From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1992 23:25:12 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr6.123648.1@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au>, b_robinson@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au writes:
|> In article <1992Apr03.195813.6271@watson.ibm.com>, strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
|> > In article <81676@rphroy.ph.gmr.com>, hamilton@hydra.cs.gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50) writes:
|> > 
|> > |> Judaism. And there are people like Rob, who from their perspective have had
|> > |> their families torn apart by family members becoming Christians. The Lord warned
|> > |> that this would happen, but it's possible that your practices unnecessarily
|> > |> aggravate broken relationships in some instances.  While Messianic Judaism
|> > 
|> > I'd just like to clarify the above.
|> > 
|> > What upset me and my wife was not that her brother and sister
|> > became Christians, but the circumstances under which they
|> > did so.  My brother-in-law was converted at a time when
|> > he was going through a great psychological upheaval, was
|> > neither strong nor knowledgeable, and was very vulnerable.
|> > He then converted his sister who was not yet a teenager
|> > and also very vulnerable to his messages about hell.
|> > I don't consider that either made an informed decision
|> > to change religions.  
|> > 
|> A question to Rob: do you consider them still to be vulnerable, or have they
|> become "strong and knowledgeable"? If the former, and you believe in that kind
|> of prayer, it might be appropriate to pray that they might become strong enough
|> to make an informed decision.
|> 
|> From our point of view as Christians, I think most of us would rather have a
|> committed Jew, who has made an informed decision, than someone who *thinks* he
|> is a Christian, but really isn't.
|> 

Your second paragraph implies that people who make "uninformed
decisions" to become Christians aren't really Christians.  I
doubt that most of your co-religionists agree.  Especially
when they completely change their life in response to this
decision.  That's what my wife's brother and sister did.
They abandoned their old friends, and formed new relationships
exclusively centered around Born-Again Christian communities.
They stopped reading books except for tracts from these
same communities.  This went on for years.  They then
married Christians.  I have previously posted that my
wife's brother married a woman belonging to a fundamentalist
cult which so controlled the family that he was unable
to leave the cult because the pastor whisked his wife
and child off to England until he "repented".  

At this point what does an informed decision mean?  My
wife's sister has by now lived more of her life as
a Christian than as a Jew, is married to an evangelist
minister, lives in an entirely Christian-centered
universe, etc.  What earthly good does it do to
pray that she reconsider a decision she was pressured
into making when she was twelve?  What about
her young son?  He is (halachically) Jewish.
Would you approve of my secretly meeting with
the young boy to try to get him to return to
Judaism?

|> In relation to our proselytizing activities, and another recent posting, Jesus
|> told a story to illustrate this, saying it's like a beggar who found food, and
|> then went and told other beggars. I think I've got it right, but I can't
|> remember where it is written. Jesus no doubt had in mind the lepers who told
|> the people of Samaria, when G_d destroyed the Assyrian army, that there was
|> abundant food available. (2 Kings 7).
|> 
The analogy breaks down because it's a reasonable
presumption that the other beggars are hungry and
that your food is better than no food.  That's
not a reasonable presumption with respect to
religion.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598