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Posted-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 92 21:52:02 PDT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 21:52:02 PDT
From:         marken@AERO.ORG
Subject:      Controlling Kids

[From Rick Marken (920904.2030)]

Posting from home -- here is some leader.

Curt McNamara (920904.1730 CDT) in reply to:

>> [From Rick Marken (920904.1430)]
>>controlling is not a very good way for controllers to interact,
>>my own behavior notwithstanding. (As I always say to my kids, "do as I say,
>>not as I do; better yet, do as your mother says; even better yet, do what
>>you want").

says:

>	Really?  Is this how you raised your kids?  No time-outs,
>loss of privelieges, etc.?  Or was there something more?

Kids, like people, often do things that disturb variables we are
controlling (like the loudness level in the room, the number of pieces
of china on the floor, etc). We are usually stronger and smarter than
kids so we can exert some arbitrary control. I did it with my kids
occasionally, of course. What I didn't do was think that I was doing
it "for their own good"; I was doing it for the reason I try to control
anything  at all -- for MY own good (to control the variables I wanted to
control). I used control procedures (like those you mention) very
rarely. In fact, the kids were generally wonderful --
my wife and I served mainly as helpers and tutors to the extent
that we could understand (and tolerate) what the kids wanted to
achieve.

I think parents have remarkably little to do with the way their
kids turn out. I say this for both scientific and "religious"
reasons. The scientific reason is PCT which shows that you cannot
control behavior in any serious way, even when you have access to
the system from birth. The religious reason is this: I can't believe
god, even if he is the blood thirsty bozo portrayed in the bible,
would actually let the behavioral development of EVERY child depend
on the child rearing skills of the millions of idiots running
around having them. Children, when they become people, are not nearly
as idiotic as they might be expected to be. Just look at my
incredible children; even Skinner had great kids.

Having said that, I should add a caveat. Although they cannot control
their children (make them become doctors, lawyers, merchant men
or thieves), parents can screw them up pretty good. The best way to do
this is to try your best to control them -- ie. get them to behave
in the way you want them to behave. When you continually try to get
your kid to behave a particular way (assuming that the kid does
not want to behave that way for whatever reason) you will get a
kid who is constantly reorganizing in an effort to defeat the
goals of your controlling. I watched this happen over a 2 decade period
with my beloved brother; 20 years of efforts by well-intentioned
parents to turn my non school loving brother into an intellectual
managed to produce a man who can barely read.

It's a VERY ugly thing to watch.

The movie "Dead Poet's Society" may have been corny, but it HAPPENS.
After seeing that movie, my mother told my wife and I that the
father (of the kid who committed suicide) should have been a lot
tougher on the kid -- not letting him stray from the father's
intended "medical school" track. I've seen control up close and
personal, Curt, and it ain't pretty when you're on the wrong end.

>	Seriously, I would very much appreciate those of you who have
>raised/are raising children would pass on your tips on "aligning thier
>control structures" with those of civilization.

They will align them fine on their own. Cut 'em some slack.

>BTW it appears to me that some CSG-L folks don't believe in
>manipulation because they think everyone's control structures are
>perfectly aligned with their highest principles.

Not this CSG-L folk. I don't believe in manipulation of other
control systems because I know that it is most likely to lead
to CONFLICT. I would be happy to control people if the results
were as consistent as those that I get when I control my computer
or my piano. To the extent that you can manipulate people without
creating conflict, go for it. But I think you will be disappointed
in the long run. It's just not a good way to interact with people (or
kids) because it is virtually certain to produce CONFLICT -- that's the
yelling and screaming that you hear when you try to get the
kid to do X(1) but they seem to want to do X(2).

You do need to exert control over kids sometimes; but making it
a child-rearing POLICY is cruel and, almost certainly, catastrophic.

Best regards

Rick

     **************************************************************

Richard S. Marken                   USMail: 10459 Holman Ave
The Aerospace Corporation                   Los Angeles, CA 90024
E-mail: marken@aero.org
(310) 336-6214 (day)
(310) 474-0313 (evening)
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