From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Irish Books/U.S. Bookshops
Date: 24 Jan 1993 22:48:38 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Christopher R. Dunlea writes:
[mike, about British imperialism in Ireland as a test bed
for elsewhere in the world:]
mike>I don't think I believe it, however.  It's an interesting hypothesis,
mike>but when you look at historical timelines, who was doing what when,
mike>the colonial treatment or whatever of Ireland is practically
mike>simultaneous with the period of English colonization -- everywhere

>"Practically" isn't reality. Do you really think it irrelevant that
Oh get off it

>Walter Raleigh and Humphrey Gilbert were commissioned to oversee
>the plantations of Munster, where the term "native" orginated in
>English usage, and THEN were sent to build the same garrisons, the
>same military outposts in Virginia and organize the new possessions
>in the SAME way? The administrative procedures developed in the 1530's
>laid the groundwork for the 1600's in America, in terms of 

Nice of you to bring up Raleigh & Gilbert -- their period is the very
one I mentioned, the late Tudor era.  NOT the 1530's.  The earlier
Munster plantations were pretty much a failure, in terms of
translating the English life to Ireland & pacifying the land, tho it
is certainly true that settlers hung on during the various rebellions
of that time.  But it wasn't until the Stuart period that it really
took off (see Foster's "Modern Ireland").  I don't understand the
earlier Tudor period in Ireland very well at all, but the English
behavior then looks like it was similar in many respects to the
earlier Norman settlement.  Despite all the carnage in Munster the
actual number of settlers that were still there in 1622 was only
about 12000 (Foster).

I reject the idea that Raleigh, in particular, adopted the same
methods in VA & elsewhere that he used in Ireland -- tho I suppose the
same basic ideas of imperialism & greed were at work.  I was under the
impression his activities in Ireland were basically military, against
the Desmond rebellion, & his colonial attempts in Virginia were
basically exploratory & oriented toward settlement.  The interactions
with the natives involved were pretty different, weren't they?


>building a bureaucracy faithful to the Crown's orders. 
>Also, remember that Ireland is the FIRST colony to revolt along
>constitutional lines (1640's) and a key player in settling the
>civil war between the Stuarts and the Orangists. Ireland's history
>illustrates rather clearly that it was a testing ground for America and    
>Asia.

While the examples you cite are interesting history (& represent
Ireland's only moments in the sun until the famine), neither are
relevant to the argument that Ireland was a testing ground for British
colonial policy.  You could've at least cited Cromwell's policies
or the Ulster plantation.

I think it would probably be fairer to say that North America was
the British colonialist testing ground.  It is interesting that
some of the same people involved in the debacle in the 1780's
in the American colonies went on to successful careers in other
British colonies, for example Cornwallis, during a period much
more difficult for Britain than the 1770's & 80's had been.

The more I look at this the less likely this Ireland-as-a-testbed
hypothesis looks.  There are just too many special cases & exceptions
in Irish history that make its colonial history different than
other British adventures.  The 450 yr old religious conflict is
one (because it also occurred in English history).  The long contact
between England & Ireland & Scotland involving trading settlers &
ideas back & forth.  The partial Anglicization of Ireland -- does
this ever take place in any other British colony?

>>Isn't it at least as likely that the English practiced their
>>colonialist skills out of site [somewhere]

>See Nicholas Canny's article in "Strangers Within the Realm" to 
>answer your question if you are interested. 

I'm not asking Canny -- I'm asking you.  If he wants to post, great.
I'm not 1 of your grad student slaves, if you're going to cite
something at least do us the courtesy of explaining or summarizing the
argument.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic