HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Nov 3rd NOVA on pyramids
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:52:08 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <1992Nov12.182544.5475@spectrum.xerox.com> chris@eso.mc.xerox.com writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.184249.6310@digi.lonestar.org> gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
>>found out the alignment had gotten off?  My suspicion is that given the
>>most modern equipment and technology and unlimited amounts of money we still
>>couldn't rebuild the Great Pyramid.  The blocks wouldn't match and the
>>interior passages wouldn't link up.  It would be a fiasco, or rather it
>>would be a patchwork of countless repairs and cosmetic coverups of 
>>construction blunders.
>
>Oh come off it.  If I can singlehandedly lay out 100 feet of 20' wide 
>driveway (plus a perpendicular turnaround), with all corners at 90 
>degrees, using nothing but a bunch of pointy sticks and two strings 
>of known length (ok, I had a hammer, too), in about 60 minutes, it 
>would be a good bet that a team of Egyptians could have done the same.  Maybe 
>they could have even extended the techniques to larger projects.
>
>The Eisenhower Tunnel on I-70 in Colorado was built using the most modern 
>equipment and technology.  It's about 1 1/2 miles long, and the `interior 
>passages` were off by just fractions of an inch in th middle.
>
>							Chris

This is an important but exhausting point of discussion.  Its
theoretical resolution would take considerable time, and its
practical resolution probably won't happen. Let us agree to
disagree.  The main question remains a matter of legitimate
contraversy, how the originals were made without our modern
technology.  There is a variety of opinion on that too. Another
point of controversy was what they were built for.  More
disagreement.

Cordially,
Gerry Palo (73237.2006@cis)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: chris@xerox.com (Chris Heiny 73186 - SETA)
Subject: Re: The Great Pyramid of Giza
Reply-To: chris@xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:38:27 GMT

In response to Zerxes M. Bhagalia (v064lnev@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu):

"Lets consider the facts, shall we"

Yes, let's.  Certainly your posting contains very few, if any, of them.

"The pyramid's now almost totally despoiled original outer casing of polished
limestone (all twenty-one acres of it) was levelled and honed to the standard
of accuracy normal in modern optical work."

How do we know this if almost all of the casing is now missing?

"As a geodetic marker and an orbital
observatory, the Great Pyramid is so perfectly oriented with the cardinal
directions that modern compasses are adjusted to it"

Any one with some wooden stakes, some string, and a reasonable idea of
the location of the pole star could do the same.

"Using the Sacred Cubit, nearly every one of the
Pyramid's basic external and internal measurements can be expressed as a
function of the quantity pi and 365.242.  The quantity pi, by the way, had
supposedly not been discovered yet, and 365.242 is the number of days in the
solar tropical year"

If you choose an arbitrary unit, you can measure anything so it comes out
as a function of pi and 365.242.  You could define a Sacred Stadia so that
an ancient hippodrome is exactly pi stadia around if you wanted.  This proves
nothing.

Pi, by the way, had been discovered.  The Egyptians, being tidy and abhorring
fractions, generally treated it as 3, although they did have means of
approximating it when absolutely necessary.

"Next, a fine cement was then run into these joints
so expertly as to give an even coverage of areas as big as five feet by seven"

Do any of you people ever consider the idea of placing the cement before setting
the blocks?

"And lastly, though archeologists all consider the pyramid
to be a tomb, not one corpse has ever been found within the structure, nor is
there any evidence to indicate that their ever were"

Has anyone ever found a flying saucer in one?

							Chris




Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: alt.egypt??
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:58:05 GMT
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

Did anything come of alt.egypt or whatever it was supposed to be called?

I believe they were trying to set up a newsgroup reference to ancient egypt.
And exclusively for those a.e. buffs.

Eshin-Fun
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Dead Sea Scrolls again
Date: 20 Nov 1992 00:56:35 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <27698@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'Dell) writes:
>Would also appreciate your summarizing efforts on this subject--
>
>Bern O'Dell--odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'Dell)

OK, this makes five. I'll try to do it this weekend.




Jack F. Love
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Roman Treasure Found
Date: 20 Nov 92 09:13:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov20.091358.27031
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)


  I just saw a news report on the find!  It was a brief clip, but it included
  many diverse pictures.  Among the artifacts are thousands of gold and silver
  coins, a little silver tiger, gold necklaces (including one of a type never
  seen before in Britain), gold bracelets, dozens of beautifully engraved
  spoons, and several more tables full of tantalizing trinkets.  It has already
  been dubbed the largest find of its kind in Britain (!!!) and has been put
  on display in a British Museum (the name of which escapes me -- It's big,
  though).  The condition of the artifacts is incredible, if the samples
  shown in close-up are an indicator of overall quality.  The pail full of
  gold and silver coins is quite a sight, too, especially given their con-
  dition.

  Would that we could all be as lucky as the gentleman who found this trove.
  His "reward" (finder's fee?) is potentially greater than a million, and he
  found the hammer he started out looking for, too!

  Apologies for the "rough-shod" article, but I wanted to get the info from
  the report out as fast as possible.  Anyone in England care to find out
  where this stuff is being shown, see it and write up a report?  I guarantee
  you a rapt audience!
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 - Nero couldn't've fiddled while Rome burned; Fiddles had yet to be invented -
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: rspear@sookit.jpl.nasa.gov (Richard Spear)
Subject: Re: Roman Treasure Found
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:38:09 GMT

just to keepit accurate...he was looking for a friend's hammer, and he 
will receive in excess of 1 million dollars.

--
richard
rspear@sookit.jpl.nasa.gov
all disclaimers apply
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: The Great Pyramid of Giza
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 00:36:27 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <BxzKzG.2EI@acsu.buffalo.edu> v064lnev@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Avatar) writes:


>>	"The natural tendency of a traditionally trained archeologist is to fit
>>his finds into the fashionable preconcieved matrix of ideas regarding the
shape
>>of prehistory that it is a long, slow, upward gradient leading inexorably from
>>primitive man to the summit of modern society's achievements.  It is his very
>>ability to do so that has gained him his qualifications as an archeologist. 

Straw man. This "tradition" has been out of vogue for some time. It is
as faulty as thinking of biological evolution as a ladder rather than a tree.


>>Consequently, had earlier civilizations left behind aircraft runways, say,
then
>>it is likely that they would be classified as 'ritual causeways'; an
>>earth-and-stone-built chamber for screening off radioactive waste or machinery
>>would of course take on an unintended role as a 'tomb'; ... [elision
>>moved below] and
>>skyward-facing navigational markings for airships would become 'magic designs
>>for the appeasement of the gods'." -unknown author

Since we know of no such ancient structures, your examples are useless
fiction.
If these are ancient runways, why aren't they straight or flat? Where 
is the pavement? Why would a technology capable of starflight even need
runways, or "navigational markers" useable only in daylight and
in clear weather? If these are ancient radioactive waste repositories,
where is the waste? Where is the residual radiation? In other words,
where is the remarkable evidence to support your (implied) remarkable 
claims? And note the pattern of your author's interpretations of these
structures: they make sense only in terms of present-day technology, 
which has only just been invented by a particular culture and which will 
quickly become antique. Your anonymous author is guilty of more 
ethnocentricism and lack of imagination than any "traditional archeologist".


>>an astronomical
>>observatory-cum-computer would immediately start a new life as a temple;

The observatories-cum-computers have been recognized as such. So much for
the closed-mindedness of traditional archeologists.
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Enough cosmic pyramid garbage
From: homolovi@violet.ccit.arizona.edu
Date: 21 Nov 92 15:50:28 MST
Distribution: world,local
Keywords: Dumb-Theory
Summary: lets get this over with
Nntp-Posting-User: homolovi

    Thanks to everbody who trashed those silly pyramid theories.  Question:
Why is it so hard for people to belive that peoples in the past worked very
hard and very also very skilled?  Any form of prehistoric public architexture
just makes people go Nuts.  Why do people make these gigantic objects...Because
public architecture is something humans like to do, Think about the Washington
monument.  Until there is some vastly incredible discovery to the contrary, The
standard studies and theories on public architecture will do quite well.

Now can we get on to something more interesting...
Any post-processualists out there?

Doug Gann
Homolovi Research Program
Arizona State Museum.

The opinons expressed here are not nessessarily those of my employers;
However in this case they are!
From: jfb@draco.macsch.com (John Baskette)
Subject: Re: Religion & Physics Don't Mix
Organization: MacNeal-Schwendler Corp.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 18:15:19 GMT

Subject: Re: Religion & Physics Don't Mix

In article <1ei90dINNhgs@chnews.intel.com> bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) writes:
>In article <1ei39gINNf3o@chnews.intel.com> bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) writes:
>>won't last a tenth of the 7000 years the Great Pyramid's
>>owned the planet.
>
>Uh-oh.  7000?  I want to say 4500, but that's the
>Iceman's date.
>
>Nuts.  Anyone remember when the GP was completed?

The Great Pyramid was completed about 2650 B.C. by the Phaoroah
Cheops (aka Khufu) in the 4th dynasty of the Old Kingdom.

Your 4500 number is pretty much on the money.

John
From: mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Druid Prince
Date: 15 Nov 92 16:19:31 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

In article <zebee.721776612@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> Zebee Johnstone writes:
>
>What I'm not sure of is whether the callouses would have survived on the 
>skin, and be recognisable as such.
>
Good point, although the body *was* remarkably preserved.  I would think that
callosities are no more nor less susceptible to attack by the bog medium than 
normal skin.  Confirmation, anyone?  Contrary to the majority of threads, this
*is* sci.archaeology.

>[snip]
>
>I think the problem is that we don't know enough about the 
>society.  They left no records, and the accounts we have are not
>accurate.
>
Hold that thought.  Note that the Druid hypothesis rests on two assumptions:
1) Druids led scarless lives
2) Noone else did
Our discussion so far has centred around the attack and defence of 2), but
how reasonable is 1)?

>The theory is consistent with current knowledge, and thus deserves
>to be treated with reasonable respect until disproved.  It hasn't 
>been conclusively proved, but it hasn't been refuted either.
>
Absence of evidence may or may not be evidence of absence, but it's 
certainly not evidence of anything else.  Put it this way.  R & R place
heavy emphasis on the worship of Tauros Trigaranus, whose symbols include
a bull and three cranes.  It so happens (this is true) that in the City
of London three are three narrow alleys leading down to the Thames called
(in order from West to East) Bull Wharf, Three Cranes Wharf and Trig Lane.

Spooky, eh?  Suppose I claimed that there was a temple of Tauros Trigaranus
on that site, and that a major objective of the Boudiccan uprising was to 
'take' the temple or its relics from Roman defilers?  Would my 'theory' be
entitled to respect until disproved?   No more than any other wild conjecture.

Remember that the callouses issue is not the only leap of fancy Ross and
Robins make.  Aside from the fox-fur armband, there is the entire Boudiccan
connection, which rests on the uncertainty in dating (about a century, if I
remember right) bracketing AD61.


-- 
 ',' ' ',','  |                                                  |  ',' ' ',','
   ', ,','    |       Del Cotter       mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk      |    ', ,','  
     ','      |                                                  |      ','
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: The Great Pyramid of Giza
Date: 22 Nov 1992 21:31:16 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

In Sunday's San Francisco Examiner there's an article which may shed a
small bit of lite on this subject.  It's on page B-8 & titled, "Study
of skeletons reveals harsh life of poor in Egypt", by Mimi Mann.  The
subjects are workers of the Old Kingdom from the Giza area.  I don't
have time to type the article in, but as it came from AP it may also
appear in other papers around North America.

"'Their spines were bent from carrying heavy loads,' [Azza El-Din] said.
'There's bone inflammation, causing discomfort."

"Similar stress is visible in the bones of workers' wives & children
but is absent from the skeletons of officials & their families...."

Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: ckp2n@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Christina Powell)
Subject: Re: Roman Treasure Found
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 15:53:36 GMT

rivero  writes:
> In article <1992Nov20.091358.27031@reed.edu> Iain Odlin, odlin@reed.edu writes:
> >  Would that we could all be as lucky as the gentleman who found this trove.
> >  His "reward" (finder's fee?) is potentially greater than a million, and he
> >  found the hammer he started out looking for, too!
> 
> I dont know of British laws, but I suposse that if the archeological
> patrimony is protected, then to look for "treasures" will be illegal.
> 
> Then, this "clandestino" need some argument to explain what was he 
> doing with a detector. It seems obvious when you have heard some
> histories on archeological research. 
> This finding could  result in a hard hit for Britain archeological areas. 
> I would know how have detectors selling increased this week.

What he was doing (someone kindly e-mailed me an article on this)
was looking for a hammer he had lost in his garden.  Innocent
enough.  

And the state (or possibly the Queen) gets it all.
From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Nov 3rd NOVA on pyramids
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:28:14 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

John Baskette writes

	[Extended commentary on my posting deleted. My contention being on the
         side that the pyramids couldn't be built today and that they were not
         tombs]

Interesting observations.  I will try to find the reference about the
mummyless pyramid.  It was not from a pseudo-science publication  (which
I don't read) but, as I recall, caused some stir and not a little disappointment
in the archaeological community.  The question is, did that community draw the
right conclusions from it or just put it on the shelf as an anomoly?
It was within the last twenty years or so.

As for the purpose of the pyramids, the archaeological establishment (pardon
the implied flame) has long held to the tomb theory, even though there is
little evidence to support it, quite apart from the absence of a single
mummy or traces of one ever found in a pyramid.  It has been some years
since I followed this, but there have been more than one scholarly paper
written pointing out the problems.  I guess the egyptologists feel they
have other things to do.  These things often happen in the development of
scholarly research.  At some point the critical point becomes central and
many theories and (often) careers are upset in the process.  This whole
whole debate begs the question that school egyptology already believes it
has answered.

I recall one source that offers a pretty sound summary of the archaeological 
and Egyptological case against the pyramids-as-tombs idea and for the purpose
I mentioned.  Unfortunately it is in German and a little too expensive for me.
I heard the lectures on which it was based over fifteen years ago in Stuttgart.
It is "Der Mensch und Sein Tempel", by Frank Teichmann.  I think the publisher
is either Verlag Urachhaus or Verlag Freies Geistesleben in Stuttgart. I think
it is in print.

In closing, the implications of what I am driving at may well be indicitave
of something that smells like pseudo-science, in that they point to different
conditions of both human consciousness and (possibly) the natural order in
relatively recent, i.e. historical, times.  For a much more elevated discussion
of the possibilities than pyramidologists and various new age airy-fairyness,
you might have a look at Owen Barfield's "Saving the Appearances". Don't know
if it is in print, but it is cheap enough that I could even loan you my copy.


Cordially,
Gerry Palo (73237.2006@cis)
From: arkdr@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Dave Rindos)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Anthropology/Archaeology Gopher server
Date: 20 Nov 1992 13:22:07 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au

I am sure that gopher will be making a major contribution to our field.
Right now, we have a PRELIMINARY EXPERIMENTAL data base of names and
addresses of anthropologists/archaeologists on the gopher here at uniwa.

We would like your response to how it works (realizing that we are
basically testing the SYSTEM at this point).  It permits a search of the
database by keywords (name, institution, place, etc).

Please reply to me with comments/problems.  I hope that we will be able
to make a formal announcement, as well as send out a call for
submissions to the PhoneBook file sometime in the near future.

Dave Rindos
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: lucy@apache.dtcc.edu (Lucy Stiffler)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Grad Schools
Date: 16 Nov 1992 18:42:04 -0500
Organization: Delaware Technical & Community College
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: apache.dtcc.edu

I would like to request that anyone having information on graduate
programs in archaeology, particularly first hand info, please advise me
regarding programs in Mesoamerican archaeology.  My interests include, but
are not limited to: epigraphy, iconography, the pristine state and early
trade.  Any information you have to share will be appreciated!  Thank-you.
  
Lucy (I hate signature files.)
From: boschung@methp1.epfl.ch (Jacques Boschung)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Concept of "patricians" in the early Empire...
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:09:36 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne

Reading a biography on the Roman Emperor Marcus-Aurelius, I was a bit
surprised to see that the author referred him as a "patrician" plenty of times
not in a general sense but in the Roman acceptation of the word. I really do
not understand this label :

	- first, M-A was a nativ of Spain

	- second, the concept of "patrician" so far I know has practically no
	  more substance at that time. At the end of the Republic they were 
	  as many members of the nobilitas coming from the Plebeians as from
	  the Patricians. In the Empire with the hierarchie of the society by
	  the  means of the census new castes were created but no more place,
	  I think for this old title.

I have to say that the writer, Pierre Grimal, is a well-known and serious 
specialist in that area (anyway for people speaking french) so this can't be
a mistake.

Is anybody able to explain me this mystery ?

	JB
From: v064lnev@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Avatar)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: The Great Pyramid of Giza
Date: 19 Nov 92 23:24:00 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <Bxyq15.6zL@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v064lnev@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Avatar) writes...
>	"The natural tendency of a traditionally trained archeologist is to fit
>his finds into the fashionable preconcieved matrix of ideas regarding the shape
>of prehistory that it is a long, slow, upward gradient leading inexorably from
>primitive man to the summit of modern society's achievements.  It is his very
>ability to do so that has gained him his qualifications as an archeologist. 
>Consequently, had earlier civilizations left behind aircraft runways, say, then
>it is likely that they would be classified as 'ritual causeways'; an
>earth-and-stone-built chamber for screening off radioactive waste or machinery
>would of course take on an unintended role as a 'tomb'; an astronomical
>observatory-cum-computer would immediately start a new life as a temple; and
>skyward-facing navigational markings for airships would become 'magic designs
>for the appeasement of the gods'." -unknown author

	Still, it seems no one would like to address the above passage.  Does
anyone have any thoughts about this?
                                       .
                                     .'|`.                                      
___________________________________.'-{*}-`.____________________________________
Zerxes M. Bhagalia                '----|----` INT: v064lnev@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
State University of New York   .---------------.    bhaga-z@acsu.buffalo.edu
  at Buffalo                 .'                 `.  News Director, WFFT 104.9 FM
Political Science          .'                     `. Justice, SA Judiciary (SWJ)
Computer Science         .'________MDCCLXXVI________`. Computer Consultant (UCS)
---------------------N O V U S   O R D O   S E C L O R U M----------------------