From: Eugene McElroy <emcelroy@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Ireland: Loyalist Speak
Followup-To: alt.activism.d
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu
Organization: ?
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:08:14 GMT

                          ULSTER'S TWIN FORCES
                               **********
               From the Andersonstown News (West Belfast)
                             August 22, 1992
                               **********
U.S. reporter Jim Dee has been talking to members of the Loyalist paramilitary
groups UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force) and the UFF (Ulster Freedom Fighters).
The interviews were conducted separately at different locations on the Shankill
Road and took place before the recent banning of the UDA (Ulster Defense
Association). They provide an extraordinary insight into the mentality and the
tactics of the overhauled loyalist killer gangs whose actions have reached a
level of barbarism and ferocity unseen since the 1970's.
                               **********
                         Ulster Volunteer Force

Q: How big is the UVF?

A: The organization does not divulge numbers, weaponry or anything like that.
Let's just say we have enough to meet the need. The organization doesn't need
to advertise its needs. In the current situation you might get an influx, but
not as much as, say, the time of the Hunger Strike. We could increase our
numbers two to three times, no problem. But we're also trying to maintain a
higher level of operations. We have enough sophisticated weaponry to meet the
need, obviously. The supergrass {informer} trials exposed a lot of
shortcomings. Now we're organized along similar lines to the Provos {IRA}, with
a cell structure. But again, the organization does not divulge numbers.

Q: How does the UVF differ from the Ulster Defense Association (UDA)?

A: They're not that different. At one stage, the UDA flirted with the idea of an
independent Ulster, the UVF never went down that road. The UVF is very
committed to the union, the British link. Not to say than some individuals
within the UVF would favour an independent Ulster, but the organization does
not. Still, hypothetically, I could see it in the near future. We're still very
much in favour of the link--we're British. But if Britain withdraws, then the
UVF would have to look toward independence.

Q: Recently, an ex-UVF member told me that people in the loyalist community
are "pissed off" at the UDA/UFF over recent killings, and that they're viewed
as "mad dogs without a leash." Would you agree with that statement?

A: No, I don't view it that way. There's been a younger element that has come
to the fore in the UFF. Most of the targets seem legitimate, with the odd
exception. Under the old leadership there was not much activity, in a military
sense, they seemed more interested in self-preservation. The present
leadership seems more committed to taking the fight to the enemy and not just
sitting back. But we have quite close relations with them. At times, you'll get
the odd, occasional flare-up, differences. But you get that in the British
Army.

Q: The UVF claimed responsibility for the killing of Terry McConnville in
Portadown. It was reported that "security sources" backed the family's claims
that he had no connection with any paramilitary group. Are loyalist
paramilitaries increasing random sectarian attacks?

A: The UVF does not operate a policy of sectarian killings. See out there on
the Shankill Road? Right now, literally hundreds of catholics are working on
building sites. If the UVF was intent on killing catholics, we could do it easily.
If we were a sectarian organization, we could do so on a daily basis. If we were
sectarian, why go into the heart of a republican area to carry out a sectarian
killing? Why put our members ar risk, going through the security forces?

Q: There have been many allegations that the UVF operated with the collusion
of the security forces.

A: Absolutely not. Again an individual could, but i have no doubt that
republicans have contacts within the security forces as well. I would not
dispute the fact that the security forces would be sympathetic to loyalist
paramilitaries. But, in the make-up of the security forces, I would say loyalist
involvement is minimal. Whenever there is a killing in republican areas, Sinn
Finn cries about the security forces not doing their job. But the same people
who cry, attack a bar a couple of yards down the road here, where two men
were killed, and get away! That couldn't happen in republican areas. Teebane
is proof that we're not sectarian--we did not retaliate. {Teebane refers a village
in Co. Tyrone where in 1991 the IRA blew up a van containing 8 Protestant
workers who were rebuilding a British Army post. The IRA considers workers
and companies engaged in work for the British Army or Police as legitimate
targets. In February 1992, five people were killed at a betting shop on the
nationalist lower Ormeau Road, Belfast. The Loyalist death squad responsible
for this claimed it was in retailiation for Teebane. eugene}. There was a move
within the organizations to retaliate. But when the right targets present
themselves, we will retaliate. Our intelligence is good, very much so. There is
no sectarian policy in the UVF, and that is from the highest level.

Q: What is your view of the Brooke talks? How do you the prospect of
republican participation?

A: We hoped that the talks would be fruitful. That's why we called a ceasefire,
for six weeks, to help facilitate the talks. But the IRA only intensified their
campaign. The UVF has no contact with republicans. Until such time as the IRA
call a ceasefire for a reasonable period of time, the UVF will not engage in any
negotiations with republicans, not while they carry on their campaign of
violence. Now, the SDLP does not condone violence, although at the end of the
day their objective may be the same, we wouldn't deny that, but they'll work
within the law. But what {Sinn Fein leader Gerry} Adams portrays to the public
is quite different from what he says to his own people. I don't recognize any
difference between Sinn Fein and the IRA. There is no difference. THat being
said, I also think all loyalist politicians have failed the protestant people . They
have been more interested in themselves, and in their own powerbase. Things
like the cost of living and unemployment are completely forgotten about; the
DUP {Democratic Unionist Party, headed by Ian Paisley}, UUP (Ulster Unionist
Party) or Alliance, by and large, they're all the same. As for Dublin, they
have nothing to offer us. The number of protestants in the SOuth has
dwindled, until the percentage is so minimal. There's no question of anti-
protestantism down south. So we're supportive of talks, but I don't expect
much will come out of them.

Q: How do you view a resolution to the conflict? Would you accept powersharing
with nationalists?

Q: You must bear in mind that the answer lies with the Provos; the answer to
ending all violence lies with the Provos. If the IRA called a ceasefire, the UVF
would reciprocate. Contrary to the 'tit-for tat' view, the UVF does not go out
and retaliate: if a target presents itself, the UVF hits. The UVF has political
documents put out by very progressive unionists. There was one document
produced before, the UDA's 'Common Sense', a very progressive document.
Common Sense was pretty much a carbon copy of that document. It proposed a
devolved government, proportional representation etc. As for powersharing,
catholics still feel discriminated against. Of course there is discrimination in
employment, but it applies to both communities. If I were running Shorts {a
automotive engine plant in East Belfast with a nearly 95 percent Protestant
workforce. eugene} I wouldn't hire catholics--no one could assure me that
they're not in the IRA. I would know that a protestant is not coming to destroy
my business. For years we had it rammed down our throats "you must vote
Unionist to maintain the border!" The border split society for one class, for the
benefit of one class. This may sound conceited, but I think the people of
Northern IReland are the finest people anywhere; they're hard-working and
innovative, as Shorts, at the forefront, has proved. The willingness to work is
there, if we had jobs everyone could not fail to prosper. But I have no doubt
that the IRA have driven investors away.
                               **********

                         Ulster Freedom Fighters

Q; How big is the UFF?

A: Johnny- BIg. Our membership has grown four times in the past year,
province wide. We're 400 to 500 strong in west Belfast alone. Last year our
command structure was wiped out, but that allowed us to reorganize. Most of
those who were scooped were skimming {using organizational funds for personal
purposes} and tipping off {informing} the security forces. We got rid of the
dead wood. Restructuring brought in a younger element--no more grandads,
sitting behind a desk. Our recruitment is way up. In Belfast, we're organized
into six brigades, similar to the Provos, with an Inner Circle meeting one a
week.

Q: The UFF was involved in an attack on two women in North Belfast which has
been labelled purely sectarian. What is the strategy behind random attacks?

A: Sammy- Those women were not attacked. A known member of the North
Belfast IRA was the intended target. If we wanted to kill those two women,
they'd have been killed. They'd be dead now.
   Johnny--Our intelligence is one hundred percent accurate! One hundred and
one percent! We get our information from the security forces! I could show you
computer printouts in the other room, security force printouts with precise
intelligence.
   Sammy--"Innocent" catholics are always crying that they're innocent, but
they're not. If they want to be sectarian, we can be blunty sectarian. We'll
fight fire with fire. This is war. We are engaged in military war with the
Provos.

Q: Nationalists point to cases such as the Brian Nelson affair as an illustration
of why they oppose the security forces. {The Nelson affair highlighted the
close relations existing between the security forces and the loyalists.} How
close is your relationship with the RUC and the Army?

A: Sammy--Nelson was just an intelligence officer; as in 'overall' intelligence.
That's all he was involved in. Listen, republicans have their contacts within the
security forces too. They have their people passing on information. I'm not
going into details about out relationship with the security forces. But it is
there, and it is a good working relationship. I'm not going to give details, but
let's say we get information on a weekly rather than a daily basis. The
information is not on specific republican movements, day to day movements.
We'll be working on a target for months before we nail the target. I'm not going
into anymore details on that.

Q: Many people feel that direct negotiations with the republican movement are
fundamental to any lasting solution. How do you view that prospect?

A: Sammy--How do you talk to scum? Politicians can negotiate. But the Provos
started this, what should we negotiate? The Brooke talks are absolute
nonsense. This year the UFF is at full strength. Our numbers have swelled,
and our ammunition has swelled.

Q: Ammunition from South Africa?

A: Sammy--Yes. But the South African connection is only marginal. It's the one
you know about, so it's the one we admit. But its much more than that. We
have other supporters. We've got our supporters in America too. But the point
is we're not just reacting to what they (the IRA) do, we do our own thing.
We're trying to show how the Provos' actions impact on the catholic community.
The IRA are more communists than anything else. On our side, if you say
anything about us, fair enough. But in Andersonstown, people are scared to
speak. They're afraid of the Provos. That's communism. The Provos say an
attack on the police is an attack on the 'state'. But an attack on the security
forces is an attack on the protestant community. They should have no part in
the talks, and they never will have a part.

Q: In a United Ireland, republicans envision a new secular state. Are there
changes that could occur in the 26 Counties {Southern Ireland} that would make
re-unification more acceptable?

A: Sammy--I've been down South. My view of the 26 counties is: keep your
nose out of our fucking business. They're peasants down there. Their economy
is nothing. They're just trying to get a foot in the British economy. They want
the shipyard. {A reference to Harlan and Wolff's, a ship yard which is the
major employer in Belfast. It is the shipyard where the Titanic was built, and
has tremendous symbolic meaning for the Loyalist population, which makes up
90-95 percent of the H and W workforce. eugene}. There's nothing for me in a
united Ireland at all--I'm British. If republicans want an "all Ireland" then they
should move down South. The only way you'll see peace here is if you put
barriers up around each community. The British can't see any way out of it. I
can't see it ending in my lifetime.
                               **********

      In Peacenet's "reg.ireland" conference, there are other postings that are
of relevance to this posting. Number 81 contains the UDA document 'Common
Sense' refered to here. Number 111 contains a Sinn Fein statement on Loyalism.
Number 186 is entitled 'Loyalist Human Rights Concerns'.  Number 191
highlights the Nelson affair refered to here in the UFF interview.
      For further information on Ireland in Peacenet, please consult
'reg.ireland'. Ireland articles are also cross posted into other Peacenet
conferences such as gen.socialism, gen.racism, alt.activism,
misc.activism.progressive, labor.newsline, apc.labor, justice.usa, gen.women
and others. If you have any other suggestions for cross posting, please let me
know. If you want articles posted directly to you let me know via 'emcelroy'.
eugene.

Newsgroups: misc.activism.progressive