From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Kosher Honey - Still no answer
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:09:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.052346.7411@cbnews.cb.att.com> ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.182313.16933@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hem@maverick.col400.att.com (Hillel E. Markowitz) writes:
>>Rashi translates the "dvash" which Yonasan tasted in Shmuel I chapter 14
>>as cane
>>syrup and Tosfos in Meseches Brochos 36b speaks of sugar cane as
>>a source of dvash. The usage of dvash as bee honey can be found
>>in Devorim chapter 32 pasuk 13 (Haazinu) where Moshe Rabbeinu
>>speaks of obtainin dvash from a rock as well as Shimshon and his
>>riddle with the lion.
>
>Another poster claimed all references to dvash in the Torah were
>to fruit --  nectar or syrup or juice.
>
>Do you have a reference for Dvarim 32:13 being bee honey and not,
>e.g., from figs?
>
>The Rashi for this pasuk:
>  "it once happened that a man said to his son in Sichnin
>   Bring me dried figs from the cask.  He went and found the
>   honey flowing over its brim.  He said to him, But this is
>   a vat of honey [ not figs ] Then he said to him, Put your
>   hands deep into it and you will bring up figs from it
>   (Siphre)"
>
>My Rashi edition (A. M. Silbermann) has a note to this pasuk
>making it clear that even with figs hard as a rock, fruit
>honey would flow.
>-- 
>Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus


I checked a copy of the Mikraos Gedolos as well as the Encyclopedia
and found the following:

1. The Daas Zekainim Mibaalei Hatosfos says "That the bees make
honey in the cracks of the rock.  Also the dates grow on the rocks
and make honey".  It appears that the Daas Zekainim believes that
this reference is to both types of honey.

2. The Torah Temimah has a reference to the Toseftah Shabbos 89.
He also has a reference to Meseches Sotah 11b.

3. The Encyclopedia Talmudis in column 195 brings the pasuk and
says it is bee honey with a footnote pointing to Toseftah Shabbos
89 and the discussion in column 199.  It does not reference Rashi
or give further sources why it is understood as bee honey (at that
point).

4. The Encyclopedia Talmudis in column 199 says that from
Machshirim Perek 1 44 and the RMBM Tumas Ochlim Perek 1 Halacha 2
we learn that bee honey is one of the seven liquids that enable a
food to become tamei.  The source (in the Torah) for this is the
pasuk in Haazinu mentioned above.  The footnote points to the
Toseftah Shabbos 89 with a reference to the RMBM and the Rash.  It
then quotes a gemoro in Uktzin that there is an argument whether 
honey still in the hive can become tamei and whether as a food or a
liquid.

An argument is quoted between Bais Shammai and Bais Hillel on
exactly when (in removing the honey from the hive) the status
changes.

It appears then that this pasuk was assumed to deal with bee honey
in the time of the Mishnah (at least as far as the halacha goes).

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
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