HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Real cultural differences
Date: 30 Jul 92 18:47:36 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: SCA

Greetings all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn

In the interests of convincing people that at least part of
what is going on here is cultural.  Look at what Stephen
just posted:

>Alexander, I sincerely wish you had posted this same message back
>when Bertram first initiated the attack.  It is, I think, too late
>now.  When I read the post saying "Shove it up your mule" I decided
>that I had turned the other cheek too many times already.

Please compare with my husband, saying that if you say this in
Ansteorra, you have a _fight_ on your hands.  Well, folks: the
"criticism" from the coastal types having passed the Ansteorran 
culture's line, we now have a fight.  At _least_ as much the fault
of the coastal types as it could conceivably be Stephen's.  Those
who have attacked _him_ for discourtesy have been rude themselves,
and that just isn't constructive by any set of rules.  It would
have been useful if people had tried to anticipate _his_ reaction.
Maybe this will be training for next time....

Can we try to see the differences instead, from now on, and avoid
this?  Nobody enjoys it.....

Best wishes,

Angharad
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Translating Names
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:48:28 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  

Charles Student of Glaedenfeld (choosing bynames is easy :) wrote:

> I think both options were used in period.  "FitzWilliam," for instance
> survived in the Norman. 

I think you may be confused, Charles.  FitzWilliam was originally a Norman
name.  "Fitz" is an Anglo-Norman word for "son", and "William" is the
English form of the Franco-Norman "Guilliam".  The only reason that
"FitzWilliam" is found in Ireland is because the Anglo-Normans brought it
there!

> In general, however, I expect that the name would be translated if it
> were seen as a nickname, but not if it were viewed as a surname.

This is not a meaningful distinction for most of our period.  Surnames
(which are normally construed as continually inherited family names) did
not arise in England until the 14th century, later in most other countries.

> If John Baker moves to another country, he will translate his name, if
> he is a Baker, but he will probably not translate it if he is a merchant.

An interesting speculation, but I doubt that the evidence would support
such a broad generalization.  For example, consider that even in the early
20th century, when inherited surnames are found almost everywhere, an awful
lot of immigrants to the US translated their surnames to English.

Unfortunately, there are few available studies of the history of surnames
which are sufficiently detailed to answer this kind of question.  I have a
few books on English names and one on Scottish names which are good enough,
and I know of a couple on German names.  English might be a very good place
to start, since there is a great deal of inter-mixture of languages (Welsh,
Irish, Gaelic, English, French, Latin).  My research suggests that Cariadoc
is correct: It was standard to translate one's name as appropriate to the
circumstances.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:06:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712567015.F00002

SW>  From: Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis)
SW>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
SW>
SW>  >Given the amount of blunt speech on the Rialto, I hope that people
SW>  >can see why only this _particular_ post garnered my criticism.

SW>  >is flip and lacks specificity.  Does anyone else care to offer
SW>  >_their_ definition of "cheap shot," to add to the debate?

SW>  I think putting words in anothers mouth, [etc.]

Paraphrasing an arguement is not the same as putting words in someone's 
mouth. And I think almost everyone here knows that except, evidently, you.

SW>  I think instigating a flame war qualifies as a cheap shot.

If you think this is a "flamewar" you have lead a very sheltered life, so 
far.

I will add that your basic non-understanding of courtesy becomes evident 
with the last series of diatribes, in which you blame *each* of us for 
everything said by *all* of us. I am an individual sir... I am an individual 
who thinks you took a cheap shot at Christian (and have now taken one or two 
at me, by blaming me for the remarks of others, the very thing you object to 
when done to yourself). I am *not* an individual who ever told anyone here 
to shove anything anywhere, nor that anything "sucks".

Now if you want a good demonstration of real flaming, I suggest you meet me 
in email, at my unix address, where I will gladly oblige you.

What I said about you here was well within the parameters of what your 
friend was defending as good, plain-speaking rhetoric. Note how much it hurt 
*your* feelings once it was *your* ox being gored. Think on that once you 
cool down.

Or if you want war, write email to: trifid@agora.rain.com

Moreach NicMaolain
(Caveat, this woman has actually gone after a mundane bear with a stick.) 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.music.folk
From: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith)
Subject: Scotland's Depraved
Originator: irilyth@fenris
Organization: HMC Academic Computing Services
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 20:57:59 GMT

I'm looking for the words to a parody of Scotland the Brave, and a friend
suggested these two groups as likely sources. I have the first verse; my
friend writes:

     Bring out the whiskey, mother,
     I'm feeling frisky, mother;
     Bring out the sheep, I'm so lonely tonight!
     Bring out my little brother--
     I'll have no other lover--
     England's forever, but Scotland's depraved.

     I'm told rec.arts.sca or alt.sca or whatever would have
     the complete 15 verses or so...

E-mail is probably best to save bandwidth; I'll post a summary if I get any
responses. Thanks in advance for any help...
-- 
original text by Josh Smith    ::   Comments, questions, etc. welcomed
irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu   ::   #include <std.disclaimer>
"If you ever fall off the Sears Tower, just go real limp, because maybe you'll
look like a dummy and people will try to catch you because, hey, free dummy."
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Once upon a Weekend" demo tape
Date: 28 Jul 92 00:09:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1992Jul27.192541.544@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:

>I don't dance, can't do lace, can't carry a tune in a bucket [...]
	        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	this can be fixed my lord, really if you do 16th century ...

	I can be found in Enchanted Ground, and I'll try to have a couple of
beginners kits to unload :)

						-Ilaine


-- 
Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's EZ-Pregnancy Test 
Ilaine de Cameron  | ... "Now take the skein of handspun yarn out of the 
                   | dyebath. If it is green, you are with child, if it
ilaine@panix.com   | is blue, you are not."
From: kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu (David Kuijt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Photos and events
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:12:55 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

Dafydd ap Gwystl greets the Rialto.

Frydherik Eysenkopf writes regarding videotapes of Crown Tournaments:

>A couple of Crown Tourneys ago I was around for a discussion among
>some, shall we say, upper-end fighters, they were commenting on how
>clean the fights were compared to past Crowns. And someone said
>something like,"Yeah, well it's hard to get people to believe you're
>not a numb bastard when there are videotapes from several directions
>that say otherwise. I think Sir Wontakeablow has seen just how bad he
>looked the last couple of Crowns, because he sure has cleaned 
>up his act."

I would like to strongly caution people against hasty judgement
of fights on videotape.  Note the dissension in the NFL about
instant-replay and referee's calls.  It is true that video may
capture and immortalize a flagrant miscall of a blow.  It is
also possible that the limitations of the medium will make a
blow apparently be a flagrant miscall when in fact nothing of
the sort occurs.  I have seen many of my fights in Crowns on
tape, and I have seen cases where my opponent seemed to be
ignoring a good blow when I know for certain that I had not hit
him.  As Duke Gyrth once said, the fighter who received the blow
has the best chance of judging it correctly; his opponent can
judge only half as well, the marshals only half again, and an
educated spectator only half as well as the marshal.  I would add
to that a spectator watching the videotape can only judge blows
half as well as a spectator at the fight.

In one Crown tourney bout I was fighting an opponent who hit me in
the leg.  I went down to my knees and my opponent moved away and
took a bit of a breather.  In this hiatus the marshal came up and
questioned me about the blow, saying that it was clearly low, and
that he had a good view of it.  I replied that I had no idea how
the blow looked, and did not really care, because the sting of
the impact was more than 1" above the knee, so I was going to take
it.  The marshal was only six feet from me when I was hit, so
he probably had a very good view, much better than any video.
If the blow looked low to him, it would have looked low to any
video.  My point is simply this--video is not live, nor infallible.
There is a tendency to give total faith to video: "but I can see it!"
Video can be deceptive.



	Dafydd ap Gwystl			David Kuijt
	Barony of Storvik			kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu
	Kingdom of Atlantia			(MD,DC,VA,NC,SC)
From: 00rkspicher@bsu-ucs.uucp (Randall Spicher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Rapier combat illegal?
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:08:38 GMT

In article <5288@naucse.cse.nau.edu>, wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson) writes:
> 
> is:  Is rapier combat really a duel since no one is to be hurt or
> killed?  If a fighting with swords is illegal, then all the fencers
> should be tossed in jail...

"Fencing" is *not* dueling, since it is not the intention to hurt your
opponent.  It is a sport, in the same way that football is a sport. 
Even more than football is since fencing is an international sport 
(ever watch the Olympics?), and fewer injuries occur.  In a theatrical
context (Which is closer to what the SCA does) it might be considered  a 
"mock duel".

Cavalamar
Shire of Afonlyn
Middle Kingdom
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Rich Addison <Rich_Addison@med.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: SCA Rapier combat illegal?
Organization: U of Mich Organ Transplantation Center
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b2
     <ewright.711652082@convex.convex.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:25:02 GMT

Nicholas van Ledyen (Edward V. Wright), ewright@convex.com writes:
>>He has heard that this makes our SCA Fencing/Duelling/Rapier
>>combat illegal in the state.  I find this an interesting question.
>>Is it illegal?  Is fencing at all active in Lousiana?  How could
>>we convince the authorities that this is a nationally regulated
>>sport, and not a form of actual duelling?  Does mundane USFA
>>fencing take place in Louisiana?
>
>As I understand it (and I heard this from a paralegal who had
>researched the matter), Louisiana law does not make fencing
>illegal.  It does say that if you kill someone in a duel or
>fight, with any weapon, you can be charged with murder. 
>
>However, it seems that some of the powers that be in Meridies
>are very opposed to fencing and have glommed onto this as a
>convenient excuse to keep it out of their Kingdom even though
>the law itself does not distinguish between steel and rattan.  
>
>-- Nicholas van Ledyen

Just as an observation by one totally unschooled in law, but trained a
bit in logic:
The anti-dueling law could probably not be enforced if the weapons used
were blunted and/or tipped (like a fencing foil) so that one could not
likely be fatally injured.  This is of course my assumption about the
spirit of the law, without having read the letter of it.  It may depend
on a legal definition of lethal weapon in the jurisdiction in question.

-- Woefully mundane and seeking an Ann Arbor, MI  SCA contact:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rich Addison                   |        Do not meddle in
Programmer Analyst             |     the affairs of wizards,
U of M Organ Transplant Center |    for they are clever, and
Ann Arbor, MI                  | you would make a great doorknob.
From: PORTERG@ruby.vcu.EDU (Greg Porter)
Subject: Anti-SCA/wargaming attitudes (was Pentacles)
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:02:00 GMT

	Greetings to the Rialto:

	Concerning the post on certain material a Boise policeman had on file,
I've run into both the anti-SCA and anti-wargaming types.  Often, they are
one and the same (a person usually is 'anti' both). If I happen to get into a
conversation with such a person, I speak in a pleasant (I hope), neutral tone
and stress the educational aspects of the SCA (i.e. demos, historic recreation,
etc.).  I've gotten good results on occasion with this approach.  If the person
is totally negative, I end the discussion as tactfully as possible and mentally
write them off as one of those folks cursed with a closed mind.  Surprisingly,
I've found much more hostility towards wargaming than the SCA.  The best way
I've found to present wargaming is to call it 'participatory storytelling',
and stress the creative aspects of it.  The hostility seems directed at
fantasy roleplaying type games, not miniatures battles or board games.  
	One interesting observation that I've made is that those most
vehemently opposed to wargaming/SCA are those who follow fundamentalist-type 
religions, or any group that follows a strict set of guidelines, usually to
the exclusion of independant thought.  To open the mind of such a person is,
IMHO, a greater miracle than parting a large body of water or turning water 
to wine.  

	Fare well,

	Morgan Wolfsinger (Catherine DeMott) by my lord's net access
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Basic Courtesy
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:05:04

Alexander wrote...

>Gentles--
>
>We are all supposed to be Gentles here, right?
>
>I have for some time been referring to this thread, in my mind, as
>"the tempest-in-a-teapot thread."  It now appears to be time to
>issue a hurricane warning.  I'd like to suggest that we all, each
>and every one of us, drop it, right now, *before* it turns into
>the no-holds-barred flamefest it's shaping up to become.

Alexander, I sincerely wish you had posted this same message back
when Bertram first initiated the attack.  It is, I think, too late
now.  When I read the post saying "Shove it up your mule" I decided
that I had turned the other cheek too many times already.

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:04:35 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

I'd like to offer a calming word.  The point of this thread is not (or, at
least, should not be) that Pennsic is a particularly dangerous place.  The
point is that Pennsic is not a magical place where societies problems
disappear.  It is just like the rest of the world.  Just like anywhere
else, there is some crime.  Anyone who wants to come to Pennsic can come,
and it would be foolish to assume that we won't get a few people there to
reap the benefits of lax security.  

You don't have to get paranoid, but please take the normal precautions that
you would take in a large, friendly crowd, most of whom you don't know.

Normal.  That's the word to remember.  Normal.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mdunbar@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Michael Dunbar)
Subject: Re: Morris Dance info needed
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 23:38:31 GMT

Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) writes:

>Ioseph (grumpy about who-knows-what-now) wrote...

>>Gentles:
>>                                                                          
>>My lady wife, Mistress Cherie Ruadh MhicRath, recently got seriously      
>>interested in Morris Dancing after a 6 week session with Horn Dance,      
>>and now is helping to organize a troupe here in Phoenix.                  
>>                                                                          
>>However, she needs references, lesson materials, ANYTHING that is out     
>>there on the subject. If you have any info on where such can be obtained, 
>>please respond!                                                           

>I would also be interested in information about Morris dancing.
>Historical information, in paticular, since I have no knowledge of
>it's history.

>Stephen of the Grove
>Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
>___
> X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!


to all those interested gentiles in morris dancing, i would suggest
posting to alt.wicca ...they would be most able to answer a question
of this sort....;)

Mortiana
a.k.a. julie levitt
(using her fiance's account)
From: mfactor@taronga.com (Marco Landin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Summary: The Last Extripation of Kryst
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:41:37 GMT
Organization: Taronga Park BBS

In article <3151@creatures.cs.vt.edu>, jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
> Ah, the Middle Ages "not as they were, but as they should have been."  You
> know, the ones where Julian the Apostate extirpated Christianity and all
> the crowned heads of Europe were devout worshippers of the mother-goddess.
> _Those_ Middle Ages, the ones which have no basis in history...
	
	Heh.  Well, it *IS* after all, not compulsive authenticity.  :)
	
Sure, we have a lot of UNLESSness in our Society, the "If we could do it
over, what would we change" kind of thing.  Is that bad?  NOPE.
	
	In the Dark Ages, the Chiefs were Xtian while the serfs were still Pagan.
I like the new setup, where we is what we's want to be.  Makes sense.
-- 
      |                   |
       \0__,___   ___,__@/
        +  '         `  =
       / )             ( \
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kim@babbage.csus.edu (Kim Conway)
Subject: Arts and Sciences Tourney - West
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:22:04 GMT

I need to get information about this event coming up next week. Especially
directions. If anyone out there can help please e-mail me or post to the 
group. Thanks in advance.

Tara, The West
From: hwt@bwdlh490.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Advice for Pennsic
Keywords: Pennsic, Camping, linen
Date: 30 Jul 92 12:24:16 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <21JUL199223521600@pavo.concordia.ca>,
g_leach@pavo.concordia.ca (LEACH, GRAHAM) writes:
|>I have a question for all seasoned Pennsic campers (or campers in general,
|>for that matter ... :>  )

Every morning, we strip the bed.  Dry stuff goes into garbage bags. 
Clear bags are good, if you're prone to forgetting which is which. (The
outside garbage bag is in a burlap sack, BTW.)  Damp stuff gets aired,
weather permitting.  When dry, it goes into garbage bags.  We carry a
couple of mylar emergency blankets for hurricanes and the like. (Only
minor exageration, one Pennsic got the tail end of a hurricane.  Rain
about like a car wash!)  More spare dry stuff is locked in the automobile.  

We're looking to get a bed frame to get the air mattress off the ground
this year.
            
  Henry Troup - HWT@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
   "Nature abhors an atmosphere.  Check your suit.  Check your buddy's suit."
From: lindal@killer.asd.sgi.com (Linda Levy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:54:00 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Jul22.175921.9252@nas.nasa.gov>, kinsey@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano) writes:

|> 
|> At our local fighter practice, quite often the local campus police show
|> up and hang around for awhile talking to some of the fighters. Last night,
|> I believe the officer was there for at least two hours. And they are
|> quite friendly.

|> In Service,
|> Euriol of Lothian


Actually, the officer that was there for a good 4 hours was 
Sir Jay d'Argent (in his real job costume). But he has enabled
 us to continue using the college lawn for our practice by encouraging
 his fellow officers to stop by and talk to us, and being a good example 
of nice people who do crazy things on week-ends. We usually get 
warning from the officers BEFORE they ticket our cars, to give 
us time to rush over and buy parking permits.  We don't hassle 
them and they don't hassle us.

linda of the lakelands (west)
lindal@asd.sgi.com
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Once upon a Weekend" demo tape
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:29:36 GMT
Distribution: usa, world, na
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

Unto My Lord Graydon, doth Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus send his humble 
greetings,

My Lord,  surely thou shoulds't not behave in such a fashion in private that 
thou wouldst be ashamed to have a portrait of thy behavior made public.

Thou dids't speak of cuddling.  It is true that in my aging dotage I do oft
fancy, and occasionally indulge myself in, a Platonic cuddle with a comely
and gracious Lady of our Society.   But my Lord,  I ne'er do anything that
I would be loath to have my Good Wife see,   for she doth know that it
is but an aging man's fantasy and sop to my waning ego, and that there 
is no harm in it.  I'faith, oft times we do encourage each other in innocent
flirtations, for that in innocence glances there aregreat joy,  but in stealth
there is fear and harm to be found.

And thus for all of my actions...    I live my life as an open book, for then
I have no need of fear that a thief may espy me and hold me to ransom, or 
that I will be caught in a tangled web of deceit and be shown to be 
ungentlemanly.

And, My Lord,  thou dids't also speak that such portraiture might reveal
what quality dancer thou art.    My Lord,  those who love thee already,
love thee in spite of or because of thy abilities in dance.  Those who
know thee not, but who would fain know thee, should learn of thy
abilities and foibles so that they will know of thee and not of a painted
empty shell.   And those who know thee not and care not to know thee,
will probably not care a fig an thou can'st dance a galliard.

My Lord,  I cannot presume to advise thee on how thou shoulds't seek
thy conscience,  but an thou art willing to listen to one final gasp
from a near witless dotard, please then Good My Lord allow me to say that I
have found great joy in simplicity and plain truth for all the world to
examine.  I shall ne'er be a great plotter in a Byzantine court,  but I
shall be a happy fool in my little College in the great dry waste.

I fear that my gentle admonition shall rise thy ire, and for that I do 
most humbly apologize,  and remain,

thy humble and apologetic servant
Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus