From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Isaiah does not prophesy Christ
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<78703@hydra.gatech.EDU>
Date: 22 Dec 1992 04:49:47 UTC

In article <78703@hydra.gatech.EDU> 
rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>Do these notes from the JPS not say that there is uncertainity here,
>yet you say there is none????

Let's not confuse issues now. The note in the JPS means that the HEBREW
is uncertain, not that it can not be translated correctly. If you take
your time and read the passage and the note, you will see that the best
attempt is made to explain what the words could mean. This is quite
different than the apparent fabrication that you posted. Just because
the meaning of the Hebrew words are not clear does not give one free
license to fabricate or make up words that are not in existance.

>Much less they even say that these
>verses may respresent a transition, which is what the NIV has.

No, you're getting confused. Study the words and the notes and see if you
can figure it out. The note does not mean that you can transition to
what you want to see, but no doubt you will do that anyway.

>PAUL HARVEY - I've asked before and have yet to see your reply.
>WHY IS IT THAT YOUR GUYS (JPS) CAN MASTER BOTH ENGLISH AND HEBREW
>BUT NO ONE ELSE CAN OR HAS?????
>If you think I keep missing it, email it directly to me.

I've answered this before, in fact it was even the topic of a prior
thread and it keeps coming up and not only from me. First of all, JPS
are not my guys! JPS is the Jewish Publication Society, they have been
in business since 1888 and their mission is to translate Hebrew
documents, both secular and sacred as well as children's books, into
English. It is not a religious organization and they are not on a
mission to convert anyone to their cause. So, the JPS translation of the
Hebrew scriptures is solely an academic effort. Followers of Judaism
study the Hebrew Scriptures directly in Hebrew and have no need or use
of an English translation. This task of correctly translating across
language families, from Biblical Hebrew to Modern English is not an easy
one. If I recall correctly, it took ten years for the JPS team just to
translate the Torah. No doubt the effort involved and the desire by
certain Christians to manipulate the translation, to conform to what they
want, leads to translation errors in other English versions. Regarding
the quality of the JPS translation:
"1986 Special Publication Award" - Biblical Archaeology Society
"The first entirely new English version of the Scriptures based on the
original Hebrew text."	-New York Times
"Unrivaled as a precise and elegant rendering of the Hebrew text ...
invaluable for both casual Bible readers and serious Bible students."
- Biblical Archaeology Review
"The strength ... of the new Bible, rendered directly from the Hebrew to
English, is that is ignores the wording of all past Christian
translation and turns Holy Writ into fresh, understandable, contemporary
language ..." -TIME Magazine.

>|Richard! The point is plain and simple. The Hebrew text does not say
>|virgin! To translate the Hebrew for young woman into virgin is to add to
>|the text! Please read your Revelations 22:18-19 for the details of what
>|will happen when one adds to the text.
>Paul! The point is plain - you don't want it to say virgin or even
>imply virgin, do you?

I don't care either way! I want an accurate translation, that's all,
nothing more and nothing less. If the Hebrew says virgin, fine, but it
does not! GET IT! THE HEBREW DOES NOT SAY VIRGIN! It does not matter what
you or I want or don't want it to say! IT DOES NOT SAY VIRGIN! GET IT?
IT'S A FACT! Do you understand the meaning of fact?

>Are you saying that this word cannot mean virgin? 

Look it up in a dictionary. Read what the NIV has to say about it and
the NRSV. Use your mind for a change. Read the other posts on t.r.m.
WAKE UP! The creator created you with a mind, use it!

>Are you saying that a young maid (prior to marriage) cannot
>be understood as being a virgin?

Are you saying that a young maid prior to marriage is a virgin? Are you
saying that a young woman with child is a virgin, even it the text does
not say she is? Are you saying that a young woman with child is not
married, even if the text does not say she is not? If someone points out
a young woman with child to you, do you automatically assume she is a
virgin and is unmarried? Do you have any reading comprehension skills?

>|>The KJV is considered a very accurate translation - it is a little
>|>archaic in style, but that doesn't mean it is inaccurate.
>|Nice try. The KJV is *not* a very accurate translation as it
>|relied heavily on the Septuagint, another *not* very accurate translation.
>It is an accurate translation based on the then available evidence.

No, it is not. The Masoretic text was available at the time of the KJV,
in fact it was even used to correct translation mistakes in the Septuagint.

>|Obviously your standards aren't very high and you demonstrate quite well
>|the lengths that some Christians are willing to go to make reality
>|match what they want to see. Do you really think you can lie your way
>|into heaven?
>Again, what do you, Mr. Harvey, consider valid Scripture?  Only
>the OT?  Again, email me directly, if you think I've missed your
>response.

This question has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

>|Clearly you have given us insite on your approach to Scripture. That
>|being: make it conform by whatever means necessary, including gross
>|mistranslation, to the picture you want to see. Who do you think you're
>|fooling Richard? Do you have a problem with honesty? Do you have a
>|problem with the truth? Do you have a problem with fidelity?
>It is nice to see how you aviod the question.  What is Scripture
>to you - answer this, please.

This question has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

>I know the truth - it is Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, the Annointed
>One, God in human flesh, the Lord Almighty.  Which truth do you
>know and what are you doing with it and what is the eternal benefit
>to you?

Everything's a power game to you, isn't it?
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc