HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: peter@global.hacktic.nl (Peter Busser)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:38:31 GMT
Organization: Global Village 1

lytras@avalon.physik.unizh.ch (Apostolos Lytras) writes:

>Well, let's see:

>(let's take book editing software for an example)

>FrameMaker:  about $3000 (if I convert the swiss price to US$, might be
>                          less in the US, however)

>You get almost the same under UNIX from
>Emacs & TeX:       $0 (maybe you'll have to add media cost)

That's rediculous! emTeX for DOS or OS/2 costs as much and offers as much. But
it isn't Framemaker. So what you say here has nothing to do with what were
talking about: the difference in numbers and prices of applications.

>Or take some table editing programs (spreadsheets), that offer macros:
>Excel:  well.... $500?
>Perl:              $0

Sorry, but these are rediculous comparissons. You can't compare a bicycle with
an train. Just like you can't compare X11 with COMMAND.COM. I mean, Perl and
Excel are two completely different kind of programs. I can program a
spreadsheet in C, but that doesn't make C a spreadsheet... Or does it?

>Maybe you start to understand now why I just *love* UNIX... it just
>compares favorably with DOS, and I don't give a **** about
>"user-friendly" interfaces which seem to be in the way all the time (to
>the experienced user, at least). 

I agree, but we were not discussing what you or I like. For me personally, I
couldn't care less if UNIX is going to change or not. But, it might be better
for UNIX to have a larger market. It might get squashed between other products
if it doesn't grow.

>Did you ever look at what the cost is for adding your DOS/Windows-PC to
>a network?

I know, don't tell me things I knew for years. I'm not a DOS user, I don't
like the dumb PC networks like Novell and others. You don't need to convince
me about the good things of UNIX (and not of the bad things :). The point is,
you can't say: "Hey, look at this nice hacker friendly whiz-bang UNIX system
with a feeping creaturizm shell, a nice VI editor and gcc, make, Perl, awk,
TCP/IP, NFS, X, and all the other goodies installed!". I like it, you like it,
but it scares other people.

The argument about connecting PCs to a network: well who cares? A UNIX machine
has an administrator (according to some posters here), well so has a PC
network. Period.

"But the system wasn't ment for end-users". It's an invalid argument, the
system as in operating system, was ment for interactive use. The *user
interface*, was ment for hackers. There is no reason why we can't have a
second user interface that was ment for end-users. Preferably a consistent
GUI. Even MS-DOS offers a shell and I think it even installs by default. So
why can't most UNIXes have such a thing?
From: cstaddc@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M A Stuart)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: for loop backwards !!!!
Date: 22 Nov 92 05:25:15 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
NNTP-Posting-Host: cumin.csv.warwick.ac.uk



	How can I do the equivilant of the following for loop under unix.

	
	for n := top to 1 do

	commands etc etc



	Thanks for any suggestions !


Mark. (cstaddc@uk.ac.warwick)
 
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
From: rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo)
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:58:29 GMT

peter@global.hacktic.nl (Peter Busser) writes:

>rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo) writes:

>>>  - how much is the difference between a DOS/Windows app and a comparable
>>>    UNIX app? (Ok, let the flames come in! :)))
>>I am not sure what you mean by that ?

>Sorry that I was very unclear. I ment the price.

Yes, UNIX apps cost more, but that's because most of them are designed for
multi users. If you buy a multi user version of DOS/Windows app it would
cost the same. How much is Brief text editor (for example)?
I've some programs that have competitive (same) price as UNIX apps.

>>>If I for instance don't like the
>>>Motif window manager and I switch to the OPEN LOOK window manager. That makes
>>>that makes several things look different on the screen. But everything the
>>>application displays remains exactly the same. 

>>That's what window manager supposed to do. (Like the name says 
>>"window manager").

>Yes and the name says exactly what it does: manage windows. It doesn't handle
>buttons, scroll bars, check boxes, pop-up menus, etc., etc. An OPEN LOOK app
>is still an OPEN LOOK app when run under Motif. After a few clicks, you have
>as many user interfaces as applications, except for the borders.

That's not UNIX problem, it's the stupidity (cleverness) of app developers.
FrameMaker on UNIX would have the same interface as the Windows version.
If you run a DOS (or windows) application under Windows or OS/2, it would 
still have the same user interface right ?

-- budi

-- 
Budi Rahardjo <Budi_Rahardjo@UManitoba.Ca>
Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba
From: peter@global.hacktic.nl (Peter Busser)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD?
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 14:13:44 GMT
Organization: Global Village 1

rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo) writes:

>>Besides, I'm not living in Germany.

>Then find one that's in NL.

There isn't one.

>You're not living in Germany, so what ? You can still phone them right ?
>Next time, probably you want to find place one block from your home :-)

No, not one block from my home, but something that doesn't cost me >$1/min.
to get an answer. Und dann noch etwas, nicht alle Hollaender sprichen Deutsch.
(You didn't understand the previous sentence? Well, many Dutch people won't
either... :)

Houdoe,
Peter Busser
From: peter@global.hacktic.nl (Peter Busser)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 15:34:55 GMT
Organization: Global Village 1

rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo) writes:

>That's not UNIX problem, it's the stupidity (cleverness) of app developers.
>FrameMaker on UNIX would have the same interface as the Windows version.
>If you run a DOS (or windows) application under Windows or OS/2, it would 
>still have the same user interface right ?

No, a Windows version should have a Windows look and feel, a Mac version should
have a Mac look and feel, an OS/2 version should have an OS/2 look and feel and
finally, the UNIX version should have a UNIX look and feel. Problem: WHICH
UNIX look and feel???

Have you ever tried to use a Dvorak keyboard? It's the same situation as when
a program switches the meaning of the mouse buttons. Or the direction a text
scrolls when you click a scrollbar. (Many X apps have very ugly scrollbars, you
can't see which way it scrolls until you click on it).  Consistency is
important, if not for you, then at least for me.

Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions,alt.folklore.computers
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: UNOS (was: Whence Unix? (was Re: IS UNIX DEAD?) (New Thread?))
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:55:51 GMT

In article <9211212055.50@rmkhome.UUCP> rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
			.
			.
			.
>Before Tandy went to Microsoft, they went to Charles River Data Systems.
>CRDS ships a real time UNIX compatible OS called UNOS.  Since CRDS was
>already shipping on the 68000, Tandy figured that it was a natural.  The
>problem was that CRDS couldn't shrink their base + development system
>to leave enough space on a 5 megabyte winchester to suit Tandy's fancy,
>so they went to Xenix.
>
>To this day there are remnants of Tandy support code in UNOS.
			.
			.
			.
That's OK; I know of one DBMS company that has
UNOS #ifdef-s in its source code.  It took a
few years for CRDS to get *truly* compatible.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
From: jon@jonlab.UUCP (Jon LaBadie)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: hardware store software
Date: 20 Nov 92 08:16:05 GMT
Organization: JG Computing

I posted this yesterday, but do not believe it made it out.
If it did, I apologize for the duplication.

This newsgroup normally addresses more technical questions, but
perusal of the local active file did not suggest a better newsgroup.

A local hardware store is looking to "computerize".  They want
inventory, point of sale, and accounting support from their
prospective system.

By chance, I was shopping when one salesperson was marketing
their solution to the store management.  This solution was the
leading candidate at the time.  My ears perked up when I heard
the word "UNIX" mentioned by the salesperson.  So, I injected
myself into the discussion.

I was appalled at the system being offered AND the price.

Included in this UNIX solution, at a base price of $40,000, were:

  software            (I have no knowledge of quality or suitability)
  1 computer          (a 4MByte, 386SX !!!!!)
  1 console terminal  (they probably need 3 terminals)
  1 pos register      (they probably need 3 registers)

Anything extra (including support) was beyond the base price.

To the store management I opined that the computer was not adequate
and the price was excessive.

However, I am certainly not an expert in this market.

If you have experience in this vertical market, would you give some
guidance that I can pass on to my friends at the store?

Possibly some other vendors.
Possible yea/neah the suggested deal was reasonable.

Thanks,

Jon

-- 
Jon LaBadie
princeton!jonlab!jon

-- 
Jon LaBadie
princeton!jonlab!jon
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
From: les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD?
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:17:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.215409.18067@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> martin@datacomm.ucc.okstate.edu (Martin McCormick) writes:

>First, I completely agree with Jeff's enthusiasm for this system.  It is good
>and probably is the wave of the future.  I do have one gripe, however.
>As I have said, in other postings, Postscript is a half-finished job until
>somebody comes up with a method for converting it back into standard ASCII
>text like the lines you are reading, now.

I think GNU Ghostscript has an ASCII output option that will generate
text positioned approximately where it is supposed to be on a page
with anything else omitted.  

> The windows-oriented approach is
>totally useless for those of us who are blind and use speech synthesizers.
>We were able to cobble together a small C program to strip out all that
>Postscript language and display a completely deformatted stream of data.
>It beats nothing, though not by much.  I would love to help fix this problem,
>but I need to find a document explaining Postscript in electronic form so
>I can read it and figure out how to tackle this beast.

It's non-trivial in the general case because you have to be able to handle
the entire postscript language to interpret the positioning and scaling
effects.  Plus you'll miss things where fonts have been converted to
curves and manipulated for artistic but still readable effects.  A
quick and dirty approach is to just extract the strings in parens
from the postscript and try to assemble them into text.  A more ambitious
project would be to modify the Ghostscript ascii output to maintain
some font size and type info that could be used by the speech synthesizer
to vary the output effects.

Les Mikesell
  les@fb.com
From: wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lars Wirzenius)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (very long)
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:20:33 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

papresco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>This argument is illogical!  Right now we have no standard help key.  I
>propose a key that exists on 97% of computer/terminal keyboards.  You 
>complain about the other 3%.  Surely adding support for F keys doesn't
>have to remove support from computers that don't have fkeys, does it?

There are heck of a lot of terminals with an F1 key where the F1 key
does something else than work as a help key.  Like pausing/unpausing
output to the screen (all of the VT100 and compatible terminals I've
seen, for instance).

Also, if the only way to get help is by pressing F1 (or Help for that
matter), you certainly remove support from terminals without such
keys.  

I don't see any point in hardcoding the help key, or assuming that all
keyboards will have a suitable key that can be permanently bound for
such a purpose.  Is there a problem making the system itself to
different kinds of terminals?  If the terminal changes, the UI should
adapt itself, instead of assuming that all terminals look and behave
alike.  Also, the UI should be able to adapt itself to different
users' preferences: not everybody wants a help key at all (e.g. I
prefer to have the F1 key bound to other-window in Emacs, since that's
sometimes easier for me to use than ^XO), and some people prefer it to
be something else than F1 because they're used to that other key.

--
Lars.Wirzenius@helsinki.fi  (finger wirzeniu@klaava.helsinki.fi)
   MS-DOS, you can't live with it, you can live without it.
Xref: sparky comp.unix.questions:13878 comp.unix.shell:4847
From: merlyn@ora.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions,comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: How does one log finger info ?
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:20:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: romulus.MERLYN.92Nov23142034
Distribution: comp
Organization: Stonehenge Consulting Services; Portland, Oregon, USA

In article <munish.722552144@eustis> munish@eustis.cs.ucf.edu (Munish Jain) writes:
   How does one log information about who is "finger"ing me\
   and when ? and how to use a .plan which will keep tell
   the person fingering me that he is the nth person who
   has fingered blah blah. 

   Could somebody give me any info ?

I've lost count now... is this the 47th or 48th time that someone has
asked this in the last two months?

Please reply by email.  I'll summarize. :-)

Just another puzzled Usenet oldtimer wondering what "FAQ" really means,
--
Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
merlyn@ora.com (semi-permanent) merlyn@reed.edu (for newsreading only)
factoid: "Portland, Oregon, home of the California Raisins and Lone-Star Beer!"
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (very long)
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 14:56:35 GMT

In article <By13nJ.Axv@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:

>The point is, until I learned to FTP, make and run, I didn't have any
>choice OTHER then vi or emacs.  And I'm lucky I even know about emacs.
>As a new user, the computer SHOULD have defaulted to an easier text
>editor.

The new users here default to Emacs.  That's proving troublesome, so
they will probably default to Pico in the near future.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
From: rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo)
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD?
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:56:53 GMT

peter@global.hacktic.nl (Peter Busser) writes:

>pfcouvar@unix.amherst.edu (Peter F. Couvares) writes:

>>peter@global.hacktic.nl (Peter Busser) writes:

>>>>>If you want a nice graphical interface
>>>>>like Windows or Os/2, you have to ftp and make that too.
>>>>Um, no ... you just install X from the SLS disks, I believe.
>>>Yep. But then, how do I know to type in 'startx' on the command line?

>>	The same way you know to type "win" to start MSWindows or to
>>double-click to start a Mac application -- you read the short intro
>>documentation. It's not the least bit difficult.

>I don't need to type anything to boot OS/2 in a graphics environment.

I don't have to type anything to start my NCD X terminal.

Typing one word (like 'win' or 'startx' or 'openwin') is not that difficult.
You have to type something anyway...(like editing a note/letter/mail).

-- budi
-- 
Budi Rahardjo <Budi_Rahardjo@UManitoba.Ca>
Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions,comp.unix.sysv386
From: sherman@unx.sas.com (Chris Sherman)
Subject: Re: How does a mortal become a UNIX WIZARD ?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 02:13:49 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.

In <1992Nov19.001512.72408@slate.mines.colorado.edu> mbarkah@slate.mines.colorado.edu (Ade Barkah) writes:


>What does it take for a man, er, person, to become a Unix Wizard ?

Delete random files and/or directories from the system (like /bin, /usr/bin,
/etc, /dev) and try to recover.  You will learn a lot about Unix then.

:-)
 
-- 
     ____/     /     /     __  /    _  _/    ____/
    /         /     /     /   /      /     /          Chris Sherman
   /         ___   /        _/      /          /
 _____/   __/   __/   __/ _\    _____/   _____/           sherman@unx.sas.com
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions,alt.folklore.computers
From: peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Whence Unix? (was Re: IS UNIX DEAD?) (New Thread?)
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 09:44:02 GMT

In article <9211212055.50@rmkhome.UUCP> rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
> >The *IX variants up to that time had a real problem running on an 8086
> >chip.   I wouldn't say it was slow, but the only other computer that I
> >saw that was slower was turned off.

That's interesting, considering that for most real applications Xenix was
a lot faster than MS-DOS: the disk I/O was faster, the screen I/O was faster,
and the system as a whole was more robust and reliable. Unfortunately, in a
time when 5 MB hard drives were still being sold, you pretty much required
half of the 10 MB drive in an XT for the O/S and swap, and if you added the
compiler you only had 1-2 MB free. That's what really killed it.

> >Microsoft's Xenix efforts were for Tandy on their 68000
> >based machines.

With a 6MB (not 5MB) winchester. The biggest problem they had was crummy
mechanical design: here you had an all-in-one computer that rebooted when
you hit it on the side. Putting a piece of foam tape over one of the circuit
boards to stop it rubbing against the one next to it (hadn't RS ever heard
of standoffs?) fixed that.
-- 
Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
 `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
  'U`    
Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
From: ad198@yfn.ysu.edu (Carl Landis)
Subject: Tape archiving problem
Reply-To: ad198@yfn.ysu.edu (Carl Landis)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:01:00 GMT


Hello,

I have just received a SiliconGraphics Iris Indigo computer to be
used in my department.  The operating system is dubbed IRIX.
I do not yet have a manual and the manual pages on the computer
have been removed by the company that the computer came from.
It uses a "4D Window Manager".  My question is this:  I attempted
to backup the system on a 150M data cartridge.  When I try to
retrieve some of the files, I get the error message "tar: directory
checksum error".  Also at times, I get a message that it can not
read the tape.  The tape drive is a QC150 data cartridge tape drive.
What does the message mean?  Is the info on the tape lost or can
I salvage it?  My knowledge of UNIX commands is minimal; I usually
work through the windows.  The computer is stand-alone (not on a
network).

Any help will be appreciated.  Please post here or to:
ad198@yfn.ysu.edu.

Thanks.

-Carl Landis
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
From: keiblin@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Alexander Keiblinger)
Subject: HP DJ550C and /dev/lp doesnt work ...
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Organization: Techn. University of Berlin, Germany
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:08:09 GMT

Hy,
has anyone a SIMPLE solution for printing ASCII text per /dev/lp
with the Hewlett Packard Deskjet-Serie. 
I just get one line, after that the printer is in error state and
no more noise is heard.
Any solutions for the PCL-3 output mode ?

Thanks in advance ...
From: laakkone@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Laakkonen)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: Absurd! (Re: IS UNIX DEAD)
Date: 19 Nov 92 09:27:04 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In <Bxvu0w.BwD@research.canon.oz.au> luke@research.canon.oz.au (Luke Kendall) writes:

>This `is Unix dead' is one of the most stupid subjects I have ever seen
>discussed.
>  1) Some people seem to be confusing operating systems with the
>     applications that run under the OS.

i agree with this. what also irritates me is people continuously
changing the subject line ...

-tero
From: rm72@prism.gatech.EDU (Bruce McCullough)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: UNIX Training
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:35:00 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

>1) are there any companies which teach UNIX topics such as system
>   management, networking, etc? addresses? prices?
   Take a peek in Unix world and Unix Review. There are many companies
   that will send you demo disks and misc. Most of these are somewhat
   expensive.  
 
>2) what are the most popular magazines in the UNIX area?
    For me the two I mentioned above but I'm sure other netters will
    give you some more titles.

Although you did say mail me directly heres my response:
One reason I like to go ahead and post to the group instead of mailing
directly is that there is usually someone else with the same question
although it could also be done in several different ways this reaches
more people and saves a lot of mailing back and fourth.
-- 
Robert B. McCullough-Computer Operations Tech.
Registrar Data Systems
Georgia Institute of Technology
Internet: rm72@prism.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
From: rmaszkow@nyx.cs.du.edu (Rafal Maszkowski)
Subject: executing elm.Z?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 21:35:10 GMT


How can I run e.g. elm.Z without uncompressing it on the disk?

Rafal
From: harley@engrhub.ucsb.edu (Harley Hahn)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: IS UNIX DEAD? 14 of 22
Date: 19 Nov 92 08:28:28 GMT

This is number 14 in a series of 22 responses to the question:
 
What do you think about the Byte magazine cover that asked:
IS UNIX DEAD?
 
(moderated by Harley Hahn)
 
----------
From: gator.rn.com!dlpinc00!dlparker@homebase.vistachrome.com
David L. Parker, Automated Data Management Services,
   Pleasant Hill, MO 
 
I laughed out loud when that issue arrived!  The article was 
interesting and somewhat informative - but when someone with the 
marketing acumen of Ray Noorda (of Novell) decides to throw in 
with USL, and is now reportedly weighing the possibility of 
buying controlling interest in USL, you realize how absurd that 
question really is.
 
If you consider the installed base of Unix users - not the 
comparatively meaningless (in this context) DOS standard of # of 
copies sold - and then factor some percentage of the installed 
base of Novell users...  And even if some of the other versions 
of Unix fall by the wayside, not all the other versions of Unix 
are going away!  It will get bigger, obviously.  The role it 
plays may change somewhat, but Unix is not dead, by any means.
 
The question should be:  JUST HOW BIG IS Unix GOING TO GET?? -- 
 
==========