HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 22:18:06 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Karen Kay <LL23%NEMOMUS.BITNET%UGA.CC.UGA.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reflections on the matter of language change
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> "slang" is ordinary language not technical

hmmmm....i'm a linguist, and i talk about slang all the time.  i think
of it as a technical term.  gosh, i guess four degrees in lx isn't
enough to make me a real one!

> Though, my GUESS is that it means something like "words
> you cannot find in the dictionary".... though you cannot find 'morphosyntactic
> and no one would call that slang...maybe jargon.

this is a singularly bad definition...it all depends on the dictionary.
there are dictionaries in which you can find morphosyntax; try david
crystal...or the oed.

Karen
List-Angel and Linguist-at-Large

P.S. If I ever meet Frank Peters, linguist manque, I'm going to
kiss him till he's delirious.
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 12:56:28 -0400
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Rita <rita%EFF.ORG@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gleanings (39)
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>He also did one of the most remarkable Hamlets I've ever seen. Derek Jacobi is
>truly one of the world's finest stage actors.  He has that same easy ability as
>did Sir Lawrence Olivier of feeling comfortable in any acting medium, be it
>stage, screen or television.

        Not to mention an *exquisite* Henry IV...

Rita
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 11:38:34 +0200
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         torkel%SICS.SE@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              10 Apr 92 20:09:33 -0500. <9204110243.AA26015@sics.se>

  Frank writes:

>In the course of his research into computability Turing demonstrated
>that any computable mathematical problem (some aren't...Kurt Godel
>proved that) could be computed by a mechanical device with a certain
>minimal set of features.

  Alas, Turing demonstrated nothing of the kind. Furthermore, Godel's
work did not at all concern computability in the relevant sense, but
undecidable propositions, which is another concept.

  >The theory and practice behind actually BUILDING one didn't seem to
  >interest him in the least.

  On the contrary, Turing was very intimately involved in the actual building
of the first British computer.

  >Oh goody!  Finally a topic that I know something about.

  Hmm...
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 21:57:30 MST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Dan Lester <ALILESTE%IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fitting in
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              9 Apr 1992 08:54:00 HST from <MACMILLM%EWC.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>

On Thu, 9 Apr 1992 08:54:00 HST Michael E. Macmillan said:
>>Assistant Editor of 73 Magazine in the early 60's.   Now lets see who knows
>>what 73 Mag is.....
>>
>Ah, the old Wayne Green empire, unless I'm mistaken.  What's become of that
>guy?  Not being a ham (of that variety, anyway), I never read 73, but I
>did--much later than the early 60s, of course--read Microcomputing.  Green
>was always writing columns in which he rarely failed to grouse about how
>Byte had been stolen from him by an ex-wife or some such.
>
Still the Wayne Green empire.  Yes, he started Byte...and yes it was
apparently/purportedly taken/stolen by his former wife, Virginia Green,
to whom he was married when I worked there.  At the time he was 42, she
21.  Beautiful.  Loved all his money.  Provided a kid.  Spent zillions
on horses and dogs.  He spent his on Porsches and world traveling.  this
was in the days of bathtub Porsches, 356c and such.  Neat.

That is a long and interesting part of my life, now almost 30 years ago.
73 is still doing pretty well....at least as well as the whole ham radio
hobby.  I am still N5CAB (after about a dozen other calls), but haven't
been active in longer than I wanna tell the FCC.

One of my funnier memories of 73 days in Peterborough NH (hoome of the`
world's first tax-supported free public library) was of 1963 summer...and
Virginia Green, who could have been a centerfold in Playboy, would go down
to the Grand Onion to get groceries.....she always wore painted on pants
and a tshirt or tight sweater.....absolutely nothing else...except sandals
on occasion.   For those pre-hippie days, it was pretty shocking stuff
in small town NH.  They were used to weird artists from the MacDowell
Colony, but not those who "got it" and "flaunted it".

Enough, already....gotta hear the latest on the "jerry brown scandal".

dan
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 12:39:58 -0400
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Rita <rita%EFF.ORG@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Bumper sticker: Play it safe...
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>When my house is clean, a  rarity, I have everyone over. I don't discrim
>inate on the basis of enrollment status.:)  When I was an undergraduate,
>I never went to a professor's house till I became a Japanese major. In
>general, French people are just not as chummy as Japanese.  There are
>fewer of us, and I think that's a major factor.


