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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:02:24 -0500
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Meals in Literature

Twas Babette's Feast, and I bet I'm probably the tenth person or so to
post that info by now.  Oh well . . .

michael mcdonald
From: mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU ((MM))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: hypertext
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:04:10 GMT
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Posted-Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 17:04:10 EST
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

In its current state, hypertext has nothing to do with downloading and
printing. Books on disk is not hypertext. You're right about the resolution
of characters on a screen being an impediment (if that's what you meant),
but that won't be for long. Hypertext provides opportunities to read a book
that was written on a hypertext program, giving the reader choices in how
the book will be read, what paths followed, etc. And there is also the
potential for readers to add to the hypertext. As I mentioned in an earlier
post, there is a chance to add more extensive "marginalia," which could
be commented upon, and again by successive readers. Hypertext as such has
no relation to simply reading things on a computer that could be read as
books. Michael McColl
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 08:08:48 -0800
From:         djl@MAILHOST.PP.PDX.EDU
Subject:      Quote of the Day
Comments: To: WRITERS@NDSUVM1.BITNET

(One of the Laws We Need:)  The post office would start charging a nickle for
a stamp for a personal letter and five dollars for a stamp on any piece of mail
that contained advertising the recipient didn't want.  -- Andy Rooney
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 15:58:00 EST
From:         Elise <EZAPPAS@DREW.BITNET>
Subject:      Women's Autobiography

                                        Date:     04-Nov-1992 03:52pm EST
                                        From:     Zappas, Elise
                                                  EZAPPAS
                                        Dept:     LIB
                                        Tel No:   (201)-408-3667

TO:  Remote INTERNET Address              ( _IN%LITERARY@UCF1VM.BITNET )


Subject: Women's Autobiography


I took a course here in Drew's Graduate program in English Lit called
"Women's Autobiography: An Ethnic Perspective".  Three of the many books
we read would be appropriate for the class you mentioned.  They are:

    The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan
    Lucy by Jamaica Kincaid
    Lost in Translation by Eva Hoffmann

They're all coming of age stories by ethnic women spending their formative
years in the U.S.

Elise T. Zappas
EZAPPAS@DREW.DREW.EDU
EZAPPAS@DREW.BITNET
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:42:06 -0500
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Italo Calvino

David, I strongly recommend *If on a winter's night a traveler* and *Cosmicomics
   --the first story in *Cosmicomics* may be the most intriguing short story I'v
   e
ever read (right up there with Joyce's "The Sisters," anyway), and the first
book cited here is a great deal of maddening fun, methinks.

michael mcdonald
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:30:06 -0500
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: hypertext

There's an ad for a hypertext *In Memoriam* in the latest Lingua Franca;
the cost is about $50, and I'm bummed that it's only available for Macs.
This should prove to be a particularly fascinating text for hypertext
study, given its rather astounding implication in Darwinian and other
Victorian discourses concerning human relationships with nature, and with
the nature *in* us.

michael mcdonald (not wanting to be called just mcdonald, hard-boiled
detective though I am . . .)
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:09:00 EST
From:         Mia T <MKISSIL@DREW.BITNET>
Subject:      Canadian Authors - A Summary

                                        Date:     10-Nov-1992 08:13pm EST
                                        From:     Kissil, Mia T
                                                  MKISSIL
                                        Dept:
                                        Tel No:   (201)-408-8209

TO:  Remote INTERNET Address              ( _IN%LITERARY@UCF1VM.BITNET )
TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( _in%WMST-L@UMDD.BITNET )


Subject: Canadian Authors - A Summary

To all on both lists who responded to my query about Canadian authors last
week, many, many thanks.  I finally found two professors who are willing
to do a tutorial with me on Modern Canadian Fiction.  Most of the people
claimed they didn't know anything about it, so therefore didn't want to
take the time to learn! (I'm not bitter, really...)

Here's a list of the suggestions people sent, since a few of you asked to
see what I came up with.  I don't have the time or the knowledge to break
it up into esoteric categories, so it's going to have to be alphabetical.

Jeanette Armstrong, _Slash_
Margaret Atwood, _Cat's Eye_
Mary Claire Blais, _Mad Shadows_ and _Season in the Life of Emmanuel_
Maria Campbell, _Halfbreed_ and _The Book of Jessica_ (with Linda
        Griffiths)
Emily Carr, short stories
Marian Engel, _Bear_
Timothy Findley, _Not Wanted on the Voyage_, _Famous Last Words_, _The
        Wars_, _The Butterfly Plague__
Isabel Huggan, _The Elizabeth Tales_
Basi Johnston, _Indian School Days_
Thomas King
W.P. Kinsella, short stories
Joy Kogawa, _Obasan
Margaret Laurence, _The Olden Days Coat_, _The Diviners_, The Stone Angel_
Stephen Leacock, _Sunshine Sketches of a Little Town_
Sky Lee, _The Disappearing Moon Cafe_
Robert MacNeil (of MacNeil/Lehrer Report Fame!), _Burden of Desire_
Lee Maracle, short stories and novels
Alice Munro, short stories and _Lives of Women and Girls_
Michael Ondaatje, _Coming Through Slaughter_, _In the Skin of a Lion_
Mordechi Richler, _Son of a Smaller Hero_, _Joshua Then and Now_,
        _Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz_
Jane Rule, _The Memory Board_
Ruby Slipperjack, _Honour the Sun_, _Silent Words_
Guy Vanderhaugh (sp?), short stories
Aritha Van Herk, _Tent Peg_, _No Fixed Address_
Ethel Wilson, _Swamp Angel_

Also, the two anthologies edited by Rosemary Sullivan, _Stories by
Canadian Women_ and _More Stories by Canadian Women_ were recommended.

Once again, thanks to all who responded!

Mia Tatiana Kissil
MKISSIL@DREW.BITNET
MKISSIL@DREW.DREW.EDU
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:04:40 EST
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
              3 Nov 1992 15:36:10 -0800 from <djl@MAILHOST.PP.PD X.EDU>

On Tue, 3 Nov 1992 15:36:10 -0800 <djl@MAILHOST.PP.PDX.EDU> said:
>Ken said:
>
>>And I will have to point out that I did not say that I carried on an argument
>>within someone else's book.  I make marginalia only in books that I own.
>
>And I did not say it was a book owned by someone else.  I certainly meant
>a book with someone else's name on the cover.

Then you were ambiguous.

>>I never claimed that they were.  Nor do I insist that they be.  The argument
>>that I should be the intellectual equal of someone before any of my particular
>>opinions is worthwhile is fallacious.
>
>Not worthwhile, only worth preserving for other readers to have to deal with
>them.  I would suggest if your remarks and arguments are not necessarily
>worthy to be printed on the same paper as the arguments in the book, then why
>should they be inked in by hand?

Simple.  Economics.

>>The argument that some publisher should
>>judge whether my arguments are worthy, equally so.
>
>Perhaps.  But is your opinion about what you have to say about what some
>publisher once thought worth printing worthy of being preserved within the
>same covers to amuse and annoy other readers who didn't see your name on
>the cover?

This presumes that there *will* be other readers.  Even if so, the answer is
quite clearly "yes," else I wouldn't have written anything in the first place.
My opinion may be mistaken, but I should hardly let that stop me.

>You have arguments with and reactions to an author's writing.  Fine.  Why
>not write them on your own sheets of paper, in your own journal?

Cumbersome and unappealing to me.  But see my response on hypertext for an
acceptable alternative.

>If you write
>only in books you own, then the only person who benefits from your writing
>in the margins is you. . . .

Which is who I intend to benefit.
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 13:49:00 EST
From:         Elise <EZAPPAS@DREW.BITNET>
Subject:      Italo Calvino

                                        Date:     10-Nov-1992 01:46pm EST
                                        From:     Zappas, Elise
                                                  EZAPPAS
                                        Dept:     LIB
                                        Tel No:   (201)-408-3667

TO:  Remote INTERNET Address              ( _IN%LITERARY@UCF1VM.BITNET )


Subject: Italo Calvino

David,

See:  Postmodern Italian Fiction: the crisis of reason in Calvino, Eco,
         Sciascia, Malerba, by JoAnn Cannon.  Published by Fairleigh
         Dickinson Univ. Press and Associated University Presses, c1989.

Elise
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 16:27:25 -0500
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Derrida

I didn't have the chance to respond to everyone who commented on Derrida,
but was impressed with the fact that several folks said that they admired
Derrida as a writer *despite* the fact that they had been prejudiced against
him before reading his work.  The thing that alarms me is that such a
prejudicial mechanism would be so firmly in place.  When I began studying
Derrida in '85, most professors at my school (U of Oregon) seemed to
regard him as a minor annoyance rather than as a threat to Western civ.
I was also lucky to study with several very able profs who were
sympathetic to his work.  If anyone is interested in relating precisely how
they were prejudiced against Derrida before actually reading him, I would
be very interested in hearing about it.

m mcdonald
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 00:15:00 EST
From:         "(Robert F. O'Connor)" <ocoreng@FAC.ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Derrida
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

I have trouble with Derrida (who doesn't ?) but as I am (weeps) monolingual
(as far as modern languages go) I never worried about the translation problem,
I assumed, possibly naively, that the best people available would do the job, \
ideally in consultation with the author.
Ha!
Then I read Lyotard's 'Foreword' to Benjamin's 'Lyotard Reader'.  Now I don't
know who to trust. I can't even believe my own writing anymore.
I am leaving Derrida alone now, and resisting the temptation to hide in a dark
room.  One day soon - like, when I have to actually write my thesis - I may be
brave enough to 'read' what he 'wrote', and not worry about Lyotard and
allography.
Basically, I think the simplest answer is to stick to ONE theoretician at a
time.
ROC
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 08:55:53 CST
From:         steve harris <SPAM@TAMVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Marginalia
              5 Nov 1992 15:31:49 EST from <ocoreng@FAC.ANU.EDU.AU>

In fact, many a library in Spain was sacked after the Moslems were booted
out.  Luckily a few things survived.
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:43:48 EST
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Italo Calvino

>David, I strongly recommend *If on a winter's night a traveler*
>and *Cosmicomic* --the first story in *Cosmicomics* may be the
>most intriguing short story I've ever read (right up there with
>Joyce's "The Sisters," anyway), and the first book cited here is
>a great deal of maddening fun, methinks.
>michael mcdonald

  Well, I have to respectfully disagree with michael mcdonald,
though this will probably come as no surprise.  I've read a bit
of Italo Calvino, and had very mixed opinions.  *First Loves*
was good, but *Cosmicomics* was, in my not very humble at all
opinion, atrocious.  (I also didn't care much for *Under the
Jaguar Sun*.)

  Italo Calvino reminds me, actually, quite a lot of two other
authors - Borges and Stanislaw Lem.  _Cosmicomics_ read like a
hackwork Lem.  I guess the idea was to take some notions out of
cosmology and biology and build little stories around them.  But
I think this was, for Calvino, a terrible mistake.  Maybe it is
only my own prejudice as a scientist, but I found his grasp of
the notions he developed into stories to be poor, I found his
development of those notions to be trite, and I found the writing
to be rather kitschy.  It reminded me of a high school student's
first attempt at writing stories - the humor, the story ideas, and
writing seemed so underdeveloped.
  On the other hand, a know a couple of writers here in Providence
(he writes poetry, she writes fiction, and they both teach it) who
think Calvino is one of the most remarkable writers they have ever
encountered.  (She teaches Cosmicomics, of all things, in her fiction
class.)
  Just goes to show what I know.  Maybe I'll stop by the library
and get the book again, if you are interested in discussing this
in detail.  I'm willing to be convinced, but my reaction on reading
that book was pretty strongly negative.
  (I have been told by others as well that *If on a Winter's Night...*
is one of his best, but haven't picked it up to read yet.)

                                   -Tim
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 10:51:53 -0600
From:         MFIALA@UMKCVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      RE:HEROINES
Comments: To: Literary@ucf1vm.bitnet

I agree that the term "heroine" does not convey nearly the same message
as the term "hero", but while "protagonist" is gender-neutral, I don't
really see it as a satisfactory substitute for either term.  Protagonist
is, to me, a purely literary term, whereas "hero" and "heroine" imply some
sort of moral construct.  Having said this, I must admit that I have no
better suggestion for a term to describe the female hero and would love
to hear other ideas on the subject.

I am currently working on a project involving the fiction of Doris
Lessing and desperately need a term other than "female hero"!

MF
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:49:50 EST
From:         "(Paul G. Beidler)" <pgb3@LEHIGH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: skyn of houndfyssh
Comments: To: "Discussions about Literature" <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

>On Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:18:59 EST Paul G. Beidler said:
>>What do I mean by this?  Only that to pretend that there is any virtue in
>>trying to enjoy something without possessing it and mutilating it, as Januarie
>>does by having the priest bless his nuptual bed, seems empty and false at
>>best--with regards to books or women or anything else.
>>
>I assure you that mutilating my new sailboat would not only compromise my
>enjoyment of it, but would quite possibly prove fatal.
>

So might impregnating your wife.  My point was only that it is a question of
degree.

                                                Paul
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 14:44:18 -0500
From:         STU_CDHERBER@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The Sensual Book

I've been following the bibliosensual discussion with interest, since I, too,
am a fan of well-preserved, hardback books.  I found David's comment on the
Mylar covers particularly interesting, because I generally can't stand paper
covers at all.  I usually remove them to enjoy the cloth cover underneath,
but I then I feel guilty at having deprived the book of its original cover.
As a result, I have a cardboard box in the closet with all of the covers that
I've removed but can't bring myself to discard.     -Deming
From: ocoreng@FAC.ANU.EDU.AU ((Robert F. O'Connor))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Re: Bleak House
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:18:17 GMT
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Barth is someone I have never gotten around to, I must admit - dyed-in-the-wool
Shakespearean that I am.  I believ the tutor who started this would definitely
have advocated _anything_ af his, however.
ROC
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:45:52 -0500
From:         STU_CDHERBER@VAX1.ACS.JMU.EDU
Subject:      literary meals
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

If those descriptions of literary meals make some people hungry (for food),
how about the, ah, erotically-charged repast in Keats' "Eve of St. Agnes?"

-Deming
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 10:05:47 PST
From:         CHELLEY@HUP.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Autobiography
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

I spoke with a friend of mine last night who teaches English at a
Canadian university. He is planning to teach a class on autobiography
next year and would like to include material from women writers. He
is particularly interested in autobiographical views of coming of
age, identity formation, and maturation. Does anyone have
suggestions? He has tentatively planned using Maxine Hong Kingston's
"China Men" and needs to expand his resources.

Thank you
Chelley@hup.ucla.edu
From: saspdm@MVS.SAS.COM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Re: skyn of houndfyssh
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:40:00 GMT
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              <LITERARY%UCF1VM.CC.UCF.EDU@unx.sas.com>

> I assure you that mutilating my new sailboat would not only compromise my
> enjoyment of it, but would quite possibly prove fatal.

did you ever settle on a name?  is this the one that
was potentially "Gravity's"?
From: YORK@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA (IAN YORK)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: cheese and bread
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:20:32 GMT
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>Ever since I was a kid and read _Heidi_ I have loved to eat plain cheese on a
>piece of bread. Heidi's grandfather got me started.

        Can't resist noting that the Toronto band _The Shuffle Demons_ have
a song called "Cheese and Bread", which expresses their agreement with your
viewpoint.
        Ian
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:19:28 EST
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Oh, yes, Galileo
              3 Nov 1992 16:12:08 -0800 from <djl@MAILHOST.PP.PD X.EDU>

On Tue, 3 Nov 1992 16:12:08 -0800 <djl@MAILHOST.PP.PDX.EDU> said:
>Nobody else has piped up, Melanie, so for your information, the Vatican give
>an official thumbs up on Galileo Galilei last week, after having censured him,
>or whatever it was -- I don't keep up on the technical terminology -- or making
>him recant his theories, several centuries ago.  (The year 1537 sticks in my
>mind.)  This was the famous occasion on which he was brought before a church
>court and made to take back the scientific finding of his published work that
>the earth was not the center of the universe because it appeared to revolve
>around the sun.  Whether apocryphal or not, the story goes that after the
>official, oral recantation, Galileo said under his breath, "Nevertheless, it
>DOES move."
>
>At least as amusing as how long it took the church to get around to this little
>error, is how long it took to resolve it.  John Paul II, bless his little
>heart, appointed the commission on the issue in 1979.  I want to know what took
>them 13 years to figure out before they came to last week's decision.

Galileo was censured (tasked, condemned, whatever) for defying the authority
of the Church, not *directly* for saying the earth moves around the sun; had
the Church never taken a stance on the matter, he would not have been brought
to book.  With this in mind, I would be interested to see the Vatican's
reasoning *now*.
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 07:54:02 EST
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: skyn of houndfyssh

On Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:49:50 EST Paul G. Beidler said:
>>On Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:18:59 EST Paul G. Beidler said:
>>>What do I mean by this?  Only that to pretend that there is any virtue in
>>>trying to enjoy something without possessing it and mutilating it, as
>Januarie
>>>does by having the priest bless his nuptual bed, seems empty and false at
>>>best--with regards to books or women or anything else.
>>>
>>I assure you that mutilating my new sailboat would not only compromise my
>>enjoyment of it, but would quite possibly prove fatal.
>>
>
>So might impregnating your wife.  My point was only that it is a question of
>degree.
>
If so, you didn't make it very well.  "No virtue" is clearly more than a
"question of degree."
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Posted-Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 15:42:51 EST
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:42:51 EST
From:         "(MM)" <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      heroines
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.bitnet

mcdonald: I wasn't suggesting that she could be called a hero or heroine,
just remembering the story.

But I am still wondering why hero, when hero or heroine is called for, can't
simply be used in both cases.

Michael McColl
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