From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Why I became an Athiest (was: frustrations with christianity)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 12:39:34 GMT

I dropeed the xref to alt.atheism.  I hadn't realized it was a place to
discuss reinforcement of that religion, as opposed to looking at both
sides of the issue.

In article <1992Dec14.164010.23173@news.columbia.edu>
rj24@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Robert  Johnston) writes:

>[Note - The author had originally set the followup to only
>soc.culture.jewish in a rather lame attempt to avoid the flame-throwers.]

Not a lame attempt at avoiding anything.  After all, you managed.

>In article <1992Dec14.134324.19541@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>>In article <1992Dec9.212300.6618@netcom.com> madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi
>>Hausmann) writes:

>I don't see any feet in any mouths here, except for your own, Mr. Saal.
>On the other hand, If you meant to say what you say below, I believe
>psychiatric care is in order.


Thanks for your concern over my psychiatric well being.  I wonder if your
concerns are similarly raised for the adherents of all non-atheistic
religions.

>>>Later readings from other atheist scholars helped confirm my beliefs,
>>>but these experiences got me there.  I should also add that since my
>>>father's religious indoctrination (of me) seemed more motivated by

>>I find it interesting that there are atheist "scholars" but no religious
>>ones.  Religion is summed up in her post as no more intellectual than
>>"indoctrination."

>Ahem. You must be reading a different post than I, Mr. Saal. Nowhere
>does Maddi say any such thing. Arguement-by-putting-words-in-other-
>people's-mouths is not a valid debating technique. Try again Mr. Saal.

Pray tell, what words did I put in her mouth?  "scholar"?
"indoctrination"?

>>>duty than his own belief, that this didn't help matters.  My dad is
>>>a Holocaust escapee, and has a strong need to carry on his religion.
>>>Unfortunately (for him), I saw no comfort, love or beauty in it; just 
>>>a lot of "Thou Shalt Nots" and "How can you question this religion your
>>>ancestors died for?"  I understand what he wants, but it didn't make
>>>me want it for me.  He's pretty much failed with my brother, too.  I
>>>still don't think he's figured out why.  I hope any theist 
>>>parents reading this learn from his example.

>>If all you can do is view religion, espceially Judaism, as a series of
>>"don't do's" you have missed out on more than just education.

>Now we get to the heart of the matter. Judaism is the one true way.
>Please dont post this crap to alt.atheism. We don't like people 
>making baseless arguements in support of religion. This is very 
>offending.

Hardly.  Judaism got the "especially" because its what I know best.
That other religions can also be viewed as more than "don't do's" is
simple extrapolation.  Do you find religion to be little more than
restrictions?

As for "baseless," I suppose that if you assume a basis other than
"atheism" it sould seem baseless to you.  Doesn't make it so, of
course. I don't think my point lacks one; I responded directly to her
"experiences" with my own. (In quotes for her .sig)

>By the way, use of generic, meaningless terms like growing does not
>help to vaidate your arguements, Mr. Saal. Only the abilities to use
>Logic and Reason can do that. Isn't it unfortunate how many people
>have lost use of these abilities?

There are plenty of studies to back this up, not that you'd prefer to
know rather than rant, so why not look up any of the recent Jewish
demographic studies - Bnai Brith publishes one every year or so - or you
might read "A Certain People" by Silvermann.  The bookm, or its source
material should serve.

>I know lots of Jews, MR. Saal. I was born Jewish. You, sir, are no Jew,
>only a close minded bigot. Unless you care to argue that all Jews are such. 
>This I will also argue against.

I suppose I must be something of a bigot in that I feel sorry (at best)
for those so close minded as to be able to reject something like Judaism
without knowing anything about it.

BTW, how does your own Jewish birth give you the right, let alone the
ability, to ascertain _my_ Jewishness?

>To those of you reading this on soc.culture.jewish; I suggest that
>you teach Mr.Saal that It is not a good thing for him to give 
>anti-semites ammunition.

Pray tell, what lesson do you recommend?

>To Maddi I would like to say that I appreciate your posts and
>your work as moderator of rec.humor.moderated.

Me, too.  Especially rec.humor.*funny*.  That was my point.  On the other
hand, your need to rant was apparently so strong you couldn't even see the
silly mistake you made in your own post. Hint.  What newsgroup does she
moderate?

>To Mr. Saal: I  Feel very, very sorry for you. Please don't have 
>children; If you are the one teaching them, I fear for their 
>well being. Please lock yourself up somewhere, and throw away the key.
>You are a very scary, pathetic person.

The bitterness, venom, and anger make me thankful I have a long
tradition of values on which to base my behavior.  Maybe in a couple
thousand years you might also attain a degree of civility.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish