HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: NLCS Game #5 at 9:41
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:28:30 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Oct12.032828.9604@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>
>>Once again we see that a WALK is definitely not as vaulable as a HIT.
>
>Once again, we see people setting up straw men.  Nobody ever said it was, 
>unless there's a man on first and he's slow.

With all due respect folks, no one may have used the exact wording but, many
here have argued that OBP is a more important stat that batting average, or rbisetc and no matter how you slice it that argument - OBP > BA - boils down to
walks are as important as hits.

Simply not true!  Walks CAN be as vauluable as hits but that depends on the 
circumstances.  And since a cummulative number like OBP tells you nothing
about how, when or why a walk was obtained it is an utterly meaningless stat
by itself.

What Bonds' walk(s) prove IMHO is that with out the proper person hitting behind
you (oh that nasty protection thing again) a walk can be as equally vaulable to
the pitcher, and some times more so, as it is to a hitter.  As had been the 
case up until Sunday night, Bonds was collecting walks - his OBP must have been 
decent - the Braves were glad to let him have them and it contributed in no way
to the teams effort.

>
>But then again, it's infinitely better than an out.
>

Why is it?  With a man on third a out the walk and the out produce exactly
the same result - NO RUN!

PSG
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: barrywatch
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 06:48:20 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.051723.10338@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>
>As an aside, I assume everyone noticed that Mr. Winner, who is a
>Winner, who always pitches to the score when he gives up 4 runs, and
>never loses important games and is such a clutch performer, somehow
>didn't win.

Actually, it was a fairly typical outing of Morris'.  Except they
didn't manage to ever take the lead after he gave up those initial
three runs.  During the season, of course, he rarely got fewer than
four runs of support.

Pitches to the score?  I completed my Morris line-score file (except
for his last start), and came up with the following data.  I can
compute more numbers, if you have anything to suggest.  It's all in
the spreadsheet.  (The data entry and crosschecking was the hard
part.)

RA in innings where the score starts out:
down by 3-:	4.05  (9 R in 20 IP)
down by 1-2:	3.90  (13 R in 30 IP)
tied:		3.99  (35 R in 79 IP)
up by one:	0.76  (2 R in 23.2 IP)
up by 2-3:	4.42  (26 R in 53 IP)
up by 4+:	6.90  (23 R in 30 IP)

Morris blows a lot of leads, but apparently not when he starts the
inning with a one-run lead.  Most of those blown leads come from the
up by 2-3 category when he gives up a multiple-run inning.
Interesting.  A pitcher with whom a one-run lead seems to be safer
than a two-run lead. :-) (I can count the number of 1- and 2- run
leads blown, if you like...  Or practically anything else.  Just
tell me what you are looking for.)

Of course this may all be statistical gibberish.  Thirty innings is no
more significant than thirty decisions.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Some thoughts...
Date: 10 Oct 92 13:50:36 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in Hoboken

valentine - here i disagree with you.

i think cone is the third best pitcher in baseball (behind clemens and
 maddux), among starters.  i feel he is more overpowering than glavine
 or smoltz, despite their having obviously better e.r.a.'s over the
 last 2 years, i believe.  i don't think there's any question i'd
 rather have cone go 1,4,7 than morriss...

- bob gaj
From: schablan@csws2.ic.sunysb.edu (Sanjiv Chablaney)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: 15 Years of the Blue Jays
Date: 12 Oct 92 18:13:11 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook


	It is now 2:05 pm Eastern Standard Time on October 12th 1992
	in New York City. 

	15 Years Toronto Blue Jays have waited for this moment.
	15 Years we've had to hear from the American media  and
		American fans , how a Canadian team 
		will never or should never make it
		to the World Series.
	Well, it all ends today.

	Today, October 12th, at around 6:30 pm, the torch will
		be passed, the flag will be raised.

	America's Greatest Game will officially be a Canadian Past Time.

	Good luck Blue Jays!

	
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Sanjiv Chablaney 			  SUNY At Stony Brook
Email: schablan@ic.sunysb.edu	     "Living On A Lighted Stage, 
Toronto Blue Jays - Ya Gotta Believe!	Approaches The Unreal" - RUSH
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sgs@stein.u.washington.edu (Steven Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Birthdays
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:53:30 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle


Baseball Birthdays

October 14
Al "Scoops" Oliver, 1946
Tommy Harper, 1940
Harry "The Cat" Brecheen, 1914
Willie Mays Aikens, 1954
Hugh Casey, 1913
Art Shamsky, 1941
Kiko Garcia, 1953
Jimmy Ripple, 1909
Ed Figueroa, 1948
Joe Girardi, 1964
Bill Bathe, 1960

October 15
Jim Palmer, 1945 (HOF)
Mel "Chief" Harder, 1909
Bill Henry, 1927
George "Mule" Haas, 1903
Sammy Byrd, 1907
Mitchell Page, 1951
Sam Gray, 1897
Evar Swanson, 1902

--Steve
-- 
 sgs@u.washington.edu             * 
 Steve Smith                      * "We want a manager, not whatever that
 University of Washington HR-20   *  was we had last year." 
 Seattle, WA 98195                * 		--Woody Woodward
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Fourth mediot stat?
Summary: BAVG, HR, RBI, H
Keywords: CBS broadcast
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 05:19:02 GMT

Watching the CBS broadcast of the NLCS Game 1, I noticed they added a
stat to the traditional ones listed for each player.  We were given:
Batting Average, Home Runs, RBIs, and Hits.

My question -- what on earth are we supposed to do with Hits?  Calculate
At Bats?  It would be hard to find a more useless stat to broadcast with
the traditional three (maybe errors :->).

That aside, the coverage didn't bug me too much.  It helped that the Braves
won :->.  Congratulations to Chico "Mr. October" Lind on his home run.

--
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: RC/MLV Continued
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:36:23 GMT

In article <1992Oct11.180904.1004@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> josh@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (joshua.h.rosenbluth) writes:
>This article is a follow-up to a study comparing Marginal Lineup Value (MLV)
>to Runs Created per Out (RC/Out) for evaluating offensive individual
>
>   *  RC Value is within 2 runs of MLV for all but 7 players:  Franco, Griffey,
>      Molitor, Palmeiro, Ripken, Tartabull, and Thomas.  These are precisely
>      the high-OBP/high-SLG guys.  RC Value does a fine job for everybody else.
>
>Josh Rosenbluth (attmail!jrosenbluth)
>
>Player        RC    MLV

[list deleted except for players < -15]
>A.Davis      -16   -16
>Espinoza     -16   -17
>Fermin       -16   -16
>Guillen      -15   -16
>Jacoby       -22   -23
>James        -21   -22
>Johnson      -13   -14
>Lee          -25   -27
>Parker       -14   -15
>Pena         -20   -21
>Schofield    -24   -25
>Vizquel      -19   -20

If you look at very low-performance players, you will see that
there is a characteristic error of about 1 or 2 runs. 

Define: Individual Value= The value of the player, calculated as
                 a lineup of nine of that player (what RC does).
        Marginal Value= The value of the player, calculated by 
                 adding his stats to a lineup of 8 Joe Averages.
                 (what MLV is if you add the mean back in)

Then: The marginal value is always less than or equal to the individual
  value.
      The difference increases as the individual's rate of performance
  differs from the group's rate of performance.
      They are equal when the rates of performance are equal.

This applies at both ends of the spectrum. You are getting a hint of it
with the low-performance players in this study. But no one in the
league is low enough, with enough playing time, to really show up.
Pitchers would, if you did the NL.

At about 1/4 of league production rate, or an RC/27 of about 1, the
individual actually ceases to produce runs for the team. Not compared
to an average player; he ceases to produce runs at all. Just as the
effective rate of RC/27 is less than RC/27 for highly productive
players, so too is it less for extrememly unproductive players. When
RC/27 is less than 1, he actually reduces the number of runs the team
will score; the effective RC/27 is negative. And when the actual RC/27 
is 0, the effective RC/27 is ~ minus the league average.

I worked out a formula of

        MRC/27 = 2*sqrt(RC/27) - .9

where both Mrc/27 and RC/27 are normalized to the league average.
(i.e., divided by about 4.5)

Clay D.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: erics@sco.COM (eric smith)
Subject: Re: Jim Kat...Announcer with great insight.
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1992 18:32:30 GMT


sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan ) writes:

>I do not know as to how many will agree with me. But I 
>think that Jim is a super commentator with tremendous
>knowledge of baseball's nuances and I really enjoy
>listening to him. 

I heard maybe one or two insightful comments from Kaat and his announcer
buddy during the entire first two ALCS games. In fact when Johnny Bench
had to be brought on to replace Kaat late in the second game it was like
a breath of fresh air; at last some interesting commentary! I hope Kaat's
voice stays lost for the rest of the playoffs.

And I wish CBS would just can the "human interest" stories from Lesley
whatever-her-name-is.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@sco.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: willie@amalthea.osf.org (William Williams)
Subject: Tough game...I'm dreamin'
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Distribution: rec.sport.baseball
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:17:32


Was this what Bobby Cox said after the game, on his way over to
kiss (was that) his wife?

Well, for reasons not totally apparent to me, I found myself 
(a Red Sox fan) rooting for the Pirates in this.  But my (Pirates)
hat goes off to Bobby Cox and his gang, and also to Abner
Doubleday, or whoever is responsible for concocting a game that
can build to this: Get a hit, you get to go crazy.  make an out,
you got some ache to live down.  (Or from the pitcher's view, Get 
an out, you rejoice; else you watch in stunned envy.)

Now, Braves, go out and get Toronto.  But please don't pitch Reardon
when things are on the line.  (Doesn't Wohlers have some heat?)

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: musjndx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Jonathan N. Deitch)
Subject: NLCS Game 7 -- Incredible !!
Organization: Georgia State University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 06:08:23 GMT

Well, as everyone knows, the Braves came from behind to win the NLCS in the
bottom of the ninth 3-2 over the Pirates.

This was an absolutely incredible game and I had the good luck to *BE THERE* !

What a party !  Definately the best baseball game I've ever seen !

- Jonathan

GO BRAVES !!!

-- 
 ** Please be sure to use the address below rather than the reply address **

 Internet: jdeitch@gisatl.fidonet.org   Fidonet: Jonathan Deitch@1:133/411.7
           musjndx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu      Bellnet: 1 - (404) - 261 - 3665           
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlanta 1996 !!! | Go Braves !! | Play Pinball !! | "I hate it when I can't
--------------------------------------------------| trust my own technology!"
"Thrills!  Chills!  Magic!  Prizes!" -- Hurricane |    -- Geordi LaForge

Gene Roddenberry, Isaac Asimov, Jim Henson, Dr. Seuss, Mel Blanc ... Sigh ...

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gregh@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (G. Hurtault)
Subject: Re: Js/Braves
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 21:37:58 GMT

In article <Bw84IB.B77@ns1.nodak.edu> sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan ) writes:
>
>A question for Valentine.....
>
>What is ur prediction for the World-Series...

 I think that the Jays will beat the Braves in 6 games!!!  I don't think 
 Atlanta will be able to keep up with that Jays hitting and defence...

  
 Greg...


-- 
      -----    |                   Greg Hurtault
     /     \   |            gregh@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
     | reg___  |                 
     \______/  |  Is that a wiggle or a struggle?" "Macho King" Randy Savage
From: kmartin@sedist.cray.com (Kenneth B. Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Braves Fan Dilemma
Date: 9 Oct 92 21:13:08 GMT
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

Much has been said in the Atlanta papers and T.V. Stations about
the lack of enthusiasm at the Atlanta Fulton County Stadium.  I 
believe that the clientele that are going to the stadium plays a
big role in this.  Consider that this year many ticket holders 
are businesses and industries for the playoffs and World Series.
Due to this, many die-hard Braves fans were limited to only 5000
tickets.  Obtaining these tickets through Ticketmaster's phone
line proved to be nearly impossible.  Over 30 million calls were 
placed, and nobody I know was able to obtain tickets.  The only
way this year to have gotten a ticket was to have been a season 
ticket holder or belong to a corporation that had pre-purchased 
tickets.  So since the games are being viewed by mainly corporate
types, the enthusiasm is obviously less than ideal.  If there 
were more of the typical "six-pack drinking" Braves fans at the 
game, the emotion level would be much higher.

Let's hear some other opinions on this!

--Ken & Ron
 
--
===========================================================================
Ken Martin, Sales Analyst                   Phone:  (404) 631-2244
Cray Research South Government District     EMAIL:  kmartin@sedist.cray.com
=========================================================================== 
Organization: Administrative Systems, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 10:38:19 -0400 
From: "Thomas J. Joyce" <tj06+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Pittsburg Fans

I hear this sniping year in and year out. Fact: from 1984 on the Penguins
have been sold out......and that is with some downright awful finishes.

Fact: Based upon percentages, the Pirates have had over 90% of the
Pittsburgh population at their games. New York runs around 20%. Atlanta
runs at aroun 101%.....i.e. "Metro-Atlanta" isn't a hard border, and
draws from the nearby region. I have another interpretation; My sister lives
in Alabama and sites the lack of sports teams down there and says that
the folks down there are starved for a winner. Watching Ironhead is fun,
but isn't the same as having a team to watch. Having Alabama, Auburn and
Georgia is fine, but those aren't professional teams per se.

Yes, the Bucs draw better with a winner. Who doesn't? The Pens have been
packing them in too. So have the Steelers. When those teams are good it
just drives up ticket contention.

And one final fact: Pittsburgh is a sports town. If you aren't into
our teams and live here you'll be left on the wayside. Fans in Pittsburgh
come in one flavor: rabid.

tom j.
From: dcarter@supra.East.Sun.COM (Dave Carter-Sun-Atlanta GA-Atlanta District MCC)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Chop and chant
Date: 16 Oct 1992 14:12:02 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dcarter@supra.East.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: supra.east.sun.com

If you've never been to a Braves home game how do you know?
I have been to plenty, and it is something to see the chop and chant.
The C&C only happens during the rallies, the rest of the time it is
50,000 screaming and cheering fans. I also feel it to be intimidating to 
other teams.
---
                                      ****
                                   ********
                               ****    ***
                            ***       ***    **
                          ***         ***   ***             
                        ***    **************             
                    *************     ***   
                 ***  ***              ***    
                **   ***                ***    
                    ***                   ***       **
            ***  ****                       ****  *** 
              ****                             ****
                                x
                               x x
           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx   xxxx
           x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx     xxx
                            x       x
                           xxxxxxxxxx

                          JJJJJJJJJJJJ
                          JJJJJJJJJJJ
                              JJJ
                              JJJ
                              JJJ   xxx   ssssss
                              JJJ    xx  ss   ss
                        JJJ   JJJ        ss    
                        JJJJJJJJ         ssssss
                         JJJJJJJ               s
                          JJJJJ          ssssss 

=======================================================================
ATLANTA BRAVES: 1991 & 1992 National League CHAMPIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
========================================================================
David Carter                              SUN MICROSYSTEMS
david.carter@East                         404-392-6064
MCC                                       Atlanta, GA
========================================================================
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: jack morris, pitching to the score.
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:01:17 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <steph.718532601@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>In <92281.194556RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes:

>>second inning.  nothing apiece.  harold baines singles.  mark mcgwire
>>homers.  terry steinbach homers.  willie wilson k's.  mike bordick
>>k's.  lance blankenship k's.

>>is that great clutch pitching or what! gets to the alcs and strikes out
>>three in an inning! jack morris for mvp!

>The odd thing is that Jack Morris' line score will look better than Steve
>Avery (although they both basically had one bad inning.)  Steve did a
>better job of pitching to the score, though :->.

>Second inning aside, Jack pitched quite well.  But I don't think he should
>have pitched the ninth.  He didn't look *that* sharp.

Hey, but how about that Jeff Russell!  Winning pitcher!  1-0 record
in the ALCS!  Sure must have "won" the game for Oakland...



-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
From: mcclure@wild.ucis.vill.edu (MCCLURE HAROLD)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: JUST DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE PIRATES' INTERVIEWS
Date: 8 Oct 92 22:21:00 GMT
Organization: Villanova University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

While reading the 10/8/92 USA Today article on game #2, I noted several
rather odd quotes:

After the reported remarked at the Pirates lack of offense, they cite Bonds
as saying:

(1) "Atlanta has always been a tough park for the opposition..." Tough in re
the pitchers yes, but the launching pad is great for the hitters. Drabek, Walk, 
and Jackson may use that excuse but not the batters.

(2) "We need to go home and turn it around". Yes, you NEED to do that, but if
last year is any guide, wouldn't you prefer to stay down south? 2-1 in 
Atlanta and 1-3 in Three Rivers. I can't see where there really is that big of
a home field advantage with either of these two teams.

Of course, I did like Bobby Cox's quote: "We're up 2-0 right now, but I'm 
sure on Friday we'll be thinking of what we have to do to win Game 3".
Pitt. is on the heals right now and an Atlanta win Friday night will put them
on the ropes. If Pitt. wins instead, there may still be a real series here.
Bobby Cox should be letting the sharks out of their cages if he wants to go
to the World Series again.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: Leave McCarver Alone!!
Organization: Clark University
Date: 10 OCT 92 03:40:31 GMT

Hey, leave McCarver alone!  I think he's great.  He's funny, he's
smart, he's silly, he's cute.  Okay, he's only these things when
he's broadcasting for the Mets.  For some reason he loses his charm
when transplanted to national TV or (gag) the Olympics.  But in his
years with the Mets he's had some great moments.  Maybe it helps to
have Ralph "Driest Sense of Humor in Baseball" Kiner as a straight
man.  What Mets fan will ever forget the Great Marmalade
Controversy??  I think if Timmy just relaxes he'll do better.  
The thing is, he's outstanding during the regular season, but he
chokes in the Network Games...  

Sean McDonough, on the other hand, is a hot young prospect.  We in
Red Sox country know Sean well and admire him greatly in spite of
his professed opinion that the Sox should move out of Fenway.  He
needs more hair, though.  He should talk to Jim Kaat.  Who else
remembers Jim Kaat when he was bald as an egg?

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
From: brock@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Bradley W. Brock)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Can of corn?
Date: 9 Oct 92 21:32:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: master.1b4tp1INN6uc
Reply-To: brock@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Bradley W. Brock)
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
NNTP-Posting-Host: g210b-1.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <Bvv8pA.5r3@bunker.shel.isc-br.com> jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com  
(Gerald Lanza) writes:
> >> Does anyone know the origin of the phrase 'can of corn',
> >> used to describe an easily-caught fly ball?
> >I don't know if he originated it, but ex-Pirate broadcaster
> >Bob Prince certainly made it famous.  
> 	I recall Red Barber using that expression

> 	eating kernels of corn out of a can did
> 	away with the difficulty of removing the kernels from the
> 	cob, or eating directly off the cob

Although I don't know who originated the expression, I heard that it comes from  
the way grocers used to stock their shelves.  Apparently the top shelf was very  
high, and grocers retrieved items by knocking them down with a pole and  
catching them.  A can of corn was particularly easy to catch.
--
Bradley W. Brock, Department of Mathematics
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology  | "Honor one another above yourselves."
brock@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu       | -Paul of Tarsus to the Romans
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball