From: tkelly@unix2.tcd.ie (Rincewind)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: Srun Magicalness reisited.
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:26:48 GMT
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin


 I would have sent a direct reply,but our reply facility is being odd
and stupid as usual.

>Thanks for all the response to my 'SRUN Magicalness' posting.
>Any/all comments are appreciated except for one:

>I DO NOT PLAY D&D!!

>EVER!!

>(pause to think about playing D&D....)
>BLEEEERRRRR!!!!!!!! (the thought made me sick)

-Point taken quite clearly,Not sure if I agree,but clearly understood,
 nonetheless.

>I am demonstrating great restraint (for me) by resisting the urge
>to write a huge article on how silly D&D is (apart from the fact
>that doing so would cause unnecessary net-tension).
>I actually don't understand why so many people thought I 'played
>too much D&D'. Hmm. Interesting. 

-Because,chummer,you're comments ring very close to how the D+D magic
system is produced.
>Back to the issue, there are a few things to clear up:

>Yes it's true, I do NOT have the grimoire, or any other shadowrun
>supplement for that matter. I believe a game should stand on it's 
>own, without millions of extra books (or millions of extra $$$).
>So if there is anything in the grimoire that invalidates some
>of my comments, I apologise. My perspective was from the shadowrun
>rulebook only.

-Believe me,there was a LOT of things in the grimoire that you could do
with knowing.
>I do like shadowrun, no I do! It's just that the magic system 
>doesn't quite appeal to me as it is. Don't get me wrong, I would
>use the shadowrun magic system until the world's end, rather than
>use D&D's magic system, and I would do it with a smile on my face.
>(By the way, does D&D HAVE a magic system?) 

-yup

>My comments were mainly based on my experiences so far:
>All player mages that have been in my parties have been absolute
>butt-kickers in terms of spell effectiveness. SO MANY times have
>we (the non-magical players) set up a great ambush/assault, 
>planned everything down to the last detail, got all the right 
>equipment, and then BANG, the mage casts a sleep spell. Ah well,

-And he survived the drain without a bother on him?
 Question:Does his magic pool consist of his MAGIC + SORCERY skill,or
just his Sorcery.The second one is correct,and practically GUARANTEES
that he'll be yawning and say ing things like "My brain hurts!"

>time to go home. There are certain catch-phrases that have formed
>like: 'the pool! use the pool!', and 'Forget that, just get the
>mage to sleep 'em.'. One time, our party was in this really heavy
>security building, and things were getting too much, so we drove
>away, and the mage just 'urban renewal'-ed the place a couple
>of times! (If urban renewal is in the grimoire, then don't blame
>me, the player created his character from it, but I've never
>read the thing). 
 
 Cardinal error there,chummer.If the GM doesn't have access to the book,
then do NOT,under any circumstances allow it.Urban Renewal is Very
powerful,and should have that mage snoring like a baby.I would ask to
see that book next chance you get,and read it CAREFULLY.I'll bet you a
weekend in the Barrens that he's been running you up an alley somewhere
along the line.
>It's not that I mind magical people doing stuff, not at all! 
>But they do it so EASILY! The spell always works, (yes I know
>there's drain) and someone goes down. Using the shadowrun rules
>only, there's also no ingredients, gestures, or time required
>to cast these damn powerful spells.  It's also the fact that 
>they can do basically anything! The mage usually has:
>- some kind of armour spell lock thingy, making him tough.
>- some king of enhanced reflexes lock thingy, making him fast.

 Both of these locks are easily zapped by any passing Astral Mage.

 >-some kind of elemental thingy making him even more powerful.

 Fair enough,but elementals tend to get used up for dice quickly,
making them smaller PERMANENTLY,or get banished or something.
>- some kind of combat specialisation thingy making his combat
>  spells even better.

  True,there is a specialisation allowable under sorcery skill allowing
for better combat dice,putting 2 extra dice on his castings for those
spells,but this removes from ALL his other spell casting Sorcery Skill
by two.This seriously underpowers him if he wants to cast something
else.
>- some kind of mega-blast fireball/sleep against which there is
>  (or seems to be) very little resistance.

 Sleep omly does mental damage.Fireball is a high-powered spell alright,
but it's also got some high-powered drain capabilities.

>- some kind of healing spells.
>- some kind of masking spells. 

But according to you,he's also got combat spells Specialisation.This
means that his healing spells and masking spells Sorcery Skill Rating is
actually Two less than his original Sorcery Skill.
  E.g. If you're mage started off Sorcery-6 and takes a specialisation
in Combat spells,his combat Spellcasting is 8,but all other Sorcery
activities are 4.This is NOT GOOD for any non-combat activities
requiring Spellcasting.


>What else do you need to be able to do? The mage can do it all.

>Then there's all this talk about initiates getting more magic,
>etc. etc. etc. (and one of our mages IS one) I think it's
>too much. Magic is power, but is it omnipotent?

 It seems to me that your mages are taking you for a ride.
   Why ?
  Well,see above and:
  a)For any mage to have all those locks,spells and stuff,they must have
taken Tech 3.Remember that this means that they don't have many
Attributes or skills.
 
  b)If one of your mages is an initiate,fine.But if you don't know what
an initiate actually IS? Then stop and demand to see that Grimoire.If
the offending mage(s) refuse,disallow that character instantly,as this
means your player(s) are trying to hide something.
  Alternatively,buy the Grimoire yourself,without telling them,read it
and SURPRISE them.Even if you don't want to,it is a GOOD idea to get
this extra book at the very least.After all,there is only so much that
you can fit in a basic rule book.
>By the way, who ever heard of a grenade being anything even
>remotely close to a fireball? 'Scratch one mage' yeah SURE. 

 Grenades are actually underpowered in Shadowrun.I Suggest you read a
reply by Blackstar somewhere in the Net,concerning Grenades.

>Remember, these are only my opinions/observations being
>presented here, I speak for no-one else, so don't go insulting
>me by saying I play D&D :)

 Chummer,Your D+D point has been well noted.
>My Email address: thornt_g@kultarr.cs.uwa.edu.au
-- 

--
------------****Rincewind the Wizard****-----------------
"Life is like an apple.It can be green,or red,but it's
 always a small white fleshy ball that you can cook with."
----***tkelly@unix2.tcd.ie,at your service***------------