HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Subject: Re: If these postings are a representative sample of the arts...
Organization: University of Utah
	<JON.92Apr16102808@zeus.med.utah.edu> <1992Apr16.141427.1@gallua>
	<JON.92Apr16141605@zeus.med.utah.edu>
Date: 16 Apr 92 14:26:44

In article <JON.92Apr16141605@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:

   In article <1992Apr16.141427.1@gallua> CADS_COLE@GALLUA.BITNET (Kevin Cole; Washington DC) writes:

      I'm sorry if I offended any of you, but that's honestly the impression I got 
      from the majority of postings I read yesterday.  That was the first time that I 
      had checked out the newsgroup, although I've been a long-time regular on some 
      of the professional interest lists.

      In any case, I think I will follow the advice given by several people here, and
      ignore this newsgroup to go find some *REAL* students and teachers. 

   this last comment makes your apology sound completely insincere.

i suddenly realized that there is another possible interpretation of
kevin's "*REAL* students" comment.  i assumed he meant real (as
opposed to charlatan).

if he meant real (as opposed to virtual), then my assessment of his
sincerety was out of line, and i apologize.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave)
Subject: Re: Which is most effective? Point/Edge weapons.
Reply-To: stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 20:40:53 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.111829.770@gacvx2.gac.edu>, karsten@nic.gac.edu
(Karsten Hendrick) writes:
|> True enough.  A katana is the ultimate blade.  The problem one has
|> when pitting any other weapon besides a katana (or tachi, naginata)
|> against a katana, is that the katana can typically cut through the
|> alloys used to make other weapons, as well as any armor someone might
|> be wearing.  Shock-jackets (bullet proof vests that stop high-
|> powered rifle shells, even .475 supermagnums) are probably the only
|> personal armor that would stop a katana.
|> 

I have heard stories of competitions between japanese helmet makers
and swordsmiths.  A mutually agreed upon swordsman would strike a
helmet from the helmet maker with a sword from the swordsmith.  If
the sword went through the helmet, the swordsmith won, otherwise the
helmet maker won.  So one would assume it was possible for a helmet
to be constructed that would stop a sword.

There are also stories of matches between spearsmen and swordsmen.
One of the tricks that the spearsmen had was to sharply strike the
side of their opponents sword, thus bending or breaking it.  They
*do* bend and break, I've seen several bent swords and one broken
sword (a depressing sight, let me tell you).

I have a distinct preference for japanese blades myself, but I don't
think that they are quite as invulnerable as many stories would make
them seem.  (My sword has a small chip in the edge near the point,
my instructor said he thought it was caused by either striking armor
or bone)

Joel Stave
stave@apollo.hp.com
From: dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fashions (was: Black Belt)
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:58:24 GMT
Reply-To: dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches)
Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB

In the referenced article radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner) writes:
>In article <1992Apr3.175512.27740@relay.nswc.navy.mil> snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:
>>soft and more important easy to iron after a couple years.
>                                 ^^^^
>                                  |
>   you IRON your GHI ???????????..|
>                                  
Of course and why not?  Actually, I iron only the trousers (that's
pants to you guys over there :-).  It gives your opponent something to
admire when they're picking themselves off the floor :-)

Starch is pretty good as well since your opponent can't grip your gi
properly!  Only for the Jacket (that's Top for you gues over there :-)
though, it gets a bit much when the triangular bit of cotton in the
middle of the trousers gets starched :-)

Now what's this about leather ...
   Dave Riches
   PSS:    David.S.Riches@bnr.co.uk
   Smail:  BNR Europe Ltd, London Road,
	   Harlow, Essex. CM17 9NA.  England
   Phone:  +44 (0)279-429531 x2496
   Fax:	   +44 (0)279-454187
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus)
Subject: Re: Bruce Lee on Classical Karate
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:44:47 GMT


pauljone@aludra.usc.edu (Michael Jones) writes:
> tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus) writes:

>>   "Through instictive feeling, each of us KNOWS [emp. his] our own 
>>    most efficient and dynamic manner of achieving effective leverage, 
>>    balance in motion, economical use of energy, etc." -- Bruce Lee
>
>I thought this was the whole philosophy of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.  Wu-Wei
>Action in Non-action, moving naturally in an uncontrived manner.


  I agree entirely that this is the ultimate *goal* of many arts, 
  especially TC and Aikido.  My interpretation of Bruce's statement was 
  that he felt that people were somehow able to *start out* this way,
  e.g. start them out sparring right away instead of performing punching
  and blocking drills.  I may have just misread what he meant.
  

>There is a lot to be learned about the human body.  But in terms of
>efficiently using your own body, I think there's more to be unlearned.
>The best way is to stop interfering with the way it wants to move.


  Learning, unlearning, same thing !!  Sheesh !! :-)
  Your statement is *exactly* what I mean to say.
  People do *not* naturally know the best way to use their bodies, 
  they must unlearn bad habits and then learn proper technique.


>Bruce Lee was definitely gifted and reached a pinnicle of martial arts
>ability, but couldn't say one way or the other if he reached the point
>where all martial arts meet.  From what I've seen in the movies, anyway.

  Actually, I don't really have any particular opinion of Bruce, good
  or bad.  I just wanted to attack his words without causing a 
  "Bruce Lee - God or charlatan?" debate.  I thought that by conceeding
  that he was very good, thus making his words worthy of analysis, I'd
  avoid a dead-end discussion of him.  Obviously, it backfired :-(


>> This discussion has important implications for Aikido, and the attempt
>> to teach it as done so by O'Sensei is his later years --

  By this, I meant to criticize what would appear to be the attempt of 
  some Aikido schools to teach this ultimate stage ("new age touchy-feely")
  without really understanding the origin and foundations of the art.
  [My own instructor is a student of Chiba Sensei, and teachs very real
  aikido, but still with a spirtual component, like that found in O'Sensei's 
  1936 manual "Budo".]

  Please see a follow-up post re: multiple attackers --

  -- Ted --

==========================================================
  Ted Camus                          Box 1910 CS Dept 
  tac@cs.brown.edu                   Brown University
  tac@browncs.BITNET                 Providence, RI 02912
From: neil@celia.UUCP (Neil Richmond)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: How to choose a Martial Art discipline?
Date: 6 Apr 92 22:27:52 GMT
Reply-To: celia!neil@usc.edu (Neil Richmond)
Organization: Rhythm & Hues, Inc., Hollywood

In article <1992Apr5.083710.15661@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:

>targets to start with) and sabre fencers, although restricted to
>above the waist, can also attack the hands (painful!).  I'm positive
>the samurai used the tip every so often, but did they develop a whole
>system based around it?  You might flip through "The English

Actually, the Shinkage style as developed by the Yagyu family specialized in
attacks to the wrists and arms, sometimes cutting both up and down. In my
small experience with kenjutsu, the cutting would have to be done with the
edge of the katana close to the tip. Stepping inside would like impede the
speed of the cut and put the swordsman in danger of being cut himself. Those
who have studied more, please affirm or repudiate this as you see fit. This
information I have gained from " The Sword and the Mind ", which is among 
other things, a transcription of the writings of some members of the Yagyu
family.

neil
-- 
Only 2826 shopping days left till the next millenium! 
Neil F. Richmond         INTERNET: celia!neil@usc.edu
Rhythm & Hues Inc.       UUCP: ...{ames,hplabs}!lll-tis!celia!neil)
From: antoine@Apple.COM (Antoine Duong)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: How to be informed of tournaments
Keywords: Shotokan
Date: 8 Apr 92 18:34:18 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA


Hello,
Does anyone know what is the best way to be informed of any
Shotokan tournaments going on in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Thanks,
From: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM (Garth)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: multiple opponents; combat vs. self-defense
Date: 17 Apr 92 00:59:32 GMT
Reply-To: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: dojo.west.sun.com

>>>can hit him/her (pick the weakest one :^) and end his/her day, then
>>                           ^^^^^^^
>>Funny, my teacher always recommends the opposite. Take the biggest,
>>strongest, baddest, loudest, etc. first, in hopes of taking out the
>>ringleader.

Weakest, strongest...how can you tell?  Unless one has a gun (and if
you are up against multiple opponents and one has a gun and he is
close enough for you to melee with, then you are lucky...well not
as lucky as if you had stayed home, but better than nothing), or
a knife.  I would just go for the one that has presented opportunity, or 
that you have set up to allow the opportunity.

Circled by three...break the circle and nail the first one to follow.  Odds
are (unless they work well together) that they will NOT all come at you
at the same time.  And if they do, odds are they are moving slow enough
that you can just run away.  If they have worked so long together that
they all move in unison, quickly and to the correct postions, you have
some REAL problems on your hands...

What to do if one is armed with a knife and the others aren't, break
away from the knife guy and stay away.  Try to keep the other between
you and him.  

What to do if one is armed with a gun?  If he is close enough, nail him
first.  Last thing you want is a gun at your back when your opportunity
to flee has arrived.

What to do is they are all armed...pray for the Marines (yes, but what of
they ARE the Marines?).

-Garth



			= = = = = = =
  | Garth R. Doverspike		Sun Microsystems, S.E. Seattle |
  | garth.doverspike@west.sun.com			       |
From: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Police/Otis (D. Poore)
Date: 11 Apr 92 19:41:46 GMT
Reply-To: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Organization: Florida State University

In article <43377@as0c.sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
>I am curious why Otis' feels his Go Ju instruction is inadequate for police
>work.  My Go Ju instructor was a marine who used his Go Ju in front line

I couldn't say for sure what the *cause* is, because as you state, there
are many possible differences between his Goju and your instructor's. I
think in general, he feels that the emphasis was more in the striking
aspects of combat, rather than those things more oriented to control and
restraint. This in combination with legal restrictions on the amount and
type of force made him heel that he needed to augment his training with
others-namely some Chin Na stuff and Aikido. 

David Poore
poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cuzz@ellis.uchicago.edu (Laura Cuzzillo)
Subject: Re: A new belt question
Keywords: belts, floor
Reply-To: cuzz@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: The University of Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 14:13:34 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.215059.27658@colorado.edu> ejh@khonshu.colorado.edu (Edward J. Hartnett) writes:

>ceremony. Someone would collect all the old belts from the floor, and
>I presume they were all thrown in the trash. That was a Kempo school.
>Anyone else ever hear of that?

Never heard of that.  I've kept all my belts, but then I'm a rather
sentimental person and keep all sorts of stuff.  That aside, in my
school you need to keep at least your white belt.  Candidates for
shodan wear white belts throughout their black belt test and are
referred to as "white belts".  I guess it's supposed to be a
humbling thing - as if the 3 day test were not humbling enough.

Yes I know you get a new white belt every time you buy a new gi.
It just wouldn't be the same as wearing the one I actually trained
in as a white belt.  I said I was sentimental. :-)

Laura
cuzz@midway.uchicago.edu
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Breaking
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:45:08 GMT
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: acevedo@athena.mit.edu's message of 6 Apr 92 00:47:36 GMT


In article <ACEVEDO.92Apr5204731@m11-113-3.mit.edu> acevedo@athena.mit.edu (Gabriel) writes:

   In article <willimsa.702504201@unix1.tcd.ie> willimsa@unix1.tcd.ie
   (Gavin Williams) writes:

      Some of you out there may remember a passage in Funakoshi Sensei's
      book, 'My Way of Life'.  In it he refers to any people who boast
      about breaking and use it, among other things, as a demonstration of
      skill.  He says that they are very much distanced from the true
      meaning of Karate.  (I can get the actual quote if there is enough
      interest.)

      My question is, how would you reconcile this with the practice among
      certain forms of Martial Arts (I know TKD does it and have heard that
      others may), of breaking boards and blocks etc. as part of the
      proficiency examinations for gradings and advancement?

