From: chuang@micro (Michael Chuang)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: Car vs Cycle vs Bike vs Ped--The Main Point
Date: 7 Apr 92 23:52:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: micro.9204072352.AA16639


lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
# >Richard Ottolini writes:
# >>Being both an avid driver and bicyclist I would say driver compliance with
# >>laws is much higher than bicyclists, I'd say 90% to 25%[.  .  .]
# 
# les@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Les Earnest) writes:
# >Really?  For example, 90% of all motorists obey the speed laws on
# >freeways?  I wonder where Mr. Ottolini gathers these amazing statistics.
# >
#      No Les, he said BASIC stuff....disobedience of asinine speed
#      laws is a civic DUTY, not a violation of law.
# 
#      Going from the ability and willingness to stay on the correct
#      side of the road, stopping at stop signs, etc. to speed laws
#      is a pretty big stretch.
#
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KEY POINTS:
It is true that there are too many idiots on bicycles out there.  (My
personal peeve is people riding the wrong way on a one way street at night,
without lights.)  However, these same people are most likely idiots behind
the wheel of a car too.  Please separate the (baseless and ignorant) case
against bicycles on the road from the problem of idiots on the road, whatever
their mode of transportation.

#      Besides, one would bet that the obedience is more due to
#      visibility.  Biker's CAN'T speed...and cars are a bit more
#      conspicuous cruising down the wrong side of the road.

Bikers (no apostrophe needed) CAN'T speed ?  It is quite obvious the poster
does not ride and has limited experience with cycling in general.  Most cyclists
in decent shape can exceed 30 mph, if not for long, on the flats.  This
would clearly violate speed limits in residential neighborhoods and many
downtown areas.  On reasonable downhills (around Litchfield, CT in my
personal experience) it is not difficult to reach speeds in excess of 50 mph. 
I bring this up not because of some juvenile urge to say "I can go fast too!"
but because there is the common and dangerous perception that bicycles are
ridden at speeds of 10 mph or below.  Assuming that a rider actually
travelling at 25 mph is going less than half the speed results in many cases
of pulling out (illegally, need I add) in front of the cyclist and
causing a crash. 
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RESPONSE TO STOWELL'S VIEW ON TRAFFIC REGULATIONS:
A speed limit is no more or less asinine than the requirement to come to
a complete stop before a red octogonal sign.  Understand that traffic laws
exist to make the actions of road users more predictable and hopefully
safer.  Failure to obey _any_ traffic regulation is a violation of law.
Stowell attempts to link speeding with the exalted tradition of civil
disobedience, while maintaining that rolling a stop sign, say, is a crime
that should be punished.  This is sophistry.  Violation of any traffic law is 
an example of _malum prohibitum_.  I presume that Stowell does not drive 65 
mph in residential neighborhoods because it would be irresponsible to do so, 
as the probability of striking a child, for example, is unacceptably high.  
In our culture at least, such an act (reckless or willful endangerment) would 
(should) be regarded as an act of _malum in se_, that is wrong and evil
in and of itself.   If he drives 65 on a limited-access freeway,
he probably does so because he feels that it is safe to do so in his
best judgement.  So where is the difference in rolling a stop sign ?  If
there is poor visibility, dense traffic and so forth then it's stupid and
indeed criminal (in the moral sense) to do so.  Ignoring a stop sign at a 
crossroads in the middle of a flat plain with miles of visibility is a
morally indifferent act.  The person doing so can see that there is no reason
to stop other than the fact that it is a social convention to do so.
If he chooses not to stop in such circumstances, there is no harm done.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles