HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: NL MLVs through 7/26
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:51:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

Here are the leaders in Total Marginal Runs through last Sunday.  These
numbers are not park or position adjusted, and do not include contributions
(or costs) incurred on the basepaths.

TMR are computed by (a) using the Runs Created formula to project how many
runs a team with league-average AVG/OBP/SLG should score, (b) figuring out
how an average team's AVG/OBP/SLG would change if a particular player got
1/9 of their plate appearances in place of a league-average player, (c) using
these new AVG/OBP/SLG numbers to make a new RC projection, and (d) taking the
difference in runs per game.  This gives MR/G, the marginal runs per game that
this player is worth on offense, over/under what an average player would be
worth.  Scaling these by actual plate appearances gives TMR, an estimate of
exactly how many runs above/below average this player actually *has* been
worth.

For players with 300+ plate appearances:


   Player		MR/G	 TMR

1. Barry Bonds		.432	33.81
2. John Kruk		.357	33.01
3. Fred McGriff		.372	32.62
4. Gary Sheffield	.322	30.04
5. Mark Grace		.217	20.47
6. Will Clark		.230	20.39
7. Darren Daulton	.242	20.26
8. Tony Gwynn		.177	16.77
9. Ray Lankford		.166	16.25
10. Larry Walker	.180	14.41
11. Brett Butler	.150	14.32
12. Ryne Sandberg	.146	14.19
13. Dave Hollins	.119	11.54
14. Delino DeShields	.109	10.69
15. Barry Larkin	.132	10.62
16. Felix Jose		.132	 9.88
17. Bobby Bonilla	.106	 9.81
18. Lenny Dykstra	.101	 7.28
19. Terry Pendleton	.074	 7.14
20. Dave Magadan	.090	 7.07
.
.
.
32. Andre Dawson	.011	 0.91
33. Darrin Jackson	-.00	-0.04
.
.
.
45. Tim Wallach		-.14	-12.64
46. Dick Schofield	-.18	-13.95
47. Jose Lind		-.27	-20.40


As promised:  Eddie Murray is currently at -1.07 overall, making him a below-
average offensive player, and well below average among first basemen.  I stand
by my claim that the Mets would be scoring more runs with an average first
baseman, such as Jeff Bagwell or Eric Karros, than they are with Murray.

-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cjlee@laplace.uwaterloo.ca (Ironman)
Subject: Jays: Gillick says there will be a trade
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 00:27:57 GMT

Pat Gillick says that he is "confident" that he'll make a trade soon.
Just who will the Jays get?  I know they need a left-handed bat.
With KC in town, would George Brett be the one?  And what about that
California rumor?

And who would the Jays give up?  Gruber?  Stottlemyre?  Steib?

Or perhaps the manager to satisfy the Cito Bashing Club?  ;)
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thursday, 23 Jul 1992 13:53:16 CDT
From: Howard Wachtel <U13054@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Strike 1 on Commissioner

   The Cubs have been granted their request for a preliminary injunction
restraining Commissioner Vincent's decision to move them to the NL West!
The judge stated that the commissioner overstepped his bounds, and has
no more right to move the Cubs to the NL West than to the AL.  Take that,
commish!  Cubs win round 1.  We're all waiting with baited breath for
round 2.
________________________________________________________________
Howard K. Wachtel              University of Illinois at Chicago
U13054@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU        Phone (312) 975-7970
From: bohy6489@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cubs totally finished with Maddux?
Date: 24 Jul 92 21:14:40 GMT
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1992Jul23.200609.5991@advtech.uswest.com>, steven@jaynes.uswest.com ( Steve Novak) writes:
> I can see no good result if Maddux is traded, from the viewpoint of 
> being a Cub fan.  Can anyone else?

I for one can.  If they have no hope of getting him signed (and nothing I have
heard or read says that they do), then why shouldn't they try to get something
for him?  If he doesn't want to stay in Chicago, are the Cubs so wrong to try
to get something out of the deal?

If they let the trade deadline get by and he doesn't sign, then they pretty
much lose all around.  I think if Maddux was going to sign, he would have by
now.

I was "informed" by a friend that Maddux is not that interested in making the
money, that he really wants to play with a club that can win.  That, in some
ways, is almost as selfish as playing for the money.  But can you blame him? 
The best pitching record in the NL over the past how many years, and little to
show for it.

So the Cubs need to either prove to Greg that they *can* win before this trade
deadline, or try to get something to cover the loss of Maddux.

Just goes to show how little *fun* there is left in this game...

===============================================================================
Jim Bohy                                        | "I am he as you are he as you
Graduate Student - Computer Science Education   |  are me as we are all
University of Northern Iowa                     |  together..." - J. Lennon
Cedar Falls, IA  50614                          |
bohy@att1.uni.edu                               |  by the above, I am myself
===============================================================================
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:49:52 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in Hoboken

bonds has played *left* field for most of his career.   

- bob
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: The slide has started
Keywords: Cardinals
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:06:43 GMT

Just like last year the Cardinals have started the 2nd half poorly and
are sliding down the standings. They are in a difficult schedule period,
but the way they're playing it probably doesn't matter.

Yesterday they managed to blow a game against the Reds despite 2 
totally unexpected performances from starters. Andres went 3-5 with
his 4th homerun and is up to .220(to be fair, he's been hitting
better for the last ~15 games), and Rich Gedman went 2-2 with 2
walks, yet they still lost. Carpenter gave up the game winning jack
to Hal Morris, 6-5 Reds.

Luis Alicea is back and hitting well,problem is that when we score
we get not pitching. Osborne had his 3rd bad start in a row, ERA is
now 3.79.

Now having defended Todd Zeile quite a bit on this group in the past,
I find myself now placing a lot of blame on him for the offensive
struggles of the team. Todd is up to .263 and leads the team in walks,
but he's still slugging under .400 and has almost become a singles
hitter. He has 16 doubles(he was third in the NL last year with
I think 36)and just 5hr's, despite the hot start and the fences coming
in. If Torre moves Lankford back to leadoff, Zeile would hit 3rd or
4th, but he just isn't hitting well enough to justify that move, 
right now Gilkey leadoff and Ray 3rd is the better lineup. Zeile needs
to turn it on if St. Louis will stay in the race(which I don't think
we will unless Pittsburgh continues to struggle).




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I want a world where I can eat a sea otter without getting sick!"

Leslie Nielsen in the Naked Gun 2 1/2
******************************************************************************
From: cs.ucsd.edu!demers@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Simulation Games
Date: 23 Jul 92 04:18:00 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego
X-mailer: Stadel 3.4a-227
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

In article <QePOu0i00Uh7M1JNxs@andrew.cmu.edu> tf0y+@andrew.cmu.edu (Todd 
Harris Fletcher) writes:
>What is the best board simulation game?  APBA? Strat-o-Matic? Persue the
>Pennant? Why do you think that?

I like Strato over APBA, more because of realism and playability -
there are some things APBA just can't do (same for Strato too,
but less, IMO), and strato is really simple to play since
most plays don't need the charts.

I haven't played PTP, but rumor is that it's the best.
Don't know what might make it better.

-- 
Dave DeMers    ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering C-014  demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego     ...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114 (619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
From: jmarin@hobbes (Jose A. Marin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Astros' schedule
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:47:49 GMT
Reply-To: jmarin@hobbes
Organization: NASA

Does anyone know if the Astros will be playing at home on Sunday July 26?
I will be in Houston that day and I would like to watch a game if
possible.

Jose A. Marin
jmarin@hobbes.ksc.nasa.gov
(407) 867-3366
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: ARTIFICIAL TURF: EMBARASSMENT TO THE GAME
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:05:15 GMT
Organization: Future Visitors To Kirschdom

In <92202.183405IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ryan Robbins) writes:

>First of all, I, as everyone else does, know that teams that use
>domes need artificial turf, unless they would like to play on a
>dirt field. I'm not the least bit happy about domes. I have never
>liked them and I never will. I do realize, though that for some
>teams a dome is the only way baseball can be reasonably played,
>considering such weather conditions such as extreme heat, chronic
>rain, maybe even cold weather. But this thing with artificial turf
>has to be examined.

Actually, I've been hearing a lot about experiments to grow grass
under a dome this past year, and I suspect it will be quite possible
to do so within 5 or so years.  Ironically, we may see the turf removed
from the domes but not from the open air parks because teams like the
Royals consider the quick-drying feature of turf to be very important
to the club's financial well-being.

Greg 
-- 
  spira@panix.com       "The one-O delivery to Fisk.  He swings.  Long drive,  
 cmcl2!panix!spira      left field!  If it stays fair, it's gone!  Home Run!"  
158-17 Riverside Dr.                     Ned Martin, 10/22/75   
Whitestone NY 11357          (Insert your favorite baseball moment here)
From: a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:11:38 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Jul27.235149.8186@leland.Stanford.EDU>, claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
> In article <1992Jul27.124822.256@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>>
>>	It certianly doesn't see to be, though I am arguing from ignorance
>>here. If RC/27 is adjusted for *teams* runs scored, then I don't see a gaping
>>hole.  If, on the other hand, the team's overall performance doesn't come into
>>play, then the stat is severely flawed. If the latter is true, ignore the next
>>paragraph.
> 
> I hope that you don't mean that!  Everyone knows that Roberto Alomar is a
> better offensive player than Rene Gonzales, but if we use your reasoning,
> if we "adjust" Alomar's offense by the great offense the Blue Jays have,
> and "adjust" Gonzales' by the horrible offense the Angels have, then Gonzales
> is a better offensive player than Alomar?  I certainly hope that is not what
> you meant.

	As I mentioned in the my first paragraph (which I deleted), I did
mention that I wasn't really sure how RC/27 is calculated (not in so many
words). The name of the stat made me think that a player's rating depended
on his teammates to great deal (okay, yes, I was thinking about the old 'runs
created' formula; RC = runs scored + RBIs - HR). 

	Thanks for posting the fomula, BTW.

	:-) :-)

Brandon Cope

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt Bose "of Biscayzee")
Subject: Re: Redheaded Stranger Involved in Kill-Spree Bloodbath
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 05:39:40 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico
Distribution: na

In article <1992Jul21.194119.29992@u.washington.edu> sieferme@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.221521.8526@cs.umn.edu> lsmith@cs.umn.edu (Lance "Not Here" Smith) writes:
>>So did everyone see who was the AL Player of the Week?
>>
>>What next? Jim Acker awarded Pitcher of the Month? (Well, his not playing
>>has no doubt helped Seattle immensely.)
>>-- 
>>   Lance "Zeppelin" Smith      | "O hateful error, melancholy's stat!
>
>For a good indication of how bad things are with the M's pitching
>staff, many fans (including some knowledgeable ones) are actually
>looking forward to Acker coming back.  No kidding.

Oh, don't forget that Juan Agosto has the lowest ERA of any M's reliever.
Followed by Mark Grant.

Y'know, a couple months ago, I posted my "Rotisserie Bullpen from Hell".  That
pen included, among other guys, including four who aren't playing organized
baseball anymore, Acker, Agosto, and Jeff Nelson.  Prophetic, ain't I???

-Kurt "I'm not Woody Woodward" Bose


-- 
*  Kurt Bose (as in * I am NOT the Antichrist, no matter what my future mother
*  Daisy, not Rose) * in law may think. Nor do I pretend to speak for UNM. Tried
*kbos@carina.unm.edu* it one time, but they caught me at it. I think they were a
*  Junior Stathead  * tad miffed at me, sure, but the Dean's hair DID grow back.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 06:02:30 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.023819.18421@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (roger maynard) writes:

>Why do you think the Jays went and signed Griffin?

Why do you think the Dodgers went and signed Gross?  The same reason why the
Jays signed Griffin - stupidity.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:01:09 GMT

In article <10010651@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) writes:
>In rec.sport.baseball, djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>
>> I think that stats are very valuable to look at but some people put too
>> much emphasis on them when comparing players.  For example compare George
>> Bell to Dave Winfield and their contributions to the Jays.  If they had
>> exactly the same stats I would take Winfield over Bell because Winfield
>> always puts 100% effort, is a hard worker, is a team leader and will do
>> anything the manager says and anything which will help the team win.
>
>Ah, but they *don't* have exactly the same stats (at least, I doubt they do).

Did I ever say that they had the *SAME* stats. NO.  I said *IF* they had the
same stats.  I don't mind anyone argueing with my opinions but make sure
you get my opinions correct.

>Do you really mean to say you'd take the lesser player if he gave 100% effort?
>Awfully sweet of you, but not conducive to winning, which is what a lot of us
>enjoy.

If the lesser player can improve the clubhouse atmosphere which in turn
may improve the the teams performance on the field then of course I would
take the less talented player.

>> Another thing that stats don't show is how agressive a player is.  For 
>> anyone who has seen R. Alomar play a lot you will realize that he forces
>> other teams to make errors by running extra hard to first on a ground ball
>> causing the other team to rush a throw etc.  As far as I know there is no
>> stat which shows this.
>
>OBA would if it counted "reached base on errors", which most true sta-heads
>believe it should.

Even so if the wild through goes into the dugout and the player goes to 
second the player is now in scoring position which is much better than
being on first or out which a non agressive players may be.  The same
can be said for a player trying to stretch a single into a double and
forces a wild throw and now he is on third which another player may only
be on first.

>> Stats don't tell everything about a player so don't
>> base your arguements on stats alone.
>
>If the argument is "who is a better player", then good objective statistics
>contribute a whole lot more than what someone says about how hard the players
>worked.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Marc "Dave" Sabatella		Disclaimer: OPS is not the One True Statistic
>marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com		that makes all others obsolete
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Ok
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:16:21 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Jul22.143226.15096@cpqhou.compaq.com> carlr@cpqhou.UUCP (Carl Rempert) writes:
>Now that the smoke has somewhat cleared(?), I feel it is time to respond.
>One more point and I'll get off my soapbox.  Frank Thomas is god on this
>newsgroup and it has been stated how "stat-heads" saw his coming from afar.
>I almost get the impression that individuals here think they were the only
>ones who saw his capabilities.  If I recall right, wasn't he a high 1st
>round pick of the White Sox?  It hardly seems like sabermetric people were
>the only ones to see his potential.  In fact, it is most probable that
>the White Sox selected him because of the input from their scouting corp.
>Sorry I just get tired of seeing individuals here wave FT around as an 
>example of their prowess in projecting talent.  



But if the WhiteSox had been choosing first and 7th or or whenever it was
tehy chose Frank, their scouting corps wouldn't have advised them to pick
Frank. They would chosen Ben McDonald or "shudder" Paul Coleman like the
Cardinals did because they were the guys the baseball scouts rated at the
top.

The main thing I've seen about Frank on here is merely pointing out that
his numbers are so extraordinary since he was drafted, that its not a
reach to proclaim him a star, while some people keep saying he's only 
had 1 full year wait till the pitchers adjust

If the Cardinals had checked out Frank's total package offensively
instead of wondering if he could play defense, they would have taken
him and would be a better team, but instead they took the "best athlete"
in Paul Coleman who has hit under .200 in low A ball is out this whole
year with knee surgery(an injury that existed when they drafted him)
and who will likely never play for the Cards. Frank's college numbers
still had a ton of walks, sure the HR's are inflated by pitching and
the aluminum bat, but you can't tell me a guy his size wasn't easy to
project as a power hitter, with his eye and ability he should have
been the first pick.




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I want a world where I can eat a sea otter without getting sick!"

Leslie Nielsen in the Naked Gun 2 1/2
******************************************************************************
From: traven+@pitt.edu (Neal Traven )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cangelosi update
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:43:57 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <BrpGDH.AzA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.194247.10761@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>>Please, don't anybody tell the Pirates he's available...
>
>Don't worry, Sherri.  I tried to call Mr. Simmons this morning to let him know,
>but I must have dialed the wrong number.  By coincidence, though, the man who

While drinking cheap Cokes in the Pirates' offices during a break in the
Forbes Field SABR chapter meeting last Saturday, Dave Tate and I happened
to see the Bucs' office telephone directory.  Thus, I really *do* know Ted
Simmons's direct phone number.

Sherri, would you like me to send it to you by private e-mail?

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven@unix.cis.pitt.edu	    Beisbol been bery bery good to me!
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu				  -- Chico Escuela
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: All right, let's settle Stathead vs. Intangiblehead FOR GOOD.
Keywords: Duel, Honor, Hot Fudge Lundy, NuKid [tm]. Steerific...
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:20:24 GMT

In article <15621@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Not Just For The Dead Huckabay) writes:
>How about a stathead softball game?  Pro-Stat versus anti-stat, nine
>innings of slow pitch, losers shut up forever on the topic.  
>
>With this in mind, I propose the following lineup:
>
>		    Ft. Lauderdale Steamrolling Statheads
>		    -------------------------------------
>		    RP  Joe "Ted" Lundy
>		    RP  Dennis "Eckersley" Cleary
>
>		    Legal Counsel: Ted "Shyster" Frank

Dammit, I could be an Ackeresque relief pitcher!  Besides, you're over-
emphasizing my stats; think of the intangibles I'd bring to the team!
And over 90% of my RBI's come with *runners on base*.  Beat *that* for
clutch performance.
-- 
                      ....................................
                      ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
                      the university of chicago law school 
                      official member of the cultural elit