From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Paradise (was Re: Clean And Unclean
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:38:05 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 RS> From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
 RS> Message-ID: <1992Sep09.181424.26694@watson.ibm.com>
                       -=> Quoting Rob Strom <=-
 RS> the garden of Eden and olam ha-ba are two different ideas entirely
 RS> The garden of Eden refers to a place on the earth.  And the story
 RS> in Genesis makes it clear that we can never go back there. Whether
 RS> you interpret the story literally or as a metaphor for the origin
 RS> of human awareness of God and of sin, either way you can't go back
 RS> Olam ha-ba, on the other hand, means "the world to come".  There
 RS> are also many different interpretations of what this is,
 RS> but it is generally not thought of as a place on the earth.
 RS> What I meant by this question is:  do you view the garden of Eden
 RS> and olam ha-ba as two different names for the same thing?
                             -BC> reply <BC-
Well, that depends on which idea you hold to.  Sanhedrin (start in 97b)
has various ideas on the: times of Messiah; the rest of the earth for
one-day/1000yrs; the re-creation of the universe; etc....  One Rabbinic
idea, is that Gan-Eden was lifted off the earth, after Chavah and Adam
were expelled, and that it still exists, and was known hereafter as
'paradise', and a place where the dead abode.  We don't "specificly"
refer to "Olam haba" as 'Gan-Eden', - however you need to clarify what
exactly YOU are refering to when you talk of: the world-to-come.  One
thought is to the Reign of Messiah Ben-David over the nations from
Yerushalayim; another - that it refers to a re-creation of the earth.
Both thoughts we'd agree upon, and both thoughts are present,
(depending on which view one adopts from Rabbinic lit.), in Judaism.
    [Though some may disagree]: Here is one view that would perhaps
    be a majority view....
1. The world increases in trouble, and then enters the time known as
   Ya'akov's trouble, (based upon the scroll of Daniel).
2. At the end of this time, there is a great war, the nations massing
   against Israel.
3. Israel is NOT destroyed in this war, and Messiah Ben-David comes,
   and rules from Yerushalayim for 1000yrs/a-day.  And the earth starts
   to take on the nature of how it was pre-flood. - If a man dies at
   100, he shall be called a child.  {Somewhere before this, the
   opinions vary}, the righteous dead are raised;  but those left alive
   on the earth after Messiah Ben-David comes, enter this time period.
4. haSatan - (reff. the Yitsah harah) is bound during this time, and
   so sin is greatly diminished, - though we see from Tanakh there is
   still sin on the earth - though much reduced.
5. At the end of this period, the universe is shaken, the judgement
   of the wicked dead takes place, and there is a re-creation of the
   heavens and the earth. - And all creation enters into an eternal
   Shabbat, creation having come full cycle: - from creation to the
   seventh-day Shabbat - through the fall and six + one time periods -
   then back to an 8th-day/new-beginnings re-creation - an on into
   an eternal state of Shabbat.  These ideas are present, (in various
   forms), in both Rabbinic & Messianic Judaism, as well as in Gentile
   expressions of Christianity.   -Makes for a very interesting study.
                         -=> Quoting Rob Strom <=-
 RS> If you mean by your question, "How would I justify myself before
 RS> God at the time of my death", then my answer is:  through my
 RS> acts of righteousness, justice, mercy, kindness, charity,
 RS> and improving the world.  I think that the answer to this
 RS> question distinguishes Jews of all flavors from Christians.
                             -BC> reply <BC-
    Not really.  While both Gentile Christians and Messianic Jews
    would NOT agree that 'our merits justify us'; - we do believe that
    our reward in olam haba is based upon how we lived our life; but
    that our entrance into the world-to-come is not, -(based on merit).

... 012 they heard the Voice of HaShem El*him walking in the garden...210        
--  
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