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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 10:32:25 -0500
Comments:     Resent-From: "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Comments:     Originally-From: MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was CHRISTIA@ASUACAD
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Michele Lofton Says:
******************************
You think her post was offensive in the *extreme*, but I don't see any
difference between her "public assult" and your "public rebuke".

You can call what Pat said whatever you want:  hyperbole, over-enthusiasm,
getting carried away, a white lie, fibbing, a fish story, tall tale, etc.
As a public figure, Pat Robertson and others have the responsibility of
getting the facts straight.  However, Pat Robertson, 700 Club, Rush Limbaugh,
etc. have bias and agendas, which disregard the rules  of objectivity that
is a necessity in reporting.  This is the reason why I consider their "facts"
as commentary.
IMHO, you should not get any special treatment of having other correspondence
by private e-mail after assulting someone in writing with the excuse of
defending a man of God.  First of all, your "public rebuke" was still an assult
on an personal level.  Second, "a man of God" makes mistakes like everyone else
and needs to be called on them.
************************************
Mark Jones replies.....

Michele, Im not going to try to defend my post. You read it, make of it
what you will. Out of respect for Steve, I just don't want to re-hash
the Pat Robertson issue.

As far as any special treatment goes: I was talking about correspondence from
my machine. If I felt the need to amplify or discuss what I said, it would
go privately to the individual(s) involved. No "hiding" or "special treatment"
intended. Feel free to address me publicly or privately.

Mark
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 11:09:00 EDT
From:         ALICE LOO <LOOT@SNYSYRV1.BITNET>
Subject:      China news alert!

Please continue to pray for China!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. China Population Woes Grow ........................................... 26
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forwarded by: Deming
Source: AP, 1/24/1993

BEIJING -- More than 64,000 government officials and employees violated
family planning policies in China's eastern Henan province, an official
report said Sunday.

The Xinhua News Agency report in the People's Daily illustrated the diffi-
culty China faces in controlling its population of more than 1.1 billion.

A 1990 census showed that more than 2 million people in Henan were not
registered, in an apparent attempt to avoid penalties for violating family
planning policies that generally permit only one child per couple.

The report said that in the autumn of 1991, the province began an investi-
gation and found more than 64,000 officials and state employees, some in the
upper echelons, had broken family planning laws.

The report was meant to praise provincial investigators for helping to stem
Henan's population growth, but it also made clear that family planning poli-
cies are widely ignored.

Henan is China's second-most populous province, with more than 85 million
people, and authorities there believe family planning is crucial to promote
economic growth, the report said.

Henan family planning rules, announced in 1990, allow urban couples to have
a second child only under rare conditions, such as when the first child is
deformed. Conditions are more lenient for rural couples, who can try again
if their first child is a girl "and the family truly encounters difficul-
ties because of this," according to the regulations.

The family planning rules prohibit early marriages and births outside of
wedlock. Birth control measures are mandatory for fertile couples once
their quota of children is met, and sterilization of either the husband or
wife is mandatory if they have two or more children.
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Lovelace
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:41:06 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Madge,  I haven't read Lovelace in any depth, only while browsing once in a
little Christian bookstore in Centralia Washington.  I am sure if you ask
your favorite bookstore person to order the books for you they will be happy
to.  I think I have seen some of his stuff in Christianity Today Magazine
in the past too.

I read somewhere that his conversion was helped along by his reading of
Thomas Merton's book, The Seven Story Mountain.  Do you know anything about
that?  I wonder how many protestants read Merton.

If you have the time, could you let me know by e-mail what Lovelace's idea
is about spiritual growth and continual renewal.  A brief synopsis.

Peace in Christ Who is our Peace, zane of dhahran.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:41:14 -0600
From:         Theodore Penn <U59919@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: KJV
              21 Jan 1993 08:16:00 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

On Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:16:00 -0500 Eric James Ewanco said:
>Excerpts from christia: 20-Jan-93 Re: KJV Theodore Penn@asu.edu (2574)
>
>> One translation to _DEFINITELY_ stay away from is the 'new world
>> translation'. This is a translation done by the mormons and they
>> re-write the scriptures to the way they want them to read, so that it
>> looks like the mormons are right.
>>
>Jehovah's Witnesses, not Mormons.
>
>Eric

O.K.  That only proves that I'm human, and prone to make mistakes.
I was reminded that it was the jehovah's witnesses instead of the mormons
at a bible study later wednesday night.

The church is not a museum for saints,
but a hospital for siners.
--------------------------------+------------+---------------------------------
Theodore Penn                   |  <><   <>< | University of Illinois at
U59919@uicvm.uic.edu  Internet  |    ><>     | Chicago - Computer Science Dept.
U59919@uicvm          Bitnet    | <><  <><   | Go Against the Flow.
(312)237-0096         Phone     |  <><  <><  | I am a Stranger to this World.
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:41:19 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Praying in tongues (was Re: centering prayer...)

Russ,

"Praying in tongues" is a basic practice of charismatic/pentecostal churches/
movements. The Christian Renewal in the Holy Spirit recognizes three kinds
of gifts of tongues:

Glosolalia: Utterance inspired by the Spirit in a non-inteligible 'language'
            Genrally for intersesion of full-blown worship/praise.
            Scripture base: 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14.

Interpretation: The Spirit inspires the meaning of the Glosolalia utterance
            generally to other person. Same Scripture.

Xenoglosia: Speaking in foregin languages that were not known by the person.
            Scripture basis: Act 2.

Feel free to ask if you're interested in something else.

Shalom,
Memo.
PS Praying in tongues is some of the finest things in Christian Spiritual
   Life. Thank you Lord !
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 09:13:16 NZT
From:         Sandy Sartorelli <sandy.cit@MHSGATE.CIT.AC.NZ>
Subject:      Re: March for Life

Please ignore the 1st three lines, folks.  I am informed our
shareware is paid for - it's just a communications glich.

> Saturday I attended a March for Life convention.  I'm not going to
go > into details, but I will mention that one speaker said that after


The issue of abortion is one that evokes strong feelings in many of
us.  It is always encouraging to see Christian people standing up of
what they believe in - so many times we are guilty of making moral
judgements from our armchairs.  Actions speak louder than words, like
the bible says, ' by their fruits you will know them'.  I am glad you
posted on this .


 > I went to Washington by train and arrived in time to visit the Li-
> brary of Congress Friday morning.  There is a special exhibit of
> items from the Vatican Library that is worth seeing.  I rented a tape
> recorder with a description of the exhibits.  It took about an hour
> to go through the exhibit.  The exhibit will be there until April 30.
> This is not a travelling show that will go to other libraries or
> museums around the country.  After April 30 it goes back to Rome.
>
This sounds really interesting.  Care to tell us more about it Marty?

Cheers,  Sandy Sartorelli
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandy Sartorelli                Internet: sandy.cit@mhsgate.cit.ac.nz
                                              MHS: sandy@cit via nhub
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:34:00 CST
From:         MB09@SWTEXAS.BITNET
Subject:      Mormon/LDS

Hello,

A very close and dear friend of mine has recently been baptized in the church
of Mormon.  He was Roman Catholic.  I am having a hard time with his
conversion.  I would like to know more about this church.  I always hear so
many bad things about it, and would like to know why it is looked on so badly.
When I ask my friend questions, he has an answer for everything and his
answers are telling me that this church isn't as bad as everyone thinks.  I
would like to get some perspective from members of CHRISTIA who are Mormon
and those who aren't and know a lot about the church.  Deep down I feel that
he has made a mistake, but I want to be supportive at the same time.  It is
hard when all I hear are so many bad things.

Thanks in advance!

May Christ's Peace and Love be with you,

Michelle
      _|_
       |
"With God all things are  possible."  Matthew 19:26

*******************************************************
* Michelle R. Bruce                                   *
* Programmer I                                        *
* Southwest Texas State University, San Marcos, Texas *
* about 30 miles South of Austin, Texas               *
* and 40 miles North of San Antonio, Texas            *
*******************************************************
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:47:05 CST
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Nuts and Bolts...

I'll tackle this all at once.  I have several points of interest to
address.
---------------
First of all, Thanks so much for your prayers concerning the Addisons.
I was not able to get to church last night, due to area roads being
under lots of water...my Dad and mom didn't even go -and they're
serving as the music ministers there!!!- but, there are other folks
who live closer to the church, and don't have to drive 45 minutes
to get there.  I'm sure that even without us there, Teri and David
had the support of those present.  I've been told that the funeral is
tomorrow at 2:00 Central time.  The sunshine has shown its glorious
face after 4 days of constant rain, so maybe tomorrow it will shine
on us there, and maybe lift spirits a LITTLE BIT...sheesh.
Keep Prayin' gang... Richburg Baptist needs it right now.
Brother Miley (our pastor) won't be looking forward to this task...
--------------
There's a thread concerning self-defense that I'd also like to
address...
I'm from the Southern United states...and here in Mississippi, there
is very strong support for the NRA (National Rifle Association). My
Dad, as stated above, is a minister of music.  Yet, if there were
someone tryin' to invade on our space, and threaten the lives of
those he loves, he'd pull his pistol, or .270 Browning, and either
say, "Get out of this house...", or if they didn't comply with THAT
request, I'm sure he'd probably shoot close to their foot, or something
to scare 'em off... if THAT didn't work, and the "thug" wanted to
"Get smart" (i.e.  try to attack us)  I do believe my Dad would shoot
an arm, or leg...or in life-threatening situations, he'd shoot to kill
if he knew for CERTAIN we were in DEEP TROUBLE.
As a Christian, a STRORNG FAMILY MAN, and NRA member, he's shown my
Mom, and the three of us gals how to shoot rifle, and pistol.
(Man, can I remember tryin' to blow a hole through an empty milk
carton...)  My Mom is licensed to carry a pistol in her car.
(There's a difference between concealed weapon, and THE LICENSE
to carry that weapon...she's got the right to defend herself, and she'll
do it-in a heartbeat).
I'm glad I have a Dad that cares enough to teach us how to SAFELY
handle firearms.  If I have to relocate later to find a job in the
music industry, count on "the G" carrying a pistol with her when she
goes-strictly for self-defense situations.
I wouldn't shoot anyone just for the heck of it....that's murder, and
murder-according to the BOOK, is VERY UNCOOL.
--------
Just a few thoughts.
Theresa

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 10:22:28 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reflections of One Long Absent

What a beautiful and moving word from Kerry Stephenson. Thank you. With your
permission, I intend to read this tormorrow morning in the meeting of our
church.

God Bless!

Jim Coen
coen@acc.wuacc.edu
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 07:37:27 CST
From:         Russ Neumeier <russn@SSEC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Do other people see this....?

Everyone,

I got in this morning and started to read my mail, but on the CHRISTIA list
there are posts to a physics group, a woman's studies group, and a group about
vampires....?  Am I the only one getting these messages?  The headers say
that they are being sent to CHRISTIA.....Hmmmmmm.


Russ
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Neumeier       | I'm not ashamed to let you know, I want this light in
russn@ssec.wisc.edu | me to show.  I'm not ashamed to speak the name....
SSEC, UW-Madison    | of Jesus Christ ---- The Newsboys
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 03:01:20 -0500
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      prayer request for guidance

Morning:

The church I have been attending has turned out to be a cult.  Several
former members and I are meeting this weekend with some others who
have come out of similar churches to discuss what we (whether that
means as individuals or as a group has yet to be determined) will
do next.

Essentially, we are talking about a room full of people absolutely
determined to serve the Lord--and absolutely without a clue as to
how He wants us to go about doing so.  I have a feeling this could
be a very important meeting, and I would ask that you would pray for
us, that God would be with us, work through us, speak to us, that
whatever He's got in mind might be done.  There are some difficult
issues for some of the members to work out, and I hope that we all
together can help each other do so.

I don't want to go into all the details right now.  Suffice to say
that we recently discovered that, since we were still "converts"
to the church and not fully received "members," the church held that
we were not *Christians.*  In fact, *anyone* who does not belong
to *this particular church* is held to be not a Christian.  And those
who leave the church are believed to be "without the Spirit."

Folks, let me give you a little lesson here.  I went to this church for
two months, and in all that time, I never saw *anyone* pray, except
over food (silent prayer).  Here's a little rule of thumb from me:
"If they don't pray, don't stay!"  The other night when I and two of
the other departing members met, we prayed together, and I don't know
exactly what, but *something* happened.  I knew then that there must
be something wrong with a church that has no spiritual power in it.
We intend to pray a lot this weekend, and I don't know what might
happen.

As some of you may know, I used to be charismatic (in the religious
sense, not the social sense :-) ), but lately I have questioned
(thanks to church teaching) both the reality and the necessity of that
experience.  Now...I don't know.

And now I'm in a funny position with charismata, because I am not closing
off the possibility that God may wish to act through me in this way; at
the same time, I don't want to "think" my way into something false (if
you know what I mean).  Add to that the fact that *all* of these people
are coming out of a church that rejects such an experience + the
(increasingly strong) feeling I have that I may this weekend do just
that, and you have the recipe for one very weird weekend coming up.

Please pray.  I want to follow God, whatever that means, and whatever
the consequences may be.  Pray for strength, guidance, and a clear
leading, that we may all come back from Ohio with a greater understanding
and stronger hearts for God.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:00:46 -0500
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Feeling old (was Re: Segregated churches)
              22 Jan 1993 12:49:00 MST from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU>

I was in 7th grade when Kenedy was shot...
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 11:25:13 CST
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      tithes and marriage

As an older person (preschooler at Pearl Harbor folks) I would like to make
a comment on tithing.  It is my opinion that if you are getting married,
and have not or do not come to an agreement about tithing beforehand, you
will have endless hassles afterward.

In Christ,

Carol
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:50:06 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: question about unborn babies

Excerpts from christia: 22-Jan-93 question about unborn babies "jones,
mark"@asu.edu (2276)

> I hesitate to even bring up something I learned from Hollywood...but
> does anyone ever remember seeing the flick "The Seventh Sign" with Demi
> Moore? This was the first time I had ever heard of the concept of "The
> Guff" where the souls of babies reside before being conceived into the
> womb of a woman. I know for a fact that there is nothing about this in
> my Bible. But somehow I take it that it may come from some of the
> Apocryphal books, or it may be connected with Catholic tradition.

>  Please understand, Im not blasting it. It may have been a Hollywood
> creation for all I know. But if it is a part of anyone's theology or
> tradition, I would just like to learn a little bit about it. Where is
> The Guff desribed? On what authority? Is it orthodox or more legendary
> belief?
>
There is absolutely nothing in Catholic tradition even of the sort; in
fact, the church in the 3rd century condemned Origen's proposed idea of
pre-existence of souls.  Souls do not exist until conception.

As to where it comes from, my guess is quasi-occult, mystical, or folk
traditions outside of Christian theology.  I've seen references to the
Guf before.  Probably comes from the same place Leprechans and fairies
come from.

Eric
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:14:15 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      A poll on praying.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: riipinen@dxcern.cern.ch (Petri Juhani Riipinen)
>Subject: A poll on praying.
>Organization: CERN European Laboratory for Particle Physics
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 10:49:34 GMT

Shalom!

I have a (christian?) friend, who thinks, that it is enough, if we only pray
once about something and then forget it. He says, that God knows our needs
and will respond accordingly. On the other hand, I feel that we should really
be patient and pray day after day something. I don't think that God wants it
so, that we send a wish to Him and then forget it.

But anyway, how do you feel about this? I wish to do a little poll. So,
please
answer me via email, and I will do a summary, if there are enough answers.

Fill in:

   ( ) I pray God only once for something and trust that He knows my needs
       best.

   ( ) I pray God often for the same thing and believe, that He expects me
       to pray for the things, although He knows what I need.

   ( ) None of the above. What: ___________________________________________


   On what bible reference do you base this believe?



Thank you,
          - Petri J. Riipinen -
--
Petri~J.~Riipinen~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(riipinen@dxcern.cern.ch)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Les~terrases~de~Thoiry~n.15~~~~~~Renginpolku~1~~~~~~~~~~~~~~at~13.2.02~~~~~~~
01710~Thoiry,~~France~~~~~~~~~~~~28450 Vanha-Ulvila,~Finland~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+3350208289~~~~~~until~10.2.92~~~"Opinions expressed are my own etc..."~~~~~~
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:49:00 +0000
From:         ga921008@MCIS.MESSIAH.EDU
Subject:      Mormon/LDS

Michelle:

Here is a short rundown of the more serious heresies of LDS:

-They believe that Christ is the brother of satan
-they think we will become gods after our death
-until recently, they taught that black people were inherently evil
-and of course, they accept a 19th century forgery, the Book of Mormon,
 as Scripture.


I have talked to a Mormon missionary (whom I met when I was street witnessing,
incidently, ) and one of their tactics is to convince you that the LDS are
Christian when in fact their own doctrine shows otherwise.

--Greg Aist
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:40:11 -0500
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: what to do about money!

Scott,

You pray about it of course!