From: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Ref: Why I am not a Muslim [was re: Why I am an atheist/Christian...]
Date: 26 Aug 1992 12:37:06 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <adams.714849832@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah) writes:
>
>>>Article 67643 of talk.religion.misc:
>
>>>From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)

[stuff deleted]

>>>>	Do you know of any other religion so similar to what Jesus
>>>>	spoke of, and yet is also at peace with what our minds tell
>>>>	us of the natural world?  
>>>Yeah, real Christianity.  Jesus' message is exactly what you say.  Any
>>>corruptions over the ages are in the same category as the corruptions that
>>>have entered Islam...like the Ayatollah Khomeni and his gang, for example.
>>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Please elaborate with specifics otherwise I can't respond to you.
>Hostage taking?  Execution of political dissidents?  Etc.

A good point.  I realize that I have made a small mistake here of omission.
I have omitted to qualify all my posts on Islam as being based on the
Qur'an and the sayings and actions of the Prophet, to the best of my
knowledge.  If I have failed, there are probably a couple of Muslims who
will put me to rights - gently or otherwise :-)  So having said that, I
can honestly tell you that the taking of hostages in Islam is lawful but
in the context of prisoners of war.

	[47:4]
	Therefore, when you meet the Rejecters of Faith (in battle),
	smite at their necks; at length when you have thoroughly
	subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the
	time for) either generosity or ransom...

As to taking hostages in peace time without any threat of war, this is
a violation of freedom which is a protected right in Islam.
Execution of political dissidents amounts to taking a life when no life
has been taken.  The Qur'an does not uphold this as justice.

[stuff deleted]

>>>It is not, IMHO, reasonable to claim, as some scriptural literalists do, that 
>>>the Bible is inerrant on ALL topics.  The Bible, like all literature, makes
>>>use of allegory, metaphor, poetry, simile, parables, etc.  Nothing wrong
>>>with that, and it doesn't mean that it wasn't inspired.  Even direct,
>>>plenary verbal inspiration can allow for allegorical and metaphorical
>>>stories!  God can do anything, don't ya know.
>
>>You're right again: the Qur'an too uses various allegories, metaphors, etc.
>>However, it is stretching it somewhat to call the story of creation in 
>>Genesis a parable.
>
>Not at all.  Why is it stretching to call it an allegory or parable?  It is
>a poetic description of man's relationship with God and creation.  I don't
>see the problem with this at all.  Care to enlighten me?

I think we have reached an impasse on this point, I say it is and you say it
isn't - or is that the other way around :-)?  No further argument from me
therefore - perhaps the Qur'an will provide a good contrast for you.

>>Based on your points and mine, I would suggest that you first read the 
>>Qur'an so that perhaps we can have some common ground to stand on (I
>>attended Catholic high school, and have read most of the Bible).  However,
>>this is only a suggestion (and, again, take it in the best of intentions).
>Agreed...and since you're sending it, I'll have no excuse!
>>>Islam is no more entitled to special pleading than Christiaity.  If you get 
>>>to use special pleading, then so do Christians.
>>I have not used any 'special pleading', and in fact, I've tried to emphasize
>>that there is no need for this in Islam because the Qur'an is truthful.
>In ussing 'Special pleading', I am referring to plenary verbal inspiration 
>for Christians and the 'God written' status you assign to the Qur'an.  Neither
>can ever be proven, and thus fall into a faith-based special pleading.

It may be that I'm learning something from all this: why God and the last 
Messenger emphasized that it is a Muslim's duty to simply inform and not to
force the Truth down anyone's throat.  It is that since the Qur'an is the
Word of God, not even Muslims can say they understand it completely.  The
Qur'an itself says
	[17:85]
	...of knowledge, it is only a little that is communicated
	to you (O mankind).
Therefore, it really is only God who can guide someone to a 'proof' which is
acceptable to that person - and this relates a little to your point.

>God Bless.

And you too.  Peace.

> -Steve

Ahmed A. Abd-Allah