From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Mythopoetic ritual (a pos
Date: 21 Dec 1992 18:13:05 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

vanhoek@bend.UCSD.EDU (Karen van Hoek) writes...
KVH> Me again, on the subject of reclaiming sexuality.  In the book
KVH> "Women Respond to the Men's Movement" p. 4, Ursula LeGuin writes
KVH> about a gathering she was at where Robert Bly told her, "The
KVH> Men have raised a Great Phallus farther up the river. ... I'd
KVH> show you, but it's off limits to the Women...."

It seems, given this remark and some of the others you made later on in this
message, that you rather resent the exclusion of women.  To this, I'd respond
with an inquiry of sorts - Were men not also excluded from Judy Chicago's
notorious and celebrated exposition of female-genitals-on-dinner-plates?  (I
was under the impression that men *had* been excluded, though I could be
mistaken...).

Now, while I have already stated a certain amount of philosophical concerns
with relying too heavily on women-only or men-only events, I would perhaps
make the reasonable exception that one gender's own celebration of their own
intimate sexuality really *shouldn't* be attended by the other gender, perhaps
not until we have a better understanding of each other and have eliminated the
judgemental tendencies which both sexes have towards each other's sexuality.

Indeed, perhaps the main reason why Judy Chicago excluded men from her dinner
gathering / exhibit, was because she was concerned that men would "degrade"
the exhibit by either gawking or what have you, and conversely women were
excluded from Bly's dance because they were concerned that women might say
"Shame on you!  That's a tool of VIOLENCE!  Not love!". I am VERY sure that
a *lot* of men who were there, *did* realise that some men have been sexually
violent, but at the same time, they wanted to reaffirm their sexuality without
being collectively shamed on account of the minority of men who *have* been
sexually violent.


KVH> I have two comments to make.  One is that I hope that there
KVH> are some men who would -- rather than feeling attacked and
KVH> getting defensive -- feel for a moment how _sad_ it is that
KVH> rape and sexual abuse are so pervasive that even a woman
KVH> who generally likes male anatomy and heterosexual relations
KVH> would still feel frightened by the thought of men
KVH> celebrating their maleness by celebrating their genitals.
KVH> It does seem very sad that the notion "phallus" has become
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KVH> so strongly identified with "weapon" that the thought of a
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KVH> men's movement which emphasizes celebration of the phallus
KVH> is scary.

Clearly, Karen, the men who *would* go to such a dance are *not* the people
who had anything to do with this extremely *negative* association of male
sexuality, and perhaps they want to do something about it.  (Good GOiD!  My
last sentence just reminded me of "The Juwes are not the men who will be
blamed for nothing" (!), which was written on a wall in Whitechapel by none
other than... Jack the Ripper, and had nothing to do with people who are
Jewish, but with a story in Freemasonry.  It is rather ironic that I ended up
composing this sentence and then realising the similarity, given the topic of
our conversation, especially the concept of "where to point the blame" which
seems to underlie this topic).

Bizarre quotes aside, the fact that these men wish to reaffirm their sexuality,
does NOT mean that they are glorifying the crime of rape!  Indeed, my guess is
that they would go to one of these dances, in order to heal the damage that has
been done to their notions of their own sexuality, and indeed, their own
self-esteem, because of the fact that sexuality *has* been used as a weapon.
Perhaps some of these men *are* the kind of individuals who feel collective
guilt for the crimes of some men, but even though *I* don't believe in
collective guilt trips, it must be acknowledged that *some* do, and they
shouldn't be shamed because of it.

Before anyone calls me "self-centred," I should say that I too, am
disturbed by the crime of rape, and by *all* violence in society (not
just towards women in particular), but even so, I strongly believe that
some men *do* need a way of dissociating their sexuality from those who
use their sexuality in a violent fashion.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * GOiD is a state of mind.


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