HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 601664@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA (PANG)
Subject: Re: Kanji of the day ?77
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:13:06 GMT

dear whoever it is :
                   the kanji word you have posted today is a similar
chinese word which means "hard working". :)

        I am interested in the kanji you have posted. Where did it originate
from? Is it a traditonal Japanese culture????

                                             Just curious
                                              :)
From: tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu (Tad Perry)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Cases in Japanese (Was: Re: THE QUICK AND DIRTY ...)
Date: 5 Jan 1993 23:33:42 GMT
Organization: unaffiliated
NNTP-Posting-Host: gibdo.engr.washington.edu

In article <1993Jan5.213455.9422@Csli.Stanford.EDU> hiraga@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Yuzuru Hiraga) writes:
>In article <C0DwI5.JI9@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:
>>Does "boku" have a case??
>
>No, Japanese nouns (including pronouns) do not possess cases by themselves,
>and (as Tad pointed out), do not inflect.
>It is the particles, or rather, the noun+particle combination that
>determines a case (in our case, boku+wa).

True.

>[specifics of various languages deleted]

>Some mapping of particles with common traditional cases are as follows:
>
>	Nominative (subject):		-wa, -ga
>	Accusative (direct object):	-wo
>	Dative (indirect object):	-ni
>	Possesive:			-no
>	Locative:			-de

The above is more or less correct, but I don't think I agree that "wa"
confers nominative case. I don't know what it should be called, but as
I stated in my guide, I think it clears out understood information and
replaces it. In *most* cases the information in question is indeed
nominative information, but "wa" is not restricted to placement after
only subjects by any means. (Although the clear tendency is
interesting.)  So I would re-order the list as:

        Contrastive(?) (all):		-wa
	Nominative (subject):		-ga
	Accusative (direct object):	-wo
	Dative (indirect object):	-ni
	Possesive:			-no
	Locative:			-de

By constrastive (a temporary name I just made up), I mean there is a
clear tendency to use "wa" to contrast the information that has been
cleared out with the information that has replaced it. That's why "wa"
is often literally translated using "as for ...", because the
corresponding English conveys some of the feeling of contrast. "As
for ..." is not nearly as common a construction in English, however.
Actually, quite rare, I'd say.

However, it is more likely that "-wa" has nothing to do with case at
all. The word being followed by "-wa" already has an understood case
that is covered by one of the other particles. "-wa" doesn't affect
that at all and it must be intuited by the listener as to what case
the word really has. In other words, "-wa" merely replaces the more
proper case marker which already confered case, and the listener has
the information necessary to understand which case marking the word
still carries even after "-wa" replacement.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tad Perry      Internet:    tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu
               CompuServe:  70402,3020
               NIFTY-Serve: GBG01266
From: AXJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET (Jared Gedlaman)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: New Year's Greeting
Date: 5 Jan 93 04:07:30 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
X-Unparsable-Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23: 06:51 TZONE

Sorry 'bout the typo on the greeting I sent, glad to see that someone is
paying attention!!!

Jared Gedlaman
Finance/Japanese Major
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona, USA
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Kana and Kanji Word-processor for X-windows
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 23:35:42 GMT

Could someone please tell me where I might ftp a Kana and Kanji
Word-processor for X-windows on a Sparcstation?  By word-processor, I
don't necessarily mean something like MacWrite or Word 5.0; something
like "emacs" is just fine.

I would like a package that outputs the edited file into a format
that I can print from a laserprinter which understands Postscript.

Please send e-mail.  As usual, I will post a summary.

(I have access to xarchie, so if you can provide the correctly-spelled
name of a package, then I might be able to look it up.)

Thanks, in advance!

------------------------------------------------------------------+------------
Jinsei no imi wa nan desu ka.                Sister, can you      |   \|  |`
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.           spare a coin?        |    | -+-
                                                                  |   /| / \
Copyright 1992, 1993    Disclaimer:  1 + 1 = 3                    |
------------------------------------------------------------------+------------
From: nico@elsevier.nl (Nico Poppelier)
Subject: Re: The Quick and Dirty Guide to Japanese
Organization: Elsevier Science Publishers
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:17:38 GMT

Christmas holiday gave me ample time to read "The Quick and
Dirty Guide to Japanese" by Tad Perry. Please find my
comments below.

First, some minor points:
- The "X kara Y made" construction is missing.
- Sentence-final "ka" is normally used for questions.
  In this Guide it looks as if rising intonation is implied.
- There is no explanation (at least: I couldn't find it)
  of "no". There are, however, examples, with "no":
  "Sono ato no eiga wa?".

Second, the stylization of the sentences in this Guide is 
normal, not polite, i.e. sentences end in "iku", "ikanai",
etc. In my opinion, every foreigner who wants to learn
Japanese and use it in conversation, should use the polite
stylization with "masu", "masen", "mashita" etc. 
The style advocated in this Guide is maybe OK among friends
but not in a shop, in a job interview, in the street asking
for directions, ...

Just my $ 0.02 worth,

Nico Poppelier
From: sdwyer@RISC.AGSM.UCLA.EDU (Steve Dwyer)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: kanji index X-references
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:43:02 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet

Has anyone wanted to see what several authors have to say about one
or more kanji characters?  I would like to find/create a cross-
reference among the JIS/EUC codes and the various indexing numbers
of the kanji reference books.  The recent JWP kanji word processor
provides JIS-code and Nelson-index lookup for any particular kanji.
It would be nice to have a kanji-index cross-reference for several
kanji books.

    Does anyone know of any cross-references available among the
indices of the following?

	Reading and Writing Japanese  -- Tuttle (publisher)
	A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters -- Henshall
	A New Dictionary of Kanji Usage -- Gakken (publisher)
	Remembering the Kanji -- Heisig
	Chinese-Japanese Character Cards -- Naganuma (kanji flash cards)

Thanks,

   Steve
   sdwyer@agsm.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen)
Subject: Re: kanji index X-references
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:26:35 GMT

sdwyer@RISC.AGSM.UCLA.EDU (Steve Dwyer) writes:

>Has anyone wanted to see what several authors have to say about one
>or more kanji characters?  I would like to find/create a cross-
>reference among the JIS/EUC codes and the various indexing numbers
>of the kanji reference books.  The recent JWP kanji word processor
>provides JIS-code and Nelson-index lookup for any particular kanji.
>It would be nice to have a kanji-index cross-reference for several
>kanji books.

The kanjidic file (available from pub/nihongo on monu6.cc.monash.edu.au)
has a pretty complete Nelson and Halpern coding for JIS 1 & 2. It also
has the skip codes (n-n-n) and all the Unicode mappings. Someone is
preparing a list of Heisig index numbers to add to this.

Kanjidic was derived initially from a JIS 1 file Stephen Chung put
together using Nelson numbers, yomikata, etc. keyed by Mike Erikson. He
(Stephen) put it in the alpha release of JWP, which is where I first 
came across it. I have (sort of) coordinated its expansion into the
present kanjidic, with the help of a lot of people. Let's keep 
kanjidic as a primary Public Domain reference file for kanji.

-- 
Jim Breen                           JIS:$B%8%`!!%V%j!<%s(J
Department of Robotics & Digital Technology. Monash University. 
PO Box 197 Caulfield East VIC 3145 Australia (ph) +61 3 573 2552 
(fax) +61 3 573 2345  AARNet/Internet:jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au  
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: ryoichi@athena.mit.edu (Ryoichi Hashimoto)
Subject: Re: Cases in Japanese (Was: Re: THE QUICK AND DIRTY ...)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 06:05:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan05.231550.21920@gibdo.engr.washington.edu> tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu (Tad Perry) writes:
                 *               *                *
>The above is more or less correct, but I don't think I agree that "wa"
>confers nominative case. I don't know what it should be called, but as
>I stated in my guide, I think it clears out understood information and
>replaces it. ....
>
>       Contrastive(?) (all):		-wa
>	.....

Your proposal seems to be a self-explanatory good name.  

I heard that japanese grammar (version of MOE, Ministry Of Education) often
fails to explain syntaces which are commonly used, and that the
biggest problems are related to nominative or the subjects of
sentences.  I sometimes feel as if I were explained the anatomy of an
animal in the terminology of fish, and that Japanese grammar is a play
of words among the people who speak the language fluently..., not
for the beginners.

Many grammar researchers seem to share my feelings and they are trying
to work out more reasonable grammar for Japanese.

My suggestion: "-wa" is a particle to point the topics, and be translated
               to "As for ...", or "If you ask about ...."
e.g., "BOKU HA UNAGI DA."
      = As for me, [what is wanted] is eel.
        If you ask about my order, [it] is eel.

    In this case, the subject is obvious and it is omitted.

And I understand "-ga" means "nothing/nobody but ..."
e.g., "BOKU HA UNAGI GA TABETAI."
       If you ask about me (= about my feeling), [I] want to eat
       nothing but eel.
    In this case the subject is omitted again, although MOE explains
    "BOKU HA" is the subject and  "UNAGI GA TABETAI" is an adjective 
    clause, in which "UNAGI GA" is the subject and "TABETAI" is an
    adjective, meaning "eel is appetizing".  

According to my explanation, "-ga" and "-wa" do not specify the cases.
Neither does "-mo."  The word can be either a nominative or an
accusative or others.  Therefore,
 "BOKU GA TABETAI NO HA UNAGI DA."
can be parsed in two ways:
  1)As for [the creature who] wants to eat nobody but me, [it(=creature)]
    is eel.  (Oh! Monster eel!)
  2)As for [the food] nobody but I want to eat, [it(=food)] is eel.

But the parsing according to MOE eliminates 2) :-) 
(This blame on MOE is a little exaggerated. It says "-ha" is not always a 
case particle. But why do you assign two roles to "-ha", nevertheless
most of Japanese feel unnatural to do so, and when it can be explained by 
a single rule?)

-- ryoichi
p.s. Hey! I'm waiting for cross fires! :-)
From: eroche@RND.STERN.NYU.EDU (Ed Roche)
Subject: Mac system 7.1
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 04:11:43 GMT

Can anyone answer this question:  Using system 7.1, and writing on Microsoft
Word 5.1 in English, how would it be possible to enter Japanenese text
directly into the document (and have it print correctly) -- for example, if
one would typing a Japanese/English dictionary and needed to have both.
Also, what happens with "styles" when one shifts from one language to another
in MS Word?
From: wdw@math2.sma.usna.navy.MIL (Wm. Douglas Withers -- math  FACULTY <wdw@sma.usna.navy.mil>)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Cases in Japanese (Was: Re: THE QUICK AND DIRTY ...)
Date: 6 Jan 93 16:09:40 GMT
Organization: U.S. Naval Academy

OK, I can't resist any longer...

1.  I suggest a better sentence to play with than `Boku wa unagi da' is
`Sakana wa unagi ga ii.'  For this one, it's difficult to see any other
particle that could replace `wa'.  If you must say that `wa' indicates a
case, I would say that, rather than indicating nominative case, 'wa' indicates
something like `topical' case, which has no close equivalent in European
languages.

2.  `Wa' differs from `ga', `o', `ni', `e', etc., in that it need not follow
a noun.  `Waruku wa nai.'  Same for `mo'.

3.  The topic specified by `wa'  can have its case specified by including
another particle: `niwa', `ewa', etc.  The catch:  `gawa' and `owa' always
contract back to just `wa.'  Same for `mo.'

4.  I don't find sentences with `wa' difficult to translate literally into
English.  `Boku wa unagi da.' = `As for me, it's eel.'  `Sakana wa unagi
ga ii.' = `As for fish, eel is good.'

There is a book by Kuno, "Structure of the Japanese Language" (I think that's
it).  I recommend it.  There are three or four chapters on the use of `wa'
vs. `ga', etc.
-- 
Els Withers                   email: wdw@math2.sma.usna.navy.mil
          phone: (410)267-3192 / fax: (410)267-4883
		  
The real difference between humanity and other animals:  birth-control pills.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: THE QUICK AND DIRTY GUIDE TO JAPANESE GRAMMAR (Posted)
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:06:05 GMT

hiraga@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Yuzuru Hiraga) writes:

>In article <PKELL.93Jan4235357@pkell.is.morgan.com> pkell@is.morgan.com (Peter Kell) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec26.142705.22799@Csli.Stanford.EDU> hiraga@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Yuzuru Hiraga) writes:
>>   A related issue is the so called UNAGI sentences, of the form
>>	   "Nani wo taberu?"	(What will you eat?)
>>	   "Boku wa unagi da"	(I'll have UNAGI=eel; but literally,
>>				    "I'm an eel")
>>
>>Replace " I'm an eel" with "For me, eel" and you would get both a literal and
>>a correct translation.

>That may work as a practical solution, but does not resolve the
>grammatical issue.  What you gave is not a literal translation,
>since the case is changed from nominative to dative (in short,
>"I" to "me").

......

>Tad Perry's original article gave a practical and clear-cut (even
>if not perfect) account of the particle "wa" (with noted contrast
>with "ga"), which is another reason for it to be recommended.


Does "boku" have a case?? It would seem to me that the literal translation
would be:

	Boku		wa	unagi	da.

      I/me/my/mine    as for    eel     is/am/are(not formal)

All of which points out the reality that there are not always clear
one to one mappings in translating between languages.

Feel free to correct me in any errors. I admit to being a rank beginner.

Charlie
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@koneko.shr.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
From: jonwd@uwtc.washington.edu (Jon Wiederspan)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Help finding *non-corrupt* Kanjisama demo
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:16:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1ia2e3INNi71
Distribution: world
Organization: Technical Japanese Program
NNTP-Posting-Host: harajuku.tjp.washington.edu
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
X-XXMessage-ID: <A76DCD1C9001CA3F@harajuku.tjp.washington.edu>
X-XXDate: Mon, 4 Jan 93 19:16:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.120036.45972@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> ,
jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>Could someone upload a new version of Kanjisama-demo.sit.hqx to
>uwashinton or elsewhere?  I've downloaded it three times now and
>everytime the end-all !sit archive comes out corrupt.  Am I missing
>something?  thanks...
>-- 
>jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
>James Miller

The archive was stuffed using version 3.0 of Stuffit Deluxe.  Perhaps it
uses
some new methods that older unstuffers cannot handle (although I don't
think
this is the case).  Whatever, I have uploaded the KanjiSama Demo now as a
self-
extracting archive so it should unstuff properly for anyone.

Jon Wiederspan
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: ntetsuya@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Nishimura)
Subject: Re: akemashite omedetou gozaimasu
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 08:31:36 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <9301042155.AA23218@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu writes:
>> Nishimurasan
>When I lived in Japan, they taught me to say "Akemashita" Am I the only one?

	Well, this is a kind of joke or pun.  "Akemashita" literally means
	"It (New Year) has opened."  Lots of kids (including myself) did this
	to friends or parents.

					Tetsuya Nishimura

					(well, are there other Nishimura-sans?)
					(if so, I'm sorry for responding for YOU					:-) ;-)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: IBM Japanese learning software
From: Peter.Weekes@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:46:24 GMT
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange

Excuse me if this is in a FAQ file, but could some kind person send me a list
of what they consider the best IBM compatable Japanese learning software ?

The kind of thing I'm looking for is flashcards for Hiragana, Katakana and
basic Kanji. Also maybe a dictionary ?

I know there are several programs around, but what do you think are the best
ones ?

Many thanks !

Peter

-- 
Peter Weekes    Box 7163             
     \       Wellington South       
     /         New Zealand         Peter.Weekes@bbs.actrix.gen.nz      
   /
From: yoichi@carson.u.washington.edu (Yoichi Ii)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: WNN/JWP Help
Keywords: jwp,wnn
Date: 8 Jan 93 10:27:31 GMT
Orgaon: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

I asked this a while ago but received no response.
Please allow me to repost.

I'm starting to use JWP, a Japanese word processor for
MSDOS machines. It comes witdictionary called WNN.  In order to use this in JWP
however, you also need an index file for WNN.  I have
a bigger WNN file than the one wwould like to use it.  

Q: Does anyone know    What's in these index file anyway? (If it's a trade
   secret, just tell me so :-)

Yoroshiku Doumo!
#! rnews 1940From: driscoll@src.honeywell.com (Kevin Driscoll)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics.airliners
From: tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu (Tad Perry)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Cases in Japanese (Was: Re: THE QUICK AND DIRTY ...)
Date: 12 Jan 1993 19:41:50 GMT
Organization: unaffiliated
NNTP-Posting-Host: gibdo.engr.washington.edu

In article <2632@usna.NAVY.MIL> wdw@math2.sma.usna.navy.MIL (Wm. Douglas Withers -- math  FACULTY <wdw@sma.usna.navy.mil>) writes:
>In article <1993Jan11.222615.22077@gibdo.engr.washington.edu> tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu (Tad Perry) writes:
>>I can think of
>>simple ways to achieve the proper connotation of "sakana wa unagi ga
>>ii" by changing the stress on the English sentence "fish like eel".
>
>This is fascinating.  You have assigned a meaning to this sentence which is
>nothing like what I has in mind (but which is not necessarily any less valid).
>The meaning I had in mind was something like: "Among all varieties of fish,
>eel is a good variety."  This is a long way from "Fish like eel."

That's what I thought you meant :-)

>>So, as for me, these "as for me" sentences do
>>not sound smooth or very proper either. Take a sampling of native
>>English speaker writing found on USENET outside this thread on this
>>newsgroup and I doubt you'll find many sentences starting with "as for
>>me"
>
>As for me, you are agreed with.  My comment was limited to this particular
>example.  What suggestions do you have for expressing the given idea
>naturally in English ("Fish like eel" disqualified for reasons stated above)?
>Feel free to specify patterns of stress and intonation.

Okay. For "among all varieties of fish, eel is a good variety",
and assuming "fish" as a category is already established you could have:

"Eel is good."

Where stress has changed to sound like the speaker is offering "eel"
as a suggestion. (Implication: "what you think about that?") If the
context of "fish" isn't understood, English would introduce that
conext with something like:

"Well, if we're having fish, eel is good."

with the same stess already being described being used on "eel is
good." The exact method in which the context of fish would be
introduced is highly dependent on context, which someone else has
already pointed out. I mean, it could be:

"Fish? Eel is good."

Any other number of possibilities come to mind. Sorry, I haven't
ever learned how to indicate stress in ASCII or how to transcribe
it. But if we were talking I could make what I mean clearer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tad Perry      Internet:    tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu
               CompuServe:  70402,3020
               NIFTY-Serve: GBG01266
From: Josh.Black@f7050.n153.z1.ship.wimsey.bc.ca (Josh Black)
Sender: UUCP@ship.wimsey.bc.ca
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: SHAREWARE JAPANESE WP'S
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1993 19:33:22 -0800

 Can anyone be so kind, as to tell me an FTP site(s) that carry japanese word
processors such as MOKE?

Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: rvejb@etlcom3.etl.go.jp (John Bozek)
Subject: Canon Wordtank ID-8500 sold out in Japan
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Organization: Electrotechnical Laboratory, Tsukuba Science City
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 05:04:39 GMT

I remember a thread some months ago in slj about the Canon wordtanks
which I didn't pay too much attention to at the time...how I wish I had !

Anyways, to make a long story short I have been in the market for a 
"woudotanku" and settled on the ID-8500 (retail price 44,000yen).  Flushed
with the idea of making my new purchase I phoned my supplier who informed
me that the 8500 is sold out in Japan (i.e. none left at Canon). 

Happily the 7200 (a remodelled 7100) is available (at 25,000yen) and 
though it doesn't have quite as many words as the 8500 (and only 64K of
SRAM vs 256K in the 8500) it will probably be more than sufficient for my
needs.

Before I order one though, I would like to know if anyone in Japan (or
recently from Japan) knows of any retailer that has the ID-8500 in stock.

Thanks for any info !

John Bozek
rvejb@etlcom3.etl.go.jp


Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: pkell@is.morgan.com (Peter Kell)
Subject: Re: THE QUICK AND DIRTY GUIDE TO JAPANESE GRAMMAR (Posted)
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Company
	<1992Dec26.142705.22799@Csli.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 04:53:57 GMT


In article <1992Dec26.142705.22799@Csli.Stanford.EDU> hiraga@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Yuzuru Hiraga) writes:

   [SIDE NOTE]:
   A related issue is the so called UNAGI sentences, of the form
	   "Nani wo taberu?"	(What will you eat?)
	   "Boku wa unagi da"	(I'll have UNAGI=eel; but literally,
				    "I'm an eel")

Replace " I'm an eel" with "For me, eel" and you would get both a literal and
a correct translation.


   The grammatical basis of the latter sentence is a much debated issue.
   This is also said to be the origin of a common error made by Japanese
   in speaking English, eg.
	   "Who's your favorite poet?"
	   "I am Keats"

In the same way, this can be rewritten as:

      	   "Who's your favourite poet?"
           "For me, Keats"


Peter F. T. Kell                                        Phone: 81-3-3286-9359
Information Services Department                           FAX: 81-3-3286-9040
Morgan Stanley Japan Ltd.  Tokyo Branch           E-mail: pkell@is.morgan.com
        Ote Center Bldg. 3F, 1-1-3 Otemachi, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 100

Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan