HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Eckersley NOT better than Fingers
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 19:01:01 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.183239.11547@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> glb50263@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Gary L. Blickhan) writes:
>Simply put, Eckersley is not better than Rollie Fingers.
>
>1)Fingers is already in the Hall of Fame.  A Sporting News poll of baseball
>writers concluded that Eckersley's chances are about "even money."

Probative, but not conclusive.

>2)Fingers won the Cy Young award ***and*** the AL MVP in 1981, making him
>the first pitcher to win both in the same year.  (Willie Hernandez did it
>in 1984, but his name is not in this discussion.)  Eckersley has not won
>either award once.

Fingers didn't do it for the A's, though, I don't believe.  And a relief
pitcher doing well over a four month stretch is not unreasonable.

>3)Fingers led the majors in saves three times (1977,1978,1981).  Eckersley
>has only done that once.

In four years of relief.  Fingers did it in a different era: did he ever
have a stretch of four years where he saved 169 games?

>4)Fingers has the all-time record for saves. (341)   Eckersley had 188 at
>the end of 1991.

Fingers's record will be broken by Reardon this year.  He also accomplished
his record over an entire career, where Eck was primarily a starter for 12
of his 17 years.

>5)In three World Series apiece, Eckersley did hardly anything.
>1988- 0 wins, 1 loss, 10.8 ERA.  He was the goat.
>1989- 1 save in 1 2/3 innings. 0 ERA.  Pretty good.
>1990- 0 wins, 1 loss, 6.75 ERA.  0 Saves.  Not good.
> 
> Fingers was great.  
> 1972- 1 win, 1 loss, 2 saves, 11 k's, 1.74 ERA.
> 1973- 0 wins, 1 loss, 2 saves, 8 k's, 0.66 ERA.
> 1974- 1 win, 0 losses, 2 saves, 6 k's, 1.93 ERA.

Inherited baserunners?  Both lost two games in three World Series, and
Fingers had a lot more help than Eck did.  What about LCS?

> Fingers would have pitched in the 1982 World Series with the Brewers, but
> he was injured.

We're judging best A's all-time relievers.

> 6) Fingers has a 2.90 ERA compared to the 3.47 ERA of Eckersley.

Fingers was a reliever his entire career, Eck was a starter for the vast
majority of innings -- that makes a big ERA difference there, especially
when you consider Eck's years with Boston in the early 80's.  As a
reliever over the last four seasons, Dennis has an ERA of 1.90, a full
run lower than Rollie.

> 7) Eckersley is no longer effective.  I believe he was tagged for 11 or so
> long balls.  Donnie Hill of the Angels got his only homer of the season
> of the Eck.  

Eckersly was quite inconsistent last year, but 208/235/365 is still well
above average.  It's hard to argue with close to a 10:1 K:W ratio.
-- 
Ted Frank          + "He wanted to be the car rather than the thimble or the
1307 E 60 St, #109 +  hat."  -- District attorney explaining Marc Cienkowski's
U o' C Law Skool   +  murder with bow and arrow of Michael Klucznik in
Chi, IL 60637      +  Doylestown Borough, PA over a game of Monopoly.
From: srobson@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Seth I Robson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Will Clark as a Triple Crowner?
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:32:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: darkstar.32861
Organization: Ren & Stimpy Addicts, Ltd.


In article <1992Apr14.070142.2341@ducvax.auburn.edu> kenneth@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
>I think [WClark] has an _excellent_ shot at a batting title.  As for HR, probably
>not, and RBI, he has as good a shot as anyone.  A lot depends on the seasons
>of the people hitting in front of him.

I would say that Will Clark has as good a shot as anyone in the NL of winning
the triple crown.  He's capable of hitting 30+ HR again, but he probably
will never get enough in one season to ever lead the league.  He's also
quite capable of winning a batting title (lost that to Gwynn in '89 on the
last weekend of the season), and he's already got one RBI crown in the bag
and very nearly scored another last year (once again, lost on the last
weekend).  Barry Bonds places a close second for NL TC threats.  He could
very well win the "quadruple crown" (+ SB) that Ty Cobb won way back when,
but I don't know if he can do everything well enough to take any particular
category.  If he has a monster year for his salary drive, look out...  You
still can't rule out Ryne Sandberg either, but I don't see a batting title
in his future.

The best threats reside in the AL, the most obvious being Frank Thomas.
Griffey Jr. and Sierra probably don't have the necessary HR acumen to
pull it all off, but they're worth considering.  

--
Seth I. Robson; srobson@ucscb.ucsc.edu  [ humm-baby! ]
University of California, Santa Cruz
"There's something kind of EUUUUUUUGH about a kid that doesn't like
 to play baseball..."  -- Foghorn Leghorn.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: frankkim@athena.mit.edu (Frank S Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: who's in the bullpen?
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:00:22 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Hi,

I was just wondering if anyone knows whether these people are the definite
stoppers for their teams:

Wetteland (Montreal Expos)
Reardon (Red Sox - I can't imagine anyone else but you never know in Boston)
Olin (Cleveland Indians)
Belinda (Pittsburgh Pirates)

Also, what is Dave Stieb's status?  Is Juan Samuel still the everyday second
baseman for the Dodgers?

Thanks,
Frank
From: rsibet@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Rand Sibet)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Shane Mack
Date: 12 Apr 92 05:45:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: orbit.7455
Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN.

steveo@shamu.micro.umn.edu (Stephen Andrew Schmid) writes:
    
>Mack suffered a mild concussion.  Reports from the hospital he was sent
>to came up with nothing serious and they(Twins) think he will be back in 
>there tonight (Friday) for Twins home opener against Texas.
    
He was only 4 for 5 with a leadoff homer. Turns out the guy who beaned
him was an "old buddy" who would never do it intentionally, according
to the local paper.
Inet: rsibet@pnet51.orb.mn.org  |
Uucp: kksys!orbit!pnet51!rsibet |  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: The GRAND Unveiling : -)
Organization: American Software Development Corp., W. Babylon, NY
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 18:18:00 GMT

I've been real busy and have not had a chance to post my predictions.
Since I feel real good for coming in second in one NCAA pool and third
in another (thanks to the Dookies! :-) I figured "what the hey...."


NL EAST		NL WEST			AL EAST		AL WEST
-------		-------			-------		-------
Pittsburgh	Cincinatti		Toronto		Chicago
New York	Atlanta			Boston		Seattle
Chicago		Los Angeles		New York	Oakland
St. Louis	San Deigo		Baltimore	Minnesota
Montreal	San Francisco		Detroit		Texas
Philadelphia	Houston			Milwaukee	Kansas City
					Cleveland	California

NL Playoffs:	Cincinatti over Pittsburg in 5
AL Playoffs:	Toronto over Chicago in 6
World Series:	Toronto over Cincinatti in 6  (a big limb we are climbing! :-)

COMMENTS:
NL East - Places 2-5 are interchangable.  I don't like Philly's pitching.
	The Cards have to show me that last year was not a fluke.  Montreal
	could make things very interesting--I may be misreading them.  This
	is the Pirates last hurrah on this run.  Probably the weakest division.
NL West - Houston could look stronger going into their "road trip from hell."
	San Deigo makes this race interesting.  Will Tommy have Darryl and
	Kal make nice with each other?  Do we have to endure a year of
	tomahawk chops? (I'm no longer on this bandwagon)
AL East - Places 3-6 interchangable.  Cleveland seems almost hopeless! :-)
	Yankees may surprise (with little pitching... if they can trade for
	some, watch out).  Two horse race and I like the Canadian entry.
AL West - Oakland's run may be over and could be Eck's last hurrah in the Bay
	Area.  ChiSox may be a bigger question with their change in field
	leadership.  The Mets didn't get anywhere with Keith Miller in the OF
	and neither will KC.  I'm rooting for Seattle but this may be the most
	fun division to watch.


So far my take is a whopping $55!  Not too bad for a $10 investment but
I can only wonder if that will carry over to prognosticating baseball?  :-)

[Besides... by waiting for today I can p*ss off Mets haters with my .sig!! :-)]
-- 
scott barman			| Mets 4, Cards 2 (in 10) - Bobby Bonilla 2 HR!
scott@asd.com			|      The Torborg era begins 1-0.
				|            LET'S GO METS!
 (I can barely speak for myself, you expect me to speak for my employer??)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dgh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Doug G. Huffer)
Subject: Re: Royals mailing list
Reply-To: dgh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:50:07 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.192128.8607@hsi.com> geiste@hsi.com (Doug Geiste) writes:
>Can anyone tell me if there's a net mailing list that I can get on for 
>the KC Royals?
>
>Thanks
>
>
>-- 
>Doug Geiste                     |   All puffed-up with vanity, 
>3M Health Information Systems   |   we see what we want to see. 
>...!uunet!his!geiste            |   To the beautiful and the wise, 
>geiste@hsi.com                  |   the mirror always lies.      -- Neil Peart

ditto for me too!!

Might as well post so all those swarming KC fans don't have to cloud up
a lot of bandwith  ;-))

Oh, and by the way, how's Gubicza been doing so far this year, 
it'd be nice to see him get back to pre-injury form


*************************************************************************
* Doug G. Huffer                   * 1992 World Series:			* 
* e-mail: dgh2@quads.uchicago.edu  * Royals over Cubs in 6		* 
* The University of Chicago -      * Hey! and like you predicted the    *
* Home of the fighting Hanna Grays * Braves and Twins in 1991!!         *
*************************************************************************

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: m_lehoul@oz.plymouth.edu (Michael L. Le Houllier)
Subject: Re: MATT YOUNG TOSSES NO-HITTER, LOSES 2-1
Reply-To: m_lehoul@oz.plymouth.edu (Michael L. Le Houllier)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 14:06:20 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.043616.12979@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902159@ariel.yorku.ca (DAVID A LISOGURSKI) writes:
>In article <1992Apr12.210321.28874@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler) writes:
>>
>>     While we're discussing them, though, I'd like to start a thread - what do
>>you think is the most thrilling personal achievment that could happen in a
>>season.  99% of us would say a no-no is the most phenominal single-game one,
>
>A no-no is pretty exciting, but I've never seen anything as exciting as last
>year's perfect game pitched by Dennis Martinez.  A no-hitter is exciting,
>but for a perfect game, you get nervous when there's 3 balls on a batter too!

I agree.  It was exciting as an Expo fan to see this.  I'm gets quite
nerve racking watching it, espically torward the late innings.
>
>BTW, I really think Dennis Martinez should've won the Cy Young last year.
>I know he only had 14 wins, but if you only went by wins, Bill Gullickson
>should've won it in the AL.  Martinez had an ERA about 2.39 or something
>amazing like that, PLUS a perfect game.  And don't forget, he won those
>14 games on a last-place team!  WE WUZ ROBBED   (IMcorrectO)  :-)

Well, perhaps.  As Expo and Blue Jay fans, we are frequently robbed
because they don't want Canadian teams spoiling the American network
ratings in the World Series.  Anyone remember all the bad calls in the
Blue Jays/Royals series back in 1985?
>
>--Dave


-- 
 Michael Le Houllier           *  John 3:16  * Nov 12, 1991 - Dili      
 (m_lehoul@oz.plymouth.edu.us) *  Remember: June 4, 1989 - Beijing
 Go BLUE JAYS  8-1    Mop up the Yanks, bring on the Slop Sox.
 CANADIENS:  First Round  vs. Hartford Whalers... give us a real team!
From: dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Least Valuable Players (career)
Date: 12 Apr 92 02:05:39 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Apr11.234752.671@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca ( ) writes:
>
>Griffin played 6 years in TO, 3 in OAK and 4 in LA.  Toronto, a defending
>champion, just reacquired him.  These 3 organizations are 3 of the most
>successful in the game.  Are you implying that they don't know what they
>are doing?  

In this instance?  Yes.  Fortunately for them, there don't seem to be a lot
of other teams that consistently have a better idea what they are doing.

>No, I think the problem might be found in your one-dimensional
>analysis of a player's worth.

It's not one-dimensional, it's three-dimensional: hitting, fielding, and
baserunning.

>Alfredo Griffin is reported to be a really nice guy, a positive influence
>on the bench, in the clubhouse and on the field - if not at the plate.

And I believe all of these, as I've already explained earlier in this thread.

>Making him the butt of your little statistical jokes shows a complete
>lack of respect for a man who commands a lot more respect from his peers
>than Tony Fernandez.  

The "butt of my little statistical jokes" is the management of the teams that
insist on giving Alfredo significant playing time at the major league level.
I have no opinions whatever of Alfredo Griffin as a human being; I don't know
the man.  I certainly wish him no ill.

>Ask the players if he made a "measurable" contribution.

How would they know?  How do you know?  Just how much bad play does his
clubhouse behavior make up for, as far as wins and losses go?
 

-- 
          David M. Tate            |"The man who hath no music in himself
     dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu       | Nor is not moved by concord of sweet sound
  A poem should be dumb, / As old  | Is fit for treason, stratagems, and spoils
 medallions to the thumb.-MacLeish | 	Shakespeare, "Merchant of Venice", A.V
From: kvigen@puya.gac.edu (Karl K Vigen)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Camden Yards
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:28:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: gacvx2.1992Apr14.102854.876
Distribution: na

In article <1992Apr14.124710.9849@cbnews.cb.att.com>  writes:
> In article <1992Apr13.215833.16128@wam.umd.edu>  
macole@next11csc.wam.umd.edu (Mario A. Cole) writes:
> 
> >In article <1992Apr13.092926.731@dvorak.amd.com>  
twhite@mozart.amd.com  
> >(Tom White) writes:
> >>    So who hit the first homer in the Orioles' new park?
> 
> >Mike Devereaux...nice shot too..
> 
> I thought it was Paul Sorrento of the Indians.
> 
> 
> 
> Dave Elliott


Yes, it was Paul Sorrento, whom the Twins traded away.
Damn!

Kvigen

-- NewsGrazer, a NeXTstep(tm) news reader, posting --
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`
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: marwood@qucis.queensu.ca (Simon Marwood DSC REP)
Subject: Expos sweep !! (was Re: Amazing METS Update)
Keywords: not so amazing now
Organization: Computing & Information Science, Queen's University at Kingston
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 12:41:17 GMT

Well, well, well. What do you know? The Expos waltzed into Shea stadium for
the Mets first home series of the year, and swept 'em, scoring something
like 20 runs over the 3 games, while allowing 4!!!

Gooden, Cone, and Saberhagen get tagged with the losses. Martinez,
Hill, and Haney get the wins. So, at the end of the first week of play,
Montreal sits atop the NL east. And where are the Mets?? Well.....

Simon

-- 
Simon Marwood					
DSC Chair
Computing and Information Science Department
Queen's University
From: rjh@andante.att.com (Robert Holt)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Trivia: What to the numbers mean...?
Date: 11 Apr 92 20:17:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: andante.1992Apr11.201712.28809
Organization: AT&t bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ

In article <92099.185021GRM100@psuvm.psu.edu> GRM100@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>Here's a bit of trivia from our college paper...
>
>Give the significance of the number and the player
>who holds the record.
>
>7) 511

Eddie Collins' career record for sacrifice hits!!

-- 
+--------------------------------+
|  Bob Holt                      |
|  rjh@allegra.research.att.com  |
+--------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: SASCHO <SASCHO@mvs.sas.com>
Subject: Re: Unbearable Braves Promotion
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 11:59:00 GMT
X-Bytes: 1908

>Did anyone catch the Braves special(hosted by Goodman) on TBS. That's
>what i hate about a national cable channel(yeah I know it's based in
>ATlanta and is a UHF channel there, and Turner owns the Braves, but I
>ams till going to consider it a national cable channel) which owns a
>baseball team. Too bad, KDKA in PIttsbuirgh is not a superstation.
>
>It was such shameless promotion. Even if I wasn't a Pirates fan, I would
>have found the special ridiculous. It had such corny background music.
>We were supposed to believe everytoner in America were moved to tears
>while watching the Braves make it to the finals. They were just plain
>lucky to meet a team notorious for having its three main batting stars
>who like to choke.
>
>The way they dramatised everything was so funny that I thought I was
>watching a spoof of their tribute.
>
>I knew something like this would happen. I hope the Reds make it to the
>playoffs, instead of the Braves. For some reason, the Pirates loss to
>their traditional 70s rival(REDS) in 1990 was much easier to take than
>their 1991 loss to the Braves.
>
 
I enjoyed, cuz it gave some insight into what the players were thinking
at certain key moments. I like that side of baseball. Going from last
to first is emotional to baseball fans, especially for a young team.
Everyone loves the underdog.
 
Also, if a team who has three guys who choke, doesn't that make the team
that doesn't choke better? Isn't mental ability a factor in overall
talent? I think luck had something to do with it, but no team has
ever won a pennant without a little luck. You can't survive without
luck over 162+ games.
 
That said, the theme music was a little cheesy at times. I think they
tried to create a Field of Dreams type atmosphere.
 
I'm getting argumentative in my old age, aren't I?
 
 
Chuck Oertli
SAS INSTITUTE INC.
AUSTIN, TX                                  SASCHO@MVS.SAS.COM
From: X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson v Nolan Ryan -- Stat-head call to arms!
Date: 16 Apr 92 20:37:24 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University

In article <12266@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>
    zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Avenue Of Shattered
    Skulls Huckabay) writes:
 
>
>Sorry, Kevin, but the issue of race, like it or not, is DEFINITELY an
>issue when it comes to Ryan vs. Henderson.
 
 
   Only to those that could see race as an issue in a tomato.
 
>Nolan Ryan is a white hero.  A true TWG.  He's humble, he's friendly
>and skillful with the media, and his exploits have been portrayed,
>over the past five years or so, in an extremely favorable light.
>Why?
 
   Because he IS humble, friendly and skillful with the media.
 
>
>Rickey is portrayed as a malingerer, a whiner, and cocky.
>Why?
 
    Because he IS a malingerer, a whiner, and cocky.
 
>Part of the
>reason for this is his background is different than Ryan's.
 
A person's past can never be used as an excuse to justify their
present.  That is the age old cry of the stupid, lazy, and the
unlucky of all colors.
 
      ----------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |  "Success is the realization of your
x005cb@tamvm1.tamu.edu  |       worthwhile dreams" ---  Dexter Yager
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |  "A goal is a dream being acted upon"
(409) 845-8454 (work)   |                          ---  Don Wilson
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: A few comments about the Indians so far
From: guilford@otago.ac.nz
Date: 14 Apr 92 10:34:27 +1300
 <1992Apr12.051839.20921@panix.com> <1992Apr13.110504.2528@otago.ac.nz> <1992Apr13.052332.12671@panix.com>
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <1992Apr13.052332.12671@panix.com>, spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:

> In <1992Apr13.110504.2528@otago.ac.nz> guilford@otago.ac.nz writes:

>>In article <1992Apr12.051839.20921@panix.com>, spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:

>>> days, which is why I was very surprised that the Twins traded him.  He's
>>> a MUCH better hitter than Reggie Jefferson.  He's 26, so we're not talking

>>Jefferson is three years younger.  Jefferson has been hurt the last
>>two years.  Jefferson had a very good year in 1989 in Chattanooga, a
>>pitcher's park.  I don't see any possible basis for this "MUCH" conclusion.

> Chattanooga is a slight pitchers' park in a hitters' league.  His MLE for 1989,
> his only real full season recently, is .257/.303/.387.  Certainly good numbers
> for a 21 year old, but not quite eye popping stuff when you consider the fact 
> that he's a first baseman.

A quibble: he didn't turn 21 until after the season.  Also, I thought
Chattanooga was more of a pitcher's park.  Jefferson's `89 compares
pretty favorably with Alvin Davis's `83....

> STATS projections for the two aren't that close.  Sorrento projects to a .278/
> .366/.493; Jefferson projects to a .267/.314/.381.  These projections are
> totally unfair to Jefferson, of course - Sorrento is projected in the Metrodome
> while Jefferson is projected in last year's Municipal.

My confidence in STATS ability to project a player with Jefferson's
(limited) record is not very high.  

> But based on Jefferson's career so far, I don't think my expected 75 point OPS
> difference for this year is unfair at all.

It may not be unfair, but it's ludicrous.  It's a number out of thin air.
The Sorrento prediction is tough enough, but at least he's a mature player
who's been playing full time.  The Jefferson prediction has to be really
tough.  Then to compare them.  Maybe 75 points is a good "best guess,"
maybe it isn't, but then maybe the likelihood that it (or anything else)
is a "good guess" is not that high.

Bill Guilford