HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Pleasure from travelling, an example of its baselessness
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:30:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.211654.8909
Organization: ----

abulsari@aton.abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT) writes:
>Now that I feel that pleasure is a figment of the mind, arising
>out of conditioning, and a baseless concept, we look at one
>example which I studied in February 1992 in some detail while
>travelling. I have travelled quite often in the last two years
>and people consider travelling as pleasant. It is not always so
>for me. So I analysed the possible reasons for the pleasure
>coming from travelling.

Pewrhaps I am misinterpreting you, but you seem to be saying that because
you do not enjoy travelling, other people cannot really enjoy it either,
and their claims to the contrary must be baseless self-deception.  Frankly,
I find this attitude obnoxious.

>Two homework exercises for me and any other takers :

>1, Why do we cheat our mind ?

I'm glad you included yourself in the persons for whom this is intended.
I look forward to your answer to the exercise.

>2, Why does eating provide pleasure ?

How should I know?  I didn't design this body.  I don't see anything
baseless about the pleasure, though.

--                                ____
Richard Kennaway                  \ _/__    School of Information Systems
Internet:  jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk       \X  /    University of East Anglia
uucp:  ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk      \/     Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
From: mistryg@oakhill.sps.mot.com (G. Mistry)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: 4 Noble Truths
Date: 4 Jan 1993 13:02:30 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu


In article <47420@ogicse.ogi.edu> kris@bsg8.Corp.Sun.COM (Kris Skrinak)  
writes:
> 
> I've got a problem with the 4 Noble Truths.
> 
> I think that 'suffering' as a basis of spirituality has no relevance in
> Western culture.
> 
> I am not suffering. I am wealthy, healthy, in touch with my
> surroundings and those around me. Further, I am happy and optimistic.
> 
> I believe and espouse non-dualistic teachings. But avoiding or ending
> suffering has nothing at all to do with it.
> 
> Can someone out there tell me what role 'suffering' plays in such a
> life?
> 
> -Kris

 You are supposed to learn from suffering. For instance, would you put your
hand in fire? Of course not, you have learned to associate certain pain with
that action. If you examine your past actions you will find that there are
some you avoid and will avoid, because of the unpleasantness associated with
those actions.
 In a way there are 4 types of sufferings: 1) physical, mental, emotional and
spiritual. We know and understand physical sufferings. Mental suffering are
like after use of drugs, liquor, one suffers from proper mental function, lack
of concentration, clear thinking, coordination, etc. Some mental suffering
overlaps emotional suffering. Feeling of depression, anxiety, unworthyness, etc.
are signs of emotional suffering. 
 The purpose of all these sufferings is to determine the cause of these
sufferings and what can be done to avoid them. It is very difficult to find
enlightenment if you are trapped within these sufferings. Once you overcome the
first three sufferings, you will begin to understand the spiritual suffering
and how can overcome that too.

Regards,
G. D. Mistry

email: mistryg@nexxus.sps.mot.com

 The ideas expressed here are my own and not of Motorola.
From: asanders@adobe.com (Alan Sanders)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 5 Jan 1993 16:23:56 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

| ...don't you agree that most modern-day Christians see Jesus 
| as the product of an "immaculate conception", the Son of God 
| from day one? 
		  -Bill Carter

Some people see the "immaculate conception" story as a metaphor
for the transformation of the human into the divine. Some people
see the Bible as a book of hidden knowledge that could not be
openly transmitted during Biblical times. Effective metaphors
may have a number of valid interpretations in addition to their
literal meanings. For example, the word *bread* in the Bible
can be understood as *knowledge*, and gives a new meaning to
many Biblical passages. It may be fair to say that the commonly-
accepted understanding of *any* modern-day religion fails to
embrace the deepest knowledge to be found in that religion.
Surely, if Truth were for *everyone*, the world would be a far,
far better place than it is. There is certainly no shortage of
religion, nor of followers of religions!

| ...contrast with Buddhism, where Siddhartha Guatama is supposed 
| to have been a plain old ordinary guy like you and me.

A wealthy prince who renounces *everything* to go out into the
wilderness in search of Truth is hardly an "ordinary guy"!

						-Alan
From: fstawit@convx1.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Pleasure from travelling, an example of its baselessness
Date: 10 Jan 93 02:26:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.210046.7798
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center


In article <1injkgINNojp@gap.caltech.edu> abulsari@aton.abo.fi 
(Abhay Bulsari VT) writes:
>.................
>1, Why do we cheat our mind ?
>
I think our mind cheat us. If buddha's Dependent Origination Theory
(Patijasamupada -- some call it Conditioned Genesis.)
is of any validity then pleasure is conditioned by as well as 
conditioning other inter-related phenomena in a chain of cause and
effect which also gives rise to the notion of 'me' and 'mine'.

>2, Why does eating provide pleasure ?
>
Same as above. Buddhadasa (again :) used to suggest that when we think
we are eating the most delicious food, try spitting the food onto
the palm of our hands and look at its ugliness. Now, try re-swallow
the food and the taste of the food will change dramatically provided
that you don't throw up prematurely. 

So, the pleasure of eating is not just the taste of it. It's conditioned
by various sense organs, not just the tounge. I would like to ask
anyone to try to eat your favorite dish in a total darkness, and i bet
it'll not taste as delicious as eating in a well lit area.
Also, various people don't agree on what is delicious; it depends
on their stored conciousness of what deliciousness is.

To minimize the attachment to the pleasure of eating, many forest monks
in Thailand mix all the various foods and desserts together in their
alms bolws before partaking.

-tawit
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You should eat your food with the mentality of a mother who eats her
dead child's flesh in the middle of a desert.
		   -- Attribute to the Buddha. (By Buddhadasa)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: asanders@adobe.com (Alan Sanders)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:28:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.212430.10140
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

| So is there something wrong with the people or with the religions?

					   -Bill Carter

Well, you could say that there's something wrong with the people.
What Gautama Buddha had that most people evidently do not have
was an unshakable aim to succeed. People are very easily side-
tracked by worldly desires which, while not "bad" in themselves,
may nevertheless dilute efforts toward the One Goal.

Or, you could say that there's something wrong with religion.
Some people believe that religions are really designed to keep
people asleep rather than to wake them up.

But, in the grand scheme of things, maybe there's nothing wrong with 
people or with religions. Maybe it's simply not possible for "all the 
people" to wake up. Maybe humanity is like a bag of rice: a few grains
can spill out now and then; but if all the grains spill out of the
bag, there's no more bag of rice! Maybe true knowledge is like a
watering hole, with room for only so many people to gather around
at any one time (in history). Why is it that one person has a place 
at the trough and another doesn't? I do not know.

| ...he [Gautama Buddha] is not said to have been influenced 
| by anything supernatural or born with any special advantage 
| that the ordinary man does not have. I think this is pretty neat.

Me, too. But I'd say that Gautama had no special advantage that
ordinary people do not *potentially* have. People are not created
equal. Why is one man born a Mozart while another is born a derelict? 
Once again, I do not know. All I know is that, when I see a fallen 
angel lying in the street, I cannot help thinking, "There but for 
the grace of God go I."
			   -Alan
From: ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Indian basil in religious practices?
Keywords: basil, ocimum sanctum, india
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:58:30 GMT
Organization: Indiana University
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

In article <1ihtqlINNg28@gap.caltech.edu> ceci@lysator.liu.se (Cecilia Henningsson) writes:
>Today I received a seed catalogue from Impecta, the best stocked seed
>company in the Nordic countries. One of the novelties was seed for
>something called _Indian_basil_. Here is the entry, translated by me:
>
>	Indian basil, _Ocimum_sanctum_ (annual) Unusual species with
>	strong, sweet fragrance and freely flowering. Excellent as a
>	fine spice. Also has medical and religious uses.  11,50 SEK
>
>I am primarily interested in what kind of religious practices
>_Ocimum_sanctum_ is used for, and secondarily in how it could be used
>in cooking, and its medical usage.

>I also wonder about the common name assigned to the plant. What is the
>Indian common name (as opposed to the systematic name -
>_Ocimum_sanctum_) and what would it be if translated into English?
>_Ocimum_ is the basil family, so the common name doesn't seem too
>far-fetched.

>(Cooking and medical responses obviously should be in e-mail, as )
>(they don't belong in soc.religion.eastern.  )
>
>--Ceci
>=====ceci@lysator.liu.se===========================================
>Linkoeping, Sweden gets just short of 500 mm precipitation a year.
>====================================================================


 The plant Ocimum Sanctum is commonly known as the Tulasi plant, the 
 sacred plant of the Hindus. The leaves and buds of Tulasi are said to be  
 extremely dear to the God Krishna extolled in Indian philosophical and
 mythological treatises. For this reason, worshippers of Krishna or 
 Vishnu offer Tulasi leaves to Krishna during the 'puja' (worship). 
 The leaves are also used in a wide variety of religious rituals, too
 numerous to mention here.  

 The leaves of Tulasi are of great medicinal value. Some of their uses are
 as an antiseptic for treating wounds, as an antidote for fever, and as
 a cure for sore throat and  ear ache. My knowldge on the medicinal 
 properties of Tulasi, however,  is very limited and you would do well to
 consult the Materia Medica or a book on 'Ayurveda', the science of 
 Indian Medicine.  

 Anand
 ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: zitsky+@cs.cmu.edu (Mark Ryan Miller)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Buddhism in Western PA???
Date: 5 Jan 1993 09:28:35 -0800
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

Does anyone know of any buddhist groups (preferably Theravada) in
the Pittsburgh area.  I've consider myself a buddhist for about 2
years now, but really need a mentor.  any suggestions?

--Mark
From: Roger Adams <RADAMS@cerritos.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: What is pleasure, fun, joy ?
Date: 4 Jan 1993 19:26:14 -0800
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

In article <47842@ogicse.ogi.edu>, 
abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT) writes:

> In article <1hg750INNa89@sandman.caltech.edu> Roger Adams <RADAMS@cerritos.edu> writes:
>>In article <47569@ogicse.ogi.edu>, 
> 
>>If you are depressed or sad and come into the presence of someone who is
>>joyful, you immediately cheer up, don't you? Being joyful then uplifts others
>>and when it is unconditional, it is unselfish and of service to others by
>>your very presence. So the mind simply decides (for most) whether or not to 
>>allow the joy within us to manifest, depending on whether or not a desire is
>>fulfilled - based on conditioning which is varies from person to person.
> 
> Perhaps Paramhansa  Yogananda did  not state  clearly enough  that the
> world  is  an illusion  (Maya),  but  this  is  what  I am  trying  to
> understand. I  think many of  our  concepts  are  hollow  and lead  to
> illusions.
> 
> Abhay

I see no contradiction in my quote above and your response about the world
being an illusion. We seem to have another semantical problem in which  the
word "joy" is being used by you to mean temporal happiness and I was using the
same word in the context of the infinite bliss of the soul (Self, Atman) which
is an individualized expression of God (Self, Paratman) - like a wave in the 
ocean. This infinite bliss is not dependent on any external stimulus or lack
of stimulus, it is unconditional, always present, but hidden in most people
due to avidya. All concepts can only point to Truth and can definitely be
misunderstood. Another problem with concepts is that many are satisfied with
the concepts themselves so that they feel no need to realize directly instead 
of imagining that they know through the mind and ego-consciousness.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          293 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gst@BU.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:39:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.212219.9841
Organization: ----

In <1id8qsINNdqk@gap.caltech.edu> asanders@adobe.com (Alan Sanders) writes:

> | ...don't you agree that most modern-day Christians see Jesus 
> | as the product of an "immaculate conception", the Son of God 
> | from day one? 
> 		  -Bill Carter

> Some people see the "immaculate conception" story as a metaphor...

Let's get our terminology straight, folks.  In Catholic theology, which
is where this term arises, "immaculate conception" refers to Mary, the
mother of Jesus, having come into the world without any blemish of
ordinary human existence.  She was without any fault or sinfulness,
which was important in her role in bearing the Christ child.  The term
used to denote the biological origin of Jesus is "virgin birth."

Gary
From: abulsari@aton.abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Pleasure from travelling, an example of its baselessness
Date: 9 Jan 1993 14:29:36 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

Now that I feel that pleasure is a figment of the mind, arising 
out of conditioning, and a baseless concept, we look at one
example which I studied in February 1992 in some detail while
travelling. I have travelled quite often in the last two years
and people consider travelling as pleasant. It is not always so
for me. So I analysed the possible reasons for the pleasure
coming from travelling.

What exactly does one enjoy in travelling ?

When asked, I got answers like "landscapes", "just being
there", "the travelling part (being in the plane, bus, train)", etc.
Really ? 

My answers are more concrete, but they show a good degree of 
baselessness of the concept of pleasure. Pleasure is a
comfortable illusion.

Eating, drinking and other sources of physical pleasure account for
a major part of the pleasure of travelling (70 to 100 %).
Running away from the reality of everyday work adds to it if your
work is not enjoyable. (Yes, joy is also baseless.)
The rest could be sight seeing (Tell me what is so pleasant in seeing
a monument. Seeing some beautiful natural scenery is more difficult to
count as baseless pleasure.), feeling great about being in some remote/
exotic/important place, and a small fraction, of being on a plane or
a train. 

People go to places where there is hardly any  sight seeing to be done,
yet feel great about their trip. The pleasure only results from
cheating your mind. 

I will be glad to be corrected.

Two homework exercises for me and any other takers : 

1, Why do we cheat our mind ?

2, Why does eating provide pleasure ?


With regards,

Abhay
From: abulsari@aton.abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 9 Jan 1993 14:17:38 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

To soc.religion.eastern :

In article <1ihtg7INNfqj@gap.caltech.edu> Sridhar writes:
>
>the Exalted One. His status changed externally in his own lifetime.
>He himself spoke about a Tathagatha, a fully Enlightened being arising
>in the world. A "Buddha" is a special category of being - when he

I have tried to ask this earlier as well, but I still don't
have an answer. What is full enlightenment ? I feel that
enlightenment is a matter of degrees and types. I can't 
understand what the absolute enlightenment is.

Abhay
From: Seth.Morris@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Seth Morris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Collecting Relaxation/Concentration/Brain exercises
Summary: I am looking for exercises on relaxation and brain use.
Keywords: relaxation, autogenics, yoga, exercise,
Date: 10 Jan 93 12:11:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.210846.8185
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service


 I am compiling a collection of exercises for relaxation, concentration, 
memory, perception, creativity, etc. My material covers a wide range of
matter, and I am looking for more. 

 I posted a lengthy request to several groups and someone suggested I ask
these two (rec.martial-arts and soc.religion.eastern). If this is off-charter,
I apologise.

 My requets is for comments, suggestions, advice, caveats, and especially
exercises and sources relating to relaxations, affirmation, visualization
(which I prefer to call "virtualization" unles the focus is on visual stimuli)
and other Intelligence Increase components of the SMIILE formula.

 My material currently reflects my bias towards the Leary/Wilson/Hyatt/Falcon
Press/Alli school of thought, although I would appreciate material from any
source.

 I mark the exercises as working Visualization Technique, Memory, 
Concentration, "Multitasking" (the mental aptitude 
for doing more than one thing at once), Perception, Self-Awareness/Emotion, 
Set-Breaking/Dis-associating,Association-Making/Imprinting (learning how to
learn), Creativity, and Somatic Control (currently, this relates to breathing,
but I'm open).

 My sources range from _Superlearning_ by Ostrander and Schroeder to _Angel
Tech_ by Alli to _Psychological Exercises and Essays_ by Orage.

 I'm always looking for more.

 I am especially interested in the exercises from Raja Yoga I have, and would
like pointers to more information.

 I would appreciate any contact by mail (preferred) and will continue to
read these groups.

 Thank you.

 Seth Morris (seth.morris@launchpad.unc.edu)

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Being natural
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:25:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.212027.9537
Organization: ----

Hi,

	First, my thanks go to those who pointed out that I used the term
"be natural" too frivilously.

	Next, this brings up the problem of "is nature good or bad ?" - 
probably one of those age-old-never-to-be-resolved-mystery. I agree with most
of what is said but there are some serious questions which beakons ...

	1. Is "being natural" achievable without any "control" ? 

	2. Is nature good ? (Rephrasable as : "Is God good ?") In fact, so
	much so that one SHOULD be "with it" ?

	3. Who is this being that is "being natural" ? Is this being itself
	ever "natural" ? Is there ever such a thing as a "natural" thought,
	action or speech ?

	4. Who, if not nature, created the "artifical civilization" ? Why
	was it necessary ? Is it still necessary ? 

Just pondering aloud ... I won't attempt guesses at this point. Anyway, I would
like to respond to some of the postings.

Lorenzo writes ...
>But in another way of thinking about this phrase, what is natural is
>what is beneath this crust of civilization that we have picked up, the
>desires repressed because society's teaching, which thus grow all out
>of proportion and become toxic, the mechanized responses to everyday
>situations, the blind acceptance of the way our society and our
>parents have taught us we should be. 

Refer to question 4. This actually opens up the whole discussion of "is there
such a thing as a Buddha-nature".

>In this way of thinking, our appearance in this world has been the
>means by which we have developed an unnatural approach, and the goal
>of some spiritual practices is to work past this crust to the natural
>self. In this sense, then indeed, 'being natural is being with God'.

But ANYTHING that happens is "natural" ! 

Alan writes ...
>We cannot
>become "someone else". Either we become what we essentially are, 
>or we die unactualized.

Yes and no. Being "someone else" is but "being ourselves". Everyone of us
wear "masks" - what is it that is "essentially ourself" ? (Sounds like a
koan ;-) Say I am a "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" type of a person. Isn't being
a schzo being "myself" ? The rational as well as the irrational are integral
parts of me. Which is the "true self" ? 

Marc writes ...
>The hand that does not try to grasp itself moves freely.

... it is of course moved by a will that had conquered the desire to grasp
itself ;-)

Sorry if I sounded rude. I am merely trying to start something meaningful
here. Hope it will work.

with Metta,

W.F. Wong.