HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Date: 1 Oct 92 18:56:50 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In article <9389@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:

In <1992Sep30.091620.6641@hellgate.utah.edu> galt%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt) writes:

GA:kicking in your door to search your house is not.  Oh, yeah, I forgot,
GA:you had a choice when you signed your employer's contract--you could
GA:sign it and give up rights, or you could starve.  

MW:Or you could choose to sign on with another company.

GA:Unless all companies used the same standard contract.  Remember, there
GA:would be no anti-trust laws to prevent companies from joining together
GA:to preserve their common interest.  Try to get a credit card now...

I don't know of any libertarians who support the elimination of anti-trust
laws.  Except maybe the extreme anarchist wing.

How about if argue about what libertarianism stands for, instead of what
you want it to stand for.

-- 
Mark
My opinions are mine, all mine.  Unless someone else claims them first.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com

Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins)
Subject: Re: Please let Marrou debate!
Organization: None
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:13:40 GMT


>> >  Send letters of concern to:
>> >
>> >     Janet Brown
>> >     Executive Director
>> >     Commission on Presidential Debates
>> >     601 13th Street NW, Suite 310 South
>> >     Washington, DC 20005
>
>Or call 202-872-1020 and ask for Denise.


I sent my letter today asking that Perot and Marrou both be included
since they are on the ballot in all 50 states. If she disagrees, I ask
her to send the groundrules of why they should be excluded.

Send yours TODAY....

Joe
joec@morgan.com
From: bill@prijat.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:32:46 GMT
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences

In article <60739@mimsy.umd.edu>, leonard@mimsy.umd.edu (Leonard Dickens) writes:
|> 
|> Taxes, I suppose.  (Let us be realistic.  Income taxes are not
|> vanishing in the forseeable future, especially with the huge deficit
|> the bastards have run up on us.)  I have seen estimates on this group
|> that public schools currently cost 6-9K/pupil/year, and private ones
|> are less.  Anyone have a pointer on real data on this?  
|> 

I don't have the dollar amounts, but this past summer when all the school
districts were making their current budgets ( and the tax liabilities that
went along with them) public, a School Board meeting at The Northwest School
District (a rural school district in NE PA) almost broke into open warfare
when it was announce that this years cost per student was going to be enough
to pay the tuition at the most exclusive private school in NE PA and have 
enough left over to cover bussing them there.  Needless to say, the general
populace was not amused.  Also needless to say, they got the budget they 
asked for and increased all the school taxes to support it.

Now, what choice did all these people have??

bill

-- 

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     bill@platypus.uofs.edu   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     bill@tuatara.uofs.edu    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:59:16 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <ISBELL.92Oct5145623@panther.ai.mit.edu> isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:

>mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
>|>If I could?  I can.  Anyone watching Peter Jennings earlier this week
>|>knows that.  So, I guess I've managed to mean something, haven't I?  
>|I didn't please post.

>Post what?  They discussed how inner city folks paid more for food
>that their suburban counterparts and got less quality for the money. 

Since I haven't seen the article, I asked you to tell me about it.  You
just did, thank you.

BTW, I asked you if the inner city stores were making above average profits.
You refered me to this Peter Jennings piece.  Now according to you the 
piece just says that the stores charge more.  Why can't you answer the
question that was asked?

>|The ease or difficulty of opening a new school is not the issue here.

>But you keep bringing it up.

I keep bringing it up because you keep saying that if they are allowed to
open schools now, why don't they?

>|The issue is finding enough students to stay open.  

>Why is this an issue but the difficulty of opening a new school not an
>issue? 

Because without vouchers the students can't afford to go.

>...unless it costs more than the vouchers provide.

I have answered this so many times my fingers hurt.

>|As I see our disagreement, I have been saying that new schools will appear
>|and you have responding, what if they don't.

>Well then, what if they don't?

If you have a point then make it.  This sophistry is getting tiring.

>|I claim that history of other markets makes me believe that the market in
>|schooling will behave the same way.  If you do not believe it will please
>|state your reasons.

>Supermarkets.  Lack of demand.

I have explained why I think there is plenty of demand, please show
why you think there isn't.

>|If you do not agree with my inference, please state why and what the
>|correct inference should have been.  Merely stating that I am wrong is
>|not sufficient for me.

>A straight line....

Another non-answer.  Are you realy this dense?

I have tried to debate with you.  You show no interest in any honest
debate, all you have done is evade my questions, and keep asking the
same questions of your own without ever explaining why you feel my
answers are "inadequate".

I have better ways to waste my time.

-- 
Mark
My opinions are mine, all mine.  Unless someone else claims them first.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
From: isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Please let Marrou debate! -- and CNN's Crossfire
Date: 4 Oct 92 14:40:41 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
In-reply-to: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu's message of 3 Oct 92 04:00:40 GMT

Lenore Fulani is *not* on all 50 states.  She isn't on GA's (I just
got my absentee ballot yesterday).  There are only four:  Reps, Dems,
Indep (Perot), Libs.
--
Peace.
         "It's rural America.  It's where I came from.  
          We always refer to ourselves as real America.  
          Rural America, real America, real, real, America."
                      -- Vice President Dan Quayle
                                   -\--/-
    Don't just adopt opinions     |  \/  |       Some of you are homeboys
          develop them.           |  /\  | but only I am The Homeboy From hell
                                   -/--\-

Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: antitrust
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 06:27:35 GMT

In article <qjdi5o0@zola.esd.sgi.com> thant@void.esd.sgi.com (Thant Tessman) writes:
}
}The antitrust laws were motivated by people who wanted to get into the
}market, but couldn't afford to.

Partly.  Populists also observed statist intervention that monopolized
producers, ostensibly for the good of the producer, and noted the resulting
detriment to consumers, and demanded intervention on behalf of consumers -
rather than the abolition of the intervention!  This is treating a disease
with its cause, not its cure.

The solution was to use the government
}to limit the market acess of the established suppliers until the price of
}the good was high enough that market entry was possible.  This was done
}in the name of competition, of course.  And the movement fed on the fear
}and hatred of many monopolies that did seem to wield arbitrary power in
}the marketplace.  But more often than not, these monopolies were created
}by government force (e.g. the railroads).  

But not the Great Norther Railroad, don't forget.  It wasn't a coercive
monopoly, served its customers better than any other, and was victim of one
of the first anti-trust suits.  There's no justification for anti-trust
law, and it should be repealed.


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 22:39:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.211553.26045@vela.acs.oakland.edu> wlee@argo.acs.oakland.edu writes:
>Question to the "anarcho"-capitalists and "libertarians" at large:
>
>Whence the seemingly unshakeable faith in the inability of the private
>sector to coerce?

Because libertarians _define_ coercion to just mean physical coercion.
It's certainly true that being in a bad situation economically can lead
to you doing things that you don't want to do.

>Seems to me in a buyers' market or sellers' market the sellers or
>buyers respectively get the short end of the deal.  Market leverage is
>Power.  There are all kinds of things I would do differently if not for
>its existence, and I believe I would be freer absent of it.

The best I can say to that is that physical coercion is even worse,
and that it seems as though most people who worry about economic
coercion think that physical coercion is the solution.

>I have a positive attitude about exchanging equal value for equal value,
>IF I can approach my adversary on an equal footing.
>
>
>Note:  Credit where credit's due.  I feel I understand the Libertarian
>Party well enough to know I emphatically don't support it, but it is the
>only American political party that isn't an insult to my intelligence.

Gee....thanks. That's the nicest compliment I've heard in a while,
even though I'm a non-party libertarian. 

>That includes the other third parties.  You folks challenge me...keep it
>up.
>
>
>
>Walter Lee    wlee@argo.acs.oakland.edu, lee@plex-1.ann-arbor.mi.us
>
>Keep the Aspidistra Flying!

Nancy Lebovitz



Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: robert@kohlrabi.tcs.com (Robert Blumen)
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Organization: Teknekron Communications Systems Inc.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 22:22:01 GMT

wlee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee) writes:

>Question to the "anarcho"-capitalists and "libertarians" at large:

>Whence the seemingly unshakeable faith in the inability of the private
>sector to coerce?

It always annoys me to hear the word "faith" used in this context.  It is
very common in media, etc. to hear that libertarians or conservatives or
whomever has some sort of mystical "faith" in the free market.

Most libertarians have various beliefs and/or opinions about the market
based on fact, reason, experience, opinion, conjecture, anecdotal evidence,
etc.  But the term "faith" has the connotation of some belief that is held
out of mystical reverence for an idea without holding it up to some sort of
scrutiny.  

This is condescending as it implies that libertarians haven't thought about
why they hold their beliefs, and that there is no reason or evidence behind
it, simply an irrational choice to believe in free markets.

Robert

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Blumen                          | robert@tcs.com
Senior Software Engineer               | 2121 Allston Way, Berkeley, CA 94704
Teknekron Communications Systems, Inc. | (510) 649-3759
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: wlee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Subject: Re: Utopia is not an option
Reply-To: wlee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 02:45:53 GMT


I've said it before and I'll say it again.  I'm not a utopian.  I'd settle for
a world in which nice guys finish second last.


Bucky Fuller said utopia is an option.  He said oblivion is the other.  Maybe
I'll see you there.


Walter Lee    wlee@argo.acs.oakland.edu, lee@plex-1.ann-arbor.mi.us

Keep the Aspidistra Flying!
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
From: helgeu@dhhalden.no (Helge Rene Uholm)
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 00:19:53 GMT

wlee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee) writes:

>Question to the "anarcho"-capitalists and "libertarians" at large:

>Whence the seemingly unshakeable faith in the inability of the private
>sector to coerce?

>Seems to me in a buyers' market or sellers' market the sellers or
>buyers respectively get the short end of the deal.  Market leverage is
  
   The assumption that one of them must get the short end is wrong. If you are 
feeling that you are loosing on a deal you wont do the deal. Thats it.

helgeu@dhhalden.no
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: FAQ?
Date: 3 Oct 92 22:25:00 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Subject line says it all...if no FAQ, what is the best single work
setting forth contemporary Libertarian thought?
-- 
********************************** +.............................+
*- Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>* :All opinions expressed herein:
*There is no privileged position.* :are my own and are not to be :
*	-God, Derrida, others    * : attributed to my employer   :
********************************** +.............................+
From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:42:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <ISBELL.92Oct5090459@panther.ai.mit.edu>, isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes...
>starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>|}Well, if Mark Wilson is a libertarian then there's one.  I'd be
>|}interested to know other libs who do.  I would have thought it an
>|}obvious derivation fromt he central positions.
>|}
>|}Of course, Libs aren't Objectivists.
> 
>|Not quite.  There are Objectivist libertarians, like me, there are anti-
>|Libertarian Objectivists, anti-Objectivist libertarians, and "believers of
>|either faith" who are neutral to the other.
> 
>Right.  Libs aren't Objectivists.

	Actually, there are LP members who consider themselves Objectivists.
You may not agree with them on this, but there you are.  There is room for
Objectivists in the LP.


Mark Sulkowski
From: dsteinbe@nmsu.edu (David Steinberg)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.
Date: 1 Oct 92 01:34:59 GMT
	<qa1euo8@zola.esd.sgi.com> <ISBELL.92Sep25211132@panther.ai.mit.edu>
	<60698@mimsy.umd.edu> <ISBELL.92Sep28232318@panther.ai.mit.edu>
	<9368@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>
	<ISBELL.92Sep29134041@panther.ai.mit.edu>
	<9371@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

In article <9371@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:

   BTW, I would be willing to get up an hour earlier to drive my daughter to
   a truly better school, wouldn't you.


Hey, I don't even KNOW your daughter... :@)
-David "ZZYZX" Steinberg
***********************************
*  "There's a dog in the station  *
*   With a bad reputation         *
*   That's a sign of the nation's *
*   Decay"                        *
***********************************
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Why should I vote for Marrou?
Keywords: snowball's chance
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:43:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct1.170318.13169@iplmail.orl.mmc.com>, steveg@iplmail.orl.mmc.com (Steve Gabrilowitz) writes...
>How can I vote for a candidate who admits he has no chance of winning?  Isn't this
>just about the same as throwing my vote away, or just plain not voting at all?


	First of all, if you vote for someone you DON'T believe in, you are
also throwing your vote away.

	Your vote is very meaningful in that it helps to build the Libertarian
Party, especially in helping it to escape those money-draining ballot access
laws.  The LP will be stronger in the future with your support.


Mark Sulkowski
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:09:35 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <1992Sep30.091620.6641@hellgate.utah.edu> galt%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt) writes:

GA:kicking in your door to search your house is not.  Oh, yeah, I forgot,
GA:you had a choice when you signed your employer's contract--you could
GA:sign it and give up rights, or you could starve.  

Or you could choose to sign on with another company.

-- 
Mark
My opinions are mine, all mine.  Unless someone else claims them first.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
From: rcollins@encore.com (Roger Collins)
Subject: Re: monopolies and the DeBeers diamond syndicate
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:00:45 GMT

Yes, by all means, congress should call a special session to consider
more anti-free-trade legislation, less you be required to pay more than
you think is fair for your next diamond neckless.
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:53:36 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <ISBELL.92Oct4180142@panther.ai.mit.edu> isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:

[stuff about Minnesotta schools deleted]

>I found that somewhat counter-intuitive.  Anyone have any possible
>reasons for the criterion "academic excellence" ranking so low (I can
>think of one, I suppose:  all the schools were so excellent that it
>didn't matter)?

Possibly they felt that the were all equally bad that it didn't matter.
I personally have attended several public schools and I found them to
be all about the same.  If you didn't make too much trouble they would
ignore you.

It may take a few generations to teach parents how to shop for schools
again.

-- 
Mark
My opinions are mine, all mine.  Unless someone else claims them first.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: antitrust
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 23:32:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.155910.15598@hellgate.utah.edu>, galt%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt) writes:
> In article <qjdi5o0@zola.esd.sgi.com> thant@void.esd.sgi.com (Thant Tessman) writes:
> >And if you look back in history, this is what you see.  The monopolies
> >that survived without or with little assistance in the form of government
> >intervention did so by constantly lowering prices, not (as is often
> >claimed) by lowering them to drive everybody out of business, and then
> >subsequently raising them again.  For example, the price of oil during
> >the Standard Oil "monopoly" fell from more than $2 per gallon in the
> >early 1860s to approximately six cents per gallon at the time Standard
> >Oil was taken to court in 1907.  They had also constantly lost market
> >share without the 'help' of government.  Standard Oil's market share had
> >dropped to approximately 64% by 1907.  The same pattern can be seen with
> >the price of aluminum and the Alcoa 'monopoly.'
> 
> Ok, now I have a few questions.  Are monopolies in a libertarian society
> good or bad?  Are they something that will happen in a libertarian society,
> or are they something that is impossible to exist without government help?

  A "natural monopoly" (ie one that occurs without coersion) would be
a rare thing. Of course, this entirely depends on your definition of
what constitues a monopoly. For example, is a bus company a monopoly
if there exists alternative forms a transportation (say rail, cars, etc.)?
In the strict sense of the word a lone bus company would be, but generally
people take "monopoly" to mean something along the lines of "the only 
game in town".

> Different libertarians seem to have very different views on these issues.
> I imagine getting rid of government support of the idea of 
> "corporations" could make monopolies much more difficult...        

  I don't think that getting rid of corporations (ie limited liability)
would have any effect one way or the other with respect to monopolies.
Natural monopolies exist only when competitive forces leave one competitor
and has little to do with liability considerations.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: rlglende@netcom.com (Robert Lewis Glendenning)
Subject: Libertarian Forum : fun or making a difference?
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 18:15:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

-- 
Lew Glendenning		rlglende@netcom.com	408-245-7488

"Perspective is worth 80 IQ points."	Nils Bohr (or somebody like that).
From: isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.
Date: 4 Oct 92 13:02:46 GMT
	<ISBELL.92Oct2083027@panther.ai.mit.edu> <6984@transfer.stratus.com>
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
In-reply-to: cdt@sw.stratus.com's message of 2 Oct 92 22:19:59 GMT

cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
|isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:
|> Oh, stop it.  I've been attacked as a statist and told how I believe
|> this that and the other by everyone who can't seem to tell the
|> difference between questioning the assertion of the inherent
|> wonderfulness of vouchers and "defending the state" to worry about the
|> sensitivity of the McDonalds crowd on USENET.
|> 
|> Personally, I like Mickey D's.  I also like fatty foods.  I can do
|> that and still appreciate the irony of someone saying that vouchers
|> will be wonderful for education--we'll get the equivalent of
|> McDonald's. 
|> 
|> The point of my reply, for the subtle-impaired is this:  customer
|> satisfaction is not necessarily a function of quality.

|This is such an elitist argument that rebuttal is almost hopeless.

Is not.

|If quality is not giving people exactly what they want, what is it?

Satisfaction, in real time, isn't defined as giving people exactly
what they want.

|Who defines it?  And who made him God?  

I don't know.  You just defined it, did you not?  Are you God?

--
Peace.
         "It's rural America.  It's where I came from.  
          We always refer to ourselves as real America.  
          Rural America, real America, real, real, America."
                      -- Vice President Dan Quayle
                                   -\--/-
    Don't just adopt opinions     |  \/  |       Some of you are homeboys
          develop them.           |  /\  | but only I am The Homeboy From hell
                                   -/--\-

Xref: sparky alt.politics.libertarian:439 alt.politics.marrou:1376