HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: romain@salt.eng.pyramid.com (Romain Kang)
Newsgroups: ba.general,ba.politics
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Followup-To: ba.general
Date: 8 Jan 1993 19:25:28 GMT
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corp, San Jose, CA
Distribution: world
Reply-To: romain@pyramid.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: salt.eng.pyramid.com
Keywords: necessity, utility, luxury

[Note restoration of the original article's Followup-to: header]

There is a broad spectrum of attitudes toward cable television
companies, and I'm not sure the different parties in this discussion
understand each others' positions.  So here is my interpretation.

There is a point that Mark Walsh touches in the referenced posting
which seems to be a source of confusion in some of the posts on this
subject.  This can be framed with the question, "Is <product> a
necessity, a utility, or a luxury?"  It's probably safe to say that
consumers' tolerance of suppliers' perceived unfairness varies
depending on which category <product> falls in.

If cable television is the product under consideration, many people
will say it is a luxury.  If any luxury is overpriced from the
consumers' perspective (e.g., diamond studded refrigerators) then
consumers will refrain from purchasing the product.  Such overpricing
is not tolerated as well if the product is considered a utility,
which has become the case with television.

Broadcast television in the US resembles a utility in many ways,
considering how heavily it is used and regulated.  Cable television
similarly resembles a utility; further, comparison with telephone
service is inevitable.  Telephone service once was purely a luxury; now
it is a utility, and in California we even have "Lifeline" telephone
service for the infirm and elderly -- or is that electrical service?
The point, however, is similar for telephones, electricity, municipal
water, and other public services.

Cable television confuses the distinctions of utility and luxury
because of the way it is implemented in the US.  It has always been
clearly a luxury to me, but generic cable services could evolve in a
fashion similar to electrical service, especially considering the
demands of the Information Age.  In this case, we may have to make
up our minds that it is a utility -- cable pricing and services
should be regulated more heavily than they are now, but we might
also need to establish longer-lived service companies and make
bond issues or other infrastructure funding instruments feasible.

For now, though, I say that if the NBACCs are overpriced, the instrument
of pressure is boycott, I see cable television as a luxury.  If they are
making money from people who think the product *is* acceptable, then what
motivation do the cable companies have to change?  In the mean time,
the confusion between utility and luxury impedes changes in the way
cable television is offered.

Romain
Newsgroups: ba.general
From: Harry Salvini <hgs@wdl1.wdl.loral.com>
Subject: Re: Can I eat the olives from our tree?
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A7709A9DE501D608@260-3l-mac8a.wdl.loral.com>
X-Xxdate: Wed, 6 Jan 93 14:18:05 GMT
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:18:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.232835.3869@netcom.com> David Schachter,
ds@netcom.com writes:
In article <156420006@hpcupt3.cup.hp.com> Mark Ikemoto,
marki@hpcupt3.cup.hp.com writes:
>> I can't believe that you wrote all that.  I'm astonished.  Perhaps
amazed, too
>
>Drugs can make people do this.  Either that........or eating a bad olive.

On the other hand, when there isn't anything else to do during lunch
time, I try to
come up with similar responses.

I thought it was a very well written article, presenting a perfect
explanation as to
why our government has so many hold-ups in their process.  Too much
paperwork.

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| -+-  hgs@wdl1.wdl.loral.com -- Kathy's Hubby & Jonathan's Daddy  O O |
|  |    BTW: LORAL doesn't have anything to do with my opinions.    v  |
|  |               I came up with them all on my own.              \_/ |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: ba.general
From: glo@dvlseq.us.oracle.com (George Lo)
Subject: recommendation for eye-exam
Organization: Oracle World HQ, Redwood Shores, California
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:28:14 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

Hi, can anybody recommend some good place for eye-exam?
Price is a concern.
Thanks
From: HF.CRS@forsythe.stanford.edu (Craig Snarr)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: New carS Questions
Date: 11 Jan 1993 18:25:24 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

Hello All,

  With all this car sales talk, i figgured this is problay a good
group to start with, and that is,  i and a friend are thinking it
is time for us to have a "newer" car.  All of them have at least
been 10 years old!  Since we have some MAJOR purchases in both our
names (it's a long story) we were thinking that if we went together
for some kind of 'combo' buy, each getting our own car, we SHOULD
be able to get a good deal, right?  So thats the first question.
Then hows about recomendations on books or whatever on what to ask,
look out for etc.... I do plan on checking out consumers report,
natch.  Our last couple of cars have been 'privately' bought, so
we do want to arm ourselves with as much as we can.  I have a Toyota
Truck that we will problay sell 'privately' since i understand we
would problay get more money that way, right? 3rd question;)  And
then is there another news group for this kind of stuff?  It seemed
like there was alot of interest/information here, so thats why i
started here.  Oh, any personel stories on what to watch out for
would be great too!  thanks!
oh, oh, email is fine too!-)
craig "you have to ask WHICH manager?" snarr
Newsgroups: ba.general
From: fred_s@netcom.com (Frederick Scott)
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Keywords: necessity, utility, luxury, *monopoly*
Organization: Nerds On Parade
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:40:06 GMT

romain@pyramid.com writes: 

>In <1993Jan8.210912.765@netcom.com> fred_s@netcom.com (Frederick Scott) writes:
>| I don't buy your assertion that classifying something as
>| a "luxury" means we should necessarily let MONOPOLISTIC (as opposed to free
>| market) suppliers off the hook with a boycott (of questionable value, at that)
>| as opposed to regulating them.  
>
>What models exist for price-regulated luxury monopolies?  Luxury
>monopolies such as the DeBeers diamond cartel apparently set their own
>prices and standards without government restraint.

Yes, but the case for calling DeBeers a monopoly in the same sense that a
cable company is a monopoly is likely to be very questionable.  If DeBeers
were truly an effective monopoly, they could be subject to federal anti-trust
legislation.

I don't really know anything about this dimond cartel situation, so please
don't take advantage of my ignorance of it.  I was just trying to point out
that if a market really did exist for actually offering your "dimond-studded
referigerators" but the only supplier was over-charging for it, another
supplier could always enter the market and compete for the profits.  This is
not true in the case of cable television.

>My bottom line: If you choose government as your instrument for cable
>regulation, I believe it will be more effective you to place it in the
>context of information age infrastructure, rather than simply bread and
>circuses.

I'm not really certain what you mean by this.  It is always important to
take into account those paramenters such as how a product is produced and how
(and for what reasons) it is consumed when regulating it.  E.g., it is not
as important to see that the old and infirmed are not unjustly or suddenly
cut off from their cable television as, for instance, their electricity or
even their phone.

Fred
Newsgroups: ba.general
From: tweek@netcom.com (Michael D. Maxfield)
Subject: Re: pressure those nasty Bay Area cable companies!
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 00:30:34 GMT

In article <488@vega.iii.com> rhockins@enrico.tmc.edu (Russell Hockins) writes:
>[...]
>my sister has one.  She even gets live NASA downlinks from the shuttle
>when it is up.
>[...]
>| My own opinions  no one elses |  packet : ka6foy @ ki6yk.#nocal.ca.na.usa  |
Noting your location via your ham packet address, you may be pleased to know,
as will others in line of site view of Mt. Diablo, that anyone with a cable
ready TV set can pick up NASA Select when the shuttle is up.  

You set your CABLE READY set to CABLE 58, disconnect the cable, hook up a
UHF antenna into the cable input of the set, and you are now receiving
NASA Select courtesy of Amateur Radio (Now why do they call it radio when
it is tv).

People in view of Black Mountain on the pennisula can also receive this, but
unless they changed the setup down there, you need one of those MDS microwave
tuners that go for around 80 bucks or so.

RE: That chip down in Mexico...  I thought I heard a while back that the
scrambling technology was changed a bit to circumvent those chips due to the
widespread use of them by all the dish owners in the Caribbean.

       tweek@netcom.com  tweek@tweekco.uucp  WWIVNet 5@5058  4@5056 
          I'd rather get my cable service from the phone company,
                than my phone service from the cable company.


Newsgroups: ba.general
From: hawkes@hillrun.wpd.sgi.com (John Hawkes)
Subject: Re: Comments concerning Toyota of Palo Alto?
Organization: Silicon Graphics
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:32:47 GMT

My wife was shopping last summer for a Toyota Previa, and her first
stop was Toyota of Palo Alto.  She wanted to negotiate price and
terms, but the salesman told her to come back with her husband.

Her second stop was Toyota 101 in San Carlos (or is it Redwood City),
at US-101 and Whipple.  They treated her as a prospective buyer, and
she drove away in her new Previa.
-- 
John Hawkes		hawkes@sgi.com
From: pw@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Peter Wicher)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 02:11:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Need Advise on one hassle deal at Capitol Honda
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: ba.general

 The key thing to remember in dealing with any sales person is that until
the sale is absolutely final you have a lot of leverage.  In a case like
this where you can easily find the same product at basically the same price
from another dealer you have ALL of the leverage.  Salesmen, especially car
salesmen, are incredibly hungry for every single sale.  It's amazing how
compliant they become when you tell them the deal's off and then walk out of
their office.
 
Review your purchase contract very carefully.  If there is a clause that
states clearly or can be reasonably understood to mean that the interest
rate commitment would expire if your car was not delivered by January 3
then, unfortunately, the dealer is acting within the bounds of the contract
and you may have little legal recourse (unless the contract itself violates
the law).  One important thing to immediately check on in such an event
is what your rights to back out of the contract are.  There may be some
consumer protection laws that allow you to back out of a major purchase within
some period of time.  The resources listed in previous responses may help
you there. 
Suppose there is no such clause.  If the dealer doesn't have any of your money
then you're in great shape.  You have a signed contract stating that your
interest rate will be 5.9%.  Check with the bank or credit corporation that
will be carrying the loan to make sure that your payments will reflect the
5.9% rate.  If you don't get completely satisfactory answers from the dealer
and the credit corporation then write the dealer a note documenting how
he/they have broken the terms of the contract and stating that you will be
taking your business elsewhere.  If he doesn't bend over backward to satisfy
you at this point he's an idiot and you don't want to be buying from him
anyway; walk away and don't go back.  If he does have enough of your money to
make it painful for you to go somewhere else, you still have that signed
contract with a 5.9% interest rate.  Climb the layers of management either
with the car company or the credit company until you find a sensible manager
with the authority to insure that your payments will be at 5.9%.  Get
confirmation of your rate from him/her IN WRITING.
  



 Only use the courts as a last resort.  Understanding when you have leverage
and knowing how to use it is one of the keys to getting along in a world
populated with bozos like your car dealer.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Wicher
pw@hpdtc.hp.com
~
From: colleen@apple.com (Colleen Delgadillo)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Need Wedding Photographer Recomm.
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:21:48 GMT
Followup-To: ba.general
Organization: Apple Computer

Hello!

I am getting married in San Francisco on July 3rd and am looking for
recommendations for great Wedding Photographers.    If you have any
recommendations please let me know.  I would love to hear from you!

Thanks in advance!

Colleen Kelley Delgadillo 
DTS Hardware Chick
Email: colleen@apple.com 
Applelink: LEENIE
From: jog@kpc.com (Rajeev Jog)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Re: Which are the dry months in northern California ?
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:35:00 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Kubota Pacific Computers Inc.

patf@silvlis.com (Pat Fitzgibbons) writes:

>  My brother and my father are coming 
>out to play a round of golf at Pebble
>Beach golf links. This is a once in a 
>lifetime chance so they would prefer 
>not to be rained on. Can anyone tell
>me which months of the year are likely 
>not to have rain ? 
>--
> O O O  Patrick Fitzgibbons   /\            |         These are my opinions.

If this had been posted any time in the last five years, the answer
would have been easy: every month!

You should be able to check weather records on this, but anecdotally,
it's generally dry from May through November.  Best best are likely to
be September and October.


-- 
Rajeev Jog
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kubota Pacific Computer Inc.                                   +1 408 727 8100
2630 Walsh Avenue, Santa Clara, CA. 95051-0905, USA.               jog@kpc.com
Newsgroups: ba.general
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Clothing industry info wanted
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Distribution: ba
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:48:14 GMT

A friend is looking for work in the clothing industry in SF, either
designing clothing or as a buyer.  Does anyone know anything about 
the clothing industry in the area, such as jobs available, good companies,
bad companies, job agencies, or any other info?

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: ba.general
From: ccollins@novell.com (Catherine Collins)
Subject: Re: recommendations for bakeries in MT.VIEW/PALO ALTO
Organization: Novell Inc., San Jose, Califonia
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 00:29:14 GMT

My favorite has always been Stig's in Mtn View in the Blossom Valley
center at the corner of Cuesta and Miramonte.

Catherine Collins
From: colleen@apple.com (Colleen Delgadillo)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Band Recommendation
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:10:01 GMT
Followup-To: ba.general
Organization: Apple Computer

Hello!

I am getting married in San Francisco on July 3rd and am looking for a
great band to play at my wedding reception.  I am looking for someone who
is jazzy and can play some really fun dance music.  If you have any
recommendations please let me know.  Also, if there is someone you think I
should check out at a club in S.F. that you think would be a good candidate
please link me!

I would love to hear of some great recommendations!
Thanks in advance!

Colleen Kelley Delgadillo 
DTS Hardware Chick
Email: colleen@apple.com 
Applelink: LEENIE
From: nader@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Nader Sharabianlou)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:37:08 GMT
Subject: Apartment For Rent
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: ba.general

In Montain View, One Bedroom/One Bath AEK carpets and drapes, water and garbage paid.  Easy access to 85 & 237.  $650/month. call (415) 948-1635.  No Pets
From: knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Tom Knotts)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:18:55 GMT
Subject: Re: How to clean/oil bicycle chain
Organization: HP Labs, High Speed Electronics Dept., Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: ba.general

> 
>     If it's showing signs of rust, the best approach is an overhand hook
> shot into the wastebasket - when was it last replaced?  Then take out a
> second mortgage on the house and spend ten dollars to get a new chain.
> 
>     Even better, direct this question to rec.bicycles.
> 

There were so few postings in rec.bicycles that I thought it was
not very well read.

Thanks to all who replied. I guess that replacement is the best
approach.

Tom
From: ldow@apldbio.com (Leslie Johnston-Dow)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Comments concerning Toyota of Palo Alto?
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:40:02 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Applied Biosystems Inc, Foster City, CA

Hello All;

I am considering the purchase of a Toyota 4Runner from Toyota of Palo Alto.
Any comments? Does anyone have any experiences with this or
any other Toyota Dealers? We are initially, quite impressed with
this place and one of the sales people. So I am looking for
specific examples of good/bad dealings.

Thanks and Happy New Year.
Leslie
From: fred_s@netcom.com (Frederick Scott)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Re: Pleasant Experience at Dahle's
Date: 7 Jan 93 07:55:07 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Nerds On Parade

wallich@ncd.com (Ken Wallich) writes: 

>With all the irritation I've had lately with retail sales places, as
>well unreliable and just plain flinky gear I've bought, I had a very
>pleasant experience at REI yesterday I thought I'd share.
...(story deleted)
>Now if only we got this kind of service at home electronics, or
>appliance, or automobile, or computer dealers.  Naww, it would never
>work.

I've got a good, simple story about a stupid consumer saved by magnanimous
and noble retailer.

While shopping for clothing at Dahles on San Carlos St. in San Jose, I found
a cotton shirt I particularly liked.  Up till now, I'd always found it
necessary to have my shirts tapered, because I'm about halfway between two
sizes.  This shirt looked even larger than usual, so I requested they do this
for me.  The manager on duty there warned me that this was a cotton shirt
and he felt it was going to shrink quite a bit on me.  Why not go home and
wash it a couple times and then bring it back in for tailoring if I still
wanted it?  I'd never had a problem with even cotton shirts shrinking on me
that much and I didn't want to deal with the extra trip, so I ignored the
advice.

Sure enough, the shirt shrunk way more than I expected it to and was unwearable
after a couple washes.  The problem is, having to shop at Big & Tall stores as
I do, I don't get much selection.  When I find a style I like, I have to go
for it.  In short, although I didn't exactly want to risk facing the same guy
again and having to admit my total *wrongness* ("yes, god, I'll say it, I WAS
WR-O-O-O-NNNNG!" ***), I wanted to replace it badly enough to go back to the
store.  Sure enough, the same manager was on duty and, sure enough, he asked
me about the shirt right away.  I guess I was feeling stupid enough to deserve
a good "I told you so" so I just came right out and admitted the mistake.
Amazingly, he agreed to exchange the shirt.  In fact, he actaully offered to
give me a cash refund on it and in the end I just used the refund to purchase
a replacement.  This in spite of the fact that the tailored garmet was probably
worthless to him - or certainly not worth much.

(*** - Men, I'm a trained professional.  Don't try this at home!)

By the way, while I was getting my replacement, I wound up deciding to buy
another shirt and a pair of jeans.  That guy's a good salesman.

Fred
From: colleen@apple.com (Colleen Delgadillo)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Need Wedding Cake Recommendation
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:19:14 GMT
Followup-To: ba.general
Organization: Apple Computer

Hello!

I am getting married in San Francisco on July 3rd and am for
recommendations on who to go to for wedding cakes.   I have heard that many
places will make them look really nice but they won't taste anything like
cake.  (possibly more like sugar and glue compound).  I figure that there
must be some of you out there with good Wedding Cake experiences.  If you
have any recommendations please let me know.  (Also, if there is someone
you think I should absolutely stay away from, please let me know!)  I would
love to hear from you!

Thanks in advance!

Colleen Kelley Delgadillo 
DTS Hardware Chick
Email: colleen@apple.com 
Applelink: LEENIE
From: christil@uts.amdahl.com (Christine Lee)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: recommendations for bakeries in MT.VIEW/PALO ALTO
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:58:45 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

I need recommendations for good bakeries (for a birthday cake) in the
Mt. View/Palo Alto area *only*.  Please send email to me
at: christil@uts.amdahl.com.  Thanks.

--Christine
   

-- 

Christine Lee                           Amdahl Corp. 	
christil@long_island.uts.amdahl.com     Santa Clara, CA   

----------------------------------------------------------
  "Suppose that you were an idiot and suppose you were a 
   member of Congress.  But I repeat myself."
                                            --Mark Twain
----------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: ba.general
From: roland@quadsys.com (Roland Besserer)
Subject: Re: Comments concerning Toyota of Palo Alto?
Organization: QUAD Systems
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: ba
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 19:40:54 GMT

news@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com (news) writes:
: I was along with my S.O. and her son a couple of years back when they
: bought him a used Celica All-track (sp?) from Toyota of PA. I felt that
: the car was sold to my S.O. for a very fair price.  We did have to go
: through the usual 4-hour nonsense of walking out a time or two, getting
: handed-off to another salesperson and then the closer before arriving
: at the final price.  However, at no time did they insult us or try
: and work one of us against the other.
: 

I would never even consider buying a car from a dealer pulling
'the usual 4 hour nonsense' on me. As long as people accept this kind
treatment nothing will change. I have never spend more that 20-30 minutes
buying or leasing a car. As soon as any dealer starts to give me the
runaround I explain to them calmly that I will not tolerate any of their
usual sales tactics and if they decide not to deal with me honestly
and quickly I'm out of there.

There are too many car dealerships and many will sell you a car as it
should be sold - like any other damn product.

-- 

Roland Besserer
QUAD Systems
roland@quadsys.com