From: skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Free gifts? NOT!
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 17:35:17 GMT

Mr. Butler leaves me out of his discussion in name only, fulfulling
the letter (but not the spirit) of my request.  I will make it clear
for him.  Mr. Butler, please leave my name and all references to my
words completely and entirely out of your discussion.  I do not wish
to participate.

daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler) writes:

>    PS. Perhaps I should elaborate why I was accusing someone (who now wishes 
>    to left out of the argument) of Red Herring, as he (and perhaps
>    others), obviously did not understand my criticism.  He claimed that 
>    he needn't respond to my criticism because he wasn't interested in 
>    the issue I was bringing up.  The problem with this claim is that 
>    this person's main thesis was that salvation was truly free.

I have repeatedly clarified that this was not my thesis.  Mr. Butler
apparently doesn't believe me when I say this.  What else can I say?
This is not my thesis.  I have sent email to explain in detail.

>    His thesis
>    was not merely centered on the one issue he was actively promoting (ie:
>    that a free gift was no less free if one must actively accept it).

This is simply false.  I have clarified this more than once for Mr.
Butler.  It is acceptable to interpret my initial words this way.  Mr.
Butler's interpretation is as valid as any other.  After I clarify for
him, though, this becomes fallacy.  I cannot imagine why Mr. Butler
continues in this way.  Others seem willing to participate in his
discussion, so he does not need me to act as a sounding board for his
words.  He himself wrote in another post,

>Gregg, this is getting tiring for us both.

I suggest it must be tiring for me only, as Mr. Butler does not seem
to tire of including me in his posts.

>    I had already ceded to his point,

Others did not.  With them I had a discussion; it ended weeks ago.
Mr. Butler took the words of that discussion and applied them to his
own.  An honest mistake -- not even a mistake, really.  Upon his doing
that, I pointed out that my words belonged in a different context.
This was a clarification.  So far so good.  This is all an ordinary
part of civil discourse.

But Mr. Butler continued, deciding that my words did indeed belong in
his discussion, as a Red Herring.  That is, Mr. Butler claims that I,
who have openly indicated that I am not participating in his
discussion, am attempting to divert attention from the real question.
I clarified again that my words do not belong in his discussion.  I
make no attempt to divert him from his pursuits.  Yet here we are.
Mr. Butler, why are we here?  I have made no claim that showing the
possibility of the gift of salvation being free says anything about
whether it truly is free.  Can we end this?

>    and responded with a different and 
>    valid point against the idea of free salvation: that a gift is not free, 
>    if something is demanded of those who accept that gift.  I also gave a 
>    Bible verse showing such demands being made.  It was Red Herring to 
>    respond to my argument by returning to the now moot argument about 
>    "accepting a free gift".  One cannot simply ignore a valid issue raised 
>    against one's main thesis, simply because one isn't interested in it.  If 
>    one is determined to claim that salvation is a "free gift", then one must 
>    defend one's thesis against all valid criticism against "free salvation" 
>    and not merely the criticisms which catch one's interest.

I throw my arms up in exasperation.  I cannot state it any more
clearly than this: Mr. Butler, you and I are not talking about the
same thing.  Intially, this was not an affront to anyone.  However,
after my repeated clarifications, your persistence is rude.  Kindly
leave me out of your postings on this subject.
--
Gregg Skinner  g-skinner@uiuc.edu   I do not speak for any organization.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc