HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Militant Foreign Nationalisms
Date: 14 Dec 1992 13:38:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Wayne McGuire writes...


#To: Mark Ira Kaufman
#
# MIK> Why don't you consider American Jews to be American?
#
#Do you even begin to understand how grave are your problems in
#reading comprehension and general cognition?
#
#This is one of those questions which contains its own evident
#answer. Of course you don't. There is a nice correlation between
#your exclamation points, uppercased shouts, and verbal filth and
#your inability to read English.
#
#My point was that any militant nationalist whose is not living in
#the nation of his obsession, and whose passions are leading him
#into relentless ugly conflict with his fellow citizens, and who
#doesn't have the guts to act on his convictions by fighting for
#his beliefs in the homeland of his heart, cuts an entirely
#ridiculous figure.
#
#This is especially true for militant Zionists, since a cardinal
#principle of Zionism is that all Jews in the world should move to
#Israel. Militant Zionists living comfortably in America,
#browbeating fellow Americans with verbal violence and endless
#demands for handouts instead of putting their bodies on the line
#in Israel, do not inspire respect among most Americans. Israelis
#especially find these loudmouths to be contemptible.
#
#I can foresee Americans eventually leaning more to the Arab than
#the Israeli cause simply because Arab nationalists in America
#have made less of a nuisance of themselves than Jewish
#nationalists. Americans hate being pressured and browbeaten by
#anyone. All the powerful political instruments that the Israeli
#lobby has built up to push American policy this way and that
#could well in the long run backfire and blow up in the faces of
#the lobbyists.


    You did not answer the question.
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: No Subject Line
Date: 18 Dec 92 02:53:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500311:000:2600
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Dec 17 18:53:00 1992


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>



F O R      I M M E D I A T E     R E L E A S E
=====================================

We urge the international human rights community to endorse,
support and disseminate the following call (with any necessary
corrections or amendments). Its aim is to enforce the respect for
humanitarian law and deter further commissions of war crimes by
the Israeli government.  We would be thankful to obtain copies of
any statements or letters of endorsement. The following call
should be sent to all U.N. missions , the media and to members of
parliament (in the U.S. to members of Congress).

BEGIN OF TEXT:

A Call for the Prosecution of Yitzhak Rabin for War Crimes and
Crimes against Humanity

We undersigned are hereby calling on High Contracting Parties of
the Geneva Conventions to initiate measures - in accordance with
their legal obligations - leading to the prosecution of Yitzhak
Rabin, Prime Minister of the State of Israel, for acts committed
under his command and documented in the attached memorandum. These
acts constitute War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, as defined
in the Nurnberg Charter and <grave breaches> as defined in the
Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocols of 1977.
These crimes were committed in 1948, 1967 and between 1987 and
1992. The last of these crimes was committed today when Yitzhak
Rabin, with his governmentUs endorsement, signed orders for the
illegal deportations of more than 400 protected civilians from
their homeland.

High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions and to the
Additional Protocols are under the legal obligation to prosecute
individuals who have ordered the commission of <grave breaches>,
as defined in the Conventions and Additional Protocols. They are
furthermore expected to <act, jointly or individually, in co-
operation with the United Nations and in conformity with the
United Nations Charter> in <situations of serious violations>,
such as have been committed under orders of Yitzhak Rabin.

We wish to emphasize that respect for established authority and
the maintainance of world peace depends to a high degree upon the
perception by the peoples of the world that High Contracting
Parties are acting in an effective and impartial manner to ensure
the respect of international humanitarian law and the repression
of war crimes.

END OF TEXT

The memorandum mentioned above can be found in
- PeaceNet conference: mideast.levant and may be edited as
needed.

Center for Policy Research Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, Iceland
Tel./Fax: (354)-1-26444

17. December 1992
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WAYNE McGUIRE'S ANTI-SEMITISM.
Date: 16 Dec 1992 13:30:14 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   In a recent post, Wayne McGuire fixated on a man who he claims
was a racist.  While it is evident that Wayne McGuire know little
or nothing about the man whose reputation he assailed, his skewed
vision of this man is not the main reason that this post is, IMO,
another example of Wayne McGuire's anti-semitism.  He labeled his
post "Jewish racism."
   If someone was writting about Father Coughlin or Pat Buchanan,
and chose to call his post "Catholic racism,"  it would likely be
taken as an insult by Catholics.  Catholics would see this as the
anti-Catholic slur that it is, and be rightly offended.
   If I wrote about Wayne McGuire's rabid anti-semitism here, and
called this post "Catholic racism" all of the normal, non-McGuire
Cartholics would be properly insulted.  First, they would rightly
point out that I am slurring a whole religion by the attitudes of
just one slimy bigot.  And secondly, they would resent being tied
to the likes of Wayne McGuire himself!
  So tell us Wayne.  Should I write about Pat Buchanan, and title
it "Catholic racism?"  Should I write about YOU and call the post
"Catholic racism?"
  I don't expect you to grasp the point here.  And I do not care.
There are people with brains in this group.  And they see what an
anti-semite you are.  As long as you continue to post your trash,
intelligent people will set the record straight.  Your bigotry is
no natch for the intelligence and truth that will always be there
to fight your ignorance.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: : Homosexuality in Islam
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 22:50:55 GMT

In article <nabeel.724444611@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo) writes:
>In <1992Dec14.123633@frej.teknikum.uu.se> flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

>" I can see it now.. You die. You come to the gates of Heaven, only to find out
>" that God is a Big Black Lesbian, with an attitude.. :-)
>
>    Probably your god whatever it is may look this way or that, do not make a
>a generalisation to other people's gods.

That is precisely what people have been saying all along.  If Muslims
want to do something their way, they shouldn't push these values on
non-believers, especially not onto non-Muslims.  But they do, anyways.
As a matter of religious principle, yet!

>" Yes! Help all weak and old people on their way! It's a crime to be ugly!
>" Outlaw beards! Decapitate anyone with pimples! Jihad! AIIIIGH!
>
>   If you keep this closed minded bigoted attitude you won't be able to 
>appreciate what religions are all about, probably Judaism thinks that the ugly
>and some kinds of people are unclean.  We do not. 

Judaism does no such thing.  Perhaps you should read the Hadith on
what Islam says about Jews, though.

>   Jihad is self defense 

Yeah, like all of PLO terrorism against athletes and tourists is
really self-defense.  Self-delusionary is more like it.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:35:26 GMT

jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:

>In article <1992Dec10.174035.28319@dazixco.ingr.com> naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com writes:
>>
>>In article <1568@tdat.teradata.COM>, jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:
>>>What "riot"?  The "police riot"?  The Muslims gathered to counter-protest
>>>were deliberately or accidently tear-gassed and responded by driving the
>>>militia from the plaza but not before one of there number was shot dead.
>>>The crowd then stayed in the plaza until it was stormed by the militia using
>>>automatic fire which killed the rest of the victims.
>>
>>I suppose that only due to your short memory you didn't state that those inocent
>>people stormed the Jews that were praying there with a rain of stones.

>Why would I state something that is not true?

>The congregation at the Wall left when they heard the outbreak of gunfire.
>What ever the intentions of those throwing stones (they could not see where
>they landed), they were not posing a threat to anyone. 

Come On!  I very well seeing footage on ABC (not exactly a pro-Israel tool)
of stones raining down on the Western Wall Plaza and worshippers running
amidst the rain of rocks. And what is this crap about the Arabs not seeing
where the stones landed?  Where did they think they were going to land.  They
knew very well that the plaza was packed with worshipers.  Get real.

>Jon.
>-

Ed.
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: LC
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:03:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.215321.7585@dazixco.ingr.com> naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com writes:
>
>No one will prevent school kids from going to school as lonk as they are doing
>so. The problem is that those kids end up on the streets throwing rocks at
>Israelis.

And what is the israeli soldier doing in the land of the school kids to 
start with?  Occupying, right?  What is the reaction to 
occupation and rape?  LOVE? 

You make it sound like the kids asked the so-called israelis to come 
from Europe, Yemen, etc... to occupy their land (the kids') in order
for them to enjoy rock throwing.

Do you think those people are throwing rocks out of joy?  Especially,
since they know they could get shot and killed right before the
rock lands.  IT IS FREEDOM FROM AN OPRESSOR- GOT IT?

jle


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Shamir says ( Re: Opposites and yet so alike
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:13:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.010144.6869@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
>
>	I'm not justifying the mass killing of either group, but the two
>	examples you have picked are somewhat different.  The Hamas posting
>	is an example of a creed to live by.  The Jewish youths' chant was
>	an angry reaction to a murder, which will probably subside.
>
>	Geoff
Maybe you did not hear about the recent Shamir quote:

	``We are familiar with the Arabs for many centuries, from the closest
of contacts. We know that these people have no respect for human life,''
Shamir said.
	``They really like it, they desire it, they enjoy each murder.''

He was your prime minister, you know!
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Antisemitism
Date: 12 Dec 92 23:25:11 GMT

<Bz5HIy.8rM@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

WM> If Israel applies various devices to drive
WM> non-Jews out of Israel, how could it possibly complain if other
WM> nations in the world applied various devices to drive Jews from
WM> their midst?

   RE> If a person posts thinly-veiled antisemitic innuendo, how
   RE> could that person possibly complain about racism of
   RE> others?

>Ah yes, the old anti-Semitism smear. Doesn't it embarrass you to
>use it?

	A fair question.  Should one be embarrassed to point
        out antisemitism altogether?  Not in my opinion.
        I have unabashedly done this in the case of David
        Irving, Robert Faurisson, and the bcpu-group on this
	network.  It was easy to see through the standard defense,
        "I'm not antisemitic, I'm antizionist."

	Now, as for the case at hand, a suggestion that Israel has
        a policy to drive out citizens based on their non-Jewishness
	alone strikes me as antisemitic innuendo.  I am not at all
	embarrassed to say so.
        

	
>I don't think anti-Semitism smears are going to be very effective
>in diverting world attention from the fact that Israel and
>Israel's supporters increasingly have an embarrassing problem
>with double standards in judging Israel and judging other
>nations.

	Damn, I was caught in the act of trying to divert world
	attention from the double standards in judging Israel
	and judging other nations in the area such as Iran, Iraq,
	Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan, ...


>The problem becomes even more severe when you have a
>significant number of Israelis claiming that they are the chosen
>people, a nation of priests called upon to define moral standards
>for the rest of the benighted world. 

	I'm already beginning to feel the pressure.
	The benighted world had better do something about these
	Israeli priests before it is too late.


>Nor if Israel increasingly becomes a Jewish theocratic
>state does it have much ground to stand on in objecting to the
>U.S. becoming a Christian theocratic state.


	Is Israel increasingly becoming a Jewish theocratic
	state, or is this more innuendo?
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israeli deportations
Date: 18 Dec 92 08:24:04 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Alan Stein

>By Israel's enlightened values does throwing stones merit
>deportation? Death by summary execution in the streets? Israel is
>"a light unto the nations"? Jimmy Swaggart here we come....

 AS> By Mcguire's "enlightened values" does stabbing women and
 AS> children in the back, murdering policemen, and throwing
 AS> molotov cocktails at school busses merit a commendation?

Are you trying to lead us to believe that each and every one of
the Palestinians which Israel has deported has received a fair
trial and been convicted of the crimes you have mentioned?

That's not really the case, is it, Alan? But I think it is
enlightening to see so many people coming out of the woodwork and
serving as apologists for Israel's policy of deportation. Do you
favor deportation as an instrument of state policy in general, or
only for Israel, I wonder? When Zionists founded Israel did they
ever imagine that in 1992 some American Jews would be put in the
position of defending such policies to their fellow American
citizens? Something has gone wrong with the Zionist experiment.
Israel was not supposed to be this kind of country.

I knew for sure that Israel was embarked on a sharp downward
curve in its relations with the U.S. and the rest of the Western
democratic world when I saw a clip on CNN in which heavily armed
Israeli soldiers, guns at the ready, were frantically chasing two
Palestinian children, a boy and girl who couldn't have been more
than 10 years old. It would almost be comical if it weren't so
horrific.

If this situation goes on much longer, Israel's standing in the
world is going to sink to rock bottom. I think Yitzhak Rabin
understands this, which is why he is attempting to work towards a
peace settlement which will relieve his country of the moral
burden of trying to keep nearly two million people under Israel's
boot. The military occupation is a no-win situation for Israel.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  ethnonarcissism indices
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23610 soc.culture.jewish:23214
From: shaig@think.com (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Israeli Broadcasts in the US
Date: 17 Dec 1992 19:22:03 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: poulenc.think.com


I seem to recall that the IBA (Israeli Broadcasting Authority)
transmitted Israeli news and shows on short and long waves in the
US.  Would anyone happen to have a list of the stations or a schedule
of the transmissions?

	Much obliged,
	Shai
-- 
Shai Guday		| 
OS Software Engineer	| 
Thinking Machines Corp. |
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Wayne McGuire is an anti-semite.
Date: 16 Dec 1992 16:59:30 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


   In a recent post, Wayne McGuire fixated on a man who he claims
was a racist.  While it's evident that Wayne McGuire knows little
or nothing about the man whose reputation he assailed, his skewed
vision of this man is not the main reason that this post is, IMO,
another example of Wayne McGuire's anti-semitism.  He labeled his
post "Jewish racism."
   If someone was writing about Father Coughlin, or Pat Buchanan,
and chose to call his post "Catholic racism,"  it would likely be
taken as an insult by Catholics.  Catholics would see this as the
anti-Catholic slur that it is, and be rightly offended.
   If I wrote about Wayne McGuire's rabid anti-semitism here, and
called this post "Catholic racism," all of the moral, non-McGuire
Catholics would be properly offended.  Firstly they would rightly
point out that I am slurring a whole religion by the attitudes of
just one slimy bigot.  And secondly, they would resent being tied
to the likes of Wayne McGuire himself!
  So tell us Wayne.  Should I write about Pat Buchanan, and title
it "Catholic racism?"  Should I write about YOU and call the post
"Catholic racism?"
   I don't expect you to grasp the point here.  And I don't care.
There are people with brains in this group.  And they see what an
anti-semite you are.  As long as you continue to post your trash,
intelligent people will set the record straight.  Your bigotry is
no match for the intelligence and truth that will always be there
to fight your ignorance.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 21:55:13 GMT

In article <1gjb5qINNhi8@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>Both the PLO and the Irgun changed over time.  During the worst period
>of its history (1936-9) the Irgun was just as bad as the PLO at its
>worst.  

The Irgun did not rain terror on unrelated parties worldwide over a
period of decades, like the PLO has.  The Irgun did not bomb passenger
airplanes in Europe, hijack cruise ships, kill tourists on private
yachts, bomb houses of worship on several continents, murder athletes
at the Olympics, machine-gun tourists and religious pilgrims of any
and all faiths at international airports or any of a variety of "proud
accomplishments" of the PLO.  Your statement that "the Irgun was just
as bad as the PLO at its worst" is simply unsupported by the facts. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 11 Dec 92 21:58:34 GMT
Reply-To: jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Organization: Teradata Corp., El Segundo, CA

In article <4570@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.001819.2413754@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John
>Elghani/10000000) writes:
>
>>>..
>> Israel is an intelligent and peacefull government, and
>>the PLO is just a bunch of scum arabs;
>
>In order that our discution will be more intelectual
>I'll ask the readers to inform the net about their OWN countries.
>
>Please wrote what soldiers of your own army are expected to do
>when they are stoned?
>
>  A mericans. please inform us what an American soldier is expected to
>do if he is stoned at Somally ?

Leave.

>Arabs , please inform what an Arabian soldier is supposed to do in
>case Jewish kuds will stone him after Arabs will cuptured some part of
>Israel ( or Judea oe samaria )?
>
>Gideon ehrlich
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:27:40 GMT
	<23076@venera.isi.edu> <1992Dec18.082009@frej.teknikum.uu.se>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se's message of 18 Dec 92 07:20:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.082009@frej.teknikum.uu.se> flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
>
> In article <23076@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>
> |> Also, it was Mr. Perlman who "raised" me to 2.  I cannot help but notice
> |> that his final inspection of the New Republic revealed that even they
> |> could find only ONE (1).  And that one was from well over a year ago.
> |> Pretty weak evidence for Mr. Perlman's claim itself, wouldn't you agree?
>
> Ok, you need another one? This one i s old, I'll give you that, but here 
> goes. Back in 78/79 when we lived in Syria/Israel (UN) we always used to 
> stop in Jericho, when going from Damascus to Jerusalem.
> In Jericho there lived a falafel man, who had a thriving business right 
> by the road. We bought our falafel, chatted some, and went on.
> ...
> One day when we stopped the shop was closed, and a while later we learned
> that he had been shot in the head one night, presumably for cooperation
> with the Israelis. Like he had any choice but to sell food when people
> antered his shop? Give me a break!
> That incident alone made me wary of PLO as a 'people's' organisation.
> And it made me very reluctant to accept the 'judgement' of these death-
> squads that see to it that the Palestinians keep in line.

Setting aside the fact that even you admit to not really knowing why
this person was killed, the reported incident:

1. Is from a time period other than one now being discussed.
2. Doesn't appear to have anything to do with Mr. Perlman's assertion
   concerning "even slightly non-standard opinions".
3. Doesn't appear to have anything to do with Mr. Perlman's assertion
   concerning "seek[ing] protection from Israeli authorities".
4. Was not known to Mr. Perlman, and so could have nothing to do with
   his assertion that "[He did] know numerous etc."

Look.  I'm not denying that some, even many, of the killings in the
occupied territories are unrelated to true collaboration.  There are
murders everywhere, and people will try to take advantage of any
situation to settle scores and justify their actions.  (On the other
hand, there are also real collaborators in the occupied territories and
the killing of such people is not unlike what goes/went on under other
occupations.)

This is all beside the point now, though.

Mr. Perlman made a very specific claim, asserting even that he "knew"
something.  And now he cannot back that claim up.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast