From: razer@tiamat.hacks.arizona.edu (The Artful Dodger)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: abortion
Date: 12 Apr 92 13:25:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: tiamat.12APR92092535
Reply-To: razer@tiamat.hacks.arizona.edu
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Big Bright Green Pleasure Machines, Inc.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-a4

In article <Mumble>, scm3775@tamsun.tamu.edu (Corpus Delecti) writes...
>CD, glad for the cut and paste facilities in his editor, tries 
>to patch come comments together, and discuss the topic at hand.
>He listens intently as Craig Linderoth says:
>                                      
>[Sorry for the choppiness. -cd]
	Arty nods, also glad for the cut'n'paste editor CD used.

> 
>> To me, life is sacred in all of its forms.  especially since 
>> you never know what that life can give to the world.  
>> Using these beliefs, it is easily seen how I personally believe
>> that abortion is morally wrong. I [also] believe that any killing 
>> is wrong.

	Arty raises an eyebrow.  "While I agree that MOST killing is
wrong, Craig, there are also times when it is nesicary.  I think I'm
one of the few people here, perhaps the only person here, who has
ever actually killed anyone.
	"I don't regret it, as the option was to be killed myself.
Sweeping statements like yours generally ignore special cases,
whereas the world we live in is almost entirely made up of special
cases."

>> I also know that abortion is not an easy decision for most
>> of the people who choose it, (both female and couples).  
> 
>> I say that anyone who wanted an abortion should be screened 
>> and counseled first. Their situation should be analyzed and
>> a third party should be able to decide if it is the only course 
>> of action left after the others have been absolved.  

	Arty looks shocked.  "I, at least, live in America,
where citizens are largely accorded the right to live with 
the consequences of their own decisions.  Having someone
else make this major a choice for me is not something I 
would accept."

> 
>  
>To which Kateri responds:
>> I would bet you anything that the majority of women who 
>> went through this process would, if turned down, resort 
>> to back alley and coat-hanger abortions.  That is what 
>> history has shown us; that is what happens.  Would 
>> you be able, morally, to accept the risk to the mother 
>> in this scenario?
> 
>To which someone [Craig? - Sorry, I lost the attribution] says:
>> Well, I don't feel morally responsible for iv drug users 
>> who get AIDS and die.  Now I may feel sorry for them, 
>> but not responsible.  Why should abortion be any different.
>> If it is against the law and someone decides to do
>> it anyway, I should feel responsible?  
> 
>CD whistles softly. The topic is not an easy one to discuss 
>rationally, but so far, no one has gone off the handle.  CD is 
>suitably impressed.
> 
>"First, Craig, let me compliment you on the fact that your 
>views are consistant.  That is, in my experience, rare for 
>someone holding your opinions on abortion.  I respect that, 
>though I do not share your views.
> 
>"Let me acknowledge the fact that our views on human life 
>are somewhat different.  Long ago I realized that my life, 
>and those of my loved ones, are more important to me than 
>that of J. Q. Assailant.  Death Penalty?  I'm in favor of 
>it, lacking a better way to remove dangerous persons from 
>society."

	"Personally, I'm in favor of public flogging, as 
well... It would be a lot better deterent than two weeks 
of 'Three Hots and a Cot'"

> 
>CD sighs deeply.  "Abortion...  My opinions on this one were 
>forged by the issue staring me in the face a few years back.  
>You are correct.  It was not an easy decision, the reasons for 
>which are nobody's business save our own.  We have both 
>discussed the experience with others since," CD's eyes sparkle
>with determination, "but we have to justify ourselves to no one."
> 
>"I can understand why people are so sharply divided on the 
>issue.  There are a lot of people who are around today because 
>their parents chose to not have an abortion.  And society is a 
>better place for some of them.  Moot argument though.  You can 
>easily postulate that these same children might have grown up 
>to be another Manson, Dahlmer, or Mao.  No one knows, 
>and so the point cannot be argued effectively.

	"In my opinon, there are too many unwanted children in
the world as it is.  It's interesting to me that the same people
are "Pro-Life" are the ones most appaled by abandoned children.
If you want a good argument for abortion, go wander arround Times
Square in Manhattan on a week night."

>"I suppose one of the big questions involved here is: When 
>does life begin?  I don't know the answer to that.  You've 
>first got to define what a human life is.  People are arguing 
>about when it ends for the same reason: theres no clear-cut 
>definition of what it is.  Here we cross over from science to 
>philosophy, and everyone's got their own ideas.  Who's to say 
>which is correct?  Certainly not I.  Everyone makes their own 
>decision...
> 
>"Let counselors decide whether or not an abortion is 
>justified?  Cute idea.  Tell me this, though.  Who chooses the 
>counselors?  Who makes sure that permission cannot be bought 
>and sold in the same way that work permits are sometimes done 
>now?  I know that it is a utopian idea, and therefore 
>impractical, if not impossible to implement.  What bothers me 
>is that you would so easily let the state control your life.
>Personally, I would take to the hills and fight to my dying 
>breath any government that attempts to play god with it's 
>citizens...  Much like the French Maquis during the German 
>occupation of WWII."
> 
	Arty nods in agreement.  "Many of the people I served
with in the NAV joined to protect the freedoms of the people
back home.  I think if those freedoms started being curtailed
in obvious ways, a lot of them would be joining the resistance."

>Corpus turns to Kateri to address her comments on the effects 
>of Craig's plan.  "If the above plan were implimented, what 
>would you want to bet that the government would take steps to 
>insure that the pregnancy went to term?  (If the petition were
>denied, that is...) Most women would go to back-alleys or resort 
>to coat hangers without even attempting to go through the 
>'system' first."
> 
>CD turns to the unknown third party [Craig?] to comment on his 
>remarks about not feeling responsible for the deaths of those 
>who break laws.  "I see.  She broke the law, so to Hell with 
>her.  That certainly shows a lot of confidence in the justice 
>of that particular law...
> 
>"And it exhibits a lot of the 'it could never happen to anyone 
>I know' syndrome."  He shakes his head slowly.  "You'd be 
>amazed..."
> 
>He sips his drink slowly, staring through the bottom of his 
>glass.  "It's scary," he says looking around the group.  "Some 
>people seem to be perfectly willing to let the government run 
>their lives."  He smiles ironically.  "Actually, they seem to 
>desire the government to make the rest of society conform to 
>their rules; with themselves comfortably in the ruling party."
> 
	"An interesting book on the subject is _The Handmaid's
Tale_  by, um, Margret Atwood."


The Artful Dodger P65331727@CCIT.Arizona.Edu|Razer@Hacks.Arizona.EDU
"Can you imagine us years from today, sharing a park bench quietly?
  How terribly strange to be seventy!"
		-Paul Simon & Art Garfunkle "Old Friends" _Bookends_