HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: You have to be rich to get the Authorities to listen
Date: 9 Apr 92 15:12:17 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Apr9.073054.1200@sics.se> lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson) writes:
>In article <10882@chalmers.se>, d9bertil@dtek (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr8.100956.21440@kth.se> tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE writes:
>>>Perhaps you have AXE in T{by, but where I live (Nacka) we have to bear with
>>>the old electromechanical switch station another two years or so.
>>
>>  Besides, Telev{rken can't even manage to tranfer from the old systems to
>>AXE without having to change the telephone numbers!
>
>Swedish Telecom can very well transfer from the old exchanges to AXE
>without changing telephone numbers.

  Let the record show that when AXE was installed in Onsala, south of
Gothenburg, all households was asked if they wanted to 
  a) keep their old number and not get AXE
  b) get AXE and a new number.

  Any alternative c) keep their old number and get AXE wasn't available. 
When questioned they blamed this on "the computer" which is a euphemism from
"We don't want to!" when it is used by big corporations and agencies.

>I am certain that Swedish Telecom would be very happy to learn from
>you how to maintain availability of free phone numbers for new
>subscribtions without having to occasionally change the numbering
>plan. You can call them on phone number 90 200.

  They can do as they are doing here in Gothenburg right now: Add a digit in
front of the number: All 7X XX XX numbers become 7 7X XX XX.

>Do you have to write snide remarks about
>everything the public sector does just because it is the public
>sector?

  No, I have snide remarks about a number of Swedish private corporations,
a number of international companies and agencies, some American presidential
candidates, some American netters, some Canadian netters, and last but not
least some Swedish netters.
  Want to hear all them too?

  Also, snide remarks about the public sector is Swedish Culture:)

>Lars-Henrik Eriksson				Internet: lhe@sics.se

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dagens Nyheter April 6th on Swedish-speaking Finns
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:44:58 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <ISAC.92Apr8092539@rieska.oulu.fi>, isac@rieska.oulu.fi (Juha
Iisakka) writes:
> Edith S|dergran was a good poet who used Swedish language.
> Her influence to SWEDISH litterature is big.
> Should I be proud of her because she happened to be
> a Finnish citizen?

Yes,
Kent, another Finn.
From: jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Iranian embassy torched
Date: 9 Apr 92 02:15:49 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

Tim Dudley writes:
>In article <10823@chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
>writes:
>>
>>  Yesterday a large number (70+) of demonstrators broke through the fence 
>>
>>  The mujahedin have claimed responsibility for the attack and said that
>>is was a retaliation for an Iranian attack against mujahedin camps in 
Iraq.
>
>Same thing (roughly) happened in Ottawa yesterday, about 40-50 of them;
 
Doesn't it strike people as rather strange that these middle-eastern
tribal battles are taking place in such northerly countries?  Since
when did the Mujahedin decide it liked snow so much?

--                    
INTERNET:  jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!jim
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: guo@quartzite.cs.odu.edu (Chunzhi Guo)
Subject: try
Originator: guo@quartzite.ocean.odu.edu
Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 15:25:14 GMT
From: hberg@polisci.pol.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Skolpeng
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:33:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: polisci.hberg.71
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota

In article <1992Apr5.233526.18290@sol.UVic.CA> klassen@sol.UVic.CA (Melvin Klassen) writes:

>In article <10760@chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>>
>>  The best translation of 'skolpeng' might be 'school cheque'. It is a 
>>proposal currently debated both locally in Gothenburg and on a national level. 
>>  In essence, it means that the money the state spends on a certain individual
>>pupil will follow that pupil to whatever school the pupil goes to, no matter
>>if it is a government run school or a privately run school.
>>  I belive Denmark has a system similar to this already.
>The Province of British Columbia (Canada) has a similar system.
>The taxpayer pays a "school-tax", and the private school
>receives some of this tax-money.  If this grant was not given, it would be 
>deemed to be unfair to those parents who, by sending their child(ren) to 
>private school, would not receive any benefit for their taxes. 

This is the same idea as the voucher system that the conservatives in the US 
are trying to push through.  Parents who do not send their children to 
public schools (where horrible-liberal humanism is taught) would get 
vouchers from the state that could be used to pay the tuition in Good 
Christian Schools.  We horrible-liberals regard this as a very regressive 
idea.
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dagens Nyheter April 6th on Swedish-speaking Finns
Date: 6 Apr 92 13:38:03 GMT
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <1992Apr6.094502.5672@lth.se>, sundinKC@dna (Anders Sundin) writes:
>There are indications that the Finnish-speaking majority in Finland
>regards the Swedish dialect in Finland as unnessecary, alien, and
>repulsive. On the streets of Helsingfors the Swedish-speaking avoid
>using their mothers language. In Euro-Finland differences in skin
>color or language are not appreciated.

I think these are pretty much nonsensical comments.  What many people
in Finland do oppose is the mandatory teaching of the language, and
some might also oppose the tax-payers money spent on for example
Swedish-language programs on the government TV and some other things
which give the Swedish-speaking people "an advantage".

I don't really know what this "Euro-Finland" is - but perhaps that's
the euro-condition so much talked about in the Finnish media, we'll
have to get into euro-condition to be able to join EU.  So I guess
that perhaps it might have some basis - perhaps that's why we're
having more unemployment, cutting social benefits, health care,
preparing to have our civil liberties cut by phone tapping, giving
more rights to the police, giving billons to bansk.  Perhaps some more
racism and xenophobia are needed and that's part of the Euro-program
required for EU membership, and due to the poor availability of
foreigners it is supposed to be rehearsed with Swedish speakers and DN
is showing some support on the program?

>Edit S|dergran is celebrated by the Swedish speaking Finns, and by
>the rest of the world. But in Finnish Finland the uninterest is total.

Hmm, I don't think I've ever heard about Edit S|dergran.  Should I?
Is the rest of the world celebrating everyone who know writes and
speaks multiple languages and has gone to a different-language
university, or what's the point here?

//Jyrki
From: sthaug@delab.sintef.no (Steinar Haug)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Ruling parties in Norden
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:01:18 GMT
Organization: SINTEF DELAB, Trondheim, Norway.

> In Norway the ruling party is Labour. They call themselves both social 
> democrats and socialists, and are further to the left politically 
> speaking than labour in the UK, and the democratic party in the USA.

Arbeiderpartiet being further to the left than Labour in the UK?
Hmm... could you elaborate a bit on that? I seem to remember that
Labour (UK) used to have unilateral nuclear disarmament on their
program; I think it's been a while since Arbeiderpartiet argued
along those lines.

Personally, I often find great similarities between Arbeiderpartiet
and H|yre (the Conservative Party here in Norway)... and I think that
the differences are often made to seem bigger than they really are,
from a fear of having the voters discover that these two parties are
close :-)

Steinar Haug
Trondheim, Norway
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 13 Apr 92 07:54:46 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden

Espen H. Koht writes:

>Would you
>rather live in a society where you have to spend coniderable amounts of
>money on home security, send your kids to schools with guards?

In Stockholm, you are advised to get a iron-bar door in your apartment
because the police doesn't have time to investigate burglaries. Crime
rates are rocketing, and government-payed "scientists" come up with stupid
explanations to calm people down.

>   There are a lot of better examples out there. I always laugh when I
>see cars here in the US with bumper-stickers that say 'ban taxes' while
>I'm driving on the *highway* (or any other road for that matter). 
>There is no way these things can be privately financed.  

In Sweden we have these Libertarianists who claim it can be done. I always
thought there were pay-for highways and bridges in America and Europe.
Anyway, the average Stockholmer pays 1600 crowns for the roads and sends
4000 crowns away to Norrland so they can afford to drive 200 km and sit
and fish on their sick-day vacancies.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dagens Nyheter April 6th on Swedish-speaking Finns
Date: 7 Apr 92 06:49:01 GMT
Reply-To: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Organization: SICS, Kista (Stockholm), Sweden
Originator: lhe@yang.sics.se

In article <1992Apr6.133803.2689@nntp.hut.fi>, jkp@cs (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:
>Hmm, I don't think I've ever heard about Edit S|dergran.  Should I?
>Is the rest of the world celebrating everyone who know writes and
>speaks multiple languages and has gone to a different-language
>university, or what's the point here?

Well, Edit S|dergran was one of Finland's greatest poets. Of course,
she did write most of her work in Swedish, and (to my knowledge) none
in Finnish.

So the answer to your question "Should I" depends on what you think is
important: quality or language.
-- 
-- 
Lars-Henrik Eriksson				Internet: lhe@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science		Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263					Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28  KISTA, SWEDEN
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dagens Nyheter April 6th on Swedish-speaking Finns
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:31:42 GMT
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <1992Apr6.165628.25271@kth.se>, matsd@LINK (matsd@physchem.kth.se (mats dahlgren)) writes:
>YES!  You should have heard of Edit S|dergran.  The point here is you -- 
>being a Finn -- should know enough of your cultural history to at the 
>very least have heard about one of the main poets of Finland this 
>century.

Ah.  Why didn't you say in the first place that she was a poet - all I
saw was that her mother tongue was Swedish, she talked some other
languages and went to a German university in St. Petersburgh.  In my
book that doesn't count to make her someone I should know about.  Now
that you tell me that she was a remarkable poet I can justifiably feel
ashamed of knowing very little about Finnish poets.

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: pkokkone@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Pellervo Kokkonen)
Subject: Re: You have to be rich to get the Authorities to listen.
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 14:07:40 GMT


About "900" numbers:

In Finland those were introduced a couple of years ago.

That meant that the main company organizing bus traffic reorganized
its information lines for bus departure/arrival information as 
"900" numbers. Result: you have to pay about $1/minute just to be
able to use their commercial services. Same applies to airport information,
trains and many other public information services. I am not quite sure
whether TAX authority has yet gone for that.
From: matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (matsd@physchem.kth.se (mats dahlgren))
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: EC / EFTA treaty
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:48:06 GMT
Reply-To: matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm

In article <WOLFGANG.92Apr13131522@sam.first.gmd.de>, wolfgang@sam.first.gmd.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp) writes:
>
>Just a little interesting note:
>
>According to our paper, the European court has ruled the (somewhat improved)
>EC/EFTA treaty valid now.
>So, starting on January, 1, 1993 we'll have a trade Union all over 
>Western-Europe.
>
. . . provided the treaty is passed by all national and the EC 
parliaments.

/mats

********************************************************************************

  mats dahlgren 
  Dept. of Physical Chemistry		Mail:	matsd@physchem.kth.se
  The Royal Institute of Technology	Phone:	+46 8 790 8595
  S-100 44  Stockholm, Sweden           Fax:	+46 8 790 8207

              All opinions expressed above are private opinions.
From: rcf@pnet01.cts.com (Bob Forsythe)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Hard times in Norway?
Date: 12 Apr 92 15:16:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: crash.1992Apr12.151608.16612
Organization: People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA

Espen.H.Koht@dartmouth.edu (Espen H. Koht) writes:
>
>   Don't forgett that unemployment figures are arrived differently in
>the US and Norway.  The US is notorious for: 
>a) Under-counting 'bad' statistics 
>b) Changing 'methods' of accounting to artificially make rates rise and
>fall for political benefit.
>
>  I'm not saying that the US is the only country that does this, but it
>is something that shoudl be kept in mind.
>


     What the U.S. does is decide that anyone who isn't employed by the time
their unemployment insurance runs out doesn't want to be employed, and
therefore takes them off the unemployment rolls.  Makes for a lovely little
statistical lie.

-Bob
rcf@pnet01.cts.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Pros and Cons of EU (was Re: Increasing EU opposition in Denmark)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:15:30 GMT

In article <1992Apr5.105622.6700@nntp.hut.fi> jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:

>Simple: economics.  Finland has disadvantages due to cold climate,

 Since when the cold is bad for business? It used to be common
 the belief that the investors prefer the cold areas because
 the people are forced to be inside and work, than outside and
 talk...:-)  In any case today, the statistics show that the weather
 within certain limits is almost irrelevant in the capitalist world.

>long distance etc, and if everything is able to relocate freely
>there's no way Finland can compete with other EU countries for

  Very easily Finland can tax the consumers' income instead of
  the investors, and then all the investments will come there.
  Again this is the case today too.
  And Finland has the advantage of big natural resources, wood,
  which is the main source of attraction for income

>industry, jobs, investments etc.  The social benefits etc. can't be
>better than in other places because it would cause taxes to be higher

 The social benefits depend almost totally on the relative priorities
 which the people choose (eg cars, houses, gold, vacations vs. health).

>than in other places, and nobody would want to have their business in
>Finland when they could have it in other places where taxes are lower,
>distances are shorter and so on.

 The excellent example is California. With the average US standards
 it is considered almost a socialist state. Yet, the economic boom
 was unique here. Now with the recession everything is being reduced,
 but not any more than the other states.

>>>- the threat of totalitarianism resulting from a big, undemocratic,
>>>  centraliced government (look at the Soviet Union and USA)
>>>  - probable loss of individual freedom and civil liberties,

 The civil liberties are not any worse in the US. The social benefits
 yes. But this reflects the historical path of this country.
 With respect the "big, undemocratic, centralized governments", the
 only obligatory consequence of the "big" is that fewer politicians
 correspond to the same number of citizens (rather positive...).

>>>    in general the "little people" will suffer

  This is absolutely dependent on the cultural characteristics
  of the local state. Only.

>//Jyrki


Gregory Dandulakis
From: John.DeCarlo@p109.f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org (John DeCarlo)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: How high are our taxes?
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1992 12:11:35 -0500

On <Apr 03 12:23>, Bertil Jonell (d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se ) wrote:

 BJ >  There was a debate about "How high are our taxes, really?" in 
 BJ >G\teborgsposten earlier this winter. 

Well, we have that debate over here in the U.S. as well.  Has anyone seen
any studies that show how much people pay at various pay scales in the
various countries, including Sweden and U.S.?

I suspect that lower income people in the U.S. pay more than lower income 
people in Sweden, especially when you include "pseudo-taxes" for things like 
day care and medical insurance.
  



Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Pros and Cons of EU (was Re: Increasing EU opposition in Denmark)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 18:57:32 GMT

In article <1992Apr5.131604.8251@nntp.hut.fi> jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:

>>Could you elaborate on these points a little more? I really can't
>>see how the points above would be affected by joining the EC? Jens.
>
>I have the impression that these are better in Finland than in EU / EC
>countries, and these cost money, so to maintain competitiveveness in
>EU Finland would have very big pressures to lower the standards on
>these things to match the rest of EU (otherwise taxes are higher than
>in other countries).

   Can you please explain to us then: 

           How Finland is competitive *today* ?

    By *forcing* the foreign or domestic capitalists to invest there?
    Against theirown profits maximization?
    I doubt it a lot.

    Instead, contemporary Finland is competitive because uses its
    natural resources extensively and keeps the infrastructure level 
    high (including education etc) by *taxating* its people accordingly.
    Nobody from the federal EU level will have any saying to reduce 
    or increase the personal income tax platform at the state level.
    This was always the case in the US too.


Gregory Dandulakis

PS: Who is going to protect us from the *populist* polititians' airheads???!!
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 14 Apr 92 12:00:30 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Apr10.034910.17728@midway.uchicago.edu> rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>I write:
>>Dagis is
>>only 15% of the cost of what we pay here
>
>To which d9bertil (the "9" is silent) replies:

  And the 'd':)

>Now, inevitably, if the state is taking your taxes and subsidizing
>something, then you gain if you are a user of that something and
>lose if you aren't. But the point is that society has decided
>that some services are so essential that they should be accessible
>to all.

  Yes, agreed 100%.

  But (and it is a big one) the society may change it's mind, despite 
the loads of people (more outside of Sweden than inside it(1)) that claim
that what we have right here right now is somehow morally superior.

  (1) Yup, assume that 50% of the Swedish people like the current system,
totally forgetting legal age to vote etc, that's 4M people. Can you find 
more than 4M people *worldwide* except Sweden who thinks Sweden now is
heaven on earth? Yes, take the US Democratic party for example:)

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
From: Espen.H.Koht@dartmouth.edu (Espen H. Koht)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic 
 freedom
Date: 11 Apr 92 20:41:57 GMT
 <1992Apr4.034154.4741@midway.uchicago.edu>  <10885@chalmers.se>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

In article <10885@chalmers.se>
d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
.
> 
>   Tom takes $100 from him Dick, buys a pink flamingo for them and gives it to
> Harry. What did Dick get (other than shafted)?

   And what happened to Harry and Tom's $100?  No really if you look at
the entire system you realize that no money vanishes into thin air no
matter how much or little taxation there is.  It is the distribution
that makes the difference.  If you want to debate tax rates that is
what you should be considering.  Do you care about an egalitarian
society?  Equal opportunity?  Democracy that means something with
economic factors are counted as well as political ones?  Would you
rather live in a society where you have to spend coniderable amounts of
money on home security, send your kids to schools with guards?  Forgo
things in life you appreciate because your favorite musician/author is
not publishable from an economic perspective?  Or be a slave to tastes
and opinions that are only shared by the majority of people because
that is what nakes economic sense?

> >Medical insurance is only the most obvious of these. 
>   If you are willing and able to wait, that is. If you aren't or can't 
> you'll have to cough up the money twice. First time for the tax, second
> time for the care from a independent.

  This point is releveant when it comes to 'choice' treatment, not
emergency, and in that chase the market factors still work.  ie. even
with the tax added in you find the intervention worth what you are
paying for it.  

>   We can debate the public value of cheap opera and cheap boatrides, and
> also what use I here in Gothenburg have of all those entertainments for
> Stockholmers.

   There are a lot of better examples out there. I always laugh when I
see cars here in the US with bumper-stickers that say 'ban taxes' while
I'm driving on the *highway* (or any other road for that matter). 
There is no way these things can be privately financed.  

Espen
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:2613 soc.culture.europe:3511 eunet.politics:577