HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 00:25:15 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Apropos my Prince of Thieves errors, Aryk Nusbacher writes>
 
>What's the point?  It's fiction!
 
>One of the joys of writing or producing fiction is that you can have
>manhole covers when you want them, and executioners can use anvils,
>and you can call the Seljuk Turks "Turks". If you're going to go after
>that sort of thing, you can knock Bill Shakespeare for having clocks
>striking in ancient Athens.

I disagree. "Prince of Thieves" is fiction, not fantasy. When fiction
is set in a known place at a known time in history, we have a right to
expect the producers to make it historically consistent. 

The fiction is in the story, not the environment thereof. Of course
nobody expects an adventure movie to be 100% archeologically correct.
But if historic consistency is irrelevant, then Robin could have
ridden a motorbike! Mistakes which are obviously due to indifference
or sloppy research are not acceptable, especially when it would have
been so EASY to do it right.

The truth is, I just thought it was a bad film, and I derive perverse
pleasure from finding faults in it. That is the point... As to Brian
Blessed and Sean Connery (each appearing for about 1 minute), they
hardly outweigh Kevin Costner and several other badly cast characters.
(Bletch!)
 
 >>When Robin's father rides out, he is overwhelmed by some
 >>20 men on foot. A mounted knight could easily have broken
 >>through such a skirmish line, killig a couple, and escape.
 
>Thus providing a quick ending to the story, and saving us from hearing
>the Sherriff of Nottingham explain to Guy of Gisborn why he wanted to cut
>Robin Hood's heart out with a spoon. Bad trade.

Well, it would have been so much BETTER and not much harder to do,
to make the attackers a truly superior force. As it is, the knight
just rides up to them and stops. Looks ridiculous.
 
William

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 18:30:21 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep9.163333.8406@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>In article <716037084.F00005@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>>aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writeth:
>>
>> AN> If Scadians spend the cash now dropped on big, fancy, shiny dress steel
>> AN> on hiring history teachers...  seminars, not swords?
>>
>> AN> Of course that is ridiculous.  People spend money on what they think is
>> AN> important, not on what I think is important.
>>
>>And even that ass-u-me-s that they HAVE money; there are many who can barely
>>afford event entry and cheap cotton to hand-sew into garb, let alone any form of
>>armor, least of all big fancy shiny dress steel.  Don't forget, a VERY large
>>percentage (anybody know just how much?) of the SCA is college students.
>
>This adds some *major* assumptions.  We've had discussions in the past
>over SCA costs--membeship and armor, mostly.  It has been shown that
>armor can be fairly inexpensive.  I grant that cheap armor is going to
>have large, highly polished steel surfaces (though that can cost less
>than many might imagine), but functional and even period types of
>armor.
 
You know, at crown curia this weekend past, I heard the Kingdome
Seneschal make a financial report to us that basically said
"we're in *really* tough shape"...And that we needed a source
of readily available income. So I stood up and suggested a head
tax on event attendance. 1$ per person, per event they attend.

That would mean that in our barony, assuming 75 people average,
and assuming 5 events, Montengarde alone would provide the crown
with 375$ a year. we are a *little barony* by most standards.
A place like Lions Gate or Blaith an or might provide much more.

You should have heard the uproar. There were people who actually
called me an elitist snot for suggesting that taxes should be
placed on attendance to support the kingdom. These same people
seemed to think we should apply for government grants or, 
run *bingoes* to raise money.

You know, people, I'm already paying 15$ per event. 16 won't
break me, or *anyone* else who can already afford to go to the
event.

This leaves aside why an event needs to cost that much to put
on...which I will leave alone on the grounds that I refuse
utterly to autocrat a feast, and if I start going on about
the ticket costs, people will tell me I don't know what I 
am talking about.

Apparantly corpora forbids a kingdom to "tax" for revenue.
Sounds to me like we need to change corpora, or stop sending
our mambership cash to the people in milipitas.

Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
Until I read this I'd
managed to stay calm about the issue...
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Same Sex Consorts
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:35:34 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <8egJVMq00WB9BXJLQa@andrew.cmu.edu> ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder) writes:

>If people who have no particular interest, romantically, in each other
>can serve as sovereign and consort -- why do we still cling to the
>notion of one's consort being the 'inspiration' that spurs the
>winning fighter on to victory?  

Perhaps for the same reason we still cling to the notion that everyone
out there fighting is being honorable and chivalrous -- it doesn't happen
all the time, but it happens most of the time and is the ideal we strive
for. Otherwise, let's just have a karate tournament.

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West

--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: Re: Same-sex consorts
Organization: Department of Astronomy, University of Virginia
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 23:25:25 GMT

In article <9209130158.aa01627@mc.lcs.mit.edu> lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi) writes:

> In the first place, there is no period analog to same-sex consorts,
> even in fiction.  While we compromise our accuracy by allowing more
> women fighters than the handful allowable by historical precident, it
> seems to me that we do far more violence to our recreation when we
> allow something for which there is no justification.

It should be pointed out that there is ample historical precedent for
not having both a king and a queen on every throne. Personally, I find
it to be very confusing that some people insist that a particular form
of picking a particular kind of leadership, namely _always_ picking a
male AND a female by right of arms, is justified historically, when
the first was not _always_ so, and the second was not common at all.
If we are going to do rhetorical violence to our recreation, we
should at least be consistent about it.
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period music, bad ge
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:29:58

                                                          
 JB> -Ioseph of Locksley
 JB>  Grumpy Laurel
 JB>  (and who wishes dearly that the SCA would learn the difference between
 JB>  Bards, Minstrels, Jongleurs and so forth......but who 
 JB> has resigned himself)

 So Maestro Iosephus, which do you consider yourself?  Bard?  Trouvere?  Jongleur?   ..hmmmn, sounds like a chant:

                    Bards and Trouveres and Jongleurs, o my...

 (sorry, irresistable impulse, and I didn't....resist that is...*giggle*)

 -- Vashti


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pennsic Land Allocation
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 00:48:30 -0500

aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writeth:

 AN> If Scadians spend the cash now dropped on big, fancy, shiny dress steel
 AN> on hiring history teachers...  seminars, not swords?

 AN> Of course that is ridiculous.  People spend money on what they think is
 AN> important, not on what I think is important.

And even that ass-u-me-s that they HAVE money; there are many who can barely
afford event entry and cheap cotton to hand-sew into garb, let alone any form of
armor, least of all big fancy shiny dress steel.  Don't forget, a VERY large
percentage (anybody know just how much?) of the SCA is college students.
From: mabr@sweden.hp.COM (Morgan the Dreamer Broman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Wicca and the SCA
Date: 10 Sep 92 11:13:46 GMT
Organization: The Internet
X-Unparsable-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 11: 42:01 METDST


	For your information, a friend of mine recently tried to pass a coat
	of arms displaying a golden chalice and a cross.

	It was returned as beeing to obvious a reference to the Holy Grail and
	the Cross.

	I still agree with the the basic thought about the different ways of
	treating "house-broken" and "not house-broken" religions/faiths. We
	have run into this problem here in Sweden too. Display of different
	faiths should NOT be treated differently.
	The problem is that we are 20th century people with our ways of look-
	ing at religions. Which is better/worse than the "period ways" of
	doing it.
	
	May your Gods go with you whoever you are!
--
Morgan "the Dreamer" Broman			mabr@sweden.hp.com
a.k.a Morgan deGrey (in the S.C.A)
a.k.a Morlacad "Shade" ShadowHawk (in L.R.P.G)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| There are Fighters and Warriors. Fighters are many, Warriors few and	|
| WeaponMasters hardly any!					Morgan	|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp.
or by the Society for Creative Anachronism.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Pentacles (long winded, but hopefully useful)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:03:00 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Esmeralda la Sabia (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz) writes:

>This is incorrect. Arval did a great deal of research about the pentacle,
>and not only was it found in period, but it was found in the arms
>attributed to Sir Gawain in the story 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight'.
               ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^

In other words, a fictional character in a work of fiction.  
Also, if I recall correctly, that was the only reference
Arval found, or the only one he mentioned on the Rialto.

If the College of Arms is going to start accepting the
attributes of fictional characters as historical precedents,
then it's soon going to be registering persona names
based on elves, fairies, dragons, etc. as well.

-- Nicholas van Leyden

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Western Crown List (was Re: Inspiration)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:05:38 GMT

In article <1992Sep09.202155.18826@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>> In the West, if you're a member and you're an authorized fighter, it
>> is almost a given that you fight in the Crown Lists. 
>
>I wondered:
>
>> Are there really only 100 fighters in the West Kingdom?  
>
>Hal answered:
>
>> As I understand it, we're the only kingdom in the SCA to *ever* have a
>> Crwon Lists top 100 entrants.  So, while your comment is quite apt, we
>> appear to have a relatively high proportion of fighters that do fight
>> in the Crown Lists.
>
>Undoubtedly so, but that's quite different from "it is almost a given that
>you fight in Crown Lists".  That was the point I was making.

If you strip away the non-members and all those who have reason not to
fight *this* time or are otherwise not qualified (like--no one to
fight for), it probably isn't all that far from the truth.  Bear in
mind that we have quite a few people who don't get to many kingdom
events--like our folks from Lochac and Oertha.

The most authoritative figure I've heard for March Crown was 103
entrants and 9 more who failed armor inspection.  Two of those who
fought reside out of kingdom (and An Tirian knight and a misplaced
Westerner who lives in Caid).  Have I mentioned recently that the West
has *no* residency requirement?  

Ask nearly any fighter and they'll tell you they want to fight in
Crown.  The few exceptions are mostly Dukes.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:52:48 EDT
From: Therion <HZS@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: A new listserv

This seems rather timely .....

>From:         kfresco@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU
>Subject:      Medievalist feminist discussion list
>
>ANNOUNCING A NEW LISTSERV
>
>The Society for Medievalist Feminist Studies is pleased to announce
>the creation of a new open discussion forum for topics of interest to
>medievalist feminists (or feminist medievalists, if you prefer).  We
>invite subscriptions and contributions from anyone interested in any
>aspect of medieval studies that touches on, or might touch on, feminist
>studies/women's studies/gay and lesbian studies.
>
>The purpose of this listserv is to provide an opportunity for debate
>and discussion in a spirit of open-mindedness and collegiality.  The
>listowners have not taken it upon themselves to limit the terms of the
>debate, but strongly urge presentation a broad range of topics and
>points of view.
>
>To subscribe, send your message to "listserv@indycms" (bitnet) or
>"listserv@indycms.iupui.edu" (internet), requesting to subscribe to
>MEDFEM-L.  For the time being, there is one list owner.  If you have
>further questions, you may address them to her at iulg100@indyvax
>(bitnet) or iulg100@indyvax.iupui.edu (internet).
>
>We look forward to new subscribers and their contributions.
>
>Jennifer Rondeau
>Department of History
>Indiana University, Indianapolis
Xref: sparky rec.org.sca:12975 soc.culture.celtic:5892
From: bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: The High King of Ireland's Coat of Arms
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:52:42 +1000
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

In article <1992Sep9.131415.5758@maths.tcd.ie>, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta) writes:
>       I was in the National Heraldry Museum yesterday and took down the
> current High King's coat of arms (O'Connor-Don). Thought people might
> be interested:
>               Argent, A Oak Tree eradicated, vert.

        Are you planning on putting it back at some stage, or are you
going to keep it? And how did you get it out the door, by wearing it
and pretending you had it with you when you came in?

        I'll bet the security people had red faces when they found it
missing.

        8-)

        Sorry, sometimes I can't help myself.


              Wolfgang Langenmantel, Landsknecht recruit,
                    convent of St Monica, Lochac.

        Just what is a German mercinary doing, hiding in a convent? ;-)

                          Bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
                    DOD# 251  '84 VF 750   Closet Ducatisto
             Disclaimer. If you love your llama, let it lambada.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
Organization: University of Tasmania (Australia)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 05:58:34 GMT

As someone who just *loves* picking nits I thought I'd buy into this one.

In article <4efD_z200UjUQ1uMZ0@andrew.cmu.edu>, Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

> Besides, in the "Behind the Scenes" interviews, the stars (well Kevin
> Costner anyhow) made a BIG deal of how well researched and historical
> RH:PoT was.  So it's only fair to point out just how poorly researched
> and historical it was.

This was what got my goat too. I told myself I wasn't going to bother with
the Costner flick because I hate Costner's acting (and the movie looked
silly). I ended up seeing the Pat Bergin/Uma Thurman 'Robin Hood' quite by
accident and actually enjoyed it immensely. It was full of anachronisms too,
but it had a nice swashbuckling feel to it and did not take itself seriously.
Encouraged by this, I decided to give P of T's a try, and dragged my very
sceptical and reluctant art-movie buff girlfriend along. BIG mistake.

But the thing which really made the movie rankle was all the pre-release
hype about how goddamn accurate it all was. I read an interview with the
art director who boasted that they had even got the right kind of pigs.
Well, the pigs may have been accurate, but virtually nothing else was.

My favourites include:-
The fact that Azeem was a Moor, and yet was found in Syria (a long way from 
Spain)

His invention of the telescope several centuries before anyone else.

The fact that it took Robin about five minutes to work out the principle of
magnification with the telescope (when it takes a three year old about ten
seconds, but hey, we all know medieval people were thick)

The repeated references to the Crusades as attempts at the *conversion* of the
saracens.

All the bullshit black-magic nonsense.

All of the sword-fighting, including the use of weapons from the 13th, 14th and
15th centuries.

The fact that a mere sherriff was considered a suitable partner for a royal
princess.

I could go on, but that's enough nits for now. I despair of anyone ever doing 
a good movie set in the middle ages. Terry Jones of Monty Python
fame has a screenplay about the Peasants Revolt which he is trying to get 
funding for. It's a great story, and Jones is likely to do it accurately,
though what I'd really love would be for the whole thing to be in Middle 
English with subtitles! (Mr Wooden Costner did it in 'Dances with Camera'
with the Lakota Sioux, so why not?!)

Tim O'Neill
Tasmanian Devil



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans)
Subject: Re: Inflammatory rhetoric
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:09:17 GMT

In article <PA142548.283.716043403@utkvm1.utk.edu> PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>In article <3433@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
[An extremely well-reasoned and sane discourse, deleted to save space,
and because if you wanted to read it, you'd have read it the first time...]

>Please don't adopt a patronizing tone.

Please don't append a one-line comment to a sixty-line posting. 

Allienora Salton
mka Eleanor Evans
From: bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Using period words to refer to mundanities
Date: 7 Sep 92 20:48:52 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Gentles!

"car" spelled "carre" is a Middle English word derived from Norman
French and ultimately from Latin "carrus" which means cart.

"carriage" spelled "cariage" is also a Middle English word derived from Norman
French and ultimately derives from "carier" which means to carry.

Substitutes for "autocrat" differ according to the nature of the event.
For example, the "autocrat" of a scholae or university event might be
called "chancelor" ... interestingly enough, "chancelor" might be a good
replacement for "troll" since it derives from "cancellarius" meaning
"doorkeeper" in Late Latin.  "Chancelor" is spelled "chaunceler" in
Middle English.

"Steward" derives from Middle English < Old English "stigweard" from
"stig" (hall) and "weard" keeper.  Now it appears that the possibly
the best generic word for "autocrat" is pre-empted by the President
of SCA, Inc.  However, I do not see how this is necessarily so.  It
may still be possible to use the title as long as it is clear that
the "steward" in question is not the "steward" of the SCA.

Now for a minor exercise in reconstructive linguistics.  "gate"
derives from Middle English < Old English "geat".  Thus, "troll"
could possibly be replaced with "geatweard".

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Totally Ignorant

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: uzgiris@offroad.chem.wisc.edu (Jim Uzgiris)
Subject: What is the proper weapon for a gentleman?
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison
Distribution: rec.org.sca
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 19:57:00 GMT

I have a query for any friendly master of defense who would be willing to  
enlighten a novice as to how the weaponry in SCA is chosen.

Here is my general understanding of arms and armour in a historical  
setting (medieval England in this case):

plate armour became available about 1400 (various types of mail available  
all the way back to the Romans)

about 1490 gunpowder began to make armour obsolete (and castles)
	
by 1550, pikes and polearms had started to replace broadswords and battle  
axes as the standard battle field weapons; while the standard attire for a  
gentleman included a sword ("english sword" changing to rapier during the  
Elizabethan age (approx. 1550-1605)). Actually, I like to think of the  
rapier as the equivalent of today's .38 special--the social problems of  
the day also seem to be roughly parrallel.

After Shakespeare's time, the quality of personal combat with medieval  
type edged/pointed/blunt/fexible weapons declined as the real fighting  
switched over to gunnery.

Today, the West has lost most of the fighting knowledge gained from this  
period except for a few manuals and the more sportsmanlike moves of  
fencing, wrestling, and boxing. But, I was happy to see that many of the  
techniques listed by fence masters are to be found alive and well in the  
East. The classical bujutsu of Japan, Filipino sword/stick/dagger  
fighting, and numerous others have virtually the same movements that the  
European masters describe; and, if you study with a really serious  
traditionalist master, you get to learn about the more mundane aspects of  
the warrior life, like how to go wee-wee while wearing traditional garb.  
(Simplified technique= don't. go before suiting up).

Well, I have said more than I intended. My question is what weapons,  
armour, and style is most appropriate for the SCA combatant and how was  
this choice arrived at?
Organization: Engineering Design Research Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Fri,  4 Sep 1992 18:16:29 -0400 
From: Nils Hammer <nh0g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: parking//diesel pests
	<Bu1472.CqB@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>

If people want more enforcement of pennsic parking rules, they should
get more people to volunteer for security. I felt that I did not have enough
time to keep track of all cars staying too long in camp in my patrol zone. I 
mostly used polite reminders. Some of my people volunteered for security
too much. So, please encourage more people to volunteer, make it a 
household thing.

   I had also assumed that the truckers were vicariously enjoying pennsic, 
but this year I have been "corrected." I  was told that certain women 
camping near the road traditionally would take their shirts off when 
trucks honked for them. If you want them to stop honking, I figure the
best way would be to have more women camp near the road with their
shirts off, who PUT them ON when the trucks honk ;-)

Nils K. Hammer
nh0g@andrew.cmu.edu