HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi)
Subject: A koren living in the U.S.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 03:23:45 GMT

In article <1992Oct04.221916.8377@eng.umd.edu> dskim@eng.umd.edu (Daeshik Kim) writes:
>	I think this is pretty much same kinda excuse as I can't
>	get promotion because I'm Korean.

This could be my remarkable insensitivity.  Or it could be my un-awareness
of the situation around me.  But, somehow, I never felt any kind of racism
living in the U.S. (or in Brazil for that matter).  I have always felt I
have been treated fairly, and when I lose, I have always felt I deserved
it.

I am not high up enough to meet the glass ceiling yet, but so far, I never
felt any barrier.  It could be the field that I am in (science and
engineering, what else?).  Or it could be that I am rather adapted to the
life here to the point that I do not give this "foriegn" or "outsider" air
to the people around me.

On the other hand, there are Koreans that I would not promote if I were
their superior.  They are the ones who have language problems.  Everyone
has language problem in a foreign country.  But some refuse to improve over
time.  Sticking to their favorite Korean home drama video in their spare
time, they seem to put no effort in improving their communication skill in
the main language spoken on the land they live in.

Tough project are hard enough even when you have perfect communication.
Humor and pun are what make hard times a little softer.  When you can
barely communicate what needs to be done, there is no room for any kind of
humor, or social grease.

Not being able to speak proficiently also poses many problems in
representing the company they are working for.  So, it is natural that they
are not promoted.  I do not see it as a racism.  I see it as an
incompetence problem.  Language inability is a kind of incompetence.

As all of you noticed, this posting is full of article errors.  It was not
intentional.  Unfortunately, I cannot see them.  However, I am working on
it.  Those who work for me are constantly asked to interrupt and correct my
grammatical, idiomatic mistakes.  They were reluctant at first, but they
are now pretty merciless.  :(

To summarize this babble, It is not fair to be left out from promotion
because of your national origin.  But is it logical to be left out for the
lack of a vital skill in business.

James Choi
>	Daeshik Kim	H: (703)273-1517 O: (703) 689-5878
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
From: andrew@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Andrew Sung Hyun Kim)
Subject: Re: Dual citizenship.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 02:50:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.174018.9189@eng.umd.edu> dskim@eng.umd.edu (Daeshik Kim) writes:
>
>	If you say those culture related differences are the
>	difference between the westernized thought and Koreans,
>	I can't say any more on that; but I don't think that
>	those cultural difference will govern the fundamental thought
>	as a human such as what's right or wrong.

Even to this day in certain cultures women are considered as chattel.
Public execution by behaeading still occurs to this day for such offense
as adultry.  These are considered to be 'right' in these cultures.
So, there IS cultural differences between cultures which may determine
what is right and wrong.   What can be more fundalemtal than human life,
but historically some cultures practiced human sacrifice, as 'rightful'
thing to do.  etc.etc.....

So, cultural difference can account for people from different culture
having diametrical opinions.  What Korean parent think of as spanking
can surely land parents in jail here in US.  

>	What I'm trying say is:
>	say, A thinks in this way; but B from the other contry thinks in
>	that way; in the mean time, A's brother, AA thinks just like B while
>	BB, B's sister, thinks like A.
>	Therefor , thought differ by different people not by the culture.

Again, reconsider what you have written.... human being is social animal
and as such his culture will to a large extent color his judgement.
Of course, there seems to be general universal concepts in most cultures,
but one can seem to always find exceptions.  Yes, different people
will account for some of the difference, but their culture can not 
be ignored as I stated above.
 
>	Daeshik Kim	

Andrew Sung Hyun Kim
From: andrew@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Andrew Sung Hyun Kim)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: Re: Korea
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:09:27 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

In article <1992Sep29.150448.27284@news.acns.nwu.edu> phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi) writes:
>As someone who often served as an interpreter between parents and children,
>(in my ga-jeong-gyo-sa tutoring days) I am aware of this problem
>first-hand.  However, the depth of the language required for this type of
>communication is far beyond any college level language course offered in
>the U.S. and even further beyond what sunday schools can teach.
>
>The words that are needed for this type of father-son communication is
>seldom used anywhere else.  And it takes a whole lot more than "did you
>have dinner?" to understand each other.

Of course, there is a definite limitation of these so called Korean language 
schools as far as how much it can teach.  Most of these schools are once
a week thing; and as such cannot really teach very much beyond rudimentary
knowledge of the language.  The most important aspect in learning any
language is determination to learn, be it self-induced or as made necessary
by being tossed into the water to 'learn to swim'.

The opportunity exists, especially in big metropolitan area like LA,Chicago,
New York, for people desiring to learn the language.  By associating with
the people, one can make that 'quantum leap' even here in US.  There are
organization for young businessmen, numerous other groups as well as
church related groups.

I know of 1.5 generation Koreans who read Korean novels, poetry, history
books with Korean dictionary... very tiring way to learn.. but I do
admire their desire.

Recently, I saw a video tape made by the Billy Graham's group when
they visited north.  One thing that struck me was how well the interpreter
translated very difficult theological discussion on real-time basis
(at Kim-Il-Sung college, translator was an American).  I do not know
what the translator's background was but, at least it gives hint that
such thing is possible.

>So, I am not very optimistic just by looking at the number of schools.  

I recently attended a graducation ceremony for one of Korean language school.
One of the graduating pupil addressed gathered in Korean.  His manner
of speech of bit awkward, and sometimes incorrect... but effort should
be applauded. 

The number of these school can give an indirect indication as to the
existence of desire and felt need of such services... a good first
step.  ALthough I agree that once a week 2-4 hour classes probably
cannot do much... Here is why I insist that parents much be fully
involved... leanring a language cannot be merely 2-4 hour per week thing.

>James Choi

Andrew Sung Hyun Kim

I do not feel brave enough to be contemporary with such event, but for that
reason I do not judge harshly of those who were mistaken, nor think meanly of
those who saw the truth."               Soren Kierkegaard
                                       "Fear and Trembling"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
From: phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi)
Subject: Re: Please send me a copy of hangul rom
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 02:27:55 GMT

In article <1473700042@igc.apc.org> An-Ly Yao <anlyyao@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>could it be, that someone did some work to make such a ROM? Could it be,
>that that person deserves to be payed for it. James - if you do any work -
>do you expect to be payed for it. If not, you are welcome to work for me.
>I need someoune, who does lots of work without asking for any payment.
>
>bye, Goetz
>

The subject line got truncated.  It was "please..... hangul romanization
table".  Maybe you are willing to pay to use standard romanization, or to
use any standard language or expression, etc.  I am not that rich. :(

By the way, no one sent me a copy.  There was a detailed posting that
illustrated how the mapping was done.  Could the original poster send a
copy to me, or re-post?  Mr. Goetz may actually pay you for your work. :)

James Choi
From: seoul@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Sungwoo Nho)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: Re: Was (Re: dual citizenship .....)
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:22:26 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Sep29.011205.24648@syacus.acus.oz.au> woongki@syacus.acus.oz.au (Woong-Ki Chong) writes:
>
>>Confucious's mother moved three times.  It is because the environment
>>influences people's thought pattern and value.
>
>
>Wasn't it Maeng-Ja's (Mengcious?) mother?

It was Mengtse(or  Mencius).

*****************************************************************************
*  Sungwoo Nho                        | seoul@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (internet) * 
*  University of Texas at Austin      | (512)-471-1216 (voice)              *
*  Mechanical Engineering Department  | (512)-471-0616 (fax)                * 
*  I LOVE SEOUL                       | I LOVE AUSTIN                       * 
*****************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
From: Shane Peterson
Subject: Re: The future of Korea
Reply-To: shanepe@staff.tc.umn.edu
Organization: CIS-WBCS
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 00:20:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.172341.3690@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au>
u1714614@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au writes:

>	Now can we share our opinion about the future of our country,
>	Korea.
>	I assume (expect ?), Korea will be united with North Korea in
>	the near future - perhaps within 5 years.
>	What do you think ? - when, how, why ...
>	What is the biggest obstacle ?  How can we remove it ?
>	What is the best way to unite ?
>	After the nation united, what kind of social, economic, or
>	moral structure are desirable ?
>
>	young
>

I also believe unification can happen within 5 years but not like it happened
with Germany.  The former West Germany has had the great burden (economically)
of incorporating the East German economy and laborors.  The former WGer economy
was much stronger than Korea's, but still had (has) problems with the
unification as far as displaced workers, strain on standard of living, etc. 
South Korea, if it were to play a similar economic role, would be in the "red"
so fast further turmoil would probably occur leading to "who-knows-what."

South and North Korea must develop a unification plan that would evolve over
years.
i.e.,


stage 1     Have full communication between governments(no kidding)

stage 2     Allow companies to exchange information and technology.  
            Allow Korean civilians to communicate with eachother via
               letter, phone, fax, (not on eachothers soil [yet]) 
            Design new economic policies
            Draw up new govt proposal
            Possibly (probably) bring in 3rd party negotiators (i.e., US
            UN, EC, CIS, China, Japan, etc)

stage 3     Allow companies to conduct business between countries
            Continue unification policy design
            Formulate Govt proposals
            Ensure both populations are aware of planned unification

stage 4     Ensure sufficient stability exists to allow for final stage

stage 5     Set up the new govt
            Open the borders
            pray!
 
stage 6     Hold elections for new govt
            pray!


This is just an example of a type of format that might be acceptable for both
Koreas, the Korean populations, and the World Community. Of course, in this
scenario, the governments have to open up a conducive dialog.  Getting to that
point is obviously the most difficult thing.

###my views are not necessarily those of the University of Minnesota's###

Shane M. Peterson
shanepe@staff.tc.umn.edu
From: u1714614@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: The future of Korea
Date: 30 Sep 92 07:23:41 GMT
Organization: The University of Melbourne


	To everybody

	Now can we share our opinion about the future of our country,
	Korea.
	I assume (expect ?), Korea will be united with North Korea in
	the near future - perhaps within 5 years.
	What do you think ? - when, how, why ...
	What is the biggest obstacle ?  How can we remove it ?
	What is the best way to unite ?
	After the nation united, what kind of social, economic, or
	moral structure are desirable ?

	young
From: kim@cs.arizona.edu (Kyung Soo Kim)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: Korea
Keywords: PC PRICE
Date: 27 Sep 92 21:15:02 GMT

Let me clearfy a couple of things about PC prices in Korea.
It is right that the PC price in Korea is higher than in U.S, ., 
but not as higher as what people think.  First of all people can
buy 386/486 motherboard at $210 in Yongsan Elec. center.  Which
is even cheaper than in the U.S.  486 CPU chip costs $800 in Korea
(Jun. '92).  Also, friend of mine upgraded his memory to 4M(it cost him
$230 in Jul. '92).  The HD price is higher than here(120M Quantem drive 
was $800, where maxtor and conner priced around $700).  We can't  compare
video board price since most video card sold in Korea contains its on
Korean card.  But the price range was between $35 and $250(HanGul MaDang).
Also, if we consider the warranty(after service), we should subtract 
about $300 from the PC price since most computers come with life time
warranty(except HD).  Also PC's sold in US(Korean made) are different from
the product sold in Korea.  You can test the Korean made PC's sold in US 
with NetWork.  

kenny

Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
From: billd@gdstech.GRUMMAN.COM (Bill D'Camp)
Subject: Re: Korea
Organization: Grumman Corporation
	<1992Sep25.183557.12254@news.yale.edu>
	<1992Sep26.113442.23330@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
	<1992Sep27.054757.9514@news.yale.edu>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:59:40 GMT

shin-jungshik@CS.YALE.EDU writes:
>   He did  not look at where he should have looked at to find real market
>price of PCs in Korea. Neither did you seem to look at the right place to
>find 486 PCs.  That's NOT a dept. store but Yongsan Electronics Market or 
>many small vendors around schools and towns. In Austrailia, they sell 486 PC
>or whatever the most advanced model of PC at a dept. store,don't  they? 
>In the US and Korea, that's not the case. Even though sometimes they have 
>a few at dept. store, price is usually higher(in Korea much higher ) than
>when getting one via other routes. 

I did some extensive shopping at the Yongsan Electronics Market from
Jan through April of this year and I found that prices for machines
there were double (or more) the cost of a similar machine in the U.S.,
and I'm not talking about "name brand" computers here, these were
clones made by Korean companies, most of which were not well-known
companies.  I think inflation may have affected the prices of the
"cheap" machines which you refer to.

>  In spring of 1991, 386DX with 387 coprocessor,200MB HDD,8MB RAM,128k cash,
>VGA card,and VGA monitor costed about $3000 or even less. Now,I guess, 486 DX
> with similar settings costs less than $2500 in Korea,which is definitely 
>higher  than ,but not twice as high as the lowest price for 486DX in the US.

This same configuration (486) cost my company over $4000 for a no-name
brand from a shop in Yongsan E.M. in March of 1992.  I think prices
may be higher than you think.  The prices which we paid were lower
than the prices posted above the machines by about 15%, I love to
haggle.
--
    _   /|
    \`o_O'
      ( )    Aachk! Phft!
       U
billd@gdstech.grumman.com
-- 
    _   /|
    \`o_O'
      ( )    Aachk! Phft!
       U
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
From: phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi)
Subject: Re: Dual citizenship.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 19:23:45 GMT

I guess my posting did not get to your site yet.  I repeat my reply.


In article <PDz-Ts_@engin.umich.edu> tempo@engin.umich.edu (Kyoungkuhn Park) writes:
>James, let me try this again.  First of all, I don't think
>                                                     What if U.S.
>  turns to an Empire like Japan once was, and start bombing Seoul

Defect.  As many germans did during Nazi years.

>--KP
> 
James Choi

Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
From: phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi)
Subject: Re: Dual citizenship.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:32:52 GMT

I forgot to reply to one point in Mr. B. Sean Kim's posting.

>    It was you who started it first.

Yes, based on a false assumption.  It was my mistake.

>    It was you who threw the stone to Mr. Salas.  

Yes.  But I also stated why I did so.  I blew whistle at him (or threw
a stone at him) but I also stated why I am doing so.  I never got
an explanation from you why I am a monster.  I hope to see the answer to
three questions I asked in my previous posting.

>    You only apologized conditionally based on his
>    circumstances, not ALL the circumstances.  Read follow.

Of course the apology was conditional.  He was a victim of the
circumstance.  How can I be apologetic to a true opportunist who tries to
have best best of both worlds while avoiding the worst of both?

A typical use of dual citizenship I can think of is to avoid the military
service in one coutry claiming to be a citizen of the other.  He/she will
always be the citizen of whichever country that is more convenient at the
time.

A person (korean born, U.S. citizen) I met in a party was bragging about
how he does not pay tax in either country thanks to his clever accounting
method.  I think he is more opportunist than I am.  And I do not see why he
is not an opportunist.  Should I be admiring his ingenuity instead?  What
do you think of this person?

James Choi
From: andrew@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Andrew Sung Hyun Kim)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: Re: Korea
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:39:55 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

In article <1992Sep28.224516.6862@oracle.us.oracle.com> jnlee@uucp (John Lee) writes:
>
>As a owner of perfect hind sight, I want my two children to be able to
>speak Korean - if not for any illusive idealogy, then to enhence 
>opportunities in life.  
>
>John R. Lee (Jong-Rim Lee)

There is a more important reason beside, 1) to satisfy some ideology, and
2) for economic opportunity.

I have seen many family problems arising from the communication gap between
non-Korean speaking offspring and their mostly-Korean speaking parents.
Not only is there a big generation gap, there is also cultural as well
as language gap.  I see this as a one of major contributing factor
in many confrontation between parents and their children.  Inability
of first generation to speak English can be blamed to a certain extent
but the problem of forgotten language/untaught language is another
side of this problem.

I think many parents as well as people in leadership position in Korean
community see this as serious problem.  A recent newspaper reported that
there are over 900 Korean schools abroad, and fully 2/3 of them are here
in US.  So, there is hope :)

--
Andrew Sung Hyun Kim        " 'All truth is simple',  is it not doubly a lie?"
andrew@eecs.nwu.edu         " The refinement of morality increase  with  the
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
From: int177c@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Jae Won)
Subject: Re: Computer in Korea
Organization: Monash University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 06:51:56 GMT

In article <80602@ut-emx.uucp> btlee@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Mr. Byungtae Lee) writes:
>From: claypool@seas.gwu.edu (Hyok H. Lee) writes:
>
>	>There are almost no computers in Korea.  Everyone uses an abacus.
[jokes about Korean computing scene...of course made up totally]

>mechanical!  
>
>  What! are you sure kidding?  Now, Korean is one of major PC manufacturing countries and most of companies have been eagerly computerized.  Still, there are two families of PC, IBM compatible and Japanese versions which are transmitted  by IBM Korea.  However, IBM compatible seems to win in this game.  
>
>	>Instead of disks, they have punched cards made of compressed seaweed.
>The good thing is, if you get hungry at work, you can eat the date.
>The loss of information by this method is a major problem.
>
>Once again, you are talking about stone age.   Now, both 3" and 5" are availabe and you can find the same trend in Korea. 3" is getting popular. In short, you can find everything in Korea which you can see here. I, myself was in charge of computer department and business planning of Inforation related product. Even Laser printer is big business there.			
>
>	>I hope this was informative. :) :) :) :) :)
>
I found it funny at least..:)

>As I told you, it is not informative but outdated and misinformative.		Have a nice day
>  

This is quite incredible. Some people just don't get it.
I support the original poster. He was quite funny. The second poster has no idea
and has no sense of humour...What do you think those smilies above meant???

Jae
From: zoon@cs.umd.edu (Sungzoon Cho)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: Re: Korea
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:14:04 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

In article <1992Sep29.150835.27435@news.acns.nwu.edu> andrew@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Andrew Sung Hyun Kim) writes:

> ....
> However, it is at this stage many start to forget the Korean
>language; there are just too much competitions such as Ninja Turtles,
>Nintando, Cartoons, and starting to attend preschool etc..  It is very tough
>to motivate these kids as to what opportunities they may have 15-20 years from
>now. 
>....

   Good point.  A korean family that I acquainted here in Maryland has
 two kids, a girl around 17 years old and a boy about 14 years old.
 Both of them lived here almost all of their lives, yet spoke very fluent
 Korean.  The magic was that their parents fed them with numerous 
 cartoon books in Korean since they were very young.  Yes, they got
 addicted to those cartoons and learned the language.   Of course, they
 spoke only Korean  at home.   The morale is that parents have to be
 creative in persuading kids to learn/practice/use the language.   
 Force does not seem to work well.

   Sungzoon Cho (zoon@cs.umd.edu)

 PS. Yes, learning a language gives many opportunities, monetary, cultural
    and just plain fun.  I read an article that learning a new language
    slows down even the aging process :-)
 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean