HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oj@miki.pictel.com (Oliver Jones)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Drawing w/clipmask to obscurred window doesn't draw!
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:56:34 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: PictureTel Corporation

Date: 11 Sep 92 18:41:58 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep11.184158.3825@miki.pictel.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <4ssn2pm.richm@netcom.com>, richm@netcom.com (Richard Mauri) writes:
> I have a motif drawing area widget (destination window)
> that I draw vectors to with XDrawSegments() using a gc 
> w/o a clip mask. Then I draw a filled rectangle using 
> a gc with a clip mask....
> The problem is when
> the destination window is obscurred at the time of drawing,
> and then the destination window is exposed, only the segments,
> not the clipmasked rectangle, get redrawn. Backing store
> isn't doing it's job and I get no expose events either!

I take it things work properly if you disable backing store by setting
it to NotUseful? ("Properly" means your program receives and processes
the Expose event generated when the destination window is exposed.)
If so, this is your workaround.  If not, I'd try to find out what's
going on with your client before looking to the server as the source
of the problem.

In article <18n56rINN2df@fbi-news.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE> 
   klute@heike.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Rainer Klute) quotes 
   from the Xlib spec:

>From chapter 3.2.4: ...
>While the X server maintains the window's contents, Expose events
>normally are not generated, but the X server may stop maintaining
>contents at any time.

I always thought this meant that the server was supposed to 
start generating Expose events again at the time it chose to 
"stop maintaining" backing-store contents.  In particular,
I thought the word "while" meant "during the time."

It's possible Richard Mauri has found a bug.  I would have thought
that the act of filling a rectangle through a GC clip (or any other
drawing) into an obscured part of a window should have one of two
effects:

1) draw correctly into the backing store
2) cause the server to decide to stop maintaining the
   backing store, therefore causing it to perform
   expose processing the next time the obscured part
   of the window became uncovered.

I didn't think the server had the option of BOTH ignoring a draw
operation to backing store AND omitting subsequent expose processing.
It's hard to imagine how a client would have the slightest chance of
maintaining valid visible window contents under these circumstances.

Can anyone clarify this?  Am I missing something?
From: pete@frosty.Rational.COM (Pete Coe)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: mit X11R5 server on RS6000/AIX3.2
Date: 11 Sep 92 07:07:01 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Date: 10 Sep 92 05:55:46 GMT
Message-Id: <pete.716104546@frosty>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.unix.aix

We are trying to get the mit X11R5 server built for our RS/6000's.  What we have
ended up with is a server that appears to work, but an xinit that will not talk
to it.  Typing xinit brings up a server, but a log file for xinit indicates that
the server is not accepting connections.  However you can target xterm's etc to
the display.  Eventually xinit gives up and kills the server.  We have upto
patch 17, but nothing seems to affect this.  Does anybody have some idea of what
to do about this.
--
--                                    
-- Pete Coe
-- Rational
-- Object-Oriented Products
From: M5RDBREG%UTFSM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu (1)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: I have a question....
Date: 15 Sep 92 23:26:18 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Message-Id: <9209152252.AA20380@Athena.MIT.EDU>
Date:     Tue, 15 Sep 92 10:27:46
Reply-To: <M5RDBREG%UTFSM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu>

I have the following problem:
   I am workink with OSF/Motif and I have a "drawing area" widget. In
this widget I work with X (X11R4). I need to install a new colormap
in this window (drawing area widget) but I can't.
   For to install the colormap I execute the following instructions:
       1. XSetWMColormapWindow
       2. XCreateColormap
       3. XStoreColors
       4. XSetWindowColormap
   My problem is that the window manager don't install the new
colormap in the drawing area widget.
   If you have any suggestion please contact me personally to my
email, because I don't subscrite to this list.

        Javier Ruiz-del-Solar
         Computer Laboratory
  Department of Electronic Engineering
Technical University Federico Santa Maria  (CHILE)
      email:m5rdbreg@utfsm.bitnet
From: pereckas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (pereckas michael s)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Free software and the future of support for Diamond products
Date: 8 Sep 92 00:05:21 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 23:11:51 GMT
Message-Id: <Bu8Drt.2Ls@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.sysv386,comp.windows.x,comp.os.linux,comp.os.mach,comp.unix.bsd

mem@mv.mv.com (Mark E. Mallett) writes:

>Just as an aside, I have had to boot MSDOS to configure at least 2
>cards for my ISC machine.  Both were Ethernet cards: the 3c503 and the
>WD 8013 (er, SMC Ethercard Plus Elite).  Imagine my surprise (and, I'm
>sure, that of many) to find that there was no facility for this under
>UNIX, and that I had to go out and buy a copy of MSDOS.

>I have also had to boot MSDOS just to run the diagnostics on nearly every
>card.

Just think of MS-DOS as a super ROM monitor that isn't in ROM, or a
special hardware diagnostic/configuration mode.  :-) :-) :-)


-- 
Michael Pereckas     pereckas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Have you used the term ``nasal demons'' today?
From: klute@tommy.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Rainer Klute)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Using Imake WITHOUT the mit Source Tree
Date: 10 Sep 92 03:05:30 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: CS Department, Dortmund University, Germany

Date: 9 Sep 92 07:18:11 GMT
Message-Id: <18k8fjINNpq9@fbi-news.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp,comp.windows.x

In article <3617@eastman.UUCP>, gerwitz@Kodak.com (Paul Gerwitz) writes:
|> I would like to take the typical program from comp.sources.X and other
|> sources and be able to EASILY compile it in an HP-UX machine at 8.0 or 8.07
|> without having the X11 source tree installed.  I understand that some of
|> the code may require includes and libraries from R5 (HP-UX is R4 right
|> now), and I am willing to work around that problem if need be.  But it sure
|> would be nice if some imakefiles, templates etc could be configured to use
|> the HP supplied software so that all I have to do is 'mkmf' and 'make' a
|> program and voila, it's ready to go.

You don't need the X source tree in order to use Imake. When you install
the X Window System with "make install", the Imake binaries and
configuration files get installed, too. Look into /usr/bin/X11 resp. into
the location where the X11 binaries are installed at your site! You should
find imake, xmkmf, makedepend, and mkdirhier there. Imake's configuration
files go into /usr/lib/X11/config. All you need to do in order to compile a
program coming with a (proper) Imakefile is "xmkmf -a" and "make". (The -a
option of xmkmf automatically invokes the steps "make Makefiles" (generate
Makefiles in subdirectories), "make includes" (generate header files that
are not already there), and "make depend" (insert make dependencies into
the Makefile).)

If you are in the sad situation of having an X11 installation without a
proper Imake, and you don't want or can't compile X11R5 yourself just to
get Imake, you should consider to get the file
/pub/X11/misc/imake/imake-pure.tar.Z (115 KBytes only) from
ftp.germany.eu.net. As the name indicates, this file comprises Imake and
nothing else. I ripped it out of the X11R5 source tree and tweaked the
configuration files a little bit, so that Imake can be compiled and
installed on its own.

-- 
  Dipl.-Inform. Rainer Klute      klute@irb.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
  Univ. Dortmund, IRB
  Postfach 500500         |)|/    Tel.: +49 231 755-4663
D-W4600 Dortmund 50       |\|\    Fax : +49 231 755-2386
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Attention Earthlings -- Cross-Vendor X11 Server Mess!
Date: 8 Sep 92 01:04:36 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: The World

Date: 7 Sep 92 23:28:35 GMT
Message-Id: <BZS.92Sep7182835@ussr.std.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.apps


I think a lot of your comments amount to ``I don't need this to be
right, so what's the BFD?'' Well, you have to put yourself into a
position where an application does need this right, read on.

From: mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
>The keyboard doesn't generate both a and A.  It generates events for
>the shift key and events for the A key.  It is the client's job,
>typically via XLookupString, to convert A-key-with-shift-down into an
>"A" character and A-key-with-shift-up into an "a" character.  If it
>wants to convert them to characters at all, that is; not all
>applications do.

From xev tracing (RS6000):

KeyRelease event, serial 15, synthetic NO, window 0x1000001,
    root 0x8006b, subw 0x0, time 2939252975, (7,71), root:(18,105),
    state 0x0, keycode 39 (keysym 0x61, a), same_screen YES,
    XLookupString gives 1 characters:  "a"


KeyPress event, serial 15, synthetic NO, window 0x1000001,
    root 0x8006b, subw 0x0, time 2939255405, (7,71), root:(18,105),
    state 0x1, keycode 39 (keysym 0x41, A), same_screen YES,
    XLookupString gives 1 characters:  "A"

[I realize this varies from server to server, that's another
indication of the nature of the problem.]

Notice that although LookupString() returns "a" and "A" respectively,
as you predicted, and the shift key is noted (state 0x0 vs 0x1) it
still thought that the KeySym needed to be changed for each event for
the same keycode (0x61 vs 0x41.)

I think you might be missing the subtlety of the botch, you need to
turn the problem around. It's not "do I get a reasonable response when
I push this key", it's "can I anticipate what I will get when keys are
pressed".

The latter is a problem for a different kind of application than the
former solves. The former mostly works, the latter is mostly a mess,
fuzzy and indeterminate.

If you're still having trouble with the distinction, imagine that what
your application is trying to do is set the XLookupString() for all
the possible keysyms (e.g. change the type-in font.) If you tried this
(particularly across a few servers) you'd find that it's a mess unless
you applied heuristics of various types.


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
From: sands@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Greg Sands)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Can anyone tell me about Xprinter?
Date: 15 Sep 92 10:31:57 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: University of Auckland

Date: 15 Sep 92 04:44:14 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep15.044414.15083@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.apps

Some time ago, I saw a posting regarding a product called Xprinter
which seemed to allow one to write to a postscript printer using
Xlib-type calls.  Can anyone fill me in on the details of this
product, specifically what it can do, and where I can get it from?
Also any user comments would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Greg.
-- 
Greg Sands.                           |  Department of Engineering Science
-----------                           |  University of Auckland           
g.sands@aukuni.ac.nz                  |  New Zealand.
From: mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 12 Sep 92 01:30:14 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines

Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 02:37:49 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep11.023749.14831@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

In article <18k21lINNkj8@early-bird.think.com>, barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes:
> In article <1992Sep8.211314.23372@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse) writes:
>> I am not arguing with their findings.  I am saying merely that it
>> *is* slower _for_me_.  Or are you trying to say that my time-sense
>> is so out of whack that I merely *think* I'm typing 10 to 20 cps?
>> Or perhaps that I merely *think* that I can't make a mouse selection
>> in .05 to .1 second?
> Hold on, folks.  Are you comparing things at the same level?  Sure,
> you can type at 100 wpm =~ 10 cps.  But a command line is typically
> around 10-20 characters, so it takes 1-2 seconds to enter a command.
> In a GUI, a command is often just a click followed by a menu or
> palette seletion, which Apple claims took their subjects 1-2 seconds.

Except that the CLI command can do more.  How many 10-20 keystroke
command lines are there?  (Okay, how many *useful* ones?)  Now, how
many menu selections are available?

What's more, you're the one who's making invalid comparisons.  I, at
least, am not (not necessarily) arguing a comparison between a UNIX (or
VMS, or similar) command-line and menu selections.  I'm arguing a
comparison between menu selections and short bucky-bit command
sequences (clover-key sequences on the Mac, control-key on UNIX, for
example).

> Your comparison might be reasonable if people were entering running
> text using the mouse, but even the most devoted GUI afficionados
> agree that a keyboard is necessary for a word processor.

But the rabid GUI types don't use the keyboard for anything *except*
text in the WP.  I'm talking about (say) selecting "Save" from a menu,
versus (say) typing control-X control-Q.

> 100 wpm is a reasonably proficient typist, but the learning curve
> necessary to be able to select menu item in two seconds may be pretty
> short.

This is an excuse for crippling those of us who *have* learned to type?

					der Mouse

			    mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
From: stripes@pix.com (Josh Osborne)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Xtank 1.3f is released
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:26:52 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Pix Technologies -- The company with no adult supervision

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:49:33 GMT
Message-Id: <BuKJMM.Lus@pix.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.xtank.programmer,rec.games.xtank.play,comp.unix.bsd,comp.windows.x

In article <BuJxGr.GvK@pix.com> lidl@pix.com (Kurt J. Lidl) writes:
[...]
>New features:
It's not like Kurt to forget things, but he did.

  * Force Specials, you can now force all tanks in a game to have, or
  not to have any specials you want.

  * New game: madman, sort of combat with a disc.  You get points for
  killing only if you have the disc, or kill the tank with the disc.
  Not very fun for two players :-)

  * Something else, that I forget.
-- 
           stripes@pix.com              "Security for Unix is like
      Josh_Osborne@Real_World,The          Multitasking for MS-DOS"
      "The dyslexic porgramer"                  - Kevin Lockwood
We all agree on the necessity of compromise.  We just can't agree on
when it's necessary to compromise.       - Larry Wall
From: haim@cs.technion.ac.il (Haim Roman)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Sun, X11R5 and openwindows
Date: 15 Sep 92 01:24:56 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. Tech., Haifa

Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 12:17:15 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep13.121715.12657@discus.technion.ac.il>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <1992Sep09.211513.19115@watson.ibm.com>, johndew@watson.ibm.com (John Dewysocki) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> We have upgraded to SunOs 4.1.2 and X11R5, my problem is that
|> I can't start up openwindows any more.  When I try to execute
|> openwin it complains in the following way, then dies:
|> 
|> Couldn't get base SunWindow
|> /usr/openwin/bin/xinit:  Connection refused (errno 61): unable to
|> connect to X server
|> 
|> I have all the correct env. variables set up correctly, the right
|> path ahead of /usr/bin/X11, and have been able to run
|> /usr/openwin/bin/xinit by itself (running olwm) w/out a problem.
|> 
|> It seems the problem is with xnews (which complains about the
|> base SunWindow - above).  Unfortunately, I do not have any
|> X11/NeWS literature to refer to.  Can anyone give me any
|> pointers?  Is this a X11R5/NeWS problem?
|> Thanks,
|> 
|> --
|> 
|>      ~    John    ~
|> |///////////\\\\\\\\\\\|

Egads, you too!?  I've noticed the same problem, but, because of the
particular circumstances, I assumed that we really munged some system
files.  Please post any answers you get to news.

Thank you.
-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Haim (Howard) Roman	| 					      |
| Systems Staff 	| E-MAIL: haim@cs.technion.ac.il	      |
| Computer Science Dept	| PHONE:  04-294350	(from  inside Israel) |
| Technion		|         +972-4-294350 (from outside Israel) |
| Haifa, Israel		|					      |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: bulb%banruc60.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Test,ignore please.
Date: 6 Sep 92 15:29:21 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Message-Id: <UeeUO3ODUMRZMWBEU2@freya>
Date: Sun,  6 Sep 1992 14:24:19 +0100 (BST)

dd
From: mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: setsid on 4.3+BSD
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:38:51 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines

Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 01:13:23 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep11.011323.11170@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.unix.programmer

In article <9209081954.AA08481@mtesol>, sinan@Mtesol.boeing.COM (Sinan Karasu) writes:

> I have xview running on a concurrent machine.  However when a term
> window is created (with devGuide) a call to setsid is generated.
> Concurrent RTU does not have a setsid function ( that I could find
> anyway.  This is all in "universe ucb").

> Q: Is this a 4.3 or a BSD function ? (W. Richard Stevens says it is
>    SVR4 and Posix but is vague about it's origins.)

I think WRS is right.  It is not present in our (pre-Tahoe) 4.3.  It is
part of the POSIX session junk.

> Q: does anybody have the source code for setsid ?
> Q: is it available at ftp.uu.net:/systems/unix/bsd-sources/lib

Maybe.  BSD may have gone far enough towards POSIX compatability to
provide it.  In BSD terms, it is something like using TIOCNOTTY on a
file descriptor to /dev/tty and calling setpgrp(0,getpid()), but is
more complicated because POSIX gratuitously (and unnecesarily)
introduced a new concept, that of a session, that BSD doesn't have.

For porting to BSD, though, you can probably get away with something
like this:

#include <sys/file.h>
#include <sys/ioctl.h>

setsid()
{
 int i;

 i = open("/dev/tty",O_RDWR,0);
 if (i >= 0)
  { ioctl(i,TIOCNOTTY,0);
    close(i);
  }
 setpgrp(0,getpid());
}

This really has little or nothing to do with X; it's a UNIX-derivative
incompatibility issue.  As such, I'm crossposting to, and pointing
followups to, comp.unix.programmer.

					der Mouse

			    mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
From: payam@langmuir.Berkeley.EDU (Payam Mirrashidi)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Compiling PEX(X11R5) under sun4_sunos4.1.1 cc
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:56:41 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Plasma Theory And Simulation Group

Date: 4 Sep 1992 02:36:18 GMT
Message-Id: <186i32INNsn7@agate.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

I recently compiled X11R5 on my SparcStation 1+ using the standard cc compiler.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like PEX got fully compiled.  I know in the
text that comes with the installation they mention problems with compiling PEX
under some compilers. I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions to rectify
this situation.

BTW, the errors I get are:
	ranlib: warning: libdidipex.a(pexDump.o): no symbol table
	ranlib: warning: libdidipex.a(pexError.o): no symbol table


-- 
Payam Mirrashidi                  payam@langmuir.Berkeley.EDU

"We look to Los Angeles for the language we use; London is dead..." - Morrissey
From: ebubra@ebu.ericsson.se (Bertil Askelid)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: gcc-2.1 & X11r5p17 success, BUT xdm ???
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:27:25 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Ericsson Business Communications, Anaheim, California

Date: 14 Sep 92 05:51:52 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep14.055152.3460@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

Hello!

   I am trying to compile X11r5 patchlevel 17 on a Sparc IPX running
   SunOs 4.1.1 using gcc-2.1. I have managed to compile everything
   sucessfully following the good advice from fellow netters as
   summarized below. The only failure I have is when linking xdm:
   
      gcc -fpcc-struct-return -o xdm -O2   auth.o daemon.o server.o dpylist.o dm.o error.o file.o  greet.o netaddr.o reset.o resource.o protodpy.o policy.o  session.o socket.o streams.o util.o verify.o xdmcp.o  Login.o mitauth.o  genauth.o access.o choose.o xdmauth.o rpcauth.o -L../.././lib/Xaw -lXaw -L../.././lib/Xmu -lXmu -L../.././lib/Xt -lXt -L../.././extensions/lib -lXext -L../.././lib/X -lX11 ../.././lib/Xau/libXau.a ../.././lib/Xdmcp/libXdmcp.a -lrpcsvc -L/usr/local/X11r5/lib    
      ld: Undefined symbol 
         __C0095A2A 
      collect: /usr/bin/ld returned 2 exit status
      *** Error code 1

   Is there anyone out there who has come across this and has figured
   out a solution? Please, email the answers to me and I will summarize
   the result! This group is overloaded as it is!

   I have followed all (?) the advice I have come across on
   this newsgroup on the subject since May-92:
   
      I have applied the patches in gcc-2.1/README.X11.
      
      As adviced by dmose@bright.uoregon.edu (Dan Mosedale) I have had
      some Sun patches applied:
      
         ld.jumbo.100170-06
         libc.100266-06
         ld.so.100257-03

      and also set the following flag in my /mit/config/site.def file:
      
         #define SunPost411FCSLd    YES
         
      I followed the advice by jb@falstaffMAE.CWRU.Edu (Jim Berilla) and
      added "-lXt" as follows in /mit/config/sunLib.tmpl on line 51:
      
         XMULIB = _Use(-lXmu,-L$(XMUSRC) -lXmu -L$(TOOLKITSRC) -L$(EXTENSIONSRC)/lib -L$(XLIBSRC) -lXt)

      and also edited /mit/config/sun.cf to correct a mistake in
      gcc-2.1/README.X11:
      
         #if defined(HasGcc2) 
         #undef OptimizedCDebugFlags /* <------ this line was forgotten */
         #define OptimizedCDebugFlags -O2
         #else
-- 
			Bertil Askelid
			ebubra@ebu.ericsson.se
From: adam@microware.com (Adam Goldberg)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Free software and the future of support for Diamond products
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:43:22 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Microware Systems Corp., Des Moines, Iowa

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:58:59 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep14.125859.997@microware.com>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.sysv386,comp.windows.x,comp.os.linux,comp.unix.bsd,comp.os.mach,comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware

harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>terry@cs.weber.edu (A Wizard of Earth C) writes:

>>	If they aren't willing to open the box to check for documentation,
>>what makes you think they're going to take an opened box back when the
>>board isn't documented or is defective?

>Yeah, but what video card company (or SCSI card company, or sound card
>company, or ...) packages technical docs with their product?  None
>that I've seen...

Adaptec, actually.  A 1740 I recently bought (the EISA version of the 
1540) CAME WITH the technical manual.  I was slightly suprised, I figured
I would have to acquire the manual separately (but Adaptec will be happy
to send you a techincal manual--free, plus it's downloadable).  Ooops,
I guess this is off the subject, but what the hell.  :)'s to Adaptec.

-- 
Adam G.
adamg@microware.com, or ...!uunet!mcrware!adamg
The above is not to be construed in any way as the official or unofficial
statements of Microware, or any Microware employees.