From: davis@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis)
Subject: Re: Vampire vs. Hero vs. Gurps etc...(Long!)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:40:48 GMT

I looked at Wildcard's points, and was unconvinced of his 'proof' that the
system behind Vampire: the Masquerade (Storyteller) works.  He uses his game,
where he abondonded the system altogether, as proof that it works.  No, this
is not proof it works.  Actually, it's an inferrence of the opposite: if the
system wasn't so bad, then you'd not have to abandon it like that.  He talks
of narrative combat, and this can be done in any system.  Why did the same
person not use narrative combat in Hero, then turn around and do so in VtM?
Because he *had* to.  Seems more like the Storyteller system is disfunctional.

So, are *bad* mechanics a help to roleplay?  Well, they'll make you avoid the
system.  However, why create bad mechanics when you can just have none?  Having
no system encourages roleplay better than having a bad system.  And, having no
system if *free*.  I would be happier with VtM if it had no system, at least
the game designers would be honest with the gamers.

Wildcard also notes that Hero seemed to encourage 'gamespeak', while VtM did
the opposite.  I have learned the avoidance of 'gamespeak' in Hero, so I find
this to be a *game-independant* development.  Both my exposures of VtM had
'gamespeak'.  My own game (Hero), does not.  With such wildly differing
personal experiences, isn't it more logical that it's a game-independant
development?  (Actually, Hero actively talks about *Special Effects* as the
key to roleplaying the use of powers anyway, so I guess it did help a little,
but I find that these little helps are pretty irrelevant to the gamers.)

Wildcard speaks that VtM creates better atmosphere than Hero or GURPS.  I
think this is a little over-emphasized, here is what I see:  Atmosphere is
'created' solely by the gamers.  The reason VtM seems to have better atmosphere
isn't because it innately does, but because the 'feel' is unified in the text,
as opposed to a universal system, where it is not.  First, does this make
Storyteller somehow a better system?  No.  It says nothing about the system.
Second, can this be overcome with roleplaying, the same roleplaying that is
so important to make VtM work?  Yes.  In fact, I've witnessed it so many
times it's not even funny.  VtM simply gets a 'head start' due to it's unified
atmosphere, but that is about it.  This little advantage just doesn't justify
the overall disaster that the system is.  Once again, the roleplay boils down
to the group.  Systems only do *little* things to encourage roleplay.

I just don't see roleplay as proof, positive or negative, to a system's value.
A system, in itself, is just the mechanical constructs and rules used in the
game.  It's quite independant of roleplay, for the most part.  It can do very
little to 'encourage' roleplay.  What is the system's job?  It's job, to me,
is moderation of events between entitys in the game when roleplay alone does
not offer the solution.  Combat is a common example in most games, as both
sides usually want to win.

I find VtM to be an interesting game world, but hardly an end-all to vampire 
roleplaying.  Imagination by the gamers: that is the end-all.  Period.

-james
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy