HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Work in Progress
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 06:51:16 GMT

This week I learned from my agent that I haven't just sold Redmagic, but also
the proposed third book of the trilogy, Blackmagic. This is good news, in a
way, but not entirely. The contract calls, in effect, for paying half the
advance of both books on signing the contract I've just received. That's not
a huge sum, but it's certainly welcome. When I submit Redmagic (by Nov. 1
93), I get the second half of my advance for it--in other words, half what
I'll be receiving in a few weeks. Then I have another year to complete
Blackmagic, and when it's finished I'll get the second half of my advance for
*that* book...when it will seem like not a heck of a lot for 120,000 words
and months of work.

However, mass-market writers are generally best off with as much money up
front as possible. Even in today's depressed economy, inflation eats into
whatever you're going to be paid in future. Payment on acceptance is always
preferable to payment on (or after publication).

Since the advance is not huge (see ref. to depressed economy), I have that
much more incentive to write both books as fast as possible and to go on to
other projects. That's just what I intend to do. So after almost two months
of slow work on Redmagic, this weekend I've been blasting away and done about
3000 words--most of it today. This not only feels good, it gives me a sense
of momentum. As I tell my students, the first hundred pages are the hardest.
After that, you get your second wind and just slog along until you hit page
550 or thereabouts and send the ms. in.

I'm also encouraged by the impending reprinting of Lifter by a small Canadian
house, and by that publisher's interest in doing an anthology of my columns
and articles. And my agent tells me word is pending on some other publisher's
decision about yet another novel I've been hoping to complete. Nice to have
lots of irons in the fire...

--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Graduate School
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:16:57 GMT

Larry Westdahl asks some serious questions about applying to graduate writing
programs. I can't answer them, but I have a question in return:

Why go to grad school for training as a writer?

The only benefit of taking fiction-writing courses (including my own) is to
get some tips on craft (like how wide the margins should be) AND a source of
external pressure that keeps the novice grinding away. Once the writer gains
enough self-confidence to be internally motived (an advance is a good
source), the writing process becomes self-sustaining because the writer has
to be self-sustaining.

Take this, however, as admittedly philistine advice. The university writing
programs that I'm aware of tend to be run by people with not much literary
ability...or else they're moonlighting because their good writing doesn't
earn enough to sustain them.

Academe has sheltered a lot of good writers (not to mention the cheerful
hacks like me). But it does tend to academicize those writers, imposing a set
of values that may or may not suit a given writer. Literature as an art would
do better if it could draw on writers from wildly diverse backgrounds with
wildly divergent agendas.

--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca
From: larryw@lclark.edu (Larry Westdahl)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: speech interruption
Date: 23 Nov 92 00:17:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1992Nov23.001729.23097
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <Nov22.230654.45607@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> randal@pylon.physics.colostate.edu (randal rheinheimer) writes:
>I've come across a problem in my all-too-amateurish writing and am asking those  
>more experienced (or just more imaginative) for help.  There is a certain flow  
>I wish to maintain in putting a thought or a description inside a spoken  
>sentence, but no particular construction seems right to me.  Here is an example  
>of the sort of thing I'm working with:
>
>She said, "I'm posting you about my problem--" Her hands became clumsy on the  
>keyboard. "--and I hope you're able to help me."
>
>That's the best construction I had come up with, so I knew that it was past  
>time to get help; it's just not right to put a complete sentence in the middle  
>of the spoken phrase.  Possibly the dashes could be placed outside the  
>quotation marks:
>
> . . problem," --her hands became clumsy on the keyboard-- "and . . .
>
>A large part of the problem is that the flow, the feel of the passage is  
>destroyed if I put the description somewhere more convenient.  Any  
>ideas--parentheses, maybe?
>Thanks for your help.  Please post rather than mailing--my machine refuses to  
>acknowledge existence beyond itself just now.
>Rand


There are two schools of thought here.  One, which I heard from an Iowa
graduate, is that if it works, do it.  In other words, just because it
doesn't _seem_ right, doesn't mean you can't experiment.  If that's your
voice, give it a try.  If your readers find that it doesn't work in the
context of the story, they will tell you.

The other school is that this construction is just plain wrong, and that
you might as well say: "I'm posting you about this problem." Her hands
became clumsy on the keyboard.  "I hope you're able to help me."  Yes, I
know, this defeats the whole purpose, but you may not have a choice.  You 
could always try stream of consciousness if it fit in to your story.  In 
that case, you could do almost anything.

- Lawrence

-- 

_____
larryw@lclark.edu | *L.Westdahl is a caring nurturer, a member of several
writer, musician  | twelve step programs, but not a licensed therapist.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: antipope@rachel.ibmpcug.co.uk (charless@scol.sco.com)
Subject: Re: SGML--what is it?
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:21:25 GMT

twriter1@pencom.com writes:
> I am debating whether or not I should fork over almost $1000
> to learn about SGML (a reputable 2 or 3 day long course).  Is it
> worth it?  Is SGML the wave of the future as I have heard?
> What does it stand for?

SGML is short for Standard Generalized Markup Language.
It is an ISO-validated standard for text markup based on
ASCII files, and supports semantic content markup as well as
the more common explicit formatting commands we're all used
to.

An SGML document is always based upon a DTD, or Document Type
Definition (equivalent to a style sheet). Basically, the DTD
defines a set of types for a document's elements in a portable
format. Using an SGML editor like SoftQuad author/editor (or
FrameMaker, which I believe can import/export SGML documents into
GML) you create a document using the style elements defined in
the DTD. THe combination of document and DTD can then be used on
any other SGML-compliant system to produce the same output. 
Moreover, SGML has a variety of other uses connected with 
information retrieval.

In addition to the core ISO standard, there are working groups
currently developing extra standards; HyTime, a multimedia
extension of SGML, and DSSSL, a device-independant output
system.

SGML is still a minority persuit, but it is set to explode
in the technical publications field over the next two to
five years. For example, it is highly likely that the next
documentation releases for UNIX (from both the main
development sources, USL and OSF) will be delivered in SGML
instead of troff format. Once this happens, a huge chunk of
the Open Systems market will have to switch to SGML.

To quote one expert on the field: ``SGML is to typesetting
as UNIX is to open systems computing.''

Hope that helps ...

-- 
Antipope -- HE gives you Bull, I give you the Straight ... er ....
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:28:18 GMT
Organization: Dobonia
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com


In article <1992Nov19.192841.20507@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com>, jeff@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Jeffrey S. Freedman) writes:
|In article <BxtDF2.yK@unx.sas.com> sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden) writes:
|>but the ability to write does not correlate with the ability to get
|>published.  There may be a lower cutoff, a level of quality below which
|>you cannot hope to be published, but if so it is very low indeed.
|
|Ah, there's hope for me yet!
|
|But then, what does it take to get published?  Must one have a relative who is
|an editor?  Or a body like Madonna's?

There's all kinds of ways to increase your likelihood of getting
published.  Having a relative who's an editor would certainly help.
Having a body like Madonna's wouldn't unless you were famous for it,
or were offering it to the editor in question, which might be difficult
if you're in Oregon and he's in New York.  (Editors know better than
most that photos can lie.)  There was a guy in New Orleans who thought
he'd follow John Kennedy Toole's example (Toole killed himself) and faked
a suicide attempt when his book was rejected.  He got some air play,
but I don't think he got published.

Sometimes writers hit on a hot topic, or a hot setting.  Sometimes they
attend the right workshops and make the right connections.  Mostly, I
think, they just plain luck out.  Submit your manuscript to enough
editors with dogged enough determination and eventually somebody,
somewhere, may decide to acquire it.  The process is apparently easier
after that.  For one thing, book contracts usually contain a clause
giving the publisher first refusal on your next book, which means that
it will at least get read by them promptly.

|I read a book on writing in which the author stated that he received 50
|rejections before he had his first book published, and that this was an average
|number.  Yet, if each submission took a month, and if there were no
|simultaneous submissions, it would have taken him over four years before that
|acceptance came.  Am I missing something here?

Nope, I don't think you are.  Of course, there ARE simultaneous
submissions.  It's a real good idea to be doing something else while
you're trying to get published.  Write another novel or two, and, of
course, don't give up your day job.

-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Tuesday, 17 Nov 1992 12:23:22 MST
From: Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject:    Intersting point?


    I re-read a posting from Fred about the characters in his novel
and it got me to thinking.  I wondered about the depth of his antagonist
and had a couple of questions someone out there might want to answer.

1.)  If an antagonist is supposed to be the opposite of the protagonist,
     then if the protagonist was a jerk wouldn't the antagonist be more
     reasonable?

     -  This part I don't understand.  Is it necessary to have a protagonist
        in the story who is the reflection of good?

     -  Can't a protagonist be a jerk sometimes or should the character
        be above reproach?

2.)  Can an antagonist be anything other then the conflict in the story?

     - Or can the antagonist be in the process of change and therefore,
       expected to become something different?


I guess where I am confused is that if Fred was writing a story about
two people.  One (protagonist) person perceives a problem and the other
(antagonist) is the problem.  Who would the central character be in the
story?  I can understand if a story is based around a serial killer as
the central character, then the developing story line would have to do
with some conflict within the antagonist's personna?  The protagonist
would fall into a supporting role of (?) casual observer or ??

The idea is interesting in itself, but I wonder how it would work.  That
is, taking the three deminisional personna of a serial killer and dealing
with any aspect of humanity.  I'm trying to imagine how a serial killer
could evolve into a nice person, with doubts and fears, and troubled by
what they do.  The idea, as I've said, is interesting.  If the antagonist
evolves into a different character, then wouldn't the protagonist also
change?

The reason I asked this was because I've recently did some background on
serial killers and wondered how they evolved -- after the fact isn't as
interesting as childhood development.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: pww@bnr.ca (Peter Whittaker)
Subject: Re: A gender neutral pronoun, was Fundamentalist Nightmare
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:14:56 GMT

In article <BxIAFI.2oA@unx.sas.com> sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden) writes:
>In article <BxI7u1.LwE@unx.sas.com>, saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski) writes:
>|Finally, the execrable solution of overusing the passive voice can be
>|applied. This way, avoiding mentioning a subject altogether can be
>|achieved. Most will agree that this is the way some of the worst writing
>|is performed.
>
>"It will be agreed by most. . . ."

Where are the smileys?

pww

(The readership hashed passive vs active voice to death not too long
ago.)

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: lrabe@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee A Rabe)
Subject: Cliches
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:52:50 GMT


Just a simple question.

Do you feel a setup can be "too cliched" if the characters and plot are 
original?
I.e. how the characters are brought together....

Thanks

Lee Ann
From: nicolas@stam.nl (Nico Veenkamp)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: SGML--what is it?
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:12:34 GMT
Organization: Stam Tijdschriften bv, Rijswijk, The Netherlands

twriter1@pencom.com writes:

> I am debating whether or not I should fork over almost $1000
> to learn about SGML (a reputable 2 or 3 day long course).  Is it
> worth it?  Is SGML the wave of the future as I have heard?
> What does it stand for?


SGML S General/Generic Markup Language. This is as close that I can come 
from memory. Basically it is a set of standard instructions in an text 
that can be interpreted by any other textprocessing or layouting program 
Also used for structuring text in databases or on CD-ROM.
This is what I can remember from a course I took two years ago. Haven't 
done anything with it since so memory is a bit hazy.

There was a BYTE article about it this year or 1991, I can find out for 
you if you really want to know.

SGML is something that has bveen talked about a lot, especially within 
the publishing world. Depending on the support it will get from other 
software packages and the interest of the publishers it might take off. 
Views are still divided on this. 


      *================================================================*
      |  Nico Veenkamp	        | You write, we publish                |
      |  Stam Tijdschriften bv  | -------------------------------------|
      |  P.O. Box 235           | Internet : nicolas@stam.nl           |
      |  2280 AE  Rijswijk      | FidoNet  : 2:281/1.7                 |
      |  The Netherlands        | BIX      : nicolas                   |
      *================================================================*
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible)
Subject: Re: Graduate School
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:12:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.210338.2436@reed.edu> ehudon@reed.edu (Elizabeth Hudon) writes:
>I would suggest that anyone interested in graduate writing programs
>should look into the Iowa writer's program at the big state university
>there.
>

	There are three state universities here, and all pretty
good schools (he said immodestly).  The Writer's Program is at the University 
of Iowa in Iowa City which is in the Eastern part of the state on I-80.  Iowa
City is a nice town with much nicer facilities than you would expect in a city
of its size (around 50,000 and I think that includes the students) due to the 
University and the Med school.


	BTW, don't let anyone know I told you this. ;-)  There is 
*considerable* intra-state rivalry and not just in the apparent infinity of 
athletic team sports.
	I suppose that fact requires me to add that ISU does have an English
Department (and a Journalism Department) and they do teach writing.  Several of 
the faculty members are published (Jane Smiley who had a successful novel 
recently is in the Department), and there is a writing award in the name of 
Pearl Hogrefe (apologies; I'm uncertain of how her name is spelled) who taught 
Fiction here in years past.  Sorry I don't know more, but I work for the Comp 
Center not the English Department.

Regards,
tony
From: schwarz-marc@cs.yale.edu (Marc Schwarz)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Question on parenthetical style
Date: 17 Nov 1992 19:17:05 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: giraffe.zoo.cs.yale.edu

What is the preferred style for parenthetical expressions? 

I have seen: 

   1. Mary had a little lamb (and the doctor died of shock).

   2. Mary had a little lamb (The doctor died of shock.).

   3. Mary had a little lamb. (The doctor died of shock.)

This is actually two questions:  Should parentheticals 
be dependent or independent clauses?  In addition, should
independent parentheticals be embedded within another
independent clause? (This presumes paretheticals should,
in most cases, be independent clauses.) In practice, I tend
to use the first example, the notion being that an independent
clause can stand on its own (no matter how tangential it is).

Marc.
-=-
schwarz@cs.yale.edu
AKA schwarz@spunky.cs.nyu.edu
From: susanm@pepper.ncd.com (Susan Mitchell)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: spec outlines
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:37:46 GMT
Organization: Network Computing Devices, Mt. View, CA, USA

To all you tech writers out there, I am facing a new writing task.
I have been assigned to collaborate with engineers in producing an
engineering specification. This document could set the trend for
formats of future specification documents. My question is--are you
aware of a basic outline that most specifications generally follow?
I'd be interested in outlines for both hardware and software specs.

I'd appreciate direct e-mail replies. Thank you.

Susan Mitchell
susanm@ncd.com
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 19:28:11 GMT

In article <lgiesiINN46t@news.bbn.com>, levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin) wrote:

>  we* consider this sort of
> posting both interesting and relevant.
> 
> 
> *Speaking strictly for myself and me, of course.

You speak for I, too :-)

Maureen (aka Jane)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: seaverw@columbia.dsu.edu (W. A. Seaver)
Subject: Re: SGML--what is it?
Organization: Dakota State University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 04:20:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.173423.4564@pencom.com> twriter1@pencom.com writes:

>I am debating whether or not I should fork over almost $1000
>to learn about SGML (a reputable 2 or 3 day long course).  Is it
>worth it?  Is SGML the wave of the future as I have heard?
>What does it stand for?

1. What is SGML?

2. Perhaps it would be best to find out at least what it stands for before 
shelling out a grand.

--Alan
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Subject: Re: Fiction Advice 12: Show & Tell
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:09:12 GMT
Organization: Dobonia


In article <1e5gu9INNjfs@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
|
|
|In a previous article, sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden) says:
|
|>But he does not have a redeeming "soft" side, where we see that he is
|>capable of gentleness and affection, because he is not capable of
|>gentleness and affection.  He is severely damaged goods in that regard,
|>and this is in fact one of the character traits I wanted to explore in
|>writing the book.
|
|That's very interesting, and piques my curiosity.  What about _receiving_
|affection or kindness?  Is he capable of that?  How does he react to
|kindness from others?

(This discussion seems to start sail perilously close the wind as far as
the group's charter goes.  Next, you'll have me posting the entire text
of REMOTE CONTROL. :)

Funny you should ask.  The two people who show Asher (the protagonist)
real kindness and affection are two pivotal characters in the book--
one is an old acquaintance who tries to get Asher to stop taking drugs
(for a while) and take a sober look at the events that are frightening
him, and the other is the psychiatrist who treats him after his arrest.
Asher doesn't intellectually understand the actions of either character,
but both cause him to undergo extreme emotional catharses.

-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552)
Subject: Re: speech interruption
Organization: just me
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 18:24:47 GMT
Followup-To: misc.writing

In article <Nov22.230654.45607@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> randal@pylon.physics.colostate.edu (randal rheinheimer) writes:
>I've come across a problem in my all-too-amateurish writing and am asking those  
>more experienced (or just more imaginative) for help.  There is a certain flow  
>I wish to maintain in putting a thought or a description inside a spoken  
>sentence, but no particular construction seems right to me.  Here is an example  
>of the sort of thing I'm working with:
>
>She said, "I'm posting you about my problem--" Her hands became clumsy on the  
>keyboard. "--and I hope you're able to help me."
>
>That's the best construction I had come up with, so I knew that it was past  
>time to get help; it's just not right to put a complete sentence in the middle  
>of the spoken phrase.  Possibly the dashes could be placed outside the  
>quotation marks:
>
> . . problem," --her hands became clumsy on the keyboard-- "and . . .
>
>A large part of the problem is that the flow, the feel of the passage is  
>destroyed if I put the description somewhere more convenient.  Any  
>ideas--parentheses, maybe?

What about just interposing a phrase, more like an image, to give the reader
the effect of a glance:

     She said, "I'm posting you about my problem--" (clumsy hands fumbled the
keys) "--and I hope you're able to help me".

Hmmm...doesn't look as good on the screen as I had hoped.  Maybe use your
first version, with a few small changes:

     She said, "I'm posting you about this problem" - her hands became clumsy
on the keyboard - "and I hope you're able to help me".  

This is a bit better at creating the speech embedded in a sentence feeling,
rather than the more awkward interposed phrase.  Opinions?

	David Pipes
Newsgroups: misc.writing