From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Pakistan: Ideals of democracy and secularism
Date: 2 Jan 1993 15:28:40 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Dec27.163516@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>
>
>It is true that many, especially in the west, tout "democracy" and "secularism"
>as the panacea to all conflicts and evils afflicting society.

No problem with that if they also allow the same right to us to
hold any other system as panancea of all conflicts and evils
afflicting the society.

>
>My belief in democracy and in secularism stems from the recognition that
>though one cannot claim secularism and democracy will necessarily end all
>conflicts, they are IMO systems which present the best approach to end
>persecution of humans based on gender, religious beliefs, race etc. because
>they originated from our belief that all people are equal. The success in ending
>misery depends a lot on the goodwill of people practicing these ideals but the

So, the argument "for" secularism and democracy is "NOT" that they
are necessarily the panacea of "all" evils, but that they have been
found to be quite useful and efficient in running today's governments.

Thus, there may be other systems that can deliver, but their lack of example
today make them unattractive. However, if Muslims think that their system
"can" deliver, and they are willing to experiment on themselves, then,
there should not be any problem in allowing them to experiment with
systems that are compatible with their beliefs and lifestyle.
>
>
>You are ofcourse right in observing that any system will try to prevent any
>subversion of its ideals. Though an "Islamic" country may not necessarily 
>subvert democracy, the idea of a theocratic state is a victim of the history of
>religious meddling in govt. seen in the west and the west has come out in the
>open (sometimes hippocritically) against the "Islamic" states.

Please, do not argument the "context" in which the experience of a "theocratic"
state in history has had negative repurcusions. The persecutions of "theocractic" states is entirely the experience of West. Our history is devoid of such
experience. In fact, the only time Muslims faced persecutions at the hands
of the court's system of beliefs was during the Mautazillah period, when
Mautzillites scholars of the court of Abbasides persecuted the Islamic
scholorrs like Imam Ahmed ibne Hanbal.  Islam or Muslim states
have never been "theocratic" or  can ever be "theocratic".  The concept
of theocracy is entirel alien to Islam. See for instance, Hasan Turabi's
vision of Sudan (I can send you the article.). 
>
>My argument is that the Quran essentially has the SAME ideals as 
>any democratic or secular system and  disagreement is really on means being
>suggested to achieve this goal. 

Then what's the problem in making Quran the constitution of a state?
If the problem is only in the mechnics then they can be worked out
through experience, right?
>Its my contention that the idea of an *Islamic
>state* is purely a human creation which took flight during and after the
>formation of the caliphates. The so-called "Islamic" laws are a set of specific
>implementation of the spirit/guidelines enunciated in the Quran and liable to be
>challenged. The structure of the state being suggested is unacceptable.
>

Here, you are totally ignoring the psyche of people who have been
subjugated and enslaved during colonization. The only way a slave
can regain his self respect and maintain his individuality 
 is NOT by copying his masters, but, developing from within his own
beliefs and lifestyle the  principles and instruments that can
make him not only equal the master but also his better. Note
that by copying you can become as equal, not suprerior!!!

See for example, why Afroamericans in USA felt the need  for and
inspiration from the "Roots", and Malcolm X by Alex Haley.
Read the books and try to see how these books instill in Blacks
awareness of their own history, pride in themselves, and inspiration
to be not only equal to blue-eyed-white-skin-former-masters, but
even better than them.







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