From: jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Jagielski)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Death of a Maia
Date: 7 Jan 93 12:34:14 GMT
Reply-To: jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Jagielski)
Organization: NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

>In article <1434@blue.cis.pitt.edu> pjhst10+@pitt.edu (Peter   J Hill) writes:
>>Gandalf does die, but is reborn.  I think that this is more a reflection
>>on what the Maia are.  The idea that they are a type of spirit that is
>>given a physical body holds up well here.  The body dies, but the spirit
>>still exists.  That is why Gandalf was able to retain all of his knowledge.
>>I would guess that they would be sent to the void to wait to see in
>>they rate a new body.

>But, from my reading, Sauron also died when Numenor went under.  And
>he managed to come back (though, admittedly, with a less capable
>physical form that was unable to look pleasant or, presumably, to
>change shape).  I can't imagine that he "rated a new body," at least
>not according to standards that might be set out by Eru or Mandos
>(who I presume are the ones to decide such a matter, though Manwe
>might get a vote as well).

>So, while I agree that either Eru or a Vala explicitly sent
>Gandalf back, there must be some other wat of getting back as
>well.  Otherwise, how would Sauron had made it?

Gandalf (And all the Istari) are a special case. They did not come to
Middle Earth on their own. Rather, they were sent. Thus, if they died
(i.e. their early forms were destroyed) then they returned to the West.
Recall that even when Saruman was destroyed, the "cloud" looked towards
the West but was "blown off" :) ... I assume that meant that he was not
allowed to return.

It appears that it's in the power of all Vala and Maia to take early
forms (man or elf)... This is stated in the Silm. When doing so, they
are not "reduced" in any way, since this appearance in just a show. I would
guess that doing so takes some effort however and that one's appearence
is greatly influenced by one's temperament (it's that reason why Sauron
could not achieve a noble appearence after his 1st fall since this nobility
was lacking in himself).

It also looks as if Vala and Maia have the ability, if they chose, to have
their earthly forms be more "substantial" as it were. But the most drastic
incarnations were those imposed on the Istari. They would be subject to
_all_ the weaknesses of the flesh... Thus they could get sleepy, forgetful
etc... It was this that "reduced" their "magic" powers (as well as an order
never to use them); they could not perform at their full power being
"totally" earthly.

When Gandalf was "reborn", he returned in a less earthly form. Thus, he
was able to use more of his full Maia potential (though it looks like he
was still limited...). It's alluded to that Gandalf in true Maia form is
as powerful as Sauron (observe that when reborn as Gandalf the White, he
states that he is "more powerful and terrible than anything on Middle
Earth except maybe Sauron" (paraphrased). This is also mentioned in Lost
Tales.
-- 
    Jim Jagielski               | "It is not I who am crazy...
    jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov   |  it is I who am MAD!"
    NASA/GSFC, Code 734.4       |
    Greenbelt, MD 20771         |            - Ren