HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: STAR Pistols
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:55:28 GMT
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.


 I noticed that a store near me has just got a STAR (M30?) 9mm
 in Starvell finish.  It actually is a nice looking gun.  The
 Starvell looks alot like stainless steel. (less shiny than
 chrome).  For $270 it seems like a nice little 9mm for some
 fun shooting.  I think it's also availible in .40. I know that
 some people out there have mentioned that they have STAR pistols,
 so I have a couple of questions.

 1) How reliable are they. Can they handle +p ammo?

 2) How accurate are they?

 3) Are spare parts & magazines easily available?

 4) Any other comments + or - ?

 Also, what about the .40S&W.  I understand that the .40 runs at
 fairly high pressures. Is it higher than 9mm?


 The reason I'm asking is:

 A) There is a gunshow near Denver the weekend of the 12th&13th, (I-70 & 
    Chambers road). 

 B) I just got an unexpected $550 (after tax) bonus check this week :-)  

 So. . A+B = 9  (mm that is. Or maybe .40)

 I don't know if I will get a STAR, but I thought it was worth asking
 about.  Then again, a nice .357, or maybe a rifle in .223, or. . . 
 I know Mr. Moderator, "Buy them All!"

                                Bill Vojak
                                Bill_Vojak@stortek.com
                                NRA, ILA, CFC

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CBS Nightly Propaganda With Dan Rather. (RATHER NOT!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beretta 92 problems
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:03:00 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


In article <9209021851.AA07448@hpfcso.HP.COM>, post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com
(David Post) writes:
#How can you tell the difference between 9mm carbine and 9mm
#parabellum?

Mfg. stamp on brass

#What is 9 carbine used for in the military?

HK 94s for one thing (favorites of SEAL teams)

Don't tread on me..........................................I bite
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Eddie Kieger                             efk00@cd.amdahl.com 
For Pay:      System Design Engineer     Amdahl Corp.
              Bringing you better mainframe computers
For Fun:      "River Rat"                SBU-XI SPECWARGRU1 (USNR)
              Bringing hellfire and brimstone to a river near you!
From: mike.federchuk@rose.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: clay traps
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:16:44 GMT

Date Entered: 09-01-92 03:37


rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg) wrote:

RI|To be honest, I bought my thrower so long ago (5 years?) that I can't
  |remember the brand (it was nothing fancy though).  But I did have the
  |problem of breaking targets the first day out.  The problem wasn't the
  |targets, it was the thrower.  The thing sets on a steel platform with
  |4 sharpened legs that supposedly get pushed into the ground (Shh-yea!
  |Right!).  When throwing targets, the whipping action caused the whole
  |machanism to jump around, breaking the target before it left the arm.

RI|Solution:  I took the mechanism off of the steel platform, and bolted it
  |to a piece of plywood.  The plywood is large enough for the operator to
  |stand on while launching targets, thus holding the thrower steady.  This
  |setup works very well.

In a similar vein, a cottage owner I know has a Titus (sp?) trap welded to a
large truck tire and rim.  This makes for a fairly stable platform, the rim
holding the trap and the tire supporting the rim.

I've even seen a trap welded to a steel plate, which was welded to the tongue
of a standard ball hitch.  When it was time to shoot, the owner removed the
ball hitch and inserted the trap.  Somebody may even sell a kit for this.

Regards,
Mike

Mike Federchuk              |
Burlington, Ontario, Canada |
mike.federchuk@rose.com     |
---
   OLX 2.2   Dyslexics of the world, UNTIE!
   RoseMail 2.00 : Usenet: Rose Media - Hamilton (416) 575-5363
From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Concealed carry...
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:21:54 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:

#Okay - let's assume that we're past the legal, psychological, ethical, etc.
#questions about carrying a concealed firearm.  Whether it's legal or not, say
#one has decided to carry for one's own safety.

#What is the best type of holster to use?  Where is the best place to carry
#(side, front, back, shoulder)?  Any specific models that are particularly
#outstanding?

This really depends a lot on your body type, clothing style, weather and
activity.  Everything has to work together or you will arouse interest no
matter if the weapon is visible or not.  A very fast way to get me to high
orange is to see a knee length Raiders coat when it's a nice sunny day and 80F
or above.

If you normally wear shorts and a tee shirt than a fanny pack will draw much
less attention than the above coat.  I know, I know, WE all know what they are
but I've never had anybody ask to look inside mine.  Something like the Safe
Packer or some of the soft briefcase options make sense in this scenario as
well.

If you normally wear a suit, sports coat, sweater or other appropriate light
jacket AND you wear a sturdy belt AND your pants aren't too tight than the
inside the pants holsters work well.  Both the "executive companion" and
"summer special" by Milt Sparks work well for me with either a Government
Model or Commander.  Best placement for me is strong side, just behind the hip
bone.

Watch out for small-of-the-back holsters.  Many are very uncomfortable to sit
on or drive with.  Every one that I've seen prints when you bend over. 

Remember that if you are carrying, you will likely be carrying all day and
doing many different things.  Does it print when you jog across the street?
Do you need to hold your coat closed when you move? Does it cause you to do a
telltale touch?  Does it hang up on your chair when you stand up?  Is it
conformable to commute in?  How long does it take to deploy the weapon and
fire one shot?  Can you re-holster easily?

#Note that the firearm in question is a 5-inch government model.  I was thinking
#something along the lines of an inside-the-pants holster located at one's
#back.  Feasible?  Or is trying to conceal a full size auto (on a small person
#nonetheless) complete folly?

It is possible, but you'll have to work at it.  The solution evolves a
combination of clothing, holster and style.  Good luck.

#DVC,
#  Paul

#Paul Yoshimune
#pauly@netcom.com

Hope this helps,
  Barry.

-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527
From: cower@csli.stanford.edu (Richard Cower)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS's and detachable magazines
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:10:28 GMT
Organization: CSLI, Stanford University


Someone posted that SOG (Southern Ohio Guns) is selling the SKS's with
the detachable magazines (these take standard AK magazines).

While it is true, they are selling them - they are not delivering them. The
ATF is holding up the shipment. It might be resolved by mid-Sept., but I
wouldn't bet on it.

For those that keep asking if they can put a detachable magazine on the
SKS - I personally wouldn't do it. Same applies for the folding stocks. I
believe the ruling by the BATF is very clear on this. 

...rich
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifled Shotguns?
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:16:16 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <1992Aug31.190710.10582@michael.apple.com>, ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#While wandering through my Shooters Bible looking at shotguns (due to
#the recent defense shotgun thread in misc.houses and my interest in 
#'quiet' guns which lead to shotguns as slow big bores.) I discovered that
#several manufacturers make 'rifled shotguns'.
#
#I assume these are for use in those bizarre states that don't let
#you hunt deer with a decent rifle, but insist on shotguns.
#
#Some questions:
#
#1)  How can it be classed as a shotgun if it has a fully rifled barrel?

	Because it's no longer a shotgun, it's a rifle. :) I called
	the BATF and asked, but when I got to asking 'can I put
	a 16" rifled barrel on my shotgun and have it be legal, and
	what if any is the minimum twist rate for such a barrel (ie
	1turn-in-1000inches ?) they wanted to know my name and
	address, and then reffered me to a different department 
	[no, i didn't give them my name]

#
#1.a)  How can if avoid being a 'weapon of mass distruction' due to the
#greater than .50 cal bore?

	the range .50" to 1.0" is allowed a 'sporting' exception
	if the BATF feels like it. (ie your 600 nitro express is
	going to get the excpetion, but your 20mm cannon is not)

#
#2)  As a home defense weapon, wouldn't the Remingtion 20 inch barrel
#fully rifled disperse small shot quicker than the 18 inch defense guns?
#Enough to be worth the extra effort to get one?  

	Yes it would disperse shot quicker, you'd get a dounut shaped
	shot pattern. not the most effective pattern in the world. :>

#
#3)  Are the fully rifled barrels significantly different in accuracy
#than the 'rifled choke tube' offered by some makers?  Which is 'better'
#and why?

	See an article this year in the American Rifleman. the short
	answer is no, there is no significant difference.

#
#4)  Do you have to use different kinds of slugs in a rifled barrel, in
#a 'sabot rifled choke tube', in a cyl bore smooth bore?
#

	Have to , no. but some types of ammo work best in a specific type
	of rifling. (ie the sabot rifled barrels do work much better with
	sabot loads than they ydo with lead Foster type slugs)

#
#Golly, what a wierd concept though.  A rifled shotgun with a scope ...
#And do you really need a scope?  I'd expect this thing to drop like 
#a rock after 75 yards ... 
#
#
	The saboted slugs are good to about 100-125 yards when used
	with a scope. The whold scope&saboted-slug&rifled barrel 
	add about 25-50 yards to your effective range with a shotgun.
	Some people think it's worthwhile... (I do. )

*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $650 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:21:41 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <11883@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
}# In <1992Aug19.022135.16461@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
}# wrt Kalifornia]
}# ... Remember
}# that loaded magazine == loaded gun (in fact, live ammunition touching any
}# part of a gun, including the magazine, is legally the same as a loaded
}# gun).
}
}... Cotati
}Police had taken to sitting outside the range, and stopping people
}coming out of, or into the range, and inspecting their handguns.
}They were using the "ridiculous interpretation" of the Kalifornia
}law to confiscate guns from people who had a loaded magazine in 
}the same bag as a gun.  ...
}... it's pretty amazing to think that the Cotati PD has
}enough time and energy to engage in this sort of madness.

Is Cotati a hotbed of crime?  Maybe they've got nothing better to do.

I don't think anyone in L.A. is setting up stings like this, but law
enforcement officers of various stripes do frequent indoor ranges here.
At least one range in downtown L.A. has signs up warning that there have
been confiscations.

My range bag has an external compartment with a separate lock that I keep
ammunition in.  I've been told this meets the "separate locked container"
requirement, but now I'm beginning to worry.  Since it's part of the range
bag, a case _could_ be made that it's all the same container, separate
locks not withstanding.

"The times they're a gettin' loopy!"  -- Milquetoast Cockroach

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SKS and Ammo Questions
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:58:06 GMT


----

I have an SKS I enjoy shooting.  But the Gun laws applicable to it baffle me. 
If I were to hunt with it, I would need a 5 round magazine, instead of the 10 
rd. fixed magazine.  So this means I have to remove the magazine and install 
a detachable 5 round magazine.  

But then I've heard it's illegal to modify the SKS with a detachable magazine, 
or is it just a high capacity detachable magizine?  And then, the law applies
only if my SKS was imported beyond some arbitrary date.  Ditto for a folding 
stock and probably other mods.

Can someone more informed than I tell me what I can and cannot do to my SKS?
How can I tell if my SKS was imported after the magical date?

-----

Next, a question on imported 7.62x39 ammo.  I recently bought some Chinese
ammo.  It came sealed in a wood box.  Inside the wood box were two identical
sealed tins.  Inside the tins was the ammo wrapped with paper in 20 round 
groups.  It is supposed to be Norinco ammo.  Question: Is this "corrosive"
ammo?  If so, do I just be sure to clean the s**t out of it after using,
or is there something else I should know about using corrosive ammo.

Thanks in advance,  

  ---  Dan

------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Weed                             weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co. - Houston
          "My comments are my own, not my employer's"
From: U16244%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: happy happy happy, cooper trains for DA
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:02:13 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

Well, I was just paging through the latest Guns and Ammo and found
two things to really be excited about.

First, Colonel Cooper has finally decided that it is the user's fault,
not the weapon's fault, that double action/single action pistols are
so hard to shoot.  He concedes that discipline and training are what are
needed to effectively handle the double action- single action switch,
something I've been working on for years with my Beretta, and that goes
the same for all you SIG and Smith and Star fans out there.  He finally
realizes that double action is not a substitute for training, nor
a degradation to a shooter who is disciplined in the art of working a
crunchenticker, or a Glock for that matter.  Now if he'd only take notice
that there are high preformance 9mm slugs out there, and not that namby
pamby  9mm hardball bullshit that the Hague convention warrants for our
armed forces in either 9mm hardball (I'd rather shoot myself in the head
with that) or .45 hardball (no thank you.  Never liked it, never will, give
me some damn .45 hollowpoints man, then we rock and roll!)

Speaking of rock and roll- second point of excitement.  Actual photograph
of the new Steyr TMP.  Always did think the MPi63 was an attractive piece
of work.  The baby pistol looks absolutely great, and though I'll never
get to own one, I may see if there are any Class III weapons fairs just
to try that bad little mother out.  And the best of all, it's a near
twin (near) to what I consider the best looking (and perhaps finest
machine pistol of all time- check my last name for a hint as to why)
piece I've ever seen, the Wz63, right down to the fold down lever and Uzi-style
layout.

Douglas P. Wojtowicz.

Pillage, pillage, pillage, loot, loot, loot!

Stupid the Cat, from Ren and Stimpy, "Out West."
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Supplier of trigger locks required
Date: 30 Aug 92 23:12:54 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Aug21.143359.1@admin.usask.ca> schultz@admin2.usask.ca writes:
#
#	Because of the great new Canadian legislation, a gun club I am 
#associated with is looking for a supplier of trigger locks - likely to 
#purchase 500 locks. We recently bought 500 cable locks from Mossberg & 
#Sons at a very decent price but still require trigger locks for some 
#firearms.                  
#
#	Any information of suppliers of trigger locks would be greatly
#appreciated. Please email directly to
#
#Schultzr@sask.usask.ca 
#
#or the address in the header.
#
#Robert Schultz

Master Lock Co. 
2600 N. 32nd St. 
Milwaukee, WI 53245

-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 |"Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master" |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 29 Aug 92 23:41:15 GMT
Organization: NCSU Computing Center - Adams' Family Club

In article <viking.715041392@vincent2.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
#fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
### ...a reference to short-barreled shotguns used in the
###military.
# ...
#	A better source might be the Germans themselves.   ...

  "The 12-gage (18.5 mm) shotgun has been a controversial weapon in the
twentieth century.  German military authorities condemned its use by
American troops in the trenches of the western front during the First
World War.  During the Second World War and the Korean conflict, the
shotgun was carried mainly by troops guarding prisoners of war, but in
the Vietnam War and in the Israeli battles in the Middle East this
devastating weapon has been employed for close encounters of a hostile
kind.  Generally, these shotguns were modifications of models available
commercially.  Among the first of these altered shotguns was the
Winchester Model 12 pump which had a barrel jacket added that also
allowed the standard rifle bayonet to be used.  More recently, the
Marine Corps has used the Remington Model 870."

  From SMALL ARMS of the WORLD by E. C. Ezell, pg 179 section on
Combat Shotguns.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:16:21 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <+sqy!x#@rpi.edu>, vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten) writes:
# Clayton Cramer writes about short-barreled shotguns:
# #  Such
# #shotguns were used in trench warfare by U.S. soldiers, much to the
# #consternation of the Germans.
# 
# I've seen this at least half a dozen times both in t.p.g and here.
# And I've e-mailed a couple of people about this and both ignored me.
# So I'm going to throw it out to rec.guns in general and ask if
# *anybody* has a reference to short-barreled shotguns used in the
# military.  The trench guns of WWI and WWII (including Win M97 and M12,
# Stevens M520 and M620, etc., etc.) all had 20-in. barrels, which is a
# full 2 inches over the limit.  Even the current issue Mossberg M590
# has a 20-in. cylinder tube with 2-3/4" chamber, as per the original
# spec.  The military has *never* used a "trench gun" with a short
# barrel, at least not by that name.  Is there something I've missed?  I
# think a few people seem confused about the US vs. Miller decision,
# unless I am. :-)
# 
#                John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu

Michael Newton, _Armed and Dangerous: A Writer's Guide to Weapons_,
(Cincinnatti, Ohio, Writer's Digest Books: 1990), 44-45, claims that
about 40,000 shotguns were purchased by the military for use as "trench 
brooms" during World War I.  He does not explicitly say that they
were sawed-off (though this is the context), although I have seen 
this claim elsewhere that the model used in the U.S. v. Miller 
(1939) case was identical to one used in WWI.

This presents an interesting question.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Sportster/AR-15 Magazine Compatibility?
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:14:40 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1992Aug19.152436.8887@icd.ab.com>, kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:
# I understand that the new "sporterized" version of the AR-15 that
# they only supply a 5 round magazine.  Will extended capacity (i.e.,
# 20, 30, 40 round) magazines designed for the AR-15/M16 work in the
# new version of the gun?

Yes.

# (I know that this probably sounds like a dumb question, and I'm sure
# the answer is probably yes, which leaves me wondering, why did they
# bother?)

For the same reason that Marlin no longer sells the 20 round magazine
for the Marlin Camp Carbine 9mm -- they wanted to be able to say,
"We don't sell weapons like that -- high capacity assault weapons
whose only use is by drug dealers," but they didn't want to eliminate
the profit margin from selling legitimate militia and self-defense
weapons.

The hypocrisy of it all bugs me, but at least the weapon is still
available.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Anaconda quality?
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:58:20 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <1992Aug26.192128.29486@centric.com>, ian@Centric.COM (Ian Macky) writes:
|> I've been thinking about a Colt Anaconda (.44 Magnum).  I love my Python and
|> thought the Anaconda was a beefier, scaled-up version with the same quality.
|> 
|> I was surprised when pricing them yesterday that the Anaconda costs about
|> the same as the King Cobra (~$350), instead of the same as a Python (~$700).
|> 
|> The obvious conclusion is the Anaconda is not the same quality as a Python.
|> Is that the case?  It seems the Anaconda is Colt's only .44 model?  How sad.

The Anaconda is a Trooper scale-up, not a Python derivitive.

Don't bother, unless you've not been spoiled by a Python.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
Start your day with a little civil disobedience.  Call BATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS or
1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and government employees
that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Lead revisited
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:11:56 GMT


I just acquired a box of CCI "Blazer" cartridges - .38 Spl 158 gr RNL.
In addition to the usual warnings and cautions on most ammo boxes, and
cautions regarding the non-reloadability of "Blazer" cases, there was
a warning about lead: Discharging and cleaning firearms and handling
ammunition can cause exposure to lead. Lead is a poison which can cause 
birth defects or other serious illness. Use only in properly ventilated
locations. Wash hands after handling. Or words to that effect.

I'm used to these sort of warnings, but this is a new one for me. Has
anybody else seen it? Is this a new requirement, or just liability-
proofing?

I also noted the warnings in German, French, and Spanish: Cases are marked
"NR", which means non-reloadable. Keep out of reach of children. 10.2 g
round nose lead bullet. All 3 took up 1/3 the space of the USA warnings.
Thanks, lawyers.

Of course, I can't even read the labels on my Egyptian 9mm boxes :)


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison