HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic)
Subject: Re: The 99.9 %.    (was:  Muslims "Slaughter Their Own People" )
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 00:50:17 GMT

In article <kutluk.716067956@ccl.umist.ac.uk> kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven) writes:
>In <1992Aug26.182530.15133@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>
>>The INDEPENDENT
>>22.August 1992.
>>Published in London
>
>>Front Page
>
>>         MUSLIMS 'SLAUGHTER THEIR OWN PEOPLE'
>
>>--- Bosnia bread queue massacre was propaganda ploy, UN told ----
>>From
>>Leonard Doyle in New York
>
>[..]
>
>-------------------------------
>
>The article, as many have read, had no proof or evidence other than
>hearsay from some anonymous UN sources, nor The Independent have produced
>any supporting article or evidence later on. Reading all major UK
>papers I haven't seen any article of similar perspective either. Also
>the controversial headline of the article is far away from the
>realtively caucious content.
>
>Keep in mind that there have been hundreds of article in UK newspapers
>since the holocaust started. With daily reasons there may be one or
>two isolate ideas, but clearly the overwhelming majority of the UK papers say
>just the opposite, i.e the barbarism of the Serbian army, and of
>course, the campaigners. 
>
>We have the collection of *all* critical articles from major UK papers
>since the start of the crisis, and can eargerly photocopy and post
>them for OCR puposes. 
>
>If the Milan Stajanovich thinks that he can illusion the net by 
>sending Serbian-origin analysts' isolates, or the exceptional 0.01 %, 
>we keep the non-Serbian westerners', and the remaining 99.9 %, which show 
>neither this is anything other than ruthless massacre nor the Bosnian
>Muslims are related with anything fundementalist; 

The fanatic rhetoric of your own letter proves who is the fundamentalist here.

>two facts very well
>in the knowledge of everyone including Mr Stajanovich or his Greek
>dame-de-honours. 

Just a sec, just a sec...I think you got your Milans mixed up here :)

>With Regards and Restraint

Yeah, right!

>Kutluk Ozguven

Milan
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Malenovic Nikola V.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Muslim Slavs loot and burn Serbian homes in Goradze
Date: 5 Sep 92 05:03:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.20170
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network


In article <20168@plains.NoDak.edu> malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Malenovic Nikola V.) writes:
 >-courtesy of SII-
 >
 >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 >
 >Subject: Muslim Slavs loot and burn Serbian homes in Gorazde
 >Date: 4 Sep 92 13:49:39 GMT
 >
 >	GORAZDE, Bosnia-Hercegovina (UPI) -- Encircled and bombarded for five
 >months by Serbian forces, Muslim Slavs have been looting and burning the
 >homes of Serbs who fled with the easing of the siege of this war-ravaged
 >town in eastern Bosnia-Hercegovina.
[deleted]...
 >	Mayor Hadzo Efendic denied that Muslim Slav residents were exacting
 >vengence on their former neighbors, contending that the Serbs had burned
 >their own homes and slaughtered their own pigs.
[deleted]...

this is what I call 'kadija te tuzi, kadija ti sudi'.

Anyway, so I suppose I can claim that Crats were actually burning and
shelling Vukovar by themselves? ;) (those sarcasam-ignoratn should take SARC
101)...

Nik
--
From: susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu (Susan Soric)
Subject: Chicago Demonstration 9/19/92
Followup-To: alt.activism.d
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu
Organization: Univ. of Chicago
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 00:06:19 GMT

There will be a massive demonstration
in downtown Chicago at 2 p.m. Saturday,
September 19 at Daley Plaza, sponsored
by a coalition of Muslims, Christians, and
peace and justice groups united in their
call to end the arms embargo against
Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia.

The demonstration will call for
the American public to protest U.S. Pres.
Bush's policy of inaction in the Balkans.

For more information, call the Balkan
Action Coalition of Chicago at:

(312) 829-2255 or (312) 384-8544

Disclaimer: The abovementioned announcement
is provided by the sender alone, and has no
connection whatsoever with the University of
Chicago.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski)
Subject: Again about the star
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 11:27:36 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

Some days ago I've posted a few lines about the Macedonian star and
I've said it was not unique. I don't know what the Greeks mean with
their star, but the new Macedonian star (on the flag) is actually
a stylicised SON with 16 arms. Same (or almost same) sons you could
find on some church flags (in Macedonia) and on some icons. The
Greeks have discovered their star somewhere in 1970, but haven't
used it, and the symbols I'm talking about were open for all of us
(for centuries).

I've also said something about the star of the University of Utrecht,
the Netherlands, now some extra information: Its star is also a SON,
and its style has changed sveral times in its history, which dates
for 3 and half centuries, from 1634. In 1818 it was strictly officially
used, and the last change on its style was on the 19 of June 1992
(this year). One important thing is that its arms and their number
have (always) changed. The first one has 32 arms, the second one
(in 1636) 16 (main) arms.



Maybe there are other (similar) stars (ie. sons), in other countries.

Regards,
Goce.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.greek
From: sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS)
Subject: Spy Boss unclocks to dismiss document. (Mak)
Followup-To:  soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Originator: sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU
Organization: Dept. Engineering Computer Resources, Melbourne Uni.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:13:13 GMT


        Spy boss uncloaks to dismiss document
        from Adam Connolly


	Canberra: Australia's spy boss has made an unprecedented public 
appearance to discredit a forged ASIO document which was aimed at inciting
violence in ethnic communities.

	Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASEO) director-general
Mr David Sadlier called a press conference yesterday to label the single-page
paper a fraud.

	Titled Asio-Strictly Confidental, the document says Greeks, Serbs and 
Bulgarian secret agents have infiltrated Macedonian communities in Melbourne.

	The document says agents have gained access to the Macedonian language
media. "They have proliferated disinformation aimed at destabilising the pre-
sent Macedonian government and its leadership," it says.

	The report says the activities do not pose a security risk to Austra-
lia but could provoke community unrest. It says further surveillance will be
mounted.

	Mr Sadlier said the format, style and language of the paper were in-
consistent with normal ASIO threat assessments[!].....  "We are not spying 
on any of these communities."

	The Federation of Macedonian Associations said it had already dis-
missed the document as a hoax.

:-)

in "The Advertiser" from Friday, September 4th, 1992


{Macedonian and south-Slavs proverb: "Wherever there is smoke, must be fire" }
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

{My impression : Everybody can take a computer terminal to spread his/hers
version of history, in the name of a particular nation }

***************************************************************************
"I understand the world only as a field for cultural competition between 
the nations " GOCE DELCEV (1872-1903)
***************************************************************************
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Gorazde
Date: 8 Sep 1992 23:38:09 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

-----------------------------------------------------------

            ETHNIC CLEANSING OPERATION IN GORAZDE

    Paris, Sept 6th - The Paris dailu Liberation on Sept 6th
said that Moslem forces were "systematicaly destroing Serb
disricts around Gorazde, looting villages and masacring the
population".
    This is happening following the withdrawal of units of
the Serb army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from their positions
around Gorazde, which was done in accordance with the
obligations taken over Conference on Yugoslavia in London,
Liberation said.
    The "Liberation of villages around Gorazde is very
peculiar", special correspondent Didier Francois said,
describing bodies of Serbs lying in the ditches beside their
automobiles riddled with bullets, Serbs who failed to be
ready in time to withdraw with the Serb army units from
Gorazde.
    Francois described in detail Moslem "attack and looting
of Serb homes". He said he saw scores of Moslems on the road
to Gorazde, wheeling carts loaded with loot stollen from
Serb villages. He said that this roberry was "encouraged by
the police and the army".
    The reporter said that Moslem troops were setting fire
to Serb farms and houses. Not a single Serb house has been
spared, he said, estimating that this was meant as a sign to
its owner that he should never return.
    Based on everything he saw in Gorazde, Francois
concluded that this was a classic implementation of a policy
of ethnic cleansing, in the cruelest form. He underscored
that Moslem officials were cynically trying to persuade him
that the "authors of these deeds are the Serbs themselves".
    Thanks to all this, the number of Serbs in Gorazde has
dropped from the once 25 percent to a mere five percent.

[ source: TANJUG news agency ]
From: guncer@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (Otomatik Portakal )
Subject: Re: The goal of an intervention
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 07:53:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.233109.23325@cc.uow.edu.au>, cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic) writes:
> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
> 
> >One may claim that the goal for an armed action in B-H is to
> >resurrect B-H as an independent state, but can someone tell me
> >what kind of B-H we are to resurrect?
> >a) A Muslim-Croat state with the Serbs driven out of B-H?
> >b) A Muslim state with the Serbs and Croats driven out of B-H,
> >   possibly with some parts sliced off to Croatia?
> >c) A Muslim-Serb-Croat state, that is like B-H was a Yugoslav
> >   republic, but now as an independent state.
> >d) Something else.
> 
> You should stop discussing Bosnian issues, since you definitely don't
> understand them.  We are neither tribes, nor religious fanatics there,
> but it is futile trying to explain.

I think Sommarskog has a point here. I am still searching for a PC valid
answer to what is the distinction between Serbians and Bosnians. Ethnic?
Historic? What? Religion? Is that why "Orthodox" Slavs are massacring
"Muslim" Slavs? 

> 
> As to your questions and nice alternatives, let me tell you that we, Bosnians,
> do know solution.  Just get rid off please, and wait to outcome.  See you in
> a year, and you would be very surprised.
> 

I'd also like to hear at least a small "hint" about this solution
of yours. My solution is for UN to occupy Yugoslavia and set up
a provisional government. Similar to post WWII Germany and Japan.
I don't think people who divide themselves because of religious 
stupidities deserve to rule a country. The "true" believers will inevitably
continue killing the "untrue" believers if left alone. 

You are no different from Liliputians arguing over which side
of the egg you break first.

> >Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
> >"Recreation of source code from design documentation can be costly"
> >IEEE Std 1042/1987
> 
> Muris

What are "atheist" Bosnians and Serbs called? Croats?

Selim Guncer

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8532 soc.culture.greek:8527
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Macedonia: History and Reality
Date: 5 Sep 92 21:31:01 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
>On the Macedonian Matter:
>
>          This letter is dedicated to the Freedom Fighters
>                of Macedonia E V E R Y W H E R E
>
>        MACEDONIA: HISTORY AND REALITY
>....

Thanks for posting this. Without competetion the best thing I've
ever read in soc.culture.greek. Very carefully prepared. As Richard
Wallace observed: not a single correct fact. (Although Luben apparently 
found a few places where the author had slipped and got a few things
right.) I chuckled of laughters all the way through.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
"Recreation of source code from design documentation can be costly"
IEEE Std 1042/1987
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: victor@jezebel.wustl.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Subject: Re: The goal of an intervention
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 20:40:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.191310.23717@cs.yale.edu> pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
>And then didn't the German led EC go ahead and recognize B&H anyway, which
>then ignited the war in B&H?
>
>Sharon, it is people like you and other Westerners who urged the recognition
>of Izetbegovic's B&H who are primarily at fault for the war there.
>The West should be ashamed for what it did, because it needlessly unleashed
>a civil war in a country that could have found a peaceful, political, 
>solution to its problems, only if it had pressed Mr. Izetbegovic to find a
>diplomatic solution.

This argument does not hold water, since a previous example --- Croatia ---
was attacked by Yugoslavia months before recognition by the EC.  There the
war largely ended concurrently with EC recognition in January 1992.  Of
course, recognition per se had little effect on the ground: the successes of
the Croatian Army were much more important.

Rump Yugoslavia was warned plenty of times to keep its hands off Bosnia while
the Bosnians found their own independent solution.  It ignored this warning
and invaded across the Drina anyway, concurrently with EC recognition of BiH.
This invasion is what destabilized Bosnia, not the diplomacy.  That war will
likewise end when the Bosnian government achieves military victory or at
least equality with the invaders.

