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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 17:56:27 EDT
From:         "Joseph P. Riolo" <riolo@COR4.PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: EITHER AND/OR: A BAPTISIMAL INQUIRY
X-To:         Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
X-cc:         riolo@PICA.ARMY.MIL

Jeff (Shirton),

>> Baptismal in the name of Jesus Christ Acts 2:38.
>>
>> Read the book of Acts and in that *** name *** they were baptize.
>>
>> Not in the Name of The Father,the Son,and Holy Espirit.
>
>        "Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in
>         heaven and on earth has been given to me.  Therefore
>         go and make disciples of all nations,
>
>         - baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the
>           Son and of the Holy Spirit -
>
>         and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded
>         you.  And surely I am with you always, to the very end
>         of the age."    -- Matt. 28:18-20 (NIV)

       I do not know if you know this.  If you already know this, please
forgive me for telling you the same thing again.

       This baptism formula was not mentioned in any place other than
Matt. 28:18-20.  This observation has produced different explanations.

                                        Shalom,

                                        Joseph P. Riolo
                                        <riolo@pica.army.mil>
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 10:22:12 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: weather
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              at Apr 16, 92 1:47 pm

>
>   ...
>   moving in your direction.  It's raining in Michigan....wish I
>   could box it up for you, Steve!
>   Carol...raining violets in Michigan!
>
>Last night on the news it was reported that the snow pack up in the mountains
>is 38% of 'normal'.  The fear around here is that it'll all melt at once,
>early in the summer and when July-August-September come along we'll all be
>just a tad thirsty........
>
>Steven
>

You guys.. sigh!!

try living in the driest state in the driest continent.. sigh.. then you
will know what water shortages are like..

Our water quality is so bad that Adelaide is one of only two cities in the
world where ships at port will not take on fresh water...

The Williams household is a prodigious user of either cordial, or spring
water!!

SNOW PACKS!!! Sheeks, what are they??? :-)
heh heh

Happy Easter guys!
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 08:33:50 CST
From:         CXKJP%UTXDP.bitnet@UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject:      RE:abortion
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.

Yes, I'm from a large family, poverty was"all that bad", yes,
my parents abused us, and yes, abuse is very common among large
families as well as small ones. My point about the woman in the
first example was not that we should have abortions because
children "are a drag", but that pregnant women can be facing a
terrible future and instead of shouting at them to change the
laws about abortion we should be assisting them so they can
discover that children are indeed a blessing. If you want these
children to live, lets give them a decent home.

Kim
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 09:16:45 PDT
From:         Doug Gould <5315P@NAVPGS.BITNET>
Subject:      Happy Birthday, Jesus!

What better forum than CHRISTIA for celebrating the Lord's actual
birthday?  I'm sure it's no surprise to most Christians that Dec 25th
is not His actual birthday.  It's my understanding that many Christian
scholars agree He was born some time in the Spring.  I believe the
actual date was April 6th.  So, I thought you might like to join with
me in wishing Him a Happy Birthday.  I do so without wanting to seem
eccentric, or boastful--just wanted to share a feeling that's in my
heart today.

In His Love,

.+++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
| Doug Gould          | Jesus: "Come unto me...my yoke is easy, |
| 5315P@NAVPGS.Bitnet | and my burden is light." Matt. 11:28-30 |
`+++++++++++++++++++++^+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++'
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 11:08:17 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: test

Lonnie:

Regarding your test.  Did I pass?
                                 Love INC,
                                          ---Kerry
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 08:02:07 CDT
From:         Roy Jacobsen <NU021927@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer request for the Church

Dear family in Christ,
     Listen.

     Do you hear it?

     It is our wake up call.

     I believe that for some time now, much of the
Church in America has been asleep.  (Not all.  Many saints, God
bless them, have been wide awake, serving God faithfully.)

     I also believe that there are stirrings.  I've seen it locally
and I've seen it on a national scale.

     Pray that we're not just "turning over in our sleep," but
that we would awaken to our lack of compassion, our lack of
zeal, our sins, and our faithlessness.  There is much work that
we are called to do.

     "Then saith he unto his disciples, "The harvest truly is
plenteous, but the laborers are few; Pray therefore the Lord
of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his
harvest."  Matthew 9:37,38.

ttfn

Roy M. Jacobsen                | "Progress does not create
North Dakota State University  |            victims."
Voice: 701-237-8641            |              -Marty Strange
BITNET: NU021927@NDSUVM1       |
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 12:20:42 PDT
From:         Doug Gould <5315P@NAVPGS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Becky and Mormonism

Hi, Nuzz--

How's my ol' sparring partner (spiritually speaking)?  I'd like to
comment on your post from last night:

>Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:44:00 EST
>From:         The Nuzz <V063KC44@UBVMS.BITNET>
>Subject:      Re: Becky and Mormonism

>dg> I'm also thankful this isn't so, Becky.  I'm am sorry you were told that
>dg> anything outside of the LDS Church would be an abomination to God, because
>dg> it simply isn't so.  There is much that is "virtuous, lovely, or of good
>dg> report or praiseworthy" in other Christian denominations--indeed, in many
>dg> of the other religions of the world.

>tn>        According to the ``authorized'' version of the first vision,
>tn>        Joseph Smith taught, ``...I asked the personages who stood
>tn>        above me in the light, which of all the sects was right,...I
>tn>        was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all
>tn>        wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their
>tn>        creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors
>tn>        were all corrupt,... (_Times and Seasons_, Vol. 3, page 748)

Yes, you're quite right.  Joseph did say "all of their _creeds_" were an
abomination to God; or, more precisely, Joseph quoted God making such
a statement.  That doesn't contradict the 13th Article of Faith which I
quoted to Becky, however.  There _is_ much that is "virtuous, lovely,
or of good report" in other religions--in the good fruits of their
adherents.  IMHO, we have here a perfect example of God loving the
person while finding their creeds--their propensity to draw near to
Him with their lips while their hearts are still far from Him--to
be offensive.  Many practitioners of other religions bear good fruits,
are kind, charitable, and so on.  That was the burden of my comment
to Becky.  The phrase "professors were all corrupt" I take to mean
those who preached or taught the creeds God objected to, not
everything about every person who found himself or herself an
innocent member of those other denominations.

Hope that helps to clarify what I believe.

Peace, and good will,

.+++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
| Doug Gould          | Jesus: "Come unto me...my yoke is easy, |
| 5315P@NAVPGS.Bitnet | and my burden is light." Matt. 11:28-30 |
`+++++++++++++++++++++^+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++'
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Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 18:11:03 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: SOLA SCRIPTURA / TRINITY

To whoever supplied the names of God and Christ:

Thanks for the information.  Now, what about the Holy Spirit?
                                 Just curious.  Love INC,
                                                         ---Kerry
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 03:10:21 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Truth

Darryl:
Sigh.  Again I am confused.  You are Protestant.  Marty is Catholic.  Both
are true.  So what's your point?  Nothing says that they cannot both be true.
They are not oppositional statements.  If you said, however, "I am Catholic"
and "I am Protestant," you would have a good bit of explaining to do, I think.
   Truth is, by definition, that which is true; whether or not it is believed
or popular or even discoverable does not make it any less true.  It seems to
me from some of your previous postings that you are looking at truth and
morality from something of a Jamesian point of view (William James, not the
James in the Bible).  According to James, if there is a sentient being, it
makes all the rules, and it is always right.  When two sentient beings exist,
rules and truth and rightness become a matter of agreement and compromise.
However, the problem James always has in applying this to matters theological
is that the Christian faith insists that the first being maintains its
singularity of rightness by virtue of the fact that it creates the second
consciousness and the second is wholly dependent on the first for its
understandings of reality.  Thus, James's moral relativism falls apart in
a theological system centered around a first-cause God.
  If Truth is sometimes true and sometimes false, then it is not Truth at
all, but opinion (and inconsistent opinion at that!)
                                                    Love INC,
                                                             ---Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:45:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

<miserable is that they are in sin and they know it.  Nonetheless, it
<is easy to observe that many, many gay people are not very happy at all.

Just as many, many hets are not very happy at all.  Sometime, if you're in
Chicago sometime, I can introduce you to several gay men who are quite happy.
Certainly I can introduce you to a plethora of Bisexuals who are happy.

<I have never known a gay person (admittedly, I know more lesbians than
<I do gay men, and I suppose it is theoretically possible that that may
have something to do with it) who was not full of rage, terribly

The Gay men I know who are full of rage, which is not all of them, are so
because of how they are treated in society.  Last week, someone was shot
because he was kissing his boyfriend.  I wonder at anyone who that doesn't
enrage.

In the case of Lesbians, their experience as women have also served to add to
the pyre.

<unhappy with their homosexuality (which they admit in those wee small
<hours when we all tell each other what we REALLY feel), and deeply
<confused.

I can introduce you to several.  Bisexuality is not exactly the same as
Homosexuality, but I am happy in general, and happy and satisfied with my
Bisexuality, and I would not trade it if I could.

Dan
From: S096556@UMRVMA.BITNET (Lonnie Schubert)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Re>Do we exist?
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:01:46 GMT
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              10 Apr 1992 12:27:32 EDT from <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>

Thanks Leo,
You obviously put a lot of effort into that.  I think you were quite
fair to CS & MBE, and about as objective as a human can be.
Again Leo, Thanks,
   Lonnie Schubert
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 12:10:14 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Water Baptism
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Stephenson" at Apr 12, 92 12:25 pm

>
>Ian:
>Thanks for the response, but one thing puzzles me:  did I ask about
>priests?  I don't recall doing so, and it's a question that did not
>occur to me!  (Something weird is going on here; must have been that
>thunderstorm.)
>              Love INC,
>                       ---Kerry
>

Kerry,

I added that question, because it is also important to clarify that issue
when talking about different denominational doctrines on baptism..

Some think that only an 'ordained minister/priest' (what ever they are!)
can baptise..


*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
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Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1992 14:53:00 EDT
From:         NWILSON@SMITH.BITNET
Subject:      Re: help with prayer

JoEllen,
        Welcome! It's good to have to you.
        Concerning prayer, I shared your bewilderment for a long time:
How do they pray so long and so much? Where do they find the time?
        As things occur to me when I am sitting down, I remember to write
them down on a piece of scrap paper and stick it onto my mirror. So when
I pray I just look at the paper and see a name or a situation, and remember
to pray about it.
        God knows your heart, JoEllen, and He knows that you try to pray
for everyone. Try to just pray for as many as possible, and you don't
always have to pray for the person on and on. I find that when I write
names down, and see, say, ten people on the list, I remember that I can't
spend ten minutes rambling on to God about this person.
        James 4:3 says: Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that
ye may consume it upon your lusts." I always try to remember to be specific
and concise in what I ask. That helps me to pray for whatever, and then go
on to the next thing.
        I hope that helps somewhat. I'm no expert on prayer, but I thought
I would just share what I have learned so far.
                                                :-), Nicole
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 12:53:57 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fruit or Act?
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              at Apr 8, 92 10:17 pm

>
>     I have a question:
>
>     Was it the _act_of_disobedience_ brought sin into the
>     world?  Or was it the _fruit_ that did it?
>
>     (I have two questions actually :-) )
>     If it was the act, and not the fruit, then was there
>     actually "life" in the fruit of the Tree of Life?
>
>     Was everything symbolic?
>
>     Vicky
>

Vicky, in my opinion God placed the tree of knowledge in the garden as a test
for mankind.. He could have removed all possibility to sin, but he wants us
to love him out of our own free will..
It was our disobeying of God that was the sin..

Note that as soon as God pronounced judgement on man, he also pronounced
the saviour.. "the seed of the woman would bruise satans head" etc. Symbolic
of satans defeat by Christ..

*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 08:31:00 EDT
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From:         JHART@UMASSD.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Spiritual and physical death

Hi everybody;
        Sorry about that last incomplete message.  I hit the send
key before I was ready.  :-))

>    I have a question:
>    When Adam and Eve sinned, they died a spiritual death.  Was
>    physical death a direct result of the Fall too?  Or were they
>    eventually gonna die anyways?
>
>    In Christ,
>    the list minor
 IMHO the death refered to was the seperation from God.  The
seperation of that close fellowship they had known.  This is why
we hurt when we sin.  God cannot fellowship with us until we make
it right.
        I believe that man would have died physically since he
had not reached the 'tree of life'.  God provided the way and
only when man follows God's way will he have eternal life.

John Hart
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:49:00 CST
From:         "Darryl (The Other Brother) Johnson" <DJOHNSON@TCUCVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Safe Sex #2

From: Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
say that I am!)  All I'm saying is that living in accordance with Biblical
standards is a heck of a lot safer than so-called "safe" sex!
------------------------------------------------------------------
I can agree with that.  The question is, how much is a heck?

I think we can agree that Biblical standards will give you, oh,
98% protection (they won't protect you from bad blood or evil
dentists).

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that condoms & other protection
give you only 75% protection.  It all boils down to whether that
23% is a "heck" or not.  Actually, I would put the Biblical percentage
much lower (BOTH partners have to be upholding those standards, and
this doesn't always happen) and the condom percentages higher.  Either
way, it all depends on how MUCH safety you feel is "safe".

For those who are unwilling or unable to fulfull Biblical standardds,
would you deny them the use of condoms?  As a sort of crowbar to
coerce them into being good?

It shouldn't be surprising that condoms are more popular than chastity.
God made us to be sexually active, not chaste.  I have no problems
with chastity being taught as ONE of the ways of avoiding AIDS.
I DO have a problem with it being taught as the ONLY way, for fear
that when compared with the other options, chastity doesn't look so
hot.  I believe that people should have as many options as possible
for them to choose from, especially when they are deciding something
very important in their lives.  To RESTRICT those options, to MUZZLE
them, to HIDE them in order to make one certain option look good,
as has happened in Federally-funded pregnancy clinics is almost...

......anti-choice.

Darryl at TCU
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 13:13:03 EDT
From:         Saundra=E.=Ketner%RESADM%DFCI%netban2-gw.dfci.harvard.edu
              @HARVJMMY.BITNET
Subject:      re: Question of the day.
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@jimmy.harvard.edu

Andrew-

This is one possibility... according to Jewish folklore, there was a woman who
proceeded Eve in the garden.  According to tradition, she was named Lilith and
wanted to have control, and was thus destroyed.  My boss has mentioned that
not all belief in the myth of Lilith, but many feel it explains why there is a
reprise in chapter 2.
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 00:30:56 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Easter timetable

On Friday 27 March Jeff Shirton posted affirming his belief that Our
Lord was crucified on a Wednesday and rose on Saturday near sunset,
72 hours after His death. His proof-text is Matthew 12:39-40.
I have written him a 200-line reply. Copies on request.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 23:45:37 -0800
From:         dr798302 <whchen@CS.NTHU.EDU.TW>

Hi, Michelle--
 I was reading the bible and had the following verses for you

-----------
Children, obey your parents in this Lord, for this is right.  "Honor
your father and mother."  This is the first commandant with a promise,
"that you may go well with you and that you may have a long life on
earth."  Fathers, do no provoke your children to anger, but bring them
up with the training and instruction of the Lord.
              Eph 6:1-4
------------

Hope that God can answer your prayer so that your family can be
together.  I pray that your father can find the job in a far place
acrossing the pacific ocean.

In His Love,

Allen W. Chen
Taiwan.
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 15:14:00 CST
From:         "Darryl (The Other Brother) Johnson" <DJOHNSON@TCUCVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Who's doing what (Was: Abortion)

From: Kurt Ludwick <KEL111@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Abortion had been illegal for a relatively short span of time in American
history, about 100 years or so.
     That's almost 50% of American history.  How can 50% of something
     be considered a "relatively short" amount?  Relative to itself,
     it is a HUGE amount!

     Darryl at TCU
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:41:00 EDT
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From:         LIZ MOREAU <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tilly

>Liz
>  Did you ask about "Tilly"?  It is about a little girl in
>heaven - I guess- who was aborted. She continued to grow and
>is 7 during the story.

I've only heard the last half when they did it on radio.

> It raised all sorts of questions for me
>about miscarriages, and if these babies  ( if you call them
>that) go to heaven.

Personally, I'd call a miscarried child a baby.  We talked about this
awhile back.  Some like me feel these children do go to heaven and
some don't.

> Do we continue to age in heaven? I read
>the story of a woman who died for 28 minutes and went to heaven
>She said she saw children.

For adults, I don't think so.  Since heaven is for eternity, I can't
imagine being 100,000,000 years old!!!!  For the children, I'm not
sure what age they would be or stay.  I feel that our time is not
God's time and age won't really be an issue (my opinions only).

                                        Liz
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