HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgrimm@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Jeffrey Grimmett 9999)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: WOC Videotapes
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:30:26 GMT
Organization: NCR (Torrey Pines Development Center)
Disclaimer: This posting does not neccessarily reflect the opinions of NCR.

In article <35549@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes:

>>	Lurch/Mr. Hom is definately NOT played by Mick Fleetwood...
>>	they don't even look anything alike.
>
>True, but have we ever seen the two of them together ?  :-)
>
>andy finkel		andy@cbmvax.commodore.com

Well, as a matter of fact, you probably have.... :-)

-- 

*******************************************************************************
Jeff Grimmett [SuperBitMap BBS]        | fido!1:202/1401.0 [619-460-7290]
NCR -- Torrey Pines Development Center | Jeffrey.Grimmett@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com
==========    "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."   =============
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: cyclone@netcom.com (Bill Sheppard)
Subject: Re: CDTV vs CD-I, Crap CD-I Golf on Show
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 23:56:58 GMT

Well, it should be interesting - at least here in the Bay Area, Philips has
cranked up the marketing machine big time.  Radio ads, TV ads, large print
ads, my housemate even received a mailing from Philips inviting him to see
CD-I at a local retailer and get $100 in free titles.  That, combined with the
street price of $599 and the rapidly increasing popularity of Photo CD, I
think there may be a reasonable number of units sold for Christmas.  Panasonic
is supposed to have there player out by Christmas, too.

Bill
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: A4000, A Marketable Machine?
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:57:46 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.160018.13347@newshost.unh.edu> ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) writes:
>>re article by Jay Phillips:  But does that "clone of the month" also do
>>fast animation at 1024 X 768 X 8 bit, without adding a graphics accelerator
>>chip?! 
>>I agree, the static graphics capabilities of the 4000 are
>>substandard for 1992 personal computers.  However, for dynamic images, the
>>machine has it over the
>>IBM PC-derived machine architectures, and Macs.
>
>	I don't know about that.  Gateway 2000 has a 66/486 vesa local bus
>  system running an ATI Ultra Pro graphics card.  I bet thats pretty fast.

It certainly should be given the hardware, but most folks will probably
end up using it for mundane things like spreadsheets, word processing,
and other such boring tasks that most PCs end up performing.  It might
even be fast enough to make Windows bearable, but it would need to be
at least twice as fast as the 50MHz DX2 with Tseng 4000 board that I'm
using.  

I'll be buying an A4000 in the first half of November and the company
that I work for is buying a couple of new machines, either the pseudo 66MHz
DX2s or 50MHz DXs, most likely with one of the Local Bus non-standards.
I'll be glad to run them side by side and compare them to the A4000 in
both real-world tests like redraws, scrolling, etc., and also testing
similar code on both machines.

Of course, the Clone Advocates will say "but the Clone with SuperDuperVGA
does 1024x768 in 256 colors!" and I'll say "yeah, but how well does it
output to a VCR?".  :-)

>  Its cheaper than the A4000 also, along with having more ram and a much
>  larger HD.

When are you going to wake up and realize that the Amiga line will never
be as cheap as the Clones?  Sheesh, the 040 itself costs nearly as much
as the 486 motherboard!  Do you really think that C= can sell machines
to a significantly smaller segment of the market for less than the hordes
of Clone builders.  Most are not making Clones, they are simply slapping
them together from the imported parts into zillions of  different 
configurations.  Hell, I'm a CS major and have no problem doing that.  :-)

Given the mentality of the average Clone buyer, I'm not so sure that C=
needs that sort of customer.  The software market is tough enough without
worrying about the rampant pirating going on in Clone-land.  I'd bet
that there are more pirated copies of some programs out there than there
are Amigas in the whole world.  Pathetic.

>							G.Greene

Skip Sauls
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu


Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gerrymon@eng.umd.edu (Gerry Mon)
Subject: Atari Falcon030
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 14:33:24 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy

Well, I finally got a chance to play around to with a real Falcon 030 at
my local dealer.  These were developer units and they had a bunch of
them for the upcoming WAACE Atarifest show.

Anyway, I peeked at some of the preliminary developer documentation
and according to them, the memory cycle time of the Falcon is four 16
Mhz machine cycles.  I guess that works out to 250 nsec.  Is that good
for a 16 Mhz 68030?  In addition, the BLiTTER and DMA takes five 16
Mhz cycles.

The reason I'm posting this to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy is because of
the pressence of Commodore Engineers (Dave Haynie and George Robbins
etc.) who could intelligently say whether the Falcon 030 seems to have
a decent memory system or whether it is too held back by the single
bus architecture.

Overall, I was impressed with the Falcon 030.  They were showing lots
of Targa pictures in both 256 color mode and 16-bit True Color mode
and had lots of sound demos.  The new Desktop (multicolor icons and 3d
effects) looked gorgeous.  What surprised me was that the Falcon 030
in 640x480 256 color mode felt as fast or faster than the TT030 in its
640x480 16 color mode!

--Gerry
From: 01ksdavis@bsu-ucs.uucp (Rebel without a clue.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multitasking and games (Was: Re: Struggling s
Date: 10 Oct 92 17:35:48 GMT

In article <u894776.718694451@bruny>, u894776@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (James McCoull) writes:
> doiron@starpt.UUCP (Glenn Doiron) writes:
> 
>>> multitasking operating system for good games - makes it easier to run
>>> decent enemy routines and all that.
> 
>>No, it doesn't.  If you have access to a timer interrupt, you can chuck the
> 
> Yes it does.  Anyone can throw the OS out.  As the amiga heads post AGA,
> 040, 060 etc... those who don't kill the OS are the winners.  Having said
> that I still feel the need to poke my private copper lists, and hit the
> blitter and sprite registers directly...
-- 

	Don't forget the most important thing about multi-tasking and games. 
How many of my fellow Amiga gamers out there have had 2 games going at once?  I
think my record was four games of something or other.
 ______________________________________________________________________________
|Kyle S. Davis				                                       |
|2000HD	1MbRAM//                                Hot VWs               1973     |
|1084s       //  Only Amiga makes it possible,    \/   Take 2 home-   311      |
|Oki 20   \\//   All others make it plausible.   \/\/  They're small.          |
|
|______________________________________________________________________________|
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.graphics,comp.sys.amiga.hardware,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.tech,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: A-MaxII+ ?
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:17:00 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <Per_Salmi.0dpz@augs.se> Per_Salmi@augs.se (Per Salmi) writes:

>At that time the Quadras had serious problem with running System 7 OS 
>but it worked great on an A3000 with 040 accelerator and even faster 
>than the Quadras! The salesman was very proud when telling me these 
>thing as he liked the thought of Quadras not being able to run it own OS. :-)

Very interesting, considering that the first Quadras *shipped* with
System 7.  Oh, well, you know the difference between a computer 
salesman and a used-car dealer.

The used-car dealer knows that he's lying.



 
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:26805 comp.sys.amiga.graphics:6772
From: jmpor@dynam.adsp.sub.org (Jean-Marc Porchet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.graphics
Subject: Re: Visiona 24-bit Graphics Board
Date: 14 Oct 92 17:43:00 GMT
Reply-To: cbmehq!cbmswi!dynam!jmpor@cbmvax.commodore.com
Organization: Merging Technologies
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00 beta rel2

In article <1992Oct10.172954.2077@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA>, Tim Ciceran writes:

> Looks like the GVP EGS/110 and DMI Vivid 24 has some competition.

Well, the EGS/110 and the VISIONA has been developed by the same guy,
Hendrik Horak. Since the EGS/110 is it's latest product, it's much more
quicker (32  bits access insteed of 16).

For example, I have seen a demonstration of 15 animations in 24 bits
each playing in a window (quicktime size) at 25 fps.



--

PS : forgive my bad English, I'm still trying to learn it
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Marc "JUMP" Porchet                             Phone : (41) 22-754-1733

EMAIL :   ...{uunet,rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!cbmswi!dynam!jmpor
	       or try   mcsun!cbmswi!dynam!jmpor		 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Simple things should be simple & complex things should be possible' Alan Kay
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene)
Subject: Re: Software Piracy
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 04:13:25 GMT

>>       Like there isn't any rampant pirating in Amiga-land.  Pathetic.
>
>Should we bring up that survey again, the one where they checked up on
>IBM, Mac, and Amiga disks and found that 9 out of 10 IBM disks were pirated,
>6 out of 10 Mac disks were and only 2 out of 10 Amiga disks...?
>
>Piracy is the rule, not the exception, in the PClone community. I've seen it
>and I know whereof I speak.

	I must of missed that survey.  Who did it?  9 out 10 IBM disks 
   are pirated, thats incredible.  I guess I'm out of touch with reality
   as I BUY all my software.  Can you imagine, IBM has sold around 1.7
   million copies of OS2 2.0, since that represents the 1 out of 10 copies
   that are legit, that means there could be over 15 million illegal copies
   of OS2 2.0 out there.  With that kind of base, where the heck are all 
   the OS2 native applications. :)

							G.Greene

>
>                  "Two hundredth verse, same as the first!"
>[Your blood pressure just went up.]        Mark Sachs IS: mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu
>DISCLAIMER: If PSU knew I had opinions they'd probably try to charge me for it.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu)
Subject: Re: REAL FALCON 030 SPECS
Organization: SAR Systems Development & Processing, JPL
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 07:38:15 GMT

In article <67287@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>Damn. I suspected my Numerical Analysis classes were a form of torture, but
>until you confirmed it, I wasn't really sure.

Heh... I sure hated it.
>
>>In a real-world application
>
>There's really no such thing.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I think most application areas will be dealing with a
pretty small dynamic range, though. Census data may all be in units of thousands
or millions, for example, but there's still only a few digits worth of significant
data, the rest is just place-holder that can be factored in or out at a separate
time. I guess my old Forth fanaticism is showing thru here...
>
>>Personally I think hardware floating point support is just a crutch for folks
>>who are too lazy to write an intelligent solution to their problem.
>
>Yes. Damn that 68881 & 2.

Not quite. I think the 881 and 882 are fine things. But every now and then I
get to thinking - why didn't they apply all that cool pipelining architecture
to getting *integer* throughput? I guess the 68040 is the answer to that
question, though. The point being, floating point data is still just a bunch
of bits, internally broken down and manipulated with integer operations. I
personally would have wanted access to the raw integer performance. (Instead,
or in addition.)
-- 
  -- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA

California, land of dreams. For many, moving out to CA is their first step
toward fulfilling their dreams. For most of them, it's also their last.
From: jayson@tbag.tscs.com (Jayson Phillips)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: A4000 Flaws?
Date: 11 Oct 92 05:41:21 EST
Organization: Tampa Bay Amiga Group

 
>on 23 Sep 1992 17:56:23 GMT dleland@dante.nmsu.edu (LELAND) writes:
>[stuff delted]
>>Skip, the people who are complaining are potential customers, not brats.
>>It's up to Commodore to make a desirable machine.  Their customers are
>>not required to heap praise on one that has a perceived flaw.
>>
>>kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
>
>But  don't  you  see?   I  get the impression that no matter what Commodore
>does,  no  matter how hard they try to do something, these people are going
>to bitch and complain anyway.  
 
The  question  is  not how "hard did they try" but "what did they produce".
You  don't  buy  a car based on how hard they tried do you?  No.  You buy a
product (hopefuly) based on how good that product actually is at the time.
 
>What the hell flaw does the A4000 have?
 
Compared to the Falcon at 1/3 the cost:
    - no SCSI
    - no DSP
    - no 16-bit sound
    - no MIDI
    - no network port
 
Compared to the A3000 at 1/2 the cost:
    - no SCSI
    - no de-interlacer
 
In general:
    - a new graphic standard with no smooth upgrade for current Amiga owners
    - too little too late
 
>[stuff deleted]
 
I  owned  an A1000 for five years and have owned an A3000 for 1.5 years.  I
love  Amigas.   But  the  A4000 is not that much of an upgrade for an A3000
owner.   Certainly not worth putting out yet another $3200.  If you want to
upgrade from an A500 or plan to buy your first Amiga than it's probably the
way to go.  Actually, IMHO, an A3000 for $1500 is a good way to go too.
 
 Jay Phillips * Tampa FL
 Amiga 3000 25Mhz/105HD/10MB
 USENET: tbag!jayson@tscs.com

--- Via UCI v1.02 (C-Net Amiga)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: rccompono@happy.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Its a sad sad day...
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 8 Oct 92 13:58:06 MDT

In article <1992Oct6.203345.10008@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
> Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (Hans Bergengren) writes:
>>
>>Does Microsoft think that a powerful CPU is an excuse for writing
>>slow and bulky code?
>>
> 
> Does Hans think that being in an advocacy newsgroup is an excuse for posting
> statements which have absolutely no basis in fact?
> 
>>
>>Is it efficient to have to own at least a 386DX-33 with
>>gobs of RAM just to do simple stuff at a decent speed? Why is Windoze NT so
>>bl**dy big?
>>
> 
> Is it efficient to have to get a college education just to post the same 
> nonsense that has been relayed here countless times already?
> 
> Last time I checked, my 386sx-16 ran Windows just fine.

That's funny, since my 486sx-20 runs (crawls, rather) when I'm using Windows.
Which is as rarely as possible.  I'll take the speed of my A3000-16 running
Workbench anytime, thanks.

> 
>>
>>   /  /
>>  /--/
>> /  /B - No Mr. Nice-Guy Anymore...
>>
> 
> --
> +-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
> | Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
> | Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
> |    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
> +-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
> |           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
> |                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: derek@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Dariusz Bolski)
Subject: Re: Its a sad sad day...
Organization: OSU Advanced Computing Center for the Arts and Design
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 22:08:30 GMT

In article <OA92-901-306p1_59F96F10@piraya.bad.se> Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (Hans Bergengren) writes:

> SD> Windows is/will be so big for some of the same reasons OS/2 2.0 and UNIX
> SD> can be so big - there is a shitload that comes with it.
>
>How many users actually NEEDS 60 megs of Windows NT? OK, so you don't need a
>full installation, but what does all those megs contain?

Multiple instances of words "Oh NT, You're so wonderful" encoded and anticompressed
and slipped into the mind of the user at the subliminal level when he waits for
the machine to react to his mouse :-)

>  InterNET/BadNET: Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (92:901/603.1)

Dariusz Bolski B-)

-- 
Dariusz Bolski     Ohio Supercomputer Center, IBM POWER Visualization System
Systems Programmer Ohio State University , Columbus U.S.
                   The Advanced Computing Center For The Arts And Design
e-mail: derek@cgrg.ohio-state.edu  derek@osc.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.graphics,comp.sys.amiga.hardware,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: wwarner@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Art Warner)
Subject: Re: A-MaxII+ ?
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 03:46:20 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.231915.22271@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
>You should keep your mouth shut when you are clueless.  7.1 is out in beta
>only.  It is due for release in 1 week.  It is NOT being shipped with
>Quadras currently (7.0.1 is).

So, who was it that failed to mention this little "patch" that had to be
released for their "bug-free" machine?  Who's clueless?
I purposely used the words "think it is being shipped" only because
my brother at Apple had been using it (non-beta 7.1) for so long and
told me that Apple was already shipping them with the new Quadras.

As for keeping my mouth shut....I never move my lips while at the keyboard. ;)

>>wwarner@en.ecn.purdue.edu            IBM, Apple, Sun, & Next make it expensive!

>Yes, but I have some faith that at least 3 of them will still be a force in 
>a few years.  I cannot say this for Amiga.
Speak for your own desktop.  I can safely say that an Amiga will dorn my
desktop for many...many....years to come!
I'd take the first Amiga (A1000) over the first IBM or Mac *ANYDAY*!!!!
At least it would be in color, multitask (pre-emptive, too), and play
some GREAT games.  Can either of the first IBMs or Macs do that?
HELL, can *ANY* of their most recent ones do that?????  Who's clueless?

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William "Art" Warner (317-497-1946)      //\
ex Amiga Student On-Campus Consultant  \X/--\miga makes it happen!
wwarner@en.ecn.purdue.edu             IBM, Apple, Sun, & Next make it expensive!
From: chrisg@cbmvax.commodore.com (Chris Green)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  Struggling computer science student needs a free A4000.
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:38:23 GMT
Reply-To: chrisg@cbmvax.commodore.com (Chris Green)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

>	It looks like the A4000 has 256 color productivity mode at 640 x
>	480 that does not flicker.  However the 'standard' Amiga mode
>	640 x 400, 16 color flickers just like a A500/A2000.  

	If you turn on a setting in prefernces, most applications which
open normal 640x400 lace screens will automagically end up in 640x400
non-flickering screens.


>	I am disapointed that the hires|lace mode flickers but I like 
>	the productivity enhancements.  Are the 3.0 includes to access
>	the new modes available to non developers? Commodore?

	The "new" 640x480 mode is nothing new. It's just the ECS productivity
mode from 2.0, except that it has none of the drawbacks (limited colors,
slow speed) that ECS made it have. And of course if has a max depth of 8
instead of 2. All that is required is 2.0 documentation and includes.


-- 
*-------------------------------------------*---------------------------*
|Chris Green - Graphics Software Engineer   - chrisg@commodore.COM      f
|                  Commodore-Amiga          - uunet!cbmvax!chrisg       n
|My opinions are my own, and do not         - icantforgettheimpression  o
|necessarily represent those of my employer.- youmadeyouleftaholeinthe  r
|"A screaming comes across the sky..."      - backofmyhead              d
*-------------------------------------------*---------------------------*
From: kjetilja@stud.cs.uit.no (Kjetil Jacobsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: ##### A1200 RELEASED NOVEMBER ##########
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:44:45 GMT
Organization: University of Tromsoe

In article <1992Oct16.065645.4885@desire.wright.edu>, fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:
>In article <1992Oct15.213550.17686@ugle.unit.no>, eyvind@Lise.Unit.NO (Eyvind Bernhardsen) writes:
>> barryb@castle.ed.ac.uk (Barry A T Brown) writes:
>> 
>>> appearing BUT.... Commodore are releasing the A1200 in November which has almost
>>> the same technical spec    ie. AA chip set, High Density drives etc....
>> 
>> Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou...  There *IS* a God!
>> 
>> Now what does this wonder look like? :)
>> 
>
>	I bet it will look suspiciously like the A4000.  Did you ever notice
>	the A4000 has little removable-looking name plate that could have
>	1200/020 on it rather easily :)
>
>> (Actually, can anyone verify this - I don't mean to be cynical, but someone else 
>> said that C= had dropped the A1200...)
>> 
>> -Eyvind
>> 
>> -- 
>>      //|           I want AGA!  NOW! | DISCLAIMER: I don't HAVE opinions.
>>     // |                             | I just repeat what everyone else says!
>> \\ //--|miga: There can be only one. |
>>  \X/   |         eyvind@lise.unit.no | Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!  Ackpth!
>Fred Heitkamp,  ** Not an organization.  My opinions only **
>
Hmmm..I've read another article claiming that the A1200 would be released with
a EC020. Isn't this a little slow considering the 030 and DSP of the Falcon ?
I believe (please correct) AGA graphics require more processing time than the
(now) standard colormodes, and should therefore be delivered with reasonable
computation power, i.e the 030. In two years the 020 will be seriously dated,
and with new (and cheaper) PC-clowns arriving, Commodore need something faster
than a 020 to meet the mid-nineties.

- Kjetil.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: easton@zds-oem.zds.com (Jeff Easton)
Subject: Re: A4000 is kinda UGLY !!!
Organization: Zenith Data Systems, OEM Systems Engineering
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1992 20:57:12 GMT
Keywords: Ugly

In article <mac1.718648841@Ra.MsState.Edu> mac1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Mubashir Cheema) writes:
>
> Got my copy of Amiga World today. Well I have to admit this, the A4000
> thats on the cover looks like no computer I have ever seen. Its the ugliest
> of them all. Hell it even has a keyboard lock right in the middle of it, yuck 
> Hell its a big SQUARE BOX, no innovative design that we Amigans are used to.
> How many people share my disappointment ?

  Hey! I take offense at that remark.  It looks like a clone of our Z433/DX,
minus the keylock of course.

  And yes, I think its a step down from the design of the A3000 box, arguably
one of the best looking boxes I've seen in a long while.

>Mubashir.

-- 
  ___  ___    Jeff Easton             easton@zds-oem.zds.com
 (__  (__     Zenith Data Systems     j.easton@mi04.zds.com
 ___) ___)    Saint Joseph, Mich.     easton@andrews.edu
Monte Carlo   Z-LS/20 - Choice of a quite generation