HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Paul
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 20:33:58 GMT

creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
>bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow) writes:
>>Yes, but is it "male" that is the critical aspect of the person of
>>Christ in this context?
>>  [some of my text deleted]
>
  [Steve's stuff follows]
>There are certain qualities that one normally associates with men, and
>other qualities that one normally associates with women.  I do not
>believe these to be merely socially-ingrained nor caused by one's
>physical sex, but rather put by God into one's soul.

You have not substantiated anything here.  Who normally associates?
It is a cop-out to just say that God put it into one's soul.  You could
make any rules you want and then use the same reasoning. I don't buy it.

>
> [some of Steve's text deleted]
>   St. Paul wrote about the various roles, saying that not all were
>called to every role.  One may say St. Paul was full of you know what,
>but to do so is to reject the authoritative teaching of the Church
>that Scripture is inspired and inerrant.

There you go using the big stick of heresy again.  This really bothers
me because I don't see anything heretical in what I am talking about.
Certainly scriptures are inspired, so is a great painting, but that
doesn't make it exactly the accurate in all details.  And inerrant in
the ideas of faith and morals that it is trying to get across, not 
liturgical rules.  Otherwise we would be following a seder.

Back off this heresy stuff please.  What we are trying to do here is
discern what aspects are to be treated as exactly correct.

And while I'm at it, both you and Eric should be ashamed of yourselves
for being so harse on someone differentiating between a VIEW of God
as seen in the OT and the VIEW (although he didn't use those words it
seemed obvious to me what he meant) of God we get in the NT.  I think
Eric has a point that his first paragraph was a non-sequitor but I do
agree with the posters last paragraph.  Stop worrying about damnation and
heresy and start talking about the gospel,  the good news remember
that?  The good news is all about love.

Don't you think that mankind continues to learn about God thru the
Holy Spirit?  Our view changes, hopefully with a clearer picture, over
time.  I don't think that process stopped 2000 years ago.

You talk of defending the church.  We are not attacking it.  We are
just trying to find the most loving approach to assorted things.  If
we were saying the Pope was evil or that religion was a sham, that
would be an attack.  Don't you think we care deeply about the RC
church????????

Peace, please peace,

Bob
--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Altar girls and all that
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 09:29:50 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:

> On Oct 9, 11:55pm, "(Michael M Gorman Jr)" wrote:
> } Subject: altar girls and all that
> }
> } Comment 1.  There's clearly a difference between being in the stable
> } ministry of lector and being called in to do it as a temporary deputy,
> } and likewise for acolyte.
> }
> } Comment 2.  Is acolyte the same thing as altar server?
>
>       Basically, yes.

Basically, no,  Acolyte is one of the lesser degrees on the
path to ordination.  The vast majority of altar boys are not seminarians, nor
will they be involved in that process.  To compare an acolyte to an altar boy
is misleading.

> }
> } Comment 3.  If the answer to #2 is yes, then it would seem that women
> } can't be installed as permanent altar servers, but that they can be
> } deputized to do it now and then--one could argue for this by saying
> } that the way for it is left open by saying that lay persons can
> } perform "other functions".
>
>       No.  You forgot about the 'according to the norms of law' part.

Hmmm...yet a woman can distribute the Hosts at Communion as an Extraordinary
Minister, 'according to the norms of law.'  Given this, why can't a girl handle
the cruets, a water bowl, and a towel?




|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:16:25 -0500
From:         "(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Altar girls and millstones

Dave Jensing writes:

>Your weak arguments are made even weaker by your insistance of this
>paragraph.  If you wish to follow the Old Testament God, the God of
>punishment and anger, then do so in your own space and time.  Don't inflict
>it on me or the Church.  We are Catholics and Christians.  This means we
>follow the message of Christ!  This is a message of Love and Forgiveness,
>not of punishments for "direct defiances" and "disobeying."  And if you are
>so up on Church Law, let me ask you this:  Can women be appointed as
>Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist?

Dave,

Again I must disagree with you one a particularly important point your
are trying to make.  That is the notion of an Old Testament and a New Testament
God.   There is one God (God is One !).

The gospel and other New Testament writings go to great lengths to
should the New Convenent that Jesus has established is the fulfillment
or Old Testament prophecies.

You are correct that the message of Christ is Love and Foregiveness.
But the whole Old Testament points to God's Love and Foregiveness
in His promise of a Redeemer !

You are incorrect in saying that Christ's message did NOT include
warnings of punishment 'for "direct defiances" and "disobeying."'
Did not Christ tell the Apostles that the cities who rejected them
would not fare as well as Sodom and Gomorah ?
Did He not say "Then He will say to those on His left, 'Out of my
sight you condemned, into that eternal fire prepared for the devil
and his angels'" ?

No, there is only one God, both loving and just.
You criticize one person for their focus on one aspect while you
seem to focus only on the other.

Joel Neisen				 joel@msc.edu
Minnesota Supercomputer Center		"Mock not the worn cloak"
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From: edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:11:02 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

"(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:

>	It's quite true that someone being homosexual doesn't mean they
>are promiscuous.  The Church does not condemn a homosexual tendency or
>sexual preference; the Church condemns homosexual acts.  While I would
>agree that, for many homosexuals (though not necessarily all) their
>sexual preference is not a choice, surely you don't think that their
>acts are not their choice?  If I as an unmarried (heterosexual) male
>am called to be celibate, why should an unmarried (homosexual) male
>*not* be called to be celibate?  The Church's rule is the same --
>sex outside of marriage is sinful.  This applies to homosexuality
>or heterosexuality.

While I agree with you that homosexuality is not a choice, it is biological,
I can't quite bring myself to see eye-to-eye with the Doctrine of
Homosexuality.  If it is biological, this means that it is part of the plan
of God, God created these people with their specific color hair, specific
color eyes, and yes, with their sexual orientation.  Isn't it ridiculous to
say to a person, we accept you for who you are (that being homosexual) but
we ask you to deny those basic human urges (that being sexuality) that you
have instinctively (because you are born with your orientation).  This is
the greatest argument FOR homosexual unions.  If we wish to support the
gay/lesbian/bisexual communities, we ought to show them examples of healthy
sexual relationships with a monogamous partner.  We ought to support them. 
But so often it is the case that the g/l/b community is simply bashed,
mistreated, abused, or murdered simply because of who they are (created by
God)!  In this particular ministry, I think the Church has been entirely too
negligent.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Jansing |  University of Louisville  | Department of Electrical Engineering
                Internet:  edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let all guests be treated as Christ himself, and just so, for many an angel as
been entertained unaware . . . But if a guest overstay his welcome, let two of
the stout monks take him to the gate and explain the matter to him.
-- Adapted from the _Rule of St. Benedict_
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:	The opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not
		necessarily reflect those of the Department of Electrical
		Engineering or any other department within the University
		of Louisville.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Homosexuality
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 21:44:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.014157.8966@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
>In article <199210072238.AA01362@caritas.cotdazr.org> "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:
>
>Well, they don't say that the tendency/preference per se is _sinful_;
>but Cardinal Ratzinger has written that homosexual tendencies are the
>"sign of an objective disorder."  (sorry, the quote is 2nd hand...I
>don't know where he wrote that. It was attributed to him in The New
>Republic).
>
>It's hard to tell exactly what he means by "sign of an objective
>disorder," but that sounds to me like a euphemism for "they're all
>sickos."
>
My temptation to lust after my neighbor's wife is the sign of an objective
disorder.  I think we call it Original Sin.  Notice I did not say
my lusting after my neighbor's wife, just my temptation.  In this
context perhaps it is inappropriate to say "they're all sickos," but
rather more appropriate "we're all sickos."

Peace,
John


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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 14:41:00 -0500
From:         Tim Rolfe <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU>
Subject:      Latin nostalgia <as Re. Alter girls ...>

In <4eqMTvC_NU00MCsPVt@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com> Eric James Ewanco
 <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM> writes:

>Excerpts from catholic: 9-Oct-92 Re: Altar girls and millstones
>waldbill1981@ISCSVAX.UNI (7337)

[... now that we've identified authors, this ends:  ]

>> In Pax et Veritas Christi,
      ^^^    ^^^^^^^           Need ablatives:
   In Pace et Veritate Christi

>> Brian T. Waldbillig
>> Petrus Romanus

>In nomine Patri, Filii, et Spiriti Sancti,
           ^^^^^            ^^^^^^^          Wrong declensions
 In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritui Sancti

>Eric

Actually Eric comes appreciably closer than Brian to using Latin correctly,
but still no cigar.  Of course in the body of the posting Brian is the one
advocating the Latin.
--
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:37:10 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: English translation
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> "Re: English translation" (Oct 15,
              12:05pm)

Brian, Are you forgetting that our phrase in the BCP is "The Word of
the Lord", said as an exultation rather than an explanation.

Len Howard
tas@pegasus.com
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From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: English translation
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:34:49 GMT

In article <9210152209.AA10076@mayo.cs.utk.edu> mayo@CS.UTK.EDU writes:
>As a side note, please be slow in condemning Newman centers.  The John XXIII
>Center at the University of Tennessee is a model of orthodoxy.  Now and then
>I go to the 5:15 weekday Mass, and I *know* I have been to Church!  Perhaps
>since there are so few Catholics in East Tenn., God has seen fit to bless us
>with good priests and a spirit-filled bishop.  My heart aches when I read
>what goes on elsewhere.

   You wouldn't happen to be in the Diocese of Memphis, would you?
If so, that is good news for me, because our new Archbishop of
Indianapolis is the former Bishop of Memphis.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 11:44:10 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Altar girls and millstones

On Oct 9,  3:24pm, "(David Jansing)" wrote:
} Subject: Re: Altar girls and millstones
} >You ask if altar girls are against the rules.  Yes, they are.
} >Someone else on the list recently said that he could provide documen-
} >tation proving this fact.
}
} Then I say, "Put up, or shut up!"
}
} >I have seen statements that there are theological reasons against the
} >use of altar girls, but I have been able to study those arguments.
} >Therefore, I am prescinding from that question and treating the
} >prohibition of altar girls only as a matter of Church law.  If you
} >consider the example of the vernacular in my first paragraph you will
} >see that your posted questions miss the point.
}
} Once again, share these theological reasons, their sources, and their
} agreement with Rome with the rest of us.  Again, "Put up, or shut up."
}-- End of excerpt from "(David Jansing)"

	Okay, here's putting up.  You will now shut up?  I don't think
so.... but that's okay, it's what the list is about.

	"18. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform
in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and
proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful.  Women are
not, however, permitted to act as altar servers."

			-- Inaestimabile Donam
			   "Instruction Concerning Worship of the
			   Eucharistic Mystery"  4/17/80

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
It is better to wear out than to rust out.
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 09:23:21 -0500
From:         p_burke@RIKER.CCA.CR.ROCKWELL.COM
Subject:      Re: Stay or leave....

Donna,

My three points of suggestion would be

1) See a priest.  Not just any priest, but one that is very strong in his
   commitment to the RCC, is VERY dedicated to the Eucharist, and has a
   strong devotion to Mary.

2) Study the reasons behind why the church believes what it does.  And
   remember there are things that the church says are good but are not
   required to believe, and those that she says you must believe.

3) The third thing I would recommend would be to pray the rosary
   and attend daily mass.

In my growth with Jesus, I have truly come to KNOW that the RCC is THE
ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE EARTH.  And I say that without any doubt.  I would
recommend a book called "Theology for Beginners" (I can't remember who it's
by, but if you want more info let me know).

The third thing I would recommend would be to pray the rosary and attend
daily mass.

I hope and pray that your walk with Jesus is great.

Pat Burke
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Ratzinger (was: Homosexuality)
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 23:09:44 GMT

In article <1992Oct11.221522.19032@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
>In article <Bvyy7p.26w@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
>Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Given Ratzinger's past as an honored member
>of the Hitler Youth, I don't think it's unreasonable to attribute
>such a opinion to him; and I think it's important to understand the
>biases of the people purporting to advise the Pope in moral matters.


 Do you have any proof of such a nasty claim, or are you repeating the sort
of guilt by association that MaCarthy engaged in.  "Well he was a youth in
Germany in the thirties, and all Germans were members of the Nazi party
or the Hitler youth, weren't they?"  Of course not.  This is such a nasty
insinuation that one ought not repeat it without the sort of proof that
stands up in court.  It is not rhetorical, it is not kidding, it is down
right nasty.  Ever since I first heard this insinuation, I have been waiting
to see documented evidence, i.e. some sort of membership list dating from the
time the authenticity of which is not in question.  The abscence of such
evidence leads me to believe that it is a smear campaign against this man
from people who disagree with him, and for others to repeat it without proof
is uncharitable and may well be bearing false witness.

Even if such proof could be supplied, which I doubt, what should we make of
such a fact.  If he is presently 62, that would mean he was between 3 and 15
while Hitler was in power.  Those who throw up such facts ought to ask themselves whether they would have been so saintly between the ages 0f 2 and 15 as to
resist the pressure to join the Hitler youth, were they there.  To bring      
such things up here is just downright nasty.
John O'Callaghan


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From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: RCIA, heresies, mortal sin
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 19:24:12 GMT


>Our parish is what I would term extremely liberal. How can
>I find out what "should" be in a mass, and compare that to
>what comprises our mass?
>
Simple. Get a Sacramentary (large red book used by priest at Mass) and open to 
the "General Instruction on the Roman Missal" at the beginning of the book. You
will be amazed!

Peace.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: 15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr)
Subject: Re: Ratzinger (was: Homosexuality)
Organization: University of Delaware
 (a) Ratzinger was considered back in the time of Vatican II
 to be a 'liberal' like Kung, Congar, Rahner, et al. (b) He
 has been the most tolerant occupant of his office ever
 probably. He has disciplined very few theologians, and 
 when he has it has been with the lightest censures. To
 take one example : Hans Kung. Kung has openly denied several
 defined dogmas of the faith, in full knowledge that they were
 such. That is heresy. In the past he would probably have been
 excommunicated. Ratzinger could have done that, or imposed
 a variety of lesser penalties such as laicization. He merely
 declared him to no longer a Catholic theologian, and withdrew
 his canonical mission to teach. How gentle can you get?!
 (c) Ratzinger is a highly respected scholar and theologian
 in his own right. His approach has been to reason with and
 try to influence wayward theologians through constructive
 criticism and positive statements of the Church's teachings
 rather than deal with them punitively. (d) People who know
 him personally say he is very gentle, mild, and not at all
 like the venomous characterizations of him as the 'Panzerkar-
 dinal' in hostile media. 
   Liberals should love this man. He is a profound, scolarly
 man who engages dissident theologians with patience, and
 understanding. He is being condemned without being listened to,
 precisely what he is being criticized for suppodedly doing.
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:29:09 GMT

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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 10:52:54 -0400
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject: Re: Stay or leave....

TO: "()" <dmczap@WOOKIE.CAMBRIDGE.IBM.COM>
Subject:      Stay or leave....

I tried to send you a personal response but it bounced.  Would you please
send me your e-mail address?  Thank you.

Jane Wallace Mayo
mayo@cs.utk.edu
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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 18:09:35 -0400
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      Re: English translation

According to the loving, orthodox, Catholic-through-and-through pastor of
Sacred Heart Cathedral in Knoxville, Tennessee, the change at the end of
the readings is partially to end confusion.  He says that often the reader
holds up the book after the reading, and the people think the phrase,
"This is the Word of the Lord" refers to the book itself rather than the
proclaimed Word.  This man is a holy priest and I trust him.  Nonetheless,
I would prefer that the reader stop holding up the book and leave the words
alone.

As a side note, please be slow in condemning Newman centers.  The John XXIII
Center at the University of Tennessee is a model of orthodoxy.  Now and then
I go to the 5:15 weekday Mass, and I *know* I have been to Church!  Perhaps
since there are so few Catholics in East Tenn., God has seen fit to bless us
with good priests and a spirit-filled bishop.  My heart aches when I read
what goes on elsewhere.

J. Wallace Mayo
mayo@cs.utk.edu
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From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Re: English translation
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:29:02 GMT

kschudt@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Karl C Schudt) writes:

>     Im glad that you are so lucky! The Newman Center at Ohio State might
>as well be a protestant prayer meeting. Even my not-so-orthodox-as-me
>sister-in-law quit going there, after she heard "Glory to God in the highest,
>
 [ text deleted]

>Karl Schudt O.R.C.
>(Orthodox Roman Catholic)

Amazing!  I again find this to be Protestant bashing.  Is there something
wrong with protestant prayer meetings?  Are they not good people trying 
their best to know God?

This is not what I think Catholicism is, nor should be, all about.  Here is
somebody trying to be more loving toward women, and he gets criticised for
it -- and protestants take a shot in the process.

And Eric, shouting heresy before investigating the facts (provided by Steve 
[thank you]).

Amazing.  Can't you see what is happening here?  The church is moving, and 
that change apparently has a lot of you very upset.  I see it as the Holy
Spirit at work.

You are fighting about words, and words are not what we are going to be
recoginzed or judged by.

It's not "see how they never changed the liturgy" but "see how they love 
one another".  The Mass is there to support us, not the other way around.

Bob
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