From: markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Invasion of Time
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 06:24:50 GMT

[preliminary stuff deleted]

Ian Robert Asplin remarks on my meditation on Time Lords etc.

>OK.  Answer me this.   Do you think Susan was a full Time Lord?
>We do know she is from Gallifrey, but do you think she is a Time Lord 
>I don't think she is, because if she were a *full* Time Lord, then
>won't husband David Campbell find it strange when she doesn't age as
>.fast as he does and one day perhaps even physically changes form?
>(to say nothing of the neighbors.  hey, it's a new sitcom folks!
>Be-Time-Lorded :)
>And then ther'e their kids (if they can have any and if they did, 
>but given the decimation of the Earth's population by the Dalek invasion
>I owuld tend to think repopulation was a high priority on everybody's
>minds post-Dalek invasion.)

This is really a non question. Or rather a question with no answer. Remember
that Dr Who is science fiction. We are not trying to deduce the truth
about a real civilisation. All we have to go on are the stories. They contain
the "truth" about the Time Lords. It was never stated that Susan was a Time 
Lord or not. In fact she left before the Time Lords were invented. Thus the
question is meaningless and has no answer. My own opinion however would
be why not? She's a Time Lord. It's like asking is she really the Doctor's
granddaughter. Some people say she wasn't. But the only information we have
from the show is that she was his granddaughter. You can speculate all
you like, but you will not find an answer, because until a story goes to 
]air answering the question, the answer does not exist.

>If there was no distinction between ordinary Gallifreyans and Time Lords,
>then why do we have lines like Rodan's, "The guards and the Time Lords,
>all the boring people," in which she not only sets herself apart from 
>the Time Lords, but sets the guards apart from them too.
>If there was no distinction then why does Runcible say to the public
>register videocast in "the Deadly Assassin,"  "Above me, here in the
>Panopticon, already the Time Lords are gathering, donning seldom-worn
>robes...."  It would be like Dan Rather saying, "here at the inaugriation,
>already the humans are gathering..."

Why do we have Borusa saying "the people must not lose faith in the leadership
of the Time Lords" (paraphrased) or Goth saying "At the moment the Time Lords
are in disarray and leaderless". Both Borusa and Goth are indisputably 
Time Lords. If you substitute the word Government for time lord in these
sentences, it makes sense. Runcible went to Prydon academy with the Doctor,
and Borusa remembered him. So why should Runcible not be a Time Lord.
If Rodan is not a Time Lord, how is she able to pull a Tardis console 
apart and rewire the force field around Gallifrey into it? The books are not
canon, as the startrek people like to say, but the books identify every
Gallifreyan I've checked as a Time Lord. The novel says Andred was a Time 
Lord, and indeed we know he went to the Academy. The gaurd K9 shoots
down before he goes off to blow up the transduction barriers, (which look
like they were made in newcastle in 1950. I agree with you about Invasion
of Time. I thought it was dreadful), is identified as a Time Lord by the novel.
Not official of course, but I' m happy to accept it. I rather like Terrance
Dicks idea in the novel for "The deadly assasin". That not every body on 
Gallifrey is of Time Lord rank. Thus when Rodan talks about "the Time Lords"
it doesn't mean she is  not a member of the time lord race, anymore than 
the Doctor saying to the VArdans "you promised me complete control of the 
Time Lords" means the Doctor is not a Time Lord. Rather she is referring to
a specific group within Time Lord/Gallifreyan society, whom she thinks
of as "the Time Lords" i.e the Cardinals, high Council, senior figures in
the chapters, head of security. Runcible says the Time Lords are gathering
in the Panopticon. Does he mean every single Time Lord. Clearly not. There
are no Time Ladies there for example. id every Time Lord go to the Doctor's
inauguration? No obviously not. I think Runcible meant the Cardinals etc
when he refered to the Time Lords gathering at the resignation. That is
Time Lords of a specific rank. This is just a theory, but it is a least
as valid as your theory. The "truth" can only be revealed by an explicit
statement. "There are gallifreyans who are not Time Lords in any sense of the
word".  I doubt that such a statement will ever be made, but you never know.
My objection is not to the theory, but to people asserting things to fact,
when they are merely opinions and speculation. 

Now a question for you. Assume that there are Gallifreyans who are not 
Time Lords. Why do you think that these ordinary gallifreyans cannot
regenerate? If the Time Lords can give the power of regeneration to the 
Minyans, why would they not give it to the ordinary Gallifreyans? And
in fact why did the 8 in Mawdryn Undead, whom you claim to be ordinary
Gallifreyans steal equipment used to assist in regeneration crises, rather
than the sort of equipment they gave to the Minyans?

Mark C.