HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: "Moving Narrow Focus" events
Date: 24 Jan 93 21:53:34 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

Howdy, unto the net, from Thomas etceterus...

Some of the recent discussions on the net have given me an idea.  Once the
1992 Arizona Rennaisence Festival is over, I am going to explore the idea
of a series of narrow focus events with a moving time frame.  The idea
is to re-enact history "as it happens".   A series of events would be held,
and each one would be a snapshot of a series of events in one "era" of
history.   For example, we might have 10 feasts over a year, and the events
would span the War of the Roses, Henry VIII's 6 wives, the 1'st crusade,
the Great Plague, the little clash between John and his Barons, a few
weeks in 1066, etc..

Each person would be asked to adopt a good persona. The person should be
ina  position where they would be knowledgable of the events, but we wouldn't
want anybody to be Richard III, for example.   But one of the gentleman
servents of Richard would work...  as would merchants, mercenaries, etc..

Each revel would have an announced historical date; May 12, 1565 (for example).
Each person would bone up on the "news", decide how their persona would see it
with regards to themselves.  Obviously Lancastrians and Yorkists would see
certain events in the War of the Roses quite differently.   We could study
1066 with people from Denmark, Normandy, and England all in attendance.

During the revel we would be constrained to discuss only the recent events
from our personas point of view.  No computer talk, no "sca" talk, no filking.
Normans would dispute the validity of Williams claim to the throne
from thier POV, while the Daneish and English would uphold thier point of
view.  Towards the end we might break period to discuss what we have learned,
but for a while it would be "persona-only".

I think this idea mightr work out to be a lot of fun.  Any suggestions, 
comments, etc???
From: asgds@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Village, Medieval Summer Camp etc...
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:22:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad2.1993Jan25.112235.1
Organization: University of Alaska




	In his post Cariadoc has basically asked about the feasability of
setting up a Midieval village along the lines of Willamsburg.
	This notion excites me greatly, (no comments from the Peanut 
Gallery PLEASE!) and I would like to address it.

	The only real problem I can see with this Idea is that Williamsburg
is set in one specific period, or at the very least deals with a much
shorter span of years than does the SCA.  When and What would we include
in this Village?
	My solution to this problem would probably be to explain in the
brochure that the village depicts not any particular time, but as much of the
SCA Period as could be shown.
	If such an SCA Village were to be created could the SCA Inc. help with
the seed money?  I would think that establishing such a village would go a 
long way towards the aim of the SCA (...non-profit EDUCATIONAL...).  Any 
profit the village made could be spent on Village up-keep and on sepparate
annexes; a Viking settlement, an Elizabethan village, (place persona 
environment hear)....
	On a related track I have heard rumors of a Ren Faire in California
that takes place in a permanent village....?

				Yours in Service,
					Charles Toutaurien
					MKA Geoff Stewart;)
  
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Reply-To: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Organization: GTE Contel Federal Systems
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b31
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:47:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.195726.23040@epas.toronto.edu>, 
nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:

> 
> A previous post questioned whether shield attrition would be a serious 
> factor in mediaeval combat. 
> 
> I have done some sword-and-buckler work with live steel and both steel 
> and wooden bucklers.  My personal experience is that anybody who 
> practiced with live steel must have had a closet full of shields, 
> because they get hacked to hell. 
> 
> Shield attrition is also an offencive factor, since an attacker's 
> sword can often be trapped in the grain of the wood he is cutting. 
> 
>  

Hey, Aryk, are we having fun or what??

Many period MSS show ?practice combat? between men (or clerics) armed with 
cudgels and bucklers, including several (which I have seen published, but not 
in original or facsimile) dated 13th century.  This was apparently a form of 
entertainment which the klopfechter (?close enough) specialized in.  It is 
speculated that this group grew out of the Luxbruders, which were a 
fraternity of fencers contemporaneous with the Marxbruders.

In Herbert there is a description of a judicial duel to be fought with 
shields and cudgels. 

Aryk, we have steel bucklers, they seem to last, do you have anything on 
their failure modes (against steel? oak/ash baton?).

ST

SWORD AND BUCKLER. [MSS In the Royal Library, British Museum.  No. 14, E. 
iii., 13th Century and No. 20, D. vi.]

Berry, Herbert; The noble science: a study and transcription of Sloane MS. 
2530, papers of the Masters of Defence of London, Temp. Henry VIII to 1590; 
Cranbury NJ, Univ of Del Press; 1991 




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: asgds@acad2.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Period calendar; Nonfighter kings; etc...
Organization: University of Alaska
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:57:20 GMT



	

	Here in the Oerthan(Alaskan) barony of Eskalya(Anchorage),
there is an annual event known as the Ren Faire.  That's Ren as in Renaiscance
and every year Queen Elizabeth holds court over the whole proceedings.  King
James of Scotland alsoholds court nearby, as do representatives of a variety of
places; Transylvania, Arabia, "BArbarian" lands, and of course, the Barony and
principality also attend the faire.
	This is not an event that is put on by the aria SCA, but it is
a fun event.  In fact there has been a rumor going around that someone
is trying to start a competing "pleasure faire".
	In regards to SCA events with a non-scadian "royalty" as part of their
theme it would seem to fit in with the period people playing at being
(whatever).
	Also I thought that Ren Faires would be common enough that this
wouldn't be a problem.  My problem is that I only know about things Oerthan
from direct experience, and things Western (As in the kingdom of the) from
books and stories.  So I would appreciate any mail on the subject of Ren Faires
and SCA "theme" events.
		Please E-mail me at asgds@acad2.alaska.edu
					Your servant
						Charles Toutaurien
					MKA Geoff Stewart
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Province jurisdictions || "Persona Packs"
Date: 22 Jan 93 02:34:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1993Jan22.023423.9678
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

In article <1993Jan21.170639.11389@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>In my opinion, you have the cart before the horse.  A group should be created
>when there is a regional identity, not as a solution to a problem.

  Hmmm...  Despite the way I worded the question, I am merely seeking infor-
  mation that may be relevant to a *potential* problem brewing in my neck of 
  the woods.  Knowledge is, after all, power, and if things come to a nasty
  turn, I'd like to have as much info as possible about solutions.  To this
  end, I profusely thank those of you who have already answered my question,
  and those who will answer it in the coming days as the article spreads.

  I do not know enough about the politics involved to advocate a split in the
  local branch, but there are some closer to it who are, and I wanted to see
  if and how such would be possible.

  I was digging about in the East's Law & Policies issue of the Pikestaff and
  discovered references to "Independent Colleges."  These references *seem*
  to indicate that such a thing would be autonomous of the Shire (etc) it
  geographically inhabits.  Is such the case?  I've not gone digging far enough
  to see how one sets one up, so I may be missing something relatively obvious
  here...


> [Referring to Persona Packs: ]
>I think work was being done on these by Countess Arastorm.  Given the bad news
>last week (house fire, no contents saved), I think it will be a while longer.

  Ouch!  My sympathies to those gentles affected by this upheaval.

  And again, thanks one and all.  If anyone would like to speak about similar
  problems and the solutions their branches came up with, I'd be more than
  happy to listen.

  -Iain
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 ------ Pain: The Universe's way of letting you know you're still alive. ------
From: ijohnson@oread.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:03:50 GMT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Serces


 
 
 
	I've copied down with great interest the references I've seen you list
so far, and wondered if you know of any other pre-1500 manuals that would be
useful for studying period styles of combat, and how they might be available. 
Are there reproductions, translations, commentaries, etc. that could be found
through interlibrary loan or from a publisher?

	I'm especially interested in the Sword and Buckler manuscript from the
Royal Library.  I've seen plates from it show up in the occaisional armor book,
and would love to see the whole set of illustrations.

	Also, are there any medieval techniques you've come across in the
manuals that might lend themselves to SCA combat without horrifying the
marshals?  
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blaxson@shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson)
Subject: re: Authentic
Reply-To: balaxson@systems.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:22:22 GMT


Whilst others discuss I do can not restrain myself to do naught but  
contribute.


> If you have no intrest in the middle ages or renaissance as it develped  
in
> Europe why do you come?

And what about all the other personas???
There are Japanese, Russian and I heard (on the Rialto) of a North  
Ameridian persona.

Personnely I am also very busy with a lot of things.  I like the SCA as an  
outlet for some of the things I would like to do; like poetry, story  
telling, dancing, buffeting helm.  Alot of what I do in life is rather  
focused on engineering and stuff. In integrating with the SCA I just use a  
mediviel (Europe for me) slant to things.  Stuff I don't really do  
well/highly interested in are handled by working with others in the  
society  (i.e. I have bought or commisioned most of my garb).  Some things  
I do for developing of skills; like armouring and woodwork; but hey....

Even in the middle ages they had craftsmen and the like you could work  
with.

I also look at commisioning armour as a way of supporting the craft, they  
are know motivated to do some.

Brian Goodheart, The Changing
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pyotr@halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe)
Subject: Latin texts (was Re: Holy Grail monk chant... help?
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:23:36 GMT

greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:

>Gwydion asks for the Latin being parodied in MP's Holy Grail:

>>Anyway, it's just for a bit of fun, and I'm tired of writing it out as
>>     "Bee yay ay-zoo dom-ee-nay, dough-na ay ees requi-em <BAM!>
>>      Bee yay ay-zoo dom-ee-nay <BAM!>, dough-na ay ees requiem <BAM!>"
>>when I describe it to others.

>It is:
>	Beate Ihesu, domine, dona eis requiem.
>	Blessed Jesus, lord, give them rest.

>It is from the litany of the Requiem Mass.

>And for your penance for the venial sin of Latin illiteracy... :-)

>Hossein/Greg
>(who feels mighty smug about having to tell one of these Frankish Christians
>what's what about the Latin of the mass...:-)

Oh exhalted learned effendi, perchance you could 
enlighten this poor humble rustic as to the latin text
for a generalized indulgence (the fill in the blank sort
so popular amoungst the unletterd).  Or a pinter to a reference
with such a text.

with many blessings on you and your house
I remain
Nikolai Petrovich


-- 
Pyotr aka Peter D. Hampe : eka pyotr@halcyon.com
Nothing says loving like a bun in the oven.
EOF
From: n9040513@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Andrea Aldridge)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Ranking Performers in the SCA
Date: 23 Jan 93 22:35:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1993Jan23.223543.7805
Organization: Western Washington University

In article <C1AHs4.Bp4@news.ucs.mun.ca> andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy) writes (among other noteworthy comments):

>  I suspect that if instead of going to the Vancouver Folk Song Society,
>I had gone to some organisation that ranked people in some fashion, I would
>never have become a singer, or come to appreciate some of the deeper,
>most important qualities of songs.

Fortunately, that has not been my observation of the majority of bardic-
related events, at least in An Tir.  With the exception of a few known
individuals (read "musical snobs"), I have noted encouragement of all levels 
of performance ability, on the perceived basis that everybody has a right to 
shared expression and that we may even by-gosh learn something from them, not 
to mention hearing a variety of talents.

>  I'd like to associate more with other musicians in the SCA, but frankly
>SCA organisations generally place so much emphasis on ranking that they
>turn me off, and they never seem to be organised enough to actually hold
>well advertised meetings and otherwise let people know what they do, at
>least at Pennsic (where I've tried to seek them out) and through (East)
>kingdom and society publications.

Again, An Tir may be ahead of the masses in this, but: even though I have been
out of the SCA for two years now, I still have current SCAdians walk up to or
call me on a regular basis--and not always the same ones--to tell me that 
something bardic, formal or in-, is going on if I want to make time (which,
unfortunately, I never can).  My recollection of these events is that they are
pretty eclectic, drawing all levels of (welcome) ability for the chance to
express themselves.  It's brought a lot of nervous Nellies out of the closet,
to their benefit and others'.  At the annual Celtic Bardic Fest in Blatha an
Oir (Tacoma, WA), I have happily heard performance that run the gamut of
style and ability.  That is the most prestigious bardic event, to my mind,
in An Tir, and all are welcome.

Oh, well...we always knew the west (small "w") was progressive...
-- 
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<>  Andrea Aldridge    IRC:  Folkie   E-Mail:  n9040513@henson.cc.wwu.edu <>
<>  WWU - 452 Edens Hall North/Bellingham, WA 98225-5971   (206) 650-2647 <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:58:14 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.043904.18136@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:
>Yes, Lord Godfrey, I would.  Not for any slight to scribes nor from any
>undervaluation of their work, would I do so, but for the screaming
>mundanity of it.  I find it hard to imagine Henry II of England handing
>out writs to his sheriffs and holding each up to be admired by his court,
>saying "Br. Louis did this one."  It's a completely unmedieval practice.

Perhaps a solution:

Was it not common practice for a scribe to in fact 'sign' a manuscript with
words to the effect of:
"written on this day by <name>" 
?

and usually including the person commanding the work as well as the reasons
for it?

So, if the herald reads the entire scroll, the scribe would indeed be credited.

Reynard


-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: KELLEN@clemson.clemson.EDU
Subject: Where'd everybody go?
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 13:45:00 GMT

Hello out there,
  I too have noticed a huge drop in the number of digests and
messages coming through the SCA list.  Is there possibly a
space problem at mit or someone on vacation?  Another possibility
is that Dennis and Terri have finally taken their "discussion"
to e-mail.
Shannon MacFerris
Ellen Krupar
"Do you know why it is called a drop spindle?  It is because
everytime I try to spin with it, the yarn breaks and drop goes
the spindle|"
From: haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What is a protege?
Date: 28 Jan 1993 01:38:06 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: rust.zso.dec.com


Arval asks:
>You seem to have the notion that a protege/apprentice/squire has to
>demonstrate skill in order to "earn" his position.  I've run into that
>notion frequently, across the SCA, often tied to the idea that these
>relationships confer rank on the dependent (which idea I certanly don't
>attribute to you, Godfrey).  I find this a peculiar notion.

>Why do people think this happens?  Is it a misunderstanding caused by the
>behavior of some/all peers?  Is it built into the system?

I believe that this happens because there are people who are impatient with
normal process of getting a peerage and seek a 'fast track'. Since these are
people who believe it is their manifest destiny to be a peer, they assume
that the cachet of 'protege' confers status. The folk of this type are so
obnoxiously blatant about it that they suceed in acquiring some status. They
become well known because they will force themselves on anyone who can push
them another step along the fast track.

The result may even be a fast track, because they will not be overlooked when
they finally develop peerage qualities.

This is not to suggest that all protege's are of this type. I am certain that
the majority of protege's and apprentices are shy and unobtrusive.

It is a function of the system that requires that status is granted to folk
who have been noticed. Status seekers take pains to ensure that they are
noticed and take pains to ensure that any trappings of status are noticed. It
is, therefore, not a fault of the peer.

It would be wrong to assume that the peer lacked judgement in taking on such
a protege. It is possible for the crown to suggest that a peer adopt a person
with these qualities in the hope that the peer can train or otherwise control
the status seeker so that the 'notice me' antics can be transmuted from
potenially destructive acts to neutral or even constructive activities. For
example a heckler at court can be turned into a personal herald.

	Fiacha
	Aquaterra, AnTir
From: cavalama@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Randall K. Spicher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Psuedo-illegal targets (was Re: Illegal targets (was period
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:07:51 GMT
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick) writes:


: > 
: What is worse is that there are many places where blows to the arm are 
: considered unchivalrous, and individuals often use the entire ARM to defend 
: the head.  This creates a form even more ludicrous, where people leave their 
: arms foreward without consideration that in period, this would be the first 
: place struck.
: 

If someone offers me an arm, I take it!
(I need any advantage I can get!)
In fact I'll *Try* to get my opponent to give me a shot at the arm (or leg).

Whats more Chivalrous (tm)?  *Killing* your opponent, or wounding him so 
that he is unable to continue, and so must yeild?
How about in period?  Anyone got any period references on chivalrous
combat?  Did they deliberately try to avoid wounding unless they could
kill?  Or did they try to wound rather than kill?



: AND YES, there are many descriptions of period combats a pleasance where the 
: hand is hit, and yes, the arms and hands are targets in the manuals 
: previously discussed.

Yes, yes, but was it considered Chivalrous (tm), or just practical?

: 
: ST

Cavalamar

	"Quaffing is like drinking, but you spill more."
			-T Pratchet
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Made in Atlantia
Date: 26 Jan 93 06:28:24 GMT
Organization: The Rialto

Tadhg writes:

> Hm. I should have thought a form of *fabrior* would be more appropriate...

Yeah, and I bet you think that woodworkers read Quintillian in their
spare time in the middle ages :-).  They wouldn't have known a deponent
verb if it came up and bit them on the bum.  I have a theory that the
popularization of "fio" as the verb for manufacture in such ascriptions
has to do with its use on coins, but the evidence is only so-so.

The bottom line is that you don't much see "fabrior" in workman's
manufacture ascriptions in the middle ages.

Hossein/Greg
(who is also very pleased to talk about actual medieval stuff)
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Authentic (and dates used) 
Distribution: world
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 00:17:43 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


  > Maybe I'm showing my age, but whatever happened to the cut-off date of 
  > 1650? 

The official cut-off, as I understand it, has always been 1600 (try Corpora 
for details) and the main requirement for attendence at SCA events is 
something like "a reasonable attempt at pre-1600 dress".  The confusion seems 
to be because various SCA publications and activities use 1650 (as far as 
I'm aware the Caid Arts Fair and Pentathlon still states that "All entries 
must have a theme/style/flavor of a pre-1650 culture" (it was rule 10 in the 
'89 rules)) and some people stretch the cut-off date because they like being 
Cavaliers.  And who can blame them?


  > What do I do with all my Stuart garb?

Keep wearing it.  I'd be extremely surprised if anyone ever used the pre-
1600-dress requirement to exclude Cavaliers.  (They would, in theory, be 
within their rights to do so, but I've [*cynicism alert*] yet to see the SCA 
effectively enforce anything and Cavaliers don't seem like any great 
*threat*, do they?  ]-) 

Pagan le Chaunster                                                        
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Awarding awards and declining them
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:04:37 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Hal Ravn writes:
> Surprise is when the question is asked in Court--and I know one Laurel
> who tried to decline in Court because whe didn't think the efforts
> cited were sufficient to merit the award (the rest of us disagreed),
> so we cited a whole bunch of  *other* stuff she did to and convinced
> her on the spot.  It looked a bit dicey there for a minute, but that's
> a tough place to say no....

So, to put a Bertram-esque tangent on the question, how should/does one
say no to an award.  Assume that there is legitimate reason in your own
mind for decline.
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029