From: kte@INEL.GOV (Kathryn L Cook)
Subject: Re: Genetics & Birdyness in Labs
Reply-To: kte@INEL.GOV (Kathryn L Cook)
Organization: Idaho National Engineering Lab
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 22:09:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.183008.15503@cs.cornell.edu>, honig@cs.cornell.edu (Sue Utter Honig) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug26.184351.11926@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> willett@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (david.c.willett) writes:
|> 
|> (first of posting deleted)
|> 
|> >The recent postings suggest that such behavior or "behavioral tendency" is
|> >inherited.  I think this notion is dangerous and damaging to the breed.
|> >Dogs do different things for different reasons and a particular pattern of
|> >behavior can arise from any number of environmental, genetic, or social 
|> >factors.  Breeding is important, and temprement types are probably inherited,
|> >but I don't think you can say much more than that.  I'm not sure that 
|> >it is possible to "breed for birdyness" or any other type of behavior.
|> >
|> >Would any of you Lab breeders out there care to comment?
|> 
|> Maybe rather than asking Lab breeders about this, you should ask
|> Border Collie people.  The strongest proof I've seen that you can
|> breed for a behavior is watching a young border collie doing a great
|> outrun with basically no training.  An outrun is something I'll
|> probably spend a year (or more) teaching my Aussie or Rotties to do.
|> 
|> Perhaps you haven't heard about the big stink among Border Collie
|> people.  Most (but not all, hence the stink) are dead-set against full
|> AKC recognition, because they think the main criteria for breeding a
|> BC should be its herding ability, not whether it conforms to a uniform
|> type.  These people want to prevent the breed from losing its working
|> ability, just the thing we've been arguing about with hunting dogs.
|> They want to avoid what just happened with the induction of Aussies
|> into the AKC.
|> 
|> Border collies - isn't it amazing what 200 years of breeding for a
|> particular behavior can do?
|> 
|> Sue Utter Honig
|> honig@cs.cornell.edu
I'm certainly not an expert on genetics or inhereted vs learned behavior,
but I would tend to agree that alot of behavior is instinctual.  

I have a friend with a multiple Best in Show, multiple Specialty Best
in Show Old English Sheepdog.  This dog has many generations of show
dogs behind it with no working dogs for many generation (at least 8 or 9
probably many more).  Anyway, this dog had never seen sheep, much less 
herded them, so my friend decided to take him to a herding seminar and
trial put on by the local working stock dog association.  When the two
of them arrived, the judge and the local farmers and ranchers were polite,
but a bit skeptical to say the least to see an OES come out and join 
the Border Collies, Aussie, Heelers etc.  Well the OES performed beautifully
and earned his Herding Instinct Certificate, passing the test with flying colors.
I know the HIC is not the same as day to day working herding, but it was 
really amazing to see (it almost brought tears to my eyes) this
untrained inexperienced dog perform so well at the task that his distant
ancestors were originally bred and used for. How else, besides instinct,
can a performance like this be explained.  The instructor/judge was really
excited about the dog and urged my friend to start training him.

                       -kayti
========== long legal disclaimer follows, press n to skip ===========

Neither the United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering
Laboratory or any of their employees, makes any warranty, whatsoever,
implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility regarding any
information, disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe
privately owned rights.  No specific reference constitutes or implies
endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by the United States
Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory.  The views and
opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of the
United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory,
and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes.