From: newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celts-Christianity-Catholicism
Date: 12 Oct 92 08:01:12 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

downey@enh.nist.gov writes:

>Well, if you are referring to the "Celtic Church" before the coming
>of Christianity, I say it definitely existed - What about the
>Druids?  If I have misunderstood and you are talking about
>the "Celtic Church" after the introduction of Christianity, then
>I would say it was a "different" kind - a sort of mingling of
>the old and the new - pagan + Christianity.  This is termed

  The message by Maloney does a good job of summing up the practices
  and political webs involved in early Celtic Christianity.  Here's
  a few more notes from "The Celtic Revolution" by P.B.Ellis:

  "The term 'Celtic Church' is not a strictly accurate one because the early
  Christians churches among the Celtic peoples, in most essentials, were
  part of the Roman Catholic Church.  Neither was the Celtic CHurch an
  identifiable organization with a central leadership.  Nonetheless,
  during the early Christian period, for a period of 150 years, the
  insular Celts of the British Isles were cut off from strict Roman
  influence... the Celts clung to the old computations and freely
  mixed many pre-Christian traditions and social concepts into their
  Christianity, thus developing as a distinct entity within the wider
  Christian movement.

  It was a singular cultural entity, delineated by its practices, social
  concepts and art forms.  These individualistic practices, the
  observances and customs, its asceticism, monastic extremism, its
  attitude to social order, views on land tenure, lack of hereditary
  rights, and so forth, brought it into an early conflict with Rome.
  Absorption was inevitable because of its very individualism, lack of
  cohesion and natural anarchism.  [Sure sounds like the eternal Celtic
  predicament, doesn't it?]  Nevertheless, it was not until the 12th 
  century that one could say that the majority of Celts accepted
  Roman orthodoxy."

>was a transition period.  As to the universality of Christianity,
>certainly it has basic mores, however, as it has spread, it has
>been adapted and integrated into the customs of the people who
>adopted it.  Just note all the different sects and denominations.

  This is obviously true, and makes perfect sense.  Look at Christian
  practice around the world, and see how it takes the flavor and hue
  of the society which it is taken into.

>>Mr.Marquie describes himself as a "Wiccan", which he seems to
>>think for some reason has something to do with the
>>pre-Christian religion of Ireland. Furthermore, he is under the
>>impression that this religion was ended involuntarily by means

  Yes, Wicca has no more to do with Victorian antiquarians than it does
  ancient Ireland.  Wiccans don't tend to be very informed about history,
  anthropology or comparative religion, because it would highlight the
  dubious connections between actual ancient practices and what people
  like Gardner claimed were survivals of wiccan practice.  Even the
  etymology of the term is erroneous.

>extreme.  I merely pointed out that in terms of Brehon laws,
>women had certain rights that they don't have in present-day
>Ireland.  I don't remember anyone holding up the "Celtic Church"

  In some ways this is true, but it's hard to take facets from a
  completely different social context and compare them with another
  context.  Women (and I'm not even sure if this applied to all women
  or only those of the free or ariosticratic classes) had the right
  to divorce, since it was just another social contract like any other.
  And they had the right to keep their share of property.

  But I think it's hard to compare rights and laws one-to-one, because
  laws and practices only work, and make sense, in a particular social
  context.  You couldn't revive some number of these laws and expect them
  to mean the same thing, or work the same way, without trying to
  reestablish the entire social context, which is impossible.

-- mn