HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sabaker@icaen.uiowa.edu (Sarah Anne Baker)
Subject: Re: Single Stick
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:40:20 GMT

hines@left.fishkill.ibm.com (Charles K. Hines) writes:

>>I would not call myself a Kalisador, but last October I was luckly enougth to
>>take a half day workshop put on by Remy Presas. I found it to be fasinating!
>>
>>We worked with two stick, one stick and open hand. The disarms are great and
>>the attackes were fun. I was struck by the simularity between some of the joint
>>locks and those of Aikido and have wondered if there were any connections.
>>
>>I hope that I will have a chance to learn more about it. So if anyone wants to
>>talk about Filipino weapon techniques I would be more then willing to listen
>>and learn.
>>
>>           Mackenzie
 
>I study Remmy Pressas's style at the American headquarters in Highland, NY.
>I've been studying this style for about 7 months now, and it's a blast.  I'd
>be willing to discuss techniques, but I'm not certain that it falls under the
>fencing news group category.  Might it be better off in the martial arts
>news group instead?  Either way it's fine by me...

>Chuck Hines

It doesn't exactly, but I have found that some staff stuff is really similar to
some stuff in fencing...

And not much else is going on right now (can you tell most fencers are
college age and seem to be "home" right now?)

so fire away...

-)))---------  Sarah Baker
From: gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: what now?
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:49:06 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Department of Astronomy, University of Virginia

In article <1ifbqkINNfgd@rave.larc.nasa.gov> mark@uab21.larc.nasa.gov (Mark Flanagan) writes:

> The SCA doesn't fence here
>(Hampton Roads, VA), and I need ideas of where to look for fencers.  I
>certainly don't want to wait another 7 years.  Thanks for your help.

They do in Richmond (Cair Mear). It all depends on how far you're
willing to drive.
From: keradwc@rahul.net (Kevin Davis Connery)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: SCA technique, the wraparound
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:25:06 GMT
Organization: Ringworld Engineering

In article <93Jan11.192659.30763@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:

>>>My guess is that the answer to this question might best be found in
>>>archaeological studies such as Thordemann's excavations at 
>>>Wisby. We should be able to determine the angle of the blow from 
>>>examining skeletal damage combined
>>>with some of the basic kinesiology of swinging a sword.
>>
>>One of the classes taught at a Collegium Occidentalis did just that. Turns
>>out that the data doesn't support much of what we do: The number 1 cause of
>>death (identifiable by skeletal remains) was head injuries, with the impact
>>angle indicating it was a shot from behind and above (i.e., a vertical 
>>strike to the top/rear of the head). Very difficult to do, if not 
>>impossible, from in front of the 'victim'.
>
>Hmmm...I was told once by a military historian that, before the
>days of extensive use of firearms, the vast majority of deaths
>in battle happen when troops are routed and trying to flee.
>
>So if I turned and ran, and you hit me as I did so, it might 
>produce just such a wound.
>
>At the same time, a blow known as the skywrap, or sometimes
>the "scorpion" strikes in just that location. This blow is
>very versatile because if you miss the head you are very likely
>to still strike the shoulder/back/inside of the sheild arm.

[Sorry for the complex quotes]

True, but.

Examination of the wounds apparently indicates not just the angle of the
blow (i.e., 45 degrees, rear quadrant), but the direction of blow. As such,
impact from a high-pivot angle (skyhook/scorpion/etc., with hilt higher than
blade) would differ from a low-pivot angle (hilt below blade)

Where the tissue would be displaced would/could indicate this; I do not
know if the Wisby studies did so.

-- 
Keradwc an Cai                     A Caidan Mistie (or was that a Misty Caidan?)
Kevin Davis Connery                kconnery@isi.com or  keradwc@rahul.net
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Single Stick
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:41:48 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

>
>Is there anything in particular that you folks wish to discuss?
>I can talk about DeCadina (freeform sparring with the canes), a little
>about Espada y Daga (sword and dagger fighting), the Sinawali (stick weaving
>patterns), or anything else you can think of.

All of the above sound interesting.  Sword and dagger would
fit right in, here, too.
>
>Someone also mentioned Aikido in one of the earlier notes, and I have 2 years
>of experience there...if you would like some cross discussion.  It's not
>exactly fencing either, but it is a sword based form.

A lot of us have crossovers.  I started with fencing, moved to
other sword arts, and now have been heavily involved with bok
fu for the past five years, and notice many, many
similarities.  I think that cross discussions are very useful.

>>And not much else is going on right now (can you tell most fencers are
>>college age and seem to be "home" right now?)

Dangerous assumption.  Oddly enough, I'm twice college age,
but I was gone between Christmas and New Year because I took
vacation.  (A lot of college types modem in from home, I
notice.  Those who rely on work for access are just gone for a
while.)
--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"Every now and then, a big rock falls out of the sky, and everyone has 
a *very bad* day."  --from the PBS "Dinosaurs" special.
From: CHD@HERMES.ECE.ARIZONA.EDU (Chris De Young)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Cross training (i.e., foil for an epeeist or vice-versa)
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:30:38 GMT
Organization: --
NNTP-Posting-Host: hermes.ece.arizona.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <5JAN199315062724@jane.uh.edu> mece25r@jane.uh.edu writes:

> During practice, I regularly do epee, take epee lessons, try to apply
> foil techniques in epee, vice versa. I've found epee improves my form,
[...] 
> Also, while fencing epee, parries have to be really good and solid, since
> there is no off-target! If you learn how to parry well in epee bouts,
> it could be translated to a really good foil game

This could be good and bad..... things which work well in one don't always
work quite so well in the other.  In epee, for example, you see 
counter-attacks much more often (and parry-ripostes less often) than in
foil; practicing your parry-ripostes might not be the most effective
way to train epee.

Similarly, in epee you want to practice the small hand and arm touches
(they're difficult but effective); these reflexes won't help you much in
foil.  I also find that I fence with a little more distance in epee than 
foil.

More than once I've seen the good epee fencer beat the good foil fencer
(who does a lot of parry-ripostes) in epee with counter-attacks to the hand,
often with a retreat thrown in.  ;-) 

-Chris
chd@ece.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: norvell@csri.toronto.edu (Theo Norvell)
Subject: Re: Sabre regulations
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:00:25 GMT

In article <14111@ecs.soton.ac.uk> ajl@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Lewis AJ) writes:
>Anyway...
>There is a rule which states that if you do a beat attack, the beat must
>be on the top half of your opponent's blade. If you hit the bottom half,
>this is counted as his/her parry, and if they then hit you, it is counted
>as their parry/riposte, NOT your beat attack. 

It's the bottom third.  Otherwise you are right.  I guess the reason for this
rule is that otherwise it would be too hard to tell the difference between
a beat attack and, a parried attack and rimise.

>I took my opponent's blade, and did a successful graze attack, which was
>followed by his counter attack, which also hit. This was almost invariably
>given to the opponent on the grounds that my blade slid down to the lower
>part of his blade, and was hence parried *despite* the fact that the hit was
>part of the original attacking motion (mine), and my blade was at no time
>deflected or taken out of line by his - I would have interpreted
>this as a malparry. 

The bottom third rule applies only to the beat, not to any other preparation.
To my mind you were both in error.  You for attacking his forte with your
foible, and he for riposting without sufficiently parrying.  If you had first
given his foible a good shove (pris-de-fer) and then slid down, I'd say it's
your hit, but the graze isn't really sabre.

I'd recommend practicing a bit more before your next sabre competition. :-)

>Andy Lewis (ajl@ecs.soton.ac.uk)

Theo Norvell
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: hines@left.fishkill.ibm.com (Charles K. Hines)
Subject: Arnis Basics (Re: Single Stick)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 14:34:26 GMT
Reply-To: chuck_hines@vnet.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Poughkeepsie, NY


In article <1993Jan6.174507.1@camins.camosun.bc.ca>, comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca writes:
>Can we start with the basics? What are the first things taught? What is the
>theory of attack? Opps! that might not be so basic.
>

Sure.  As mentioned earlier, Arnis works off of circles and angles.  In general,
movement to avoid or attack your opponents (footwork) is circular.  Using this
in fencing might be difficult, since the little I've seen of fencing (tried it
once) seems rather linear (back & forth).

Now, the angles of attack might come in handy.  But then again, you may learn
most of them through regular training anyway!  Here they are (12):

  2 downward 45 degree angles   \   /
  2 horizontal left and right  ->   <- 
  1 straight jab
  2 hooked jabs to pectoral region
  2 hooked jabs to head
  2 upward 45 degree angles     \   /
  1 straight down

and they can be directed at any part of the body.  They come from the
Arnis symbol which looks something like this:

           \ | /
           - o -    (note, in the inner circle is a triangle)
           / | \

which is difficult to represent here, for obvious reasons...

We've worked on some Espada y Daga techniques that involve either the 
downward 45's or the hooked jabs to head/pecs with the cane (sword), and
a split second later producing a dagger for an upward strike to the abdomen.
I've been told that this is a favorite Fillipino technique.

As for basics, we work on attacking these angles using the circular footwork
and concentrating on keeping our checking hand (defense) in place ready for
the counter attack.

For the theory of attack, you are right, that isn't so basic.  Let's just 
say (for now) that "fast and furious" is a good description.  Keep the attacks
coming, angle out of your opponents attacks, and never make just 1 attack at
a time -> always do combinations.

Now, if you have any suggestions as to what else I could tell you that would
pertain to fencing, I'll try to continue.  Or if you could describe some
basic fencing techniques, this might help me to see which other aspecs of
Arnis would be helpful...

And if anyone reading this lives within, say 30 miles of Poughkeepsie, NY ->
I'd love to have you come to my class!

Chuck Hines
From: connelr@research.CS.ORST.EDU (Ricky)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Cross training (i.e., foil for an epeeist or vice-versa)
Date: 6 Jan 93 04:14:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: jasper.cs.orst.edu

>My questions are, what should I pay attention to, or try to focus on
>when I fence foil, so I can improve my epee skills?  What should a
>foilist practice when fencing epee?  How much (percentage wise) should
>an epee/foilist spend with the other blade?  Is it a good idea to 
>cross-fence?

	I've had a similar experience, I grew up as mostly an epee fencer, and then changed salles.  At the second salle, there was barely another epee fencer, though the coach/teacher/master knew
epee.  He took me aside and told me that to get better at any of
the other weapons, I'd better make sure that my foil fencing was solid.
He was *very* correct (funny how little guys who have been fencing for
over 70 years are, isn't it?).  Anyway, I took foil a lot more 
seriously.  What did I lose?  A little point control that I can get 
back fairly rapidly with some work... what did I gain?  Loads of
ways to get other epee-ists.  Epee doesn't have right of way, but
knowing the difference between when to puncture someone and when to 
parry them and then puncture them becomes very useful against good
epee-ists.  Oh, I've also figured out that when I go back to epee 
I have to keep my concentration on hitting at the wrist/arm as
opposed to the body.
	I'd say pick up a foil and get as good at it as you can.
It's a light fast blade, and will only help your parries and other
fun in-time moves for when you pick up the epee again.
	Later,
		Ricky
From: marshal@maico.ksu.ksu.edu (Timothy Pat Marshall)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: test
Date: 6 Jan 1993 13:24:29 -0600
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: maico.ksu.ksu.edu
Summary: test only
Keywords: test

This is a test, sorry.
:w
::


hello  


::
From: mece25r@jane.uh.edu (Palit, Suman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Cross training (i.e., foil for an epeeist or vice-versa)
Date: 5 Jan 1993 15:06 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Jan5.204858.8284@cheshire.oxy.edu>, t_pascal@cheshire.oxy.edu writes...
> 
>Hi, I'm an epeeist, but unfortunately, there are very few other epee

> 
>My questions are, what should I pay attention to, or try to focus on
>when I fence foil, so I can improve my epee skills?  What should a
>foilist practice when fencing epee?  How much (percentage wise) should
>an epee/foilist spend with the other blade?  Is it a good idea to 
>cross-fence?
> 


I've been cross-fencing foil and epee for about a year now. IMHO, it's
been a great help to me. However, since I'm still pretty much a rank
beginner at both, I fence only foil at competitions. That's because
I find it difficult to switch from *thinking* foil to *thinking* epee, and
my fencing isn't at that point where it doesn't matter what sport
I'm fencing. (BTW, I *know* I'm not supposed to *think* foil, but hey,
what the hell.... :-) )

During practice, I regularly do epee, take epee lessons, try to apply
foil techniques in epee, vice versa. I've found epee improves my form,
since I have a tendency to drop my shoulder (It matters a lot more in
epee than in foil!), and fencing epee makes me more aware of such details.

Also, while fencing epee, parries have to be really good and solid, since
there is no off-target! If you learn how to parry well in epee bouts,
it could be translated to a really good foil game


Suman Palit
From: markk@cypress.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: beginner questions
Date: 8 Jan 1993 21:37:06 GMT
Organization: SunSoft South
Distribution: world
Reply-To: markk@cypress.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: sagredo.west.sun.com

An attack of "second intention" is sequence of actions beginning with
an attack that you expect to be parried - and your real intention is
to disengage, coupe, stop-thrust or do something else to hit.  It
could be called a feint ... but feints have a bad reputation, in that
some fencers make feints that do not look like (and could not function
as) real attacks.  An attack of second intention could function as a
successful attack (if your opponent is not paying attention), but it
is your expectation and intention to elicit a defensive response and
make the real attack (the one that scores) against that defensive
response.

Counter-time is almost a musical term.  Inexperienced fencers are 
often rythmic in their advances, retreats, beats and lunges.  If
you are fencing against such an opponent, you are likely to find
that attacts made with a faster rythm and initiated between your
opponents down-beats will be very effective, and your opponent will
have difficulty countering them.


Aren't these words defined somewhere in the FIE manual?
From: rgd3729@tamsun.tamu.edu (Greg Dilworth)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: SW Section spring calendar
Date: 9 Jan 1993 12:07:27 -0600
Organization: Texas A&M University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamsun.tamu.edu

Greetings,

I figured I would send this out in case anyone is interested who will
not be getting one in the mail soon.  It it the SW section of the
USFA's tournament list for the spring.  I hope it comes in handy to a
few people.

Greg

------------------------------------------------------------------------
DATE		TOURNAMENT		WEAPONS		LOCATION
------------------------------------------------------------------------
January 
9		One touch epee				USMPA
16-17		Tournoi d'Escrime	Invitational	Round Rock
23		Beginner's Foil		J		Round Rock
27		Mixed Epee/Sabre	HI		New Orleans
30-31		Oklahoma City Open			Oklahoma City
30-31		Challenge Jean Renaud	ABHI		Salle Lagadere

February
6		Holy Cross Mixed Foil			New Orleans
6-7		Poujardieu Open		ABCDIN		SWTSU
6-7		Team Open				UT
13-14		Challenge de La Romance			Salle Lagadere
15		NOFC Epee				New Orleans
20		One Touch Epee				USMPA
20-21		Bobcat Open				SWTSU
23		Mixed Foil				New Orleans
27		Texarkan Open				Texarkana
27-28		Aggie Open				CS
30		Youth Circuit		L		Round Rock

March
6-7		Masters			ABHI		UT
13-14		Van Buskirk				Houston
20		International Pentathlon 		USMPA
		Open
20		Beginner's Foil				Round Rock
20		Rosiere Team				New Orleans
20-21		North Texas Grand Prix			Dallas
27		Beginner's Open				SWTSU
27		Youth Circuit				RR
27-28		Crescent City Open			New Orleans

April
2-4		Texas Collegiate 			CS
		Championships
3		Louisianna Division II			New Orleans
		Qualifyers				
10-11		Yorick Open				SWTSU
16		Epee Clinic				New Orleans
17-18		Caddo Magnet F.C. Open			Texarkana
17-18		Challenge d'Artagnan			Salle Lagadere
24-25		South Texas Division II			SWTSU
		Qualifyers				
24-25		Gulf Coast Division II			Houston
		Qualifyers				

May
1-2		TFA Youth Tounament			TFA/Austin
1		Oak Alley Mixed Foil			New Orleans
1-2		Memorial Tournament			CS
8-9		Southwest Sectional			Houston
		Championships				
15-16		Challenge de Toulouse Lautrec		Salle Lagadere
15		Franklin Novice				New Orleans
29-30		Nationals Warm-up			Round Rock

June
5-13		USFA National Championships		Ft. Myers,
							Florida
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Is it considered safe to fence electric in a thunderstorm?
From: king@reasoning.com (Dick King)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:31:06 GMT
Organization: Reasoning Systems, Inc., Palo Alto, CA


A part of me worries just a tad.

-dk
From: connelr@research.CS.ORST.EDU (Ricky)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Cross training (i.e., foil for an epeeist or vice-versa)
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:25:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: flop.1iko03INNbi5
Distribution: world
Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: hematite.cs.orst.edu

Kevin Herrboldt writes:

"As someone else pointed out, a strong foundation in foil will help in
the other weapons.  At my club quite a bit of cross-fencing occurs,
and we have some very strong fencers (the coaches have something to do
with that, too).  Since foil and epee are both point weapons, it shouldn't
hurt your epee game too much to fence foil, but you should still fence
epee as often as possible, since the strategy is different.
The only cross-fencing I've seen cause problems is with sabre, since a lot
of sabre fencing is bent-arm and with absence of point."

	And no sabre-ist that I've met really likes point attacks either. 
A lot of the unexperienced ones can't even seem to figure out how in the
world to parry an attack that is coming straight in as opposed to from one
of the sides or top. :)
	I fenced all three weapons for a while, I would warm up with foil,
then go to sabre, and usually finish off with epee... here are some
of my reasons for that order:
	1) As I went from one weapon to another, the tempo seemed correct. 
Foil is usually pretty relaxed, though as you get more into it, it speeds
up considerably. Everyone seems to be slow when they first step onto the
strip during practices.  Sabre is just plain old fast, and then epee is a
mix, often truly fast (stop-hits, counter-time moves) mixed with the
occasional slow segway.  
	2) Expanding target area.  Foil you don't have that much you need
to worry about in the way of target area, just your vital organs.  Sabre
then adds your head to the list of vital organs, and epee adds your toes. 
This means that your parries and defense are going to start out tight, and
get looser as the paractice goes on.  Also your attacks go from a small
area to a larger area as the time passes.
	Other than that, it just seemed correct for this to be the order. 
We had a lot of multi-weapon people in the salle, and there was often
discussion of what the proper order of fencing should be.  There were a
couple different styles, but everyone did foil first.
	Later,
		Ricky
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: hines@left.fishkill.ibm.com (Charles K. Hines)
Subject: Re: Single Stick
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 15:54:53 GMT
Reply-To: hinesc@fshvmfk1.vnet.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Poughkeepsie, NY


>I would not call myself a Kalisador, but last October I was luckly enougth to
>take a half day workshop put on by Remy Presas. I found it to be fasinating!
>
>We worked with two stick, one stick and open hand. The disarms are great and
>the attackes were fun. I was struck by the simularity between some of the joint
>locks and those of Aikido and have wondered if there were any connections.
>
>I hope that I will have a chance to learn more about it. So if anyone wants to
>talk about Filipino weapon techniques I would be more then willing to listen
>and learn.
>
>           Mackenzie
>

I study Remmy Pressas's style at the American headquarters in Highland, NY.
I've been studying this style for about 7 months now, and it's a blast.  I'd
be willing to discuss techniques, but I'm not certain that it falls under the
fencing news group category.  Might it be better off in the martial arts
news group instead?  Either way it's fine by me...

Chuck Hines
From: m1wrp99@milo.uucp (William R. Palenske)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: where queries
Date: 7 Jan 93 22:11:02 GMT
Organization: Federal Reserve Board, Wash, DC


i've noticed a fair number of _where_ queries.  e.g.,

>I originally learned tournament fencing about 10 years ago.  I moved away
>... (Not sure where to go). ... I've graduated, and am back where I have 
>no idea where to fence.  ... where to look for fencers. ....

so maybe a list of sites should be kept which can be periodically posted
ala an faq.  i'm sure this would encourage / help persons who are interested
in the sport.        

-- 
   Bill Palenske            Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
   m1wrp99@fed.frb.gov      Washington, D.C.  20551
   uunet!fed!wrp            DISCLAIMER: MY OPINIONS ARE MY OWN.