HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Craig_Everhart@TRANSARC.COM
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: Snapified AMS
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:37:44 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

If you're running AFS, you may well want the source Andrew (ATK+AMS)
distribution anyway, to recompile and re-link with AFS libraries.  I
would guess that the CD-Rom version of the ATK binaries is built without
building a message-server or its support; that would correspond to how
folks in most environments will be wanting to use it.

You may even want to run AMDS, since you're interested in AMS + AFS. 
AMDS functions as a local-mail queueing and delivery system that treats
the whole AFS cell as a single local site.

		Craig
From: mjb@DOC.IC.AC.UK (Matthew Jude Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: messages and X windows
Date: 2 Sep 92 10:51:22 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

In article <AecLYQa4hFs604GANR@cantsc.canterbury.ac.nz> Jason Haar <cctr127@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz> writes:
>Hi,
>
>Over the past month or so I've been trialing the ATK binary distribution on
>our Sun server. 
>
>From my SPARCstation it ran/runs very well, and I'm already to announce its
>availability to the campus here.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't get it to run on NCD X-terminals - running ATK
>applications (like <bold>runapp lauchapp</bold>) causes the following error:
>
>   Could not open display; this program will not run without a window system
>
>Needless to say, windows was running at the time ;-)
>
>Any ideas where I should start looking for the problem? The server runs
>SunOS 4.1.2 and X11R5.
>
>Cheers
>
>Jason Haar, Network Consultant

For an immediate fix, try setting your DISPLAY environment variable to the
numeric IP address of your X terminal instead of its domain name like so:

   setenv DISPLAY 129.31.81.33:0.0

instead of diapason:0.0 (of course, these are the numbers and name for my
setup - replace them with yours ...)

I think you'll find this will work - it did for me.

Looking more closely, you'll probably find that your X terminals do not
appear in /etc/hosts - instead, you're using NIS or DNS to resolve these
host names. The problem is that you've linked with libraries with the
wrong version of the hostname functions - gethostbyname() et al -
probably you have a different version of these in your static libraries
than in your dynamically linked libraries. Your other X applications
are probably using the dynamic libraries, which have the right version
of these for your setup.

Solution? Link with -lresolv , add your X-terminals to /etc/hosts, or
update your libraries.

Hope this is of some use,

-Matt
-- 
| Matthew J. Brown  | Dept. of Computing | If God intended for us to go to   |
| mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk  | Imperial College,  | lectures He wouldn't have created |
| mjb02@cc.ic.ac.uk | 180 Queen's Gate   | double-sided photocopiers.        |
| Morven on Lambda  | LONDON SW7 2AZ     |          -IC RagMag 1991/92       |
From: wdc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bill Cattey)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: "slow networks"
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:41:27 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

Excerpts from mail: 31-Aug-92 Re: "slow networks" Harco de
Hilster@cs.kun. (2013)

> I haven't looked at the message server libraries close enough, but from
> what I've seen so far in the ATK code I must agree that for an Object
Oriented Toolkit the code isn't very 'object oriented'.

I think Craig could better answer this issue than I.  My understanding
is that the delivery system needed to function even on platforms for
which no port of the Andrew toolkit existed.  Certain internal
architectures could have been made cleaner if the object system was
used, but such was not an option.

My observation is that there are people who read and are comfortable
with ATK object system code, and people who read and are comfortable
with the message system code, but I don't believe I've ever met anyone
who was in both groups.

-wdc
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Subject: DECnet mail
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:54:07 GMT


Is there any way to convinced CUI/messages to send DECnet style mail
(HOST::USER)? I am using Ultrix sendmail so it will work as long as AMS does
attempt to send it.  I thought I had turned off all address validation but
apparently not.

Just out of curiosity, does AMDS support DECnet at all?

Yeah, yeah, I know, why use DECnet, but you see it tends to be prevalent and
rather necessary here where I work . . . 

Eric
--
/=============================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer     For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA  pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com          they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==============================- 2 Th 2:15 -==================================/
From: swh2y@GINGKO.CS.VIRGINIA.EDU
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: AMS Filtering
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:59:50 GMT
Organization: The Internet

I need some more information on Andrew Message System
filtering. Do you know of any papers, tech reports, etc.
that specifically talks about filtering?

Sonia Henry
From: rdew@ALW.NIH.GOV (Bob Dew)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: DECnet mail
Date: 3 Sep 92 20:38:13 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet


> Is there any way to convinced CUI/messages to send DECnet style mail
> (HOST::USER)? I am using Ultrix sendmail so it will work as long as AMS does
> attempt to send it.  I thought I had turned off all address validation but
apparently not.


You probably can't teach messages how to validate addresses with this
kind of syntax.  But presumably your local network has some sort of
Internet-to-DECnet SMTP relay host, capable of resolving DECnet mailing
addresses?  

If that's the case, then you could work around the problem by defining a
"dummy" domain, say ".DNET", in your AndrewSetup file, under
"AMS_ValidDomainSuffixes:".  Correspondingly, you'd list your
Internet-to-DECnet relay host address under "AMS-ValidDomainRelays:", in
AndrewSetup.

It would be up to the messages user, then, to change addresses of the
form, "HOST::USER", to "USER@HOST.DNET", when composing a mail message
destined for a DECnet recipient.

Messages would validate such address, and pass them along to the DECnet
realy host.

-Bob
From: cctr127@cantsc.canterbury.ac.nz (Jason Haar)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: messages and X windows
Date: 31 Aug 92 01:42:52 GMT
Reply-To: j.haar@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz
Organization: The Internet

<nl>
<nl>
Hi,<nl>
<nl>
Over the past month or so I've been trialing the ATK binary distribution on ou=
r Sun server. <nl>
<nl>
From my SPARCstation it ran/runs very well, and I'm already to announce its av=
ailability to the campus here.<nl>
<nl>
Unfortunately, I can't get it to run on NCD X-terminals - running ATK applicat=
ions (like <bold>runapp lauchapp</bold>) causes the following error:<nl>
<nl>
<excerpt>Could not open display; this program will not run without a window sy=
stem<nl>
<nl>
</excerpt>Needless to say, windows was running at the time ;-)<nl>
<nl>
Any ideas where I should start looking for the problem? The server runs SunOS =
4.1.2 and X11R5<nl>
<nl>
Cheers<nl>
<nl>
Jason Haar, Network Consultant<nl>
<nl>
PS: Anyone know how to load extra fonts on a VAXstation? I can't get ATK to ru=
n on them either - but this time a trace reveals its having font problems...
From: qralston@GL.PITT.EDU (James Ralston Crawford)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: "slow networks"
Date: 27 Aug 92 07:05:23 GMT
Organization: The Internet

> > Designing a graphical user interface on the basis of "slow
> > networks" is pretty stupid. But pointing that out to the UNIX
> > community is wholely unproductive.
> 
> Oh, come on Zalman.  Are you saying that you don't run Andrew apps
> to display on your RT at home over MCN & annex terminal servers via
> SLIP at 19200 bps?  I'm worried about these issues.  The X
> Consortium is worried too.

	Your point is valid, but my principal worry isn't SLIP at
19200bps, and won't be for quite some time.  Mine is, quite frankly,
seeing if there exists an AMS-ish mail reader that I can use at home,
from my 2400bps vt100-type dialin.  (Going to tell me to buy a
19200bps modem?  Make a donation.)

	I have come to conclusion that at 2400bps, EZmail isn't so
easy.  I've tried Niftymail, but come to the conclusion that although
better than EZmail, it isn't really that nifty, either.  I've heard of
CUI and VUI, but haven't had the time to try them out yet.  I've heard
of Batmail... as I understand it, an Emacs-extension of some sort...
but I have yet to lay hands on it.

	So, a question to those of you who have to answer email via a
plain dialin more than occasionally... what do you use?  What would be
ideal, IMHO, is something equivalent to elm, but understands the
concept of AMS folders.  So far, though, I've yet to be sufficiently
impressed by something AMS-ish to switch over from traditional email,
and elm.

	Regards,

James

-- 
James Ralston Crawford \ Advanced Graphics Lab                     The
qralston@gl.pitt.edu \ qralston@pittvms.bitnet                      Phantom
"Pitiful creature of darkness \ What kind of life have you known"  - of the
"God gave me courage to show you \ You are not alone"                 Opera
From: wdc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bill Cattey)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: "slow networks"
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:50:12 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

Thank you, Mr. Ralston for setting the stage for the following criticsm.

I don't have access to EZmail or Niftymail.
I do have a 9600 V32.bis slip connection to a workstation at home.
I don't use messages over it.  It takes too damned long to draw anything.

On a local workstation, messages is the best user interface for reading
mail I have used.  It was intelligently designed to do time consuming
things while you work instead of while you wait.  (Any xmh developers
listening?  xmh goes out of its way to make you wait when you're doing
what you have to do.  Do it the way messages does!)

I used cui for a while.  It is inappropriate to criticise its user
interface.  It doesn't have one.  As soon as an enlightented developer
suggested I think of cui as a tester for the message server, all it's UI
quirks made perfect sense.  I immediately stopped using it and am a
happier man for it.

Now I use vui.  It is what is available to me.  It seems that the UI was
purposely designed to frustrate anyone who has used any other mail
reading interface.  It insists on being menu driven, and on a 2400 baud
line you will sit through a lot of tedious redraws.  The commands seem
designed to make it most difficult to do the most common operations.

I suggest that if you have EZmail that you use it and not waste your
time with vui.  They tell me EZmail is much nicer to use than vui.  I'll
try it out as soon as I can.

Having leveled harsh criticism, let me put some things in perspective:
I am the leading advocate of Andrew use at MIT.
I think that there are a few simple things that could be done to
radically improve the way mail reading works.
I think the ATK people have done a fine job but they need to redo
certain parts of mail reading if they want people to really appreciate
the value of ATK.

Simple things:

Get EZmail onto the Andrew disk in place of vui.
Advertise cui as a testing program not a user program.
RIP OUT the message server, throw it away, and replace 1 meg of
impossible code with 100K of simple code that uses pop and/or nntp and
a unix filesystem.
Build simple easy tools to enable the messages folder format
to interoperate with mh format and emacs RMAIL format.

So far I've seen 4 scripts come across this mailing list, none of which
really solves the problem of INTEROPERABILITY.  Interoperability means
that I can use mh, emacs RMAIL and messages any time I want and be able
to, by issuing a single command, incorporate archives in any one of the
three formats into any of the others.  There is some support for this,
but it doesn't really work and it's not the sort of thing I would give a
non-wizard.

Please forgive the harshness, but it felt real good to say it "loud and
dirty so you don't forget it", for a change.

Thanks for listening.

-wdc
From: rdew@ALW.NIH.GOV (Bob Dew)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: "slow networks"
Date: 28 Aug 92 05:41:30 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet


AFS may not be for everybody.  We use it for reasons of security,
scalability, and ease of administration.  Likewise, we find AMDS secure,
scalable, and easy to administer and use under AFS. Unfortunately,
messages, cui and vui are the only user agents capable of handling AFS
home-area mail delivery. To remove the message server code from ATK
would mean, for us, the end of distributed mail service under AFS, and a
return to a client-server model that we think is inherently prone to
central points of failure, that is susceptible to unauthorized access
and to catastrophic data loss, and that doesn't scale well.  

But regardless of what mail transfer agent a site elects to use (clearly
there are advantages and disadvantages to both), what merits would be
gained in the messages and vui programs by dropping ATK's message server
support?  As things are, if ATK is compiled without the options for AFS
and AMDS, are the resulting programs much larger and more complicated
than if the message server code didn't exist at all?

-Bob
From: rr2b+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Robert Andrew Ryan)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: Hasn't the message line bogosity gone on long enough?
Date: 26 Aug 92 04:45:10 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Hasn't the message
line bog.. Bill Cattey@ATHENA.MIT.E (436)

> Who else here is tired of having the contents of the message line
> dissappear when their pathname happens to be one character too long?

Probably everyone...

Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Hasn't the message
line bog.. Bill Cattey@ATHENA.MIT.E (436)

> Isn't there some sensible way this can be fixed?

Almost certainly.

Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Hasn't the message
line bog.. Bill Cattey@ATHENA.MIT.E (436)

> making the message line fixed with fonts, un justified?

Using non-justified text is a step in the right direction, but is not
sufficient.  I don't see the relevance of fixed vs variable width fonts.

Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Hasn't the message
line bog.. Bill Cattey@ATHENA.MIT.E (436)

> making the message line two lines tall so that people will get the idea
> they really can scroll around in it?

Certainly users should be able to have as many message line lines as
they wish.  Perhaps the default should be one line with a special
scrolling icon to the left.  Also some indication should be present if
the latest message cannot be displayed in the available space.  The
message line area should be dynamically resizable in increments of 1
line.  It should also be possible to limit the number of previous
messages kept, and/or total size of messages kept in the history.

Even if multi-line message lines become standard, programmers should
strive to insure that most messages are only one line long.  If the
message line has to have more than one line all the time it would
represent quite a bit of wasted real estate.

While we're at it how about history based completion for answers?
(Keeping possible answer type completion as well of course.)

-Rob Ryan
Andrew Consortium
From: rskm+@rchland.ibm.com (Robert Kemmetmueller)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: bug: sendmessage's styles
Date: 2 Sep 92 23:17:50 GMT
Reply-To: "Robert Kemmetmueller" <rskm@rchland.vnet.ibm.com>
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

-- Bug in sendmessage -- (applies to messages-send window as well)

Sendmessage makes a feeble attempt to override the **global** style
withsomething it derives from a preference.

This is what you see:
    You're writing a new message, you decide to "Insert File"
    anordinary .d file.
    >Boing!<  The font used for the entire message changes!
-- Techie Notes --

This is what's happening internally (I think):
    The newly created message uses messages.tpl, whichdefines a
    **global** style.
    Sendmessage ignores that style and uses your preference instead.
    When the user inserts a .d file, default.tpl comes withit.
    Since there's a new template, the old styles from
    messages.tplhave to be made part of the document itself.
    The **global** style is among them!!!
    That **global** style is no longer ignored, either.  It has
    aninstant, visible effect on the entire message!  (sendmessage's
    feeblestyle override got lost in the shuffle)

-- Techie Techie Notes --
(In case you had any doubts about the incorrectness ofsendmessage's
    behavior: ez does it the "right" way; the **global**style can
    override all or part of the bodyfont preference.  Sendmessage
    iscompletely backwards in this respect)
(No, removing the **global** style definition from messages.tpl
    doesNOT help.  It should be done anyway, but that doesn't cure
    theproblem.)
(Nit: the numbers in the \begindata and \enddata of
    messages.tpldon't match)
(Interesting Side Note: After the **global** style is "magically
    changed", youcan just "Save Draft" and then "Restore Draft".  The
    reloading process givessendmessage its chance to override the
    **global style** again with its feeblepreference-derived style, thus
    restoring the message's original appearance.)
(It might just be something simple, like sendmessage missing some
    neededinteraction with the stylesheet or something-- I don't know
    enough tofix it, though, so don't trust MY analysis! :-)

                          Robert Kemmetmueller
                              rskm@rchland
                                 3-4968
From: Craig_Everhart@TRANSARC.COM
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: Hasn't the message line bogosity gone on long enough?
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:37:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: transarc.YebZN3L0BwwtEe=GIA
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

Excerpts from internet.other.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: Hasn't the
message line.. Zalman Stern@decwrl.dec. (3690)

> [Aside: I don't recall the timestamped message line log that Adam described.  
> I'm pretty certain it wasn't in any implementation of framemessage while I  
> was at the ITC. So its either relatively recent or perhaps from bx or BE I?]


I don't think that what Adam remembers was a timestamped message line
log.  The messages that Messages would put into its log contained
timestamps, but the timestamps weren't an inherent property of the
message line micro-window.  (No, I don't know the totally-correct term
here.)

It may indeed have been in the BX version of Messages.

		Regards,
		Craig
Xref: sparky comp.soft-sys.andrew:1215 comp.sys.mac.system:11564
From: ck31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Christopher Bruce Kidwell)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Any Mac archives on AFS?
Date: 2 Sep 92 18:29:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: unix6.715487358.6626.0
Organization: Senior, Chemistry, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

>Does anyone know of any Macintosh archives (like sumex, rascal, umich)
>that are AFS mounted or even a mirror (like wuarchive)?

The umich archives can be found in

/afs/umich.edu/group/itd/archive/mac

I haven't seen any others yet...

Chris Kidwell
ck31@andrew.cmu.edu
From: gk5g+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Gary Keim)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: "slow networks"
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:51:14 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet


Excerpts from netnews.comp.soft-sys.andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: Hasn't the
message line.. Zalman Stern@adobe.com (3690)

> Designing a graphical user interface on the basis of "slow networks" is  
> pretty stupid. But pointing that out to the UNIX community is wholely  
> unproductive.

Oh, come on Zalman.  Are you saying that you don't run Andrew apps to
display on your RT at home over MCN & annex terminal servers via SLIP at
19200 bps?  I'm worried about these issues.  The X Consortium is worried
too.

--Gary
From: tinglett+@rchland.ibm.com (Todd Inglett)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: fonts when server differs
Date: 3 Sep 92 20:13:04 GMT
Reply-To: "Todd Inglett" <tinglett@rchland.vnet.ibm.com>
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet


Excerpts from ext.misc.info-andrew: 3-Sep-92 Re: fonts whenserver
differs Fred Hansen@RCHGATE.rchl (614+0)

> I should have pointed out that I was not refering so much tosending
> entire fonts for Andrew applications as to sending the few
> specialsymbols that some applications want.  For instance the standard
> arrow cursorand scrollbar symbols. In many cases these are used as
> cursors, so it isreasonable to have them in pixmaps anyway.

I agree.  I would like to have a way to draw a pixmap and create cursors
froma pixmap.  It seems a bit silly to create a font with a single glyph
just so Ican have a custom cursor or an icon in a button.  Preferably,
ATK would offermethods to convert X11 bitmaps and XPM pixmaps (which
just happen to be validC code) into a pixmap.  Here is an example of a
full color XPM pixmap:

    /* XPM2 C */
    static char ** foo.px  = {
    "19 18 4 1",
    "   m white  c #FF00FF00FF00",
    ".  m black  c dark green",
    "X  m black  c MidnightBlue",
    "o  m black  c #F600DF00B400",
    "       .......     ",
    "      .........    ",
    "  XXX.... .. ..XXX ",
    " Xooo...........ooX",
    " Xooo...........ooX",
    " Xooo...........ooX",
    "  XXX... ... ..XXX ",
    "      ...   ...    ",
    "       .......     ",
    "        .....      ",
    "    o    o         ",
    "     oo  o         ",
    "       oooooooo    ",
    "         o         ",
    "         o         ",
    "         o         ",
    "       oooo        ",
    "     oo    oo      "};

Don't ask me what it is.  I just doodled it up (with a pixmap editor)
for thisexample.  The first line says it is a 19x18 image with four
colors and eachcolor is represented by a single character.  The neat
thing about this formatis that it specifies what to do on both a
monochrome and color screen.

-todd inglett
From: rskm+@rchland.ibm.com (Robert Kemmetmueller)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.andrew
Subject: Re: message line bogosity
Date: 26 Aug 92 19:05:33 GMT
Reply-To: "Robert Kemmetmueller" <rskm@rchland.vnet.ibm.com>
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

Excerpts from ext.misc.info-andrew: 26-Aug-92 Re: Hasn't themessage
line.. Robert Andrew Ryan@RCHGA (1674+0)

> ...one of the wins of ATK and Emacs (gnu and gosling) overMacintosh
> Toolbox and Motif is the fact that they have a message line. In the Mac
> and Motif model, you have to pop up a dialog box for any
> transientmessage,  obscuring part of a window most probably.  When a
> message is purelyinformational this is a waste.

Hear, hear!
Anyway, this is a little off-the-wall, but how about dynamicallychanging
the font size?
When something in the message line gets too long, the text can getshrunk
so it still fits.
If there's a whole mess of text, it can get scrunched downinto a
teeny-tiny font so it will all still fit.

            --Rob "the one-man Peanut Gallery" Kemmetmueller