From: peterw@cs.man.ac.uk (Peter Wake)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Storyteller System (Was:  WereVamp->Ars)
Date: 8 Oct 92 16:03:52 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Oct8.021119.26578@news.uiowa.edu>, durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.190650@cs.man.ac.uk> peterw@cs.man.ac.uk (Peter Wake) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct6.151740.28086@news.uiowa.edu>, urrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell) writes
>>The point is by trying to create a certain type of character
>>concept you can accidentally create a *monster*.  On the other hand
>>NPCs and characters that you can create that look strong because they
>>have high stats and lots of high disciplines can easily fall to such a
>>monster.  
>
>Let's agree to disagree here, maybe?  I don't think I can convince
>you on this point.  It seems to come back to something I've been
>saying a lot -- Vampire is different.  This kind of problem will
>fade away as you get used to the game.  After my share of mistakes,
>I have a much better idea of what a monster looks like.
OK I dont' expect to convince you either.  I think I understand your
perspective.  You've come to like the game and you don't worry about
the 'bugs' 'cos to you they're 'feaures'.

My aim is to show that White Wolf are selling only half a game: the
background without the rules to make it work.  I think that's bad
practice.  There are companies worse, but Vampire etc. is a good idea
ruined by things that are so glaringly obvious that they should have
been fixed long before it went to the printers.

I think I'm as used to Vampire as I'm ever likely to get.  We played
for about six months.  By the end of that time we'd changed the combat
system, the difficulty system, the experience system and many of the
disciplines.  As I've said over and over again, I don't like having
paid White Wolf for half a game.  Far too much time was wasted arguing
over how best to fix the various problems.

If Vampire was a car you'd want your money back!
:-)
PJW:  "Hey I bought this car and the heater don't work, sometimes the steering
       goes crazy and the pistons don't even fit in the cylinder head."
BD:   "You'll get used to it, it's just quirky that's all, different,
       know what I mean?"
PJW:  "I had to do lot of work to get it to run at all."
BD:   "Well, you get back what you put in.  You should be happy"
:-)

You forgot to mention anything about getting used to...
>>Fact is Sta 7 is a million times better than Sta
>>6 while Sta 8 is *no* better than 7 at all!  This is not caused by
>>Munchkins, this is caused by lousy rules and you don't have to be a
>>Munchkin to appreciate that.

Here's my list of things that I wanted in Vampire (and will not
pay for in Vampire II.  They've ripped me off enough times).

A proper contents page.
An index.
Background and rules in different chapters.
A combat system.
A difficulty system that works with the rest of the rules.
  One which can cope with 'theoretic' difficulties over 10 which
  the rules often generate.  There are three ways to do this.
  Work them out for yourself.  They form a continuum.
More careful description of the disciplines.  Particulary what
  happens when applied against each other.  There are so many
 vaguaries and contradictions.  If they don't want to provide
  a rule for something they should make it clear instead of leaving
  us looking for it.
No Chicago stuff in the book.  Instead more general sample characters
and more non-vampire stuff (more normal people and animals).

Better art for the smaller pictures.  The full page art is great.


*******************************************************************
As for that buffoon who said that Ghostbusters was written for 8 year
olds...  Obviously the games he plays have more rules so they are
better NOT. For the job they do (Toon style games) they're brilliant.
They encourage role-playing and you can learn them in a minute.  For
lightweight stuff they're better than Toon, Floating Vagabond or TFOS.
They were written by Sandy Petersen (CoC) and Greg Stafford (Glorantha)
which is quite a pedigree.  White Wolf has a long way to go before they
too can write for eight year olds :-)
--
Peter Wake

Just take a look at our latest model: the Werewolf.  We made some of the
pistons fit in the cylinder head and it's got a *great* paint finish...
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy