HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik stman)
Subject: Re: Alcoholism in Scandinavia.....
Reply-To: euafri@eua.ericsson.se
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:40:12 GMT

Dan Kiselman writes:

>Personally, I wouldn't mind if alcohol (ethanol) was banned and disappeared
>altogether for drinking, being "culture" or not. But since I am considering
>myself a democrat, it shouldn't be done if not some majority would accept it

In a true democracy, you shouldn't ban it even if a vast majority
accepts it. There are such things as human rights and protection of
individuals (often referred to as minorities).

---
         ______                     _~
        (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
       __/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Pakkoruotsi Suomen kouluissa
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 07:21:05 GMT

Mauri Haikola (mjh@stekt6.oulu.fi) wrote:
: In article <1992Nov10.220537.11086@ugle.unit.no> jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
: 
: > I risk being a racist - but I couldn't resist  (-:
: 
: > It sure is practical to post in a language that only a minority in
: > Norden understands... :-)
: 
: Not only that, it's the best idea Jarmo has had for a long time
: (ever?). This way, our international readers aren't bothered by his
: raving, and we avoid flamewars that don't do any good for the
: reputation of Finns on the net. I hope he keeps writing in Finnish; he
: makes less mistakes in it, too.  :-)

So you must be veeery wise person when you know eglish?
Is it so simple?????
I do not rate people's IQ or position in the society by their Finnish
understanding even if that were the similar method.
: 
Reputation of the Finns? What a silly issue!
Terveisi{ vaan, kaikille kaan huolestuneille suomalaisille.
Heh,heh,
Jarmo
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: cindy@solan10.solan.unit.no (Cynthia Kandolf)
Subject: Re: Home language - native language
Organization: /home/ludviga/cindy/.organization
Date: 23 Nov 92 23:25:31

Mats Andersson writes:
>On the contrary. The ARE different languages. Nynorsk is partly
reconstructed
>from the old Norwegian as it survived in some regions, whereas Bokmaal
is
>a form of Danish with a pronounciation change to fit the Norwegians
way of
>speech. It might seem daring to say that to born Norwegian. Still, it
is
>hard to refute on linguistic grounds!

On the contrary, it is extremely easy to deny on linguistic grounds.
Nynorsk and bokm}l aren't even _languages_.  They are written
standards.  That's just part of the definition of the words.  No one
speaks bokm}l or nynorsk. (Some people do speak something similar to
"spoken bokm}l", but most people who write bokm}l do not.)  Languages
have to have a spoken form.  Therefore, they can't possibly be
separate languages.

What people do speak in Norway are dialects.  These dialects vary more
from each other than those of some other small languages, largely
because until fairly recently (in historical-linguistics time 8-),
Norwegians lived fairly isolated from one another by rather difficult
geographical circumstances.  (Translation: lots and lots of mountains)
Also, during the long period in which Norway was under the Danish
crown, there was substantial Danish influence on the language of the
cities, particularly Oslo (Christiania, if we're being absolutely
accurate).  This influence was much less felt in the countryside.

Both nynorsk and bokm}l are somewhat artificial.  I say this at the
known risk of being flamed out of the water.  Bokm}l has its roots
in the "Danishized" language of the cities.  Nynorsk was an attempt
to construct a written form closer to the language of the countryside.
Both have what is, to the foreigner like me, a dizzying amount of
"standard", "illegal" and "optional" forms.

Although the dialects in Norway may differ from one another, they are
all mutually intelligible - which is to say, speakers of one dialect
can understand speakers of another.  By linguistic criteria, then,
they are all one language.  Social and cultural criteria also point
to all the Norwegian dialects as one language - the speakers of them
(almost) all are citizens of the same country and feel they are
culturally and historically linked to other speakers of the language.
The fact that there are two written standards is a moot point.
Norwegian is one language.

I am not a native Norwegian.  I am an American, and not even a
Norwegian-American at that.  I am, however, a linguist, and i
double-checked some of the fine points of this article with a native
speaker (who also has a keen interest in linguistics).  

-Cindy Kandolf
 cindy@solan.unit.no
 Trondheim, Norway
From: bjorn@ludd.luth.se (Bjorn Fahller)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedofobia in Jarmo Ryyti
Date: 19 Nov 92 10:24:35 GMT
Organization: Lule} Tekniska H|gskolas Datorf|rening - Ludd

In <1992Nov19.081028.4777@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

>Well there are no death camps in Amazonas either. In the old records one 
>can find systematical opression towards the Finns of Warmland, they
>burned valuable forests (kasekaminen)
> so they were punished, finnish people because
>of their language were considered beings wizards and therefore opressed
>and hanged, the entirely population was forbidden to use besides
>at home finnish, there was a ban for using finnish, I am comparing
>their destiny to those of american indians. We know what was and is still
>goinn on there. 

As far as I can see you've used past tense in all of the above except for
your conclusion. Why is that? 

I think your imagination is amazing. Your comparisons with, was it jews
first, now indians in amazonas and the red indians of North America. You
could probably make a living as a story teller. Show me one (1) finn on this
group supporting you? If you're right, all of them should. I haven't seen any.
   _
/Bjorn.
-- 
Bjorn Fahller     Phone:              |The opinions above are not necessarily
Trollnasvagen 3A  Intl:+46 920 226870 |those of... Hey! Wait a minute. Do you
S-951 61 Lulea    Natl:0920-22 68 70  |seriously expect Me, a student, to carry
Sweden            << space for rent >>|the official voice of the University?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: matsa@tdb.uu.se (Mats Andersson)
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Organization: Dept. of Scientific Computing, Uppsala Univ.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 13:00:32 GMT

  B{ste Herr Ryyti!

  Emedan Ni uppenbarligen {ger kunskaper i svenska spr}ket vill jag
 jag p}tala ett f|rh}llande som g}tt Er sp}rl|st f|rbi. Det begrepp
 som p} svenska heter hemspr}k och f|r n{rvarande upptar ett of|r-
 tj{nt stor del av Er uppm{rksamhet saknar helt den i Er mening f|r-
 dolda undertonen av neds{ttande begrepp. Ordet {r valt enbart av det
 sk{l att det p} b{sta s{tt beskriver f|r de i Sverige boende med 
 svenska som modersm}l det begrepp f|r vilket det anv{ndes! Det {r
 uppenbart att Ni, jag klandrar Er inte, ej till fullo har tillgodo-
 gjort Er detta ords denotation. Samma grund ligger bakom de sv}rig-
 heter som uppst}r vid varjehanda |vers{ttning till andra spr}k.
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Tasa-arvopuheet ovat osoittautuneet korulauseiksi
Date: 23 Nov 92 06:13:39 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Lekskola, G|teborg, G|taland

In article <TORKEL.92Nov21162256@bast.sics.se> torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:
>  Going on and on about how
>silly it is to compare X to Nazi Germany is almost as silly as the comparison
>itself.

  Well, the next time he compares Sweden to whatever, I won't bother writing 
anything about it. I will just crosspost it to the appropriate newsgroups and
see what the reaction is.

-bertil-
--
"Ack! Phht!" - Bill the Prez
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: Thomas Bjorkman <Thomas_Bjorkman@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Glo"gg recipe!!
X-Xxdate: Mon, 23 Nov 92 13: 52:37 GMT
Nntp-Posting-User: tnb1@cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:48:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.185320.1@acad3.alaska.edu> , fthp@acad3.alaska.edu
writes:
>Does anybody out there have a good recipe for glo"gg? 

Start with a bottle of dry, full, nondescript Califronia red wine (like
Gallo Burgundy) and some Marsala.  (I use about 2 parts red wine to  1
part marsala) Warm these and add orange peel, cinnamon sticks and whole
cloves.  Pull the spices after 10 min to 2 hours--whenever it tastes
right.  Add a little brown sugar if you must.  Ditto brandy.  Serve hot
with rainsins and blanched almonds.

Becasue the incredients are not standardized, it is impossible to give
exact times and proportions.  It is essential to keep adjusting and
tasting!  =)
From: bjorn@ludd.luth.se (Bjorn Fahller)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: What's wrong with Finnish? (WAS: Pakkoruotsi Suomen kouluissa)
Date: 19 Nov 92 11:19:41 GMT
Organization: Lule} Tekniska H|gskolas Datorf|rening - Ludd

In <1992Nov19.073439.3662@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

>Yeah, I have started using recently swedish in this group and I am called
>a swedefobe

I know this isn't the point of your post, but the reason I called you a
Swedofobe is reversed pun on your "Finnofobia on AAland" article series and
that you seem to dislike Swedes more than anything else walking on this
planet.

>My opinion is that in soc. culture . nordic nordic languages should be
>used. It is not my responsibility or shame if people do not know foreign
>languages for instance in the States..

Agree. (Surprice, huh!)

> I use to follow sometimes french, german and russian group and
>in those groups french, german and russian is widely used. Nordic group

Sigh. I wish I knew that many languages.

>should use swedish, norwegian, finnish, danish,icelandic, saami etc.
>and those who cannot understand should blame themselves  and start learning
>languages. I just wonder if someone is interested in Nordic culture but do not
>want to know the languages spoken in the Nordic countries. And I just like
>to point out to our american friends that finnish is after swedish most
>spoken language in the Nordic countries.

I understand your point, but what if I WANT to tell people who don't know
Swedish something? Should I still say it in Swedish and afterwards call
those who don't understand it stupid? If I'm interested in Asian culture,
I turn to, amongst others, soc.culture.asia. Why should I not be entitled
to know what's going on there unless I speak the language? I don't mind
Asians, interested in nordic cultures, reading this group, and I do
certainly not demand that people interested in nordic culture learn
Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Finnish and Icelandic before they even attempt
it. Okay, I guess this should be narrowed down to one of S,D,N, making it
only 3 languages. Am I also not entitled to know anything at all about Finnish
culture because I don't understand finnish?

>The Nordic netters should rise their profile a little in this sence I think.

As someone else said, I think he was a Norwegian, although I don't remember his
name. Language is not to be used as a barrier, but as a means of communication.
The more langauges you know the better, no doubt about it, but cutting out
someone because they don't know your language, when indeed there is a
language you both understand, is not the way to go, in my opinion.
   _
/Bjorn.

-- 
Bjorn Fahller     Phone:              |The opinions above are not necessarily
Trollnasvagen 3A  Intl:+46 920 226870 |those of... Hey! Wait a minute. Do you
S-951 61 Lulea    Natl:0920-22 68 70  |seriously expect Me, a student, to carry
Sweden            << space for rent >>|the official voice of the University?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Nordic languages
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Distribution: soc.culture.nordic
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:09:04 GMT

Soeren L. Buhl (slb@iesd.auc.dk) wrote:
: There is a point I want enlightenment on.
: Several letters in this group have stated that Finnish is the
: second most spoken among the Nordic languages.
: Is this true?  Facts, please!
: According to CIA (1990) World Facts the populations are:
: Finland:  4977325
: Denmark:  5131217
: I only want facts, not that Finns or Danes are better,
: due to their number or anything else.

Just a shy note, Finnish is spoken outside Finland too, not only
in Finland. I would not take  from
the population of a country so direct conclusions as you do.
There is estimated being c. 500 000 finnish speakers in Sweden alone.
Swedish Bureau of Statistics surely knows the exact numbers.

Norway, who knows. I do not like either that kind of "competition"
I just like to remark  a fact that finnish is the second most
spoken language in the Nordic countries. What is wrong with that
remark, I wonder? Some people seem to become angry even of that
remark. Does it turn some preassumptions up and down or what?
Wondering indeed,
Jarmo Ryyti








Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se (John Dryselius TG/HB)
Subject: Re: Some history about AAland
Reply-To: etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Telecom
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:18:00 GMT

In article 7467@eua.ericsson.se, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik stman) writes:
|Bob Hammarberg writes:
|>John Dryselius TG/HB writes:
|
|>>The affair was solved by NF (1921?)
|
|> This was the first time the League's principles were put to 
|>the test - and the league failed the test miserably.
|
|But what about the demilitarisation? Was it the russians who demanded
|that, like I seem to remember from school?


As I remember it the demilitarization is due to the Crimean war 1851-1854 (?).
The Russians was creating a strong naval base at Aland (Bomarsund).
A combined French and English navy destroyed Bomarsund in 1854 (?) after 
they had bombed Copenhagen. I believe that after this there is an international
treaty that forbid anyone to have military bases of any kind at Aland.

/John

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Swedish crown is floating
Reply-To: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 10:13:03 GMT

d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>>You know in a short run it had been good for Finland if Sweden had not
>>devaluated because Finland is exporting at this moment more than ever in her
>>history,
>
>  When you have lost 25% of your export market in one fell blow?

This is not quite true. In the 'golden years' of eastern trade more than 20%
of Finnish exports went to Soviet Union. When the barter trade finally folded,
the percentage of exports to Soviet Union was about 10%.

Some of the Finnish industries gained from the recent devaluation and from
the fact that Swedish Crown managed to avoid it. On the other hand, both
devaluations increased bankruptcies among companies operating in the home
market.

However, recent increases in export is not enough to lift Finnish economy 
from the recession mainly because the share of exports from the economy
is not big enough and because the pulp and paper companies responsible for
the largest part of Finnish exports are heavily in debt.

>  "Skadegl{djen {r den enda sanna gl{djen"

How true that sometimes is, unfortunately. Yet I fail to see any reason
for that feeling among Finns, who have nothing to gain from Swedish 
devaluation.

Janne Kivela"

      "N{m{kin pusakat vain viisysiysi. Ja kaikista valtakunnan..."
                     ----- Simo vaatehuoneelta
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: matsa@tdb.uu.se (Mats Andersson)
Subject: Re: Home language - native language
Organization: Dept. of Scientific Computing, Uppsala Univ.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:47:47 GMT

Haavard Fosseng (haavardf@gluon.uio.no) wrote:
: Bokmaal and nynorsk are *not* different languages. They are two different
: orthographic/grammatic standards for written Norwegian.

On the contrary. The ARE different languages. Nynorsk is partly reconstructed
from the old Norwegian as it survived in some regions, whereas Bokmaal is
a form of Danish with a pronounciation change to fit the Norwegians way of 
speech. It might seem daring to say that to born Norwegian. Still, it is
hard to refute on linguistic grounds!
From: tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:43:49
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland, Laboratory for Information
	Processing (VTT/TIK)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tiuhti.tik.vtt.fi
In-reply-to: jkp@cs.HUT.FI's message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:39:42 GMT

   In article <1992Nov16.084221.25198@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
   >Mielenkiintoista on todeta, kun kopioin arvostetun ruotsalaisen tiedemiehen
   >kirjoittaman artikkelin Ruotsin valtion harjoittamasta kielisyrjinn{st{
   >suomalaisia  kohtaan Ruotsissa, en saanut yht{{n kommenttia ruotsalaisilta 
   >tai edes suomalaisilta itse asian sis{ll|st{.

Joo, mutta t{rke{t{ olisikin osata esitt{{ yhteenveto n{ist{
arvostettujen tiedemiesten kirjoituksista, eik{ viitaten niihin
esitt{{ omia (tahallisesti?) yliampuvia v{itteit{ tai rinnastuksia
natsi-Saksaan. T[llaista tuskin arvostetut tiedemiehet esitt{v{t, tai
sitten heid{ arvostuksensa on hyvin suppean piirin sis{ll{.
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland,
Laboratory for Information Processing (VTT/TIK).
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: bhamis@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Satya Bhamidipati)
Subject: Anti-foreign Attitudes in Scandinavia.....
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 05:21:08 GMT



    This is a posting for a friend. 


**************************

 I am curious to hear about anti-foreign attitudes in Scandinavia, 
 especially in Finland. Does it exist ? If it does, under what 
 circumstances and how ? I know there is a lot of resentment against 
 foreigners in central Europe (especially Germany). The reason I am 
 asking is, I plan to move there there for sometime (few years). 
 
 PLEASE DIRECT ANSWERS TO THE NET!     Lisa

**************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:51:14 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic

In article <1992Nov23.095646.21950@cs.hut.fi>, f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne
Kivel{) wrote:
> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik ) writes:
> 
> >It's the issue of immigration and people that have lived in the
> >same country since Medieval ages and before. I don't mind that Finns in
> >Sweden will start pushing for a bi-langual country, some time in
> >year 2800 A.D. You can't just move to another country and take it
> >over, you have to earn the rights for your culture. If this wasn't 
> >the case most borders would be closed, including the Swedish-Finnish
> >one. There's a reason behind immigration, in the case of Finns
> >that moved to Sweden it had to do with jobs and a higher living
> >of standard. If you immigrated, you made a choice, and you should
> >be *thankful* that the country accepted you -- instead of demanding
> >everything between heaven and earth.
> 
> Don't you think Sweden should be thankful to Finnish immigrants for the work
> they did for Swedish industry? I don't mean that Sweden has treated Finnish
> immigrants badly, but Kent Sandvik only seems to tell one side of the story
> in his postings. Kent also neglects the fact that there has always been
> Finnish-speakers within Swedish borders unlike serbocroat-speakers. 

I agree Swedes should be thankful for the highly trained workforce
they got from Finland. However, if you are an immigrant, you have 
a priviledge to stay in a country, and so you have a responsibility
towards the country that accepted you as well. You can't just demand
everything, when the biggest offer the country provided you was
the allowance to live there. You have to *earn* your rights, and
not just bluntly demand them.

I agree that there are Finns living just across the border, and Swedes
that live in Finland just across the border as well. However I do
think we are dealing with the majority level issues, in other words
500k+ Finnish immigrants living in Sweden, and 300k+ Swedish speaking
Finnish citizens. So I agree, I don't take into account all the small
villages across the Finnish/Swedish border up in the North :-). 

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: dan@astro.uu.se (Dan Kiselman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Alcoholism in Scandinavia.....
Date: 17 Nov 1992 10:48:27 GMT
Organization: Uppsala University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solaris.astro.uu.se

In article <1992Nov16.174012.28632@eua.ericsson.se>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fre
drik Vstman) writes:
|> Dan Kiselman writes:
|>
|> > Personally, I wouldn't mind if alcohol (ethanol) was banned and disappeared
|> > altogether for drinking, being "culture" or not. But since I am considering
|> > myself a democrat, it shouldn't be done if not some majority would accept i
t
|>
|> In a true democracy, you shouldn't ban it even if a vast majority
|> accepts it. There are such things as human rights and protection of
|> individuals (often referred to as minorities).
|>

The problem, of course, is how to decide what these rights are. I'm afraid that
this will always be decided by some majority (which could be majority by
numbers or majority by force or something else). If you try to protect
the rights of some individuals you will inevitably infringe those of others.

Ban the selling of alcohol to alcoholics and you have infringed
on the vendors "right" to make their business. Allow it, and the liquor vendors
will take advantage of the weakness of the alcoholics and destroy their
"right" to a decent life (or life at all) (against
the will of the alcoholics in most cases, N.B.)

But, these are of course universal problems and not specifically nordic,
so let's talk about something else. Like snow for example. In Uppsala,
there is at least 1 mm of it, on top of the muddy lawns.


-- 
           Dan Kiselman, Uppsala Astronomical Observatory, Sweden
           Dan.Kiselman@astro.uu.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: booserm@reis53.alleg.edu (Marcia Booser)
Subject: Re:Alcoholism in Scandinavia
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:25:55 GMT


Talk about alcoholism in Scandinavia...  Come visit an American college or  
university.
		Marcia Booser at Allegheny College,  USA
			booserm@alleg.edu