HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:12:15 GMT

In article <66791@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6390a@prism.gatech.EDU (BERNSTEIN,AVRON P) writes:
>
>....  What many people
>seem to either ignore or be simply ignorant about is just how many Poles were
>exterminated by the Nazis as well.  

A quotation to remind all:

  On August 22, 1939, [Adolf Hitler] allegedly announced to his generals:

  "Genghis Khan had millions of women and children killed by his own
  will and with a gay heart.  History sees him only as a great state
  builder.  What weak Western civilization thinks about me does not
  matter.... I have sent to the East my "Death's Head Units" with the
  order to kill without mercy all men, women, and children of the
  Polish race or language.  Only in such a way will we win the vital
  space that we need.  Who still talks nowadays of the extermination
  of the Armenians?"

     (From: Christopher R. Browning, "Fateful Months: Essays on the 
            Emergence of the Final Solution", Holmes & Meier, 
            New York, 1985, p.5, call number DS135.Y82S493)

This threat had eventually caused an enormous death toll among Poles,
which simply cannot be ignored in any historical analysis.

Josip


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: Hebrew School
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 16:46:10 GMT


In article <1992Sep2.115803.13752@news.ysu.edu> aa324@yfn.ysu.edu
(Marlene Miller) writes:

> Several weeks ago, there was a discussion here on scj about Hebrew School
> and the general consensus was most people -hated- going.
>
> Was there -anything- you liked about attending?

Field trips, overnight outings, and the occasional shabbaton.  These
activities helped build rapport which was absent when the
kids only saw each other a few hours a week.


>  Any technique the teacher
> used that caught and held your attention?

The best teachers showed a love of their work and a mastery of
the subject material.


> What specifically did you -hate- ?  I know it kept you from playing with
> your friends for a few hours, but

More like "it kept me from homework, band, and college-entrance-exam
practice for a few hours."

It sometimes seemed as if Judaism were the Holocaust, secular Zionism,
and Soviet Jewry.  After five or six years of the same material, we
were desensitized to Holocaust films, bored with Zionism, clueless
about Judaism, but eager to potch Brezhnev's tuchus.


>   what specifically in the way you were taught did you -hate- ?

I detested teachers who promoted their secular social agendas with
touchy-feely giddy enthusiasm to a bored and jaded class.
It didn't rub off.

  ( In fact, when I was ~13, I reduced one such teacher
    to tears when on the anonymous-feedback sheets, I suggested that her
    style would be more appropriate for younger kids, such as kindergarten.)

Obviously, we weren't taught about onoas dvarim (hurting by words), motzi
sheim ra (slander) or lashon hara (true but damaging gossip.)


> I'll be teaching second grade (mostly 7 and 8-year olds) Hebrew School
> this term.  Among the subjects I am responsible for are Torah, Mitzvot,
> Holidays and AlefBet. Classes will be 2 hours long.
>
> I want to make Hebrew School enjoyable for my students. Do you have any
> suggestions? 

Local day schools get the basics drummed into kids heads with
songs.  They memorize the Torah readings, the 39 melachos, the
Mishnayos, etc. early on.

Hands-on activities were a nice diversion, i.e. "make your own shabbos
candles, shofar, matza, chanukia, grogger..."

In the classroom, 'knowledge games' were educational and entertaining.
I still remember some questions I got wrong in Hebrew School ca.1978,
age 11.


R






--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: gt6390a@prism.gatech.EDU (BERNSTEIN,AVRON P)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Nazi Camps
Keywords: Poland, Nazis
Date: 2 Sep 92 22:59:44 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


After reading the last several postings here it seems to me that the opinions
of some are that: anybody who does not rabidly state the anti-Semitism in Poland
now or in the past is simply a "Polish apologist."  Well, whenever Jews attack
someone elses culture, country, religion, past, etc they should really think
about what they are doing.  You equate Russia and Poland, ignoring the virulent
anti-Semitism that has existed in Russia for a LONG time.  After the Bolshevik
revolution, the Jew's fate wasn
revolution, the Jews' fate wasn't improved at all.  Despite Trotsky and some of
the other Bolsheviks being of Jewish descent, Jews' lives didn't improve.  This
even though the government itself had changed from an elitist monarchy to a
communist, albeit oligarchical, government.  Have you actually forgotten who
Josef Stalin was?  This was a man who cruelty, paranoia, and ruthlessness made
HITLER cringe!  Hitler's worst nightmare was to be captured by the Russians
in W.W.II.  Stalin murdered nearly as many Jews, if not more, than Hitler did.
While Stalin may not have believed in "Aryan supremacy," he CERTAINLY was an
anti-Semite.  In the czarist days, the cossacks and others fomented pogroms
routinely.  When there was something going wrong, "it must be the Jews, let's
go have a pogrom and kill some..."  When you equate Poland and Russia, especiaally
from the time between WWI and WWII, you ignore just who was holding the strings
in the USSR at that time.  Other than fascism/communism, the differences 
betwenn Hitler and Stalin are not great.  Both were paranoid, power-hungry,
absolute dictators who were both anti-Semitic, among other hatreds they had also.
-- 
BERNSTEIN,AVRON P
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt6390a
Internet: gt6390a@prism.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: allen@golem.ssc.gov (Michael Allen)
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Reply-To: allen@ssc.gov
Organization: SSC Laboratory, Dallas, TX
	<BtJpDE.F01@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> <17eihqINN1sb@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:20:28 GMT

>>>>> On 26 Aug 1992 00:16:58 GMT, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) said:
In article <17eihqINN1sb@agate.berkeley.edu> schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) writes:

Richard> NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Richard> In article <BtJpDE.F01@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

>There is no place in the Torah, other than at most the statement of the
>Decalogue on Sinai, where it states it was literally given to the people. 
>There is no place in the Torah where it states that God Himself wrote the
>words, or even that He dictated them to scribes, again except for the two
>tablets of the Ten Commandments.  By Torah I mean written Torah.

Richard> How do you explain the numerous places where it says "vaydabber adonai el
Richard> moshe leimor"?  Or, for that matter, "v'zot hatorah asher sam moshe lifnei
Richard> b'nai yisrael *al pi adonai* b'yad moshe"?

A recital of the the Ten Commandments (really "Aseret HaDebrot", the
Ten Utterances) used to be part of the morning services.  It was
removed, and its re-insertion forbidden, during Temple times because
certain heretical groups denied that anything but the Decalogue was
from G-d.  Again it is seems that the Reform Movement offers nothing
new; just a repackaging of the same old heresy that has bothered the
Jewish people for 3300 years.
--
===================================================
But those who toiled knew nothing of the dreams of 
        Those Who Planned;                         
And the minds who planned the Tower of Babel       
        Cared nothing for the workers who built it.

	-Metropolis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: A few questions
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:38:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.075126.18663@watson.ibm.com> jec@zurich.ibm.com  writes:
>
>As a non-jewish person, I would like to ask the few following (naive ?) questions :
>
>1) What does mean the circumcision ? Is it required to be considered as jewish ?

A circumcision is part of the covenant between G-d and Abraham,  and
his descendants Isaac, Jacob and their decendants,

G-d has chosen us to fulfil his commandmants and we have agreed and
have agreed to circumcize our sons.

A boy whose mother is Jewish is Jewish, but his parents have an
obligation to make sure he is circumcized as part of this ancient
ritual.  If the boy is not circumcized he is still Jewish but the
obligation remains.  (There is an exception where medical problems
prevent the circumcision, but if it is simply not done, the
obligation remains.)



>What about a non-circumcised boy from jewish parents ? Is there an equivalent 
>ceremony for girls ? Why don't christian circumcise their boys, since Christus
>was circumcised and that even muslims do ?

There is not a similar circumcision ceremony for girls.

There is a modern ceremony for naming a baby girl, but it does not
have the "contractual" nature of the covenant between G-d and the
Jewish people.

I am not Christian or Muslim, so I will not presume to answer
questions about Christians or Muslims.  I suggest you ask this question
on a Christian  or Muslim newsgroup, and not here on soc.culture.jewish
if you need Christian or Muslim information.
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: i have yet to meet a Jewish murderer
Keywords: Berkowitz, etc.
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:17:47 GMT

In article <67519@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6390a@prism.gatech.EDU (BERNSTEIN,AVRON P) writes:

>... if you're thinking of Jews throughout history who were murderers.
>Then you might include various Israeli governments.  How many Arab-Israeli
>conflicts have there been?  Obviously, I'm going to get flamed for actually
>suggesting something like that, but c'mon, if you count David as one, then the
>Israeli govt qualifies also.

Of course by definition that would include every government in history, most
soldiers, many policemen, some victims of attack ...

By that definition of murder, murder isn't a crime, but a grim necessity.

Aryk Nusbacher
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Torah In A Torah Context (was Re: more of ...can of worms....)
Date: 30 Aug 92 21:19:26 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Aug28.135134.18049@panix.com> moskowit@panix.com (Len Moskowitz) writes:
>Herman Rubin writes:

>>You are making the assumption that, at the time of Moses, a Sefer Torah,
>>as a complete manuscript, was written down, either by God Himself, or by
>>Moses, or by a team of scribes under the explicit direction of Moses.

>>Also, if it were written by, or under the direction of, Moses, that he
>>got everything right.  

>Yes.  For a more complete treatment of Torah and its authorship, see
>Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's "Handbook of Jewish Thought."  For English
>speaking Jews the handbook is an almost indispensable reference text.
>It has nicely done footnoting to help those who care enough to consult
>the primary sources.

>>In either of these cases, everything in the Torah must be exactly so,
>>except possibly the pre-Adam part, where the timing may be off.  That
>>means that, for example, Eden was located where Genesis says it is, 
>>and the rivers coming out of Eden were as described, or at least that
>>was the situation a few thousand years ago. ...

>Indeed.  The rivers are still there today, exactly as described.  But
>in which of the many physical and spiritual worlds?

Two of the rivers are there, exactly as described.  They are the Tigris,
which is described, and the Euphrates, which was considered as not even
needing description.

But there are no other rivers meeting the descriptions given.

Also, the region where Eden would have to be according to the location
of the headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates has been well explored.
The Book of Genesis states that it is guarded by supernatural beings.
Now, unless these beings, instead of using swords to keep people away
as it states in the Bible, can convey the impression that there is no
forbidden place there, and there is no detectible anomaly in our observations
to indicate something is not there, we have problems.  If they can keep
us today with our equipment from even detecting the existence of Eden,
why not back then?  Why is the wording there?  
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Not a Charm?
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:17:31 GMT
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In: <P09gqB1w164w@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>
murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  brings:

>**********************************************************************
>
>       L'CHAIM              ISSUE  #   230  PART   1  OF   8
>**********************************************************************

Towards the end we read (I only bring that part of L'Chaim):

>   The mezuza is not a charm or amulet  and should not be considered as
>one.  Yet it does  offer protection. As  explained in the  Kabbala, the
>mezuza provides  G- d's  protection from  the time we  leave the  house
>until the time we return home.

I wonder  why this  function of the  mezuza does not  make it  what is
commonly called a  charm or amulet? Where is the  difference? Is it in
that one believes that it is a charm which invokes God?

Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:12:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.131851.17274@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:

>Stan can surely speak for himself, but I would like to remind
>the Polish participants here, that long before Hitler invaded
>Poland, in the 30's the Polish government had banned Jews from working
>in many professions, was conducting boycotts of Jewish businesses,
>etc.  The boycott was effective enough among Catholic Poles to drive
>many Jews out of business (and perhaps fortunately out of Poland
>too).

This shows that the Poles really did love the Jews.  Had they been
completely successful, all the Jews would have left Poland _before_ the
war and none would have been murdered by the Nazis.

And I thought the Poles hated the Jews.  Silly me.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: kmjoffe@acs.ucalgary.ca (Kenneth M. Joffe)
Subject: Re: KILL MUGABE?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 00:14:45 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Aug25.225219.17030@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   Ken Arromdee is correct in his observation.  This post was NOT
>written by a Jew.  Every aspect of this call for someone's murder
>is PROOF to any Jew that this message's author is NOT Jewish.  It
>is rather humorous that the author of this post is so transparent
>in his attempt to cast Jews in such a bad light.  This was a very 
>lame attempt.  I will not bother to explain why this could not be
>the work of a Jew.  Any Jew would know.  And the anti-semites who
>try this sort of thing are a source of much amusement for me.  So
>I have no desire to show them why they know absolutely nothing on
>the subject of Judaism.
>
Funny but true.  I do not believe that the message belonged to a
jewish author.  It really is hard to explain, but just about
any jew would at least wonder about the real intent of
the message, and most likely realize that chances are, the author
is not jewish.      

>P.S.  Besides, if Jews killed every person who has said something
>      anti-semitic, Jews would be the majority!

Hmmm....don't know about that.  I think there are many jews that
utter anti-semitic statements.  Maybe there would be more truth
in what you said if you included "....who has said something
anti-semitic, and truly meant it......
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:30:35 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

I'm writing in this group only because mr Saal does not consider my
private mail to him worth of answering. 

In article <1992Sep3.163236.25948@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>[...]  The reason I don't have a problem with retaining mention of Poland
>in the references is that I consider it revisionistic to minimize Polish
>complicity and complacency.

So you DO think that the name "Polish Death Camps" should be retained
BECAUSE of the Polish complicity in the holocaust. 

May I ask, if readers of this group would be offended by name
"Jewish Death Camps"? Using your arguments one could argue, that this
name is quite relevant, because the camps were built to kill Jews.


--

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania | If you can't learn  
Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter | to do it well,
Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                | learn to enjoy doing it badly.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:50:01 EDT
From: <EXG106@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Mac David

I have tasted a Mac David's hamburger, and I must agree with you whole-heartedl
y.  Soggy bun, microscopic meat, dry......
There are Wendy's in Israel, but the meat is...well....blech....
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: dsg@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (david.s.green)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 17:25:02 GMT

In article<dobo.715537481@swalwell> dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz) writes:
>
>My father happened to have spent 5.5 years in various Nazi concentration
>camps, most of it in the largest of them all: Mauthausen in Austria.
>He survived to write 3 books on the subject (I can hear Mr. Saal hustling:
>how come he survived? Shame on him!)

Many of my relatives were killed during the Holocaust in Europe.  Mostly,
they were residents of The Pale.

>Concentration camps were mainly in German territory. It will come to you
>guys as a surprise, but Auschwitz was incorporated into the German Reich
>in 1939. So it was not part of the GG (Poland?) then.

So?  The facts remain that Auschwitz, and other concentration camps,
were located in the area of Europe now known as Poland.  The fact
remains that Jews who lived in The Pale were targeted, rounded up,
and slaughtered just because they were Jews.  The fact remains that
the non-Jewish citizens of that land did little to nothing to stop
the Holocaust.
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: A Spiritual Dialogue?
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:23:34 GMT
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In: <1992Sep2.200358.10886@cs.tulane.edu>
david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann) replies:

>In article <9208311412.AA01083@ptms_dev.sbi.com> <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (Us
>>david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann) writes:
>>	The worldwide printing of Tanya, though not really needing
>>	justification (any more than the printing and translation of any
>>	important work, from Torah through Shulchan Aruch to, l'havidil,
>>	Shakespeare, etc.) is in fulfillment of the answer Moshiach gave to
>>	the Baal Shem Tov, when asked, "When will the Master come?" The reply:
>>	"When your Wellsprings spread forth."
>>
>>Did the Baal Shem Tov actually have a dialogue with the Mashiach?
>>
>Yes.
>(A spiritual one, obviously.)

Could David kindly explain.   What is a spiritual dialogue?   Did B.S.T.
ask and did M. reply and vice versa?   Or did the B.S.T. just dream the
whole matter?   BTW who reported on that dialogue?

>>-Don Gertler
>
>David Kaufmann

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:43:37 GMT

In article <87748@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
(Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:

>In article <1992Sep2.165613.18689@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>Speaking about distorting someones views: discussion was about Polish
>goverment AFTER WWI, not about some medieval king or duke.
>Polish goverment AFTER WWI (=BEFORE WWII) did not authorise any
>pogroms nor any discrimination. It was illegal and punishable.
>However goverment did nothing to stop harassment sponsored by some
>right wing parties and some of the christian merchants. (We're talking
>about economical rivarly).
>Russian goverment (Tzarist) supported and organized pogroms, moreover
>introduced laws discriminating settlment of Jews.

>If you say, you don't see a difference - I say :take a history class,
>if you then change the subject to medieval time, now its a distortion
>isn't it?

Of course I see a difference.  I wouldn't, however, be proud of either.

>Nor is mnie, but shall I remind you what sparked the whole discussion?
>Someone posted a letter to the canadian newspaper , protesting 
>against the expression" Polish Death Camps", instead of the correct form
>"Nazi-German Death Camps"; and what did you do? You said : Canadian
>Newspaper should keep writing about Polish Death Camps, because of the
>Polish complicity in the holocaust. Now that is a blunt distortion!

Your record is unblemished.  In addition to distorting 50 year old
history, you are able to distort 5 day old history.  All I was saying
was that the newspaper's choice of words was technically,
syntatctically, and semantically correct and defensible.  The camps
were on Polish soil.  That they didn't chose to find a phrase
euphamistic enough to further minimize the connection between Poland
and the camps should bother no one other than distorters, apologists,
and revisionists.

>That's way I do not see any difference between you and some Polish
>apologist: you clearly distort the history! I am not denying crimes
>commited on Jews by some Poles. I understand , you don't deny
>many counts of help from Poles toward Jews either.
 ^^^^
"many" is a relative term.  Unless quantifiable, it is superfluous.

>                                                   But your statement
>supporting the name of "Polish Death Camps" is an insult to both Jews
>and Poles who were killed by Nazis.

To Poles, especially those with revisionist motives, it certainly is.  To
Jews ... NOT!
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton