HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pentangl@spdcc.com (Scott Moir)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:02:53 GMT

I have been reading some of the back and forth about the acceptability
of finding a particular 'style' of a person's behaviour distasteful. It has
provided a good deal of thought as I have been following this thread from
the beginning.

I am looking at a problem. I see that there -is- certain behaviour that
will irritate some people (for various reasons) be it nelliness or butchness
or what have you. People getting flamed for expressing one point of view over
the other is a little counter-productive. It is falling into the range of 
'PCness'. 

Where I think the problem might be is the thin line between 'personal likes'
and 'acceptance'.

Something that is a personal like falls into the realm of personal space.
Acceptance falls into the realm of interaction with society.

I may not personally like green people, but if someone tried to legislate
against them or tell them that they don't have the same rights as I do I
would be out there trying to help them in a heartbeat. Allowing the powers
that be to limit, or worse yet, outright ban those green people would be
irresponsible and would be hypocritical. If *I* want those rights, they should
have them too.

I'm not certain that there is a real answer to this one. Yes, prejudice
is still prejudice, but one -is- entitled to thier personal tastes.

Mr Sarver is pointing out that nellies are a squicking point for many
straights as well as closeted (and apparently) non-closeted gays.

This is true to a point. That -doesn't- mean that the nellies should stop
being themselves.

Many other people here are reading that and saying "Yah? What do you think
should be done about it?" and "What right do you think you have to DO anything
about it?"

It has been suggested that if one 'small' thing is preventing progress at
its greatest speed, that the part should be removed or reduced/subdued.
I personally feel that would be selling out. It would be saying 'My kind
of faggot is more important than yours.' 

I think that there are portions of any group that are more extreme in 
some sense or other, but they are still part of that group. 

I think the initial point that Mr Sarver makes is correct. People get bugged
by some stereotypical images... But they are just that, images. They aren't
us. It is a point of self observation, and part of the baggage that we carry
with us as a group. 

What to do?

Pick up, move on, and Deal. It is part of us. 

Scott

-- 
Scott Moir / Pentangle / Satyr ______ # "There's really only one requirement 
pentangl@Ursa-Major.spdcc.com  \ \/ / #  for a Prophet, and you've got it."
B4 f t+ w g k+(+) s+ m r p+     \/\/  # "What's that?"
These are my opinions, not SPDCC's    # "A mouth." - 'God' to J.R.'BoB' Dobbs
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: advice sought: handling on-street harassment
Date: 31 Aug 1992 18:20:10 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu
Keywords: gaybashing, fundamentalists, religious zealots, street-corner, college town

In article <la592nINNqfb@news.bbn.com> 
rrizzo@star-trek.bbn.com (Ron Rizzo) writes:

> Recently while passing through the main square of a well-known 
> college town known for its tolerance of street orators and performers 
> of all kinds, a couple of gay men were verbally gaybashed by religious 
> fundamentalists.  As the men walked by, one of the fundies shouted at 
> them, and, I guess, for the benefit of onlookers, "THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL 
> CANNOT ENTER HEAVEN!*"  [...]
> What, if anything, of a legal, political, tactical or organizational nature
> can be done about such occurences?  Can they be arrested for assault, sued,
> reported to the police or city hall?  [...]

A couple of years ago, West Hollywood was overrun on the weekends
by Fundies who'd harrass people walking down the street, shouting
things similar to what you've quoted here.  I've always responded
to these people the same way: if they're standing in front of me,
a request such as "Get the fuck out of my way, asshole" usually 
suffices, particularly when I put on my nasty-faggot-from-hell
expression; if they try to hand me something, I don't reach to
take it from them; if they shout something at me, I shout something
scabrous back at them.  But they don't annoy me, since they're so
clearly delusional.  But they *did* bother a lot of people, so
a group got together and named themselves something confrontational
(I can't remember what, exactly, but it was a take off on Lesbian
Vampires from Sodom), and they followed the fundies around and did to
them what the fundies were attempting to do to others.  The fundies
did finally go away after a few months, and the street theater 
aspect was fun for a couple of weeks, but I think it was an
overreaction.

I would just ignore them.  

Arne
From: drp@dosbears.UUCP (David R. Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: research on the gay male voice
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:28:35 GMT
Reply-To: drp@dosbears.uucp
Organization: DosBears

In article <15840@star.cs.vu.nl> fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!) writes:
>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>>Speaking of, these machines [NeXT] seem to have curried quite a lot
>>of favor with fashion-following fags.  It's a very gay
>>computer, I think.
>
>It runs a non-standard flavor of an OS, which it uses to express itself
>in ways most comp-users find extravagant or a waste of resources, it is
>built to communicate which it does in a style that is totally its own,
>recognizable but different, there are a couple of things you can do
>with it you can't do with another computer, people's first impressions
>of it always fall into extremes, and it costs megabucks to buy it
>peripherals that'll keep it happy.
>
>Come to think of it, in a lot of ways, it's like having me on your
>desk.

Hmm, I wonder which goes down more gracefully?

--
         David R. Preston   drp@dosbears.uucp dosbears@netcom.com
              Information gladly given but safety requires
               the avoidance of unnecessary conversation.
            D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
From: michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: BANK OF AMERICA changes mind on Boy Scouts!
Date: 28 Aug 92 08:26:21 GMT
Organization: Resonex Inc., Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Aug28.141731.7093@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>And good for WFB.  Boo hiss BoA (and BSA).

Hmmm.  "BofA" and "BSA".  Awfully similar names.  [And similarly awful,
as well.]  Coincidence?  I think not...

[Ok, so it's a slow day... ;-)]

-- 
Michael Bryan        michael@resonex.com                     |     ,_,
Milk and Cheese in '92!!!                                    |    /oo \
"What the world needs now are some true words of wisdom,     |    <>__|
like 'La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la'."  -- Cracker           |    |  U|
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat)
Subject: Re: musical finale
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:42:19 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.070421.5492@syacus.acus.oz.au> brent@syacus.acus.oz.au  
(Brent Davies) writes:
} 
} >Jeff opts for: Mahler's eighth, pt. 1
} 
} >Steve prefers: Durufle's Requiem
} 
} >Jess chooses: Britten's "War Requiem"
} 
} > Colburn prefers:
}    >Schumann: Second Movement, Quartet in A Major
}    >Mozart: Aria from Zaide
}    >        Masonic Funeral Music (no, I don't wear aprons)
}    >Bach:   Et resurrexit from the Mass in B Minor (not for religious 
}    >        content, but for joy)
}    >Or, maybe, just the Berg Violin Concerto.
} 
} I've thought about this before, and it seems I'm always changing my mind.
} Things that have been candidates (and still may be):
} 
}      --Mozart's "Requiem"
}      --Stravinsy's "Firebird" suite
}      --Debussy's "Prelude a l'apres-midi"
}      --Rachmaninoff's 2d Piano Concerto
}      --Honegger's "Adagio for Strings"
}      --Tchaikovsky's 6th, 4th mvt
} 
} There's just so *much*.
} 
} --Brent

*holds his tongue*

"Think A Moment" -- LFO

Donald
From: bfbear@penn.Gwinnett.COM (Penn Collins)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: do you see this?
Date: 2 Sep 92 03:14:32 GMT

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
                (wonderfully gushy stuff deleted)
> i fixed her a special dinner, her choice of menu: hot & sour soup, papadums,
> chutney, and yellow cake with chocoalte frosting for dessert.  i dyed some
> coconut green, borrowed her Matchbox school bus, and decorateed the cake like
> school bus driving down a road through green fields.  it was cute if i do say
> so myself.
                what a wonderfully eclectic choices (for a kindergartner)
                um...what is papadums? (I like the picture of the green
                coconut grass!)
                and thanks for such a fun post.
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.culture.asian.american
From: johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan)
Subject: Re: AM/CM - Gay Colonialism?
Organization: University of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 06:24:29 GMT

In article <p487clo@fido.asd.sgi.com> kenj@kambo.wpd.sgi.com (Ken ``Blackfur'' Jones) writes:
>johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan) writes:
>
>>Of course,
>>with a sample size this small such statistics are meaningless.
>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^
>Uh oh, John.  You just said the magic Hu word! :-)

Now, Ken, since when are you one to keep me from indulging in bad
habits?  :-)

--John
-- 
John Flanagan                          ||"Pretty boys
johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu           || with the sunshine faces
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.|| <mumble mumble>..."
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822    ||            -- My Bloody Valentine
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Guess my age and win a valuable prize!
Date: 26 Aug 92 09:39:26 GMT

dblakele@acpub.duke.edu (Dean Blakeley MD) writes:
:In article <1992Aug25.052323.22299@menudo.uh.edu> elee74l@Elroy.UH.EDU writes:
:I've had the rather (some would say mistaken) philosophy of associating
:with men who are my age (30) or older.  I've had to do some painful
:growing up over the years and don't wish to relive that part of me again
:(or at least for now) with somebody going through those same stages.
:There are also less games (however one defines that) that go on and
:both parties are usually comfortable with themselves at their own
:level of growth.  Although quite probably, I'm just looking for
:somebody to teach me the next step in the path or just a big pair
:of arms to hold me.

Associating age with a certain level of maturity is IMHO like choosing
wine based on the price: you can make some damn bad mistakes with
that.

There are a lot of fucked-up older guys out there, and some young guys
who've really got it together.

Personally, I go for the 'older mature man' because it tuns me on. You
don't find a lot of youngsters with big arms to hold you, and I must
say that I'm too inexperienced to bother teaching somebody else the
ropes. To back this up: I have yet to have sex with a man even close to
my age (22).

This can have some funny consequences; I was working at the bar one
night, when in comes this tall dark handsome hunk with big biceps. he
starts talking to one of the barmen, Machiel, to whom I later remark
that I really like the guy who talked to him. Of course, Machiel can't
resist introducing me to him, Cees. A few weeks later Cees and me meet,
and after breakfast (don't you just adore men who wake you up asking
you if you want the regular or the big breakfast, and the regular
breakfast includes croissants and strawberries) I'm invited for dinner
next weekend.

It is then that he asks me my age, and I shocked him. he thought I was
25+, I'm not. I thought he was late thirties, he's is not. Cees is 49.

He cares somewhat. I don't.

							FJ!!
From: tachyon@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Tane' Tachyon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: "fuck"
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:31:32 GMT
Organization: Tachyon Labs
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


In article <Btvnt6.BB5@world.std.com> jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
>There was once an old man of great fame
>Who, when asked how he did with a dame,
>  Said, "In order to please her,
>  I reversed Julius Caesar,..."
>
>No way to censor out the heterosexuality without ruining the rhymes.

Twas a stealth lesbian of great fame
Who, when asked how she did with a dame,

-- 
 ____________________________________________________________________________
|tachyon@deeptht.armory.com  \        /__    One of the Bivariant Illuminati |
|      tachyon@ucscb.ucsc.edu  \    /   /  One of these days I should log off|
|         tachyon@gorn.echo.com  \/   /  and get some work done ... nahh ... |
 ----------------------------------\/----------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.motss:37645 soc.history:7913
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.history
Subject: Re: A Short History ofDiscrimination in the Military
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:51:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: tc.1992Aug31.165156.16849
Reply-To: shore@tc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell Theory Center

In article <16276@pitt.UUCP>, geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
> That's interesting.  It was my understanding that the Confederate
> Army didn't have blacks.  What is the story on this?

The Confederate Army did have blacks.  When and in what
capacity is left as an exercise for those with a library
card.
-- 
"I would promptly inform any homosexual who would dare to proposition
me that my preference is fisting."  -- Theodore A. Kaldis

       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
From: bgonzal@math.rutgers.edu (Bil Gonzalez)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Buck Rogers (was: research on the gay male voice)
Summary: Surrender Dorothy
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:00:14 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <uiZ5PB2w164w@penn.Gwinnett.COM>, bfbear@penn.Gwinnett.COM (Penn Collins) writes:
> > In article <15843@star.cs.vu.nl> fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!) writes:
> > >Hunky winged men..aren't you confusing this with the equally appalling
> > >'Flash Gordon' ? I know Steve would rent that...
> 
> actually that scene NEVER fails to crack me up (all the winged me)
> 
> I keep waiting  for them to spell out "Surrender Dorothy!"...
> (with the wicked witch music in the background)
> hee hee hee hee!

Actually, many a film student has compared Flash with the Wizard of
Oz.  Yes, the winged men/monkeys, being swept away from home to a
strange, fantastical place where nothing seems real, the plastic clad
guy with the mask (evil, evil) melting at the end when he dies.  It
surely isn't scene by scene, but enough of a correlation has been
noticed for film people to have discussions about it.

BTW, the script for Wizard of Oz originally had the witch spelling
"Surrender Dorothy or Die!", which was determined to be too scary for
children.  The Dorothy character's life is never in true danger,
although the threat INSINUATES death, it is never stated.  This may
seem a bit over-cautious in this day of age of violent children's
entertainment, but my mother's story about hiding under the seat
whenever the witch was on screen (when seeing it in the movies for the
first time, as a little girl), reminds me of how entertainment has
changed.

Bil Gonzalez
bgonzal@math.rutgers.edu
______________________________________________________________________
"It's sad, believe me Missy
 When you're born to be a sissy..."

				"Cowardly Lion"
				in WIZARD OF OZ

I wonder if he really wanted the medal, or a chest to pin it on?
______________________________________________________________________
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Hissing sissies
Date: 1 Sep 1992 13:26:52 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Sep1.065800.6625@reed.edu> 
nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:

> What the heck is a hissy fit, anyway? The only thing I can think of is
> a temper tantrum, maybe with a lightly more high pitched screaming.

Hmmm.  Not quite, but you're on the right track.

[...]
> Is this the analogy? When having a hissy fit, when having an orgasm -
> both vocalizations that are completely uncontrolled?

That's probably the analogy he was trying to draw, which only
goes to show he's unfamiliar with both.  Hissy fits, though, 
are *terribly* controlled, which makes them so much fun to
watch.

Arne

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper)
Subject: Re: Insults
Organization: Stanford University
	<4866@news.duke.edu> <l9mjuqINN96v@mizar.usc.edu>
	<71676@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:12:10

In article <71676@apple.Apple.COM> mattm@Apple.COM (Matthew Melmon)
writes: 

    [line noise deleted]

I suppose it's time to call in for repairs.

- Bob
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams)
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:10:11 GMT

In <1992Aug27.224324.1405@tc.cornell.edu> shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.193239.13588@microsoft.com>, bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
>> What's the problem, Arne?  I thought you and the other "enlightened
>> masters" of soc.motss were so open-minded. 
>Hey, Boob, just because *you* live in a World Without Women
>(how utterly masc.!) doesn't mean that the rest of us do.
>What, pray tell, is open-minded about denying our existence?
>Masc. men make me a happy homo!

Whoah, Melinda!  I thought the whole "no female pronouns" thing applied to
men referring to *each other* with said pronouns.

Personally, I don't think referring to males as females--apparently on the
basis of sexual orientation--is a healthy practice.  While mere gender has
many societal things tied up with it (IOW, what it "means" to be male or
female), I think it's better to disarm the language by removing sexual
orientation from the connotations the gender words.

As I tell people who make "genderfuck" comments: My gender is male, thanks
to certain elements of anatomy.  It doesn't have anything to do with my
bedmates.


--
 ________________ Alan Williams  vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu ___________________
 \/ A hypothetical paradox: What would happen in a battle between an         \/
    _Enterprise_ security team, who always get killed soon after appearing,
    and a squad of Imperial Stormtroopers, who can't hit the broad side of
    a planet?                 	--Tom Galloway
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Tea parties
Date: 28 Aug 92 07:45:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug28.074533.29129
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

Bob makes another insightful analogy, this time between motss and a
tea party.

Why are tearooms (as in bathroom trade tearooms) called tearooms?
Certainly we don't have tea there.

I thought maybe it was a social analogy, but my small knowledge of the
tearoom scene says that it is not a particularly social situation,
certainly not directly comparable to fancy tea.

I can come up with some horrible puns, such as "fits me to a T" or
"tee-tee", but I can't imagine that's right.

When did the term "tearoom" get coined, and why?
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/     In a totally sane society, madness is the only freedom
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Gay Republicans
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 16:23:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.150928.20262@cbfsb.cb.att.com> rcrice@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (roger.w.crice) writes:

>Do these people think all of America is so stupid that they 
>can't see through this?  Are they? 

Who knows?  I got e-mail from a gay Republican the other day
*insisting* that "family values" is not a code phrase for
"anti-homosexual position."  The mind reels.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "I don't know how much support NAMBLA
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  has in the gay community."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Clayton Cramer, August 1992
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: British spellings
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:35:28 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.070241.6928@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:

>>judgement

>I don't have a British dictionary handy to me, so I might be
>completely wrong, but isn't the accepted American spelling "judgment"
>while the accepted British spelling is "judgement"?

Yes, but.  The American spelling has not been universally accepted by
all Americans; some publishing houses prefer "judgement."  I recall a
style sheet (I think from 19th Century Music) that admitted they allowed
themselves this one idiosyncrasy.  To them, "judgment" looked as if it
should be pronounced "jug-ment," and offended usual orthographic
standards.  I feel much the same way myself, and tend to stick with the
"e" in the word.

>The astute reader might have noticed that I use a weird mix of British
>and American spellings. I've had people say it was sexy, and I've had
>people say it was pretentious. 

I'm with the latter camp, but what does my opinion matter.  As indicated
in my previous paragraph, I wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on in
any debate on the matter.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: brent@syacus.acus.oz.au (Brent Davies)
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Organization: Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Melbourne
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:40:59 GMT

[Brent, re: La Sargon]
>>constipated mindsets.  You know, sort of like yours.

[Jess]
>You mustn't talk like that, Brent.  Sargon will think you're
>a meanie.  We couldn't have that!

You know, he mentioned that he'd been in the defence force, so he *must* have
heard that old military chestnut "to rip someone a new arsehole"...  Well,
why bother when I'm not even interested in the first one?

[Brent]
>>this "anderson" you speak so lowly of.

[Jess]
>Not to worry one teeny, tiny bit (though thanks for your
>concern).  Don't think I take anything he says at all
>seriously.  I mean, how could anyone pay *any* attention to
>him at all?  

Well, there ya go, mate, that's what I was a few days late learning.

[Jess]
>Each posting in turn reveals more
>about Sargon's malaise.  If he's a specialist in anything,
>it's self-impeachment.  So there can hardly be anyone here
>who doesn't know what he's full of.  He's a kind of gay
>Quayle, really.

I started out being exasperated; that changed quickly to sadness.  I mean,
The most faaaabulous thing about being a Tragic Queen (tm) is being *aware*
that one is a Tragic Queen, for Leda's sake (not to mention the Swan's)!
And here's this boy, a TQ from go to whoa, engaged in willful self-
immolation, as TQs have throughout the millenia from Cleopatra onwards,
*horrifyingly* unaware of The Tragedy That Is His Life...

...that love can be found in so many forms that as long as our species is
fortunate enough to have a place on this planet, there will never be an end
found to the variety.  How can anybody lose hope when that's true, ever
be lonely when that's true?  And how can anyone miss, let alone believe in,
the hopelessness and isolation preached in the Gospel According to Sargon?

Don't believe in it, all you thousands who read.  It's a *false* Gospel;
I know--I've tried living it.  What it got me was the greatest heartache
of my life.

--Brent