From: dif@bhprtc.scpd.oz.au (David Faulkner)
Subject: Re: Polypiling
Organization: BHP Steel, Sheet & Coil, Research & Technology Centre
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 05:01:54 GMT

tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub) writes:

>In article <1992Oct11.203440.21543@msi.com> bill@msi.com writes:
>)
>)This goes back to the old discussion: Does having a game feature
>)availible to gamers make the game too easy?  What if a person just
>)chooses not to use it?  Does that mean it should remain for all others to
>)use if they want?
>
>The main point is, the game is too easy.  I've recently come back to
>it after abandoning it after my first win (the first one took a long time,
>to learn all the tricks), and I've won 4 times in the past 2 weeks
>(with a Barbarian, a Tourist, a Caveman, and a Priest.  And yes, my
>site has HARD defined).  The main things that upset the balance are
>polypiling, wands of wishing (wishes are OK, but 7 wishes is ridiculous),
>and rings of conflict.
>
>Now, you can say, 'don't use wishes or polypiling or rings of conflict',
>but that ignores the fact that someone who doesn't feel the same way
>you do about the game can fill up the high score list with easily-earned
>winners.  The most important factor in game design is balance; the most
>difficult thing to do when designing games is balance them.  To put
>out an unbalanced game and then say 'don't do the things that make 
>it too easy' is wrong.

Rubbish. The game is NOT too easy. You've just got very good at it.
(Extremely good, I might say, if you can win 4 times in two weeks
without any restored save files or cheating in any manner.)

Furthermore, there is no way you learn all the tricks just by winning a
game. You learn all the tricks by playing lots, yes, and by reading the
spoiler files, and by reading this news group, and by playing in wizard
mode, and by looking at the source code even. And even then you don't
know all the tricks. I'm pretty sure I don't. So the simple way to
restore game balance is get rid of the spoiler files and this news group.
Then see how long it would take you to think of polypiling, kicking sink
abuses, various gold abuses, etc, etc, all by your little self. You could
enjoy the game for years then.

It sounds to me like people who complain about Nethack being too easy are
simply addicts (yes I am one of these) who aren't getting much out of it
any more, but don't want to give up. To get a better idea of whether the
game is balanced, just ask a relative beginner how hard they think it
is. Of course if you play something lots and lots for months and years
it will become easy. Then it's time to move on. If you choose not to,
don't then complain because the challenge has gone.

If you think polypiling makes it too easy, then I challenge you to win
without polypiling, using a ring of conflict, engraving Elbereth
(which is one thing I personally think should definitely go), and
anything else you think makes it too easy. At least then you will have
a challenging game again, if you want to keep playing Nethack.
I mean, who really gives a shit about high score lists?
(If you are really concerned about that, buy your system administrator
a half case of beer and get them to edit the high score file for you,
putting you at No.1. with 100,000,000,000 points.)

O.K. sorry if this turned into a bit of a flame. It's not personal. I am
just sick of seeing after every abuse or trick people have thought of,
the line "but it won't be in 3.1". Why the hell won't they all be? What
sort of boring hack and slash game are they going to create if they cut
out all the tricks.

   -dif-
-- 
Dave Faulkner, Research Engineer                    (dif@bhprtc.scpd.oz.au)
BHP Coated Products Division, Research and Technology Centre
Port Kembla, New South Wales, Australia.
Newsgroups: rec.games.hack