HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: todd@refrig.dixie.com (Todd H.)
Subject: Re: A R G I C allows itself far too much
Organization: throw it on the floor - it's happier there.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 13:22:50 GMT

pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:

>4. There is no mail link back to Argiq, so it gets nothing that it deserves.

I've been watching everyone wail and moan about this trouble for a long time
now, and I can't believe that y'all haven't hit upon the obvious solution to
the 'no mail link' problem.

Just move down the path until you get a real system, and hit the postmaster
with your mail.  If he's not the one responsible for passing the trash along,
he'll certainly find out who is, and let you know once he begins receiving
the ire that the real culprit deserves.

-- 
Todd++;
------------------
todd@refrig.dixie.com
**** I voted with the majority this past election - AGAINST Clinton! ****
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: A R G I C allows itself far too much
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 22:28:39 GMT

trsnyder@mcs.drexel.edu (Bob Snyder) writes:

>In article <BzxMJI.LG4@mtholyoke.edu> jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz) writes:

>>   That would be "uunet".  The person behind the Argyc program is probably
>>   a paying customer of Uunet Corp., so there's nothing that can be done
>>   about it that way. Uunet /can't/ refuse service based on content...

>Hmmmmmmmm.  Other "common carriers" like the phone company will end service
>based on anti-social activities (like dialing every number in an exchange a la
>WarGames); could the same arguement be used here?

A quick scan thru the uucp maps and mx records shows that anatolia.mn.org
has no listed connection to uunet.  They are a member of mn.org, a domain
park connecting thru tcnet.

Their mx records are:

  anatolia.mn.org preference = 100, mail exchanger = UUM1.MN.ORG
  anatolia.mn.org preference = 200, mail exchanger = geom.umn.edu

The site manager for anatolia is listed as cosar@anatolia.MN.ORG,
Ahmet Cosar, phone +1 612 672 9715.

The site manager for tcnet is listed as Greg Kemnitz, mailadm@mn.org,
+1 612 475 1527.

Whois shows no listing for geom.umn.edu.  For umn.edu, it shows:

	University of Minnesota (UMN-DOM)
	Networking Services
	Computer and Information Services
	University of minnesota
	130 Lind Hall
	207 Church St. SE
	Minneapolis, MN  55455-0134

	Domain Name: UMN.EDU

	Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
	Finseth, Craig A.  (CAF29)  fin@unet.umn.edu
	(612) 624-3375

Whois shows no listing for uum1.mn.org.  For mn.org it shows:

	MN.ORG Domain Park (MN-DOM)
	P.O. Box 47804
	Plymouth, MN  55447-0804

	Domain Name: MN.ORG

	Administrative Contact:
	Kemnitz, Greg  (GK132)  GK@KKSYS.COM
	(612) 475-1527
	Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
	Haapala, Clayton  (CH142)  clayh@UUM1.MN.ORG
	(612) 424-4888 ext. ext 2436

Me, I'm kind of curious to see what Karl is gonna do.
-- 
	"You can't get here from here."
From: kvdoel@cs.ubc.ca (Kees van den Doel)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: A forgery by "Josh Smith": a crook exposed.
Date: 29 Dec 1992 07:20:23 -0800
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.cs.ubc.ca

Turkish Armenians eat Greek hummous, Mutlu Cthulhu R'lye fhtag'n.

Dear Serdar Argic,

I humbly beg you to answer the following questions with `yes' or `no':

    a) Are you a human being?
    b) If `yes' to a), do you get paid to post?

Your dedicated admirer,


Kees
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Pomes - UofIllinois CSO)
Subject: Re: contacting anatolia.mn.org
Reply-To: Paul-Pomes@uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:59:37 GMT

krol@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Ed Krol) writes:

>To which I responded that when he could respond civilly I would be
>happy to discuss it with him.
>
>He then started sending me personally all the forwards paul sent to him
>with a message on the front saying stop sending me this.  So I would copy
>the first line and mail it back to him.
>
>Childish but sometimes you need to decide what is the appropriate level
>on which to fight.

Cosar/Argic/Mutlu et al are no longer interesting.  They have no other life
that I can tell other than pushing their version of history onto a population
that cares not a whit.  What I've done instead is add "/zuma" to the 
~news/sys file entries for our news reading machines.  Until I have our
feed sites do the same thing we'll still have the articles on our switching
machine but no one reads news there.

What would be really handy is the ability to add aliases to the ME entry,
e.g.,

ME/zuma/becker:comp,news,etc\all:F:

so that messages that had been through zuma or becker would be rejected.
This could be done by looking at the message-id presented to nntpd or
after article reception when the Path: line was available.  At that point
the message-id would be recorded in the history file but the article
wouldn't be stored - just the way a cancel is handled.

/pbp
-- 
Necessity is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves.
	--William Pitt (1783)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz)
Subject: (Auto?)Canceller, stop it! (Re: Cancels)
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 19:00:20 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.165426.27597@ennews.eas.asu.edu> sridhar@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman ) writes:
>Works for rn. I was waiting to test the following line in the killfile
>when I noticed that nothing got killed because someone else seems
>to be doing a cancel for everyone of us!

Uh huh... something I don't appreciate in the least, because I was looking
forward to Argyc's (sic) response to Josh Smith's jibberish article.

Damn it, canceller, whoever you are, stop it.  Robot or no robot,
appropriate or not appropriate, this isn't the answer.  Who gives you
the right to decide what *I* want to/should read?  When I'm sick of
even seeing the flood of Argyc robot-posts I'll use my own kill-file,
thank you.  In the meantime know that I think no better of you than
of the person behind the Argyc robot... 

--
Jurgen Botz                  |   Internet: JBotz@mtholyoke.edu
Academic Systems Consultant  |     Bitnet: JBotz@mhc.bitnet
Mount Holyoke College        |      Voice: (US) 413-538-2375 (daytime)
South Hadley, MA, USA        | Snail Mail: J. Botz, 01075-0629
From: pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: A R G I C  allows itself  far too much
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:05:48 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

Hi there! 

The above message contains some, hmm, not very parliamentary expressions,
so, if a coarse speech of a warrior may offend you, do not read below the
line. 














-------------------------------------------------------------------



I've been studying the Mudlu/Argiq issue for some time involuntarily,
because some naive people still argue with the insane postings of the wimp
(group of wimps? wimp-controlled junkmailing device?) and too often
I have to read their postings with quotations from that filthy Argiq
stuff. 

A R G I C _is_ a problem that must be dealt with because:

1. The amount of its postings is immense: sometimes they constitute 
   _m_o_r_e___t_h_a_n____a____h_a_l_f  of the daily mail in 
   soc.culture.soviet, for instance.

2. 99.99% of these postings are _g_e_n_e_r_a_t_e_d_ with no human influence:
   some program scans the mail for references to Turqey, Armaenia, genocyde,
   the dear Argiq entity itself etc. and then creates "answers" using the
   once-and-forever-set scheme:
			"you said this"
			<insult>
			<1000th reprint of the same bloody article>
   I have misspelled all Argiq-baits, so probably this letter will be
   unanswered.
   If there are no Argiq-baits, the messages are generated as new postings.

3. I speak nothing about the contents of the articles, but Dr. Goebbels
   would like at least the style of Argiq presentation of materials.

4. There is no mail link back to Argiq, so it gets nothing that it deserves.


The abovementioned facts make me consider the presense of ARGIQ entity on
the net as a sacrifice of the right for freedom speech of, maybe, thousands 
of PEOPLE for the sake of maintaining this right for one dumb mailing ROBOT.   

ARGIQ postings _do_ endanger the right for freedom of speech. They erode the
newsgroups (as it was already mentioned by somebody); you cannot answer 
back to ARGIQ; if you are a college student with not enough priority to
run your own killfile, you have to dig through _tons_ of Argiq crap in
order to read something meaningful in many areas.

If somebody tells you, "All right, you have the freedom of speech, you can
say what you want and read what you want, but all the time you'll be
doing this I'll be shitting on your head," you will definitely give away
the freedom of speech to keep your head out of shit, and though no violence 
is involved and all choices are free, you will be SHUT UP.

