From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Re: Glock doesn't *need* a safety (Re: .40 S&W Help Sought)
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:19:07 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) / 11:01 pm  Oct 10, 1992 /

#In article <13400046@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
##...  Certainly all the experts I've read agree
##that five lbs is an absolute minimum, and that for anybody who does not
##undergo constant recurrent training, it is too little.
#
#Generally when an "expert" mentions a "5-pound trigger pull", he
#has in mind the RELEASE FORCE as in a cocked M1911A1, where 5 pounds
#would indeed be hard to control well under high stress, but all that
#should mean is a slight decrease in accuracy of shot placement.

When they are referring to auto's, yes.  But what the experts I've
talked to are really recommending 'long heavy' trigger pulls.  My
experts in this case are Mas Ayoob John Farnum, and Marty Hayes.

Most of these individuals will recommend a revolver for the novice, for
just this reason, although Farnum prefers the Smith DAO's.

Ayoob recommends the 'heavy' New York trigger if you use a Glock.

If you show up at class with less than 5-6 lbs pull, you will not be
allowed to use that gun.  I've watch both Farnum and Ayoob remove such
firearms from the line.

As for a long heavy trigger pull affecting accuracy, you should watch a
distinguished PPC match sometime.  These are mostly stock Smith
revolvers.  They don't have to be Smith, but they do have to be stock.
On a standard B-27 target at up to 50 yards these guys are shooting
mostly x's and 10's, double action.  It has taken me 'only' a year to
(nearly) reach that level of proficiency.  I recently took fourth in our
clubs plate match with a standard Smith model 14.  I have an aim-pointed
2.75 lb pull auto that I could have used.  Of the three that beat me,
one placed 11'th in the national IPSC stock class, another, NRA National
Gold medal winner in standard pistol.  Two of the two of the three that
beat me used revolvers too.

For games such as IPSC, you might want a lighter trigger pull, but that
is more for speed than accuracy.  For a defense gun, I don't consider
10-15 lbs (yes, I sometimes carry 'shudder' an old fashioned revolver) a
handicap.  If the attackers are more than 25-50 yards away, I'm probably
in no danger from them anyway.

If (the rhetorical) you think short light triggers are a must for all
but the nth degree of accuracy, you haven't learned proper trigger
control yet.

#Ideally, in SA mode the trigger TRAVEL before release would be
#practically zero distance.  The Glock trigger pull is CONSIDERABLY

Sounds like a description of a Bullseye gun --- the nth degree of
accuracy.

#different in feel and operation, requiring unlocking pressure of the
#finger, then a relatively light force applied over a distance of more
#than a quarter of an inch (not "short" by my standards) to cock the
#striker, and finally an increased pressure over a small distance
#(several mils) to release the striker.

More my idea of a defense gun, true.  Trouble with the Glock is that a
lot of people tend to take up the slack.  You don't do that with a DAO
for example, but many are tempted to do that on the Glock.  Again, it's
a training issue.

#It's hard to see how either the M1911A1 or the Glock trigger pulls
#(assume set to around the same release force, e.g. 5 pounds) could
#reasonably be considered to contribute to accidental discharges,

Short (relatively) light pull.  It DOES cause accidents.  In a perfect
world it would make no difference, but people often forget much of what
they know under stress.  You can argue that they SHOULDN'T, but you
can't ignore the fact that they nevertheless DO!  You can't argue with a
trigger that does it's job, pull it an gun goes bang.  On the other
hand, you need to allow for the human element.

#Any accidental discharge due to excessive finger pressure on the
#trigger should be blamed appropriately, on the violation of a
#cardinal rule of firearm safety, not on the design of the trigger
#pull.  Anyone who puts his finger on the trigger of a firearm but
#is not in the process of intentionally pulling the trigger should
#have his gun taken away from him until he learns how to handle it
#safely; he's a menace to society.

Well, you'd probably eliminate every 'firearms expert' around.  As
Farnum once noted, there are experts who have had AD's at home, and
there are liars.....  He wasn't leaving himself out.  I don't think
Ayoob, Chapman, Cooper, or any of the other 'biggies' have contradicted
this statement, and they have had enough opportunities.

As at least one expert noted, if you ever do have occasion to hold a bad
guy at gun point, you probably DO want your finger on the trigger.
Criminals have to respect and fear you if you are going to control a
situation by intimidation, and if you (in their opinion) haven't the
guts to even put your finger on the trigger, you are in for trouble.  It
would be a shame to have to shoot because you couldn't intimidate them,
or worse accidently shoot them in the process of trying to intimidate
them.

Rick.