From: cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker)
Subject: Re: The Nurturing Network 1-800-TNN-4MOM
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 01:33:53 GMT

forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:

Fine, Forgach.  I am glad that you have shown me the depths to which
you'll sink, the hatefulness you'll spew to further your own agenda.
Never once have I given you a single indication to think I was a
liar.  We have exchanged civil email in the past.  Never once have
you questioned me on a matter of fact, only opinion.

But when I point out an ugly truth to you (that many pro-"life"rs are
interested in NOTHING BUT stopping abortions, they couldn't care less
what happens to the baby that will be born) instead of facing it,
you smugly assert that I am either a liar or a blithering fool.  I
saw you rise up in anger when someone hinted that Marilyn Quayle didn't
have a mind of her own, yet in MY case, when you CLEARLY know that I am
no babe-in-the-woods, you glibly assert that I hadn't the slightest
clue about reality, that I was being led by the nose, and that I continue
to be blissfully ignorant of what happened to this very day.

When your "loving" beliefs cause you to do such spiteful and nasty
things, I'd say it's clearly time to reexamine some aspect of the
situation.

Your article here says far more about your lack of concern for
other women in difficult situations than _I_ ever could.

>From article <91ayc5f@rpi.edu>, by cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker):
>> forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>> 
>>>No, Linda.  They've been talking the talk, but they haven't been
>>>walking the walk.   Walk into ANY, and I mean ANY abortion alternative
>>>organization ANYWHERE, and you will not find even one pro-"choicer" among
>>>them.  It always has been and always will be the pro-lifers who provide any
>>>non-abortive help to pregnant women in trouble.
>> 
>> Then you are calling me a liar, Ms. Forgach.  

>Could be.  

Really, this is all I needed to hear.  It gives me no great satisfaction
that I anticipated this response.  I had hoped that, since we have 
spoken of things other than abortion and respected each others' 
opinion, you would perhaps give me the benefit of the doubt.  But
you are no better than Chaney in your assumption that this is a war,
and any hateful and vicious thing you do is OK, because you have a
Higher Calling.

But I will respond to the rest of this article for the benefit of
others out there.

>In your entire story below, you neglected to give any indication
>of even what YEAR it takes place.   

Garbage, Suzanne.  This was posted TO YOU, and you KNOW what year
it was.

>Makes a big difference.  Movements mature.

I see.  So you are saying that the people who have been protesting
abrtions for twenty years only RECENTLY got the idea to actually
help women with their babies.  Pretty bad reflection on your
movement, wouldn't you say?

>So tell me, was it a simple oversight, or a lie by ommission?  

Difficult as it is for you to choke on, Forgach, my story is the
truth.

>You also make it
>clear that you _never_ actually asked an abortion alternative agency for help!
>You simply got into one 10 minute discussion with some Right-To-Life debators
>at a campus abortion debate.  

I couldn't FIND an "abortion alternative agency", Suzanne.  THAT'S WHY
I ASKED THE RIGHT-TO-LIFERS IF THEY KNEW OF ONE.  They didn't.  Not
one of them.  No one even offered to make a phone call for me to get
more information.  So much for their much-vaunted concern for the
woman involved.

>Hardly the way to seriously seek prenatal aid, Cathi.

Forgach, you don't have a festering clue what I did to "seriously
seek prenatal aid".  I was on the phone every day for months looking
for help.  Much as you've convinced yourself that pro-choice people
hate their children and desire only pain and suffering for them,
the truth is that I am a better person for having the opportunity
to say "I choose this child."  Once the choice was made, I did
everything possible to ensure that my child would have the best
that we could provide for it, a goal that continues to this day.

>> I have posted many
>> times that when _I_ was facing a crisis pregnancy, I went to a debate
>> that featured the president of the local RTL chapter in a large city.
>> I approached him, and other pro-"life" people after the debate, asking
>> about where I might obtain pregnancy help.  Since I had identified
>> myself as pro-choice, they were all quite eager to do their Good Deed
>> for the day and "talk me out of getting an abortion".  Fairly
>> ridiculous, as I was about five months at the time and showing quite
>> a bit.  When I told them I had no intention of having an abortion,
>> they eagerly began telling me about adoption agencies in the area.
>> When I informed them that I was most certainly NOT considering adoption,
>> they completely lost interest, to the point of wandering away.  When
>> I asked again about pregnancy help (after following them), the most
>> concrete answer I received was "Well, you might try your church."
>> They didn't bother to ask if I attended church, and they ignored me
>> thereafter.


>You might have tried the yellow pages for the local abortion altnerative
>agencies.  

My yellow pages didn't HAVE an abortion alternative agency category.
Everything was lumped together under "clinics".  There were no ads
making it clear that all the place wanted to do was help women continue
their pregnancies.

>Surely you use yellow pages all the time.   

You're so cute when you're being snide and condescending.

>Debators at a campus debate is weird place to look for prenatal help.   

I had already looked everywhere else I could think of.  Your (possibly
not yet founded at the time) crisis pregnancy centers were hardly
advertising in the campus paper or handing out leaflets.

And, silly me, I had figured that the group MOST likely to know where
help was would be pro-"life"rs.

I know better now.

>I think you went with a
>chip on your shoulder already.   Looking for a fight.

You simply don't think, Forgach.  If you see something that doesn't 
fit into your well-crafted worldview, you attack with all the compassion
and thought of a rabid vampire bat.

>> I must say, I was a bit stricken by this.  A member of NOW noticed
>> me standing by myself, 

>Obviously Cathi, she'd already eavesdropped on your entire conversation.

Why Forgach, don't you have the guts to come right out and say you
think I'm an idiot?  Or blind?  Or hysterical?

These people had no knowledge of my conversation with the pro-"life"rs.
As hard as it is for you to stomach, Forgach, they were JUST BEING
NICE.  Something you apparently don't have a lot of experience with.

>She approached you entirely aware of what had just gone on and decided to
>turn the situation to her advantage - recruiting you into activism.

Well gosh, Forgach, you were THERE?  IN THE ROOM?

AND YOU DIDN'T HELP ME EITHER????????????????

>She played you like a fiddle, Cathi.

Your implication that I am an idiot grows no more amusing on subsequent
repetition.

>> and walked up and congratulated me on my
>> pregnancy.  I began confiding in her about the trouble I was having,
>> and was soon surrounded by a sympathetic crowd of feminists.  One
>> quickly offered baby furniture and clothes, others began telling me
>> about medical care available.  They offered phone numbers and advice.
>> One NOW member even bent the rules of a local congressman's phone
>> bank to allow me to make the calls from home after my child was born, 
>> thus providing me with a crucial source of income at a time when I
>> was unable to work elsewhere.  All the local NOW members I met, from
>> grandmothers to lesbians, were a constant source of support to me
>> at a difficult time.  Not a single one ever questioned my decision
>> to give birth.

>Not to your face, of course not, but many of them had aborted their own
>children under even less difficult circumstances.

Again, you were there?  You know this group?  You know for a fact that
women in this group had, themselves, had abortions?

You are a hateful little liar, Forgach.  Again, I think this article says
more about your concern for other women than _I_ ever could.

>> I have questioned Bill Overpeck and others who say they are associated
>> with crisis-type pregnancy centers, none of them address the common
>> problems that I and many other women face during our pregnancies.

>The Nurturing Network addresses ALL of them.  All of the common problems
>and all of the unique problems.  Other agencies do as well.  Write to me 
>and I will give you agencies that do.

I am no longer pregnant, Forgach.  And you have no credibility with
me.  Even Mr. Overpeck admitted that the group he was associated
with (I believe it was "Crisis Pregnancy Centers, Inc." or somesuch)
did not directly address the problem of adequate prenatal care.

>> The number one problem is the exorbitant cost of prenatal care and
>> giving birth.  (One local hospital told me on the phone "We require a
>> deposit of $2300. cash before you enter the ninth month, or we will
>> be unable to admit you."  In an irritable mood that day, I replied
>> "So if I don't cough up the cash, I can have the baby on the sidewalk
>> for all you care."  She answered "Oh, we don't say THAT....".  Yes
>> you do, you just use nicer words.)  The main "services" these places
>> seem to offer is a place to stay during pregnancy and adoption
>> referrals.  I would hazard a guess that this is not what most women
>> want or need.

>The Nurturing Network will provide you all this, Cathi, for your prenatal
>care AND your delivery.   That was _why_ I posted about them.  1-800-TNN-4MOM
>will put you in touch with a local doctor, in YOUR TOWN, who regularly donates
>his services to such women.

Is there an income limit?  If so, what sort of documentation is 
required as proof?  Are the medical services available to married
women?  Women who have other children?  Will they provide a place
to stay for mom, dad, and the kids, or only the pregnant woman?
What provisions are made for previous children if the woman becomes
ill?  Do they provide employment help after birth, if the woman
requires it?  How long AFTER delivery do they help the family?  Are
all their services provided internally, or do they refer women to
government agencies for help?  Does the doctor who "donates" require
the woman to be a Medicaid recipient?  (Medicaid is extremely easy
for pregnant women to get, as I learned from local NOW members)
Does the service pay the hospital bill, or do they simply sign the
woman up for Medicaid?

These are questions I have had great difficulty getting answers for
in the past.  Some groups have told me outright that there is NO
provision made for the woman's family, and in fact many seemed 
confused at the thought that a married woman might NEED help with
bringing a pregnancy to term.  (One gentleman actually said "Well,
why won't her husband pay for it?", a stunning example of cultural
myopia.)

>> I had always been pro-choice, _this_ experience made me an activist.

>So that more women would be able to kill their babies that YOUR OWN baby was
>too precious to kill.  

No Forgach, I have never helped any woman kill her baby.  I help give
women the choice whether they will HAVE babies.

>Mighty big of you, Cathi.  

Thank you Forgach, that's the only nice thing you said in the entire
article.

>Why don't you just work
>for an abortion alternative center instead, filling in any gaps where you
>see them lacking instead.

Once again, Forgach, because I never FOUND any.  And I don't have the
spare time or the money to get one started.

>>>> The
>>>> main difference is that the feminist groups want
>>>> to see this provided to all women in society, not
>>>> just those able to meet the requirements of
>>>> organizations that may or may not be operating
>>>> in their area.
>> 
>> Amen.

>Being simply a woman in need does not appear to be too stringent a requirement
>at all.

I guess that would depend on how the particular organization defines
"need", and what they have to offer.

>Suzanne Forgach

                          -rocker
                           who has lost any lingering bit of respect she
                           may have had for Ms. Forgach