From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: A4000 vs 486 ?
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Distribution: world, public
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 00:06:28 GMT

In article <C1HD0G.4s5@utstat.toronto.edu> philip@utstat.toronto.edu (Philip McDunnough) writes:
>In article <1993Jan26.145043.15046@tdb.uu.se> m92mmy@tdb.uu.se (Mattias Myrberg) writes:
>
>[ ]
>>
>>>People are going off the deep end in this group. I use Mac's a lot, as well
>>>as other computers. I don't "detest" Windows and since when have all the
>>>Knuth's of the world surfaced in this group to call the Mac and Windows'
>>>desktop metaphors "stupid".
>>
>>Ok, I'll switch my glossary-file. I think Windows and the MAC GUI are
>>very poor compared to Intuition. And now I'm speaking as a user.
>>
>>"..since when have all the.. ..to call the Mac and Windows' desktop metaphors "stupid.. "
>>
>>Since the day MS released Windows and Apple started to pester the world with
>>their sad excuse for a GUI. You're not saying that they are smart are you ?
>
>The words "stupid" and "smart" are not applicable to the point at hand. Both
>Windows and the Finder are attempts at addressing the problem of the 
>desktop metaphor. Noone said either was perfect. Many obviously don't like
>their respective approaches. They happen to be in a very small minority 
>though. I'd certainly agree that noone has come up with an ideal, or even
>close to ideal solution and that goes for the Amiga.

It sounds as if you are trying to say that the majority is always right.
While I will agree that the majority will usually win, I don't agree that
the majority is always right.  In the part of the US where I live, the
majority liked the idea of segregation and as a result it was enforced by
law for several years, yet I doubt very many people would agree that the
majority was right.

As for someone coming up with an ideal solution to the problems of the
user interface, I seriously doubt that anyone ever will.  If at some point
the majority feels that the user interface is "perfect", the potential for
a better solution is lessened.  People who are satified with the way things
are tend to stagnate, people who are disatisfied will continue to try to do
better.  As someone once said: "Stay hungry".

>>>Also the word "hate" is simply inappropriate.
>>>The only effect messages like these is  having is in  conveying
>>>the impression of Amiga users as a bunch of immature brats.
>>
>>So what's the appropriate word, dislike ?  Feeling better now, hmm ?
>
>All I'm feeling is that you haven't a clue what I'm talking about.

I hope you don't treat your students like you do people here...

>>If there are people out there stupid enough to judge Amiga-users
>>by what they think of various GUI:s then I really feel sad about THEM.
>
>It's not that. The Amiga is a fine computer and certainly people have every
>right to criticize Windows, Finder, Presentation Manager, etc...It's the
>manner in which it's done that counts. Perhaps the Internet should really
>reconsider who gets access to it. It's not at all clear to me that anything
>is solved by the use of inappropriate language, and that seems to be the
>norm here.

Have you ever heard of something called the freedom of speech?  Perhaps you
don't believe in it in your country, but I assure that many US citizens hold
that right very dearly.  Implied in that right is the freedom to not read or
hear anything that you don't want to.  If you find something to be offensive,
either ignore the post, put the author in a killfile, or unsubscribe.  The
people posting on the net are real people who may not subsribe to the same
code of morals and standards that you do.

Anyone wanting to limit access to the internet because they don't like what
someone says or how they say it ranks right up there with Hitler, Stalin,
the Reverend Wilder, and other fascist pigs in my book.

>>>It might be a good idea for those people who want to see the Amiga thrive in
>>>homes to give families a good reason for owning one. I can't think of one.
>>
>>I certainly can think of one,it's useful to know the absolute basics of computing,
>>as computers are the most flexible of todays tools. "educational software" isn't everything.
>
>Then you really haven't got a clue. If you tried selling me an Amiga with 
>that line you'd get 10 seconds of my time. Younger children need not know 
>about the basics of computing, whatever they are. They are far better off  
>concentrating on academic work and using some of the fine educational
>programs that are available (on other platforms).

Here is something that I do agree with you on.  The idea that children must
become computer literate at an early age truly worries me.  A computer can
be used as an effective learning aid, but too many parents use it as a 
baby-sitter instead.  My father brought home an Apple ][ when I was 13 or
so, but I was not allowed to sit inside with it all day instead of doing 
something outdoors.  Unfortunately, it seems that many parents did allow
their children to live at the computer and there now exist hordes of pasty-
faced zit-ridden sociopathic geeks.

>>Oh, and you really get to see what really happens when you use a MAC, eh ?
>
>Irrelevant. See above. Even I don't care about that anymore, and I suspect
>most of the world doesn't either. 

Care about what, the Mac?  Or what is really happening when you use a 
computer?  I hope that I'm just confused, because I believe that many do
care about either one or the other.

>>If I had got a MAC instead of an Amiga, then I'd probably know absolutely nothing about disks,
>>now if you have an Amiga and insert a non-AmigaDOS disk you get a funny
>>message saying "..checksumm error.." and various others.
>
>Big deal. Do you call that learning about anything important? 

This is a rather silly thing to say, don't you think?  To someone who is
interested in a computer related field, such things can be very important.
Have you ever heard a story about a society where all the work was done 
by machines and everyone had a good life?  No one needed to know how the
machines ran and consequently the knowledge of how to fix them was lost.
One day, the machines began to break down, but no one knew what to do.  
As a result, things began to become much worse and many people died because
of their ignorance.

The Mac, and many other things in our society, are too much like that for
me to feel comfortable not knowing how things work.

>>Makes you wanna know what it really means, doesn't it ?
>
>Nope.

It's awfully strange to hear someone who is a scholar saying that he does
not want to know how and why something behaves the way it does.

>>It's nothing like the MAC "Keep user safe and stupid"-policy,
>>"bogus disk inserted, do you want to format etc".
>>You could as well buy your kid a stupid console, what a sad kid that 
>would be.
>
>The Mac approach is more appropriate for younger children and even 98% of the
>population. The days of hacking are over. I for one don't care which cpu

That's not giving the population much credit, now is it?  While I don't
believe that everyone has the potential for being a computer genius, I 
don't believe them all to be stupid either.  And you are very wrong if 
you somehow believe that the days of hacking are over.  

>is used, what the OS is, etc...as long as it runs the software I want it do 
>and in a way I want it do. In particular, anything that hides i/o operations
>is fine with me. That, in my opinion, is the way it should be.

And that's where you suddenly drop to the level of any ordinary user.

>>"I think therefor I Amiga"    -says it all, and the reversed is most true.
>>
>>Seriously, your article says nothing.
>
>Then why bother replying?

To watch you squirm, maybe?

>Philip McDunnough
>University of Toronto
>philip@utstat.toronto.edu

Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu