HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sav@nanette.sni.de (Dr.Savory)
Subject: Re: Whence "Steal Thunder"?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 06:09:20 GMT
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Info.Sys. AG, Paderborn, Germany

In <168269DE6.DSTEPHEN@cmsa.gmr.com> DSTEPHEN@cmsa.gmr.com writes:

>In article <sav.711190731@nanette>
>sav@nanette.sni.de (Dr.Savory) writes:
>>>What is the origin of the phrase "To steal one's thunder", e.g., to make
>>>Terry Carroll
>>>"Then they came upon The Thing."
>>I believ (Spelling courtesy D.Quayle =B-) that it was originally  a  german
>>expression  used  by musketeers relating to their front-loading blackpowder
>>rifles. "Thunder" was originally "Zunder", ie the fuse.  Thus stealing your

>I thought it was a reference to a Norse myth in which some geezer steals
>Thor's thunder hammer.

Yes. Of course you are right. In the myth (the prose Edda, actually) Loki
(Norse role-player for Satan) stole Mjollnir (Thors thunder hammer as you
call it). I was just trying to see how gullible the net is, by suggesting
an entirely plausible - but wrong - etymology   =B-)

Poch ma chun,
	     Stu
From: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au (Bunweasel)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Ex-presidents' titles and adverbs of lo
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:17:26 GMT
Reply-To: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au
Organization: Department of Computer Science, The University of Queensland


>People keep giving them to you, but you've decided that separable
>verbs (e.g. "to look at") don't count, which is patently bogus.
>
>    I'm going to the show.
>    What time is it at?

Why would you ever want to say this when you could
 just as easily say "When does it start?".

>without the "at", it means "Do you have the time?" rather than 
>"When's the show?"

Try :"Where are you going?". If you take away the last word it
doesn't mean the same thing. Astounding!

>But I suppose separable prepositions don't count now, either?  
>
>Get real.
Snap.

>--tom

-michaeln.
From: bwalsh@math.rutgers.edu (Bertram Walsh)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: More unique?  polique!
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:48:03 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

The 'y' in the 'poly-' prefix is etymologically a Greek upsilon, which
is pronounced as \"u by German-speakers and as their /u/ by French-
speakers, for two examples.  This sound even when short in duration is
pretty high and tense: English-speaking learners are told to approxi-
mate it by rounding the lips for /oo/ as in 'food' and vocalizing the
/ee/ sound as in 'see.'  The dictionaries seem to fix on the duration
of this unaccented vowel and tell you to use the short /i/ of 'hit';
Mark Slagle and others seem to focus on the vocalization and use the
pitch of /ee/ in 'see,' but do not give the sound the long duration
that it would have in 'see.'  In both cases one is basically attemp-
ting to fit a non-English sound into an English phoneme.

To me the choice of phoneme depends on the stress.  I'm with the 'ee'
users (but with short duration) when the 'y' is not stressed, but we
would all give the 'y' in 'poly-' the 'hit' sound in a proparoxytone
like 'polyphony' where the 'y' in 'poly-' takes the stress -- wouldn't
we?  And think of 'polysyllable,' where the 'y' is assigned the two
sounds inconsistently on the basis on stress.

Part of the problem is that English-speakers give the name 'long e' to
the vowel in 'see' and 'short e' to the vowel in 'bet' even though
they're different pitches, but don't have a word to describe a short-
duration version of the vowel in 'see,' which is the sound that much
of the world would call 'short i'.  Another part may be divergence
between British and North American (or at least US) usages: the Oxford
Dict. of Eng. Etym., which is reasonably careful about indicating
sounds, explicitly gives the 'hit' vowel to the 'y' in 'poly-' when it
is _not_ stressed.

Um?

Bertram Walsh  Mathematics Dep't  Rutgers University New Brunswick NJ 08903
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)
Subject: Re: dundancy
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 00:46:11 GMT

In article <14kh71INNf1a@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, karplus@cse.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus) writes:
> For redundancy, one of my favorites is a hotel called
> 	the El Alhambra Hotel
> which used to exist in Santa Cruz.

Not long ago I went into something called "The Boutique Shop" and
tried to buy a boutique.  They didn't know what it was, but offered
to check their catalogues.

Peter.
From: dand@buscard.fidonet.org (Dan Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: some questions
Date: 29 Jul 92 04:29:45 GMT
X-Maildoor: WaflineMail 1.00r


  => In a message to All on 07-27-92  04:43 Peter Moylan said:

 PM> Why is "will" not pronounced "woe"?

It isn't?

                                                   -- Dan --


... Ad astra per aspera (or, I'll never get off the ground)
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
From: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au (Bunweasel)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Might-as-well'nt I
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:28:30 GMT
Reply-To: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au
Organization: Department of Computer Science, The University of Queensland

Well, I may as well use it as well, may's-n't I as well.

-m.
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: right time
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:25:51 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster

In article <glen.712359608@cs.wisc.edu>, glen@slate.cs.wisc.edu (Glen Ecklund) writes:
> Also note that in the U.S. we always use a colon, e.g. "6:45", never "6.45".
> I understand that both are used Down Under.  Is that right?
> The period makes it look decimal to me.

Hmmmm..... Always? That looks like a sweeping generalisation to me.
FWIW, the following are all used in the UK:


6:45      6.45          6 45           6-45          0645  
-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   Remember what happened to the dinosaurs!
wilcox@maths.oxford.ac.uk  |    I did---and look what happened to me.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi)
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 04:41:52 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.234545.2230@convex.com> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
>Mandar Mukund Mirashi writes all kinds of overrighteous drivel unfounded
>in anything resembling sound linguistic theory.  Come on, guys, lay off.
>It's not fair to engage unarmed opponents in a battle of wits.
>

     Unarmed??  -  I think not!
Battle?? - Right now it's one person against many.....although a solitary
soul did chip in. Hey all you guys who follow the English English, I
could do with some help out here. (It's a pity that 90% of the readers
of this article would be from the US). 

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Subject: Re: Tree Structures
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
In-reply-to: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr's message of Wed, 29 Jul 1992 09:00:32 GMT
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 02:19:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.090032.9884@osf.org>, sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience) writes:

>> 	He was extremely polite to Lavinia, scrupulously, formally 
>> 	polite; and she had never seen him in anger but once in her 
>> 	life, when he lost his temper in a theological discussion with 
>> 	her late husband.

> I interpreted "she had never seen him in anger but once in her
> life" to mean she had only ever seen him once when he wasn't
> angry, which I don't think is the intention. 

How do you come to this odd interpretation?

> Am I alone in this or do others find it odd?

You are all alone on a bleak rock spinning through
the blackness of space.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Subject: Re: "In hospital" vs. "In the hospital"
Keywords: missing article
Reply-To: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 08:33:43 GMT

> One difference between British and American English that's
> always seemed curious to me is the missing (to my ear) 
> 
> He had an accident and now he's in hospital.
...
> American usage is "...in the hospital"

In Britain you can use
	He went to hospital
	He went to  a hospital
	He went to the hospital
	He went into hospital
	He went into a hopsital
	He went into the hospital

all with slightly different meanings. It seems that American had lost
this ability.

> I'll be on holiday for the next few weeks.
> 
> ... and "...on a holiday..." (though
> for that last, we would more likely say "on vacation"). 

The main reason for this may be the difference in the meaning of holiday
between English and American. 

	US		UK
	vacation	holiday
	holiday		bank holiday

Note that the American usage with vacation is the same as the English
usage of holiday.

Simon.

  Simon Patience
  Open Software Foundation			Phone: +33-76-63-48-72
  Research Institute				FAX:   +33-76-51-05-32
  2 Avenue De Vignate				Email: sp@gr.osf.org
  38610 Gieres, France				       uunet!gr.osf.org!sp
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Originator: tchrist@convex.convex.com
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: CONVEX Realtime Development, Colorado Springs, CO
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:56:45 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi)
comes more drivel:

(It is unbelievably offensive to have your native language berailed by 
a foreigner whose first language is something else.)

:Not if it was done by the native speakers of the language....the British.

Which ones?  Again, I refer you to the Welsh, whom perhaps you have 
never visited.  And while you're at it, go track down everyone born
speaking something other than RP and excoriate them, too.  And have
a nice day.

:       No....but you do it quite indirectly. It is time that the corruption of
:word spellings stops.

I believe you want "stop", something we native speakers of English
refer to as the subjunctive mode.  But perhaps you were never taught 
this in your schooling.

:    Let me repeat....you are NOT native speakers of the language....maybe
:some (not all) of your forefathers were....but their predecessors seem to
:have contorted it..

My, but this boy is hopelessly confused.  There's a reason we say "apple"
with an "ae" sound instead of an "ah" -- because that's how the English
spoke when they came here.  We still speak that language -- as native
speakers.

:      Nope.....but the original spellings of words derived from that
:language should not be changed.

Radix cupiditas malorum est to you, too, buddy.

--tom
-- 
"GUIs normally make it simple to accomplish simple actions and impossible
to accomplish complex actions."   --Doug Gwyn  (22/Jun/91 in comp.unix.wizards)

     Tom Christiansen           tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: Words that peeve me
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 12:26:53 GMT




"The El Nino" -- shouldn't it be just "El Nino"?  But both the daily paper
and Science News call it "-the- El Nino".  At least sometimes.  I just
found an article that refers to "the long arms of El Nino", but later in
the same article, the plural is given as "Some El Ninos".  I don't speak
Spanish, but can that be right? 

It's a weather system, by the way--a recurring warm wind, I think.  
  
Bonita Kale
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:53:25 EDT
From: Callec Dradja <GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
 <1992Jul30.044152.27117@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>
 <1992Jul30.060536.14722@midway.uchicago.edu>
 <1992Jul30.171303.9577@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>

In article <1992Jul30.171303.9577@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>,
mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi) says:
>
>In article <1992Jul30.060536.14722@midway.uchicago.edu>                       u
>goer@midway.uchicago.ed
>writes:
>>My theory is that it's a large-scale identification-with-the-captor
>>complex that released hostages and prisoners often feel for quite some
>>time after their experience ends.
>>
>>--
>>
>>   -Richard L. Goerwitz              goer%midway@uchicago.bitnet
>>   goer@midway.uchicago.edu          rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer
>
>Huh??   What are you? A psychologist?    :)
>

actually Mandar, this is exactly what I and probably quite a few other
people in this group were thinking. The syndrom that Richard was talking
about occurs when someone is kidnapped. That person will feel helpless
and begin bargining with the captor and finally try to emulate him
or her or in some other way be a good prisoner. India was treated
pretty badly by England but instaed of feeling anger, you have raised
them to the status of linguistic gods. This syndrom is well known
by most Americans in that it has been popularized in several films.
You show classic symptoms of captive mentality. Instead of being
angry at the British for labeling your culture as backward and primitive,
you have decided that indeed the British are superior or at least
better educated than you are.

     Chances are that someone as idealistic as you are will soon
become disillusioned with the 'superior' British culture and ultimately
decide that they are all just a bunch of bastards.

                                   Gregson Vaux

********************************************************************
* If all we do is live and die,           *  Gregson Vaux          *
* then tell me about the birds that fly.  *  Penn State University *
* If all we did was die and live,         *  Semitics & English    *
* would springtime be there to forgive?   *  GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu  *
********************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: brea9430@mach4.wlu.ca (breadner kenneth cecil joseph u)
Subject: Some Questions
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 16:45:36 GMT

Can anyone tell me why the phrase "just about", as in, "I'm just about
finshed" or "Are we there yet?"..."Just about"--can anyone explain why this
means "not quite"? It seems to me that "just about" is redundant.

Also, why is "do" pronounced with an /oo/ sound, while "don't" is pronounced
with a long 'o'?

Ken
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: plu@math.psu.edu (T. Andrew Simpson)
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Organization: Department of Mathematics, Pennsylvania State University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 03:28:53 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.183222.20963@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi) writes:

   I am just starting a new (perhaps been beaten to death already??) thread....
   ....I am just a newcomer to the US and what struck me immediately was the
   difference in the written and spoken language. In India, we follow the
   English English, since IMHO it is the original and  pure form of the
   language.

Well personally I never cared much for `IMHO'....

   [stuff deleted]
	 But I digress......all Americans reading this post...OPEN YOUR
   EYES...follow the true English and atone for your sins.  The beauty
   of the English language lies in the fact that words ARE NOT ALWAYS
   spelt the way they are pronounced.

American is still fairly beautiful by this standard....

   If you go around trimming words to suit your needs, you simply deface
   this language. What is the next Americanism? knife to nife? enough to 
   enuff? Bunch of idiots!
	 Just a passing thought.....written English is sometimes so remarkably
   different from its  spoken counterpart that "fish" can be spelt as
   "ghoti" (f = gh, as in enough; o = i, as in women; sh = ti, as in partial).
   This is what makes English so unique! So lay off Americans!
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Lots of American companies have been doing this lately.  Actually they've
been laying off employees of every nationality.... 

								Mandar.
   P.S. : The flamewar has started....   :)

Never cared much for smileys either.  But this is not a flame, as I can't
take your article seriously.  Or did someone else hijack your terminal?

- Todo

	   I apologise to all Englishmen for the mistakes committed (spelling
	   or grammatical) by me in this article.
   ---
   If you want to speak English, speak it like an Englishman.


Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)
Subject: Motor bus (was Re: data)
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:25:38 GMT

No, I'm not re-entering the "data" debate; it's just that the topic has
reminded me of something I wanted to request.

Could somebody please mail or post a copy of the "motor bus" poem?
(It's been posted here before, but I neglected to take a copy.)  The
version I have in mind has more than one verse, and I think the very
last word is "bo".

-- 
Peter Moylan                      eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:23:30 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Jul29.235833.6853@news.eng.convex.com> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
>From the keyboard of mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi):
>> Besides I usually never look at what country, race, etc. an individual
>> belongs to, when I make friends. The same would hold true if I ever found
>> myself in the position of hiring a new worker in the US. I would evaluate
>> him for his qualities, not for his nationality, race. etc.
>
>Notice MMM didn't name gender as something not to discrimate against, and
>has chosen to evaluate HIM for HIS qualities.  Women, don your veils!
>
>--tom
      
There are so many discriminating factors, that it would be impossible to
state all of them. That is why I chose to use "etc.". For your clarification
"etc." contains
1. Gender
2. Religion
3. Caste
4. Sub caste
5. native tongue spoken
6. economic background
7. State
8. County
9. City
10. Suburb
11. need I go on?
     
       I meant "his", in the general sense (as is used frequently) ,
and that includes "her" too. 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash)
Subject: Shrew/Taming of...
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:32:08 GMT


Newsgroups: ,alt.usage.english
Subject: Shrew, as in taming of...
Summary: 
Expires: 
Reply-To: joannee@fscott.UUCP (Joanne Eglash)
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Keywords: 

What is the origin of the word "shrew," as in "The Taming of..."?
I have checked some references, and they seem to vary. 

NOT a shrew,
Joanne

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Subject: Re: "French" spacing (was: How many spaces after a period?)
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
In-reply-to: Tom Christiansen's message of Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:45:25 GMT
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
	<1992Jul23.105011.1@wombat.newcastle.edu.au>
	<1992Jul24.204525.29247@news.eng.convex.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 00:13:06 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.204525.29247@news.eng.convex.com>, Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM> writes:

> From the keyboard of eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan):
> :One which has always amused me is "filet americain": American fillet.

> What's a fillet?  We only use it at the filling stations, where
> you can request that they fillet up. :-)

> Really, it's a filet around here, and pronounced like ballet and beret:
> with the accent on the *last syllable* instead of the barbaric first, 
> and without a final t, the way God and Gaul meant them to be.  :-)

In English, fillet is a valid spelling of the French filet.  Some
sources indicate a preference for it over the "variant" spelling
as filet.  If we're talking about a nice steak from the tenderloin
or a nice piece of trout, then the pronunciation is as you say.  

But if we're dealing with an engineer or an architect, then the
accent is on the first syllable and the word ends in a hard "t".
In that case we are talking about a rounding of an interior
corner with a specified radius for the purpose of stress relief.
In architectural applications it may or may not have this purpose
in a mechanical sense, but still serves the same general purpose 
in the sense of visual relief.  

In machined parts or welded connections, leaving a sharp corner
causes that area to be subjected to extreme, approaching infinite
as the corner becomes infinitely sharp, mechanical stresses.
This has a tendency to cause structures and machine parts to
fail in that location.  This is considered undesirable.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
From: cms@dragon.com (Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith))
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re:  Tree Structures
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:31:55 GMT
Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited


 Hi, I'm trying to diagram a sentence using tree-structures and I 
haven't quite gotten the hang of it yet.  Here's a sentence I'm 
working on:

	He was extremely polite to Lavinia, scrupulously, formally 
	polite; and she had never seen him in anger but once in her 
	life, when he lost his temper in a theological discussion with 
	her late husband.

That's a good one to diagram, isn't it?  Here's my feeble attempt:

                             S
                           /   \
                         NP     VP------------------------------
                        /       | \                            |
                      Pronoun   |  adj phrase              prep. phr.
                      /         |    \      \                /   \
                     He        / \    \      \             prep   N
                           tense Be    adj    adj           |     |
                            past        \        \          to Lavinia
                                        extremely polite

 Is "scrupulously, formally polite" another Sentence?  An "S" in the
diagram.  After the "and," of course, I start a new diagram.  Or do I 
put "scrupulously, formally polite" next to the original adjectival 
phrase "extremely polite"?  

Lost,

Cindy Smith
cms@dragon.com
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Subject: Re: Shrew, as in taming of...
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
In-reply-to: joannee@sco.COM's message of Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:18:21 GMT
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 00:18:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.191821.2643@sco.com>, joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash) writes:

> What is the origin of the word "shrew," as in "The Taming of..."?
> I have checked some references, and they seem to vary. 

I would presume that it is suggestive of the rather
vicious little beast of the same name.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english