HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgm@ais.org (jim miller)
Subject: Re: Essay Time for Felix  (Was: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights)
Organization: Ann Arbor Information Society -- Toledo Annex
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 08:52:02 GMT


ckincy@cs.umr.edu (Charles Kincy) writes:

>Now, if wizards and gods want to keep their mud popular, they will
>live by a certain set of ethics and try to fair.  But nothing says
>they have to do it that way.  It's their mud, they can do whatever
>they want.  LIVE WITH IT.  Nothing about a god/wizard's totalitarian
>rule of a mud *resembles* South Africa, and you know it!  

You're treading well-beaten ground.  People have a right to be
treated decently, whether it's in their own home, the shopping
mall, the neighbor's house, or even, gasp, the program of a
would-be autocrat running on a computer port.  Trivializing
muds to D&D games has been shown to be hazardous to your health.
You haven't been around the block yet, son.

People who invite the public into a domain under their control
have much more than their continued popularity to think about.
That accountability thing, though, doesn't sit well with a
lot of people, that's evident.


-- 
"On a makeshift outboard canoe, Debbie sailed to New York, where she was soon
adopted by a nice upper-middle class Protestant family, who introduced her to
record producer Fred Zarr-- and the rest was history." -lafolle@ucscb.ucsc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen)
Subject: Giant Robot Combat
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:33:36 GMT

Well, BattleTechMUSH is out there, but I lost the address.  It has/will have a 
full mecha combat system as well as personal combat.
     Dave Van Domelen, kinda lost interest when his CO was overthrown in a coup
he was not asked about (considering he was the only Lieutenant left out it was 
a bit of a snub...)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jgm@ais.org (jim miller)
Subject: Re: Proposal
Organization: Ann Arbor Information Society -- Toledo Annex
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:30:49 GMT


russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad) writes:

>In <C19yAp.33q@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:
>
>>Me (and Ken, and Bruce, and Joel, of course -- we do everything together)
>>will be organizing the 1st International Symposium on Random Gang Group
>>Delusions sometime in late March, and *included* in that will be a day
>>devoted to the superiority issue.  Where did that sense come from?
>
>Honest opinion?
>
>Most of the people you glibly generalize based on a gag back in the pre-auzzie-
>spew days (I remember them so fondly) have noted that their peers, for the
>sake of this discussion, tend to be fairly responsible adults with jobs,
>degrees, et al, perhaps as a result of having gotten no younger in the
>years since TinyMUDs started (most of said people have been doing this a
>while, you know).
>
>While this doesn't translated to superiority, surely, it's still interesting
>to note, I guess.
>
>Speaking of which, Jim, how's college treating you? Let you back in?


Russ, you have a great knack for saying something and denying you
said it at the same time.

This is great, classic Random material.  At last it is revealed:  the
Random Gang derives their superiority to the other people who read and
post to Usenet, Furries, Pernies, etc. etc.....because they are
*responsible* and they are *adults* and they have *degrees* and
*jobs*.  And they have noted this of themselves.

This is real pathetic, too.  Russ, the conceit in your sentiment is
enormous.  Not only does it say that better educated, successful
people's views are intrinsically worth more than the rest of the
dregs of humanity, but also implies the belief that other people
who don't play your mud are, on the whole, less responsible, less
successful, less mattering.  Like we always knew they were, right?

Go away, far away.

-- 
"Consider a lion, sneaking up to rip an innocent gazelle into shreds.  Is
this morally wrong, should the gazelle get a fighting chance, should we
step in and declare that gazelles have rights too?  Of course not."
                      - Felix, on why mud users don't have rights
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jad@beta.lanl.gov (John De Vries)
Subject: Rights, Responsibilities, and the Universe
Organization: Lost Almost Feed'n'Seed
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:32:10 GMT


Mayhaps it is time for folx to go do some basic reading, like Locke's
"The Social Contract" (am I attributing this correctly?)

In any case, if the argument "this is implicitly so!" vs. "no it isn't"
is not by itself soluble, why not approach things from a different slant.
Although I realize that this would take FAR more effort than most
admins or players would actually wish to expend, it might be of value
to simply make things explicit.

In fact, I really wasn't arguing for nor against certain "rude"
behavior by a player that got that person knocked off a mud, I was
more interested in pointing out that presuming that ANYTHING is
"implicitly so" works about as well as trying to read your significant
other's mind.  If we all truly had a commonality of experience and
value system, we wouldn't have problems -- since we don't, then
perhaps making things explicit, in fact, making a _contract_ of some
ilk is what is necessary.

Rather than saying "the admin owns the ball, they can always just take
it away" or "the mud ain't nothing without the players" there'd be a
statement just what the admin is willing to do and what expectations
one might place on them; likewise, what the player is expected to do
and what penalties (or indeed rewards) would occur depending on what
behaviors the player exhibits.  Perhaps paramount to the process would
be a sentence or two that would handle "new situations" -- that is,
things that the players and the admin hadn't thought of before.

This way, the admin/gods/wizzes/whatever could say, up front, that
they intend to act in a completely arbitrary manner.  It'd be a matter
of explicit record.  Likewise, a player would know that certain
behaviors are considered rude (including acting so as to generate a
huge number of messages to the admin) or nice and would be "stuck"
with the results they'd agreed on before.


j. devries   jad@lanl.gov
hoping that this particular bit of ground hasn't been already stomped into dust.
From: wetmore@titan.ucs.umass.edu (Patrick J. Wetmore)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Rights Proponent Enjoys Unrebutted Last Word after R.g.m.t Bully Hastily Vows: "Final Article"
Date: 25 Jan 1993 02:46:57 -0500
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
NNTP-Posting-Host: titan.ucs.umass.edu

In article <C1Dv6J.67u@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:
>>You tedious, twitching jackal,

I am amused by this statement.

>People have rights, of the morally enforced type, all the time.
>Even while they are using muds.  

Says who?  What a load of crap.  Might makes right.  In a MUD community,
might belongs ultimately to the administrator of the MUD.  Therefore,
all rights are decided by the administrator.  Therefore, all rights of
a pathetic little *user* are dictated by the administrator. Unless you've
got some way of enforcing an arbitrary morality upon the administrator
(and you don't, so just shut up) any person has no right at all of any
kind, especially when using a mud.

>No one is going to get dragged
>out of their home and beaten as a result of using a mud, but
>it is plain that there are common, valued things that are often
>ignored or denied while using a mud.  

This is not plain.  In fact, I have no idea what you're talking about.
What is a common valued thing?  It is highly likely that I do not value it,
whatever it is.

>These things are not
>to be waved away because the mud user is not parting with some
>green paper in the process.  Rights do not have to be bought.
>Ridicule doesn't make them go away.

Rights *must* be bought.  Money is equivalent to might in a capitalist
society.  Might makes right, therefore in a capitalist society
(such as the one you are in. BTW, communism licks my left testicle) money
buys rights.  Buy a computer, run a mud, you've got rights.  Until then,
lick my left teste.

This, of course, is all in reference.  In "real life" bullets make even
more right than money, unless you're stupid.

>
>-- 
>"Don't be silly. Jim Miller is a master of misquoting people. He's gotten
>better in that he no longer changes the actual words so they will fit
>his interpetation of truth, now he relies on editing and misinformation.
>Sadly originality is one of many things that still escapes him."  -Edwin

pat "joey buttafuoco" wetmore.

Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 20:16:45 GMT

There is a fallacy that probably lacks a Latin name, but is a fallacy
nonetheless: the fallacy that a comparison of an argument for X to an
argument for Y is a comparison of X to Y.  At least one response went on in
great length about how it is silly to compare X to Y.  So?

Oh yeah, and if one asserts "I believe Z" one must out of consistency assert Z,
and if one asserts Z one must assert that one believes Z.  Prefixing a
statement with "I believe" gives exactly no information.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Essay Time for Felix  (Was: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:18:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.160553.11521@umr.edu> ckincy@cs.umr.edu (Charles Kincy) writes:
>>Using your reasoning, I would suggest that said mud-owner exercise
>>his freedom to ignore the bleeding hearts and not read news.
>Why not, don't we all have the "right" to express our opinion here?

But he was only making a _suggestion_.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jgm@ais.org (jim miller)
Subject: Re: Final Reponse to Jim Spew? (Was: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights)
Organization: Ann Arbor Information Society -- Toledo Annex
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:17:22 GMT


russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad) writes:

>IF, and I say it again, IF your REAL point all along has been to draft a
>suggestion that "say, if you're WORRIED about how you're going to get 500
>zanies to play your mud regularly, try offering them THESE promises as
>bribes", hey, go for it.  Feel free to not imply that those people who
>choose not to depend on said promises are innately bad.


And if you're not worried about getting people to play your mud, you
don't have to respect them or grant that they have rights as people
or any of that peon ass-kissing stuff.
Yeah, we *know*, Russ.  SpaceMadness is off in its own, special
little universe, we'll grant you that, ok?

-- 
"On a makeshift outboard canoe, Debbie sailed to New York, where she was soon
adopted by a nice upper-middle class Protestant family, who introduced her to
record producer Fred Zarr-- and the rest was history." -lafolle@ucscb.ucsc.edu
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.tiny:1483 rec.games.mud.admin:1192 rec.games.mud.misc:2038
From: jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: Re: [rights]: A SOLUTION
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:31:57 GMT
Followup-To: misc.test
Organization: Virginia Center for Lemur Fandom, Blacksburg, Virginia, USA (subscribe to alt.fan.lemurs TODAY)

In article <1993Jan21.104357.28741@odin.diku.dk> bombman@diku.dk (Hans-Henrik St{rfeldt) writes:
>jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>
>>Yep, Ken, and that something is you.  Why not shut up?  No one is
>>impressed with your little quips or with your fawning attempts to
>>ingratiate yourself with people by using their wisdom in your .sig.  Too
>>bad you have to rely on other people for witty commentary rather than
>>supplying your own.
>
>This whole flamewar is due to the problem in 
>knowing when ethics and when rights are involved. 
>So far only a few have known the difference!
>It's clear to me that you will never understand this :)

Nope, I understand it.  MUD gods should have some system of ethics since
MUD players have no rights.  I understand that fine.  I also understand
that Ken Arromdee has to have his mouth hosed down six times daily with
industrial cleaning agents to clear out the stink from all the idiocy he
spews.  
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.tiny:1485 rec.games.mud.misc:2040
From: eh1s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Edwin Huang)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: Re: Can a WIZ threaten you in RL????
Date: 21 Jan 93 23:38:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.gfLw2SG00VBLA1MGol
Organization: Sponsored account, Center For Machine Translation, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.mud.tiny: 20-Jan-93 Re: Can a WIZ
threaten you .. by Jennifer S Broekman@cuni 
> In article <ramage.727477286@tesla> 
> ramage@ece.scarolina.edu (Dan Ramage) writes:
> >Persistent is the key word.  The letter seems to have only been sent
> >once to each party, that is not persistent.
>  
> Persistence can be in space, as well as time. Sending the note to multiple
> parties is as much persistence as sending the note multiple times to a 
> party who ignores them.

*sigh* Why did I resubscribe?

What you are saying in a nutshell is this. 

Eric decides to buy 3 joints.
Eric gets busted by the cops.

The judge says, "Well the first offence is usually 3 months. But you
bought three joints. And each joint is to count as entirely new offense.
Thus because you have shown persistant drug buying, and thus entirely
unrepetantant. You shall go to jail for 15 years.

You are wrong.

The act as described was not harassment because it was not persistant,
but the scope of the letters was enough for action to be taken. It was
rude, but of a scope of sending mail to every user of a system. Perhaps
to take the anology to something that does make sense:

Eric has been caught buying 15 tons of pot. While pot is a recreational
drug. The authorities he could not be up to any good with the sheer
amount of volume that he purchased and thus is sent up the river for a
mighty long time. 

>  
> -Doriana
-dirque
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.tiny:1528 rec.games.mud.misc:2062
From: downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: (EVIL!)ness
Date: 25 Jan 93 11:50:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: leela.1k0k6tINNe3t
Distribution: world
Organization: spherical domain of death and darkness
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu


visit (EVIL!)Mud, home of the corpse of Paws, Xibo the (EVIL!) Emperor of
the Dark Throne, Vasudeva and his automagical crowd control thingies, and
TeenyMUD.

the place to come at night when the demons are out and things are at the
most angstful.

just beware the nightrider, for we all know he's on the loose again.

fido.econ.arizona.edu [128.196.196.1] 4201

-- 
\-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
 \           - jason downs -           /\   - downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU -  /
 / zeppelin/amiga release 2/insane guy \/ led/vasudeva/lord of fear of death \
/-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jgm@ais.org (jim miller)
Subject: Re: Essay Time for Felix  (Was: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights)
Organization: Ann Arbor Information Society -- Toledo Annex
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:59:33 GMT


mwilson@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Zaphod Beeblebrox) writes:

>In article <C1A2py.4ou@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:
>>
>>1.  Explain the substantive difference between the elusive "it"
>>    the blacks in South Africa don't have, and the lofty, muddle-
>>    headed "rights" that Ken and I go on about but in which there's
>>    no point because it's just a silly abstraction unless there's
>>    someone with a sharp stick present to dole them out.  In
>>
>
>Substantive Difference:  You get annoyed by your lack of rights on a MU*,
>you turn the power off and go to Burger King.  Where's the power switch
>for Aparthied?

Apartheid.  This kind of argument gets you nowhere.  If you get
annoyed by sexual harassment at work, you turn in your resignation
and go work somewhere else, because you can, right?  Or maybe
pursue another field of interest.  That country club that won't
let you join because you're black, you just drop golf and get a
different hobby, right?
I was asking Felix a specific question -- what is the significant
difference between that kind of moral reasoning Felix uses to arrive
at the conclusion apartheid is a bad thing, and the kind other
people use to arrive at the despised conclusion that, say, spying
on someone on a mud is a bad thing.  He refuses to admit that he
uses exactly the same sort of moralistic reasoning I and everyone
else does, because it would mean recanting a lot of earlier
posturing.


>It's amazing the conversations that go on here.  I wish several of you would
>go put a paper clip in the electrical socket.  If you live through, maybe
>you'll be able to tell the difference between Real Life (Burger Kings) and
>Virtual Reality (I'm sure somebody's MU* has a Burger King, but I doubt
>you'll actually taste it.)


I wish you would stop taking quick and easy jabs at a discussion
because dumb ridicule like the above can be written with little
thought.

-- 
"On a makeshift outboard canoe, Debbie sailed to New York, where she was soon
adopted by a nice upper-middle class Protestant family, who introduced her to
record producer Fred Zarr-- and the rest was history." -lafolle@ucscb.ucsc.edu
From: hawkeye@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Ken Keys - TF Dude)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Help needed using TinyFugue with LPMUDs
Date: 24 Jan 93 15:28:57 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: glia.biostr.washington.edu

In <1993Jan23.224850.25890@netcom.com> noir@netcom.com (Noel Ang) writes:

>Could someone tell me what flags et al in tf that I should set up to make it
>work properly with LPMUDs?  I'm getting a lot of 8-bit characters, but their
>consistency suggests screen formatting commands that tf is ignoring, rather
>than line noise.  Also, I'm getting prompts *after* I hit the ENTER key
>(i.e. the 'password:' prompt appearing after I enter my password and
>pressing the ENTER key).

TF will try to handle lp prompts correctly if you turn "/lp on".  I'm
afraid this may not work perfectly; I don't play LP muds, so I never
tried very hard to get this right.

TF assumes complete control of the screen, so it can't be used properly
(especially in /visual mode) with a sever that sends escape sequences.  
(BTW, All the servers I've seen that try to control the screen never
bother to ask what kind of terminal you're on, they just assume vt100.)

In TF version 2.1, you can do automatic login on LP muds, by adding
something like this to your config files:  

  /def -h"LOGIN <worldname> *" -p2 = %2%;%3

See "/help hooks" for an explanation.

-- 
--
Ken Keys, aka Hawkeye
Master of the Fugue
kkeys@ucsd.edu or hawkeye@ucsd.edu
-- 
--
Ken Keys, aka Hawkeye
Master of the Fugue
kkeys@ucsd.edu or hawkeye@ucsd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 22:27:58 -0500 
From: Robert Everett Brunskill <rb6t+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: THE ORIGIN OF ": )"

>From: mlm@fuzine.mt.cs.cmu.edu (Michael Mauldin)
>In article <1993Jan17.234120.2729@vax1.mankato.msus.edu>  writes:
>> In article <1993Jan18.020535.19223@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,  
>dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen) writes:
>> > Okay, CNN Headline News did a story on the Smiley last week, but I  
>forgot who 
>> > they accredited with inventing the damn thing.
> 
>It was Scott Fahlman of Carnegie Mellon University.
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>--Fuzzy

Cool!  

"Carnegie Mellon University, leading the world into tommorrow's technology!"

Rob Brunskill
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad)
Subject: Re: Proposal
Organization: Aggie? What precisely is an Aggie?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:45:25 GMT

In <C1GIJF.LyI@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:

>This is great, classic Random material.  At last it is revealed:  the
>Random Gang derives their superiority to the other people who read and
>post to Usenet, Furries, Pernies, etc. etc.....because they are
>*responsible* and they are *adults* and they have *degrees* and
>*jobs*.  And they have noted this of themselves.

>This is real pathetic, too.  Russ, the conceit in your sentiment is
>enormous.  Not only does it say that better educated, successful
>people's views are intrinsically worth more than the rest of the
>dregs of humanity, but also implies the belief that other people
>who don't play your mud are, on the whole, less responsible, less
>successful, less mattering.  Like we always knew they were, right?

You are SUCH an IDIOT.  Any trouble understanding that?  You asked why
a certain person might think a certain thing.  I speculated.  You took
it as flammable material.  Why?

Because the whole thing was another stinking setup so jim miller could
show the world what a damned saint he is by fudging what people say.  Has
anyone NOT caught this trick by now?

>Go away, far away.

No, I damned well don't think so.  But I am going to do one thing smart
that I've been too thick-headed to before now.  I'm going to acknowledge
your failure to be intelligent or even particularly honest in conversation
with the back of my killfile.

*plonk*

Seeya, jimmy boy.  It hasn't been the least bit fun.

-Random
no doubt, jim will now prove how the above words indicate that I rape children

-- 
---------------------===Comedy!  Sudden, violent comedy!===--------------------
Russ Smith -- russ@math.okstate.edu  |  "This is the Nineties, Bubba, and
  Don Random of the "Random Gang"    |   there is no such thing as Paranoia.
What a pinhead! Does he not fear us? |   It's all true." -- Hunter S Thompson
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jgm@ais.org (jim miller)
Subject: Re: The society analogy and rights (Was: Re: Essay Time for Felix)
Organization: Ann Arbor Information Society -- Toledo Annex
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:32:44 GMT


ghudson@athena.mit.edu (Greg Hudson) writes:

>Now, let's turn to "People have a right to be treated decently."  This
>is a whole new breed of cat.  Apparently, when Sherrian neglects to
>change the litter box for a week or so, my rights are being violated.
>I never thought of it that way before.  This "right" isn't just asking
>for a guarantee; it's asking for a highly improbable guarantee.  Not
>only can the government (or a mud aministrator, for that matter) not
>guarantee that you will be treated decently, but nobody can guarantee
>that they personally are treating you decently, because none of us are
>perfect.


For the n^zillionth time, a right is NOT a guarantee.  Expecting that
someone will respect my rights is expecting that they will *try*
to act in a decent manner and that they recognize my right.

Make this notation in your notebooks:  R ~= G

-- 
"Don't be silly. Jim Miller is a master of misquoting people. He's gotten
better in that he no longer changes the actual words so they will fit
his interpetation of truth, now he relies on editing and misinformation.
Sadly originality is one of many things that still escapes him."  -Edwin