HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: SCA geography (was: through a looking ...)
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:21:58 GMT

uplink@cwis.unomaha.edu (Axel Rose) writes:
  	Of course, the followup from my perspective is, "If we can have
  people from non-European backgrounds, why can't we have personas from
  fictional backgrounds?"

Sorry, not a flame.  It's simply that the founders of the SCA, the
people who run it, the folks who we respect in it, and a majority
of the members, don't want to play that game: we want to play the
one the SCA is playing.  We also don't want the SCA to be a bridge
club, sports car racing club, Marching Band society, or any of
a number of things.  Is that bad?

  	You have to understand.  For me, I'm doing good when I decide I
  can get into the silly costumes and play the Kingdom game.  But when I'm
  told that I can't do what I want to do, then it's time for me to start
  making trouble as a way to protest.  And making trouble is what I, and
  those previously mentioned friends, are very VERY good at.

This saddens me.  When not permitted to turn a group into your own
vision of what it should be, because the people who were already there
didn't want to change the game, you got spiteful?  Too bad.

                                                      Maybe I'd like to 
  know what makes the SCA so arrogant to push every other Medievalist
  group out of business?  (I don't know whether this is true or not.)

If you don't know, why make the accusation in public?

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: You know you're in the SCA when... 
Distribution: world
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 03:41:09 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


  > >You know you're in the SCA when...
  > >...you give someone a hug, and when you see the expression on her face,
  > >   belatedly remember that you're wearing a rather well-stuffed codpiece.

  > As was said of a certain gentle of my acquaintance:
  > "That's not a codpiece - it's a waist-level hatrack!"

Ah, this reminds me of the words Katherine Kerr of the Hermitage wrote (to 
the tune of "The Ash Grove") in one of her verses introducing the, er, 
members of our local groups:

                   Vitale and Vildan are lovers true-plighted,
                   Though he's an Italian and she is a Turk.
                   We have to admit that we see the attraction:
                   If Vitale's not functioning, his codpiece will work.

The lord in question has a most *remarkable* collection.

Pagan le Chaunster
Southron Gaard and the (Incipient) College of Rheannag Fhara
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Sod the proles!")
Subject: race and culture
Reply-To: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:59:31 GMT

I have to post this, I can't resist:

one of my brothers, Jebe in the Dark Horde (and most assuredly a very white
man), loves to tell a story about walking around in his full Mongol Shaman
regalia at Pennsic and running into an Asian fellow dressed in full Scottish
kilt, and thinking to himself, "I wonder if I look as wierd to him as he does
to me."

Raedwynne aet thaem Grene Wudu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: LoAR Question
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:36:44 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

I tried to answer this question by direct mail, but the address on the
posting doesn't work.  Maredudd, you should contact your site manager, and
tell him that mail to Eric_Smith@kssib.ksc.nasa.gov is bouncing marked "no
such user".

Your friend's best approach would be to contact the chief herald of
Trimaris, Triskele Principal Herald.  That officer will have the
information he needs.  If you'd like someone here to try to dig it up, it
would help to know when he submitted the device, and whether or not he is
certain that it was passed by Triskele to Laurel.  (If it wasn't, then no
one outside Trimaris will ever have seen it.)  If so, I suggest that you
follow-up to scahrlds@pucc.princeton.edu, the heraldic mailing list, or to
me by direct mail.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REQUEST: Address of Seneschal of Greyniche (THANKS)
Date: 18 Dec 92 21:17:49 GMT
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I now have the address of Master Loren Blackthorne, seneschal of Grey
Niche, courtesy of Countess Kathryn of Iveragh.  My thanks to her, and
to the others who anwered my plea.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: apology Re: rattan sword-making
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 07:21:44 GMT

  

My apologies for the errors in my last posting. My comments should read:

There do seem to be a number of local variations and interpretations of the
rules. I have been hit by shrink rap swords and they do not seem to hit any
then "normal" swords. I tend not to see many of them becouse of the cost of the 
shrink rap. But I expect with the increasing cost and decreasing availablity of 
ratan that I will see more of them. 

I would like to point out that we change the flexablity of the weapons all the
time when we rap them in yards worth of strapping and duck tape. If you want a
real head denter get a hold of some 2" ratan. Plain it down so you have a 2" by
1.25" club. You won't even need to cover it with anything, just practice for a
few years and you will be able to put dents in 12 gage.

I guess what I am trying to say is not to put the onus for safty on the weapon
but on the people useing them.    

Lord Mackenzie of the Shire of Seagirt (we have a whale of a time)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Through a looking glass, darkly
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:25:56 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost


Used to be there were very few black people at Pennsic, and most
old hands could name them off the top of their heads.  In the last
couple of years there were _many_ black people by comparison to
previous years, just on my own personal observation.

And at least in Canada, SCA participation from aborinial peoples seems
quite out of proportion to their appearance in the population at
large, and certainly out of proportion to their appearance in the
university community.

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: asgds@acad2.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Scope of the SCA (was Re: Through...
Organization: University of Alaska
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:44:51 GMT




Greeting Gentle (and not-so-gentles) of the Rialto,

	I am a caucasian, but looking at joining the SCA from a Non-caucasian
point of view it seems to me that there would be a lot of possibilities.
	For women of almost any racial herritage there is the ever popular
merchants wife.  "I was married to my dear departed to cement a relationship 
between families/cities/countries."
	For anyone there is the Join and Joke option.  Be a "Black-Irish" or a
"Blond Samurai" for example, and deal with what wierdness and double-takes come
your way.

	In "western Europe" there were a LOT of non-whites.  Moors in Spain and
Northern (and Southern?) Africa, Gypsy's all over the place, Mongols in Europe
and in Russia, In really Northern Europe there's the Laplander's, Arab's of
course, in the late-period times you could be an New Worlder who has been
brought back, et cetera ad infinitum...

	These are just sugestion.... you might find an approach of your own.

	But, could someone tell me if it specifies "Western Civilization" in
any of the Official Rule's? (i.e. the Corpora)  Because it seems to me the only
problem anyone in the SCA should have is explaining how you're Japaneese Lord
and Arab Lady happen to be at an Elizibethan Yule celebration?:-)

			Love and Miscellanious:)
				Charles du Toutaurien
				(MKA Geoff Stewart)
From: boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (boris)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 03:39:20 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

vnend@nudity.UUCP (David W. James) writes:

> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
> > Please understand, I *do not* want to see that happen. ButI also
> > don't want to get involved with an organaization, the COA, that I
> > feel is actively preventing SCAdians from practicing good
> > heraldry.
> 
> 	Do you have any examples of this?  You've thrown down a gauntlet; I'm
> calling your bluff.  Let us hear some examples of this "good heraldry"
> that the CoA is preventing people from practicing.
> 
> Kwellend-Njal

Time for me to open my big mouth again.

  Charles, we canadians are under a colledge of our own and as such you 
have every right to apply for, and use whatever arms etc., they grant you 
in whatever manner you see fit. I find heralry great fun and If I was 
ever to get involved formally with a group that professes anacronism and 
at the same time beats on people for being OOP, I'd certainly ignore 
their CoA.  I consider it quite "in Period" to play the 'black Knight' 
and ignore authorities I felt had no claim to my respect and/OR 
obediance.

  "good" heraldry indeed. Come off it. one man's garbage is another man's 
treasure.  I've got billions of pieces of 'good' heraldry that the SCA's 
Coa would never pass. They for instance have no sense of Ha-Ha.  The 
plain fact that they are working on a computerized database and wouldn't 
allow a device with a computer in it is a nice bit of ironic hypocracy on 
their part.  Heck if they're so stuck on period this and OOp that then 
the least they can do is be heralds in period and do it all by hand with 
quills.  

  I have a gorgeous set of arms with an astronauts helmet for a helm and 
a nova in a starfield, set in a hexagonal shield.  Nothing 'bad' about 
that. Coa would hate it though.   

  As far as I'm concerned a peice of good heraldic art is one that serves 
the function to which it was designed for; namely to identify the bearer 

 /
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: armor construction
From: vnend@nudity.UUCP (David W. James)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 15:07:42 -0500
X-Mailer: Fernmail 1.1

c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) asks:
> P.S. Has anybody tried to make klibanion (Byzantine lamellar armor) ? With
>      which results ? Any Katafraktoi out there ?

Duke Vissivald fights in one (or at least has fought in one.)  And 
a recent TI (last summer?) included an article by Duke Cariadoc on
making one.  It is probably what my next set of armor will be made
of as well, as it makes sense, is effective and is something I can
do.

Kwellend-Njal
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vnend@hotlips.Princeton.EDU (David James)
Subject: Re: Through a looking glass, darkly
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:36:15 GMT

[This is an anonymous posting.  If you have any comments, please post them
here, as I will not send mail messages back to the source.  Posted by
request.  David W. James ]

Hello.  Could you please post the following to the Rialto on your
ANONYMOUS posting service?  Thank you.

..................................................................

Greetings to the Rialto and to Lord Martin de Mont Blanc in his antipodean
fastness (which I had to look up on the map).

I think the answer to your original question, about pictures you have
seen of the SCA, is probably that whoever took the pictures had no black
"photo opportunities."  This could be either because the photographer's
particular group had no blacks (possible) or because blacks were a small
percentage of his group and didn't get into the pictures (quite likely).

A few random observations:

1.  Have you attended the Pennsic War?  The percentage of blacks there has
been jumping visibly every year for the last two or three years.  (I've
been attending the War on and off, mostly on, since the year they put the
Runestone on Runestone Field.  I'm very curious as to why the sudden increase.)

2.  Bertram of Bearington's description of the average SCA member and what
those characteristics might mean to the "socioeconomic profile" of the society
is very good and, I would say, mostly accurate.  Especially the part about
"avid readers."

3.  I'm not very observant, but in twelve years in the SCA I have seen one
(1) instance of suspected racism, one (1) instance of positive racism, and
two (2) instances of People Who Don't Know Any Better.  You can encounter
more racism than that in mundania in twelve days.  Or twelve minutes.

4.  However, since the subject has come up, it would be nice if the people
at the Pennsic War who decorate their campsites and vehicles with Confederate
flags would PLEASE QUIT IT.  IT SPOILS MY WHOLE DAY!!!

(There's a tame soapbox sniffing around my ankles.  No, dear, I don't need
you; I'm anonymous, remember?  Go home now, you're getting splinters in my
socks.)

-- 
Vnend, Lottery winner #316                 Ignorance is the mother of adventure.  
vnend@princeton.edu, vnend@pucc.bitnet, or {backbone}!princeton!nudity!vnend        
        Anonymous posting service (NO FLAMES!):vnend@ms.uky.edu                          
    "Going to lunch?" "Yep."  "Don't pick up any strange men."  "Why *not*?"
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 8th century persona
Date: 18 Dec 1992 13:44:19 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, Aelgar wrote

>I've been involved with SCA off and on for about four years now.  I've
>picked it up again just recently, and found that I should resolve a few
>things about my persona.  When I was looking for a period name I came across
>an Anglo-Saxon one I was interested in (Aelfgar).  As for a place and time
>period, I found Charlemange's "Germany" interesting . . . which poses a bit
>of a conflict.  So instead of scrapping either one idea or the other, I was
>wondering how period such a merger would be, how might it come about.

The easiest way to explain an Anglo-Saxon in the middle of Karl der
Grosse's East Frankish lands is as a religious aspirant.  Not
necessarily a priest or monk, but perhaps as a lay brother, who's local
bishop recognized in him great potential and sent him to one of the
better teaching monastaries in Saxony or the Rhineland for additional
schooling.  There was a number of cross-cultural "exchanges" like this
during the the first half of the medieval period.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
(who constantly tries to explain Orthodoxy to 11th century Germans and
Italians [though not very well])
=============================================================================

GATHERING OF THE CHIEFTAINS III - January 30, 1993 - Barony of Three Rivers
Calontir's Premier Round Shield and Mass Weapons Tourney!
Write for details via Email

=============================================================================
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu
From: Patricia.Thorp@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Patricia Thorp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: On the nature of armor....
Date: 19 Dec 92 17:19:00 GMT

Pardon me...but what source did you find the weight of a mail shirt to be 
8lbs? Just curious...

                         Jessica Creaven
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Aluminum Armour (was Re: HELP WANTED RE KINGDOM AWARDS)
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:13:20 GMT
Organization: A.I. Chem Lab, University of Arizona

In article <DOCONNOR.92Dec16090456@potato.sedona.intel.com> doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes:

>Those who defend their their personal level of authenticity as the right
>one FOR THEM are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, as long as they remain within the
>bounds established by the governing bodies and documents of the SCA.
>
>Anyone who disagrees with this is trying to force their own personal
>opinion of "what the SCA is for" on others. And that's WRONG.
>Some people just don't get this point.

O'Connor (If you wonder at my lack of an honorific, I would merely like to
point out that he has excoriated me in email for attempting to be polite
to him and getting it wrong.  I publically apologize for my feeble attempts
to be polite to him.  I admit that was definately a mistake.)   has mentioned
"the bounds established by the governing bodies and documents of the
SCA" as the ultimate arbiter of authenticity required.  May I ask exactly
what those limits are?   Or, phrased in a different fashion, just how
awful are we allowed to be?

So, would somebody who has Corpora and other appropos documents please
be so kind as to tell us what the rules actually are?

Thanks
Tom Perigrin
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kballar@triton.unm.edu (Kathryn Ballard CIRT)
Subject: Crowns
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 15:29:57 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

This is just my personal opinion, but I didn't mind at all wearing the heavy	Crown of the Outlands.  Since the position is highly respected and requires	"weighty" decision at times, it is good to be reminded of your responsibility	by wearing the Crown.  If you take your position seriously than the heavy	Crown lends a bit a humility.  The Outlands has a pair of light-weight crowns	but most Royalty choose to wear the "real" Crowns as heavy as they are.	

This is just my opinion -- remember.	

Countess Kathryn of Iveragh, Outlands
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Natural Scottish dyestuffs?
Date: 11 Dec 92 14:42:46 GMT


 FU> ????(yellow) - many yellows and golds were obtained 
 FU> from flowers but I don't
 FU>                specifically what was common in Scotland.

 FU> ????(orange) - There are a few old tartans which had an 
 FU> orange or a red-orange

 I'm not a natural dyer, but I have observed the results of those that do.

 You can get some wonderful yellows, deep golds, and greens from Onion Skins.
 The color changes depending on the mordant, and how long it's left in the dye.

 I've seen madder dyed wool -- it was a soft, rose coral shade.  Perhaps you  can get a good red from it, but I haven't seen it.  Cochinel beetles make  the red that was used for the British Redcoats in the civil war -- bright,  firey scarlet!  I hope the dyers out there will give you more info on all of
 this.

 Have fun!
  
 -- Vashti


 

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: guth@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (G.Guth)
Subject: Re: SCA geography (was: through a looking ...)
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 07:34:54 GMT

I've been following this discussion on just what our bounderies are with some
interest.  May I add a suggestion?  One thing that European, Japanese and
Arabic personae have in common is that all three of those cultures left
extensive written evidence, especially in late period.  One reason we don't
have many Zulu or Amerindian personae is that we don't really know what 
their culture would have been like in period.  (It certainly is a clever way
to get past the authenticity police though).  Because there is little evidence
of any kind for some cultures left, and because so little is known, it is 
hard to generate the same interest.  By limiting ourselves to the pre-1600
period, we necessarily exclude some cultures because of this lack of knowledge.

As for the "geography" of the SCA, I would suggest the following criteria.  We
have elected to centre the society on "western culture".  That is assumed to
be centred in Europe.  Provision is also made to allow travelers from other
areas.  Thus, I suggest we expand our reach to areas in regular contact with
Europe in period.  This may sound a bit restrictive, but consider that the
various Islamic Caliphates, Emirates, etc. all generally fall into this
category, as do the nomadic peoples that periodically swept out of Central
Asia (Huns, Mongels, etc.)  In late period, this definition could conceivably
be even more far reaching.

However, I feel that we should not lose sight of our centre, which is Europe.
I am not aware of official SCA policy on this question, but such sources as
the _Known World Handbook_ make it quite clear that personae from outside the
immediate boundaries of period western culture are equivalent to visitors or
travelors in Europe.  This is not to discourage research outside of European
culture between 600 and 1600 (although there is plenty enough there), but 
more to ensure that the SCA does not become unfocussed because it is too
accepting of non-European personae.  One way to look at this problem is to
make an analogy between adopting a persona from outside the geographical
boundaries of the SCA and adopting one from outside the temporal boundaries,
which (from what I have seen in my limited experiance) is generally 
discouraged.

Richard Britnell.

From: Ulf.Gunnarsson@f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Ulf Gunnarsson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Aluminum Armour (was Re: HELP WANTED RE KINGDOM AWARDS)
Date: 16 Dec 92 16:39:01
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
	<62862@mimsy.umd.edu> <DOCONNOR.92Dec16090456@potato.sedona.intel.com>
	<1992Dec16.182719.8757@pbhya.PacBell.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM's message of Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:27:19 GMT


whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
] In article <> doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes:
] >this
] >armour will protect me in war, which is my primary reason for
] >making it : the authenticity issue is secondary.
]
] But should it be?

Every one must decide on their own, but for me, I'd rather be
healthilly anachronistic than authentically crippled or dead.

Apparently the SCA marshallate shares this view, which is why
we use rattan swords. I guess true Authenticity fanatics
will have to find some other place to play at mideaval combat.

If this thread has degenerated into one-liners, we should drop it.

( BTW : to T.Archer : thanks for the note, but your I can't
  reply to the Internet address that came with it. )
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca