Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:18:09 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      "Traditional"
X-To:         christia%asuacad.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU

Subject: "Traditional"

Dan Graham------------------------------------------------------------->
The idea of two parents for children is a nice one, but most of history has
shown that it is irrelevant to people becoming hard working, conscientious
members of their society.  There is no tradition of two parent families.
In fact, most of history has consisted of two parents, but then one either
going off to war, or ignoring the children completely.  North America was
populated by natives who lived in tribes, or highly extended families.
Evidence shows that this arrangement is actually better for the development
of social skills than the closed family.
MAKS> I don't think Dan is trying to say this, but I almost read:
             1. God said it is not good for man to be alone.
             2. God makes a helpmeet, woman for man.
             3. For this reason a man will leave father and mother...
             4. The "traditional" in God's eyes is laid out.
      This paragraph says, "Nah, you don't need that. It's a bunch of
      bunk." I've posted before about what I see as a danger of saying
      "God, that's a lie."

      Please, I don't think I'm saying this very good, and I don't mean
      to sound critical, but that God's way is best.

      Yes, we have a lot of "traditional families" that are disfunctional
      from this or that. Again, compare them to what God had desired,
      not what we see, what others call "normal".

      IMHO, these other alternatives make out IN SPITE OF, not BECAUSE
      OF their situation.

Dan Graham------------------------------------------------------------->
The love of God and His ways is a strictly individual item.  Only the born
again will teach their children to do so, the others, they will and should
do as they please.
MAKS> Amen. This is why I didn't think that you were trying to say "God
      is wrong." Even more so in the paragraphs that followed.

Dan Graham------------------------------------------------------------->
All of those wonderful, traditional families some idolize were not roses.
Hidden in many, perhaps most of them was and still is child abuse, wife
beating, hatred of spouses and children, cheating on taxes, engendered
selfishness, cheating on spouses and so many other ills that it'd exceed
the list limits to mention them all.
MAKS> Yes, but there are many disfunctional non traditional families
      that also have a lot of problems. Let's agree that these are not
      "traditional" in God's eyes. They don't understand the "covenant"
      of marriage or being good stewards of God's gifts, children.

Dan Graham------------------------------------------------------------->
I closely observe family structures.  I have had the opportunity to see
many hundreds, (God has blessed me with many friends.)  Most of those
families are, so to speak, traditional.  Most of them are dysfunctional.
Most of them are sick, sick, sick!!

If by "traditional" it is meant that a family follow Biblical guidelines,
then, as I said, that only applies to the born again, and is irrelevant to
most of society.   In a "traditional" family, the husband works, the wife
stays at home and is slavishly submissive to the lord of the house.  The
children are seen and not heard, their fun and or happiness is secondary to
the lord's convenience.   At dinner, the family assembles and the lord
dictates the agenda for the following day.  He dictates what is for dinner,
and where the family will go on vacation.  In a traditional family, the
wife will submit to sex whenever the lord wishes, whether she is desirous
or not.  If she is interested in lovemaking and the lord is tired, she can
forget her pleasure, for his comes first and always.
MAKS> This was what I was trying to get at. Define "traditional" as what
      God might define His idea of a family. You started, then changed
      traditional to something no one would like. This isn't
      "traditional", it is disfunctional. The husband doesn't understand
      his "covenant" with is wife, that the best he has is hers, and the
      best she has is his. He doesn't understand good stewardship of his
      children, and not to "provoke to anger" his children. My Linda is
      or was a sergeant in the Army. She knows how to speak her mind and
      the idea of "slavishly submissive" would only be a pipe dream to
      me. Many times I don't trust my own judgement, if she were this
      way, how would I learn? How would I grow?

Dan Graham------------------------------------------------------------->
You don't think those are the essential items in a traditional family, a
traditional American family, that is ... don't be silly.  Ask any member of
one of those traditional families and you'll get your eyes opened if the
person is being honest.

I am not against families, they are great.  Let us not forget, though,
that if God does not build the house, they labor in vain who build it.
Forget this family value junk in politics and see to your own family.
MAKS> Yes, God centered families are great. "Family value junk" might
      be a bit strong. I agree that to take care of our own families
      should come first. I don't know that we should support someone
      that says families are not important or indicates the state or
      an institution should be raising our kids, nor to I like the
      Democrats saying that abortions should be allowed for absolutely
      any reason.

      Again, I see that as a God says: "For Thou didst form my inward
      parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb... My frame was
      not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret... Thine eyes
      have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all
      written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there
      was not one of them." and Man says: "No God, that's a lie. I
      (or this woman) needs an abortion."

      Thanks for the opportunity to share.

Maks.
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