From: chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: I'm a bit pissed...
Summary: I can't believe he sprung this trap!
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:16:28 GMT
Organization: California State University: Sacramento


I can't believe he sprung this trap! 

It's one of the oldest traps that pro-lifers have ever set for
pro-choice activists!

In article <1992Jul24.011954.16225@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis) writes:
>
>I looked in a bunch of medical dictonaries, and several regular ones at that,
>and without execption none of them mentioned a heart even in passing as a 
>condition of abortion.  The most common description was one of "expulsion of
>products of conception."  Oodles of types of abortion were mentioned, with
>all kinds of modifiers, as a matter of fact, the text following "abortion"
>often ran onto another page or column, depending on the format of the 
>particular dictionary.  Just one of those types, which I think Ms. Regard
>mentioned as 30% being the low figure and 60% being the high figure has no
>heart involved whatsoever.

90+% of all abortions are carried out at or after 7 weeks after
conception. Let's compare that to an embryology textbook: 

A heart starts beating in the z/e/f as late as 4 weeks after
conception. 

Logically, 7 weeks is after 4 weeks. Unless, of course, you live in
the Hekhueian universe, in which 4 comes later than 7 and the alphabet
starts at Z and ends at A... 

Care to name one of those medical textbooks, Galen? And include the
reference WRT surgical abortion and when the majority of them are
performed. 

FACT: The human heart beat does not begin at birth. It begins 3-4
weeks after fertilization. 
FACT: Surgical abortions, in 90-100% of all cases, are carried out
after that. 
FACT: (Surgical) abortions stop a beating heart just as surely as a
loaded handgun. 

FACT: You lost this battle. 

>Mr. Porter (Don Porter -- if I say the name enough, will he respond?) asserted
>that Mr. Clausen was stating a simple fact.  I responded (at least twice) that
>Mr. Porter must be unclear as to his conception of abortion.  It is not a
>fact (simple or complex) that abortion stops a beating heart.  Mr. Kellmeyer
>jumped in, and to his credit said that *surgical* abortion stops a beating
>heart.  However neither Mr. Porter nor Mr. Clausen have responded.  
>
>I don't really care when fetal heartbeat begins, but quite simply abortion 
>does not stop a beating heart.  Indeed, there are many abortions in which
>absolutely no heart is involved.   Asserting that "abortion stops a beating
>heart" is rather like saying that "airplane crashes kill people."  Sure, some
>crashes kill people, others every passenger and the pilot walk away from (they
>are called landings).

Your facts are way wrong, Galen. Keep on with this issue and we'll
bury your assertions and your dignity along with it. 

>Mr. Clausen -- Mr. Porter -- have you anything to say?  Or you hoping this 
>subject will go away and die?

Well, I have something to say: 
Airplane crashes kill people, and that's why it's illegal to induce a
crash with passengers on board. 

If that and that alone were your basis on rating our judgement, it
would consistently show that abortion fits the realm of acts which can
justifiably be banned. 

You may be weaker than I thought in this issue. 

>It sure seems to me that the people who would legislate against (in this 
>case) abortion don't know what the hell they are talking about.

They know exactly what they're talking about. It's _you_ who don't.

>--
>       hang gliding mailing list: hang-gliding-request@virginia.edu 
>     Galen Hekhuis  UVa Health Sci Ctr (804)982-1646 gjh@virginia.edu
>  chinaware from China, indiaware from India, and underwear from down under
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