HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mirza@vxcrna.cern.ch (MIRZA,I./EP)
Subject: Re: Learning Urdu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 16:38:00 GMT

In article <111129@muvms3.bitnet>, rcbi110@muvms3.bitnet (R. ALAN MONROE) writes...
> 
>Salam Alaikum.
> 
>I am very interested in learning to speak and write Urdu.  I have been teaching
>myself the language by listening to music (Benjamin Sisters, Vital Signs) and
>writing what I hear.  What I need is a learning aid, such as a tape/book 
>package.  Where could I find or order something like this?  None of the book
>stores in my area offered hope.
> 
>Chris Brannon
> 
>rcbi110@muvms3.mu.wvnet.edu
> 
>So much style without substance, so much stuff without style.  It's hard to
>recognize the real thing, it comes along once in a while.  Like a rare and
>precious metal beneath a ton of rock, it takes some time and trouble to 
>seperate from the stock.  -- Grand Designs --

	Why the hell you have to learn urdu?
        Why dont you learn Punjabi?.

Mirza Ilyas
From: ruthless@panix.com (Ruth Ditucci)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Pakistani marriage arguments and discussions...
Keywords: killing wife, divorce, backward tribal laws
Date: 25 Jul 92 16:15:57 GMT
Organization: Panix, NYC

It seems to me that arguing about what is and isn't right in a marriage
between a man and woman who live in a country which allows men to
murder their wives when they're done with them is a rather-

	moot point.

Allow Pakistan to work on the simpler things such as their water
system and their thousand diseases which are running rampant.  They
are far from ready to work on things- social.  

.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik)
Subject: Re: Islamic World News and False Claims.
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:03:10 GMT

jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes:
: It might not be very relevant to what we have here. There is an interesting
: thing I observed when I went to take SAT at the American School, Karachi. A
: couple of guys whom I knew from Habib Public School were there too. At least
: about one of them I am 100% sure that he was settled in Karachi because he
: was my class-fellow for three years... for the next three years we were at
: different schools. I also believe that he was in Habib Public School since
: much before. 
: 
: On the day of the test, I was really surprised to see that both these guys
: showed Indian passports as identification documents. So did at least a few
: other students... Is it possible to have both Pakistani and Indian 
: nationality at the same time?
: 
: Meanwhile, a family I know in Halifax, with relatives both in India and
: Pakistan, applied for visas for the two countries. They have apparently 
: Canadian, British, and Pakistani citizenships. They had considerable 
: trouble getting visa for India, even though they had applied on the basis
: of their Canadian citizenship. From what I have been explained, it appears
: that even if you were _once_ a Pakistani citizen, your application has to
: go through the same process as for Pakistanis. Let me mention that some
: members of the family were born either in UK or in Canada, and have lived
: here since. Even their files were apparently sent to Delhi.
: 
: Nadeem
: 
: -- 
: Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
: 						 
: School of Computer Science			  
: Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7882  

I do not know whether it is possible to hold dual Indian and Pakistani
citizenship, but it is certainly possible to hold dual British-Pakistani
citizenship ... I am dual myself. 


Actually, now that I think about it, I remember an Indian friend of mine in
England telling me that India does not allow dual citizenship. Is this
correct?

Nadeem Malik
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq)
Subject: RE: NATIONAL LANGUAGE
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:54:06 GMT

----------------------------------------
Article 25982 in soc.culture.pakistan:
From: qs@haithem.cray.com (Qasim M. Sheikh)
Subject: Re: Muhajirs in Sindh
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 22 Jul 92 08:00:12 CDT

[...deleted...]

