From: celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: >slamming Women's Bookstores
Followup-To: soc.feminism
Date: 1 Jan 1993 01:44:30 GMT
Organization: AEGIS
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <9212292253.AA09583@popov.EE.CORNELL.EDU>,
seid@popov.ee.cornell.EDU (Steve Seidman) wrote:
> 
> Hi it's me again.  I think that when I heard in an Ithaca bookstore
> "This is a women's bookstore, we don't have books by men"
> an idea was crystallized in my mind and that's what I started
> to write about.  I think that what was bothering me isn't
> necessarily related to the bookstore, or whatever might have
> been going on in the minds of the collective that came up
> with their store policy (I'm no mind reader).

My personal opinion is that "exclusionary" thinking is typically
male approach while "inclusionary" is typically female.

It think that the use of "men's" thinking & behevior, such as "exclusion"
and "separitisum" when use by "women", causes a culture clash.
People are not use to women beheving as men (or visa versa).
People are generally uncomfortable with untypical behevior.

What is typical and untypical changes as the culture changes.
 Currently it is not a problem for women to be wearing
pants. A 100 years ago, women wearing pants was a BIG problem!

>[Stuff deleted]
> [The] concept of "Women's Literature,
> by Women(only) and sold in Specialty (Women's) store" is
> entrenched and considered to be no big deal.

It is now accepted. Good. The 51% minority needs places
to feel in a majority. Lets look for new horizons.

I can remember a time that women were thought to not be capable
of writing science fiction. I remember reading "Andrew Norton"
who in real life is Andrea Norton. She had to use a male pen
name to get published. (In reading "his" books, I always felt
like a woman had written it! In later years I found a woman
had written it!)

> However, I happen to think that the concept of Women's Literature
> with a Women-only-(essence) is sheer madness.

Not madness. The male experience does not include the female experience.
The two may over lap, but not completely. That part that does not,
men do not know about. Most people ignore and consider unimportant what
they
do not understand. I am sure some of women's experience is out side
of your experience.

You can only write about what you experience.
Men can write about "womenness", but is typically inaccrate
because the author lacks the experience. Women are very much
better equiped in writing about the "woman's" experience because
of the time they spend as a woman.

We now have many male authors talking about the "woman's" experience
in fiction.
Heinlein in: "Podkane of Mars" and "I Will Fear No Evil"
John Varley in "Millium", "Titain", "Wizard", "Demon", "Steel Beach", ect.
Jerry/Jerri McClain in "To Be A Woman"

Some of these are comical (like Heinlein) to very serious and
sometimes deadly accurate such as "To Be A Woman". In the case of
"To Be A Woman", it is by a man who as spend time living as a woman.

> 
> First (WARNING: deep ideology follows:)
> In theory it is possible for a male author to produce
> a book fitting into some sort of Lesbian/Women's Literature Scheme.
> (and should such a thing ever happen, it could get shut out of the
> mainstream *just* as easily as the typical Lesbian/Women's book do)

In practice, it takes a man that has "lived" (and identifies?) as a
woman to produce such a work. But by then, the person has a female
identity anyway! "To Be A Woman" is produced by an obscure publishing
house.

> [Stuff deleted]
> 
> Third (WARNING: incipient Jungian psychology follows:)
> I happen to suspect that there's a masculine and feminine component
> to everyone's personality; it's just weighted differently in people.
> The concept of Women's literature that is sooo women-oriented as to
> be beyond men rubs against that grain.  And if such a thing were really
> true there wouldn't be any point to even discussing the issue because the
> OTHER couldn't possibly understand (which seems to be a totally pointless
> way of looking at the world)


Manculinity is not limited to men, nor feminity to women.
But males are expected to behave and look like men,
 and females are expected to behave and look like women!

I belive the key point is that our culture you are either
a "man" or a "woman".

You are not allowed to be a mixture of both or neither!!!!

Everyone you meet insist on putting you in one box or the other!
What is the first question about a new baby? "Is it a boy or a girl?"!
(At that point, what does it matter!!!)

This bipoler nature makes the experiences of men and women very
distinct and very different!

I you want to test this out how important our culture places
on males looking like men and women looking like woman
try:

For a Male: wear a woman's suit with hose and heels. No make up. no wig.

For a Female: wear a man's suit and shoes. Lots of make and done up hair.

Reaction:

For a Male: "What a pervert!"
For a Female: "What a fashion statment!" (Reference: Julie Roberts in an
  Amonnie suit and wingtips!)

Note the asymmetry of reaction!!!! Typical of how differently men
a women are treated!

Phase II:

For male: Add appropiate make up, wig and some training on how to walk and
talk.
For Female: No makup, man's hair cut, some training on how to walk and talk

Reation II:

For Male: Just another woman and treated as such!
For Female: Just another man and treated as such!

Phase III:

For Male: Live as a woman for a year.
For Femal: Live as a man for a year.

Compare experiences before and after transistion.

They are a lot of things men "just don't understand". They haven't the
experience, they have not been in the situation.
Man who have live as women, they would understand!

Conversly I am sure there are many things in the men's world that
women can't understand for simular reasons. As before, there is the
exceptions of women that have lived as men that would understand those
things.

> 
> [stuff deleted]
> 
> Have a nice day,
> 
> Steve Seidman
> seid@ee.cornell.edu
> 

"Oh Great Sprit! Grant that I do not critize my brother [or sister]
 until I have walked in their mocosins."

Love and hugs,

Celeste

P.S.  You won't find it in you local book store
      "To Be A Woman"
      by Jerry/Jerri McClain 1992
      Different Path Press
      ISBN 0-9626262-1-X


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