From: jay@oclc.org (Young Jeff)
Subject: Re: That garden of eden "thang"
Organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 19:14:16 GMT

brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615) writes:
: 
:  Jeff Young writes:
: 
:    It seems that you are saying that the Fall was inevitable.
:    What is the difference between punishing a puppy for eternity
:    for messing on the carpet and punishing humanity for eternity
:    for succumbing to something equally inevitable?  Is eternal
:    torment reasonable punishment for performing the inevitable?
: 
:    An incorrect assumption was made.  Performing the inevitable
: does NOT lead to eternal torment.  

If you look again, I did not make the assumption you accuse me of.
I did not say everyone went to hell as a result of Orig.Sin.  Orig.
Sin makes hell the default destination.  According to Christian
doctrine, hell can only be avoided by creduously accepting certain
unreasonable (for me) assertions on faith.  Do you deny that hell 
is the punishment for original sin as I stated?  Even if you don't 
believe in O.S., my point still stands because hell is just as 
inevitable since it is impossible for us to avoid sinning.

:  You and I still have the choice
: to eat the bread of Life, that is, to follow Jesus--John 6:35,
: 10:28, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31, Acts 3:15 . . .)  or not.  If your
: name is not found in the book of life, Rev. 20:11-15, then,
: and only then, are you thrown into the lake of fire where there's
: "eternal torment" (Rev. 20:10).  
:
:    As for punishment, 1) we have to do something wrong to be
: punished.  We do have responsibility to do right and to make
: right choices. 

Has any human being (besides Jesus) ever accomplished this requirement
in total?

: and 2) the problems humanity has on earth is for 
: the most part due to humanity.  We reap what we sow. 

Do "Acts of God" (natural disasters) fall into this category
as some Christians claim?  If not, what is the source of this
misery?

:  And 3), 
: when God punishes, he does so out of discipline because God 
: "disciplines those he loves."  God wants us to get it right.

Parents punish their children to prevent them from future harm.
What purpose does eternal punishment without repreive perform?
Is it strictly as a deterrent?  Why would God follow though with
this threat if such punishment is hidden from us?  Why not just
threaten it for the benfit of the living, give us a few thousand 
lashes for our misdeeds when we die, and give us a consolation 
prize proportional to our merit?  No one would be the wiser.
Is it 'just' for Gandhi to share the pit with Hitler?

: But we are stubborn, hard headed and think we know it all. We,
: like little kids, like to put our fingers in light sockets,
: like to have permiscious sexual affairs despite its Russian 
: roulette side-effects, and we like to make up all sorts of
: things about God in order to deny the truth, and thus wind
: up in hell.  These are our choices.  So, make a good one.

Why doesn't God provide *reasonable* evidence of this "truth" 
considering the dire consequences of its rejection?

:    Also, as an aside, God would not punish a puppy for pissing
: on the carpet (1 Brian 7:7).

I'm glad to hear it.  Too bad he can't be as humaine towards 
us misguided humans.
-- 
Jeff Young

Opinions expressed are mine alone.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc