HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jim@rand.org (Jim Gillogly)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Tom Brown and Harry Flashman
Date: 13 Jan 93 01:16:02 GMT
Organization: Banzai Institute

In article <1993Jan11.132558.7816@ecrc.de> sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:
>Incidentally, Lola Montez -- quite a remarkable woman, anyone seen a
>biography on her? -- was actually Scottish or Irish.

Yes, I have one: "Lola Montez", by Amanda Darling, 1972, ISBN 0-8128-1436-3.
Quite serviceable, and yes, she was quite a character.  The beginning
epigram from her Lectures is "Even my many enemies must admit I always had
a flair for living." The preface also points out that she wrote an
autobiography.  It's hard to say just what her nationality was.  She was
born in Ireland, where her father (a decorated Waterloo veteran) was
stationed at the time; he was not Irish: presumably English or Scottish.
Her mother may have been Spanish... but she gave so many conflicting
unsubstantiated stories that it's hard for her biographer to tell where
the truth lies.  She evidently started out simply "Betty Gilbert", before
adding the rest of her names: Maria Dolores Eliza Rosanna.  In any case,
she did an excellent job of inventing herself.

>>                                                        There is more to 
>>Tom Brown than treacle, and more to Flashman than haha. They both record
>>an extraordinary time that came and went within one hundred years.
>
>Ah yes, the time Britain picked up the ball and changed the rules of the game.

And nobody before George MacDonald Frazer noticed that they were LBW for the
entire period.
-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Sunday, 22 Afteryule S.R. 1993, 01:16
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: A very short campus novel
Date: 10 Jan 1993 15:56:27 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Ken Miner writes:

	Academics are like accountants. They know the value of the 
	treasure, and its location.  But it does not belong to them.

Unfortunately this is not quite how it works. We have had the recent case
where the Halls of Academe echoed with the shrill cries of those who thought
it almost criminal that someone should make the drafts to *Finnegans Wake*
accessible to a wide audience, and I myself have been waiting ten years for
a learned but lazy professor publish a previously unpublished horde of
Thomas Love Peacock's letters. OUP announced these for publication 10 yrs
ago! So, yes, they know where the treasures are, but will not comment on
their location until they are finished with them or have got tenure, or
whatever. Its a shame that these folk could not be encouraged in some
fashion to stake early claim by the equivalent *of a Letter to Nature.

							RABworm
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Stark Naked
Date: 7 Jan 1993 16:35:58 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <1987@spam.ua.oz> jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1992Dec24.163528.12806@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec23.233225.529@u.washington.edu> hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless) writes:
>
>>>In the mid-70s, a UW law student told me that he had become acquainted
>>>with a trio of fellow students named (he swore it was true):  Swindler,
>>>Lawless, and Moneymaker.  Ah, if only they had set up a practice together!
>
>>       I once had an optometrist: Dr B.D. Eagle
>
>I used to drive past one called Dr C. Wright. Unfortunately after at
>least 10 years he changed his sign to Dr Charles Wright and then left
>his office. I have no idea where he is now or if he still practises.
>-- 
>Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
>jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
>Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
>One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.

To further warp the thread, I bring forth *********** the weird business. 
Each day, on my way to work, I pass this business:  The Dental Espresso. 
Seems this dental hygienist set up in business for himself, installing an
espresso machine in the waiting room.

BTW, Joseph, do you, as do I, get rude attempts at jokes on your name?  

Mary Loveless
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ve3pak@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Alayne McGregor and Brett Delmage)
Subject: Re: Clapshot (was: Celebrating McGonagall)
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC., Orleans (Ont)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:25:32 GMT

In article <11JAN93.03504798@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>Clapshot is a side dish that consists of equal amounts of mashed potato and
>yellow turnip whipped together, with sauteed minced onion and chopped parsley
>added (and butter and milk and salt and pepper).  It's not that unhealthy if
>you go easy on the butter and milk, which we don't.  Recipes for it appear in
>_The Scots Kitchen_ by F. Marian McNeill, _The Scottish Cookbook_ by Sheila
>Macrae, and _Modern Ways With Traditional Scottish Recipes_ by Rosalie Gow. 
>The OED had better get its act together. 

We had this all the time when I was a child (minus the onions and parsley),
but we just called it turnip-potatoes. I always thought it was German
or Scandinavian, since that's my mother's ancestry (my father did not
have a large influence on the menu in our house).

Alayne McGregor
alayne@ve3pak.ocunix.on.ca
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Celebrating McGonagall
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 05:58:28 GMT

In article <1i5cp7INN54r@shelley.u.washington.edu> twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) writes:
>In article <1993Jan2.224613.12367@psych.toronto.edu> dsy@psych.toronto.edu 
>(Desiree Sy) writes:
>>In article <9932npr@rpi.edu> kasprj@rpi.edu writes:
>>>|> William McGonagall (1825-1902) was one of the
>>>|> lesser lights of Victorian poetry -- indeed, some would say, among
>>>|> the very dimmest lights -- a handloom weaver from Dundee who styled
>>>|> himself a Poet and Tragedian.  Those who have been exposed to his
>>>|> deathless verse can never quite forget it.

>>Is this the man who wrote those series of (for lack of a better
>>word) verses on the beautiful bridge on the silvery Tey?  If so,
>>please *do* list any titles of his collected editions -- I'd love
>>to get my hands on a set.  This is some of the best bad poetry
>>I've ever heard (to give you some idea of how memorable his stuff
>>is, I last heard the beautiful bridge on the silvery Tey stuff
>>when I was 15).

>Can one of you fans explain to me what's so appealing about this stuff?

It's funny.  *Very* funny.

>I can see that it's worth a chuckle in passing, but not investing in 
>volumes of it for your library, reading it again and again, and 
>celebrating it annually. 

Well, consider that William Zaranka, editor of the Brand-X Anthology
of Poetry (A Parody Anthology) used MacGonagall's verse as a parody of 
itself.  (Another one of the disaster poems, for what it's worth.)

>Would I be off the mark in assuming that you take pleasure in 
>his inanity, as you might that of a dotty uncle?  

Partly.  Also his dead seriousness, lack of irony, stunning abuse of 
meter, willingness to stretch for a rhyme, tin ear, inability to sort
wheat from chaff, and insistence on complete accuracy.  

>And do you have to have been there when he was smoking his cigar? 

No.  But get a Hoffnung record -- either the original 1956 Royal
Festival Hall recording or the 1988 re-recording (with Eleanor Bron
reading in a thick brogue) and listen to the verses come clunking
down.  The badness shines through, and is enhanced by the goofy
musical accompaniment.  (The poem is "The Famous Tay Whale.")

MacGonagall is worth reading, if only to note the difference between
him and other poets.  See how Ogden Nash gets away with things that,
when MacG does them, we only groan.  See how even Twain's parodies of
Julia Moore, the Sweet Singer of Michigan -- or even Julia Moore --
can't compare.  Work your way through the entire Stuffed Owl and see 
how MacG distills all the awfulness into a single couplet -- not that
he ever left well enough alone with a single couplet...

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Text of CO2 and OR9
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 16:41:25 GMT

                                        Saturday, the 9th of January, 1993

Mikhail Zeleny reminds me that I have left our earlier
discussion in abeyance:
  As for your moral assertion, I take it to be the height of moral
  irresponsibility on your part, to repeat it after having failed to
  convict me, or, for that matter, Plato and Kant, of promulgating bad
  moral philosophy.

As I recall, I did not agree with your assertion that sex has
a morally generative purpose. I think I did agree with you finally
that your logic was fine, that it came down to a disagreement about
what moral assumptions one should make. I think your moral assumptions
are wrong (in that they fail to understand the nature of sex, and
its moral purpose). I do not now wish to carry on that discussion,
however, for I think it merits more time than the present flurry
allows me. Why you should think it irresponsible of me to assert that
condemning homosexual intercourse is morally wrong, merely because
you have not yet been publicly convinced of it, is beyond my powers
to understand the vast moral edifice you have evidently constructed.

                       Mike Morris
              (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homeschooling (spp's response to multiple posts)
Date: 6 Jan 1993 20:56:44 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
NNTP-Posting-Host: zion.berkeley.edu

Heather writes:

> I don't see why you have the right to "strongly discourage" 
> individuals from homeschooling their own children any more than 
> fundamentalists have a right to harass women who want to 
> have abortions.

This isn't a discussion about "rights".  It's a discussion
about whether homeschooling is having an undesirable effect
on society.  If I assess that this is the case, why shouldn't
I strongly discourage it?

Also, the comparison to abortion rights is spurious.
Homeschooling is *not* a privacy issue.

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Paglia
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1993Jan8.212042.5346@spdcc.com> <1993Jan8.234504.20824@eff.org>
	<9JAN93.03010199@vax.clarku.edu>
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:08:24

I don't think that self-promotion, per se, is especially denounced
in those women in fields where it is common.  Did the people who
denounced Paglia for self-promotion also denounce Madonna for the
same thing, i.e. not for other sins?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Legal theory, Homophobia, and the Bible
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:15:00 GMT

In article <1iq3puINNmee@ARGENTINA.AI.CS.YALE.EDU> engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu writes:
>In article <MATT.93Jan6100949@physics2.berkeley.edu>, matt@physics2.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes:
>|> In article <1if16iINNcnr@ARGENTINA.AI.CS.YALE.EDU> engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu (Sean P. Engelson) writes:

>|> > Well, what exactly did the measures say?  I happen to be of the belief
>|> > that it's generally better not to single out certain groups for a
>|> > special "do not discriminate" status, both because this implicitly
>|> > encourages discrimination against other groups not so listed, and
>|> > because it affords certain sorts of grouping legal (hence, objective)
>|> > status, some of which groupings I may not believe should have such.

>|> One can, I suppose, argue that all civil rights legislation ought to
>|> be abolished, and that it ought to be legal to discriminate against
>|> whomever you please in whatever manner you please.  I don't agree with
>|> that position (I think that the reality of employment and housing
>|> discrimination is sufficiently hurtful to people that we as a society
>|> shouldn't tolerate it), but at least it's consistent.

>Not at all what I meant.  Rather, that civil rights legislation should
>be drawn with a brush of the proper width, rather than enacted
>piecemeal for every self-styled interest group that comes along.
>Something along the lines of "No discrimination in employment shall be
>permitted except regarding necessary qualifications for the job
>specified." (In appropriate legalese, of course).  The question of
>relevance in discrimination suits is properly left to the courts.

That said, one should note that that *is* the basic wording of civil
rights legislation.  To be sure, certain classes are enumerated: 
races, sexes, age groups.  

>This avoids singling out certain groups as "special" in that
>membership in *that* group confers discrimination-inviolability.  It

Very few such groups exist.  Mostly things are done the way you suggest.
Unfortunately, we have lots of courts, which produce conflicting 
results at times, with the result that nobody is served well by
fluctuating standards.  Most people *want* a bit of certainty.

Most people, it should be noted, also don't like courts to make 
law.  

>may also have the effect of reducing spurious lawsuits by members of
>such a group, alleging illegal discrimination where none exists.

I don't see how.  Precedent is still there; and whether the law says
"Black" or not, one can sue on grounds that one was dismissed for
being black.

>BTW, after having read the text of the measures under discussion, I
>must say that I disagree with them both, and find the Oregon measure
>rather repugnant (and me a former Oregonian!).

Yes, reading them does help!  (Also seeing who's behind them...)

Roger
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Confirmed Biblioholics
Date: 4 Jan 1993 17:33:36 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Meg Worley writes:

	In all this discussion of biblioholics' bedrooms, I don't
	recall having seen anyone admitting to incorporating books
	and/or reading creatively into their sexlives.  Although
	I decline to give details, my beamish boy and I must plead
	GUILTY.

Your typical male Lesser RABworm understands the unfair advantage that the
missionary position affords for combining Lex and Sex.

							Greater RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: arc2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (AMY CHARLES)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: 1992 in Review
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:51:24 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1993Jan5.001511.10724@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, dave@cs.arizona.ed
u (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.210901.3166@psych.toronto.edu>, dsy@psych (Desiree Sy) wri
tes:
>[...]
>>Salomon is (was?) the film critic for the Wall Street Journal.
>
>WSJ has a *film critic*?  I never would've guessed it...
>
>--
>[An intertialess drive] is not probable at all, at least in any extrapolation
>of present-day science.  But as far as I can determine, it cannot be proved
>absolutely impossible, and that is enough for me.        -E. E. "Doc" Smith
>
Hey, don't underrate WSJ.  Once you get past the cruelly capitalist editorial
bias you'll find one of the finest newspapers alive.  A former staffer tells
me editors routinely spend a full day on a single story, something unheard of
elsewhere.  And even if you're not interested in OPEC or GATT, many of the
stories are so well-written they'll suck you in anyway.  I especially
recommend the front page center and far left columns, arts/op pages, and
second section front page.

----

Amy Charles
Allentown PA

"As round the world I travel, I meet all kind of men
Some rob you with a six-gun and some with a fountain pen;
Though round the world I've traveled, and round the world I roam
I've yet to see an outlaw drive a family from their home."

                                -- the Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: bhanafee@picasso.ads.com (Brian Hanafee)
Subject: Re: ISBN information wanted
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems, Mountain View, CA 94043, +1 (415)
	960-7300
	<4JAN199311001785@milori.ccit.arizona.edu>
Distribution: world,local
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:26:10 GMT


In article <4JAN199311001785@milori.ccit.arizona.edu> stoddard@milori.ccit.arizona.edu (MJ STODDARD) writes:
>In article <1993Jan3.220511.6901@iitmax.iit.edu>, thsskem@iitmax.iit.edu (Kevin Edward Marth) writes...
>>I am attempting the somewhat brain-dead task of entering all the books
>>I own into a database (i.e. title,author,type,isbn,price,publisher,etc)
>> 
>
>Consider telneting to a library near you (electronically speaking)
>and capturing the full record for your own library.  This has the
>advantage of eliminating typos, as well.

Having worked in a past life for one of the providers of catalog
records (You didn't think those rich librarians typed them all in
themselves, did you?), I offer the following pearls:

1. Depending on how sharp your ethical razor is, you might consider that
many (most?) online catalog entries are copyrighted, so just copying
them isn't necessarily kosher.  I'm sure others in this group can
comment on how well the copyright would stand up legally, but I do
remember dutifully attaching copyright notices to the headers of every
electronic record that was sent out.

2. The comment about eliminating typos isn't really guaranteed.  The
company I worked for ran a shop in a rather depressed area of
Scotland, where local housewives (usually) were hired to do all the
typing.  Picture about 30 women in a room typing from microfilmed
library catalog cards.  Every two hours or so, the "tea lady" wheels
her tipsy cart down the aisle, and each gets a short tea break as she
passes.  A few errors creep in.

3. The format of the records is often a variant of MARC or USMARC,
which is an ANSI standard, so it should be possible to extract
whatever you need very reliably if you can persuade whatever system
the library uses to present you with the underlying record.

4.  Neither price nor ISBN are required fields.  The Library of
Congress card number is often a more reliable key than ISBN, BTW, at
least when the book is actually in the United States Library of
Congress.

--
Brian Hanafee                         Advanced Decision Systems
bhanafee@ads.com                      1500 Plymouth Street
(415) 960-7300                        Mountain View, CA 94043-1230
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: academic settings
Date: 11 Jan 1993 02:54:26 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Mike Godwin writes:

	This seems as good a time as any to post the obligatory 
	monthly recommendation of A.S. Byatt's POSSESSION.

Our gentle readers should understand that for Mike Godwin Possession
truly is nine points of the law.

						RABworm

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rodin@vax.ftp.com  (Jonathan Rodin)
Subject: Re: Blinded by the light/I'm your penis
Nntp-Software: PC/TCP NNTP
Reply-To: rodin@ftp.com
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., Wakefield, MA
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 09:13:04

In article <1993Jan5.054511.11384@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>    "Blinded by the Light"
>      by Manfred Mann

Written by Bruce Springsteen.  From his first album "Greetings from Asbury 
Park".  Covered by Manfred  Mann.

Jon
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:01:36 CST
From: Cole Kendall <U48073@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: academic settings
Distribution: usa

In article <1993Jan12.195607.10633@ide.com>, nemet@ide.com (Todd Nemet) says:
>
>     _Book:  A Novel_ by Robert Grudin takes place mostly
>at an imaginary college called Washagon University.  Most
>of the plot deals with the disappearance of an English
>professor and the nasty politics within the English depart-
>ment.  (The Bad Guys are the literary theorists and the
>Good Guys are the regular English teachers.)
>
These politics are also explored (at a different level) in _A New Life_
by Bernard Malamud, a novel I read shortly after moving to Oregon to
teach at a state university, although not the same state university
at which Malamud taught, which contains a delightful nonacademic scene
involving the young professor, a young woman, and a cow.

Cole Kendall
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: pm@cc.univie.ac.at (Peter Marksteiner)
Subject: Re: Quotation from Waugh: BRIDESHEAD REVISITED
Organization: Vienna University Computer Center
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:46:13 GMT
From: bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 5 Jan 1993 18:50:56 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Doug M opines:

And, to conclude, a rhetorical question: if Science graduates (and
therefore Engineers) write as well as English graduates, why do
companies not cease hiring technical writers at all, and include a
several-week period at the end of every development cycle for the
engineers to write their own doc?  It would be much cheaper and -- if
your statement is correct -- the doc would be just as well written, and
almost certainly more accurate.

I say to that:
  In my 22+ years as a cartographer, I've worked in both the
oil patch, academia, other engineering (consulting), and gov-
ernment. The turn around time is much better when there is an
editorial staff of tech writers etc and everyone drinks much
less Maalox. It seems that when the engineers must do their
own reports/pubs to completion they must wade through new 
revs of WP software, printers, typography, etc thus losing
any momentum supposedly gained by this. 
  An editorial staff of high caliber (usually) makes for a
much more amiable set of working conditions...and fewer Maalox
bottles lying about.
-- 
Ted....
From: ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung)
Subject: Re: Rilke-Translation by S.Mitchell
Originator: schung@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 03:11:50 GMT

In article <C0EE7A.47J@srgenprp.sr.hp.com> blaisec@sr.hp.com (Blaise Cirelli) writes:
# I wanted to compare translations of Rilke's poetry. I compared
# Stephen Mitchell's translations against others. I was trying not
# to like Stephen Mitchell since he seems to be the rage today. If 
# you live in the S.F. Bay area his books are everywhere.
# 
# However, I must admit that I found his translations to be much
# superior than all of the other translators.

Yes, but the introductions are so much worse.  Some are better than others
(Notebooks is pretty good, if memory serves).  But the one to Letters
almost defies belief.

Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:24201 sci.logic:2545
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Doctrines of Maybe: 7 truth values
Date: 7 Jan 1993 18:54:24 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Ian Heavens writes:

	One of the post-Alexander Bactrian kingdoms (Kushan?) supposedly 
	had the following 4-value logic:

		True
		False
		Neither True Nor False
		Both True And False

When I was in Papua, the people I worked with had the following numbering
system:

	One
	Two
	Many

I can see an advantage to such a simple numbering system and a multi-
valued logic.

					RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books