From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 14 Oct 92 13:54:41 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

>adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>
>> Remember, the Constitution LIMITS the power of government and reserves most
>> rights (and decisions) to people.  There is a clear idea of privacy
>> contained in the Bill of Rights...
>
>Not when it comes to matters illegal, immoral, or unethical.  The feds can
>tap your private phone conversations if they have a enough reason to
>suspect illegal activity, and can get a judge to concur.

Unethical != illegal
Immoral != illegal

Who I sleep with (so long as they are adults) and how I do it is none of the 
government's business.  What I read is none of the government's business.

I can do things that are unethical but perfectly legal.

>> And the Bible is IRRELEVANT to our system of government.  It is valid ONLY
>> for those who accept it as the guiding principle of their lives.  I do.
>> Many others don't.  And I won't impose it on them.
>
>Interesting theory, but that's not what God says, or our founding
>fathers(tm) for that matter.  Consider the following article.

You do of course know that many of the Founders, including Jefferson were
NOT Christians, they were Deists.

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                       "Underground, into the shadows"
>
>"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done
>what is detestable," says Leviticus 20:13.  "they must be put to death;
>their blood will be on their own heads."
>
>For a Christian, the basic rationale for suppressing homosexual behavior --
>along with adultery, incest, rape, theft, kidnapping, murder, bribery,
>slander, fraud, oppression of the poor, and so on -- is simple; the Bible
>says so.
Exactly.  For a Christian who accepts it as God's word.  And perhaps for a 
Jew who accepts it as God's word.  But not for anyone else.  This doesn't 
apply to anyone who rejects it....

>A Christian who objects, in principle, to the illegalization of
>homosexuality has the responsibility to confront biblical law honestly.  If
>the Torah is truly God's word, and not just the megalomaniacal ravings of a
>desert cult leader, then it is the objective standard of truth, in terms of
>which all men, institutions, and ideas must be judged.  It really comes
>down to the one question that has troubled humanity since the days of Adam
>and Eve: Is God's word our standard or not?  Ultimately, there is only one
>other alternative, the word of the serpent.
God's word is MY standard.  And yours, it would seem.  But it DOES NOT
APPLY to people who reject the message.  Can't you understand that?  People
who do not beleive in God reject the teachings of the Bible.  Our system
allows people to ignore the Bible...in fact, it gives them the right to.

>To those who object that the biblical laws against homosexuality come from
>the Old Testament, I reply; so what?  Isn't the God of the Old Testament
>the same as the God of the New Testament?  Is there any biblical indication
>that his ideas of morality have changed?  The Marcionite heresy -- that the
>evil, vengeful god of the Old Testament has been replaced by the New
>Testament god of love -- is alien to the Bible itself, and was rightly
>condemned by the early church.
So what?  Again, you are forcing religion on people who don't want it.
Heresy and blasphemy mean NOTHING to someone who rejects the Bible as the
word of God.  The Bible means NOTHING to someone who rejects God in
general, or is a non Christian.  Think about it for a minute...

>It is true that the New Testament does not specifically command that we
>have laws against homosexuality -- but then the New Testament doesn't
>specifically command laws against murder, extortion, or anything else.
>There is merely St. Paul's general statement in Romans 13:4 that the civil
>ruler "is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the
>wrongdoer."
This message is to BELIEVERS!  You are to follow the commands of the civil
authority!  If the civil authority says abortion is legal, then so be it.
If the civil authority says homosexuality is permitted, then so be it.  YOU
are under obligation to obey the rulers, so long as they do not force you
personally to violate God's laws.  Unless you are being forced to have an
abortion or forced to engage in homosexual activity, you MAY NOT RESIST the
civil authority.

>The obvious question at this point is: What is a "wrongdoer"?  Who decides?
>It is only reasonable to assume that St. Paul expects the ruler to consult
>God's law, rather than his own imagination or the latest poll results, to
>discover what "wrong" is and what the appropriate punishment should be for
>any offense.  Any fair reading of biblical law to discern its wisdom for
>the nations inevitably leads to the conclusion that homosexuality should be
>suppressed.
Not at all!  Remember, the Christians were living in areas where the rulers
were NOT Christian.  He knows that they are living under non-Christian
rulers.  He tells them to follow the civil authorities.  Just as Jesus said
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's"

>This doesn't mean rounding up all suspected homosexuals for prosecution.  A
>biblically-ordered legal system requires proof of wrongdoing; multiple
>lines of evidence and independent witnesses to specific acts in order to
>convict.  The burden of proof is always on the prosecution.  Moreover, even
>in the most favorable circumstances, it is difficult to find credible
>witnesses, and in the nature of the case this would be especially true of
>homosexual acts.  Note that it is not "effeminate" tendencies, appearances,
>or mannerisms that fall under the Bible's legal ban, but specifically-
>defined sexual behavior.
The Bible has NO legal authority in our system.  No religious tests are to
be applied...and people are to be free from a state sponsored religion.  If
the Bible is enforced in law, that violates the establishment clause!

>The fact is, rampant homosexuality poses both moral and physical dangers to
>society.  The sanitized, Holloywood prime-time version of homosexuality --
>sweet, gentle, "gay" men of heightened artistic sensibilities strolling
>along a beach at sunset -- masks the real truth: homosexuality is a
>degrading, sadomasochistic perversion that inextricably entwines sex with
>blood and excrement.  Even before AIDS came along, homosexuals were
>crawling with all kinds of revolting diseases, direct consequences of their
>acts -- "receiving in themselves," Romans 1:27 says, "the due penalty for
>their perversion."
Well, then why don't you let God worry about it? 

But, realisitically, this is a hate-filled comment you make.  That AIDS is
some sort of punishment for homosexuality.  Tell that to Ryan White.  Or
Kimberly Bergalis.  What were they 'punished' for???

>None of this should be read as condoning "hate crimes" against homosexuals.
>Anyone who murders a homosexual should be put to death. Anyone who beats up
>a homosexual or destroys his property should be punished as severely as if
>he had assaulted anyone else.  We should not, however, create special
>categories of hate crimes.  Such attacks are always wrong, no matter who
>the victim is.
Except that you are encouraging this by claiming that God objects to this
and it should be punished...

>This should not be perceived as a utopian program to eradicate all sin.  In
>a fallen world, there will always be homosexuality.  But it can be driven
>underground, into the shadows where it belongs.
Underground where it belongs?  What ARE you talking about?  Why should
someone who's values, beliefs and lifestyle differ from yours be driven
underground?  Where is the love and tolerance?

THIS NATION IS NOT GOVERNED BY THE BIBLE, NOR SHOULD IT BE.

>                                        David Chilton
>                                        _World_ Magazine
>                                        Vol. 7 #20, 10/10/92

Tom, your beliefs are exactly that, yours.  Please don't seek to impose
your morals on those who are different from you.  Jesus taught that you
should hate the sin but love the sinner, remember?

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558