use lead rounds.  In fact that was one reason I purchased a glock.
I have a Glock 21 and have just about fired a whole case of 1000 rounds
of Miwall 200 gr lead SWCs.  They feed very reliably.  I don't think
I'll buy anymore lead rounds, though, because the barrel is more difficult
to clean than for jacketed rounds...besides, I want to reduce my exposure
to lead.

#I assume firing handloads voids the Glock warrenty, but I'm also sure

firing handloads voids the warranty...especially for those daring/foolish
people that get inspired to make their Hydrashoks hotter:-)

Randy Mihara
rmihara@ocf.berkeley.edu
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun needed for wife
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:33:20 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <DENNIS_.39.0@NCSU.EDU> DENNIS_@ncsu.edu (DGA) writes:
#In article <kf2zcJW00WDKQ8IlMe@andrew.cmu.edu> jp45+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jim Thomas Park , Jr.) writes:
##	I am in need of a handgun for my wife. I own a Taurus 9mm model PT99.
##It has a  high capacity 15 shot clip. My wife likes it but it is to big
##for her to carry conceled. I would like to go with a semi-auto gun and
##high capacity if possible. I don't want to go below a .38 caliber if
##possible. I am going to have her try a snub nose 5 shot .357 magnum this
##weekend if the weather holds here in Pittsburgh. Any advice would be
##appreciated.

The snub nose is not what I'd choose.... a .357 in a snubby is a 
pain to shoot (recoil, noise, flash, ...) 

#Walther PPK/S, 9mm kurz (.380).  Small, good safety system, double 
#action, easy carry (very flat), works well at defense range.  There was a 
#lot of activity concerning Walthers a few days (weeks).  Use High Vel 
#hollow points for serious work.  
#
#Just a biased opinion.

Just a 'ditto' of that opinion.  The wife of a policeman friend uses
the Walther PPK/S .380 as her off-duty weapon (I'm not sure if she
is active duty or just reserve ...) and loves it.  He is a .45 Glock Man,
and finds it acceptable for his wife to bet her life on.

Heck, if it is good enough for James Bond, 007, it's good enough for me ;-)

(I'd be buying myself one for Christmas if it wasn't for the need to 
 plan purchases of Slick Willy Bait guns ... I know, t.p.g. ...)

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: rec.guns discussion
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:06:28 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <62038@mimsy.umd.edu> magnum@cs.umd.edu writes:
#WHOA!!
#
#Folks, I'm in something of a dilemma here.  I promised a week's window of
#opportunity for the readership to discuss our forum; but the response is
#overwhelming (in many more ways than just net bandwidth), and I am concerned
#to respect our netnews carriers who don't normally process this level of
#traffic.
#
#
#Unless we see substantial departure to how the response has come so far, 
#then I predict we'll keep on business as usual, but with renewed emphasis on
#development of a decent FAQ (a very constructive point brought up in several
#notes).
#
#
#MODERATOR
#rec.guns
#

Dear Mr. Moderator,

I would like to register a negative vote. Not that I have any complaint
with what you are doing or with the group in general. It is great.

But, I just didn't want that poor bastard to feel all alone.

Best regards,

geoff kotzar

[MODERATOR:  Okay, I promised to let through anything other than the
positives, and so here it is.  For what its worth, the week window I
had suggested for comment and suggestions is about over.  So let's call
it a wrap and get back to tech talk.....]
From: steffen@stud.cs.uit.no (Steffen Baeroe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Small revolvers (was autos) for carry
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:10:31 GMT
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway

In article <lairdb.721619498@crash.cts.com>, lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:
|> In <9211120137.AA02142@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> syoung@pecanpi.UUCP (Stan Young) writes:
|> #In article <1992Nov10.062351.13270@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
|> 
|> #Well, the good news is that they made a version - the 3913N - that was the
|> #same frame as the LadySmith 3913, but it doesn't have the LadySmith name.
|> #The bad news is that according to a report I read a while back, when S&W
|> #cut back on the number of guns they make, they cut out both the 3913N and
|> #the LadySmith semi-auto.
|> 
|> Speaking of Smith, I thought they had an SP101 equivalent, but I was at the
|> store today, and we couldn't find anything even remotely similar in their
|> lists.  I'd really like an SP101, but I'd really like *not* to give any 
|> money to Mr. Bill.  (I'd *really* like to find someone who wants to sell
|> an SP101.... :-)
|> 
|> Any recommendations for similar?
|> 
|> -- 
|> Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
|> Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!

Excuse an ignorant european, but what is all this about Bill Ruger?
It seems to me that so many people have so much against the man!
Is there a story about him that us europeans should know about??

steffen@stud.cs.uit.no

	[MODERATOR:  Since we have hashed through this at least twice
	 in fairly recent history, I propose that the readership reply
	 to Steffen off-line with explanations...... please?  ]
From: jp45+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jim Thomas Park , Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gun needed for wife
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:06:48 GMT

All,
	I am in need of a handgun for my wife. I own a Taurus 9mm model PT99.
It has a  high capacity 15 shot clip. My wife likes it but it is to big
for her to carry conceled. I would like to go with a semi-auto gun and
high capacity if possible. I don't want to go below a .38 caliber if
possible. I am going to have her try a snub nose 5 shot .357 magnum this
weekend if the weather holds here in Pittsburgh. Any advice would be
appreciated.

							Thanks,

							  -Jim
***************************************************************
 Hey Man, I'm  drinking wine, eating cheese and catching some rays.

				Oddball
	  			 From Kelly's Heros
***************************************************************
From: jamaass@bluemoon.use.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks and Lead Bullets?
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:21 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])

lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani) writes:

# In article <9211171648.AA02916@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.
# #
# #In the on-going debate between Glocks and the rest of the world, I've
# #read a few posts indicating that one should NOT shoot LEAD bullets
# #in their Glock.  What are the facts in this?
# 
# The one and only reason I no longer shoot lead bullets in my Glock 17
# is I get absolutely terrible groups with them !  I do get good groups
# with jacketed and copper plated (not the copper wash) but lead are just
# atrocious.
# 
# #Does it apply to the .45 ACP also?
# 
# I believe the problem above is due to the polygonal barrel in 9mm Glocks.
# 
# The big-bore Glocks do not have a polygonal barrel and should work fine
# with lead.  A friend shot 200 grain SWC with 4 grains of Bullseye and
# got 5" (10 shot) groups at 10 yds the first time he shot his G21.
# 
# If someone knows of a lead bullet which will give good groups in the
# 9mm Glock please post your load info and more importantly what bullet
# exactly are you shooting.
# 


I noticed in the November/December issue of _Front_Sight_ that
Jarvis Gunsmithing, 1123 Cherry Orchard Lp., Hamilton MT 59840.
(406) 961-4392 is making/marketting replacement Glock barrels
with an eye toward improved accuracy.


Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
Powell OH (NW of Columbus)         Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:18:56 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot) writes:

#"This here is a .357 Magnum loaded with Federal Jacketed hollow points. 
#They've been found to be 95% succesful in ONE SHOT stops.  They work by
#expanding inside your body and pulverizing a large mass of your tissue,
#while transmitting a shock wave through you which shreds muscles and
#tendons..."

To which the perp would doubtless reply:

"Ah, but due to Marshall's methods which excluded multi-shot failures
to stop, that figure only means that _when only one shot is required_
Federal 125 gr JHPs are successful 95% of the time".

8-)
Jim Del Vecchio