From: bpita@ctp.com (Bob Pitas)
Subject: Re: INFFINITI vs BMW
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 20:17:28 GMT

In article <BxGq0G.419@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mchaffee@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Rockville) writes:
>bpita@ctp.com (Bob Pitas) writes:
>
>>???  How come all statements of how BMWs are such good cars always just
>>say "That car could NEVER be as good as a BMW", but they never explain
>>why.  I have a theory that the reason is that people who drop a load
>>on a car like a BMW with slow acceleration, soft handling, and spartan
>>interiors have no way to justify it other than saying "No other car
>>could be like a BMW".  Of course thats because they got drawn in by some
>>rhetoric about it being a "driver's car" or whatever bullshit BMW is using
>>to sell their mediocre cars nowadays.  I've driven a 735, and it was just
>>about the most boring thing I've ever driven other than a cadillac,
>>which is supposed to be boring.  I've also roadraced M3s, and flat
>>out accellerated an M5 and 630csi (European spec) up on the highway,
>>with no problem.  They don't have acceleration, topspeed, or handling,
>>nor do they have as many luxury appointments as a Caddy.
>
>I'm afraid i must here ask your definition of "handling."  Last time I checked,
>I had never seen a bad-handling BMW. (I've driven all the current models 
>except the M-series and 850i.)

I drove both the Q45 and the 735 for a day.  I couldn't test the absolute
limits of the 735, other than taking an offramp at speed.  It felt mushy
and very uncomposed, because of the body lean.  It just felt 'soft'.
The Q45, on the other hand, was very composed and linear at the limit.
I felt very comfortable at the limit, because it communicated to me, through
the steering and seat, when it was going to break loose.  I did get the
Q into a 4 wheel drift at the end of the ramp...

>                                      The ultimate grip of the cars is not as 
>high as some others, but the overall feel and control of the steering and 
>suspension is un-equalled in anything I have ever driven, the Q45 included.  
>I don't remember the exact numbers, but the Q's ultimate grip is not much if 
>any higher than the 535i's.  I think a Mustang owner is perhaps not the most 
>qualified person to comment on what is mediocre, seeing as how you actually 
>put down money for a 30-year old chassis design with a big engine, wide 
>tires, and little else.  

Actually, the current generation of Mustang is 13 years old(!30), unibody 
(not chassis), and the motor, although big, puts out more torque than engines
with a litre more displacement.  And actually, the wide tires were added
by me later, since I couldn't keep all the torque my engine makes from 
spinning the tires all the time.  

>                         The BMW's aim is not to out-accelerate everything 
>else on the road; their aim is to build a car that is high-quality, 
>satisfying, and safe.  The overall "feel" of the cars is second-to-none; the 
>feel of the steering matches that of the brakes and other controls; the 
>suspension acts consistently and predictably in all circumstances; to use a 
>cliche the car is in harmony.  If the BMW is a mediocre, overpriced car, 
>why are BMW owners so loyal?  By loyal I don't mean they tell all their 
>friends what a nice car they have; I mean they go back and BUY ANOTHER BMW.  
>It happens all the time.  You'd be surprised how many former
>BMW owners that now have Lexinfinitis are planning to go back to BMW or already
>have.  BMW has been successful in this country for almost thirty years building
>cars for people who don't mind paying extra for a combination of ride,
>handling, acceleration, top speed, efficiency, and comfort unequalled by any 
>other automaker.  

That was my point!  They *don't* have good acceleration, handling, and top
speed for the price.  You can get much better performance from a number of
cars, and for less money!  You won't be able to say "I own a Bimmer", but
you'll have a car with the same (or in the case of the Q45 better) combination
of the characteristics you listed above for less money.

>                     Note I say "combination."  The BMW's seldom excel in one 
>area; this would entail compromising another.  Instead, the cars are more than
>adequate in all areas.  For some reason, it seems like the people who slam BMW
>are always people who don't own one, have never (or hardly) driven one, and
>have no idea what they're about.  And as an aside, if your idea of luxury is a
>Cadillac, I really feel bad for you.  You haven't lived.

I'd put an Allante with the Northstar engine against a MB 3 or 4 series car
anyday.  You sound like you haven't checked out the domestic luxury offerings
for a while...

>
>>What do you consider fun?  Thinking to yourself "I wish I had a car
>>with half the performance of a Q"?
>
>Actually, my idea of "fun" is a car I don't have to worry about driving vigor-
>ously.  I would be terrified to try a four-wheel drift in a Q45; the "mediocre"
>735i does them handily.  An aside:  Another thing I consider "fun" is ap-
>proaching a corner, double-clutching down into second, and powering through
>the corner, not having to worry if the car is going to decide that now is the
>time for a gearchange.  

You know those little numbers on the automatic transmission gear selector?
Believe it or not, they allow you to keep the car in a gear right until
the car overrides your selection because it may cause engine damage.  Since
the Q45 does not get it's maximum performance right at redline, you just
weren't driving it right.  I felt much more in control in the Q than in 
the 735.

>                        Obviously your idea of "fun" IS in fact just going
>really fast.  I'm so sorry.

Don't be sorry, just get outa the way!

>>>
>>Silence is achieved by building the car to extremely tight tolerances,
>>including engineering the motor to make as little vibrational noise as
>>possible.  Also the suspension can be engineered to reduce noise without
>>isolating the driver from road feel.  That's the beauty of the Q, it's
>>built to such close tolerances, yet with so much HP and Torque, that
>>it's one of the funnest cars to drive anywhere.
>>The silence is not created by insulating the driver from all noise, it's
>>silent because the car doesn't make noise in the first place.  Maybe BMW
>>could take a lesson or two from Nissan on build quality.
>
>I doubt that.  All the Q45's I have seen only have that famous Japanese build
>quality in the engine and chassis.  It's very difficult to have fun driving a
>car when all the interior parts don't even fit together straight, not to
>mention the interior panels just scream "Made in K-Mart."  Am I to understand
>that you don't WANT to hear the engine?

There was nothing at all wrong with the interior of either the Q or the 735
that I drove.  And the Q did not look 'plasticy' at all.  
Also, I don't think that the engine noise should 'intrude' on the occupants,
it should be available if you want to sample it, nothing more.

>
>I won't even bring up the issue of build quality.  I think we should wait about
>twenty years and see if the Lexinfinitis even come close.  My 1969 BMW with
>220,000 miles is still solid as a rock, still starts every morning, and is
>still fun to drive.  I will be somewhat surprised if the Lexus and Infiniti
>can do as well.



>-- 
>Michael T. Chaffee        |****COLORADO BOYCOTTER******|  ______    
>mchaffee@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu | Professional Slapthologist |  \    /     HATE
>Member, Universal Life Church, Sect of Loons           |   \  /  can never be
>Annoyance Theatre Platinum Member |     Evil Genius    |    \/  a FAMILY VALUE

Gee, and my upstairs neighbor just retired from his job as a diplomat 
stationed in Germany. His kids visited last weekend.  For some reason,
they both drove early 2002s.  They were both rusted (in the same places,
suggesting poor build quality) pieces of junk that rattled alot when the 
doors were closed.  If that's your type of customer commitment, it makes 
me glad that *I'm* not loyal to BMW!  


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        ___          
       / _ \                 '85 Mustang GT                        Bob Pitas
      /    /USH              14.13 @ 99.8                      bpita@ctp.com
     / /| \                  Up at NED, Epping, NH           (Cambridge, MA)

           "Laughed at by time, tricked by circumstances" -Peart
Disclaimer: These opinions are mine, obviously, since they end with my .sig!
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