From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Stereotyping
Date: 13 Aug 92 09:53:42 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

In article <11727@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> In article <193135@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov>, pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew) writes:
>> 
>> No, Clayton, we don't "all know" that homosexuals are "severely damaged
>> people".  All you are proving is that *you* are a severely damaged person.
>> Get help, Clayton; you need psychological counselling badly.
> 
> I can see the conversation: "I know a group of people march in 
> parades where they wear the most outrageous outfits, things that 
> offend the vast majority of Americans.  They spend much of their 
> time complaining about the unfairness of a society that doesn't 
> approve of these outrageous displays that they put on in public.

Let me see, by some counts, the number of homosexuals in the United States
are between 3% and 13% of the population.  Let's assume a rather conserva-
tive 5% which means more than 10 million homosexuals.

Now how many people march in these various parades?  Certainly, it can be
numbered in the thousands, at most.  Are these people representative of the
10 million?  Not by any stretch of the imagination.

By most accounts, the gay pride parades are not so much a formal parade as
an excuse to party.  The behavior in those parades is certainly no worse
than I've seen at some typical fraternity parties in college.

By the way, are you basing your opinion on the parades based on what shows
up on the evening news?  If so, then you're getting a distorted picture of
what takes place along the parade route.  Or didn't you realize that the
photographers love to show the most outrageous things they can?

As far as outrageous outfits, when was the last time you went to a punk
rock or rap concert?  What about the "rage" parties (did I get the term
right)?  If you see the way people dress as signs of mental illness, then
you have some learning to do.

As to your last sentence, that's the most laughable.  Since you have never
attended a gay pride parade, how the hell do you know what people are
saying?  According to what I've heard, they spend very little time at these
parades talking about straights.  Outside of the parade, they don't talk
about lack of society's approval per se, but rather this lack of approval
manifesting itself in discrimination, gay bashing, violence, and even given
force of law.  Discussing these topics is far from evidence of mental illness.

> "They complain about our society stereotyping them as sadomasochists, 
> effeminate cross-dressers, and child molesters, in spite of the 
> gay parades in which groups like Dykes on Bikes participate, men 
> dress up in drag, men dress up in S&M attire, and groups such as 
> the North American Man-Boy Love Association are welcome.

And there are heterosexual sadomasochists, heterosexual cross-dressers,
and heterosexual child molesters.  So?  Have you ever been to a biker
convention?  Would you claim that these people are representative of
all people who ride motorcycles?  Or are representative of all heterosexuals?
As far as society stereotyping them, well isn't that exactly what you've
done?

> "They complain about our society stereotyping them as sex obssessed,
> but many of their discussions in a public forum revolve around 
> pornographic movie 'stars' and casual sex with strangers.

Ah, I see, those few hundred people who post to soc.motss are necessarily
representative of the 10 million homosexuals out there.  Thanks for clari-
fying that.  Now tell me, if I read ca.politics, what does that tell me
about California politics and political life?  Nothing?  Thank you.

And what about the large number of postings to soc.motss that don't discuss
sex with strangers?  Or pornographic movies?  Have you read the .sex groups
recently, Clayton?  Hasn't it occurred to you that soc.motss has a number
of purposes?  There is no specific .sex group for homosexuals, so the people
who post to soc.motss use it for postings about sex, political issues,
"coming out" issues, etc.  Why don't you try thinking for a change?

> "They insist that they don't support molestation, and yet a large
> fraction of the group will engage in semantic games to show that 
> adults having sex with kids as young as eight isn't 'molestation' 
> but 'love.'

Interestingly, in all of the public debates I've seen with you, *you* are
the one who keeps tossing ages like "eight" and "three" around.  The others,
including Jeff Dauber, talk about adolescents who have gone through puberty.
You, of course, refuse to even discuss the issue in any rational manner,
resorting instead to the "child molesters" straw man.

> "They whine about AIDS, and yet, continue to justify the 
> promiscuous sexuality that caused AIDS to spread so rapidly through 
> their population, claiming that condoms will solve all problems.

According to what I've read, using condoms properly significantly reduces
the chance of catching any STD.  The gay community understands this and have
sent out a message that, "if you're going to have sex, use condoms".  Our
government and many private groups have sent out the same message.  Do you
have a problem with this?

By the way, do you have any evidence that the gay population is more pro-
miscuous than the straight population?  From what I've seen at local bars
around here, there is any amount of promiscuity still prevalent in the
heterosexual community.  More so, I suspect, than in the gay community,
because the risk of AIDS is so much less.  My roommate, for example, would
hardly be considered an example of celibacy in action.

> "In spite of massive public education efforts aimed at the general
> population, and this group, unsafe sex practices remain a major
> problem, even though the consequences are a painful and long
> drawn-out death.

Statistics, Clayton, facts, percentages, evidence...remember those?  Those
massive public education efforts didn't gear up until the mid-1980's from
what I remember.  Certainly, in the Midwest where I lived at the time, that
knowledge was not being trumpeted.  There are still parts of this country
without sex education and where nothing is being said.  According to what
I've heard unsafe sex practice in the gay community has dropped considerably.
If you have evidence to the contrary, please let us know.

> "Why do I perceive this group as being pretty screwed up?"

Because you're looking at it through glasses that have been heavily covered
with your agenda and are ignoring all evidence that contradicts your pet
theories.  Instead, you insist on spreading lies, stereotypes, and hatred
about this group.  Now you know why we perceive you as being pretty screwed up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: ca.politics