HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:28:17 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <9212141906.AA08716@deepthought.cs.utexas.edu> Joel Furr, posing as
me, writes:
>Just a little rudely forwarded email from Jay Maynard on the subject of
>"jay, stop encouraging Dave Hayes"...
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>You know, my first instinct when i saw your original request to me was to tell
>you to go straight to hell.

>Instead, I think I'll continue rebutting Dave Hayes, point by point, just to
>piss you off.

>You reap what you sow...

Nice try, Joel.

Quite aside from the impropriety of posting email, you've simply hardened my
resolve.

For the rest of you: Joel had the unmitigated gall to ask me to stop replying
to Dave Hayes' postings after flaming me to a crackly crunch just because I
dared to go against the alt.folklore.computers Politically Correct line. The
message above, which I freely admit sending to him, was my reply after he told
me that 1) his flamage of me for doing was was completely called for, and 2)
if I continued, I'd "earn" more of it (his word, not mine).
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:44:56 GMT

In article <id.H9WV.2WG@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>Mailing lists to me seem to be more of a problem than newsgroups for the
>net, for the people running the, and for the readers. Where this hassle
>balances out the costs of an extra newsgroup isn't easy to decide, and I
>think the current 100 YES votes rule is as good a guess as any and better
>than most.

I have a thought - mailing lists affect sites worse than news when there are 
2+ subscribers to the list (although it really is N, N >> 2).  Would a
metric of (for example) at least 100 sites with 3+ readers be a 'target'
for conversion from mailing list to newsgroup?  This might convert to 
300 votes minimum, in the current scheme.

>A bigger problem is how to measure and how much credibility to
>give NO votes.

How can you tell the reasons behind a NO vote, with enough objectivity to
satisfy the news admins?  For every poorly-movitated NO vote there is
another, equally vehement, but valid NO vote.



-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
From: aej@manyjars.WPI.EDU (Allan E Johannesen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: what does it take to get someone to vote?
Date: 17 Dec 92 19:57:07
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<6734@npri6.npri.com> <737@ulogic.UUCP>
	<1992Dec17.232854.25170@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: manyjars.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:28:54 GMT

Sorry if this doesn't follow the thread in this article.  I did not
read it.  It was just the last line after a bunch of n's I had typed.
I've been typing "n" a lot lately.

I'm just wondering: what are you doing?

The group is here; whatever its name is, I forget.  Some music thing
isn't it?  One of the ~2,200 groups here.  It will remain here.  It's
everywhere (maybe not where you are).  It will remain everwhere (minus
insignificance) until a vote is taken to remove it, alter its name, or
whatever you are arguing for (I confess I'm not reading the articles;
they doesn't matter to me, they are pointless).

If you have some brilliant argument I'm not going to remove it.
Brilliance of posting doesn't trigger `rmgroup` in INN.  Again, I'm
not reading your arguments, nor the ones against you.  I believe that
probably close to nobody is reading this thread (not any of the tens
of threads on the subject these days); maybe you have some group of
people hot enough to argue, but I just don't care.

I do not care if you think a plurality of 1 vote (again, I do not
recall why you are upset; I maybe knew a month ago when I made the
mistake of actually reading an article or two) is too small.  It
happened.  It will not be undone without another vote.  Why don't you
just issue a nice, civil CFV at the first valid opportunity.  When
(if) tale sends a rmgroup, it will go away, have a name change, or
whatever.

This pointless drivel is going nowhere.  I am not judging (again, not
even reading) the arguments on the various sides.  I am just observing
the volume of pointlessness, since all the noise is not going to
change anything.  If there is a side effect to this, maybe it is just
amassing votes when and if anyone has the balls to put forth a vote;
do you fantasize that your arguments will win votes for your side from
your current combatants when (if) a vote comes up?

If the point is that you don't like groups being made and destroyed by
vote, then you're in the wrong universe.  Try alt.* instead.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Organization: Rice University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:32:31 GMT

In article <1gbgobINNrr9@morrow.stanford.edu> karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>In article <Bz4D74.6ED@rice.edu> cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
>writes:

>>I'm about ready to formally propose the darn thing just to bring the
>>issue to an end.

>be rejected immediately as frivolous

I don't think it's frivolous.  A lot of this discussion is though.
(Including my own, doubtless.)

>and contrary to
>the guidelines, which suggest a six-month cooling-off
>period before an attempt to overturn the result of a
>valid vote.

There is that.  Though technically the guidelines don't specify a
waiting period for overturning a passed vote, only for re-proposing
a failed one.  I suppose the same rationale applies.  If we have a
new vote that would reverse the results of a previous vote, it will
probably open a large can of worms better left closed.  Oh well, it
probably wouldn't have stopped anyone flaming anyway.  Look at me, I
let myself get into it again even after posting the above...

	Cathy
-- 
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
Why you should recycle bytes:  "Believe it or not, most deleted bytes currently
find their way straight into the Internet refuse stream, often to turn up in
postings to Usenet, or worse, OSI standards documents!"  -- Peter Deutsch
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:34:55 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <1992Dec9.232716.17910@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>This is a very weak argument. If Gordon did not know (as you admitted)
>that he had a choice, you cannot very well say that he had a choice. 
>You can even say that he can't have a right to vote if he doesn't know
>how to vote.
>
>That's extremely similar to when they gave African Americans a chance to 
>vote but made it illegal to teach them how to read. 
>


Jesus Christ!  Get a clue!

NOBODY AND NO ONE "refused to teach Gordon how to read".

There were and are no artificial roadblocks in the way of user
participation in voting.  In the historical situation you refer
to there very clearly were -- the requirement that in order to
vote one must prove that one could read combined with the illegality
of teaching negros (the term of the times in question) how to read.

So tell me, Gordon cannot read?  Because we refused to teach him how?

This is the most preposterous claim you have yet made.

The ONLY reason that Gordon could not vote is because HE CHOSE NOT
TO READ THE NOTIFICATIONS THAT HAD BEEN POSTED TO THE GROUP!!!!!!!

To compare the current situation with the one you have selected
is entirely inappropriate.

Until you can learn how to properly draw situational parallels, 
don't even attempt it.  You just make yourself look paranoid
"*They* are trying to stop *us* from voting on newsgroup reorganizations!" 
(personally I suspect the Communists...)

		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@uLogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Extensive studies have shown that 93% of all statistics are meaningless.

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:36:52 GMT

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>>Now, which documentation are they supposed to read?  You see, there's lots of
>>documentation, which is supposed to handle lots of different problems.  
>Hold on a minute. The problem used to be, not too long ago, not enough
>documentation. "Where is it written..." was the cry of the confused. Now
>there's lots. 

Which still leads to "Where is it written...?" as the cry of the confused.

>>Usenet documentation, as is, is more of an excuse to pummel users with "why
>>didn't you read the documentation?" than a true information source. `
>The cry has not been "I didn't understand the documentation", it has
>been "I haven't read the documentation." That, certainly, is the user's
>fault. 

See? More pummeling. 

>And, if they read it and still don't understand, and they don't
>ask, then that, too, is their fault. 

Novice: <question>
Bozo: <FLAAAAME!>
Novice: (tail between legs) Yipe! Yipe!
Bozo: (smug look)

You wonder why many people don't ask questions? If I witnessed the 
above and was new I'd keep my mouth shut too.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

It has been said that man is a rational animal.  All my life I have
been searching for evidence which could support this.
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:55:22 GMT

gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

>In article <1992Dec17.173313.11161@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
>	hades@Dartmouth.Edu writes:

>> gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
>> 
>> >I'd like to strongly encourage people to indicate first, second, and third
>> >choices.
>> 
>>     That makes it a little tough for Mike to tally the votes. How about
>> people assign weights to their choices: 3 for first choice, 2 for second
>> choice, and 1 for third choice. That way we could have total weight
>> given to a name, as well as total votes given to a name.


Hello Brian,

How are you?  Yeah, it is kind of tough putting this together.
Some people have given one choice, others two, some have even
listed all the names in order of preference (like 10 or 11 names).
For my own sanity, I have kept a tally of the first three choices.
Since this is all very informal, just to give a rough idea of
what people on USENET are thinking, I haven't done any more than that.

There was some mention about the RFD being premature.  I truly
don't believe that was the case for two reasons.  First, there was
some discussion about the name before I posted the new and 
improved 1st RFD.  Second, and more important, according to the
guidelines, the RFD is just that -- discussion.  And from my point
of view it has certainly served its purpose, in light of the number
of posts regarding this proposed newsgroup.  The guidelines are set
up so that we can take the first RFD and mold it into a more or less agreed
upon 2nd RFD, or even a third if necessary.  

I believe we are doing just fine so far.  There has been very little
flamage and not too much recalcitrance (just enough to keep things 
interesting).  As I have stated before, and as I have been told
in numerous e-mail messages, people really want this newsgroup
to work. They are excited about it, as am I.  If we continue
to work together in the spirit of compromise and goodwill, I
believe we can make this thing happen.

Happy Holidays,

Mike
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:26:31 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Dec9.221138.19569@bcrka451.bnr.ca>, nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
> In article <1864@frackit.UUCP> dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
> > In article <669@ulogic.UUCP>, hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
> > > Dave, nobody said that fantasy involves science fiction.  They said the
> > > *.sf.* heirarchy involves both science fiction and fantasy, separately
> > > and together.

> > > Of course it could still use a better name. 		:)

> >Well, that's something I agree with. In my mind, at least, there is a
> >clear separation between Fantasy and SCIENCE Fantasy. But then, I'm an
> >old line SF fan so some of my ideas are a bit, er, uhm.... archaic? :)

> So the problem is the "sf", which implies "Science Fiction"?  But "SF"
> also means "Speculative Fiction", which embraces both SciFi and Fantasy.

Except that when I, and I'll wager a lot of others, see "SF" we think of
Science Fiction and not Speculative Fiction. The term Speculative
Fiction has always struck me as being a marketing scheme by publishers
trying to blur the line and sell more of what they weren't able to move
before. 

> So there's no reason Fantasy can't be discussed in "rec.arts.sf" groups.

As I just wrote to Richard I'm leaning towards agreement on his .f-sf.*
currently being discussed. But, there's still some reluctance in my mind
that'll probably disappear with time, right after I finish reading _The
Face of the Waters_ (Silverberg). It seems to be one of those books that
sits atop the blurred line. 

-- 
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 - or - ..uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave                      |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
                                                         | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: STRAW VOTE ON NAME FOR NATIVE AMERICANS NEWSGROUP
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:42:57 GMT

jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:



>Okey-dokey.  It's becoming increasingly clear that what we need here, to avoid
>the "my name is best," "no it's not" stuff that's otherwise going to take a
>native Americans newsgroup down in flames, is a straw poll.

>Anyone want to volunteer to be vote-taker?

>I'd suggest the following as possible names, with people of course being free
>to suggest others:

>soc.culture.native
>soc.culture.native.american (recognizing that there is no soc.culture.native
>                             group for this to hang under at present)
>soc.culture.amerind
>soc.culture.native-america
>soc.culture.indigenous
>soc.culture.???

>Comments?

Hello JFK,

Since I began this, I'll do all I can to make it work, including
taking a straw poll. (Unless there is an unstated etiquette about
straw polls and RFD creators that I'm not aware of.)

How long does one of these straw polls last?

Thanks,

Mike


==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:37:23 GMT

phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie) writes:

>A general query to the net admins - how often do you have trouble with 
>readers of mailing lists not reading mail, or disk filling up due to mailing
>list volume?  Does it seem to be more work than the newgroup work, and news
>volume handling?

News volume is much more of a problem.  And politically, it's much easier
to justify disk/time to handle email (which is considered essential) than
to justify disk/time to handle news (which is not).
-- 
	"You can't get here from here."
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:52:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.174347.17435@midway.uchicago.edu> greg@dent.uchicago.edu (Greg Kuperberg) writes:

   Therefore I PROPOSE that the protocol for a call for votes be changed
   so that in the future, yes votes must exceed twice no votes by 200 votes
   before a newsgroup is created. In other words,

   Y >= 200+2*N

Will the proposed protocol improve the new group creation process?
The goals of the process are: maximize customer satisfaction; minimize
resource utilization.

By customers I mean the owners of the news sites.  By resources I mean
the network traffic and the time spent by news admins.

The appropriate rationale for creating a new group is that the traffic
is already there, in a mailing list or a group that needs to be split
due to heavy traffic.  The existing protocol was written with the
assumption in mind that a newsgroup costs more to distribute than a
mailing list while the membership is less than 100.  The validity of
this assumption obviously varies depending upon the amount of traffic
on the topic, but is most dependent upon the size of Usenet.  Given
that Usenet has grown while the number has not changed, a new rule
should be adopted.

However, rather than raising the number from 100 to 200, the new rule
should instead figure in the number of Usenet sites and the existing
traffic on the topic.  The latter might be difficult to measure.
Perhaps it could be arrived at by consensus during the discussion
period.

By the same rationale, we should consider turning some low-traffic
newsgroups into mailing lists.

Incidentally, it is interesting to examine the recent votes in Dave
Lawrence's article <1g0ksmINNmrd@news.UU.NET> ("New USENET Groups"),
here and in news.announce.newgroups.  Under the new protocol, Only 1/5
survive.  All "rec", "soc", and "talk" proposals fail, save one.  It
would be nice if someone with more vote results archived would apply
the proposed rule to them and report the results.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:16:06 GMT

barr@pop.psu.edu (David Barr) writes:
>amc@wucs1.wustl.edu (Adam Costello) writes:
>>I don't see why there should be no-votes at all.

>	I hereby call for discussion of the newsgroup
>comp.protocols.tcp-ip.eniac.  Next week I'll propose rec.sex.  I'm
>sure I can get 200 votes for those groups.  1/2  :-)

And just how long will it be before 200 people cast their votes for
rec.arts.binaries.pictures.erotica.* ?

--
Michael Adams				| Science without religion is lame;
Actuarial Science Program @ UIUC	| religion without science is blind.
StarOwl@uiuc.edu (NeXTmail OK)		| 		-- Thomas Edison
an692@anon.penet.fi (anonymously)	| NBCS: B1f+t-w+g+k++s+me+h-qv	     
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Re: How can I get my site to carry more groups
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 22:05:41 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

lagrangj@unvax.union.edu (Joshua C. LaGrange) writes:

>boehme@unvax.union.edu (Eric M. Boehm) writes:

[two entire previous posts deleted]

>I'm sorry if Eric was offended.  I don't think that my post should have offend
>ed him, but I guess it's possible.  I did send him a message asking for an over
>view of what groups were available to him, but apparently, he did not receive
>it, or he lost it, or something.  I sent him an apology and explanation earlier
>today.  My problem seems to be solved by membership in a public-access group
>(well, hopefully).

Looks like the first thing you need to do, Josh, is read the newuser
and net.ettequet documents and learn why is is impolite to quote 
more text than necessary to make your point.

Second thing you need to do is if you don't like the level of news sevice
you're getting, get off your ass and do something about it.  You have
exactly the same resources available to you as Eric does to locate 
new groups.  YOU go find what additional stuff you want to receive and
where to get it from and send Eric a note.  I'm sure he'll set it up
for you.  

Close to 1000 groups is a pretty good feed.  If you read a significant
portion of that and still want more, perhaps you ought to examine what
you're doing with your life, sitting in front of a terminal all day and
night.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 16 Dec 1992 16:04:36 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Dec16.005836.8397@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>Well, I know what I did. There were times that YOUR followup to line was
>set to something interesting (i.e.  r.m.s. or other) and I don't know
>if I caught all of those or not. 

Why, if you only redirected followups back into r.m.s once, did Rich Kulawiec
ask you on no less than three occasions to stop doing it?

>>>>No; it implies that you should be careful about where, how, and how much to
>>>>complain.
>>>On Usenet? Hardly.
>>On Usenet? Especially. After all, heaven knows things get magnified in
>>importance on here... :-)
>Only in the minds of those who deem this important.

Right. If this is not important, then why are you raising such a stink?

Or are you doing as Joel Furr accused me of with his flamethrower, and arguing
just to inflate your ego?

>>>I'm not hurting anyone. Sorry. Unless people can be hurt by my words, in
>>>which case they are giving me a LOT of power.
>>Your actions in ignoring this vote, and flaming about it in rec.music.synth,
>>are directly responsible for the bad things you're claiming are happening to
>>the synth community. You ARE hurting people, at least to the extent that
>>you're claiming people are being hurt by all this.
>*poing*

*poing*, yourself.

If you were to do as I suggested when you asked for suggestions, this would
all be over now, and the synth community would be recovering. As it is, you're
like an alcoholic who cannot admit that he has a problem.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: cherokee@cscns.com (Jim Black Eagle)
Subject: Re: How about soc.culture.america.tribal?
Organization: Community_News_Service
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 09:32:14 GMT

IMHO, "tribal" is a demeaning term that carries connotations of
inferiority, and was coined to make our people look just that--inferior. 
We are NATIONS, not tribes.

"soc.culture.native.american" is a nice idea, because as it has been
observed earlier, that makes room for other native/indigenous newsgroups
from around the world.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Jim Blackeagle
cherokee@cscns.com