HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: d3a132@roark.oname (Carl P Baker)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Date: 12 Apr 92 18:41:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: oracle.1992Apr12.184109.534
Reply-To: d3a132@roark.oname
Organization: Sun Microsystems


I agree that we're wandering... Should a new thread be started?

In article 25724@athena.mit.edu, solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
>In article <GERRY.92Apr11192258@onion.cmu.edu>, gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
>|> Slight change of topic, but...
>|> The reason that many American students now fel the need to go on to
>|> graduate school is because of the failing of our secondary school and
>|> undergraduate institutions to provide a basic, sound education.  As it
>|> stands, the first two years of undergraduate work (well, maybe I
>|> exaggerate a trifle), are really high school level work, needed to
>|> bring everyone up to par.
>
>I don't know about the first two years of college work being high school level,
>but I will say this: MIT's having to make the standard engineering program a five
>year program is (IMHO) an indication that secondary education is doing an
>inadequate job. IMHO there should be no job, the emphasis of which is on
>practice, which a student can not be prepared to do superlatively given four
>years of college education. When such cases exist (i.e. becoming a lawyer) it is
>usually due to the structure of the educational system.
>
>I would further state, that part of the reason for this is that students capable
>of learning enough in secondary school to make a four year education sufficient,
>are held back in the same classes as those students who are not that capable.
>
>Jason W. Solinsky


I graduated in 1983 from an excellent high school (there were 7 National
Merit Scholars the year I graduated - yes, I was one) with an education
that included calculus and college level physics and it still took me 5
years to complete my BS in Mechanical Engineering (OK, so I didn't work
as hard as I could have).  Technology is advancing, and it is no longer
possible to cram the minimum acceptable level of BS education into 4 years.
I may have been held back, but I worked pretty hard my last couple of
years in high school.

Carl Baker
Newsgroups: sci.engr
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: Two (ancient) articles on governors sought
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 17 Apr 1992 09:05 EST  

I can get the following two articles through our library, but it'll take 
weeks, and I can use them sooner if I can get them.  Now, before you even
*think* of flaming me for daring to use the net in this manner, let me
say that I don't want anyone to do my homework for me - if you have either
of these articles *handy* and you are willing to mail or fax a copy, please
send e-mail - otherwise, don't worry.  I'll wait.

Maxwell, J. C.  "On Governors."  Proc. Roy. Soc. London, 1868.

Vyshnegradskii, I. A.  "On Governors with Direct Action."  same journal, 1876.

RG
From: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: Re: Prop structual analysis
Date: 9 Apr 92 11:26:51 GMT
Reply-To: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Organization: David Taylor Model Basin, CDNSWC

In sci.engr, WAF102@psuvm.psu.edu (William Fabanich) writes:
>
>I was considering just treating a blade as a simple cantalivierbeam with
>either a uniform loading or a approx. linear loading. This is only a simple

I have done some prop blade analysis work and a first cut assumption
is to position the thrust load at .7*radius and .5*chord length.  This
is a point load. The torque load is also placed at this point.  I would
assume the cantilever beam simplification is OK as long as you give
yourself a generous factor of safety. We usually do FEM analyses for
this type of problem. There are some prop guys at ARL/Penn State who
may be able to give you some help.

Brian
Xref: sparky sci.engr:1190 sci.edu:518 misc.education:1862 sci.engr.biomed:230 sci.engr.chem:238
From: sridhar@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman)
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.edu,misc.education,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Date: 11 Apr 92 18:33:53 GMT
Reply-To: sridhar@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ

gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:

)decipher some of the very thick accents around this place takes to
)much effort, and the point being made it typically lost in the effort
)to understand.  While I have nothing against foreign students, I
)believe that the TOEFL exam should be made harder and should require a
)spoken portion.  The only reason that many of us can understand our
)foreign colleagues is because of many years of practice.

Well, let me first point out that there is a specific test that ETS
offers for testing spoken English. It is TSE.

TOEFL is supposedly for testing general English knowledge and 1/3rd of
the score goes for 'deciphering the American accented sentences'.

And let me add that my University stipulates that a TA has to pass the
Speak test (locally offered - equivalent to TSE).

Let me also add that most graduate departments (of ranked schools -
interpretation of 'ranked' is left to the reader) insist on GRE for
international students which is several times tougher than TOEFL in 
testing English Vocabulary.

The fact is that most of the world outside the US speaks English in a 
different accent and when they try to adjust to the US way, there is
likely to be some problems. 

After all it is left to the University to go for TSE or a locally
administered test. 

Sridhar.
Newsgroups: sci.engr,rec.autos,rec.autos.tech
From: baldwin@cps.msu.edu (Reid A Baldwin)
Subject: Optional content in Cars
Followup-To: sci.engr
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 16:25:43 GMT

I am looking for references that discuss the problem of designing
products that have a lot of options, such as cars. If you know of
a good reference, or wish to comment yourself, please send me email.
I will post a sumarry.

Reid Baldwin
Xref: sparky sci.engr:1156 sci.edu:496 misc.education:1835 sci.engr.biomed:204 sci.engr.chem:218
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.edu,misc.education,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Date: 9 Apr 92 02:30:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: athena.1992Apr9.023053.7851
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Now-a-days, with 36% of MITers being women, the subject of harrassment and things
which discourage women from engineering comes up reasonably often. It seems that
most of the discouragement comes in extreme forms from a very small minority of
faculty. The interesting thing is that not a single foreign faculty member has
ever been brought up as being a member of that minority. (NOTE: a LOT of bad
things can happen to a faculty member that many women believe discourages them.)

Jason W. Solinsky
From: raju@buengf.bu.edu (Rajminder Singh)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: Voltage drop in Silicon diode
Date: 10 Apr 92 02:29:17 GMT
Reply-To: raju@buengf.bu.edu (Rajminder Singh)
Distribution: sci.electronics , sci.physics
Organization: College of Engineering, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Hi there! I am  taking a course in Solid State Physics but I still 
haven't been able to answer the basic question of why the voltage drop
in a Silicon p-n junction is around 0.7 Volts ? Does this vary significantly
with the doping level ? What about the effect of temperature, current and
the energy band gap (E) of the material used in the junction ?

Thanks in advance for your help !

raju@buengf.bu.edu
raju@bass.bu.edu


Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.edu,misc.education,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.chem
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 23:06:37 GMT

There is one aspect of foreign students that I haven't seen brought up yet. For a
university to claim a world class reputation, it needs a world wide student body.
The reason why (I am told) there are strict quotas on international
undergraduates is because it is an American institution for undergraduate. The
graduate schools, however are supposed to be world class, and that's supposed to
be why we have nearly 40% internationals there. They are important from a
representaional view. In fact, this is my primary reason for wanting the
institute to drop its only quota, the cap on undergraduate internationals.

Jason W. Solinsky
From: d3a132@roark.oname (Carl P Baker)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:28:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: oracle.1992Apr12.222822.2022
Reply-To: d3a132@roark.oname
Distribution: na
Organization: Sun Microsystems


Gerry,

  You are right.  I don't feel like I got American History over and over,
  (maybe I wasn't paying attention), but I do feel like I got the same
  MATH over and over.  This is probably just the difference in school
  systems and individuals.  Five year engineering courses may still be
  necessary, but right now they are being used as a patch to fix someone
  else`s (secondary schools') problem.

Carl Baker
cp_baker@pnl.gov
My views are my own (I hope).
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Date: 11 Apr 92 21:11:50 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <44919@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
|> In article <GERRY.92Apr9160546@onion.cmu.edu> gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
|> >   * 2. Do you beleive they discourage women or minorities from the
|> >eng. profession
|> 
|> >Discourage: Many of the foriegners come from middle eastern or
|> >oriental societies, both of which heavily discriminate against women.  
|> 
|> The proportion of women in our PhD program is higher among Asians
|> than it is among Americans.  We have no shortage of strong Asian
|> women applying, but we do have an extreme shortage of American women.

This is because Americans discriminate against women when they bring them up, by
implying that certain lines of work or not for them, and emphasising less
important atributes more when talking to girls than boys. Most of the damage is
probabally done by the parents. The end result, in my not so PC opinion, is that
these attitudes cause the American girls to be inferior on the whole (not just
academia) to their Asian counterparts. So I can't complain that Asian girls
appear to make up about 50% of our female population (I don't know the exact
figure).

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.edu,misc.education,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.chem
From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix & Think_Tank BBS
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 18:14:10 GMT


In response to this question: > 
>|> * 2. Do you beleive they discourage women or minorities from the eng. profession
Jason Solinsky (solman@athen.mit.edu) answers:
>
>No. Society does that.
 
Interesting that he knows this. Has he asked any of his female colleagues?

Several years ago, Design News did a lengthy piece on women in engineering.
My co-worker (a woman who is finishing up her engineering degree) interviewed
many women in the field. Several said that they found the attitudes of
*some* foreign-born instructors to be EXTREMELY discouraging toward
women in the classroom.

This is not to say ALL foreign-born instructors/TAs/professors do this,
certainly. And, I believe that the influx of students and teachers from
other countries is, on the whole, a benefit to this country. However,
to simply say "no" as an answer to that question is, in my opinion,
incorrect, and ignores something that should be looked at further.

Disclaimer: This is MY OWN, PERSONAL opinion and has nothing at all to do
with my employer's opinion!

Sharon 
-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us   or   uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon
From: gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Date: 15 Apr 92 01:03:44 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

Regarding the flame war about foreign students:

1) According to colleagues doing postdocs at CERN and in universities
   in France and Germany, it is virtually impossible for a US citizen
   to get a potentially permanent job in physics in Europe, regardless 
   of her qualifications.

2) I see direct no evidence of foreign scientists driving down
   salaries in the academic/pure-research job market. 

3) Nor do I see the kind of hyperspecification that one gentleman
   suggested in a recent post, where the job is targeted towards a 
   particular individual. Most positions I see advertized really go 
   through a competitive selection process.

However,

4) At Yale (where I got my PhD) over 50% of the atomic physics faculty are
   not US citizens. A similar figure holds for the nuclear physics
   faculty. I don't know how this compares with other universities.

5) The New York Times, Physics Today, and many other sources report
   an enormous glut of physics PhDs --- many times what the market
   can bear. Job openings at colleges and universities get 300-800
   applications for each opening. I have a number of colleagues who
   are extremely well qualified and cannot find potentially permanent
   jobs.

I don't want to jump to a simple conclusion. However, there is a
problem.  At a time when many qualified US PhDs cannot find permanent
jobs, many permanent jobs are taken by foreigners, in whose native
countries US citizens are not free to compete. Can we address the
question of what to do about this problem constructively and without
bashing foreigners (Buy American is no better a policy at universities
than in Detroit)? Some people have made concrete suggestions, but many
seem merely to be blowing off steam.

Should there be prejudicial hiring of US citizens? Should we restrict
our universities to producing fewer graduates? Should we let the
free market take care of things?

---Jon

These opinions are mine alone and the government probably disagrees.

Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.edu,misc.education,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.chem
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 10:41:13 GMT

In article <GERRY.92Apr11192258@onion.cmu.edu>, gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
|> Slight change of topic, but...
|> The reason that many American students now fel the need to go on to
|> graduate school is because of the failing of our secondary school and
|> undergraduate institutions to provide a basic, sound education.  As it
|> stands, the first two years of undergraduate work (well, maybe I
|> exaggerate a trifle), are really high school level work, needed to
|> bring everyone up to par.

I don't know about the first two years of college work being high school level,
but I will say this: MIT's having to make the standard engineering program a five
year program is (IMHO) an indication that secondary education is doing an
inadequate job. IMHO there should be no job, the emphasis of which is on
practice, which a student can not be prepared to do superlatively given four
years of college education. When such cases exist (i.e. becoming a lawyer) it is
usually due to the structure of the educational system.

I would further state, that part of the reason for this is that students capable
of learning enough in secondary school to make a four year education sufficient,
are held back in the same classes as those students who are not that capable.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.edu,misc.education,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.chem
From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix & Think_Tank BBS
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 13:56:48 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.023053.7851@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
>Now-a-days, with 36% of MITers being women, the subject of harrassment and things
>which discourage women from engineering comes up reasonably often. It seems that
>most of the discouragement comes in extreme forms from a very small minority of
>faculty. The interesting thing is that not a single foreign faculty member has
>ever been brought up as being a member of that minority. (NOTE: a LOT of bad
>things can happen to a faculty member that many women believe discourages them.)

I was not talking about overt harassment, something that would involve
bringing up a faculty member on charges. I was referring to SOME people that
come from cultures where women are simply not expected to go for *any*
higher education, let alone technical education, and where they simply have
not been in a situation where women are supposed to be the intellectual
equals of men. What I was talking about is more subtle forms of
discouragement -- encouraging the male students more than the females, not
calling on women in class, etc. (Studies have shown that this happens
at the elementary-school level among many American-born teachers, too, by
the way. But at the college level, a) women may be more aware of it than
8-year-old girls are, and b) it may be more obvious and overt if done in
a different way than some American-born teachers do it).

Incidentally, though, foreign faculty members coming from some places in
Europe might be *more* likely to consider it normal to have women in the
classroom. I am pretty sure that the ex-USSR, for example, has a higher
percentage of female engineers than the U.S. (Likewise, there are definitely
a huge percentage of female doctors in the ex-USSR. Unfortunately, this has
a lot to do with the fact that both engineering and medicine are low-
paying professions there. ... I was told that a good factory worker would
earn more than an engineer).

I still believe, though, that foreign technical professionals are an asset
to the United States!
 

-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us   or   uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.edu,misc.education,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.chem
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 16:18:32 GMT

In article <scaacINN6rp@hilbert.math.ksu.edu>, bennett@math.ksu.edu (Andy Bennett) writes:

|> >I find it interesting in the context of this discussion that the standard
|> >for American English is set by someone who was foreign-born - Peter Jennings 
|> >comes from Canada.
|> 
|> The last time I looked, Canada occupied the northern part of America. The 
|> continent includes more than just the U.S.

Besides, everybody knows that except for that Quebec place, Canada is just an
extension of the US. We just call it by a different name for administrative
reasons.

Jason W. Solinsky :-)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
From: gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 21:21:23 GMT
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
Reply-To: gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)

Carl,
You seem to have missed the point.  I too was graduated from a good
high school.  I had AP chemistry and two years of calculus.  BUT SO
WHAT?  Why didn't we all have pre-engineering courses, linear algebra,
etc?  Our best secondary schools are quite pitiful.It sems that if
American students spent more hours in school, and if American students
weren't required to take and retake the same crap each year
(seriously, just how many years of study are required for American
history, a topic that has only ~300 years worth of material?), more
time could be spent on sciences and math, thereby making the 4 year
college program practicable.  As it stands now, 5 year programs will
be required because of the hand-holding required at the freshman and
sophomore levels.

--
Gerry Roston (gerry@cmu.edu)    | We hold these truths to be self-evident, that
Field Robotics Center,          | all men are created equal, that they are
Carnegie Mellon University      | endowed by their Creator with certain
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | unalienable Rights, that among these are
(412) 268-3856                  | Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
                                | That to secure these rights, Governments are
The opinions expressed are mine | instituted among Men, deriving their just
and do not reflect the official | powers from the consent of the governed.
position of CMU, FRC, RedZone,  | That whenever any Form of Government becomes
or any other organization.      | destructive of these ends, it is the Right of
                                | the People to alter or to abolish it, and to
                                | institute new Government, laying its
                                | foundation on such principles and organizing
                                | its powers in such form, as to them shall
                                | seem most likely to effect their Safety and
                                | Happiness.  Thomas Jefferson
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 14:52:31 EDT
From: William Fabanich <WAF102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: Prop structual analysis

Can any one name any texts/references that cover "basic/simple" structual
   analysis of props(marine).

I was considering just treating a blade as a simple cantalivierbeam with
either a uniform loading or a approx. linear loading. This is only a simple
3 blade, 1.5 foot radius prop with rpm = to approx. 100. I am using this
analysis to determine a min. thickness so I can choose as thin an airfoil as
possible.

       Thanx in advance!

                Bill Fabanich
Xref: sparky sci.engr:1216 sci.edu:539 misc.education:1897 sci.engr.biomed:249 sci.engr.chem:253
From: jmh@tko.vtt.fi (Jorg-Michael Hasemann)
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.edu,misc.education,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Date: 14 Apr 92 06:45:28 GMT
Organization: VTT Technical Research Centre of Finland, Oulu

In <1992Apr13.161832.18145@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:

>In article <scaacINN6rp@hilbert.math.ksu.edu>, bennett@math.ksu.edu (Andy Bennett) writes:

(stuff deleted)
>Besides, everybody knows that except for that Quebec place, Canada is just an
>extension of the US. We just call it by a different name for administrative
>reasons.

That might sound extremely funny inside US, but does not abroad. Keep in
mind, there is some civilization, even outside US. :-)

>Jason W. Solinsky :-)

Michael Hasemann
Newsgroups: sci.engr