HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie)
Subject: Re: YOUTH IN GOVERNMENT
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 19:54:46 GMT

>She is selling it to us on the point that when colleges are looking at
>candidates, they look for that kind of extra curricular activity.

If the program does in fact allow the kids an opportunity to get an up close
and personal look at government I would be encouraging my kid to
go regardless of what colleges might think about (and assuming that the family
budget could in fact afford it). Moreover, whatever colleges might think,
further employers, during college and possibly after, will definitely take notice.

American participation in the political process is pathetically poor. This
allows people like Helms to get elected. This allows the California State
Senate to be reduced to complete ineffectiveness. 

smittie
--
___________________________________________________________________________
GEnie, MCI, AOL:Smittie   All of these accounts except MCI will die on or
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___________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
From: cfeem@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Eleanor Midkiff)
Subject: Re: Use of Family car
Summary: Good grief! 
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1992 21:13:30 GMT
Distribution: na
Expires: ?
Organization: Eastern Illinois University
Keywords: Expense
Followup-To: alt.parents-teens

>I must admit though, I think Judith Reed's way is a lot easier for the parent.
>Simply count the cost and the potential for harm and damage. No offense intend
>but I hope to invest more in my daughter than that.
>
Sorry, but this is really a cheap shot.  Many of us can't afford to
"invest" $5000 - plus per year in transportation for our kids.  I am
investing a great deal more than that in my kids' education, which IMHO is
a great deal more important than having the convenience of a car.  I also
think I'm teaching them an important lesson about values; I question
whether someone who buys his kid a car is teaching anything of the sort.

My $.02.

Eleanor

-- 
Eleanor Midkiff
(cfeem@eiu.edu)
From: cwilbur@polar.bowdoin.edu (Charlton Wilbur)
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
Subject: Cultural elitism as a problem?
Date: 5 Oct 1992 21:29:40 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Before we go off raving, half-cocked, about the "cultural elite," let's 
define exactly what we mean when we say "cultural elite." 
As I understand it, the "cultural elite," according to the
Conservative Right, is that segment of the population that understands the
fine arts. They are playing this group off against those with "family values,"
apparently those who understand football better than they understand Mozart. 
(Note: I am painting this with extremely broad strokes.)

So, under this definition, where do I fall? I can place most pieces of music
written between 1200 and 1900 in the right century, and all of them in the
right decade; I have seen some of Mapplethorpe's less notorious works; I enjoy
spending entire days in bookstores; I speak English, French, and German, the
first two fluently; and I'd just as soon look at a Jackson Pollock work
Pollock as a Wyeth (take your pick). Well, sad to say, it looks like I'm a
member of the morally decadent CULTURAL ELITE.

But then, on the other hand, I go to football games every now and then. I've
been to hockey matches. I have two parents, still married after twenty-four
years (twenty-five next August), that form a family J. Danforth Quayle would
be proud of. I don't believe in sex without commitment or without
responsibility, something that J.D.Q. probably wouldn't support vehemently. So
do I have good FAMILY VALUES? and am I still a member of that despicable
group, the CULTURAL ELITE? 

Face it. Th "cultural elite" is a paper dragon that the Conservative Right has
created to disguise the issues. I for one am damned proud to be part of it,
imaginary organization that it is.

Charlton Wilbur '95
Bowdoin College
cwilbur@polar.bowdoin.edu

Flames to my e-mail address; no sense making other people read drivel too.
From: smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie)
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
Subject: Re: Use of Family car
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:34:57 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Cal State Long Beach

>On the larger issue, as someone noted, when a teen says NO ONE ELSE does
>thus and so, it always means that some members of the small group of
>popular kids that they are trying to emulate do not do thus and so. There are
>undoubtedly huge numbers of their peers that do thus and so every day.

We as adults do this very same thing. We all make decisions that are at least
in some part based on what our own "in crowd" is doing. Whether it is the
clothes we wear, the car we drive, the area we live in, the social
organizations we belong to, etc. All of us are seeking the acceptance of some
peer group. This desire for acceptance is very important to teenagers.

I am not suggesting that every parent should run out and buy whatever it is
that Susie or Johnny asks for simply because "everyone has one." What I am
saying is that it is very important that we as parents make a serious effort to
understand our childrens' situations and positions.

I much prefer to help my daughter learn about the responsibilities of being an
adult. I don't teach children to swim by tossing them into a pool and telling
them to figure it out. Likewise I won't toss my daughter into the
responsibilities of adulthood unassisted. Hell, I often times don't handle
my own responsibilities as well as I should. My daughter won't be getting a
free car, she'll most assuredly have to work for it. But I fully intend to
reward her own efforts at assimilating to adulthood. I think that sudden
immersion in overwhelming responsibility is a sure way to frustrate and
aggravate to person. Likewise, giving a person a car but none of the
responsibilities of owning a car is a sure way to keep them from ever learning
how to deal with the burdens of responsibility.

I must admit though, I think Judith Reed's way is a lot easier for the parent.
Simply count the cost and the potential for harm and damage. No offense intend
but I hope to invest more in my daughter than that.

smittie

-- 
___________________________________________________________________________
GEnie, MCI, AOL:Smittie   All of these accounts except MCI will die on or
smittie@beach.csulb.edu   about Dec 31. UNIX will be forwarded for 2 weeks.
___________________________________________________________________________
From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
Subject: Re: Attitiudes and Relationships in Teens
Date: 1 Oct 1992 13:24:53 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu
Keywords: oprah, boys who treat girls bad, viceVersa

bgt@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (barbara.tongue) writes:
>would y'all out there say that teenagers today still labor under
>the antiquated notion of what it takes to "be a man"?

My experience teaching high school kids was that

(1) You can find, in individual kids, every imaginable terrible attitude,
including racism and sexism -- but more often than not it turns out that
those particular kids are encouraged in their beliefs by their parents.

(2) On the other hand, most of the actual bad behavior of kids toward
each other doesn't come from such bad principles, but rather from a
general self-centeredness that's just one of the hurdles of adolescence.
I don't mean that they're deliberately selfish, but that they just have a
very hard time putting themselves in the other person's shoes, because
their own emotional needs are so pressing.

I guess I'm saying that most of the jerks you describe don't realize
they're being jerks, and would probably honestly deny that they're being
jerks, rather than being proud of it.

(P.S.  I taught in a mostly-white, rather rich suburb.  I don't know
to what extent these observations generalize, although my guess would be
that they hold for most teenagers, at least all those within the range
of television...)
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
From: bgt@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (barbara.tongue)
Subject: Attitiudes and Relationships in Teens
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 11:54:48 GMT
Keywords: oprah, boys who treat girls bad, viceVersa

folks,

anyone catch the oprah show yesterday?  the subject was "moms
who think their sons are jerks to girls", ie, telling them what
they want to hear until they (the sons) are bored, and then dumping
them.

one aspect which was rather striking to me was one abused (by exHusband)
mom had remarried a guy who treated her with courtesy, and her son declared
"he's a wimp/wuss" for his actions, to which mom replied, "my husband has
more manhood in his little finger than the son has in his whole body."
 
would y'all out there say that teenagers today still labor under
the antiquated notion of what it takes to "be a man"?

-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%%   The Speaking Tongue, AT&T   %%  C Code.  C Code Run.  Run, Code, RUN! %%
%%       bgt@homxc.att.com       %%           PLEASE!!!!                   %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
From: 6042230@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Attitiudes and Relationships in Teens
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 17:55:55 GMT

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
From: jonwllms@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (John Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
Subject: Re: Attitiudes and Relationships in Teens
Date: 2 Oct 92 13:39:57 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

bgt@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (barbara.tongue) writes:
:  [stuff deleted]
: would y'all out there say that teenagers today still labor under
: the antiquated notion of what it takes to "be a man"?
:

Oh, yes. I was absoultely astounded at the amount of sexism on this
[Virginia Tech] campus. Not that the faculty is sexist - I haven't seen
any problem with that - but many or most of the students here are.

Now, I realize that those aint exactly teenagers, but I live in a dorm
full of freshmen, fresh out of high school.

--
*******************************************************************************
*** |---------------------------------|-----------------------------------| ***
*** | John Williams                   |                                   | ***
*** | jonwllms@csugrad.cs.vt.edu      |      "And now for something       | ***

<<How do you expect some kids to react when the asst. principal (who is female)
<<tells a student that she won't make it in the world because she is a double
<<minority (the girl is female and hispanic). My thoughts are: this principal
<<has just planted the seed in this girls mind that she can't make it, she
<<should expect less, settle for less, be treated as less. This is a person
<<these kids should respect. I agree some of these attitudes are learned from
<<others, some are the kids self-centeredness coming out. I wait for my
<<daughter to cool down and then approach her with the idea of how do you think
<<this other person would feel in your shoes. It usually goes pretty well. I
<<try to do this after and incident. Hopefully it will stay with her.

<<Donna
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens

Well here I am in "alt.parents-teens", which I found with help from,
Kathy Cousins. Thanks Kathy.

I would like some insite on kids age 11 & 14, a boy and girl.

It goes like this, we've been dating for ~3 month. The kids were in Calif.
when we met. Let me start with this, basically I feel they're OK kids.

Mom's been divorced for ~7 years, living in Boise Id., dad's in Calif.
She's raising them alone, basically. I appreciate how difficult it is to
this. 

I've been divored 10 years, never had kids, I like kids, never had problems
in getting close to them. (in the past they were younger)

My observasions here are this:
           1. Both kids lack respect for mom.
           2. The language they use towards mom, in my opinion, is
              unacceptable.
           3. I sence jealousy from the boy, for taking time away from mom.
           
I realize it's easy for me to see and comment on these things, and not
having to have delt with this type of situation.

What I would like advice with is, how can I get close without it being
as if I'm budding in? Also I just want any advice as to how kids behave,
so I can see where they're (the kids) are coming from.

There is more, but I'll laeve it at that.

Thanks in advance for any help, or insight...

   /                 _____                  (208) 323-3146 FAX-(208) 323-5136
  / /  _   _  /)    (_/_ _     _  /) _  _            karlf@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
_/ \ _(_|_/(_//_   __/ _(/_/)_(/_//_(/_/(_           karlf@hpdml60.boi.hp.com
    \________________________(/_____________ Hewlett-Packard Boise, Idaho USA
From: jonwllms@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (John Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
Subject: Re: Attitiudes and Relationships in Teens
Date: 2 Oct 92 13:39:57 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

bgt@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (barbara.tongue) writes:
:  [stuff deleted]
: would y'all out there say that teenagers today still labor under
: the antiquated notion of what it takes to "be a man"?
: 

Oh, yes. I was absoultely astounded at the amount of sexism on this 
[Virginia Tech] campus. Not that the faculty is sexist - I haven't seen
any problem with that - but many or most of the students here are. 

Now, I realize that those aint exactly teenagers, but I live in a dorm
full of freshmen, fresh out of high school.

-- 
*******************************************************************************
*** |---------------------------------|-----------------------------------| ***
*** | John Williams                   |                                   | ***
*** | jonwllms@csugrad.cs.vt.edu      |      "And now for something       | ***
From: mhampsch@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Mark Hampsch)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 11:30:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Use of Family car
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens

I remember when I was in High School,  I had to come up with half of the money
for my car and my dad LOANED me the rest of the money to buy my car.  I then
made payments to my dad on the money he LOANED me PLUS pay for the added cost
of adding myself and my car on his insurance.  I did all of the maintance and
kept it full of gas.  I now my dad knew what he was doing because it tought me
the value of money plus the responsibility of owning a car.

Mark
From: jonwllms@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (John Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
Subject: Re: Cultural elitism as a problem?
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:28:56 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

cwilbur@polar.bowdoin.edu (Charlton Wilbur) writes:

 [Several paragraphs deleted, despite thier quality]

: 
: Face it.The "cultural elite" is a paper dragon that the Conservative Right has
: created to disguise the issues. I for one am damned proud to be part of it,
: imaginary organization that it is.
: 

It always struck me that those who are down on the "Cultural elite" are playing
elitism themselves:

"We're better than they are! We're _real_ people!"

I also think that in a previous call to arms against the Cultural Elite 
of the media, the poster used the same tactics of persuasion, etc, that she 
accused the Elite of using. 

I agree - the Cultural Elite is merely a political creation used to fill
the void that the Soviet Union left behind.

-- 
*** | John Williams                   |                                   | ***
*** | jonwllms@csugrad.cs.vt.edu      |      "And now for something       | ***
*** | Virginia Tech                   |       completely different."      | ***
*** | Computer Science Undergrad      |                -John Cleese       | ***
From: 6042230@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
Subject: Re: Attitiudes and Relationships in Teens
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:54:39 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
From: jonwllms@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (John Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
Subject: Re: Attitiudes and Relationships in Teens
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:09:44 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

6042230@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes: (Donna, I guess)

: How do you expect some kids to react when the asst. principal (who is female)
: tells a student that she won't make it in the world because she is a double
: minority (the girl is female and hispanic). My thoughts are: this principal
: has just planted the seed in this girls mind that she can't make it, she
: should expect less, settle for less, be treated as less. This is a person
: these kids should respect. I agree some of these attitudes are learned from
: others, some are the kids self-centeredness coming out. I wait for my
: daughter to cool down and then approach her with the idea of how do you think
: this other person would feel in your shoes. It usually goes pretty well. I
: try to do this after and incident. Hopefully it will stay with her.
:
: Donna

Unfortunately, chauvanism and bigotry seem to be traits that are impossible
to get rid of in the space of one generation. The intent may no longer be
there, but it takes some effort to keep yourself from behaving in such
a stupid manner. It seems to me that this assistant principle has "planted
the seed" of the concept that she will never do well becuase of her ethnicity,
but I cannot say whether is was intentional or not.

As for self-centeredness, if you think about it, that is exactly wht bigotry
and sexism is. And one can learn self centeredness from parents just the same
as they do bigotry.

--
*** | John Williams                   |                                   | ***
*** | jonwllms@csugrad.cs.vt.edu      |      "And now for something       | ***
*** | Virginia Tech                   |       completely different."      | ***
*** | Computer Science Undergrad      |                -John Cleese       | ***

<<Good points. I don't believe the asst. principal wanted this girl to feel
<<badly about herself. I think she wanted her to be aware of what some might
<<think. I believe it come out wrong. The assit. principal was angry at the
<<time and when confronted by the girls mother said that is not what she meant.
<<However, she never did explain herself to the girl. At times we all say
<<things that we should know better than to say or even think. It is these
<<when we need to explain that it was wrong, it is a bad attitude, or something
<<we said in anger that is not right. And, hopefully we all learn from it.


<<Donna
From: coxm@Software.Mitel.COM (Michael Cox)
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
Subject: Re: Use of Family car
Date: 30 Sep 92 14:35:27 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <SMITTIE.92Sep28131313@wren.csulb.edu> smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>understand to what our kids are saying). Parents need to make an effort to
>understand their children's position and opinions. Once a decision is made, for
>or against, it should be clearly explained and discussed.
>
With car insurance (up here) about 150$/month for a "young" driver (without
restrictions).  The cost of the car plus 1800$/year plus gas I would at least
expect the child to pay for insurance, gasoline, repairs, and maintenance.
Going to/from school near me would cost 1800 + 52*30 (for gasoline-it's that
expensive up here) + ~2000 (for normal maintenance) + 66 (yearly vehicle
license) + 9$ (one third of the drivers license, renewed once every three
years )= 5430$/year.  At the current minimum wage (6$/hour) that works out to
905 hours just to pay for the running of the vehicle.  Assuming full employment
during the summer for eight weeks then during the remainder of the year they
must work for almost 14 hours per week.  Most teens only seem to get 9 to 14
hours per week anyway.  In addition the teen would want new clothes, go to
movies, drink beer, buy snacks . . .  Without enormous financial assistance
from parents, can a teen actually afford to drive a car to school?
-- 
Michael H. Cox      | Referendum vote:
                    | Men vote:             YES
Mitel Corporation   | Women vote:           NO
                    | Hermaphrodites vote:  MAYBE
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
From: jareed@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Judith Ann Reed)
Subject: Re: Use of Family car
Keywords: Should I let her use the car
Organization: Syracuse University
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 14:01:19 EDT

In article <1992Sep25.172409.15265@tellab5.tellabs.com> pauls@tellabs.com (Paul Silver) writes:
>In article <1992Sep23.121038.10977@cbfsb.cb.att.com> posie@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (donald.e.church) writes:
>[...]>
>>She is a junior in HS this year but next
>>year she informs me that Seniors do NOT ride the bus!  
>[...]
>
>*-----*
>
>This is simply not true,  When I was a senior in high school, I road the bus.
>Most seniors rode the bus.  A few kids whose parents spoiled them or had
>bought their own car with their own savings from working drove.
>

I simply boil when I am told something like the above by my almost 15-yo
daughter - Other kids DO NOT do ...., therefore I WILL NOT do it.

Call me reactionary, but I hate to be told what she will not do, simply
because it is not the "cool" thing to do, with no regard for the realities
of our situation. I have no intention of letting her take MY car to school,
much less riding the bus so she can avoid riding the bus. If she wants
a car, she can work, buy insurance, buy the car, maintain the car, etc. etc.

On the larger issue, as someone noted, when a teen says NO ONE ELSE does
thus and so, it always means that some members of the small group of 
popular kids that they are trying to emulate do not do thus and so. There are
undoubtedly huge numbers of their peers that do thus and so every day. 

If it isn't going to cost me anything, or hurt anyone, then perhaps she can
do thus and so, but otherwise, forget it. I know, I'm an ogre, but I believe
that they have to learn that now that they want to take on adult privileges,
they must also assume adult responsibilities. 

Judith Reed, mom to Tanya, almost 15, the former 9th grader from hell. 

p.s. - so far, so good this school year. She hasn't skipped any classes this
year,
says it is really tough going to all those classes all the time!!!!
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens
From: bena@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Ben Aveling)
Subject: Re: Youth Protection
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 07:58:08 GMT

John Williams (jonwllms@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote:
: lynda@mozart.Physics.McGill.CA (Lynda Corkum) writes:
: :  
: :                          ... last year my daughter, who was twelve at the  
: : time, during a school dance decided to take 27 aspirins crushed up in a  
: : coca cola ...
: :
: : [ Questions concerning suicide ... ]
: :  
: 
: I haven't heard anything about this group, but I do have some two cents to 
: put in.  
: 
: It seems to me that the Asprin incident was mearly a case of not thinking 
: properly. I've done some realy stupid things myself - ...
:

Probably.  Most suicide attempts are ONLY an attempt to gain a bit of attention,
perhaps a bit of emotional blackmail.  Unfortunately, many successful suicide
attempts were also just an attempt to gain attention. :-(

Twelve year olds can be hard to get sense out of, but talking never hurt.
( Lecturing and Interrogating however ... )

Good Luck,

Ben
Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens