HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jhwelch@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Cleaning freq. of a muzzle loader in the old days
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:22:32 GMT

I've been following the black powder discussion with some interest.
We have an old civil war era muzzle loader as a decorative piece
but I was thinking of having it checked out by a gun shop for
actual use.

Previous postings have mentioned the need to clean a muzzle loader
every 10-20 shots and/or after a shooting session.  

As sort of a historical question, I can't imagine a civil war soldier
doing any kind of cleaning until the end of a battle at the earliest --
and that's assuming cleaning supplies were handy.  My question is,
how did they keep their rifle operational all day long?

Jonathan Welch  VAX Systems Programmer  Umass/Amherst  JHWELCH@ecs.umass.edu
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self Protect Handgun vs. Shotgun.
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:32 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <01GT2YKJLIR691WNJK@vega.selu.edu>, by pusv1305@altair.selu.edu:
# I am trying to decide on an appropreate personal protection pistol and or
# shotgun?  I have looked at ballistics and energy on impack for different
# ranges.  I figure a maximum range of 30 yards, for this porpose.  I also live
# in a neighborhood where homes are close together, and thin walled.  For this
# reason I dont want something that will go through my house and the neighbors,
# ect.  I do however want one shot stopping!  A possible might be the .22 Magnum,
# the ballistics i've seen rate it up there with a .38, but I havent seen many on
# the market.  I am not in a situation to get up if the first shot misses and
# beat the perp. over the head.  I'm open to suggestions.  

If this is for home protection, you seem to have quite a living room ;-{).

Shotguns are best for a prepared (static) defense of say your bedroom.  A
12 or 20 (or 10 or 16) gauge loaded with #4 buck should serve this purpose
well without too much danger of overpenetration.  Larger buck - 00 or 000
have fewer pellets and penetrate more.  I think I would load the _last_
round or 2 as 00 buck and/or slug, perhaps 00 buck for next to last and
slug for the last, by the time I need to use them, the home invader should
be close enough so as to be hard to miss.  If I have shot him with 3 or 4
#4 buck loads and he's still coming, a slug or 00 buck seems appropriate.

Most people are _slightly_ more likely to get a hit with a shotgun than a
handgun give practice with both.  Those who don't practice are best served
with a shotgun, but might want to reconsider using a firearm.

Handguns are also appropriate for the bedroom defense.  They are also much
more useful for checking out your house.  I'm not sure I would go checking
for home invaders, but the police may get annoyed if this comes up often
;-{).  If I am certain there is someone there, I will have my wife call
the police while I "cover" the door.

At any rate, with handguns, up to .357 mag, the largest caliber you can
control is probably best.  If you have thin walls, you might consider the
Glaser Safety Slug or one of its competitors for your handgun.  There have
been lots of books and magazine articles.  Ayoob's "In Gravest Extreme"
and "The Truth About Self-Protection" made sense to me.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloader mail-order sources
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:14:59 GMT
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH

In article <615@ssdc.UUCP> ssdc!jbasara@uunet.UU.NET (Jim Basara) writes:
#
#I too am in the market for a shotgun reloader.  My question is:  Are there
#any good mail order sources for reloaders??? I know that Gander Mountain
#carries the MEC line but does anyone carry Hornady??
#
try natchez shooters supplies fax 615-892-4482 phone --0499
or midsouth shooters supplies fax 615-475-5351


cu
-peet



-- 
Peter J. Kunz	Vogesenstr. 60	4106 Therwil	Switzerland
petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch	pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: bd474@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill McDonald)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS Slam-fire/full auto = $1.4 million
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:21:30 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, 71773.3463@CompuServe.COM (Brian  T. Millin) says:

##From the San Jose Mercury News, 1/7/93
#
#A 1.4 Million dollar settlement has been awarded to the widow and children
#of a man who was fatally shot in the back by his own military style rifle
#that malfunctioned and sprayed bullets around a shooting range.
#
#To paraphrase, two years ago John E. Murray let the bolt drop on an SKS-47
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#sold as the "Cowboy Companion" by Navy Arms when it slam-fired and went
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^
#full auto. It tore loose from his grip and moved backward, firing one
#bullet through his back killing him instantly. The rifle dumped 7 rounds
#in less than one second, lodging under the tire of his truck 38 feet away.
#
#The exporter, the importer, the distributor and the local shop are all to
#pay a portion of the award. A local gunsmith testified that he had
#personally seen 4 malfunctioning models in this county alone, and the
#settlement requires Navy Arms to publish warnings in national firearms
#magazines. The Navy Arms attorney called the death a freak accident, then
#went on to say that the firm warned people to test-fire the weapon because
#it had been known to slam fire.

Translation for a noviate, please (A noviate that sees lots of SKSs
around the shooting range--mostly under user's control ;-)  )


McD
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:53 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1993Jan5.010915.28498@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, by n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio):
# 	A reliable, high mag capacity, .22 LR submachine gun would 
# be quite a neat item, imo.   I wonder if there will ever be such a
# thing developed.
# 

I remember reading an article about one that was in production and being
used by police in Florida (I think).  It had a kind of drum magazine and a
laser sight and held somewhere between 150 and 200 rounds of .22 LR.  In
one shooting incident, the thing ate through the back of a car, the seats
and took out the driver, I don't think they said how many rounds this
took.  At any rate, word supposedly got around quickly and, pretty soon,
it was sufficient to put the laser "dot" where the perps could see it to
produce a quick surrender.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Speaking of .32 H&R magnum
Date: 5 Jan 93 03:28:36 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

#What I am wondering is whether it would be possible to convert some of the
#European pistols that use the .32 S&W long (?) cartridge to use the
#magnum.  I haven't seen many of them and suspect it wouldn't work, but
#would like to hear the net's opinion(s) on the subject.  It would make a
#nice pistol if it could be done.

	It would be just the same as converting a .38 to .357.  It would
work, but I suspect it could be dangerous and reduce the life of the
pistol.  I was suprised to find that some of those European revolvers are
made of zinc(!), even some of the pricey ones.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: mrr1@Ra.MsState.Edu (mark r rauschkolb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: New Jersey Gun Laws
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:18:08 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University


     Someone asked a while back about New Jersey Gun Laws, and I've
been looking for a reply, but haven't seen one.  If you responded via
e-mail, could you also tell me?

    Specifically, I remember hearing something like "New Jersey outlawed
various 'assault rifles' by specifically naming names.  A genuine Colt
AR-15 is on the list, but clonexs are not, and are therefore not illegal"

Any truth to this?
What rifles are on the list? (I heard an M1 is also)

Thanks

Mark
mrr1@isis.msstate.edu
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Cleaning freq. of a muzzle loader in the old days
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:05:19 GMT
Organization: Sun

In article <199301091744.AA19213@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
#In article <1993Jan9.002321.27036@PacBell.COM> malodah@srv.pacbell.com (Martin Lodahl) writes:
##...Trap-door Springfields were known to pull the
#
#The Seventh Cavalry was using carbines (I don't recall the model) not
#Springfield rifles, 

I believe that they were using Springfield carbines.

#but there was a major problem with extractors
#ripping off case heads. (They were fighting with four men shooting 
#and a fifth clearing jams.) However, I had heard this explained as
#a heating problem: After a sustained fire heated up the gun, and the
#metal parts expanded slightly, the extractor no longer worked properly...

The cartridges in use at the time were of "balloon-head" construction,
which are much thinner around the base than current case designs.

They hold a bit more powder than modern cases (which is part of the
reason that modern ".45-70" cartridges fill up at around 65 grains rather
than 70), and are much more subject to failure down near the rim.

--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Black Powder vs Smokeless ...
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:14:38 GMT
Organization: Circle 'C' Shellfish Ranch, Shores of the Pacific, California


Hmmm, In my shotgun reloading manual they make Very Strong Noises
about not changing any parameter of the load.  Much stronger than
in the metalic cartridge reloading books...

Thinking about it:  Shotgun loads have a compressed load of smokeless
below the cup!  Much as a black powder muzzeloader has the powder in 
a variable sized volume...

This causes two contradictory states of mind:  1)  Gee, one might
be able to look to shotgun load data for a clue as to the perameters
of smokeless in a variable volume compressed load situation. and 
2)  GAK, don't mess with your shotgun load components or powder (!)

Given the THEORY that smokeless has higher pressure excursions
with volume variation than black powder, one could conclude that
by rigorous adherence to some volume standarizing regimine a 
substitution of smokeless for BP would work.  What would this
take?  Most likely some thing like a standard fibre filler or
standard 'bullet wad' with a powder cup under it like for shotguns.
(If the theory is flawed or incomplete, however, you may be 
known as 'Old One Eyed Lefty', so lets just talk about the 
theory for a while rather than act on it, OK?)

Any shotgun reloaders out there have any insight?  {With remaining
Good Eye ;-)


-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: googs@pravda.webo.dg.com (Joe Gugliemino)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: One more Cz52 question
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:23:00 GMT


Thanks for the great posts about the Cz52.  There was a lot of important
information that I was missing.  I bought mine in semi-ignorance at an
auction, with no users manual.  I didn't know about the hazards of
dry-firing.  Heck, I didn't even know I had a decocking lever!  I'm also
gratified to learn that I got a pretty good pistol as far as the armory
ratings go - I've got 1 big dot and what might be a small dot (or
tooling mark?) stamped in the top of my slide.  All that's left is for
me to find some cheap ammo, and you've already steered me toward some
sources...

I still have one question about the pistol.  What does the lever at the
front of the trigger guard do?  At first I thought it might be a slide
release or lock, but once I worked the stiffness out of the action the
lever didn't do anything that I couldn't do some other way.  If you know
what it is I'd appreciate a post.  Thanks.
any information


                             Later,

                             Joe Gugliemino

(new address)
       |
       V
googs@pravda.webo.dg.com             Voice: (508) 870-6318
Joe_Gugliemino@dg.com                      Phone messages routinely routed
Data General Corp., Westboro, Ma.             to the nearest black hole...
From: mcaldwel@netcom.com (Michael Caldwell)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Mossberg 5500
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:19:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

I am thinking of getting 2 Mossberg 5500s for dove/quail/duck hunting.
Since I will be traveling to Mexico to hunt I need to get 2 guns in case
one breaks.  I want the same gun so that parts are exchangeable and so I
don't have to learn to shoot 2 different guns.  Since I need 2 guns I'm
looking for something fairly inexpensive.  However, I don't want to have
to buy 2 guns every year because they keep breaking beyond repair.  Am
I looking at the right gun or should I consider something else?  I want
a semi-auto and a 5 shot, there is no limit in Mexico.

Michael
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Report on Chech Vz-52 pistol.
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:18 GMT



Adding to Don Newcomb's lengthy and excellent posting:

1. The Vz 52 is a large pistol for a .30 caliber gun because the M48
cartridge is in the 9mm/.45 muzzle energy class, hence a 9mm/.45 sized gun.

2. The shrink wrap packaging and the rework date on the side of the gun
(VOsomething/91 or such) indicates that the guns were reworked in
Czechoslovakia prior to being exported to the US. A nice change from
most surplus, which usually comes as is from the arsenal where it was
rusting :)

3. Don found lots of his empty cases. Firing at a grass and gravel outdoor
range I have yet to find a single one. They go to the right somewhere.

4. In Berger's book (see below) it is mentioned that during the early
1970's era rework, pistols were graded for accuracy with 1 to 4 dots on
top of the slide. This rework has the dots going from 1 to 7. One is
supposed to be best.

5. Reference: Robert Berger, "Know your Czechoslovakian Pistols", Blacksmith
Publications, 1991.



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: trivia
Date: 4 Jan 93 13:32:30 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <harri.726002035@camelot> harri@camelot.bradley.edu (Thomas Friday) writes:
#
#the cartridge is called, coincidentally, .30 M1 Carbine.. :-) ammo is
#widely available, so dont worry about making brass.. the case has no
#shoulder; it looks almost straight-walled.  i believe with a 110 grain
#bullet velocities would typically be around 1900 fps; i.e. not much of
#a rifle cartridge, but pretty hot for a handgun. (revolvers in this
#caliber were/are(?) produced by a few companies i believe)..
#

Ruger made the Blackhawk single action revolver in .30 carbine.
I believe someone (Automag?) made or makes a semi-auto pistol
for it. I'd be surprised if Thompson-Center hadn't chambered
their single shot for it at some point. The sound from high
velocity smaller bore (revolvers at least) chambered handguns
isn't always pleasant to hear. Muzzle flash and blast also
tends to be more obvious.

-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: justice@Panix.Com (Michael Justice)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: How does BATF define "readily convertible to full-auto"?
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:09:12 GMT


(Apologies if this shows up twice;  something was weird with Panix
the other day when I mailed this, so I'm not sure it went out.)

Can anyone enlighten me (et alia :-) on what criteria the BATF uses to
classify a gun as "readily convertible" to full-auto?  The Sten gun (or
at least one variant of it, the Mk.II) and the Mac-10 open-bolt version
are apparently always considered to be full-auto guns no matter whether
a specific instance is set up as semiauto-only or as a real full-auto SMG.

If I'm wrong about the purpose of the BATF rulings on this subject, I'd
appreciate hearing that, too.  (The rulings, to me, seem to imply that
these guns have been corralled into falling under the NFA restrictions.)
 
In particular, if a rifle is not even a SEMIauto, can BATF claim that it
violates the NFA?  (American Rifleman had an article a while back, which
mentioned that Australia converted some Enfields to full-auto, and also
that someone (John Browning?) had converted a lever-action to full-auto.)

			Curiously,

			-- Michael.

[MODERATOR:  Reminder, let's keep it technical here.  Editorials or
discussion on motivation or merit of ATF rulings should go to the usual
Alternate Places... thanks.]
From: alden@coos.dartmouth.edu (Laurie F. Alden)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Buying Jacketed .45 ACP in bulk
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:05:15 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

Hello!

    This is Josh Alden, writing out of Laurie's account while I'm in
California (Bay Area).  I'm going to need about 1800 rounds of jacketed
.45 ACP ball in a few weeks.  I'd like to get it as cheaply as
possible, and I seem to remember a conversation a few months back about
sources of cheap ammunition in bulk.  For my purposes the bullet weight
does not matter and reloads are fine as long as they're not junk.

    I can get 500 rounds for $110 from Montana Hawk in the north Bay.
Does anyone know anyplace where I can beat that price?

    Please reply to Laurie and she'll pass it on to me.  Thanks for any
help you folks can give.  Give me four more months and I'll be back on
the net on a regular basis again.

-Josh.

-- 
lfa@dartmouth.edu                      |There's a little bit of dog hair
Stat Consultant - Dartmouth College    |in everything we do.
Chief of Design - JourneyGarb          |
From: bigdog@bones.et.byu.edu (Dan Canfield)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: I finally saw one, the 8mm Rem Mag.
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:30:44 GMT
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA

Over the past couple of years I have done a lot of reading and have
been very interested in a fairly new caliber, the 8mm Rem Mag.  I
have an 8mm Mauser that I love and have been fascinated by the 8mm
Rem Mag.  Well, last weekend my brother and I went to a gun show and
while wandering around and chekcing out things I found a guy who had
a brand new Remington 700 in the 8mm rem mag caliber.  What an incredible
gun.  From what the dealer said, the 8mm rem mag in the 700 series is
hand made in the Remington custom shop.  After close inspection I tend
to agree, all of the stampings in the metal where hand stamped, not 
machine stamped.

The gun was brand new and he was asking $750.  If he had accepted VISA's,
I am afraid I would have bought it.

Anyway, I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has had or currently
does have one of these guns and their experience with it.


Dan Canfield
bigdog@bones.et.byu.edu

DoD #0071,RP90
'89 FJ1200
'89 Indy707
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Excuss me while I kiss the sky" - Jimi Hendrix
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sights
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:25 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <199301062035.AA23643@ns2.CC.Lehigh.EDU> ka02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Kent P. Aitchison) writes:
#
#
#    Why are the front sight ramps and the back sight slots so darn wide on
#modern handguns?  I recently bought a Buckmark and a Super Blackhawk Hunter
#(.44) thinking I could do some interesting handiwork with them.  Don't get me
#wrong, I love them both and have already had hours of fun, but the sights drive
#me nuts.  These things are a mile wide, completely obscuring targets.  How can
#I expect to shoot bullseyes when the front ramp covers 3 rings at 25 yards?
#
#    OK, I'm not a highly trained shooter, neither do I have years of experience
#- yet.  But I have to believe that thinner slots and blades offer a greater
#ability to train the gun on the point of aim with precision.  Why then, instead
#of pinpoints, are we using bowling alley sights on our handguns?  I understand
#why I have them on my Glock, but these guns are not combat guns and are not
#likely to find themselves in my holster.
#
#    If I am wrong in my assumption that thin is better, I hope someone will
#take the time to inform me.  Otherwise, could somebody please tell me what
#replacement sights are available and how to get them?

To me, at least, the most important dimensions in rectangular handgun sights
are the side gaps (light gaps?) between the insides of the rear sights and
the outsides of the front sights.  If these are small, it is very easy to
verify left-to-right alignment by equal gaps.  Up-and-down aligment is actually
easier with a wide front sight (it gives you more horizontal top surface to
match with the top of the rear sight).  Since my Blackhawks (and Super) 
group offhand _about_ the same diameter (subtented) as the front post
width, this seems to be appropriate and work well. 
#
#    I would like to be able to reliably put down phone books or buckets at a
#hundred yards with the Blackhawk.  Am I expecting too much?  Could I do

Not at all.  My Blackhawks do this just fine.

#better?  As always, thanks for your knowledge.
#

Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com