HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: phfrom@nyx.uni-konstanz.de (Hartmut Frommert)
Subject: Re: Support Lunar Resource Mapper Too!  Re: Manned/Unmanned
Organization: Dept. of Physics, University of Constance
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:54:38 GMT

Please, allow some comments from afar...

seds%cspar@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes:

[...]

>Support Lunar Resource Mapper as well if you
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i'll abbrev him to LRM
>truly want to support unmanned space flight. Write your Congress critter
>or call or fax to support that in the 93 budget. It is a low cost planetary
>probe that will do much to increase our knowledge of our nearest planetary
>body. Do you know that after Mars Observer's mission is over, that we will 
>know more about Mars and Venus than about the Moon! That is tragic and
>must be corrected.

[...]

Very true that Lunar research suffered in the past, which should be improved.
So I'd like the LRM to be supported, it's important for planetary science.

On the other hand, that our knowledge on the Moon needs improvement, and,
therefore, LRM, should in *NO* way mislead anybody to think that we know 
*ALL* interesting things (or even too much) on Mars and/or Venus. So also a 
successor of Magellan, as well as Mars Observer (and LRM) should be taken 
into consideration. 

Also you should keep in mind that on longer terms there will either be manned
AND unmanned spaceflight or nothing but some commercial (and perhaps 
military) sat's. In the non-scientific public (or, partially, even the 
non-space scientific), people are PRO or CONTRA spaceflight as a whole,
as far as funded by public (assumed from observations here in Germany). 
The anti-space party likes to profit from a manned-unmanned discussion:
as public funds decrease, both manned and unmanned space projects suffer,
which we just see concerning the ESA projects. So I urge everybody to
support *first* an increasing of space budget *as a whole*.

--
 Hartmut Frommert, LS Dehnen, Physics, | E-Mail: <phfrom@dknkurz1.bitnet>
 Univ of Constance, P.O.Box 55 60,     |     or  <phfrom@nyx.uni-konstanz.de>
 D-W-7750 Constance, Germany  | + SAVE THE WHALES ! BOYCOTT NORWAY !        +
 Phone: +49-(0)7531-88-3747   | + Whales R intelligent. Whale killers not.  +
+ Whale killing is murder. Eating whales is cannibalism. Eat whale killers. +
From: dmitry@conan.UUCP (Dmitry Gringauz)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Star Trek and public perception of space/science/engineering
Summary: Terraforming and the Supreme Soviet
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:26:55 GMT

In article <pgf.711672356@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>, pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
> I know I'm not the only one who has noticed that bioengineering and
> genetic engineering has always been presented negatively, in
> _both_ Star Trek series... Hell, if anyone ever starts a terraforming
> project somewhere, you know some Professional Idiot over in Congress
> or Parlaiment or the Diet or the Supreme Soviet is going to stand up
> and say "But how do we know there isn't some life there we can't even
> begin to imagine, like that episode of Star Trek?"
This probably belongs in one of the talk.politics groups, but as long as
you mention Supreme Soviet, I might as well say my opinion.  Those guys
(pre-august coup) have, in fact been engaged in large-scale terraforming
(or desert- or swamp-forming) for the past 70 years, without any regard
for any lifeforms that were present in the terraforming areas.  I can site
a lot of examples, starting from huge water reservouirs build in Central
Asia with the help of "peaceful" nuclear explosion, and ending with almost
completely stopping the water flow in Volga and Neva rivers -- the former due
to excessive construction of hydra-power generating plants, the latter
due to the construction of the controversial damb that was suppose to
protect St. Petersburg from once-in-a-century floods.

Same goes for bioengineering.  Rumor had it for quiet some time that the
soviet biowarfare engineers have developed strains of plague that can
affect people of only one gender (male, of course), and of a certain age
(18-55 usually).  The evidence to that is an outbreak of plague in one
of the cities in Urals.  Out of 30-some victims of the 
outbreak, there was only one female, the rest were male ages 20-50 (approx.
range).

So there is nothing really new or amoral about bioengineering and terraforming
over the existing life forms.  It has been done before, it will be done
again.

> 
> Pessemistically Yours,
> 
> Phil

Just as pessimistic,

Dmitry

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: phfrom@nyx.uni-konstanz.de (Hartmut Frommert)
Subject: Galileo found intelligent life? (was Re: Whale killing ..)
Keywords: Whales, whale killing
Organization: Dept. of Physics, University of Constance
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:37:35 GMT

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

[discussion of intelligence deleted]

>>(As I see, spacecraft Galileo found *NO*
>>evidence for the existence of intelligent life on the surface of Earth).

>Wrong.

I read it in a newspaper that Galileo found *NO* evidence ...
Since Ken complains, I ask the space audience:

*  Did Galileo find evidence for the existence of intelligent life on the
   surface of Earth during its fly-by ? 

   (I could imagine city lights at night, or Chinese wall...)
--
 Hartmut Frommert, LS Dehnen, Physics, | E-Mail: <phfrom@dknkurz1.bitnet>
 Univ of Constance, P.O.Box 55 60,     |     or  <phfrom@nyx.uni-konstanz.de>
 D-W-7750 Constance, Germany  | + SAVE THE WHALES ! BOYCOTT NORWAY !        +
 Phone: +49-(0)7531-88-3747   | + Whales R intelligent. Whale killers not.  +
+ Whale killing is murder. Eating whales is cannibalism. Eat whale killers. +
Xref: sparky sci.space:10570 sci.astro:8168 alt.alien.visitors:4638 alt.paranormal:1894
From: rtravsky@news.uwyo.edu (Rich Travsky)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Whales (SETI)
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:16:50 GMT
Organization: Banzai Institute

In article <1992Jul26.074242.15799@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp 
   (Gary Coffman) writes:
> Counting systems developed among humans because of the needs of herdsmen
> to keep track of their flocks. Plane geometry developed as agriculturalists
> needed to measure their fields. Number theory and higher forms of geometry
> developed as an *intellectual* exercise among natural philosphers of the
> ancient world. One, two, many was sufficient for subsistence gatherers and
> nomad hunters too busy surviving to develop natural philosphy.
> 
> While whales don't usually herd their prey, [...]
They also don't have fields. A whale lifestyle could then be said to resemble 
a hunting/gathering existence. Another anthropological tidbit is that such 
cultures (hunting/gathering) actually spend/spent less time securing their
daily needs than more advanced cultures (using the term "advanced" in a loose
sense). They actually have a large amount of free time available...

> enemies (except man) and should have sufficient leisure time to develop
> a natural philosphy. I'd expect that their three dimensional environment
> would lead to geometric insights, and their podding behavior would lead
> to counting. From there, the leap to analytic geometry and prime ratios
> should be the logical next step. Any creature that doesn't grasp mathematics
> can't be said to be intelligent.
>
Birds live in a three dimensional environment; does the above progression
apply to them as well? (So far, only Alfred Hitchcock has seen the untapped
potential of our feathered friends... ;)

BTW, why would "podding" lead to counting?

One advantage of the ancients is that they had recourse to being able to
draw/write down their thoughts on these weighty matters. To be able to 
pursue such pastimes in one's head (be you whale or human) is quite a feat,
and still more so to pass it to other generations. Whales do not have
writing materials. Or at least not that we've observed. I think this explains
why beaching occurs. They are wanting to make geometric drawings in the
beach sand. To test this assumption, the ground around the next beached
whale must be carefully observed. Usually gawkers and passers by have
trampled the surrounding sand, obliterating their scribbles. This must be
prevented. A helicopter flyby would be nice to take in the whole area
around the whale...

Richard Travsky       "So long, and thanks for all the fish!"
Division of Information Technology     RTRAVSKY @ CORRAL.UWYO.EDU
University of Wyoming                  (307) 766 - 3663 / 3668
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: bd@fluent@dartmouth.EDU (Brice Dowaliby)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.aeronautics
Subject: Re: NASP, NLS, SSTO, etc.
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:22:20 GMT
Reply-To: bd%fluent@dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Fluent Inc., Lebanon NH


In article <BR1ioB1w164w@netlink.cts.com> jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery) writes:

>I'm disappointed in Clinton.  I thought he was just a national socialist.
>I didn't realize he had gone all the way to being a communist.

I'm a little confused...

Clinton plans to cut a bunch of public money for NASP, SSTO, and "a few
other launch systems" and this makes him a commie?  Jim, I'd love to hear 
your line of reasoning.  Reagan's defense build-up was the largest 
welfare program in history!

I'm not saying I support Clinton's position (haven't read enough about it
to know) but I am curious as to how cutting public spending makes one
a communist.

-- 
    Brice Dowaliby         |    I may speak fluently, but 
(bd%fluent@dartmouth.edu)  |    I don't speak for Fluent
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro
From: schroede@bnlux1.bnl.gov (gary l. schroeder)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Realism
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:39:28 GMT

In article <9207280200.AA24681@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov> roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes:
>
>-From: 18084TM@msu.edu (tom)
>-Subject: Star Trek Realism
>-Date: 27 Jul 92 16:47:03 GMT
>
>-As long as we're on the Star-Trek vs. reality thread, here's a question
>-that used to come up before my housemate Doug said "Shut up and just watch
>-the show!":   When the ship is streaming through space, stars moving past
>-at several per second, how is it that the ship is steadily lit from one
>-side?  What is the source for this light?  It's pretty bad when you aren't
>-even into the actual show, and it's already violating known principles :-)
>

As for the stars streaking by...I never really assumed that they were
stars.  Could they be some optical phenomena of FTL travel?  Remember
the same effect seen when the Millenium Falcon was in "hyperdrive"?
Were those things necessarily stars?

As for the point about where is the source of illumination come
from...yeah, I've thought about that one too.  That's about when I "shut
up and just watch the show!"


-- 
--------------
Gary Schroeder		
schroede@bnlux1.bnl.gov 
Brookhaven National Laboratory     "Home of the Big BNL Burger."	
Newsgroups: sci.space,alt.folklore.urban
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Calendar and Zodiac
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:10:07 GMT

In article <9207291235.AA05080@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov> roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes:
>In the British Empire, the month of September, 1752 lost 11 days (the day
>after September 2 was September 14). It was the renters who complained,
>because they had to pay a full month's rent.
>
>The months themselves have been around for thousands of years.

OK.  I've had it.  Could someone in alt.folklore.urban please clear this up?

The way I've usually heard this is as a "rebuttal" to the notion of
superstitious peasants who felt that they lost 11 days out of their life
because of the calendar change; the explanation, you see, is that they were
upset about having to pay the extra 11 days rent, so they weren't acting on
superstition at all.

But even this seems rather suspicious to me.  It implies a bit too much of a
lack of common sense on the part of landlords.  Does anyone know if this is
what _really_ happened?
--
Hi! Ani mutacia shel virus .signature. Ha`atek oti letoch .signature shelcha!

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: Antimatter (was propulsion questions)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 19:59:34 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<24661@dog.ee.lbl.gov> <1992Jul17.221155.25364@bradley.bradley.edu>
	<BrLvxL.6w8@zoo.toronto.edu> <rmartin.711734621@yosemite>
Originator: nickh@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <rmartin.711734621@yosemite> rmartin@yosemite.Rational.COM (Bob Martin) writes:

   [antimatter]

   Actually, I wonder if even the moon would be a safe place to
   concentrate a few hundred kilograms of the stuff.  Maybe the
   farside...  I think I would prefer Mars.

Well if you _must_ use some planetary body, the far side of the moon
is just fine. 100kg of anti-matter will only yield a 4 gigaton
explosion (assuming it's reactive enough to all go boom at once).
Sure, you'll leave a pretty big crater, but it's not going to shift
the moon or anything.

Nick
From: PHARABOD@FRCPN11.IN2P3.FR
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: U.S. Black Programs
Date: 22 Jul 92 10:33:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Jul22.103501.162201
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

On 22 Jul 92 07:16:34 GMT Andrew Palfreyman asked:

>Please would you indicate the location of this "Antelope Valley"
>location?

Antelope Valley, California, 34.45 N 118.20 W, next to Edwards A.F.B.

J. Pharabod
From: games@max.u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Clinton Space Position- or Henry go home
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:17:53 GMT
Distribution: usa,world

In article <1992Jul28.143654.17945@walter.bellcore.com>, ddavey@iscp.bellcore.com (Doug Davey) writes:
> Henry, your technical postings are probably the best things in sci.space.*.
> However, I would respectfully ask that those who neither pay the taxes
> nor vote in the elections kindly refrain from posting politcal analyses
> of political statements from the USAian election campaign.  If you have a
> technical reason why something a candidate proposes is a good or bad idea,
> fine.  However, a cross border political analysis is rude at best.  Thanks.
> Stop Canadian Imperialism!  Yankee Go Home! :-)

>   Doug Davey        ddavey@iscp.bellcore.com         bcr!iscp!ddavey


I Quite disagree.  Since the U.S. is at present in one of the preeminent
positions in space technology, whatever we do affects the entire world.  What
we choose to do, and wht we choose not to do helps set the tone for the entire
world.  This means that everybody to a certain extent is going to be affected
(in space related areas a well as others) by the up coming election.

As an affected party, Mr. Spencer certainly has the right to comment upon
the platforms proposed by the parties.

And if you don't like the above logic, then as an "expert" commentator in the
field, he has not only the right, but the duty to comment upon the platforms,
in order to help clarify what they mean for the rest of us who choose not to
take quite as much time deciphering the reading between the lines.

The fact that someone happens to live in another country neither adds nor
subtracts from the 'truth' of thier observations.

			John.
From: bobt@pogo.wv.tek.com (Bob Tidrick)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Star Trek and public perception of space/science/engineering
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:37:26 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

In article <1992Jul23.174448.18038@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bmartino@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob Martino) writes:

>     unless someone is first willing to define "life", this
>discussion borders on meaningless.  Now don't look at me, I
>wouldn't begin to even try to formulate such a definition.

Could it not be something as simple as "A combination of chemical bonds
capable of replicating itself."? Basicly that is what DNA is. Who knows what
else is capable of this. Did you ever see "The Andromida Strain"? If it can't
reproduce itself eventually it will physicaly cease to exist.

If anything was found on Mars that exibited this property I would say "leave
it alone!" We have no business disturbing something which may one day evolve
into a more complex form. However if nothing is found than it is a mear rock
and we have dibs.
-- 
                                                Bob Tidrick
                                                GPID Engineering
                                                Tektronix Inc.
                                                Wilsonville OR.
From: amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Radiative heat loss
Date: 27 Jul 92 11:49:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Jul27.115059.169181
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

> The *square*? Please double-check.
> 

> John Roberts
> roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov
> 


John is right. It is a T^3 factor.
Xref: sparky sci.space:10996 sci.astro:8500
From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro
Subject: Magellan Update - 07/30/92
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
Date: 31 Jul 92 02:58:15 GMT
Reply-To: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

Forwarded from the Magellan Project

                       MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                          July 30, 1992

1.  Magellan continues to operate under the M2206 command
    sequence, which consists of only starcals (star
    calibrations) and desats (desaturations of the reaction
    wheels).  No radar mapping is being performed.

2.  Yesterday spacecraft controllers repeated the power cycle
    test of Transmitter B.  This mode replicated the
    conditions experienced by the transmitter when is was
    first used in January.  At that time the performance was
    perfect until the temperature reached 30 degrees C, then was
    affected by the signal spur.

3.  During this week's tests, however, the spur appeared
    immediately at turn on, drawing power from the carrier and
    preventing the DSN (Deep Space Network) station from locking
    onto the signal.  This appears to rule out this mode of
    operation for mapping in September.

4.  Transmitter B has been left on and is being allowed to
    continue warming as the telecommunications engineers watch
    for a stable regime for transmitting data.  During the
    period following Superior Conjunction in June, science
    data was being received at 115 kbps with the transmitter
    at 57 degrees C.  Transmitter B is presently at 42.9
    degrees C.

5.  This effort is directed at filling  the only significant
    gap in Magellan's global coverage of Venus, a 10-day
    mapping segment at the end of the cycle.  The prime
    mission goal of obtaining global gravity coverage between
    September 1992 and May 1993 is not affected by the
    transmitter problem because only the X-band carrier signal
    is required.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Most of the things you 
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | worry about will never
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | happen.
From: roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Delta
Date: 26 Jul 92 13:55:42 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology
	formerly National Bureau of Standards


I recorded the Geotail launch on NASA Select on Friday - very impressive.
I'd never seen a Delta II daytime launch before - it's interesting how the
solid rocket boosters "flip off" rather than slowly separate like the 
Shuttle SRBs. Performance of the launcher was apparently even better than
had been expected.

One thing I noticed - the SRB nozzles are angled outward, presumably to
reduce interference with the main engines. As a result, the flame diverges
very widely behind the rocket, even near sea level pressure, such that the
flame is double the width of the rocket only a short distance behind it,
perhaps 10-20 feet.

There have been proposals for a heavylift Delta, which as I gather is 
essentially a whole batch of Delta rockets (complete with boosters)
strapped together. Given the wide divergence of the flame, how are the
flames of the multiple Deltas to be prevented from interfering with one
another (for instance setting up instabilities in the combustion)? And
given the way the SRBs detach, how are the ones "inside" the cluster of
deltas going to be assured clearance so that they avoid hitting the
structure? (I have a mental image of a huge latticework like the dome of
the Astrodome, imbedded with widely-spaced Deltas, rising up into the sky. :-)

Are these considered solved problems, or is that what the proposed development
funding would be for?

The flight commentary also mentioned that this launch was the last to use
this specific configuration, which has a perfect operational record. Anybody
know what configuration is to be used in the future? (Allen, I'm hoping
you know something about this. :-)

John Roberts
roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: slndw@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: when is the moon?
Date: 31 Jul 92 11:02:45 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

Howdy.

I have another simple (maybe) question.

Anybody know when the moon rises/sets during
the next two weeks??



---thanks

Mark Taratoot   DoD#3323
Watershed Science Unit
Dept. of Forest Resources
Utah State University
Logan, Utah  84322-5215

SLNDW@cc.usu.edu


Xref: sparky sci.space:10972 sci.astro:8476
From: slb@slced1.nswses.navy.mil (Shari L Brooks)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro
Subject: Re: Answers to PLANES of the ecliptic question
Summary: A new question
Keywords: Precession, ecliptic
Date: 30 Jul 92 01:45:08 GMT
Organization: Naval Satellite Operations Center, Point Mugu, CA, USA

In article <l6p7qgINN9uc@pollux.usc.edu> srobiner@pollux.usc.edu 
(Steven Robiner) writes:
>Thanks to all who responded to my question about the solar
>system's plane of ecliptic relative to the galaxies. Almost
>everyone who responded agreed that the number was about
>60 degress.  The rest of the details were most consisely
>summed up by the following to respondents.

>Thanks agian to all who responded.

>=steve=

[...first reply and most of the second (from Bill Gawne, STSI) deleted...]

>Roughly, its a 63 degree tilt.  Yes, this changes as the sun orbits
>the galactic center.  The solar motion is not simply circular, it also
>moves up and down thru the disk of the galaxy.  Look at an introductory
>astronomy book for the period of the sun's orbit about the GC.

I am aware that the sun orbits the galactic center, and also oscillates
about the center of the galactic plane.  This has made me think, though,
does the plane of the ecliptic precess?  We have, on a planetary scale,
the Earth rotational axis precessing every 26K years; does the plane
of the solar system do thie also?  

What would we measure this precession against, in order to distinguish it
from the revolution about the galactic center, and oscillation about the 
galactic plane?

--
  Shari L Brooks                   |   slb%suned1.nswses.navy.mil@nosc.mil
  NAVSOC code NSOC323D             |   shari@caspar.nosc.mil
  NAWS Pt Mugu, CA 93042-5013      |   
--> All statements/opinions above are mine and mine only, not the US Navy's.