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Posted-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 14:14:26 EDT
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:14:26 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      suspense
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Tom, it occurs to me that on first reading, suspense would inevitably be
a big part of the reading experience. How could it not be, since as readers
we always wonder what will happen. My answer would be that if it turned
out that you liked the book extremely, your next readings would be at least
as pleasurable, maybe more pleasurable, than the first reading with its
suspense value intact. The best novels have that suspense value too, sometimes,
but once that's gone, they remain able to please by their art. You get
caught up in the story even though you know what happens. But you heard
that part already. A short story of D.H. Lawrence's comes to mind, "The
Horse Dealers Daughter." My fascination is the process, and the power of
its portrayal. I don't hurry through the process, to get to an outcome,
as we all do with lesser work; the process, not an anticipation, is what
is savored. But of course you'd have to be a pretty dull reader not to
have suspense matter first reading. Michael B.
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:10:32 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Legacy of England
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

>   I meant that most people on the left would have a hard time under-
> standing an Indian speaking positively of the opportunity, as though the
> best outcome might have been if England had succeeded.  From the example
> you give, I see that as might be expected, results are complex--is the
> book you refer to a good one?  What books on colonialism would you recom-
> mend?
> Mike
>
A number of years ago I read a history book called _Freedom at
Midnight_ by Collins & Lapierre (sp?)... seems to me that it gave a
good account of the process by which India gained its independence.
                                            --Tom
-----------------------------------------------
Tom Frenkel
Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center
161 Ft. Washington Ave.     DAP-1310
New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of
      my employer >>>
-----------------------------------------------
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 02:11:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Karenin vs. Levin??

Tim, i simply do not recognize Levin as you describe him at all.
Michael McDonald
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Posted-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 12:53:28 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:53:28 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      poetry
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

If it's not too long, quote it. Geez, if it's OK for people to put twenty
page interpretations of the universe (not on this list), then a relatively
short poem shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't want to miss out on the dis-
cussion just because I didn't have a copy around. Michael "B.
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:11:13 EST
From:         DZL <livewell@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Re: No Subject Given
Comments: To: SPAM@TAMVM1.BITNET, LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          I've found the title.  It's The Art of Fiction:  Notes on
          Craft for Young Writers, Knopf, New York, 1984.  I'm sure
          any library would stock it.  Let me know if you find it.
          --Dave Livewell
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:09:50 CDT
From:         "Mark Banaszak (s946573.umslvma)" <S946573@UMSLVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: No Subject Given

 The book, if it has not already been described, is <The Art of Fiction>.  As
books on writing go, it is good.  When it comes to writing novels, John
G. has few peers.  It seems so difficult, though, for any writer to explain
how she does what she does.

As far as Kafka is concerned, I know of no other writer who captures the
difficulty of understanding modern life than he.  When he writes of Gregor
staying home from work, I can only think of my old job as a health insurance
claims adjustor.  I wish I had had an exoskeleton.

mb
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 00:33:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: who was really wronged?

Tim, i completely disagree with your statement that the "person of character
in this novel was Karenin."  Even so, from a certain perspective you are
absolutely right, and the fact that you can simultaneously be so right and
so wrong has everything to do with the special quality of Tolstoy's work.
From the standpoint of the social status quo, you are absolutely right,
Karenin is the person of character, and Tolstoy is at great pains to present
the inner logic that fuels that status quo; thus, you have the considerable
weight of Russian society as Tolstoy painstakingly presents it to cite in
support of your contention.  The genius of Tolstoy's work, however, is that
the painstaking presentation of Russian social norms and mores is even more
painstakingly juxtaposed with the inner world embodied in Levin, a world which
Tolstoy clearly favors over that of the Russian status quo.  And from the
perspective of this, incipiently spiritual world, Karenin has very little
character indeed, for his character has shaped itself to conform to the
values and expectations of the social status quo, never with regard to the
demands of the inner life.  And his inability to see the demands of the inner
life clamoring for attention in the person of his wife finally renders him
little more than a self-righteously wronged husband, most definitely *not*
a person of character in the eyes of Levin, the character who best embodies
the spiritual values of Tolstoy himself.

Michael McD
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:55:50 CST
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From:         Melanie Willis <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject:      ubject: Dostoyevsky

I found Crime and Punishment fascinating but depressing. Raskolnikov (is that
spelled right?) was in a fever pretty much throughout the whole thing, wasn't
he? I would love to see what kind of person Dosteovsky was. Did you ever read
anything about his life? Did you know he was anti-Semetic? Doesn't that seem
strange for such a brilliant man?--Melanie

Statistics & Research Consulting
782-4418
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>From LITERARY Fri Jul 31 03:35:38 +0000 1992 remote from ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
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From: AVH.UNIT.NO!Jeremy.Hawthorn (Jeremy Hawthorn)
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This reminds me of the invasion of the bodysnatchers.

Jeremy Hawthorn

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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:57:04 -0500
From:         Doris Smith <dorisann@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      Re: sarum
Comments: To: "Discussions about Literature" <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list LITERARY <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

Thanks, Anne.  I'm going to stick with Sarum for a while longer due to your
comments.
Doris
dorisann@tenet.edu
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 02:30:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      chekhov blahs

As a Joycean, i thank divinity that Joyce was fond of Ibsen rather than
Chekhov, who everyone tells me is great but bores me to tears.

M McDonald
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:38:37 EST
From:         Graham Wolff Christian <GRAHAM@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Subject: re: Random shuffling

It used to be not altogether uncommon for friends to generate sonnets this way.
I am thinking of what was called bouts-rim'es;yet in such cases the writers did
see each other's lines. One of the potential drawbacks of writing contemporary
verse in this fashion (previous lines unseen, etc.) is that, because of the
predominance of vers libre, one has a rather greater chance now, I think, than
in the starched-collar days of iambic pentamenter, for a jumble rather than an
unexpected poem. Then again, it may come out looking like Charles Olson, or
the *Pisan Cantos*. Bonne chance.
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:50:00 EDT
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Brautigan (my final comment?)

>But it seemed like he started losing ground when the 60's were over...
>the last book I read of his (can't remember the name) was a real downer
>[. . .] Tom Robbins took his place as my favorite author... Robbins had
>some of the same sense of whimsy but he was (and is) a lot more positive.

> . . . I don't think, taking the long view, that his writing was truly
"great." . . .

I don't really want to get too heavily into defending Brautigan because I
think I agree that he isn't really a great writer.  I also agree that much
of his work is heavily dated.  However, I would take issue with one point.
His last collection (The Tokyo-Montana Express) is probably the "downer"
referred to above, and I think that is probably his best work for that
very reason.  It's also exactly why I don't particularly like what I've
read of Robbins (three books, I think).  To me, the T-M E was RB's most
honest book - shit does happen - and Robbins seemed too Pollyanna-ish.
Perhaps if one is looking *just* for whimsy the rating would be the other
way around, but if that were so I'd be re-reading Peter Pan for the 7th time
instead.
        Please note I haven't read Robbins latest book, which I'm told is
better than the previous few.  Perhaps he's changed a bit.
        Ian
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:45:26 -0900
From:         the First and Only Nude Vaxer <FSCLL@ALASKA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Prose/Poetry

>          Laura,
>
>          I would also love to discuss any poetry, preferably 20th
>          century British, Irish,and American--Auden, Larkin, Yeats,
>          Eliot, Roethke, Lowell, Heaney, Montague, Stevens, Williams,
>          Hecht, Wilbur, etc.  Would you like to start the discussion?
>          The good thing is that lots of people can join in about a
>          small poem because we can all go read it rather quickly--as
>          opposed to a novel.
>
>          --Dave

Hear, hear! I vote for Williams, Roethke, or some even more modern poets
(Philip Levine, Sharon Olds), or maybe even Raymond Carver who I think is
neglected as a poet...

chris
poet and pauper
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Posted-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 12:53:18 EDT
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:53:18 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      ubject: Dostoyevsky
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

        Dostoyevsky is one of my favorites too (along with Kafka); unfortunately
I have a vague memory of this particular episode?  Was it Father Zossima to
whom this happened or someone else?  Probably already I have shown my confusion.
You're asking a good question.  If you no one else can help you on this, and
they probably will, I'll take a look--I just got the new "award-winning"
translation. Dostoyevsky was my earliest favorite writer. In high school
I tried to imitate Raskolnikov in a fever, and was cryptic in my actions
I almost didn't graduate.  Mike.
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:17:25 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Prose/Poetry

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: helfrich@siam.org

HG> I second the opinion on Chekov.  I like the plays, but I
HG> like seeing them produced more than I like reading them.


Tolstoy supposedly told Chekhov the plays of Shakespeare were
dreadful, "..even worse than yours!"  And Chekhov was his pal!
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:40:39 EDT
From:         Ahmed Farah 4883555 ext 249 <AAIT01@SAKACS00.BITNET>

Would anyone in the list funrish me with state-of-the-art textbooks on
the craft of writing, particularly of elements of fictions such as PLOT,
CHARACTERS, THEMES and STATEGY, DIALOGUE, NARRATIVE ACTIONS, CLIMAX and
ANTICLIMAX ...etc. ONLY standard books that deal with the above topics
in depth  with expert and scholarly discussions are entertained.I would
very much appreciate any bibliography and shall remain grateful.
Virtually
Ahmed Farah
BASM/KACST box 6086
Riyadh 11442
Saudi Arabia
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:07:46 EDT
From:         "Paul G. Beidler" <pgb3@LEHIGH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gray's Lanark
Comments: To: "Discussions about Literature" <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

>Hi--
>    Recently, I've been reading Alasdair Gray's novel Lanark, which was
>given to me by a friend. I think that it's a wonderful book, complex
>and playful, and unlike most anything I've read before. Has anyone else
>read Gray? Are his other books like Lanark? Does anyone know of any other
>books that I might enjoy that are similar to this?
>
>                                      Thanks beforehand,
>                                          Steve
>
Steve,
    His short stories are wonderful.  I haven't got them handy, but let me
know if you need the complete reference.

                                                Paul
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From:         DZL <livewell@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Prose/Poetry
Comments: To: FSCLL@ALASKA.BITNET, LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          Can you think of a good Roethke poem you can send us some
          time next week?

          --Dave
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:15:36 CST
From:         "Regina St. John" <VAUR0004@SMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Franz Kafka
              21 Jul 1992 15:22:48 CST from
              <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>

Melanie,
I read Kafka's, Metamorphosis as part of a class I took in Contemporary
approaches to literature.  We discussed this story with regard to New
Criticism-deciding whether the text could stand alone without the author's
intensions. Since Kafka had lived such a disturbing life,
most everyone in our class felt that we should take into consideration
Kafka's intent of the meaning of the story.  Have you ever read any excerpts
from Kafka's letter to his father?

                                       Regina
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 08:01:00 EST
From:         REDMON@GMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Franz Kafka

As someone mentioned before, It would be nice if we could hold more
discussions on great writers such as Kafka.  I have read <The Hunger Artist>,
<The Penal Colony>, <The Metamorphisis>, and <The Judgement>.  There are so
many layers to <The Metamorphisis> and the other two stories that I would
want to devote entire e-mail messages to each of them.  On the story of
<The Judgement> there are points of interest ready at hand.  For insance,
did any find the symbolism that Kafka was employing with regards to his
father?  It seems that phallic symbols are in abundance in his stories, but
did anyone catch the reference that Kafka makes towards his father actually
being in him?  It is true that Kafka and his father never truly got along and
<The Judgement> is a testament to this fact.  Well, perhaps they did "get along"
but their relationship was like that of a son and his mother.  It seems that
there is an underlying jealousy in his father's speech when he speaks of how
Kafka is getting married so quickly to some vixon that he had just recently
met.  And don't forget that Kafka's father was in bed, bed sore, almost as
if he were strapped to the bed, helpless, in bondage.  So, as in most of
Kafka's stories, we see a tremendous amount of guilt, which is never latent
but rather obvious.  The ills of society is almost always a major theme in
Kafka's work; however, in <The Judgement> the theme rests on the Father/son
conflict, almost Freudian in nature.  What do you all think?  Let's open
this conversation up further, shall we...

Jeremy Redmon
REDMON@GMUVAX.GMU.EDU
George Mason University
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:46:58 EST
From:         SIF <finkelst@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      King Lear
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          Dave,

          I prefer Scoffield's interpretation of King Lear.

          Susan Finkelstein
          finkelst@siam.org
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:33:23 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Once more on Anna.

>And his inability to see the demands of the inner
>life clamoring for attention in the person of his wife finally renders him
>little more than a self-righteously wronged husband....

  The point about Anna is not that her husband failed her
in anyway.  If she had been married to Vronsky, she would
have dumped him for another man.  It was only her own
capricious and fickle nature, her rebellion not against
the character of her husband, but against the circumstances
of marriage that led her into Vronsky's arms.  Had society
been *more* understanding and forgiving of Anna, her relationship
with Vronsky would have been over in an instant.  She would
have left him for the next rake who passed through town.
  Her fall was *almost* completely unrelated to the character
of either Karenin or Vronsky.  Well, certainly she would
never have left either for a farm animal like Levin.
It was clear he couldn't give her the thrill of illicit
relations that were the impetus for dumping Karenin.
  It was precisely society's disapproval of her relationship
with Vronsky that made that relationship so exciting to her -
that kept her in his arms, once she came to recognize that it
was nothing in Vronsky himself that gave her that thrill.
  I don't mean to suggest that her end wasn't tragic.  But
she brought it wholly upon herself - in no way was her ex-husband
at fault for this.  Perhaps a society which gave her the freedom
to fool around for a few years before marrying might have enabled
her to get out of her system that itch which caused the problems.
I'm not sure I want to speculate about that.  But Karenin himself
is most definitely free from culpability.

                                 -Tim
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From:         Melanie Willis <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject:      Franz Kafka

Would anyone like to comment on The Castle, The Trial or The Metamorphosis by F
ranz Kafka?  I read these over a year ago and have never yet had anyone to disc
uss them with.  I found The Castle very enigmatic, but very interesting.

Please comment if you've read any of these books or the short story.

Thank you very much.

Melanie
Springfield, Illinosis

Statistics & Research Consulting
782-4418
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