HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bdh4@quads.uchicago.edu (bryan david hardin)
Subject: Re: SF or Fantasy? 
Reply-To: bdh4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:12:42 GMT

In article <727905980snz@keris.demon.co.uk> chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton) writes:
>In article <1993Jan22.121842.1@master.uchicago.edu> david@master.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>>"Offended" ?!?!?  I have read sci-fi all of my life, and have never been
>>offended by the usage of the word sci-fi.  Who cares ? SF, sci-fi, its
>>all the same.  As far as Hollywood productions go, they are certainly
>>on the same level of writing/action/scientific accuracy as the majority
>>of SF/sci-fi out there.  Take this to mean that most Hollywood stuff is
>>good or that most sci-fi is written at a fifth grade reading level with
>>the scientific accuracy of the late news, however you wish.  I think
>>it is a bit much to get "offended" and warn someone they are in dire
>>peril of inviting flames because they use the term sci-fi.
>
>*You* aren't offended, *I* am not offended, but what was stated was that
>*some* people *are* offended by the term.  I have personally been flamed
>by one of them (incorrectly - I was quoting another message that used te
>term), so the warning (as a warning of possibilities, not a flame in
>itself) was, I think, correct.
>
>Incidentally, I generally use the term SF to mean the whole field
>('Speculative Fiction', which includes fantasy).
>
>As far as Pern goes, I would say that it's not fantasy in the general
>sense, as that virtually always has aspects of 'supernatural' and/or is
>set in a conciously medieval-style world.  Neither are they very much
>Science Fiction, as the science is, at best, dubious, and in the main
>part of most of the stories is absent totally.
>
>What the books *are*, almost totally, are romances, using elements of
>fantasy and science fiction.  The same goes for Anne's other books, with
>greater or lesser amounts of science.  IMO there's nothing wrong with
>that...
>
>***********************************************************************
>*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
>*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
>*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
>***********************************************************************

From uchinews!linac!uwm.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!keris.demon.co.uk!chris Mon Jan 25 12:55:03 CST 1993
Article: 2544 of alt.fan.pern
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Subject: Re: SF or Fantasy? 
Distribution: world
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 20:06:20 +0000

> In article <1993Jan22.121842.1@master.uchicago.edu> david@master.uchicago.edu writes:

>>"Offended" ?!?!?  I have read sci-fi all of my life, and have never been
>>offended by the usage of the word sci-fi.  Who cares ? SF, sci-fi, its
>>all the same.  As far as Hollywood productions go, they are certainly
>>on the same level of writing/action/scientific accuracy as the majority
>>of SF/sci-fi out there.  Take this to mean that most Hollywood stuff is
>>good or that most sci-fi is written at a fifth grade reading level with
>>the scientific accuracy of the late news, however you wish.  I think
>>it is a bit much to get "offended" and warn someone they are in dire
>>peril of inviting flames because they use the term sci-fi.

>*You* aren't offended, *I* am not offended, but what was stated was that
>*some* people *are* offended by the term.  I have personally been flamed
>by one of them (incorrectly - I was quoting another message that used te
>term), so the warning (as a warning of possibilities, not a flame in
>itself) was, I think, correct.

>Incidentally, I generally use the term SF to mean the whole field
>('Speculative Fiction', which includes fantasy).

Actually, I think Speculative Fiction is even a weirder term than 
SF or sci-fi.  After all isn't the definition of fiction the fact that
it is made up, i.e., Speculative ? :)

>As far as Pern goes, I would say that it's not fantasy in the general
>sense, as that virtually always has aspects of 'supernatural' and/or is
>set in a conciously medieval-style world.  Neither are they very much
>Science Fiction, as the science is, at best, dubious, and in the main
>part of most of the stories is absent totally.

In some ways the atmosphere is Medieval with Lords and the like, 
guilds and low technology.

>What the books *are*, almost totally, are romances, using elements of
>fantasy and science fiction.  The same goes for Anne's other books, with
>greater or lesser amounts of science.  IMO there's nothing wrong with
>that...

I totally agree.  If they fall into any genre 'well', it is that they
are romances.  In a lot of ways in current fiction, these three of become
a continuum.  Fantasy books will make references to parallel worlds that
are High-tech, and many 'space operas' are just romances in space.

>***********************************************************************
>*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
>*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
>*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
>***********************************************************************

-David Hardin
-University of Chicago
-Committee on Neurobiology
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu (James H. Kiley)
Subject: MUSH stuff (was Re: Rider distribution)
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 04:06:48 GMT

mark@eis.calstate.edu (Mark Crother) writes:
> F'ryx writes:

>How hard would it be to make characters buy food and eat every so often,
>or they can get sick and die?  

	They seemed to be trying this on Mua'Kaar MUSH.  It looked like major 
server munch to me, but alt.fan.pern isn't the place to discuss it so I'll 
shh. :)

>I think it is better to expand as the populous grows.  Try to come up
>with a critical mass that makes each weyr/hold/hall fun and productive.

	My guess is 8-15 active players in a given area.  More and
individuals get lost in the shuffle, fewer and there's not enough people
for regular, interesting interaction.

>>*  Should the wizards be 'Janitors' and leave the 'leadership' to the
>>people of 'In Character' responsibility?

	This is something more properly discussed in rec.games.mud.admin, 
and yes, I'll personally be happy to follow it there if someone leads the
way. :)

>>The true population of a Weyr resides in the 'colored' (I don't like that 
>>designation, cuz they are _all_ colored) dragons. 
	
	I use 'chromatic', as opposed to 'metallic'.  Seems to get the point
across pretty well.

>One thing you could try, do not let weyrs grow faster than hold or
>hall.

	I absolutely, completely, 100%% agree with you here.  It's one of 
the biggest problems I've seen on a Pern game.

>>F'ryx, rider of green Impth @ PernMUSH.

>--Mark (T'per)

Jim (F'gron/Mertonn)




Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Subject: Re: MU* keeness 
Distribution: world
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:07:19 +0000

In article <1993Jan27.131527.4743@midway.uchicago.edu>
            rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>Just a note on getting permission for non-riders to be allowed
>to hear dragons on the MUSHes... for the cases of people who want
>to say they hear all dragons, period, this seems like an obvious
>requirement and I have no problem with it. I do know, though, that
>on SouCon there've been a number of cases where an individual rider
>chose, for plot reasons in a specific one-time circumstance, to use
>a '*do w *' command to allow a nonrider to hear their dragon on the
>given occasion -- usually startling the hell out of the nonrider,
>which was part of the point. I've never heard of anyone complaining
>as long as (a) it's the rider's choice, not the nonrider who hears,
>(b) the riders use some discretion on how much they go around doing
>this.

This is where the *dragon* talks to a non-rider - it was stated earlier
that this is quite permissible (Jaxom heard comments from (at least)
Mnementh, other people (including of course Robinton) were spoken to on
occasion, and as you say it startled the **** out of them <g>).

The only objection that I've seen is to people who can 'overhear'
dragons.  In the books the only person to do that regularly was Aramina
- she couldn't block them out.  The others who could hear dragons seem
to have had to want to do so (Lessa and Brekke), and then it seems (my
impression) to have been more like a conversation (the human talks to
the dragon first, and then the dragon replies explicitly to that
human, or the dragon 'calls' to the human in an emergency).

***********************************************************************
*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
***********************************************************************
From: Michael.Gunderson@launchpad.unc.edu (Michael Gunderson)
Subject: Re: DragonsFire Down
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:28:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.162905.28374@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jmorrill@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John M Morrill) writes:
>I have recieved word that Dragonsfire MUSE has unexpectedly lost its site.

That we did. We also have a new site, which is temp until the owner needs
the disk space. All DFers please come back to chronos.clock.org 4444, the
(current) new home of DragonsFire MUSE

              Mikeh (most anywhere)


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu (James H. Kiley)
Subject: Re: Rider Distribution
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:35:47 GMT

jmorrill@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John M Morrill) writes:


[disparate numbers of golds and bronzes described compared with the alleged
proportions proscribed from on high]

>I let my mind wander and ask, *could* not then color dragons be in the
>background of role playing games?

	Not sure what you mean here.  Are you suggesting perhaps running a
MU* of some kind where no one runs the chromatic dragons?  Just golds and
bronzes?

>I am exploring alternatives to the PERNMush model of roleplaying PERN.
>The PERNMush model works fine for PERNMush, but I am sure even Moonchilde
>himself will say that he did not climb up on top a mountain and receive the
>model on two clay tables (science building, maybe, but not a mountain).
>Other MU*, especially small ones, may find a different model will work better 
>for them.

	Once again, not sure what you're getting at.  Proposing a smaller 
Pern-themed MU*, wherein everyone gets to be Someone Important?  Well, a 
couple of things come immediately to mind here, and they aren't really meant
as flames:
	o  Ever heard the phrase 'too many chiefs and not enough indians'?
Playing leader wouldn't be as much fun IMHO without people to lead.
	o  Some people might not *want* to run leadership types.  Case in 
point:  I run a green rider on PernMUSH, and I don't think I'd want to deal
much more responsibility than that (as most of the riders of Fort Weyr might
tell you. (: ).  Of course, if there *are* no 'followers', then the leaders
won't have any real responsibility to speak of, so perhaps I'm begging
the point.
	o  Where does this leave the Crafts and Holds? Will they, too, be
NPC's?  Who will the riders interact with?  Who will they protect?  Who will
make nifty stuff for 'em to buy?  Or, better still, will we only allow 
Craftmasters and/or members of The Cool Crafts? :) (harper and healer, it 
seems, the crafts which seem to attract at least 50% of starting players)  
And Lords Holder as well, but no minor cotholders?  Once again, we seem to 
have the problem of Everyone's A Leader MUSH.
	
	Call it kneejerk, call it reactionary, call it what you will, but
I think a setup like it appears you're asking for just wouldn't fly.  Of 
course I could be wrong, but your proposal sounds pretty vague.

	Jim Kiley
	F'gron @ PernMUSH
	Mertonn, Master Tanner (not a Cool Craft :) ) @ SouConMUSH
	jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu
From: jmorrill@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John M Morrill)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: DragonsFire MUSE : DOWN
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:35:37 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1k42puINNnuk@shelley.u.washington.edu> Edward.L.Wallace@dartmouth.e
du (Edward L. Wallace) writes:
>DragonsFire MUSE's process was 'killed' earlier today by the new
>administrator of its host.  The Directorate has been officially
>notified that a MUSE (or MUD in general) is inappropriate for that
>machine, and can no longer run there.
>
>As an ex-Director of the MUSE (and the person who handled the talks
>regarding the shutdown) you should all consider DragonsFire MUSE down
>until further notice.  The directory and db has been archived and is
>stored at a safe location.
>
>
>F'lyr, rider of bronze Neloranth - Weyrleader of Fort Weyr
>Founding Member/Ex-Director - DragonsFire MUSE
>
>
>--
>rec.games.mud.announce submissions: rgm-announce@glia.biostr.washington.edu
>other stuff related to that group:  rgm-announce-request@glia...
>mudlist-related mail:            mudlist@glia.biostr.washington.edu
>other mail of a personal nature:    scott@glia... or scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu

This article taken a while to get ot my site. It arrived here on 26-JAN-1993.

Anyway, Dragonsfire is back up. It is at chronos.clock.org 4444

See you all there!
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Strange problems call for strange solutions.
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Hearing dragons
Date: 27 Jan 93 13:29:03 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago


>In article 727500590@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au, damiene@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Eccles) writes:
>> 
>> From what I had gathered from the various books, including dragonsdawn
>> and [robinton hearing Mnemenenementh] , dragons could talk to _anyone_
>> they wanted.
>> 
>> _But_ only female humans could over hear what they said without the
>> dragons doing it deliberatly.

I've played it a variety of ways. On the MUSHes, I go along with the
premise that nobody currently around can hear dragons without it being
deliberate on the dragons' part, the ones who used to be able to do it were
all female, and that the dragons don't talk all that often even by choice
to people who aren't their riders. In a separate RPG I'm running, we do
have a male character who can talk to all dragons -- he's one of a pair
of fraternal twins with very similar characteristics, and his sister can
do it too. But we *don't* have the premise that all or most dragons can
talk to anyone they want to... we've effectively decided that just as
the ability to hear all dragons is a very rare human attribute, the
ability to be heard by all people is a very rare draconic attribute,
and that, well, Ramoth and Mnementh are a bit special. It allows for
some interesting plot twists, both involving the few dragons who can
do it (I'm planning to introduce a nothing-special green who can, just
to shake up everyone's ideas about what constitutes a 'prestige' dragon)
and involving how to get around the limitation on the occasions when it
would be awfully scorching useful to have one able to get his point across
when his rider is elsewhere.

	-Naomi Rivkis/Jaret, blue Ziarrith's rider

-- 
Oseh shalom b'imromav, hu ya'aseh shalom, aleinu v'al kol Yisrael.
From: pyuaq@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr G S Sutherland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Questions of Internal Consistency
Date: 21 Jan 1993 20:34:50 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
NNTP-Posting-Host: anise.csv.warwick.ac.uk

In article <C17tux.MBG@newcastle.ac.uk> Mark.OLeary@newcastle.ac.uk (M.D. O'Leary) writes:

+ However, think about this: Lessa's fixation on revenge makes her 
+ 'distasteful' to Ramoth's young mind, so L fails to impress. She returns to 
+ Ruatha, sets the hold to rights, and then is driven on to use her 'push' 
+ ability to dominate the Lord Holders, who traditionally resist a female with 
+ power... Of course, the weyrs dont get summoned, and Pern gets largely 
+ devastated by thread...

Erm Raphe, without Lessa to go back in time to the end of the Eighth Pass,
the Weyrs would have stayed put. If this was the case, then their descendents
would have been in the other Weyrs of Pern at the time of the Ninth Pass.
Thus, we would not have Pern being devastated by Thread.

However, saying that, with they other Weyrs in place, Fax would have been
unable to rise to power as he did. Thus Lessa would have not been an orphan
in hiding, but one of the Ladies of her Hold. In fact, she would possibly
never have Impressed...

+> Third, fire lizards are supposed to be capable of living for thou-
+> sands of years, right?  Well, how come--Oh, guess I'd better mark 
+> this as a spoiler for those who haven't read ALL THE WEYRS OF PERN
+> yet.
+
+ No: just as long as their owner when impressed. No comment is made as to 
+ lifespan of wild FLs, Their 'group mind' retains memory for thousands of 
+ years, but that is extra-corporeal intellect, not long lifespanned 
+ individuals... But, then again, we hear of nothing that preys on adult FLs..
+ Maybe they just get careless eventually, and mis-visualise a between jump. 
+ That way, having a 'share' in a human mind (by impression) would explain how
+ they manage to continue for so long...

There are references in both the Dragon Lover's Guide, and also in DragonsDawn
that state that Fire Lizards have no `built in obsolecence' or aging. This 
suggests that they do not get old. Indeed Anne states that one pair could
ultimatly repopulate Pern should the need arise from their own clutches.

I assume that Thread and Wherries are the prime cause of Fire Lizard deaths.
I don't remember of hearing of any dying Between anywhere in the books.

+                   -Raphe, J'man Herder.    

		    -Dante, J'man Seacrafter.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: ckurs-2@wilbur.uni-mainz.de (Dominik Kubla)
Subject: re: SF or Fantasy?
Organization: Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet Mainz
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 11:17:45 GMT

How about 'Science Fantasy" ???
Seems appropriate to me, because the stories/books incorporate both, the freedom
of fantasy and the accuracy of SF.

Dominik
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| eMail to:      kubla@MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE                                |
|       or:      kubla@vzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de                                |
| sMail to:      Dominik Kubla, Steinsberg 34, 5428 Nastaetten, GERMANY       |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: Rich.Rubel@launchpad.unc.edu (Rich Rubel)
Subject: Pern is living in my Unix box!
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:02:09 GMT


Wolked in to work this morning, and found the system had crashed with this
error:
  User Panic!
  Runaway Thread Terminated!

I wonder if dragons come on 3.5" disks?
[RICHR]
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: Erik Schwiebert <evs1@cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Sources?
Date: 21 Jan 1993 23:39:18 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cu-dialup-0402.cit.cornell.edu
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
X-XXMessage-ID: <A7849F5DE701EC6C@cu-dialup-0402.cit.cornell.edu>
X-XXDate: Thu, 21 Jan 93 23:43:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.153412.5798@shearson.com> Steve Carrobis,
scarrobi@shearson.com writes:
>> >      Quote the book and page # so the rest of us can check it too..
>> >
>> >      Page 318 of Renegades of Pern.
>> 
>> ok... one other suggestion -- include the chapter number!  i just
looked
>> up p. 318 in Renegades, but Aramina isn't mentioned on that page
>> anywhere... the reason: I have the hardcover version, which has
different
>> page numbers!!!!!!

>this sounds like a nice idea. but some of us are going by memory and 
>dont have immediate access to the books. so please dont flame people
>cause they dont give u a book number or whatever. 

no prob!  the only reason i can look up the books now is cause i brought
them back to college with me after break!  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"So live that you can look |              | "Life is a tragedy for those
 any man in the eye and    |       evs1        |  who feel, and a comedy
for
 tell him to go to hell."  |  @cornell.edu |  those who think."
      -- Anonymous         |               |    -- Jean De La Bruyere
------------------------------------------------------------------------
         "Friends don't let friends run Windows." -- Anonymous
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Hearing dragons.
From: alastair@farli.otago.ac.nz (Alastair Thomson), University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand
Date: 28 Jan 93 09:37:30 +1300

In article <1993Jan19.032123.4489@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>  writes:
> 
>   That is quite true, but that's because Ramoth an The M dragon I can't
>   spell, chose to speak to him.  There are several examples of this,  
whereas
>   Those who heard them all the time regardless of whether or not they
>   wished to be heard was rare.  I only remember 3 cases, Lessa, Brekke,  
and
>   Aramina...

Actually Araminia is the only one who heard them all the time, that was  
why she and Jayge left for the Southern Continent. She had no control over  
whether she could hear the - it drove her up the wall!

Lessa, Brekke and several other whose names I can't remember could *speak*  
and *listen* to any dragon, but only when they wanted to.


Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman)
Subject: Re: MU* keeness
Reply-To: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:47:48 GMT

In article <1jl3ugINNhja@gossip.pyramid.com> 
khearn@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Keith Hearn) writes:
>The only way I can see a person being allowed to do it, is if they are
>  a good roleplayer who has proven their ability for a while, and if
>  they started up a new character to do it, since, as Tariana points
>  out, 'keenness' isn't likely to just pop up. This still leaves the
>  issue of picking the player to do it, w/o upsetting the rest of the
>  players.

The only way I'd want to see such a character created is if a player (who
is an excellent roleplayer) were to present to the responsible body a
complete plot, which would last for a limited time, and end in the
character's death or disappearance from the areas of Pern played on the 
MUSH. (The plot, of course, to be something other than angst, anxiety, and
finger-pointing provoking.) This would avoid at least some of the problem
of how to pick the player (player who comes up with the best plot wins),
and would also avoid giving the chosen player a permanent 'advantage'*.

*I'm never quite sure if hearing all dragons is an advantage or if it would
likely drive the listener insane....

-Doriana

   Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully  -- Geoff Marcy
The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. - Alfred Kinsey
		jenneke is: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern