HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Affirmative action does not mean quotas
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:23:28 GMT

From article <lba5etINNb4p@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, by aspasia@usability.Eng.Sun.COM (Lisa Louise Davis):
[...]
> 
> 
> My understanding of affirmative action is very slightly different:  If two
> candidates both meet the minimum requirements for the job, then the minority
> candidate should be selected.  (This is the definition presented a few years 
> ago in a sociology seminar.)
> 
> The distinction is subtle, but significant.  In effect, the best candidate
> for the job isn't always selected, but no unqualified candidate is selected.
> 
> Lisa Davis

Yes, I think this is typically how AA is applied, with most of the wrangling
generally over what the minimum requirements should be.

Example.  A certain fire department was having trouble attracting 'enough'
female firefighters.  Solution, make the physical requirement pass/fail.
Before this an applicant would take the physical and the written test and
they would be combined in some way to narrow the field.  Now, all that
is needed is the certain minimum physical standards.  

I just hope whoever is being dragged out of the burning building is not
above whatever weight they decided was minimum.

SEH
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 13:18:45 GMT

In article <12SEP199219100161@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>
>Perhaps we now come to the crux of the discussion.  What 
>exactly do you see as the function of the university professor?

Teacher, researcher, various professional committees at the 
department.

>If the only thing I had to do in my position
>were to supervise research and teach a few classes, then my
>job would be a snap. 

You must be kidding here. Teachers at community colleges teach
almost 100% of their time. Researchers at national laboratories
and various research professors at universities do research close
to 100% of their time and many of them would tell you they wish
the day would be 30 hours so they finish their projects. Why
do you say that the above duties are a snap to do ? 

>But I have a lot of other responsibilities
>with respect to committee duties, student advising, 
>college and university service duties.  

All of the above have nothing to do with social agendas.

>Am I interested in promoting my own political convictions?
>Frankly, no.  

But you do, if you choose applicants on the basis of their genes.

>I have also been involved in hirings where female candidates
>were interviewed and were NOT hired because when all things
>were considered, we found a male would be best for the 
>department.  

See? the genes of the candidate has nothing to do with the
job. Why do you bother telling us the gender of the candidate.
You could equally well tell us the parity of her social security
number.

>Joseph S. Merola
>Department of Chemistry
>Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU) 
>

Dov
From: drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond)
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:37:09 GMT

In article <15SEP199207062283@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu>, merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
> Initially,
> AA was mixed up with the concept of quotas and some still feel that
> there are quotas involved.  That is not the case.  
	.
	.
> AA does not mandate our hire, it just makes us think more
> carefully about it.

  I think that is perfectly legitimate.  But consider the following: right 
at this moment in Canada (we are in the middle of a constitutional crisis 
and potential constitutional reform) there are calls for a reformed Senate 
with 50% of the senators guaranteed to be women.  One of our federal 
political parties has decided that in the next election it will field 50% 
female candidates (this party has enough trouble recruiting talented people
as it is).  I think you would agree that these numbers are quotas, pure and 
simple.  

  I would like to hear ideas about how we can get to a better system
without these crude and statistically bogus notions.  That is, Joseph
asked, "if not AA, what?", and I'm asking, "if AA, how?"

-Darrell. 
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:28:44 GMT

In article <2AB3BF7F.25179@news.service.uci.edu>, srw@horus.ps.uci.edu (Steven White) writes:
> |> 
> |>   Most academics know a lot about a very small area.  There is little 
> |> reason to think this skill translates into above average judgement about 
> |> what will benefit society, or even into good judgement about their own 
> |> personal actions.  Take Heidegger and Paul de Man as examples.
> |> 
> |> -Darrell.
> 
> Just because academics know a lot about a very small area does not
> mean they know little about other areas. Look at people like
> Stephen J. Gould, Lester Thurow, Richard Feynman, Linus Pauling...
> In these people the same exceptional intelligence that made them
> outstanding academics in their area gave them exceptional understanding 
> of many other things.

  Fair enough.  I was pointing out that the sets "outstanding academic" and 
"outstanding breadth of understanding" are not necessarily the same one, and 
this comment reminds us that they are not necessarily disjoint either.  I
would think we agree that exceptional people are a rarity in any profession,
(by definition, right?) and to be cherished wherever they are found.
 
> Do you think you can make a case for some other profession having
> better judgement? Lawyers? Politicians? Business executives?

  You forgot the electronic media, maybe Peter Jennings would do a better
job of setting a social agenda :-)  Just because I reject the notion that
academics would be significantly more humanitarian emperors doesn't mean 
that I have my own pet group I'd like to install.  Personally, I think
having lots of groups competing to influence the social agenda is the best 
way to ensure we have lots of ideas, and to get people participating.

  If academics really were exceptionally intelligent and progressive people,
wouldn't the whole discussion about the need for AA in university hiring be 
moot?  

-Darrell.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 23:05:04 GMT

In article <12SEP199216440752@jetson.uh.edu> schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.) writes:
>
>Faculty are privileged members of privileged groups of (hopefully)
>very intelligent people that should be thinking constantly about
>how they can benefit society.  

University is a professional establishment where taxpayers are coming to
be taught and scholars are coming teach them and do research. The rest of
it is out of the limits of a professional organization and within the
realm of politics. There are ways to influence political decisions,
like running and being elected for office by taxpayers. 

The problem is that some people within the professional organization
are using the power they are having to influence hiring decisions,
for causes which they may perceive as "noble". But their "noble"
causes are (1) not related to the professional goals of universities 
and (2) are not universally pereceived as "noble". Affirmative
action is a good example. It has been debated for many years, and 
certainly not all tax and tuition payers would agree to it.

This places the professionals in a university in a situation that even
politicians cannt dream about: to influence hiring decisions without
any danger to their jobs and without the need to report to the public 
once in 4 years or so what they are doing, and get the public approval
to it. And there are also many intelligent people outside the 
universities and also not so intelligent people inside the universities.
Why should university professionals be given such power ?



Dov















Suggestions otherwise are now 
>being used by ideologically-opposed powerful groups to hide the
>fact that they had their own social agenda for decades.  At least
>some people are now being honest about the debate.
>
>
>
>> 
>>>Leonard Evens      len@math.nwu.edu      708-491-5537
>>>Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208
>> 
>> 


Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: andersmh@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANDERSON  MIKE HOWARD)
Subject: Re: comment on AA and faculties
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:06:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.161008.12255@engage.pko.dec.com> bechtler@asdg.enet.dec.com (Laurie Bechtler) writes:
>
[stuff deleted]
>
>When interviewing with the faculty for a research assistant position,
>one told me he preferred Catholic, non-smoking males who had wives to
>support them.  (I'm female; he never ever had a female student.)  
>Another wanted only foreign students because he could drive them ha
>harder (this was a white male; the first guy was Indian).  One Indian
>professor took only Indians because he could make them accept half
>salaries that the Americans wouldn't accept.  Anyone who thinks that
>a department is free of stuff like this is crazy.
>
>And my advisor complained endlessly about committee obligations.  

If this is true, and I don't doubt it I've heard similar stories,
these people should be brought  up on charges.  I wish I had a
way of preventing such abuses.   However, just because this stuff
happens is not a reason to institutionalize a practice that
may be similar.


>no one can demand that there be a job waiting for them when they get
>out.  Years ago people made fun of PhDs in Medieval German, etc., 
>because the knowledge was so un-marketable.  But there were still
>students who studied it because they loved it.  Perhaps PhD degrees
>in science are becoming the same way...there's no question that the
>students in the programs love it and are good at it (ok, not ALL the
>students!).  But there is a question about how many PhDs in astro-
>physics or computer science the world really needs.  

There is a major difference between these types of liberal art
Ph.D.s  and the sciences.  The government puts a lot of money into 
research in science, most of which is done by graduate students.
This creates a demand for graduate students, which in turn implies
that the field is good.  If the government feels science is important
enough to fund, it should make sure the money is going to support
a balenced system and not lure students into it if they can't make
a living at it.  If grad school in science was like the liberal arts;
6k a year for a TA, no prospect of grant funding, etc, there would
be far fewer students than there are.  The history department in my school
has maybe 20 students whereas physics has over 100.  When I made
the decision to go to grad school, I was definitely influenced by the
fact that I would make 14k a year and I felt the worst case scenario
was that I would go to industry.  There is still a large demand for
grad students, but the demand for them to graduate is nil.  Science grad
students should be for the replenishment of the ranks, not as the 
prime source of science labor.  Yes, I think we are "owed" a job.
If not, I would say we are being terribly exploited.

Mike
From: David.Koert@CoE.Drexel.EDU (Dave Koert)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Repost: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:41:44 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Drexel University
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6D3EA21670114E2@n1-20-226-hess-lab.coe.drexel.edu>
X-Xxdate: Wed, 9 Sep 92 17:51:29 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9

I asked a colleague to find out what had happened (he had a friend on the
search committee at the university in New England).  The reason I was not
given the offer (so the story goes) is that the Dean and/or Department Head
insisted that an applicant who was a member of an under represented gender
be given the offer even though this applicant did not fit the slot (area
of expertise) they sought to fill.

I know, I know... who ever told me life was always fair.  I always *thought*
that it was reasonable that members of underprivileged groups be given
advantages so that past and present discrimination could be balanced.  I
find that since I was the victim of an instance of this balancing act I
*feel* less prone to be to be the humanitarian.

In speaking with two colleagues who are search committee members at a
university that is very local to me and shall rename nameless ;-) I was
told that they made two lists of final candidates for a recent opening:
list A for women and minorities, and list B for the rest.  The position
was filled by a well qualified female.

As I read what I have just written I realize it may look like whining from
a chauvinist, but I'll risk it to ask for a reasonable discussion of the
subject.  Even though I *feel* I was somehow cheated, I am forced to
reason by the compelling argument that past and present discrimination
should to be compensated for by institutional policies of preference for
under represented groups.  However, I would like to come up with a list
of reasonable arguments against this practice also.

dave koert, research assist. prof.        | (disgruntler)
combustion & fuels group, hess labs       |  "Nuke the unborn, gay whale"
Mechanical Eng. Dept. (MEM), Drexel Univ. |          bumper sticker
David.Koert@CoE.Drexel.EDU                |          seen in RI, 1983
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:06:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.150507.11312@news.acns.nwu.edu> len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens) writes:
>In article <1992Sep12.165259.26019@tc.cornell.edu> bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep12.155055.22185@news.acns.nwu.edu> len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens) writes:
>>>In article <11SEP199209542037@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>>
>>>Of course, they are usually
>>>very enthusiastic about exceptional candidates, but they may be even more
>>>enthusiastic in the case of women.
>>
>>This sentence is typical of the attitude that I find so disturbing
>>in senior faculty members. They dont say: we would like to be 
>>gender-neutral in our hiring practices, but unfortunately 
>>affirmative-action directives instruct us otherwise. Rather, they
>>sound so excited and enthusiastic, that  you cannt miss their social
>>agenda.
>>
>

>What I am talking about is candidates
>for whom we would be in vigorous competition with other institutions.

Oh, this one is trivial. The "right" genes gets extra enthusiasm 
not only at your school, but everywhere.

>I think you can conclude at best that
>our administrators have given us a not very subtle signal that they
>want to hire very highly qualified women.  

If the women are qualified and your school is in competition
with others, why do the women need the extra enthusiasm ? 

>By the way, I admit freely to the following social agenda.   I think
>that when in balance two candidates seem equally qualified (according
>to what seem relevant criteria), women or members of
>discriminated against groups should be given preference.  My reasons for 
>this agenda are partly selfish.   I have a wife and children who
>in their areas are very well qualified.  I can see that my wife and
>daughters still face discrimination.  A little effort to restore
>the balance is called for.   However, any time I see a candidate
>being pushed primarily for reasons of race or gender I will oppose
>it.  (My son needs a little justice too.)
>

This part speaks for itself, and supports what I am arguing all the time.
I would not comment any farther.

>Leonard Evens      len@math.nwu.edu      708-491-5537
>Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208

Dov
From: hcw0@aber.ac.uk (Howard Charles Windsor)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: 11 Sep 92 11:53:09 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

As of yet I am still a student and have not yet had to apply for posts but as 
far as I see it, what should happen is that the job should be given on the 
basis of ability. If there has been discrimination in the past against minority
groups (which I am quite prepared to believe), should a lower standard 
applicant be given the job when there is a more suitable applicant who happens 
to be of the wrong race. That is racism as well .

Howard


-- 
 Howard Windsor   Email:hcw0@uk.ac.aber  Bulletin board name:Warthog     
"Religion and Sex are powerplays, Manipulate the people with the money they pay
Selling skin, Selling God, The numbers look the same on their credit cards"
					Queensryche "Operation: Mindcrime"
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:56:54 GMT

In article <13SEP199215061506@jetson.uh.edu> schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.) writes:
>In article <1992Sep12.230504.2997@tc.cornell.edu>, bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes...
>>In article <12SEP199216440752@jetson.uh.edu> schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.) writes:
>>>
>>>Faculty are privileged members of privileged groups of (hopefully)
>>>very intelligent people that should be thinking constantly about
>>>how they can benefit society.  
>> 
>>University is a professional establishment where taxpayers are coming to
>>be taught and scholars are coming teach them and do research. The rest of
>>it is out of the limits of a professional organization and within the
>>realm of politics. There are ways to influence political decisions,
>>like running and being elected for office by taxpayers. 
>
>This is a very "noble" vision of academia.  But let me ask you some
>questions.  Which degrees should be offered?  What courses should
>be offered to fulfill that degree?  What content should there be
>in each of those courses?  

Here are few examples for Chemistry departments:

  Ch. 150r: Organic Chemistry of Right Genes
  Ch. 150w: Organic Chemistry of Wrong Genes 

>What material should every person 
>receiving degree x be required to know?  What grades should be
>passing?  

  That depends of course on the overall genetic composition of
  the student body. If the person has wrong genes only, he needs at least
  B+. If the person has only the Right Genes, F might be enough. 
    
>Just before lecture,
>some of my, say black female students who are in the majority,
>are "legally expressing their opinions" to the minority white
>male students that white males are inherently inferior, and 
>shouldn't be allowed in the class at all. 

Well, she only applies what she has learnt in Ch. 150w


-:)

Dov


Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: karr@cs.cornell.edu (David Karr)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:21:27 GMT

In article <BuF0oE.3w@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond) writes:
>  More importantly, these are not the only valid (or even the best)
>arguments against affirmative action.

I should have been clearer.  When I said "the only valid" I really 
meant "out of the above, the only valid."

>  I
>also remember hearing a report to the effect that affirmative action in
>admissions to an Ivy League college (Princeton?) was resulting in
>higher dropout and failure rates of exactly those candidates that had
>received preferential treatment.  The reason was simple: if you allow
>candidates who have less ability, they'll find it harder to succeed at
>the work.

If you recruit from poor inner cities, you will get less well-prepared
students because their schools are not as good as in the rich suburbs.
This will certainly make it harder for them to succeed and tend to
cause a higher dropout rate.

There are other possibilities as well.  Just because Princeton has an
affirmative action program does not mean the "preferred" students
don't end up facing higher hurdles to actually get through.  I've gone
to schools where the blacks ate at one table in the cafeteria and the
whites at another.  If you were the only black in the cafeteria and
ate by yourself, you'd get adequate nourishment.  But if you tried to
take a physics or math course and no other students would talk to you,
your grade would probably suffer a lot.  (I can remember getting
really zapped in some courses in which I was a "loner.")

I'm not sure why we should therefore assume that the student's natural
"ability" is less, in any case.

>  Thus extra preferential treatment is necessary to get them
>to graduate, and then to get jobs, and so the process perpetuates
>itself.

Only if your only solution is to lower standards.  You could instead
put effort into extra training and other support in order to improve
the students and make them more competitive.  In fact the engineering
school at Cornell is doing just this.  For example, as a TA I 
received some training which was intended to improve my ability to
teach students from different backgrounds.

>  To carry your analogy through, the point is that the force you apply 
>will necessarily destabilize some other object.  

Counterexample: I am sitting in my chair.  The force of gravity is
tending to make me fall.  The chair is opposing this force.  The chair
and all other objects involved (building, Earth, etc.) are quite
stable.

In any case, you misinterpreted the analogy.  The opportunities of
two different applicants are not two different objects in my model.
The stable configuration includes both of them.

-- David Karr (karr@cs.cornell.edu)
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: News of Fabrikant - 3
Date: 10 Sep 92 23:13:47 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <Sep.10.10.09.21.1992.16359@cadenza.rutgers.edu> masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola) writes:
>ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
>
>[ Fabrikant:]
>
>>"Violence is not being produced by itself out of nothing.  This particular
>>act of violence was carefully planned and nurtured and I have documents for
>>that."
>
>That makes it first-degree murder. It appears that the man is trying,
>successfully, to self-destruct. Too bad he had to take others with
>him.
>
>Does Canada have the death penalty?
>

No, it is a civilized country ....
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Asian-American success (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions)
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:43:09 GMT

In article <92Sep14.234556.30881@acs.ucalgary.ca> bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens) writes:
>In article <1992Sep13.233438.10071@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
>>
>>The extracurricular activities excuse is a perfectly legitimate one. In fact
>>its a damned immportant criterion for colleges to use in undergraduate
>>admissions. My question is, since when have Asian students accelled any less
>>at extracurricular activities than at academics?

Old argument.  The AA contingent recognized this barrier a long time ago and
are very active in extracurricular activities.  One school in San Francisco
had to create 64 student offices because the competition to be in school
government had gotten too fierce :-)