HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Subject: Re: Reasonably priced good team
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:17:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.213254.23833@leland.Stanford.EDU> bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert) writes:
>In an aside to the common practice of assembling (usually) high-priced
>`Dream Teams', my friend Juan and I today went about the task of
>creating what we thought was a pretty good team of reasonably priced
>players.  We thought that we would have to be careful and exclude players
>who are almost assured of getting enormous contracts shortly (i.e. Frank
>Thomas).  Our picks for the NL
>
>OF  Cory Snyder (dirt cheap)
>OF  Felix Jose
>OF  Otis Nixon
>1B  Mark Grace (how much does he make?)
>2B  Delino DeShields
>SS  ?
>3B  Anybody except Matt Williams is OK
>C   Mike LaValliere
>P   Bill Swift
>P   Kent Hill
>P   Bob Tewksbury
>
>Do these sound reasonable?  What about the AL?
>
>Matt Bohnert

2b Scott Fletcher
SS  Pat Listach
3B  Kevin Seitzer

Seitzer signed for the league minimum, probably Listach too. Fletcher has
done a good job and can't be making too much. I suppose Bordick from
Oakland wouldn't be a bad choice either.

--Salty

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rrmst3+@pitt.edu (Roberto R Molinari)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:48:05 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

>>In article <1992Jul24.221235.3817@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>My point is that I can't have anything close to accurate knowledge about
>the attitude of any player, much less how that attitude translates into
>winning or losing games.  The information is so inaccurate as to be as far
>from any reality as making things up would be.
>

Okay, so maybe the Bonds thing was a bad example, but what about my earlier
scenario where Frank Thomas breaks Jack McDowell's arm?  Youd didn't address
that one.  I'll admit that there probably isn't enough info on *every* player
to adjust his stats for attitude, but if there is a case where there is
sufficient information to make the adjustment, then I don't see how you
can simply choose to ignore it and claim that you accurately can access a
player's worth to his team.

bert
-diehard sox fan (red that is)
From: stnd@gibbs.physics.purdue.edu (Scott N. Dickson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: ** WIFFLEBALL **
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:16:27 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Physics Department



We play one-on-one or two-on-two wiffleball a few times a month.  We play
in a field with a volleyball net, which serves as our Green Monster.
Its a really short poke to get one over.  Other rules:

Anything caught while still rolling is an out.  Also, we play that the
pitcher has an option, instead of walking somebody, they can "groove"
an Ackeresque pitch for the batter to swing away at.  And yes, we call
balls and strikes, so it becomes a game of pitching.  Great fun.


"Wiffleball is my favorite game, except of course for Bocce."
                               -John Stuart Mill
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Both Canadian teams in first place
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:11:03 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <UeRhnhy00WB48_C540@andrew.cmu.edu> Amit Likhyani <al1x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>by the end of the millenium.  I think an all Canadian world series would suck
>and I would not take time out of my semester to watch it.

Why would a World Series between two exciting teams that happen to play
their home games in Canada suck?  I really don't understand this attitude,
Amit; would a World Series between, say, Texas and San Diego suck?

Personally, if the Pirates don't win, I'm pulling for the Expos.  I think a
Toronto-Montreal World Series would be great.  Guzman, DeShields, Alomar,
Walker, Alou - sounds like fun to me.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Cone threw how many pitches?
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:41:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.044757.4376@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <Jul.27.15.47.35.1992.8185@remus.rutgers.edu> zelek@remus.rutgers.edu (Grey Wolf) writes:
>>   
>> Who says that making a pitcher work a little harder will shorten his career?
>>There's considerable debate going on these days on whether or not it's the 
>>LACK of consistant use that does a pitcher in these days.  Not terribly long
>>ago staff aces used to throw 20+ complete games a year and well over 300 
>>innings per season.  That's probably enough pitches for almost two full
>>seasons in today's game.
>
>But how many of them were throwing 150 pitches in one *game*?  I could
>easily play hockey an hour and a half a day, every day of the week (if
>I could afford the ice time).  But playing 4 hours every Sunday would
>absolutely *kill* me.

I think probably many of the "old-timers" such as Gibson, Carlton, Ryan,
Seaver, etc, regularly exceeded 150 pitches per games.

>Besides, the game was different then.  Pitchers didn't go all out
>on every pitch.  Probably less stressful.

This is probably a more valid point, though I'm not sure if 'going all out'
is the proper term. It seems that there is more emphasis on pure power
pitching these days, and on such things as "strike-out to IP" ratios. In the
"old days' of Johnson, Grove, and Alexander, 160 Ks was sometimes enough to
lead the league. In Johnson's BEST k/9 inning SEASON, he averaged 7.5; for
his career, 5.3. By comparison, Gibson averaged 7.2 and Carlton 7.1 for
their careers. Throwing out Ryan as an anomoly, it seems that throwing 
harder does take a lot more out of an arm. 

Perhaps someone has K/9 inning stats, and things like #pitchers with over
200, 250, 300 IP/season for the various decades?

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^H  man vi ^@  ^L  ^[c  ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help  helpquit ^D  ^d 
man help ^C ^c help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d..."
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jkness@IASTATE.EDU (Joel K Ness)
Subject: Re: Strike 1 on Commissioner
Reply-To: jkness@IASTATE.EDU (Joel K Ness)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:19:12 GMT

>   The Cubs have been granted their request for a preliminary injunction
>restraining Commissioner Vincent's decision to move them to the NL West!
>The judge stated that the commissioner overstepped his bounds, and has
>no more right to move the Cubs to the NL West than to the AL.  Take that,
>commish!  Cubs win round 1.  We're all waiting with baited breath for
>round 2.


What makes more sense Cubbie fans, Atlanta in the NL west or your Cubs?
This is really stupid!!!  Waaa  Waaaa
--
******************************************************************************
Joel K. Ness
Aerospace Engineering and Engineering Mechanics Dept.
2064 Black Engineering
Iowa State University                   "But captain, I can't change the 
Ames, Iowa  50010                        laws of physics"--Montgomery Scott
******************************************************************************
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 28 Jul 92 04:45:50 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <1992Jul27.121025.3390@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

[Reasonable stuff, including:]

>	I think many of the reactions like yours are brought on by the 
>"statheads" making definitive statements about player's worth.  Real statheads
>understand that all their numbers are only an approximation of the truth.
>The fact that baseball statistics seem to function in a pretty coherent 
>pattern (i.e., there are predictable relationships between them ) seems to
>imply that, in most cases, intangible have a negligible impact.  

This is important.  In fact, what is most important is that we can go beyond
this a bit, as follows.  Our models predict actual winning and losing up to a
certain percent of error that we can't seem to get rid of.  Now, that error
is the portion of winning that is not "explained" by the model.  It could have
several components: clutch performance, personal intangibles, attitude, team
chemistry, sheer random luck.  But, and this is the key, the *sum* of those
effects can't be any bigger than the variation from what is predicted that we
actually observe.  If the model is invariably correct within 5%, then the sum
total of all the luck, chemistry, clutchness, etc. is no more than 5% of the
process.

Now, probability theory can often tell us how much variation we should expect
to see if luck were the *only* other factor besides the model components.  And
quite often, when we look at how much variation due to luck we should expect
to see, that amount accounts for essentially *all* of the model's variation 
from actual performance.  In other words, there's no place left for those
other effects to be hiding, because their variance would show up in the total
variation of the process.  The variance of the sum of independent processes
is equal to the sum of their individual variances.  Unless someone can come
up with a good reason to think that (say) chemistry and clutch hitting are
negatively correlated (!), the combination of the model and the random 
variation in the model that we expect to see accounts for almost all of the
behavior we observe in real life.

This same argument works on smaller models aimed at understanding smaller
pieces of baseball.

>In a certain
>case they might have a huge impact and statheads are often reluctant to 
>concede this.

True.  The problem is that, if these huge impacts exist, they must be so
infrequent as to have almost no effect on the overall variation of the win-
producing processes.  They're sort of like miracles; even those who believe
in them can be very hard to convince that a *given* event is an example of
one, simply because of the nature of the thing.


-- 
        David M. Tate        | "And that inverted Bowl we call The Dome
   dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu   |  Whereunder crawling coop'd we field and bat,
   Edward "Mike" Fitzgerald  |     Lift not your eyes to *it* for help--for it
     from "The Ruthaiyat"    |  Will drop the tow'ring fly upon your hat."
From: sbmsg1.UUCP!acw@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Commish is Gone (maybe) !!
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:24:00 GMT
Organization: Southern Bell - MSG  Atlanta, Ga
X-mailer: Stadel 3.4a-227
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

In article <1992Jul17.172759.7787@asd.com> scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) 
writes:

>>Given that Sherri can't even SPELL Giamatti, I don't think
>>it unreasonable to demand proof of these allegations.

I find it quite humorous when people are running out of steam 
in their arguments they resort to pointing out spelling errors.  
When you screw up...ADMIT IT.  This is rec.sport.baseball.
When I want perfect text, Ill go to rec.spelling.


Alvin White
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Dawson, was: Re: GMaddux to Test Free Agency Waters
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 23:27:47 GMT

In article <Bs68I3.D8M@news.cso.uiuc.edu> yl44729@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Rick Lin ) writes:
>Dawson an average defense player?  He's still one of the best defensive  
>outfielders around.  He still has enough speed to run down most fly balls.
>His arm is still one of the strongest and most accurate.  25 HRs is not bad
>for any power hitter and so is 90-100 RBIs.    

Dawson's offensive problems have been discussed to death now, so I am not
going to repeat them.

Dawson's defense is no better than average, and quite possibly worse than
average.  Last year, his range was slightly below average, and his assist
numbers were down, I believe.  Anyone with DA numbers out there?

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Both Canadian teams in first place
Keywords: Canadian first
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:26:19 GMT
Organization: Boo!

In <1992Jul29.123959.22646@nstn.ns.ca> maceache@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Tim Maceachern) writes:

>I believe this is the first time (other than the first one or two days 
>of a season) that both Canadian teams have been in first place at the
>same time.  How'd you like a World Series played completely in Canada, eh?

The more interesting question is - how would CBS like a World Series
played completely in Canada?  

Greg 
-- 
  spira@panix.com       "The one-O delivery to Fisk.  He swings.  Long drive,  
 cmcl2!panix!spira      left field!  If it stays fair, it's gone!  Home Run!"  
158-17 Riverside Dr.                     Ned Martin, 10/22/75   
Whitestone NY 11357          (Insert your favorite baseball moment here)
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Errors on Double Plays (Was: Re: Mo Vaughn - All Star 1st Baseman)
Date: 22 Jul 92 12:28:02 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <5027@transfer.stratus.com> dswartz@redondo.sw.stratus.com  
(Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
> 
> Mo Vaughn has never impressed me at first base, but even for
> his iron glove, tonight was a horror show.  He made two errors
> (should have been five, but he escaped two because of rules
> technicalities).  First Hesketh picks off Wally Joyner, who
> was out by a mile, but Mo drops the ball, so Wally gets credit
> for a stolen base.  Bwa ha ha!  Later in the inning, a ground
> ball is hit to Boggs, who initiates the 5-4-3 double play.
> Only problem is, Vaughn drops the relay from Reed and another
> run scores.  Since you can't assume a DP, he isn't charged with
> any error. That doesn't sound right to me.  I've seen the rule
> applied when one of the other fielders bobbles the ball so that
> only one runner can be retired, but in this case, the 1st out
> had already been made and the ball was to Vaughn in plenty of
> time.   If it isn't an error, it should be.  Change the rule
> if need be. 
  
I thought they changed that rule somewhere along the line, so that
the firstbaseman COULD be charged with an error, since there was
no real assumption about it. If the ball reached firstbase before
the runner, the runner should have been out.  The "can't assume
the double play" is really supposed to be in the rules to help
the shortstop and secondbaseman who make poor throws to first, since
they did get one person out already and it is much more of a judgement
call about whether the batter would have been out.  

I'm going to have to buy another copy of the baseball rules and
keep it here in my office. Or, better yet, are there on-line versions
available at any of the archives?

Speaking of Sox firstbasemen, what's the word on the Q?  Is he
going to try to make a comeback this year?

--
Jim Mann       jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  Stratus Computer
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: RP/PA for AL and NL (More bogus RP stats)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 22:55:25 GMT

In article <Brr616.wI@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:

>What you don't think that a player who has more RBI and Runs than anyone
>else on the team isn't valuable.  A guy with a lot of RBI and Runs scored
>for their team as compared to other players shows that that player has been 
>more productive in the opportunities he has got than other players on his
>team.

Simple.  If I play for a little league team, I will (hopefully :-)) lead the
team in R and RBI by a *huge* margin.  However, does that make me more valuable
than a major league player?

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: Re: Indians have the Twins' number?
Summary: Do the Indians have the Twins' number???
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: Twins and Indians
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 22 Jul 1992 09:15 EST  

In article <sybesmer.711766596@uther>, sybesmer@uther.calvin.edu 
     (Eric W Sybesma) writes...

>Last night, the Indians pounded the World Champion Twins 5-1, [...]
>Now, the Twins have not lost two games in a row since June 16,
>which indeed proves their consistency.  However, I just heard
>that Cleveland is up on Minnesota 4-0 in the second.  Could
>it be that the Tribe suddenly has found the Twins' secret 
>and neutralized them?

Do you really think anyone will answer this question in the affirmative?
I won't.  It's just a couple of games.

>	I doubt it.  Look for the Twins to win 7-5 with some
>8th inning heroics.

I looked, and I didn't see it.  Now, if I am going to follow this
instruction, it might be helpful to know why such a result should
be expected for a given game.  Please outline the reasons in the future.

RG
From: prism.gatech.EDU!ccastmm@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Noooooooooo!!!!!!
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:53:00 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
X-mailer: Stadel 3.4a-227
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

In <1992Jul22.033309.27982@news.nd.edu> jortiz@thomas.helios.nd.edu (The 
Candyman) writes:

>The Braves traded the immortal Juan Berenguer for
                       ^^^^^^^ :-) :-) :-)!!!
>Mark Davis'$$$ contract.  Apparently John Schuerholz
>still believes in the 1989 N.L. Cy Young award
>winner.  I don't.  Even though I'm not into stats,

What is "the word"(TM) on Davis?  Damaged goods?  Bad Attitude?
Wrong City?  Lack of chances?  Too old?
Come on you guys in KC.  And, oh yea you got guys just saved
some money for a nice flat-fastball-rightie.  Thank you.

>Something else bugs me, and bugs me even more than
>the stats:  his huge contract.  I know that the
>Braves have a very low payroll, still, do they
>have to honor his contract?  I know key players
>are years from free agency, but shouldn't the 
>management start planning (i.e. saving) for when 
>the Tom Glavines, John Smoltzs and Ronnie Gants 
>are eligible to file for free agency?

He is now has the highest yearly salary of all the Braves.
You can definitely add David Justice (he was PO'ed at Spring
Training and did not hesitate showing it) and Steve Avery
to your list.

>This is a big gamble for Shuerholz, the Braves
>need to solidify a struggling bullpen, but it
>seems counter-intuitive to do so with a struggling pitcher.

If Cox follows form he is put him in the first middle relief
chance that comes along.  Now lets sit back and watch the
Mecker/Stanton situation for the closing lefties.

>I'll keep my fingers crossed.  I first didn't like
>the Berryhill-Bielecki trade either, now I love

The Braves have Peter Smith in the wings for when Bielecki
has problems and he has not.  Saw in this morning paper
that Bielecki pitched last night - must be over his "slight"
injury.


Lets go for 11 in a row!! (Say what?  The Bucs are coming to visit
for the weekend.  Better get to the game early kids!!)



-- 

Mike Marler                        | "Saving every nickel to spend on my
Internet: ccastmm@prism.gatech.edu |  my next set of thrills..." -somebody
Disclaimer: These views are not and should not be viewed as those of OIT.
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Talkin' Baseball
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:07:47 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: monsoon.berkeley.edu

Does anyone have the lyrics to Terry Cashman's song titled "Talkin' Baseball:
Mickey and the Duke?" I just love that song!

If anyone has the lyrics to that song or any other team version (e.g. Talkin'
Baseball: Tha Giants by the Bay), I would like a copy of it.

I already have the lyrics to the 1988 Dodgers' version "Talkin' Baseball 
(Forever Dodger Blue).

I would appreciate any information via e-mail to jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu

Thanks in advance,
Joe Hernandez (avid Dodger fan stuck in Northern California)
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Joseph TeleCommunications Enterprises World Headquarters
*****  *****  *****  jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU          jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU
    *    *    *      jhernand@nyx.cs.DU.EDU                    josephhz@IDS.NET
    *    *    *      cb085@cleveland.Freenet.EDU      jph@m-net.ann-arbor.MI.US
*****    *    *****  University of California, Berkeley, California, USA  94720
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: The Commish is Gone (maybe) !!
Organization: American Software Development Corp., W. Babylon, NY
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:27:06 GMT

In article <361@sbmsg1.UUCP> acw@sbmsg1.UUCP (Alvin White) writes:
>In article <1992Jul17.172759.7787@asd.com> scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:
>
>>>Given that Sherri can't even SPELL Giamatti, I don't think
>>>it unreasonable to demand proof of these allegations.
>
>I find it quite humorous when people are running out of steam 
>in their arguments they resort to pointing out spelling errors.  
>When you screw up...ADMIT IT.  This is rec.sport.baseball.
>When I want perfect text, Ill go to rec.spelling.

Folks, please watch how you edit your quoted followups!  The above
statement about spelling is not my quote.  It was included in my posting
as part of a response to the original poster.  In that posting, I never
commented on the spelling error because I do not consider it that
important in the grand scheme of things.  Please, I have enough problems
with flame wars, please don't put me in one I don't belong in!
-- 
scott barman			| <This space intentionally left blank>
scott@asd.com			|
 (I can barely speak for myself, you expect me to speak for my employer??)
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:45:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Need More Giants Postings
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

>No excuse here.  Mitchell is playing in the homerdome now.  The AL
>also have a lot more hitter's park.  So I conclude that if he can hit
>47 HR while playing half of the games in Candlestick, he should have
>no problem in the AL.  He needed to get out of Seattle.
>Edward Hui

Homer dome or no, the transition from NL to AL isn't so cut and dried.
Mitchell has always been prone to strike out.  The AL has a different
strike zone and Mitchell has not made the adjustment.  At this point he
is just waiting for the end of a wasted season.  Look for him to be back
in the NL by the end of this year.

************************************************
* Donald Boell - Hewlett Packard               *
*                                              *
* When you're chewing on life's gristle        *
* Don't grumble, give a whistle - Monty Python *
*                                 Life of Brian*
************************************************


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball