HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Bathroom reading
Date: 14 Dec 1992 17:37:18 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1getlaINN9dr@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.222211.23834@netcom.com> rebekah@netcom.com (Rebekah J. Jensen) writes:
>>Hullo all!
>>
>>Recently they've come out with "Bathroom Readers" full of general fiction,
>>etc. for the general public, what about some good bathroom reading for SF
>>lovers?
>
>Could it be anything but late Delany?  

[elaboration on this subject deleted]

Now, I would like to ask a question: why on earth do people assume that
works to read in the bathroom must be "bathroom humor"--i.e., stuff
that is bawdy and/or scatological, and with its intellectual level
reduced to the very *lowest* denominator?

I don't care to read works for brainless bodies anywhere else, nor
in the bathroom either.

Seems to me, the major criterion for bathroom reading is that it be
something you can put down any time you're ready to leave.  Three
categories come to mind:

(1)  Anything that's very short.  Asimov (and some co-editor, I think)
put out a volume of humorous SF short-shorts, I believe.  You could read
one, or five, or however many you have time for.

(2)  Junk mail.  Glance through it, drop it in the wastebasket.

(3)  Something you've read innumerable times and could probably practically
reconstruct from memory.  Something you can pick up, open at any place,
and read through for the allotted time, and put down again without a pang
when it's time to leave--because you already know how it comes out.  For
me this might be Mary Stuart's _The Crystal Cave_, or Stella Gibbons's
_Cold Comfort Farm,_  or any part of _The Lord of the Rings._


Dorothy J. Heydt
UC Berkeley
cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
From: doom@elaine36.Stanford.EDU (Joseph Brenner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Motorcycle Science Fiction
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:22:36 GMT
Organization: DSO, Stanford University


There's a really good Delany story in DRIFTGLASS, I believe
titled "We in Some Strange Power's Employ", about a
drop-out subculture that uses flying motorcyles.  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Last of the Renshai (?)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:43:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.223816.23392@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>In article <BzBK1L.9pn@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbeason@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Joseph E. Beason) writes:
>>Not sure if I;m getting the title right, but I recently saw two Very Thick
>>Books About Magic (VTBAM), and since I'd like some winter reading, has
>>anyone any opinions? The first is titled something like Last of the Renshai,
>>the second focuses on the wizards involved in the first book.  First book
>>back cover erfered to warrior race which is almost (sole survivor) destroyed
>>by a coalition of enemies.  Second about search for a replacement for one
>>of four wizards that keep up some cosmic balance or something.
>
>I don't want to give any plots away, but the books are really as separate
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>you say.  The emphasis is on warrior skills in the first two books,
^^^^^^^^
>but the magic is there as a backdrop, you might say.  (Hmm, this is
>vague.  Go read the books!)


Grrrr.  I meant to say "NOT as separate....".  That is, one is
not a 'warrior' book and the other a 'wizard' book.  

Julie
DISCLAIMER:  All opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: hunter@quake.sylmar.ca.us (James Collins)
Subject: Re: Green: Hawk & Fisher
Organization: Quake Public Access, Sylmar CA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:28:38 GMT

mcmahan@cs.unca.edu (Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner) writes:

> 
> I've read 2 of Simon Green's Hawk & Fisher novels, and they're
> great -- as a whodunnit detective fantasy escapism and a fun
> read. Lots of voilence, a very fast paced plot, weird creatures,
> and even a social commentary now and then.
> 
> These were 5 and 6, the only ones on the shelves. What were the
> first four called?
> 
> Scott
> 

Ok, in case no one has answered yet, they are:
  Hawk and Fisher
  Winner Takes All
  The God Killer
  Wolf in the Fold
  Guard Against Dishonor
  The Bones of Haven

Also, although it isn't specifically linked, is the book Blue Moon 
Rising.  By reading all the books, you sure get a *strong* impression 
that the two characters in this book are the early Hawk and Fisher...


---------------------------------------------------------------------
James Collins                        | Tips to live by from Rodney King
hunter@quake.sylmar.ca.us            | and Reginald Denny...
james.collins%bbs@quake.sylmar.ca.us | STAY... IN... THE... CAR...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bwebster@pages.com (Bruce F. Webster)
Subject: Re: Eco-Catastrophe Novel Request
Reply-To: bwebster@pages.com
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:42:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.164750.13017@fnbc.com> frank@fnbc.com (Frank Mitchell)  
writes:
> In article <1992Dec17.004524.17811@pages.com> bwebster@pages.com (Bruce F.  
> Webster) writes:
> > Any number of novels by John Wyndham, including _The Burning World_ and   
_The  
> > Drowned World_.  
> 
> Aren't these by J. G. Ballard?
> 

*Blush*  Yes. Let this be a warning to all of you: brain cells start  
sublimating after a certain age....     ..bruce..

Bruce F. Webster
bwebster@pages.com
From: mike@micros.COM ("Michael J. Lonski")
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: CS Friedman
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:37:55 GMT

Greetings and salutations,

I've read (and reread and reread) all three books by CS Friedman.  The
Madness Season is far and away one of my favorite books.  Black Sun Rising
is also very highly recommended.  In Conquest Born trails just a bit.
Both TMS and MSR contain very interesting and unusual explanations of
vampiric nature.  The characters involved seem real to me with flaws as
well as strong points.  It's also very good to see a large paperback that
is able to keep me occupied for awhile reading it without unnecessarily
drawing out the plot.

*** MILD SPOILER ALERT ***

I thought it was interesting how some redeeming qualities were found in
the Hunter's character.  Even if the only thing left is an extreme
commitment to honor.

Anyone have any opinions on the true nature of the "demons" in BSR and
what exactly was it that the one demon who first supported the "mad"
wizard and later tried for the Hunter fed on?  It seems like "he"
deliberately (through obeying only the "letter of the law" and providing
opportunities for self-destruction) tried to destroy the humans adepts.

-- 
Michael Lonski (address mail to: mikel@micros.com) 301-210-8134
Micros Systems, Inc., R&D, 12000 Baltimore Avenue, Beltsville, MD 20705  

Juggling - the art of consistently dropping thrown objects
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: emma@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease)
Subject: Re: Friedman opinions??
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:11:52 GMT

In <13DEC92.15135888@wums.wustl.edu> w95_cook@wums.wustl.edu writes:

>I'd be interested to hear other's opinion of C.S.Friedman.

>I found _In Conquest Born_ to be a little boring (maybe
>just too drawn out), but I really liked _The Madness Season_.

I couldn't quite get into ICB either.  I have not read TMS.

>I've just seen there's a new novel out - _Black Sun Rising_,
>or something like that.  Opinions, anyone??

I found _Black Sun Rising_ to be excellent.  It has an interesting
twist on magic and vampires.  The backcover blurb is misleading btw.  

Emma






Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: Caughill <Caughill@mixcom.mixcom.com>
Subject: Re: Steven Boyett
Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI U.S.A.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:26:34 GMT

In <9212141458.AA16994@rutgers.edu> KELLEN@CLEMSON.CLEMSON.EDU writes:

>Greg Mills asked about Steven Boyett, the author of Ariel.
>I liked the book and have his second _The Architect of Sleep_,
>although I have not read it.
>  I was at a con in Florida (Tackycon) where Steven Boyett was
>presenting.  I did not meet him directly, but he mentioned to
>a friend of mine that he had several novels rejected since
>_The Architech of Sleep_, so that may be why you haven't found
>anything else by him.
>Ellen Krupar
>kellen.clemson.clemson.edu

I find it terribly said that Boyett hasn't been able to publish another book.
I always thought Ariel was one of the best first books ever published in the
fantasy genre. If a writer who wrote such a terrific first book can't count on
continued publication, what does that say for the rest of us?

Mike Caughill

-- 
Caughill@mixcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mfterman@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire)
Subject: Re: The Wheel of Time: Prophecies and Portents (and
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Mutant for Hire)
Organization: Mutant for Hire, Inc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:06:15 GMT

In article <darknite.724276760@camelot>, darknite@camelot.bradley.edu (John S. Novak III) writes:
>I suppose this deserves spoiler warnings now...

>And finally, who or what are the Nym, mentioned during Rand's
>visions in Rhuidean?  They were described as a race of large
>people with brown skin and grassy hair.  They were (I think)
>larger than Ogier, and were associated with them. I got the
>impression that the Ogier learned treesinging from the Nym.  I
>also had the impression that the Green Man (from EotW) may have
>been nothing more than a Nym.  Intriguing-- a race of people so
>old and long-forgotten that even the Ogier confuse them with
>myths...

Correction, the Green Man was the last Nym. In that vision at
Rhuidean, he is refered to as the last Nym, and shows the same
damage to the head that the Green Man has. The Aes Sedai also
regret what they call upon him to do, as they have asked too
much of him. They also display the same powers, to hold off
the blight, as that is a reported power of the Nym.

And the Ogier probably don't confuse him with myths, they
just refer to him as the Green Man.

-- 
    Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Mean Ol' Top, Priest of Shub-Internet
    Disclaimer: Nobody else takes me seriously, why should you be the first?
mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu mfterman@pucc.bitnet terman@pupgga.princeton.edu
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
From: rmcgover@phakt.usc.edu (Rob McGovern)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Modern Fantasy, was Re: Dragonlance
Date: 16 Dec 1992 17:44:49 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

In article <1992Dec11.144139.1@hamp.hampshire.edu> mgrossman@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:

Discussion about Dragon Lance removed....


>It was just plain bad fantasy, and I don't understand why people like it instead
>of good swords and sorcery like the Robert E. Howard/L. Sprague de Camp Conan
>stories, the Fritz Leiber "Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser" stories, the Elric/
>Corum/Hawkmoon stories by Michael Moorcock, etc.
>It seems like just about all the newer swords and sorcery authors are writing
>stories more in the Dragonlance/fluff mode instead of taking the time and
>effort to be creative.  An overwelming amount of fantasy written today is
>cheap garbage, and it makes me sad.  If they can't write anything good, why do
>they write so much?


Not to butt in where I don't really belong (I only read the first three
DragonLance books before going on to something better.) but I tend to
agree whole heartedly with the previous poster....

With the major exception of the Wheel of Time Series by Robert Jordan, I
find very little that's redeming in modern fantasy.  The Draonlance books,
and the Rose of the Prophet (which is the only other Weis and Hickman I've
read) were not as adventourous, fun to read, or entertaining as a good
Conan book, or even (not classic fantasy, but similar writing style)
a Remo Williams story, which were meant to be light reading.  They 
(Weis and Hickman) had an annoying tendency (IMHO) to skip over the exciting
parts, like the quest for the dwarven hammer, and the first dragonlance,
and deal with the slow travel between scenes.  This held true with the 
Rose of the Prophet, where battles were mysteriously avoided.  Sadly,
I didn't even find the character devlopment sufficient to hold the 
story togethor.  I generally have a tendency to avoid the entire 
shelf at the bookstore that has TSR books these days since I haven't found
one that I'd ever want to re-read (my definition of a good book). 

Just my $0.02

Rob McGovern            rmcgover@phakt.usc.edu

P.S.  All flames ignored until January 10th
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: New to SF
Date: 13 Dec 92 07:30:22 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1992Dec7.175110.18123@pbhyc.PacBell.COM>, djdaneh@pbhyc (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>I have one word for you, my friend:
>
>LIBRARIES.

Absolutely.  While borrowing a book from the library isn't as convenient
as owning a copy, it's not nearly as expensive either, even if you tend
to forget about due dates.

>TEfL is a sort of odd mutant book.

I liked _Time Enough For Love_.  Some bits are weak, but as you commented
[which I deleted] it also contains some of RAH's best work as well.

>If you find you like TEfL, you might consider looking into Heinlein's later
>works which flow from it -- THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST; THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH
>WALLS; and TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET.

Ptui.  IMHO, _Beast_ and _Cat_ are representative of RAH at his most self-
indulgent and unentertaining worst.  Take TEfL, distill out any sign of plot,
any sign of uniqueness among the characters, and you might get stories very
like these.

In particular, _Beast_ contains a unique twist on the time-travelling idea.
Unfortunately, this is used mostly to provide motivation for the main characters
to spout endlessly on RAHs (rather juvinile, IMHO) vision of utopia, and How They
Think It Should Work.  A villan makes a cameo appearance early on, and is declared
a paper tiger at the end.

I did read _Cat_, but frankly, I can't recall what it was about.  That this
is the /only/ RAH novel I've read (including _I Will Fear No Evil_) that I can
say this about is probably as damning a criticism as I could hope to make of it.

I haven't read _Sail_, and have no plans to.


>These work better for someone with a general familiarity with SF and a
>specific familiarity with the work of RAH, though.

I would say that these should be reserved for True Believers and those
with an infinite bullshit tolerance.

-- 
Hey, everybody -- somebody said `mattress' to Mr. Lambert!  TWICE!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: O2NY000 <O2NY@UNB.CA>
Subject: Re: Heinlein and "wimmin"
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:46:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.195651.24178@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>In article <11DEC92.15625014.0172@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> O2NY <O2NY@UNB.CA> writes:
>>>.
>>Who do those women want to have babies with? Yes the answer is men!
>>Men also want to children. Heinlein promotes the idea that ALL humans
>>be they male or female, want to have children. Frankly, I don't see
>>what is wrong with that. If there is any greater contribution to
>>humankind than procreating, I would really like to know what it is.
>
> Technological  innovation is one obvious example. A  non-
>reproductive engineer  whose work results in (for example) affordable
>mass transit  systems which,  by  allowing industrial workers to
>live  away from the polluted  neighborhood near factories  might,
>by  extending the adult lifespan of the workers,  and  by reducing
>the loss of children to  pollution-related disorders,   increase
>the population by  more humans  than  simple reproduction on  the
>part of  the engineer would have resulted in.
>
>       James  Nicoll
>.
I don't really see how this is an obvious example. If perhaps this
engineer did not develope the advances of which you speak, is it not
probable that someone else would make these advances eventually?
The only reason that some-one else would not make the discovery is
if there were no reproduction. Then in about one hundred years
everyone would be dead, and there would be no progress. Progress,
regardless of type of progress, is inevitable given the fact that we
reproduce. It becomes merely a curiosity who invented something, the
invention would have happened eventually anyway.
From: mforget@elfhaven.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Michel Forget)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: The Wheel Of Time - Gentling
Keywords: gentling, power, escape
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:21:04 MDT
Reply-To: mforget@elfhaven.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca
Organization: Electric Storm
X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.00 Rev. Jan 16 1992


--Spoilers ahead.  If you have not read _The Shadow Rising_, you should
  probably be pounding on the 'n' key right about now.

























With all of the discussion about gentling, I thought I might mention an
idea that I had.

In _The Shadow Rising_, Robert Jordan has several of the Forsaken mention that
"any shield can be broken if you are willing to accept the pain" (paraphrase).
When Nynaeve is talking to the Forsaken in Tanchico, we see the process of
gentling/stilling described.  It is like being shielded from the True Source,
but the weave of Spirit is sharper.

If being gentled is being permanently shielded from the True Source, which
is what it seems like to me, perhaps a man could "ungentle" himself.  At
the very least, an Aes Sedia could get through a shield blocking her from
the source.

If Logain were to become ungentled, perhaps he could be the one to take
up Callandor.  One of the prophecies in _The Shadow Rising_ seems to
imply that Rand will not return to Tear to take up Callandor again.
Apparently Logain is in for some glory and power (according to Min) so
this seems like a likely course.

On a seperate subject, what did people think of the breaking of the White
Tower?  I was surprised that Gawyn would lead the other student against his
teachers.  When it happened, my first reaction was to wonder if he was a
total idiot, but after more thought, his reaction seems possible.  From
his point of view, Siaun Sanche was a boulder in the path between him and
Elayne (and Egwene).  With Elaida in power, he might have better luck finding
them.  Also, his loyalty is to the White Tower (as a student) rather than
to Siaun Sanche.








-- 
<<  -----------------------------------------  >>
<<    mforget@elfhaven.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca    >>
<<  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  >>
<<               Michel Forget                 >>
<<   The Key:  Spirit over mind over matter.   >>
<<  -----------------------------------------  >>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis)
Subject: Re: Literary SF
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:24:54 GMT
Organization: Austerlitz, Gershovitz, and Carmichael

Vance Maverick writes:
>
>Speaking of Poundy poets, and of names like yours, what do you
>make of Ronald Johnson?
>
Read the poems from "The Green Man." Skip the stuff from the Foundation
and the Ark stuff. (Do I have the titles close?) 

-- 
Jeff Davis <davis@keats.ca.uky.edu> Don't be a stranger.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: Caughill <Caughill@mixcom.mixcom.com>
Subject: Re: Anarchy in S.F.
Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI U.S.A.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 01:24:58 GMT
Keywords: Anarchy

In <BzIG2K.3xD@world.std.com> rjk@world.std.com (robert j kolker) writes:

>I can think of two SF novels that have anarchy or anarchic societies as a
>theme and context. They are:

>	THE DISPOSSESSED by U.LaGuin
>	INHERIT THE STARS by Hogan

>Can you good folks think of any others?

>Conan the Libertarian


>-- 
>"If you can't love the Constitution, then at least hate the Government"

How could you miss O'Neil Smith's "The Probability Broach" series? He's
written a series of books all based on the idea that there is a parrallel
universe where the United States became a Libertarian paradise. I envy you
that you haven't read any of these great books yet.

Mike Caughill
-- 
Caughill@mixcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bwebster@pages.com (Bruce F. Webster)
Subject: Re: Heinlein
Reply-To: bwebster@pages.com
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:02:57 GMT

In article <9212171517.AA27069@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> marotta@hannah.enet.DEC.COM  
("Hurt not the Earth, neither the sea, nor the trees.   17-Dec-1992 0958",  
Revelations 7:3) writes:
>
> Women are silly, emotional, incomplete, and dependent.  
>

Are you reading the same author as I am? Women in Heinlein's works tend to be  
strong-willed, intelligent, and competent. If they are "incomplete and  
dependent" (e.g., on men), it is no more so than men are dependent upon them  
and incomplete without them. (Go read _The Puppet Masters_.) Both men and women  
are portrayed as being "silly and emotional", even the good ones. Frankly,  
women are usually portrayed as being far more sensible and rational (and, at  
times, cold-blooded) than men. 

Heinlein was married to a very intelligent, competent, strong-willed woman  
(Virginia), whom I suspect was the role model for many of his main female  
characters. I think Virginia would have handed Robert his head if he had  
consistently portrayed women as negatively as you seem to think he did. 

Also, don't make the error of imposing your idea (and values) of how men and  
women's roles should be reflected in current society upon what those roles  
actually were 30 to 50 years ago (Heinlein started writing in the late 30's  
and--IMHO--did his best work up through the mid 60's). 

I would recommend a systematic reading of the bulk of Heinlein's work, almost  
all of which was done *before* _Stranger in a Strange Land_; he wrote  
relatively few novels after that, and I think those (the ones you criticize)  
are his weakest efforts. ..bruce..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce F. Webster             |  I have seen the Altair live and die
CTO, Pages Software Inc      |  And software startups score on sorry score--
bwebster@pages.com           |  And millions made by men like Mitch Kapor.
#import <pages/disclaimer.h> |            -- Jeff Duntemann
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kathrynw%radian@natinst.com (Kathryn Whitworth)
Subject: Humorous time-travel
Summary: William Tenn 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:57:42 GMT
Organization: Radian Corporation, Austin, Texas


I managed to track down the name of the William Tenn time-travel story I
mentioned before.  It is "Brooklyn Project", and may be found either in
Tenn's *Wooden Star*, or in the Groff Conklin anthology *17 X Infinity*.

It is written as a press-conference/lecture.  Read carefully, and watch for
mutations.

Kathryn Roth Whitworth

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,soc.history