From: ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben)
Subject: Re: Amateur Archeology & Today's Net (was What a Strange Newsgroup)
Reply-To: ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:58:50 GMT


In a previous article, bobp@hal.com (Bob Pendleton) says:

>From article <1dkn5mINNiba@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, by bm665@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jay Robert Hauben):
>> 
>> In a previous article, danr@ais.org (Daniel Romanchik) says:
>> 
>>>
>>>What a strange newsgroup this has turned out to be.  I suggest you
>>>change the name to alt.amateur.politics or alt.soapbox.hauben.
>>>
>> 
>>      The alt.amateur-comp newsgroup carries on the tradition of 
>> the Flint Sit-Down strikers who encouraged full debate over all 
>> topics of interest and importance to workers. Why does that 
>> offend Daniel?
>
>Perhaps because the name of the group is "alt.amateur-comp" most
>reasonable people would expect it to be a place where "amateur
>computing" is discussed. That, you see, is a usenet tradition, name a
>news group for what it discusses.

The newsgroup is basically discussing the articles and subjects that are
covered in the Amateur Computerist Newsletter.

The Far Future thread that is now ongoing developed from an article "The Future"
that was in vol 4 no 4 of the newsletter.

Also the newsletter covers shop news and history of computers and has an
open access section where people can submit their views on various 
subjects and the newsletter has programs in it and it has a problem corner
for people to submit computer problems they are having to.

I suspect that people who have such problems feel a bit intimidated about
submitting them here as there are so many computer newsgroups on usenet
that they probably feel they should submit them there.

For example last night I had trouble with my mailbox (not at youngstown
freenet but at another email address I  have).


Elm wouldn't let me get into my mailbox.

I got a message that 
newmbox - length of mbox. != spool mailbox length!!
write to temp file failed - exiting leaving mailbox in tact

Also the talk program wasn't working so I couldn't get anyone on line
at the time to help.

I came to youngstown freenet and tried to figure out on usenet where I 
would post the problem as its very serious when one can't get into ones
mailbox. I didn't know that people look at the alt.amateur-comp to try
to be helpful - I went to unix.questions and there was lots to read 
and generally it seemed that one should think twice about posting 
there and read books first or ask people at their site - I looked in the 
books I had and I tried to send mail to the administrator of thje site.

So then I did post in unix.questions.

I agree that people should be encouraged to post such problems in 
alt.amateur-comp

I'm new to unix too and there are lots of things that I would like to do that 
I can't quite do because I can't use unix yet the way I need to be able to.

For example - I realize there should be an FAQ in this newsgroup that
encourages people to post their problems as we do in our problem corner
in the newsgroup.

But I haven't been able to do that yet  - I read the posts on how
to make an FAQ and it requires being able to use perl to deal with
the expiry date.

The newsgroup is only 2 months old.

Maybe we should keep the latest issue of the Amateur Computerist posted
so people will have a better idea of the range of topics that they can post.

Also, the description of the newsgroup that we originally entered when
we entered the control  message for the newsgroup - which said to discuss the 
subjects and distribute the Amateur Computerist - was changed by
someone so "discuss the subjects" was omitted.

I haven't know how to make the correction (that is in the description that
comes up on tin and other newsreaders when you select this group)



>
>Now, I've been skimming this group since it started. You see, I get
>paid to do computing, and have a lot of experience in the field. I
>figured if this was a place that amateurs were going to hang out that
>maybe an "old hand" could be of help from time to time. Not to mention
>the fact that amateurs and newbies often have valuable alternative
>views of things. Getting your world view shaken up every couple of
>days tends to keep you flexible. And in a field where the half life of
>knowledge is about 2 years, you stay flexible or you die.

Good to hear that you feel the way we do about "amateurs".

My sense is that it will take some work to have the group do what you
propose, but that is one of the things I hoped would happen as well.

Unfortunately because several of theeditors of the amateur computerist are
new at usenet and at unix its harder to do the things that
we hoped would happen.

A few of the editors are only just now getting their modems so they can
be online.
>
>But, what do I find here?
>
>I don't find discussions of amateur computing. 
>
>I find discussions of the labor movement. I have some sympathy for the
>labor movement. There are a lot of hard rock miners in my ancestry.
>But, that isn't amateur computing. 

We welcome such discussions - and hope we figure out how to have them happen
as an important piece of what happens here.

I want to go on and answer further - but I've gotten the 5 minute warning
from youngstown freenet
 - this is important and I hope other people will respnd as well - I 
>

>I haven't seen a single article in the group that relates to its name.
>A good name for this group would be alt.labor-movement, or perhaps
>alt.flint_sit-down_strikers. But, alt.amateur-comp? No, this isn't
>about amateur computing.
>
>I like what you are doing, but the name does not describe what you are
>doing and it is going to be a constant irritant and source of
>disappointment for people who drop in to see what is being discussed
>here.
>
>What's happening is something I've seen happen many times before.
>You've jumped into a new world, but you're still acting like you're in
>Flint. Let me tell you, you aren't in Flint any more. You're out in
>the big wide net.world. If you're going to have to learn how this
>world works.
>
>				Bob P.
>
>P.S.
>
>You might have noticed, most of the people on the net have no idea why
>anyone would ever want to join a union. Many, if not most, would
>refuse a job if they had to join a union to get the job. Think about
>it.
>-- 
>Bob Pendleton             | As an engineer I hate to hear:
>bobp@hal.com              |   1) You've earned an "I told you so."
>Speaking only for myself. |   2) Our customers don't do that.
>                   <<< Odin, after the well of Mimir. >>>
>
-- 
Ronda Hauben                    email address:ae547@yfn.ysu.edu
Amateur Computerist Newsletter              or
P.O. Box 4344                   rhauben@heartland.bradley.edu
Dearborn, MI 48126
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp