From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Furstenburg and other things
Date: 15 Oct 92 06:48:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: uniwa.1bj48eINNd0f
Distribution: world
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au



david mardiste <dam@coombs.anu.edu.au> writes:

>In article <1aue65INNlm5@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> INFIDEL,
>wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au writes:
>>david mardiste <dam@coombs.anu.edu.au> writes:
>>>In article <1araklINNj85@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> INFIDEL,
>>>wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au writes:


>>Your wish is my command.
>>
>>The Arajs Kommando was led by a Latvian by the name of Janis Arajs who
>>was tried for war crimes  in the late 1980's by the International Court
>>of Justice. Proceedings of the Court's work can be obtained directly
>>from them.
>>
>>The daily, the Melbourne "Age" newspaper (Oct.3-4) carried
>>a two-page article by a former Australian prosecutor who'd been
>>investigating suspected war criminals in Australia, in particular,
>>collaborators with Arajs in the period 1941-1943. ...
>>
>...

>John, thank you for the quick reply. the SNews has been broken for the
>last week here, so it's been impossible to post a reply.
>I've read the article in "THE AGE" this morning and I'm waiting for the
>ICJ report from the law library. It has been good to fill in some of the
>details on these issues. However, I need some details on the support for
>this statement:

	[...]

>Can you support your statement 
>>...Estonian nationalists --- the sorts of people who instigated and
>>enacted the recent Estonian citizenship laws.

My assertion is that supporters of the Estonian citizenship law are
Estonian nationalists, meaning they claim a privileged position for
"true" Estonians, i.e. citizens of the inter-war republic and their kin. 
See below.

My central point is that the citizenship law, which denies civil rights
to the 40% non-Estonian population, places the Estonian government at
a weak position in respect of forces hostile to its existence,
notwithstanding its isolationist tubthumping (its own
hostile attitude to any form of federation with other xUSSR states
serves to aggravate its position).

This weakening of its position is achieved through the release of
social and other forces whose existence it may have underestimated.

It may very well be forced into a situation which it hadn't forseen
(much as Sheverdnaze has nearly been roped into a Russian-Georgian
military conflict this week over Abkhazia), a very dangerous one that
could cost many lives.

The enactment of the flawed citizenship law was a mistake and it should
be repealed or ammended. As an act of violence against the ethnic
minorities, it leads to legitimate retaliation by governments obliged
by international conventions to protect their nation groups on foreign
territory.


>This is important to me as I'm working on a paper which considers the
>political processes involved in the drafting and implementation of the
>citizenship law. So let me know what you have on this.  I've looked
>through " Estonia" around the law's drafting time and through clipping
>from Estonian press, RFE/RL reports, and on the Reuters Service in my
>research. There is nothing in the interviews I have with Tunne Kelam when
>he visited Australia in 1989 or in the documents of the ENIP. 
> 

Perhaps the most telling data so far are the figures reported by BNS and
ITAR-TASS (October 9,10) on Russian emigration from the baltics in 1992.
According to data of the Russian Migration Service, the rate of emigration of
Russians from Latvia and Estonia is increasing, but decreasing from
Lithuania  as follows:

		RUSSIAN EMIGRATION 1991/1992

  from		1991        	Jan-Jun 1992

Estonia		8200			17000
Lithuania	10000			6000
Latvia		13000			8500

Recall that Estonia's total population is a fraction of Lithuania's, yet the
emigration figure is 3 times higher --- as well as increasing at an
alarming rate.

Is it a mere coincidence that such high increases in Russian emigration
figures occur in the states that have enacted a citizenship law that
denies a basic civil right to the ethnic minorities on its soil?

With regards to the sort of people you have been interviewing and
reading about (if they are supporters of the citizenship law); they may
call themselves the Progressive Pensioner Party if they wish --- the
fact remains that an effect of their policies that's increasing in
importance is the driving of an ethnic minority  from the land of its
birth, thus strengthening the position of "true" Estonians, a term
given definition and normative weight in the terms of the citizenship
law, namely, citizens of the interwar republic and their kin.  Supporters 
of the bill are nationalists if not by will then by default; and they
would be rightly considered as such by the international community.

As a case to point, Radio Free Europe (Oct 13) reports that the Russian
Vice President Alexander Rutskoi reiterated Russia's threat to impose
economic sanctions on Estonia unless it altered its citizenship laws.
According to Reuter, citing BBC on 12 October, Rutskoi's major objection
was the language requirement.

The triviality of the requirement is not the issue; the issue is that a
requirement exists at all. The importance of learning 1500 words pales  in
comparison with the social forces released by state-backed dicrimination
against the ethnic minority. Already we are hearing reports of
desecration of Jewish cemetries (80 in Tartu, in the fourth such
incident since November; and firebombing of a cultural centre) ["WE"
Washington Bureau, last week of September]. In the same report, we read
of official sanctioning of celebrations to mark the 50'th anniversary of
the Estonian Legion, which later became the 20'th division of the SS
whose Einzatzgruppen Kommando units were responsible for the roundup and
execution of hundreds of thousands of Jews and others in the Baltic area.

Of course, injustice within Estonia's borders occurred on a far smaller
scale than in other nearby occupied states. That's to be
expected, given Estonia's small population. So it's naive to focus on
what happened within its borders, esp. with respect to pre-war anti-Semitism.
The WW2 deeds of some of Estonia's citizens, to the extent that Estonians of
a militarist bent joined fascist forces, travelled abroad and
participated in unwarranted mass-murders, and later returned to normal
civilian life in Soviet Estonia following defeat at the hands of the
Red Army, may yet prove to be to the detriment of the current
republic now that it's government has stumbled off-balance.

The exodus from Estonia includes Jews from a centuries-old
community in Tallinn. What could the emigrants possibly have to fear ?

Rutskoi is acting on behalf of the Russian minority within Estonia; he
is obliged to do this by international conventions which were drawn up
to guarantee the rights of ethnic minorities in foreign countries. In
this regard, Estonia's Progressive Pensioner Party has worked against
its own interests in supporting the enactment of a discriminatory law.


>political processes involved in the drafting and implementation of the
>citizenship law. So let me know what you have on this.  I've looked
>through " Estonia" around the law's drafting time and through clipping
>from Estonian press, RFE/RL reports, and on the Reuters Service in my
>research. There is nothing in the interviews I have with Tunne Kelam when
>he visited Australia in 1989 or in the documents of the ENIP. 


I hope that in your study of the political processes involved you have
not been distracted by what the parties themselves say, ostensibly in
all honesty.  The most important thing is the effects of their
decisions. 

The dangers of some decisions are quite well known. Unfortunately, some
academics of an empiricist bent wrongly dismiss talk of the dangers as
irrational "prophecies".  Maybe these academics ought to read Toynbee.



>>>From a political science perspective and from policy analysis it is very
>>>easy to understand why the previous Estonian government adopted the
>>>citizenship laws they did. 
>>
>>From the perspective of building a strong nation whose citizens will
>>prosper etc., in the context of current events in the immediate
>>vicinity, the decision was insane.

>interesting use of the word nation and the word nationalist. 

I am aware of the difference between citizenship and nationhood (=
ethnicity); as well as the French/ German Romantic use of the word
"nation" as "nation-state".



>I'm a bit
>lost on this vague reference. please list "the current events in the
>immediate vicinity"

"Immediate vicinity" can include Abkhazia, as well as
Bosnia-Herzegovona, Croatia and Serbia.

It can also instructively be taken to refer to the pro-Estonian
nationalist agitation within nearby Finland as exemplified by recent
reports and commentary from our Finnish observer friends in this
newsgroup.


>> >>If you're refering to the old republic, then I submit the flourishing of
>>SS mass-murder divisions -- the SD -- such as the Arajs Kommando, as
>>evidence of the rabid nationalist character of enough of the
population of the time.  

>My statement is to those who support the citizenship laws now - but I
>have not seen any docs on the "flourishing" yet.


How many Estonians did it take to fill the Estonian Legion? And how many
did it take to fill the special Einzatzgruppen Kommando?

It's not just dribs and drabs; to fill a division, there must be broad
appeal. The appeal was the promise of Estonian independence from the
Soviet Union. Men joined a fascist cause in the hope of winning their
nation's independence. Doesn't this strike you as a pair of strange
bedfellows? What about when their cause was baptized in Gypsy and Jewish
blood?

And what happened to these men after the war? Where did they go?

Old habits die hard.


>>>In fact, it seems, that for historical reasons,
>>>German nationalism (see any basic history on Estonia) was more
>distrusted
>>>than the Russians were before the Soviet occupation in 1940-41. 
>>
>>Arajs and his ilk didn't shoot the occupying Germans or Russians, but
>>innocent Jews and Gypsies in their thousands. The men in these
>>mass-murder divisions were Latvian and Estonian, and were schooled in the
>>art of murder by Goerhing's henchmen who were German. 
>>
> Arjas and his ilk are not all or even most of the population of Estonia
>then or now.  

Nevertheless, Arajs's ilk can still place the rest of the population in
a situation which it had not bargained for. The nation can be dragged
into conflict whether it wants to go or not. 

This is called "politics".

The Estonian government decision has placed the nation into a
susceptible position.

This is called "stupidity".


By the way, Radio Free Europe (Oct 13) reports that four of the sixteen
units of the Estonian Defense Union (Kaitseliit) have announced they
will henceforth take orders only from the president, not the Ministry of
Defence. According to Paevaleht of October 12, the units made the
decision because they do not trust the Ministry leadership. Reacting to
the announcement, outgoing deputy defence minister Hannes Walter told
reporters it was time for Estonia to subsume all armed units under full
state control, saying that any other initiatives could be dangerous both
in domestic and foreign terms.  

Signs of a split between government and military --- maybe it will
pass over without festering.



>The efficiency in which those units carried out their
>crimes cannot attributed to the people who lived in Estonia in WWII.  Do
>you know how many Jews or Gipsies lived in Estonia at the outbreak of
>WWII. The number was very small 0.4 % of the population in 1922 and 1934
>-- approx 4,434 people from the 1934 Census. The Nazis appears to have
>executed 6,000 people in Estonia, most Jews, Communists and alleged
>Communists sympathisers. Given the practice the Nazis had in other
>European Countries it is not surprising that the murder of these people
>would have been quick. This quickness reflects more on the practice of
>the German authorities than on a complicity by the citizen of Estonian,
>weather they were Russian or Estonian. 

The average Estonian's complicity is not at issue here. At issue is the
remnants of past sentiment and Estonian government short-sightedness.



>>>My sources indicates that Estonians mostly drafted/joined home defence
>>>units (Gr Selbstschutz) or the German army or police and the Waffen SS.
>>>Estonian soldiers did serve in the cannon fodder units which were the
>>>waffen SS. (as you know not all things branded SS were elite Pure German
>>>Units). The Waffen SS served as the combat units for foreign
>>>nationalities. The special forces that acted in Klooga and Kalevi-Liiva
>>>death camps were not Waffen SS, although these units did contain some
>>>Estonians, as well as other nationalities. 

>>>To say that the existence of these units that you mentioned means that
>>>ALL estonians served with them is a bit of a gross generalisation. 

>>That is why I did not say it. 

>>To deny the nationalist character of the Estonian citizenship laws is to
>>invite the repetition of history, of insane interethnic conflict.

>You've cited examples of the SD units operating in Latvia, and
>Belyorussia against unarmed civilians and communist party people. I
>imagine that the people arrested and murdered were not armed and most
>likely executed in a manner that does not suggest inter ethnic conflict. 
>These people did not have a chance. So I'm not real sure that you have a
>historical justification to say, based on the murder of people during
>WWII, that the new citizenship law will lead to inter-ethnic conflict. In
>fact you have to prove that "inter-ethnic" conflict was the cause of the
>6000 people murdered from Estonia. The emphasis here is on the use of the
>term "inter-ethnic".

The "nationalist character" of Estonia's Progressive Pensioners is
self-fulfilling notwithstanding claims made at the enactment of their
citizenship laws. There are already signs of the indiscriminate
injustice of their nationalist politics, namely desecration of Jewish
cemeteries and Russian en-masse emigration. Nationalist politics does
not discriminate between ethnic groups; there is only "us", in this
case, the "true" Estonians, and "them", in this case, everybody else
born on Estonian territory. Interethnic conflict has already occurred
in Estonia --- the "true" Estonians' denial of civil rights of the 40%
ethnic minority is an act of violence towards them. 40% of the
population born on the territory has already been denied its right to
participate in deciding its country's destiny in the recent free
elections. As for the ultimate effect of the Progressive Pensioners'
separatist tub-thumping, circumstances point to military conflict with
Russia; thus, Yugoslavia is repeated in the Baltics.

All this despite the advent of mass-communication and technology. Nobody
learns from history when self-interest gets in the way.



>>>The following is a quote from an article by Toe No~mm Vice Chairman of
>>>the Society of Estonian War History, Published in The Monthly Survey of
>>>Baltic and Soviet Politics, December 1991 pp12-13.
>>
>>>"True, that during the German occupation thousands of Jews were killed
>in
>>>Estonia and besides German officials and special troops this was done by
>>>Estonians. But it was so all over occupied Europe wherever crimes like
>>>these were committed the "help" of local residents was used. The
>Estonians
>>>are just as guilty as he Belgians, the Latvians, the Poles, the French,
>>>and so on."

>>This is the kind of obfuscation one can expect from a patriot (is he 
>>also a nationalist ?). Does he call himself a historian? What a disgrace.

>I have no idea of what is or is not a nationalist in your parlance. 

See above. It has something to do with the ethnocentricity of one's
views. In the above example, the Vice Chairman of the Society of
Estonian War History admits that "during the German occupation
thousands of Jews were killed in Estonia and besides German officials
and special troops this was done by Estonians." 

Then he pleads diminished responsibility in, "But it was so all over
occupied Europe wherever crimes like these were committed the "help" of
local residents was used. The Estonians are just as guilty as he
Belgians, the Latvians, the Poles, the French, and so on."  But his
plee betrays a lack of perspective (see below) which raises doubts
about his appreciation of the culpability issue.


>But
>argument ad homminim (attacking the person and not their propositions) is
>an old Sophist trick not worthy of being distracted by. 

I have restated the case without the "old Sophist trick" of ad homminem
remarks. And I have not been too distracted by your inability to
correctly spell the word.


>>Estonians are NOT "just as guilty as the Poles", for instance. There was
>>never a flourishing SS mass-murder division consisting of Poles killing
>>Jews and Gypsies or anyone else.  I hope you understand the difference
>between
>>compliciting individuals and compliciting institutions. 

>you have not justified the flourishing point yet. 

See above.


>>(The Belgians had their Flandria Division; and the Ukranians had their
>>feared fascist UPA. The French had a compliciting government as well as
>>French SS divisions.)

>>Institutions do not die out in a mere fifty years.

>when is an institution an institution? other countries have had a very
>long history of anti-Semitism. It difficult to say that this was the case
>in Estonia in the independence period, I need some data on this
>flourishing first!  Especially in Pre WWII Estonia.

The institution I am referring to is the entrenched feeling of
nationalism (i.e. ethnocentricity) that spurred some Estonians to ally
their cause with the Nazis, which has spurred the separatist tubthumping
of the Progressive Pensioners, and which has given rise to the enactment
of a citizenship law which denies civil rights to a 40% minority.  The
nation's destiny is linked to this institution in the way I explained
above.

Nationalism does not discriminate between victims: it's just "us" and
"them". Who "they" are depends on the mob's flavor of the month.



>>>Obviously, this issue is important to you or why waste the band width
>and
>>>the time.

>>5 years from now, Western liberals and Estonian nationalists will be
>>dismayed at and abhorred by the interethnic slaughter in Estonia.
>>They'll wonder what went wrong; and while Western liberals sit back in
>>their cushy armchair having another wine, the Estonian nationalist will
>>be out on the street killing yet another  non-Estonian in  a
>>"revenge-killing" that "had to happen".  Maybe "ethnic cleansing" will
>>then seem like a very good idea.
>>
>a very grim scenario and one that I am terrified of, but one that is not
>shared by all non-estonians in Estonia.  

This is not surprising, as I'm sure some non-Estonians harbour a desire
for a Greater Non-Estonia of their own, hence excuse the Estonian
Government's selfish actions.


>See some of the interviews on
>the Reuter's service in the last two weeks.  I have not had a chance to
>see Sovietskaja Estonia for the last few weeks but, I will report what
>the writers in the paper have to say in time

>>>However, I would like to know more about the groups that you
>>>mentioned and if you have any details you could send and especially the
>>>exact numbers of estonians that were involved with the units you
>>>mentioned. 

>>I'll dispatch this information soon.

I'm sure your paper will enable you to get lots of nice grants.


>>>David Mardiste

>>John Wojdylo

>David Mardiste

John Wojdylo
Melbourne, Australia
October 14, 1992