HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rogers@isi.edu (Craig Milo Rogers)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.unicycles
Date: 17 Nov 92 23:06:38 GMT
Reply-To: rogers@blips.isi.edu (Craig Milo Rogers)
Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute


	Hey, this is a great idea!  I, too, think that "rec.unicycles"
would be farrrrr more acceptable than "rec.bicyles.unicycles".  I note
that "rec.bicycles.*" is under the plural "bicycles" at my site.

	Since the PURPOSE section of the proposal included the
IUF, may we also have a line for the USA?

		PURPOSE
		...
		    * The International Unicycling Federation
		    * The Unicycle Society of America

	And, of course, if the purely intra-USA or intra-IUF traffic
grows too large, maybe someday we'll have "rec.unicycles.usa" or
"rec.unicycles.iuf"!  :-)

	Question: are we likely to get any flack from francophones who
would prefer that the proposed group be named "rec.monocycles"?  :-)

					Craig Milo Rogers
					See you in Adrian, MI, in '93
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 15 Nov 92 15:25:04 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov14.012448.1443@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>That's exactly what I want. All it takes is for Dave Hayes to quit being an
>>obstructionist. 
>Be real. That's not stopping the flow of the new newsgroup. 

No, but it is fragmenting the group.

I think it's ironic as hell that the man who's the most vocal about saving the
group from us eeeeeeeeeeeeevil news.groupies is the one who's hurting the
group the most.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nadeau@bcarh1ab.bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RF(Informal)D: Standard RFD/CFV Format
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:02:49 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa

In article <1992Nov18.204818.713@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>In article <1ec6spINNn0q@talon.UCS.ORST.EDU> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John  
>Stanley) writes:
>> Folks, there will always be people who don't understand what they read
>> or what they are told. You can write flawless prose to describe the
>> voting process, and force people to read it, but there will still be
>> those who don't understand.
>
>So this is a good reason to not attempt to write better or more appropriate  
>prose?
>
>> If we allow the mere existance of those who don't understand the process
>> to keep us from having a process, we are fools. If we continually change
>> the process to make those who can't understand the current one happy, we
>> will wind up with NOBODY knowing what is going on.
>
>Who said anything about not having a process? How is clarifation and further  
>delineation of an existing path going to confuse anybody? The best way to  
>promote confusion is to have a process that is open to a lot of interpretation.

So do it - don't just talk about it and expect it to happen by magic.
(I know, you have said you will.)

You may well find, though, that writing "better or more appropriate
prose" and "clarification and further delineation of an existing path"
are easier said than done.

We have Usenet because enough people (mostly volunteers) have cared
enough to work at it, produce the necessary software and documentation
and links.  The massive size of the current Usenet, the number of groups
and voters, the very existence of readers who contentedly read news
without bothering to ask themselves where this news comes from and how
these groups are created and modified, is a measure of their success.

You are, of course, welcome to join in the process.  But do realize that
this is hard work, and that *your* prose will be examined as critically,
criticized as strongly, as you are doing for the existing documentation.
And, no doubt, some of that criticism will be justified, and problems
will come up that you hadn't foreseen.  So good luck if you go ahead; if
you don't, I will understand, but by doing also you will also
effectively recognize the current system as about as good as can
realistically be achieved.

The Rhealist - Rheal Nadeau - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
From: lance@lancea.actrix.gen.nz (Lance Andrewes)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.visual-basic
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 11:15:49 GMT

In article <Bxty6L.3zI@uunet.uu.net> doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) writes:
>Proposed newsgroup name: comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.visual-basic
>Status: unmoderated

I'm quite happy with things the way they are - with all the
languages lumped into one group.  The number of postings
in c.o.ms-win.p is small, and my interest covers both VB and
TPW.
__
 _______  Email: lance@lancea.actrix.gen.nz
////      ZL2AJH    Wellington, New Zealand

From: alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu (M. Saggaf)
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya (NO!)
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:33:59 GMT

>>>>> On Sat, 14 Nov 1992 23:08:41 GMT, Sridhar.Venkataraman@launchpad.unc.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman) said:

SV> [soc.religion.islam is off the Newsgroups header and news.groups is in.]
SV> [Followups to news.groups]

SV> Quoted text left intact for the benefit of news.groups folks.

SV> M. Saggaf <alsaggaf@Athena.MIT.EDU> writes:
>An article appeared here from a certain Mr. Mansour Jafri with a
>caltech address asking people to send their votes about the above
>group to him. That article is forged and has the WRONG VOTING ADDRESS.
>It should not have been posted or approved. It has been deemed wrong
>and invalid by the Usenet newgroups administrator. Please vote NO and
>send your NO vote to the address:
>
>	 rana@ucsu.colorado.edu
>
>with the sentence
>
>	I vote NO to soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya
>
[rest of my quoted article deleted]

>
>Wassalam,
>
>/M. Saggaf
> alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu
>============================================================
>
>[Moderator's Note: this situation is getting out of hand.
>Actually, it got out of hand long ago.  This is the last
>article that will be posted to soc.religion.islam on this
>topic -- Basalat Ali Raja]

SV> I had hoped not to get into this confusion but this posting expressing the
SV> open statement of "Vote NO" having been allowed in soc.religion.islam and
SV> the action of the soc.religion.islam moderator passing off the illegitimate
SV> CFV as a "straw vote" gives me an impression that there is going
SV> to be enough
SV> noise raised if the official CFV is allowed to stand whether it is going to
SV> a success or a failure of the proposal. 

SV> I would request for a recall of the official CFV and the reissuing
SV> of a proper
SV> CFV with a neutral votetaker.

Please refer to my other article in news.groups (Message ID:
<ALSAGGAF.92Nov15123854@alfredo.mit.edu>). Since posting the article
you quoted in s.r.i I contacted Mr. Jafri to get his version of the
story, and I must say that he does have a valid point. Refer to his
reply to me that I quoted (with his permission) in my other article. I
don't think there is anything wrong with allowing a post urging people
to vote no in s.r.i. After all, Mr. Rana's CFV did appear there as
well.

Right now I'm very angry, and I unless I get a satisfactory
explanation from David Lawrence, I must say that my anger is pointed
at him, since his action of allowing the CFV by Mr. Jafri prompted
this whole mess. I had hoped that that the CFV would be the end of
this thread, but alas my hopes were in vein.

--
/M. Saggaf
 alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 17 Nov 92 01:28:39 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <BxqwDz.86H@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>
>I must admit, I do have *no* way of knowing the feelings of those who don't
>post regularily.  Hey, there could be 100,000 readers of Fido Net AD&D
>who totally hate the game posts, but just can't work up the energ
>to express themselves :)

Considering the amount of effort that has been wasted by a number of
people against just one of you without making any headway, can you
really blame those 100,000 FidoNet readers that don't try?

		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Nobody has ever had a sexual fantasy about being tied
 to a bed and ravished by somebody dressed as a liberal."    -P.J. O'Rourke

Xref: sparky news.groups:22749 news.admin:8639
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
Subject: Re: BAD music group reorg --- no doughnut!
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:21:32 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: negligable

There is even less of a problem than that when a news admin can
alias the old name to the new name so that the user may never
know the name has "officially" been changed.


		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:41:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1ei1arINNg3t
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <1992Nov15.223126.16981@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>I have proposed changes to the Guidelines to avoid a recurrence of
>what I think were legitimate problems with this vote.
>
>In case these proposals were lost in the flamage, I restate them:
>
>1. Avoid bundling multiple unrelated votes onto a single ballot.  

The creation of a hierarchy of groups is bundling related groups, by
definition. If they were unrelated, they would not be going into the
same hierarchy.

>2. The ballot should name all affected newsgroups in the subject line.
>   Assuming (1) is enforced as above, the subject line should not be overlong.

This violates the "guidelines" you quoted earlier which demand that
articles have only 40 character subject lines. 

Call For Votes: renaming rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth

I didn't count it, but it sure looks like more than 40 characters. I
could have used a more explicit subject line, but that would have been
even longer.

>3. If (1) is not enforced as above, then post separate announcements
>   with Subject lines explicitly naming the affected groups to the affected groups.

Anyone who wishes to do so is already free to perform step 3. As another
poster stated, if there is interest in a vote, someone will post. If
not, then step 3 is a waste of bandwidth.
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:45:15 GMT

jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) writes:
>>>>This is exactly the kind of attitude I'm campaigning against.
>having completely avoided a rational explanation of that statement,
>my original observation still applies;

Rational by *your* definition? I don't think you can define it. 

>>That's a rather obvious assumption. When you know me personally, then
>>you can say that. 
>Right you are, Dave, it is rather obvious that you are campaiging to
>hear yourself talk.  Glad we could agree on something.

You don't know me personally. But I'll give you that you have a remarkable
capacity to agree with yourself. 

>The guidelines caused an unfair result in your perception?  That you
>have a perception problem is obvious, but to blame it on the guidelines!

Perceptions aren't the problem as much as the assumptions that fly about
to validate them. Like yours for instance.

>where is your consensus that something about this process was not fair?
>Where is it?  Says who else?  Show me.  *Prove* me wrong.

No.

>>But the fact of the matter is, they do fit the letter of the guidelines. 
>does not.

Does too.

>>Yup. That's as clear as the notion that "news.groups and ilk are elitist
>>and unfit to consider anything that they do not agree with". 
>I would venture to say that not since Alok has there been any point
>more unanimously agreed to around this so called elitist group than
>the opinion that your attitude is the one in need of adjustment.

When you have the authority, license, and capacity to make this judgement,
talk to me again. Otherwise...keep it to yourself.

>Do not suffer the company of fools  ||  Jan Isley ...!gatech!bagend!jan

I seem to be violating this parable in this case. What's even funnier is
that the person who wrote this is in clear violation of it. Go figure.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

The original purpose of cultivating restraint is so that eventually...
                                        one will not need to have restraint.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rafiq@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (RAFIQ ANWAR)
Subject: DAVID LAWRENCE: Reveil the truth: S.R.I.A (CFV)
Keywords: Call For Votes: S.R.I.A.
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:01:53 GMT



David, you should come and reviel the truth at this time.
There is enough mess in the net as to who is taking the
votes for soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya.

While the CFV by Mr. Jafry has been cancelled, but still
he insists on collecting votes. That is also endorsed by
the S.R.I. moderator Balasat Ali Raja.

I request that you please clear the doubts here!


Regards;
ANWAR RAFIQ
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Date: 16 Nov 92 00:04:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: metrosof.1992Nov16.000449.1327
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <H.ea.XemlKcz4uRo@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca> jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca  
(John Henders) writes:
> [..] If you're talking about the
> guidelines, as written, they did a fairly good job for me. As the only
> other poster supporting you with any volume in this thread obviously
> hasn't read them, it's hard to tell in his case.
> 
If you mean me, I have read them. Why is it "obvious" that I haven't? I  
have made several posts that relate specifically to the contents of the  
guidelines.

> It's funny then how well they have worked for those who have taken the
> time to read them. 
>
An unfounded assertion.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:47:31 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
>as provided for in the guidelines.  Those who cared to know how the net
>operates by the simple expedient of READING and felt they had a stake in
>it voted. 

And *again* I assert that it wasn't the fault of the unwillingly ignorant 
that they didn't vote.

>convince others that yours is the "one true way". It may not be but
>you'll never admit that. 

On the contrary. I will (and have) to those who are willing to discuss and
not bludgeon. Look at this thread carefully...people have gotten what they
have given to me. 

>    As long as you continue to insist that the vote be held
>    again you are damaging any chances of progress on the
>    guideline discussion.  You probably don't care but people
>    are laughing at you.  Your arguments are no longer being taken
>    seriously by the very people you NEED to have on your side. 

You're right in that I don't care. In fact, I *want* people to laugh at me.
(Humor is great therapy for seriousness) I don't need to have anyone on
my "Side"...if it's that kind of politics I'm sure that can be dealt with
at the grass roots level. If people here (who claim rationality) aren't
able to separate the two issues, then that's their problem...not mine. 

Now if news.groups hadn' t had any history of bludgeoning with "Either
drop your argument or we'll ignore yours", I'd probably have acceded to the
above long ago. However that is not the case.

>You had better start considering a compromise soon or as much as you
>may call it vote fraud there will be LOTS of spite votes against what
>you want. 

What a way to demonstrate net.rationality. 

And please refrain from calling yourself neutral. You aren't.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   A man appointed to be judge has been killed without a knife.
Xref: sparky news.groups:22617 rec.games.netrek:10030
From: horde@reed.edu (Mr. Heiji Horde)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: CFV: rec.games.netrek reorganization (was: Re: Catching up)
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:38:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov20.233851.16097
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Twisted Genius Rehabilitation Center, a Division of MHE

In article <62219@mimsy.umd.edu> leonard@mimsy.umd.edu (Leonard Dickens) writes:
>>I have been away from rec.netrek for months and it appears I have
>>missed server changes, RSA etc.  I went through the old messages
>>and I don't see a FAQ or server list etc.  I am awaiting a key
>>from mcp and but I don't know if those codes are UDP or things like
>This, in a nutshell, is my argument for a rec.games.netrek.announce.

When someone goes off the net for a while, they tend to ask such questions
  when they get back on. You're always going to have people asking such
  question, Whether or not you have the .announce group.
Part of the reason is expires. My site only has enough disk space to keep
  articles around for about 4 days. Now if someone goes away, say, for a week
  they are going to miss out and have to ask "what did I miss?". Come on...
  there isn't any real way to avoid questions like this from someone
  who is away. [Obviously you've never read the rec.arts.startrek.* mess where
  people are *ALWAYS* asking what has happened. Even with the .info group.]
IMHO, if you're going to have a moderated group for FAQs, find a moderator
  who knows how to use the Expire header.

	-Heiji

-- 
==============================================================================
  Mr. Heiji Horde   (Unix Systems Programmer, Reed College)   horde@reed.edu
     All insane acts are done in affiliation with Madd Hacker Enterprises
               Disclaimer: In life, there are no Guarantees.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: sridhar@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman)
Subject: Re: Voting on the Ahmadiyya Newgroup
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:43:20 GMT

alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu (M. Saggaf)
writes on news.groups:

)Since the sequence of events Mr. Jafri has cited seems to be
)corroborated by the accounts of Mr. Smith and others, I'm not sure Mr.
)Jafri is the villain anymore. I think the blame lies on David Lawrence
)for authorizing an official CFV that maybe should not have been
)authorized and then canceling it and replacing it with another
)official CFV, creating two CFVs and leading to the problem that people
)no longer know where to send their votes. I myself have sent my vote
)to Mr. Rana.  However, I'm not sure now that was the correct thing to
)do.

What is the role of the soc.religion.islam moderator, Basalat Ali Raja
in all this? He was the person who forwarded the CFV to Dave Lawrence
in the first place and he was fully aware of what was going on. Sigh.
And it is funny that you chose to blame Dave Lawrence for all this.
Has the situation gone so bad that a moderator can't trust another?

Do the other s.r.i. moderators approve of the illegitimate CFV that
went through s.r.i? illegitimate = Jafri's. 

)/M. Saggaf
) alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu

Sridhar.
--
Sridhar Venkataraman			sridhar@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
From: jodar@aludra.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVID LAWRENCE: Reveil the truth: S.R.I.A (CFV)
Date: 19 Nov 1992 23:57:23 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu
Summary: What is this...?
Keywords: More Allegations?

In article <rafiq.722237466@rintintin.Colorado.EDU> rafiq@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (RAFIQ ANWAR) writes:

>Mr. Saggaf, this is the endorsment I was refering to:
>
>[Note from Balasat Ali Raja: The following CFV was posted
> by David Lawrence and then cancelled by him.  I authorized
> it to appear in soc.religion.islam and also suggested it 
> in s.c.bangladesh and s.c.indian.  I feel that the vote
> should go on and am hence reposting it; it is possible
> that this may only be a straw vote as some people seem to
> feel that it should not appear in this format. It is
> up to everyone to vote as they feel appropriate]
>		{..CFV deleted..}
>
>When it was cancelled by Mr. Lawrence, the moderator of
>news.announce.newgroups, then what authority did Mr. Raja
>have to suggest that the voting should go on?? 

Answer:  None.

I wonder if that's what he meant about it possibly being 'only' a
'straw vote'....

>As a 
>moderator of Soc.religion.islam, it was a very shameful
>act on his behalf, and he clearly wanted to confuse the
>situation! 

Really?  Well he certainly botched the job by explaining it in
detail in the note you included above....

>I wonder what his intentions were?

What do you mean?  You just got done saying 'he clearly wanted to
confuse the situation!'  (Exclaimation point yours.)  If you are
not absolutely certain of this, why did you denounce him as 
'shameful'?  Did you even bother to question Brother Raja before
smearing his name in a public forum?

>Regards;

Not in this posting....

>ANWAR RAFIQ

-AQ

Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh