HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dwj@hpcndm.CND.HP.COM (Dave Jerzycki)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Going to San Franciso!
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:01:24 GMT
Organization: HP Network and System Management Division


> Well, as the subject line says, I'll be in San Francisco for several days
> in October, and I'd like to taste some "authenic" SF sourdough!  [If that's
> possible!]  Well, does anyone have any recommendations as to a good place
> to find any?  As I'm going to SF for a business convention, I'd like to
> have something fun to look forward to!

> Thanks,
> Pamela
----------

 I just came back from a business trip out there and sad to say, there
 'ain't' no such animal.
 I tried the sourdough at Boudins on the Wharf and tried a sourdough from
 Pariesienns, not much if any sourdough flavor. Are my tastebuds jadded??
 I make sourdough at home with the Goldrush starter and the San Francisco
 sourdough from Ed Woods. It has a very distinquisable sour flavor that I
 found lacking in the breads out there. I was truely disappointed.
 By the way, although I never had a chance to fully explore this, but the
 Goldrush starter I purchased in Boulder cost $2.75, out there the same
 starter ran from a low of $3.95 to a high of $5.25 at the stores I looked
 at! Rape dem tourists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 Good luck in your quest.

 Dave
From: dancer@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Requests for starters not yet filled
Date: 28 Aug 92 00:46:16 -0500
Distribution: na
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

Sigh, I haven't yet gotten the time to dry out the starter I have....
But I promise I will....this weekend I hope.

Thanks for everyone's patience.

---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---
Dream Dancer                               dancer@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
aka                                        dancer@acm.rpi.edu
Martha Underwood                             Four cats and a
                                             burmese python
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: fsf@hpic006.mentorg.com (Rick Farnbach)
Subject: Re: Storage Containers
Date: 31 Aug 92 09:56:53
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corp. Wilsonville, OR
Followup-To: rec.food.sourdough

>>>>> On 31 Aug 92 14:56:36 GMT, searsk@med.ge.com (Kevin Sears) said:

	Kevin> I want to buy bulk flour(50 or 100 lbs bags) but I do not have a bug/mouse
	Kevin> proof container that is large enough to hold that much flour(I hate to
	Kevin> think of using 100-1 lb coffee cans!). The wife wants something akin to
	Kevin> tupperware's ability to seal tightly.

	Kevin> Suggestions?

I go down to the local Winchell's Donut and ask them for plastic buckets
w/lids.  Depending on who is behind the counter I get one of three
responses:

  1) Here you go.
  2) That'll be $1.00 each.
  3) We don't sell those.

My best luck has been on weekday evenings, not including Fridays.

They seal tightly, but mice might be able to chew through the plastic,
though this has never happened to me.  They hold 4 gallons which is not
quite big enough for a 50lb bag of flour, so you will need more than
one.  They are not clean when you get them.

Rick
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Storage Containers
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 17:21:06 GMT

In article <FSF.92Aug31095653@hpic006.mentorg.com> fsf@hpic006.mentorg.com (Rick Farnbach) writes:
>I go down to the local Winchell's Donut and ask them for plastic buckets
>w/lids.  Depending on who is behind the counter I get one of three
<...>
>
>They seal tightly, but mice might be able to chew through the plastic,
>though this has never happened to me.  They hold 4 gallons which is not
>quite big enough for a 50lb bag of flour, so you will need more than
>one.  They are not clean when you get them.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	Hmmm.  What did they keep in them?  Was it food or waste
or something else?  I'm tempted to try my local Winchells for
some of these but I'd like (1) food-grade plastic and (2) something
not-too-disgusting inside  (I don't want a bucket that's been
used to mop floors - yuck).

Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
#include "witty_sig.h"
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: searsk@med.ge.com (Kevin Sears)
Subject: Re: Storage Containers
Followup-To: rec.food.sourdough
Organization: GE Medical Systems
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 20:13:24 GMT

> I want to buy bulk flour(50 or 100 lbs bags) but I do not have a bug/mouse
> proof container that is large enough to hold that much flour.

Thanks for the many replies which generally seem to settle around used food
storage containers(e.g. 5 gal buckets).

I was about to go on a quest for the perfect "used bucket" when I happen to
be wandering through the cafeteria at work. Guess what? They have such
buckets(ie 5 gal) and are willing to depart with them FREE of charge.

While they are "clean", I have to get rid of the pickle smell(or whatever
food product was held captive in them). I might try the suggestion about
lining the containers with food grade plastic bags too. Will let you know.

Kevin D. Sears
GE Medical Systems
searsk@med.ge.com
(insert disclaimer here)
(insert funny here)
(insert wisdom here)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT))
Subject: Flour Mill
Summary: What, where, how much
Keywords: flour,mill
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:47:03 GMT

Two people have asked about the flour mill I mentioned in an earlier post so
I thought I would just make the reply public in case there were others too
shy to ask directly.

The flour mill is item # 555 from the company Back to Basics, Inc.  Their
address and phone number are as follows:

   11660 South State Street
   Sandy, Utah  84070
   (801)572-1982

I bought mine in a kitchen store in a mall in Evansville, IN for $75.  The
brochure that came with it welcomes inquiries for catalogs so I imagine that
they make direct sales as well.

The unit is about one foot tall, two inches wide, and eight inches long when
fully assembled (includes crank).  It fits very nicely inside one of my
kitchen drawers.  The grinding faces are nested steel cones with teethed
surfaces so oily grains are not a concern.  The output of the mill is
continuously adjustable from coarse to fine via the screw that holds the
crank handle on.  It is designed to be clamped to the edge of a counter
top or table when in use.

My impression, as a complete tyro to grain milling, is that this is a very
solid unit.  The only plastic is the removable bin on the top of the unit
for holding the grain to be ground.  Unfortunately, I am having trouble
finding a local source for whole grains so I cannot say how well it works.
The brochure says that it can produce about 1/2 cup of fine flour per
minute.  I assume that this is at a less than aerobic cranking speed.

One more thing.  The manufacturers warranty is for two years.  They also have
a complete parts list to order replacements from as needed.

-- Chris Teegarden (cat@acd4.acd.com)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Requests for starters filled
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:41:08 GMT
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article C4p@fc.sde.hp.com, fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp)) writes:
|dadams@cray.com (David Adams) writes:
|: I thought I was going way low when I tried the Alaskan as low as 65 deg. F.
|: When it worked I tried the Russian.  It worked too.  In each case the
|: rise is much longer than when using the 85 to 90 deg suggested in the
|: FAQ or in Ed Woods book.
|
|Do you get a corresponding increase in sourness, or does the lower temp
|slow down the bacilli as well as the yeasties?
|
|Gary

I believe that this culture had a tendency to be more sour at higher 
temperatures, but I am not willing to state this unequivocally since
there are so many other factors that could have been involved.  I
have only tried it at room temperature once.  It worked so well that
from now on I will be doing that more regularly.

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: GOMBERG%UCSFVM.BITNET@CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Going to San Francisco
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 28 Aug 92 10:51:37 CDT


From: Dave Gomberg <GOMBERG%UCSFVM.BITNET@CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>


>#	Subject: Going to San Franciso!
>
>Hello,
>Well, as the subject line says, I'll be in San Francisco for several days
>in October, and I'd like to taste some "authenic" SF sourdough!  [If that's
>possible!]  Well, does anyone have any recommendations as to a good place
>to find any?  As I'm going to SF for a business convention, I'd like to
>have something fun to look forward to!
>
>Thanks,
>Pamela

As far as I know, there is only one commercial sourdough baker left in SF,
but that is enough.  They are Boudin, and they have a satellite bakery on
Fisherman's Wharf (the only reason to go there, it is a terrible tourist
trap).  The main bakery (and the whole show practically) is at 10th AVENUE
and Geary St., about a $6 taxi ride from downtown, or take the 38 Geary
bus for $1 each way.   The 38 Geary is an express, and if you get back within
two hours, one $1 fare will do for the whole trip.  Boudin has maybe 8 loaf
shapes, three flavors (sweet, sour, extra sour) and two colors (regular and
dark).  Have fun!


#	From: Dave Gomberg <GOMBERG%UCSFVM.BITNET@CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
#	Subject:      Re: Culture Problems

OK, my wild starter does fine for raising, but IT IS NOT SOUR.  I have
used milk in place of water for making the next generation, and that
seems to make it a bit sourer, but it is not very sour (maybe not sour
at all, just a little "winey").  Any suggestions?




Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu (Andrew D Petersen)
Subject: First Timer Question
Organization: CAD-Research, University of Iowa, Iowa City
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:59:53 GMT

 Hello,

 I have been reading this group for several weeks now and decided to give this
 sourdough thing a try.  I started a culture from the local atmosphere on 
 wednesday this last week and the it started bubbling up good on friday.  I
 gave it two 12 hour proofs at 92 degrees (in oven temp with oven light on) and
 made sourdough molasses pancakes for sunday breakfast (Delish).  I gave the 
 culture one more proof and it looked really healthy (lots of bubbles, froth,  
 able to stir it down) so I went for sourdough wheat bread yesterday.  I 
 started the proof in the morning before work and added more flour at noon.  
 I started the mixing and kneeding at 5:00 and we were eating three loves of 
 fresh hot sourdough bread at 9:30.  The first rise took 2 1/2 hours.  

 Now my question is: Is there something wrong here? I was under the impression
 I was in for a longer wait?  Did something happen to the culture, or are the
 critters in the air here just unusually reproductive?   

 Am I on the wrong track or the right track???

 Puzzled,

 Andy

-- 
  Andrew D. Petersen   (N0JST)                 E-mail : petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu 
  Research Electrical Engineer                US Mail : CAD-Research 
  University of Iowa                                    212 ERF 
  Phone : (319) 335-5723                                Iowa City, Iowa 52242 
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Culture Problems
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 25 Aug 92 10:50:10 CDT

 julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:

|The first time I used the Russian culture it was not real sour,
|but boy has that changed!  It is now a very sour culture.
|I occasionally use a tbsp of it to start a rye culture and
|that will get *really* sour and can smell like vomit.  When it
|smells like this it won't rise.  I'm sure that Dave can fill
|you in on more of these stories ;-)

Indeed I can.  It is interesting to me how similar our experiences
have been.  We both got our cultures independently from SI.  I love
this culture for rye bread inspite of the strong smell had sometimes
in the proof.  I use it often in the recipe entitled, "David's Wheat
and Rye Bread" given in the archives in the file blac.bread.  I have
been trying to see what it is that causes the inability to rise 
when the culture gets to its sour worst.

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: sm@jyu.fi (Seismo Malm)
Subject: Re: viili
Followup-To: rec.food.sourdough
Summary: yeah, you are right
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:51:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.144049.2560@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes:
>An update on the viili
>
>The first batch came out like fresh (un-cured) goat cheese.  
>(or goat milk curd?  Like they use in the Mexican restaurants.)
>A grainy white curd had seperated to the top of the bottle and 
>the whey had collected at the bottom.  I seperated the two and 
>composted the whey.  The curd had a grainy look like grits or 
>cream-o-wheat.  It was nearly tasteless.  I ate it on my taco 
>salad.  My family members refused to taste it.  They all thought
>that I was trying to poison them.  I was fascinated that
>the milk culture would have coagulated like this with out
>any rennet added.  I wonder if I can use this process to 
>make a cheese.
>
>I thik that the culture behaved this way because the proof
>was a little too warm.  So I mixed more milk in with a bit
>of the curds & whey and put it back to proof overnight. 
>
>This time it came out like a thick and slimy yogurt.  I suppose
>this is more like what the viili was supposed to be like.  I
>haven't tasted it yet.
>
>---
>--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
>___________________________________________________________________
>       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
>
You got it right on the second time. Low fat milk tend to produce
a slightly slimey type of viili, I like most viili that has been made
from about 4%-5% milk.

Rennet is not needed for some types of cheese. Here in Finland
are several varieties of so called fresh cheeses availlable.

try this
3 l milk
    youghurt or viili starter
    salt

warm milk to about body temperature. add starter. let sit for about
4 hours in warm place. warm the mixture to about 50 C-60 C (I don't
remember the exact temperature offhand, temperature is right when it
starts to separate). let sit for some hours and separate cheese from
whey. add salt (and spices to taste)

seismo


-- 
-------
   sm@tukki.jyu.fi  (seismo malm)

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?)
Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 16:38:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.125157.24979@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> ccbjr@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (charles.c.bahr..jr) writes:
>In article <Bto1Mr.u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) writes:
>>Just a quick corection:  I stated, or implied, somewhere along the
>>line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and
>>breaks it down into sugars.  I know better than that.  The reason one
>>malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch.
>>The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase,
      ^^^^^^                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>but apparently the amylase is from the grains.  This amylase would
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and
>>add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are
>>produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and
>>lactobacilli.  
>>
>>Sorry if I confused anyone.
>>

>Well, now I'm really confused.  Why is it that bread can be made without
>added sugars?  Is there any way yeasts can eat starch, albeit slowly?
>Thanks for any info.
>
1) Bread is made from ground up grain...with water added, so the amylase
   in the flour results in a partial digestion of the starch, resulting
   in sugar.
2) The yeast in the starter (which has been added to the bread) digests the
   sugars from the grain-provided amylase, thereby producing more amylase
   from the yeast.
3) The yeast-provided amylase results in more sugars from the starch getting
   digested by the yeast-provided amylase.
4) The yeast digests the new sugars making more yeast-provided amylase.
5) Go to step 3...

BD

PS: Note that in the above cycle, no sugar or sweeteners were added, just
    starter, flour, and water.
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: spgo@is.morgan.com (Stefan Goellner)
Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification
Organization: Morgan Stanley - IS
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:58:51 GMT

Dave Adams asks: How is Barley malted.

Barley is malted by partially germinating it and then drying it. The length
and heat of the drying process determine the color of the barley and hence the
color of the beer. Brewers yeast, to the best of my knowledge does not
produce amylase.

Stef
	     DoD#0190		              spgo@is.morgan.com
	'82 KZ550 (Commuter)		'84 750 Interceptor (Canyon Carver)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT))
Subject: Taking orders
Summary: Ready to send starts.
Keywords: russian,culture,starter
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:04:02 GMT

I have just finished activating the starters I have received in the mail
so far.  They are Bahrain, Russian, Alaskan, and Gold Rush.  If anyone
wants one or more, send the usual self addressed, stamped envelope with
suitable number of ziplocks to:

   Chris Teegarden
   2623 Cruft St.
   Terre Haute, IN  47802

Towards that end, I have a question about preparing dried versions.  Is it
best to let the wet culture digest most of the gluten before drying it to
make sure that the lactobacilli count is high, or does it really matter?
If this is covered in mailing list FAQs, could some nice person mail it
to me?  Our site only has dialup access to Internet so I am limited to
ftp sites with mail servers.  If any of these have the files, please
feel free to send me that info instead.

-- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com)
From: searsk@med.ge.com (Kevin Sears)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Storage Containers
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:56:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: 3.searsk-310892095306
Followup-To: rec.food.sourdough
Organization: GE Medical Systems

I want to buy bulk flour(50 or 100 lbs bags) but I do not have a bug/mouse
proof container that is large enough to hold that much flour(I hate to
think of using 100-1 lb coffee cans!). The wife wants something akin to
tupperware's ability to seal tightly.

Suggestions?

Kevin D. Sears
GE Medical Systems
searsk@med.ge.com
(insert disclaimer here)
(insert funny here)
(insert wisdom here)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: livings@unislc.uucp (Ross Livingston)
Subject: Re: Location of the FAQ
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:18:27 GMT

The FAQs and the archives are at ftp.ils.nwu.edu in pub/sourdough.


-- 
Ross Livingston, Unisys Corp.  |  Phone   (801) 594-6217
322 North  2200 West,   D1V03  |  Fax     801-594-4861 / 801-594-6708
Salt Lake City, UT   84116     |  E-Mail  livings@unislc.slc.unisys.com
From: jane@data.tamu.edu (Jane Harvill)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Sourdough on a diet
Keywords: Potato
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:17:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: tamsun.1992Aug28.181742.11695
Reply-To: jane@data.tamu.edu (Jane Harvill)
Organization: Department of Statistics, TAMU

I feed my sourdough sugar, potato, and warm water
about two times a week.  Other starters only require
water and flour.  The starter I have is very hardy
though.  The others don't seem to be.  
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche)
Subject: Re: more on the biology of sourdough
Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:09:54 GMT


Thank you Christina for your explanation of plasmids.  Sounded right
to me.  I can't remember if the main bacterial chromosome participates
in conjugation or not.  I certainly associate conjugation with the
exchange of *plasmids*, not the main chromosome.  I originally had a
mini essay on plasmids in one of my postings, but it was getting too
long and involved, so I just axed it.

Plasmids in sourdough bacteria do _not_ seem to contain genes to allow
fermentation of particular sugars.  Which sugars the bacterium is able
to utilize seems to be encoded on its main chromosome.  Plasmids _do_
seem to encode for the toxins many sourdough bacteria produce, and
presumably for resistance to these toxins as well.  If you put a
plasmid free strain of the "right" bacterium into a sourdough starter
it gets eliminated by strains that do have plasmids.  I don't know
what else (of importance to sourdough) might be encoded on plasmids.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology        |"We admit no more causes...
Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405    |than such as are both true
                                             |and sufficient." I. Newton
From: zola@hardy.u.washington.edu (Queen of the Netherlands)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: in search of the perfect loaf
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:21:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug27.192125.26478
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle





More questions ---
After my yummy first try I want to fine tune some things.

One- I would like a sort of dome-loaf, like in the stores, instead of
something that must be in a bread pan.  (Ultimately to be baked on 
my tiles).  How do I get enough body to do this?

Two- When I made the bread, the denseness was ok, but it rose, and then
sank a bit in the middle.  WHY?  I was careful about rise times, etc.
Did this have anything to do with trying to make a slight incision down
the center of the loaf - puncturing the dough?

Three- last night I started to proof a new batch, then decided I did not
want to get up at 1:30 and 4:30 to knead.  (mea culpa) So I just put
a little over a cup back in the jar (after about a 6 hour first proof with
flour added).  And I saved some for friends.  The rest got tossed.  Is this
starter ok at room temp for a day or two? should I feed it?  Is it possible
to save too much starter from a first proof? (do the yeasties run out of
food?)

All info greatly appreciated, thanks.

-Rebecca Lowell                               zola@u.washington.edu
-----
love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. at night, the ice weasels come.
-nietzsche via matt groening