From: ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie
Subject: Re: JESUS HAS DIED - The Quran - Part I.
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:46:04 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In soc.religion.islam you write:
>Part I:                        PROPHET JESUS HAS DIED:  THE QURAN
>*****************************************************************

The title "Jesus (pbuh) has died" gave me a shock. I like him and
respect him and I would like to condole his relatives, if you don't mind
sending me their address. When I read further I found four messages to
prove that he died. I couldn't find what is the objective of spreading
the news about his death, and I could't find what is the practical
difference between being dead or being away from the earth since about 
2000 years. Latter I found that the whole objective is to say that the 
the so-called orthodox Muslim are ridiculous in interpreting the Quran
or the Hadeeths as related to the death/ascention of Jesus (Pbuh).

  

>The so-called orthodox Muslim belief that a Jesus-look-alike  was
>crucified  instead of Jesus, and that Jesus was raised to heaven,
>to descend a later day, has no support in  the  Holy  Quran.  The
>origin  of  this  popular  belief is from Christian sources, as I
>will show in a future article.

>The Quran is quite clear that Jesus has passed away, and gives no
>support to the concept of Jesus physically going to heaven.  Some
>specific verses will now be considered:


No, this is your logic (only) which says that. 

>1)  "Jesus said, I am a servant of Allah.  
>He has  given  me  the
>Book  and made me a prophet.  And He has made me blessed whereso-
>ever I may be and has enjoined on me prayer  and  alms-giving  so
>long  as I live.  He has made me dutiful toward my mother, and He
>has not made me haughty and unblessed. Peace was on me the day  I
>was  born,  and  peace there shall be on the day I shall die, and
>the day I shall be raised up to life again (19:31-4)."

All these things you mentioned are enjoined on every Muslim, but:

>The verse shows Jesus must have died,  and  could  not  exist  in
>heaven  with  his  physical  body.  1)  If he was still alive, he
>would have to give alms in heaven, but who would need alms there?

1- poor Muslims are not supposed to give alms, and if you are living
alone in a remote island you are not supposed to give alms (in material
sense), however there are other ways to give alms. To feed a bird or an
animal, to clean the road from any thing harmful, to smile for your
human brother, the nice word, prayers, all these things are alms giving.

>2)  If  he  would  descend again to earth alive, he would have to
>follow the Jewish prescriptions on both prayer and alms-giving  -
>and could not be a follower of Islamic law. 

How and where did you come to this conclusion.

>3) Did his mother ac-
>company him to heaven physically?  How could he otherwise  behave
>like a dutiful son towards her?

The word dutiful is not an exact translation to the arabic word
 (Barran). Any way every Muslim is supposed to be dutiful to his parents
as long as he is alife. What about if his parents died ? according to
your logic he should die with them. I am not sure should it be at the
same time or few seconds before them, so as to gurantee that he will be
dutiful to his parents as long as he is alife. This is a question ?

>2)  "Keep in mind when God will say to Jesus, son of Mary:  Didst
>thou  say  to  people:  Take me and my mother for two gods beside
>Allah? - and he will answer, Holy art Thou,  I  could  never  say
>that  to  which  I  had no right.  If I had said it, Thou wouldst
>have surely known it.  Thou knowest what is in  my  mind,  and  I
>know not what is in Thy mind.  It is only Thou who art the Knower
>of hidden things.  I said nothing to them except that which  Thou
>didst command me:  Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.  I was a
>witness over them as long as I remained  among  them,  but  since
>Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them,
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>and Thou art Witness over all things (5:117-8)."

Your misunderstanding of Arabic and relying on translations gives you
many sources of distortion. The underlined is a translation of the
Arabic word " Tawaffaytani " . The meaning of this word is not cause me
to die, it has different meanings. If you read the verse 39:42 you
should find a different meaning.

 42. Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and 
           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds 
 those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends 
 the others back till an appointed term; most surely there 
 are signs in this for a people who reflect.

This is a translation of Muhammad Shakir, he is also not very accurate
in translating the word "tawaffa", but better than your translation.
He is using the phrase " take the soul ". But taking the soul is
different than causing death, as it is clear in the verse, because the
soul is taken from both dead people and sleeping people.



>I will continue the discussion on the Quran's verdict in Part II.

Is it going to be the same ?

>Dr. Tahir Ijaz, M.D.

Ahmed I. El-Habbash,
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.


Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam