HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Richard.V.Lamb@um.cc.umich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Drumcorps on Compu$erve
Date: 28 Jan 1993 16:56:51 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <01050023.ob91d1@chinchilla.cars.com>,
chinchilla!niel@cars.com (Niel Bornstein) wrote (Drumcorps on
Compu$erve):
 
]I was snooping around on Compu$erve yesterday and lucked into a burgeoning
]thread on drum corps in the Music/Arts Forum.  I thought about seeing
]if I could cross-post some of the messages.
 
Please do!  I would like to know if postings on the C$ Forums can be
"snipped" and sent.
 
]Wouldn't it be nice if we could gateway all the relevant UseNet, Compu$serve,
]and Prodigy newsgroups together?  Maybe a digest to those users without
]direct UseNet access?  I know OTL served this kind of purpose before
]r.a.m.d, but there are still people on Prodigy and Compu$erve (and
]AppleLink, SprintMail, MCIMail, America Online, etc.) who would love
]to have acces to the kinds of things we talk about.  Also, I know
]our scope is pretty much limited to college students and computer
]professionals due to the nature of UseNet, so we get a smaller focus
]of fans and participants in the activity than we could have.
]
]Any thoughts?
 
Yes, it would be *very* nice!  I am all in favor of getting all of
the drum corps fans (and members, alumni, and *especially* management)
in cyberspace talking to each other.  I think that having this newsgroup
has already speeded up the flow of information (even if it's in the form
of anecdotes, rumors, and opinions) and formed a community of corps
members and alumni that remains in close contact through the off season.
I think that expanding the community to include more fans, alumni, and
management (I think most members with net access are already reading)
would be quite helpful.  So much for the benefits; what about logistics?
 
I think that a gateway from r.a.m.d to a mailing list would be the way
to go.  The newsgroup rec.games.diplomacy uses the BITNET mailing list
Dipl-l this way.  All postings on r.g.d. are distributed by the
mailing list and all messages to dipl-l are posted on r.g.d.  Thus,
someone without USENET access can send a posting to <listname>@
<hostname>.bitnet and get all postings in their email.  The list does
not produce infinite loop problems.  If anyone is interested, I'll
ask the person who set up Dipl-l for particulars (or refer you to
him).  The only problem is traffic.  I had 60 (!) messages this
morning.  Imagine the traffic produced by the woodwinds in drumcorps
thread in your IN basket!
 
Now, how do we get the traffic from the other groups onto R.a.m.d.?
 
Vince
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
From: jerger@d0msu6.fnal.gov
Subject: oops (was Re: where is everyone)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:27:25 GMT
X-Posted-From: d0msu6.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
From: jerger@d0msu6.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: oops (was Re: where is everyone)
Date: 22 Jan 93 19:14:20 -0600
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
From: jerger@d0msu6.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: oops (was Re: where is everyone)
Date: 22 Jan 93 17:44:54 -0600
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
From: jerger@d0msu6.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: where is everyone
Date: 22 Jan 93 17:41:53 -0600
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab

In article <01050023.o893eh@chinchilla.cars.com>, niel@cars.com (Niel Bornstein) writes:
> 
> In article <1993Jan20.181634.1@d0gs03.fnal.gov> (rec.arts.marching.drumcorps), jerger@d0gs03.fnal.gov writes:
>>    By the way, message to Brad : speaking of SCV '87, I just got that
>>tape of the end snare cat who taped his walkman to his harness and 
>>recorded Finals ...
> 
> Hey, hey, hey, what are you doing passing confidential messages like
> this around.  Now _I_ want a copy.  And share with the rest of the group,
> too.

    Guilty as charged :-(...
    Is this related to the "give-gum-to-one-person-gotta-give-gum-to-everyone"
rule? :-) Sorry - if I posted it I guess I had better explain it... I have a 
tape of SCV '87 which was made by the end snare (I think - you can hear the tenor
line pretty well in parts) by taping a walkman to his harness. I don't know the
guy personally, so I don't know the whole story. As far as the tape goes,
it's basically what you'd expect: mostly snare but with occasional good
bits of horns, tenors, not much bass-wise; sounds not quite tickless
but pretty damn tight as far as one can tell (given that the sound is 
dominated by the guy whose harness it's on...). And of course there are the
usual strange noises that all drumlines make when we think no one can hear us.
    I don't know how interesting it really would be to someone, but if
you *really* want a tape of it, Niel (or others), I can make one if you send 
me a tape. Let me know via e-mail... Just don't overwhelm me! I don't have a
tapedeck of my own (yet)!


Steve

> 
> 
> Niel
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Niel M. Bornstein                              chinchilla!niel@cars.com |
> |                                            ...csn!sable!chinchilla!niel |
> |  _   _   _   ___                              71730.1056@compuserve.com |
> | | | | | | | | __)                          1352 North Morningside Drive |
> | | | | | | | | (_                                Atlanta, Georgia  30306 |
> | | |_| |_| |_| __)  productions          (404) 872-6883   (404) 551-8075 |
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
From: tmv@cupid.cc.bellcore.com (vandewater,thomas m)
Subject: Re: Blue Devils
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 17:51:39 GMT

In article <1jv74fINNrsh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cf123@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher Leigh Putnam) writes:
> 
> The Blue Devils can win a
> championship again.  
> Their drill is definetley the weakest in the top
> four, year in year out.  

The Blue Devils need to CHANGE to win
finals....you know what their problem is?  At a small stadium, they
look great!  (and hence they win the early contests)  However,
once you get into a championship stadium with a high press box,
their drill (or lack thereof) weakness shows in comparison to
the other corps.  For example, in Madison this year I saw BD low
during prelims and I thought they were fantastic.  I thought they should
be at or near the top.  However, in finals I saw Blue Devils high (no
puns please!).  Their drill did not cut it at all...I was saying to
myself after two minutes "can we march please? or is this park
and blow?"   I thought Madison should have passed them at finals.  

Comments?

Tom
---
From: dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Pat Metheny on Prodigy!
Date: 22 Jan 93 21:27:14 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu (HALLS BRADLEY F) writes:

>In article <1jkg5lINNarh@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> monroesa@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Scott A Monroe) writes:

>>> Does anyone remember the 1983 broadcast?  There were two co-hosts,
>>> Chuck Mangione (spelling?) and a woman choreographer with Broadway
>>> experience. It made for a very nice broadcast.

>Man, you guys must have seen a different broadcast than me. Chuck was great,
>but I really wanted to choke the woman. I thought she was very patronising,
>and insulted just about every colorguard on the field!

I agree with Brad.  That little "Yoda" woman was ridiculous not to
mention annoying.  She wet her pants over the Bridgemen's guard which
was not very good in '83 (or any other year for that matter).  
The whole 1983 broadcast is IMO the worst one to date.  The only 
exception might be '82 but only because they wouldn't shut up 
throughout.  The coverage itself was better in '82 than '83.



                                      Ken
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
From: scottm@helena.stat.uga.edu (scott mclure)
Subject: Re: If someone were to ask you...
Organization: UGA Statistics Department
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 23:26:45 GMT

When people ask me what drum corps is, I tell them its semi-professional
marching band, only more like competitive sports than halftime shows.
They generally get the idea, and some of them even want to know more.  I
try showing them the 1990 Cadets show, which usually captivates them.
I've never had anyone tell me it was anything less than interesting.
From: Richard.V.Lamb@um.cc.umich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Cymbal Lines
Date: 28 Jan 1993 14:55:44 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article 1993Jan26.180635.355@porthos.cc.bellcore.com, tmv@cupid.cc.bellcore.
com (H2O :-) wrote:
 
|>Do you remember when VK used an all-female
|>cymbal line that had great legs?  I had no idea if they were good...but
|>they looked great!!
<snip!>
...this was a cymbal line that has stuck in my mind through the years....
|>Anybody agree??????
 
(Quote the Trident commercial :-) I do! I do!  They certainly did look good!
And they seemed to be competent enough on the cymbals (I'm not a drummer, so
I can't be confident in judging their efforts).  Does anyone remember when
they marched?  I can't recall if it was 1985 or 1987?
 
Vince
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
From: rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu (Robert W Berry)
Subject: Re: oops (was Re: where is everyone)
Organization: Clemson University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:12:25 GMT

jerger@d0msu6.fnal.gov writes:

>    I don't know how interesting it really would be to someone, but if
>you *really* want a tape of it, Niel (or others), I can make one if you send 
>me a tape. Let me know via e-mail... Just don't overwhelm me! I don't have a
>tapedeck of my own (yet)!

Well, as long as you're offering... let me know where to send the tape.

BTW, I also have a tape which might be of interest to the net in
general.  It is a copy of the Brass GE tape that Suncoast got the night
they first broke 90 in 1985.  (Dr. Bernie Bags *really* tosses his
cookies on this one.  He gave us the highest score he had ever given in
GE Brass.)  It also has the pre-tour show and "Spider Love" on it.

I'll dub copies if anyone is interested.

Does anyone else out there have judge's tapes that they'd be willing to
share?

Later,
Bob

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-=- Bob Berry -=- Net-Guru's Inc.        ! rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu   -=-
-=- Teach them quick, before they think. ! 803-654-7623 || 803-656-1076 -=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From: monroesa@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Scott A Monroe)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Woodwinds (was Re: Cadets cymbal line)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 21:33:37 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
Distribution: world
Reply-To: monroesa@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Scott A Monroe)
NNTP-Posting-Host: o231-10.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <C1FBt4.B3J@apollo.hp.com> afo@hpwarht.wal.hp.com (Aaron  
Oppenheimer) writes:
> In article <21764@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, matthews@eecs.ucdavis.edu  
(Thomas W. Matthews) writes:
> I would not be upset to see woodwinds in Drum Corps. In fact, I can't 
> really see why anyone would be against it, except that "it's never been 
> done before." Keep it's identity? What *is* the identity of Drum Corps, 
> anyway? It certainly isn't the same as it's identity in the 70's.  Or 
> the 60's or the 30's. Why should drum corps maintain it's "identity" as 
> we define it today?

I completely disagree with this.  Drum Corps is exactly that.  Yea, the  
music has change, bugles now have three valves, percussion instuments have  
definately matured and the "art" form of Drum Corps is now there, but lets  
face it,  the reason I want to march is there are no woodwinds, Bb  
trumpets, etc.  If I wanted to march in a marching BAND I would.  Corps  
has evolved but the basics are still the same.  The old pieces are just  
used in new ways.  This is my opinion and I know several others that feel  
the same way.  

Woodwinds and the like have their definate musical value, but the football   
field is not one of them.  Everytime it rained at a band contest, football  
game or parade the first thing you would hear are the woodwinds bitching  
about ruining their horns.  We would want that attitude in corps would we?
 
--
Scott Monroe		(monroesa@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu)
Box   # 434
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology		
Terre Haute, IN  47803			
					Toledo Glassmen  1993
       					Mellophone
From: cv240@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael J. Fath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: test from Cleveland Freenet
Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:33:47 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Well, I've gotten a working Cleveland Freenet account.  Can I post
from it?

Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
From: rdorocke@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (rob lawrence dorocke)
Subject: Re: Woodwinds (was Re: Cadets cymbal line)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:26:41 GMT

In article <1k1mbhINN6gc@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> monroesa@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Scott A Monroe) writes:
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps

Personally, I believe that a small amount of NON-marching woodwinds would
be acceptible.  This would enable the corps to add different tone colors 
in the ballad sections of their shows.  I am strictly opposed to those
members marching, but 5-10 members in the pit area would be OK.

Just my opinion 

Rob 
(rdorocke@ucs.indiana.edu)
From: monroesa@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Scott A Monroe)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Drumcorps on Compu$erve
Date: 25 Jan 1993 21:23:39 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
Distribution: world
Reply-To: monroesa@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Scott A Monroe)
NNTP-Posting-Host: o231-10.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <01050023.ob91d1@chinchilla.cars.com> niel@cars.com (Niel  
Bornstein) writes:
> I was snooping around on Compu$erve yesterday and lucked into a  
burgeoning
> thread on drum corps in the Music/Arts Forum.  I thought about seeing
> if I could cross-post some of the messages.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if we could gateway all the relevant UseNet,  
Compu$serve,
> Any thoughts?
> 
One way to get accress to UseNet is:  if the computer user has a modem and  
there is a college nearby, try to get a small account at the college.  You  
can call the college with the modem and then use the UseNet Vax software  
over the modem.  Several of my friends use their modems to call our Vax  
and "NewsGraze" all the time.  (Of course the college has to have Internet  
access!).  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
--
Scott Monroe		(monroesa@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu)
Box   # 434
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology		
Terre Haute, IN  47803			
					Toledo Glassmen  1993
       					Mellophone
From: phelps1230@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Woodwinds in the pit?
Date: 26 Jan 93 03:19:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: iscsvax.1993Jan26.091932.10173
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <C1FnsI.Isn@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, rdorocke@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (rob lawrence dorocke) writes:
> In article <1k1mbhINN6gc@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> monroesa@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Scott A Monroe) writes:
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
> 
> Personally, I believe that a small amount of NON-marching woodwinds would
> be acceptible.  This would enable the corps to add different tone colors 
> in the ballad sections of their shows.  I am strictly opposed to those
> members marching, but 5-10 members in the pit area would be OK.

I hadn't thought of this application, and it seems reasonable to me, only....
I think it would have to be a pretty quiet ballad to be able to hear that few.
Are we going to amplify them? Arrangers would have to be sure to double those
parts, also...in case of a rain show. Can you imagine if Finals week was rainy?
> 
Brooke
From: matthews@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Thomas W. Matthews)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Cadets cymbal line
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:04:14 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Division of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, UC Davis

In article <h9n1Hl#o1c@atlantis.psu.edu>, AMR@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Adam M Ray) writes:
|> I just heard that the Cadets are abolishing their cymbal line for the '93
|> season so that they can add five spots, some to the guard and some to the
|> horn lines.  This may be a permanent thing, or it may just be for this
|> year.  Can anyone verify this?
|> 
|> An even more remote rumor that I have heard is that the Cadets might even
|> stop competing in DCI to do exhibition shows with expanded pit instruments
|> and, gasp, maybe even woodwinds in their shows.
|> 
|> Oh the two rumors, the first comes from a pretty reliable source, but the
|> second I am not so sure about.  Anyone who has information about these
|> things would you please post.  Thanks...
|> 
|> adam ray      ray@crayola.cs.psu.edu
|>               AMR@ecl.psu.edu

I saw an issue of DCI Today in which the director of the Cadets
wrote in favor of considering adding electronic instruments
and woodwinds and etc. to the drumcorps activity.  This was in 
response to a letter urging that the activity keep its identity
and not make those changes.

Without the article in front of me, I'm afraid to quote it here.
Maybe we could have some discussion about a response to it?

Tom Matthews
From: ddm@wpi.WPI.EDU (David D Marshall)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Cadets cymbal line
Date: 25 Jan 1993 14:09:16 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <1993Jan22.173848.16254@midway.uchicago.edu> stderic7@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (Eric Camburn) writes:
>In article <h9n1Hl#o1c@atlantis.psu.edu> AMR@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Adam M Ray) writes:
>>I just heard that the Cadets are abolishing their cymbal line for the '93
>>season so that they can add five spots, some to the guard and some to the
>>horn lines.  This may be a permanent thing, or it may just be for this
>>year.  Can anyone verify this?
>>
>Other rumor deleted.
>
>I can't verify the rumor about the Cadets but in a similar vein
>I thought I saw someone (perhaps Brad?) post earlier that the Cavies
>were going sans cymbals in '93.  Is this a trend?  It looks like 
>the Cavies may have added a tenor or two in place of the cymbals.
>I also thought someone posted earlier that SCV was going
>without cymbals as well.  Alas, the carriers of the brass disks
>may be a dying breed.  I was always impressed by cymbal players
>who could do cartwheels while holding their cymbals.  In a similar
>vein, I'd be interested in hearing people discuss theories about
>deciding on the numbers of people to put into each position.  
>For example, how/why do corps decide to go with 8 rather than
>10 snares, or 6 rather than 8 contras (aside from the fact
>that those are as many people that the corps can get for
>those positions)? 

I was the one who told the SCV story, but I've been sent to the whipping post
for saying it |).  I hope Cadets to drop their cymbal line because I thought
that SCV and Cadets had the two best.  I believe that usually Cavies don't
have a cymbal line, the have some people (I don't know who) slap some plates
once in a while.

--David

>  Eric Camburn				abaeric7@polis.spc.uchicago.edu    



-- 
 Spirit '88      |"So get off your butt and ride."      |     _,-~o     |
 BAC    '93      |"It's the motor that wins the races." |    _-\_<,     |
                 |               E-mail ddm@wpi.wpi.edu |   (*)/'(*)    |
From: derek@comlab.gatech.edu (Derek Cook)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Woodwinds in Corps
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:20:44 GMT
Organization: GTRI Communications Lab

As a saxophone player and a die-hard drum corps fan, I feel I must comment
on this issue.  I totally disagree with the inclusion of woodwind instruments
in a corps.  The fact that a corps is special and unique is because it is 
very different from a marching band.  Granted the general idea is the same, but
the feel of the activity is very different.  I enjoy the uniqueness that 
symphonic music takes on in an all-brass/percussion medium such as drum corps.
As for a marching program, I do not like the mixture of brass and woodwind.
Remember, I marched a tenor sax for 4 years in high school.  We played several
pieces performed by the Blue Devils and the sound, while good, did not have the
same feeling (of course we were not as talented as BD!!).

Also, the use of woodwinds would hamper the visual program.  I just love the
look of all those silver bugles tilted at the box.  How can a titlted sax, 
clarinet or flute achieve the same visual effect?  I agree with an earlier
poster about the uniformity of the bugles.  I worked as a rehearsal assistant
to my old high school band this past fall, and from a non-playing perspective,
the woodwind players really don't make much of a visual contribution, not to
mention a playing contribution.  A given number of woodwinds cannot match the
power of the same number of bugles (or brass for that matter).

I think the image of drum corps would seriously be damaged if woodwinds are
added to the groups.  If this happens, we will be left with nothing but high
quality marching bands.

Derek
--
 Derek Cook                          | Blue Devils Drum and Bugle Corps  
 26303 Georgia Tech Station          | Director: David Gibbs              
 Georgia Institute of Technology     |    6 Time DCI World Champion:       
 Atlanta, GA 30332                   |     '76, '77, '79, '80, '82, '86   
 E-mail: derek@comlab.gatech.edu     | 1992 Reults: 4th Place, High Aux.   
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
From: scottm@helena.stat.uga.edu (scott mclure)
Subject: Re: Woodwinds (was Re: Cadets cymbal line)
Organization: UGA Statistics Department
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:43:40 GMT

Bob:  Singing is usually done by the entire corps, or at least the vast
majority of members.  You could adjust the brass volume so that the w.w.
could be heard, but that would be adjusting your show simply to use an
instrument that isn't necessarily needed.
	As far as the idea of switching instruments, it's difficult
enough for many corps to find horn players to march in the first place.
Trying to find people who can play w.w. AND bugles would be very trying
for a small corps.  And we already have enough distance between the top
8 corps and the rest of the activity, we don't need to put any more
distance in there.
	While I'm on the subject of adding things, electronic gear in
the pit is out for me too.  I simply go back to the old rule: if you
can't carry it in a parade, you can't use it.  We've gone far enough
with the vast amount of pit equipment used already, let's not get
ridiculous.

Scott McLure

Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
From: bjh42543@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian J. Haag)
Subject: Re: Blue Devils (was Re: MY 1993 Predictions)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:40:13 GMT

Mike made some excellent observations on BD.  I think that the hardest problem
the corps has to face now is coming up with a visual program that is competitivewith Cadets, Star, et al.  The problem lies in the fact that Blue Devils don't 
play music with near the complexity that the other groups do.  That is NOT a 
flame.  BD is by far my favorite corps.  I think that they have gone the right
direction in the last few years by testing the outer limits of big band reper-
toire.  This is one area that they may be able to do some visual experimentationwith.

Flame shield:  on.

-- 
    Brian J. Haag             |  "System + Spirit = Success" -- Gary Smith
    bjh42543@uiuc.edu         |                                          
    Senior, Dept. of Finance  |   My opinions don't necessarily represent      
    University of Illinois    |   what *I* think, much less anyone else.