Organization: Rohm and Haas Company
Date: Wednesday, 15 Apr 1992 16:50:09 EDT
From: Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: USA go home (Was Re: Shooting)
 <1992Apr14.202532.6159@pony.Ingres.COM> <15311@optima.cs.arizona.edu>

I usually don't apologise in advance for what I post here, but some of
the stuff that's been posted in this thread is so twisted, that I'm
tempted to ignore it. But there are too many inflammatory statements,
and too much bad history and twisted logic to let it go unanswered.

I recently alluded to the fact that Northern Ireland usually only lasts a
few weeks as a subject in this group before it erupts into a total flame-war
that has nothing to do with the situation in Ireland today. Until now, the
recent NI threads kept their focus for a lot longer than usual. Probably
because the likes of Gary Newell and George McQuary were in hibernation,
and Mark Holohan kept starting new threads, rather than flaming on his
old threads. The sharen_lund (?) person wasn't involved consistently enough
to count.

_FLAME ON_
In article <15311@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
says:
>In article <1992Apr14.202532.6159@pony.Ingres.COM>, gmcquary@Ingres.COM
>(George F. McQuary) writes:
>>I'd say we here in the USA are remarkably well restrained compared to some.
>
>Forget it George - the opinion that Irish-Americans are blood-thirsty morons
>who like nothing more than selling violence to other countries is a given
>here.

Actually, the experience of posters familiar with the group is that Irish-
American contributors are decidedly more blood-thirsty than the norm. As for
their being morons, I usually give them the benefit of the doubt, and ascribe
their ignorance to the US educational system (which I see you don't have
a high opinion of).
>
>That is true and is often not discussed in this group - the reality of the
>situation is that Irish-Americans are far better off as a whole than are the
>Irish themselves... not that this reflects on their relative merits but it may
>lend some insight as to why American Irish tend towards more extreme views...
In a material sense that mey be true, but there are certain advantages to
life in Ireland. (For instance, the streets of Belfast are safer than the
streets of New York). There are Americans who prefer to live in Ireland, and
who consider themselves 'better off' as a result of that move.
>
>> We came to this country
>> because of famine, having our land stolen from us, conscription, or as white
>> slaves for the plantations. Because of this, the average Irish-americian
>> is fairly pissed off at the UK.
Now, according to Gary, the average Irish American is better off than his
Irish cousin. Does this not indicate that the Brits did them a favour in
running them out of Ireland 150 years ago?
>
> I used to believe this until I moved to Arizona. For those who may not know
>Arizona was settled by an Irishman long before most Eastern citites were
>ever set foot on by the whiteman. Irish worked the railroads in the
>southwest and settled here in great abundance. But compared to my education
>regarding our homeland that I received in Massachusetts and that which I
>see presented here in the southwest, I have to say that probably "most"
>Irish-americans do not receive the history which would allow them to
>view the situation in Ireland as anything but what the dominating press
>presents....
So was the Irishman who first settled Arizona one of "our" Irishmen, or was
he (God forbid!) Scotch-Irish?
>
>> When faced with such arrogance in the sons of the people who did this to us,
>>it is  difficult NOT to cheer whenever someone blows up more British.
>
> Although I understand what you are saying here, I doubt many others will.
>Unless you've grown up with a history which screams of injustice and
>brutality at the hands of the ever-so-noble British, you are unlikely
>to ever truly respect the anger which many Irish-Americans still harbor with
>respect to the British. It is much too easy to look at a US posting
>and write it off as some classic violent american who fits into the
>bullshit prototype that it seems most Europeans hold with respect to us.
Now you're actually talking some sense, Gary. The reactions of Irish Americans
are a direct result of the history they were taught in school or the home.
Much of this history was 3rd or 4th hand by the time you got it. The stuff
they put in the history books doesn't turn people into IRA supporters on its
own.
>
>> I very much
>> resent the attitude that Irish-americians should keep quiet about Irish
>politics.
>
>Bravo - as do I. It seems that we should be expected to give up our
>heritage and in effect bend over for those who see fit to portray us as
>a group of madmen wanting nothing more than blood on the streets and
>death counts on TV.
_WE_ don't portray _YOU_ as anything. _WE_ form impressions based on our
experiences, and in my experience in this newsgroup, the only people who
actually "cheer" when the IRA "kill more Brits" are Irish Americans.
>We, who are the descendants of those who were forced
>from their land or jailed for their views should simply ignore the
>continued injustice and allow things to "progress" as they currently are.
>After all, we do not live in Ireland and thus, it seems, have given up all
>rights to expressing our views with respect to the futre direction of the
>land that our mothers/fathers/grandparents called home. This is a common
>European attitude it seems to me, one which I've heard expressed by
>most countries of Western Europe - one wonders how important the
>ethnic groups in this country were with respect to the recent freedom gained
>in countries a bit further east....
If all you proud Irish-American actually gave a flying fuck about the future
of a peaceful Ireland, united or not, you might consider using your rights
as American citizens to get the US administration to put pressure on their
good friends, the British Government to actively seek peace in the North,
maybe even guaranteeing to underwrite some of the costs that might be
involved. Maybe if you spent more time utilising those rights, you wouldn't
squeal so much when we shun you for your inappropriate opinions.
>
> But as I said, I would expect very little more than extreme anger as a result
>of your post (I hope I am wrong) which is truly unfortunate as it tends
>to reflect the true bias that has long existed in this group...
Everybody is biased. If you're trying to imply that the tone of this group
is pro-British on the subject of Northern Ireland, then you've got a major
chip on your shoulder. Maybe you should seek medical advice. (If you're
actually implying that the tome in anti-American, I apologise if I hurt
your feelings).
>                        gln
>