>Milan

Regards,
Victor

----
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser (314)935-6771  <victor@jezebel.wustl.edu>
Dept. of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO  63130  USA

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.greek
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Yu
Date: 7 Sep 1992 01:11:00 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

                    Tanjug agency news on 3rd of September


    SERBIAN BAR ASSOCIATION ON SEIZURE OF SERB PROPERTY IN CROATIA

    Belgrade, Sept. 3rd (TANJUG) - The Serbian Bar Association intends to ask
the International Bar Association and the U.N. Human Rights Commission to
request from Croatia a report on the position of Serbs and Serb property in that
republic, the Belgrade daily Vecernje Novosti reports on Thursday. In an open
letter to the public, the Serbian Bar Association says that it has been
following for quite some time the instances of gross violation of human rights
of Serbs in Croatia and seizure of their property. The first step towards such
abuses was made in the July 1991 decision on special republican taxes for the
use of office space and undeveloped lots, which relates exclusively to the
property of Serbian citizens, says the association. This was followed by the
Croatian citizenship law of October 1991, under which the Serbs became
foreigners in Croatia, the electorate law which gives the right to vote only to
Croatian citizens, and the law on property owned by foreigners. The position of
Serbs in Croatia was further worsened by the april 1992 law on the employment of
foreigners, under which foreigners and persons who do nott hold Croatian
citizenship can work in Croatia only with work permits valid for one year at
most. Shortly before the introduction of U.N. sanctions against the Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia on May 30, this year, the Croatian Finance Ministry
issued a decree banning physical and legal persons from the Federal Republic of
Yugoslavia from engaging in any financial transaction in Croatia. The Croatian
Justice Ministry then banned the sale of property owned by the citizens of the
federal republic of Yugoslavia, in Croatia. The process which began two years
ago, needs a final blow to be complete - confiscation of all Serb property in
Croatia and the expulsion of Serbs from that republic, unless they obtain
special permits as foreigners and take Croatian citizenship after renouncing
their Serbian names and religion, says the Serbian Bar Association.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: markf@sco.COM (mark forry)
Subject: why the hatred?
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:00:05 GMT


A few days ago, I heard an interview with one of the UN troops
in Sarajevo (I believe it was on NPR).  He said that in all his
years of service, he has encountered more hatred in Sarajevo
than in all his other postings combined.  Can anyone tell me:
where does all this hatred come from?

I can understand the feelings of the young Serb soldier quoted
in Time last week, that after seeing his family killed by
Muslims it doesn't bother him at all to kill Muslims in return.
I would probably feel hatred in that situation, although I'd
like to think that I wouldn't kill someone in return, purely for
revenge.  But whence the hatred of those who began the shooting,
in Slavonia last fall and Bosnia this spring?  Of the gunners
who damaged Dubrovnik and leveled Vukovar?  Of the pilots who
are dropping cluster bombs and napalm on Bihac and Jajce?  I don't 
think it's possible that all those who are pumping sniper rounds and
mortar shells into homes, churches, mosques, libraries and
hospitals are all responding to personal family losses.  Where
does this hatred come from?

It would be easier for me to grasp if I could believe the
international media oversimplifications of "age-old ethnic
hatreds."  However, that isn't my experience.  I've been in
Sarajevo three or four times in the last 12 years, and my
impression was that everybody got along very well, in fact,
liked each other and liked the patchwork that made Bosnia what
it was.  Even two years, when rhetoric from Beograd (and to some
extent Zagreb) was quite inflamed, I still didn't feel such
intense, personalized hatred as is rampant now.  Certainly,
everybody felt ugrozen (threatened or oppressed or aggrieved,
depending on how you look at it), and with good reason, since
the economy was already a wreck.  But it seems that in each
republic I visited (except Montenegro and Kosovo, although I
have no reason to believe it's otherwise there), each person
felt that their group was MORE ugrozen than anyone else.
Perhaps it's only a short step from saying "I'm worse off than
anyone else" to "THEY are doing it to me" to "I hate THEM."  You
can certainly see that sort of "logic" at work even in wealthy
countries like Germany or the USA.  Even so, I still can't grasp
the incredible levels of hatred that have been attained in
Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, Serbia and Vojvodina.

Does anyone have any ideas about this?

-- 
Mark Forry                I liked it better when healing the planet 
Technical Publications    meant long hair and rock music and marching 
The Santa Cruz Operation  against the war, when it meant telling
uunet!sco!markf           everyone else what needed to be changed.
markf@sco.COM                           -- Sy Safransky
(408) 427-7509            Standard disclaimers apply.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: wickerhauser-victor@CS.YALE.EDU (Victor Wickerhauser)
Subject: Re: Camps
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:34:31 GMT

On Nov 5, Elie Wiesel will speak at Washington University on various
subjects concerning crimes against humanity, specifically including
the Serbian concentration camps in Bosnia.  All are welcome at his lecture.

Regards,
Victor
From: pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic)
Subject: Re: M A C E D O N I A   by  Ante Popovski
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:41:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.151910.2029@sunbim.be> sk@sunbim.be () writes:
>
>
>
>The original macedonian version (~1970y) and the english translation. 
>Enjoy the song thoroughly !!!!!!!!!
>
>	   M A C E D O N I A 
>           by  Ante Popovski
>{Ante Popovski is a contemporary Macedonian writer}
>
>Oh, here it is   that simple land of shrivel and waiting
				      ^^^^^^^
>She learnt the stars to whisper on macedonian
>And no one acknowledges her.
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>        M A K E D O N I J A                   
>O, eve ja taa prosta zemja od grch i od chekanje
			       ^^^^
>Shto gi nauchi i s*vezdite da sheptat na makedonski
>A nikoj ne ja znae.
>

"Grch" sounds an anwful lot like "Grchki", which means "Greek".  So the funny
thing is, if we just added the "ki", the song would end with:

Oh, here it is   that simple land of Greece and waiting
She learnt the stars to whisper on macedonian
And no one acknowledges her.

Conveniently proving my point, which is:
===============================================================================
		M A C E D O N I A  =  H E L L A S
===============================================================================

Regards,
Milan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: nils@suca01.cern.ch (Nils-Joar Hoimyr)
Subject: Re: WHO'S THE BIGGER NAZI?
Keywords: Stop stirring up hatred
Organization: CERN European Lab for Particle Physics
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 08:15:33 GMT

Oops, here is a guy with fatalistic attitudes..


Attitudes like the ones of Damir Matanic (11990, Re: WHO I THE BIGGER NAZI) are not much better than
the ones of the ^&*($ Serbian military groups shelling poor civilians in Bosnia.  What the world should do 
is to punish war-criminals and the Milosevic goverment supporting them,
not the people of Serbia itself.  (A @$$% diffucult task).   

A more important step towards a better world would be to prevent people like Damir Matanic and
all the Serbian- and Croatian extremist from getting weapons.   There is enough hatred in ex-Yugo already, 
you do not need to make it worse.


regards, Nils
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski)
Subject: Re: Greece and democracy
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:52:56 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

In <rsakella.716057147@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou) writes:

>naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski) writes:
>
>>a story about the Thrace and the Turkish population living there.
>>They are called "Greek Muslims" by the Greeks, they have no right to
>>call themselves Turks.
>
>You are wrong... The Greeks call them Muslims according to the terms of the
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Lauzanne Treaty, signed between Greece and Turkey in 1923, which settled 
>the problems of the Christian minority in Turkey and the Muslim minority 
>in Thrace.

In the story were speaking Turks and Greeks. Greeks (should be
Greek authorities) have called them "Greek Muslims", but the Turks
(who were speaking there) have said "We are Turks".
>--r.
>PS : Do you think that the Pomaks are Turks?

The story was not attended to the Pomaks, but to the Turkish minority.
I hope you know the difference.

Goce.

PS. The name (Greek Muslims, or Turks) is just the one of the problems
    that were shown, and I hope you have noticed the behavior of the
    Greek authorities against the journalists.