From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:31:14 GMT
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University


	Alright, this topic has gotten rather confused at this point. I 
think it started off topic when I stated in a reply that GURPS dying rules 
were broken. 
	This has resulted in a variety of responses, ranging from some 
reasonable fixes, to claims that the results were accurate, to the rather 
suprising (to me) statement from CX6L that GURPS was not meant to handle 
'normal people'. 

	I think that in general, GURPS damage is fairly realistic, although
the effects of wounds is not (for those not in the know, the effects of 
injury include 1 second of penalty due to pain, Half Move if you are at 
negative HT, and limbs can be crippled). 
	There are, however, several problems in it. One of these is sharp 
break in the amount of damage it takes to kill someone above HT14, which has 
already been talked to death. Another is the subject of vitals: 

	Normally, increased skill has no effect on basic damage, with the 
exception of unarmed combat skills. To offset this, 2nd edition introduced 
the 'Brain', 'Eye', and 'Vitals' hit locations. This let higher skill people 
do more damage - but only in limited cases. 
	There are several problems I have with this: 

- Shots aimed at the head or torso will never hit the brain or vitals. 
   Mikko suggested a simple fix that torso hits made by 4 hit the vitals 
   unless stated otherwise, which sounds fine to me. 
- There is a sharp break in damage from just torso to vitals (damage triples 
   for bullets, while increasing only 50% for impaling weapons), and from head 
   to brain (damage quadruples, although skull DR2 subtracted first). 
- There are other 'vital areas' which high skill should help with, but does 
   not: the throat, groin (for males), knee, etc. Many of these are handled 
   individually in GURPS Martial Arts - but I think that is getting 
   excessively complicated. 

	I understand that SJ probably does not like the abstractness of 
high skill or good hits generally increasing damage (as in Ars Magica or 
Storyteller), but this mixed solution is rather inconsistent. 

	I generally prefer realism over detail in a game. Many very complex 
games go over all sorts of details in their mechanics. However, a simple 
system can result in just as much realism overall - because the complex 
system usually has loopholes and inconsistencies, cases it does not cover, 
etc. 

	That said, there are a few points I would like to reply to: 

CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CX6L) writes:
>But there are people who fight despite wounds, face down heavy fire and 
>cooly aim between a foe's eyes when the foe is shooting. 
...
>If the PCs want to be like that, there are rules for High Pain Threshold, 
>Combat Reflexes and Strong Will to let them. 

	Combat Reflexes and Strong Will don't have much of an effect 
in a firefight if suprise is not an issue. All characters in GURPS can do 
the actions you describe above - remember that pain penalties dissipate 
after only a second in any case.  You must rely on role-playing for 
players not to act as these 'superhuman' types. 

bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike) writes:
>I still believe that anyone with a 15 stat can be considered "heroic."  

	That's interesting - because it runs contrary to GURPS philosophy. 
GURPS has repeatedly espoused that it is supposed to be realistic if 
played normally - but includes optional rules for 'heroic' play. 

>
>	The average person will die very quickly in combat.  The argument 
>was that GURPS did not handle combat "realistically."  The solution, it 
>seemed, would be to switch TORSO with VITALS (every shot to the chest 
>ALWAYS penetrates major organs?).  Unfortunately, this would prove to be 
>even more unrealistic in my book.

	The only suggestions that I have seen have been: 

1) Shots to the 'Torso' which hit by 4 become shots to the 'Vitals'. 
	(by Mikko Somone-or-other)
2) HT rolls for conciousness and dying of 14+ automatically fail (like 
    Will rolls). 
	(sorry - attribution lost)
3) A cumulative -1 penalty to rolls vs dying after the first, and a 
    penalty of the number of hits one is negative to rolls to remain 
    concious. 
	(by me)

	I think all of these are reasonable and useful suggestions. 

	Bryce also gave an overly long description of how one can quickly 
kill a 15 HT character with four shots to the vitals. This does not strike 
me as terribly convincing of the realism of the system, since *one* of 
those shots would kill an average man. Those four shots do equivalent 
damage to fifteen sword strokes by the average (10 ST) man, or twenty two 
knife stabs to the vitals. 
	An average man takes maybe 25 points to kill, whereas a 15 HT man 
often takes 75points to kill - and human range goes higher than that 
(although rarely). This I consider excessive variation for a 'realistic' 
system. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | Alice: "But if I wasn't real, I shouldn't be
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | able to cry."  Tweedledum: "I hope you don't
Columbia University         | imagine those are *real* tears."
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy