HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christmas on the 25th/Pagan origins
Date: 16 Dec 92 07:12:19 GMT
Organization: UW Computing

Rather than complain about the mixing of Christian and pagan, try
translating "pagan" as "human" ... as finite humans we have to
translate the infinite (God/Christianity) into the finite, into the
familar ... this necessity is analysized as Christian/pagan mix
From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Vernard Eller, Jaques Ellul, Will Campbell...
Date: 13 Dec 92 04:51:58 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington

Anyone familiar with the spiritual views of these folk?

Very curious about Eller. He's out at the Univ. of La Verne
near Los Angeles as best I know.

I'm just starting to look into non-institutional-faith
and will be happy to compare and contrast their works 
as my studies develop.

Please tell what you know.

(Beyond the fact of course that their names all have `ell'
 in them. ;-)

   |
-- J --
   |      Stephen D. Tice
   |      Arlington Texas
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christmas on the 25th.  Why? (was Re: Messianic Jews and Christmas)
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:20:01 GMT
Organization: none

In article <Dec.12.23.51.43.1992.614@geneva.rutgers.edu> allegra!lieuwen@allegra.att.com (Dan Lieuwen) writes:

   According to Conarias' Introduction to the Orthodox Church, the dating
   for Christmas and the dating for the feast day of John the Baptist are
   related.

There was recently a good article on the true date of Christ's birth
in a Catholic magazine I get.  Very early writers, like the Fathers of
the Church, are for December 25th, interestingly enough.

Regarding St. John the Baptist, here is an interesting bit of trivia
you can amaze your friends with.

Do you know where the familiar names of the notes in the scale (do,
re, mi, fa, etc.) came from?  They came from a hymn in the Catholic
liturgy for the feast of St. John the Baptist.  Each succeeding stanza
of this hymn begins one note higher on the scale.  The names of the
notes are the first syllables of the stanzas.
From: pasward@maytag.uwaterloo.ca (Paul A.S. Ward)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Trinity
Date: 13 Dec 92 05:17:32 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <Dec.11.01.38.54.1992.12542@athos.rutgers.edu> af664@yfn.ysu.edu (Frank DeCenso, Jr.) writes:

>     1. Hebrew word for "God" is 'elohim' (occurs 2700 times)
>
>         - a plural noun always joined to singular verbs

Umm, that's actually rather weak evidence.  Other Hebrew words also have
a plural ending, but are clearly singular.  The example that comes to mind
is 'panim' which means 'face'.  Similar occurances are found in other
languages; eg.  sheep, or fish in English.

Elohim is more a case of reasoning retroactively from the doctrine to the word.
From: jfc@nic.cerf.net (Co Ho)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: summary of reasons why Christians might accept homosexuality
Date: 21 Dec 92 00:15:52 GMT
Organization: CERFnet

In article <Dec.9.00.57.51.1992.7526@geneva.rutgers.edu> chuck@fourier.ssd.kodak.com (Charles S. Collins 726-9461) writes:
>Paraphrasing from Matthew:
>
>And they said to Christ, "Lord, when did we see you suffering and fail to 
>assist you?  And when did we see you despised and rejected and fail to
>comfort you?"
>
>And Christ answered, "When you failed to do it to the least of these people,
>you failed to do it to me."

	I think you quoted out of context right here - the context of
	Mat. 25 is dealing with our responsiblities toward social-injustice
	(the homeless, the poors and prisonners...) and it has nothing to
	do with the topic of "drives anyone from Christ's church"
>
>If the price of the church's "purity" is the soul of one person, I think
>I know what Christ's response would be.  The "obedient Christian" who
>drives anyone from Christ's church for any reason is breaking Christ's
>heart.  It would be better for him to tie a millstone around his neck
>and be drowned in the sea.

	The last sentence was also being quoted out of context.  
	Mark 9:42 (in context of 33-50) was talking about do not causing
	sin for innocent believers.  The irony is in the next verses,
	Jesus said "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.  It is
	better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go
	to hell..."

	It would not break His heart to see one stops going to Church,
	but it would break His heart to see one drifts away from Him.

----
"...and in the saddest part of Heaven's rooms, our Father sheds a tear for
you, He's missing you too..."
					Michael W. Smith (I miss the way)

-- 
Co Ho  - FJC Software Development | "..is there a vision that I can call my
321 E. Chapman Fullerton CA 92632 | own? Feel like I'm looking for a reason
(714) 992-7274 BBS:(714) 992-7754 | -roaming through the night-  to find my
Alt.Addr=xcho@ccvax.fullerton.edu | place in this world.."   MichaelW.Smith
From: pauley@tai.jkj.sii.co.jp (Martin Pauley(student))
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christmas on the 25th.  Why?
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:19:05 GMT

Scott Hayes (scotth@cs.umr.edu) writes:
>I've been told that the December 25 date comes from synchrotizing
>a pagan holiday celebrating Nimrod's birthday.  Can anyone verify this?

It's not really verifiable, but here's the basic story:
Shortly after Nimrod died (I think he was assassinated) his wife had a
son who she claimed was Nimrod reincarnated and the Sun god.  She
claimed that she was the Moon godess.  People believed her (maybe
because she was Queen and would kill them if they didn't believe!).
The time of Christmas (winter solstice) is when the sun could be
described as "dying then returning to life" and, as such, was a major
event in sun-worship.  This festival exists independantly of Nimrod but
his wife connected them very successfully.

On the subject of X in Xian and Xmas, which I brought up, Our Favourite
Moderator writes:
>[X seems to have different implications to different people.  I'm
>known several ministers who use X (chi) for Christ because it's the
>first letter of Christ in Greek.  See e.g. the well-known chi rho
>symbol.  Perhaps this is more meaningful to people who are used to
>reading the Gospel in Greek.  It also reminds some people of the
>cross, something that should always be closely associated with Christ.
>--clh]

I understand that: I read the Greek New Testament (I've a copy here,
beside me).  How many people who have not studied Greek would understand
it though?  It's not vitally improtant, just a personal 'niggle' as I
called it.  I am just concerned that the "Christ" will drop out of the
words we use, only to be recognised by the well informed.

Having said that, it is more important that we keep Christ visible in
our lives rather than in our words.

in Christ,
.Marty.!
<pauley@tai.jkj.sii.co.jp>
From: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Preaching to the Moderns
Date: 13 Dec 92 04:52:52 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA

Michael Siemon wonders why the belief in the virgin birth is
important.  To him, it is quite irrelevant, and he is cautious about
peoples' reasons.

Charley points out that the phrase "born of the Virgin Mary" was
intended to underscore Christ's humanity, which was under far more
fire than his divinity at the time.  Moreover, appealing to the virgin
birth to prove Christ's divinity slights the Resurrection, which, as
OFM points out, is what Paul cites as the principal reason for belief
in Christ.

I understand most of the traditional reasons for the importance of the
virgin birth, but, like Micheal Siemen, I agree that they are mainly
alien to my experience.  But here is one way of capturing that phrase
of the creed without crossed fingers.

I take the phrase "born of the Virgin Mary" as an affirmation of the
miraculous.  It is all to easy to find in the Resurrection no
*visible* miracle.  Many authors of many different Christian faiths
have presented a real faith in the Resurrection, without quite
identifying it as something visible to the non-believer.  It looks, in
their treatment, very much as the Catholic (Roman and non) doctrine of
the presence of Christ in the Eucharist: it's miraculous, but, no,
it's not *visible* as a miracle to the non-believer.

But the virgin birth *is* so visible.  Unlike the Resurrection, it is
virtually impossible to "spiritualize away" the virgin birth.  I think
a healthy respect for the visibly miraculous is necessary, and its
disregard is one of the more common heresies in the Church today.
So, when I say "born of the Virgin Mary", that's one of the things I
think of, which makes it present and relevant to me today.

--
Michael I. Bushnell      |     Watch, for you do not know when the master of 
+1 617 625 4518 (H)     -+-    the house will come, in the evening, or at
+1 617 253 8568 (W)      |     midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning, 
mib@gnu.ai.mit.edu       |     lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Family Dilemma, RC/Prot diffs
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:08:57 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <Dec.12.23.57.02.1992.680@geneva.rutgers.edu> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
>>1) How can my daughter be born with sin?
>
>   Because of the sin of Adam and Eve, the nature of all humans, while
>basically good, has become damaged, thus making them suspectible to
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
>sin.

   Oops, I accidentally transposed two letters in that word.  It
should actually have read "susceptible."  Hope it didn't cause any
confusion.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: dsegard@nyx.cs.du.edu (Daniel Segard)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: WHY JEWS RESENT PROSELYTIZING
Date: 16 Dec 92 06:41:47 GMT
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.


 jspence@cmptrc.lonestar.org (John Spence) writes in article
<Dec.15.04.21.23.1992.5132@geneva.rutgers.edu>

 > Really, Mark, it was nice of you to say all this, but just what
 > is your agenda? If all this is "doomed" to failure, then why are
 > there many Jews converting to Christianity? (and I'll admit that
 > there are many Christians converting to Judaism).

      There is a problem with your wording here.  You say that "there are
many Jews converting to Christianity".  The implication here is obviously
that in doing so they have turned away from the Scripture of Judaism and
from what the Prophets of Judaism had taught and "converted" to some sort
of pagan (ie unbiblical) religion.   No doubt Mr Kaufman would be in full
agreement with such wording.
      However, I don't believe such wording is in full agreement with what
your own NT teaches.  The word which your KJV has translated as "convert"
actually doesn't mean "convert" in the modern meaning of the word.  Rather
a better translation would be "turn back", "repent", or in Hebrew
TESHUVAH.  So with this reading it would be understood that the teaching
was originally not a msg of turning Jews aside from the teachings of Torah
and the Prophets of Judaism.  Rather they were being told to "turn back"
to the L-RD and follow Him.  (Through His Messiah.)
      Now coming from the perspective of Messianic Judaism (which appeared
to have been the main thrust of Mr Kaufman's comments) the claim that
followers of Yeshua are "doomed to failure" may or may not be correct. 
Time will reveal just how "doomed" we are when Messiah comes.  But
naturally we stand against Jews "converting" away from Torah, the Prophets
of Judaism, or anything of the sort.  It would be our view that following
Yeshua as the Messiah ben Yoseph predicted by the Prophets of Judaism does
not mean that the person has somehow "rejected", "turned their back on" or
otherwise "converted" away from Judaism.   But such discussions might be
better carried out on alt.messianic where such discussions go on daily.

c
From: doel@bae.bellcore.com (Michael Doel)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Virgin Birth
Date: 16 Dec 92 06:40:40 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research

Paul Ward writes:

> It need not be labeled, one can tell by form (as in the example of the
> Psalms outside of the book of Psalms).  However, when we read, for
> example, the first three chapters of Luke, it is either clear that we are
> reading history (take out the virgin birth aspect, and no one would argue
> about it being history; it is only this aspect that causes questions), or
> we have no capability of telling any of Luke as history or fiction.

Regarding the debate as to whether the Biblical accounts of Christ's birth
are historical or merely metaphorical, you might be interested in the
current issue of U.S. News and World Report.  The cover story this week,
entitled "The First Noel", is a discussion of this very issue.  While it
certainly doesn't settle the argument, it is an interesting article which
lets you know what some of the "experts" think.



Note, I quote experts above not to belittle their research or knowledge, but
rather to reflect my opinion that whether or not the Bible is completely
historical on the matter of Christ's birth isn't as important as the
theological implications of the birth itself.


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Doel				<doel@bae.bellcore.com>
444 Hoes Lane RRC 1B-209
Piscataway, NJ 08854

"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat
 and wrong." - H.L. Mencken
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: IK20050@maine.maine.edu (World Leader)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Prayer Request
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:11:50 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System

Please pray for me, I have gotten to the point in my life where
I can't take this anymore and I am starting to wish I would just
die....I hurt so bad....and nothing helps....I'm trusting in
Jesus....He's my only hope right now....I would genuinely
appreciate your prayers....

In Christ,
Andie.
From: stangem@columbia.dsu.edu (Michele Stange)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Brian and I
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:41:12 GMT
Organization: Dakota State University

Hello everyone,

I want to thank all of you that responded to my inquiry about Brian (that 
would be the agnostic agnostic turned liberal Christian) and I (the 
fundamental Christian).  The response has been overwhelming and I am deeply 
appreciative to all of you.

When you're right in the middle of something, it's hard to see all of the 
different facets, and all of your responses have helped me to analyze this 
situation from multiple perspectives.  I should tell you that Brian and I 
are not planning on getting married until Spring 1994 so that does give us 
quite a bit of time to do some serious soul-searching.  Right now, my intent 
is to marry him.  I'm not saying that that won't change, though.  We'll 
leave it up to the Lord and do a lot of praying.  Thanks to all of you who 
have kept us in your prayers.

Don't be alarmed if you don't hear from me again.  I am graduating from 
college this month (Yikes!) and won't have access to the university's 
computer system.  So please don't think that I have abandoned you.  I'm 
still out there somewhere.

Thanks again,
Merry Christmas to you and yours,
Michele
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: no title given
Date: 16 Dec 92 07:12:02 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

If you read any of the current work of narrative theologians (e.g.
John Shea) or pychologist's concerned with meaning (Actual Minds,
Possible Worls), you would not assume the (positivist) position that
narrative ("fiction") is not at times the appropriate vehicle for
communicating truth.
From: jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mary and the Moderns
Date: 20 Dec 92 23:06:09 GMT

We have been discussing the Virgin Birth and its importance, if any.

Someone asked what difference this doctrine makes to our beliefs, and
many answerers more-or-less said, "None at all -- it may be true, but
in any case it's unimportant."  Which leads me to think that we've
been putting the question wrong.

I love theology, no question.  But I love Jesus first, and far more.
We should perhaps treat theological questions (sometimes) with our
hearts as well as our minds.  We've been asking intellectual questions
about the abstract importance of Mary's virginity, but not letting our
hearts get involved in any of the answers.

Picture the stable at Bethlehem.  There, "wrapped in swaddling clothes
and lying in a manger" is the eternal Word of God, the desire of ages --
humility unparalleled, justice rained down from heaven, mercy enfleshed.
And around him in the quiet darkness, along with the animals (and unseen
choirs of angels), his so-young mother and her half-understanding but
faithful husband.  Just look for a minute, and let thinking rest.

Now, I would suggest that if, with that scene before you, you can't
discern that the lady's maidenhood matters, if her virginity isn't a
mystery and a rebuke and a glory that stuns your heart, you had better
leave off theology for a while and concentrate on prayer.

In Jesus,

Fr. John Woolley  (jww@evolving.com)
From: lgp7q@virginia.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There is no god
Date: 20 Dec 92 23:24:17 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

If you would allow me to enter into this fascinating
discussion, I might help shed some lights as to the impossible
task of your discussion. As a theology almost Ph.D. and a
Christian, I must say that God does not exist....pretty
shocking, huh? This does not mean that there is no God, just
that it is impossible to prove one way or the other. If God
were to exist, God would be a being amongst other beings, but
the definition of God is that God is the creator of all finite
being, this would imply that God is not a "being" but rather,
that God is the ground of all beings. If anyone could prove the
"existance" of God, or even have a definite knowledge of God,
then he or she would have imposed a limit on God implying that
God is a finite limited being, which goes contrary to any
definition of God, since God is said to be infinite. Now,
according to Emmanuel Kant there are three ideas that cannot be
known, they are the Self, the World, and God. You can never
truly see your "self" because the one looking is the self, and
once you try to see or reflect upon the self you are already
not there, since now you are the one reflecting...you cannot
know the World (Universe as a whole) because you are part of it
and can't step out to look. (and if you did, then you as part
of the world cannot be in it and it would not be the world).
Finally, God as the source of both of these things, could not
be known either. So what does that leave us with? Faith. No one
can disprove God either for the same reasons. All we can know
of God is the limited knowledge that God would let us know
(which is not all there is to know) This is, for Christians,
found in the Bible, and in God's appearance in our midst as
Christ. Now can anybody disprove that someone who has an
encounter with God as living and transforming power is wrong?
No. You either believe them, or not. The best proof is the
difference God makes in a persons life...even if it is not an
objective proof. Finally, about evil....two reasons can be
given for the existance of evil, one stems from human
freedom...since we are free, we are free to hurt others, even
if eventually we pay consequences. Second, there are bad things
that happen (ie, diseace, earthquakes, etc). That is harder to
explain, but God said that the World was good not perfect, and
maybe if we knew more about the world, we could prevent some
things..and besides, who says that death is necessarily bad? If
there was no death the world would be overcrowded and people
would truly suffer through starvation and illnesses, and for us
who believe in an afterlife...well, death is not too much of a
problem, and suffering does not last forever...it just makes us
stronger. Wish I could give you all the details, but I don't
want to take more space. Drop me a line if you have any
questions. (This argument is by far not the most elaborate one
I can make.)
Luis
U.Va.
From: phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: New Life
Date: 14 Dec 92 05:05:49 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha


 I have found something that could be beneficial to everybody.
A program offered by my church called NEWLIFE. It is a Biblically
based program for Dysfunctional adults(which is everybody who is over
13!!)
It has weekly lessons I think the net could use.
I would like our Hosts(Hedrick,christian) to comment on whether it
would be good to post these weekly. If the message is "no" then
I could organize it into an e-mail format and send it out to those
who ask.
It helps us to understand why we do some things and how to open these
areas up to Jesus and do better than those who helped cause our hurts.


-- 
 MR Shannon Saltzman
 "Is doggie heaven kitty hell?" Stephanie phoenix(age 6)
 "How does teflon stick to a skillet when nothing sticks to teflon?"
 The words of Mike Warnke.

[I'd have to see it in order to comment.  --clh]
From: david-s@hsr.no (David A. Sjoen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Addresses + bibliography wanted
Date: 16 Dec 92 06:41:57 GMT
Organization: Rogaland University Centre

In article <Dec.15.04.01.10.1992.4934@geneva.rutgers.edu>, david-s@hsr.no (David A. Sjoen) writes:

> I would also like a bibliography of the writings of George Mueller
> and his associates, Henry Craik and F. Wilbur(?) Chapman (including
> biographies).                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^
			Sorry, I meant Robert (Who is/was/isn't F. Wilbur?)

> Answers in email, please.

:)avid

--
 __________________ ___________________________________________________
| David A. Sjoen   |"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they |
| Gulaksveien 4    | follow me; and I give them life eternal; and they |
| N-4017 STAVANGER | shall never perish, and no one shall seize them   |
| Norway           | out of my hand." John 10:27-29                    |
`------------------'---------------------------------------------------'
    E-MAIL: david-s@ifi.hsr.no  (Rogaland University Centre, Norway)
From: dl2y+@andrew.cmu.edu (Donna Marie Lewis)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is Christianity really the ONLY way?
Date: 17 Dec 92 04:55:33 GMT

To all at soc.religion.christian, 
                        Please pray for the University Oratory of the
Holy Spirit Parish. This fine parish, which has brought many people to
Christ , is in danger of being surpressed by the Catholic bishop of
Pittsburgh. This makes little sense, as the Oratory is not just holding
its own but thriving, but politics being what they are, there is a real
danger htat it will be closed . The flourishing community of excellent
priests which serve it may be forced to leave,  ruining years of work.
Humanly speaking, the  loss of an excellent campus ministry at two
secular universities, Pitt and Carnegie Mellon, would be a great blow to
the future of the Church. The pressures of secularism are bad enough on
campus without this deprivation.
                         Please ask the Lord to spare this parish
family. Catholics and others who believe in sainly intercession could
also ask Our Lady of the Oratory and St. Philip Neri to pray for us. 
                                    Thank you.
                                                       Yours in Christ,
                                                                        
     Donna Marie Joan Lewis
"Gaudete semper"- "Rejoice always": St. Philip Neri
"Cor ad cor loquitur"- "Heart speaks to heart":
 Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman

[When I was a grad student at CMU, the Oratory was a very powerful
witness on campus.  I'm sorry to hear that it's in trouble.  --clh]