HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: "BAD" music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 00:32:56 GMT

In article <BxEz10.92I@news.orst.edu> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John  
Stanley) writes:
> In article <1992Nov8.162454.27395@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
> >gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> >
> >>I and a number of other people have suggested (and no one responds to  
> >>these postitive suggestions) that the guideline should be that subject  
> 
> In truth, I have seen responses to this suggestion. The claim that
> nobody has responded to your suggestion is false.
> 
My apologies - at the point when I made this statement I hadn't seen any  
yet. Slow news feed.

> >>lines for discussions and votes should DIRECTKY state what existing  
> >>newsgroups they would affect. Is this too difficult? At least it's a  
> >>suggestion.
> >
> >>I can't imagine a valid reason for a "no" response to this suggestion.
> >
> > Subject: CFV: Making of rec.music.makers.guitar,  
rec.music.makers.bass, rec.music.makers.guitar.tablature,  
rec.music.makers.percussion and renaming rec.music.synth to  
rec.music.makers.synth.
> 
> And then that article passes through a site that truncates the Subject
> line and all that you see is:
> 
> Subject: CFV: Making of rec.music.
> 
> Unless you accept the premise that CFV means "This applies to you", this
> solution is LESS clear than the Subject: that was used. 
> 
Well to be technically correct, rec.music.synth IS in the rec.music.*  
hierarchy, while at the time it wasn't in rec.music.makers.* (which was  
the subject of the CFV). Although I feel that it should have been more  
direct than this, at least "Subject: CFV: Modifications to rec.music.*"  
would have been better.

> Of course, some newsreaders only show a part of long subject lines
> anyway. If you have a newsreader like this, are you going to complain
> because you didn't know that the vote applied to you when your own
> newsreader failed to show it to you? 
> 

There are more creative solutions than this. 

> The answer is: CFV means "this applies to you". Whether it applies
> because it might rename the groups you read, or create new ones that you
> might want to read. If one is so apathetic about possible new groups or
> renamings of current ones that they skip CFV articles, one has no excuse
> for whining about the results of that vote.

Obviously everyone that has seen this thread knows this by now. Will  
everyone in some upcoming vote? Wouldn't some simple changes make it  
easier on them?
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski)
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.dent
Organization: The Information Deli - via Netcom / San Jose, California
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:05:50 GMT

In <BxIHpr.H4@uunet.uu.net> ellswort@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Alec Ellsworth)
writes:

>	I propose that we begin discussion about a new
>mainstream newsgroup named sci.dent.

Great idea, but I like ".dentistry" or ".dental" much better than ".dent".
And is there a reason it's not in the sci.med.* hierarchy?

>The hope I have in proposing this new newsgroup is purely one
>of opening up lines of communication between patients/dentists/
>researchers/dental students. This would allow more people to
>have a forum for discussing their specific concerns in this
>area.

I've been advocating the creation of non-technical consumer level health
care groups in a new hierarchy called "misc.health.*", leaving sci.med.*
for professional/technical discussions.

Currently proposed groups for misc.health.* are misc.health.alternative and
misc.health.allergies; certainly other groups, such as misc.health.general
or misc.health.dental could be placed there as well.

-- 
Peter Kaminski
kaminski@netcom.com
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Islam and Ahmadiyya -- Enough
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:00:06 GMT
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
: [Dislaimer:  I neither know very much nor have anything against either
: Islam or Ahmadiyya.]
: 
: It would seem to me that the discussion of a new group has evolved
: into a religious debate.  I would respectfully suggest that it be
: moved to one of the religious groups; it does not belong here.
: 
: Thank you.
: 
: -- 
: Joshua E. Randall                       randall@minerva.cis.yale.edu

Yes, what a brilliant idea! I totally agree with this.

Let us create a new newsgroup to discuss it --- let's say
soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya  :-) :-) :-)

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink!! :-) :-)

very best reagrds,
Nadeem Malik
nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch
Newsgroups: uk.net,news.groups,soc.culture.british
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should UK groups be sent to UUnet?
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 07:52:38 GMT


In article <1992Nov10.002823.6792@unipalm.co.uk>, Ian@unipalm.co.uk writes...
> 
>I have had a short email conversation with Brian Reid (he of the
>news.lists postings) who is responsible for getting Usenet to, amongst
>other people, the 3000 DEC employees in Britain. He is currently not
>succeeding in sending the UK groups to them.
> 

Well if he's not, then someone else is, because I'm able to read the uk.*
hierarchy

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:52:51 GMT

In article <BxJqHE.HE1@fulcrum.co.uk> igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)  
writes:
> 
> People are told to read the instructions, didn't, and now are
> complaining that they didn't know what was in them?  Do you get out
> much?  I suppose that when you stick your fingers in the mains, ignoring
> the sign saying ``do not stick your fingers in the mains'', you expect
> me to be sympathetic?
> 
This would be a nice simple solution if all one had to know was in the  
"instructions" (which happen to be several documents in several places  
written by various people).

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 14:25:26 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Nov12.115101.14142@wes.on.ca>, tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen) writes:

|> For the last 24 hours (which is as long as we've had r.m.m.s here):
|> 
|>     Group			rec.music.synth	  rec.music.maker.synth
|>     # of articles		79		  45
|>     # of newsgroup flames	35		   1
|>     # of "real" synth articles	44		  44
|> 

And I still don't have r.m.m.s. at my site.
(I have to log on to a machine in NYC to read this group.)

Should I be complaining to my local site?  Or is this the
result of some netnews administrators' not having passed
the group creation message down to my site?

At this point I don't care what the group is called.
I want there to be one group with all the synth discussion.
So can somebody please build it and merge the articles
so that we can be back online again?


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 8 Nov 1992 18:26:46 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>>How long _you_have_read_r.g.f.*_.  Believe me, if you establish your
>>credentials, it will go a long way to helping your proposal pass.
>I've sent you a reply in e-mail.  Anyone else who does consider the
>validity of the proposal is affected by the expereience of the person
>who proposes it may e-mail me and I'll give them an answer also.

How about I post it?   Any objections, especially from cbnorman?

-- 
"Why isn't there a special name for the tops of your feet?"
		-- Lily Tomlin
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: A question, a comment
Date: 11 Nov 92 23:58:07 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <1992Nov10.185944.28723@muddcs.claremont.edu>  
irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
> Comment: Dave Hayes' biggest complaint at this point appears to be that  
many
> readers of rec.music.synth were not aware that a vote was in progress.  
Of
> the suggestions folks have made to insure that, in the future, readers  
of a
> group are made aware of a vote which might affect their group, the best  
I've
> seen so far was the suggestion to supplement the official CFV and RFD
> messages with a individual messages to the affected groups. It could be  
the
> responsibility of the vote-taker or discussion-caller to post these, or  
it
> could simply fall to interested parties; I'd favor the latter.
> 
But with the later, you are not guaranteed that it will occur. Shouldn't  
the responsibility for this belong to the vote-taker or discussion-caller?  
They are the most familiar with their intentions for the proposal. Relying  
on another party to do it is asking for trouble.

> Others have noted that this could all have been avoided if Dave Hayes  
had
> posted a message with a subject along the lines of "Upcoming vote on
> renaming rec.music.synth--read on for more info" to rec.music.synth  
before
> the vote. I believe he admitted that not doing so was an oversight on  
his
> part; so it goes. In the future, interested parties would do well to  
make
> sure that potentially uninformed voting blocs are made aware of the  
upcoming
> vote.

So should the discussion-makers and vote-takers, IMHO.

> 
> So, in summary, I don't think the Guidelines need to be changed. I think
> voting on proposals is, and ought to be, a self-selecting process, but I
> would encourage those who care about a proposal to do what they can to  
"get
> out the vote"--including posting clear announcements to affected groups  
if
> they feel the official announcements aren't sufficient.

That makes life a lot easier doesn't it? Not changing anything? I don't  
think it addresses the issue you were attempting to address and it  
certainly doesn't address other issues that have come up. If someone is  
suggested renaming a group (or removing it depending on your view) I feel  
they should be required to make every effort to make it clear to the  
people they are affecting.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign - give it up cbnorman
Date: 13 Nov 92 19:07:33 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.advocacy
Organization: negligable

In article <BxGvuF.E03@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>In article <1992Nov9.143407.29261@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters) writes:
>>In article <BxFKoD.L3M@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>>>While I'm on a roll...
>>>
>>>I'd like to address another issue raised by opponents of rec.games.frp.campaign.
>>>Namely, many people have disected it and told me basicly that each component of
>>>.campaign can be placed in a different existing .frp newsgroup.  This does
>>>not surprise me, after all, their exists a rec.games.frp.misc group, and
>>>frankly, in any hierarchy where there is a .misc group, there is *some* place
>>>for people to post messages about anything even remotely related to the 
>>>hierarchy.  This is great, and wonderful, and should definitely stay. 
>>>However, obviously, it is not grounds for aborting a new newsgroup as 
>>>otherwise we could just add a .misc group to every existing hierarchy and
>>>thus stop any further discussion of new newsgroups.  And hey, if anyone
>>>wants to create a new hierchy, we can always send them to misc.misc....
>>
>>MISC IS NOT A "STEPCHILD" GROUP OUT OF THE MAINSTREAM CREATED BECAUSE THERE
>>WERE MESSAGES WHICH WERE TOLD THEY NEEDED TO STAY OUT OF THE OTHER GROUPS.
>>MISC is the direct successor to rec.games.frp, the original group.  Every split
>>so far has mades sense from a TRAFFIC point of view.  We have not created ANY
>>groups just because one person wanted it.
>>
>I never suggested that .misc was "created because there were messages
>which were told they needed to stay out of the other groups."  That statement
>has come *completely* from your own mind.

No, it came from the paragraph above the comment.  At least that's what I
get out of "frankly, in any hierarchy where there is a .misc group, there
is *some* place for people to post messages about anything even remotely
related to the hierarchy" and "otherwise we could just add a .misc group
to every existing hierarchy and thus stop any further discussion of new
newsgroups".  It does, indeed, seem that you think that people get told
to go to xxx.misc instead of creating a new group just because .misc is
a dumping ground for malcontents.

><much entertaining but irrelevent history deleted>

If you think it was irrelevent then that explains why you continue.
What is irrelevant is proposing a new group without an understanding
of the current heirarchy, how it developed, and why it is organized
the way it is.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.	:)


		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Fosters!  It's Australian for beer, mate!"
From: stanley@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored20663
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:41:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxBGDL.528
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography

In article <1deivsINNq87@agate.berkeley.edu> shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:
>Just as a hypothetical, suppose a talk.bizarre crowd ...
>Also suppose that ... 
>Also suppose that ...

"Suppose the sun came up in the west..." We should all start building
sundials backwards based on this?

"One plus one equals 2, for sufficiently large values of 1, or
sufficiently small values of 2." 

>and nobody could do anything about it.  Is this true?

Absolutely something could be done about it. They could have voted when
the voting period was open. 

"When it was time for discussing and voting on a change to the
newsgroup I read, I wasn't interested, and I skipped all the articles
that talked about voting until after the voting was over and then I
became interested and want everyone to do it all again so I can be
interested this time."

And, even now, there is still something they can do about it. Start an
RFD to rename r.whatever.it.is back to rec.whatever.it.was. Then hold
another vote. In the meantime, stop complaining that a vote you weren't
interested in didn't turn out the way you liked.
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:56:55 GMT

>ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:
>>On the subject of a revote, I intended to ask Dave Hayes publicly. . .

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>I would accept the results of a revote. This person obviously has trouble
>talking to me directly, because I have no email from this person. 


1. I felt no need to email you since I found the answer to my question
in another message.  Besides, I wouldn't want to mess up your precious
support ratio in your mailbox.  There was also no sense in asking because
had you said you wouldn't accept an unfavorable outcome in the revote,
it would be clear that you were only making this noise because you
didn't like the results, not because you saw a problem with this vote.
Therefore, your only possible answer was "yes," which answers nothing.

2. I wasn't replying to one of your messages nor was I speaking only
to you.  Had I been, I would have used the second person pronoun.  Get
some perspective.

-sz
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:03:42 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <2B0003E2.32D3@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
> >They are "open" to people that have a certain amount of "net  
experience".
> 
> Patently false.  It (the "caring" group) is open to anyone who knows
> how how to participate, and that knowledge is readily available to
> even the greenest newbie if he will but read news.announce.newusers.
> 
Not "Patently false". And I would appreciate it if you could express your  
opinions and such and not as statement of fact.

I've asked time and time again for someone to show explicitly where all  
the information required is presented. So far the only response had been  
"within the messages themselves" (that was paraphrased) which to me isn't  
much of an answer. It sure as hell isn't in the guidelines.

> >Please move on.
> 
> What a joke.  Move on, yourself.

It's difficult to so when people fall back on the same simple argument  
without supporting it with anything other than bullish retorts. Show me  
where all this is clear to a new user (or even a not-so-new casual user)  
without being burned or having read an RFD or CFV (assuming that the terms  
are defined in such message -- they aren't necessarily).
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:11:48 GMT

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>Usually people vote out of spite (which is also vote fraud IMHO) against
>>the instigator.
>Is it vote fraud to vote out of spite against a President who opposes
>term limits?

That's not spite...that's an issue. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

It has been said that man is a rational animal.  All my life I have
been searching for evidence which could support this.
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
From: fenner@snobol.cs.psu.edu (Bill Fenner)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: Penn State Computer Science
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:14:41 GMT

In article <BxG2xx.AAy@ccu.umanitoba.ca> snewman@ccu.umanitoba.ca (S. Newman) writes:
| "CFV: 2nd WARNING, We are going to change YOUR newsgroup."

Ah, so when I'm reading news.announce.newgroups, and I hit "=", I'll see

 663 RFD: Changing YOUR newsgroup.
 664 2nd RFD: We will rename THIS NEWSGROUP!
 665 CFV: Changing YOUR newsgroup.
 666 RFD: New newsgroup sci.fuzzlebunnies
 667 2nd CFV: Changing YOUR newsgroup.

The newsgroup affected should be in the subject, for those who only read
news.announce.newgroups.

  Bill
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: To keep the r.m.s rename is _not_ elitist (was Re: *BAD*...)
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:08:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.160559.22623@u.washington.edu>  
gwangung@carson.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang) writes:
> In article <1992Nov8.235836.6224@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com  
(Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> >In article <2AFD46B2.8A93@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)  
writes:
> >> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
> >> >According to Lazlo Nibble:
> >> >What a completely elitist attitude.
> >> No.
> >It's elitist because the only class of people that understood the  
> >implications of the articles are those who are intimately familiar with  
> >net guidelines, and a subject line that was descriptive would have  
> >prevented that.
> 
> 	No, it's elitist because it's expected folks can chew gum and pat  
their
> tummies at the same time.

How is this comment even CLOSE to the topic? Do you actually read and  
think about the content of messages you reply to or do you automatically  
generate these random responses?

> 	Jeezus.  This is RIDICULOUS.

With counter-arguments such as yours, it is indeed.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Furr)
Subject: Dave Hayes, You're A Dork
Followup-To: alt.fan.dave-hayes
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 05:32:47 GMT

Dave, you're a dork.  Get a life.  Stop babbling.


Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:31:22 GMT

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>the CFV?  Doesn't matter: "CFV" was in the subject line, which should
>have alerted everyone to a post which is likely to affect the
>structure of the group you're currently reading.

To a newbie, CFV can mean "Creamed French Vittles".  Or, "Criminal Forgery
Violators". 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

It has been said that man is a rational animal.  All my life I have
been searching for evidence which could support this.
Newsgroups: news.groups