HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mad@spirit.spirit.clearpoint.com (Michael Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Favorite Bible Verses
Date: 9 Sep 92 15:31:59 GMT
	<8SEP199221092286@jane.uh.edu>
Organization: Walking Dead Man Bar and Grille


On 9 Sep 92 02:09:00 GMT, lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) said:

....

Tammy> I think it is important to note that Paul was a roman.  Romans
Tammy> had very different ideas than the ones Christ was espousing.
Tammy> This is why they feared him so much.

I don't think it was the ideas of Jesus that the Romans
hated/feared/??, so much as Jews and proto-Christians refusal to take
part in the state cult of the emperor.  The Romans were very tolerant
of divers religious practices in the lands they rules, so long as
practicionors of religion X participated in required sacrifices to the
god-emperor.  It is this refusal on the part of early Christians that
the Roman state equated with treason.

Tammy> Paul imposed a *VERY*
Tammy> roman view upon his cult of Christian teaching.  (There were many
Tammy> different groups claiming to be followers of Christ.  Pauls is the
Tammy> one that won out.  Mainly because he had a stronger internal
Tammy> "governmental" structure, much like the roman government it was
Tammy> patterned after.)

Converting Constantine didn't hurt either :^).

....

Tammy> Love to all,
Tammy> Tammy

Blessings and Peace

--
-mad

Michael A. Davis		mad@spirit.clearpoint.com

Clearpoint Research Corp. / 135 Parkwood Drive / Hopkinton, MA 01738
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Favorite Bible Verses
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:18:05 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <MAD.92Sep9103159@spirit.spirit.clearpoint.com> mad@spirit.spirit.clearpoint.com (Michael Davis) writes:
>On 9 Sep 92 02:09:00 GMT, lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) said:

[a discussion of early dealings between the Christians and the Romans...]

>I don't think it was the ideas of Jesus that the Romans
>hated/feared/??, so much as Jews and proto-Christians refusal to take
>part in the state cult of the emperor.  The Romans were very tolerant

Historically, until the conversion of Constantine, I don't think the Jews
were hated or feared much at all, probably just ignored as the small minority
group they were.

>Tammy> Love to all,
>Tammy> Tammy
>
>Blessings and Peace
>
>Michael A. Davis		mad@spirit.clearpoint.com

Again, to those interested, a very good book on the subject of early
Christian influence in creating the Holy Roman Empire:

"Pagans and Christians" by Matthew Lane Fox.

I haven't heard or read anything that counters the scholarly nature of
this book. And it was an enjoyable read.

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Different Types Of Wicca...???
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:42:21 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

donita@scic.intel.com (Donita Thompson) writes:

> If one never asks, one will never find out...
>
> Greetings! I am aware that there are many different types
> of Wicca. How many types are there and what are they?
>
> Also, I am leaning more towards the Dianic Wiccan.
> Can anyone recommend any books on the Dianic?
>
> Thanks,
> Donita

yup!  _to know_ by jade.  _ariadne's thread_ by shekhina mountainwater.
anything by z. budapest.  _women's rituals_ by barbara walker.  those are the
best books *I* have found so far, and i recommend _to know_ especially highly
to anyone just beginning their search into women's spirituality/dianic wicca.

                                        -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
 I wish her insight to battle love's blindness            ________
 Strength from the milk of human kindness         Silence \      / Action
 A safe place for all the pieces that scattered      =     \    /    =
 Learn to pretend there's more than love           Death    \  /    Life
                                  that matters               \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:05:21 GMT

In article <2AB3EE30.28437@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>Oh, please.  All I'm saying is that if we are turning out a large enough
>number of fucked-up people that we are forced to gear a substantial part
>of our society toward dealing with them, we should be looking for the
>root cause of the trouble.

That's wonderful, but it has no place in a discussion about what to do
AFTER they've been turned out.

No changes in the criminal justice system can keep people from
"entering" it.  If we're interested in reducing crime, we have
to look towards the causes, not our responses because said responses
are, by definition, too late.

>There are more black men who are crooks and criminals than in college.

Yup, and they're no different than white men in the same situation.

That "situation" isn't much related to the criminal justice system
and won't be affected by "rehabilitation" vs "fry them all" discussions.

>>	The best mankind can do is identify these individuals when 
>>possible and keep them seperated from us normal people, whom they will
>>always prey on when given the opportunity.
>
>You are making a serious mistake in separating criminals from so-called
>normal people (yourself, of course, included in the latter group, as
>usual).  WE are the "normal" people; we are also the crooks.

No, he's not making a mistake in separating them; they are different
in interesting ways.  Those differences aren't surprising given their
experiences, but they do exist.  Ignoring those difference won't make
them go away and trying to "undo" them is way too late, even if we
could/would.

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie (Lucifuge)
Subject: A little on self defense...
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 17:48:04 GMT

If you use a gun in any situation you are escalating that situation to a
lethal degree...that is, the chances of one party being killed or
seriously injured are greatly increased. If you have a gun you must be
prepared to use it. That means you must be prepared to kill another
human being, nothing less. The same applies to knives.

My advice. Take a martial art. Some (esp. aikido and t'ai chi) focus
heavily on spiritual development of a sort that would probably be of
interest to the pagan community. Some are purely practical (kempo, muay
thai, wing chun, boxing). All give you a better chance of taking down an
attacker without killing him, in my view a preferable solution both in
terms of the law and in terms of harmony.

Ollie
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: To Murray et al (was re: Jesus did not claim.....)
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Sep11.022422.29183@cbnewsm.cb.att.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:22:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.022422.29183@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> 
mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon) writes:
>Just to make something quite explicit -- the JPS _Tanakh_ is based on the
>Masoretic text.  You will need to go to Christian sources for a translation
>that uses other material (Septuagint, mostly, with some supplementation
>from other versions and where possible recent discoveries), at least if you
>want a one-volume version. 

Well, don't get to hung up on the word Masora, it really doesn't mean a
whole lot. What it means roughly is that this is the official redacted
compilation of all the scraps of Biblical material found, in Hebrew, not
Aramaic or Greek. The Septuagint is the Greek translation of this Hebrew
"Masora" that was used by the proto-Christians and is referenced in the
New Testament. So it is possible to think of the Septuagint as the
original, since this is most likely what Jesus had access to and is what
the proto-Christians had access to, but it is of course only a
translation of the Hebrew "Masora" and not a very good one at that. JPS
(Hebrew into English) was just completed over the last 40 years or so, 
so it represents a very modern translation of the Hebrew texts, ie up to 
date. The Septuagint (Hebrew to Greek) is some 2,000 years old.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: To Murray et al (was re: Jesus did not claim.....)
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:07:20 GMT

J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>The NAS is a word for word translation
>from the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts.  They use the manuscripts closest
>to the autographed (original) manuscripts.  It only comes in a new and

pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes in
>Autographed originals? Interesting concept, by whom?

J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>Webster: <Gk. autographos: autos,self+graphein, to write>  1. <deleted>
>2. A manuscript in the author's own handwriting.

Well, I suspect that if you actually met the people who wrote the
so-called originals, they would be embarased by what you are implying,
you see, they were only scribes. This material was oral first and put
into writing later on to freeze or preserve it. So since the copier and
printing press were not yet invented, all ancient manuscripts are in the
scribe's own handwriting, thus all autographia. This concept you are
trying to imply has meaning only in the modern world. Ancient
manuscripts are not written by an author, they are written by scribes
who are writing what is an oral tradition. No written material has ever
been attributed to Jesus or Moses, they probably could not write. This
would be insulting today, but not then, after all they were prophets not
mere scribes.
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Learning in North Carolina
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 04:47:18 GMT

In article <Ho6qqB2w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> morgan@brewich.hou.tx.us (Morgan ap Rhys) writes:
>Damon... I would suggest looking around in your bookstores for some or 
>all of the following books:
> 
>Wicca:  A guide for the solitary practiotioner, Scott Cunnigham
>   Llewellyn's Practical Magic Series

 Fluff. Sort of a "feel Good" Wicca for New Agers. No substance or depth.

>Celtic Magic (not sure of author or publisher)

D.J. Conway. This book is Wicca masquerading as Celtic mythology and
magic. It is VERY bad. Some of my ADF friends who do Celtic research at
the University did a review of it and it made them gag. Made me gag as
well. More fluff. This author also has a book called "Norse Magic" which
is as bad as this one or worse. Wicca masquerading (badly) as Nordic
paganism. Mistakes include the use of the Hermetic elements as Celtic or
Nordic when neither group used either, Casting Circles, etc. Standard
Generic Wicca.

>tbe best sources are B. Daltons, Waldenbooks, and the Book Stop.  Being 
>national chains and not small independent stores, they have more freedom 
>to carry material such as this, even in Jim and Tammy Fay country...

 That's funny. The first two stores you list censor themselves. Don't
expect to find too many books with any depth through them. You have to go
to a pagan or occult book store or some other small store to get any good
books. These stores don't want to cause controversy and get picketed.

Wassail,
Grendel

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:13:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.235412.3320@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner) writes...
>In article <12SEP199213581699@rosie.uh.edu>, lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy
>Stark Blandino) writes:
> 
>|> I can understand this, I don't like it, but I understand it.

..stuff deleted.....


>|> I feel however, that if we cannot display our beliefs on our
>|> official heraldry then no one else should either.  
>|> 
> 
>|> Barring any change consider this.  One knight wanted to put
>|> his initials on his official symbol.  Therefore he devised
>|> the background such that in abstract it was an M.  He then
>|> put a double headed axe on top to form a T.  Tarl Mapt.
>|> We could do the same thing.  We have symbols and symbolism
>|> that they don't know, don't recognize, or think are 
>|> different from what they really are.
> 
>At this point your posting is getting seriously paranoid.

Why do you say that?  It was not intended to be paranoid.  I was
a statement of fact.  Hell, most "Christian" types don't know much
about their own religion much less ours.  I was only stating that
those pagans in the SCA could use other, not so well known, 
symbols to display what they desire.

>........The art of
>heraldry has lots and lots of rules that when taken out of context
>appear unfair, but they are not made to "get" people.  They come from
>the historical rules of heraldry from the middle ages, and since the SCA
>is interested in medieval recreation it only makes sense that they use
>medieval rules.
That is why my friend (society name Tarl) was not allowed to use
his initials.  So he found another way of doing it.  I was attempting
to show how you can do what you want within the confines of
heraldic rules, albiet symbolically.

> 
>					Paul Wayner
> 

Paul, why have you taken up a position opposite me?  We are on the
same side.  I understand why the SCA has chosen to do what they
do.  I don't have to like it, but if I want to play their game
I have to play by their rules.  I was simply explaining some options
to people who wanted to play the SCA's game despite the rules.
I understand the rules of heraldry.  I was trying to help those
who don't.

I am not paranoid and I am not bitching and I am not out to
change the world, only help all of us live a little better and
a little closer in it.

Blessed Be,
Tammy
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <flame risk HIGH>
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:41:11 GMT
Organization: Black Oak Coven

'Sokay!  Your postings did get here, somewhat after I sent mine out.
Were I thee, however, I'd send the Sappho article again, just to be
certain.  Not to worry, I wasn't offended.  Take care of yourself.

B*B
	- Leigh Ann

----------------
Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
CoG #151E
"Take no scorn to wear the Horn; it was the Crest when you were born!"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pmw2c@csissun14.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun14.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 05:34:38 GMT

In article <14SEP199218134657@rosie.uh.edu>, lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy
Stark Blandino) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep12.235412.3320@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner) writes...
|> >In article <12SEP199213581699@rosie.uh.edu>, lib1p@rosie.uh.edu
(Tammy
|> >Stark Blandino) writes:
|> >|> We have symbols and symbolism
|> >|> that they don't know, don't recognize, or think are 
|> >|> different from what they really are.
|> > 
|> >At this point your posting is getting seriously paranoid.
|> 
|> Why do you say that?  It was not intended to be paranoid.  I was
|> a statement of fact.  Hell, most "Christian" types don't know much
|> about their own religion much less ours.  I was only stating that
|> those pagans in the SCA could use other, not so well known, 
|> symbols to display what they desire.

I apoligize for my previous posting Tammy, because after reading the
last posting I realize that your postion is very reasonable.  I did not
mean to offend or insult.  You suggestion of using alternative pagan
symbols is a good one.  I misunderstood the first time when you refered
to "We have symbols and symbolism that they don't know, don't recognize,
or think are different..", that smacked of paranoia because it sounds
like you want to sneak something past "them", meaning the rest of the
SCA.  That isn't necessary, since only the pentagram and swastika are
banned, so any other pagan symbol is fine.  

					Paul Wayner
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: men's spirituality (was Re: New Pagans and Reading)
Keywords: do it thineself
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:45:08 GMT

In article <iJBsqB3w165w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>
>well, from where i stand, men can be as sacred and holy as they want.  but if
>there are to be men's mysteries, MEN have to create and support them.  i;m sure
>not going to.  what do i know of maleness?  what does starhawk know of
>maleness?  most religions are kept going by women, but are run by men and are
>in worship of male gods.  wicca and dianism haev a goddess, and are most likely
>STILL kept going by women.  so, a female focus is unsurprising, especially
>since there are no artificial structures to keep women out of the power
>structure.  me, i don't CARE about maleness, men's mysteries, gods, priests,
>high priests, heterosexual symbolism or great rites, phallic symbols, male
>initiation, etc.  not my thing, not my spirituality, doesn't move me at all.  i
>have nothgin against YOU doing it, in fact i think the fact taht men are
>acquiring mysteries after all this time is rather nice, but i'm not doign it
>for you.  then they woudl be ailsa's mysteries.
>
>people seem to overlook the fact that WOMEN are creating women's mysteries.
>women are creating women's spiritualiy.  a lot of work and love and creativity
>and time has gone into the quest, and it is OUR grail we are seeking.  we are
>not doing spirituality for you, we are doing it for us.  when i write we
>ritual, i write one that moves me, that makes ME feel closer to the divine.

I must really be uninformed. I have understood that the whole God/Goddess
thing stemmed from our very early experiments with religion, and, at least
in the Celtic traditions, there was a clear definition between the Horned
God and the Goddess (don't know about Her horns and don't want to offend
by only referring to fertility). But that they realized that the two were
congruent. Anyway, I didn't realize that all this Mysteries stuff (men's
and women's) was all new creations. I'd have sworn they were born out of
ancient mysteries, and that the women's stuff was so pronounced simply
because of a long needed recognition of women as equal partners in the
overall scheme of things.

I guess if it has so much to do with sex, that's why I missed it. I'm not
to up on Tantric stuff. I tend to view sex as much more personal than to
involve it in any religion. Maybe I'm too conservative (if my father could
only hear me now <grin>).

Anyway, thanks for your reply. It's given me something to think about, and
I may be beginning to understand whythe one session I went to was such a
debacle.

Bb,

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Dudleytown Conn
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 16:23:52 GMT

In article <BuBwsw.AEu@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v102qqq5@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu 
(HIGH PRIESTESS) writes:

[ lots o' stuff about Weird Goings On (tm) in Dudleytown ]

> Where are these Dudley ancestors.....any Dudleytown experiences?
> Please respond via E-mail  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
>                                High Priestess

  Follow up via E-mail?  Cryminies -- put this out for all of
us to read !!

  Yes, of course I'm skeptical, but I'm still curious and
interested ... anyways, the population of a town being
driven out by ghosts is no worse than me having mashmallow
roasts with the Fey (ok, no -- they don't _REALLY_ eat
marshmallows.)

  Sounds like you've heard a little about it yourself, HP,
(do you mind being abbreviated?) share! share! share!

  Blessed be, Ciaran.

  $uslinit; include oblig.sig <<
  "...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
   cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy."  -- Sappho >>
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <was: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:18:02 GMT

I just found something interesting that might add something to this
Baphomet thang.  It's from Barbara Walker (I know), but I thought it was
a novel idea.

Pg. 53 of her book _The Secrets of the Tarot_:

But the Templars, living among Mohammedans, would certainly have known
how to pronounce Mohammed's name.  An alternative theory derived
Baphomet from the Greek Baphe Metis, "Baptism of Metis," another name
for the Lady Wisdom -- the same Gnostic Goddess called Sophia in eastern
Europe, Sapientia in Rome, Shekina by Spanish-Jewish Cabalists, anbd
Fatima by Sufi and Shi'ite "poets of love." 

If anyone else knows about this or has heard proof for or against . . .

Blessings,
Janis
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: to someone named Brett
Date: 11 Sep 92 05:48:12 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

This is in response to someone named Brett who mailed me and asked
about the owl bitmap that I have so far failed to post through not
knowing what size chunks I should cut it into (one hell of a sentence,
eh?  Oh, christ, I already sound Canadian . . . ). 

Hon, the bitmap I sent you bounced back to me!  Are there any other
e-mail addresses I can send to you at?

If you can hold out, do so.  I'm going to findout what the max size is
for something in a bit, and post it then.

Blessings,
Janis