[stuff about the purpose of breaking snipped]

   Note that you said "any people who *boast* about breaking and use it,
   among other things, as a demonstration of skill".  If you are using
   breaking to boast then clearly there's something wrong.  True, many
   schools use breaking as part of demonstrations to impress people; but
   that's what demonstrations are all about.  (Whether this is a good way
   to get students is another matter.)

   I haven't yet read Funakoshi's book, unfortunately, so I'm not sure
   exactly what he says.  If he still has qualms about board breaking, just
   as an aspect of training just like target practice or one steps, then
   I'd like to hear it.

He has no more qualms, Raul...he's dead.  :-)

On a more serious note...I did read Funakoshi's book, and my impression
was that he was saying people who view being able to break boards as 
their objective, rather than as a secondary effect of their training,
have got things backwards.  If you practice techniques properly, in
time you will develop the kind of focus, speed, power, etc. that would
allow you break.  On the other hand, if breaking is your only objective,
then you shouldn't be too surprised if that's the only thing that you
can actually do.  

IMHO, breaking is a demonstration of skills that were attained for 
reasons other than breaking.  Sounds convoluted, I know, but...
--


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
From: sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Meaning?
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:36:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.EdslA1e00UoJNOqWZo
	<1992Apr7.202545.9990@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Comp & Comm - Telecommunications, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Sotnak) writes:
> Ed Liu writes:
> 
> }   One answer that I have for the question comes out of a seminar I took in Z\
> en
> }Buddhism.  In Zen, the idea of a division between mind and body, one of the
> }most important philosophical questions in western philosophy, is ridiculous.
> }To Zen practicioners, there is NO distinction between your mind and your body.
> 
>   Well, this isn't entirely true.  It depends very much on which Zen
> Buddhist literature you are looking at.
>   There is, for example, the notion in Zen that one ought to LOCATE the
> mind in the lower abdomen.


	Things get even more convoluted. According to Takuan, after
you have learned to locate your mind in your tanden, you should try for
the state where your mind is not located in any particular place.

>   I'm not even fully convinced that classical Zen Buddhists would have
> found the distinction between mind and body ridiculous if it had been
> proposed to them.  They would, however, almost certainly have found it
> singularly uninteresting.  Zen, in conformity with Buddhist tradition,
> is concerned with liberation, not metaphysics.

	I recently attended a lecture given by Richard Rose, who is an
exponent of Zen. I'm not qualified to determine his level of "enlightenment",
but I found his talk to be very down to earth and interesting.
	During a question & answer period, there was a certain class
of questions which Mr. Rose seemed to (politely) consider as not
relevant, or worth poking fun at. The class included:
	1) "What-if?" questions (stick to what is, not what might be)
	2) metaphysics, free-will/determinism
	3) pet theories about the "cosmic consciousness", the
existence of God, etc...

Stephen Y. Chan		Programmer Analyst	CMU Telecommunications
stevec+@cmu.edu		(412)268-5115 [me] 	(412)268-4987 [FAX]
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: If these postings are a representative sample of the arts...
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 04:00:18 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.141427.1@gallua> CADS_COLE@GALLUA.BITNET (Kevin Cole; Washington DC) writes:
>In any case, I think I will follow the advice given by several people here, and
>ignore this newsgroup to go find some *REAL* students and teachers. 

Good advice.  Follow it.  Rec.m-a is great fun, but certainly no 
substitute for real instruction.  
--
Richard A. Drury                                    drury@helix.nih.gov
National Institutes of Health
From: sasso@flounder.phy.anl.gov (John F. Sasso)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Multiple attackers
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:48:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: mcs.1992Apr15.194839.4475
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory

In article <8233@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore) writes:
>
Discussion about multiple attackers deleted:


>Not likely for me. I am not really that fast a runner, and when I am old
>an fat, I sure wouldn't want to try this (esp. if faced by a pack o
>younguns). Besides, psychologically, if you run, then aren't they going
>to be in predator mode and you in prey mode? I say reverse the situation
>immediately by taking down as many as you can as quickly as you
>can...starting with the toughest. Then YOU are the predator. Or as
>Funakoshi said: Do not stand before your opponnent, make him stand
>before you. (Or something like that, appologies to karateka if I
>butchered it too badly)
>

This brings up a good point.  Right now most of us (I'm assuming here)
are relatively young and in decent physical shape.  What happens when
were dottering old men and women who couldn't outrun a three legged
snail?

At a recent promotion test at my Aikido dojo, a 60 year old 
student tested for first kyu.  The test is approx 20 minutes long,
and ends with 3 man randori.  After 20 minutes was up he looked
exhausted.  Time for the randori.

He did not make long flowing movements, because he
couldn't.  But he held his space extremely well.  He stayed within
a small area, about 10 feet in diameter, and just kept throwing the
attackers out of HIS space.  It was amazing!


						John F Sasso



-- 
"The only way to true inspiration is the study of TedDo.  And lots
of MauMau, of course."  The Elvis Lectures
"I am not the False Bob, I am a free man."  The Book of FalseBobs
"Since the introduction of MauMau, HP sales have skyrocketed." Book of MauMau
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: izar@shuldig.huji.ac.il (Izar Tarandach)
Subject: Re: Dougie Wougie
Reply-To: izar@cs.huji.ac.il
Organization: Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 09:11:12 GMT

By mistake I included Doug's article in my previous 
posting and perhaps left the notion that Doug is my "Mr.
Know All" - well, we all know ho is it, don't we ? 
Just clarifying matters...

<deep bow> 

--Izar
Organization: Comp & Comm - Telecommunications, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 11:15:04 -0400 
From: Stephen Chan <sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Posting guidelines
	<1992Apr15.160420.14067@progress.com>

gerard@progress.COM (Gerard Bras) writes:
> sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Chan) writes:
> 
> >       Things which you have read in a book somewhere, or last
> >month's lead article in "Black Belt" are kind of marginal credentials
> >for making declarations. 
> 
> If the book is written by an accepted expert in the art, and the discussion
> centers on what is written, I see no reason it can't be discussed.  
> And discussing "Black Belt" has it's place as humor.

	The problem isn't so much when Kisshomaru Ueshiba talks about
Aikido, or when Shoshin Nagamine talks about Okinawan Karate.
	The problem is when some "expert" makes a comment about
something which is not properly within their field of expertise.
	For example, if David Carradine makes a comment about the
Japanese martial art of Hapkido (!!??) are we supposed to take him
seriously?

> Again, if the basis for discussion is fairly represented this should be OK.
> If I say, "I sparred a guy who's been training in Meikdo for three weeks, &
> I broke his arm but he got my wallet" then this is reasonable.  If I say
> "I sparred a (your style here) guy and since I walked away all your 
> techniques and theories are crap" then it's a little different.

	Okay, that sounds reasonable.
	The heart of my suggestions is that folks should apply more
critical thought towards their own experiences, and if they fail to do
so, then they should be prepared to have other net-folks apply the
criticism for them.

Stephen Y. Chan		Programmer Analyst	CMU Telecommunications
stevec+@cmu.edu		(412)268-5115 [me] 	(412)268-4987 [FAX]
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: If these postings are a representative sample of the arts...
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:08:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1992Apr16.102023.14663@cbnews.cb.att.com> yy@cbnews.cb.att.com (alan.j.lapenn) writes:
>In article <1992Apr16.033527.19885@csl.sri.com>, boucher@neon.csl.sri.com (Peter K. Boucher) writes:
>> >>>    You know, for a while there, I was seriously considering studying  
>> >>>    martial arts. 
>> >>>    Then I started reading this newsgroup.
>> >> you're right, of course.  i hope you get a chance to read alt.sex
>> >> before you reach puberty.
>> >> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;-> ;->
>> >you sure say alot about the attitudes and integrity of us practitioners.   
>> >thanks
>> Clearly, these postings are not a representative sample of the arts.
>> This, however
>> is not an intelligent reason to stop considering studying martial
>> arts.
>Why should anyone predicate their desision of studying the martial arts on
>anyone elses comments without checking it out first hand? 

I believe that was Jonathan's point. 

Steve