HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kevin@pages (Kevin Sven Berg)
Subject: Re: 4.0 Wish: Bundled Groupware Tool
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 15:37:59 GMT



In article <1992Sep30.180319.20967@CS.ORST.EDU> chase@stumpy.cs.orst.edu (A.  
Chase Turner) writes:

The following is an excerpt from e-mail sent to NeXT in March 1990.  Since the  
time of this e-mail, HP has introduced Shared-X and SunSoft recently announced  
a similar tool, ShowMe.  In the text below, I refer to Fallaron's Timbiktu, a  
Mac-based application that is widely used for remote technical support in large  
corporations.

My 4.0 Wish: Interactive groupware support tool bundled with NeXT OS
NeXT Mail is an effective inter-personal communication tool that allows  
individuals to serialize requests/responses in their own, individual time;  
groupware tools are designed to manage coordinated interaction in highly  
concurrent working sessions where effective problem solving is based upon  
real-time group interaction.

>>>

In 1990 I saw a NeXT internal project by Bill Tschumy that behaved in similar  
fashion to Timbuktu. It was at a very early stage, and haven't heard of the it  
since. There are many reasons internal projects may or may not make it to  
market; resources, strategy, priorities or politics. Who knows.

BTW: Have you ever tried to use a remote window server session over a 19.2k  
line? NOT! I don't think Timbuktu functionality is a viable answer.

I would wager that NeXT would like to leverage technology that is much more  
substantial than what you describe, and in a way that can be easily extensible  
by 3rd parties. I think that DBKit, PhoneKit and Distributed Objects are two  
examples of doing this. Then there is the matter of extending and integrating  
with NeXT apps (such as mail). NS 3.0 takes steps in this direction by allowing  
Workspace modification. We need extensible mail in the future.

So, there are many pieces of the groupware framework that are being put into  
place, but NeXT needs to continue. I'd suggest sending them ideas on how they  
can open up Mail to things like calendaring and forms; or standardize protocols  
for a set of groupware Distributed Objects. Hey, we can all win out of this :-)  
!!!

--
Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
619-492-9050                `    `    `    `    `    `    `    `
-- 
Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
619-492-9050                `    `    `    `    `    `    `    `
From: jfr@RedBrick.COM ()
Subject: Re: Sun OR NeXT?! - help
Organization: Red Brick Systems, Los Gatos, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 00:21:33 GMT

In article <1ascqdINNcms@bigboote.WPI.EDU> nether@wpi.WPI.EDU (Joel C Belog) writes:
>In article <92280.082407MKK2@psuvm.psu.edu> <MKK2@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>how to convince management you want a NeXT?  Try this:  Say, "I'd like
>>my workstation to be a NeXT."  If they say, "Sorry, can't do that," then
>>you look really forlorn and say that that's too bad, but you'll have to quit.
>
>And if they say ... "Bye-bye", then what?  Luv my NeXT, but how about
>a reality check ... 
>was there supposed to be smileys sprinkled liberally all over the place?

 Seriously, the best time to do this is NOT after you start work but
 before you accept a job.  It is very interesting what you can get a
 company to agree to if they really want you and can afford the demands.
 Certainly the type of workstation or PC you get as your principal
 tool is a negotiable item.  Also, you will know up front whether the
 company really stands for "open systems" or just gives it lip service.
 
 Jon Rosen
From: neubert@cuphub.cup.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sun OR NeXT?! - help
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:23:14 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: California University of Pennsylvania, California, PA

In article <92280.082407MKK2@psuvm.psu.edu>, MKK2@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
> how to convince management you want a NeXT?  Try this:  Say, "I'd like
> my workstation to be a NeXT."  If they say, "Sorry, can't do that," then
> you look really forlorn and say that that's too bad, but you'll have to quit.
What moronic nonsense.  If the person takes this type advice, he's as
much the problem as the advisor.  What does the person do, my friend,
when, taking your advice, he ends up on the street (especially in these
"best of all possible worlds"/times)?  The best advice is for the
individual to use the Sun at work (it's really a great machine itself,
notwithstanding all the [appropriate because of the setting] bashing done
here) and use the good tax dollars he'll receive in salary to buy a 
NeXT for his own personal exploration if he is so inclined.  He might
still convince others at NIST by this means.  However, the "well,
I'll take my toys and go home" attitude is immature and counter-
productive.

John Neubert
From: matt%mattcube@mcnc.org (Matthew M. Stecker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Plea to NeXT: Re: (Shipping packaging)
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:05:15 GMT
Reply-To: matt%mattcube@mcnc.org
Organization: UNC School of Law, CC for NeXT Computer, Inc.


> ede978e@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Robert D. Nicholson) writes:
> 
> >This is a plea to Next about their packaging, OR how to ship a monitor
> >so it will definately get broken!!!.
> 
> >All the lies between the monitor, in its pillo case and the outside of the
> >box is about 4 cm of air. No foam nothing, hence if there was something
> >my monitor would have stood a good chance of not getting damaged. 

	I agree with Robert, that some more packaging on the 21 inch monitors  
might be appropriate, but lest people become apprehensive about buying one, my  
experience has been good with the factory packaging.  I'm about 5 for 5 on  
monitors that I've unpacked being good after shipping (just did one yesterday).   
By the way, has everyone seen NeXT's new 'eco' packaging?  The new stuff comes  
in brown cartons instead of the old white ones.  

matt

-- 
matt stecker			|	This is my NeXT Computer
NeXT Campus Consultant,		|	There are many like it,
UNC School of Law		|	but this one is mine.
From: gam@techlaw.com (Da Dawg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why didn't Apple sue?
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:03:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: techlaw.1992Oct7.160335.27274
Reply-To: gam@techlaw.com
Organization: MARGER JOHNSON McCOLLOM & STOLOWITZ Inc, Portland OR

Karl Thoroddsen writes:
> First the facts:
> 
> ...When a read about the NeXT's Workspace shell it sounded 
> and looked very similiar to the Macintosh Finder, with 
> dragging and dropping of icons between folders etc.  So my 
> question is:  Why didn't Apple sur NeXT for look-n-feel
> when the NeXT Workspace shell was first released?
> 
	In all likelihood, both companies reached an accord  
during the early days when the initial split came and  
announcements were made.  Secondly, I am not at all convinced  
the Finder and WorkSpace Manager are even remotely close enough  
to conclude there might be a "derivative work." BUT, this is my  
personal opinion, your mileage may vary, and certainly  
reasonable legal minds in this area will differ.

> Follow up question:(a though one)
> 
> Do you think NeXT would take legal look-n-feel action
> against someone imitating their shell on another 
> platform?
> 
	This could result in rediculous speculations and a  
thread of wasted bandwidth.  Neither of which are productive to  
the news group IMHO.  I'm one who strongly advocates avoiding  
litigation whenever possible.  However, NeXT does protect its  
intellectual property with a vengeance.  Afterall, NeXTSTEP is  
their crown jewel.  If someone were to commercialize an  
environment which could be proven to be a derivative work or an  
outright knock-off of NeXTSTEP, I'm know NeXT would take the  
appropriate action(s) to protect their assets and their hard  
earned marketshare.  They already police their trademarks well,  
and this is a sure sign they will act accordingly with regards  
to copyrights, patents and tradesecrets; as well, they should.   
If (unfortunately) it means litigation, then so be it.

	How about we move on to something more productive than  
the subject of software litigation?  This stuff always seems to  
end up in a flame-throwing match lowered to the level of battles  
over abortion rights. :-)

	Perhaps a thread of advocacy discussing the comparisons  
and contrasts of WorkSpace, Finder, OpenLook's FileManager (and  
better), Windows-NT's FileManager?

	Gregory Miller J.D.
	Patent Law Clerk & Technology Consultant


Marger Johnson McCollom & Stolowitz, P.C.
	Patent & Technology Lawyers
Portland, Oregon

&
Inherent Technologies, Inc.
gam@techlaw.com
From: dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:   NeXTStep 486 Drivers (was: 'I wish I was')  Reality Check
Distribution: usa
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:09:44 PST
Organization: Not an Organization

>In article <1992Oct7.000444.8704@Trirex.COM> bmehlman@trirex.com(Ben Mehlman) writes:
>>In article <dillon.0o3k@overload.Berkeley.CA.US>
>>dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes:
>........
>
>***************** Mild Flaming Beyond This Point ************************
>
>So what exactly are you two suggesting??  Sounds to me like you would
>prefer that the NeXTStep/486 developers should simply kill themselves and
>avoid the inevitable pain of failure.

    No, basically my point is that IBM PC's in general are a can of worms
    -- the hardware that is.  NeXT has to be really serious about NeXTSTEP
    486 and, so far, the $1000 dollar price I'm seeing is not serious.

    One of two things are going to happen:

    (1) NeXT is not going to sell many copies and will therefore not
	be able to obtain the $$ required to keep up to date with PC boxes
	and all the myrid hardware addons.

    (2) NeXT is going to sell a huge number of copies and will make a
	lot of money but will not invest enough in the massive support
	requirements the PC market requires to stay up to date (where
	today's boards are outdated tomorrow, literally!)

    (3) NeXT is going to do the right thing and sell a huge number of
	copies AND make a lot of money AND invest the huge sums necessary
	to continue to continue to support it.

    oops, that's three.  No matter how narrow you define your market
    the incredible rate at which things change in the PC hardware world
    will require a major committment to keep the OS up to date totally
    independant of any committment to add new features to the OS.

					-Matt

>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>    \|/	Ben Mehlman			 Indigo..
>   ^	^	Trirex Systems Inc
>   #	#	bmehlman@trirex.com		      Indigoing..
>     @
>   \___/	>NeXTMail Welcome<			     Indigone.

--

    Matthew Dillon		dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US
    1005 Apollo Way		uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon
    Incline Village, NV. 89451	ham: KC6LVW (no mail drop)
    USA 			Sandel-Avery Engineering (702)831-8000
From: alex@fiskville.mc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ranting about faults in NeXTstep ( was NeXTStep :-)
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:10:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: ut-emx.81605


Matthew Dillon writes
>     What kind nonsense is this?  This is comp.sys.next.advocacy, we can
>     talk about whatever we like.
> 
>     And besides, any time I come across what I would consider a bug I
>     always mail it to bug_next... AND post it to the net.
> 
> 					-Matt

Come on, relax. I am all for posting bug reports and suggestions to the  
net and I agree that you may discuss whatever you feel like discussing. I  
just find it humerous that you would call someone an idiot because they  
left out a feature that you want. When you post bug reports do you use  
such flattering language? "You morons... you really f'ed this up good..."  
probably wouldn't go very far with most people.

--
***************************************
Alex Currier
Texas Union MicroCenter
University of Texas at Austin

NeXTmail Preferred
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: john@wpa.com (John Bartley)
Subject: Re: NeXT prices (again)
Reply-To: john@wpa.com (John Bartley)
Organization: Workgroup Productivity Associates
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 19:55:48 GMT

In article <81386@ut-emx.uucp> ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas  
Floyd) writes:
> 
>   The thing that is probably hindering the NeXT are its prices for
> software.

	Perhaps this is true for some potential purchasers, but I don't  
think it is much of an issue, on the whole, for commercial accounts.

>  They are ludicrus.

	I don't think so. Given a little leeway for the huge difference  
in market share, I'd say that many NeXT apps are priced appropriately.

> 
> Lotus Improv for the NeXT is $549 while you can find Ms-Excel or
> Lotus 1-2-3 for Mac for $400.

	So? Nobody in their right mind is going to make or break a deal  
for a computer costing thousands, because one piece of software costs  
$149 more.

> 
> I like the NeXT machine, but sometimes I feel that software companies
> are price gouging.

	Well, as someone who has bought thousands of dollars worth of  
NeXT software, I would say that I've only been gouged by one NeXT  
software vendor. (The package no longer prints properly under 3.0, but  
they blame it all on NeXT, and demand big bucks to upgrade a package  
that I already paid $1700 for. This particular piece-of-crap STILL  
doesn't do things that were spec'd when I bought it in 1990, and  
remains the only NeXT app I've ever bought that is non-WYSIWYG (and  
they have the gall to blame that on NeXT too!!) Fortunately, vendors  
like this are in the minority. (Must be something wrong with the water  
in Pittsburgh, I guess.)

> 
> Are the NeXT programs more expensive to produce? If so, this
> could explain everything.  I do not mind paying more for a utility,
> if I get more in the process.  If Improv is tons better than 1-2-3 or
> Excel, I would buy it.  You get what you pay for.

	Yes, some aspects of them are more expensive on a per-unit  
basis. If Microsoft and Borland can spread fixed costs for a product  
over 1,000,000 copies, but the NeXT vendor can spread the same costs  
over only 2,500 or 5,000 copies, I think it is reasonable to conclude  
that, all else equal, the NeXT software might be more expensive. 

> 
> -- 
> ******* ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas R. Floyd) ******
>              (Insert standard disclaimer here)
> 
>    I would rather have a frontal lobotomy than Windows NT!

John Bartley
john@wpa.com
From: daynem@byron.u.washington.edu (Dayne Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXTmail copyright in Japan
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:37:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Oct7.163757.25750
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Hey, whatever happened to that deal in Japan where someone (Hitachi? I forget) 
was trying to claim NeXTmail was an infringement on some prior copyright of 
theirs, or something along those lines? I remember seeing a post several weeks 
back asking for any info from older technical journals that proposed the
same type of thing, but I never saw a follow-up. Anyone know the story?

daynem@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: wisdom@leghorn.cs.umn.edu (Scott Wisdom)
Subject: Re: Multiple Sound playing in 3.0!
Organization: University of Minnesota
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:06:30 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.143605.16857@dvorak.amd.com> rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com  
(Ron Pomeroy x(Coop)) writes:
> This all seems (at least to me) to add credence to the idea of NeXT ditching  
> the DSP in favor of using the main processor(s) for this kind of thing.  If  
you  
> watch a verbose boot process you will see something like "yourmachine mach:  
> audio kernel server initialized".  Read between the lines guys :-)
I tried some experiments using sound mixing - While I think it's a neat idea  
and extremely useful in many kinds of applications, it just doesn't cut the  
mustard when several sounds playing simultaneously are used in conjunction with  
lots of compositing (which many real-time video game applications will do). The  
CPU (on a 25MHz 040 Color) just can't keep up with it all. The results are  
sounds which aren't coordinated with related events and jerky animation, even  
when there are only a few small animated 'sprites' on the screen. In addition,  
score files, which still work under 3.0 and now can even be used simultaneously  
with sound files, will be history w/o a DSP.

-Scott Wisdom
wisdom@geom.umn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: reagan@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Christian deJesus)
Subject: Forbes 400
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 21:37:19 GMT


Steve Jobs has dropped out of this year's "Forbes 400." The magazine  
reported that his personal worth has gone down from last year's $350  
million to less than $100 million this year. ($250 million is the starting  
point for making the list.)

any thoughts on this?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais)
Subject: Re: Essence of flame
Organization: MIT Media Laboratory
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:18:06 GMT

In article <Bvps6t.HGz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>  
ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
> OK Lets see how many derogatory terms I've come across (mostly in
> comp.sys.amiga.advocacy):


Don't forget for NeXT --- NeVR  

pasc
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: NeXT prices (again)
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 18:31:03 GMT

Douglas Floyd writes
> 
>   The thing that is probably hindering the NeXT are its prices for
> software.  They are ludicrus.  Concurrence for the NeXT is $795
> discounted.  For the Mac, you could buy Acta, MS-Powerpoint and
> Pagemaker for that price.
> 
> Lotus Improv for the NeXT is $549 while you can find Ms-Excel or
> Lotus 1-2-3 for Mac for $400.
> 

Yes, a lot of prices are excessively high, but it pays to shop  
around.  I have in front of me a flyer from an outfit called PiXY in  
San Francisco that lists the following prices:
Improv $179
Adobe Illustrator $179
Draw $159 ($89 disks only)
WriteNow ($89 ($49 disks only)
etc

They don't carry as much as NeXTConnection, and these prices are only  
good for students/faculty (which includes you, Douglas, going by your  
address), but its a start.  Several vendors also have very attractive  
academic pricing.  Stone Design and LightHouse come to mind.   
EquationBuilder sells for $50 to students (no docs or disks, get app  
from archives) and a little more to faculty.  Some of these discounts  
are available through NeXTConnection (eg Squash academic is; perhaps  
others too).

Just some examples; don't despair - nobody pays list.

Disclaimer: no relationship to any of the companies mentioned, other  
than as a customer.

--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
From: ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT prices (again)
Summary: Software for NeXT mucho dinero
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:19:06 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX


  The thing that is probably hindering the NeXT are its prices for
software.  They are ludicrus.  Concurrence for the NeXT is $795
discounted.  For the Mac, you could buy Acta, MS-Powerpoint and
Pagemaker for that price.

Lotus Improv for the NeXT is $549 while you can find Ms-Excel or
Lotus 1-2-3 for Mac for $400.

I like the NeXT machine, but sometimes I feel that software companies
are price gouging.

Are the NeXT programs more expensive to produce? If so, this
could explain everything.  I do not mind paying more for a utility,
if I get more in the process.  If Improv is tons better than 1-2-3 or
Excel, I would buy it.  You get what you pay for.

-- 
******* ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas R. Floyd) ******
             (Insert standard disclaimer here)

   I would rather have a frontal lobotomy than Windows NT!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: NeXT prices (again)
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 01:37:30 GMT

In article <81386@ut-emx.uucp> ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd) writes:
>
>  The thing that is probably hindering the NeXT are its prices for
>software.  They are ludicrus.  Concurrence for the NeXT is $795
>discounted.  For the Mac, you could buy Acta, MS-Powerpoint and
>Pagemaker for that price.

Software for the NeXT can be had for much lower than list. In any case,
you are getting software that works in a multitasking/user way. System
7.xx sw on the Mac may be less costly (as are Mac's in general), but is 
hindered by the OS.
 
It's very simple as to what is hindering the NeXT. The hardware, especially
for colour, is far too expensive and NeXt keeps insisting on the "mission
critical" applications, when what is really needed is more packaged software.
 
For some odd reason NeXT reminds me a bit of the Amiga, although the NeXT
situation is not as bad. Nice hardware, even a nice OS (especially the Amiga's
latest3.0). Both companies keep harping on how much better their hardware
is compared to say a PC or a Mac. What both seem to forget is that it is
software which drives purchases and not nice hardware.
 
Other platforms are moving ahead, and this mission critical approach is, as
I have already said too many times, a short sighted view. The NeXT has far
more to offer. For one thing, a unified imaging model that is way above
anything else. There's a limit to how far you can get by claiming you can
link objects better and faster than anybody else.
 
For those who think OS/2 is not a threat, they should perhaps have a look
at some of the programs coming out for it, let alone the numbers of very 
large companies that are beginning to conduct pilot projects with it.
 
The problem that NeXT seems to have is in thinking that their competition comes
from the Unix world (Sun for example). That is simply not the case. It comes
from higher end Mac's and PC's.
 
[ ]

Philip McDunnough
philip@utstat.toronto.edu

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy