HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Same-sex consorts
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 17:57:13 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Thom Watson wrote on the question of same-sex consorts.  My lord, you have
made some excellent observations which deserve serious consideration.
Unfortunately, you have mixed them with a great deal of angry rhetoric.  I
can understand that: Homosexuals and bisexuals in American society today
are an embattled minority, and it often seems that the world doesn't listen
to minorities unless they get up and make trouble.  Anyone who doesn't
understand how bad it's gotten would do well to read an op-ed article that
appeared in the NY Times last week, concerning anti-homosexuality laws and
terrorism in Oregon.

The best point you made, Thom, was this:

> The point is that a gay man or woman in the SCA is more likely to hold to
> the courtly ideal espoused in this thread when fighting for and inspired
> by a member of the same sex.  

Lindorm made a similar point:

> In most places in te SCA fighting for ones loved one in crown torney (if
> one have one) is considered the thing to do. Corpora's denying that
> posibility to homosexuals. 

I'm sorry that I missed that crucial point, and I thank you both for
bringing it up.  This is indeed a very strong argument for allowing
same-sex consorts.  Against that, we must balance the feelings of those in
the Society who feel that this change would significantly damage the
romantic image of the Society.  Thom, your analogy to female fighters may
be dead-on the mark.  This is by no means an easy question to resolve, and
I urge everyone to avoid trivializing it.  As I noted earlier, it is always
easier to call people names and turn them into opponents than to listen to
them, reason with them, and work with them to solve the problem together.
All parties have legitimate arguments, and it helps no one to ignore them
or dismiss them with rude words.  Thom, I'm afraid you have been guilty of
that over the past few days: You've made the unwarranted accusation of
"bigotry and homophobia", you've made the groundless (and false) assumption
that anyone who disagrees with you is heterosexual.  You would have
accomplished more & more quickly if you had given us your good arguments
from the beginning, and left your anger aside.

I would prefer to set the subject aside for the time being and take some
time to think about it.  Thom, Lindorm, you may have me convinced, but I
need to weigh all the arguments.  I hope we can come back to this in a few
weeks, and continue the discussion as friends.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: hammond@lrc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:05:18 EDT
Organization: Lenoir-Rhyne College, Hickory, NC

In article <1992Aug31.203734.21956@access.digex.com>, corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
> In article <1992Aug31.123211.16136@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander)) writes:
>>John McGuire (John T Dillon) writes:
>>>
>>>  The great diesel beasts at Pennsic were an annoyance, bleating their 
>>>challenge out in both daylight and darkness.  However blame not all of 
>>>them as being unfriendly and malicious.  Most of them were blaring not to
>>>awaken campers, but to express displeasure and alarm at the throng of smaller
>>>dragons perched on the roadside, or in the road, peering into the camp.
>>>
>>I suspect the State of Pennsylvania would be happy to permit us to 
>>engage in a roadside beautification project:  We could acquire a 
>>bunch of saplings, of one of those fast-growing tree varieties that 
>>various lumber companies have developed, and plant them in a fairly 
>>close-packed row along the fence, as far up the embankment as the 
>>State would permit.  If we did the planting during the war, there'd 
>>be plenty of volunteer labour.  (We'd want to have the holes dug 
>>beforehand, of course -- doing that by hand would be a little too 
>>period for most people's taste -- but I suspect the Coopers own 
>>a backhoe; if not, it wouldn't be that expensive to rent one for 
>>a day or two.  Dropping the trees off a truck, setting them in 
>>the holes, and filling in the holes wouldn't be a big deal for a 
>>bunch of healthy young fighters.)  If we started off with 15-foot 
>>saplings, it would do some good immediately, and probably make 
>>the campground completely invisible from the highway by PW XXX.
>>I for one would be willing to contribute both time and money to 
>>such an effort; I suspect the Coopers would as well.  (For those 
>>who object that we may not be at Coopers' Lake that much longer:
>>I disagree, for a variety of reasons there's no point in going 
>>into here.  But you're entitled to your opinion:  if you think 
>>it would be a wasted effort, then don't contribute to the effort.)
>> 
>>I'm serious about this, and would like to know what other people 
>>think.  (Can you tell I was camped on the Serengetti, too close 
>>to I-79?)

Seems like a great idea to me. I also was on the serengetti and had
wondered at the continued noise from the adjacent through way.
I don't know what my situation will be for nexe pennsic, but if I 
am available I believe I can contribute some time to such a worthy project.

				Michael of Hammond
				from the soon to be (we hope)
				incipient Barony of Winding Waters,
				Kingdom of Atlantia
From: zebee@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: more on inspiration
Date: 14 Sep 92 07:45:11 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
NNTP-Posting-Host: sirius.itd.adelaide.edu.au


>If people who have no particular interest, romantically, in each other
>can serve as sovereign and consort -- why do we still cling to the
>notion of one's consort being the 'inspiration' that spurs the
>winning fighter on to victory?  

In my case, I would most likely fight for Gerald of Swinford - the
man who persuaded me to take up fighting, convinced me I could
do it, and spent hours training me.  IF he didn't inspire me to fight 
and win, who did?

The interesting question is - if I *was* romantically involved with
someone, would I fight for them, not Gerald?  

I think it would depend on them - who they were, whther they were 
involved with the SCA, how they would handle being Prince Consort,
and how they felt about my *not* fighting for them.

So, can you only be inspired by *one* person?

As to whether you need to be inspired at all, for me it is part of the
concept of romanticism - of Mallory and Tristan, of the Brave Days of Old
and the rest of the mostly Victorian claptrap that got me into the 
Society in the first place.

This is, of course, part of the fantsy v history thread.  If your
same-sex consort ruins my high-romance ideals, who gives way?

If your elf-ears ruin my high-romance ideals, who gives way?

In the end, no matter the arguments, right and wrong, I suspect
it will come down to numbers.  While the number of people 
who believe that same-sex
consorts should be allowed is small, then they will not be.  When the
pro-side reaches critical mass, then it will change.  Which may well
mean that such as I will leave.

I second Hal (I think it was Hal) who said "write to the BoD".  IF you 
want to change things, then that is the only way to do it.

Selfran  

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills.... 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:59:39 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Hal wrote about a Western event:

> The $25 paid for privies abouve what were permanent on the site--and
> their regular service.  There is a shower building on site.  There is a
> lake adjacent to the site--state owned, I think.  Off-site parking was
> paid for--though not where it was intended to be. 
> 
> What more does one need?

For a very large event: Trash dumpsters and removal service.  Medical
supplies.  Extra insurance.  Clerical supplies for the troll booth,
security, chirurgeon, classes, heralds' point, chatelaine.  Supplies for
the battles & archery, including haybales, boundary ropes, archery targets,
marshall's staves.  Transportation & other supplies for security.  

Perhaps some of our past Pennsic staffers can list more.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Colored tape
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1992 23:01:38

 JB>  The easy counter-argument is that in medieval warfare and tourneys
 JB> the participants did it much more often and so such 
 JB> measures worked better.
Well, that depends.  One War of the Roses' battle was lost because of 
 confusion between two badges, which just happened to be on opposite 
 sides.  (Since I'm doing this from memory, they may not have totally 
 lost, but it sure mucked up their chances, and I can't remember which 
 sides it happened to, either....)
     Gwenllian

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Consorts (was: Same-sex)
Date: 9 Sep 92 23:47:01 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Thom writeth:
> The point is that a gay man or woman in the SCA is more likely to hold to
> the courtly ideal espoused in this thread when fighting for and inspired
> by a member of the same sex.  

Here is a rather bizarre thought I had, which would address this
problem in a skew direction, although it certainly wouldn't solve it.

As I recall, there was a Court of Love finding that a man could not
possibly love his wedded wife with "true love."  (I believe the court
was presided over by Marie, daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine, and one
of the leading authorities on courtly love in period.)

This suggests that a man's wife could not inspire him in a joust or
tournament.

If we accept this as a period truth, we should prohibit competitors
in crown lists from fighting for their spouses.  Effectively, this
would prohibit married couples from reigning together.

I guess this would mean that the only intimate couples that could
rule together would be unmarried heterosexual couples.  This still
is not equitable, but the direction of the discrimination becomes
distinctly odd.
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Hiring Professionals (was Re: Pennsic Land Allocation)
Date: 10 Sep 92 15:14:30 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Corun writes:
> Aryk answers;
> >Why not?  There are SCA groups that hire professional chefs to cook their 
> >feasts, and who better to teach history than a teacher of history?
> 
> I've never heard of an SCA group hiring professional cooks. I'm not disputing
> you, I've just never heard of such a thing. To me, half the fun of being 
> in the SCA is researching a thing and doing it myself to the best of my
> ability. 

May I invite you to the Rhydderich Hael?  Ice Dragon XVI in Mid-March _will_ 
be professionally catered.  Why?  Because nobody wanted to cook for over
400 people.  
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: C_PUFFER@unhh.unh.edu (Charles   Puffer)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: University of New Hampshire
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:27:42 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.12

In <1992Sep9.142852.29902@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM writes:

> 
> Aryk suggests that the Pennsic Autocrat be salaried.
> 
> Corun MacAnndra says no, citing all sorts of possible problems:
> 
>   If that happens we could be in big trouble. Where does the money come from?
>   If from volunteers, then we open up the War to more graft than the federal
>   government. Also, how does paying a member conflict with the Society's
>   non profit status with the IRA? I don't know the answer to that.
>
	I dont think the IRA will care inless we stack a claim to Northern
Ireland :-) . The IRS on the other hand may have some feelings on the subject. 
> 
> So, Aryk, while I admit that a Pennsic Autocrat is working pretty hard, and
> deserves something, can you tell me how 5 or 10 thousand bucks is going to
> get the SCA a better class of autocrat?  Or make a better autocrat out of
> an average one?  Will that pittance (which is all we can afford, easily)
> really widen the pool of applicants?
> 
> 	Tibor
> --
> Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)

	I will add two thoughts here. The first is this should be thought of as 
a grant or stipend not a pay check. People might make the autocrats job a lot
harder if the autocrat was a payed position. This would also alow the person to 
find other income as needed.


[_-_-_-_-_]            
 |       |______________     Charles Puffer
 |      /             /  \   C_PUFFER@UNHH.UNH.EDU
 |    /_____________/      \
 |    |            |  |^|  |        Lord Duncan Forbes
 |    |            |  | |  |         Barony of Stonemarche
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:51:24 GMT

Greetings!

(Hans Rancke-Madsen) writes:

>>Which causes me to wonder whether you've actually been to an SCA event.
>
>Sadly, no. The only knowledge I have of the SCA derives from the afore-
>mentioned "Amra" articles and from browsing on the Rialto.
>      Hans Rancke

It might be obvious to a lot of people on the Rialto but not to the lurkers
and curious but...

The Rialto is very very very different from the SCA.  There is a great deal
of similarity in terms of people and topics of discussion.  But there is no
way to use the Rialto to make any sort of appraisal of the SCA.  The "feel"
is entirely different ("feel" being a highly technical term used by someone
who doesn't want to go on at great length).

Richard					Jeff Sussman
Storvik					Silver Spring
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:46:10 GMT

Beltane and Pennsic are not comparable events.  Beltane was 1100 people in dribs
and drabs over 10 days, with Westerners and An Tirians predominating, and
Pensic is 8500+ in constant increase over 17 or so days from everywhere.  It's
like comparing Rochester and New York City.

Pennsic is a very cheap holiday.  If the rates went up, people might spend
less on booze (expensive in PA compared to Indiana, but free compared to
Ontario and Quebec) or cloth for encampment walls, or at the merchants, or they
might come for one day fewer.  Nobody's going to be kept away by $10 or $20
more.

Aryk Nusbacher

<who spent less in two weeks at Pennsic than in four days in Berkeley in April>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Tournaments
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 15:40:25 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Bertram quoted some research on tournaments.  For anyone interested in the
history and development of tournaments, I highly recommend Barber, Richard
and Juliet Barker, _Tournaments_ (New York, Weidenfield and Nicolson,
1989).  This looks like a coffee-table book, but it is an excellent and
learned account of the history of the tournament throughout Europe.  It is
also heavily illustrated, which is fun.    

> "The five places Richard I licensed [for tournaments] were all stretches
> of open rolling country either on or near a great main road."

> This supports the idea that tournaments in England were _not_
> spectator sports.

Note that this is the _very_ beginning of the tournament.  All it tells us
is that spectators were unlikely at that time.  What happened later is
still open to question.

> On the other hand, there is a reference to calling these tournaments
> 'fairs.'  I don't have enough data to say if 'fairs' implied large
> numbers of people from more than just the nobility...

I don't _think_ the word "fair" carried the same meaning that you are
attributing to it: I believe it was a more generic word (or, more
accurately, it is an English translation of a more generic medieval Latin
word) which applied to any festive public gathering.  Tournaments were
different enough from other fairs to require another word to describe them,
as your quotation also shows.

> In volume 2 of Marc Bloch's _Feudal Society_, (published in 1961 in
> English and written during the 1930's) the author makes a point of
> connecting tournaments with pre-Christian 'games' of various sorts...

