From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 06:46:58 GMT

Tanel Tammet (tammet@cs.chalmers.se) wrote:
: In article <1993Jan2.130625.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
: >In article <1992Dec31.161143.11815@cs.chalmers.se>, tammet@cs.chalmers.se 
: >(Tanel Tammet) writes:
: 
: In my understanding Swedish is one of the official languages
: in Finland due to the following reasons (in the diminishing
: order of importance). Of course, you know the real reasons
: much better than me, so please correct if something is badly wrong:
: 
: 
: 1) Historical reasons. Finland has been the area of Swedish
: dominance for centuries. Swedish  used to be the language of
: elite.

You are correct. Swedish is an old colonial relic in Finland.
I am for instance a memebr in The Federation of Finnishness whose
goal is to abolish this old relic. We call it as the last example
of swedish language colonialism. The current position of Swedish
in Finland is only possible
due to still high amount of swedish speakers in Finnish political
and economical elite. Swedish will be abolished during the time certainly,
because it does not belong to a modern Finland.

: 
: In Estonia German stands up as analogy to Swedish in Finland.
: 
You are correct. The swedish speakers try to keep their positions
by all means and prevent all kinds of efforts where position
of Finnish would be better. After a hard battle university education
was given also in Finnish, the swedish speakers tried to keep finnish as
"a lower language" as long as possible and their attitudes in many cases
have not changed. They pay once for that of course.


: 2) Political reasons. Finland wants to be in the group of
: Scandinavian countries, both politically and economically
: (and perhaps also culturally, to some extent). This is
: simplified by accepting Swedish (the main Scandinavian language)
: as one of the official languages.
: 
This is an old argument used by the "swedophones" in order to assure
the "importance" of swedish. It is of course nonsence in a modern Europe.

: IMHO, the question  which language has which status in some
: country is NOT just a matter of convenience. Language is
: clearly a vehicle for manifesting power. Say, accepting
: German as one of the official languages in Estonia would,
: after some time, have important political consequences.
: So would accepting Russian. 
: 
Status of Swedish is a relic of an old colonial time, but The Federation
of Finnishness among the other organisations work for getting rid of this
old burden. The swedish speakers try to hold their positions because
it for them profitable in many ways, especially in educational fields. 
: 
: 3) there are some ethnic swedes living in Finland. However,
: the percentage of swedes is so small that it clearly is not
: a main reason of accepting Swedish.

All the swedish speakers in Finland are BILINGUAL. There are actually
NO ethnic swedes in Finland, but bilingual finns who say they 
are swedish speakers. Only on the Aland Island one can find monolingual
swedishspeakers today.
: 
The amount of people who register themselves as swedishspeakers in census
is a bit under 300 000. Most of them are actually bilingual. In many cases
it just a matter of taste whether a person is " a swedish speaker" or not.
Sometimes it is profitable being a swedish speaker because in education
you can get easier places at the universities and schools due to the
quotas for "swedish speakers". Competition in finnish speaking educational
institutes is much harder than in swedish speaking ones, so with quite
bad certificates you can get a place for instance in a nursery school, 
techinical school, not to speak about the universitities if you are a
swedish speaker.

The swedes due to their postions in the political and economical elite
have been able to hold this. When needed they seek help from Sweden.

For instance:
When the carelian refugees came to Finland after WWII, Sweden threated
not to give aid for Finland if the karelians will be settled in those
areas where lives swedish speakers. You know karelians were finnish
speakers and due to old traditional rasism which is deep rooted among
the swedes the finns should not live on "their areas."


: Now, as one can easily observe, many finns have mixed feelings
: towards having Swedish as an official language. The question
: whether Swedish should be obligatory in schools is subject
: to debate. But, as the number of swedes in Finland is relatively
: small and Sweden clearly will never have amibitions to
: annex or otherwise control Finland, accepting Swedish is
: not dangerous at all.
: 
The battle goes on and the conciousness is rising among the finns. 
A mandatory swedish will be abolished even if the swedish elite
resists the idea. They want to keep their priviledgies. In Sweden
lives more finnish speakers but never Sweden gives for the finnish
speakers such priviledgies as the swedish speakers enjoy in Finland.
That is also one reason to abolish swedish from Finland, the sooner the better.
: 
: What kind of support do you think of? When did you study in Germany?
: Increasing  Russian influence on Estonia would mean decreasing
: influence from other countries, not just Germany. Imagine
: dropping Swedish from Finland and introducing Russian as
: official language - no political consequences in the long run?

Swedish will once dropped off but it will not be replaced with russian
or any other. The other languages can hardly have more than
a semi-official status, among the others swedish in the future in Finland.

Of course we also have in Finland "brown tongued" swedish lickers who believe
that it is profitable some how to maintain this very, very expensive
bilingual system. The Federation of Finnishness has estimated that 
maintaining swedish as a second language cost ANNUALLY c. 2 billion finnish
marks! Already the economical arguments supprort the goal to drop it off
as soon as possible. Finland cannot afford such luxury, when even a rich
country like Sweden cannot afford it for their finnish speaking
minority. There is namely since 800 years a finnish speaking minority 
in Sweden but in Sweden thinking is more economical and it is said to
cost too much if they organize bilingual services like schools for the
finns in Sweden. So there is just two hight schools for the entire
finnish speaking minority in Sweden! No vocatinal schools, no universities,
no nursing schools, no technical schools. Finland has to follow their
excample and abolish similar schools away from Finland. It is too expensive,
Sweden could pay them, if they want and they have got the money.

: >
: >Russia can be used as an official language in local level in Estonia,
: >according to the existing language legislation (from 1989):

You are very liberal compared with Sweden for instance. They never would
accept that for the finnish speakers in Sweden.

: >
: >You must substantiate this claim with something, otherwise it is hard
: >to swallow: with monolingualism, there will be no attacks and counter-
: >attacks and anyone would be satisfied?
: 
: I am really surprised! How come you speak about MONOLINGUALISM?
: What does that denote? I have never expressed views that
: Russian should be banned completely (or completely from official
: communication)! I am trying to explain what could happen if
: Russian were given EXACTLY the same status as Estonian,
: and that such ideas are unrealistic in the political
: context of Estonia.

Like making finnish an official language of Sweden!
: 
: At present, yes, it looks like there are no attacks from either
: sides and people are generally satisfied.
: 
Like in Sweden.
: 
: BTW, I remember that even in "bilingual" Finland the coins carry text
: SOLELY in Finnish. What an offence!

Unfortunately not. Thanks to the Swedish Party in Finland they got through
a goal they have and in new coins there is also swedish text. Unfortunatelly.
It is a mistake which will be corrected when Swedish Party is throuwn away
from the Governement. Their man was also as a leader of Bank of Finland and
before he got fired among the other things he did that. Rolf Kullberg.

regards,
jarmo ryyti
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet