From: belal@macavity.engin.umich.edu (belal  khalid)
Subject: Re: Existence of God
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:40:43 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Assalam-u-eleykum,

I wrote this article, to strengthen the hands of muslems, in their endeavors
against athiests. However, Ahmad criticised some points, I appreciate it,
because first, Muslems have to understand the arguments, only then they
could use them against athiests. So let me clarify things one by one.

Ahmad Hashem wrote
>I hesitated a lot before I decided to compose this reply.  I think
>most of your arguments don't work at all.  I think it is better that a Muslim
>shows this to you than to leave it to the "atheist friends."

I was expecting from muslems to strengthen my arguments.

>1. All RELIGIONS BELIEVE IN GOD: Your argument here is basically what is
>called in philosophy "the Psychological Argument."  It is attributed
>originally to Freud, and it is an argument AGAINST the existence of God!  You
>are saying:
> All peoples have religion
> All religions have God
> Therefore, God exists.

Your very start of inferences is wrong. I never claimed that all people have
religion, and this has led you to wrong conclusions. Please read again.
I said, that there has been religions in almost all parts of the world,
throughout the history. And further, that all the religions believe in
God.

>But the argument at best shows that God is a universal psychological need for
>humans, not that He indeed exists. If we both agree that we need unicorns to
>make our bedtime stories nicer, it does not follow that unicorns do exist in
>reality.

God is not a universal psychological need. Had it been so there would have
been no athiests in this world. Alas, you are comparing God with unicorns.
Please think over it, once more.

>2. WHO ARE THOSE WHO CALL PEOPLE TOWARDS GOD?: Ummm.  I don't agree with the
>stuff about philosophers.  There were some great philosophers who did stand
>firmly and even died for their principles; e.g., Socrates.

Socrates did not claim that he was appointed by God, neither did he call
people towards God. All the religious leaders, who called people towards
God, their live were a model for the people, even before they made their
claim. They were righteous people, and their deeds did speak of their
truth.

>3. EVEN DISBELIEVERS IN THEIR HEART ARE AFRAID OF GOD: I don't find this
>convincing really.  Immanuel Kant derived all the moral principles from
>rationality.  It is "normal" that we follow these moral principles because our
>very essence is rationality.

The result you have drawn is really fine. I was just saying the same thing,
that this is the same rationality, we have in us, towards which religions
have always called.

>Also, our need for God does not establish His existence.  On the contrary, our
>need for God might support the claim that *we* created [the notion of] God,
>not the other way round.

I never claimed that we need God, and I never put it as an argument for
the existence of God.

>6. BELIEVERS ARE ALWAYS EXALTED ON OTHERS:
>How about taking a look at the world around us?  Focus especially on Muslims
>and you will see: Bosnia, Somalia, Tajikstan, etc.  Muslims are the lowest of
>all nations.  (I know, you will say it's because they are not following true
>Islam.  But an ateist will not be really convinced.)

I think, you did not read past the heading in my article. I was talking
about the religious leaders and the true believers. If Bosnia, Somalia
and Tajikstan are being opperessed then, its a point to think for all
the muslims. Is there something wrong in their beliefs, or some thing
wrong in their deeds? Think over it and let me know, I will like to
hear.

>Nevertheless I think you are making an endeavor that is important for all
>Muslims, and for this I thank you.

I expect all the muslems to join hands in this common struggle. Ahmad, why
don't you add some points, which support the existence of God, in a follow
up article.


Belal


Once the game is over,
the King and the Pawn,
go back into the same box,

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam,soc.culture.arabic