HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dwolff@res-c4.Prime.COM (David Wolff)
Subject: Re: Gallery record of
Organization: Prime Computer, Inc.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:34:33 GMT

In article <93572@bu.edu>, abw@natchez.bu.edu (Al Wesolowsky) writes:
> Following e-mail is relayed to a.c.jfk at the request of Craig Stacy.
> 
> From craigs@garfield.cs.mun.ca Thu Aug 13 09:33:07 1992
> Return-Path: <craigs@garfield.cs.mun.ca>
> From: Craig Stacey <craigs@garfield.cs.mun.ca>
> To: abw@bucrsb.bu.edu
> Subject: Re: Gallery Magazine July '79
> Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
> References: <1992Aug10.211731.23597@watson.ibm.com> <93512@bu.edu>
> Date: 	Thu, 13 Aug 1992 01:42:45 -0230
> 
> I remember running across this magazine once among my brother's
> magazines several years ago.  I played the record on my crappy kid's
> record player then and what I can remember from it is an announcer of
> some sort and a replaying of the gunshot as recorded by one of the
> motorcycle cops who had the recorder on his bike on.  I am quite
> certain I still have it somewhere, but since I moved 2 years ago, my
> record collection has appeared mysteriously incomplete, so it is likely
> tucked away somewhere among the rest of my missing albums.  If I should
> manage to find it, I will make a posting here about it.

Missing records!  *Proof* of a conspiracy!

Boy, these conspirators really get around.

David Wolff

dwolff@RES-C4.Prime.COM (works from most places)
dwolff%res-c4.prime.com@relay.cs.net (alternate)

Disclaimer:  Reflecting Prime policy is a non-goal of this posting.
FreeAdvert:  Esperanto, the international language *that works*:
             Call (800) 828-5944 for free info package (US or Canada)
WittyQuote:  Witty but very long saying condensed into a microdot: "."
Kibofodder:  mjd Kibo oze
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
From: sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 00:04:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Aug12.062039.7082@reed.edu> kuch@reed.edu (Jerry Kuch) writes:
>
>It doesn't seem outrageously implausible that once you've entered the
>military and demonstrated any kind of aptitude for intelligence work
>that it won't be cultivated.

If you send teenagers into combat and they act rashly, the worst that
can happen is that they get themselves shot up. But if you send
teenagers into sensitive spy-and-counterspy situations in hostile
territory, and they act rashly, hell, they can do far more damage
than that! They can precipitate an entire international crisis.
>
>Then again, maybe Oswald really did learn Russian out of a library book.
>Maybe this was a good enough book that people meeting him in the Soviet 
>Union would believe him a native speaker, perhaps with a "slight
>Baltic accent."

Oswald's mother learned Russian, as a lifelong Marxist this had great
importance to her. What little LHO knew, he probably learned from Mom.
And after 'total immersion' for several months, he would no doubt be
a much better speaker. Hell, the Berlitz schools can teach languages
in less time than that!

>>disaffected and defect. The program may have infiltrated as many as 40
>>military personnel , some for only a few weeks , into the USSR.
>>
>>Between 1945 and 1959, only 2 US military personnel defected to the USSR.
>>
>>In the 18 months leading up to 1960, 11 men with military backgrounds
>>or backgrounds with access to sensitive data defected.
>>
>>5 army, 2 NSA employees [and former army], 1 former OSS, 1 former Air Force
>>Major, 1 former Navy working for the Rand Dev. Corp, 
>>and 1 former Marine, fresh from the Atsugi Air Base, where U2's flew
>>out of -- Lee Harvey Oswald.  
>>                                           [from Conspiracy by Anthony Summers]

It's one thing to think about sending someone over. It's quite another to
count on getting them back!

-- 
  
        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
  
 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3072 alt.conspiracy:10197
From: f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Fletcher Prouty's New Zealand Story (JFK)
Date: 21 Aug 92 12:57:24 CST
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Aug20.112650.21712@cas.org>, jac54@cas.org () writes:
> In article <1992Aug19.151657.629@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>>>
>>>      As far as Agee is concerned you still have to answer questions like:
>>>
>>> a.      Why did Agee fail to report a number of trips to Cuba?
>>>
>>>      As this was revealed in a public domain document and he
>>>      didn't sue for defamation or libel I conclude that the
>>>      report is true.
>>>
>>> b.      Where DOES he get his money from?
>>>
>>>      This is the big question and has shut him up on several
>>>      occasions.
>>>
>>>
>>>      Alec Chambers.
>>
>>       Agee's character I could not begin to attest to one way or
>>the other;i.e., is he disreputable or a victim of the 'big smear'.
> 
> 	These are not questions of character.  These are facts that
> 	Agee and his acolytes seem averse to bringing out into
> 	public view.
> 
> 
> 
>>       What he has to say, however, is right in line with Marchetti
>>and McGehee.  Let's face it.  Any former agent who goes public
>>with an insider's viewpoint of intelligence activities knows the
>>price of poker ...and it appears to have been a hefty price.  McGehee
>>particularly impresses me as a real patriot who just never could
>>sell his conscience.
> 
> 	McGehee's story is not unique to him or to the CIA.  I haven't
> 	finished the book yet but I suspect that he is raising the same
> 	points that a number of disaffected agents and defectors have
> 	raised.  These are points that need to be addressed.
> 
> 	Alec Chambers.

	I'm interested in reading more on Agee.  Any suggestions?  I 
wish I remembered more of the details of an article on Agee and some
of his problems in a recent Houston Chronicle article.  As I recall, and right
now I am not prepared to be more specific, my impression was that there
were some misrepresentations about him, deliberate or otherwise.
From: david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Date: 15 Aug 1992 02:22:51 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <13AUG199212033646@summa.tamu.edu> mst4298@summa.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd) writes:
|In article <schuck.713688893@sfu.ca|, Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes...
||Mitchell S Todd |
||Bruce Schuck ||
||Robert "Skeptical of one side only" Sheaffer |||
||David Wright ||||
|
|||||Oswald was only 20 when he went to the USSR, supposedly as a "CIA
|||||operative." That means that his alleged training must have taken
|
|| 
||||So. They train teenagers to fly fighter planes.
|
|||	Since when? Last I checked, you have to be a college grad
|||	to fly one.
|
||Did you check 1959/1960?
|
|	The last time non-college grads were admitted to flight training
|	was 1954. I know because my father was one of the last non-college
|	cadets to get into flight school (and he was over twenty a the
|	time as well).

Just what is it you guys are arguing about anyway? Oswald was being trained for
deadly and important missions since his days when he flew with Ferrie. This is
obviously ideal from the CIA's point of view. They get a young recruit, do a 
few odd and ends, nothing to dangerous, and then can have some deap cover.
I don't see anything absurd about this at all. It is not as though the CIA went
actively looking, but if someone like Oswald joins the Civil Air Patrol at an
early age, they might want to keep him for some purpose. After all, the Soviets
say they knew Oswald was an agent anyway, and they didn't kill him or put his
life in danger.

-- 
   |^^^^^^|      _______________________________________________________
   |      |      |"There is nothing in the marginal conditions that    | 
   |      |      | distinguish a mountain from a mole hill"            |
   | (o)(o)      O         Kenneth Boulding                            | 
   @      _)    o|_____________________________________________________|  
    |  ____\ o o
    |     /   
   /     \                              All comments  are mine---(David Wright) 
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:2944 alt.conspiracy:9928 sci.skeptic:14169
From: jxxl@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (John Locke)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:26:11 GMT
Reply-To: jxxl@cs.nps.navy.mil (John Locke)
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Organization: Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey CA

david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright) writes:

> Just in case anyone still had doubts, the report typed up that had Clay
> Shaw's alias as Clay Bertrand is now published in a book by Jim DeGincini, or
> something like that. It's called Destiny Betrayed.

The reason the alias on the booking card was thrown out of court was that, in
accordance with police procedures, the detainee signed the card before any
of the blanks were filled in. Later, the blanks were filled in from data on
the arrest sheet. In addition, other people who were witnesses to Shaw's
signing the card testified that Shaw had never been asked for aliases. This
is why Officer Habighorst's uncorroborated and contradicted testimony was
disallowed. Naturally, Garrison fails to confront these details in "On the
Trail of the Assassins," even to rebut them.

> Jim also found that orders for Oswald's 544 Camp street pamphlets by the CIA
> from the publishers of those pamplets.

Uh-huh.

> Note also that a stack was found in
> Bannister's office by Garrison. This proves that Oswald was working for the
> CIA.

Garrison never found any pamphlets in Bannister's office. By the time
Garrison had begun his excursions into paranoid fantasy, Bannister was
dead (died in 1964). The story of the pamphlets being found in Bannister's
file cabinet came from Bannister's widow. She also said she destroyed them.
Another one for the "how convenient" file.

John

[Followup-To: alt.conspiracy.jfk]
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3035 alt.conspiracy:10085 sci.skeptic:14521
From: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Cla
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:26:51 GMT
Reply-To: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Pyramid Technologies, Mt. View, California.

In article <92228.024434U54778@uicvm.uic.edu>, U54778@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
|> 
|> [stuff deleted.....addresses Mitchell's points against LHO as teen spy ]
|> 
|> You keep holding up either the highly educated spy who sits in an office
|> and is an expert at deciphering some bit of data or the spy who goes
|> under cover (and a bit Bondish at that) in some hostile country.
|> You are ignoring all that we have learned about some of the seemy
|> characters like Sturgis who I would not be able to place in either of those
|> categories.

Funny you should mention Sturgis, Alan.  Here's an excerpt from the taped
interview of Sturgis by Michael Canfield.  It was made after the Rockefeller
Commission deduced that Sturgis didn't "work for" the CIA, by failing to find 
any Agency documents that indicated that he did.

The excerpt is taken from "Coup D'Etat in America" by Canfield and Webberman.

STURGIS: -- and a number of other people and so forth.  Okay, well, I
think I told you earlier that I don't know if I'm a CIA agent or was a
CIA agent or not
because the top brass in CIA first denies me then they acknowledge me, then 
they deny me, so I don't know what the hell I am, but all I know is I've
been involved in a lot of activities for the United States government, from
the very beginning -- from the time that I joined the United States Marine
Corps when I first turned seventeen years old up until the present day, and
I have three honorable discharges from the service.  I served in Europe, United
States, Latin America, and I served in Asia.  Now as far as domestic 
intelligence.....


(Later in the interview, Sturgis admits to having been approached to perform a 
"domestic" assassination, and states that he would do it, but would first
want to meet the controlling case officer face-to-face to make sure who
it was and verify that the case officer could authorize the mission.)

Hopefully, Sturgis' testimony reinforces two notions: 1.) some teens are
spies, 
and 2.) its not easy to 'prove' one's relationship to the CIA.

Finally, though I don't think is necessary to explain or understand LHO's 
mission in Russia, and I do believe the testimony associating him with 
government operations is overwhelming enough to allow one to reasonably
speculate that LHO was an operative of the Feds, if not an outright agent
of the CIA, I will pass along speculation by "James Hepburn" author of
"Farewell America", who suggests that LHO's stay in Russia lasted long enough
(30 months) to be considered 'long-term' and that consistent with long
term work he may have done nothing at all for several years.  Hepburn also 
suggests that things may have changed and he was recalled stateside.

Paul Collacchi

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
From: mark.stevens@spacebbs.com (Mark Stevens) 
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: The Garrison Tapes (J
Date: 15 Aug 92 03:01:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: mark.stevens@spacebbs.com (Mark Stevens) 


To: canderso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chuck Anderson)

>I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the special two day Court TV
>special trial next Monday and Tuesday.  It will try Oswald again.

CA>Is this the same trial that I saw a few years ago?  The prosecuting
CA>attorney was Leo Buscaglia (is that right?), the man who prosecuted
CA>Charles Manson.

This was an all new trial that the ABA sponsored as part of their
convention in San Francisco on Monday and Tuesday.  It got a lot of
press coverage.  The highlight was a 3d re-creation of the shooting.
I saw a news story of how the 3d video was made.


The jury was asked the simple question of "Did Oswald shoot JFK".
The jury deadlocked with 5 saying he didn't and 7 saying he did.

I'd like to get a copy of it but I don't think court TV is on many
cable services.  Hopefully this will surface sometime.
---
 . DeLuxe./386 1.25 #42 .
From: david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Date: 15 Aug 92 01:49:18 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <ba4m1l.sheaffer@netcom.com> sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
|In article <169ri1INNohg@darkstar.UCSC.EDU| david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright) writes:
||
||Just in case anyone still had doubts, the report typed up that had Clay
||Shaw's alias as Clay Bertrand is now published in a book by Jim DeGincini, or
||something like that. It's called Destiny Betrayed.
||
||Jim also found that orders for Oswald's 544 Camp street pamphlets by the CIA
||from the publishers of those pamplets. Note also that a stack was found in
||Bannister's office by Garrison. This proves that Oswald was working for the
||CIA.
||
|
|Oswald was only 20 when he went to the USSR, supposedly as a "CIA
|operative." That means that his alleged training must have taken
|place while he was literally a teenager.
|
|Does anybody have the slightest REAL evidence that the CIA or other
|U.S. agencies have ever recruited and trained "teen agents," and sent
|them off on life-or-death games of spy and counterspy? 
|
...
|Unless anyone can show some SOLID evidence that the CIA has actually
|recruited Teen Agents (and messed-up ones, at that), and sent them
|into enemy territory on high-risk missions, this notion of "Teen
|Agents" is one of the silliest parts of the Conspiracy yarns.

Well, I wrote paritally in jest, but it is plain from studying our mischevious
Oswald that he did in fact have CIA connections, definitely intelligence
connections. There is no smoking gun of course, but just at looking at
Oswald's actions, it seems clear enough to any sceptical person.
|-- 
|  
|        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
|  
| Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!
|
|       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
|        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
|        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
|        where it will end."
|                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"


-- 
   |^^^^^^|      _______________________________________________________
   |      |      |"There is nothing in the marginal conditions that    | 
   |      |      | distinguish a mountain from a mole hill"            |
   | (o)(o)      O         Kenneth Boulding                            | 
   @      _)    o|_____________________________________________________|  
    |  ____\ o o
    |     /   
   /     \                              All comments  are mine---(David Wright) 
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3067 alt.conspiracy:10185
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 04:05:51 GMT

Robert Sheaffer >
Bruce Schuck >>>

>>>disaffected and defect. The program may have infiltrated as many as 40
>>>military personnel , some for only a few weeks , into the USSR.
>>>
>>>Between 1945 and 1959, only 2 US military personnel defected to the USSR.
>>>
>>>In the 18 months leading up to 1960, 11 men with military backgrounds
>>>or backgrounds with access to sensitive data defected.
>>>
>>>5 army, 2 NSA employees [and former army], 1 former OSS, 1 former Air Force
>>>Major, 1 former Navy working for the Rand Dev. Corp, 
>>>and 1 former Marine, fresh from the Atsugi Air Base, where U2's flew
>>>out of -- Lee Harvey Oswald.  
>>>                                       [from Conspiracy by Anthony Summers]

>It's one thing to think about sending someone over. It's quite another to
>count on getting them back!

Ahhhhh. Of course. You being the skeptic, you firmly believe that the
governemt would *never* send anyone on a possible one way mission
because of the tremendous respect the US gov't [all gov'ts] has for
human life. Ha ha ha ha.

Summers points out that two of the 11 died, 2 cases are secret, 4 came
back, and three had an unknown fate. 

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: FIELD1@NIEHS.bitnet (Jack Field)
Subject: Hollywood & Lee Harvey Oswald
Keywords: JFK Oswald Assassination
Organization: NIEHS/DIR/SCL
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:55:05 GMT

For anyone who may be interested, Entertainment Tonight on CBS will have a
small segment this evening (8/18/92) on Lee Harvey Oswald and Hollywood's
interest in his story.  Last night's preview did not give much detail as to
what they will present but it may prove interesting.  Just thought I'd toss it
out here.

Also, the season opener of Quantum Leap has Sam "leaping" into the body of Lee
Harvey Oswald.  The TV Guide article I read only briefly mentioned the two-hour
fall season opener and did not give any details about the program. But they did
have a picture of Sam in a photograph similiar to the 'backyard' photo of
Oswald.  More than likely they will follow the conventional wisdom and play it
safe for entertainment value so as not to upset the advertisers.  

Then again, they may surprise me and actually pose some real questions those
who have followed this for so long have been asking for years.  We can only
hope.  Spur the interest in the general public to actually begin to 'think'
again rather than sponge intelligence from the well groomed network news and
programming.

Jack Field
From: mark.stevens@spacebbs.com (Mark Stevens) 
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: The Garrison Tapes (J
Date: 15 Aug 92 03:01:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: mark.stevens@spacebbs.com (Mark Stevens) 


To: ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au

CU>If you mean in the film "The Garrison Tapes", then you must have seen it.
CU>When and where, David?


Viewers Choice is showing it when they show JFK on their PPV channel.
Unfortunetly most people have Request 1 and 2 for PPV's.
---
 . DeLuxe./386 1.25 #42 . 
                                                                                         
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3038 alt.conspiracy:10100 sci.skeptic:14540