HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sml@plato.ds.boeing.com (Stuart Lewis)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Weather on I-5? (skid control)
Date: 18 Dec 92 00:22:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: plato.BzFICt.J3x
Organization: Boeing Defense & Space Group

God Lord!  What have I started?!

>>Stuart Lewis wrote:  [that would be me]
>>>	"turn into a skid ..."
>>
>>andrew@frip.WV.TEK.COM (Andrew Klossner) wrote:
>>>This is for rear wheel drive.  If you have front wheel drive, turn in
>>>the direction that you want to go.  In snow country, this alone was a
>>>good reason to buy front wheel drive -- the natural reflex is the right
>>>one in this situation.

Yes, this is true.  My comments were for rear wheel drive.

>>I disagree with this, but then again I grew up in a area that received
>>a lot of snow, with a rear wheel drive car.  Turning into a skid is
>>a natural response. :-)

And yeah, that would be correct for what you describe, i.e. rear
wheel drive.  By turning away from the skid, what you've done in
effect, is put the tread pattern, indeed, the tire, perpendicular to
the actual direction you're traveling - you need to point the tires
"into" the actual path of movement to allow the tread to go back to
work for you.  Once they do, ease back out.

>I think you should have to demonstrate skid control on a skid pad -
>but then I'm the sort who finds deserted snowy parking lots and
>practices skid recovery. 

Yes, yes, yes!  That's as good a way as any to learn skid recovery.
That's how I taught my wife - just find a big grocery store lot
(better yet - go to some of the Boeing complexes - huge open lots
with little or no cars after hours) and have at it.

>.........................To know theoretically that you turn in to
>the skid is one thing; it's another thing to have actually done it and
>know what it feels like. In a front drive car I'd probably use power
>to pull me out of the skid, and in a rear drive car I'd back off the
>power - but I'd know which worked better, because I'd have tried it
>before I really needed it.
>
>...laura

Stuart Lewis
sml@plato.ds.boeing.com
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira)
Subject: Re: Weather on I-5?
Organization: Jazzie Systems, Seattle, Washington, USA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 06:07:35 GMT

In article <crystal.724291226@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
>In <1992Dec13.172918.26548@u.washington.edu> tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
>>Are there places that tend to get shut down by snow?  
>
>I don't know about "shut-down", but I would definitely take chains along
>for the Siskyous (like Mt. Shasta).  

This is great advice, as several others have mentioned.  But on a
somewhat nit-picky tangent:  Shasta isn't one of the Siskyous, it's
the southernmost of the Cascades.  Unless I'm way off base, the 
Cascade peaks (Shasta, Hood, St. Helens, Ranier, Baker, and the one 
I can never remember in southern Oregon) are volcanic; the Siskyous 
aren't.  Maybe some geology expert could fill in the details here?

Crystal's right though about the location, and about the advisability
of chains.  (I've travelled the road at least 3 times in winter, and
although I've only needed them once I was happy they were there each
time.)
-- 
Sean Shapira        seans@microsoft.com        sds@jazzie.com
From: snoopy@sopwith.uucp (Snoopy)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: driving in snow (or other low traction conditions)
Date: 16 Dec 92 05:13:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: sopwith.1992Dec16.051316.3202
Organization: The Daisy Hill Puppy Farm

In article <2341@shaman.wv.tek.com> andrew@frip.wv.tek.com writes:

|	"turn into a skid ..."
|
| This is for rear wheel drive.  If you have front wheel drive, turn in
| the direction that you want to go.  In snow country, this alone was a
| good reason to buy front wheel drive -- the natural reflex is the right
| one in this situation.

The drivetrain doesn't matter.  Always steer where you want to go.
And always look where you want to go.  Don't look at the phone pole
or the other car, watch the nice clear lane you want the car to stay in.

    _____
   /_____\   Snoopy			  The government is not your mommy.
  /_______\   
    |___|    cse.ogi.edu!sopwith!snoopy
    |___|    {ares,illian,loop,parsely,qiclab,sequent,techbook}!sopwith!snoopy
From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Who Calls The Shots at Powell's Technical Bookstore
Date: 21 Dec 92 06:53:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: tc.1992Dec21.065345.25768
Distribution: pnw
Organization: The John Fluke Mfg. Co.  /a.k.a. The Gizmonics Institute/

I thought admirers and customers of Powell's bookstore in Portland might
enjoy this anecdote:

I ordered a slew of Powell's gift certificates for friends and relatives in
Portland, which they mailed to me (as I live in Seattle), over the phone.
When the package containing the gift certificates arrived, I discovered that
it also contained (besides several Powell's bookmarks) a business card for
Powell's Technical Bookstore, elegantly embossed with the name of the store,
address and phone numbers.  In the are on the card where the employee's name
and title are printed was printed:

                                    FUP
                                 Store Cat

----
Well, I have about 23 other reasons for liking Powell's; but it's always
nice to have a friend in the executive wing.

                           "I'm a simple man,
                            Hobbes."
                                                     "You?  Yesterday you
                                                      wanted a nuclear powered
                                                      car that could turn into
                                                      a jet with laser-guided
                                                      heat-seeking missiles!"
                           "I'm a simple man with
                            complex tastes."
---
                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
INTERNET:     moriarty@tc.fluke.COM
Manual UUCP:  {uunet, uw-beaver, sun, microsoft}!fluke!moriarty
CREDO:        You gotta be Cruel to be Kind...
                 **>> Keep circulating the tapes <<**
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: rgc3679@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert G. Carpenter)
Subject: Let's Get Bike Law Repealed.
Organization: Boeing Computer Services
Distribution: boeing
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:10:46 GMT

King County Netters,

From the postings I've read, and the people I've spoken with, it seems
that few people are in favor of the new bicycle helmet law. Not that
protecting ones head from injury isn't worthwhile, but rather that it's
yet another infringement on personal liberties by governing bodies.

We can sit here at our computer terminals and complain, which probably
won't cause a reversal of the situation, or we can take some action.
Whether you believe wearing helmets is a good idea, or not, I hope
you realize the true consequences of actions that erode your liberties
(freedoms) and will join me in opposing the action and try to obtain
a repeal before the law takes affect in March.

I suspect that there is already an effort underway to organize a repeal.
Likely, some of the six people that made an effort at the King County Council
meeting opposing the law are involved - I hope so! If there is an action
underway, then I'd like to join it by giving my time, talent and money. If
there isn't an action underway then I'd like to start one.

Let's get a thread going discussing how to repel this law.

Please post whatever information you have on the following questions:

  1) Is there an organized group formed to try and repeal the law?

  2) What are the legal procedures for getting the law repealed?

  3) What are the best ways to influence the legislators that have the power to
     repeal the law?

  4) Is it possible that the King County Health and Safety department has
     over-stepped their authority on this one? Have they trounced on the
     rights of the State, for example?

These four questions should get the ball rolling.

Please, let's keep the dialog of this thread focused on how to repeal the law
and not get into the rights and liberty issues - other threads are handling them.

I hope you net people in Seattle will get involved, even though the law as it
currently exists doesn't apply to you. Remember, once a law such as this is
passed with exclusions (such as Seattle) and adopted by passive attitudes it
gets easy to broaden its scope. In other words - you'll be next!

Let's fight this one hard - it's worth winning!

Thanks.

BobC

Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: NEEDED:  roommate situation
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 08:25:06 GMT

Due to a very unfortunate turn of events, a friend of mine needs
to get an apartment or, better yet, move in with someone who needs
a roommate.  If possible, he would need the place by January 1.
He's 23, quiet, responsible, a non-smoker, neat, clean and would
very much like to be a roommate, since he doesn't have the funds
needed to move into a new apartment (typically first, last and a 
security deposit).  Please email me if you can help my friend David
out.

Thanks in advance,

allen
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: ray@Celestial.COM (Ray Jones)
Subject: Re: Freedom, Social Responsibility, Individual Responsibility
Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:58:22 GMT
Keywords: Helmet Laws, Drug Laws, etc.

In <Bz4KCq.JGw@hfglobe.intel.com> labelle@hfglobe.intel.com (George La Belle) writes:

>nanook@eskimo.com (Robert Dinse) writes:


>>     Society SHOULD be responsible for protecting YOU from ME and ME from
>>YOU, society should not be responsible for protecting me from myself.  If we
>>decide, as a society, that the costs of bad choices are not worth bearing,
>>then perhaps we should just refuse to bear those costs.  I'm sorry, you


> [...stuff deleted...]   Stay out of peoples private lives. If they want to
> kill themselves - that should be their choice! 

I agree, if you want to kill yourself by not having a helmet, go ahead.
However, if I have to help pay for your funeral, that is another story.  If
you are under age, under insurred, or broke, then my tax dollar pays.  If
you are injured and any of the above, I have to pay.  That I object to.
That, I think is the whole point to the helmet law.  These people are
irresponsible, not only to themselves, but to the whole socity.
-- 
INTERNET:  ray@Celestial.COM   Ray A. Jones; Celestial Software
UUCP:   ...!thebes!camco!ray   6641 East Mercer Way
             uunet!camco!ray   Mercer Island, WA 98040; (206) 947-5591
The probability of one or more spelling errors in this missive approaches
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: papworth@pdx022 (David Papworth)
Subject: Re: Weather on I-5? (skid control)
Keywords: driving technique - regardless of vehicle
Organization: Intel Corp., Hillsboro, Oregon
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:00:16 GMT

In article <BzFp62.L44@plato.ds.boeing.com> sml@plato.ds.boeing.com (Stuart Lewis) writes:
>
>Sorry, Mark, if I got a little inflamed.  Like I stated in my
>original post, you have to use common sense in the snow, and some of
>the techniques you cite will get you in trouble.  Don't take my word
>for it - ask any net.transplants who are from real snow country (Montana,
>the Dakotas, Nebraska, Wyoming (me)) how they drive.

I grew up in the western Upper Peninsula of Michigan. That area
gets an average of 220 inches of snow every winter. One winter had
more than 380 inches while I lived there. The roads up there are 
"snow covered and slippery" from about November 15 through the end of April.
I had 10 years experience driving in conditions like that.

My experience in driving on snow and ice agrees with pretty much everything
Stuart Lewis says in his posting. Mark Crispin's theoretical arguments
about weight transfer and contact patches are accurate for pavement,
but don't apply on really slippery surfaces. You CAN'T hit the brakes
or gas hard enough to cause any measurable weight transfer on really
slippery roads; the tires will spin or lock and slide way before they 
can develop enough tractive force to cause weight transfer. The
spinning or sliding tires can't steer or even keep the car going in a
straight line.

When the rear end breaks loose on ice in a rear wheel drive car, you back off
the gas (not necessarily all the way, but enough to remove the excess
tractive force that is causing the wheels to spin). The forward weight
transfer is almost insignificant. If the back end is sliding to the left,
the front of the car seems to be turning to the right, so you turn the
steering wheel to the left so the car is pointed in the direction you 
want to travel, instead of at the ditch. It always seemed so obviously 
natural to me that I could never understand why people have to 
think of it as "turning into the skid".
From: sherlock@sleuth.eskimo.com (Jonathan Marsh)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: driving in snow (or other low traction conditions)
Distribution: pnw
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:45:08 PST
Organization: Perpetual Motion Machines Ltd.

    Locking up your brakes while driving in any foul weather conditions is by
far a lame idea. What you need is control while decellerating, preferably using
an anti-lock braking system. Lacking that, try experimenting with the parking
brake &/or feathering the clutch in a downshift in a large parking lot. But as
always, accidents still just happen & so it goes.

-- 

    sherlock@sleuth.eskimo.com           Phone 206-782-4359
From: mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: What does ``turn into a skid'' really mean?
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:05:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: Ikkoku-K.MS-C.724568758.1147902781.mrc
Organization: University of Washington
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mime-Version: 1.0

This is an FAQ, which many people are too embarassed to actually ask because
they think that everyone else but them has a clue.

``Turn into the skid'' means, essentially, that you need to get your front
wheels pointing in the direction the car is going.

Let me explain with two examples:

In example 1, we have an understeer.  You have turned your wheel too hard, and
the front end has broken loose.  No matter how sharply you turn, your front
wheels no longer have adhesion.  If you turn too sharply and hit your brakes,
the resultant weight transfer may turn your skid into an oversteer.

Cure: turn your wheels so they point in the direction the car is going.  When
your front end is again adhering to the road, try your turn again.

In example 2, we have an oversteer.  You have turned your wheel to the right,
and the back end has broken free and is heading left.  If you hit your brakes,
the skid will become more violent and you might lose your front end as well.
The other common error is to turn too far to the left, which simply changes
the direction of your skid.

Cure: turn your wheels to the left, but only until the direction of the skid
starts changing.  Then get your steering into a neutral position, and when the
car is pointing where you want to go, apply power to transfer weight to the
rear wheels.  NO BRAKES.

``Turn into the skid'' was great in explaining understeering situations, but
becomes very confusing in oversteering situations.  The key to remember is to
get your tires moving with the car, not independently.
From: tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Weather on I-5?
Date: 13 Dec 92 17:29:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Dec13.172918.26548
Organization: University of Washington School of Law, Class of '95

What's typical for weather on I-5 over the {Christmas|Solstice} holidays
between Seattle and, say, Sacramento?  I'm only interested in weather that
affects driving.

Are there places that tend to get shut down by snow?  If so, how long do
they stay shut down?  Are there particular times that tend to be bad?
I know that there are places set up with signs to warn when chains are
required, so I assume that at least sometimes they are needed, but how
often does this happen?  Is there anything else I should know before I
try this (I've only driven this in the spring or summer before -- never
winter)?

--Tim Smith
From: kennb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Ken Berger)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Weather on I-5?
Date: 15 Dec 92 21:18:01 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <2341@shaman.wv.tek.com> andrew@frip.wv.tek.com writes:
>And, if you have a manual transmission, don't use first gear.
>Accelerate from a stop in second gear.  You're less likely to lose
>traction.
>

2nd gear starts can be pretty brutal on your clutch.  First gear
starts work fine if you don't reall step on the gas pedel.  Gently
now.....


Ken
From: bill@Celestial.COM (Bill Campbell)
Subject: Re: What does ``turn into a skid'' really mean?
Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:10:06 GMT

In <MS-C.724568758.1147902781.mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM> mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) writes:

>This is an FAQ, which many people are too embarassed to actually ask because
>they think that everyone else but them has a clue.

>``Turn into the skid'' means, essentially, that you need to get your front
>wheels pointing in the direction the car is going.

>Let me explain with two examples:

>In example 1, we have an understeer.  You have turned your wheel too hard, and
>the front end has broken loose.  No matter how sharply you turn, your front
>wheels no longer have adhesion.  If you turn too sharply and hit your brakes,
>the resultant weight transfer may turn your skid into an oversteer.

More likely the car will simply go straight since the locked
front wheels will have absolutely no lateral input (I learned
this in my first SCCA driving school at Marlboro Speedway in
1967:-).  You will have maximum cornering power with the front
wheel with NO acceleration vector -- either brakes or engine
forces with front-wheel-drive.

>Cure: turn your wheels so they point in the direction the car is going.  When
>your front end is again adhering to the road, try your turn again.

Again take your foot OFF the brakes.  Maximum braking is
available only in a straight line with the wheel just short of
locking.  Locking tires increases braking distance.

>In example 2, we have an oversteer.  You have turned your wheel to the right,
>and the back end has broken free and is heading left.  If you hit your brakes,
>the skid will become more violent and you might lose your front end as well.
>The other common error is to turn too far to the left, which simply changes
>the direction of your skid.

>Cure: turn your wheels to the left, but only until the direction of the skid
>starts changing.  Then get your steering into a neutral position, and when the
>car is pointing where you want to go, apply power to transfer weight to the
>rear wheels.  NO BRAKES.

You should also feather the throttle, disenage the clutch, or put
the car in neutral since acceleration or deceleration forces on
the rear wheels will reduce traction.  ``Trailing throttle
oversteer'' is the condition where the rear end will come out
when you drop the throttle while on the limit in a corner, and
may be useful if you want to get the tail end out in a powerless
car :-).

>``Turn into the skid'' was great in explaining understeering situations, but
>becomes very confusing in oversteering situations.  The key to remember is to
>get your tires moving with the car, not independently.

One thing that will help many people is to find a large, empty
parking lot when it snows and play in the snow to find out what
your car does in different conditions.

Bill
-- 
INTERNET:  bill@Celestial.COM   Bill Campbell; Celestial Software
UUCP:   ...!thebes!camco!bill   6641 East Mercer Way
             uunet!camco!bill   Mercer Island, WA 98040; (206) 947-5591
SPEED COSTS MONEY -- HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO?
From: pat@rwing.UUCP (Pat Myrto)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Weather on I-5? (skid control)
Keywords: driving technique - regardless of vehicle
Date: 21 Dec 92 02:38:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: rwing.1844
Organization: Totally Unorganized

In article <BzFp62.L44@plato.ds.boeing.com> sml@plato.ds.boeing.com (Stuart Lewis) writes:
>
> [ ... much quoted stuff deleted ...]

>Never do anything sudden or abrupt - in gas, brakes or
>steering when driving in snow. 

The above is the most important thing regardless of how an individual
car handles.  Probably should be engraved on the inside of the windshield...

When one fishtails because one has goosed it, and THAT is the reason
for the fishtail (as opposed to entering a turn too fast or braking
too hard), backing off the gas and/or de-clutching is what is needed,
not more gas.  Correct for the fishtail conservatively; don't over
control.  Corrective action is influenced by what caused the skid
in the first place.  The descriptions I have read here suggest the
sort of skids resulting from braking or going into a curve too hot.

Another thing I find useful - know the road surface condition.  Just
because it LOOKS ok doesn't mean it is.  I like to (at first safe
opportunity) test traction by tapping the brakes, and when the character
of the road changes, check again.  The result may surprise you.  Be wary
of surfaces too 'clean', or with a bit of a sparkle, especially at night.
Based on personal experience, no fancy schools - just years of driving
experience in Wyoming, Idaho, Illinois, etc.  And keep that interval
between your car and others much larger than you usually would (tailgating
is endemic around here, you open up the interval, invariably some clown
dives in to fill it up).  It makes it that much harder to keep a decent
interval, but icy conditions one must.  Also, keep aware of the fellow
behind you:  Just because you can stop on a dime, doesn't mean he can.
Kinda discouraging if you brake successfuly, only to get hammered in
the rear by someone who DIDN'T.  Assume the car behind you cannot stop
easily, and drive accordingly.  Who is at fault is not important, a bent
car fixed up is never the same.

-- 
pat@rwing.uucp                                  (Pat Myrto),  Seattle, WA
                      If all else fails, try:
         ...!uunet!{pilchuck, polari}!rwing!pat
WISDOM:    "Travelling unarmed is like boating without a life jacket"
From: labelle@hfglobe.intel.com (George La Belle)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Freedom, Social Responsibility, Individual Responsibility
Keywords: Helmet Laws, Drug Laws, etc.
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:31:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: hfglobe.Bz4KCq.JGw
Organization: Intel Corporation

nanook@eskimo.com (Robert Dinse) writes:


>     Society SHOULD be responsible for protecting YOU from ME and ME from
>YOU, society should not be responsible for protecting me from myself.  If we
>decide, as a society, that the costs of bad choices are not worth bearing,
>then perhaps we should just refuse to bear those costs.  I'm sorry, you


	Agree, 100%. Lawyers playing games with the law are basically respon-
 sible for our system being out of balance. If the state says you don't have
 to wear a helmet, they are condoning, supporting, and promoting irresponsible
 action and are responsible for your injuries, right? If the state "legalizes"
 drugs, then they are responsible for someone who abuses them, right? They
 are sending a message that it is OK, right? If the state doesn't make laws
 that say homosexuallity is perverse, then they are trying to recruit more
 gays, right? WRONG! Stay out of peoples private lives. If they want to
 kill themselves - that should be their choice! 

	George (no more land of the "free") La Belle
Newsgroups: pnw.general