From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Coming Full Circle?
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 18:50:31 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Nov10.223855.1504@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>Tim Fogarty writes:
>
 
Ok Stan, what round number is this?
>>Lets assume that you are a 14 or 15 year old boy, in scouting since you 
>>were 7.  And you come to the realization that you are gay.  You may or may
>>not still be a virgin, but you still know that you are gay.  Now you hear that 
>>BSA offical policy is that gays are not allowed.  What does this tell you ?
>>What does this do to your self esteem ?  What do you do ?  Quit scouting ?
>
>The bottom lines on this whole discussion are-
>
>    1.	Homosexuality is immoral, and
>    2.  We have control over our behavior and the ability to know
>	right from wrong.
 
Stan,(and everyone else on rec.scouting)

1. in your opinion.  the bottom lines of this discussion are not 
   whether homosexuality is immoral or not, but if lesbigays 
   should be allowed into the BSA.   Morality is different for 
   different people, the BSA agrees with this. 
2. Agreed about control of our behavior, but as far as the ability to
know right from wrong, yes within <your> cultural context.  right 
and wrong are values which change from culture to culture, even 
generation to generation.
>
>The Scouting position on homosexuality is consistent with these
>points.
 
I disagree.  the Scouting position is that it is fine.  Other
countries have Scouting programs that allow lesbigays in them. 
the BSA does not.  DO NOT make a statement for the entire 
Scouting movement when you are incorrect Stan. 
r
>>One does not choose one's sexual orientation.  I knew that I was "different"
>>as early as the age of 7.  I have memories of feelings that I know know to
>>be expresions of my homosexuality.  I did not associate these feelings with
>>the word "homosexual" until I was in college.  However, now with the gay rights
>>movement in the news, if growing up today, Im sure I would put 2 and 2
>>together at a much younger age.  I have friends who knew that they were 
>>gay as early as the age of 12.
>
>All this tells me is that there are organized groups who feel that
>there's nothing wrong with telling teenage boys that if they have
>feelings for members of the same sex, that it's "ok" and "normal".
>That is NOT the lesson that a responsible adult should be teaching
>to any child, and anybody who does so is nothing short of a child
>abuser.

I cry here foul! I ask this newsgroup to please read this carefully.  
To Stan, you owe myself and all the other lesbigays on this net and 
all PEOPLE who do feel it is alright to teach children it is "ok"
an apology.  NOW !!!   If you continue to call people child abusers,
I will have brought up on charges of slander.  You are impugning 
my charater based on you opinion, and in that regard you have no 
right to do so.  You, in my eyes, have lost the right to courteous
discourse, You have show yourself to be a disgrace to most of the 
people in scouting that I know.  Your comment is libelous and 
uncalled for.  Substantiate your claim and I will be silent. 
If you can not, apologise and GET OFF! 
>
>>The point is that there are tens of thousands of boys in scouting today who
>>are homosexual, whether they know it or not, and whether they are virgins or
>>not.  Should a genetic or biological test for homosexuality be given to each 
>>11 year old prior to granting membership ?
>
>No, the point is more like there are 1000's of boys who, in a jungle
>environment, would seek out other males for sexual gratification.
>However we, as a specifies, have established standards of morality
>that governs our behavior, and among the standards that our society has
>established is that such a means of seeking sexual gratification is
>wrong.  No matter how our base animal instincts drive us, the fact
>is that we are in control of our own behavior (a lesson that religion
>teaches us; another positive attribute that Scouting is attempting to
>enforce), and Scouting expects it members to conform to the positive
>moral standards that our society has established.
 
However, we as species??? Who ever showed that? Quite the contrary, 
there has been shown that there are no established set of morality. 
To give a few examples, the Dobe !Kung beleive that homosexuality is
perfectly natural (see Lee's ethnography on the Dobe !Kung).  The 
Yanamamo beleive that if the population is too high, to practice 
infanticide is the Morally COrrect thing to do. (see Chagnon...
"Yanamaom, the Fierce People) DO you agree with these morals Stan?
Yes, we control our own behavior, please control yours.  Our 
"society" as you put it is quite at a mix as to your moral 
standard in this issue of homosexuality.  A President was just 
elected who has stated he supports gay rights and gays in the 
military, in Oregon a bill to declare homosexuality immoral and 
illegal was failed, and in Colorado one limiting the rights 
of lesbigays was passed.  It seems to me that this is not by 
any means a decided issue.  Stop treating it like it is.  
These are your opinions based on your religious beliefs and
your "morals." they are different from mine and as a scout
you need to learn respect for that difference.  If you can 
not show others respcet, you do not deserve it.  And as 
such, you are not a good scouter if you can not respcet and
be respected.  
>
 
For those others reading this, I apologise for my outburst, but as
a survivor of child abuse I am offended and outraged at this 
libelous post of Stan's.  I ask that if this continues that 
this group become regulated.  and to Danny, what would that 
entail.  

I will not be insulted by someone who has less of a right to wear
a scout uniform than I.  
>-- 
>Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
>UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
>Summit, NJ
>smk@usl.com

****************************************************************
*  Dominick V. Zurlo              *    "If the world's an      *
*  WWW                            *    oyster, why am I        *
*  Eagle Scout '87                *    allergic to Mollusks?"  *
*  blacklisted '88                *                            *
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 All opinions are mine and mine alone.