HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steyn@cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Subject: Re: Bach undervalued? (was: Beethoven - overvalued?)
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 12:53:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.081107.21503@cs.ruu.nl> clldomps@cs.ruu.nl (Louis van Dompselaar) writes:
>In <7166@charon.cwi.nl> vanloon@cwi.nl (Maarten van Loon) writes:
>
>>Yes. Bach comes first. I think it's time to ask: why is Bach so undervalued?
>>I see relatively too less article on Bach. And after all, he was the
>>greatest composer ever.
>>
>Especially when you know that someone once sorted out that about
>xx% of Mozart's work could be directly related back to work of Bach.
>(in that he used Bach's structures, parts of melodies, or whatever)
>(N.B. as I'm not sure about the exact percentage, I won't make a
>claim here. Maybe someone else knows).

Actually, I think the percentage is probably pretty small.  Mozart didn't 
really discover Bach until fairly late in life.  (Or at least, so I
reacall from my classes on him).  Once he did, he started doing some more
interesting counterpoint, but I understand that not even all of that is 
really related to Bach's work.

  Personally, I think that this greatest composer of all time idea is
pretty silly, but diff'ren strokes and all that, I guess.

Gavin Steyn
steyn@cs.rochester.edu
"So he's had the lifelong ambition of reversing the polarity of the earth?"
From: givler@bermuda.cbm.commodore.com (Greg Givler)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: records-database
Date: 2 Sep 92 15:09:11 GMT
Organization: Another Amiga UNIX System

In article <1992Aug31.222510.18481@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>In article <CB.92Aug31153656@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
[Stuff about Data Bases for records and CD's deleted]

>Now, IF your workstation plays CDs, and IF those CDs had some
>standard way of identifying themselves to the player, THEN ....
>Naahhh.  That would be too easy.

Actually, according to the Spec of CD's each CD is to have a 
unique number identifying it. In fact I was working on a 
CD player for the CDTV which Commodore manufactures that
would catalog your CD's for you. Also it would remember the
order in which you played the tracks, if you wanted to, so 
you would never have to hear those unwanted tracks on a CD 
ever again. Maybe I should start working on it again. The
problem is that some CD-ROM drives are not sensitive enough 
to read the Product Code information off of the CD. So then
the program has to get more creative to identify the disk, like 
look at the total number of tracks and the total time, and hope 
that two disks aren't exactly the same. Of course then it could
ask the user, I have either this disk or that and you select 
the right one with the mouse. Now don't all you CDTV owners 
go out and steal this Idea, I have a copyright on the idea.
(c) copyright Gregory P. Givler Sept. 1992 :-)


Greg

-- 
Greg Givler                 | "If you're not going to kill me,
Commodore Product Assurance | I have things to do." - From Darkman
givler@cbmvax.commodore.com |
===============================================================================
From: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Last Night of the Proms / words
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:21:21 GMT
Reply-To: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Open Software Foundation

In article <1992Aug26.195959.24355@menudo.uh.edu> chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>>
>>Why shouldn't Britain as a whole be permitted a bit of
>>nationalistic nonsense occasionally? The Last Night is a pretty harmless
>>event, even if the audience does have a substantial moronic contingent.
>>
>>Martin Watts.
>
>And I was going to be polite and merely refer to them as Young Conservatives...

You didn't really expect me to keep quiet about this and Jack's comment,
did you?  Speaking as one who was never a Young Conservative (although the
Prommers did include some of them)...

The Last Night audience consists, broadly, of those who won tickets in the
ballot (or got tickets from those who did) and season ticket holders.  For
three years I was one of the latter, and usually we were "up front".

Yes, there was boisterous behaviour.  But consider this.  These were the
same people who (in one of my years) *stood* through Kontakte, Monteverdi's
16xx Vespers, all the Beethoven symphonies, Handel's "Semele", a
first-and-last-performance of something dreadful by Peter Maxwell Davies...
a memorable Sibelius 5th after which Barbirolli took the time to commend
the youthful audience for its intense concentration through the last
page... on and on for 50 concerts.  Nobody could gainsay our dedication to
the Muse.

When we've done all that, don't you think we deserve a party?  Nobody takes
the imperialistic words too seriously, but it's a good sing.

We were somewhat resentful of the behaviour of the one-shot ticket holders,
who were variously characterized as being from Manchester or Southampton,
but to be honest the regulars did make as much noise (and please don't make
me admit who hit Malcolm Arnold on the nose with a streamer, on-camera).

And I never knew any regular who sat it out in the pub.  You'd have to be
extraordinarily stuffy to do that.

If anything has changed in a generation, I'd be amazed.  My son recently
spent a week Promming, and everything seems much the same.
-- 
David Brooks					dbrooks@osf.org
Open Software Foundation			uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Five more months!  Five more months!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: eric <eschramm@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Furtwangler Otello
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:47:16 GMT


 Could someone give an appraisal of the Vinay/Furtwangler/Salzburg Otello?
 How does it compare with the Vinay/Toscanini recording, in terms of 
 interpretation, overall cast, sound quality? Thanks.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Shostakovich's musical joke
In-reply-to: mikulska@bessel.Princeton.EDU's message of 26 Aug 92 21:07:18 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Aug26.210718.23583@Princeton.EDU>
Date: 27 Aug 92 12:17:57 CDT

Margaret Mikulska writes:

   a "satirical cantata" in the form of a discussion, sort of,
   what kind of music _should_ be written and what kind is "degenerate" and
   to be avoided.

Sounds reminiscent of Schoenberg's piece "Tonal or Atonal", a most weighty
discussion of music theory. :-)

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com

PS.  I might not have the title exactly right.
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: 30 Aug 92 09:44:34 GMT
Reply-To: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga

In article <1992Aug29.020131.24741@cs.rochester.edu> steyn@cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn) writes:
[...reactions to music...]
>They're almost never really the same, but I don't think most listeners
>would classify the last movement of Beethoven's fifth symphony as being
>sad.

My father would have described it as "hollerin' and screamin'"
which shows that even two people in the same family in the same
room have different reactions.

>  I think the similarity is necessary, because if there were no overlaps, 
>the composer wouldn't really have any points of contact with the listener.
>On the other hand, the "similar ways" are pretty broad in scope.  For
>example, I might feel a piece is joyous, while you may feel it is triumphant,
>while a third person may feel that it's just plain energetic.

While someone else may simply ignore it.

Another Cage anecdote:  One day his mother was watching TV when a
rock music program came on, and she didn't change the channel.
When he asked if the music bothered her, she said, "oh, I'm not
picky about music."  Then added, "But then, you're not picky about
music either, are you?"


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

(Whose 'reply' and 'followup' in 'rn' are working again!)

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Winterreise
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:57:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.205043.11128@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>I've been listening to two versions:  Schreier/Richter on Philips,
>and a newish recording on Channel Classics with Max van Egmond
>(fortepiano) and Jos van Immerseel (baritone).  Both are wonderful.
       ^--------------------------------^

Instruments or performers' names reversed.  But perhaps that would
be interesting to hear ...

... anybody know of any switcheroo recordings?



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: icking@gmd.de (Werner Icking)
Subject: Re: *NEW* FAX # for Breitkopf und Haertel, WEISBADEN needed
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:44:40 GMT

In <XH2HqB3w164w@uuisis.isis.org> meyer@uuisis.isis.org (Katherine Meyer) writes:

>Does any one have the *CURRENT* fax number for Breitkopf und Haertel in
>   *WIESBADEN*??

This is from VLB (the german BIP):

            Verlag: Breitkopf & Haertel
           Strasse: Walkmuehlstr 52
          Postfach: 1707
             Stadt: Dw 6200 Wiesbaden
   ISBN-Verlagsnr.: 3-7651
   Verlagskurzbez.: Breitkopf & Haertel Taunusst.
             Telex: 4182647 eb d
           Telefax: Fax (0611) 45008-59, Taunusstein (06128) 8164,86416
           Telefon: 0611-45008-0, Taunusstein (06128) 6352, 8201

That means: Wiesbaden     +49 611-45008-59  
            Taunusstein   +49 6128 8164
                     or   +49 6128 86416

>I have a fax number for them, 611-4903-59 but it does not seem [...]

Do you need glasses? I do - I'm older than 40 :-)

Werner
--
Werner Icking           icking@gmd.de            (+49 2241) 14-2443     __o
GMD - Gesellschaft fuer Mathematik und Datenverarbeitung mbH          _`\<,_
Schloss Birlinghoven, P.O.Box 1316, D-5205 Sankt Augustin, Germany   (_)/ (_)
                             "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod." ~~~~~~~~~~~
From: jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:52:55 GMT
Organization: Credence Systems Corp. Beaverton, OR

In article <BtH12G.Brz@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:

>the only reason someone would not like music by a particular composer
>is unfamiliarity.  Do you really think that is the only reason modern
>composers are rejected by the public?

If you mean unfamiliarity with the idiom, then I say, yes, absolutely.
Unfamiliarity coupled with a lack of desire to change it. And what's more,
you haven't a shred of evidence to indicate otherwise.

But your premise is wrong. Modern composers are not rejected by the 
public. Adams's "Harmonielehre" got a standing ovation here in Portland.
Among people who know his work, Cage has far more admirers than
detractors. Open your eyes and your ears; the world goes on its own
way despite whatever you might believe about it.

And, oh yes, Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg - there's nothing modern
about these people, at least in the temporal sense. (If you want to talk
about postmodern vs. modern, that changes things.) Atonality is over 70
years old. Expanded tonality is even older. With these guys, you're
beating on a controversy that was current maybe 50 years ago.

					Jeff Winslow
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 03:05:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.012511.21262@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>In article <BtGxsA.BKG@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:

>>As I pointed out in the upcoming paragraph, the reason Roger (and you) can't
>>accept my analogy is that you can't accept that art exists for an objective
>>purpose.  The problem is not that I have not made an argument, but rather,
>>that you don't accept my argument because one of it's premises is that
>>art must have a purpose in order to be valuable, and that purposeless art
>>is of necessity valueless, and according to my definition of art, not even 
>>art.  How do you know that there are no objective standards for evaluating
>>art?  I think one can evaluate art just as objectively as one can evaluate 
>>a medicine.

>Well, I'm glad you accept that it is *your* definition of art,
>because, outside of the Stalinist USSR and Maoist China, I can't think
>of anyone else in the twentieth century who would agree with you. 

Gee, I can think of hundreds of them.  Some of them even post here in r.m.c.
Besides, even if the official musical policies of the USSR & the PRC were
similar to mine, would that prove them wrong?  Their offical policies on the
laws of physics are similar to mine too, but that doesn't make me wrong there 
either.  An important difference between myself and them is that I am
exploring the subject with a mind toward better listening and better production
of music.  They approach the subject as a potential means of acquiring and
maintaining power over their subjects.

>Why
>must art have a purpose in order to be valuable? Defined *valuable* in
>any case. 

Because ANYTHING with value must be associated with a purpose.  Value is a
value FOR some purpose, BY some valuer.  Would you mind explaining how something
can be valuable without advancing a purpose?

>Is the Koh-i-nor diamond valuable? Does it have a purpose?

It has all kinds of purposes, it can be traded for things, it could be used 
to make jewelry, it could be used for industrial purposes, it could be studied 
for scientific purposes, it would make a dandy paperweight, and a thousand
other things.  I think people generally value oddities more than they ought
to, but that's another story.

--Brian
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Timpani in Church
Keywords: timpani, church
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:32:42 GMT
Organization: Digital Systems Co., Atlanta GA

How many of you out there participate in or direct church music
programs where the church OWNS a set of timpani, and how many
drums is in that set (2, 3, 4 or 5)?

How many are in churches which occasionally use timpani in special
services, but borrow or rent them OR have/hire a timpanist with
their own set?  (Again, how many usually used?)

Thanks in advance for all replies.


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie)
Subject: Prokofiev cello concertino
Originator: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:36:04 GMT

I'd like some information about the works for cello and orchestra by
Prokofiev. His sinfonia-concertante for cello & orch is reasonably well
known, but there are a couple of other works as well.
I believe the sinf-conc mentioned above (op 125) is a reworking of an
earlier cello concerto. How similar were the two pieces? Are they 
effectively the same?
Then there is a cd on the Virgin label (which I've never heard) of a
cello concertino, unfinished at the time of his death, but completed
by Rostropovich. What is this work like? Was there a major reconstuction
or was it almost complete? Has anyone heard it - any opinions on the
music? Vintage Prokofiev or not?
From: ajw@Think.COM (Andy Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:52:21 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: custard.think.com

In article <Bt958o.B6H@quake.sylmar.ca.us>, brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
|> Indeed, the KIND of music he strove to make "acceptable" does push out
|> other music, both in performances, and (more importantly) in the work
|> and education of new composers.  Imagine the reaction of the musical
|> world today if a young Mozart or Rachmaninoff started to write their
|> kind of music!  They wouldn't be considered serious composers, would they?
|> How can you explain that the music of the old masters is what most people
|> want to listen to, rather than the moderns?  Has there been a change?
|> What kind of people promoted this change?

A former teacher of mine,  William Bolcom, was interviewing Cage on the radio in Seattle
in the 1960's.  Bolcom expressed his dismay at the expectation that "serious" composers
write music based on mathematical systems, e.g. "total organization".  Cage told Bolcom 
that he should completely ignore the opinions of the academics and write the music that
he felt in his heart.

Subsequently,  Bolcom began to include elements of American vernacular styles (ragtime,
jazz, popular songs of the 30's and 40's, rock, etc) in his music,  along with elements
of older styles (classical, renaissance polyphony) and the music of other cultures (ketjak).
Bolcom credits Cage for helping him get out of the straitjacket of academic serialism.

Also, as far as not being accepted as a serious composer if you don't conform,  look at
the honors bestowed on Bolcom.
From: jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach undervalued? (was: Beethoven - overvalued?)
Date: 30 Aug 92 22:19:17 GMT
	<1992Aug28.081107.21503@cs.ruu.nl>
	<1992Aug28.213333.7213@Princeton.EDU>
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <1992Aug28.213333.7213@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>Especially when you know that someone once sorted out that about
>>xx% of Mozart's work could be directly related back to work of Bach.
>>(in that he used Bach's structures, parts of melodies, or whatever)
>Now, could you name some specific piece?  This sounds like a piece of
>crank musicology that Bach-worshipers are especially good at.
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^

  That statement is somewhat crank too, I think. Not that I'd think
  the statement commented too intelligent, however.

  As a more general question: how many composers are there, who can
  on better grounds than J.S Bach be held undervalued? For instance,
  how many of you know the music of C.P.E. Bach? When I heard the
  first time his Symphonies from his Hamburg period, I remember
  thinking: "If Mozart was a genius, so was this man, too." 
  I hope it is not only my lack of knowledge, when I say that there
  are surprisingly few wellknown composers contemporary to e.g. Mozart.

  As I see it, the lack of articles about J.S.Bach may as well be caused
  by his unquestioned status as by lack of interest or by his being 
  undervalued.
--
!
!	Jyrki Wahlstedt
!		Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
From: elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Music (and flamage) of the Junk Age, cont'd... ;-)
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:11:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Sep1.141132.15280
Distribution: rec.music.classical
Organization: Harvard Math Department

In article <1992Sep1.152544.327@Princeton.EDU>
jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU (James Pritchett) writes:

>I'm really getting tired of the lame "philosopher, not a composer" line.

If not lame, then at least ignorant of things like his early serial and
prepared-piano music, which (whatever its quality) was certainly "composed".
When I made a similar claim here about four years ago I tried to be careful
to limit it only to the stuff that's predominantly random (273",HPSCHD,etc.).

>I liked Kyle Gann's obituary a good deal--in particular the line "How many 
>gorgeous pieces does a guy have to write to be more than a philosopher?"

One.  Now all we need is a universally agreeable standard on what constitutes
gorgeous music...  Or, failing that, at least an example of such music that
might be recognized by those not already converted.

--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu)
  Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: will@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (William Sadler)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Enough about Cage, what about Partch?
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:33:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogre.will.714929620
Distribution: na
Organization: Indiana University

In <1992Aug27.025457.6831@slc.com> marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie) writes:

>Vance Maverick (maverick@mahogany.CS.Berkeley.EDU) writes:

>> Did Danlee Mitchell or any of the other Partchians ever do any new
>> music on Partch's instruments?

>While I was in San Diego I attended one Danlee/Partch concert which 
>included a piece by one of the ensemble - I can't be sure who wrote it. Its 
>style was somewhat reminiscent of Partch's.

>Unfortunately, none of that bunch ever seems to have taken up composing in 
>a big way, and at the time anyway, they were pretty possessive about the 
>instruments.


Good news on this front:  The instruments have been entrusted to
a group in New York that is now in the process of repairing them
and preparing for performances.  Look for new Partch recordings 
soon!

A good book on/by Partch is _Bitter Music_ edited by Tom McGreary
and published by U of Illinois Press last year.  It is basically
a compilation of several writings by Partch, the most notable being
the diary he kept while on the road as a hobo in the depression and
during his trip to England as the recipient of a Carnegie grant.

For those who find his music un-inspired take a listen to _American
Highball_ or _Barstow_ or _When Petals Fell in Petaluma_.  I tend
to find that these works are more accessible than _Delusion of the
Fury_ (which usually gets played in music history classes for some
reason)  Also, if you can find it, Water! Water! is hilarious.

Will
--
***************************************************************************
*   _______________\|/_      Will Sadler     will@cica.indiana.edu        * 
*   Laser 44888    /|\                       sadler@iubacs.bitnet         *     
***************************************************************************
Xref: sparky rec.music.classical:11780 rec.music.folk:5837
From: sfriedman@pbs.org (FRED)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: musical coincidences [SUMMARY]
Date: 24 Aug 92 16:47:25 EDT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA



I missed the MUSICAL COINCIDENCES SUMMARY -- could the person
who posted it e-mail it to sfriedman@pbs.org?  Many thanks.

-- 
<<<<<sfriedman@pbs.org     ...{uupsi,vrdhxq,csed-1,ida.org}!pbs!sfriedman!>>>>>
<<<<<<<<   I'm Fred.  Don't blame my employer; it's not responsible.   >>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Avoid contact with eyes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: TW@UMAB.BITNET (Tom Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: unusual REQUEST
Date: 4 Sep 92 13:55:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: UMAB.92248.085541TW
Organization: University of Maryland at Baltimore

Turn up the volume, sit back in your seat, and try
the opening of the Vaughn-Williams 4th symphony. :-)
The old Boult performance on LP is great, I don't
know if it's available on CD or not.

- Tom
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Newsgroups: rec.music.classical