HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: howard@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: I am a phoenician! (was:Re: Arab identity)
Date: 14 Apr 92 12:58:59 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1992Apr13.165921.366@ulrik.uio.no>, eliedw@hedda.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini) writes:
> The issue of Arab identity becomes much more difficult because it can mean so
> much and it implies so much.
> 
> THe key to resolving this problem is: Pluralism and tolerance
> 
> 
> Today the term Arab has changed. It has kept its ancient meaning besides its
> newly acquired ones.
> 
> 
> 
> elie dib wardini
> 

Elie W.,

Your post was very informative. (I read a similar argument in the
newspaper this week about the word "African-American". If a white South
African immigrates to the U.S. and becomes a citizen, can he or she
mark the box for "African-American" on a job application? Answer: NO!). 

My question is about what a Phoenician is. Every time I hear it mentioned
it seems like there is a strong sentiment against it. Did the Phoenicians
oppress the Arabs, or what is the reason for the distinction? How does
that affect racial/cultural differences in Lebanon today?  

-Mary Howard

Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: eliedw@hedda.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: The racist Mr. Mourad (was Re: Bottom Line: Arabs Are Incompetent (was Re: Are Arabs incompetent))
Date: 14 Apr 92 11:09:47 GMT
Organization: UiO

In article <1992Apr13.131428.14349@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>|> Arabs then don't speak Arabic. Speak French!!!
>>|> 
>>|> Nabil Idriss
>>|> 
>>I don't speak arabic. 
>>
>>I speak Arabic, French, English, and Lebanese.
>>is there something bad with that?
>>
>>If I am lebanese , yet I seem to fit more among European cultures, is that
bad?
>>Can I at least be allowed to chose who to identify with? I don't understand
why I
>>wouldn't be allowed, and yet, you want to take this right away from me.
>>
>>
>>WHY?
>>
>>
>>-philo.
>>-- 
>Yes, you are right. Be what you want to be. But remember and I am honestly
speaking, that
>this may create problem in rebuilding and unifying Lebanon. Feel free to
correct me if I am 
>wrong.
>
>Nabil
>

Why ya Nabil? Why should lebanese have one idendity unified identity? If so who
is going to choose this identity?

Nabil, unless we start thinking seriously about pluralism I see no future for
Lebanon.

It is interesting how those who refuse the be handed the label Arab are always
refered to as isolationists, people with identity crisis etc. I do not want to
talk about this also being a form of racism!

I refuse to call myself an arab, not because I want to distance myself from the
Arabs, but because this is my identity.

I once wrote an article where I spoke of Lebanese who identify themselves with
Arabs, and someone (I don't remember whom it was) eloquently answered: "we
don't identify with Arabs, we ARE Arabs!"

True. My statement implied (unintetionally) that they were not Arabs and
identified themselves with them. I was wrong and duely corrected.

THerefore, every one even Al-Ghani and Hani, have to realise that they are not
alone in Lebanon nad that if they want to live with the rest of us in peace,
they have to accept others as they are. (despite what Salibi says! :)  )


So let us start understanding eachother. The fact that Lebanon is multy
cultural should be looked upon as a richness rather than a problem. We will be
able to be open to the whole world.

I do not think that a renewal of the debate on identity is our way to go. WE
should find out how best we can learn pluralism intead!


elie wardini

(The Phoenician!)
From: angel@herald.usask.ca (Joseph F. Angel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Arab Identity
Date: 14 Apr 92 04:06:21 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan

In article <Ngl+ws@engin.umich.edu>, hani@gilaman.engin.umich.edu (Hani Abinassif) writes:
> 
[...]
> 
> suggested readings:
> 
> 1. "History of the Arabs"  by Albert Hourani.


Just a small correction: History of the Arabs is by Ph. Hitti; you probably 
mean A History of the Arab Peoples, by A. Hourani.

Joe
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: madelein@scrap.sybase.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: IMPORTANT - BUC teaching positions
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:38:52 GMT
Reply-To: madelein@scrap.sybase.com ()
Organization: Sybase, Inc.


>From    : Madeleine Biskintaoui
Date    : Wednesday april 15/92
Subject : IMPORTANT- Teaching Positions at BUC 



BUC is planning to start an MS Degree in Computer Science 
at BUC-Beirut next year. Many teaching positions for 
Computer Science PHD graduates are available. Also, 
there are teaching positions in the Business field.
Dr. Raja Hajjar (Dean of BUC) is in Washington DC for 
couple of weeks.  If anyone is interested in talking to him 
personally about teaching opportunities in BUC Beirut, 
please call BUC at the number stated in the announce. 

Thank you,
madeleine.


                 =================


            BEIRUT UNIVERSITY COLLEGE 




     Beirut University College, located in Lebanon with campuses
in Beirut, Byblos and Sidon is interested in receiving vitae of 
persons who will have completed the terminal degree in their 
specialization (in most areas, the doctorate).

     The Beirut University College is a mainly undergraduate 
college with graduate programs in business studies and computer
science.  It is chartered by the Board of Regents of the 
University of the State of New York and has a total enrollment of
about 3500 on all three campuses.  It is an equal opportunity
employer.  However, since US citizens are, at present, not 
allowed to travel to or reside in in Lebanon, applications from 
them cannot be considered until this restriction is lifted.

Current openings are available in fields of:

a.        Computer Science
b.        Business Studies (accounting, management, marketing)


                  Dr. Raja F. Hajjar, Dean
                  Beirut University College
                  475 Riverside Drive, Suite 1846
                  New York, NY 10115-0065

                  Tel (212) 870-2592
                  Fax (212) 870-2762
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: at392@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michel M. Karam)
Subject: Re: Pleasure Marriages
Reply-To: at392@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michel M. Karam)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 14:09:02 GMT


In a previous article, jrad@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (ahmad.m.jrad) says:


>This article which is given without any supporting material should be taken
>with a grain of salt. (or a handful if you prefer :-)
>

I agree.

>Much trash is reported nowadays in newspaper articles. And while I am not
>saying that this article is trash, or accusing you of authoring the article,
>I was just curious to see if you knew of any references that support
>the claims that the article makes.
>

The reason why I posted the article was to have some of the knowledgeable 
people on this net give us their opinion on why the pleasure marriages
are allowed in Shia Islam and give us hopefully the necessary references 
taken from the Koran or the Hadith or what have you.

However, some people seem to be unable to have civilized discussions in here
and automagically start the flaming and insulting process.

No wonder Lebanon is in such a mess!


>I had not noticed that it was a newspaper article. Thank you for pointing
>that out.
>

My pleasure.

>Ahmad
>


Michel
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: ghassoun@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (George Hassoun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: U.S. Aid to Israel????
Date: 8 Apr 92 06:05:38 GMT
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide

(This is a follow up to the article above in which the author
refers to the account of an American Journalist about her visit
to Palestine as...trash)


The attitude you are showing is not a responsible one to
say the least. Human right abuses by the Israeli regime
against Palestinian people were and still are a living fact.

It is my belief that instead of recurring to individual
histeric reactions (dubbed ``terrorism'' by the way), the
palestinian struggle should focus on awareness campaigns
like the one manifested in the journalist acccount mentioned above.

Special thanks to Dr. Jasem and to the journalist who
witnessed ugly crimes against civilian palestinians, in
the Holly Land and was willing to talk about them in public.

One good reason why many western countries do not seem to be able
to sympathise with the Palestinian plight while they sympathised,
supported (and still support) the Jewish plight, seems to be the
AWARENESS ISSUE. The Jewish people knew how to let their words
be heard, while the current palestinian tactics in expressing
their anger, justifiably work against them.

Let us switch the strategies..instead of letting our reputation
be destroyed by a minority of people who, out of desperation,
act blindly and in a suicidal manner, let the decently educated
of us speak up. Let us talk about the immoral and scandaleous
practices which take place in our region, regardless of the side
they come from.

Articles like Dr. Jasem's are well appreciated. I am sure that
once enough people, here in the west, know about human right
abuses in the Middle East, their frequency and their degree of
atrocity, the goodness in their hearts won't
let them remain silent. Everyone is encouraged, especially those
who major in history, social science, etc..(just because they may
be able to do that as part of their dayly activities), everyone
is encouraged to post credible articles about the suffering, the
atrocities, the human right abuses, as well as the achievements and
success of fellow arabs.

There is no need to ``weep'' (which is a sarcastic accusation often
trown at those who complain about the hardship). But please let the
voice of the suffering be heard.

Let us show the world the truth. And let its inhabitants make
a decision based on the truth.

As for you, Mr. ``dead heart'', please shut up. There are out there
many ears willing to listen, and many hearts willing to throb.
-- 
George Hassoun
University of Adelaide, EEE Dpt.
Adelaide, South Australia
email: ghassoun@augean.adelaide.au.edu      Phone:(08) 228 5468
From: spinoza@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Prince Lev of the Domovoi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: I NEED HELP ON LEBANON RECENT HISTORY
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:25:45 GMT

> >Of course Pierre vowed vengeance against those responsible for the  
murder  
> >of Bashir. And the Phalange carried it out, too.
> >Or are we supposed to believe you've forgotten Sabra and Shatila?
> 
> I guess whoever taught you how to argue the Israeli case in public
> forgot to mention that there are different kind of audiences out
> there.  It is very likely that your lies above might work on an
> ill-informed audience about the ME affairs, say, the American audience
> for example!  But to convince a bunch of Lebanese (or well-informed
> Americans who frequently post to this group) that people in Sabra and
> Shatila were responsible for the assassination of Bashir Gemayel in
> the Lebanese Forces' headquarters in the heart of East-Beirut is a big
> mistake.
> 
It was never my intention to mislead anyone, Khaled. The Phalangists vowed  
vengeance against those they believed resposible for the bombing, and they  
carried out that vengeance against those who they believed were  
resposible, namely, members of various Palestinian groups in the Sabra and  
Shatila camps. Whether or not this was a correct assessment, or whether  
the perpetrators were members of the Syrian secret services, or others  
hired by the Syrians, has been the topic of conjecture for quite a while,  
though Syrian, rather than Palestinian invovlement seems more likely./
Clearly, however, the Phalange viewed the situation differently.
On the other hand, the Phalange did NOT accuse the Israelis of plotting  
and carrying out the bombing of Gemayel's headquarters.






shalom,

lev



"Lo yisa goy el goy cherev, lo yilmedu od milchama..........until then,  
keep the Galil oiled and loaded........................................>"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: jkrm_ss@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Joe Karam)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: ATTENTION KARAM'S
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:08:24 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

Hi all, 
	I posted this article over the summer,but got no replies so I'm going
to try again.
	My father, Maron Karam, doesn't know of any relatives he has in the
states.  I'd like to see if there are any.  His parents, Joseph and Mary 
Karam, are from the town of Qartaba (sp??) in central lebanon.  they came to
Mexico around 1910 and then settled in Utica, New York in about 1919.  My dad
was born in 1920.  He keeps in touch with one cousin in lebanon, but knows
of no relatives elsewhere.
	Please if you think there is any connection between the two of us,
reply to me via email.  thanks.

			Joseph Karam

jkrm_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu  
--
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((IN STEREO))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
SNAIL MAIL:  Joseph Karam	EMAIL:  jkrm_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
	     CPU 274957                  
             University of Rochester     Take off, Aye!!
From: wam2221@rigel.tamu.edu (WA'EL A. MASSARWEH)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Bottom Line: Arabs Are Incompetent (was Re: Are Arabs incompetent)
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:58:00 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.lebanon
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <33044@imag.imag.fr>, oueichek@imag.fr writes...
>(Note, i've crossposted this article to s.c.a, ALL Arabs have to read the gems
>written by Mr Mourad).
>elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad) writes:
>: In article <1992Apr01.224414.48291@yuma.acns.colostate.edu> bh437292@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
>: >In article <1992Apr1.162410.21644@njitgw.njit.edu> elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad) writes:
> 
>   
>    Oh yeah, because hadratukum are not Arab, you are Lebanese, but not Arab.
>You speak "Lebanese" not Arabic, what a shame to hear someone who claims
>publically that he wants to "distance himself" from his own people. 
>    
>-- 

	Ya Ibba, Allah Yekhaleek... One of our mistake is trying to force
our thought down other's throats.. The guy doesn't want to be an Arab, that
is his business. We are not going to change his mind... (and actually I don't
care to either) ... Time is better spent on bettering ourselves ( those who
still consider themselves as Arabs). Once we get above the level of 
incompitance ( as described by Elie), then I am sure he will be knocking on
the door again.. I like to think of Arabs at this point as a nation which
is trying to rediscover itself after years of hybrination... It takes a while
before steady state is reached... So Elie is not totaly wrong. It takes
more courage to fix a wrong thing than it takes to "distance" oneself from
it.... Again, if some Lebanese don't consider themselves as Arab, it doesn't
bother me at all .. That is there owm choice after all....

Salaam....

Wa'el
From: at392@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michel M. Karam)
Subject: Re: On Pleasure Marriages...
Reply-To: at392@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michel M. Karam)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 03:02:47 GMT


In a previous article, saghir@eecg.toronto.edu (Mazen Saghir) says:


>

>My reply was an expression of my outrage as a Lebanese Moslem at an article
>that:
>
>1. falsely portrays Moslems as people who use their religion as a cover for
>   prostitution, and implicitly suggests that Islam is a "barbaric" or
>   "animalistic" religion.

The article talks specifically about the Shiites and not the Moslems in 
general so it can hardly be viewed as an attack on the whole population of 
Moslems since the Shia represent a minority among the Moslems.
But the most important point is that the article does not say any of the 
above. If you chose to interpret it this way, it's your problem.

>
>2. falsely portrays Moslem women as "sex objects" whose sole role is to
>   "please" men, a misconception widely held in the West.
>

The article presented the Shiite women's point of view rather nicely. Not 
only don't they mind the pleasure marriages, but they lobbied for them in 
Iran, defended them in Lebanon (cf the last sentence of the article).



>3. tries very hard to emphasize the major split in Islam between its Shi'ite
>   and Sunni sects which, to the uninnitiated Western reader, might even 
>   appear to be directly related to the issue of pleasure marriages!! :)

The article only discusses briefly the disagreement between the Sunnis and
the Shiites regarding the pleasure marriages. And you really gotta give
the Western audience some credit. Those who take the trouble of reading this 
newsgroup surely know more about the Middle East than you think.


>
>4. had no significance whatsoever to any ongoing discussion on LebNet, and
>   served no purpose other than to insult. 
>

So you are saying that it is improper to start a new topic on LebNet?
Again the insults in the article are your own interpretations of it.


>   Had the article been posted as part of an ongoing discussion about religious
>   practicies in Lebanon or any other discussion, replying to the article would
>   have taken a different form that would have been aimed at clarifying the 
>   misconceptions raised by the article.


Again someone has to start the discussion somewhere. I chose to do it here
but unfortunately it turned into a flame war..
I would urge those who know more about the issue to give us their views
and to clear any misconceptions that may have appeared in the article.


If you have any knowledge of the issue Mr. Saghir, please do share it with
us poor ignorant souls.


Michel Karam.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Missing Paragraph
Originator: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 21:36:56 GMT

I apologize for an incomplete paragraph on my latest article.

Nabil
From: arnaud@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (alain.arnaud)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: U.S. Aid to Israel????
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:35:25 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <204359@unix.cis.pitt.edu> abas@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Jasem Alhumoud) writes:
>
>                
>
>           Discovering the Victims of the U.S. Aid to Israel
>
>                  " By Eleni Katsoulakis"
>
>

	{Trash deleted...}

>
>  "Eleni Katsoulakis, a journalist in her native Greece, is a free-lance
>   writer presently living in New Jersey."
>
>
>    Jasem (Dr. J.)


	What's this garbage? She deserved what she got and probably not
enough of it.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: saouma@bechtel (SAOUMA VICTOR E)
Subject: Re: Pleasure Marriages
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 06:19:14 GMT

At the risk of antagonizing many readers, and possible one whom I
respect dearly (from the great state of Colorado), i do'nt understand
why is everyone so excited about this story.

1. Few have unequivocally said that this practice does not occur, yet most
seem to agree that it is very rare and nothing to be proud of.

2. Most look at it as a "cheap shot" at one of the three great religions, and
as a mean to antagonize our muslim brothers. Yet many (but not all) of these
very same brother either do not fail to accuse us the Christians in Lebanon
of all the possible evils, and secondly tend to justify their return to
fundamentalism by the decadence of the so called western civilization
to which they associate the Christians. Since our is a two way street,
let us have a two way discussion, free of taboos.

3. Some went as far as publically posting information about a certain
Karam at AUB in 83. By doing so we are reopening certain wonds, and am sure
that many of us have refrained to post private information we know about
certain leb-netters.                    

4. If the Karam of AUB hated the Chi'ites, one question which comes to
mind is why? Again many muslims have not hesitated to post articles
in which they justified some of their attitudes on specific incidents,
massacres allegedly perpetrated by Christians. As a Christian, I would
be the first one to acknowledge that in many instances they were
right. But how about those other incidents in Lebanon which have
resulted in pathological cases such as the Karam of AUB?  

5. Finally, whether we like it or not, indeed this article relate to
the so called "culture" of our country. We all know that the
sanctity (oups) of the marriage in many CHristian quarters has
been challenged by numerous extramarital affairs during the war.
Again, just as it should be ok to talk about "pleasure marriage",
I have no problem in talking about the collapse of "moeurs" in
Achrafieh.

6. .....

7. .....

Sorry, but it is getting too late, and am going to bed, after
all of this, I surely deserve some sweet dreams :-)

Victor  


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: eliedw@hedda.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: A question (was:Re: Pleasure Marriages)
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:04:30 GMT
Organization: UiO

About pleasure marriages, a subject I heard of during my studies, and not in
Lebanon I have nothing to say!

I do have many questions though!

But Victor Sauma brought up an issue that I suppose is important.

i.e. The possibility to discuss religion and religious practices without
getting at each others necks.

The reason why I ask the question, is that, again in the course of my studies,
I am working on an article that will discuss the Statement made in the Qoran
that Jesus prophesied about the comming of Muhammad. Al-Saff verse 6 (61:6).

I am nearly finished with my article and argue that on this point Muhammad was
mistaken, and that he must have been misinformed by some source that knew Greek
(and Hebrew/Aramaic), be it Christians or Jews.

I was not intending to post on scl, and it seems to me that it will be unwise
to do so. But the question still remains?

I am not sure of the answers, I am really wondering if at times it is best to
keep quiet, sorry Michel.

But I also feel that I should be able to speak up, and not be charged with all
kinds of accusations! A la Salman Rushdie (his book maybe be a bunch of rubish,
but he should have the right to publish it).


For those of you who suppose that the only religion that I write articles about
and disagree with is Islam, please give me the benifit of the doubt! You do not
know me, nor do you know what I have read, said, or written on other religions
or sets of belief.

I ask the question sicerely

Can I criticize Islam or disagree with Muslims without being accused of
blasphemi?

THe same is true of other religions including my Greek Catholics!


elie dib wardini

************************************************************
u-ba-maqom she-'en anashim, hishtadel liheyoth 'ish
   and in a place where there are no men, strive to be a man
                               (Mishna, Pirqe Avoth)
************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon