HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Jews and booze
Date: 14 Sep 1992 16:20:06 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Hello Adria:

I've followed your postings for months now, and I don't want to hurt
your feelings, so I'm going to do my best to disagree with you on a few
points without hurting you.

First, you make a judgement about AA in general by looking at AA in
your area (not just one meeting but many meetings). Normally, this is a
good idea, but as I remember your posts and posts from another in your
area, I wouldn't call AA "normal" there. Whatever is happening in your
neck of the woods is definitely not happening where *I* am, and does
not conform to the Traditions.  So...although I agree that AA in your
area is bizarre, I don't think is applies to AA in general. When AA
members do not seem to be conforming to what is written in the Big
Book, stick with the Big Book.

Second, you write that Jewish leaders do not believe that their
membership are alcoholics. This was true at one time. The fact is that
Jews, until the 1960's, have not had a problem with alcoholism to any
significant extent. There was a lack of awareness amongst Jewish
leadership on the alcohol issue.

However, that has change dramatically in the last few years. I am an
alcoholic and was on the board of directors of our synagogue (and
everyone knew I was alcoholic). A friend of mine (in AA) was just
elected president of a major Jewish organization here (all the
leadership knows he's an alcoholic). L'Chiam and other Jewish 12 step
programs have formed and Chabad has attacked this problem with
enthusiasm. My wife is on the executive board of a major Jewish
organization here. Our synagogue educator told me she wants to make our
synagogue alcohol free. That means substituting grape juice for wine
for everyone. For several years we have already provided grape juice
along with wine at all of our religious ceremonies. Everyone is very
aware of this problem and are willing to solve it.

I think even if Jews stopped drinking they would still find some excuse
for not paying their dues. That's a fact. Rosh Hashanah is coming up
and my father-in-law is treasurer this year for our synagogue. He's
heard them all.

Your basic points on support for alternative programs and modes of
recovery are well taken.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
From: weiss872@CLEARWATER.CS.UIDAHO.EDU (Phil Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: This newsgroup (bickering bickering bickering)
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:51:28 GMT

This newsgroup has turned into a bickering war (which I have
participated in).  I am tired of it.

I am not bitching about cross-talk.  Cross-talk is alright by
me.  But this particular thread is out of hand.

Look, I don't care if you believe AA works or does not work.
I don't care if you believe that non-AA works or does not work.

And more importantly, I don't care why you came to either
conclusion.  And I don't care about any justifications for
either.

If the solution I have found has depth and weight, people with
my problem will listen.  Either that, or they will not.

Here's the deal.  AA worked for me.  Richard and several other's
claim something else worked for them.  Whatever.  I will tell
you folks what I did.  Richard can tell you what he did.  Robert
can tell you what he did.  Alex can tell you what he did.  Heart
Dancer can tell you what she did.  Pick whatever you want and
live with the consequences.

Good day!

Phil.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch)
Subject: Re: Amends revisited
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:52:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.193036.9354@u.washington.edu> taylor@hardy.u.washington.edu (Allen D. Taylor) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.201851.27339@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch) writes:

>[re my mention of abuse victims]
>I am not an abuse victim, I am an abuse survivor.

Sorry for the non-PC term.  I've worked the word "recovered" out of my
lexicon in favor of the PC term "recovering", and I've learned not to use
the word "victim" in conjunction with "incest", only "survivor", but I
have not yet eradicated the word "victim" altogether, and since the par-
ticular form of abuse I experienced was not incest, it slipped through.

>>If the Big Book and the 12&12 say that any time I have a resentment I
>>automatically owe an amends, that if every time I am wronged I am auto-
>>matically in the wrong myself, then the Big Book and 12&12 are wrong.
>
>However, my question is, where in the BB or 12&12 
>does it say that a resentment automatically gets an amends. I want to
>see citations.

That's why I said "if".  I've heard lots of passages in the literature
interpreted that way, sometimes by people here in a.r.  I'll let those
people provide the citations.  Personally, there are so many parts of
the literature that I believe are simply not true, that I prefer to
excise them from my program rather than debate tham.  My only cause for
debate is whether the body of AA literature, or specifically that written
by Bill Wilson should be taken as gospel.

>[very good distinction between forgiving, absolving and excusing his
>abusers]
>While I held onto the resentment, I was giving them power.

This was precisely the crux of my abuse issues.  For me, reward and punish-
ment are useless concepts a lot more of the time than our religions and
our judicial system would have us believe.  It would do absolutely nothing
for me to inflict upon my abusers whatever punishments the rest of society
might agree they deserve.  It still won't undo what was done to me.

But what *was* done to me?  What was done was that, as the previous poster 
mentioned, I was placed in a system of absolute tyrannical power.  Breaking
the power structure undid that.  (This is why I'm always afraid of any
sort of absolute power, despite assurances that it's onmibenevolent.)

-Ed
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.com (Enigma)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 19:22:22 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: na

In article <1992Sep11.175203.18176@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch) writes:
>In article <2AAFF403.20018@news.service.uci.edu> altshule@skid.ps.uci.edu (Eric Altshuler) writes:
>>>Unfortunately the more effective methods don't get a tenth of the
>>>publicity that AA gets, and AA isn't interested in telling anyone 
>>>about them, so most people don't know about them.
>>
>>Have to disagree with you here.  AA does not advertise.  No one 
>>endorses us.
>
>True, AA does not advertise (except for the occasional late-night PSA),
>but it does get far more publicity and tacit endorsement than any other 
>recovery program.
>
[examples deleted]
>
>The point here is that regardless of whether or not it asked to be,
>AA is far and away the best known recovery program.  It is so much 
>more widely known than RR, SOS, WFS, etc., that it is often seen as 
>"the only game in town" even when it isn't.

If those other programs are as effective as AA (or even half as
effective), I'm sure we'll be hearing about them.  I've been
watching for someone one here to post their experience with one
of these programs, but I haven't seen anything.  Could someone fill
us in, please?

>On another note, _The Real Thirteenth Step_ was written by Tina
>Tessina.  Its thesis is that the 12 Steps do nothing to break the
>cycle of dependence, but merely substitute one addiction for 
>another, and that true freedom from addiction can only be achieved
>through development of a healthy autonomy (as opposed to becoming
>a pathological control freak).
>

This is the exact opposite of my experience.  At least I don't
*think* I'm a "pathological control freak".  :-)

Holly
-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!!
Date: 8 Sep 1992 13:13:46 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes:

> |mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera) writes:
> |: James is right though. There has been a lot of garbage dumping going
> |: on.
[a list of helpful hints deleted]
>..., but I've never heard that harsh criticism was
> on the list. Seems kind of counter-productive to me.

If the rest of my life were filled with criticisms every bit as harsh
as the one I gave, my future would be bliss.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 15 Sep 1992 17:14:48 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes how the slogans
promote a mindless, thoughtless lack of analysis. But he forgets or
never learned another slogan, "Think, Think, Think." That means to
think the drink through. I don't see these slogans as dogmatic. I see
these slogans as...well...slogans.

Richard then tries to prove that AA is dogmatic because although he
received many rational thoughtful, calm responses to his posts, he also
received some hostile and defensive postings. But his very words prove
that AA is not dogmatic. He admits that there are rational,thoughtful
members of AA. He then goes on to criticise the news group itself
thinking mistakenly that it is a forum for AA and somehow represents
AA.

Finally he makes an appeal for concerned AA members to hand out an
information sheet reminding the newcomer of various other possible
recovery programs. I don't see anything wrong with this, but it would
take a lot of commitment to implement it since each group is autonomous
and seem to insist on that autonomy. Logistically it would be a
nightmare without a national consensus. Considering the reaction by
some of the AA members here, the best one could hope for is a lukewarm
response. That is not enough to implement such a policy. Perhaps on a
local level Richard might find support for such a policy.

I sat on this one for a good long time. You should have seen the first
draft :-).

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
From: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com (Maurice E. Suhre)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Organization: TRW, INC.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:01:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.214224.28981@zip.eecs.umich.edu> carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
 
>Well, I wonder what would happen if I went to an AA meeting and stood
>up and said, "Hi, my name is Richard, I have a moderate drinking
>problem but I'm not an alcoholic."  Possibly in *your* group this
>statement wouldn't raise any eyebrows, and there would be no
>pressures, spoken or unspoken, subtle or unsubtle, on me to label
>myself as an alcoholic, but I think that such a group would be
>unusual.

Well, your thinking does not match my *experience*.  I arrived late
(incorrect instructions as to start time) to the first meeting I
attended and was not asked for any identification (presumably it was an
open meeting).  I got to the second one on time, and when the newcomers
were standing up and identifying themselves as "alcoholic" or
"alcoholic-addict" I said "I'm not sure".  I don't remember if there
were any giggles or not, but I wouldn't have been surprised if there
were a few.  In any event, the subject of the meeting became "How do
you tell if you are an alcoholic?".  I heard a lot of stories about
jails, gutters, throwing up lots and at very inopportune times, fights,
... just the usual wreckage one hears about at meetings.  At the second
meeting I went to, again I said "I'm not sure".  Again the subject was
"How do you tell if you are an alcoholic?" I heard essentially the same
stories -- jails, hospitals, fights, throwing up, etc.  When I went to
the third meeting, I lied through my teeth and said I was alcoholic.  I
wanted to hear more about the *program*.  I had heard enough about
throwing up, et al.

Admittedly a sample of two doesn't prove much, but I think there is a
certain tolerance in my geographic area.  Most of us believe the line
"Nobody gets here by accident".  It is not universally true (I did meet
one fellow who was unlucky to get picked up DUI and got sent by the
courts).  I believe that he is *not* alcoholic, and it was just
irresponsibility or some such and he got drunk and got caught.

Back to the guy who says "I can't believe in AA.  I guess I'll just have
to drink myself to death."  If I went to a doctor and he told me I had a
fatal illness, I think I'd get a second opinion.  Why wouldn't this guy
try for a second opinion or alternate solution?

I would concede that it might help a few people if some of the other
organizations (Rational Recovery for example) had a little more
publicity.

I am fairly confident that if you go to a meeting and say something like
"I have a slight drinking problem and I want to learn how to control my
drinking" you might be met with some laughter.  Those in AA are there
because they could not find a way to control their drinking.  And we
have all tried.  While I can only speak for myself, I am quite confident
in that characterization of the membership.
-- 
Maurice Suhre
suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: 11 Sep 1992 11:54:16 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

dab@ism.isc.com (David A. Butterfield) writes: 

> The purpose of the program is to help people who are addicted to
> alcohol.  The program has a set of means and techniques it uses to
> try to achieve that purpose.  For whatever reason, those means and
> techniques do not work when applied to some people.  To this extent,
> the program is deficient.  

One could say that about ANY technique (even surgery!). There will
always be a percentage of people who will not respond to a particular
method. Is there room from improvement? I suppose so. AA has changed
over the years, I suppose it will continue to evolve.

> In order to help those people, the
> program must become more flexible.  It is the program that is not
> prepared for those people, not the other way around.

On the contrary, it is a program focused for certain types of
alcoholics. At least in the US it would fit for the majority of
alcoholics. To change it as you and others seem to want to do would be
to change the very nature of the program. You would throw out the baby
with the bath water and put your own baby in there. If the AA program
does not meet your needs, start another one that will. Don't go
changing a program that has worked for thousands. Start another program
and save the others.

You and I sound like two men in a sinking boat. You keep saying. "Give
me the bucket and I'll bail out my end of the boat and we'll be saved!" I
say, "I'm already bailing the boat. Get your own bucket!"

> For those people for whom the program works, that's great.  But
> let's not fool ourselves into thinking that the people it fails
> for don't deserve to be helped.  

Go for it. Help them. I'm already bailing most of the water.

> Let's instead improve and diversify
> our means and techniques for helping people so that those improved
> methods can help a greater percentage of people who need it.

I agree on diversity. Start another program. My opinion is that most
will eventually come back to AA once they've tried your new and
improved version.

We aren't mindless drones. We just know what works.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: sher@umbc4.umbc.edu (Sherri Crain)
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!!
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 05:56:06 GMT

In article <29671@ursa.UUCP> millman@ursa.UUCP (Phillip Millman) writes:
>mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera) writes:


>I have to agree.  Too many times I hear people whining about their problems
>and not doing anything about them.  (Let me get my Asbestos Suit on)
>Some people in my BIASED, UNPROFESSIONAL OPINION haven't suffered enough
>to seriously work the program.  

>Let's get to the business of RECOVERY!

Not everyone who reads this newsgroup belong to a program.  Believe it
or not,there are more ways to recover than through 12 step programs,or
through the methods that work for you.

Sometimes whining is a part of the process of recovery.  It may annoy
some of us,but let me ask you this,"haven't you ever been annoyed by
something someone shared at a meeting?"  

I gotta tell you,I was raised by a mother who is a martyr to the hilt and
for years and I mean YEARS,I played the role of the victim.  I bitched and
whined about everything that went down in my life and I blamed everyone but
myself for it.  I continued to play the role of the victim for the first
several years of my sobriety for several reasons...1) I truly didn't realize
I was doing it  and  2) I didn't know of any other way to handle my life
situations.  You've probably heard the promise "we will intuitively know
how to handle situations that used to baffle us."  Well,nowhere in that
statement does it mention how long it'll take to get to that point.

I don't think any of us can claim to have such a perfect life or work
such a perfect program that we've never bitched and whined about *something*
that went down in our lives.


-- 

     Lack of planning on your part                 -sher   
doesn't justify an emergency on my part     sher@umbc3.umbc.edu
From: taylor@hardy.u.washington.edu (Allen D. Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: alternative to AA
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:49:47 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Sep14.201644.21384@cs.brown.edu> psm@cs.brown.edu (Phoebe Martone) writes:
>
>SECULAR HEALING - Addiction (info was in LEAR'S July 1992)
>
>Jack Trimpy, a social worker in California, recognized in the 70's
>...
>He founded Rational Recovery Systems. "In 6 mos. I starte dto feel
>...
>He published in 1989 "The Small Book" which opposes the teenets of AA
>
>For more info: Rational Recovery P.O. Box 800, Lotus, CA 95651
>or call 916 621-2667.
>
>

I think it's only fair to point out that RR is a for profit corporation and
Trimpey gets a royalty from the sale of "The Small Book."  This does not
invalidate his, or it's, claims.  Just mentioned in the interest of full
disclosure.  This is not hearsay, but from an interview of him on a Seattle
TV Talk show.


--Allen

==============================================================================
Allen D. Taylor       University of Washington   taylor@cac.washington.edu
Information Systems   Seattle, Washington  USA   Human 1st - World Citizen 2nd
==============================================================================

>
>I just had to share this. I think it's so exciting.
>Phoebe at Computer Science Dept. Brown University
>
>
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: I WANT A BEER!!!
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 04:41:18 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

I know there is real point in writing this here, but I had to let it out.

Mark
From: starshine@igc.apc.org
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Date: 10 Sep 92 23:05 PDT
Subject: Goodbye from Starshine
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1309900063:000:1771
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!starshine    Sep 10 23:05:00 1992


Hi Everyone,

I'm writing to say goodbye, as Starshine, because I am closing my
account at the end of the month.  If you want to stay in touch,
email me and I'll send you my other email address.  I will no doubt
continue to lurk at alt.recovery but will not be posting as
"Starshine."

I've travelled around the U.S. a lot and had intended to see some
of the folks I met at alt.recovery but I found that I wasn't able
to do that, using most of my energy for my adventure.  I just had
to cut loose from seeing most of my new friends.  I have developed
a couple of really tight friendships, though, with people I met
here.  Two of my very closest friends originally contacted me
through alt.recovery.

I'm going to be settling in the San Francisco Bay Area or Coast to
the south.  I intend to go to a lot of meetings to make friends and
get help with my issues.  I've camped out a lot; and my health
seems stronger than before, so that I can probably get to more
meetings.  I originally took on the pseudonym "Starshine" because
my A.A. sponsor and myself agreed that I shouldn't post my personal
stuff here under my real name because I am too well known and
controversial; and my personal stuff is nobody's business (except
as I want it to be).  The programs I expect to be most active in
are A.R.T.S., Overeaters Anonymous, and Debtors Anonymous.  I am in
my 22nd year of A.A. sobriety, am drug- and cigarette-free, and my
other addictions and compulsions are arrested for today, through
the Grace of God and the 12-steps.

I am very grateful to alt.recovery for its existence when I wasn't
able to get out to many meetings; and I am grateful for two of the
most wonderful friends I have ever known -- Jim B. and "the Lurker"
--both of whom I met here.

Hugs,

Starshine
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Abstinence (was: easier?)
Date: 15 Sep 1992 17:14:48 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:

> Guys, I'm out of here. As long as you give these folks their druthers
> (Argue with me! I _desperately_ need to prove this point to somebody!)
> they'll keep it up. I'll be on the twelve step list, with the folks who
> are looking for a solution...8-)

You would deny me these few moments of justifiable anger? Jim. Jim.
Jim. :-) Actually, I am not angry. This is just the way I work. If I
see an injustice, I work to correct it. One of my friends asked me why
I beat my head over these types of things. I don't. I enjoy this. It
keeps my mind sharp. The other reason is that I can do it with
relative impunity since I don't carry the resentments away with me.

As far as those who continue to argue, I love them! It gives me yet
another chance to say that AA is the program that saved my life. It
continues to save my life and the lives of my friends. Thank G-d for
AA.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah

Newsgroups: alt.recovery