Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:20:20 EDT
From:         mrubyono@SUVM.SYR.EDU
Subject:      Re: East Timor (response

Excerpted from:
> Message-Id:   <9210080210.AA22445@suna7.cs.uiuc.edu>
> Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 21:10:52 -0500
> From: Max Becherer <becherer@suna0.cs.uiuc.edu>
> Subject:      East Timor (Response)
>
> one, he makes a feeble attempt to counter both myself and Charles Scheiner.

No. I think he tried to contrast between yours and Charles' statements.
Here check Ar's words carefully again.
>>Hmmm, I wonder, Charley and Max don't have a similar view here. Charley
>>seems to accept it by using his approach as what my statistician friend
>>calls this as 'cause-effect factor.' But could you talk much about
>>the cause instead? I still don't understand, why some people like to
>>talk about ET instead of talking about the causa in the first place?

>	You are right, US foreign policy certainly has played a role in
>supporting Indonesia's brutal occupation of East Timor.

Why??? Could you tell me more about Reagan's and Bush's foreign policy
that you dont like. Then why you preferably attack Indonesian govt
instead of US govt.? Indonesia's brutal occupation? This is just your
words, isn't it.

>	Are you saying that human rights are none of my business ?

Dont get me wrong, sir. Human right is the right of everybody.
But to spent your energy for helping your local does it make better?

Ar:
>>To lie? If you could have a time to read Time magazine Oct.5, 1992, you
>>will know much what you talking about :-).

Aha!

>    Yes, everywhere, like Burma, Vietnam, INDONESIA, China, South Africa.....
>       Oh, and don't forget Yugoslavia!

But you forget to mention your country if you would like to be fair :-).

> Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:56:06 EDT
> Subject:      Re: Timor Questions
>
> Max Becherer:
>
>  I personally do not know all the details, but certainly Indonesian
>  oppression of their culture plays a role.

What makes you so good if you dont know any detail? Funny, isn't it.
oppression of their culture? What do you mean by culture? Please tell
me what you mean by culture so that I could understand your thought.
Keep the context and lets talk about the development programs in Indon.

As long as I know, since 1971, Indonesia has the 5 Year Plan. The Plan
includes a national program so called Preserving, Maintaining, and
Developing local and national cultures. They mean by culture is
'A persistent patterns of values, norms, beliefs and assumption for
shaping the behavior of individuals and groups and provide a frame
of reference within which to interpret the meaning of events and
actions.' You could read the REPELITA books for the details. A lot
of money to spend for it and so many local, national and international
institutions involved in this program. So, the consequency of having
this program is there will never be a cultural destruction in any place
throughout the country. Every province always got the budget they
proposed to preserve, maintain, develop their local cultures as weel as
to support the national culture. The result of this development since
then? you could read the report on REPELITA at World Bank or Ithaca
or Athens or Japan Foundation. So your assumption on 'oppression of
their culture' based on what? Indeed, such an oppression of certain
culture is totally against PANCASILA and UDD'45. Again, you could read
the books of PANCASILA and UUD'45. Although, there is a resistant to
change in any development, Felix Keesing, in his book 'Stability
and Change' 1997, said that there are several areas of a culture
where change tends to be rapid and achieved. The same has been
happening also around the country since Indonesia implement the
REPELITA. So, we have to work hard to recover the weaknesses and
the mistakes and build up the whole country for the better of our
life including our brothers' and sisters' in ET.

>>  Perhaps, if the Indonesian
>>  government treated the East Timorese people less like animals and more
>>  like human beings, they would be less insistant on being independant.
>>  Ask an East Timorese.
>
>I am INSULTED with your remarks here. We never treated East Timorese
>like animals!!!!! Again if you do not know the details, please
>DO NOT spread any rumours and DO NOT exagerate and make your own
>stories.

Yes it is very insulting and arrogant. I don't see the good of human
right action in this side. Its not polite, indeed. You could ask them
why some East Timorese wanted to be Indonesian. Its fair enough.

>  Not having their culture destroyed sounds like quite a benefit to me.

Again, please tell me what you mean by 'culture.' It would be fair if
you could say 'Not having Native-American or Oz-Aborigin culture
destroyed sounds like quite a benefit to me.' It is equivalent, indeed.
Good luck with your movement.

ruby
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