Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia Campus Computing, 314-882-2000
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 07:56:30 CST
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: EWTN

On Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:22:00 PST Jim McIntosh said:
>
>Well, I don't know who is causing the apparitions, if they are caused, but I
>am leery of them.  For one thing, they seem to be very inwardly centered,
>much as the Church was in times past, rather than directed out to the world.

If they seem this way it is because you are not familiar with a larger body
of the messages. To me, the focus of the messages, beyond improving our
own life, is to help others.

>The message seems to be fast and pray, and encourage others to do the same.
>While I have no problems with conversion (a continual conversion is a very
>necessary part of our religion), unless one is called to a life of
>contemplation they should by necessity be spending part of their time in the
>world... working to bring about the Kingdom of God.

But there is nothing in the messages to suggest otherwise. Perhaps it
depends on what you expect to hear. In the message I posted yesterday we
were told :
  "Do not scorn the poor who beg for a crust of bread. Do not refuse
   them the overabundance of your meals. Help them and God will help you
   also....Do not delude yourselves into thinking that you are good,
   but your brother who lives near you is not. You would not be right
   in doing so."

I don't know how this would appear to you, but to me it is a definitive
call to not only feed the hungry, but to do so respectfully, and to
be loving and nonjudgemental of those around us. Is this what you
feel is lacking in the messages - yet it is there?

>My second problem is the lack of a Christ or Gospel focus.  We have an
>incredible gift, one we celebrated yet again less than two weeks ago... the
>gift of the Son of God. We have his words and his teachings. We have his
>instructions on how we are to live our lives, and how we are to treat others.
>Instead of hearing about Matthew 5-7, however, I hear "pray the rosary" and
>"fast" from these various groups of children with their secrets.

It must be due to a lack of familiarity with the message. The messages
also focus on us coming *closer* to her Son, and to spending more time
in the Gospel and living the Gospel. I could post some of these if you
wish to read them.
>
>This is the third problem I have with these events, the gnostic quality. "We
>have the secrets of God. If you accept us we might let you in on God's
>secrets."  This seems very unchristian to me. Jesus was always open with his

Now Jim, this is not at all what is said. They, along with Sr. Lucia of
Fatima have secrets from God. (allegedly) "If you accept us we might let
you in on the secrets of God"????? Not hardly, nine or ten days before
each secret is to occur, Mirjana is to reveal it to her spiritual director.
He will fast and pray and decide what should be done. Ideally, three days
before it is to come to pass, he will announce it to the world....
The *entire* world whether they care or not, believe or not, will all hear.
As with the 3rd secret of Fatima and the Pope, he can use his own judgement.

>teachings. The message of the Gospel should be proclaimed to the nations, not
>treated like hidden treasures.

The message of the Gospel is being proclaimed to all nations, from all I
can tell among the evangelists of the world. At a rate never before seen.
No one is keeping the Gospel a hidden treasure.

>>According to Fatima, and Medjugorje, if we do not do these things
>>then many nations will be annihilated, and many children that God
>>dearly loves will be lost forever. The chastisements will be much
>>worse. This is why some people care very much whether others not
>>only hear the message, but are moved to *live* it. It affects us all.
>
>Why is it we humans have to be threatened with punishmment in order to
>want to do good?  Why is it that so many of these visions have, as one of
>their basic messages, predictions about an impending and terrible end-time?
>How has Christianity, one of the greatest gifts of God's love, fallen to
>this? Hidden secrets and private piety. What would Jesus say about how we
>treated his message?

I'm sure God wonders why we have to be threatened with punishment in order
to do good, also. Maybe we are too selfcentered to right our lives without
such threats. Actually, they are warnings, not threats. And I imagine that
at this point they are dealing with the end times because we are in the
end times. As for "why we have come to this", the Bible laid out clearly
all that is to occur to mankind, and scripture must be fulfilled. Whether
we wish it so or not. As for "hidden secrets and private piety", I don't
understand this perception. This is not at all how many of us perceive this.
I'm very sorry if what I have tried to convey leaves this impression.
To me it is an *opening* of self. An abandonment to the will of God and
a responsibility for all of our brothers and sisters. And it is most of
all a message of joy and hope...That when we learn to live close enough
to Jesus, and love all His children as we love Him, then He will Reign
forever. "Thy will be done, on *earth* as it is in Heaven", this is what
we eagerly await.

>On the other hand, I do truely feel that whatever brings you closer to God
>should be celebrated. I welcome the visions if they bring you closer to God.
>I know people who I respect deeply who are convinced that the visions and the
>message are true. I don't want you to think that I'm criticizing you,

Oh, it doesn't seem as if you are criticizing me, it seems as if you are
exercising discernment. This is absolutely imperative.

>Elizabeth, only expressing my own discomfort with uncritical acceptance of
>what, perhaps, are only the wild imaginings of some mischievous children.

Well, this is assuming that those who *do* accept Medjugorje are doing so
uncritically, are exercising no discernment. Its too bad you cannot speak
with my friend Diane. ;-) As a Protestant, when she presented Medjugorje
to me, I was completely negative. (sounded like that peasant religion,
Catholicism!)It took a long time and much reading to get a complete
understanding of what was going on. And actually, one really doesn't need
to go any further than Fatima. Medjugorje, to me, is  a reinforcement
because the world largely ignored Fatima. ( WWII and other horrors were
to have been avoided by the world living the message of Fatima...how many
millions died in WWII? 10 or 20????)

As for Medjugorje being the "wild imaginings of mischeivous children"....
you are aware, of course, of all the scientific studies these (now adults)
have submitted to? You are aware that they have virtually no lives of
their own? For 11 years now they have spent their entire lives under
scrutiny. Many of them daily meeting with multitudes? The patience is
unbelievable. And Ivan works always with the children, in prayer groups,
and witnesses around the world. I don't remember the details of what
all are doing just now, but they are certainly not leading inward lives.
While Mirjana and Ivanka are married and raising families today, all
of them basically sacrificed their lives. One would think if it were just
"wild imaginings" they would tire of the game. It would be difficult enough
to live this with *with* visits from the Blessed Virgin!

>Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)

In Jesus and Mary,
Elizabeth

Message of June 25, 1991, Tenth Anniversary of Our Lady of Medjugorje

 "Dear children, Today on this great day, I desire to bless all of you
and to say: These days while I am with you are the days of grace. I
desire to teach you and to help you walk on the path of holiness. There
are many people who do not desire to understand my messages and to
accept with seriousness what I am saying. But you, I therefore call
and ask that by your life and daily living that you witness my presence.
If you pray, God will help you discover the true reasons for my coming.
Therefore, little children, pray and read the Sacred Scriptures so that
through my coming, you discover the message in Sacred Scripture for you.
Thank you for having responded to my call."
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