From: krzystek@milton.u.washington.edu (Jerzy Krzystek)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Date: 14 Aug 92 11:45:04 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle


In article <...>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes...

>I guess I've stepped on your toes. Let me assure you, it was not
>deliberate. You seem to think that I've charged the Balkans with some kind
>of monopoly on evil, though nothing in my post makes this claim. 

Well, you did not, the other guy certainly did step on somebody else's toes
with his arrogant remark.

I may have reacted too strongly, sorry for that. However, I share the opinion of
Krzysztof Kniaz that too often Eastern Europe is singled out for its
intolerance in 20th century as if:

- the phenomenon was very specific to it, and did not appear elsewhere;
- it had a particularly long tradition.

You yourself in your first posting mentioned a 'long tradition' of racial and
ethnic hatred, later made more accurate to the years 1918-1939 which is not
that long compared to more than 1,000 years of the region's history.

When I hear accusations of racial and ethnic intolerance in Eastern Europe, and
specifically of the 'traditional Eastern-European anti-semitism' as being
specific and endemic for this region of the world, I do not deny it. It was 
very true, and unfortunately still is in some parts. However, such accusations 
when spoken by people coming from Western European culture sound a little, 
well, hypocritical to me. That's why I asked for a list of mass expulsion of 
Jews from Western Europe, and got it, albeit incomplete:

England expulsed all its Jews in 13th century under one of the Edwards (forgot
which one).

France expulsed all its Jews in 14th century under Philippe le Beau.

Portugal expulsed all its Jews in 15th century.

Spain expulsed all its Jews (unless they converted) in 1492.

Germany did not have one mass expulsion, since the Holy Empire was not
centrally governed, but there was a whole series of smaller-scale expulsions
from particular cities and duchies going well into 16th century, as far as I
remember.

None of these countries allowed the Jews to come back until modern times
(generally speaking, they varied from one country to another), and then only on
one-by-one basis.

Where did all these people go? There were only two countries at the time which
accepted the refugees: the Ottoman Empire and the Polish/Lithuanian Kingdom.
The first accepted mostly the Sefardi, the other - the Ashkenazi.

The Jews lived there until 20th century, perhaps not enjoying all the rights,
and leading generally hard life, but yet at least tolerated. The real 
problems there started with the advent of modern nationalism, but this is 
another story and a relatively new one.

>certain groups in Eastern Europe cooperated with the Nazis; certain groups
>staged massacres of their own. If you deny this, I have no interest in
>arguing about it with you. On the other hand, if you have interesting
>information to add to our discussion of this subject, I'm always ready to
>learn.

I will certainly not deny the facts you are mentioning, they are
well-documented, some of them may be found in Ken McVay's Holocaust Almanac,
which I truly appreciate. I will not mutluate (another generic form?) our 
discussion.

You seem, however, to mix up two different periods (a lot of people do that):
before 1939 and after 1939, as if nothing happened that year. Although the
pre-war antisemitism could be the fertile ground for the behavior of some parts
of populations towards the Jews during the war, in my opinion most of this
behavior was purely opportunistic. The Nazis showed the way, and by a general
brutalization of the life in the region incredibly lowered the price of 
a human life. We have seen similar behavior in other parts of the world: 
two (or more) communities seem to live peacefully for centuries and then when 
there is some trigger (usually a war) they jump to each other's throats. 

>I'm beginning to think that nobody in this newsgroup can discuss anything
>without getting hot under the collar about it.

Well, I am giving at least a try :-) however, in such discussions one has to be
particularly wary of generalizations since they can hurt a lot of people's
feelings. It is certainly better to quote facts rather than personal opinions,
and so I promise next time, if there is a next time. 

Jurek Krzystek
  
Newsgroups: soc.history