HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ampe@cbnews.cb.att.com (john.e.ampe)
Subject: Re: quick-release skewer failure?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:04:38 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.105124.199@leland.Stanford.EDU> tedebear@leland.Stanford.EDU (Theodore Chen) writes:
>In article <1992Nov4.005048.25250@tvnews.tv.tek.com> daveh@soul.tv.tek.com (David M. Hayes) writes:
>>You can thank the US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), and our 
>>litigious society for the stupid "OPEN" and "CLOSE" legends. Reminds me of the
>>old Batman TV show where everything was labeled (e.g., "Air Supply Duct"). 
>
>even better: my friend's new MTB had retainers for the wheels, which
>also had quick release skewers.  you had to unscrew the quick release
>most of the way to get the stupid retainers off.  what's the point
>of having quick release levers if you're going to use the idiot tabs?

These seem to be appearing on new Treks, and probably other brands
as well.  I guess they want to avoid liability for people who don't
know how to use a quick-release.  The best thing to do is just take
a file to them...

John_Ampe@att.com
Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.tech:1842 rec.sport.triathlon:1397 rec.bicycles.marketplace:1060
From: x3420abo@maple.circa.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.sport.triathlon,rec.bicycles.marketplace
Subject: Re: Oakly shades
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:17:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: uflorida.37578
Reply-To: x3420abo@maple.circa.ufl.edu
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.tech
Organization: University of Florida - CIRCA

In article <03NOV92.13008151.0076@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, E5EM@UNB.CA (E5EM) writes:
>
> Has anyone out there tried a pair of the new Oakly Sub Zero shades?
>I'm thinking of buying a pair and would appreciate any comments.
>Also, are they only available in black iridium?
My friend has a pair of the new Oakly sunglasses, and I've tried a 
pair on not long ago.  They fit incredibly close to the face, hence
the small lense size.  They're super-light weight almost to the point
of being a wet noodle.  Comfort wise they're great.  Right now they only
come in black iridium I think.  Oakly usually comes out with more colors
after awhile.  My adivse is to "somehow" break your old Oakly sungalsses
and return them for credit and buy the subs with the credit.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: karen@athena.mit.edu (Karen E. Walrath)
Subject: spoke prep
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:02:01 GMT

What is "spoke prep".  I have occasionally seen it in a catelog,
and someone mentioned it on one of the rec.bike* newsgroups.

I normally just dip the spoke threads in some sort of grease.  Is
this ok?  Is spoke prep better?

Karen Walrath
MIT
karen@mit.edu

From: jbrandt@hplredHPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 22:17:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Avocet Low-Speed Inaccuracy
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech

Re: Avocet Low-Speed Inaccuracy

Marc Lee writes:

> I have an Avocet 40 which gives extremely inaccurate speed readings
> (on the low side) at speeds lower than 10mph.

This sounds like a faulty instrument to me.  Why not return it and
get another one.  Avocet is eager to please the customer so you
shouldn't have any trouble with this.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
From: jbrandt@hplredHPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 23:37:27 GMT
Subject: Mixing Spoke Types
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech

Webel writes:

>  Will there be any problems replacing a spoke of a certain diameter
>  with a spoke of a different diameter?  For example, say I have a
>  wheel with 15 gauge spokes and break one and replace it with a 14,
>  or with a 14-15-14 double butted.

Excuse me if I don't use the gauge designations but this is an
anachronism that isn't supported by the markings on the major brands
of spokes, and as other latent jargon, should probably go the way of
block chain and wood rims.  We in the USA are the last to support
these and other ancient measures, no longer current even in England.

You most likely won't be able to notice the difference unless you
subject the wheel to some high loads.  The effects vary with what
sort of mix you make.

If you use one thin swaged (1.8/1.6mm) spoke among a set of thick
straight thickness (2.0mm) spokes, this spoke will not carry its full
share because it is more elastic than its neighbors who will carry
more of the load.

If you put a thick straight thickness spoke in a set of thin swaged
spokes, the thick spoke will carry more than its share than its more
elastic neighbors and will most likely unscrew its nipple if ridden
over rough roads.  With the larger cross section, the thick spoke
will stretch less elastically than the thinner ones, so smaller, load
induced deflections will make it go slack sooner than the thinner
spokes to either side.

Other scenarios are based on the same relations and remain as an
exercise for the student.  As they say in school.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: lloyd@leland.Stanford.EDU (William Koenig Lloyd)
Subject: Re: deore lx opins
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 00:14:20 GMT

New LX is like XTR in that:
The crank profile and chainrings are the same (just cheaper material).
The rapidfire plus shifters are the same (ditto)-- but I don't know if they
  have servo-wave.
The brakes are of the same design (and they both use a new yoke/straddle
  thing that makes set-up easier)... supposedly braking is really good.
They both have short (107 or 111)mm sealed bearing bottom-brackets.

XT and DX have the dual-SIS (hyperdrive) chainrings available (I think for
  extra cost), but the cranks are the same, higher-profile design.

So let's see what I forgot...

Bill
  

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: tlt38517@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Help: Clipless pedals for people with bad knees
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:34:22 GMT

Squirt some triflow or something on your Time pedal mechanisms.  They
should come out much easier.
-Terry

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: 95njk@williams.edu (Nathan J Kurz)
Subject: Re: Self-Healing Tube Progress Report
Summary: Specialized self healing tubes sometimes work
Keywords: self healing tubes
Organization: Williams College, Williamstown, MA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 02:46:54 GMT

I took a long tour last year, and was having terrible problems with
sandburrs (goatheads) thru western Nebraska (like 7 flats in one day).
I stopped at a bike store and got two of Specialized's self-healing
tubes.
	They stopped most of my problems from sandburrs, at least.  It
is an incredible feeling to hear your tire hissing, and then have it
stop. The seal seemed to last, too.
	The problems came when you got any sort of cut or gash in the
tire.  With any sizeable slice, the go wouldn't do a thing, and I
couldn't get the patch to work 'cuz everything was coated with slime!

	I ended up returning them both (mailed from different places
along the route) to Specialized, and was pleased to find two new tubes
waiting for me when I got home.
	My overall impression is that they can help, especially with
thorns, but generally I had less problems with Mr. Tuffy liners (no
slice problems with them over 5k miles - on a Mountain bike though)
and thick "thorn-resistant" tubes.

Nathan Kurz
95njk@cc.williams.edu
From: jparker@phaedrus.Eng.Sun.COM (Jeff Parker)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Avocet Low-Speed Inaccuracy
Date: 10 Nov 1992 15:13:14 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. - BDC
NNTP-Posting-Host: phaedrus.east.sun.com

In article <009635E5.F02C0CC0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu> uphhsbt@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
>
>  My fairly constant pace of 10-12 mph suddenly dropped to
>3 to 4 mph.  Gee, it sure seemed like I was riding the same.  I then also began
>to notice that my round trip mileage was dropping, by almost exactly the amount
>of distance I was riding at less than 15mph.  Once I got over about 15 or so it
>would work fine and as long as that speed was maintained, it would read
>correctly.
>
>Brett Taylor

I've had the same (similar?) problem for years.  I figure that it samples 
at a fixed rate, and assume that no one rides slower than 13MPH.  Whenever
you drop below that speed, mine doubles the velocity.  
This has the effect of increasing my distances and speeds: but, as
they say, your milage may vary.

				- jeff parker
				- Sun Soft 
--
Jeff Parker						jparker@east.sun.com
Sun Microsystems					      (508) 671-0588
From: weird@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (john.t.erhardt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Summary: rebuilding Look pedals
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:14:51 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <BxIu79.MG7@cleo.abt.com> todd@cleo.abt.com (Todd Nix) writes:
>In <1992Nov10.182036.25947@borland.com> sjc@borland.com (Steve Correll) writes:

>6. push out the outside bearing cartridge. the inside needle bearings
>   are not removable...be sure not to damage them.

I haven't seen it done or done it myself, but i believe they are replaceable.
First of all, i wouldn't figure that Loose Screws would sell both bearings
as replacements if you couldn't remove them.  i believe it takes a special
took made either my Look or Park called a bearing puller.

John Erhardt
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Derailleur to blame for bad indexing?
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:42:43 GMT
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.tech
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <1992Nov2.155512.26505@cis.ohio-state.edu>,
goelz@skink.cis.ohio-state.edu (christopher k goelz) wrote:
> 
> 
> Somebody help!  My shimano index shifting system is driving me crazy 
> because I don't know what's wrong with it.
> 
> I just bought a new set of above-bar shift levers hoping that would solve
> the problem, but that didn't do any good.  The rear derailleur shifts as 
> though the cable were extremely stretched out but that is not the case 
> because the new shifters came with cables and housing.  All the components
> are compatible (Deore XT).  The hanger appears to be straight as far as
> the eye can tell.  I know how to properly adjust the indexing so I am
> certain that it is not just in need of a little adjustment.
> 
> Could the problem be the rear derailleur?  It is a couple years old.

Maybe you've already checked this, but if you haven't, measure your chain
for elongation.  24 links measure exactly 12 inches on a new chain.  If
this measurement exceeds 12 inches by 1/16, it can affect shifting quite
badly, and also cause undue wear on sprockets.

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Wow!
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: dahls@fhydra.dnet.unit.no (Joern Yngve Dahl-Stamnes)
Subject: Mavic rim line?
Reply-To: dahls@fhydra.dnet.unit.no (Joern Yngve Dahl-Stamnes)
Organization: University of Trondheim, NORWAY
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 09:05:11 EST

I'm going to buy a new road bike this year. The bike is the '93 Cannondale
R900, but I will get other wheels than clincers. Yes - I wan't sewups!

What I'm looking for is a list showing which rims Mavic got in their
line (a high-end to low-end list). The shop in Houston was talking
about Mavic 300 rims with Swiss Ti DX spokes and Continental sewups.

Any comments?

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
* I went back to my mother,           * Joern Yngve Dahl-Stamnes             *
* I said, "I'm crazy ma, help me!"    * University of Trondheim              *
* She said, "I know how it feels son, * The Norwegian Institute of Tech.     *
* 'cause it runs in the family."      * Division of Physical Electronics     *
*       - The Who, Quadrophenia       * e-mail: dahl-stamnes@delab.sintef.no *
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 19:42:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: wild rim failure -- drive side \*pushing\* fatigue
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech

James Vorosmarti writes:

> As luck would have it a MAVIC rep gave a talk last night about all
> of their goodies and i asked him about the rim failures.  he has
> seen a number of the Mavic rims fail in a similar manner to the one
> you describe and said that there was a batch that were assembled
> with incorrect ferrules in the rim, so that the load from the spoke
> on the rim was not distributed correctly.

I have also had the opportunity to talk to MAVIC about this and the
various dodges are as unconvincing as a grade school fib.  When you
ask why this has never occurred with one of their non-anodized rims
there is a change of subject and a flurry of denials.  As I said, I
have sent example off to a metallurgist at ALCAN who promises to shed
some light on the matter.  I will post the results when I get them.

It is inconceivable to me that MAVIC does not know exactly what's
going on and I believe they are knowingly deceptive when they tell us
these stories.  It has happened before and it will happen again.
There are people who believe that if you can't prove they are lying
then what they say must be as good as true.  Meanwhile their
credibility goes to hell in a hurry.  Maybe they are relying on human
nature that makes people want to believe unbelievable things.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
From: jbrandt@hplredHPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 02:00:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: About clipless pedals (and Jobst)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech

J. Dodd writes:

> Speaking of Jobst, where is he?  I haven't read anything from him
> for ages.  Yooo hooo....

Although our newsreader displayed notes, it did not send any, so
that's why some old and redundant notes of mine finally got posted
today because it got fixed.  I noticed the failure because I got no
hate mail from my "fans" and deduced that I was posting only locally.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: scheng@bcarh886.bnr.ca (Spencer Cheng)
Subject: Re: Help: Clipless pedals for people with bad knees
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 13:58:06 GMT

In article <1689AF7F9.M16302@mwvm.mitre.org> M16302@mwvm.mitre.org writes:

   I had decided to go clipless despite having a torn ligament in my left knee.
   I put some time racings (91 model) on my bike and tried it on a training stand.
   The force to release by twisting ( I have the new Time cleats) was a lot more
   than I suspected and gave me a sore kneecap.  Does anyone know what clipless
   pedal or system would require the least force to get out of? Also, what cliples
   s system would be best for releasing in a crash?

You can try SPD. I have being told that they are better that the older
ones.
--

Spencer Cheng     scheng@BNR.CA  Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada  613-763-4046
From: dhm1@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DANIEL HILL MCCAULEY)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Track Bike Wheels;:::::::
Date: 10 Nov 92 04:38:36 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

I am planning to buy track wheels for a used track frame I recently bought.
The wheel clearance is the same as a normal frame, so it can accept normal
rims,such as Mav. open 4cd etc...  My question is, within a reasonable price
range, say 150-180 dollars what is my best choice of rims, spokes and hubs.
Any advice would be appreciated.  Also I am looking for cranks also.  What are
some good in quality yet reasonably priced track cranks.  Thanks lots!!!

-Dan McCauley (DHM1@NS2.CC.LEHIGH.EDU)
-- 
*******************************************************************************
*Dan McCauley       (Lair of Sam, Lisa, Spot, Spot II, and Victoria)
*                              ...with carcasses of dead smelly vermin!
*******************************************************************************
From: jbrandt@hplredHPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1992 02:48:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Knobby tires on a road bike?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech

Matt Garretson writes:

> I have a crappy road bike that I'm using to commute. I want to put
> knobby tires on it for snow/ice riding. My wheels are 27 x 1 1/8"
> (clincher)..  Is there any way in hell I can get knobbies for these
> wheels?

In soft snow knobs will be an advantage but on ice they work against
you.  In fact, as long as you can make an impression on the road with
your tire, a profiled tread can help but on hard pavement as on ice,
the shape of the rubber other than smooth diminishes traction.

Ice in particular, becomes slick because it melts under pressure.  The
higher the pressure the slicker it gets, as it does under and ice
skate.  The concentrated pressure of knobs increase lubricity and
reduces traction.  The best tire for riding on ice would be a smooth
fat MTB tire with 25 psi or so.  The lower pressure limit would be
governed by riding stability, not traction.

On the other hand, a fat smooth tire with short sheet metal screws
protruding from the tread about 3 mm works well on ice.  A Kevlar
reinforces tire holds these better.  Don't worry about putting them
more than 1o mm from the centerline because you cant safely bank over
anyway.  Ice motorcycling, in contrast uses specially constructed
tires that allow banking over low enough to slide on your knee instead
of on a hot shoe usually used in flat track racing.  Home brew tires
and spikes don't work to that degree on a bicycle.

Remember to use top gear on the ice.  Too much torque doesn't work
well.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
From: jtyl@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BJ)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: spokes
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:03:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <Bx9FwA.49G@rice.edu>, shenry@cs.rice.edu (Sam Henry) writes...
>In article <1da9u8INN3uc@male.EBay.Sun.COM> npg@manx.EBay.Sun.COM is
>wireed: 
> 
>>Which is thicker, a 14-gauge or a 15-gauge spoke?  
> 
>A 14.
> 
>This is the American (?) Wire Gauge Standard measure................. 
>If more wires/spokes (15) will fit through the hole, then they must be
>thinner.  Inversely, 14 in the hole indicates a thicker wire/spoke.

>Refer all questions to rec.bicycles. racing.  They need the traffic
>and are not accepting information on racers below the age of 25.
>--
>sam henry <shenry@rice.edu>
>Wanna ride?

Do I detect a slight undercurrent of sarcasm there, Sam Henry?

Good explanation on "guage", tho.  I never did know what the rationale
to guage measurements was until now.  (no sarcasm here)
+------------------------------------------------------------+
|               O               /^^*  *  O  ^^\              | 
|              /\,            /^    *   <|<   *^\            |
|             -\ -       /^^^^ /^^\    / \\  *   ^^\         |
|              /(*)  /^^^   /^^    ^  * \//    /^^\ ^^^\     |
|  \___Q    (*) /^^^^   /^^^   BJ Lau     \\   *   ^^\  ^\   |
|  /\ /\    ^^^ ^       jtyl@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu     ^   ^^\|
+------------------------------------------------------------+
From: jepstei@afterlife.ncsc.mil (John Epstein)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Clinchers vs. Tubular
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:36:01 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

>Actually _neither_ is preferable. You should thoroughly wash the road
>rash using an antiseptic soap available at any pharmacy.
>
>The size of the road rash and it's discomfort will dictate the further
>treatment. If it's _only_ road rash you can treat it by applying an
>antibiotic cream (or if you are allergic to these things try J&J first
>aid cream but put it on heavily) and cover with a bandage until it's
>healed.
>
>If it's a large area there is available a product that I've never used
>but which has received good reports: It is in the form of a bandage but
>contains mostly water. This keeps the wound damp and considerably speeds
>healing. They are available from pharmacies also. I think they are called
>water bandages or some such. They are very expensive but if they work so
>well they might be worth the cost.
>
>Oh yeh, when I say you should wash the affected area, I mean wash, not
>splash some water on it. Apply lots of the antiseptic soap and rub it in
>for 15 minutes or more. You don't have to press hard or injure the wound
>further.

Best is to use betadine to clean --- I don't think it is possible for most
people to clean their own road rash --- read article by ER person.

Silvadine burn ointment is very good.

Most important for serious road rash as for any serious burn is GOOD
STERILE TECHNIQUE.  That means using Q-tips or whatever swabs to apply
ointment without comtaimenating ointemnet or burn.

John
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: jackson@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce Jackson)
Subject: Re: Symmetric rear hub
Organization: University of North Texas, Denton
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 05:54:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.195742.10324@news.nd.edu> jscott@vardamir.next.nd.edu (James Scott) writes:

>I'm interested in building a non-dished rear wheel.  Do any manufacturers  
>make symmetric road hubs?  I'm looking for a rear hub whose flanges are  
>not offset to accomodate a freewheel.

You can remove all of the offset from a standard freewheel hub by simply
respacing the rear axle.  For a while it was popular among tourists to
have 5 speed rear wheels made to fit a 6 speed frame.  The extra 5 mm
was added to the non-drive side to reduce wheel dish.  The resulting
wheel had less dish than any standard wheel.  Doing the same for a
7 speed frame may result in a dishless wheel (I don't have a personal
copy of Sutherlands so I have no way of figuring this out).  If there
is stil not enough room for a 5 speed freewheel on your dishless wheel
you may end up having to either using a single speed BMX freewheel or
a trackbike cog (with an english BB lockring to secure it).

>James Scott                                        
>jscott@cleese.next.nd.edu

Bruce  -  jackson@cs.unt.edu
From: biegler@castle.ed.ac.uk (R Biegler)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Symmetric rear hub
Summary: Why not use a hub gear?
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:52:43 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

James Scott writes:
> I'm interested in building a non-dished rear wheel.  Do any
> manufacturers make symmetric road hubs?  I'm looking for a rear hub
> whose flanges are not offset to accommodate a freewheel.

Would you consider a hub gear?  I read yesterday in the New Cyclist that
both Sachs and Shimano have introduced 7-speed hub gears.  The Sachs
Torpedo Super Seven is also designed to take a 3-speed derailleur.  is
that enough?

Does anyone have some more information about those hub gears?

Robert Biegler
From: jwgst2+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: charging lead acid batteries
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:55:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


	I want to buy a 12 volt, 3 amp-hour lead acid battery to use in a 
lighting system that I am building.  Following the 1/10th rule, I need to use
a charger that delivers 300 milliamps.  I have a wall converter that is rated
at 300 milliamps & 12 volts.  Can I use this to charge the battery?  What is 
involved with doing this?  Do I have to guess at the charge time, or is there
some way that I can calculate this?  Can I use this power source as a trickle
charger?  Any info would be helpful, since I will base my battery purchase on
this info.  Thanks!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
James Gourgoutis       				   
Mechanical Engineering                                O   
University of Pittsburgh                           _ /__,     
e-mail me at:  JWGST2@unixd.cis.pitt.edu          (_) /(_) 
	       or JWGST2@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Thanks!           			   "Why am I so late?  It took me 
					    25 minutes to decide which bike
					    to ride!" 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-       
--