HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Wednesday, 23 Dec 1992 06:50:45 EST
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: A blast from the past

Here is part of a news story I clipped from a March 3, 1988 news-
paper.  It seems relevant to a current discussion:

     "An abortion rights activist who got a one-year suspended sen-
tence for making false bomb threats to make the pro-life movement
look bad got a 'light' sentence, said a California pro-life leader.

     "Susan Carpenter-McMillan, president of the Right to Life League
of Southern California, made her comments in a telephone interview
two weeks after Frank Mendiola, 30, was sentenced Feb. 10 after
pleading guilty in Los Angeles Superior Court to three counts of
telephoning false bomb threats.

     "Mendiola, a frequent speaker for abortion rights groups in
California and Washington, made the false threats to a newspaper,
women's groups and police.  The calls, court records said, were among
several made anonymously in 1986 from someone claiming to be with the
Army of God, an anti-abortion group, and saying he had planted bombs
in abortion clinics and offices and homes of people who ran them.

     "Mendiola, while in jail awaiting sentencing, told the Los
Angeles Times that he telephoned false bomb threats to 'have you
people, the media, come done with a harder line on those people who
are harassing the clinics.'"
-------
Marty Helgesen
Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu

"Experience beats in vain upon a congenital progressive."
        --  C. S. Lewis
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Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 09:16:37 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: That unnamed subject
              (Dec 23,  7:22pm)

Fred, your post strikes a responsive chord with me.  If it is
demostrated that the existence of a 'code of moral belief' in the
school leads to more success in the students, more collegiality in the
teachers, more 'belonging' in the students, then why is our society wo
unwilling to accept the need for teaching moral values in the public
schools.  Are the benders and shapers so blind that they cannot see,
or are they more interested in theoretical individual 'freedom' than
they are in the preservation of our country.  For, like it or n, if we
continue the route of 'me first', our country will be destroyed from
within in two or three more generations, and will turn into a Bosnia-
Hertzogovia of groups of armed wars holding the country hostage
because no one is willing to give of themselves for the benefit of
society as a whole.  Extereme view maybe, but the tres already there
in the regionalism and factionalism of the various ethnic groups in
our contry.  They do not look on themselves as Americans, but rather
Mexican-Americans, Asian-Americans, Pacific-Americans or
Italian-Americans.  This divisivness is the seed which, watered by the
rain of self-interest, will grow into revolution.

Putting that all aside for a few days, may the love of God that
manifested in the incarnation be with you and yours.      Len Howard
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From: zerucha@shell.portal.com (Thomas E Zerucha)
Subject: Re: Vatican on Internet???
Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 00:19:29 GMT

Actually, C.S. Lewis discussed it in one of his books (I don't recall the
name at the moment) - He wrote scienece fiction too and that was part
of the article (Out of the Silent Planet / Perelandra / That Hideous Strength
is the trilogy).
It depends on the "state of grace" of the ETs in question:
1. They may be unfallen, so redemption, and therefore sacrements to that
  end are unnecessary (baptism?).  For others, I am not sure (should I take
  "panis angelicus" literally?).
2. They may be fallen, but with the possibility of redemption.  The redemptive
  act for them may or may not have happened.  Perhaps it is ironic that this
  question be asked on the day we commemorate our redemption.  I can't say
  if our redemption would apply in their case.
3. They may be fallen and unredeemable (like the demons).  In that case they
  cannot recieve sacremental grace.

Interestingly enough, I remember a non-christian asking why christians didn't
believe in intelligent life other than the human race.  I replied that we do
believe in extra-human intelligence (besides God himself): Angels and Demons.

---
zerucha@shell.portal.com - main email address
zerucha@fim001.ets.ford.com - work address
Thomas Zerucha / 24075 Lee Baker / Southfield MI 48075 - hardcopy
(313)594-4941 - work phone
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:14:40 -0800
From:         John Weitzel <weitzel@CIRRUS.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>

Hello,
My name is John L Weitzel and I am currently employed as a counselor
for the School of Engineering at UCLA.  I was born, raised, and continue
to practice the Catholic faith.  I attended high school and college
seminaries in Southern California for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

My main concern, at this point, deals with the quality of Catholic
Secondary Education.  There are many studies which show that academically
the Catholic Educational system is far superior to that of the American
Public Educational Systems.  My question does not have to do with the quality
of the education of science, math, arts and humanities, and other such areas,
but with basic Catholic Doctrine.  In local Catholic high schools, graduates
have virtually no idea what is meant by  such concepts as trinity,
transubstantiation, salvation, or could not list 1/2 of the books of the
New Testament, let alone the Old Testament.  These individuals are the ones
I see now attending Evangelical Churches.  I have many close friends who are
Evangelical brethren, but they have a coherent understanding of the Bible,
salvation, and doctrine.  My falling away Catholic friends, as well as
friends who are practicing, have little idea about the depth of history,
coherence, and basic doctrine of the Catholic Church.  Individuals graduating
from Evangelical High Schools seem to know more about Catholic Theology than
most Catholics from so-called Catholic High Schools.  I do not think that all
Catholics need to understand Aquinas, Augustine, and Borromeo in depth, but
do you not think that we should all know why we are Catholic, how we are saved,
and how to discuss such with our seperated brethren?

Thanks for your response.

Merry Christmas
and
May God Bless America
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 08:37:00 EST
From:         "Alfred S. Chavez" <achavez@UMSA.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Financing education (was Queens School Board

Another question in this debate on private vs. public schooling: Frequently
one hears that the success of parochial schools has more to do with the
selectivity of students than with any inherent difference in approach,
philosophy, and methods.  Moreover, parochial schools reject the hard
cases--learning disabled, and other children whose home lives or other
factors render them dysfunctional in the more regimented parochial system.

How does one answer these charges?  Has anyone done any work to prove or
disprove the allegation?
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Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1993 13:47:06 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body",

                    Thursday, January 7, 1993
                      Raymond of Penyafort

I John 4:19-5:4             Psalm 72            Luke 4:14-22

                        ARE YOU LOVING?

"The commandment we have from Him is this: whoever loves God must also love
 his brother." --I John 4:21

Most people like to think of themselves as loving others.  But are we truly
loving or just deceiving ourselves?  We are loving if:

    1) we are "beloved", if we have first received God's love (I Jn 4:19).
    2) we love God with all our hearts (I Jn 5:2; Mt 22:37).
    3) we obey God's commandments (I Jn 5:3).
    4) we love ourselves (Mt 22:39).
    5) we love the brothers and sisters we see in our everyday life (I Jn 4:20).
    6) we love our enemies (Mt 5:44).
    7) the Spirit has poured out love in our hearts (Rm 5:5).

When we see what it means to be loving, we realize that not so many people are
loving.  Loving is not something we can do by our own power.  We can't "make
love."  Loving is a gift, freely given by God to those willing to receive it.

Open your best Christmas gift, the gift of love, the gift of God, Who is Love
(I Jn 4:16).


Prayer:  Father, beginning this Christmas season, may I love those I have
         never loved before.

Promise: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me; therefore He has anointed Me.  He
          has sent Me to bring glad tidings to the poor, to proclaim liberty
          to captives." --Lk 4:18

Praise:  Raymond of Penyafort served and loved the Pope, his religious order,
         and his brothers and sisters in Christ.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
 Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
 Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
               Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
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Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 13:10:11 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Jan 8

                    Friday, January 8, 1993

I John 5:5-13               Psalm 147           Luke 5:12-16

                           ONLY JESUS

"God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." --I John 5:11

Some people maintain there are many ways to God, and Jesus may be the best
Way.  However, Jesus did not call Himself the best Way but _the_ Way, the
only Way to the Father (Jn 14:6).  "The testimony is this: God gave us eternal
life, and this life is in His Son.  Whoever possesses the Son possesses life;
whoever does not possess the Son of God does not possess life" (I Jn 5:11-12).
God's life is in Jesus His Son, and only in His Son.  "Through Him all things
came into being, and apart from Him nothing came to be" (Jn 1:3).  Jesus
Christ is "our only Master and Lord" (Jude 4).  "There is no salvation in
anyone else, for there is no other name in the whole world given to men by
which we are to be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Any saving work in the world, even in the lives of those who haven't heard
the gospel, is done by Jesus.  Therefore, we exist to evangelize, to tell the
world about Jesus.  We want "to bring all things in the heavens and on earth
into one under Christ's headship" (Eph 1:10).  Because Jesus is the only Way,
Truth, Life, Savior, Lord, and God, we must be His witnesses even to the ends
of the earth (Acts 1:8).


Prayer:  Father, on these last few days of the Christmas season, may I give
         others Christmas by giving them Christ.

Promise: "Jesus stretched out His hand to touch him and said, `I do will it.
          Be cured.'  Immediately the leprosy left him." --Lk 5:13

Praise:  Beverly took the good news of Jesus to India.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
 Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
 Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
               Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
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Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 09:37:33 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Contributions

On Dec 30,  9:17am, DICK HAROLD wrote:
} Subject: Re: contributions
}
} I remember, years ago in the 50s when I got my first job away from home,
} thinking one Sunday when I put in my "offering" of a dollar that it was
} about time I squeezed a little more out of my pocket each Sunday.  I felt that
} I could at least come up with an amount equal to what I spent each week on
} beer and drinks.  While I make no claim of being a big contributor, a dollar
} these days sounds a bit like a dime in the 50s.
        [... beautiful story deleted...]
}-- End of excerpt from DICK HAROLD

Dick,
        Thanks for the story, it was beautiful.

        Back in LA, the Sacrificial Giving program focused on three things
we can give back to God for all He's done: time, talents, and treasure.
I certainly always gave of my time but it took a while for me to work
my way up to giving of my treasure first, before my other 'needs'.
I'm glad the bishops spent some time on this issue at their recent
meeting.

GZ



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
From: pss@s-a.amtp.liv.ac.uk (Patrick Spencer)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Vatican II and Eng Lit
Keywords: Vatican II
Date: 31 Dec 92 15:41:34 GMT
Organization: DAMTP, University of Liverpool

My wife is doing an Eng Lit PhD on the effect of Vatican II on the Catholic Novel.
Anyone have any comments/thoughts on the Council, Catholic novel(ist)s, or what's happened to the Church in the last 35 years, please let us know.

Paddy and Dorothy Spencer.

pss@uxb.liv.ac.uk
dfs@uxb.lic.ac.uk
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X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"CATHOLIC@AMERICAN.EDU"
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:55:47 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Catholic theological competency

Stephen Barr <15942@BRAHMS.UDEL.EDU> writes:
>    Very good, Martha. But we should also keep in mind
>that the Church teaches that some acts are intrinsically
>immoral, and therefore are *always* wrong whetever
>their consequences. For example: the deliberate taking
>of an innocent human life, adultery, fornication,
>blasphemy,etc. That is, some rules are in fact absolute.
>As you say, some acts may be moral or not depending on
>circumstances, consequences, etc. For them, rules that
>cover every case are hard to formulate. As St. Augustine
>said "love and do what yoyu will". Or St, Paul:
>"to the pure all things are pure". But though some
>rules admit of exceptions, and Christian morality is more
>than an outward adherence to rules, it is wrong to
>go to the other extreme and say that all rules have
>exceptions, or that we are not bound by rules. Steve.

Interesting post, Steve, my question is how do we determine
whose rules rule. While we may live by a set of Christian
rules, should we attempt to "conform" others to our rules?
An example would be multiple spouses, we even have secular laws
prohibiting this lifestyle, whereas in others societies, this
is perfectly acceptable. Is it a matter of how "offensive" it
is to us before we insist on others conforming to our rules?

Oh, well, this is undoubtedly my last post of the year, so Merry
Christmas to all and Happy New Year.
(If the news that I won't be posting again until next year brings
a smile to your face, think of it as an early Christmas present:-)-J.J.
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 11:15:20 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Myth exposed!!!

john ocallaghan <jocallag@OVID.HELIOS.ND.EDU> writes:
>Really J.J., there are people trained to help you with this paranoia. ;-)
>John
Well, I admit I was just having some "fun" in this "myth exposed!!!"
thread, but seeing as how you omitted your "Peace and happy advent",
I'm beginning to wonder if I really pissed you off:-) -J.J.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: nuge@ct.med.ge.com (James A. Nugent)
Subject: Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Milwaukee, WI
	<1992Dec24.010301.6217@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 23:11:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.010301.6217@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer) writes:

> >On Fri, 4 Dec 1992 19:59:58 CST "Edward J. Branley"
> ><elendil@SEASHELL.MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US> said:
> >
> >> We had Kathleen baptized in the hospital, and followed that up with
> >> a formal christening in the Church a couple of months after she got
> >> out of the hospital.
> >
> >She was baptised twice?

> No. Baptism may be conferred only once. Even if one were to pour
> water over a previously baptized person and pronounce the proper
> sacramental formula, this would not be a sacrament. What you are
> describing is commonly known as "supplying the ceremonies." That is,
> all the various rites normally performed during baptism are carried
> out, except for the baptism itself. This would include profession of
> faith and baptismal promises by the parents and godparents,
> anointing with the oil of catechumens and chrism, lighting of the
> baptismal candle, etc.

        This is exactly what happened with our youngest child. I
baptized him in the hospital nursery, immediately before he was
transferred by ambulance to a another hospital with a neonatal ICU.

        A ceremony was performed later in church, but it did not
include the actual baptism. His batism certificate shows that date,
time, and place (Elmbrook hospital) of the origianal bapism, and lists
my name as the one who performed it.
--
Jim Nugent

nuge@ct.med.ge.com

nugentj@ct.med.ge.com
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 19:49:43 EST
From: <REEVESJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Devotion to Mary

Regarding the question about St. Louis de Montfort's
"True Devotion to Mary":many long time Catholics find it
difficult to read and accept. Those who have persevered
and prayed and finally became "slaves" of Mary have led
peaceful and exemplary lives. Two examples are FRANK DUFF
who founded the LEGION of Mary and Edel Quinn as legionary
of Mary led a very heroic life in Africa.  There are simpler
books dealing with TRUE DEVOTION that might help the beginner.
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 08:00:46 -0600
From:         Joel Neisen <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Financing education (was Queens School Board

> philosophy, and methods.  Moreover, parochial schools reject the hard
> cases--learning disabled, and other children whose home lives or other
> factors render them dysfunctional in the more regimented parochial system.
>
>How does one answer these charges?  Has anyone done any work to prove or
> disprove the allegation?


My understanding (3 of my meighbors are publich school teachers) is that
especially in discipline cases, the principal will recommend to the parents
that the child be sent to a private school (religious and otherwise)
where the school staff has more lattitude in discipline than the
public school systems.  Of course, private schools do retain the
ability to deny an application, whereas the public schools do not.

I don't know exactly what you mean by factors that "render them disfunctional".
However I was most surprised to learn that several families who have children
enrolled in our parochial school are too poor to afford Christmas presents
for their children, and in some cases afford a 'decent' meal for
Christmas.     The area I live in is not generally poor either,
mainly middle and upper-middle class suburbia.

Have a Merry and Blessed Christmas

joel
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: rjtatz@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Robert J Tatz)
Subject: Re: contributions
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 21:03:45 GMT

Hmm, I hadn't thought of two envelopes.  While I know what Fred points
out about percentages is true, I hate to see people pointing out "I
saw someone put in only one dollar".  My wife and I often go to different
Masses since we have eight children.  She often writes a check so I let
one of the kids put in a dollar when I go (at least they put in something).
I often wonder if others notice.  Also what if someone is out of work?
My point being it's difficult to judge appearances.  I agree totally
that all of us must be more generous.

Happy New Year,
Bob

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: stabosz@chopin.udel.edu (Rae Stabosz)
Subject: wanted, info on "The Pope Speaks"
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:51:30 GMT

I can't seem to find a listing for the periodical "The Pope Speaks" on
the list of Catholic periodicals that Gordon drew up.  I think it might
be on an updated list which I've misfiled.

Can anybody supply me with information on ordering it?  Thanks.

Rae

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 00:49:53 -0500
Reply-To:     esler@apollo.hp.com
From:         esler@APOLLO.HP.COM
Subject:      Re: Vatican II and Eng Lit

"Edward J. Branley" writes:
    >
    > Gee, the only novelist that I can say I know for sure is Catholic is
 Andrew
    > Greeley, and I don't know if I'd want to offer him as an example... <g>.

Ed,
   one of the great Catholic novelists of recent years lived his life
in your neck of the woods: Walker Percy, who resided in Covington,
until his recent death.

   As for Greeley, I'm not sure even he would call himself a novelist.
I think he regards his stories as parables.

--
Kevin Esler //hewlett-packard/cso/stg/std/clo/mll (MA Language Lab)
esler@apollo.hp.com   (508) 436-5979
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: nuge@ct.med.ge.com (James A. Nugent)
Subject: Re: Forwarded mail, and comments
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Milwaukee, WI
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 21:39:28 GMT

In article <NUGE.92Dec31152805@popeye.ct.med.ge.com>
nuge@ct.med.ge.com (James A. Nugent) writes:

>         What you really need to find is a Program for outreach to
> inactive/alienated catholics. These programs are run by a combination
> of priests and lay peopele (many of whom were themselves alienated at
> one time) who will be good at listening and empathizing, and easing
> the healing process. These people are themselves active Catholics, and
> their goal is to facilitate coming back into the church. Because
> divorce is a common theme with Catholics who have become alienated,
> there is always a team member who is REALLY KNOWLEDGEABLE about
> options open to people in situations like yours.

        I forgot to point out: This is generally NOT the same thing as
"Separated and Divorced Catholics." (SDC). Though not divorced myself,
I had brief contact with that organization, and suspect that it would
not be helpful for you; the one I expereinced tended to be just like a
social club with the goal of matching up its members with new
partners.  Your mileage may vary; some SDC chapters may be better than
others.

	What you really want is outreach to inactive Catholics.
--
Jim Nugent

nuge@ct.med.ge.com

nugentj@ct.med.ge.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic