From: psyctwo1@cc.newcastle.edu.au (PSYCTWO1)
Subject: Re: E. Timor & Indonesia
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 04:16:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec4.104038.26106@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, dewanto@cae.wisc.edu (Gaston Dewanto) writes:
> In article <1992Dec3.170010.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au> psyctwo1@cc.newcastle.edu.au (PSYCTWO1) writes:
>>
>>You still haven't countered my question on West Papua.  Why not?  What is
>>Indonesian right for invading West Papua?  Have West Papuans always been
>>Indonesian, and so are rightfully where they belong?
>>
> Until 1963, the Dutch still occupied the West Papua. During its imperialism,
> the Netherland East India included the West Papua as its colony.
> Since the Netherland East India became independent, than West Papua should
> be together with the rest of Indonesia. 

From that reasoning,we could look at Russia, and say that since it's boundaries
included what are now independant countries, that they should actually be a
part of Russia, along with Finland even.  Or Italy could lay claim to most of 
Western Europe and Northern Africa, because those areas were once part of the
Roman Empire.  To say "These are where the boundaries used to be" as a reason
for defining modern boundaries, is that wise?
 
>>
>>I am Australian.
>>
>>Yes, you are right of course, we should ban Aboriginies from drinking alcohol.
>>
> Yes, you should ban the Aborigin from drinking alcohol and at the same time
> you can drink it. Where is the freedom you are campaigning.

Actually, I was speaking sarcastically, since you said you'd give me sarcasm ;)

> I suggest that before you concern about other people, you take care your
> problem first. I don't see any action from the Australian government that

Land Rights are one...seen a map of Australia showing Aboriginal Land?  You
might be surprised.

> really helps the Aborigin. As far as I know, besides the alcoholism problem,

A lot of 'whites' also have that problem, but as a percentage of numbers, the
Aboriginal percentage is higher, yes.  But would they, and Aus as a whole, gain
anything from placing them on a prhibition?  We won't descriminate against
them by telling them they can't drink.

> they have higher criminal rate, lower education than the white people.

The criminal rate I can't comment on, as I have no figures or opinions, not 
being into crime myself, but as to education, it is improving.  They get 
special assistance in the form of Abstudy (a Government handout), and places
set aside for them in Universities, for those who wish to go on, provided
that they are capable of handling the workload (not saying they aren't, and 
I've also seen plenty of 'whites' who aren't).

> And I believe you do discriminate the non-white people, especially the Asian.

From my experience non-whites get as fair a go as anyone else, although there
are areas where this may not be the case - but then there are areas where I
might be descriminated against as well.  

> (I don't mean you personally, but your system).
> 
>>However, it is true that our ancestors invaded the country, but at the time
>>Europe was building empires, and invading lots of places.  That was 200+
>>years ago when we invaded, but Indonesia has been invading in the last 20
>>odd years, after empire building supposedly finished.  Papua New Guina is
>>in civil war with the Boganvillians (sp?) so, is Indonesia going to invade
>>there as well, since it is is 'geographically part of Indonesia', and there
>>is civil unrest, like in East Timor?
>>
> We never have any intention to invade Papua New Guinea.
> We did try to invade Malaysia, but we admit that what we did is wrong,

Would you have said that about E Timor if you had lost?

> and since then we keep good relation with Malaysia, even ethnically we are
> the same, not like you and the Aborigins.  And we support Brunei, 
> which is a very attractive target for invasion
> because of its oil and timber resources, to get its 
> full independence. 
>
> For me, it is very strange that the Australians are afraid of being invaded
> by Indonesia. We don't care about other countries, because we have too many
> domestic problems, which some of them are created by people from other
> countries who think that they know better than us about handling our problems,
> while at the same time they ignore the problems in their countries.
 
Sometimes, for numerous reasons, we can't see the problems that affect us, and
it needs to be pointed out to us.  Not just on an individual level, but on
a national level as well.  We all have problems, and no country is perfect.
Australia lacks the racist conflicts which mar many countries, although we are
not totally free of them.  As such, aren't we in quite a good position to
adivse others?  Australia has also not invaded other countries with the idea
of conquest, (although we have invaded other countries at the behest of other
nations, namely the UK and US) so we don't find ourselves needing to use guns
to keep people united, nor are they large repeated demonstrations against our
Government with calls to free various parts of our country.  Those problems we
do have, we are working on.  Our PM, Mr keating aknolegded the phlight of the
Aboriginies about a week ago, were you aware?  And all races in Australia can
live side by side with no real conflicts.

Well, enough from me for the year.  :)

I'll be going off the net for a few weeks over Chrissie, so I won't be around
till next year now.  If you wish to mail me, send to:
bw594@freenet-in-a.cwru.edu
and I'll get back to it sometime next year.  Else wait to you see me post
again, and I'll ear bash youse all some more.  ;)

Anyway, adious!!

(perhaps Selamat Tingal would be more appropriate - sorry for spelling ;)

Fal.