HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stgprao@xing.unocal.com (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: three dimensional fractals
Originator: stgprao@xing
Organization: Unocal Corporation, Anaheim, California
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:08:37 GMT

In article <1992Apr3.170833.1@acfcluster.nyu.edu> reznick@acfcluster.nyu.edu writes:
>i'm trying to create a three dimensional koch snowflake.
>if anyone knows of any kind of algorith to do this, or could help me,
>i would be very appreciative.  the snowflake will be composed of 
>equal lateral triangular pyramids.

I think some graphics modelling packages have this built-in.
The feature is called stellation (sp?) (making "star-like") of a solid body.
One grows a pyramidal body from each flat face in infinite-regression.
(Some fractal landscape algorithms work this way for a triangulated surface.)
This is clear to me for a tetrahedron with little tetrahedral pyramids,
but I don't know how well generalizes to other shapes.

Many 3D graphics programs keep a database of vertices and topology to connect
them.  Given a triangle oriented in 3-space, add three new triangles consisting
of the midpoints of each side and the off-plane point of the center.
To compute the off-plane point, you have to computer the planar normal to
the triangle and extend that  line the altitude of a tetrahedron.
Once the four near points are entered into the point list, then the three
triangles using the four points are entered into the topology list.
Also you should use a consistant ordering method for the three points of the
triangle, e.g. always clockwise, so that the normal always points outward
from the solid body.
KIf you are familar with recursive programming, and have a computer language
that supports this, then it is not too hard to do.
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Satan's power
Date: 17 Apr 92 10:05:59 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Turku

I was last Tuesday with a friend of mine, Seija, going from door to door 
(like JW's :-) , first time in my life. We got in to two student apartments.
The first guy we talked with was OK; we saw almost immediately that he was
a believer. But the second guy...

He *knew* everything. He said he believed in Jesus, in trinity, the
resurrection, (virgin birth was a bit hard for him), that man is saved
by 'surrendering'; giving himself. And he said he had given himself to Jesus.
But he had never given himself TOTALLY to God.

So...

His understanding of the correct meaning of everyday words had begun to 
faint away. His sense of logic had begun to faint away. He was very 
interested in studying occultic things; he had three 'paintings' made 
of Tarot cards on the wall.

Then, suddenly, he said he was like in a dark room, and as soon as he 
finds all the furniture there, everything is all right. We told him about
Jesus and that when we accept him into our hearts, the dark room desappears.
It made him to think; yet he was interested to continue studying occultic
things.

We told him God definitely forbids us mixing ourselves into occult things. But 
he didn't seem to take it seriously. As far as I can say, he wasn't demon-
possessed, yet... Pray for him. And pray for Finland; the same kind of 
trend is seen here more generally. People are more and more starting to 
forget God and rely on themselves.

- Laura

--
"Ve'ahavta et YHVH Eloheicha bechol-levavcha uv'chol-nafshecha
uv'chol-me'odecha" (Deut. 6:5)

Loving truth is loving God.
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Daniel 7 (was Re: Paul)
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:43:01 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

Bruce Tffany writes:
> >Christians believe this vision was fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead
> >and was seated at the right hand of the Father following His ascension.
> 
> Don't lie to the man, Tom.  Saying "Christians believe this vision was
> fulfilled" is just as dishonest as the Rabbinic Jews saying "Jews don't
> believe [fill in the blank]".  If you want to say "SOME Christians", and
> the RJ's want to say "SOME Jews", that's OK.

You are correct, some dispensationalist Christians do not believe this
vision has been fulfilled.  But I don't believe my statement was any more
of a lie than saying, "Christians believe in the virgin birth."

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: etxtdi@diana4.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson TM/JLE 95406)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Date: 15 Apr 92 06:27:32 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <1992Apr14.164322.28223@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.114913.11936@trantor.harris-atd.com> sl@ccd.harris.com (Scott Linn) writes:
>>
>>      I would assume that a theology that interprets "generation"
>>as "race" would continue to see persecution of the Jewish race
>>as a fulfillment of prophecy.
>
>
>Of course that opens them up to a theology of anti-semitism.

How strange then that it was the people from the post-millenialists
camp who always performed the persecusion.

I don't think anyone can think of the expulsion and the diaspora
of the Jewish people from its land in 70 as a blessing.
Anyone must consider that as a result of something bad
rather then something good.
 But then it depends on my heart whether I what to bless this
people (Israel) to regain its original status and (if I could)
help bring redemption to it, or if I take the opportunity to
increase (If I could) their dispair.
 I find this book "Armageddon now" pretty obscure, and it just
all too clear that it is more of an internal post- pre-millenialism
settlement then anything else. It ougth to be pretty clear.

Tord Ivarsson
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:47:04 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <82315@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50) writes:
>>
>>Because of their presupposition about end time events, some premils are
>>forced the interpret the word "genea" as "race" in Matthew 24:34.  That's
>>because they don't "literally" believe that "all these things" (Matthew
>>24:3-31), came upon "this generation" in AD70.
>>
>I hadn't heard *that* interpretation before. (Interpreting "genea" as "race").

Contact Bruce Tiffany.  That's his interpretation of Matthew 24:34.

>I thought the more common premil interpretation of "this generation" in
>Matthew 24:34 was that "this generation" means the generation which sees
>the signs which the Lord enumerated earlier in the same chapter. I presume 
>this interpretation runs into difficulty with Matt 24:2, which was fulfilled
>in 70AD and therefore the "generation clock" would have started ticking no
>later than 70AD, and could hardly be still ticking 2000 years later. 
>
>Tom: Have you heard this interpretation?
>     What is your response to it?

Yes, I have heard it.  And it's more common than the "race" interpretation.
But (IMHO) it makes little interpretative sense, since Jesus was plainly
speaking to His disciples and warning them of the events that that THEY
were to flee from.  He said, "When YOU see these things ..." (Matt. 
24:15).

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Free will (was Re: Armageddon NOW!)
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:47:27 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <81863@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50) writes:
>>
>made alive by His Spirit because man himself is totally incapable of making
>himself spiritually alive. So the Lord lovingly does it for him. If you
>have been made spiritually alive, then how could you reject the free 
>gift of salvation?

Exactly.  Irresistible grace in action.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:49:29 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr14.171321.6205@mcs.anl.gov>, shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer) writes:
|> >|> >Speaking of Passover...as a gentile christian I have always thought
|> >|> >that we have lost a great deal by ignoring our Jewish heritage. In
|> >|> >particular since we believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of the
|> >|> >passover lamb it seems that Passover should be a very important event
|> >|> >for us. I also note that Communion was instituted at the Passover and
|> >|> >Jesus said "as often as you do this do it in remembrance of me". I can
|> >|> >only assume that the this that he referred to was Passover. ...
|> >|> 
|> >|> I would not make such an assumption.
|> >
|> >I don't even understand Michael's paragraph.  He's using
|> >the word "fulfillment" in a technical sense different
|> >from the technical sense which Laura Manninen defined
|> >earlier.  What does it mean for a person to fulfill a lamb?
|> 
|> Sorry that I wasn't clear. I admit my construction was poor. The idea
|> is that the lamb was a representation of a future sacrifice. Christ's
|> sacrifice then was the reality of which the passover lamb was a symbol.
|> I am sure that not everyone would agree with this concept but it is the
|> basis for my interest in the details of the passover cerimony.
|> 
Where in the Torah does it say that the lamb is a representation
of a future sacrifice?

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: re:rob Strom & MJ front speculation
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:25:40 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr7.093030.15752@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:

|> >A large part of the congregation attending
|> >the weddings of my brother-in-law and sister-in-law
|> >were either non-Jewish or so Jewishly unaware
|> >that they were unfamiliar with the normal
|> >customs of Jewish weddings.  My sister-in-law
|> >married a (non-Jewish) minister of evangelical
|> >persuasions.
|> 
|> So your experience includes Jews in Gentile Christian congregations, but does
|> not include Messianic Jewish congregations.  Is that correct?

My brother-in-law was converted by the Jews for Jesus,
which I think you would call today a "Messianic Jewish"
congregation.  My sister-in-law was converted by
her brother-in-law.

They were married in Messianic ceremonies, by this
crazy rabbi with the Yiddish accent talking about
"our saviour Jesus Christ".  Once they were married
they very quickly adopted the Gentile Christian
religion of their spouses.  My sister-in-law
is not bringing her children up Jewish, even
though they are Jewish.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: b_robinson@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Superstition
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: 7 Apr 92 12:37:36 +1000

In article <22426@goofy.Apple.COM> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>I think it's interesting to note that we who don't believe in ancient
>nomad-based superstition including deamons, spirits, original sins
>and so on, we have a far better way of living our lives, compared with
>people that have to worry about deamons, the devil, sinning, the hell,
>and so on.
> 
>If you would like to live a rich and worryless life, give up on 
>superstition! 
> 
>Cheers,
>Kent
>who don't believe in astrology, deamons or elves

It's easy to believe that demons are "ancient nomad-based superstition when all
you hear of them come from ancient writings, or even modern publications
relating to Indonesia, Brazil, etc.

For a thorough, scripturally based account of the work of demons, how they have
been defeated, and how this deliverance can be ministered to sufferers, based
in a western context, read 'Evicting Demonic Squatters and Breaking Bondages"
by Noel and Phyl Gibson, Freedom in Christ Ministries Trust, 1991. (Published
somewhere in Victoria, Australia, I think). Noel is a minister originally from
New Zealand, presently based in Australia, who has had a ministry in a number
of countries, including the USA, as I recall.

Barrie Robinson.
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Children of Abraham question
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:55:46 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Apr3.213147.19120@trantor.harris-atd.com> sl@controls.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Scott Linn) writes:
                           [...]
>     Was Issac a Jew?  He seems to meet your qualification of a
>"subset of the children of Abraham  . . . . through whom Messiah
                           [...]
You are wasting our time.  It is obvious who the Jews are.  If you
think that you are in the group of people discussed by Paul in
Romans 3:1-2 and Romans 9:1-5 (which I stated in my article - please,
your reduction to absurdity argument ignores the clear direction
I gave you in my article) then explain how you reconcile yourself
to Paul's explicit statement that the people of Israel are the people
of his own race?  (Romans 9:3)

>                     [...]                It seems to me that first
>and foremost, being a Jew was a covenant relationship and not a blood
>relationship.

It was not either/or.  It was both.

>              That is why non-Jews like Rahab and Ruth could be in
>the line of Christ without contaminating it. That is why the 
>hundreds of thousands of Egyptian converts who left in the Exodus
>were never distinguished from the Children of Israel.  (And I
>am not speaking of the mixed multitude.) 

Well, you are welcome to your opinion, but the fact is that a foreigner
could not enter the sanctuary.  They were required to confirm the
covenant and live with their family in Israel for four generations
before their (fourth generation) descendents were permitted into the
sanctuary.  So you can claim that it is covenant only, but those that
participated in the temple worship were required to have a heritage
in the covenant going back at least four generations.  This would
virtually guarantee that everyone in the temple was a direct descendent
of Abraham by birth (through intermarriage during the previous four
generations).

>      My point is, the New Covenant people is all the people of
>God that there is now.

Possibly true, with reservations (this depends on what you mean by
"all the people of God").  God clearly has a distinct purpose for
"...those of (Paul's) own race, the people of Israel..." (Romans 9:3).
This purpose will be fulfilled when they are inaugurated into the
New Covenant as a whole nation ("and so all Israel will be saved" -
Romans 11:26).  You are fighting scripture if you deny this.  The
statements of Paul in these three chapters (9,10,11) are pointed and
direct.
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V  
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:29:45 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr7.093220.15756@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:
|> #1839
|> 
|> >Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
|> >From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
|> >Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1992 19:58:13 GMT
|> 
|> >What upset me and my wife was not that her brother and sister
|> >became Christians, but the circumstances under which they
|> >did so.  My brother-in-law was converted at a time when
|> >he was going through a great psychological upheaval, was
|> >neither strong nor knowledgeable, and was very vulnerable.
|> >He then converted his sister who was not yet a teenager
|> >and also very vulnerable to his messages about hell.
|> >I don't consider that either made an informed decision
|> >to change religions.
|> 
|> Since your religion is only an intellectual thing in your head, I can
|> understand why you think this way.  And you won't understand it any better
|> until your heart of stone is taken away, and replaced with a heart of
|> flesh.  This is my earnest prayer for you, Rob.
|> 

Yeah, right.  Frightening little children with stories
of hellfire is the sign of a "heart of flesh".
I'll keep my "heart of stone", thank you.

|> >This aspect of evangelism which targets the
|> >young and vulnerable and plays on their fears
|> >rather than on their understanding is something
|> >which I still cannot accept.
|> 
|> I wasn't there, so I cannot say whether they acted in impropriety.
|> 
|> In any case, you ought to refer to the Tanakh for all the warnings about
|> the rewards of disobedience.  Gehenna is real, and those whose sin has not
|> been blotted out, whose names are not in the Book of Life, will end up there.
|> The fact that you choose not to believe that doesn't make it untrue.
|> 
Please say where you think the Tanakh defines 
an afterlife of hellfire for those who "disobey".

Please say where you think the Tanakh teaches
that failure to believe in the redemptive power
of a Messiah-god is "disobedience".

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Question for Rob Levene
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:37:41 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

On March 23, 1992, at 20:21, I asked Rob Levene to document his claim that
Yeshua advocated rejection of major parts of Torah.  Perhaps he is busy
assembling that documentation.  But just in case it slipped through the
cracks -- I know we have experienced problems with disappearing posts
before -- I am reproducing my post below.

I look forward to your answer, Rob.

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Date: 23 Mar 92 20:20:53 EST

Robert A. Levene writes:

(Link said:)
>> Back in the days of Jeremiah, Jeremaiah contradicted the "scholars" of
>> his day and called them false prophets.  They claimed to be prophets
>> of God, but they prophecied falsely.  Was Jeremiah not a Jew?  Jesus
>> came as The Prophet from God.
> 
> Jeremiah railed against the behavior which he saw, and like a true
> prophet, demanded a return to correct behavior.  Jesus, while he also
> criticized behavior he saw, advocated rejection of major parts of
> Torah law, including the Sabbath and Kashruth.

Please document where Yeshua rejected "major points of Torah law".  Can you
give any specific examples of where He did this?  (I expect you to quote
those parts of Torah He advocated rejecting, if you expect anyone to
believe you, as well as where and how He advocated rejecting it.)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power
____/__\____		of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the
\  / || \  /		Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the
 \/--++--\/		righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith;
 /\  ||  /\		as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live
/  \ || /  \		by faith."
----\--/----						-- Romans 1:16-17
     \/			-- Bruce Tiffany
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Yehudim for Yeshu
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 16:37:03 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Apr17.141333.277@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
                             [...]
>I offered a scenario some time ago about a Chinese town that converted to
>Judaism.  I posed several questions related to that scenario.  It's
>interesting that neither you nor anyone else who subscribes to your
>definition of "Jewishness" responded to my questions.

It is not necessary to totally define Jewishness in terms of any and every
scenario that you are capable of dreaming up.  God knows the answer to your
question, just as he knew the answer to the Sadducees (who were also fond of
allegorical interpretations) who built up the fantasy scenario of seven
husbands for the same woman in order to refute the resurrection.

-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The purpose and meaning of circumcision
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:27:21 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1801

>Subject: Re: The purpose and meaning of circumcision
>From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
>Date: 30 Mar 92 16:13:38 GMT

>Tell me, who was killed in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70?  Was the
>death sentence upon Jerusalem limited to the Pharisaic leadership?  Or did
>all the Jews who remained suffer?  What happened to the Messianic Jews of
>that day?  Did they listen to the warning of Jesus in Matthew 24?  Was that
>event outside the control of a sovereign God?

You didn't answer the question.  WHERE did Jesus say the nation of Israel
would be "punished by God" for rejecting the Messiah?

>The blood of the prophets, and the blood of the Messiah, was paid for by
>that generation.

This is really a strange mutation of "Christianity".  You're saying they
*paid* for the blood of Messiah?  If they could pay for it, and for the
blood of the prophets, why did He die?  Certainly, if they could *pay*
for His blood, they could pay for their own sin!

So when Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, because they didn't know
what they were doing, you want us to believe the Father said, "No way!
I'm gonna get 'em for this!"  You mean He refused?  Whose idea was it
for Messiah to die for us, anyway?  Better go back to Isaiah 53!

I don't know where your weird theology would leave *me*, if I were to
accept it.  You see, Tom, it was *I* who drove the crucifixion spikes
into Messiah's body; it was *I* who lashed Him with the whip.  He was
bruised for *my* iniquities, and by His stripes *I* am healed!

>>That's very nice, but when the nations of the world are gathered against
>>Israel to battle, whose side will you be on?  ...
> 
>You mean against the Church, the true children of Abraham, the recipients
>of the new covenant? :-)

Against the Church as well.  But you have evaded answering; yet, I think
we all know the answer.  After all, these "imposters", as you once called
them, aren't even the real Israel.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany
Newsgroups: alt.messianic