From: kgnome@cs.concordia.ca (MATIS stephane)
Subject: Re: MacII vs Daishi
Summary: response and MTS Warhammer 
Organization: Computer Science, Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 11:23:56 GMT

In article <1jpc05INNn8n@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Nobody of Importance) writes:
>In article <C18sE2.Lr9@newsflash.concordia.ca> kgnome@cs.concordia.ca (MATIS stephane) writes:
>]Gene here.  Steph bitched at me for not helping him out on the Robotech
>]stuff that's been going through lately (I'm a Robotech player... ack!
>]Gasp!).  Ok, I've got to agree with Steve here on this one
>]
>]Don't mix and mech!  It's just plain irritating and it wastes everyone's
>]time.  I've been looking over the suggestions for converting a Mac II
>]into BTech terms and chuckling my head off.  I spent a long while a few
>]years ago (when I first played BTech) trying to convert Robotech mech's
>]into BTech.  After a lot of headaches I figured out that it's utterly
>]pointless.  The styles of the games and the tech of the games don't
>]match and never will.  Honestly, the Mac II's guns are closer to
>]NAC/10's than Long Toms IMHO but who really cares.  If you want
>]Robotech, use Robotech.
>
>Well, some people just can't stay with 'Mechs under 150 tons. :)
> 
>]Ok, some of you have been arguing that Mekton with MTS allows you to
>]design ANY mecha.  Wrong.  Take a look at Mekton's scale and it's weapon
>]ranges.  Only missiles have a decent range and even they cap off at 25
>]km (the 500 hex ranged missiles that get HUGE!).  I was rather
>]dissapointed that Mekton has the same problem as Btech:  weapons ranges
>]are a joke.
>
>True, but at least RTG openly admits it in the Mekton II rules. It mentions
>that if you want the *real* ranges for their weapons they would provide the
>figures if you provided the football field to play the game in. 
>
>You could always blame it all on Minovski particles. :)
>
>]The only consolation I could find was that the Mekton
>]damages are closer to real life (well, or to anime-life at least).  Go
>]ahead and TRY to reproduce the Raider X in Mekton TS rules.  Can't be
>]done.  The Rifleman was FASAs attempt to clone it and everyone I know
>]thinks the Rifleman is a useless mech for AA duty.
>
>Even with enhanced sensors, linked +2 accuracy beam weapons and some other
>collection of goodies in the MTS?
> 
>]My advice is pick a game and play it.  Stop trying to convert them all
>]to each other's systems.  Each game has a different feel and style of
>]play.  Just enjoy playing the game.  That is the essential reason you're
>]playing them, right?
>
>Right, but it still is fun to try and get something *like* what you saw in
>another game. Even if you do get a headache later.
>
>(I'm trying to figure out how to build the SDF-1 and various O'Neills using 
> MTS.... for the heck of it.)
> 
>]If anyone is wondering why I'm rather vehement about the topic of
>]conversion, it's cause I was told that any mech could be designed using
>]MTS.  I said, ok, lets just clone a Warhammer from BTech... what a
>]headache!  I did it but who's going to use it anyways.  It's really
>]rather pathetic compared to most Mekton mecha. (or should I say meks :)
>
>What were the stats like?
>
>])
>]
>]
>]Gene Marcil
>]
>]Psychology Student, Gamer, and Toxic Insect Shaman.
>]What more could you ask for in a housepet?
>]
>]Mecha. n.  Those annoying indigestible thingies that stole our acting
>]jobs.
>]	(from a dictionary found in Godzilla's town library)
>]
>
>Subject: Patrick Chester            |Words to live by:
>Age: NOYB                           |"Military action is important to the     
>Address: A place                    |nation--it is the ground of death and     
>Email:wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu    |life, the path of survival and destruction
>Political Views: Somewhere in orbit |so it is important to examine it."-Sun Tzu
>Blackmarks: Politically Incorrect   |Famous Last Words:                        
>(hobbies)   Anime Otaku/Trekker     |--If you cut me down, I will only become
>            Technocentric           |more powerful...  
>            Netrekker (claypigeon)  |--Shhh!! There it is again....           
>            Whole bunch of -isms    |--Use the bazooka to open the door...
>     Won't remove Sun Tzu quote to  |--I cut the red wire...
>     make the Greens happy ;)       |--I have a *very* bad feeling about this
>
>-- 
><***** INSERT LAWSUIT DEFLECTION TEXT*****> 
>
>I speak (type actually) for myself only. Even if I did decide to 
>speak for UT, no one would listen. 
>
>Flame away, I don't bleedin' care...

Gene here again.  Ok, as to the under 150 ton remark, what game are you
talking about?  Btech stops at 100, Robotech are fixed but the Mac II is
huge (250 or so I think... it's been a while and I've rarely seen them
used in play), and MTS has no limits.

As to the MTS Raider X... nope.  You accuracy would be similar but the
range is still wrong (it's definately a football field model).

As to Mekton admitting to botching the ranges on purpose... well, at
least the don't use a B.S. excuse like "Targeting computer tech got real
primitive but they can still make lasers and gauss cannons".  I'm still
working on why Clan weapons have sucky ranges.... they never suffered
the Succession wars... and why is Star League grade gear armed with
those ranged weapons.... ack!  Tpphhptt!

As to conversions... ack.  I suppose everyone has to do something
unhealthy every once in a while just to stay healthy    :/

And finally, the MTS Warhammer.  I'm posting it here just so I can
kind of say I didn't do it for absolutely nothing... at least I 
posted it and someone, somewhere just might test it out... someday.
If you do, give me feedback.  Hell, comment/flame/worship away!

Mekton Warhammer (3025 standard model, no variations)
 
Maneuver Value:  -7
Actions/Turn:    +0
Total Cost:      210.8
Tonnage:         70
 
Servo    Type/Space/Kills/CP   Armor/Type/CP   Total CP
-------------------------------------------------------
Torso        LH/18/12/14        10/Ablat/5       19.0
Head         MW/10/4/6          5/Ablat/2.5       8.5
Arm (x2)     LH/14/5/8          8/Ablat/4        24.0
Leg (x2)     LH/8/8/8           6/Ablat/3        22.0
 
PowerPlant   LH/14/14/14         Cool            14.0
-------------------------------------------------------
                                     Total:      87.5


Weapon       WA/Range/Kills/DMG/Shots    CP/Eff/Cost/Space  Location
--------------------------------------------------------------------
PPC (x2)         +0/10/1/7K/inf      17.5/2.3/20.3/13.9     RA/LA
  (fragile, 1 turn warm-up (a touch of Solaris VII))
SRM-6            +0/5/2/2K/90        5.4/-1.3/4.1/8.0       Torso
  (can only fire in salvos of 6)
Med Laser (x2)   +0/5/1/4K/inf       2.5/0.3/2.8/1.9        Torso
  (fragile)
Small Laser (x2) +0/3/2/2K/inf       1.1/.1/1.2/0.9         Torso
Machinegun (x2)  +0/3/2/1K/--        0.5/-0.3/0.2/1.1       Torso
  (BV3, machinefire)
 Standard Ammo   200 shots           10.0/4.0/14.0/2.0      Torso
Foot (x2)        +0/melee/6/6K/--    2.8/0/2.8/2.8          RL/LL
--------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      Total:  72.7
 
Main Sensor (Striker, cost 2, kills 4, range 4km, comm 800 km,
                head, space 1)
 
 
Additive Systems (total: 13.2)
--------------------------------
Cockpit (cost 0, space 1, head)
Weapons link (cost 12, space 0, TIC linking SRM-6 and all meds, MGs,
                and smalls)
Spotlight (cost 0.2, space 0.2, torso (left shoulder) - FASA claims
              that it has one... at no cost)
Esc. Pod (cost 1, space 1, head)
 
 
No Multiplicative Systems (total: nil)
 
Movement (Walk, MA = 4)
 
Standard Hydraulics (cost 0, kills 8, space 0, dmg bonus 0)
 
Cost (w/0 mult)                175.4
Base Weight                     87.7
Cost (after mult)              175.4
Efficiency (-17.7 tons)         35.4
Cost (w/eff)                   210.8
Final Weight                    70.0
Scale                            1/1
 
No Remote or Command Armor


Explainations for some stuff:
1)  I tried to keep all the weights as close as possible, especially
weapons.
2)  I scaled the damage with the assumption that Mekton damage is
somewhat exponential (look at the MTS missile description for details).
3)  I used the shitty ablative armor (lots of it) to simulate the
strip-off style BTech armor.
4)  I put in the link to simulate the most common attack at short range
for a Warhammer (everything but the kitchen sinks... er.. PPCs).

Anyways, by Mekton standards, it's a pretty wimpy mech.  Lots of guns
but it's slow (damn slow by Mekton standards) and it can't take a
long fire fight (no endurence).

That's it from the Canuck corner.

Gene Marcil

What happens if a Thor picks up a Warhammer and slams it into a Loki?

Disclaimer:  These thoughts are not my own.  I am being fed subliminal
             messages by David Lynch's evil twin who is actually the
             arm.  By the way, what is the difference between a duck?