HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: An illuminative observation of Richard Feynman about ethnic groups
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 15:13:17 GMT

In his interesting and amusing book "What do _you_ care what other
people think" Richard Feynman tells an anectode that happened to
him in a trip he made to Trinidad. I will paraphrase the story
with a couple of short quotes from the book. The name of the
chapter is "Getting ahead".

A local taxi-driver in Port of Spain, the main city in Trinidad,
offered to take him to see the beautiful things in that town.
Feynman insisted that he would like to travel to the _poor_
neighborhoods in town rather then the standard tourist attraction.
The driver took him first to an Indian neighborhood and stopped in
front of a virtually empty house. He tells:

    There were practically nothing inside. A man was sitting on the
    front steps. "You see that man?" he said. "He has a son studyin'
    medicine in Maryland".


The driver picked some women from the neighborhood, so that Feynman
could see for himself. They were poor women with tooth decay etc. The
taxi driver then told him:

    " Now, Professor, here is my question: you see the Indian people
    are just as poor, and sometimes even poorer than the Negro people,
    but they are getting somewhere, somehow-this man sent his son
    to college; those women are building up a sewing business. But my
    people aren't getting anywhere. why is that ?"

After thinking briefly Feynman answered:

    "There is a long tradition behind life in India that comes from
    religion and philosophy that is thousands of years old. And although
    these people are not in India, they still pass on those traditions
    about what's important in life - trying to build for the future and
    supporting their children in the effort - which have come down to them
    for centuries".
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca (Ken Mcdonald)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:31:47 GMT


>>> (from a previous article)
[bits about how no selection process is "fair"] . . .   Why pick this
criterion [gender] as being the worst?  . . . Why dismiss criterion for hiring under-
represented individuals, which IMO has plausible arguments in its
favor?   

You are unfairly comparing affirmative action with some ideal, non-
existent perfect system of "fairness and squareness".  I would find
it more instructive to compare it with what currently exists.
<<<

The difference between affirmative action and previous hiring systems
is that, in theory at least, previous systems (the ones that AA seeks
to overturn), are at least BASED on the principle of hiring the
most competent individual.  We all know that they seldom worked
this way, but the principle was there which, among other things, meant
the the grossest violations of the idea of fair hiring could be 
justifiably castigated.

AA, however, legitimizes hiring on the basis of qualities other than
the ability to do the job.  This will cause extreme feelings of 
resentment, anger, and frustration among the people adversely affected
by the practice (as well it should), as well as among many people who
only imagine AA has affected them.

More importantly, over the long term AA will cause a serious erosion
of belief in general societal principles of fairness.  The result is
almost invariably that "anything I can get by any means I can get"
syndrome to which people revert under pressure.  (Surely if follows
that if people are treated unfairly by others, they aren't going to
bother trying to be fair in turn?)  Unfortunately, societies tend
to suffer greatly from the increase of such attitudes, because of
the resources that are devoted to defense instead of production.
(i.e. individual defense against the society they live in.)

Acutually, I could write a thesis on this.  I'd better stop before I
get started . . .

I really do wonder, though, how anyone in their right mind could
possibly think that past injustice can be corrected by current
injustice.  These people haven't taken much basic philosophy or history,
I think . . .

Ken McDonald
mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca
From: len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens)
Subject: Re: Asian-American success (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions)
Organization: Dept of Math, Northwestern Univ
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 14:53:05 GMT

In article <5515@dove.nist.gov> gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan) writes:
>
>As a followup to Andrew Chin's excellent reminder not to lump all
>asian-americans together or to label them all with a blanket ``model
>minority'' label, let me add that Harvard was discovered about ten
>years ago to be discriminating _against_ well qualified asian
>americans.  In other words, they felt that if they admitted
>undergraduates on the basis of merit, they would have too many asian
>americans, so they gave preference to white students over
>better-qualified asian americans to promote ``diversity'' of the
>student body. I did not notice any white Harvard students protesting
>_this_ form of affirmative action.

Let's try to be fair to Harvard.   The Department of Education investigated
this charge about Harvard.  They discovered that Harvard did in fact
discriminate (in a statistical sense) against Asian-Americans.   However,
they attributed this discrimination not to direct action by the institution
against Asian-Americans but to the fact that it gave preference to
children of alumni and to athletes.  Since Asian-Americans were not
highly represented in those groups, they were in effect discriminated
against.  However, the Department of Education found that Harvard's
standards were rational, so they did not require them to change them.
Perhaps the reasoning was that 20 or 30 years from now the Asian-Americans
will get their due when a much higher percentage of children of alumni
will belong to that group.  Of course, the children won't have to work
as hard for this benefit.  Once, Harvard and other universities
discriminated agains Jewish Americans in the same way, but today
the children of the Jews they admitted are presumably benefiting from
the policy.

It should be pointed out that almost all private colleges and universities
do in fact give preference to children of alumni and to athletes.
It has been repeatedly pointed out, but generally ignored, that preference
for children of alumni is in effect a powerful long term kind of
`affirmative action' which has much more significant effects that
the usual kind of affirmative action reserved for African-Americans
and other minority groups.  However, critics of the latter form of
affirmative action seldom deal with this point.   There are also other
kinds of selective admissions procedures which have adverse effects on
particular groups, but it is usually only those involving race that
get much discussion.

Leonard Evens      len@math.nwu.edu      708-491-5537
Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208
From: lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 04:00:19 GMT

>Several years ago, I was applying for grad school at, among other
>places, Princeton. In mid-April, I hadn't heard, one way or another,
>I spoke with the department secretary, who told me that I would be
>getting the thin envelope, i.e., that I had not been accepted. But
>before that, we had the following conversation:
>Secretary:	"OK, what's your name?"
>Me:		"Steve Masticola."
>Secretary:	"Oh, _you're_ the one with the _unusual_ name!"
>
>
>I know that Princeton tends to be theoretical, 

Understatement of the year!

>and I'm a systems
>person. And I wanted to study some things in which their department is
>weak. 

That's probably why you weren't accepted.  It's not a large school.

>But that "unusual name" bit has stuck in my mind. And I know it
>was just a secretary talking, but I can't help thinking if my name was
>too unusual for Princeton to admit me...

Some people at Princeton are very open minded and fair.  However,
there are too many others who still can't cope with anyone not
being a White Anglo Saxon Protestant.  Some staff members at
Princeton make some pretty wierd comments. (The office administrators
in my department aren't like that, but a couple of librarians have
been pretty wierd recently indepartments other than mine...)
From: gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: New Topic
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:38:08 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

I've noticed that there is very little activity on this group lately,
and I think it's probably because the fabricant stuff has driven
everybody away.  Will you fabricant people please let it rest.  It
really doesn't serve a purpose to rehash one guy's career.  Why not
move it to alt.homicide.warranted or someplace where it can be better
appreciated.

I am graduating soon with a ph.d. in c.s., and I was wondering what
was the best way to go about possibly getting a post-doc?  I was badly
discouraged during last year's academic job hunt, and I may want to
change areas.  I have heard that there are only about 100 post-doc
spots for the entire field of C.S. (which has about 1000 graduates per
year).  Has anyone taken a post-doc in the USA?  What area was it in?
How competitive is the post-doc search process?  What is the best way
to go about finding such a position?

Don Gillies - gillies@cs.uiuc.edu - University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign


-- 
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 15:55:02 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep13.024625.19415@msc.cornell.edu> hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,) writes:
>From article <92Sep13.000934.24022@acs.ucalgary.ca>, by bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens):
>[...]
>> 
>> The public debt is largely domestic, even in copuntries such as
>> Brazil or the United States that carry a large foreign debt.  It is
>> also typically much larger than the foreign debt.  To default would
>> actually mean that the government would actually decide that things
>> like treasury bills will no longer be repaid.
>> 
>
>With the typical strategy of non-payment being hyperinflation of the 
>currency.

I don't think that's quite correct.  Or rather, put it this way: this
works only once.  The typical situation where there is hyperinflation
is that the nominal interest rates are high enough to cover inflation.

Hyperinflation is a disguised tax, not on the rich who hold part of
the debt, but on the poors who keep their paycheck in cash.

But I wonder what this thread got to do with science.careers?

Luc B
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: me@csri.toronto.edu (Daniel R. Simon)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:00:46 GMT

In article <11SEP199216150518@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>The other funny thing here is the concept that you are being screwed 
>for the sins of your ancestors.  I guess that is one way of looking at
>it, but then you are getting screwed for lots of sins of your
>ancestors.  Maybe you would have gotten that job if your parents had
>been richer and you could have afforde to go to Harvard instead of
>X State. To me, the concept of affirmative action is not to punish
>the majority for the sins of their ancestors, but to help those who
>have not had access to all of the opportunities that the majority
>had.  There was an excellent post here today that spoke to that issue.

Of course, if that were the true goal of "affirmative action", then
one might expect to see "affirmative action" programs designed to
estimate the actual "opportunities" available to the individuals, and
treat them accordingly.  Instead, we have programs designed to
dispense favours to all members of certain politically favoured racial
and ethnic groups, and to women, and to all members of those groups
equally, regardless of any member's actual "opportunities" or lack of
them.  If a similar scheme were implemented to compensate merit rather
than lack of opportunity, then people would be hired based on the
average ability of their ethnic group, race or gender.  Fortunately,
few people are willing to attempt to construct sophistries to defend
*that* sort of practice.


"There *is* confusion worse than death"		Daniel R. Simon
			     -Tennyson		(me@theory.toronto.edu)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:59:17 GMT

I can present the other side of the coin.  I have education in both
engineering and music, and this is the story in music composition.
To my knowledge, there is only one (currently untenured) woman with
a faculty position in composition at any Ivy League school.  Now
look at the conservatories: New England, Juillard, Mannes, Manhattan,
Eastman, Indiana, Cleveland Institute - still no women composers on
the faculty.  One at SanFrancisco Conservatory.  I have counted
only about 25 women nationally down the level of not-too-well-known
state universities having faculty positions in my field.  There are
about five to seven composers on a typical university faculty.
Something really has to be done to rectify this.  

The patterns develop even before the job serach starts - the
woman's self considence is attacked and therefore she produces below
her potential.  Or she suffer harrassment, or is isolated ...
Or she chooses a more conservative adviser because the avant
garde adviser mistreats her...

In engineering it used to be possible to clain that there
weren't qualified women; in arts and humanities that's
complete bunk.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: andersmh@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANDERSON  MIKE HOWARD)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 23:19:02 GMT

As an addendum to my previous post I would like to add
another comment.  There seems to be a lot of effort being 
expended as to how to recruit more women into physics.  I
think there are plenty of women in physics.  The problem
is there are WAY too many men.  As I see it, we need to
reduce the number of men in physics by about 95% and
keep the numbers of women the same.  Affirmative action
won't be neccesary any longer, because then just about
everyone will be able to get a position somewhere, and
in the right proportions.  

Mike

"Does anyone really like vi?" 
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Affirmative action does not mean quotas
Date: 15 Sep 92 21:49:00 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep15.202328.28181@msc.cornell.edu>, hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,) writes...
>From article <lba5etINNb4p@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, by aspasia@usability.Eng.Sun.COM (Lisa Louise Davis):
>[...]
>> 
>> 
>> My understanding of affirmative action is very slightly different:  If two
>> candidates both meet the minimum requirements for the job, then the minority
>> candidate should be selected.  (This is the definition presented a few years 
>> ago in a sociology seminar.)
>> 
>> The distinction is subtle, but significant.  In effect, the best candidate
>> for the job isn't always selected, but no unqualified candidate is selected.
>> 
>> Lisa Davis
> 
>Yes, I think this is typically how AA is applied, with most of the wrangling
>generally over what the minimum requirements should be.
> 
>Example.  A certain fire department was having trouble attracting 'enough'
>female firefighters.  Solution, make the physical requirement pass/fail.
>Before this an applicant would take the physical and the written test and
>they would be combined in some way to narrow the field.  Now, all that
>is needed is the certain minimum physical standards.  
> 
>I just hope whoever is being dragged out of the burning building is not
>above whatever weight they decided was minimum.
> 
>SEH



I think this is a good point that I certainly have been glossing over, but
perhaps has led to some misunderstandings on the subject.  That is, since
we have been talking about science research careers, I have been addressing 
the question of the application of AA to university (and to a somewhat 
lesser extent, industrial) Ph.D. hires.  You can look at a number of my
previous posts where I try to explain in some detail how things are done
at my university (and at a number of other universities based on studies
that I have seen from them.)  

However, that is not to say that AA is applied the same way in other places
for other types of hires.  Your point about firefighters is correct.  This
same type of standard also applies to lots of other governmental type
jobs.  To be honest, I haven't thought about these types of hirings as
much as I've thought about the issue of minority and women Ph.D.
scientists, so I really don't have a strong opinion here.  (A loud hooray
springs up from many portions of the net!   8-)  )   

But, I still think that the proper application of AA at the university
level as I have described before is appropriate and needed.  We should not
confuse that with other hirings and other ways people apply the AA
concept to those jobs.

Joseph S. Merola
Department of Chemistry
Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU)

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 00:41:15 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.212127.8328@cs.cornell.edu>, karr@cs.cornell.edu (David Karr) writes:

  (on my comments about higher dropout rate at some Ivy League college
   of affirmative action candidates)
 
> There are other possibilities as well.  Just because Princeton has an
> affirmative action program does not mean the "preferred" students
> don't end up facing higher hurdles to actually get through.  I
	.
	.
> I'm not sure why we should therefore assume that the student's natural
> "ability" is less, in any case.

  Point taken - even if the students have the same natural abilities, they 
may not be able to show them because of systemic racism.  But this seems
to be an admission that affirmative action, insofar as it only addresses
the admission of students or the hiring of faculty, may be a failure. 
 
> >  Thus extra preferential treatment is necessary to get them
> >to graduate, and then to get jobs, and so the process perpetuates
> >itself.
> 
> Only if your only solution is to lower standards.  You could instead
> put effort into extra training and other support in order to improve
> the students and make them more competitive.  

  I agree that these other techniques are much better than lowering 
standards, and I heartily agree with them.  Beating the system within 
its own skewed rules carries a lot of natural appeal.

> Counterexample: I am sitting in my chair.  The force of gravity is
> tending to make me fall.  The chair is opposing this force.  The chair
> and all other objects involved (building, Earth, etc.) are quite
> stable.

  This isn't a counterexample.  The force of gravity is drawing you and 
the Earth together, with your accelerations towards each other being 
proportional to your mass ratio.  The huge differential in mass is why 
you think the Earth is "stable".  If forces didn't affect the Earth, 
then it would constitute a counterexample to your original claim that 
objects can be balanced by applying forces.

>In any case, you misinterpreted the analogy.  

  Yes, I did.  But since the posting it was directed at was talking 
about a conflict of opportunities, perhaps this misunderstanding 
is...understandable?

-Darrell.
From: merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:08:00 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <21929@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, debray@cs.arizona.edu (Saumya K. Debray) writes...
>merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
> 
> 
>> Back to the idea of affirmative action, the "qualities" of gender or
>> ethnic background can indeed be a valid consideration.  
> 
>This seems to be a leap of faith.  I see little relationship between
>the structure of one's reproductive organs, or the amount of melanin
>in the skin, and the quality of one's research or teaching.  In
>general, I see no reason why non-technical criteria should be used
>to judge suitability for technical duties ("I'm sorry, we can't
>offer you a position in our lab, your moustache isn't quite the right
>color.")
>-- 
>Saumya Debray
>Dept. of Computer Science, University of Arizona, Tucson
>debray@cs.arizona.edu


Whoa!  If you are going to quote and say that I am simply making a 
leap of faith, then make sure you quote my entire article.  I made
the point in that article that in terms of example and mentorship
based on the percentage of female graduates and undergraduates
in my program that a valid case can be made for making extra 
efforts to recruit a female faculty member.  I think it can be
very demoralizing (and has been shown to be so) that female
students get an impression that they aren't as good as the 
males since all of their professors are men.  I don't want to
go into all of the intricacies of the argument here, and you can
certainly argue with my point, but make sure you don't trivialize
my point by incompletely quoting it.

Now, if anyone tells me that they have hired an unqualified 
candidate because of gender or race, then I will be the first to
say that they were stupid.  But, as my first post tried to point
out, there are lots of things that enter into the "qualification
equation".

Joseph S. Merola
Department of Chemistry
Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU)


Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: ljones@utkvx3.utk.edu (Jones, Leslie Lamont)
Subject: Re: Montreal news of Fabricant 1
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 02:20:00 GMT

In article 659, beigel-richard@CS.YALE.EDU (Richard Beigel) writes

>In article <4877@daily-planet.concordia.ca>, >adam@concour.cs.concordia.ca
(Adam Steele) writes:
>|> Fabrikant had asked many people at Concordia - including the rector,
>|> the dean, and his chairman - to sign his gun permit (actually the
>|> permit to transport his gun).  It seems that this was one of his
>|> intimidation tactics.

>The idea that following required legal procedure is an intimidation
>tactic is fascinating.  Can you elaborate on this?

I'll elaborate for him. Fabrikant, unshaven and disheveled, enters your office
without knocking. He creeps up to your desk, silently. "What?!?!?!
Oh, it's you, Fabrikant! Wh-wh-what do you want?"

"Oh, nothing really. (circling behind you) I just wanted (pant, pant) you to
sign (drooling) my GUN PERMIT!!!!!! BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or at least, that's the way Adam apparently envisioned it. I don't know. 
I wasn't there.

Leslie Lamont Jones
ljones@utkvx.utk.edu 

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers