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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:37:58 PST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         jack_benninga@CSUFRESNO.EDU
Subject:      Re: Great Books
              93 11:10 am

My nomination:

     The Transformation of the School--Lawrence Cremin (1960)

Jacques Benninga
CSU Fresno
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:29:00 EST
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From:         Jack Letarte <JCLETARTE@TAYLORU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Schools: public or private

        Yesterday a number of postings indicated that security of the
President-elect's daughter surely had something to do with their choice
of a private school over public.  If that be the case, I wonder whether
or not he considered home-schooling Chelsea?  Surely the security of
the white house is superior to that of any private school in DC.

                Jack Letarte
                Taylor University
                Upland, IN 46989
                Phone: 317-998-5153
                BITNET: jcletarte@tayloru
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:47:50 -0500
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From:         RUD@WCUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Secondary Ed

Back in my relative youth, when I used to teach classes in informal logic,
I could have used the Chelsea stuff on this net in my teaching of fallacies
and argumentation.  AD HOMINEM argument:  One can determine one's political
position by how they come down on the Chelsea issue (Chelseagate???)!!!

Still searching for enlightenment and clarity!!

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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 12:58:45 EST
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From:         "Michael S. Hines" <MSHINES@FREH-03MS.ADPC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      re: Schools: Public and private

          "Mark Hughes, USNH Policy Analysis" says...

>John,
>
>I think you touch on the major issue being discussed here.  I feel everyone
>understands Bill and Hillary's right to choose what they determine to be the
>proper education for their daughter.  However, going back to the campaign where
>Bill made an issue of the wealthy having all the advantages, while abusing the
>middle class and how his daughter attended public school, intergrated no less,
>to prove his support for the common middle-class family and that he was just
>like us.. Clinton ran a campaign against special privilege and "the perk's of
>the rich" and then, "it's a family decision for us". Had this issue not been a
>part of his campaign, it would not be a big issue now.
>
>Once again supporting the "whatever I have to say to get elected" approach to
>public service.

Is anyone keeping score?  ... and he hasn't even occupied the White
House....yet!

Looks like same-o, same-o to me, nothing new at all!

>
>Senator Hatch's voucher program set out to prove, in several key inner city
>area's, the value of the voucher system.  By utilizing 1% of the education
>budget we could establish some facts with which to support or reject the claims
>of the voucher system.  It is important to remember, the voucher system
>attempts to address not only the parents issue of quality in education but also
>the content of education.  Issues and subject matter that I want taught to my
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>children are not available in the public schools.
>
>                                # Mark Hughes
>                                #m_hughes@athena.unh.edu

Mark - very interesting... I would like to see that addressed in Ed Policy
Anal.

Why have minority groups (as opposed to the majority opinion) been allowed
to dictate ed policy so much?  What happened to our Republic..and the
majority rule?

Why has the U.S. gone so far overboard on "indiviual rights" that we
tollerate all kinds of unsocial behavior?

Why have our representatives at all levels cow towed to every interest
that comes along...in some cases ignoring public popular opinion?

Has socialism and communism crept into our schools?  How did it get there?
 How can we drive it out?

.....enough for now....but there are a lot more questions than answers, I
think....
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:43:33 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         SHIN-JIANN GAU <V116T9CA@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      School Reform: AZ and KY

>An alternative plan for school reform.  Some of the features of KY's plan
>are found in the proposed law for AZ.

What are those features of KY's plan?

>Subject:  School reform in Arizona
>A bill is about to be co-introduced by the chairs of the House and
>Senate Education Committees ( Lisa Graham and Bev Hermon) which
>effectively repeals the Education Code of the State.  443 pages of
>law are to be replaced by about 10 pages.

Is there a way for me to get those two versions of law?  It would be very
interesting to compare them and to know what parts or concerns are still
surviving?  Why are they instead of others?

What's the rationale(s) to make such a dramatic change?

>Key points:  funding
>will attach to kids and follow kids to whatever schools they choose
>wherever in the State.

Isn't it a kind of school choice?

>Local school councils will be given authority
>to set goals and standards, adopt curriculum, set policy,...
>School district
>boards of education and central office administrators will be given
>modest monitoring roles.

It sounds like NY's plan, A new compact for learning: Improving public
elementary, middle, and secondary education results in the 1990s.

What's the relationship between one state's educational reform (or "deform,"
a NY superintendent's term) plan and each other's?

What's the relationship between states' plans and Uncle Sam's?

Shin-Jiann Gau
Doctoral student
SUNY at Buffalo
v116t9ca@ubvms.bitnet
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:52:21 -0600
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         ALANO@HOUVMSCC.VNET.IBM.COM

Subject:Clinton

It's been interesting "listening in" to this conversation on the
Clinton's decision to send their daughter to a private school.  I get
a good feel for a contributor's political position by whether they
attempt to justify the Clinton's decision or whether they attempt to
blame them for holding a double standard.

So, here's my laymen's opinion on this matter.  As with all actions
that people take, what is implied by the action is often more complex
than just what is stated, and sometimes actually ends up being quite
different than what is stated.  To me, in my own amateurish,
simple words, this is what the Clinton's seem to be
implying through their actions, regardless of what they've stated
publicly:  "Public schools are not the best choice for my daughter.
They'd be adequate if I had to send her there, but because I have a
choice (i.e., because I'm rich), I'm going to send her to a private
school.  Now I know that during the campaign I said that I supported
public schools, and I do....for the masses.  Breaking up the public
schools would be a disaster, at least that's what the NEA told me, so
I don't think we should allow just anybody to go to private schools.
Most folks should still send their kids to the public school.  So even
though it's perfectly obvious that public schools are a disaster, at
least here in DC, I still think you ought to send your kids there and,
hopefully, someday, we'll get this straightened out.  I'm going to do
my best to pour more money on this problem and, who knows, maybe it'll
work this time.  But just in case it doesn't, I'm not risking my
child!"

So, just as I've been able to figure out your political positions from
your postings, can you figure out mine?  By the way, there is a third
option that's becoming more popular.  If public schools are inadequate
and private schools are too expensive, then this 3rd option is a
possibility, but it has the distinct disadvantage of requiring
dedicated parents who value their children's well being over their
own careers.  It's called homeschooling.

Alan Ogletree
Houston, TX
(This is my opinion, and CERTAINLY not my company's!)
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:10:40 EST
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From:         "Michael S. Hines" <MSHINES@FREH-03MS.ADPC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Schools: Public and private

          "Scott R. Vaughn" <scott@VAUGHN.HON.MSU.EDU> says..
>>
>> Looks like same-o, same-o to me, nothing new at all!
>>
>
>I'm reminded of the cartoon in the New Yorker several months back.
>Two cows standing in a pasture;  one saying to the other 'There isn't
>a dime's worth of difference between the two candidates. They're both
>carnivores.'
>
>Let's not be like those cows; keep some perspective here.

The comment had to do with the statement of "promise them anything to get
elected".  I think we can already make some measurements against that.
Yes, it is still early....stay tuned for future developments...

BTW - I did not vote Republican.
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:54:27 EST
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From:         "Scott R. Vaughn" <scott@VAUGHN.HON.MSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Schools: Public and private

>
> Looks like same-o, same-o to me, nothing new at all!
>

I'm reminded of the cartoon in the New Yorker several months back.
Two cows standing in a pasture;  one saying to the other 'There isn't
a dime's worth of difference between the two candidates. They're both
carnivores.'


Let's not be like those cows; keep some perspective here.  The
decision to send Chelsea to a private school says little (next to
nothing from my perspective) about the educational policies that the
Clinton administration will pursue.  Furthermore, the Clinton
administration, like any other will be judged on a multitude of
issues, not simply whether Bill, like George, is carnivorous.

It is, of course, impossible to discuss educational policy issues
without discussing other policy issues as well (for a variety of
interesting and important reasons), as the discussion of this
decision has shown. So lets not reduce an entire administration to a
single issue (before we even know what that administration will do).
---
Scott R. Vaughn
The Honors College
Michigan State University
Phone: (517) 355-2326
FAX: (517) 353-4721
E-mail: scott@vaughn.hon.msu.edu
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:31:00 CDT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         "John O. Wong" <JOHNWONG@MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Schools: public or private

Covaleskie,

Linus it was, and I stand corrected.  No need to carry this fine-tuning to any
extent more hair splitting than it is already.  I believe that you know what I
mean, and you clearly understand my concern.  I am, if you may, still very
troubled by the priest who fully understands, and vigorous promulgates, the
Vatican's position on celibacy, and yet at the same time recognises (and I
refrain from the colored term "succumbs") human frailties at his very personal
level.

In such cases, I personally would find it a lot more honest, and straight
forward, by admitting that "public education" is not for my daughter in D.C.,
and not dance around with euphemism and linguistic gymnastics to say that I do
the best for my daughter as a parent, etc...  It is tentamount to lying in a
nice way, and at the same time telling the public that it is OK to do so by
implication.  No apologetics is going to hide the real motive, which in and of
itself is not a bad one.  My objection is to the hypocricy surrounding it, and
the defense put up by liberal intellectuals like yourself, who would have found
this "disappointing" if not "disillusioning."

There are public schools, and there are public schools.  We do know that public
schools are not working, generally speaking, in the inner cities of large
metropolitan areas.  These problems are serious and endemic.  Money alone will
not solve them.  Fundamental questions need to be raised concerning the
underlying philosophy and mechanisms by which these schools operate, and new
ideas from outside the education establishment be explored.

Is "hostage" taking a viable option.  Perhaps, but I seriously doubt it.  If
the highest ranking officials in Washington opt for "family decisions" best for
the children, on what moral basis do we require others to lend their children
to hostage taking??  If we openly say we should support public schools, and yet
privately say it is not for my children, who, then would be "attending" public
schools?

Would the education establishment welcome presidential support for greater
funding for public education?  Of course.  If the president is willing to spend
more, his personal choice of some private school can be easily overlooked, and
if necessary, defended.  Does such a public policy/private choice dualistic
analysis provide a good "cultural foundation" for education?  I suspect many
would say no.  I fear for the worst if we continue to insist on going thru with
this charade.


                                    # John Wong (608)263-3025
                                    # johnwong@wiscmacc.bitnet
                                    # johnwong@macc.wisc.edu
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:26:51 MST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Gene Glass <ATGVG@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Schools: public or private
              12 Jan 1993 11:11:00 CDT from <JOHNWONG@MACC.WISC.EDU>

On Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:11:00 CDT John O. Wong said:
>Is "voucher" like cocaine?  You don't have to try it before you know it is bad?
>Where do we find empirical evidence to buttress this position?

     I heard a media account some weeks ago of a study of a "choice/open
  enrollment" (without vouchers) experiment in Des Moines, Iowa. The
  brief account I caught said that after a couple of years the schools
  were more segregated by economics and race than at the outset.
     If any reader knows the facts, we would all be in their debt if they
  would post them.   Thanks.

-------**********======================================**********-------
GENE V GLASS                                    ATGVG at ASUACAD.BITNET
College of Education                            ATGVG at ASUACVAX.BITNET
Arizona State University       Internet Address:ATGVG@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
Tempe, AZ 85287-2411
602-965-2692
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:24:41 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         U56E3@WVNVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Schools: public or private

One could disestablish all "public" schools (as known to us now), fund
"private" schools with public monies (e.g., through truly ample grants to
parents) and still have public schools.  I suspect many (if not most)
private schools are nonprofit corporations--right?--which means that they
officially attend to the public interest.  What would change in such a scheme
is the basis of public schooling (e.g., as preparation for democratic citizen-
ship).  And many other nations have traditionally maintained a more diverse
(rather, more hybrid) system in which "private" schools get substantial fund-
ing from the state.  They are not therefore less "public."  Any such change
in the U.S., however, would signal a major (already underway) change in the
purposes to which we commit the project of mass education.  Some observers
suggest that evident changes (e.g., Channel 1) indicate that we are already
(even, and perhaps most particularly in "public" schools) moving from
citizenship to "consumership" as the basis of schooling.  The rhetoric of the
last 12 years--a more telling illustration--commends schooling principally
as a means of ensuring that (diminished) citizens will secure employment.
Job-holding is the prerequisite condition of consuming.  The private schools
seem less hysterical about this agenda (doubtless, in many cases, because they
don't worry that their students are destined to handsome careers).  The
Clintons did cite Sidwell's community service programs to help justify a
decision with which they were (of course!) not completely comfortable.

CRAIG HOWLEY, ERIC/CRESS, P.O. BOX 1348, CHARLESTON, WV  25325
1-800/624-9120
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 11:13:41 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      great books

I haven't received any more wonderful book
suggestions so, I thought I'd try to prime the
pump.  I'm really enjoying the development
of a list for myself.
How about:
Plato's Republic
Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics
Rousseau's The Emile
Thomas Jefferson's essays on education

Or perhaps:

Gerald Coles's The Learning Mystique
Alan Peshkin's Growing Up American

For the inspiration of teachers (Are these worth
a try Aimee?):

Samuel Freedman's Small Victories
Theodore Sizer's Horace's Compromise
Tracy Kidder's Among Schoolchildren

--Tom M-P
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Tom Mauhs-Pugh
Cultural Foundations of Education

259 Huntington Hall         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET
Syracuse University       TJPUGH@SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU
Syracuse, New York
             13244        (315) 443-3343
From: JOHNWONG@MACC.WISC.EDU (John O. Wong)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Subject: Re: Schools: public or private
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:24:00 GMT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
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Appreciate the comments on school choice, public or private, by parents holding
public office.  It appears that the primary reasons include:

(1) Security.
(2) Child's (Chelsea's) say.
(3) Better school.

I suspect that few would argue that children of high ranking public officials
run a higher security risk.  Clinton/Gore  do earn higher incomes than the
average American, thus elevating them into the higher income category.

As someone not nearly as thoughful, and with much less conceptual skills, I
cannot help but marvel at John Covaleskie's ability to separate the different
roles the Clintons play as private citizens and as public officials.
I, for one, am helplessly biased towards simple truths and integrated lives.
Allow me to illustrate my confusion and uneasiness with a simplistic scenario.

Suppose I were a Roman Catholic priest.  As an "official" representative of the
church, I support Vatican's enunciation that celibacy must be upheld in
priesthood.  As a private citizen, I respect every individual's right to their
sexual preferences and life styles.  As an individual, I choose to conduct in
sexual intercourse because I love someone very deeply, to the extent that this
intimacy must be expressed in sexual terms if I were to be honest with myself
and my lover.  What am I saying exactly by leading my life in such a manner??
How should I deliver my sermon in a way that the message can remain true and
yet still be clear?

(1) Should I say that the church makes the above distinctions, and that
    celibacy applies only to priests in their "public" lives?

(2) Should I say that the church is not exactly right on the issue of celibacy?
    That there are real problems with nature, morality, and honesty?

(3) Should I denounce the violation of celibacy by prists in the public,
    and accept it as thei right to continue to lead a private sex life?

(4) Should I quit priesthood to conduct my life as an individual?

This is indeed a hypothetical scenario for myself, but is it such a far fetched
one in real life?  Where do we draw the line?  Where does truthfulness end, and
hypocricy begin??


                                    # John Wong (608)263-3025
                                    # johnwong@wiscmacc.bitnet
                                    # johnwong@macc.wisc.edu
From: MSHINES@FREH-03MS.ADPC.PURDUE.EDU (Michael S. Hines)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Subject: Re: Schools: public or private
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:54:57 GMT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
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>     I heard a media account some weeks ago of a study of a "choice/open
>  enrollment" (without vouchers) experiment in Des Moines, Iowa. The
>  brief account I caught said that after a couple of years the schools
>  were more segregated by economics and race than at the outset.
>     If any reader knows the facts, we would all be in their debt if they
>  would post them.   Thanks.

Indianpolis (Indiana) Public Schools is implementing a choice system for
this fall.  They are advertising on TV now, the program and open
enrollment.

I'm not from Indianapolis, so don't have the details.  Just thought you
might want another source.

I don't know what their plans and projections are for the program.
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