HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nau@quesadilla.ssesco.com (William Nau)
Subject: Re: Braking techniques
Organization: SSESCO
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 02:56:56 GMT

In article <nathane-060193173506@mxi-q700.natinst.com> nathane@eagle.natinst.com (Nathan Ellsworth) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.141232.1553@pencom.com>, stecz@pencom.com (John
>Steczkowski) wrote:
>> 
>> Who said you slip the clutch to engine brake? If you slip the clutch, you're  
>> doing it wrong.  You should match revs, i.e., when doing a 4 to 3 downshift,  
>> put the clutch in, rev the engine to match the engine rpms, and the tire rpms,
>I have always wondered how you match engine and tire rpms.  The tach shows
>the engine rpm.  Do you just do the math in your head to convert the speedo
>reading from mph to rpm?  Do you use your ears?

After driving a car for a while, you get very used to what rpm it should
be at for what gear at what speed.  It's just something that becomes 
natural.  Many people don't need a tach to do it, they just get used to
how it sounds.  It's not that difficult.  I don't do it, because I'm not
convinced it's worth it.

------
William R. Nau
Supercomputer Systems Engineering and Services Company (SSESCO)
511 11th Avenue South, Suite 216
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55415-1536
(612) 342-0003

nau@SSESCO.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: andy@b30.ingr.com (Andrew Brezinski)
Subject: Re: GM Paint peels!
Organization: Intergraph
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:29:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.142441.19116@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>In article <43741@gremlin.nrtc.northrop.com> jslee@nrtc.nrtc.northrop.com (John Lee) writes:
>>It's a shame that GM has to eat this expense; they are not "really"
>>to blame for it.  Between the EPA not allowing them to use the
>>"right" materials for a good paint job and the paint manufacturers
>>not being able to come with EPA-approved alternatives, stuff like
>
>A couple of years back I took some internal classes and had the
>opportunity to talk to a few engineers who do robotic paint processes. 
>The stuff they talked about is *fascinating*. If one had the idea that
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>painting a car is about as easy as painting a house or anything like
>that, listening to them would change this in a hurry...
>
>
>Spiros

Spiros, 

Don't tease us like this.  Can't you at least divulge a few of the details
without stepping on any toes at GM?

Andy Brezinski
Intergraph Corporation
Huntsville, AL 35894-0001
From: buck@granite.ma30.bull.com (Ken Buck)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: GEICO's Laser Guns
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:47:47 GMT
Organization: Bull HN Informations Systems Inc.

Steven Ritter <sr0o+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>I don't have any problem with GEICO donating laser guns to police. If
>they think that this will reduce claims (and thus their costs), then
>this is exactly what they should be doing. They do believe that speed
>kills: they won't insure you if you admit to using a radar detector.

believing is one thing, proving it is another.

i have yet to see any evidence showing that radar detector owners
are more dangerous drivers than those who don't own them.
i also haven't heard of any reputable studies that show that
'exceeding posted speed limits' is a significant danger.
most speed limits are created for political, rather than safety,
reasons, and as such are poor measures of safe vs. unsafe drivers.

insurance companies are always looking for ways to identify unsafe
drivers, and i have no problem with them doing that _as long as_
they choose methods that are reliable and fair.
From: ss@wpi.WPI.EDU (Scott Streeter)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: pop-up lights
Date: 8 Jan 93 08:51:09
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<bob1.726436322@cos>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: bob1@cos.com's message of 7 Jan 93 19:52:02 GMT


bob1> Honda make make good cars, but they don't do headlights worth
bob1> shit. 

Hey, the pop-up lights on my Integra still work fine. Still have the
same lights after 4 years and they still go up and down. And light the
road, not the sky. I don't even bother leaving them up in the winter
like some people have mentioned, and they have yet to jam.
--
 Scott Streeter                             Visit the Star Wars Archive at
 ss@wpi.wpi.edu                             wpi.wpi.edu       130.215.24.1
From: andrew@frip.WV.TEK.COM (Andrew Klossner)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: New car bargaining
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:02:41 GMT
Reply-To: andrew@frip.wv.tek.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix Color Printers, Wilsonville, Oregon

[]

	"It helps to have an accomplice.  You can "casually" talk to
	one another with the salesperson in ear's shot."

Or when you're alone in the salesperson's office.  He/she's listening
through the hidden microphone.  *Never* hold a true confidential
conversation on a dealer's premises.

  -=- Andrew Klossner  (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com)
                       (uunet!tektronix!frip.WV.TEK!andrew)
From: aland@informix.com (Colonel Panic)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:24:27 GMT
Organization: Helen Keller Bondurant's Performance Driving School for the Blind

In article <184797@pyramid.pyramid.com> lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) writes:
>In article <64590106@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com> knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Tom Knotts) writes:
>>This is your own opinion. The Saturn is not a cheap car; it is extremely
>>well-engineered.  I'll put my Saturn SL up against any import in the
>>same price range (I paid $9200 out-the-door for a '92).
>>
>  What?  I can't hear you over the racket from that !@#$! engine!

Exactly how many Saturns have you driven?  Models with both engines, covering
all 3 years?  If not, cut your own "racket".  I'd almost agree with noise 
complaints about the '91 and early '92 DOHC engines, but not anymore.

>  Its a "nice" car, but none of the most rabid pro-American auto
>  press attempts to pretend it can compete for "look and feel" with
>  the better Japanese and European imports in its price range.

"Rabid pro-American auto press"???  What press are you reading?  

>  It's not as "cheap" as the Vega GT, Cosworth Vega, etc. but it
>  ain't an Accord either.

THAT's for sure.  We had 3 Accords in my family a year ago; they're being
quickly replaced, two by Saturns.

If you don't like the Saturns, fine, but many drivers who appear to have done 
far more exhaustive comparisons than you prefer the Saturns.  If rumors 
about the 1994 models are true, I'll end up owning one myself in a year or
two.  Meanwhile, I'm glad my mom got out of her deathtrap Accord into an SL1,
so I don't have to work on the damn Accord every few months anymore.

--
Alan Denney      aland@informix.com      {pyramid|uunet}!infmx!aland

  "Don't try to out-weird me, pal; I get stranger things than you
   free with my breakfast cereal."               -- Z. Beeblebrox
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech
From: vetter@mtu.edu (STEVEN J. VETTER)
Subject: Re: Braking techniques 
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:33:13 GMT

vwelch@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Von Welch) writes:
>In article <C0D4oy.A4A@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, bsmg9810@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Bhaskar S.Manda) writes:
><stuff blown away>
>|> 1. Since engine braking has nothing to do with the tire/road
>|>    contact, it should not cause skidding or loss of control.
>|>    True ? Counterexamples ?
>
>Hmmm. Breaks and downshifting both just attempt to slow down the rotational
>speed of the wheels, just by different means. You can cause the wheels to slip
>with a hard downshift just as you could with hard braking (I've done it).
>It's a little harder to do since at least in my car you pretty much
>have to pop the clutch. I think engine braking give better feedback then
>the brakes.
>
>-- 
>Von Welch (vwelch@ncsa.uiuc.edu)	NCSA Networking Development Group
>
>- I speak only for myself and those who think exactly like me 


  I've read an awful lot from people who advocate and frequently use engine braking
  as a means of slowing down.  Whereas I admit it is sometimes extremely useful, the 
  idea of regularly downshifting in a stick to break seems completely ridiculous to me.
  I'd much rather wear out my brake pads which are designed to be regularly replaced, than
  my clutch which isn`t.  Can someone please explain to me why so many people insist on 
  using their transmissions as brakes?

  This is not a flame, I just don't quite get why so many people regularly engine brake.  

-
-- 
Steve Vetter     DISCLAIMER-  The opinions expressed here are not those of
vetter@mtu.edu                my employer,  because I don`t have one yet.  If  
                              you wish for these opinions to be your company's,
Damn it's Cold!!!             or not, send e-mail to :  vetter@mtu.edu 
From: leonglaw@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com (Lawrence LEONG)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:12:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Ed Bradley on Larry King show
Organization: HP Singapore
Newsgroups: rec.autos

In rec.autos, hhtra@usho72.hou281.chevron.com (T.M.Haddock) writes:

|
|  Did anyone catch Ed Bradley on the Larry King show on CNN the other night?
|
|  A caller mentioned 60 MINUTES "wrongful" conclusion on the Audi and its
|  "sudden acceleration" theory.  Ed restated that they (60 MINUTES) stands
|  by its story that the Audi is a dangerous car and that "all those people"
|  couldn't have mistaken the gas pedal for the brake pedal.  He said that 
|  included a policeman and a brake inspection attendant.  
|
|  I guess if you stick to a lie often enough people will take it as the truth.
|
|  BTW, somethinh like this happened just last month at a local mall.  The
|  lady swears she was "standing" on the brake but the car just kept going
|  faster until she rammed into a gas meter next to a resturaunt and set
|  everything on fire.  But the car was a Honda, this time.
| 
|  TRAVIS

Something happened here too.  A driver ran her Volvo 740 50m across a parking
lot and up onto another car.  The Volvo ended up 45deg with it's tail in the
air.  She swears that there was something wrong with the brakes.  The more she
stepped on the brakes, the faster the car went.

The other common occurrance is of cars which crash thru multi-storey car park
barriers, and launch themselves into space.  In all cases, they were
automatics -- Honda & Toyota.  The drivers were either intoxicated or in one
case, necking (engine and air-con was on, accidentally went into gear, nailed
the brake, oops, gas, airborne)!

Lawrence

From: leonglaw@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com (Lawrence LEONG)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 00:51:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Organization: HP Singapore
Newsgroups: rec.autos

In rec.autos, bhjelle@carina.unm.edu () writes:

| In article <184751@pyramid.pyramid.com> lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) writes:
| >>
| >>
| >   And anyone who thinks the Japanese cars are big stuff obviously
| >   hasn't driven some of the 92 and 93 American cars yet.  
| >
| >   Of course I seriously doubt if we would HAVE the Taurus, Seville
| >   STS, or Mark VIII if it WEREN'T for the Japanese competition.  
| >
| So what has Detroit produced to compete with the Corolla, the Civic,
| and the Integra

Detroit competition for Corolla == Geo Prizm :-).  Civic and Integra, none.
Toyota competition for Holden Commodore == Toyoa Lexcen :-).  

It goes both ways.  More examples not brought in for sake of brevity

Lawrence
From: kallits@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: European Porsche 944S
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:28:55 GMT
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY


My parents are currently living in Germany.  My mother has a
1986 Porsche 944S with approx 12,000 miles (19,200Km).  It
is in mint condition with all options possible (ground-
effects, sunroof, heated/electric leather seats, etc,...).
She hates the idea of parting with her car when they move
back to the U.S. in August 1993.  She is curious about how
much that car is worth over here in the U.S..  She would have
to convert it from european specs to U.S. specs and have the
car shipped (total cost approx. $4000.00)

She is under the impression that the car will be worth alot in
the future, since Porsche will no longer make the 944 (she sold
a 1965 Mustang in 1972, and doesn't want to make that mistake
again).  She still hasn't decided on whether to sell it or bring
it to the U.S..

If anyone has any feelings on this subject (value of such a car),
please e-mail directly to me (I don't always read this newsgroup).

Thanks in advance,
Tim Kallio
 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mxm1003@s22.msi.umn.edu (Ram V. Mohan)
Subject: bumpy right side
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:44:12 GMT


Yesterday night when I was driving I felt the right side of my car
bumping up and down.  It is as if the right side is moving up and
down with thumping noises and is oscillating on its own.  Any 
symptoms of problems etc?.  The car in question is mazda 323
hatchback.  Thanks.


Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: dholt@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Dennis J. Holt)
Subject: Re: Removing decals from windows
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:27:45 GMT

Use a single-edge razor blade to remove unwanted window decals.  Works
fine every time as long as the blade is sharp.

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: jburney@hydra.nodc.noaa.gov (Jeff Burney)
Subject: Re: Will there be a 94 MR2???
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center - Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:50:11 GMT

dhukill@esprit.prime.com (Dave Hukill) writes:

>was not going to be produced after 199? (I don't remember the year). I thought
>it was the 1993 model year, but that's obviously not true. Anyone hear
>anything else?

According to several mags. and the Washington car show people, 1993
is the last year for the MR-2.  Mainly due to its sluggish sales;
only about 9500 units produced last year.

--
Jeff Burney
202-606-4570 jburney@argos.nodc.noaa.gov
Ocean Climate Lab
NOAA/National Oceanographic Data Center
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: koziarz@halibut.nosc.mil (Walter A. Koziarz)
Subject: Re: Tricks for cold weather?
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 02:54:33 GMT

In article <184858@pyramid.pyramid.com> lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) writes:
>In article <C0HvoE.CAp@tss.com> hanson@tss.com (Hanson Loo) writes:

>>What's the best trick you've seen for keeping 
>>locks from freezing in cold weather? I've 


>   WD-40 makes one of the best preventatives, its easy to spray and
>   it REMOVES water from the area.  However for a frozen lock, a
>   small syringe full of alcohol will clear all but the most frozen
>   locks.  Too bad carrying around a syringe of anything can get you
>   busted these days.

only the *second* part of this is useful -- about using alcohol...

*N*E*V*E*R* use 'WD-40' in a lock or any other similar mechanism... a neighbor
used to work for Perazzi U.S.A. (sole importer of Perazzi shotguns, located in
Rome, NY) and had to deal with owners that *thought* WD-40 was useful as a
lubricant for small mechanisms... wrong... WD-40 leaves behind a gummy, sticky,
nasty film.  CRC-556, on the other hand, does *not* leave a gummy residue and
*is* suitable for cleaning, lubricating and displacing water in fine
mechanisms.  keep the WD-40 for spraying lugnuts... and keep it *away* from
locks.  for locks, specifically, 'Lock-Ease' is the bet thing I've ever used...
powdered graphite suspended in a light, almost alcohol-like solvent/penetrant
that also de-ices *and* about the only thing that'l clean out the lock after
some boob puts WD-40 in it.



alt K.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mxu@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Mu-Liang Xu)
Subject: FAQ list wanted
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:30:19 GMT

Hi!  Can someone email me the FAQ list of this group?
or tell me where I should get it?

Thanks in advance!!
From: stecz@pencom.com (John Steczkowski)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Braking techniques
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:12:32 GMT
Reply-To: stecz@pencom.com
Organization: Pencom Software

In article <1993Jan5.173313.8981@mtu.edu> vetter@mtu.edu (STEVEN J. VETTER)  
writes:

>   I've read an awful lot from people who advocate and frequently use engine  
braking
>   as a means of slowing down.  Whereas I admit it is sometimes extremely  
useful, the 
>   idea of regularly downshifting in a stick to break seems completely  
ridiculous to me.
>   I'd much rather wear out my brake pads which are designed to be regularly  
replaced, than
>   my clutch which isn`t.  Can someone please explain to me why so many people  
insist on 
>   using their transmissions as brakes?

Who said you slip the clutch to engine brake? If you slip the clutch, you're  
doing it wrong.  You should match revs, i.e., when doing a 4 to 3 downshift,  
put the clutch in, rev the engine to match the engine rpms, and the tire rpms,  
release the clutch and then release the gas.  If the car jerks, you did it  
wrong.  It doesn't cause additional wear on the clutch (clutches only wear when  
slipping).


--
  John Steczkowski                        stecz@pencom.com
  "Achilles raised his spear, took careful aim, and hurled."
  					    from the Iliad
From: wbg@festival.ed.ac.uk (W Geake)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Why is US engine technology so retrograde?
Date: 12 Jan 93 12:48:58 GMT

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the penalty in reciprocating mass payable
with ohv designs as compared to sohc?  Isn't this relevant for
efficiency?  For whatever reason, the European/Japanese shift to ohc has
been accompanied by a vast improvement in power and economy.  Example:

My sister's 1300cc 1980 ohv Ford: 32mpg (UK gals) cross-country; 55 bhp
@ 5500rpm or so.

My 1300cc 1986 Vauxhall (GM): 44 mpg (UK gals) cross-country; 75 bhp @
6000 rpm.

Neither revs especially fast, or has much in the way of fancy
carburation.  True, aerodynamics are different, but the conclusion that
the ohc engine is better is difficult to avoid.  I know this is a tiny
sample, but it is representative.  Note also that Rover (in a previous
incarnation as Austin-Rover) had to work lots of tricks to get 75 bhp
from 1300cc in the MG Metro (ohv).  I rest my case.

The statement about a big lazy V6 being just right for a trip to the
shops with the kids makes European blood boil.  That's an awful lot of
surplus mass to cart around for the sake of smoothness or longevity. 
How many people keep the car until the engine is really shot (I mean
average people; not you great folks out there in net land)?

Why has US engine technology been so backward (at least for sale to the
public)?

a) your fuel is too cheap now, and has been for years.  Get that deficit
down and reduce CO2 emissions with a nice hefty tax (3$/gal would be
about right in European eyes).

b) not enough competition in the US market from Jap/Euro makers.  Is it
just me, or are an awful lot of posting to do with Japanese cars - ie
more than might be expected for their market penetration? (America's Top
Brains buying Imports?)

c) speed limits too low for fun (revvy) driving.

d) The historically insulting attitude of "Put some more chrome (or
electric goodies or whatever) on for the new model - the old V8 motor
will do."

Thankfully, this appears to be changing.  In anticipation of a good Euro
vs US flame, Bill @ Edinburgh signs off.
From: mcostell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Malcolm G. Costello)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: dodge shadow - fuel problem
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:59:45 GMT
Reply-To: mcostell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Malcolm G. Costello)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.autos, gallaghe@gdc.com (Robert Gallagher) writes:
xI have a dodge shadow 89 with a 2.5 liter tubro.  Recently the fuel pumper was
xreplaced, the pump was not functioning.  Now every time the fuel level gets to
xa quarter tank or less I get massive hesitation.  The engine will stall.  When
xI fill it up again it runs as usual. The garage that did the work cant find the
xproblem.  I do not feel it is the new pump or the pressure regulator.  My
xthought is that there is dirt or sludge blocking the input to the fuel
xreserve tank located in the gas tank itself.
x
xAlso, I have checked the obvious, the fuel is working correctly.
x
xAny other thoughts on this problem would be greatly appreciated.

When it starts acting up try this. Just take off the gas cap and
put it back. Do you hear pressure release? Does it run better?
If so the vapor return system needs servicing. Its creating a vacuum
in the tank as the fuel is consumed and not letting air in to balance
it. The vacuum fights against the fuel pump.
By taking off the cap when you fill up you're "fixing" the problem.
The vapor cannister sometimes gets messed up if you're in the habit
of overfilling the tank. When the automatic nozzle cuts off, don't
try to squeeze in more gas.
x

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mack Costello <mcostell@oasys.dt.navy.mil> Code 65.1 (formerly 1720.1)
David Taylor Model Basin, Carderock Division Hq. NSWC    ___/-\____
Bethesda, MD 20084-5000   Phone (301) 227-2431          (__________>|

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: daveb@Ingres.COM (Dave Brower, DBMS hack, [510] 748-3418)
Subject: Comments on Sentra SE-R and Civic EX sought...
Originator: daveb@lotus
Reply-To: daveb@lotus.ingres.com (Dave Brower, DBMS hack, [510] 748-3418)
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company
Distribution: na
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:32:53 GMT

I'm contemplating getting an SE-R or a 125hp Civic EX coupe to replace my
aging Mustang.  If you have opinions/experience, please let me know.
And if you're not ashamed, I'd like to hear what experiences you had
negotiating prices and what you paid.

I'd love a new RX-7, but the tariff's too steep :-(.

It's econobox city for me now, and I want to enjoy it: Are SE-Rs
competitive in their SCCA autocross class?  Do current rev Civics
still own their class?  Are they both in the same class?

thanks,
-dB

-- 
Windows/NT - the VMS of the 90s

Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech
From: Veeramany.Sthanumurthy@launchpad.unc.edu (Veeramany Sthanumurthy)
Subject: Toyota Celica Oil light problem
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:08:26 GMT

[I apologize if this is not the right place for this question]

I have a problem with an '84 Toyota Celica ST which no mechanic
seems to be able to fix. (Maybe click and clack?) The oil light
comes on after driving for about 20 minutes when the RPM drops 
below 750-800. 

Increasing the RPM above 800 solves the problem,
but since I have a stick shift this is quite annoying. And,
I wonder if this is indicative of some major problem. (There
is enough oil in the engine.)

Anybody had this happen to them? Thanks for any help.

Sthan.
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:47:50 GMT


>Biased reporting damned the Samurai.

They teste other 4x4's in the same article. Did those vechiles
magically not tip over when they should have?

john
-- 
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __	
jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
Newsgroups: rec.autos