HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: A Better Year Ahead
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 00:32:02 GMT

In article <18205@autodesk.COM> owen@autodesk.com (D.  Owen
Rowley) writes:

>In article <1992Dec19.054427.18239@macc.wisc.edu>,
>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>>it seems to me that at a minimum we can agree that
>>who and what we are is not an appropriate debate.  To
>>that end, perhaps we should now create and ratify a
>>formal charter, and when people post inappropriate things
>>here, send it to them with some form of cease and desist
>>message.

>how best shall we accomplish this, whta sort of official
>recognition can be codified?

Well, as far as the FAQ is concerned, Chris Thomas has been
very dedicated about creating, updating, and regularly
sending it out (most recently 12/1).  I have saved that, and
when I have enough time, I've thought I might look it over
(it has been a long, long time since I actually read it).  I
haven't asked, but I expect Chris would accept suggestions
witha view to making changes if they seemed necessary to
enough people.  Toward that end, perhaps others could get
involved and look at this with an eye to promoting the
interests recently expressed.

Similarly, though I don't think I have any copies ready to
hand of the charter-like first posting, something could be
fashioned in the way of a charter from that, I think.  I
just assume that interested people will form themselves into
an ad hoc committee to carry out that work.

As there is no cabal (ignore those pod-like things under
your bed), nor even a ruling elite, I see no reason why
anyone should be waiting for a go signal; whoever wants to
do this stuff could start any time they want to.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: goldfarb@husc4.harvard.edu (Warren Goldfarb)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Imitating Turing (was: Liberty (was: (never m
Date: 27 Dec 92 02:43:14 GMT
Organization: Harvard University

In article <6889@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca> kn@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Keith Niall) writes:
>
>I had heard (from a straight academic, no less) that Montague died
>as the result of a hard sex scene with a trick. That translates 
>into found strangled with a chain in his bathtub. Is there anything
>in this ? It seems like pure urban legend to me.
>

The story that was circulated when it happened was that Montague
was fond of picking up rough trade; and one such murdered him in
his house (with the unspoken implication that the motivation
was either anger or larceny).  It wouldn't surprise me if this
were a sanitized version, and the version above were perhaps
more accurate.  I'll make inquiries.

Warren Goldfarb
Department of Philosophy
Harvard University
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Date: 31 Dec 92 19:48:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec31.194838.29120
Organization: insert anything here

smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
>Yes, do you think smart-alec replies help anything?  It's amazing 
>that I can sit here and agree that companies should find ways for 
>covering SO's, and I *still* get flak for it.  

	OK, Walter, no flak: please share with us the letter
you sent to the HR division at HP encouraging them to start
allowing gay and lesbians spouses have all the same privs as
heterosexual sposuses...  Maybe some of us can use it in letters
we're writing for your own companies...

	What other things have you tried?
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Freudenschade?
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 07:43:20 GMT

Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:

>Rod Williams asks:
>>[...]
>>Do you suppose that's freudenschade?

>No. Freudenschade would be Sigmund sitting under a tree on a
>beautiful summer's day -- undoubtedly smoking a cigar and 
>stroking his bushy beard as he thought.

...and castigating himself every now and then.

--
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu * John Dorrance * Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico

      You would be surprised at what resides in your insides.
From: jcollier@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU (John Donald Collier)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Is it actually 10%??
Date: 24 Dec 1992 14:34:10 +1100
Organization: University of Melbourne
NNTP-Posting-Host: ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes, of mainstream Christians:

>Of course they do.  They remain silent while their faith is wielded as
>a weapon by a group of anti-gay zealots.  If they really felt that it
>was wrong to persecute people on the basis of their sexual
>orientation, they would do something about the people who were
>maligning their good name.

Well, fortunately there are many who don't remain silent, but you are
right that there are far too many that do. This sort of complicity, 
which is easy to justify ("I didn't do anything to you"), is just
what allowed the Nazis to do as they liked in Germany. I am not 
a Christian, nor even conventionally religious, but I believe that
human nature is such that we are our brothers' keepers, whether we
want to be or not. 
-- 
John Collier 			Email: jcollier@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
HPS -- U. of Melbourne		  	Fax:   +61 3 344 7959
Parkville, Victoria, AUSTRALIA 3052
From: markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Coming out at work - HELP!
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:05:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47600
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

On the subject of something to wear to work...

I have ordered a couple of the "I can't even think straight" t-shirts
to help my coworkers enjoy an inside joke.  I have found that several
of my office friends enjoy the fact that while I am out at work, there
are several people who either just don't get it or choose to ignore
the fact.  As a result, we have lots of fun with puns, double-entendres,
etc.  Doing this has built an interesting support network for me based
on the cluelessness of others.

--mark
--
Mark Morrissey           One Hatred to rule them all.  One Hatred to find them.
markm@cse.ogi.edu        One Hatred to bring them all and in the darkness bind
                         them.  In the land of Bigotry where the Shadows lie.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Austin, TX joins Colo. Boycott
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 04:57:23 GMT

In article <RHAYDEN.92Dec24110720@hqsun2.oracle.com> rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden) writes:
>Wow!  Is there something different about Austin from the rest of
>Texas?

Ron, Austin has had laws supporting equal rights of access for g/l
people as far back as '74 (I believe).  Moreover, it is the home to a
lots of hi-tech companies... most of which lead the rest in
recognizing that diversity in the workforce is what has made America
so great.  And, last but not least, Austin was home to some very hip
hippies... they ran the good ol' boys out of town :)

-- 
|Tom Barrett (TDBear), Sr. Engineer|tom.barrett@amd.com|v:512-462-6856 |
|AMD PCD MS-520 | 5900 E. Ben White|Austin, TX  78741  |f:512-462-5155 |
|"No is yes, And we're all free"   |CO made a #2 no-no... PU!          |
|My views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin  |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Manifesto (LONG) Society to Cut Up Bigotted Assholes
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 12:45:50 GMT

Thumbs up!

--
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu * John Dorrance * Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico

      You're like one of those... 'Cabbage Patch' creatures...
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:53:27 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <18220@autodesk.COM>, owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) wrote:

> > *X*
> > (of course, feminism has *nothing* to do with men, so I suppose
> > the reaction of men is of no concern. but perhaps, some day,
> > all these barking bimbos will realize that if *everything* men
> > do is wrong, then *nothing* they do is wrong, and we can get 
> > back to a more relaxed interaction between the sexes.  until
> > such time, heterosexual men would be well advised to at least
> > consider the fringe benefits of homosexuality...)
> 
> Oh Gawd Matthew...

I think I see why this paragraph has attracted so much attention,
when it was - in fact - somewhat satirical.  I was not clear with
the phrase "if *everything* men do is wrong, then *nothing* they do
is wrong."

I take it people believe I am saying "nothing men do is wrong,"
and mean it literally.  

In fact, I am saying that there *is* a "wrong" behavior ("true"
rape) - and that to claim that all sex is rape masks that.
If all sex is rape, then there is no getting around it -
and Dworkin has essentially invalidated herself.  If *everything*
a man does is wrong, then he is under no obligation to 
change his behavior - i.e. *nothing* he does is wrong.

*X*
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: correction to end-of-year reading
Keywords: mystery writers
Organization: (getting there)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 14:07:25 GMT

Trust zwicky@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) to ask the question I
so carefully avoided.  About Sarah Caudwell's books, he writes:
 >mara says her mother read two of the books without noticing
 >that no hints were given as to hilary tamar's sex.  the question is:
 >what mental picture did mara's mother have of hilary tamar?

Mom thought Tamar was a man.  It never occurred to her to doubt it.
I sent her back to reread the books thinking of Tamar as a woman.

 >i can't judge caudwell's knowledge of law (she *is* a lawyer,
 >however) or cricket or various of the other domains on which
 >her characters discourse in such detail, but she seems sound on
 >textual analysis and linguistics.

Yes, I've enjoyed her on textual analysis as well.  I'd love to
quote but (aren't you getting tired of hearing this?  I'm sure
getting tired of having to say it!) those books are packed.

 >arnold (impressed to find a lawyer who knows about fricatives
 >  and neat stuff like that)

Oooh, Arnold, I'm sure we could find you other lawyers who'd talk to
you about fricatives if you wanted.

But seeing that excerpt, which started:
 > `Oh,' said Julia again, `you must be Leonidas.' 
reminded me of a very different series of books, featuring a
detective named Leonidas Witherall (or something like that) who
looked like Shakespeare and taught at a boys' prep school in New
England.  I'm sure he didn't accent the penultimate syllable, and
his 'd' was certainly a stop.


-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mritchie@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael S Ritchie)
Subject: Icicle Music (GLB Xmas Fiction)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:50:54 GMT

I was stunned to discover, in my obsessive seasonal reading of
any and all things Christmassy, a story by Michael Bishop called
Icicle Music which is the first gay Christmas fantasy I've run
across in years of running across Holiday literature of every size,
shape, and stripe.  It's in a collection called Spirits of
Christmas (Hartwell is one of the editors) and, though I don't want
to give too much away, it reminded me of Geoff Ryman's novel Was,
from earlier this year.  Anyone else read it, or anything else
by Bishop (who, to my knowldege is not a gay writer)?  Anyone know
of any other GLB Christmas fiction I've missed?

--Michael
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Capitalization (dubious MOTSS content)
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:20:44 GMT


Gather round, children, I need some help.

I'm writing a document specifying the design
and architecture rules for all new applications
at Citicorp (and me, a boy from the suburbs - imagine!)
and I'm having a problem with capitalization.

I refer to certain documents - the Business Requirements
Specification is one of them - by one of:
the name: The Business Requirements Specification
the initials: The BRS
the short name: The specification

It's the last one that has me stumped.  There are no
other specifications (so no ambiguity) but it somehow
doesn't seem right to have the short name as lower case.

The same problem exists for Service Subsystem - "the
subsystem" or "the Subsystem"?  Business Model - "the
model" or "the Model"?

The closest example I can find is "Take 12th Street -
the street after 11th" which makes me think I'm doing
the right thing.

Any suggestions?  As usual, thanks in advance.

-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Muffin on Parade
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 08:59:33 GMT

jprigeon@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Prigeon) writes:

>Hi Everybody!!!!!

Hiyahiyahiya! Another former Nebraskan steps forward!

>Anyway, I've spent some time figuring out my smurf and bear codes.
>Allow me to share them with you:

>S4 b g l+ y+ z n o- x- a+ u v- j++

I don't remember what all this means, but he's basically Joe McIntyre
from the New Kids on the Block, stretched out.

>B0 f+ t++ w- g s

Mmm hmm, wouldn't know, that's for damn sure, that too, that too, I
got that impression :).

>One thing about the bear code has puzzled me, though.  Does anyone really
>use e+ or e++?  IMHO, it sounds like telling someone at a bar that you're,
>oh, a millionare or dated Tom Cruise (or Wilford Brimley for the ursine 
>types), or something. 

I thought of putting e--! in my bear codes just for a laugh.

>jap, wondering just exactly what the demarcation is between e+ and e++.

*Gasp!* and *Eeek!!!*
--
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu * John Dorrance * Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico

      You would be surprised at what resides in your insides.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jackies@fc.hp.com (Jackie Sheddy X6958)
Subject: Re: long-term relationships...success stories, please...
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:34:44 GMT
Organization: Jackie Sheddy at not quite in limbo 
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.3 PL6]

Joseph M. Gerkman (gerkman@binky.csc.wsu.edu) wrote:
: 
: Hi all!
: 
: Thanks for all of the information about same-sex marriages, ....  
: But I have another question for all of you...I kinda want to hear some  
: success stories of long-lasting relationships...hopefully ones that are  
: still going strong...I hope this doesn't sound silly...
: 
: Joe Gerkman
: gerkman@binky.csc.wsu.edu

	Last month,  Chrystal and I celebrated our 6th  anniversary.  We
	met through  mutual  friends.  We had both been  through  rather
	nasty  breakups,  hers three  years  before we met, mine a month
	before.  We stay  together  because we are very much in love and
	we are  committed  to each other.  I don't want  anyone else and
	neither does she.

	Last year in November,  we  celebrated  our 5th  anniversary  by
	having our Holy Union.  We contacted the pastor of MCC in Denver
	and went through the ceremony.  It was great!


--
Regards,

Jackie
jackies@hpxxx.fc.hp.com
Hate is NOT a Family Value!!

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes)
Subject: Re: "cures" for homosexuality
Organization: Thinkage Ltd.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 13:20:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.211916.3812@psych.toronto.edu> jarvis@psych.toronto.edu (Brian Jarvis) writes:
>In article <1992Dec22.174915.14562@midway.uchicago.edu> elle@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Dec22.170637.15042@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> 
>> mudge@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (MUDGE BRIAN WAYNE) writes:
>>>  From THE GAY BOOK OF LISTS, 11 Alleged Cures for Homosexuality, 
>>>5.) The love of a good woman.
>>
>>I dunno.  You really think this would cure me?
>
>Like so many worth-while projects, the benefit is likely in the effort.
>If nothing else, it'll provide me an opportunity to kidnap Cliff while
>you're busy.

get in line buster! :-)

oh, but i forget about cliff's feelings about this,
  cliff,
   would you prefer to be kidnapped singley, or en-group ?-)

oooooh, we could then make kidnap-videotapes to send ellen assuring her
he is well and functioning...

   -ken, starting his eggnog early this year

-- 
   - Ken Dykes, Thinkage Ltd., Kitchener, Ontario, Canada    [43.47N 80.52W]
         kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca   postmaster@thinkage.com   thinkage!kgdykes
         harley-request@thinkage.on.ca             kgdykes@math.uwaterloo.ca
From: mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: long-term relationships...success stories, please...
Date: 29 Dec 92 18:06:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpuerca.C018zM.E21
Organization: a stone mountain of Kudzu

In <1992Dec27.155552.20863@spdcc.com> rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:

>bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) writes:
>>It's been my observation that there are four 'crisis periods' in a 
>>relationship. T
>>Between 3 months and 1.5 years you will learn 
>>whether leaving the cap off the toothpaste is grounds for divorce.  
>>Finally, sometime between 7 and 10 years you will resign yourself
>>to hearing the following question every evening for the rest of your 
>>life: "I dunno, what do YOU want to do for dinner?"

>	I think for us these two are reversed... we actually have
>a script for this...

>	Person 1: What do you want for dinner?
>	Person 2: I dunno, what do yOU want for dinner?
>	Person 1: (Realizing that this is an infinite loop)
>			White Castle Burgers it is!

>	That usually prompts Person 2 to think of SOMETHING in
>short order... :-)

In the South, just substitute "Krystal" or "Po' Folks" for "White
Castle" and you get precisely the same response (although IMHO a
Krystal and White Castle _are_ the same burger :-).

>	Note that this also works in groups of people where N is greater
>than 2.  The person suggesting WCB (or something, like Denny's) has
>to actually start heading for the car, etc. which makes some of the
>other people believe [s]he is actually serious about it --- triggering
>a defense mechanism and hopefully a better suggestion... :-)

Or at least something different.  The variation on this theme is "I
don't care -- you pick something.  Anything is OK."  When "anything"
turns out to _not_ be what person #2 really wanted, all hell can 
break loose.

It can be especially scary at times -- two hungry, country bears wanting
food but not agreeing on what to eat (except each other ;-).  It's
really fun those nights I want, say, Italian and Bobby wants Chinese.

That's when the Food Court at the Mall tends to beckon -- a little
something for everybody.

--
=======================================================================
 Mike Reaser, Hewlett-Packard N. Amer. Response Center - Atlanta
 Internet:  mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com
 NBCS: B5 f t w g+ k s              I barely speak for myself, so
 #include <standard.disclaimer>       don't make me speak for HP
=======================================================================
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Maria Montez vs Burl Ives, or Lighten Up a Little, Folks
Date: 27 Dec 1992 22:09:12 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <72490@cup.portal.com> 
Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
> Adolphson whines:

No, I wasn't "whining".

*X* wrote:
> >> It seems I can provoke you even easier than hairless twinks can 
> >> provoke that GDM fellow. 

I responded:
> >Yeah, well, I take this stuff as seriously as that humorless 
> >fellow from Glendale takes hair and cigars.
>
> Hm.  I'm "humorless" for responding to what I find important,
> but *you* are just being a good net.citizen for Pointing Out
> The Truth when it's something *you* find important.

Heavens, George, I can laugh about the stuff I find important,
provided that any criticism is based on fact.  If I were to
call Burl Ives a "hairless twink" -- the exact analogue of 
*X*'s error wrt standards of female beauty from the '30s
through the early '60s -- I'd expect a million flames from
ursinophiles.  I express my tastes and talk about my interests,
and I'm willing to argue about them (into the ground), but it's 
always with a sense of humor *except* for those times when
someone is *way* off base when it comes to the facts.

> Quelle Self-Centered Shithead.
>
> But we knew that already, of course.

<Snore>

> () We believe that to err is human. To blame it on someone
> () else is politics.
> ()      -- Hubert H. Humphrey

() When I see myself on the screen, I look so beautiful I want
() to scream with joy.
()        -- Maria Montez

Arne
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 29 Dec 1992 22:31:57 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Dec30.002532.28638@macc.wisc.edu> 
anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> In article <1hqcccINN8e8@mizar.usc.edu>
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (Arne Adolphson) writes:
> >In any case, if any man were to write about women -- all
> >women, regardless of their political affiliations,
> >ethnicities, or sexualities -- using rhetoric even slightly
> >like that employed by Andrea Dworkin in her screeds against
> >men, he would be dismissed by *everyone* as a crank or
> >worse.
>
> Your contention is somewhat shakey, I think.  Very
> considerable numbers of woman-hating remarks do get
> published, 

Oh, of course there are are woman-hating things that get 
published.  What I'm talking about goes far beyond the 
kind of "women should be kept barefoot and pregnant" remarks 
I think you're attempting to focus my attention on.

> and it seems to me the writers are quite often
> *not* roundly denounced as idiots and fools by the general
> population.

Hmmmmm.  Compare the very different receptions accorded
Andrea Dworkin's *non-fiction* book _Intercourse_ and
Bret Easton Ellis' slasher-novel _American Psycho_.  
And yes, I think Dworkin's work is fully as reprehensible
and inhuman as Ellis'.

> While this too is not very demonstrable, there
> clearly is a much smaller tendency to hold over-zealous
> woman-haters accountable (their numbers are massive)

Oh really?  Do you actually know people who claim that all
women are evil, vicious, and not merely murderous but genocidal
in intent *because* they're women?  

> than to hold over-zealous man-haters (their numbers are much
> smaller) accountable.

I'm not particularly interested in the numbers game.  Yes, our
culture is misogynist (and racist, and homophobic, and classist,
and...) to the core.  That does not excuse the kind of hate-filled 
trash that flows from the pens of the Dworkins and Farrakhans 
of the world.

Arne
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: Muffin on Parade
Date: 30 Dec 92 20:53:48 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, d000dlphi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David Speakman) wrote:
>whatever that is between your navel and... 

The "goody trail."

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson@ocean.dnet.nasa.gov
"Home is where your roof landed" - t-shirt seen in Miami
"We Will Rebuild (tm)" - majority community response to Andrew
"We Will Redecorate" - gay community response to Andrew