HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jhc@m2lll.uucp (James H. Coombs)
Subject: Re: Well, nice it was folks...
Reply-To: jhc@m2lll.UUCP (James H. Coombs)
Organization: IRIS - Brown University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 21:52:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.195039.13803@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> thomasp@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Patrick Thomas) writes:

>PenTops are not going to find *any* customers if they don't provide
>an alternative pointing mechanism besides the pen. Look for NCR's
>FingerMouse as an excellent complementary device.

Justification?  What is the problem with the pen as a pointing device?
Pointing with a pen is much more direct than pointing with a mouse.

And isn't the pen actually more than a pointing device?  With a pen,
you can point and manipulate in a single gesture.  In PenPoint, for
example, Xing over a document points at the document and specifies
deletion at the same time.

>PDAs are worthless if

I asked about "PDA" before, and the responses were frivolous.  Can you
expand this?  Is it pen-desk accessory?

>	* they don't provide cursive handwriting recognition

I agree that pen computing is worth less without cursive, but I can't
agree that it is worthless.  We all learned how to print in part
because printing is more readily recognized by people, and we
frequently have to print in order to ensure that others will be able to
read our writing.

So, where you demand cursive, then pen computers may not be useful
except as storage devices.  Where you demand or prefer printing, they
will be very useful without cursive recognition.

>	* they don't slip < 500$, < 1 pound 

How much do they cost now?  Are you saying they must cost less than
$500?  I thought at first that you meant "by $500".

>	* they don't hook up to available wireless communication means

Why is this essential?

>All of this is not going to happen until 1994. 

Possibly, but I don't have much hope for cursive recognition ever.  I
frequently can't recognize my own handwriting---at least when I have
written something hurriedly.  And many of us have difficulty with
other's handwriting until we have been trained through experience with
that person.  Of course, a computer that could recognize my handwriting
when I can't would be a valuable machine indeed.

--Jim
From: jfw@neuro.duke.edu (John F. Whitehead)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: Re: Well, nice it was folks...
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:57:35 GMT
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.

In article <1992Aug20.173156.16820@unlv.edu> edcrwfrd@unlv.edu 
	(Edward Crawford) writes:

>Since some people dont know what a PDA is... A PDA Stands
>for Personal Digital Assistant, which apple is planning to ship
>in January.

According to a recent MacWeek, John Sculley has said it is delayed
its PDA, Newton, until mid-/late-1993.

>Someother stuff: Apple is concentrating first on making the PDA
>work with IBMS and secondly connecting it with the mac as there are
>more PC users.

According the to prototypes reviewed in MacWeek, MacUser, and MacWorld,
this is not true: it will have an Apple serial port (9-pin DIN
connector for links with AppleTalk networks, printers, and modems).
It will also get (though perhaps not for the first generation one)
an infrared system to interface with Macs or PCs that will allow you
to exhange data, back up, and write new applications for it.

-- 
 ________________________________________________________________________
|   John      jfw@neuro.duke.edu          Duke University Medical Center |
| Whitehead   jfw@well.sf.ca.us           Department of Neurobiology     |
|________________________________________ Durham, North Carolina ________|
From: daven@notable.com (Dave Newman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: Re: Context switch on pen... idea
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 17:12:41 PST
Organization: Notable Technologies, Inc.
Reply-To: daven@notable.com
X-Mailer: uAccess LITE - Macintosh Release: 1.5v4


In article <1992Aug21.181238.19837@pony.Ingres.COM> (comp.sys.pen), rion@Ingres.COM (Rion Cassidy (x3357) OGT) writes:
| In article <1992Aug20.212708.22109@bert.eecs.uic.edu> artn@bert.eecs.uic.edu (Ellyn Sandor) writes:
| >	Does anyone else think this would be a good idea?  What sort of
| >context changing can you think of?  How about a two-sided pen, sort of
| >like flipping a pencil over to use the eraser?  
| >
| >			Stephan Meyers
| 
| Yes, I came up with this while at GRiD systems, but it turned out that
| Wang already had a patent on it.  I am surprised that no one is interested
| in implementing this way.  It seem so natural.

I've often wanted a "eraser" end to my pen, especially when using a notetaker
application such as GO's MiniNote. When the paint programs begin to show
up, I think users will appreciate an eraser end even more.

--Dave

-----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Newman                 |  AOL:      AFC Tinman
Artillery Spotter           |  ALink:    TINMAN
Notable Technologies, Inc.  |  CIS:      70743,3323
Voice:    510.208.4449      |  internet: daven@notable.com
FAX:      510.444.4493      |  
-----------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
From: edcrwfrd@unlv.edu (Edward Crawford)
Subject: Re: Context switch on pen... idea
Organization: UNLV
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 22:45:58 GMT

If im not mistaken, Apple's Newton uses a two sided pen, one side for
writing, the other side for highlighting.....

Eddie

Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
From: thomasp@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Patrick Thomas)
Subject: Well, nice it was folks...
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:50:39 GMT

Anybody out there ? Silence on the list might be the manifestation that
there is a hell lot of work done out there in terms of pen-computing. Might
also reflect the thought that, as Zachman puts it, Pen-Computing is 
braindead.

Fact is that Notepads (Pen Tablets a la NCR, SL, TriGem) have not
*really* generated money. And worse, that (including Momenta) they
have alienated potential customers.

No wonder that everybody's trying to jump on two new bandwagons:
PenTops and PDA's. This time, it might well be a good idea to
think about what customers need and are prepared to spare money
for, instead of playing technogames. I remember well :) the bashing
I got from Momenta last december, when I stated here that..

"...blablabla..but I don't know whos going to buy it [the PenTop]".

It went all the way from John Rizzo over to Momentas chief of european
operations, Juergen Tepper, to a magazine I'm working for as a
freelance. No further comment on that.

So, those still believing in Pen-Computing now turn their attention
to companies like Samsung, Dell, IBM, GRiD, Dauphin, ZDS (PenTops) and
Samsung, EO, Apple, Tandy (PDAs).

Now for the pennyworth:

PenTops are not going to find *any* customers if they don't provide
an alternative pointing mechanism besides the pen. Look for NCR's
FingerMouse as an excellent complementary device.

PDAs are worthless if

	* they don't provide cursive handwriting recognition
	* they don't slip < 500$, < 1 pound 
	* they don't hook up to available wireless communication means

All of this is not going to happen until 1994. 

Hope you're patient.

Good luck,

Patrick



PenTops and PDA's
From: jfw@neuro.duke.edu (John F. Whitehead)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: Re: Well, nice it was folks...
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:47:27 GMT
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.

In article <1992Aug19.215251.16377@cs.brown.edu> jhc@m2lll.UUCP 
	(James H. Coombs) writes:

>... I don't have much hope for cursive recognition ever.  I
>frequently can't recognize my own handwriting---at least when I have
>written something hurriedly.

But shouldn't it be easier to recognize your handwriting if it 
figures it out *as you write it*?  If it watches what direction
you write your letters in -- as opposed to trying to decode a
bitmapped mess -- it should be able to figure it out not by the
"ink" you left but by the path you were taking.

-- 
 ________________________________________________________________________
|   John      jfw@neuro.duke.edu          Duke University Medical Center |
| Whitehead   jfw@well.sf.ca.us           Department of Neurobiology     |
|________________________________________ Durham, North Carolina ________|
From: david@llustig.palo-alto.ca.us (David Schachter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: Penpoint mailing list administration caught up?  I hope so.
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 15:40:43 PDT
Organization: Greenwire Consulting, Palo Alto, CA, USA

If you asked to join the PenPoint developers mailing list, you should have
received a Welcome message from me by now.  If you haven't received the mes-
age, your request has been lost in the mail; please resend it to the admin-
istrative alias penpoint-request@llustig.palo-alto.ca.us.  (The mailing list
was recently moved to a new machine, hence this unusual posting.)


Here's the boilerplate describing the mailing list:

Someone asked for a posting on the whereabouts of the PenPoint mailing list.
Here 'tis.  The list was created on January 25, 1992 and now has one hundred
members, some of which are gateways masking the true number of list members.
The list is for active developers only, please.  Comments, questions, and
concerns should be sent to the administrative alias noted below, as usual.

Other sources of information include the GO forum on CompuServe, which is the
only official, GO-supported communications path I know of, the Worldwide Pen-
Point Developers Organization run by Paul Williams (paulw@netcom.com), and the
Software Entrepreneurs Forum "Pen Computing Special Interest Group," which is
relevant mostly to folks in the San Francisco (California, USA) Bay Area.  Of
course, the Usenet comp.sys.pen newsgroup is another source of information
about PenPoint and other approaches to pen-computing.  GO is in Foster City,
California, USA, in the 415 telephone area code.  For general information on
Internet mailing lists, see the news.answers news group.

Below is the original list creation message, posted to comp.sys.pen.

Date: 25 Jan 92 08:00:16 GMT

I've created "penpoint" and "penpoint-request" at llustig.palo-alto.ca.us.  The
former is a mailing list for technical discussions of the PenPoint operating
system from GO Corporation and the latter is for requests to be added to the
list, deleted from it, and other administrative stuff.  The list is run as a
simple mail reflector: mail to penpoint@llustig.palo-alto.ca.us is re-sent to
everyone on the list.  Email to the mailing list is saved in an archive file at
llustig.

To keep the technical value of the list high and the cost to operate it low, I
request you do NOT ask to be added to the list unless you are actively working
with PenPoint.  Questions about programming with PenPoint are welcome but
questions such as "What is PenPoint?" and "Why is pen computing a good thing?"
belong more in a forum such as comp.sys.pen.  Reprints from the GO CompuServe
forum are welcome as long as they don't run afoul of copyright restrictions.

Please send administrative requests to the penpoint-request alias.

Thank you.

_____________________________________________________________________________
David Schachter                                 david@llustig.palo-alto.ca.us
801 Middlefield Road, #8                  ...!{mips,decwrl,sgi}!llustig!david
Palo Alto, CA  94301-2916                 After 10 am, voice: +1 415 328 7425
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
From: dale@cec1.wustl.edu (Dale Frye)
Subject: Re: Context switch on pen... idea
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:32:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.212708.22109@bert.eecs.uic.edu> artn@bert.eecs.uic.edu (Ellyn Sandor) writes:
>	One thing that has hit me about the pen in pen computing
>(in my opinion, pen computing is a done deal, its just waiting for
>the hard/software to catch up.  I'm not happy about it since I type
>well, but I'll get used to it) is that the pen is used only as a
>pointing device.  After all, you've got this thing in your hand,
>and a lot of fingers on it.
>	Mice have buttons.  Why can't a pen have a button?
>	I am picturing the sort of button you use on a ball point pen
>at the top of the pen to click the ink thingie into and out of writing
>position.
>	I think a button at the top of the pen, usable with the thumb,
>would be ideal for some sort of "context switch" within applications.
>For example, one mode for creating text <click> another mode for editing.
>Perhaps there would be some sort of LED or even a mechanical indicator
>of mode (do pens have batteries in them?)
>	Does anyone else think this would be a good idea?  What sort of
>context changing can you think of?  How about a two-sided pen, sort of
>like flipping a pencil over to use the eraser?  Maybe the pen-clicker
>could switch the computer on, or switch between two application (LED on=
>go to schedule/phonebook mode, LED off=go to my favourite application 
>(Mathematica, etc).  It seems like it would be quick and intuitive for
>choosing an either/or situation...
>
>			Stephan Meyers

Pens do have buttons. In fact every pen I have (except the one that came
with Go's Lombard tablet) has at least one button. Frankly, I hate the button.
It interfers with the grip of the pen. And in Pen Windows can cause all kinds
of problems as you're trying to write and the button is accidently pushed.

A button on the opposite end could be another matter. Go puts down the idea
insisting that everything must be down with gestures. However, our users
(kids, age 2 and up) find the idea of drawing (with ink) to delete something
they just drew (with ink) as counter-intuitive. (It feels funny) They are
use to using an eraser. Some adults have the same conceptual problem.
Note: the kids have no problem deleting things that were already there
(i.e. icons, etc) with gestures. They get a kick out of drawing an 'X' on
something and watching it disappear. The problem is with deleting something
they just drew.

Dale Frye
Silicon Paper Lab
Washington University in St. Louis


Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen,sci.electronics
From: kdarling@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling)
Subject: Re: PCMCIA Specs?
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:18:08 GMT

kdarling@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes:
>orchard@informatik.uni-ulm.de (John Orchard) writes:
>>Does anyone know where we might be able to get the mechanical, electrical
>>and timing specs of the various kinds of PCMCIA slot?
>>Presumably the address or phone number of the PCMCIA organization itself
>>would be sufficient.
>
>I recently saved off this address which was posted on sci.electronics:
>
> PCMCIA
> 1030B East Duane Ave
> Sunnyvale, CA USA 94086
> 408-720-0107

In addition, a gentleman sent email saying that there's a PCMCIA BBS:

 408-720-9388
From: artn@bert.eecs.uic.edu (Ellyn Sandor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: Context switch on pen... idea
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:27:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: bert.1992Aug20.212708.22109
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago


	One thing that has hit me about the pen in pen computing
(in my opinion, pen computing is a done deal, its just waiting for
the hard/software to catch up.  I'm not happy about it since I type
well, but I'll get used to it) is that the pen is used only as a
pointing device.  After all, you've got this thing in your hand,
and a lot of fingers on it.
	Mice have buttons.  Why can't a pen have a button?
	I am picturing the sort of button you use on a ball point pen
at the top of the pen to click the ink thingie into and out of writing
position.
	I think a button at the top of the pen, usable with the thumb,
would be ideal for some sort of "context switch" within applications.
For example, one mode for creating text <click> another mode for editing.
Perhaps there would be some sort of LED or even a mechanical indicator
of mode (do pens have batteries in them?)
	Does anyone else think this would be a good idea?  What sort of
context changing can you think of?  How about a two-sided pen, sort of
like flipping a pencil over to use the eraser?  Maybe the pen-clicker
could switch the computer on, or switch between two application (LED on=
go to schedule/phonebook mode, LED off=go to my favourite application 
(Mathematica, etc).  It seems like it would be quick and intuitive for
choosing an either/or situation...

			Stephan Meyers
-- 
--
Stephan Meyers | artn@uicbert.eecs.uic.edu
(Art)^n Laboratories, inventors of the Stealth Negative PHSCologram
(312) 567-3762
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
From: polly@leland.Stanford.EDU (polly siegel)
Subject: Re: Context switch on pen... idea
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 22:50:53 GMT

>	Mice have buttons.  Why can't a pen have a button?
>	I am picturing the sort of button you use on a ball point pen
>at the top of the pen to click the ink thingie into and out of writing
>position.

For whatever it's worth, the Momenta pen had such a button, so apparently
someone also thought it was a good idea...  Its button was on the side of the
pen, though, which is probably easier to use than having a button on the
top.  So your forefinger would naturally rest on the button while you were
using the pen.

- polly

--------
Polly Siegel
Stanford University
(polly@grover.stanford.edu)
From: cnc@Apple.COM (Chris Christensen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: Re: Context switch on pen... idea
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:25:45 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

jhc@m2lll.uucp (James H. Coombs) writes:

>How is this better than an icon that you tap on to change modes?

The idea is that if you have to have modes (and most current pen systems have 
them), "spring-loaded" modes are less obtrusive. It is like a drag with the
mouse button down, you very rarely get comeback to the computer and find that
you left it in the wrong mode, because when you take your finger off the 
button, the mode is ended. On the other hand, most of these modes are 
something that needs to be learned mechanical skills (ever watch your 
mother or 3 year old try to learn the drag with mouse button down) and 
could be less obvious than icons on the screen. 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
From: rion@Ingres.COM (Rion Cassidy (x3357) OGT)
Subject: Re: Well, nice it was folks...
Reply-To: rion@Ingres.COM 
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:55:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.195039.13803@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> thomasp@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Patrick Thomas) writes:
>Anybody out there ? Silence on the list might be the manifestation that
>there is a hell lot of work done out there in terms of pen-computing. Might
>also reflect the thought that, as Zachman puts it, Pen-Computing is 
>braindead.
>
Could also be that many of the pen-computing companies don't have net
connections.  I KNOW that GRiD doesn't; I used to work there.

>No wonder that everybody's trying to jump on two new bandwagons:
>PenTops and PDA's. 

Guess I've been away too long.  What's a PDA?

>PDAs are worthless if
>
>	* they don't provide cursive handwriting recognition

There are a lot of pen apps that do not use handwriting at all.  There
are other ways to get the info into the system than handwriting, and
many customers who are very happy with pen-based computers that only do
limited printed handwriting recognition.  Worthless? Hardly.  Would
cursive handwriting be a benefit? Of course.
From: cnc@Apple.COM (Chris Christensen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: Re: Context switch on pen... idea
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:19:48 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

>For whatever it's worth, the Momenta pen had such a button, so apparently
>someone also thought it was a good idea...  Its button was on the side of the
>pen, though, which is probably easier to use than having a button on the
>top.  So your forefinger would naturally rest on the button while you were
>using the pen.

The experience we (at Momenta) had with the side button was very mixed.
As expert users, the way that we were using it made it much easier to
use the machine, but the novice user almost invariably had problems
learning how to use it. This was impart because of the design of switch
and pen, but mostly because putting it where it is easy to activate makes
it in the way.

>How about a two-sided pen, sort of
>like flipping a pencil over to use the eraser?

Wang freestyle had just such a pen (the eraser switch was even pink). It 
seemed fairly intuitive to me when I used the system. Certainly it not 
have the problems of a side button. The use and function was clear.
From: jmunkki@vipunen.hut.fi (Juri Munkki)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: Re: Well, nice it was folks...
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:10:00 GMT
Reply-To: jmunkki@vipunen.hut.fi (Juri Munkki)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology

In article <1992Aug19.195039.13803@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> thomasp@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Patrick Thomas) writes:
>PDAs are worthless if
>	* they don't provide cursive handwriting recognition

Why do you feel this way? I never use cursive handwriting.

I don't like pens for writing, but I'm not planning on doing any word
processing with a pen. I'm happy if I can write a short note or two
and use a few customized PDA applications.

-- 
  Juri Munkki					       Windsurf: fast sailing
 jmunkki@hut.fi					      Macintosh: fast software
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen,sci.electronics
From: kdarling@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling)
Subject: Re: PCMCIA Specs?
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 01:59:00 GMT

orchard@informatik.uni-ulm.de (John Orchard) writes:
>Does anyone know where we might be able to get the mechanical, electrical
>and timing specs of the various kinds of PCMCIA slot?
>Presumably the address or phone number of the PCMCIA organization itself
>would be sufficient.

I recently saved off this address which was posted on sci.electronics:

 PCMCIA
 1030B East Duane Ave
 Sunnyvale, CA USA 94086
 408-720-0107

Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
From: edcrwfrd@unlv.edu (Edward Crawford)
Subject: Re: Well, nice it was folks...
Organization: UNLV
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 17:31:56 GMT

Since some people dont know what a PDA is... A PDA Stands
for Personal Digital Assistant, which apple is planning to ship
in January. This is not a macintosh. It runs on an Acorn 601(?) which
runs about 1.5 to 2 times faster than a Mac IIfx (40 mhzs 68030) and
uses about 1/2 watt of power. This machine will ship at around 700.
Apple claims that out of the box Newton (apples name for their pda)
will have a 90% recognition but it will learn your style and get
better. The PDA will be fully appletalk compatible, including serial
connections and infared connections (future models will have better
forms of connection)...

Someother stuff: Apple is concentrating first on making the PDA
work with IBMS and secondly connecting it with the mac as there are
more PC users.
Apple has licensed the tech to other companies, such as Toshiba,
allowing for clones.
A cursive program should be available after Newton Ships

Oh and Newton is scheduled to ship the January.


Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: rtwall@eos.ncsu.edu (RICHARD TODD WALL)
Subject: Connecting a 3b1 & a Novell LAN
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 04:28:29 GMT

	I'm thinking about connecting my AT&T 3B1 to my Novell 3.11 LAN 
at work.  Does anyone know if this is posible, and if it is possible, what do
I need to get to do it???

	I'm interested in NFS, telnet, etc...

	Any help would be greatly appreciated...

	Thanks...


o o ______           _     _____  _  _ o o "I'm in the car park."
' '   /       /   / ' )   /      // // ' ' "What are you doing in the car park?     / ______/ __/   / / / __.  // //      "Parking cars, what else does one do
   _/ (_) (_/_(_/_  (_(_/ (_/|_</_</        in a car park....................."
            -> todd@beretta.bacchus.org || rtwall@eos.ncsu.edu <-