HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: [NOT A REPOST] Re: [news.sysadmin, et al.] Re: a.b.p.e. distribution 
Originator: kadie@eff.org
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:16:34 GMT

morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) writes:

[...]
>Please, please, PLEASE, can't you just say "there's an interesting discussion
>over in news.sysadmin; check it out"??!!
[...]

I reposted those three articles because they provided new information
and speculation about the removal of newsgroups at the U. of
Washington.

>It gets rather annoying to see articles two and three times, thanks to
>such reposting;

You should see the articles at most two times. I reposted only to
alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk. The reposted article are marked to help
you avoid reading them even a second time.

[...]
>(In this case, more sites carry news.sysadmin than carry alt.comp.
>acad-freedom.talk, but we're reposting to the smaller group with the poorer 
>distribution!)  
[...]

Although news.sysadmin has wider distribution, it does not have the
same distribution. Almost 400 people read CAF-Talk and CAF-News via
mailing lists. Moreover, CAF-Talk is archived, digested, abstracted,
etc., while news.sysadmin is not.

- Carl
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
 =kadie@eff.org, kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: gbrown@Rosie.UH.EDU (G. Brown)
Subject: test
Reply-To: gbrown@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:01:12 GMT
From: evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk (Mark Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: Re: Preventing Sexual Harassment?
Date: 9 Nov 92 08:12:09 GMT
Organization: Aston University

escheire@sunlab.cit.cornell.edu (Eric Scheirer) writes:
: 
: Mark Evans (evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk) writes...
: 
: > The problem appears to be that the laws are being implemented (if not written)
: > in such a way that getting people to sit down and talk to one another is made
: > more difficult (rather than easier). 
: .
: .
: .
: > One thing, you could sue without having to ask her to do anything,
: > without even attempting to sort this out using any form of negotiation.
: > (also you can also sue anyone who attempts to tell you that talking with
: > either the individual concerned, their supervisor, an indenpendent 
: > negotiator, might be a sensible course of action)
: 
: Your postings seem to keep suggesting that all that is needed to take
: care of sexual (and implicitly, other harassment) is for the involved
: parties to sit down and have a good little chat.
: 
: After all, we're all reasonable people here, aren't we?

The legal solution also works fine when the people involved are being reasonable.
: 
: I don't think anyone here is denying that this is the best solution
: WHEN IT WORKS.  The question is, what to do when it doesn't.  Reasonable
: people can still disagree -- I can quite reasonably believe that 
: my putting a racy GIF on my background window is protected speech; I 
: also think it's reasonable that my (female) supervisor would find it
: bothersome.  
: 
: If she asked me, being who I am, I would most likely agree to take it down.
: But the issue at stake here is, what if I felt sufficiently strongly about
: my right to view such images that I refused?  If no compromise can be reached,
: and if neither party will back down, one side must give in.  Sometime, the
: question of "who should back down" must ultimately be settled in the courts.
: 
However the way you have things set up, the powerfull presure groups make it 
most likely that it will be the person being complaind about who will most
probably have to not only back down. But also be legally herassed and bullied
into doing so.

: I don't dispute in the least that U.S. society has become far too litigious,
: what with marriage contracts and multi-million "negligence" lawsuits, which
: I think is your implicit point.  But I think your "let's be reasonable" 
: argument gives short shrift to what I see as a very valid argument regarding
: constitutional conflict.

Well what to you surgest then.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Evans                                   |evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk
+(44) 21 565 1979 (Home)                     |evansmp@cs.aston.ac.uk
+(44) 21 359 6531 x4039 (Office)             |
Xref: sparky alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk:3343 comp.admin.policy:1480
From: martelli@cadlab.sublink.org (Alex Martelli)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Preventing Sexual Harassment?
Date: 6 Nov 92 07:38:39 GMT
Organization: CAD.LAB S.p.A., Bologna, Italia

jaw@owlnet.rice.edu (Joseph A. Watters) writes:
	...
:It is policy because it is the law regarding sexual harassment, not
:harassment in general.  The unwelcome behavior must be of a sexual
:nature.  In the case of sexual harassment complaints, the supervisor is

I think you're missing a crucial point.  This discussion, we should
recall, started about the alleged "sexual harassment" nature of what a
user chooses to display on hir windowed-screen background.  If such
choices, which are so obviously in the nature of free-speech
expressions, are to be labeled "sexual harassment" under the "hostile
environment" doctrine, then the "must be of a sexual nature" clause
which you take as a given (and would make sense!) is NOT guaranteed AT
ALL.

If display of a scantily clad female body is "of a sexual nature",
then why not the display of a scantily clad young male nailed to a
cross and wearing a cross of thorns?  Thus, no crucifixes allowed,
I presume.  Similarly for other religious depictions, such as naked
Ishtar descending to Hell, Botticelli's Venus, Bosch's Inferno (LOTS
of nudity there!), and so on and so forth.

And why stop at graphics?  Isn't wearing a pink T-shirt emblazoned with
"GAY, AND PROUD OF IT!"  a similarly "sexual nature" behavior?
Homophobes would certainly feel it unwelcome and hostile.  And what if
the message is "MY BODY, MY CHOICE!"?  And the pink-shirt example which
you were responding to is NOT as silly as you seem to imagine:  a male's
wearing pink, even without the accompanying words, IS taken (in certain
circles) as a signal of out-of-the-closet homosexuality, a "sexual
nature" message not that much different from the gay-liberation one
mentioned above, or from displaying a Mapplethorpe photo on your
office's wall, or on your workstation screen's background...

The threshold, in my humble opinion, was crossed when it was conceded
that a "free expression"-nature act, such as the choice of what to
wear or what to display in one's personal working environment, was
in any way equivalent to "harassing" somebody else sexually, with
unwelcome sexual advances.  This way bleakest censorship, dress codes,
and tiranny lay...
-- 
Email: martelli@cadlab.sublink.org                   Phone: ++39 (51) 6130360
CAD.LAB s.p.a., v. Ronzani 7/29, Casalecchio, Italia   Fax: ++39 (51) 6130294 
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: [news.sysadmin, et al.] Re: Contraband data on the Net (again)
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,news.sysadmin,news.admin.policy
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 04:33:29 GMT

[A repost - Carl]

Newsgroups: news.sysadmin,news.admin.policy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Contraband data on the Net (again)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:27:54 GMT

jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz) writes:
>And that being the case, under
>current precedent, certain federal law enforcement agencies can come
>to every single Net site and seize every piece of electronic
>equipment there.  Yes, this includes YOU, even if your site is at
>a powerful large corporation or major university.  Admittedly, it's
>not very likely, but it is possible, and it HAS HAPPENED.  Sites
>that were Netnews and UUCP nodes have been seized by the secret
>service as "evidence" in cases involving "stolen" data,

       This is a gross exaggeration.  For a while back in 1990, there
were indeed problems like this.  But after much legal and political
effort, they have been mostly resolved.  The two prosecutors most
active in such activities (Cook and Thackary) lost their jobs.  
The Secret Service agents involved are being sued in Federal court.  
(Steve Jackson Games vs various persons).   The Sturges case in San
Francisco ended up being a big political embarassment for the FBI.
Read "The Hacker Crackdown" and get up to date.

       We may see seizures incident to felony arrests, but I don't
think that at least Federal law enforcement will do any more BBS seizures
unless they have a good chance of a felony conviction.

					John Nagle
-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: [comp.org.eff.talk] Re: Query: Can Universities limit network access &/or 'spy` on users?
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:54:35 GMT
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.org.eff.talk
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

[A repost - Carl]

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Query: Can Universities limit network access &/or 'spy` on users?
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 16:09:48 GMT

In article <1992Nov2.041052.28698@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> michaelb@cse.fau.edu (Michael Rogero Brown) writes:
>What infuriates me is HOW WOULD THEY KNOW HOW PEOPLE ARE USING THIS STUFF?  
>The only why I see that they would know is if they are spying on student 
>activties, ie reading their mail to see if its serious or not, etc.  Frankly
>this is totally unethical, but is it illegal?  I would think users would have
>some right to privacy in their accounts from the sysadms spying on them.

Nope, you have no rights whatsoever.  Public telnet gateways throughout
the world are logged and everyone who uses them should be aware of this.

The ostensible reason for this monitoring to to catch people hacking other
systems, but I see no way of stopping unprincipled sysnazis from using the
information for their own gain.

G
(If anyone knows of any *laws* that stop sysnazis monitoring
accounts and telnet sessions, especially in Britain, please post)
-- 
-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: [news.sysadmin, et al.] Re: a.b.p.e. distribution (was, Re: Does USENET condone CHILD
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:03:05 GMT
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,news.sysadmin,news.admin,news.admin.policy,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

[A repost - Carl]

From: kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron)
Newsgroups: news.sysadmin,news.admin,news.admin.policy,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d
Subject: Re: a.b.p.e. distribution (was, Re: Does USENET condone CHILD 
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:52:13 GMT

josh@cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) writes:

>Now, I suspect that reasons 1 and 2 as given in my previous post
>are what really drove this decision, but maybe not. Hard to believe
>that they couldn't just have put a pretty quick expire time on the
>a.b.p. groups and let it go, but I guess they didn't want to.

A quick "du" of alt/binaries here (1k per block):

90	alt/binaries/sounds/misc
1	alt/binaries/sounds/erotica
169	alt/binaries/sounds/d
261	alt/binaries/sounds
10	alt/binaries/pictures/utilities
10	alt/binaries/pictures/tasteless
5367	alt/binaries/pictures/misc
5	alt/binaries/pictures/fractals
1	alt/binaries/pictures/fine-art/graphics
1	alt/binaries/pictures/fine-art/digitized
1	alt/binaries/pictures/fine-art/d
4	alt/binaries/pictures/fine-art
1	alt/binaries/pictures/erotica/male
1	alt/binaries/pictures/erotica/female
274	alt/binaries/pictures/erotica/d
1	alt/binaries/pictures/erotica/blondes
6697	alt/binaries/pictures/erotica
57	alt/binaries/pictures/d
12151	alt/binaries/pictures
1	alt/binaries/multimedia
12414	alt/binaries

This is on a monday with a two-day expiry time.  Volume is always lower
after a weekend; that last number could easily hit 20 megs by friday.
(Not to mention the occasional volume surges.  It's quite common to
receive over 5 megs in a.b.p.e in one day.)

There are whole hierarchies with less volume than
alt.binaries.pictures; misc for example only has 17 megs at the moment,
and we keep that for seven days (some of the groups for longer).

Don't judge your news admin until you've walked a mile in his shoes...
-- 
Kenneth Herron                                              kherron@ms.uky.edu
University of Kentucky                                         +1 606 257 2975
Dept. of Mathematics     "Your ball goes over them, it sails off the edge into
a huge cauldren of fire-breathing dragons."  "And they call this a par three?"
-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: [comp.admin.policy, et al.] Re: What about child pornography?
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy,news.admin.policy
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:21:19 GMT

[A repost - Carl]

From: kehres@ima.com (Tim Kehres)
Newsgroups: comp.admin.policy,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: What about child pornography?
Date: 10 Nov 92 08:26:08 GMT

In article <BxF1uy.Bzs@news.iastate.edu> john@iastate.edu (John Hascall) writes:

> How about this amazingly radical concept...
> 
>   If something is illegal for your site, you delete it from your site.

How about another amazingly radical concept...

Most sites (or at least those not part of .edu) are around for reasons other
than to just support news, and their admins perform news administration as
a peripheral activity.  To monitor every single image that goes through a
site with a full alt feed is a *very* significant resource in time, one in
which most companies will not be able to cost justify.  I doubt that all
administrators will be dying to spend all their waking non-billable hours 
monitoring this stuff just to make sure they did not miss some illegal posting.

Lets get real about this - either we are able to police ourselves, or several
(many?) sites will join the ranks of those banning the erotic picture groups
from their sites.  Only this time, those choosing to censor the groups will
be doing so due to the legal implications of carrying the traffic, not 
necessarily because of how they feel toward the actual images posted.  There
will not be any facist admins to blame this time around - only those foolish
posters that could not control what they posted.

Regards,

Tim Kehres
-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: [comp.admin.policy] Help - infgo needed on other student run computers
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:52:24 GMT

[A repost - Carl]

From: boottrax@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Boot Trax)
Newsgroups: comp.admin.policy
Subject: Help - infgo needed on other student run computers
Date: 4 Nov 1992 17:38:54 GMT


 Hi, I represent a student organized and administrated computer organization
for my campus - Univeristy of Wisconsin Milwaukee.  We have currently been
petitioning for funds for a campus wide Unix server. The server would be
open to all faculty and students. It would be maintained and administeredby
our organization.  It would be used from programming to entertainment to
being accessible to all the profesiional groups here.

 The student association here wants us to gain information on other campus
organizations that have been able to do what we are trying to do.


Please mail me any info on how your groups are funded and organized. How
you gained the equipment, from whom, and any other quality information.


				Thank you,
				Perry Lea
				Treasurer UBS




-- 
(( boottrax@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ))         Basement Software Products           ))
 ))                                   'Keeping my opinions to myself'       ((
((         Network Analysis - Systems Design - Software Engineering          ))
 ))      Make a system foolproof, and only a fool will want to use it       ((
-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: gaddieml@lp.musc.edu
Subject: CAF
Originator: daemon@eff.org
Organization: EFF mail-news gateway
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:37:45 GMT

add comp-academic-freedom-news

THX, Marsha JCC class of '82
THX, Marsha JCC class of '82












                             
Xref: sparky alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk:3339 comp.admin.policy:1472
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: [news.sysadmin, et al.] a.b.p.e. distribution (was, Re: Does USENET condone CHILD PORNOGRAPHY?)
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:02:13 GMT
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,news.sysadmin,news.admin,news.admin.policy,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

[A repost - Carl]

From: josh@cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.sysadmin,news.admin,news.admin.policy,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d
Subject: a.b.p.e. distribution (was, Re: Does USENET condone CHILD PORNOGRAPHY?)
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:19:21 GMT

Man, that's some keyword list...

Here at the U of Washington, alt.sex.pictures (the forerunner of
alt.binaries.pictures.erotica) was removed from the feed for a
couple of reasons:

1) It's pornography! Tax dollars paying for pornography! Eeeeewwww!

I don't have a lot of sympathy for that line, actually...my tax
dollars pay for evil all over the world, why draw the line at
pictures of people with no clothes on?

2) Much or all of the material distributed in the group is copyright
material, distributed without permission of the author.

This argument, it seems to me, holds some weight. It would be, of
course, illegal to distribute copyright material without the permission
of the creator of the work. Elf's stories, for example, have been
posted by Elf. Fair enough. a.b.p.e. has recently contained, for
example, scans of Sports Illustrated swimsuit shots, I gather. This
is a no-no.

I think net.users (and certainly net.administrators) have to make
decisions on this matter: is it likely that their particular piece
of .net will disappear if they continue (or begin) to carry this
froup? Is it worth it to them/their users to run that risk? Here
the administrators argued, successfully, that we could lose large
chunks of network access as a consquence of carrying this a.s.p.;
it was deep-sixed. No complaint from me.

Josh Hayes

--
Josh Hayes, Quantitative Sciences HR-20 U of Washington
josh@mowgli.cqs.washington.edu             206 543-5004
      We got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand.
-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: [comp.org.eff.talk]  right to have .plan
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.org.eff.talk
Originator: kadie@eff.org
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:29:27 GMT

[A repost - Carl]

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: moon@Virginia.EDU (M. Yi)
Subject:  right to have .plan
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 20:13:11 GMT

recently i recieve a complaint about my .plan file
which contains quote from the book of isaiah.  one
user in my system accuses, "[i was] protelyzing over
system."  i consider this as a challege in my freedom
of expressing my thought and freedom of religion.

is it freedom of speech valid in cyberworld?

since this is not a whole complaint, but a part of it,
administator's action might be irrelavant to this
issue.  but i don't want to take disadvantage of
loosing my right to expressing faith through .plan.
because of my other faults.

munho yi
moon@virginia.edu
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
 =kadie@eff.org, kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.org.eff.talk,comp.admin.policy,alt.censorship,soc.college
From: gbrown@Rosie.UH.EDU (G. Brown)
Subject: test
Reply-To: gbrown@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:01:45 GMT


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        | "God is, as it were, the sewer into which          |
                        |       all contradictions flow"                     |
Gregory Brown           |                                                    |
GBROWN@JETSON.UH.EDU    |            --G. W. F. Hegel                        |
                        |   Lectures on the History of Philosophy            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.news
From: latarra@camelot.bradley.edu (Lisa Ehren)
Subject: To Have and To Hold
Organization: Bradley University
Date:  9 Nov 92 05:43:56 GMT

This is another "poem"/catharsis <if I know the right definition of that
word>, and I hope you all don't mind my putting this here, but it's good
"news" to me, and I don't know where else ot put this.

To have and to hold,
To feel the warmth of his body
Next to mine, as his breathing slows.
I massage his arms gently
Moving to his shoulders.
He tenses at my touch,
But I calm him, bring him down,
Back to my world.
How I wish I could have visited him in his.

-For Deac...though he doesn't know why, yet  :)-


Actually, I do have some good news:  I  have become friends with a bunch of
good people, people who can help me become who I want to be, who I have the
potential of being, who I once dreamed of being, but never could before
now.

Good cheer to all, and to all, a good night.
From: swoodwar@zeus.calpoly.edu (Swo Odwar)
Newsgroups: alt.good.news
Subject: Re: Third decade suggestions
Date: 5 Nov 92 06:40:13 GMT
Organization: VoidSoft Ink.

pcunnell@micrognosis.co.uk (Paul Cunnell) had the unmitigated audacity to say:
>Some good news: it's my 30th birthday this week, and my wife wants
>to buy me something nice. Problem is: what should I ask for ? It 
>was going to be a nice new fretless bass, but with an 11-month old
>son around, and a house in need of lots of redecoration, I can't see
>that I'd have much time to play it.

You definitely want a statue of Satan then.

-- 
OHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTF 
                guvf vf zl arj ebg guvegrra fvt. ubcr lbh yvxr vg. 

OHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTFOHTF
From: zsepsey@cs.ruu.nl (Zsuzsanna Sepsey)
Newsgroups: alt.good.news
Subject: scholarship
Summary: I'm here !!!
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:35:30 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

I'm a 20 y.o. Hungarian student studying compter science. I've got a TEMPUS-
scholarship this year and I can spend 10 months at the University of Utrecht
in the Netherlands. I've just arrived and I'm very excited how I'll be able
to find my way here.

Many thanks to all those dutch students who helped me so far.

	      			    zsepsey@cs.ruu.nl


P.S. I'll be glad to hear from other students with same experiences.
From: latarra@camelot.bradley.edu (Lisa Ehren)
Newsgroups: alt.good.news
Subject: Re: my roomie
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:56:15 GMT
Organization: Bradley University

In <1992Nov6.151453.17458@ornl.gov> de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill) writes:

>>-><btw, I'm bisexual...:)>
>>And if I'm not mistaken, you're also a muffin (if not, my humblest apologies)
>Muffin?  That's a new one on me.  What does it mean?

Muffin is a soc.bi term for a person who reads, but doesn't post.  Roy
thought that that was my first post to soc.bi.  Actually it wasn't, but
I'll take the hugs anyway...:)