From: jrd@lynx.frame.com (James Drew)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: The most influential comic books of all time...
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:33:50 GMT

[Sean responded back to me personally about "influential comics;" I don't know
if he also posted to RAC -- it will be days before I see the post -- so I'm
taking the Tim Maroney-approach and posting portions of personal e-mail as I
see fit...]

Sean Lester (lester@s1.elec.uq.oz.au) writes:

>[Jim Drew (jrd@frame.com) wrote:]

>>While I'll agree that Love & Rockets and Tales of the Beanworld, and maybe
>>RAW! indicate that the comics medium is capable of producing sophisticated
>>literature, [...] I look at the
>>medium as a whole, and I don't see any defining action stemming from them
>
>"Defining action" - I see.  So if it has no movies or sequels, it is not 
>influential.  So if a comic was to show people that there are other "types' of
>comics apart from the continual DC/Marvel and clones churn out crap => THUS
>it is not influential.  My apologies - thanks for putting me on the right 
>track.

Oh, don't get yourself in a snit.  You are misinterpretting what I said.  Yes,
L&R, TOTB, and RAW! show people that there are other "types" of comics.  (I
think I pretty much said that.)  But does it do any good?  I'm not saying that
a comic has to be a run away success to be influential, but that the very
existence of the book has to cause a lasting or significant change in the way
comics are done or looked at -- and that's comics on a global scale.

While TOTB is critically acclaimed and all, I don't any influence it has on
comics, other than improving the overall quality.  (And if that's your reason
for including it, where are Stinz, Good Girls, Kings in Disguise, Xenozoic
Tales, etc., all of which are also high quality [IMO], but none of which I deem
influential either?)

RAW! has received somewhat more mainstream, non-comics industry attention, true,
but does that qualify as "influence?"  Good question?  What good or bad results
has the presence of RAW! created for comics?  Has it brought it new readers?
(I doubt it.)  Has it rid us of "POW!  BIFF!" in the newspaper headlines?  (No.)
Have other titles been created to follow the same format, with success?  (Beats
me.  RAW! is off my beaten track.)

L&R?  I've been notoriously unimpressed when I've paged through issues at
various times.  It isn't *my* style.  So you tell me: if the comics is so damned
important/influential, why?  What has it done for comics storytelling, public
perception, or marketing?

>>2000 A.D., the successful, sold-at-newsstands, weekly, tabloid, anthology
>>comic, I'll give you that one.
>
>Why thank you, I am overcome with graciousness.

You're welcome.

>>None of the others have
>>made any impact on the American market and, face facts, if you're going to
>>"be influential" and "define the medium," you're going to have to have an
>>impact in the States
>
>Yes well, perhaps you should face facts.  Not everyone in the world regards
>the American market as the be all and end all.  I find the European market
>a "better" indicator of "being influential".  Comics that go well in Europe
>are usually those that go well in America; however, there are some comics
>that go well in Europe that wouldn't in America, which are superior
>majority)  couldn't give a toss if a comic was popular in America or not -
>thus making it JUST SOOO influential that I couldn't bear to be without it.

I was a bit hasty, perhaps, in speaking of the American market.  (After all,
such a statement is bound to offend someone from Oz.)

Nonetheless, rec.arts.comics is primarily geared toward English-language comics,
especially those aimed toward American audiences.  Any claims of comic X
being "influential" is going to have to prove its weight with our readership.

Please note that "quality" does not neccessarily equal "influence."  A comic
can be the best thing since sliced bread, but if no one reads it, if it doesn't
sell, and, especially, if no one looks at its good points and tries to
incorporate them into other works, then it has no more influence than Bean Hill
Influence Lad (and he's dead, remember?).

>>My list of the influential would include Famous Funnies, Action, All-Star,
>>Pep, assorted EC's, Mad, Adventure #247, Amazing Fantasy, THUNDER Agents #18
>>(which I think preceeded Adventure #356), Giant-Size X-Men, the Amazing
>>Spider-Man drug issue, Fantasy Quarterly and Cerebus, Camelot 3000, Teenage
>>Mutant Ninja Turtles, Batman: the Dark Knight Returns, Secret Wars (although
>>the plot elements for Crisis appeared a year before that), Spider-Man #1
>>(although the multi-cover idea goes back to Man of Steel, or before).
>
>I certainly wouldn't give you spidie.

The fact that Spider-Man #1 (I think that's what you mean by "spidie;" then
again, maybe it's an Aussie insult like "I wouldn't give you the time of day")
managed to sell something like twice as many copies as any comic had in over
30 years via a marketing strategy which involved identical covers with merely
different metallic inks and pre-bagged versions which preyed upon the collector
mentality to prevent the bags from being opened, one which then inspired several
other gimmick-oriented first issue concepts involving bags, covers, cards, and
what not?  In the long run, ten, twenty years from now, maybe the influence
will have died down, but now, that is *the* most influential comic of the past
5 years.  Nothing else comes close.

>Oh I SEE, so a comic has to actually sell millions and millions of copies,
>produce movies and t-shirts etc., to become influential.  So the average
>"future" artist/writer can't be influenced by a small selling comic but has to
>read only comics that are in the "best seller list".

You show me where I said that.

>Perhaps some comics are influential in a LARGE way, and some in a SMALL way.

Oh, I agree fully.  However, the Subject: of this thread is "The most
influential comic books of all time...", not "The comics that Sean Lester likes
to read the most.  If you're talking *most* influential of *all*time*, then you
have to look at the entire spectrum.

>You can have spidie and batty ... I'll take Love&Rockets or RAW! any day of
>the week thankyou.

That's "Spidey" and "Bats."  And, no, I'll let someone else have them.  I
don't read them any more than I read L&R.

------------------------------
                             |     "Hey, Marc," Ron said.  "Come listen to
Jim Drew                     | this new CD Ah got."
jrd@frame.com                |     "Maybe later, Ron."  Suzanne's apparent
(Furry: Randy Puritan)       | suicide had shaken me.
"Innocent, but not naive."   |     "Aw, come on," he said.  "It's Glen Miller!"
B2h t w- c k s g+(p) rv p    | He waved it under my nose.
S8/5 g l+ y+ o+ a+ u++- j++  |     "Ron, I'm not in the mood."
{opinions: mine != frame's}  |		- Marc Lynx, "First Thing You Do"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics