From: pires@vxcern.cern.ch
Newsgroups: soc.culture.portuguese
Subject: Entrevista de Xanana `a SIC/TSF
Date: 14 Dec 1992 12:25:26 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Extraido da conferencia  "cdp:reg.easttimor",   ---Rui

------------------------------------------------------------------------
** Topic: Xanana interviwed by SIC-TSF **
** Written  2:40 pm  Dec 14, 1992 by gn:cdpm in cdp:reg.easttimor **
Translation of article published in the Portuguese daily O Publico
on 12 December 1992, written by Adelino Gomes, on the recent
interview of Xanana Gusmao by Joao Gabriel, reporter for SIC-TSF
(Portuguese independent TV channel and radio station)

XANANA IS UNREPENTANT

It happened at the end of the interview.  Interviewer and
interviewee were standing together, with censors and military a
meter or so away.  Xanana gripped the reporter's hand and held it
firmly in his own for 30, 40 seconds.  "I was answering your
questionnaire at the time of my arrest", he said.  Then came two
more sentences, which the SIC-TSF reporter prefers to withold
until he is back in Portugal.  However, Joao Gabriel did  disclose
to O Publico that Xanana's two last sentences of the interview
"disagree entirely with the version that he is repentant, placing
him in the position he has been in for the past 17 years, fighting
for Timor's independence".

The reporter, who managed to get into Dili last summer using his
other passport (non-Portuguese), did not think he would be given
permission to meet Xanana.  Indonesia's "yes" arrived Thursday
night, two weeks after the request had been made, when the
reporter arrived in Jakarta.

Some hours later (3 am Lisbon time), a much moved journalist meets
face to face with an "extremely tense" prisoner.  Joao Gabriel
introduces himself.  "I gave him a hug from Portugal; I assumed
that role", Joao Gabriel tells O Publico.  Xanana responds with a
strong handshake.  "I apologise for my role here - trying to
'extract' information from a man in such an extremely complicated
and critical situation.  He smiled and said: 'There's no
problem'."

Three dozen people, among them many military - some of whom are
high-ranking, are present during the interview.  It takes place in
the amphitheatre used for teaching at the police barracks in
Jakarta, where Xanana is being held prisoner.  The interview is
recorded by an army film crew and observed attentively by five
Indonesian censors, one of whom is a woman.  "The entire interview
refutes the idea of repentance suggested by the video recording of
Xanana's interview with Abmlio Ossrio (Governor of East Timor)",
(see O Publico of 2 December), says the interviewer.  As the most
explicit example of this he indicates Xanana's reply to a question
about his acceptance of East Timor's integration in Indonesia.  "I
am replying in a way in which, if I were free, I would not", said
the leader.  But this part was neither heard nor seen by the
Portuguese because it was one of several sentences which
censorship deleted (8 minutes of the nearly 20- minute interview)
(see below).

"I think that Xanana was extremely skilful throughout the
interview, attempting not to repeat what he had said in the
interview with the Governor while at the same time avoiding later
reprisals", Joao Gabriel insists.  "Frequently he said:  "I am
outside ... I have nothing to do with that".  Also, he regulated
very well his pauses and some long silences, giving to understand
that he did not feel what he was about to say."

Half an hour after entering the amphitheatre-prison, the
Portuguese envoy was to experience the most mysterious part of
this face-to-face encounter when, for some brief-long moments,
Xanana held on to his hand.  "When I get back to Portugal I will
reveal, to whoever wants to listen, the two sentences he said", he
promises.

Eleven hours were to follow, waiting for the censors' verdict.
The reporter spent this time in the house of the cameraman who had
captured on film the doubly historical interview - on account of
the significance and repercussions it would have both inside and
outside Timor, and because of the landmark it represented in the
life of independent radio and TV in Portugal.

"The cuts refer to the principle elements of Xanana's thinking",
Joao Gabriel would think.  When his work was given the green
light, it is lunch time in Lisbon. His biggest surprise would be
on account of the reply to the last question:  the "it is strange"
with which Xanana underlines the "reporter's astonish- ment at his
"act of contrition"."  Being used by the Indonesians?  Joao
Gabriel does not hesitate for a second:  If, by authorising the
interview, the Government's idea was to close the lid on the case
and come up with a trump card for the negotiations on the 17th
(between Portugal and Indonesia, under the auspices of the United
Nations in New York), the shot has backfired:  he managed to very
intelligently outmaneuver the military."  He says the Indonesian
authorities were not dissatisfied but thinks that they did not
realise just what they allowed to pass in the interview".

There is no point in them telling him that Xanana says he admits
the facts, that he no longer defends the same positions as before,
and that it is difficult to place a "no" where a "yes" was heard.

"He said, he said at the end, something very clear", he repeats.


THE COMPLETE, AUTHORISED, INTERVIEW

Joao Gabriel - Have you been well treated by the authorities since
your arrest?  Xanana Gusmao - I have always been well treated.

Q. Isn't there anything you can mention?
A. Nothing to mention.. (silence).  In fact I found it excessive
in comparison with my other companions.

Q. Have you been treated too well compared to your companions?
What you said in the interview with Abilio Osorio, did you say of
your own free will?
A. Yes.

Q. Are you, therefore, rejecting a past, almost half of your life,
the principles which you defended all these 17 years?
A. I am not a conformist, but ... (hesitation) I think that
...(hesitation), I think that ...(hesitation)  I should agree with
the facts.

Q.  Do you agree that, at this stage, integration is best for
Timor?
A. Yes, individually ...(hesitation).  I think so, because I have
nothing to do with more (silence) ... with other contexts.

Q. With regards Portugal, do you think it was and continues to be
the guilty party in relation to the situation in Timor?
A. I excuse myself from answering that because it is a question
that concerns Portugal itself
...(hesitation) At this time I ... (hesitation) do not hold the
same position ... as when ... as some time ago.  I have nothing to
do with that.  I think that Portugal ... should also reconsider
its own position.  (silence).

Q. Do you support integration?
A. Well, it depends on Portugal ... I have nothing to do with
Portugal.

Q. Xanana, these statements, the last ones that you have made,
will they eventually lessen your sentence?  Has anyone spoken of
that?
A. I am not interested ...(hesitation) in knowing about a reduced
sentence, since I accept responsibility for all of that, I accept
that ... (hesitation) I accept that I suffer the consequences of
all this rather than my companions, and I have spoken with the
authorities about this once.  I am prepared to receive ...
(hesitation) in the others' place, as the one responsible for the
situation provoked in East Timor.

Q.  Has the resistence in Timor finished?
A.  I cannot say, can I?  I cannot say.

Q.  But about the appeal you made for the members of the Falintil
to surrender, do you think that the Indonesian authorities are
sincere about the amnesty that has been promised?
A.  I cannot make any statement on that subject ...(hesitation)  I
made the appeal, now all depends on them.  They were not fighting
for me, they were not fighting for me.

Q.  When you were captured, it is said that a list of priests was
found in your house, and that they would have collaborated with
the resistence.  Do you confirm this?
A. Yes, I confirm it.

Q. Did the Timorese Church always help the resistence?
A. I confirm it.

Q. Mnsgr. Ximenes?
A. In one way or another.

Q. Xanana, why were you captured?  Was there betrayal, or was
there some imprudence on your part?
A.  I excuse myself from answering that.

Q.  Used you go often to Dili?
A.  Yes.

Q.  One of the problems in your respect which has been posed (and
which has been spoken about lately) is that of your nationality:
now, are you Portuguese, Indonesian, or Timorese?
A. According to the statements I made ... (hesitation) that I
signed as an Indonesian citizen ... (I take upon myself) all ...
all the consequences for my acts.

Q.  If the Vatican could, eventually, intervene and manage to get
you out of Indonesia, would you accept?
A.  No.

Q.  You want to stay?
A.  Yes.

Q.  Throughout the resistence in Timor, did you ever receive money
from Portugal?
A.  From solidarity groups ... yes, I received money.

Q.  Is it Xanana who, at this stage, has a legitimate right to
speak for the Timorese?
A.  I cannot state and I am (now) outside that reality.

Q.  There was recently a fundraising campaign in Portugal.  It is
your wife who is in possession of that money.  What would you like
her to do with it?
A. No ... (silence) I repeat that I am not, not (hesitation)... I
am entirely out of that question now.

Q. Xanana, when one day you get out again, are free again, what
would you like to do?
A. I also said this to the Indonesian authorities that
(hesitation) ... I have no ambition... other than to help that
people to ... to build itself up.

Q. To help the Timorese people, through integration with
Indonesia?
A. Yes, I think so.

Q. You led the resistence, and one of the questions on which
accusations against you could eventually be based is whether you
killed anyone directly, during those 17 years...

A. Whether I killed anyone directly?  To myself (hesitation) ... I
do not pose that question ... I do not pose that question ...What
I pose is my responsability over all the acts ...which took place
in East Timor throughout these years ... Of course, whether I
killed or not is something secondary ... All the acts, under
Indonesian law, are subversive ... So I take responsibility for
all that happened.

Q. Would you like to be extradited to Portugal?
A. No.

Q. Do you want to stay here?
A. In Timor, if it were possible.

Q. Do you have any particular message, at this stage, for anyone?
A. It is not the right time for messages. No, it is not the time
for messages for anyone.

Q. Are you being well treated?
A. Yes ... without reservations.

Q. The resistence (namely Fretilin) is accused of killing innocent
people.
A.  I believe that belongs to a past, about which Fretilin itself
has already (hesitation) ... already stated to the effect that it
recognised this error.

Q. Do you admit that there have been some excesses?
A. In the early days ... of the invasion.

Q. I again ask you, do you have any message for anyone in
particular,  for Portugal, for example?
A. No, I have not. (silence)

Q. Do you think that the negotiations between Portugal and
Indonesia still make sense?
A. That is up to them (to Portugal and to Indonesia), not up to
me.

Q. Wouldn't you like to send a message to the Portuguese minister
who will be meeting the Indonesian minister, Ali Alatas, on the
17th?
A. I have nothing to say. (silence)

Q. Xanana, by taking up this position - which I do not believe you
do of your own free will - are you not afraid that, one day, you
will be branded in history as a traitor?
A. One man alone does not make history. (silence).

Q. But isn't that strange, coming from the mouth of the man who
...
A. I am aware of that.

Q. ...of the man who, until just a few months ago, was part ...
and now ...
A. I am aware of that. (silence)

Q. And you say that of your own free will?
A. I am aware of that. (silence) If you don't believe it (silence)
you can believe it.

			       ooOoo


CENSORSHIP CUTS

The five Indonesian censors who accompanied the SIC-TSF envoy to
the police training school, where Xanana Gusmao is being held
prisoner, kept the cassettes of the interview for 11 hours, while
they cut out 8 minutes of the approximately 20 minute interview.
"Entire questions and answers", told reporter Joao Gabriel to O
Publico last night, during a telephone call arranged by Jakarta.
The main cuts were:

Two sentences were cut from Xanana's reply on whether he defends
integration with Indonesia:  "I am replying in a way in which, if
I were free, I would not" and "I think I ought to agree".  With
regards to the spokesman of the Maubere Resistance National
Council (CNRM), Jose Ramos- Horta:  Everything was cut as Xanana
only said "I am out now.  I don't want to say anything." - without
repeating the criticism of the first video.

Concerning Ma'Huno, the new armed resistance leader:  "If he
wishes, he has the conditions in which to carry on the fight."

Regarding the forthcoming New York talks: A long reply was
completely erased, in which Xanana spoke of "an international and
global solution for Timor".

				ooOoo


LOBATO SAYS XANANA CAPITULATED

"Xanana did, in fact, capitulate."  This is the comment from
Rogerio Lobato, Fretilin commander who, in a statement yesterday
to the SIC, once the interview with the ex-leader of the
resistance was known about, said it was "with deep sadness" that
he had seen a sunken, defeated and beaten Xanana".  He stressed
that "at this moment, Xanana is not the leader of the Timorese
resistance", stating that he was speaking on behalf of Fretilin.
He further added that his organisation had expected "much more
from Xanana".  "At a time when we had hoped that he would be
strong, he weakened, vacilated, and this is very grave."
Confirming that the current leader of the Timorese resistance is
now Ma Honu, with whom he said he had already been in contact, he
revealed that the latter had "sent a message from the interior
asking for support, support for the armed resistance, support for
the new leadership in the country's interior".  By way of
concluding, Rogerio Lobato further stated: "Xanana Gusmao demanded
a lot from our people, from our youngsters; just look at the case
of l2 November, when young people went out onto the street and
died for the flag which Xanana then defended:  the independence of
East Timor.  Xanana now says that integration is best for Timor;
it is, therefore, a situation which we cannot accept."

			       ooOoo

C.D.P.M.
R. Pinheiro Chagas, 77 - 3o.E, 1000 Lisboa, Portugal Tel.:
351-1-352 87 18 Fax: 351-1-53 40 09
** End of text from cdp:reg.easttimor **
Newsgroups: soc.culture.portuguese