From: dswt@bnr.co.uk (Stewart Tansley)
Newsgroups: alt.romance
Subject: Re: LJBF
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:13:39 GMT
Reply-To: dswt@bnr.co.uk (Stewart Tansley)
Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB


I've enjoyed the recent thread bringing a more fresher approach to the ol'
favourite of LJBF (especially of mine & the women I've known! ;-)). Nearly all 
has been good stuff; some I've agreed with, some not. I'd love to reply to lots
more, but apart from the boredom this would cause (even more than normal, eh? 
;-)), here are some of my thoughts WRT a followup to just one of the 
exchanges...

[NB. I may have got my Jonathans & Jeffs mixed up below -- sorry, if so.]


In the referenced article jcr@mbunix.mitre.org (Rogers) writes:
>Jonathan Partee (partee@iastate.edu) writes:
>
>> I have strong friendships with these women that continue to this day.
>> It's not about being "above all that".  It's about not being afraid
>> of being hurt.
>>
>> It really irks me to see the attitude of some guys who feel that there
>> is no use being friends with a woman if no romance is involved.

What reall irks me is that many men and women think that if you react
badly to an LJBF, you are a Bad Person because you actually dared to hope
for more from someone you were stupid enough to fall in love with. :-(

Sheesh! What I want is a little more respect for the poor LJBFee who
generally needs time to get over the disappointment at the very least.
The LJBFee is actually a Good Person, because they felt *more* for the
LJBFer than the LJBFer felt for them, and love is a Good Thing.

I *do* believe the LJBFee shouldn't just reject the LJBFer out of spite,
but I think there are at least 3 issues which seem to be being forgotten
by some people out there:

1. Getting LJBF'ed is a bummer; it hurts; it needs time to get over before
   rational decisions can be made.

2. If the LJBFee is in love with the LJBFer, you can't just turn those
   feelings off. Sometimes a 'mature' attitude helps, but *not* always.
   Thus, if you're still in love with the LJBFer, 'just friends' is a 
   real let-down, which may be too hard to cope with -- you may need to
   just break things off totally to survive. 

3. Some people do *not* want or need oodles of "friends". This is a legitimate 
   way to be. It is not a hermit mentality, or idealistic nonsense, and doesn't
   make you a Bad Person. I just want a few good friends and an SO, that's all.
   (Too much to ask? ;-)) 

Jonathan's strength against being hurt will help with the first 2 of these, but 
many of us are not as lucky to be blessed with that strength (despite practice 
and age!).


[Jeff replies to Jonathan quoted above:]

>I really have to agree STRONGLY with Jonathan... *BUT* (there's always
>one of those) there ARE some situations where one person SAYS "LJBF" but
>is simultaneously rather callous while breaking things off (and afterward),
>and generally proves not to be a very good friend...

[Much sense deleted]

Jeff is right to respond to Jonathan with his counterexample, but I think
there are many other possible counterexamples which contradict Jonathans
(and others -- not just picking on him) rather idealistic views/experiences.

Someone earlier tried to come up with a taxonomy of LJBF scenarios. It had
3 types, but I think there are many more and other common ones were missed
out. If I get around to it, I'll try to write up some.

FYI, I just cannot (to date) handle the acceptance of an LJBF with someone I'm
in love with. Maybe this is all to do with my objection to falling in love with 
friends being a generally Bad Idea... (see previous, long-deleted posts :-))
Thus, I'm never rejecting LJBFs from people who are Friends. (Maybe we
need a good definition of 'friends' here -- I think my view of 'friends' may
be equivalent to others' Good/Close Friends, and others' 'friends' are
just equivalent to 'acquaintances' for me -- LJBA anyone? ;-))


>Then there are the cases where the LJBFee still cares about the LJBFer,
>but it's too painful for the former to be around the latter, so he/she
>wants to break off the friendship. I say this is the wrong attitude.
					              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^		
>So you can't be around them 'cause it hurts too much! Fine! Don't be.
>But that doesn't mean you can't be friends. Friendship is way more than
>just spending time in each others' presence. Just lay it out: "Yes, I'd
>like to be friends too, but I probably won't be able to be around you
>much for a while, you know? But maybe later... I mean, I've got to get
>over you." And maybe later, you will feel differently. You might be
>surprised -- some great male-female friendships get started this way.

I *think* I agree with what Jeff is saying here -- apart from the 'wrong
attitude' bit. It is idealistic to expect people to not break off totally
because of the pain. Also, not breaking off the friendship is generally the 
ideal way to go, but as has already been pointed out, there are LJBFers who 
have just been 'leading-on' (a UK-local expression?) LJBFees and deserve to be
dumped summarily. I also think that LJBFers need to be a whole lot more
open-minded about how their LJBF is going to be received -- they cannot
expect positive reponses all the time; a negative response is probably not
because the LJBFee is a Bad Person. The LJBFer should at least be flattered by 
the LJBFees provocation of the LJBF situation! 

Look, if all we are saying here is just "don't (ever) *totally* reject an 
LJBFer" then I'm happy to agree. But, if people are saying "you are a Bad 
Person for (ever) not being friends with your LJBFer", this is a bad 
generalisation.

Also, if what the LJBFee really meant by precipitating the LJBF was "I
really want to get into a physical relationship with you", and rejects the
LJBFer because and only because this is not attained, then the LJBFee *is*
a Bad Person. Of course.

Final closing thought:

One of the worst lines someone can give you after they've just dumped you
is "but we can still be friends, if you like". Women seem to be especially
badly informed in this respect -- if they dump a man with a line like
this, the man often feels even worse than they already do! (I think they
get brought up to believe it is a caring thing to say -- it is not! To
me, it is a gross insult!) Please stop it girls ;-) Maybe this has some 
echoes with the LJBF situation...


>Don't be paranoid -- some LJBFs are genuine.

If I knew what this meant, I'd possibly agree with it; then, maybe not! ;-)

===========================================================================
Stewart Tansley     | BNR Europe Limited              |  'Be cool, or be
                    | London Rd, Harlow, CM17 9NA, UK |    cast out...'
dswt@bnr.co.uk      | +44 279 429531 x2763 (ESN 742)  | Subdivisions, Rush
===========================================================================
  'You know how that rabbit feels -- going under your speeding wheels...'
===========================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.romance