HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: talbott@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Walter Talbott)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: COPE
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:50:07 GMT
Reply-To: talbott@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Walter Talbott)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

This is in response to Bob Haar's comments on the COPE program. It sounds
like the Lost Lake Scout Reservation program is absolutely super. Does
anyone out there know of a similar program on the east coast?

Also I'm a new BSA troop leader and would like to attend adult training
in developing an in-house COPE training program. Does anyone know where
I can receive this training. I would be willing to travel.

I'm currently planning to take a couple of Tom Browns wilderness courses
in New Jersey but he is back-logged so I have about a year wait.

My whole plan is basically to get our scouts back in touch with our
natural surroundings and will be jumping at every opporunity to accomplish
this.

Thanks for the cooperation.

Walt Talbott
From: waltoml@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: COPE
Date: 21 Nov 92 05:40:43 CST
Distribution: usa
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <27720@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, talbott@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Walter Talbott) writes:
> This is in response to Bob Haar's comments on the COPE program. It sounds
> like the Lost Lake Scout Reservation program is absolutely super. Does
> anyone out there know of a similar program on the east coast?
> 
> Also I'm a new BSA troop leader and would like to attend adult training
> in developing an in-house COPE training program. Does anyone know where
> I can receive this training. I would be willing to travel.

ONLY LOCAL COUNCILS can conduct COPE courses.  Individual Troops/Posts
cannot.  This is a BSA policy and is done so to protect you and the 
BSA from liability caused from Scouts' participation. 

Councils send their COPE camp personnel to a regional National Camping
School (NCS) course, which is conducted by risk management and outdoor
personnel from Philmont Scout Ranch as well as from the four Regional
offices.  You can also go to Philmont and attend the COPE DIRECTORS' 
Course, but again, when your return, you will be expected to work at 
the Council's summer camp facility as a COPE Course Director.   NCS 
certification is good for five years, but my understanding is that
COPE personnel are good for three years. 

As far as I know from a recreational standpoint (being a rec
professional) there are several other organizations that conduct
COPE-like courses.  

> 
> I'm currently planning to take a couple of Tom Browns wilderness courses
> in New Jersey but he is back-logged so I have about a year wait.
> 
> My whole plan is basically to get our scouts back in touch with our
> natural surroundings and will be jumping at every opporunity to accomplish
> this.

Then you are looking at summer camp and not COPE to allow you this
opportunity.  Each Region now has at least one "regional outdoor
adventure base". Check with the Council office to get the address of
the closest one to your Council or send me e-mail and I can find it
for you. 
 
> 
> Thanks for the cooperation.
> 
> Walt Talbott

Walt:  COPE is a great course, but like I stated earlier, it is also a 
dangerous course from a risk management standpoint.  It was not
designed for younger Scouts.  Nor is it designed to be a total Troop
experience.  

Not trying to scare you away, but the cost of sending a boy through a
COPE course could be spent in additional outings instead. 

I couldn't see where you posted from, but I am sure that there is a 
Council close to you that *does* have a COPE course.  Go to their
camp, look at the course and then make your own mind up. 

Settummanque!

Mike Walton
Greenwood, Kentucky
From: rickcl@pogo.wv.tek.com (Rick Clements)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Message distribution (was Project C.O.P.E.)
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:01:40 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

In article <92321.161415NRNOBLE@MIAMIU.BITNET> NRNOBLE@MIAMIU.BITNET (Nick Noble) writes:
>>2. Limit you article to the american net.

>How does one do this?

Add the following line to your header:

Distribution: usa

Other useful distributions are na (North America) and the two letter abbrev.
for your state.  There may be others in your area.  For example PDX, will limit
messages to the Portland/Vancouver area.

Since the orignal message was sent world wide, I sent the reply that way also.
I don't know the the distributions outside of the USA, but you site admin- 
istrater should know.  
-- 
Rick Clements (RickCl@pogo.WV.TEK.COM)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: fogarty@sir-c.jpl.nasa.gov (Tim Fogarty)
Subject: boys coming to grips with their sexuality
Organization: JPL, Space Imaging Radar Software Group
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 02:10:19 GMT


In article <2648@cronos.metaphor.com>, emg@Metaphor.COM (Mike Greenawalt) writes:
|>|> In article <1992Nov3.170807.3262@usl.edu>, mxc1059@usl.edu (Carroll Matthew) writes:
|>|> >What about starting a gay boyscout troop?  Would that work?
|>|> >:

I thought "separate but equal" was thrown out in the 50s.

|>
|>At what age does the typical gay male know that he is gay?  I would think that
|>at ages 11-12-13 or so, boys are just beginning to find out who/what they are.

For most gays and lesbians, its when you become sexually active.  This may be
in early adolecence.  It may be much latter.  What age do straights become
sexual active ?  Some very early, most in their late teens and early 20s,
some much later.

Some boys may know that they are gay while still being a virgin.  
However, they would have to be very introspective.  I would guess that
most boys (gay and straight) discover that they have a "sexuality" at age 13-15.
Times may be different from when I was 15 (17 years ago), but while most gay
adolecents may realize that they are "different" and don't quite fit in, I 
would not expect them realize that what they are feeling to be expressions
of their homosexuality.  However, with homosexuality being so much more 
visible, (from the evening news to Rosanne) perhaps kids are becoming aware
at an earlier age.

|>I doubt they can make a lifetime decision at that age.

What lifetime decision ?  Of course my arguements are based on the believe that
one is born with a sexual orientation.  This orientation is not a true/false
situation, but a range (say Kinsey 0-6), where some people are born 0s: 
completely heterosexual; some people are born 6s: completely homosexual; and
everyone else in between.  Those in between may choose to be heterosexual,
homosexual, or bisexual.



How does sexuality in general affect scouting ?  When boys start dating 
are they more likely to drop out of scouting ?  What type of boys are 
more likely to stay in scouting until the age of 18 ?  

What this is leading up to is: 

Lets assume that 10% of the boys that join scouting at the age
of 11 are biologically homosexual. Is it likely that 10% of the 15-18
year olds are biologically homosexual ?  Or will it be more or less than 10% ?
Most boys drop out of scouting long before they are 18.  In today's society, 
with pressures of dating and pressures of not fitting in, are biologically 
homosexual boys more likely to stay in scouting?  Are they more likely to 
make Eagle ?  


--
Tim Fogarty
Sys Man and Sys Admin for the EGSE in the POCC at JSC for SRL-1, STS-59
FOGARTY@SIR-C.JPL.NASA.GOV
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca (Jason Michael Farmer)
Subject: Re: Attacting Rovers
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:49:38 GMT

phill@bohra.cpg.oz.au (Phill Solomon) writes:

>Well it is best if firstly you have joint activities with you Venturer unit(s)
>so they can see the fun you have and are interested in coming up. It also
>helps dispell any myths that Venturer leaders my have (sorry George). Cub
>nights etc and taking the Scouts abseiling is also good group PR for any crew.

>Outsiders, advertising. Quite a few shopping center display happern from time
>to time around here, also in community halls have Rover posters etc.

>Yours in Scouting,

>Phill Solomon

I've found those methods to work well.  During the B.P. Week our district
has displays in the malls, and this year my rover crew will definatly be there.

Does Australia carry the book by B.P. called "Rovering to Success"?  I'm 
trying to find where I can get a copy.

Jason Farmer
11th Sur-Del "ERrant Knights" Rover Crew


-- 
Jason Farmer                 |  Daisemi'in rhhaensuriuu
jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca        |      meillunsiateve
Simon Fraser University      |           Rh'e Mnhei'sahe yie ahr'en:
Burnaby, British Columbia    |  
Canada                       |   Mnahe afw'ein qiuu;
                             |      rh'e hweithnaef
                             |           mrht Heis'he ehl'ein qiuu.
From: hilding@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Hilding Holroyd)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Sad News - Green Bar Bill is dead
Summary: PROOF, please
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:50:37 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer ,Oceanport NJ

In article <1dvprlINN4cd@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
> Does anyone else find it ironic that GBB, perhaps the most well-known
> and respected member of the Scouting organization since LBP, was gay?
> keith

Let's have some PROOF, here and not just flames. I have seen accusations
that Baden-Powell was gay. Now I see one that "Green Bar Bill" was gay.
_I don't buy it!!_  No one has the right to make such accusations.

Enough, already!
-- 

US MAIL: Hilding W. Holroyd - CONCURRENT COMPUTER CORP.(Ex MASSCOMP,Interdata)
FAX: 908-870-5952    2 Crescent Place, Oceanport NJ 07757   PH 908-870-4558 
UUCP:  rutgers.edu!ocpt!holroyd    or   Internet:  holroyd@ocpt.ccur.com
From: an_ind21@oswego.oswego.edu (J. homer)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: gays in scouting
Date: 21 Nov 92 18:50:02 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: oswego state

Dear sirs,
	I would like to ask a very simple question.  Where in the scout oath 
or law does it state that "A Scout is strait."?
Where in any of scoutings basic principles does it imply that a scout
may not be a homosexual?
I myself am not a Homosexual and have no desire to engage in homosexual
practices.  On the other hand I have met several Homosexuals, both male 
and female, and it was not until I was told that they were homosexuals 
that I had any Idea.
Just because a person is a Homosexual does not mean they are evil or out
to convert the world.
If a gentleman is a gifted leader and the best scoutmaster you have ever
seen. How does the fact that he is Gay change his Ability's?
Does he stop being a good leader? Does he no longer teach scouting principles?
Many of you may argue that if they are gay they will Molest their scouts.
This is just plain stupid...
I have met people who are perfectly straight, and still molest scouts.

I would chalenge any of you shortsited narrowminded idiots who feel that 
I am wrong to respond with PROOF. Not speculations feelings or ideas, PROOF.

Yours in Scouting

							J. HOMER
										Eagle Scout '91
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Stan, Stan, Stan.....
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:54:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BxxB24.5st
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito) writes:

[...]
>I should have said that the CONTENTS of the letter remain the
>property of the author, and cannot be made public without the
>author's consent.
[...]

This is ambiguous. To the best of my understanding here is want is
legal and illegal (disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer).

Legal: Recipient shows, loans, or rents the letter "privately" to others.
Illegal: Recipient "publically" exhibits the letter.
Legal: Recipient publishes a paraphrase or summary of the letter.
Illegal: Recipient publishes "long" excerpts from the letter.
Legal: Recipient publishes "short" excerpts from the letter.

- Carl

ANNOTATED REFERENCES

=================
law/copyright.act.pointer
=================
* Copyright -- U.S. Law -- Full text -- Pointer

If you have access to gopher, you can access the text of the U.S.
Copyright Act.

gopher fatty.law.cornell.edu
   -->    9.  Legal Information Institute/
        -->    1.  Copyright Act/
-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: fogarty@sir-c.jpl.nasa.gov (Tim Fogarty)
Subject: Re: Rec.scouting change
Organization: JPL, Space Imaging Radar Software Group
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 02:23:15 GMT


In article <KIRAVUO.92Nov21204057@lesti.hut.fi>, 
kiravuo@hut.fi (Timo Kiravuo) writes:

||>In article <hunter-201192130641@158.185.20.241> 
hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter) writes:

|>>We have been asked to vote for a change to the rec.scouting net.  
|>
|>I am not pleased with the current group. The internal policy of
|>BSA dominates the group and causes any interesting information to
|>sink among the signal noice, therefore causing most of use
|>foreigners to stay out.

how about rec.scouting.bsa and rec.scouting.everyone_else

--
Tim Fogarty
Sys Man and Sys Admin for the EGSE in the POCC at JSC for SRL-1, STS-59
FOGARTY@SIR-C.JPL.NASA.GOV
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Project C.O.P.E.
From: Nick  Noble <NRNOBLE@MIAMIU.BITNET>
Date: Monday, 16 Nov 1992 16:14:15 EST
Organization: Miami University - Academic Computer Service

>2. Limit you article to the american net.
 
How does one do this?
From: hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Rec.scouting change
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:44:19 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona

We have been asked to vote for a change to the rec.scouting net.  I'm not
sure what has driven us to this point, but I am pleased with the current
cross-section of people and subjects.

As Scout Leaders, regardless of age and position, we need a broad range of
topics for discussion.  Purpose and policy is as important as Specific
program helps.  Diversity will not distort our net, but rather, give us 
strength.

I, for one, have enough different net subjects to review without adding
more to my normal search group.

Let's stay together and practice what we teach:  Be a Team. Vote NO.



Bill Hunter
Scoutmaster, The Vertical Edge, Arizona
From: waltoml@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Posting private email..
Date: 20 Nov 92 00:43:13 CST
Distribution: usa
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <1992Nov18.183131.26919@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
> Carl M. Kadie writes:
> 
>>>I should have said that the CONTENTS of the letter remain the
>>>property of the author....
> 
>>This is ambiguous. To the best of my understanding here is want is
>>legal and illegal (disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer)....
> 
> Let's not lose sight of the fact that there was no legal issue
> involved.  It was strictly a netiquette issue; Dominick posted
> my private e-mail to him without my consent or knowledge.
> -- 
> Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
> UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
> Summit, NJ
> smk@usl.com

Stan et all.....

If I post something here, I have waived my right NOT to keep it from
going other places...I personally feel very humbled that several
people use our postings as basis for discussion in their own
communities away from the computerized lists and the mailing.

If I send something to you, it becomes your property.  You may,
despite my personal appeal to you, print it and share it with whomever
you wished to; store it and read it again at your own leisure; extract
it and use it in a paper (as long as you attritt the source of your
comment to me, otherwise it becomes libel (or is it the other?? I
forget sometimes (*scratching bald spot on head*) ); or kill it. 

Therefore, if Dominick decides that the posting you sent to him should
be "public knowledge", there's not much you can do about it.  

If *I* sent you or anyone else "private" e-mail, I assume that you
will share it with others and if you wish, you may (as has been done
to a lot of my postings in the past on other forums) resent it or
extract it for your own usage.  It's just like if I sent you a piece
of paper with words on it. 

I look at electronic mail as an extension of the paper product we are
trying to emulate. When I send something to you, it no longer becomes
my property...it is yours.  Likewise, when you send something to me,
it becomes my property to do with it as I see fit.  

Unfortunately, Dominick forgot temporarily that "A Scout is Courteous"
and should have thought about the illustration of the "golden rule"
(which I have hanging in my office room, looking at me as I type
this--"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" ) before he
posted your private posting.  

IMHO, this is a standoff...so could we please talk about more
"serious" issues like service stars and years-of-service pins instead
please??

Settummanque!

Mike Walton  (WALTOML@WKUVX1.bitnet)
Greenwood, Kentucky



Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: pads@ravel.udel.edu (Stephen J. Padbury)
Subject: Re: Rec.scouting change
Organization: Here?! You Must Be Kiddg!!!
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:30:19 GMT

	I think the suggestion of breaking up the newsgroups is probably
a very good one. I have noticed that the policy discussions have buried
everything else. Today when I turned on theewsreader, i had 45 unread
articles. 5 on activities, 10 on the splitting and 30 on various
policy discussions. I think that the policy is forcing out everything
else. If I hadn't noticed the vote on the split, I was planning on 
unsubscribing from this group because I don't want to have to sort through
so many policy discussions to find the few useful articles on activities.
	Only MHO,
		Stephen J. Padbu
pads@ravel.udel.edu

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kuchan@rtsg.mot.com (Joseph M. Kuchan)
Subject: Pinewood Derby Tracks
Summary: Recommendations wanted on Pinewood Derby Tracks
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: global
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:02:35 GMT

Our pack (Pack 222 of the Northwest Suburban Council in Des Plaines, IL.) is
going to replace our Pinewood Derby Track this year. We are probably going to
buy one from one of the outfits that advertises in the back of Boy's Life.
We are seeking a four lane track and will build our own finish line circuit.
Does anyone have any experience (good or bad) with any of these companies that
they will share? Any advice on what to look for (or look to avoid) in a track?

Thanks in advance!


-- 
Joe Kuchan,    Motorola - Wireless Data LAN Division	*
3205 Wilke Road, Arlington Heights, IL 60004		*
kuchan@whitefish.rtsg.mot.com				*
tel: (708) 632-7193	fax: (708) 632-6816		*
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Stan, Stan, Stan and Violation of Netiq
Date: 19 Nov 1992 17:29:13 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com

>ENOUGH.  Let's restore a modicum of decency to this group, PLEASE!


Look Keith,

As long as the BSA disciminates against a minority group, who gives
a damn whether or not this alias maintains the illusion of 
"A Scout is ...Friendly, Courteous, Kind,...".

You can pretend all you want, it won't change the fact that the BSA
is in jepardy of becoming ossified and obsolete.

Greg
From: v114qgu3@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Charles T Lau)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: 13th Point
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:08:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


	Actually, if I remember correctly, the thirteenth point according to
BP was "A scout is not a fool".  But, he figured that if a scout was smart
enough to obey the first twelve, he wouldn't need the thirteenth.

Chuck Lau
Eagle '91
From: waltoml@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Project C.O.P.E.
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:31:24 CST
Summary: Response to inquiry about Project COPE and an explaination for those no
Keywords: Ropes, COPE, safety
Distribution: world
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <Bxt0Dw.DLH@cs.vu.nl>, wlieftin@cs.vu.nl (Liefting W) writes:
> rascherm@mcs213a.cs.umr.edu (Robert L Aschermann) writes:
> 
>>I am heavily involved with Project C.O.P.E. at Camp Geiger, St. Joseph, MO.  
>>I am extremely interested in talking to others involved in C.O.P.E.  
>>Camp Geiger was the home of the first BSA C.O.P.E. course 10 years ago.
>>I would like to find out what has happened to the program since then, and how
>>it has changed.
> 
> One question: Next time you post such an article, will you
> 1. Be more clear, or
> 2. Limit you article to the american net.
> 
> There's hundreds of readers outside america who will not understand a bit of
> this, including myself.

Wouter:
COPE is something that is unique to American Boy Scouting programs.
Sorry if you don't understand it, but the person posting it had no
idea that COPE was only used in the US Scouting Program. 

PROJECT COPE:  Challenging Outdoor Physical Encounters (I am sure)...a
set of obsticles designed to enhance patrol unity and leadership
abilities of the patrol, the basis for Scouting.  It is conducted
using ropes and other natural (as much as possible) "events" strewn
out in a large area, typically at Boy Scout Summer Camps and the
regional Outdoor Adventure Bases. In order to have a course at your
Summer Camp, it must be built to an exacting National standard and
there must be at least two COPE Instructors, certified by the Boy
Scouts of America through it's National Camping School.  There should
be a professional executive also certified to conduct the course, also
by attending the COPE Course Instructor course at NCS. 

COPE Courses are a lot of fun for the kids involved..a pain in the
butt end for the Councils and the professional staffs.  They are very
dangerous courses and extreme stupidity resulting in several major
injuries in several courses have made the BSA to rethink the COPE
course' worth in the past five years.  Yet, the number of Councils
that have a course keeps going up because of the "Smith and Jones"
factor (council Smith has one, so we in Council Jones must have one
and a high ropes course at that...).  

COPE Directors that are certified are in *high demand* because the
course carries with it more stress than the other major jobs at camp. 
As a result, lots of directors and staff members "get lost" soon after
the summer season is over. 

That's all I know....

Settummanque!


> 
> Wouter Liefting
> wlieftin@cs.vu.nl
Newsgroups: rec.scouting