HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dabrowsa@ute.ucs.indiana.edu (Andrew Dabrowski)
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go (& some comparison
Summary: handicaps
Keywords: go analogy life power chess
Organization: UCS, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:17:55 GMT

In article <#=9mj6j@lynx.unm.edu> blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.) writes:
> Giving or recieving stones also has the
>advantage that it doesn't change the game a whole lot- the basic strategies
>are still the same.

I've heard this many times but I don't think I believe it. Doesn't it change
the basic strategies a lot if you start from a position which is
theoretically lost?  It means that rather than playing the objectively
best moves you must play over-ambitiously in the hope that your opponent
will make a mistake.

>That and its more difficult [in chess] to establish an even balance,
>even if ratings are known.

The main difference here may be simply that the handicap system is much
more commonly used in go and thus much better understood.  Admittedly,
the system in go is much simpler than it could be in chess, but this
just reflects the difference in complexity between the rules of the games.

Andrew Dabrowski			Try again.  Fail again.  Fail better
Indiana U., Bloomington			-Worstward Ho
dabrowsa@ucs.indiana.edu		 Samuel Beckett
From: jansteen@cwi.nl (Jan van der Steen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Commented games
Date: 19 Aug 92 09:44:56 GMT

schoett@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Oliver Schoett) writes:

>Some time ago someone asked in this group for more comments in the
>games that are stored electronically.  Here is an interesting
>quotation from Akira Ishida and James Davies, ``Attack and Defense''
>Tokyo: Ishi Press 1980 (Elementary Go Series, Vol. 5), p. 251:

>                          Professional Games
>
>   Once a certain level has been reached, perhaps around 1-2 kyu, a
>   great deal can be learned by looking at professional games.  It is
>   best to ignore the commentary and just play through the game move
>   by move on your own, trying to understand why each stone was played
>   and what it accomplished, and trying to anticipate the next stone.
>   That you see only a tiny fraction of what is going on does not
>   matter; working that tiny fraction out for yourself is what counts.

By experience I can say that this is true. Before I went to the Go club
I already enjoyed replaying professional Go games. It gave me pleasure
for two reasons: pro games are exciting (!) and without actually making
any effort it gave me more "feeling" for the game.
The latter meaning that unconciencely I learnt about concepts like "shape",
and "timing" and besides of course I learnt about "joseki" and "fuseki".

We often had "replay pro game meetings" where one of the participants
would replay a professional game giving the other participants the
opportunity to think of and try to guess the next move. Of course, for
amateur players it's almost impossible to have the next move right but
the "replayer" would not comment on suggestions like: "wrong" or
"right", but more like:  "almost", "a bit later", "good idea, different
shape though", keeping it stimulating for all of the participants.

>I find that this mode indeed makes me more active when studying a game
>than just consuming commentary like "If W had played here, he would
>have won the fight with the sequence in Dia. .. (shows 17 move
>sequence)".  If that is beyond a professional to see during a game, it
>is certainly not the kind of consideration relevant for my own play.

Good point!

>It is interesting to look at the commentary afterwards; particularly
>about whose position is better and why.

Agree, and if I may add something: a good way to test which moves you
understood and which you didn't fully understand you may try to
replayed the game by hard. The moves which you don't remember are most
likely the ones which you didn't understand.

>By the way, I find the book excellent.

Again I have to agree fully with you. It's one of the few Go books
I will recommend other players to study.

Jan van der Steen (3d)

-- 
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     Jan van der Steen                 jansteen@cwi.nl
     Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science (CWI)
     Kruislaan 413, 1098 SJ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: xliao@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Subject: Re: The Game Go -- Frequently Asked Questions
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 04:11:56 GMT
From: ssw@aber.ac.uk (Simon Ward)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: SmartGo programs for the Atari ST
Date: 17 Aug 92 09:03:21 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, University of Wales, Aberystwyth

Subject line says it all .... does anyone know of any SmartGo programs that
run on the Atari? Since I'm only a beginner (in every sense :-) ) it would be
rather nice to learn from `real' games (such as the Danghu games which have
been posted recently)

Thanks in advance,

Simon.

Simon Ward            | Myfyrwr Uwchraddegion Ffiseg.
Department of Physics | Atari Owner, Beer drinker, Bass player ..............
University of Wales   | "Why are we here, because we're here,Roll the Bones"
Aberystwyth           |                            - Rush
Dyfed, WALES, UK.     | EMAIL: ssw@aber.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: Michael_Pizolato@afs.com (Michael Pizolato)
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go (& some comparison
Reply-To: Michael_Pizolato@afs.com
Distribution: world 
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:43:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.130129.371@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>  writes:
> Just a few more words on the comparison of go and chess.
> 
> Both games are similar in their depth of combination; the overwhelming  
importance
> of reading; the vital concept of sente; the relative nature of opening, middle
> game and endgame; the concepts of kikashi, zwichtenzug, aji and many others.

I have heard it said that the difficulty of chess is comparable to 11x11 go, at  
least as far as creating go- and chess-playing programs are concerned.  Anyone  
have more or better info on this?

Michael

--
Michael_Pizolato@afs.com
~18 kyu
Q16
NeXTMail appreciated
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
From: Rudy.Zalesak@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Rudy Zalesak)
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go (& some comparison
Keywords: go analogy life power chess
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 09:50:03 GMT

Bill Taylor writes:
>I wish I could be optimistic that we will eventually see Western books on
>shogi, using Western-style symbols as I've suggested; but I fear it is a
>hopeless dream.

I found the Japanese characters perfectly understandable after practice;
they are much more complex (and thus distinguishable) than using 
Roman letters, which Ishi press' English-language Shogi newsletter
uses. Some Japanese fonts are easier on the eye than others though;
the game set I have uses a "script"-like font that is hard on the eye.

I haven't had the opportunity to play more than a couple of games
of Shogi (with a friend who is as much a beginner as myself) but the 
main improvement I would like to see is some kind of attractive color
scheme, to make the board easier to read.
Maybe the forward edges could be orange, and the back edges green?
(I think the colors should be subtle).

Bill may be right though in saying chess-like icons could make the game
diagrams easier (for Westerners); I would like to see experimentation
along these lines. Maybe we should suggest to ISHI's newsletter that
they could ask for submissions along these lines, and they could publish
the best.

By the way the font/piece icons on the CranesShogi shareware Mac program
are very attractive. 

		-- Rudy Zalesak


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: cb@wixer.cactus.org (Cyberspace Buddha)
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 07:12:53 GMT


> What? no one has remembered the similarity of go to Conway's
> life?

well, since I'm new to this here net, no.  But since Conway's Life has been
taken to 3D <probably more by now>, what say you to a 3D go?    

While I'm here, I'll save some bandwitdh & ask for pointers to good
beginning books/text files on go.

thanks,
cb

---
this <censored> has been <censored> into <censored>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,comp.ai,rec.games.programmer,rec.games.chess
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 03:34:15 -0400 
From: "Jonathan R. Ferro" <jf41+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: comp.games.research
	<1992Aug18.172526.392@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>

wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes:
> I'd like to see a newsgroup for strategic board games in general,
> othello, go-moku, etc, but OTHER THAN commercial board games of the
> war-game or role-playing type.
> 
> I know there is a rec.games.board  but this seems to be full of
> commercial board games, which is not really what I'm into.

PLEASE use rec.games.board!  It's for ANY games that use a board that
don't have their own group.  PLEASE start discussions on any game that
you like!  The regulars on rec.games.board are usually willing to talk
about anything, just ask them.  Please DON'T start wishing for new
groups until the topics have proven their staying power in groups that
already cover them!

--
Jon Ferro		MIT Transportation Modelling Research Center (TMRC)
jf41+@andrew.cmu.edu	"We can hack it!"
SGNTR VRS VRSN 3.1B: Strppd nd cmprssd fr qckr trnsmssn! nfct yrs tdy!
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: gardner@cs.monash.edu.au ()
Subject: Meanings of technical terms in Go?
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:05:56 GMT

Well, I read the FAQ and to my surprise this isn't an FAQ, so could some
knowledgeable person please help me by explaining the meanings of the
technical terms used to describe certain situations in Go? I have in
mind specifically words like sente, atari, aji ( I think I understand
ko and joseki). I've been trying to firgure them out from context but
I'm tellin' ya, it ain't easy :-)

Thanks in advance,

*******************************************************************************
* __  ___  ___ \    /  ___  |  *                                              * 
*|__   |  |__   \  /  |__   |  *    "Open the pod bay doors, please, Hal."    *
*___|  |  |___   \/   |___  o  *                                              *
*gardner@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au*                                              *
*******************************************************************************


Xref: sparky rec.games.go:1569 rec.games.chess:6124
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go (& some comparison
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:26:53 +1200
Distribution: world 
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury

>Finally, someone else was talking about 3-D go. The classic problem with it
>is that stones have too many liberties, since the coordination number (the
>number of adjacent points) of each point is six instead of four.

I don't agree that this is the problem. I think the real problem with 3-D go
(and most 3-D games) is that it's just too hard for our 2-D brains to cope
with the visualization of 3-D geometry.

A more positive reason why I think the 6-liberty feature is not a difficulty
is this. We have played a bit of hexagonal-board go, from time to time, at the
club. Though it doesn't have the full tactical complexity of regular go, (no
cutting points, thus no cross-cuts, no ko, no ladders), it still has most of
the other features, (sente/gote, two eyes, importance of connection, easier
life at the edges etc) and is a thoroiughly enjoyable and interesting game;
though not a patch on regular go, of course.

I warmly recommend it as a light-hearted extra, for relaxing after tournaments,
and the like, where fun variants are often played. It has its own features of
interest. It is a far *more* strategic game than go, as close tactical concerns
are absent. Its strategy is perhaps more reminiscent of the connection game 
"hex", than it is of regular go.

It's not too difficult to rule up and copy off a 91-point board (equivalent to
a 9x9 regular game).

Give it a try !
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Bill Taylor              wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free will - the result of chaotic amplification of quantum events in the brain.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: blakeno@arte.sos.ivy.isc.com (Blake Noah)
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go
Reply-To: blakeno@ism.isc.com
Organization: Interactive Systems Corp.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 01:09:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.132447.18948@syma.sussex.ac.uk>, sepa6@syma.sussex.ac.uk (David Amos) writes:
|> To continue this thread, why is it that most of the analogies suggested
|> so far have stressed the combat aspect of Go? I admit it is a pretty
|> important fact about the game, but there are loads of games about
|> combat. I'd like to see more analogies that stress what is distinctive
|> about Go.


At the risk of continuing with this thread until we completely unravel the 
suit ...

This reminds me of something I once read  (pardon the likely paraphrase) :

"Go is like a conversation between two sages."

Somehow, I suspect they had better players than myself in mind. My games
contain way too much babbling. Still, I find the phrase more appealing as
time goes by.

-- 
O. Blake Noah		INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
blakeno@ivy.isc.com	26635 W. Agoura Rd, Suite 200
818-880-1200 		Calabasas, CA  91302

Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
From: regan@acsu.buffalo.edu (Kenneth Regan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: SHOGI! (odds-giving and "distance" in ability)
Keywords: go analogy life power chess shogi
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:02:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: acsu.Bt914x.384
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci


Ten years ago, Larry Kaufman gave me odds of Hisha and Kaku (Rook and
Bishop), which is the Shogi analogue of Queen odds at chess.
He thrashed me twice handily.
To make me and my IM title feel worse, he confided that the Shogi world
champion could probably beat /him/ at odds of Hisha and Kaku.

These odds are not so extreme in Shogi as in chess because you cannot
win by "exchanging down", since captured pieces return to play.
The odds taker at Shogi must attack to win.

Now:-------
Say two players differ by a "fundamental rating unit" (FRU) if one
expects to score 75% against the latter.  The Elo system with coefficients
(16, 4%) used by the USCF has an FRU of 200 points.
Hence a novice 1200 player is about 8 FRU's away from Kasparov.
The FRU concept applies to any game, and my hunch is that in Shogi and Go,
the FRU distance from novice to world champ is much greater than in chess.

		Reactions?  Comments?   --Ken Regan




-- 
Kenneth W. Regan           			Assistant Professor
Computer Science Dept.				(Opinions not < SUNYaB)
SUNY at Buffalo, 226 Bell Hall			Tel.: (716) 636-3189, -3180
Buffalo,  NY  14260				regan@cs.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.misc
From: karttu@mits.mdata.fi (Antti Karttunen)
Subject: Re: other oriental games
Organization: MITS, Helsinki, Finland
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 01:04:14 GMT

In article <Bt4107.EFF@iat.holonet.net> mrkeys@orac.holonet.net (Kevin Moore) writes:
>
>A couple of questions about other oriental games
>but unrelated-to-Go:
> 
>Chinese Chess: I've seen that there are 2 programs for IBM that
>play Chinese Chess, one that Ishi Press has and another one that is
>animated called Battle Chess. How well do these play, are there any
>other programs out there (maybe for the Mac?) that I don't know about?
>I recently heard about a new hand-held electronic *Chinese Chess*
>unit, has anyone seen it?

Well, I saw some small ones in Hong Kong a year ago, and somewhat bigger,
more traditional looking Chinese Chess computer board two years ago
in Singapore. It was made by some known manufacturer of 'western' chess
computer board, maybe by Novag (?)

Now, does anybody know whether there is similar ones for Shogi?
I asked everybody in Tokyo about that, but nobody seemed to have seen
thing like that. I don't mean any Shogi-modules for the common videogame
consoles, but true Shogi-computer, i.e. 'board' which is kept on
table, like the chess ones.

> 
>Shogi: I know of 2 programs, one for IBM that Ishi Press has,
>and one very weak PD one for the Mac, are there any others
>available? I think I saw something about a Computer Shogi
>Tournament in Japan later this year?

Well, I think that Japanese use Shogi-program coded for their own
peculiar computers like PC9800, etc. I have one, but unfortunately
it doesn't run on the ordinary 'western' PC's.
 

-- 
Antti Karttunen       --  $B%"%s%C%F%#!!%+%k%C%H%%%M%s(J  (et{ty|t|n)
karttu@mits.mdata.fi  --  Apatheist, although not particularly proud of it.
From: kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:34:03 GMT
Organization: neh.

In article <16b39jINN6id@hal.com> woodstck@hal.com (Nathan Hess) writes:
>Well, there are those who find in Go analogies to life.  And then there
>are those who find in life analogies to Go...
>

What? no one has remembered the similarity of go to Conway's
life?


Wasn't there a serious mathematical discussion here in this
newsgroup of using lifelike finite state automata and fractal
analysis to aid in the playing of go?

-- 
David Kassover             "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover	          sharp weapons and dull judges."
kassover@aule-tek.com                   F. Collins
kassover@ra.crd.ge.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: bingham@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (David Bingham)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: igo.zip
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:31:22 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Rosa, CA

In rec.games.go, harres@sundance.uwyo.edu (John M. Harres) writes:

    I recently downloaded igo.zip from ftp.u.washington.edu.  On unpacking with
    pkunzip, I got failed CRC checks on multiple files.

    Has anyone else had this problem?  Are there alternate sites for sources?

Bad CRC usually means you forgot to use BINary mode for the download. (Why
do I feel like I'm asking if you remembered to plug something in?)

David
bingham@sr.hp.com
From: soren@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Barratt Moy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Please help me
Date: 23 Aug 92 02:10:57 GMT
Distribution: rec.games.go
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA

Hi I just learned go and I am now trying to get better.  I have yet to play a 
game, which I intend to change rather quickly.   But could someone give me some
advice on how to get better at go??  Are there any good books out there? 

Thank you very much for your help

Soren
From: chapmand@chdasic.sps.mot.com (David Chapman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: US Congress 1992
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:37:42 GMT

Hi,
I would be grateful if someone could post the results of
the 1992 US Congress. If someone has the results of the 1992
European Go Congress, I would be interested in them as well.

chapmand@chdasic.sps.mot.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: storm@med.umich.edu (John Starkweather )
Subject: Re: ***What's Going On at IGS??***
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 10:57:11 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan, Mathematics Department, Ann Arbor
Originator: storm@explorer.math.lsa.umich.edu


argh, i am having withdra......  pains!

help!
From: jfw@neuro.duke.edu (John F. Whitehead)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Mac versions of Go that work?
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:29:24 GMT
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.

I'm trying to find a version of Go that will work on a Mac.  I have
gotten MacGo and Dragon from milton, but neither will work.  Though
the hqx and sit files were converted with no errors, the programs
crash the machine when executed.  I am running System 7, so perhaps
that's the problem.  Does anyone have a pointer to a good Mac game
that works with System 7?

Thanks!

-- 
 ________________________________________________________________________
|   John      jfw@neuro.duke.edu          Duke University Medical Center |
| Whitehead   jfw@well.sf.ca.us           Department of Neurobiology     |
|________________________________________ Durham, North Carolina ________|
From: bingham@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (David Bingham)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Wanted: Many Faces of Go
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:57:11 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Rosa, CA


   Just on a whim... Has anyone out there got a copy of The Many Faces of
Go that they aren't using any longer? One that they'd like to sell?

David Bingham
bingham@sr.hp.com

P.S. For the IBM PC
From: li@bellman.aa.washington.edu (Rufeng Li)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Where are there GO servers?
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:30:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug18.223040.21179
Reply-To: li@aa.washington.edu
Organization: U of Wash Dept of Aeronautics and Astronautics

In article <168476BCA.M20481@mwvm.mitre.org>, M20481@mwvm.mitre.org writes:

>Could someone please tell me the IP address and the host names to the GO
>servers?I am a beginner and don't know where they are at.
>

telnet 128.32.201.46 6969

Have fun.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: mrkeys@orac.holonet.net (Kevin Moore)
Subject: Re: other oriental games
Organization: HoloNet (BBS: 510-704-1058)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 04:12:07 GMT








I'll try again:
A couple of questions about other oriental games
but unrelated-to-Go:
 
Chinese Chess: I've seen that there are 2 programs for IBM that
play Chinese Chess, one that Ishi Press has and another one that is
animated called Battle Chess. How well do these play, are there any
other programs out there (maybe for the Mac?) that I don't know about?
I recently heard about a new hand-held electronic *Chinese Chess*
unit, has anyone seen it?
 
Shogi: I know of 2 programs, one for IBM that Ishi Press has,
and one very weak PD one for the Mac, are there any others
available? I think I saw something about a Computer Shogi
Tournament in Japan later this year?
 
Mah-jong: I saw 3 different programs for the Mac in Japan that played
Mah-jong (Japanese rules) with the computer playing as
the other 3 opponents. I think that one of these was even network
capable so that 4 people could be at 4 different Macs playing
(even via modem). Anyone have anymore info about these or others?
I'm not interested in the solitaire versions like Shanghai, I'm referring
to the real "gin-rummy-like" game.
 

Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: nicwi@isy.liu.se (Niclas Wiberg)
Subject: Handicap Systems for small groups
Reply-To: nicwi@isy.liu.se
Organization: Linkoping University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 08:15:15 GMT

Hi,

I have two questions regarding handicap and rating:

How do you relate your rating on different board sizes?
We play on 19x19, 13x13 and 9x9 boards. Due to time constraints,
we usually play on the smaller boards.

How do you update your rating? We currently update our
rating after three consecutive won or lost games (regardless
of the opponent). Instead we would prefer to update after each game.

Maybe you could use a fine scale for the rating, and obtain the
handicap based on the difference in rating, but using different
formulas for different sizes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Niclas Wiberg                         nicwi@isy.liu.se
Dept. of EE    Linkoping University   Sweden

Xref: sparky rec.games.go:1571 rec.games.chess:6140