HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: james@Bridge.COM (James Montebello)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: What is indy car about....
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:18:34 GMT
Organization: Bridge Information Systems

In article <1992Sep29.161418.25227@aa.cad.slb.com> wilson@mailhost.aa.cad.slb.com (David Wilson) writes:
>In article <1992Sep25.011932.13311@cs.rose-hulman.edu> sienerbc@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Brian C. Siener) writes:
>>
>>In article <1166@racerx.bridge.COM> james@Bridge.COM (James Montebello) writes:
>>> [stuff deleted] 
>>> IndyCars use methanol for performance reasons. The safety excuses are
>>> pure puffery.
>> [more stuff deleted]
>>as for gasoline, it is quite unsafe in the sport as opposed to
>>methanol.
>[even more deleted]
>As for the safety aspects, I'm still not clear on all the issues. It can be put
>out with water once it's lit, and can be diluted with water to avoid spills
>igniting in the first place.  Everyone seems to agree on those points.  As for
>the probability of catastrophes, how much credit for avoiding repeats of the
>Eddy Sachs incident should be given to methanol, and how much to fuel cells,
>dry-break fittings, etc.??

My point exactly. That CART (err, IndyCar, Inc.) fans still use the '64
Sachs crash to point out methanol's improved safety is silly. Fuel
cells, "crushable zones", dry-break fittings, fire suits, etc. all came
after this crash and all improved fuel safety enormously.

I would note that a number of chemistry types have pointed out to me
that methanol is safer to handle than gasoline (not only can it be put
out with water, but it doesn't form highly combustible vapors with air
as gas does), so I've backed off from my own (formerly rabid) opinion
against methanol.

That said, I still simply cannot consider gasoline to be dangerously
unsafe. Far too many racing organizations use it quite safely to say
otherwise.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
james montebello (james@bridge.com)         'my employer has no opinions'		
Experience: a comb life gives you after you lose your hair.
	- Judith Stern
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: dave@monitor.larc.nasa.gov (Dave A. Hinde)
Subject: Re: Martinsville SPOILER!!
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:43:25 GMT

My humble apologies for not including the words SPOILER with the subject line.
I was trying to post updates for those without radio/TV at work.

Here's the scoop at lap 464:
	Davey and Derrick Cope spin, Davey is out of brakes
	Kyle had just got his lap back.

The restart will line up:
	Geoff Bodine, Dick Trickle, Sterling Marlin, Rusty Wallace, Brett B.,
		Kyle (fastest on track), Alan K., then Davey.
	Davey bounces off wall on restart (testing his brakes ??)
	Geoff and Dick didn't change tires

                                      ___/,@___  Dave Hinde, Last Minute Racing
                                     /_o_____o_| dave@monitor.larc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: F1:Berger:Patrese
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:33:39 +0000

marti@nugget.inf.ethz.ch (Robert Marti) writes..

>But: Has it occurred to any of those who claim that Berger pulled
>that move intentionally that he could very well have been on the
>receiving end -- in that Patrese could have nudged him in such a way
>that Berger would have smashed into the pit wall with horrible
>consequences?!

Listen and read what others have said about tyre contact in open
wheel racing.

        (i) Wheel banging rim to rim. Basically safe. Done to 'lean
        on a driver who pisses you off.

        (ii) Allowing a following driver to get the FRONT of his
        tyres in contact with the REAR of your tyres. Murder.
        Literally. THE MOST DANGEROUS THING THAT CAN HAPPEN. Done by
        some Brazilian world champions when they aren't winning, and
        lots of formula ford boys who wish they were as well.

YOU are all right: Your tyres just get a flat spot and forced into
the road. The other guy gets launched into the air. Note that the
driver OVERTAKING is always in danger. The driver being overtaken is
not. Patrese could not have put Berger in trouble. The only time I
have seen contact cause an off for the driver ahead was when
Shumachers wing came off after Martin Brundle banged him up the back.

Personally I think Berger intended to give Patrese a bit of a fright,
and maybe a flat spot and a bent wing, but it all went a lot further
than Berger ever intended. But we will never no. I base that on
Bergers history as a nice guy but given to pranks.
From: sfrisch@panache.East.Sun.COM (Shelley Frisch - Sun USOPS WSU Supplier Engineering)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Martinsville
Date: 28 Sep 1992 17:23:07 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: sfrisch@panache.East.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: panache.east.sun.com

I went home for lunch and the race is still being delayed.

They do hope to get it in today though.

Shelley
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: csroach@eng.clemson.edu (Shane Roach)
Subject: Re: When is Nigel's ESPN interview?
Organization: Clemson University
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:05:34 GMT

From article <BvpozK.DHw@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, by fosterr@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Raymond W. Foster):
> Might be on Speedweek, which supposed to be on Wed. at 11pm Eastern. Of
> course, ESPN might decide to show something else at that time like they
> have every other time over the past few weeks (Grrrrr).
 
Hopefully it'll be on schedule this week, since there's no more "X-day Night
Baseball" to set its own schedule and knock everything else off by half an
hour or God-only-knows-how-much more.

Shane Roach
csroach@eng.clemson.edu



Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: aefron@cornerstone.com (Andrew Efron)
Subject: Re: ESPN Bashing???...
Reply-To: aefron@cornerstone.com (Andrew Efron)
Organization: Cornerstone Research, Cambridge, Mass.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:04:16 GMT

In article <Bus5qF.F45@umassd.edu>, rgolen@UMASSD.EDU writes:

> With all the comments about ESPN and how "bad" Varsha is, etc..
> Howabout Sam Posy on ABC....Keeerist, talk about useless waste
> of the airwaves....useless statistics...and never-on-point
> commentary! The folks at ABC ought to have this man shot!
> 
> IMHO
> Ric Golen

I agree with the comments on Posey's skills as a commentator.  Interestingly, 
he's quite a good writer.  He recently did an excellent piece on Mark Donohue 
for Road & Track.

Andy


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I didn't do it to make history.  You do something that you want to 
do or feel you have to do, because you like it and love it.  And if 
it turns out to be history, well, so what?"

			--Carroll Shelby, from "The Cobra-Ferrari Wars, 1963-1965"
From: wilson@mailhost.aa.cad.slb.com (David Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: What is indy car about....
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:14:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: aa.1992Sep29.161418.25227
Organization: Schlumberger CAD/CAM; Ann Arbor, Michigan (USA)

In article <1992Sep25.011932.13311@cs.rose-hulman.edu> sienerbc@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Brian C. Siener) writes:
>
>In article <1166@racerx.bridge.COM> james@Bridge.COM (James Montebello) writes:
>> [stuff deleted] 
>> IndyCars use methanol for performance reasons. The safety excuses are
>> pure puffery.
> [more stuff deleted]
>Sir, if you believe what you just said, then you are an idiot... there
>is no way around it... INDY excels at safety... that is the only
>reason for having methanol...  it does not need to have a visible
>flame because you can see the guy who is on fire running around
>screaming  :)
>as for gasoline, it is quite unsafe in the sport as opposed to
>methanol.

I suspect, as with most arguments, the truth is somewhere in the middle.  It IS
the case that alcohol offers more performance than gasoline.  It is not nearly
as inclined to detonation, permitting much higher compression ratios.  It doesn't
pack as much energy for a given quantity of fuel, though, requiring bigger tanks
and/or more stops.

As for the safety aspects, I'm still not clear on all the issues.  It can be put
out with water once it's lit, and can be diluted with water to avoid spills
igniting in the first place.  Everyone seems to agree on those points.  As for
the probability of catastrophes, how much credit for avoiding repeats of the
Eddy Sachs incident should be given to methanol, and how much to fuel cells,
dry-break fittings, etc.??

Dave Wilson
From: danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Dan Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: F1 Portugal: Patrese incident
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:55:39 GMT
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation, Mountain View

Kari Leminen writes:

>>>So what do you think ?
>
>> 	I don't really think he was trying to play tricks. I think he was
>> genuinely going to pit, which he did, as one could see by his not having  
>> passed Patrese on the track afterward. It was a bad accident and berger
>> should have waved Patrese by...
>> 
>        Take a close look at that curve where accident started .
>	I heard some experts say that its simpy impossible to loosen
>	your grip from the wheel to wave . G-force ,you know...

I rewatched the incident on ESPN last night.  As Patrese is sliding up against
the guardrail, you can see the McLaren crew out waiting for Berger.  Then you
see Berger stop.  There is no question about it, it was a planned stop and 
Berger did stop.

But the more interesting thing that I noticed was that the contact occured
quite a ways after then exit of the corner.  I would estimate a good 2 seconds
easily enough time for Berger to indicate his intentions.

As for MHOs, Berger should have indicated he was pitting, but Patrese isn't 
totally without fault.  Berger changed his normal line that he had been taking 
like a driver would that was pitting.  So Patrese assumed that Berger was not
pitting (even though that wouldn't be a safe assumption given where they were 
in the race), or that he would indicate that he was pitting (again, not a safe
assumption since many other drivers don't do that in F1).  Or, as someone else
pointed out, a mechanical problem could have had the same result.  Patrese took
a calculated risk that didn't work out.  Anyway, I agree with others who 
thought it was a racing incident.

Dan Jones
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: lallo@stsci.edu (Matthew D. Lallo   (410)338-4577)
Subject: Possible SPOILER...IndyCar: The Bosch Spark Plug Grand Prix
Reply-To: lallo@stsci.edu
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore MD
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:05:13 GMT


No standings or results will be given, but I'm going to bitch about 
the attitude of someone who did not win so... skip now if you want.























Well, now I'm going to flame an Andretti too!
Just what the hell is the matter with that family?
Michael could not catch up with Bobby Rahal, who won, and when interviewed,
instead of saying good things about coming in second, first argued with his
wife briefly, then with the most foul demeanor imaginable, complained that he
lost because the yellow flag was out for too long and that screwed him up, and
why does the flag have to be out that long?. Then, when asked about his extra pit
stop said that he lost because of it, and that was the reason. He didn't need 
the extra fuel. What's his name then caught him on that and said, "but who's 
decision was that to come in?", to which he replied, "well I came in, and my crew
could've waved me back out but they didn't."

So, how 'bout that? In just 30 short seconds he comes off looking like Al Bundy,
doesn't mention a single word about his sponsors, alienates the race officials, and,
more importantly, his crew. HIS OWN CREW! People on this net who race understand
the importance of people who work on your car. But Michael publically insults them
nationally. 

That guy, and his father are asses. They may have (had) some talent, but so do a 
lot of other people. I haven't even seen F1 drivers give such a lousy post-race.

Sheesh!
Matt

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: kevinh@hslrswi.hasler.ascom.ch (kevinh)
Subject: Max Mosely Interview
Originator: kevinh@nath
Keywords: Max Mosely Interview
Reply-To: kevinh@hslrswi.hasler.ascom.ch
Organization: Ascom Hasler AG
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 10:15:34 GMT


I saw the end of an interview with Max Mosely on Sky News (european news
channel) who was commenting on Nigel Mansells move to Indycar. He said
that he couldn't see why Mansell would want to move to Indycar, as compared
to F1 it is technically backward and ( I forget his exact words) and does not
have such close racing as F1, it being more comparable to F3000 ( and therefore
a step down from F1). He compared the move with a star football player moving
from a premier league club to a third, or at very best, a second division
club.

He also said that Mansell would bring more to Indycar than Indycar would bring to Mansell and that, in his opinion, Mansells move to Indycar is a big mistake.

Max Mosely has suddenly risen in my estimation  :-) :-).

kevinh@hasler.ascom.ch

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: jwj2@po.CWRU.Edu (Jermaster)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: NASCAR: Martinsville Results *SPOILER*
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 22:15:53 GMT
Organization: Eastern & Ohio Railroad Company
NNTP-Posting-Host: b63154.student.cwru.edu

The race finally ended about 6:00pm. Geoff Bodine was the winner, followed
by Rusty Wallace in second and Brett Bodine in third. Kyle Petty finished
in fourth, which was impressive since he was down 3 laps at one point. I'm
not positive of the rest of the top 10, although I do remember that Sterling
Marlin, Mark Martin, and Dick Trickle were up there. 

Davey Allison finished 16th, and Bill Elliott ended up 30th. Dale Earnhardt
ended in 31st with fan belt, low oil pressure, all kind of problems. :-(

There will definitely be plenty of work for the body men this week, with all
kinds of crashes, spins, and yellow flags. I don't think one car came out
of the race unscathed.

Elliott is still leading Allison by 112 points in the WC standings. 

And off we go to North Wilkesburo......

Later,
-Jer
--
Jerry W. Jordak        Climb back in the cab, gonna be there 'till dark
a.k.a. Jermaster       We gotta keep movin' if we're gonna make a buck....
(jwj2@po.cwru.edu)                                                 -- BTO
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: m14430@mwunix.mitre.org (Lawrence Larson)
Subject: Re: F1 Portugal: Patrese incident
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:49:14 GMT

b102smi@utarlg.uta.edu (George M. Smiley) writes:

>I think that the both of you are fools for spouting of at the mouth before
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There is no need for such inflammatory language during a sane discussion.

>strait. What was Berger supposed to do ? Try to put his hand out at 300

Yes, if he slowed intentionally.

>km/hr ? Pull over to the side of the road, wait for everybody to pass him
>and then pull into the pits ? Had Patrese not hit him, he would of ended
>up trying to pass Berger in the pits, put simply, Patrese was too close
>to Berger for his own good, it was a racing accident and both drivers are
>at equal blame. Review the tapes !

I have not been able to review all available camera views of the incident as
F1 officials should, but I can comment on your scenario: If I'm on the track,
hounding someone in a racing situation, and he *decides* to lift or pit, he is
obligated to signal me. That obligation is an element of the trust that allows
us to race at close quarters. To do anything less, i.e. to "brake test"
another driver, is simply assault with a deadly weapon - and extremely
deadly in the case of open-wheelers. If you don't race yourself, just ask
your friendly neighborhood SCCA driving school instructor instead of blowing
macho smoke.

Note the word "decides" above. Obviously, there are events which occur due to
mechanical failure, etc., which have the same result of slowing the leading
car dramatically and unexpectedly - those cannot be signaled and those are
"racing accidents".

Unless there were some such *unpredictable* occurrences, Berger was responsible
for that accident. Has anyone at all alleged such an *unpredictable* event?

-- Larry

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: dave@monitor.larc.nasa.gov (Dave A. Hinde)
Subject: Re: Martinsville
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:26:48 GMT

Lots of "frammin' and bammin'" going on.  Glad someone finally turned on my VCR :-)

A couple cautions ago Geoff took the green followed by Davey, Rusty, et al
	Rusty banged his way past Davey, Davey ran into his back bumper in #1,
	Rusty spun, Davey and Kyle went to the grass, Martin and Marlin hit the wall.
	Kyle was stuck, Davey continued.
After about 430 laps:
	Brett Bodine, Rusty Wallace, Geoff Bodine, Kyle (-1 lap), Dick Trickle,
		Davey Allison, Alan K., and Sterling.
	Alan K. and Mark Martin bump, Mark spins, no caution

	                              ___/,@___  Dave Hinde, Last Minute Racing
                                     /_o_____o_| dave@monitor.larc.nasa.gov
From: unglenie@ford.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J Unglenieks)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: What is indy car about....
Date: 1 Oct 92 04:48:30 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Sep30.174542.11180@kronos.arc.nasa.gov> chucko@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Chuck Fry) writes:
Mark Johnson writes:
>>Unless the action has been taken relatively recently (last 5-7 years)
>>Indy car rules do NOT ban the use of gasoline. Any fuel is allowable;
>>it's just that everybody in recent years has burned methanol because it's
>>best suited for the engines they're using. CART may have changed this.

It's been more than seven years.  Taken from rule 9.22 Fuel.

"... Fuel is restricted to methanol only, with the exception of proprietary
 additives that are product certified or materials approved by the Director
 of Operations and/or Chief Steward....The additive content may not exceed
 one (1) percent of the fuel ...."

>Methanol is mandatory at Indy, and has been since the Eddie Sachs disaster.
>I can't believe that CART doesn't also mandate it, since the use of
>gasoline would allow an overwhelming advantage in number of pit stops
>or all-up vehicle weight -- the teams wouldn't be able to pass it up!

Many things were required after the Sachs/MacDonald incident.  Fireproof
suits were required beginning in 1959 and thus wasn't a result of the 
accident.  The major rule change was the switch to methanol only and
smaller fuel tanks.

Rob U
--
-       Rob Unglenieks             REAL race cars DON'T wear BOWTIES       -
-     "Our task must be to free ourselves by widening our circle           -
-      of compassion to embrace all living creatures."                     -
-                           -  Albert Einstein                             -
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: rschoen@laborixsai.mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Reinhard Schoen)
Subject: Question Finnish names
Reply-To: rschoen@laborixsai.mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Reinhard Schoen)
Organization: University of Ulm, SAI, Germany
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 14:32:47 GMT

Does anybody know the full name of the F1 driver J.J. Lehto?
And can anyone tell me how Mikka Hakkinen is spelled correctly?
I mean, is the second letter of his last name really the
ASCII char 'a', or is it the umlaut '"a' ?

Thank you in advance
Reinhard
__________________________________________________________
    Reinhard Schoen
     Bruehlstr. 19           rschoen@mathematik.uni-ulm.de
      7900 Ulm 12
        GERMANY
From: cg894@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brian Lee Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: McLaren and Renault
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:16:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1aq7q3INNo6h
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Do you think that McLaren and Renault will have a decent         
relationship considering how Ron Dennis got it?        

I would think that, as long as someone is writing the checks,
and the team is competitive, which it most likely will be,
Renault ought to be tickled pink to give their motors to 
the British team.  Four cars with Renault engines inside and
Renault stickers outside, AND consistently in the top ten
would be better than what they have now.  This would effectively
double their World Championship hopes.

Maybe they will give a little consideration to giving the RS4 and
the later development engines to McLaren.  That would be great
to see.
 
-- 
Brian Wilson... No, not from the Beach Boys.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: denis@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Denis Schiozer)
Subject: Re: Mansell left because of Prost?
Keywords: Mansell/Prost/Senna 
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:52:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.151529.14051@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> duane@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (duane.galensky) writes:
>In article <92272.170700A735FJO@HASARA11.BITNET> <A735FJO@HASARA11.BITNET> writes:
>> 
>
...
>
>nige had to do all year was to be on guard against that
--------------------------------------------------------
>brain fade, and drive like an orangutan on amphetamines.
--------------------------------------------------------
>
>i was feeling pretty good about mansell winning until all
>this stuff went down.  maybe paul newman will be more interested
>in tucking him in at night and telling him bedtime stories
>than frank williams was.   who cares.  yawn.
                            ---------
>
>personally, i can't wait to see senna's doors blown off by
-----------------------------------------------------------
>michael andretti!  as for senna's comment above, you gotta
-----------------
>
>duane
------
>
>PS: alain prost - 1993 world driving champion!!!!   are you
>    listening, my dear little ayrton?  don't cry...perhaps
>    there's a future for you selling used cars in rio...

I think you have to wait a long time to see that your dreams
won't come true. 
It looks like is you that want the other's people toys, not Senna.
                 ---
Before any prediction aboute Ayrton's future job, remember that
he refuse a $25 million dollars contract with Ferrari. I looks
to me he will be in Rio, but it's more likely that you will be
selling used cars.

I'm sorry to take this personnally but I think every one has the
rigth to choose what to do and Mansell and Senna are rigth to
claim a fair treatment from Frank Willians. They are good.
They are world champions. And they make the show that you are
watching.

                         Denis Schiozer
From: dreining@gmuvax.gmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Nazareth IndyCars/Flemington Supermods
Date: 29 Sep 92 01:06:52 GMT
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, VA.

If you're going to the Nazareth IndyCar race and 
you're looking for something to do Saturday night
(Oct. 3) there is a Supermodified race at 
Flemington Speedway in Flemington NJ. This is
a 125 lapper sanctioned by the International
Supermodified Association(ISMA). Supermodifieds
are the cars which have 700+ HP motors offset to
the far left side of the car.

Also on the bill are the American Racing Driver
Club (ARDC) Midgets. The ARDC has been around
for a long time and boasts Mario Andretti as one
of its former drivers.

They will also have someone making their debut as
a motorcycle jumper(I forget the name).

Flemington Speedway 
Flemington, NJ
Track phone (908) 782-2413
Racing starts at 7PM

The local folks tell me I can make it to Flemington
from Nazareth in about an hour.

DAVE  dreining@gmuvax.gmu.edu  chasin races
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport