HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: glockner-gregory@CS.YALE.EDU (Gregory Glockner)
Subject: Re: United drops 737-400 in favor of A-320
Summary: Overheard in the industry
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:03:39 GMT

This is what I've heard around the office here at FAA HQ:

My apologies if some things have been said here, but I just discovered
this group.

Reasons why UAL takes big A320 order:

1. Financing.  Nobody knows the precise details, but we've all heard about
   Airbus Industrie's sweet financing deal, whereby UAL has flexibility
   in owning the aircraft.

2. Range.  The A320 can fly longer routes than any of the 737 (Sorry that I
   can't quote the precise range figures).

3. Capacity.  I've heard that UAL wants to use the A320s to replace their
   large fleet of 727s.  727s, like A320s, have much greater capacity than
   any of the 737 family, including 737-300, -400.

There is a significant downside to this, though:

1. The A320 represents a new family of aircraft for United.  Thus, there
   are significant training expenses for crew and maintanence.  Diseconomies
   of scale (in costs) will take effect.

2. According to my sources, the Northwest maintanence crews hate working
   on the A320... fly-by-wire equipment is more difficult to keep up
   than old fashioned hydraulics.
-- 
Gregory Glockner				Work: 202-267-3924
   Past:     Yale, '92				Home: 202-333-2454
   Present:  FAA, AOR-200
   Future:   ISyE, Georgia Tech (Phd. '97)	glockner @ minerva.cis.yale.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: barriost@gtephx.UUCP (Tim Barrios)
Subject: Re: FliteMap $395 Moving Map Software
Summary: Trimble Flightmate GPS has no RS-232
Organization: AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, Arizona
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:02:52 GMT


In article <d8lmmvb.rkaplan@netcom.com>, rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan) writes:
> ...
> Anyway, the final missing link in the above setup is, of
> course, an RS232-equipped LORAN or GPS system.  I
> do not recall seeing RS232 mentioned in writeups I have
> read of low cost handheld GPS/LORANS..... Probably this is because
> they do not have RS232 connections, but I can dream :-)
> 
> Does anyone know of a low cost (i.e. < $1000 street price)
> handheld LORAN or GPS which has an RS-232 connector?

The Trimble Flightmate GPS has no sign of an RS-232 interface on it. 
In fact, it has no connections to the outside world at all.  Even the
external antenna seems to just slip over the unit and re-transmit the
signal.  Also, no mention of RS-232 or any other interface in the
user's guide.
-- 
Tim Barrios, AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, AZ
UUCP: ...!{ncar!noao!enuucp | att}!gtephx!barriost
Internet: gtephx!barriost@enuucp.eas.asu.edu or barriost@gtephx.att.com
voice: (602) 582-7101        fax:   (602) 581-4022
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: ericth@i88.isc.com (Eric Thiele)
Subject: Re: Cosmo goes to the airport
Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:53:37 GMT

I second Dave's comments on the article in Cosmo.  The author mixed in some
fluff about personal attraction to her dashing male CFI, and the prospects of
finding eligible guys around airports (I have to agree - sure beats hanging
around grocery stores, you single gals out there).

But she has a very honest, colorful and humorous style of describing her 
first 3 lessons.  And several of her remarks like how she felt about her first
stalls made me feel "I'm not alone".. :-)  I was also sorta surprised that her
third lesson included a night landing.

BTW, last month there was an interesting article from a former flight attendant.
A perspective of commercial air travel I haven't heard from before.  Kind of
amazing the situations she had to deal with.

And for some reason, I want to say that I only read the aviation related 
articles in Cosmo, or Playboy for that matter.  Now where's that copy of
"Fear of Flying", anyway?....
From: spenny@sw.stratus.com (Steve Pennypacker)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Shoulder Harnesses (Was: Re: Cessna sholdr harn review (BAS))
Date: 21 Jul 92 22:18:24 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Jul21.185938.20291@pony.Ingres.COM>, kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki) writes:

> 
> As trite as it may sound, the PROPER use of seat belts and shoulder
> harnesses cannot be overemphasized.

I agree with this, but I wish it was this simple.  I've never been able to 
get the shoulder harnesses in C-150s and 172s to stay attached to the lap
belt.  Just so we're all talking about the same type of harness, the type
I'm talking about is the manual, non inertia-reel harness with a fastener
that consists of a mostly flat metal plate with a cutout in it, and the 
cutout is supposed to fit into an interlocking peg on the lap belt.

The only way I can prevent the shoulder harness buckle from coming undone is
to adjust the harness so tight that I can't reach the panel.  Not very 
useful.  

So, is there any way to fasten/adjust those things so they don't come undone
every few minutes?
-- 
     Steve Pennypacker		     PP-ASEL

     spenny@wiley.ts.stratus.com     Stephen_Pennypacker@vos.stratus.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: burke@tss.com (Jim Burke)
Subject: Re: Bent Firewalls in General
Reply-To: burke@tss.com (Jim Burke)
Organization: Teknekron Software Systems. Inc.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:07:52 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.150835.21556@cbnews.cb.att.com>, tel@cbnews.cb.att.com (thomas.e.lester) writes:

|>     Seems that if you feel strongly enough about it, take it to a second
|>     mechanic. I'm sure you could find a mechanic to sign off on
|>     anything if you looked hard enough and paid enough.
|>     Just be sure thats REALLY what you want to happen.

I was never suggesting that anyone should shop around for an IA that would
sign off on anything for a bribe.  I'm sorry if what I posted made me
sound that sleezy.  I was just wondering what to do if a
previous IA said that something was trivial, while the next one says it is
so major as to make the airplane non-airworthy.  Seems to me you would end
up either _having_ to fix it, or pay for a whole new annual with another
guy which will probably cost more than just going ahead and fixing the
problem.  The point is that you are pretty much over a barrel, and while
I haven't encountered a verifiable rip-off by aviation maintenance shops,
I've had enough bad experiences with auto mechanics to make me a skeptic.

-- 

	Jim Burke	"Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!"
	Teknekron Software Systems		... burke@tss.com
  	phone:(415) 617-2432			... uunet!tekbspa!burke
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Subject: FliteMap $395 Moving Map Software
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 21:51:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

I just got my copy of AOPA Pilot today and I noticed an ad for
FliteMap moving map software for $395 for Mac/PC notebook
computers.  Intrigued, I called for more information and the
technician told me the phones were ringing off the hook today --
no surprise.  If this works as well as it looks on paper it
just might tempt an awful lot of us.   A PC or Mac notebook
with hard drive can be bought for $900 to $1500.  Add $395 for 
software and the price is an awful lot less than anything
else I have seen.  (Yes, I know it would not be certified
and would have to be for backup only.)

Anyway, the final missing link in the above setup is, of
course, an RS232-equipped LORAN or GPS system.  I
do not recall seeing RS232 mentioned in writeups I have
read of low cost handheld GPS/LORANS..... Probably this is because
they do not have RS232 connections, but I can dream :-)

Does anyone know of a low cost (i.e. < $1000 street price)
handheld LORAN or GPS which has an RS-232 connector?

Any thoughts in general about the above software?


  




-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com  
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: willcr@bud.sos.ivy.isc.com (Will Crowder)
Subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses (Was: Re: Cessna sholdr harn review (BAS))
Followup-To: rec.aviation
Reply-To: willcr@ivy.isc.com
Organization: Interactive Systems Corp.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:36:12 GMT

In article <greg.711776408@octopus>, greg@octopus.dpsi.com (Gregory R.
Travis) writes:

|> spenny@sw.stratus.com (Steve Pennypacker) writes:
|> 
|> >I agree with this, but I wish it was this simple.  I've never been able to 
|> >get the shoulder harnesses in C-150s and 172s to stay attached to the lap
|> >belt.
|> 
|> >So, is there any way to fasten/adjust those things so they don't come undone
|> >every few minutes?
|> 
|> There is supposed to be a small piece of soft rubber hose around the body
|> of the "knob" on the lap belt.  The rubber knob keeps the shoulder
|> belt yoke attached to the knob by friction.  If this rubber piece is
|> gone (very common - they break with age) then the thing won't stay
|> in place.

I initially responded to Steve's question by talking about what I do in
Cessnas (which is make sure the shoulder harness is coming in at a
decent angle, usually by moving the seat forward a bit).  Virtually
everyone else has referenced the "piece of plastic" or "rubber knob"
which is supposed to hold that darness shoulder harness buckle in
place.

So my question is, how many hours do you have to have before you're
likely to actually *see* one of these things?  I'm coming up on 270,
almost all of it in Cessnas of one flavor or another, and I've
*never* seen a shoulder harness with the apparently correct hardware!

:) :)

Will
PP-ASEL-IA
-- 
Will Crowder                        | "Any airplane you can't roll ain't
Senior Member of Technical Staff    |    no damn good!"
(willcr@ivy.isc.com)                |       -- Tex Johnston
INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.           |
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: dlevy@viper.engin.umich.edu (David W Levy)
Subject: Re: Temperature Related Altimeter Errors
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 09:03:18 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: dlevy@viper.engin.umich.edu


In article <49lmknk.rkaplan@netcom.com>, rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan) writes:
> In article <1992Jul27.200719.8467@ncar.ucar.edu> elmore@virga.ucar.edu 
> (Kim Elmore) writes:
> 
> 
> >>altimeter setting were established not by a barometric
> >>reading but by the weather man fiddling with his altimeter
> >>until it read exactly field elevation?

This is exactly how the altimeter setting is determined, more or less.

> >
> >	Ah!  Because of the Gas Law.  Lemme explain it...
> 
> > ...... Excellent and detailed explanation of meteorology omitted...

Agreed.

> 
> 
> The only time I truly want to know EXACTLY what my altitude
> is would be when I am on an instrument approach.  IN such
> a case, I would prefer to have my altimeter calibrated
> so that field elevation correlates with my altimeter
> setting as closely as possible.
> 

I thought that all minimum altitudes specified by the FAA for IFR use
(MDA, MOCA, etc.) included adequate safety margins even when pressure
altitude is lower than tapeline altitude on very cold days.  Anybody
know for sure?
From: mtc@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Mark Cousins)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:03:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: SJC ILS and ALS OTS until 5/31/93?
Organization: HP General Systems Division
Newsgroups: rec.aviation

In rec.aviation, haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes) writes:

>And AA keeps making noises about ceasing to use SJC as a hub, as they aren't
>making money there.

Next week I'm starting a project that will require me to commute from SJC to
SNA every week for the next four months.  Perhaps that will change AA's mind,
especially since at the moment they're the only choice for this route.

:-)

Mark

"In testing primality of very large numbers chosen at random, the chance of
stumbling upon a value that fools the Fermat test is less than the chance that
cosmic radiation will cause the computer to make an error in carrying out a
'correct' algorithm.  Considering an algorithm to be inadequate for the first
reason but not for the second illustrates the difference between mathematics
and engineering."  -- Abelson and Sussman, _Structure and Interpretation of
Computer Programs_

--
Mark Cousins                Hewlett-Packard Co.        mtc@hpsemc.cup.hp.com
HP-UX VAB programs    19055 Pruneridge Ave., MS 46T5
(408) 447-4659             Cupertino, CA  95014          FAX: (408) 447-4364
From: myers@ut-emx.uucp (Eric Myers)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Rudder pedals while driving???
Date: 24 Jul 92 21:34:03 GMT
Organization: Center for Relativity, University of Texas

In article <1992Jul21.133019.24177@ee.rochester.edu>
dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong) writes: 
>I imagine many of us had to fight the urge to steer the plane with the
>yoke while taxiing around. But the plane/car confusion that I had the
>hardest time shaking was the urge to check my rear view mirror while
>taxiing around.

Then you should have started in our Cessna 150, which has a rear
view mirror.

-- 
Eric Myers	"If God had intended for man to fly 
			He would have given us the brains to build airplanes."
Center for Relativity, Department of Physics, University of Texas at Austin
myers@emx.utexas.edu  |   myers@utaphy.bitnet   |   myers@ut-emx.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: joero@microsoft.com (Joe Robison)
Subject: Re: United flight's cargo door?
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:03:35 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.

In article <jcmorris.711658927@mwunix> jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org wrote:
> barrk@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Keith S. Barr) writes:
> 
> >In article <1992Jul16.203235.22436@news.nd.edu> ulick@angelico.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford) writes:
> >>I read something recently but I can't remember where about the door of the
> >>United 747 that became detached over the Pacific being found, and that
> >>it revealed new information about the incident.
> 
> >It was indeed found, and it confirmed that the latch had not been properly
> >engaged.  

...

> The door was recovered from the floor of the Pacific at a depth of
> approximately 14,200 feet.  (That's roughly 440 atmospheres of pressure!)

Talk about your needles and haystacks...how in the world did they find it?
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: ritter@claude.ma30.bull.com (Roger Ritter)
Subject: Re: "remain clear of the ARSA..."
Organization: Bull HN Informations Systems Inc.
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:19:18 GMT

glenb@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Glen Baker) writes:

>In rec.aviation, greg@octopus.dpsi.com (Gregory R. Travis) writes:

>>  Indy Departure:  "57E, Indy departure.  Remain clear of the ARSA.  What
>                      can I do for you?"

> OK, I realize that this gets discussed from time to time, but can 
> they *really* do this to you? By saying "57E, Indy departure" they've
> established radio contact and my (perhaps faulty) understanding is
> that they *can not* refuse permission to enter the ARSA.

Actually, they can *and do* refuse permission to enter the ARSA.  The FAA
thinking on this is that once two-way contact is established, you can
enter the ARSA, but you are also now bound by FAR 91.123(b), which says:
"Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to
an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."
So, when they tell you to remain clear of the ARSA, you must remain clear
of the ARSA.  

Around here (Manchester, NH), the 'remain clear' instruction is usually
used to give the controller time to get you a squawk code.  Once they
have you identified, they're generally pretty happy.  So, call from far
enough out and it's no problem.  Of course, this doesn't help your
situation, where you're launching from right outside.  

-- 
Roger Ritter N1FZZ (R.Ritter@ma30.bull.com) PP-ASEL, AGI
1946 Luscombe 8A N71983 "Rocky"
Sheep do not so much fly as plummet!        NH CAP: Profile 49

Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: raveling@Unify.com (Paul Raveling)
Subject: Re: United flight's cargo door?
Organization: Unify Corporation (Sacramento)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 19:52:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.030226.10959@microsoft.com>, joero@microsoft.com (Joe Robison) writes:
> 
> The Turkish DC-10 was not taken out by the loss of the cargo door directly;
> instead the pressure differential between the pressurized cabin and the
> now-depressurized cargo area under the cabin caused the floor to sag.
> The control cables run through the floor, and the sag was enough to bind
> the controls to the point where the pilots lost control.  This was a very
> early model of the DC-10; a similar accident occured with a prototype.
> Later models included a beefed-up floor to prevent this problem.
> (At least this is my recollection of the accident report; if there is new 
> information I'd be interested in reading it).

	Minor corrections:  Of the two DC-10 aft-cargo-door failures
	the first was on an American Airlines revenue flight, not on
	a prototype.  That flight landed safely despite jammed controls,
	and its captain sent a letter-to-the-editor of Aviation Week
	following the Turkish DC-10's crash in France.  The AA captain
	wrote briefly about their approach to saving their own bacon, and
	commented that he thought the Turkish captain would have had
	slightly better ability to control his aircraft than he had
	experienced in the AA incident.

	The first DC-10 quick fixes were to strengthen the aft cargo door's
	latching mechanism, to reduce the chance that gorilla-sized
	ground personnel could damage it.  The cabin floor beef-up
	followed shortly afterward.


------------------
Paul Raveling
Raveling@Unify.com
From: jimm@simsol.UUCP (Jim Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: "remain clear of the ARSA..."
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:50:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: simsol.166
Organization: Systems Simulation Solutions, Beaverton, OR

In article <Jul.27.09.49.45.1992.5685@pilot.njin.net>, ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie) writes:
> Unless, you're VFR.  Then you get no guarantee of any advisories
> or separation in ARSA's.  They exist purely for IFR handling.  In

I think I would have stated this differently.  In fact, ARSAs are
invisible to IFR aircraft. Therefore it may make more sense to say that
ARSAs exist purely for VFR handling. It is more correct to say that the
purpose of the ARSA is to force a situation that allows ATC to have
tighter control over the aircraft within the ARSA.  When I am VFR in an
ARSA or a TCA, although I know I am not guaranteed IFR separation, I am
certainly going to get more attention than I would get outside of an
ARSA. This is reassuring in the busy airspace that is protected by a
TCA or an ARSA.

TCAs and ARSAs are a fact of life associated with the fact that there
are more airplanes flying today.  Analogously, Yellostone National Park
is administered the way it is today because so many people want to
visit it. I find many of the rules restrictive in Yellowstone.  They
restrict my right to be wild and free in the outdoors.  However,
without these rules, Yellowstone would be a disaster.  It is just the
price we have to pay for living in a society in which the economy is
strong enough that it can support a large number of people being able
to fly or fly in an airplane.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: cep@taligent.com (Christophe Pettus)
Subject: Re: "remain clear of the ARSA..."
Organization: Taligent, a little subsidiary of two really big companies.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:46:42 GMT

In article <165@simsol.UUCP> jimm@simsol.UUCP (Jim Morris) writes:
>My guess is that what you really got is
>
>     "36Z Monterey Approach remain clear of the ARSA until radar identified"
>
>Usually, radar identification comes within about 1-2 minutes.  In the
>meantime, you do remember how to do turns about a point don't you?  I
>like ARSAs and TCAs. They are there to protect me.  I have flown
>through a few in my time and have NEVER been denied access when I
>really needed it.

Unfortunately, what he got was almost certainly "... remain clear of
the ARSA," based on my experiences with Monterey Approach.  While it is
by no means universal, many controllers at that facility choose to
treat their ARSA as a mini-TCA, with extensive delays for transitioning
VFR aircraft.

ARSAs and TCAs are there to reduce controller workload.  This is not an
inherently bad thing, but it does mean that VFR pilots more than
occassionally get left out in the cold.  This is one of those times.
Simplying telling someone to do "turns around a point" in an area close
to terrain is not especially useful.

At an absolute minimum, VFR aircraft who attempt to enter an ARSA and
are denied should receive an Expect Further Clearance time.  If that
time is unreasonable, it gives you something substantial to call the
facility about.
--
-- Christophe

"Be calm.  Look cute."
From: steckner@lri.uwo.ca (Michael Steckner)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Re: LK10's, TG-2's etc. (Soaring)
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:22:51 GMT
Organization: Relayed-by-Sendmail
To: rec.aviation@julian.uwo.ca

>>Also Ross Brigleb was known to carry a long stick at times.
>You see, there is quite some distance between the front and
>back seats in a TG-3.  As a matter of fact it is not possible
>to reach the pilot in the front from the back.  Ross had 
>experiences where students would freeze up on the stick.  So
>he would use the stick to "tap" the student and get them to let
>go and then he could get them out of whatever maneuver they
>had blundered into.

What Aland mentions is rather interesting. I heard (ie I cannot remember
source, accuracy etc etc) is that one club modified their two seaters
such that the front stick was mounted on a spring. The two halves of the
stick connected via a glass tube. If the student froze, a huge amount of
force/override from the rear seat would crack the glass tube. At that point
the student could freak all they want, but the spring centre of the stick
would render their thrashing ineffective. Sounds neat, but I am not sure
I would want to solo in a glider like that!!

Anyone else hear this story???
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: mpalmer@encore.com (Mike Palmer)
Subject: Re: United flight's cargo door?
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:13:33 GMT

kls@ohare.Chicago.COM (Karl Swartz) writes:

>The similar accident to which you refer did not occur with a prototype
>(no DC-10 prototype was constructed) but rather happened on June 12,
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Some say they are all prototypes, they still havn't got the "10" right yet!


Regards,	
Mike palmer    				Telephone: (305) 797-2326 (W)
email: mpalmer@encore.com               	   (305) 746-3146 (H)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: aviator@athena.mit.edu (Joakim Karlsson)
Subject: Re: "remain clear of the ARSA..."
Organization: Flight Transportation Associates, Cambridge, MA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:56:26 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.212730.220@hpcvusn.cv.hp.com> mark@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com writes:
>
>Certainly an ARSA is among those areas "in which air traffic control is
>exercised" (I think this is synonymous with "controlled airspace"), and
>"remain clear of the ARSA" certainly would constitute an instruction.
>Looks like a pretty tight case to me.
>
>Mark Rowe             email: mark@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com

Ah, but according to this argument the instruction to remain clear of the
ARSA would not apply until the aircraft was actually *inside* the ARSA. :)

So, I propose that it would be legal for the aircraft to penetrate the
ARSA, at which point you must comply with any instructions (which would
probably be to get the heck out).  Anyone care to validate my theory? :)
...Joakim "I should have been a lawyer" Karlsson
--
Joakim Karlsson            | aviator@athena.mit.edu
Flying Fanatic in Training | Air: PP-ASEL  CAP: Freedom 110 Mobile  FCC: N1JHW
                 "Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
                And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings"