From: keb3_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Karin E. Baker)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: SIMPLE ANSWER
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:36:22 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <kefK9b600Uh7Q9hktk@andrew.cmu.edu> ew2r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Karl Witte) writes:


>It seems to me that everyone needs to back off from the abortion issue
>and think about it.

>Abortion is a matter of a conflict of rights - the right of a woman to
>have an abortion, and the right of the fetus to come live a life.

No, there are two issues involved in the "abortion issue" which very few 
people seem to distinguish.  There is abortion, and there is choice.  They
really are two separate issues which is why no-one SEEMS to agree when quite
often they really do. (And quite often they don't!)

I am pro-choice.  I am NOT pro-abortion.  I do not favor abortions, I hope
I never have to make the decision about whether or not to have an abortion, 
but it is a traumatic issue which affects millions of WOMEN!


>One thing everyone can agree upon is that no one can agree.  The obvious
>answer is - compromise!  How do we compromise on this issue?  Well, you
>start by shooting the anti - abortion lunatics and the pro - abortion
>lunatics, because they only cloud the issue.  In the end, what most
>people want (according to just about every poll - CNN Gallup, ABC
>Gallup, and a number of others) is that most people favor restricted
>abortions.  People want for abortions to be legal but not used.


You are right when you say people want abortions to be legal and hopefully
not used.  That does not equate, however, to the idea that people favor 
restrictions.  The two don't go hand in hand.  I don't want to see anyone 
HAVE to take up or NEED to or WANT to take up their right to an abortion, but
I do want them to  be able to, and I don't believe restrictions are 
necessarily that effective..



>That doesn't quite work, so look somewhere else, like to Pennsylvania. 
>The Pennsylvania Law which was kept mostly intact by a
>moderate-conservative Supreme Court still makes it illegal for a state
>to ban abortions.  However, it supports the constitutionality of a
>number of simple restrictions, all of which are based upon simple tenets
>of thought in our society.

Where *do* people like you, and the anti-homosexual people find these 
"simple basic tenets" or "decent values" of our society?  Do you just 
reach up into the sky and say, "Wait, that looks like a simple tenet of our
society?"  Or do you take your own beliefs, which make common simple sense
to you, and do you apply your beliefs to an entire society, and assume 
because it makes perfect sense to you, therefore it should make perfect 
sense to everyone else?  It doesn't work that way.  I'm sorry.  I wish it 
did, because then everyone would finally begin to make sense and think the 
way I do! <smile!>



>For example, the waiting period.  What's wrong with making people wait a
>day for an abortion?  Nobody has any problem with it for guns.  A day's

It was obvious when I read this statement, before I ever got to the bottom
of the message, that either you were a man, or you were a woman who has never
been late.



>wait would save many people's lives in the case of voluntary
>manslaughter, a similar case of something done in a heat of passion, or
>any kind of emotional rage.  Forcing a person to wait at least tries to
>insure that they think about their decision.


Do you really believe that women who have abortions don't think about it? Do
you really believe that a woman who discovers an unwanted pregnancy doesn't 
think about it, and whatever decision she makes?  Abortion isn't something 
ANYONE does lightly.  It isn't like going to the dentist to have your teeth
cleaned, it's like going to the dentist to have your wisdom teeth pulled.  It's
going to hurt!  Emotionally.


So let's say you are a woman (use your imagination...), and you discover that
you are pregnant.  Let's imagine for whatever reasons you may have (and yes
Women do HAVE reasons to get an abortion.. we are thinking reasoning creatures
just like man.. contrary to popular belief!), you do DECIDE to get an abortion.

Well, admittedly, making the decision itself isn't easy to begin with.  But you 
do decide, and you've debated in your mind all the issues relevant to you, gone
maybe to P-squared to discuss it with a counselor, talked to your best friend, 
if you're lucky talked with your parents, or spouse, or boyfriend.   But you've
made your decision.

Then you actually have to call the clinic and make an appointment, and actually
show up to it, and quite possibly walk through harassing crowds outside the 
clinic to see the doctor. 

You want to tell this woman that she has to come back tomorrow?  When she's
already spent days, weeks, or more in torment already?

They don't need an extra day to think about it.. they have.  Trust women to 
be able to make a reasonable decision.  And if they don't, well that is THEIR
decision, and their right.


>The same goes for abortion alternatives information.  Providing
>information is something that is easy to do.  Give women pamphlets to
>read during their one-day wait.  They don't have to read them if they
>don't want to, and then they at least have the opportunity of making an
>intelligent choice.

Again, this supposes women don't make an intelligent choice otherwise?


>How about the parental consent law.  Parents should be allowed to know
>what their child is doing.  If the child goes ahead and has an abortion

Do you have teenagers?  Do you really know what your sixteen year old is 
doing?  Obviously if she is pregnant and in need of an abortion, you already 
don't know what she is doing!  Do you know how many abortions have been 
commited by young teenage girls through suicide?  Is that how you want to 
find out what your children are up to?  No, you have to create your own 
trusting relationship with your children -- you can't force the state or the 
government to tell you what your children are up to.  Trust begins between you
and she, and is something you have to nurture her through.

My mother told me when I was about thirteen when she gave me the BIG talk, that
she didn't want me to have sex, but if I ever got pregnant, that it was okay,
and to come talk to her, and we would figure out what to do.   I never got
pregnant, but I ever found myself in that kind of mess, it would take me some
while to do it, but I probably would have talked with my mother about it. 



>with a judge's consent, the parents can punish that child for their
>decision if they wish.  This is such a simple concept it is hard to
>believe anyone should be opposed to it.


Don't you think getting pregnant and having an abortion is "punishment" enough
for a child?? What kind of tyrant are you?  Do you think children go and do 
it lightly?  

Clearly, the more and more I read what you write, it feels like you think 
getting an abortion is as easy as going to the 7-11 to buy a pack of cigarettes.

Yes, Cigarettes should have parental notification, and the parents should 
have the right to choose to punish their child.  NOT for abortion.  For God's
sakes have some compassion!



>Americans don't want abortions banned outright, they don't want
>pregnancies to be free of responsibility, and they don't want to pay for
>other people's abortions.  Find a middle road.  It's hard to believe
>anyone can't like the Pennsylvania Law.  It should be made national. 
>How about it?


Pregnancies are NEVER free of responsibility -- so don't think that this is 
a relevant issue.  The only reason abortions are so expensive is because the 
number of doctors willing to take the risks with insurance, and business 
is very few, unfortunately.  Doing abortions, as a doctor, isn't a very 
respected position by many.  I admire their courage, personally.



>Erik Witte
>   - Open your eyes, the solution is before you. -


Open your eyes, there's a lot more out there than you realize!  You should
take at least twenty four hours to imagine what it would like to be pregnant!
-- 
--Karin
keb3_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: talk.abortion