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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:42:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      :) holidays :)

CHRISTIAns everywhere

The time has come for me to hang up my keyboard for nearly 4 weeks. Last
time I had a holiday, I didn't have an office when I came back. Wonder what
I'll lose this time?

We're all stacked (the stuff won't go into the car til tomorrow morning) and
the kids even managed to get to sleep. So far.

Thanks for the prayers for Kyle, and some of the gems that have wafted past my
 eyes
over the last few months ( eg Ian's "painting for our Father" and the "overflow
not overwork" message recently).

I'm going nomail right after this. God bless and "see" you in 4 weeks

Regards
Ken D.
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 09:11:45 -0700
From:         jstahley@QUALCOMM.COM
Subject:      Re: JSTAHLEY address

>Dear JSTAHLEY ;
>
>I did not know quite how to figure out your name in your E-mail address.
>What is it??
>
>
>
>Jesse Carnes

IT IS JSTAHLEY@QUALCOMM.COM

THANK YOU FOR THE ATONEMENT SERIES.
                                JSTAHLEY@ATHENA.QUALCOMM.COM

                                RECEIVING INSPECTION DEPARTMENT
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:33:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      THE REMNANT OF HER SEED...

TOM, YOU HIT IT SO EXACTLY ON THE HEAD, THE NOSE DIDN'T EVEN GET MISSED.
YES, THE TRUE CHURCH, THE BRIDE AND BODY OF CHRIST, IS A MINORITY OF THOSE
CLAIMING TO BE CHRIST'S, AND THEY ARE SURELY THE REMANANT.

THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT IS ORIENTED AROUND A REMANANT OF ISRAEL, AND PAUL
MAKES IT CLEAR THAT THE ELECT ARE THAT REMANANT.

THANKS AGAIN, TOM, I'D ALMOST FORGOTTON THAT VERY IMPORTANT THING, MAYBE
I'M GETTING OLD.

DAN GRAHAM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: nabil@cae.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub)
Subject: Re: Tradition (was Re: Second parousia in the past?)
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 11 Sep 92 11:23:03 CDT

In article <1992Sep11.001442.1129@infodev.cam.ac.uk> gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.135830.20076@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, nabil@cae.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub) writes:
>
>> Here is another verse that supports the authenticity of Tradition :
>> 
>>    Acts 20:35    "I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that
>>    you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that
>>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 
>> To put things in context, St. Paul is speaking to the elders of the church
>> of Ephesus. The underlined part of the verse is quoted by St. Paul. To the
>> amazement of the anti-Tration folks, this proves that it is authentic since
>> this quote cannot be found anywhere in any of the four gospels. Morover, St.
>> Paul did not hear it firsthand, but it was probably passed to him by another
>> disciple. This is Tradition, pure, plain and simple! Scripture is an essential
>> part of Tradition, but it is not the whole thing. So in terms of set theory,
>> Scripture is a subset of Tradition.
>
>I don't think you chose a very good verse to support your claim. Surely there
>is a difference between "Fred told me that Jim told him that he heard Jesus
>say such-and-such" and "The Church says that so-and-so is true".

There is no difference under one condition; if the Church is Apostolic. 

>
>If, when the Church says that (for instance) Mary was a virgin all her life,
>and says that this is declared to be true by Tradition, does it mean that there
>is reason to believe that Jesus ever said that? Of course not.

True but if you have faith in your Chruch that the Tradition is true since the
Church is guided by the Holy Spirit (exactly like your faith that the Scripture
is authentic) then you believe in the authenticity of Tradition.

>
>In fact I'm not sure I follow your argument at all. It seems to be
>  1. Paul, on one occasion, quoted words of Jesus that aren't in the Gospels.
>  2. This is an example of "tradition".
>  3. Therefore, everything that the Catholic Church calls tradition is
>     authentic.

The main argument that can be proven from this discussion, is that the principle
of "Sola Scriptura" is not in accordance with what is in the Bible. I am not arguing
whether what the Catholic Church says is authentic or not. I'm not Catholic, and
I disagree with few things that the Catholic Church say.

>Eh?
>
>Incidentally I am not an advocate of "sola scriptura", at least not in any
>strong form. But I'm even less keen on the notion that some arbitrary choice
>of "tradition" is infallible...

If one has faith that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, then it is
infallible. I mean the Church as a whole and not any single person.

Irene pasi,

Nabil

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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 11:09:31 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: RE : Total Depravity

James writes:

<quotes of me deleted>

>At the risk of nit-picking, I point out that the Council of Orange
>is not an ecumenical council. Ecumenical councils presumably
>represent the whole Church. Orange was a Western regional council.
>It is important evidence of the currents of thought prevailing in
>the West at the time, but should not be called ecumenical.

OOPS!  Sorry about that.  Thanks for the correction!

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 09:48:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: Bishop Jenkins Quote.....

From:          Robert Weiss <PSYROBTW@EARN.UBVMS>
Subject:       Re: Bishop Jenkins Quote ....

>Carol,
>
>        I must say that I am disappointed.
>
>        You say that my source is mis-quoted. If it is I wish to know
>of it. Perhaps you could show me where it was misquoted? As it stands
>now, there is the allegation that my source is in error.
>
>        Yet there is no contrary address posted, just the assertion
>that it was wrong. I have no reason to doubt you, but I also have no
>reason to doubt my source. I have conflicting reports, one of which
>comes from you. Could you provide your proof please? Thank you.

Robert,

Sorry to disappoint - not intentional.

I do not now have copies of the addresses in question  - I cleared out
when I moved house last year and it didn't get this far.  I have also
checked with various freinds who normally have such things but I am unable
to obtain copies. If I had, I would have posted them complete.

I can only direct you to the original source - Bishop Jenkins' Office
which is where I obtained them originally.

It is very much a case that when these addresses are in full, what was
reported to have been said at the time by the British media (who took
only "sound bites") was not actually what was meant. I do not wish to
call your other source into doubt.  I only question if the British press
reports that were probably used as the basis for your source misled the
journal by their reporting only part of the text.

I have not read the journal you refer to and so have no wish to call
it into question. I can merely report what happened here at the time
and the way in which the story developed when people (myself and more
importantly, christian schollars) started to read the full texts.

I realise that this is probably not the reply you look for but I have
only memory to hand.  I cannot with present resources provide you with
what you wish provided.  Short of someone else on the List having a
copy of the addresses, I suggest you contact the primary sources, the
journal you refer to and Jenkins' Office.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Carol A Long,  					DISCLAIMER - unless otherwise
IT Service,					stated this message contains
Southampton Institute of Higher Education	my opinion...probably only mine
East Park Terrace,
Southampton	SO9 4WW,   England		RELEASE - Repost at will, with
	UK Fax No : (0703) 222259		acknowlegements to author.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
===============================================================================
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:17:30 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      prayer/thanks/praise

I know asking you all to pray for my daughter, Sarah,
was probably a bit much with all the problems in the
world and personal prayer requests but...

I'm glad I did...

Thanks to the Lord!!  and to all of you for your prayers, Sarah went
to church yesterday, went canoeing with a group from her
hall, played volleyball and is in generally great spirits!
She may be moving in with another student soon, they spent
Friday and Saturday together and Sarah is looking forward to
sharing a room with her :-)

And my anxiety for her has been much relieved.  Praise the Lord
and thanks muchly for all your good thoughts.

Maybe God takes care of the His easy tasks to get them out of the
way quickly.  Are there any mountains that need moved??

Carol Nemec
ya67@ferris
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:45:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject: Re: Chiropractor's

Yvette,
I concur with Toni - find one you can trust.  They can be extremely
useful practitioners.  However, if you are going to have your neck
manipulated or body chemistry adjusted, you really need to be able to relax
with the person involved.

Carol L
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X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:46:43 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Taking care of Mary--a question

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:11:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Re: The unelectable elect.

It does not follow that because God is sovereign he
abitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will
be damned.

God who can do whatever he pleases could also choose
to allow man to have the ability to choose.

Brian
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:56:54 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      RE:Seeking a Catholic Perspective

...so what about the guy who knows what he believes, doesn't agree with
Catholic teaching on every point, but believes that the Catholic Church is
*a* true church?

I think agreeing with every point any church makes would be difficult, a
church member should, however, believe in the basic "Creed" of the Church.

On your other question on additional Grace, a priest is a tool of God's
word, just as any minister.  He is a "father figure" to give advice on
spiritual matters based on the doctrine of the Church and will pose into
words the forgiveness of God when we ask for it.  Being a representative of
God, a priest CANNOT look down upon the person asking forgiveness nor
repeat anything said to him.

                                       Michele Lofton

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:06:16 EST
From:         "PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON" <Z$T@FCCJ.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Saving Work of Christ
              12 Sep 1992 11:46:25 -0700 from <jstahley@QUALCOMM.COM>

DEAR JSTAHLEY,

              PLEASE SEND ME THOSE FIVE INSTALLMENTS PLEASE.  MY ID IS Z$T@FCCJ
.

                YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST,

                                     PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 17:09:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      The elect

Dear Lon,

>Regarding the belief that the doctrine of election necessarily
>means that God not only elects some people to salvation but also
>elects other people to condemnation:

>I think that this view fails to understand what election is all
>about.  What needs to be understood is that we are all deserving
>of condemnation, but God in His great mercy saves some of us.  We
>shouldn't marvel at the fact that God condemns the wicked -- after
>all, that's just simple justice.  What's so marvelous is that God
>saves anyone at all.

I know that those who believe in predestination/election look at it
from this viewpoint, but doesn't it imply what I said?  I mean, if
God arbitrarily includes some in the class of those that are elect
does he not also arbitrarily include others in the class of the
non-elect (damned)?  Would you say that a judge in a criminal court
is just if he arbitrarily acquits one prisoner and condemns another?

(I don't really think this is true of God, what I do think is that
those who do believe this draw conclusions about the sovreignity (sp?)
of God that are not justified from scripture.)

Brian
From: rpgrant@vax.path.ox.ac.uk
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Newsweek: Gays Under Fire
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:34:12 GMT
 <1992Sep13.034413.4987@gboro.glassboro.edu> <18vdm9INNic@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> <1992Sep15.005441.1820@gboro.glassboro.edu>
Organization: Oxford University Molecular Biology Data Centre
Nntp-Posting-User: rpgrant

> Darren F Provine : 
> Has anyone here ever actually been told by a homosexual that he/she should
> `convert'?

Maybe not in as many words, but there was a time at college (especially as 
member of an active - and some would have said "subversive" - Christian Union) 
a couple of years ago when we felt like wearing little pink triangles 
proclaiming 
"Why assume I'm homosexual?"
.....

I hope this doesn't sound too facetious.

With Love in Him,

Richard Grant
Sir William Dunn School of Pathology,
OXFORD

RPGRANT@vax.path.ox.ac.uk
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 09:57:10 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      jill...

 I hope you're doin' ok! I'm also "new" (I guess) to the system.
 "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Tradition
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:18:46 GMT

In article <01GOFTXCVVPC0005KX@LIFE.UAMS.EDU> BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU writes:
>My view is that doctrinal truth should be determined from Scripture alone.
>I cannot accept the authority of any body of believers as being sufficient
>to establish it.  As I see it, their is no scriptural basis for any body
>of believers having authority to speak infallibly for Christ

   My first question is this: by whose authority do you know that
Scripture has authority?  If you really get all your doctrinal truth
from Scripture, where did you get as doctrinal truth the idea of
Scripture alone?  It certainly is not in the Bible.  Where the Bible
tells one where to get one's doctrinal teaching, it contradicts
"Scripture alone" by saying to heed the oral traditions as well as
what is written.

   My second question is how do you know how to interpret Scripture
properly?  Many people say the Holy Spirit helps them to do so, but
they somehow some up with conflicting interpretations.

   I'm not saying that Scripture does not have authority.  However,
the Church tells me that it has this authority.  Without the Church,
whose authority comes from Christ, having canonized it we would not
know that it has this authority.  Nor would we be able to know for
certain how to interpret Scripture.

   Finally, define Scripture for me.  That is, tell me what books
belong to Scripture.  How do you know these books belong to Scripture?
Scripture does not tell you what books belong to it.  Even if it did,
that would make its authority circular, i.e. you would be believing
something only because it told you to believe it.  The same would be
true if the Bible were to tell you that it is the sole rule of faith
(which it doesn't say).  It follows, then, that you are instead
putting your faith in those men who told you what books belong in the
Bible, and what the proper translations of those books are.

   Do you know these men who determined what belongs in the Bible?
It's an important thing to know, because they are the ones in whom you
are putting your faith.

   The canon of Scripture was determined by the Church over 1500 years
ago, by the Catholic/Orthodox Church.  This canon was not contested
for over 1000 years, when Luther decided to drop a few books that
supported doctrines he wished to do away with.  So one either accepts
the canon according to Luther (one man, who broke away from the
Catholci Church), or one accepts the canon defined by an ecumenical
council by the Catholic/Orthodox Church more than 1500 years ago.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: scripture/tradition
Date: 12 Sep 92 14:00:14 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

For a little more discussion, here is an interesting quote from _The Teachings
of the Holy Orthodox Church_, by Rev. Michael Azkoul, Ph.D. published by
Dormition Skete in 1986:

"The New Testament is not the only "scriptures." The nineteenth century Russian
Orthodox philosopher, Alexi Khomiadov (1804 - 1860), was right when he wrote
that there "are no limits to our Scripture and every writing which the Church
acknowledges as Her own is Holy Scripture.  Such pre-eminently are the Creeds
of the General Councils...wherefore the writing of Holy Scriptures has con-
tinued to our day, and if God pleases, yet more will be written." p.12 ibid.

So maybe we need to define what we mean by Scriptures?

Most of all, I hope that the living letters continue to be written...that is,
I hope we are all striving through the Power that dwells in us to live holy
lives.  This is the only Book that some will read.  It is the sign instituted
by the Lord so that the world may come to a knowledge of Him.

Peace in Christ, the Living Word, zane.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:15:00 CST
From:         "A wounded heart must be gently understood...CP..."
              <MUELLERPA@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Upcoming U.S. presidental election (general)

Hi Steven,

   I am not sure that I understand fully - do we just send a mail message
   to the internet address and ask for whatever they have concerning the
   candidates views on ALL issues they have available or do we send some
   kind of formalized command that will retrieve what we want??

   Forgive my ignorance of the issue ??


                         Paul M.

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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:28:36 CDT
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      chiropractor

My husband got a back injury playing football in school. Over the years it
gave him some problems, but each time he went to a chiropractor and that
fixed him up for another 6 months or more. He never went to the
chiropractor for other things--but in this limited area he received
complete satisfaction.
Carol Slingo
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 21:52:26 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Paul's Epistles

This evening as part of our after-dinner Bible reading, we  read the
following selection from R.C. Sproul's _Tabletalk_ devotional magazine:

  Modern Pauline scholars sometimes say that Paul was not really
  a systematice theologian but a "task theologian."  They point out
  that none of his letters, not even Romans, is set out as a systematic
  theology.  Rather, every letter addresses a particular church in her
  own intimate and particular circumstances with her own particular
  problems.  The book of Romans, though full of theology, is largely
  devoted to a discussion of the relationship of Jew and Gentile.

  We must say, though, that God in His providence brought pre-
  cisely those problems into the early churches that would cause
  Paul to develop biblical theology properly.  In other words, the
  problems that Paul addressed were not accidental and were not side
  issues.  Rather, the problems God set before him were precisely
  those central issues that systematic theology deals with.
                           _Tabletalk_ (August 1992), 16(8):43.

I reproduce this quote because I feel that it sheds light on a number of
topics currently under discussion on the list, such as whether Paul's
comments on homosexuality apply only to the specific situation which he
was addressing or whether they constitute part of the fundamental teaching
of Christianity, or, more generally, whether one can apply the specific
answers to specific problems found in the epistles of Paul (and others)
to more general questions.  If one takes the view set forth in the above
selection, one can say that under the providence of God, Paul's specific
answers to specific questions do in fact address more general theological
and moral questions.

BTW, our family has been using _Tabletalk_ as our pattern for daily
Bible readings for the past few years, and we have found it very
helpful and beneficial.  I'd recommend it to anyone.  The address:

   Tabletalk
   Ligonier Ministries
   P.O. Box 547500
   Orlando, Florida 32854-7500

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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