HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu (John Kawakami)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Some clarification
Date: 13 Sep 92 12:07:39 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility


As far as my "fool" comment, what I mean is that every person is affected
by others.  To not acknowledge this fact is foolish.  You can disagree with
what others may say about you or do to you, but you cannot say that
it has no effect.

I got the impression that tse was in some kind of denial about the entire
Asian American "thing" since he seemed somewhat baffled by it.  I sensed
that the post may have been rhetorical, but I decided to flame anyway.
I seized on the comment "so sad it is to be defined by what others think"
because I don't think it's a sad thing, but a very neutral and natural
thing to be defined by what others think.  (please correct me if I have
misquoted.)


I believe the more "Asian American" issue at hand would be tse's question
of what constitutes Asian American culture.  The question of how it can
be defined and classified.  The inital problem is finding a culture which
encompasses all Asian groups.  This is a problem which has become acute
only recently.  And I don't mean something as simplistic as Koreans not
liking Japanese.  What I mean is that zero or first generation immigrants
and even some 1/2 generaion immigrants cannot really understand the psycho-
logical issues of racism which a third generation person went through.

I get the feeling that twenty years ago, the division issue was less sig-
nificant.  After all, everyone was getting over self-hate and embarrassment
over their immigrant parents or grandparents.  Asians were coming out of
the closet and being Asian, and defiantly so.  Not ironically, some of the
most defiant were those who had become the most alientated from their back-
ground and forgotten or not known the language, the traditions, and the
old family names.

Now, all the older Japanese Americans and Chinese Americans who were doing
all that soul searching in the 70's have dealt with their psyches on the
whole identity thing.  The current era looks like a replay of the whole
identity thing, but this time the players are Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese,
and Pilipino.

The common thread is the search for identity against the tide of a fading
ethnic history and the continual assaults of racism.  The common thread
is the legacy of racism in the US, which focuses on race generally,
not on ethnicity.
-- 
John Kawakami                  kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu
                               ucbvax!ocf.berkeley.edu!kawakami
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.asean,soc.culture.korean
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Freedom of Speech
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 23:56:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.153850.1194@nuscc.nus.sg> eng20009@nusunix3.nus.sg
(TAN GIM WEE) writes:
>[nonsense deleted to save bandwidth]
>'Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but pay no notice to the
>beam in your own eye'?

Americans (and Asian-Americans) have paid attention to the speck in
my sister's eye.  In America, there is no shortage of self-criticism.

By contrast, there has been little attention paid to the victims
of Chinese-cu brutality.  We hear all manner of condemnation about
how Germany seized neighboring nations in WWII, about how Japan
seized Korea more than 50 years ago, about how Iraq gassed the Kurds,
etc.  However, we hear almost nothing about how the Chinese-cu massacred
the Tibetans, the Taiwanese-ge, etc.

Who speaks for the victims of Chinese-cu brutality?  Who speaks for
the female infants strangled by their own Chinese-cu parents?  Who
speaks for them?

Not the Chinese-cu.  They are strangely silent except when
"Nanjing" day comes around; on that day, they can spout numbers
left and right about how many victims the Japanese maimed.

>...
>we [Chinese] don't say much
>about Tibet.

Yes.  That's right.

We Americans (and Asian-Americans) should support the RimPac92 military
exercises, that can serve as the basis of a strong alliance to defend
Asia from the military aggression of the Chinese-cu.  We must say
"NO!" to the slaughter of men, women, and children by the Chinese-cu.
We must show the Chinese-cu the _F.I.S.T._ of our resolve.

We supported NATO in its defense of Europe against the former Soviet Union.
We should do no less for East Asia, defending it from the Chinese-cu.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: shin@duck.ee.udel.edu (Jeong-Gyun Shin)
Subject: Re: "Chinese-Americans..."
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:22:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.020612.23547@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>Unlike Chinese-cu people, I certainly wouldn't make speculative personal
>attacks.  Unless Mr. Wang wishes to make his position public, I
 ^^
 ||

Of course D.Joe doesn't do that.  D.Joe only does spread lies
about other person in the net.

>certainly won't try to pin anything on him, generally speaking.
>
>After all, I'm not Chinese-cu.

Look at you D.Joe in the mirror sometime.
From: edcheng@terapin.com (Edmund Cheng)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: "Chinese-Americans..."
Date: 7 Sep 92 01:25:00 PST
Organization: BBS

        Hello...excuse me, but I'm new at this....but.... I have read a few
posts by different people about themselves or others and them being
"Chinese-American" or "Chinese" or whatever.  I have asked myself many
questions about this.  I am an American born Chinese, but I feel no less
Chinese than a person from the mainland.  But I am American too, I live an
american life.  So I cannot exclude one culture or the other.  This all may
sound totally ignorant to you all, but keep in mind I'm a Junior in High
School.  
        I know many Chinese-Americans... Some which have no Chinese "culture"
in them.  The only thing that distinguishes them from any caucasian is their
last names and their faces.  This scares me.  I don't want to lose my
"identity", my language..I want to be Chinese.  But in the past few months I
have talked to other people and been to many places.  I used to consider myself
Chinese period.  But I have learned that the American Culture is a big
part of my life.  And I'm proud of it too.  So I don't think anyone that is
Asian and living in the US can exclude either of their heritages.  I am just
Chinese-American.......
                        -Zheng Yip Wing
From: popat@image.mit.edu (Kris Popat)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Clinton and Foreigners
Date: 13 Sep 92 20:11:40 GMT
Organization: MIT Advanced Television Research Program



>	Bill Clinton promises
>	to take America back for Americans.
>
>	It shouldn't be too hard
>	to figure out who he considers to be "Americans,"
>	and who he wants to "take it back" from.

If Clinton means we should take America back from the prostitute
Goldwaterites who sold us out to turn a fast buck, then I agree.

(By the way, I've heard Bush's version of "taking back America" in
Buchanan's sieg heil convention speech, which Bush and the rest of the
Republican party implicitly sanctioned).

>	If you're a US citizen,
>	please register while there's still time
>	and please get out and vote.

I'll be there.

Kris Popat
MIT Rm E15-391  Cambridge, MA 02139
From: luk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: labour day
Date: 7 Sep 92 21:49:46 EDT
Followup-To: soc.culture.asian.american

In article <7939@public.BTR.COM>, timlee@public.btr.com writes:
> luk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
> |
> |Does anyone know why the labour day in US is on Sept, instead of on May 1?
> |Pardon me if it is a stupid question...couldn't fall asleep last night.
> 
> According to an almanac, Labor Day in the USA was signed into law on
> June 28, 1894.  Perhaps someone else can say when/how other nations'
> Labo[u]r Days came into being.
> 

Isn't it labour day on may 1 in asia and europe?

Xref: sparky soc.culture.asian.american:8886 soc.culture.asean:5999 soc.culture.korean:4230
From: sbarber@panix.com (Steve Barber)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.asean,soc.culture.korean
Subject: Re: Freedom of Speech
Date: 8 Sep 92 04:28:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Sep4.153850.1194@nuscc.nus.sg> eng20009@nusunix3.nus.sg (TAN GIM WEE) writes:

>Yes, Americans have freedom of speech, AI and other things. But if I
>remember correctly, in the American constitution, something was said
>about inalienable rights, which include 'life, liberty, and the pursuit
>of happiness'. Mr Joe, I would like to ask you this: If all have the
>right to pursue happiness, why is there still a huge underclass in the
>US, esp amongst the Blacks and other minorities? What's the use of
>freedom of speech if you can't even have enough to eat? 

An excellent criticism not just of the U.S., but of capitalism in general.
However, just to clarify, TAN GIM WEE got his reference wrong:  the phrase
"life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" was penned by Thomas Jefferson
and appears in the Declaration of Independence, not in the Constitution.
The Declaration is not part of the positive law of the U.S.A. and never was,
whatever its "moral" authority.

The phrase "pursuit of happiness" means that one has the opportunity to
pursue happiness and in this the U.S.A. certainly lives up to this promise.
There are certainly many who pursue happiness their whole lives and never
achieve it.  The underclass is free to pursue all they want.

I have always found the "pursuit of happiness" language to be a bit cynical.
I am told that "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is a modification
of Locke's "life, liberty and property" as a partial listing of inalienable
rights of humans but that Jefferson changed the wording to avoid controversy
in the Continental Congress.  I'm not sure if this bit is correct, but it
certainly is consistent with political discourse in the U.S. to this very
day.

-- 
Steve Barber                                             sbarber@panix.com
"The direct deed is the most meaningful reflection." - Bill Evans
The above is not a legal advice. It is, at best, a discussion of
generalities. Consult your attorney before acting in a specific situation.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Jim Pak)
Subject: Re: Asian American culture (was Re: Some clarification)
Reply-To: jpak@manute.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.  Austin, Tx.
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 05:12:51 GMT

In article <MDAY.92Sep14120046@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu> mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day) writes:
>   tse@loonybin.apple.com (Gary Tse) writes:
>   Do you mean to say that Asian Americans need to partake of their ancestral
>   culture?  
>
>Of course not.  They don't "need to partake" of American culture
>either.  I think you're putting up a straw man.

No kidding!  And I'm surprised Gary's been allowed to get away with this line
of reasoning for so long.

>   What I asked at the start of this thread is whether there
>   is anything more to Asian American culture than victimization and 
>   discrimination.  The answer to that question seems to be "no".
>
>Perhaps you need to clarify what you mean by culture.  You seem to be
>willing to rule out shared aspects of ancestral cultures because not
>all Asian Americans have that experience, but that's much too strict a
>standard.  There are probably no *universal* Asian American
>experiences, not even "victimization and discrimination."  

Yes.  Couldn't have said that better.

If somebody asked me what's one aspect of *American* culture, I could say
the game of basketball.  It certainly is part of American culture, if you
ask me.  And yet, there are a WHOLE LOT of Americans who couldn't care less
about the game, never play it or watch it, and there are also a heck of a
lot of people in other countries who also play and/or watch the game and
enjoy it.  Does this mean basketball isn't a part of American culture?

I'll leave open the challenge I posed in my other post.  Prove to me that
American culture exists, using the guidelines that Gary posed.  I'll prove
it doesn't exist.

Jim
From: shaw@au-bon-pain.lcs.mit.edu (Andy Shaw)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Date: 7 Sep 92 19:05:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: au-bon-p.SHAW.92Sep7140517
	<78804@ut-emx.uucp> <1992Sep3.070444.8226@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
	<79216@ut-emx.uucp>
Organization: MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, Mass.

In article <79216@ut-emx.uucp> joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
   But am I all that unusual?  I seem to be unusual among the "new
   Chinese" who arrived in the United States under the Immigration Act of
   1965, who live in the suburbs, who are descended from professions, and
   who don't speak the language of their parents (Mandarin or Taiwanese)
   very well.

   These are a minority of Chinese living in the United States (maybe 30
   to 40%).

   The majority of Chinese-Americans are descendants from the coolie
   labor in the late-1800's, live in Chinatowns, and still speak their
   native language (Taishan Cantonese or Hakka) after three or four
   generations.

   If you were do take a survey of all Chinese-Americans (not just those
   on NetNews), I'm wondering how unusual my attitudes would be.  I
   suspect they wouldn't be that unusual.

Weird Joe -- perhaps you'd like to cite your sources for these statistics.
As far as I know, there are very few Chinese-Americans who can actually
trace their roots that far back -- after all, most of the Chinese laborers
who came to the States were bachelors or came without their families.
Strict (racist) immigration laws made it very difficult for Chinese women
to immigrate, which set up a sort of "bachelor culture" in Chinatowns,
where male/female ratios were around 10/1 in the earlier parts of this
century.  It's kind of tough to continue a culture when you've got 10 times
as many men as women.

If you've ever seen the movie "Eat a Bowl of Tea", you can see some of the
effects of that culture -- dozens of Chinese men fawning over the few
Chinese women who made it to the States, and "respectable" men using the
services of prostitutes.  Why didn't they marry white women?  Well, until
the late 40's or early 50's, it was illegal due to "miscegenation" laws.

Even today in Chinatown, I would bet that a real big percentage (if not the
majority) are families or individuals who immigrated sometime in the last
20-30 years.  I bet that most of the people speaking Cantonese or Hakka are
fairly new immigrants.

Do you have a source for your statements, or did you just pull it out of
your butt?

-Andy

PS: I don't doubt that your attitudes would be unusual among very new
immigrants, but they are kind of naive considering that you're second
generation.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu (Peter Wung)
Subject: Re: "Rasie the Red Lattern"  was Re: Rapid Fire (probable spoilers)
Reply-To: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:49:24 GMT

In article 2ab51525@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu, luk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu () writes:
>| In article underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>|
>|> Women in Chinese society have been treated like dirt for a long time.
>|> This applies principally to women in the underclasses, which is
>|> almost everybody in Chinese society.
>|
>|In any culture, women have been treated like dirt for a long time.
>|
>|>>However, I was very depressed after the movie.
>|>>Does anyone know why the film was banned in china several years ago?
>|> 
>|> According to Siskel & Ebert, the film was also banned by the Chinese
>|> government on Taiwan.  Both gov'ts sought to hide any revealing look
>|> at the state of Chinese society; much of the conditions that existed
>|> at the time of the film still exist today.
>|> 
>|
>|IMO, the theme of the film has some political implications 
>|, which I failed to catch...
>|


Both governments see the film as an allegory of the status quo versus 
the winds of change.  The husband can be interpreted as the paternalistic
government.  And the youngest wife can be seen as a modern view being 
injected into a decaying society consisting of the wives.  You can take the 
situation and extrapolate it to apply to any of the two governments.

****************************************************************************
*Peter Wung				Email:wung@ee.gatech.edu	   * 
*Electric Power Laboratory		Snail mail: 33787 Ga. Tech Station * 
*School of Electrical Engineering		    Atlanta, GA 30332      *
*Georgia Institute of Technology				    	   *        *Atlanta, Georgia							   *
*   	"Pass, Set, CRUSH!"...						   * 
*  	Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad for a short, fat guy.  		   *
*									   *
****************************************************************************

Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.african.american,ca.politics
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:00:32 EDT
From: <ZQH@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject:    An interesting movie: ``Iron Maze''

I just saw the movie ``Iron Maze'' when I was flapping channels
last night.  It's a story about the attempted murder of a Japanese
businessman with a blonde wife in Pittsburgh --- I guess a lot of
you will be interested.  It will be shown again on Cinemax at 8pm
this coming Sunday (I'm not sure if you can find it in video stores).

About all of those lies about women's status in Mainland China,
I would like to say to Dwight Joe:  go there to see for yourself
and don't be obsessed with hoping to get white girls' acceptance
by defaming your own heritages --- most of white girls (at least
those I know) will be turned off by your neo-Nazi racist views
against your own race.

Since I'm from Mainland China, I guess I can tell some facts
about women's status in Mainland China (at least in cities):
after more than 40 years of brainwashing/equal-right (if not
much more privileges) campaigns for women and minorities by
Communists, Chinese women have gotten higher status in families
(not to mention the privileges enjoyed in jobs/promotions)
than men --- it's wives who control families' purse string;
it's husbands who do most of houseworks;  not to mention
the family laws which systematically favor wives (e.g.,
a wife can get divorced without her husband's consent very
quickly, while a husband can NOT get divorced without his
wife's consent).  There have been complaints that Mainland
Chinese women have lost some femininities because of Communists'
brainwashing --- some of male Chinese students from Mainland
are looking for girlfriends elsewhere, but since the successful
cases with American girls are far and few in between, there
are growing tendencies of marriage with those from Taiwan.
I know a few relationships of Mainland-boy with Taiwan-girl
here in Penn State --- girls' parents usually disapprove it
because Mainland China is poorer, but once the boy can settle
in U.S., girl's parents won't object it any more.

James Huang
From: timlee@public.btr.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: labour day
Date: 8 Sep 92 03:16:09 GMT
Reply-To: timlee@btr.com (Timothy J. Lee)
Followup-To: soc.culture.asian.american

luk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
|In article <7939@public.BTR.COM>, timlee@public.btr.com writes:
|> luk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
|> |
|> |Does anyone know why the labour day in US is on Sept, instead of on May 1?
|> |Pardon me if it is a stupid question...couldn't fall asleep last night.
|> 
|> According to an almanac, Labor Day in the USA was signed into law on
|> June 28, 1894.  Perhaps someone else can say when/how other nations'
|> Labo[u]r Days came into being.
|
|Isn't it labour day on may 1 in asia and europe?

In many countries, yes.  Why do you ask, since you posted the original
article?  If you have any ideas on the origin of Labo[u]r Day in
other countries besides the USA, please post them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee                 timlee@btr.com  ...!decwrl!btr!timlee
This message comes with no warranty, not even an implied warranty of
fitness for any particular purpose.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: shin@krusty.ee.udel.edu (Jeong-Gyun Shin)
Subject: Re: "Chinese-Americans..."
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:12:34 GMT

In article <92255.101446U58402@uicvm.uic.edu> <U58402@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>Being a Chinese-American, I draw from both cultures. Mr. Joe seems unable to
>comprehend the possibility that one can draw from two equally rich heritages.
>
>Mr. Joe has repeatedly stated that he believes Chinese culture should be
>wiped from the face of the earth. This includes, by his definition, the

Possibly case of a profound self-hatred aggravated by possible inferiority 
complex of his own origin, ethnically speaking?   Before being accused
of labeling, note the question mark which means I am just wondering loud.
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Date: 6 Sep 92 18:56:50 GMT
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: Curious Goods (formerly Louis Vendredi Antiques)

joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
>
>The majority of Chinese-Americans are descendants from the coolie
>labor in the late-1800's, live in Chinatowns, and still speak their
>native language (Taishan Cantonese or Hakka) after three or four
>generations.

This is a joke, right?  From what I've seen back in Canada and from
trips to California, the integration of North American born and bred
generations has been as rapid as that of folks of Japanese ancestry.
The language retention that wasn't broken until the 50's and 60's was
due in part to a halt in immigration to both the U.S. and Canada that
kept the few young people, born or arrived prior to the prohibition,
close to their familial communities.  My own family in Winnipeg has
been praised for our Tai-shan retention, yet French is the second
language for both me and my youngest sister ... (English is the
first language of all the kids in m-m-my g-generation ... we all
lived all over town, and similiarly in other cities; seeing this
process being repeated for other linguistic groups is fascinating,
quite frankly.)

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare				
> gld@cunixB.cc.columbia.EDU		Oct 26/92: Just say "OUI!"
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			(Let's worry about the economy!)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american