HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kosmatoo@JSP.UMontreal.CA (Kosmatos Odisseas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Falcon030, resolutions, TRUE color, and DSP
Summary: Yeah Yeah Yeah
Date: 22 Dec 92 12:50:05 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal

In article <72179@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes:
>Odisseas Kosmatos lists lots of "reasons" why PCs are the
>Scum of the Earth..
> 
>Sure.. but can your Falcon do *anything*...?
> 
>Without software, you've got a high-tech (and expensive)
>paperweight..
> 
>Meanwhile, that poor, misguided PC owner is happily computing
>using his lousy, clunky, "everyone knows" has problems PC to
>do exactly what he wants it to do.
> 
>He had to pay $89 more to get 11 voice FM synthesis music, with
>VOC sampled voice support.. so what..?  It works.. NOW..
> 
>He had to pay $19 more to get a mouse..  so what..?  It works..
>NOW...

I understand your narrow-minded point of view, and cannot flat out say
it is a load of rubbish, but let's not get off the original topic, which
was that the Falcon has nothing going for it. I've shown at least twice
my reasons for why I think so, and we've seen your opposite reasoning too.

The original point was that the $799 PC was not much of a performer,
and that you would have to spend more money to get it to do
anything, whenever the need arose.

>He's got an IDE drive.. so what?  That's what the Falcon has too!
> 
>The point that seems to be universally missed here is that if
>someone decides that they want to use a computer *NOW*, instead
>of waiting for the ever present Atari "RSN", they CAN do it..
> 
>If someone decides they want to get some actual work done NOW
>instead of waiting continually for the NEXT broken promise,
>why shouldn't they..?
> 
>Why wait forever for the "ultimate" pie in the sky dream, when
>you can get a REAL computer NOW..?
>
>(OK, maybe some of us can afford to wait forever for Atari to get
>their act together.. maybe someday they'll actually come up with
>a killer machine that *everybody* just HAS to HAVE...  but until
>then, why spite yourself just to make Atari feel good...????)
> 
>BobR


-- 
___                                ___               ,   ^             ,
=*=        Odisseas Kosmatos       =*=  "Cul bien vide, tete plein d'idees."
=*=    kosmatoo@jsp.umontreal.ca   =*=
=*= shammer@mafalda.math.mcgill.ca =*=
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
From: volker@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de ( Volker A. Brandt )
Subject: Re: the "real" Gemulator 2.0 featu
Organization: Applied Math, University of Bonn, Germany
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 09:35:19 GMT

In article <A54526@MS.maus.de> Julian_Reschke@ms.maus.de (Julian Reschke) writes:
>Darek Mihocka (darekm@microsoft.com) wrote:
>>... in the case of
>>ST Magazin, got a total idiot to do the review which ended up being full of
>>incorrect statements ...
>
>Speaking as one (other) freelance author for 'ST Magazin'

Well, Julian, in my personal biased one-sided opinion, YOU are the only one
of ST-Magazin's authors who is NOT a complete idiot.  (Well, maybe Laurenz
Pruessner on one of his better days :-)

The Jan 93 issue is so bad that I'm thinking of cancelling my subscription.

-- Volker
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitnet:   UNM409@DBNRHRZ1                              Volker A. Brandt
UUCP:     ...!unido!DBNRHRZ1.bitnet!unm409             Angewandte Mathematik
Internet: volker@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de                (Bonn, Germany)
From: aa399@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Len Stys)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Falcon030 -- Truth not Fiction
Date: 24 Dec 1992 03:07:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa399@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Len Stys)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, abaddon@uk.ac.liverpool.scm.suprenum (Kevin o donovan) says:

>>>>>> On 22 Dec 92 01:08:04 GMT, aa399@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Len Stys) said:
>> NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu
>
>> I'm finding out that many of you THINK you know the answer and reply
>> as you KNOW for SURE, but you really don't know what you are talking about.
>
>A nice strong start, unfortunately all the questions you asked were rather 
>subjective, so the above doesn't really apply 8-)
>
>Kev
>


Though, there were still SOME questions that weren't, right?

This makes YOUR message a waste of my time, and BOTH our messages
a waste of other people's time.

Len

--
From: michael.smith@f842.n800.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (michael smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Oxyd (was Re: Good Bye Atari (was Re: Good Bye Double Click))
Organization: Fidonet. Gate admin is fido@socs.uts.edu.au
Date: 16 Dec 92 23:59:06 GMT

Original to: marco@sys6626.bison.mb.ca
In a message of <09 Dec 92 22:37:06>, marco@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (3:713/602)
writes:

 >> It is DM 50. I tried to use Oxyd to see if I should obtain the book. I
 >> am not able to play any level however. I have heard that the first 10
 >> levels should be playable without the "dongle", but can't find out how.
 >> Does anybody know?
 m> 
 m> OXYD is great! It's so popular on our local BBS that we might ask the
 m> authors to give us a cut on a bulk purchase of books. How far have you
 m> progressed in the game?

What a stupid question??!! He clearly states what is continually repeated
here again and again, without ever a clear answer... He cant!

The OXYD archives on a.a are broken - Oxyd itself, whilst it "works"
contains _NO_ documentation on how to play, or where to get the book from,
or even that you need a book.  I had it online, and had about 20 downloads
of it -and as many messages from people saying "how do I play", and "why is
it impossible to play?".

Ditto with OXYD2.

Is is possible to play either without a manual? How? Where does one get the
manual? How much (I think that is in the game somewhere...) is it?

 m> *   John Perry, Winnipeg, Manitoba    |       GEnie: J.PERRY13      *

\`miff`                                                       /|\

--- ScanMail 0.68 X0501
 * Origin: That Which Is Not, ST in SA. 61-8-232-5722 (3:800/842)
From: Dave_Ninjajr_Flory@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: A letter to Dave Baggett, etc.
Date: Sun,  3 Jan 93 14:40:38 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: na
  <1992Dec28.194241.1001@news2.cis.umn.edu>
  <1hq32sINNsuv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <1htddqINN69m@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>

The reason I get tired of reading the messages from Bob and Dave is that
they keep saying the same things over and over and over. I was a reader of
Bob when he was on GEnie, and I was around when he left too. My problem
with a lot of the folks' messages here is that they don't seem to be able
to differentiate between the compter and the people who run the company.
I have two Atari's, a Stacy 4/40 and a 12meg SSTed Mega. They both work
just fine and do everything I want to do. I have about 250 disks of softwar
and its cheaper and does more, easier, in my opinion than the stuff I have 
had to use at work on the IBM and the Mac. I don't have to love the 
management of Atari to enjoy using the computers their company built.
I used to enjoy the technical information I got here on the net, but now
it seems most of the bandwidth is being wasted on company bashing and
nowbody is talking about the the machines. Frankly I don't care if Atari
is full of (censored) people as long as I can keep my machines working.
If they die and atari is gone, I'll buy a machine which works as close
to the way my Ataris did as possible. i.e. a built in GUI, OS in ROM,
good monochrome display, reasonable speed, price, and _simple_ to set up.
Don't anyone try to tell me its a simple thing to set up an configure a
clone from scratch. I've had to help too many people who weren't beginners
do it. If the machine doesn't come with windows installed already it can
be a nightmare for a beginner.
From: craig@yonder.equinox.gen.nz (Craig Shore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Organization: Equinox Networks (Public access), Node: Yonder
Subject: Re: *.Z compression
Reply-To: craig@yonder.equinox.gen.nz
X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.04 Rev. Sep  5 1992
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 01:20:32 +1200

In <rchan.2yl7@terapin.com>, Ronald Chan writes:
>Does anyone know if there is a utility that will extract *.Z compressed files
>on the ST?  I see a  few of them on umich archives.  I am a total novice about
>the Internet, so bear with me while I ask dumb questions okay?

It means it's been compressed with the program "compress".
 Usually programs that have been compressed with "compress" have been done
 with "tar" first.
Tar put several files into one file, as compress can only compress the one
 file, it doesn't group a few files into one archive.
Tar does no compression, hence then putting the files through compress.

The above answer is based on my personal experience only, and may be wrong.

If you can't find compress on it's own, then you'll find it in
 one of the uucp archives (either hermes or mercury (rodneys uucp modules))

 Craig.


-- 
* Craig Shore.  Phone +64 3 3852501                    * 
*  Email: from in NZ - craig@yonder.equinox.gen.nz     *
*  from rest of world - shore_c@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz     *
* PLEASE DON'T mail to yonder from outside NZ. Thanks! *
From: oddjob@oz.plymouth.edu (Andrew C. Stoffel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Has someone compiled this ?? - GNU Oleo spreadsheet ?
Date: 3 Jan 93 20:09:09 GMT
Reply-To: oddjob@oz.plymouth.edu (Andrew C. Stoffel)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.

There is a spreadsheet availble from the GNU folks called Oleo....

Has anyone attempted to compile it for MiNT ? It'd be awful nice to be
able to use it in a window while doing other things :-).

(I'd try myself but don't have the time to get gcc installed on my
Mega STe - Besides not being exactly proficient with C at more than a
basic level (No pun intended)....)

-- 
|E-mail  --> un*x: oddjob@oz.plymouth.edu |vms: andys@psc.plymouth.edu |
|Disclaimer > Any "end-user" software that provides NO avenue for user |
|of the week> modification or programmability is NOT user friendly.    |
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
From: akisujar@nuscc.nus.sg (SUTHIPUN SUJARITTANONTA (DR))
Subject: Driver of the 640MB Optical Drive
Organization: National University of Singapore
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 05:50:48 GMT

Hello from Singapore,

I have tried connecting a Sony 640MB Optical drive to the Atari TT via
SCSI port as well as to the Mega4 via DMA/SCSI adapter last night. 

I cannot get  both computers to recognise the drive with ADHI program,
obviously I will need a proper driver to format the Optical Cartridge
as well.for . 

Is there a Formatter/driver programs available anywhere? Either
commercial or shareware is fine for me?  

Would the software supplies with the new ICD LINK hard disk adapter
support 640MB (5-1/4") Optical drive? I would not mind buying a LINK if it
works.

Another possible cause may be that the Optical drive that I have is set
with Parity enable. (I know from my pass experiences with connecting
Syquest and other hard disk to Atari that I have to disable Parity of
the hard disk to get it to work) My next (and last) question is which
jumpers on the SONY optical drive is for Parity setting.

Any suggestion would be much appreciative,

Suthipuntha, School of Architecture, National University of Singapore
             AKISUJAR@NUSVM.BITNET
From: dmb@case.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: A letter to Dave Baggett
Date: 29 Dec 1992 08:17:40 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: case.ai.mit.edu

In article <1992Dec28.194241.1001@news2.cis.umn.edu> davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu writes:
>Hi Dave.  You are, of course, right.  Atari stinks.  Those people who have
>purchased an ST and who have hopes about the Falcon are lunatics.  There
>will never be a release of Game Workbench for the Atari computer.  The
>Intel-clone market is the only sane market for a programmer.

Well at least you're beginning to sound reasonable.

>One of the converted.

Now that wasn't so bad, was it?

Dave Baggett
--
dmb@ai.mit.edu           MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory                  
ADVENTIONS: interactive fiction (text adventures) for the 90's!
dmb@ai.mit.edu *** Compu$erve: 76440,2671 *** GEnie: ADVENTIONS
From: cwa@oasis.icl.co.uk (Chris Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Help me with Carrier Command!
Date: 23 Dec 92 13:12:56 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

I found the best way was to hit the large cone where all the planes come from,
use Manta's to take out any airborne planes, then use a Walrus with a virus
bomb to go to the command centre and virus it.

The island becomes yours, and you can maybe save some of the old defences rather
than having to rebuild from scratch.

One problem I had though was once I found the enemy carrier and saved
immediately. When I tried several times to attack it, I did about one pass
then when I turned round to hit him again he had gone. Puzzled, I reloaded,
did the same pass, then switched to reverse view, and after a couple of seconds
the enemy carrier just VANISHED! didn't move, just bliped out, and I certainly
didn't kill him. (I had only fired about 4 ASSASINs at it)

     .-----------------------------.----------------------------------.
     |   .  .     ____    _   _    | WARNING: This Superman suit does |
     |  /| /| .-.    /   |_| |_>   | not enable the wearer to fly.    |
     | / |/ | |     /___ | | |     `----------------------------------|
     |      aka Chris Adams            cwa@getafix.oasis.icl.co.uk    |
     `----------------------------------------------------------------'
From: alien@clinet.fi (Risto Juvonen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Falcon030, resolutions, TRUE color, and DSP
Date: 21 Dec 1992 20:28:49 +0200
Organization: Clinet, Espoo, Finland.
NNTP-Posting-Host: clinet.fi

aa399@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Len Stys) writes:
: By the time they get the productions flowing, you bet they will need
: that graphics chip!
: 
: Atari is already BEHIND in technology with the Falcon030.  The only thing
: that the Falcon has over ANY other system is the DSP chip.
: 
 Just asking: why do you even look for falcon, if you really need
64-bit graphics? If you're prof., go with Silicon and live Falcon
alone. If not, it really doesn't matter is there 16 or 64 bit
graphics... 

       _/_/_/_/    _/        _/   _/_/_/_/     _/      _/
      _/    _/    _/        _/   _/           _/_/    _/
     _/_/_/_/    _/        _/   _/_/_/       _/  _/  _/
    _/    _/    _/        _/   _/           _/    _/_/
   _/    _/    _/_/_/_/  _/   _/_/_/_/     _/      _/
                               VISUAL ART PRODUCTION

Risto Juvonen               Internet: alien@clinet.fi
Merisotilaantori 3 c 26     Fidonet:  @SMACK! (2:220/110.0)
00160 Helsinki, Finland     tel.358-(9)0-654804
------------------- Generation X --------------------------




Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
From: davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu
Subject: Re: I am NOT making this up, OK?  (was Re: Closed ... <ho hum>)
Reply-To: davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu
Organization: Health Computer Sciences, U of MN, Mpls
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:46:23 GMT

In article <1h00msINNaou@life.ai.mit.edu>, dmb@case.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett) writes:
>And, as you answered for yourself, it's because we were too stupid to
>make sure the right people would be in the meeting.  Our fault.
>Right?

Well, in one sense, that is as good an answer as any.  The $3,000 you estimated
it cost you is not small money for a software development firm.  Unless you
were VERY clear on who you were going to speak with and what you could expect
to happen as a result of the meeting, there was little justification for
spending that much to meet Atari's wishes.

By the by, you failed to mention in your first posting that Atari asked YOU to
come out .. just what was the objective of this 'meeting'?  Atari hasn't
promoted any third-party software in four years or so.  They haven't published
anything under the Atari label since about that time either.  All of the
software which they've been rumored as having purchased has never left
Sunnyvale again.  Given this basic understanding of Atari Corporation, why did
you decide to go in the first place?

-- David Paschall-Zimbel
From: Achim_Wilhelm@m4.maus.de (Achim Wilhelm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Falcon: Nothing yet...
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:48:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: M4.A6464
Organization: MausNet (Mitglied im IN e.V.)
X-Gateway: MausGate/News 1.14D/hb

B>You've actually seen Falcons for sale to the general public..?  Not just
B>units for developers..?
B>
B>Has anyone actually purchased one of these..?

Yes, I bought one.

regards, Jimmy

+-------------------+-------------------------------------------+
|         |||       | Name       : Achim 'Jimmy' Wilhelm        |
|         |||       | German BTX : 089316294900-0001            |
|         |||       | FidoNet    : Achim Wilhelm on 2:246/13.42 |
|         |||       | eMail      : Achim_Wilhelm@m4.maus.de     |
|        / | \      | MausNet    : Achim Wilhelm @ M4           |
|       /  |  \     | Telephone  : +49 89 3162949               |
|      /   |   \    | Please send me no UU coded files and no   |
|        ATARI      | mail larger than 16 kBytes                |
+-------------------+-------------------------------------------+
From: michael.smith@f842.n800.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (michael smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: TT and llamatron - still no luck
Organization: Fidonet. Gate admin is fido@socs.uts.edu.au
Date: 15 Dec 92 08:20:46 GMT

Original to: paul@jupiter.ame.arizona.edu
In a message of <04 Dec 92 20:03:28>, paul@jupiter.ame.arizona.edu
(3:713/602) writes:

 >> You should get a low-rez screen, with no \auto stuff & no HD.  Turn off
 >> the cache, the rest doesn't matter. Then run Llamatron from floppy.
 p> 
 >> Works for me. (3.05)
 p> 
 p> 
 p> I tried it off a floppy, but after it loads I get a "TOS error #35"
 p> message.....

Well there's your problem then isn't it?!

Your copy of Llamatron is corrupted - that's what #35 means.

 p> -Paul Harris                       @ @

\`miff`                                                       /|\

--- ScanMail 0.68 X0501
 * Origin: That Which Is Not, ST in SA. 61-8-232-5722 (3:800/842)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
From: apelled@cix.compulink.co.uk (Adam Pelled)
Subject: Re: GIF convertors
Reply-To: apelled@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 01:19:00 +0000


In article <1hal4hINNsjh@golem.wcc.govt.nz>, wells_s@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (steve wells) writes:
>>Does anyone know of a program to convert GIF files to ST formats
>>(Neo or Degas preferably) - I know that information will be lost,
>>but I want to be able to load stuff up quickly, and as long as
>>the picture looks vaguely OK it doesn't matter.
>
>Fast-GIF is, (as it says), very fast, and does a pretty good job of
>converting any GIF picture into 320*200*16!  (And saving it in
>Degas PI1 format if you want.)  It doesn't handle JPEG, or this 89a
>format. (The new one), but it works fine with 90% of GIF's!
>(1meg at least recommended, as with all GIF programs, those things can
>use a lot of RAM!)
>
>Fast-GIF is on atari.archive.umich.edu in the graphics section somewhere
>(or was).... it should be available locally as well. (just about anywhere)

    Also it is perfectly acceptable to change the gif signature to 87a. The
GIF spec allows this, just some of the 89a features will get skipped. That is
of course if it was implemented correctly.
    In fact a pedant might argue that GIF is the signature not GIFxxa. A lot
of viewers say 'not a gif file' when in fact they mean 'not a fully supported
gif file' :-)

    Adam.
From: ggranger@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Greg Granger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Demo-makers
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 23:11:46 MST
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #3, Edmonton, AB, Canada

mppi76@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.de (Harald Schoenfeld) writes:

- ggranger@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Greg Granger) writes:
- 
- >Are there any Demo-maker programs for the ST?  I know that a few exist 
- >for the Amiga (just by reading thru COMP.SYS.AMIGA.DEMOS), but I don't 
- >own an Amiga.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.
- 
- If you mean a program to demonstrate a own program automatically
- (automatic mouse-move and so on), then there is ATARI's DEMONSTRATOR.
- It's included into the developers tools. If you aren't one, write
- to ATARI.
- -- 
- Harald Schoenfeld (hs@cnve.rrze.uni-erlangen.dbp.de)
- 

No, what I meant was something to create graphics and sound demos.

========================================================================
| Gregeory C. Granger  (GGranger@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca)  |  "All these  |
| 5516-190A Street  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6M-2L3   | memories will|
| Phone:      +1 (403) 483-2049  OR  +1 (403) 481-5110  |  be lost in  |
========================================================|  time, like  |
                                                        | tears in the |
                                                        |     rain."   |
                                                        |  - Roy Batty |
                                                        ================
From: wells_s@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (steve wells)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Command Line Interpreters
Date: 26 Dec 1992 06:06:42 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council (Public Access), Wgtn, Nz
Reply-To: wells_s@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: kosmos.wcc.govt.nz

Dunno about easy to use.  

> 2) Supports batch files
> 3) Supports environment variables
> 4) Has an efficient command set

Everyone seems to like this UNiX thing.  (Pointless really, buy a 
WIMPS machine, then immediately stuff UNix onto it, and use it as default
but....)

So, since you obviously don't want to use the Atari as such, why not buy
a UNix Machine??  (GEM programs don't usually work too well from CLI, 
unless GEM is booted first, and then they have been known to complain,
although, not much 8-)


Why does everyone out there seem to use UNiX on their ST, instead of getting
a REAL UNiX machine, which would drop compatibility problems (if any)
to pretty much NOTHING, and you wouldn't have to chance seeing the GEM
environment again.  Any GOOD reasons??  (Of course, you wouldn't be
able to run any ST-Programs on a UNiX machine, but if you run UNiX anyway,
you should be reasonably used to that.)

 =============================================================================
 | O O    If I told you how much I needed this,            |       |||       |
 |  o     I wouldn't have time to eat it.    Zaphod B.     |       ||| TARI  |
 | \_/    Steve Wells - Wellington, New Zealand.           |      / | \      |
 =========================WELLS_S@KOSMOS.WCC.GOVT.NZ==========================
From: molin@ptb.cl.msu.edu (Michael Olin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: A letter to Dave Baggett
Date: 1 Jan 93 14:35:23 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: ptb.cl.msu.edu

ron@zooid.guild.org (Secret Mud) writes:

>Oddly enough, $1500 CDN is *exactly* what a friend paid a couple weeks ago for
>his 486-33 system.  That's including tax, and also including an SVGA monitor,
>a 105 meg hard disk, 3.5 & 5 1/4" floppies, 4 meg of ram, 512k SVGA card,
>etc...

>The pricing for clones is getting rather scarey, isn't it?

The pricing of clones is the reason the industry is suffering such a
nasty shakeout.  (Didn't we do this in the mid 80s???)  Many clone
dealers are making such minuscule margins on their chosen machines
that they can't afford to pay the bills at the end of the month, even
if they've sold MANY machines.  (From my perspective, this is just
fine by me!  I hope the clone market dries up and goes the way of
the dinosaur.  Which is what it is, after all...)
--
  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
                               |||      Sing a happy tune and
    molin@ptb.cl.msu.edu       |||     happy dancers will join
    Canton, Michigan USA      / | \     your trip.  -T. Golas