HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 08:24:01 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Nov18.163904.22197@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
marlatt@spot.Colorado.EDU (Stuart W. Marlatt) writes:
>This is an interesting debate, and brings to mind some retorical situations
>I've considered (and maybe more fodder for Eugene's Turing Test).
>
>1. You are a research biologist, and discover a highly contagious virus
>   which will result in infertility in all of humanity. Do you release it?

I will add these if you want Stuart, but these are a little different
from the other questions in the "test."  BTW: I showed Marvin Minsky some
of the r.b. collection, and he found them interesting.
Minsky is the closest man alive I know who consider a real Turing test.

>2. You are a research biologist, and discover a highly contagious virus
>   which will result in infertility in about half the people it infects.
>   Do you release it?

I don't regard these phrased as serious questions.  Their format is such that
no 'sane' person would consider it.  Biologists don't just discover and
release.  This is akin to "public health in reverse," i.e. biological warfare,
a Mission Impossible episode.  No problem with 4-5.

>3. Smallpox has been largely destroyed - should the virus be given
>   endanged species status? (Would an infected person then be denied
>   treatment?)

Now this is a good question (if not backcountry).  Only an uninformed person
would make the knee jerk reaction to destroy the final stocks.  Actually,
I think the point is moot, I think they did it already (I can't remember
the time table, one could call the CDC).

>4. You become injured on a remote, solo climbing trip, and find yourself
>   trapped on a high ledge. You cannot expect rescue for many weeks. A
>   small seep provides you with water, but you ran out of food several
>   days ago. You have an opportunity to kill the a condor...
>
>5. A certain small cave contains a rare subspecies of salamader, known
>   nowhere else in the world. a) The entire population in the cave is
>   destroyed when the small entrance is blocked by a careless bulldozer
>   operator cutting a logging road. b) The entire population in the cave
>   is destroyed when the entrance collapses after an exceptionally
>   heavy thunderstorm. Remark on differences between a and b. The cave
>   salamander fills a dead-end ecological niche - the survival or loss
>   of the cave ecosystem will have no impact on even the local surface
>   ecosystem. Does this in any way affect previous remarks?

Greg Stock (an unemployed biologist) wrote The Book of Questions and
follow ons [making some money].  Some of these are suitable.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:42:56 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <Nov19.184530.35097@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <10797@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:

>>Death rate now exceeds birth rate, at least in the U.S.

>Being caught up in the parts, we fail to see the whole.

Or have you considered that looking at only the increasing
population is not seeing the whole?  By looking beyond that I see
that there are forces which are chaningin our world.  These forces
are primarily technological and I don't claim to be able to see
perfectly where they are taking us.  However I think it is safe to
say that the world 100 years from now will be much different from
that of today, and population trends are likely to be a major part
of that change.

The technology of the industrial revolution combined with that of
medicine to allow a tremendous increase in population.  Earth now
supports many more people than was possible without this technology.
I think we are on the verge of another change in technology which
will probably reverse this trend.  This will be caused by (1) the
relatively widespread availibility of contraception combined with
(2) a growing ability of parents to provide for their old age without
needing to have 10-12 children to assure that.  True the second of
these forces is not yet in place but I think we are going that way.
If we help these 2 forces along we will be much more effective at
reducing population.

I must say, however, that I am less optimistic about an actual
reduction in our use of natural resources.  I suspect that as we
reduce the population pressures we will tend to each want more and
more.  It is quite likely that our consumption will continue to
increase even if population should decrease.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:38:46 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <27614@oasys.dt.navy.mil> oreagan@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Oreagan) writes:
>In rec.backcountry, trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>!Christian sentiments asside, the loss of a snake is a tragedy.  The
>!loss of a human is insignificant, or possibly a blessing.  (This all
>
>This self deprecation has always annoyed me.  The snake surely doesn't
>think ITS demise is more desirable than YOURS.  But if you truly feel
>that way,  Goodbye.

Ah, I was waiting for the flames to ignite.  After all, you can't
simply toss Christian sentiments aside, in a Christian culture.
(Even the athiest reader's views are likely a product of this
Christian Milieu.)

Here's a question:  Is a single human life worth more than the lives
of all the snakes in the world?  How about all the snakes plus all the
mice?  Yes?  How about the snakes plus the mice plus all the chimpanzees?
We laugh at those who once thought the earth was the center of the
universe, yet we still believe humanity to be the center of the biosphere.

The fact that the snake doesn't "think" implies only that the snake
isn't guilty of stupidity.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Dennis Chamberlin)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cat mistakes sleeping bag for litterbox
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:49:25 GMT
Reply-To: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1ejd3oINN4qp@agate.berkeley.edu> map@violet.berkeley.edu (Pollen Lab;103 ESB;38108;;NZ29) writes:
>
>  Put a tennis shoe
>in the dryer with the bag, and dry it really thoroughly (not too hot though)
>to eliminate clumping.


Check the dryer temperature by feeling the bag a few times during the dry 
cycle. The temp. controllers regularly fail, and the last time I dried a
bag at a laundromat, I damn near cooked it even though the control was set
to *low*.


Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem. NOT!
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:28:51 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Nov18.123756.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu> cvakgaaq@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
>In article <Nov18.190826.60351@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
>> To the contrary, it is the most important issue facing the future
>> of "backcountry."  Those who've seen their favorite backcountry
>> haunts ruined or being ruined understand the import.
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> -Wayne Trzyna
>>  trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
>
>
>
>
>	Who gave you title to your "favorite" bit of backcountry?

I don't see any reference my favorite backcountry in the quotation above.
In fact, I was referring to YOUR'S.  If you don't want to protect it then
fine.  Bill Clinton is planning to build a highway right to it, in fact.
And there will be a 7/11 store, and a gas station, and...

> I'll bet someone else claims you ruined it when you came along and used it. 

I did.

>The last time I looked, the "National" lands existed for the "enjoyment of all
>Americans", or are you more American than others? Or do you just enjoy it more?

Again, it's OUR backcountry.  If all Americans prefer to build a Disneyland,
then who am I to stand in their way?  Nobody!  So let's throw away the rubbers
and diaphrams and bring on the bulldozers.  Then again, I know at least some
of the readers of this newgroup, prefer backcountry.

>Can I lick your feet? 

Whatever turns you on.  On second thought, no.

>Can I please just exist?

Sure.  There is a 300 sq ft hovel reserved for you in downtown Tokyo.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: aw1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Andrew Wargo)
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem. NOT!
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:16:58 GMT



idiot. The only civilized word that comes to mind. I doubt very seriously
he was referring to the nature-conscious use of backcountry.  I personally
could chew my packframe when I see trash, or misused switchbacks, or burned
areas that shouldn't be when I'm in the backcountry.  Considering that I'm
a large percentage Native American, and an Eagle Scout, I am aware of the
fact that National Lands exist for all to use, but when someone misuses them
and protests that it's their land too, it's as idiotic as convicted felons
demanding the rights of citizenship.

--
Regnat Populus!  | aw1@ra.msstate.edu | kith-kanan@rhostshyl.cit.cornell.edu
The People Rule! | awargo@nyx.cs.edu  | Kithan @Soucon | Pax Christi
                 |                    |                | Peace of Christ
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: 19 Nov 92 19:45:26 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1992Nov19.165450.4985@brtph560.bnr.ca> jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com (JB) writes:

>                             Do you agree that all countries,
>whether developed or not, contribute to the usage and thus the
>destruction of the eco-system?  If so, then this should be handled on a
>global level, the US included.

Well, yes.  Unfortunately we have no general agreement as to what
form our global actions should take.  Some seem to think we should
just give massive resources to undeveloped countries (a serious
mistake in my opinion).  Others that we should simply tell them how
to manage their economies (an option *not* well received in the
target countries).  Of course there are a lot of options in between
these extremes.  Until we can get some sort of general agreement in
this area I think we should do what we can (usually at the local
level since that is where we actually have the ability to do
something).  Of course where we can help out in undeveloped countries
we should do so (eg. help them find a way to survive without cutting
down forests as fast as we are cutting them here).
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 18:08:28 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <15397@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com>
tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
>As a Christian, I view man as the steward of a planet which is God's.
>We rightfully use what the world has when we do not materially diminish
>the ability of the world to provide for life: we abuse our stewardship
>when we do materially diminish the ability of the world to provide for
>life.  Since overpopulation is currently impacting the ability of the
>world to provide for life, for example, overpopulation is a serious
>concern.  The fact that a lot of Christians don't subscribe to this (or
>non-Christians for that matter) doesn't make such concerns "anti-
>Christian".

I recommend the chapter in Nash's The Rights of Nature entitled
The Greening of Religion.  Interesting reading.  But then so are
the chapters on the Green of Science and Greening of Politics.
The stewartship view is a recent one and how it developed is interesting
itself.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			3 down 1 to go.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: lstarrit@dante.nmsu.edu (Larry Way Starritt)
Subject: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:11:40 GMT


I would like suggestions on what should be in a Backpacker's
first-aid kit.

Thanks
Larry
lstarrit@nmsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bmoss@grinch.sim.es.com (Brent "Woody" Moss)
Subject: Re: Trip Report: Guns n Chainsaws
Keywords:  ASS HOLE
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 17:56:17 GMT

IF I camped out in the boonies to get away from
people like you, who just can't stand to camp
away from other people, and you came and
camped next to me as you described, then your 
new truck probably wouldn't have looked or ran
much like new any more come morning.

		Your furry friend,

                 MR. WOODY ! 

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis)
Subject: Re: Mitchell Caverns!
Organization: University of Virginia Health Sciences Center
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:12:41 GMT

In article <470001@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com> tonyz@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Tony Zugates) writes:
}                   Stalagmites and Stalagtites (remember which was 
}which?) abound ...

It's stalaCtites and stalagmites.  You can remember the "C" is for 
ceiling, where they are usually found.  The "g" is for ground.

"Stalactites stick tight, stalagmites might"

"As the mites crawl up, the tights crawl down"


--
       hang gliding mailing list: hang-gliding-request@virginia.edu 
     Galen Hekhuis  UVa Health Sci Ctr (804)982-1646 gjh@virginia.edu
                   We are the Cro-Magnon of the future!
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: Jeff Wishnie <jwishnie@taligent.com>
Subject: Re: hiking clubs??
X-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 16:07:33 GMT
Organization: Taligent, Inc.
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d3
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 00:10:30 GMT

>but they are defunct now.  Not enough interest in leading trips. 

You should contact OEP (Outdoor Education Program) at Stanford. They run
a course each quarter in outdoor skills that includes 4 trips a quarter.
If you just want to find a group of people to hike with, meeting the OEP
instructors is a good place to start.

- Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 00:37:09 GMT

Gee Watson, you sure can do a cross-post.  Trying to stur up the water?


In article <JMC.92Nov20135129@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>I think public opinion is unbalanced in the matter of caribou vs. wolves.

I don't disagree on the C/W issue, but I would not use the "vs."
Too anthropomorphic.

>What is needed is a movie Dances with Caribou or a remake of Bambi
>with Bambi as a caribou whose mother is killed by a wolf.

The film was done.  It's the adaption of Mowat's "Never Cry Wolf."
A fine film.*  The character Dances with Caribou near the end.
Bambi had a sequel in Bambi Meets Godzilla and Bambi lost there
(Oh, I'm sorry for posting the spoiler...).
For the life of me I can't understand why Dances with Wolves gets to
much press other netters refer to it as well.  I thought it was a
marginal film, it had very little to do with wolves (one wolf, one).
At least, Charles Martin Smith played a biologist in Mowat's film.

>John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
>He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Hey, I will defend your right to get Computer Science funding for AI,
but that doesn't mean we agree issues of environmental biology.

>Smite the foe.  Can't we get a few guides to post too?

Really?  I used to guide.  I will have the legal paperwork.
What would you like to know?  Did this count?

*) I feel strongly about one thing wrong with the film, but it's only
because I read the book later.  Gad, nearly a week pass by, and no one
mentioned this.  Amazing.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			3 down 1 to go.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: Guide info
Reply-To: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:46:13 GMT

In article <Bxv5BL.BoL@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Michael S. Ratliff) writes:
>I am looking for information on how to become a guide.  What does it take for
>one to call oneself a guide?  Are there any books that would help? 
(etc.)

WHY would anyone WANT to be a guide?  The mind boggles...

"BUT"...if you're really interested, Exum in Jackson, Wyo. runs a "Guide
School", and so does N.O.L.S. in Lander.

In order to "call oneself a guide", you must be willing to work for no
pay (a "reputable" mountain school in Colorado makes it a policy NOT
to pay guides), work with jaded executives who have always "wanted to
try this" and are en-route to bungee jumping, sacrifice ALL your
personal climbing time, etc., etc..  No damn fun.

Of course, the BEST ones do get paid -- Jay Smith, Peter Croft,
Sandy East, Charlie Fowler, et al. are exceptionally good climbers
and make a good fraction of their existance off "guiding".  

Incidently, I think the Exum and NOLS courses are $$$$$$ (?).

"FUCK N.O.L.S.!"
       -- Anonymous Moutaineering School Owner.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: fuzzy@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Fuzzy)
Subject: jerkey summary
Keywords: first bit...
Organization: Purdue University
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:31:25 GMT


This is the first part of my jerkey summary...a few people had asked
for the recipies that I got.   I didn't get very many responses, but
thanks to those of you who were kind enough to reply.  Special thanks
to Bob (you know who you are) who sent me a bunch of recipies.  Anyway,
I'm going to post all of them, but only a few at a time, to build the
anticipation.  Since all the methods are essentially the same, I'll 
put the method in first, followed by the various ingredient lists.

For measurements, tblsp = tablespoon and tsp =  teaspoon.

General jerkey method:

All recipies use 1 lb lean meat, thinly sliced. (3/16-1/4 in thick)

In a small glass bowl, combine all ingredients except meat.  Stir to mix
well.  Place meat 3-4 layers deep in a container, spooning sauce mixture
over each layer.  Cover tightly and marinate 6-12 hours in the 'fridge,
stirring occasionally and keeping the mixture covered.

I can't really help with drying instructions, but i'd say somewhere between
7-10 hours, depending on how you like it.

_The Recipies_

Mild Mexican Jerky
1 tsp salt               1/2 tsp crushed oregano
1/4 tsp pepper           1 tsp paprika
1 tsp chili powder      
1/2 tsp garlic powder      

Hawaiian Jerky
1 tsp salt                1 crushed garlic clove
1 tsp ground ginger       1/4 cup pineapple juice
1 tbs brown sugar         1/4 cup soy sauce
1/4 tsp papper
1/8 tsp cayenne pepper

Korean Jerkey
1/2 tsp salt              1 tbs dry sherry (if desired)
1/4 tsp pepper            2 tbs sesame seeds
2 tsp sugar               1/4 cup soy sauce
1 tsp MSG (if desired)

Hot & Tangy Jerky 
1 tsp salt                2 cloves crushed garlic
1/4 tsp cracked pepper    2 tbs A-1 sauce
1/4 tsp cayenne pepper    3 tbs Worcestershire sauce
1 tsp onion powder        1/2 tsp paprika

Middle Eastern Jerky
1 tsp salt                1/4 tsp turmeric
1/8 tsp pepper            1/8 tsp ground cumin
1--1/2 tsp coriander      1/4 tsp chili powder
1/4 tsp ground ginger

Fiesta Jerky
1 tsp salt                1 tsp onion powder
1/4 tsp pepper            1/4 tsp ground cumin
1 tbs chili powder        1 tsp garlic powder


That's it for this post.  Still 7 recipies left to go, but my 
fingers are getting tired.  And it's dinner time.  The only 
recipie I've tried so far is the one for Hot & Tangy jerky, and
it's pretty good.  hopefully I'll be able to try the rest of them 
when I have more time.

Hope you enjoy 'em.
Again, thanks to those who responded, and special thanks to Bob for
sending all the recipies I'm working on posting.  

Fuzzy
--

Passion:  A feeling you feel when you feel you are about to feel a 
          feeling you've never felt before.

fuzzy@sage.cc.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: dsheehan@whsun1.wh.whoi.edu (Daniel Sheehan)
Subject: backcountry books
Organization: National Marine Fisheries Service - Woods Hole, MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 13:41:29 GMT

Did anyone mention 'The Lure of the Labrador Wild' by Dillon Wallace
(new edition after 1905 original pub.) and 'A Woman's Way Through Unknown
Labrador' by Mina Hubbard (only 1907 edition - still inprint but $73US).
Both of these are about the failed Hubbard expedition of c1903 and
Mina's c1906 trip to prove that her husband's idea (Goose Bay to Ungava Bay
by canoe) was possible.  An analysis of all of this was written more recently
in 'Great Hearts' which is on my list for the winter.

--
Daniel Sheehan			Oh Lord, Thy sea is so great
NOAA NMFS NEFSC			and my ship is so small
dsheehan@whsun1.wh.whoi.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:14:52 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <JEFFK.92Nov17103207@dosXX.med.utah.edu> jeffk@dosXX.med.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) writes:

>I do not have the statistics in front of me,
>buy it is my understanding that the population
>of the US, while not growing at third world rates,
>is again growing rapidly.

>I believe that for a short time (70's ?) the
>growth rate was near zero, but the mating
>habits of the baby boomers have change that.

>Anyone out there have the numbers?

True, we now have the echo of the baby boom.  Children of the 
baby boomers are now having children.  This puts more people in 
the child-bearing age and is causing an upswing in the birth rate.  
This is only temporary however.  

A more meainingful statistic is fertility, the average number of 
children each woman has.  This fertility rate is not influenced 
by temporary things such as the baby boom but represents the long-
term population growth or decline due to births and deaths.  I 
believe somewhere around 2.2 is the replacement rate.  Below that 
represents a population decline.  To maintain a constant 
population each woman, on the average, must replace herself, her 
mate and a bit more to allow for those who do not reach maturity.  

The number we really need is fertility.  Anybody have it?  I think I
heard it is still below the replacement rate but can't document
that.