From: khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Private Education in Pakistan
Date: 9 Jan 1993 10:02:38 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu


In response to Nadeem Jamali's last posting under "Private Educat......"


>>	Coming back to Zardari, Mr. 10%, please read Saad Shafqat's
>>shafqat say bhurpoor story of Zardari.  No I have no reason to hate 
>>Zardari except that he is a crook, jahil, rishvat-khore, and has no class.
								  ^^^^^^^^

>I'm curious when according to you, someone has no class :) Which class are you
>talking about. Do you have any class yourself? What are the qualifications for
>entering your class? using dirty language? hating people ? At least I 
>think that there is a strong reason to consider him innocent if he is proven
>innocent despite Nawaz Sharif's being in office. How can you call him a crook 
>and rishvat-khore? He did not hold any government office... how could he
>accept any bribes in the first place? Are you trying to imply that he
>was receiving bribes on his wife's behalf? Then, why don't you call
>Benazir rishvat-khor and crook :) Probably because no one is going to 
>believe you...

	It is easy to understand what I mean by class if I tell you
	that people like Zardari, BB, Navaz Sharif, and Kaka Ishaq
	have no class.
	Navaz Sharif, BB, Zardari are all nangaa in the same hammaam.
	Whether Zardari actually held any office or not does not matter
	in Pakistani society. Just because Gauhar Ayub did not hold any
	office during Ayub's time does not mean that Gauhar Ayub did
	not mint money during his father's govt.
	Whether anyone believes me or not is beyond my control. I believe
	that all the above mentioned people must be punished for
	crimes.


>>Jaan-nay vaalay jaantay hai'n that several years ago he got a girl pregnant
>>in Karachi. When he refused to marry her( yeh to bechpan say P.M. say shadi
>>kernaa chahtay thay!) she committed suicide.  The fact that Bezamir
>>married him  shows that she herself has no class.
>>

>Nonsense... I know something about Asif Zardari that you don't. Unfortunately
>if I go into details some people will feel seriously offended. I'll just say
>that the mere idea of Asif sleeping with a "Muhajir" girl is ridiculous.

	First of all, where did I say that it was a Muhajir girl he got
	pregnant. In fact, I do not even know the ethnicity of  the girl.
	Karachi has all kinds of girls.... sindhi, muhajir, panjabi, makrani,
	malabari, gujrati, irani, pathans, and baluchi.
	Seems like you know more about the story of this girl who 
	killed herself after getting pregnant by Zardari.
	Please tell us more without worrying about offending anyone.
	Why is the idea of zardari sleeping with muhajir girl before
	he got married is so ridiculous. He has been seen with a Japanese
	girl even after getting married to Benazir. 

>
>>
>>>at ICS Karachi in 1988 :) 
>>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>ICS may perh ker bhee naa-shukray ho! BCCI had an effect on your life too :-)

>What ???
	
	I was saying that thanks to the rishvat from BCCI, you went to
	a school founded by BCCI( If I am not wrong, ICS is the
	computer inst. founded by BCCI, but please correct me if I am wrong)

>
>>>>	people like you and me and us to HU's library. Hamdard Foundation
>>>>	has allocated 200 crores of Rupees for the project. When I asked
>>>>	the Chief Financial Officer of Hamdard Foundation about donation
>>>>	from other resources, he said that there is almost none from
>>>>	Pakistani industrialists. So there is some hope. But we need 
>>>>	more people like Hakeem Saeed. Aga Khan University is another
>>>
>>>I guess Hakeem Saeed owes a lot to Pakistan... Let me give you a hint...
>>>If I'm not wrong, Hamdard is the biggest importer of cortisone in Pakistan. 
>>>No wonder Rooh Afza makes one feel great :) :)
>>
>>	I do not know why Rooh Afza makes one feel great( Does it ?), but
>>	you are right that Hakeem Saeed owes a lot to Pakistan. HE has made 
>>	millions and billions in Pakistan. He is doing what he should.
>>	He must spend money on projects in Pakistan and he is doing so.
>>	Yes, he owes a lot to Pakistan. And I guess, he knows that.
>>
><>>There aren't many philanthropists in Pakistan. These are all ways of bribing
>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>I agree, we should have more.
>>
>>>the government.... and appeasing the people. Same applies to Agha Hasan Abdi's
>>>CS schools.
>>
>>	Chalyae app kee baat sir-aankho'n per, to yeh irshaad keejyae
>>	kay aissee bribes why not from Jatoi, Bhutto and NAvaz Sharif.
>>	This is one bribe I will support. I am anxious to see Bugtee
>>	opening a school in Dera Bugti to bribe the govt. or his people.
>>	Why rishvat khore zardari does not give such bribe to
>>	one lakh jahils of his zardari tribe. They need such bribes.
>>	How come the thief Navaz Sharif who stole billions of rupees,
>>	does not give a sadqaa-khairaat to the poor of Pakistan and
>>	opens a school in Laala Moosa. 
>>	I support these bribes to the people of Pakistan from Aga Khan,
>>	Adamjee, Hakeem Saeed, And Agha Hasan Abdi, and N.E. Dinshaw.
>>	Thanks to the bribe from Agha Hasan Abdi, you got educated in
>>	computer science in Pakistan. I had to freeze my ass in
>>	Cleveland starting 1981, because no one made had such a bribe yet.
>>	Thanks to the bribe from Adamjees. This bribe made me go to
>>	Adamjee college for HSC. Thanks to the rishvat from N.E.D. that
>>	I was able to attend N.E.D. U. for a week. Too bad for me that
>>	no murtishi had given a bribe yet for forming a comp. engr dept
>>	in Paksitan and I had to come to U.S.
>>	Jamali, this is one bribe I am looking forward for the rest 
>>	of Pakistanis.
>>	

>Mansoor, you're not getting my point again. I'm not saying there shouldn't
>be schools opened at those places. It's the absurdity of expecting corrupt
>people to open schools for no reason. Agha Hasan Abdi or Hakeem Saeed are
>bribing the government so that they are allowed to do whatever wrong they
>are doing. Hakeem is endangering the whole country's health by making people
		
		Let us discuss Hakeem Saeed's Roohafza in a separate
	discussion. I will cut part of present discussion and start
	a new discussion under the heading Roohafza.


>>take cortisone like that. He has to give this bribe to the government so
>>that the government and he himself can look like good guys. Now, why would
>a corrupt government official spend money on education? He has nothing to
>gain... he'll au contraire take bribes from people like Hakeem to make
>himself look good. I do not consider all the people that you call corrupt
>as corrupt. But if they were, it is ridiculous to expect them to be 
>philanthropists. Corruption is not limited to the act of taking/paying
>a bribe. It's a mind that is corrupt. Not everyone that accepts a bribe
>is corrupt... nor does a corrupt person have to take a bribe to deserve the
>title. To understand this you have to go into the philosophy of law and
>moral values and ethics. It is specially complicated in the context of
>countries like ours that are living under borrowed ideologies and 
>philosophies.
	I do not know much about philosophical mumbo-jumbo, but you are
	right that one does not have to take bribes to be called corrupt.
	But, I believe that anyone who takes bribes( a.k.a. commission
	in Pakistan) is corrupt.

>
>>>>	such example. Even BCCI donated money for two computer science
>>>>	colleges( one each in lahore and karachi). Agha Hasan Abdi should
>>>>	also be thanked by Pakistan for providing seed money for the
>>>>	new engineering school which is going to start under the leadership
>>>>	of Dr. A. Qadir Khan. I did not like it to be named after
>>>>	Ghulam Ishaq though. For what. What is Ghulam Ishaq's contribution
>>>>	to any thing in Pakistan. But, any way...
>>
>>>Gimme a break :) Had he not been there, who would have sacked Bhutto.. 
>>	Yes, Ishaq is as bad as bhutto.
>

>I disagree...

	You have the right to disagree.

>>	Muhaavaratan bolaa thaa meri jaan. Agar ek ek college bhee open ho
>>	jaa-ae Karachi or Lahore may, toe voh bhee enayat ho gee.
>>
>>	But If I had a choice I will spend more on Education in Panjab than
>>	in any other place in Pakistan. The reason is that 60% of Pakistan
>>	lives in Panjab. Even if Karachi is educated, it can not do jack shit 
>>	when people in Panjab send people like asghar khan, mustafa khar,
>>	jatoi( Sind's reject) and other juhulaa to our national assembly.
>>	Even if rest of the 40% of Pakistan is educated, 60% people can
>>	send enough jahils to the assembly who can select Navaz or Bezamir
>>	as Primeminister. But, if Panjab was educated and selected the
>>	rulers who cared about Pakistan,  then Education, industry, prosperity
>>	will automatically come to Pakistan.
>>	Thus I will support preferential treatment for Panjab in Education.
>>	Strong Panjab means strong Pakistan eventually.
>>	Education in Panjab is a must for Pakistan's taraqqee.
>>	Jehaalet in Panjab will destroy Pakistanis in other provinces too.
>>
>
>What can I say? you are using the kind of language Saad would only attribute
>to class-less people :) I agree there should be more schools in Panjab than
>in Sindh (at least as long as government money is being spent). If you recall
>you were talking about Karachi and Lahore.. not Sindh and Punjab. Karachi
>is the capital of Sindh in the same way as Lahore is the capital of
>Punjab. If you build more schools in Karachi because it is the capital,
>then people from throughout the province should be allowed to come there...
>forget it... I don't think there is any point in my trying to repeat these
>things. 
	No problem. you can repeat your point.  More schools shuld be 
	build in karachi and rest of sindh. If people from through out
	the province should be allowed to come to Karachi, people from
	Karachi should be allowed to go to rest of the province too.
	
>
>>>>	How about more colleges for Gwadar and Pasni. Why Bugti
>>>>	does not donate the money he has looted for the establishment
>>>>	of just one school in Dera Bugti. How come Zardari does not
>>>>	spend money in Lyari on education or in Sindh's rural areas.
>>>>	No do not expect Mr. 10% to do any such thing. All this money is
>>>>	shipped out of Pakistan. 
>>>
>>>Now now.... what's the point in that rhetoric...
>>	Too bad, you still dont see the point.  
>>	You dont see any point in opening schools and colleges in
>>	Pasni, Gwadar, Navabshah, and Lyari ?!?!?!?
>>	
>
>I've explained my standpoint above. There should be more schools opened
>at these places. Even if there aren't people willing to open private
>schools, government should step in. Unfortunately that's not happening.
>Most of the money is spent on places like Karachi and Lahore. In Panjab
>at least the ethnicity of people in the capital and elsewhere is roughly
>the same. In Sindh's case it is not. Because of the high numbers of immigrant
>bureaucrats in Sindh, a conscious effort has been made to keep all schools
>where Sindhis go at a lower level.

	I thought that twenty ( 20 ) years of quota system had taken
	care of the problem of immigrant officers in Sindh.
	Except the Sindh Medical College in Karachi, I do not see
	any Govt institution of higher education being opened in KArachi
	in last 30 years. 
	Even if there was a saazish to open schools in karachi, how come
	all these cheif ministers ( eg. Mumtaz bhutto, jatoi, jam sadiq)
	have not done any thing about spending Govt's money on opening
	schools in Sindh( minus Karachi).


>
>Let me give an example. Since the standard of living
>of Karachi is better, it is the most desirable place to be. New profs are
>sent to say LMC. As they become a little senior, they're moved to SMC.
	You mean they are moved or do they request to be moved.
	If they request to be moved from LMC->SMC/DMC, may be Govt.
	which is run by you know who, should give additional incentive
	for people to stay in LMC. More money is not a bad idea.


>Next is DMC. This thing is happening all the time. As a result, DMC is
>kept at the highest level, followed by SMC followed by LMC etc. I am not
	What do you mean by this. May be DMC attracts more people.
	This may be because of it being in Karachi. Give more money
	to those going to LMC to teach. This is one way of correcting
	the situation. Quota System is not.


>trying to imply that somehow Karachi is being made to appear more desirable.
>What I object to is the fact that a conscious effort is not being made to
>counter this inherently biased phenomenon.
	Please tell the future Sindh chief minister to give 
	more money to people who go teach at LMC. Stop blaming
	the whole group of people for inefficient govt of
	Bhuttos, Jatois, and sadiq-alis.

>
>Given that people without Karachi domicile are not allowed in DMC, and 
	and given that people with Karachi domicile are not allowed
	any where else.....

>knowing that Karachi's population is far from truly representative of
>the province's population (the percentage of native Sindhis in Karachi is
>small), natives are not able to go to the better schools. It's not only
>DMC. Even in NED, someone with say Larkana's domicile has to be a position
>holder to enter the waiting list for admission in Computer Systems Engg.
	Similarly it is difficult for someone to get into any engineering
	institute in Sindh( minus Karachi) if he/she has Karachi's domicile

>In the same way, even in the private schools, Karachi's population has
>a better chance because they get a better exposure to English language, which
>in turn increases their chances of scoring better in the "aptitude" tests. I
>am of the opinion that students coming from rural areas outperform city-boys
>in math skills. They never get a chance to work on their English, because their
>minds are preoccupied with learning the "national" language i.e. Urdu.

	People coming from rural areas may very well outperform city-students
	in maths or anything. 
	By the way, not all schools in Karachi are English medium.
	Steps should be taken to prepare students all over Pakistan
	for fair competetion. Quota System is the worst one can do.
	It does not prepare people to compete, but selects people
	who are less capable than others.



>
>Even inside these schools (at least I can talk about ICS), people from less
>urban background are discouraged. I remember ex director of ICS Dr. Javed
>Ashraf. In his welcome address to our batch he explained how urban life
>style makes people intellectually superior :) Later in one of the classes
>he told a guy from Multan, "You haven't come here from a village, have you".
	This is city vs. rural problem. What Dr. Ashraf
	thinks is his problem. Even in this country people in Ohio
	make fun of people from West Virginia, because the latter is mostly
	a rural state. This is not an ethnic problem.
	

>>From my personal observation I feel that the admission process is fairly
>>biased on ethnic lines. Some people also argue that Ahmedis are favored. I

	When Govt. schools are discriminating on ethnic lines
	then Private schools can not be expected to do much bettter.
	But in long run private institutes are probably less biased
	than govt. schools. 


>>don't know much about that. In every batch there is only one or two Sindhi
>>students who end up being accepted as the best students in the batch... well,
>>in most cases.
>
>In SMC, a couple of years back, an Urdu-speaking prof failed all Sindhi speaking
>students (and passed all Urdu-speaking ones) and left the country. Now he's
	That professor is screwed up.


>remembered as a hero :) During the same exam, MQM students came to my father's
>office (certainly carrying guns) and asked that the MQM students who failed to
	May be history was repeating itself !


>appear in the exam (certainly because of community service) be given good marks.
>When he refused, they came again... and again... and again  :) :) finally they
>came to kill him... and they didn't come again. just BTW, he's alive :) :)

	What MQM students were doing is wrong. But MQM is Jumma-Jumma
	aath din old Party. Stuff like this has been happenning
	in Karachi and Pakistan for a long time. Thanks to
	Balochi Student Fed, PAkhtoon Khwah, Panjabi Student Assoc,
	Jiay Sindh, and student wings of PPP, and JAmat-e-Islami,
	things are messed up in Karachi for a long time.
	MQM is the last one in the list of ethnic based party involved
	in campus Ghunda Gardi. If you do not believe me ask your dad.

>
>Same applies even when it comes to admission to schools in US or elsewhere.
>We all know what fraud is going on in Karachi. Such things are not very much
>known in even Lahore for that matter. The fact that a fake ID (with one person's
>photo and signature and another person's name) can be purchased from the govt.
>office for Rs. 300, and that Karachiites are making the best use of this makes
>it practically impossible for people with less community feeling to compete.
>You can pay someone to take GRE for you... or you can ask a friend or a relative
>to oblige. I'm fairly close with a few Urdu-speaking students from my ICS class.

Let me correct you. You seem to be fairly close with a few crook Urdu-speaking
students. Do not generalize.

>Each has taken GREs, SATs, GMATs numerous number of times for friends and
>relatives. It's become so bad that a friend was telling me that when he refused
>to do this for a cousin, he said, "How can you be so selfish?" :) I remember
>this guy who was working with me in IBM Karachi. He was an NED CS graduate. 
>Although his estimate sounds a little bit exaggerated, he said that at least
>90% of the people taking GRE each time are doing it for someone else. I have
>myself seen so many fake IDs that my friends have shown me.... made just for
>the purpose of this fraud... which has taken the staus of community service :)

	This should be told to the people responsible for arranging
	GRE's. But do not tell me that all Urdu speaking people cheat
	on their GRE's. Stop generalizing.

>
>Let's talk about how exams are held in the city of light Karachi. This is
>regarding the School Board and University exams. Question papers normally
>reach examination centers half an hour before the exam is supposed to start.
>These papers are handed over to APMSO (MQM student wing.. for those who don't
>know) guys without delay (in the community spirit). These papers are taken
>to professors who have agreed to serve as the solvers (again in the community
>spirit). I think there is one prof for each question. The solutions are 
>collected from these profs without delay (while the examinees await their
>saviours' return). These solved questions are taken to xerox copy machines 
>which have been booked in advance for the purpose. For each "Muhajir" student
>a copy is made. These xerox copies of solved questions is rushed to the exam
>centers where the poor next generation of the great nation is waiting. In the
>remaining 1 1/2 or 2 hours, the solutions are copied. This is all done in
>a community spirit. Believe it or not, this is what really made me appreciate
>the power of distributed systems :) :)
	Dude, Stuff like this was happenning 15 years ago. There was no
	MQM and there was no Apsmo( or whatever).
	You have tried your best to make this discussion change
	to  Urdu speaking vs. everyone else in Pakistan.
	Do not blame Urdu Speaking( or Muhajirs) for every shit in
	Pakistan. Urdu Speaking are hardly 2%  of Pakistan's population.
	All muhajirs(MQM definition) are not more than 5%.
	If rest of Pakistanis were all ferishtaas, even if all Urdu
	speakers were sons-of-bitches, Pakistan would still be a pretty
	good place. 

>
>In any case, my brother was taking his B.Com. APMSO students said that they'll
>kill any Sindhi students coming to the exam center. He and his friends went to
>the university and arrangements were made for them to go and take the exam some
	Things like this have been happenning in rural sindh for
	a long time. 
	All MQM idiots who did this stuff should be punished though.
	

>desolate primary school in Liyari. These guys thought they'll also do something
>similar to what "Muhajirs" are doing. Too bad, they couldn't find any solvers.
>Later, rumors started that students sent to these special centers are being
>failed by examiners because they know that it's all Sindhis. Arrangements were
>made to remove the center names from the exam papers :) I can't continue guys...
>it's so funny :) :)
>
>The question is "How does this help the community?" Answer is fairly simple.
>Irrespective of how good grades or degrees are obtained, these people do have
>better qualifications for admissions for higher education or even for jobs.
>Then they talk about pure merit :) As more and more of these people get jobs
>and "better" education, the community becomes more and more strong (financially)
>This results in a greater ability to do similar frauds. What do they call it...
>snowball effect?? I don't know. The next generation of children that grow in
>a financially more secure/previleged community can easily be expected to perform
>better than others... specially in language skills. There is no end to it. It
>has to be stopped. These unethical practices most certainly give these people
>an unfair advantage over not only other people of Sindh, but other people of
>Pakistan and in fact world in general. Specially the GRE fraud effects mainly
>the genuine applicants from other countries.

	Qazi Jee! Sheher kay Gham may dooblay kyoo'n.
	Do not worry about the whole world. Just call GRE and tell them
	what is going on. And stop blaming whole group of people
	just because your friends were cheating on GREs.
	And as far as your snow ball effect or whatever,
	let me tell you something, and please check history in future,
	in 1947 when Pakistan was founded, Muhajirs already
	had the advantage of better education, better business skills,
	urban life style( mostly), higher proportion in civil service,
	and higher proportion in military officers.
	So do not give me that snow ball bull.
	Quota System has taken care of civil service and military.
	Now you are telling us of these GRE frauds. Come on boy!
	>
>Opening schools is important. Even more important is throwing out these fascists
>from bureaucratic offices. They made hay on the missing middle class after 
>Hindus had been forced to leave Sindh. Expecting them to do any good for the
	What is wrong in having the skills to fill a gap.

>whole country is as ridiculous as is expecting the corrupt people you mention
>to spend money on education. 
	Those people who are in the Govt. should make such policies
	every one does good for the country. 
	It should be Top-Down. IF we have good leaders instead
	of the current stream of haram-khores, we will be much better off.
>
>What would be acceptable as a solution (to me) ? Let one generation of natives
>be born and let them grow in the same financially secure urban atmosphere as 
>Karachiites are used to. After that, let's have open merit or whatever. Believe
>me, you guys don't stand a chance... corrupt minds cannot create!!
     ^^^^^^^^^^^
	What do you mean by this "you guys" stuff. 
	And by the way I agree, corrupt mind cannot create.

>
stuff deleted

>Man!! just relax... discussing something on scp is not going to change things.
	May be it will. Atleast I can hope ....


>With the kind of material appearing on scp these days (including some of your
>jokes ;-) ), taking its readership seriously is the last thing I would do.

>Nadeem


Mansoor Khan
Cleveland.