From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: Re: Observations
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:46:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.145448.26265@advtech.uswest.com> stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.202750.18927@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep1.165853.11816@advtech.uswest.com> stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug31.211903.25718@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.ibm.com writes:
>>>My beliefs are just as valid as yours, so if you tell me what I 'should'
>>>do, then I take it I have the right to tell you what YOU should do.
>>
>>The difference might be that while we can all believe what everyone "should" and
>>"shouldn't" do, we are not all out trying to make laws to force people to 
>>do the things we think they should be doing.
>
>The pro abortion camp IS trying to make laws to force people to do the things
>they think we should be doing.

What are they forcing?

>And no, this law will not force women to get abortions, but it WILL further
>reduce the probability that fathers will EVER have any rights in regards to
>their unborn children.

That's probably true. If you want to have rights over children being born,
help fund medical research to allow the implantation of a uterus in males.

Until then, relax and accept your biological bind.


>>There is a group of pro-life folks who *are* trying to make laws to force
>>people to do what *they* think is right for them.
>
>I've already stated, repeatedly (four times now, to be precise) that
>I support the idea of legal abortion, but I do NOT support abortion as
>a unilateral choice.  It is a choice that should only be made by the
>couple.

So it is bad to have the *state* to mandate abortion, but it's ok for
a husband to mandate abortion rights if he feels like it?

Am I missing something?

>I simply support making abortion illegal, because it is the most politically
>expedient way of making the rights of men and women equal.
 ^^^^^^^^
You have a different definition of expedient than I do.

Also, men and women are not purely equal. You *seem* to be working for 
equality in an area that equality cannot exist in because of intrinsic
biological differences.


>As an ex-feminist, I am VERY supportive of the idea of equal rights,
>regardless of sex.

Well, I'm sorry, but there are some things we will never be equal in 
because of intrinsic differences. No amount of lobbying is going to change
that, it's only going to  make folks like you more frustrated.


>>I support your right to CHOOSE what you want to do with yourself. That is
>>why I'm pro-choice.  If you want to smoke cigarettes, torture yourself,
>>shoot heroin, smoke dope, drink till you puke, masturbate, or kill your-
>>self, more power to you.
>
>Thanks, awfully.  But your support for my right to CHOOSE does not change
>the fact that the government has passed and enforces many laws that make
>such actions as killing myself, smoking dope or shooting up heroin
>illegal.

I think the fact that they've done that is absurd. The fact that they've
done that is also somewhat pointless judging by the amount of heroin
and pot use and the amount of suicide.


>>That is *your* choice.  While I may not agree with
>>what you are doing with your body, it is about all you really have and I'm
>>not going to try to force you to do one thing or another with it.
>
>Of course, the difference between getting really drunk every night, or
>getting really drunk and driving is whether or not I involve other
>people.

Yes. Early abortions do not harm anyone else. I know you might say that
because *you* wanted the child, it harms you, but that is the sad fact
of biology I'm recommending you simply accept. You are a prisoner in your
body and cannot hope to change your control over who gives birth, your or
your SO.  Until you can do that, you'll have to hope she's a nice person
and/or wants to have the baby. Having a baby can be considered (at least
at times) as a *favor* your SO does for you. I have even heard meN
literally thank their SOs for putting in so much work, being so commited
and going through so much pain for them to be able to have a child.
Think of it that way for a while.

>Abortion by definition is NOT a personal choice. 

I hope to help it remain a personal choice. I'm sorry if it leads to 
fisticuffs with you.


> It involves a minimum of
>two people (father and mother) and depending on your belief system,
>one or more babies.

Yes, two to start, one to finish.

Is starting a pregnancy so hard for you that you can't just go find another
SO and see if *she* won't have your baby?


>>The pro-life folks, on the other hand, will.
>
>Yup.  And I will support them unless I can be convinced that an equally
>just arrangement can be worked out that leaves abortion legal.

You have an odd definition of 'just'.

-- 
David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
Perpetual Student                                   knapp@spot.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: talk.abortion