        Hm.  I read a short story not too long ago by Mary Swick (it was
in her book published by the Iowa Writing Program) about those French
students.  It is basically about some undergrad who works for one of
the French profs. in her department, get's invited to her apartment for
some dead snails along with a poet from the Engl. dept., and they have
this series of three-fold sorties.  Very French.  In the end the student
goes off to marry her high school sweetheart and join the Peace Corp.
Very 60's.
        I got the impression that those French types were VERY Chummy...

Czarina
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 13:39:44 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         GUBERT%UKCC.UKY.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: tarmac rugrats

Traditional wisdom is in this instance correct:  Living well *is*
the best revenge.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 16:25:38 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         BGRISSOM%UKCC.UKY.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: fresh meat
              17 Apr 1992 11:43:37 CDT from <tushar@ZAPHOD.UCHICAGO.EDU>

> Jeez, you see my reasons for thinking that the whole bloody
>list is conspiring against me. It's obvious that there is no place for
>any kind of seriousness here.
>
>Goodbye,
>tushar

 Tushar, I am only understanding you about half the time, but
 that is quality time.  I am not liking the finality in your
 closing.  I am hoping that this feeling will pass over into
 some kind of accepting serenity.

 brad
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:46:00 GMT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         WERTSJ <WERTSJ%DIALOG%MCIMAIL.COM@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Conversation Stoppers

>...and when I'm introduced, they askme, "So what do you do?" and I say, "I
>teach" and they say "What?" and I say, "Computer Science" and , to use the
>phraseology of Ronin: CONVERSATION STOPPETH.

Try telling someone you do "actuarial work".  I've never seen so many
blank faces in my life.  Except perhaps now...I haven't been working
here long enough to come up with a good, pithy explanation for what
I do now.  They ask what the company I work for does, and "online
information retrieval" just doesn't cut it.  But then, saying, "We
have lots of databases on all kinds of subjects, that customers
dial into with their computers..." gets messy. Ugh.

Rita, how do you explain the function of EFF?  (to those who really
aren't *plugged* in?)

Jill

**************************************************
Jill Werts                 (wertsj%dialog@mci.com)
Dialog Information Services
   (...uh-oh, it's another librarian!)
**************************************************
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 12:51:28 -0400
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         droby%NOVA.TCS.TUFTS.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Aha
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              10 Apr 92 06:25:48 CDT." <9204100729.aa18948@Nova.TCS.Tufts.EDU>

Says "Natalie Maynor" <maynor@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>:
>I just found some delivery-error messages NOT from France:
>
>> uga.cc.uga.edu unable to deliver following mail to recipient(s):
>>     <MAYNOR@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
>> uga.cc.uga.edu unable to connect for 3 days to recipient host.

Bet you found a few like that for nova.tcs.tufts.edu too.  But I think they all
eventually got through.  At any rate, I've got enough that I'm not going to beg
for more.

- Don R
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:21:23 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Tushar Samant <tushar%ZAPHOD.UCHICAGO.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gleanings (38)

> Don't know about the second part, but ETAOINSHRDLU is (supposedly) the
> frequency order of the most common letters in written English.

Now, now do you see why I signed as "tushar, lone id" when we were
talking about letter frequencies ? See the joke, my dear sirs !

tushar
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 15:38:08 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Evelyn <R3EJD%AKRONVM.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: nouns

On Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:35:00 MDT The Ronin said:
>Offereth      torkel@SICS.SE
>
>>   Well, I guess that is so. But the fact should not be bruited about, if it
>> prompts people to awful puns. (All puns are awful.)
>
>     Then how do you withstand reading this list?  I thought that puns
>were a requirement.
>
I agree with the Ronin.  Look at all the people who used puns:  Shakespeare,
Groucho Marx, S.J. Perelman, Noel Coward, George S. Kaufman, ....
If puns are good enough for Groucho, then they're good enough for me.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 08:39:58 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Carol Goodson <CGOODSON%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Tarmac rugrats
              7 Apr 1992 20:09:23 -0500 from <harwood@TENET.EDU>

Nancy, I had a cool mother too...I always felt like I was competing with her,
actually... she was so neat... I'd bring friends home and they'd end up
being infatuated with HER!  It took me some years to overcome--happened as I
got older myself and was able to perceive her faults and my virtues more
clearly...and the relationship became equalized....
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 15:12:55 -0400
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         droby%NOVA.TCS.TUFTS.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Zariski
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              14 Apr 92 01:31:18 CDT." <9204140458.aa05595@Nova.TCS.Tufts.EDU>

Says Tushar Samant <tushar@ZAPHOD.UCHICAGO.EDU>:
>
>This leaves Count Bourbaki, who will be covered in another volume.
>
	Actually, I don't think Akio gleaned Bourbaki (or the others for that
matter).  But he's certainly deserving of a volume.
>
>>>PS  The internationally acclaimed treatment of Atiyah and Macdonald has
>>>now been digitally recorded. Copies of the file can be got by email.
>>
>>	Where do I send?  I need this!
>
>I only attempted a feeble joke about "digitally recorded." Just photocopy
>the relevant pages (the unspoken violation of law which all students commit.)
>(The other joke is mentioning "prime characteristic" somewhere.)
>
>tushar

Ok, I was joking too - I already have the non-digital form.  It's a wonderful
text, mostly because the accompanying "solutions to the problems" book, were
it to exist, would be about 100 times larger than the book.

I'm putting off answering the gleaning of KAN.  Maybe I'll post a definition
from one of my textbooks tonight when I get home.  But that'll only add a new
layer of unintelligible category theory.

- Don R
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 17:09:08 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Evelyn <R3EJD%AKRONVM.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Elvis stamp

I wish they would have let us vote on those duck stamps!  The USPS
could have found a good duck picture.  Instead, they found one that
looks as if the duck's on drugs!

Evelyn  (just blowing some steam)
From: LL23%NEMOMUS.BITNET%UGA.CC.UGA.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU (Karen Kay)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Gleanings (38)
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:27:23 GMT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> we should speak... and it all finally died out (I understand) with the
> widespread dissemination of dictionaries, which serve almost the same purpose.

Huh?  They ain't got no dictionaries in France or what?

Also, Japan makes the best dictionaries in the entire world and they
have the Mombusho to tell them how to speak and write.No way does
one substitute for the other.

Karen
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 17:14:42 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> >And how has it helped you to know what a direct or indirect object is?
>
> I learned what the rules were--things in the accusative case were the
> direct object, and I had to learn how to integrate those words into
> the rest of the sentence.  Indirect objects are in the dative case,
> and my understanding of them worked just the same way as did my
> understanding of direct objects.  For the first time in Latin I was
> shown the rules as to how to determine what the part of speech
> was--not just shown examples and iron-clad conditions.

Sorry about my poorly worded question!  I didn't mean how has Latin
helped you to know what a direct or indirect object is.  I meant how
has that knowledge helped you in life.  What has its value been for
you?

> >That sounds serious.  Did you simply omit verbs, did you speak in the
> >present tense all the time, or did you speak in infinitive forms?
>
> No, no, I meant that I didn't know how when to use the past
> pluperfect, the future pluperfect, etc.  I just used 'had'
> generically.

You mean that you used "had" for everything?  That's interesting.
How did you manage to get your ideas across?  And how did you pick up
that odd habit?
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 23:29:44 -0500
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood%TENET.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: flipping channels
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

On Tue, 14 Apr 1992, The Ronin wrote, subtly and with unscrupulous cunning:

>      But of course, I already said I had a Machiavellian side.  I just
> try to keep it reined in among friends.
>
> The Ronin

That's nice...but I'm sure it does come in handy from time to time.
ndh
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Original_To:  BITNET%"WORDS-L@UGA.BITNET"
Original_cc:  WHITERJ
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 15:06:00 MDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         The Ronin <WHITERJ%MSCD.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Pencils (was Re: TV)

Angeleth      Karen Kay <LL23%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

> >      Obviously you are communicating in a language for which you are
> > 'directionally challenged'.  That, or else you need to learn to use a
> > harder lead in your pencil.
>
> I dunno, I'm left-handed and my favorite writing instrument is a #1
> pencil (the soft ones).
>
> But then I write Japanese.

     Since you don't have the same problems as Aaron, then obviously
you aren't using a language for which you are 'directionally
challenged'.  It is interesting that the responses were concerned with
'right-to-left' vs 'left-to-right', and totally ignored the question
of whether the language's order went vertically or horizonntally.

The Ronin
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 14:00:41 -0400
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Rita <rita%EFF.ORG@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The Nashanul Akadame, agin
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>What is wrong with obscuring relationships between words (which is what
>phonetic spelling will apparently do) ? Exactly where is a fact like
>"X and Y share a root" useful ? In my opinion the only objection to
>phonetic spelling is the first one: i.e. there is no canonical pronunciation
>to accord to. It is good enough.

        Becuz it would make the vocabulary part of the SAT *much* harder
than it is already, of course!  Which is a practical application of
figuring out the meaning of a word by using its root.  If I know what the
"morph" means, I can figure out such terms as "polymorph," "morphology,"
"metamorphasis," etc.  But you're just teasin' ain't ya, Tush?

Rita
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 12:28:39 -0400
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Rita <rita%EFF.ORG@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re:
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>NEW LOW;

        A "new low" is when you reach new depths -- usually in the sense of
failure.  "His self-esteem is at a new low now that his girlfriend
dumped him."  "Sales of WordPerfect are at a new low."

>TO ZAP IT TO YA;

        Sounds like an idiom for sending e-mail.

>ETH'ED

        Never heard this one.  Probably something to do with
ethernet'ed, or another expression for sending e-mail.


Rita
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 13:15:00 PDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Emily Horning <ECZ5EJH%UCLAMVS.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>

> You can always count on college kids.  20 names, and only who has
> anything to say, and she is 16 on the list.
>                               Bill Sjostrom

Welcome back, Bill! How was France? and did the E.S.S.E.C. live up to your
expectations?
                     Emily
                     ECZ5EJH@UCLAMVS
                     ECZ5EJH@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 14:57:06 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Carol Goodson <CGOODSON%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>

On Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:58:58 EDT <QXN148@URIACC> said:
>have Bob Hope recieving an honorary degree and giving a speech.  Students on
>campus are mad because they say that they do not associate themselves with him.
****I held a similar opinion until I read that Woody Allen admires him more
than almost any other comedian, and imitates his style... I love
Woody Allen, hope to write my MA thesis on him, so have been moved to take
another look at Hope, admittedly difficult...
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 10:34:14 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         C0229%UNIVSCVM.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: English geeks (was Re: in-jokes and such

On Tue, 7 Apr 1992 22:26:00 MDT The Ronin said:
>
>     My former boss claims that he worked at a shop where everyone was
>a music major turned programmer.  Himself included.
>
>The Ronin

Yep, that's me.  Whenever anyone says to me, 'Well, of course it makes
perfect sense that musicians would make good programmers since math and
music are so closely related," I explain that my theory as to why you find
a lot of musicians-turned-programmers is that it's hard to make a living
as a musician.  Especially if you want a health plan, too! :-)

By the way, if any of you have any thoughts on that music-math relationship
I'd be very interested in hearing them.  It's something that's often repeated,
but seldom supported by those who repeat it.  Someone on this list must really
know something about it.

Janet
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 18:14:00 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "815 Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980"
 <TA0SHK1%NIU.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      hockey strike

The hockey strike may be ending.
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:33:13 MST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Dan Lester <ALILESTE%IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: Re: That "Come Hither" Blank Stare
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              5 Apr 1992 15:01:46 EDT from
              <N690012%UNIVSCVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>

On Sun, 5 Apr 1992 15:01:46 EDT barbara said:
>dan--and who is that professor who used to be in boise?? also--tell me more

   Ellen Crosby.   Used to be in our special collectoins before I was here.
Worked with several of my colleagues, and I met her on one of her trips
here.

>re your techie lists--i am not so interested in circ since i want to work with
>rare materials, but the others might be of use to me.

      The other lists are cdromlan, dealing with cdroms on networks
and advanc-l, dealing with the Geac Advance library system.  Probabgly
neither of them fit your interests.

    If you don't have a copy of the pacs-l list of library-related lists,
both bitnet and internet lists, let me know and I'll toss you one.
Ellen probably has one, as well as other folks there having them.


dan   in potatoland
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
From: bayla@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Bayla Singer)
Subject: Re: Gleanings (38
Organization: Independent scholar
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 00:33:54 GMT

Mama Primate writes:

>Matter of fact, you can read (or understand) *any* language,
>as long as you already know what the person is saying. A waiter
>in a hotel in Kenya walks up to you with a tray carrying cups of
>tea, and says, "Xxxxxx xxxxx xx xxx Chai, Mama?" and you can
>confidently say, "Thank you, I already had some tea."

Reminds me -- about 30 years ago, when my husband and I lived in a medical
school dorm, I was waiting for the elevator one morning at the same time as
a large, elegantly costumed black man.  (My uneducated guess was Nigerian
or simlar.)  "Good Morning," said I.  "XXXXXXXX XXXXXXX?" asked he.
"Excuse me?" "XXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX?" "Yes," said I.  "I don't think you
understood what I said" said he, in perfectly comprehensible standard
English.  I did the quickest recovery of my life (I'm *not* good at this,
God was kind to me that morning), and said "I was sure I could agree with
anything you said, sir."  Silence thereafter.

--bayla
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