From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Liberal/New Age Religion (Was: Santeria and animal-sacrifice)
Date: 11 Nov 92 08:00:11 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <Nov.10.02.14.39.1992.12520@geneva.rutgers.edu>, altheimm@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:

> I find it ironic that such a reasonable and well-thought out response falls
> into the same trap I see in many of the posts on this board, and in the
> Christian community in general.

> In expressing the fear that "Catholics, liberals, or (heaven forbid) 
> Moslems" take over the "Department of Religious Political Correctness" 
> you assume rightly that no department of its kind COULD exist in a country
> that purports religious freedom. The irony is that the fear of many people
> in this country is that Christian fundamentalists are currently attempting
> to establish a fundamentalist nation. Those who oppose this are typically
> labelled Catholics, liberals, Moslems, or worse yet (turn on sarcasm switch)
> atheists, pagans, or new agers. All simple, blind labels.

I think that this fear is no more justifed that the fear of pagans you 
dismiss . . . 

I find it a laughable assertion that fundamentalists want to take over and
establish a fundamentalist nation.  All fundamentalists want to do is stem
the massive lossage of morality this country is undergoing.  They do not want
homosexuality to be exalted as acceptable.  They want proscriptions against
abortion restored.  Unless you call the 50s moral mindset "fundamentalist",
I don't think anyone wants to turn this into a fundamentalist state.

Plus the fact that already this society is becoming increasingly hostile to
Christian morality.  Abstinence is not just not taught, it is forbidden.
Christians are forbidden to meet in public areas.  Christian symbols are
removed from public view (even if on private property).  Homosexuals are given
rights to prosletyze that no Christians are ever given.

> I hope everyone reading this understands that while Christian fundamentalists
> have every right to practice their religion, as protected by the US
> constitution, they have NO right to exclude others from practicing theirs.

The question is not religion, but morality.  The traditional American standard
of morality is being etched away -- or I should say, is collapsing rapidly.
Most fundamentalists would be quite happy with a return to the morals this
nation has had for the first 180 years of its existence.

> Just as anyone can point to the fundamentalist quacks (like the Bakkers et
> al) it is easy to look into pagan and new age religion and find aspects that
> appear ridiculous from the outside. And some of it is ridiculous from the
> inside as well. But a great deal of pagan religion and what is purported to
> be "new age" comes from legitimate, established religious belief, some of it
> predating Christianity by millenia. And among those religions without a
> longstanding tradition, there still exists the freedom to practice those
> beliefs.

Oh, there is no question that the New Age isn't "New".  It's all paganism and
witchcraft from ancient times.  Yes, it predates Christianity.  Unfortunately,
societies based on these religions tended to be much nastier than anything
we've seen today.

> Whether a Christian believes the legitimacy of these beliefs is irrelevant.
> They are protected by the US Constitution, just as Christian beliefs are
> protected. To assume that the predominance of any belief is acceptable or
> even disirable is to allow the establishment of a theocratic state.

Again, the issue is not so much religious belief, as morality.  The U.S. has
never had a standard religion, but until recently we _did_ have a standard
set of morals.

> Remember it was only this year that the Vatican recognized the possibility
> that the earth is round. What they've done for science, they've done for
> society. Why are so many people more afraid of thinking freely than they
> are of God? Nowhere in the bible is thinking proscribed. If your beliefs
> are so weak as to not stand up to any scrutiny, then maybe the necessary
> response is fear, dogma and blindness. It's not the way I want to live,
> nor is the way I believe God intended. 

You are quite, quite incorrect.  It was this year that the official
condemnation of Galileo was removed.  (This was, by the way, concerning
HELIOCENTRISM, that the earth revolves around a stationary sun, not concerning
the shape of the earth.  As we know today, Galileo was in fact wrong anyway.)
The condemnation was against the man, not against his belief; after all,
heliocentrism was around long before Galileo.  The church has acknowledged that
the earth is round for quite a long time.  If you examine the Galileo
situation, you will see that Galileo was not condemned because the church
taught authoritatively that the earth was the center of the universe.  He was
condemned because he was obnoxious, rebellious, and troublemaking.

If you think that the Catholic Church has done society a bad turn, then just
take a look at the societies of the Babylonians, Assyrians, Muslims, Druids,
Aztecs, Romans, Nazis, Hindus, and Communists.

Paganism does society far more harm than Christianity.

> Blessings,

> Murray

--
/===========================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer   For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment, Maynard MA     pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com        they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==========================- 2 Th 2:15 -====================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.