HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Getting information
Date: 18 Nov 1992 01:10:44 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: gvh@metrosoft.com's message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:55:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.225517.4860@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
   You removed the context of my response. I was told by more than one  
   individual (and they happened to be news admins) that if I didn't know how  
   to add a new group to me feed that I didn't have much business expressing  
   my opinion about the vote. If that is a prevalent attitude this process is  
   most definately skewed toward that group.

People vary.
Newsadmins are people (surprise! ;-) .
Therefore, newsadmins vary.

USENET is like the world.  Lots of people tell us different things.
We have to learn how to distinguish what's useful from the rest.
And our success tends to depend upon how quickly we learn this art.

For the record, I'm not a newsadmin.  I am a sysadmin for a few brands
of *ix as well as some others.  But I do prefer order.  And your
opinion is as valid as anybody else's, although some may have more
experience behind them, which usually receives more acceptance.
(So does calmly presenting said opinion.)

--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:42:24 GMT

In article <1794@frackit.UUCP> dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:

>Dave, you're wearing thin.

Are you kidding?  He's transparent.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:24:54 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>Another point to note: if nobody even _realized_ that an article was posted
>with the word "rename" in the header until _now_, that means the article was
>fairly inconspicuous....

Yes. Just because you post one article (heard of KILL files? Bad news spools?)
doesn't mean everyone heard it.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Compassion will cure more sins than condemnation.
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes may be right (was Re: To keep the r.m.s rename...)
Date: 21 Nov 1992 13:36:55 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov20.235514.18428@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>...and you appear to have a problem with reality.
>How judgemental of you.

You've given me plenty of evidence to support such a conclusion during this
discussion; your oddwad ideas about how things should happen, versus how they
actually happen in the real world, are the basis for my conclusion.

>>Chip's statement was a statement of fact. Only in the case of providers of
>>paid Usenet services - a situation I don't believe Chip is in - do the admins
>>serve the users. In the case of most corporate news admins, the management of
>>the company is the only group the admin must serve.
>How assumptive of you.

OK, here's another assumption: Chip will tell me, most likely in this very
group as a folowup to one of these three messages, if my assumption is
invalid. After this message, he may even tell me I'm right.

This is based on Chip's previously demonstrated willingness to do so.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
           "Cat: Four legs and an attitude." -- Jim Reese
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 02:18:50 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <JAAPJL.92Nov19184257@cmb00.larc.nasa.gov> J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov> writes:
>In article <1992Nov17.194835.24701@beaver.cs.washington.edu> graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham) writes:
>   In article <Bxv4LD.1z6@apollo.hp.com> @apollo.HP.COM (Jennifer E. Levine) writes:
>   >There are people who like Fantasy and not Science fiction. They may
>   >not realize they are welcome in rec.arts.sf.*
>
>   But most people will read both. If the majority of the audience reads both
>   or tolerates both, it's better to keep them together.
>
>Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.  And repeat it.
>And repeat it. ...  I don't think r.a.sf.tolkien was voted down
>because it's fantasy.  Those who remember more accurately, correct me.
>:-)

Well, my memory of the summer of '91 (was it only '91?  It seems much
further back. ;-) are (thankfully) starting to fade, but my recollection
of the main reason against r.a.sf.tolkein (and r.a.sf.heinlein) was that
it would produce endless numbers of "Why does {Heinlein|Tolkein} get a
groop, but <foo> doesn't?" questions and related flameage.  Another
concern was that there wasn't sufficient traffic to justify a
mainstream newsgroup.  Thirdly, there was concern about 'Ghetto-ization'
of those groups.  (Particularly .heinlein for the perpetual RAH
flamewar.  Curiously, I don't recall a RAH flamewar from after the
split that has been nearly as vehement as the ones before. ;-)

>J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
Xref: sparky news.groups:22343 news.admin:8582 rec.music.synth:18596
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 18 Nov 92 01:33:11 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Nov12.042202.2822@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
> >Free clue: "we" are not renaming the group. The NET AS A WHOLE decided
> >to rename the group. Everyone who cared enough to vote had a chance to
> >vote. You voted. You lost. 
> 
> The net as a whole did not vote. A small vocal minority of the net voted.
> When you show me more than 10000 votes (a small small fraction of the 
> net readership) then I *might* begin to think that the net voted. 

Stop playing semantics Dave. It just shows you to be prolonging this
whole mess for your own enjoyment. 

Another free clue.  The net was notified of the vote in a proper manner
as provided for in the guidelines.  Those who cared to know how the net
operates by the simple expedient of READING and felt they had a stake in
it voted.  Those who didn't are now struggling to their feet claiming
they didn't know what was going on because you have been hollaring that
they didn't.  YOU knew what was going on and didn't do a damn thing. 
Not even an attempt to raise some opposition in r.m.s.  because you
thought the vote would fail. 

Guess what. It didn't. You lost and now seem intent on diverting
attention and assuaging your guilty feelings by blaming everything from
an ill-defined "class structure elitist News Admins" to poorly written
guidelines, depending on which way the wind of net opinion seems to be
blowing at the moment. 

I have no doubts that you'll keep ranting and raving and trying to
convince others that yours is the "one true way". It may not be but
you'll never admit that. 

There may well be a problem with the guidelines. After some sane
discussion maybe something can be done about it. Now here's the
important part so pay careful attention:

    As long as you continue to insist that the vote be held
    again you are damaging any chances of progress on the
    guideline discussion.  You probably don't care but people
    are laughing at you.  Your arguments are no longer being taken
    seriously by the very people you NEED to have on your side. 

You had better start considering a compromise soon or as much as you
may call it vote fraud there will be LOTS of spite votes against what
you want. 

-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:02:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1ehv24INNg08
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <21886@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>I find it so incredibly insulting that you would suggest everyone on
>the net wade through this newsgroup just to prevent some re-org freak
>(have we all forgotten K*nt Paul Dolan so quickly?) from running amok?

This newsgroup is not the group to read to keep abreast of what votes
are being discussed. News.announce.newgroups. Much smaller, almost no
effort to read. 

In 9 days, n.a.n had 29 posts. Three per day. 

>Just the fact that so many messages are posted with this subject line
>should be a clue.  The re-org was a bad idea.  Who ever did it should
>admit they made a mistake and just be done with it.

They apparently didn't make a mistake. A majority of those who showed an
interest in the matter thought the rename was ok. Then this is applied
to a vote, it is called "winning".
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 16 Nov 1992 18:13:41 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov14.022723.2545@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> <97600@netnews.upenn.edu>
	<1992Nov15.130803.12664@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Sun, 15 Nov 1992 13:08:03 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.130803.12664@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
   rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
   >>Have you asked a random usenet user what they think is of critical
   >>importance? Is it possible that they might not have the same view?
   >However, there are also consequences which ensue from holding
   >*that* point of view, and Usenet users who adhere to it must also
   >be prepared to deal with those consequences.  One's opinion
   >that something is unimportant does not necessarily make it so.

   So there IS a standard of importance that is deemed to be "more important"
   than others...

"More accurate", maybe, than some others.  "How accurate" is
determined by observing consequences.

Each of us chooses his own standards.  If I perceive that someone's
standard can lead him to certain ill consequences and mine doesn't
lead to those consequences, perhaps mine is better in some sense.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Flash!  Dave Hayes joins my Global Kill File
Date: 23 Nov 1992 22:47:56 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

Congratulations, Dave Hayes!  You are the first *person*, as opposed to
arbitrary string of characters, to make it into my global Kill File.

BTW, shmuck, if this makes you feel special, go suck on a rock.  Oh, and don't
bother posting...I won't see it.

Don't bother E-mailing, either...my Kill File works on E-mail also.

So there!

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nadeau@bcarh1ab.bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 03:05:02 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.082844.13812@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>nadeau@bcarh1ab.bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>>>And *again* I assert that it wasn't the fault of the unwillingly ignorant 
>>>that they didn't vote.
>>Dave, I often miss events or sales I'd be interested in, because I
>>didn't bother reading the paper the day they were announced, or skipped
>>over that section.  Would I be justified in complaining that I wasn't
>>given fair notice, that I should get a second chance?
>
>"What do you mean that the city is auctioning my property? I wasn't notified.
>WHAT? I don't get a chance to complain?"

A further question, milking this analogy for all its worth:

What do you mean, YOUR property?

And as for getting a chance to complain - surely you won't claim you
were denied this?  (Or is this another one of your jokes?)

The Rhealist - Rheal Nadeau - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Usenet Culture (Was: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:15:06 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith):
>And so this is the question for the net: do we want to make it difficult to
>participate in Usenet, so as to insure that the particpaants will be truly
>worthy/deserving/educated/what-have-you?

I don't think that _anyone_ wants to _make_ participation difficult.
However, I am content that participation requires partcipants to take
an active interest in how Usenet works and to seek out the information
they need in order to participate meaningfully and helpfully.

>I'm sure Chip doesn't want to require an IQ test for net access (well,
>pretty sure anyway)...

You're right.  IQ tests don't measure anything of interest to me.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
From: khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFD: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya (Moderated)
Summary: COOL DOWN, BABY!!
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:10:00 GMT
Organization: Biology Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Hold it! Let's cool down a bit, Mr. Josh Smith.  You seem to be
bothered a lot by the myriad of posts by people as to whether or
not Ahmadis should use the name "Islam" in their newsgroup.  So
am I.  But by responding to such people the way you are doing, you
sort of let them achieve their objective -- tease us all on the
net with propaganda of both sides, with little reason in arguments.
This is what they seem to be doing and will go on doing so till
the newsgroup is either passed or rejected.  If you are not
interested in the articles, don't read them.  They have the right
to freedom of speech as much as do the *BAD* music group people.
I did not read a single article in that series, and was not hurt
(or did not let them know that I was) by their articles.  Do not
tell them where you are vulnerable, for then they'll get you right
there.  Just wait for the new CFV, and vote your no, or kick them
into their own newsgroup by voting yes.  What's the hullabaloo, sir?
Pick up a tissue and wipe off your tears -- it's not the end of the
world.
Your well wisher,
Rasheed (one who enjoys watching cocks fight from a distance)

Xref: sparky news.groups:21989 comp.sys.m68k:1361 comp.sys.intel:2256
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.sys.m68k,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Is there a general fault-tolerance news group?
Keywords: fault tolerance
Date: 16 Nov 1992 13:37:48 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <lgf8foINNc63@priddy.cs.utexas.edu> cpg@cs.utexas.edu (Carlos M. Puchol) writes:
>There are many terms that would fit the bill, like dependability,
>responsiveness, etc ... but if it doesn't seem too stupid, why don't
>we call it just comp.fault-tolerance ?

Too long. Each component of a newsgroup name (between the dots, or after the
last dot) needs to be no longer than 14 characters to maintain compatibility
with System V systems that toss out filenames that are too long (too many SCO
System V systems aer set that way in a mistaken attempt to maintain POSIX
compatibility).
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
           "Cat: Four legs and an attitude." -- Jim Reese
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Usenet Culture (Was: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??)
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:35:08 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <id.TI1V.GWF@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)  
writes:
> In article <1992Nov16.210934.3698@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon  
Van Huizen) writes:
> > 1. Less actual users of Usenet will be able to function well in it
> 
> Has always been the case.
> 

Is it desirable? Apparently to you it is.

> > 2. There will be less understanding of one culture by the other
> 
> I don't believe in your two cultures. There are dozens of cultures in the
> net already. Compare and contrast talk.bizzarre, alt.flame, rec.arts.sf,
> and comp.dcom.telecom.
> 

These dozens (if not hundreds) of cultures that you delineate can also have  
their individual members demographically assigned to other cultural  
definitions, such as the one I presented. 

> > 3. Disagreements regarding process will in general become more vocal
> 
> Probably so, particularly as background information continues to disappear
> from the documentation.
> 

Who said anything about causing information to disappear? I'm in favor of more  
information.

> > 4. The 'will of the net' will come to mean 'the will of the creators'
> 
> No, the will of the net will remain "the will of the people running the
> best-connected sites".
> 

So not only do you support a political system that doesn't include the users,  
but a system that only includes the "best-connected sites"?

> > 5. Each group will likely feel intimidated, persecuted or simply annoyed  
> > by the other
> 
> Well, most of us are annoyed at talk.bizzarre now and then.

Cute.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Subject: Usenet Culture (Was: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??)
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 06:23:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.042236.26179@wolves.uucp> news@wolves.durham.nc.us writes:

[deletion]

>What is needed is some way to encourage the admins of the net to provide
>a set of introductory documents to new users (all new users) and to have
>some restriction on posting until the user shows some understanding of
>the net.culture (or at least some basic nettiquette. :-)

A good idea, however, almost impossible to enforce.  Especially
because there are many "private" sites out there, or single-users
"sites", etc.

The problem with UseNet is that it relies too much on Mankind's
(assumed) good sense.  It seems that, sadly enough, such sense is
lacking in most readers.

Actually, my newsreader (rn) does have a kind of "restriction"; every
time I post it gives me a message to the effect that I will be posting
to thousands of machines and costing thousands of dollars, etc.
However, I'm so used to the message that I mostly ignore it.

Perhaps make all groups moderated?  (That's a *joke*, folks!)

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
Via: uk.ac.leeds.scs; Fri, 20 Nov 1992 16:25:56 +0000
Distribution: world
X-News-Gateway: NewsGateway@phaze.UUCP (NewsGateway 1.0 by Pierre Rioux)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 16:25:51 GMT
Newsgroups: news.groups
Organization: The University of Leeds, School of Computer Studies
From: ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk
To: usenet@phaze.cam.org
Cc: 
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!

In article <7916@lib.tmc.edu> you write:
>No, that wasn't my point. There's no objective way to determine in advance
>what's related and what isn't, true - but that simply means that we must leave
>it up to the proposer to decide. Bad proposals will get shot down during the
>discussion phases, as happens now; those few that don't will get voted down.

This paragraph is only meaningful if you accept the following premise:

* The rec.music.makers.* proposal wasn't "bad"

Those of us that believe the proposal was "bad" are going to immediately
disregard your points, because we have just seen a "bad" example that
didn't get shot down during the RFD stage or voted down.

However, you have lots of converted to preach to, so don't let me stop you.

Cheers,

Ross-c
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes may be right (was Re: To keep the r.m.s rename...)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:55:14 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>...and you appear to have a problem with reality.

How judgemental of you.

>Chip's statement was a statement of fact. Only in the case of providers of
>paid Usenet services - a situation I don't believe Chip is in - do the admins
>serve the users. In the case of most corporate news admins, the management of
>the company is the only group the admin must serve.

How assumptive of you.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

  Counterfeiters exist because there is such a thing as real money.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: andre@king.slc.mentorg.com (Andre' Hut)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.visual-basic
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: /net/king/usr1/andre/.organization
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:26:29

In article <Bxty6L.3zI@uunet.uu.net> doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) writes:

   >Proposed newsgroup name: comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.visual-basic

Way way too long of a name.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions are solely my own, and do not necessarily reflect those
of my employer.

Andre' Hut       andre@slc.mentorg.com  or  utah-cs!caeco!andre
Mentor Graphics, Suite 300, 5295 South 300 West, Murray, Utah 84107
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:58:02 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

Maybe what we need is something that specifies fiction as genre fiction? For
instance:

rec.story.genre.fantasy
rec.story.genre.hardboiled
rec.story.genre.romance
rec.story.genre.horror
rec.story.genre.kids-books
rec.story.genre.sf
rec.story.telling

And so on...

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail.                         -- Baron de Montesquieu