HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 22 Jul 92 02:05:18 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <1992Jul21.211216.23641@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>  Where does this end?  Is there some sort of guideline which we could
>follow when making these sorts of proscriptions or is it essentially
>arbitrary and dependent on the whim of the moment?

It's arbitrary and dependent on the whim of the moment.

>  This is where the quagmire of forced association leads.

No one is being forced to associate with anybody.  No one is being
forced to open a business in the first place.

>Under such 
>a bizantine legal framework there is no way a reasonable business person
>could determine what discrimination is and what it is not, thus making
>a mockery of the entire problem....

I'm not sure I would use the word "mockery" but we do have a problem
here and now.  A theatre owner doesn't know if he has the right to
evict a customer who is disrupting the movie (don't waste your time
with the fine print on the theatre ticket).  Store owners don't
know how rude, foul, or unbathed a customer has to be before they
ask him to leave.  "Head shops" are closed because it is assumed that
customers would do illegal things with the merchandise (in this case
we are *all* discriminated against).

It's a fine line.  To say that any business can discriminate for *any*
reason is moot.  Such a society does not exist (at least not here).
A prospering business in our real life society is prospering, in part,
because of the way our society works for better or for worse.

Although I find Libertarianism a fascinating concept I have never heard
anyone truly explain how a Libertarian society evolves from scratch.
Who has the land?  Who owns the businesses?  How did they get the land?
How did they get the businesses?  How far back do we have to trace this
evolution?  Who would own the businesses today if the USA had been
Libertarian for the past 100 years?  200 years?  How would the outcome
of that evolution be determined?  


-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
From: jbelury@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Josh Belury)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Request - Sexuality in Fantasy
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:11:36 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

What about J. Haldeman's novel "the Forever War".  It's about a group of
military who come back 26 years later but due to relativity they are 
really only about 8 months older.  When they do come back the whole world
is homosexual and they are the only straight people left (men and women).
Pretty good.  
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:45:06 GMT

fj> fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
gs> Gary Strand

fj> with total disregard of things like peer-pressure, basic mine-is-mine
fj> like-me-not-like-me instincts. People aren't rational.

gs> I disagree strongly. [...] [Y]ou are a sufficiently rational person. Now, 
gs> why do you believe so few others are?

fj> Groups aren't.

  But you don't interact with groups, you interact with individuals.

fj> Individuals can be. 'Why would I not sell to that black person? Why should
fj> I hate that lesbian?' Those doubts can creep into a mind. But when faced
fj> with a peer-group to tell tham that it's ok to be bigoted...I've seen minds
fj> close in front of me too many times.

  So, basically, collectivism/tribalism is bad. I don't think that there's a
  single libertarian who would disagree with that. But, since so many people
  are into lumping individuals into groups, it isn't surprising that those
  who can see only groups get bit on the ass. You can't practice tribalism
  and collectivism and expect to avoid the consequences thereof.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32507 ba.motss:1348
From: Jym Dyer <jym@mica.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.motss,ba.motss
Subject: ACTIVISM: (REMINDER) Give Levi-Strauss A Call!
Date: 25 Jul 1992 05:52:11 GMT
Organization: The Naughty Peahen Party Line
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: jym@remarque.berkeley.edu

[Also Posted to Queer Nation Mailing List]

=o= Folks might remember earlier messages suggesting that
folks call Levi-Strauss and express support for their decision
to withdraw support from the BSA for their homophobic discrim-
inatory policies.

=o= I've been in touch with a good number of people who've
given Levi's a supportive call.  The informal feedback they've
received suggests that most of the calls have been supportive.

=o= However, the American Family Association's newsletter just
came out, and publisher Rev. Donald Wildmon has targetted Levi's
for calls of protest from his flock.  (You may remember Wildmon
as the guy who "found" Satanic messages in the theme song to
the _Mr._Ed_ TV show, and who claimed that Mighty Mouse snorted
cocaine.)

=o= So I'd like to remind folks to give Levi's a call and let
them know you support them.  This is their 800 number:

			  800/872-5384

You'll get a touch-tone menu -- press "1" for the charitable
contributions line.

=o= You might want to extend the courtesy of calling them at
their non-800 number, especially if you live near San Francisco.
That number is 415/544-6000.
    <_Jym_>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:09:34 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.164330.800@auto-trol.com>, katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:
> But all too recent history proves that it's not true. The reality of the
> South in the 1950s is that there often was no one else that would sell to
> Blacks.  

  Do not confuse Jim Crow _laws_, where companies were forbidden to sell
to blacks -- definitely not libertarian.

> 
> : "white monkeys" in my store. Now, if no one will sell to you, then you
> : have a reason for complaint.
> : 
> But under libertarianism, there would be no one to complain to, and no 
> mechanism for complaining.  And that's exactly why libertarianism, while 
> wonderful in theory, would in reality be a nightmare for minorities.  

  Well, not exactly. One *very* good way to complain is with your wallet;
preferably with lots of noise. Boycotts can be very powerful incentives to
whip companies into shape. Of course this does cut both ways, considering
that Wells is thinking about modifying their position on the BSA cutoff.
On the whole though, exposing bigots for exactly what they are is a
pretty powerful incentive to stop. Companies do not want controversy
(generally) and hard line moralistic adgendas are not normally well 
received. This is really the core of why I think that capitalism works in
the long run for social issues: the incentive is toward inclusion rather
than exclusion.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii)
Subject: Re: new hankie codes?
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:42:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.183841.10126@spdcc.com> urso@spdcc.com (Stephen Chappell) writes:
>It was amusing the other day to see a red hankie in the right pocket of this
>man holding on tightless with his MOTOS partner.  I suspect he didn't 
>realise quite what it meant.
> 

I swear if I see something like that in my area, I'll burst out in laughter
and then probably be summarily bashed by the "flaggers"

Look for me on the evening national news!

Peter Thomas

-- 
"I'll lose my beard when they shave it from my cold, dead face!"

Quote from the Razor's Anonymous Handbook
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:26:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: amhux2.1992Jul30.152626.15770
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA

In article <1992Jul28.210715.4114@wam.umd.edu> aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul24.171336.24814@amhux2.amherst.edu>,  
>twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>
>>Yes.  If they do not actively and visibly reject it and work to eliminate
>>it, every minute of every day, you are recreating it and are to blame for
>>it.  Becuase you benefit from it, you are more responsible to fix it than
>>thise who are not.  Are you too stupid to understand the difference
>>between responsibility and blame?

Although I agree with that statement, I did not write it.  Roger
Klorese did.

>However, lets suppose that there is a white-heterosexual-male who actively  
>opposes segregation and all the other things. He still is a  
>white-heterosexual-male. And, if we keep generalization, he is still to  
>blame for what he is working to change.

No.  If he is working as hard as he can to fight racist and sexist
powers, then it is difficult, I claim, to say that he's responsible
for its continued existence.  Only when he acknowledges the existence
of those powers, continues to benefit from them, but refuses to work
to eradicate them, can he be held responsible for their oppression.

So say I, at least.  I may easily be missing something.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "You mean there are TWO of you, Pierce?
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  God help us all."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Major Charles Emerson Winchester III
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhb@ucs.usl.edu (Bird Rendell H.)
Subject: Re: Jeopardy (was: Re: about SF gay pride)
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:05:48 GMT

Greg Parkinson sez (re: the man who won the most $$$ on Jeopardy}:

>He does have
>one small flaw, and that is that he never seemed
>to show any interest in *me*.  


*That* is not a 'small flaw', that is a gaping mental psychosis!!


For those who haven't met Greg -- trust me on this one.


;-)


Rendell
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: LBG Actors (was: Gay/Lesbian Characters)
Date: 29 Jul 92 03:43:29 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <1992Jul23.194328.4847@auto-trol.com> katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:
>Don't forget "Bewitched", with at least 3 to its credit:
>
>Paul Lynde, everyone's favorite nelly uncle (Uncle Arthur)
>Agnes Moorehead (Endora)
>Dick Sargent (Darren II)
>
>Dick Sargent is Out and Proud!

It seems that one of the supermarket tabloids this week has a story 
about the gay folks on "Bewitched".  Perhaps someone here is shameless
enough to pick up a copy and summerize for us.

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Basket Weaving Engineering (was Re: Engineer bashing)
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:32:16 GMT
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton

akbar@cs.mcgill.ca (Alain BOUCHARD) wrote: 
->Major advancements in modern science were often by-products of novelties,
->pranks, jokes and gadgets industry.  We all know of Galileo's work on the
->Pocket Spy Telescope; Marconi's Secret Pocket Pen Radio; and Newton's Rear
->View Glasses.

where can i get some of these Rear View Glasses?

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii)
Subject: Re: new hankie codes?
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 23:44:36 GMT

In article <1315@dosbears> drp@dosbears.uucp writes:
>Like Barney Frank said to the interviewer asking about Clinton and
>Flowers; you're asking us about what straight people do?

Well, I'm hoping that those two were straight boys.  The idea of someone
advertising themselves as a bondage Top or piercing Top at the age of 18 (or
possibly younger)  gives me the shivers and NOT from excitment!!

Where's the damn fashion police when you need 'em?

Peter Thomas

-- 
"I'll lose my beard when they shave it from my cold, dead face!"

Quote from the Razor's Anonymous Handbook
From: drp@dosbears.UUCP (David R. Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: new hankie codes?
Date: 23 Jul 92 07:31:40 GMT
Reply-To: drp@dosbears.uucp
Organization: DosBears

In article <1992Jul23.034157.9414@uwm.edu> pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii) writes:
>>
>I was posting this to see if there was some new code out amongst the young
>straight crowd.

Like Barney Frank said to the interviewer asking about Clinton and
Flowers; you're asking us about what straight people do?

--
       David R. Preston  drp@dosbears.uucp dosbears@netcom.com
          We're here, we're bored, but we won't be ignored!
   B4 f+ t- k+ s-/+ r P8/4 S6 b+/- g- l-/+ y- z/! n o+/++ x a+ u v-- j++
          D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
From: drp@dosbears.UUCP (David R. Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: HIV- cases of full blown AIDS?
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:21:01 GMT
Reply-To: drp@dosbears.uucp
Organization: DosBears

In article <1992Jul23.004722.22243@trentu.ca> xtkmg@trentu.ca (Kate Gregory) writes:
>In article <1309@dosbears> drp@dosbears.uucp writes:
>>In article <1dfmv+l.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>>>"AIDS" stands for Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome.  It's the name for a
>>
>>Oops, in a moment of sleepiness I posted that AIDS was Auto-Immune...,
>>of course, Jack is right, it's Acquired Immune..., to differentiate
>>it from being born without an active immune system. 
>
>I was sure that it was, rather than an acquired deficiency as David
>suggests, a deficiency in the acquired immune system, which is all
>the immunity you get by having had something rather than the far
>more limit immunities you're born with.

No. HIV attacks the actual white blood cells (T-4, etc.) that make up
the immune system. This has nothing to do with the immunity acquired
against "child-hood" diseases, etc. Otherwise, we'd see HIV+ people
getting mumps, chicken pox, measles, etc., instead of the previously
exotic diseases that are markers for AIDS.

--
       David R. Preston  drp@dosbears.uucp dosbears@netcom.com
          We're here, we're bored, but we won't be ignored!
   B4 f+ t- k+ s-/+ r P8/4 S6 b+/- g- l-/+ y- z/! n o+/++ x a+ u v-- j++
          D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32286 talk.politics.misc:35541 alt.individualism:4475 alt.activism:13334
From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism,alt.activism
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:38:16 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Jul23.013635.22037@ncar.ucar.edu> gary@isis.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:

>  Basically, just because I'm a white het male doesn't mean you can tar me
>  with the same brush as you do other individuals who happen to be white,
>  het, and male.

I don't think that white heterosexual males are inherently bad people.  I
just think that they have much less understanding of discrimination than
any other group.


>  Defensive? You bet.

I'll tell you something that you are not going to like, and I bet that almost
any woman or gay man you ask will agree with me:

There is one group of people who frighten me more than any other (if I see
them on the street, I will get the fuck into a safe place):  heterosexual
males between the ages of 16 and 25.

Do you fall in that group?  Do you understand why I am afraid of them?


FWA
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin)
Subject: Re: The sexiest man on TV
Originator: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 19:12:41 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

sik@cci632.cci.com (Shawn Kammerdiener):
> 	Does anyone find the two statements above to be somewhat conflicting
> or is it just me.

it's you.

> Human behaviour should include the notion that someone
> is not an idiot simply beacuse they are strayt, no more than someone is
> a pervert simply because they are gay.

umm, i didn't say that "someone is an idiot because they're straight."
i said that someone is an idiot if they tell us they're straight in a
space considered to be ours.  it's offensive, and i demand more human
behavior from you.  got it?
-- 
Jason Coughlin ( jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com )
Queer Without A Cause!
"I find myself suddenly in the world, and I recognize that I have one
right alone: that of demanding human behavior of the other." -- Fanon
Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.tv.uk,rec.arts.tv.soaps,soc.bi,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: peg1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Beth Groce)
Subject: Re: Do You Remember any Gay/Lesbian Characters on TV Series?
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:49:45 GMT

aj@CS.ORST.EDU (AJ) writes:

>Roseanne's boss on "Roseanne" was gay (played by ....what was his name???
>Martin Moll maybe?).

Although I haven't watched too much of "Roseanne" I believe you're talking
about Martin Mull.  I also believe that Michael Des Barres appeared as
Mull's lover.

Beth Groce
peg1@Ra.MsState.Edu
From: dfpedro@nv2.uswnvg.com (Donn F. Pedro)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Vatican equates homosexuality with mental illness
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:23:28 GMT
Reply-To: dfpedro@uswnvg.com.UUCP (Donn F. Pedro)
Organization: I don't speak for them anyway.

In article <1992Jul22.220546.487@adobe.com> asente@adobe.com (A Usenet Pal) writes:
>
>Of course all of us Catholic boys were abused as children.  Of course, so
>were all the Jews and all the Protestants and all the atheists, too.  Didn't
>you know that we were all abused as children and our families are all
>disfunctional?  The modern term for what used to be called "child-rearing" is
>"abuse."

Good point but, some of what was crouched under the name of "child rearing"
has been, in fact, abuse.

There are always extremes.




     Donn Pedro ....................................dfpedro@uswnvg.com

		     There are no ordinary moments.
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Vatican equates homosexuality with mental illness
Date: 23 Jul 92 05:36:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Jul23.053617.3788
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Jul22.220546.487@adobe.com> asente@adobe.com (A Usenet Pal) writes:
>Of course all of us Catholic boys were abused as children.  Of course, so
>were all the Jews and all the Protestants and all the atheists, too.

Sometimes I think that all children raised in a religion (whether
Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, or B'hai for that matter) have been
abused.

To me, religion is very important, one of the most important questions
humankind faces. The notion that you'd teach your children that your
own particular brand of religion is best frightens me.

Let children find their own religion.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/       This is the time, and this is the record of the time
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32240 rec.arts.tv:15192 rec.arts.tv.uk:4439 rec.arts.tv.soaps:26115 soc.bi:9406 alt.politics.homosexuality:5130
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.tv.uk,rec.arts.tv.soaps,soc.bi,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Do You Remember any Gay/Lesbian Characters on TV Series?
Date: 22 Jul 92 11:33:22 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Originator: netnews@uts.mcc.ac.uk

There was one in Eastenders - Colin? - who moved out of the square
Also a cook/chef in Eastenders had HIV and no girlfriend but I don't recall 
it being explicit he was gay.
The bookshop owner in After Henry
The manager of the food place where Roseanne works

Post your list!

+--Great Quotes of our Time-------------------------------------------+
|        You should never have a hobby that eats                      |
+--------------------------------------Amarillo Slim Preston----------+          
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England  (44)061-275-6033   |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism,alt.activism
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:58:54 GMT

In article <nlsm19o@zola.esd.sgi.com> portuesi@tweezers.esd.sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) writes:


>Which reminds me of the dinner I had with my friend Robert
>last week, who told me about a friend of his who was
>attacked by a dozen heterosexual males between 16 and
>25 (in this case, with a keg of beer in the back of the
>truck) and brutally beaten for being gay.  This person
>spent the better part of a day in surgery, while the
>doctors attempted to stitch together and rejoin his
>internal organs.

>Maybe if you lived in a situation where brutal beatings
>were a reality for not only you but also your friends, you
>might have at least some small basis for understanding
>the points Jeff is trying to make in this discussion.

This type of assault is reprehensable, and ALREADY illegal.  I don't see how 
it relates to bias laws.

And I was, for many years, a member of a group that got beaten for being 
different.
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: I HAVE THREADING
From: mike@batpad.lgb.ca.us (mike batchelor)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 04:11:55 PDT
Distribution: world               
Organization: The Batchelor Pad

bfbear@penn.Gwinnett.COM (Penn Collins) writes:

> mike@batpad.lgb.ca.us (mike batchelor) gushes:
> 
> > I am so pleased with this new reader.  It threads.
> > 
> > And it has a filter file.
> > 
> > Joy.  Bliss.  I can tackle soc.motss again.

> and here we thought it would was hard to make Mike happy....

If it's hard, Mike is happy anyway.

> 
> (what- no auto-flame function?)

What can you expect from MSDOS?



[] ---
[] Mike Batchelor -- mike@batpad.lgb.ca.us
[] Long Beach, California
[] DESQview/X:  turns your Sun into a PC peripheral.