HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Pornography and values
Date: 5 Jan 1993 21:12:32 GMT
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan04.042102.5557@microsoft.com> jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:
>FYI,  In my experience, the plain-jane Harlequin line has kissing only
>(either without much description or without much body language)
>and an occasional oblique reference to anything beyond that (like
>"climbing that special stairway" in 1 book out of 8). Sex, if it
>happens at all, happens once or twice at the end of the book.

     I think the analogy that most people make between Playboy
and Harlequins is that they promote similar stereotypes, not
that they are similarly sexual.

     The Harlequins I've read (Mills & Boon books, for you
Brits) are all about an emotion-free, strong man, powerful in
some way, who is so attracted to the woman that by the end of
the book he has asked her to marry him (or some such thing).
This is just the flip side of the stereotyped male fantasy of
the beautiful, sexy woman who is so attracted to the man that
she wants to have uncommitted sex with him.

     The fantasies are different, but complementary.  They both
are based on the exchange of protection (or "commitment") for
sex, which is the basis of traditional relationships.  They both
represent the best thing that each sex can dream of getting out
of such a relationship.

--Jamie.
  jamie@cs.sfu.ca
"The Tao's net encompasses the whole universe."  - tao te ching


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Xref: sparky soc.feminism:3169 news.answers:5071
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men crossing the street at night to avo
Date: 6 Jan 1993 21:36:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Distribution: world
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In article <1ievn7INNr99@meaddata.meaddata.com> andyw@meaddata.COM writes:
>In article 1id7j9INNcv8@agate.berkeley.edu, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

[deleted]

>Sounds like you might benefit from a self defense class... it might
>improve your confidence and ability when in situations where you need
>to be careful.

You are out of line in suggesting any form of "therapy" for me because I
take issue with what you say.  I am quite physically fit and if I
experienced a confidence problem, I would not have posted as forcefully
as I did.

I am already aware of the typical pointers -- look up, walk quickly,
walk forcefully, and carry soemthing nice and big, like an umbrella or a
big fat wrench, which I do.  I have a slight advantage here, though,
since I am tall and athletic-looking (notice I didn't say I was athletic
;-)), so I don't get as much trouble.  

Regards,
Janis C.

P.S.: I hope you saw the qualifier I added in my last post about only
having two responses, that you were obviously capable of more.  I simply
took issue with the fact that you seemed to say, "Jeez, when we are rude
they don't like it and when we make remarks about their bodies, they
don't like it.  What do women want?"  And, besides, if this entire
discussion is here for us to come to some sort of informal conclusion
about how we can make each other feel more at ease, and many women (at
least it seems as if there are many women in agreement with me) 
wouldn't mind if men crossed the street or stayed a certain
distance away, then why do you say, "Well, I won't do that."  Aren't we
trying to find out how to put each other at ease?   


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From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Pornography a *male* interest
Date: 5 Jan 1993 17:12:38 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: world
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In article <1iaft3INNipo@agate.berkeley.edu> lisad@zoo.toronto.edu writes:
>In article 38029@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu, Russel (turpin@cs.utexas.EDU)
>writes
>> That depends on how one draws the categories. Should one count
>>Harlequin romances as pornographic? I think so.
>
>I would have to disagree.  Although its been several (maybe 8) years
>since I read a Harlequin, they very rarely dealt with *pornographic*
>subjects.  My perception of Harlequins is that they are *love* 
>novels are usually deal with the heroine's emotions, not the 
>specifics of her body.


	And the macho, hard-bodied hero's utter two-dimensional
	personality.


>Another point that may be lost here is that pornography (IMHO) 
>is of a degrading nature.  I don't believe that Harlequin's 
>fall into this category either.


	Please define "degrading" in reference to pornography.

	Let's see.  Pornography, basically, shows good looking women
	who want and enjoy sex, and a variety of sexual activities.

	Harlequins show men as laborers or studs whose sole purpose
	in life is to act the brave, flawed hero part and fufil their
	(much superior) lover's needs. 

	Huh.  Degrading.


-- 
      Blaming "society" for your problems is like blaming clouds for rain.
 ---  boycott == coercion == censorship == closed mindedness == cowardice  ---
	      "Psalms 23:1  The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want."  
		Shepherds are for sheep.   -----      Pain teaches.


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From: flaps@dgp.toronto.EDU (Alan J Rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Mythopoetic ritual (a possibly Very Stupid topic)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:28:03 GMT

mfterman@phoenix.princeton.EDU writes:
>Women have a very visible transition from child to adult. Men lack
>that sort of event, and need to create something to mark that sort of
>change.

I'm sorry, I'm reasonably well-versed in urogenital matters and I
simply cannot tell what you are referring to when you refer to women's
visible transition, assuming you mean that it's something more
ubiquitous or more visible than men's facial hair and broader
shoulders, or more noticeable than a deepening of the voice, not to
mention that many men have balding, other body hair, etc...

(that's assuming you're talking about people clothed in the Western
tradition..  otherwise we may be talking about pubic hair and all
sorts of other things that change in men too...)

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From: cortese@skid.ps.UCI.EDU (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Pornography and values
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:44:45 GMT

In article <1hve55INNhe1@im4u.cs.utexas.edu> turpin@cs.utexas.EDU (Russell Turpin) writes:
>-*----
>In article <38029@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> djohns@elm.circa.ufl.EDU ("David A. Johns") writes:
>> One interesting aspect of this debate about pornography is that
>> *interest* in pornography, in our society, at least, is primarily
>> male. ...
>
>That depends on now one draws the categories.  Should one count
>Harlequin romances as pornographic?  I think so.  If one does
>this, then one recognizes that women have as much interest in
>titillating media, i.e., pornography, as men.

I may have posted this idea before, BUT . . .

I at least think that that Harlequin crap is AS DAMAGING to
relationships between men are women as porn is.  Perhaps not JUST the
romance novels, bu tthe whole fantasy they support -- the Prince
Charming fantasy.  It's kind of the obverse of the June Cleaver/Traci
Lords fantasy for men.

Men read porn, and "learn" about women through it.  They start dating
and find out that women ain't that way.  They think, "What's wrong
with this frigid girlfriend I'm stuck with?"

Women read romance garbage, and "learn" about men and marriage through
it.  They get married, thinking thanks to the fairy tale trash, that
all their problems are over the man will take care of them now they
can live vicariously through their husbands and their kids it's all
happily ever after.  Then, they find out that this fallible human
being they married is sometimes just as perplexed by life's problems
as she is, and they think, "What's wrong with this doofus I'm stuck
with?"

As far as I'm concerned, although some porn may be more *physically*
damaging to women, men are also damaged and made to feel terribly
inadequate through having to live their own lives AND their wives'
lives as well.  We are both swallowing a line of shit about each
other.

Regards,
Janis C.

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From: turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Pornography a *male* interest
Date: 5 Jan 1993 17:18:58 GMT
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Summary: Curiouser and curiouser.
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

-*----
I wrote:
>> That depends on how one draws the categories. Should one count
>> Harlequin romances as pornographic? I think so.

In article <1iaft3INNipo@agate.berkeley.edu> lisad@zoo.toronto.edu writes:
> I would have to disagree.  Although its been several (maybe 8) years
> since I read a Harlequin, they very rarely dealt with *pornographic*
> subjects.  My perception of Harlequins is that they are *love* 
> novels are usually deal with the heroine's emotions, not the 
> specifics of her body.

What about the hero's body?  Is the hero in a Harlequin romance
ever short, pudgy, and bald?

More seriously, there is many a bondage story that deals with S&M
action and themes without much focus on the participants' bodies.
Are they therefore not pornographic?  To me, defining pornography
by its focus on women's bodies is too narrow a definition.  I
think one gets a better sense of what is going on by defining it
as literature or visual media that has sexual arousal as a
primary purpose.  Does the Harlequin audience get hot from 
reading this literature?

> Another point that may be lost here is that pornography (IMHO) 
> is of a degrading nature. ...

Certainly all pornography "is of a degrading nature" if one
defines it that way.  

> ... I don't believe that Harlequin's fall into this category either.

As other posters here have noted, Harlequin romances draw a
particular notion of how relationships are suppose to work 
that many people find degrading.  

Russell


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From: mara@panix.COM (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: Women's and men's safety
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: (getting there)
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:52:40 GMT

andyw@meaddata.COM mentioned whitewater rafting and skydiving to
contrast the attitudes of men and of women toward dangerous
activities.  His comments got a lot of reaction.

pol253b@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au (Ms D Alexander) writes:
   >>> I'm not sure that making a comparison between the fear of
   >>> injury from sporting activities, and the fear of injury which
   >>> results from acts of violence is legitimate.  The two are
   >>> conceptually miles apart.  ...

turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) writes:
  >>I would have said they were only feet apart.  That is, the two
  >>risks have significant commonalities in my mind.  But this may be
  >>a male thing.  [ ... ]

tittle@alexandre-dumas.ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:
 >You don't see a huge difference between choice and coercion?

 >(I'm NOT slamming you; this is how I would have characterized the
 >difference between the two sets of risk and I find it surprising
 >that you don't (appear to) focus on that difference at all.)

I didn't focus on it either (which makes me think it's not
necessarily a male thing).  It's not that I don't see the
difference-- and I thought that Janis made an excellent point about
the difference between choosing to participate in a sport and
retrieving her car across a dark parking lot.  (At least, I think it
was Janis.)

But I do believe that there is interesting material to consider in
the differences between how we (as men or as women) are taught to
consider danger.  I think that the process that discourages a woman
from taking up the sport of bungee jumping is connected to the
process of learning and not-learning that make her particularly
vulnerable in the dark parking lot.  (Part of that vulnerability, of
course, is the expectation on the part of an attacker that she will
not know how to handle herself.)

I don't think that this is the whole issue, of course.  I live
with a man who is much more timid than I am about all sorts of
recreational dangers, and who is much less timid than I about being
alone on the streets of NYC after dark.

--

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.


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Newsgroups: soc.college
From: jfs0030@ultb.isc.rit.edu (J.F. Stolberg)
Subject: need help with an address.
Originator: jfs0030@ultb
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:20:39 GMT


Hello, 
	I need some help in finding an address.  Does anybody know the
address for Oxford University, England.  Specifically the engineering
science department.  I already have a friend's username, but am unsure
on the address.  If you could e-mail me, that would be great.  Thanx

- Flip -
From: axeman@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (Samir Chopra)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Need Info about Brooklyn housing from NYC grad types
Date: 5 Jan 93 20:00:00 GMT
Distribution: ny
Organization: AT&T

I hope to be able attend the CUNY graduate center full time this
coming fall and am seriously considering living in Brooklyn while
doing so. I would appreciate any information on the following:

Which areas/sections of Brooklyn are worth looking into in terms
of the following factors:

a) safety 
b) cost (maybe about $300-400 for a room per month)
c) proximity to subway. I plan to take the subway to school (42nd street).

Obviously, I would love to hear from any CUNY students themselves! Thanks
very much. Please E_mail if possible as I don't read this newsgroup very
often.

take care,

Samir
-- 
"You guys are gonna smoke in the other room, the smoke will come drifting in
here..it'll look like rose stems, but there's tiny nooses hanging from them.."
Support the Freedom of Choice Act | 11/3/92: Restoration of Democracy Day
From: anon.441@pax.tpa.com.au
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: None supplied
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:24:32 GMT
Reply-To: anon.441@pax.tpa.com.au
Organization: PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide,South Australia) - Anonymous Service
NNTP-Posting-Host: flash.pax.tpa.com.au


Some time ago a guy posted a message asking for descriptions 
of hazing incidents.  He was convinced that many of them were 
of a sexual nature--some even of a homosexual nature, 
parading the pledges around naked and the like.  I never saw 
any answers and am interested in the subject myself.  Since 
then, other posts concerning military hazing, etc have 
appeared.  I can understand that no one would want to libel 
their fraternity but surely some readers of this group have 
heard of hazing or initiations by others.  Please post or email 
me any you have heard of.  If there is enough interest, I'll 
summarize and post to the net after removing your name.

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From: anon.410@pax.tpa.com.au
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Fraternity Popularity
Date: 7 Jan 1993 15:09:59 +1030
Organization: PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide,South Australia) - Anonymous Service
Reply-To: anon.410@pax.tpa.com.au
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Newsgroups: soc.college
From: osterber@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Osterberg)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Oberlin addresses
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:00:46 GMT

Addresses for students at Oberlin college are in the form:

Sxxnnnn@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu

where xx are first and last initials and nnnn is a number, which I don't
know how it is derived. 

You can't finger to Oberlin with a name to match, but you can do

finger @ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
to get a list of people logged on. You might try sending to
postmaster@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
-Rick
From: hullsa@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: BREAK IN TUCSON!!!!!!!!
Date: 12 Jan 93 15:15:23 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire

For spring break two good friends and I will be driving to Tucson, Arizona from 
Eau Claire, Wisconsin and we were wondering if there are any HOT spots between
here and there that we could visit..  Also is there anything SUPER exciting to
do in Tucson, that is if you are not 21.. The people we will be staying with
are not 21 and neither am I, but my two friends are.. 
Any replies would be greatly appreciated.  We are not just looking for social
fun things, cultural and intellectual things would be appreciatecd too.  
thank you for your time


Goofy
email address is hullsa@cnsvax.uwec.edu
From: caina@merrimack.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Colleges, hazing and the military.
Date: 5 Jan 93 12:04:31 GMT
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA

In article <1993Jan3.214314.2837@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>, naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu (Randolph J. Finder) writes:
> With all of the state laws against hazing, I would be interested to see if
> these have been applied to the US military in any way. I see three
> possibilities for problems.
> 
> 1) ROTC on campus: belong to an organization that hazes even if not on
> 	campus (summer training ??)
> 
> 2) The military academies(sp?): Not only West Point, Annapolis and
> 	USAFA, but the private military academies as well.
> 
> 3) Military training sites like Parris Island.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that this be used to kick ROTC off campus, but I wish
> there were a consistent standard between the military( and the military
> academies) and collecge fraternities.
> 
> -- 
> (naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu)	  | Leadership,Friendship, and Service
> (vri_rjfin@dmis.ha.osd.mil)	  |          Alpha Phi Omega
> "The service we render to others  | National (Co-ed) Service Fraternity
>  is the rent we pay for our room on earth" - Sir Wilfred Grenfell
Xref: sparky soc.college:5910 soc.college.grad:2250 soc.college.gradinfo:1833
From: shajid@phenyl.phr.utexas.edu (Shajid A. Mohammed)
Newsgroups: soc.college,soc.college.grad,soc.college.gradinfo
Subject: Tips for GMAT preparation
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:14:58 GMT
Followup-To: soc.college
Organization: Univ of Texas at Austin

Hi,

Does anybody have any tips on how to best prepare for the GMAT?
I would appreciate it if you could mail me.

Thanks

Shajid 
-- 
===============================================================================
Shajid A. Mohammed		       E-mail:     shajid@methyl.phr.utexas.edu
Manufacturing Systems Engineering		   bobby@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
University of Texas at Austin	       Voice mail: Home:   (512) 454 6835
						   Office: (512) 471 4809	
===============================================================================
From: caina@merrimack.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Colleges, hazing and the military.
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:43:02 GMT
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA

In article <1993Jan3.214314.2837@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>, naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu (Randolph J. Finder) writes:

   O.K., let's try this again!
> With all of the state laws against hazing, I would be interested to see if
> these have been applied to the US military in any way. I see three
> possibilities for problems.
> 

> 1) ROTC on campus: belong to an organization that hazes even if not on
> 	campus (summer training ??)

   How can you call "summer training" hazing?  If anything, I would call
"summer training" on the job training.  Believe me, I would rather have
officers who are properly trained (physically and mentally) than those
who are so-so because of anti-hazing laws.
> 

> 2) The military academies(sp?): Not only West Point, Annapolis and
> 	USAFA, but the private military academies as well.
> 

   

> 3) Military training sites like Parris Island.
> 
   Again, these recruits are being trained for war.  Nothing more, nothing
less.  To establish anti-hazing laws in boot camps would create a
situation where the military would be useless.

> I'm not suggesting that this be used to kick ROTC off campus, but I wish
> there were a consistent standard between the military( and the military
> academies) and collecge fraternities.

   How so?
> 
> -- 
> (naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu)	  | Leadership,Friendship, and Service
> (vri_rjfin@dmis.ha.osd.mil)	  |          Alpha Phi Omega
> "The service we render to others  | National (Co-ed) Service Fraternity
>  is the rent we pay for our room on earth" - Sir Wilfred Grenfell


Alex Cain
caina@merrimack.edu
--
Faugn Au Ballagh!---Battle Cry of the Irish Brigade during the Civil War
		    (translation:Clear the way!)