HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: primeaux@wham-o.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Murder: for or against?
Date: 31 Aug 92 23:03:27 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - Department of Computer Science
Distribution: na
Reply-To: primeaux@wham-o.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux)
NNTP-Posting-Host: wham-o.cs.utk.edu

In article <la57vkINNn04@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu>, primeaux@wham-o.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux) writes:
|> In article <4840@daily-planet.concordia.ca>, mjassels@cs.concordia.ca (Michael Assels) writes:
|> |> I can't believe what I'm reading here, day after day.  A man murders three
|> |> people (unrelated to his troubles, if that matters) and he develops a fan 
|> |> club in sci.research.careers!  Hello?  Is anybody out there?
|> |> 
|> |> Followups to alt.bizarre
|> |> 
|> |> +-------------------------------+----------------------------------+
|> |> | Michael Assels, Analyst       | Everything is what it is and not |
|> |> | Comp. Sci., Concordia Univ.   | another thing.                   |
|> |> | 1455 de Maisonneuve O         |    - Aristotle (or someone else) |
|> |> | Montreal, Quebec, H3G 1M8     +----------------------------------+
|> |> | Voice: (514) 848-3030         |     mjassels@cs.concordia.ca     |
|> |> +-------------------------------+----------------------------------+
|> 
|> None of the articles *I* have read give any indication that the
|> author supports Fabricant's (alleged) murders.  On the other hand,
|> several people have written that *despite* his actions, the claims
|> of academic dishonesty should be investigated.  I personally agree 
|> with this position.  As another poster implied (I have lost the
|> name):  to do otherwise is to embrace an argumentum ad hominum
|> (abusive) -- and this is a logical fallacy.  The veracity of his 
|> claims is a question independent of his subsequent actions, regardless
|> how vile or attractive those actions might be.
|> 
|> -- David
|> primeaux@cs.utk.edu
|> 

Sorry about the followup(s) to my own post, but in the interest of 
maintaining the integrity of sources, the person who first mentioned
the argumentum ad hominum was Steve Chapin (spelling from memory --
I accidently deleted his message to me).

primeaux@cs.utk.edu
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Shootings
Date: 29 Aug 92 23:53:30 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <1992Aug27.151030.10988@athena.mit.edu> nico@athena.mit.edu (Nicolas Reinecke) writes:
>
>	A computer sleuth may be called in to help solve Monday's triple-
>murder at Montreal's Concordia University. John Jessen runs a Seattle
>firm called ``Electronics Evidence Discovery''.
>	The firm specializes in finding computer files in out-of-the-way
>places. Jessen told a Victoria radio station he's been contacted by a
>Montreal reporter about a certain aspect of the case. 
>	The suspect in the case, Valery Fabrikant, is said to have sent
>lengthy computer messages over the university's computer system. Jessen
>says early memos may provide a clue to the case.
>	Jessen says some messages may have been taken out of the memory bank
>of Fabrikant's computer, but may have been transferred elsewhere. Jessen
>says he knows how to find them. (23)

When I read this newsgroup and see what the local newspapers or TV stations
are transmitting, I feel like being a space alien and participating in a
debate about something the Earthians are just not aware of.

As an Internet reader, I saw the messages of Fabrikant (the 1st one 3 hours
_before_ the event).  I was even in the street wher a lot of police cars
went on their road to Concordia and when someone talked about a shouting
at Concordia, I immediately thought to Fabrikant.  As a former (and
graduated) student, after listening opinion of colleagues and reading
on internet, I understand clearly there is something not fair in what
happened to Fabrikant before he did any thing.

And then I read the local newspaper.  This saturday, an interview with
Thiagas Shanker in La Presse (a Montreal newspaper in French).
title : Fabrikant faisait chanter tout le monde (Fabrikant used menaces
with everybody).

..Fabrikant had a plan for any thing.  All was computed.  When he did not
get what he wanted, he first made pressure and insulted people.  He then
used menace (chantage?) against every body...

In the story of an accompanying picture, ...killed monday ... by the
presumed killer...  Obviously, Fabrikant has no support from media!

This article shown the official school position.  The school
will never try to show an objective picture.

While I give no reason to Fabrikant, I think the local media should
be more objective, even if what they may find will not exactly reflect
the official story.  At this time (while I am not a big TV viewer nor
a regular newspaper reader), I feel no journalist ever read this 
newsgroup, only what the university decided to give away.


-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Un Quebec renouvele dans une Amerique renovee
\_.-===                                                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: william@bcarh472.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (William Moss)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Concordia shootings
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:37:53 GMT
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Ottawa, Ontario Canada

In article <BtpLH3.3xx@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:

|> with the Polytechnique event.  The only relation is the site (2 universities
|> in Montreal city).
That's 4 - Universite' de Montreal, UQAM (Universite' du Quebec a` Montreal),
           Concordia, and McGill. 

-- 
===========================================================================
William G. Moss                      disclaimer: not the views of BNR or NT
Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa  +1 613 763 8108 WILLIAM@BNR.CA  
===========================================================================
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: sri@ctrvx2.vanderbilt.edu (R. Sritharan)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant's CV
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Vanderbilt University
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 19:01:00 GMT

In article <16451@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, JRBANGA@poppy.ucdavis.edu (JULIO RODRIGUEZ BANGA) writes...
> 
> *** For those who think Fabrikant's CV is too good to be true:
> 
> I've used the Melvyl system of the Univ. of California to look for the books
>and articles of Dr. Fabrikant in the period 7/89-7/92. As it can be seen below,
>the list is pretty impressive. The articles search is done using the Current
>Contents database, so maybe there are more articles in other publications that
>are not listed by CC. 
> 
> If there are still skeptics, others could complete the search for the period
>70-89 or whatever (by the way, how old is he?). 
> 
> I think I read somewhere that he is considered to be in the top ten of mech.
>eng. Is this an exaggeration or not? 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
>      Julio.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
>  >>>>>>>>> BOOKS:
> 
>1. Fabrikant, V. I.
>     Applications of potential theory in mechanics : a selection of new results
>   / by V.I. Fabrikant.  Dordrecht ; Boston : Kluwer Academic Publishers,
>   c1989.
>     Series title:  Mathematics and its applications (Kluwer Academic
>   Publishers)
> 
[ rest of the list deleted ]
> 
> 
> Remember, this is only from the period 7/89-7/92.
> 
The day the shooting was reported I looked up the book mentioned
above. In the list of references it has 40 single authored papers
by Fabrikant.

-- sri
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: shuang@cs.UAlberta.CA (Shuang Deng)
Subject: Re: Concordia shootings
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 04:56:50 GMT

rob@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Robert Robson) writes:
>...Rather than just writing him off as "another nut" the academic
>community should take the opportunity to examine its practices...


A vice-vector of Concordia was quoted by Globe and Mail, in its
report on the Concordia shooting, as saying:
     " We have a lot of creative people here who are outside the normal."


It would be interersting to know 
how officials at Concordia define "normal",
how they deal with those who they consider as being "outside the normal",
and how these outside-the-normal people feel.


-Shuang Deng (shuang@cs.ualberta.ca)
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Concordia shootings
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:43:51 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

>In article <1992Aug26.035456.25427@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> rob@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Robert Robson) writes:
>>The media has compared this case to the last shooting in Montreal
>>of the women at Ecole Polytechnique.  This bothers me, since this
>>was a (temporarily?) insane disgruntled employee rather than just
>>someone with a desire to kill women.  I think comparisons with
>>other disgruntled employees who have gone gunning for
>>bosses/co-workers would be more apt.  All of us would like to
>>know the true story and this would be a great opportunity for
>>some investigative journalism.

The media will mostly reproduce stuff released by Concordia instead
of having the journalists do some in depth research to understand
the high and low of university and general scientific research.
Perhaps, university will probably not disclose this trend, but only
the fact that some email was sent on the net.  Media seems to limit
themself to the spectacular (despite a popular Quebec TV series last
spring, Scoop, was about the journalism, including ethic and some
people doing their best to have the truth be disclosed).  

The fact most journalists missed to do their job explains the comparison
with the Polytechnique event.  The only relation is the site (2 universities
in Montreal city).  Actually, it is like the police, who made a bad job
in Polytechnique, is trying to convince public that they can now improve
their job.  This is far from the complete story (i.e. why this happened).

Also, this trend is almost missing in some more (?) relevant groups
like mtl.general, can.general (I never saw a qc.general) or
soc.culture.canada (although I understand this is not culture).
There were some postings, but much less than in sci.research.careers.

For those curious, Quebec being mostly French in an English continent,
with Polytechnique French-speaking and Concordia English-speaking,
Montreal more or less bilingual, etc., the situation may not be the best
for a in-depth study of the case.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Un Quebec renouvele dans une Amerique renovee
\_.-===                                                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: sjc@cs.purdue.EDU (Steve Chapin)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
Date: 29 Aug 92 17:12:22 GMT
	<disaacs.714839851@cunews> <1992Aug26.150049.13307@relay.nswc.navy.mil>
	<4822@daily-planet.concordia.ca>
Distribution: na
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University

}} In article <4822@daily-planet.concordia.ca> mjassels@cs.concordia.ca (Michael Assels) writes:
}} 
}} When Fabrikant was a disgruntled academic, I thought his claims should be
}} examined.  Now that he's a murderer, I think his claims should be tossed
}} immediately into the nearest garbage can (if it's large enough for the
}} entire dossier).  If there are problems in academia, let them be brought
}} up fresh by someone else at some other time, after Fabrikant's personal
}} grievances have faded into richly deserved obscurity.  Let's not allow
}} the social agenda to be determined by violent savages.

Bull cookies.  This is the worst sort of ad hominem argument.  There
was clearly something going on inside the ME department at Concordia.
Saying that because Fabrikant later acted in an irrational manner, his
earlier actions and statements must be irrational and false is tripe.

If the village idiot tells you that the sun rises in the east and sets
in the west, would you not believe him simply because he is the
village idiot?  The fact that Fabrikant has a long-standing history of
crank legal actions makes me doubt that the story is true, as he tells
it, yet his research and teaching record is such that there must be
more to the story than the Concordia administration wants to admit.

sjc@cs.purdue.edu               Steve Chapin           Today's Grammar Lesson:
                    ect. is meaningless; etc. == et cetera

             "Home is the place where, when you have to go there,
                          They have to take you in."
               			-- Robert Frost, "The Death of the Hired Man"
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: uk09365@nx03.mik.uky.edu (robert i kesten)
Subject: Re: Second Undergraduate Degree, or transitional master's
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:49:08 GMT

Allow me to suggest an additional rationale for obtaining
a second baccalaureate degree.  I'd appreciate comments on
this.

This relates directly to my own situation. My academic 
performance when I started college, as an 18 year old
freshman, ranged from near-average to abysmal.  I finally
left school and went to work in retail management and then
for a computer dealer.  I slipped into a smaller, regional
university as a non-degree student on a part-time basis
and started to do fairly well.  I finally decided to return
here (UK, Lexington) and finish my degree.  I managed to
gain readmission and I finally declared a major.  I
just finished my BA with a major in political science.
My work in the last few terms was either all "A's" or
at least nothing lower than a "B."  However, due to the
prior poor performance I only brought my GPA up to a "C"
average.

Now that I am dedicated to doing competent academic work,
and making 3.0 - 4.0 every semester I am motivated to
pursue graduate school or law school.  However, no
(respectable) program will accept me at present.  I am
therefore pursuing a second BA in order to both raise
my GPA and demonstrate my competence to successfully
pursue advanced academic work.

Robert K.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers

As with all hot topics of the moment (remember cold fusion?), this one,
too, will fade away in due time.  Just remember the location of your
kill key, and think of the "non-Fabrikant related messages" as diamonds
in a bed of coal.  Or, take a vacation from this notes group for a month
or so.

alex

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Two die, three hurt in university rampage - Montreal Gazette
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 18:21:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.172229.22707@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov>
jonke@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Stephen Jonke) writes:
>Has anything like this ever happened before?

The Net has had the occasional suicide note posted to it over the decades.
Various companies get similar things internally, but don't talk about this:
IBM, ESL, etc.
It will be interesting to see what role email plays in his trial.
One would hope the severely wounded would survive and not die.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: primeaux@wham-o.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Two die, three hurt in university rampage - Montreal Gazette
Date: 28 Aug 92 12:00:39 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - Department of Computer Science
Distribution: world
Reply-To: primeaux@wham-o.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux)
NNTP-Posting-Host: wham-o.cs.utk.edu

In article <1992Aug27.154822.24448@bwdls61.bnr.ca>, clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug26.010329.25424@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
|> >My initial reaction to Fabrikant's articles was "why doesn't he just
|> >quit and find a position somewhere else?", but after reading some of
|> >the comments regarding the problems of foreign nationals in this
|> >country, I realized that this might have been easier said than done.
|> 
|> Fabrikant had been here for 14 years (most likely having at least
|> landed-immigrant or even citizenship status) and wasn't a student, so
|> I don't think that the "problems" mentioned apply - ie: failure to get
|> a grant wouldn't have forced him to leave the country.
|> 
|> Also, if you look at the conversation transcripts that Fabrikant included,
|> it's hard to see that his peers or superiors *were* pressuring him
|> in such a way.  One of the professors was the brunt of most of
|> the "theft" charges.  The transcript clearly shows that that
|> professor never requested, let alone demanded, that Fabrikant include
|> his name on Fabrikant's work.  So how could a charge of "theft" be
|> viable if Fabrikant, on his own initiative, *gave* it away?

It seemed to me that his point was that including the other professor's
name on Fabricant's papers was the "understood" way of "doing business"
(not his words).  If so then he could have felt what the French might call 
a "moral" obligation, even without explicit coercion or even mention.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: Two die, three hurt in university rampage - Montreal Gazette
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 01:03:29 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.235253.15424@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> manuel@space.ualberta.ca  (John Manuel) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.164417@IASTATE.EDU> btd@IASTATE.EDU (Benjamin T Dehner)  
>writes:
>> I think there is enough facts here
>> to give Fabrikant the benefit of the doubt, instead of dismissing him as a 
>> madman with a gun.
>
>I'd say that what he did with his gun clearly makes him some sort of madman:  
>what kind of "doubt" could possible justify his actions?

As the saying goes, even paranoids have enemies.

His actions clearly indicate that he went over the edge, but that
doesn't necessarily mean his accusations were false.  (Not that that
would "justify" his actions, but it might explain them...)

My initial reaction to Fabrikant's articles was "why doesn't he just
quit and find a position somewhere else?", but after reading some of
the comments regarding the problems of foreign nationals in this
country, I realized that this might have been easier said than done.
If so, this unresolvable conflict could have been what drove him over
the edge.  If the posted documents are legitimate, then the evidence
would seem to point this way.  On the other hand, we're only seeing
one side of the story here...
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Fabrikant did not post to sci.research.careers
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:21:31 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <lharris.16@upei.ca> lharris@upei.ca (Lora Harris) writes:

>	Just two points, Brad -
>1) Doesn't the USA have laws against libel, and laws against the invasion of 
>privacy involved in publishing confidential information?  For instance, if a 
>US doctor were to publish a list of names of those who had been treated by 
>him for venereal diseases, wouldn't he get sued?

Libel involves printing untrue damaging statements.  The keywords
here are untrue and damaging.  Proving the untrue might be difficult.
I don't think there is any law about publishing true but confidential
information.  The doctor would be sued under another law specifically
applying to medical information.  

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:752 alt.grad-student.tenured:35
From: peterson@CS.ColoState.EDU (james peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,alt.grad-student.tenured
Subject: Re: Second Undergraduate Degree, or transitional master's
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:50:11 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Aug26.194853.14764@Princeton.EDU> lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer) writes:
>[stuff deleted]
>But most institutions will respect the seriousness involved in
>learning the approaches of two disciplines thoroughly.  Several
>institions, most notably University of California, Berkeley,
>have second Bachelor's degree programs.  (University of Colorado
>is another). 

This makes it sound as though a second bachelor's program is something
formal and only available at a few places.  I am unaware of any university
that does *not* offer a second bachelors.

There are two ways of
earning a second bachelor's degree: simultaneously with the first
degree, or after the first degree is earned.  In either case, the 
requirements for a second degree usually consist simply in fulfilling
whatever requirements are not covered by work completed for the first degree.

james sends


-- 
james lee peterson				peterson@CS.ColoState.edu
dept. of computer science                       
colorado state university		"Some ignorance is invincible."
ft. collins, colorado  (voice:303/491-7137; fax:303/491-6639)
From: jms@vision.sarnoff.com (Jerry Shapiro x2420)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Please distribute Fabrikant subject into appropriate news groups
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:05:09 GMT
Reply-To: jms@vision.sarnoff.com
Organization: David Sarnoff Research Center

In article 20641@nas.nasa.gov, eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>While the Fabrikant subject is an interesting one, this group has been set
>up for "the discussion of careers in scientific resarch."
>
>STOP!
>Take a moment, edit your Subject-lines, your Newsgroups: fields, and Follow-up
>lines.
>
>If you want to ask for expertise about Fabrikant's sanity, please ask in
>sci.psychology.
>Cross post the Newsgroups: to sci.psychology,sci.research.careers (no space
>after comma), and Followup-To: sci.psychology (without the research.careers
>since that is not necessary a career question).
>
>Why don't we take the events of the case to soc.culture.canada?
>The legal questions can be taken to misc.legal.  Those specific issues
>dealing Fabrikant and his CAREER belong in this group.  This way the readers
>of this group don't need to concern themselves with murder events, and
>can concentrate on career issues.  We create different groups for a purpose,
>and "experts" congregate in those groups and you can typically get far
>better discussion in those specialties.
>
>Academic?  Make sense?  Got that?  Great.
>
>--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
>  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
>  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
>Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
>A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya

I disagree. I don't read soc.canada.culture. IMHO this tragic story is
of interest to *this* group. It started here, it should stay here.

Jerry Shapiro
My views only