From: schwae@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Eric A. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: New Subscriber and a look on hunting
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 03:23:11 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.114127.5007@ac.dal.ca> robinson@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In article <+-4t-al@rpi.edu>, schwae@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Eric A. Schwartz) writes:
>> In article <1992Apr6.122808.4817@ac.dal.ca> robinson@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>>In article <s0ttz8q@rpi.edu>, schwae@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Eric A. Schwartz) writes:
>>>> In article <dirk.701805434@vincent1.iastate.edu> dirk@iastate.edu (Sleepy) writes:
>>>>>In <1992Mar27.082727.5985@rtf.bt.co.uk> traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In article <1992Mar26.101119.4553@ac.dal.ca> robinson@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Hint #3: It is a well known fact among hunters that deer who have 
>>>>>>>survived prior hunting seasons catch on to the begining of one very quickly 
>>>>>>>and become almost totally nocturnal.  Those who refuse to learn, and adapt, 
>>>>>>>end up on the supper table.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>That  doesn't  sound  particularly nice to me. This implies that hunters do
>>>>>>far  more  damage  than  just  kill  a  few  deer, they actually change the
>>>>>>living habits of the animal.
>>>>>
>>>>>The hunting season forces the deer to become more defensive, if not, they die.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  In Iowa, hunters annually bag about 25% of the deer population. And each
>>>>>year, the total deer population grows. It's not as if hunters are wiping
>>>>>out the population.
>>>>>
>>>> But they may be damaging the quality of that population.  Besides, if you 
>>>> are mainly catching the young, inexperienced animals, then the damage
>>>> would not show up for a few years, until the old ones die off and you 
>>>> are left with smaller, weaker, less able breeders to propagate the species.
>>>> It's happened with Blue whales.  They are much smaller than they used to
>>>> be.
>>>
>>>Really?  How exactly is the population damaged?  You think hunters kill off 
>>>all the really strong, smart deer, leaving the sick and weak behind?  Lets 
>>>assume this is so for a moment.  Now, what happens right after hunting 
>>>season?  Winter.  Winter is a time of harsh weather and little food.  Only 
>>>the strongest survive it, and they're usually not in great shape at the 
>>>end.
>>>
>> No, I don't think hunters take only the strong.  The argument is 
>> hypothetical.  But it did happen with Blue whales.  Going by your
>> argument, however, assuming only the strong are taken and only the
>> strong can survive winter, that would lead to extinction of deer in
>> a generation or two.
>
>I suspect that the entire population is relatively healthy, undoubtedly 
>there are a few exceptions, during hunting season.  I think the case of the 
>blue whales is sufficiently different from that of the whitetail (or other 
>land mamals) that comparisons are not especially valid.
>
I don't see enough deer to judge for sure.  The indicator of health 
isn't numbers, but size, strength, and age of first breeding.  If
they are breeding young, they are likely not healthy.  The case of
blue whales is somewhat different, but not because they are marine
animals.  The difference is that the hunt is somewhat regulated,
whereas whales were slaughtered in whatever numbers could be caught.
One could well imagine, however, that wiping out 40% of the population
anually could approach the danger level.

>>>>>   Otherwise, even though that deer has walked down that trail every
>>>>>morning for the last year, s/he will smell human, maybe hear human, or
>>>>>see human, and simply go the other way. I've seen it, I have heard about
>>>>>it numerous times, I have read about it numerous times.
>>>> 
>>>> The reason that there are "Deer Crossing" signs on highways is that
>>>> they do not stop using ancestral  trails.  Even with noisy, smelly
>>>> cars running over them.  And they never seem to learn not to get hit
>>>> by those.  IMO, it is more likely that it is specifically your behavior
>>>> that scares the deer off.  You sit there like a sloppy predator, making
>>>> an obvious effort to conceal yoursellf, but not doing a good job at it.
>>>> Deer don't seem to fear cars.  IMO that is because cars are clearly not
>>>> predators.  They move whether or  not they are seen, they take no 
>>>> action to keep the deer upwind, they don't try to be quiet, they don't
>>>> try to hide.  
>>>
>>>Funny thing but deer usually aren't afraid of cars at all.  Stop the car 
>>>and get out and *walk* however and they take off like someone hit them with 
>>>lightning.
>>>
>> Because they recognize you as human or because one animal burrowing out
>> of another is frightening?  Or because the noise of the door opening
>> scares them, or you tend to open the door quickly and the jerky movement
>> scares them?  Or because the car stopping to investigate the deer does
>> seem predatory for a change, or.....
>>   
>
>Well, *I think* it is because people don't shoot deer from cars as they 
>drive down the highway.  Even though one is not supposed to do it, it does 
>happen sometimes on our backroads.  I rarely see deer when travelling 
>backroads by car.
>
Based on what evidence?  Cars kill deer in large numbers, so if learned
info on fatalities is why they run, they should fear cars in general.
I've also seen films of deer taken up close from parked cars.  So 
the presence of a clearly visible human couldn't be it.  *I think*
it is because cars aren't predatory, but humans getting out of them
do act that way.  My evidence:  Deer have been known to come right
up to cars as long as the people are inside, so the person couldn't
be the frightening thing.  Deer don't fear cars, nor parked cars,
so cars in either motion or stationary position are not frightening.
What that leaves is the transition, when a car that could care less
suddenly sees you and comes towards you as if it were trying to
catch you.  Far from proof, but certainly not disproven.  BTW, I've
seen a film where the deer was so close to the open window of the
car that it was steaming up the lens with its breath.

On back roads, the cars move more slowly, as if stalking, and 
change direction more often as the road winds.  Back roads
are also usually less well cleared around the edges, so deer a
few feet away may be hidden in shrubbery.  Most highways have
a wide shoulder and wider cleared right-of-way.  So a deer at
some distance is visible, while a deer on a back road much
closer may not be.
 
>>>> When I used to go horseback riding,  the stablemaster said he often
>>>> saw deer, but only when on a horse.  The horse didn't act predatory,
>>>> either, so the deer weren't afraid.  I've seen lots of wildlife, 
>>>> some far more shy than deer, by not moving like a predator.  I go
>>>> slowly, and avoid loud noises, but I don't make any effort to conceal
>>>> myself or my presence.  In fact, I deliberately give it away.  That
>>>> way, they know I'm not trying to attack them, and they don't run.
>>>
>>>I'll have to try this next time I go hunting. :-)  During hunting season 
>>>deer are usually ultra paranoid.  They will assume that falling leaf is 
>>>predatory under some circumstances. :-)
>>>
>> Do so.  It should work, unless you get impatient with it.  It is not
>> as quick and easy as stealth.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Stealth, at least around here and from 
>what I've read this applies to other areas as well, is neither quick nor 
>easy.  One must usually be very stealthy indeed.
>
Yes, but you are familiar with the techniques.  It may take some
practice to start seeing wildlife by learning to act non-threatening.
It would be as if someone used to walking across flat carpets tried
to walk across dry leaves and twigs soundlessly.  It can be done
but it takes practice.  Don't assume (if you are serious about trying
it) that just because it doesn't work right away it doesn't work.
 
>>>>>   Or, try hunting a deer on the ground. This is high near impossible.
>>>>>A deer will probably see you long, long before you see it, hear you long
>>>>>before you hear it... The only way to groundhunt deer is to move
>>>>>_slowly_ (1/2 hour for 100 yards movement) around an area that is
>>>>>usually active with deer, and hope that a deer comes wandering by, running
>>>>>from other hunters.
>>>> 
>>>> Or sit by any highway.
>>>
>>>Or use a light.  Around here one isn't allowed to do either.  Not allowed 
>>>to shoot within several hundred yards of highways, buildings, etc.
>>>
>> It may not be legal, but it would work.  So that is not the only way
>> to groundhunt.  And if there is a second method, why wouldn't there
>> be others?
>
>There are others.  When I said there were no other ways to ground hunt 
>them, I should have qualified that with no other *legal* ways.  Of course, 
>the above not withstanding, if you can *spot* them, you can *stalk* them.  
>I've gotten remarkably close to deer doing this, but I still haven't gotten 
>a shot.
>
Maybe not everyone can do them, but there are other ways, if one is
good enough.  Bowhunters stalk much closer, as I understand it.

>In general, groundhunting requires one to move quietly and try to either 
>run into a deer that is up and around for some reason (eating, running from 
>other hunters, checking its scrapes) or to find their beds and try to 
>quietly work close enough to jump them.  The latter is very hard work.  Both 
>involve much walking, few sightings, and even fewer shots.
>
Because the techniques don't work or because they are difficult to do
properly?   Both of those are fairly broad categories, anyway.  There
are many ways one can move quietly, and there are many ways to find
deer, either at rest or moving.  I suppose one could invest in a good
thermograph and find them by heat, though that is a bit extreme.  Or
one could hire a number of "beaters" to scare deer over to one's 
position.  So it is artificially difficult.   There are many ways
to hunt deer, some more difficult, some easier (and due presumably to
the danger they represent to the population, generally illegal).  So
any particular hunting practice isn't a given "right" way to do it,
simply the way that works well enough not to fail, but not so well it
bores people and endangers the deer population.  There is a wide
margin of what could be considered "fair" hunting practice.   

E.S.