From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Prayer in Public Schools
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:25:45 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <1992Nov5.214752.6663@gboro.glassboro.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes:
>
>Richard Pitts wrote on prayer in schools
>> [...] the desire is for an organized voluntary period of prayer.  The idea
>> is that we believe that prayer is important and should be a recognized part
>> of national life.
>
>When criticised by Paul Harvey as blindly following Pat Robertson, Mr Pitts
>responded by saying that he'd never mentioned Pat Robertson, but rather
>only the name of Jesus, who Mr Pitts claims to serve.
>
>Very well then; please provide a reference to instructions from Jesus which
>support governmentally organised public prayers.  If you cannot provide any
>such reference from Jesus, explain why you believe that government-run public
>prayers are something Christians should support.
>
>Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu

Hi Darren,

I did not say nor to my knowledge does the movement want GOVERNMENT-RUN 
PUBLIC PRAYERS.  There is a difference - you take it to an extreme - the 
request if for a time period for prayer - NOT government-run public prayer.  
We don't want someone of a different persuasion lead our children in
pray - we recognize the plurality of religions in America.  If you have
read my post on this, I suggest that we have a place for each group, so
that they can have a leader of their choice and so not impose upon another.

Here are my scriptures - the are not all about public pray, but they
are about prayer - many instances of it.  My favorite is 

    Matthew 19:13 (NIV)   Then little children were brought to Jesus 
    for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the 
    disciples rebuked those who brought them. 

Jesus was obviously praying in public - people were bringing their
children to him.  Look who was rebuking them - his disciple - they
didn't understand.  Jesus points out in another place that the
purpose of pray is not to be seen by men, but we shouldn't hide 
either.  Pray is communication with God - not man.  We can do that
and some people believe it is VERY important to recognize this in
our institutions - and plurality of religions should be and is recognized.

You may want to note that the Former Soviet Union tried to push the
idea of God out of their system - now they are glad to get it.  Are
we going the other way?  

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts

---------begin long section on prayer----

There 300-350 references to prayer in the Bible (about 150 in the
NT) - these are recorded for us to see that people prayed.  It is not
a sin to know that someone prays - it is not wrong to pray in public,
but if one prays to be seen BY MEN, then they already have their 
reward - we are to pray to God and he will reward us.  Jesus is
record in many places as praying and some of them were note worthy.
   
   Mat 6:5   "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love
      to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen
      by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
   Mat 6:6   But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to
      your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in
      secret, will reward you.
   Mat 6:7   And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they
      think they will be heard because of their many words.
   Mat 6:8   Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before
      you ask him.

Again, Jesus prayed in public and prayers and the fact that people
prayed is recorded throughout the Bible.  This passage gets down to the
purpose of one praying.  Much less for all of these prayers to be 
recorded, someone had to hear them or the one that prayed had to latter
tell what they prayed.

Our light is to shine before me, but we aren't to seek our reward in
man, but from God.  The men are to see us and give God the glory for
the light we shine.

   Mat 5:14   "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be   
      hidden.
   Mat 5:15   Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead
      they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
   Mat 5:16   In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may
      see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Jesus was praying for children in a crowd.

    Matthew 19:13 (NIV)   Then little children were brought to Jesus 
    for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the 
    disciples rebuked those who brought them. 

Jesus was praying at his baptism.

    Luke 3:21 (NIV)   When all the people were being baptized, Jesus 
    was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 
    Luke 3:22 (NIV)   and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily 
    form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, 
    whom I love; with you I am well pleased." 

The rest of the verses give examples of people praying and where they
prayed and who was present.

A CROWD WAS THERE:
    Judges 16:27 (NIV)   Now the temple was crowded with men and 
    women; all the rulers of the Philistines were there, and on the 
    roof were about three thousand men and women watching Samson 
    perform. 
    Judges 16:28 (NIV)   Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O 
    Sovereign LORD, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just 
    once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the 
    Philistines for my two eyes." 

ALL THE ISRAELITES WERE THERE:
    1 Samuel 14:40 (NIV)   Saul then said to all the Israelites, 
    "You stand over there; I and Jonathan my son will stand over 
    here." "Do what seems best to you," the men replied. 
    1 Samuel 14:41 (NIV)   Then Saul prayed to the LORD, the God of 
    Israel, "Give me the right answer." And Jonathan and Saul were 
    taken by lot, and the men were cleared. 

THIS WAS IN FRONT OF THE CROWD WITH THE SACRIFICE TO BAAL:
    1 Kings 18:36 (NIV)   At the time of sacrifice, the prophet 
    Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "O LORD, God of Abraham, 
    Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in 
    Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things 
    at your command. 

A CROWD GATHERED AROUND:
    Ezra 10:1 (NIV)   While Ezra was praying and confessing, weeping 
    and throwing himself down before the house of God, a large crowd 
    of Israelites--men, women and children--gathered around him. 
    They too wept bitterly. 

NEHEMIAH PRAYED QUIETLY (I believe) IN FRONT OF THE KING:
    Nehemiah 2:4 (NIV)   The king said to me, "What is it you want?" 
    Then I prayed to the God of heaven, 
    Nehemiah 2:5 (NIV)   and I answered the king, "If it pleases the 
    king and if your servant has found favor in his sight, let him 
    send me to the city in Judah where my fathers are buried so that 
    I can rebuild it." 

WE PRAYED:
    Nehemiah 4:9 (NIV)   But we prayed to our God and posted a guard 
    day and night to meet this threat. 

ASAPH LEAD IN PRAY (implies a congretation):
    Nehemiah 11:17 (NIV)   Mattaniah son of Mica, the son of Zabdi, 
    the son of Asaph, the director who led in thanksgiving and 
    prayer; Bakbukiah, second among his associates; and Abda son of 
    Shammua, the son of Galal, the son of Jeduthun. 

THE PSALMS ARE FULL OF PRAYERS:
    Psalms 4:1 (NIV)   For the director of music. With stringed 
    instruments. A psalm of David. Answer me when I call to you, O 
    my righteous God. Give me relief from my distress; be merciful 
    to me and hear my prayer. 

DANIEL PRAYED IN THE OPEN WINDOW:
    Daniel 6:10 (NIV)   Now when Daniel learned that the decree had 
    been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the 
    windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down 
    on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he 
    had done before. 

A CROWD:
    Matthew 19:13 (NIV)   Then little children were brought to Jesus 
    for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the 
    disciples rebuked those who brought them. 

Jesus TOLD HIS DISCIPLES WHO WERE THERE TO PRAY:
    Matthew 26:41 (NIV)   "Watch and pray so that you will not fall 
    into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." 
    Matthew 26:42 (NIV)   He went away a second time and prayed, "My 
    Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away 
    unless I drink it, may your will be done." 

Jesus HINTED THAT HE PRAYED, FOR HE CAST THE DEMON OUT:
    Mark 9:29 (NIV)   He replied, "This kind can come out only by 
    prayer. " 

AGAIN THE PURPOSE OF PRAYER - NOT TO BE SEEN BY MEN:
    Mark 12:38 (NIV)   As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the 
    teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes 
    and be greeted in the marketplaces, 
    Mark 12:39 (NIV)   and have the most important seats in the 
    synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 
    Mark 12:40 (NIV)   They devour widows' houses and for a show 
    make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." 

Jesus ANNOUCNED HE WAS GOING TO PRAY:
    Mark 14:32 (NIV)   They went to a place called Gethsemane, and 
    Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." 

AT HIS BAPTISM:
    Luke 3:21 (NIV)   When all the people were being baptized, Jesus 
    was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 
    Luke 3:22 (NIV)   and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily 
    form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, 
    whom I love; with you I am well pleased." 

ODDLY IT SAYS JESUS WAS PRAYING IN PRIVATE - could it be other times
he was praying in public:
    Luke 9:18 (NIV)   Once when Jesus was praying in private and his 
    disciples were with him, he asked them, "Who do the crowds say I 
    am?" 

A GROUP WENT TO PRAY:
    Luke 9:28 (NIV)   About eight days after Jesus said this, he 
    took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain 
    to pray. 
    Luke 9:29 (NIV)   As he was praying, the appearance of his face 
    changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of 
    lightning. 

THE DISCIPLE KNEW WHEN JESUS PRAYED, FOR THEY APPROACHED HIM WHEN HE FINISHED:
    Luke 11:1 (NIV)   One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. 
    When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach 
    us to pray, just as John taught his disciples." 
    Luke 11:2 (NIV)   He said to them, "When you pray, say: 
    "'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. 

    Luke 18:1 (NIV)   Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to 
    show them that they should always pray and not give up. 

THEY PRAYED:
    Acts 1:14 (NIV)   They all joined together constantly in prayer, 
    along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his 
    brothers. 

THEY PRAYED:
    Acts 1:24 (NIV)   Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's 
    heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 

    Acts 3:1 (NIV)   One day Peter and John were going up to the 
    temple at the time of prayer--at three in the afternoon. 

THEY PRAYED:
    Acts 4:24 (NIV)   When they heard this, they raised their voices 
    together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you 
    made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in 
    them. 

Stephen PRAYED AT HIS PUBLIC STONING:
    Acts 7:59 (NIV)   While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, 
    "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 

THE CHURCH PRAYED:
    Acts 12:5 (NIV)   So Peter was kept in prison, but the church 
    was earnestly praying to God for him. 

MANY PRAYED:
    Acts 12:12 (NIV)   When this had dawned on him, he went to the 
    house of Mary the mother of John, also called Mark, where many 
    people had gathered and were praying. 

THEY FASTED AND PRAYED:
    Acts 13:3 (NIV)   So after they had fasted and prayed, they 
    placed their hands on them and sent them off. 

THEY SANG AND PRAYED:
    Acts 16:25 (NIV)   About midnight Paul and Silas were praying 
    and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening 
    to them. 

A PUBLIC PRAY AT PAUL'S DEPARTURE:
    Acts 20:36 (NIV)   When he had said this, he knelt down with all 
    of them and prayed. 

    Romans 12:12 (NIV)   Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, 
    faithful in prayer. 

PRAY ON ALL OCCASIONS:
    Ephesians 6:18 (NIV)   And pray in the Spirit on all occasions 
    with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be 
    alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. 

WE PRAY:
    Colossians 1:3 (NIV)   We always thank God, the Father of our 
    Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 

    Colossians 4:2 (NIV)   Devote yourselves to prayer, being 
    watchful and thankful. 

WE PRAY:
    1 Thessalonians 3:10 (NIV)   Night and day we pray most 
    earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking 
    in your faith. 

    1 Thessalonians 5:17 (NIV)   pray continually; 

    1 Timothy 2:1 (NIV)   I urge, then, first of all, that requests, 
    prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 
    1 Timothy 2:2 (NIV)   for kings and all those in authority, that 
    we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and 
    holiness. 
    1 Timothy 2:3 (NIV)   This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 

ALL MEN ARE TO PRAY:
    1 Timothy 2:8 (NIV)   I want men everywhere to lift up holy 
    hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. 

Jesus WAS KNOW TO BE A PRAYER - WITH LOUD CRIES AND TEARS:
    Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)   During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he 
    offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to 
    the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because 
    of his reverent submission. 

    1 Peter 4:7 (NIV)   The end of all things is near. Therefore be 
    clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. 
----------Fini

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Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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