From: sphanda@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (surinder.phanda)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: WITHER PATRIOTISM ?
Summary: Truth about India
Date: 14 Oct 92 14:01:36 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <18727.2ad6d1c1@ecs.umass.edu>, rajain@ecs.umass.edu writes:
> In article <1992Oct9.123451.15698@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, sphanda@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (surinder.phanda) writes:
> > In article <1992Oct8.223436.19533@news.clarkson.edu>, rajat@sunny1.che.clarkson.edu (Rajat Kapoor) writes:
> >> 

[stuff deleted]

> >> 
> >> No self-respecting native can ever stab a country like that !
> > 
> > Why ever not?? Just because you are a native of a particular country
> > does not mean hard hitting truthful facts about it cannot be raised....
> > Take off the rose tinted glasses please!
> 
>   Awww! Please.......don't try to cover up for the *slanderous* remarks
>   made by people on SCI ! We are all grown ups here <I hope!>  and we all 
>   know the difference between "mud-slinging" and "hard-hitting-truthful-
>   facts". Truth *is* bitter, but we DO NOT deal with hard facets of Indian
>   society by making comments like <and I am quoting some posts on SCI from 
>   memory> "India sucks", "India is a dishonest country" <this is what Rajat
>   was probably refering to...)
>   

You're obiously not grow-up enough (yet!) to really deal with hard facts
about India. Maybe there is a more beautiful way of saying "India sucks"
or "India is a dishonest country", what difference does it make which way
it's put - the facts remain the same. I'd rather deal with stark reality 
than a glossed up version.

> > 
> >> 
> >> If one were to read between the lines of the utterings of such
> >> believers, the message is "India and those who choose to live
> >> there are damned... doomed to live in a cesspool of misery...! "
> > 
> > Well, are'nt they?? The MAJORITY (who do not have the comforts or haven
> > of a Western country) do live in a "cesspool of misery". They don't
> > have the luxury of making tough decisons about which private school
> > to send their kids.... or whether to change jobs and move into 
> > another (luxury) home....etc..
> 
>   If by "luxury" you are NOT implying towards the "gasoline-costs",
>   "apt. buildings", "customer service" and "coin machines for soda
>    and almost everything else", then I tend to agree with you here.
>   Yes! a common person in India IS suffering because he/she is does
>   NOT <because of financial or else society or some other constraints>
>   have the freedom of choice/decision in important aspects of his/her 
>   life (and no! by "decisions" I definitely am not refering to a 
>   decision involving whether to cook rice or chapati tonight>. I think
>   the point you mention, about school preferences for kids, job-choices
>   etc is a good one! But then again, we cannot go around saying that my
>   country is a "miserable one" !!! *THAT* is no way to face and rectify
>   the problems currently faced in India....is it? 
> 

You obviously accept that it's miserable, but perhaps would like it to
be put more glamourously......


> > 
[stuff deleted]

> 
> > 
> >> 
> >> US is a foster country, made great by people who adopted it. The first
> >> generation immigrants never abondoned their country, they revered it.
> > 
> > The U.S has always been considered a country of opportunity. It's where
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > a lot immigrants dreams came true, and continue to come true....
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>   Well said!!!!
> 
> 
> > People did'nt abandon it because it did so much for them. Unfortunatley
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>   However these very people *did* abondon the country which fed them and
>   provided them with unique identity <not a good word but can't think
>   of a better one right now> !! Ok, so people in India are very much
>   discontent and frustated with the "opportunity" (job) thing there 
>   <what with "merey chaachey ke bhateejey ke dost ki saalee kaa bhaai hai, 
>   toh zaraa "khayaal" rakhnaa"> but should WE <who come to THIS land of great
>   opportunities> abandon our own country because another country <and believe
>   me, it's *still* a foreign land otherwise if this country was truly meant
>   to provide opportunities to immigrants then why would there be incidents like
>   "Dot-busters" in New Jersey> *gave* something to us ??? It is a highly
>   erroneous statement that India didn't provide us with anything so we desert
>   it!! What about our culture, our traditions, our legends etc...?? Did we
>   get our India culture form USA ??? ......I don't think so!   
> 

That's precisely what we have done. We have abandoned India. Please be real,
there are Indians with American/British/French etc.. passports, I'm sure
they ALL have a dream to one day go back to India and help it's people...
when that day will be they can't say....they have kids, jobs to think of.
They might go back to retire - that'll be helping India a lot.
Don't be so paranoid. You don't have to desert your "culture" and "legends",
but you can be more questionable about them. We're so irritated by "dot
busters" or whatever, just think about the atrocities Indians face by each
other on a daily basis in India.....


> >> 
> >> On a personal side, I'll never take a woman who disvows her native
> >> land as my wife. Can't be trusted in life...
> > 
> > So you want an obedient woman that agrees with everything you say
> > and "knows her place" - typical!
> 
>   OOOooooooooooppps! Ms. Phanda, I think you are doing too much of "read
>   between the lines" cuz Rajat's <Kapoor :-)> statement is NOT a "typical"
>   M.C.Pig statement. All he is saying is that <in HIS opinion> he would not
>   trust a person <in this case his to-be-spouse and yes! a woman :-)> who
>   "disvows" her country ! No! No! No! he did NOT say "who should broom, and
>   cook and take care of kids" and he did NOT say that he expects his partner
>   to be a dedicated non-US-resident-type Indian, but someone who does not
>   "DISVOW" her country because that <in a way> implies unreliability as
>   part of that person's character :-) 
> 

All I can say is that guys who use the test of "patriotism" to determine
trust are living in broom cupboards and probably will continue to do so 
in fact they'll do India a bigger favour if they don't go back!

Surinder Phanda


>   Interpret my comments any way you prefer to, but they were neither meant
> to "flame" your comments nor to impose my opinion on you <or anyone else>.
> I loved this discussion and would look forward to your response !!
> 
> > 
> >> 
> >> Rajat Kapoor 
> > 
> > Ms Surinder Phanda
> >    AT&T Network Systems UK Ltd
> >    Malmesbury.
> 
> Rajat Jain <no! I ain't related to Rajat Kapoor!!>
> 
> Department of Industrial Engg. and Operations Research
> University of Massachusetts/Amherst
>  
> Email: rajain@sml3.ecs.umass.edu
>        rajain@ecs.umass.edu
>