HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: loon@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (LOON M J)
Subject: Anthems (was Re: unity and other myths)
Organization: Wits Electrical Engineering (Undergrads).
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 13:40:50 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.202136.26515@cs.wisc.edu> rcmolden@parmesan.cs.wisc.edu (Robertc. Moldenhauer) writes:

>I, for one, have never seen the words for Die Stem or Nkosi Sikeleli i'Africa
>in English.  Maybe someone could post an English translation of the two songs
>and we could judge for our selves wether either or both of them are exclusive.


Good idea. I'll try get  copies. What I can tell you is that Nkosi is pretty 
apolitical, whereas Die Stem emphasises the Great Trek (a historical journey 
the Afrikaner holds dear to his heart). This does indicate Nkosi (being 
apolitical) is more tolerable, however, there is so much political 
implications on the anthem/prayer that its become something like a black 
anthem. 

And to all you others, unity is possible, and probable. Watch!

--
Marc Loon <loon@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za>
Student No: 8807871/X
Elec Eng. University of the Witwatersrand
Johannesburg

Conversation: a voice competition between two people
in which the one taking a breath is called the listener.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,apc.reg.safrica,sanet.talk.politics
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Subject: Campus Fascists
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 16:39:42 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Freedom of speech at South African universities has long been
under fire. In most cases, it's all but disappeared, except
on the net. 

Debates involving outside speakers have continually been disrupted,
violently, with speakers often fearing for their lives. The culprits
have uniformly been ANC aligned students.

At UCT this Wednesday 2 September, a debate involving the SAIRR,
the HRC, CASE and Inkatha was disrupted by the ANC aligned
SASCO - South African Students Congress. It could not take place
due to raucous chanting and singing, pounding of desks, and so on.
It was called off. 

The students objected to the inclusion of Inkatha in the debate.
They stated categorically that Inkatha would not be allowed to 
speak on campus. This broke an agreement between UCT admin and SASCO
that the debate would take place once SASCO had "stated their objection
to it".

Hardly surprising, it's been happening for years here, rather more
violently. It gives a good indication of the democratic credentials
of the ANC and its followers.

Last year UCT was brought to a standstill by a workers strike in which
barricades were erected, people assaulted, lectures violently disrupted
and so, by a coalition of a trade union and some students from the ANC
camp. The same students were involved today. At the time, this was 
PUBLICALLY SUPPORTED by the Western Cape branch of the ANC.

This throws interesting light on the controversy surrounding the
violence between the ANC and Inkatha. Here is a clearcut case of the
ANC and its motley following initiating violence. And it *is* violence,
similar to rape.

Gavan Tredoux
Dept Math / Dept Philosophy
UCT

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mpthirus)
Subject: UPI: Mass arrests in Malawi for political opposition, says amnesty intl
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:58:24 GMT



	LONDON (UPI) -- The Malawi government has arrested hundreds of people
for dissent in the last four months, and many remain detained without
charge in the East African nation, Amnesty International said Thursday.
	The London-based human rights organization said that after a surge of
opposition activity, police in May began to raid the homes and offices
of supporters of a multi-party movement in the one-party state.
	``At least dozens and possibly hundreds'' of people were arrested in
the raids, the report said.
	``Often the reason for their detention is simply that they work in an
office where opposition leaflets are believed to have been photocopied,
or are active members of church congregations where the government's
human rights record has been criticized,'' the group said.
	Some of those detained had been tortured, Amnesty said in the report
entitled: ``Malawi, March-July 1992: mass arrests of suspected
government opponents.''
	``One woman was stripped naked, beaten and poked with an electric
cattle prod,'' the report said.
	``One prisoner recently released from Chichiri Prison reports that in
his cell, measuring roughly 15 feet by 12 feet, there were 285
prisoners. On average one prisoner died in each cell every two nights,
he estimated. Whenever a prisoner died he was immediately replaced so
that the number remained constant at 285,'' the report said, suggesting
that crowding was being used as a deliberate form of ill-treatment.
	Those arrested for opposition activities include office workers,
members of religious groups, students, and trade unionists, the group
said.
	Malawi is headed by President-for-Life Dr. H. Kamuzu Banda, who metes
out severe penalties to anti-government activists.
	In March, the country's Roman Catholic Bishops issued a pastoral
letter criticizing the government's human rights record and calling for
democracy. Sixteen thousand copies were printed and read out in churches
across the country.
	The government declared the letter seditious and deemed it an offense
to possess a copy. Ruling party leaders publicly threatened the bishops
with execution, and the printing office was firebombed.
	Cabinet Ministers and senior party officials held a public meeting
about the letter, broadcast live to the nation, during which some
participants advocated that the bishops involved be killed.
	Among them was Mai Manjankosi, a senior official of the party Women's
League, who said Banda was ``the Son of God, just like Jesus.''
	Banda himself had earlier said political opponents would be ``meat
for crocodiles.''
	Amnesty said the Malawi government had taken some steps to improve
respect for human rights with possibly more than 60 political detainees
released this year, but that it was undermined by the continuing
arrests.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Date: 30 Aug 92 20:16:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: uctvax.1992Aug30.181623.202581
Organization: University of Cape Town


Olufemi G Anthony writes:

> In article <1992Aug26.120033.202521@uctvax.uct.ac.za> 
> hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>
>>
>> [Stuff deleted]
>>
> 
> Another idiotic posting from UCT as usual. It makes one wonder what
> kinds of people are in S.Africa's white universities when this
> supposedly "integrated" university has people with such mindsets.

Well, at least you wonder about something, Wormtongue!

Hardy 

 
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics,apc.reg.safrica
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Subject: Figures on Violence - Controversy Grows
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 16:49:39 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

The South African Institute of Race Relations is about to release
a damning indictment of coverage of violence in South Africa
by organizations like the (self-dubbed) "Human Rights Comission",
the "International Comission of Jurists", who visited recently
and delivered a report on violence, and the "Community Agency for
Social Enquiry".

The report, by Dr Anthea Jeffery, a SAIRR researcher, finds consistent
bias, shoddy methodology, reporting of unsubstantiated rumours, 
omission of significant categories of violence, misclassification
of incidents, and more. Moreover it turns out that the ICJ were
invited and SELECTED by the HRC, and that they didn't even CONSULT
or question the SAIRR on violence figures. Telling. The figures from
CASE, used by Mandela at the UN, are sharply criticised.

It's due on Monday of next week (7th September). Get your copy soon.

A debate at UCT in which the SAIRR were to have presented this analysis
was disrupted by ANC aligned students and had to be cancelled. See my
posting on this elsewhere in this group, and others.

Gavan Tredoux
Dept Math / Dept Philosophy
UCT

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst)
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 22:22:29 GMT


>In article <1992Aug26.120033.202521@uctvax.uct.ac.za> hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>>According to the newspaper this morning, Nkosi Sikelel i'Afrika will be sung at
>>the soccer game between South Africa and Zambia on Sunday - I don't hear too
>>many people expressing outrage at the insensitivity of singing a song which
>>alienates a large section of South Africa's white population. Double standards
>>perhaps (eh Scott)? Personally I think its cool, they can sing what they like.
>>


The problem with your understanding of liberalism is that just because there
are two views of the a particular issue, both views are not necessarily of equal validity.
Someone having the right to say (or sing something) does not mean that they
should be encouraged to do so.

Crude example 1: A says the world is flat. B says the world is an oblate spheroid.
The views of A and B are not equally valid, and there's no double standard in
my criticising A.

If you see Die Stem and Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika (NSA) as being the same, it says a lot
about your politics. I see them in completely different ways. They have different
histories and different symbolisms. One is a symbol of oppression; one of
resistance to oppression. By singing Die Stem, those whites were reaffirming
their emotional history and denying the evils that had been done to blacks in
their name.

As for singing NSA at the soccer, I have absolutely no problem and would quite
happily have sung it myself. 

We seem to be going through the same arguments we have gone through before in
other tread. Your fundamental problem is that you cannot see the need for
whites to make gestures of reconciliation and acts of reparation for their
to be peace in our country. Your arguments are as crude as the "all whites
are bad, all blacks are good" arguments we have seen here before. They show
a fundamental lack of any feeling for the history of South Africa, or the sufferings
of the country.
From: rcmolden@parmesan.cs.wisc.edu (Robertc. Moldenhauer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:21:36 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.


I, for one, have never seen the words for Die Stem or Nkosi Sikeleli i'Africa
in English.  Maybe someone could post an English translation of the two songs
and we could judge for our selves wether either or both of them are exclusive.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: barnhart@gagme.chi.il.us (Mr Aaron Barnhart)
Subject: IPS: SURINAME: WEAPONS SURRENDER RATE FA
Originator: barnhart@gagme
Organization: Evanston, Illinois
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 20:29:01 GMT

Reference: Disarmament & Peace
Title: SURINAME: WEAPONS SURRENDER RATE FAILS TO MEET EXPECTATIONS


paramaribo, aug 27 (ips/sna) -- as the disarmament of several
groups of insurgents continues, no more than 80 weapons have
been surrendered to officers from the brazilian and guyanese
armies and to civilian representatives of the organisation of
american states (oas) which is supervising the disarmament.

the jungle commandos, a group of maroons (descendants of
runaway slaves) who rebelled in 1986, were expected to turn in
the bulk of their arms on monday. anstead the group handed over
14 weapons.

jungle commando leader ronnie brunswijk, said this week that
his group lost 48 of its best weapons when he was arrested by
army commander desi bouterse here in macch 1990. at that time,
brunswijk was conducting peace talks with the government of the
day.

the former rebel told reporters at the scene of the
disarmament that many other weapons were lost during fighting
between his forces and the national army, while others were
confiscated by french military.

other rebel leaders claimed on the weekend, when the
disarmament process began, that they had kept up their end of
the bargain and had turned in their arms. thzy called on the
government to do the same and work towards developing the
hinterland and its people.

despite the dismal rate of weapons return, oas special envoy
edgardo reis says he is satisfied with the proceedings.

a peace treaty signed between the government of president
ronald venetiaan and the insurgents on aug. 8 stipulated that
the rebels should disarm. in return they would be granted
amnesty and some seven million u.s. dollars would be spent to
improve conditions in the interior of this south american
republic, where they live.

but last week, one diplomatic source told ips that it was
doubtful that the rebels would disarm given the surinamese
army's hostility to the terms of the peace treaty.

the military, which formed the government between 1980 and
1991 is still very powerful in the country's political life and
it has made it known that it is unhappy with the treaty.

another group, human rights lobby moiwana 86, is also upset
by the termf of the peace treaty. the group says that under the
terms human rights abuses conducted by the rebel factions during
the war will go unpunished.

the group challenged the validity of the amnesty in court and
lost. it has since filed an appeal. (end/ips/sna/bw/92)


-- 
Mr. Aaron Barnhart@gagme.chi.il.us -- posting from Evanston, Illinois
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (kauta)
Subject: Re: African Cry Babies and Hypocrites
Organization: Indiana University, Department of Mathematics.
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:24:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.185413.12648@vuse.vanderbilt.edu> gilford@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Gilford T. Hapanyengwi) writes:
>

>	To think that the situation in Somalia has been going on for
>such a long time and all the so called leaders have just been sitting
>on their behinds thinking about their next Swiss bank account is to
>say the least baffling, confusing, frustrating, down-right murder...

Shamwari! They really don't have all that money in the Swiss accounts..
If the statement below is anything to go by, that is. 

Forwarded from misc.activism.progressive..:

From CULTURAL SURVIVAL QUARTERLY:

"I would be lying if I said I do not have a bank account in Europe; I do.  
I would also be lying if I said I do not have considerable money in my 
account; I do.  However, I would estimate it to total less that $50
million.  What is that after 22 years as Head of State of such a big 
country? ---- President Mobutu, Zaire March 7, 1988.  Africa News October
7, 1991.  [quoted from Cultural Survival Quarterly, Fall 1991, page 61]

End of forwarded message.

[The name of the one who posted this on m.a.p. deleted].

Question to lawyers: Is it illegal on the net to wish a quick death to Mabuto?
                     Say he catches AIDS?

-- 
Internet: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu     PEACE WITHOUT JUSTICE IS LIKE
Bitnet:   kautaj@iubacs.bitnet                   SEX WITHOUT A CONDOM 
Uucp:     kautaj@iubacs.uucp                       - A TIME BOMB ------me
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics
From: pieter@ford.ee.up.ac.za (Pieter Vermeulen)
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:48:37 GMT
Organization: University of Pretoria, South Africa

lucio@phyrql.ALT.ZA (Lucio de Re) writes:

>I like our informed commentators. Do you, Hardy, feel alienated by a prayer
>that pleads with God to bless Africa? Even the atheist in me has little to
>groan about that. The racist in you, however, may well feel slighted that
etc..

I don't know why, but I'm reminded of that scene in A CLockwork Orange
where the main character has visions of having fun killing people
while he is reading the Bible.... It is not about the song itself.

My opinion is that Nkosi Sikilel i'Afrika just sounds a great deal better.

Pieter Vermeulen


Newsgroups: sanet.talk.politics,soc.culture.african
From: frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N)
Subject: Re: Freedom of Expression
Organization: Wits Electrical Engineering (Undergrads).
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 08:34:21 GMT

In article <g91h7029.715502068@alpha.ru.ac.za> g91h7029@alpha.ru.ac.za (Wayne Humphries) writes:


> ....
> The black is tribal and in his heart understands only the idea of tribal 
> chief and witchdoctor.
> ....

Probably one of the more racist comments I've seen in this group. 


--
David Frank       <frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za>
University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg
From: llk@kepler.unh.edu (Local Genius)
Subject: Re: NCR:Using Peacenet to help Somalia
Organization: Department of Mathematics
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 17:36:19 GMT

In article <1471700099@igc.apc.org> Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>Well, this is by far the nicest thing anybody ever said about me, and I
>will be ever grateful for these kind encouraging words.
>
>Of course none of my posts would have been worth zip if it had not
>been for the smart, kind, energetic responsible people of peacenet and
>their allies, the "fearless famine fighters" of Internet.  Actually, when
>I first got on IGC waving my arms about Somalia, I was in the middle
>of a bunch of messages about solar box cookers.  Kind people took my hand,
>guided me to the right conferences, forwarded my posts, emailed encouragement,
>research and advice.  And then, of course, they faxed and phoned and
>uploaded appeals and all sorts of help.
>
>Did anybody else feel that stuff turned a corner when Bernhard Helander
>set up that free fax program and we apparently overloaded the state dept.
>fax machine with appeals for Somalia?       Personally, I think the online
>forces of peace justice and the "native American way" have scored some kind
>of victory here, and there's something we can hold onto for the future.  

AMEN!

>
>I also think it might be good if my particular name and personality could
>get detached from this enormous project and we could form some kind of
>adhoc group like "humanity for Somalia."  I have felt kind of uneasy being
>a "one-woman band" but haven't known quite how to make the jump to something
>else.  All the progress made has depended on the willingness of peacent
>and Internet people to spend their time, money and energy helping others, and
>my name shouldn't be attached to everybody else's work.

But Dorothy, you persisted in sending those messages when very few people 
seemed to care about what was happening in Somalia. Keep up the good work!

>
>(For example, one woman requested the fax action list and then by return 
>email she said she had sent a fax to everybody on it!  Pretty cool.)
>
From: hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:13:28 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

Tony Putman writes:

> femibyte@athena.mit.edu (Olufemi G Anthony) writes:
> 
>>In article <1992Aug26.120033.202521@uctvax.uct.ac.za>
>>  hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>>> [deleted]
>>
>>Another idiotic posting from UCT as usual. It makes one wonder what
>>kinds of people are in S.Africa's white universities when this
>>supposedly "integrated" university has people with such mindsets.
> 
> I'd really rather you wrote "Another idiotic posting from Hulley as usual."

Awww...what's up doc?

> I'm afraid all kinds of people are in S.Africa's universities (same as
> elsewhere), but a couple of the more dismal sort enjoy posting long diatribes
> to s.c.a.  I suggest you do what most of us do - ignore them or put them
> in your kill file.  A few brave souls have tried to open discussion with
> them, but they are more interested in scoring points than conversing.

You nasty cruel brute....now you've gone and hurt my feelings! How can you say
I'm not amenable to discussion? I posted the original article in this thread, 
and all I've seen is silly raving abouts idiots at UCT. Now although I do find 
this ever so amusing, you're quite welcome to tackle my article along more 
rational grounds, and I'll be ever so nice and discuss it with you.

Hardy
From: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: ZIMBABWE: SOUTH AFRICAN SOCCER FAIL
Date: 25 Aug 92 15:12:00 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7101/22.5 - Novell User Group, Pretoria RSA

On <24 Aug 1992 21:07> Aaron Barnhart (5:7104/2) said to All :

 AB>soccer is one of the many evidences of the sharp-edged
 AB>boundaries still dividing zimbabwean society, between the rich
 AB>white minority and a largely impoverished black population.
 AB>
 AB>whites play cricket, rugby and dominate the few sports
 AB>facilities available in zimbabwe. they are the zimbabweans who
 AB>go to the olympics, but they don't go to football stadiums, they
 AB>do not participate in the country's passions, soccer among 
 AB>them.
 AB>
 AB>just a handful of whites were at the national stadium to
 AB>support the zimbabwean team and the victory celebrations after
 AB>the game on the streets of harare were watched with obvious
 AB>indifference, if not comtempt, by stony-faced white zimbabweans
 AB>from the closed windows of their cars.

And the same is true of South Africa itself. Last month we went to the first 
international club matches that South African clubs had participated in for 30 
years - Orlando Pirates (South African) vs Mbabane Highlanders (Swaziland - 
the South African team won) and Kaizer Chiefs (South African) versus Crystal 
Palace (English - the visitors won). There were very few whites among the 
specators, and about half of them were supporters of Crystal Palace. 

= Steve



--  
INTERNET: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
via:  THE CATALYST BBS in Port Elizabeth, South Africa.
       (catpe.alt.za)   +27-41-34-1122 HST or +27-41-34-2859, V32bis & HST.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics,apc.reg.safrica
From: shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst)
Subject: Re: The ANC and the SACP
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 23:13:34 GMT

vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mpthirus) writes:
>mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>>country's composition.  The ANC... has more Jews than than the AWB and die
>
>Used to. Many Jews that in the old days supported the goals of the ANC
>are now very much opposed to the ANC, due to its tactics of fomenting
>violence.  Many of the Jewish community even rail at the mention of
>Nadine Gordimer, these days.

(As in all communities) there are some very reactionary people in 
the Jewish community, but I'm still willing to bet there are more
Jews in the ANC than in the AWB. I don't think that Nadine Gordimer
is such a bogey -- that's what Joe Slovo's for.

Scott
From: dcollins@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (david collins)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: AID FOR SOMALIA
Date: 30 Aug 92 22:07:57 GMT
Reply-To: dcollins@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (david collins)
Distribution: usa
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: dcollins@thumper.cc.utexas.edu

I recall that there has been some discussion of Aid for Somalia on the net
and I would appreciate it if someone could send me the US addresses and 
telephone numbers of the various organisations collecting donations for 
Somalia. Could someone also send me the details of the campaign to phone
and fax the UN secretary-general.

Thanks
David Collins
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics