From: sutherland+@osu.edu (Scott Sutherland)
Subject: Re: Dance Notatation (LONG)
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts,rec.arts.dance,rec.folk-dancing
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Dance
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:58:07 GMT

Finally, a thread on this group that I can really sink my teeth into! :-)

First, a word of introduction.  I am a software engineer working for the
Department of Dance at the Ohio State University.  My background is in 
Computer Science, but after 5 years working in dance I consider myself
more of a dance person who happens to also be a programmer.

My main job over the years has been to work with our Dance Notation Bureau
Extension for Education and Research and the Dance Notation Bureau in NYC 
to develop a Mac-based Labanotation editor called "LabanWriter" (more about

that some other time).

A few years ago, I had the same questions and misconceptions concerning
notation and Labanotation that seem to be quite widespread on
this group (and in the dance community).  To be honest, I'm not sure that
the 
importance of notation is really evident to someone who has not worked with
it
at some length (like more than just for a course).  The advantages and
disadvantages of notation, especially compared to film/video, are not 
simple issues, and they have been debated rather hotly for many years.  The
only thing that is quite clear is that dance *really* needs (and does 
*not* currently have) a comprehensive choreographic record.  Few works are
recorded satisfactorily on paper or photographically, and even then these
records seldom find their way to people who can make use if them.

I won't pretend to have the final word on any of these issues, but 
perhaps I can straighten out a few things.  If I get up on my soapbox,
please take it in the spirit in which it was intended and not as a flame.
A am simply advocating a particular manner of preserving movement that is 
widely misunderstood.

Here's the article that started the ball rolling:

** From: esh6h@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Erik Scot Hatcher) **

> I'm a martial artist and I've looking to document some of
> my moves (forms,katas, etc).

> I've heard of a dance notation that is used to put the
> moves on paper.

> Anybody in net land know of this?  Can you-mail me or
> post to rec.martial-arts if you have any information on
> this.

And then the responses start rolling in:

** From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) **

>     Now that's an interesting concept.

Yes it is, in fact I just had a call this week from someone else who is 
interested in doing this.  Also, One of our faculty here has worked with a 
martial artist on a project of this sort.  A very interesting paper on 
notating parts of the hand came out of this... Oops, I'm getting ahead of 
John...

>       Labanotation can probably notate martial arts moves, although
> it's not well-suited for recording detailed hand actions.  (You could
> probably notate a wrist grip, but not tying a shoelace).  Contact the
> Dance Notation Bureau in New York City.  Books are available.

It is actually quite good at detailed hand actions.  How detailed do you
want to get?  LabanWriter has symbols already built in to deal with either
specific fingers (or particular surfaces of a finger), and even specific
joints of a particular finger.  We have a grad student here now working 
on notating Indian Classical Dance.  Try doing that without being able to
record detailed hand action.

One of the great things about Labanotation is that is a fairly open
system.  It already has *many* capabilities built in, but it is also 
being expanded all the time by people with different needs.  We even have 
a score here that was a collaborative effort between a notator and a 
zoologist.  It records the mating movements of a jumping spider.  The 
staff is a bit wider to accommodate 8 legs, but other than that, the 
score is quite straightforward.

The Dance Notation Bureau in NYC is indeed a good place to start.  I 
wouldn't try to learn notation from a book, however, unless you have no 
other choice.  It's a bit like trying to learn to dance from a book.  Not 
impossible, but very frustrating.  Workshops and courses are available.

>      There's a Mac program for writing Labanotation, developed at
> the DNB extension at Ohio State.

Thanks for the plug :-).  It is not only available but it is freeware.
Write me for details.

>      But actually, dance notation isn't used much.  Few dancers know it,
> and choreographers don't compose in it.  It's used to make a historical
> record of major dance works for later revival, and not much else.

Partially true.  It does not get used as much as it should.  It was never 
intended as a choreographer's tool, but it could be very helpful to a 
choreographer.  Every year, the percentage of literate dancers grows.  
Many universities are now requiring their students to study some form of 
notation, and in some states students as young as 5 or 6 are learning a 
specialized form of Labanotation  called "Motif" as they learn to dance.
What a concept!  The kids take to Motif as easily as they learn basic music
notation.  It's a lot harder to have to learn a notation system after you
have been dancing for years.

>      I once considered Labanotation as an input form for an animation
> system.  Terrible idea.

I don't know specifically what you wanted to do with it, but I know of 
several very interesting applications of Labanotation to computer graphics.
In fact, some of the earliest work with Labanotation on the computer was 
done in this area, and at least one rudimentary notation interpreter was
developed.  Far from being a terrible idea, there is enough interest here
at OSU in a project like this that we will probably end up doing some work
in this area.

Going on...
** From: klong@sura.net (K.A. Long) **

> Labanotation is used in many fields to document movement (synchronized
> swimming, gymnastics, ice skating, etc.).  I took a semester long
> course and only brushed the surface.  With the arm and hand movements
> that are so important in martial arts (even down to the fingers) I
> imagine it would take an experienced Notator to do what you are asking.
> There is a Mac based program that would make it easier to document but
> you have to know what it all means, first.

Right.  The basics of Labanotation can be learned very quickly, and 
learning to read is much easier than learning to write (well).  Here at 
OSU, the notation sequence is three quarters and some students go on for 
further training after that.  Often, the best bet *is* to work with a 
notator to ensure a good quality score.


** From: sutin@phaeton.UCSC.EDU (Brian Sutin)  **

> Several others have mentioned Labanotation.  This is no longer used in
> folkdance to any extent, as far as I know.  It has been replaced with
> a new system, which closely resembles musical notation.  

Not true, as far as I know.  In fact, a Hungarian 
folk dancer/notator/programmer named Janos Fugedi has developed (DOS)
software
that is Labanotation based and is particularly good at searching for 
specific movement phrases and reoccurring themes (try doing *that* with 
video).  Last I knew, it was not yet commercially available but it may be 
soon.

I am not aware of any other notation system having "replaced" Labanotation,
but we don't do a lot of folk dance here and so I can not say for sure.

> I have heard
> about this system but not seen it.  From hearsay I have heard that it is
> rather intuitive (Labanotation is terrible) and one can actually figure
> out a dance months later from this stuff with comments like "He really
> did turn his head 3/4 while pointing the left foot inwards!" The
> "musical notes" resemble stick figures of people in some way, I believe.
> I will try to remember to ask for more info.

I would like to hear more about this system.  I am afraid I have to 
disagree with Brian about the intuitiveness of Labanotation.  If I can 
learn it, it *must* be fairly intuitive :-).  The right side of the staff
deals with the right side of the body, and the left side, the left.  There
is a basic set of direction symbols, whose length shows timing, and there 
are symbols to represent various parts of the body to show what part is 
being moved.  Simple.  In all fairness, there are aspects of it that can be
a bit frustrating, a system as comprehensive as Labanotation is bound to 
have it's share of obscure symbols, but in general it is quite pictorial
and 
straightforward.  And if full-fledged Labanotation is more than you want,
Motif can be an excellent choice.  It is particularly good where you want 
the reader to have a fair degree of latitude for interpretation.

Bye the way, Labanotated works also are quite decipherable months (or
years) later.  A couple of years ago, I was in Hong Kong speaking at a 
conference and I had the pleasure of seeing Doris Humphrey's "With My Red 
Fires," which had been reconstructed from the score that was written 
*twenty years* earlier.  It was really great.  Since I was sitting with 
the person who had notated it all those years before, it was nice to hear
from her that it was danced very much as it had been then.


And now we really opened a can of worms...

** From: seibl@Q.nas.nasa.gov (Michael J. Seibl) **

> |> I'm a martial artist and I've looking to document some of
> |> my moves (forms,katas, etc).
> |>
> Can you say "videotape"?:L)

I'll hold my tongue for now, because later, Michael also writes:

> Hoping to head off a flame war, rest assured that there was no disrespect 
> intended. I assumed that the recording of your techniques, katas, whathave 
> yous, was for your own personal or someone who has your understanding of your 
> art's perusal. I did not realize that you wanted to be able to tell a 
> neophyte how to completely understand everything that you recorded.

> Please understand that there are people who can get everything from looking 
> at a videotape of stuff they alreadu understand.

He is absolutely right.  There are many good uses for video, and 
recording one's own work for later use by that *same* person is one of 
them.  Unfortunately, there are drawbacks to this.  Imagine doing this for
several years.  Even assuming you never want anyone else to use the tapes,
you could end up with one hell of a lot of tapes.  We have experienced a 
very good example of this type of problem.  We (OSU) were fortunate enough
to 
be given Twyla Tharp's archives to preserve and organize.  She has used 
video very well - much better than most choreographers.  There are 
literally *thousands* of hours of tape!  It will take us an enormous amount
of time and work just to catalog it!  Then, in my opinion, that amount of
video is still unwieldy to use.  It will take having a large portion of 
it available on line in a hypermedia database before it is really 
accessible, and who knows if that will ever be done.

Before dealing with the rest of the problems with video, let me include 
an excellent rebuttal:

** From: nmrdb@vms.macc.wisc.edu (BEVERLY SEAVEY)

> I'm a serious dancer and I can say "videotape" just fine, and I  do videotape
> a lot, but there is a lot that you can't see on videotape. Subtle torso 
> and shoulder moves, what labonotation calls energy level,... I don't
> consider a dance properly recorded until I have written a lot of notes. And
> until you force yourself to sit down and notate a dance you don't understand
> it. Videotaping is like photocopying an article so you don't have to read it.

Even though we have several competent notators on our faculty, we also use 
video often.  There are many things it does well, and I don't think that 
a work is completely preserved until it has been taped or filmed as well as
notated.  Twenty years down the road however, I would not like to try to
reconstruct or seriously study a work with video as my only source of 
information.  It sounds just great...until you try it.  Here are a few of 
my main gripes with video:

- Often, the video of a piece is shot during a dress rehearsal or a 
performance.  Anyone who has tried this knows that the lighting that works
well for the audience usually does *not* work so well for the camera.  
One solution to this is to have a rehearsal or performance that is 
specifically for taping the piece, and to hire a professional to work the 
camera.  Unfortunately, this costs time and money and is not usually done.
Consequently, most of the video records of dance are lousy.

- Even if the video is good, however, it is still backward.  The camera
usually has an audience's view of the piece, so to learn the movement 
from the tape, a dancer must flip everything left-to-right.  Try this 
sometime - it is a *real* pain in the ass.

- Then there is the point that Beverly raised that there is a lot you just
can't see in the tape.  Unless you go to the trouble and expense of 
filming each dancer individually from several angles (also rarely done),
the camera has a single vantage point at any given time.  Thus, anything 
(like a hand gesture, for instance) that is behind the dancer is not 
visible.  Also, in group pieces you have the added problem of one member
of the group obscuring another.  Lastly, the more subtle the gesture,
the more likely it is not to be evident on tape.  Very quick movement is
also usually not clear.  Try learning Tap dance from tape alone.  If you 
slow down the tape, things are just blurry, and you throw off your
sense of the rhythm.  Things are *much* more clear in the notation
(although
there are probably better choices than Labanotation here).

- Lastly, and perhaps most seriously, is the only problem that can't be 
overcome with lots of money and time.  Since no dancer is a robot, each 
brings her own movement style and idiosyncrasies to the performance.
Not to mention that in every given performance there is always something
done (at least) slightly wring - that is to say, *not* as the choreographer

intended it.  Who is to say by looking at the tape what was part of the
choreographer's intent and what was brought to the dance by the dancer?
The video records just a specific performance, not the ideal.  At the 
very least, you would need lots of written notes to go with the video and
answer questions like motivation and other movement qualities.  Better to
use a tool that was designed for the job.

If you were a musician trying to learn to play your part in an orchestral 
work, you would certainly be interested in how the piece was played by
orchestra X, but you would not sit down with your cello and the CD and
learn it from the recording.  You would want to see the score!  

OK, I'll get down off my soapbox.  Most of the rest of the postings dealt 
with issues that I've already discussed.  Notation (and particularly 
Labanotation) is certainly *not* the answer for every situation, but I 
believe it to be a very important tool among many for preserving a very 
diverse art form.  Like many other powerful tools, Labanotation requires
a certain amount of study to be able to use effectively.  If you feel 
it is the right tool for recording the movement in which you are 
interested, find a book (preferably a recent one, like John Nagle pointed 
out, the older ones can be a bit dry), or better yet take a workshop or a 
course.  It is a *very* interesting field of study.


One last thought about preserving dance:

Ideally, I would like to see many different media brought together 
electronically in a well-thought-out hypermedia format.  
That way, one would have not just the video(s), but the dance and music
scores,
the music recording, photos, lighting diagrams, sketches, MIDI, and more to
study and reference.  Several such systems are currently somewhere between
conception and use.  Since this is a particular interest of mine, I would 
love to start a discussion about this to see what great ideas all of 
you have.


---
Scott Sutherland                                         
sutherland+@osu.edu
Dance Technology & Macintosh Software Development         614/292-7977
The Ohio State University, Department of Dance