From: as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.drwho
Subject: Re: I like Ace, dag-nabbit!
Date: 10 Nov 92 04:57:44 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <1992Nov9.220247.17414@wam.umd.edu> jblum@next00clab.wam.umd.edu (The Maven) writes:

>In article <1992Nov8.212603.2978@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>  
>as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik) writes:
>> In <1992Nov8.133755.8498@iscsvax.uni.edu> morgans@iscsvax.uni.edu  
>writes:

>> >Okay, I have had enough of the "I hate Ace" "I hate McCoy", time for  
>some 
>> >responses.

>Ditto, Siobahn.  You said it so well that I don't think there's much
>else for me to say in this debate / flamefest.

Hmm, seems you found quite a bit.

>As for Drew, on the other hand...
> 
>> I don't care whether I can relate to Ace.  I care whether I like her or  
>find
>> her interesting.  This is what makes a memorable character, as opposed  
>to an
>> identifiable character.

>Try _reading_ the posting, Drew.  Including your own.  In the posting
>Siobahn responded to, you accused Ace of not being real.  Siobahn says
>she is real.  So you pick up on a throwaway phrase of Siobahn's, that
>people can relate to Ace, and attack that.  Brilliant debating.

A "throwaway phrase" is hardly brilliant debating either.  Actually I think
being able to relate to Ace is a major point many people have made here. 
And I don't recall saying Ace wasn't real...although she *is* a fictional
character...but never mind.  The point is that I think my "attack" was
pretty damned relevant.  I read the post closely, thank you very much!


>We too care whether we like her or find her interesting.  We like her
>and find her interesting.  If you have no more to say other than the
>fact that you don't like her or find her interesting, kindly spare us
>the logic-chopping.

Well, seems to me this has been going back and forth for quite some time and
has mutated from a simple statement of opinion to a shouting match...I don't
believe there was any logic or anything concrete to *argue* at all.  I would
not have continued this so long if I hadn't been so viciously attacked; this
post is so condescending and insulting I can scarcely believe you had the
nerve to type it

> 
>> Again...I don't care.  Romana and Leela had it all over this pouting,
>> sullen, thoroughly irritating little brat.  Dysfunctional family or no,
>> screaming or no, she was just an abrasive character.

>As you've said, YOUR OPINION.  Which you have stated several times with
>a mininum of proof.  If that's all you have to say...

I now need *proof* to have an *opinion*?  What planet are *you* from?

>> >3. "She is worse than Adric" - Not in my book, Adric was just a poorly 
>> >developed character - Too Disney-like.
> 
>> She's still worse than Adric.  Adric had a certain boyish charm when at  
>his

>This debate is VERY quickly turning into "Yes she is" "No she isn't".
>I think the blame falls very heavily in your camp, because of statements
>like the above, and the below:

No, actually you place the blame in my camp because you find me obnoxious
and because you disagree with me.  Understandable, but hardly sensible.

>> best.  Ace, at *her* best, simply used ridiculous expressions of  
>approval
>> at which I spent lots of time snickering ("ace," "wicked").

>Has anyone cited the slang-heavy "Dragonfire" as Ace's best?  Not in
>all the posts I've waded through.  So what's the point to this statement?

Wade through some more.  I myself wrote that I liked Dragonfire because
it was the only episode where I though Ace was used realistically and
effectively.  The slang didn't enter into it, though.


>> This might have been nice if (a) she were charming enough for us to care
>> about her hangups, and (b) these hangups were resolved.  As far as I can
>> tell, her major step forward was losing her fear of water.  That's  
>character
>> development?

>Those scenes weren't about fear of water, it was about trusting herself.
>Before that scene, she was full of self doubt -- "What's wrong with me?"
>She felt like she was a bad person for hating her mother.  Diving into
>the water allowed her to test herself, and find that she could
>survive, bad feelings and all.  She didn't need to avoid the "dangerous
>undercurrents" in her own personality any more.  The end of "Fenric" is
>a classic use of a rebirth archtype and an association of themes
>(Man against Nature implying Man against Himself).  It seems you missed
>all this... so don't dismiss it to those of us who caught it.

>It's all spelled out in nice block letters in the book, btw.

We'll make a deal...I'll spare you "logic-chopping," a sin of which I am not
even guilty, and you spare me the high school English/psychobabble.

And did we see any visible, consistent change in Ace's personality after
this?  Not really, no.  After "Fenric's" credits rolled, she was just the
same, after all.

>Hopefully that was enough intellectual content to justify this posting,
>because from here on out it's just comments on this "debate".

Where did the intellectual content come from?  I didn't read any.
 
>> >Okay, there it is, some of my rationalizations for liking the character  
>of 
>> >Ace, McCoy's Doctor and the whole damn show.  And if you are going to 
>> >followup, plllllleeeeeeaaaaaaasssssseeeeeee  edit down the text, I am 
>> >getting tired of reading too much stuff in these debates.
> 
>> Too bad, deal with it.  If you don't want to read, don't bother to post.

>Maturity at its best.  Siobahn asks for a common courtesy, and a bit
>of standard netiquette, and you respond with an eloquent "Piss off."

As you know if you read a later followup, I apologized on this point.  Being
relatively new to the system, I was unaware of this "netiquette."  The
reason behind this was explained to me--it had sounded like laziness when it
was really economy--and I have endeavored to begin doing so, as you can see.
 
>In fact, was there any reason for this entire post of yours, other
>than to say for the umpteenth time that you can't stand Ace? 

Well, I added some reasons why I couldn't stand Ace.  Is there any reason
for this newsgroup, other than to say for the umpteenth time what we like
and don't like about Dr. Who?  It reduces to the same thing.

>> And may I point out that a million points of logic will not help me like
>> Ace.  I doubt that you care...so you can drop it unless you have a  
>stronger
>> purpose in mind than changing my opinion.  It seems everyone but me  
>loves
>> the little strumpet so why are you arguing?  I'm a Scorpio, I'm too  
>stubborn
>> for this sort of thing to work.  :)
> 
>> Drewcifer

>Guess not.

>Well, all I can say is that, judging by these posts, Drewcifer appears
>to be a very accurate, realistic, and convincing portrayal of a
>fifteen-year-old who doesn't know when to shut up.

>Flame off.

>--jon

Thanks, you're too kind.  That portrayal was brought about by an
eighteen-year-old who doesn't know when to shut up.  But at least I haven't
posted anything *this* rude yet.  Flame off yourself, sir.