From: robert@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Rob Karmolinski)
Subject: Re: My getting blasted on Xtianity is stupid
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 92 11:10:30 GMT

jw67+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jordan M. Wolbrum) writes:

>I was just reading through the responses to my previous post and decided
>to risk further humiliation at the hands of those I would call peers.

>A few things:

>I recognize that the T-shirts are a joke, and I do not wish to impose my
>sense of humor on anyone else.  But as part of my moral code, I attempt
>to choose not to deliberately be offensive to anyone.  Even theists, who
>I think are investing belief into garbage.

For many people, this is not a simple matter of risking offense by
imposing ones sense of humor, at the expense of another.  If theists
were simply stupid and harmless, then I could understand and agree with
your point.  But they are not harmless.  They are not simply investing
their own beliefs into garbage.  They wish to waste *your* resources as
well, and have done so for the last 5000+ years.  I see no reason to
avoid offending such people; perhaps you can enlighten me.

>I know I am an atheist, yet I have no proof(lack of proof?).  How is my
>position any more credible than that of my Christian neighbor?

Credibility is irrelevant.  If you and your Christian neighbor can
happily co-exist, then there's no problem.  But if your neighbor is a
"true" Christian, he will use every means to convert you, even at the
point of a sword.  Just look at all of the godless heathens that have
been decimated, so that we could claim this good old U.S. of A. as
God's very own.  You are correct in stating that we atheists do not
stand a chance, as we have no organized system to impose violence on
others, to persuade them of the "credibility" of our viewpoint.

>								I don't
>know.  But it's what I feel, what I know.  If I can change one other
>intellectual persons beliefs, or get them to consider what I feel, then
>I have made a great acheivement for all atheists.  But who will consider
>what I feel, if I don't consider what they feel?

You keep addressing this on a rational, non-violent level, as if you
could reason with your theistic opponent.  Regrettably, not all of your
opponents are willing to deal with you at this level, and will do
whatever it takes to shut you up, because your ideas are dangerous.
(Remember, your godless ideas are a large part of why America's so
screwed up today ... at least that's what I heard on my Christian radio).
Christians are a lot less violent then they use to be.  This is not due
to any enlightenment they may have received in this modern era; this is
due to the fact that they do not *need* to be violent anymore; they
have already conquered most of the world.  Make no mistake, if they
start to lose significant ground by rational discourse such as yours,
or for any other reason, they will become violent again, because it is
their God-given right.

>The only response toward hostility is counter-hostility.  If it comes
>down to Christians vs. Atheists, we will lose!  There are many more of
>them than their are of us, and they can all scream just as loud as we
>can.

If it comes to actual hostility, they will do more than just scream.
They already have.

>	Don't give up!  People listen, believe me.  You can't call
>yourself educated if you don't at least listen.  For whoever said that
>Christians will never see our beliefs as credible:

While you are willing to take a passive live-and-let-live approach,
Christians have been, and still are, constantly codifying *their*
beliefs into law, so that *you* are forced to abide by them.  Once
again, education is irrelevant, credibility is irrelevant.

>				    I don't need to convert anyone to
>atheism as long as they can accept me for who I am.

Regrettably, not all theists share your philosophy.

>A word of hope to atheists everywhere:

>There have always been doubters and non-believers.  There have not
>always been Christians.  There always will be doubters and non-believers.

This is true.  Even though Christianity is only about 2,000 years old,
the bulk of this religion consists of concepts take from other religions
and pieced together, as far back as 5,000 years ago.  Before then, there
was nothing to doubt or disbelieve.  Even if the Christians manage to
convert or kill *all* doubters or non-believers, they will still spawn
more.  I suppose there is some glimmer of hope that Christianity will
die before the sun expands and engulfs the earth, but I doubt if this
will happen in my lifetime.

>                            thank you
--
Rob Karmolinski		(robert@cs.ucla.edu)
My opinions.  No one elses, unfortunately.
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:18052 talk.origins:12069