From: CL234106@ulkyvx.louisville.edu (Y. CAO)
Subject: Re: Need Input
Distribution: local
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 10:58:34 GMT
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In <1992Apr5.215851.4150@news.nd.edu> smaurer@artin.helios.nd.edu writes:

> Hi I am writing a paper on the argument in rec.org.mensa and was wondering
> Is it irrational to believe in god?
Irrational is simply another words for not logical. Even the most devout of
Christians (or whatever) will tell you that Faith is not logical. It is not
intended to be. Faith in God/gods requires a suspension of logic, and a
willingness to look beyond what seems to be here. 

> Is it unproductive?

Whether faith is productive or not depends on if you look at it from the point
of veiw of an individual, or society as a whole. 
	From an individual point of veiw, it varies. Some people gain great 
things from their faith, and it does help them become better caring people. 
Churches <as much as I hate to admit it> are largely responsible for much 
charitable work that has been done in the past. But, do  we need to continue 
to have "faith" in order to do good.  
SInce some individuals however, have been quite unproductive with their
fatih. It causes them to close their minds, to place themselves above others,
and  feel they have a right/need to make others agree with them it seems that
one must argue each matter of faith being productive or not differently for
each person.
There are two ways of looking fglobally. One is to see if the majority of
individauls have gained or lost from their fatih. Looking at the amount of
wars, judgement, and anger apparent in things like Middle East wars, and Moral
Majority rules, I would say the majority of those with faith have gained little
, and lost a lot of growth. I think they have also slowed society as a whole we
continually have our progress slowed in the "name of god" with methods of
censorship and bigotry. 
The other global method is simply to look at the benefits and disadvantadges
caused by living in a society filled with "religous people". As already pointed
out, bombings, wars, and excuses for anger and hatred are the negatives.
Included in these negatives are also slowing down of science by churches who
control much money, and are afraid of having their ideas disproven. We also
have a great deal of money wasted on televangilist and the like. 
But the advantadge is that much of the "christian money" does go to valid and
improtant charitable sources. The key, it would seem, lies in continuing a
feeling of charity, a networking of funds to the underpriveliged, without a
forcing of belief systems, or a propogating, backwards, philosophy.


> If it is both unproductive and irrational (as some atheists claim) then is
> it always unproductive to do illogical things?
I have already stated it is not always unproductive to do irrational things. To  
CONTINUE to do the same irational things, and not to bow to reason when faced
with it is counterproductive. In Other words, believing in Greek Gods was fine
3000 years ago, but when faced with the evidence that Olympus was just a
mountain, those who continued to insist the Gods were sitting on it somewhere,
are counterproductive. I'll avoid the obvious modern correlaries.


> What about the human purpose of god? The idea that if he didn't exist we would
> have invented him?
Indeed. God did at one point have a purpose. He united a failing goverment. He
gave many people reasons for charity. And he gave a troubled culture hope in
believing thay were the chosen people. Read "The Power OF Myth" by Joseph
Campbell. In it, he looks at myth from various veiwpoints, and shows how
unrelated cultures keep rebuiding hte same ideas in their mythologies over and
over. Cultures with no cross references at all still seem to have the same
stories, with different names. Of particular notice to me were some Native
American stories, and some Ancient Mayan ones that were almost exactly the
same. Obviously there is a need for us to create God/gods to explain certain
things. It is human nature. 

> Compare your beliefs to traditional religion.
traditional religion says to have faith in something I can not feel hear or
touch. Traditional relgiion teaches me to be good becasue of a reward, and
avoid bad because of a punishment. It also defines good and bad for me, beyond
that whcih causes harm. I define bad as that whcih causes harm to others <or
sometimes, to myself> Then I choose to do either. Hopefully, there are others
like me who usually choose to do good, simply because it is. I realize this is
a hard maturity level to acheive, and is the cheif benifit religion offers to
an immature and struggling culture. My belief is that people can do good if
they want to. I also believe I don't know the answers and that no EVIDENCE has
been shown. I believe you need evidence to truly believ in something. A
religious person does not need that evidence. that is the cheif differnece.

> Do you thing as intelligence increases belief in god is less prevelant?

Intelligence increases? I don't know. I think as KNOWLEDGE increases in
society, we learn how faulty the mythology is. Perhaps it will be replaced <as
Joseph Campbell suggests> with a new mythology that does not have as many
holes. Perhaps not. I don't think that the Christian mythology will hold up to
it's holes to much longer. We are just learning to much about our world. We
don't need stories to expliain the purpose of a rainbow, or why the sun rises.
we know those answers. So the mythology is outdated. And since knowledge
increases exponentially, so will doubt. I admit though that I see just as many
stupid things beign done in the world. I dont think intelligence is increasing
anywehre. Hopefully, peole will be more enlightened, and think more, when they
have more reasons to question. Questioning does lead to answers if one keeps
questioning enough, without accepting an answer that doesn't make sense to
them simply becasue it is easy.

> Any other thoughts or observations would be appreciated.
> Sean.
> Wait now I have more..
> In the face of non evidence is it more logical or productive to believe or
> disbelieve (in reference to anything)
It is more productive to try and find better answers. Sometimes belief is
neccessary in order to question and move on. BUt BLIND FAITH, and closed minds
is never productive. Alloing that this MAY be true, and goind on is very
productive. Syaing something, without evidence, must be true, and living life
completely for it, is extremembly counterproductive, for you may be living your
whole life for an incorrect assumption. 



> Do you accept the possiblity of 'aliens' that are further developed (read: highe
> r
> ) beings than us? What evidence is there against God?
The possibilty of aliens is much more general than the possiblilitiy of a
christian god. There is also more evidence to support it. I accep the
possibility, but do not veiw it as fact, and it does not affect my judgement of
others, my lifestyle, or my morality. 
To argue the evidence against a biblical christian god would take a post ten
times the size of what I have written already. I know, becuase I have done it.
To argue against any higher form of spiritual conciesness is impossible.
 
> What is the purpose then if there is no God?
Good question. Someday we may know. WE dont. The purpose is to live life. WHat
is the purpose in enjoying oneself when one can. Our purpose is to live life to
it's fullest. to leave knowing we tried our damndest. Some of us don't really
need more., It would be easier sometimes to be able to believe in a higher
purpose, but not at the expense of our intellectual insight.

                                                                      
> Obscenely ridiculous questions.
> Basisically any response is fine just like tell me what you think if you could
> thanks.
> I am trying to get a feel for an atheists logic.
> 
> Sorry this whole thing is so jumbled, I can't paste worth a damn.
> I would also like to hear from anyone who is a 'believer' and reads this group
> Also is there any such group for agnostics?
> thanx :)
> 
> --
> Sean Maurer smaurer@artin.helios.nd.edu


Hope all that was of some use to you. I am sure you'll get tons of responses.

Tom Stevens <borrowing a freinds account>