HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Another Crowley question
Distribution: world
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:38:37 PDT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS - Medford, Oregon

In a message dated Thu 27 Aug 92  5:14, mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert
McGrath) wrote:

|> The definition you are using to describe behavior is based on a specific
|> socially engrained "moral" code which uses Christianity as its "ideal"
|> model.  I simply, do not agree, or make judgements on people based on
|> anything other than my experience with them.  I don't like sheep
mentality.

 RM> Now I'm REALLY mad.  First you call me a fundamentalist, now
 RM> you are calling me a christian and a sheep.  This is total and 
 RM> complete BS, as I have absolutely no use for Christianity or its 
 RM> moral code, and I formed my own opinion based on limited data. 

I have re-read the messages and I NEVER called you ANY of these things. 
Like I have said in my last message:  perhaps the reason you take offense
in the first place is that "the shoe fits".  You are emotionally involved
with this debate, and you are reading into it what ever will justify your
defense.

|> Once again.  I don't feel that the life he lived has anything to do with
|> the system he left behind.

 RM> I haven't said ANYTHING AT ALL about Crowley's writings or his
"system".
 RM> ALL I said was that, so far as I can tell, he was a miserable excuse
for
 RM> a human being.  

And I agree. 

 RM> I get the distinct impression that you are an enthusiastic apologist
 RM> for AC.  I draw no conclusion from that hypothesis other than to
 RM> infer that there is little point in arguing with you about AC,
 RM> as you are taking it personally and I'm not.

Not quite.  I think he was somewhat of an asshole, and we probably would
not have gotten along very well.

|> If you percieved my post as a flame, I apologize; it was not my
intention
|> to insult.

 RM> If you want to avoid insulting me, don't EVER call me a christian
 RM> again.  And you might omit references to how I'm acting like
 RM> a sheep.

As far as I'm concerned the debate is over.  I will no longer coment on
this, as it has gotten way out of hand already.

Love is the Law.
Gerald

-- Via DLG Pro v0.992

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: n8940681@henson.cc.wwu.edu (R)
Subject: a poem 
Summary: just a poem (parody)
Keywords: poem
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:57:41 GMT


The fart that was let by a fake

I am the coughing and wheezing, yet kind
Little old blind man, leading the blind.
Come now all ye children, come all, take a part
In the muffled and holy ineffable fart.
Come now all ye children and seal up your fate
As I tell ye stories of how to be great!
Sacrifice daily your freedom to me
For only when burdened may morons be free!
Ah me! I'm a scoundrel, a ratty old Tom
And everyone hates me, why, even my mom.
Be still and I'll tell you now how to surprize
The glorious public by making up lies.
Behold! I have power quite great it would seem,
When I am enthralled in an opium dream!
Behold! Now I'm writing and I criticize
All people who seek only truth, never lies.
Oh critics who catalogue mine every quirk
Critique ye my person, but never my Work!
And if you should fail this, I'll unzip my fly
And I'll pee on your tie, and I'll pee on your tie!



(If you cant laugh at something, you dont really understand it.)
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Necromancy
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 07:27:16 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

I'd like to see the responses right here in alt.magick.

Thyagi
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Subject: Re: Amen <was: Re: AGLA>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:17:52 GMT

In article <Btw24G.8uA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>dart@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Dartanyan the Witchling) writes:
>>In article <JOSHUA.92Aug28170950@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
>>>In article <J1J8PB1w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill
>>>Eichman) writes:
>>>>   Anyone have any opinions of the jewish use of 'amen'?
>>>
>>>it's an old semitic word. it's in arabic as well as hebrew. the christians,
>>>in fact, borrowed it from the jews (muslims use it too; at least they came
>>>by it honestly).
>
>>	I remember my Fater telling me, way back when I was a christian, that
>>it meant "Let it be so."
>>	If this is true, it would be humourous in it's similarity to the 
>>wiccan and Magical "So Mote It Be"
>
>Wicca and Ceremonial Magic get the phrase "So mote it be" from Masonry.  Guess
>where Masonry comes from--Christianity.  Make sense now?

Ummm...  There is a good case for saying that Masonry is the result of
a variety of (pre-christian) hermetic influences, and the influence of the
entire complex of judeo-christian-moslem ideas, and a few ideas odder 
than that.  

It's like arguing that, because the first democratic revolution was insti-
gated by upper-class anglos, that this means that democracy comes from
english middle class culture.  The argument can be made (magna carta, 
what have you...) but it's kind of shaky...  A lot of cultural influences
were involved.
 
-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: herbal freedom
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 03:34:21 GMT

dgd@csd.bu.edu (David Durand) writes:

>In article <BtM9AE.3n7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

>> Well, I've discussed this in the past with a friend of mine who is an
>> herbalist and is All But Dissertation on a PhD in Family and Consumer
>> Economics.  The law restricting claims on packaging is part of a whole
>> effort to make food labeling more accurate.  She has been working for
>> years to get this law passed.  It does prevent manufacturers from
>> claiming that herbs have particular benefits on the packaging, but it
>> does not restrict the sale of the herbs at all.  The only limit the
>> FDA is putting on things is what can be claimed on a label.  Please
>> note that these substances are being sold as *foods* not as *drugs*.
>> They have none of the restrictions or protections on them that drugs
>> have.
>   Unfortunately this is _not_ how the FDA is attempting to apply this
>law. They have already stsrted seizing herbal and nutritional
>preparations using this law as justification. You can get more info on
>this in alt.drugs (and no doubt elsewhere). The problem is that the
>seizures authorized by the law are still performed based on
>administrative guidelines set by the FDA, whose goal is to remove
>these from the market. Note that the selling of books on "herbal
>medicine" at a store that sells herbs is defined by the FDA as
>"advertising".

What products have been seized?  Are they products which purport to address
specific problems?  I, personally, would love it if it was possible to find
decent combinations already prepared, but I have seen much more quackery than
honesty out there.  I have settled for buying individual ingredients and
combining myself.  More time-consuming, but cheaper and more dependable.  If
there were dependable lines out there, I might be a little bothered by the FDA's
action, but everything I've seen causes me to cheer them on.  Now, if they can
only get all food packaging to be consistent and honest, we'll be getting 
somewhere.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Organization: Freshman, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:55:55 -0400 
From: Shawn Clayton Knight <knightster+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unicursal Hexagram
	<26AUG199222093745@zeus.tamu.edu>

the large Thoth deck was bought for me by a friend.  it has Big cards. 
The standard major and minor arcana, but 2 extras - the blank card and
the "Crowley card", which apparently wasn't released in the (older?)
small version of the deck.

it is totally black, no border, only the large red unicursal hexagram
set with what seems to be a 5-petaled flower.

-shawn
 
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:42:07 -0400 
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Education
	<BtJLLJ.48x@acsu.buffalo.edu>

Peggy writes-
>In computer labs with 40 students I cannot bail out everyone, so 
>I ask the ones who know what they're doing to HELP.  They seem to 
>LIKE HELPING.  In fact, they seem to LIKE HELPING VERY MUCH.


    I actually think this could be one of the best ways to teach in
general. In MY experience, when you explain something to someone who
doesn't understand, it often makes YOU understand it better.
Essentially, you have to focus on what you know, and simplify,
correlate, etc. This is self-teaching.
    Also, it's usually better for someone who just learned something to
explain things. A teacher who learned it a while ago might be blinded by
'obvious' things. (It's hard to explain what appears obvious to you)
Also, kids can usually relate better to other kids. (though not always)
    So, experienced kids teaching inexperienced helps both groups. The
experienced gain a better grasp on what they knew, and the inexperienced
learn things at a decent rate. Also, inexperienced kids may ask
questions the experienced ones never thought of, in which case the
teacher can teach BOTH.

    This type of interaction is, I think, vital to learning. Another
vital point is to learn AS YOU USE things. ie- Basic computing is best
learned as you use applications. When your mind is trying to accomplish
something, it assimilates information better than if it is simply trying
to absorb information.
    So, for non-directly usable learning, construct experiments or
creative activities that engage students. Keep rote to a minimum. Answer
questions AS things happen.

This is all my opinion. The conclusions and advice is not based on
formal studies, but my life experiences and troubles with educational
systems. Take it as you wish...


-Me
[Pooh Bear incarnate.]
<B1 c+ f+ w g+ k+ s+ r- e+ p>
From: JBrandt@AAA.UOregon.EDU (Pegasus)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Tactile Kinetic (Was RE: Shields)
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:15:11 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon, Architecture

RE: Those who are tactile kinetic. Hello out there!

   Being a tactile kinetic, the best way I have come up with is to use the
analogy of being physically blind and maybe deaf as well.  The reaction I
get when I try to explain this to anyone who is not is one of disbelief
that you are. They cannot conceive of the idea that you can not see and or
hear. They think you are joking.

   The problems I have run into is having to be dependent on other people
for information of what is going on around me.  The problem here with this
is that those you have to trust for accurate information may not always
give it to you for a number of very good reasons such as: 

A. They do not want to be bothered, 
   1. they are too tired.
   2. they are not interested in what is happening to you, 
      because it does not affect them directly.
   3. they can not see any better then you, but do not want
      you to know and so the information you may get is 
      unreliable at best.
   4. they will distort it to make themselves seem more 
      important, knowing full well that you do not have a 
      way of checking the veracity of their statements.

B. Because they know that you are dependent on them
   for this information 
   1. they will not give you enough to act on by yourself
      and must need their help.
   2. they will out right lie to you under the rubric 
      Rto protect you, poor baby, here let me do it for youS
      projecting the image of the knight in shining armour,
      this patronizing attitude seems to be true of my 
      experience with men who have been my eyes and ears,
      see also A 4 above.
   3. they will manipulate and control you, this is can be
      a greater problem if you are a woman.

   I wonder if being tactical kinetic was a major attribute of the medieval
witch, she needed her familiar, as much as the modern physically blind
person is dependent of a seeing eye dog for similar reasons.  If that is
the case, is there anyone out there from a FamTrad who is willing to share
this information on how to successfully train such a helper?  This will
give us a modicum of independence.

   But we need more then being wrapped up behind adamantine shields, like
frightened rabbits in their warrens, if we are to be able to grow and
develop our full potential.  There is a need to learn why some are tactical
kinetic and others are not.  We need to develop the equivalent of glasses
and hearing aids as well as effective training methods for using the senses
we have.

Pegasus
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: spb0457@zeus.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Subject: Re: Magic/magick/midget/maggot???
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 19:47:00 GMT

(.GJEST) writes...
>Someone please tell me; whats the difference between 'magic' and 'magick'?
>G.H.		

+----------------------------------------SubG---------------------------------+
RTFM.

That being said:
Although I've heard endless hours of bloviating over the difference, the 
operable variation seems to my mind to be that you usually get laid when
you're practicing magick.


The extra "K" is a throwback to the wayback days.  Mankind used to have no
rules for spelling and grammar.  Look at, say, Chaucer:

	As verily as the pox doth kylle and the sonne doth shyne,
	Canst thou surely phuque both thee and thyne.

Awful!  In 1775, Dr. Sam Johnson published the first Dictionary of
the English Language.  It was greeted with extreme enthusiasm, and was used
exclusively for looking up the definitions of dirty words.

Thus, by the time that Al Crowley and that lot started writing their great
leather volumes, everyone REALLY THOUGHT that the way to spell the word
"magic" was with a "k."

When the word processor was discovered and the first spell-checker (heh)
found in an old steamer trunk in an attic in Bath and Wells, the publishers
were completely abashed.  To save face, they hit upon the cunning
plan of pretending like they REALLY WANTED to spell it that way all along.
This they did.



Hope this clears everything up.






Obfuscatorily,
Yours etc.,





SubGenius

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: AGLA
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
	<J1J8PB1w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us>
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 01:09:50 GMT


In article <J1J8PB1w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill
Eichman) writes:

>   Anyone have any opinions of the jewish use of 'amen'?

it's an old semitic word. it's in arabic as well as hebrew. the christians,
in fact, borrowed it from the jews (muslims use it too; at least they came
by it honestly).

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: C558215@mizzou1.missouri.edu (daemon)
Subject: Shields
Organization: Organization?!  Yeah, right!
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:14:27 GMT
X-Posted-From: mizzou1.missouri.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

 
My personal favourite imagery for the creation of shields involves
mirrors of various types.  These mirrors can be either imagined, or
real.  For example, the outer surface of the citadel mentioned in
a previous post can be imagined to be a mirrored surface which
reflects any 'attack' either back at the attacker, or off in some
harmless direction.  Or, the symbolism can be carried into the
physical world by placing handmirrors at windows, doors, or other
entrances to a room, and then coordinating this with the necessary
and equivalent mental imagery.  In using mirrors, the idea is not
to absorb the attack (as with the cital defense), but rather to
redirect the projected energies or emotions.  For me, this seems
to take a great deal less effort.
 
I know I've not answered the original question ('is such and such
form of emotional-magickal attack possible?'), but that's because
i don't feel qualified to answer.  How can I say what truly is or
is not possible here on a newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of
'impossible' phenomena, and still take myself serious?  ;)  With
luck, someone out there will at least find a question to go with
the answer I -did- supply...
 
                           throughout chaos and madness,
                                         ---daemon<<
 
c558215@mizzou1.missouri.edu
 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Working in Groups
Date: 27 Aug 92 11:33:12 EDT

Hello,

cward@Think.COM (Christopher) writes...

> The occult or magic(k) path follows the Path of Return (reversal of the 
> Lightning Strike).  It is more concerned with the using and balancing of 
> powers, hence the acquisition of "magical powers".  The goals do nto seem
> as lofty as ones espoused by mystics but I suspect that has more to do with
> the personalities involved than the path chosen.  It seems to work better
> for Extrovert Sensate types.  Basic mode of operation: group ritual
> 
> Of course, these are the most gross generalities...

Thanks for the definitions.  They don't really agree with mine, but hey,
vive le difference, and all that.  Do you define Golden Dawn and A.'.A.'.
type work as 'mystical', since the progression of the 'grades' is upwards?

Personally, I like to think that once someone has 'worked upwards' to a
certain point on the Tree of Life, they are completely free to play around
all they want with going up, down, left, right, whatever, within that space.
But whether it is better alone or in groups seems irrelevant.

>> [regarding groups...]
>> I'm in the 'disdain' camp for the most part.  However, the groups that are
>> stable enough, and long-lived enough, to publish their 'knowledge' are
>> very useful for me - for 'raw material' to shape and mold in my own
>> practice!
>
> Care to share specifics you've found good/bad?

I was specifically thinking of the Golden Dawn (in all its various forms,
from Isis-Urania to Whare-Ra).  It's rare that an 'isolated' individual
will publish something of value - at least in these days of demand for new
New Agey books.  The Test of Time (capitals provided for humor) is half the
picture for me, and Mine Own Ingenium (ditto caps) is the other half.
____________________________________________________________________________
   "Hold the flame 'til the dream ignites..."

                                  Steve Cranmer
                                  cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
From: dgd@csd.bu.edu (David Durand)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: herbal freedom
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:17:55 GMT
	<BtM9AE.3n7@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: Roberstool Research Labs
In-reply-to: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu's message of 27 Aug 92 00:27:48 GMT

In article <BtM9AE.3n7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

> Well, I've discussed this in the past with a friend of mine who is an
> herbalist and is All But Dissertation on a PhD in Family and Consumer
> Economics.  The law restricting claims on packaging is part of a whole
> effort to make food labeling more accurate.  She has been working for
> years to get this law passed.  It does prevent manufacturers from
> claiming that herbs have particular benefits on the packaging, but it
> does not restrict the sale of the herbs at all.  The only limit the
> FDA is putting on things is what can be claimed on a label.  Please
> note that these substances are being sold as *foods* not as *drugs*.
> They have none of the restrictions or protections on them that drugs
> have.
   Unfortunately this is _not_ how the FDA is attempting to apply this
law. They have already stsrted seizing herbal and nutritional
preparations using this law as justification. You can get more info on
this in alt.drugs (and no doubt elsewhere). The problem is that the
seizures authorized by the law are still performed based on
administrative guidelines set by the FDA, whose goal is to remove
these from the market. Note that the selling of books on "herbal
medicine" at a store that sells herbs is defined by the FDA as
"advertising".

>		 Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>				  Br'anArthur

>   Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)


    -- David Durand
    (sorry for non magick posting, but I wanted to correct what I
think is misinformation about the _application_ of the law. The intent
is indeed as described.)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: herbal freedom
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:36:46 GMT

In article <DGD.92Aug27121755@csd.bu.edu>, dgd@csd.bu.edu (David Durand) writes:
|> In article <BtM9AE.3n7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
|> 
|> Note that the selling of books on "herbal
|> medicine" at a store that sells herbs is defined by the FDA as
|> "advertising".
Interesting.  Just last weekend a doctor (not generally happy
about entrepenurial pharmacology) told me that the FDA can
NOT interfere with selling books which make false claims, even 
when they are displayed right next to the products.  Can
somebody give me something other than rumors on this?

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: about attacks and so forth as they pertain to empathy
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:39:34 GMT
	<Bu25uv.A56@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> <Bu26w8.DyF@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science


In article <Bu26w8.DyF@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> mcmorris@vet.vet.purdue.edu 
(brandywine) writes:

>   about attacks and so forth....
>   [lots of more than usually self-important stuff deleted]

what are you, about 19?

josh
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