HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall)
Subject: Re: Race Relations Survey
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:51:53 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Distribution: na

In article dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
| In article johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall) writes:
| >Vance, that was a key statement.  Many of the people who oppose
| >AA do it precisely becuase it 'is NOT helping' but
| >'The way some peope talk ...'.
| >
| >In other words, the policy is ineffective at helping, but
| >imposes real disadvantages on those it means to help.  This
| >includes resentment, racial polarization, and the
| >disparagement of accomplishments under the AA shadow.
| >
| 
| This is 100% WRONG !!!! 

I have backed my statements up, in the past, with empirical
information.  Do you have anything more than feeling and
blind emotion to contribute?  You might want to study
Stan and Vance some.

| Before AA their was resentment, 

What ever for?  The whites had everything so what would they
resent blacks for?  Irrational hate or contempt, yes.  But
resentment?

| racial polarization 

Worldwide, AA programs have always fed racial polarization or
made it worse.

| and disparagement of accomplishments. 

Considering the problems of the AfAm community, any pre-AA
accomplishments wouldn't be disparged, they would be admired.
I doubt you have had a fraction of the problems that faced
Thomas Sowell, for example.

Without preferential policies, you have no rational reason
to suspect someones qualifications (say, a fellow freshman).
With them, it is statistically accurate to *expect* that a
freshman in an elite school from a perferred group wouldn't
be there on merit.  [Berkley, Harvard, etc.]  This is particularly
insulting to those who *are* there on merit.

| Whites NEED to think that they
| are superior to AfAms because at every time when the playing field has been
| made level AfAms have excelled. 

Now do we have a Prof Jeffries style claim of superiority?

| I know of MANY AfAms who didn't have the test scores like
| the white students but excelled in the classroom just like the so-called
| "qualified" white students. 

Berkely graduation rate for Whites & Asians -- 70%
Berkley grad rate for Black AA students     -- 18% after 5 yrs.

Further, the course of study followed by blacks is heavily
weighted toward less rigorous courses of study.

Your 'MANY' doesn't compare with empirical research.  Furthermore,
several studies have indicated that test scores are a *better*
indicator of black performance in college than they are of
white performance.

| From my own experience, the assumption of whites
| is that the AfAm isn't qualified to be at their school. Regardless of
| test scores, etc. This has NOTHING to to with AA.

Then you aren't paying attention.
At Berkley, somewhere around 9 of 10 minority students
do not qualify under merit criteria. Without AA,
you would have less minority students but everyone
would have gotten there on their own and everyone would
know it.



-- 
-------------------------
My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.

Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: Neil Hull <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Ralph Winston, et. al.
X-To: ALEX WOLF
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 00:27:00 GMT

AW>In article <schumach.701663704@convex.convex.com>, schumach@convex.com (Richa
AW>A. Schumacher) writes:
AW>>> In <gate.D238HB1w164w@b-cpu.UUCP> ralphw@b-cpu.UUCP (Ralph Winston) writes
AW>>>
AW>>> [The usual stuff]
AW>>>
AW>> By the dead stinking Christ! Has he nothing better to do than to propagate
AW>> this trash?

AW>Doesn't seem like it, does it?

AW>Anyway we can get this guy off of this newsgroup?  I understand that some
AW>subscribe to the theory that you should know your enemy, but I know
AW>enough about Ralph Winston to know that he is an anti-semitic ass, who
AW>has nothing better to do than type up extremely long articles about how
AW>Jews are evil heathens trying to control our minds.  (Or have they already
AW>done that, Ralph)

Alex;

I realise that you are going to flame me for this, but I just feel that what
I am going to say, needs to be said.

While I am TRYING to stay out of this debate itself, I am finding that MANY
people are not actually attacking Mr. Winston's arguments, but in fact are
editing out the entire text of what he says, and are just attacking HIM
personally and calling him a "racist," or "liar," etc.

Now AGAIN I must re-iterate that I do not support Mr. Winston's views, nor
do I support anyone else's views on this subject, because until I decide
to write something substantive on this issue, I am remaining STRICTLY
NEUTRAL.

Even so...I hardly think that you and Mr. Schumacher did what could be
called an admirable job of refutation.  To just delete EVERYTHING he said,
and then call him an "anti-semitic ass," and then follow it up by demanding
his removal from the newsgroup, is hardly worthwhile intellectual discussion.
(and is that not the purpose of this newsgroup?)

After all, if you're going to call the man a racist - TELL US WHY!  (and
better still, quote the text which you think is racist or a lie).

Heck, isn't this a free country?  If someone wants to say that the Holocaust
never happened, or that all men are violent, or all women are schemers, or
that the Illuminati are taking over the world, or whatever, no matter HOW
crazy it seems, I think that he/she HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY IT.  You might not
agree with it, so YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH IT!

Remember...hundreds of thousands of people died so that ALL PEOPLE, even Mr.
Winston, would have the right to express their views.  He has his right to
express them, and you have the right to express your disagreement with him.

W.

Standard Disclaimer - ZOOiD BBS Spokesperson .... Not!

 * SLMR 2.1a * 
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.african
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Sexist African Males)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:20:16 GMT

In <1992Apr14.141119.8563@mercury.cair.du.edu> rhuffman@diana.cair.du.edu (Robert T. Huffman) writes:

>In article <viking.703224672@vincent1.iastate.edu>
 viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

>I don't quite see the connection between Shaka Zulu's military innovations
>and the demand for slavery.

>>The bottom line is that each
>>group of people will enslave or otherwise subjugate others no matter what
>>their race, color, or creed.

>It appears you and I share a pessimistic view of humanity.

	There is the connection above.  Slavery or murder is hardly
classified on racial or nationalistic lines exclusively, and yes I
am quite pessimistic towards humanity.  We are hardly noble, as a species.

>Of course numbers have nothing to do with morality.  But some posters to
>this thread have been saying that the decimation of African populations
>was the fault of Africans.  Well, it wasn't.  (But, frankly, I believe it
>was simply because they did not have the means of desturuction available
>to Europeans and Americans.
[snip]
>I don't believe this, but am not willing to argue about it since there is
>no way of knowing if "black solidarity" could have defeated the slavers.


	Slavers do not operate gunships, nor do they have the logistics
to carry on operations in the interior of the country.  There has to
be another reason for the population decimation in the continent at
that time; coastal depletion I can understand, but not continent-wide.
As the british found out, a warrior with a spear works pretty well when
you're running out of ammunition for your gun or are severely outnumbered.

<Daniel R. Sorenson   Dod #1066  |If Iowa State University agreed with me >
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu <- work |I'd make $90K/yr.  They don't, I don't. >
<viking@iastate.edu      <- play |"I am *not* goofing off.  I am driving  >
< myself mercilessly in the pursuit of relaxation." -- T. Weeds           >

Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:1435 alt.politics.correct:3634
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: Sexist African Males
From: krueger@galileo.uucp (Ted Krueger)
Date: 10 Apr 92 08:26:38 MST
Distribution: usa,local
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson AZ

In article <guillory.702890744@bach.crhc.uiuc.edu> guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu (Stanford Guillory) writes:
>v070km6q@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (John B Schutkeker) writes:
>
>>Perhaps they should be required to stay at home and raise the children
>>that they fater out of wedlock and to the marry the mothers of those
>>children instead of leaving them to go onto welfare.
>
>Well gee, John, given that white females make up the vast
>majority of welfare receipients (~70%), maybe we should
>hold those horny white males to the same standard, huh?
>
Where did you get this number from?  Of course, we 
should hold all horny people to the same standard.  Even if your 
stat is accurate, it only says that ~70% of recipients are white 
females, not that ~70% of welfare dollars go to white females.  
Go back to Statistics 100.

>Heres a question for everyone. How much of every tax dollar
>I spend on welfare would I save if they got those lazy, whining
>white people off of welfare? (Hint: 70 cents). How about
>blacks? (Hint: 25 cents). Which lazy group is costing us the most
>money? You figure it out.

Please re-read my discussion of your stats.  Your numbers are 
magic...they have no connection with reality.>
>
>Stanford S. Guillory
>sguillor@pcocd2.intel.com

Ted

Q: How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: That's not funny.
---------- krueger@galileo.physics.arizona.edu ----------
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Whites Critical of African-Americans
Date: 8 Apr 92 07:08:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: cancun.rdippold.702716925
Distribution: na
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA

dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>AA isn't what causes blacks to be looked at as inferior to whites, its the
>attitude of whites which causes this.

And a system in which substandard performance is subsidized isn't
going to affect the views of those who have to deal with it?  I know
damn well blacks aren't inferior to whites, from personal experience
in school, at work, and off-hours.  However I am not going to give an
Affirmative Action beneficiary the same initial level of confidence
that I am going to give to someone who made it without such benefits.
I don't see AA making blacks look inferior, I see it making the
individual blacks who make it when AA is in place look inferior.  Even
if they weren't a beneficiary of it.


>Long before there was AA the attitude that blacks are inferior to whites
>existed. 

Of course.  It's good of us to reinforce that.



>Whites just can't face up to the
>reality that they aren't as intellegent as they think they are.

Sigh, it must be nice to be a minority and be able to just fire off
racist comments without a care in the world.
-- 
All persons who appear in my dreams should realize that they do so at
their own risk.
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:1581 alt.politics.correct:3684 soc.culture.african:1849
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.news-media,soc.culture.iranian,soc.rights.human,talk.politics.mideast,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: PROMINENT IRANIAN BAHA'I EXECUTED
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:01:59 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <1992Apr14.224820.12251@eng.umd.edu>, alireza@eng.umd.edu (Alireza Karimzadeh-Rad) writes:
> First of all I'd like to ensure you that the Baha'is have been
> prosecuted more brutally than any other group in Iran; I've lived
> there after the revolution, so there's no way you can convince me
> otherwise. And no I'm not a Baha'i. 
> 
> However let's say that what you've stated is true. My question is how
> come Israel sold arms to the government ruling Iran? I'm really
> interested to read your thoughts on this.
> 

Because the U.S. asked them to.  That is the price you pay for
taking the aid, and being an ally, sometimes you have to do
distasteful things that the ally needs you to do.

Now if you want to know why the Americans asked them to, its
because we had a President who thought
he could buy favor with Iranian "moderates".

		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:1393 alt.politics.correct:3620
From: v070km6q@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (John B Schutkeker)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: Sexist African Males
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:27:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

pattisan@midiline.la.ca.us (Patti Hayes) writes...

>    Yes all men are created equal BUT ALL WOMEN ARE CREATED SUPERIOR!!!!!!!

Watch it...  Your previous response and your habit of "shouting" hint
that you are not truly joking, as you might try to pretend.  This is why men
hate PC and feminism so much, because too many women are just using it to
make a self-serving power play.  The above statement is more than just a
Freudian slip, it's a Freudian shout.

					-- john schutkeker
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: agoyo1@gbroagfran.MIT.EDU (yugnikufesin)
Subject: Re: More responses from Ralph Winston forthcoming in a few days!
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 03:41:58 GMT

I was going to send a message supporting Ralph and Faust but Nora Gayle Rivkis
and her Zionist Thought Police intercepted it and changed it into the message you
are reading now.  

Good job Nora!

Can I become an honrary member of the ZTP?
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(see, she did it again!)

  O O
   <          That's a mighty big smile
 \___/




Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:1452 alt.politics.correct:3643 soc.culture.african:1768
From: pmmst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Sexist African Males
Date: 11 Apr 92 02:05:20 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Apr6.230013.24086@anasaz> best@anasaz (Mike Best) writes:
>In article <1992Apr4.225326.11615@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>>In article <1992Mar30.163627.15343@leland.Stanford.EDU> bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert) writes:
>>>reimbursement for past 'misdeeds' done generations ago is indeed ludicrous,
>>>as commented on by the second poster.
>>>
>>>
>>Why ??? First what deeds are you talking about that were done generations ago?
>>Second If you are talking about slavery, ect the AfAm community is STILL
>>suffering form this holocaust. Why shouldn't they receive some sort of
>>compensation ?

  First, because we are judging actions of individuals from a different
 time period by our standards.  We are by virtue of our culture today
 permanently biased in our viewpoint.  We are, in effect, out of context.

  Second, the only way you could believe this would be if you, Dowdy,
 were willing to be personally responsible for the actions of your
 great grandfather/mother.  Are you willing to suffer the sins of
  your relatives?  Naturally, most people would _not_ feel responsible
  for they themselves had not committed the action. 

 Liberals believe in group rights and group responsibility (social is
  the operative prefix to a well known "ism" here) and I don't like
  being held responsible for something I didn't do.

I also suggest that if compensation is handed out that the continent
  of Africa is also held responsible for the AF-AMs own "brothers" 
  were quite involved in obtaining the unfortunate future slaves of
 the New World.  Address this!


 Mike Best
 {mcdphx|asuvax}!asuvax!best

"All that is required to be a conservative is to think clearly"
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:1545 alt.politics.correct:3674 soc.culture.african:1828
From: osele@acsu.buffalo.edu (itiakorit j osele)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Sexist African Males)
Date: 13 Apr 92 21:26:37 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <1992Apr13.143312.26515@mercury.cair.du.edu> rhuffman@diana.cair.du.edu (Robert T. Huffman) writes:
>In article <viking.703149779@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>>
>>Dowdy may enjoy the feeling he gets when he thinks of African slavery as
>>being caused by the white man, but history shows that to be wrong.
>>
>I'm not really sure how any rational human being can believe this.  Sure,
>some opportunistic black Africans benefitted from selling slaves to Arabs
>and Europeans and Americans.  And perhaps some sub-Saharan African cultures
>enslaved other peoples from the continent for their own use.  But face up
>to the facts--it was demand in other parts of the world that caused the
>larger part of the desturction of Africa's population.  I certainly don't
>have any stats, but I suspect my country (US) had more slaves than just about
>any other "civilization" you can name.
>
>I also want to throw in my two cents' worth on who is to blame today.  I
>suppose it is correct for white people today to say "I'm not responsible
>for what my ancestors did."  But can Americans and Europeans (and, for that
>matter, Japanese) say "I'm not responsible for the current state of the
>world?"  I don't think so.  No, we are not responsible for the actions of
>our ancestors, but we have inherited a world from those ancestors in which
>tremendous inequities and injustices exist, and we most definitely do have
>a responsibility to try and correct them.
>
>Robert Huffman
>rhuffman@diana.cair.du.edu

And I would like to ask: why is it that the people you mentioned above
are only to glad to be part of the good things [e.g medical technology]
that they ancestors may helped bring about ? Genuine progress in human
development can only come about if we begin to accept historical
contributions in total both negative and positive. 

Itiakorit  
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:1598 alt.politics.correct:3692 soc.culture.african:1859
From: osele@acsu.buffalo.edu (itiakorit j osele)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Sexist African Males)
Date: 14 Apr 92 22:34:36 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <1992Apr14.191702.5923@wpi.WPI.EDU> padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) writes:
>In article <1992Apr13.212637.2973@acsu.buffalo.edu> osele@acsu.buffalo.edu (itiakorit j osele) writes:
>>
>>And I would like to ask: why is it that the people you mentioned above
>>are only to glad to be part of the good things [e.g medical technology]
>>that they ancestors may helped bring about ? Genuine progress in human
>>development can only come about if we begin to accept historical
>>contributions in total both negative and positive. 
>>
>
>Sure - I'm glad that I'm here to appreciate modern medical technology, and
>I'm glad that I'm here to appreciate a country without slavery. But I do NOT
>take credit for those advances, just like I do not merit blame for slavery
>or bubonic plague, for that matter.
>
>Peter

Of coarse one doesn't take credit directly, but people do it indirectly
by taking pride in what their ancestors did. This is one of the linchips
of racism,  i.e human progress has been the effort of some races and not
others.

What I was wondering aloud in the net was, why not take pride in
the good things AND responsibilty for the bad - it sure would make us
better human beings ?

Itiakorit
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson)
Subject: Re: By the Time I get to Arizona...
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 20:50:45 GMT

In article <1992Apr5.151432.8719@anasaz> john@anasaz (John Moore) writes:
>Keywords: 
>
>In article <1992Apr4.230217.12159@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>]Look at the price that they are willing to pay in order to get that American 
>]dream. Many Asian children don't care about their culture and heritage.
>
>This is bad? I don't cling to my ancestor's German/Dutch/English/Scottish
>backgrounds, and I don't feel any loss.
>-- 
But that's you ! It seems that those of you from european ancestory want the
rest of us to follow in your footsteps. If you want to forget who you are
then fine. But its easy for you since everything is set up for you to
get ahead. 

Dowdy Jackson
Northwestern University
From: arocho@acsu.buffalo.edu (Vance A. Arocho)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
Subject: A Question
Date: 13 Apr 92 04:55:47 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: UB

From: rdippold@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Whites Critical of African Americans

arocho@acsu.buffalo.edu (Vance A. Arocho) writes:
>***** Why are you bringing PC into this? Again you are wrong to compare dif-
>ferent groups. I notice that you failed to respond/comment on a good part of my
>last post. I take it, then, that you agree with me on those points?

Either I agreed with the middle ground we reached on a point, or I
thought we were just repeating ourselves and probably wouldn't reach a
consensus. 

***** Where, pray tell, do our views diverge?

Peace.
-- 
"A young man who is a conservative has no heart; an old man who is a liberal 
has no brain." (Winston Churchill)
"Sin trabajo, no hay nada." ("Without work, there is nothing.")
Vance Arocho: arocho@acsu.edu (SUN)/V068PZYD@ubvms  (VAX)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: rdippold@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: Whites Critical of African-Americans
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:46:12 GMT

dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>>And a system in which substandard performance is subsidized isn't
>>going to affect the views of those who have to deal with it?  I know
>>damn well blacks aren't inferior to whites, from personal experience
>>in school, at work, and off-hours.  However I am not going to give an
>>Affirmative Action beneficiary the same initial level of confidence
>>that I am going to give to someone who made it without such benefits.
>>I don't see AA making blacks look inferior, I see it making the
>>individual blacks who make it when AA is in place look inferior.  Even
>>if they weren't a beneficiary of it.
>>

>How can you tell the difference between your AfAm colleges that have benefited
>from AA from those that haven't ?

You can't always tell.  That's the beauty of Affirmative Action.  You
can't always find out who made it on their own and who got in only
through AA.

>White males have had their own form of AA
>for centuries yet I don't hear you complaining about that... I wonder why ??

Because government backed anti-black discrimination is over with and
I'm not as eager to change the subject as you are.


>>>Whites just can't face up to the
>>>reality that they aren't as intellegent as they think they are.
>>
>>Sigh, it must be nice to be a minority and be able to just fire off
>>racist comments without a care in the world.

>You are only getting a taste of what AfAms get EVERY day.

Well, I'm glad that blacks now have the freedom to indulge their
racism at will.  I'm also glad for you that blacks being subjected to
racism excuses your racism.  Free at last.
-- 
Perfect paranoia is perfect awareness.