From: L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 21:17:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <C1Bn62.5Gp@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>

kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon) writes:
>"wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
[...]
>>Judaism is a belief system which reinforces the ethnic character
>>of Jews, through its biological symbology and restrictions on
>>intermarriage.
>
>I told you what I feel to be the main reason for discouraging
>intermarriage.  

	Hey, I'd like to hear it also!  Are you speaking of discouraging
intermarriage for Jewish folk, or intermarriage in general?  Please, don't
be shy...

>>Muslims, Christians, and Buddhists do not constitute ethnic
>>groups. Islam, Christianity and Buddhism are universalist belief
>>systems which direct themselves to the human race at large
>>without regard to ethnicity.
>
>Actually, Islam and Christianity have not only directed themselves to
>the human race, but forced themselves on the human race.  Christianity
>condemns all non Christians.  Islam does also, but to the extent that
>Christianity does.  

	I think you meant to say "not to the extent," right?

	I agree, Christianity has been a scourge on the human race.  It's a
Belief System (tm) perpetuated through money and violence, and the various
conquests and inquisitions have surely left civilization bereft of many
potential creative people.  Hmm... let me amend this to ALL religions, but
certainly Christianity stands out in modern times.

	Confused on my stand?  My mother is a catholic, so is my father.
I'm an atheist.  I will not defend ANY religion.  You can label me
"Christian" all you'd like, or a "self-hating Christian" but I would 
prefer human being, if you don't mind. We can share *that* as a common 
denominator, can't we? :-)

>Maybe you should just stay away from us Jews if you have such
>a problem with us.  I think we Jews would have been a lot better off
>throughout history if more non Jews would have done this rather than try
>to ram their beliefs down our throats (to quote a previous post of
>yours). 

	Therefore, Jewish people have not been known to wage wars based on
their Belief System (tm)?  Remember, this is a question, not rhetoric, so
please treat it as such.

>>For instance, despite their ethnic and national differences,
>>Irish Catholics, Italian Catholics, and German Catholics can find
>>a common ground in their religious symbols.
>
>Ethiopian Jews, American Jews, and Yemenite Jews find a common ground in
>their religious symbols.  What'our point?  

	From what I have read of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, only a small
number have been allowed to immigrate into Israel, while Russian Jews have
been able to rain down aplenty.  I do understand that both groups have had
great difficulty finding meaningful jobs and proper housing, but I've also
understand that the Ethiopian Jews have been sequestered in the remote
lands of Israel.  Care to comment?

>>But how can Judaism provide a common ground between Israel and
>>the nations, between Jews and other major ethnic groups, when it
>>is centered so strongly on Israel and Jews alone?
>
>Who else should Jews center on?  We don't spend all our time and energy
>worrying about other religions and whether or not they're doing the
>right thing.  It is really not my business to criticize another religion
>unless the beliefs directly affect me, and many beliefs do,
>unfortunately.  

	I believe the statement you've responded to is attempting to 
indicate the perceived isolationism of Israel by the Western world. Since
"ethnic groups" and not "religions" is the subject of the common ground,
your response is misguided.  I do believe any nation, not just Israel,
*should* be searching for a common ground between other nations. Using
one's enemies as an excuse not to pursue such is simply thinly-veiled
isolationism, and possibly at worst, xenophobic.

>>If there are ethnic elements in Islam which I have overlooked,
>>please bring them to my attention. Islam does not strike me as
>>being primarily ethnocentric in nature.
>
>Every group of people is ethnocentric.  A group would not continue to
>exist without some degree of ethnocentrism.  That is a matter of human
>nature.  It's a bit like rooting for your own school's football team.
>Why would you root for another team?

	I myself root for the Human Race team.  Believe it or not, some of
us do think that all of us have a lot in common.  Not adhering to a
religion or ethnic culture does not make you any less a proud individual
that is part of this rich tapestry we call humanity.  Unless, of course,
persecution or isolationism is what you're looking for as a way of life.

>>In the bookstore the other day I took a glance at Joseph
>>Telushkin's Jewish Literacy. He comments on page 625: "It is
>>estimated that five to ten thousand non-Jews convert to Judaism
>>annually in the United States." 
>
[...]
>You know something, Wayne, it really isn't important to me whether or
>not we have a large number of converts.  Judaism does not actively seek
>converts as Christianity does.  This is one thing I like so much about
>Judaism.  We don't sit around condemning others to Hell because they
>don't have the same beliefs as we do.

	What's wrong with you???  Jesus is the path to salvation! :-)

>>If Judaism is a modern universalistic religion that transcends
>>ethnicity, this is clearly not a message that has gotten through
>>to the world, as judged by its eagerness to convert.
>
>Is this important?  Would you like for us to go out on the streets and
>hound people, begging them to convert?  Or maybe we should go door to
>door.  Maybe r Rabbis should preach that the more heathens we convert
>the better chance we have of getting to Heaven, (something I heard once
>in a Baptist church)>

	Different Christian-based religions describe differing paths to
Heaven (or Paradise), depending on the interpretation of both Testaments.
Your mileage may vary.

>>Combining ethnocentrism with religion with nationalism strikes me
>>as a volatile proposition. All three factors can be forces for
>>great divisiveness in the world, separately and most assuredly in
>>combination. Many of Israel's worsening problems are the product
>>of its ideological presuppositions, concepts which perhaps need
>>to be rationally examined more than emotionally defended in a
>>knee-jerk fashion.
>
>Wayne, what do you want from us?  Do you want us to totally change all
>aspects of Judaism so that more people will want to convert?
>Christianity did this, didn't it?   Have you noticed that Judaism is the
>oldest monotheistic religion?  Have you noticed that we have survived
>attrocities that no other group has been subjected to?  We must be doing
>something right, we're still here.  

	I don't know what Wayne wants from what you define as "us," other
than what he's asked for (rational examination of Israel's ideological
presuppositions), but I know what I want; a non-emotional explanation of
the ongoing brutalization of a non-Jewish people by a people who themselves
were once brutalized.  Atrocities by any other name are still atrocities.

>Keren
>>---
>>  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Lilys: In the Presence of Nothing
>>--
>>Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Regards,

--Louis
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