HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Alexx@world.std.com (Alexx S Kay)
Subject: Re: Why Vertigo? Was: Marvel copies DC... again
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:10:37 GMT

Chagnon_A@msm.cdx.mot.com (Andrew Chagnon) writes:

>Given the discussion that last month Sandman was ranked #75 in sales and
>Hellblazer wasn't in the top 100, why is DC creating the Vertigo line?

>There doesn't seem to be a sound business reason to do it from my viewpoint.
>Are there a large number of 'mature audience' readers out there that DC is
>tapping into, or are they hoping to create a new market of Vertigo readers?

>Judging from the sales stats, it seems that market does not exist, and DC is
>hoping to create one. 

>Any thoughts?

A few.  Firstly, "not as big a market as Superman" is not the same as "no
market".  I suspect that these books *are* showing profits.

Secondly, they may be trying to get more reader cross-pollination.  If a
non-comics reader who's discovered Sandman then picks up a copy of another
random DC comic, say JLA, they probably won't get much out of it.  On the
other hand, if they pick up a random Vertigo comic, the chances of a
successful match of tastes and content are signifigantly higher.  *Because*
the audience is much smaller than that for superhero books, it is often
difficult for someone who has discovered one "different" title to discover any
others.  Vertigo is an attempt to make them easier to identify.

Alexx

Alexx@world.std.com
"Once is heresy, twice is tradition, and three times is sacred tradition."
		-- Lord Rye
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: jelmore@nyx.cs.du.edu (John Elmore)
Subject: Re: Presidents in comics
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 17:44:16 GMT

In article <1ietupINNin9@titan.ucc.umass.edu> donovan@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Sean Donovan) writes:
>At least 1 other Presidential cameo I can think of:  Ron Reagan and Mikhail
>Gorbachev in Batman: Son of the Demon.  Oh, wait:  Ron Reagan again in 
>Dark Knight Returns III & IV.  Any others?
>
>-Sean (donovan@psych.umass.edu)

Well, the original comment was that Bill Clinton was the first President
to be featured in a _SUPERMAN_ book (which has since been proven untrue),
but since we're on the subject, how about Reagan in MILLENIUM--Nancy was
supposed to be a Manhunter agent!

Jay (=

Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: Re: Why Vertigo?
Organization: The Little Creator-Owned Squids of the Poor 
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:21:17 GMT

In article <DAN.93Jan8150359@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu> dan@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Dan Parmenter) writes:
>Unless Vertigo is offering creator-ownership  (which I doubt,
>considering Swamp Thing is one of the titles, and that's been a real
>cash cow for DC lately everywhere but in comics) then it can only
>provide the illusion of change.  Marvel's Epic line (Elektra and the
>Havok/Wolverine crossover notwithstanding) still represent a more
>progressive outlook as far as creator-ownership. 

Epic? The people who bring us TekWorld? Progressive? Other than Groo, the 
offerings from Epic in the next three month are fairly mundane. Maybe the
rest of the Heavy Hitters will be better.

I don't think any of the DC existing titles could go into creator-ownership.
That would be too difficult. However, some of the new titles will be 
creator-owned. This would be sort of limited by the re-use of existing DC
characters. However, titles like Sebastian 0 might be creater-owned.

If you look at the back of the Vertigo preview, I believe there is a list 
of the characters and who owns them. I don't have the preview with me, but
aren't some of those creator-owned?

-----------------------------
  Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith  | "They found him in the spring, frozen in an ice
    (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)     |  block, high above any sky trail. He still wore
   Are my fiften minutes    |  his top hat, monocle and blue and yellow scarf." 
         over yet?          |         _Mr Peanut and the Glamour of the Snow_
From: levin6706@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: RE: VG: unmentioned new Vertigo titles
Date: 9 Jan 93 12:21:05 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <6JAN93.08505293@wums.wustl.edu>, w95_cook@wums.wustl.edu writes:
> In a previous article, pautler@ils.nwu.edu (David Pautler) wrote:
>>In the issue of _Previews_ devoted to Vertigo, there's a bound card insert
>>between pages 48 and 49 that has a list of Vertigo titles on the back.
>>We've heard a lot about many of them, but there are some I've not heard
>>of anywhere else:
>>	American Freak
>>	A Tale of Un-Men
>>	Infernal Machine: A Love Story
>>	Jonah Hex: Two Gun Mojo
>>	Shadows Fall
>>	Skin Graft
>>	Tattered Banners
>>	The Last One
>>	The Phantom Stranger Special
>>	The Witching Hour
>> 
>>Has anyone heard anything about these?

I could be wrong, but I believe the Un-Men are a creation of Grant Morrison's. 
In the back of Doom Force, he listed a bunch of characters that he created and 
that he would eventually like to get around to working with.  Although, 
admittedly, I don't have the book in front of me, I believe The Un-Men were 
among that list of characters.

david levin
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: cdr@kpc.com (Carl Rigney)
Subject: Re: Marvel Implosion Imminent? (was: Re: Marvel copies DC... again)
Organization: Kubota Pacific Computer Inc, Santa Clara, CA
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 04:14:04 GMT

intruder@cats.ucsc.edu (Isaac N. Truder) writes:
>The problem with all
>these "New Universes" that Marble and Dee See are trying to create, is
>that they're always doing pretty much the same old crap, without any
>ties to the original company Universe.  

Or as John Burt put it in Alarums & Excursions #138, years ago:

"Of course DC sells better than the New Universe.  Why buy a third
rate rehash of the Schwartz era, when you can read its living
descendant?"

--
Carl Rigney
cdr@kpc.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: jacobw@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jacob Solomon Weinstein)
Subject: Re: SANDMAN:Lucien's Library
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:24:13 GMT

Somewhere in Lucien's library is a multi-volume collection called "The
Set Of Books From Which Jacob S. Weinstein Would Derive The Most
Pleasure and Edification." It contains precisely the maximum number of
such books that I'll be able to read in my lifetime. I'd love to get my
hands on it.
From: matta@lclark.edu (Matt Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Vertigo Preview
Date: 5 Jan 93 18:45:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1993Jan5.184536.11846
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <1993Jan4.225429.1005@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> praxis@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Laura L Perkinson) writes:
>
>	Someone PLEASE tell me that the guy who did the art in the Sandman
>story won't be drawing the comic ever ever again! Lord that was wretched
>looking stuff.

  Humh. I rather liked it, once I got used to it. Had a touch of surrealism.
Now it's the art in Kid Eternity that has me distressed. From a painted
masterpiece mini-series to this Mary Worth crap? And written by Ann Nocient?
Oh, the humanity!

-- Matt Alexander
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
Subject: Re: Is that Susan Richards' new costume?
Organization: Searle, Skokie, IL
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 08:51:31 GMT

In article <1idanhINNrur@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ce547@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kurt M. Wilcken) writes:
> 
> In a previous article, Chagnon_A@msm.cdx.mot.com (Andrew Chagnon) says:
> 
>>
>>Yes...that is Sue Richards.The new costume was introduced in the issues of
>>Fantastic Four that had the all-white cover. (don't know the number) Reed
>>Richards reaction was "Oh. That's nice. Did you get the roof fixed?" (something
>>like that) As for the other's reactions, I do not know. 
>>
>>
>    Agatha Harkness, the Richards' mystic nanny, wondered "Is it my
> imagination or has Susan grown _colder_?"  I think though that she
> was referring to Sue's new bitchy attitude rather than the amount of
> skin she was showing.  I hope both are remedied soon.

If it wasn't for the fact that it's being handled so poorly, I _like_ the idea
of a grim-n-gritty Sue Richards.  Too many of the comic women heroes are
passive or victims, usually of some kind of violation.  The FF are usually too
passive, too reactive to the threats around them (as are other superheroes).  A
pro-active Sue Richards could get Reed off his butt in the lab.

Still... wouldn't you think that a woman who can levitate things on force
fields and make various things invisible, and a man who can stretch various
parts of his body, would have the best personal life in comics?

Joel
-- 
jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want peace on earth, and goodwill towards man."
"We don't do that kind of thing, we're the United States Government!"
  -- from _Sneakers_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: danl@next08pg2.wam.umd.edu (Neurotic Bob)
Subject: Re: BONE by Jeff Smith
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:00:56 GMT

I would have to say that the only comparison I could even remotely find  
between Bone and Sandman or Cerebus is that it starated out as a  
relatively unknown title that surprised with its originality and general  
well-done quality.  If it is closer to either one, it is Cerebus, but I  
personally feel that the story tone is different enough not to draw too  
close an analogy. 

I think one of the major draws to Bone is its central group of characters,  
who all have well thought out and well portrayed personalities.  It is a  
break from all of the grim and gritty weirdness and shallowness out their  
in the comics market.  The art and the writing work together beautifully  
portray the story, which is just offbeat and light-hearted enough to keep  
the reader interested.  We actually get a story which doesn't have the  
prerequisite fight occuring every issue, and even events which may be  
pressing in the characters lives are approached with an easy-going,  
light-hearted style instead of the seemingly necessary comic book angst.   
Also, it does not harp on the fact that it does this, it just does it.   
(One of the things I can stand the least of is a comic book that does  
something atypical to comics, and at the same time puts up a huge neon  
sign with arrows and everything which says "OOOH OOOH LOOKEE LOOKEE!   
We're being DIFFERENT!)

Maybe Bone isn't everyone's cuppa tea, but it sure is a refreshing  
presence on the comics market.

		--Dan'L
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Cerebus #165
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:59:31 GMT

Food for thought:

Consider the woman who talked to Cerebus in issue #164. She has had a
Cirinist guard-stenographer for quite a while (she implies "five
years", make of it what you will).

But she had whiskey to offer to Cerebus.

She either had the whiskey before the invasion, or she had it smuggled
in. Either way, the Cirinists turned a blind eye to a gross violation
of Cirinist laws and ethics. Yes, they must turn a blind eye fairly
often...  but this is going awfully far. This, combined with her
willingness to criticise Cirin in the presence of a Cirinist, implies
that she has a lot of power of one sort or another. Not enough to free
her, but enough to keep her safe.

And on the subject of powerful women: What ever happened to the Abbess
of Goodabbey? Rotting in Cirin's dungeons? Or just off-camera?
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
From: albert@chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Justice Society #7
Date: 8 Jan 1993 23:32:53 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <1993Jan8.222757.8256@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>The letters page finally addresses the cancellation of JSA after issue 10.
>At the center of the explanation is the statement that "although the first
>book did considerably well, sales of subsequent issues began to fall
>substantially."  Word on the net was that the title was cancelled before

	Of course sales on the second issue will be less than the first.
First issues _always_ sell more.  Not just because of the speculators
who'd buy a copy of "Dork-Faced Money Grubbers," so long as it was
#1, but becuase lots of people try out the comic with the first issue,
and not everyone keeps buying it.
	According the the letter I got from Paul Levitz, (in a reply to
my complaint about DC cancelling it), the decision to cancel was an 
editorial one, not a sales one.  Levitz seemed to imply that he wishes
it were not so.
	BTW, hopefully, we'll see the JSA in crossovers and such.
What I'd like to see is the JSA taking an even less active role, when
it comes to fight scenes, but more active in other areas (speaches,
training the new generations, acting in loco parentis to the "kids",
like Jay Garrick has been doing in Flash.)


>I'd certainly keep reading this title...

	Ditto^3

-- 
Rick Jones              "People come back from the dead all the time.  I mean,
albert@bcm.tmc.edu       I've come back from the dead.  I bet you have to!"
Systems Support Center  "Well... Yes, I have.  But I AM a professional."
Voice: 713-798-7352          -Rick Jones and Dr Strange, Incredible Hulk #399
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: jelmore@nyx.cs.du.edu (John Elmore)
Subject: Re: Batman-Catwoman marriage (was Sandman: Lucien's Library)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 05:40:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.114337.1@happy.colorado.edu> mamcconnell@happy.colorado.edu (Mark (MacBear) McConnell) writes:
>In article <15344.2b4ab882@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>, balbes@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>> In article <C0F23K.Dp3@world.std.com>, jspencer@world.std.com (Jeffrey C Spencer) writes:
>>>   The marriage of Bruce Wayne and Selena Kyle
>> 
>> This was done in one of the last issues of Brave and the Bold.  Like
>> around issue 198 or so.  It's one of the most powerful Batman
>> stories to date.  (It's the Earth 2 Batman and Catwoman though.)
>>                             ^^^^^^^
>
>What's Earth 2?  8-)

AAAAAAUGH!

I'm only 21, for crying out loud! I shouldn't be feeling old _yet_!

Jay )=

Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Justice Society #7
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 18:25:09 GMT

jrjj@moscom.com (Jad Jordan):
>I was browsing through this latest issue at the store and caught a female in
>a suit similar to Johnny Quick. I thought she was to be the new Liberty Belle

Judging from the current issue, she's the daughter of JQ and LB, with the
abilities of both.
From: royd@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Roy Daniel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Happy Endings (Re: Sandman: Lucien's Library)
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:17:44 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal

In article <1993Jan6.030410.14424@Virginia.EDU> blr3r@Virginia.EDU (Brian L. Rust) writes:
>Some titles I'd like to read:
>
>Elric, the Redeemed
>		-Michael Moorcock's happy ending

A happy ending?! Gimme a break! Elric's much better without a happy ending! ;-)

Why does anybody wants a happy ending? Well, Death sure does, but I won't argue
with HER.

For my part, Eddy Current is, IMHO, right. A hero is not a hero if he doesn't 
die at the end. Not to say that someone who dies is a hero!

But then again...


Daniel Roy,
of the "Voyageurs sans Permis"

-- 
Mr. Cole's axiom:
	"The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant;
	 the population is growing."
From: royd@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Roy Daniel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: What if...
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:56:36 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal

In article <1993Jan06.163311.11979@microsoft.com> markp@microsoft.com (Mark Pennington) writes:
>Speaking of What if...
>In a recent issue, the cover boasted a picture of Ghost Rider with
>breasts and was titled, What If (the current Ghost Rider's sister
>whatever the heck her name is) Had become Ghost Rider.
> 
>Ghost Rider with breasts.
>
>Now it's been a while since my college anatomy classes, but I don't seem 
>to remember there being any bones in them there naughty bits.
>Personal experience would tend to bear me out.
>So why does this Ghost Rider have boobs?
>
Well, because of Marvel Comics' Editorial Rule #3445:

"Every female character has to have boobs. The bigger, the better. For a model,
check Jean Grey. Percentage of success with the with of your breast-drawings
will be determined by the percentage of your tits when compared to Jean's.
If lacking Jean Grey's pictures, just take a watermelon."


Wasn't that trivial?


Daniel Roy,
of the "Voyageurs sans Permis"


-- 
Mr. Cole's axiom:
	"The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant;
	 the population is growing."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: sweide@uceng.uc.edu (Steven Weide)
Subject: Re: Vertigo marketing
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:19:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.200956.20215@news.ysu.edu> ah185@yfn.ysu.edu (Christopher L. Tumber) writes:
>
>If Vertigo is "a line of sophisticated comics for mature readers"
>why doesn't it include Green Arrow, LSH, A Bat book (Legends?), Ms. Tree
>etc... Simple, because Vertigo is a horror/occult/wierd line which
>Dc seems to equate with 'mature' (Course the whole industry has a problem
>with more violence=more mature). 
>
>I'd suggest that if Dc wants to ensure the credibility and succes of
>the line, they ought to add some 'mainstream' titles.
>
The problem with adding these "mainstream" titles is that DC is trying to keep
the Vertigo titles out of the "mainstream".  They don't want to deal with the
added problems of keeping Sandman, Shade, etc. in the main DC universe.  I
think that it would be a liability to have to keep all the Vertigo titles
in line with the other DC titles. 


Steve
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: terry@edsi.plexus.COM (Terry Dawson)
Subject: Re: Good Omens, Crisis, and Watchmen (*spoilers*)
Organization: Appleton Public Library - Appleton, WI
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1993 05:55:00 GMT

>>Namely, in each of the aforementioned titles, a Really Big Event occurs.
>>Sort of. Afterwards, nobody, or at least very few people are aware of 
>>what happened. 

>>Is it merely a
>>dice of comics or science fiction?    Just curious...

>	IMHO, comics companies do things like that because the real
> world implications of the event would change the face of humanity

IMHO, this is a literary device which has been around considerably
longer than either comics or science fiction.  It gives an author the
ability to do outrageous things and avoid complications.  Used by
Shakespeare among many others.  But it works best in the realm of
speculative fiction and therefore lends itself well to comics.

-- 
     Terry Dawson       | "Only connect!" | voice: (414) 832-6168
Appleton Public Library |                 |   fax: (414) 832-6422
  Appleton, WI 54911    |  -E.M. Forster  | terry@edsi.plexus.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: danl@next05pg2.wam.umd.edu (Neurotic Bob)
Subject: Re: LEGION 93 (spoilers)
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:51:12 GMT

In article <C0GAKC.1CI@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tpjg9663@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom  
Johnston) writes:
> >I also predict that it will turn out that things have been going
> >according to Dox's plans.
> 
> If they use this, I sure hope they explain exactly what his plans
> were, how he could predict Ignea's actions, etc. rather than
> just saying "He's smarter than you are."
> 
What struck me was that Dox's motives behind all of this were probably  
typically self-focused.  He knows that he has a son out there somewhere,  
that Stealth knows where, and that he is not likely to get his son from  
her.  So, what does he do?  He arranges a situation where he can get  
access to his son, and he no longer needs to worry about Stealth's  
objections.  Typical Dox bastard maneuver.  Now, the trick is, how is he  
going to explain this to the REST of the L.E.G.I.O.N.?  After all, they  
just lost another team mate.

	--Dan'L
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: jcowling@ophelia.UVic.CA (Scowling Jim Cowling)
Subject: New releases: January 6-8, 1993
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 09:23:24 GMT


The following is a list of books scheduled to be released between January 6
and January 8, 1992.

Aardvark-Vanaheim
	Cerebus 165

AC Comics
	Femforce 56

Antarctic
	A-OK 3
	Furrlough 6
	Twilight X: Interlude 4

Caliber
	Saga of the Realm 2
	Thumbscrew 2

Comico
	Sherlock Holmes: Mystery & Suspense 3
	Splatter 6

Cult Press
	Windows 2

Dark Horse
	Grendel: War Child 6
	Ring of Roses 3

DC Comics	
	Action Comics 686
	Batman Adventures 5
	Crucible 1
	Darkstars 5
	Green Arrow 71
	Guy Gardner 5
	Justice League Europe 47
	Justice Society of America 7
	Martian Manhunter: American Secrets 3
	New Titans 94
	Robin III: Cry of ther Huntress 5
	Scarlett 2
	Timber Wolf 4

Drawn & Quarterly
	Dirty Plotte 3

Fantagraphics
	Palestine 1

Fleetway-Quality
	2000 AD Yearbook 1993
	Judge Dredd Yearbook 1993

Harris
	Vampirella 1 (2nd print)

Heroic
	Lady Arcane 3

Innovation
	Interview with the Vampire 7
	Light Fantastic 4
	Quantum Leap 11
	Queen of the Damned 6

Marvel
	Avengers West Coast 92
	Daredevil 321
	Namor 36
	Nightstalkers 5
	Nomad 11
	Original Ghost Rider 9
	Punisher 75
	Ren & Stimpy 4
	She-Hulk 49
	Spider-Man 2099 5
	Thor 459
	Uncanny X-Men 298
	Warheads 9
	Web of Spider-Man 98
	World Championship Wrestling 12

Mirage
	TMNT Special: The Maltese Turtle

Now
	Green Hornet 15
	Kato II 2

Rebel Studios
	Faust Act Five: The Rebel Edition

Slave Labor
	Megazzar Dude Special 1
	Tales From the Heart 9

Topps
	Dracula Crimson Foil Cover Edition

Valiant
	Shadowman 12

Miscellaneous Stuff
	Comic Buyers Guide 1000-1001
	Inside Collector Jan/Feb
	Usagi Yojimbo Book 5
	Love & Rockets Sketchbook 2 HC
	Ray Bradbury Chronicles Hardcover Limited Edition 3
	Heavy Metal 15th Anniversary HC
	X-Men: Night of the Sentinels Video

-------
Scowling Jim Cowling
Creative Writing Department, University of Victoria (opinions disassociated)

GEnie: J.COWLING		InterNet:  jcowling@ophelia.uvic.ca
-------