From: karsten@nic.gac.edu (Karsten Hendrick)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Bruce Flame
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:51:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: gacvx2.1992Apr14.105113.877

In article <1992Apr13.230512.19311@uwm.edu>  writes:
 
> >> 	please explain this.  how about some hard documentation that one
> >> can confirm.  we are not talking about fandom type 'he was the greatest',
> >> or black belt magazine filler by someone who never saw or met him in
> >> action, but someone of a level of competence that is at least recognized
> >> by a 'reasonable' number of people in the martial arts comunity.  someone
> >> who actually sparred him in a contest/fight, or saw his training on a
> >> regular basis.
 
> >Try Dan Inosanto, or Paul Vunak.
 
I'm sorry, I should have explained the above choices.
Dan Inosanto is probably a good source for those interested
in Bruce Lee and his training, whereas Paul Vunak applies some
fighting principles Bruce Lee believed in for his self-defense
seminars.  As Dan Inosanto's (former?) student, he has tried to
expand the concepts of Jeek Kune Do which he learned from Dan, 
not Bruce.
   
> >Oh jeez, it's the attack of the killer dojo groupies again.
> >Excuse me, but 'wins' in a 'tournament'?  I guess that refers to point 
> >fighting tournaments.  I've been to some of those.  Basically it's two 
> >people shadowboxing each other, and one of them gets a point or half a 
> >point, at the discretion of the judges/referee.  Point fighting does 
> >not require fighting skill.  It requires 'point fighting' skill.  I'd
> >hate to relate what would happen to someone stupid enough to attack me
> >by throwing a reverse punch at my chest.  
 
> Hey now wait a minute.  While I agree that tournament wins is not a 
> way to judge someone, it is certainly by no means a way to discredit anyone
> either.  I'm Sure Jim Kelly, Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, and
> a host of other former point champs would like to hear how point is not
> a test of overall skill, and that there is no real contact.  They'd 
> probably laugh as hard as I'm sure alot of people that read that are too.

There's too much not allowed at point fighting tournaments to 
make it effective at determining overall fighting skill.  Grappling
and groundfighting happens very often in street fights.  I'll repeat:
I don't think a reverse punch to the chest is the answer when 
someone comes in and tackles you to the ground.

I have seen some people get nailed at a point fighting tournament,
and the referee usually gave a warning to the person
who scored the hit, telling them not to hit so hard.  I would 
have warned the person who got hit to duck/block/slip/evade 
next time, instead of bitching at the fighter who got in a 
legitimate hit.
 
> >> 	to the best of my knowledge, he never won any regional, national, or
> >> international title in anything (except the movies) and he was never made  
> >> a
> >> master by a teacher of any style he studied.... nor did he ever attain a 
> >> level deserving such title.
 
> >Neither have I, and I have sparred with judoka, aikidoka, karateka,
> >TKDers, Kung Fu stylists, Thais (Muay Thai), and boxers.  None of
> >them have 'titles,' as far as I know.  They are fighters, not 'title'rs.
> >We fight to fight, because we like to fight, and because we are good
> >at fighting, and we're not in it to get a damn title.
 
> My point exactly.  But you are way off the bat to critcize many of the
> people that do have titles.  Just becuase they chose to go for a title
> doesn't make them any less or more of a fighter.  It just means they
> have different needs and goals other than yourself.

True, but, again I say, I was just criticizing the view that only such
people with titles have credibility as fighters.
 
> >Who cares about 'international' titles?  Only people who need to bolster
> >some sadly lacking self esteem, or who take others on some ego trip with
> >them have need for 'titles'.
 
> Let me ask you, are you a psychology major?  Have you talked to Bill
> Wallace, Pete Cunnigham, Kathy Long or any titleholders for that matter?
> How could you possibly know what their goals are or what kind of an
> ego they have?  The only one who has actually shown an ego trip
> is Dennis Allexio.  Did you ever stop to think that maybe some people
> ENJOY competition?  Does that mean that every athlete in every sport
> in the olympics is on one massive ego trip?  Am I missing something
> or is it some kind of cake walk to get to where these people are?

Hey, they have a title because they earned it.  I was responding to the
assertion that credibility only be given to people who had titles.  If
I sparred Bill Wallace in a PKA kickboxing tournament, he'd probably
make me look like an idiot.  I have seen Kathy Long fight.  She's good.
My objection was to the assertion that the title makes someone good,
which is what Mr. Cohen was presupposing.  My assertion is that if one
is a good fighter, one may earn a title someday.
 
> And tell me, if you feel this way, why did you feel the need to boast
> about you and your friend and how you do "real" fighting?  What is
> the difference between that and these people by your definition?

That was given as an example of what some other people use to measure
and develop fighting skill.  I realize it's not for everyone, but it's
what I've used to get better, and it has worked for me.  If I appeared
to boast, I apologize, perhaps I could have worded it differently.   

> >Bruce Lee demonstrated his skill many times publicly.  There
> >are people who have seen his skill and were awed by it.
> >Why don't you read Robert Clouse's "The Making of Enter the
> >Dragon," for really absorbing analysis of the person known
> >as Bruce Lee.
 
> Definately agree on this point.
 
> While I know where you are coming from in this Bruce flame rebuttle,
> I also have to say that your generalizations on alot of the above
> are not fair either.

Perhaps, but they were in response to what I believed to be an overly
unfair post.

Karsten Hendrick
karsten@nic.gac.edu
karsten@lavatch.gac.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts