HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: shape of Ea before end of second era ?
Date: 11 Jan 1993 14:52:27 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <C0oLLx.52x@sci.kun.nl> erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier) writes:
>Paul Gunderson writes,
>
>>Just a simple thought on this.  Since Tolkien's early maps show the world as
>>a hemisphere (more or less), perhaps the Ainur were seeing it from only one
>>side?  Face on, so to speak?  :-)
>
>I don't think so, the Silmarillion states the vision showed a sphere
>(if the choise of words isn't correct, this is because I only read the
>Dutch version of the Silmarillion). I talked about this with a friend,
>and he couldn't think of an explanation on this problem (inconcistancy?) too !
>
>Can anybody shine his light on this?
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)

I went home after making my light-hearted reply and pulled my copy of the
_Silmarillion_ off its shelf and re-read the Ainulindale.  The operative
quotation is this:

"`Behold your music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight
where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before
them, and it was >globed< amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but
was not of it."

The problem seems to be one of translation.  (I should have noticed your Net
.sig address and not been so flip with my reply.  Mea Culpa.)  Globe and
sphere have very similar meanings -- round 3D objects.

Tolkien used the term "globed" very carefully, I think.  Illuvatar created
the World and encased it in a bubble -- shutting the Void out.  The *shape*
of the World is not indicated in this passage at all.

Hope this helps.

----
Paul Gunderson
paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
From: paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Entish appearance in Silmarillion
Date: 12 Jan 1993 15:27:32 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <1993Jan11.220701@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F
Fitzgerald) writes:
[in part]
>The fact that hobbits are not mentioned in the Silmarillion is
>_exactly_ my point.  The origins of men are given; the origins
>of elves are given; the origins of dwarves, orcs, trolls, dragons
>are given.  Note that _even_ the origins of _ents_ are given,
>although the doings of ents are mentioned _nowhere at all_ in
>the Silmarillion (or at least nowhere that I can remember).  You
>may say that "Hobbits are not important to the Quenta Silmar-
>illion," but the same may be said of ents, and yet their origin
>_is_ mentioned in the Quenta.
>
>--
>Charles F. Fitzgerald

The ents *are* mentioned in the _Silmarillion_.  After the Dwarves kill
Thingol, sack Doriath and carry off the Silmaril (and necklace); Beren
leaves the land of the dead that live and, with the help of the "shepherds
of the trees", attacks and destroys the Dwarvish host.

This is all from memory and has nothing to do with the ongoing "Hobbit
Origin Question".

----
Paul Gunderson
paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Galadriel at kinslaying
Date: 5 Jan 1993 18:53:05 GMT
Organization: RSUC -- Russell Street UNIX & Caffeine
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu

In article <1icfpoINN8m6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>Some things seem to be evident though:
[ ... ]
>2) She was present at the kinslaying but was not a participant, this is the
>reason that she was banned from Valinor.
she did participate, in the defence of the swan-ships against the sons of
Feanor, I think.

>3) It is unclear wether she went with Feanor to middle earth or followed
>Fingolfin.
I believe she went with Fingolfin.  She didn't get along too well with Feanor,
and went to Middle Earth for her own reasons.

(just my two cents' worth)

	Mike
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cos@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Ofer Inbar)
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:23:57 GMT

Paivi.Hyvarinen@hut.fi (Paivi Helena Hyvarinen) writes:
>owned by Musiikki Fazer, (P) 1983 (whatever _that_ means...).

(P) stands for "phonorecord" and is the analogue of (C)opyright.  A "P
in a circle" symbol, at least in US law, marks an authorized audio
copy of a copyrighted work.

>Any more Tolkien-inspired music, anyone?

I'm not sure, but on Enya's newest album, there's a song titled
Lothlorien.  I don't remember the name of the album, but it's the
third one, with Caribbean Blue on it.  Lothlorien is instrumental, and
there are no liner notes about it, so I can't tell whether it's
Tolkien-inspired or not.  But if it is, the music does fit the
setting.

  --  Cos (Ofer Inbar)  --  cos@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu
  --  Program Director & Engineer  --  WBRS@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
 All genre ethnic diversity          24 hours a day, 365 days a year
 Free live music four times weekly   WBRS in Waltham, 100.1FM stereo
From: d90-two@dront.nada.kth.se (Thomas Wolmer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil), and Maiar/N
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:23:52 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <kc-3cf#@rpi.edu> schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir) writes:
[...]
>
>Also, and I am not sure where, Tolkien himself discusses the number and 
>power of Balrogs.  In the Fall of Goldolin, there were hordes of them, yet
>later Tolkien says there were only a few.  Obviously, the power of  a Balrog
>depends on when the story it was in was written.    
>
I think it's Christopher who makes these comments. In the early Silmarillion
version they were many but not very powerful, later (in the sense of
writing-time) they became few, "not more than seven", and more formidable.

-- 
 _.^._  |\_|\_|\ V2.0 /|_/|_/|"There's no tomorrow,           |
[_<X>_] Thomas Wolmer        | just sadness and sorrow        |
  !_!   d90-two@nada.kth.se  | Hold on to the Ancient Dreams" |
  IOI   Angantyr on IRC      |  - Candlemass "Ancient Dreams" |
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao Akella)
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Reply-To: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu
Organization: Colon Cancer Control Study, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:15:11 GMT


Time to update Tolkien's Advice, I think...

Do not meddle in the affairs of a.f.t. posters, for they are subtle and quick
to anger.

If you can't take the heat, you haven't learnt a damn thing from Usenet.

-- Rao Akella    <rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu, rao%moose@umnacvx.bitnet>

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Subject: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil)
Reply-To: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 03:40:44 GMT

Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy] writes:
>If halflings were human-relations snuck in by Eru later on ....

Throughout the discussions of Bombadil's origins I have been
puzzled by the question, "From whence did hobbits come?"  All
other major races seem to have their origins fairly well 
nailed down in the Silmarillion, but hobbits (at least in 
my memory) are left out.  I always put this down to the idea
expressed by Pippin when talking to Treebeard that hobbits are
always getting left out, but now I am not sure.

Is there any evidence to prove the assertion that they were
"human-relations," and if so, where does it appear?

--
Charles F. Fitzgerald | '....Life's but a walking shadow,
Iowa State University | a poor player, that struts, and frets
cffitzge@iastate.edu  | his hour upon the stage,
                      | and then is heard from no more....'
                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Date: 5 Jan 1993 19:00:03 GMT
Organization: RSUC -- Russell Street UNIX & Caffeine
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu

In article <1993Jan05.131626.6278@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell) writes:
>Look back to see how each of the good guys had a chance to take the ring: 
>Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Galadriel, Boromir, Faramir, etc. Each was presented
>by Eru with a chance (a test perhaps), but their own freewill governed their 
>decision.

a chance for them, but were they destined to refuse those offers?  It's an
unanswerable question, unfortunately.  It's merely my interpretation--
those people were destined to get their chence at the ring, and had they
chosen, `yes' or `no', it would only have been a reflection of Eru's
purpose for them to do so.

But before we argue this, let me re-iterate, it is only my interpretation.
I'm not aware of any supporting evidence for or against my theory, so I
will only call it a theory...

	Me.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)

Comments, etc. welcome as always...


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU (Sandy O'Donnell)
Subject: Calendar & some books
Reply-To: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:41:11 GMT

I know there was a person asking for info on where to get the 1993
calendar but I lost their name so if you're reading here it is.
 The Minds Eye catalog you can call toll free at 1-800-227-2020
to order it. the item # 850-4 $10.00, they also have cassette
tapes and t-shirts of lotr.
   Also while I was shopping in a book warehouse I picked up the
most delightful book. The Father Christmas Letters by JRRT. It
is the letters that jrrt sent to his children every christmas
from santa (father christmas) from 1925 thru 1938. This is really
a treasure for any Tolkien fan, and guess what?? It only cost me
$2.00. They had about 30 left on their Christmas clearance shelf.
If any of you in netland live in South Eastern Mass or near, write
me and I'll give directions. 
   Also at this same book store, I picked up After The King,
 It contains 19 stories by jrrt's literary decendants who have
 contributed original works of fantasy to this memorial collection
 in honor of jrrts 100th anniv. of his birth. Some of the
collections are by Poul Anderson, Stephen Donaldson, Peter Beagle
Patricia Mckillip, Robert Silverberg...to name a few. I got this
lovely hardcover for only $4.95. I also got Lost Tales I & II for
$3.95 each. I haven't read these yet.
 Also I got Bilbos Last Song for $4.95 which is more
of a simple illustrated hard book. Oh! I just love a bargain.
Merry Christmas to me!!!!!
...............................Sandy



All that is gold does not glitter
  Not all those who wander are lost;

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM (Terry Gardner)
Subject: Re: Gandalf as Olorin (was Re: Bombadil etc.)
	<TJG01.92Dec31093404@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM>
	<1hvqb9INNg55@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
	<MVOORHIS.92Dec31174735@granite.WPI.EDU>
Organization: Home Depot USA, Inc.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:48:34 GMT

In article <MVOORHIS.92Dec31174735@granite.WPI.EDU> mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:
   In article <1hvqb9INNg55@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> bafta@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (dragon-monster) writes:
   >    I seem to recall that Saruman is identified with an Elvish named Maia
   >    but as I am at work I cannot possibly recall where.  In the Silmarillion
   >    appendix, mayhap, or possibly the LoTR appendix.

   The Unfinished Tales name Saruman as the Maia Curumo.  It is in the section
   of that book called `the Istari'.  I'm not immediately aware of any
   references to this name in LoTR.  The elves called him Curunir.

Is not `Curunir' Elvish for `wizard'? I seem to remember that
`nan curunir' was translated as `the wizard's vale'.

--
terry@HomeDepot.COM                      (404) 433-8211x5124 or (404) 941-8304

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Bombadil and the study of history
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 02:41:40 GMT

In article <MVOORHIS.93Jan6142608@granite.WPI.EDU> mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:
>In article <003166j.11.726344809@axe.acadiau.ca> 003166j@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WILLIAM JARVIS) writes:
>> Enjoy the figure of 
>> Bombadil for what he is, a mysterious character that provides an interesting 
>> aside to the journey of the hobbits.
>
>Interesting that a member of a history department preaches ignorance of
>history.  Isn't this what historians spend a great deal of time doing--
>speculating on unclear portions of history, or gathering data to construct
>a more accurate picture of history?  That is what we do here in our
>conversations on Bombadil, or whatever else.  Why can't this data-gathering
>and discussion be applied ot the history and peoples of Middle Earth?
>

	Because it's not "history"--  it's fiction.  Historians (with the
possible exception of a few radical post-structuralists) tend to assume that
there is a real past "that really happened" that we try to reconstruct and
to understand.  Tolkien's Middle-earth is a fictional creation:  none of
the characters in it ever really lived and none of the events in it every 
really happened.  There is no extra-textual reality to Middle-earth or its
characters from which "data" on them can be gathered. 

	A lot of Tolkien fans don't like to be reminded of that. A lot like 
to pretend that Middle-earth was real and that the events described in 
Tolkien's fiction really happened.  Many like to speculate on questions that
are not answered in any of Tolkien's texts (questions such as the identity
of Bombadil, or what happens in the fourth age).  They're entitled to have
fun, of course, but they let's not fool ourselves into believing that their
speculations are anything other than fan-fiction.  Discussing whether 
Bombadil might be a Valar, a Maia, or an Istari is no more "historical"
than is speculating on what sort of sexual position Sam and Rosie might have 
been using the moment Elanor was conceived or whether Farmer Maggot may have 
forced tresspassers in his mushroom patch to engage in bestiality.  (For those 
who are unaware of it, I am alluding to a rather unsavory piece of fan-fiction
that was posted here a couple of days ago.)


	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil)
Originator: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 15:31:57 GMT

Jim Chokey says that he does not believe that hobbits fit in the
Silmarillion.  I'd like to point out that hobbits (halflings) are
mentioned in the Silmarillion, but not in the Quenta Silmarillion.
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: RE: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Date: 6 Jan 93 08:32:39 GMT
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands

Last month in group comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware, there was a discusion
(War) about wether the Amiga or the PC was the best machine. In no time
there were for about 35 reactions on the subject.
I really hope we aren't going to see a WAR like that on the alt.fan.tolkien
group !!! 

___________________________________________________________________________
erikt (erikt@sci.kun.nl)
From: damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 23:34:11 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

In article <1993Jan6.214044@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>Is there any evidence to prove the assertion that they were
>"human-relations," and if so, where does it appear?
>
	_The_Hobbit_? In the beginning when discussing their being close to
men than dwarves or even elves (or were the latter two reversed?)
Admittedly the_Hobbit_ isn't entirely canonical perhaps...speaking of which,
remember the giants in the Misty Mountains?  More random creations of
Morgoth or just an oddity of that novel?

>--
>Charles F. Fitzgerald | '....Life's but a walking shadow,
>Iowa State University | a poor player, that struts, and frets
>cffitzge@iastate.edu  | his hour upon the stage,
>                      | and then is heard from no more....'
>                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.

			-- Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy]
42 | AIXELSYD | Phoenix (Brand shall return to Amber!) | Neo-anarchy now!
Just because it's been done before doesn't mean it's right. | "Nee!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bombadil and the study of history
Date: 7 Jan 93 10:08:11
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<1993Jan7.024140.20638@leland.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU's message of Thu, 7 Jan 93 02:41:40 GMT

> A lot of Tolkien fans don't like to be reminded of that. A lot like 
> to pretend that Middle-earth was real and that the events described in 
> Tolkien's fiction really happened.

So what you're saying basically is that I can't admit to myself that
Tolkien's world is a fiction.  Jeez, how could I have been wrong about the
existence of Middle Earth for so long!  It doesn't really exist?  Eriol
wasn't a real person?

Thanks for educating all of us!  I suppose we should shut down the
newsgroup now and get back to our work, since this group merely encourages
the propigation of childishness, and discusses dreams of dead men.

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
From: jdd@duke.cs.duke.edu (John Dengler)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: test
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:40:43 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.

Please ignore...

-- 
John Dengler, Computer Science Dept., Duke University, Durham, NC 27706 USA
ARPA:	jdd@cs.duke.edu
CSNET:	jdd@duke
UUCP:	decvax!duke!jdd
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The necromancer in The Hobbit
Date: 4 Jan 1993 16:47:41 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com
Keywords: hobbit, necromancer

In article <lewchuk.725917358@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>
>Gandalf, in The Hobbit, says he went to spy on the Necromancer of Dol
>Guldur (southwest of Mirkwood, I believe, south of Beorn's Cabin).
>

Actually, when Gandalf leaves in the Hobbit he leaves to attend the 
council of the wise that drives the Necromancer out of Mirkwood.
He knows, at this point, that the Necromancer is Sauron, having 
discovered it when he infiltrated Dol Guldur some time before the
Hobbit.  It was on that trip that he recovered the key to the
secret door at the Lonely Mountain from Thrain.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: stssram@st.unocal.COM (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Reply-To: Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com
Organization: Unocal Energy Resources Division
	<1993Jan1.064511.27715@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
	<forb0004.180.725935100@student.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 09:42:35 GMT


>>I have noticed that in Tolkien's glossary of the elven language (which occurs
>>in the Silmarillion, as well as various further works by other authors), the
>>words for "ear" and "leaf" are closely related in Elven, which would suggest
>>that they probably had something of a leaf-shaped ear.

> Which leaf shape? 

Probably the shape of the leaves on one of the Two Trees. :-)

--
Bob Myers                              Unocal Energy Resources Division
Internet: Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com      Exploration and Seismic Technology
Phone: [714] 693-6951                  P. O. Box 68076
                                       Anaheim, California 92817-8076
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Subject:  Re: Breeding Dragons (was Re: Bombadil)
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 08:58:34 GMT

Dustin Laurence writes,

>First of all, I don't see any basis for orcish free will except guesswork.
>Treebeard does not list them among the "free" peoples; what he meant by
>free peoples is also a matter of conjecture, but I personally believe that
>it implies moral freedom.  Thus, I would say that orcs do not have moral
>free will.  I don't remember any other mention of "free" vs. unfree peoples
>that would clarify, but contrast the treatment of gollum and orcs.  Gollum
>is in some sense "evil", but still retains moral free will --as did Saruman.
>Orcs, OTOH, do not seem to.  The moral choice was made long ago, when some
>elves listened to Melkor's lies.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I you mean that the first Orc's were created when the Noldor left Valinor
or that the Elves were `lured' (I hope I spelled this right) to Melkor (and by
Melkor), I don't agree with you. If you meant something else ignore this
comment. 
In the Silmarillion I found that when the Elves were just awaken (at Cuivienen), they were sometimes `visited' by Melkor who `kidnapped' some of them.
Melkor corrupted them and turned them into Orc's.

______________________________________________________________________________
Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 21:35:05 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.184446.21908@mcs.kent.edu> mcconnel@mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell) writes:

> 
>It is interesting that the first time that I find that I agree with the gist of 
>one of Mr. Chokey's arguments is also the first one, as far as I can remember, 
>that he also makes a real informational blunder.  Or have I totally missed the
>episodes where Tom Bombadil shows up in the Hobbit?
>


	I didn't say Bombadil appeared in the Hobbit!!  I said Bombadil _would_
fit easily into the textual world in which the Hobbit is set (whereas he fits
a bit uneasily into the textual world of LOTR, and not at all into that of the
Silmarillion.)

	Basically, when Tolkien started writing LOTR (which was originally
going to be just another children's book like the Hobbit) he set the sequel in
the same textual world as the Hobbit, a world in which a character as odd as
Bombadil _would_ not seem anomalous or out of place.  During the process of 
writing the first half of FotR, however, he found himself drifting more and
more into the "world" of the Silmarillion, a world in which creatures like
Bombadil, Trolls, (and even hobbits, I would contend) don't really fit.  Still,
the fact of the matter was that LOTR was supposed to be a Hobbit sequel, and he
could not shift utterly and completely into the textual world of the 
Silmarillion. Consequently, LOTR is set in a textual world that is a mixture 
of both the Silmarillion world and the Hobbit world and attempts to synthesize
them.  Tolkien's attempt at synthesis of these two very different textual 
"worlds" is remarkably sucessful, IMHO, but inevitably results in the
creation of tensions within LOTR between the two different "worlds."  For
the most part, these tensions are fairly subdued as long as one does not 
step too far outside of LOTR.  It is only when one starts reading LOTR 
and the Hobbit or LOTR and the Silmarillion (or all three of them together)
with the expectation that they should all take place in the same textual world
that these tensions become noticeable and produce anomalies like Beorn, 
Bombadil, etc.

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien