HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 15:58:28 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Jan 30

                    Saturday, January 30, 1993

Hebrews 11:1-2, 8-19        Luke 1              Mark 4:35-41

                          FAITH-FULL?

"Faith is confident assurance concerning what we hope for, and conviction about
 things we do not see." --Hebrews 11:1

Faith is an assurance.  This confident assurance concerns what we hope for but
can't see.  We are saved by faith in Jesus (Eph 2:8).  "All depends on faith"
(Rm 4:16).  Without faith, it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).  The
conquerors of the world are those who have faith that Jesus is the Son of God
(I Jn 5:5).  When Jesus comes back a second and final time, He will see if
there is any faith on this earth (Lk 18:8).  Therefore, we definitely need
faith.

Faith is a gift from God.  He gives us the gift of faith by giving us Himself.
We accept the Gift of God Himself by totally giving our lives to Jesus.  Then
we can have a deep, personal relationship with the Father through the Son and
in the Spirit.  In this relationship, we develop a deep faith.  If we resist
the temptation to take control of our lives, if we don't try to provide all our
needs ourselves, we will see God father us and deepen our faith in Him.  If we
take up the daily cross, we will believe ever more deeply in the crucified
Jesus.  If we let it be done unto us according to God's word (see Lk 1:38), we
will develop faith in the Holy Spirit, Who teaches us (Jn 14:6) to hear Him by
hearing the word (see Rm 10:17).  The purpose of life is to have faith, grow
in faith, and walk by faith in God (II Cor 5:7).


Prayer:  Father, by faith in You may I do what I've never done before.

Promise: "The wind fell off and everything grew calm.  Then He said to them,
         `Why are you so terrified?  Why are you lacking in faith?'"
         Mk 4:39-40

Praise:  Jesus healed Mark of colon cancer.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
 Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
 Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
               Archdiocese of Cincinnati, October 15, 1992.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:59:26 -0500
From:         URSIC@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: The Real Presence

Jeff Brooks <JEFF@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU> writes:
>In article <930118090730.2e00d6c1@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM>, URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
>says:
>>My goodness, Gordon, how you love to extrapolate. What my statement "tends"
>>to do is leave supernatual and divine mysteries to God. Simply knowing that
>>Christ is present would seem to be the important concept to teach rather
>>than the absolute "how".

>In this instance I would certainly say that "absolute how" is unattainable --
>the Real Presence is a Mystery -- but some form of "how" or "what" is
>quite important to know.

Thank you, Jeff, for affirming my belief that transubstantiation cannot
be deemed "infallible", but only the most "palatable" to the majority
of Catholics.

>  Like the question that named the manna, the
>important thing here is: "What are the things that before were bread and
>wine?"  Are they only bread and wine?  Do they contain bread and wine?
>Are they become the body of the Incarnate Word?  Do they contain the
>body of the Incarnate Word?
>The answer is important here.  Since at least the time of Saint Augustine --
>probably we have documentation back to the time of Saint Cyprian -- the
>latria or adoration given to God Himself has been paid to the sacred
>elements after the Consecration.  If the Church has the wrong answer,
>she may well have been committing idolatry and teaching it for 1700 years.
>God raised up prophets again and again to warn Israel against idolatry.
>Has the Church done the same, and been left unwarned?
>Simply knowing that "Christ is present" is not enough;  the modes in which
>He is present are also important.  If you walk into the room, Christ is
>become present.  Should I fall down in adoration?   Definitely not,
>according to the teaching of Acts and Revelation.  If consecrated bread
>and wine and brought into the room, what should I do?  If it is not
>the true Body born of the Virgin Mary and I adore it, I commit idolatry.
>If it is, and I do not, I ignore the immediate presence of my Lord and
>my God under the sacramental veils.  How can I dare decide not to ask?
>And how can the Church dare to leave me uninstructed in such a matter?

This is a nice little pet theory, but I wouldn't stake my eternal life
on it:-) But seriously, I think you're getting a little carried away
with this "idolatry" stuff. I'll stake my eternal life on the belief
that Christ is present, the how/mystery part I'll leave to God.
Doesn't it seem a wee bit pretentious to demand of God that He reveal
how He does His mysteries, either through His Church or us? - J.J.
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From: jocallag@artin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Re: Married Roman Catholic...
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 03:42:03 GMT

In article <9301201840.AA03929@trent.noname> "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM> writes:
>
>So then just the "penalty" is imposed without excommunication?  What
>is the difference then of a canonical excommunication?

You're Code of Canon Law ought to say.  I don't have one, so
I'm writing from memory here.

