From: yzarn@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com (Philip Yzarn de Louraille)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.french
Subject: Re: Guns, Motorcycles, and Internet Access in Paris
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:41:44 GMT
Organization: Chevron Oil Field Research, La Habra, CA.

In article <1992Aug22.200627.15021@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>In article <6322@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com> 
>yzarn@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com (Philip Yzarn de Louraille) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Aug22.152202.15017@husc3.harvard.edu>
>>zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>
>>... deleted stuff ...
>
>PYL:
>>>polite inquiry on s.c.f.  Unfortunately, I haven't counted on the small but
>>>vociferous presence of hypocritical, egocentric, condescending chauvinists
>>>like you and Luc Maillet, the sort that confuse the crack of their ass with
>>>the axis of the universe, just as they habitually confuse the incoherent
>>>emissions of their gob with the _vox populi, vox Dei_, and their sincere,
>>>ill-considered philistinism -- with the lofty Platonic ideal of morality,
>>>the sort that readily grant themselves an unlimited license to prejudge and
>>>insult their interlocutor, as well as to bashfully take umbrage at the
>>>reciprocal deployment of strong language in their own direction.  Still,
>>>you must pardon me for clinging to my naive conviction that the spectrum of
>>>French political opinion is not exhausted by your effete and bombastic
>>>sort; that there yet remain in France a few heirs of Baudelaire, Vall\`es,
>>>Lautr\'eamont, Jarry, Apollinaire, Breton, and Char, who are not liable to
>>>faint when confronted with strong language, nor to run away from the sight
>>>of naked weapons.  As for the rest, you will understand my not finding them
>>>too interesting, and consequently -- not paying too much attention to their
>>>numerous opinions.
>>>
>>>mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
>>>"Un de mes plus grands plaisirs est de jurer Dieu quand je bande."
>
>PYL:
>>Say, Michael (or is it mikhail?),
>
>Either way, as you wish.
>
>PYL:
>>For your information, I did post last sunday a message which summed my
>>knowledge of french laws and gun ownerships. When I lived in France, I
>>owned several handguns (Smith&Wesson, 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum, in 6" and 8"
>>and 3/8 barrel length). I had these legally and could carry them to and
>>from the shooting range (dismantled, of course, with some parts in the
>>trunk and other parts in the glove compartment).
>>
>>As you are making a pest of yourself, I am not going to repost my original
>>post (what the hell happened to it? I myself never saw it being
>>posted....)
>
>Well, your post never made it out here either.  But please tell me -- how
>do you expect one to react to the sort of gratuitous, unprovoked insults
>that have been meted out to me in the past week?  Would you have liked me
>better, had I swallowed my dignity and beat a hasty retreat?  Or should I
>have grovelled before the mighty pronouncements of your compatriots,
>abjectly deferring to their wishes concerning the disposition of myself and
>my weapons?  Sorry, but where I come from, one gives exactly as much
>courtesy as one gets.

Some people might have gathered that the request was unwelcomed and would
have accepted that fact. No one is obliged to answer you, you know.
>
>PYL:
>>If you really want to get to the bottom of french laws concerning
>>foreigners importing (or carrying) weapons to France, please refer to your
>>nearest french consulate. Either that or bring your "tools" to France and
>>tell the custom agents when they ask you if you have something to declare
>>that you are in possession of several weapons and see them getting in
>>action. You will then learn of these laws right away.
>
>I *have* referred to my nearest French consulate, which wasn't terribly
>helpful.  My purpose here consisted in eliciting information of private
>experience of French shooting enthusiasts, including, but not limited to,
>suggestions on how to deal with the local regulations in a relatively
>painless fashion.  This sort of information just wouldn't be forthcoming
>through the official channels.  Perhaps you might be able to relate to my
>predicament, if you tried (for all I know, you already have) asking the US
>Immigration and Naturalization service about the best ways for you to get a
>US green card.

Got that a long time ago, and the US citizenship 2 years ago.
I'm curious to see why the consulate gave you a hard time. Hmmmm. Maybe
they don't want you to bring weapons to France....?

>
>PYL:
>>I know it is really hard for you to understand that, but it is not because
>>something is constitutionally "right" in the US that that makes that law
>>"right" (in the US and other parts of the world.)
>
>Nonsense.  I have never pronounced that French laws were not "right"; my
>sole concern is in finding a way to deal with them so as to get as many of
>my wishes satisfied, as I possibly can.

I got misunderstood. I was refering to the law which allows almost
everyone the right to arm themselves (in the US, that is.) But why don't
we drop that subject.
>
>PYL:
>>Your last sentence above, when you mention that you do not pay much
>>attention to numerous opinions that you do not find "interesting" is at
>>the root of your problems. You are a gun fanatic, and fanatics do not
>>reason well because they are unable to pay attention to other people
>>differing opinions. Fanatics cannot make "reasonnable" judgements because
>>they have a vision which is too narrow. It is a self-imposed impairment.
>
>More nonsense.  The sort of opinions I dismiss are the hostile ones, which
>I have made abundantly clear in my own retaliatory message above.
>Moreover, if you have any supporting evidence for pronouncing me a "gun
>fanatic", whatever you might mean by that, please let me see it.  Hint:
>nowhere have I made any allusion to any sort of right or principle which
>would allow me to place myself above the law, nor have I dismissed or
>otherwise failed to address any reasonable expression of opposing views.
>
I was under the impression, as I scanned past all the followups that your
request generated thru this newsgroup (and thanks to your "cross-posting")
that you were the author of many of those. Maybe I am wrong. For instance,
there was one guy, who saw one "rambo" too many who claimed to be able to
stop a tank division by shooting all the tank commanders. Well, then,
Michael, if you were not the authors of these posts, then I agree that my
labelling you of a gun fanatic does not apply.

>PYL:
>>You may have noticed that I eliminated the "talk.guns.?" that you had
>>redirected these posts to. What is the matter, Michael? Can't you debate by
>>yourself? Or do you need the help of others?
>
>It is my custom to cross-post to relevant groups.  However, since your
>disagreement is stated with a modicum of good manners (the penis joke and
>jumping to conclusions notwithstanding), I'll be happy to respect your
>wishes in the present case.  Whatever you wish to debate in a calm,
>reasoned manner, will be addressed likewise.
>

Well, then since we agree to treat each other gentleman like, I will
append at the end of this diatribe my original post which I happened to
find in the news spool directory a full ten minutes before the group was
expired.


Thar it is:
>>>(i)	French legislation pertaining firearms importation, ownership,
>>>possession, and carrying, especially by foreign nationals.

I do not know if this is true for non-french, but for a frog to be able to
*buy* a handgun, he/she must first be part of a gun club for at least 6
months (I think). After that period of time *and* after having shown up to
the shooting range on a weekly basis, the club president signs a paper
saying that you are a good person, then you must obtain an authorization
from the prefecture, (and you have to say *what* gun you want, like model,
brand, etc...), and then you can buy the "tool". You can only buy so many
cartridges (forgot how many..) but not too many, like two boxes at a time
(100 rounds).
Then you can only be in possession of the gun to and from the shooting
range. The gun must be disassembled in such a way
-revolver: the cylinder and the body must be separated (if it is possible)
with the cylinder in the car (glove compartment) the body *and* cartridges
in the trunk.
-pistol: the clip (unloaded, of course) in the glove compartment, the rest
of the gun is disassembled, separated from the cartridges and in the
trunk.

Anyways, that covers most of what I remember from over 18 years ago when I
was 18 and leaving in France.

Rules may have changed since. Don't know. Also, I may have forgotten some
but the above is quite correct for these times in spirit, at least.

How does that applies for non-froggies: I would assume that you cannot
bring your guns (shotguns and hunting rifles excepted) in France.
Oh, by the way, in France, AR-15 like weapons, are not considered to be
hunting weapons.... so if this is what you want to bring in France, forget
it.
Further more, even though you can buy AR-15 like weapon in France (with
considerable difficulty, I might add), modifying it in any way, shape or
form, and trying to make it a fully automated weapon (ala M-16) is
absolutely forbidden and punishable by prison terms. No excuses allowed.
No Oliver North/Ronald Reagan excuses accepted: "I forgot", "I do not
remember", "I was doing it for the good of the country, don't you know", or
even a plain "I did not know".

French laws can be so hostile, you know!

Good day.
-- 
  Philip Yzarn de Louraille                 Internet: yzarn@chevron.com
  Research Support Division                 Unix & Open Systems
  Chevron Information & Technology Co.      Tel: (310) 694-9232
  P.O. Box 446, La Habra, CA 90633-0446     Fax: (310) 694-7709