HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: BADERTINOVS%NEWS@adminb.rferl.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 4 Jan 93 17:06:29 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

All of this talk about creating a 'sanitary cordon' around Russia
is ridiculous. Russia will not be able to preserve itself in its
current form. It is going to DISINTEGRATE just like the former USSR
did. So, in the future there will be many 'cordons' criss-crossing
Russia in all directions. The transition to the market economy makes
the disintegration of Russia an inevitability.

This is a positive development: having a huge territory doesn't give
the ordinary Russians any advantages whatsoever. (Citizens of a tiny
Luxemburg are welthier and happier than Russians, their freedom of
movement and travel all over the world makes the size of the country
irrelevant). Only the Russian nomenklatura is interested in preserving
a 'united and undivided Russia'. Apart from nomenklatura, some Russian
emigres and nationalists of all persuasions still dream about the revival
of 'Great Russia". But those people forget that the only price for preser-
ving the empire is totalitarianism. Dictatorship is THE ONLY way to
prevent Russia from disintegrating. Economic separatism of Russian
regions like Siberia will play a much more important role in this process
than the struglle of national minorities for self-determination.
Chechnja is only the beginning of the chain reaction that will turn
Russia into a conglomerate of small Greece-sized countries. And I
repeat: this is a POSITIVE process. Rusiisans will only benefit from
that.

Sabirjan.
From: BADERTINOVS%NEWS@adminb.rferl.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 12 Jan 93 13:43:06 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

From Red Herring:
>First, those who choose to stay in the Lebanon-sized remnants of
>Russia would be severely discriminated against.

Who will discriminate them? After the disintegration of Russia, most
of the 'remnant states' will be populated mostly by Russians. Why?
Because the driving force behind the disintegration is economic
separatism of predominantly Russian regions, not the struggle of
national minorities for self-determination. Anyone who follows the
Russian press knows that the threat (or a blessing?) of disintegration
is very real. Take as an example an organisation called Sibirskoye
Soglasheniye. It unites 19 regions in Siberia which are resenful of
Moscow's exploitation of their natural resources. Some newspapers in
Siberia already discuss the composition of future governments in those
Siberian regions which are well on the way to sovereignty.

For some reason, the Western press doesn't give enough coverage to
the process of disintegration that is going on in Russia. For many
people it is something very difficult to swallow. The breakdown of
the USSR didn't give them any hints, I guess.

Sabirjan.
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 5 Jan 1993 01:06:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <01GT4O8QSG6Q8Y5OCG@MUVAXJ.RFERL.ORG> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> writes:
>
>the ordinary Russians any advantages whatsoever. (Citizens of a tiny
>Luxemburg are welthier and happier than Russians, their freedom of
>movement and travel all over the world makes the size of the country
>irrelevant). 

I would absolutely agree that Lexembrjian hog is much better fed and happier
than Russian. People are different matter, it's a nice feeling to be member
of Great Nation. To know that "we launched first man in space, i pochetnyj
karaul u nas vot-takoj!". I'm not saying that it's better than beeing well-fed,
but I do not see contradiction between two. USA gives a good example of 
well-fed Great Nation.

>of 'Great Russia". But those people forget that the only price for preser-
>ving the empire is totalitarianism. 

See above about USA. Other way is assimilation, isn't it?

>Russia into a conglomerate of small Greece-sized countries. 

Populated by Southern Moscovites, Northen Moscovites, Central Tuljaks,
outer Tuljaks and hundereds of other distinct nations, of which Chechnja
is most numerous and greatest.

>Rusiisans will only benefit from
>that.

Who? North Moscovites of Outer Tuljaks?

Yury M.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: dmbriggs@vela.acs.oakland.edu (BRIGGS DENNIS M)
Subject: female soviet pen-pals
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:34:16 GMT


>>>someone as well read as you must have read Sophocles' "Oedipus Rex".. 
>>>And Oedipus comes from greek mythology.                        ^^^

Just asking ... wouldn't it be "Oedipus the King", since Latin came
after the Greeks?

--Mike Briggs 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Garrett Goebel)
Subject: To Those Located in Russia
Keywords: visas
Organization: Rechenzentrum der Universitaet Freiburg, Deutschland
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 14:22:37 GMT

Hello,

Having received no response last time, I try again.

I wish to visit the Soviet Union between February and April.

I am working on getting a visa but have run into a problem...

Does anyone know how to go about getting an "invitation"...
or do you know of someone I could contact who could give me one?

Does anyone know the email addresses for the US and Russian Embassies 
in Moscow?


thanks in advance...

ggoebel
-- 
Garrett Goebel,8811500 <ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>
From: covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 5 Jan 93 19:19:02 GMT

in article <1993Jan5.151541.25964@synapse.bms.com>, henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff) says:
# 
# Problems with Chechnya & Chechens are extremely exagurated  here.
# While I can not deny that many of Chechens are into black marketeering & shady deals,
# so is with many Georgian Jews living in Israel for instance.

Oh, how interesting! You mean, the Geogian Jews in Israel proclaimed
their independence from Izrael? And their leader said, that, if 
anything goes wrong, he would order to explode A-bombs on Izrael's
territory and regular bombs in the Jerusalem metro (sorry, buses)?

# May be it is endemic for the Caucasus... There was always underground business there 
# and bloody retaliations by used to be business partners.
# But in current situation in Russia, Chechens are chosen to become scape-goats
# for the enormous problems Russia is facing.
# Traditionally, there would be Jews to blame, but people are tired of this old trick,

And, BTW, people are tired of those, who are always complaining,
appropriate or not, about the Jews being the scape-goats.

# besides it will damage foreign relations.
# Resentment against Georgians, Chechens, Azeris selling farm produce at Moscow markets
# in the middle of winter (at astronomical prices) was always tremendous.
# So, why not to tell Russians that the source of their difficult conditions are
# Chechens ?

I belive that there is a way. You must press the Izrael's goverment to accept
all those poor Chechens who are persecuted on Moscow's markets, as refugees.

# When they will be done with Chechens, who will be next to blame? Tatars?

Well, well. Sargikian-Mutlian would definitely applaud this!

# 
# 
# Henry. 
-- 
  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
 *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
 *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:15:41 GMT
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI

Problems with Chechnya & Chechens are extremely exagurated  here.
While I can not deny that many of Chechens are into black marketeering & shady deals,
so is with many Georgian Jews living in Israel for instance.
May be it is endemic for the Caucasus... There was always underground business there 
and bloody retaliations by used to be business partners.
But in current situation in Russia, Chechens are chosen to become scape-goats
for the enormous problems Russia is facing.
Traditionally, there would be Jews to blame, but people are tired of this old trick,
besides it will damage foreign relations.
Resentment against Georgians, Chechens, Azeris selling farm produce at Moscow markets
in the middle of winter (at astronomical prices) was always tremendous.
So, why not to tell Russians that the source of their difficult conditions are
Chechens ?
When they will be done with Chechens, who will be next to blame? Tatars?


Henry.
From: andrei@hanauma.stanford.edu (Andrei Popovici)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Date: 8 Jan 1993 21:59:55 GMT
Organization: Stanford University, Department of Geophysics
NNTP-Posting-Host: hanauma.stanford.edu

 I just think it is ironic that the same people who are now invoking
 human rights arguments in the Estonia debate were defending the abuses
 in the Dniester republic in a discussion only a few months ago.
 It is hard not to think that maybe Russian nationalism/imperialism
 has a lot more to do with this than defending some ideals.

The Russian  government (and people on the net as well) would have 
a lot more credibility if they didn't change their standards according
to their interests.

Andrei

andrei@leland.stanford.edu
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Soviet military training
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:32:17 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1993Jan5.005016.19003@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

> 	You probably mean that you outflamed Michael.
> 	Surely you did not. Generic PC flames are
> 	dozen per dime, you know.

Mea culpa. I overdid it and I apologize to the net.

I won't be replying in kind to Mr. K's sniper 
attacks.

Again I apologize to netland.
-- 

	mark	

   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey
From: LODEESENJ@adminb.rferl.org (Username was LODEESEN)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 13 Jan 93 03:54:53 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

I thought Yuri M's balance between pride in nation and recognition of others
and of other possibilities and opportunities and how they vary depending on
one's background was first rate.  He has neither taken the admirable but
unrealistic stand of those who feel that (national) background is
irrelevant nor has he permitted defence of nationality to drive him into
offending others.  Even I, born in a town outside of Miami called Coconut
Grove will agree that my prospects as a coconut picker would have confined
me to certain climes and that the educations which are only available in a
limited number of countries and languages give the people to whom those
countries and languages are native an advantage over others.  That human
genius does not correspond to those limitations, however, is ably evidenced
by the contributions of those from the most isolated of cultures provided they
acquire and give.  Thanks to Yuri M.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Chechens
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:38:01 GMT

BADERTINOVS%NEWS@adminb.rferl.org wrote:
: From Sabirjan:
: 
: To put it simply, disintegration of empires is part of the global
: process of economic integration. Yes, it sounds paradoxical, doesn't
: it? But it seems to be a contradiction only from a superficial point
: of view. The former Soviet empire consisted of many disparate regions
: linked to each other economically in a very artificial and arbitrary
: way.

 For me your statement  and analysis makes real sence. Thanks for it.
I also think that it is the geoeconomical areas and thinking is the
future, not geopolitical thinking which still is very strong in Russia.
That is what makes it difficult. An example of thinking in old way 
is the trade-ambargo Russia has made to Estonia.

If the russians could see the whole thing in a new light they would
do the contrary, promote trade with Estonia, thinking geo-economically.

The world is more, I think an economical battle-ground in the future,
than a political one. Those states who are geo-economically in  a favorable
position and understand its meaning in " a new world order" and take 
benefit of it  make progress. Your example of Sibiria or Skahalin is
a good one, there was created artificial economical connections against
the geo-economical situation of those areas.
regards,
jarmo
From: LODEESENJ@adminb.rferl.org (Username was LODEESEN)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Date: 9 Jan 93 00:33:49 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

Most of the discussion in Bilingualism-a good cause! illustrates more than it
elucidates the problems of clashes between nationalities.  Some people have
pointed out that consistent arguments would be more persuasive, but then
under the inspriation of their own aspirations have gone on to be just as
inconsistent as those they attack.  The issue is so important that it commands
great emotional loyalty and too important to be left to the betrayal of values
which is implicit in that loyalty.  Why not just call each other ugly names,
be done with it, and then thank each other for the opportunity given for the
feeling of relief which follows the outburst?  The opportunity for communication
here is being wasted.
From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: hu$wyj spisok reposted
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:59:27 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

In article <1993Jan7.202718.15994@synapse.bms.com> henry@bms.com writes:
>Thanks Dimitri for a huge dose of durty Russian slang you cordially shared with worldwide netters !
>I understand that You probably came from a troubled family
>where using dirty slang was a fact of life, but still it would be nice if you had some respect  and consideration for other people, and women particular...
>
>May be I am old-fasion but I still think that your so called x-rated humor does not belong to talk/politics/soviet.
>
>Henry.

I suggest to make some minor  changes in news software so that it'll 
automatically redirect all DV posts to talk.jerks.dull :-(
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:11:38 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1993Jan5.151541.25964@synapse.bms.com> henry@bms.com writes:

>But in current situation in Russia, Chechens are chosen to become scape-goats
>for the enormous problems Russia is facing.

    Right on the money.  The very term "Chechen Mafia" is being used as
    reference to a broad range of Muslim, Georgian and Armenian "commercial 
    structures".  Note that "commercial structure" and "mafia" are used 
    interchangeably in modern Russian, for good reasons.

    In the good old days, the aforementioned peoples were commonly referred
    to as "black-ass" and "churka" (can't translate, something like a
    semi-finished piece of wood).  Both are derogatory labels of somewhat
    paternalistic nature, none sounds nearly as bellicose as "Chechen Mafia".

    I believe that this change in the language reflects a corresponding
    change in attitude toward those peoples - the Russians used to laugh
    at them, now they feel threatened.  For one reason or another, "Chechens" 
    have come to symbolize this new Muslim threat (yes, I know that the
    Armenians as well as many of the Georgians are not Muslim).

>Traditionally, there would be Jews to blame, but people are tired of this old trick,

    I wish they were...  It is that "Jews" symbolize a different kind
    of threat - that of Vestern Kapitalism's.

>When they will be done with Chechens, who will be next to blame? Tatars?

    I think both "Chechens" and "Jews" will endure along with the Russian
    xenophobia.  As long as there is/perceived to be a threat, there will 
    be a bogeyman.

P.S. The above observations are "Russia-centric".  In the Baltics,
Central and Western Europe all xSoviet mafias are branded "Russian".

The Russians themselves usually refer to numerous Russian mafias 
by their geographic locations: "Sheremet'evskaya", "Domodedovskaya",
"Orekhovsko-Borisovskaya", et.al. (speaking of Moscow).



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money" Deep Throat
Disclaimer: Other opinions are mine only
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: muh@physics1 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 12 Jan 1993 18:58:13 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

In article <01GTFORRF0K28Y5Q2H@MUVAXJ.RFERL.ORG> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> writes:
>
>nor inferior to any other nation in the world. My advice to
>Yury M.: Don't waste your time feeling 'proud'. Try to contribute

Thank you for nice advice, but I do not. I'm fully aware of everythink you said,
What I said is that it's a nice feeling to be a memeber of great nation. Will
you advice me not to waste my time reading books, or going to movie or swim in
the ocean?

As for people trying hard to get out of the country of great nation. Most of
them ends up in the country of other great nation. It has other nice feature
in common: it does not make a big difference here who are you ethnically:
you are American. And American nation gets most credits. 

iOne more thing. Living with great nation gives you more possibilities. Of cource
if you are born picker of coconuts, Samoa is good for you. If you are born
storekeeper, everywhere is good for. What about science? What about being
engeneer in aerospace industry? What about ballet, after all.

Yury M.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad)
Subject: Re: s NAU^NOJ TO^KI ZRENIQ, OTKUDA BER$TSQ TAKOE GOWNO, KAK wLADISLAW?
Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, CA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 21:58:01 GMT

The main purpose of the Newsgroups is for us to exchange information anf to
learn something. Today, I have learnt a Russian wisdom:


	Ne trogai govno, chtoby ne vonyalo.


A little older, a little wiser...

Vlad

Employer may disagree
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Stereotypes of Soviet Peoples
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 5 Jan 93 01:37:42 EST
 <Jan.3.15.34.06.1993.27250@pilot.nOrganization <Jan.4.19.40.42.1993.26711@pilot.njin.net>
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <Jan.4.19.40.42.1993.26711@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:

>Most reasonable people oppose war and suffering. The Chechens are
>only an example. I started this posting thread because I got upset
>at the obscene racism of some of the posters. All anyone has to
>do is to replace the word Chechen with 'black', 'hispanic',
>'Jew' or 'American Indian' to see what it boils down to.

	To paraphrase Mark: he admits himself that
	he does not know and care about what truly
	happens in Chechnya. He read the article,
	quickly replaced "Chechens" with "blacks"
	and went nuts from overflown political 
	correctness. A shame, really.

>It was only about 50 years ago that some nitwits thought that
>the world (and specifically some specific Europeans) would have
>been better off, if certain peoples in Europe could be did not
>exist. A few centuries ago, some others thought that they'd
>be better off, if the 'savage' Indians could be taken care of.
>For a few centuries, some people thought that blacks were of
>'low intellectual caliber' and fit only to be slaves. 
>
>I'm surprised that people are still posting this kind of
>obscenity on tps without a murmur by others. Am I alone
>in opposing this ?

	I respect black nationalism (and other kinds
	of extremism) very much, really. The people
	have guts to say "no" to the system
	of conformity. Nevertheless, if
	Black Panters or Nation of Islam got the
	power in some region (say, in NYC) there
	were big terror, bloodletting etc. very soon.

	The similar thing really happened in Chechnya.
	I like Dudaev very much, and one of my friends
	is Chechen. Nevertheless, *if* NoI got the power
	and some PC dope (like you) would defend the
	extremists from accusations basing on his
	PC superstitions (like, all blacks are always 
	oppressed, spit upon, etc.) this would
	be ugly. As it is indeed. Even if some of
	these ideas are true, if someone cannot see
	anything which contradicts PC he is an idiot. 
	PC are the people to be executed first when 
	I get the power. Praise the God I never will :)

	Misha.
From: 20676KCH@msu.bitnet ("Ken.Hendges")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:25:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

SET TPS-L NOMAIL
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 5 Jan 93 03:07:26 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <C0Cq85.Bu7@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:

>     outcome of the Afgan war, will attempt to secede anyway.  The upcoming
>     Russian-Muslim war will be won by the side that will have demonstrated
>     the least regard for the human life.

Ahem... to paraphrase Napolean, it will probably be won by the 
side that's got the bigger bang, the bigger cannons, more soldiers,
more tanks, more fighter planes, and if push comes to shove,
those who have the nuclear missiles :-)..
-- 

	mark	

   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey    
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: vzhivov@alfred.carleton.ca (Vladimir Zhivov)
Subject: Re: hu$wyj spisok reposted
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 03:24:12 GMT

In <1993Jan8.210236.5319@erg.sri.com> vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad) writes:

>In article <1993Jan7.202718.15994@synapse.bms.com> henry@bms.com writes:
>>Thanks Dimitri for a huge dose of durty Russian slang you cordially shared with worldwide netters !
>>I understand that You probably came from a troubled family
>>where using dirty slang was a fact of life, but still it would be nice if you had some respect  and consideration for other people, and women particular...
>>
>>May be I am old-fasion but I still think that your so called x-rated humor does not belong to talk/politics/soviet.
>>
>>Henry.

>What also surprised me was that Dimitri prefaced his list of Russian
>obscenities by announcing that it was provided at the request of some
>"Vlad". I know only 2 Vlads in this group: myself and Vlad from Australia. 
> I personally have never asked Dimitri or anybody else for any such list. I
>have absolutely no interst on this matter: I am neither a psychiatrist nor
>a patholinguist and have no interest in analysing Dimitry's vocabulary. 

>It would be intersting if Vlad from Australia had made such request or if
>we are dealing with another case of violation of Newsgroup ethics.


>Vlad

>Employer may disagree

I'm Vlad from Ottawa and I didn't request it either, though I admit it
was like a breath of "fresh" air from home.

                                                  Vladimir
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet