Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Standing Trial (was re: a question)
From: zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:26:57 EDT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <TPS-L%92081701443035@INDYCMS.BITNET> "talk.politics.soviet
via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:

>From:         Michael Zeleny <zeleny@HUSC9.HARVARD.EDU>

>>The first Hetman was nothing compared to the last one (one hopes!);

>By the way Boghdan was not the first Hetman, and Petlyura was not Hetman at
>all - Skoropadski was! (though also a big jerk).

Petliura was Hetman of the armies.

>>from
>>1917 to 1920 over 100,000 Jews were murdered during pogroms, most of which
>>were conducted by uniformed members of the Ukrainian army.  Of my own
>>immediate family, at least two men were killed and one woman raped by
>>Petliura's troops.

>With all my sorrow and condolences about the death of members of your family,
>I would like to make some suggestions regarding that period of time.
>  First of all, from 1917 till 1920 Ukraine was not under one Hetman, but
>under dozens of different 'supervisions'. One ataman was fighting another,
>"red" vs "white" vs "green" and all other colors.  Also do not forget Mahno,
>who though was Ukrainian had quite 'international' army of bandits.  If you
>will read carefully literature describing those times, you will found out
>that Petlyura was not the only one who was killing Jews (and not only Jews).
>The two 'best' soutces I can reccommend are K. Paustovsky (a brilliant writer
>who was himself a witness of events in the beginning of the century) and
>M. Bulgakov.  In their works "Povest o Zhizni" (Paustovski) and "Zapiski vracha"
>and "Belaya Gvardia" (Bulgakov) is clearly stated that pogroms in Odesa and
>Kiev were not only by Ukrainians, but also Russians and some of foreign armies:
>Germans, Poles, etc. who also were in those cities for quite a while (by the way
>Petlyura was appointed by German Commander of Troops in Ukraine).

I prefer historical sources to literary ones; good references to the
former may be found in Hannah Arendt's _Eichmann in Jerusalem_.

>>   I note that Shalom Schwartzbard, who assasinated Simon
>>Petliura in Paris on May 25, 1926, was acquitted by the French court, to
>>whose judgment he voluntarily submitted himself.  A similar judgment was
>>rendered in 1921 by the Weimar Republic court in Berlin in the case of the
>>Armenian assassin Tehlirian, who put an end to the life of the genocidal
>>Turkish murderer Talaat Bey, likewise insisting on standing trial for his
>>act.  There is a lesson here for our gutless, anomic times; I hope that it
>>won't be lost on my audience.

>Murder is always a murder.  Nobody gave us the right to take away human's life.

Indeed, no one gave you this right; it has to be taken, and
Schwartsbard and Tehlirian did just that.

>A criminal against humanity have to be tried  in court in front of everybody,
>not just assasinated.

Note that the assasins insisted on standing trial for their deeds, which,
in the words of Georges Suarez, "signified that their race had finally
decided to defend itself, to leave behind its moral abdication, to overcome
its resignation in the face of insults".  Had they not exercised their
right to take away the lives of murderers of their people, both Petliura
and Talaat Bey would very likely have lived to ripe old age, inspiring many
other killers.

>		       We all pay for what we do one way or another.  

I wish I could believe that.

>								     They
>also did - now let all dead rest in peace.

My concern is with the living.

>>"Nous donnons la mort, nous saurons la subir."

>Best regards,
>Timur Ruban
>"Ad mortius nihil veritas"

Say what?

>P.S.  I also have relatives who have been victimis of Halakaust and other kinds
>of anti-semitic actions (I am Ukrainian by my father's side, but I am also
>a Jew  by my mather's side - I equally value both of them)

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
"Un de mes plus grands plaisirs est de jurer Dieu quand je bande."

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet