HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Analysis of Homeopathy Literature
Date: 22 Jan 1993 22:29:18 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


Bernie,

I for one am going to want to continue discussing homeopathy in the
future, however I have other things I'm pursuing at the moment.

My interest in homeopathy is based on my own curiosity and what I
believe are positive results recieved from it. While I understand
that scientific proof is very important, I won't discontinue my
own personal experimentation because homeopathy doesn't see eye to
eye with current medical knowledge.

I have come to understand through this dialogue the limitations of
ancedotal evidence (or complete worthlessness if you must) in terms
of convincing someone of something they're not currently convinced of,
however for my own life and purposes, ancedotal evidence is very valuable
and currently more important (in terms of my personal use) than scientific
evidence.

I hope we will continue to discuss homeopathy in the future...

Greg

In article 93Jan22073235@elvis.stsci.edu, bsimon@stsci.edu (Bernie Simon) writes:
> I posted the list of controlled studies of homeopathy at the request
> of Dr. Kaplan. If it's considered improper to post a citation on the
> net without first reading it, please let me know and I will refrain
> from doing so in the future. My statement that the majority of
> controlled studies of homeopathy support its effectiveness is based on
> the statements in the BMJ survey. I have defended my interpretation of
> this survey recently, so there is no point in repeating it here. I
> invite all interested persons to read the survey themselves to see if
> I have misrepresented it. You're quite right that this prolonged
> discussion of the clinical evidence has grown tedious. I suppose it
> just shows what an incredibly stubborn person I am to have dragged out
> the argument for so long on sci.med and here. I would like to discuss
> other aspects of homeopathy and will gladly drop conversation on this
> topic if others will also.
> 
> "Clinical trials of homoeopathy.", Kleijnen, Jos; Knipschild, Paul; ter
> Riet, Gerben; British Medical Journal, Feb 9, 1991 v302 n6772 p516(8).
> --
> Bernie Simon 		What we know comes to so little
> (bsimon@stsci.edu)	And what we presume is so much  -- Neruda
> 		
>
From: echristo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Elena A Christofides)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Chiropractics?
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:54:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: magnus.1993Jan26.155424.3263
Organization: The Ohio State University

Right, which is why, earlier in my post I said "*most* MD's". Note I did not 
say "*all*" MD's.
I *never* said or implied that this was a universal rule. In two years when I 
get my MD (hopefully:)), I will obviously be an exception also.

:)
Elena
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: csfed@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Frank E. Doss)
Subject: Re: Chiropractics?
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:36:22 GMT
Organization: Eastern Illinois University

In article <1993Jan26.020234.24259@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> echristo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Elena A Christofides) writes:
>
>As a medical student who has her own chiropractor, they always give me hell
>when I go to the DC about "Do your colleagues know you're coming here?" In
>hushed tones...

I do recall a Chiropractor who was an MD, and went to the National College
of Chiropractic to become a DC.

>I've been going to a chiropractor since I was 16 years old. I like it. It helps
>in many ways. It should also not be abused, as is the general rule for most
>medical practices.
>
>Elena

There are many ailments that people needlessly suffer.  Most of these can
be wholistically treated with non-intrusive means.  If muscle weakness
accompanies sublaxations, cutting the muscles will not help.  Drugs will
not fix the problem.  That leaves manipulation.  Considering the years DCs
studying and practicing the art (?) of spinal manipulation, I would prefer
to put my spine in a DC's hands.

My DC sent me to an MD to have my hernia repaired and supervised my
post-op exercise and therapy.  When this same DC got cancer, he did not go
his son (another DC) for treatment; he went to an oncologist.  That was
after his internist told him that his breathing difficulty was a psycho-
logical problem.  

-Frank
Std Disclaimers
-- 
Frank E. Doss                            Academic Computing
csfed@ux1.cts.eiu.edu                    Eastern Illinois University
From: werner@cs.utexas.edu (Werner Uhrig)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: some people make this group a pain in the ...
Date: 23 Jan 1993 15:15:50 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: dimebox.cs.utexas.edu


	...well, whereever that those pain linkage points are to the human
	primary exhaust pipe.

	I subscribed because a lifelong friend got me interested in the topic.
	But as far as I can see (read), the principal "activists" in this group
	don't know to either keep their undisciplined heckling to private email,
	or have yet to learn to ignore those whose opinions they consider irrelevant.

	So what can a net-citizen do but unsubscribe?!?

	(Create and maintain a KILL-file...  yeah, well, I am considering it.
	 but I resent having to do the work for so little useful information as is
	 floating by in this group...)
-- 
  werner@cs.utexas.edu |  ..!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!werner | werner@UTXVM.bitnet

              "Free Advice and Opinions -- Refunds Available"
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med.nutrition
From: oldman@coos.dartmouth.edu (Prakash Das)
Subject: Re: Garlic Gelcaps
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 07:02:37 GMT

In article <mtymp15.728015222@staff.tc.umn.edu> mtymp15@staff.tc.umn.edu (David Hutton) writes:
>What exactly is garlic supposed to do for your health?
>

Besides ruining your breath, and endangering your health through
loss of friends, garlic lowers blood pressure, increase the level 
of HDL (ggod cholesterol), and decrease LDL (bad cholesterol). But
don't get too excited: You would have to eat more than 9 cloves 
a day to get an effect. BTW, most garlic gelcaps are of
little use because they haven't extracted in a certain, particular
way (I do not have my reference at hand) the essential oils from 
garlic. ONLY extracts which have been produced using
that method are useful.

-Prakash Das
--
HOOOO!
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Use of Alternative Health Care in the U.S.
Date: 28 Jan 93 19:46:04 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO


Use of Alternative Medicine in the U.S.

Associated Press

printed without permission from the Rocky Mountain News; 1-28-93

A third of all Americans seek relief from aches and pains outside
mainstream medicine, spending $14 billion a year on such therapies
as relaxation techniques and herbal cures, a survey suggests.

While that money is only one-60th of the total money spent on all
kinds of health care, the researchers estimate that Americans
actually pay more visits to providers of unorthodox treatments
than they do to primary care physicians.

The work suggests that Americans often bypass conventional medicine
when they want help for backaches, headaches, stress and other
complaints for which doctors too often lack the skills - or the
time - to cure.

"Some of these treatments are probably quackery," said Dr. Edward
W. Campion.  "Some of them are just the American version of the
health spa."

The most common of these therapies are, in order, relaxation techniques,
chiropractic, massage, imagery, spiritual healing, weight loss
programs, macrobiotics and other lifestyle diets, herbal medicine,
megavitamins, self-help groups, energy healing, biofeedback,
hypnosis, homeopathy, accupuncture, and folk remedies.

The level of use of unconventional therapies revealed by the surbey
is far higher than experts had thought.  And because some of these
therapies can be risky, the researchers recommended that doctors
routinely ask about them when taking medical histories.

The study was based on a nationwide telephone survey of 1539 adults.
It was directed by Dr. David M. Eisenberg of Boston's Beth Israel
Hospital and published in today's _New England Journal of Medicine_.

The study found that 34% of Americans said that they used at least one
unconventional therapy in 1990, and a third of these went to provider's
offices for treatments.

The typical patient is a well-educated, well-off white American, ages
25 to 49, most likely to live in the West.

Those who said they had seen providers made an average of 19 visits
per year.  The cost of one session averaged almost $28.

In all, Americans made 425 million visits to these people in 1990,
compared with 388 million visits to all family doctors, internists
and other physicians combined.


-- 
==============================================================================
	Dean Myerson     (aka dingo in boulder)     dean@vexcel.com
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Analysis of Homeopathy Literature
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:42:50 GMT

In article <BSIMON.93Jan22073235@elvis.stsci.edu> bsimon@stsci.edu (Bernie Simon) writes:
>I posted the list of controlled studies of homeopathy at the request
>of Dr. Kaplan.

You've done it elsewhere (sci.med) as well.

>If it's considered improper to post a citation on the
>net without first reading it, please let me know and I will refrain
>from doing so in the future.

"Improper" isn't the right word, _stupid_ is.  Listen: unless you're trying
to trivially refute a claim that no studies have been done, it's absolutely
meaningless to offer citations when you don't even have the first idea what
the papers referenced by these citations actually say, and beyond that is
the need to evaluate whether the paper itself is of reasonable quality.
As Kaplan said, most of these do not support the efficacy of homeopathic
treatment.

>My statement that the majority of
>controlled studies of homeopathy support its effectiveness is based on
>the statements in the BMJ survey. I have defended my interpretation of
>this survey recently, so there is no point in repeating it here.

Right, your "interpretation" bears no relation to what is said in the
paper--it's just a flight of fancy.  You can "defend" this all you want,
but if you try to use this "interpretation" as scientific support for
homeopathy, you're going to get called on it.

>I invite all interested persons to read the survey themselves to see if
>I have misrepresented it. You're quite right that this prolonged
>discussion of the clinical evidence has grown tedious. I suppose it
>just shows what an incredibly stubborn person I am to have dragged out
>the argument for so long on sci.med and here. I would like to discuss
>other aspects of homeopathy and will gladly drop conversation on this
>topic if others will also.

If you expect this to drop, I expect you will have to stop claiming
that there is strong evidence in the scientific literature for the
efficacy of homeopathy.
 
-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Subject: Re: Chiropractics?
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 00:53:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.153622.34101@ux1.cts.eiu.edu> csfed@ux1.cts.eiu.edu
 (Frank E. Doss) writes:

>There are many ailments that people needlessly suffer.  Most of these can
>be wholistically treated with non-intrusive means.  If muscle weakness
>accompanies sublaxations, cutting the muscles will not help.  Drugs will
>not fix the problem.  That leaves manipulation.  Considering the years DCs

That leaves manipulation?  How will that correct weakness?

How about exercise?

>post-op exercise and therapy.  When this same DC got cancer, he did not go
>his son (another DC) for treatment; he went to an oncologist.  That was

Yes, some chiropractors (particularly recent grads) limit
their practice appropriately.  But quite a number still
claim to be able to treat cancer, asthma, diabetes, etc.

In some states chiropractors want to be licensed to perform
pre-participation sports physical exams.  What qualifies
a chiropractor to determine that a patient does not have
a disqualifying cardiac condition?


-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com  
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: kkopp@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (koppenhoefer kyle cramm)
Subject: Ortho-bionomy
Summary: Any info on ortho-bionomy
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:35:33 GMT


   I was curious if anyone had experience with ortho-binonmy (sp?).  If
so, could you please post info, or email me. 

kyle
kkopp@cern.ce.uiuc.edu
From: mcg2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Marc Gabriel)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: LymeNet listserv group
Summary: New LymeNet Listserv group
Date: 22 Jan 93 05:02:31 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

Introducing...

******************************************************************************
*                The Lyme Disease Electronic Mail Network                    *
*                               LymeNet                                      *
******************************************************************************

Lyme Disease is now the fastest growing infectious disease in the United
States.  In 10 short years, this little known bacterial infection has claimed
half a million victims and the number of new patients continues to spiral
upward with no relief in sight.  It is estimated that in 1991, 100,000
Americans contracted this dangerous disease.  If left untreated, LD can cause
permanent nerve, musculoskeletal and cardiac damage.

Unfortunately, many in the medical and political arenas have not given this
epidemic much thought.  Self appointed experts in the academic community have
declared that LD can always be cured with short courses of simple antibiotics.
However, as the number of cases rise, doctors on the front lines are
discovering that LD is more serious that previously suspected, requiring longer
treatment therapies and more complex combinations of medicines.  The battle
lines have been drawn.

And the battles continue at LD conferences, and in the various State
legislatures where insurance companies, terrified at the high cost of LD, are
attempting to short change patients.  Estimates show that the average cost of
treatment for chronic LD patients ranges from $60,000 to $100,000 per patient.

MAILING LIST:
To keep up with the latest developments, including new treatment protocols,
research news and political events, we introduce the Lyme Disease Electronic
Mail Network.  LymeNet, in association with the Lyme Disease Network of New
Jersey, Inc., with provide you with a periodic newsletter with the latest
information.  All you need is an Internet- accessible e-mail address.

INTERESTED INDIVIDUALS INCLUDE:
      * LD patients
      * Friends or family of LD patients, who may wish to forward the
        newsletter to an LD patient
      * Interested members of the medical community
      * Interested members of the press


To subscribe, send a memo to Internet address  listserv@Lehigh.EDU
In the body type:

subscribe LymeNet-L <Your Name>

Please send problem reports to mcg2@Lehigh.EDU.


-- 
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
             Marc C. Gabriel '93    -  U.C. Box 545  -
               (215) 882-0138        Lehigh University
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: gordon@spot.Colorado.EDU (GORDON ALLEN R)
Subject: Re: anecdotal evidence - worthless?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:05:03 GMT

robert@kohlrabi.tcs.com (Robert Blumen) writes:

>It seems to me that there are many useful systems that fall somewhere in
>between anecodote and science.  Take Chines medecine, for example.  This
>was developed over a period of several thousand years (long predating the
>invention of modern statistical methodologies that allow meaningful studies
>to be done).  The developers relied on the regualarity of observation of
>many different cases over the carreers of many different people to select
>the things that worked best and weed out those things that don't.  

>Also, think of systems like Alexander technique or Rolfing.  The
>individuals who developed these systems did so by observing many different
>people and refining their ideas based on what worked and didn't.

>In these examples the development of systems is not 'scientifc' in the
>sense of doing large double-blind studies, but it is based on observation
>over a large sample and choosing things that seem to work with some
>regularity. 

With traditional chinese medicine (TCM), there is even are even more profound
differences with western scientific method.  When a TCM practitioner 'reads'
pulses (there are 12, 6 on each wrist that refer to different 'organ systems'),
the practitioner does not refer to tables of standard values as would a western
physician.  Instead, the practitioner refers to his/her own sense of the 
qualities of the pulses.  This may roughly correspond to a cardiologist 
listening to heart sounds. 

In a recent interview, Depak Chapra, MD, talked about westen medicine and 
alternatives.  He said he rarely prescribes medicine but uses other means, 
including ayurvedic medicine, homeopathy, herbs, meditation, etc.  He noted
that western medicine is good for acute disorders but does not really address
long term ones.  The western focus is on disease and symptoms, not health, 
which is more than the absense of symptoms.  If there's no symptoms, western
medicine has little or nothing to say.  His position is that the long term,
chronic maladies and health are the domains of the alternatives.

Perhaps then, the problem of the validity of double blind studies vs anecdotal
evidence lies here.  Let me propose that both are valid in their own domains,
with some areas of overlap.  The domain of the double blind studies might be
best found in acute care of disease, whereas anecdotal evidence lies in the 
longer term care and in the improvement of health beyond the absence of 
symptoms.

-- 
Allen Gordon 		         *If the folly of but one of us was changed to*
Research Associate         	 *intelligence, and divided amongst a thousand*
gordon@spot.colorado.edu   	 *toads, each would be more intelligent than  *
				 *Aristotle				      *
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Immunisation
Date: 28 Jan 93 07:13:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

In article <1993Jan28.054229.21506@trl.oz.au> farrell@rhea.trl.oz.au
 (Peter Farrell) writes:

>The difficulty that I have is the difference of opinion which appears to
>exist between the public health authorities and homeopaths. I have seen 
>some of the arguments by homeopaths about the side effects of vaccination 
>but I have not seen any attempts at rebuttals by  orthodox medicos. Does
>anyone know of a serious rebuttal.

This almost falls into the realm of a political decision
rather than a medical one in that it weighs the benefits
to one vs. the benefits to all.

For most diseases for which vaccinations are available,
epidemiologists aim at achieving a "herd" immunity; 
if more than a given percentage (very roughly 80%) of
a population is vaccinated then the odds of the disease
spreading throughout the population are low and the
few who cannot or will not be vaccinated for
medical or religious reasons are not significantly likely
to get the disease.

If (as is the case today in the United States) we
have achieved herd immunity for these diseases, then
it is arguable that for some vaccinations the risk
exceeds the benefits (as long as you do not plan 
to travel to other areas of the world).  But of course,
if everyone therefore decided not to be immunized,
we would lose this herd immunity in the population and
the unvaccinated would be at significant risk.

So the argument to not accept vaccination may be
correct, but if significant numbers of people begin
acting on this argument then it may lose its validity.
-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com
From: abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anthony Bulloch)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Cold Sores
Date: 23 Jan 1993 11:41:44 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <19JAN199315010382@cc.weber.edu> 
tscwhitehead@cc.weber.edu (Clarke Whitehead) writes:

>Can anyone give me a good remedy or prevention for cold sores?  I have used
>Lysine (1000 mg/day) for prevention, and larger doses at onset.  I also 
>used ice at the first tingling sensation, over-the-counter ointments and
>Zovirax (Prescription).  All these things seem to suppress it somewhat, but
>suppressing it often seems to result in a much worse breakout when it 
>finally decides to come out....
>
>Help!
>

My wife finds that the only thing that really helps with herpes
sores and fever sores is tea tree oil.  The formulation she uses
is made by Espial: they have it in a very handy gel form, which
is usually adequate - they also have the pure oil, and for the
more severe soars a dab of oil followed by the gel is very
effective.  And there's the added advantage that there are
no drugs involved.

Anthony Bulloch

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative