From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (crystal)
Subject: Re: Sorry about that... ;<
Keywords: sponsor followup
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 03:07:44 GMT

In <1992Apr16.193259.11875@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:

>Steve Salter <ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:

>>joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap) remarks:

>>>In article <crystal.703126214@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (crystal) writes:

>>>>I can't stand the 12-step religions.
>>>
>>>A 12 step program is not a religion and if you had any experience in one
>>>you would know that. SO don't condem anything that you don't know about!!

>>Perhaps crystal does feel as if 12 step programs are "religions". You
>>(and I) don't consider them to be religions but that does not make her
>>opinion invalid.

>religion (ri-lij-en) 1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power
>recognized as the creator and governor of the universe. b. A particular
>integrated system of this expression: *the Hindu religion*. 2. The spiritual
>or emotional attitude of one who recognizes the existence of a superhuman
>power or powers. 3. An objective pursued with zeal or concientious devotion:
>*a collector might make a religion out of his hobby*.

>Of these, number 3 might apply to the Twelve Steps - but the same would 
>apply to golf, or watching Andy Griffth reruns - this is the slang part.

>Else, none of these definitions applies. 

>- 'does not make her opinion invalid' - we are not talking about opinions,
>we are talking about definitions. And thus her definition is invalid. Or
>at least, not English (notice distinct lack of smiley face)

>If she wishes to speak her own language, that is her buisness. I assume that
>she is posting to correspond with those of us who so speak English (notice
>return of smiley face 8-) so we all need to use the same words.

>to _attempt_ to forstall the things that I would have said when I was an
>agnostic - no. Those other definitions don't apply. See:

>religion (ri-lij-en) 1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power
>recognized as the creator and governor of the universe. 
>Nope. The Big Book states that belief is not at all required. Merely that
>we be 'willing to believe' - that's all we need. To resign from the debating
>society.

>b. A particular integrated system of this expression: *the Hindu 
>religion*. 

>Anybody who has read the book at all knows this one doesn't apply.


>2. The spiritual or emotional attitude of one who recognizes the 
>existence of a superhuman power or powers.

>Hmm - now _this_ one looks like it might fit - wait a minute. The phrase
>was 'twelve step religions'. The 12 steps quite often (but not always!)
>produce this result in those who follow them, but the steps are the program
>(all_ of the program - 'Here are the steps we took which are suggested 
>as a program of recovery') and the steps are not an 'attitude', they are,
>well, a program!B^)


>RETRACTION 8-)
>Now, if in someone's opinion the Twelve Steps fit one of these definitions,
>then that is an opinion about a definition - but first, read the book! |-(
>(8-)


>(everybody needs to do a little thumpin' now and then. 8-)

>love and service,

>jim p.

>-- 
>Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
>Huntsville,AL (205)544-8457


Hmm...if you want to put a definition to my opinion then I suppose you are
entitled.  I was not defining anything.  I stated an opinion. My OPINION is
that anything that asks for a BELIEF is a religion.  Especially when the books
are written to IMPLY that that belief is something OUTSIDE THE SELF. 
 
Again, it is my opinion. Not a definition.  Those who hae religious beliefs
and opinions have very valid beliefs and opinions. I simply do not share them.
No biggie...
  
;>
>*****!Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!*****