HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Marriage and well-being
Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 17:20:28 GMT


In article <8206@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.EDU (Eric Pepke) writes:
>In article <MUFFY.92Apr9115714@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>Well, it would help if the prejudice you picked was *relevant*.  He said
>>"single" men and women, not "divorced" men and women.

>I haven't seen the quoted study, so I can't know if divorced people
>were specifically disallowed.

It doesn't matter whether divorced people are included or not.  The
point is that "single people" is NOT THE SAME as "divorced people."
Therefore, whether "divorce is a better deal for women" (hah!) or not is
not relevant to many of the people studied in the survey.

>[Women are "brought up" to believe getting married is desirable.]
>And just who, exactly, does this bringing up?  It must be the father,
>who is home 24 hours a day while the mother is off working in the coal
>mine, right?

Society, actually.  My grandfather worked in a coal mine, of course.  He
was killed in a accident when my father was 6 years old.  My grandmother
had a sewing business.  After her husband died, she put their 9 children
through school and college with this business.  What's your point? 

>I have gotten pressure from my mother about getting married.

Maybe that's just *your* mother.  My mother doesn't *want* us (my
brother and me) to get married and my SO's mother doesn't care.  My SO
is a lot more enthusiastic about marriage than I am.  I can counter each
example of yours with one from my life/friends, but what does either one
prove?  Do you think that everyone is like you and your friends?
Fortunately, there is rather more diversity in the world than that.

I'll tell you where your misunderstanding is coming in.  There was this
*ONE* survey, done in the last few years, which discovered that marriage
was a good deal for men.  That's one side of it.  The other side is the
last few hundred years (at least) of women being told by society that
marriage was not only desirable but pretty much necessary for them.
I'll bet your mother, your girlfriend, and your girlfriend's mother
haven't even *read* this survey.  If they have, even if they believed
it, that would not immediately change the thinking of a lifetime.
--

Muffy Barkocy                             muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn

---
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
From: tgray@igc.org (Tom Gray)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: RE: ENTERPRISE HELP FOR WOMEN
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:17:11 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

/* Written  5:00 pm  Apr  1, 1992 by VITA@GMUVAX.BITNET in cdp:bitl.devel-l */
/* ---------- "RE: ENTERPRISE HELP FOR WOMEN" ---------- */
Reply-To: Volunteers in Technical Assistance <VITA@GMUVAX.BITNET>
From: Volunteers in Technical Assistance <VITA@GMUVAX.BITNET>

Here is TechnoServe's address:
TechnoServe
49 Day Street
Norwalk, Connecticut 06854
tel +1 203 852-0377
800 99-WORKS
fax +1 203 838-6717
Telex 965-981

-Rafe-

R.R. Ronkin, VITA Volunteer
Volunteers in Technical Assistance
<vita@gmuvax> or <vita@gmuvax.gmu.edu>




-- 
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
From: phardie%nastar.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu (Pete Hardie)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Gender and Gender Roles (was Re: Perpetuating Stereotypes)
Date: 10 Apr 92 02:19:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.s2tv7INN71n
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <9204032110.AA08709@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov>,
celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.GOV writes:
>What "man" can know the difficulties in makup or the frustration of
>putting on pantyhose unless he has done it? (Putting your hand
>throught $4 hose that you just bought!) What "man" can understand the
>problems of walking in heels (soft ground, gratings, uneven footing,
>pain) unless he has done it. What "man" can understand the knife of
>fear when confronted with screaming red necks saying "We are going to
>FUCK YOU!"  and know he can't get run away or fight because because of
>limitations of heels, hose and dress. (Remember a rapist has the
>mental advantage that he KNOWS he can subdue you! That is major
>advantage in any battle!)

This is true, but trivially so.  No "woman" can know the fear of being
forced to participate in rough physical sport like football against her will
by insensitive parents, either.  Men are attacked, usually with the much
greater threat of being killed, and no doubt feel fear.

(sidetrack - unless there is a great difference in strength,
the average woman can indeed incapacitate the average rapist.  The real danger
is in the attempt that fails)

>No wonder women say "YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND" when they talk to men.
>Unless you look, walk, talk and live like a woman you just don't
>understand what a woman has to put up with.

And the same goes for the converse.  Men are saddled with a lot of stress
baggage w/r/t emotional alienation with themselves and their families.  Few
women have trouble expressing themselves, or letting their emotions show.

Saying that we "just don't understand" does not further anyone's cause.

-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |


-- 
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
From: rivero@mdcbbs.com
Subject: Re: Marriage and well-being
Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
Organization: M&E (Division of EDS), Cypress CA
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 16:18:38 GMT


In article <s50miINNesk@agate.berkeley.edu>, tweaver@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Tim Weaver) writes:
>> Or else divorce is a better deal for women than for men.  Pick yer
>> prejudice.
>
> Not if the assets are in his name.  This is one of the reasons we have
> mothers on welfare.  It's also the reason for alimony.  If the guy
> divorces the woman and takes all his marbles, she's stuck unless she has
> a job.  Housewives get the real shaft here.

  That depends on where you live. Here in California, it's a community property
and community debt state. For marriages longer than 5 years, it doesn't
matter whoes name the assets or debts are in, it's split right down
thr middle, except in cases where the judge awards one party
of the other additional damages or spousal support (as in the case
of one spouse working to put the other through college). In the latter case,
assets which pre-date the marriage may become involved (with the lawyers taking
a huge chunk for their efforts).

  Under this system, it has become almost standard practice for a woman's
divorce lawyer to file all kinds of false abuse charges against the husband
in order to secure additional financial awards, and the fact is that,
at least in this state, it's the husband who gets the shaft.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
|  Michael Rivero rivero@mdcbbs.com Homo Cyberneticus-Computational Man  |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|    Anyone who manages to get from birth to death without getting at    |
|   least one ugly scar just wasn't DOING anything!                      |
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

---
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
From: albert@cs.wisc.edu (Joseph Albert)
Subject: Re: Marriage and well-being
Status: R
Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 00:11:39 GMT


In article <rvb0kINNkp6@agate.berkeley.edu> jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>[for soc.feminism]
>
>In article <rtq7oINNgul@agate.berkeley.edu> Joseph Albert writes:
>>Actually, there is research which has documented that married men `fare'
>>better than single men, as measured by life expectancy, prevalence of
>>medical and psychological disorders, and measures of life satisfaction, 
>>while single women (who are not mothers) `fare' better than married women
>>according to the same metrics. 
>>
>>I guess marriage is a better deal for men than for women.
>
>     Or else the men who are more healthy and emotionally secure
>in the first place are more likely to get married; and
>conversely, the women who are less healthy and emotionally
>secure are more likely to get married.
>
>     Put this way, it says more about our perceptions of fitness
>for marriage, and our reasons for getting married, than about
>any benefit that people get out of marriage.

There have been some studies done over time spans that control for
the variance of measures of life satisfaction before marriage, so
as only to look at the change after marriage. The results have been
that in marriages between two partners with comparable levels of health and
emotional security before the marriage, the men fare better than the women.

Joseph Albert
albert@cs.wisc.edu

---
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
From: rberlin@birdland.Eng.Sun.COM (Rich Berlin)
Subject: Re: Gender and Gender Roles (was Re: Perpetuating Stereotypes)
Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
Organization: SunPics -- A Sun Microsystems Business
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 11:15:49 GMT



In article <9204032110.AA08709@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov> celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.GOV (celeste) writes:
...
>What "man" can know the difficulties in makup or the frustration of
>putting on pantyhose unless he has done it? (Putting your hand
>throught $4 hose that you just bought!) What "man" can understand the
>problems of walking in heels (soft ground, gratings, uneven footing,
>pain) unless he has done it. What "man" can understand the knife of
>fear when confronted with screaming red necks saying "We are going to
>FUCK YOU!"  and know he can't get run away or fight because because of
>limitations of heels, hose and dress. (Remember a rapist has the
>mental advantage that he KNOWS he can subdue you! That is major
>advantage in any battle!)
>
>No wonder women say "YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND" when they talk to men.
>Unless you look, walk, talk and live like a woman you just don't
>understand what a woman has to put up with.

I am with you, I think.  And I see the truth here, but I have trouble
accepting at all levels the idea that wearing makeup, pantyhose and
high heels are things that women *have* to put up with.  And again,
though I believe I understand and see the truth in the statement, it
particularly bothers me that you have a sense of vulnerability to rape
that is somehow part of this dress code.

-- Rich
--


---
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
From: pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.EDU (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Re: Marriage and well-being
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: Eric Pepke <pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.EDU>
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:23:47 GMT

In article <MUFFY.92Apr9115714@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>Well, it would help if the prejudice you picked was *relevant*.  He said
>"single" men and women, not "divorced" men and women.

I haven't seen the quoted study, so I can't know if divorced people
were specifically disallowed.  However, I don't really think that
common usage of "single" disallows divorced people.  Because of the
fragility of marriages these days, a fair number of "single" people
are actually divorced, certainly enough to show up on statistics.

I say this as a divorced man who calls himself "single," BTW.

>>Perhaps someday somebody can explain to me why, if it's such a great
>>big solid gold deal for men to get married, in all the long-term
>>couples that I've known, the woman is always more eager to get
>>married than the man.  Perhaps the same person can explain to me why
>>pressure to get married more often comes from the mother than the
>>father.
>
>Sure, glad to.  It's because of those charming "traditional roles"
>we've been discussing.  If a woman is brought up to *believe* that
>the best option for her is marriage, naturally she will be
>enthusiastic about it.

And just who, exactly, does this bringing up?  It must be the father,
who is home 24 hours a day while the mother is off working in the coal
mine, right?

I have gotten pressure from my mother about getting married.  My
girlfriend has gotten pressure from her mother about getting married.
My father never put me under that kind of pressure when he was alive.
Her father does not put her under that kind of pressure.  So, what's
the deal?  My mother is not an idiot, and neither is hers.  If it's
such a BAD deal for women and such a GOOD deal for men, why is this
behavior still there, after 30 or 40 years of marriage?

-EMP

--
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
From: jk13+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joanne M. Karohl)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: "Basic Instinct"
Date: 7 Apr 92 20:56:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.rt29fINNd7j
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

I am curious about the reaction any of you out there in netland has had
to the film "Basic Instinct" with respect to its portrayals of women and
the interactions between its male and female characters.  I found the
movie quite offensive;  my male cohorts found it enjoyable.  Any
comments?

Joanne Karohl



-- 
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
From: DCW112@psuvm.psu.EDU (dave wilson)
Subject: Fem. for Life
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Penn State University
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:06:57 GMT

 I was wondering if any had information about the group called
"Feminists for Life".  I would greatly apprietiate anyone who does
emailing me that information.

[Please post the information to soc.feminism as well.  Thanks.  --CTM]

--
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
From: Tori <VNASMAN@FALCON.AAMRL.WPAFB.AF.MIL>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: stereotypes
Date: 10 Apr 1992 19:33:04 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In response to EMP (?):

NO QUESTION that stereotypes restrict males' emotional development and 
expression.  This makes me feel VERY bad.  It's a real pain, in fact.  Humor 
me, please, as I make the point that I have not even once suggested that women 
have it worse than men.  I believe it, but I haven't said it.  :)  But 
seriously, though, men and women have it worse in different areas.  None of us 
will be any better off until all of us are.  

I think we don't disagree much at all, given what you've said.  I do think 
categorizing is fundamental to cognition and neural processing (hello, we're 
tip-toeing close to my field now).  It's not clear to me how anything I've 
said suggests otherwise.  I THINK I was trying to make that very point.

I agree that stereotyping is an example of statistical ignorance.  And by the 
way, so is voting across a broad set of political issues.  (just thought I'd 
throw that in there, I can't help myself)

I most certainly WOULD like to nip stereotyping in the bud.  I think all 
stereotypers are lazy, greedy, and politically naughty. :)

My only intent was to offer what I believe to be a useful taxonomy for 
discussing various types of stereotypes and their potential effects.  It's a 
distinction made by others in the psych. literature, and I thought I'd present 
it to the group as an aid to discussion.  THAT'S all.  Bye!

Victoria Nasman
VNASMAN@FALCON.AAMRL.WPAFB.AF.MIL





-- 
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
From: uunet!mailrus!gatech!unmvax!fiveup.cs.unm.edu!krishna@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Ksheerabdhi Krishna)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Camille Paglia (Review/Info Request)
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:54:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.sclcrINN5mf
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

The News service)
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of New Mexico
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 17:49:42 GMT

Hello there, 

        I am writing to request some info on Camille Paglia (author
of a book called - Sexual Personae : Art and Decadance from Nefretti 
to Emily Dickinson- I think) I just happened to read an interview by
her in some magazine on a trip. Unfortunately I dont remember the 
reference. 

        If anyone out there has a review or a critique of her work/
general philosophy - I would be much obliged if you could pass it on. 

Cheers,
Ksheerabdhi Krishna                         krishna@unmvax.cs.unm.edu 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Home is where the heart lies, 
but if the heart lies, where is home? - Derek William Dick

-- 
"Deus ex machina"  - Menander, c. 300 B.C.  [A god from the machine]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ksheerabdhi Krishna			       krishna@unmvax.cs.unm.edu 
408 Maple SE, #14				      RES: (505)842-1181


-- 
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
From: matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (matsd@physchem.kth.se (mats dahlgren))
Subject: Book illustrating the sexism of language
Status: R
Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
Reply-To: matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 15:48:33 GMT


A book illustrating the sexism of language not found in the soc.feminism 
Reference list:

Bratenberg, Gerd, _Egalias_dotre_ (in Norwegian Pax forlag/Ascheroug 
forlag).  It is also available in English: _Egalia's_Daughters_, 
published in the U.S. by The Seal Press, Seattle, Wash., and in the 
UK by The Journeyman Press, London.  (Also available in Swedish, 
German, Italian, Danish and Dutch.)
	The book turns the language and social stereotypes upside 
	down.  It is really interesting to see how easily one, as 
	reader, gets used to the "unusual" language.  This also 
	illustrates how powerful the sexism of the language is. -- md


mats dahlgren

********************************************************************************

  mats dahlgren 
  Dept. of Physical Chemistry		Mail:	matsd@physchem.kth.se
  The Royal Institute of Technology	Phone:	+46 8 790 8595
  S-100 44  Stockholm, Sweden           Fax:	+46 8 790 8207

              All opinions expressed above are private opinions.

---
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments may be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.