HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: May we ever blame students?
Date: 27 Sep 92 11:42:34 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

I acknowledge the special context of Vera B.'s remark about not
being too quick to blame students.  But may I try to broaden that
issue?

When it comes to arguing in general about what's happening to higher
education, everybody and his dog is blamed *but* the students.  For
example I'm a charter subscriber to _The Teaching Professor_, a
useful newsletter which gleans tidbits on teaching strategies from
appropriate journals and elsewhere.  Not once have I seen in TP the
slightest suggestion that horses led to water may simply not be
thirsty.

I probably should say "driven to water" since the students have no
choice but to be there if they want the degree.  (Paul Goodman used to
compare college students to prison inmates.)   I hesitate to bring
this up because with some of us it's almost heresy to suggest that
anyone but us is to blame: we are supposed to both motivate and teach.
Easy to say! 

Is it strange, or maybe not so strange, that in spite of the fact that
generations of undergraduates and their parents are being seriously
shortchanged, and in spite of a slew of books critiqueing higher
education, some of them best-sellers, there is still no substantial
student-parent protest?  Is it possible that the public, in the form
of students and their parents, has a vested interest in the status
quo?

I know there are newsgroups specifically for education issues, but I'd
rather try for a broader spectrum. 

*- Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>* :All opinions expressed herein:
*There is no privileged position.* :are my own and are not to be :
*	-God, Derrida, others    * : attributed to my employer   :





Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:16992 rec.arts.sf.written:13083
From: s891961@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Peter David Cupit)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Notes on Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy
Date: 28 Sep 92 09:14:09 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre
NNTP-Posting-Host: minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au

mem@mv.mv.com (Mark E. Mallett) writes:

>A generation or more of Japanese prior to 1930 were taught that a war
>with the West was not only inevitable, it was part of their destiny.

>As for social engineering-- my goodness, we can't even predict the
>weather.

  The weather is not the same kind of a system as a large group of people,
  advertising wouldn't work if people were not predictable.

  I think of religions as ways of getting people to have the same mindset
  to make them predictable as groups.  

  I also think that some organization ie Greenpeace use things like the 
  Greenhouse effect (which -to the best of my knowledge- is a) not
  happening and b) not agreed upon as a possibillity since all the model
  show different results) to manipulate large groups of people.

  I feel confused about the long term aims of some groups in society
  who appear very interested in changing our outlook.

  Frank Herbert has things to say about the sociologists in 'The Santaroga
  Barrier'.  

  I think our society is manipulated from behind the scenes mainly by
  multi-national corporations who appear to me to have long-term
  plans and appear to me to work as separate states who need to
  manipulate society to exist but are only guided from within.

  Just some thoughts,

  Peter  Cupit.


  s891961@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au
  s891961@godzilla.cgl.rmit.oz.au
  
>-mm-
>-- 
>Mark E. Mallett  MV Communications, Inc./ PO Box 4963/ Manchester NH/ 03108
>Bus. Phone: 603 429 2223    Home: 603 424 8129     BIX: mmallett
>Internet: mem@mv.MV.COM  ( uucp: ...{decvax|harvard}!mv!mem )
>Looking for news and mail in southern NH / northern MA?  Try MV!
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Literature students
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:39:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: cfdev1.9210061539.AA16676
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway


wwhitman@nevada.edu (MICHAEL WISE) writes:
 
> Why do rapid feminists who hate Hemingway and everything he stands for take
> a graduate course devoted to him? Just want to know.
 
Perhaps they heard that Hemingway likes fast women.
 
Mark
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jciliber@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jon Ciliberto)
Subject: Re: Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller
Organization: University of Hawaii
Distribution: rec.arts.books 
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 04:26:48 GMT

A number of people have asked me to send them the address for edward r. hamilton
in response to to my inquiry on the quality of this company. unfortately, 
shortly after sending in my order, i threw away the catalog, so i no longer 
have their address. if anyone out there has it handy, could they post for the
millions?
--
Don't be a slyboots           |					  Jon Ciliberto
Cunning, shrewd, a rogue      |			jciliber@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Don't be a shyboots,          |________________________________________________
Nobody likes a slyboots.   - "Things Not to Be", Steve Martin
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Enforced Shakespeare?
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 29 Sep 92 21:43:46

We'll see.  I wouldn't put it past the politically correct.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.misc,aus.sf,rec.railroad
From: matthew@joyce.cs.su.oz.au (Matthew Geier)
Subject: Whats the title/Author of this story
Reply-To: matthew@cs.su.oz.au (Matthew Geier)
Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:01:01 GMT
Keywords: SF railways mars

 Some time ago I read a SF novel that was set on Mars and featured a
railway system on Mars.
 I cant remember the Author or Title now , and no one I know seems to
have heard of it.

 The story opens with a man 'sail boarding' across the deserts of mars,
when he see's a 'green man' waving at him. He hops of the the sail board
to investigate , the greem man vanishes and the wind gets the sail board
which flys off with out him.
 I wanders around eventually finding a remote place next of one of the
railway lines that cross the planet, where he decides to camp.
 Some how the location ends up with a siding , and a town somehow forms
populated by people who for some reason can live in the cities.
 The town at one stage ends up with a major mineral processing plant next
to it.
 I clearly remember the trains being powered by Fusion heated steam engines
and that the locomotives were 'AI's'.
 The book had all sorts of completely silly situations and characters, and
some how the founder of the town saves it from destruction by a little
time travel. Even accounting for the silly-ness of the rest of the book the
time travel bit was really badly done.

 The reason im looking for this book is that it appears to be the only case
where my interests in SF and railways meet in one book. Im now looking for
a name for my railway BBS and thought that book might provide a name..
(Particularly the name of the siding at the town.. ).

Matthew Geier,
matthew@cs.su.oz.au
From: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Talk Of The Town
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:29:41 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:

>No, just "vulgarity".  As in all-round crudeness.
>
> > Not what I mean at all; I mean materialism -- or in the case of _The
> > New Yorker_, arch-materialism.
>
>If you mean materialism, then say so.

     Cheerfully.  As long as you understand that materialistic is expanded
as tacky, pretentious, middle-class, ignorant and, concisely, vulgar.

                                                 -- jf
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: literature students
Date: 27 Sep 92 03:48:25 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

In article <r3!p74+.dani@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard):
>>...students spout formulae instead of thinking for themselves?...
>>Does it take a certain level of experience and maturity for students to 
>>begin thinking for themselves?
>
>I think you're being overly harsh.  Yes, it does take a certain level of
>experience to analyse a novel.  As the saying goes, experience is what
>you're supposed to have coming out, not going in.  

Fair enough.

>What you call "thinking for themselves" is
>the stage at which, through this experience, they've acquired enough
>finesse to know when the formulae apply and when they do not.
>
But part of what bothers me is that the formulae seem to have come to mean 
more to many professors and students than fresh or different views of a
text.  I don't mean that we should analyze literature in a vacuum... and yet
I think we've gotten stodgy in that we look for the same old symbols over
and over and the same old books over and over...  I think it's important to
look at literature in new ways in the classroom.  Some professors do this and
encourage this.  

I thin it builds on my frustration with reading mostly dead-white-male authors.
I want to study (for credit) contemporary works and works from non-traditional
or non-white-male anyway points of view.  I want to hear what my classmates 
*really* think, not what they've been taught to think.


-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
From: roger@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (roger.s.tait..jr)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Dashiell Hammett
Keywords: Red Harvest
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:34:07 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct5.224337.5642@oracorp.com>, harper@oracorp.com (Douglas Harper) writes:
> 
> Now, can anyone tell me what the insult "fish eater" from the same book
> means?

I don't have the book in front of me, but it might be an anti-Catholic slur
(left over from the days when Catholics were forbidden to eat meat on Fridays,
and traditionally ate fish instead). 

-- 
-----------------
Roger Tait
att!hoqax!roger
AT&T Bell Labs Publications Center      Holmdel, NJ
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: lew@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (lewis.h.mammel..jr)
Subject: Re: Nietzsche Kietzsche Koo (was: stuff about Camille Paglia)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 01:33:52 GMT
Summary: putdown

In article <1aau8qINNqe2@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum) writes:
> 
> In a previous article, heidi@wolf.net.com (Heidi Wolf) says:
> >
> >
> >Perhaps Camille Paglia is to feminism what Nietzsche's sister was
> >to Nietzsche's philosophy....
> >
> >
> >Heidi Wolf
> >
> 
> 
> Now there's a GREAT put-down!


Yeah ... of Nietzsche's sister. Good name for a rock group, huh ?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith)
Subject: Re: Native American Indian novels
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 21:17:23 GMT
Distribution: usa

rahim writes:

	Could someone recommed some Native American Indian novels, in 
	which native spirituality is encountered.



There are the Carlos Castenatos (spelling approximate) books starting
with "The Teachings of Don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge".  There are
four or five books in the series.

There is the "Medicine Woman" series by (I think) Lynn Anderson.

There is a little of the spiritual in Tony Hillerman's detective
stories set amongst the Navajo.  I'm not real fond of Hellerman,
but thousands ares; enough to get him on best seller lists.

I also read a pretty good mystery story about a Native American lawyer
in San Francisco.  I forget both author and title at the moment.  I
believe the author's last name begins with "Y", like Yesbro or some
such.  I will look for others of his.  

I also enjoyed "The Education of Little Tree".  Its a story of a boy
growing up with his grandparents in Appalacia.  They were Cherokee.

Another that doesn't have as much to do with spiritual matters but is
a good story about problems facing modern tribes caught between cultures
is "I Heard the Owl Call My Name".  This is a story of a missionary
who goes to live with a band in coastal British Columbia.  Very moving.
They made an ok movie out of it, but the book is much better.  

For great fun and some spiritual material read the "Fencepost Chronicles"
by William Kinsella.  He's better known for the book made into "Field of
Dreams".  The Fencepost stories are in three or four volumes of short stories
about the Ermineskin tribe in Hobina, Alberta.  The spiritual comes from
the tribes 400 pound medicine woman who rides in the back of the pickup
truck whenever she has to leave the reserve.


Nice thread, hope to see other postings.


William Sburgfort Smith
Intel, SSD
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Reinforced Burns (was Re: Enforced Shakespeare?)
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:13:17 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

Francis Muir writes:
>
>In Soviet Russia Burns was certainly more widely distributed than 
>any other foreign poet -- maybe any other poet. 

Now, I did know that Burns was well known in Commonwealth, and
Near-'wealth countries.  But this does surprise me.  On reflection, I
can see how in *Soviet* Russia, Burns would be popular; and I can see
that he would be easier for a non-native speaker of English to 
comprehend.

>Read Burns and find out why. 

I have.  I don't like him, much.  I prefer Tom Moore, actually, and
mideival minstralry.

	Larry "Divertion" Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu          \  "People ought to fight for their law as
The insane don't need disclaimers \  for a wall."  -- Heraclitus, #100
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:20:39 GMT

In article <9209290327.AA03235@cfdev1.shearson.com> mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
}
}hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu (Heather) writes:
} 
}> BTW, many prominent women authors have published in Playboy.  It's a
}> nice subversive thing to do, in my opinion.  Imagine all these guys who
}> buy the magazine to ogle the Playmates and wind up reading the work of
}> some creative, intelligent woman.
} 
}I wonder what makes Heather think they read the articles.  This reminds
}me of a story told by some comedian during the early 80s.  He complained
}that Reagan's cuts kept some company from producing braille editions of
}Playboy.  "Imagine," he said, "Now the only people who really DO read Playboy
}for the articles can't do it."

I, for one, read the articles, as did my mother before me, believe it or not.
She once shocked me when we visited a bachelor friend who had a copy on his
coffee table by handing it to me to read so that I wouldn't be bored.  I thought
this would be taboo!  Imagine my surprise.

I heard that Ray Charles reads playboy in braille.


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: cathy@techbook.com (Cathy Gaupo)
Subject: Fresh air review of a book
Organization: TECHbooks of Beaverton Oregon - Public Access Unix
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 01:13:15 GMT

Someone recently told me that they heard a review of a book about
some Montana firetroopers who go into a fire to put it out.

It sounded very interesting and intense.  I would like to read it but I
don't know the author or name of the book.

If someone knows, would you send me a note saying the title.

Thanks,

cathy@techbook.com

Cathy

-- 
cathy@techbook.COM  Public Access User --- Not affiliated with InterCom
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-0636 (1200/2400, N81)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: WEBER@JEDI.SSD.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM (Kevin Weber)
Subject: Re: Wodehouse Question: Wooster & Jeeves
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: 78-30
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 00:02:43 GMT

Thank you very much for the very detailed response to my query.  However,
as Art Willis alluded to in another posting, the story lines often refer to
events which appear in books which were yet to be published, as they appear
in your list and verified by my copies.  The ultimate questions becomes:
Are some of the novels, especially those published posthumously, meant to
be read in an order other than by published date?

This question is obviously not easily answered.  As a service to this
bulletin board I will begin to compile a chronology of major events and
perhaps some time in the future post my findings.  I obviously have quite a
bit of reading yet to do.

Thank you again!

Kevin Weber
From: maverick@fir.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SUBSCRIBE, PLEASE
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:14:36 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: fir.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <80952@ut-emx.uucp>, jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann Zimmerman) writes:
|> In article <563@arrl.org> jkearman@arrl.org (Jim Kearman) writes:
|> >SUBSCRIBE
|> 
|> This is remarkably open-ended, seeming to lack both punctuation and
|> direction. I am uncertain how it should be parsed; as an imperative,
|> as a plea? "Subscribe!" or "Only subscribe"? To what? By whom? Can
|> this be a concealed advertisement from the Magazine Publishers
|> Association? 

I think he meant it etymologically -- in which case we are both
complying.

	Vance
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: yarnot@csusac.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Subject: Re: Fido O'Toole?
Organization: Moi?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 03:02:10 GMT

>francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
> 
>        one stone
>        two houses
>        three ruins
>        four grave-diggers
>        one garden
>        some flowers
> 
>        one racoon
> 
>        a dozen oysters a lemon a loaf of bread
>        a ray of sunlight
>        one groundswell
>        six musicians
>        on3e door with doormat
>        one Mister decorated with the Legion of Honour
> 
.... and a partridge in a pear tree?

It must be my line of work, but I kept thinking what a *great* kiddie-picture
book this would be!  Illustrating the two lovers would be a challenge, but....
>        one more racoon
> 
>        one sculptor who sculpts napoleons
>        one yellow flower called care
>        two lovers on a big bed
>        one receiver of contributions one chair three turkeys
>        one cleric one boil
>        one wasp
>        one floating kidney
>        one racing stable
>        one unworthy son two Dominican brothers three grasshoppers
>                one collapsible chair
>        two whores one amorous uncle

      ...etc...
-- 
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | A lifetime of smirking behind your hand
                              | is a lot better than a few seconds of
                              | triumph.
CSUS depends on my every word.              Kinsella, _Box Socials_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: literature students
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 18:13:47 GMT


> barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard):
 
>> ...students spout formulae instead of thinking for themselves?...
>> Does it take a certain level of experience and maturity for students to
>> begin thinking for themselves?
 
> I think you're being overly harsh.  Yes, it does take a certain level of
> experience to analyse a novel.  As the saying goes, experience is what
> you're supposed to have coming out, not going in.
 
I don't know that "Harsh" is quite the right word, here -- but a number
of people are expressing similar thoughts.  Dani may not have seen the
articles where facts about Barclay's background have come out.  But
being similarly torn between the arts and the sciences, I am more likely
to remember.
 
Barclay, as I recall, got a degree in English Lit, went back and got
degrees in Mathematics and Physics and is now taking a course or two
while thinking about which grad school to attend (for literature).
 
My guess is that Barclay is frustrated because the other students are not
at her level.  When one is used to taking a senior level Math or Physics
class, one can be assured that nearly all of the students will have the
necessary background.  It is difficult to take a Real Analysis class
without having had Advanced Calculas, which in turn requires the general
Calculas class.  Students without the right background are weeded out.
 
On the other hand, no such process occurs in the arts.  Classes in the
liberal arts often have students whose backgrounds vary.  For example,
when I switched from a graduate program in Mathematics to one in Philosophy,
I took a course in Kant.  Much of what he wrote was a response to Hume or to
the rationalists.  I had read some of Leibnitz' philosophy, but knew little
of the work of the other philosophers to whom he responded.  Many others in
the class had a much better background.
 
There is nothing unusual about Barclay being frustrated at the level of student
in an upper division literature class.  However, there might be something
unusual about her expectations.
 
Mark
 
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.poems
From: hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com (Holly Hendricks)
Subject: Re: Julian of Norwich
Reply-To: hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com
Organization: DEC
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:44:29 GMT


A songwriter named Sydney Carter has written a beautiful
song about Julian of Norwich, which is how I first learned
about her.

Gordon Bok, Ann Mayo Muir, and Ed Trickett have made a
recording of it on "Bok, Muir, and Trickett: The
First 15 years vol II".  (It was an an earlier album as well,
but this is the one I have with me here at work now!)

From the liner notes...

"Julian, according to Sydney Carter, who wrote this song, lived
at about the time of Chaucer in a cell (she was a hermit and
a mystic) in what is now the Chapel of Julian in Norwich, England.
It is said that Julian spoke to her God in a vision, asking why
evil was necessary in the world.  In reply, she was told that it 
was indeed necessary, but that "all will be well; all manner of
things shall be well".  In one of her visions, her discussions
with her God, she reported:"He did not say that you would not be
belaboured; He did not say you would not be traviled.  He did say 
you would not be overcome".   "

I'm sure it's under copyright, so I'll just quote a little
of the song:

	Loud are the bells of Norwich and the people come and go
	Here, by the tower of Julian, I tell them what I know

	Ring out, bells of Norwich and let the winter come and go
	All shall be well again, I know

	All shall be well, I'm telling you, let the winter come and go
	All shall be well again, I know
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
   Holly Hendricks
   Digital Equipment Corporation, Nashua NH 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=