HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jsemrad@ems.cdc.com (Joe Semrad)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Hunters legitimate concern
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:48:29 GMT
Reply-To: jsemrad@ems.cdc.com
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of Ceridian

|> 
|> Todd intimated that he had attended a Ducks Unlimited banquet where
|> shotguns were raffled-off to hunters.   Do you think that banquets
|> and shotgun raffles are a good way to spend money in support of
|> wildlife?
|> 
|> -- 
|> Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
|> russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ

Russell you must be unfamiliar with how these banquets operate.  While
I don't belong to DU, I do belong to the Ruffed Grouse Society.  RGS 
also uses banquets as a fund raising tool.

The banquet tickets are usually quite expensive.  Also the items raffled
off are usually donated or obtained at below market value.  Generally
they are things of interest to hunters, such as guns, wildlife prints,
dog supplies, hunting trips, etc.  Some of the guns may be special
commemorative models so perhaps there are a few non-hunting gun collectors
hoping to win them.

In any event, these banquets end up raising more money than they cost to
put on, while providing social recreation, education (there is usually a
speaker), and the opportunity to win prizes.  The regional newsletter that
the RGS sends out lists the amounts of money each banquet in Minnesota
raises, as well as the number of people who attended.  Note that this money
comes mostly from people who are already members of RGS and who have
already paid their dues to the organization.  Attendance at the banquets is,
of course, optional.

If, as you say, you received solicitations from DU and have donated in the
past I find it hard to believe that you weren't aware that the banquets were
fund raisers.  I also find it hard to believe that you weren't aware that
while you don't have to be a hunter to belong to groups like DU that a very
large fraction of their members are hunters.  Especially since you do seem
very concerned that you don't give money to groups that support hunting in
any way.

If you don't want to donate to DU or other such groups, fine.  But don't
stop donating.  There are other groups that probably have a different mix
of hunters and nonhunters, such as Audobon and the Nature Conservancy.
I suspect though, that unless a group has a political anti-hunting agenda
(and I don't believe the above groups do, though I could be wrong), you
won't be able to get away from hunters as I'm sure they donate to groups
like the above as well.

Joe

As always, opinions are mine, bla, bla, bla....
-- 
================================================================
= C. Joseph Semrad                  =   Phone: 612-553-4758    =
= EMPOWER Development               =   FAX:   612-553-4018    =
= Empros Systems International      =   jsemrad@ems.cdc.com    =
================================================================
=      1991 Minnesota Twins, Baseball's World Champions!       =
=           So, Jack it was the money, wasn't it?              =
================================================================
From: robinson@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Letter to John Robinson
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:47:24 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1992Jul21.172135.19116@clpd.kodak.com>, black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236)) writes:
> In article <1992Jul17.052521.10939@informix.com> proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul16.161229.20082@clpd.kodak.com> black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236)) writes:
>>>
>>>John Robinson wrote to David Caruso II:
>>>>......  Would you think more highly of hunters if they dragged their 
>>>>heels as they went into the woods, reluctant to dicharge a distateful 
>>>>duty?
>>>
>>>				YES
>>
>>Quite. Conversely, what would you think of a state executioner who
>>really REALLY enjoyed his job? 
> 
> I certainly would not want this executioner to be the one who decided
> whether a particular individual should be executed or not.

Executioners don't decide.  Others decide.  They're called jurors, judges 
and govonors.  Executioners just push the button or pull the switch long after 
the decision has already been made. None of which has the slightest bit to 
do with the topic of discusion, talk.politics.animals.  Nice attempt at a 
diversion though. :)

> 
>>
>>Would you have any objection to the State of California "auctioning"
>>off to the highest bidder the opportunity to be the one who presses
>>The Button at San Quentin? - I am sure there would be some takers, 
>>and the money so raised could be spent on various worthwhile projects.
> 
> I certainly would not want this highest bidding button pusher to be the
> one who decided whether a particular individual should be executed or
> not. 

See above.

> 
>>Paul
> 
> ---
> Robert Black 
> black@serum.kodak.com  - The ONLY email address that MIGHT work.
> These views are not necessarily the views of my employers.
> 
-- 
John Robinson                  Only criminals, tyrants, and cowards have
robinson@ac.dal.ca                 reason to fear the armed, honest citizen.
DOD #0069
From: rms@acsu.buffalo.edu (Robert M. Straubinger)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: SEA SHEPHERD; LITIGATION; CANADA
Date: 31 Jul 92 03:57:01 GMT
Organization: SUNY/Buffalo Pharmaceutics

In article <9207291526.AA28569@super.super.org> wheeler@SUPER.ORG (Ferrell S. Wheeler) writes:
>SEA SHEPHERD; LITIGATION; CANADA
>SEA SHEPHERD LAWSUIT AGAINST CANADA COMES TO TRIAL
> 
>In 1983, the Sea shepherd II was boarded and seized by the Royal
>Canadian Mounted Police in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.
> 
>Her Captain and crew were charged with conspiracy, mischief,
>intimidation nd numerous violations of the Seal Protection Act.
> 
>In December 1983, the Sea Shepherd Society was found guilty by
      ........
>The sentences were overturned and the entire crew was acquitted.
> 
>The Federal Canadian Government retaliated and took the issue to
>the Supreme Court of Canada.  The decision by the Quebec Court of
>Appeals was upheld and the victory went to the Sea Shepherd
>Conservation Society.
> 
>The victory was made even sweeter by the decision of the Supreme
>Court of Canada to strike down the seal Protection Act on the
>grounds that it was unconstitutional and a violation of the
>Canadian Bill of Rights.
> 
>We fought the law and won.  The law was defeated.  Our ship was
>ordered returned to us.

Another head-scratcher.

Could somebody clarify what is the 'Seal Protection Act' of Canada,
and why it's repeal would be a victory for people (I presume by context)
who seek to protect animals?

RMS
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Subject: Re: "A Very Good Opponent."
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:28:32 GMT

dreamer@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (David Caruso II ~~~) writes:

>	A "very good opponent" ... wow, if a turkey is a very good opponent,
>what's a not-so-good opponent?  A tree?  How about a barn?  Is hunting barns
>sport?  I guess they have to be alive to be sport.  Some sport.  Outwitting a
>turkey.  Sounds a little too challenging for me.

Once again, dreamer tries to sound like an expert about something he knows
nothing about and winds up looking foolish.

Veteran hunters generally consider the Eastern Wild Turkey to be one of
the most difficult big game animals of all to hunt;  not that dreamer would
have any idea about that, or would he care.  Hey dreamer, you're a college
boy, right?  Go to the library and look up what Ben Franklin said about the
wild turkey;  he wanted to make them the national bird rather than the bald
eagle, and one of the main reasons was the turkey's intelligence.  This ain't
no dumb barnyard bird we're talking about, but a savvy, wary big game animal
that most people never even see, with eyesight roughly equivalent to humans
looking through 10 power binoculars.  It has been said that if wild turkeys
had the sense of smell of a whitetail deer, nobody would EVER kill one, and
as a veteran turkey hunter, I believe it!

dreamer, every time you post something, the hunters on this net marvel at just
how close to absolutely nothing you know about what you speak.  Even the non-
hunters must find some of your assertions ignorant and laughable.

Once again, dreamer, thanks for trying to speak for the AR side;  hunters need
more fools like you serving as spokesmen for the opposition.   


Ken Whitehead
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: wheeler@SUPER.ORG (Ferrell S. Wheeler)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: ANIMALEARN
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:12:50 GMT



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Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Ethical Relativism. Was: Hunters: Legitimate concern?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 03:57:44 GMT

 black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236)) writes:

>In article <Bs1IoE.1ox@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>>
>>Russell Lawrence asks John Van Etten:
>>rl> Has it occurred to you that an action might be ethical or unethical
>>rl> regardless of the power of the person performing the action?
>>
>>Dan Sorenson:
>>ds> Yes, it has.  I've discovered that there is no absolute morality
>>ds> or ethical code. 

>What about Kant's Categorical Imperative?  Why wouldn't that comprise an
>absolute ethical code?

	To be honest, I'm drawing a complete blank on this -- for the
benefit of myself and others, do you have it handy?  I'd like to read
it -- maybe I have already, but I can't access that data right now.

	Anyway, if somebody disagreed with any facet of it, then it
wouldn't be an absolute ethical code, would it?  It would not be perfect
for one individual, and hence can't be absolute in that sense of the
word.  If you have another interpretation of absolute, let's run it up
the flagpole and see who salutes.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Letter to John Robinson
Date: 28 Jul 92 00:45:41 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

Robert Black writes:

>> But what Paul was pointing out is that in the case of killing an individual
>> animal, it's not "others" who decide.  The juror, judge, and executioner
>> are one and the same.  And those who enjoy the execution are not the ones
>> who should be the judges.  I don't think there's a great disagreement here,
>> since all hunters in this forum allegedly don't enjoy killing.

John Robinson writes:

>And you discovered this by mind melding with him is that it? 

As a matter of fact, yes :-)

>                                                              I think he's 
>demonstrated that he is quite capable of speaking for himself so why don't 
>you concentrate on what you're trying to say? 

I think there's a compliment of sorts in that sentence. Actually I am
having a hard time keeping up with all the traffic here, and if anyone
cares to pick up my side of the discussion, that's fine by me; I seem
to recall chipping in on others' exchanges in the past.

Besides, yesterday I couldn't post because I'd spilled coffee on my keyboard
and it wouldn't recognise caps - ergo no "F"(ollowup), no "?" .. but I
digress.

Paul
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: wheeler@SUPER.ORG (Ferrell S. Wheeler)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: GRAZING; LIVESTOCK; PUBLIC LANDS
Date: 30 Jul 92 02:20:56 GMT


GRAZING; LIVESTOCK; PUBLIC LANDS
 
 
RICH PROFIT ON CUT-RATE PUBLIC LAND
 
Over 76 million acres of public lands leased for cattle and sheep
grazing are controlled by just 500 corporations and individuals,
according to a new General Accounting Office study.
 
Those permit holders controlled more than 46% of the 163 million
acres of public lands in Western states leased for grazing, said
the study, while the 2,000 smallest operators controlled just
0.5%
 
"That is outrageous.  That is an average of around 152,000 acres
per permittee, 4 times the size of the District of Columbia,"
said Rep. Mike Synar, D-OK, who request the GAO study.
 
"Union Oil, Getty Oil, Hunt Oil, Texas, major utilities, foreign
meat producers" are among those 500 largest permit holders, he
said.
 
Daniel H. Russell, a California developer, is the largest single
permit holder, according to the GAO.  With his son, Russell
controls more than 5.6 million acres of public lands.
 
Synar said the GAO study supports his arguments that many of the
individuals and companies that lease public lands for grazing
should pay more for the privilege.
 
Current grazing fees are so low, said Synar, that if those
companies and individuals simply paid the same rate that the BLM
charges ranchers for cattle who stray onto public lands the
federal government would have gotten $2 billion more in income
over the past decade.
  
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From: wheeler@SUPER.ORG (Ferrell S. Wheeler)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: ENTERTAINMENT; ANIMAL ABUSE
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:47:47 GMT


ENTERTAINMENT; ANIMAL ABUSE
 
 
+ Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo officials said Feb. 20 that
they won't put on a rodeo for the Republican convention Aug.
17-20, because performing at a political event could jeopardize
their tax-exempt status.  The organization did stage a command
performance at George Bush's request in 1990, to entertain the
World Economic Summit.  A private rodeo is to be held for the
1,200-member California delegation, and other delegations are
expected to attend private rodeo events, as well. 
 
+ The collapse of the Soviet Union left a Moscow Circus touring
unit stranded in Mexico City with a hippopotamus, eight monkeys,
and two dogs.  Neither the circus nor the Mexican promoter who
brought it to Mexico City can afford the airfare to send the
troupe home, leaving them to perform and pass the hat to raise
their living costs.
 
+ Hawaii state House Judiciary Chair Wayne Metcalf on Feb. 18
killed a bill to legalize cockfighting, which is openly practiced
throughout the islands.  Metcalf said his committee was concerned
both with cruelty and with links between cockfighting and
organized crime.
 
+ Polocrosse, or lacrosse on horseback, is gaining favor in the
northeast.  Dartmouth and St. Lawrence Universities have
polocrosse clubs, while the American Polocrosse Assn. claims
membership grew from 600 to 1,000 last year.   
 
+ HSUS on Feb. 25 asked Louisiana, one of the four states that
permits cockfighting, to ban an annual variant on polocrosse in
which live chickens substitute for balls.  Explained HSUS field
representative James Noe, "The Mamou ritual," practiced in and
around the town of Mamou, "is part of the traditional Mardi Gras
celebration.  A convoy of men rides across the countryside,
soliciting ingredients for a communal feast.  Live chickens are
the most popular donation, and the practice is for the animal to
be thrown into the air and chased by upward of 100 riders."
 
+ The Gay Men's Health Crisis group in New York City has promised
Feminists for Animal Rights that their March 27 fundraising
performance of the Ringling Bros. circus will be their last
fundraiser involving animal exploitation.   
 
+ The Smithsonian Institution is distributing a video in which
author Carlos Fuentes reportedly describes bullfighting as the
most important Spanish cultural legacy to Latin America.  Protest
to the Smithsonian c/o 1000 Jefferson Drive S.W., Washington, DC
20560.
 
 From: Animals Agenda
 456 Monroe Turnpike
 Monroe, CT 06468
 Issue: 5/92
 
 *  AmNet News Service * BBS 303/223-1297  *
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: refrig@dixie.com (Todd Hedenstrom)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Hunters: Legitimate concern?
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:29:17 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

>I'm still waiting for you to explain to me why you think it might 
>be perfectly ok for you to kill a billion individuals that you've 
>classed together in a group, but a great moral offense against 
>the "species" if you were to kill the last living pair belonging 
>to that particular group.  

It's not a great moral offense against the species that you're killing, it's
a great moral offense against all the OTHER species (including man) that
benefit from or are in some way reliant on the extincted species.  You seem
to be forgetting (as seems common amoung AR folk) that not only aren't men
the only species on earth, but that you can't just separate each species into
it's own little Zip-Lock baggie.

If I were to kill a duck come hunting season, it's no moral crime.  If it were
the last duck of it's kind anywhere, and I was the reason for the species'
extinction, then yes, it'd be a crime, but a crime against the world, not 
that duck.  Killing one animals does NOT equal extinction.

-- 
Todd++;
refrig@dixie.com

"Others may hate you ... but they cannot beat you ... unless you hate them.
 Then you destroy yourself."     ----  Richard M. Nixon
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: White Hats vs. Black Hats.  Was: DIET AND HEALTH NEWS
Organization: WP Group
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 23:44:17 GMT



Rich Young writes:
ry> This is old news.  The "Eating Right Pyramid" has been re-instated and
ry> has been blessed by the Cattlemen's Association.

From article <altar.712165127@sfu.ca>, by altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar):
twa> Was it actually "blessed" by the Cattlemen's Association or did 
twa> they simply resign themselves to the inevitable?  The political 
twa> interference on their behalf had raised such an outcry among health 
twa> professionals that I am not surprised that the Cattlemen's Assoc. 
twa> had to capitulate.  

It's truly sad that many people in our society still consider ignorance
to be preferable to truth.

According to _PCRM Update_ (V8, N1), the _National Cattlemen_ 
magazine recently awarded Harvard physician and researcher, 
Walter Willett, with a "Black Hat" designation as punishment for 
the findings of the Boston Cooperative Nurses Study, which 
established a strong correlation between dietary meat-intake and 
colon cancer.  By contrast, the magazine awarded "White Hats" to 
McDonald's and Hardee's restaurant chains.  I suppose we can 
conclude from this that it's a "good thing" to promote 
hamburgers, and a "bad thing" to carry on research that uncovers 
some nasty side-effects of meat consumption.  

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236))
Subject: Re: Letter to John Robinson
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:45:04 GMT

In article <viking.712035604@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>
>...  In addition, one Ted Nugent killed
>a wild hog with nothing more than a large hunting knife in a fairly short
>amount of time.

How short?  Why?  Was Nugent on some sort of ego trip ... or did he
have some legitimate purpose other than just demonstrating it could be
done?  If he had to kill the hog, why not use a gun?

Thank goodness there is just one of him! :-)


>	The competence of these individuals shows that laws based upon
>a percieved incompetence of a given individual have no reason to exist,
>and only restrict the best instead of stopping the worst.  Is that
>what you want?  I'll leave the range of the kennedy assassination to
>pay homage to your point.  It was a headshot, remember.

Competence is not the issue here.  A slight twitch by the animal and
you've got either a complete miss (at best) or a cripple (at worst) 
with a potentially very difficult and time-consuming tracking problem.

These do not appear to be the types of actions of anyone who really
has the animals interest in mind.

>
><Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
><z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
><viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
>< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >

---
Robert Black 
black@serum.kodak.com  - The ONLY email address that MIGHT work.
These views are not necessarily the views of my employers.