From: rdh@veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Subject: Re: feminism callous to men's oppression?  (was: draft issue)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: VERITAS Software
Date: 20 Aug 92 04:05:44 GMT

In article <CINDY.92Aug12120346@meshugge.media.mit.edu> uunet!mailrus!gatech!meshugge.media.mit.edu!cindy@ncar.ucar.EDU (Cindy Blank-Edelman) writes:
>
>>     On the whole, does feminism concern itself in any way with men's
>>     issues?
>
>>     Do feminist women feel any obligation or willingness whatsoever to
>>     assist men in dealing with their issues in exchange for the help
>>     they ask of men?
>
>First, I, for one, apologize if anything I have said in these
>discussions has been patronizing or insensitive.  ...

It is so nice to be heard!  Thank you.  I don't recall seeing anything
like that from you (but if you do, you'll probably be the first to
know ;^)

>In answer to your questions:
>
>I believe that feminism is, and should be, concerned with issues as
>they relate to and affect women.  That doesn't mean that those same
>issues won't affect men, it just means that efforts are focussed on
>behalf of women.
>
>I, personally, do feel that I should support men in dealing with
>their issues, providing that their issues do not deny me my rights as
>a woman.  Like I do with other groups where I am not a member
>(African-Americans, gays and lesbians, etc.), I think that my primary
>responsibility is to listen and try to understand men's concerns.  I
>also try to work on my personal interactions with men.  I do not
>think I must give up feminism in favor of a "human" movement, nor
>would I ask that men give up a "men's movement".

Nor would I.

>I think the main problem is one of communication.  When men talk to
>me about their concerns or issues (and in my entire life that has
>only happened on soc.feminism), I hear them expecting me to give up
>my issues because theirs are the *real* issues.  I hear them blaming
>me for not working on their issues.  (Whether or not this is what
>they are trying to say, this is what I hear.)

I get brought up short on this every once in a while.  I don't know
why it is so difficult for me to keep this straight.  Even though I'm
aware that "my" issues are not necessarily the only ones that are
"real," I still find that I often lapse into conveniently thinking
that if other people could only see things as I see them, it would be
so much better for them, as well as for me.  I find that even the way
I concieve of issues at times can omit or discount other perspectives.

Welcome to the human race I guess.  ;^|

My impresson is that most men aren't even aware that that they filter
in this way, let alone the extent to which they do it.  Intellectual
speculation can be a great way to escape from emotional pain, and it
seems to me that when you scratch a man in this culture, a lot of pain
boils out.  If most men are walking bundles of unresolved emotional
pain, then their natural reaction will be to apply what skills they
have toward dealing it whenever it comes to their attention.  But
having a consistent mental map of the problem is not the same as being
in touch with the underlying issues, which are always driven by human
feelings.  Getting through painful emotions is something that most men
in this culture are taught never do, and nevermind how to go about it.

The main skills that are reinforced in men for coping with life:
suppression, denial, passionate quest, forceful attack, and
intellectual problem solving, do little to resolve emotional pain.
Those skills just push the pain away.  Anything that confronts a man's
filtering process threatens to activate his pain, and when so
confronted, he'll tend to apply the skills that he has.  If that means
dismissing you or blaming you for activating the pain that he isn't
prepared to cope with, that's what he'll do.  That's the best he _can_
do.  That's what I _still_ tend to do unless I'm on my toes.

> ... This all makes me very confused, because I still feel oppressed
>as a woman.  *I am not secure enough with my place in the world to
>help fix men's place*.  Not right now.  I will support them.  But I
>am still realizing the issues that face me, and I have to get through
>that first.

It can be awfully hard to support someone when their issues aren't
even clear to them, let alone to you.

>All this being said, I strongly believe that oppressed groups of
>people have an extra responsibility to work against the oppression of
>others, because we know how oppression feels, too.  This feeling is
>actually from my Jewish background, which has taught me to "be kind
>to the stranger, because you too were strangers in the land of
>Egypt."
>
>All I ask is to be able to figure out my own stuff first.  And I
>don't know how long that will take.
>
>--Cindy Blank-Edelman

Fair enough.  That's all I'm asking for as well.

-r

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