From: bavaria@leland.Stanford.EDU (Andreas Meier)
Subject: Re: Jews and Germans
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 19:34:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.150456.19866@husc3.harvard.edu> abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan26.172225.12338@leland.Stanford.EDU>, bavaria@leland.Stanford.EDU (Andreas Meier) writes:
>> In article <1993Jan25.044134.19772@husc3.harvard.edu> abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu writes:

>> After the war he was very thrilled with the given chance to build a new, more
>> democratic Germany. And many ideas that found their way into the constitution
>> of the Federal Republic of Germany make this socalled "Grundgesetz" one of 
>> the most democratic and liberal constitutions ever written.
>
>Your father was brought up in unusual family. But for the fact that he and other
>liberal Germans were able to build democratic Germany you should thank A/E/F 
>troops. In East Germany they were not able. In the USSR after Stalin's death
>and 10,000,000 prisoners of labor camps returned home they were not able. But
>democratic constitution is not enough. Germany had pretty liberal constitution
>in 1932.
>
Of course, we, the young Western Germans were lucky that the Western allies de-
cided to help build a new democratic state in part of Germany.
But this did not happen only out of mercy but for a clear political reason, to
integrate at least part of the cracked down country into the Western hemisphere
as a blockage against the undemocratic, stalinistic East. This provided us, 
the post-war West-Germans with another advantage. At least we were informed 
about the cruelty of the Third Reich and it was also mentioned that this is
"our" history. This education took place in the family and also at school. 
In the Eastern part however any responsibility for the past was denied, the 
Germans living there were more or less told that they were "purged" by the new
socialist society. For that reason young Eastern Germans did not have to deal
with their countries past. This might be another reason besides economic hard-
ship why the centers of racism in the reunified Germany lie mainly in the 
East.
 
>> It was a part of my and my brothers education that the Third Reich as part of 
>> German history should always influence our behaviour and make us very 
>> sensitive in our relationship to other people, especially those who suffered 
>> the most under German oppression and cruelty.
>
>Give me a break. Read all postings "Jews and Germans". How many wrote that they
>should be very sensitive in their relationship to people who suffered under
>German oppression and cruelty? They wrote 
>1)You are racist if you are talking about "German cruelty".
>2)WW2 was just one war among others and wars are always cruel.
>3)They were born after WW2 so they are interested in German oppression no more 
>they are interested in US Marine raping.
>4)If I don't agree I am racist and Nazi myself.
>Again, as far as I could see, your position is not that popular.

I think you misunderstood me here. In this paragraph I did not speak about
the Germans in general but about my personal education. I disagree with those Germans who bluntly deny their countries past. Of course it may be unpleasant always to be blamed for the Third Reich, especially as the Germans crave for being liked by everyone (we won't admit it, but we do!). So I only can speak for 
me, not for my fellow countryman. But I also agree with Christian when he says that a fair discussion between oppressed (the Jews in this case) and the former
oppressor (the Germans) should be possible. I am sure that most of those who
discuss the matter on the net were not personally involved in Third Reich 
cruelty and oppression. But this discussion really leads to nothing if the
participants only exchange hatred and unqualified excuses. 
For example, the argument that the Germans didn't know is simply not true. 
They might not have known about the tremendous cruelty and the outrageously
high numbers of people being killed. But everybody knew that there were special
prisons( concentration camps of course )where people were tortured and killed.

Even kids, like my dad, who lived near Munich knew the expression: "Hoit's 
mai, sonst kimmst noch Dachau!" (for non-bavarians:" Shut up, otherwise you
will end up in Dachau!"), used in situation where somebody dared to joke about
Nazi officials. 

>
>> but I feel a strong responsibility to prevent it from happening again. And I>> hope that all reasonable young Germans think the same way. The huge 
>> demonstrations in German cities last autumn against xenophobia and racism 
>> where mainly young Germans participated seem to proof that.
>
>Look, I don't think that this firebombing could prove smth. You need only few 
>idiots to do them. On the other hand I am not that impressed by these
>demonstrations either. 1)As you surely understand the most part of young 
>Germans didn't take part in these demonstrations. I don't know their oppinion.
>In democratic country you could always organize demonstrations. 2) Young people
>always feel more liberal than their parents. What would happen with them later?
>Do you want example? Thousands of young Americans participated in
>demonstrations in the late 60-th. They voted for Republicans later. 
>3) I don't like goverment position at all. But I think that they are seeking
>votes and much more realistic then you. Again, don't you think that your
>position is far from average?

Well, that is hard to say. I know that a lot of my friends have the same point
of view. But I have to admit that some also do not feel obliged to carry their 
history with them. I posted my opinion on this subject because I had the 
feeling it might be important for this discussion that there are Germans out
there who feel responsible. Sofar most of the German postings tried to explain
the Nazi phenomenon, something that is especially difficult for Germans to do
because it always looks like an attempt to excuse something even if it is not 
ment that way. Christian tries exactly to do that and the only result he gets
is that he is permanently misunderstood. But I am completely sure he does not search for excuses, he only looks for explanations why something terrible like the Third Reich could have happened.

And finally, to all those who think this thread should be taken out of this
newsgroup: My friends, this is part of German history, it is important not to
forget even if it is not always easy for us. You cannot only pick the raisins
of German culture and forget about the dark sides.

Andreas



Xref: sparky soc.culture.german:10287 soc.culture.jewish:26102