Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Friday, 20 Nov 1992 10:11:27 CST
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (Chicago Cro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Croatia's borders

In article <scRiuB3w165w@infopls.chi.il.us>, damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir
Matanic) says:
>
>  The Drava river throughtout the course of recorded history has marked
>the dividiing line between Croatia and Hungary.  From the Drava the Croat
>lands spread out in a north-south direction to the Adriatic Sea, while
>from west to east they reach from the Slovenian Alps to the central
>Balkans and Serbia.  It is of the greatest importance to understand that
>geographically the Croatian territories are entirely distint from Serbia.
> At the time of the foundation of the Croat state its normal direction of
>expansion was westward to the Adriatic, whereas the Serb line of march
>was southwards and eastwards.  .......The Drina river has formed
>Croatia's natural boundary with Serbia just as the Drava has with
>Hungary.......On the other hand, formidable geographic barriers that have
>separated the Croats from the Serbs throughout the course of recorded
>history have allowed the former to develop a Central European as oppoesed
>to the latter's "Balkan" mentality.
>.....South of Dalmatian or White Croatia lay Red Croatia, reaching from
>the Cetina river to the lake of Skutari in Albania.  Parts of southern
>Dalmatia, Montenegro, modern Hercegovina, in others words the lands below
>the Sara Planine, the root of the Balkan mountain system, were included
>in it.  It probably extended northwest to the sources of the Kulpa.
>Until the mid-tenth century Red Croatia probably formed a part of a
>Croatian confederation in which White Croatia was the dominant
>element....
>.............that from the seventh or eighth to the eleventh and the
>first part of the twelfth centuries there were two Croat kingdoms (White
>and Red Croatia), which shared the dominion of this area.
>.....Probably Mislav before him (Trpimir) had initiated the process of
>pushing the power of the Croat dukes throughout all Bosnia between the
>Vrbas and Drina.  Trpimir completed it. In so doing he involved himself
>in a war with the Bulgars.  This people perhaps intended to extend their
>sway to the Adriatic,....In 855 the CRoats and Bulgars clashed and the
>former were victorious.  This triumph put an end for the time being to
>the westward push of the Bulgars {no Serbian border}.
>  .....Tomislav seems to have assumed the title of "King of the Croats"
>as early as 914.....In the course of his reign, Tomislav brought under
>his control not only Pannonian and White Croatia (Dalmatia norht of
>Cetina) but also Red Croatia (southern Dalmatia), Istria and all of
>Bosna.  .....More important than this the Byzantines were so impressed by
>his growing power that they sought his aid agianst the Bulgars.....Had a
>Bulgar-Croat alliance come into being there is little doubt that
>Byzantium, assailed on its Asiatic flanks by the Moslems, would have
>succumbled before it.
>.....According to these statistic the Croat navy as a fighting power was
>only slightly inferior in numbers of shops to those of Venice and
>Byzantium itself.  .....Tomislav did not use this force, which
>Constantine Porphyrogenitus say numbered 160,000 men,... to fight wars of
>aggession or conqust.
>
>
>History of Medieval Croatia
>by Stanko Guldescu
>Mouton & Co-The Hague
>1964
>
>
>
>Damir
>
>--
>damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
>Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.

Hey Damir

Is there anything in your book that mentions how the Serbs were obliterated
by the Bulgars and then the Serbs came crying to us to liberate them?
If so please post it. Do you have the map that shows these borders. I have one
which is 2'X 3' feet and HAS Sandzak on it. I also have the map with
a certain Poglavnik on it. Zlatko if you want one I know where to get them.

-Cro
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:581 soc.culture.europe:9694