HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Date: 11 Apr 92 20:12:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: acs.1992Apr11.201209.29551
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Apr10.233642.8923@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.222249.12761@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang) writes:
>
><What is your answer to the following passage?
><
><	The "Republic of China" proclaimed on 1 January 1912 had never
><governed  Formosa.
>[rest deleted]
>
>The Japanese government was the *illegitimate* government of Taiwan throughout
>most of the ROC (and a couple of decades before).  The ROC, which inherited
>all of China's territory from the Qing dynasty, was the legitimate government
>of Taiwan.  Now the PRC is the legitimate government of Taiwan.
>

Scott, if I understand you properly, you are saying that the
treaty of Shimonoseki (sp?) was illegitimate?

Are you saying that the CCP was wrong in the thirties and
forties when they considered Taiwan as not being part of
China?

Are you saying that they same the light only after the KMT
thugs, having fled to Taiwan, convinced them that 
indeed Taiwan had always been part of China?

Do you also think that Tibet is rightfully a colony of China?

A final question, what is your criterion for legitimacy
of a government?  I get the strange feeling that your
criterion may not be that different from the  ones that the
most rabid KMT supporters would propose...

(Yes, it's fun to provoke, but aren't you shooting
at the wrong target?)

Luc B.
From: bbs@medsys.rn.com (Public BBS System)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: NON-POLITICAL Gin1 Young's novels
Date: 13 Apr 92 01:54:12 GMT
Reply-To: bbs@medsys.UUCP (Public BBS System)
Organization: Med-Systems, Kingsport, Tennessee

In article <1992Apr8.174355.23766@watserv1.waterloo.edu> ptyshih@watnow.waterloo.edu (Paul T.Y. Shih (Taku or Pear)) writes:
>
>	2. According to the story, people in that story didn't grow their
>	hair. So it can't be Ching.

I don't recall this. Would you please more information on this? Thanks.

Most of the people spoke out thought that the background of Xiao Au
Jiang Hu was Ming dynasty. I think that is a good guess. It is clear
that the background of Xiao Au Jiang Hu cannot be earlier than Yuan
dyansty because the term Yuan appeared in the book.

Chou1
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: peter@Eng.Sun.COM (Peter Liu)
Subject: Re: to proud citizens
Organization: Sun Micro System
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 18:44:59 GMT

A few proud ROC citizens still don't understand what I mean.
So let me make an example:

I guess a lot of people have watched the very famous movie
"The sound of music". 
Its Chinese translation is "Jen1, Shain4, Mei3. -- True, Good, Beautiful."

In the movie, 
when the music-loving captain's family and their family teacher
want to escape from NAZI (the captain refuse to fight for NAZI),
a boy who used to be a good friend of the captain's eldest 
daughter and become a NAZI boy later
betrays his friendship/love with the captain's family
and reports the captain's  escape to NAZI.
Why? Because the boy was fooled by NAZI.
He paid his foolish unconditioned loyalty to NAZI.

I think even a child can see that the boy's wrong.
But why can't these proud citizens understand what's wrong with their pride?  
Need a mirror?

A country is worth of loving only if 
the country is established on the basis of justice and love.
When a government consistently cheats its people, prevails unjust, 
and commits crimes by promoting the belief of nationalism (or blind loyalty),
the country/nation under its ruling becomes a machine, a tool
for that crime committing government.
The KMT government intentionally did evil things in the past,
and is still intentionally doing evil things now.
Since there is no sign showing that KMT want to stop blinding people in Taiwan,
I don't think there is a good chance for KMT to become less evil in the future.
To render loyalty to this kind of country is blind and meaningless.

There's nothing wrong to be proud of 
the culture we have, the people(race) we are.
But when talking about being proud of a country/nation/government/party, 
a second thought on what does these actually represent 
is necessary.

Need a mirror, proud citizens?
When a person from Mainland said
"I am proud of Chinese culture." or
"I am proud of being a Chinese (in ethical/non-political sense).",
there is no objection in my mind.
But when a person from Mainland said
"I am proud of People Republic of China."
"I am proud of the Chinese Communist Government/Party."
I feel the person is as guilty as Li-Peng.

So, proud citizens, see the difference?

-------------------------------------------------------------
A Mr. Shi(?spelling) put a lot of question mark like this:
(Just for ID purpose, I am too lazy to go back and dig the article out.)
???????? NAZI=KMT ????????????

I would like to say, that's where the blind point is.
To my observation, except invading other countries,
KMT did ALMOST every thing that NAZI did.
(cf. NAZI killed Jewish people. KMT has no Jewish people to 
kill. That's why I said "ALMOST.")


Peter
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Subject: Re: National Identity (Re: Joe)
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 10:53:11 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.010530.17719@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> hyx1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Harry Y Xu) writes:
>Yellow river is worshiped because it's the Birth place of Chinese (East Asian)
>Civilization.  (At the great bent of the Yellow River, to be exact.)  Its
>worship has nothing to do with its water quality or any conspiracy to justify
>pollution.  I think problem with pollution is about the delicate balance 
>between environment and development.
>
1. It is not scientific to say that Yellow river is the "Birth place of
   Chinese Civilization."  As many archeology works in China reveals,
   Each region in the Han habitats currently ruled by PRC had developed
   some level of civilization at the same time.  There was no single
   origin of the Han civilization.
2. NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard.  The KMT state simply does not treat
   Taiwan as HOME.
>
>People love the land only on the CONDITION that they believe the land loves
>them by supporting their good life.
>
1. If you settle on a land, you have to love the land for an equal
   return.
2. If you are not settling on a land, you should not interfere with
   the lovefair between the land and its residents.  (i.e. you make
   love with the land, not rape the land)

>Indeed.  It's not a national identity, but a ethnic/cultural identity.
>"national" is a somewhat political word.  Hua-ren however contains absolutely
>on political connotation.  Hua-ren (Chinese) can be citizens of any nation.
>
Well, that was an answerr to Joe Wang whose definition of nation is
different from yours.  Joe thinks that national identity has nothing
to do with politics.  Joe thinks that Hua-ren is not good for ethnic
or cultural identity in Harry's terms.  Hay, Joe, see, Harry says that
Hua-ren is an ethnic/cultural identity which is a national identity
in your term.  Thank you, Harry.
>
>What can I say!  I can't figure out what's Hua-yi.  (I no Chinese, btw.)
>
>harry/kb2lha

Yi4 = descendant

Tze-yau Huang

ps Engineering Stress is different from Physics Stress is different from
   Psychological Stress in definition.
   My nation is different form Harry's nation is different form Joe's
   nation in definition.
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Control?! (The Six-Year...)
Date: 14 Apr 92 09:39:32 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Apr13.015328.21159@leland.Stanford.EDU>, infiniti@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Chung-Yih Lee) writes:
> 
> especially when judged by political opinions. Moreover, anybody has their human
> rights. I know that citizens have rights to initiate their own arrest when they
> see a crime happen; but I have never heard of citizens' right to assault people
> with different opinions. And to label them "BAD." "BAD GUYS."

	** When DPP had rally at big cities in Taiwan, they assulted
	   passbyers and accused them as KMT spies.

	   Comparatively, I still think KMT(ROC) and her polices are
	   "better" guys, even from political point of view.

> 	An average cop is supposed to protect the citizens. Even if a citizen 
> does not support the government or recognize the country, if the cop regards 
> himself as one of the ROC police force(and getting paid for it) he has to 
> protect the citizen. And you want to say, "hey, the guy doesn't even recognize
> the ROC! Why should the government he hates protect him?"
> Heck, he doesn't recognize the ROC but the government is collecting his tax 
> money all right, I suppose.

	** I think we whould say cop is supposed to protect "good"
	   citizens and to beat and arrest "bad" citizens. A citizen
	   who does not recognize his/her own country is "of course"
	   a "bad" citizen. Don't you agree?

	   As far as the tax, you should know why should citizen pay
	   tax. Because they earned money from the country. Of course
	   they should pay tax regardless if they recongize the 
	   country or not.
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: HSNU needs you!
Date: 14 Apr 92 10:04:25 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Apr13.202045.22500@watserv1.waterloo.edu>, ptyshih@watnow.waterloo.edu (Paul T.Y. Shih (Taku or Pear)) writes:
> 
> 	Greeting for the big day! And thanks, HSNU (the senior high
> 	school of National Taiwan Normal University), for giving me
> 	the best high school life I could get in Taiwan.....
> 
> 	Paul T.Y. Shih (H472)


	** Hay, I think Jian Guo Zhon Hsieh is better than HSNU.
	   People from Jian Zhon should have a better high school
	   life. Shouldn't it?
From: bbs@medsys.rn.com (Public BBS System)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: NON-POLITICAL Gin1 Young's novels
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:59:24 GMT
Reply-To: bbs@medsys.UUCP (Public BBS System)
Organization: Med-Systems, Kingsport, Tennessee

In article <1992Apr3.105132.12706@leland.Stanford.EDU> infiniti@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Chung-Yih Lee) writes:
>In article <1992Mar31.155117.4204@umbc3.umbc.edu> wangs@sol.engr.umbc.edu (Shawe-Shiuan Wang) writes:
>
>>Which dynasty was 'Shiou4 Our4 Jiang1 Hoo2(lake)' in ?
>>Gin Young himself said this novel does not belong to any dynasty.
>>Well, I don't believe him. We can find some clues in the novel.
>
>	I haven't read the novel for quite a period of time and I don't quite
>remember details... however, as I remember, Jang1 San1 Fong1's
>Wu3 Dang1 Pai4, which was founded in the late Yuan Dynasty/early Ming Dynasty

Do Zhang San Feng and Wu Dang Pai appear in Xiao Au Jiang Hu? Perhaps you
are thinking about Yi3 Tian1 Tu2 Long2 Ji4?

Chou1
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: scc53091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (TAIWAN!!! 5/18/92 )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: >>>>The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, R.O.C.
Date: 9 Apr 92 00:15:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: ux1.1992Apr9.001548.6964
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Mr. Scott Horne,

What is your nationality??
What is the point you are trying to make in pointing out all the mistakes?
"Horne"...hmmm...doesn't sound very "Asian"...  :)

Steve Chen
From: bbs@medsys.rn.com (Public BBS System)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: An example (was: Re: ++++The Six-Year.....)
Date: 15 Apr 92 02:11:13 GMT
Reply-To: bbs@medsys.UUCP (Public BBS System)
Organization: Med-Systems, Kingsport, Tennessee

In article <1992Apr12.215537.21114@watserv1.waterloo.edu> ptyshih@watnow.waterloo.edu (Paul T.Y. Shih (Taku or Pear)) writes:
>
>	dept. The company spend around 12% net income as R&D budget every

Are you sure about the number 12%? It is extremely impressive. Not even
too many American companies can do that. If my memory serves me correctly,
the average R&D budget for the U.S. is about 6-8 %. Japan has a higher
figure. Some Japanese companies spend 20% on R&D but that is more like
exception.

Chou1
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: adamy@milton.u.washington.edu (Erh-Chun Yeh)
Subject: Re: to proud citizens
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:59:35 GMT

peter@Eng.Sun.COM (Peter Liu) writes:

>In article <1992Apr14.061927.24882@watserv1.waterloo.edu>, ptyshih@watnow.waterloo.edu (Paul T.Y. Shih (Taku or Pear)) writes:
>> In article <Apr.13.22.38.46.1992.15290@math.rutgers.edu> lko@math.rutgers.edu (lko) writes:
>>
>> >    Leaving aside questions on the correctness, how does the above
>> >show that most people in Taiwan proudly regard themselves as citizen
>> >of R.O.C.? Please elaborate. 
>>
>> 	Easy, people used ballots to show that they rather stay in 
>>                         ^^^^^^^
>> 	ROC in stead of being ROT's citizens.
>>

>I saw a few people are fooled by KMT's nationalism, which makes them so proud
>of being ROC's citizen. Let's look at NAZI German's history for a comparison.

>NAZI took its power by a perfectly legal election 
>which is much more clean and fair than Taiwan's last year's election.

>Only one year in power, NATI put 2.7 million unemployed people back to work.
>The unstable German society after WWI was brought back to order.
>German's national productivity increased in a surprising rate.
>A few years later, NAZI German won the most medals (33 golds) in Olymipic Game.
>Within 10 years, NAZI German had the strongest army in Europe.

>MOST German people were so proud of NAZI German then 
>and showed their support in ballots.
>Time proves them wrong.
>And German people (as well as other people) paid a extremely high price 
>to learn a lesson.

>My conclusion:
><1> People's pride in their own people and loyalty to their country 
>can be easily and cheaply  transformed (by politicians) into
>tools/weapons for politicians.

Agree, that is the weakness of a HUMAN BEING. But at least better than
those who come from some place and feel their hometown is the worst spot
in the world. Whether you will be cheated or fooled all up to you, your
intelligence will give you the answer if you are awake.

><2> As long as a country is NOT of the people, NOT by the people, 
>NOT for the people, it's meaningless to render loyalty.
>In addition,  it's extremely dangerous to render loyalty/obedience to 
>a dishonest government like the current KMT government in Taiwan,
>which tries every possible way to mislead its people.

How long did you live in Taiwan? Are you sure for what you are talking
about here? Which example gave you such a bad impression about the
government in Taiwan? *NOT* all contries which are of the people, by the people,for the people, are worth talking about rendering loyalty. Slogans are not big
issues here, if you want the beautiful slogans, some COMMUNISTS will give
you a whole bunch. Did the government in Taiwan ever treat you bad? ever
deprive your right for getting better? ever block you for your happiness?
......
Think about it. By the way, what does "DISHONEST" mean here? I probably
will think you are *DISHONEST* if you are telling the lie -):

However, I disagree with you at this point.

Adam E.C. Yeh

>Peter
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: cyeh@descartes.waterloo.edu (Woody)
Subject: Re: NON-POLITICAL Gin1 Young's novels
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:34:15 GMT

In article <1992Apr5.230351.4702@cs.brown.edu> wcn@cs.brown.edu (Wen-Chun Ni) writes:
>In article <1992Apr3.105132.12706@leland.Stanford.EDU> infiniti@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Chung-Yih Lee) writes:
>>In article <1992Mar31.155117.4204@umbc3.umbc.edu> wangs@sol.engr.umbc.edu (Shawe-Shiuan Wang) writes:
>>
>>>Which dynasty was 'Shiou4 Our4 Jiang1 Hoo2(lake)' in ?
>>
>>	I haven't read the novel for quite a period of time and I don't quite
>>remember details... however, as I remember, Jang1 San1 Fong1's
>>Wu3 Dang1 Pai4, which was founded in the late Yuan Dynasty/early Ming Dynasty
>>is present in the novel. That makes the setting between Ming and Ching. I don't
>>think anybody has a pigtail in the novel; that makes the only possible setting

	It is Ming. According to one of those Jing1 Xyue2 Yiang2 Jio4 Cong2
Shu1, the government position, which Lio2 Zheng4 Feng1 is getting, is exit in
Ming but not Ching. Sorry about forgetting what is the name of that position.
Would anyone remind me please?

ps: Lio2 Zheng4 Feng1 is a Master of Heng2 Shang1 Pai4. Good at playing
    bamboo flute.
From: thuang@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Legal Gov. <re: Scott>
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:28:03 GMT

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Keywords: 

In article <1992Apr9.042442.4494@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
>What the hell are you talking about?  The ROC was a legal (though corrupt,
>inept, and very ineffective) government of Taiwan and the rest of China
>for about forty years, in the first half of this century. 
>
Just curious, have the ROC state been the legal government of Taiwan for
about forty years in the first half of this century?

>Hands up, all who think that the PRC is following the so-called "Taiwan
>experience".  Anyone?  Come on, there must be at least one or two of you
>out there who harbour such a ridiculous notion.
>
>					--Scott
The duplication of "Taiwan experience" is neither desirable nor
feasible.

Tze-yau Huang
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Control?! (The Six-Year...)
Date: 12 Apr 92 08:39:28 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Apr12.042920.25539@leland.Stanford.EDU>, infiniti@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Chung-Yih Lee) writes:

> 	In addition, I don't quite think cops have a right to decide not to
> rescue somebody being assaulted. 

	** What should a cop do if he sees a "bad" guy is beaten
	   by a "good" guy? 
	   
	   This question assume the bad and good is obvious to
	   tell by an average cop.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: shihtsun@ec.ecn.purdue.edu (Shih-tsun Alex Chou)
Subject: Re: HSNU needs you!
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 03:48:27 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.212325.2951@vax.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu writes:
>	   Let me ask you: should someone from those bad schools also
>	   have reasons to be proud of?  Some of them might be a
>	   successful business man now. They would say: what's good
>	   for students from HSNU or Jian Zhon? They are only book
>	   worms.   

	Hey! Two of my college classmates from HSNU are now either 
famous stock broker or running successful electronics compony in
Taiwan. Please take away "HSNU" from your claim.

	BTW, why don't you leave your name in the header or the end of
your posting?

Alex Chou

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Subject: Re: What is article 100?  VERY POLITICAL
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 10:39:42 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.233616.11478@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> scc53091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (TAIWAN!!! 5/18/92 ) writes:
>Hello everyone,
>
>Can anyone tell me the content of Article 100 in the ROC Constitution?  (or is
>it in the constitution or some where else??)  I heard about it on the CTS news..
Article 100, nowadays in Taiwan, generally refer to the article 100 of
the criminal code.  It punishes people who are judged to have seditious
intensions and behaviors without using force and violence.  Judges and
prosecuters are free to draw the line; for example, joining communist
party was a seditious behavior but no longer is one while the law has
not been changed. 

>...don't really know what it is.  Is it something about political prisoners?
>
Most people convicted through this law have been political prisoners.

>| Steve C. Chen			             Email: scc53091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu |	

Tze-yau Huang

Xref: sparky soc.culture.taiwan:7225 soc.culture.china:12508
From: chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:45:27 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci

horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:

>That's all you got out of the story?!  So much for Taiwan's "education"
>system....

It takes a very simple-minded (read stupid :-) person to judge the entire
"education" system by a single person's interpretation of one story.

Besides, when did you read the story? What did you "get" out of the story? 
Horne? 

-Chunshi Chang
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 04:38:41 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <13955@star.cs.vu.nl> mvdvalk@cs.vu.nl (Valk v/d M) writes:
>bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens) writes:
>
>>(BTW, I think that there is a good case to be made
>>that the present prosperity of Taiwan occurred not
>>because of the KMT, but that at least initially, 
>>the KMT was an obstacle to development...
>
>Please explain!
 
It seems to me that one should make a distinction between
the early years, when after having fled China, the
KMT basically put themselves in the position left by
the Japanese, except with a much shorter term view,
and a much keener eye toward personal interest...

Thus they created a structure when mainlanders were
first class citizen while Taiwanese did not
belong to the club.   Thus civil service positions
(all important in the traditional social hierarchy)
all went to mainlanders, etc...

The one thing left to those who did not belong in
the system, of course, was trade and manufacturing
(all traditionally 'low class' activities...)

My guess is, with their pride hurt, Taiwanese took at
this with a revenge.

So, when the old thug eventually died, his son, who
seems to have been a more decent fellow, recognized
the emerging economic success as an opportunity
that could not be missed, and then, the official
attitude started to change.

>The Chinese have had many wars with the Tibetans in the past. The Chinese do
>not view the Tibetans as Buddhist freedom fighters as we do in the West, but as
>poor and ignorant former-enemies and residents of the PRC. IMHO, the Chinese
>are more or less right. Of course, the Tibetans should have the right to
>practice their religion. That, btw, is all the Dalai Lama wants as well. He has
>never proclaimed an independent Tibet, as far as I know.

The way Chinese view Tibetans is unimportant.  What matters
is the way Tibetans view themselves.

If they don't think they belong in China, they should have the right
*not* to be forcefully integrated.

(While we Westerners are slowly becoming aware that our
ethnocentrism of the past had genocidal dimensions,
Chinese ethnocentrism remains triomphalist...)

Luc B.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan