From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Subject: Re: Kali (Was Re: More Crone Images)
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:38:13 GMT

Greetings -

Since this thread has shifted slightly to a show-and-tell on Kali, I
thought I'd share an article I posted to alt.mythology last week, and some
follow-up email I received.  Alas, I do not have the several other
articles that were posted in response to Tagi's original query before
mine.  If people are interested in continuing a discussion on "everything
you always wanted to know about the cultural derivations of Kali," I can
email Tagi and ask him to share a summary/synthesis of replies to his
request.  (I don't *think* you read alt.pagan, do you Tagi? :-)

That seems more of an alt.mythology discussion ('though I know there's
lots of crossover!), but we've gotten a bit away from qualities that Kali
represents or embodies.  (See the last paragraph in the article for what I
think about "contradictory" information and interpretations.)

Enjoy!


Article: 1420 of alt.mythology
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Subject: Re: Kali (Durga, et al)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:59:34 GMT

In article <62290@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:
> 9207.17 e.v.
> 
> What information (referenced or from personal insight) does anyone
> have about Kali, Kali-Ma, or Durga?
> 
> ------------
> Opinions encouraged.  References welcome.   Humor appreciated.> 


Greetings Tagi -

No one has referenced Barbara Walker yet, and I'm home sick today :-( so I
have access to my copy of her _The_Woman's_Encyclopedia_of_Myths_and_
Secrets_.  Walker has a 6 page entry on Kali Ma, with 46 footnotes
(yikes!).  Here are a few excerpts I thought were interesting: 

	"'Dark Mother,' the Hindu Triple Goddess of creation, preservation,
and destruction; now most commonly known in her Destroyer aspect,
squatting over her dead consort Shiva and devouring his entrails while her
yoni sexually devours his lingam (penis)...
	"Kali was the basic archetypal image of the birth-and-death Mother,
simultaneously womb and tomb, giver of life and devourer of her children:
the same image portrayed in a thousand ancient religions." (p.488)

	"Kali stood for Existence, which meant Becoming because all her
world was an eternal living flux from which all things rose and
disappeared again, in endless cycles.  The gods, whom she bore and
devoured, addressed her thus: 
	"'Thou art the Original of all the manifestations; Thou art
the birthplace of even Us; Thou knowest the whole world, yet none know
Thee....  Thou art both Subtle and Gross, Manifested and Veiled, Formless,
yet with form.  Who can understand Thee?...  It is Thou who art the
Supreme Primordial Kalika....  Resuming after dissolution Thine own form,
dark and formless, Thou alone remainest as One ineffable and inconceivable
... though Thy self without beginning, multiform by the power of Maya,
Thou art the Beginning of all, Creatrix, Protectress, and Destructress.'" 
(p. 489, quote from _Mahanirvanatantra_)

	"Indo-European languages branched from the root of Sanskrit, said
to be Kali's invention.  She created the magic letters of the Sanskrit
alphabet and inscribed them on the rosary of skulls around her neck.  The
letters were magic because they stood for primordial creative energy
expressed in sound - Kali's _mantras_ brought into being the very things
whose names she spoke for the first time, in her holy language." (p. 491)

Walker discusses Kali's triple goddess aspect, and draws links to all
other sacred trinities.  She focusses on Kali's destroyer aspect, although
she is clear that to view Kali only in this way is to miss much of what
she represents. 

In contrast, there is less than a page on Durga.

	"Kali's Creating-Preserving-Destroying trinity was said to consist
of Parvati or Maya the Virgin, Durga the Queen-Mother, and Uma or Prisni
the Crone.  Durga was entitled 'The Inaccessible.'" (p.257)

The first story I remember hearing about Kali and Durga was that Kali is
Durga's mother, and gave birth to her in order to defeat a demon who was
killing off too many humans and altering the balance that Kali maintains. 
Kali and Durga come to earth on a ferocious tiger in order to accomplish
this.  Some pagan musical acquaintances perform a song called "Jai Ma"
which wishes victory to Kali and Durga on this mission. 

My SO is currently reading the _Mahabharata_ (sp?), and reports that
sometimes Kali is portrayed as a male god.  I don't have further details
on this yet.

Given the variables in the Hindu pantheon (caste, region, sect, influence
of other religions, etc.), there are many conflicting views and stories of
Kali.  The common denominator that I have seen so far is the she is one
powerful goddess, not to be taken lightly! 

BB,

- Gretchen

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The next day, I received the following email from someone who sought to
enlighten me about Kali's gender-bending in the _Mahabharata_:

> From: vidya@cco.caltech.edu (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 20:06:00 PDT
> To: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
> Subject: Re: Kali (Durga, et al)
>
>
> In alt.mythology article <1992Jul23.195934.5903@lclark.edu> you  
> wrote:
> - My SO is currently reading the _Mahabharata_ (sp?), and reports that
> - sometimes Kali is portrayed as a male god.  I don't have further details
> - on this yet.
>
>
> Kali as female is a Goddess i.e. female and is all that you have seen  
> on the net . The pronunciation of the word is with an elongated a,  
> like in aardvark. The 'l' is also hard. Whereas Kali, is a male  
> demi-God, the embodiment of Kali Yuga, the fourth age. The  
> pronunciation of both 'a' and 'l' is as in 
> dism'al'. Kali is male is more evil than otherwise. The Mahabharata  
> refers to him in the story of Nala and Damayanti. Kali is said to be  
> vengeful, and as he was not chosen by Damayanti to be her husband,  
> decided to take revenge on Nala. He is said to heve been responsible  
> for Nala's misfortunes. Kali the male is no relation to Kali, the  
> Mother Goddess.
>
> S.Vidyasankar
> vidya@cco.caltech.edu

----------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps.  (Or at least generates some more interesting discussion!)

BB,

- Gretchen
-- 
Gretchen Klotz					       Computing Services 
klotz@lclark.edu				    Lewis & Clark College
Newsgroups: alt.pagan