HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:34:14 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Do colleges require only first-year writing? (8)
              at Jan 5, 93 10:47 am

>
>   One may
> >argue that students who attend the ivies are better prepared (and of course
> >they are) than the generally working class students--the ones who go to
> >the cheaper schools, but I wonder if another social imperative is at
> >work here?
> >Irv
>
> "Better prepared for whose what?" might be another way to ask the question
> and open the issue of the "social imperative" to the question of "Whose?"
> as well.
>
> robt
>
> rmcdonell@ucsd.edu
>
Robert:
Actually, I can't really remember what I was writing about.  I think
they are better prepared for assuming open-ended social role--they
define their own projects, purposes, rewards, etc.--they are better
prepared to assume positions that most of us find more rewarding than
those positions in which roles and rewards are defined for us.  The
social imperative might be that those of us who have made our way into
these positions have a deep interested in reserving those kinds of
positions (which are, after all, more fun that the others) for our
children--the ones who go to these elite schools.
Irv
How is ucsd these days?  Let's meet at CCCC.
--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 12:17:32 -0500
From:         MEEKER@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Mac Hypertext Software

I am very impressed with the informative power of electronic mail--and the
several very helpful responses to my questions about hypertext software for
the Mac.

I still would like to know more about a product called LinskWare, from
Linksware Corp, Monterey, CA, which links files created by wordprocessors
("Create the file with your favorite word processor; establish the links with
LinksWare 2.0 and select 'Save Standalone" from the menu. That's it!") and
sells for 50 bucks.  Since it advertises an Apple GS version it apparently
was developed for the Apple II first?
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 19:00:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Do colleges require only first-year writing? (8)

Entry: 8
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 05:01:00 EST
From: IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.COM" Robert Royar, (C&CD Moderator)
Message-id: <1992Dec29.050100.v7.055.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject: Do colleges require only first-year writing? (8)
Reply-to: "Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

>From: CROWLEY@NAUVAX.BITNET
>Subject: Standardizing Composition Classes (*MBU*)
>Message-id: <01GSV3I45ZK08WX75X@ulkyvx.bitnet>

>    4.  Institutional politics:  I have concluded that the one thing that
>makes FE different from all other college courses is the fact that it is
>required.  If we don't require it, perhaps (this is a big perhaps) it might
>assume the status enjoyed by other university courses.

Does this mean that many colleges do not require other courses from all
students? We require math (which includes basic math if placed in it),
history, philosophy, intermediate writing, lit, and a few others. These are
all part of a 30+-hour "core curriculum" with standard syllabi (our admin
showed us accred-agency docs that suopport their claim that standard
syllabi are necessary for these courses) but what NYIT and our accreditors
call syllabi (10-25 page documents) are a bit more elaborate than what MBU
has been calling syllabi (which we would call course outlines).

As an undergrad I had to take 12 hrs of required German language (the
specific language was mandated by ones major which for me began as
Chemistry). I had to take history, and a few electives from a very
constrained range. Even at the senior level there was one required
(non-English) "elective" which I hated to have to take.

I assumed that most colleges had some required core courses. Is this just
naive?

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "If the Russians can get rid of the Communists, the Americans can get rid
    of the Republicans."                                        - Rudy Rucker

------------------------------
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:32:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Who teaches required courses? (9)

Entry: 9
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 04:38:22 EST
From: IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.COM" Robert Royar, (C&CD Moderator)
Message-id: <1993Jan05.043822.v7.060.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject: Who teaches required courses? (9)
Reply-to: "Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

>From: Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
>Subject: RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Do colleges require only first-year writing? (8)
>Message-id: <01GT4SWPLETS8WXUIL@ulkyvx.bitnet>
>
>Robert:
>The following is a casual inquiry:  are these other required courses
>taught by adjuncts and ta's?  I assume it goes without saying that
>lower status courses are taught by lower status people--people without
>degrees.

In my undergrad experience the required (non-English and English) courses
were taught by full-time and part-time professors (of all ranks from
instructor to full professor).

At NYIT or required first-year courses are taught by adjuncts and full
timers. Some of the full timers are full professors. However, not all the
NYIT required courses are first year. Philosophy (for example) is generally
sophomore/junior year. By then the attrition rate has set in, so a few 150+
student (no lie, 150 students in one philosophy course) offered each
semester handle the load.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "All that exists is worth perishing."
                                                                  - Goethe

------------------------------
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Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 10:20:19 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: daedalus

Thanks, Mary for that information on Writer's Helper and Daed.  I
have demo copies of both, but the real information comes from one
who has used both.
--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 09:05:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Problems with Daedalus Demo

The disk error message in Daedalus usually means that the program can't find a
file that it needs (I don't know why that generates a diskerror instead of a
can't find file, but it does)-- my guess is that there's a config file or a
prefs file that it can't find, but I couldn't be sure without looking at it.
I wouldn't think it's a system-version problem, though.

John Slatin
UT Austin

Hope that helps.
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:59:56 CST
From:         anthony george letai <leta@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject:      being famous, etc

In reply to Tom Bartman:
I don't believe I ever implied that simply being at a big time research
institution is enough to guarantee success and productivity.  Obviously,
ability of the PI is critical to productivity as well.  Anyone who doubts,
however, in the ability of prestigious institutions to produce lots of high
quality science should look at any recent issues of Cell.  Most, not all, of
the authors work at prestigious institutions (EMBL, Max Planck, MRC, Harvard,
MIT, Stanford, UCSF, UCSD, any of the Howard Hughes Medical Institutes, and
others.) Cell is probably the highest impact journal in the biosciences.

My central point is that fame in bioscience (if not all science) correlates
very well with success and productivity, contribution to the scientific world
and thus to the larger society.  Thus, I believe it should be regarded as a
very positve attribute, and not disparaged.

On another subject, I would appreciate if someone could tell me:
1) How do you guys append sections from previous messages? (The kind that are
preceded by carets)

2) How the hell do you exit the e-mail editor once you are in it?
 Just noticed the sexist use of my word guys, then realized it's pretty
accurate.  Any female members of this list?  Any ideas why not?

Tony
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:46:00 EST
From:         Josh Goldstein <JOSH@NEURON.UCHC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: being famous, etc

        In reply to Joel Shenker's message of 12 Jan:

        You made a good point about cause and effect. I am left to wonder
why, though, a major researcher would go to the big name institutions, if
they got famous at wherever they are. It's well and good to say that your
institution doesn't matter, that you can do great research anywhere, and I
would imagine that the most brilliant people will succeed anywhere. But if
these brilliant people move to a big name institution as soon as they can,
I am left to conclude that the big names are preferable.
        In general, they probably have more money, more facilities, and I
guess all the other famous researchers. I don't know, but the fact that all
the big name people END UP at the big name places, no matter how they got
there, tells me that these places MUST be more desirable.

        Or is it the fame alone that attracts people?

                                        --Josh
                                          1/7, UConn
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Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 18:18:42 -0600
Reply-To:     doc@uiuc.edu
From:         doc@UIUC.EDU
Subject:      Residencies & credentials
              Moen" at Jan 9, 93 05:56:13 pm

> So, if one has ambitions of running a major lab, or becoming famous,
> or doing something unusual (say, an MD/PhD who wants to do neurosurg along
> with sociology...), then one had better have the bluest of blue-chip
> credentials on one's CV, regardless of whether you believe they *really*
> mean much or represent reality.

Well, if that's what you're after in life, more power to you.  I choose to
live my own life.  Being famous isn't what's important to me.  Doing something
for this earth and this society besides taking up space during the time I'm
alive is more important to me.

jm
--
Jim Marco
doc@uiuc.edu
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:22:13 -0600
Reply-To:     doc@uiuc.edu
From:         doc@UIUC.EDU
Subject:      Residencies
              Goldstein" at Jan 7, 93 01:35:46 pm

> They usually have statistics like "90% of our 4th years got their first
> choice" or "95% were accepted by one of their top three choices". Again,
> the statistics sounded good, but not all schools offered them, or offered
> them in a standard format, so I had trouble using this as a basis for
> comparison.

I can remember interviewing at many med schools where they all boasted of
a high percentage of their graduates getting their first or second-choice
residencies.  The problem with using such a statistic as a gauge of the
quality of a med school is, you don't know if the students' first and
second choices were "good" residencies or not.  If a given school's students
all put "safe" residencies at the top of their lists, most of them will
likely get them.  On the other hand, if there's that oncology res at Mayo
that you dare to dream for, and put it as your first choice, it's going
to be a lot more competitive.  So say you don't get the Mayo, but get a
good residency somewhere else instead, which happened to be third or
fourth on your match list.  Does that mean you went to a crummy med school?
Hardly, I think.  It just means that you went for the longshot, and
didn't quite make it.

I've often wondered whether these schools that make such a big deal about
their grads' residencies coerce their 4th year students into putting
"safe" residencies at the tops of their lists, so that the school can
continue to boast of their success.  I would hope that does not happen
very often.  I do know that here at the University of Illinois, we are
definitely encouraged to put that "longshot" at the top of our list.
To me, a school that encourages its students to think big is a better one
that one that only talks big.

jm
--
Jim Marco
doc@uiuc.edu
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 07:57:28 EST
From:         THOMAS BARTMAN <bartmant@HAL.HAHNEMANN.EDU>
Subject:      RE: doc@uiuc's 7-jan-93 post

Regarding prestige (and john moen's latest message) - I think I missed the
early part of this discussion, but it appears that he is implying that if
one wants to become famous or run a major lab, that where you did your
graduate training is important.

While it can't hurt to be at a big name place, a quick scan ofg where nobel
laureats in medicine did their training will show that few of them went to
the "big name" schools.  For instance, David Baltimore got his Ph.D. from
Amherst college.  Now, how many of you would have considered applying there
to graduate school?!

Connections help, a name may help; but if you want to make it in science only
one thing really matters - YOU!

Tom Bartman, 4/7 Temple University
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:53:49 -0600
From:         "Joel I. Shenker" <jshenker@S.PSYCH.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: being famous, etc
              letai" at Jan 12, 93 11:59:56 am

> My central point is that fame in bioscience (if not all science) correlates
> very well with success and productivity, contribution to the scientific world
> and thus to the larger society.  Thus, I believe it should be regarded as a
> very positve attribute, and not disparaged.

Even if so, recall the basic points of introductory statistics that
correlations do not allow one to decide on cause and effect.  In other
words, the fact that a prestgious iinstitution membership and
publication quality/number are positively correlated does not allow one
to decide which way the causeal arrow goes (nor even does it allow one
to exclude the possibility of a third variable that causes both of the
others).

> 1) How do you guys append sections from previous messages? (The kind that are
> preceded by carets)
This is idiosyncratic to the particular email program that you use. In
my system, I can respond to an email message by hitting "r" after which
I am prompted with several questions including whether or not I want the
original message to be copied in my response.

>
> 2) How the hell do you exit the e-mail editor once you are in it?
>
Again, this is idiosyncratic to the email editor that you happen to use.
Ask your system operator.
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 02:34:14 CST
From:         John Grant Moen <jgm1@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Don't go spastic on me folks

Joel --

There are many good thoughts in your latest MDPHD-L post.  I was reminded of
a friend's assertion that essentially all activities in contemporary human
society have a strong sales/marketing/p.r. component.  No, this person
was NOT some right-wing free market ideologue with a passion for making
business & finance analogies in life.  It was just a realistic appraisal of
the fact that most judgments and decisions are not made using only
"objective" or quantifiable or non-controversial pieces of information.
In fact, these may and often do play a very small role.  It doesn't matter
if you're talking about getting a job, getting into a particular school or
residency program, convincing a bank or funding agency to give you money,
or asking someone out on a date.  You, the person doing the convincing
(or "selling"), must take the "raw data" (items on your CV, say) and give
them a positive interpretation or spin, carefully targeting your message
to whatever audience you're in front of (director of a high-powered academic
residency, or the director of a heavily clinical program that frowns on
any kind of research).

Is this a good or bad thing?  I'm not sure -- but it is a reality.  Can it
be changed?  Some might say it's human nature (even a necessary heuristic)
to have non-objective shortcuts to judgment or evaluation -- maybe hardwired
or psychologically/socially/culturally determined in some irreversible way.
I'd welcome anyone's hypothesis!


--john  (j-moen@uchicago.edu)
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:06:49 EST
From:         THOMAS BARTMAN <bartmant@HAL.HAHNEMANN.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Being famous, etc

> The fact is, with a big lab at a major research institution, you are more
> likely to have a greaater impact on your field than if you are in a small lab
> at an obscure place.  Of course, you can bring up all sorts of exceptions to
> these rules (the lat Dr. Mc Clintock being a good example),

> Tony

Let's not put the cart before the horse!  Are these scientists more productive
because they are at big universities, or did they get to be at the big
universities because they are productive!  I know from my time in Cambridge
that most professors at MIT and Harvard made their name BEFORE becoming
professors there.  In fact, I've heard (a rumor?) that no assistant professor
hired into Biology at Harvard has ever progressed up to a tenured position.
The only way to become a tenured prof at Harvard is to have done that
somewhere else first, and then be stolen away by Harvard.

Maybe Dr McClintock felt that she could do it on her own and wanted to be
known for herself and her work, not for where she was a professor!

Tom Bartman, 4/7 Temple University
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Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 17:56:27 CST
From:         John Grant Moen <jgm1@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject:      doc@uiuc's 7-jan-93 post

I don't want to get into debating the meaningfulness or fairness of
"prestige" (or, more importantly, "perceived prestige"), but the fact
is that it's a part of life for MD/PhDs as well as academically-minded
MDs.  So, if one has ambitions of running a major lab, or becoming famous,
or doing something unusual (say, an MD/PhD who wants to do neurosurg along
with sociology...), then one had better have the bluest of blue-chip
credentials on one's CV, regardless of whether you believe they *really*
mean much or represent reality.  Enough said.

--john    (j-moen@uchicago.edu)
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Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 20:47:41 -0600
From:         "Joel I. Shenker" <jshenker@S.PSYCH.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      MSP

Just for the record, John Moen raised the question about funding for
the MD-PhD progrram at Illinois-Urbana/Champaign, so I thought I'd
supply the information.

Our program has about 150 MD/PhD students who pursue whatever sequence they
individually wish (in terms of sequencing MD years and PhD years), so long
as it is agreed upon by the MD/PhD director and the student's graduate
research advisor in the annual conferences each of us has with those two.
Irrespective of whether we are doing an MD year or a PhD year, any
funding or tuition waivers are entirely the responsibility of the
student, and are usually obtained through the student's graduate
department.  So, for example, I managed to get a tuition waiver and
some stipend money during my M1 and M2 medical school years by doing
some teaching at the same time as I am taking medical coursework.
Others are able to arrange for an RA from a generous research advisor,
for whom the student may continue to do some work while continuing
medical studies.  I even know of a few people who, after completing
their PhD requirements, were able to arrange a post-doc while they also
pursued their 3rd and 4th year clerkships (presumably, such people did a
clerkship or two and then broke for a few months to continue their
research).  At a minimum, the MD/PhD office can usually arrange for a
tutition waiver for us while in medical school years.
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:37:11 -0600
From:         "Joel I. Shenker" <jshenker@S.PSYCH.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      reality

John--

I agree with way you put the situation.  I'm not sure that the "reality"
that you offer is ALWAYS the case--different people in different
situations will sometimes respond to "spin," sometimes to raw empiricism
and, more often, somewhere in between.

I guess what bothers me is not so much THAT such a state of affairs
exists.  What bothers me is the extent to which it exists and a lot of
pretending goes on that it does not exist.  The very same residency
director who thinks I am wonderful or awful simply because of the
letters behind my name may turn around and say that he or she is being
objective. The very same person who assumes that I am incapable or
capable of something based on sterotypes may then condescendingly
preeach to me about how I should be more this or less that.  It's the
hypocrisy that bothers me, I guess.  THAT is the reality that I think I
must prepare for, and it bothers me that I should have to do so.
Perhaps I should not have expected otherwise.  And I am sure that I am
being somewhat idealistic and naive, but that's just the way it is.
Happily, I think we are going back and forth here about situations
that occur only SOME of the time, so there may be islands of sanity out
there.
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