From: kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Re: Am I at fault? (was Re: Why must you act this way?)
Organization: I can't see any in the immediate vicinity...
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 10:34:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.215518.11732@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan17.082807.25346@nuchat.sccsi.com>, kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown) writes:
>|> In article <1993Jan14.191707.11710@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes:

[...]

>|> >I sympathize with your suffering.  Of course, I cannot fully know the amount
>|> >of pain you're going through and I won't pretend to.  But I ask you, is God
>|> >to blame for this affliction?  God only does things in our lives to serve
>|> >His purpose.  If afflicting you with Crohn's disease would have brought you
>|> >closer to God, He would have allowed it to happen.  As it is, you are NOT
>|> >being punished by God through this disease.  You committed no crime for
>|> >which you are being punished with thise disease.
>|> 
>|> Then you *admit* that he's not at fault for this particular woe in his life!
>|> 
>|> That being the case, you have little logical choice but to blame your God
>|> for that woe, because your God deliberately arranged this universe such
>|> that things like that would happen.  In short, Mike's suffering came about
>|> *directly* as a result of a decision that your God *alone* made.
>|> 
>Ever heard of someone named Satan?  Disease is his tool of choice.  Satan 
>hates you and he will do anything in his power to deceive you and lead you
>away from God.  God loves all mankind despite our shortcomings.

This doesn't wash, because you are ignoring a couple of important points.
Firstly, that your God presumably created Satan with full knowledge of 
what this Satan fellow would be all about (worse, deliberately *designed*
this Satan fellow to be the way he is), and secondly, that your God
deliberately designed the universe such that disease not only *could*
happen, but *would* happen.

You are also ignoring the fact that our shortcomings (lack of foresight,
imperfect memory, etc.) are all part of our design and as such are all the
result of your God's deliberate choices.


You cannot on the one hand say that we are created by an omnipotent and
omniscient God while on the other hand saying that what we are and what
we do are not the result of that same God's decisions.  The two are
immutably linked, because the latter is the logical result of the
former.  Thus, your belief system is internally inconsistent and
therefore illogical, and thus not to be taken seriously in matters
concerning the real world.

>|> Why would God punish us while we're on earth when He can do so when we die?
>|> How can you possible regard the undeserved suffering (like Mike's) that goes
>|> on as anything other than deliberate punishment?  After all, your God
>|> *deliberately* arranged the universe so that things like that *would* (and
>|> do) happen.
>|> 
>|> The answer, of course, is that your God is punishing us like this because
>|> your God *wants* to.
>
>God loves you.  He only punishes as a last resort and when we give Him no other
>alternative.  

Bullshit.  There is no such thing as "no other alternatives" when you're
talking about an omnipotent and omniscient entity, *especially* when said
entity is dealing with a being that it created and thus *defined* (possible
exception: when the created entity is, itself, omnipotent and omniscient.
Since those obviously don't apply here, this exception is irrelevant).

>As I've stated above, I do not believe that Mike's affliction is
>a punishment from God.

Believe what you want.  The fact remains that your beliefs (more precisely,
any belief system which has the same basic premises that yours does) are
internally inconsistent.  Indeed, for you to believe that your God "loves"
us when this same God created the very *concept* of suffering, to say nothing
of the *capabiity* of suffering, is to reduce the meaning of your use of the
term "love" to a pile of useless rubble.

A *truly* loving omnipotent and omniscient entity would invariably give to
those it loves whatever was necessary to make those it loves happy.  WHATEVER
IS NECESSARY.  No exceptions, because none are necessary.  Of course, since
this God of yours *defines* what makes us happy, meeting those requirements
should be trivial.  Strange that those requirements have not been met for a
large portion of the population.

Sorry, but logic leaves only two possible explanations: either that your
God *wants* us to suffer, or doesn't care.  Period.  Anything else violates
the premises of omnipotence and omniscience.

>|> Assuming, of course, that your God exists with the basic properties you
>|> mentioned before (omnipotence and omniscience).


-- 
Kevin Brown					kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com
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