From: v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Why? (was Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER)
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:02:00 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: University at Buffalo
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In article <1993Jan11.200025.26330@ra.royalroads.ca>, mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes...
>In article <C0JtBJ.6F7@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff) writes:

>>You miss my point.  An omnipotent, omniscient god would be able to create a
>>mental "roster" of those who would and who wouldn't be with him even *before*
>>creating the universe.  Why even bother with the unbelievers, then?  The ones
>>who choose would still have free will.  Besides, the larger question of god's
>>providing us with minimal evidence of his own existence still hangs over the
>>debate.  

>I think you know what you're trying to say.  You're asking why does God create
>those people who He knows will not believe in Him.  God makes use of even those
>who do not believe in Him in that they will influence and affect the lives of 
>those who DO believe.  

So in the grand scheme of things, I'm simply a pawn?  

>He gives everyone the gift of life to use and abuse as
>they would choose to.  Anyone can choose to believe in God, but sadly, 
>not everyone will.  

Remember that Jesus claimed that speaking in parables was useful so that not
all people could understand.  (Reference, anyone?)  How does this fit your
notion that anyone can choose to believe in god, when his own son is 
intentionally cryptic?  

Again, my whole point is that given your supposition that god "wants" a 
relationship with us, why doesn't he make his existence clearer?  You claim 
that his existence is plain, but I simply disagree.  

>>Imagine a neighborhood where an old man lives in what looks like an abandoned
>>old house.  This man shows absolutely no evidence that he even lives there; he
>>leaves his lights off and never leaves the house. Thus, the other neighbors
>>treat the house as if it doesn't have any tenants, and go on with their lives,
>>having block parties and the like. Meanwhile, the old man seethes, feeling that
>>the other people have ignored him.  Finally he snaps and goes on a murderous
>>spree, killing all the neighbors.  When the police ask for the reason, he says
>>"all I wanted was a relationship with them."  Hey, I'd jail him. 

>I'm assuming that you're saying that God is the "old man" in the house.  Well,
>this "old man" has sent out news of His existence through the prophets but the 
>people did not wish to listen and preferred to indulge in their block parties.

To fit the analogy, the "old man" told *previous residents* of the neighborhood
who are now long departed.  The only "evidence" that the old man lives there
is a book of stories about the former owner.  Not only that, but the 
book of stories is indistinguishable from other story books which come to
different conclusions about the presence or nature of this old man (here I'm
referring to the countless other religious works).  As far as I'm concerned,
my attitude as a neighbor is, "Hey, if he wants to be pals, he'll come out."
Not only that, but I've personally put letters (prayers) in his mailbox,
and he never showed up.  To me, that leads to four possible conclusions:

	1. The old man doesn't exist.
	2. The old man doesn't want a relationship with me.
	3. The old man doesn't think I sent him a pretty enough invitation,
		making him a petty jerk.  
	4. His attempts to get a hold of me are so subtle that I don't
		notice them, which suggests that he's not trying very hard.

>The "old man" sent out His one and only Son to proclaim His existence.  

Again, to the previous neighbors.   

>But the neighbourhood people didn't
>want to go to the man's house and eventually got tired of listening to his 
>son so they crucified him.  You tell me, who should be arrested?  

I plead innocence.  I wasn't even around.  :-)

******************************************************************************
For God so loved the world that He gave Man Free Will and then got pissed when
we didn't meet his arbitrary standards.  Oh, and he had his Son offed when he
realized how impossible those standards were.  -- Michael 4:23
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