From: nigel@rs733.GSFC.NASA.Gov
Subject: Re: Matriarchal Societies...Fact or Fiction
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md, USA
	<BuIyHB.2HL@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <1992Sep14.174706.28465@mks.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:26:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.174706.28465@mks.com> viktor@mks.com (Viktor Haag) writes:

[(Axly) writes: something along the lines that Matriarchal societies
 tend to agarian and therefore suffer from stagnation]
 
One minor caveat is that there is no real evidence to state that
matriarchal societies have any predisposition toward argarian
lifestyle...even if most or all of the examples have that tendency.
After all a lot of male dominated socieities are agarian and therefore
mostly stagnant...at least one major historical empire with a lot of
advantages succumbed to the agarian pitfall (China).

>Oh, Yes!  I think we can all agree that the expansion of the city
>state through armed agression, the perpetration of oppressive economic
>class based systems upon the uneducated majority, the inculcation of
>state-church partnerships remain obvious advantages when faced with
>the horribly brutal life of the average _primitive_ society.  I mean
>after all, we civilised euro-caucasians can stand proudly and declare
>our obviously greater intelligences, moral fibre, and proximity to
>heaven ...

You might be sarcastic but most people would agree that the progress
from primitive culture and lifestyle to current day levels are obvious
advances.  Any doubts to the "correctness" of industrialization and
"aggression" one only needs to look at the dominant nations in this
world.  Nature takes no excuses and plays no favorites...if your
society is non-competitive it will be overrrun by those that are more
competitive and have the technological advances to force the issue.

By the way...the above is like describing a steak as beef muscle
tissue torn from a dead carcass...to which the obvious response it
that I'll take it medium rare with a side of greens.  That
technological and social advances has bad side effects (like fat in
steak) does not lessen the evolutionary edge given to those societies
that adopt the industilization/technological mindset...and those
socieities are not limited to euro-caucasian societies (even if it did
start in that part of the world).

[other stuff deleted]

>I am not saying that you don't have a point, but I think you should 
>realise the racist, patriarchal, eurocentric roots of your statement

Racist?  You're pretty quick to cry wolf eh?  Is it racist to point
out that western civilization kicked the butt of eastern civilization
despite a healthy head start on the eastern side until the east
adpoted the same trick called scientific advancement/industrialization
as the west?  That bows and sails dont measure up to cannon and
steamships?

>about rutting around in the dirt with sticks.  Don't think that
>merely because you have risen above the dirt in your gleamingly clean
>condominium, you have somehow elevated your intellectual, moral
>or philosophical status.  We have merely become different, not better.

I disagree...having risen above the "dirt" I now have the freedom to
pursue intellectual, moral and philosophical advancement...and
therefore probably are better in those areas (if I choose to be).

If the majority of my time was spent on grubbing out an existence I
have no opportunity to pursue the luxury of thinking (although my
friends would deny I took advantage of such luxury ;-).  It is only
because this society has advanced to the point where we not only have
the luxury of thinking, reading, and learning but also that it has
sufficient resources to expend on technological advances as well as
material surplus to lay tons of wire and mircrowave towers that we
have this conversation at all.

People who prattle about the virtues of the primitive life simply has
not experienced being a dirt poor mud grubber who has reached the
point where his or her technology is insufficient to support the
population density of the land they live on.  Having relatives
approaching that state I can assure you the the virtues are limited
indeed...and the choices small.  They tend to be either starve or kill
your neighbor and take their land and food.

>-- 
>Viktor Haag					viktor@mks.com

Nigel Tzeng

obrpg: How have GM and players gamed high tech people caught in low
tech situations wihtout their tech base?  We've tried a couple Kalven
of Otherwhen scenarios that lead to interesting research on how
technology advanced and the pitfalls of not knowing the intermediate
steps.  We had a lot of fun taking a primititve society and figuring
out the changes caused by the introduction of nifty things people
could remember how to make.  Gunpowder didn't turn out nearly as
useful as the horse-collar or stirrup.  I had projected that metal
working was relatively primitive.  Attempts to make useful cannon and
guns were aborted because no one knew how to make barrels until a
quick side jaunt to the library and a field trip to see
Williamsburg...by that time they had other problems and never got
around to it ;-).
--
Nigel Tzeng
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