I agree with Nadeem whole heartedly.  It is still not too late. Considering
the fact that close to 70+% of Pakistanis do not know how to read and write
and their knowledge of Urdu is at a very minimal level.  If Arabic, Urdu and
a regional language is spoken at home, future generations will learn all 3 very
quickly.  Kids are the best language learners.
----------------------------------------

Although theoretically this is an excellent idea, I don't see how well people
are going to mentally adapt to such a change.  The history of the cultures in
Pakistan is proof of how many different races, languages, and religions have
made their pass through the region.  I think Arabic should be taught as a
second language, along with the local and Urdu, but not being a native
language, the issue of making Arabic official will only drive a bigger and 
deeper wedge between religious and non-religious political groups.
And to top that off, do you really want to force a language on millions 
or have them accept it by their own accord?  Egypt, Syria, Sudan,
etc did not suddenly start speaking Arabic after the Arab conquests, the
local people were left alone and it was the grassroots community minded work
done by the Prophets followers(leading to conversions) that without force,
made Arabic the lingua franca of the time.  Similarly, we cannot approach 
the language problem in a political sense: teaching it is no problem, but
making it an official language does a great deal of damage through its symbolic
ramifications.

Omar
omar.farooq@att.com
From: sankar@hal.COM (Sankar Bandy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: ISLAMIC WORLD NEWS (21st)
Date: 22 Jul 1992 11:26:47 -0700
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: quality.hal.com

In article <1992Jul22.150454.8528@cbfsb.cb.att.com> onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq) writes:
>There seem to some arguments on the Babri Masjid issue.
>And comments are being passed back and forth.  
>Some observations and points: 
>Allah and Ram maybe equally mythical, but there is no human shape 
>assigned to Allah and no birthplace associated with him/her.
>
>Anyway, the point is that throughout history, every ruling group has 
>taken over or destroyed temples and churches of the ruled people.  
>This does not mean that you can go back in time and undo it.  The 
>Mughals I'm sure took over many temples(although the Babri Masjid's 
>past is still debatable->whether it was built over a previous temple), 
>just as the Turks converted Aya Sophia to a Mosque in Istanbul, and 
>just as the Spanish converted many mosques and synagogues to churches 
>after the Re-Conquest of Spain.
>
>So regardless of whether archaeologists find evidence supporting or
>nullifying the Hindu fundamentalist' claim, the Mosque is still there.
>Just as many previous mosques in Punjab are now Gurdwaras and Mandirs.
>What do you think? Is it better to save your breath and let the past
>go away or sit here and bicker over this?
>
>Omar 
>omar.farooq@att.com

It is not true that religious structures once converted has not been 
reconverted. As far as I know , when the Turks conquered Spain they
destroyed all the beautiful churches and built Mosques on most of
them. However, when Spain came back to Christian power all of these
erstwhile churches were restored.


Very recently, a group of historians have shown conclusive archeological
evidence that the Babri Masjid indeed was built on an erstwhile temple.

It is only in India because of the Nehruvian idea of pseudo-secularism,
that there is so much noise about these issues. BTW, can you show a
single proof of mosques in East Punjab having been converted to 
temples or gurudwaras ?

Let me tell you this, it is much much more difficult in modern 
India to destroy or even lay hands on a minority religious place,
than it is in a Theocratic country like Pakistan. Illegal temples
on roadside are easily demolished by local police in India (at
least the part that I belong to ) but not an illegal Mosque etc.


Sankar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik)
Subject: Re: Urban Sindh / CSS
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 12:14:28 GMT

samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar) writes:
: khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
: 
: >of equal opportunity. This will mean people from Karachi
: ..
: > will be able
: >to compete on all the seats( not 2% khairaati seats) for Government,
: >education institutions, S&T scholarships, Bank loans for business,
: >and military.
: 
: Hey, come back to India. You can compete on more than 2%, kind of like
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: 60% of open seats for most places.

Only as a tourist.

: 
: >	When Pakistan was founded in 1947, two thirds of the Muslim ICS offficers who opted for pakistan were from those areas which never became part of 
: >Pakistan. Rest were from Panjab. There were no Bengalis and there were no
: 
: Hey, come back to India. With muhajirs gone, the muslim share in those
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: areas has fallen. We need you to shore up the balance.

Only as a tourist.

: 
: >	The story is too long. Any person who knows the history of PAkistan
: >will remember the systematic elimination of muhajirs in Pakistan.
: 
: Hey, come back to India. Miandad can become captain of Indian cricket team,
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: and India can again win the hockey gold in Olympics :-) BJP leader Advani
: can return to Karachi, and the Babri masjid will not be in danger.

No thanks, only as a tourist.

: 
: Sumitro
: 

-Nadeem Malik
From: ruthless@panix.com (Ruth Ditucci)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: reply to Iraz first- Pakistan next...
Keywords: pakistan, iran, arrid land, land for hire
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:04:19 GMT
Organization: Panix, NYC

In response to:

	Iran first, Pakistan next?

		One could only hope!
From: B.Kumar@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: ISLAMIC WORLD NEWS (21st)
Date: 25 Jul 92 19:30:39 GMT

In article In-reply-to: Your message of "24 Jul 92 13:34:35 GMT."
             <1992Jul24.133435.1208@cbfsb.cb.att.com> 
>-----------------------------------
>-----------------------------------
>For those curious enough to find out how "stringent" visa 
>restrictions are between India and Pakistan, go to any Indian Consulate
>or Embassy in Wash., D.C.  Take 4 passport size photos, your passport
>and greencard(where applicable), $2.00 and you should get a tourist
>visa the same day.
>
>Any comments, questions, concerns, call the Indian Consulate in New York
>212-879-7800

Oh really :-), Looks fantastic offer to me.

Can you please get a VISA for a friend of mine his name is
Raza Bhatti - a Botany Lecturer from Karanchi University.
He is currently doing Ph.D in London and not able to get
VISA for last three months inspite of the fact that he has
funding and recommendation from UK govt and London university
as well as invitation letters from three university in India 
to allow him to visit some zological gardens in Kerala to collect 
few plants. My sources do not work here.

May be your source might help him. Tell them that he has a
pakistani passport, and you will see the game :-).

If you wish to talk to Raza Bhatti, I will give you his phone in London.

Cheers,

bkumar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: usman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Usman Hameed)
Subject: Re: back from pakistan
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 18:25:35 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.193645.23583@ucunix.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas) writes:

>karachi is where my relatives live and i enjoyed going there, but it is a city
>shot to hell. crime is rampant, there is a water shortage problem, there is a 
>problem with the MQM. A lot of dust, the frustration level of the people there
>is very high. 


It's a little more than that.  For some of us it is home.


>If I ever go back to Pakistan, I'd rather live in Islamabad.


C'mon Zafar, haven't you ever wanted to live "Raiders of the Lost Ark."
Give Karachi a shot.  Its LA with Sindhi and Muhajir bachchis thrown
in for good measure.  And what's more its the only major city where
you can enjoy a crimson beach sunset with a woman (as intimated in 
your post).

Usman
From: waseems@sco.COM (Waseem Siddiqi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Ethical dilemma
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:58:54 GMT
Organization: SCO Canada, Inc.

I have just received a letter from someone who is clearly a racist.
I am thinking of posting it on SCP as I am surprised that Pakistanis like
that exist. I know I shouldn't be, but nevertheless I am. Would be 
right to post his email on SCP and get some kind of discussion ?

waseem
-- 
Waseem A. Siddiqi                                 Tel:    (416) 922 1937 
SCO Canada                                        email: waseems@sco.com 
Toronto, Canada                                        uunet!sco!waseems
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: usman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Usman Hameed)
Subject: Re: Urdu/Punjabi word
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 20:43:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.184246.17531@cbfsb.cb.att.com> onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq) writes:

>what is the translation for "Good-bye" in Urdu and/or Punjabi.
>TIA.
>
>brockus@usc.edu
>--------------------------
>
>Unless you consult an extensive English-Urdu lughat, I can onyl think of
>KhudaHafiz, or perhaps Ruqsat-ul-khair (more like Arabic style phrasing)
>		    or Ruqsat-e-khair (Persian phrasing).


If you place more faith on the fancy inscriptions on trucks in
Pakistan, then a popular one is "khair naal ja, tey khair naal aa."

Usman





Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Subject: Re: Quwattay bazooay Muslim nay kiya kaam Tera.. 
Keywords: Pakistan,capital
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 03:08:20 GMT

In article <dogar.712251519@opal4> dogar@rtsg.mot.com (Haroon H. Dogar) writes:
>
>Jawaab: Bhudsanam khaano main khushee kai Musalman gai
>
>
>First,
>
>jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes:
>
>>You have every right to ask the people any stupid question... try asking that
>>question to someone from a country with a better literacy rate... he'll laugh
>>at you... It's a shame that we take our people's naivete for granted.
>
>And then later,
>
>>Pakistan yet has to fulfil its goals... true... but those goals are not
>>what you want them to be... not even what I want them to be. The goals
>>are what the people of states that joined Pakistan voted for. And that
>>was a confederation of the Muslim-majority states.
>
>Ahem, well Nadeem, which is it? Are the people too illiterate
>to be trusted, or do they have a right to the type of Pakistan
>that they fought and died for?
>

Please read the above two paragraphs(?) again... may be it helps :)

.... (stuff deleted)

>the people. I am going to repost an article from Iftikharuz Zaman
>[yes, again] that makes an interesting point about colonialism.
>I'll title it "Iftikharuz Zaman on colonialism." Please read it and
>let me know what you think. [Are you as native as you think, or are
>you as much a walaiti andha as me? :-) ]

You normally wouldn't expect someone as native as I am to be here :)

.... (stuff deleted)

>
>-hd
>pehra da vehri a mein - changay da yaaran
>wadday bazoorgan lay mein - puhlan da haaran
>jehra vi hans kay bohlay mein tabaydaaran
>sajna da minnoo yaarau jee jee lihaazay 
>rehnda harr waylay sirr tay suraj da taajay ....
>[Apologies in advance for any grammatical or
> transliteration errors.  :-)]

jeet jeet kai umr guzaree
huRN too(n) haar faqeera
jetay da mulh hik adh koDee
tay haray da mulh heera
heeray dee keemat lakh kiroRaan tay koDee adh kaseera(n)
jai too(n) bulya haaraN naa sikhya
tay bai murshid bai peera

Nadeem

-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7882
From: ahasan@cae.wisc.edu (Ali Hasan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: fatwa for today
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:49:38 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering

In article <1992Jul22.200934.19981@newton.ccs.tuns.ca> jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.104031.15608@doug.cae.wisc.edu> ahasan@cae.wisc.edu (Ali Hasan) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul21.062422.18946@leland.Stanford.EDU> arkay@leland.Stanford.EDU (Abdur Khan) writes:
>>>
>>>	after the tensions in peshawar.
>>>	all religious tension between shia's and sunni's must cease.
>>>	therefore i ask my followers and brothers and bhabi's
>>>
>>>		all sunni men should marry shia women
>>>		and all shia women should marry sunni men.
>>>								17:6:92
>>>
>>>sahibzada rafay khan[the world for a .........]
>>
>>	Hey!! You left out shia men :-(
>>	Does that mean we don't get married ?
>>	Or are we allowed to run after blondes now ?
>>
>>					--ali ;-)
>
>	What about sunny women... ;-) 
>
>Nadeem
>
	Are you one ;-) ?
	If you are then I am at your service. Being blonde would 
	be an added advantage ;-)

					--ali [always helpful]
-- 
**********************************************************************
* Ali Hasan			Computer Aided Engineering	     *
* ahasan@cae.wisc.edu		UW-Madison.			     *
**********************************************************************
From: waseemak@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Waseem M. A. Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Hockey News Anybody?
Keywords: Olympic Event
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:38:00 GMT
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana

Would any kind soul please post the news of Hockey matches in Barcelona.
Who is Pakistan playing with in their pool? And if anybody knows, would
you please post the other qualifying countries? Has India made it to the
 Olyimpics this time? I think they have, anybody? 

Thanx in advance
Ciao,
Waseem m. Khan

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: usman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Usman Hameed)
Subject: Re: Regarding RAW-Mossad Nexus to Fight Terrorism
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 00:16:32 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.173358.603@ucunix.san.uc.edu> bhatnagr@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Raj Bhatnagar) writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.220925.7256@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
>usman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Usman Hameed) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul23.193950.11543@news.uiowa.edu> 
>abdutta@icaen.uiowa.edu (Abhijit Dutta) writes:
>>>|* RAW-Mossad Nexus Fights Terrorism  
>>>|
>>>|U.S intelligence officer confirms their training in Israel
>>>|A crack battalion of Indian intelligence agents back from training in
>>>|Israel, a new found ally of India, is all set set to launch a major
>>>|counter-terrorism offensive against separatist forces in Kashmir,
>>
>>Only time will tell if suppression, or should I say counter-terrorism,
>>is the solution to problems in Kashmir, Assam and E. Punjab.  Some
>>quarters naively feel a political resolution is necessary :-)   
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>Hum kiya jaaneiN.
>>
>>Usman
>>
>
>Political resolutions are never achieved by resorting to terrorism.
>The gun-culture, currently pervading Kashmir, must stop before
>political processes can start. If the gun-culture is not given up 
>by the terrorists, then it will have to be forcefully suppressed
>before civilized modes, such as talks/elections etc., can be held.
>
>---raj
>


Let's not confuse cause and effect here Raj.  This movement
hasn't just started overnight.  The "political processes"
obviously didn't hold too much credibility for the people.
If the "gun-culture" forces the central govt. to the negotiating
table, then militancy will be perceived as an efficacious way of 
getting heard in Safdarjang.

Usman
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Pakistani marriage arguments and discussions...
From: jawad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Jawad Ali)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 18:21:46 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
Keywords: killing wife, divorce, backward tribal laws

In article <1992Jul25.161557.7905@panix.com> ruthless@panix.com (Ruth Ditucci) writes:
>It seems to me that arguing about what is and isn't right in a marriage
>between a man and woman who live in a country which allows men to
>murder their wives when they're done with them is a rather-
>
>	moot point.

Discussing ethics and culture with someone who is so supremely ignorant
and in possesion of such red-neck views, is moot.

>
>Allow Pakistan to work on the simpler things such as their water
>system and their thousand diseases which are running rampant.  They
>are far from ready to work on things- social.  

The Nazis themselves couldn't have put it better.  

j n a
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:12651 soc.culture.indian:25706
From: arkay@leland.Stanford.EDU (Abdur Khan)
Subject: Re: NATIONAL LANGUAGE
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 22:19:55 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.135406.4830@cbfsb.cb.att.com> onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq) writes:
>----------------------------------------
>Article 25982 in soc.culture.pakistan:
>From: qs@haithem.cray.com (Qasim M. Sheikh)
>Subject: Re: Muhajirs in Sindh
>Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
>Date: 22 Jul 92 08:00:12 CDT
>Lines: 39
>
>[...deleted...]
>
>I agree with Nadeem whole heartedly.  It is still not too late. Considering
>the fact that close to 70+% of Pakistanis do not know how to read and write
>and their knowledge of Urdu is at a very minimal level.  If Arabic, Urdu and
>a regional language is spoken at home, future generations will learn all 3 very
>quickly.  Kids are the best language learners.
>----------------------------------------
>
>Although theoretically this is an excellent idea, I don't see how well people
>are going to mentally adapt to such a change.  The history of the cultures in
>Pakistan is proof of how many different races, languages, and religions have
>made their pass through the region.  I think Arabic should be taught as a
>second language, along with the local and Urdu, but not being a native


why arabic, just because we are muslims, what utter rot. Lets just have punjabi
as the national language as a large number of pakistani's speak it already.
Arabic, if we learn arabic we might turn out to be like arabs, god forbid.

sahibzada rafay khan[]