HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Blue Jays-Gillick
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:00:13 GMT

In <1992Dec16.155127.10035@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:

>In article <1992Dec16.032238.9715@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:

>>>I'll take Cito, thank you very much.
>>
>>So should every team in baseball.  At least in '92.  Because the team he
>>managed won it all and that's all there is to win...

>That is the most ridiculous statement I've seen in ages.  And I'm not
>even taking it out of context!

>I'll take Alfredo Griffin, thank you very much.  "So should every team
>in baseball.  At least in '92.  Because the team he played for won it
>all, and that's all there is to win...".

Can you prove to me that in '92 the Jays would have won without Griffin?
(or Gaston or any other member of the team).  No you can't and until you can
prove it you cannot tell me that any member of the team was more important
than any other if importance is defined as being necessary to winning the WS. 

>It is a stupid statement because it says nothing of interest.  Was

What says "nothing of interest" is comparing one player in a hypothetical
situation to another.  Much was said this fall about how Abbott would have
done in Jack Morris' shoes.  This is absurd.  It is impossible and 
therefore has no relevance to baseball in the real world.  You cannot
isolate the contribution of any one player to the team effort because you
don't know the complete extent of that players contribution.  What is really
silly is when you attempt to sum the isolated contributions to get the 
total measure of a team's quality.  You have just compounded your original
error by 25 (the number of players).

What is really stupid and of little interest is to claim that any manager
was "better" than Gaston in '92.  We know that the team that employed Gaston
won.  We will never know whether or not that team would have won with any
other manager and any speculation on this issue is purely idle.

>Cito the most successful manager in 1992?  Of course.  Was he the
>best?  Not by any normal definition of "best".  (I know.  You prefer
>your own dictionary, in which "best" and "most successful" are
>synonyms.  Why don't you just accept that the rest of the world
>defines the terms differently?)

What you consider the "best" is meaningless.  The fact that so many argue 
about just what the "best" is should be your first clue.  The fact that
nobody argues about who the "most successful" is should be your second.

a pleasure, as always,

rm

-- 
roger maynard
maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
From: bjk2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (BRIAN JOHN KOPEC)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: PIRATES ALL TIME TEAM
Date: 13 Dec 92 05:57:31 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

I'm surprised nobody has compiled the all time team of the greatest offensive
franchise in baseball (other than Yank's).

1b) Willie Stargell - best years as a Of
2b) Bill Mazeroski - best defensively of all time (HM-J.Ray,weak spot)
3b) Pie Traynor - overrated, but clearly best on Bucs(HM-Bill Madlock underated
SS) Honus Wagner - best ever (HM-Arky Vaughan,see 1935)
C) Manny Sanguillen - a good bat at least (HM-Tony Pena? ouch!)
Rf) Roberto Clemente - best defensively of all time
Cf) Paul Waner - not a cf, but has to play
Lf) Ralph Kiner - brilliant but brief career with dog teams
Other Honorable Mentions:
        Lloyd Waner, Max Carey, Dave Parker (better than) Barry Bonds.

SP) Sam Leever (193-101),Babe Adams (194-140),John Candelaria,Doug Drabek(both
    on the basis of one great year)-- poor group at best
RP) Kent Tekulve, Elroy Face, Dave Giusti (strong trio of closers)

Manager Jim Leyland


*****************************************************
*   Brian Kopec  --  Lehigh University              *
*****************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: fair is fair: i believe cone
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:31:05 GMT

In <1992Dec13.230944.28514@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:

>the only reasonable answer is that gillick chose not to spend the money
>for some reason only he knows, or more likely, cone wanted to go to KC.

actually, to be fair to Pat Gillick, it is Paul Beeston who makes the big
money decisions.  Beeston is President of the Jays and is an accountant 
by profession.

rm

-- 
roger maynard
maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: swwiist@unix.amherst.edu (STEPHEN WILLIAM WIIST)
Subject: Re: More on Bond's Antics.
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 19:12:53 GMT

Jim Mann (jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com) wrote:
:> In article <BzH4MC.5LL@ns1.nodak.edu> sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (The  
:> Purple Bleeder ) writes:
:>> 
:>> One of the MLB official who travelled to Loisville for the
:>> winter meetings, was on the same flight as his Royal
:>> Highness, Mr Barry-Greedy-Bonds.
:>> 
:>> According to the official, Bonds was loud and rude on the
:>> plane and constantly complaining loud as to how the
:>> Yankees *insulted* him with their 5 yr $36 Million offer he
:>> had turned down a few days earlier (source S-I).
:>> 
:>> Talk of insults...what about people struggling on the streets
:>> in this country for getting a decent meal.. Mr Bonds should
:>> be knowing that.
:>>
:>In one sense I agree with you.  But let's change the scenario 
:>a bit.  Let's say you are a computer programmer working for
:>company X.  The average computer programmers of your caliber 
:>usually makes, say, $65,000 per year.  Some programmers who are less 
:>productive than you are now making $55,000 a year.  You have been 
:>told by your peers you are one of the best. All objective analysis 
:>shows you are far better than average.  Now, your company 
:>comes along and says: as a salary this year, we'd like to give
:>you $50,000. 
:> 
:
   In this situation you should be insulted for getting $50,000 dollars
since that is about 75% of what other programers of your quality are 
getting.  Bonds, however, was offered what would have been one of the
highest salaries in baseball.  In fact his salary would have been about
6 times higher than the average player's.  
    I don't think, in my opinion, that the Yankees insulted Bonds.  I don't
see how offering someone over 7 million a year to play baseball for you
can be taken as a insult.  In my opinion, Bonds is the one being insulting 
by the way his acted after being offered a salary too generous for any
baseball player.

>What's your reaction.  Remember, there are people living on 
:>the street to whom $50,000 would be a small fortune.  But
:>wouldn't you still feel insulted. It's not just the 
:>gross amount of money (and some of these players do make
:>a gross amount).  It's how much someone values you. If they
:>say you're great, but want to pay you below average for
:>what you can do, you'll feel insulted, no matter what the
:>absolute amount.
:> 
:> 
:> --
:>Jim Mann            
:>Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
:> 

 Stephen

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca (The Econoclast)
Subject: Who here is Baysian?
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:29:15 GMT

Does anyone reading this newsgroup, including Roger Maynard, really
have flat priors about the outcome of the 1993 season?

-- 
  Regards,

  John Palmer    London, Ontario       Voice: (519) 661-3533     FAX: 661-3666
  reply to jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca       The Economics Institute for Journalists
  ============================================================================
  The New Economics: Overlapping Generalizations & Rationalized Expectorations
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: who stole the kishka?
Organization: American Software Development Corp., West Babylon, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:28:28 GMT

In article <92347.154445RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>what is in it for the twenty-six owners to expand, and let two more
>owners in the game? there's no profit sharing, so i don't think they're
>going to gain financially from the two new teams, and it decreases
>their chances of making the playoffs (thus decreasing profits).
>
>so what's the scoop?

Each team gets a piece of that "entry fee" each expansion team has to
pay.  Also, as I posted here about two months ago, the owners are
studying a plan to expand the playoff system by creating FOUR divisions
per league.  I have it on good authority this was presented to the owners
and is in study for implementation by the end of the decade (initial
target was name 1996, but the do not feel that is realistic).
-- 
scott barman			| <This space intentionally left blank>
scott@asd.com			|
 (I can barely speak for myself, you expect me to speak for my employer??)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: lws@eembox.ncku.edu.tw (WenHsiang Lin)
Subject: Re: My picks, AL/NL East
Organization: National Cheng Kung University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:16:50 GMT
X-Posted-From: sun3.ee.ncku.edu.tw
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

> Orestes Destrade will pop 270 with 20 homers.   

    Is it very difficult to hit home run in Marlins' home ground?
Orestes Destrade consistantly hits around 40 homers for every 130-game
season in Japan. I expect him to have more than 20 homers for Marlins
in next season.

WenHsiang Lin
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Women Sports Reporters
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:51:09 GMT
Followup-To: rec.sport.baseball.soc.men

In article <1651@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu> libwca@emory.edu (Bill Anderson) writes:
)bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:

): I am a little skeptical of someone telling me there is no resentment given
): the circumstances, it does seem mildly disingenuous.       
)
)
)Nevertheless, is does seem to be true, for the most part.  Some 
)athletes are uncomfortable with it, of course, and some are 
)crazy enough to express that discomfort rodentially, so to 
)speak; but from interviews I've read, most could care less.
)
)Bill  

I'm still skeptical.  For starters, atheletes who give out interviews are
probably not a truly random selection of atheletes, and furthermore they
may well be under pressure to say the 'politic' thing rather than what they
actually believe.

I really do smell a 'rat' when I hear people talk about how 'they really
don't mind at all'.
Date: Monday, 14 Dec 1992 10:59:39 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: A new slant on Barry Bonds' uniform number

the yankees have a number which is retired for two different people.
i forget who the people are, and what the number is, though.

bob vesterman.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Mattingly discussion, take 2.
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 07:13:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.212715.18477@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> akamholz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Andrew E Kamholz) writes:

>>Mattingly still LOOKS good on defense (and really he's not bad).
>>But he only gets to an average number of balls hit toward him.
>>If he's the best in the league, why doesn't he get to more?

>Ok- the fact that I have seen him was not meant to be the all-deciding factor.
>I have seen (via games and TV) all first baseman play. Perhaps some of his
>stats are average, but on the whole he is at least as good as any other first 
>baseman and better than most. 

What about the stats that are *worse* than average?  As a hitter, 
Cecil Fielder,  Mark McGwire,  John Olerud, and Frank Thomas were FAR
better than Mattingly this year.  In fact, McGwire and Thomas were 
so much better with the bat that no difference in fielding could
possibly have made Mattingly as good as they.  Palmeiro and Sorrento
were also better with the bat.

>In fact, as suggested to me by Valentine, the 
>only guy I put in his class is McGwire.

C'mon -- if you were offered a trade for Frank Thomas, staight up,
how long would you have to think about it?


Roger
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dudgeon@hardy.u.washington.edu (Doug Dudgeon)
Subject: Re: What's with McGwire ?
Reply-To:  dudgeon@opus.cheme.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:44:11 GMT

chee1l5@Jane.UH.EDU writes:


>Just wondering what's going on with Mark McGwire. Has he been made any
>offers? 

I read a few weeks ago that both McGwire and Steinbach were waiting to see
what the A's were going to do with their long list of free agents and that
neither had any interest in sticking around if the franchise was going into
a rebuilding phase.  Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the
A's are indeed entering a rebuilding phase.  Sounds like the politics of
contract negotiations.  The A's have been good to these players and I don't
recall ever hearing anything resembling a complaint out of either of them.
Now I read in this morning's paper that Steinbach has signed a 4-year,
$14-million contract to stay with Oakland.  According to Steinbach, the Yankees
were offering $3 million more but he chose to stay with the A's out of loyalty.
I expect (hope) that McGwire will similarly be re-signed by Oakland in the near
future.

-- 
Doug Dudgeon                             Dept. of Chemical Engineering, BF-10
dudgeon@opus.cheme.washington.edu        University of Washington, Seattle

111 days left until Opening Day 1993!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: Re: All-Henderson Team
Organization: The Little Squids of Minneapolis
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:40:18 GMT

In article <15DEC199212574240@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller) writes:
>	So, assuming I can scrape up the rest of the insignificant Millers
>in major league baseball, we'd have to be called "The Mighty Millers",
>or the "Fighting Millers" or the "Flying Millers" or something ... I'll
>get back to you once our pitchers and catchers report for spring training...

Might I suggest the Minneapolis Millers? 

(If we stretch the rules a bit you can put together a mighty good team
 of Millers from those who spent some of their minor league time in 
 Minneapolis. I believe there's even a book on the subject...)

---------------------------
 Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith | "Good news, mate! You're in the band! Nigel and
   (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)    |  David really liked your drum solo. We go into
     Based on an idea     |  the studio on Monday. Now, have you heard about 
 suggested by Paul Bolin. |  The Curse?"          _Mr Peanut joins Spinal Tap_
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: aboufadel@scsuc.ctstateu.edu (ABOUFADEL,E)
Subject: Mason/Maddux trade
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords:  Mets, Padres
Organization: Southern Connecticut State University - Computer Center
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:24:00 GMT

I read in the papers today that the Mets trades pitchers Roger Mason and Mike 
Freitas to San Diego for pitcher Mike Maddux.

How did the Mets acquire Mason?  Didn't they sign him as a free agent a few 
weeks ago?  If that is the case, isn't it downright weird that they would or 
even could trade him away like that?

Ed Aboufadel


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: lws@eembox.ncku.edu.tw (WenHsiang Lin)
Subject: Re: Giants OF 2/3 set...
Organization: National Cheng Kung University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:30:25 GMT
X-Posted-From: sun3.ee.ncku.edu.tw
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1gh7g1INN3gg@menudo.uh.edu> st1ge@Jane.UH.EDU (Edward Hui) writes:

>In article <42514@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>>
>>
>>OK, so Bonds is in LF, Dave Martinez in CF.  Will Lewis go away?
>>Who will play right; Hosey?  Mark Leonard? Wood?
>>
>>Any clues?
>         I always like Mark Leonard.  I hope the new manager will
>give him a chance to play everyday.  However, if Wood or Leonard
>get the job, the whole Giants outfield will be all left-handed
>hitters, so Hosey may have the inside track....

    Where is Willie McGee? Will he be traded to other team? Just Wondering..

WenHsiang Lin
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: O1DOUG@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Doug Miller)
Subject: Re: NUMBER 24
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 06:35:38 GMT

  Well I am glad that all of San Fran feels the way I do. I think that
Bobby Bonds feels pretty honored right now that his son took his number,
he was also a very good ball player. I think Barry also realizes that it
could have been an extreme act of selfishness and that Willie as a
godfather was just trying to do his best as a godfather.
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tracyj@hall103.its.rpi.edu (Jeffrey Allan Tracy)
Subject: Phil Plantier traded, Boggs out the door?
Summary: Why in the **** did the Red Sox trade Phil Plantier?
Keywords: Why, why, why, why?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:15:23 GMT

As a loyal fan of the Red Sox, I have put up with everything from losing the
World Series in '86, which, by the way, was the fault of one Bob Stanley, not
Bill Buckner as most of you in the baseball world like to think, to finishing
in dead last place this year.  But this has to be the dumbest thing that Lou
Gorman has ever conjured up in his life.  Jose Melendez?  He is an old nobody.
Phil Plantier was the darling of the Red Sox, their ray of hope for the future,
and now he is gone.  Last year he had a poor season because of an ailing elbow,
but that is taken care of now.  This has to be as bright as the way that the 
Red Sox are treating Wade Boggs.  One bad year, and the Red Sox completly give
up on their players.  Wade and Roger are the Red Sox, and I hope that the Red
Sox realize this before it is too late, which it may already be.  I wish Phil 
the best of of luck in his new home.  And Wade, he will always be in the 
hearts of all Red Sox fans, whether or not he stays in Boston.  I love the Red 
Sox, but is the 1993 team really going to be the Red Sox?
Keep Wade, if you can treat him right!
Bring back Bruce Hurst!(hint)
Dwight Evans, manager!(hint#2)
Stop the major league greed!
Jeffrey A Tracy                  "Jefe"

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Best playes of All Time
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 03:09:58 GMT

In article <BzKEqI.73u@unix.amherst.edu> ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL) writes:
>So that we all don't get bored waiting for spring training to start, I
>propose starting best of All Time lists to keep some sort of baseball
>discussion going.

>Here's my team:

>C Gaby Harnett

Why?  I can think of seven or eight better catchers -- Campanella,
Cochrane, Berra, Bench, Carter, probably Fisk, Lombardi.

>1B Lou Gehrig
>2B Rogers Hornsby
>SS Honus Wagner
>3B Mike Schmidt
>OF Ty Cobb
>OF Ted Williams
>OF Babe Ruth

>The bench:
>C Bill Dickey

Again, barely in the top ten.  Not even the best catcher on the Yankees.

>1B Hank Greenberg
>1B Jimmie Fox

McCovey?

>2B Jackie Robinson
>2B Rod Carew

Again, why not Eddie Collins or Joe Morgan?  Take a look at Li'l Joe's
best years, 1972-77.  

>3B George Brett
>OF Joe DiMaggio
>OF Mickey Mantle
>OF Willie Mays
>OF Hank Aaron

Also Speaker, Musial, etc.

>The Staff:
>SP Sandy Koufax
>SP Bob Feller
>SP Rube Wadell
>SP Nolan Ryan
>SP Walter Johnson

Grove, Seaver, Marichal, Mathewson, Alexander, Young, etc.  I 
wouldn't put Ryan or Feller anywhere near the top of that list,
and Clemens is getting close to having had a peak like Koufax's.

>RP Dennis Eckersly
>RP Rich Gossage

Gossage over Fingers????

>So what do you all think of this

Some good, some not-so-good.  I'd love to hear the why behind some
of your choices -- seriously!

Roger

PS: especially the catchers... 8-)
Organization: Freshman, IM - Graphic Communications, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 02:51:21 -0500 
From: Josh S Linder <jl6p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Benito Santiago / Marlins lineup.

Nigel Wilson still has a year of minor league ball in him.


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: All-Henderson Team;All-Jewish Team
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:53:00 GMT

In article <BzCCC0.MH6@cs.uiuc.edu>, epstein@cs.uiuc.edu writes...
>In <15DEC199218194894@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> yankees@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Kenneth M Gelfand) writes: 
>>In article <BzB9I9.H7G@cs.uiuc.edu>, epstein@cs.uiuc.edu writes...

>>	I think, I'm not sure about this, that Andy Stankiewicz of the
>>Yankees is Jewish.  I only think this because some moron called WFAN
>>and said that he was a lousy recruit from the synagouge leagues.
> 
>I don't know about Andy Stankiewicz in particular, but the general
>rule I know of regarding names that end in a "<witz>" sound is that if
>it's spelled "...witz" it's Jewish, and if it's spelled "...wicz" it's
>not Jewish (Polish, perhaps?).  Similarly, "<ski>" spelled "...sky" is
>Jewish, and spelled "..ski" is not.  
> 
>Remember, these are *general* rules, so they may fail a good deal of
>the time (I have no idea of the percentages).  But I'm pretty sure
>that Greg Luzinski is not Jewish :-).

	Actually, I was under the impression that the rule went 
"ski" is a Polish last name, "sky" is a Russian last name ... my mother's
father's last name was something like "Stoffelefski" (something from
Poland), and he was Jewish, so I don't think the spelling denotes religion.
	Not sure about "witz" vs. "wicz" though ... it's probably more
a suggestion of coming from either Russia or Poland, though ... I would
think li'l Andy is Polish, but I have no idea whether or not he's Jewish.

>-- 
>Milt Epstein
>Department of Computer Science
>University of Illinois
>epstein@cs.uiuc.edu

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason A. Miller				|		Kill Tanana!
=============================================================================
"doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu"		|		"some doctor guy"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer:  I'm not a shortstop for the Mets, but I play one on TV
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball