HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jking@nmt.edu ('Admiral JC')
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Last time on this one
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:13:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: nmt.1993Jan12.031349.21351
Organization: New Mexico Tech

In article <H.ea.0kgtRS0BsQs@semprini.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca> cherborth@semprini.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca writes:
>
>Which is precisely why I'm looking into the other alternatives.  Why is
>it that EVERYONE assumes DOS when you say PC?  As Dave Bagget's pointed
>out, you can put any one of a HALF-DOZEN or more operating systems on a
>clone...  most of them will co-exist quite nicely, allowing you to quit
>OS/2 (or Windoze or whatever) and reboot in unix with X.
>
>-- 
>-------------------========================================-------------------
>Chris Herborth
>cherborth@semprini.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca

      Er, even though I've been quietly watching all this, I have to toss out
a point.  Everyone assumes MS-DOS on the PC for pretty much the same reason
everyone says GEM on the Atari....  The comparison is not exact but is fair.
MS-DOS (perhaps running Windows) is still pretty much the minimum you can get
by with on the PC.  GEM is the minimum for the ST.  You can add NeoDesk or
whatever to GEM in much the same fashion you add Windows to MS-DOS.

      (I may be wrong on this but isn't MS-Windows an application that runs
ontop of DOS?  Much like GEM runs on top of TOS?)

      In any case, my point is mainly that if you allow all PC/Clone OS/s and
GUI's into the arguement, it is probably fair to use all the Atari alternatives
as well....


      Another idea to think about is the concept of "sunk cost".  The money
I have spent on my Atari system is gone.  I can't get it back - it does not
in any way figure into whether or not I should buy an IBM.  I might like to
buy CORALDraw, but the additional cost of the new computer makes it prohibitive to me.   It would actually be easier to by Avant Vector at $400-$500.
      THe point of this is that it seems we are argueing apples and oranges
now and then.  There is a difference between scraping your Atari system for
an IBM (which I cannot right now concieve of doing) or by an IBM instead of
an Atari (which I might do, if the cicumstances were different).  This is
actually a problem for the Atari world since by and large only the first case
leads to new Atari Users.  Atari needs to find some way of bringing the second
kind of choice back to their side of the equation.  Which the Falcon may or
may not do.  (It all depends on whether they (Atari) can break into some sort
of new market and stay there.

      I've said too much already....

        _
/\/\/\/\> ... Slither ...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
From: dclemans@mentorg.com (Dave Clemans)
Subject: Re: STalker vs Uniterm?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:46:50 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corporation
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

fyi...
I have tried a few terminal programs under beta releases of MultiTOS.

Flash 1.6 was totally unusable. It looked as if Flash was trying to
directly access the hardware, and thus ended up competing for characters
with the serial port driver in MultiTOS. On average, there was only about
a 50% chance of getting a character you typed echoed back from the port.

"Freeze Dried Terminal" (I forget what version) showed exactly the same
symptoms.

Interlink worked in so far as sending/receiving characters went, but
it was obvious it didn't handle screen redraws correctly. The presence
of windows from other running programs and from the desktop trashed
Interlinks dialog buffers/windows.

Stalker 3.0 was rock solid. In addition I haven't noticed any speed
"problem" with it.

dgc
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st,comp.sys.atari.st.tech
From: bobf@flint.geology.yale.edu (Bob Fischer)
Subject: Re: Flaky mouse
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 01:47:43 GMT

Stephen Matson (stevem@solbourne.com) wrote:
: 
:  Recently my mouse has started to act less then obedient. It will work fine
: for hours (or sometimes just minutes) and then , badabing badaboom, every
: direction is reversed, up is down, down is up, left is.... well you get the 
: idea. The only way to fix this is to save what I'm doing and cold start it.
: 
:  Could this just be my mouse or is it something inside my box? 
: 
:  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I think this is an Atari virus.

--- Bob Fischer
From: micha@moko.saar.de (Michael Bongartz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Distribution: world
Organization: Michael Bongartz, private UUCP site, Saarbruecken/Germany
Subject: Re: Kosten
Keywords: Kosten - how to use it
Reply-To: micha@moko.saar.de
X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.04 Rev. Sep  5 1992
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1993 20:56:00 +0100

In <H.XtJiOXaBwjo@zebedee.uucp>, Geoffrey Coan writes:
> Does anyone know how to use the kosten program posted with Hermes, or
> what it does ?
> 
> My german isn't good enough to understand the readme posted with it, but
> I managed to work out from running it that I needed the LOGDIR environment
> variable set to the directory where my uucico log file is.  Having done this
> I get the following output:
> 
> Problem: Das Logfile UUCICO enthaelt keine Tarifzonentabelle.
> Bitte tragen Sie folgende Zeile als erst ein das Lofile ein:
> TARIFZONEN: <Sek. zum Billigtarif> <Sek. im Normaltarif> 

Hey Geoffrey!

This is an old hack written by me ;-)

The fact is that it works only in the german phone area because it
needs certain costs for one unit (time-interval), i.e. each unit
costs here 0.23 DM and has a certain length which differs depending
the actual time.

With the line 'TARIFZONEN: x y' you set set length of these time intervals
for two different day times.

But there was never a question from U.S. for patching the prog for U.S. use
too.

Sorry,
        Michael

-- 

EMail:  micha@moko.saar.de    /\/\    University:      bongartz@cs.uni-sb.de
Z-Netz: micha_b@hit.zer      /    \   Voice+Fax: +49 681 55654 (+ Ans-Mach.)
SnailMail: Michael Bongartz, Am Ordensgut 43, W-6600 Saarbruecken 1, Germany

Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
From: borgen@stud.cs.uit.no (Boerge Noest)
Subject: Re: The compatibility story (Falcon & A1200)
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:47:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.104407.29772@email.tuwien.ac.at> nino@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Marinos Yannikos) writes:
>Then again, most games don't use self-modifying code (ok, perhaps some of
>the games from former demo-coders),

Copy protection is the big sinner here.

> the stack frame isn't particularly
>interesting for games either (Can't think of any serious reason, this
>should only give vector-bending software a hard time),

If you change return address in an interrupt you get problems (basically
doing a sort of multitasking; switching from one part of the code to
another. I think I have heard SWIV being an example of this).

> and the timing
>won't be so much of a problem either, because 1. most games run in the
>VBL (so the speed depends on the display frequency), 2. those which don't
>won't run THAT much faster, since the Falcon is only 4-5 times faster
>than the ST in the ST modes... :)

Here I was talking about custom loaders that do something like:
	move.w	#3000,d0
wait	dbra	d0,wait

when they wait for the floppy to go from track to track or something else
that needs a delay.

>Well... Actually I don't think the old games are so important - except
>a few good ones (Dungeon Master ...) there isn't anything that will
>look or feel particularly good after you've seen some real Falcon games...

If we can throw away the oldest games then the compatability percent jumps up.
-- 
|/// borgen@stud.cs.uit.no (Boerge Noest) | Amiga B2000			 \\\|
|//  Box 218, 9001 Tromsoe, Norway	  | Remember to :-) when needed	  \\|
|/   The worlds northernmost university	  | Life is worth living.	   \|
#Disclaimer: This university and me does not agree.
From: wabe@ukc.ac.uk (W.A.B.Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: STalker vs Uniterm?
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:13:25 GMT
Reply-To: wabe@ukc.ac.uk (W.A.B.Evans)
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.

In article <1993Jan7.141838.18899@netcom.com> yonder@netcom.com (Christopher Russell) writes:
>screen.  Uniterm is no longer being updated, so no chance of this
>getting fixed.  I have to switch on my Spectre and load up Zterm if I

	Not true!!  Quite recently (within the last few months Simon Poole
released a slightly updated version (2.0e 015)). I understand the previous
lack of upgrades was partly at least due to him having had a disk crash &
losing some of the later sourcecodes. Still now there is every chance that
further upgrades might be forthcoming.

						W. Alan B. Evans
						[ wabe@ukc.ac.uk ]

P.S.   I found that Version 2.0e 015 can crash disastrously unless the
default sizes of some buffer (the system one, I think) is increased
slightly.
From: dmb@case.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: A letter to Dave Baggett
Date: 10 Jan 1993 07:25:07 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: case.ai.mit.edu

In article <1iobibINN79q@golem.wcc.govt.nz> wells_s@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>> The ST has some good software, but the clones have TONNES of good
>> software, and some GREAT software.  Where is CorelDRAW! or MicroGrafix
>> Designer for the ST?  Well, I could use Avaunt-Vektor, which costs about
>
>Prism Paint?!  The Cyber-Series!?  CAD-3D!?  Spectrum 512 (a little dated
>but it produces nice pictures)..  True-Paint (Dunno if it's been released
>yet or not).  

How about real-time 24-bit video on a Macintosh?  You *always* lose
when you play "Can You Top This" games with PC's and Mac's.  There's just  
more money spent on software in those markets.  ST developers couldn't
compete if they tried in today's market.  You don't spend $1 million
on a product you're going to sell a couple thousand of.

>If people wanted to run MS-Doze software, they would have purchased
>a 386, not an STE!  Think about it!!

I have thought about it, and perhaps I should have done that in the
first place.

>Also - did you know that the ST/E's biggest use, is for music!?  

Ha!  I laugh in your general direction.  You think the ST runs the best
MIDI software nowadays?  Look at how many sequencer companies have
balied from the ST market and gone to the Mac and PC markets.  As for
the STe, any machine that boasts 8-bit sample playback but only
supports four nonstandard playback speeds (6.25, 12.5, 25, 50 kHz) is a
joke.

>(You may have noticed those MIDI ports on the side 8-)  

I've also noticed that since PC's have the amazingly novel ability to
accept cards, I can buy a MIDI card and plug it in, and use it on a
reasonably spritely machine.  It's a damn good thing they're built into
the ST, isn't it, otherwise we'd be SOL on that front, wouldn't we?

>And Great software such as Notator, Cu-Base, etc. (Of which
>there's been a lot of rights-swapping lately.)

What NEW software has been written in these categories?  I mean, as in
written in 1992.  MIDI software is a growing business in the PC and Mac
sectors.

>Dogs Crawl under fences.... Software crawls under windows....

'Twas brillig and the slithy toves...

Dave Baggett
--
dmb@ai.mit.edu           MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory                  
ADVENTIONS: interactive fiction (text adventures) for the 90's!
dmb@ai.mit.edu *** Compu$erve: 76440,2671 *** GEnie: ADVENTIONS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: re W Magro's posting
From: jonc@status.gen.nz (Jon Clarke)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 11:32:34 GMT
Organization: The Z*NET Global News Gateway in Parnell New Zealand.

cherborth@semprini.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Chris Herborth) writes:
 
                   (bits deleted)
 

> You weren't paying much attention to Atari's last two "new" computers,
> were you?  MegaSTe and Falcon030 are _barely_ classifiable as expandible
> and upgradable.  There is a serious lack of modularity in Atari's
> designs, and they don't seem to keen on fixing that shortcoming.  After
> all, they've been listening to us complain about it for _at_least_ seven
> years now.
> 
 
 Well Atari may not have expanded their machines but the 3rd Party
 developers have. 
 
 Chris just stop and think of ...
 
 - Spectre
 - Sound cards
 - Happy (the orginal) 
 - All the accelerator cards
 - Video cards
 - Hard disks
 - CD cards
 - Rom cards/drives 
 - and the list goes on and on and on and on
 
 Hmm this resembles the same sort of upgrades you get for the PC to me




 Jon Clarke                                                     Z*NET Pacific
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  jonc@status.gen.nz           GEnie: J.Clarke6        Hexagon: HSBC NZM EBD
  Phone: (+649) 358-5589       IFNA : 3/772:105        GEM    : NZM CABLES
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     "Practise safe computing ! Wear a write protect tab!" jc 1988
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
From: qb7g6@fel.tno.nl (Maarten Landzaat)
Subject: Help with Hermes please:cannot post
Organization: TNO Physics and Electronics Laboratory
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 09:15:32 GMT

Hi,
I have Hermes 1.03 installed now. I can send mail, receive mail, read news.
But I haven't managed to post an article yet. (This posting is done
elsewhere)

I suspect I have to put a line in the "sys" file. But I don't have a 
description of the file's format; there is no sys(5). 
Can anybody please enlighten me?

Are you Hermes users pleased with it? Are there alternatives?

Thanks!
-- 
Maarten J. Landzaat (analyst/programmer, bass player, Atari/midi freak)
BSO/Aerospace & Systems			Mail: Spuistraat 97
Email: maarten.landzaat@fel.tno.nl	      1012 SV  Amsterdam
Phone: +31 20 6266098			      The Netherlands
From: dlk0ms9s@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: The compatibility story (Falcon & A1200)
Date: 10 Jan 93 11:07:19 EST
Organization: Univ of Miami IR

In article <1993Jan9.150240@cs.bham.ac.uk>, dxo@cs.bham.ac.uk (David Oakley) writes:
> In article <H.mcBUgFWEjuY@fredrik.atari.no>, jornmoe@fredrik.atari.no (Joern Moe) writes:
> |> 
> |> Comodore officialy say that 60% of current A500 software works on the A1200.
> |> Impressive? I don't think so!
> |> 
> |> Compo (large german company that develop and sell ST/TT/Falcon software and
> |> hardware addons) have had a thorough test of a large base of existing ST 
> |> software to see if it worked on the Falcon 030, and they found that 95% (no 
> |> kiddin', ninty-five%) do run!
> |> This is even better than what Atari self hoped for, and it is MUCH better
> |> than what the TT can show up with. I have a TT and have little problems to 
> |> get the software I need.
> |> 
> 
> Yeah... There's a small problem with that though... Atari said to all the
> magazine publishers that the Falcon wasn't particularly supposed to be compatible
> with the STe, so that's what their writing. The games press are saying that the
> A1200 is better 'cause 60% of standard Amiga stuff (exactly what that means I'm
> not sure) will run.
> 
> A good bit to get people flaming is...
> 
> With regard to A500 games...
> 
> 60% of A600 stuff runs on the A1200
> 80% of A500+ stuff runs on the A600
> 50% of A500 stuff runs on the A500+.
> 
  NOT to start a flame war here, but a note on math.

  since 50% of the games run on a 500+ and only 80% of those run on a 600 and
of those only 60% run on the 1200.  Now, I don't know about you but if you pump
it out, lets use an aribtrary number like 100 ok?(NOTE I know there are more
than 100 programs available for the Amiga.)

 50% of 100 is 50.
 80% of 50 is 40.
 60% of 40 is 24!

  So 24 out of 100 games should work on the 1200.  Personally, I don't find
this all to comforting, especially considering the shape that the world is in
today.  Are you going to spend that much money on a system that only can use
less than a quarter of the available programs for it?  see 24/100.



> Which in total isn't a particularly good compatibility rating!
> 
> :-)
> 
> David.



/^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
[ Mark Santora                                                       ]
[ DLK0MS9S@umiami.ir.miami.edu                                       ]
[ GEnie : M.SANTORA2                Look with more than your eyes... ]
\____________________________________________________________________/

Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
From: bcballi@cs.vu.nl (Ballintijn GC)
Subject: Re: MTOS
Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:46:47 GMT

hutch@bellman.lanl.gov (John Hutchinson) writes:

>MultiTOS is not available as yet, Wolfgang. It was supposed to 
>ship with the new Falcons but has been delayed (what else is new?).
>Last I heard, Atari had not decided on whether to make it available 
>for owners of pre-Falcon machines or not.
>Maybe someone else on the net can give us an update on MultiTOS?

Today I went to a falcon exhibit, where I saw the falcon. I
also saw it using MTOS. It looked good. Especialy if the programs
were behaving correct (not using screens but windows). The man
I spoked to said that MTOS will have memory protection on those
models with a 68030 (Falcon and TT, I presume). I also heard
that the first falcon would arrive in two weeks. Ofcourse we
are here in Holland (and we all smoke hash, how I like those
stereotype :-) ).

Gerco (bcballi@cs.vu.nl)
From: Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Last time on this one
Date: Tue,  5 Jan 93 22:57:04 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1ich3hINN9il@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <1993Jan5.215807.17246@sfu.ca>

Gordon Farrell wrote, regarding Darek's relations with Atari:
 
>he explained that the problem dated back to the days when he was working
>in the XFORMER 8-bit emulator.  Atari refused to let him sell it with the
>BIOS chips (I believe he said they wouldn't sell the chips to him in the
>first place).  Darek was less than pleased with this action, and thus began
>his personal vendetta against Atari Corp.

>While I think that Darek has over-reacted a bit to this action by Atari,
>(Dave Small's relations with Apple seem much better Darek and Atari's)

This is all very true, but the actual events go even deeper than
that.   I remember calling a BBS in Kitchner, Ontario so I could
get the latest versions of the "Apple II/Atari 800" emulator
for GEnie.  I thought it was a  *great*  idea.. the perfect
"bridge" that Atari 800 owners needed to make moving to the
ST platform the logical step.  The ST was TOTALLY incompatible
with the 8-bit Atari.. you couldn't even reformat your floppy
disks and reuse them.  An 8-bit owner had NO reason to blindly
buy an ST..  and a lot of them did take the opportunity to look
around at what else was available.  A lot of them ended up going
with the Amiga, since it was the logical successor to the
8-bit Atari.
 
An emulator which would let them use all their old software, and
would even allow them eventually to use their 8-bit disk drives
on a shiny new ST would be just perfect for Atari to support.
 
In typical Atari fashion however, they came out with both barrels
blazing, shooting themselves in both feet at the same time.
 
They couldn't get used to the idea that a teenage kid from
Kitchner, Ontario could not only envision something like this,
but actually make it work.
 
Atari's master of "Public Relations", Neil Harris, publically
called Darek a "little twerp" and said Atari would never deal
with him.
 
So, not because of technical problems, but simply because of
their egos, Atari lost the chance to offer this bridge to their
new computer.  Darek went on in spite of them and made the
emulator work.
 
Nice way to begin a career supporting a particular computer, eh?
 
(Incidentally, not all that many people know this either, but
Atari originally laughed at Dave Small, saying 'who would ever
want to emulate a Macintosh on their ST?'  Stupid idea, wasn't
it...   imagine where we'd be today if Dave Small hadn't gone
on independently, again, in spite of Atari.)
 
As I mentioned before, you have NO idea what it's like trying
to deal with Atari Corp. until YOU have experienced it.
 
BobR
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
From: hjv@phil.ruu.nl (Hendrik Jan Veenstra)
Subject: Re: Question : ___ M-ROS ___
Organization: Department of Philosophy, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 13:35:03 GMT

wells_s@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (Steve Wells) writes:

>In article <743@vercors.frec.bull.fr>, heritier@delta4.frec.bull.fr (Franck HERITIER) writes:
>>Does someone know what is M-ROS for Atari ST ? What is the editor
>>of this multitask system ? Can you evaluate it ?
>>
>M-ROS!?  Maybe you mean M-TOS!?  (Correct me if I'm wrong).

>It's just like GEM (the usualy desktop), except you can run several
And if he meant M-ROS: M-ROS is a multitasking environment for Steinberg
music-software (Cubase sequencer, Avalon sample-editor, various synth-editors,
ect.).  But I think I already replied to the same question about a week ago...
I don't understand the editor-question.  What do you mean?  And are we talking
about MTOS or MROS here?

--
Hendrik Jan Veenstra    hjv@phil.ruu.nl  *  How can I save my dreams
Dept. of Philosophy                      *  in the nightmare, in the flood
University of Utrecht                    *  But I try.
The Netherlands                          *
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st,news.groups
From: hjv@phil.ruu.nl (Hendrik Jan Veenstra)
Subject: Re: RFD: What to do with comp.binaries.atari.st/comp.sources.atari.st?
Organization: Department of Philosophy, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:27:48 GMT

dud@hardy.u.washington.edu (Daniel Aylward) writes:

>koreth@spud.Hyperion.COM (Steven Grimm) writes:
>So what might be a good idea is to open the newsgroups to
>discussion of the latest software, of all varieties.

I always thought that this was one of the purposes of c.s.a.st...  As far as
I recall, that *was* one of the purposes...  long ago, before the flame-wars
and falcon-threads.

>Just my thoughts...

And just one of mine...

--
Hendrik Jan Veenstra    hjv@phil.ruu.nl  *  How can I save my dreams
Dept. of Philosophy                      *  in the nightmare, in the flood
University of Utrecht                    *  But I try.
The Netherlands                          *
From: dxo@cs.bham.ac.uk (David Oakley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: The compatibility story (Falcon & A1200)
Date: 11 Jan 93 12:07:54 GMT
Organization: ASTRAsoft, Stoke-On-Trent England.

Re my statement and 24/100...

There is a boot up option on the A1200 which disables the extra chips (eg AA etc)
and so this apparently increases compatibility dramatically. One of the Amiga
magazines got a 40% compatability with old games and 90% for games < 1yr old.

I'll still get a Falcon, but we need to get correct info on the opposition if we
want to beat them!

David.

     +--------------------------------------------------+
     |  David Oakley,   ASTRAsoft shareware producers.  |\
     |  Internet: dxo@cs.bham.ac.uk                     | |
     |  RealMail: 6 Watlands Rd. Bignall End, S-O-T     | |
     |            Staffs ST7 8QQ, England.              | |
     +--------------------------------------------------+ |
      \__________________________________________________\|
Kryten : 'Pub: ah, yes, a meeting place where people attempt to
          reach advanced states of mental incompetence by the
          repeated consumption of fermented vegtable drinks.'
From: clausb@hpbbrd.bbn.hp.com (Claus Brod)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:34:00 GMT
Subject: Re: QUESTION: Syquest 44 boot
Organization: HP Mechanical Design Division