HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: That Elvis thing
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:07:17 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <2AA3B3C4.5538@orion.oac.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <1SEP199207445068@rosie.uh.edu> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark
>Blandino) writes:

>>I felt the same way.  I remember feeling my heart sink into the
>>pit of my stomach when I heard that Clinton selected Al Gore as
>>his running mate.  It wasn't Gore himself, it was Tipper that made
>>my heart sink.  While Gore isn't that great, he at least has our
>>view of the envirnoment and is working like a dog trying to change
>>things for "Mother Earth".

>I think this is far more important than Tipper's snowballs'-chance-in-
>hell of coming into power.  Come ON -- when was the last time the First
>Lady But One did anything?  I was delighted to hear that Al Gore was
>chosen.  Read some of his book about the ecological crisis and tell me
>you don't want someone that knowledgeable in the veep-seat. 

I would like someone as knowledgable as Al Gore in the Veep-Seat.  I just don't
want Al Gore himself to be in the Veep-Seat.

>>While the thought of Tipper being so close to power, I had to sit
>>back and think. Bush = No; Perot = No; Clinton = Yes then
>>Quayle = No; Gore = No.  
>>
>>So I plan to vote for Clinton and hope to hell that we can keep
>>a reign on Tipper.

>I don't think we have to worry about that, honestly.  She did puh-LENTY
>without being anywhere NEAR what you call "power."  What difference is
>this going to make?  Al Gore's knowledgeable environmental policy is
>worth the vanishing chance that Tipper would stage a coup d'etat. 

Ahhh...  But let's not forget that Al Gore has given constant backing to Tipper
Gore since he's been in office...

Janis, perhaps you're right on this one, but I still don't like it...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: Masons/Knights Templar
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:29:09 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

>>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
: > 
: Um, there is a logic problem here.  If everyone who is up to 32nd doesn't know
: about this Luciferian concept, then only the 33rds know about it.  That means
: that the Mason's aren't really Luciferian, since only a couple people in the
: world would know about this.  Actually, from what I've heard, the only 
: Luciferianism in Masonry was one interesting person who interpreted Masonry
: to fit his own ideas.  Since all Masons are encouraged to fit Masonic symbolism
: with their own religious ideas, this means that most Masons will see
: the symbols through their own Christian religion.  There may be other Masons
: since the one author who've adopted a Luciferian posture, but that is not
: inherent to Masonry.  Masonry is neither pagan nor Christian, and is capable of
: being interpreted to fit with either.<<

This is good.

: 
>>: Disclaimer, I am not a Mason (yet).
:             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
:               Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
:                                Br'anArthur
: 
: Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)<<

And highly unlikely that you could become one as in masonry homosexuals are
not openly admitted.

Eshin-Fun

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aciordia@nyx.cs.du.edu (Andy Ciordia)
Subject: NFO!
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 02:05:36 GMT

Merry Meet All..  
I was refered to this place to post (ALT.PAGAN) thru the IRC (The WICCA
conf)  I need some info, I am looking for Occult shops and people willing
to teach the information in North Carolina (specifically Charlotte) if you
can help, or have suggestions, please let me know..  Thanx..
Damon
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <was: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?>
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:36:51 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <BtqCJM.Ezo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>>A number of Templar gravesites have been found in Scotland, and their is 
>>fair evidence that at the very least they were influential in the Masonic
>>Temple, and participated in a number of battles against the English.
>
>Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've 
>seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory.  Eddie, can you help us out
>with a date for the origins of Masonry?

Hmmm...  If that's "my" Eddie, he doesn't read alt.pagan.  However, one
of the earliest references to masonic style organizations is contemporary
with Queen Elizabeth (and Dee and Kelley and Bruno), so say, early 1600's.
For more information, look under Rosicrucians in the index of Frances 
Yates' Giordano_Bruno_and_the_Hermetic_Tradition.  How does this compare
with dates on the Templars?


-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Eyes (was Re: Chocolate (was Re: "gangway, folx"))
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:29:25 GMT

In article <30iFqB3w165w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>> Again, if we are going to carry this to its rightful conclusion, which
>> you have stated above by saying that all true and correct Pagans have
>> eyes like mine, that means that any Pagans who can see their hands in
>> front of their face without corrective appliances in anything but strong
>> sunlight are not real Pagans.  Paganism is blind, and so is love,
>> therefore love is Paganism.
>>
>> Blessings,
>> Janis the Poorly Sighted but Okay with Corrective Lenses
>>
>yay!  i DO have proper pagan eyes after all!  the color may not be correct, but
>they function the same.  but i wear glasses (i don't trust contacts, and my
>eyes are sensitive).  read a lot in your youth, janis?  and how FAR in front of
>your face?

I'm one of those people who are called "compulsive readers."  I'm
berserk about it (or as I spell it when I'm in a fanciful mood byzurka
bout it).  I think it has something to do with how my mom read to me.  I
knew how to read before I was in kindergarten, and I have no clear
memory of learning.  My mom has since told me that she used to plop on
the couch, sit me in her lap, and hold the book in front of both of us.

Funny, because whenever I open a book, I get this cocoon-like feeling of
total security; I fall into it and won't even respond if someone calls
my name.  She told me that one day I just asked her to show me the
words, and she took my finger like a pencil and did so.  Little did she
know she was teaching me how to read . . .

And as to how far away from my face -- hon, I used to lay my face on one
side of the book on the table to read the other side.  I'm just pissed
that now that I know better, my eyes are still deteriorating.  They're
not overly sensitive, though, and they're healthy as hell -- I just can't 
SEE out of `em.

Blessings,
Janis the Myopic  

P.S.: Thank god/dess for contact lenses, though.  For my entire pre-
adolescent life, I never really knew what I looked like.  Think about it
-- if you back up enough from a mirror that you can see yourself, *I*
couldn't see anything without putting on my glasses.  Those damned
things hanging off my face had more to do with my poor self-image than I
care to contemplate; they were coke bottle-bottoms even in grade
school. 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Hitler and Christianity
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:39:13 GMT

ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
: In article <1992Aug25.223444.19219@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, 
: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: > 
: > Oh, I don't think any are upset about the mention of ritual. The
: > ones that were upset, including me, were the ones that did not
: > like your definition of Paganism.
: 
: [deleted ...]
: 
: > :   That I was getting these nasty letters at the time that I was
: > : first trying to get a handle of what alt.pagan is about has,
: > : admittedly, left me rather touchy about posting here.  Especially
: > : since there's a good chance that any post I make will earn me
: > : a couple of week's worth of responses (public and private)
: > : reminding me that I'm practicing a lifestyle, not a religion.
: > 
: > Well, you are practicing a lifestyle. Whether that lifestyle consists
: > totally of your religion is a matter only you can decide and define.
: > To others, their religion is only part of their life - as such, they
: > object to the restrictive definition that you have used.
: 
:   You still seem to think that my talking about my religion
: places dogma upon others.

No. Sorry if you got that impression. My only objection was when you
appeared to place that label on others. What the words mean to you are
for you alone to decide.

:   I am content with the thought that there's lots of you who
: do not like my description of my religious practice.  I'm used
: to that.

I think we are just having a matter of communicating. Probably my
fault. As I stated above, I have no objection to how you describe
your religion or your religious practices.

:   But I'm not going to stop calling myself a Pagan.

Good.

:   Bill, what is your objection to my calling myself a Pagan and
: saying that my religion is Paganism?

:   Please be specific in describing how my definition of myself
: is a definition of others.

I will try to express myself a little better - maybe we can clear up
what appears to be a misunderstanding.

I have no objection of how you define yourself - I never have. I only
complained when you appeared to globally apply this label to others.
Even then, I only complained because the label appeared, to me, to be
too restrictive. In other words, I know many people who feel they are
practicing Paganism/paganism (which should it be?) who did not fit
your definition.

My apologies of you felt I was attacking your personal beliefs in any
way. I had, and do not have, any such intent.

73 (Ham lingo)  ;-)
Bill
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Scott Mayo no longer on Net
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:06:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.011037.26871@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>: Mary K. Kuhner (mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu) wrote:
>: 
>: : Scott Mayo asks me to let the Net know that he has lost Internet access,
>: : and to apologize to those who were in the middle of discussions with him.
>: : He will be out of contact for the indefinite future.
>: : 
>: : Other people whose links are through wang.com may also be affected.
>: : 
>: : Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
>: 
>: Hmmm...did he get fired, or what?  I was almost starting to enjoy his particular
>: brand of narrow-mindedness - *much* less so than some other pagan-bashers I've
>: seen in the past...
>
>Hm. Was he that much of a basher or did he just sincerely believe that people
>who hold pagan beliefs are wrong?

Sorry. I never found him much of a basher; he never once told me that I
was wrong for being a Witch and a Pagan.  I have in the past had people
pray for me, tell me that Christ was my one lord and savior, and tell me
that I was uneducated about christianity (despite going to 12 long years
of catholic school, where they were mostly tolerant of other religions,
comparatively), and ask me what went wrong with me to turn me into a
Pagan (Well, it was a boring night in the lab, and someone left this
smoking vial of green liquid around, and I was a little thirsty, 
so . . . ).  Scott just pontificated a bit, but he never struck me as a
basher.  

>I found his postings no worse than those who bash particular groups of pagans
>or, for that matter, some who bash the mainstream religions.

You ain't kidding.  He was no worse than many of us, and goddess knows
no worse than me on a bad day. 

>Why do so many pagans feel that they have the "one true way"? You would think
>that they would have learned by now. I guess it is just too much to ask of
>people - no matter what their beliefs.

No one ever said stupidity and narrow-mindedness respected religious
boundaries.  Pagans are no different from anyone else, although ON THE
WHOLE I have found them to be pretty okay.  Why do you think I'm still a
Solitary? 

>Bill

Blessings,
Janis
From: alizard@drc.UUCP (alizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: More Survey Garbage
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 16:25:36 PDT
Organization: BLa Bla Bla Bla Bla BLa BLa Concord,Ca

So we have a couple of Xtians making threats and harassing people via
alt.pagan ... 
70006.101@CompuServe.COM
Attention: Jim Chaffranek
 
If you want to complain about the Colvins, that's one place to do it.

Also, the Compuserve voice phone is available from 800 telephone 
information, go through their voice mail until you get to their
technical service representatives. 

Also, complain to root at any account other than Compuserve that
the Colvins post from. 

The Colvins state that their only posts were on alt.satan. Personally,
I don't believe them. 

Blessings to everyone except the Colvins...
alizard
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: True Xtianity (was Re: Hitler and Christianity)
Date: 4 Sep 92 12:28:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <4SEP199206223394@rosie.uh.edu>, lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes...
>If you ever get a chance to take a class like this with a
>Medievalist that does mixed personal religion in with their stuff
>I would highly advise it.  It has opened my eyes in ways I never
>thought it would
> 
>Tammy

OOOOOPPPPPPSSSS

I meant Medievalist that does *NOT* mix personal.....

you get the picture
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else
From: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (Anthony 'the Bard' Hobbs)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:51:35 GMT
Reply-To: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
 <1992Aug25.000207.10316@csus.edu> <2A99A23A.6198@orion.oac.uci.edu>,<l9knkaINN6vp@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
Organization: Wellington City Council, Wgtn, NZ

In article <l9knkaINN6vp@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh) writes:
>In article <2A99A23A.6198@orion.oac.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>>I wish I could disgree with ANYONE on this, but I can't.  All I can say
>>is that i will have MY FINGERNAILS PULLED OUT BEFORE I WILL STAY IN A
>>COUNTRY THAT IS LIKE THIS.  I *WILL* LEAVE.  I HAVE THREE DEGREES IN
>>VERY TECHNICAL SUBJECTS; OTHER COUNTRIES WOULD BE HAPPY TO ACCEPT ME.  I
>>WILL TAKE MY KNOWLEDGE AND SUPPORT ELSEWHERE.  I'm not happy about the
>>idea of leaving, but I refuse to work for a country like this.  I
>>fucking refuse.  I would PREFER to do work in the US since it has seemed
>>IN THE PAST to be a fairly nice place, but we'll see.  Hopefully one day
>>it will be the country my grandparents came to with such high hopes in
>>the 1890's. 
>
>I feel exactly the same way. With my training and my wife's, we can do
>quite well most anywhere in the world. I rather like the idea of New Zealand.

You'll both be very welcome. Look me up if you get to Wellington. :-)

anthony
--
Anthony Hobbs             the Bard                hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz    
OverPope, First Holy and Unreformed Church of Frozen Yoghurt - romantic poet - 
synth player extraordinaire - kate bush is goddess - hail Eris - praise "Bob"!
DISCLAIMER: I am not Romanian and was not head of the Securitate for 15 years.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Subject: Re: yet another weensy question from you-know-who
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:11:41 GMT

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>This occurred to me a while back and I never resolved it.  I was GOING
>to post and see if anyone knew anything I didn't, but forgot to.  

>ANYway, I was wondering if there were any non-xtian symbolism behind a
>sand dollar.  I already KNOW the xtian symbolism -- you're talking to
>someone who did 12 years of the catholic school thang, so don't bother
>to post that.
>Blessings,
>Janis   

Curious indeed.. I really have no idea, but one possibility I can think
of is that there are no sand dollars in mediterannean(sp) or north
atlantic waters.. Actually, I have not seen ANY sand dollars on the
East coast of the U.S. that I can remember..last time I remember seeing
any ( in their natural environment ) is in California where I grew up.
Does anyone know the demographic geography of sand dollars ?

Blessed Be

/al


-- 
***********************************************************************
Al Aldrich	inet:aaldrich@encore.com
"..if you understood everything I said, you'd be me." miles davis
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu (Nancy Proctor)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 20:52:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.150314.15189@husc3.harvard.edu>
wilde@husc9.harvard.edu (Robert Wilde) writes:
      (Lots Omited)
>
>Yep, the Democrats don't really seem to be standing to the push.  Of course,
>I'd never vote for Bush, so we really don't have much of a choice... unless
>we take Thomas Jefferson's words to heart.  Hmm, that's an idea.
>Bob
>
>--
>|Robert Wilde|
>

What exactly was that quote? Something about a little revolution now and
again being a good thing?   Eric Hoffer, in _The_True_Belivers_ has some
interesting things to say about how those things get started, what lures
the masses into them, and how leaders keep the ball rolling.  Its kinda
scarey shit.  I'm afraid I'm not ready to go that far . . . yet.

Blessings,
Nancy
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New pagans and reading
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:04:51 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <2AA57400.1570@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>Rosalind Miles's _The Woman's History of the World_  NOT written by a
>ballbreaker, despite the title.  It has literally NOTHING AT ALL in it
>that a mancould possibly find offensive of biased.  It is there to
>CORRECT a bias, and the first few chapters will give you a nice overview
>of what are called "matriarchies."
>
I'd be particularly careful to balance your reading of this book with
reading of history/archaeology etc.  Its a great book.  Its brilliant
feminist polemic, but Miles is prone to state opinion as fact and
theories as proven.  Two examples : she states that the Eve Hypothesis
is widely accepted.  In fact it is very controversial. (I'm not saying
its not true, just that its not proven.)  She also states that the
Eleusian mysteries climaxed with a woman representing Demeter giving
birth to a sheaf of corn.  Now this may well be likely, it may well
even be true, but the fact remains that the secret of what exactly
happened at Eleusis died with the last initiate, so we'll never really
know.  

She also cites 5th centuary (bc) Athens as an example of a woman friendly 
society - a view I quite frankly find odd.

That said, it is a great book.

Alison
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Subject: Re: a party
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 22:37:16 GMT

In article <2A9FD339.6548@orion.oac.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <1992Aug29.143028.26119@news.iastate.edu> txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>
>They also represented the old "working folk" mythos that this country
>purports to love so much.  Pagans are seen as devil-worshippers, New Age
>mystics with their heads in the clouds, or just wimpy little
>flower-lovers (why not condoning religious oppression or any other kind
>makes one a "wimp" is something I never quite understood).  We won't get
>the respect we think we deserve.  We will be seen by the rest of the
>country as some Californee-phenomenon like pet rocks and love beads, no
>matter what.  The country is just too far to the right right now for us
>to be perceived any other way. 
>
>>500k? if every one of those people donated .50$ then there would be
>>250K$ in the cofers for bying are time and making comershals. us 
>
>Which will buy you not even one minute on one of the big networks. 
>
>>area pagens and a home camera and most of that would go for are time.
>>this group would not be *just* for pagens it would be for every one
>>with an alternit life style. You dont nead a trillone doller budgit
>>to git your vouce herd. there are oganizations with smaler budgets
>>that git there mesige threw.
>
>The sentiment is appreciated, but I'm afraid not possible.  Home-made
>videos will look chintzy and amateur.  People who are exposed to
>gezillions of hours of TV every years will expect more.  We will be
>laughed at.  The system as it is simply does not encourage success of a
>social phenomenon working so far outside of it.  
>
>Blessings,
>Janis 

In many communities the cable company (ies)  are offering classes in filming
and producing tv shows for airing on cable channels.  With a little effort
and some training some of these shows actually become quite good.  Rather
than a political statement a tv show can be a half hour educational show
on comparitive religion and freedom of choice.  Who knows, it may be better
than bending over and grabbing your socks as the far right comes marching
through.
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan