HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: olson@anchor.esd.sgi.com (Dave Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
Subject: Re: Parallel port pin-out
Keywords: parallel port
Date: 19 Aug 92 04:42:07 GMT
Distribution: comp.sys.sgi
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA

In <1992Aug18.214333.191@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> hshamans@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Harry T Shamansky) writes:

| Last posting (tonight =>)
| 
| There seems to be a bug (omission) in the man pages on the parallel port (plp).
| Note that it appears that page 2 is missing, and I think that has the
| details which relate to my Indigo.  

In which release, and in hardcopy or online?  As far as I know,
it has always all been there, although there was a bug with
the way tbl split things over pages so it didn't look all that
pretty for a while.

| I have an older Seiko color printer from an old 4D host, and the cable 
| (centronics to DB37) is unusable. I need a centronics to DB25, but I can
| also quickly make up a cable with ribbon connectors. Anyone know what pin-outs
| are needed?

Here is the section from the 4.0.5 man page:

ELECTRICAL INTERFACE
			      _______________________
			      |____PARALLEL_PORT_____|
			      |	PIN  |	  SIGNAL     |
			      |______|_______________|
			      |	 1   |	    STB	     |
			      |	 2   |	   DATA1     |
			      |	 3   |	   DATA2     |
			      |	 4   |	   DATA3     |
			      |	 5   |	   DATA4     |
			      |	 6   |	   DATA5     |
			      |	 7   |	   DATA6     |
			      |	 8   |	   DATA7     |
			      |	 9   |	   DATA8     |
			      |	10   |	    ACK	     |
			      |	11   |	   BUSY	     |
			      |	12   |	    PE	     |
			      |	13   |	  ONLINE     |
			      |	14   |	   PR/SC     |
			      |	15   |	  NOPAPER    |
			      |	16   |	   N.C.	     |
			      |	17   |	   NOINK     |
			      |	18   |	   N.C.	     |
			      |19-30 | Signal Ground |
			      |	31   |	   RESET     |
			      |32-36_|_____N.C.______|
			      |______________________|
--
Let no one tell me that silence gives consent,  |   Dave Olson
because whoever is silent dissents.             |   Silicon Graphics, Inc.
    Maria Isabel Barreno                        |   olson@sgi.com
From: pegi@iouhugs.csd.sgi.com (Pegi Reding-Jasmin)
Newsgroups: sgi.general,sgi.training,comp.sys.sgi
Subject: Parallel Programming Class Openings
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:36:50 GMT
Reply-To: pegi@iouhugs.csd.sgi.com (Pegi Reding-Jasmin)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA, USA



Openings are currently available for the Sept 28, 1992, Parallel Programming
class at SGI's Eastern Education Center in Bethesda, Maryland (a suburb
of Wash., DC)


Topics Covered:

Parallel Architecture Overview
Parallel Programming Concepts
Profiling Code
Using Power C and Power Fortran
Using the Multiprocessor Library
Data and Function Partitioning
Shared Memory
Multiprocess Synchronization
Debugging Multiprocessed Code

The class is 4 1/2 days in duration, and costs $1750.00.

************************************************************************
**********
Make this the first class of your "Unlimited Training" available through SGI's 
NEW Season Pass Program.
************************************************************************
***********

Please call 800-800-4744 (connect to Customer Education Department)
to register or for more information.




Pegi Jasmin
SGI Training
E-mail: pegi@csd.sgi.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
From: gaarder@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Steve Gaarder)
Subject: Serial port on 4D/220 drops characters at high speed
Organization: AC Technology
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:33:34 GMT

We have a 4D/220S connected to a couple of telebit modems.  I have
noticed, at least with Kermit, that at 19200 baud incoming characters
seem to get lost, even though we are running full duplex hardware flow
control.  Any suggestions?

Thanks,

-- 
Steven Gaarder                              Network & Systems Adminstrator
gaarder@tc.cornell.edu                     AC Technology, Ithaca, N.Y. USA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
From: loew1@seas.gwu.edu (Murray Loew)
Subject: GL-Motif problem
Originator: loew1@seas.gwu.edu
Organization: George Washington University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 20:47:58 GMT

Hi everyone,

We recently upgraded from 4.0 to 4.0.4 and one of my mixed GL-motif 
programs doesn't work anymore, it coredumps on the second redraw 
(or resize). The code that follows should reproduce the problem. It 
runs fine if the calls to pixmode are left out. Am I missing
something here ? Any help before I call for assistance would be greatly
appreciated. If you prefer email to 

loew1@seas.gwu.edu or
max@vision.seas.gwu.edu

Thank you

max karasso

System: 4D320GTXB with hinv

2 33 MHZ IP7 Processors
FPU: MIPS R2010A/R3010 VLSI Floating Point Chip Revision: 2.0
CPU: MIPS R2000A/R3000 Processor Chip Revision: 2.0
On-board serial ports: 2 per CPU board
Data cache size: 64 Kbytes
Instruction cache size: 64 Kbytes
Secondary data cache size: 256 Kbytes
Main memory size: 32 Mbytes
I/O board, slot F: IO2 revision 2
Integral Ethernet: et0
GT Graphics option installed
Tape drive: unit 7 on SCSI controller 0: QIC 150
Disk drive: unit 1 on SCSI controller 0
Integral SCSI controller 0: Version WD33C93

/* test.c : Draw a black square in a GlxMDraw widget. If calls to
 pixmode are left out runs fine. Else coredumps on second redraw
 or resize */

#include<X11/Intrinsic.h>
#include<X11/StringDefs.h>

#include<Xm/Xm.h>
#include<X11/Xirisw/GlxMDraw.h>
#include<gl/gl.h>

#define BASE 256
#define ASIZE 512

GLXconfig db_rgb[]={
{GLX_NORMAL,GLX_COLORMAP,TRUE},
{0,0,0}
};

unsigned long dum[ASIZE*ASIZE];
void exposeCB(Widget, Display *, GlxDrawCallbackStruct *);
void redraw(void);

main(int argc,char **argv)
{
  XtAppContext app;
  Widget toplevel,glw;
  Display *dpy;
  Arg args[10];
  int n;
  XtToolkitInitialize();
  app=XtCreateApplicationContext();
  dpy=XtOpenDisplay(app,"",argv[0],"Xim",NULL,0,&argc,argv);
 
  toplevel=XtAppCreateShell(argv[0],"Test",
                            applicationShellWidgetClass,
                            dpy,NULL,0);
  n=0; 
  XtSetArg(args[n], XtNwidth, ASIZE); n++;
  XtSetArg(args[n], XtNheight, ASIZE); n++; 
  XtSetArg(args[n],GlxNglxConfig,db_rgb); n++;
  glw=XtCreateManagedWidget("glx",glxMDrawWidgetClass,toplevel,args,n);
  XtAddCallback(glw,GlxNexposeCallback,exposeCB,dpy);
  XtRealizeWidget(toplevel);
  XtAppMainLoop(app);
}


void exposeCB(Widget w,Display *dpy,GlxDrawCallbackStruct *call_data)
{
   GLXwinset(dpy,call_data->window);
   redraw(); 
}

void redraw(void)
{
  pixmode(PM_TTOB,(long)1); 
  pixmode(PM_ADD24,BASE);      /* offending calls */
  lrectwrite(0,0,511,511,dum); 
}


/* makefile: same problem if shared libraries are used */

OBJS= test.o
LIBS= -lXirisw -lXm -lXt -lgl_s -lX11 -lm 

CC= cc  

.c.o : $*.c
	$(CC) -c $*.c

test: $(OBJS)
	$(CC) -o test $(OBJS) $(LIBS)
From: hshamans@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Harry T Shamansky)
Subject: Parallel port pin-out
Keywords: parallel port 
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: comp.sys.sgi
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:43:33 GMT

Last posting (tonight =>)

There seems to be a bug (omission) in the man pages on the parallel port (plp).
Note that it appears that page 2 is missing, and I think that has the
details which relate to my Indigo.  

I have an older Seiko color printer from an old 4D host, and the cable 
(centronics to DB37) is unusable. I need a centronics to DB25, but I can
also quickly make up a cable with ribbon connectors. Anyone know what pin-outs
are needed?

thanks
  

  Harry


Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
From: cliff@shadow.phys.ucalgary.ca (Cliff Marcellus)
Subject: X11 tools for dumping 24-bit displays
Originator: cliff@shadow
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 18:57:14 GMT
Organization: Institute for Space Research


Hello All,

  Does anyone know of any tools ({xwd,xgrabsc}-like) that will dump 24-bit
  IRIS displays, preferably into PostScript?

  (I've tried using 'imgsnap', but the TIFF/FIT files aren't usable with
  tools such as 'pbm+' or 'xv' - bad TileWidths... }-8)

  Thanks in Advance

Cliff
-- 
Cliff Marcellus                       |  Internet : cliff@phys.ucalgary.ca
Department of Physics and Astronomy   |  SPAN     : CANCAL::CLIFF
The University of Calgary             |  Phone    : +1 403 220 7193
OPINIONS EXPRESSED WITHIN ARE MY OWN AND NOT THOSE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
From: davis@bedlam.asd.sgi.com (Tom Davis)
Subject: Re: Zip tab settings
Organization: sgi
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:13:38 GMT

In article <1171@deere.com>, jrh@de.deere.com (John R. Howell) writes:
|> I read in my documentation for zip that tab stops can be set at values
|> other than 8 using the .ziprc file.  However, that doesn't really change
|> the tab size, it still uses 8 character tabs, but will use spaces to
|> "fake" a different tab size.
|> 
|> I have files that get edited on other machines in addition to the sgi and
|> I use a tab size of 4.  However, no matter what I put in .ziprc, these
|> existing tabs will be displayed as 8 character stops.
|> 
|> Is this correct? Is there anyway around this?
|> 

There is a way around it.  In your .ziprc, include a line like this:

    hardtabsize 4

In this mode, zip will advance to the column of the next multiple of 4.
The tabsize entry in the .ziprc controls how far (in columns) the cursor
will advance with each press of the tab key, so if you only change the
hardtabsize to 4, pressing tab will still advance up to 8 positions (and
may insert 2 raw tabs into the file).  So if you set your hardtabsize to 4,
you'll probably want to set your tabsize to 4 as well.

|> Is there an option that says "whenever I hit the tab key, insert spaces
|> to pad to the next tab stop"?

There's a hack to do this.  Just set the hardtabsize to be enormous (say 10000000),
and zip will only insert a tab character when it needs to get to columns
10000000, 20000000, etc., which rarely occurs.  I suppose you could get nailed
in giant binary files ...

O.K.  Those are the technical details.  Now for the sermon.  In my experience,
hard tab sizes of anything other than 8 will cause you no end of trouble.  Too
many other programs "know" that tabs are 8 wide.  I used to think of all sorts
of horrible things that ought to be done to people who used non-8-wide tabs, but
in my kinder and gentler dotage, I merely think they should all be taken out and
shot.  The devil made me add hardtabsize to zip.

I have no objections to using spaces exclusively, however.

  -- Tom Davis

|> 
|> Thanks.
|> 
|> John
|> 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
From: vjs@rhyolite.wpd.sgi.com (Vernon Schryver)
Subject: Re: Tranquillity
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 21:40:18 GMT

In article <2566@news.cerf.net>, billabs@nic.cerf.net (Bill Romanowski) writes:
> >I am sure no unfriendly intent was involved and I hope no one is deeply
> >offended, but it would be better to put such things on one's own
> >machine in the future.  At least first check with postmaster or root at
> >the third party.
> >
> >It would be unfortunately and inconvenient for all of us if ~ftp/pub on
> >sgi.com had to stop being writable by people outside the SGI corporate
> >network.
> >
> >Vernon Schryver,  vjs@sgi.com
> >
>  deeply shamed, bill romanowski replies..
>  1) tq was commissioned by sgi as demo fun for the user community
>      so I thought sgi.com was a reasonable place to disperse it.
>  2) I thought pub was pub.
>  3) I'll crawl back under the rock I came from. Maybe I'll write
>      the more appropos game of Hostility.
>  4) Vernon needs to relax with a nice round of Tranquillity.
> 
> bill romanowski
> VP of remorse
> prairie research


Tranquility on the Internet became reckless a long time ago, when less
technically inclined people discovered the fun of messing up systems
used by others, when the ARPANET stopped being a secret, strange, and
uninteresting toy of computer nerds.  In the good old days, pub was
public.

Have you heard of the problems at many places where people have made
FTP pub directories into semi-secret dirty-gif-picture servers?  In
recent months the most popular question about anonymous FTP serving has
changed from "how do I set it up?" to "how do I make the pub safely
writable?".  As far as I can tell from what people say about such
problems, sgi.com is in now the minority in having a publically
writable ~ftp/pub.

I figure the main reason sgi.com has not suffered the gif-plague is
that the ~ftp/pub cleaning mechanism is so draconian that it's not
worth their trouble.  We also keep logs, off the machine.  And do
various other fundamentally hostile things.  Such is life in the big
city.

As I think I said, it's possible that we could work something out,
where the file would live in ~ftp/sgi or some such real place.  We'd
need a suitable README file, which would also need text giving us the
right to re-distribute it.  (Consider that angle--we wouldn't want your
evil twin to distribute something proprietary in ~fpt/pub and then have
you sue us for it.)  Someone inside SGI would need to sponsor it, to be
responsible in case it is a trojan horse that copies secrets to a
prairie somewhere.


I still hope you're not deeply offended.

vjs

Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
From: cclee@sfc.sony.com (C.C. Lee)
Subject: Source Codes Needed - Help!!
Keywords: n
Organization: Sony Advanced Video Technology Center
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:12:13 GMT


The source codes for "toyuv" and "fromyuv" are needed. 
"toyuv" converts an IRIS image to yuv format so it can 
be sent to an Abekas digital video frame store. 
"fromyuv" converts an digital video image in Abekas yuv format
into IRIS image file format. Any pointers are much appreciated.


C.C. Lee
Sony Corp. of America
cclee@sisrl.sony.com

-- 

Chuen-Chien Lee
Sony Intelligent Systems Research Lab.
685 River Oaks Parkway,
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi,comp.sys.mips,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.questions
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Grep-ing for Constants (Re: Assembler Syntax...)
Summary: How does one use the grep command for searches?
Keywords: recap of "EXPORT", grep, UTLB exception handler
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 06:08:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.103013.11536@leland.Stanford.EDU>
underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>Anyone know what the meaning of "EXPORT" might be?
>It appears frequently in the assembly source code of the SGI OS kernels.
>The term usually appears in the following context, for example:
>              EXPORT(alpha)
>Is "EXPORT" a declaration to make the address of "alpha" available
>to other modules in the source code?

First, I want to thank everyone who responded by private e-mail,
answering my question and politely explaining netiquette.  In the
future, I will post summaries of responses.

As for the responses to my question about "EXPORT", it is indeed
defined in asm.h as

     #define EXPORT(x)
            .globl x;

Returning to the main reason for the original question, I am trying to decipher
modified SGI OS source to do a software experiment, which requires
modification of the UTLB handler.  In the handler, there are some constants
which have symbolic labels that are defined else.  For example,
consider the following:

           #define VALUE_1   8888

In the past, when I needed to locate the actual value of a symbolic label
like VALUE_1, I could just do "grep VALUE_1 *.*", which would search
all files at my current level of the directory for a match with "VALUE_1".
Then, usually, the line "#define VALUE_1 8888" would appear.

Unfortunately, the code for the OS is distributed across multiple
directories.  Is there a way to use grep (or some other command)
to do the search across all files at my current level of the directory
_and_ subdirectories below the current level--all at once?
It is also important that the path name of the file with a match
appear so that I can find the file producing the match.

Please respond by e-mail.  I will produce a summary of any replies that I
receive.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
From: cunning@arthur.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com (Dave Cunningham)
Subject: Problem attaching Exabyte
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co.
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 15:55:46 GMT

I'm trying to attach an Exabyte 8200 to an 4D25, and having some
problems.  The Exabyte in question is not from sgi, but it was working
fine on an Iris a few months ago under Irix 3.3 (same cables,
termination, etc.).  When I attach it to my 4D25 running 4.0.3 I'm not
able to boot.  The drive shows up properly to the prom hinv, but
when I try to start the system it hangs up somewhere between

 "Starting the system..."
and 
 "Irix 4.0.3..."

I can load sash with no problems, boot ide from there, and even boot
unix with -n and get indications that it loads;  it just won't run.

I am aware of the diagnotic mismatch between early P.I. proms and
the exabyte-  I either ignore the message or set bootmode to C.
The Exabyte has 425A (I think... can't check right now) firmware, and
works fine on both a DecStation and a Sun.  Another non-sgi Exabyte (251N)
works fine on the 4D25.  The mx board switches are set 1-4 on, 5-6 off, as
per a Dave Olsen posting long ago.  Any suggestions as to where to go from
here ?

-- 
#include  <standard_disclaimer.h>

Dave Cunningham				cunning@arthur.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com
Lockheed Missiles and Space Co.		O/81-10, B/157-5E, (408)-756-1382
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)
Subject: Re: CDC Drive Parameters
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 05:53:43 GMT

In article <ooj77q8@zuni.esd.sgi.com>, olson@anchor.esd.sgi.com (Dave Olson) writes:
> In <1992Aug19.011509.7427@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> cunning@arthur.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com (Dave Cunningham) writes:
> 
> | My in-company computer repair folks replaced my failing 380 Mb system
> | disk on a 4D20 with with a similar one last used on a sun.  It's the
> | same model (CDC 94171-9) but with a different firmware rev. (0045).
> | I formatted it with stand alone fx, using the "auto" command.  That
> | went ok, but I notice that some of the drive parameters are different
> | than on my SGI CDC 380s- specifically,  "Report recovered errors" is 
> | enabled, "Auto bad block realloc. on read" is enabled, "Error retry attempts"
> | is 16, and "Drive read-ahead" is enabled.
> | 
> | Are all of these changeable with fx, or are they jumpered ?
> | If so, should I change them or assume fx did what was right ?
> 
> They are all changeable with fx.  recovered  error reporting
> is a religious issue, but ESD systems ship with it off, and
> ASD systems with it on, for the most part (different divisions,
> different religions).  I think we ship with auto bad block
> reallocation enabled on all drives that support it from both
> divisions these days.

Actually, only the 1.6GB drives had it on, and the future drives won't,
unless the drive thinks that the recovered error is a harbinger of
future unrecoverable errors.

jeremy
From: bob@prepress.com (Robert Crowe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
Subject: Re: Not enough swap space
Date: 20 Aug 92 06:38:26 GMT
Organization: Pre-Press Technologies, Carlsbad Ca.

In article <oplo2uo@fido.asd.sgi.com> williams@agomoda.asd.sgi.com (Eric Williams) writes:
>In <7085@charon.cwi.nl> robertl@cwi.nl (Robert van Liere) writes:
>
>
>>A long, long time ago (i.e. in the 3.3.? days) Lance M Option @ NIH
>>wrote :
>>
>>>     SGI System Gurus:
>>>       We are experiencing problems with "malloc()".  It seems
>>>       that if an amount of memory greater than the sum of
>>>       free memory and free swap space is requested, the malloc()
>>>       succeeds, but the program is killed by the OS when the
>>>       memory is used.  How can this condition be caught?  Can't
>>>       the OS give some indication to the user of why his proc died?
>>
>>We are currently experiencing this behavior as well. Can this condition
>>be caught in 4.0.5 ? If not, is there something else we can do to avoid
>>these (SysV related) "problems".
>
>I think the following should help.  It ought to change the behavior so that
>the malloc will fail.  The default as shipped is to have behavior as you
>describe.  (This change might also mean that processes are limited to total
>swap space, rather than the sum of swap space and physical memory.  Sorry
>I don't know for sure, so I can't say).
>
>Edit /usr/sysgen/master.d/kernel:
>
>/*
> * preallocation of swap space
> *      0  ==> disk space not preallocated for processes;
> *      !0 ==> disk space preallocated on fork/exec/sbrk/etc.
> */
>int availsmem_accounting = 0;
>
>
>Change the 0 to 1.  Run /etc/autoconfig.  Reboot.
>
>-Eric Williams

Note that this means when your 16 MB process does a system("ls"), or something
similar, unless you have another 16 MB to run ls in, the fork will fail.
At least thats how I understand it.  I don't like it much myself - I don't 
understand what was so bad about vfork (then again I'm not that familiar with
the internals of the operating system).  The way it is now, you either never
fork from a large program (but have a safe malloc), or you fork all you want, 
but roll the dice when you call malloc ( actually some point after that ).

One nice thing about the default method is that you can change all of these:

    if (!ch = malloc(size))
	return err;
    	
To these:

	ch = malloc(size);

Malloc simply will NOT fail for lack of memory.  How many existing unix 
programs will break under this arrangement do you think?


My 2 cents.

-- 
============================================================
Bob Crowe                      Voice:   (619) 931-2695
Pre-Press Technologies.        Email:    bob@prepress.com
2443 Impala dr.		       FAX:     (619) 931-2698
From: joseph.maddry@matrix.sbs.com (Joseph Maddry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
Subject: list
Date: 13 Aug 92 22:37:13 GMT


Date:        Tue, Aug. 11, 1992
From:        Joseph Maddry  <joseph.maddry@matrix.sbs.com>
Newsgroups:  comp.sys.sgi



                               PLEASE !!!!!











Joseph Maddry
joseph.maddry@matrix.sbs.com
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . If at first you don't succeed, use BIG LETTERS!
                                             
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi
From: hillig@U.Chem.LSA.UMich.EDU (Kurt Hillig)
Subject: svckudp_dupdone: insufficient duplicate request cache
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 18:06:50 EDT
Organization: Department of Chemistry, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
Summary: What does this mean and how do I fix it?

Several hours ago the above message popped up in all of my
windows and also in /usr/adm/syslog (I'm running a 4D/360 GTX,
Irix 4.0.5).  A few minutes ago I noticed that NIS service
for group was no longer working, even though password service
still worked (this machine is the NIS master for our domain);
i.e. an ls listing would show file owner's names correctly
but would show numerical group membership.

By touching /etc/group.yp, cd'ing to /usr/etc/yp and makeing group,
I got NIS group serving to work again.

I've spent quite a while with TFMs trying to figure out what
all this means, to no avail.  Therefore:

1) What does "svckudp_dupdone: insufficient duplicate request cache"
mean?  Should I worry about it?  Can I fix it?  Should I fix it?

2) Is it reasonable that the NIS problem is related to this error
message, or is this a symptom of some other underlying problem?
If the latter, how can I track this down if it happens again?

3) Will I ever have a simple problem to solve?  Or are they
defined such that the simple ones aren't problems?

Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi