HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jjsulliv@COLBY.EDU (Nice Young Lady(tm))
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <jjsulliv@COLBY.EDU (Nice Young Lady(tm))>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 13:38:41 GMT


 stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips) writes

>In-Reply-To: <11Nov92.023342.14066@granite.ciw.edu> cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald
> Cohen)

>> +From         : cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen)
>> +Subject      : Re: Conversion Question
>
>> In article <92315.121602YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNE
>> wr
ites:

>> I think Rambam had the right point of view on this.  He states
>> that one should not investigate a family to see if they are
>> Jewish if they claim so.  Their claim should be accepted unless
>> they are mean-spirited, in which case the presumption is that
>> they are not Jewish!

>This may have been the case in the Rambam's day when such things as
>Conservative and Reform didn't exist. But today, when I believe that
>the majority of the Jews in the U.S. belong to one or other of these
>movements, I don't think that one can so easily make such assumptions
>as to a person's Jewishness, especially, as I have said above, when
>it is fairly easy to check up on these things.

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hm.. I have yet to see a book of Jewish history that denies that, whatever
they called themselves, there have always been various sects/cultic groups
within Judaism.  I doubt Rambam's time was an exception.

JJ

Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:20654 talk.politics.mideast:22365
From: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,il.board,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Vatican Recognition of Israel - Who Needs It?
Date: 20 Nov 92 12:05:30 GMT
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
NNTP-Posting-Host: vms.huji.ac.il
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

This is an honest appeal for help.  Could someone explain to
me the reasons for the heat of Israel pursuit of Vatican 
recognition?  

This pursuit is beyond me.  I would think that the Vatican 
might be interested, in its new ecumenical image, in fostering
a position of tolerance to the Jewish State.  But that is hardly
the case.  Indeed, it is the Vatican that is reluctant and 
Israel the ardent suitor.  Why?  What does Israel want from such
an alliance which will only involve more pressure to 
internationalize Jerusalem, and to favor Vatican claims over those
of rival churches?   Taking sides in such a dispute can only bring
troubles.

Of course I am also the guy who could little understand Israel
participation in the Spanish "renunciation" of the 1492 order
expelling Jews from that country.


__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:13:03 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <FAIGIN.92Nov23104704@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org
(Daniel P. Faigin) writes:

>FACT: Reform does have a different understanding of what the mitzvot are.

"different" and, more importantly, new.

>FACT: Some more traditional branches will not accept Reform converts without
>reconversion or demonstration that the appropraite "yoke" was accepted.

Quite correct.

>Suppose you had a Reform convert who converted in front of proper witnesses
>and had circumcision/mikvah, but whose understanding at the time of the
>conversion was the Reform understanding of mitzvot. This person subsequently
>became Baal Teshuvah and accepted the full yoke of the mitzvot. Would you
>require reconversion?

First of all, I think the term does not make sense.  A Reform convert
who is interested in becomming, say, Orthodox, is not a Baal Teshuvah.
This is so from the perspective of the Orthodox and may well also be so
from the perspective of the convert.  And that is just what s/he is: a
convert (until, of course, the procedure is complete.  At that point
s/he is a Jew).  Second, I am not in any position to make such a
determination.  This is a problem that is truly worthy of a competant
Orthodox Rabbinic decision. Having said that....

While it may be easier for this person to convert a second time (that
is what happened to the wife of a cousin of mine), the person would,
most likelly, recognize the need for a universally acceptable
conversion.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Pierced Ears
Date: 15 Nov 92 22:28:09 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1ky5TB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de> tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer) writes:
>dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>> 
>> I think the reason today has to do with bodilly mutillation.  For the
>> same reason that elective surgery is not allowed.
>
>  If so: Is plastic surgery for aesthetics reasons forbidden for a Jew ? 

As far as I know, yes.  The obly surgery that is permitted is that
which is essential.  If you need a transplant or some other
life-saving operation, you are obligated to have it.  But an operation
for aesthetics (like a nose-job when you have no problem breathing) is
not permitted.

-- 
  |)  David Charlap          | .signature confiscated by FBI due to
 /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu | an ongoing investigation into the
((|,)                        | source of these .signature virusses
 ~|~
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi propaganda on this net
Date: 22 Nov 92 00:40:32 GMT
Organization: "The Private Site of Manfredo Tichauer"

ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:


> Warren is using this Jewish net in order to distribute a Nazi
> propaganda! We should oppose such a propaganda no metter who is the
> distributer.

   Mr.Gideon Ehrlich  must be  out of  his mind when he accuses a fellow
   Jew of being a nazi, even if he disagrees with his opinions. 

   Unfortunately many orthodox Jews in Israel (also in the Knesset) make use
   of this infamous kind of accusations against their  political and even of
   their religious opponents. I find that it is a mayor  offence  to  accuse
   a Jew (specially if one knows that the accused is a proud and proven Jew)
   and  a bigger  offence  against  OUR  six millions  murdered grandparents,
   parents,  uncles  and  aunts,  brothers  and  sisters,  since the accuser
   minimizes with his accusation the "job"  done by the real nazis. Neonazis
   laugh at their  sleeves when they read or hear that a Jew accuses another
   Jew of beeing a nazi!
     
   Jews that make these improper accusations to other Jews should:

   a) come to Europe and visit Auschwitz and other of these former German
      "Club Mediterranee" (Annihilation and Concentration camps);
   b) visit once in a while Yad Vashem or any similar institutions;
   c) apologize personally and openly for misusing the word nazi; and
   d) As long as they don't apologize, they should be completely ignored
      by the readers of s.c.j.
 
   PS. I mean very seriously c) and d).  I personally incurred in the error
       of accusing a proven antinazi of being a nazi. This happened because
       I misinterpreted something written  by  him and I didn't know who he
       was: I regretted it and I apologized afterwards.  In this case,  Mr.
       Ehrlich KNEW who Warren Burstein is and therefor he should make honour
       to his name (ehrlich means fair, honest in German) and apologize. I  
                    ^^^^^^^       ^^^^  ^^^^^^
       promise him that this doesn't hurt ;^)

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Subject: NJ/NY Music Stores
Organization: LA&W RR
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 19:26:09 GMT

I'd like to get some cassettes and/or CD's by Sepham, Kesher, Journey
but would like to listen to the albums first.  Does anyone know of any
New York City area (preferably Norhern NJ) stores which carry
"contemporary" Jewish music and have demo albums?

Shalom

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: Collaborative Information Technology Research Institute
Date: 17 Nov 92 00:16:43 GMT

stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>This all goes back to a point I raised a few days ago.  The
>Orthodox Jewish community does not define our religion.  

It does, always has, and always will, and you acknowledge that yourself.
Stan Krieger doesn't accept the definition though.
That's fine, Stan.

>It still amazes me how, after the lesson of Tisha B'Av and the civil
>war that led to the Roman conquest, how after the Holocaust, when
>the Nazis didn't care who was Orthodox, Conservative, Reform,
>non-observant, or even halachically not Jewish, and how even as we
>see the emergence of anti-Semitism in Europe today,  we see
>Jews on this net, under the guise of being the only ones who
>"know" how to observe our religion, fragmenting what's left
>of our people.

It amazes me even more that you can with one rather sweeping brush of pixels
attempt to cast the sadness of Tisha B'Av and the tragedy of the Holocaust
over the quite legitimate theological distinction between Orthodox and the rest.

What are you saying?

That it is based on Sinas Chinam (your pointer to Tisha B'Av)
		We know that's just plain rubbish.
That Hitler defined who is a Jew? (your pointer to the Holocaust)
		I find that thought repulsive in the extreme
That Anti-semitism in Eurpoe should somehow weaken one's resolve to attach
oneself to (in the Orthodox view) The theologically correct interpretation 
of Judaism?
		I can't even begin to see the connection
That maintaining ones theological conviction is tantamount to fragmenting
our people?
		This is preposterous.

Get of your soap box Krieger, look at yourself and then go out and
set a good example. That's all you have to do. If you do it, then 
you will have achieved a hell of a lot more than the nonsense you
posted above.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen)
Subject: Halacha when the decisive facts were wrong (was Re:
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:54:59 GMT
Organization: Geophysical Laboratory, CIW

In article <1992Nov19.201432.25057@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>  What I _am_ asking, is the following: When no tradition about a
>  situation exists, and a ruling is obtained by applying the
>  existing halacha to a set of facts, what should be our
>  response when the facts are later shown to be false? An
>  example is the barnacle goose. It was thought to grow on
>  trees (the incorrect fact) and the kashrut rules (in this
>  case for fruit) were applied to it. When it became clear
>  that the facts were wrong, the ruling was changed (to
>  regular kasher bird). Is such a "re-interpretation"
>  halachically valid? Why or why not?


Another example is "electricity is fire" which is false.
-- 
Ronald Cohen
Geophysical Laboratory, Carnegie Institution of Washington
5251 Broad Branch Rd., N.W.,  Washington, D.C. 20015
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Why I think Kach's policies are racist (AND DANGEROUS)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 09:15:13 GMT

In <1992Nov13.194419.10930@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxva.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>	That is not the point, although G-d has made certain promises
>that if X happens he will do Y.  Unless you are willing to call G-d a
>liar, we can force Y by seeing to it that X occurs.

I would be interested in knowing what promises God has made.  Has he
promised, for example, that if Israel adopts a particular policy (if
so, which?) that a particular result is guaranteed?

No doubt if we all were tzaddikim (I mean in the sense of fulfilling
the Torah, not in the sense that was used in the discussion in SCJ of
the concept of Rebbe-Tzaddik some time back) no end of good things
would happen (but while we can decide to adopt a particular policy, we
cannot decide that everyone will be a tzaddik - we might
hypothetically force them to act like tzaddikim while the police are
watching, but they still could commit trangressions in private which
would make us no longer worthy of divine intervention).  Is this what
you refer to, or do you know of detailed promises which are not
contingent on the spiritual level of the people?
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org 			    Jerusalem
From: VINER%BGUVM.bitnet@VM.TAU.AC.IL (Dov Winer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Pitkhu She'arim
Date: 22 Nov 1992 14:56:34 -0600
Organization: Ben-Gurion University, Beer-Sheva, Israel
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
X-Unparseable-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 22:53:36 IST

Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 92 22:42:49 IST
From:         MZIERAF@HAIFAUVM
To:           jewishnt@bguvm

Shalom, Would anyone be so kind and help me find, for a writer abroad, the
 origin of the words - "PITKHU SHE'ARIM VEYAVO GOI SHOMER EMUNIM" - that are
 inscribed on the main gates of the old sinagogue in Berlin (in Hebrew).
  Thanks, E. Rafaeli

*************************************************************************
                              * * * * * * *
*************************************************************************
Please answer to E. Rafaeli at  MZIERAF@HAIFAUVM

Dov Winer
Ben Gurion University
Internet : viner at bguvm.bgu.ac.il
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: NO WAY!
Date: 20 Nov 92 08:52:45 GMT
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In: <92322.135608YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>disbelieves:

>A grenade attack in East Jerusalem?!! I personally would not believe for
>a moment that Kakh people would do such a thing, except possibly with
>IMMEDIATE EXTREME provocation, and what constitutes THAT can certainly be
>debated IF or when a major outrage occurs RIGHT BEFORE such an attack.
>
>I don't believe for one INSTANT that this attack was the work of Kakh!

I am ready to admit that as the actual murderer(s) have not been found
no one can be  *sure* that the outrage was the work  of Kach or Kahana
Hai.

But  Yaakov simply  disbelieves  it on  principle.   Well, before  the
attack happened, a person calling  himself David and claiming to speak
for Kahana  Hai (that is  the splinter of  the the movement  headed by
Meir Kahane's son Binyamin) told  a newspaper reporter that Kahana Hai
is going  to perform  an attack  in the Muslim  Quarter to  avenge the
murder of Meir  Kahane two years before on that  day.  Later after the
outrage had been  reported on the radio, another call  was received by
one calling  himself Ronen claiming  to speak  for Kach and  he stated
that Kach  people have performed  the deed.  Clearly neither  of these
calls *proves* that any one of  these two groups actually commited the
murder.

On the  other hand spokemen  for both these  groups when asked  by the
press, while denying  being behind this act, said that  they bless the
hands  of those  who  threw  the grenade,  avenging  Jewish blood  and
redeeming at least somewhat the honour of the Jewish people.

So  while there  is no  proof that  the Kahanites  have performed  the
murder,  Yaakov's disbelief  of  this possibility  is  based on  shaky
ground.

>Rather, it was almost certainly that of some group seeking to further
>muddy Kakh's name. Kakh is not so stupid, nor is it so amoral, let alone
>immoral. THis, after all, is MURDER, hardly anything ***RABBI*** Kahane
>might ever have given his approval to!

Rather  a  very unusual  ***RABBI***.   Most  of the  Orthodox  Rabbis
publically denounced  his teachings.  The  fact that someone  had once
been  ordained  as a  Rabbi,  even  an  Orthodox  one, does  not  make
everything he  later says  true and acceptable  as OK  with Orthodoxy.
Yaakov surely remembers a great, very great ***RABBI*** by the name of
Elisha  ben  Avuya, who  was  the  teacher  of some  outstanding  (and
generally accepted) Rabbis,  and who was then banned  by the Religious
establishment of his  days.  I an sure that were  Kahane alive he also
would have made  statements to the effect of  praising these murderers
of an Arab.

>Yaakov K., supporter of Rav Meir Kahane, Hashem Yiqqom Dammo
>           (may G-d avenge his blood!)

There is a  possibility that in this avenging some  Jews tried to lend
God a hand.

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Why I think Kach's policies WASTE BANDWIDTH
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:55:33 GMT

>>>>>>>>>Herman said:
>>>>>>>>>Kach is racist
>>>>>>>>Isaac said:
>>>>>>>>no they are not
>>>>>>>Israel said:
>>>>>>>yes they are
>>>>>>Shlomo said
>>>>>>they are not
>>>>>Moishe said:
>>>>>but they are
>>>>Haimi said:
>>>>define racist
>>>Yaacov said:
>>>Kach is racist
>>Shmuel said:
>>no they are not
>Mikhael said:
>yes they are

A racist will never admit to being one.  He/she will admit to 
the existence of racists, but his/her policies will never
be racist, by definition.  Save your breath and our bandwith
ladies and gentlemen.

Let's just make sure these people never get their hands on real
power or influence.

--
Eli Chiprout                 
Dept. of Electronics, 
Carleton University, Canada
emc@doe.carleton.ca                                     
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Yogi Berra online
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 21:07:03 GMT

Yes, the wit and wisdom of this great man is now available in archive form.
Read the words that have proven a spiritual lift to so many!  Just check
out dev@null.get.lost.

(Why is this is s.c.j?  Who cares!)
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "I am what I am, Leila -- and if there are self-made
Bellcore            |  purgatories, then we all must live in them.
Piscataway, N.J.    |  Mine is no worse than someone else's."
(908) 699-8800      |                     - Spock, "This Side of Paradise"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 07:18:46 GMT

In <1992Nov17.135125.25237@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

    In case you forgot, we are one people, and the infighting over
    whether the child of a woman converted by a Bet Din of Conservative
    Rabbis is Jewish is just as harmful to our people as are our
    real enemies.

Why is this less harmful than the way that (at least some of it) C
won't accept some R conversions?  Or why is there no infighting?
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org 			    Jerusalem
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
Subject: Re: Was the Holocaust Unique?
Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:15:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov05.194813.697874@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:
>
>I would like to know if the Holocaust was unique in Jewish history.
>
>Specifically, according to my understanding, the holocaust was the
>first time in history that there was a mass effort to kill the
>entire Jewish people ch"v - no if's, and's, or buts. NO matter
>whether the Jew was a practicing Jew or not, no matter whether he
>even identified himself as a Jew or not, no matter if he had ch"v
>"converted to some other religion"  generations back - he
>was still a target for Hitler.   Hitler did not plan to stop
>until every last Jew was eradicated from the face of the Earth.

Emil Fackenheim, a professor of philosophy at Hebrew U, argues
that it was unique.

In other cases, people could flee, bribe, convert, etc.
In this case, these were not options.

He also argues that the killing was evil for evil's sake, so that
the nature of the evil is radically different (in that the Nazi's
had nothing to gain:  politically, monetarily, security wise, etc.
by the killing)

If you can read his books, he talks about this, and also what
the proper response to such an evil is.

(He calls the "voice of Aushwitz" the 614th commandment, and says
that "one if forbidden to give Hitler posthomous victories" which
has implications for how we live our lives now).

>Am I correct? Is the holocaust unique in this aspect? Are there
>other unique aspects to the holocaust?

See Fackenheim's book, and other related books.  (Berkowitz and others)

>Hayim Hendeles

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV>.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal (was Re: NO WAY! (Re: A message from Kach...))
From: Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Wednesday, 18 Nov 1992 14:24:00 EST
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

Mr. Skoll,

Though a supporter of the late Rabbi Kahane, HY"D, I have never been a
member of either Kakh or of Kahane Chai. Should it indeed prove that the
East Jerusalem grenade attack was the work of either of those organizations,
I will, in addition to condemning the attack, mourn the deviation of
whichever group, G-d Forbid, turns out to be the perpetrator of this horrid
act, from the JUDAIC principles I personally know the late RABBI Kahane
espoused.

Yaakov K.
--------
Yaakov Kayman      (212) 903-3666       City University of New York
BITNET:   YZKCU@CUNYVM                  Internet: YZKCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
        "May it be His Will that the fear of Heaven be upon you
         as is the fear of flesh and blood"

        (Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai's blessing to his students,
                     Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Berakhot 28b)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: A message from Kach to the Arabs?
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:00:31 GMT

From "Israel Line", 16 November, 1992:

> Israel Radio, KOL YISRAEL, reports that a hand grenade exploded
> this afternoon in a market in the Moslem Quarter of Jerusalem
> killing a 70 year-old Arab and injuring 8 others.  Before the
> incident, someone called a reporter from the newspaper HADASHOT,
> saying that the Kach movement intended to stage an attack in
> eastern Jerusalem. After the hand grenade had gone off, someone
> again called the same journalist saying that the Kach movement was
> taking responsibility for the grenade attack. The commander of the
> Jerusalem Police said that an intensive investigation is being
> conducted to find those responsible for the attack. No suspects
> have yet been apprehended.

Do the supporters of Kach on scj not see that cowardly terrorist
attacks such as the above are the inevitable results of Kach's
platform?

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________