From: malloy@nprdc.navy.mil (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 18:36:14 GMT

On Apr 7, 11:54am, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> Sean, Sean, Sean.....
> 
> You keep looking at the world using the physics of Core Earth and a Tech
> Axiom of 23. The laws of physics work here so they must work everywhere...
> in Torg that just isn't the case. It makes sense to our 23 Tech minds that
> branches in the Living Land must be able to deliver more power the larger
> they are. We are applying physical laws of our universe to theirs, which
> is where most contradictions lie.

No; what I am saying is that the specifications as to what works and
what does not that WEG gives for the various Tech axiom levels, if it
is interpreted as being that a tool that exceeds the Tech axiom _won't_
work, by its very nature denies that _laws_ of physics can exist.

For example, all pieces of dead wood are dead wood; if there are
_laws_ of physics, then they all must obey the _same_ laws. If the
laws of physics state that, when used as a tool to store and release
energy in compression, a piece of wood can exert _this_ amount of
force resisting compression and no more, then _all_ pieces of wood
must obey that law -- felling a tree and using its trunk as a crude
bridge wouldn't be possible, because the tree, being a piece of wood,
can't exert enough force resisting compression when someone steps on
it not to flex until the person falls into the river; no wooden
structures can be built, because wood lacks the strength to support a
load; go hunting and take down a 100 kilo buck, and you'll have to
carry it home on your back, because if you try to sling the carcass
from a spear between two hunters, the spear shaft will bend until the
carcass is dragging on the ground.

_Different_ laws of physics isn't the problem; the problem is that if
_laws_ of physics exist, then those laws must be _consistent_.

> If we are to apply some of the physical laws (if branches cant support
> that much power, then trees can't support that power)... then we must
> apply all our physical laws... gunpowder should make an explosion in a
> gun because physics says so. In any low tech cosm (land below/LL) this
> is just not the case. Gunpowder is just like any other dust. The
> physical laws that make it blow up don't exist.

Again, no; you've already limited the maximum compressive force you
can get from wood; as long as it's consistently applied everywhere,
it's a _law_ of physics for that cosm. You can make gunpowder
functionally inert by placing an upper limit on the _speed_ of chemical
reactions; applied across the board, this is a consistent change,
establishing a _law_ of physics, and not only defuses the explosive
potential of other compounds, but eliminates the ability to get usable
power from fossil fuels as well as some exploitable oddities like
grain-dust explosions. 

A better example is firearms. At Tech 19, recoil-operated machine guns
are possible; submachine guns are not possible until Tech 20. You can
build a blowback-driven submachine gun identical in design to the
Tech 21 MP-40, but which fires Tech 19 ammunition; explain to me how
the _laws_ of physics permit a recoil-operated machine gun to
function, but prevent a recoil-operated _sub_machine gun from working.
It's a simple application of Newton's First Law; if the recoil forces
exist to operate the machine gun, they'll operate the submachine gun.

-- 
random sig #46:
Sean Malloy                                  | 
Navy Personnel Research & Development Center | If God had meant Man to vote, He
San Diego, CA 92152-6800                     | would have given us candidates.
malloy@nprdc.navy.mil                        | 
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