HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: frankpit@eng.umd.edu (Bernard Adrian Frankpitt)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Reply-To: frankpit@eng.umd.edu (Bernard Adrian Frankpitt)
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:05:17 GMT

In article <jwT-2t_@engin.umich.edu>, lowrie@convection.engin.umich.edu (Robert Byron Lowrie) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Jul27.183408.4261@src.umd.edu>, frankpit@eng.umd.edu (Bernard Adrian Frankpitt) writes:
> > In article <eric.712022536@milton>, eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst) writes:
> 
> [cairn-kicking religious experience deleted]
> 
> > > 
> > > Without pausing, I obliterated the cairn with a gentle kick,
> > >		
> > >		"
> > >		"
> > >		"
> > >
> > > So, was I nice, or was I naughty?
> > > 
> > > Eric Hirst
> > > eric@milton.u.washington.edu
> > 
> > You were nice Eric, I would have had no hesitation at kicking the
> > cairn maker over the edge with his cairns. Route finding is at least
> > half the fun in these situations.
> > 
> > Bernie
> 
> If a route is so heavily traveled as to compel someone to construct cairns,
> then cairns are justified to help keep most people to the same path, and
> therefore minimize the clibmer/hiker's environmental impact.
> 
> Do you suggest we also kick over those nasty "Short-Cutting Causes Erosion"
> signs?
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> -----------------------------
>  Rob Lowrie
>  Aerospace Engineering Dept.


If a route is sufficiently heavily travelled to sustain damage then it is 
obvious where the trail goes without the cairns, and yes I do find those 
"Short cutting causes erosion" signs about as offensive as the ones that 
say "Scenic Outlook" or "Private Land owned by XYZ developers" when they
occur in areas that have some claim to being wilderness.

Bernie
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Animal Friendly Climbing Boots
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:13:00 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <25673@life.ai.mit.edu> klaus@wheat-chex.ai.mit.edu (Klaus B. Biggers) writes:
>
>I'd still rather see that than a 7-kid family in the suburbs that
>doesn't give a damn. A lot of the point of doing things like
>recycling in a family is awareness of the problem. Maybe the seven
>kids will grow up to be (for lack of a better term) environmentalists.
>Rathar that than them turning out to be miners, loggers, etc.

Doen't matter whether they grow up to be miners, loggers, environmentalists,
yuppies, or forest rangers.  The IMPORTANT thing is that they don't each
themselves have seven kids.  Solve the population problem and you've gone
a long way toward solving environmental problems.  Neglect to solve the
population problem, and you might as well not waste effort on the others.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2610 rec.backcountry:5646
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:31:34 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <eric.712022536@milton> eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst) writes:
>While climbers hem and haw about the merits/evils of bolts, I haven't
>heard much fuss over the use of the above three common modifications
>to backcountry routes.

Well, since you requested it, fuss, fuss, fuss.  Anytime anybody wants
some pissing and moaning over back-country development of any sort,
feel free to call on me.

>Here's my test case: You judge my actions.
...
>Without pausing, I obliterated the cairn with a gentle kick, then another.

Good job!

>As I was setting my sights on a third, Tim exploded at me, profoundly pissed.
>I'll leave out the expletives, but his basic argument was that it was not for
>me to judge whether people with weaker routefinding skills should be excluded
>from any given spot in the mountains.

Of course it is not for you to judge.  I think instead we should poll all
the folks parked in winebegos down at the parking lot, and see what they
think about the issue.  They seem to have "good" judgement.


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Partner rescue
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:39:24 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

In article <9982@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
(Hal Lillywhite) writes:
>In article <1992Jul14.145234.7183@aimla.com> jc@optimla.aimla.com
(John VanHoozer) writes:
>>   When I first mentioned this rescue class to some hard-type climbers
>>   they thought that it sounded dumb, "cuz,  you'll never need it".  
>>   This thinking seemed to me to be the norm.  I did some reading for
>>   my own peace of mind though ( "I may not need it but my partner may":)
>>   and even talked to the people in the rescue class.  How does this
>>   newsgroup stand on rescue training?

>Accidents are, almost by definition, unexpected events.

>Personnally I believe that the major danger from climbing and other
>backcountry activities is the lack of quick response by professional
>rescue units.




Evolution in action.




--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
From: lowrie@convection.engin.umich.edu (Robert Byron Lowrie)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:08:25 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: lowrie@convection.engin.umich.edu


In article <1992Jul27.183408.4261@src.umd.edu>, frankpit@eng.umd.edu (Bernard Adrian Frankpitt) writes:
> In article <eric.712022536@milton>, eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst) writes:

[cairn-kicking religious experience deleted]

> > 
> > Without pausing, I obliterated the cairn with a gentle kick,
> >		
> >		"
> >		"
> >		"
> >
> > So, was I nice, or was I naughty?
> > 
> > Eric Hirst
> > eric@milton.u.washington.edu
> 
> You were nice Eric, I would have had no hesitation at kicking the
> cairn maker over the edge with his cairns. Route finding is at least
> half the fun in these situations.
> 
> Bernie

If a route is so heavily traveled as to compel someone to construct cairns,
then cairns are justified to help keep most people to the same path, and
therefore minimize the clibmer/hiker's environmental impact.

Do you suggest we also kick over those nasty "Short-Cutting Causes Erosion"
signs?


-- 

-----------------------------
 Rob Lowrie
 Aerospace Engineering Dept.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Bad Maps (was Re: Trip Report: Yosemite's )
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:59:25 GMT

>was parked at the bottom of the Inspiration Point trail.  So, the USGS map proved very useful; the terrain had remained the same, only the trails had changed!
>I then examined the US Forest Service map and found the trail that we had
>followed was shown as going directly down Dry Gulch (the steep, rocky, cliffy
>canyon), not the alternative drainage.  Thank goodness the USGS map was as
>accurate as it was!  We had a great trip, but were glad to get out of there
>after we thought we might be lost!  Got to Creede and had hamburgers and beer
>at a local saloon.  Good maps?  Bad trails? Bad maps?  Good Trails?  Hmmm....

If you look at the bottom margin of USGS maps you will find date of
last revision.  One should be aware of this and make your owen
judgement about the possability of inaccuracies!  You do that that
with climbing guides after all -- don't you?
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: Don Whillans books?
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:56:48 GMT

In article <5459@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk>, zlsiirk@uts.mcc.ac.uk
 (R. E. Kruz.) writes:
>Yes he did! It was called "Don Whillams, Portrait of a mountaineer"
>It was a joint book with some geezer whose name I forget, who by the
tone of the
>book has transcribed conversations he's had with Don. Each chapter
starts with
>a brief description of an event in Don's life and then off Don goes
into a no
>holds barred monologue. It's a very good book, full of his wit (very
dry) and
>his "take no shit" attitude. God, he was a hard bastard!
>
>Unfortunately it's out of print and paperback copies are getting harder
to
>find in specialist shops.Last price I heard was about 50 quid (Pounds
Sterling)
>for a copy.
>

By way of following up on this, someone suggested calling Chestler Books
in Colorado, so I did.  They said they sometimes will get a copy of this
book, but not often.  If it's hardback, it's at least $80 ... I'll just
have to wait to see if they find a paperback copy to see what they'd charge.

SOOOooooooo, if anyone out there comes across a copy that they
don't want, and don't feel greedhead enough to charge me half my monthly
income I'd be interested.  Maybe I could buy it, read it, and pass it on 
the next interested person ... though that almost, oh my god, sounds sort-of
non-selfish pinko commie ...

--
Greg Jahn, Boise State Univ.|"You'd eat your young alive
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu / | for a Jaguar in the drive.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    / | You lie too much, you lie too badly"
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  / |          - Joni Mitchel
From: tim@muvms3.bitnet (Tim Calvert)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Technique question
Date: 31 Jul 92 08:43:47 GMT
Organization: Marshall University

Pardon the intrusion. I have a question that perhaps someone can help me with.
What is the accepted technique for getting around a knot in a rope when
rapelling?

(I'd prefer email as our newsfeed has been extremely unreliable lately and I
might miss any posted responses.)

Thanks.

Tim

-- 
Tim Calvert				BITNET:   tim@marshall
Marshall University			Internet: tim@marshall.wvnet.edu
Huntington, WV				Phone:    (304)696-3210
					FAX:      (304)696-3601
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: TOP TEN LIST OF PLACES TO CLIMB NEAR DENVER, COLORADO....
Reply-To: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 19:09:50 GMT

TOP TEN PLACES TO CLIMB NEAR DENVER, COLORADO

(1)  Eldorado Canyon
(2)  Boulder Canyon
(3)  The Flatirons
(3)  Morrison (for bouldering)
(4)  Flagstaff (ditto)
(5)  Mickey Mouse Wall
(6)  Horsetooth/Carter Res. (bouldering)
(7)  RMNP/Lumpe Ridge
(8)  Vedawoo (only 1.5 hrs.)
(9)  Bear, Skunk, and other "canyons" in the Flatirons.
(10) The Engineering Center, University of Colorado @ Boulder.
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2657 rec.backcountry:5698
From: rob@cygnus.com (Rob Savoye)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Public perceptions.
Date: 30 Jul 92 02:57:59 GMT
Organization: /s1/users/rob/.organization
In-reply-to: jdalbey@zeus.calpoly.edu's message of 29 Jul 92 17:23:14 GMT


  One of my favorites was after coming off of Mt. Ranier after days of
climbing. We did a 180 degree traverse and came done on the Paradise
station side. The most common question was "Can we make it to the top
today ?" This was usually asked by tourist wearing shorts. They didn't
seem to notice the layers of warm clothing, the sun burn, the ice
tools, nor the large packs.

	- rob -
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Earthquake "damage" in Idyllwild
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 20:25:39 GMT

In article <23879@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>Earthquakes are considered a good example of self-organised criticality.

Clearly, someone who's read Thom's book on catastrophe theory....

Actually, I read Dave Knorr's really funny Joshua Tree spoof.
It was almost funny enough to get a $10 prize.  (If it had been done in the
style of a Mountain article or AAJ or some similar journal, it would have
compared to some of the humor in one series of skiing posts).

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:24:22 GMT

In article <Jul30.155533.49850@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <106480236@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> byrnes@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Byrnes) writes:
>[regarding destruction of cairns:]
>>Well I think you're both dickheads.  You obviously believe that everyone is
>>entitled to *your* opinion.
>
>The cairn builders are the ones imposing their opinion on the rest of us.
>They never asked my opinion before building their obnoxious little pile of
>rocks.
>
>Do not build cairns.  Take only pictures.  Leave only footprints.
>
>--
>
>-Wayne Trzyna
> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU

I trust you treat all the G**D****D fire rings the same way, save
those in obviously established campsites.  Last week I was at an
otherwise fantastic campsite except there must have been 20-30 fire
rings.  Some of them within a couple of feet from each other.  This
wan't a trailless area but the number of rire rings was absurb.  I
might add this was a "no wood fire" area per NFS regs!!!
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2582 rec.backcountry:5579
From: akin@sgi.com (Allen Akin)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:52:54 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

For those of us who would like to improve our routefinding skills,
cairns are a disservice.  Better to make the decisions and learn from
the consequences than to spend the day in a series of mindless searches
for the next cairn.

That said, there have been a few times when I appreciated a marker.
When the snow was thick, for example.  Or a few weeks ago when crossing
over Middle Palisade, there was a reassuring cairn at a particularly
difficult spot.

For now, I'm unwilling to make the judgement that a particular cairn
should be destroyed.  I don't have the experience to decide that it
is truely unnecessary in all conditions.  However, I'm perfectly happy
to discourage anyone I see building one.  And I won't be building any.

Allen
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Why such an extremism ? (Was Re: cairns)
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:31:54 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Jul30.192708.27957@oracle.us.oracle.com> krshah@us.oracle.com (Kalpak Shah  ) writes:
>
>So I believe the larger question that we have been discussing here is
>not "kick cairns or plant cairns" but should be 
>
>****Should society ACTIVELY make backcountry more accessible or should it
>leave it alone ?****

This is an interesting question.  Given that nobody is willing to admit,
much less try to solve the real problem -- namely, population growth --
backcountry enthusiasts are caught in a pinch on this one.  It comes down
to a race against the developers.  As population pressures increase
more and more land is developed.  Forward thinkers, such as Muir,
have traditionally "marketed" the backcountry, introducing as many
people as possible to it so that they grow to recognize its value
and contribute to the fight against development.  The Sierra club
carries on this tradition, maintaining trails and organizing large
groups for wilderness excursions.   But "backcountry for the masses" 
is a paradox.  At what point does the backcountry become no longer
backcountry?  National Park designation, probably at the pinnacle of
protective legal status, is also an open invitation to overcrowding.
(Though it could be argued that this is due to mis-management on the
part of the Park Service, i.e., too much concentration on roads and
Winnebego facilities.)  The best remaining backcountry areas are the
ones you've never heard of, not the National Parks or Wilderness Areas.
But few, if any, "undiscovered" areas remain. The bottom line is, the
officially protected areas are much better off than if they were covered
with condominium sprawl, as is for example the Vail valley.  And official
protection would likely not exist were it not for the wilderness-marketing
efforts of organizations such as the Sierra Club, as much as I hate to
admit it.

In my cynacle opinion, we are only postponing the inevitable.  As population
growth puts pressures on resources, peoples' interest in backcountry will
be superseded by interests in staying warm, dry, and fed.  When the doo
hits the fan, legal protection won't be worth the paper the laws are written
on.  (The paper too will be burned as heating fuel.)  But for the immediate
future we at least have a somewhat pristine, though ebbingly so, setting
in which to spend our weekends and vacations.
-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
From: mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Summary: Route-finding isn't *always* half the fun ...
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 22:05:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.183408.4261@src.umd.edu> frankpit@eng.umd.edu (Bernard Adrian Frankpitt) writes:
>You were nice Eric, I would have had no hesitation at kicking the
>cairn maker over the edge with his cairns. Route finding is at least
>half the fun in these situations.

Excuse me, but this can be a VERY dangerous attitude.  I produce as Exhibit
A the trail on Pyramid Peak (the well-known Colorado 14er, not the various
other Pyramids that exist in other states).  Pyramid is one of the Red Elks
and notoriously dangerous due to rockfall hazard.  If you pick the right
route, which by now has been reasonably well "gardened" of loose rock and
in the process cairn-marked, it is an enjoyable climb, if relatively
difficult by 14er standards (relatively?  Hah!).  If you *don't* follow this
route, you can easily land in extremely serious trouble.  Experienced climbers
die on this mountain by getting off route.

The precise problem on this mountain is that route finding is NOT half the
fun.  It is absolutely essential to a safe climb, but it is *not* fun.
Compounding this problem is the fact that the standard guidebooks are starting
to reflect the fact that a relatively safe -- marked -- route exists, and
therefore that would-be climbers are expecting to find that route and are
looking for it.  How would you like to carry the moral -- possibly also legal,
if you were caught -- burden of having knocked down a cairn on Pyramid and
then had some climber, expecting to find a cairned route but having to "wing
it" in the cairns' absence, make a route-finding error (very easy to do on the
Red Elks) and die as a result?

The point of all this is that there are cairns and cairns.  On most 14ers they
are marginally useful in the lowlands, and above timberline they are more of a
liability than an asset anyway.  But in places like the summit ridge of
Pyramid, it is IMHO bordering on criminally reckless to dismantle them.

-- 
Bill Johnson				| "This is a bit complicated, so let
Los Alamos National Laboratory		| me explain it backwards."  (first
Los Alamos, New Mexico USA		| line of a memo from a fellow Los
!cmcl2!lanl!mwj (mwj@lanl.gov)		| Alamos physicist who will go unnamed)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: krshah@us.oracle.com (Kalpak Shah  )
Subject: Re: Why such an extremism ? (Was Re: cairns)
Originator: krshah@dvlseq.us.oracle.com
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores, California
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:27:08 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.


I don't subscribe to views of kicking off cairns neither do I like
seeing the cairns too often while in backcountry. 

Based on my experience here in U.S and India (Western Ghats and Himalayas), I
would like  to point out a few differences between two. I imagine the
differences can be extrapolated to most of developed world versus
third world.

 There is no money spent on trail maintanence in India. I haven't
come across a single trail in India which was maintained, so that
people could hike/trek/backpack. Trails come into existence by people
from nearby villages who in their daily life use these trails and
vanish when no one uses them. As a result there are no trail maps of
the area since the trail is dynamic. 

So in order to travel successfully in backcountry you need
 -  good sense of direction.(remember no cairns, no well marked trails etc) 
 -  talk to villagers to get current info of the area/trail 
 -  also need to adapt to the situation, if you come across flooded
    stream, wrong estimate of time/itienary which is likely to happen
    the first time you do the route.

Since life of people in backcountry is completely different meeting people
on trails is a especially enjoyable. Also people are really friendly
and you get to use their houses/schools for overnight stay which again
gives you an insight into that little hamlet. 

Also usually there is no Ranger rescue (I don't know about big peaks
???).

And as a result there are not that many people going into backcountry
as there are here in U.S. But for me all the above stuff, made it all
the more worthwhile.


So I believe the larger question that we have been discussing here is
not "kick cairns or plant cairns" but should be 

****Should society ACTIVELY make backcountry more accessible or should it
leave it alone ?****


--Kalpak


  

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: Animal Friendly Climbing Boots
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:39:38 GMT

In article <Jul28.221300.50530@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
|>In article <25673@life.ai.mit.edu> klaus@wheat-chex.ai.mit.edu (Klaus
|>B. Biggers) writes:
|>>
|>>I'd still rather see that than a 7-kid family in the suburbs that
|>>doesn't give a damn. A lot of the point of doing things like
|>>recycling in a family is awareness of the problem. Maybe the seven
|>>kids will grow up to be (for lack of a better term)
|>environmentalists.
|>>Rathar that than them turning out to be miners, loggers, etc.
|>
|>Doen't matter whether they grow up to be miners, loggers,
|>environmentalists,
|>yuppies, or forest rangers.  The IMPORTANT thing is that they don't
|>each
|>themselves have seven kids.  Solve the population problem and you've
|>gone
|>a long way toward solving environmental problems.  Neglect to solve
|>the
|>population problem, and you might as well not waste effort on the
|>others.
|>

PRECISELY.  It reminds me of the comment made in Apocalypse Now, when
the guy said that we shoot people with M16's and then try to patch the
holes with bandaids.  Animal friendly boots?  Or, people from Chevron
doing trail maintenance?  Fine, I hope you FEEL better, but the issue
is survival, not guilt.

--
Greg Jahn, Boise State Univ.|"You'd eat your young alive
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu / | for a Jaguar in the drive.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    / | You lie too much, you lie too badly"
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  / |          - Joni Mitchel