Newsgroups: sci.econ

>I'll look for explicit reference.
>

Please do.

>  Not at all, this is just an example of the founding fathers making a 
>  comromise favoring property holders that is explicitly in the constitution.
>  It should surprise no one that the founders would find property rights
>  important, they were in general large property holders.

<You claim that we should accept the premise of an economy based on 
<property rights because the "founders" did so.
<I dispute this claim on two grounds. First, the "founders" differed amongst
<themselves as to the importance of "private property" and changed their
<opinions over time. For example, Jefferson began by attacking any tarrifs
<but later supported them. And the views of Paine, Jefferson, and 
<Monroe were far indeed from the views of Hamilton and Adams.
<My second objection is that the "founders" morality and economics is
<something that should not be accepted as revealed truth. Read Patrick
<Henry's attacks on the Constitution to see some of the really bizzare
<moral and legal twistings required to justify slavery as a "liberty"
<(of the slaveowners).

I wont argue that views changed over time or that the founders were not of a 
signgle mind. I agree. The justification of slavery was tortured. The right
to aquire and keep property was, however, important to virtually all of them
and was strongly supported. Freedom and equality of opportunity (though not 
stated as such) were principles as was the right to aquire property. To me
the right to property is basic to a successful market economy. IMHO the 
unleased greed/motivation seems to be basic to a high performing economy.
It has other benefits as well, it distributes power into many hands and 
brings an accountability mechanism into an economy that is difficult to achieve
otherwise. Lack of accountability, poor motivation, concentrated power tend
to be problems in non market economies. Private property and freedom of action
overcome these issues, not without social cost. The US economic track record
being good, private property being key to this, I say we should keep it.
I say this particularly in view of the poor record of state run
economies. Their collective track record stinks.


>But, I repeat, this GNP is an average of two distinct economies. 
>One could similarly claim that Senegal/France has a relatively high
>GNP/per capita. In fact, Transkei, Bop, Kwa Zulu, and the other
>homelands feature rural poverty as bleak and terrible as anywhere in the
>world.

Two economies ok, same was true in the American South. Incremental improvement
over a long period of time will be necessary. A centralized Marxist economy
is likely to lower the rate of economic gain. South Africa under CPSA is more
likely to resemble Zimbabwe over time than a western state. In a democratic
state the black voting advantage, when fully brought to bear, can produce
real results. If the state becomes a dictatorship of the proletariat, I dont
think the poor blacks will be well served. The general difference between
Soviet style marxism and western economies is an order of magnitude at least,
I think they are better off under elected non marxist government.

As for living standards not so true. I have relatives who as physicicians 
have visited a number of
these areas. Though south Africa has some pretty bleak conditions, the general
report was that conditions in most of the nations to the north were far worse.
(the physicians group was an AIDS treatment group) 

>  fact also remains that black residents of socialist countries to the
>  north stream into South Africa at a problematic rate. They do this because

>1) there is no current "stream" of immigrants from Zimbabwae, a socialist
>nation, with a terrible government and a long-term drought.

Immigration from all these countries is occurring according to the doctors.
I have also heard this from South Africans. It seems to me that virtually 
all marxist governments are decried as 
"terrible". Since there are no examples of good governments under ther
existing marxist incarnations, I think systemic problems should be considered. 
In virtually every case of communist revolution, there are reports that the
human rights record of this particular movement are different. The best off hand
example I can give is Edgar Snow's "Red Star Over China" about Mao's movement.
It was written in 1938, later events were to find his conclusions quite flawed.
Similar things were written about the Viet Minh, The Khmer Rouge, the Sandin-
istas, ad infinitum. If the ANC and CPSA are different, great, but Leninsim 
hasnt done many people much good to date. 

>3) South Africa sits on the worlds largest gold mines. These are a magnet
>for labor, and this has nothing to do with the economic system of South
>Africa or its neighbors.
>4) South Africa and US right wing extremists helped organize and arm
>a terrorist movement in Mozambique which has completely dismantled the
>Mozambique economy.

Super power games have played an important role in some of the politics of this 
region. The spook games surrounding Mobutus rise are an example. The primary
drivers for these games have tended to be militarily useful natural resources.
In the case of zaire, Lumumba was providing enormous amounts of high grade
Uranium ore to the Soviets, this was what got him caught in a whirlpool. 
(despite its tremendous resources USSR has virtually no bomb grade uranium ore)
By the same token this game has a major impact on south Africa. South Africa
is loaded with militarily sensitive minerals such as Cobalt, Magnesium, 
Platinum etc. It is practically the only source for western miliary use of
several of these. For these reasons Soviet KGB activity is the highest there
of anywhere except the middle east. Exactly how the game has changed in the 
last 3 years is hard for us to know, but its a safe bet that their (i.e. USSR)
vision was
a leninist government. Its also a pretty safe bet that the CPSA is shot through
with Soviet intelligence and I dont think they have the black south african's
interest at heart. The CPSA and the ANC share a fair bit of leadership, Joe
Slovo, to give your example, is chairman of the CPSA and leader the military
wing of the ANC. 

The CPSA is the most moscow party line oriented communist party on the African 
continent. Even more party line oriented than Mengistu. With all the military
stakes in the outcome here one should wonder what true agendas really are. 
It should bother you (IF you support CPSA or ANC or care about south africas
black population)) that they are so moscow party line oriented on a continent
where very few of the communist parties are.

Let the people of South Africa chose, I dont care to look after them, but
if the ANC and CPSA are the answer there is a good chance of a repeat of a
downhill spiral similar to zimbabwe. Go back and reread the Hype surrounding
Mugabe and his now deposed Tribal rival, the human rights and economic record 
has not lived up to expectations. 
 
I have a friend from Graduate school who is Iranian. He explains the Iranian
revolution thusly "you see at the time we could not believe that any government
could be worse than the Shah ... what can I say we F__ked up!" The mind set 
on South Africa reminds me of this. 

>Appaer to whom? Slovo made a simple, but important point. I can agree with
>this point without accepting Leninism, whether or not Slovo is still a
>Leninist.

 But why quote an obviously biased source to make such a point. I mean I dont
 quote Bush to criticize Russia. Unless you support SLovo or admire him 
 quoting such a partisan source seriously undermines your credibility as an
 open minded debater. Lots of people have made this point (or tried) no
 need quote anybody. It simply leads us to suspect your sympathies. 
 SLovo and Mandela were Leninists, I dont know if either still is, but CPSAs
 line has long been party line. 
 >  is pretty well accepted by american and european communists who appear
>  to me to be pretty much Leninist in orientation. Leninists will certainly
>  remove a market economy in South Africa, the consequences of this are pretty
>  predictable based upon Russian, East european experiences. If you are

The SACP is now calling for a mixed economy. I saw Chris Hani, the current
SACP chirman speak here, and he was booed by our local communists when 
he said that people can't eat slogans.

>  endorsing Slovo and the ANC vision then you are by and large endorsing
>  the Russian model. The results may be good for black south africans in the

>The ANC is not the same as the SACP, and since neither organization is
>calling for following the Russian model, your entire shaky chain of
>reasoning is invalid.

 I think you are naive. I once would have bought this too, in fact I bought 
 into alot of Mugabe and Nkomo's crap and similar stuff from Ortega and co.
 What they try to sell before reaching power always changes from what I've 
 observed, and without elections there isnt much motivation for them not to 
 do what they want. 

 The SACP has historically been the most moscow party line communist 
 party in africa. The ANC "is almost openly dominated by CPSA members" is
 a quote from "SOviet foreign Policy After Detente" by Stanfords Starr. 
 
>  short term, but in the long term almost certainly will result in fewer
>  human rights and less wealth even by the poor standards of South Africa. 

>That's absurd. Read the South Afican Institute of Race Relations yearbook
>for a couple of years to find out what black "human rights" under the
>Apartheid regime consisted of.

  It can always get worse. Have you read Lenin's theory of Justice? Do you
  know about his views on terror as policy? Have you ever known people who
  lived through a revolution? Ever known a person who lived through a "terror
  famine"? My technician did. There are people here at work who lived though
  several different revolutions such as cultural, khmer rouge, vietnamese,
  and Iranian. South Africa is a picnic compared to any of those. There is
  a sizable colony of Cambodians in San Jose, you should listen to their 
  stories. My Iranian friends all supported the revolution against the Shah
  and to a man would take him back immediately. 

  I've spent a summer in Russia, an old hiking buddy of mine is Jack Matlock's
  nephew, it gave me a new perspective on human rights, I seriously doubt that
  conditions in south africa are much worse than what can be found on a rural
  collective farm, its well beyond anything that can be found in america. 
  (and I've done extensive hiking in appalachia -tennessee, georgia and NC) You
  should see the 60 year old ladies carrying cobblestones for road repair.
  These people are barely alive, take a look at a typical state food store,
  4 hours a day in line for goddamn crappy bread. they didnt have anything and
  I was there in good times (1978). 
  
  and we have several russian jewish emigre's
  here at work>  The pattern of reduction in human rights and wealth may well follow the
>  type of evolution that occured in Rhodesia, I doubt many people in that

Standards of living for most of the population showed a dramatic increase
in Zimbabwae after the fall of Smith, despite the stupidity and
corruption of the current government.

>And many believe that Martin Luther King was a Soviet Agent who stirred up
>trouble in a happy-go-lucky community of negroes who knew their place and
>liked it. Many people believe all kinds of nonsense.

 Testimony on this subject was held in the senate intelligence committee? Did
 anybody accuse martin Luther King of being a Soviet Agent in formal testimony
 before the US congress? 

>  Since you advocate elimination of private property this is consistent, and 
>  such an elimination also implies the elimination of a market economy. 

>Your extrapolations are brave, but wrong.

 Well Victor let us in on your secret plan for ending the worlds woe's.
 You keep telling us in veiled terms that you have answers and we are wrong
 but all you really reveal is that you're hung up on south africa and a bit
 naive. Are you afraid to tell us, hard to believe for such an arrogant guy,
 Ive ventured my opinions lets hear your program.

 G. flower
 Hewlett-Packard
 san jose Ca

 


Newsgroups: sci.econ