In excommunication one is "cast out" of the Church.  Inability to
receive the sacraments is not so much a punishment as a result of
not being in the Church.  Sins that do not incur the exommunication
do not "cast one out" of the Church.
I believe it is the case that one who has been excommmunicated must
seek the approval of the local bishop in order to return.  A priest may
not do this on his own authority, though it can be delegated to him
by the bishop, as I understand is often the case in questions of abortion
and the automatic excommunication that is incurred.

On the other hand, a priest may give absolution to one who is within the
Church.

By the way, anybody ever seen the incredible excommunication seen in the
film Beckett, starring Peter O'Toole and Richard Burton?

The Catholic Church is also not the only religious body that excommunicates.

The Jewish philosopher Benedict Spinoza was ecommunicated by his local
community.  I seem to recall reading the decree somewhere-- quite horrendous
language.  But my memory may be playing tricks on me.

Peace,
John


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From: norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak)
Subject: Re: Edward Schillebeeckx (sp?) writings & Justification by Faith...
Reply-To: norris@mit.edu
Organization: l'organisation, c'est moi
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 03:16:37 GMT

In article <9301251923.AA21441@courant.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>, ALHY@SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (J Scott Berg) writes:
|> In your message of Mon, 25 Jan 93 10:49:31 PST you write:
|> >     If you want orthodox Catholic writings, don't read Edward Schileebeecx.
|> >     He is not orthodox at all.  You would be better served by the various
|> >     books published by Ignatius Press (2515 McAllister St., San Francisco,
|> >     CA 94118, USA; call 800-537-0390 and ask for a catalog).
|> 
|> This is not really correct, as far as I can tell.  Some of his
|> writings, particularly those dealing with transubstantiation, got him
|> into trouble.  However, many of his writings are considered orthodox
|> by everyone I've ever known. 

To be particular, his early writings (for example, his mariological
works in the early 60's) contain a lot of good sound teaching, but his
later works became more unorthodox; his view of ministry, for example,
speculates that in case of need a community could elect and ordain a
priest by itself.

---
Richard Aquinas Chonak, norris@mit.edu, Usenet addict, INTP
250,000 marched for life in DC on Jan 22!
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From: cease@carina.unm.edu (Cecilia De Blasi)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: The Real Presence
Date: 24 Jan 1993 03:53:48 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
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In article <930122153109.2e01a69c@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>
>If He really wanted to make people believe in the Church's pet
>theory on transubstantiation, He'd single out some Sunday and have
>all hosts become organically human flesh. In fact, if He wanted to
>show the importance of His maleness, He'd chose some other organ than
>his heart:-)(sorry, couldn't resist) - J.J.

Hmmmmmmm.  How do *you* know what God would do?  Do you know His
mind so well?  Please note that this question has nothing to do
with the particular issue being debated in this thread.

- Cecilia De Blasi



-- 
| courtesy of Cease of the Not Well Defined at This Time |
|        cease@unmb.bitnet    cease@carina.unm.edu       |
|    We're only immortal for a limited time.  - Rush     |
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 15:02:55 MST
From:         mlj@EVOLVING.COM
Subject:      Re: The Real Presence
              Jan 22, 93 10:44 pm

>
> Being Anglican myself, 'Real Presence' to me means that the sacrament is
> *not* symbolic; Christ is present in the sacrament, the 'outward and material
> sign of an inward and spiritual grace '; I don't treat the bread
> and wine as if they were merely bread and wine; but I don't worry too much
> about the mechanics.  So for me, receiving the sacrament in a Roman Catholic
> Church would be the same as receiving it in my own church.
>
> Joan Rasch   internet Rasch@c-h.bwh.harvard.edu
>              FidoNet  jrasch 1:101/230
>

If one truly believes in the "Real Presence" whether in receiving Communion or
in adoring the Blessed Sacrament, then the 'mechanics' are of great importance.
The fundamental differences between the two churches, Roman and Anglican
concerning the 'mechanics', point out that receiving the Sacrament in a
Roman Catholic Church is NOT the same as receiving It in the Anglican Catholic
Church.

Michael Johns  mlj@evolving.com
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia Campus Computing, 314-882-2000
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:06:26 CST
From:         Diane Jennings <CCDIANE@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The tragic tale of a moral theologian.

I dont understand.. is everyone on his side or hers?  I think
he is wrong.. spouting off as a Catholic, yet telling Catholics
and anyone else in the room that abortion is your CHOICE.. I
think he better rethink his CHOICE of Religion...
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:36:47 PST
From:         "Greg Wolff, MISG, ICS::, MSO1-1/J50" <wolff@ICS.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      RE: Deacons and their academic requirements

    I believe that the standard for Permanent Deacons in the USofA is a
    three year, part time, formation program.  The program is run by the
    office of religious life, usually(?), in each particular diocese.

                                            In Christ the Savior

                                            Greg Wolff
                                            wolff@ics.enet.dec.com
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Re: Role of the Papacy (was Re: Homosexual acts)
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:54:53 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-22269]: jupiter


In article <9301211327.AA03894@umsa.umd.edu>,         "Alfred S. Chavez" <achavez@UMSA.UMD.EDU> writes:
> Ray Lang wrrote:
> >Very few bishops are professionally active theologians.  Only a
> >relative handful have earned a theological doctorate, and that was at
> >the beginning of their careers.  Most have little or no record of
> >teaching at the graduate level, publishing in scholarly journals, or
> >of holding leadership positions in professional societies.
> 
> Others will point this out, I'm sure, but the same can be said for all of
> the original 12 apostles, and indeed, of the Master Himself.

What's your point?  Are you saying bishops _today_ shouldn't
consider the findings of theologians and other scholars when
they teach?  Should they be able to teach whatever they think
scripture means without regard to the painstaking and diligent
work of scripture scholars?  Should they tell us how to live
in today's world without the benefit of trying to understand
contemporary sociology and psychology?  And if they do teach
us while ignoring relevant scholarship, why should we put any
confidence in what they say?

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 10:58:35 PST
From:         "Greg Wolff, MISG, ICS::,
              MSO1-1/J50 25-Jan-1993 1356" <wolff@ICS.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      What is Truth?

    Ray Lang (lang@cs.tulane.edu) writes:

>Some of what the Vatican teaches is the Truth.  Some of it isn't.

    Tell us then.  How do you answer Pilates question to Christ:

                     "What is Truth?"

                                            In Christ the Savior

                                            Greg Wolff
                                            wolff@ics.enet.dec.com
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: directions
Date: 25 Jan 1993 20:00:58 GMT
Organization: UW Computing
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I see no reason for a major split - not that long ago it was the Dutch that was
promoted as the "splinter" ... we Americans will do our time as the whipping-person and then move on.  No sweat
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: directions
Date: 26 Jan 1993 19:32:14 GMT
Organization: UW Computing
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In article <eharbin.728073719@convex.convex.com>, eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin) writes:

|> Those of us who take traditional stands don't feel particularly sealed
|> off from conflict. To the contrary, if you really want to get beaten
|> about the head and shoulders, expresss reservations about the regnant
|> point of view today, which is implacably 'progressive.' Here's a test:
|> you're from Harvard, a center of enlightenment. Stand up in a public place
|> first opposing abortion, then supporting it. See which position draws
|> the brickbats....
|> 
But what about those of us who consider ourselves "traditional" - following a
2000 year tradition of spiritual theology - that so-called "traditionalist"
call liberal?  An easy way to avoid real involvment in the world is to take
up a single cause that defines "the in group" - an example is a fundamentalist
church to which a friend belongs that insists there were 4 not 3 crosses on
Calvary and that those who deny it are condemned to hell.  One may oppose
abortion on moral grounds and still not believe that legal prohibitions are the
best way to ensure moral behavior.  One may support legal prohibitions against
abortion and not believe that public demonstrations are the best way to achieve
the goal.  To be traditional is to insist on the sanctity of life, on the
image of God in man, in the primacy of God's love and concern for all people
of all times (born and unborn; alive and dead since God is outside time).

Being in conflict (Harban's verbage) does not imply an engagement in the
complexity and ambiguity of the real world (Rasch's verbage) - conflict
(dividing the world into us and them) is a very good way of sealing oneself
off from real engagement and conflict.  It is much easier to participate in
blanket anti-abortion demonstrations (a good thing) than to deal one-on-one
with the gut-wrenching decisions/situations that lead to an individual choosing
an abortion. Remember that all of us are capable of truly good acts only thru
the grace of God; failure is a very human condition. Being engaged in the
real world demands love and empathy for the individual choosing an abortion
while at the same time not condoning the act.
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Bishop Spong GEnie conference transcript
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 21:03:07 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)


(cross-posted to Anglican and Free Catholic mailing lists)

Bishop Spong was the guest on a GEnie RoundTable Conference last week.  I have
the transcript of that conversation available on my mail-server as SPONGRTC.TXT
for those of you interested.

To use the mailserver, send a message to:

mail-server@mintir.new-orleans.la.us

with the following in the body:

get spongrtc.txt

and it'll go out to you...




|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 06:05:08 PST
From:         "Greg Wolff, MISG, MSO1-1/J50,
              dtn 223-0855 28-Jan-1993 0904" <wolff@WAYHIP.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Jan 28, feast of St. Thomas Aquinas, words from Pope John Paul II

                                January 28

                     The Genius of St. Thomas Aquinas

    His realistic and historical method, a fundamentally optimistic and
    open-minded one, not only makes St. Thomas _Doctor Communis Ecclesiae_,
    "Common Doctor of the Church," as Paul VI called him ... but also makes
    him _Doctor Humanitatis_, because he was always prompt and disposed to
    receive the human values of all cultures.  The Angelic Doctor, Thomas,
    may well affirm, "Veritas in seipas fortis est et nulla impugnatione
    convellitur"  -- "Truth is strong in itself, and no assault weakens
    it."  Truth, like Jesus Christ, may always be denied, persecuted,
    combated, wounded, martyred, crucified; but it always lives again and
    rises again and cannot be wrenched out of the human heart.  St. Thomas
    put all the power of his genius at the exclusive service of the truth.
    He seems to wish to disappear behind it, almost through fear of
    troubling its brightness, so that it, and not he, should shine forth in
    all its radiance.

    According to St. Thomas, to fidelity to the voice of things, in
    philosophy, there corresponds in theology fidelity to the voice of the
    Church.  His rule, from which he never departed, was the principle:
    "Magis standum est auctoritati Ecclesiae ... quam cuiuscumque Doctoris"
    -- "More assent must be given to the authority of the Church than to
    that of any Doctor."  So, the truth propounded by the authority of the
    Church assisted by the Holy Spirit is the gauge of the truth expressed
    by all theologians and doctors, past, present and to come.  The
    authority of the doctrine of Aquinas here resolves and is made good in
    the authority of the doctrine of the Church.  This is why the Church
    has set him up as exemplar and model for theological research.


        [taken from:    Prayers and Devotions from Pope John Paul II
                            Selected passages from his writings and
                            speeches arranged for every day of the year.
                            pub: Regnery Gateway, ISBN 0-89526-601-6    ]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Edward Schileebeecx (sp?) writings
Keywords: Does anybody know E. Schileebeecx leanings ?
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:14:15 GMT

In article <C1F6uo.6wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ajpg1322@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Angelo J. Paguia) writes:
>I just found a voluminous book written by Edward Shileebeecx entitled
>"Christ" at the book store. My previous experience was when a nun
>lent me a book by him that I could not understand. I know that he is
>a well-known theologian from the University of Nijmegen in Holland,
>but I would like to know whether his writings are 1)Catholic ? and
>2) liberal ? (The Dutch church is well-known for its liberal leanings).
>
>Can someone provide me some info, please ? I am searching for a source
>on a proof against Justification by Faith and number 1 above is 
>important. Any other suggestions on these sources would be well
>appreciated. Thanks.
>
>Peace,
>Angelo
>

How does so far to the left that he makes the Berrigans look
conservative.  They say the fruits of one's labor are evidenced
by the response: take a look at the (for all intents and purposes)
moribund Dutch Catholic Church.  As one of the "leading lights" of
V][, and one of, if not the leading, progressive voices that never
seemed to think before speaking, I would venture that his seriously
faulty theology is responsible for more of the theological
woes of the past 20 years than anyone else's (not discounting the
disruptive nature of the Dulles', Donceel, and Fox's mess of things...)

(of course, JJ and EB may differ, but, as they say, your mileage
may vary...)



-- 
\   Bryan D. Boyle            \           _         ______ |
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  \ Exxon Research & Engineering\_______   N7068W  / | /    )
  / 908 730-3338                /        `/-==__ _/__|/__=-|
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:16:29 EST
From:         RASCH@C-H.BWH.HARVARD.EDU
Subject:      Re: directions

As the dragons flew away, N.O. Monaghan" <monaghan@DCS.GLA.AC.UK>
was heard to whisper

> I wonder if anyone else has noticed that it is perhaps those churches
> and seminaries which are doing least to adapt to the modern world (by
> that I mean, doing least to change fundamental beliefs, principles,
> social outlooks and so on) which are the most flourishing.

On the other hand, one could also argue that giving people a chance to
engage in denial about the real world by isolating themselves from any-
thing that engages them with the complexity and discomfort and ambiguity
that's out there in the modern world indeed may well be popular.  So are
pain-killing drugs.  People may well feel better by being sealed off from
conflict, but I don't think it ultimately does them, or the world, any
good.

Joan Rasch   rasch@c-h.bwh.harvard.edu    FidoNet  jrasch@1:101/230

 * The sink is not a piscina.
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