Bloch's analysis has been discredited by subsequent research.  The medieval
chroniclers also liked to connect their tournaments with the Roman
tradition of military games (martial games, as opposed to the Circus, which
was a different thing entirely), but more recent authors have discounted
this as mythology.  A great deal of Bloch's work must be read with great
skepticism; as a pronounced Marxist, he had an agenda which pervaded his
work.  For an excellent analysis of Bloch's strengths and biases, I
recommend the appropriate chapter of "Inventing the Middle Ages", by Norman
Cantor.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: charles@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Charles Jacob Cohen)
Subject: Re: Filk and the SCA
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:39:31 GMT

In article <7382@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu> bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes:
>Gentles!
>
>First, I must say that those who do filk are frequently fine and
>talented individuals.  But, I must ask why must "filk" be done
>in the SCA?  As I recall, "filk" is a fanish activity which
>derives its name from a misprint in a Science Fiction Convention
>Program.  Now, I have been known to attend science fiction 
>conventions.  But, I rather prefer that the SCA be different
>from a Con.  Those who wish to do filk have pleanty of oportunity
>at conventions so why must they do filk at bardic circles?
>I really see no need for heroic poems about Jedi Knights, SNOFs
>or the other furniture of fandom at a "medieveal/renesaince"
>event.  
>

M'Lady,

There is also many filk pieces that are of a purely medieval flavor,
in addition to those SCA historical songs that you mentioned in this 
article. At the circles I attend, we usually restrict our filk to 
music that, although the tunes might not be medieval, the songs and
ideas are. - Midair the Juggler



-- 
"I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use." - Galileo
"I'm an engineer, not a dictionary!" - Me
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:15:46 GMT

In article <BuA0In.4My@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>
>What they really needed was two hundred Scottish foot with spears!

OK, sure! Get me my sythe! ;-)

>Ever sat with a bunch of middle-aged Scadians and watched _Knight Riders_
>while pointing out who's supposed to represent which personality from
>Pennsic X?
Aryk, since we're talking socks, feet and other stuff anyways....
explain this one to me.... I donna get it!  :(

Sebastian

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nomad@castle.org (Lee Damon)
Subject: Re: Homoerotic poetry
Organization: The Castle, not-yet-Public Access Un*x Systems; Peekskill, NY
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:53:47 GMT

unto Yaakov, and all of those assembled here who do read my words, Greetings!

In article <9209130202.aa01828@mc.lcs.mit.edu> lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi) writes:
>In the courses of my researches on Hebrew poetry,
>I have discovered that there was a significant
>amount of homoerotic poetry written by all the
>major Jewish poets 

I'd love to see this poetry. Could you post pointers to it?

>In any event, this got me interested in trying
>my hand at it.  does anyone know if either the
>Clan Blue Feather newsletter or BUT IT'S PERIOD
>accept poetry?

Yes, they both do. You can send submissions (or subscription requests - $10/yr)
to The Blue Feather at:
	The Blue Feather
	c/o Lord Tristan Alexander
	103-J North Rock Glen Rd.
	Baltimore, MD 21229

I don't have information on "...But It's Period" because all of my copies are
packed, as I'm going through the hell of moving right now. If you want it,
drop me a note and I'll try to dig a copy up.

Christopher Thomas		mka Lee Damon
Northpass			Mahopac, NY
East Kingdom

nomad
-- 
play: castle!nomad or nomad@castle.org                                 \
work: nomad@watson.ibm.com                  - Lee "nomad" Damon -       \
Seneschal; The Castle, Public Access Un*x Systems.                     / \
  - Unashamed -                                                       /   \
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Marshalls in armor
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:55:24

 CP> coat of plates, and half decent knees. Put them in belted
 CP> overtunics and breaches of some awful fluorescent colour, and
 CP> give them standardised staves.

 Please milord!  Not the dreaded *Flourescent Color*!  We can dress them in  something bright without it being so out-of-period that the onlookers gag!

 -- Vashti, who is afflicted with good color sense, even if you'd never know  it by my garb (grin)!


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:32:26 GMT

I have noticed a lot of discussion of Jean d'Arc.  I thought I might
translate for the non-Francophones on the net.  Jean d'Arc is, of course,
John of Arc, the famous southern French bricklayer who invented the
Flying Buttress.

It is unknown whether he was related to Jeanne d'Arc.

Aryk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca