HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rbrown@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Rich Brown -- Neither)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:24:11 GMT
Organization: Nat'l Ctr for Supercomp App (NCSA) @ University of Illinois
Originator: rbrown@mars.ncsa.uiuc.edu


The essence of go is the synthesis of fragmentary constituents, protracted
throughout space and time, into an integrated organic totality.  (Organic in
the sense that it grows and evolves.)  This basic fact has remarkable impli-
cations with respect to the question:  "Is go analagous to anything in the
real world?"

Since getting better at go means getting better at synthesizing the protracted
fragments into a whole, it feeds back into other disciplines.  If you are a
writer, having learned to play go can help you to synthesize the fragments of
language (protracted through space and time) into a whole, making you a better
writer.  Similarly, having played go can improve one's musicianship:  The frag-
mentary notes, durations, and rythms, which are protracted throughout time and
space, may be more skillfully synthesized into a composition, as the essential
go skill (as described above) is developed.

Of course, it works the other way around too.  Learning to play a musical
instrument, or learning to write, can actually make you a better go player!
The basic idea is this:  How does one draw together the fragments under
consideration so that they form an elegant, comprehensive totality?  That is
the fundamental skill common to many disciplines, and in go we find the
abstraction and distillation of that skill, boiled down to black and white.

Rich
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++
Rich Brown (Neither)
rbrown@ncsa.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.corewar,comp.theory.cell-automata
From: karttu@mits.mdata.fi (Antti Karttunen)
Subject: Some far-out ideas (was Re: Real world analogies to Go)
Organization: MITS, Helsinki, Finland
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 00:22:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.223403.19986@crd.ge.com> kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com
(David Kassover) writes in rec.games.go:
>What? no one has remembered the similarity of go to Conway's
>life?
>
>Wasn't there a serious mathematical discussion here in this
>newsgroup of using lifelike finite state automata and fractal
>analysis to aid in the playing of go?

I'm all eyes! So, has anybody saved these articles, or is the rec.games.go
archived anywhere?

BTW, I recently downloaded Core Wars like game from Japanese ftp-site
called 'Jintori', which seems to be somewhat influenced by Go. It has
two bugs competing in two-dimensional space (instead of the traditional
one-dimensional Core Wars space), and the winner bug is the one which have
conquered more area in the end (by surrounding it). I wonder if this could
be made still more Go-like so that bugs' existence could be determined by
their liberties, count of eyes, and so on. In the end we maybe could
have the Go-playing program where the stones 'themselves' decide how to
play. Or even 'artificial life' system (See for example the July 1992
Scientific American article about the Genetic Algorithms) where the better
and better Go-playing algorithms would evolve. (Huh, carried away again... ;-)

(I'm crossposting this drivel now also to two other groups, which can be
seen in the header, to generate something, at least flames. What's the
common denominator? Rectangular grid, I guess.)
 
-- 
Antti Karttunen       --  $B%"%s%C%F%#!!%+%k%C%H%%%M%s(J  (et{ty|t|n)
karttu@mits.mdata.fi  --  Apatheist, although not particularly proud of it.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: cs_jh@cox.nsac.ns.ca (JEFF HOYLE)
Subject: go boards
Summary: go board construction question
Keywords: go boards
Organization: Nova Scotia AC
Distribution: all
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:44:13 GMT

Sometime ago there was a discussion about making go boards.  I seem to 
remember someone saying that they would post allthe info.  I missed my mail 
feed for about 2 weeks.

Did anyone ever post this stuff?  Does anyone have it?  If so please email 
me with either a ftp site or the actual info.

Thanks for the help

I am still learning to play go and have got to about 20kyu!!  

Jeff
  ***********************************************************
  * Dr Jeff Hoyle (Organic Chemist)                         *
  * Chemistry and Soil Science Department                   *
  * Nova Scotia Agricultural College    FAX: (902)-895-4547 *                     *
  * P.O. Box 550, TRURO,              Voice: (902)-893-6630 *
  * Nova Scotia. CANADA  B2N  5E3                           *  
  *                  -----------------                      * 
  * Internet: cs_jh@cox.nsac.ns.ca  OR  jh_cs@ac.nsac.ns.ca *
  ***********************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: dxb105@phys.anu.edu.au (David Bofinger)
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go (& some comparison with Chess)
Followup-To: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
Organization: Theoretical Physics, Australian National University
Distribution: world 
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 03:10:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.183807.24429@cco.caltech.edu>, yucao@cco.caltech.edu
(Yu Cao, aka Bobbo) wrote:
> A side mark which may be obvious to all. I think the reason go is so 
> strategically deep is because the interactions between pieces are local,

Not entirely true. The influence of a ladder breaker, for instance, does
propagate instantaneously across the board the same way the influence of a
bishop does. It's less common than in chess, though, and I agree that it's
a significant difference.

> and a small battle can have a small effect on the whole board. While in
> chess, with the existence of queens, castles and bishops, all the postions
> on the board are tightly coupled (the board is smaller too). So just a couple
> of 'tactical' moves can result in crucial difference.

In go, a bamboo joint is a solid connection, as long as I respond to any
attempt to break it. The point is that in go I can leave that bamboo joint
sitting there for fifty moves if I like, knowing that until my opponent
pushes in it's safe. In chess, there are very few structures one can leave
like that regardless of your opponent's moves elsewhere, whereas in go
there
are lots. It's that which gives go it's more "strategic" (rather than
tactical) feel, I think.

Somebody else said that chess doesn't have a concept of "bad shape". I'd
suggest that most chess "shape" concepts are connected to pawn structure
(the other pieces move too fast). Some examples are: doubled pawns are
bad,
isolated pawns are bad, passed pawns are good, knights on the edge are bad,
bishops of different colours lead to draws, rooks on the seventh rank are
strong. Steinitz wrote up most of them.

Finally, someone else was talking about 3-D go. The classic problem with it
is that stones have too many liberties, since the coordination number (the
number of adjacent points) of each point is six instead of four. Playing on
a grid that has a coordination number of four (e.g. the lattice
characteristic
of diamond) might work better, but it's a lot harder to visualise. And
ladders
still don't work, which seems a shame. The other problem with 3-D is that
the
interior-to-boundary ratio for territories is smaller. So to let people
make
points anywhere but a corner you need a _big_ board. I'm sure this has been
done somewhere, does anyone have a reference?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Bofinger  AARNet: dxb105@phys.anu.edu.au
                Snail:  Dept. of Theoretical Physics, RSPhysSE, ANU, ACT,
2601
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: rfb@CS.CMU.EDU (Rick Busdiecker)
Subject: Re: Star points on smaller boards?
Originator: rfb@H.GP.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 20:52:26 GMT

In article <NJ.92Aug19100245@magnolia.Berkeley.EDU> nj@magnolia.Berkeley.EDU (The Automatic F Key) writes:

   I'm writing a go board display and IGS client for the Amiga.
   These are rather silly questions, but just for completeness:
   Do people ever play handicap games on boards smaller than 19x19?
   Is there a standard for where to put the star points on such boards?

I bought a slotted board from Sabaki a few years ago that came with a
13x13 board on the back.  It has the star points on the 4th line.

			Rick
-- 
Rick Busdiecker <rfb+@cs.cmu.edu>
``Unix is simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity.''
				- Dennis Ritchie
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
From: jfbuss@math.uwaterloo.ca (Jonathan Buss)
Subject: Re: SHOGI! (odds-giving and "distance" in ability)
Keywords: go analogy life power chess shogi
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:27:51 GMT

In article <Bt914x.384@acsu.buffalo.edu> regan@acsu.buffalo.edu (Kenneth Regan) writes:
>Say two players differ by a "fundamental rating unit" (FRU) if one
>expects to score 75% against the latter.  The Elo system with coefficients
>(16, 4%) used by the USCF has an FRU of 200 points.
>Hence a novice 1200 player is about 8 FRU's away from Kasparov.
>The FRU concept applies to any game, and my hunch is that in Shogi and Go,
>the FRU distance from novice to world champ is much greater than in chess.

The AGA rating system for go is based on a 67% winning percentage for
a difference of 100 points.  Purely at a guess, I'll take 150 points
for a 75% percentage.  For another guess, I'll assume that top player
in the world would come in around 1100.  (No world-class players are
rated by the AGA.  So far as I know, none are rated by any similar
system.)  Someone who just learned the rules would be around -3500,
for a distance of about 30 FRU.  The corresponding figure for chess is
about 15 FRU.

Why the difference?  One important factor is that go games last
longer.  Winniing a go game is roughly like winning two chess games in
a row.

Jonathan Buss
From: shanwang@sara.cc.utu.fi
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: *_-_* Look for GO fun in Finland *_-_*
Summary: kk
Keywords: miss{
Date: 16 Aug 92 09:08:02 GMT
Organization: University of Turku, Finland


	Helleo, folks

	I am an ametaur 2 dan from mainland China.
	
	Can anybody recommand me some Go fan in Finland ? Nor matter they are
	Finnish or alien, such as Chinese ...

	Thanks in advance ...

	Cheers .

	--Shan
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: mrkeys@orac.holonet.net (Kevin Moore)
Subject: other oriental games
 
 
Shogi: I know of 2 programs, one for IBM that Ishi Press has,
 
Organization: HoloNet (BBS: 510-704-1058)
Mah-Jong: I saw 3 different programs for the Mac in Japan that played
 
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 11:27:06 GMT

kevin moore       mrkeys@holonet.net


Xref: sparky rec.games.go:1655 news.answers:2578
From: blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.)
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go (& some comparison
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 04:07:35 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Keywords: go analogy life power chess

In article <1992Aug17.130129.371@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes:
>Just a few more words on the comparison of go and chess.
(two features where Go is different from chess- board size and shape)

One other feature that Go has over chess is in handicapping.
I can play games against players far above and far below my own level by
giving or recieving handicap stones. Giving or recieving stones also has
the advantage that it doesn't change the game a whole lot- the basic strategies
are still the same. This can't be said of chess- where if I gave my opponent
a pawn and knight, it would greatly change the way strategy would be played.
That and its more difficult to establish an even balance, even if ratings
are known.

r.
From: cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: E-Mail Go question
Date: 20 Aug 92 08:02:52 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <148@sbe.csuhayward.edu> asymptot@sbe (Mike Mathews) writes:
>A question for people who play E-Mail Go games.  Do you use an ASCII
>board for move exchange?  or do you just send the move?  

I use, whenever possible, the mgt/mailgo combo available from
milton.u.washington.edu, directory public/go (mgt22.sh.Z). Otherwise, I
use an ASCII board identical to mgt's display.
-- 
-Tero Sand
  EMail: cust_ts@cc.helsinki.fi     Snail mail: Auroran Sairaala os. 6-1
  (if that doesn't work, try                    Nordenskioldinkatu 20
   cust_ts@kruuna.helsinki.fi)                  00250 Helsinki 25, Finland
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: rfb@CS.CMU.EDU (Rick Busdiecker)
Subject: Re: E-Mail Go question
Originator: rfb@H.GP.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 21:23:31 GMT

In article <148@sbe.csuhayward.edu> asymptot@sbe (Mike Mathews) writes:

   If you do use an ASCII board, could someone please send me a copy of
   one at mmathews@csuhayward.edu ?

You can get the code for mailgo, and mgt which it uses, from the Go
archive on milton.u.washington.edu.
-- 
Rick Busdiecker <rfb+@cs.cmu.edu>
``Unix is simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity.''
				- Dennis Ritchie
From: bernd@cc.uow.edu.au (Bernd Wechner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Where are there GO servers?
Date: 19 Aug 92 07:33:06 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

>>Could someone please tell me the IP address and the host names to the GO
>>servers?I am a beginner and don't know where they are at.
>>

>telnet 128.32.201.46 6969

Isn't there a name for it as well? Numbers are so hard to work with
after all, and it's the first site I've ever seen reference too 
apparently without a name ...

Bernd.
From: stuart@wstuart (Stuart Hood)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:29:46 GMT
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems Ltd.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) writes:
: 
: What? no one has remembered the similarity of go to Conway's
: life?

I heard that Conway first played life on a go board.

Stuart.
-
--
S I E M E N S  Stuart Hood === Siemens Nixdorf House, Bracknell, Berks, UK
-------------  Phone: + 44-344-850892          Email: stuart@siesoft.co.uk
N I X D O R F  - Never let ignorance stand in the way of a good argument -
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: schoett@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Oliver Schoett)
Subject: Re: ***What's Going On at IGS??***
Organization: Inst. fuer Informatik, Technische Univ. Muenchen, Germany
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:22:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.230812.14714@husc3.harvard.edu>
liu10@scws2.harvard.edu (Eric Liu) writes:

 > What's going on?   Are all three servers down at the same time?
 > I can't connect to any one of the three servers at berkeley, unm or
 > fr.  I am desperate!  Help!!!!!!!  Please please tell me it ain't 
 > so!!  (Tears....... I can't write any more.  See ya..)

I too have problems with the US servers: from icsib18, I get

   [lida] ping -s icsib18.icsi.berkeley.edu
   PING icsib18.icsi.berkeley.edu: 56 data bytes
   ICMP Net Unreachable from gateway inr-22-dmz.Berkeley.EDU (192.31.161.22)
    for icmp from sunbrau-lida.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (131.159.8.48) to icsib18.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (128.32.201.46)

and from lacerta

   [lida] telnet lacerta.unm.edu 6969
   Trying 129.24.14.70 ...
   telnet: connect: Connection refused

I can reach the French server, but there is hardly anyone on it.

What is the matter with the US servers?

Oliver Schoett     Inst. f. Informatik (H2), Technische Univ. M"unchen
                   Postfach 20 24 20,     8000 M"unchen 2,     Germany
schoett@informatik.tu-muenchen.de    phone +49 89 2105-2399  fax -8207
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: ed@cwis.unomaha.edu (Ed Stastny)
Subject: HELP: Problems getting GO going on Unix
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 16:24:39 GMT

I recently downloaded "inetgo72.sh.Z" from the archive site.  I put into
it's own directory ( (Go) and uncompressed it, I then did a "sh
inetgo72.sh" command.  I read the README file...and then changed the
lines in the Makefile pertaining to directories to "u1/ed/Go".  I then
did the "make" command.  It went fine up until...         
 

loading go...
ld:
Can't locate file for: -ltermlib
*** Error code 1

Stop.


I'm not too experienced with Unix, could someone please tell me what I'm
doing wrong?
 
...e

--
Ed Stastny           *  SOUND News and Arts magazine available now via
ed@cwis.unomaha.edu  *  anon. FTP: quartz.rutgers.edu (/pub/journals)
                     *  or email from me here at cwis.  Soon to return 
(Imagery is reality) *  to the GOPHER server.  Art and writing welcome.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: dagibbs@quantum.on.ca (David Gibbs)
Subject: Re: sakata
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 21:27:16 GMT
Organization: Quantum Software Systems
Summary: in Montreal too

In article <1992Aug18.225031.5389@ists.ists.ca> sizone!justin@ee.ryerson.ca  (Justin Wells) writes:
> Description of Events involving Sakata in Toronto.

Sakata (and Oeda) will be in Montreal following this.  The following
events are planned:

22 August: 7:00 pm simultaneous by Sakata.
23 August: 1:00 pm simultaneous by Oeda
23 August: 7:00 pm simultaneous by Sakata

Fees will be $100 for a game with Sakata and $99 for a game with Oeda.

This is taking place at the Hotel Arcade, sall Bastille;
50 Rene-Levesque West, Montreal
(This is on the corner of St-Urbain, near the metro station
Place-d'Armes).

-David Gibbs
(note: this information taken from a flyer and represents PLANNED events.
 also, I know there are several accents missing from the address. 
 (ie: Ho^tel, Rene' Le'vesque, Montre'al, and that the street signs will
 say Ouest not West.)

Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: Michael_Pizolato@afs.com (Michael Pizolato)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to the Real World
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:57:11 GMT
Reply-To: Michael_Pizolato@afs.com

In article <1992Aug17.211021.1@acad2.alaska.edu> asek@acad2.alaska.edu writes:
[long post deleted]

Yes, yes, and again yes!  Go is Go, and there is no way to Go.

Michael

--
Michael_Pizolato@afs.com
~18 kyu
Q16
NeXTMail appreciated
Xref: sparky rec.games.go:1553 rec.games.chess:6100
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go (& some comparison with Chess)
From: barryp@otago.ac.nz
Date: 16 Aug 92 13:34:26 +1300
 <1992Aug8.223056.836@bqnes74.bnr.ca> <1992Aug16.000330.10375@mits.mdata.fi>
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <1992Aug16.000330.10375@mits.mdata.fi>, karttu@mits.mdata.fi (Antti Karttunen) writes:
>>
>>ie. Will playing go help my chess game? (or the reverse as well?)  Or is it
>>possible they hinder each other?
>>
>>I've heard someone say (once at least a few months ago in this 
>>newsgroup) that after playing go they've noticed their chess game has
>>improved drastically.  Is it possible that training in a strategy game
>>increases one's ability to think strategically and tactically, much in the
>>same way as in-depth study in a technical field improves one's overall
>>problem solving abilities?
>>
> Shogi book I have been reading (Shogi for beginners, by John Fairbairn?)
> claims that many Chess players have found that their Chess abilities
> have improved after playing some Shogi. And in that same book it is told
> that playing strategies/tactics on Shogi have been in turn inspired by Go.
> (At least one thing which you learn with Shogi, is that initiative is _very_
> important in that game.)
> 
> With ordinary chess I nowadays get a kind of claustrophobic feeling.
> 
My own experience wouold indicate that playing go is good for chess playing
ability.  I have always been a better than average non-club chess player.
After a long period of playing no chess but learning go I found I could beat
people at chess that I used to have difficulty with.  Strong chess players
have told me that learning go has helped their chess.  It is interesting to 
note that strong chess players tend toget to shodan quite quickly but have
difficulty progressing beyond.

Barry Phease
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: zsha@iastate.edu (Zhengyu Sha)
Subject: Re: Mac versions of Go that work?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:56:28 GMT

In <4637@news.duke.edu> jfw@neuro.duke.edu (John F. Whitehead) writes:

>I'm trying to find a version of Go that will work on a Mac.  I have
>gotten MacGo and Dragon from milton, but neither will work.  Though
>the hqx and sit files were converted with no errors, the programs
>crash the machine when executed.  I am running System 7, so perhaps
>that's the problem.  Does anyone have a pointer to a good Mac game
>that works with System 7?

	I don't think the problems come from System 7. Dragon can not 
run on Mac IIsi with System 6 but works well on Mac IIcx with System 6.
MacGo can only work on Mac 512?
>Thanks!

>-- 
> ________________________________________________________________________
>|   John      jfw@neuro.duke.edu          Duke University Medical Center |
>| Whitehead   jfw@well.sf.ca.us           Department of Neurobiology     |
>|________________________________________ Durham, North Carolina ________|

-- 
================================================================
 Zhengyu Sha             l    2188 Molecular Biology Building   l
 Phone No. (515)294-4210 l    ISU, Ames,Iowa 50011              l
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.)
Subject: Emotive Go
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 13:01:05 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Followup-To: rec.games.go
Keywords: go analogy life power chess

In article <gary.714100363@suite.sw.oz.au> gary@suite.sw.oz.au (Gary Corby) writes:
>Playing a 
>hard fought chess game can be an emotional rollercoaster.  Go is much more
>emotionally even.

Dunno if I can agree with that one....
Go players seem to be much more sedate playing the game than do chess players-
but a good game of go is anything buy 'emotionally even'. Circling ones
opponent in the beginning until one of you snaps and pounces in an attack-
then you both struggle to gain the upperhand on your opponent- pulling out
tricky plays, running away as necessary- the relief of creating life or
connecting- or the thrill of running your opponents dead shape into your
power structure.

Win a one point game off a ko in yose and tell me Go isn't emotional :)
Also- look over some of the old pro games that have been posted here
recently. One doesn't need to understand the meaning behind all the moves
(heck, I only understand about half of 'em myself) to feel the thrill of
the back-and-forth struggling. Good games.

r. (~5kyu, but studying my tesuji, finally :)
ps- of course, there was the time at Go-club a couple o' weeks back where we
all had a really good laugh at a player who pointed out to us that a certain
group was alive (a 20 kyu could have spotted that), then proceded to play
in his own group 'to make sure they were alive'. Later, he points out a spot
that 'makes them absolutely alive' (they were that already), then later
proceeds to play in that very spot- missing a really huge connecting move
that killed half of his groups. That was funny. Oh, don't get paranoid, he
later thought it was sorta amusing too :)