From: vkb57@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: Somebody needs a lot of history lessons ...(was Re: The Balkan Dance of Death [Macedonia]
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 04:36:20 GMT

In article <7017@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.214505.14089@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org writes:
>>In article <7784@news.duke.edu> yavor@acpub.duke.edu (Yavor B. Parashkevov) writes:
>
>[deleted]
>
>>>>   MACEDONIA is a geographical entity (map provided), and it has
>>>>rarely been a peaceful place by dint of its strategic position.
>>>>It's where East met West, where Christianity met Islam and, more
>>>>recently, where communism met capitalism.
>>>>
>>>>   It was the heart of Alexander the Great's empire 2,300 years
>>>>ago. Christian Slavs settled there in the 6th century. They were
>>>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>When the Slavs settled there, they were barbaric. They were christened
>>                                                           ==========
>>>in the 9th century, when the Bulgarian king Boris accepted
>>>Christianity as the official religion of the country.
>>>
>>Bob Beale isn't a moron,  neither is he a historian.  He is a journalist who
>>did his job of understanding the basic issues around Macedonia remarkably
>>well.
>
>Bob Beale did not understand many of the issues "remarkably well" - even he
>has no idea at all, and Yavor proved this. A lot of history lessons are
>required for many others as well.

He wrote a 4.5 line paragraph on 2300 yers of Macedoniam history for a
wide-circulation Australian newspaper, half a world away,  in a long article
concerned strictly with the current political situation.  He packed as much
relevant historical information in that paragraph as humanely possible.
>
>>  Anyway,  if you insist on nitpicking,
>
>He does not - he showed significant mistakes made by Bob Beale and
>presented those mistakes.
He did not show any mistakes,  as I pointed out above;  he was trying to
nitpick with little success.
>
>>>>conquered by the Bulgars in the 7th century. The western part of
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>>Conquered is hardly the right word. When the Proto-Bulgars arrived at
>>
>>As we have already established,  you are not the man to quible about the
>>precise use of words.  Besides,  your stance is highly debatable.
>
>You can debate it if you wish, or if you have the knowledge and the
>sources. Otherwise this is an empty statement.
>
It is debatable,  and other, a little more reasonable than you,  people on the
net have agreed with that.  It isn't my job to hunt sources,  if Yavor and you
want to prove that what Beale said was misleading or wrong in the context he
said it you qoute readily available sources that show conclusively that Beale
statement was unreasonable.  And if you don't convince me,  the point is going
to remain debatable.  The last thing I intend to do is spend much time
convincing you that the Slavs in Bulgaria did not get renamed into Bulgars by
conquering the Bulgars.

>>>>the Macedo-Bulgarian Empire fell to Byzantine conquest in 1014, to
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>>First time I hear this name. No history book (an objective one, that
>>>is) ever mentions a Macedo-Bulgarian Empire. It's simply called
>>>Bulgaria. It did include part of the geographic Macedonia, and the
>>
>>It is usually called the Western Bulgarian Empire,
>
>It is not "usually" called so but it's SOMETIMES called like this to make

Well,  I am glad we agree that Yavor was wrong.  And you may have a point,
maybe I should have said sometimes,  wouldn't have changed the meaning of my
statement at all,  and you wouldn' have found a reason for nitpicking.

		  --<deleted>--

>>>Istambul, the Serbia and Greece took the opportunity to grab chunks of
>>>the Bulgarian-populated parts of Macedonia. The Second Balkan war
>>>broke out, Bulgaria lost, Sofia was occupied by Romanian troops, and
>>>Bulgarian-populated lands went to Serbia and Greece. Numerous
>>>population exchanges followed, attempting to adjust the population
>>
>>There has never been a population exchange involving the territory of the Republic
>>of Macedonia.
>
>There were no Serbs in Bulgaria to be exchanged with the Bulgarians in
>Macedonia. Very simple. However, there were a lot of Greeks in Bulgaria to
>be exchanged for the Bulgarians in Greece. That Bulgarians in Greece were
>more, and that Bulgarians in Greece remained but not vice-versa is another
>matter.
>
>>  You did not find the "several poulation exchanges followed" in any
>>history book,  not even a less-than-objective one.  You made it up.
>
>No he didn't. You made it up and it's most likely that you have no idea of

What did I make up.  I didn't even make a statement,  I just disputed his.
have you ever heard of a poulation exchange involving the territory of the
Republic of Macedonia.

>any event from that time, or the other option is that you present false
>statements, if you know the events from those years.  In case you don't
>know them, here is what you can start with:
>
>"The exchange of Minorities; Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey, Ladas, S. P.,
>The MacMillan Company, New York, 1932.
>
You better watch it with these 1932 references,  people will start confusing
you with  Mutlu and Co.  BTW,  you forgot to tell us what does this book state
on the subject we are discussing.

>A big book on the subject with no 'Macedonian' minority :-( (although this
>book has some controvercial parts).
>
>Can provide more sources, and sources in other languages if you like. Can

Anything you can provide in Macedonian I would be gratefull for.

>also provide statistics from the Legue of Nations from that time.
>
>Looking foreward for the sources of your knowledge/(lack of it) and proof of
>your words.
>
>
>>>distributions to the administrative borders. As a result the Bulgarian
>>>population in Macedonia greatly decreased. The few that remained were
>>>convinced by the Serbs that they are a separate nation - Macedonians.
>> ======================
>>
>>You are in dire need of history lessons.  That is the last thing on earth the
>>Serbs would have done
>
>No - he is not. You are in such dire need. And this was exactly what the
>Serbs did (I don't "blame" them - the Austrians made them presue this
>policy). The earlier you learn the history facts and get rid of the
>fiction, the better.
>
The Austrians, huh.  Well,  I am glad we are keeping this in focus.  Can you
comprehend that the world does not revolve around Bulgarian history, and that
for many Serbs it does not make any difference whether Macedonia is
Macedonian,  Bulgarian,  Albanian,  or Greek.  well,  I better stop here.

As for learning history,  it would have been a good thing if you did it before
you made your mind up.  Now,  its probably counterproductive.

>>>Yavor Parashkevov
>>Vasil Babamov
>Luben >
Vasil
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