From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: Happy end for the ESTONIAN question (Was: Est
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 11:18:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.182203.18540@husc3.harvard.edu>, verbit@birkhoff.
harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

> In article <1992Dec15.114956.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi 
writes:
>>In article <12049@kesson.ed.ac.uk>, alexei@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Alexei Moiseyev) 
>>writes:
> 
>>> As I understand the game there are two well defined camps here.  One
>>> is democratic and the other nationalist.
> 
>>I can't see this kind of demarcation line. But: de gustibus non
>>disputandum: if you want to call me anti-democratic nationalist, you are
>>free to do so. But do not be surprised when somebody finds it's 
>>difficult to understand your opinions.
> 
> 	I have to disagree with honourable Tapani: he never
> 	lived in xCommunist countries to see this distinction. For
> 	me and Alexei it is clear. The situaion in any such country
> 	(be it Armenia, Tadjikistan, Croatia, Serbia or Ukraine,
> 	to say nothing about Russia and Baltics) is exactly
> 	as Alexei described. You have to live there to
> 	feel it.



Hmmm. I HAVE lived in some "Communist" countries like Chekhoslovakia
and I have worked in Estonia once. I studied once in Yugoslavia
(Dubrovnik in Croatia). I had an Eastern European "socialization".

Still, I find it a poor argument saying that you can't understand 
my arguments because you have not lived in the same country as
I have.

Therefore, I have no reasons to change my views in this respect.



>>(5) The goal of democratic politics in Estonia should be the following:
>>    (a) Every individual should receive
>>        a citizenship of the state that he/she wishes.
>>    (b) This procedure should be made as smooth as possible.
> 
> 
> 	This is a very important point I agrree with Tapani on.


Good.


> 	At least, for elderly and handicapped persons there
> 	should not be citizenship requirements. 



Even the Estonian right wing government agrees with us in this respect.


>       Estonian politicians,
> 	pursuing their nationalistic views, appear to be even
> 	less humane than Russian "pamyat'"-like nationalists.



Sorry, empty words without any information. Who is doing what to whom?

 

>>(6) Still, it is up to Estonians to decide, which condititions
>>    they set for those that want to be naturalized (This is accepted
>>    by the Russian government). The Estonians seem to want to protect
>>    the culture of their own - and therefore they have legally set
>>    up the language requirement.
> 
> 	Surely it is legal, but is it humane? 


Look above # (5), what is humane according to my opinion (and according
to the Estonian centrist opposition, I think).


>       That non-citizens
> 	will be more easily discriminated by militant nationalists
> 	(like in Germany) there is no doubt. 


I think there is some doubt - elaborate! 


I would not discuss Germany
in this occasion (the country I thoroughly know). I studied there
in Gross-Frankfurt (Mainz am Rhein), where a third of the population
consists of non-citizens, Auslaender. I think (Western) Germany
did have a multinational culture, until 1991, when the nazi minority
started their dirty game.



>        The question is,
> 	do Estonian powers share their goals with militant
> 	nationalists? 



WHO is a militant nationalist in Estonia? What does he/she do?


>       I believe so, but I have no factual
> 	evidence. 


I clearly see that you do not have any factual evidence.


>       If so, by restricting citizenship 



The citizenship is not restricted in Estonia. On the contrary,
the non-citizens will be easily naturalized.


>       they free
> 	their hands to discriminate peole who are not ethnically
> 	clean; 



Empty accusations. I see that you fear such a scenario. But do not
mix up your prejudices and reality! I have never heard the words
"not ethnically clean" in Estonia.


>       if not, they unconsciously free the hands of
> 	neo-Nazi (who will quite possibly devour them after
> 	they will feel free to do it). 



Facts: when the Europe suffers from neo-nazis and xenophobia,
Estonia is surprisingly clean from such phenomena. At least,
still is. I am deeply pessimistic in this respect: there
will be some skinhead activism in Estonia (as in many surrounding
countries, like Finland :-(


>        What happens is the
> 	nationalistic revolution, the same that takes place
> 	in Georgia, Serbia, Chechnya, Croatia etc, but on 
> 	the smaller scale. 



The situation is totally different in Estonia (which has no
record of ethnic violence as a mass phenomenon. The civil war
can only be imported in Estonia. Who might be apt to do such
a thing? What do you think?


> Hope it will never get the 
> 	Georgian's range.
 

If the Chauvinist Russian politicians want a conflict with
Estonians, it's relatively easy to them do organize a skirmish.
The excuses are fabricated every day. Fortunately, the chauvinists
are in opposition at this very moment.
  
I stick to my opinion below:


>>If Estonia is left alone (read: The Chauvinist Russia - which is still
>>in opposition - does not intrude the Estonian politics) and
>>the civil war is not imported in Estonia, the Estonian question will
>>be solved in two-three years and Estonia would have, say, a population,
>>where 60 % are Estonian speaking Estonian citizens, 20% are Russian
>>speaking Estonian citizens and 20% citizens of Russia and other CIS
>>states (of free decision). Every one could vote in the democratic
>>parliamentary elections of their countries and every one could
>>vote in Estonian local elections.
> 
> 	I am not sure so. 


I am not sure, either. I am afraid that the percentages might differ
somewhat from my "prophecy". But do you think that anybody will be
"disenfranchised" in Estonia for ever, as some ignorants tend to think?


>       It is true that if Yugoslavia
> 	was left without intervention from Council of
> 	Europe 


I think that you are referring to the European Community here.
But I would not like to discuss the Yugoslavian affairs here.
For me it's enough to state that there are two ways to solve
the national question: the Finnish way and the Yugoslavian way.



(whom you tend to value so high), Germany
> 	who tried to recognize its dissolution even before
> 	CoE (and long before the dissolution was finished),
> 	there could be less mutual violence there. 
> 	Surely also if Croatian facsistic diaspora was staying
> 	aside there were almost none. The potential
> 	for a violence always was there, regardless
> 	of what outsiders do.
> 
> 	The same goes for Baltics (and Russia too). 


Sorry, I can't see the possibility of civil war in Estonia that
would be something other than an imported one.


> 	Estonians were never as rabidly nationalistic as 
> 	their diaspora. 


"Rabidly nationalists" are empty words again. Who thinks
and does what?

The Estonian diaspora was caused by the occupation of SU.



>       If there was a force to keep 
> 	emigres out of the country the nationalism
> 	would never gain momentum. 


If you refer to Estonia, I think that you are poorly informed
in this respect. The emigrees (which are Estonian citizens in
exile) did not even vote very actively in previous elections.
I posted the figures before, but if I remember right, only
8 000 Estonian citizens voted abroad. Even less have returned
in Estonia. Some of them are right wingers, some left wingers,
as I have noticed.



>       If CoE would not encourage
> 	nationalists in everything they are doing,
> 	the situation could be relatively stable.



You might not be aware that the Council of Europe (and especially
the German conservatives) are smoothly persuading Estonians
to compromise in citizenship question.


> 	Now, as there are lots of outsiders (including
> 	Russian "patriots") to keep their noses in
> 	what happens in Estonia the situation is 
> 	highly unstable. 


Here we agree. The threats come from Russia weekly: Alksnis,
Zhirinovsky (who is a madman, but so was Hitler), Nevzorov,
Rutskoi...


>       Actually, Russians who
> 	live in Estonia will not necessarily suffer
> 	from nationalism (as Chechen Russians and
> 	and Georgian Russians do not muchly suffer),
> 	but the nationalism itself is always 
> 	abominable.


That depends on your definition on nationalism. 

But I agree with you that Russians who live in Estonia
do not suffer from "nationalist attacks".



> 	Partially I tend to agree that if there
> 	were no intrusion from outside, the situation
> 	were never dangerous. 


If you refer to Estonia, here we agree.


>        Nevertheless, I tend
> 	to evaluate the efforts of CoE and diaspora
> 	as roughly equivalent to ones from
> 	Russian nationalists.


Elaborate. No information given. I am inclined to think that you
have not the slightest idea what is happening in the Council of
Europe and that you can't make a distinction between the Council of
Europe and the European Community.

 
Too many empty accusations


thinks
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum


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