From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Peter/Rock
Date: 17 Dec 92 22:01:03 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <BzDDtG.23F@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:

I retained all of Steve's post and just added my comments at the end.
It maybe a little long, but thought it was worth the comparison.

>In article <1cY.02kv2ft701@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (TONY ROSE) writes:
>>              "And I shall say unto thee, Thou are Peter and
>>               upon this rock I will build my church; and
>>               the gates of hell shall not prevail against
>>               it."  (Matthew 16:18)
>>
>>"Peter" here comes from the Greek word "Petros" but "rock" comes from the
>>Greek word "petra", 1 Corinthians 10:4 says that the "petra" was Christ.
>
>   Actually, the Greek words "Petros" and "petra" are forms of the
>same word.  In English we lose this literary effect because the name
>"Peter" and the word "rock" are not related.  This is because, as is
>often the case in English, we have synonymous words derived from more
>than one language.  For example, the name "Peter" comes from the Greek
>word for rock, whereas the word "rock" comes from Middle English, from
>Old North French, from Vulgar Latin.
>
>   The word used by Jesus was actually the Aramaic "kepa" in both
>places ("thou art Kepa and on this kepa I will build my church.")
>Also, in modern French the word is "pierre" in both places, as
>"Pierre" is a man's name, and "pierre" means "rock."
>
>   We know that the Gospel according to Matthew was written originally
>in Aramaic, but translated into Greek.  What the people in the Gospels
>said would most likely also have been in Aramaic, the common language
>of that time and place.  The Aramaic for rock is kepa, or kepha
>(depending on how you transliterate the alphabet).  Aramaic, like
>English, does not have inflection of nouns.  That is, a noun is always
>spelled the same, whether it is used as a subject, an object, or
>what-have-you.  Greek, however, like German and Latin, _is_ inflected,
>as well as having gender of nouns.  This means that a noun is spelled
>differently in Greek, depending on where the noun is used in the
>sentence.  So in translating from Aramaic to Greek one would likely be
>forced by the grammar to make such a change in spelling of a word that
>had been the same in both places in Aramaic.
>
>   Also, like English and most other languages, a proper name in Greek
>is either masculine or feminine, depending on whether it is given to a
>male or a female.  For example, the English Stephen/Stephanie,
>Robert/Roberta, etc. and the Greek Petros/Petra.
>
>  Now if Simon Peter had been a woman, we wouldn't have this
>misunderstanding.  Jesus would have said, "Simone, daughter of Jonah,
>you are _Petra_, and on this _petra_ I will build my Church."
>However, Simon Peter was a man, so Jesus had to say, "Simon, son of
>Jonah, you are _Petros_, and on this _petra_ I will build my Church."
>In neither case would the "Rock" have a meaning different than the
>"rock."

Could it not be understood that Jesus was saying that "Yes, Peter you
are ROCK, but upon this ROCK (HIMSELF, THE CHRIST) I will establish my
church?  It is a compare and contrast to Peter being strong, but Jesus
being even better/stronger.

There are two Greek words used in this verse (i) petros and (ii) petra.  

    (i) petros (pi, epsilon, tau, rho, ?) means piece of a rock, as in Homer
of Ajax throwing a stone at Hector ("Iliad," vii, 270.)

    (ii) petra (pi, epsilon, tau, rho, alpha) means ledge of rocks or 
rocky peak.  In Homer ("Odyssey," ix., 243) the rock which Polyphemus
places at the door of his cavern, which took many horses to move.

Care to take a jab at which goes with Peter's name and which is the second one.

Matt 16:18, Thou art Peter [petros, a stone] and upon on this rock [petra,
ledge of rocks, rocky peak] I will build my church."

Liddell and Scott's Greek lexicon refers to petros as sling-stone or boundary
stones, but it refers to petra in the realm of Mt. Olympus.

Yes, there are different opinions on this, but I believe that this rock [petra]
is the fact that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) and the church is
built upon this fact, which is what is embodied in Jesus the Christ, Himself,
for in him all of the Godhead dwelt in bodily form.

    Peter does mean rock and this verse did somewhat confuse me, 
until I saw how Peter and Paul referred to the foundation of the church.  
True, Peter was there when Jesus said "Upon this rock I will build my 
church.", but who is to say "this rock" refers to Peter and not to 
Christ, himself, or to Peter's confession of Jesus being the Christ.

The following are some verses referring to this - I'll make some comments,
but will not elaborate.

Jesus speaking:
       LUK 20:17  And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that 
       is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is 
       become the head of the corner?
                                                                         
       LUK 20:18  Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; 
       but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Peter speaking to the Rulers and Elders about Jesus:
       ACT 4:11  This is the stone which was set at nought of you 
       builders, which is become the head of the corner.
                                                                         
Paul speaking:
       ROM 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a 
       stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on 
       him shall not be ashamed.
                                                                         
   ::  1CO 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they 
   ::  drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock 
   ::  was Christ.
                                                                         
       EPH 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and 
       prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner {stone};
                                                                         
Peter speaking:
       1PE 2:4  To whom coming, {as unto} a living stone, disallowed 
       indeed of men, but chosen of God, {and} precious,
                                                                         
       1PE 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, 
       I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that 
       believeth on him shall not be confounded.
                                                                         
       1PE 2:7  Unto you therefore which believe {he is} precious: but 
       unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders 
       disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

       1PE 2:8  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, {even 
       to them} which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto 
       also they were appointed.
                                                                         
John speaking of God the Father on the throne as a stone:
       REV 4:3  And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a 
       sardine stone: and {there was} a rainbow round about the throne, 
       in sight like unto an emerald.

Jesus referred to himself as the stone and so did the others.  Do you 
know any reference where Peter and not Jesus is designated the rock or
foundation of the church or belief system? The point being is that Peter, 
who was present, understood Jesus to be the foundation/rock/corner stone.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
                                                                         
>Steve Creps, Indiana University


-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu      |  Love and Worship God, the Creator of the Earth. 
                          --|--   
Pro-Life!              -|-  |  -|-    Come bow down in worship, let us kneel
Pro-Responsibility!     |   |   |     before the Lord Our Maker.  Psalm 95:6 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc