HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mmiller@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark Miller)
Newsgroups: co.politics
Subject: Ross Perot will be on Larry King Live, Monday, 9pm Eastern, on your CNN cable station
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:01:36 GMT
Distribution: co
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.

The title pretty much says it all.  Perot will make what I think is
his 2nd TV appearance since the election, to discuss the plans and
organization of "United We Stand, America" which recently was
officially registered as a non-profit organization.

|Mark Miller, computer science   |"Like a government, the operating system   |
|major at C.S.U.                 |performs no useful function by itself."    |
|millerm@cs.colostate.edu        |   --- Operating System Concepts           |
|mmiller@nyx.cs.du.edu           |"Let me ask you something.  Is the         |
|                                |government worth preserving when it lies   |
|                                |to the people?" --- "JFK"                  |
|        "FATHER!...FATHER!...THE SLEEPER HAS AWAKENED!" --- "Dune"          |
From: gary@isis.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Newsgroups: co.politics
Subject: Re: What is a "hate crime"?
Date: 7 Jan 93 16:36:39 GMT
Distribution: co
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO

pc> Paul Ciszek
gs> Gary Strand

gs> I wasn't aware that the presence of a swastika was automatically indicative
    of neo-Nazi beliefs in the mind of its creator, or that "group-hate" was
    present.

pc> Well, now you know.

  I'm not clueless, just simply trying to be objective.

pc> And it's high time that people become aware of this, too, as Nazism enjoys
    a revival in Germany, and parts of Europe are unstable enough to make
    easy pickings for any aspiring meglomaniac.  I suppose, though, that people
    like Gary will still refuse to understand what the swastika stands for,
    even as the ovens are fired up again.

  I know full well what the swastika means, as does most everyone. That's why
  it's usage gets such a strong reaction, right up there with the "Sieg Heil"
  salute. All I'm saying is that in not every instance of its presence will
  we find someone who adores Hitler. I'd guess that at least in some cases,
  the jerks who use it barely even know who Hitler is.

  As for the Fourth Reich being on the horizon, I don't think so. We've seen
  it before, and we can work at getting rid of it too. Most "neo-Nazis" are
  unemployed lower-class white teen males, who have nothing better to do. It's
  a type of gang with a twist. Their leaders are the ones to worry about, your
  Tom Metzger and Shawn Slater types. But, if what appeals to them is a dead
  ideology, then they've already made a mistake.

  In any case, I'd prefer prosecuting someone who paints a swastika as a van-
  dal, not as Adolf Hitler Jr.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
From: pack@acd.ucar.edu (Daniel Packman)
Newsgroups: co.politics
Subject: Re: What is a "hate crime"?
Summary: I know it when I see it
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:21:11 GMT
Distribution: co
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research - Atmospheric Chemistry Div

In article <1993Jan7.163639.9957@ncar.ucar.edu> gary@isis.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
>...
>
>  In any case, I'd prefer prosecuting someone who paints a swastika as a van-
>  dal, not as Adolf Hitler Jr.

In prosecuting some crimes, the hate context must be taken into account.

Painting a swastika on a Jewish business recalls the holocaust and is not
in the same league as painting random grafitti.

Similarly, burning a cross on a black family's front yard recalls
lynching and other atrocities and is not in the same league as setting
a trash fire.

So fine, prosecute the skinhead as a vandal (or visiGoth? :-} ) but
correctly identify the magnitude of the crime.

-- 
Dan Packman     NCAR                             INTERNET: pack@ncar.UCAR.EDU
(303) 497-1427  P.O. Box 3000
                Boulder, CO  80307-3000        NSI/DECNET: 9583::PACK
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Newsgroups: co.politics
Subject: Re: What is a "hate crime"?
Date: 7 Jan 93 05:15:47 GMT
Distribution: co
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.

gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:

>  I wasn't aware that the presence of a swastika was automatically indicative
>  of neo-Nazi beliefs in the mind of its creator, or that "group-hate" was
>  present.

Well, now you know.

And it's high time that people become aware of this, too, as Nazism enjoys
a revival in Germany, and parts of Europe are unstable enough to make
easy pickings for any aspiring meglomaniac.  I suppose, though, that people
like Gary will still refuse to understand what the swastika stands for,
even as the ovens are fired up again.


Paul Ciszek                      When we are planning for posterity, we
                                 ought to remember that virtue is not
pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu            hereditary.     --Thomas Paine
Newsgroups: co.politics
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: What is a "hate crime"?
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Distribution: co
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 23:03:40 GMT

gs> Gary Strand
dp> Daniel Packman

gs> If you get beat up by a bunch of thugs, it's not as bad a crime as a homo-
    sexual getting beat up by a bunch of thugs, because one of the thugs yel-
    led "faggot" at him? To me, both are simply cases of assault.

dp> In the case you argue, I tend to agree that calling it assault is suffic-
    ient.

  That's not what the pro-"hate crime" folks say.

dp> In the examples I gave, the context of the victim in combination with the
    specific act is crucial.  If random person A burns random trash on random
    person B's lawn, then we can measure the size of the burn marks on the lawn
    to determine how serious this arson is.  If random person A burns a cross
    and random person B is black, then the size of the burn marks on the lawn
    are secondary to the symbolism (and implied threat) of the act.

  Why? How far do we go in deciding that symbols (ideas) or "implied" threats
  are as real as acts of physical violence, and ought to be prosecuted just as
  fully? What's next, Thought Police?

dp> The stated use of an objective system is no guarantee of objectivity.

  Of course. That doesn't mean we have to make the system even less objective
  than it already is.

dp> The stated use of a subjective system is no guarantee of capriciousness.

  Too often it is.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Newsgroups: co.politics
From: rgordon@convex.com (Rob Gordon)
Subject: Amendment 2 Discussion
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:24:21 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

For all you CoSprings netters:

Friday, Jan 8 at 6:00pm a Ground Zero rep (your's truly) will be discussing
Amendment 2 related issues on KGFT 100.7FM with Will Perkins, the Exec.
Director of Colorado for Family values. It is a call-in show. Phone
is 531-5555. KGFT is a Christian radio show in Co Springs so it should
be an interesting audience.

rob
From: chuck@mtechca.maintech.com
Newsgroups: co.politics.amend2.discuss
Subject: BOYCOTT 0 COLORADO 20
Date: 4 Jan 93 01:48:31 PST
Organization: MAINTECH, A division of Volt Delta Resources,Inc. Orange, CA.

-- LOOKS LIKE THE BOYCOTT ISN'T HOLDING MUCH WATER IN SKI COUNTRY!  UP 20%
-- FROM LAST YEAR......EVEN WITHOUT BARBARA AND HER SKI SLOPE NOSE!
-- GET A CLUE PEOPLE!! BOYCOTTING A STATE DON'T BUY YOU SHIT! FOCUS ON
-- HUMAN EDUCATION!!!!
-- chuck
-----------------OPINIONS ARE MINE...ALL MINE...LIKE EM or NOT!----------------
| Chuck G.                                                                    |
| GO BRONCOS!!!!!!
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| NO TIME FOR A CONSCIENCE,                     e-mail: chuck@mtechca.uucp    |
| AND WE RECOGNIZE NO CRIME.                            mtechca!chuck@wdt.com |
| YEAH, WE GOT DOGS AND VALVOLINE,                                            |
| IT'S A PRETTY DAMN GOOD TIME!                                               |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: co.politics.amend2.discuss
From: mjs@fc.hp.com (Marc Sabatella)
Subject: Re: In need for clarification on #2 [was: Colorado Ski Report]
Followup-To: co.politics, co.politics.amend2.discuss
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 16:39:00 MST


[Reposted in `co.politics.amend2.discuss' by maman@mars.Colorado.EDU (Nathan M. Maman)]

: [
:     I've taken out `rec.skiing', `rec.travel', `nyx.misc',
:     `du.general', `bit.listserv.travel-l' from the Newsgroups: line
:     and added `co.politics.amend2.discuss' where the Followup-To: are
:     also redirected to.
: ]

I added back co.politics.  I still don't get co.politics.amend2.discuss

: 		, or entitle any person or class of persons to
: ...
: 	and thester@nyx.cs.du.edu (Uncle Fester) wrote it with `enact'
: 	instead of `entitle' in the above.

"enact" doesn't parse grammatically.  It's gotta be entitle.

: 	Provided the above version is correct, it's written in A#2
: 	``[...] homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual orientation, conduct,
: 	practices or relationships shall constitute or otherwise be
: 	the basis of, or entitle any person [...]''.  So any sexual
: 	orientation still constitutes a basis for a lawsuit, as far as
: 	I understand it.

Whoa!  You ellided out the very important "Neither the State of Colorado ...
shall ... enforce ... any statute ... whereby ..." which entirely negates the
meaning of the above!  The point of the amendment is to remove the right to
file such a lawsuit, not to grant it!

There are currently (for another week, anyhow) laws that simply say one cannot
discriminate based on sexual orientation.  This obviously applies to both
heterosexuals and homosexuals.  What is not clear about the amendment is
whether this entire section of the law is rendered unenforceable, or whether
only homosexuals are prevented from filing suit.  One could argue that
heterosexuals are similarly prevented from filing suit based on their
"negative" homosexuals preference.  This disctinction might even turn out to be
significanty.

: 	Is a judgement in one or more of those categories ``statute,
: 	regulation, ordinance or policy''?

Probably not, but I'm no expert.

: 	If that's the case, then can the words ``homosexual, lesbian,
: 	or bisexual'' be used in a judgement without rendering it
: 	void?

Perhaps (I haven't gained expertise since the above disclaimer), as long as
the judgement wasn't based on any statute, regulation, ordinance, or policy.
The "policy" bit probably hurts here.

--
Marc Sabatella
marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com
--
Amendment 2 Is Legalized Discrimination - Shame On You, Colorado
--
"Neither the State of Colorado ... nor any of its municipalities ... shall ...
 enforce any ... ordinance ... whereby homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual
 orientation ... shall ... be the basis of ... any ... claim of discrimination"
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Newsgroups: co.politics
From: thomasd@tps.COM (Thomas W. Day)
Subject: Emissions Inspections, is new really better than old?
Organization: TPS
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:17:45 GMT

This is probably more a question for mechanics than politicians, but here 
goes.  My newest ever vehicle, a 1986 Toyota Van, recently failed an 
emissions test: CO was 4X allowed and HCs were 10X allowed.  This vehicle is 
as loaded with antipollution stuff as it gets: fuel injection, sensors 
everywhere, catalitic converter, etc.  It will cost me $270 to get this 
unit back on the road.

"My other car is a" 1973 Toyota Hilux with 300k+ miles and no serious 
antipollution add-ons.  It has always passed inspections in Nebraska, 
California, and Colorado.  And it did again this year.  Not only did it 
pass, but its emissions were lower than the max levels for the '86 van.  

So here's my question: is there really a significant improvement being 
made to any part of the exhaust emissions by all this "improved technology" 
or are we just being jerked by our good intentions into buying new cars?  If 
my old pickup gets better mileage, maintains low emissions (at least 
relative to my newer van), and doesn't cost the resources it takes to build 
a new vehicle every few years, what is the point in owning a newer car?  
Please don't feed me estetic reasons, the Hilux's ease of maintenance 
overwhelms any improvement in cosmetics or even the addition of air 
conditioning that my van offers.
From: kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary)
Newsgroups: co.politics
Subject: Re: In need for clarification on #2 [was: Colorado Ski Report]
Date: 9 Jan 1993 03:48:52 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hplsdak.col.hp.com

mjs@fc.hp.com (Marc Sabatella) writes:
> 
> There are currently (for another week, anyhow) laws that simply say one cannot
> discriminate based on sexual orientation.
> 
> Marc Sabatella

I thought amendment 2 was effective January 1, 1993.  I believe the group
that filed the suit to have amend 2 declared unconstitutional asked the 
judge to put a "restraining order" (probably not the correct legal term)
on the amendment until the case is decided.  Does anyone know the status
of that request?  I personally expected that the judge would grant that
request simply because it is pointless to have it enacted and then later
declared unconstitutional.

Dan Kary

-- 
"And that, my leige, is how we know the earth to be banana shaped."
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Newsgroups: co.politics
Subject: Re: What is a "hate crime"?
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:48:43 GMT
Distribution: co
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO

sm> Suzanne Morine
gs> Gary Strand

sm> [A swastika is sprayed on someone's car]

gs> Isn't this just vandalism of private property, the swastika being no more
    relevant than a peace sign?

sm> Since history has many incidents of anti-jewish sentiment, since we as a
    society have collectively decided that such nonsensical group-hate is not
    desireable, and given the rise in neo-nazism, it is relevant. 

  I wasn't aware that the presence of a swastika was automatically indicative
  of neo-Nazi beliefs in the mind of its creator, or that "group-hate" was
  present.

sm> But I do think it's overly simplistic to brush off as *irrelevant* a crim-
    inal's motivating factor (in this case, group-hate): finding that motiva-
    ting factor helps law-enforcement find criminals.

  How can we be so sure that we *know* this motivation? I'm not very confident
  that we can read another person's thoughts, and that a person's actions are
  clear and unambiguous clues towards their beliefs.

gs> [A] "hate crime" without some already-covered-by-law incident with it 
    strikes me as treading very dangerous ground with regards to freedom of
    speech. Where do we draw the line between "You stupid nigger!" and "Hey,
    hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today!"?

sm> I think it would be a matter of increasing the seriousness of the crime
    involved, like the motivations of murder varying the seriousness of murder
    charges.  That is, you wouldn't be able to be charged for simply hating
    someone.

  I wouldn't bet on others having the same restraint.

sm> But if X kills Y because X hated Y's kind, I hope the law doesn't just
    mark it "manslaughter" because X didn't know Y personally.

  Why? The addition of "hate crime" to the list of charges won't make that
  much of a difference, will it? Y is dead whether or not X hated Y.

gs> I am very uncomfortable with the idea that someone who says things that I
    don't like can be rightfully charged with a crime. Who's to say when things
    get turned an *I'm* on the end of a "hate crime" law?

sm> The term "fighting words" keeps coming to mind, something I believe isn't
    covered by freedom of speech.

  Unfortunately. I'm an absolutist when its to free speech.

sm> I assume the LBJ reference above is to the lyrics of a song, maybe?

  No, it was a favorite chant of protestors of the Vietnam war. Poor ol' LBJ
  used to hear it all the time from the White House, courtesy the folks par-
  ading out in front.

sm> That and the nativity scene don't involve personal confrontations, or
    crimes, such as (as you pointed out) vandalism. 

  If a "hate crime" cannot exist without a property or personal crime, then
  isn't it superfluous?
--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 10:37:13 -0500
From: Tracy Bowers <tbowers@sura.net>
To: status@sura.net
Subject: T1 down MBJ-TAU




01/11/93	MBJ - TAU, ATU - JKV	
09:30		SURAnets T1 backbone between the MCI pops in Tallahassee, FL
		and Mobile Junction, AB  is down.  The T1 backbone between
		the MCI pops in Atlanta Georgia and Jacksonville, FL is taking
		errors.   As a result the most of the Florida sites are either 
		unreachable or poor response time due to packet loss.  The 
		following is a list of sites affected by these circuit
		 problems.

		TAU: Tallahassee, FL POP
			
		FAMU - Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University
		FSU  - Florida State University
		UWF  - University of West Florida
		FIRN - Florida Information Resource Network

		JKV: Jacksonville, FL POP

		ERAU - Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University
		UFL2 - University of Florida
		UFL1 - University of Florida
		NRLO - Naval Research Laboratory, Orlando
		
		UNF - University of North Florida
		UCF - University of Central Florida
		SBAC - School Board of Alachua County

		
		MSB: Miami, FL POP

		TMI - Telematics International, Inc.
		FIT - Florida Institute of Technology
		PBAC - Palm Beach Atlantic College  
		MDCC - Miami-Dade Community College
		BARRYM - Barry University
		SFWMD - South Florida Water Management District
		
		USF - University of Southern Florida
		FIUUP -  Florida International University 
		FIU -  Florida International University
		HAR - Harris Coroporation
		UMIA - University of Miami
		NOVA - Nova University
		CFT - Creative Friendly Technologies
		PW - Pratt and Whitney

	

 ---<} Tracy Lee Bowers {>---
       tbowers@sura.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SURAnet                                          Southeastern Universities
Network Operations Center			   Research Association
College Park, Maryland                                                   
(301)982-3214                                      Email: noc@sura.net         
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 15:52:01 -0500
From: Youthana Sivali <youth@sura.net>
To: status@sura.net
Subject: NIH Down



1/12/93		NIH- The National Institutes of Health site in Bethesda, Md
15:30-		     is currently down due to unknown line problems. Telco
		     has been notified and is investigating the problem, but
                     no estimated uptime can be given at this point. No
                     other sites are affected by this outage.




Youthana Sivali
SURAnet Operations
(301)982-3214


email to: noc@sura.net
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:19:46 -0500
From: ANS Network Operations Center <noc@noc.ans.net>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 01/05/92 CICnet node Bradley University Unreachable 17:57 - ??

01/05/92 CICnet node Bradley University Unreachable 17:57 - ??
due to a circuit problem.  

	-Thomas Christie
	 ANS Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 03:19:54 -0500
From: ANS Network Operations Center <noc@noc.ans.net>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 01/08/93 ENSS 173  ITESM Unreachable 02:03 - 02:56 EST

01/08/93 ENSS 173  ITESM Unreachable 02:03 - 02:56 EST due
to problems with the circuit.

Stephen Powell
ANS Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 19:55:44 -0500
From: Youthana Sivali <youth@sura.net>
To: status@sura.net
Subject: NIH Up


1/12/93		The National Institutes of Health site in Bethesda, Md is
15:30-19:51 	is now again reachable. The site had experienced connectivity
		problems throughout the afternoon due to a cabling problem
                which was corrected.



Youthana Sivali
SURAnet Operations
(301)982-3214

email to: noc@sura.net
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 14:59:34 -0500
From: Tracy Bowers <tbowers@sura.net>
To: status@sura.net
Subject: FIT site back up...



01/07/93	FIT
03:00		Florida Instutute of Technology, site is now reachable.




 ---<} Tracy Lee Bowers {>---
       tbowers@sura.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SURAnet                                          Southeastern Universities
Network Operations Center			   Research Association
College Park, Maryland                                                   
(301)982-3214                                      Email: noc@sura.net         
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 15:47:29 -0500
From: Tracy Bowers <tbowers@sura.net>
To: chris@aquarius.aquarius.cc.ucf.edu
Cc: sura-ops%noc.sura.net@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: UCF cannot see the rest of the world. (fwd)



	Chris here is a copy of my mail I sent to the net.  This sould
explain the situation.  If you have any questions please let us know.


From tbowers@sura.net Mon Jan 11 15:45:51 1993
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 14:05:39 -0500
From: Tracy Bowers <tbowers@sura.net>
To: STATUS@sura.net
Subject: [tbowers@sura.net: T1 down MBJ-TAU]

Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 10:37:13 -0500
From: Tracy Bowers <tbowers@sura.net>
To: status@sura.net
Subject: T1 down MBJ-TAU




01/11/93	MBJ - TAU, ATU - JKV	
01:15		SURAnet's T1 backbone between the MCI pops in Tallahassee, FL
		and Mobile Junction, AB is now back up.   The T1 backbone
		between Atlanta Georgia (ATU MCI pop) and Tallahassee, FL (JKV
		MCI pop) is also back up.  This circuit was found to have an
		M13/B8ZS mismatch.  This was corrected.
	
		The following is a list of sites that were effected by this
		outage.

		TAU: Tallahassee, FL POP
			
		FAMU - Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University
		FSU  - Florida State University
		UWF  - University of West Florida
		FIRN - Florida Information Resource Network

		JKV: Jacksonville, FL POP

		ERAU - Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University
		UFL2 - University of Florida
		UFL1 - University of Florida
		NRLO - Naval Research Laboratory, Orlando
		
		UNF - University of North Florida
		UCF - University of Central Florida
		SBAC - School Board of Alachua County

		
		MSB: Miami, FL POP

		TMI - Telematics International, Inc.
		FIT - Florida Institute of Technology
		PBAC - Palm Beach Atlantic College  
		MDCC - Miami-Dade Community College
		BARRYM - Barry University
		SFWMD - South Florida Water Management District
		
		USF - University of Southern Florida
		FIUUP -  Florida International University 
		FIU -  Florida International University
		HAR - Harris Coroporation
		UMIA - University of Miami
		NOVA - Nova University
		CFT - Creative Friendly Technologies
		PW - Pratt and Whitney

	

 ---<} Tracy Lee Bowers {>---
       tbowers@sura.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SURAnet                                          Southeastern Universities
Network Operations Center			   Research Association
College Park, Maryland                                                   
(301)982-3214                                      Email: noc@sura.net         
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------