HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eric@cs.ruu.nl (Eric Nieuwland)
Subject: Re: El Al 747 Crash in Amsterdam
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 09:08:34 GMT
Organization: SERC/RUU
Followup-To: sci.aeronautics

cid@athena.mit.edu (Derek H Cedillo) wrote:
> john@newave.newave.mn.org (John A. Weeks III) writes:
> >Personally, with the 747 doing a circle over a lake with two engines on
> >fire, I think the pilot had a responsibility to dump the plane in the
> >water rather than flying into a densely populated area loaded with fuel.
> 
> I agree with you.  However a survey of 747 pilots said that it is nearly
> impossible to recover control of a 747 that loses two engines with 
> such little altitude.  actually I think they said Impossible.  
> particulaly a heavy loaded plane such as a cargo causes
> even more problems.  The first thing they should do is jettison that
> fuel.   The pilots did this.  Second thing to do is to regain your altitude.
> The jettisoning of fuel would lighten the load to regain control.
> The falling rate is something of at least 1500 ft/min i believe,
> (please correct me if I am wrong)  In a plane where two engines
> are lost as well as the included hydrolic systems,
> a 1500 ft/min falling rate doesnt give you much time to react.
> I am sure the pilots did thier best.  I could be wrong, since
> I am basing my view on preliminary reports.  Thus, 
> anyone can feel free to correct me.

[ Context = Amsterdam crash ]

One of the engines was recovered from, well yes, a lake. The lake however
is not that big and given the situation it would be quite spectacular
precision work to hit it.
Due to the loss of the right engines, the pilot was forced to take right
turns. This brought him over land anyway.
[ BTW The engine found included its wing mount, so it ripped off at the
wing.
      With all the talk about locking pins, could anyone tell me where they
      are located? I thought they lock the engine to the mount             
]

As I understand it, the pilot never really knew he *lost* an engine. So he
never fully could have understood his situation. He did manage to loose
some
of the fuel, but not nearly enough. Some 'experts' say he lost only 20%,
other say the plane carried some 90.000 liters when it went down.
A professional 747 pilot said you can't just dump the fuel because this
would
endanger the plane.

The flight controllers at Schiphol (the airport) say the pilot reported
quick
loss of altitude just before the "We're going down" message came. Actually,
the plane was making an *extra* turn to loose height. This either means the
pilot was not at all capable of handling a two-engines-out situation, which
I
doubt given the training schemes, or the plane suddenly lost height because
it was damaged.

Sour thing to think about: if they could have staid in the air for just
some
more seconds they would have hit the business centre, at sunday evening.
:-(
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: bdd0066@venus.tamu.edu (bryan duke)
Subject: Re: 747 (size)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 02:59:00 GMT

In article <PswasB4w165w@netlink.cts.com>, bigbro@netlink.cts.com (Kenneth Sullivan) writes...
>Does anyone know the approximate size specifacations of the 747?

747-200B

Length		4.381E-2 miles				(231.33 ft)
Wing Span	3.705E-2 miles				(195.66 ft)


--
;)  bryan
From: casper@fwi.uva.nl (Casper H.S. Dik)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Re: Aplogy to Robert Dorsett & More on El Al Disaster
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:52:13 GMT
Organization: FWI, University of Amsterdam

chris@airdata.socal.com (Chris J. Davis) writes:

>i caught the tail end of a news report the other day that announced
>that the flight data recorder had been located.  was any of the data
>readable?

After examinations of the FDR in Britain proved fruitless, it was
send to the NTSB in Washington. They were able to retrieve most of
the data of the last 15 minutes of the flight. It now appears
that both starboord engines were lost a few miles out.
There was a short power outage during the flight, probably at
the moment the engine fell off.

Only parts of the #3 engine have been found sofar. The #4 engine
has been found largely undamaged (i.e., no damage other than damage
cause by the fall down). Current hypothesis is a chain reaction
started by the failure of #3 engine. Cause of the failure yet unknown.
Today more fragments of a jet engine were found. Probably further
debris from #3. (did the engine desintegrate totally in flight?)

The plane was in controlled flight after it lost both engines.
Loss of control occured only after the plane had flown a full circle
to lose altitude.

The earth at the crash site is being dug up looking for yet more
pieces of Boeing (and possibly more human remains).

One of the bodies identified today was the body of the El Al
passenger.

Casper
From: miller@b-mrda.ca.boeing.com (Mark Miller)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Re: Re: Most evil looking....
Date: 7 Oct 92 18:51:29 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplanes MR&D

My vote goes to the B-52 on a low-level bomb run. I have observed many
of them on takeoff and landing, and seen films of bomb runs from the
ground. The sight and the sound from those eight engines (not to
mention the smoke) are menacing. They look like huge birds of prey!


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark R. Miller                     | 
Boeing Commercial Airplane Company | 
Seattle, WA                        | 
Internet: miller@b-mrda.boeing.com | 
Voicenet: (206) 237-0960           |  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Re: Women Aces...
Date: 15 Oct 1992 02:07:01 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu



>   trivia questions are recreational, no?

Sometimes.  Sometimes interesting facts are useful.

>   keep them in rec.aviation.* and out of sci.*, please.

Seeings you are the only objector, I'll continue in the same way I
always have.

>         "Free Advice and Opinions -- Refunds Available"

Your opinion was exactly worth what I paid for it.

Good day.

Al Bowers  ...lead aero, NASA F-18 High Alpha Research Vehicle Project...

Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: El Al 747 Crash in Amsterdam
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 17:26:47 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <1992Oct7.103716.8773@fwi.uva.nl> casper@fwi.uva.nl (Casper H.S. Dik) writes:
>>... eyewitnesses claim the explosion
>>was *before* they saw the plane at "a strange angle".
>
>Never trust an eyewitness. Some eyewitness have reported the 'plane
>hitting another highrise first and hitting the metro tracks...

I'm told that no matter what the circumstances of the crash, if you try,
you can almost *always* find eyewitnesses who claim to have seen explosion
and/or fire, even if there unquestionably was none.  It's common for
eyewitness accounts, especially ones obtained well after the event, to
disagree greatly with each other and with the known facts.
-- 
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
From: cm9@prism.gatech.EDU (MCKEITHAN,CLIFFORD M.)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Re: Inflatable aircraft
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:50:36 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Goodyear developed a few inflateable aircraft for the Army
during the 50's or 60's.  You might glean some info from
their experience.




-- 
MCKEITHAN,CLIFFORD M.
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:     ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!cm9
Internet: cm9@prism.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Aurora FAQ???
From: mgeorgy@vmsclst1.sc.csupomona.edu
Date: 10 Oct 92 12:02:53 PDT
Organization: Computer Science Computational Systems
Nntp-Posting-User: mgeorgy

Can anyone tell me if either this group or Sci.Military has composed a FAQ on
the Aurora. Last I heard one was being put together but nothing since.  

Please reply by posting directly to the Net, as my mail system isn't working
properly...

Thanx,
MG
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: berner@b-mrda.ca.boeing.com (Ann Berner)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Re: Crash causes and faults [Long] (was Re: El Al 747...)
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:55:19 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplanes MR&D

/ b-mrda:sci.aeronautics / bigbro@netlink.cts.com (Kenneth Sullivan) /  6:03 pm  Oct  7, 1992 /
Does anyone know the approximate size specifacations of the 747?

--                    
INTERNET:  bigbro@netlink.cts.com (Kenneth Sullivan)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!bigbro
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115


Approximate numbers (for 747-400):

Wingspan:  211 ft
Length:    232 ft
Height of top of upper deck: 32 ft
Height of top of vert. stab: 63 ft
Span of horiz. stab:	     73 ft

Wing area (S): 5500 sq ft
Wing mean aero chord (MAC): 27 ft

Weight in flight:  500,000 to 600,000 lbs

_____________________________________________________________________________
Ann Berner						Opinions expressed are
Boeing Commercial Airplanes				mine alone; I do not
berner@b-mrda.boeing.com				speak for Boeing.

----------
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: griffith@acuson.com (Paul Griffiths)
Subject: Re: Aplogy to Robert Dorsett & More on El Al Disaster
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 19:06:44 GMT

rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett) writes:
[Engine details deleted]


>>[...]
>>> It would take a lot more than one bird in an engine to cause serious
>>> problems like an uncontained failure.
>>
>> doesn't this depend on the size/mass of the bird?  what about one _big_
>> bird?  (no derek, not the one on sesame street).

>This is something a lot of people don't seem to appreciate: Schiphol is
>notorious for severe bird problems, being close to the sea.  Radome, wing, 
>and engine damage is common.  Since birds flying around *may* have 
>been big sea birds, I can see how collision with a flock is, at the very 
>least, conceivable.

>Anyone out there know anything about birds, esp. those that migrate through 
>the Amsterdam area?




>---
>Robert Dorsett
>rdd@cactus.org
>...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd

> Vote on sci.aeronautics.airliners!   See the CFV in news.announce.newgroups,
> or send email to airliner-vote-admin@rascal.ics.utexas.edu for a copy of it.


	I have seen numerous "science" shows on the bird problem within
Holland.  Indeed the Dutch Air force reports the most bird strikes of
any armed service.  Rather than getting into the complex migratory
patterns of the European birds, suffice to say a LOT of 'em end
up flying/landing in Holland.  
	This same show,(Beyond 2000) was showing how Dutch Airport authorities 
are trying to find ways to use 'radar', pilot reports, and the known
migration patterns of birds to keep the risk of a serious bird strike
low.  Unfortunately it seems that the inevitable may have happened.
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu (Marshal "Airborne" Perlman)
Subject: Re: Inflatable aircraft
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 22:18:04 GMT

doi@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Daniel Kuan Li Oi) writes:

>	Apart from the Goodyear aicraft, I am sure I saw an article on
>an inflatable Human Powered Aircraft somewhere.  It looked like a giant
>long air mattress.  It was filled with air but I suppose it could have
>been filled with Helium in order to give some measure of bouyancy.

>					Daniel Oi
>					University of Western Australia

Funny you speak of that..one of my professors at college here few those.

He said it was funny..everytime you changed altitute..you'd have to modify
the AIR in the plane itself..and if you didn't keep up...you'd crash! He
modified it by hooking an air pump that was attached near his arms, and
was easier to get at...

Hmmm what else can I tell you..the rudder was like a joke, it was
a wire that went around special shoes..and it was one wire that made 
a loop around your feet to the tail...

Uh..what else did he say...o yea..there were, I think, 8 pilots
total...1 died in a crash... =:(

For historical background..my teachers name is Bob Solliday..I dunno
if it is text anywhere..isit?
--
           Marshal Perlman <> Florida Institute of Technology 
                    ***** perlman@zach.fit.edu ***** 
               Private Pilot - Airplane Single-Engine Land

Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Most evil looking mother that ever flew (was Re: F-23 Dead? Nahh....
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 17:20:28 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <1992Oct7.004534.5401@athena.mit.edu> cid@athena.mit.edu (Derek H Cedillo) writes:
>... Anyhow, this sam runs right up the 
>"tailpipe" and explodes inside the A/B casing.  Obviously he destroyed the 
>engine.  But, the pilot simply cut fuel to that engine, and came home on 
>engine number two...

Actually, the Israelis have had a number of cases of *single-engine*
aircraft coming home after taking a SAM hit in the tailpipe.  The older
Soviet man-portable ones in particular tended to explode a little too
early and a little too feebly to take the engine out.  Usually.  Which
is why you see extended tailpipes on Israeli Skyhawks...
-- 
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Date: Tuesday, 13 Oct 1992 15:49:13 EST
From: <AERE7114@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Re: Most evil looking mother that ever flew (was Re: F-23 Dead? Nahh..
Distribution: usa
 <1992Sep30.204741.25175@av8r.uucp> <BvG3y1.93u@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
 <1992Oct7.004534.5401@athena.mit.edu>

Good F/A-18 story.  There another unbelievable story about an F-15E Strike
Eagle that lost an entire wing with only a stub left, and the plane was
still flyable, only at 250 knots though. If the pilot increased or
decreased speed, the aircraft rolled.  They believed that it was still
flyable because of the fair sized tail wings (I always forgot the damn name).
which kept the aircraft aloft.
I read this in "Firebreak" by Richard Herman.  He used this true story at the
end of the story.  Not a bad book either.
Check six.
Paul
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: Re: El Al 747 Crash in Amsterdam
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:12:26 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.102757.8462@fwi.uva.nl> casper@fwi.uva.nl (Casper H.S. Dik) writes:
>eric@cs.ruu.nl (Eric Nieuwland) writes:
>
>>According to my information, the plane lost its hydraulics just before
>>it went down. I don't know whether this is speculative or a known fact.
>
>>My question then is: What can make a 747-200F loose its hydraulics and
>>is there no mechanical back-up?
>
>No pilot in the world is strong enough to move the control surfaces of
>a 747 by hand.

Well, that's debatable.  Let's just say the mission profile and configuration
of the 747 (or any large transport) is not amenable to direct control for all 
phases of flight.  The actual forces, for many phases, are, in fact, within 
human capabilities, but not for any sustained period of time (PUSH--hold--
HEAVE--ho... :-)).


> There is mechanical backup for the lowering of the
>landing gear and, presumably, flaps. 

There is no mechanical backup for the landing gear or flaps.  I seem to recall 
electric actuation for the slats, but I'm probably confusing it with the 727.  


For the record, the 747 has four completely independent hydraulic systems,
numbered 1 through 4.  Each hydraulic system has one engine-driven pump
and one air-driven pump.

I find the odds of anything happening on the right side of the airplane
affecting the hydraulic systems powered by the left side of the airplane 
improbable, at best.  Let's put this one down as "unfounded rumor," probably 
motivated by unfocused comparisons with the AAL O'Hare DC-10 crash (which in 
itself wasn't the result of *complete* hydraulic failure, only bad design of 
the slat locking mechanism).




---
Robert Dorsett
rdd@cactus.org
...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: 747
From: bigbro@netlink.cts.com (Kenneth Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 18:03:36 PDT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

Does anyone know the approximate size specifacations of the 747?

--                    
INTERNET:  bigbro@netlink.cts.com (Kenneth Sullivan)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!bigbro
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
From: casper@fwi.uva.nl (Casper H.S. Dik)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Re: El Al 747 Crash in Amsterdam
Date: 7 Oct 92 10:27:57 GMT
Organization: FWI, University of Amsterdam

eric@cs.ruu.nl (Eric Nieuwland) writes:

>According to my information, the plane lost its hydraulics just before
>it went down. I don't know whether this is speculative or a known fact.

>My question then is: What can make a 747-200F loose its hydraulics and
>is there no mechanical back-up?

No pilot in the world is strong enough to move the control surfaces of
a 747 by hand. There is mechanical backup for the lowering of the
landing gear and, presumably, flaps. When your engines are gone from
the wing, part of your hydraulics go with it.

>A 747 pilot said they know when an engine is on fire and when it has
>reduces thrust, but they don't know if the engine is at all there!
>It seems to me that this knowledge would greatly influence decisions
>to be made in emergency situations. It wouldn't be too hard to detect
>loss of an engine either. So why isn't it done?

Things like this are being done. Plans are to fit 'planes with
video cameras that give a few on most of the 'plane. One camera in
the top of the tail gives most of the view you need. Some thought has
to go in the disabling of the camera in the case of a hijack.
You wouldn't want the hijackers to have a good few of surroundings
when the plane is on the ground.

Casper
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: ahpman@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (James Baronowsky)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Wing aero.
Keywords: Help?
Date: 10 Oct 92 04:42:29 GMT
Distribution: sci.aeronautics
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center


	   Hello to all.  I have a bit of a question to ask all of those who read
	this group.  I am writing a research paper on wing aerodynamics and 
	aerodynamic enhancers( eg. laminar flow control, riblets, etc.)  I have
	noticed that a lot of the readers/responders are writing from major
	aircariers and even NASA.  If anyone can give me a hand on where to dig 	up info. I would be eternaly greatful.
	   Thanks!
		James B.
 
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Re: Inflatable aircraft
Reply-To: pt@geovision.gvc.com
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 19:01:24 GMT

Looking in my local Yellow Pages, I saw the following:

Vivian L R Associates LTD
"THE WAY IT WILL BE IN CENTURY 21

 The New Canadian Hybrid Aircraft

 Helium Fill, Rigid Body, VTOL

 Fax 416 785-5396
 Phone: 416 789-3407"

I can't tell whether this is a LTA, or an air filled wing HTA.


-- 
Paul Tomblin, pt@geovision.gvc.com
(This is not an official opinion/statement of GeoVision Systems Inc.)
"There is nothing wrong with making up .signature quotes, but... make *new*
ones." - Apologies to Henry Spencer and D.Sim
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics,rec.travel.air
From: hiflier@cup.portal.com (John T Parker)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Re: Inflatable aircraft
Date: Thu,  8 Oct 92 17:34:21 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <1ateroINNak9@sal-sun63.usc.edu> <SHAFER.92Oct6204957@ra.dfrf.nasa.gov>

The GoodYear inflatable plane (at least one of them), is located
in the Naval Air Test and Evaluation Museum in Patuxent River
Maryland. It is abit saggy.....
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
From: caraher@pn32.petnet.med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Most evil looking mother that ever flew (was Re: F-23 Dead? Nahh..
Organization: pet/cyclotron
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 20:28:26 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.121309.13560@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
mtissand@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael D Tissandier) writes:
>  I was under the impression that it was a collision between an Israeli
>Eagle and an A-4 Skyhawk.  I believe B. Sweetman mentions this in his
>YF-22/YF-23 book.  If it was Israeli, it couldn't have been a Strike Eagle.
>
>   --Mike
>
I believe that's right. Someone from McDonell-Douglas spoke to our AIAA student
chapter not very long after that happened and had pictures of the F-15. It was
pretty amazing that the thing could fly at all!
Xref: sparky sci.aeronautics:2255 sci.astro:10553 sci.bio:3514 sci.edu:1084
From: mtj@babar.asd.sgi.com (Michael Jones)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Why ask why? [was Re: TEEN TALK BARBIE]
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:15:11 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: babar.asd.sgi.com

In article <TOM.92Oct8202802@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com>, tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley) writes:
|> As long as we aren't talking about anything related to astronomy or any of
|> the other newsgroups in the header, has it occured to anyone that the Bud
|> Dry slogan is infinitely more destructive than "Math is hard"? They have
|> an entire campaign built on the slogan "Why ask why?".
|> 
|> This doesn't just discourage studying math, it is a campaign to actively
|> discourage the spirit of investigation and curiosity that is at the
|> foundation not only of science, but also of exploration and theology! They
|> want you to forget all that crap, and just drink beer instead!
|> 
|> Where is all the moral outrage this insidious campaign should be generating?
|> After all, a lot more people drink beer than play with barbie dolls...

Why ask why?

Just kidding, I'm not too impressed with that slogan either. It also seems
to encourage alcoholism (life tuff? confused? HAVE A DRINK!). I was amazed
the first time I saw it. I accept as a part of television culture that the
people who watch the programs with beer advertising (football, wrestling,
fishing, and such) have different world-views than I do judge ideas like
this one differently.

Perhaps they don't think about the words, just seeing the almost naked girls 
and forming some basic association like "sexy women+fun+carefree == brand X beer".

Be seeing you,      mtj@sgi.com  415.390.1455  M/S 7L-590
Michael Jones       Silicon Graphics, Advanced Graphics Division
                    2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mtn. View, CA 94039-7311
From: jbatka@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics
Subject: Soviet Bomber Structural data & PoCs
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:19:16 GMT
Organization: Wright State University

Hi all,

I am looking for any information concerning soviet bomber structural
design.  Specifically the Blackjack and Bear (Tu-160 & Tu-95/142) wing
construction.  I am interested in material types, material thicknesses,
number (and locations) of spars and stringers, etc.  A scaled cross-
sectional drawing would be perfect.

Any information concerning points of contact, potential sources (e.g.
US AF Museum), and actual data would be greatly appreciated.

Email me if you have any information or questions, THANKS!
-- 

   Jim Batka  | Always remember ...                        | Buckaroo
   Modemman   |    No matter where you go, there you are!  |   Bonzai
--------------+--------------------------------------------+--------------
Very often it | Work Email:  BATKAJ@CCMAIL.DAYTON.SAIC.COM | Elvis is
is easier to  | Home Email:  JBATKA@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU      |   DEAD!
get forgive-  |--------------------------------------------+--------------
ness then     | 64 years is 33,661,440 minutes ...         | Beatles:
permission.   |    and a minute is a LONG time!            |   Yellow Submarine