From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Out Of Context Zohar Passage Clarified
Date: 15 Oct 1992 21:34:51 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

>David Harwood originally wrote:
>
>> (vii) I suppose that some rabbis, and other Jews of some circles and
>> sects in history, have also alterred texts and promulgated falsehoods
>> as well, for religous reasons.

I asked if he meant
" 1. that what they sincerely promulgated were falsehoods..."  or

" 2. that they intentionally promulgated what they knew were falsehoods,
   but did it anyway for religious reasons..."

David Harwood said:

> sectarian religious prejudices are involved. Also, you suppose that I have
> #1 or #2 in mind, when I think both are true sometimes. If you need
..
> Otherwise, I was simply correcting your previous mistaken inference
> about what I was supposed to believe - either #1 (which you omitted)
> or #2.

I never said the or was exclusive.  The answer "both" is valid,
and your assumption that I meant exclusive-or was incorrect.


>>>  If you need examples, you can find such (textual and ideological)
>>> contradictions within Jewish traditions, among sectarians. And you can
>>> find recriminations (even Maimonides was excommunicated by some rabbis
>>> and communities) among sincere peoples. Some thought M- was
>>> promulgating false religion.(!)
>
>> You've described an incorrect accusation of promulgating falsehood,
>> not evidence that such insincere promulgation actually happened.
>
> Bad guess (or inference) again - since I never intended to suggest this 
> was "evidence that such *insincere* promulgation actually happened."

The antecedent to my request for evidence was for case #2, which
is the case of alleged propagation of known falsehood for
religious reasons.  You didn't answer this, but instead
cited an accusation of case #2.  It's like saying "show
me evidence of <X>" and getting the non-answer "someone
accused <Y> of <X>."


> I meant that there were textual and ideological contradictions among
> religious sects, promulgated by adherents.

Then you didn't answer my question.


> I think you are too ready to draw prejudiced (and wrong) inferences
> about what I said or think. Of course, we will disagree ;-)




>>>	 With respect to Jews and Christians, some things said by 
>>> both in their religious writings are derogatory, moreover untrue, and 
>>> other things are unfair criticisms. While some many people may sincerely 
>>> believe these things, others do not but use them anyway because of their
>>> hatred of others...

Your last sentence postulates the existence of people who use
what they don't believe in order to make a point.  I then said
"prove it" below: 

>> Go ahead, post some examples of Jews whose hatred was such that they
>> nefariously altered texts and promulgated falsehoods.  If you do have
>> examples, let's see them, or at least pointers to them.  If you don't,
>> nthen why believe that it happened?
>
> Why don't you go ahead and reread what I actually said without making
> prejudiced inferences?

I read your sentence very carefully.  If you disagree, then
clarify it.


> To straighten you out - you yourself posted articles, initiating this
> series of responses, of an anonymous friend, you call an "expert,"
> which were all of - derogatory, untrue, and unfairly critical. (He
> wasn't nefarious, just deliberately ignorant.)
...
> You yourself promulgated his views, in unfair criticism of someone else.

I'm waiting for both to back up the charges of altering the Zohar.


> And whether or not your motives are religiously sincere, or
> representative of orthodox Judaism, I believe you are less concerned
> with truth than motivated by religious prejudice against those Jews
> who call themselves Messianic Jews (quite logically enough ;-)

I see evangelical Christians such as Bruce Benning, Bruce Tiffany,
Bill Carlson, Laura Manninen, and I see ordained evangelical Christian
minister Harvey Smith, who claims Jewish descent.

I love my fellow Jews, and even Harvey Smith is welcome at
any time to return to Judaism.  From Psalm 145 we learn that
G-d is close to all who call to Him in truth.


> (I believe I already said that I do not believe that orthodox Jewish
> or Christian authorities of history insincerely (nefariously or
> otherwise) alterred or otherwise missrepresented essential texts.
> (They editted, or marked them, according with their sincere religious
> beliefs or prejudices.)

What's the difference?  The Talmud says "A man who has no wife cannot
be called a man."  The 15th century Basel censor, Father Marco Marino
changed it to "A Jew who has no wife cannot be called a man" and
changed "goy" to "Cushite."  This is intentional misrepresentation of
what the censor knew the text said.  

The accusations on the table are that either other Christians did the
same to the Zohar, or that Jews deleted the passages with the same
intent of misrepresenting the text.  I await evidence from both sides.

R

Newsgroups: alt.messianic