From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: On Power
Date: 10 Sep 92 04:09:03 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin

evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura) writes:
>
>>From: Morgan 25
>>At least some of you have accepted
>>the fact that we are not Satanists, that we do not seek power
>>and that we seek to harm no one.  And for this, I am grateful.
>
>[examples from salary to high priestesshood deleted]
>I used CAPS for emphasis. Witches and other magic users seek power
>over people, places, and things. Most pagans dabble in the esoteric
>arts. The claim that pagans do not seek power is ludicrous. 

I'm inclined to agree with you that to say pagans do not seek power is
incorrect.  However, I do not necessarily think that to seek power
means to seek power over people, places, or things.  There's the power
that comes from within, the power that does not assert itself against
anyone.  To quote from Starhawk's _Dreaming the Dark_ (because she
says it so much better than I could):

	This book is about the calling forth of power, a power based on
	a principle very different from power-over, from domination.  For
	power-over is, ultimately, the power of the gun and the bomb, the
	power of annihilation that backs up all the institutions of
	domination.

	Yet the power we sense in a seed, in the growth of a child, the
	power we feel writing, weaving, working, creating, making choices,
	has nothing to do with threats of annihilation.  It has more to do
	with the root meaning of the word power, from the (late popular)
	Latin, _podere_ ("to be able).  It is the power that comes from
	within.

	(_Dreaming the Dark_, p.3)

I think the differ here between what you're saying and what Morgan
said is that the kind of power she claimed we're not seeking is the
"power-over" kind, not the "power-from-within."  And yes, that is
something I think we're seeking, power from within ourselves.  After
all, even the Bambiest Wiccan knows the word "empowerment."  :)

(And, Thorfinn, you *know* me.  You know I'm not a Bambi-Crafter.)

>I have noticed a trend of pagan finger-pointing, though. 
>"We're innocent. We don't do that. But THOSE people do. Persecute THEM
>instead of us. Have a Nice Day :)" The Power of Redirection... 

That, unfortunately, you will find in any group.  'Tis the flaw of
consorting with humans...

I despise such finger-pointing.  Since I'm not a Satanist, how dare I
tell people what they are or are not, what they're doing or not doing?
Ludicrous.  I *can* say that I am not a Satanist.  But re-directing
someone to the Satanists (or anyone else for that matter) just to get
the pressure off of me is not something I'd *ever* like to catch
myself doing.

But there's that finger-pointing everywhere -- just look at this
election (as if it's any different from any others).  The buck stops
over there.  Humph.

>As for the "we seek to harm none" notion, anyone who has been a pagan 
>long enough has either witnessed, participated in, or been the 
>victim of a Witch War.    Control = Power.

Yeah, I hate that shit.  But it happens among all sorts of people,
even people who profess to follow "Harm none" or "Do unto others" or
"First walk a mile in his moccasins" or whatever.  Being an ass
transcends race, religion, creed -- you name it.

(Of course, what makes it more intriguing is that many of the people
engaged in such witch/church/what-have-you wars truly believe that
they are following the creeds mentioned above.  Go figure...)

>My parents taught me a sense of value. The last thing I need is an 
>invasion of the ethics-police. Why do some people seek to impose their 
>morality, their sense of ethics over other people? The answer is 
>indubitably, that they seek POWER!   

Oftentimes, I think, it's to exert some power, or control, over their
own lives ("Have to make everything tidy and just-so around here"),
not realizing that they're in effect manipulating other people.  I
think it's called being unclear on the concept...

I don't spend my time denying the fact that I seek to better myself,
to make my self and my spirit stronger, and if that means being in a
position of control over people, then that's what it means.  But I
don't look to be in charge of people or things in order to make myself
better or stronger.

I guess the upshot of this is that power, like any other tool, can be
used wisely or for ill, but it itself is fairly neutral.  And to deny
it simply because many people have grossly misused it is, indeed,
ludicrous.

Just my thoughts, for what they're worth...

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Thorfinn Einarsson    *    ALU ALU ALU    *    Odhinn er Alfadhir!
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
Newsgroups: alt.pagan