HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Sacred mountains of the World by Edwin Bernbaum
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<x422l#j@rpi.edu>
Date: 30 Dec 92 11:35:59

In article <x422l#j@rpi.edu> kasprj@jec310.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:

   Xref: CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU rec.arts.books:55595 sci.environment:26954
   Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk,environmen
   In article <1992Dec30.154106.20354@pbhye.PacBell.COM>, mjvande@pbhye.PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman) writes:
   |> 
   |> How can a mountain be sacred and be climbed at the same time? 

    You have a very narrow definition of "sacred". Perhaps the climbing of the
   mountain is itself a sacred act.
   ------------------------------------------------------------------
	__  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
    ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
   /____ *| Sam Adams,Spaten# Life is too short #Hudson Lager,Beck's 
	\_| Pilsener Urquell#to drink cheap beer#Pete's Wicked Ale
	 ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 


Aren't the religious aspects of climbing Mount Fuji pretty well
institutionalized in Japan?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk,environment
From: sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock)
Subject: Sacred mountains of the World by Edwin Bernbaum
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 01:49:38 GMT

SACRED MOUNTAINS OF THE WORLD by Edwin Bernbaum.  Sierra Club
Books, 100 Bush St., 13th Floor, San Francisco, CA  94104. 
Illustrated, index, notes, bibliography.  291 pp., $25.00 paper. 
0-87156-508-0

                             REVIEW

     Here in Colorado, there is a steadily growing group of people
who have climbed all of the state's 43 peaks that are above 14,000
feet high.  There are those who go so far as to claim records for
climbing them in the least amount of time.  Bernbaum's new release
is just the item for those with loftier goals:  climbing all of the
sacred peaks.
     In this paperback edition of "Sacred Mountains of the World,"
readers are guided through the mystical mountains of the world and
the religions that have adopted them as spiritual points of
reference.  Included are Annapurna (Himalayas), T'ai Shan (China),
Mt. Fuji (Japan), Ayers Rock (Australia), Mt. Athos (Greece), Mt.
Sinai (Egypt), Mt. Zion (Israel), the San Francisco Peaks (South-
western U.S.), and a multitude of others.
     Along with the over 120 lavish color photographs, Bernbaum
details several of the controversies that have drawn religious
organizations into battle with developers that have threatened to
bulldoze the sites, notably those held sacred by indigenous tribes. 
The Mt. Graham (Arizona) telescope controversy between the
University of Arizona and the Apaches, though, is not mentioned.
     Bernbaum also attempts to link the sacred traditions of the
past with the mountain-climbing experience, and fails.  The
religious zeal with which the devoted regard these places is not
analogous to the technical breakdowns of the difficulty of climbing
routes.  I know that climbers have reverence for the peaks they
ascend, but they don't base their lives on them.
     "Sacred Mountains of the World" won the Commonwealth Club's
Gold Medal for Nonfiction last year.

Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock)
Subject: Heaven is Under Our Feet by Don Henley and Dave Marsh
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 01:51:10 GMT

HEAVEN IS UNDER OUR FEET: A BOOK FOR WALDEN WOODS, edited by Don
Henley and Dave Marsh.  Berkeley Publishing Group, 200 Madison Ave,
N.Y., NY  10016.  Illustrated.  292 pp., $9.95 paper.  
0-425-13546-2

     Sorry, Don, your urban backyard on Mulholland Drive is not
analogous to Walden Woods.  Your environmental conscience, however,
is to be commended.
     "Heaven is Under Our Feet," in this paperback edition, is one
of several vehicles Henley and Marsh have developed to save the
Brister's Hill area of Walden Woods slated for the development of
an office complex.
     In the past, some of Henley's songs have mocked the recording
industry and the media (remember "No Fun Aloud?").  This time,
however, he has assembled a throng of actors and actresses (Whoppi
Goldberg, Carrie Fisher, Tom Cruise), musicians and vocalists
(Janet Jackson, Jimmy Buffett, Paula Abdul, Sting), authors (Louise
Erdrich, E.L. Doctrow, Kurt Vonnegut), politicians (Jimmy Carter,
Jesse Jackson, Paul Tsongas), and other celebrities (Cesar Chavez,
Garry Trudeau) to muse on their place in the natural world.  We are
supposed to disregard, I guess, their conspicuously consumptive
lifestyles.
     Buy this book for the idea that some of your money will help
preserve an area that inspired one of America's foremost natural-
ists, not because you believe that the book contains great writing. 
The only exceptional passages here are the extensive quotes from
Thoreau, but don't miss Kirstie Alley asking "Why can't we learn
from the past?" or Tom Hanks reminiscing about his "Weekly Reader."

Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:41:22 GMT


I got lots of feedback on this one, and as I have explained to those who
left me E-mail, I do not agree with Smith's ideas.  The current curricular
bias toward consumption, though, is unsustainable, and the book is in that
regard a contribution to the discussion of ways to change it.
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Followup-To: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:08:57 GMT
X-Posted-From: iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <C02rE0.CJ@news.iastate.edu>, s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael
bruce mcdonald) wrote:
> 
> In article <scottj-301292082245@iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu>, scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott) writes:
> >In article <C01uB5.2Mo@csn.org>, sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock) wrote:
> >> There are many fundamental procedures,
> >> Smith says, but most important is a shift away from "preparing
> >> children to think of themselves as individuals who must sell their
READ THIS -----> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> >> talents in a competitive job market if they are to succeed."  
> >>      This philosophy is at odds with Smith's vision of students who
> >> develop "the ability to cooperate and enter into alliances with
> >> others to solve common problems and to recognize the fundamental
> >> interdependence that people share with one another."  Students must
> >> be socialized to understand the social costs of environmental
> >> degradation and develop self-restraint.
> >
> >Ah, good.  Yet another reason to homeschool my children.

> Do you mean to tell me that with generations of kids having been profoundly
> socialized to blithely accept all sorts of thinks of dubious value (like
> most of America's wars), you can genuinely get up in arms at the prospect
> of kids being socialized to "understand the social costs of environmental
> degradation"?  (Wow! sounds so insidious it must be a Satanic plot or
> something!)

No, I do not mean to tell you that.

I will bring my kids up to understand that they are individuals and that,
as such, they are responsible for their own actions (with regard to the
environment and otherwise).  This does not require indoctrination or
"socialization" of any sort.

I have many reasons for wanting to homeschool my children, only one of
which is the desire of some to use the schools to mold the personalities
and politics of the children to their liking.  Such efforts are not
insidious plots but are simply the acts of well-intentioned but in my
opinion, misguided people.  I doubt that many of them, if any at all, are
"satanists".

> Maybe that jerk Pat Buchanan was right after all, maybe this *is* a war for
> America's soul, if such socialization can really strike you as "radical."

Such socialization, unfortunately, is the norm, and is certainly not
"radical" (whom are you quoting, anyway?).  Even if I did consider it
radical, I fail to see how that would imply that there is a war for
America's soul (whatever you think *that* is), or that the religious right
is correct about *anything*.

> Truly amazed,

The opinions you refer to are indeed amazing.  Unfortunately, they have
nothing to do with me or my previous post.

> michael mcdonald

John L. Scott
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:46:38 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)

>DATE:   30 Dec 92 17:07:31 GMT
>FROM:   John McCarthy <jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
[....]
>proponents of
>indoctrination have often argued that all schooling is indoctrination
>anyway, and therefore when their side has the power, there is no
>reason not to lay it on thick.

Well, not quite. Education (in all actually existing cases) involves 
something that might be called, neutrally, the transmission of values. 
This process will be referred to as "indoctrination" by those who don't 
share the values being transmitted. So arguments about "indoctrination" 
are really just mystified and confused arguments about what values to 
transmit, and (by implication) what the values of the society should be. 

[....]
>Me, I belong to the "silent generation" [....]

Now *this* is an incredible claim.

--Michael Smith
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: thomasd@tps.COM (Thomas W. Day)
Subject: Re: Heaven is Under Our Feet by Don Henley and Dave Marsh
Organization: TPS
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:31:53 GMT

In article <C01uHA.32H@csn.org> sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock) writes:

>HEAVEN IS UNDER OUR FEET: A BOOK FOR WALDEN WOODS, edited by Don
>Henley and Dave Marsh.  Berkeley Publishing Group, 200 Madison Ave,
>N.Y., NY  10016.  Illustrated.  292 pp., $9.95 paper.  
>0-425-13546-2

>     Buy this book for the idea that some of your money will help
>preserve an area that inspired one of America's foremost natural-
>ists, not because you believe that the book contains great writing. 
>The only exceptional passages here are the extensive quotes from
>Thoreau, but don't miss Kirstie Alley asking "Why can't we learn
>from the past?" or Tom Hanks reminiscing about his "Weekly Reader."

Wouldn't it be more logical to donate cash to the Sierra Club or some 
organization working to preserve more than a second-rate rock star's home?  
You couldn't be more right about his "consumptive lifestyle."  But that goes 
for all of the megawatt musicians, doesn't it?
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Followup-To: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 13:24:56 GMT
X-Posted-From: iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <C01uB5.2Mo@csn.org>, sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock) wrote:
> 
> EDUCATION AND THE ENVIRONMENT: LEARNING TO LIVE WITH LIMITS by
> Gregory A. Smith.  State University of New York Press, State
> University Plaza, Albany, N.Y., 12246.  Index, bibliography, notes. 
> 185 pp., $12.95 paper.  0-7914-1138-9

> There are many fundamental procedures,
> Smith says, but most important is a shift away from "preparing
> children to think of themselves as individuals 

Hoo boy!

> who must sell their
> talents in a competitive job market if they are to succeed."  
>      This philosophy is at odds with Smith's vision of students who
> develop "the ability to cooperate and enter into alliances with
> others to solve common problems and to recognize the fundamental
> interdependence that people share with one another."  Students must
> be socialized to understand the social costs of environmental
> degradation and develop self-restraint.

Ah, good.  Yet another reason to homeschool my children.

John L. Scott
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 06:04:53 GMT

sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock):
>...students who develop "the ability to cooperate and enter into alliances 
>with others to solve common problems and to recognize the fundamental
>interdependence that people share with one another."  Students must
>be socialized to understand the social costs of environmental degradation
>and develop self-restraint.
>...
>The book is a must for courses in education, environment, and public policy.

Surely it's only a 'must' if you believe that environmental degradation can
be reversed through self-restraint, *and* that if students realized this they
would exercise self-restraint as adults, *and* that understanding the social 
costs of environmental degradation is essentially a matter of socialization,
*and* that we know how to effectively teach cooperation, *and* ...

As it is, I gather from your review that the author is calling on us to
train students to share his opinions.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine  -- Edmund Spenser


Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock)
Subject: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 01:47:28 GMT

EDUCATION AND THE ENVIRONMENT: LEARNING TO LIVE WITH LIMITS by
Gregory A. Smith.  State University of New York Press, State
University Plaza, Albany, N.Y., 12246.  Index, bibliography, notes. 
185 pp., $12.95 paper.  0-7914-1138-9

                             REVIEW

     Will environmental degradation shape the way students are
taught about the environment, or will changes in environmental
education lessen our environmental crisis?  Smith says that there
needs to be drastic changes in the emphasis of our educational
curriculum (especially in economics) if the environment is to be
given more consideration.
     What can educators change in their curriculums to increase
environmental awareness?  There are many fundamental procedures,
Smith says, but most important is a shift away from "preparing
children to think of themselves as individuals who must sell their
talents in a competitive job market if they are to succeed."  
     This philosophy is at odds with Smith's vision of students who
develop "the ability to cooperate and enter into alliances with
others to solve common problems and to recognize the fundamental
interdependence that people share with one another."  Students must
be socialized to understand the social costs of environmental
degradation and develop self-restraint.
     In "Education and the Environment," Smith traces the failure
of educators to consider the limitations imposed by the planet in
their academic programs.  Smith rejects the worldview or ideology
of "modernism," in favor of those stressing human interdependence
and respect for the natural world.  He then identifies educational
institutions and programs that embrace these principles, such as
Schools For At-Risk Youth in Wisconsin, Sierra Mountain High School
in Grass Valley, Ca., The Media Academy in Oakland, Ca., and St
Mary's on the Andreafsky, near Bethel, Alaska.
     "Education and the Environment" suggests radical departures
from current educational practices, but Smith is correct when he
says that these practices cannot be sustained.  The book is a must
for courses in education, environment, and public policy.

Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk,environment
From: mjvande@pbhye.PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman)
Subject: Re: Sacred mountains of the World by Edwin Bernbaum
Reply-To: mjvande@PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:41:06 GMT

>feet high.  There are those who go so far as to claim records for
>climbing them in the least amount of time.  Bernbaum's new release
>is just the item for those with loftier goals:  climbing all of the
>sacred peaks.
>     In this paperback edition of "Sacred Mountains of the World,"
>readers are guided through the mystical mountains of the world and
>the religions that have adopted them as spiritual points of
>reference.  Included are Annapurna (Himalayas), T'ai Shan (China),
>Mt. Fuji (Japan), Ayers Rock (Australia), Mt. Athos (Greece), Mt.
>Sinai (Egypt), Mt. Zion (Israel), the San Francisco Peaks (South-
>western U.S.), and a multitude of others.

Just like the Sierra Club: use the sacred peaks for their own pleasure!
How can a mountain be sacred and be climbed at the same time? Is 
nothing sacred to the Sierra Club? (except their own pleasure)
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:04:36 GMT

"Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>:
>Education (in all actually existing cases) involves something that might 
>be called, neutrally, the transmission of values. This process will be 
>referred to as "indoctrination" by those who don't share the values being 
>transmitted. So arguments about "indoctrination" are really just mystified 
>and confused arguments about what values to transmit

To an extent.  But most readers will have understood JM's use of the
word to carry a somewhat more specific freight, so it was a reasonable
shorthand.  Until relatively recently, most educators didn't think
in terms of transmitting values; many or most honestly believed what
they were teaching to be value-free.  There is surely a difference
between reinforcing the norms of the dominant culture as a byproduct,
and making a conscious decision to select and teach one of several
competing value systems.

There's a succession from "we're just teaching facts and skills and 
scholarship" to "you don't realize it, but you're also teaching values" to 
"and other values that you don't teach also have validity" to "we should be 
teaching my values and not yours".  I think it's meaningful to use the
term 'indoctrination' to distinguish the last of these stances from the
preceeding ones.

>--Michael Smith

Ah!  Judging by your last name, you must be related to Gregory A Smith.
That explains it...

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine  -- Edmund Spenser

Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk,environment
From: kasprj@jec310.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Sacred mountains of the World by Edwin Bernbaum
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:00:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.154106.20354@pbhye.PacBell.COM>, mjvande@pbhye.PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman) writes:
|> 
|> How can a mountain be sacred and be climbed at the same time? 
 
 You have a very narrow definition of "sacred". Perhaps the climbing of the
mountain is itself a sacred act.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Sam Adams,Spaten# Life is too short #Hudson Lager,Beck's 
     \_| Pilsener Urquell#to drink cheap beer#Pete's Wicked Ale
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 


Xref: sparky alt.books.reviews:141 rec.arts.books:23655 sci.environment:14199 talk.environment:5321
From: sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock)
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Date: 1 Jan 93 19:52:16 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.


When I said that there is a curricular bias toward consumption, I was
merely reflecting on several economics and political science classes I
have taken that failed to mention that the idea of tempering consumption
with notions of sustainability.  -- Steve
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 13:42:00 GMT

In article <scottj-301292082245@iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu>, scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott) writes:
>In article <C01uB5.2Mo@csn.org>, sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock) wrote:
>> 
>> EDUCATION AND THE ENVIRONMENT: LEARNING TO LIVE WITH LIMITS by
>> Gregory A. Smith.  State University of New York Press, State
>> University Plaza, Albany, N.Y., 12246.  Index, bibliography, notes. 
>> 185 pp., $12.95 paper.  0-7914-1138-9
>
>> There are many fundamental procedures,
>> Smith says, but most important is a shift away from "preparing
>> children to think of themselves as individuals 
>
>Hoo boy!
>
>> who must sell their
>> talents in a competitive job market if they are to succeed."  
>>      This philosophy is at odds with Smith's vision of students who
>> develop "the ability to cooperate and enter into alliances with
>> others to solve common problems and to recognize the fundamental
>> interdependence that people share with one another."  Students must
>> be socialized to understand the social costs of environmental
>> degradation and develop self-restraint.
>
>Ah, good.  Yet another reason to homeschool my children.
>
>John L. Scott


Do you mean to tell me that with generations of kids having been profoundly
socialized to blithely accept all sorts of thinks of dubious value (like
most of America's wars), you can genuinely get up in arms at the prospect
of kids being socialized to "understand the social costs of environmental
degradation"?  (Wow! sounds so insidious it must be a Satanic plot or
something!)

Maybe that jerk Pat Buchanan was right after all, maybe this *is* a war for
America's soul, if such socialization can really strike you as "radical."

Truly amazed,
michael mcdonald
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:59:38

In article <C03Lwz.J3@csn.org> sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock) writes:

   Xref: CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU rec.arts.books:55629 sci.environment:27002 talk.environment:9842
   Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews,rec.arts.books,sci.environment,talk.environment