HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmunkki@vipunen.hut.fi (Juri Munkki)
Subject: Re: Gorge Season Not Over Yet
Reply-To: jmunkki@vipunen.hut.fi (Juri Munkki)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:52:29 GMT

In article <7522@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> wiltonh@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Wilton G Hart) writes:
>My fin stash is getting low so it is time to get a fin update.  I have heard
>lots of peple on the net talking about pointer fins but does this really make
>sense for a place like the Gorge where you do not have to go up wind very
>much?  In the past I have been using the Dill Thick fins and like them a lot.
>Are there better fins of that style today?  What fins have people tried that
>they do not like?

I heard that world cup sailors are now using short elliptical pointer fins
for downwind slalom racing. Something like that might work for Gorge
conditions.

You could also try to find an extremely short blade, but I don't think there
would be much to gain if you compare it to the elliptical pointers.

I now have two Rainbow blades, a V2 and V3. Both are quit large, so I don't
think they would work at the Gorge. The V3 seems a bit easier to jibe, but
otherwise I haven't noticed any really big differences. The V2 might be just
a bit more resistant to spin out. Supposedly, the V3 works better with
smaller sails (5.0/5.5 and so) and the V2 with larger sails (6.0).

-- 
  Juri Munkki					       Windsurf: fast sailing
 jmunkki@hut.fi					      Macintosh: fast software
From: Daniel_Lewis_Golding@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BSA and its attitude toward religion, or the lack thereof.
Date: Thu,  5 Nov 92 00:20:39 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa
  <JASON.92Nov2161121@ab21.larc.nasa.gov>

I disagree that the "God" the BSA refers to is strictly Christian in
nature. As a scout I felt very comfortable being Jewish and even 
Jewish religous activities at scouting events. I know of persons from 
many religions other than Christianity that participate in scouting - 
just about any one you can think of. 
           Dan Golding

Internet:Daniel_Lewis_Golding@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter)
Subject: Skiing
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:56:01 GMT

My Troop will be skiing at Purgatory Dec 4-6.  Anyone on the net plan to be
in Durango?  We will be at the Rio Grande Hotel.  Perhaps we could meet for
dinner.  It would be a blast to see a real face.

Bill Hunter
Scoutmaster, The Vertical Edge
Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
1300 S. Litchfield Rd.
Goodyear, AZ  85338
PH 602 925 7929  Fax 602 925 6988
From: macman@bernina.ethz.ch (Danny Schwendener)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: ### Call for roundup (circles and More on...)
Summary: stay tuned, we'll be right back
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:25:22 GMT
Organization: Peppermint Software Inc.


I'd like to make a short break in this discussion round, because
this subject's has now become nested to four levels, which makes
it very hard to follow.

Besides, I see the same arguments coming over and over again.

So let's make a first roundup. Could each of the participants
in this discussion please mail me a list of their arguments 
on why Gays should or should not be allowed in the BSA.  
The same request also counts for the Atheists vs. BSA issue.

I will sum up the items I received and post them to the net
in a week from now. 


Three simple rules to make the text easy to go through:
   1) Please be concise in your argumentation 
      (up to 5-6 lines per argument if possible)
   2) don't mix your arguments (or the issues), and 
   3) don't set them up as a reply to someone else's posting.


Note that this isn't an attempt to kill off the discussion. 

Feel free to follow-up on one of the messages posted so far,
but remember that the deeper we go into the discussion, the
less it becomes worthwile to read (and the less it is read, too).


-- Danny Schwendener         macman@bernina.ethz.ch
   Wolfsmeute Nidau/Glockenhof, Sihlstr. 33, CH-8001 Zurich, Switzerland
   m.h.c. Troop 14, San Francisco
From: ceichel@eis.calstate.edu (Charles L. Eichelberger)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BOA
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:17:35 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU (Dennis J. Wilkinson) writes:
> 
> Being the Scoutmaster, I do not sit on BOR's *at all*. If you check out your
> handy-dandy copy of the BSA's "Advancement Guidelines" you find that the *only* 
> people allowed on the BOR are the members of the Troop Committee, headed up by
> your Advancement Chairman (or failing that, the CC). Relatives of the boy are
> _never_ allowed on the BOR. For Star and Life, a rep. of the District Advance-
> ment commitee must be present, and for Eagle, a member of the Council EBoard 
> (why the EBoard I'm not sure, but that's how my Council's been doing it for the 
> past few years.)

A member of the District Advancement Committee present for Life and Star??
Humm, according to what I have here is says:

"The board of review is comprised of not less than three nor more than six
members of the unit committee. Parents or guardians of the Scout being
reviewed, the unit leader or assistant unit leaders (Scoutmaster, Choach
or Advisor) do not sit on teh board. The Unit Committee member in charge
of advancement or the unit committee chairman serves as chairman of the
board and is responsible for keeping the review moving smoothly,
completing the Advancement Report and turning it into the Council office"

Nowhere does it mention a District Advancement person sitting on a Star or
Life BOR. This is not the same for Eagle though.

Charles
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Violation of Netiqutte (was: Stan - Hatred is unbecoming)
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:09:27 GMT

In article <ardq09m@lynx.unm.edu> anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:

>Just for readers clarification, Stan's email to me begins the line
>with a % sign.  Tim's original has >>>, Stan's reply has >>
>and my reply to Stan has >.  I know most of you will realise this, but
>this is just a clarification.  

As all you netnews readers see from the header of Dominick's posting,
what he did was to take private email from me and, without my
knowledge or consent, publically post it.  Such behavior is a total
violation of netiquette, and Dominick knows it.

I especially resent the use of the word "hatred" in the subject of
Dominick's unauthorized posting of the email.  I simply do not agree
with certain gay rights agenda assumptions.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca (Jason Michael Farmer)
Subject: Re: National Rover Moot
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:04:18 GMT

Thanks for posting this.  At the provincial roundtable meeting I was at, this
was discussed, but we had very little information.

Jason Farmer
11th Sur-Del "Errant Knights" Rover Crew


-- 
Jason Farmer                 |  Daisemi'in rhhaensuriuu
jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca        |      meillunsiateve
Simon Fraser University      |           Rh'e Mnhei'sahe yie ahr'en:
Burnaby, British Columbia    |  
Canada                       |   Mnahe afw'ein qiuu;
                             |      rh'e hweithnaef
                             |           mrht Heis'he ehl'ein qiuu.
From: bob.kenyon@freddy.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Bob Kenyon) 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Backpacking
Date: 7 Nov 92 13:16:00 GMT
Reply-To: bob.kenyon@freddy.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Bob Kenyon) 
Distribution: world
Organization: Freddy's Place BBS - Edmonton, AB - 403-456-4241

Besides Scouting one of my hobbies is backpacking and hiking. If there
are any folks out there that would like information on doing so in the
Canadian Rockies (Jasper, Banff, ect.), please leave me a message.

If you're planning a trip, I can suggest good places to go, and how to
get permits, etc. I also have a good set of resources, and can suggest
the best guide books to use for reference.

Bob Kenyon
Training Coordinator
Area #4, Edmonton Region

---
 . SLMR 2.1 . "Have a better one!" The movie "Bladerunner"
                                                                                                                           
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: fogarty@sir-c.jpl.nasa.gov (Tim Fogarty)
Subject: Re: Coming Full Circle?
Organization: JPL, Space Imaging Radar Software Group
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 23:53:43 GMT


In article <BxFHB9.2LI@eis.calstate.edu>, ceichel@eis.calstate.edu 
(Charles L. Eichelberger) writes:
|>
|>fogarty@sir-c.jpl.nasa.gov (Tim Fogarty) writes:
|>> However, it is immorral for BSA to teach boys that gays are second class
|>> citizens, and fair game for hate and discrimination.
|>> 
|>Excuse me?! Just how does the BSA teach this? By exclusion? No, the BSA
|>does not teach that gays are second class citizens at all. About all the
|>reference made about gays that I have seen on a local, district and
|>council level has been that the BSA does not want gays in Scouting. No
|>other bashing at all. 
|>

Lets assume that you are a 14 or 15 year old boy, in scouting since you 
were 7.  And you come to the realization that you are gay.  You may or may
not still be a virgin, but you still know that you are gay.  Now you hear that 
BSA offical policy is that gays are not allowed.  What does this tell you ?
What does this do to your self esteem ?  What do you do ?  Quit scouting ?

--

One does not choose one's sexual orientation.  I knew that I was "different"
as early as the age of 7.  I have memories of feelings that I know know to
be expresions of my homosexuality.  I did not associate these feelings with
the word "homosexual" until I was in college.  However, now with the gay rights
movement in the news, if growing up today, Im sure I would put 2 and 2
together at a much younger age.  I have friends who knew that they were 
gay as early as the age of 12.

The point is that there are tens of thousands of boys in scouting today who
are homosexual, whether they know it or not, and whether they are virgins or
not.  Should a genetic or biological test for homosexuality be given to each 
11 year old prior to granting membership ?

|>Charles Eichelberger
|>ASM - Troop 119
|>Unit Comissioner
|>
|>
--
Tim Fogarty
Eagle Scout, 1977
Sys Man and Sys Admin for the EGSE in the POCC at JSC for SRL-1, STS-59
FOGARTY@SIR-C.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: rlosee@unlinfo.unl.edu (Robert Losee)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Coming Full Circle?
Date: 10 Nov 1992 16:20:06 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: unlinfo.unl.edu

anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:

>In article <1dbb77INNbfa@crcnis1.unl.edu> rlosee@unlinfo.unl.edu (Robert Losee) writes:
...

> Yes, and in certain places, (where I work for one, and which I support) 
>if there is one non-smoker, then the place is non-smoking if there is an 
>objection.  that is true instate facilities here in NM.  But that is a
>different situation.  There, you are talking about actually health risks,
>being lesbigay is not and does not pose a health risk to others.  But 
>even there, you are given the CHOICE to be in the room or not.  lesbigays
>don't even have the choice.  
...
>I don't see a problem here, I don't think passes made in a  camp are
>acceptable, straight, gay, etc...  But if it hasn't had much impact on
>them, then what is the problem?  I don't know what happened, so I 
>can't really comment, but I don't see how that would be any differently
>handled than a staff member of one sex making a pass at a staff member
>of the opposite sex.  
>>
>>I really mean that last sentence.  I'm generally in favor of letting 
>>units decide if they want to go co-ed, and certainly in such a setting
>>hetersexuals will be making passes at each other.  

>SO then in essence you're saying that it's a possibility you'd 
>support a possible trial of this type of policy?

Concerning females into all levels of a chartering organizations 
program yes I support that.  Not so much on such ideas as equality and
justice (I don't believe separate sex programs are necessary bad 
things), but more practical ones like its more convenient for harried 
parents to have their boys and girls going to one program instead of 
two.

Concerning homosexuals yes it's a possibility I'd support a possible
trial of this type of policy.  I however remain uncommitted at this
time feeling that all the issues aren't explored yet.  The
organization (BSA) was founded on moral straightness so it remains
interpreted that homosexuality violates this.   Interpretation is OK,
just as the Supreme Court has interpreted some right(s) to privacy
(at least as it concerns contraceptive use) even though it's not
specifically mentioned in the constitution; I support this.  But in 
the case of the BSA program I'm inclined to think this interpretation
should be delegated to the chartering organization (and parents) to
do this.  Again I reserve the right to change my mind as these 
discussions continue.

For the record, the "duty to God" is clearly a foundation to the 
organization and I believe the BSA has as much right to restrict 
membership based on its interpretation of this as the Roman Catholic 
church or Shriners do.  
--
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Robert D. Losee                 BITNET: ucas402@unlvm
University of Nebraska          Internet: rlosee@unlinfo.unl.edu
Lincoln NE  68588-0496          Phone: (402) 472-7663
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: John_Morgan@mindlink.bc.ca (John Morgan)
Subject: Australian Pen Pal Requested
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:13:43 GMT

The following is posted for one of my Scout as part of the Gold Citizen
Achievment Award.  Any response can be sent to me and I'll forward it to the
necessary party.  Thanks in advance.

November 9, 1992

        Hi my name is Jeremy Bieber.  I would like to communicate with a
scout from Australia.  I am a member of the 4th West Whalley Scout Troop in
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada.  I am 13 years old and live in a big blue
house.  I have blonde hair and am 5 feet 3 inches tall.  I wear braces and
the bands are blue.  I have a brother that is 10 years old.  I play soccer
ant the position I play is midfield.  My favorite basketball team is Chicago
Bulls.  My favorite basketball player is Micheal Jordan.  I am in band and I
have a nintendo game system and 5 video games for it.  I like to collect lots
of hockey cards.  In the summer I like to swim and go rollerblading.  I like
to read adventure, mystery and comic books.

Jermy Bieber, 4th West Whalley Troop, Fraser Valley Region
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada


John Morgan, 4th West Whalley Scouts, Fraser Valley Region, Surrey, BC,
Canada

--
######################################################################
#                        #                   ARMY                    #
#  John Morgan           #              Another fine game            #
#  a345@mindlink.uucp    #              By Milton Bradley            #
#                        #                 Ages 17 & up              #
########################################
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Sad News - Green Bar Bill is dead
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:09:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.nmdqmz#
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque


This is sad news.  I remeber growing up and reading his comics as 
well as articles by the man, and had the opportunity to meet him 
several years ago.  He will be missed.  

As the sun rises
so too it sets,
as the flower grows and blooms,
It shall eventually wither,

ANd yet these things 
Never Forgotten,
live on with us,
Within us.

Forever more.
DVZ...8/92 on the death of a friend from complications related to 
AIDS,  
I thought this also appropriate for Green Bar Bill.  He has 
touched millions, and in so doing will live forever.  

God Bless.


Dominick V. Zurlo
From: bob.kenyon@freddy.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Bob Kenyon) 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Scout Badges Collecting
Date: 7 Nov 92 13:08:00 GMT
Reply-To: bob.kenyon@freddy.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Bob Kenyon) 
Distribution: world
Organization: Freddy's Place BBS - Edmonton, AB - 403-456-4241

MNBK>Keywords:
MNBK>Hi, I want to know if there are some crazy "Scout badge collector" out the
MNBK> like to trade badges with me or if anyone who has some Scout badges and w
MNBK>ike to get rid of them, ps give me a reply.

MNBK>Thanx.
MNBK>(Hey, I was a girl scout too)
MNBK>Michelle Ng

No problemo. I think there are probably a lot of Scouters that would be
willing to swap badges. Any types in particular? By the way where are
you from?

Bob Kenyon
Training Coordinator
Area#4 Edmonton Region

---
 . SLMR 2.1 . My computxr works vxry wxll, xxcxpt for onx kxy.
                                                                          
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kdc5072@ultb.isc.rit.edu (K.D. Colagio)
Subject: Stan, Stan, Stan.....
Originator: kdc5072@ultb
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 00:19:59 GMT

I agree, Dominick (sorry if the spelling is wrong...I am starting from
scratch) should not have posted the mail without you being notified (and
bewarned now, any mail that I get that I feel deserves to be shown to the
group, I will post).

But, I can not say that I do not blame him. Especially with the content of
that mail, and you previous quote (which boils down to anyone that does not
tell a child that gay sex is wrong is a child abuser).

In the mail, and in that post, you have shown a lack of 
  1) intelligence
  2) education
  3) tolerance
  4) open mindedness

Not only that, but you have implied that anyone who does not educate their
children about same sex relationships (not being in them, but that they do
happen) is a child abuser.  This is not only slander, but since it is in a
preservable format, it is libel.

In addition, you have (in the mail to Dominick) at least implied (if not
blatantly stated) that people who live in communes, etc, (sorry, I do not
have a previous article that I am looking at...) are just as bad.

In other words, anyone who does not fit the into your little (and very
little at that) mold of the "perfect citizen".  Let me state here that if
the United States of America were filled with people like you, I and many
other people would leave the country.  Luckily, you are a
minority...actually, Thank GOD you are a minority.

As at least one other person has stated, I am glad that I do not have
children in your troop, I would move them to another.

Bigotry, self-rightousness, and a close minded attitude are not the
characteristics of a good scout.  In my opinion (and it is an opinion), this
describes you perfectly, and therefore, in my opinion, you are a not a good
scout.

And I have not decided if I am going to do this, but I am considering
sending a copy of that letter, along with a cover letter to national.  The
attitudes and ideas put across are worse than ANY that I have hear out of
the homosexual and bisexual culture, and I would be ashamed to have those
attitudes and be a member of an organization that is as great as the BSA can
be.

Flames will either be responded to in e-mail, or possibly posted...but that
is NOT very likely, and I will send mail notifying you that I posted it.


    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    =   Kevin Colagio...student at large - Bear code?  You think I   -
    -                aka                 -   know what that is???    =
    =       KDC5072@ultb.isc.rit.edu     -    B2/4 w g++ K s- h+ r   -
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Coming Full Circle?
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 01:43:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.223855.1504@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>The bottom lines on this whole discussion are-
>    1.	Homosexuality is immoral, and
>    2.  We have control over our behavior and the ability to know
>	right from wrong.
>The Scouting position on homosexuality is consistent with these
>points.

The scouting position on homosexuality covers orientation without behavior.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mayne@pi.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: Standards  (Was: More on God)
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 18:01:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.171513.14303@sei.cmu.edu> rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito) writes:
>
>In article <1992Nov5.000110.6050@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, William Mayne quotes:
>
>>>Declaration of Religious Principle
>
>>>..The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and
>>>the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the
>>>best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the
>>>growing members.
>
>...and then asks us:
>
>> So it is the BSA's policy to teach that atheists can't be good citizens?
>
>Maybe this is why we never resolve anything--The quoted text expresses that
>such a recognition is necessary to the best type of citizenship, which is
>merely an opinion of what attribute citizenship should have.  Is does not say
>that other opinions are invalid or that those with other opinions are not
>"good citizens", as you so twist it.  That material is an appeal and standard
>for membership.

Read it again. It implies exactly what I said it implies. "X is necessary
to Y" then without X you can't have Y. It further says that "the best type
of citizenship" is impossible for Buddhists and members of other religions
outside the Judaic/Christian/Islamic fold.

Bill Mayne

Newsgroups: rec.scouting