From: zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Rich men and Heaven
Date: 28 Sep 92 15:19:49 GMT
Reply-To: zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va

In article <68990@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>In article <ksand-220992181713@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>|In article <68617@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
>|Pitts) wrote:
>|> In article <ksand-160992122748@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>|> >Yes, this was 2000 years ago, and the first original Christian church
>|> >had a huge crisis when the supposed final days never appeared. In other
>|> >words a lot of followers who waited for Jesus to arrive just left the
>|> >church. Christianity needed a lot of good talent concerning creating
>|> >new doctrines in order to survive the first huge problem of Jesus
>|> >never appearing.
>|> 
>|> Here Kent seems to have forgotten that Jesus knew the Kingdom of God wasn't
>|> going to take place immediately.   NOTE TO THIS HAPPENED AFTER THE events
>|> Kent may elude to in the parallel accounts of Luke 9 and Matthew 16-17.
>|> (See below.)
>|
>|Check out any instances of what Jesus says about when the Kingdom of
>|God will happen, or in his very own words:
>|[Kent's verses deleted.]
>|OK, that was a small sample of what Jesus thought about when Kingdom of 
>|God will happen. Soon, or what? If not, what did Jesus say wrong?
>
>Kent you ignored my citing from Luke 19 of Jesus telling a parable, for 
>he realized the people thought that the kingdom was about to take place
>at once.  The parable told of a man leaving and being made king and then 
>coming back. 
>
>Here is the intro:
>
>    Luke 19:12   He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to
>       have himself appointed king and then to return.
>    Luke 19:13   So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.
>       'Put this money to work,' he said, 'UNTIL I COME BACK.'
>
>He is coming back, but this has not happened, yet.

So you're telling us that these four words buried in a parable undo all
of the things that Jesus clearly and explicitly stated about his second
comming?  Can you tell me where I can get my secret Jesus decoder ring
so I too can undo anything Jesus said using other unrelated parts of
the Bible!  I'm sorry, but this parable IN NO WAY disputes Jesus saying
he will return in the lifetime of some who knew him.

Jesus clearly LIED!  Your attempt to use an unrelated parable to tell
us what Jesus REALLY meant to say is obvious desperation!  If Jesus
were really a God, it would also be sacrilegious to deny the things he
said clearly and on several occasions. So, it's fortunate for you Jesus
is not God!  I don't have Kent's list, but I'm including my own list,
just to demonstrate the number of verses you have to try to undo:

MAT 3:2  [John the Baptist:] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of
heaven is at hand.

MAT 10:7  And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

MAT 10:15  Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the
land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
[What sense is it to particularly punish a city that probably no longer
exists or at least no longer contains the Jewish inhabitants (nor even
their descendents) who rejected the word?]

MAT 10:23  But when they persecute you in this city flee ye into
another:  for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over all
the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

MAT 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.

MAT 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till
all these things be fulfilled.

MARK 1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is
at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

MARK 6:11  And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye
depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony
against them.  Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for
Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

MARK 9:1  And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be
some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they
have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

MARK 13:30  Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass,
till all these things be done.

LUKE 9:27  But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which
shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

LUKE 21:32  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, 
till all be fulfilled.

ROM 13:12  The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore
cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

PHIL 4:5  Let your moderation be known unto all men.  The Lord is at
hand.

HEB 10:25  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the
manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as
ye see the day approaching.

HEB 10:37  For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come,
AND WILL NOT TARRY.

JAMES 5:8  Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of
the Lord draweth nigh.

I PETER 4:7  But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore
sober, and watch unto prayer.

I JOHN 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard
that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists;
whereby we know that it is the last time.

REV 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of
this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therin: for the
time is at hand.

REV 3:11; 22:7,12,20: "I come quickly"



-- Steve