HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Nikon Camera and Lenses for Sale
From: krschimm@wsuhub.uc.twsu.edu (Karl Schimmel)
Date: 8 Nov 92 11:11:24 CST
Organization: Wichita State University, Wichita, Ks

FFFFFF               SSS
F                   S   S
F                    S
FFFF   oo    ooo      S      aa   ll    eee
F     o	 o  o          S    a  a  ll   eeee
F     o  o  o       S   S   a  a  ll   e
F      oo   o        SSS     aaa  ll    eee

Nikon Nikkormat FTN (1974 vintage) sn#FT4125742
      Features: Totally Mechanical (except meter)
		1-1/1000 sec shutter speeds
		bulb setting
		ASA 12-1600
		self timer
		mirro lockup
		depth of field preview
		top view meter window
		shutter speed and meter info in view finder
		pc port
	50mm Nikkor-H F/2 lens sn#2104781 (must be purchased w/camera)

			$175 for Nikkormat and lens


Rokinon F mount (Nikon mount) AI Lenses

    $40		28mm F/2.8 sn#AI93501593
			filter size 49mm

    $70		80-200 ZOOM F/4.5 sn#8314234
			filter size 55mm
			1:4 Macro (available full range of zoom)


I would  like to sell BOTH lenses together in which case I would pay for
shipping.  Feel free to make an offer on any of above (please remember
FTN and 50mm must go together)

Thanks,
Karl Schimmel
From: littlec1@jaguar.uofs.edu (Chris Little)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Advice needed on camera purchase
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:20:38 GMT
Organization: University of Scranton


Looking for advice on purchasing a decent camera in the $250-$300 range.
We're not photographers, but would like to learn to develop some
appreciation for photography.  So the camera would have to aid us but
at the same time allow us some input when we know more.  In other words,
not a camera that does everything and not a camera that takes 10
minutes to prepare before each shot.

Please send advice directly via e-mail.  Thanks in advance.

--
Chris Little, Programmer/DBA                    University Computing Systems
                                                University of Scranton
  LITTLEC1@JAGUAR.UOFS.EDU                      Scranton, PA 18510
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Lunar magnification
From: lacroix@heron.bellcore.com (Michel Lacroix)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 22:52:31 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Morristown Research and Engineering


         Why does the sun/moon appear larger when it is closer to the horizon?
         
It is a visual illusion.  Your visual system (brain) routinely blows up
distant objects (size preservation).  The moon illusion apparently
results from a combination of this size preservation mechanism and a
subjective perception of the sky as being a flattened hull rather than
an hemisphere.  The horizon seems to be further away than the zenith,
hence a bigger moon when it is close to the horizon.

There was a paper, "The Moon Illusion" (?) in Sc. Am., probably at the
end of the 60's.  Could someone post the exact reference?

Michel Lacroix
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: klein@nadia.stgt.sub.org (Alexander Klein)
Subject: Rollei 35 Classic for Sale
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:29:55 GMT
Organization: Stuttgart Net Systems, FRG


Hi!

I've a MINT Rollie 35 Classic Camera with flash and leather everready case
for sale. It's beautiful, like new, titanium-covered, with two gold-colored
knobs - just looking gorgeous.

It's something for a collector or someone who loves mechanical cameras
with great lenses (Sonnar).

If you're interested, send a note by E-Mail stating the price you're 
willing to pay.

Alexander Klein
Stuttgart, Germany
<klein@nadia.stgt.sub.org>
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Alexander Klein | Editor, 3D-MAGAZIN     E-Mail: klein@nadia.stgt.sub.org |
|   ___   ____    | Tannenbergstrasse 36   CompuServe/CIS-Mail: 100041,212  |
|  /   \   |  \   | D-7000 Stuttgart 50    GEnie: A.KLEIN9                  |
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui)
Subject: Re: Chasseur d'Images lens test folders info.
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 17:35:31 GMT

In article <SM.92Nov5105909@suns2.cel.co.uk> sm@cel.co.uk (salim mehta) writes:
>In article <1992Nov4.230011.13604@clark.edu> gsnow@clark.edu (Gary Snow) wrote:
>> 2. Do you really have to word your FAX to them in French?
>You probably don't *have* to, but it's more polite!
And it would be a real hoot if you got it wrong!   :->
From: elau@berlioz.nsc.com (Eugene Lau)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: slow sync and red eye on Canon EOS 100 (Elan)
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:25:51 GMT
Organization: National Semiconductor Corporation

In article <1992Nov5.092944.16891@runx.oz.au> milica@runx.oz.au (Milan Durovic) writes:
>
>   ... I wanted to combine flash with longer exposures to include more of 
>an attractive background  ...
>
>- turn the command dial in the manual mode, pop-up the flash manually, set the
>  longer exposure and take the picure. Slow-sync works fine, and the
>  foreground and background have a good light balance. If you have people in
>  the scene, they'll all have beautiful red eyes, which may suit only
>  Halloween.
>
>- turn the command dial in the programmed picture modes. Now I am able to 
>  turn on the red-eye reduction lamp (which was impossible in the previous
>  case) and have the exposure fixed to either 1/60 or 1/125, meaning bye-bye
>  to the attractive background.
>
>Milan

you should be able to use red-eye reduction in any mode, as long as the flash
is NOT set to 2nd curtain sync.  for slow sync and red-eye reduction you
can use aperture/shutter priority or manual modes.

the red-eye reduction feature may not eliminate red eye altogether, it only
"reduces" red eye, so try using a faster film if you don't need big 
enlargements.

eugene
From: mikem@ex.heurikon.com (Mike Mayer)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: wooden tripods
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:13:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: heurikon.1861
Reply-To: mikem@ex.heurikon.com (Mike Mayer)
Organization: Heurikon Corporation, Madison, WI

In article <180600007@hpcndaw.CND.HP.COM> antonsen@hpcndaw.CND.HP.COM (Tim Antonsen) writes:
#I highly recommend a good wood tripod for flexibility and durability. 
#
#I've owned a wooden Zone VI tripod (the "lightweight") since 1979, which I use
#with my wooden field view. They complement my wooden head.
#
I have one too.  It's bulky and heavy, but I've carried it all over
several state parks in the area.  The only times I've had problems
are when I need to get the camera close to the ground.  The legs are
about three feet long when fully collapsed, and in uneven terrain they
get in the way when they are laid out flat.  Otherwise it's great.

--
Mike Mayer                                             mikem@heurikon.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: gsgi_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Greg Gibson)
Subject: Where to buy cheap Ektar in bulk?
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 08:25:07 GMT

I'm going on a trip.  I need like 20 rolls of Ektar 25
and 10 rolls of Ektar 1000.  Anybody know of a place
to buy it at a reasonable cost?

I appreciate the time it takes to reply!

-Greg Gibson

Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: yz3k@galen.med.virginia.edu
Subject: Re:FOR SALE: Canon EF 35-135mm Ultrasonic lens
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 02:08:03 GMT

In article <If0fSSe00WA1A53lgG@andrew.cmu.edu>  writes:
> FOR SALE:
> 
> Canon 28-80 f3.5-4.5 USM EF lens for EOS cameras
> Mint condition with all original packaging and box. 
> Blank warranty cards.
> 
> $275 including shipping in USA.
> 
> Please respond by e-mail to gd1a+@andrew.cmu.edu
When did Canon come out with a 28-80 f3.5-4.5. I only heard of the 28-80  
f3.5-5.6 (just got one recently).
yz
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: bob@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com (Bob Easton)
Subject: Re: Tamron 35-105 f2.8
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 13:03:59 GMT
Organization: the HP UK Response Centre
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Christian Bauer (bauer@informatik.uni-ulm.de) wrote:
: Have such a lense on my Contax 167. Quality compared to the Nikon 35-105
: is better. compared to a Zeiss 28-80 is a little bit less. But the point
: is the 2.8 in contrary to other manufacturers. 
: 
Christian,

Does the Tamron mount give you the program modes on your Contax, or just
Av and Manual? The reason I ask is because Tamron mounts for Contax
MM-fit aren't available in the UK, but they seem to be on sale in the
US. What's the situation in your country?

Bob
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: sfysh@epas.utoronto.ca (Stephanie Moskal Fysh)
Subject: Where to get film developed in Toronto?
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Distribution: ca
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 21:21:04 GMT

I'm fairly new at photography.  I'd be interested in knowing where
people find is good (and perhaps even inexpensive) for getting film
developed in Toronto, especially colour and b&w prints.  I live in
Parkdale in the West End.

Stephanie Fysh
(sfysh@epas.utoronto.ca)

Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au
Subject: Re: Old & New Canon mix & match ?
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:00:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.002045.107974@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>, sh09@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (STEVEN HIGGINS) writes:
> In article <1d8ullINN4ob@castor.hahnemann.edu>, weinhous@castor.hahnemann.edu (M
> artin S. Weinhous Ph.D.) writes:
...
>     of manual lenses.  The Canon Macro lens mount converter probably works ok
>     with their macro lenses, something like a short extension tube.  With
>     regular FD lenses, you couldn't reach infinity focus.  Just a slight
>     inconvenience   :-)
> 
 No, with the macro adapter you can't stop the lens down...

~Paul
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: light damage
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:02:15 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

benham@liebnitz.ssd.kodak.com (Todd D. Benham) wrote:
> My mother recently came back from a vacation trip to Graceland, TN.
> Of course, she toured the Elvis Presley estate.  The tour allowed as many
> pictures as you like as long as you do not use flash (except in certain
> rooms, apparently).  The reason they gave was that the huge number of
> tourist camera flashes will, over time, do some kind of damage to the
> displayed items (various items of Elvis' from clothes to cars to jewelry).
> My questions are:
>   Can anyone confirm that flashes can cause damage? (or are they
>   just being paranoid?:)
>   How many flashes would it take to do any significant damage?
>   What item are subject to damage by light?

I suspect this is one of those precautions that once had a rational basis
and has been kept going by force of habit and bogus ex-post-facto
rationalizations for a couple of decades.  The loopiest example I've come
across was at the Kariye Museum in Istanbul, where they impose this
restriction on photographing the Byzantine frescoes with flash despite the
fact that they are exposed to indirect sunlight through unglazed windows
(they do permit flash pictures of the mosaics).  No way could a few hundred
camera flashes a day produce as much radiation anywhere in the EM spectrum
as centuries of sunlight.

The one-time-rational basis: the only way to take flash pictures until the
50s was with bulbs.  These would frequently explode in a shower of glass
shrapnel.  This is not something you want to happen in the vicinity of a
precious relic, be it of Elvis or ancient Byzantium.

For some places, an unstated extra motivation is for the people running the
place to sell their own slides.  To their credit, this one doesn't seem to
apply at the Kariye, or, from what you say, at the Elvis museum.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: news@walter.bellcore.com
Subject: Re: Advice on Canon 50 mm/f1.8 wanted
Keywords: Canon
Reply-To: jchen@wind.bellcore.com (Jason Chen)
Organization: Bellcore, Morristown, NJ
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 16:54:50 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.160234.23567@kth.se> d90-nsc@nada.kth.se (Niclas Schopenhauer) writes:
>
>
>   I am considering buying a 50 mm lens for my Canon 100 (Elan in the US, I
>believe). However, since the only 50 mm lens by Canon on the market (not counting
>the 50/f1.0) belongs to the II series which, I am told, have bad optical quality,
>I'm considering buying a second-hand copy of the old 50 mm f/1.8.
>

EF 50/f1.8 II is NOT bad optically. I have used one for a few months now.
The shots I took came out crisp and sharp, even in low light conditions.

I also did a resolution test on this lens. The resolution is excellent
(100 l/mm @f8) except when wide open (56 l/mm @f1.8).

It looks cheap with all plastic body, and may not sustain hardship.
But its optics is very good, and it is extremely affordable.


Jason Chen
From: jimc@tau-ceti.isc-br.com (Jim Cathey)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Advice on Canon 50 mm/f1.8 wanted
Keywords: Canon
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:49:09 GMT
Organization: ISC - Bunker Ramo, Spokane, WA

>In article <1992Nov11.160234.23567@kth.se> d90-nsc@nada.kth.se (Niclas Schopenhauer) writes:
>   I am considering buying a 50 mm lens for my Canon 100 (Elan in the US, I
>believe). However, since the only 50 mm lens by Canon on the market (not counting
>the 50/f1.0) belongs to the II series which, I am told, have bad optical quality,
>I'm considering buying a second-hand copy of the old 50 mm f/1.8.

Optically, the new one and the old one are supposed to be the same. 
Mechanically, the new one is a lightweight all-plastic mount, minus the
focusing and DOF scales, and the IR mark.  Also, the teensy little front
focusing ring is always coupled, and is relatively hard to use.  It's
about half (?) the weight of the old lens.  Basically a throwback to the
bad old days of AF lenses. 

I'd get an old one myself (if I didn't already have one).  It has all the
scales, and the easy-to-use MF ring is decoupled from the works when you
throw the switch.  When I bought into Canon, they had the nicest MF of
any of the AF line.  Nice to see they're going backwards!  :-(




-- 
+----------------+
! II      CCCCCC !  Jim Cathey
! II  SSSSCC     !  ISC-Bunker Ramo
! II      CC     !  TAF-C8;  Spokane, WA  99220
! IISSSS  CC     !  UUCP: uunet!isc-br!jimc (jimc@isc-br.isc-br.com)
! II      CCCCCC !  (509) 927-5757
+----------------+
			One Design to rule them all; one Design to find them.
			One Design to bring them all and in the darkness bind
			them.  In the land of Clone-war where the PC's lie.
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: D98O@BR1.HRZ.TH-DARMSTADT.DE (Jochen Fuehrer)
Subject: Re: photomanipulation
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:53:55 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
Organization: TECHNICAL UNIVERSITY DARMSTADT, GERMANY


In <1992Nov11.204928.23850@adobe.com> usenet@adobe.com writes:

> | I am looking for specific examples of photographs that have been
> | manipulated and used as a picture of reality.
> 
> 				-Heather
> 
> The very best examples of this kind of work have probably passed
> right under our noses without being detected. People who alter
> photographic images in order to pass them off as *unaltered* do 
> not attach warning labels to their handiwork!
> 
> 				-Alan

I have seen a famous example in a foto magazine (don't remember which or
when). It shows Lenin and his men without Trotzki, but he actually was
on the original picture. They simply put another face over his. The fake
was in every soviet history book, the original picture also still exists
in western archieves. 
I just remember, it was in Popular Photography around 12/91.
-- Jochen

> 
>
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: SLR body repair
From: fred-mckenzie@ksc.nasa.gov (Fred McKenzie)
Date: 10 Nov 92 09:20:38 EST
Followup-To: rec.photo
Distribution: na
Organization: NASA/Kennedy Space Center, Florida

In article <1992Nov9.204855.29065@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>,
wb@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (werner.baumgartner) wrote:
> For my first attempt at a repair job I picked up
> a damaged Mamiya 1000 DTL body for a few dollars.
> I am trying to remove the top plate and am stuck
> at the film advance lever. Could anyone tell me
> how to remove it from the shaft ? I see no set screw
> and suspect that the chrome ring on top of the lever
> should unscrew but it will not budge.

Werner-

A friend has a Mamiya NC1000(?), that none of the local repair shops will
touch.  They claim that parts are no longer available.  If that is true for
him, it is probably true for the 1000 DTL.  You may need to fabricate your
own repair parts, or get another body to canibalize!

I can think of two possible scenarios for the removal of the film advance
lever:

     1.  Check the top of the chrome ring.  Does it have a metal disk
fitted into a recess, possibly glued in place?  If so, it could be covering
a screwhead.  Alternatively, there could be a screw with a disguised plain
head, inset into the top of the chrome ring.

     2.  The chrome ring could be attached to a rod that is secured at the
bottom, inside the camera body.  If so, you should find a way to get to the
point where it is secured, either through the back or through the front. 
Through the front, it might be necessary to lift the mirror assembly to see
it.  But if mistaken, you could do damage to the assembly if you tried to
force it.  I would expect a "C" washer might be used at the bottom of the
shaft, to keep it from moving upwards.

Good Luck.

fred-mckenzie@ksc.nasa.gov
Xref: sparky rec.photo:19529 alt.cd-rom:4380
From: ezix@ucrengr.ucr.edu (edward j. zix)
Newsgroups: rec.photo,alt.cd-rom
Subject: Re: cd-rom burner info wanted
Keywords: CD-ROM
Date: 10 Nov 92 08:47:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.photo
Organization: University of California, Riverside


	Young Minds has a CD-ROM premastering solutions for UNIX. They
sell a product called CDStudio that works on lots of Unix platforms.  They
have software that will premaster data with RockRidge specifications and
it has a GUI that works on various X-Window platforms.
	They can be contacted at 
		Young Minds, Inc.
		1910 Orange Street Ave. 300
		Redlands, CA  92374
		PH 714-335-1350
		email: yngmnds!postmaster@ucrmath.ucr.edu

->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->
	    		Edward J. Zix
            		InterNet: ezix@ucrengr.ucr.edu
From: trevor@bcserv.wustl.edu (Creamer (Trevor))
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Canon EOS 20-35 lenses?
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:26:44 GMT
Organization: Washington University in Saint Louis, MO USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bcserv.wustl.edu

daveb@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Dave Boyd) writes:


>     I'm pretty sure this was discussed not too long ago, but I've only
>recently become interested in this lens, and the discussion is gone from
>our system.

>     In several mail order ads (Cambridge was one of them) I've seen two
>different 20-35 zoom lenses for Canon EOS cameras.  There's a 20-35 2.8L
>that sells for about $1000, and a 20-35 3.5 that sells for about $300.

Dave,
     Cambridge Camera (a place to be avoided - see the mail order survey
that's posted occaisionally here) has a habit of advertising "lenses FOR
Canon EOS". In other words, these may or may not be Canon lenses. The
20-35L is definitely Canon. The non-L lens I don't know about - it may
well be the Sigma version.
Cheers,
       Trevor

-- 
Trevor P. Creamer                  ,-_|\   Dept. of Biochemistry
Email  - trevor@grserv.wustl.edu  /     \  & Molecular Biophysics
Phone  - (314) 362 4105           *_,-._/  Washington University
Fax    - (314) 362 4115                v   St. Louis, Missouri 63110
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: mas@mipl8.jpl.nasa.gov (Marc Sarrel)
Subject: Re: Radio Shack rechargables
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:40:05 GMT


In article <1dvildINN4tn@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> tim@bcm.tmc.edu (Timothy Owen Lesniak) writes:


   The last time I was in RS, I noticed (and subsequently bought) their
   new two hour charger. They claim that the old batteries will work
   just as well as they did before with the new charger.  I'm just
   wondering if this claim is true or not.  I had always assumed that
   the quick-charge type of battery/charger combination had some special
   properties in the battery as well as the charger.

I have the same two hour charger, which I carry in my camera bag for
"emergencies".  I have the standard overnight charger at home.
Anyway, from my experience in the ham radio world, where NiCd
batteries are also a topic of hot discussion, I think that the quick
charger will work for any NiCd battery.  As far as I know, there needs
to be nothing special about the battery.  The quick charger just puts
more current through.

Just a caution for the general public out there, though:  the RS quick
charger in question assumes that the batteries are completely drained.
It, unlike some of the slow charge models, does not shut off when the
battery is fully charged.  It just runs through its 2 hour cycle,
regardless.  This can be dangerous if the battery isn't fully
discharged.  I don't know if this is an inherant property of quick
chargers or if the RS one is just brain-dead.

The slow chargers actually vary the rate of charge based on the charge
in the battery.  The good ones will "trickle charge".  That is, if the
batteries are left in for a long time, the charger will keep topping
them off as the charge slowly drains out by natural means.

Marc "feel like a need a recharge my own self" Sarrel
--
Marc Sarrel			"She's got a big boyfriend
Jet Propulsion Laboratory	 A really big boyfriend
mas@mipl8.jpl.nasa.gov		 He lifts weights, he builds cars
                                 And he's got no sense of humor
                                 She's got a big, really big
                                 Really, really, really big boyfriend"
                                                     -Blotto
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: kavka_mb@indtech.it.ilstu.edu (Mike Kavka)
Subject: PHOTO CD PLAYERS
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 01:37:06 EST
Reply-To: kavka_mb@indtech.it.ilstu.edu (Mike Kavka)
Organization: Illinois State University

A place up in chicago carries the Photo CD players by Kodak. Call them for price.
the name of the place is Norshore Camera (312)761-5555 ask for chuck. tell them mike told ya about it.


********************************************************************************Michael Kavka                               kavka_mb@indtech.it.ilstu.edu
The Phantom
********************************************************************************

   "Who's more foolish?
        The fool or the fool who follows him?"
From: mas@mipl8.jpl.nasa.gov (Marc Sarrel)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Light leak with long exposure
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:10:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: mipl8.MAS.92Nov9101048
Distribution: rec
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory


I own a relativly new (< 6 mo) 8008s.  I shot some landscapes
recently.  For some I used a 25A filter and was stopped down to f/22.
This gave me exposures up to 1/2sec or so, sometimes 1sec (and I
bracketed anyway).  I remembered to put the little eye-peice cap on
(at least most of the time), but I still got lots of light leak on the
edges of the film, towards the sprocket holes.

Has anyone else had this problem?  I plan to do a set of controlled
diagnostics as soon as I have the time and go out and buy another
eyepiece cap (damn thing is so small that I misplaced it).

One idea that I had is that light could be leaking in through the
backlight window for the viewfinder display.  Has anyone noticed this?

Is it possible that there is something wrong with my shutter?

advTHANKSance,
Marc
--
Marc Sarrel			"And they lived ever after, which is about
Jet Propulsion Laboratory	 all you can expect from a story like this."
mas@mipl8.jpl.nasa.gov		            --  Fractured Fairy Tales
Newsgroups: rec.photo