HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: deb5@ellis.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff)
Subject: Re: Proto-languages: what are the rules?
Reply-To: deb5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 00:51:44 GMT

In article <1k3wmj#3X2tH88WtzQs7tp3yw6svQZq=cowan@snark.thyrsus.com> cowan@snark.thyrsus.com (John Cowan) writes:
 
>Something that's always puzzled me:  how do historical linguists decide
>what form should be the standard reconstructed form?  Consider the following
>...case:
>
>[I]n the reconstruction of Proto-Romance, we find that Sard has /k/ where
>other Romance languages have /s/ in a large number of words.  In this case,
>the reconstruction is /k/, and the postulation is that a sound-change
>affected >all< the Romance languages except Sard.  Apparent methodological
>contradiction.

	As a linguistics undergrad at the University of Chicago, I learned 
that the principle balancing out "majority rules" is "phonetic plausibility."  
Applying this to the Romance example, we notice that although there are 
several documented cases of the change /k/ -> /s/,/sh/ (e.g. the division
of Proto-Indo-European into `centum' and s'atem languages, based on whether
inherited */k/ remains /k/ (as in Italic) or palatalises to /sh/ (as in
Slavic)), there is no (to my knowledge) example of a regular change in the
reverse direction, i.e. /s/ becoming /k/.  Thus, we decide on a /k/ to /s/ 
change as being the only plausible explanation.  So think of "plausiblity" 
as being a more general "majority rules" principle which serves to limit the
first one.
	Now, the downside:  if this argument seems circular, it's because
(as faras this example goes), it is.  Many of our guidelines for phonetic 
plausiblity were developed through work on the Indo-European languages, in 
large part because it afforded written sources old enough for us to check our 
hypotheses (and, of course, Europeans were the first to use it extensively).
However, if certain phonetic changes common to I-E turn out to be _specific_
to it, we may become guilty of overgeneralisation in our attempts to see them 
at work in other language families.
	After all, like most sciences, historical reconstruction is still an 
inexact one (which is why them *'s come in so darn handy : >).




-- 
	Daniel "Da" von Brighoff (deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)  /\
	951 E. 54th Place				    /__\
	Chicago, IL  60637				   /____\
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Works on WHO,WHEN,WHAT,WHERE...
Date: 8 Jan 93 13:38:44 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1993Jan5.212840.21214@ils.nwu.edu> pautler@ils.nwu.edu (David Pautler) writes:
>BTW, your choice of 'slots' seems pretty arbitrary to me -- maintaining
>a distinction between WHO's and WHAT's at this level seems unimportant
>compared to the loss of information due to collapsing all actors, recipients,
>patients, etc. to WHO's and all causes, intentions, etc. to WHY's.

I think in the classical interpretation of this sequence of WHs the
WHO is just the subject (the agent) and the WHAT is the predicate
(including the patient, recipient and what have you).

Yes, the WHY covers all causes, reasons, motives and the like, and one
wonders why there is no WHENCE and no WHITHER.

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finn...
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 12:09:47 GMT
X-Posted-From: mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1993Jan3.164904.6398@desire.wright.edu> nyoung@desire.wright.edu writes:
>Proto-Altaic, I find the Bulgarian/Altaic connection at
>least interesting.
>Of course, reading through this book makes me, as my
>Tamil friend says, "scratch at my brains" to follow the
>logic. Maybe Japanese, Bulgarian and some other languages
>are related to Altaic. Maybe not. As reading goes, the book
>comes close to being as mind-boggling as a trigonometry text.
>But I'm sure that my mentioning it will start a flame war
>about Bulgarian. (I wouldn't know, personally. I don't have
>the foggiest notion about Bulgarian.)
>
>Nils
>

Old Bulgarian and Bulgarian are not related as far as I know.  The
Bulgar Horde was an Altaic tribe that came, settled in the lands we now
call Bulgaria, married and mixed with the local Slav population and
accepted Orthodox Christianity and their language.  

I wasn't aware that old Bulgarian references existed.  How much of the
fragments of the language survived?

regards,
Deniz Akkus deniz@ctr.columbia.edu 
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: mcovingt@aisun3.ai.uga.edu (Michael Covington)
Subject: Re: Classical Latin and Vulgate (was Re: Morphological ...)
Organization: AI Programs, University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 02:44:40 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.015941.23724@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.151334.6482@desire.wright.edu>, w0318@desire writes:
>
>>Also, for you Latin buffs, what are the general differences between Classical
>>Latin (of Cicero, say) and the Vulgate?
>
>Subject matter.

Also, different ways of introducing subordinate clauses.  Less use
of _cum_, more use of _ut_ and _quod_ (if memory serves me right).


-- 
:-  Michael A. Covington     internet mcovingt@uga.cc.uga.edu :    *****
:-  Artificial Intelligence Programs       phone 706 542-0358 :  *********
:-  The University of Georgia                fax 706 542-0349 :   *  *  *
:-  Athens, Georgia 30602-7415 U.S.A.     amateur radio N4TMI :  ** *** **
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Locus of change (was Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finn..).
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 01:56:43 GMT

In article <1ikohsINN7rd@pith.uoregon.edu>, delancey@darkwing (Scott C DeLancey) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.002127.20670@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson) writes:

>>But they don't.  Exactly why they do change is an area of research.  Clearly,
>>the primary mechanism of change is the transmission problem:  Children
>>learning a language from their elders--not simply audlts but anyone more
>>advanced in the language than they--do not learn to reproduce perfectly the
>>learning of others.
>
>How "clear" is this, really?  It's an old idea (there's a discussion of it in
>Jespersen's _Philosophy of Grammar_ which is more intelligent than most
>current references to it) but when has it ever been demonstrated as an actual
>mechanism of language change?  We know of two *demonstrated* sources of
>change--non-native speakers and sociolinguistically motivated innovations of
>the kind studied by Labov.  The first involve adults, the second generally
>adolescents.  For "imperfect learning" to be a factor it would have to be a
>normal thing for child language habits to be carried on into adulthood--what
>evidence is there for this?

Although I usually describe myself as an Indo-Europeanist, emphasizing my
interest (& training) in historical and comparative studies, just as other
historical linguists do, I also have a background in synchronic linguistics.

In particular, I work as much as possible in the framework of natural phonology
as defined by Stampe.  In this framework, acquisition of language is viewed as
a series of suppressions of processes and additions of rules by language
learners, who need not be infants.

Sociolinguistic forces at work among adolescents are a source of change, but
each individual maintains a different idiolect, with idiosyncratic phonology.
New rules added by (near) adult speakers may lead to restructuring of the set
of suppressions among younger learners, so that the transmission of language
itself contributes to change.

It is not so much a matter of "child language habits" as of the nature of the
language mechanism in the human mind, under this view.

The mechanisms of morphological and syntactic change are much better under-
stood:  Given changes in phonology, adjustments at these levels may have to be
made, and again the transmission problem intervenes.

It was the utility of the process view of phonology for historical work that
convinced me of the utility of the process view of phonology.  I'm afraid that
I have always viewed synchronic studies that way.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: zhang@climat.geology.yale.edu
Subject: HAPPY NEW YEAR in 100 Languages...
Organization: Yale University GFD Computing
Date: 8 Jan 93 03:47:58 EDT

	Speak HAPPY NEW YEAR in 100 languages? Yes. Some one started this
thread in SOC.PENPALS, and along which I have collected 33 languages up
to now. But it is still far from 100. I assume the languages people 
in this group know are more diverse, and there are more linguists and
polyglots here who can contribute toward this goal. 

	Please *FOLLOWUP* this post to add your language(s) to this list.
I will compile them in alphabatical order and post them here at the end,
and I also would like to send a copy to anyone upon his/her request. 
This is a form of cultural exchange, and it is interesting both
culturally and linguistically. It is not too late to say HAPPY NEW YEAR.
(Taiping Zhang) 

-------------------Now we have 33 languages-------------------
	
Afrikaans:   Voorspoedige nuwe jaar !         (Happy new Year)
Arabic:      Sanah mubarakah!                 (Happy New Year)
Balfang:     Halfapilfy Nelfew Yelfear !      (Happy New Year)
Bengali :    Subho Nabobarsha !               (Happy new Year)
Chinese:     Xinnian Kuaile !                 (Happy new Year) 
Czech:       S~t~astny' novy' rok!            (Happy New Year)
Dutch:       Gelukkig Nieuwjaar               (Happy new Year)
English:     Happy New Year !	              (Happy new Year)
Esperanto:   Felican Novan Jaron !            (Happy new Year)
Filipino:    Manigong Bagong Taon!            (Happy New Year)
Finnish:     Hauskaa Uutta Vuotta !           (Happy New Year)
French:      Bonne Heureuse Annee !           (Happy New Year)
German       Froehliches Neues Jahr !         (Happy New Year)
Gujrati:     Naveen saal aasheervaad !        (Happy new Year) 
Hindi:       Naya saal mubarak !              (Happy new Year) 
Japanese:    Shiawa-seh na Shin'nen !         (Happy New Year) 
Korean:      Sae-Hae Bok-Ma-ni But-Eu-Se-Yo ! (Happy new Year)
Malayalam:   Subhavatsaraasamsakal !          (Happy new Year)
Navajo:      Hozhoogo Neeninaadoohah!         (Happy New Year)
Norwegian:   Godt nyttaar !                   (Happy New Year)
Punjabi:     Naye Sal di Mubarakan !          (Happy New Year)
Persian:     Saleh no mo-raab-ak !            (Happy new Year)
Pig Latin:   Appy-hay Ew-nay Ear-yay!!        (Happy new Year)
Portuguese:  Feliz Ano Novo!                  (Happy New Year)
Slovak:      S~t~astlivy' novy' rok!          (Happy New Year)
Slovenian:   Srecno Novo Leto !!              (Happy new Year)
Swahili:     Mwaka Njema !                    (Happy new Year)
Swedish:     Gott Nytt Aar !                  (Happy new Year)
Tamil:       Puthandu nal valthukal           (Happy new Year)
Turkish:     Yeni yil mutlu olsun or Iyi yillar ! (Happy new Year)
Urdu  :      Naya Sal Mubarak !               (Happy new Year)
wolof:       Niou at djame !                  (Happy New Year) [Senegal]
??????:      Aes gliikhaftigs Niiws Jaahr!    (Happy New Year)
  

Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: "n'ha" == "daughter of" ? Language?
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 00:21:43 GMT

In article <4490003@hpcc01.corp.hp.com>, zornow@hpcc01 (Claudia Zornow) writes:
>> I'm curious about the middle name "n'ha" in the quote I'm using
>> in my signature file. I'm told it means "daughter of" but I can't
>> find it in any reference. What language is it? Is there an
>> equivalent for "son of" in the same language? Inquiring minds
>> want to know!
>
>> Adams Douglas   | Always tell the truth, | You can die like the rest,
>> adamsd@         | then you make it the   | or be one of the best.
>> crash.cts.com   | other bloke's problem! | - Cyndi n'ha June, 1992
>> Chula Vista, CA | - Sean Connery, 1971   |
>
>The "n'ha" usage comes from Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series
>of science fiction novels.  I don't know whether she made it up or
>got it from some known language.  She has a set of female characters
>called Renunciates, or Free Amazons, who have made themselves
>independent of the strictures normally imposed on women of Darkover,
>and who change their names to show matrilineal descent.

There are two languages in use in Bradley's Darkover novels, Portuguese and
Gaelic.  Gaelic is the secret/private/it's-been-too-long-and-I-don't-remember-
which language of the _Comyn_ (which, as we learn in _Darkover Landfall_, is
the remains of a Gaelic-language commune).

But it's never made clear whether she means Irish or Scottish, or some combina-
tion of both brought about by political pressures in her vision of the future.

Do you know for a fact that "Cyndi n'ha June" is influenced by Bradley?
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: rrkncp@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: test
Date: 7 Jan 93 16:50:49 GMT
Reply-To: rrkncp@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology

this is a test
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: petex@cix.compulink.co.uk (Peter Christian)
Subject: Re: labio-velars to labials, but reverse?
Reply-To: petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:18:00 +0000


> In article <memo.854872@cix.compulink.co.uk>, petex@cix (Peter Christian) writes:
> >In-Reply-To: <1993Jan8.002108.20583@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@cisco.com (Rich 
Alderson)
>               .
                .
> >Also Latin lupus, though the Oxford Etymological Dictionary says this is a
> >dialect form. (I thought they *all* were!)
> 
> Ah, but Latin has clearly borrowed from one or more dialects and languages in
> its surroundings:  Compare, for example, the expected ruber "red" < *Xrudhros
> (cf. Skt. rudhra-, Gk. eruthros) with the personal name Rufus "red-beard."

That wasn't what I was getting at. I was trying to draw attention to
the ideology of this (very august) etymologist (Onions), who was
using the idea of a dialect form in a way that is appropriate to a
modern standardized language, but less obviously so to Latin -
particularly since the centrality of the wolf in Roman mythology
suggests the borrowing occurred in an early period when Latin had a
status barely different from neighbouring dialects.

Peter
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Christian                         
  Dept of European Languages              peter@gold.ac.uk
  Goldsmiths' College, London.            petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: petex@cix.compulink.co.uk (Peter Christian)
Subject: Re: The Days Of The Week In Latin
Reply-To: petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:30:00 +0000


> any ideas on why Saturday was special.

Not a clue. You can see why it's special in Christian communities,
and I suppose we can guess there *might* have been some similar pagan
religious reasons. But do we even know that the Germanic tribes had a
7-day week before their contact with the Romans? What about the
Celts, for example?
There is another way of looking at this, perhaps. Namely, the Latin
names of these Gods were also the names of planets. Of course, since
we know even less about Germanic astronomy than we do about their
religion, I realise this isn't a terribly helpful suggestion.
Since my last posting I've been tring to think if there's a Germanic
equivalent of Saturnus, and I think the answer is: there *isn't* a
god associated with the underworld - in Norse mythology both the Vanir
and the Aesir dwell above the earth and the underworld is associated
with the dragon Nidhogg. (It's also worth noting, I think, that the
word `hell' is one of the few bits of the pagan religious terminology
to survive Christianisation, which might be related to the special
status of Saturday in some way.) So if the Gmc tribes had no
equivalent god that would explain why they didn't bother to translate
the name.
Does that make any sense?

Peter
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Christian                         
  Dept of European Languages              peter@gold.ac.uk
  Goldsmiths' College, London.            petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: wolfi@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Schwanke)
Subject: Re: Origin of English?
Keywords: clobbered; zillions; cut-plug
Organization: Techn. University of Berlin, Germany
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:06:13 GMT

matt@amsaa-cleo.brl.mil (Matt Rosenblatt) writes:

[much deleted]

>With all its special virtues, it's no wonder that foreigners all
>over the globe are learning English to a far greater extent than
>French, Arabic, German, Italian or Japanese.

I'd argue that. People don't learn  a particular language because it is easy
to learn, but because there's a social need or advantage. English is the most
widespread as 2nd language in the world, and national language in a large
number of countries all around the world. This is mainly a leftover from the
British empire that spread the language all around the globe (the USA started
off as a British colony too). So learning English gives you the largest
possible number of people to communicate with, and that's a self-reinforcing
effect.

Briefly: political and social issues determine the emergence of a world
language. It was the same with Latin and French at their times.


>					-- Matt Rosenblatt
>					(matt@amsaa-cleo.brl.mil)

Ciao :)

Wolfgang

--
* Wolfgang Schwanke * Technische Universitaet Berlin * Germany * wolfi on irc *
* email: wolfi@cs.tu-berlin.de       *      wolfaefg@w250zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de *

   Everybody needs a little love sometime; stop hacking and fall in love!
Newsgroups: sci.lang,misc.writing,sci.logic
From: acoggins@drops.Princeton.EDU (Adam Cody Coggins)
Subject: Re: Rhetorical question
Originator: news@nimaster
Keywords: rhetoric why-ask-why
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 02:41:49 GMT

In article <fstuart.921230205341@lab16.eng.auburn.edu> fstuart@eng.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) writes:
[...]
>[etc]
>
>On a related note, what about a term for a statement that has a contrary
>meaning?  For example, there is a sign in a local parking lot that reads:
>
>                           NO PARKING
>                         PERMIT REQUIRED

A statement that can never be true (e.g. "X is true and X is false")
is a contradiction, and a statement that is always true (e.g. "X is 
true or X is false") is a tautology, according to a logic course I took.

-Cody Coggins
From: slie@ulrik.uio.no (Svein Lie)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finn...
Date: 4 Jan 93 10:16:21 GMT
Organization: University of Oslo


>Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finn...
>From: jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
>
>hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:
>
>
>>The Chuvash language is known as a 'lir' Turkish vs almost
>>all the rest which are 'shaz' languages. The 'sh', 'a' and
>>'z' in most Turkic languages become 'l','i','r' in this
>>group.
>
[...]
>
> Z to r is also strange; once again, it's usually
>the other way around as far as I know, e.g. French chaire
>--> chaise, and, if memory serves, Latin r --> s.
>Off-hand, I can't think of cases of a regular change of
>sh into l, or of z into r. Could it be that it is Chuvash
>that has been the conservative one, phonologically?
>

z > r is attested in the development from Proto-Nordic to
Old Icelandic. E.g. in masc. nouns nom. sing. the endings -os
and -is (as in Greek, cf. Latin -us/-is) became Proto-Germanic
-az/-iz, which gave proto-Nordic -aR/-iR (where R is supposed to
be a voiced palatal fricative), which gave Old Icelandic -r
(gastis > gastiR > gestr ('guest'), cf. Latin hostis, Church
Slavonic gostu - and Gothic gasts).

Svein Lie
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Kipling (the 6 servants)
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 10:43:30 PST

I keep six honest serving men,
  they taught me all I know.
Their names are who and what and when
  and where and why and how.

..

I don't recall the rest, it's addressed
by Kipling to his daughter, and was doubtless
written in exasperation at an excessive
sequence of whys.  I think you'll find
the original in the "Just-so" stories.

Al Moore
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen)
Subject: Re: WNN/JWP Help
Keywords: jwp,wnn
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:26:11 GMT

yoichi@carson.u.washington.edu (Yoichi Ii) writes:

>I asked this a while ago but received no response.
>Please allow me to repost.

>I'm starting to use JWP, a Japanese word processor for
>MSDOS machines. It comes witdictionary called WNN.  In order to use this in JWP
>however, you also need an index file for WNN.  I have
>a bigger WNN file than the one wwould like to use it.  

>Q: Does anyone know    What's in these index file anyway? (If it's a trade
>   secret, just tell me so :-)

I didn't reply because I hoped that Stephen Chung (author of JWP)
would see it and reply.  Stephen is possibly off the network now, so if
anyone has a workable email address for him, they might pass it to
Yoichi.

I don't know what indexing Stephen uses. It may be similar to that used in
JDIC, but then it may be a simpler one as in MOKE. Have you attempted
any reverse engineering?

-- 
Jim Breen                           JIS:$B%8%`!!%V%j!<%s(J
Department of Robotics & Digital Technology. Monash University. 
PO Box 197 Caulfield East VIC 3145 Australia (ph) +61 3 573 2552 
(fax) +61 3 573 2345  AARNet/Internet:jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au