From: davidch@ZIMMER.CSUFRESNO.EDU (David Choweller)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The "God Does Not Exist" Proof
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:56:42 GMT

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The "God Does Not Exist" Proof
Summary: 
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Distribution: world,local
Organization: California State University, Fresno
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In article <5APR199221430456@rosie.uh.edu> cosc143u@rosie.uh.edu (91F9774) writes:
|In article <4APR199209370640@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>, lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) writes...
|>In article <3APR199213560273@rosie.uh.edu>, cosc143u@rosie.uh.edu (91F9774) writes...
|>>My child reaches for the hot stove.  I say, "That's hot you better not 
|>>touch it."  My child then touches the hot stove.  I could have chosen to
|>>turn off the stove or to remove the child from the area but I didn't.
|>> 
|>>Am I evil or am I acting in the childs best interests?  This viewpoint
|>>does not require a religious belief to hold it (I'm not noted for being 
|>>religious).  
|> 
|>I'm not so sure you're acting in the child's best interests here, but
|>let's assume for the sake of argument that you are.  If you are, this
|>is because this is the best way you have of getting the child to learn.
|>If, however, you were an omnipotent being, you could pass the relevant
|>information to the child directly, without the necessity of letting
|>the child get burned.  (In fact, you could have created your child with
|>all the knowledge he or she needs to get along in life in the first
|>place, and not needed to teach anything.)
|> 
|My point was... you cannot teach responsibility.  I can tell my child:

But an omnipotent God can just create someone who already has "respons-
ibility.  Your analogy is false because you're comparing human parenting
with an omnipotent God.  They're totally different.

|"That stove is hot.  If you touch it, you will be burned."  I can put
|a piece of paper on the stove and show my child that it begins to smoke
|and then bursts into flame.  My child now has all the information needed
|to know that if they touch the stove that they will be burned.  But some
|children *still* touch the stove.
|
|It could be that (speaking from the argument now) free will and the 
|existance of evil is necessary to find out who is truly good.  The crux

If this is true, then this rule was made by God.  It need not necessarily
be that way.  Therefore God is still responsible for all Evil.  Also,
remember that finding out who is Good, is just finding out who follows
the arbitrary rules made by God.  Why is it necessary to find out
who is truly good?  Why doesn't God make just good souls?  Do you see
the silliness here?  God makes a whole bunch of souls, some good, some
bad, puts all of them through torture, and then throws the bad ones into
hell forever .   What is the point of this exercise?

|of the argument is that being omnipotent (etc) god would know in advance
|who would turn out good or evil and could stop them.  But, even if you 
|can predict the future with 100% accuracy, that future must take place
|for your prediction to hold.  It could be that the this God of your 
|argument is aware of all of the problems that will happen during the 
|umpteen odd billion years the universe will exist but cannot change them
|because he/she/it already saw that they *would* happen.
|
|This is of course a version of the "greater good" argument.  God allows the
|evil in the universe for the greater good of creating a large amount of 
|"good" people.  

I don't see the inherent good in creating a large amount of "good" people.
Good people are just people who follow the arbitrary rules of God.  Even
if this was neccessary, why couldn't just good souls have been created?
Actually, to me, even this option is unacceptable, because the good souls
would still have to be put through torture.

|
|As an aside, from what I have read of the Bible and in my discussions of
|the bible with more religious friends, my comment about "sycophants for
|God" is harsh but accurate.  The view the well read one's held was of an
|eternity of worshipping and being with god.  No fishing.  No movies.
|No pop corn.
|---
|Stephen McLeod
|The Eternal Student

Exactly; that's why the God of the monotheistic religions is a blooming
tyrant.  Even if I was sure of his existence, I could never worship
him.  It's analogous to being in a country ruled by a ruthless dictator;
you're under his power, but you don't have to respect him.
--

                                                 davidch@zimmer.CSUFresno.EDU
And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forbodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
                -- "Brain Damage," Pink Floyd