From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 19 Nov 92 07:41:37
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<1992Nov18.215925.3513@cis.ohio-state.edu>
	<1992Nov19.010133.8108@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<1992Nov19.061548.20932@cis.ohio-state.edu>
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In-reply-to: khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu's message of Thu, 19 Nov 1992 06:15:48 GMT

On Thu, 19 Nov 1992 06:15:48 GMT, khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry
khaikin) said: 

> What is scary about all this is that
> sooner or later you or your children will step even lower and then, G-d
> forbid, will just get out of it. I know a lot of Reform people that are
> xians now and have no idea about Judaism (nor about xnity). 

This is certainly not a given conclusion. Just we we know people who are less
religious than their parents, we know folks that are more religious. Just as
you have adherents of Reform that drift into Christianity, you also have
dedicated members of Reform who stay Reform, and members of Reform who become
Baal Teshuvah, and go into Orthodoxy.

I don't think the drift is a matter of movement; it's a matter of upbringing
and education. You don't see it in Orthodoxy because the Jewish education is
so integral to the movement. You see it to some extent in Conservative, and
more in Reform, because of parental attitudes that don't teach the kids the
importance of Judaism.

(Children are one thing. What does one do when one's *father* starts attending
Churches?)

> I even know people that
> are Reform and used to laugh at the way Orthodox pray. 

Well, there are ill-mannered people in every movement.

> They said it too much and way too strict and they did not need to to that in
> order to stay jewish.

They didn't. Are your friends still Jewish (not their children, but your
friends). Orthodoxy is, in many ways, too strict. This is because the
strictness comes about not because of biblical laws, but because of fences
upon fences upon fences upon fences. Traditions so old they become law, but
have no basis.

> Well, two years after they said this to me they were
> shocked to find out that their daughter is converting to xnity. Well,
> you might call it just a coincidence, but I call it natural finish.

What form of Jewish education did they provide their daughter? Although not
Orthodox, did they keep a Jewish home? Did they instill Jewish values? Did
they observe the holidays? These activies are possible regardless of the
movement.

It's not the movement's faults. It's the parents.

> Try to understand that if you are
> Conservative you are already one step down, the next step is Reform, 

But the flow is not a given; assimilation is not guaranteeds. Judaism,
whatever the form, requires work.

Furthermore, as I've said before, I know the child of a Reform Rabbi who
rebelled by becoming Orthodox. What's there to say? How do you object?

> BUT WHAT IS THE NEXT ONE, THERE IS NOTHING LEFT OF JUDAISM AFTER THAT.

Actually, there's Secular Humanistic Judaism ala Rabbi Sherman Wine

> Recently, I talked to one girl from an Orthodox family. She did not want
> her parents to know but she does not really like Orthodox Judaism. She
> likes Concervative more. I asked her why. Her answer was pretty much
> that it is too hard and there is alot to do.

Then this child does not understand what Conservative is; she is responding to
a stereotype. There is the misconception in our community that Reform  and
Conservative exist because Orthodoxy is too hard, too stringent. That's wrong.

Reform is the product of the German Enlightenment of the 1800s. Its goal was
to apply rationality and reason to Judaism. Although initially it did blindly
discard, THAT IS NOT REFORM TODAY. Reform today emphasizes the serious study
of the laws to determine what has meaning and adds sanctity to your life. It
goes from the basis of the Torah and Talmud as documents of man, inspired by
G-d (not penned by...) Conservative holds divine authorship for the Torah, but
human authorship for the rest. Principles follow from these basis.

If someone came to me from Orthodoxy and said they wanted to be Reform because
it was "easier", I would tell them they were wrong. Reform is, in many ways,
harder, because you have to think about what you do. If all you want to do is
observe less rules, stay Orthodox and don't practice. There are plenty that
do. 

> Then I asked her why doesn't she want to become Reform? -:Oh, she said, I am
> not crasy, you look at them and they look like (the next is exacly what she
> said:) a ch-rch.

Well, he said (sounding like Lloyd Bentsen), I've been in Churches, and I've
been in Reform Synagogues. My friend, Reform Synagogues look *nothing* like a
church.

> That's the biggest problem with C. and R. they don't stay with their
> opinions they move further as the media (goyim) moves.

I disagree with this. Yes, the practices of C and R move, but look where
they're moving. If what you said was true, you'd have R moving more to the
Xtian practice. In reality, its the other way around; R is becoming
increasingly theological with increasing practice.

In this political campaign, it was considered a bad thing to have done
something wrong in your youth. There was never given any credence to the
possibility that we learn from our experiences.

Reform has learned from its experiences. The days of the Treifa Banquet and
Isaac Meyer Wise are gone. Reform is increasinging adding tradition back into
its practice as it learns more, but it is not blindly doing this; it is doing
it after study. What they non-Jewish world does is not a factor in how Reform
chooses its practice.

Daniel
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