From: nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle)
Subject: Re: A Stolen Life, A Dying Soul
Organization: Psych Department, Indiana University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:27:25 GMT

kebarnes@memstvx1.memst.edu writes:
>nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle) writes:

[about a jillion lines of quotes snipped in which Ken and Simon try to be 
serious and I crack a bunch of quick one-liners]

>Engle:
>>     Perhaps so. To get back to my dispassionate analytical mode, I would 
>> note that violent, "soulless" cultures have a tendency to be fairly 
>> successful empire builders. As long as the inherent tendency towards 
>> violence doesn't impair population growth our prospects for continuing 
>> as a nation are fairly good. If you would like to make the argument that 
>> the current level of violence is excessive then I would agree, but at 
>> least from a historical perspective I would say that the level of violence 
>> we're seeing doesn't necessarily pose an immediate threat to our survival 
>> as a nation. It would certainly be much more pleasant to have nice neighbors 
>> whose kids we're pretty sure aren't going to murder us, but at this point 
>> I think that the murder rate is still less than the birth rate.

>Barnes:
> A remarkably cynical outlook :-}. 

    Look for my picture in the dictionary under the word 'cynical'.

>We're not seeing levels of violence
>currently that could be compared to the War Between The States, to be
>sure, but to the citizens directly in the line of fire, that point
>makes little difference. Every American should have a reasonable
>expectation that their governments on whatever level, will be able
>to protect their civil rights, and that is clearly not happening
>when the courts fail to provide justice to both the criminal and to
>the victims. What has become of the constitutional right to a
>speedy trial? What has become of the constitutional right to
>due process when so many cases are plea-bargained? What about the
>expectation that one can be secure in life, liberty, and property?
>How about the scandalous fact that the leading cause of death of
>young black men is other young black men? The anarchy that was
>visited on Los Angeles last year is enough of a warning sign, I
>should think. The civil and criminal courts are both overloaded.

    Well, you are absolutely correct that the state of individual freedom 
is threatened by the moral terpitude. I've been reading history recently 
about civilizations being overrun by barbarians from the hinterlands of 
their empires, and although our 'empire' doesn't really have hinterlands 
any more I would have to say that our current danger of being overrun by 
'barbarians' from within is increasing. It's certainly not an analogy I'd 
care to push too far, but I keep getting this recurrent mental image of 
Ghengis Khan listening to a boom box.

>Our national contempt of government is in no small part due to the
>apparent inability of the responsible authorities to protect even
>the basic rights, while at the same time taxing our wealth away to
>fund an unhealthy dependence on government subsidies by all sectors
>of our society. We're not getting the government we've already
>paid for, to paraphrase Mr. Perot. He, like the rest of us, should
>know about government subsidies.

    Hey, you have a lot of nerve to call me cynical (but that's ok, I 
*like* being called cynical). I really don't think that things have 
slipped to quite the extent you're suggesting here. The trends may be 
there but Western Civilization "isn't quite dead yet". 

--
Nathan Engle                        Software Juggler
Psychology Department               Indiana University
nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu      nengle@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh