HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Who Killed Sf???
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:18:55 -0600

 >>>And I don't fault the chain stores for being mainly profit machines.

 >>I do, because they're the folks making it tough for the independent stores
 >>to survive. Of course, it's the readers who are in the chain stores buying
 >>TSR books and Conan instead of in the real bookstores buying decent books,
 >>but that's clearly not the reader's fault...

 SW>    Huh? Then just WHOSE is it? Do these "mighty chain stores" reach out
 SW> and drag in the reader, rip his wallet out of his pocket, and tie him to
 SW> a chair and make him read Conan?

 SW>    No. The readers make their own choices. Don't go trying to find
 SW> some kind of external demon to blame for the fact that other people have
 SW> different tastes -- ones that YOU don't happen to agree with.

Well; yes and no.  While in theory you can get chain bookstores to
special-order books they don't actually have in stock, it's very rare
for people to do so.  There appears to be a relatively high
psychological barrier in place.  So customers shopping the chain
bookstores are largely choosing from the books placed on the shelves
in the chains, rather than from the full set of what's published.
It's not crazy, therefore, to blame the chains for the selections
they're making.

Also, I'm *remarkably* lucky in that two good SF bookstores and a
good mystery bookstore are within 5 miles of where I live.  *VERY*
few people have such easy access to specialty stores.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Dilvish: Zelazny's other Fantasy
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:13:30 GMT

qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup):
>I am getting curious. Could somebody please tell me where I can find
>these stories? Are they novels or short stories?

"Dilvish, the Damned" and "The Changing Land", two of Zelazny's
lesser efforts, both books out of print (I think) but not hard to find.
From: rod@cats.ucsc.edu (Rodrick Su)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Simmons' Shrike (spoilers)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 01:19:10 GMT
Organization: Tigana Restoration Inc.
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <1993Jan6.151624.14300@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> (David Ingham) writes:
>
>For example:
>1: Why was the Kassad (sp? you know the military guy) so important anyway,
>he fought some battle but why did it need to be him?  The battle didn't
>seem important to the story.  

	The battle means almost everything.  The final battle of Kassad
	determines whether the human in the future will have the oppurtunity
	to assist Empathy.  As you note, Rachael II is most instrumental in
	bringing that about, and without Kassad, Rachael II will not be able
	to go back.

>2: What the heck were the time tombs anyway and why did they need to go
>backward in time?

	Envision the Time Tombs as a vessel from the future.  It carries the
	Shriek and the rest of the cargo including Rachael II backward in
	time for the Shriek to systematically inflict and broadcast pain
	to flush out Empathy.  

-- 
[ Rodrick Su           [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for    ]
[----------------------[ skydiving.                                          ]
[ rod@cats.ucsc.edu    ]------------------------[ ``Games of the Hangman''   ] 
[ rod@ucscb.ucsc.edu   ]------------------------[   Victor O'Reilly          ]
-- 
[ Rodrick Su           [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for    ]
[----------------------[ skydiving.                                          ]
[ rod@cats.ucsc.edu    ]------------------------[ ``Games of the Hangman''   ] 
[ rod@ucscb.ucsc.edu   ]------------------------[   Victor O'Reilly          ]
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: goudreau@batman.rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau)
Subject: Re: Review Of The Gripping Hand
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 20:55:16 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC

In article <1993Jan11.143926.29609@midway.uchicago.edu> dave@alex.uchicago.edu (Dave Griffith) writes:
>
> As a comparison, search for the earliest anti-slavery
> writings you can find, and then realize that slavery was in existence in the
> West (well Russia) until the 1890's, and exists in parts of the Third World
> even today.

Actually, the Tsar liberated the serfs in the early 1860s, a few
years before the 14th(?) Amendment to the U.S. constitution abolished
slavery here.  Perhaps you're thinking of Brazil, which didn't do
away with slavery until about 1888.

No quibble about the persistence of slavery today in places like
Sudan, though.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Goudreau			Data General Corporation
goudreau@dg-rtp.dg.com		62 Alexander Drive	
+1 919 248 6231			Research Triangle Park, NC  27709, USA
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Amber: )
Date: 12 Jan 93 01:09:20 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@unixd3.cis.pitt.edu

In article <1993Jan11.020753.9202@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> hunt@oils.ozy.dec.com (Peter Hunt) writes:
>In article <1inlrnINN5m6@menudo.uh.edu>, HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:

>|> In <1603@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu writes:
>|> > 	Parallels? Like, what? 

>	There are common elements, but I would agree that the differences are
>more significant than the similarities. The common elements reminded me of
>LotR, but the meat of the story and the nature of the characters 
>were completely different.
>	However, elements I thought were common were :
>	- the ring, obviously

	As I pointed out, though, the presence of a Ring wasn't unique to
Tolkien, and the NATURE of the rings was almost completely opposite. 
In fact, a closer parallel would be between the One Ring and the Illearth
Stone -- both were things of great power which corrupted their users...

	The White Gold ring could only be used by a person to whom it
was freely given (the One Ring, by anyone who grabbed it); the White
Gold had no effect on the user by itself (the One Ring corrupted);
The White Gold had no inherent useful powers, yet was instantly
recognizable, while the One was not instantly recognizable but had 
inherent powers that made it desirable by itself... and so on and so
forth.

>	- Bad guy living in a remote and difficult-to-access tower.

	Necessary for a Quest that he be remote. He'd hardly be living
in the middle of the town square. 
	Note also that Foul's Creche was not a tower, but an underground
complex with a single entrance (Guarded by the four-armed Thing).

>	- Orcs vs Ur-viles. Both are products of breeding programs by
>	  Foul/Sauron.

	True enough, though you couldn't get much different characteristics.
Some kind of special servants were necessary, and the Ur-Viles apparently
were capable of self-action against Foul (Vain). There was no indication
in the LotR or others that redemption was possible even for the progeny
of the Orcs.

>	- Giants vs. Ents. While their backgrounds and physical appearances
>	  are different, their personalities, and the roles they played, are
>	  very similar, IMHO.

	I'll actually give you this one -- I didn't notice it myself, but
it is pretty interesting as a parallel. However, the role that the Giants
played was so much larger, and their culture was actually quite different,
so I don't consider it more than, perhaps, a gentle nod to JRRT.

>WARNING : Needless pedantry follows ...
>	A volcano? In Thomas Covenent? Mount Thunder wasn't a volcano, was
>it? Okay, there was Hotash Slay, but that wasn't a volcano, exactly ...

	Mount Thunder most certainly WAS a volcano. Fire Lions and all
that -- just animated lava blobs. 


				Sea Wasp
From: Robert_Lynch@edtng.Kenosha.WI.US (Robert Lynch)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Distribution: world
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:48:46 CST
Organization: Electric Dreams: The Next Generation BBS

In a message dated Thu  8 Jan 93 20:30, Cstringe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (ch
wrote:

 C> williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) writes:
 C> | I go to book stores.  I go to the library, and only rarely do I find
 C> anything
 C> | worth buying and reading.  What is all this crap that clogs the
 C> shelves???
 C> | 
 C> | Here is my list of suspects:
 C> | 
 C> | All those nitwits who write endless fantasy series.
 C> | 
 C> | Star Trek Crap.  Enough already!  They've made a frigging
 C> | cult from a second rate space opera on TV.
 C> | 
 C> | Fantasy Body Snatchers.  Roger Zelazny and U K Leguin used
 C> | to write great books before they got into the fantasy dodge.  Wake
 C> up!
 C> | 
 C> | Assembly line writers.  Especially the journeymen who they
 C> | hire to produce more product in the style and universe of
 C> | a famous author.
 C> | 
 C> | Publishers who pay the big bucks for this crap.  How do they sleep
 C> at night?
 C> | 
 C> | L. Ron Hubbard.  Excuse me, Mr. Fat Boy Cult leader, but who asked
 C> you to
 C> | write Science Fiction again?  And isn't he DEAD??? WHY DO THEY KEEP
 C> PRINTING
 C> | BOOKS???
 C> | 
 C> | All of the Unicorn and fake medievalist readers who have an
 C> insatiable appetite
 C> | for the STOOPIDIST POSSIBLE Trash.
 C> | 
 C> | It is sad.  I can actually remember being able to WAIT IN
 C> ANTICIPATION FOR THE
 C> | NEXT Philip K Dick to come out.  Can any claim now to be waiting for
 C> anything
 C> | that momentous?
 C> | --
 C> | Kent Williams -- williams@cs.uiowa.edu Work(335-4496) Home(338-6053)
 C> | "You, Varlet! Why so blithe?" -- from "Shreck" by William Steig 


 C> AMEN, BROTHER! But don't blame it on fantasy. Fantasy has an even
 C> higher crap/gold ratio of schlock writers.


One thing that I've noticed is that trends like that are showing up in more
than just SF and fantasy. Many contemporary authors are caught up in the
pursuit of wealth, quality be damned. They often will just throw together a
rudimentary plot add padding and collect checks.

Quality is dropping in all areas of entertainment. Television is becoming
tabloid, sports all hype, and on and on and on.....................

-- Via DLG Pro v0.992

Robert_Lynch@EDTNG.Kenosha.WI.US
      ___         ___   ___  ___ ____       ___
     /__/ /     /|__/  /__  /  /  /  /\  / / _
    /  \ /___  /__    /__  /__/  /  /  \/ /__/
  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rcrowley@donne.zso.dec.com (Rebecca Crowley)
Subject: Re: Anarchy in S.F.
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 19:09:27 GMT

Eric Oppen (cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:

: In a previous article, dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) says:

: >I haven't really been following this thread, so these might've been
: >mentioned already:
: >
: >  _Peace War_ and _Marooned in Real Time_ by Vernor Vinge
: >
: >Neither one is about anarchy directly, but I think the idea of
: >anarchy plays an important role in both stories...

: The story that comes between them, "The Ungoverned", (found in _True Names
: and Other Dangers_) deals with it more directly.

I mentioned these three early on in the thread, and someone else commented
that they were more libertarian utopias than anarchy.

I don't know.  I'd hate to try to make that sort of distinction.  The 
(non)system described in "The Ungoverned" is described in some detail in
David Friedman's _Machinery of Freedom_, as anarchocapitalism.  Yes, there
are organizations that handle what we typically think of as the responsibility
of a government.  What's missing is the aspect of coercion (well, that's
the claim, anyway) inherent in a government.  The two novels deal with
these ideas to a lesser degree.  _The Peace War_ specifically deals 
the transition from an authoritarian (but minimalist) government to what
will eventually be described in "The Ungoverned".  _Marooned in Real Time_ is
a good deal further in the future.  Since all of the interesting property in
that novel is owned by two of the characters, what they say pretty much goes
*but* everyone has the option to leave (ha!) so. . .one could argue it's
still the same non-system as the short story.

Certainly this is a very neat, organized version of anarchy.  Yes, it could 
be described as a libertarian utopia.  But it's much closer to anarcy
(especially the short story) than, for example, any of L. Neil Smith's stuff,
which has also been mentioned in this thread.

--
Rebecca Crowley	 --  spreading memes in .sigs  --  Standard Disclaimers Apply	
	    Safety or self-determination.  Choose one.  NOW.
	rcrowley@zso.dec.com	selene@blegga.cac.washington.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Women in Starship Troopers
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:37:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.154548.1609@nwnexus.WA.COM> pyotr@halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) writes:
>
>What seems to be overlooked is that Rico wound up in the MI because
>he wasn't qualified for anything else - not even the K9 corp!

That's one way to look at it. Another is that he was perfect for the
MI, so that overrode his personal preferences; or that MI was much
more in demand than the other branches, which (again) overrode his
preferences. The latter makes sense, since the war (uhm, "State of
Emergency") was heating up just when Rico joined up, and a lot of
ground troops were being lost. And as for the former: damn few
recruits ever make it through a drop, let alone make officer. Perhaps
the recruiters could tell that Rico might be one of the few.

And "not even the K9 corps" is a strange way to put it. It sounds like
only a very few people are suited for the K9 corps; I expect they were
even more in demand than the MI. (Which is probably why the
interviewer asked Rico the questions about Rico's dog, even though
Rico was (by hypothesis) perfect for the MI.)
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy)
Subject: Re: Stationery & diaries (was 1992 in Review)
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:41:03 GMT

I wrote:
 
> I only use ink of a easy flowing light weight
> (Waterman is excellent, but there are others which will do)

Luke Wagner asks:
>Which others would you recommend?  I had always thought the choices
>were 1) something which runs when it rains, 2) something which 
>will clog your pen often, and 3) nasty-smelling Waterman.  Now you
>hint that there are others.  Brand names?  How do they smell?

Waterman is my favourite for cartridge pens.  If the ink doesn't
run when it rains, you don't want it in your expensive fountain
pen.  This also means that the blacks aren't true blacks, though
Waterman and Mont Blanc are quite decent.

Mont Blanc and Pelikan are the other inks I'd put in my pen, and
I like Mont Blanc better than Pelikan.  I would never put Quink
(or whatever it's called) or Shaeffer ink in it.  

All the above inks come in bottles.  I've also seen Caran D'Ache
cartridges (I'd use those, but their colours seem a little
muddier to me).  For colours, I like Waterman the best (although
I don't use inks other than black very often anymore):  blue, sky
blue, green, brown, and a beautiful violet.  The red is more
orange than I like, but that's true of all the brands I've
mentioned.

As for the smell, I couldn't tell you.  I never noticed.

-desiree
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: naam@cecer.army.mil (Ramez Naam)
Subject: Re: Dan Simmons - Hyperion
Organization: US Army Corps of Engineers Construction Engineering Research Labs
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:35:53 GMT


If you're going to read a David Brin book, I'd read Earth.
As far as Dan Simmons goes, Hyperion is clearly his best book
to date, and also the only real SF he's written.  Carrion
Comfort, IMHO, is his next best book.  A very brief description
of all of the Simmons I've read follows:

Hyperion, Fall of Hyperion
	Hard, epic science fiction.  Truly staggering in the quality
	of both the prose and the plot. The best book I've read in
	the last 3 years.

Carrion Comfort
	A little horror, a lot of plot.  A great, thick, delicious
	read, if you don't mind exposure to truly disturbing
	characters.

Phases of Gravity
	A contemporary novel about one man's search for self-discovery.
	I liked it a lot, but it takes more than 1 read to really
	feel like you understand it.

Song of Kali
	Winner of the world fantasy award, but it's not a fantasy novel.
	I wouldn't really call it a horror novel either.  Primarily,
	it's a novel about Calcutta.

Summer of Night
	Glorious nostalgic horror, centerred around pre-teen heroes.
	This one gave me nightmares.  The only real horror story
	he's written.

Prayers to Broken Stones
	A collection of short stories of mixed genre.  All are good.
	Unfortunately, about 1/3 are exerpts from his novels.  One
	of the stories seems to be autobiographical, btw.

The Hollow Man
	His newest book.  In a lot of ways, I feel like this is the
	book that Phases of Gravity should have been.  It explores not
	only the human condition, but contemporary physics and the
	meaning of existance, as well.  I hightly recomend it.

--
Ramez Naam
naam@terra.cecer.army.mil
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Xenocide Sequel?
From: jvessey@husc11.harvard.edu (Jonathan Vessey)
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:20:31 GMT

On a somewhat related note (and without wanting to spoil the plot for those
who haven't read it, so I won't go into details): was anyone else out there
somewhat disappointed by the ending of Xenocide? I really loved the first
two books in the series and was waiting with baited breath for the third
one. It was okay, but other than the fact that it concentrated too much
(in my opinion) on the story of the girl (argh-can't remember her name),
it seemed like a massive case of deus ex machina where OSC realized that
there was no way out of the situation he'd written everyone into and just
invented an easy way out. Admittedly, it was a really sticky situation,
but I still thought he kind of wimped out rather than actually developing
a logical or believable solution to the problems.

Jon
:wq


A
A `


-- 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
Jon Vessey -- jvessey@husc.harvard.edu
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:17535 rec.arts.sf.science:4097 sci.physics:22608 sci.skeptic:22361
From: sichase@csa2.lbl.gov (SCOTT I CHASE)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Davis Mechanics (was Re: John Woods Campbell)
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:22:00 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.197
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan12.100200.14250@syma.sussex.ac.uk>, jasonr@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Jason F Ralph) writes...
>I really DO hate to spoil the party, but if you want to argue the toss
>about black holes I thought that you might like to know that according
>to Einstein's Theory of General Relativity... they don't exist. (Or,

Matt Austern already addressed this part, so I'll just skip it.

>theories, but it's not possible yet! All this talk about matter in black
>holes is complete tosh... we have no idea what happens when you compress
>things beyond the nucleic limit. In any case, if you believe QFT's a

I don't know why you say that.  We have plenty of experience squeezing
nuclear matter to well more than an order of magnitude higher density
than normal nuclear density.  Nothing special happens, necessarily - 
it's an open question whether you can create circumstances under which
such compression will lead to quark-gluon plasma formation.

>quark-electron 'blob' (NOT necessarily a black hole) is still not
>incompressible since the speed of 'signal' propagation is still given by
>the speed of light... Assuming that the gauge symmetry has been broken,
>then only the photon and graviton are massless, the weak bosons and the
>gluons have mass => 'signal' propagates slower than the speed of
>light... The dominate 'signal' may still be given by the colour force
>since this the strongest interaction, but this is still limited by 'c'.

True, but irrelevant.  Whether or not signals travel at c inside the 
hole is immaterial, and not at all clear to me anyway.  Black holes are 
strange objects.  In any event, this does not preclude a small object, 
like a nucleus, from being squeezed so tightly that it becomes a 
microscopic black hole - for the short time before it evaporates.  Many
such micro black holes are believed to have been formed in the Big Bang.

-Scott
--------------------
Scott I. Chase			"It is not a simple life to be a single cell,
SICHASE@CSA2.LBL.GOV		 although I have no right to say so, having
				 been a single cell so long ago myself that I 
				 have no memory at all of that stage of my 
				 life." - Lewis Thomas
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:44:08 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

From article <1ii93mINN8s9@agate.berkeley.edu>, by cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ():
> In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu> williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) writes:
>> .... What is all this crap that clogs the shelves???
> [prolonged cry of anguish deleted]
> 
> Whereat various other people posted remarks summarizing to:
> 
> (a)  But This and That and The Other Work is fantasy and it's *GOOD*!
> 
> (b)  Publishers are in business to make money: they sell what people will
>      buy.
> 
> In regards to (b), it is only too true: they sell what will sell.  But
> keep in mind also the recent thread on a similar topic which boiled down
> to People buy what they like: one reader's dreck is another's Real Neat
> Stuff.
> 
> In regards to (a), I have a question for Mr. Williams.  Is there any fantasy,
> recent or antique, that you do like?  Do you like any fantasy at all?
> 
> (I only ask because I want to know.)
> 

I read Tolkein when I was a kid, but I'm not sure I could sit through it
again. I read Mallory's Mort D'Arthur in college.  I'd guess the only book
called fantasy I would willingly read again would be "The Dreamquest of
Unknown Kadath" by H.P. Lovecraft.

I just don't see what sword fights and wizards has to do with anything.  I
like Dan Simmons, John Shirley, Bruce Sterling, Sherri Tepper, Wm. Gibbons,
Terry Bisson, GE Effinger, etc; the problem I see is that when it comes
to shelf space and publisher attention and library acquisitions, the stupid
fantasy stuff drives out the good SF.


--
Kent Williams -- williams@cs.uiowa.edu Work(335-4496) Home(338-6053)
"You, Varlet! Why so blithe?" -- from "Shreck" by William Steig


Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:17333 alt.config:8359
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Crow's Friend Timmy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.config
Subject: Re: Start alt.fantasy-- was Who killed SF?
Date: 10 Jan 93 00:31:42 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Next Thursday A.D.

morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Elmo the Stunt Elk) writes:

>	Nope.  Alvin Maker is alternate history, and that's solidly SF.  So
>there's magic involved?  BFD.  It's more SF than fantasy IMHO.

IMHO, what you HO is pretty silly. Magic is magic. Alternate history is
alternate history, and that doesn't make it SF or Fantasy as a genre, even
if alternate history is considered SF in terms of marketing category. So is
Fantasy.

-- 
            Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX)
                      Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms
                chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ 

          I'm history! No! I'm mythology! Whatever, I'm outta here!