From: markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: References of Christianity
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 02:47:50 GMT

PHIL wrote:

>>Well how about the way that you've just twisted the early history of Christi-
>>anity? FYI, The HOLY WAR (I assume you mean the First Crusade here) occured
>>more than 1000 years AD! Blamimg the christians for the Dark Ages is ludi-
>>crous. Contemporary Romans like Nero etc. preferred to make the Christians
>>scapegoats for the collapse of the Roman Empire when it would've been much
>>more productive to reform the corruption of the Empire itself. There is cer-
>>tainly ALOT more historical evidence for religion than a "small shattered
>>tablet". Guess you haven't heard of all the non-christian religions , some
>>of which, like Hinduism, have recorded histories much longer than Christian-
>>ity. But then, like you said, people, like you, are always twisting things
>>around to suit themselves.
>
I replied 
> Before you talk about such things, why don't you try and find out what
> really happened. Nero died long before the Roman Empire in the west
> collapsed. Nero tried to commit suicide in A.D. 68. He was eventually
> killed by one of his guards when he couldn't take his own life. The 
> first persecution of the christians happened in A.D. 64 after the fire
> of Rome. The christians were probably not distinguished from judaism at
> that point, and provided convenient scapegoats when people started
> accusing him of starting the fire. (Itself a vacuous charge). The
> persecution is recorded in Tacitus' Annals", who notes that the christians
> aroused sympathy for the cruelty of their punishment. They were torn apart
> in the arena by wild dogs (Not thrown to the lions), and used as torches 
> to light the spectacle. 
PHIL replied:
>>Why don't YOU try to find out what YOU'RE talking about? Historians have
>>been writing for years about how contemporary Romans considered Christians
>>to be a bad influence on the Empire. I believe that Gibbon addresses this
>>in his writings. The attitude was present before any systematic persecu-
>>tion began & probably facilitated the persecution. The fact remains that
>>Christians *were* persecuted for centuries in any case.


I DO know what I am talking about! You stated that the Roman Empire under
Nero persecuted Christians, rather than reform the collapsing empire. That 
is absolute crap. As I stated above, Nero lived long before the collapse
of the Empire. The Neronian persecutions, which seem to have been confined
to Italy, and probably Rome itself, were related to the great fire. 

The reasons for the periodic persecution of Christians in the Empire 
were extremely complex. At least part of the reason is that Emperors at
various times could not permit the christian flouting of Imperial authority
over all things. Much ink has been spilt over this topic and we are hardly
going to resolve the controversy over the net.

It is also true that Gibbons, whose views are long out of date, believed
that a part of the reason for the collapse of the Empire was due to the 
adoption of christianity as the official religion. The attitudes of the 
population of the Empire is impossible to characterise in simple terms.
Contemporary Romans were very superstitous, and very curious about new
religions including christianity. Some Romans such as Tacitus despised 
christianity-witness the famous statement in the annals that christians
deserved punishment because of their detestable practices. (Oddio Humani Generis). In fact their is considerable evidence that various gnostic christian
cults engaged in orgiastic rites, which would have greatly offended 
the average Roman. The Romans were sexually quite prudish, which is why
people such as Tacitus were offended by the behaviour of certain Emperors.

> 
> The last serious persecution of christians was under the Emperor Diocletian.
> The Emperor Constantine adopted Christianity as his religion after claiming
> to have seen a sign from god promising him victory in the civil war if
> he adopted the religion. By the time the Empire fell in A.D. 476, the 
> official religion of the Empire had been christianity for more than
> one hundred years. It is a sad irony of history that the church which had 
> been so savagely persecuted, became an even worse persecutor. 
                               >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
                               >>sounds like personal opinion to me
                               >>----------------------------------
No, an historical fact. The centuries of persecutions of other cultures
religions, and so called heretical forms of christianity is hard to dispute.

> a persecutor, but an instrument for the suppression of knowledge. Witness
> the destruction of the library of Alexandria by the mob, incited by the 
> Christian Saint Cyril.
>
i 

>>(The history books I've studied always credit the destruction of the Library 
>>of Alexandria to the moslems who conquered the city in 642AD) 
                       ^^^^^^^
I believe they prefer the term "Muslims". 


The final destruction of the Library was indeed under the Muslims. However
the Library was burned to the ground around 440. Parts of the library survived
and were finally finished off by the invaders.

>>Such "sad ironies" encompass virtually every ascendant culture &/or religion
>>the world has ever seen. Nothing extraordinary there. No doubt future his-
>>torians will discover many 'sad ironies' associated with contemporary cul-
<<ture as well.

Yes but surely if Christianity is so wonderful it should be different?
>>PHIL 
Mark C.

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