From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:34:23 GMT

gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner) writes:
>Granted, there are few women in LoTR.  This is a valid "criticism" of
>the work.

I do not consider this a criticism because the amount of women that can
be expected going to war in such a society is slim.  However, I will
agree that many men were widowers, and did not seem to need to be so.

Another point: ever notice how widowers (Theoden, Denethor) who don't
have any intention of "marrying and settling down" are all killed off?
Is there a moral to this?  Should we assume that Tolkien thinks that without
marriage, a person doesn't have a future?

>It is more than a war, though.  You must (despite the protestations of
>James Chokey) at LoTR in the context of past events.  The War of the

I agree here.  The War of the Ring was not a struggle of armies.  It was
written as a struggle of morals and will.  In essense, a struggle of souls:
the Free Peoples of the West desiring to remain free and willing to "cast
aside everything rather than submit to Sauron".  The major struggles Frodo
and many of the Company had were those of will.  After that, battle was
comparatively easy.  Gandalf didn't cower against the Balrog, and fought
him to the death.  The Men of Minas Tirith were afrid of the Nazgul and
so were beaten before the battle began.  Only the riders of Rohan
with their songs started to rally the troops of Gondor.  The battles the
Company faces are battles of will: Saruman vs. Gandalf, Balrog vs. Gandalf,
Theoden vs. Gandalf, Sauron (the Ring) vs. Frodo, Sam, and Gandalf, the
Witch-King aided by the Ring vs. Frodo.  Note:  All of the valorous deeds
were by those who took a moral stance against evil first and did not seek
to kill.  Even Eowyn, who sought death, fought not to kill, but for the
sake of her uncle Theoden (who she probably believed was alive).  To run
from evil in terror was shown to be a failing, such as Frodo's lack of
will at Weathertop, the fate of Frodo and Sam at Cirith Ungol, the troops
of Rohan and Gondor at Minas Tirith and the Wastelands of Mordor.

> I think Eowyn misses some of these points; all she saw was
>people going off to fight (and leaving her home).  She misses that
>many of these people do not want to fight (even Aragorn says so in his
>talk with her), and that they are only doing what they need to do to
>rid Middle-Earth of a great evil, not to win glory for themselves.

This is my opinion as well.  What Eowyn says has to be taken with a bag
of salt 'cuz she's emotionally unstable until after the War is over.

>I think it is clear that Galadriel is the true power *and* wisdom in
>Lorien.  Celeborn is just a figure (not even a figure head).  I think
>you are reading too much into the initial discussions between the
>Company of the Ring, Celeborn, and Galadriel.

I don't think he's reading way too much in.  It is clear that Galadriel
does defer to Celeborn.  Whether he does this through deferrence or through
wisdom is not clear.  Recall how many feet Celeborn had in his mouth at
the end of the discussion.  How many did Galadriel remove with her words?
"Wise lords send their minions into battle before they themselves enter
battle" -- paraphrased from Denethor's passages.  It is highly questionable
how much Galadriel was deferring to Celeborn because she was deferring and
how much she was deferring to him because she was wiser and thus was
"sending her minion before her".

>Well, this is probably better discussed elsewhere, but in my opinion,
>if more women stopped chasing after the unreachable Aragorns of the
>world, and started looking towards the Faramirs of the world who
>regard them as equals and value what they value in themselves, they
>wouldn't get depressed.

Uh, Aragorn only wasn't interested in Eowyn because HE WAS ALREADY ENGAGED.
If he wasn't, he probably would've taken serious consideration of marrying her.

>Middle-Earth, and the other lands of Tolkien's creation are not
>society as we understand it.  Being a rebel just causes you (and
>others) trouble.  If Eowyn had continued to rebel, and insisted on
>fighting, or be in charge of some place or people that wished to be
>left in peace, she would have been guilty of the same kinds of
>misdeeds that caused all the trouble in Tolkien's lands in the first place.

Yes, but it sometimes is justified.  Eowyn's departure with the Riders and
Eomer's hunt of the Orcs despite Theoden's command were clearly justified.
Eowyn didn't have anyone left to fight after the War.  She also didn't have
the right type of personality to be a single ruling queen by herself.

>Faramir did not want a housewife and Eowyn did not want to be one, either.

I have known several females of Eowyn's termperament and while some of them
are "housewives" they are also equals.  I doubt Eowyn would've settled for
less than being the Princess of Ithilien in her own right, that is, an equal
ruler of Ithilien and not her husband's servant.

>As Tolkien was a man of his time, doubtless there are some gender-role
>assumptions that need to be challenged, but I think you are being too
>critical of him here.  He was certainly far ahead of his time, with
>respect to recognizing the value and strength of the "woman's role".
>--gregbo

I fail to see what more Tolkien needs to do.  He already has:
1.  Male-oriented household with happy woman (Goldberry)
2.  Male-orineted household with depressed woman (Eowyn in Meduseld)
3.  Independent depressed woman (Eowyn as a Rider)
4.  Independent happy woman (Galadriel).

Perhaps people counted too much on Eowyn to be the "woman against the grain"
and didn't pay enough attention to the fact that it is Galadriel, not Eowyn
who shows the model of an "independent self-actualized" woman.

One of the major mistakes of youth (Eowyn) is that action and glitter is
valued more than ongoing stable power.  Thus, the slaying of the witch-king
is regarded as more "wow - inspiring" than Galadriel's incredible wisdom
and power.  Perhaps Eowyn gains some wisdom after the War.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA