Path: think.com!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!infoserv!peewee
   From: peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer)
   Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
   Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 12:39:48 PDT
   References: <1bk51fINNbnm@early-bird.think.com>
   Distribution: world
   Organization: Banished CPU
   Lines: 55

   In article <1bk51fiNNbnm@early-bird.think.com>, Shai Guday (shaig@think.com) writes:

	   >Ron Arad has nothing to do with this, and waving this is little
	   >more than a red herring.

   This coming from a former IDF soldier?  Am I supposed to believe this?

Yes, you might as well believe it.  I notice that you conveniently
did not respond to the fact that two wrongs don't make a right either.
Ron Arad was engaged on a military mission, he was shot down, and may
even be dead.  I am fully acquainted with the story, as I am with
the allegations made by his family that the Israeli gov't did not
handle the negotiations to the best of their ability.

It is NOT DIRECTLY CONNECTED to the original subject though.

	   >In contrast to others here however, I am not an armchair warrior
	   >espousing policies for which other [sic] will have to bear the
	   >burden.  I have been there, and I know.

   Same here.  I have relatives in Rehovot, and I've visited them there.
   I'm no armchair warrior.  But by the same token, I'm not going to
   grease my zipper so some terrorist can sodomize me.  The best way
   to fight fire is with fire.

I see, your visits to Rehovot are comparable military experience.
Having seen the country, you are no longer an "armchair warrior".
I sure wish most Israelis could have the luxury of being veterans
through your experiences.

To use your analogy, the Israeli's zipper is so rusted that he can't even
take a leak comfortably.  You say it prevents him from being sodomized,
I say that it prevents him from living any semblance of a normal life.
Furthermore, as I and the others who actually serve in the IDF go through
this, somehow I think it gives a bit more validity to our stand.

	   >Of course, if you wish to continue cutting your nose to spite
	   >your face go ahead.  Oh, I forgot, you don't live there anyway.

   I don't see a "ac.il" after your e-mail address, either.  Maybe you've
   caught one too many javelins.

No, I merely got tired of paying the price for the items you and your ilk
deem to be so crucial.  Of course, I did wait until after the elections
as Israel has no absentee ballot for citizens abroad.  Another problem
that has yet remained unaddressed.

	   >Yeah, it's [Israel's legal system] a glow-worm compared to the
	   >west.  There is room for major improvement,

   Yeah, yeah...you leftists say the same thing about the U.S. legal system.
   There's always room for improvement.  Let's open the military up to homos,
   draft dodgers, and conscientious objectors.  Then when it comes time to
   earn those benefits, they can all wuss out together while the rest of
   us enlist to kick some ass.

For your information, there are homosexuals and bisexuals in the IDF
though nobody talks about it much.  I served with one in Lebanon who
was as good a soldier as any other in my unit.  If you are a homophobe,
thats your problem, but like most of your post, it still doesn't have
anything to do with the fact that there is much room for improvement and
much of it is needed.  Justice Barak has said as much himself, though of
course having had some schooling you would probably call him a "leftist
intellectual" and dismiss anything he says.

	   >I have no problem admitting that Israel has taken steps toward
	   >peace

   No, you only have a problem sticking up for Israel when her enemies are
   as hostile as ever.  This week's Jerusalem Post says that Assad has rejected
   even meeting with Rabin.  Assad says a summit now is "premature".  I guess
   he means it's premature to have peace with Israel.

No, I have a problem sticking up for Israel when she is in the wrong.
I am a patriot, but the true meaning of patriotism is not the support
of your country, wrong or right, do or die.  Too many people I know were
injured or killed while doing such.  True patriotism means supporting your
country when right, and not being afraid to crticize it when wrong.

No, his meaning is probably that a summit is premature until after the
elections in the US and the stand of the elected administration becomes
clear.  Of course I could be wrong as well.

   I fully expect your next posting to quote your hero, Noam Chomsky.
   Don't disappoint me.

Sorry but Noam Chomsky is no hero of mine.

In summary, I notice that you deleted all factual rebuttal from my original
post, refused to address the issues, and resorted to name calling while
obfuscating all the facts.

Sheesh, sometimes I wonder why I bother.....