HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
In-reply-to: francis@oas.stanford.edu's message of Tue, 1 Sep 1992 10:50:44 GMT
Organization: pubs
Date: 1 Sep 92 11:12:32 CDT

Francis Muir writes:

   Yes, I have been surprised at the mindless and inordinate amount of
   attention that TIMESWEEK has been getting -- as though they were the
   only sources of news. ... Of the American pop weeklies, PEOPLE
   magazine is the least pretentious and has rather good film reviews.
   certainly their standard of writing is quite superior to TIMESWEEK.
   Of course, their straightforward style might not appeal to the pseudo
   intellectual RAB mindset.

Proposing People or The Nation as alternatives to the newsmagazines
somewhat misses the point, a bit like Sports Illustrated's old slogan
(aimed at potential advertisers) "the third newsmagazine".  Although I
agree with the criticisms aimed at Time and Newsweek, other magazines,
good or bad, aren't intended to serve the same purpose (and they don't).
There is value in a good weekly synthesis of news, but no magazine
really delivers this anymore.  Time's 3- or 4-page wrapup is pathetic;
compare it with pre-lobotomy Time to get a sense of what has happened to
the country's educational level.  (And I had plenty of criticisms of
Time even back then.)  The Economist doesn't fill the bill, nor does the
New York Times's "Week in Review", which concentrates on analysis and
essays rather than summarizing the actual news.  The function of the
original Time mag is simply no longer being served.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,alt.cascade
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Followup-To: alt.folklore.urban,alt.cascade
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:40:10 GMT

In article <H.JIPuP7JbvOU@harvee.billerica.ma.us> scm@harvee.billerica.ma.us writes:
>
>>>>} >>>>>>>IF THIS DOESN'T STOP, IM GOING TO START THE WORST CASCADE EVER.
>>>>} >>>>>>WHILE EATING THIS SLOP, I SEWED THE FIRST BROCADE BEAVER.
>>>>} >>>>>BILE FITTING RIG STOP, LIE SPEWED THIRST LIVER !!!!
>>>>} >>>>IF YOU MUST CONTRIBUTE, AT LEAST DELIVER...
>>>>} >>>WHO MAY I ATTRIBUTE TO THIS BEASTLY SLIVER?
>>>>} >>TO SPAY A LUTE IN A GREASY RIVER
>>>>} >DAMN CASCADERS THINK YOU'RE SO CLEVER
>>>>} I WILL NOT CASCADE; NOPE, NO, NEVER
>>>>WOULD YOU, COULD YOU, ON A TRAIN?
>>>WOULD YOU, COULD YOU, IN THE RAIN?
>>R2-D2 ON THE BRAIN?
>LOST TWO-FIFTY DOWN THE DRAIN.
AND THEN AN ALBINO ALLIGATOR GRABBED IT.
-- 
           .........................................................
          ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu | standard disclaimers
         the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
         here i sit looking for a warming smile in a house of cold wit
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mem@mv.mv.com (Mark E. Mallett)
Subject: Re: [UPI] Report: Book censorship, challenges in schools at 10-year high
Organization: MV Communications, Inc.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 05:00:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.214241.984@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>	The group said the most frequently challenged books during 1991-92
>school year included Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck;

What is the basis of this particular challenge?  I've not heard of it.
(the complaint, that is... )


>	``More than one-fifth of all incidents were the handiwork of
>extremist conservative groups or individuals at the national or local
>level,'' People for the American Way reported.

I'm curious as to why this is an impressive statistic.  What about the
other four-fifths?

-mm-
-- 
Mark E. Mallett  MV Communications, Inc./ PO Box 4963/ Manchester NH/ 03108
Bus. Phone: 603 429 2223    Home: 603 424 8129     BIX: mmallett
Internet: mem@mv.MV.COM  ( uucp: ...{decvax|harvard}!mv!mem )
Looking for news and mail in southern NH / northern MA?  Try MV!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:51:05 GMT

William R. Smith writes:

	Emma Pease writes:

		This is true only in a general sense.  Stanford, where 
		Francis works and posts, ...

Correction. Francis works at Stanford but Fido posts from Redwood City.

		... is not in Palo Alto despite the errors stating it is 
		in many newsmagazines and newspapers.  

	What, is Stanford an entity unto itself, like the Vatican?  I always
	thought it was in Palo Alto.  Get you get sanctuary on the Stanford
	campus?

Indeed. An entity unto itself. Erehwon. Sanctuary at Snodfart? Good heavens
no. You must be thinking of the enclave known as the Hoover Institute. Here
several persons have been holed up for several years, resisting all attempts
to get them to recant their Political Incorrectitude. For taxation purposes
we are a Farm, and Law & Order are provided by the Sheriff of the County of
Santa Clara. Think of us as Robin Hood and his Merrie Men.

								Fido
From: nall@sun8.scri.fsu.edu (John Nall)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Travels through the Yucatan....
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:32:05 GMT
Reply-To: nall@sun8.scri.fsu.edu (John Nall)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <10489@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> nall@sun8.scri.fsu.edu (John Nall) writes:

  ...

>This was called, if I remember correctly, "Travels in the
>Yucatan," and was a non-fiction book, written in the mid or
>late nineteenth century.  I come up with a total blank trying
>to remember the author (my stupid mind, doing a table lookup,
>keeps coming up with "Beowulf".  Well, I *know* that is not
>it :-) but can't remember what it is).

   OK, with a little bit of mail (which was not quite right,
   but close enough for me to remember it) I now have the name
   of the author:

		JOHN LLOYD STEPHENS

John


--
John W. Nall              | Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
nall@mailer.scri.fsu.edu  | Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL 32306
  "Older women, make beautiful lovers - older women, they understand..."
    (song heard on radio, driving, one rainy night in Mississippi)
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:15280 rec.humor:27384 alt.folklore.urban:22512 rec.arts.sf.misc:2762
From: speers@opus.mcds.com (Daniel E. Speers)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 21:03:11 EDT
Organization: Dan's Domain, Randolph, New Jersey

st890270@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (LUCIFER) writes:

> tsuanian@cc.curtin.edu.au writes
> > (motivation of god to create people)
> 
> two things. the heaven & hell concept is a new-fangled Christian idea, and we
> Jews still consider it a little cockeyed ]:{)
> 
> as to why create people: nobody ever claimed god is immune to boredom.
> (or maybe, he has his reasons, but they are beyond our imagining. After all,
> can you actually imagine omnipotence?)

  Nevemind motivation...  If God created us, who created God?

  Second Question:  If God can do anything, can (s)he create
                    a rock that (s)he cannot lift?


Ignorance is bliss...

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: vrkaramc@mtu.edu (Karamchedu)
Subject: Re: Time for Burgess?
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 03:45:49 GMT

spb0457@zeus.tamu.edu (SubGenius) writes:
>
>Just picked up the second volume of Anthony Burgess' autobiography, and was
>wondering if I should put of reading it until I obtain and read the first
>volume.
>
>Any comments would be appreciated.  Well, all comments will be read, anyway.
>
>
>Yours etc.,
>
>SubGenius 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Interesting to come across someone who is reading Burgess (the first one I
know apart from whom I've suggested to read Anthony Burgess).   I read some
of his books: The Enderby series, Clockwork series, 1985, Piano Players,
Kingdom of God (is the title right ?), and an explosive work, Beard's Roman 
Woman, apart from some others.  By the way is `Beds in the East' by Burgess
or Orwell ? ( I am getting confused ). His `End of the world news' is another 
scintillating work. Another massive volume, I don't recall the name, about 700 
pages, I think, was also an enchanting one to read. 

I didn't read his Autobiography. But judging by the way Burgess treats some
of his works ( an acutely sardonic approach), I won't mind reading the 
second volume before first, if it comes to that.


Raj
From: dcox@relay.nswc.navy.mil (David Cox)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Movie based on "The Aspern Papers"?
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:46:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: NSWC

I recently read a collection of six short novels by Henry James,
and the only one that stood out was "The Aspern Papers." My 
father mentioned that a movie was made of that work, under
a different name, but he wasn't sure of the fact, or the name.
I couldn't find an entry under the novel's title in the one movie
guide I looked in. Does anyone know if a movie was made of 
this work, and if so, what its name was? Thanks.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:15249 rec.humor:27332 alt.folklore.urban:22424 rec.arts.sf.misc:2746
From: snow@netcom.com (Tim Szeliga)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Buckdancer's choice
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:04:50 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <BtvtMA.7DB@wsrcc.com> alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:
>	Anyone know what this phrase means?  It is both the title of a
>James Dickey poetry collection and is mentioned in the song "Uncle
>John's Cabin."
>
>	Everyone else who read this group a few years ago seemed to
>know what a reiver was, so I trust that dozens of you know the answer
>to this question, too!
>
>-- 
>Alison Chaiken 				alison@wsrcc.com
>(510) 422-7129 [daytime] 		or chaiken@cmsgee.llnl.gov
>(510) 422-7300 [FAX]
>Live fast, die young, leave a long publication list.


In the poem "Buckdancer's Choice", Dickey explains it is an old bluegrass
fiddle tune, that his dying mother, despite her emphysema, whistles in her bed.

An interesting side note: BC was published in the New Yorker as a sidebar
in the middle of JD Salinger's last publication "Hapworth 16, 1941".
(I may be off on the title.)  The work is dreadful.  Don't regret Salinger's
silence until you've read it.


Tim Szeliga	 Org: National Weather Service / Hydrologic Remote Sensing
UUCP:	apple!netcomsv!frost!tim		Internet: snow@netcom.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If a snob imitates the manners of the class above him,
a bohemian imitates the manners of the class below him.
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The White Man's Burden of Proof
Date: 4 Sep 92 14:32:33 GMT


jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy), who is a master at quoting out
of context, writes:
 
> Mark Taranto posts:
>
>        The ONLY people I have ever heard complain about racism
>      towards whites (other than Clayton) are white supremicists.
>
> Mark hasn't been paying much attention unless he claims magical
> means of identifying white supremacists.  Almost all of the people
> who complained about the singer who said it was time for a week
> of killing whites called it racist.
 
I'm sure that they did.  But were they using the same catch phrases that
are used by the KKK and various white supremecist groups?  I doubt it.
 
This was my point.  Nearly everyone will agree that there are individual
acts of racism towards whites.  My point about why people make assumptions
about Clayton Cramer was HOW he talks about it, not THAT he talks about
it.
 
Many of these catch phrases are designed to sound reasonable or innocuous
until it is discovered what is really meant by them.  I'd like to believe
that Cramer is using a standard definition of these words, as opposed to
stating them with insidious intent.  But the fact remains that if he
continues to use the same language as these fringe groups, people will
assume that he is sympathetic to their views.  It is a shame, but it
is a reality.
 
Mark
From: jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Wordstruck
Date: 29 Aug 92 19:07:01 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <9208271603.AA08975@cfdev1.shearson.com> mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:

>msmorris@watsci.waterloo.edu (Mike Morris) writes:

>> The typing is dedicated to Joann, the subject matter mostly
>> to Matt and Tom, and the cricket (sorry no Eco this time) to Francis.

Oh my! This is almost as embarassing as being dedicated to on the
radio when I was 14.

[...]
>I just worry
>about Carpal-Tunnel syndrome.  Perhaps we can all chip in to buy him an
>ergonomic keyboard.

Amen. Perhaps one of those split jobbies, so his write hand will not
know what the other is typing.


-- 
"[Fiction's] function is not to detail the actual world, but to create
a parallel one. Image by image, phrase by phrase, through artifice and
evocation it must then make that world at once credible and meaningful."
-- Robert Stone               ...!cs.utexas.edu!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!jzimm
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Date: 29 Aug 92 16:54:42 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Jon Corelis expresses surprise at the wit and expressiveness of the writing in
The Economist. It's not just that...most print media have been going
down-market for 30 years or more, trying to dumb themselves down enough to win
the attention of a TV-drugged public. Perhaps the saddest American example is
the recent self-lobotomization of Time Magazine--which in its early days had a
brittle, witty style that lent itself to mockery but certainly didn't insult
its readers' intelligence.

The Economist, whatever its politics (and I find its confident tone sometimes
absurd), has aimed for a market of educated, literate readers who want
information rather than glitzy layouts and color photographs. While it's
expensive compared to the US and Canadian newsweeklies, on a per-fact basis
it's the best bargain around.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Arthur Hugh Clough. Was: Re: I give up...
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 03:21:51 GMT

Gary Stonum writes:

	Francis Muir writes:

		Clough? Clough? Oh, you know, the one that Churchill 
		quoted in one of his wartime orations:

	Clough?
	Enough!

Stonum?
Dumb!

Arthur Hugh Clough was the only 20th century poet who had the misfortune
to be born in the early 19th century. 

	Honor thy parents, that is, all
	From whom advancement may befall.
	Thou shall not kill; but needst not strive
	Officiously to keep alive.

					*The Latest Decalogue*

Fido

						
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 2 Sep 92 11:31:26

In article <1992Sep2.131743.22632@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:

   John McCarthy writes:

	   I was surprised to read about Britain:

		   owning weapons has been anything but the prerogative 
		   of the Armed Forces.  The sole exception has always 
		   been hunting weapons. 

							   Fido

	   As usual Cramer has the detailed facts.  I was, and still am, 
	   willing to bet Francis $50 that he was mistaken purely on the 
	   basis of my reading of British detective stories.  No gentleman 
	   was ever bothered about owning a weapon in such a story.

   I'm not quite sure I understand the terms of John's wager, so I'll decline
   -- although the $50 would come in handy. Unlike Clayton Cramer and, say,
   Mike Godwin, for the purposes of rec.arts.books I do not live in a factual 
   world. My world is perceived.  Opinionated. I have made the point before,
   and Mike has come to understood this. There is nothing unique in my position. 
   It is a trick I may have picked up from the Oxford Union, where sides to a
   debate are more or less decided by the President, not the persons who are
   to be involved in the debate. It does seem to be a uniquely British modus,
   and can also be seen in the way the Criminal Justice system works in the
   UK. Rumpole rarely has a passionate belief in the innocence of his clients.
   What he has is something more important: a belief in the right of the
   accused, however lowly, to a good defence.

							   Fido

Ah, I am beginning to understand why Clayton Cramer ought not to be
allowed to post to rec.arts.books.  The gall of the man, bringing
into a recreational group concerned with books what actual laws
were passed about guns in Britain in 1870 and 1921.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: bkt@blacks.jpl.nasa.gov (Barrie Trinkle)
Subject: Re: Family Relationships
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:05:30 GMT

mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
>Keith Morgan writes:

>        Mike Godwin writes:

>                The first name is Don. The last name is not Lazlo--it's
>                Novello. Don Novello is the creator of the characters
>                Lazlo Toth and Father Guido Sarducci.

>        Barrie Trinkle adds:

>                And the brother of U.S. Surgeon General Antonia Novello.

>        The propensity for uniforms must run in the family.

>As I wrote to Barrie, I suspect his sources.  General Novello speaks
                                 ^^^

   Make that "her", please, Mark.

   Is "U.S. Surgeon General" a military title?  I don't remember ever
seeing Koop addressed as "General Koop".

>English with a (somewhat) heavy Hispanic accent, while Don does not.
>Novello could be Italian or Hispanic.  

   I believe I read this brother-sister factoid in the L. A. Times, 
but my error bars are large.   I also remember reading therein 
that Antonia Novello is Cuban-born.

   My apologies if any of this is incorrect.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
..nothing is so fatal to maidenly delicacy of speech as the run of 
a good library.
				Robertson Davies, _Tempest Tost_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Sea Stories
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 16:14:29 GMT

Lisa Levine writes:

	_Dead Ned_  and  _Live and Kicking Ned_ by John Masefield. 

	He has one or two other seafaring-type novels.  These are
	children's books, but as I recall, well written and based 
	(no doubt loosely, since there are pirates) on some of his 
	own experiences.

In her book *Arthur Ransome and Capt. Flint's Trunk*, Christina Hardyment
writes of Ransome's early years:

	"...In London he met the poet John Masefield, author of
	*Salt-Water Ballads* and exciting tales of pirates on
	the Spanish Main. They walked to Greenwich and watched
	the tall ships slipping out to sea. Masefield wrote an
	article on sea shanties which Ransome arranged to publish.
	It includes most of the songs which appear in the books
	[Ransome's books]: 'Spanish Ladies', 'Hanging Johnny',
	'Salt Beef', and so on."

For those interested, I beleieve that Miss Hardyment's PhD is on the life 
and works of Arthur Ransome, so we may take it that he is canonized.

							Fido
ransome
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Back to Books
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:58:33 GMT

Janine Schenone writes:

	I have a problem, which I hope you R.a.b.belaisians can help me 
	solve: I am in a fiction funk. The problem is so severe that I 
	believe they should add a new diagnostic category to depression 
	for people who can't seem to find anything to read. 

An abnormally severe case. You are a prime candidate for Buck-U-Uppo. No
side effects, and no contra-indications. Plum will put you to rights.

							Fido
From: ano@csug.cs.reading.ac.uk (Adrian Ogden)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Need help finding some books
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:17:27 GMT
Organization: University of Reading


I'm trying to trace a couple of books. Unfortunately
all I have are their titles:

        The Grand Master
        The High Priest

Both are by the same authors.

Can anyone help?


<<   Adrian Ogden   _ . _ _   _ . _ _   _ _ . .   ano@uk.ac.rdg.cs.csug   >>
From: Brennan.J.Murphy.53@nd.edu (Brennan murphy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.prose
Subject: paper topic help
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:46:00 GMT
Organization: University of Notre Dame

I am a Junior English major at the University of Notre Dame.  In my 20th
>cent. poetry class we are required to do an 8-10 page research paper
>including footnotes and bibliography. 
>Can anyone suggest a topic including references?
>
As of now, here are the texts we will be reading this semester:
>			Rilke, Selected Poetry of R. M. Rilke
>			Celan, Poems of Paul Celan
>			khlebnikov, The king of Time
>			W.C. Williams, Selected poems
>			Stevens, The Palm at the End of the Mind
>			Baranczak, Spoiling Cannibals' Fun:Polish Poetry...
>			Bialoszewski, The Revolution of Things.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:30:27 GMT

In article <25378@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>I'm surprised to have seen no mention of the one US news magazine
>that is intelligent, informative, well-written, and entertaining.
>I refer, of course, to The Nation. The regular columns by, in
>particular, Christopher Hitchens, Alexander Cockburn and Edward
>Said are streets ahead of anything found in The Economist and its
>ilk.

I agree entirely in Jeremy's recommendation of THE NATION, save that
I don't regard as a "news magazine" so much as an opinion magazine.
Although THE NATION also publishes some excellent original reporting,
its mission is different from that of the newsweeklies.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact 
mnemonic@eff.org| of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, 
(617) 864-0665  | both are transformed."
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --Carl Jung
From: chrisc@sun.pcl.ac.uk (Chris Chamberlain)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re : Partick O'Brian vs Hornblower
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:52:02 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic of Central London


Well I'd just like to say that I didn't find Patrick O'Brian that bad. True
his style of writing is a little strange, but once I get into it I find it
quite good. In fact after finishing one of his books I usually want to go
straight on to the next. As for C.S.Forrester, when he's good he's very good,
but some of his Hornblower books are awful. Especially when Hornblower starts
to gain in rank. The Hornblower character becomes a real prat and I believe
even Forrester himself disliked the Hornblower character and only wrote the
later novels because people wanted him to.

Has any one any opinions on any of the other writers of historic naval fiction?
There's Alexander Kent (aka Douglas Reeman - I enjoyed his stuff as a kid, but
now I find it unreadable), Dudley Pope (the Ramage series - not very well
written) and Richard Woodman (the Nathaniel Drinkwater series - these are quite
good). Comments anyone?

Chris.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: guest@ad.cise.nsf.gov (OPA Guest)
Subject: Art History
Reply-To: guest@ad.cise.nsf.gov
Organization: National Science Foundation
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:49:24 GMT

Can someone tell me the word that is used to describe the history behind a  
specific work of art.  It usually refers to the artist or subsequent  
owners of a given work of art. I think it is a french word.
Please respond to Wspurloc@note.nsf.gov : this address is different from  
the one used to post this message.
Thanks, Bill Spurlock