HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: Essay Time for Felix  (Was: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:55:10 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <C1F5vA.DIr@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:
>I was asking Felix a specific question -- what is the significant
>difference between that kind of moral reasoning Felix uses to arrive
>at the conclusion apartheid is a bad thing, and the kind other
>people use to arrive at the despised conclusion that, say, spying
>on someone on a mud is a bad thing.  He refuses to admit that he
>uses exactly the same sort of moralistic reasoning I and everyone
>else does, because it would mean recanting a lot of earlier
>posturing.

Jim, I can't even begin to tell you how naive your apparent belief
that rights arise from some kind of universal agreement on what rights
are is.  Felix, quite rightly, believes that there is no such animal
as an objective moral code.  He has his own moral code.  I have mine.
You have yours.  On some things, they're congruent...and on others, 
they aren't.  Think carefully -- are you *sure* that any rights
derived from the majority moral opinion of a given society are good
and universal?

And of *course* Felix uses the same sort of reasoning you do.  And
everyone does.  The difference is that he recognizes that *his*
morals ain't universal.  

-- 
Bryant Durrell					   durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 I feed on the flesh of the living, and I vote.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny,alt.angst,alt.romance,soc.women
From: petitc@nuge115.its.rpi.edu (Christopher Jon Petit)
Subject: Re: Xibo on relationships (Was: Re: Strange Days Indeed.....)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:11:01 GMT

>In article <XIBO.93Jan20005322@ziggy.fido.econ.arizona.edu> xibo@fido.econ.arizona.edu (Mr. Coates) writes:

>>Wow.  I've never really thought about it this way, but y'know, it
>>really does seem to work out that way.  Either it's obvious very
>>early on that there's going to be boinking action / intamacy, or
>>it ends up in a months-long quest with little reward and ultimately
>>ends in failure.

  I'd tend to agree.  Not so extreme, but I do think that the 'tone' of a
relationship is set early on.  If there's gonna be more than just friendship,
there'll be at least a bit of flirting or some expression of romantic
interest.

  But, do remember dude, it only sets a 'tone'---and tones can change, albet
VERY slowly.  If you want the tone to change, you've gotta do it very slowly
and gradually.

-- 
"Protect endangered species!  Contribute to the Exxon Supporter's Fund!"
"Pay no attention to that little man behind the keyboard."
"If you want to look for fish, best not to look in desert."
"The greatest beauty in the world is beauty that is private."
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Philosophising (was Re: Ego Tripping)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:13:18 GMT

In article <C0vuyG.6x8@math.okstate.edu> russ@math.okstate.edu (Roman D.) writes:
>CONCLUSION: Random is laughing at a group, but it's okay, because it includes
>himself.

Sure thing, Random.

>Descartes would be proud, except he doesn't exist

"Did Descartes/Depart/with the thought/'therefore I'm not'?"
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Essay Time for Felix (Was: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:17:55 GMT

In article <UfNaLD600WCSEOrlAr@andrew.cmu.edu> Edwin Huang <eh1s+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Let's take Jim's analogies further. You are offended at the portrayal of
>women by a certain author, you don't read his books, right?

Not only that, but you feel free to tell other people "this author treats
women really shitty in his books".

>I believe Felix is saying you are a complete idiot. I quite agree. In
>other words, I believe aparthied is a bad thing. I believe that mud
>logging is such an insignificant topic that only people like Jim Miller
>and Ken Aromdee would spend so much time and bandwidth obsessing over
>it.

Well, true, except for Ken Aromdee [sic].

But you make one big mistake here.  You attempt to derive some sort of
correlation between posts and obsession.  If someone posts here too many times,
they are obviously a few corpses short of a Chicago election.

While I don't post things I don't mean at all, I am not under the delusion that
anything we say here has all that much relevance.  That's why I've been
speaking in general terms and not mentioning the word "logging" or names of
lynchable muds or mudders.  You've all been reading your own personal paranoias
into it, when you think I've been talking about You and Your Mud and Logging
on Your Mud.  (The mere fact that I still go There should suffice to rebut
this.)

Read the apartheid discussion as me responding to Felix being really dumb,
instead of me trying to shout about mud fascism from the rooftops.  Your
blood pressure may go down somewhat.

If I can convince people, hey that's great.  If not, well, I got some
intellectual exercise and a .signature quote out of it.  It doesn't really
matter.  *shrug*
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad)
Subject: Re: Final Reponse to Jim Spew? (Was: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights)
Organization: Aggie? What precisely is an Aggie?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:48:08 GMT

In <C1FC90.EtE@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:

>And if you're not worried about getting people to play your mud, you
>don't have to respect them or grant that they have rights as people
>or any of that peon ass-kissing stuff.

There is nothing in this paragraph which is factually false, by anyone's 
argument.  If someone is not concerned with people playing their mud, they
really really can do what they want unless a higher authority (site admin,
net admin, war god, that kind of thing) shuts them down.  What they should
do is not the point; they can.

>Yeah, we *know*, Russ.  SpaceMadness is off in its own, special
>little universe, we'll grant you that, ok?

Wrong.  See above.

You just DON'T get it, do you?  You can TRY and turn what I said into 'ah
HA, it's just Random out to GET ME LIKE ALWAYS AIEEEE FROTH FROTH FROTH'
but that's just tummeling.

-Random
oh, well, everyone should have a hobby, I guess

-- 
---------------------===Comedy!  Sudden, violent comedy!===--------------------
Russ Smith -- russ@math.okstate.edu  |  "This is the Nineties, Bubba, and
  Don Random of the "Random Gang"    |   there is no such thing as Paranoia.
What a pinhead! Does he not fear us? |   It's all true." -- Hunter S Thompson
From: tanis@acs.bu.edu (Darrell Morrone)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: the pitch....
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:23:12 GMT
Distribution: rec.games.mud.tiny
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

As a good producer knows...every film begins with a pitch...where the writer
tries to convey the relevance and appeal of his or her script to the
executives in hopes of making the dream a reality. So I'll cut to the chase
and throw this one your way.....


    After having Mushed, Mused, Mugged, Mucked my way around for the past
three years, I have hopped on most of what you will find on the unofficial
list that pops up now and then. I've admined on some, played on others, yet
never was able to create my own due to site restrictions and my general
dysfunction with raw code...but ideas are something I have readily available.

    I wish to take part in and help create a Mush loosely based on a film
that many will instantly recognize, Bladerunner. After watching the film
numerous times, I can see the possibility of Police Forces, Replicant as well
as human gang warfare, and the ever-present squad of BladeRunners. I wish
not to get too far into the details and programming aspects of the idea
(which lurk in my doc files), but am seeking a band of programmers and
mushers that are interested to contact me so that this idea may reach
virtual reality status. There is no code or site as of yet, but this remains
up to the rest of the Mushing public. Please feel free to contact me
at tanis@ACS.BU.EDU with responses.

Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jgm@ais.org (jim miller)
Subject: Re: Essay Time for Felix  (Was: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights)
Organization: Ann Arbor Information Society -- Logansport Annex
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 10:47:35 GMT


ckincy@cs.umr.edu (Charles Kincy) writes:

>Ok, I'll say it.  Administrators are capable of acting incorrectly.
>However, their stupidity will be its own punishment.  No need to
>codify a "bill of players' rights".


That sort of "invisible hand" approach works well for choosing the
best hotel to stay in or buying the best battery (sometimes),
but in issues where people's "rights" can be threatened, not very well.
That is why there are agencies to which people can appeal for
help in our society.

The "bill of player's rights" was never meant to be binding, only
be a guiding force for behavior for administrators and other users
alike, so that over time there will grow to be fewer problems
for mud users.


>Then why did you respond to me, and save this for the *second*
>response?  Sounds like someone's getting a *wee* bit frustrated.
>Good.  Now you know how we group readers with an exaggerated
>sense of reality feel.


Charles Kincy, Voice of the We Group Readers?

-- 
"On a makeshift outboard canoe, Debbie sailed to New York, where she was soon
adopted by a nice upper-middle class Protestant family, who introduced her to
record producer Fred Zarr-- and the rest was history." -lafolle@ucscb.ucsc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu (James H. Kiley)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:32:02 GMT

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>In article <mumble> rhodesia@wixer.cactus.org (Felix S. Gallo) writes:
>>2) I believe that apartheid is wrong.  I believe that apartheid is morally
>>unethical.  I do not believe that blacks have rights under apartheid, because
>>that's what apartheid's all about -- denying privileges to the other guys.
>>Rights are what the oppressed in South Africa *are trying to get*.

[Initial, apparently conciliatory paragraph of Ken's snipped]

>But I doubt this.  You now call apartheid morally unethical--even if the 
>whitesget away with it.  Yet, you used to say that there are no such things as
>absolute ethics that still exist when unenforced.  And to call apartheid
>"morally unethical", even if the blacks can't stop the whites, is a prime
>example of exactly the kind of absolute ethical principle you just finished
>saying doesn't exist.

>Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)

	No, Ken, read the above paragraph again.  Felix's, I mean.  Do
you see the words 'I believe', which appear not once but twice?  Felix
believes that apartheid is wrong.  That is to say, in Felix's belief system,
apartheid is wrong.  
	Careful, now, things get tricky here:
	This is not the same as Felix saying that apartheid is a universal
Evil and that The Absolute Ethical System says that Apartheid Is Bad.  Felix
feels that it is wrong.  He's not calling on any absolutism to do this.

	Bored enough to post
	Jim Kiley
	jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: dgreen@jarthur.claremont.edu (David Green)
Subject: Re: The society analogy and rights (Was: Re: Essay Time for Felix)
Keywords: Yeah, right.
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 05:12:14 GMT

In some article russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad) writes:
->yes, I know, I could've ended three paragraphs back, sue me

You'll hear from my lawyer tomorrow.  I have that right, you know.
-- 
dgreen@jarthur.claremont.edu		        	   David "Mishael" Green
		    Have you scritched your local Furry today? 
************************Who ordered the muon? -- I. I. Rabi*********************
  I have not been appointed Judge, Jury, or Executioner by God.  Just witness.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:32:31 GMT

In article <C16zJC.62J@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> jwtlai@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Jim W "GrimJim" Lai) writes:
[deleted]

Indeed, showing that Felix's arguments against ethics on muds also "prove"
that apartheid is not wrong as long as the whites get away with it, is unlikely
to convince Felix.  It may do something for public opinion, or at least non-SM
public opinion, though.
--
"Are you going with the fallacious assumption that we all think alike just
because we're superior to just about anyone else?"
	-- Felix Gallo, about the alleged Random Gang

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: mwilson@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Zaphod Beeblebrox)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Essay Time for Felix  (Was: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights)
Date: 25 Jan 93 06:24:45 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA

In article <C1A2py.4ou@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:
>
>1.  Explain the substantive difference between the elusive "it"
>    the blacks in South Africa don't have, and the lofty, muddle-
>    headed "rights" that Ken and I go on about but in which there's
>    no point because it's just a silly abstraction unless there's
>    someone with a sharp stick present to dole them out.  In
>

Substantive Difference:  You get annoyed by your lack of rights on a MU*,
you turn the power off and go to Burger King.  Where's the power switch
for Aparthied?

It's amazing the conversations that go on here.  I wish several of you would
go put a paper clip in the electrical socket.  If you live through, maybe
you'll be able to tell the difference between Real Life (Burger Kings) and
Virtual Reality (I'm sure somebody's MU* has a Burger King, but I doubt
you'll actually taste it.)

-- 
| Mike Wilson | You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.         |
|   Va Tech   | If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.    |
|  UnderGrad  | You can choose from phantom fears, and kindness that can kill |
|Comp. Science| I will chose a path that's clear, I will chose Free Will.-RUSH|
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: Aggie? What precisely is an Aggie?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:57:21 GMT

In <1993Jan21.213231.4019@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>Indeed, showing that Felix's arguments against ethics on muds also "prove"
>that apartheid is not wrong as long as the whites get away with it, is unlikely
>to convince Felix.  It may do something for public opinion, or at least non-SM
>public opinion, though.

There is no doubt some stunning logic behind adding "at least non-SM people"
in this context, but frankly, I don't have the energy to be interested.

Ken.

Listen.

If you don't like the MUSH.

SHUT UP ABOUT IT.  It isn't coming looking for you.  (Image of a MUSH marching
around the city yelling "DINSDALE!" elided.)

Thank you.

-Random
I thought this was fairly obvious, really

-- 
---------------------===Comedy!  Sudden, violent comedy!===--------------------
Russ Smith -- russ@math.okstate.edu  |  "This is the Nineties, Bubba, and
  Don Random of the "Random Gang"    |   there is no such thing as Paranoia.
What a pinhead! Does he not fear us? |   It's all true." -- Hunter S Thompson
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:05:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.122206.12910@athena.mit.edu> ghudson@athena.mit.edu (Greg Hudson) writes:
>You make the error of assuming that common language use follows strict
>logical rules.  Felix's statement, "I believe apartheid is wrong," may
>be an appeal to objective ethics if decomposed blindly, but proponents
>of subjective ethics commonly use such statements to mean something as
>weak as, "Apartheid offends my sensibilities."

Felix might not be truly appealing to objective ethics, but then, am I?  Why
take Felix's words as intended, but take my own absolutely literally?

The characteristic important to what I have abbreviated to "objective" ethics
is that they exist despite the helplessness of the "victims".  When Felix
calls apartheid "wrong", he is using ethics with this characteristic.  Thus the
contradiction remains, even though neither of us _really_ means _objective_
ethics.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: garvey@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (Heather Garvey)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Mua'kaar Returns!
Date: 27 Jan 1993 15:49:55 GMT
Organization: Smith Undergraduate Lab, CWRU, Cleve. OH, 44106, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: solarium.scl.cwru.edu

tuff@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>Heavily role-playing oriented, it is also possessing of such systems as a
>full character generation system complete with attributes, magic, and
>social station, a combat system, a military resolution system, weather,
>time, natural disasters, economy, ecology, and a full dynamic spatial system
>that allows for over 600,000 dynamic rooms, spanning from the top of the
>atmosphere to the lowest ocean trenches, through vast tracts of forest and
>desert and mountains...

	It just doesn't have any damn HEALING COMMANDS so the five or
six of us Healers have had to badger the Admin for the past two months 
hoping that eventually we'd have something to do other that sit around,
yawn and explore the city for the fiftieth time....
	A truly amazing place and I like it enough to stick with it 
after two months of no Healer commands, but ARGH! It's *not* a finished
MU* by a long shot....

--
	"Ahh, we were just talking about you."     | Heather "Moose" Garvey
	"That's refreshing, Jenner --              | Biochemistry - CWRU '93
	 Usually you're screaming about us."       | <hlg@po.cwru.edu>
		-- "The Secret of NIMH"            | "Wooooooah, PIZZA!"
Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 22:29:52 -0500 
From: Robert Everett Brunskill <rb6t+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: THE ORIGIN OF ": )"

Whoops, forgot this:

B-]
From: peacock5293@iscsvax.uni.edu (Greywolf)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Mecha Combat on Furry and other MU*
Date: 27 Jan 93 13:10:22 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Hi!  I rarely check out this newsgroup, as I mostly just read alt.fan.furry,
but I was curious to find out if there are any MUCKs, MUSHes, MUSEs or whatnot
that deal with "giant Japanese robots", mecha, BattleTech or whatever.  Over on
FurryMUCK (138.74.0.10 8888), my recent ongoing project has been to construct a
"Mecha Arena", which handles combat with up to 12 mecha (the actual number is
arbitrary -- just depends on how many pennies I want to spend on building =) ),
and has a feature which allows you to reselect your mecha type from a list of
choices.  (i.e. I'm using some vehicle code, and the select program changes the
name, desc, etc. of the vehicle, and sets various props on it used for the
program.)  I'm not really clear on the differences between MUCKs, MUSEs and
MUSHes, so my program might not be portable -- still, at least my *system*
might be of some use to somebody on a BattleTech or mecha-oriented MU*
somewhere.  =)  If you're interested in finding out more about the Mecha Arena
or if you have any info on a BattleTech/mecha-oriented MU*, please drop me some
email, or else swing by FurryMUCK and contact "Greywolf".

Later!
-- 
-Jordan            ..      PEACOCK5293@iscsvax.uni.edu
                  .OO.     Jordan Peacock (Jordan Greywolf)
                  O/\O     (New Address):  1610 Parker
                   --                      Cedar Falls, IA  50613
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: rhodesia@wixer.cactus.org (Felix S. Gallo)
Subject: Re: Shame
Followup-To: misc.test
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:35:03 GMT

jwtlai@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Jim W "GrimJim" Lai) continues a long thread:
>My hypothesis is that a feeling of shame (or humiliation) is a major cause of
>long-threads. 

Your cutting, precise analysis of the situation has been noted.

>Shame.  Even loathesome politicians speaking seldom dog a point this bad short
>of a filibuster.

Check one:

	[] I realize the hypocrisy of my statement and am going to
	   commit seppuku as soon as possible.

	[] I am yet another Canadian who has mistaken his hockey
	   stick for a sense of humor.



Rhodesia
yes, yes, I know, go ahead
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Felix Sebastian Gallo                              rhodesia@wixer.cactus.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows)
Subject: Re:  Can a wizard threaten you in RL????
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 14:31:47 GMT


All I can say about this whole controversy is that I've glad I've
never been on Qwest, and plan to stay well away from it in the
future.  From this little debacle, I can see that Qwest must be
the touchiest MU* on the face of the planet.  I've done things
more annoying by far than simply asking 20 women to jump out of a
birthday cake, but haven't even come close to being banned for it.
Sheesh!

--
Chris Meadows  | Robotech/RIFTS/Palladium fanfic author/editor                  
CHM173S@SMSVMA | They Might Be Giants about Star Trek aliens:                   
CHM173S@VMA.SMSU.EDU   | "Everybody wants prosthetic foreheads                  
CMEADOWS@NYX.CS.DU.EDU | on their real heads!"                                  
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny