From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: Logging PIC (sorry ... sigh )
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 16:17:05 GMT

Sigh.  Let's not shout about logging questions.  Except to decry their
frequency of occurence....  i.e. AARGH!  NO MORE LOGGING QUESTIONS!
Now that that's out of the way...

In article <BvGEyp.4y7@taligent.com> cep@taligent.com (Christophe Pettus)
writes:
> A student pilot cannot log PIC time.  Period.  FAR 61.51 is quite
> explicit.  Now, since the most common case is that a student pilot goes

In article <1992Oct2.155743.121@cbnews.cb.att.com> tel@cbnews.cb.att.com
(thomas.e.lester) writes:
> Eh ??   Excuse me but....
> 61.51 item 2 "Pilot in Command Flight Time"
> "for which the pilot is rated OR IS THE SOLE OCCUPANT OF THE AIRCRAFT"
>
> How do you get "quite explicit" out of that.  Sounds to me like a student
> logs pic on solo.

One gets "quite explicit" by reading the entire sentence, and not quoting
fragments of FARs out of context:

  (2) Pilot-in-command flight time.
      (i)  A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log as pilot in
           command time only that flight time during which that pilot
           (1)  is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft
                for which the pilot is rated, OR
           (2)  when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, OR,
           (3)  except for a recreational pilot, when acting as pilot in
                command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot
                is required under
                (a)  the type certification of the aircraft, or
                (b)  the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
 
[The extra indentation and numbering is mine.] Notice that this clause
applies only to holders of recreational, private, or commercial pilot
certificates.  Student pilots do not hold such a certificate.  Students
log solo flight time under the preceding section of our favorite FAR,
61.51(c):

 (1) Solo flight time. A pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight
     time when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft.  However, a
     student pilot may also log as solo flight time that time during
     which he acts as the pilot in command of an airship requiring more
     than one flight crewmember.

This clause has no restriction as to the class of pilot certificate which
is required.

It is interesting to note that ATPs do not log PIC time under 61.51(c)(2)(i);
they must use 61.51(c)(2)(ii):

    (ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in command time all
         of the flight time during which he acts as pilot in command.

which seems to be eminently logical and sensible.  So the simple solution
to ending this logging discussion is that you all must rush out and get
the ATP certificate.  :-)

Oh, so you don't have 1500 hours?  How about getting your CFI -- then you
can use 61.51(c)(2)(iii):

     (iii) A certificated flight instructor may log as pilot in command
	   time all flight time during which he acts as a flight
	   instructor.

Hmmm.  I just noticed that the FAA will no doubt have to rewrite this
rule a bit ... change all occurrences of "he" to "the pilot" or
"the instructor".  Now that should clear things up just fine.

							Geoff