Newsgroups: rec.games.moria
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 23:41:16 -0500 
From: "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages Priests -- the battle continues


ash@zapotec.math.byu.edu (ashworth nathan) writes:
> I've read several article measuring priests up to mages.   I do know
>that mage
> s  
> can get Experience points faster than any other class.  In one day
>of playing  
> my character went from Level 29 to 33. This was accomplished by using my  
> polymorph spell at the town level AND by using a wand of clone monster and  
> sveral spells of recharging.  The results were 70 YGD, 35MBD, 2ABD
>and a wide  
> assortment of several high level monsters equaling about 180,000 exp. 
> 
>   Now I've never played a priest, but I know he cannot cast polymorph or  
> Recharging and if he wanted to do what I did above he would have to
> hoard up  
> several scrolls of recharging and  a wand of polymorph and clone
monster.  If 
> I  
> was Priest I would still be bumming around at level 25 or so --
> hacking away  
> monsters.
> 
>   Another point is that the Indentify spell is far more useful than 
> anti-mage  
> proponents give it credit for.  I just don't understand how people
> can really  
> think priests are so much better than mages.
> 
> -Nathan-- Gandolfin, the level 33 mage
>  p.s.-- If some young mages out there want a detailed description of the  
> polymorph/clone/kill'em strategy speak up.

Not to be picky, but in the future could you keep posts to 75
character across?  It makes excerpting much easier...

Ok, you did the polymorph on ground level kill the 'beggars' for lots
of XP tactic.  Yes, it gets you XP but no items, and IMO it's items
that win you the game.

I don't think you appreciate the power of priests in combat, your mage
is 33rd level but you think you'd be "bumming" around 25th level as a
priest?  Well, your level would be higher than 25 (priests fight
*much* better than mages with spells).  Answer me these questions:
	How do you fight multi hued dragons with a mage?
	How do you detect invisible monsters and get to 1250'
	  ASAP with a mage?
	How do you find invisible monsters (detect evil is superior
	  to detect monsters in that it finds invisible nasties)

Mages may go up levels faster (certain with the polymorph trick), but
who's tougher.  Your 33rd level mage doesn't have nearly as many HP as
my 25th (we'll take you conservative estimate of the priests level),
and the troll fights much better in hand to hand (or don't spell
casters run out of mana?), and has *much* better attack spells.  OOD
is doing 70 points of damage to evil (read, nasty) monsters and it's
area affect.  So the priest is a lot tougher in combat, both at
dishing out and sustaining damage.

Yes, identify is useful, but a cleric with 30 scrolls of identify has
a weaker version of that (and if you accuse a cleric bouncing from 50'
to ground level of being a 'weenie', might i remind you who sat at 0'
and killed dragons at almost no risk?).  When's the last time you saw
a scroll for a glyph of warding in a store?  

I'll summarize (again)
clerics fight better physically than mages
clerics fight better magically than mages (OOD beats any attack spell)
clerics can be half trolls (the best race) and thus have more hp
mages are somewhat better outside of combat than clerics
  mages				clerics
  X detect doors/stairs		detect doors+detect stairs
  detect monsters		X detect evil
  identify			detect invisible
  haste				magic mapping
  turn stone to rock
  light area			light area
  teleport/phase door		portal

So mages have a slight edge out of combat, they have more utility
spells.  I think you overestimate identify and underappreciate stone
to mud, but that's my opinion...It's strange but I use stone to mud
about as often as identify.  So mages have some strong spells, but
clerics have magic mapping which is nice for taking on tougher
monsters, and glyph of warding which is great for slaughtering evil
iggies.  I don't know what mages do against things that are resistant
to fire (cold bolt is a pathetic spell against tough monsters).  The
real problem is that things can be resistant to mage spells, while all
tough monsters take double damage from cleric spells.  I don't even
see how it's close.  I'll take the .5 troll cleric against anything.

	joe