HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about...
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:08:04 GMT


Nathan A. Horstman writes:
#Does anyone know anything about the Tokarev semi-auto pistols in 9mm?

I bought a Tok in 7.62mm. It was reliable and moderately accurate.
To Tokagypt-style grips from the Navy Arms "TU-90" make it much
more comfortable to shoot. I later bought a 9mm barrel, which is
supposed to be a drop-in conversion. It is, but the magazines are
a problem, in that the 9mm cartridge has more body taper than the 
7.62mm, so the 9mm rounds at the top of the mag are a bit nose-
down. My gun regularly jams on Round #2 from each magazine when
firing 9mm.




John Cronin writes:
#My biggest hangup is that they are single action pistols WITH NO SAFETY.

Current import Tokarevs have a safety fitted, no doubt to get enough
GCA68 import points. It's inconvenient and hard to use. The gun still
has its overlength floating firing pin, so it's not drop-safe even 
with the safety on.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: unr!tamela@uunet.UU.NET (Tamela Germano)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS vs .30 Carbine
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:20:55 GMT
Organization: University of Nevada Reno


I have found that the SKS is as reliable as a brick, but the trigger
pull is almost always long, creepy, and heavy. In fact almost as bad as 
a Ruger .45 auto. (:> ... Once you get used to the trigger the SKS is the best
$140 rifle on the market. The .30 carbine is easy to tote, has a much
better trigger pull, spare parts are easier to find, and in the pre 1946 
models is OK in California. The down side is the lack of power compared
to the 7.62X39. As to the alleged lack of intrinsic accuracy in the M1 carbine
I have found them able to shoot from 2" to 5" groups at 100 yards. In fact I
have both first in open class and high over-all placards from an I.P.S.C.
"Practical Rifle Craft" meet. Three B zone hits (including two called 
head shots) all others A zone hits. Critical factors in my score were 
the speed in handling, light recoil, and quick sight picture that the carbine
has. Either rifle is fun so why not get one of each? Good shooting and have fun.

Dino Germano
From: smittie@csulb.edu (Smittie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:13:03 GMT
Organization: Cal State Long Beach

#I'm not an officer yet (looks like next year that will change) but I can tell
#you want I have observed and have learned.  If the suspect isn't following your
#verbal commands, you just wait him out until you can get some help.  Think
#about it...what are your other options? Shoot him? He's not a immediate threat.
#Are you going to try and wrestle him to the ground?  Of course not.  You've got
#the gun, you are calling the shots and, generally, time will be on your side.

#If help isn't on the way and you have no way of contacting help.  Then you
#should still wait him out. Essentially, "the ball is in his court".  Keeping
#trying the verbal commands.

Four years of watching San Diego and Hawaii PD says the samething. In the
hypothetical the perp, while not cooperative, is also not a threat. Several
cops I've been assigned with had a two line philosophy that tended to dicate
their decisions:

	Always go off shift, alive and well.
	Take 'em alive if at all possible.

Listed here in order of importance.

smittie
--
                             Tada mono de ha nai
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GEnie, MCI, AOL:Smittie   All of these accounts except MCI will die on or
smittie@beach.csulb.edu   about Dec 31. UNIX will be forwarded for 2 weeks.
From: smpod@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Dillon Electronic Scale
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:43 GMT
Organization: who knows

Dillon now has an electronic scale for $200 but it's 0.1 gr. resolution
seems to be a bit low.  Is 0.1 gr typical for electronic scales?
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Weapon for defense from cows
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:20:22 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1emipbINNim4@agate.berkeley.edu> rmihara%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Randall A. Mihara) writes:
#Another thing you might do is use a shotgun loaded with salt (that is
#if you have an old shotgun that is essentially valueless).  You can give
#the bull a painful, but non-lethal wound.

This needs to be rock salt, right? I'd think ordinary table salt wouldn't
penetrate the hide, but I'm not sure rock salt would survive firing 
and might just hit as table salt-sized grains...

                                                   Frank Crary
                                                   CU Boulder
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing rounds
Date: 24 Nov 92 00:03:25 GMT


Stephen D. Grant writes:
#A good way to tell if your round is SS109 is to use a magnet.
#See if the magnet will stick to the bullet. You can also pull the
#bullet and weigh/cut it. That little carbide "cone" is HARD!

Of course this neglects the fact that carbide is nonmagnetic :)

The penetrator in SS109/M855 bullets is hardened steel, of the sort used
in AP bullets.

Additionally, as some manufacturers of 5.56mm FMJ cartridges use
plated mild steel jackets (a batch of Portuguese I had was so), the
magnet is not a reliable test.

It seems the only sure way to tell (assuming non-reloads) is the cross-
within-circle NATO marking on the headstamp.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: HODGSONT@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jake Hodgson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Mauser Info Request
Date: 22 Nov 92 03:17:53 GMT
Organization: Queens University at Kingston


   Hello,
 
    A friend of mine and I are looking into picking put a surplus
rifle or two while prices and availability are still reasonable.
I was wondering if the net.gurus could offer me an opinion of a couple
of rifles I know very little about?
 
    One is a Syrian mauser in 7.92mm. Available in 'Very Good'
condition and built on the 98K action.  111cm overal, 73.8cm bbl
6.8lbs.
 
    The other is an oddball. It's the Mauser Model FR8 'Special
purpose rifle'.  The FR8 is a Spanish conversion to 7.62x51 (.308Win)
based on a K96 Large Ring receiver.  It's fitted with a very short
bbl for a Mauser (44.7cm... 18.5in)  and I wonder if it was intended
to be a paratroop/tanker's rifle.
 
  We'd be happy to hear anything about these rifles, especial with
respect to quality of work, durability, accuracy, compatability with
available mauser parts and history.
Email me directly at the address below, or post to the net if you
think there is sufficient interest.
 
                                       Thanks in Advance,
                                               Warm Hearth!
                                                     Jake
 
Jake Hodgson____________________________________________________________
HODGSONT@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA               |  All skill is in vain when
Disclaimer: It must be my doing because |  an angel pisses in the
            THIS bunch won't take       |  touchhole of your musket.
            responsibility for ANYTHING |  -old German proverb
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: j&g sales
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:06:37 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

In article <1992Nov18.224212.15779@gibdo.engr.washington.edu> slh@gibdo.engr.washington.edu writes:
#
#	I went ahead and order:
#		a ``Bausch and Lomb family'' (sp?) spotting scope and
#		a case (1440) of 7.62x39.
#	I mailed my order (using a money order for payment)
#	on a Tuesday afternoon, UPS delivered on the next Friday;
#	fairly fast, though slower than the sales person indicated.
#	I haven't had a chance to try either item out yet.
#	The ammo looks fine (old Chinese surplus).
#	The scope looks fine, but is a Jason, not a B&L;
#	maybe somehow their phrasing justifies this
#	(is Jason somehow related to B&L?),
#	but I thought it was misleading in any event.

Well, it said "Bausch and Lomb family", not "Bausch and Lomb".  Like
buying a "Canon mount lens" instead of "Canon lens".  It sometime pays
to watch for things like that.


On the other hand, B&L don't manufacture all of their own optics anymore,
and Jason is basically an optical marketing firm.  Both very likely have
either contracted to some Japanese (or Korean) optical firm to produce
things to their spec, or in this case, had an existing model relabeled
with their logo.

If the quality of the 'scope is satisfactory, then you haven't been hurt.

If you don't feel that the quality is up to snuff, talk to J&G and see
about a refund.

The wording of the ad is a bit deceptive, but I don't believe that it,
or J&G could be found guilty of outright fraud.  (I've bought from them,
and I'd do it again...but I was educated a *long* time ago by some major
sleazemeisters like Cambridge Camera in NYC.  Makes one a bit more
cautious.)

--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
-------------------------------------------------------
From: peterson@ucunix.san.uc.EDU (John M. Peterson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Replicas
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:29 GMT
Organization: University of Cincinnati


A while back,there was a discussion on the network about famous
actors and their weapons.Also some mention of Hollywood guns.
well, I got the delux tour of a company called IRAC Inc.
whose owner makes replica firearms,both static (which maens
they just look good)and simulaters (which is what we see on T.V.)
I have several questions for the network.Aside from the obvious
(no bullets come ouy the barrel!)has anyone played with anything
like this? Do they last a long time? Or do parts need to be 
replaced alot? Compared to a real .50 Browning,they almost have to 
be cheaper and easier to use? Not that I have a use for a .50  :^)
(besides,how long could I hide *THAT* from the little woman?)
thanks

marty  using jmp's acc

standard disclaimers apply


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  peterson@headcheese.daa.uc.edu      	 In real life: John M. Peterson  |
|                                                                        |
|  College of Design Architecture Art & Planning                         |
|  University of Cincinnati           45221-0016           513-556-1207  |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov (Minh Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 62g .223 bullet in T/C 14"??
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:08:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: elroy.9211161848.AA04925
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory

Is there anyone who is using any .223 bullet heavier
than 55g in a T/C 14" barrel? I'm wondering if I
can use those 62 (or 64g) JSP bullets in my T/C?
Is the T/C twist be able to stabilize it? 
Thanks for any info/comments.

  == Minh ==
From: biocca@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Alan K Biocca)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A "must" for the reloading bench
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:14:11 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

#In article <1992Nov2.170659.3067@phx.mcd.mot.com> mcdphx!systemname!gcall@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Glen Call) writes:
##I agree with emphasis on safety.  I do question the safety of the kinetic
##pullers.  Anyone out there have any experiences with accidental detonation of
##primers while using kinetic pullers?

I've read that very occasionally someone has a problem with one.  Always
wear safety glasses and about the only risk is to the puller itself.

Light bullets or slightly corroded ones don't pull very well.  Old rounds
are often difficult.  I always strike the puller on a piece of wood, not
concrete.  In some cases this makes it difficult or impossible to pull the
bullet.

One question to ask is what is the purpose of pulling?  If the bullet is
worth saving it is probably not an old corroded one.  If it is not worth
saving then you can pull it by removing a die from your press, putting the
shell in the shellholder, and grabbing the bullet over the die hold while
withdrawing the case.  Not great for the bullet, but very controlled.

Powder should be spread on the lawn - it is good fertilizer.

And of course WD-40 reportedly will deactivate primers.  I tried this one
day and found that it is not immediate - a primer sprayed with WD-40 still
fired a few minutes later.  Probably takes time to soak through the coating
on the primer wafer.

Alan K Biocca
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .45 caliber handguns
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:19:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <199211201932.AA24033@elf.wang.com> chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet) writes:
#I tend to agree.  However...Colt has improved the design of the standard
#1911 for '92.  They are still relatively rare, but the new "Enhanced" models
#as they are called would be worth a serious look.  I've have yet to see
#one, but the improvements [beveled magazine well, bigger beaver-
#tail, high visibility sights, etc] seem substantial.  I would sell my
#Gold Cup to get one.  I always thought it was kind of stupid that the
#1911 didn't come with a beveled magazine well and good sights - things
#the Sig 220 has already of course.

Yes, Colt has finally gotten around to adding things like a beveled magazine
well, decent sights, etc.  Curiously enough, Springfield has had these things
for quite some time, and at a much better price.  I still can't understand
why anyone would actually buy something like a Gold Cup; the only two I've
handled were incredibly sloppy in both barrel and slide/frame fit.  The
Springfield I had, on the other hand, was very well put together in both
respects.  My uncle has just bought one, also, and his exhibits similar
quality of manufacture, as well as good accuracy and reliability.

-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:36 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin) writes:


#One thing I wonder about...

#What if the perp is armed with a knife and starts walking very deliberately
#towards you from 20 feet away.  I know many anti-gun types who have said about
#cops in similar situations "he had a gun, why couldn't he just shoot him in
#the leg or something?".  In fact, cops have had to undergo a lot of invest-
#igation on that point here in Atlanta, although as far as I know they have
#all been (eventually) exonerated.  Still, if you get a civil jury trial this
#point can be made to sound very convincing by the plaintiffs lawyers.  So, if
#you were in this situation, why not shoot for the legs (assuming you have a
#big enough gun and are a good enough shot)?
#John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419

If somebody is armed with an stabbing or impact weapon (knife, pipe, etc) and
they are within 7 meters they would have exactly ONE chance to drop the weapon
and start acting VERY harmless.  After ONE warning and without immediate
response, like within one second, I would execute my standard self defense
pattern.

The reason for this is that at that distance they are within 1.5 seconds of
me.  And 1.5 seconds is dangerously close to my reaction time.  And yes I
would expect this response to stand up in court.  Expert witness on this
subject are readily available, not to mention the possibility of an absolutely
chilling demonstration.

Regards,
  Barry.

-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527
From: unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (James Warren)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks and Lead Bullets?
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:10:55 GMT
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC

#From article <9211171648.AA02916@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>, by weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162):
# 
# --
# In the on-going debate between Glocks and the rest of the world, I've
# read a few posts indicating that one should NOT shoot LEAD bullets
# in their GLock.  What are the facts in this?  Does it apply to the .45 ACP
# also?  I am considering buying a .45 Glock, but I would be shooting
# re-loaded lead SWCs or RN most of the time.

I load for my sister and her husband (Glock 17 & 19).  They have no
problem with cast bullets.  You can't use too light a load, though, as
Glocks are the worst I've seen for stovepiping with light loads.  As long
as I use med to heavy loads with med to slow (for the 9mm) powders, they
shoot just fine.

# 
# I assume firing handloads voids the Glock warrenty, but I'm also sure
# that's true of any gun.  Any comments?

I think they say so in the Glock manual (Ruger does not, for the handguns I
have), but if you don't tell them, they will not know.  Unless you blow
it up they probably won't ask.  And if you do blow it up with a bad
reload, then they shouldn't have to fix it for free, IMHO.
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Defense/Combat Questions
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:15:15 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <199211160438.AA22652@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
#I noticed that I'd posted quite a few questions these days. Guess I'm
#still in a curious mood. So two more questions come:
#
#(1) I've read quite a few defense/combat articles wherein the good guys
#    mount flash lights on their weapons and go searching for the bad guys.
...
#   However, using a flash light just reveals your position, IMO.
...
#    So what am I missing here?

While I'm not a cop, I was a Law Enforcement Eagle Scout ;-)
(no, honest, we did a fair amount of the usual new recuit training
and marching drills and mace sniffing ;-)

What we were shown was rather simple.  Hold the flashlight at
arms length.  Most bad guys will shoot at the light, and be off
by one arms length from your vitals...  You shoot at their muzzle flash...

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 1911-A1 38 SUPER
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:19:40 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <92323.025459TXK107@psuvm.psu.edu>, TXK107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU writes:
# I own a pre-70 1911-A1 in 38 super, and I can't get the bugger to shoot with a
# y hand loads I have tried. The firearm is in excellent condition, so I don't w
# nt to radically modify it. I tried NM links on the barrel.. NM bushing.
# My next step is the net,to ask if a NM barrel that spaces on the mouth provide
# more consistant accuracy. Since I am very pleased with Springfields hardware,a
# d their 38 super spaces on the mouth a comment on this model would be apprecia
# ed.
# 


    Everything I've ever read seems to indicate that all the accuracy bad-
 raps the .38 Super ever got were due to the original barrels headspacing
 on the rim. I don't believe the stock Colts are built this way anymore. 
 A new NM barrel which headspaces on the mouth will definately improve
 your accuracy assuming nothing else is inherently wrong with the gun in
 the accuracy department. My Wilson .38 Super will shoot 1 1/2" groups
 at 50 yards all day long with 150gr CP Elite bullets. 



						John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Get Out vs. Freeze ( was: Re: Bad tactical position)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:07:14 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <199211170051.AA12286@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>, kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
# In article <1992Nov16.112309.1032@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
# #....
# #IMHO, the best course of action is to leave  a  suspect  a  clear
# #possibility  to  escape.  If I found somebody inside my flat, I'd
# #yell "GET OUT  HERE  OR  I  SHOOT  YOU!  OUT  NOW!",  instead  of
# #"FREEZE!" or something similar.
# 
# This looks like a very good idea to me. How come I'd never thought
# of that? ;) I've never seen/heard people using that either.
# Are there any drawbacks of using this method?

Yeah, actually there is (isn't there always a drawback?).  What if the suspect
doesn't leave?  Now what are you going to do? Shoot him? Not if he doesn't
present a threat of death or great bodily harm.  It's bad policy to make
threats that you can't/won't follow through with.
 
(This varies from state to state, of course, some state laws are pretty loose
when it comes to deadly force when you are in your home. (which isn't a bad
thing, don't get me wrong))

Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Adjusting sights
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:06 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Nov18.190355.5456@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> rps@hoqax.att.com (Robert P Schwendel) writes:
#
#I started shooting a 357, 6" barrel Ruger. I have not yet adjusted
#the sights (until I can get my groups smaller).
#
#My groups are low and to the right. I think trigger flinch still 
#accounts for some of it, but not sure how much is due to flinch and 
#how much is due to sights being off.

The sights may be off from the factory, but there may be another problem.
If your groups are fairly tight, you probably aren't "flinching" them
off. A "flinch" generally scatters shots all over the paper. What's more
likely is that you are cross eye dominant. That is, your master hand and
your master eye are on different sides. I'm left handed and right master
eyed. When I pick up a factory sighted gun, my groups are always high and
to the left. A sight adjustment cures the problem, or I can lay my left
cheek on my left shoulder and also shoot straight. This brings the master
eye over in alignment with the gun.

Eye dominance still matters in handguns since you should not shoot with
a cocked wrist to compensate for cross dominance. The other option is
to learn to shoot with the weak hand. I can do this, though not quite
so quickly, and I always shoot a rifle right handed. With a shotgun,
I shoot left handed with both eyes open. That's point shooting and eye
dominance isn't such a problem. I do have problems on certain crossing
shots though.

The main things are to understand your limitations and practice to
overcome them.

Gary