From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (Old) Question for Rob Levene
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:10:42 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University


Bruce Tiffany writes:

>>> non-Orthodox) Jews into "converting" to Christianity.  Now he's saying
>>> he favors Messianics wearing tzitzit with blue threads (you'll see plenty
>>> such tzitzit at my congregation!).  Could it be that he's tacitly admitting
>>> that Messianic Jews are indeed Jews -- indeed JEWISH -- and that there's is
>>> a true Jewish expression??
>> 
>> <pregnant pause>  Could it be that wearing the blue thread makes
>>                   you guys easier to spot in a crowd??
>
>You didn't answer the question.  Now that you've had your pregnant pause, are
>you admitting that Messianic Jews are Jews, and JEWISH?

Perhaps you've been taking logic courses from Harvey Smith, or
mind-reading from Uri Geller, because I don't know how you're making
those deductions.  I never said that wearing tzitzis makes one Jewish.
What I meant was that I favor Messianics[sic] voluntarily adopting
practices which make them appear distinctive.  That makes it harder
for them to maintain their facade of practicing Judaism and "pass" 
in regions where blue tzitzis are rare.


>>> [Are you] willing to concede that it is an
>>> entirely JEWISH view to believe the scripture passages discussed
>>> earlier are referring to the Messiah (even if you don't happen to
>>> believe Yeshua is the Messiah)?
>> 
>> Perhaps there's a daas yachid which held that way, but it isn't
>> the accepted pshat among rov meforshim.
>
>Again, you failed to answer.  Maybe you're squirming because it's becoming
>obvious how untenable your position has been all this time.  So, I ask you
>again:
>
>Are *YOU* willing to concede that it is an entirely JEWISH view to believe
>the scripture passages discussed earlier are referring to the Messiah (even
>if you don't happen to believe Yeshua is the Messiah)?

Your typical Christian fundamentalist theological perspective makes it
difficult for you to accept the idea of accepted pshat [simple
understanding] versus rejected pshat and drush.  The idea of "entirely
JEWISH view" doesn't make sense.  If you look hard enough, you can
probably find fifty interpretations on each verse, and an aggada or
two.  But what counts is how widely accepted the interpretation is
among those whose greatness in Torah learning is acknowledged.  The
idea that Is 53 refers to a future messiah is not the accepted view.

L'havdil, you can probably find a number of Democrats who sympathize
completely with Operation Rescue, but you can't call their position an
"entirely DEMOCRAT PARTY view" since few who define party policy hold
that belief.

Of course, sages frequently make drashos on verses.  Maimonides himself
suggests that the prophecy in Daniel *does* refer to Jesus.

That is, Daniel 11:14.  (:-)

>> Also, I haven't seen any comments from Messianics on Maccoby's
>> book on Paul as mythmaker.  Nu?
>
> A book I have never read, and never will read, and will thus never be
> commenting on.  And this has nothing to do with answering my question.

My turn:

Again, you failed to answer.  Maybe you're squirming because it's
becoming obvious how untenable your position has been all this time.
So, I ask you again: why won't you read Prof. Maccoby's book?  He 
presents a very favorable portrayal of Jesus.

Rob
Newsgroups: alt.messianic