From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: Boycotts (was Re: Why are many low-income women fat?)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 21:56:21 GMT

rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:

>	I tend to get joint problems when I put on weight, and
>	I feel shortness of breath and the whole deal.  Slim, I feel
>	wonderful--full of energy, active, better ableto study and 
>	concentrate.  

You may feel that way, but remember many people do not. I feel *more*
wonderful when I *do* pursue a healthy lifestyle, but not when I
try to diet. 

>>As long as I'm on my soapbox, I'd like to bring up another concern I
>>have about your postings. 

>>However, your postings do disturb me in retrospect,
>>not because I don't essentially agree with you on these matters -- I
>>do -- but because of your emotional tone. I really got a feeling from
>>you, of disgust for these women. 

>	You're right.  I find voluntary ignorance revolting.  When I'm
>	sitting in class and I see some bimbo doing her makeup, I feel
>	an almost violent need to try and communicate to that person
>	just what it is they're doing: condemning themselves to miserable
>	failure and condemning me to paying for it, listening to their
>	whining about how unfair life is, and taking the blame for their
>	own failure.  

>	I _do_ find it disgusting--I cannot imagine feeling any other
>	way towards these people.  They remind me, very much, of Joe
>	Bully on the playground who bullies the other kids with his
>	pre-mature growth and then, when they've all grown too and
>	ignore him, cries about how unfair life is.  

>	Sympathy?  Well, perhaps I'm a little cold hearted.  They
>	have been told it's important, they have been told that it's
>	urgent, they have been told that it's essential--to their 
>	future.  They have been _shown_ all of these things, on
>	television, in real life [just walk downtown in DC], their
>	neighbors, their parents, their relations can all tell or show
>	the need for education and preparation--and what do they
>	do with it?  In their arrogance--insolence--they IGNORE the
>	world and pursue their own selfish ways and then 
>	_blame_ the rest of _us_ for _their_ failure.  And it can be
>	no one elses than theirs!

>	I almost compulsively state things using very strong
>	wording and fanatic presentation, and I am aware of this,
>	but it is the only way I know to get across the urgency I 
>	feel on certain problems.  So take the above with a grain
>	of salt--I do feel *sorry* for them, but that doesn't mean
>	I feel _responsible_ for their problems or any desire to
>	pay for their failure.

Yamanari (is this how I should address you)? I am aware that you feel
strongly about these matters. But your language is not
necessarily the most effective way to present your case.

I feel very strongly about most of the things I write about; and I
am trying very hard to convey the strength of my feelings without
alienating people unnecessarily. End result -- you may not have
ended up *agreeing* with the things I say, but I'm sure you've
come away with more respect and understanding for feminist positions --
or at least *my* feminist positions -- because of them.  

Of course I have a chronological advantage -- maybe about 20 more
years on this earth, *trying* to learn how to write. But don't worry -- a
chronological challenge is self-correcting. :-)  

And, by the way, in my 43 years I've faced adversities you couldn't
begin to imagine -- and as much as I've faced, I have a friend who faced
many times more. But people who have been through hard experiences and
faced them successfully, typically have more sympathy with those who
can't face them than you do (although, of course, not unlimited
sympathy).

>>I don't think disgust is appropriate in this case. I particularly
>>don't think it would be appropriate for me. I have a hard enough
>>time getting on the emotional wavelength of these women, in order
>>to reach them, anyway. 

>	Some of the best teachers I've had were teachers that I 
>	actively disliked.  I remember my original spanish teacher, 
>	who was almost insectoid in manner, and I also remember that
>	I learned more in that class, rapidly, than I have learned in
>	many others with teachers that I liked or felt attuned to.  

>	Some of the _worst_ teachers I've had were teachers that
>	empathized with the students, because yound men and women 
>	tend to be naturally manipulative.  With no armor or defense--
>	only understanding--he was powerless to maintain a heirarchy
>	over the class.

Here at this university, there are teachers who manage to get on the
wavelength of originally unmotivated students *without* giving them a
free ride. 

I know I was more on the wavelength of my spring 1992 class than I was
on that of the fall 1992 class. And my spring students *did* do better.
They were more willing to seek help.

>	It has to be a two sided affair.  You can't teach someone
>	that doesn't want to learn, no matter how badly you wish to do
>	so.

You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn, but you can motivate
people to want to learn. Not all the time, of course...

>>By the way, I would like to hear from people on this group who've worked
>>with teenagers, particularly female teenagers. Have you been able to 
>>convince them that studying is important? What methods did you use?

>	Why the focus on young women?

There is no intellectual reason for this focus. I brought up *female*
teenagers in specific, for two reasons:

1) This is a discussion group (supposedly) focused on women's issues.

2) For personal, emotional reasons, it particularly hurts me (in many
cases) to see bright young women ruining their lives in this manner. 
I guess I tend to see them as the daughters I never had.

>	Something I have never understood is how feminists can miss what
>	is so painfully obvious to me:  You cannot change something as
>	entrenched in society as, say, the self-centered mindset of youth
>	that allows them to blow off their duty to learn by focusing on
>	only 1/2 of the problem.  

Entrenched? It's amazing how many institutions and values that seemed
entrenched, in 1992, will have disappeared by 2022.

>	Focusing on young women only is pointless--not only will you
>	be fighting the mindset that they hold, you will be indirectly
>	fighting that of the young men around them who they see 
>	"getting away" with not doing anything and just gliding through.

So you think the best way to focus on people, to help them, is to let
them "get away" with things? 

You're right, though, that educational personnel should behave
impartially with their students. 

Lenore Levine
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:6713 soc.men:21999