HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 06:03:11 GMT

In article <7154@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>
>In fact, Bulgarians HAVE NOT BEEN told about the Greek attrocities in
>Thrace and Macedonia  - described in the INDEPENDENT Carnegie report, but
>Greeks have been though a lot about the 'Bulgarian attrocities', described
>in a GREEK report after WWII. So - which government is causing distrust and
>which is putting the nasty history matters in the dustbin of the past?
>Quite an easy answer.


This is not true. As you needed to leave Bulgaria to see those reports
the same happens with the greeks; we were never tought of any atrocities.
Actually only some older individuals can somewhat remember things, but
officially the state tries to "forget" everything. There is nothing
which reasonably make the bulgarogreek political relations to be in trouble
after the 1950s. Only some lunatics fascisto-monarchists, who are less than
1% in Greece (plain monarchists are about 30%), speak for these things.



>>I should also note that nobody posting in this group is "feeding" the Bulgarian
>>population with anything.
>
>Of course - this is in the imagination of those who feel guilty for past
>and unpresented attrocities and have used the Bulgarian silence on the
>matter, which have left Bulgarians ignorant what was done to our nation for
>50 years - something which wasn't done for the 500 years which preceeded
>these 50 years.


I am sure that nobody has felt guilty for anything. The only people which
I have met with guilt complex are some older Germans. Does anybody feel guilty
for the 1878-1912 terrorism in Macedonia?  It seems no. But then and again
we are going to the "chicken-egg" syndrome... Mutlu tries to turn the
Armenian genocide to a Muslim one...

Besides, when someone makes comparisons, should't compare the modern nation-
states with medieval religious states, ie Greece or Bulgaria with Ottomans. You
either compare Greece with Bulgaria or Turkey, or you compare Ottomans
with Byzantines. The condition of the slavs under the Byzantines (in contrast
to the Ottomans) can be easily found by reading the highly scholar (written
by university professors and not by propagandists "war correspondents"):

D. Obolensky, "The Byzantine Commonwealth: Eastern Europe, 500-1453",
London, 1971. (Oxford U. Press describes the book as: On Byzantine-Slav
relations; excellent.)

Since it seems that you really try to find some valid historical accounts,
I think that this should be a good one :-).



Gr
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 06:44:44 GMT

In article <7155@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>
>Luben
>
>
>PS. I've thought I won't write in the newsgroups for a month, and I have
>saved some articles to responce, but this patronizing and insulting posting
>made me really unhappy and I can't stay silent. Fortunately, we can have
>some dialogue with you, Gregory, can't we? No insults, no patronizing, just
>exchange of thoughts and facts the other side doesn't know or haven't
>thought about.


I perfectly agree Luben. The guy who wrote these non-sense, let me say
this here, is a person who is definitely not qualified to speak. When
I was serving for 28 months in greek mountains my military service, he
was defecting in the US for studies. He cann't go back to Greece now
because of his stance, but still he enjoys to sell "sauvinism" to other
netters and he is actually be bombarded in a e-mail list by other Greeks.
Some how I understand his personal delemas and difficulties but his
attitudes are many times irrational.


Gr

PS: I hate to use personal data in public, but with that posting I've
reached my limits.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 06:32:45 GMT


>If one takes the same insulting tone, he can say "Your people have suffered
>from fascism during the same time (not all of it, but until 18 years ago
>there was one country in the Balkans ruled by fascist or pro-fascist and it
>wasn't Bulgaria). "


I hope that Mutlu has not managed to convince some people with his repetive
nonsense. Greece restored the republican system of government 18 years ago,
since it was removed for 7 years (from 1967 to 1974). Before that it was a
republican state (with King) since 1949 (the end of the civil war).

And a useful detail; the regime was not fascism but personal dictatorship.
Never had any *ideological backbone* (like in fascism), but thought itself
as a required intermittent rule from the army, before republicanism come
back when "internal situation permitted". It was exactly the same regime
which gave in the 1980's Turkey the 1979-1983 military rule.




>bashing the Bulgarians and trying to foget how tongues were cut when
>Bulgarian was spoken, how names of people were changed (Bulgarian
>communists iplemented badly in 1984 what Greek implemented with success 70
>years ago)


This is superficially true, but not actually. In 1984 the regime found
an easy way to divert the people; nobody had any irredendism against
Bulgaria, at least explicitly. While in Greek Macedonia after the 1913,
not only the Bulgarian irredendism was present (in the form of BWII, brea-
king King's promise), but the people had very fresh in their memories
cut tonques, burned houses, mutilated eyes etc etc, from the 30 years
constant terrorism (a whole life!) (bulgarian,greek,serbian,turkish origin)
and they were determined to not repeat the same story

Reports from politically motivated powers (which a year later were
bombarding Athens), had the same objectivity which today has a report
about Cuba which forgets what it goes on in El Salvador.


Gr
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Monday, 4 Jan 1993 18:25:43 EST
From: <IO20905@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: 5 Jan, 8pm Public tv show on AUBG in Blagoevgrad

+++++++ +++++++ +++++++ +++++++ +++++++ +++++++ +++++++ +++++++ +++++++

Sorry for the late notice:  Tuesday the 5th of January at 8pm

for New England tv viewers who can receive MPBN, the public
television station run by colleges and universities in Maine

The topic of the show will be the American University in Bulgaria
in Blagoevgrad.  There will be on-site shots and interviews with
faculty and students, and a little bit of rehearsals of "Our Town,"
directed by Al Cyrus of Orono, Maine.

I hope you all can see the show.  I'll be in rehearsals, myself,
so I'll miss it, unless some friends videotape it for me...  Enjoy.

Sus zdrave, y vsichko hubavo.  Karen
From: wsbusup2@rw8.urc.tue.nl (Boudewijn Wayers)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Who are Kuharic and Selimoski
Keywords: Puzzle
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:22:47 GMT
Reply-To: wsbusup2@urc.tue.nl
Followup-To: soc.culture.bulgaria

I am working on a puzzle for which I need to finish a sequence of
names. The names Kuharic and Selimoski are given and i need a third
name to finish the sequence. If you know the third name please let me
know via e-mail. If i get an answer I will post it to this group.

Thanks in advance, Kees van Tol.
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: Re: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
Date: 11 Jan 93 11:06:02 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <Jan11.005228.6598@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> rouskov@CS.ColoState.EDU (yordan rouskov) writes:

[deleted]

>As far as attrocities are concerned I think someone mentioned earlier that it is
>not the time to blame each other. It wouldn't be difficult to find examples of 
>attrocities that Greeks are responsible for (in fact it's quite easy but I prefer
>not to raise that question). 

In fact, Bulgarians HAVE NOT BEEN told about the Greek attrocities in
Thrace and Macedonia  - described in the INDEPENDENT Carnegie report, but
Greeks have been though a lot about the 'Bulgarian attrocities', described
in a GREEK report after WWII. So - which government is causing distrust and
which is putting the nasty history matters in the dustbin of the past?
Quite an easy answer.

>I should also note that nobody posting in this group is "feeding" the Bulgarian
>population with anything.

Of course - this is in the imagination of those who feel guilty for past
and unpresented attrocities and have used the Bulgarian silence on the
matter, which have left Bulgarians ignorant what was done to our nation for
50 years - something which wasn't done for the 500 years which preceeded
these 50 years. But even so - Bulgarians have not been told all this for
the sake of good relations ...

>I wonder whether are you speaking for yourself or for all of the Greek people.
>Who told you about the mistrust towards Bulgaria. 

This is clearly showing in which country what mistrust is being propagated
to the people. What a sad fact for 'civilized' countries.

>Have a nice week everybody
>
>Yordan

Likewise

Luben
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: Chestita Nova Godina
Date: 4 Jan 93 14:36:20 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.


Na vsichki - chestita nova godina - neka e mirna i uspeshna. Za sujalenie
pojelanieto mi za Budni Vecher (i 12-te yastiya) i Koleda ne se haresa na
servera ni, ta sega - malko na paterizi sa moite pojelania

Budete zdravi

Luben

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In Bulgaria, what's most unbelievable is most likely to happen."

					           Pencho Slaveikov
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bulgaria:2065 soc.culture.canada:9925
From: chao6@husc11.harvard.edu (James Chao)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.canada
Subject: World Model United Nations Conference in Prague
Date: 12 Jan 93 07:23:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1993Jan12.022325.19215
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

To all those interested in international relations, politics, and the
United Nations -- WorldMUN is a great forum for the discussion of 
current issues being debated by the United Nations today: 

Harvard World Model United Nations (WorldMUN) is an international
conference that brings together university students and young
professionals from around the globe to siimulate the workings of the
United Nations.  The second annual WorldMUN conference will be held from
March 28, 1993, through March 31, 1993, at the Hotel Diplomat in Prague,
Czechoslovakia.  

Ten committees, representing the General Assembly, Economic and Social
Council, and Specialized Agencies of the United Nations, will discuss
issues from the actual UN agenda.  In addition to the formal debate of
resolutions, committee sessions will be augmented by presentations from
politicians, businessmen, scholars, and activists who have helped shape
the dramatic world events of recent years.

In this era of momentous political change, WorldMUN seeks to assess the
role of the United Nations in a new world order.  WorldMUN marks the first
truly international simulated United Nations where participants play the
roles of their own nation's ambassadors.  WorldMUN strives to teach
tomorrow's leaders about the United Nations and its methods of conflict
resolution.  It aims to foster skills in negotiation and debate, in order
that delegates may formulate resolutions on topics currently discussed in
the real United Nations.  These resolutions will be sent to the actual
United Nations committees.

WorldMUN 1993 will take place at the Hotel Diplomat in Prague,
Czechoslovakia.  The Hotel Diplomat is Prague's most modern conference
center.  Prague is both one of the most beautiful metropoles of Europe and
an ideal location for debating current world politics and the changing
role of the United Nations.

The Hotel diplomat is a luxury resort that offers restaurants, shops, a
night club, and fitness and spa equipment.  Delegates will stay at the
Hotel Diplomat for the reduced rate of 130DM/day double occupancy, which
includes two meals a day.

Delegate registration is $US60 per delegate.  For more information, please
reply to this e-mail address or write/fax:
Joshua A. Salomon, Secretary-General
Harvard World Model United Nations 1993
Suite 23, 1430 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02138-3810
UNITED STATES

Telephone:  001-617-493-6995
Fax:  001-617-493-6995

James Chao
chao6@husc.harvard.edu
From: mih8447@usl.edu (Hebert Marc I)
Subject: Translation
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 08:45:13 GMT

A friend of mine who living in Las Vegas but originally from Bulgaria recently
sent me a letter concluded by "Tuopme! uue upabumca mede'"
Would someone be kind enough to translate this for me?

Marc


Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
From: branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis)
Subject: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
Reply-To: branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis)
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 20:12:48 GMT

The latest exchanges on the Macedonian issue among Bulgarian netters
indicated the rise of an old "irredentism" among ethnic Bulgarians
which goes back to Saint Stefan treaty for Greater Bulgaria.

I would like to warn the Bulgarian netters that your country has
been defeated 4 times on this issue, and it is about time to drop
this expansionistic dreams in favor of economic development and
peaceful coexistence with your neighbors.

Your people had suffered a lot under communists and this kind of
irredentism is NOT the right bread and butter to feed the Bulgarian
population. On top of that, Greek people still remember the Bulgarian
attrocities in Northern Greece [Macedonia, Thrace], during WW-I and
WW-IIs.

For the common good of all the people in the Balkans, try to refrain
from these policies that have been proved so catastrophic to your
country. Otherwise, the mistrust of Greek people towards Bulgaria
will continue for ever. Greece can take the neccessary measures to protect
its own interests in the area.


Spiros
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
From: jstefano@engr.UVic.CA (Jan  Stefanov)
Subject: Re: RFE/RL January 7
Keywords: bulg news
Reply-To: jstefano@engr.UVic.CA
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 01:35:06 GMT



Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
From: rouskov@CS.ColoState.EDU (yordan rouskov)
Subject: Re: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
Originator: rouskov@CS.ColoState.EDU
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:52:28 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department


In article <1993Jan10.201248.21241@sci.ccny.cuny.edu>, branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis) writes:
|> The latest exchanges on the Macedonian issue among Bulgarian netters
|> indicated the rise of an old "irredentism" among ethnic Bulgarians
|> which goes back to Saint Stefan treaty for Greater Bulgaria.
|> 
|> I would like to warn the Bulgarian netters that your country has
|> been defeated 4 times on this issue, and it is about time to drop
|> this expansionistic dreams in favor of economic development and
|> peaceful coexistence with your neighbors.

Thanks for the warning. I'm sure the "ethnic" bulgarian netters will bear that 
in mind. I'd also like kindly to remind the greek netter that the bulgarians
have the right to discuss whatever they want to espesially topics related to
their own history. Speaking about history maybe I should remind you that the
Greeks were never responsible for the bulgarian defeats.

|> 
|> Your people had suffered a lot under communists and this kind of
|> irredentism is NOT the right bread and butter to feed the Bulgarian
|> population. On top of that, Greek people still remember the Bulgarian
|> attrocities in Northern Greece [Macedonia, Thrace], during WW-I and
|> WW-IIs.

I didn't know that Nothern Greece is a synonym for Thrace and Macedonia but anyway.
(May be you wanted to say some parts of Thrace and Macedonia)
As far as attrocities are concerned I think someone mentioned earlier that it is
not the time to blame each other. It wouldn't be difficult to find examples of 
attrocities that Greeks are responsible for (in fact it's quite easy but I prefer
not to raise that question). 
I should also note that nobody posting in this group is "feeding" the Bulgarian
population with anything.

|> 
|> For the common good of all the people in the Balkans, try to refrain
|> from these policies that have been proved so catastrophic to your
|> country. Otherwise, the mistrust of Greek people towards Bulgaria
|> will continue for ever. Greece can take the neccessary measures to protect
|> its own interests in the area.
|> 

I wonder whether are you speaking for yourself or for all of the Greek people.
Who told you about the mistrust towards Bulgaria. Is that an official goverment
position or what? It's also interesting what kind of measures you are talking
about. Everyone of the netters posting in this group usually presents his/her own
position only and defends it with suitable arguments. I don't remember anyone 
speaking for the bulgarian people or expressing official goverment positions.
I hope that will help you understand that your posting is irrelevent. If you
want to argue, please do that in a civilized way. That will be for the common 
good of all the people in the Balkans.
|> 
|> Spiros

Have a nice week everybody

Yordan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
From: bliznako@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Bliznakov, Plamen)
Subject: Re: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:37:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.052606.23305@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis) writes...
> 
>Greece has proven that it would prefer to see
>this new state to be absorbed by its viable neighbors: Bulgaria and/or
>Serbia. In early 1991 the 3 PMs, greek, bulgarian, serbian had discussed
>this and it seemed could found a mutually acceptable solution (like in
>Balkan War I), but this time the great Powers were better informed and
>frozed everything.
>
As far as I remember, Dimita^r Popov, who was Bulgarian Prime-Minister
at that time, refused to participate in the meeting of Balkan
prime-ministers in Athens in the very last minute before the meeting
(although this meeting and the refusal of Popov remained mistery for
the Bulgarian public).

Besides, I don't see how somebody else's prime minister may decide the 
faith of other people. People of the Republic of Macedonia didn't vote
at the Bulgarian parliamentary elections in 1990, the overwhelming majority 
of them doesn't seem to feel themselves Bulgarian, so why would one expect
Bulgarian (or Serbian, or Greek) authorities to decide for them ?

Plamen
From: bliznako@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Bliznakov, Plamen)
Subject: Re: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:36:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.201248.21241@sci.ccny.cuny.edu>, branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis) writes...
>The latest exchanges on the Macedonian issue among Bulgarian netters
>indicated the rise of an old "irredentism" among ethnic Bulgarians
>which goes back to Saint Stefan treaty for Greater Bulgaria.
> 
>I would like to warn the Bulgarian netters that your country has
>been defeated 4 times on this issue, and it is about time to drop
>this expansionistic dreams in favor of economic development and
>peaceful coexistence with your neighbors.
> 
>Spiros

Could you quote a posting which at least implies any "expansionistic
dreams" ? I myself was trying to follow closely the discussions on
Macedonian question and participated myself. However, I have seen nothing
but desire to clearly find out "what was" and "what is" on the issue. 

As far as Bulgarian "expansionism" is concerned... I was very upset because
of the possibilities of a large scale Balkan war before going to
Bulgaria last summer. There were several postings on the net and articles
in Western media describing such a scenario. However, once I went to Sofia
I heard nobody and read nothing speaking about such possibilities. Nobody
over there was even thinking of a potential involvement of Bulgaria in 
military activities, not to speak of getting prepared for a war ! Moreover,
since the fall of communism there were substantial cuts in Bulgarian defense
spending, even the term of regular military service was reduced (which
effectively cuts the no. of soldiers on duty in half). Everyone is PRO "peaceful
coexistence with neighbouring countries". So why speak about
"expansionistic dreams" ? 


Best regards,

Plamen
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: BULGARIAN IRREDENTISM
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:29:14 GMT

In article <Jan11.005228.6598@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> rouskov@CS.ColoState.EDU (yordan rouskov) writes:
>
>Thanks for the warning. I'm sure the "ethnic" bulgarian netters will bear that 
>in mind. I'd also like kindly to remind the greek netter that the bulgarians
>have the right to discuss whatever they want to espesially topics related to
>their own history. Speaking about history maybe I should remind you that the
>Greeks were never responsible for the bulgarian defeats.


Certainly a polite answer,


>I didn't know that Nothern Greece is a synonym for Thrace and Macedonia but anyway.
>(May be you wanted to say some parts of Thrace and Macedonia)


That's right. He speaks for the Greek parts only.
And we think that the Greek part corresponds percentagely to the greek
population there during the Ottomans (Macedonia and Thrace considered
combined).


>As far as attrocities are concerned I think someone mentioned earlier that it is
>not the time to blame each other. It wouldn't be difficult to find examples of 
>attrocities that Greeks are responsible for (in fact it's quite easy but I prefer
>not to raise that question). 


That's right. I had mentioned that and I said that this is like the
riddle "What came first? The egg or the chicken?"


>I should also note that nobody posting in this group is "feeding" the Bulgarian
>population with anything.


Certainly not the Bulgarian population from here!

But unfortunately I have witnessed lately to the Sofia radio in short
waves, and in the greek language programm, that "all the troubles come
from not-applying the San Stefano treaty, and this should be considered
in the current political situation". Even though I was delighted with
the quality of the greek spoken, the message was not that welcomed from
me. It means: We are 50%, we want 100%, to my interpretation.


>I wonder whether are you speaking for yourself or for all of the Greek people.


Certainly only for himself.


>Who told you about the mistrust towards Bulgaria. Is that an official goverment
>position or what? It's also interesting what kind of measures you are talking
>about.


It is true that the relations before the Dimitrof's government were
much warmer. But this again is fluctuating.


>Everyone of the netters posting in this group usually presents his/her own
>position only and defends it with suitable arguments. I don't remember anyone 
>speaking for the bulgarian people or expressing official goverment positions.
>I hope that will help you understand that your posting is irrelevent. If you
>want to argue, please do that in a civilized way. That will be for the common 
>good of all the people in the Balkans.


I agree with you totally.


>Yordan


Have a nice week too.


Gr

PS: In Greece there are all the kind of tendencies. Political, historical,
    personal etc etc. What it matters in politics is the dominant attitude
    and the permanent foreign policy (if exists).