HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: CD ROMS (was: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2)
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:28:37 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


--
All these complaints about CD ROM players.  Useless because they can't be
written to.  Too expensive.  Not everyone has them.

The same could be said about audio CDs several years ago.  Yet nowadays CD is
the preferred medium (ha!) for audio distribution, and nearly anyone who is
serious about music has a CD player.  No one is complaining now about how
"expensive" the CD players are and how "useless" CDs are because they can't be
written to.  (Who would want to write to a master disk anyway?)

Someone said that "as soon as $3+<cost of mastering>/disk reaches the price of
floppies, then CD ROM would be the best choice."  Well, first I could contend
that that's not the only issue, cost of shipping and ease of installation are
other issues. 

Not all CD media, as I understand it, must be "mastered".  WORM disks work just
fine in CD ROM drives.  You have one WORM drive to do duplication.  You buy
blank WORM disks, fill them up, and ship them.  No mastering costs.  Now I
don't know how much WORM disks cost.  But I can guarantee that the tradeoff in
cost is well below the cost of 458/550 1.44/1.2 disks it stores the equivalent
of (at at least a quarter each; that's $125).  Heck, for something like OS/2,
CD ROMs are probably more cost effective in the long run.

And it is wholly unfair to convict Microsoft of some gross conspiracy or idiocy
because as has been pointed out, Unix vendors have been distributing in this
way for years.  (Before that, they distributed on tape.  I have yet to see a
Unix program distributed on floppy; in fact, very few Unix machines I've seen
even HAVE floppies.)

If nothing else, CD ROMs are useful for documentation.  (Try juggling 20
diskettes of documentation searching for a phrase.) DIGITAL has put every
letter of its huge VMS documentation set (oh, what, thirty inch and half
volumnes) on CD ROM, you can put it on the network, and use a special program
for reading it.  Documentation on CD ROM is always cheaper than the paper
counterpart; DIGITAL is actually giving financial incentives to use CD ROM
documentation. 

I've used CD ROMs for installing Ultrix.  Man, is it great to be able to just
slide in a CD ROM, search the twenty or thirty applications on there, and
install in a jiffy.

I for one am glad that CD ROM is making it into the mainstream.

Eric

/=============================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer     For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA  pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com          they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==============================- 2 Th 2:15 -==================================/
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1922 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4195
From: sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 19 Aug 92 01:35:31 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Sciences Corporation - Systems Engineering Division

mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>Ever heard of TAPE?

Have you seen what else MS is doing with CD-ROM?  How about other computer
companies?  The CD-ROM is the only medium that is versatile enough to 
make massive amounts of data accessible to the "user".  Can you imagine how
responsive tape would be loading full motion video?  How about accessing an
indexed database of census data?  I'd love to wait a few minutes while my
tape winds and rewinds to read in data because I can write to tape.  CD-ROM
is much more flexible in accessing data than a tape.  How about reproduction
times?  How long does it take to reporduce 10,000 tapes as opposed to CD-ROMs?

There's all kind of aspects to consider when you look at this.  CD-ROM for 
software distribution ONLY is not the cheapest (for a drive anyway).  But look
at the other things you can do with it.  MS will be shipping a developer's
CD with 30,000-40,000 pages of information on it.  Reading the data in that
database in a random-access manor would be insufferable via tape.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: bill@snoopy (Bill Poitras)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Reply-To: bill@msi.com
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 02:14:17 GMT

fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
: Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
: count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
: Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
: this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
: workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
: Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.

Actually its brilliant.  Although many money strapped students and
hobbyists won't go out and buy it, corporations who want to take a look
at will say "Gee its only $69?  Get it".  Then they end up spending the
money on the PC to upgrade.  Don't say it doesn't happen.  It did today
at one of my meetings.

Once the NT developers start getting thier CD-ROMS up and running, MS can
switch all of thier stuff over to CD-ROM, which is much cheaper for them.
Basically they are "forcing" the upgrade, like Sun is doing.  Since
people are complying to thier "request", MS will keep on using CD-ROMs.
Another sign of MS's marketing at work.

--
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Bill Poitras    | Molecular Simulations Inc.    | Tel (408)522-9229       |
| (bill)          | Sunnyvale, CA USA             |                         | 
|                 | FAX (408)732-0831             | bill@msi.com            |
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+

Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1970 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4302
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:42:45 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <Bt9D0B.9E7@acsu.buffalo.edu> v053qpgh@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Eric W Sarjeant) writes:
>Since when did the Apple II's have hard drives? I purchased an Apple IIe
>and hard drive storage was not even an option at the time. As far as I can
>remember, the Apple series was not internally structured to conviently
>fit a hard drive upgrade.

Although they were unheard of a few years ago, hard drives for the
Apple IIe and IIgs are common these days.  They have to be external,
though, since there is no "drive bay" to mount it in.  They (usually)
only support ProDOS or GS-OS, but that's OK, since Apple doesn't
support DOS 3.3 anymore.

Actually, they were around about two years before the Macintosh - if
you remember the Apple Profile drive - it was a 12" external 10MB
drive.  Pre-formatted for ProDOS.

Of course, Apple doesn't sell many II's these days, either.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Mike Levis)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:46:36 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio

In article <1992Aug20.151512.25663@nosc.mil> discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar) writes:
>Nintendo is based solely on read-only "mass storage" (if you can call the
>cartridges storage)--but I daresay, the NES is more popular in my neighborhood
>than any other "computer" on the market.  In other words, just because you
>can't write to it, doesn't mean it isn't useful.

[ I have been watching this debate with interest;  both sides have
excellent arguments -- so I'm still neutral.  Let me just say
one thing and I'll leave this debate. ]

NES writes to its cartridge, as well.  This is how the high
scores, and saved games are stored.  This surprised me since
I assumed NES was read-only, just like the Atari 2600, Coleco,
Intellivision, etc.

[ Okay, back to your fight... er, I mean... debate. ]

-- 
==== Mike Levis   mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu ====
::   ftp ftp.cs.widener.edu (147.31.254.132)  ::  .--.
::   for ``The Simpsons'' information.  Get   :: (OS/2)
:::: ``Simpsons'' FAQL in dir /pub/simpsons ::::  ~--~
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Timothy F. Sipples)
Subject: CD-ROM (Was: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT)
Followup-To: comp.os.os2.misc
Reply-To: sip1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: Dept. of Econ., Univ. of Chicago
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 20:51:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.184820.949@terminator.cc.umich.edu> potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts) writes:
>Don't bet on it. I wasn't able to get my CD-ROM drive to work in a DOS
>session under OS/2. The scenario went something like this:
>OS/2: OK, DOS is starting up, so run AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS.
>CONFIG.SYS: chug, chug, chug, install, install, install...
>CD-ROM driver: Hello, system!  I'm a CD-ROM driver. What version of
>DOS are you?
>OS/2: Why, I'm not DOS, I'm OS/2 2.0!!!
>CD-ROM driver: "Help!  Imposter!  Aaarrrggghhh!!! I can't run on
>*you*..."

Use a specific DOS session -- see Appendix E of your Installation
Guide.  This procedure is well documented.

Note that a specific DOS session is only required if the included OS/2
CD-ROM device driver does not support your CD-ROM drive.  It supports
many (especially if you add the /I switch to the DEVICE line in
CONFIG.SYS).

>And, of course, I was unable to use the SETVER command because OS/2 does not
>support DOS 5.0 commands...

Incorrect on both counts.  SETVER has been moved -- it is now much
friendlier, far less arcane.  Check your DOS settings.  Also, OS/2's
DOS emulation is, for all practical purposes, DOS 5.0.  Furthermore,
with the specific DOS session capability you can use genuine DOS 5.0,
DR-DOS, DOS 4.0, DOS 3.3, Desqview atop DOS, or whatever -- and run
them at the same time.  You have tremendous flexibility here.

For example, I'm inclined to set up my system so that I can have one
Windows desktop running in standard VGA (640x480 16 colors) and
another running in 800x600.  I can have both desktops available at the
same time.  I can run graphics programs (which like 256 colors) in one
desktop and run text programs (like my word processor) in the 16 color
desktop.  That way I pay the speed penalty only when the extra colors
are needed.  And switching between the multiple Windows desktops is as
easy as CTRL-ESC.

-- 
Get the OS/2 FREQ. ASKED QUESTIONS LIST | Timothy F. Sipples
from 128.123.35.151, anonymous ftp,     | Internet: sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu
directory pub/os2/all/faq, or from      | Dept. of Econ., U. Chicago, 60637
LISTSERV@BLEKUL11.BITNET (send "HELP"). | Tsongas > Perot > Clinton.  Yay.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1939 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4233
From: rovero@oc.nps.navy.mil (Josh Rovero)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:38:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: taurus.5941
Distribution: na
Organization: Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey CA

Yeah, but you can make OS/2 lie to any program/driver.  Look in DOS settings,
I think it's called DOS_version.   Works just like SETVER for that DOS
session.

-- 
Josh Rovero   (rovero@oc.nps.navy.mil) | or Internet 5346p@cc.nps.navy.mil 
Department of Oceanography, Code OC/Rv |      Bitnet 5346p@NAVPGS 
Naval Postgraduate School              |              
Monterey, CA  93943   (408) 646-2084   |
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:15:05 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug20.185825.16102@microsoft.com> philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
>
>>This isn't an upgrade to a newer technology, and it is NOT cheaper for
>>me.  It might be much more convenient for YOU, but that's Microsoft's
>>problem, not mine.  I CANNOT WRITE TO A CD-ROM.  THEREFORE, THERE IS
>>NO REAL REASON TO BUY ONE EXCEPT FOR ARROGANT VENDORS WHO SEEM TO
>>THINK THEY CAN FORCE THEM ON PEOPLE.
>
>     Please explain to me how anyone is forcing you to buy a CD-ROM.
>Try not to use any gratuitous capital letters or exclamation
>points.
>
>					-Phil
>

Bet this guy was pissed off when they invented the Automobile,
'cause he couldn't use his horse and carrage on the road anymore.

petesk@microsoft.com
My Opinions
`

Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:38:45 GMT

In <1992Aug07.085102.4917@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:

>In article <1992Aug6.143632.25377@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu> rick@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu (Richard Warner) writes:
>>philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
>>>     Correct.  It's an alpha at best.
>>
>>>>  And they are only available to a
>>>>select corps of developers.
>>
>>>     This is not my understanding.  Can you please explain?
>>
>>That's easy.  How many copies of this pre-alpha are available on a media
>>other than CD-ROM?  MS has selected those developers/would-be developers
>>that have or are willing to purchase a CD-ROM player.
>>

>Yeah, and they didn't release it for anyone writing for the
>HP 48s calculator.  And you know what irk's me, OS/2 is only
>release on magnetic media.  You mean I have to go out and buy
>a disk drive when I have a perfectly good paper tape reader
>hooked up to my computer ;)

Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.

>You sort of hit on point that pisses me off a bit, actually.
>I know a lot of "development houses" that think you need no
>money to develope software.  Frankly, you probably need as much
>to develop software as you need to develop hardware.  In fact,
>one of these houses owe's me money from a while ago.  Developing
>isn't cheap.  If you think that developing high quality software
>for large computers is easy, well, then, I've got a bridge in
>Brooklyn to sell you.  (Maybe I can recoup some of my losses from
>that bad software dev't deall)

It's not a matter of 'not needing money'.  It's a matter of needing a
CD-ROM. 


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: timbol@netcom.com (Mike Timbol)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 07:37:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug17.200236.17403@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>[And NT can't take a full CD-ROM (660 MB), either, unless MS is
>*GROSSLY* lying about how large a hard disk someone should have to
>install it.  The only stuff it seems to make sense to me to have a
>CD-ROM for is stuff that has like 500 MB of clip art.]

NT doesn't take a full CD-ROM.  But what if it only takes half? (it
doesn't, by the way).  How about a third?  Even if it only took up
10% of the CD-ROM, wouldn't you rather have one CD-ROM than 40+ floppies?
(Well, I guess *you* wouldn't, but I think many other people would...)

Also, a lot of other things can be put on a CD-ROM (not just clip art).
On-line documentation, for instance.  Wouldn't you rather have 50+ MB
of documentation on a CD-ROM instead of taking up a large chunk of
your hard disk?

>Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

- Mike
From: sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:44:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: anagld.1574
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Sciences Corporation - Systems Engineering Division

mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>I write user-friendly software -- that kills people.

What OS?
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1940 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4234
From: orville%weyrich@tnet.com (Orville R. Weyrich)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Reply-To: tnet.com!weyrich!orville
Organization: Weyrich Computer Consulting
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 09:57:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.162641.13575@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1992Aug15.010451.25474@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:
>
>>>fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
>>>: Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>>>: count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>>>: Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>>>: this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>>>: workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>>>: Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.
>>>
>
>Well, my first computer HAD floppies, but let's look at that assertion
>a minute.  By switching from tape to floppy, I got faster load times,
>random access reads/writes, etc.  Now, what do I get from having a
>CD-ROM that might be useful to me?  The ability to load the Windows/NT
>SDK.  That's it.  It's not worth buying a CD-ROM drive for.
>
>YOU CAN'T WRITE TO A FRIGGING CD-ROM!  Why is it that folks at
>Microsoft don't seem to be able to understand that?  WHY WOULD I WANT
>TO BUY A MASS STORAGE DEVICE THAT I CAN'T WRITE TO?
>
>>People NOT upgrading to newer technologies is REDICULOUS, especially
>>when it is cheaper in the long run.
>
>This isn't an upgrade to a newer technology, and it is NOT cheaper for
>me.  It might be much more convenient for YOU, but that's Microsoft's
>problem, not mine.  I CANNOT WRITE TO A CD-ROM.  THEREFORE, THERE IS
>NO REAL REASON TO BUY ONE EXCEPT FOR ARROGANT VENDORS WHO SEEM TO
>THINK THEY CAN FORCE THEM ON PEOPLE.
>

I would be happy to buy a CD-ROM if there was sufficient stuff published at
reasonable cost (about $100 say) per volume:

	Chem Abstracts (not on CD-ROM at any price)
	The Federal Register (? available, several thousand dollars per year)
	Compendex (? available, several thousand dollars per year)
	Science Citation (???)
	Current Contents (???)
	Other Abstracts (some available, cost way too much)
	Grolliers Encyclopedia (Ha! If its like the hardcopy, no thanks)
	UNIX Clone with complete source (not yet, but probably coming if
			AT&T doesn't trash it in court)
	NT with complete source (dream on)

But just to load NT SDK? No way.

orville

--------------------------------------       **********************************
Orville R. Weyrich, Jr.                          Weyrich Computer Consulting
Certified Data Processor                       POB 5782, Scottsdale, AZ 85261
Certified Systems Professional                      Voice: (602) 391-0821
Certified Computer Programmer                Internet: orville%weyrich@tnet.com
--------------------------------------       **********************************
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1962 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4284
From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: CD-ROMs and CorelDraw!
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:34:56 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:

>In  <weinkam.714244767@sfu.ca>  weinkam@fraser.sfu.ca (James Lawrence Weinkam) writes:
>> >>What I don't like is the CD-ROM software you find in stores - they
>> >>typically want over $300 for one application - even ones that sell for
>> >>less money on floppy.  Corel Draw! is one example - the CD should cost
>> >>LESS than the floppy version, not more - it costs about $10 to press a
>> >>computer-grade CD, compared to the $0.50 per disk it costs to write HD
>> >>floppies.  This gouging is giving the CD-ROM market a very bad name.
>>
>> I thought that the disk only version of Corel Draw came on ten disks.

>The flyer on CorelDraw! 3.0 that I have says that every box comes with
>a bonus CD-ROM.  Is there actually a diskette-only version, or are people
>comparing the price of 3.0 and a previous version?  If the latter, then
>this argument is pointless.

According to the people at Corel, the upgrade kit to Draw! 3.0 is available
in three flavors, depending on your choice of magnetic media: 3-1/2",
5-1/4", and none.  All three come with the same CD-ROM, which is documented
by Corel as containing material which is not available on either of the
magnetic media formats.  The list price for the CD-ROM only version was
$25 or so below the other two.  (I forget the exact price break.)  

That's the good news; the bad news was that a survey of the numerous DC-area
software distributors did not reveal any retail availability of the CD-only
package, and the street price of the CD-plus-magnetic packages was below
that of the CD-only package ordered directly from Corel.  The result is
that I now have an unused set of floppies for Corel Draw!.

I'm not sure if a full retail (non-upgrade) copy of Corel is available
in CD-ROM only.   I expect that it is available since the upgrade kit
is a complete copy (including a registration card which asks if you 
acquired the package as an upgrade).

Since all the Corel Draw! kits I've seen *do* include the CD-ROM, I don't
understand the original posting about a CD-ROM version costing more than
a magnetic media kit.

The order form from Microsoft for the Windows 3.1 Device Driver Kit listed
a price break of somewhere about $50 if you ordered it on CD-ROM instead
of magnetic media.  (The kit occupies 27 3-1/2" high density floppies.)

Joe Morris / MITRE
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy