From: hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:01:25 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

Lucio de Re writes: 

> hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
> : 
> : 
> : According to the newspaper this morning, Nkosi Sikelel i'Afrika will be 
> : sung at the soccer game between South Africa and Zambia on Sunday - I don't
> : hear too many people expressing outrage at the insensitivity of singing a 
> : song which alienates a large section of South Africa's white population. 
> : Double standards perhaps (eh Scott)? Personally I think its cool, they can 
> : sing what they like.
> 
> I like our informed commentators. Do you, Hardy, feel alienated by a prayer
> that pleads with God to bless Africa? Even the atheist in me has little to
> groan about that. The racist in you, however, may well feel slighted that
> such a prayers should not be sung exclusively in Afrikaans, the language
> the Bible was written in, the language spoken by the God's chosen people,
> to replace those vermin Jews who had the audacity to kill his only Son,
> even if only in fulfilment of a prophecy!

You're confused, Lucio, I *really* have no objections to Nkosi Sikelel i'Afrika
- to tell you the truth, I far prefer it to "Die Stem" (for aesthetic reasons).
As far as your blithering about Afrikaans being the language of God's chosen and
the Jews being vermin, its all very amusing, but more than a tad silly -
perhaps you just had a bad day, I dunno.... I most certainly am not an
Afrikaner, and nor am I particularly attracted to Afrikaner nationalism or any
other aspects of Afrikaner culture. "Die Stem" means absolutely nothing to me -
I simply pointed out that to some South Africans it is very important. 

You most certainly are applying double standards when you allow one section of
South Africa's population to sing the songs of their choice, and at the same
time come down on another section for being "insensitive" when they do the
same. That was the only point I was trying to make - I have no personal
interests in the matter (I don't give a damn for flags and anthems anyway), and
other than the fact that it raises some interesting moral problems, I find it
quite boring. As far as feeling alienated goes, I'm very fond of cultural
diversity, and fully support the cultural expression of black South Africans -
far from making me feel alienated, it makes me feel more at ease. This, of
course, still doesn't mean that Afrikaner culture must be censored - they
should wave the flags and sing the songs of their choice.

> And for those of you who may not have as much of a racist streak as our
> great whites at UCT (multiple ambiguity - there may be a better term -
> intended), I recall may years ago, when the first rays of verligte thinking
> were dawning, Radio 5 played a very poignant English translation of Nkosi.
> 
> Whether the DJ was aware of what he had just played or not, he made it
> clear that he had been positively moved by the song. So was I, it was one
> of those song renditions that gives you goose pimples. Well, it was too
> early. Today the same song would be a great hit with a fair number of
> educated whites, enough to make the singer(s) a good bit of money.
> 
> Not knowing Nkosi well at all, only some hint (I seem to recall the title
> was a literal translation) after the song revealed its nature to me. I
> suspect others, more observant or more knowledgeable, and, like Hardy,
> alienated by the audacity of blacks to request God's blessing (maybe
> they should ask the NGK to intercede for them, as they have insisted
> in doing for the past 300 years), must have complained to the SABC, as I
> have certainly never heard the song again.

Oh dear, oh dear....what a silly pluck you're on. I know Nkosi fairly well, I
can imagine it may sound quite good on the radio, and I have no objections to
them playing it more often. I can't work out where you got this crap about
"blacks having the audacity to ask for God's blessing" from - its good humour
though...
 
> Now, Hardy, you and your ANC-bashing friends please try to explain to me
> your logic. I am quite confident, specially in view of this particular
> posting, that you have _never_ stood up, nor would you have even remotely
> considered standing up for blacks' right to sing Nkosi when it was banned.
> 
> AND YOU HAVE THE AUDACITY TO TALK ABOUT DOUBLE STANDARDS!

Well, unfortunately, I've never had the oppurtunity to "stand up" for blacks' 
right to sing Nkosi, but I will grab the chance if it ever does come my way. It
may interest you, though, to know that I have sung Nkosi before - does that 
count?

Yes I do talk about double standards....and you just talk nonsense!

> : What has emerged from the anthem and flag controversy is the fact that South
> : Africa isn't a nation, and probably won't ever be one. Everybody seems to 
> : take
> 
> Good news, I suppose. But you're quite right, hence the "National" Party
> promoting white supremacy in Africa. You are the victim of their propaganda
> as well as a medium for it. Italy, where I come from, is no more a "nation"
> than South Africa, in this distorted perception. We speak different dialects,
> we have differing "cultures" (another favourite euphemism) and often are the
> butt of each other's jokes (Sicilians - terroni - in Milan, polentoni in
> Palermo, scugnizzi - Neapolitans - in Milan _and_ Palermo).

Well, I've never had any time for the idea of white supremacy, but if you think
I'm a victim of Nat propoganda, I guess I'll just have to take your word for
it. What I meant by there not being a South African nation is just that the
country's society is very fractured, and that its citizens will never gel
together sufficiently well to make a unit.

So you're an Iti eh? Make good pizza?

> Quite honestly, if _my_ freedom of speech (or _yours_) has to be curbed so
> that our descendants can attain real democracy, so be it. In fact I'll
> go so far as to help enforce these restrictions if I can be convinced
> of their (temporary) necessity. And don't bother to retort that once
> entrenched, curbs cannot be removed. The USSR and South Africa both are
> examples of toppled governments.

Now this spaghetti-muncher wants to remove freedom of speech - George Orwell
used to write books about people like you...

> : for granted the idea that the political leaders should be promoting unity 
> : among South Africans - and finding national symbols and songs forms part 
> : of this. It's really very stupid (and possibly quite dangerous as well), 
> : what should be promoted in this country at the moment is political and 
> : ethnic tolerance - people should be allowed to adopt the songs and symbols 
> : of their choice, regardless of the attitude of the majority of South 
> : Africans.
> 
> ... regardless of the seething violence on which they are based, regardless
> of the deaths they cause, regardless of years of oppression and its effect
> on the majority in this wretched country.

You Italians have always had such a weakness for melodrama - it shines through
in your opera! I really can't see how allowing 70000 rugby fans to wave silly
white and orange flags is going to bring all this burning shit and brimstone
down upon our heads - I think you took Dante too seriously...
 
> As a parting shot - strange, I don't feel any better after this tirade than
> I did before,

You don't? I'm disappointed...why don't you take two Disprins and e-mail me in
the morning

> you'd think it would be a relief to be able to get something
> like this off my chest, perhaps knowing nobody's really listening is what
> makes it feel so futile - sing your fucking songs, Hardy; and when you do,
> try to remember what the nats have done in the shadow of their flag.

No need to get so bitter honey....if it makes you feel any better, I promise
not to sing "Die Stem" or wave the South Afican flag for the next 24 hours -
reasonable eh? As a matter of fact, I won't even wear my khaki underpants for
the whole of next week....
 
> Remember the group areas act, I only saw the devastation of District 6 from
> the early seventies on. Remember the Immorality Act, Hardy, if love is
> within your abilities; my first infatuation was with a coloured girl and
> caused both of us great anguish. 

What a shame...and to think that you were probably her first "Latin
lover"...siestog!


Well, cheers for now honey-bun...I've really enjoyed this!

Hardy Hulley
UCT