HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: max@admin.mport.COM (Max)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: -REAL- Christians dont know god is dead
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:39:51 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Microport Inc., Scotts Valley, CA 95066 US of A

sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner) writes:

>[ max@admin.mport.COM (Max) corrects my misunderstanding of his post  . . .]

>My apologies.  I mistakenly thought that when you typed 
>|> ben claimes that its not just a belief in god, it "TRUE".
>you meant "ben claims that it's not just a belief in god, it's 'TRUE'", 
>i.e. that you had changed the subject to belief in God, and were no 
>longer discussing secular arguments for religiously based moral beliefs
>(usenet threads have been known to change subjects from time to time, 
>after all).  Perhaps the change you made to the subject line influenced 
>my reading of your intentions.  

admittedly, a little over the top on my part.

>	Now that I understand what you were saying . . .  I think I agree 
>with you, after a fashion -- not about God, of course, but that 
>religiously based moral claims don't carry weight outside the 
>religious tradition from which they come.  How you do construct a 
>debate about moral issues when there's no common basis for morality I 
>haven't figured out, however.  
>Steve Schaffner        sschaff@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu

it is a difficult question. i find it all the more frustrating due to the
easy overlap in morality between various religions and philosophies. that
is, the discussion of moral beliefs works fine until one party or the other
stops using arguments that are subject to debate. in most ways, it seems
that most moral codes agree more than they disagree. 

-max

=====================================================================
  \\\///   | 		             | the above represents my 
  //@@\\   | yet another nude biker  | opinion only, and is subject
  // \ \   | 		             | to change. 
  // - \   ----------------------------------------------------------  
    """    | max@mport.com | dod:234 | protect the bill of rights
=====================================================================
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Matthew Manning's psychokinetic achievements
Date: 27 Jan 1993 15:12:41 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <nkjrm.109@taxus.uib.no>, nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne) writes:
>What I want to know, however, is if there exist investigations of scientific 
>merit of the claimed achievements of Matthew Manning.
>
>Two investigators of Manning's achievements are named in Dammann's 
>book, a Canadian psychiatrist Joel Whitton and a British neurochemist 
>Glen Rein. A library search shows Whitton as the author of a book on 
>reincarnation and G. Rein as a bona fide scientist but apparently without 
>scientific publications bordering upon the paranormal. Does anyone know 
>what else these people have done?

You'd do better to ask whether Manning's achievements have been investigated by
a stage magician.  Since many of his "achievements" sound quite reminiscent of
well-known conjuring effects, any team attempting to test Manning's claims
would do well to have an expert in that field as a member.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:22717 alt.atheism:26771
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Eve Mitochondia?
From: kerr@redgum.ucnv.edu.au (r.kerr)
Date: 22 Jan 1993 00:29:16 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: University College of Northern Victoria (Bendigo)
NNTP-Posting-Host: redgum.ucnv.edu.au

In article <STIGH.93Jan21132230@harry.itk.unit.no> stigh@itk.unit.no (Stig Atle Haugdahl) writes:
>
>In article <eur.727528220@dutncp8> eur@dutncp2.tn.tudelft.nl (Eur van Andel) writes:
>> 
>> Not quite true. All of mankind DOES descend from one woman, and MORE than
>> one man. (this is a bit difficult to understand, but true nontheless )
>> 
>Very difficult to understand. Did she have more than one father?

  An astute observation Eur.  Mitochondrial RNA is only supplied by the
_mother_.  Studies of mutation rates of mitochondrial RNA allow one to
estimate the number of generations since some supposed common female
ancestor, but they can never supply any information about male
ancestory.

Regards,
  Richard.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Reply-To: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 15:56:51 GMT

In article <kHHVXB6w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us>,
system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa) writes:
> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
> 
>> 	Yes, I know it was snide. And you may believe that I am a
>> blockhead if you wish. But if _Back to Godhead_ contains lots of
>> things that seem silly, then one might be tempted to come up with some
>> unflattering nicknames for the publication.
> 
> True, but "seeming silly" is not really a very reliable criterion for
> making a final conclusion. One has to realize that the ancient world
> culture was full of people no stupider than those of today. Their
> science was expressed differently, but they were not fools. To
> understand what they wrote, one must accept that it does make sense.

   It's the demonstrably false stuff you've upllinked that does it for
me.  "Back to Blockhead" is almost complimentary compared to what the
misrepresentations and general bullshit you've shown us from that 
erstwhile mag deserve.

>> 	But try looking at the Moon through a small telescope sometime
>> and see if it looks like "cosmic fire".
> 
> In truth, I must say yes, the Moon does look like cosmic fire to me. So
> does the earth, for that matter.

   The same way a creationist sees a young earth; he alows his prejudice to
dictate to his eyes.  I looked at the moon last night and it looked like rock
reflecting sunlight :).  Of course since shit-for-brains tries to win arguments
by defining terms he's been using for 10 posts for the first time in a
benificial way.

   So...             ...what is "cosmic fire?"  Sunlight reflected off rock?

Dan
Danwell@IASTATE.EDU
From: alexk@essex.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: 'vedic' maths? (Pardon my ignorance)
Date: 27 Jan 93 12:58:07 GMT
Reply-To: alexk@essex.ac.uk ()
Organization: University of Essex, Colchester, UK


	Please pardon my ignorance but i was talking to an old school friend
who told me about something he was reading. It was a book about maths 
princeples apparently devised by an 'Indian' (apologises for coreectness) who
was orginally intending a 16 volume series but died after only writng 1! The
book which I have only had a glance shows some very nifty techniques for
solving simple multiplications to partial fractions and integrals etc. He 
told me that the 'ideas' were known as 'vedic' (easier to say than spell).

	I (but more he) would be interested to know if this mans work has been
continued at all, and if so where details could be found. I apoplogise for the
possible/probable errors in this posting, but I am waiting for him to finish
the book so that I can have a look.

	Yours in-need-of-enlightenment,

	K.A.

P.S. Sorry if this is an FAQ but are there any GIF's of the 'Pyramids On Mars'
I was lead to belive that they may be available. Then again I may be talking
a load of rubbish!!!!!


------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Alexander.     | Pretentious Quote:  "Uzi Nine Millimetre" |
University of Essex. |                             (Shakespeare) |
alexk@essex.ac.uk.   | Disclaimer: I never wear fluffy slippers. |
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: johnsd2@jec323.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM
Date: 24 Jan 93 19:47:35 GMT
Reply-To: johnsd2@jec323.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

In article 7VHVXB7w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us, system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa) writes:
>lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>
>> >Actually, the Vedas state that the Moon is 800,000 miles HIGHER than the
>> >Sun, in the plane of the Bhu-mandala system, not that it is farther away
>> >in terms of linear distance.
>> 
>> 	What's the "Bhu-mandala system"?
>
>The Bhu-mandala system is a gigantic disk-shaped region in
>higher-dimensional space. Its 3-dimensional projection is on the
>ecliptic. Ordinary human beings cannot see the physical disk of
>Bhu-mandala, because our senses are not sophisticated enough. But its
>existence has been reported by demigods and advanced yogis.

Why can't any of our instruments detect this oddity- I mean if
the planets were moving of 4-spaces, surely we'd notice
something?

>>       And is the Moon _closer_ in linear distance, or isn't it?
>
>Yes, the Moon is closer in linear distance, but higher than the sun in
>the "z" coordinate. However, this is a 3-dimensional analogue of what is
>actually a higher dimensional situation.

Wow, this actually makes some sence, Kalki!

Doesn't seem terribly connected with reality tho. If tehse
things are in different places in n-spaces (n=whatever just > 3)
why do they wind up projected into 3-space at all?

>> >Eclipses are explained as the result of the planet Rahu passing
>> >between the sun and the earth, or the moon and the earth. In modern
>> >astronomy, the planet Rahu is identified as the moon's ascending node,
>> >which is indeed in line with the sun-moon-earth system during an
>> >eclipse.
>> 
>> 	There is no such thing as a planet separate from the Moon that
>> causes eclipses.
>
>So you say, but this is only your opinion. You cannot see Rahu, but that
>does not mean it doesn't exist.

But we CAN see the body that causes the eclipses- both during, before
and after the event. It is quite clearly the moon.

So what makes you think Rahu has anything to do with it?

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
From: swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Astrology: weaning a loved one
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:12:33 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <93021.51706.L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>, L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
|> From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)(in answer to a prior question)
|> 
|>      Cold reading is ...
|> 
|> End quote:
|> 
|>   This sounds like the technique employed by my gypsy grandmother in her
|> youth fortunetelling by reading palms. ...

Of course it does - she *was* using cold reading.  The technique is the core
skill for a good fortuneteller.

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
From: haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Cold reading (was Re: Astrology: weaning a loved one)
Date: 22 Jan 93 19:15:48 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: hobbes.ucsc.edu


In article <93021.51706.L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>
>  This sounds like the technique employed by my gypsy grandmother in her
> ...
>She was truly amazing.  She could get almost anyone to tell her all
>about themselves, and leave them with the impression that she had told
>them.

This reminds me of an article I read in some magazine years ago.  A woman
was asked by the P.T.A. or some such school organization to do a "gypsy
fortune teller" booth at a fund-raising bazaar.  She made herself a costume
and wore lots of makeup such that probably nobody would recognize her.
As the event went on she was at first amused, then increasingly horrified
that her neighbors were telling her their most intimate secrets, and
sincerely believed that she had the power to see their futures and advise
them.

I'm sure some of the same stuff is used in quack health practices.  I was
trying to demonstrate this to a friend who expressed some faith in
iridology.  I looked closely at his eye, asked "Do you smoke?"; he
replied, "I did, but I quit."  I said, "Yes, I see you have some
lung damage, but it is getting better."
-- 
haynes@cats.ucsc.edu
haynes@cats.bitnet

"Ya can talk all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!"
"No it aint!  But ya gotta know the territory!"
        Meredith Willson: "The Music Man"
From: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Astrology: weaning a loved one
Date: 25 Jan 93 11:23:35 GMT
Reply-To: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Organization: Edinburgh University

You won't get any joy asking for a mechanism.  Any astrologer with half
a wit will reply "I don't know.  It just seems to work so well that
there must be some sort of mechanism."  That's if they don't spout
Rupert Sheldrake or some sort of Cosmic Harmony crap.

And you won't get any joy talking about precession.  My girlfriend uses
an ephemeris that includes corrections for fifty-six second differences
between GMT and the actual rotation of the earth.  Astrologers claim
that the signs are just names for twelve divisions of the ecliptic
starting at the First Point of Aries (which is, I think, in Pisces these
days).
  __                                  _____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley   pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \\ //
/\__/ Trust me. I know what I'm doing. \X/ 
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: riggs@descartes.tec.army.mil (Bill Riggs)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: "Satanic Ritual Abuse" in the media
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:20:52 GMT
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: LNK Corporation, Riverdale, MD

In article <BHsZXB3w164w@cellar.org> revpk@cellar.org (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:

>	Mr. canzi also seems to be responding to others pointing out the
>lack of evidence for Satan-worshippers killing babies, by claiming that
>because there's no evidence, that just goes to show how extensive and
>powerful these Satanists are. By the same logic, we might easily assume that
>Mr. Canzi is a Satan-worshipper, covering up his own involvement in child
>murder by adopting a more strident, anti-'Satanist' tone.
>
>	I don't suppose it'd make much different to state that members of
>the Church of Satan do not murder children.
>

	And how do YOU know this, Brian ? Is the assertion that 
"members of the Church of Satan do not murder children" one of those
extraordinary claims that require extraordinary evidence - or not ?

	Or are you simply making this assertion with the knowledge
that, under the law, one is innocent until proven guilty ?
	

	Clearly, this whole exchange started because someone out
there had an ideological agenda, not because there was some massive
misconception in the American public having to do with Satanic
cults. After all, if there ARE any real Satan worshipers out there
killing babies - well, all you "enlightened folks" surely realize
that it was all due the fact that those poor, sick, misguided 
people were all child abuse victims themselves, not any such 
old-fashioned notion like "sin" or malevance on the subjects'
part. 



Bill R.

--

"When up a dangerous faction starts,         "My opinions do not represent
With wrath and vengeance in their hearts;     those of my employer or
By solemn League and Cov'nant bound,          any government agency."
To ruin, slaughter, and confound;             - Bill Riggs (1992)
To turn religion to a fable,
And turn the Government to a Babel;
Pervert the law, disgrace the gown,
Corrupt the senate, rob the crown;
To sacrifice old England's glory,
And make her infamous in story.
When such a tempest shook the land,
How could unguarded virtue stand ?"
- Jonathan Swift (1732)

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: dfox@quack.sac.ca.us (David Fox)
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: 27 Jan 1993 06:44:16 UTC

In article <1993Jan25.173817.3299@cnsvax.uwec.edu> mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>
>
>     Although the following article is on the subject of religious studies, it
>illustrates some important facts about the Universe:

[200+ lines of absolute bullshit deleted]

HMM.  I thought I was one OF THOSE divine MASTERS.  SEND me LOTS of MONEY.

YOU need to be DEPROGRAMMED.  ECK is a CULT.



-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
in real life: david fox            email: dfox@quack.sac.ca.us
5479 Castle Manor Drive,                  
San Jose, CA 95129                 "Thanks for letting me change some
USA                                 magnetic patterns on your HD" -me
408-253-7992                        
"You've just won an absolutely FREE trip to the Isles of Langerhans" -me
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: An Interesting Question For ProLifers
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 05:55:24 GMT

haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes) writes:
] In article <1993Jan18.195047.9962@iscsvax.uni.edu> crew@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
] >To offer a tongue-ever-so-slightly-in-cheek counter-conspiracy theory:
] >The same people who are convinced of the existence of these Satanic 
] >breeders seem to be many of the fundamentalist right who want 
] >to recriminalize abortion.  
] >Is this propaganda to scare people into passing laws requiring 
] >registration and monitoring of all pregnancies? 
] 
] Well I was wondering if those who claim all those Satanic murders are
] simply counting abortions to come up with their numbers.  Statements
] of anti-abortion partisans suggest that they consider (fertilized ova,
] embryos, fetuses,...) to be living children capable of being murdered.


I have taken the liberty of sending this around to 
the two groups that May actually be able to get
us an answer from any of the folks who are actively
involved in the ProLife Movement.

Granted, it is a Matter that may not be for 
dissemination to those of the UnBelief.....


ciao
drieux


-- 
MajorModernDayProblems: 

sometimes, a thing will happen after another thing, 
and they may not be connected.....
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Query: Document on AIDS as a biotech mistake?
Date: 21 Jan 93 20:50:05 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)

In article <C14IGs.Er7@demon.co.uk>, gtoal@pizzabox (Graham Toal) writes:
>:Yes.  Probably because sterilization (by a flame) was pretty poor and
>:probably not always done.  The injectors were used over and over again,
>:with maybe 20 seconds between shots on a good day.

>Wait a sec - aren't we talking about that time when there was a fad for
>those star-trek style air-pressured injectors?  The ones that they
>discovered a few years later were *really* nasty for cross-infecting?

You got it!  They were abandoned at the time as breaking down too often
in the field.  In general, all the methods were probably crossinfective
to a high degree.  Ten years ago, I would have read the description of
operators immunizing 1000 or 2000 people in one day and been amazed.
Now, in light of the rapid rise of the AIDS epidemic in central Africa,
I read it and instead I am horrified.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 03:28:46 EST
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:

> In article <TBiqXB3w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us> system@kalki33.lakes.tr
> 
> >In truth, the Vedas contain numerous accounts of "space flight" (i.e.
> >interplanetary travel by means of mechanical vehicles). Satsvarupa was
> >well aware of this fact when he wrote the article, and he never said
> >otherwise.
> 
> 	Like what accounts of spaceflights?

Read Srimad Bhagavatam or the Mahabharata.

Sincerely,
Kalki Dasa

       ---------------------------------------------------------
      |                Don't forget to chant:                   |
      |                                                         |
      |  Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare   |
      |       Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare          |
      |                                                         |
      |    Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA      |
      |           (kalki@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us)           |
       ---------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: New Physics, Healing, Paranormal
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:40:15 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

 (Christopher Jon Petit) writes:
> As for all the ESP info---consider this.  There are many urban legends which
>involve ESP as 'saving the day'  Now, in order for ESP not to exist, EVERY ONE
>of those stories must have either an alternate explaination or be totally false
>.  But, if even one has no such explaination, and is somewhat true, then ESP
>exists in some form.

  But that doesn't follow that I or anyone else has to be able to SHOW
  you what the alternative explanation is.  

  Basically your logic is faulty.  YOU have made the positive assertion 
  (ESP is real) therefore YOU have the obligation to support it.  I'm
  under no obligation to DISprove your positive assertion.  The reason
  for this is simple: it is possible to assert numerous, mutually exclusive
  positive claims ("e.g., "all green planets are mass > 1 Earth"
  "all green planets are mass < 1 Earth") so you can't default to a
  rule that says that any non-DISproven positive assertion is true.

  What if I hypothesized that all these ESP "saving the day" events
  are due to some OTHER uproven phenomenon, say GII (God Induced 
  Information).  Since you can't prove that all these things aren't
  caused by GII, instead of ESP, why should be believe your hypo-
  thesis?

  As I've said before, I believe this is THE most common logical
  fallacy on Usenet: that if you make a positive assertion it's up
  to someone else to disprove it or it should be taken as true.
              

---peter
                                                               

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism