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SCA Digest                  Fri,  4 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 600 

Today's Topics:
                         Wayfarer from Lochac
                    Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
                          various and sundry
                        two threads became one
                      Greetings from Ravensnest
        safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
                          Robin Hood Recast
                        A thought about Rialto
                        Truckers Horns/Bridges
                          RK, and your eyes
               Use of Houndstooth in Garb -- Thankyou!
                          Robin hood recast
                             Email to me
                     safety for marshals (2 msgs)
                             Colored tape
        safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
                        A thought about Rialto
                        reply re: period songs
   Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
                Eschew courtesy while discussing it...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 23:10:19 GMT
From: Mark Richard Dewis <mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au>
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Subject: Wayfarer from Lochac
Message-Id: <1992Sep3.231019.17019@cam.compserv.utas.edu.au>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Richard of Dunheved!

I am posting for a freind, Ciaran Faoilchara (Derek Binns) who plans
to be wayfaring in the US and Europe next year, and wants to start
gathering contacts now so that he can correspond with them himself
well before he leaves (he does not have access to electronic mail
himself). He is looking at arriving in the States in about June/July
'93 and to be in Europe from about October through to December '93.

Anyone interested in hosting a nice, quiet Australian for these times,
could you please drop me a line via e-mail and I'll pass your offers 
on to Ciaran.

Thanks in advance!

-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.
-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:01:50 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Message-Id: <Bu1472.CqB@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <Bu0JBE.Dop@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <7887@hq.hq.af.mil> snolan@marge.hq.af.mil writes:
>
>>Our camp surmised that some irate local was on his CB home station
>>telling misinformation about us on the channels used by traffic of
>>I-79.  We figured that someone was telling the beasts to bleat at us.
>>
>>Any other ideas?  
>
A lot of truckers probably blow their airhorns because a) they are bored
from white line fever and we are something unusual and b) they assume
that we must be some sort of Boy Scout Jamboree or other mundane group
and are wishing us well.

>     
Lothar \|/
        0

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:10:49 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: various and sundry
Message-Id: <Bu14M1.D60@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <9209012204.AA08617@isi.com> kevin@isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai) writes:
>Aryk Nusbacher so wonderfully described some early musicians:
>
>> All 'round the fire, the natives had reached back into their race
>> memory and pulled out the primal dances that their ancestors had 
>> done 'round the fires in the dark reaches of the past.  Their 
>> shoulders were hunched, and they pounded out these deep rhythms 
>> of the hunt, of war, even the very rhythms of life.  They were cele-
>> brating these aspects of their existence, both individual and tribal 
>> existence, with spontaneous, heartfelt dance.
>
>Then concluded:
>
>> Just like the Middle Ages.
>
>
>Well, at least it _IS_ pre-17th century. A whole lot pre.
>
>Keradwc
>
No it isn't. It sounds just like an excessively wild night on frat row
in Bloomington, In. Dudes will be Dudes whether you put them in
Budwieser T-shirts and Birkenstocks or Cavalier.

Lothar \|/
        0

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:44:38 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: two threads became one
Message-Id: <Bu10ME.9Du@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <714910190.F00002@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>mike@xenlink.cuc.ab.ca (Mike Johnson) writeth:
>
> MJ> we have at least 2 squires who
> MJ> are members of the animal kingdom. ( 1 dog & 1 cat that I know of). ]
> MJ> At least one of which has a SCA membership. What are the requirements for
>
> MJ> Species????      GRINNNN......
>
>

My God, there's even a period precedent for elevating an animal to high
office, Caligua made his horse a senator! ;) (We King Swaetsox & Fluffy
our Queen do grant this scroll...)

Lothar \|/
        0

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:56:06 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: Greetings from Ravensnest
Message-Id: <Bu13xI.CIF@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <BtwqLv.GqC@agora.rain.com> lcline@agora.rain.com (Larry Cline) writes:
>
>Greetings from Garrick Mayhew,
>
>In article <1992Aug31.023841.13363@ultb.isc.rit.edu> pjb4288@ultb.isc.rit.edu (Pete - Toonatic - Boulay) writes:
>>Greetings from Ravensnest and Lorin Francis Rinaud...
>>
>                ...
>               
>       >
>>I am a user of an electric wheelchair <don't know what to call it scadian>
>>and I've been thinking of how I could outfit it to be more period, and have
>>not come up with many ideas.
>>
>>If any gentle out there has a thought or suggestion, I'd love to entertain it.
>>
>
>This may seem somewhat silly but I have seen one with a horse's various and
>sundry parts.  It does have some drawbacks in close quarters but it is
>entertaining.
>
>Beyond that it seems that most people ignore the presence of the wheelchair,
>as if you had just walked up and sat down.  Others I have seen with various
>other fur and cloth coverings.
>
>
There is a lady named Mistress Gywnniss here in the Middle Kingdom who
has to use a personal mobility vehicle to get around at Pennsic. Since
she is in one of the Dark Horde Groups (I don't know which one), she has
decorated it with a lot of red and black cords and cloth and calls it
her "yak". Very cute.

   As for names for your wheels that don't sound garishly modern, how
about "my chair" or a "wheeled chair", both terms describe the item in
words that were known in period, and medieval technology could have come
up with a wheeled chair if the need had arose for one.
   As a general rule, I like to use words that ignore or conceal an
item's modern origins, rather than coming up with a cutesy term that
points out the fact that it is strange and that I am trying to hide the
fact. (Ex. wagon instead of dragon for car, garderobe instead of
portacastle for nasty chemical toilet at Pennsic).

   Hope I helped,            

   Lothar \|/
           0
                       ...
>
>>
>>In Service,
>>
>>Lorin Francis Rinaud
>>Elder Town Crier
>>Ravensnest, Thescorre, East
>>Campaigne Mercurie
>>-- 
>
>Garrick Mayhew
>-- 
>Larry Cline (Amiga Harpoon Scenario Administrator)
>lcline@agora.rain.com
>C_________   Industrial Graphics
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:24:55 GMT
From: thomas wrentmore barnes <tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Message-Id: <Bu159J.Dv0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <Bu0DA7.7Ft@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.000532.19720@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Alan Kerr) writes:
>
>>In some heraldry, there are 'stains' which are basically a few
>>'natural dye' colors.  
>
>The other heraldic colours were created in the middle ages by aniline and
>petrochemical pigments, of course.  \8-)
>

I have seen wool dyed with natural dyes which is quite bright. None of
the colors are as saturated as their modern equivalents, but I do know
that Weld will give a reasonably bright yellow, some Madder will give a
bright red, and that there is some dye that gives a yellowy orange.
Bright cloth dyes were obtainable in period, they just weren't as
intense as chemical dyes.
   The basic idea of putting non-combatants in bright, easily identified
uniforms of some sort is basically a good one, talk with the powers that
be.
   At Pennsic, at least over the last couple of years, the only battle
where "semi-combatants" were allowed was the woods battle, where scouts
were allowed. Anyone else was either a fighter or a non-fighter.

Hope this helps,

Lothar \|/
        o

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  2 Sep 92 18:51:51 EDT
From: Jeff Lee <smylex!jlee@bloom-beacon.mit.edu>
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)
Subject: Robin Hood Recast
Message-Id: <424-JNEWS-2.1@smylex.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Godfrey!

Lord Ailean Mac an Daroch wrote:
> 
> Might I suggest Master David McDougalls of Rivendell for the Robin
> Hood role.  [...]  he has been known as something of a rogue
> and a little different for years

A *LITTLE* different?  ;-)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 92 23:39:52 GMT
From: Sting <mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <1992Sep3.233952.1830@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In <1992Sep3.212202.26775@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu> cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles) writes:

>I had a thought about making the Rialto work a little more efficiently.

>My idea is to make the Rialto "slightly moderated," in that it could
>have subject-area moderators.

[ ... ]

>Is this system, or something like it, workable?  How much would it
>reduce noise?


From my perspective here, the Rialto has one of the highest signal-to-noise
ratios of any group with similar amounts of traffic on the Internet.  It is
truly refreshing compared to the sheer wall of dreck that confronts me some
mornings wading through the fifty or so groups I keep up with.

Given the amount of traffic that comes through the Rialto in a given day, 
on a huge variety of topics, a moderator's life could quickly become a morass
of drudgery.

I do not believe that it is necessary for us to implement such a bureaucratic
mess as that; we should let the opinions of the Knowne Worlde continue to be
expressed freely and with the same good care and conscience that most of the
contributors to the Rialto seem to have shown throughout the time I've been 
scanning its subject lines.  After all, isn't that what Society courtesy and
respect are all about?


One in favour of less government,
Cragin


Cragin von Pfeffenhausen
Minstrel for Dragon Clan
Sting@Dartmouth.EDU / mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu / (603) 643-5716
  all requests granted!

------------------------------

Message-Id: <MAILQUEUE-101.920904091100.448@saturn.uark.edu>
To: SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu
From: "Paul A. Byers" <PAULB@saturn.uark.edu>
Organization: University of Arkansas
Date: 4 Sep 92 09:11:00 CST
Subject: Truckers Horns/Bridges

There is a bridge on I-79 right around there. (remember the woods
battle when the EK held a banner on the abuttment?) In some regions it
is customary to blow you horn before you cross a bridge to give folks
on the bridge a chance to get off.

I believe that the majority of truckers are doing this. There is a
sign announcing the bridge. This is why they sound off at night too.

Most of the truckers  don't even notice us.

(got to be some other ex-truckers and truckers on the Rialto who
remember the 'honk when crossing a bridge' rule.)

Pavel
Calontir

(was a trucker in my youth)

------------------------------

Message-Id: <MAILQUEUE-101.920904091502.352@saturn.uark.edu>
To: SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu
From: "Paul A. Byers" <PAULB@saturn.uark.edu>
Organization: University of Arkansas
Date: 4 Sep 92 09:15:02 CST
Subject: RK, and your eyes

On radial keratotomy, read all the reports on it. The studies
coming out of the old USSR (were more RK has been done than any were
in the world.) about 40% of the cases the eye does not completely
heal and the lense slowly drys out. This causes a slow degeneration
of sight. (couple years ok, then slowly down hill.) There also have
been some ruptured lenses from light trama after the scars have
compleltly dried out. Plus most folk end up far sighted after the
operation and end up needing glasses anyway.

    My eye doctor (Master Craig Duggen) talked me out of it on a
long trip to Estrella. (I get my eye glasses free, so he was not
lossing money. In fact could have made money. oh yes, he's an
opthalmologist not an optician. he fixes eyes not just sells glasses.
He's also pretty good at stiching those unexpected holes from a Sat.
night on the town :) )

If any one would care to continue this discusion let us take it to e-
mail. It is not a good subject for the Rialto

Pavel
Calontir
pavel@uafhp.uark.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 92 10:44:12 EDT
From: "Mary Knettel (Genevieve du Vent Argent)" <MKNETTEL@kentvm.kent.edu>
Subject: Use of Houndstooth in Garb -- Thankyou!
To: Rialto <SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu>

Thankyou to everyone who responded to my question about using
houndstooth patterned fabric in early period garb.  Thanks
especially to Thora Sharptooth for quoting extensively from
the Jorgensen text.  Not being a "weave-junkie" I'm grateful
for the specific reference!

I've got a lot of reading to do!

-Genevieve du Vent Argent, Marche of Gwyntarian, MidRealm
 Mary Knettel, KSU, Kent, OH  mknettel @ kentvm.kent.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 05:24:29 GMT
From: Curtis Howland <howland@noc.arc.nasa.gov>
Organization: NASA Science Internet Project Office
Subject: Robin hood recast
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.052429.15271@news.arc.nasa.gov>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <715422381.F00003@ocitor.fidonet>, Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt) writes:
...
|>  Will Scarlett: myself, I suppose.....
|>  Friar Tuck: Denis of the Titans (right build and face....)
|> 
|> 
|>                                                         -Ioseph of Locksley
|>                                                          Grump

I must insert here that I can think of no better
Friar Tuck candidate than our own

Baron Dur!

(Take a bow, my land-lord of choice.)

---
Christofer de Hoyland    howland@nsipo.nasa.gov 
Province of the Southern Shores,
Principality of the Mists, Kingdom of the West.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 00:42:00
From: Joe Bethancourt <Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org>
Subject: Email to me
Message-Id: <715500972.F00001@ocitor.fidonet>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

To the gentles of the Rialto......

There seems to be a bit of confusion about how to reach me via E-mail....
as my postings on the Rialto originate in Dallas, Texas USA, (Ansteorra)and 
my home is in Phoenix, AZ USA (Atenveldt).....herewith what I will try to
use as a signature block sort of thing for a while, to remind everyone...

   --------------------------------------------------------------

   I get net-mail at the two addresses below. DO NOT SEND NETMAIL
   OR EMAIL TO THE BBS I POST FROM ON THE RIALTO! It is in Dallas.
   I am in Phoenix........these BBSes are in Phoenix.......and the
   first address is the best. Use the second only if the first one
   bounces.....

   --------------------------------------------------------------

   FIDO                  INTERNET

   1:114/110             Joe.Bethancourt@f110.n114.z1.fidonet.org
   1:114/105             Joe.Bethancourt@f105.n114.z1.fidonet.org

   --------------------------------------------------------------

                                                -Ioseph of Locksley
                                                 Professional Grump

... Beat me! Whip me! Make me wear bad Elizabethians!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 13:11:08 -0700
Message-Id: <9209042011.AA19885@isi.com>
From: Keradwc an Cai <kevin@isi.com>
To: rialto@isi.com
Cc: KEVIN@isi.com
Subject: safety for marshals

Richard, from Storvik, commented on the Marshals safety issue:

(Taken out of order)
> We can all tell stories about melees between units on the same side that 
> resulted when the unit they were both fighting, from different angles, 
> disappeared.  Colored tape on helms only helps when the units are not yet 
> engaged.  Once the weapons start flying it takes yelling and screaming
> to get two same side units to stop killing each other.

No argument there. But ... if,
> With the array of flashing colors that a fighter is presented with during
> combat he can't make identification decisions without stopping and assessing
> the situation.  

it's my opinion that that fighter is improperly trained, and by admission,
unsafe.

If a fighter can't tell that the person he's facing is on 'his side', 
there's no safety problem, and no issue to concern anyone but members of
each unit involved (I DID happen in period, it is NOT a safety issue,
so it's not material here). 

OTOH, if that fighter can't tell that the person he's facing is not 
a combattant BEFORE he attempts to attack, it indicates to me that:

   the fighter has dangerous reflexes       (Pull authorization. Fast.)
   the fighter hasn't been trained properly (More training. Pay Attention.)
   the fighter is confused                  (Don't attack if can't ID.)
   Etc.                                     (DON'T ATTACK IF CAN'T ID!)

The other things we do to maintain a reasonable level safety are far
less subjective. But any fighter who attacks without knowing at the very
least that his opponent IS a combattant, and IS aware of him [barring
non-violent 'death-from-behind'], is a dangerous safety risk, and 
should not be on the field unsupervised.

> A marshal's main defense is identification. 

I've always found a marshal's best defense is vision and mobility. In
the town battle described, both appear to have been somewhat scarce.

> Color coding is less effective than avoidance.

Absolutely.

Keradwc
  kconnery@isi.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 12:36:38 -0700
Message-Id: <9209041936.AA19736@isi.com>
From: Keradwc an Cai <kevin@isi.com>
To: rialto@isi.com
Cc: KEVIN@isi.com
Subject: safety for marshals

Arval noted, responding to Aldric's query about an SCA-wide 'I am not a 
target' identifier, wrote:

> Why do we need a standard?  Currently, the system is fairly clear: Anyone
> on the field who isn't in armor isn't a legal target.  Are there many cases
> of marshalls and scouts being hit by fighters?  Is there really a problem
> here to be solved?

Mikjal Annarbjorn, on the same topic, wrote:

> If the marshallate wants to be easily distinguished from the combatants,
> they should be wearing something that is easily visible and instantly
> distinguished from anything that most combatants would wear.  Reversing
> the current  marshall's badge is a good possible suggestion (ie, black
> swords on yellow).

And (I'm almost done with the quotes, folks...) Aryk Nusbacher asked:

> Is there a widespread problem of marshals getting clocked?  

then stated:

> I suspect that a bit of training would be worth any amount of bright
> orange cloth.  [...] Teaching marshals to duck would be good too.

The only specific instance of a marshall being struck (well, almost)
is one which happened at a Burro Creek war some years back. The marshal
in question was backed up against some of the brush (which was VERY dense).
One fighter, somewhat less subtle, and not having paid attention to the
scenario rules, took a short-cut through the brush.  And, on seeing
a head, apparently decided to swing.

Fortunately, the marshal heard the commotion, and was able to block the
shot (and discovered that closet-dowels aren't sufficient to reliably
stop blows directed at the marshal).

Note that A) the fighter was out-of-bounds when he 'engaged' the 
marshal, and B) obviously hadn't made 'eye-contact', making ANY attack
against our rules. The fact that it was an unarmored marshall....well,
that's just another point. Neither the Atenvelt nor Caidan Earl Marshals 
knew the fighter themselves, and removed the fighter's permission to
fight at the war, and were going to find whoever authorized and/or trained
him. Past that I don't know -- I didn't follow it up.


Arval: The problem to be solved is people targetting non-targets. As Aryk
suggests, this is better done by education than regulation (sound like 
anything you've suggested <g>).

Mikjal: There shouldn't be any need to specifically identify non-combattants.
If a fighter targets someone who is NOT a legitimate target, there is a
training problem. And we cannot prevent carelessness by selecting a different
color pattern.

Aryk: Yup. Training and a _sturdy_ staff. 

All: What was done in situations like this in period? (Did it come up? I 
seem to recall that there were many non-combattants within the 'combat
zone' of most behorts (sp?); what did they do?) If there is a period 
solution, shouldn't it be _THE_ first thing to consider?

Keradwc
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |       Adfui, Feci        |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 15:54:46 -0700
Message-Id: <9209042254.AA20531@isi.com>
From: Keradwc an Cai <kevin@isi.com>
To: rialto@isi.com
Cc: KEVIN@isi.com
Subject: Colored tape

Alexandre, responding to Arval's note:

>Why do we use colored tape to identify sides in large battles?  By doing
>so, we are introducing a modern solution to a problem that we could be
>solving in medieval ways.

wrote:

> Such a little thing he said up there, and yet, I think, 
> quite profound in its own way.

Arval, much to his credit, has said the same thing before, albeit 
usually on other topics. 

I use a similar guideline, and have expanded it to the general question:

What was done to solve <this problem> in period?

If the situation never came up, _then_ check out non-intrusive 
modern solutions. If the situations did come up (as they did here, as
they did to 'identify' non-combattants in melees, etc.), what was done
then? There's at least a millenium's worth of practice to choose from --
and it they didn't HAVE a solution, perhaps it's worth determining if
WE need a solution.

Keradwc
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |       Adfui, Feci        |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

        The easy counter-argument is that in medieval warfare and tourneys
the participants did it much more often and so such measures worked better.
Or to phrase it in a less flattering way - it's too hard to do without tape.

        But, I can't help but think to myself - how hard would it be, really,
to make up tabards for one's troops, to learn enough heraldry to identify
friendly units - at least those from the kingdom, and so on.

        Not terribly, is my gut reaction.  This idea appeals to me so 
instinctively, I am hard put to say why.

        Here is something, though.  At wars (or Grand Tournaments:-), the most
impressive spectacle in the actual fighting, is seeing the liveried units
march out.  I use liveries here in a very loose sense, units with shields
with the same device count.  If there were no tape, such things might be 
encouraged.

        Arval, what a great idea, that hit me square in a blind-spot.


badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Seneschal of Caer Galen, Outlands
               nexus@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"You're still doing the things that I gave up years ago.."-----Lou Reed

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:57:58 GMT
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy@progress.com>
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.135758.17615@progress.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In private mail to the original poster, I mentioned one
problem with the scheme of marking scouts helms with
bright tape.  How are you supposed to sneak around in
the woods when your helm screams "Look at Me!"  "Here
I Am!" to everyone?`

I tried scouting drills in a red shirt once.  It didn't
work.  Later that day, I tried them in a dark green
shirt.  That worked.

        Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:06:09 GMT
From: "A.J.S. Nusbacher" <aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <Bu27AA.IBI@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep3.212202.26775@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu> cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles) writes:

>I had a thought about making the Rialto work a little more efficiently.

That's what Alberto Fujimori said, isn't it?

>My idea is to make the Rialto "slightly moderated," in that it could
>have subject-area moderators.
>
>These would not be moderators in the usual sense, but something more
>like experts or specialists.  An example might be Cariadoc on the
>subject of cooking, or Justin for dance (supposing that either of them
>volunteered for such a position).

So who would be the sarcasm moderator?  Hossein and I would have to fight
it out, no?


Aryk Nusbacher

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 14:04:55 GMT
From: Monica Cellio <mjc+@cs.cmu.edu>
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Subject: reply re: period songs
Message-Id: <mjc.715615495@NL.CS.CMU.EDU>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

I think there is a terminology problem getting in the way of this 
exchange.  Julitta lists the following songs from her repertoire and 
implies that most are period: "Lions", "Dice Game of the 2 Olafs",
"Tale of William the Marshall", "Born on the Listfield", "On Guard",
"Lochmabentown Harper".

Of these, the only one that is period, according to Julitta's notes, is
the last.  Others are about period incidents or people, but that does *not*
mean the song is period.  A song is composed of, among things, language
and music; you can tell a period story in a very non-period way, and you
can tell non-period stories in period ways.  What was under discussion here
was the authenticity of the *songs*.

I have never heard Julitta perform and certainly pass no judgement on her;
I just think people are operating under two different definitions of period.
"Period in feel" and "period" are different, and I am sure that 
misunderstandings can be avoided in the future by using the correct term.

Ellisif

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 15:56:46 GMT
From: Terry Nutter <jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu>
Organization: The Rialto.
Subject: Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
Message-Id: <3406@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings to all, but especially Sarra Graeham, from Angharad 
ver' Rhuawn.

Sarra has posted a marvelous letter on medieval English songs, 
with some lovely references.  (I'd particularly like to second 
the reference to Dobson and Harrison, _Medieval English Lyrics_, 
because it is widely available.  When I get home, I'll try to 
remember to pull my copy and pick up the publisher and ISBN.)

First of all, and before I go any farther: thank you, thank you,
thank you!  That posting took a lot of time and work to put
together, quite apart from the time and work of knowing the 
content that went behind having the idea to do it.  It is a
lovely thing, and I am glad to have seen it, and you should
send it off elsewhere (say, _TI_) to be published as a note
on songs, because I'm sure that many people not on this net
would be _very_ glad to have the benefit of this.

Now a bit on content.

Actually what many Scadians work from in terms of popular 
songs is a few collections from the first decade and a half of 
the 17th C (Thomas Ravenscroft's collections of popular songs 
and rounds; since they are collected rather than written, it is 
reasonable to suppose that they are at least similar to what 
was sung ten to thirty years before, making them stylistically 
appropriate for very late period), and those of the Child ballads 
that have documentable roots in period.  All this material is
Renaissance rather than medieval.  Some of the patterns are the
same, but some are slightly different.  But many people do seem
to misunderstand what those differences are.

So I'd like to add a couple of further notes on ballads.

First, there is a general bias to the effect that ballads are 
very old, and that even those that are first documented latish can 
be presumed to have been sung earlier.  All serious modern 
scholarship attacks this.  (1) There is good reason to suppose 
that few ballads antedate the late 16th C, and no songs in that 
form antedate the 15th (see e.g. Hodgart, _The Ballads_; I believe 
it is a Penguin book; if someone wants to know for sure, write me, 
and I'll pull my copy, also at home, darn it).  (2) There are many 
ballads of which we have many copies and many versions.  The 
evidence from these is that ballads change rapidly, that they 
spring up in one place, spread, and then, in most cases, die away.  
(3)  Not all ballads were written by our old friend Anon.  In some 
cases, we know precisely when a ballad was written, and by whom.
There are other evidences, but I don't have my sources with me,
and I don't want to keep going without them....

There are ballads with early roots (though we frequently have 
only references to their early forms) that have supernatural 
elements.  They largely correspond, even in their OOP form, with 
Mistress Sarra's observation that old supernatural = Christian.  
The primary counterexamples are the first few ballads in Child
(as I recall, 1-3; Child 1 is the song from which, way way down
the line, Scarborough Fair is descended), which refer to elf
knights.  Virtually all other supernatural beings are ghosts or
devils, and the setting is clearly Christian.

If you go through Ravenscroft, you will also find that although 
the subject matters of his songs and rounds (not ballads -- they
are a specific form, and very few of Ravenscroft's songs are
ballads, the best known exceptions being "The Three Ravens" and
"Yonder Comes a Courteous Knight") are very different from those 
of the songs Mistress Sarra cited, the rule of "No real names, now" 
is astonishingly consistent -- as it is in much Elizabethan art 
music (does Dowland _ever_ name a party to the tale of a song?).  

In short, Steeleye Span is a bad model, and so are 60s folk songs.

Again, thanks, Sarra!  I love to see real actual citations and
stuff.  (I suppose that means I should do more of it....)  

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 22:23 EDT
From: DEW%PSUECLC.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Eschew courtesy while discussing it...
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings all!

(at no peril to myself...)

Courtesy and tolerance are the two minimal characteristics that you have to
have to play in the SCA...this does _not_ mean that you tolerate discourtesy in
discourse.


Arval resonds to the question:

> Should there be a "courtesy" requirement for peerage orders?  And should
> it be enforced?

>Yes, I believe so.  Peerage is a recognition that an individual is a model
>of what the SCA strives to be.  It has preconditions - one must achieve a
>certain level of skill or show a certain level of service to the Society -
>but in the final analysis, it should not be given if the candidate does not
>embody the qualities of courtesy and honor that the Society holds as its
>prime virtues.  That is basically what I meant a few days ago when I wrote
>that our awards are given for what you are, rather than for what you've
>done.

(I just can't take this serious...so know that this whole comment is ridden
with smileys)

Recognizing Virtues?  Embodiment of Qualities?  Great concept, but last time I
checked, feet of clay was one of the aspects that all humans have in common.
"Recognized for prowess" OR "given a pacifier" is the most prevalent reason
given for granting awards like these (the exception is were you hear nearly
everybody make the comment, "well, it's about time!")

>I think it is clear that there must be _some_ requirements for entry to the
>peerage other than skill and/or learning alone; otherwise, there are
>thousands of musicians, dancers, embroiders, etc. in the real world who
>could walk into an SCA meeting and be peers the next day.  I sometiems put
>it this way: Peerage is a recognition that the candidate has made the SCA
>part of herself, and herself part of the SCA.  It is a recognition that the
>candidate needs no further reward, and is one of the people who make the
>Society wonderful for the love of it.

Come on, Arval!  Everybody KNOWS that peers are Born...not created by hard
work at thankless tasks (without botching them, like losing important
documents or violation of policy).  Of course, they might have made an
exception for those who "served their office well", rather than the people for
whom that office was created to serve...you never know.

>I know that the Order of the Pelican (at least in the Pennsic kingdoms)
>takes the courtesy requirement very seriously.  The logic, I think, is that
>to serve the Society effectively, one must have a courteous outlook toward
>everyone.  If you go around pissing people off, you can't accomplish much
>of anything.

From this passage, one might conclude that once you have one of these awards
that you may "piss-off with impunity"!  Pelicans take courtesy serious?!?
Shirely you jest...

>Not being a member of any other peerage order, I cannot say how those
>orders view the courtesy requirement.  From the outside, it appears that
>the Chivalry do weight this factor in their discussions, but that their
>focus is primarily on courtesy on the field.  There have been times when it
>seemed that the Laurel was giving very little weight to the courtesy
>requirement, and other times when it seemed they were considering it quite
>seriously.

So you conclude with allusions to the lack of courtesy in the other
peerages--where does this leave you in the balance?


(The preceeding was closed captioned with smileys for the humor impaired.)

Salam,
Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain
dew@ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)

"I'm the Baron!  Ya gotta loath me!"

------------------------------

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