HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Why there's no support for women's basketball
Originator: hillyard@tiger.msc.cornell.edu
Reply-To: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:04:46 GMT

From article <1dN803GO5enQ00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>, by ronnie@uts.amdahl.com (Ronnie Townsend):

> be tough for women's pro leagues to gain momentum here in the states... strange
> that in a society that basically spawned the liberated woman, we won't give 
> them their due as athletes and they have to go places where women are openly 
> regarded as second-class citizens to get paid to do what they do best... 
> 
> go figure! 
> 

Not so strange if all that matters is performance.  Why single out
the 1000th best at something and pay them just as much as number one  
because of her sex?  Isn't that sexism and bad news?

SEH

> 
> 
> -- 
> Ronnie
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not cynical... I just don't believe in anything....
> 
>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: The All "Home-State" Team?
From: adem1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (Adam Edward         Demeter        )
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:40:33 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University of Auckland

In Australia for rugby league, there is a series called 'State of Origin'
where all the players for all the teams play for the state in which they
were born.
I'm sure that this would be an instant hit for basket ball in the US.
Adam.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: kdaniels@wpi.WPI.EDU (Kevin Michael Daniels)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Larry Bird
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:30:18 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute


	Just saw on CNN that Larry Bird has retired.  He will most likely be
working for the Celtics next year, but I'm not exactly sure.  I don't think
this is a big surprise to anyone, I just think we Celtic fans didn't want the
inevitable to happen.

Kevin
From: m1wcc00@fed.frb.gov (Wayne C. Cook)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Debunking the standard myth was Re: Couple of thoughts..
Date: 14 Aug 92 14:59:44 GMT
	<8dZk03zS56LA00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>
	<XJAM.92Aug10093628@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU>
	<M1WCC00.92Aug13122515@mcfss2.fed.frb.gov>
	<XJAM.92Aug13172345@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Organization: Federal Reserve Board
In-reply-to: xjam@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU's message of 13 Aug 92 16:23:45 GMT

In article <XJAM.92Aug13172345@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU> xjam@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU (The Crossjammer) writes:

   >>>>> "Wayne" == Wayne C. Cook <m1wcc00@fed.frb.gov> writes:
     Wayne> Me: Say what you will about cultural and peer pressures - they're valid, just not the
     Wayne>     biggest reason for black dominance.  Basketball requires many abilities.  All of them
     Wayne>     can be improved upon except for jumping ability, and quickness.  Blacks can jump higher
     Wayne>     than whites. Period.  They're also quicker.  Period.  You can cite examples of Majerle
     Wayne>     and Chapman and maybe some others but they're not the norm.  High skying blacks are the
     Wayne>     norm in the NBA, NCAA, and even high school.  There is something genetic here.  Why can't
     Wayne>     it be swallowed and accepted?

/   Put up or shut up. Studies please. Not just your trivially empirical
/   observations.  Also, you need to prove that jumping and quickness are the
/   *primary* factors in NBA, NCAA, and high school success. This means
/   discounting teamwork, intelligence, stamina, hand-eye-coordination, et. al.

Blow me with the ultimatum.  A scientific study isn't necessary to
see the obvious.  All other factors being equal, the player who jumps
higher and is quicker is better.

/   Presuming that you can't come up with such data we must once again fall
/   back on the things we *know* affect basketball (nay any) ability. Hard
/   work, physical training, repeated drills, etc.

I responded to posts that heatedly stated that differences in ability
among races do not exist and that it is harmful to believe that there
is a difference.  Wake up.  Here's a theory.  Some white people in
Indiana love basketball and have as much desire as blacks in say, DC.
It was stated that the only reason blacks are better is because
they have more peer pressure and more time devotion.  Take 10, 100,
1000 guys from the two regions who would all tell you that bball
means everything to them.  You'll find a handful of whites under
6'5" who can dunk.  You'll find loads of blacks who can do it easily.
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Debunking the standard myth was Re: Couple of thoughts..
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:03:09 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Aug13.200750.24085@intelhf.hf.intel.com> sting@intelhf.hf.intel.com (Joe Bennett) writes:
>But before you disregard this post, remember that in the 30's, when the NBA had a large
>percentage of Jewish players, that people were saying that basketball was the perfect
>sport for Jews because of Jews physical makeup.  Never mind of course that back then,
>Jews tended to live in urban areas and play a lot of basketball in those areas growing
>up.  Or maybe you think Jews are superior to non-Jews at basketball, but African-
>Americans are superior still.
>
First, I agree, blacks dominate in hoops because they play the game more,
and value the game more(as a chance out of being poor).

However, using Jews in the 30 is a common yet very poor counter example,
because in the 30's there were no blacks in the NBA, not because they 
weren't good enough, but because the were being excluded due to prejudice.

Wayne can't prove blacks are superior genetically just by saying the 
NBA is 80% black, but you can't prove Wayne is wron by citing Jews in
the 30's because we can never know if the NBA would have been 80% black
in the 30's had they been allowed to play.




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"Many dreams come true, some have silver linings,  
I live for my dreams, and a pocketful of gold"      Led Zeppelin
******************************************************************************






Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: Perry@mte.ncsu.edu (Bill Perry)
Subject: Re: All North Carolina team
Organization: Mat. Sci. & Eng., NCSU
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:58:12 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.201214.27426@ncsu.edu> cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER
M GRAWBURG) writes:
>
>Hey!!
>
>Don't forget James Worthy!!!!!
>
>
>Chris
>
	In reply to someone elses areticle (deleted by mistake), Jordon, Worthy and
Brad Daugherty all grew up in North Carolina, along with Dominique Wilkins and
Chucky Brown.  I would take that starting five over anything Michigan or
Indiana can offer.  I'm sure there are mnay others in the NBA from N.C., but
I'm new down here.

Bill Perry
From: billms@eecs.umich.edu (William Mangione-Smith)
Subject: Re: Angola
Organization: University of Michigan
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 20:27:01 GMT

In article <Bt70y2.89E@ecf.toronto.edu> yewhin@ecf.toronto.edu (YEW HIN Jimmy) writes:

   I am a visa student from Angola and I am going to tell you something that will 
   upset many of you, specially in the US, but I swear to you over my grandfather 
   Kunta Abooba's grave, it is true. The reason our national team lost to the 
   Dream Team was because our team did not have enough time to prepare for the 
   games due to a tribal warfare in our countryside and some of our key players 
   were badly injured and could not make it to Barcelona.  The game was very close
   until the Charles Barkley elbow.  His intimidating style of play affected our   team morale; such hooliganism should not be allowed in international play.      Without all those problems, our team would have defeated the Dream Team since 
   we are superior technically specially in defense as you would know if you 
   watched our national league. 


Its not going to work.  The australian posters can't make me conclude that
all Aussie's are dopes, and you can't get me to believe that you actually
were hit quite hard on the head with the butt end of a spear while you were
young.  

I don't know what is getting more tiresome, the constant fake attempts to
make foreigners look bad with the obviously bogus and idiotic postings, or
the never ending claims that Tree Rollins bit Danny Ainge.

Bill
--
-------------------------------
	Bill Mangione-Smith
	billms@eecs.umich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: robert@landru.mtc.ti.com (Robert Treese)
Subject: Re: Roberts can't be traded!
Keywords: n
Organization: Manufacturing Technology Center, Texas Instruments, Dallas
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:42:14 GMT

In article <92231.073725KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu> KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>
>   In Stanley Roberts offer sheet was a no-trade clause, so all this
>speculation is for nothing, unless Stanley wants to leave.  This year was the
>nastiest as far as offer sheets that we have seen.  The Knicks front loaded
>their offer with Harvey Grant, to mess with the Bullets salary cap and the
>Mavericks pull the no-trade stunt on Orlando.

Roberts can be traded if he agrees to the trade.

Robert


Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: timlin@spot.Colorado.EDU (Michael Timlin)
Subject: Re: The All "Home-State" Team?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:34:02 GMT

markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205) writes:

>Just thought I would 'update' my NC team.

>PG: Michael Jordan (Wilmington)
>    Eric "Sleepy" Floyd (Gastonia)

>SG: Walter Davis (Pineville) 
>    Gerald Wilkins (Washington) 

>SF: James Worthy (Gastonia)
>    Dominique Wilkins (Washington)

>PF: Danny Manning (Greensboro)
>    Buck Williams (Rocky Mount)

>C:  Brad Daugherty (Black Mountain)
>    Charles Shackeford (Kinston)

>I'm not sure that Buck Williams played high-school bball in NC, but
>otherwise I am pretty sure.

>This is a pretty strong team, though I'd be amazed if one from Illinois 
>(hell, Chicago for that matter) or NY wouldn't beat it...

After about 10 minutes I came up with the following for Chicago/Chicagoland:

     Chicago                           Chicagoland
PG   I. Thomas (HS at Westchester St. Joe)
     T. Hardaway

2G   H. Hawkins                        K. Gill (Rich Central)
     N. Anderson                       C. Hodges (Rich East or Rich South)

SF   M. Aguire
     M. Liberty

PF   T. Cummings
     K. Norman

C                                      K. Duckworth (Thornridge)

and a few I'm not sure about:

Doug Collins
Johnny Kerr
Derek Harper
Eddie Johnson

I'm sure there are others, but I wouldn't bet much on this team against NC.

Mike Timlin
timlin@spot.colorado.edu
From: halpin@sw.stratus.com (Jim Halpin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Roberts can't be traded!
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:39:07 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <18AUG199215565266@pierre.mit.edu>, kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.) writes:
> 
> No, this isn't right. The rules are whenever a restricted free agent gets an 
> offer from a team which is then matched by his original team, then the original 
> team may not trade the player to the team making an offer from a year. However, 
> nothing prevents the original team from trading the player to a third team. In 
> fact, there was talk that after the Heat matched the Lakers' offer to Sherman 
> Douglas and then traded him to the Celtics, that the Celtics would trade Douglas
> to the Lakers. According to the rules, there is nothing illegal in doing 
> something like this.


	Nope, that last part isn't correct. The Celtics are prohibited from
trading Douglas to the Lakers for a full year after Douglas signed his contract.
It doesn't matter who currently owns the contract, the restriction still applies.


-- 
!	Jim  Halpin
!	halpin@turkey.sw.stratus.com
!	Marlboro, MA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: ortcm@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (thomas.mcguigan)
Subject: Re: Thoughts....Random, yet interesting
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:08:09 GMT

In article <18AUG199221261698@mitme5.mit.edu> kettler@mitme5.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.) writes:
>I may be flamed for this but personally, I don't think that the Shaq will win 
>ROY. Instead, I feel that Jim Jackson or Alonzo Mourning would have to be
>considered favorites for the ROY.

You may be right.  But, in defense of Shaq, I have been very impressed by the
attitude he has shown thus far.  He signed early (yes, for a ton of money, but
he could have held out longer and probably squeezed a few more dollars out),
making it possible for Orlando to match the offer for Roberts.  Most of the
columnists here in Orlando felt that there was no way Shaq would sign if
Roberts was still around.  They were saying that there was no way Shaq would
share the Center position with Stanley.  Instead O'Neal signs in time to
let his team retain a $3M asset.

And, recognizing that he still has a lot to learn, Shaq paid his own way to
attend Pete Newell's Big Man's Camp.  Some of the comments on his work, by
the staff - they all found him very eager, very coachable, and very hard-
working.  He listened, and worked hard to put into practice what he learned.
Oh, yes, and he hit the boards hard enough to loosen the attached recording
cameras.

Thus far, I've got no complaints.

Tom@Orlando
From: davidd@hobbes.swdc.stratus.com (David Deisley)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Dream Team
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:06:32 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

In article <1992Aug10.145840.1@cc.curtin.edu.au> thtxmail@cc.curtin.edu.au writes:
>
>Well the Olympics are over,and the dream team won.
>But did they win well enough?
>
>Well, yes and no.
>
>Charles "Mr Elbow" Barkley made himself look like a real creep
>and won no fans anywhere.
>
>Croatia using Petrovic, a few NBA rejects and Kukoc were ok but lacked the depth
>once the game started going. Stuck with the USA for almost a half. If the other
>players from Serbia had been available (ie: mainly Divac) would they
>have been able to last longer?
>
>Only Angola REALLY got absolutely whipped by the US, and while other teams
>MAY havew been able to be whipped by the US, most put up a GOOD fight.

Well, what's a good fight?  So the US team didn't come out in the first
5 minutes an build a 30 point lead.  Big deal.  By halftime they had
all the games won.  The only thing that slowed the Dream Team down
was themselves (and a few bizarre foul calls by the officials).

Please remember: when you have a comfortable 25-30 point lead, and
you know there is NO WAY IN HELL of the other team catching up, your
intensity lessens.  Just because the margin of victory wasn't 60 
points every game doesn't mean it wasn't an ass-whipping.  It was.

>
>And where did the USA boys get those egos from? After Magic and Stockton
>the rest basically acted like 2 year olds.

You're confusing confidence with ego.

>
>Good win, but the image most of the team left wasnt good.
>
>More later
>
>King Green Frog II


				David Deisley

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
|							|
|							|
|			no parking			|
|							|
|							|
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: elvis@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Chris Ham)
Subject: Aussies
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07:59:56 GMT

Why are people talking about Australian basketballers in
rec.sport.basketball.pro???

They don't quite qualify...except Luc...

ELVIS
ZZ...What the fu...
From: roberts@dme.nt.gov.au (baz 95442)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: My Opinion on the AUSTRALIAN basketball te
Date: 20 Aug 92 06:01:42 GMT
Reply-To: roberts@dme.nt.gov.au
Organization: Northern Territory Department of Mines & Energy

Who cares about basketball it's a womans game. What is really important is 
how much the Brisbane Broncos will win the flag by.
From: gary@ccs.northeastern.edu (Gary Duhaney)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Apology (Was: Race and Speed)
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:50:17 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU

In article <169hbkINNjfu@seven-up.East.Sun.COM> bih@bagheera.East.Sun.COM writes:
>My sincere apologies to anyone who may have interpreted any of my comments 
>("Men are not created equal") as being racist. I am not a racist, am no fan 
>of the KKK or skinheads, etc. I've even spoken at a rally commemorating
>the late Rev Martin Luther King (I have a dream...). I believe every man (person) has a 
>right to start on a level field to take advantage of what ever skills they posess. All I am 
>saying is that I believe genetics have some factor in determining what these 
>skills may be and that race may have an influence in the relative rates in which
>these genetics appear. 

Sounds like the "I can't be racist bacause I know a few good N*****S"
disclaimer to me.  It usually comes right before the statement.

Reminds me of a jackass that I saw on the MBTA(trolley) last year who
when his friends tried to quit him because of my presence (6'4, 210
vs 5'?" and average build).  He made the statement "I know what I am
talking about, my roommate was black".

I'm not calling you racist, just letting you know that one doesn't
have to be a flag waving, homicidal Nazi maniac to have
racist/prejudiced thoughts.

>
>Having said that, I am now officially bailing out of this thread.
>
>-Bennet
From: radkel@canctr.mc.duke.edu (R.CLOUGH)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Magic status?
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:15:05 GMT
Reply-To: radkel@canctr.mc.duke.edu
Organization: Duke U. Med. Ctr., Durham, NC

What is the current status on Magic Johnson's return to the NBA?  A friend
just told me that he was definitely coming back to the Lakers, which 
certainly stunned me.  I had understood that he might come back, pending
approval from his doctor and his wife, but nothing was yet certain.  So
who's right? My friend or myself?

--Rob Clough
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: hatch@gandalf.nosc.mil (Mark D. Hatch)
Subject: Re: All Indiana team...
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:45:11 GMT

In article <Bt4z5z.527@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J ) writes:

>From LewisM@jmb2.jmb.com Fri Aug 14 16:53:47 1992

>	This is posted for Mark Lewis... 
	


>G -   Tim Hardaway (one of the Gary schools, I believe (?))

Sorry, but Timmy is from the Chicago area.  He was recruited by UTEP out
of a Chicago area high school.

>Mike Lewis (LewisM@jmb2.jmb.com)

							Mark Hatch
From: wp01jst1@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (John Tomas)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: TONY, SCOTTY, TONY, SCOTTY
Date: 6 Aug 92 05:44:20 GMT


Simply not true that Tony K is not ready for the NBA; unless Mike J
(1-11, 4 pts) against PR is also not ready for the NBA.  And Mike didn't
have to face the DT.  From all reports he is better than both Petrovic
and Vlade Divac, and they are certainly NBA quality players.  Scotty
can say whatever he wants, but that doesn't make it so.  In fact, I
would bet against just about anything that Scotty says.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: billms@eecs.umich.edu (William Mangione-Smith)
Subject: Re: All Indiana team...
Organization: University of Michigan
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:30:30 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.184511.29839@nosc.mil> hatch@gandalf.nosc.mil (Mark D. Hatch) writes:

   In article <Bt4z5z.527@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J ) writes:

   >From LewisM@jmb2.jmb.com Fri Aug 14 16:53:47 1992

   >	This is posted for Mark Lewis... 



   >G -   Tim Hardaway (one of the Gary schools, I believe (?))

   Sorry, but Timmy is from the Chicago area.  He was recruited by UTEP out
   of a Chicago area high school.

   >Mike Lewis (LewisM@jmb2.jmb.com)


I have no idea if Hardaway grew up in Illinois or Indiana, but he certainly
could have grown up in Gary and been from a Chicagoland high school.  Grab a
map.  For a while the debate over a new regional airport centered around
Chicago, the burbs, and Gary.


Bill
--
-------------------------------
	Bill Mangione-Smith
	billms@eecs.umich.edu
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Who made the NBA prosper? (Re: All North Carolina team)
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:50:44 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Distribution: na
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

Its interesting to note that in all of this talk about the Bird/Magic era
and the Boston/LA series, the Sixers and Dr. J are left out. The Sixers were
a great team in the early eighties that were only able to put it together
for one year. Didn't someone say that Bird mentioned that he enjoyed
the Boston/Philly rivalry the most. Lest we forget the tussle between he
and Dr. J.

I had a computer game that was called "One on One" for my old Apple II,
which featured Bird against the Dr. It was probably the best computer
Basketball game I've played, with broken backboards and reverse slamming,
etc. Anyways, enough rambling.

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: cs4cb3@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Peter Granic)
Subject: Re: Shaquille O'Neal contract
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 00:41:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.042229.16503@techbook.com> jamesd@techbook.com (James Deibele) writes:
>jte@beefheart.cc.columbia.edu (Jeff Eldredge) writes:
>
>>No problem.  And while I'm at it, I don't think that Madonna, Stephen  
>>King, or Tom Cruise should be paid what they are being paid.  Obviously, I  
>>KNOW that basketball is entertainment.  That's why I go to over 20 NBA  
>>games a year...to be entertained.  That doesn't mean that I believe the  
>>suppliers of my entertainment should be paid 12 zillion dollars a year.   
>
>Sorry.  I can agree with you that they shouldn't be paid like that.
>However, the world we live in has said that they do.  

Bingo! 

Of course, Shaq could be underpaid in 4 years depending on new contracts 
then.  I hope he doesn't pull the pro athlete "I want my contract 
renegotiated" at that time.

Peter Granic

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: gidi@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami)
Subject: Re: Antonio Peeler
Organization: Brotherhood Of Breath
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:45:15 GMT

markts@mcl.ucsb.edu (Mark T. Schmidt) writes:
>If the Italy rumor is true

You don't follow this newsgroup too closely do you?

Peeler signed with the Lakers last week.  And even before he did, the
team he was rumored to go to, Benetton Treviso, was the one that
signed Terry Teagle.

Now back to the ``who pushed Bird into the deep end of the gene pool''
debate.


--Gidi
From: hatch@gandalf.nosc.mil (Mark D. Hatch)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: All Indiana team...
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:13:21 GMT
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego

In article <BILLMS.92Aug17163030@z.eecs.umich.edu> billms@eecs.umich.edu (William Mangione-Smith) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.184511.29839@nosc.mil> hatch@gandalf.nosc.mil (Mark D. Hatch) writes:
>
>   In article <Bt4z5z.527@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J ) writes:

>   >From LewisM@jmb2.jmb.com Fri Aug 14 16:53:47 1992

>   >	This is posted for Mark Lewis... 



>   >G -   Tim Hardaway (one of the Gary schools, I believe (?))

>   Sorry, but Timmy is from the Chicago area.  He was recruited by UTEP out
>   of a Chicago area high school.

>   >Mike Lewis (LewisM@jmb2.jmb.com)


>I have no idea if Hardaway grew up in Illinois or Indiana, but he certainly
>could have grown up in Gary and been from a Chicagoland high school.  Grab a
>map.  For a while the debate over a new regional airport centered around
>Chicago, the burbs, and Gary.

Hardaway grew up, and went to school, in Illinois.

>Bill
>	Bill Mangione-Smith

							Mark Hatch