Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT technologically advanced?
From: cscks@luxury.latrobe.edu.au (Kamal Shaker.)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 09:40:27 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
: pjdm@chmeee.enet.dec.com (Peter Mayne) writes:
: : 
: : In article <1992Dec9.161847.20909@spang.Camosun.BC.CA>, dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
: :  
{Stuff deleted]
: : >: acceptable; I want to know what features of VMS are perceived as "70s"ish.)
: : >
: : >I meant precisely that it *was* built in the 1970s. The insult was
: : >that the user interface was out of date even then, hence the 1960s
: : >part. Unix is also a 1970s OS (just) but with an interface that did,
: : >at least, show the influence of the current state of the art - i.e.
: : >Multics.
: : 
: : If you don't like the user interface (DCL), you're free to write your own.
: : (Now where have I heard that before?)
: 
: Well, I'm free to write my own OS or GUI too - is that an acceptable
: response? I think not.
Well there are now mutliple interfaces, posix ( csh tcsh etc ) aswell
as DCL...

: : 
: : >You wanna know why the VMS interface is so poor? 2 examples: firstly
: : >the interface to the filestore
: : >	[node]::[device]:[[dir1.dir2....dirn]]filename
: : >this is really bad, as it uses 3 (arguably four) different delimiters
: : >in a path. Not only that but the 'file' temp.dir is a directory
: : >*because* its extension is dir, and you have to treat it differnently
: : >depending on context. You can creat different versions of a directory
: : >but there is no simple way to refer to previous versions. And, if you
: : >accidentally create a file with a .dir extension VMS will treat it as
: : >a directory. Some of my students have got into such holes with this
: : >that the systems people have had to dig them out.
: : 
: : The interface to the filestore is the syntax of the filing system,
: : Files-11, not VMS. I personally prefer it to the UNIX (BSD?) file system
: : because I can tell what things are.
: 
: I don't care what you call the filing system, as far as I as a user am
: concerned it is the interface to VMS and it stinks.
Well you may think it stinks but it happens to be one of the most
powerful around.
: 
: : 
: : Have you tried creating a file called 'not/a/dir' on the UNIX file system? And
: : then accessing it?
: : 
: : I just wrote a C program in a file called NOT.DIR, then compiled it and
: : renamed NOT.OBJ to NOT.DIR, then linked that and renamed NOT.EXE to NOT.DIR,
: : then ran NOT.DIR. Works fine.
: 
: Is this relevant?
: : 
: : I couldn't create two versions of a directory. I could rename version 1 to
: : version 2, but the filesystem doesn't like it, so I just renamed it back. (No
: : I don't have system privileges.)
: 
: Well you can't do it using CR /DIR, but it *is* possible, I have seen
: it on my students' accounts.
You just edit the directory and save it.... so.. it's a stupid think to
do in the first place....
: 
: : Including the node as a part of the file specification is indescribably
: : convenient. People just don't believe that I can use the VMS command
: : line to inspect, edit, compile, whatever, a file that exists on a UNIX,
: : DOS, whatever, without having to ftp or rcp or some other horrid thing,
: : even after I show them.
: 
: Node yes, the rest - horrible.
Well you can also define logicals instead so you only have to do a
cd utils: or whatever.... to go to any directory on any disk...

: 
: : >That's one. The other is perhaps trivial, but if I compile and link
: : >prog1.mod, say, and get prog1.exe in order to execute it I *have* to
: : >type
: : >	run prog1
: : 
: : I wrote a program called ld. I ran it by typing ld, and it said
: : "ld: Usage: ld [options] file [...]".
: : 
: : Then I remembered that csh remembers the files in your path, and I have to
: : tell it otherwise. So I typed rehash, then ld. It did the same thing.
: : 
: : Then I realised that /bin is earlier in my path than ., so I moved the file
: : to a directory earlier in my path. It did the same thing.
: : 
: : Then I remembered that I have to type rehash again. At last.
: 
: I'm sorry but what do shortcomings of the c shell have to do with
: shortcomings of VMS?
: 
: : 
: : >unless I create a define in my login.com (or otherwise) which stands
: : >for that string. This is really dreadful.
: : 
: : If I want to have the -l flag by default for ls, I *have* to type ls -l
: : unless I create an alias in my .login (or otherwise) which stands for
: : that string. This is really dreadful.
: 
: But not relevant.
It is.... it's basically the same thing... but you can do both outside...

: : 
: : >I could go on, but there is
: : >no point. The internals of VMS may be absolutely brilliant, but the
: : >externals suck.
: : 
: : I could go on too. For instance, DCL might not have file name
: : completion, but I can't abbreviate commands in sh/csh/ksh/tcsh. VMS
: : (and DCL) is not better than other operating systems in these respects,
: : nor are other operating systems better than VMS, not matter when they
: : were written.  They're just different.
: 
: Ah, so if I claim that DOS is no worse than VMS you'll agree?
: 
So dos can do this...
COPY <CR>
_FROM: a.a<CR>
_TO: utils:<CR>
helps when you can't remember what order the paramaters come in.
Also try typing SP instead on SPAWN etc.....

: : >As one of my students said - Unix comes with the vi editor in order to
: : >demonstrate that there *is* something worse than EDT.
: : 
: : Personal opinion. Mine is different.
: 
Well VMS goes with a few editors.... EDT EVE and some others I think..
never used them EDT enough for me...

: Yes, let's take a vote on it.....

I also love the VMS error message handling... just ahead of OS/2....
( Just to inject some OS/2 into this post.... )

--
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Kamal Shaker,        | cscks@luxury.latrobe.edu.au or shaker@latcs1.lat.oz.au
Student Vax Cluster, | %SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA, Alcohol quota exceeded,
La Trobe Uni,        | stomach dumped.
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There's enough water on earth to drown the human population 87.6 million times
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy