From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
Subject: Why improve ourselves ? (utopianism, and Why?)
Date: 22 DEC 92 09:12:53
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: DWOVAX
Summary: Further explanation and elaboration (long)


re: 'lighten up'

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to whine at anyone or put down 
the hedonistic lifestyle; I support it in fact, deep down.

But these deeper issues, discussed and resolved by some people, are what have 
provided us the disposable income and disposable leisure time to play and to
worry about our bench press and our pimples instead of having to
slave in a factory or starve in a crowded african nation.  

My goal is the same as 'yours,' a world where we all have time to play
and enjoy our lives, but I'd really like my kids and their grandkids
to have the same opportunities, and lately I'm concerned about that,
and I'd like to 'self-improve' to the point where I can do something
positive about it, so I'm asking for help.

radinsky@spot.Colorado.EDU (Wayne Radinsky) writes...
>stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
T>> Is technical utopianism justified today ?    Are we living in an age
T>> when some great scientific revolution into a post-modern world
T>> is going to save us ?
> 
W>Social problems are much harder to solve than scientific problems, and so
W>scientists hide in labs and worry about the scientific ones.

Even if this were true, and there were no such thing as social sciences
like sociology and anthropology whose 'laboratory' was culture and human
society, we still haven't answered the problem of what it takes to better
ourselves to the point where we can solve the problems.  Is it knowledge ?
Is it spirit ?  Is it a divine miracle ?  Do we just let the Tao 
carry us where it will and deal with our own lives ?  I know there are
multiple supportable viewpoints.  I'm just posing the question.

>Reminds me of H.G. Wells, the science-fiction writer, who championed
>science and technology his whole life and became disillusioned and
>depressed at the end of it.

Another good example.  Is the world closer to utopia or dystopia than it
was in Wells' day (he was depressed over the world war, apparently).
Do we know the answer to that for sure ?   

>> Do folks think utopian ideals are justified ... on scientific grounds ?
> 
>Utopian ideals are justified, but not on scientific grounds.
> 
>Utopian ideals are justified because we must have something to strive for,
>or our lives are meaningless.

Ok, so what are the ideals that lead us in the right direction to improve
ourselves toward continued survival and maybe even a world where our
great grandchildren can have the luxury of worrying about their bench
press and have the luxury to tell people to piss off and stop depressing
them in a public electronic newsgroup ?  _We_'re still doing 'ok', and
doubtless the economy will improve in cycles as usual, but doesn't
the increasing poverty, population, homelessness, joblessness
that doesn't go away when the economy improves enter into our
self-improvement programs as well ?

>Maybe on spiritual grounds -- who is Marilyn Ferguson (the name sounds
>familiar)?

One of the most widely read and influential spokespersons for the 'New Age'
mentality, roughly did with The_Aquarian_Conspiracy_ what Alvin Toffler did 
with Future_Shock.   For the most part, a 'spiritual utopian' movement
aimed at 'spiritual self-improvement.'  Often superficial and specious,
sometimes linked to truly profound themes.  Probably most influential
in the U.S..

>> Is 'self-improvement' a self-indulgent activity or will it lead to 
>> our salvation or survival?
> 
>You must heal yourself before you can heal others!

I accept that viewpoint, given an appropriately vague notion of healing.
Given a narrow enough notion of 'healing,' couldn't someone justify
self-indulgence forever on this basis ?

Go away for another hundred years, I'm still healing myself first !

Somewhat analagous to the issue in engineering of spending years to
design something right, and never getting to actually implement it before
the technology changes and the whole project becomes obsolete, knwo what I
mean ?

>> I was raised and trained a techno-utopian, but I have
>> second thoughts today.
> 
>(We can tell you work for Digital, but) could you elaborate??

Wayne, I entered my industry at a time when it looked like computers were going
to be on the forefront of helping us preserve our affluent lifestyle
and eventually spread it around the world and provide a 'Star Trek'
future.  

With the 'deconstruction' of the computer industry, and unprecedented
changes in big companies like mine (DEC) and like IBM, I'm more concerned
than ever that there is something radical missing from the equation that
I never counted on.   This isn't a question of 'personal meaning,' it's a
question of being aware that life shouldn't have to end in a few
generations just because I couldn't figure out a way to prevent it,
that there must be a way to raise myself up to be able to help.
> 
>--Wayne, the anxious puppy

					kind regards,

					todd
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| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com           |
| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273           |
| Philadelphia, Pa. USA                                                       |
|  "I'm in a hurry, I don't know why.  All I really gotta do is live and die" |
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