HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Robert Conquest's _The Great Terror_
Summary: I wonder about that
Date: 29 Jan 93 04:53:31 GMT
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide

In article <14090@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <C1AL8J.KL@panix.com>, gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>> In article <13987@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>> | In article <1993Jan16.012254.19411@husc3.harvard.edu>, zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

>No, the difference is that the public of this country, if they
>knew that someone was definitely innocent, would NOT support
>that innocent person's execution -- unlike Krylenko.

Well I would like to know how you come to this conclusion! The problem
is that people are happiest to be left in ignorance. The two Italian
terrorists are a case in point, everyone knew that at least one of them
was innocent. At least anyone who cared to read anything. They still
were executed with public approval! Ignorance is bliss in that it saves
people from thinking bad of themselves and those things they hold dear.

While it is not quite an execution, the US public has expressed approval
of mass murder before. During the campaign to suppress the Philippino
Independence movement (whatever you want to call it) General Jacob Smith
ordered that every male over the age of ten be killed on the island of
Samar. This is about the third largest island in the group so this was
no small massacre. His order was obeyed. The US press found out and a
fuss was raised. General Smith, after trying to blame his subordinates,
was convicted. President Roosevelt did not punish him, merely insisting
on his resignation, which considering he was a Civil War veteran was not
too soon. The point being that through its total silence on this 'pardon'
the US public de facto indicated its support (as did Teddy Roosevelt by
not sentencing the man) Does this compare with the murder of some Russians?

>It is very sad that the population of this country is too stupid
>to recognize that the death penalty isn't the only alternative
>to putting violent savages back on the streets.  But this could
>be fixed, if liberals were willing to lock up murderers for life,
>instead of looking for excuses to return them to the streets
>pronto.

If the conservatives were willing to raise taxes to pay for new prisons....

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary g link)
Subject: Re: Buried Treasure -or- So, whaddaya use for bookmarks?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 05:16:40 GMT


Heather boasts about her card collection...

(deleted)

Trade ya three Palmers for the Ryan.  The cards are in pretty good
condition, I only drooled on them a little.

Susanna

ObBook:  just finished _Killing Orders_ by Sara Paretsky.  Does anyone
else enjoy watching Catholic priests get their come-uppance as much as I
do?


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dstein@oak.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: Remedial Math (was Re: Marilyn (was: Paglia)
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 14:54:56 GMT

Mikhail Zeleny writes:

>To recapitulate: the best introduction to general mathematical culture,
>as required by such disciplines as philosophy, linguistics, computer
>programming, and so on, is to be found in the beginning courses on real
>analysis, topology, and abstract algebra.  Another prerequisite for the
>above is a course in formal logic and set theory.  In addition, work in
>linguistics will call for familiarity with lattice theory and other
>aspects of universal algebra.  I believe that all of the above should be
>required of anyone graduating with a B.A. in these areas.

  I second that opinion.  Though I do not think it is so important that 
the B.A.'s go through these courses with the same rigour and exhaustiveness 
as the math students have to; the important thing is to expose all to the 
ideas and concepts underlying abstract mathematical thought.

  A friend of mine was teaching some pre-Calculus class, the one where the
university tries to undo the damage done in high school.  He started the 
first day by showing there exist irrational numbers, and by explaining why 
are the reals not countable.  About half of his class switched sections on 
him.  Towards the middle of the semester he was fired, allegedly for not
following the syllabus.  The next day he was rehired--the students stood
by him and asked for his return.  For many of them, I suspect, this was
the first time in years they actually cared about math.

 - Debil

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Debil, on the shores of Bohemia.
################################
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Debil, on the shores of Bohemia.
################################
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: cei308@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Jet Girl)
Subject: Re: The WORST novel ever written?
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:43:02 GMT

In article <1jfgf8INNlpp@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>Miss Anne d'Roid writes:

     ^
     ^        Who???? I seem to re-call that I wrote that after
     ^        about 100 unread letters disappeared......

     
>	P.S.  Why has all my unread letters from the r.a.b 
>	disappeared???  Is it just my hopeless .profile or 
>	what????
>
>
>No, We confiscated them. It seemed to Us that you were coming 
>dangerously close to advocating your own home education, and 
>We just won't stand for it.

       Oh dear.  Big Brother and Sister have obviously gotten
       into the Coventry Uni network or something!!!!!
       Me????  Advocating my home education????  Never!!!!

   love and still coughs

   Julie    


-- 
******************************************************************************
*            JOOLZ THE JET GIRL      cei308@uk.ac.coventry.cck               * 
*  "Just when I think I'm winning, when I've opened every door...the ghosts  *
************** of my life blow wilder than before" - Japan *******************  
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:25855 sci.philosophy.meta:3110
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Relative clauses (was: Re: About Truth...)
Date: 21 Jan 93 06:50:37 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1993Jan21.121758.24967@eff.org>, mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
> In article <1993Jan20.204701.46577@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
> 
>>The point is that the non-restrictive type does not occur in the
>>spoken language.  Simply listen to spoken English (not English being
>>read aloud) and notice that you never hear (and hopefully cannot
>>imagine producing) a sentence like your first example above.
> 
> I hear nonrestrictive clauses all the time. I'm startled to see someone
> claim they don't exist in spoken English. 

It's a blanket statement I've heard made numerous times by linguists,
especially those who work on English.  To me it's always seemed right.
I can't imagine saying to my wife:

	Guess what?  Molly, who was planning to drop my course, got an
	A.

Certainly not with the pause intonation (for the comma) that I would
give it if I were reading it.  However: if you hear them, you hear
them.  Maybe the experts are wrong; it wouldn't be the first time.

> It should be noted that spoken English and written English do influence
> each other. It may be that the kinds of people I hear spontaneously
> generating nonrestrictive clauses are primarily literary and law types--
> the kinds of people who are more likely to allow their spoken language to
> be shaped by what they read.

I would suspect this to be the case; yet I am still waiting to hear
one of these animals even from a bookish speaker.

>>I suppose a speaker could
>>purposely produce one, but it would sound quite strange.
> 
> Not to me.
> 
>>> Each of these sentences is entirely speakable,
>>
>>Yes--that isn't the point, as I hope I've made clear.  We can speak a
>>declarative sentence backwards if we wish; and lots of other things;
>>but in determining what people normally say we must listen.
> 
> By "speakable," I meant simply that I would not be surprised to run across
> either sentence in spoken English.
> 
> I will concede, of course, that nonrestrictive clauses are uncommon in
> spoken English.

A compromise; I'll take it and run <:->.

> --Mike
> -- 
> Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
> mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
> (617) 864-0665  |                           
> EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 

--Ken
 
miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu | Nobody can explain everything to everybody.
opinions are my own      | G. K. Chesterton
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26414 rec.arts.sf.written:18425
From: jim@rand.org (Jim Gillogly)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: OZ books?
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:00:05 GMT
Organization: Banzai Institute

In article <1993Jan25.124040.1@skcla.monsanto.com> jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com writes:
>the South Dakota town where he'd set up shop.  He was asked by the children
>what the name was of the magical land, and he picked up OZ off the bottom
>drawer of his file cabinet.

It is, of course, <strictly> a coincidence that Baum's home state (PA) and
Ruth Plumly Thompson's home state (NY) bracket OZ alphabetically...
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Sunday, 6 Solmath S.R. 1993, 21:01
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.jewish
From: anand@Cadence.COM (Anand Bemra)
Subject: Re: Robert Conquest's _The Great Terror_
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:47:59 GMT

zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:


>Try the Black hysteria.  Sacco and Vanzetti were anarchists, and like
>the original Chicago Eight, they were tried as such.  But the earlier

>Haymarket case has the sad merits of being an absolutely
>incontrovertible, and belatedly admitted, travesty of justice.

>In the absence of any evidence of violent action, Albert Parsons, August
>Spies, George Engel, and Adolph Fischer were tried and executed as
>advocates of anarchism.  Six years afler their execution, the Illinois
>Governor John Peter Altgeld issued an unconditional pardon of the
>surviving anarchist co-defendants of Parsons, -- Fielden, Schwab, and
>Neebe, -- denouncing the ruling of Judge Gary in no uncertain terms:

>	"In all the centuries during which government has been
>	maintained among men, and crime has been punished, no judge 
>	in a civilized country has ever laid down such a rule."

The eighth person committed suicide in his cell the day before the 
execution. The anarchists were fighting for eight-hour work day.
The May Day (May 1) is celebrated in memory of those Chicago martyrs.
(Ref: Daniel Guerin's "Anarchism")




--
Screw PBS & NPR news. Tired of news "sanitized for your protection?". Try:
misc.activism.progressive, "Lies Of Our [NY]Times", "Z" magazine (Boston).
KPFA 94.1 FM (Bay Area), 90.7 (L.A.), 90.1 (Houston, TX), 89.3 (Washington, DC)
These are my opinions, not my employer's. 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: For Thine is the kingdom
Organization: The Inner Clique
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 05:08:51 GMT


kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:
 
> According to what I remember from Papist Sunday School, it's God who has
> the KP&G, not the church. So Greene is saying that God gets short shrift 
> from the RC's, perhaps? Weird. 
 
> Of course, that line _is_ uttered in the Catholic Mass at the end of the 
> Lord's Prayer, but it's the priest who says it.

This was certainly not true when the Mass was in Latin.  I don't remember
it being true of the English Mass, either -- though I must confess to 
having lost interest when it became understandable.

Mark

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:06:03 -0500 
From: "Jonathan R. Ferro" <jf41+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Novels about writers

arc2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (AMY CHARLES) writes:
> Anybody read any good books w/writer as protagonist lately?

I asked this question about a year ago and didn't get many responses.
The book I had just read which prompted me to ask was Russell Hoban's
_Kleinzeit_.  Also, in a sense, Eco's _Foucault's Pendulum_ could be
considered to be about writers.

-- Jon Ferro               Einsprachigkeit ist heilbar
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: Re: Contemporary Literature
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:07:16 GMT

Trish Rucker writes out an intriguing list of her literary interests,
a few of which were unknown to me.  Would Trish, or someone else,
care to shinen some light in my direction?

Who is Albert Goldbarth?

What is the "whole SUDDEN FICTION genre"?

These three women writers are all familiar, but I must confess, I'm
woefully behind on reading women writers, so I'd appreciate a bit of
info on how they're different:

>Sharon Olds
>Carolyn Forche
>Tess Gallagher

					--curiosity doesn't kill
						spiders, right?

							Fiona
From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Censorship
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:13:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: fc.C1FHLs.3wo
Organization: SPUGE
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

Laurie Mann (lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com) wrote:
: Doug Quarnstrom writes
: >I am curious.  When was the last time the US banned a book?
: >
: >Is there any literature out there that discusses the history
: >of censorship in the US, particularly within the last 50 years or so?
: 
: I don't think the US as a nation has censored a book since, maybe, the '30s.
: Maybe earlier.  James Joyce's book Ulysses had all kinds of problems
: being published here back in the '20s.

I was aware of Ulysses.  Naked Lunch was also banned, right?  When
was that published?

doug
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: faunt@netcom.Netcom.COM (Doug Faunt N6TQS 510-655-8604)
Subject: Re: Academic Settings meets Biggest Disappointments and Surprises
Organization: at home, in Oakland
	<1993Jan21.170718.10668@ncar.ucar.edu>
	<1993Jan22.043819.11296@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 03:16:33 GMT

We've got a copy in paper, but I don't know where the volleyball
section is, so can't locate it.  My partner has charge of most of the
children's books (the main exception is Pinkwater).
There is a fair amount of volleyball in it.

In article <1993Jan22.043819.11296@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

   From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
   Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 04:38:19 GMT

   Cythia Voigt's second-best novel, imo, also a juvenile, is "Tell Me That
   the Lovers Are Losers".  I've only seen it in hardcover.  (It's rooted
   firmly enough in the sixties that there might not be much of a market for
   a paperback edition.)

   The publisher deserves to be nominated for the Ring-in-a-Volcano award:
   Along with the ISBN and similar stats is a list of indexing terms, and
   the first entry on the list is 'volleyball', which is a bit like indexing
   "The Wizard of Oz" under 'slippers'.

   -----
   Dani Zweig
   dani@netcom.com

      God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine  -- Edmund Spenser
From: bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: T. C. Boyle !!!!!!!
Date: 24 Jan 1993 21:57:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Huzzah for TCBoyle! WATER MUSIC amused me no end whilst
working in dry counties in West Texas where none of us were
kin to the bootlegger.
-- 
Ted....
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.meta
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Relative clauses (was: Re: About Truth...)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:48:01 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.174214.11640@sophia.smith.edu> orourke@sophia.smith.edu (Joseph O'Rourke) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.144644.26694@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>>I'm reminded of a story about a conference of linguistic scholars.
>>[story deleted]
>>To which a guy in the back of the hall immediately responded, "Yeah, yeah."
>
>	I heard that this guy was Saul Kripke.  Can anyone confirm
>or refute?

I can refute, I think. I got the story from a New York Times Magazine
article about Kripke, but the story itself was not about Kripke.
Or so I recall (the article appeared in the late '70s).


--Mike








-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mad5c@birch.cs.Virginia.EDU (Michael DeLong)
Subject: Re: Buried Treasure -or- So, whaddaya use for bookmarks?
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:07:14 GMT


I usually use things that part of the incidental essence of the book:
sales slips, publishers' or bookstores' complimentary bookmarks, the
usual debris from a trip to a nice bookshop that's too nice to discard.

A quick riffle through my 'Now Reading' pile yields:

1)  a warning slip from a conveniently located Methodist church here
    in town asking me not to park there again, and telling me where
    I can expect to find my car if I do

2)  two slips from Dillons the Bookstore, Broad Street Oxford.  These
    came from an old girl-friends stay in Oxford, and provide a subtle
    hint as to how much the books she bought me there cost her, if I 
    would just sit down and find the exchange rate from 1988

3)  a whole host of dead PostIts

4)  a coupon for 15% bag coffee that I can't afford, even at 15% off

5)  an end-card from Paul Motian's "Monk in Motion"

6)  a couple of folded pages torn from the Worst Novel Ever Written,
    which believe me is too kind a fate.  If memory serves, there was
    a reference in an Anthony Burgess novel to a review copy of a 
    slim volume of poetry being devoured in a rather less kind way.
    I'm afraid of the effects of the ink myself, and what's more I
    just don't have the nerve.

I'd be willing to trade the lot for a Nolan Ryan rookie card, of course.
Or a Jim Palmer, for that matter.

Mike.

--
delong@virginia.edu.  		Every day a day older.
-- 
--
delong@virginia.edu.
From: yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Biggest Disappointments and Surprises
Date: 21 Jan 93 00:48:42 GMT
Organization: Moi?

In article <1993Jan20.153759.34061@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pml3@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Paul Michael Lewis) writes:
[quoting the thread's originator]
>>Ok.  I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.  In my humble (or not so humble)
>>opinion, the most disappointing novels I ever read were:
>
>( examples deleted )
>
She mentioned CRIME AND PUNISHMENT which I had to read for not one, but *two*
English classes as a freshman, and hated.  I read it again two years ago and
wasn't quite so distressed by it, but it'll never be one of my favorites.
OTOH, my son is polishing it off for his HS senior English class and having
no trouble with it.  
>
>
>>I would also like to propose a (new?) thread, along the same lines:  What
>>are some of the most pleasant surprises you've had?  (That is, books you
>>started with serious reservations (at least), but ended up becoming
>>(almost?) favourites.)
>>
A few years ago I was taping texts for visually handicapped people, and
had to read MOBY DICK, every word.  The phraseology meant I had to do a
lot of erasing and re-reading, as I was often ready for a sentence to end
before Melville was, but I found that contrary to my expectations, I loved
the book.
>
>
>This is similar to how I felt about _The Iliad_.  When I saw how huge the book
>was (senior year in H.S.) and the fact that it was some ancient Greek
>translation from a guy that no one knew anything about :), I was very
>apprehensive.

>
>However, very quickly, I found myself drawn to the verse and the fantastic
>stories and myths.  The story remains one of my favorites in all of literature.
>
The same son also enjoyed THE ILIAD, yes.  (This is a great class he's in!)

--
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | When you go out into the world,
			      | watch out for traffic, hold hands,
                              | and stick together.
CSUS depends on my every word.|             --Robert Fulghum
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Robert Conquest's _The Great Terror_
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:45:33 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <C141s6.KLF@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

>Which is unspecific enough to be true, but in the immortal words of Mandy
>Rice-Davies "he would say that, wouldn't he" - just what else do you expect
>from Russia's best-known neo-Tsarist?
>
>Solzhenitsyn's own contribution to the pick-a-number-and-double-it school
>of Stalin studies was that the death toll was 64 million.  It seems to
>escape most of the right that this is a *greater* discrepancy with the CIA/
>Conquest number than between Conquest and rating Stalin as the twentieth
>century's answer to St Francis.
>
>What's Solzhenitsyn up to these days, anyway?
>
>--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,

Since this IS rec.arts.books :

 "He is a bad novelist and a fool.  The combination
  usually makes for great popularity in the U.S."

                - Gore Vidal, on Alexandar Solzhenitsyn
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26219 alt.usage.english:11010
From: Cannam@sc.ZIB-Berlin.de (Chris Cannam)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: that/which/who
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:19:32
Organization: Konrad-Zuse-Zentrum fuer Informationstechnik Berlin
Distribution: alt
NNTP-Posting-Host: borodin.zib-berlin.de
In-reply-to: francis@oas.stanford.edu's message of 23 Jan 1993 14:11:50 GMT


In article <1jrjn6INNs6m@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu
(Francis Muir) writes:

   A nice example. In England, the choice is part of a litmus test. "Our
   Father, Which art" is Church of England while "Our father, Who art" is
   Roman Catholic. 

I'm C of E, and I say "Our Father, Who art".

							Chris

--
           on sighting mathematicians it should unhook the algebra from their
             minds and replace it with poetry;  on sighting poets it should
               unhook poetry from their minds and replace it with algebra

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.president.clinton
From: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Subject: Inauguration ceremony
Reply-To: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre, Munich
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:56:21 GMT


We got to see the Clinton inauguration here,  the Angelou poem (yes,
rather deadpan and monotone delivery) and all.  In English too, thanks to
Austrian TV broadcasting on two sound channels -- not like the pesky
Germans who stick you with their voice-overs.

At one stage the band played the tune that Monty Python adopted as
the theme music (An indication of things to come in the Clinton era?).
Will someone kindly enlighten me by telling me the name of this tune, 
who composed it, etc?   [Where are those Cliff Notes on Python (Monty)?]

--

I forget now, does the US have something like a "poet laureate"?  If yes,
who is it now?  Or does every Prez get to nominate one?

--
Sanjiva Prasad,  Guest Magus				E-mail: sanjiva@ecrc.de
European Computer Industry Research Centre		Off: +49 89 92 69 91 58
Arabellastrasse 17					Fax: +49 89 92 69 91 70
8000 Muenchen 81, Germany				Res: +49 89 16 33 59