HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 07:58:37 GMT

In <1992Jul22.233830.6005@newsroom.utas.edu.au> u907736@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Edmund Chia) writes:

>> : d) What is the Islamic law's attitude on female circumcision ?
>> : 
>> 
>> Islam does not require circumcision as a condition
>> to be a Muslim. Only the above statement. Circumcison is practised for 
>> health reasons. This practice is carried over from Judaism. My daughter was
>> circumcised. At first I was worried after reading all the horror stories but
>> when I take a closer look it is nothing more that the remover an outer skin
>> of something there.
>> 	My wife is also circumcised. You know how I feel.
>--
>> Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
>> Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
>> Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
>> Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet
>> 

>There was an article in an Australian paper(The Age - I think), which claimed 
>that female circumcision was meant to deny sexual pleasure to the female And
>infer that this was to prevent adultery. I do not know enough about this to 
>comment but perhaps Othman could respond to this. I am curious.

Maybe this is the purpose of female circumcision in some cultures, but
Islam does not require female circumcision.  In fact, the subject of
female circumcision is not mentioned in the Qur'an (the holy book of
Islam.  In the hadith literature (the sayings and doings of Prophet
Muhammad), there is no mention of Prophet Muhammad recommending that female
circumcision be performed on any of his daughters or on any other
female.  Also, the great majority of Muslims do not practice female
circumcision - clitodirectomy is a pre-Islamic local custom found in
Sudan, Egypt and Yemen.  Islam, in fact, condemns mutilation, and
therefore it clearly condemns clitodirectomy.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

***********************************************************
	One can either take the time
	to learn about the Islamic faith,
	or one can defer to the wisdom of
	broadcast television and hollywood
	and fail to understand it, completely.

				     Gerard Vignes
	[quoted with permission]
***********************************************************
From: s8923098@macnab.mqcs.mq.oz.au (Josef WIDJAJA)
Subject: Re: Sidney Opera : request for information
Keywords: Sidney opera ticket reservation
Organization: Macquarie University, School of Mathematics, Physics, Computing and Electronics
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:57:56 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.172739.20664@fzi.de> dockhorn@fzi.de writes:
|Hi there !
|A friend of mine is going to visit australia in august and september -
|I'd like to order him two tickets for the Sidney opera
|(I don't know whether it's called the 'opera' - I mean this
|nice building looking like a giant shell) as a gift;
|he just finished his studies and is going to leave.
|
|I'd like to know whether anybody could send me a 'timetable'
|of the events taking place in the Sidney opera and perhaps an
|address where I could order the tickets.
|
|Any help would be appreciated,
|
|		Patsch

It's called the Sydney Opera House (note the spelling).
I'm not an opera buff (I prefer Dire Straits), but 
I will try my best to get hold of the timetable and email you
when I'm successsful.


 
hold of the timetable.
--
 _________Josef Widjaja____________  
|  s8923098@mackay.mpce.mq.edu.au  |
|  Macquarie University, Australia | 
|__________________________________| 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: ystan@fawlty10.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr YS Tan)
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince: New Developments 
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 10:48:09 GMT

kaic@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan) writes:

>eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:

>	[deleted - read original]
>>
>>The above do not tell the WHOLE STORY/TRUTH. What do you expect from Chinese
>>Journalists/editors.
>								      ^^^^^^
>					  	  Hmm, a hint of racial bias? 

>	An 'educated' person like you should not be make such remarks. By
>doing so you lose what little support you might have had from fellow Malaysians
>who happen to be of Chinese descent. I am of Chinese descent but am proud to
>be 'Malaysian'; A true 'Malaysian' society isn't separated into Chinese, 
>Malay, Indian or sub-societies of other races.

	From Encik Othman's posting, I would think he's a Singaporean ...

>	To all others who were appalled by Encik Othman's abusive stance - I
>think his persistence (IMHO) is a case of wounded pride. Having been shown
>up, people with such an affliction will doggedly try to 'save face'. I know
>because I was once young and proud (Thank heavens - I have since mended my
>silliness)!

>	Never be too proud too admit that you have erred, Encik Othman. 
>And for goodness sake, stop being so abusive when replying - argue cogently
>with the facts, and don't let emotions/religion cloud your thinking. You are
>giving the rest of the world a bad impression of Malaysians!!!
			      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Or rather, of Singaporeans, in particular Nanyang Technological University.

>>--
>>Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
>>Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
>>Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
>>Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet
> 
>Regards,
>DC
From: jemalil@emu.insted.unimelb.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: Auto Importation into Australia
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:44:43 GMT

In article <l6mf07INNrvk@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, reno@darlo.Eng.Sun.COM (Reno Marioni) writes:
> Hello,
> I will be a new migrant to Australia this year (I used to live
> there for quite some time . I'm a "seppo"-yank with permanent residency).  
> Does anyone have any experiences bringing a vehicle from the US 
> to Australia?
> 
> I got a pamphlet from the consulate but there is limited information.
> I do know that the car you import must be owned by the person
> importing the car for at least 3 months and be fitted with
> Australian compliance licence plates.
> 
> My questions are :
> 
> 1) Does the car have to be converted to Right Hand Drive?

I heard of a guy who owned a late 60's/early 70's mustang which was left hand
drive.  Every year he would go up to the Nothern Teritory for a few weeks so
that he could officially be a resident of NT.  You see the NT allows vehicles
to remain left hand drive.  This was a few years ago so I don't know if this is
still the case.
>    
> 2) Any clues as to whom I call regarding actual shipping and
>    estimated costs, etc?
> 
> 3) Who do I call about these compliance plates.
> 
> 4) Do I have to pay a HUGE tariff?
> 
> I get the feeling either the consulate doesn't know the details or
> they would rather people not to import vehicles into Oz. 
> 
> I would like to import a huge Septic Tank vehicle or Yank Tank
> like an old Thunderbird or classic convertible.  The bigger the
> better (just mocking the gool ole American Image we have in Oz)
> 
Bring me one too! Bring me one too!   Any old Cougor/Mustang/Thunderbird will
do. Pleeeeeeease bring me one too!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Any help or personal experiences like "don't do it-you're mad"
> are quite welcome.

Not a bad idea as long as the costs don't get to high. Old Yank Tanks sell for
quite a bit here if they're  in good condition.
> 
> cheers,
> Reno

Adil Jemali                   email - jemalil@emu.insted.unimelb.edu.au
University Of Melbourne
Victoria, Australia
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: sgraym02@cc.curtin.edu.au
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince: New Developments
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 00:37:46 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.053955.13041@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
> In article <27JUL199208375395@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu> ytay@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (AUS:TAY,YIAN) writes:

> : 
> : Since you are so smart, why don't you tell us the truth?? But why should
> : I believe that what you said is the whole story/truth?  You could jolly 
> : well fabricate your story to your advantage too....
> : 
> Same to you.
 

	It is truly a joy to behold the cut and thrust of this informed, witty
	and reserved debate on current affairs in our region.

_________________________________________
					|
	Mark Gray 			|	
	sgraym02@cc.curtin.edu.au	|	
					|
	(I never read sig's anyway)	|
					|
-----------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: c9110440@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Seni seviyorum, Esra Karaman!!!)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 02:10:02 GMT

> You are absolutely right. The children come at their own free will. Not
> kidnapped. They do not care about Australian Law. What they care for is their
> father.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I couldn't let this one slip.

of course the children said: "Dady, we don't like Australian Law, can you take
us to Malaysia with you?"

I had no idea that ~9 year old kids have such an understanding of the legal
system.

Of course I could be wrong...

Fal.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: -=[ Curtin University ]=-  Perth, Australia.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 09:13:50 GMT

>In article <thos.711961428@suite.sw.oz.au> thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) writes:

> And yes, I can prove that the father kidnapped the children - he did
> not have permission to take them out of Australia, and they are now
> in Malaysia. As they are not of an age to make such decisions themselves
> (ie. their mother is their legal guardian) he must have kidnapped them.

I have told our .sg frient this, but he refuses to understand.

> My brain is certainly not cluttered with biased views about Islam,
> but yours certainly seems to be cluttered with something. My comments
> were based on assumptions of citizenship and nationality. Nothing more.
> Yet you seem to see an attack on Islam. You'd be better off seeing a
> doctor.

Correct assumptions at that!

> Ah, but what if they're Australian citizens, dwelling in Australia?
> What sort of common sense or justice are _you_ applying, that the
> children can then be taken from the mother?

Malaysian justice and law is being applied to where it has no jurisdiction.

> I'm taking this to mean that you completely dismiss any validity
> to the children having Australian citizenship. In which case, I don't 
> think we even have common ground to discuss this matter.

I have explained that the laws pertaining to the children's citizenship
are Australian, and explained how they are NOT Malaysian citizens.

> Huh? Are you getting personal here? Maybe you're an ignorant jackass with
> the manners of a baboon, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the
> doubt. Which apparently, you're not willing to extend to others (unless,
> perhaps, they're Islamic).

Don't worry.  According to our jackass friend, I am a pig because he has
never eaten pork!

> Obviously your position is based on the children being Malaysian citizens,
> and not Australian. Mine is based on the reverse. Unless one of us is 
> willing to change their base line we have nothing further to discuss.

[clap, cheer, yay]

Maybe the debating point is the citizenship of the children and NOT whether
we are Islamic destroyers.

Rod
-- 
|            . . .   . . . . .        "Dear God.  We paid for all this stuff|
|        +  +  +     +  +  +  +  +        ourselves, so thanks for nothing."|
|    *   *   *       *   *   *   *   *                                      |
|R    o    d         S    w    i    f    t      -- Bart Simpson saying grace|
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Internet: RSwiftRW@cc.curtin.edu.au               School of Social Sciences|
|PSImail : psi%050529452300070::RSwiftRW                   Curtin University|
|Bitnet  : RSwiftRW%cc.curtin.edu.au@cunyvm.bitnet             GPO Box U1987|
|UUCP    : uunet!munnari.oz!cc.curtin.edu.au!RSwiftRW        Perth  WA  6000|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: kcj@vulcan.anu.edu.au (Kate Juliff)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Australian National University, Canberra, Australia
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 00:18:46 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.155607.26285@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
>In article <1992Jul25.174053.1@cc.curtin.edu.au> rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift) writes:
>
>: 
>: Please shut up.  You are making an absolute fool of yourself in a multinational
>I am tired arguing with you even in written medium. Your last phrase sums it
>all.
>
It is a pity you are unable to answer Rod's points. I realise that
it is difficult for you, as Rod is correct. The  kidnapped
children are Australian citizens. You may not like this fact, but it
is a fact nonetheless. If the prince has taken the children
out of the country, as appears almost certain, he has broken 
Australian laws. He has certainly defied an Australian court order
by not returning them to their custodial parents.

It is well accepted that people are obliged to obey the laws of the
country they are in, and not the laws of some other country. 

The prince has also shown no regard for his children's emotional well-being.
The mother, on the other hand, encouraged access and went through
the proper processes. It seems that the prince was happy to
take up the rights granted to him by an Australian court, but
is not prepared to act in good faith.

-- 
Kate Juliff                           | kcj@matilda.vut.edu.au
Victoria University                   |
P.O. BOX 14428,                       |
MELBOURNE MAIL CENTRE, AUSTRALIA 3000 |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 10:31:54 GMT

I am still here. Why don't you swear some more. Let us see who are the
fools.

The Australian family court agreed that it was not a kidnap case, so it
slapped warrent for arrest for contempt of court to Raja Baharin in absentia.
 Usually contempt of court is only for people who are at court, and had been
given warnings first. What a strange sense of justice.

Raja Baharin was in Indonesia. He could have used boats, for a rich prince,
he should have used rented planes. He is reported to be an architect and one
of the nephews of Sultan of Trengganu, not known to be rich. Sultan of Johor
and Pahang are more aggressive and richer. He must be working for JKR, and I
know how much he is paid, not much.

Malaysian chief of police declared that the children would not be extradited
because they are Malaysian citizens.

My source is the NEW Staits Times, Singapore. For another point of view refer
to Edward Chia.

 

--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Xref: sparky soc.culture.australian:3739 soc.culture.asean:5114
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
Subject: ANTI Chinese statement? (was: Loving Malaysian Prince:New Developments )
From: chuah@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (DanC)
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:03:22 +1200
Organization: Electronic and Electrical Engineering Department, University of Canterbury, New Zealand.

In article <1992Jul27.113752.1272@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:

Cheers for the news.

>The above do not tell the WHOLE STORY/TRUTH. What do you expect from Chinese
>Journalists/editors.

I resent this statement though.  Are you saying that the Chinese are poor
journalist/editors?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Chuah, BE (Elec)    | "One Country,  | Supporting the Malaysian 
Te Whare Wananga O Waitaha | One People." - | Hockey team for gold in 
Aotearoa.                  | Maori proverb. | Barcelona.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pencangkul Matahari" email: chuah@elec.canterbury.ac.nz


Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
From: AS.MJP@forsythe.stanford.edu (Mike Peters)
Subject: Yothu Yindi: Video Available?
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: net
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:52:35 GMT


Subject line says it all: Is anyone aware of a video that the
Australian aboriginal musical group, Yothu Yindi, may have produced?

Is it available in the U.S? Australia?

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.




Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
From: dockhorn@fzi.de (Patrick Dockhorn)
Subject: Sidney Opera : request for information
Keywords: Sidney opera ticket reservation
Reply-To: dockhorn@fzi.de
Organization: Forschungszentrum Informatik (FZI), Karlsruhe, Germany
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:27:39 GMT

Hi there !
A friend of mine is going to visit australia in august and september -
I'd like to order him two tickets for the Sidney opera
(I don't know whether it's called the 'opera' - I mean this
nice building looking like a giant shell) as a gift;
he just finished his studies and is going to leave.

I'd like to know whether anybody could send me a 'timetable'
of the events taking place in the Sidney opera and perhaps an
address where I could order the tickets.

Any help would be appreciated,

		Patsch

-- 
Patrick Dockhorn	       Forschungszentrum Informatik, Karlsruhe/Germany.
INTERNET: dockhorn@fzi.de      There are two rules for success in life:
BITNET  : ukew@dkauni2.bitnet  Rule 1:  Don't tell people everything you know.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
From: kcj@vulcan.anu.edu.au (Kate Juliff)
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince: New Developments
Organization: Australian National University, Canberra, Australia
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 00:28:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.113428.14205@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>In <1992Jul29.235314.27485@newshost.anu.edu.au> rxo868@huxley.anu.edu.au (Remo Ostini) writes:
>
>>There are still a few people posting articles saying that the father stole
>>the children from Australia and in so doing, broke the law.  He certainly
>>broke the law but when he took the children he took them back.  They were
>>originally taken from their home by the mother on the pretext of visiting a
>>sick relative.
>
[stuff deleted]

>Remo, thanks for your posting!
>
>Now, why are most people here so silent on this?  
>
>Why are so many Aussies so eager to heap abuse on the Malaysian prince, 
>but when we find out that the Australian woman is the original culprit, 
>we are so silent?  
>
>Is this evidence of Australian racism / ethnocentrism? 
>
>Does this show our prejudice against other cultures? 

I think you are missing the point here. The issue is that the children
are Australian, they speak only English. They have grown up in
Australia. No doubt there is acrimony between the parents, and
guilt on both sides in regard to the marriage. He took a second wife, she
left and so on. But the prince has flouted Australian law. That is the case
and it is no use complaining about what Mrs Gillespi did. The
prince was represented in the Family Court of Australia and has
acted in contempt of it. He left Australia illegally. I note that
the PM of Malaysia is reported as saying he will look into "if"
Mrs Gillespi can get a visa into Malaysia.

The issues are

-the well-being of Australian citizens
-the right of the Australian people to have their laws respected.

It is not delving into people's past marital problems.


>
> Fred Rice
> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   
>
>==================================================================
>=   A poor man said to a rich one:				 =
>=     `All my money goes on food.'				 = 
>=     `Now that's your trouble,' said the rich man. `I only 	 =
>=   spend five per cent of _my_ money on food.'			 = 
>=                                        			 =
>=                -- Idries Shah, _The Magic Monastery_		 =
>==================================================================


-- 
Kate Juliff                           | kcj@matilda.vut.edu.au
Victoria University                   |
P.O. BOX 14428,                       |
MELBOURNE MAIL CENTRE, AUSTRALIA 3000 |
From: harrity@sumax.seattleu.edu (Elan Morin Tedronai)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince: New Developments
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:31:24 GMT
Organization: Seattle University, Seattle WA

In article <Bs9L6u.9Es@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> 
   cbs@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Chris Syed) writes:
>
>  Maybe i'm getting flame-conscious, but on rereading my post i realized
>  that it might seem unfriendly toward the good ole us of hay... that
>   wasn't my intention... i menat that since we _do_ have agreements,
>  which recognize eachothers' laws, we can sometimes deal with such
>  situations... but the question remains, how do you work out treaties
>   with countries that _dont_ share your legal views? sigh :-)
>  there... 

Nevertheless, Chris, it would seem to me that United States bounty
hunters, etc., have no business whoasoever entering Canada and bringing
somebody out, without first having gone through the proper channels.

Sharing the same continent (and the undefended status of the Border),
will make it easy and perhaps tempting indeed for residents of one
country to flee to the other in cases as the aforementioned.  But, 
seat-of-the-pants maneuvers by agents of one country that completely 
bypass the proper authorities of the other country, will only lead
to resentment.  

Unless he were accompanied by an American agent, I'd be one of the first
to scream bloody murder if a Canadian policeman were to try to extradite
someone to Canada from the US, even were such person a Canadian national. 
The point is, the policeman would no longer *be* in Canada -- his
authority, however weighty it is in Canada, stops at the border. 

--
Daniel John Kelly-Harrity ---------| |--------- "Sooner spit in a 
Seattle University ----------------| |---------  Wolf's Eye,
Seattle, Washington ---------------| |---------  than cross an
USA 98122 -------------------------| |---------  Aes Sedai."

          "If it's not Scottish, It's *crap*!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
From: de@cray.com (Duane Eitzen)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 23 Jul 92 11:01:46 CDT

In article <2792@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> joseph@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Joseph D'Cruz) writes:
>In <1992Jul22.233830.6005@newsroom.utas.edu.au> u907736@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Edmund Chia) writes:
>}In article <1992Jul22.045043.14744@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
>} In article <2774@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> stong@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Simon Tong) writes:
>} : Two Australian citizens, both aged under 10, have been kidnapped
>} : by their father, who happens to be a Malaysian Prince.  The natural
>} : parents are divorced and the mother has sole custody.  The Australian 
>} 
>} Who gave the custody? Malaysia or Australian government?
>	The Aust courts awarded custody to the mother.  Unfortunately she gave
>up Islam, and so the Islamic Courts in Malaysia recently awarded custody to
>the father.  Therefore the mother has custody in Australia and the father in
>Malaysia.  However, what the father did, by taking the children away while on
>a visit, amounts to kidnapping, which is a criminal offence irrespective of
>his rights under Malaysian law.. Therefore the Aust Govt could well apply for
>his extradition on that criminal charge.  Should be interesting.

An extradition seems rather unlikely if the Malaysians think the father
has custody. 

Does this story remind anyone of the movie "Not without my daughter"?
This is the movie where an American mother frees (or kidnappes or
whatever) her daughter from the father in Iran. 

Duane.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian