From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: RE: damnation
Date: 16 Oct 92 07:49:20 GMT
Organization: FNAL

In article <Oct.14.00.18.00.1992.23435@geneva.rutgers.edu>
eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco) writes:

> Many evangelical Christians I know seem to deny that
>Christians will be judged; somehow, we all get off scot-free without so much
>as a word.  To them, only the unrighteous are judged. 

Boy, I don't know who you've been talking to, but evangelical theology is
replete with the message of judgment.  However, the judgment of those "in
Christ" is not unto condemnation, but unto reward.  The judgment of those
outside of Christ is unto condemnation.  The Judgment Seat of Christ is a bema
seat, a seat illustrated by the Olympics in their rewarding of metals.  There
will be initially some regret because of the lack of rewards.  We talk of some
getting into heaven by the skin of their teeth, or that some of the saints will
be walking around in mini-skirts.  But as we are told, these tears will be
wiped away.  The significance of rewards in heaven isn't for self
glorification, its in having something to throw at the feet of Christ in
adoration.  Thus this Scriptural passage:

>> The doctrine of Purgatory is extra-Biblical.  
>
>Personal I think it is, check out I Cor 3:10ff.  This is essentially what
>purgatory is. 

No, no, no.  That's not EVEN what's being taught here and if you press this,
then you are guilty of eisegesis.  Continue on to v.16, and notice that the
body is involved here.  The context is "this life time."  There isn't even the
vaguest reference to "purgatory."  Come on now, let us reason together.  


> We will enter the all-holy presence of the Lord after death,
>which is a consuming fire.  Everything within us -- all the bad that we do,
>all those areas which we have not given up to him, all of the sins we cling
>to -- will be unable to withstand the fire, and they will burn.  This will be
>painful, but we will escape, as one through fire.
>
>I don't hear too many Protestant preaching on 1 Cor 3:10ff much.

And how many Protestant preachers have you heard?  The context of this passage
is whether or not our "good" works will survive the judgment of Christ unto
receive reward.  i.e. have you done this thing in and of yourself, or did you
do it in the power of the Holy Spirit?  Where is purgatory in all this??? Its
not only the bad works that get's burnt up here, its the good that we do for
self glorification.  If you do as the Pharisees do, an outwardly righteous act,
and get what you were trying to acheive, the honors of men, then you have had
your reward, and therefore you are not to expect a 2nd reward in heaven.  What
we do in secret will He reward us openly.
>
>There is also much other Biblical evidence.

___________________________  (Please fill in the blank)
>
>> If that doesn't bother you, so be it.  But just let it be known that
>> it is not a doctrine of either the Scriptures, of Christ or of the
>> early fathers.
>
>There is also patristic evidence for purgatory.  It was also a doctrine of the
>Jews of the time; read Josephus, On Hades:
>
>AN EXTRACT OUT OF JOSEPHUS' DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS ONCERNING HADES 
>
How about an extracts from  Plato's "Phaedrus" or Virgil:

                 Nor can the grovelling mind,
   In the dark dungeon of the limbs confined,
   Assert the native skies, or own its heavenly kind,
   Nor death itself can wholly wash their stains;
   But long-contracted filth, even in the soul, remains
   The relics of inveterate vice they wear,
   And spots of sin obscene in every face appear.
   For this are various penances enjoined;
   And some are hung to bleach upon the wind,
   Some plunged in water, other purged in fires,
   Till all the dregs are drained, and all the rust expires.
   All have their Man s, and those Man s bear.
   The few who cleansed to these abodes repair,
   And breathe in ample fields the soft Elysisan air.
   Then are they happy, when by length of time
   The scurf is worn away of each committed crime;
   No speck is left of their habitual stains,
   But the pure ether of the soul remains.  

hmmm.  Where did the Greeks get their religious base?  It's easily documented
in the conquests of their subjects, especially when one studies Egyptian
antiquities and their mystery religions.  So the question is, which came first,
the chicken or the egg?  RCism has never demonstrably rejected Greek ideology
either from Plato or Aristotle.  Again, this is of human origin, for it does
not wash with the Christ/Scriptural model of salvation by faith and faith
alone.
>
>> It is just as you have stated, a "compromise,"  man trying to
>> water down the severity of retribution against his sinful freewill choices. 

>
>No, keep in mind that purgatory is for those who deserve to enter Heaven, not
>for those who deserve to enter Hell.  

Its like an old ex-RC nun told me from St Louis, "It got to the point that I
didn't know whether I should flog myself 100 times or 101 times.  What if I did
it 100 times and I find out that the cut of was 101 and one times?"  She was
really saying something here and she was talking a bout a very real practice of
self-flagellation. She open her Bible and read to me from Matt.23:13ff.

Matt. 23:13   "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you
shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves,
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."


>You are the one who tries to water down
>the severity of retribution against man's sinful freewill choices, since you
>no doubt believe that a Christian is not held accountable for his behavior
>and will not have to answer for his deeds after death. 

Ah em!  "There is therefore now, *NO* condemnation for those that are in Jesus
Christ."

>Concerning Jesus going down into Hell, I should point out to Douglas that what
>was meant in this verse is that Jesus went down to SHEOL, or HADES, *NOT*
>Gehenna, that is, the hell you think of.  Many versions of the Scriptures
>translate two entirely different words "Hell".  Sheol, or Hades, was, in the
>Old Covenant, the land of the dead, where everyone went. 

I wonder if there is a faq on this?  Sheol is Hebrew, Hades is Greek.  Gehenna
is the illustration that Christ used of Hades.  Tartarus, however, is entirely
a different dwelling place with different residents.  These are the demons that
left their proper abode.  Christ was announcing to them judgment, not
redemption.  

>Jesus went to preach to those who died before his coming, and to
>free the righteous who went before.

Again, the Greek word is not our English word "preached" as you have it leading
to some kind of redemption.  

our goal is to "Rightly divide the Word of Truth" Rex