HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: michaelh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Mike Hennahane)
Subject: Re: Men Not Getting It (was Re: Twice Fucked)
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 16 Nov 92 10:10:22 GMT

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>*So* much seems to rest on men not "getting it," doesn't it?
>I've always been somewhat at a loss to understand to
>understand why more men, indeed all men, don't get it.

well read on, jess.  i have the answer. :-) btw, i think that some
*women* don't get it, either.  amazing, but true.

>But even with all that, one would expect more men to have
>seen pictures from the concentration camps, or to have read
>a few accounts of lynchings or gay-bashing, or to have done
>*something*, to raise their consciousnesses about prejudice
>and oppression out of the subbasement.  I mean, it's not
>like they'd have to be rocket scientists or anything too
>taxing.

my model of human behaviour separates emotional and intellectual
understanding of issues like racism, sexism, or homophobia. take
homophobia as an example; i claim this is a reasonable model of the
stages many people go through (albeit the whirlwind description):

i grow up all through my white guy middle class life seeing
descrimination, or pictures from concentration camps, or reading gay
bashing accounts (from a comfortable white guy middle class distance).
this instills the obvious opinion that these are bad things.  this is
an intellectual position, based on lots of evidence, but i have no
real stake in the matter, so it doesn't necessarily change the way i
act.  after all, it's not happening to me, and it won't happen to me.

next, i come out to myself, but i'm not gay, right?  i start noticing
more and more how often _those_ gay people keep getting harrassed.
now i am actually reading all those articles that i just skimmed the
headlines of before. it still won't happen to me, because i'm not
*obvious*.  i'm not like _those_ gay people.  it's the offensive ones
that get in trouble, who are asking for it. white guy middle class
complacency?

finally, i start to identify more as gay, and _those_ gay people
becomes _we_ gay people.  i have a stake in the matter.  an attack on
gays is an attack on me.  *i could be next*!  anti-gay things make my
guts hurt.

i would say that it is only now that i "get it."  i am emotionally
vested and finally have an understanding of what homophobia is about
(what it feels like).  i think *emotion* makes people do more than
*intellectual* understanding does.  disappointingly few people can
abstract this out and make the connection to other forms of
discrimination, though.

in short, until it becomes personal, i don't think anyone "gets it."

--mike

ps-yes, this implies that non-women can never "get it" wrt to what
it's *really* like to be a woman (and that's it's horribly
condescending for a man to say to a woman, "oh, i know exactly how you
feel..." about anything woman-specific).  empathy is great, but i
think that we have to be aware of its limitations. (ditto on race
issues)
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Marky Mark and Calvin Klein (was Re: Scott Masden)
Date: 15 Nov 92 19:31:27 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Nov15.072409.12604@macc.wisc.edu>, anderson@macc.wisc.edu
(Jess Anderson) wrote:

> Whatever happened to Vanilla Ice, btw?  Has he completely
> melted (not a moment too soon, in my estimation)?

Well, having been in error over Marky's affiliation with the New
Kids, I must say I *believe* that you will find Vanilla Ice captured
photographic-like in SEX...  Though all you will see is a little of
his buns, and a lot of Madonna's...

*X*
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: what to do in holland?
From: Gavan_Hogg@kcbbs.gen.nz (Gavan Hogg)
Date: 21 Nov 92 20:51:30 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand

Hi, I have just returned from a week in Holland.  I picked up quite 
a few listings of gay venues, etc.  Feel free to drop me a note, letting 
me know what you are into and I will do my best to assist.

Hugs

Gavan

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: paul@psych.toronto.edu (Paul Hastings)
Subject: Re: NICE, I'LL GIVE YOU NICE!
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:37:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.181357.3975@athena.mit.edu> tcarlin@athena.mit.edu (Thomas B Carlin) writes:
>>>The Coalition of Labor Union Women has notified Colorado Gov. Roy Romer
>>>it is moving its 1993 convention -- and the approximately 1,000 to
>>>1,500 participants -- from Denver because of the state's anti-gay
>>>discrimination referendum.
>
>Is this the **niceness** we're all for?

I'm not sure I understand your point.
There should be no boycott 'cause it's not nice?

How about:
There should be no convention in Colorado 'cause IT's not nice.
                                                 ^^
                                      the state, not the con.
-paul

damn, and here I was trying to avoid politics today!  i was just s'posed 
to go home, cook up a friggin' 'mazing meal, and replicate tuesday night.

-- 
Paul Hastings    paul@psych.utoronto.ca          545 Dovercourt Road
University of Toronto      416-978-3990          Toronto, Ont.  M6H 2W5
M. Mark: I can teach you to dance with no intoxication.  (yeah, right!)   
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: chuck@fourier.ssd.kodak.com (Charles S. Collins 726-9461)
Subject: Re: Military info needed
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 15:09:19 GMT


Last week there was a segment on the MacNeil/Lehrer News Hour on "Gays in the
Military."  It focused on Margaret Kammemyer (sp?) who is fighting to be
reinstated after being discharged for admitting her lesbianism.

It was a powerful piece, including an unbelievable scene where two homophobes
(married man and woman) were accosting her in a parking lot.  The woman 
screamed at Margaret saying, "My husband fought in two wars to protect us
from people like YOU!"  And Margaret calmly replied, "No, he didn't fight
against people like me."

The film clip was followed by an interview with two military personnel
representing opposing viewpoints. It amazed me that ANYONE could support
the ban after watching that film about Margaret.  Similar to sanctioning
the crucifixion of Christ well after the fact.

BTW, Secretary of Defense Cheney has stated that he favors allowing 
gay men and lesbians to hold civilian jobs in the military.  That, of
course, would protect his friend Pete Williams.

-- 
Chuck Collins				Product Software Engineering
chuck@pixel.kodak.com			Eastman Kodak Company
(716)726-9461				901 Elmgrove Road
					Rochester, NY  14653-5811
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: gay culture
Date: 20 Nov 92 02:13:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov20.021304.3367
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Nov18.233158.11847@samba.oit.unc.edu> czmt@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Season Marie Taylor) writes:
>I went to talk to my English TA about my gay culture paper today (I posted
>something earlier about my paper).  She so graciously pointed out that
>there are many very conservative people in my class, and that one of these
>people might be the person grading my paper.  (We grade each other's papers
>in this class)  She told me that I should either write about part of gay
>culture that would not offend even the most close-minded people, or that I
>should choose another topic.

I think you should tell your English TA that if other students are not
capable of grading your paper without letting their prejudices
influence their judgment, then those students should not be grading
papers at all.

If your TA refuses to listen, then complain to the professor. If that
doesn't work, talk to the head of the department, or the Dean of
Students, or the college paper, or the fucking president if it's
necessary.

>This is what I want to write about, and I don't care who I offend in my class.

Right on! Just make sure you don't get punished for it. Academics
understand the idea of academic freedom, and principled academics
would be shocked at the advice your TA gave you.
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                   There is absolutely no other possibility
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: Bear Crap
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 04:11:38 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.014831.25069@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>In article <69575@cup.portal.com> Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>>I find it interesting that when the Bears are discussing what they
>>find attractive in this forum, we get the cries of "Oh no, all that
>>Bear crap again!"

>Could someone provide me with a recent example of this, like say a
>direct quote or a reference to an article I'm likely to remember? 

I can't think of anybody complaining about bear crap, but
there have certainly been cries of "Oh no, all that Furr
crap again!"  Not the same thing at all, although it may
appear that way to George.
--
           Hate is not a family value.  Boycott Colorado

       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
From: bearcub@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (The Husky Cub)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Bears and twinks, Oh my!
Date: 22 Nov 1992 21:54:20 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: bearcub@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

	In my personal experiences with my tastes in men, it seems that the
it seems that the people who know my tastes, respect them in every way
possible. It intrigues my straight friends that I am not a stereotypic 
homosexual in their minds. If I just told them that I was gay and that I'm
in love and left it that, they would assume that I'm in love with a young
strapping muscular "twink". It seems to me that they were sorta relieved
finding out that the "young strapping buck" didn't fall within my physical
tastes. It was fun to educate them about "bears" and bear-dom. They thought
it was interesting to learn about another form of gay society that obviously
they didn't know about. The reason they were "sorta relieved" is mainly
because most of my straight male friends from high school and such are 
young, fairly attractive, and, in my eyes, would catch the glimpse from
gays who enjoy the thinner, smoother, muscular types. 
	So now, I have caught the complete respect from all of my straight
friends for being myself and not worrying about being "like other gays"
and going for what I like. (And I got him! :) )
	As far as other gays that I have shared my tastes with, I have re-
ceived god and bad vibes about bear-dom, chubby-chasing, and the likes.
Most of the people that think I am "weird" or think that I am a freak,
just don't have a clue. Most of them just don't have an open enough mind
to grasp the concept that there are people in the world who have different
tastes in men. Usually after I educate them on that concept, their minds are
rested. I don't shove my tastes down people's throats. I would be asking
for trouble if I did that. I respect people who have different tastes than
I do. The world is fiiled with them. I guess I just know how to get along with
different people. 
	Marky Mark? No. He's not for me. But I'm not going to get on 
a person's case because they think he is a dreamboat and they would do any
thing to touch his pecs. I'd want the same respect if I told some one that
I'd do almost anything to spend one night with Ray Traylor. (For any
WWF wresting fans out there, he's better known as Big Bossman). 

	So show some respect for others in the sense of tastes in men. 
Or as Jerry Springer would say, "Take care of yourselves..and each other."

*hugs*

Bearcub
different tastes in men.        


-- 
========================bearcub@csd4.csd.uwm.edu==========================
<  B1/B2 c+(+!) g f k(+)? w s-   <---Newly revised bear codes of me      >
<  I'm a cross between Freddie Mercury and Big Bossman.                  > 
==========================================================================
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Bear Crap
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:30:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Nov23.173027.2750
Organization: insert anything here

thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:
>rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:

>>glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson) writes:
>>>|> And this is just one example.... It goes on *much* further.
>>>Space Aliens?  

>>	No they're pretty hairless...

>No, BBC, you're WRONG! It's just that the fascist twink-leaning
>tabloid media ignores all incidences of hot beefy bearMartians
>in deference to the trite, cliche 'sightings' of slim, smooth,
>hairless aliens. It's looksism, pure and simple. (And do you
>notice how even when the aliens are supposedly centuries old,
>they're shown and described as 'childlike'? Ageism, I think.)

	Didja ever notice that all the aliens you see in 
all the SF (say, OH  Star Trek), all the civilizations are
only a few millenia away from each other in evolution?

	A few millenia is a drop in the bucket time-wise.
There are stars nearby that are perfect pictures of what the
Sun will be like in a few tens of MILLIONS of years...
Considering that "man" as we know it has been on the planet
what, 4 million years or so... what are we going to be like
4 million years from now (assuming the answer isn't dead)?
No matter how creative one is all SF cultures end up being
more-than-slightly humanocentric, if only so the
viewing public can in any way indentify with them...

	One of the more interesting things about all the UFOanelia
that gets tossed around is that the aliens don't seem to make 
any sense - as if something that "alien" should...  :-)

	If/when we encounter something out there, it will
probably be so incredibly different than we are that we
could probably be staring t a "message" for quite a whlie
and not even recognize it's there...

	Actually all things considered it's not such a big
gamble - the hardest part is not assuming there is something out
there it's how to look for it.  The Senate bitched and whined
about funding $10M for SETI (that's < 1% of a nuclear sub, BTW)
yet the survey part of it is easy.  The spectroscopy end of things
is a nightmare - where do you start?  IF we could figure that part
out, I think we'd soon tap into the glactic version of the I-net
in short order...

BBC
(rdonahue@spdcc.us.earth.sol)
[no there will never be a "gaia" in there!]

P.S.  SETI is now HRMS and is intact ---- for the moment.
PPS. Anyone who has a > ~1.5m scope in the southern hemisphere
going unused and wants to have some fun - let me know :-)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics,co.general,talk.politics.misc,co.politics.amend2.discuss,boulder.general,csu.general
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: Support the boycott (was Re: Don't boycott all of Colorado)
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:22:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.230922.8206@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> taylorje@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (TAYLOR JASON EDMOND) writes:
>   Notice how the strongest supporters of boycotting Colorado live outside the
>state? A boycott is a very easy thing to talk about when it doesn't impact your
>everyday lives, isn't it?

That's a pretty narrow view.  Your state paved the way for
other states to enact similar legislation.  Your state just
voted my rights away.  It matters to me a great deal, and
it does have an impact on my life.  I urge you to read a
history of the civil rights movement.

And for those (straight and gay alike) who are not
participating in a boycott, I think it would be great if
you all would write or stamp "GAY $$$" on your paper money
(no, it's not illegal) and write it on your checks if you
spend money in Colorado.
--
           Hate is not a family value.  Boycott Colorado

       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: My nervous little boy
Date: 17 Nov 1992 18:06:14 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <thaaang.721976367@cwis> 
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> >I have become a not-so-bad cook.  My secret?  The fabulous cookbooks 
> >_Cucina Fresca_ and _Cucina Rustica_ by Vianna La Place and Evan Kleiman.
>
> But... but...

You heard me, young man.

> >_Cucina Fresca_, in particular, could have been designed for people 
> >just beginning to cook.  The recipes are clear and not at all tricky, 
> >and the food is wonderful.

What makes _Cucina Fresca_ so good for a beginning cook
is that the recipes are for simple (but *very* tasty) Tuscan
dishes that are meant to be eaten at room temperature.  So
if you're nervous because you don't know what you're doing
anyway, you don't have to worry about cooking two or three
things at once. 

> But... Joan! What about Joan! She was your mentor! How... what...

It was time for me to cut the umbilical cord and, free at last,
soar into the stratosphere.  (OK, so I mixed my metaphors, but
you get what I mean.)

> >Six months ago I didn't know how to make
> >mashed potatoes.  Now I'm making things like pan-steamed sage
> >potatoes,

They're so simple and *so* good.

> >salmon scallops in peppercorn vinaigrette,

Yum yum.

> >pollo tonnato.

Yummy yummy.

> >I'm making aioli.  Lemon mayonnaise.  My favorite
> >dish so far?  It's a pasta dish that, if made for 4 people, calls
> >for *twenty* cloves of garlic.  Sheer heaven.

Let me say it again -- sheer heaven.  Homemade bread crumbs
fried in extra virgin olive oil and tons of garlic.  Garlic,
red pepper flakes, and olive oil.  Tomatoes and garlic.  Pasta.
It's *magnificent*.

> Father! What about the bacon? All that nummy lard! I was *so*
> hoping when the family finally got together we'd cozy up with
> a big plate of cholesterol and bond around a hog... Oh, how
> could you do this to me?

I'm sorry, Johnny-boy, but I just don't eat that stuff
any longer.  But we can still cozy up and bond around 
shrimp in a spicy lime marinade. 

> John, world crumbling to Bac-o's around him

Arne, wondering what to cook for himself tonight.
From: cbe@unlinfo.unl.edu (cbe)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Colorado: My 2 cents
Date: 17 Nov 1992 23:55:04 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: unlinfo.unl.edu

tcarlin@athena.mit.edu (Thomas B. Carlin) writes:

>Read it, read it, seen it, done it.  Now I have decided.

>Last night on one of the nighly news (I watch them all, could have been any),
>they were talking about the vote in Oregon being 53% to 47%, and how the wacko's
>who proposed the thing were gearing up for another challenge come June.

>Panic buttom!  Go to red alert!

>Knowing that voting in off year elections tends to be poor, and poor turnouts
>typically hurt liberal causes, I decided that the most logical way to prevent
>this is to **_REALLY_** lay it on Colorado.

>Follow this logic you say.

>53-47 is too close for comfort on something this important.  The people of
>Oregon _must_ be convinced that voting for such a law is NOT in their best
>interest.  How?  By severely punishing those that vote such a law.

>Colorado must be destroyed.  It must have ABSOLUTELY the *****WORST***** ski
>season in history (with the state of the economy, not hard).  ALL of COLORADO
>must suffer.  What about the innocent, and those who are actually
>lesbigay-friendly --- CANNON FODDER!  Colorado must be destroyed!  It must
>become an economic wasteland, it must become Catherage (sp??) -- destroyed to the
>ground and the earth salted!

>And Oregon?  Pump money.  Pump very openly lesbigay-pink-money into the economy.
> Why?  As we sow, so _can_ we reap.  With the death of Colorado and very open
>money in Oregon, we can show that this shit won't wash.

>DEATH TO COLORADO!

*Please*.....that is KKKolorado or Bigotorado.


>And, as far as the innocents -- leave now!  And remember, in order for Paris to
>become the City of Light, over 250,000 poor were made homeless so that Napolean
>III could tear down their neighborhoods to make the wide streets!  His answer:
>the poor will die anyhow, but Paris will live forever!

Vivre l'empereur!!  <GACK!>


Colburn Eigen                            H|u> = E|u>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Cheese-Louise
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:46:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.164556.25749@osf.org> coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
>[Explanation for the New-England-impaired: March 17th is an official
>holiday of Suffolk County, MA, which includes Boston and precious
>little else. The bizarre name apparently refers to the occasion of the
>British Army evacuating -- i.e., departing -- from Boston, during the
>Revolutionary War. It is generally recognized that this holiday exists
>for the sole purpose of allowing the (largely Irish) employees of the
>City of Boston to spend St. Patrick's day in the appropriate fashion
>(i.e., getting plastered).]

As an Irish-American, I resent this!  The purpose of Evacuation Day is
to allow folks to attend the St. Patrick's Day Parade and boo the Gay
Irish group as they pass by, surrounded by police.  AND get plastered.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Marky Mark and Calvin Klein
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:54:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.015234.25645@reed.edu>, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
> In article <1992Nov15.202552.4778@quantime.co.uk> roger@quantime.co.uk
> (Roger Phillips) writes, quoting "Face":
> >Marky Mark _is_ a rapper ... he is a pop icon, fashion icon and now
> >gay icon.'
> 
> Just like Marlene Dietrich!

Yes, the resemblance is quite breathtaking, is it not?


--
Death to all fanatics!!

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: River Phoenix (was Re: Sucking on Keanu Reeves)
Date: 19 Nov 92 19:11:21 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <Bxz59n.12w@hpuerca.atl.hp.com>, kfj@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Kirk
Johanning) wrote:

> P.P.S: I just finally had to change the subject line from "Sucking on
> Keanu Reeves" since we are no longer talking about him, although I
> certainly thought that, if nothing else, it was an attention grabber.

Oh, pooh.  But now we're talking about River Phoenix, so why didn't
you name the thread SUCKING on RIVER PHOENIX?!!  Which reminds me
of an early scene in Private Idaho...

*X*
Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.pets.cats