HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:55:19 GMT
Reply-To: jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Organization: Teradata Corp., El Segundo, CA

In article <1992Dec11.180913.20442@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <1568@tdat.teradata.COM> jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec7.205912.5188@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>>>Every Arabic language paper in the city printed the fact that the
>>>"Temple Mount Faithful" had been prohibited from marching.  They
>
>>Why is this compelling?  If there wasn't a conflict there wouldn't be a
>>problem of trust in the first place.  In any event, the "Temple Mount
>>Faithful" _did_ gather, and _did_ march.  They were stopped out of sight
>>of the plaza.  They were not shot, nor tear-gassed, nor arrested.
>
>They also cooperated with the police when told they would not be
>allowed to enter the plaza.

Well, consistency may be the hobgoblin of small minds... but if you insist
that Muslims should not assemble because they "knew" the march was prohibited
then shouldn't you insist on the same for the "Temple Mount Faithful"?
Particularly since the latter were intending on marching.

Note that the Muslims cooperated with the police also - until they were 
tear-gassed.  The marchers were not tear-gassed, just as Orthodox stoning
cars on the Sabbath are not shot at.

>>What "riot"?  The "police riot"?  The Muslims gathered to counter-protest
>>were deliberately or accidently tear-gassed and responded by driving the
>>militia from the plaza but not before one of there number was shot dead.
>
>You fail to mention that the "crowd" was counter-protesting by
>dropping rocks on the heads of the Jews praying below them, at the
>Western Wall.  I was in Jerusalem that day, and saw the cleanup crews.
>There was at least one truckload of rocks taken away, most of which
>were larger than fist sized.

Untrue.  Quite a few rocks were thown over the walls landing in the empty
square _but_ well after the events you quote from my posting.

>According to reports there were barrels full of rocks placed so that
>the "counter-protest" could throw rocks more easily.

Lies, probably spread by the militia to cover up their misdeeds.  As I
stated else where this is confirmed by the Israeli judicial report.

Adam, you do need to do some reading on the massacre before post again.

Jon.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 04:50:41 GMT

In article <4698@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <BzBAHI.4vs@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>
>>They found his body bound and strangled in a ditch outside of 
>>Jerusalem.  Another victim of peaceful demonstrations by peace-loving
>>Arabs who want NOTHING more than than to live in peace.  Right.
>
>His death is on Israel's hands.  Israel did not want to exchange him
>for Sheikh Ahmed (who is paralyzed and going blind, which is, I presume,
>very humanitarian on Israel's part).

	Of course he was convicted of organizing the assisinations of
	Palestinians, not Israelis, so I guess killing Palestinians
	is ok?  Is this part of the intifada?


	Geoff

>
>Anisa
-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:41:35 GMT

gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin) writes:

>Body of the Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano has been found. No details yet ---
>my wife phoned me to say she heard it on the news. 

They found his body bound and strangled in a ditch outside of 
Jerusalem.  Another victim of peaceful demonstrations by peace-loving
Arabs who want NOTHING more than than to live in peace.  Right.

Ed.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism
Date: 14 Dec 1992 14:25:58 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 42526@sdcc12.ucsd.edu, revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>In article <1ggq5gINN2g1@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>>>	Now, as for the case at hand, a suggestion that Israel has
>>>        a policy to drive out citizens based on their non-Jewishness
>>>	alone strikes me as antisemitic innuendo.  I am not at all
>>>	embarrassed to say so.

>>Well, you should be.

>>This posting does not constitute an opinion of Wayne, just an
>>expression of my displeasure at the prospect of seeing worthwhile
>>threads dragged into the mud.

>	I request a clarification.  Which of these are true?

Don't expect me to play this game very often.

>	1) The above suggestion about Israel is valid.

I've lost Wayne's wording and context, so I'll treat your statement
AS IF he said it.  It is not an accurate statement of current Israeli
policy.  However, expressions of general sentiment which 
differentiate between Arabs and Jews (Netanyahu's suggestion to 
expel not ALL "agitators" but specifically ARAB "agitators" might
be one; I don't have time to check) have been common since last
century.  Any good book on Israeli politics is full of them.  
Furthermore the direct "encouragement" of specifically non-Jewish 
residents to leave has happened at least twice: 1948 and 1967.  
There are many other examples, such an non-equal application of laws.  
In such a context it is not surprising that someone with poor 
understanding of Israel (as Wayne) might judge it to be current policy.

>	2) The above suggestion about Israel is a lie but not
>           anti-Semitic.

My dictionary says that "lie" implies an intention to deceive, 
not merely an untruth.  Since I am reasonably confident that
Wayne believed what he said, he was not lying but merely mistaken.
As to the last part, whilest an antisemite might say such things
the converse is exceedingly flimsy.

>	3) Even if lies about Israel strike one as anti-Semitic,
>           one should be ashamed to say so.

Go ahead.  I won't be ashamed to call your opinions idiotic if
they strike me as such.

>	4) The statement "Jews control the media" is anti-Semitic.
>	5) The statement "Israel controls the media" is
>	   anti-Semitic.

Discuss the media with someone else; I'm going to bed.  Incidentally,
there has been almost no mention of the media, Winston, Faurisson,
or Chomsky in this group since you were here before.  We didn't
miss them.

>Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)

Brendan. (away Dec 17-27, please e-mail responses)
From: peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can Mr. Perlman back up his claims? (was  Re: Israeli soldiers k
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 08:54:56 PST
Distribution: world
Organization: Friends of Lenny Bruce

In article <23086@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

        >Mr. Perlman is, as he has done in past arguments with me and 
        >possibly others, 
        
I like the "possibly others" portion.  No facts, so make up some        
hypothetical scenario.

        >Mr. Perlman can accuse me of anything he wants, but for him to 
        >be considered credible, 
        
Look who's talking about credibility.  I seem to recall the following
statement:

        >"For all I care, you can send your money to the Hitler memorial 
        >fund, too, if that pleases you."
        >From arens@vaxa.isi.edu (Yigal Arens) in article 
        ><9323@venera.isi.edu>

Gee, what a *credible* person to discuss Mideast politics with.

--Philip Stromer (peewee@infoserv.com)
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:19:45 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <4651@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <4570@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>
>>  A mericans. please inform us what an American soldier is expected to
>>do if he is stoned at Somally ?
>
>The first thing the soldiers did upon landing on the shores of Somalia (to
>make way for the others) was to have people lie face down with their
>hands behind their back.  They even went to wake up sleeping people (by
>kicking them in the sides) to surrender to the 'invading' troops at gun-
>point.  [When Dick Cheney comments, he says 'I was angry - it took me a
>few minutes to get over it'.]
>
>Just as in the same scenario in the OCCUPIED Territories, there are
>defenseless people forcibly adhering to 'Democracy' and 'humanitarianism'
>under the guize of 'protection' and 'security'.
>
>Uh huh ...
>
>Anisa
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Babri aftermath (Re: Malcom X)
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:43:54 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <Bz7nMK.E9p@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.161648.7275@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>>Hindus in India destroyed a mosque, Muslims "retaliated" by destroyng
>>11 Hindu temples, and 700 people died.
>
>You neglected to mention that most of the victims were Muslims in both sides
>of the border (PAK/Ind/Bangl.).. and that while most people killed by Indian
>authorities are Muslim, most people killed by Muslim authorities are Muslim
>rioters.. that should tell you something..

I didn't know that.  The US papers have been vauge on who died.

>>I'm not sure how relevant this is to the middle East, except to show
>>us what happens when religious fanatics start attacking each other.

>I myself was really disturbed by the actions of Muslims in Pakistan, but
>I do not think Fanatism is the cause, the real cause is intolerence, extreme
>irrational emotions and hateful tribalism that is causing all of the violence

I'd say that intolerance, irrational emotions, and hateful tribalism
are all symptoms of fanaticism.

Adam

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: israeli extremists
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Distribution: talk
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:46:08 GMT

"wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>I see: so you support the deportation of Palestinians from
>Biblical Greater Israel, correct?

I take it that you mean Palestinian Arabs, not Palestinian Jews, who
have been deported from their homeland many times.

Nobody is seriously talking about deporting Palestinian Arabs from
Israel, except in the case of Palestinian Arab terrorists.

Is there any purpose in your message other than to create false
impressions and ill-will towards Israel?
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Pollard & Terrorism
Date: 12 Dec 1992 14:29:34 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu



 To Wayne McGuire...
 
    I am not the least bit interested in engaging in a dialog with
 you.  You are biased.  You lack either the ability or interest to
 be objective.  You take little bits of data out of context.  This
 habit of yours, taking items out of context, while omitting words 
 or phrases that change the entire meaning of the quote is nothing
 but dishonest.  Your portrayal of Netanyahu is a perfect example.
    
    You did everything possible to make it look as if he advocated
 the deportation of Palestinians.  Period.  You know that he never
 advocated such a policy.  He simply called for the removal of the
 people who are committing terrorist acts, or those who encouraged 
 others to do so.  You deliberate ommission shows that you are not
 to be trusted as a source of real inforamtion about Israel.
    
    You may call me a twit, or anything else.  I don't care what a
 person like you thinks of me.  But I give you my word that I will 
 do my very utmost to respond to each misleading, biased, hateful,
 out-of-context half-truth that you post.  You are totally free to  
 post whatever your heart desires.  So am I.  And others may judge
 for themselves.  Do you have a problem with that?
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:06:43 GMT

In article <1gvbffINNo7s@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   There has been much talk about the deportations in the context
>of their political significance.  I wonder why terrorist activity
>and murders on the part of Arab terrorists directed Israelis, are
>not regarded as politically significant?  There seems to be a bit
>of a double standard here.
>
>   A man is kidnapped.  A short time later, his body is found out
>on the side of some road, dumped like a bag of garbage.  The body

If Syria occupied Tel Aviv, and this soldier happned to be a syrian
kidnapped by jews asking  for the release of Shamir, then executed,  
you woldn't have a problem with that, right?  ADMIT IT.

jle
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israeli extremists
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:54:06 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Naftaly Stramer

 WM> Have any German or French high government officials called for
 WM> the deportation of minorities from their countries? Perhaps Le
 WM> Pen in France has, but he is not as powerful in his country as
 WM> Netanyahu is in his. If Le Pen were interviewed by King and
 WM> Koppel, would they fail to make an issue of his views towards
 WM> minorities?

 NS> The minorities in those countries are not thorpwing stones
 NS> and killing the majoriy people of the countries.

I see: so you support the deportation of Palestinians from
Biblical Greater Israel, correct?

We have had numerous riots in the U.S. in which some
African-Americans have engaged in violence: those Americans who
called for collective punishment of all African-Americans in
retaliation, or for the deportation of those who engaged in
violent activities, have been regarded as lunatics and extremists
on the far right of the political spectrum, in the same category
as neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.

Not in Israel, however: in that country a high government
official like Benjamin Netanyahu can call for mass deportations
of an oppressed minority, and the Israeli lobby here in the U.S.
barely raises its eyebrow. The double standards of these folks
are eventually going to catch up with them. Wait and see....

Btw, protestors in South Korea have engaged in much
stone-throwing and worse, but South Korean security forces have
had little trouble keeping control of the situation without
resorting to deadly violence or (!) mass deportations. It seems
that the chosen nation, Israel, has a good deal to learn about
riot control, not to mention fundamental ethics, from unchosen
nations like South Korea.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  No Man: This is Not a Photograph
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Date: 20 Dec 1992 03:16:31 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


 Michael Silverman writes...

>The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from
>the Occupied Territories.
>
>My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
>which *led* to the expulsions?
>
>Can anyone (pro or anti -Israel) answer this?

    IMHO, there is no way to answer your question.  There doesn't
    seem to be any sort of underlying principle to decisions made
    by the UN.  This is the same organization which asserted that
    Zionism is racism.  It is also the same organization which is
    blind to the racism of organizations whose members take oaths
    to kill all Jews.

    In case you had not noticed, there has been an outcry against
    the deportations, but the world has remained silent about the
    murders that led up to it.  

    Furthermore, the reception given to the deportees was not the
    most cordial.  Their Arab brothers in Lebanon would not admit
    them to Lebanon.  They chose to leave their Arab brothers out
    in the cold.  What has the world said about that? 

    Even the Arab delegates to the peace talks said nothing about
    the murders that have taken place over the last few weeks.  

    I tried to imagine Toledano's murder turned around.  A Jewish
    terrorist group kidnaps some innocent Arab.  They proclaim it
    to have been an act protesting the holding of Ron Arad.  They
    say that they will kill the Arab if Ron Arad is not released.
    The deadline for Arad's release passes and, within hours, the
    innocent Arab is found on the side of the road, tossed out of
    a moving car as if he was a bag of garbage.  His dead body is
    found bound from head to toe.  He had been tied up and knifed 
    over and over, until he was dead.  

    Do you think the world would be upset with such a treacherous 
    and sadistic murder?



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Exchange rates of the Middle East:
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:34:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.105510.9027@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil.Idriss:) writes:

# In article <1992Dec10.010719.13252@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >In article <1992Dec10.002148.2413848@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
 
# ># Exchange rates of the Middle East:
 
# >#                       U.S.Dollar       currency 
# >#                       Equivalent    per U.S.Dollar 
# >#                      Tue     Mon     Tue     Mon 
# >#  SOON TO BE          .3013   .3013  3.3195  3.3195 
# >#  FOREVER             .0142   .0142   70.30   70.30 
# >#  PART OF            2.6504  2.6504  0.3773  0.3773 
# >#  ISRAEL              .3743   .3717  2.6720  2.6900 
# >#  AND THERE IS       1.4832  1.4789  0.6742  0.6762 
# >#  NOTHING YOU        3.3389  3.3333  0.2995  0.3000 
# >#  CAN DO            .000535 .000534 1868.00 1871.00 
# >#  ABOUT IT!           .2665   .2665  3.7520  3.7520 
# >#  HA! HA!             .2723   .2723  3.6725  3.6725 
 
# Somehow I believe that this is really your intention.

	Frankly I am at a loss as to how anyone could have misread my
intentions here.  I was answering an absurd article with an equally
absurd article.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 22:12:19 GMT

In article <1genihINNhqk@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>I can't believe my eyes.  If American soldiers start killing Somali 
>children (I include younger teenagers) who throw stones at them
>there will an international outcry like you have never seen.

A few days ago, a few American helicopter pilots who thought that they
were being fired on attacked and destroyed 3 (American made) armored
vehicles.  There were no attempts to communicate with the people in
the vehicles; they were simply blown to smithereens.  Later a Marines
commander said that he wouldn't ask his people to investigate the
vehicles because there was still too much danger to US soldiers, that
they had done the right thing by blowing up the Somali vehicles.
Somali groups said that their vehicles were NOT shooting at the US
helicopters.

Now when Israelis feel that they are being attacked, and instead of
just blowing the whole place to smithereens, they send in Israeli
soldiers to determine what exactly is going on, at considerable
personal danger to the Israeli soldiers, and only then take action,
the accusations against Israeli brutality start pouring in.

I am waiting for the "international outcry like you have never seen"
against the Americans.

>>I sometimes have a hard time believing how naive people can be.

>You said it.

Me three.

>>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 

>Brendan.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hamas
Date: 15 Dec 1992 09:49:49 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 13903@colorado.edu, perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1ghva1INN9k0@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
  
>>Let me spell it out.  A number of times recently you have made
>>statements equivalent to "the partition was fair because the
>>Jewish part had a Jewish majority".  I don't believe that is 
>>a reasonable indicator of fairness, and I proved that by applying
>>the same indicator successfully to a partition which is obviously
>>unfair.  Reductio ad absurdum.  If you want to keep the theorem
>>you have to upgrade the proof.  That's it.

>International relations is not a field that can be determined by
>mathematics; you and I both know that.  While if you speak in terms of
>land value, what you're saying may be true (though I disagree, since the
>Negev - most of which was allocated to Israel - could not have been
>counted as valuable agriculturally then)

That's taken into account.  It was more than compensated for by 
having almost all the coastal fringe.  Also, the mountainous areas 
of low fertility went mostly into the Arab part.

>                                         , you also need to take into
>account that within a decade, the situation would most probably have
>been reversed, due to large scale Jewish immigration  - not only new
>arrivals, but also those who finally could get in after not having been
>able to for years.  Think about it for a few minutes and you might
>change your mind.

Of course I am aware of this argument.  It was the argument used as
justification for the unequal division at the time.  The problem
is, why were the Palestinian Arabs obliged to accept the Zionist
value system?  The purposeful gathering of Jews from other places
might have been a cornerstone of Zionist thinking (regarded as
"good" almost by definition) but I don't know why anyone else
must regard it so, a priori.

Please e-mail a copy of any reply.

>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 

Brendan.




Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast