From: kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Re: Various ramblings...
Organization: I can't see any in the immediate vicinity...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 20:04:22 GMT

Sigh.  Yes, I *am* long-winded it seems.  Sorry about that, but I know of
no other way to express myself in sufficient detail as to avoid confusion.
And breaking it up into smaller posting would just generate that much more
header traffic.  As for the context, I retain this for my benefit as much
as anyone else's.  News expires fast around here, and it's hard to keep
the conversation straight *without* context.

Maybe I should take this to email.  How many of you would be able to deal
with lengthy email messages any better than lengthy netnews postings?

In article <thurlow.713884782@convex.convex.com> thurlow@convex.com (Robert Thurlow) writes:
>In <1992Aug14.231331.4309@menudo.uh.edu> kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown) writes:
>
>>My concern for correctness is so prevalent that you might say it defines
>>who I am.  I believe very strongly that one cannot be happy for very long
>>living a lie, that knowing exactly how the real world works and where you
>>stand with respect to it is mandatory if you're to get anywhere in it.
>
>"Correctness"?  You sound more like you're talking about "precision".
>You're right about living a lie not working, but what that means to
>me is that I will try hard to be honest, not bullshit myself about
>what my strengths and weaknesses are, and be who I am rather than a
>fabrication.  

I feel that this is part of it, but not all of it.  In particular, I
find it necessary to know not only what I can and cannot do, but also
to know how to accomplish things in the real world.  The latter I
cannot do simply with knowledge of my strengths and weaknesses.  I
need more than that.  I need knowledge of how the real world works.

It might sound like I'm talking about "precision", but I really am
talking about correctness (precision is a small part of that),
meaning that your ideas about how the real world work match both
current and future observations.

>If you even think any of us know "exactly" how the real
>world works, you have made a serious mistake.  None of us will ever
>get to exact, and it's no wonder you're hurting if you believe you
>can do that.

Well, no, I *don't* believe that.  But some people apparently know how
the real world works better than others do (whether or not this "knowledge"
is conscious is another thing entirely).

>>It is a lesson that has been pounded into me through many years of hard
>>experience.  When I forget it and try to do something without knowing
>>what I'm doing, the real world invariably teaches me the lesson again,
>>often in painful ways.  Approaching a woman I find attractive without
>>knowing what I'm doing is an excellent way of getting the lesson again.
>
>I think you need to redefine success here.  Success maybe needs to mean,
>"hey, that wasn't so bad; her "no" didn't hurt, maybe because I didn't
>get so worked up before I asked her."  

Well, I always thought "success" was a pretty simple concept, actually.  :-)

You "succeed" when you reach your goal.   You "fail" when you don't.

What I was actually talking about, though, were the nasty consequences of
not knowing what I'm doing.  "Success" and "failure" don't really enter
into it that much.  What matters is how much the consequences of your
actions hurt.  And these consequences are invariably painful when I don't
know what I'm doing.  I don't get lucky.

>If success is The Whole Enchilada,
>you're going to beat the shit out of yourself every time you don't hit
>perfect.  That's going to kill you.  

I know.  That's why I stopped.  Most mistakes don't make much of a
difference, so I don't beat myself up over them.  It's only the ones
that make a huge difference that I even think about beating myself up
over...

>You can reduce pain by reducing
>the number of things that cause you pain, or by reducing the pain of
>each incident, 

I know how to do the former.  I *don't* know how to do the latter,
except through some kind of desensitization process.  I take it that
this is what you're referring to?

>and I really think you need to lean harder on the latter
>approach.  A rejection doesn't mean you'll be alone forever, but I know
>I used to let myself think along those lines.

Exactly.

A rejection means that you'll be alone that much longer, until you get
the next opportunity to fix the problem.  If the amount of time between
these opportunities is low, it's no big deal.  If the amount of time is
high, it *is* a big deal.

>>At least I haven't gotten myself killed yet.
>
>It sounds like you may get there by your own hand if you don't change
>a few directions and ways of thinking.  You worry me, Kevin.

I don't follow.  What about me bothers you?

I got over the temptation to commit suicide long ago.  It won't happen.
I don't even *think* about trying it, *ever*.

But, if you want something that may bother you, try this:

The other day, my mother came home after a minor accident.  There was a
big dent in the side of her car, but it hasn't had an effect on the
driveability of the car.  Needless to say, she was quite shaken up about
it.  She had had a bad day.  Of course, I comforted her about it and all
that.

But the scary thing is this:  I FELT NOTHING.

And that bothers me.

Now, if I can be that removed from things when it comes to asking women
out, maybe I can get someplace...

>Successful people take risks, because they know failure is a good
>teacher, and because they know that they are basically going to be
>able to deal with the failure.  And someday, one of those attempts
>is going to succeed.  But the failure has to not make you think you're
>going to lose forever.

Yes!  Precisely!

Now, ask yourself this:  would you take risks knowing ahead of time that
you wouldn't be able to learn from your failures?  Knowing that the
chances were real good that you'd make the same mistakes over and over
and over and over, all because you couldn't figure out what was going on?

*That's* the situation I face.  I can barely, if at all, learn from my
failures because I can't read people or situations and thus I can't tell
what the #@$!! is going on.

>I used to punish myself every time I made a mistake, because I should
>have known better.  

Me too.  I've stopped doing that as well.

You realize, of course, that there's a *difference* between punishing
yourself for a mistake and discovering your limitations as a result of
your mistakes, right?  I *used* to do the former.  I don't anymore.  I
do the latter.

>>I was born with learning disabilities.  In particular, I had serious
>>pattern-matching deficiencies of all kinds, from sound patterns to
>>visual patterns.
>
>I have a lot of compassion for your difficulties, because I think
>you are facing some things that we can't understand.  

This is a big part of the problem, and a primary reason that *I* get
so frustrated when people complain about my "yes, but" responses.  I
say "yes, but" for a *reason*.

>But you are
>really doing a lot of damaging things to the most important person
>in your life, and I think you need to work very hard on trying to
>change that.

Do my postings really look that similar to the ones I produced a couple
of years ago?  I mean, I've changed significantly during that period of
time, but it may not show here, probably because what I've been
discussing here *hasn't* changed at all during the past couple of years
(lots of other things, like my general approach to life and all that,
have).

>The first place I think you have to start is to try to find some joy,
>something you can live for.  

Well, *that* is something I've already done.  I feel the need...the need
for *speed*.  :-) :-)

Put another way, there's no such thing as too much horsepower.  :-)

Just wait until I get my autocross car...:-)

>Right now, you focus an incredible
>amount of attention on how horrible it is to be alone.  

I do???  God knows that wasn't my intention.  I can see why you believe
this, given my postings as of late.  But I think that if you will look
carefully, you'll see that it is rare indeed that I even *talk* about
being alone.  Rather, what I've been doing (or so I think :-) is
concentrating on how to *not* be alone.  Perhaps the fervor with which
I have approached the problem has everyone confused.

My opinion on being alone?  It's not *that* big a deal.  Obviously, I'd
prefer to share my life with someone, but I can do without (hell, I've
managed to prove this much).

Now, before any of you say "that's exactly the kind of attitude you need
if you're going to find romance", let me remind you that my attitude
about this hasn't done a damned thing for me except to keep me sane (one
might argue whether or not I'm sane, but I like to think I am :-), so
I have no reason at all to believe that my attitude towards not having
a relationship is going to help at all with respect to finding one.

>But life has
>a lot more to it than that.  What's kept me afloat through the hard
>times was the fact that I was determined to not lose the chance to
>see another sunrise, because they're all different, and all magic.

I don't believe in magic, but I know what you mean.

>I also get to hear music that I love, climb mountains every once in
>awhile, and watch my cat dissolve in pleasure as I rub her belly.

Now *these* are definitely worth living for, especially the latter (with
which I have much experience :-).

>That stuff doesn't get less wonderful without a partner unless you
>want it to be.

Well, this is true to a degree.  For things like mountain climbing,
or bicycling, or any of these other activities, my experience is that
they're *always* more fun when you do them with someone else.  I have
no idea whether or not it matters that the someone else is particularly
close.

>People are not predominantly cruel.  People do not predominantly reject
>those who are "different" out of hand.  People are not unworthy of trust.

This has not been my experience at all.  Perhaps this is a function of
the environment.

>>You already know that my interests are all male-dominated (computers,
>>science, fast cars, aviation, technology in general, etc.).  About the
>>only ones that arent't is my interest in cats, but there's little to talk
>>about there, and my interest in music (jazz in particular), which also
>>yields little to actually talk about.
>
>What a paragraph!  You haven't met some of my friends if you think
>that there isn't much to talk about with respect to cats.  They can
>talk for a long time about cat care, cat behaviour, cats they've met,
>and so on.  

Maybe I need to meet these friends of yours, then.  :-)  At least you
don't live *that* far away from me.

>And music is the same way - it's possible to talk about
>music for hours with me (music was the main focus of a small party
>I had here one night last week).  I can understand it if you can't
>talk about these things for hours yet, but it's potentially there.

This is true.  If I were to pursue these things with the same kind of
interest that I pursue computers and cars, I could well become that
conversant in them.  One tends to become an expert in the things one
is interested in, after all.  Maybe I should become an expert in more
things.

One thing at a time, though...


>I also think one of the best ways to keep a conversation rolling
>is to talk to someone else about what they love and _why_ they love
>it.  If nothing else, this will make you understand something a little
>better the next time you get a chance to talk about it.

Oh, I agree.  I just don't yet understand how to go about this without
the conversation turning into an interrogation.  Any ideas?

>In summary, I think you need to start using that capacious logical
>mind to figure out how to hurt yourself less, 

Done.

>and to figure out how
>to love something enough to want to be fully alive.  

Done.

>Once you aren't
>desperate, you may be able to find more energy and creativity to
>come up with your own ideas to better your situation.

This is the hard bit, but I'm working on it.  I'm still planning on seeing
about getting into theatre.  I'm also going to see if I can get back into
camping and backpacking, and perhaps even bicycling (I already have a
real nice bike, but it's hard to find safe places to ride around here.
The last time I tried to ride in an area designated for that purpose, I
got ripped off at knifepoint, so I stick to the streets.  Sigh).

And maybe singles clubs (like dining clubs) and the like.  I've gotten
lots of really good suggestions along these lines.  I'm open to more.

>Rob T


-- 
				Kevin Brown

			    kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com
			    kevin@taronga.taronga.com
Newsgroups: soc.singles