Organization: Penn State University
Date: Friday, 10 Apr 1992 05:23:08 EDT
From: <PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: If Against Turkey? Then is a lie!

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This Text was written by Andronicos Romanos.

PREFACE: Two weeks ago I wrote a small synopsis of Greek History to con-
         tribute in the discussions Greeks had in their networks, mainly
         about the  controversy  concerning the name  Macedonia (origin,
meaning, ancient Macedonians, from Alexander to the Byzantines, historic
developments, and the current events).
  Observing though, a dispute in soc.culture Turkish related to the mat-
ter of Armenia & Kurdistan, as well as repeated references to the Helle-
nes about: Greece,Cyprus and Western Thrace...I posted the condensed hi-
story there attempting to set things into perspective. For example, the-
re can be a broader picture to what some claim blaming Greece in Western
Thrace ignoring the other half:  ie a treaty with and a particular coun-
try braking word and international agreements  threatening  a defendless
Greek minority in the holy center of all Orthodoxs;the country in quest-
ion eventually leading the minority to extinction  without  any provoca-
tion or retaliation.  And yes, I'm referring to  Turkey and further more
there is no comparison: See the Free Elections in West Thrace (represen-
tatives in parliament for example) and the  barbaric behavior in 1955 at
east Thrace on the other hand!  So let this be perfectly clear.

WHAT HAPPENED:  Anyway, in the text I posted two weeks ago I started des-
                cribing -in the most condensed way possible-  the ancient
Minoans & classical Greece, the Alexandrian Era, the Roman Period and the
Byzantine Empire. Then,I followed the Hellenes through history: under the
rule of the Ottomans, the straggle for independence in Greece and Cyprus,
the Balkan & World wars, and finally from the exchange of populations...
to modern Greece and the EEC, and... and this is pretty much it.
  Unfortunately, and despite the numerous positive remarks I received the
very next day in my mail for the "opus", some parts of the text irritated
a fellow netter. I will attempt to answer in the most objective way I can
as I also tried with my History.

A DISPUTE:  Ahmet Parlakbilek (Univ.Toronto)  got offended with the first
            paragraph of my Part II followind the Ottoman conquest of the
Byzantine Empire. I'll include the controversial paragraph & his remarks.

  Andro: From now on,our story of the Hellenes will be largely associated
         with this newcomers:the Turks. In the wake of conquest the rela-
         tions of the two nations started with in worst possible way: The
         Greeks, as the other conquered people of the  Balkans, Caucasia,
         Mesopotamia, Arabia, Egypt...suffered similar deportations, exe-
         cutions, oppression policies  much similar to the famous Armeni-
         an genocide, as well as the so called  "tax of blood"   (a cruel
         turkification policy of the  Ottomans  that  consisted of taking
         the 1 to 2 youngs of  every family and putting them in  military
         schools, transforming (brainwashing) them to: "genitzari"-muslim
         troops used to suppress the Serbs, Bulgarians, and of course the
         Greeks...).

  Ahmet:Thanks for supplying us this garbage as a metrics to show how the
        Greeks perceive the history.I have no time to deal with your well
        known biases, but let me make a few points.
        Everything  in the above paragraph is distorted,  but most can be
        found in some anti-Turkish books..  The new and ridiculuous part,
        however is the "blood tax".  There was nothing called "blood tax"
        in the Ottoman Empire,everything was based on religion,not race..
        There was a tax to non-Muslims,  not to non-Turks...  Most of the
        wifes of the Ottoman Sultans were  Greeks and non-Turks converted
        to Islam; if there was a "blood business", do you think that they
        would marry a Greek?
        The Ottomans never took  "the 1 to 2 youngs of every family",  if
        you had the chance to read some  unbiased sources,  you would see
        that those kids were the ones without parents and they were rais-
        ed by the state.
        Ottomans  were not angels, but they were not definitely the  evil
        you present. However,thanks for presenting them as such evils, as
        nobody having some common-sense believes in such distortion.
        Actually, I like such articles..They make my point that the Greek
        education system is the  cause  of all this distortion of history
        and the hatred against Turks among the Greek people.   We read so
        many of these articles that there is no doubt that it is a probl-
        em of Greek education in general,  not a problem of Greek indivi-
        duals.   Interested people  are advised to read the  articles and
        books of Herkul Millas.
        BTW,  your idea of  acceptance this  garbage as basis of  history
        discussions,was a pure joke, right? Funny guy,I can only pity you
        and alike...

  Andro: I know that most of my Turkish friends are much kinder than you.
         and such an attitude dosn't reflect your compatriots. I take it
         that you tried to insult me with these:  "garbage", "funny guy",
         "I can only pity you and alike".  All I will say is that it is a
         matter of self respect.  I will not imitate you for it is not in
         my character,but I will answer to your comments sentence by sen-
         tence:
         --> Yes, bay Parlakbilek: The Ottomans were no angels as you ob-
             served  but it appears to me that you  can not  believe that
             THEY COULD EVER ACTED as I described! Actually, you say:
             "...but they were not definitely the  evil  you presented".
             Remember,it is YOU that said that only evil people could ha-
             ve acted such. Brace yourself then for a SURPRISE.
         --> I understand that you INFER that I am a product of the Greek
             education system...but you can not possibly know me. Anyway!
             You say that the Greek system  distorts  history in order to
             make Greeks hate Turks. Let me say a three or four things:
             1) I do not use Greek sources and I try to be  more unbiased
                than you can imagine or BE.
             2) Further more I am serious, I check my sources, never talk
                on top of my head.It appears to me that someone else DOES
                NOT. If you wanted information for something that is "new
                and ridiculous" for you (as you confessed),ask my friend!
                In addition to this:Please,be more careful in your expre-
                ssions next time to whomever you contact in the networks.
             3) My Synopsis had no element of  hatred towards Turks.  How
                could it? I never implied that you or any of my Turk fri-
                ends here are responsible for  acts of people generations
                back. Actually,this the last thing you or anybody else is
                responsible for: You weren't even born for goodness sake!
                So, let us put aside this ridiculous things about "educa-
                tion promoting hating Turks". If Turks are hated in seve-
                ral parts of the globe (personally I think this is a mis-
                take), this is probably a result of several of their com-
                patriots in ,say, Armenia,Cyprus,Kurdistan,Greece,E.Thra-
                ce. Think of it.
             4) If you were  careful you  should  have noticed that in my
                Synoptic History I said nothing about a "blood business".
                I was very specific on what this policy consisted of...
                Period.

         I know I wrote "Genitzari". It may by partially my fault you did
         not recognize the word "Janissaries" or "Yenicheri" (new troops)
         I think, in turkish.
         Never-the-less,You say that the Ottomans never took 1-2 kid from
         the families as I wrote. Let as see:

         The American scholar A.H.Lybyer writes in his "The Government of
         the Ottoman Empire in the  Time of  Suleiman the Magnificent" in
         pp36: "...Grandly disregarding the fabric of fundamental customs
         which is called "human nature",and those religious & social pre-
         judices which are thought to be almost as deep as lifeitself,the
         Ottoman system TOOK CHILDREN (capital letters are mine) bold for
         ever from  parents, discouraged  family  cares among its members
         through their most active years,allowed them NO CERTAIN HOLD up-
         on property,  gave them NO definite promise,  raised and lowered
         them with no regard for ancestry or previous distinction, taught
         them a strange law,ethics and religion, and ever kept them cons-
         cious of a SWORD RAISED ABOVE THEIR HEADS which might put an end
         at any  moment  to a brilliant career along  a matchless path of
         human glory..."

        A.J.Toynbee USES and actually ADDS to THIS extract in his "Study
        of History" (which was issued under the auspises of the Royal In-
        stitute of International Affairs  and later by the Oxford Univer-
        sity Press, Inc in some 11 editions in USA from 1946 until 1951..
        only): pp575 "The Osmanlis so...solved their problem by treating
        their new subjects as human flocks and herbs..."

        R.H.Davison  (professor of history in G.Washington University) is
        more descriptive:  "...a system of levying a tribute of boys from
        Christian subjects was organized. This may have started under Mu-
        rad I, though the origin is not clear;under Murad II the conscri-
        pting system known as devshirme (collecting) seems to have become
        institutionalized.  About EVERY FIVE YEARS boys in their teens or
        younger were TAKEN from Christian families,screened,TESTED,train-
        ed in various schools, and then ENROLLED in the Janissary corps..
        Though it is often stated that the  levy  applied  only to Balkan
        Christians  -and certainly the bulk were Balkan Greeks,Slavs, or
        Albanians- it is now clear that the levy was also applied to Ana-
        tolia at least from the mid-fifteenth century.  Janissaries were
        required to remain unmarried, though in Suleyman's time this rule
        was broken.  They constituted a very effective fighting force and
        were feared by opponents of the Ottomans;in battles they were of-
        ten held in reserve until the crucial moment..." From his book:
        "Turkey" (Prentice-Hall 1968, Inc pp 39-40)

         You say you didn't know this. I don't want to say that it could
probably reflect something about the DEPTH of the education you had on
this particular subject. I will not even suggest anything about a whole
educational system AS YOU DID some paragraphs above...And in no occasion
do I connect it with the recent survey among Turkish MP's.
  Having made my point anyway, I will say this much Ahmet (going back to
your second paragraph):  Not knowing something (Ignorance)  doesn't mean
that something didn't take place,no matter how cruel and unbelievable is.
The one who knows it and the historians who confess on it are not distor-
ting history.Nor should you be surprised  that some conceal it from a na-
tion's younger generation.
  And last but not least...As far as I like your enthusiasm and loyalty;
please: Don't insult others simply because the carry a Greek name. It is
not polite but too annoying! Couldn't I flood you with ironies bitter as
I was from  your comments?   No one has the right to insult... even if he
ignores something (which was the case in this occasion). I hope next time
we discuss matters in a calmer way. Then you will realize that we have in
common more than you can imagine. Please, Be argumentative,don't provoke.

Nice hearing from you and I hope I was constructive. No offense...
                                                      Andronikos Romanos