From: dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz)
Subject: Re: On "standard" books
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 04:01:59 GMT

avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:

>In article <dobo.719161518@swalwell>,
>dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz) writes:
>> In the last few weeks, I became engaged in a serious discussion over
>> Jewish/Polish relations. I think it was beneficial to al involved.
>> Now the news: my opponents (or should I say "discussion partners")
>> constantly refer to books by "Celia Heller" and "Lucy Dawidowicz" (the
>> latter must be some relative of mine, based on name :-)).
>> Tonight, I went to my public library, and guess what?
>> You guessed it: Celia Heller is not listed at all; ther are some scholarly
>> works by D., unrelated to antisemitism (like something about Mexico, etc.)
>> as we discussed here.
>> What gives? I wonder! I hear that in the USA, Heller is mandatory reading,
>> so its absence here is most puzzling. Any explanation, folks?

>Yes. Celia Stopnicka Heller wrote a scholarly book. In spite of
>appearances from its histrionic title, it is heavy reading, and
>was published by a university press. You may have better luck at
>a university library. Another possibility is that your library
>files the works of married women under their maiden names; try
>under "Stopnicka".

No, no, they just do not have the books you think are so obvious to read.
No need to send me to the university libraries - the books are there. It so
happens that the Human Science (...) library is quite far away from my
office and I tried the municipal library instead (which I visit continuously
because I have small children).
Many people sent to me information about how to get "the" books. This was
not the essence of my message. I just wanted to say that even within North
America, some books that, (say) Roger, takes as obviously known, are actually
not even available to the public [how is this for lousy grammar?].
Hence, we are talking on different wavelengths because we were fed
different truths.

I am sure that most differences of opinion would disappear if we all knew
the other side's position. I am sure we all undestand that those Jews who
left Poland before WW2 were naturally unfriendly to Poland. Those who
stayed are not able to speak out, alas. And of course, the "Polish
historians" (a rather sad bunch) considered it necessary to claim that the
relations between Jews and Poles were fantastic. Even an openly "minority"
historian such as Tomaszewski is so idyllic.
One has to remember that
As a comment on sources, unfortunately,	Poles, like Jews, had to fabricate
their right to exist as a state; some thought (in both cases) that the end
justifies the means.

>[...]
>Marcus documents the scale of the confiscation of Jewish
>enterprises, followed by the firing of their Jewish employees.
>These confiscations, as Marcus documents, were so extensive that
>"By the second half of 1936, the scope of state enterprise had
>reached such dimensions that (apart from the USSR) Poland had
>become the most socialized country in the world" (p. 339).

I am sure that this was the case. Although the Polish state
invested heavily in manufacturing and infrastructure, I have not heard of
this being done in the form of "confiscating" existing companies. 
The "flagship" projects of the government, Gdynia and COP had nothing to
do with confiscating anybody's property, seriously.

>But then, as Marcus shows, Polish Jews were not passive victims
>in that war. The world Jewish community mobilized investment in
>the remaining Jewish enterprises in Poland, enabling Jewish
>businesses to create enough jobs to employ most of those laid
>off in the course of the "white bolshevism". "In 1938, Jewish
>firms employed more than 40 per cent of the labour force in
>industry.... In 1929, only about one-third of this work force
>was employed by Jewish firms, but in 1938, foreign participation
>in these Jewish firms was between 15 and 20 per cent, and this
>is roughly twice as much as in 1929." Also, after firing Jewish
>employees the efficiency of state enterprises plummeted, so that
>"As a result of all this, Jewish industry improved its relative
>share of the market between 1929 and 1938" (p.120). In short,
>the government declared the economic war; the Jews won it.

Note that just at the same time you make statements about some "Aryan
legislation" against Jews. If you there was such a legislation, surely,
the Jews would not have won it, would they?
Summary: if the Jews were in position to win an economic war with the
government, then either
(1) Adam is out to lunch,
(2) the economic pressure against the Jews was not that serious,
(3) all Poles are assholes,
(4) all of the above.
Pick your choice.


>But this does not contradict Heller's observation that being
>designated as Poland's official internal ennemies left the

	Noone can doubt that the Ukrainians were the number one internal enemy
	of the state at the time. It is wishful thinking to believe
	otherwise.
>Jewish community frustrated, alienated and anguished. Nor does
>it contradict her implicit thesis that official anti-Semitic
>propaganda, which painted the Jews as ennemies of the Polish
>nation, created a social atmosphere in which, after the German
>occupation, Polish nationalists were no more likely to help
>fugitive Jews than to murder them. 
[... about Heller]
In 1974, I read the memoirs of some rabbi (apparently an important fellow,
who came from Wilno) from Warsaw describing the first months of WW2.
I do not remember much of this anymore, but I certainly
remember that the author made a great effort to distance himself from the
war effort and from anything that was related to military opposition to the
Germans, and to distance himself from the Polish state to begin with.
This is no crime, of course, but it gives a better perspective: by 1939,
the two communities were largely indifferent to each other.


>				Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com

W. Dobosiewicz
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:17365 soc.culture.polish:3075