HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: weaver@iam.unibe.ch (Dave Weaver)
Subject: Re: The Steve Martin movie "Leap of Faith"
Organization: SPS
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 15:43:12 GMT


In article 725598558@marsh, martin@cs.curtin.edu.au (Martin Dougiamas) writes:
> 
> Bitter? No.  Angry, yes, that Hollywood abuses the medium of film 
> by presenting *opinions* as *fact* using very powerful techniques 
> like big screens, beautiful people and domineering music.
>

If you're serious about this, get prepared to be angry for a *long*
time. We're you as offended by Oliver Stone presenting opinions as 
fact in "JFK"? How about in "Last Temptation..."? To be consistant,
you will have to be angry at every pseudo-documentary feature film.
From the tone of your original post, it appears you wouldn't have 
objected if the opposite opinions were presented as fact. 

---
Dave Weaver                   
weaver@chdasic.sps.mot.com
Please don't construe this as support for faith healers.
From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: I.Q. & Brains
Date: 29 Dec 92 23:58:18 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland

In article <1992Dec29.180508.10935@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:

>If the measure is flawed, then it is worse than having no measure at
>all, because your measure is then misleading.  You seem to have a very
>casual attitude towards these sort of things.

It's not flawed, it works as it should. But it doesn't measure every aspect
of intelligence, that's all.

>
>SD


--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
/o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
\__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:24784 talk.religion.misc:24956 alt.pagan:14837
From: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Moral Liberty
Date: 2 Jan 93 23:44:41 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire

[reply to wooyoung@acs.bu.edu]
 
>Whether one believes in god or not, he or she cannot deny the fact that
>religion is a social institution that guides the morality of the
>society...The religious organizations should learn and adopt to the
>societal changes.  They should try to balance Skinnerian approach
>(inducing behavior with positive and negative feedbacks) with more
>humanistic approach (e.g. educating the value of "just" behavior)
 
While it is true that religions have traditionally been the teachers of
morality, there is nothing about a belief in God that makes one more
moral.  In fact, religion confuses morality by mixing ethics with taboos
and superstitions, and it hardly needs mentioning that a great deal of
immorality is committed in the name of God.  For example, the current
war in former Yugoslavia is not an ethnic war but rather a religious
one.  The warring Serbs, Croats, and Muslims are of the same ethnic
origin but have different religions.
 
Secular Humanism was founded as an atheistic ethical philosophy.  It
proved that it is quite possible for people to agree on an ethical canon
(the Humanist Manifestos I and II) just by asking what would lead to the
best existence for all mankind.  I sincerely believe that the world
would be a better place if everyone abandoned religion and became a
Secular Humanist.  I don't really buy the argument that fear of Hell
keeps people in line.  If there is any effect of religious membership on
moral behavior, it is more likely peer group pressure.

David Nye
nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:24624 talk.religion.misc:24800
From: zitsky+@CS.CMU.EDU (Mark Ryan Miller)
Subject: Re: Judge Sends Girl To Church
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University
Distribution: alt.atheism
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:15:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.222918.2655@b11.b11.ingr.com>, sidney@b11.b11.ingr.com (Sidney Smith) writes:
|> 
|> I was recently watching COURT TV when something very
|> disturbing happened. They were showing different
|> juvenile cases in a Texas court room, when the judge
|> ordered a little girl to go to church and ask her
|> pastor what church work she should perform for
|> punishment. The judge gave her a specific number of
|> hours of "community service" to perform at her church,
|> and told her to tell her pastor to call the judge up
|> and report the young girl's progress. I don't see
|> how the judge can call this "community service".
|> 

You didn't point out if the girl already belonged to a/the church or
not?  Did she protest?  I think that we, as atheists, need to distinguish between a case where she was given a choice of church based on her own experience, beliefs, etc. and where the judge arbitrarily decided to exert her own religious beliefs on the defendant.

--Mark
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: New Mexico State University
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 02:35:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.230954.1235@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.194627.15692@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
>>>
>>>Here is a brief summary of some studies, which I am sure will interest
>>>no one on this thread.  For every study there is the counterargument
>>>that it proves nothing. 
>>
>>[Long list of studies deleted]
>>
>>Now *that's* more like it.  You could learn from this guy, Iikka--he
>>actually went out and found something to substantiate this position.
>>Also, he takes due note of the fact that counterarguments exist to
>>these studies.
>>
>>Why couldn't you go do this, Iikka?  Why did you need to flame and
>>insult instead?
>
>I'm sorry, but I have a tendency to laugh at people like you. *You* should
>take example to this person, as this is what I wanted as replies to my post.
>Contrary to your beliefs, not everyone is like you. 

What's the matter Iikka--don't have a library over there in Finland?
Couldn't take the time to look up a few of these studies before
reaching your conclusion?  What, must everything be handed to you on a
dish?  

(I am deliberately mimicking statements you have made to me, so that
you begin to understand how insulting they sound.)

>What I don't understand, why you have to make up such things that I insulted
>or flamed you. I have no intention whatsoever to insult people in discussions
>as it is both naive and just creates a lot of junk posts. As you probably
>notice, you haven't been much of a benevolent factor in this discussion. Well,
>I suppose I have all the info I need on this subject.

Why?  Because I upset you?  If you don't like people asking you for
proof of your assertions, then go home and hide under your bed.  This
is not a bedtime story, and you are not (hopefully) a child.

(I hope by reading my paraphrases of statements you have made to me,
you begin to understand that, though it may be contrary to your
intentions, you really have flamed many times in this discussion.)

SD
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: sumner@math.scarolina.edu (David Sumner)
Subject: The Book of Job
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 30 Dec 92 19:08:32 GMT


The book of JOB has been the topic of several messages 
lately.
A commonly heard comment from the Xtain side is this:
(From Scott S Parish )
 
> Satan was the one coming before God accusing Job of only
> serving God for the cash, land, camels, sheep, etc.  So, 
>to prove Satan wrong He allowed Satan to rake Job over the 
> coals.  It wasn't so much to punish or torture (as you put 
> it) Job, as to put Satan in his place.  
 
Isn't it strange that God needs to 'prove' something to 
Satan? Don't the Christians realize how insecure this makes 
their god appear to be? He  hurts an innocent man just to 
make a point with the Devil.
David
 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: schnitzi@cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius)
Subject: Re: Violence in the bible?
Organization: University of Central Florida
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:30:08 GMT

joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter) writes:

>In article <schnitzi.725571303@eola.cs.ucf.edu> schnitzi@cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius) writes:
>>Interesting!  So, in summary, the Bible calls for the death penalty 
>>in these cases:
>>o  Murder
>>o  Witchcraft
>etc...
>>
>>Comments, Xians?

>This applied to the jews for the jews to carry out.  The jews were to be 
>submissive to the law.  

Wow.  Does this go for the Ten Commandments, too?  Your power to
rationalize is truly frightening.

>A death sentance is not 'murder' but justice.

For working on a Sunday?  You have a twisted sense of justice, friend.

mark
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: jwest@wisc (Jeff West)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: world,public
Date: 31 Dec 92 12:08:49 CST


To Brian C.
  Your not believing that the earth is ~5000 years old leads to another
interesting question.
  Where "in time" does Adam and Eve fit in with all of history?  We can
show that there were countless other species living millions of years
ago.  We humans there at that time too?

Jeff

---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not denial.  I'm just very selective about the reality I accept.

    - Calvin & Hobbs

Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: did I like miss your point?
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 93 09:53:14 GMT

Didn't O'Hare seek some sort of legal action against some Apollo astronauts
for praying on a publically funded spacecraft?  (Like three guys millions of
miles from earth in a machine built by the lowest bidder should be denied the
right to call on the deity of their choice!)

As for other fanatical atheists, here in Colorado we have folks who fight
any sort of publically visible (as opposed to publically funded) religious
symbols-- crosses on the outside of churches, highway signs saying "Mother
Cabrini Shrine", displays on private property, and so forth.  At the
Colorado People's Fair there was a group advocating taxation of religions
but not other non-profit organizations.  Followers of alternative religions
should take note of this last-- if it came into practice, either YOUR
religion would be taxed, or if it wasn't, this would constitute government
sanctioned religious discrimination.


Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Distribution: world,public
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:48:11 GMT

[In Response to Mike McAngus's post]

Try figuring out first what 'insult' means.

--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
/o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
\__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: lucio@phyrql.Alt.ZA (Lucio de Re)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Reply-To: lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA
Organization: MegaByte Digital Communications
Distribution: world,public
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 08:23:28 GMT

muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:

>In article <1992Dec28.122831.21650@walter.cray.com> jwest@wisc (Jeff West) writes:
[ ... Jeff, I omit the leader because such pain need not be repeated ... ]
>>
>>	Jeff "you really hit my hot button" West

>Lets clear something up - all things work together for good FOR THOSE WHO
>LOVE THE LORD.  If my daughter was in this circumstance, she would be in
>physical pain, but she would be secure in the knowledge of her eternal life
>through Christ, and though I would also be in much pain - probably more than
>her - God would use it to strengthen my character.  Who are we to argue with
>God?

Where was your god when a four-year old girl, who would hardly be able
to tell the difference, was suffering?  Ch-rist, even my Roman Catholic
priests would not be so arrogant!  John, I dislike your type intensely,
less arrogance drove me from the RC church and eventually from
Christianity.  And I've learnt in the process that your ilk deserves no
more than be squashed at the slightest opportunity, which I do with glee.

Now get your ass out of alt.atheism fast, before I find out more about
you and your family.

>John M.
-- 
Lucio de Re (lucio@phyrql.Alt.ZA)
The supernatural does not exist, but it gives me the creeps...
From: David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Why Colorado?!
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov 17 1992
Date: 23 Dec 92  15:53:50

In article <1992Dec18.123130.8507@walter.cray.com>
jwest@wisc (Jeff West) WAS SEEN WRITING:
 
JW> "Having lived in Colorado Springs until recently and still
JW> having many friends there I can attest to the influx of fundi
JW> groups to the Springs. Why they have choosen there is anyones
JW> guess.  Maybe the beautiful countryside and great skiing!  If
JW> so that's all we have in common."
 
I know why: MONEY. The cult "Focus on the Family" moved from
Pasadena California to Colorado Springs Colorado because one
of their cult members died and left valuable property to the
cult. "Focus on the Wallet" (er, ah, I mean "Family") was in
a hot spot with California taxes--- they were selling books
and tapes and taking in millions of dollars a month from
ignorant fools (who got no goods or services in exchange)
without paying taxes. California noted that the cult was a
business, and should pay taxes on their income. Why they are
protected in Colorado is beyond me.

--- Maximus 2.01wb
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,poly.club.atheists
From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: Rebellion against Santa?
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:16:35 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.022711.124572@zeus.calpoly.edu> jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (John Munch) writes:
>It never ceases to amaze me why people have such cold hearts, as to
>continue to deny their belief in Santa. I'm sure you all know what I
>mean. We've all heard of malcontents, who seek to destroy their
>spiritual relationship with Santa. Why deny it? Santa is the one true 
>light in our world. My call is to all of you who remain strong in
>Santa. We have to reach out to those less fortunate than us, who don't
>know Santa in their hearts, and help to guide them into proper thinking.
>We have to use any means necessary to win this glorious battle for truth,
>and Santa. Thank you fellow Santaists.

Thank you for your moving message of hope.  In this holiday season,
we can sometimes forget the real meaning of our celebration.
Let us renew our humble efforts to live a Santalike life.

>                     -Yours in Santa,
>                         John David Munch
>___________________________________________________________________________
>| And Santa Claus said unto Rudolph, "Won't you guide my sleigh tonight?" |

This quotation from the Acts of Santa has always been one
of my favorites.  Let me share some other Santa scriptures which
have given me strength in our world of confusion and despair:

"I am the Lights, the Toys, and the Nog".
     Epistle to the Elves (2:13).

"Blessed are they who leave cookies and milk, 
for they shall receive presents".
     from the Santatudes.

"Whosoever sleeps the sleep of peace, they shall receive gifts.
But whosoever remains awake, even past midnight,
shall sleep the sleep of emptiness".
     Epistle to the Children (1:3).

"Before there were shopping malls, I am".
     Genesis (5:5)

"Thou shalt not kindle fire in thy fireplace".
     Proverbs (3:19).

"And these signs shall be seen.  When the days become
short, and the nights become long, then shall the faithful
laden their trees with ornaments and lights, and the
merchants shall paint their windows with joyful greetings,
and images of Santa and the Holy Reindeer shall appear
in all places.  Then shall Santa appear, and the children
shall sit on the right knee, and their photos will be
taken, and their prayers shall be heard".
     Revelations (10:11-18).

"And on the next day, Santa spake, 'Hi Honey, I'm home!'.
And Santa rested".
     Acts of Santa (79:30).

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
       A Lie is still a Lie, even if you believe it.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: schnitzi@cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: University of Central Florida
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:22:55 GMT

iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>>>Dream on. I never attack anybody emotionally. Last time I did that 8 years ago.
>>  Quit with the mind fuck, Iikka.  You're not particularly good at
>>  it.  And I, who am not even a scientiest or professional logician,
>>  have seen more logical absurdities in your posts than I could possibly 
>>  enumerate in a single response.  Quit playing so close to your
>>  chest.  Or are my emmotional attachments leaking through again?  
>If you don't like the whole idea of the discussion, why not say so? Are you
>a Christian who is offended? Do you think I would get angry or lose my temper
>because of this discussion? What would it benefit me if I went about flaming
>people? I don't think you'll get anywhere by flaming me, either, as it won't
>change the topic.

Gee, what was the topic?  It's been so long...

That's it.  I'm killing this whole thread.  Change the title if you want
to start discussing the subject again.  I'm sick of this arguing about 
arguing.

mark
From: joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Violence in the bible?
Date: 2 Jan 93 03:10:43 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos

In article <1992Dec31.162350.7234@jcnpc.cmhnet.org> mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus) writes:
>Joe Beiter (joeb@arden.linet.org) wrote:
>: Me personally?  Hell no I think its damm harsh.  What sane human being could
>: stand up and say "I think you should die because you thought of 'doing' Mrs.
>: Henderson"? (knowing full well I thought of it myself).
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>So, if I never thought of "doing" Mrs. Henderson (I'm assuming we are talking 
>about sex with a married woman who is not your wife) then I am justified in 
>executing the man who did "do" Mrs. Henderson (assuming he is not Mr. 
>Henderson)?
>
>As you point out, no sane person could condone such "justice".

naw my point was adultery=death, thinking of it=adultery, therfore thinking
of it=death.  I was pointing out that our sense of justice falls far short
of what the Bible says God's is.

>: God (of The Bible) is not like us.  You're talking a different set of scales
>: here.
>
>If the "justice" is immoral by our limited standards, how can it be moral by a 
>"different set of scales"?  From human experience, justice tends to become more
>humane as peoples philosophical basis expands.

relativity.

>I'm "convinced Hes (sic) not there" because he has never given me any evidence 
>that he is there.  Nor has any other diety given me such evidence.

That doesn't help me in particular but I respect your 'non-observance'.

>Mike McAngus 			 | You are a fluke of the Universe.  You have no 


-- 
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
|Joe.Beiter@arden.linet.org               The Long Island Network Project   |
|The Courts of Chaos Semi-Public Access   Long Island New York: USA         |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
From: tscwhitehead@vx9000.weber.edu (Clarke Whitehead)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Violence in other religious texts?
Date: 3 Jan 93 19:31:00 GMT
Organization: Weber State University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

The quotes of violence in the Bible were very interesting.  Can anyone tell
me of other religious works such as the Qur'an or Bhagavad Gita (spelling?)
have similar types of violent language?  I know the Book of Mormon does.

Clarke
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Date: 29 Dec 92 06:26:14 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Dec28.112747.22088@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>
>Yes, I have read some things they have wrote, and found nothing to indicate
>high intelligence.
>
>>
>>Why are you so hostile to those who disagree with you?
>
>Dream on. I never attack anybody emotionally. Last time I did that 8 years ago.

  Quit with the mind fuck, Iikka.  You're not particularly good at
  it.  And I, who am not even a scientiest or professional logician,
  have seen more logical absurdities in your posts than I could possibly 
  enumerate in a single response.  Quit playing so close to your
  chest.  Or are my emmotional attachments leaking through again?  


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"Look, I tried the cat experiment.  On the third trial, the cat was
dead.  On each of the subsequent 413 trials, it remained dead.  Am I
doing something wrong?"
			James Nicoll

Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!
From: mrmike@michelotti.ae.ge.com ("Mr. Mike" Passaretti)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The Bible As A Rorschach
Date: 29 Dec 92 16:00:50 GMT
	<1992Dec28.230529.19778@arden.linet.org>
Reply-To: Mike Passaretti <passaretti@crd.ge.com>
Organization: GE Aircraft Engines, Cincinnati OH


# In article <1992Dec28.230529.19778@arden.linet.org>, 
# joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter) writes:

# In article <9211241258.AA21354@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com> 
# I3150101@DBSTU1.RZ.TU-BS.DE (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:

benedikt> Actually not, because his biographers - or inventors - could
benedikt> have easily adjusted the biography to fit the prophecies.

joe> and then proceed to be crucified, boiled in oil, stoned,
joe> sawn in half etc...  knowing full well the lie they were
joe> dying for.  The fact is, they either witnessed the
joe> fullfilling of these prophecies and deemed it worth dying
joe> for or they fudged and knew the real truth.

joe> hint: Start claiming all the apostles really didn't get
joe> martyred and IT was all a lie too!

Actually, if my memory does not fail me, John die of natural
causes.  People have died for many ideas.  This does not make
thos ideas just, right, or correct, only capable of creating
such strong devotion in their followers that they will die for
them.  People have died to give power to lies before too.
People are strange that way.  
                                                        - MM
-- 
passaretti@crd.ge.com           {whatever}!crdgw1!copernicus!passaret
mrmike@michelotti.ae.ge.com     {whatever}!crdgw1!copernicus!michelotti!mrmike
Newsgroups: alt.atheism