HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: akin@sgi.com (Allen Akin)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: more bad reports on MSR filter
Date: 9 Oct 1992 22:41:46 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: tuolumne.asd.sgi.com

In article <1992Oct8.164510.12304@networx.com> bonn@networx.com (David Bonn) writes:
| How many days were you out?  How much water did you filter?  It took about
| a hundred gallons of filtering to completely clog the final stage. ...

I'm sure I filtered less than 100 gallons, probably less than 100
quarts, over three trips ranging in length from 2 to 5 days, 7000' to
13000' altitude, roughly 3 days off-trail and the rest on-trail.  I
cleaned the metal screen (only) after each trip, and allowed both the
carbon and paper filters to dry a few days before storing them between
trips.

Did you notice any gradual increase in pumping effort?  So far I haven't.

|      ... with two people cranking back several gallons of water per day, this
| translated to a bare three weeks of backpacking.

100 gallons / 2 persons / (3 wk * 7 days/wk) is about 2.5 gallons/person/day.
(10 quarts/person/day).  You guys are well-hydrated; I think my average
consumption rate is less than 4 quarts/day.

I wonder if your usage level would be a problem for all of the filters
in widespread use today, not just the MSR.  Do you have different
experiences with a PUR or Katadyn?

|                                        ... These people are out on the trail
| between fifty and sixty days between June and September, drinking that water.
| You'd think they would be at more risk for G. than the typical hard-core
| backpacker who is out about twenty days per season and doesn't have to handle
| honey buckets. ...
|            ... It is certain that I have been exposed to Giardia and probably
| harbor a few in my digestive tract.

Possibly that accounts for the high tolerance in the people you mentioned.

|                       ... This raises an interesting question:  if most
| water is safe without a filter and you aren't out that much (thus not
| rolling the dice that often), how would you know if the filter had
| worked or how effective it was at removing microbes?

Having once acquired a significant GI infestation (in Nepal), I'm not
eager to be the subject of a controlled experiment.  I'm willing to
rely on effectiveness estimates made by researchers with reasonable
credentials.  Comments from other folks with substantial experience
(e.g. Bill Tuthill) are also useful.

I can certainly understand the desire to avoid water filters and
certain other vestiges of civilization when you're in the wilderness.
If you prefer to go without them, by all means, do so.

Allen
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jojo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Joanne Spetz)
Subject: Re: Backcountry in the Movies
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 04:18:24 GMT

In article <15007@auspex-gw.auspex.com> johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:

>This brings up an interesting possible thread.  That is, a discussion of
>movies which were not actually about the backcountry but featured some good
>shots of the backcountry,  while being good movies in their own right.  
>
>The Gods Must Be Crazy (I & II) -  The original was one of my favorite movies
>and I finally saw the sequel just awhile back and if anything it was better.
>It also makes some pretty serious social commentary.

Interestingly enough, the producers of those films did not heed the moral
of their own story.

For those who haven't seen The Gods Must Be Crazy, the general jist (in
twenty words or less) is that cultures can be very fragile and one should
be careful about the influences one brings into another's world.

In the process of making the second film, Western culture completely
overtook the life of the man who plays the hero.  He was exposed to film,
alcohol, money, and fame.  Any one of those things would confuse the life
of an African tribesman; all four were devastating from what I've heard.

So I suppose this brings us to the standard moral dilemma:  in the process
of educating others you often risk destroying that which you are trying
to protect
	--African tribal life in this case
	--Perhaps nature documentaries lead to the destruction of
	  areas due to increased tourism
Should you continue to try to educate?

Joanne
-- 
Joanne Spetz				Economics Department
jojo@leland.stanford.edu		Stanford University, sunny CA

Political advice to Mr Bush:  "Dumpe Quayl"
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Bears attacking people?
Date: 16 Oct 92 22:34:34 GMT
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center

In article <1992Oct16.12428.13921@ms.uky.edu>, miles@ms.uky.edu 
(Stephen D. Grant) writes:
|>mssmith@afterlife.ncsc.mil (M. Scott Smith) writes:
|>
|>>I certainly wouldn't ever take a gun hiking (or ever buy one, for that
|>
|> Forever is a long time. Maybe someday you will find the need to defend your
|>wife or child, and realize that a firearm is the only true means of
|>equalization
|>Do I sense an anti-gun sentiment?
|>

Dream on, buddy.  Been watching too many backcountry Eastwood and
garbage WWIII movies ...

--
Greg Jahn Boise State Univ.|'I decided to just lie low and let events
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu /|take their course. Maybe that's the way
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    /|the sheep think as they are led off to the
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  /|the slaughterhouse.' On marriage, Camilo Cela
From: lisap@olomana.soest.hawaii.edu (Lisa Petersen)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Are gaz (butane) cartridges available in Chile?
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:14:36 GMT
Organization: School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology
Originator: lisap@olomana

Greetings!

Does anyone know if those blue Gaz cartridges are available in
Chile?  If not, what fuels are available?  I've got a choice
between my white gas stove and a butane stove, and I hope I can
at least use the latter (I have no hope for white gas).

Thanks a lot!

Lisa Petersen
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: randy@raven.alaska.edu (Randy Hayman)
Subject: Re: Bears attacking people?
Reply-To: randy@raven.alaska.edu (Randy Hayman)
Organization: University of Alaska - Fairbanks
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 20:48:15 GMT

 sherod@newton.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod) writes:


|>
|>If I recall correctly there have only been 5 (maybe 7) deaths 
|>attributed to bears in Yellowstone in the last 100 years.
|>
|>The last was north of fishing bridge and east of the river in
|>the Summer of 1984 (Pelican Lake ?).
|>
|>Scott
|>


There were at least 3 cases up here this summer where tourists were *eaten*
by bears, and at least one case of a resident being eaten.  Bears usually don't
*eat* humans, though.  3 of the 4 species, to my recollection, did the eating
part.  I know, if I'm wrong about that somebody will correct me.

randy@raven.alaska.edu
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Backcountry in the Movies
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:06:11 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Oct15.041824.15296@leland.Stanford.EDU> jojo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Joanne Spetz) writes:
>In article <15007@auspex-gw.auspex.com> johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
|
|>This brings up an interesting possible thread.  That is, a discussion of
|>movies which were not actually about the backcountry but featured some good
|>shots of the backcountry,  while being good movies in their own right.  
|>
|>The Gods Must Be Crazy (I & II) -  The original was one of my favorite movies
|>and I finally saw the sequel just awhile back and if anything it was better.
|>It also makes some pretty serious social commentary.
|
|Interestingly enough, the producers of those films did not heed the moral
|of their own story.
|
|For those who haven't seen The Gods Must Be Crazy, the general jist (in
|twenty words or less) is that cultures can be very fragile and one should
|be careful about the influences one brings into another's world.
|
|In the process of making the second film, Western culture completely
|overtook the life of the man who plays the hero.  He was exposed to film,
|alcohol, money, and fame.  Any one of those things would confuse the life
|of an African tribesman; all four were devastating from what I've heard.
 
That's unfortunate.  The man certainly was endearing.

|So I suppose this brings us to the standard moral dilemma:  in the process
|of educating others you often risk destroying that which you are trying
|to protect
|	--African tribal life in this case
|	--Perhaps nature documentaries lead to the destruction of
|	  areas due to increased tourism
|Should you continue to try to educate?
 
The effects of "civilizing" such cultures has been well documented.  Cultures
which are given access to tobacco, alcohol and other vices have changed 
people which didn't have the "benefits" of a "civilized" culture into a people
with a large population of alcoholics and tobacco addicts.
-- 
+==========================================================================+
| John Fereira        | Auspex Systems | "Ask me about my vow of silence." |
| johnf@auspex.com    | Santa Clara CA |                                   |
+==========================================================================+
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Encountering contraband in the backcountry
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:15:44 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   Tue, 6 Oct 1992 23:20:15 GMT
>FROM:   Steve Harris <vsh@etnibsd.uucp>
>
>In John McPhee's recent New Yorker article about California geology he
>reports that several geologists have been killed by marijuana growers
>in remote parts of California.  Seems the Feds mascarade as geologists
>when tracking down the growers.
>
>-- 
>... Steve Harris - Eaton Corp. - Beverly, MA - vsh%etnibsd@uunet.uu.net

Sounds like the cops have some of the same ugly habits as the spies. CIA 
used to put reporters at risk by their love of journalistic "cover". 

--Michael Smith

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: rtp1@quads.uchicago.edu (raymond thomas pierrehumbert)
Subject: Re: Helly Tek: Another Goretex Clone?
Reply-To: rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 02:08:17 GMT


>I live in Nova Scotia, Canada where our weather can often change during the
>day - sometimes more than once.
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
An understatement if ever I heard one.  One time, just paddling across
L. Kejimkujik,  I counted SIX major changes in the weather.  Had
just about everything but snow.

Getting back to the thread, I have a Goretex jacket, but helly-tech
pants.  The pants don't seem to breath so well as gore-tex, but
they are less crinkly, and they did a good job keeping out water.
I used them in Swedish lappland, where we had to ford a lot
of streams, and I'd stuff them into the top of my gummiboots
and tighten the laces.  They even kept water out pretty
well under these conditions.
From: dudley.chi@xerox.com (Tim Dudley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Backcountry in the movies
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:52:41 GMT
Organization: bnr
X-Xxdate: Thu, 15 Oct 92 11:54:31 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d11

Haven't been following this thread so I apologize if this has already
been mentioned, but:

  "The Black Robe" is a stunningly gorgeous movie, filmed in the
   Saguenay region of Quebec.  Scary scenes of people canoing up
   the Saguenay fjord dodging ice floes...

  It's also pretty depressing - enough to give Christianity a bad
  name.


Tim
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bonn@networx.com (David Bonn)
Subject: Re: Bears attacking people?
Organization: NetWorx
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:33:00 GMT

I see two general viewpoints coming up in this discussion.

The first viewpoint will argue that the wilderness areas and the like belong
to us, not the bears.  They will also argue that the federal government has a
responsibility to protect us against major hazards like carnivorous animals in
national parks.  They will also (understandably) strongly object to being
eaten, or having friends and relatives eaten.  The problem with this viewpoint
is that if the government has a responsibility to protect us from hazards in
wilderness areas, they will usually do so by prohibiting travel in wilderness,
or (worse) by turning the parks into paved parodies having more similarity to
Disney World than to real wilderness.

The second viewpoint will argue that the wilderness areas and the like belong
to the occupants thereof, not to us.  They will also argue that we're all part
of the food chain, and not always at the top, and that it isn't real wilderness
without having large, dangerous animals which might eat you hanging about.
While they probably don't harbor fantasies of ending their life in the
digestive tract of grizz, they are probably just as frightened of being
protected by government agencies.  The problem with this viewpoint is (like it
or not), government agencies can be held liable (both legally and politically)
when taxpayers are used as bear food.  Also, few people holding this viewpoint
go into the wilderness without a load of industrialized-world byproducts
(commonly known as 'gear') which (arguably) diminish the experience of being in
wilderness, and they also probably willingly use roads and trails (intrusions
into the wilderness) to access same.

Thoughtful people will conclude that there is no reasonable way to resolve
this, so we'll let our government decide.  Similar questions abound in our
society:  think about seat belts, air bags, helmets (for bicycling,
motorcycling, climbing), speed limits, illegal drugs, legal drugs,
search and rescue operations in remote areas conducted at taxpayer expense,
and consumer protection.

It seems to me that the big question on the American scene today is "what is
the difference between having a government and having a mom?"
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: [l/m 5/20/91] Rachel Carson's Words: Distilled Wisdom (10/28)	XYZ
Followup-To: poster
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 11:20:10 GMT
Reply-To: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)

Panel 10

Rachel Carson was perhaps the most influential environmentalist
to have lived in the modern era.  She wrote simply and clearly, and when
her ideas came under attack, she was ultimately vindicated.  If you want
to learn about the backcountry environment, you will find no
finer set of books.  They rank with Darwin's Origin of Species
by Means of Natural Selection.  She died in 1963 of breast cancer.

"We still think in terms of conquest.  We still haven't become mature enough
to think of ourselves as only a tiny part of a vast and incredible universe.
Man's attitude toward nature is today critically important simply because
we have now acquired a fateful power to alter and destroy nature.  But
man is a part of nature and his war against nature is inevitablly a war
against himself.  The rains have become an instrument to bring down
from the atmosphere the deadly products of atomic explosions.  Water,
which is probably our most important natural resource, is now used and
reused with incredible recklessness.  Now, I truly believe that we in this
generation must come to terms with nature, and I think we're challenged
as mankind has never been challenged before to prove our maturity
And our mastery, not of nature, but of ourselves."
		--Rachel Carson
			"The Silent Spring of Rachel Carson"
			Copyright \(co 1963 CBS Reports,
			Columbia Broadcasting System, Inc.

*After publication of Silent Spring, certain spokesmen for the
pesticide industry claimed that Rachel Carson was not a trained biologist.
For them should be reserved a special corner in the Library of Hell,
equipped with a barnacle-covered bench and a whale-oil lamp, by which
whose light they would be compelled to read out loud her masters thesis:
"The Development of the Pronephros During the Embryonic and Early
Larval of the Catfish (Inctalurus Punctatus)."
		--Paul Brooks
		"The House of Life: Rachel Carson at Work," 1972,1989
		Her editor

TABLE OF CONTENTS of this chain:

10/ Words from Rachel Carson			<* THIS PANEL *>
11/ Snake bite
12/ Netiquette
13/ Questions on conditions and travel
14/ Dedication to Aldo Leopold
15/ Leopold's lot.
16/ Morbid backcountry/memorial
17/ Information about bears
18/ Poison ivy, frequently ask, under question
19/ Lyme disease, frequently ask, under question
20/ "Telling questions" backcountry Turing test (under construction)
21/ AMS
22/ Words from Foreman and Hayduke
23/ A bit of song (like camp songs)
24/ What is natural?
25/ A romantic notion of high-tech employment
26/ Other news groups of related interest, networking
27/ Films/cinema references
28/ References (written)
1/ DISCLAIMER
2/ Ethics
3/ Learning I
4/ learning II (lists, "Ten Essentials," Chouinard comments)
5/ Summary of past topics
6/ Non-wisdom: fire-arms topic circular discussion
7/ Phone / address lists
8/ Fletcher's Law of Inverse Appreciation and advice
9/ Water Filter wisdom
From: crwg2707@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (R. Wagner)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: old TNF vs. REI ventana
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:09:34 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Thanks to all who replied to my quest for info on replacing my TNF anorak with
an REI Ventana.  As a summary, about 80% of the responses said show the 
anorak to TNF and see if they'll fix or replace it (most said they probably
would).  The rest were testimonials as to the owners happiness with their
Ventana gear.  For the most part, they said they were very good at keeping
warm and repelling water and comfortable to wear.  The only down was that
a biker said that the arms aren't long enough for a good biking position.
Thanks again.


Ride on, 
Raydude.

"Ray, a man unburdened by the rigors of coherent thought." 
          -a Brannonism quoted by George Heinz
From: dsew@troi.cc.rochester.edu (David Sewell)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: New boots and heel pain
Date: 10 Oct 92 17:43:39 GMT
Organization: wandering scholars & goliards

I've lately been dealing with plantar fasciitis (inflammation
of the fibrous band on the bottom of the foot) that was first
provoked by a long, steep, rocky hike in a new pair of Vasque
Clarion II's that turned out to be defective.  (I didn't see it
myself, but the podiatrist who treated me had me bring them in &
at once pointed out that one boot was canted over the sole pretty
badly.)

Local mountain sports place took the Vasques back for full credit
& they spent a lot of time fitting me for replacements; I went with
a pair of Raichle Helveticas for their superior construction & full rand
around the sole.  I've just brought them home & am so far only
wearing them around the house to begin break-in.  And now I'm getting
paranoid: the boots seem to be provoking some soreness at the back
of the heel, where the tendon joins the heel, and possibly on
both feet.

So now I'm wondering: auggh, am I ever going to be able to hike again?
When the paranoia moderates, it occurs to me that this is a stiffer
pair of boots than I've bought for a while & maybe some discomfort
there is to be expected until they're broken in a bit.  Any thoughts
on this, or similar experiences?  I don't mind breaking the boots in
slowly, but I don't want to go out for another 20-mile day and
return reinjured.

-- 
David Sewell, English Dept, U of Rochester   |  "Grammarians without any
  dsew@troi.cc.rochester.edu                 |  character at all lecture
  dsewell@violet.ccit.arizona.edu            |  us upon that of Homer."
  (On leave in Tucson, Arizona, '92-'93)     |     --Diogenes the Cynic
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: heycke@sumex-aim.stanford.edu (Torsten Heycke)
Subject: Re: Backcountry in the Movies
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Organization: Knowledge Systems Lab
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 21:00:03 GMT

In article <15007@auspex-gw.auspex.com>, johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
wrote:

> This brings up an interesting possible thread.  That is, a discussion of
> movies which were not actually about the backcountry but featured some good
> shots of the backcountry,  while being good movies in their own right. 

Hmm, I can think of some examples at the end of the spectrum.

Once I was hiking with my wife up to Sierra Buttes, a wonderfully peak that
looms several thousand feet (well, it looks that way...) in sheer vertical
above a couple of lakes in the California "gold country." Anyway, we had
hiked for some time and not seen anyone and we remarked on how nice it was
to be able to hike in a beautiful area and not encounter a single person.
Then we saw a large Gatorade container next to the trail. On it was
stenciled: "Props Don't Move"

A mile later, we came around a bend near the top of the mountain and saw:


a huge table, 60 people eating, cars, vans, trucks etc. We were on location
of the filming of a major motion picture. We had to walk right through the
collection of people; my wife bumped somebody by accident. Someone told us
we had just bumped into Kevin Bacon. Neither of us new who he was. 

Anyway, we watched some of the shooting, laughed at the fake granite
boulders they used, were amused how long it took to film a segment that
would probably end up as 5 or 10 seconds on the real film, and then asked
what the name of the film would be. It was something like "Summer
Adventure." A couple of years later, we saw the video. Worst movie I've
ever seen.

Sort of related: the following week we were down in the San Fransisco area
and decided to go hiking on Angel Island. We took the first ferry over in
the morning. It was very foggy and midweek in the fall, so there weren't
very many people on the ferry. There were even fewer hiking and fewer still
hiking to the top of the island. We were the only ones, or so we thought.

Just before the top, we started to hear music. As we arrived, we saw:

Half a dozen new cars, vans, trucks and other vehicles and about 20
red-faced people. They were trying to film a Chevy commercial (national
distribution), and had been there for 3 days, but it had been too foggy to
film. Enough sun was getting through, however, that everyone there had
sustained very nasty sun burns.

Torsten
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry