HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Friday, 2 Oct 1992 00:56:57 CDT
From: <U54778@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Warren Commission Report

I posted a list of sources a while back which include used book stores.
Even these sources find it a rare occurence when a set of WC 26 volumes
becomes available.  Most people who have had an interest in these matters
have acquired a set over the years and will not part with it until they
go to that great conspiracy investigation in the sky.
I have tried to track down this work in other forms.  A company that has
since folded (MCA) used to put out a set on microfiche but I have never
been able to track down who ended up with this item.
The full WC 26 volumes and the full HSCA report can be found in paper form
at any library that has a Gov. Doc. section, and there are many.
It would be nice if someone would put this and other items such as the
FBI and CIA 1979 releases on CDROM but since there just is not enough
wide spread interest and the process is expensive, I doubt if this would
ever come to pass (unless I win the lottery).
ALAN ROGERS
From: oub@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Dances With Wolves)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Dallas Visit
Date: 30 Sep 92 05:21:19 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

Hmmm, all of these museums and JFK assassination centers got me thinking,
do they make a lot of money this way?  With all the publicity by the JFK
movie and everything else that comes with it, these places must have lots
of visitors do they not?  Just wondering.

P.S.  I thought I should mention that in the season premiere of
"Quantum Leap", Sam leaped back into guess who?  Lee Harvey Oswald.
It was a most interesting episode indeed...


Brandon 
--
Brandon S. Ou  ~{E7Ji:j~}     Computer Science    
University of Arizona         Tucson, Arizona
Internet:  bsou@caslon.cs.arizona.edu 
           oub@gas.uug.arizona.edu  
" It's up to YOU... "  - Kevin Costner as Jim Garrison, "JFK"
From: dxc4@po.CWRU.Edu (David Condon)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: 30 year anniversary?
Date: 28 Sep 1992 17:09:37 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: dxc4@po.CWRU.Edu (David Condon)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, dbernard@thewho.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard) says:

>Next year is the 30th anniversary of the assasination.  Anyone
>know of any special plans to observe the event in Dallas?  A
>convention of those tracking the conspiracy theories?  A
>dedication of this or that historical site?  Release of hitherto
>unreleased government files?  A gathering of alt.conspiracy.jfk
>readers in Dallas?
>
>
>	Dave
>
I've had this idea brewing in my head to go there if I possibly can. There
will have to be something.
-- 
"In universities, it is forbidden     |  "Personally, my politics are so far
to teach nonsense. But the _history_  |  to the right, I consider Paul Revere
of nonsense -- that's scholarship!"   |  to be a pinko."
               -- Saul Lieberman      |                 -- Tom Grundner
From: karn@servo.qualcomm.com (Phil Karn)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: mortal error
Date: 7 Oct 92 04:13:23 GMT
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc

In article <schuck.718352964@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>Echoes do not cause the hair on someones head to fly forward.

No, but the impact of a bullet coming from behind certainly can.
Look, I've seen the Zapruder film, and it is perfectly consistent
with JFK being hit from behind. After all, his brain tissues are
clearly seen (on the famous frame 313) to explode out the side
AND FORWARD. This is difficult to account for with a bullet from
the front.

>Neither do echoes cause a piece of skull to fly backwards or blood and
>brain tissue to fly backwards. These effects have been described by
>the motorcycle policeman to the rear and left of JFK.

No doubt these pieces could have moved backwards due to any of
several causes: the acceleration of the limo, the wind, etc.

>JFK was flung backwards and to his left. This was not caused by an
>echo either.

No, it was most likely caused by the neuromuscular spasm. I suspect
your body might possibly react if your brains got blown out, too.
Remember also that JFK wore a back brace, which could easily have
affected his body motions after the impact.

>The gunshots on the HSCA have never been proven to be anything but
>gunshots. There are *two* gunshots approximately .8 seconds apart on
>the tape. On the enhanced tape there are also echoes that can be
>heard. The echoes are *separate* from the gunshots.

The "gunshots" have never been proven to *be* gunshots either. I thought
the NRC report took care of that issue.

Phil
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Subject: Re: Who bloody cares?
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 22:30:14 GMT

s666@ac.dal.ca writes:

>    I really don't get the large amount of material regarding JFKs
>assassanation. I mean Oswald was fingered for it and he's dead. It happened
>many years ago and it is starting to get stale.
>Sean Dzafovic

An obvious dupe of the conspiracy!  You expect us to believe a lousy Canuck
with an account number of 666?  Come on, fess up, you're working for the CIA
aren't you?
-- 
	"Oh, save me from these pale green pants with nobody inside!"

DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer.  Keep it that way.
Pete Ashdown    pashdown@slack.sim.es.com    ...uunet!slack.sim.es.com!pashdown
From: harderaf@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: English guy speaks out
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:40:58 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire

Hi,  I'm an  English visitor (I teach American history)  and I"ve done a lot of
resaeaRC JHINTO THE JFK ASSassassination. I guess the thing which intersets me
most is the presumptionb among American critivcsa that it ois possible yto
determine the truth ofd the tevenyt sin DaLLASas by the avaialblew ecidewnce .
eh that ius the the turth of a pthootgrapg is s detetminative that one can be
balanced againsat the other, so that id the two don^t agree we havew a
contorsiction which can oinlu be explained by recourse to consapiraCY. Tjhe
fact that the evidence probidsed by phots, ullets tracks etc is inherently
problemeatic, ands that resolutrion requies  FAITH but not faCT,  seems to be
igonred, Perhaps you all nee distance forn the subject.
cs275:listadt,cs275:celladtharderaf@cnsvax.uwec.eduuser ftpin%"adoluwec.eduuser
ftpin%"adolph-a-carrot@andrew.cmu.edu"atdt
*70,836-4611cs275:listadt,harderaf@cnsvax.u
^TThank you,,


Love,

Ali Spaerk


Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: mortal error
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:49:49 GMT

>  &  >>> Tony Simon
>> & >>>> Bruce Schuck (me)

>> 
>>Thats your interpretation, but not mine. At 255 he is about 200-220
>>feet from the TSBD. I would think his field of view included the 6th
>>floor.
>> 

>And where is the tree between the TSBD and Hickey. . . in his line of sight?

I don't think so, but thats a good point.
The tree blocked Oswalds [supposed] view until about frame 210.
    
    [As a side note, the HSCA claims JFK was shot at 190, which is
     when JFK was hidden by the tree -- go figure]

255 is 2.5 seconds later. The Limo was going 12 mph , which is 18 fps.
If Hickey was less than 45 feet behind JFK , then he would have been
able to see Oswald. I think the distance to the follow up car + 
length of follow up car is less than 45 feet, so Hickey should 
have had a clear view by 255, if not before.


>>>>If there was a shooter on the 6th floor of the TSBD, he should have
>>>>seen the rifle.
>> 
>>>If he was looking at the sixth floor.
>> 
>>Well....if you were an SS agent and heard rifle shots behind you,
>>would you:
>> 
>>a) look at the crowd 
>> or 
>>b) look at the windows of the tall buildings behind you? 
>> 
>>I think b) would be the best choice, and the one SS agents should have
>>been trained to do.

>I still see Hickey looking at the crowd in the Altgens photo. I would have
>looked around (especially the buildings), but that doesn't mean that Hickey
>did that. For instance, did Hickey realize that gunfire was occuring by the
>time of that picture? 

Yes. Hickey's statment in the WCH said he saw the bullet that hit JFK
in the back actually occur. That means he knew shots were being fired as
early as 190 or as late as 230 depending on when you think JFK was
wounded in the back.

>The Secret Service agents always seem to be looking at
>the crowd. So, he hears a shot and maybe thinks that it is backfire. He looks
>around at ground level (unaware that the president is hit).

255 would have been after *two* shots.
He claimed he saw the President actually hit in the back.

>What is Hickey's testimony regarding when he heard shots and what he did when
>he heard them? Can you give me a source for that?

It's in the WCH , I forget which volume.

However, the SS statments taken within a few days of the 22nd
are included in Mortal Error by Menninger. It's out in paperback now.

-- 
===============================================================================
        "We've got to get bigger guns" -- Dick Durkin -- Split Second

schuck@sfu.ca                                           Vote No on October 26th
===============================================================================
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3406 alt.conspiracy:10943 sci.skeptic:17429 talk.rumors:1064
From: marco@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (John Perry)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.rumors
Subject: Re: alt.conspiracy.jfk under attack!
Date: 4 Oct 92 03:31:41 GMT
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

doug@ramona.com (Double Agent) writes:

> I've been tipped off that someone at one of the main news distribution
> sites has installed a program that randomly deletes a percentage of
> postings to alt.conspiracy.jfk. This program has been running for months.
> Why would some sick hacker do this? Supposedly to make a.c.j posters
> feel more paranoid than they really are when their postings don't get
> answered.

It's probably a consipiracy among the CIA and Castro. In fact, I KNOW, I 
saw someone hacking away at a computer up on the grassy knole.
From: sdevries@fys.ruu.nl (Sjoerd de Vries)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: articles on accoustic evidence
Date: 27 Sep 92 14:39:49 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands

I've read about the accoustic evidence in several books now
(Livingstone, HTII; Summers, Conspiracy etc.), but I find none of the
discussions very satisfactory. I would like to have the original reports
of both the HSCA panels and the NAS committee. I suppose that the report
of the HSCA panel is in one of the volumes of the HSCA report to which I
don't have access. Is there a book or a scientific journal that
covers these specific matters?
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Sjoerd C. de Vries                            | If all else fails |
| Utrecht Biophysics Research Institute         | we can whip the   |
| Dept. of Medical and Physiological Physics    | horses' eyes      |
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: garrett@Ingres.COM (ENTROPY. IT'S THE LAW)
Subject: The Umbrella Man
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: Signals
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
Date: 3 Oct 92 03:19:53 GMT

	Yesterday I was thinking about the JFK assasination
(my mind drifts sometimes), and I thought "What do you need to 
ambush someone?" 
	A SIGNAL! You need a signal for everyone to fire!
Where was the signal to fire in Dallas? Then I remembered the man
in the rain coat and umbrella. It was warm and sunny that day.
People in this group have speculated about him before (someone said
he might have had one of those cool CIA guns in the umbrella).
But I don't think anybody has speculated that he was the signal man.
What would be a better signal to fire than opening an umbrella?
I don't remember if he had the umbrella open before the shooting
started or not. But even if he did have it open before, he might
have been giving the "All Clear" signal. Why else would someone
have an umbrella and raincoat out on a sunny, humid day? (that just
happens to be the day that the president gets assasinated)
	Now if the Umbrella Man was part of the conspiracy
(and it was a conspiracy), what else does this mean? It means that
you can almost pinpoint where the assassins were. They wouldn't be
behind the Umbrella Man, or directly opposite him (beyond JFK) because
the Umbrella Man might get hit. It also means that the assassins 
would need to be able to clearly see both the Umbrella Man AND JFK 
(nothing could obscure the view). Finally, if he was giving the 
signal to fire (this doesn't apply if he was just giving the ALL CLEAR),
then the assassins would need to be able to see both the Umbrella 
Man and JFK without turning their heads very far (because they would
need to start firing the moment he opened the umbrella. If he was just 
giving an ALL CLEAR signal then they would start firing after JFK
had reached an agreed upon point).
	Whether he was giving an ALL CLEAR signal or not can be
answered by someone on the network who knows if the Umbrella Man
had the umbrella open several seconds before the shooting started.
Can someone answer this question? Also, since we can rule out 
street-level assassins, can someone narrow down the possible places
of assassins based on this speculation? Is the grassy knoll still
likely? More likely?
	Finally, this is the second time I'm entering this. The 
first time I posted this it didn't go through. When I saw the post about
someone saying that posts were dissapearing because of a conspiracy,
I laughed like I'm sure a lot of other people did. But now my post 
dissapeared (the only post I ever did in this group that took brain
power. Also, the only post that ever dissapeared.). I'm not laughing
anymore.

-Garrett  

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: Who bloody cares?
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:46:31 GMT

pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes:

>s666@ac.dal.ca writes:

>>    I really don't get the large amount of material regarding JFKs
>>assassanation. I mean Oswald was fingered for it and he's dead. It happened
>>many years ago and it is starting to get stale.
>>Sean Dzafovic

>An obvious dupe of the conspiracy!  You expect us to believe a lousy Canuck
                                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Careful now.

>with an account number of 666?  Come on, fess up, you're working for the CIA
>aren't you?

It's CSIS he's working for, not the CIA. :)


-- 
===============================================================================
        "We've got to get bigger guns" -- Dick Durkin -- Split Second

schuck@sfu.ca                                           Vote No on October 26th
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.rumors
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: alt.conspiracy.jfk under attack!
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 17:45:04 GMT

doug@ramona.com (Double Agent) writes:

>I've been tipped off that someone at one of the main news distribution
>sites has installed a program that randomly deletes a percentage of
>postings to alt.conspiracy.jfk. This program has been running for months.
>Why would some sick hacker do this? Supposedly to make a.c.j posters
>feel more paranoid than they really are when their postings don't get
>answered.

It doesn't surprise me. Some of the sci.skeptic regulars 
threatened to act when a.c.jfk postings were being cross-posted. 

I received a few e-mail messages hinting that 'something would be done'.

I've had to resend some postings and put down the problem to my
site. I wonder how many others didn't get through?



-- 
===============================================================================
        "We've got to get bigger guns" -- Dick Durkin -- Split Second

schuck@sfu.ca                                           Vote No on October 26th
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: waf9851@zeus.tamu.edu (FULLER, WALTER ANDREW III)
Subject: Re: Dallas Visit
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 05:22:00 GMT

In article <61560007@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com>, cmccoy@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Craig McCoy) writes...
>My wife and I were in Dallas earlier this month and took the opportunity to
>visit Dealy Plaza and other JFK assassination related sites.  If you haven't
>already had the chance, I would recommend to anyone interested in the
>assassination to visit Dallas.  Much of Dealy Plaza and the related sites are
>pretty much as they were in 1963.  I found the experience quite enlighting.

I, too, have taken the time to explore Dealy Plaza and found it very
enlightening.  It is true that the area is practically the same as it
was in 1963.

>As might be expected, I found Dealy Plaza to be much smaller than I imaged.

This is a very common comment..

>all.  Of course, the grassy knoll area seemed even closer.  Speaking of the
>grassy knoll, I stood at various positions behind the picket fence and found it
>would have been hard to get a clean shot at the president until the limo was
>almost perpendicular to the shooter due to the foliage in front of the fence
>(thus, I couldn't see how any of the early shots came from here).  But then
>there is probably now a lot more foliage than there was 29 years ago.

The foliage is irrelevant here. What's important is how extremely close this
position is to the route of the President's car.  Even a long barrel pistol
would have been more than adequate at this short range.  I couldn't help but
stand in awe of the fact that a potential "sniper's nest" this close to the
President's motorcade route was totally unguarded. And when I say close, I
mean that someone standing behind the picket fence could practically spit
all the way to the street.

One other thing you will notice as you stand at the 6th floor window where
Oswald supposedly fired the fatal shots:  when you look down to the spots
where the President was wounded, and then compare that view with the view 
once had as the Presidential motorcade made its approach to the School Book
Depository before making that fateful last turn, you can only shake your
head in trying to figure out why the head on shots were not fired.
From: rays@Corp.Sun.COM (Ray Sciurba)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Congress votes to release the files
Date: 2 Oct 1992 23:46:48 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: rays@Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: sunnycal.corp.sun.com

In article 43496@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, paulj@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu () writes:
>The Congress has just sen to President Vush a bill to open the records
>of the Warren Commisssion and other agecies regarding th JFK
>assasination.  I think all the inportant stuff has been destroyed by
>now so the truth will never be known>
>-- 
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>|                          PAUL JEFFERSON                          |
>| PAULJ@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU       AE824@YFN.YSU.EDU                 |
>| BR584@FREENET.CRWU.EDU          PAULJ@UKANVAX                    |
>|__________________________________________________________________|


Interesting thing is that the House yielded to the Senate version of the 
bill and gave up its demand for a court-appointed commision to review
documents that officials insist on keeping secret.  And both the Senate 
and the Bush administration demanded that the five commission members 
be *picked by the President*, with the approval of the Senate, rather 
that through the U.S. Court of Appeals in D.C.

Does this sound like "The Bush Commission", (sequel to "The Warren 
Commission"), assuming that he's still president if/when he signs the 
bill.

Ray

---
Ray Sciurba - rays@corp.sun.com

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: mortal error
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:23:16 GMT

>  Tony Simon 
>> Bruce Schuck 

>>The Altgens photo was taken about the time of the 2nd shot.
>>Hickey is the SS agent who is not standing up, but has his head above
>>the windshield of the followup car. He is sitting on the top of the
>>back of the rear seat and is looking directly backwards.
>>The Altgens photo is famous and can be seen in several books,
>>including Mortal Error [sometimes the right side is cropped.
>>It's also in High Treason.
>>It was taken at frame 255 according to the WC, although Altgens
>>says he snapped the shutter at the time of the 2nd shot which
>>probably occurred around 237.
>> 

>I see Hickey. He appears to be looking back at the crowd. I doubt he could see
>a gun on the 6th floor when he's looking at the crowd on ground level.

Thats your interpretation, but not mine. At 255 he is about 200-220
feet from the TSBD. I would think his field of view included the 6th
floor.

>>>Couldn't you at least put a reference once in
>>>awhile? It makes it easier to look things up.
>> 
>>Very funny.

>The problem is that I do not have all the source material that you have at
>your fingertips. I have to go to the library and find a book that is actually
>in the library that has the picture. I suspect that there others with the
>same problem. I have other work to do, so I can't afford to spend my whole
>life tracking down something that you make comments about without some kind
>of reference.

I'm not the alt.conspiracy.jfk reference librarian either. 
It's not my job to source everything I write. If I'm quoting from a
source book I usually do. Do you source everything you post?

>> 
>>>>If there was an assassin to see in the TSBD, and I'm sure from less
>>>>than 200 feet a rifle would have had a good chance of being seen,
>>>>then Hickey would have had a target.
>>>>

>Provided he was looking in the proper direction.

>> 
>>>By the time he would have had his rifle up, couldn't the target on the 6th
>>>floor have been gone?
>> 
>>If there was a shooter on the 6th floor of the TSBD, he should have
>>seen the rifle.

>If he was looking at the sixth floor.

Well....if you were an SS agent and heard rifle shots behind you,
would you:

a) look at the crowd 
 or 
b) look at the windows of the tall buildings behind you? 

I think b) would be the best choice, and the one SS agents should have
been trained to do.
-- 
===============================================================================
        "We've got to get bigger guns" -- Dick Durkin -- Split Second

schuck@sfu.ca                                           Vote No on October 26th
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk