HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Hey Mutlu, eat my kill file.
Date: 10 Jan 1993 06:30:34 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Due to the death of Serdar Argic, I return him to my kill file.

   
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Date: 10 Jan 93 19:43:40 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <1993Jan10.011854.21767@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

>	Funny, coming from a person who has falsified my name in the past.
>I will not enter your debate, but please tell when I posted that.
>From an article where you did not fake my name.

I have never falsified your name; as you well know.  In fact
there is still that little issue that we have to settle.

But no matter; that is a personal issue and not relevant
to this forum.  Do you then claim that you are not from
"Israel?"

Basalat Ali Raja.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Catholic bigotry
Date: 5 Jan 1993 13:34:52 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


I thought I would add jusa few more posts.  Maybe you might get
the messaf I keep doing this!
From: cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman)
Subject: Re: israel vs. the world
Organization: Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Date:  5 Jan 93 16:10:40 GMT

In <1993Jan5.1777.22044@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

><o>#clip
><doctype>book
><author>Leibowitz, Yeshayahu
><title>Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish State
><editor>Goldman, Eliezer
><city>Cambridge, MA
><publisher>Harvard University Press
><year>1992

>     Israel, with its expansionist policies, is rapidly
>     alienating the entire world and becoming an embarrassment to
>     the Jewish people. (Leibowitz Judaism, Human Values, and the
>     Jewish State 1992)

And I am sure that this book presents the same clear rational
discourse on the "Jewish Problem" as Protocols of the Elders
of Zion, right?


--
cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:50:20 GMT

> eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY) writes:

>	I would not for example regard PLO actions against Israeli
>soldiers  as terrorism for the
>simple reason that the Palestinians have no peaceful options to opose
>Isreal. The same is not true for the IRA. 


	There *are* peaceful options.
	The peace between Israel and Egypt suggests the
	possibility that a peace could be concluded, e.g.,
	along the lines of the Proposal below, which has been
	supported in spirit by 40 tpm readers
	(4 more since it was reposted last month).
**********************************************************************
We support the Middle East peace negotiators in their all-important role, 
and the following proposal is not intended to advise or second-guess them.
Rather, it is intended to suggest one of many possible courses for
compromise and peace.

                   A PROPOSAL FOR PEACE  (October, 1991)
Israelis, Palestinians and neighboring Arab states will begin
by formally acknowledging each other's legitimate right to coexist
peacefully in respective states.  This entails official revocation
of the contrary passages in the PLO Charter.  Simultaneously, Israel
will revoke laws proclaiming the PLO as a terrorist organization,
and will negotiate with the PLO along with other Arab representatives,
with the goal of complying with UNSC Resolution 242.  An
independent Palestinian state is to be established on all or most
of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.  There are to be firm international
guarantees of security through demilitarization and peacekeeping
measures.  At the start of negotiations, the Arab boycott against
Israel will be lifted and Israeli settlement activity in the
occupied territories will cease.  At the conclusion, there should
be cultural exchange and economic development enhanced
by flourishing trade in the spirit of newfound friendship.

The undersigned support the spirit of the proposal for peace.

Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh              Dr. Barry M. Kingsbury
Mary Appelman                       Hanan Lutfiyya
Rabbi Charles Arian                 Lisa Majaj
Hussein G. Badr                     Brendan McKay
Gordon Banks                        Hans D. Meurer
Todd Bernhard                       Ziad Najem
Steven Berson                       David Marc Nieporent
Bob Blackshaw
Seth Bradley                        Eric Perlman
Habeeb Dihu                         Ray Ravelo
Ron Evans                           Brian Ross
Ron Feigen
Robert Firth                        Joel Sax
Shai Guday                          D.C. Sessions
                                    David Shalhevet
Barrak Mohammed Hadi                Amos Shapir
Basil Y. Hamdan                     Adam Shostack
Nevo Y Hed                          Ben Singer
Kurt Heycke                         David F. Skoll
Bharathi Jagadeesh                  Pekka Taipale
Sari Khoury                         David Weinstein
                                    Ilan Uri Woll

-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24699 soc.culture.greek:12051 soc.history:10542
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 9 Jan 93 00:15:11 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1ifungINNouq@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.190629.19897@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>A word's meaning is defined by how it is coined and used, not how its
>>roots define it.  "Inflammable" does not mean "not flammable", nor
>>does "sycophant" imply a fruit seller (sukon - fig, phantes - to
>>show).  "Anti-Semite" was coined and has always been understood to
>>mean "Anti-Jew".

>Not by the majority of the Semites.  Interesting this fact, no?

No more interesting than the fact that the average American can't
figure out how to use `shall' and `will' correctly.  The fact that a
billion people claim that the world is flat does not make it so.  The
fact that a billion people don't know enough English to use the word
`anti-Semite' correctly does not mean their usage of it is correct,
meaningful, or interesting.

Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Palestinian Deportees
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:12:04 GMT

hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>> >According to the BBC (31-12-92, 0400 UTC) the French foreign minister
>> >has proposed that the UN peacekeeping forces in Lebanon take charge of
>> >the welfare of the 415 Palestinians forced out of the country by Israel.
>> >Yasser Arafat has expressed interest in this proposal.
>> 
>> The Arabs have rejected the proposal, preferring to make propaganda
>> hay at the expense of their brethren.

>Has it been rejected?

Yes.  See above.

> By whom?

By the Lebanese, obviously, since that's whose territory the
terrorists are on.

> I have not heard any more about this
>matter since 31-12-92. In any case, local villagers have been bringing
>in food and other supplies, despite your apparent allegations that there
>is no sympathy.

That's how they get their cake and eat it too.  They smuggle in
supplies, so the terrorists have no real needs unmet, but still get to
complain about Israel depriving them.

-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Subject: Re: Israeli Nazism?  (Arabs killing Arabs)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:02:01 GMT
Originator: michaelp@svartor.ifi.uio.no


In article <29930@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
> In article <1993Jan6.131315.8532@ifi.uio.no> michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger) writes:
> ~
> ~In article <29920@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
> ~> In article <1993Jan6.014248.10027@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:
> ~> ~In article <C0EAKH.sI@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
> ~> 
> ~> ~      Syria's Hafez Assad ordered the massacre of approximately 10,000
> ~> ~to 20,000 fellow Arabs in the city of Hama in around 1980.  I believe
> ~> ~this town was an active Moslem Brotherhood area.  They would be quite
> ~> ~similar in philosophy to the Hamas members that Israel recently
> ~> ~expelled (note expelled, not butchered like in Syria).
> ~> 
> ~> I used to be under the impression that Israel aspires to be a civilised
> ~> democracy in the "western" sense. Now it is clear that as long as the 
> ~> Israeli regime is less brutal than that in say, Syria, or Iraq, or other
> ~> cradles of gentleness, that's ok. Why not try setting your sights just a
> ~> tiny bit higher?
> ~> 
> ~> 
> ~Mr. Henderson:
> ~
> ~Do you require a different standard of humanity from israel than that
> ~you do from its neighbours?
> ~
> ~If the answer is "YES": could you elaborate a little bit on it?
> 
> My posting refers to the contrast between Israel's behaviour and its
> assumed aspirations, but to answer your question:
> 
> I require the same standard of humanity from every country. Too bad no-body
> consults me before deciding what to do ;-(
> 

I was asking this question, because it is quite strange that the human right 
situation in other countries in the middle east is never adressed in this 
group. Despite the fact that it is talk politics MIDEAST, and not talk politics
ISRAEL.

The reason to this (I think) is that somehow, deep inside "western"
people DO require a different standard from israel. Not that I oppose
this on a mental basis. I am an israeli citizen, and feel quite proud
that my country is expected to hold a higher standard of humanism.

however, the human right situation in the arab countries is NOT irrelevant to
the political situation in the middle east. A mideast debate is lacking
if this is not properly adressed.

> ~Thanks
> 
> You're welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          
> 
> This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
> Bloody good value if you ask me.

Michael
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: WHY?
Date: 7 Jan 93 09:19:41 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1993Jan4.142733.11546@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>
>>FEEDING A HUNGRY CAT IS JIHAD!

>   So, when a crowd of Arabs with axes cry "JIHAD! JIHAD!!" they are only
>call to feed hungry cats.

Note, you misquoted here.  Mr. Elghani (mabrook, ya arees :-)) was
the one who said that.

You didn't respond to my question about Technion ... ?
 
Anisa
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Terrorism
Date: 13 Jan 93 00:48:38 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1993Jan12.075004.25608@nuscc.nus.sg> eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY) writes:
>Ron Evans (revans@euclid.ucsd.edu) wrote:

>:  <1483500319@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>: >TERRORISM constitutes the infliction of physical harm to
>: >civilians for political purposes.

>: 	If someone plants a bomb which later explodes in a 
>:         military transport plane flying to Somalia, 
>: 	I would consider that TERRORISM, even if none of the
>: 	dead were civilians.
>
>	Now that would depend on the circumstances.  For example action
>of the kind mentioned by Ron carried out in a country at war would
>certainly not be regarded as terrorism.  I would attempt at a better
>definition:

Would it be terrorism if its a plane full of civilians?

>	TERRORISM is the use of random violence against non-combatants
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^         ==============

Random violence, or randomly targeted violence?
How do you define non-combatants in peace time?

>or soldiers in peace time.  The action leading to death or injury is

If the action fails to injure anyone, is it not terrorism?

>carried out inspite of peaceful options by groups of extremists seeking
>to subvert the political establishment.

If there are no peaceful options, is it no longer terrorism?

Can no attack on soldiers be considered a terrorist action?

Adam

PS: Any responses to my attempt at a definition?


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Irish Anti-semitism
Date: 5 Jan 1993 13:35:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


Yo!  Wayne.  Is ANY of this starting to sink in???

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25257 soc.culture.soviet:12090
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Letter of rejection
Date: 6 Jan 93 11:06:27 GMT

<1993Jan6.092231.7348@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes

>The issue is not A
>palestinian homeland or state. It is whether they can be allowed to exist as
>equal beings with full human and civil rights in the land of their birth.

	Dear Sir:
	We've decided to advise against giving equal rights to all
	Palestinians at this time.  We reluctantly reached this
	decision after our research showed that a sizeable 
	group of Palestinians wishes to kill Jews until
	Israel is destroyed.  (Kindly refer to the Hamas
	Covenant of 1988.)   As soon as Palestinian documents
	cease denying Israel's right to exist, we will be happy
	to take the matter once more under advisement.  We will
	keep your letter on file, and regret that we cannot give
	you better news.
					Cordially,
	                                Ron Evans
					Chairman, ICMR
			(International Centre for Mideast Research)
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:34:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Dec27.213719.11871@ncsu.edu:789375939:cdp:1483500314:000:2602
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Jan  5 00:34:00 1993


I happen to live in Iceland, a country of 250.000 people living in an area
of 104.000 sq.km.The population of Palestine at the time Mr. Balfour
"gave" Palestine to the Zionists was over 700.000 people for an area the
quarter of Iceland., Although Iceland is admiteedly sparesely populated,
no person in Iceland would acccept that another people would declare
its own state in Iceland with the pretext that Icelaners have enough space.

But as the subject is the question of the relation Zionism-racism, I
will only provide one criterion which for me encampsulates more than
anything else the affirmation that Zionism is indeed a racist ideology.

As many know, Israel has refused to allow the hundreds of thousands
of Palestinian refugees living around Israel's borders and in the
occupied territories, to return to their former villages and towns
which are located in Israel. In fact it is an understatement to
say 'refused' because many refugees, who attempted in early days, that is
in the fiftees, to return by night across the border, were just shot
dead by Israeli soldiers. They were called "mistanenim" in Hebrew and
were not accused of being armed. "Mistanenim" means Infiltrators.

Now, the reason for Israel's adamant refusal to allow these refugees
to return home, is that they are not born to a Jewish mother, nor
contemplate to convert to Judaism.In fact, this discrimination is
even worse than that practiced by the Catholic Inquisition in Spain
against Jews. At that time, Jews were given the choice to convert or be
expelled from Spain. It was however rather easy to become Catholic
and many choose this way to be able to remain in their homes. Israel
did not even propose to the Palestinian this way out of exile, since
Jews are not keen  dilute their blood with Gentile blood. The Jewish
religion places great obstruction for converts, thus ensuring that
very few people become Jews.

It is true that Jewish/Zionist racism is not as pathological as the
extreme form of Nazism, but basically an ideological similiarity
exists. I am not the first person to identify the  similarity. In
fact Jewish leaders in Germany in the first Hitler years, 
acknowledged this similarity and compared - in a positive
manner - Zionism and National-Socialism. No wonder. Anybody interested
in the sources, is welcome to contact me.

And please dear folks, no name-calling. I will not respond to any
but serious correspondents. I am willing to be corrected in my
assessment and challenged on facts. But you will have to make
serious efforts in substantiation.

Elias Davidsson
Palestinian born in 1941
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Civilized behaviour
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 6 Jan 93 15:20:03 CST

In article <29929@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:


> At last it becomes clear where Mr. Evans gets his remarkable view of the
> world - from watching Hollywood thrillers! Well, sorry to disappoint you,
> Ron, but the stuff you saw on the screen *isn't real*!! It's a blow, I
> know, but hopefully you'll come to terms with it one day.


	Now, what have you seen, Henderson The Hypocrite? When
	and where was the last time you've been stoned by a 
	crowd of hundreds of people? Last week on page 
	15 of The Guardian perhaps?



Noam

> 
> -- 
> ===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Civilized behaviour
Date: 6 Jan 93 12:34:52 GMT

<29920@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:

>I used to be under the impression that Israel aspires to be a civilised
>democracy in the "western" sense. 

	Indeed, Israel would've done well to emulate the "western"
	brand of civilized behaviour.  A clinic was put on
	during the Vietnam War.

>Now it is clear that as long as the 
>Israeli regime is less brutal than that in say, Syria, or Iraq, or other
>cradles of gentleness, that's ok. Why not try setting your sights just a
>tiny bit higher?

	What a great line this would have been for the San Francisco
        DA to deliver to Clint Eastwood's character
	Detective Harry Callahan ("Dirty Harry").
	A killer announced that he had buried a young girl
	alive and that her oxygen was running out.  When Harry finally
	caught up with him, the psycho refused to reveal the girl's
	location and kept screaming about the violation of his
        rights until Harry tortured him.  Why couldn't Harry have
	set his sights a tiny bit higher?
	Incidentally, it was too late to save the girl, and the
	killer was released because evidence obtained under torture
	was inadmissible.  He later commandeered a school bus 
	and...well, I won't ruin the ending.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Cat Steven's visit to Israel (& concert!)
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:40:12 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <4842@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.033754.4597@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:

>>NEWSDAY (ND) - Wednesday July 27, 1988
>>Edition: NASSAU AND SUFFOLK  Section: NEWS  Page: 09

>>    One  official,  who  spoke on condition of anonymity, said the passport
>>agents were acting on instructions from the Interior Ministry.
>>    Airport   officials  said  they  turned  away  Islam  for  his  alleged
>>preachings against the Jewish nation.
>
>So, it appears that they knew about Yousef Islam's plans to visit Israel
>and harrassed him for three/four hours even with the knowledge that they
>had no intentions of permitting his entry.

Where on earth did the "harrassed for 3-4 hours come from?"  My
reading of the article was that he was denied entry, and then made to
wait for the plane to be refueled, and then flew back to London. 

>>Speaking of barring individuals from countries, most if not all of the 
>>Arab countries bar all Jews from visiting their countries.  Some will 
>>make exceptions for important politicians (like Kissinger), or for 
>>Jewish soldiers defending Arab countries (like in operation Desert 
>>Storm).

>You cannot enter any Arab country with an Israeli entry stamp on your
>passport.  Until you can prove, with some legitimate sources, your
>above statement, we can understand this to be a pure propoganda piece
>that contains no credibility.

Make that any Arab country with the exception of Egypt.  As for
sources, I have talked to several Jewish veterans who served in Desert
Shield/Storm in Saudi Arabia.  At least one had visited Israel.

>Or do you enjoy your position of being an Israeli apologist?

Nope, the hours are awful, the pay stinks, and you have to deal with
some major wackos. ;)

Adam



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: israel as asset
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: talk
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:06:34 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.1777.22329@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Michael Silverman

> MS> Perhaps if Israel had the world's largest petroleum
> MS> reserves, it too could pay its own way!

>Most nations around the world lack petroleum reserves, but they
>don't demand that the U.S. provide them aid at the rate of nearly
>$1,000 per citizen per annum. They find creative ways to build
>their economy on other bases.

Well, no, actually, most of them just let their citizens starve.

But anyway, most of these countries don't have hundreds of millions of
people who want to wipe them off the map.

[...]
-- 
David M. Nieporent   | "We don't need anymore [sic] wretched refuse.  It's 
niepornt@phoenix.    |  time to send the Statue of Liberty somewhere else"
   princeton.edu     |      -- Jack "Not a bigot" Schmidling, 1/7/93
Baltimore Orioles 93 |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24898 soc.rights.human:4733