From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:05:47 GMT
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University

cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>and it's not just munchkins who like playing in an already-made universe 
>>(ask any Amber player). 
>
>Amber's a literary universe; rather different than one custom-built for a
>particular gaming style. 

	Amber as a universe and as a game-system is also built for a 
particular gaming style: the competetive plotting, betrayals, etc. 
	And regardless of whether you accept the latter, the point remains 
the same. Amber GMs are running in an already-made universe, rather than 
being creative and making their own - just like you concluded about 
Shadowrun. 

>
[cc. Johnny Mnemonic]
>If little Johnny, the man with the silicon in his head, is a shadowrunner,
>then I'm Rush Limbaugh. Johnny's a pawn, an incompetant with an enhancement
>that lets him make money. No more.

	Alright - let's ask all those SR's out there how many times their 
characters were used as pawns. I would bet the answer is 'quite often'. 
I think you are interpreting 'shadowrunner' to be 'shadowrunner in a 
munchkin game.' In the books and modules, SRers are constantly used as 
tools - their definition is just that they do freelance, often illegal, 
jobs for hire. Molly, Johnny, and many others fall into this category. 

>
>>	The *plot* is typical of cinema (R-rated, of course). What makes 
>>it cyberpunk is the attitude and the style. 
>
>What makes it cyberpunk is it's writing style, characterization, and plot. 
>And while "JM"'s plot bears some resemblance to common cultural entertainment 
>(this is a part of cyberpunk as well), it's not 'cinematic' in the sense I 
>was talking about above, which has more to do with the characters being 
>larger-than-life and with almost complete plot invulnerability.

	Uh - the original rules were not especially deadly, but I have been 
told SRII is quite so. As far as being 'larger-than-life', I'm not sure I 
know what you mean. Gibson's universe is filled with ultra-powerful people. 
The assassin in "JM" was able to dodge bullet and slice people into jullienne 
fries, and Molly defeated him in melee. I can dig out my books for the names 
of lots of other examples. 

>
>>	Well, it never claimed to be pure cyberpunk - it never billed 
>>itself as a simulation of cyberpunk literature.
>
>Actually, it did. Am I the only person who remembers all the ads about the 
>new 'cyberpunk meets magic' game?

	Uh, that's what I meant when I said it was not intended to be 'pure' 
cyberpunk. It shares many facets of CP stuff, but it is also different in 
many ways (most notably in many of the themes - the native peoples, the 
merging of ways, etc.). 

>
>It's completely lacking any soul (IMHO), and has all of the trappings of 
>CP but none of the depth.

	Oh, come one. You are judging CP literature by the best that is 
out there, and you are judging Shadowrun by the worst munchkin campaigns. 
There are plenty of lousy, shallow cyberpunk books out there - and plenty 
of good SR campaigns. If you think that any system can - by virtue of its 
rules or its universe - give soul or depth to a campaign, then I must 
strongly disagree. 

>
><nods> Actually, I'll be fair. -Most- campaigns, of whatever game, tend to be
>unimpressive to outsiders. It's just that, in my experience, SR tends to 
>attract the kind of gaming style/gamer that I stopped doing AD&D games at 
>conventions in order to avoid.

	I'd agree with that. Champions also seems to attract more than its 
share of power-gamers, IMO. However, this does not mean that good games 
cannot be run using SR or Champs, and it does not mean that they are bad 
rules systems or universes. 
	I like the SR universe and hate the rules. I like the Champs rules 
and hate the universe. However, it is easy to separate the rules and the 
universe for both of these. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "You're on the cutting room floor, Chaplin.
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | Not a good place to be."
Columbia University         |                  (from the movie 'Chaplin')