From: rpetsche@mrg.tmc.edu (Rolfe G. Petschek)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Reply-To: rpetsche@mrg.CWRU.EDU (Rolfe G. Petschek)
Organization: CWRU Physics Department
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:27:13 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.045208.219642@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
>
>
>I'd like to thank Rolfe for posting those comments.  
>
>I'm not particularly happy with my feelings on this issue,
>though.  I can understand why someone might fantasize being
>raped (especially after the detailed description of his
>ex-lover's experiences), but I am still at a loss as to
>the reasons for fantasizing that one is raping another
>person.  When people say they fantasize about raping someone,
>are they referring to a nonviolent scene such as Rolfe
>described earlier, or something very different?

Well this is, I think harder to explain to the typical woman.  *Some*
rape fantasies are as mild as the one I posted (it was rather
deliberately mild) although I do remark that it was also rather
deliberately written to establish the elements of rape (except that she
had consented) and I would not characterize it as non-violent.  "Force"
(I am/was *much* stronger than her) appears often e.g. in the context
"I rip off her ancient panties and force her legs apart".  In the context
of non-consent that is really, really bad, quite violent and very
noxious.  Delete the adjective "ancient" included to foreshadow the prior
consent and the other deliberate elements of fantasy and you have a quite
horrid situation.

Why do I think I have rape fantasies as the rapist?

Because getting consent is or can be a difficulty and, in a fantasy it can be
a difficulty (like the fleas in the middle ages) which it is nice to
ignore.  Now this is possibly less easy to explain to a woman because in
our society males are the more obvious sexual agressors and therefor the
ones who worry most about (and have the  most experience in obtaining)
consent.  Trust me, it can be painful.  Not only don't you get good
instructions "how to make her come across" in general but "making her
come across" can be a long, slow, painful and commonly unsuccessful
project.  I know that women in some situations have mirror problems
and/or the same problems in sexual contexts but most surely have similar
problems in non-sexual contexts e.g. if I ask this person to do X with
me will (s)he.  Place such possible frustration in the (highly
emotional) sexual context.  Remember that particularly in such contexts
people are not always honest, saying no meaning slow down or yes or not
yet and saying yes meaning no (I would *like* to go out with you but,
well, I have to X, Oh, sorry I know I was busy last Saturday too, but
this Saturday I have to Y, really I would like to go out with you but
....)

So in the context of a fantasy it is commonly simple to short-cut this
process simply by ignoring it.  Well I suppose it could be ignored simply
by assuming consent (and note that most male rape fantasies (most of
mine certainly)) seem to involve consent *in*the*end* but somehow even
in a fantasy this can be unduly unbelieveable at the beginning.  Hence
the possibly insincerely or possibly sincere "no" at the beginning is
ignored and sex proceeds nevertheless (rape) but we both have fun in the
end (my sexual technique overwhelms her/his first hestiation).

THIS DOES NOT WORK IN REAL LIFE AND I DON'T EXPECT IT TO.

Makes a nice fantasy, though.

I remark that this explanation is imperfect/incomplete because certainly
there are rape fantasies which are more violent and are even less
plausible to result in eventual consent.  I understand these less well
but remark that there are connections between strong emotions such as
sex and fear and that fear can be inticing too - hence murder mysteries
and horror stories and, I suppose consensual sadomasochism.  I don't
like this as a explanation but it is the best I can manage.

I remark in this regard that I played "lion" with some 4 year-olds
yesterday.  I would growl, they ran away.  They would come close again,
I would growl and pretend to bite off their noses and they would run
away again.  No noses were ever bitten off eventually they became lions
too (growling and pawing at me)
and had to be swung around in the air.  They knew that I would stop
when required and I did when e.g. I jumped into the air when holding one
and was told "that's *too* scary".

>I get
>the impression from the "It's perfectly normal!" crowd that
>they are not at all alarmed by their fantasies.

Well remember I have had rape fantasies (both ways) all my adult life.
I have never (even come close to) rape.  Remember also that it was clear
to me at one point in my life that I could have acted out a rape
fantasy consensually (and this would probably even have been a good
thing for me to have done and would have been welcomed, possibly greatly 
enjoyed, by my partner - but well I can not be sure of that).  My
response - controled revulsion.  I wanted nothing to do with that.

Why should I be alarmed by a fantasy which I could not even imagine actually
acting out?

I remark that it is also possible to have rape fantasies e.g. because
you are upset with someone and wish to do them harm, just as Susan had
torture fantasies with a particular person because she was 'upset' with
him and wished to do him harm.  I agree that such fantasies are less
healthy/normal and a matter for concern.  (Yes, I had such during a very
stressful period of my life now thankfully past).  If a person has them
persistantly - or even if they persistantly have rape fantasies with the
notion of acting on them somehow realistic - why, help is a good idea.
--
Rolfe G. Petschek			Petschek@cwru.bitnet
Associate Professor of Physics		rgp@po.cwru.edu
Case Western Reserve University		(216)368-4035 
Cleveland Oh 44106-7079