From: mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Mike Levis) (OS/2)
Subject: Re: Rude behavior on this group.
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Distribution: world,local
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:16:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.224536.13196@microsoft.com> craigdo@microsoft.com (Craig Dowell) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.074830.3234@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Mike Levis) (OS/2) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec16.234708.18159@microsoft.com> richs@microsoft.com (Rick Schaut) writes:
>>>
>>>You just flunked Economics.  It is my position that demand must be such
>>>that vendors will be able to sell at a price which exceeds the additional
>>>costs.  It is demand which makes the whole thing possible in the first
>>>place.
>>
>>I demand to buy a computer without DOS or Windows pre-installed.
>
>I can trot down to my local Dodge dealer and try to get all of the options in
>a package minus one or two.  I can demand all I want.  This won't make it 
>happen.  
>
>The factory has decided what the most popular configurations are and
>are mass producing them more cheaply than hand crafting each car from lists
>of thousands of options.  
>
>Maybe you should let your favorite computer manufacturers know that
>you want this option.  If enough people want a blank disk, or a disk with 
>some other OS on it, you'll get it.  If you're in a minority, well, you'll
>just have to found a company and do it your way.  I suspect the company 
>wouldn't last long though.  You would be competing with companies which are
>giving the vast majority of people what they want.  You would be catering
>to the few people who want to do it on thier own and save ten or twenty
>dollars.

The issue is not whether someone wants a specific OS preinstalled but
whether someone can get a computer without DOS and Windows for a credit.
(In my case, I already had OS/2 2.0 GA and I was willing to install it
myself.  I just wanted to buy the computer without paying for DOS and
Windows.)

>>>No kidding this is not 'free'.  I get what I want with less hassle and,
>>>probably, for less money.  Not only is this not 'free', but, in terms of
>>>opportunity costs, it's money in my pocket.
>>
>>I bought a computer, but it had DOS and Windows pre-installed.  Instead
>>of being able to get a faster processor, or a larger hard drive (I need
>>the disk space, too many .gifs!) I had to spend that money on the "free"
>>DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1!!!  Sure, its great for people who want DOS and
>>Windows, but I am forced to subsidize these people instead of buying
>>more hardware from the computer seller (components are much cheaper when
>>you by them with the computer).  Take some that money in your pocket and
>>give it to me...
>>
>>>Presumably people who don't want a machine bundled with Windows can ask for
>>>a machine without Windows and get a machine without Windows.  So what's the
>>>problem?
>>
>>!!!!!
>>
>>If a computer maker would give a hefty discount on Windows (or OS/2) only for
>>customers who asked for it, and install it for them, no problem here.  But
>>that is not the case!  I called different computer sellers to get a machine
>>(for my copy of OS/2 2.0) and they would not sell me a computer without
>>Windows 3.1 and DOS 5.0.  Give me a good reason why I would need Win and DOS
>>when OS/2 2.0 run my apps.  Give me a good reason why computer sellers will
>>not sell computers without Win and DOS.
>
>There is no reason that _you_ need a copy of win31 or dos5.  There are reasons
>for companies to put them on all machines.  
>
>There is a demand for ready to run systems.  People are tired of installing
>and configuring operating systems before they can do work.  There have been
>legions of people running around in companies who's job it is to install dos5
>and win31.  This costs money.  People can save a considerable sum of money
>by buying computers that are ready to run.

Ready-to-run computers is not the issue.  I already said I support it.

>Given that there is a demand for computers with ready to run software how is
>it that they chose to do only dos5 and win31?  Two reasons:  demand and cost.
>Believe it or not, these companies think that most folks who buy PCs either
>want to run dos or windows.  A few (comparitively speaking) want to run OS/2
>or linux or nextstep or unix or whatever proprietary system they need.

Ready-to-run software is fine, too.  The issue is whether people can
have DOS and Windows deleted for credit -- these people can install their
"proprietary" software on their own.

>Do you know how much it costs to build a separate product?  More than you 
>may think.  There are separate part numbers and bills of materials.  This 
>means different contents of the boxes.  Different contracts to be negotiated
>to get the different contents into the plant.  Different assemblies to make
>which means different assembly lines (or set-up and tear-down).  Different
>legal agreements between the companies sourcing the software.  Separate 
>accounting to make sure the different people involved get paid.  Tracking
>quality on multiple products.  Different marketing for the different products
>aimed at different people. Advertizing. Customer support.  I'm sure the list 
>goes on, but this is off the top of my head.
>
>So.  A company ships dos and windows with the one product they build.  They
>satisfy the majority of people.  If enough people want to have a kind of
>system, and the company can see that it can make money even when it has to
>eat the costs associated with producing the new product, you'll get it.
> 
>Like I said:  If there are enough people like you telling manufacturers that 
>you don't want win31 and dos5, they will begin making machines without them,
>or with whatever OS you want ready to run.

Most dealers are willing to customize their computers for customers.  A
customer can specify various processors, RAM sizes, hard disk sizes,
floppy size, monitor (color or monochrome), etc.  And dealers are willing
to install modems, video cards, hard drives, tape backups, etc. that the
customer buys initially.  Yet dealers cannot remove DOS and Windows from
the hard drive when they test the computer's final configuration?  And
they cannot keep DOS and Windows floppies/manual instead of "selling" it
to people who don't want it?

>If all of you folks that don't want win31 and dos5 spend all of your time
>railing against MS on this group, and spend none of your time letting company
>B know what it is you want, you'll never find a system without win31 on it.

I'll ignore your flame, but how is not wanting DOS and Windows equal to
railing against MS?


>>P.S.  Did you ever buy a PC?  I remember an MS guy posting "lessons in
>>      economics" in June or July, but he was a *Mac* programmer at MS.
>>      If that person is you:  try to ask computer companies such as, say,
>>      Radio Shack, or CompuAdd Express, if they will sell you a computer
>>      without DOS and Windows.  They respond with something like "Sorry,
>>      we can't do that".  Even if that was not you, see what happens when
>>      you call or visit.
>
>Ok.  These folks at Radio Shack and CompuAdd Express won't sell you the 
>equivalent of a Stealth R/T without the turbochargers.  Well, neither will
>Dodge, Nissan, GE, LTV, or any other company that sells standardized products.
>Maybe if you go to a company that specializes in custom products you can get
>exactly what you want.  Don't expect it to be cheaper, though.

Wrong.  CompuAdd Express (and many other places) do customize computers
(you'll need their catalogs; it probably costs too much for these companies
to list all their options in an advertisement) except they cannot delete
DOS and Windows.  (BTW, their prices are very low, too.)

DOS and Windows are not integrated into the computer.  The copy on the
hard drive can be easily DELeted.  The floppies and manual can easily be
sold to someone else.

>I don't understand why the computer industry is seen as having to be so much
>different from any other industry.
>
>-- Craig



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==== Mike Levis   mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu ====
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