I don't want to. Especially by a cowardly ROBOT. Hope you don't like
the opportunity either. So let's do something with that net bain, for
it is said, "Thou shalt suffer not a wimp on the net to live!" :@)




-- 
---
Thus spake Kalmoth the Dreaded, Bane of the Forests of Gnoy.
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz)
Subject: Re: A R G I C allows itself far too much
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 19:09:17 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.132250.12357@refrig.dixie.com> todd@refrig.dixie.com (Todd H.) writes:
>pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:
>>4. There is no mail link back to Argiq, so it gets nothing that it deserves.
>
>Just move down the path until you get a real system, and hit the postmaster
>with your mail.                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That would be "uunet".  The person behind the Argyc program is probably
a paying customer of Uunet Corp., so there's nothing that can be done
about it that way. Uunet /can't/ refuse service based on content...

--
Jurgen Botz                                               jbotz@mtholyoke.edu
From: andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Andrew Hackard)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Question about our friend
Date: 31 Dec 92 22:01:28 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

eluyten@rc1.vub.ac.be (Eric Luyten) writes:
>> dennett@acadia.Kodak.COM (Charles R. Dennett) writes:
>> I've been watching the posts fly back and forth between our
>> friend and the others.  I noticed that nothing from our friend came
>> through last night.  Did he finally get shut off? 
>
>Everyone deserves a short break now and then... Maybe the PC was accidentally
>turned off by the maid ? Disk crash ? Power failure ? Funding suspended ?

With any justice at all, he got the Sun Devil treatment.

Alas, I doubt that this is what occured, but isn't it a nice thought?

--
--Andrew Hackard                                 If I spoke for UT, this post
  andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu                        would make even less sense.
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: kbibb@maui.qualcomm.com (Ken Bibb)
Subject: Re: A R G I C allows itself far too much
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 21:24:57 GMT

In <1993Jan2.015508.9513@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>From a News.admin.policy
>standpoint though, is there an ethical problem to post under an
>alias and a non-responding (or fake, depending on circumstances) 
>user ID to avoid professional embarassment?

I consider it a problem when people are posting from a site where
you can't email the individual directly.  I also consider having
unresponsive system admin personnel at a feed site (anatolia, not
mn.org) to also be a problem.

If a person is willing to say something, then they should be
willing to say it from an account where they are reachable.
This policy shouldn't apply to the alt.* hierarchy, necessarily,
but I think it should apply to the "professional" hierarchies.

(Note: I did not say that they have to use their "real-life"
names.  Some people (Bill Joy, Kenneth Thompson, for example)
are God-like beings who would be swamped with pleas for help
in vi ("how do I change a character?") or unix ("how do I create
a process?").  Since they have better things to do (and deserve
some peace and quiet), I think they should have a fake account
where they can flame without fear.  But they should (and probably
do) have addresses where email can reach them so that others
can personally respond, for times when public responses don't
appear to be appropriate.)

-- 
Ken Bibb                "he heard the snow falling faintly through the
kbibb@qualcomm.com	 universe and faintly falling, like the descent of
jester@crash.cts.com     their last end, upon all the living and the dead."
				--"The Dead", James Joyce
From: sears@tree.egr.uh.edu (Paul S. Sears)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Serdar Argic (email address?)
Date: 23 Dec 1992 17:12:06 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
Reply-To: sears@uh.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: thanatos.egr.uh.edu

In article <DGILBERT.92Dec18212220@gamiga.uucp> dgilbert@gamiga.uucp  
(dgilbert) writes:
#	I believe this only strenghens my previous arguement --- that all
#people posting to usenet should have a valid mail address.  Why?
#Because I am experience enough with UsNet to want to reply personally
#to this person --- most likely with a flame.  I would otherwise not
#want to bother the other fine people of this group with my post.  This
#is very desireable for everybody.
#

Actually, the following addess *seems* to work (well, it doesn't bounce  
like sera@zuma.UUCP does....)

anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera@uunet.uu.net

Then again, it just might be going to the bit bucket.  However, so far all  
of his posts have gone through

anatolia.mn.org

and they might be his primary feed...


--
Paul S. Sears                *  sears@uh.edu (NeXT Mail OK)
The University of Houston    *  suggestions@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXT
Engineering Computing Center *  comments, complaints, questions)
NeXT System Administration   *  DoD#1967 '83 NightHawk 650SC 
          >>> SSI Diving Certification #755020059 <<<
"Programming is like sex: One mistake and you support it a lifetime."
From: jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Killfiles
Date: 26 Dec 92 03:49:03 GMT
Organization: Virginia Center for Lemur Fandom (subscribe to alt.fan.lemurs TODAY)


Is there a newsgroup where I can learn more about killfiles?

Or perhaps someone here can help me.  Assuming I'm in my killfile and know
how to type, how do I set things up to kill all posts authored by "Serdar
Argic"?
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Newsgroup creation guidelines
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 02:14:23 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom):
>According to stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley):
>>Telling pople what is polite or good is not the same as telling them
>>what they must do.
>
>This isn't worth debating.  All I meant was that both your Users Guide
>and the guidelines have statements of the form "You should do <X>;
>If you don't do <X>, then <this thing you don't like> will happen".

Has it ever occured to you that the person who puts up a sign

    BEWARE OF FALLING ROCKS

may _not_ be responsible for the fact that the rocks fall?
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: Newsgroup creation guidelines (was Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines)
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<EMCGUIRE.92Dec20122915@mother.intellection.com>
	<1992Dec21.220935.35613@watson.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 11:38:32 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.220935.35613@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:

   (1) eliminate subjective arguments about which rename proposals
       are "related" by using a purely syntactic criterion.

I haven't seen a problem here that needs fixing.  In fact I believe
that the rename proponents are probably better judges of what should
be covered in a single ballot than an syntax-based rule ever will be.
This is particularly true given that the hierarchy is not consistent
and therefore a syntax-based arbitrary rule, which can only digest the
data fed to it, will split ballots which logically belong
together--and most likely were specifically intended to be fixed by
the rename.  There is generally a good reason why these ballots you
would be splitting are kept as a unit.

   (2) make it possible for the specification of the group names
       affected by a ballot to always fit on the subject line of an RFD/CFV.

This is more simply accomplished without imposing an arbitrary rule
either by posting the entire ballot in different hierarchies with
variant subject lines or by posting "alert" subject articles with
pointers to the single ballot.

   (2) Possibly bad:  sometimes people will have to vote two or
       more ballots when before they could have voted just one.
       This is bad only if the discussions and arguments for
       the two sets of votes are essentially the same discussions
       and arguments; otherwise it's neutral.

I think this is what I'm arguing is going to happen too many times.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Pomes - UofIllinois CSO)
Subject: Re: (Auto?)Canceller, stop it! (Re: Cancels)
Reply-To: Paul-Pomes@uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 23:31:00 GMT

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

>Then why were they cancelled by exile@mediaone.freeside.com?

Now I know where to send my thank yous.  

/pbp
-- 
Necessity is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves.
	--William Pitt (1783)
From: exile@mediaone.freeside.com (Exile in Paradise)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Yeah! Argic has called!
Date: 29 Dec 92 23:40:32 GMT
Organization: Media One Studios

I feel 'blooded' this day, my first argic response... If you've seen it I 
don't know what 'turniptude' (intentional) has to do with this group... 
so....
Nazi Armenian Garden Party Trashed By Turkish Slaugterers!
Today in 1614 in downtown Armenia etc... 
let's see if he gets this, and apologies to all for using bandwidth to 
intentionally bait him some more. A few questions: why hasn't anyone at 
anatolia or uunet done anything about him? Is there really anything that 
*can* be done without setting bad precendent (as I did) or infringing on 
netiquette? If there is something that can be done, is anyone 
coordinating it? What would the ramifications be? I will be mailing for 
the Argic FAQ so if any of this is old news then please ignore my 
babblings... also is there any way to establish a 'killfile' on Waffle 
1.65? Is the offical policy on this sort of behavior (argic-type 
postings) to be just use a kill-file at your site? Any response 
appreciated. Thanks

--[Exile in Paradise: exile@mediaone.freeside.com ]------------------------
: All sentient beings are created unequal, The best society provides each :
: with equal opportunity to float at his own level - The Gowachin Primary :
--[ Media One Studios: +1-(713)-944-4176 ]---------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz)
Subject: Re: Cancels
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 12:29:38 GMT

In article <NDDiwB3w165w@mediaone.freeside.com> exile@mediaone.freeside.com (Exile in Paradise) writes:
>Hellay there everyone! It is I, Exile, posting to apologize to everyone 
>who was annoyed at my cancels... I was just fed up with 30 posts by this 
>guy a day hitting my site. It really was an experiment to see how the 
>Internet handles cancels, and now I know... I have only been online here 
>for 2 weeks steadily and finally said "What the Hell, try it" and I did. 

This leaves me speechless.

>Well, you all have set the policy and *I* will abide by from now on,
>yet I won't hesitate to help anyone who finds a way to silence the
>endless babble from zuma. The mental picture here is frightening to
>say the least. Anyway, thanks for your posts about proper policy and
>again, apologies to all who were annoyed, but I felt I should at
>least try it once and *see* for myself.  L8r

Next time use 'misc.test' for such experiments.  Yeah, you picked the
one target on all of Usenet that was least likely to get much sympathy,
but even so you got flack for canceling other people's posts.  Hopefully
this will teach you something about how the Net works.

--
Jurgen Botz, jbotz@mtholyoke.edu
From: kbibb@maui.qualcomm.com (Ken Bibb)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: A R G I C allows itself far too much
Date: 28 Dec 92 21:52:41 GMT
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA

In <1992Dec28.185055.18248@muddcs.claremont.edu> irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:

>Ken Bibb (kbibb@maui.qualfomm.com) writes:

>> But can [Uunet] refuse service because a *human* isn't behind the posts?

>Tim Pierce (twpierce@unix.amherst.edu) replies:

>> Who can prove that?  I don't believe it's true.  I'd lay money that
>> Argic's choice of messages to follow up is motivated by a similar kind
>> of pattern-scanning mechanism to Kibo's (i.e. find /usr/spool/news
>> -exec grep -i turk) but I think that someone actually attempts to
>> write at least some of the prose.

>While the text was certainly written by a human at some point, it appears
>that posts are being made without any human interaction. That is, the poster
>is not only pattern-scanning, but is also auto-posting replies based on the
>results of the scan. I've sent a couple of messages to this group and
>soc.culture.turkish in an attempt to gather evidence for this hypothesis,
>and it's pretty convincing. This morning's effort should be fairly
>conclusive if Argic is in fact just a machine.

Don't forget the postings to articles on Thanksgiving turkey.  And I had
a completely unrelated followup to the aforementioned article.

>> But besides that, why should it?  UUNET's job is to funnel news to and
>> from paying customers.  Why should it decline that service from
>> anatolia just because someone's put an automaton behind it?

>I don't know enough about UUNET or the legality/morality of flooding the net
>with posts, and Argic is "flooding" a small enough segment that this
>probably isn't a problem. What if someone set up a daemon to follow up to
>every post made to every group by quoting the entire post, and adding the
>single line "Good points, John" or "I disagree, John" (chosen randomly) at
>the bottom? Given the equipment to do this quickly, this could effectively
>double the size of Usenet overnight. What if it posted five or ten followups
>to every message? What if it started following up to its own followups?
>Imminent death of the net predicted! (grin)

Small enough segment?  Take a look in news.lists:  he's made the top 10
for number of posts!  (Or was it volume?)

-- 
Ken Bibb                "he heard the snow falling faintly through the
kbibb@qualcomm.com	 universe and faintly falling, like the descent of
jester@crash.cts.com     their last end, upon all the living and the dead."
				--"The Dead", James Joyce