From: smithmc@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Lost Boy)
Subject: Re: Lost boy, please speak for yourself.
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 07:09:49 GMT

In article <34424@rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU> smezias@rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU (Stephen J. Mezias) writes:
>In article <BzH1tu.7Mz@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
>smithmc@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Lost Boy) writes in response to my post
>to him:
>
>(1) He does not believe most pro-choicers believe personhood starts in
>the 3rd trimester.  Fine.  If I misunderstood or misrepresented you,
>mea culpa.
>(2) Admits personhood is a red herring but claims it goes directly to
>the moral argument.  My only interest is in whether there are legal
>restrictions on abortions.  I believe the moral aspect of abortion is
>for each woman to decide for herself consulting whomever she pleases.

If the legal aspects of abortion is your primary interest here, no prob.
My primary interest on t.a. is usually a prochoice moral argument. The
legality of abortion is an issue which my mind is already made up on. God
knows I've been to enough clinic defenses to back my words on this.

>(3) Asserts that /z/e/f/s/ achieve some moral rights, which presumably
>are relevant to abortion, upon achieving personhood.  Please clarify.

A fetus, upon attaining personhood, IMO has a moral right to live and 
experience, and to put together a worldveiw. In order to be able to do
this, a fetus must be ABLE to put together a worldveiw. I state that in
order to do this, a fetus must be capable of higher brain function as
indicated by REM sleep. DODIE has time and time again stated that this
is not a good definition, because (according to him) higher brain function
does not begin until well birth. He has refused to state what criterion
he would use for personhood. I can only assume that his criterion for
personhood is conception, both morally and legally. This is where he and
I vigorously disagree.

Also, there are lots of ProChoicers out there who disagree with me as far
as a moral definition for personhood. I have yet to discuss this with my
prochoice friends very thouroughly.

>(4) States that people have a right to do with their bodies as they
>choose.  If I misunderstood him to say otherwise, once again, mea
>culpa.
>(5) Asks that people be kinder in asking him to make such
>clarifications as he has made here.  I did not think I was flaming him
>that much, but if the stated belief in (4) reflects the original post,
>then I probably would have been somewhat less aggressive in my
>questioning.  I have no beef with anyone who advocates (4) on t.a.

Thank you.

>(6) Says I lied in my assessment of what I read as an uncritical
>assessment of the truth of what DODIE parodies as the self-defense
>justification for abortion.   No lie intended.  To the extent I
>misunderstood LB's position and misrepresented it, I apologize.

Thank you.

>(7) Says more stuff about the morality of abortion and debating this
>with DODIE.  I humbly submit that by debating with DODIE you
>at least inadvertently must be debating law because he is pushing a
>legislative agenda of forced pregnancy.

Perhaps; I can only defend myself by saying 1) that I do not intend to
give any sort of argument for the restriction of abortion rights and 
2) if DODIE wants to place legal restrictions and claims he has a moral basis
for these restrictions then I reserve the right to challenge that moral basis.

>(8) Claims that most pro-choicers agree with his position, which
>includes 3rd trimester restrictions.  As before, I disagree.  He
>claims to base this on NARAL documents.  Please provide cites.  As a
>member of NARAL, I have always interpreted all of their positions as
>being adamantly opposed to legislative restrictions on the right to
>abortion.    

I have never stated this. If you read the original article, I stated that
most ProChoicers believe that personhood begins at birth and that *some*
ProChoicers believe it begins in the third trimester.

I'm off for the Holiday break. Merry Christmas. Merry Yule. Happy Hannukah.
Etc. Etc.


Lost Boy