From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Statistics, Threats, Sex Selection (was: Guilty of ... Thoughtcrime
X-To: LARRY MARGOLIS
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Followups-To: alt.abortion.inequity
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:06:00 GMT

Larry Margolis writes...
LM> I'm looking forward to seeing your numbers and sources, Will.

I didn't recall the source, but I believe that it was from a "pro life" group.
Does this invalidate the source?  Maybe, maybe not.  Remember what Mark Twain
said about statistics : "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are
statistics" (Can someone confirm whether this was actually from Mark Twain?
Thanks).


LM> > I was speaking from anger, but I never actually threatened her.
LM> >
LM> > She, however, threatened *me* three times.  Just *who* is the violent
LM> > person here?  Me, who dared to have *thoughts* of it, or her, who actually
LM> > *threatened* me three times?  You decide.

LM> Saying "I'll kill you if you tell anyone about this" is not, generally
LM> speaking, a serious threat.

Actually, she said (on the first time that she made the threat) : "(If you tell,
then) You're a dead man".

Whether it was serious or not, it definitely *sounded* pretty serious.  Her tone
of voice was also *very* serious, and more deadly threatening than any mere
*emotion* of mine.  Indeed, if there is a "walking time bomb" here, it is hardly
me.  (Granted, I don't think of *her* in that fashion, either, but I was quite
hurt and afraid that she threatened me.  Yes, it *is* possible for a male to
feel fear at a threat, regardless of the gender of the person making the threat.
It also hurts when the person is someone you love, and presumably loves you as
well).


LM> (Is it safe to assume that she did *not* kill you?  :-)

Larry, no offense meant, but this *would* be funny, were it not for the
controversy surrounding this discussion.  Indeed, why is it funny that you are
apparently denying my feelings of fear at her threats?   Certainly, "it is safe
to assume that I did not kill *her*", yet there are some who would cast me as a
would-be mass-murderer because I had an evil *emotion* during a period of
emotional distress where, among other things, my life was threatened if I were
to discuss something which I very much *needed* to discuss.  But, nobody is
running to lynch *her* for her "female violence against men".

I never threatened or harmed her, yet she threatened my life three times.  Just
who is guilty of attempting to control and intimidate?  A few people accused me
of trying to "control women through violence," (in different words), yet with my
life under threat, I was *hardly* the one "in control".


LM> > This is also an interesting subject matter... How can "pro choice" people
LM> > oppose abortion after a sex determination, if they are in favour of aborti
LM> > "for any reason and no apologies"?  Will they oppose sex determination sol
LM> > because "it just might be a female"?
LM> >
LM> > But if one *is* "pro choice" *and* opposes abortion after a sex determinat
LM> > then the question arises : What do these people *really* believe?  - In be
LM> > Pro-Choice, or Pro-Choice-Only-If-It's-A-Choice-We-Agree-With?

LM> You seem to be confused.  Pro-choice is not pro-abortion.  Pro-choice does
LM> not mean that you're in favor of abortions at all.

I know, I know....  I have been in this debate over terminology, many times
before.

LM> It means that you're
LM> in favor of letting the woman make her own choice as to what's best for her.
LM> You can oppose abortion for sex selection, or abortion for any reason at
LM> all, as long as you don't want to *legislate* your opposition.

Yes, but there *are* many feminist groups trying to tell women who *make the
choice* to terminate their pregnancies after a sex determination, or a
determination of genetic abnormality, that they should not be making this
choice.  Indeed, there are many groups in Canada which *are* trying to outlaw
sex selection clinics and similar clinics, in order to remove the opportunity
for women to make this particular choice which they do not happen to agree
with.

I don't support legislation of this sort either, but there *are* those who on
one hand are accusing "pro-life" groups of trying to denying women "her choice,"
yet on the other hand, are trying to remove an opportunity for women to possibly
exercise that right of choice.  This is why I think that many feminist groups
are being very hypocritical regarding this issue.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * When the going gets tough, the tough buy a vowel.
From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 18:26:41 GMT
Subject: Jurisdiction Survey
Organization: HP Western Response Center