From: kwelch@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jack Kerouac)
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity
Subject: Re: What needs to happen to discuss these issues productively.
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:27:10 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

David
>Kevin
>>David
>>>Kevin


>>>>>Wrong - it is purposeful; the purpose is to terminate the pregnancy.

>>>>The purpose is to kill the fetus to end pregnancy.

>>>This may be like  "The purpose is to drive the car to get to work".  Do I 
>>>just like to drive or do I want to get to work. An abortion is to end a 
>>>pregnancy. To this end, fetal tissue is killed (yes, it is killed). The 
>>>purpose is *not* to kill the fetal tissue.

>>There is only one way to end pregnancy.  To end pregnancy, one must
>>kill the fetus.  Killing the fetus ends pregnancy.  Abortion kills the
>>fetus.  Fetal death ends pregnancy.  There are many ways to get to work.
>>I may drive, walk, bike, take a bus, fly, etc...so Drving a car doesn't
>>mean I will go to work since there are many other methods to get to 
>>work.  Drving a car does not mean going to work.

>Good so far. Keep in mind the purpose of the action. I don't get in the car
>*to* drive, but to *get to work*. I may *walk* to work. The purpose is to 
>*get to work* not to walk.

Your purpose FOR driving the car is to get to work.  The pupose OF getting
in the car is to drive (or vacumm it or whatever :)

>Try ending a pregnancy *without* killing the fetus. To get to work, you need
>to *go* somehow. With the purpose of getting to work, you have to leave the 
>house.

Exactly.  The pupose OF abortion is to kill the fetus.  That is what I have
been saying all along.  You may work at home...



>>>>  You just don't end
>>>>pregnancy.  You kill the fetus.  Since there is a purpose according to
>>>>you, is it a fruitful purpose to kill humans?

>>>You need to straighten out cause and effect.

>>The cause, or intention, is to kill the fetus.  

>We may need to just drop this as all you are doing is totally ignoring
>cause and effect and reasserting nonsense. If you can prove to me that women
>have some kind of grudge against fetuses and want them all dead, that is one
>thing, but I have observed to majority of women who get abortions did so
>to end the pregnancy.

The purpose FOR abortion is to end pregnancy.  The purpose OF abortion is
to kill the fetus.  Big difference.  Abortion kills the fetus.

But let's continue onward...


>>When the fetus dies, pregnancy
>>in this case ends.  The direct course of action is to kill the fetus since
>>there is only one way to end pregnancy unnaturally.  The termination
>>of pregnancy results from fetal death.  Termination of pregnancy is the side
>>effect of fetal death.  Pregnancy is directly related and dependent upon
>>the presence of a fetus.  A woman cannot be pregnant without a fetus.  To
>>have an abortion kills the fetus.  The side effect is the termination of 
>>preg.

>Everything you just said is true but does not address why a woman gets an
>abortion.

That's why the purpose FOR abortion is to end pregnancy.

The direct action is to kill the fetus.  THe end result is a dead fetus and
the termination of pregnancy.




>>>He is not saying it is not a human fetus, he is saying it is not a human being.
>>>I imagine there is perceived to be a distinction there. I certainly see one.
>>>I do not see a 8weed fetus meeting any criteria for being a human being.

>>Larry fails to make distinctions between human beings in the genetic and moral
>>senses.  SOmething prevents him from realizing their are differences and
>>that most philosophers and proponents accept.  A fetus may not be a human
>>being in the moral sense, but it is a human being genetic.

>Please comment on my post containing the criteria for being a human being.
>An 8 week fetus does not match the definition of person or human being but
>more matches the definition of a clump of cells. Repetative reassertion
>will never make something true.

I think it does fit the definition of a human being.  I think it fits the
definition for human being at conception.  However, personhood comes
later.  It is of human form, near recognziable at 8 weeks.  It is a human
being.



>>>You only assert a human  fetus is a human being.

>>I assert that it is a human being in the GENETIC sense.

>But 'being' implies an individual, perhaps a 'person'? Genetically, all 
>my cells are *human* in the genetic sense. I don't hold a funeral for
>killed sperm.

A being is something unified that exists, not an individual, not a person.
Genetically all your cells are human, but they are not human beings.

>>>A human fetus is genetically human. Is cake batter a cake? It's not done,
>>>cake batter is not a cake, a human fetus is not a human being, nor is it
>>>a cake.

>>>>Bodily autonomy does not allow the body to incur damage to itself.

>>>Wanna bet? What is shock? Stupid thing your body does that'll kill you. There
>>>are lots of examples of things your body does to kill you.

>>Shock is bodily preservation!!!!!! 

>Shock is bodily preservation with an evil twist. It may help but will 
>definitely kill you untreated. Some preservation.

The human body has its limitations when it is injured.  We are not
immortal.  We cannot repair ourselves whenever we desire.  The body
does its best to preserve itself when under unfavorable conditions.  SHock
is on of those conditions.


>> If no one tends to a shock victim, he
>>eventually dies!!  Shock stops all blood flow to unnecessary organs to
>>route the blood to the brain!!  TO keep the brain alive!!!  The most vital
>>integration center of the body!!  Shock causes the body to shiver to keep
>>up body temperature!!  Shock does not kill the body.

>The orginal point, moving to being lost like all the other points, is that
>yes, your body will kill you. It is not a true statment to say that the 
>human body will always try to save itself. It has some bad ideas about what
>saves itself. Sure, shock tries to save blood for the brain, this just 
>happens to kill you. Not a good preservation mechanism I'd say. It 
>doesn't work. Without modern medicine helping *stop* you body from excercising
>'bad judgement', your body just killed you. 

I'd rather be relying on shock than not having it at all.  The human body
isn't a masterpiece at survival.  It does, however, have life saving
mechanisms.  Shock is one.  Shock does not kill the human body, it is the
consequences of shock that kill.  These happen to be inflicted diseases and
the death of organs if shock is not reversed.


Let's end this.




kcw



--
FORCE IS MACHINE					-=( Kevin C. Welch )=-
VISIONS OF ORDER			     -=(kwelch@eniac.seas.upenn.edu)=-
MUSCLE AND  HATE
JOIN IN THE CHANT						   - NitzerEbb