HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lking@athena.mit.edu (Loren King)
Subject: Re: The western world
Keywords: freedom 
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:08:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.101603.1@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>, 
phys224@csc.canterbury.ac.nz writes:

|> I've been reading this group for some time now,and am confused about the
|> negative opinions many have about America and the west in general.
|> What is so wrong with us? We may not be muslem (generally),but we do 
|> believe in freedom of political belief,religious belief,the freedom to
|> find your own path in life,without having it forced upon you.


I think this is precisely what Islamic governments find 
disturbing, i.e. that institutional structures in 
"the West" constrain the actions of individuals, but 
do not direct them.  Any system of government predicated 
upon a fixed set of beliefs that cannot be questioned by
any and everyone probably has the same deep-seated 
suspicion of any society where people can base their 
lives on whatever values they please, with the state 
stepping in only to ensure that no one person's
values limits the freedom of another to believe 
whatever they want.
  In fact, I notice a clear similarity between the 
dogmatic claims of the following groups as to
their unique insights into what really is good
and proper:

1) Islamic governments
2) Marxist-Leninist regimes

and 

3) The American religious right.

  Pat Robertson and Dan Quayle would no doubt love a white, 
heterosexual Christian State where women were safely stowed
away in the kitchen, and forced to dress in `a decent manner.'
Sound familiar? 


|> E.g. in our culture there is now an almost across the board belief that women
|> have the absolute right to control their own bodies,to choose their own
|> career (be it prime minster or nuclear scientist or whatever.)
|> The point is,people are free here!we have crime,but the criminals are in the
|> minority. 

|> What system of life could be better?


I don't know, but I believe that we should all have 
the right to ask this question and find the answer 
for ourselves, the only limit being that we
don't forcibly impose our answer upon others.

And I agree with you that Islamic States 
generally don't provide this sort of freedom 
for everyone.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

|> If iranians were free to choose their 
|> own religion, how many would be muslim?


Well, they'd likely still believe in Islam, but I think
that if they wanted to explore and analyse their beliefs,
they'd want to do so in a non-Islamic state.  In fact, I
think they'd have to ... How long would Rushdie have
lasted if he'd written and published the Satanic Verses 
while living in Tehran?



 
|> stephen botha,christchurch,new zealand.


I agree with Stephen as to the value of
freedom in social life, and the kind of 
limits necessary to ensure this freedom.
After Rousseau, perhaps we should `force 
each other to be free.'

What frightens me is the thought that our
view may be a minority position.


_________

Loren King
MIT
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: bavafa@netcom.com (Hooshyar Naraghi)
Subject: Re: Ms King Is this your real name???
Organization: Who me having problem?
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 08:52:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.073201.13627@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mkarimna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Melissa Karimnamazi) writes:

>In article <19154.9211111335@thor.cf.ac.uk> scemg@thor.cf.ac.uk ("M.G") writes:
>>To Ms L.King,
>>
>>Is this your real name??
>>I am sure you are a jew so your name has to be something like
>>KAHAN, KHIEEM, or MENAHIM.
>>That is the practice of all the jews they change their names
>>claim they are christians
>>then they start attaking ISLAM and the MUSLIM regadless in the
>>name of FREEDOM.
>>
>>Why do not you attak the Turkish Govenment who ban the Hijab
>>and SADDAM who killed thousands of innocent people.
>>
>>NO OFF COURSE NOT
>>
>>The Turkish gov. doing a very good job especially their are thousands of
>>jews (every single jew is a spy for Israel) in Turkey
>>and Saddam is a great man in your eyes
>>and most of the American and the jews where else they can find
>>an evil like him
>>This the truth ms King or what ever your name is.
>>
>>
>>M.G
>>CARDIFF, WALES, U.K
>
>I am more than willing to consider M.G.'s views in a serious
>manner if I could only figure out what they are.
>
>Do others have this problem or is it just me?

Yes, yes, yes!  I have the same problem!
No, no, no!  You are not alone.

Regards,
Hooshyar F. Naraghi
bavafa@netcom.com
(415) 322-8056



Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: ahriman@wam.umd.edu (Lu Cifer)
Subject: Re: Culture and Women
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 23:57:34 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.152233.27805@athena.mit.edu> nsohrabi@athena.mit.edu (Naghmeh Sohrabi) writes:
>
>dear lucifer,
>
dear Naghmeh joon,

>I am touched by all this attention, not only to what i say and don't say,
>but also to my legs.

You're very welcome. My only wish is to be able to shave those legs one day.
No razor burns, I promise.

>It's wonderful to know that among all these people, you've chosen me to show
>your very funny sense of humor to ahAli-yeh SCI.
>
>thank you,
>naghmeh

Naghmeh joon, it is no accident that you are the "Chosen One". It is the
combination of your destiny and the fact that you totally lack a sense of
humor that has put you at the center of my attention. As far as the quality
of my sense of humor is concerned, I'll let each of the ahali make up their
own mind.

-- 
ahriman
(aka Lucifer)
From: ghbr@fmg.bt.co.uk (Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: Iran-Iraq war
Date: 12 Nov 92 09:42:20 GMT
Organization: British Telecom

In article <1992Nov11.004941.13631@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad) writes:

> If the IRI leadership had been smart, they would have invited those military
> men who were not strong supporters of Shah, and were willing to work for
> their COUNTRY to continue to serve, while firing only the heads who were 
> unquestionable loyalists.  They would have also taken a peaceful stance
> towards their neighbors and towards the rest of the world by not blabbing
> about exporting their revolution

Just for the record.  I vividly remember that in the few weeks before
the Iraqis invaded Iran, Jallal-od-din Farsi (the then darling of the
Islamic Republic Party and their grooming presidential election
candidtae) was repeatedly ranting over the Tehran radio on the "duty"
of the Islamic Republic to "liberate" the Iraqi "moslems" from their
"infidel" rulers.  Fore anybody carefully listening to these, it was
obvious that that was a receipe for war and that we were heading
towards it.  Then followed some border skirmishes and infiltrations by
paasdaars - and then the all-out INVASION and WAR.

> >Agha Javad

-hossein
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari)
Subject: Iran Refuses Consular Access To Arrested U.S. Businessman
Originator: sehari@class1.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University of Science and Technology, Ames, Iowa.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:11:40 GMT

11/05 (DJ) Iran Refuses Consular Access To Arrested U.S. Businessman

    WASHINGTON -AP- Iran has refused to grant consular access to a U.S.
businessman arrested on spy charges three weeks ago, the State
Department said.
    The official Islamic Republic News Agency had said yesterday that
Milton Mayar, 58, was providing vital business information from Iran to
several international companies.  It said he also had links with foreign
intelligence agents.
    State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said the Swiss Embassy,
which handles U.S. interests in Iran, has made repeated requests for
consular access to Mayar without success.
    The Iranian news agency, monitored in Cyprus, said Mayar was accused
of ''illegal establishment of several trade firms, collecting important
economic information and identifying leading elements at commercial
institutions and environments.''
    It said he was the brother-in-law of Gen. Nematollah Nasiri, the
head of the late shah of Iran's secret police, who was executed after
the 1979 Islamic revolution.
    Mayar remained in Iran after the revolution on the ''pretext'' of
having an Iranian wife, the news agency said.
     3:59 PM
                                 -END-
------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: bsadeghi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Behzad Sadeghi)
Subject: Re: behzad, the new joojeh mosalmoon
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:43:32 GMT

In article <BxIDIE.79F@ucunix.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.151406.9803@Princeton.EDU> bsadeghi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Behzad Sadeghi) writes:
>>the new trend in islamic debates has aroused my sense of curiosity
>>and forced me to do some research about some issues in islam.
>>
>>the focus of this article is mainly abortion and birth control in
>>islam, and here is what i found (which i might add, contradicts
>>the views of our 'islamic scholars' i.e. seyyed, ali baba, cow, ...);
>>
>>on abortion:
>>
>>this is acceptable in islam, according to most theologicians, as
>>long as the fetus is not fully formed; a state which is said to occur
>>120 days after conception. no objection is raised to abortion performed
>>after this moment if their aim is to safeguard the health or safety of
>>the mother.
>>
>>birth control:
>>
>>it has been practiced in the past in islam, and most methods of 
>>contraception are generally admitted upon condition of being acceptable
>>to both parties. in recent times there have been fatwas to this effect
>>issued by the council of ulama, reaffirming legal opinion formed
>>centuries ago.
>>
>>(excerpts from the concise encyclopedia of islam, cyril glasse, 
>>harpercollins publishers)
>>
>>behzad
>
>not that i am contradicting what you are saying, i am not. but i think it
>would be better ir one does their research on islam from islamic sources, and
>not from just one school of thought at that. it would ensure to a greater extent
>the veracity of what is being expounded upon and a greater diversity of opinion.

i completely agree with this, and if time permits, i'll do exactly
that (which is to look at different sources).

>also islamic sources are more likely in using the quran and sunnat as evidence
>to support a specific stance.

all the writings in this book is based on quran and sunnat, and the
author gives reference to the exact passage.             

>also not to sound biased myself, but i have almost always found sources like
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>encyclopedias and books written by non-muslims to always be biased against us
>and/or islam. of course there are many exceptions, however they are definitely
>few and far between compared to the number of resources like the ones you have
>shown which are biased.
>my thought.

sorry zafar, but you do sound biased.

i disagree with your comments here: some of the best historical books
ever written about middle east has been by harvard and oxford scholars.
and for my own personal taste, i rather read the opinion of an outsider
than someone from within, who may have an even more biased opinion.

>
>--== not the fingernail man ==--
>
>zafar
>

behzad


Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: ys3359@thor.albany.edu (Yazmasterj)
Subject: Re: Culture and Women
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:06:23 GMT

In article <10NOV199209034964@rosie.uh.edu> cosc186y@rosie.uh.edu (92F06787) went on about...
> Regarding this bitch Loren "I wish I was Iranian!" King,
>
>  Get the hell off of soc.culture.iranian! You don't know what the fuck
>you are talking about?            ^^^^^^^
>
>Satan

Aaahhh.  An intelligent, well-constructed counter-argument.  Its always
lovely to see such thoughtful analyses on the net.

Yasmin

-- 
**************************************************************************
*  Yasmin Sohrawardy                *          Clinton/Gore '92          *
*  Internet:  ys3359@csc.albany.edu *            THEY WON !!!            *
**************************************************************************
From: ahriman@wam.umd.edu (Ahoora joon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: Ramones concert
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:28:28 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

In article <1992Nov4.183602.27593@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad) writes:
>
>Recently, I have been getting responses to my idea  of a Ramones concert
>in Tehran which range from disbelief to ridiculing the idea.  But I just

>if a band like the Ramones have a concert there one day!  (ok, ok, maybe start
>with Elton John or Billy Joel first, but you get the point) I might add that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>Agha Javad
>(baghghal porharfeh vo boogeegareh)

Yes, I can see how a homosexual and a redneck would have an easier time
breaking in the Iranian market, than the Ramones. Actually a Rap group
would be best. Apparently Rap has made it real big in Iran. Ice T is
one of the popular ones. 

Remember his song "Cop Killer" that was never released. Well, knowing
of his popularity in Iran, he changed it to "Akhoond Killer" and 
released it in the special Iranian version of his CD. :)
-- 
ahriman
(aka Lucifer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: payman@carson.u.washington.edu (Payman Arabshahi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: News from Iran
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:50:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov5.185042.23685
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle


				Radio Tehran
				15084 kHz
				Nov. 1 1992

> Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance is
  banning continued publication of works by
  two Iranian poets, Nader Naderpour and 
  Esmaiel Khoi, after the two poets signed 
  a statement of unconditional support for
  Salman Rushdie.  Two collections of poems
  from Naderpour and Khoi were going to be
  published recently in Iran.  Previous to
  this action, the Ministry had informed
  the Iranian media to refrain from any
  publication of the works of these poets,
  in accordance with the Press law. 

> The 15th of Khordad foundation under the
  direction of Ayatollah Sanei, announced
  that it had increased the bounty for 
  carrying out the verdict on Salman Rushdie
  from $2 million to an unspecified amount.

> Iran is suing the US over the destruction
  of three Iranian offshore oil platforms
  by the US Navy in 1987 and 1988.  The lawsuit
  was presented to the International court
  of justice at the Hague and accuses the US
  of violation of international law and 
  demands compensation for the damage done
  to the ResAlat, ReshAdat, and Nasr oil
  platforms.


-Payman
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: Ms King Is this your real name???
Date: 13 Nov 92 23:29:19 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Nov11.205855.21054@rd.hydro.on.ca> nbadie@rd.hydro.on.ca (Navid Badie) writes:
>
>Here we go again with RACIST attacks on people whose opinions do not
>fit some preconceived notion of "truth". One of the primary purposes of 
>forums such as this is **to exchange ideas and opinions**. If you choose
>to engage in personal attacks on those who participate in these
>discussions, you will only take away from your own credibility in 
>the future.

It is true that the purpose of this (and other) newsgroup/s were established
to exchange ideas and opinons; HOWEVER, when these ideas and opinions are
used as personal attacks against sensitive issues (like religion), they lose
their credibility and are vulnerable to being attacked by people who wish to
uphold the dignity and rights of not only their religious beliefs but identity.

I don't appreciate reading very racist remarks towards anyone and perhaps it
should be addressed via email, but you, Mr. Navid, should restrain yourself
from supporting this by justifying the statements of such people who initiated
it - unless, of course, you share in their opinions and slanders of Islam and
Muslim people.

And to those confused about the name Loren, it is a man's name.  Lauren would
be for the name of the woman.
 
Anisa

 	"For the first time we could say to everyone - this is our
 	faith, this is our way of life, this is who we are.  And
 	nothing could stop us.  You can't imagine what that was
 	like....."  Alfred Molina in Not Without My Daughter
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.african,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian
From: naeem@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Naeem Mohaiemen)
Subject: Re: Commodification of Malcolm (Re: MalcomX movie and Newsweek
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:39:19 GMT
Distribution: usa
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


In article <NAEEM.92Nov10174945@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> naeem@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Naeem Mohaiemen) writes:

   Thanksgiving weekend, same day as Francis Ford Coppola's "Dracula"
----
My mistake. The Malcolm X movie is coming out Nov 20.
--
Naeem Mohaiemen
216-774-1993
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I suppose it is because I am a wog."
-[UN Secretary General Boutros Ghali on snub over Somalia vs. Bosnia debate]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mhz@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Mariam Hakim-Zargar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: Aryan symbols
Date: 13 Nov 92 03:43:57 GMT
Reply-To: MHz@nwu.edu (Mariam Hakim-Zargar)
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA

In article <1992Nov11.174503.16875@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> of soc.culture.iranian,
  mks9e@amsun30.apma.Virginia.EDU (Mustafa Kemal Husein Saiyid) writes:
> Could someone kindly tell me if old Aryan symbols still exist in 
> Iran today. In Germany under Hitler, they revived the old Germanic
> symbols the swastika and the old style SS for the Schutz Stafel.
> In India, the reverse swastika is still quite common.
> Thanks in advance.
> Mustafa Saiyid
> 


From what I know, there was never any Arian language evidence found in Persia.
 The oldest known alphabet for which we have any evidence, is that which was
used before the Arab invasion, namely known as Pahlavi dari, or just pahlavi. 
During the reign of Mohammad Reza Shah, there was some attempt to bring this
language (which is primarily today's Farsi minus all the arabic words) and
alphabet back, but I think was unsucessful becuase the old writing system was
not particularly effective... I cant remember why though... I'm sure someone
else can shed some more light, (perhaps?)

					MHz
From: nadja@jetsun.weitek.COM (Nadja Adolf)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: Ms King Is this your real name???
Date: 11 Nov 92 22:45:44 GMT
Organization: WEITEK Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <19154.9211111335@thor.cf.ac.uk> scemg@thor.cf.ac.uk ("M.G") writes:
>To Ms L.King,

>Is this your real name??

Actually, Loren is probably a man. Usually it is spelled Lauren if it
is a woman's name.

>I am sure you are a jew so your name has to be something like
>KAHAN, KHIEEM, or MENAHIM.

Cute. Islamic respect for people of the book as practiced by fanatics.

>That is the practice of all the jews they change their names
>claim they are christians

Really?

>then they start attaking ISLAM and the MUSLIM regadless in the
>name of FREEDOM.

I suppose the tri-lateral commmission funds this? Along with helping 
them kidnap Christian children to make passover food, no doubt.:-) 
{smiley for the current US political affairs impaired}

>Why do not you attak the Turkish Govenment who ban the Hijab
>and SADDAM who killed thousands of innocent people. 

Probably because this is soc.culture.iranian, not soc.culture.turkish,
or alt.desert.storm.

>NO OFF COURSE NOT 

The word is spelled 'of', not 'off.`

>The Turkish gov. doing a very good job especially their are thousands of
>jews (every single jew is a spy for Israel) in Turkey
>and Saddam is a great man in your eyes

Since when was Saddam a Turk? If every Jew in Turkey is a spy for the
Israeli government, then with those sorts of organizational skills the
Jews should be ruling the world by now. 

>and most of the American and the jews where else they can find
>an evil like him

Explain this sentence. Perhaps you shouldn't have cut back on your Thorazine.
Word salad makes little sense to the rest of us.

>This the truth ms King or what ever your name is.


>
>M.G
>CARDIFF, WALES, U.K


-- 
The Earth Pig Bourne....

nadja@node.com (prefered email address)
nadja@weitek.com
From: cosc186y@rosie.uh.edu (92F06787)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Seyyed
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:18:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: rosie.10NOV199209182802
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


 To all you goddam, western loving, feminist, exiles out their, Kiss
my ass! Seyyed is brave enough to stand up to all of you, even though
he is out numbered. I glad that Seyyed is here to express the views 
most Iranians have.

ShAYton. 
(The Devil.)
From: smortaz@handel.Eng.Sun.COM (Shahrokh Mortazavi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: <none>Joojeh
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:07:53 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View, CA  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: handel

In article <lfvtqkINNq6j@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> smortaz@handel.Eng.Sun.COM (Shahrokh Mortazavi) writes:
>
>you know, having read the recent thread on the origin homosapiens, aryans,
>iranians, germans, etc, and considering the mentality of these fundamentalists,
>and their recurring sexual slurrs, extreme homophobia, 'twelve inch
>gooshtis' [c, ali baba], i have finally managed to pinpoint the exact period
>of time from which they were transplanted:
>
>Homo Erectus  [50,000 BC if i remember correctly].
                ~~~~~~

needs an extra zero (making the hypothesis even more plausible).
From: scemg@thor.cf.ac.uk ("M.G")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Saddam and Bush defeat
Date: 5 Nov 92 10:26:30 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College of Cardiff, Cardiff, Wales, UK
X-Mailer: Cardiff Computing Maths PP Mail Open News Gateway

From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Bush and Saddam

Javad Agha Writes:

This morning I heard that in Baghdad they are celebrating Bush's defeat.
It's ironic how the armies of 28 countries failed to overthrow the dictator
Saddam Hossein, yet it was the ballot which overthrew Bush.  Just goes to 
show how much more difficult change is in the absence of democracy. 

I think Iraqis should be mourning about their form of government instead.

Agha Javad
(sarjookheh baghghal porharfeh)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Javad I think you are cleaver enough to know that the Iraqi people tried 
many times to get rid off the dictator Saddam, the latest was the uprising 
after the so called the Gulf war, but the same 28 countries mainly USA 
and the West stand by and helped Saddam to crush the uprising not to 
mentioned the (P.L.O) and the (M.K.O) who killed thousands of innocent 
women and chidren especially in the south.

M.G
Cardiff, Wales, U.K
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian