From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:16:15 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
: 
:   You stop telling me that I can't call myself Pagan with a capital "P", and
: I'll stop saying that I want to.  I've already said that I will never again, under
: any circumstances, ask people to capitalize Pagan in alt.pagan.
: 
:   Really, I have no problem with you calling yourself and Paganism anything
: you want to.
: 
:   I do have a real problem when you keep telling me that I am WRONG when
: I say that I am a Pagan, and when you keep telling me that my Paganism
: is not a religion.
 
I don't think either B.A. or I have ever said anything of the sort. You are
free to call yourself, and your beliefs, anything you want. However, it is
YOUR beliefs (note you acknowledge this by using "my" in your response). It
is not everyone elses belief. Thus - your Paganism may be a religion, other
peoples paganism is not. 

The difference is between an all inclusive statement and a personal statement.
The all inclusive statement is false, while the personal statement is true.

:   I'm amazed that you need us all to accept one truth or the other.  Whatever
: happened to plurality?  Whatever happened to tollerance of opposing views?

Oh, I am sure we can tolerate your views. :-)  We certainly do not have to
accept them as being valid, when applied to us - nor do we have to remain
silent about this disagreement.

:   Loosen up, man -- let some of us be wrong.  Ok?

How about only partly wrong? And, in your universe, maybe not wrong at all.

... deleted ...

: >"Yes, I am quite angry. If you think this sounds angry, you can just imagine 
: >what it would sound like if I hadn't set it aside for a day to cool off!"
: 
:   I'm sorry you're taking this so personally.  Please rest assured that I, for one,
: am sorry that this has gone so far or gotten so personal.  It really wasn't the point.
: 
:   If it's any help, I believe that for you, you are right. I support your right to believe
: whatever you want to believe, and don't think you should take my opinion of your
: beliefs as any measure of the validity of your beliefs.  What you say is right for you,
: is right for you.
: 
:   It's just not right for me -- but there's no reason why it should be, or why my
: saying that should deny you the right to say what is right for you.

The difference was - B.A. was speaking about his own personal beliefs, as well
as giving an example of why your belief was wrong. You seem to keep insisting
that your belief that Paganism is a religion is correct - regardless of several
statements from others who deny this.

The totality of your pagan beliefs may be rolled up in your religion - but
that is not true for many pagans. They have a way of life that they call Pagan,
and some have a religion that is part of this way of life.

... deleted ...

: want to be able to call myself what I want to call myself without being told that I'm
: "wrong" or that my religion is false and errant.

I don't think anyone has said that your religion is false or errant - I don't
even think anyone has even implied any such thing. Stating a disagreement with
the definition of a term is hardly casting doubt on a belief/tenet.

:   Because I call myself a Pagan, and say that I faith is Paganism, does certainly NOT
: mean that I'm saying that I agree with anyone else who calls themselves pagan or
: Pagan.  My definition of myself is not a definition of the catagory of religions which
: I belong to.

Exactly - nor does it mean that the definitions you choose for certain words are
going to be accepted by others. Part of the problem here is that Paganism, as a
modern life style, is still evolving. As such, there is no real hard and fast
definition - it is much easier to say what it is not.

:   I've talked to and worked with enough "big name Pagans" who also call themselves
: Pagan and say that they practice Paganism that I'm certain that I'm not hurting
: anyone when I say that I too am these things.

But, do they consider Paganism to be a religion? I am sure that Selena Fox
doesn't -  it is a way of life. Practicing Paganism and practicing a religion
are not necessarily the same thing. 

I don't think any ever argued that you were neither a Pagan or were practicing
Paganism.

:   Sorry that you find offense or threat in that, but there's no hierophaunt of
: Paganism telling us who's right and who's wrong (thank the Goddess !) so we're
: just going to have to get along, play nice, and be tollerant of each other's views.  Ok?

See above.

:   Anyway, if it's any consolation, I'm sure you'd be equally enraged by my definition
: of "Wicca".

Could be, you haven't posted it - but I doubt if I would be enraged. I might
disagree - and make loud noises and make long postings, but that is all.

:   So, just let me be wrong and happy.

Certainly - but, wouldn't you rather consider all views, and leave the option
for chaning your viewpoint open? I am doing so.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan