From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: EVIL and "dualism"
Date: Thu,  1 Oct 92 13:32:04 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

9210.01 e.v.


Sean McNair writes:

The concept of evil can most easily be defined by sin. Sin, is quite 
simply defined by Aquinas, not knowing one's proper place on the order/chaos 
continuum. 


Response:

One might generally equate this with 'ignorance' and achieve a very nice
Christian/Buddhist marriage.  I note the creeping in here of 'propriety'
and caution accordingly.


Sean:

The continuum, as defined by Aquinas, is something like this:


       Order(god)---------------------------------------------Chaos

As one traverses towards order, one becomes more god like, as one traverses 
towards Chaos, one becomes less ordered, less being, if you will. 


Response:

You (or Aquinas) forgot the personification of Chaos here.  I think that
this would be, in traditional Christian mythology, Satan, as you bring
up later.  If we are 'traversing toward order', then were we born of
Chaos?  I tend to think so.


Sean:

(Taoists 
see this as a circle, rather than a straight line. The Tao symbol correctly 
equates absolute chaos with absolute order, thus resolving the true duality 
as you were mistakenly taking about in terms of good and evil.)


Response:

Really, now?  *Which* Taoists, exactly?  I was not aware that the literati
philosophers had reached a consensus.  Certainly the common folk religion
often portrays this in terms of a linear model, no?
    

Sean:

Sin, or evil, is the belief that one should become more godlike, or even 
displace god (or gods, as you would have it.) This is Satan's mistake. (See 
Paradise Lost for a good understanding of where Satan fits on the continuum.)


Response:

I am woefully ignorant of classical Western literature and have not yet
read _Paradise Lost_.  I thought Satan's 'mistake' was simply resisting
God's Will that he (Satan) submit and begin to worship Adam.
For not being God's slave-slug Satan got the Hot-Slide.  No?  Then again,
I've been told another version of this story in which Satan is really
God's Butt, doing the 'dirty-work'.  What say?  When we banished our
butts to the toilet dark did God banish Satan to the Vanish?
    

Sean:

In Magick, it really depends on your goals. If one wishes to become 
closer to god (kether) one must be a fit container to accept God. The 
Sephiroth on the tree of life are aspects of the divinity. Understanding and 
allowing these manifestations to come into the self means that one must be 
humble, at least in spirit. 


Response:

Humility flies in the face of wishing to come to be closer to God, no?
I mean, to really be humble would be to reject this God as MUCH TO HIGH
to want to use YOU for a container, don't you think?

And what does it mean to be 'humble in spirit'?  Is there some difference
between 'humility of spirit' and 'humility of flesh'?  Does this mean that
I can still practice prostitution and be used by God as His 'container'?


Sean:

This is not to say that one cannot exercise 
power over another, through, for example Hod. But this would necessarily 
mean overstepping ones bounds, and entering into a sinful state, playing 
god, as it were. 


Response:

Really?  Are you suggesting here that God exercises His power over others?
Or do you have something more nondualistic in mind?  In other words, DOES
God manipulate and control us that we might 'play at' this activity?


Sean:

In order to practice magick in a state of sinlessness, one 
must be as follows:

                        God                           God
                        +++                           +++
perfect state           ---            usual state    +++
(graceful and           Man            (sinful)       Man
blessed)                +++                           ---
                        ---                           --- 
                        Nature                        Nature 

God, the divinity, is positive(for lack of a better word.) Man, in his best 
state, is negative, i.e., accepting and humble. This allows man (as 
positive, Works) to perform works of Art (magick) on nature. (miracles, 
etc.) Christ and Moses, some say, were exposed to the Merkabah mysteries.


Response:

Fascinating, simply fascinating.  In this example you seem to be saying
that God, in his BEST state, is NONaccepting and arrogant.  That would fit
with some accounts of Jehovah, but I doubt you mean that here.

Why the distinction between God and Nature here?  Are you simply a traditional
Christian who hasn't seen the value of the Taoist vision your describe,
or do you in any way follow this intellectual model?  Perhaps you are
relaying what you know of Christian mythology?

Note the 'state of grace' and how interpenetrating it is.  I think it
is very suggestive and symbolic.  Isn't Nature where Hell is supposed to
be?  Are we living in Hell?  Isn't Satan the opposing pole to God in
this schema rather than Nature?  Does this mean that Satan is more
related to Nature than is God?

The way you say 'perform works of Art (magick) _on_ nature' (my emph.) it
sounds like rape.  Does Nature WISH to have works performed on Her?

What are the 'Merkebah Mysteries'?


Sean:

Pride will get you nowhere!


Response:

What is this supposed to mean?  'Pride goeth before the Fall'?  Starhawk
defined pride as 'the joy of strength'.  Will pride of THIS sort get
us somewhere?  Is there anywhere we WANT to get?  Isn't now/here pretty
neat?  Who is this 'God' person anyway?  ;>


Thyagi
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Most Christians haven't thought out the details.  I find it
quite intriguing like to see if I can learn more about the symbology.