From: by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: continued discussions with Mustafa Soysal
Date: 11 Sep 1992 03:31:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


mistik@mistik.anatolia.mn.org (Mustafa Soysal) writes from his brand new 
net home (thru UUNet, the Mother of All Feeds :-):

> And with that CLAPping business, you watch too much TV.  Or if you are
> trying to pull off tricks, they don't work too well with me.

If you think that by CLAP-CLAP I am trying to pull tricks (read extract 
subliminal information from you) boy, yer' paranoid. I'm just pulling your leg.

> > CLAP-ON Interesting. all you see is "turks/muslims" and everyone else.
> > Who's got the binary brain? Have you seen me complain about postings
> > is other groups (i.e. the Makedonians, Pakistanis, Bosnians, etc). CLAP-OFF
> 
> No, you are the one targeting Turks and Muslims.  See the last paragraph.

Nope. I'm targeting 'Soysal' et. al. in the Mut*u/Cos*r/KEL*Y/Soys*l posthouse.
Whether they're Turks makes no difference except to the terminally paranoid.

> Unary brain of Spriros did not produce any information to go anywhere.

They why are you responding? Line at the unemployment office short today?
(and notice mispelling of name, whatsamatta, editor can't copy?)

> > silly.  But I don't flame them. (ESENA THELW RE!) CLAP-OFF
> 
> Aha, personal vendetta.

Sure. I could provide you the names of (Heaven Forbid) Turks with whom I
have had very warm, useful, down-to-the-point discussions on the net.  I
could even send you copies of email I have from them, or post their email
to the net, Soysal style. But I won't sink that low.

> > behold, i have a reply immediately, Thuesday morning. CLAP-OFF
> 
> What did you expect, a week turnaround? What is soo strange about it?
> Maybe you are underestimating me.  I might give you more turnaround time
> just for a change though. 

Instant Gratification. Insert $0.25 and whoever's on duty at the MCKS posthouse
(Mut*u/Cos*r/KEL*Y/Soys*l) goes for it... Yipeee!! More!

> You are the ignorant one, and again, what has that ftp thread to do with
> posting announcements?

You said something about associating me with uploading images 'on ftp'
[sic]. I simply pointed out that I was not the one to have done any of the
above, and pointed you to someone closer to the (posting) house.

> There is acceptable use regarding educational matters, and personal use. 
> Quoting, as long as given the source and in part, is accepted.  If you feel
> otherwise, feel free to write letters to the publishers.

You're dead wrong. There's something called fair use. Fair use entitles one
to use selected material from a book for PERSONAL use. Most books have
SPECIFIC WARNINGS against reproduction, storage, or distribution in 
ELECTRONIC FORM. In a couple of books' case, we're talking that Mut*u & Co.
have posted the entire book. Is that fair use? Haven't D.Morning's
arguments been enough to (as Mut*u would say) utterly humiliate you yet?

Why do you spend so much energy defending Mut*u & Co, anyway? 

> How about your points regarding announcements?  Have got any?

  +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  | Yes. Postings such as the one that started the thread (IN MY OWN       |
  | HUMBLE OPINION) do not belong there. There's the announce groups,      |
  | there's the biz hierarchy, and there's the non-commercial stuff. If    |
  | you want to see the difference, ZEOS International (for example) has   |
  | people on the net who post VERY BRIEF product announcements on         |
  | comp.hardware.ibm.pc (say) and the full text in biz.newprods or        |
  | biz.zeos (whatever). They don't flood the net (and in particular       |
  | groups that have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the subject) and they   |
  | don't make their announcement so business like. I'd have preferred a   |
  | brief announcement there telling news readers to look in the           |
  | newprods/biz hierarchy for an extended version. Simple enough?         |
  | Everyone else from ALR to Zeos does it. Why couldn't they do it?       |
  +------------------------------------------------------------------------+

> > > I got my own brains and don't need your nurturing.
> > 
> > CLAP-ON You got what? Is that why you found a blatant advertisment
> > posted in mostly unrelated groups "acceptable"? [...]
>
> I have got what you apparently haven't.

If you 'had' any, you wouldn't be posting 350 (and again 354) line messages
answering this kind of material. Think of me as GAV*0, only more refined :-)

> [...] But a Greek person trying to decide what to
> be posted at the Turkish group looks a bit off.  Don't get me wrong, I
> am not implying that you should not.  But if you do the way you do, your
> motivation is obvious. 

Entertainment? To pi$$ you off? symptoms of AMWS? (acute mut*u withdrawal)
This should prove to you beyond any doubt that it has nothing to do with
race/religion. It's personal. Had, say, Besime or Hakan or any other sct
netter responded to the above, I would not have blinked at it and dismissed
it. But, seeing Mustafa Soysal on the dotted line, VOILA! CLAP-ON-CLAP-OFF..

> > > Ah, what challenges you in my postings? As I said, you aren't getting
> > > entertained, you are getting exposed.  Have you noticed yet?
> > 
> > CLAP-ON If I weren't getting entertained, I would not be posting these.
> > Simple. But the CLAPPER-FOR-BRAIN can't think otherwise, can it? CLAP-OFF
> 
> Your preference for the form of entertainment is a statement about you.

But then I enjoy cooking, gardening (best *ing lawn in the *ing subdivision),
woodworking, tinkering with things, etc. Care to share some of your hobbies?
(notice not-too-subtle information extraction (PSAREMA) method)

> > > > > > > Mustafa Soysal
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But still no kute .signature
> > > > 
> > > > > Sorry, I am not here to please you.  Do you think the world should
> > > > > revolve around you?
> > > > 
> > > > Nah, should the world revolve around me I'd have to buy me a suit and tie
> > > > to look good on the evening news. (In Greek "Se doulevw reeeee").
> > > 
> > > So why are you trying to get entertainment so hard? Can't live without
> > > hassles?
> > 
> > CLAP-ON Because I live in a "culturally challenged" part of the United States.
> > (Indianapolis, IN), where "every 'mut*u's' cherished, every 'Cos*r's'
> > appreciated, every 'Soysal's' enjoyed at its best"... CLAP-OFF
> 
> Does that read "I am better"?  Are you arian as well?

Let me get back to you on this. Let me check, bzt turk bzt. YES. Arian [sic].

(it's Aryan, man, Cos*r took out the speller to save disk space). But the chunky/
brown eyes/dark hair/mouse moustache/coke glasses/pale-white-geek-skin variety.

> > > That is a wreck.  Quick, Mr mut*u, he needs it really bad.
> > 
> > CLAP-ON Do you have a fetish for the word 'wreck'? And 'Mr. mut*u?' CLAP-OFF
> 
> It is your statement that you had withdrawal symptoms.  And wreck
> describes you very well.

Man, not only Cos*r took out the spelling checker, but the thesaurus (another
Greek word, envy) as well. What's wrong with these folks? buy more disks!

> > > > (he actually has a cute .signature, but it's made out of non-printable 
> > chars, 
> > > > like \033\011\012\012\012\011\001\001\000\000\000). 
> > > 
> > > So, did you decode them yet?  It might be a secret message.
> > 
> > CLAP-ON Sure. If you take each character and AND it with mut*u's birthday in
> > Julian Date, you get the ascii equivalent. In your case it would read: CLAP-OFF
> 
> So?

Can't you do a simple arithmetic AND? Oh, I forgot, It requires a TRUTH TABLE!
(he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he (c) Hakan Senel 1992)

> >         CLAP-ON ".sig still waiting mut*u's approval". CLAP-OFF
> 
> Really?

Your .signature (or lack thereof) speaks for itself. 

> But see, I was flaming even before elemantary school, and as I mastered the
> game I no longer need to practice, and concentrate on the issues now.

Flame (v): the art and science of irritating, insulting, degrading, and
           aggravating people on international computer networks.

Your postings are rated L-D so far (Lame Duck). Besides, everyone knows that
flaming before high school results in permanent damage. See results in mirror.

> Oh, I see, personal vendetta for screwing your plans.

Of course. Like I said, think of 'Soys*l' as a 'Mut*u' that bites back,
uses no quotes, and provides entertainment for hours at a time. 

> > The real difference between us, Mustafa, is that you (and Cos*r and
> > Mut*u) don't like me just because of where I come from. No matter if I
> 
> You are what you do.  I certainly won't like you for what you are doing,
> and it will have an effect for the ethnic community you are a member of. 
> You are a shame for the Greeks.  I didn't think Sandru was Greek.  But
> you seem to be. 

What a stereotyping <expletive array[1..N]>. So just because one Greek
(aspiring Greek-American RE PAIDI MOU, ME OLA TA XAIMALIA KAI SYNERGA)
is writing various things, all Greeks are bad. (why Sandru anyway?)

Mustafa, I have flamed the Greeks (on real issues) when you were still in
diapers. Back in 1984-85 I was a part of the famous 'what do we need
computers in Greece with 20% unemployment for' debate and received more
hate mail than mut*u will in 20 years. I have rejected many parts of what
you would consider basic staples in "Greek Culture" (such as soccer,
bouzouki music (another influence of the Ottomans (TM), politics) in favor
of basketball, Pink Floyd, and meritocracy. And I've been flamed even worse
for that. I'm an equal opportunity flamer, not a stereotyper ("ALL XXX are
YYY"). Want to bet that I'll get more flames from Greeks for "bouzouki"??

> Sipa is not my words, you tried to impose it on my name by inserting it
> just before my signature in your text.  You aren't as smart as you
> think.  Take a test.  (besides, I wrote SIpa, and it does not mean
> infidel, you must be dreaming, drunk, etc..)

Pardon me, I don't even know (or care) what Sipa or SIpa (why, wow, 
they use upper and lower case in the same word :-), actually a friend
at sct explained how it works real well with a spectacular example) means. 

> I had one good Greek friend at the university (there were others too,
> but they weren't good friends), but he seemed to be worried by my
> ethnicity by dictation of his fellows all the time.  He did not have a
> problem, but his Greek friends did.  The friendship was doomed to fail
> under those conditions in the long term.

See. When we put down the flamethrowers we can even be pals. If I were to
judge you based on the poll I read that Greece is the second most hated
country in Turkiye, based on your stereotyping I wouldn't give you the 
time of day. ("ALL Turks HATE Greeks, I'm Greek, He's Turk, Hate him!").
Not so. Overdosing on ethnic pride (Parthenons, Sultans, Empires, etc)
is what has kept our countries behind for years. Does it have to go on?

> > college were Moslems (one from Sarajevo, another from Lebanon, one from
> > Erythria/Ethiopia). I can count among my friends just about every
> > nationality (except "Macedonians" :-)).  That's because I get to like or
> > dislike people for what they are, not  where they're from or which
> > religion they follow. I realize that Greece, by its virtue (?) of being
> 
> So how come Turks and Macedonians don't enjoy the privilege? (This
> relates to the beginning of this article.) 

Who says they don't? "Macedonians" was just a joke, man. And a very good 
friend of mine (with whom we graduated together, partied together, and
who did some mean Fourier Transforms), was from Turkiye at USL. The name's
Firat Ertem, I even spent one Christmas drinking Turkish OUZO (yea!) with
Firat & Co. I think he's back in Turkiye now. Indianapolis is not exactly
a hotbed of Turk (or Greek or any other nationality) ethnics. At work 
there are 2.5 Greeks (2 Greeks, one 1/2 Greek), 1 Turkish woman. Out of
a huge number of engineers. If I didn't like <nationality>, I'd be on
the net on soc.culture.<nationality> full time flaming them. I'm not.

[Incidentally if anyone knows what happened to Firat Ertem (class of 1984,
Univ. Southwestern Louisiana, B.Sc. Computer Science) please let me know]

> You are judged by your actions Spiros Triantafyllopoulos.  And they
> don't speak highly of you.  You can tell me all you want, but I will
> look at what you do.

If you only look at the flames, your eyes will get tired and you'll start
seeing things. If you look at the overall picture, you will see something
better. If I were to judge individuals based on SELECTED net behaviour, or
even (as you did) judge entire nationalities based on net behaviour,  (of
an individual or two) things would be a lot different.

Mustafa, I'm no amateur in this. Try to understand that net behaviour is
not an indicator of real personality, except in rare cases. Can you see
someone driving like a jerk and make conclusions about his/her personality?
Just like driving personality, Usenet personality is hardly a predictor of
real personality. 

Spiros

-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                  by403@cleveland.freenet.edu
OUZO POWER                                 [Not Really In Cleveland]
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history