HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mjc5@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael J. Cavotta)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: re: Abortion Question
Date: 28 Jan 1993 02:47:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: mjc5@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael J. Cavotta)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu



	Thank you all very much for your input.  It was greatly
appreciated, and I'm glad to say that the home-test was negative. 
I have received a lot of email in response to my post, and my mailbox isn't
big enough to handle it all.  Please refrain from sending any more email,
and know that Dee and I are grateful for your help.

-- 
Michael J. Cavotta                 
Proud American & NRA Member    (Down with the jibbering masses of liberalism!)
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
  "You either ride the steam-roller, or stand there whining and die" (Me).
From: SURGDM@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Diane)
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism
Subject: Re: What feminists believe
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:41:18 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri

In article <1993Jan26.191422.7632@netcom.com>
payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
 
>It might interest you to know that while in the USMC, I talked to many
>female Marines who were quite vocal about refusing to fight. I also knew
>of a few women who got pregnant to get out. They still have this option,
>there are massive differences beyond combat. Women in the military have
>their privacy respected, men do not.
>
When I was in the Army, I knew several people of *both* genders who
were vocally opposed to combat. I also knew men who shaved their entire
bodies, began wetting their bunks, and masturbated in public in order to
get out of the Army under Section 8s. There still is this option. Privacy
in the military? Maybe in the Marines, but I saw little evidence of it in
the Army, for *either* sex. When I was in basic I lived on a 40-woman
open bay. There were 4 stall-less toilets and one large shower room. At my
permanent duty station I shared a room with 3 other women with one bathroom
for each floor. Privacy in the field (playing war) was non-existant (no
latrines, 2-person pup tents, etc).
 
>There is so many non-combat related pro-female biases in the military that
>could easily be addressed, but are not, that I doubt that women in the
>military will even work under equaivalnat conditions as the men. And there
>is always the issue of pregnancy as an out, what if this happened during
>a combat situation? What if this happened accidentally?
>
 
Getting pregnant to get out of the military! Boy, is *that* shooting
yourself in the foot! Wait a minute! there were *men* during 'Nam that
actually *did* shoot themselves in the foot to get out of combat! Why,
there were even men who shot their commanding officers to get out of combat!
 
But really,
In an 'equal' situation, a pregnant soldier would be treated no differently
than any other soldier with a temporary disability. I had my daughter while
I was a crewchief at Ft. Campbell. I worked on the line (in civvies- there
were no maternity flightsuits at that time!) until the 8th month, when I
took a desk job in supply until I went into labor. I was back in 6 weeks
and finished out my obligation. I spent less time out than one of our
lieutenants who hurt his back on a fishing trip!
 
I will try to dig up the study that I participated in (in the late '70s)
that the Army conducted to study the impact of pregnancy on troop strength.
It found that soldiers *who had pregnant wives* took more time off from
duty than pregnant soldiers did!
 
So tell me, what are these great advantages to being a woman in the military
that I seem to have *completely* missed?
 
Diane
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall)
Subject: Pay Inequality in the 90's
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:52:26 GMT


Heard on NPR this morning:

 An interview with a San Francisco NOW representative and a female member of
 SF Mayor Frank Jordan's staff, some (mumble) title having to do with Policy.

 I really did try to remember their names, but was not able to get it down on 
 paper quick enough to do so.  

 NOW did a limited investigation of pay equity in SF city government - limited
 due to their use of volunteers and being outsiders.

 Basically, they presented such statistics as:

	If you are earning over $90,000/yr, 
	   there is a 100% chance that you are a man.

	If you are earning under $30,000/yr,
	   there is a 100% chance that you are a woman.

 Out of all the SF Commission Director positions:

	75% are held by men and their AVERAGE salary is $115,000.

	25% are held by women and their AVERAGE salary is $65,000.

 When Jordan's representative was asked about this, she said simply that
 a woman is not valued the same as a man and that she is working to change
 that from within.  It was noted that the Giants baseball "crisis" garnered
 much concern and personal attention from Mayor Jordan, but sexism within
 his own administration does not.
   
 She also receives much lower pay, as a direct report to Jordan, than the 
 men who also directly report to Jordan, despite her 20 years of political 
 experience as well as her work experience.  She worked into a management 
 from a cable splicer for GTE.  She claims that "lack of experience and 
 unqualified" can NOT be used to explain the pay inequality for these positions.

 Janice Kendall    kendall@adobe.com    ...!{decwrl|sun}!adobe!kendall

		"Creativity overcomes violence."
				John Bradshaw on "Homecoming"
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: What does "Male-dominated society" mean?
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:21:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.201246.9736@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:

)And yet we keep seeing posters maintain that there is a
)cultural/societal proscription against violence towards women.  How
)does it work, then, that men and women in fairly equal numbers abuse
)their mates, but there is a proscription in favor of women but not in
)favor of men?  By this reasoning, it appears that women are much
)better at controlling their violence than men, since men commit
)violence in spite of a proscription and women commit violence in the
)absence of one.  This nearly sounds like a moral superiority of women
)that a few feminists suggest.

)And, of course, we haven't touched on your stats which (if I remember
)correctly) suggest that women are more severely injured by domestic
)violence and the fact that ~70% of rape victims are women.

The 70% figure isn't mine - I haven't seen any figures I trust on how
often women and girls  vs men and boys are raped.  Rapes among adult
non-institutionalized people are almost certainly not as large as 30% men,
IMO.

Women do seek treatment for injuries more often than men as a result of
domestic violence.  I believe that at least some of the difference
is because men are less willing to seek treatment, but I doubt this
explains all the difference, as it was rather large.

I think that there is still more of a prescription of violence against women
than against men, but I can't back this opinion up with any particular
statistics.  There was certainly more of a prescription of violence
against women than against men in my own upbringing - however it is risky
to generalize this to the society at large.  The place I would look to
check out my impressions is to look at the relative punishments meeted out
to people who were violent to men vs. those who were violent towards women,
attempting to control for the level of the violence.  I've never seen this
done and it sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth - IMO.

To try and put domestic violence into perspective from statistics, it appears
that once every 8-10 years or so, the average couple does get upset enough
with one another for one of them to slap, grab, shove, hit, or throw
something at the other.  This average is probably pushed up by more violent
families where hitting is much more common, so looking at the 'average'
figure as being a typical family  may be misleading.  More severe violence is
more rare than this.
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: apdolan@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (dolan andrew)
Subject: black women & white men
Summary: black women & white men
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:59:13 GMT
Keywords: black women & white men

 
 Am interested in personal anecdotes and printed materials
 about black woman/white man relationships. Am a white man
 whose relationships have been primarily interracial. Below
 are some major books & stuff I have come across:

 "Black and White Mixed Marriages"
	- by Ernest Porterfield
 "Marriage Across the Color Line
	_ (1965) Larsson

 Interrace magazine: lots of information about married couples
 and childrearing, less about singles and dating. 

 Am also interested in any type of institution which focuses on
 black woen/white men relationships: support groups,
 dating services, churches, etc.Would be especially interested
 in hearing about how black women or white men broke the
 ice. If there are any interested parties, am willling
 to discuss my own experiences and other written materials I
 have gathered.

 Contact me at   apdolan@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

 Am a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Champaign



D



Newsgroups: soc.women
From: kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall)
Subject: Re: Subway gropers
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:52:46 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.122002.12023@adx.adelphi.edu> lingling@abraxas.adelphi.edu (Lisa Nyman) writes:
>
>Yesterday, my sister got on a New York City subway train at 42nd St. and
>at 96th, a guy stood behind her (note: The train was jammed as it
>was rush hour) and she felt what she thought was a gym bag bumping into 
>her behind.  At 103rd St. the train emptied a bit and she turned and saw    
>that there was no gym bag or bag of any kind and was utterly surprised
>that this guy had been feeling her  the whole time.  She was sort of
>stunned and didn't know what to do.  The guy moved away and stood by 
>another woman and my sister thought he would do the same theng to her,
>but couldn't see his hands.  She did, though, see the guy lean over
>and smell the other woman's hair, and as my sister got off right after that,    
>she said *loudly* to the woman something to the effect of - Watch out
>for the guy behind you, he's probably been feeling your rear like he'd
>been doing to mine.  So, the question is, what would some of you have done
>at the moment you realized there was no gym bag.  My sister was stunned
>because after 7 years of living in NYC, this was the first time
>something like this happened.  
>--
>Lisa Wolfisch Nyman         "Life is too short to wear ugly underwear."
>panda@syrinx.umd.edu                    
>Just remember, geographers do it in places unknown to the general public.
>New from Dweeb Publishers: Memoirs of a Workstation Widow, Oh the Agony of It


Have you received any responses?  If yes, would you mind posting a summary?

I think what she did in regards to the other woman was fine.  If I thought
someone was touching me, I guess I'd try to either move, or move some object
inbetween us (briefcase or backpack would be nice to have).  Maybe saying
something loudly wouldn't hurt, either.

You can check with you hand or look to see what it is touching you.  You can
use your elbows and knees to keep some space and to keep people from pressing
against you.

 Janice Kendall    kendall@adobe.com    ...!{decwrl|sun}!adobe!kendall

		"Creativity overcomes violence."
				John Bradshaw on "Homecoming"
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: era@csn.org (Ed Arnold)
Subject: REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
Originator: era@teal.csn.org
Keywords: Extremists, Christian Right, Amendment 2
Reply-To: era@csn.org (Ed Arnold)
Organization: Citizens Project; Colorado Springs, CO
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:47:38 GMT

We of the Citizens Project (Colorado Springs, CO) are looking for people
who could assist us in re-distributing the Citizens Project Newsletter
to non-Internet computer services.  If you have an account on any such
services (CompuServe, FidoNet, Genie, Prodigy, America Online, and others)
and are willing to help us, please let us know via return email to
era@ncar.ucar.edu.

The Citizens Project is a Colorado Springs, CO - based group of volunteers
who seek to prevent extremists from eliminating our fundamental freedoms,
in the face of growing political and religious intolerance in Colorado.
--
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
-- 
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: cindy@solan10.solan.unit.no (Cynthia Kandolf)
Subject: Re: a question to married women
Organization: /home/ludviga/cindy/.organization
Date: 21 Jan 93 19:53:27

Will Steeves writes:
>geoqwang@brahms.udel.edu (Qinxian Wang) writes...
>>I recently read some books and maganizes about the differences
>between men
>>and women, and I am amazed by the different ways of thinking for men
>and
>>women.  It seems to me that men in general don't know women,
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Well, Qinxian, you're at least half right...
>
>What?  And do you *really* think that women *do* know men?  (This is
>what is seemingly implied by your post).  IMHO, neither gender
>*really*
>"knows" the other, no matter how long they live together.

Well, that depends.  I think i know my husband about as well as i
could know another person.  (We've been married for two years,
together for five.)  But i don't completely know him, and doubt i ever
will.  And i certainly don't think getting to know him has helped me
understand men.  In fact, if living with him has taught me anything,
it is that there is no creature called The Typical Man.  There's just
a whole bunch of men, each of them different, and most of them
completely unpredictable.  (I would say the same about women, by the
way... is there any woman who really figures she understands all
women?!)

>>even they live together because of the fundamental difference - women
>>feel and men don't, as I understand.
>
>...And this is also *very* stereotypical, Qinxian.

And very wrong.  About a month ago i found out a paper i wrote was
going to be published.  My husband is _still_ telling me how proud he
is of me, almost every day.  He feels, alright.  I've also met a few
women who i would swear are incapable of feeling anything for anybody
- at least anybody other than themselves.  Feeling things or not is an
individual thing, not a function of gender.

What is true, i think, is that in many societies women are raised to
show that they have feelings (even when they don't) and men are raised
to hide their feelings (even when they have them).  However, we're
brought up not to scratch certain places in public, too - that doesn't
mean they never itch!

-Cindy Kandolf
 cindy@solan.unit.no
 Trondheim, Norway

Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: What feminists believe (was: Re: Male Men Bashers)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:14:22 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.041428.20956@microsoft.com> jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:
>In article <1993Jan23.201809.730@hellgate.utah.edu> galt%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan22.093251.30@microsoft.com> jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:
>>>>12. Women should be drafted as well, where a draft exists.
>>>
>>>YES.
>>
>>Why is this a feminist issue?  Currently, men's rights are denied by the
>>draft, so you would like women to have the same rights taken away?  That
>>is ridiculous.  To call that a feminist view is even more ridiculous.
>
>I have serious reservations about drafts in general, and am glad that
>no draft currently exists in my country [USA - registration <> draft].
>
>However, to have men be drafted and not women reinforces the &*)% gender
>roles about how men are to sacrifice themselves for the sake of women 
>& children 

This follows...

>        and that women are helpless little darlings that can barely
>wipe their own behinds, much LESS do anything useful or productive.

This absolutely does not.
 
>To summarize: I prefer no draft [and no registration]. However, if there
>is a draft, it should be of both genders.
>
>Yes, I've written my rep & senators on this issue.

It might interest you to know that while in the USMC, I talked to many
female Marines who were quite vocal about refusing to fight. I also knew
of a few women who got pregnant to get out. They still have this option,
there are massive differences beyond combat. Women in the military have 
their privacy respected, men do not.

There is so many non-combat related pro-female biases in the military that
could easily be addressed, but are not, that I doubt that women in the
military will even work under equaivalnat conditions as the men. And there
is always the issue of pregnancy as an out, what if this happened during
a combat situation? What if this happened accidentally?
 
>-jen


Rich

payner@netcom.com


Newsgroups: soc.women
From: chris@psych.toronto.edu (Chris Hitchcock)
Subject: Re: What does "Male-dominated society" mean?
Organization: Dept. of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:56:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.024228.23288@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>In article <1993Jan24.010521.28434@smds.com> rh@ishmael.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan23.201246.9736@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>>
>>There are a lot of missing and hidden premises in that sentence.
>>What is true is that violence outside of domestic settings is almost
>>exclusively a male activity and is generally targeted against males.
>>Within domestic settings violence is more nearly egalitarian.  Make
>>of that what you will.

I am curious about this domestic violence statistic. Is it an American
statistic (US), or does it include some of the rest of us too? (Michael
Rivero, could you look it up?).

The reason I ask is because the US is unique in homicide literature
as the one place in the world where wives are as likely to kill their
husbands as husbands are to kill their wives. (reference: M. Daly & M.
Wilson, _Homicide_ early 90 's or late 80's) In all other countries
which they examined, *including* Canada, the ratio is about 3 to 1
or more in favour of men killing their wives more often. This statistic
holds even when you exclude handgun use.

Don't know why that is, and it seems very odd to me. The US is also
very violent; perhaps that just amounts to most of the people who 
might be violent, and that proportion is balanced between the genders.

Anyway, I'm *not* saying that women never assault men. I know of at 
least one case where this has happened. I'm just saying that this
largely American forum ought to think about whether their statistics
represent something general about gender and violence, or whether the
US is an odd place.

> (...)
>As far as I know, this discussion has been about domestic violence and
>who takes the offensive.  We haven't really gotten into the discussion
>of whether the women and men are fighting back abusive mates or just
>hitting them because they can.  
>

In discussions with Margo Wilson (co-author of Homicide), she said that
in the Detroit crime reports she was reading that women are particularly
at risk just after leaving their partner. The homicide scenarios she 
represented as "typical" were: woman leaves, man stalks her down and 
kills her, and woman leaves, man stalks her down, tries something, but 
she kills him. That's anecdotal, and it's about homicide, not domestic
assault, but seemed relevant to the issue above.

Chris.


-- 
Chris Hitchcock, Dept. of Psychology     chris@psych.toronto.edu
University of Toronto      in my new life: clh@vax.ox.ac.uk                 
Toronto, Ontario          UseNet:  I only read it for the  
CANADA  M5S 1A1                         .signatures
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: The Susan B. Anthony Dollar
From: <BXL108@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:27:58 EST
 <2407@newsserver.cs.uwindsor.ca><1j25o6INN85v@shelley.u.washington.edu> <lle3r2INNn5c@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
Organization: Penn State University

SBA's are given as change from public transportaition ticket vending
machines in Philadephia.  I guess dollar coins are the only reasonable way
to give out up to $20 change.  So SBA's aren't completely dead.

Barry Linder                           Penn State University

  /////////////////|@#$%^&*()_+!"}

Newsgroups: soc.women
From: mikep@sr.hp.com (Mike Powell)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Sexual Harassment
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:46:16 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]

: 
: BTW, I watched a PBS "workshop" a couple of months ago where a lawyer
: stated that any unwanted touching by anyone can be considered sexual
: harassment.  In other words, a hetero woman can put her hand on the
: shoulder of another hetero woman and if the touchee doesn't like it,
: asks that it not be done, yet it continues, it is sexual harassment.
: The fact that the toucher doesn't have a sexual interest in the
: touchee doesn't appear to matter.
: 

	Utterly stupid.  This lawyer is describing harassment.
	Which is not to say that this lawyer couldn't actually
	convince a court that such a situation actually is
	sexual harassment.... (which would indicate a utterly stupid
	court) but that as a concept... the idea that *any* touching
	is somehow sexual (which is the implication).  I suppose that
	according to this lawyer, if you hold out your hand to someone
	more than once (as a suggestion to shake hands) and that the
   	'suggestion' is an unwanted attempt at initiating some nasty
	touching, then that too is sexual harassment.  ug.

	-Mike-
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall)
Subject: Re: Hillary's Role in the White House
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 18:28:33 GMT

In article <1k83bjINN3uq@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,) writes:
>
>>perhaps the real reason you 
>>are so quick to defend the appointment is because she's *female*.
>
>No.  It's because she's *competent*.
>-- 
>
>                                                --  Michal
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Impressive amounts of material can be accreted in this manner.


Which is something of an understatement.  She graduated 1st in her class
from Yale Law School (her husband graduated 6th in his class) and she is 
highly acclaimed among her peers.

   
 Janice Kendall    kendall@adobe.com    ...!{decwrl|sun}!adobe!kendall

      Don't Panic!  Clinton will be our *42*nd President.

Newsgroups: soc.women