From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Annoying, cloying "wann-be"s
Summary: Response to a o"fen"ded party.....
Date: 5 Nov 92 02:59:43 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories



	Looks like I stepped on some toes. Sorry for the offense but the 
opinions expressed are hard won. Read on.....

>Ashley,
>   There are always unsocialized jerks in all cultural groups. If this is
>all you see in fandom, either you've seen very little of it, or you're
>hanging around with the wrong sub-groups. This buch will either grow up
>and drift off (self-selection), get better (and some may even get serious),
>or be among the few that stay jerks. 


	I don't recall flaming *all* of sci-fi fandom, there are indeed many 
decent people there, but in the SF bay area they are vastly outnumbered by 
immature and emotionally stunted idiots of all ages and persuasions. My 
experience and opinion, hard learned.

	As to the fools I am currently watching, I expect they will find 
something else to preoccupy their limited minds in time. None of them have 
any idea what the religion is (well, the one or two who asked me to teach them 
might, but they lost intrest when I didn't instantly make them into 
sorcerer/esses). In the mean time, they make us look dumb. Yes, I know the 
TV evangelists give us much worse publicity in an even larger forum, but 
convincing someone that I'm not an agent of Satan is easier than convincing 
them that I'm not a loser/geek who lives in a pubescent sci-fi fandom based 
fantasy world.


>There are plenty of us who aren't that way. As a matter of fact, a lot of the 
>folks who were active in the neopagan revival of the early 70's, and onward,
>were and are fen (as am I). As an example, the big organizational meeting
>of Nemeton, which was a big pan-pagan organization in the mid-70's, was at
>the Worldcon in LA in '72 (yes, I wound up seeing some of it, because I was
>hanging around with a guy I'd gotten friendly with the year before at Worldcon,
>Tim Zell).

	Yes I am aware of the good side of sci-fi/fantasy, it does stimulate 
growth in the mythos and in fact can invent new usefull ones too. I don't deny 
that and I DO appreciate the creative thinkers and the mature and 
individualistic people who are involved in the scene. The good in this does 
indeed outweigh the bad. You mentioned someone just now who is responsible for 
one hell of a lot of good work (CAW). There are Pagan writers out there of 
sci-fi/fantasy books and role playing games. Some of them are good. Some of 
them are bad. We come in all colors.

	Unfortunately, there are plenty of hack writers, Pagan or otherwise, 
that get put on a throne by masses of drooling geeks who wouldn't know good 
writing if they read it. They like the neat new zap guns and sorceresses with 
unrealistic big tits on the cover of a cheap paperback rag. Sexpoitation is 
RAMPANT in sci-fi/fantasy fandom! So instead of putting their adolescent 
fantasies away and accepting the challenges of real life, off they go to tell 
the world that they are a 14th level fire wizard and they can fly! But shhh! 
Don't tell because it's a secret. And if you did tell I'd have to set my god 
on you and he's bigger than your goddess, so you'd get creamed! By the way, 
did I tell you how I fought a balrog single handed and won? Yeah, and I'm a 
Secret Ninja too. ZZOooooooom!

	This is what gives us a bad name. And I've seen `em act like this 
from 8 to 68, so don't tell me they grow up, plenty of them don't.


>Finally, minor flame: Fen do *NOT* refer to sf as sci-fi (rhymes with Skippy).
>We've forgiven Forry Ackerman for inventing that odious phrase, but normally
>it's used by bad & ignorant movie reviewers who think of Godzilla when they
>think of SF. Using sci-fi with fans (and there are a bunch here) get *real*
>irritated with the phrase. You might as well walk into downtown San Francisco
>and ask people in the street about 'Frisco - it's a great thing to do to get 
>ignored.

	Hmm, a bit defensive? Yes, I know you have a term for sci-fi/fantasy 
fans that you'd like me to use, but I have been lectured on the proper thing 
to call people of this genre by many people and EVERYBODY HAS A DIFFERENT 
NAME FOR IT. I'll stick to one that everyone can recognise, instead of 
subscribing to the name of the moment club, okay? Sorry if it grates, but I 
too have had contact with this group for years and I won't play the name-game 
anymore. Besides, who would recognise *any* one of the names that sci-fi fans 
call themselves unless they had contact with them? Gotta speak the common 
language here, not everyone has been to a con (thank the Goddess)!


			- Ashley

	"What dreams may come....."    - FotN