HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jrs@netcom.com (John Switzer)
Subject: Re: Length of Descriptions in Adventure Game
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:24:17 GMT

In article <37210@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> let@insect.cis.ufl.edu (Luis E. Torres) writes:
>I've been writing an adventure game using the Adventure Game Toolkit (AGT).
>I've been at it for quite a few months, and I've finished the room, object,
>person, and some event descriptions. I have been playing a test version in
>which I move around the place, reading the descriptions, and stuff like
>that.
>
>The problem is, the few friends I've shown the test version to say the
>descriptions are too long. Each description is, on average, about 16 to 20
>lines on an 80-character PC screen. This is also true of most person
>descriptions.
>
>I actually like most of the descriptions, as I think they add some feel to
>the game, and also, a couple of them are a bit funny. I don't feel they are
>too long, I think they're what they should be. But they look long, when
>compared to the descriptions used in Infocom games.
>
>So, does anybody out there have any opinions on the appropiate length of
>descriptions? I would really like to hear opinions from the people on
>r.a.i-f who have written/are writing/are planning to write(aren't we all...
>8-) ) adventure games.

Consider it this way - you're writing an interactive novel, which means 
that there is the added dimension of the gamers' involvement. The gamer
wants to explore and do things, and these people 
think the descriptions are too long, then they are. Most writers, especially
beginning ones, are way too wordy, and I'm sure this applies to game writing,
too. You should first cut out everything that is not essential and then 
try that out. If that works, then you might be able to add a few things back 
in, but you have to start from the basics, which means essentials only.

20 lines might be an acceptable length for a description for an involved
room, but it definitely is too long for most people descriptions. 
-- 
John Switzer               | 50 years from now, nobody will
                           | remember Candice Bergen or Murphy
74076.1250@Compuserve.com  | Brown, but every school kid will
jrs@netcom.com             | be taught about President Quayle.
From: dmb@lf.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: TADS
Date: 28 Sep 92 05:03:51 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

In article <1992Sep28.023734.12682@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas) writes:
>There is a shareware program on archive.umich.edu called TADS.ZIP.  It is
>a Text Adventure Design System (or something like that) that appears to 
>be capable of developing some pretty complex text-adventure games through
>the use of 'C' style programming.  Has anyone ever worked with this software
>before? 

IMHO, TADS is great; you should register and get the whole kit.  You
won't be disappointed.  For examples of full-length adventures created
with it, see the following:

	PC and compatibles:
	------------------

		msdos.archive.umich.edu:

			msdos/games/textadv/unnkul12.arc
			msdos/games/textadv/unnk2v20.zip

	Mac:
	---	

		mac.archive.umich.edu:
		
			mac/games/adventure/unnkulian1.03.sit.hqx
			mac/games/adventure/unnkuliantwo2.0.sit.hqx

	Atari ST:
	--------

		atari.archive.umich.edu:

			atari/games/tads/unnkul12.arc
			atari/games/tads/unnk2v20.arc

TADS is a very solid and well-supported system, with which the Infocom
games of the 80's would be quite straightforward to write.

Dave Baggett
--
dmb@ai.mit.edu           MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory                  
ADVENTIONS: interactive fiction (text adventures) for the 90's!
dmb@ai.mit.edu *** Compu$erve: 76440,2671 *** GEnie: ADVENTIONS
From: dmb@case.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Length of Descriptions in Adventure Game
Date: 1 Oct 92 14:09:10 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

In article <1992Sep30.220046.11344@ida.liu.se> c89ponga@odalix.ida.liu.se (kand. Pontus Gagge) writes:
>That *is* too long; it makes the reader/player too passive.

Bah humbug.  How can you guys be saying this when you've never played a
game like the one described?  No one's ever released a game like that,
so how do you know what it would really play like?

>Why not use a stratagem Infocom employed in some later games (ah!
>Trinity!): achieving great detail by having *hierarchies* of
>descriptions?

The two things are not mutually exclusive!  If I put you in a room with
a three page description, that doesn't mean you won't have lots of
stuff to play with in the room.  In fact, the trend in my current game
is very much towards spending a long time in each room, since there's
an hour of stuff to do versus in an Infocom where there's five minutes
of stuff to do (unless you're in the middle of a puzzle).

Optimally, we'll have breadth *and* depth in our games.

Dave Baggett
--
dmb@ai.mit.edu           MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory                  
ADVENTIONS: interactive fiction (text adventures) for the 90's!
dmb@ai.mit.edu *** Compu$erve: 76440,2671 *** GEnie: ADVENTIONS
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
From: iott@rtsg.mot.com (Joel K. Iott)
Subject: Re: TADS
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:10:22 GMT

In article <28491@life.ai.mit.edu> dmb@lf.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett) writes:
>
>It doesn't run under Unix because the author (Mike Roberts) doesn't
>really want the source to widely available, and binary-only Unix
>distributions are kind of silly.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I assume you mean here that a binary distribution would only run on one
specific implementation of UNIX.

Would it be possible to do the same thing for TADS that infocom did - have the
source compiled into a intermediate language, and then create an interpreter
for each machine/operating system type?

The infocom interpreter has a primitive instruction set - somebody said that it
emulates the behavoir of a microprocessor used in an old Atari microcomputer. 
It is virtually impossible to reconstruct the infocom source. Likewise, it
would be impossible to reconstruct the TADS source.

--
Joel
From: let@insect.cis.ufl.edu (Luis E. Torres)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Length of Descriptions in Adventure Game
Date: 30 Sep 92 13:39:39 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Florida CIS Dept.

I've been writing an adventure game using the Adventure Game Toolkit (AGT).
I've been at it for quite a few months, and I've finished the room, object,
person, and some event descriptions. I have been playing a test version in
which I move around the place, reading the descriptions, and stuff like
that.

The problem is, the few friends I've shown the test version to say the
descriptions are too long. Each description is, on average, about 16 to 20
lines on an 80-character PC screen. This is also true of most person
descriptions.

I actually like most of the descriptions, as I think they add some feel to
the game, and also, a couple of them are a bit funny. I don't feel they are
too long, I think they're what they should be. But they look long, when
compared to the descriptions used in Infocom games.

So, does anybody out there have any opinions on the appropiate length of
descriptions? I would really like to hear opinions from the people on
r.a.i-f who have written/are writing/are planning to write(aren't we all...
8-) ) adventure games.

Luis
let@cis.ufl.edu
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: The Mist
Date: 4 Oct 92 02:01:20 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

Hello.  My girlfriend had saw a game -- which she thinks was a text 
adventure -- in the stores called The Mist.  It was apparently based on a 
Steven King story of the same name.  She didn't buy it at the time, and 
she can't find it anywhere now.  Does anyone know what this is, and/or 
where she could find it?  Thanks.

----------
Erik Max Francis   Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt.  Coming soon:  UNIVERSE _ | _
USmail:  1070 Oakmont Dr. #1 San Jose CA 95117  ICBM:  37 20 N  121 53 W _>|<_
UUCP:  ..!apple!uuwest!max   Usenet:  max@west.darkside.com   464E4F5244   |
From: jf41+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jonathan R. Ferro)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Mazes - not necessarily linear
Date: 1 Oct 92 17:39:57 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

adam@arcadia.mc.phillip.edu.au (Adam Eberbach) writes:
> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I would go about writing a 
> maze? For instance, how was the "maze of twisty little passages, all
> alike" done?

ADV.DOC, our guide to the state of the art, sez:

#  Locations
#  ---------
#  - No illogical mazes, mixed-up directions, or un-mappable locations
#      - A maze should be a real maze, not a set of impossible-to-map rooms.
#      - Even if the adventure consists of independent sets of locations,
#        there should still be a logical layout to the map.

Mazes are dead.  Move on.

(ADV.DOC can be retrieved via anonymous ftp from archive.umich.edu in
the archive msdos/games/adventure/tess.arc)

-- Jon Ferro               Einsprachigkeit ist heilbar
Xref: sparky rec.arts.int-fiction:717 rec.games.int-fiction:272
From: dmb@lf.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Unnkulian Sequels Status (was Re: TADS)
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:51:19 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.int-fiction
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

In article <BvA1sM.5vI@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz> cctr120@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz (Brendon Wyber) writes:
>Speaking of the Unnkulian series....
>
>   How long until the new sequels are released?

Three months ago!  Yeah, that's the ticket.  Actually Unnkulia 1/2 and
Unnkulia Zero are finished, and have been for quite some time now.  I'm
still working on _The Legend Lives!_ which will be absolutely monstrous
at the rate I'm going.  (I.e., there's a lot more work to be done and
I'm long way from the end of the plot.)  Legend also takes a new
approach to things, so work on it is requring more thought and (time)
on my part.

Zero required a switch to TADS 2.0 because it got too big.  The same is
certainly true of Legend, though I've been using 2.0 to develop it all
along.

Unfortunately, there are still some problems with 2.0's memory
management (it does virtual memory in software, which is complicated
and difficult to debug), so the games are still in beta-test.

TADS 2.0 itself is only in beta-test right now and is not generally
available.  I don't know when Mike Roberts plans to officially release
it.

The end result is that instead of getting a new game every once every
six months, you'll get a ton of them all at once.  Obviously the delay
is quite frustrating to us as well...

Dave Baggett
--
dmb@ai.mit.edu           MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory                  
ADVENTIONS: interactive fiction (text adventures) for the 90's!
dmb@ai.mit.edu *** Compu$erve: 76440,2671 *** GEnie: ADVENTIONS
From: lippin@jaffna.berkeley.edu (The Apathist)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Length of Descriptions in Adventure Game
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:21:18 GMT
Reply-To: lippin@math.berkeley.edu
Organization: Authorized Service, Incorporated
NNTP-Posting-Host: jaffna.berkeley.edu

From the tinkling keys of let@insect.cis.ufl.edu (Luis E. Torres):

>The problem is, the few friends I've shown the test version to say the
>descriptions are too long. Each description is, on average, about 16 to 20
>lines on an 80-character PC screen. This is also true of most person
>descriptions.

You may be running into a problem of usability here.  There is a sense
in which the screen acts as a player's very-short-term memory.  If I
remember correctly, a standard PC screen is either 24 or 25 lines
high; by making such long descriptions, you've limited this memory to
roughly one room.

The trick of having both long and short descriptions helps out here,
but it only works where the short description contains all the
commonly useful information.

Looking back at well-designed games, I suspect that the length of a
description should be inversely proportional to the number of times
you expect a player to see it, but that the constant of
proportionality will vary with the hardware on which the game is
presented.

					--Tom Lippincott
					  lippin@math.berkeley.edu

       "There is no place I know like the land of pure imagination..."
					--W. Wonka
From: dmb@lf.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Length of Descriptions in Adventure Game
Date: 2 Oct 92 14:59:22 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

In article <JAMIE.92Oct2090047@kauri.vuw.ac.nz> jamie@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jamieson Norrish) writes:
>To go off on a slight tangent here, I'd just like to ask whether
>anyone uses an in-depth heirarchical technique for descriptions. That
>is, that on examination of a particular "object", the description
>contains more "objects" which can be examined. I've never seen this
>done to more than 2 levels, but I think in some cases it could be
>taken further. The reason I mention this is that it is one way of
>breaking down a large single body of descriptive text, without losing
>any of the detail.

This goes hand-in-hand with the "if there's a noun in a description,
the player should be able to examine that noun" principle.  I
intentionally go through every room and object description and make
sure this criterion is satsified.  It's kind of a pain but it makes
the game seem a lot more "aware."

With a traditional amount of complexity, two levels of description
seems sufficient.  In UU2 I often wrote the prose for object
descriptions sepecifically to "cut off" further e(x)amination to
prevent an endless chain of description.  In my current game I've been
going up to five levels deep; it all depends on how much you're trying
to model/explain.  (Of course, it should be noted that my current
"style" hasn't been tested on anyone yet since the game hasn't even
been locally released; perhaps it will turn out to be overwhelming.  I
doubt it, but who knows.)

Dave Baggett
--
dmb@ai.mit.edu           MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory                  
ADVENTIONS: interactive fiction (text adventures) for the 90's!
dmb@ai.mit.edu *** Compu$erve: 76440,2671 *** GEnie: ADVENTIONS
From: jamesc@cs.concordia.ca (SCHIDLOWSKY james c.)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Number of rooms (a tangent)
Date: 7 Oct 92 03:05:49 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec

In article <28773@life.ai.mit.edu> dmb@lf.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett) writes:

>least) that size average room description.  When I said you could spend
>an hour in a room just reading, I wasn't kidding.  There's just a lot
>of *stuff* and a lot to say about the stuff. 

This made me think of something... what is the least amount of rooms in
a game?  How about a game with only ONE room?  It would of course contain 
tons of stuff, and you'd have to find or build something, by rummaging
through all the stuff.

Of course, one couldn't describe the room all at once.

Maybe this isn't a good idea... people probably want to GO somewhere.

_-_
</+\:=-- James.                 /\                                          <\
^\:-(jamesc@.cs.concordia.ca)   \/  "These are the dark ages." -- NoMeansNo </
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
From: adam@arcadia.mc.phillip.edu.au (Adam Eberbach)
Subject: Mazes - not necessarily linear
Keywords: maze game adventure text
Reply-To: adam@arcadia.mc.phillip.edu.au
Organization: Dept. Maths & Comp, RMIT ( Bundoora )
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 23:48:36 GMT

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I would go about writing a 
maze? For instance, how was the "maze of twisty little passages, all
alike" done? And what about the following?
 

	A
	 |
	B----------	C
		 |
	E----------D

Where A is the entrance, E is the exit. The route through the maze is 
shown by the line. Any attempt to exit through another direction takes 
you straight back to the room you were in.
From: dmb@case.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Length of Descriptions in Adventure Game
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:27:57 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

In article <28625@life.ai.mit.edu> dmb@case.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett) writes:
>I don't think it's so simple.  You're answer assumes ...

Ah but it IS wonderful to read one's typos posted world-wide.  Damn homynyms.

:-)

Dave Baggett
--
dmb@ai.mit.edu           MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory                  
ADVENTIONS: interactive fiction (text adventures) for the 90's!
dmb@ai.mit.edu *** Compu$erve: 76440,2671 *** GEnie: ADVENTIONS
Organization: The Leader Desslok School of Diplomacy
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 15:56:41 EDT
From: Norman St. John Polevaulter <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Length of Descriptions in Adventure Game
 <greg.718057438@duke> <28817@life.ai.mit.edu>

In article <28817@life.ai.mit.edu>, dmb@lf.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett) says:

>Your bachelor pod

>   Ahhhhh.  Pod sweet pod!...

[description of room deleted]

Hmm. Much as I enjoyed the room description (and I did), and as much as
I'm looking forward to playing The Legend Lives, I have to admit that
descriptions of that size ARE a bit overwhelming. It would be inconvenient
to have to scroll through a full screen of text every time I returned to
the pod, for example.

Here's an idea: Use more compact default room descriptions --

Your Bachelor Pod

The pod is still the same old lovable hellhole it's always been. There's
almost enough room to stand up straight, if there was any place to stand
that is. Practically speaking you can't stand up because all available
floor space is taken up by vital equipment such as your bed, the matter
mover, the EV set, stacks and stacks of books and notes and your computer.
The empty word processor screen glares mockingly at you, reminding you of
that wretched Master's Thesis you have yet to write.

The EV spits out a burst of static, then begins to play "Which Way to
Tipperary" remixed for common household appliances.

HOWEVER -- the expanded description could still be made available by
typing, say, EXAMINE ROOM. That way people just cruising through the
area wouldn't be overwhelmed by all the descriptions, but can still get
all the vital information contained in the long description.

Alternatively you could do it as a VERBOSE/BRIEF situation. Print the long
description the first time you enter a room, then the short one thereafter;
once again, the long description is still available with EXAMINE ROOM. Prose
maniacs could presumably use a command to activate long descriptions all the
time. Maximum flexibility -- that's the key.

                  "Two hundredth verse, same as the first!"
[Your blood pressure just went up.]        Mark Sachs IS: mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu
DISCLAIMER: If PSU knew I had opinions they'd probably try to charge me for it.
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Length of Descriptions in Adventure Game
Date: 1 Oct 92 06:36:46 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

let@insect.cis.ufl.edu (Luis E. Torres) writes:

> The problem is, the few friends I've shown the test version to say the
> descriptions are too long. Each description is, on average, about 16 to 20
> lines on an 80-character PC screen. This is also true of most person
> descriptions.

I'd say that might be moving into the a-little-too-long range.

> So, does anybody out there have any opinions on the appropiate length of
> descriptions? I would really like to hear opinions from the people on
> r.a.i-f who have written/are writing/are planning to write(aren't we all...
> 8-) ) adventure games.

Well, I suppose it depends.  If this adventure game is a real thinker, 
then the descriptions should be pretty in-depth.  Obviously, the 
essential information for solving the puzzles and succeeding at the game 
need to be there . . . if this is basically all you have, keep it in 
there (and let me see this game if it's that deep!).  If most of it is 
superfluous information that may add a little atmosphere to the game but 
probably won't add any better understanding to the player, then you might 
want to cut some of it short.  (I mean, if people are complaining . . .)  
I personally don't have any problem with long descriptions, as long as 
they're _intelligent_ and _well-written_ -- but that's just me.  (I hate 
more than anything insufficient descriptions, and lack of descriptions 
"You see nothing special" for things which should _definitely_ catch the 
eye, like a golden chalice, instead of being some token treasure.)

Anyhow, I also have AGT, so I'd be able to help you betatest the 
adventure if you're looking for helpers . . .

----------
Erik Max Francis   Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt.  Coming soon:  UNIVERSE _ | _
USmail:  1070 Oakmont Dr. #1 San Jose CA 95117  ICBM:  37 20 N  121 53 W _>|<_
UUCP:  ..!apple!uuwest!max   Usenet:  max@west.darkside.com   464E4F5244   |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
From: baker-j@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (john t baker)
Subject: Re: TADS
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:45:10 GMT


This may not be an entirely appropriate place to ask this, but--

Has anyone else experienced any frustration trying to get the TADS.ZIP
file from archive.umich.edu?  This is my first time using FTP, so possibly
I'm doing something wrong.  I thought that this was a public archive, but
the system keeps insisting on a username and a password, and then tells
me that my login is incorrect.

Email or post (as you feel appropriate) if you can help.
--
John Baker
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
From: cctr120@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz (Brendon Wyber)
Subject: Re: TADS
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 07:21:58 GMT

Speaking of the Unnkulian series....

   How long until the new sequels are released?

Brendon Wyber  CSC, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
               b.wyber@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker)
Subject: Re: Mazes - not necessarily linear
Organization: Institute for Theoretical Physics, Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 15:39:12 GMT

>>>>> On Wed, 30 Sep 92 23:48:36 GMT, adam@arcadia.mc.phillip.edu.au (Adam Eberbach) said:

ae> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I would go about writing a 
ae> maze? For instance, how was the "maze of twisty little passages, all
ae> alike" done? And what about the following?

ae> 	A
ae> 	 |
ae> 	B----------	C
ae> 		 |
ae> 	E----------D

ae> Where A is the entrance, E is the exit. The route through the maze is 
ae> shown by the line. Any attempt to exit through another direction takes 
ae> you straight back to the room you were in.

First of all, IMHO these kind of mazes are a bit outdated. They were
fun in (Colossal Cave) adventure, but we've seen enough of them by
now.

A linear system like you propose (which was eg. in Sphinx adventure)
is even more boring. If you insist on such a maze, make a table with
all the rooms representing the rows and columns. An entry in the table
means you can get from the room to which the row corresponds to the
one to which the column corresponds by using the direction (N,S, etc.)
which is in the table. Now randomly start writing directions in the
table, making sure that the lot is connected.

There better ways to do it, but if you want something original you'll
have to think of it yourself.

Bas de Bakker.

twisty all in of are passages little maze You different a turny.