HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 08:03:24 GMT

In article <C019FL.L1z@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
>There is nothing circular in saying that Ezra Pound or Mortimer Adler
>or Allan Bloom or Kenneth Rexroth thought a book important to read,
>and that that is reason to read it in lieu of other books. Their opinions
>simply weigh more than most other opinions.

	Of course it's circular.  You must terminate your explanatory
regress by something other than an appeal to authority if your explanation
is to have any weight at all.

	I personally consider Pound's opinions interesting but often 
preposterous, Adler's and Bloom's tedious and tendentious, and 
Rexroth's . . . it's been too long since I've read any to offer an opinion.
But even if I worshipped at the clay feet of all four, that would say
nothing about their grounds for holding their opinions and certainly would
not justify me or anyone else in following them.

-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone, chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dstein@charon.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell
Reply-To: dstein@charon.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Organization: UCLA, Mathematics Department
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 06:55:23 GMT

Dani Zweig writes:

|> >  3. Why does the definition NOT fit some well known pre-Campbell SF?
|> >
|> >   J. Verne's _20,000 Leagues Under the Sea_
|> >   H.G. Well's _The War of the Worlds_
|> >   A. Huxley's _The Brave New World_
|> >   Capek's _R.U.R._
|> 
|> You're confusing the history of the genre with the history of literature.

   ???  What makes you say this?

|> We may claim these works as early SF, but they are certainly not
|> representative of the sort of writing to be found in the pre-Campbell pulps.

   So?  Neither I nor anyone else I know of claimed this.

|> Nobody's crediting Campbell with the invention of good writing, but he
|> did insist on it in a genre in which it had previously been in short supply.

   We agree.  So?  How does this relate to my article?

|> It could be that if Campbell hadn't been there someone else might have
|> done it, or several other people:  The genre was likely to grow up simply
|> because its readers were growing up.  It could be that if Campbell hadn't
|> been there, others might have done it better.  But this is the old "We
|> shouldn't celebrate Columbus Day because someone else would have done it
|> in time" argument.  Campbell *was* there.

   Sounds reasonable, but it seems that Raymond, to whom I was responding, 
   would go significantly beyond this opinion.  As I understand him he 
   thinks Campbell had such a unique, lasting and revolutionary effect 
   on SF as to redefine it into the form that we know today.  And that
   without Campbell important things that happened would not happen. 
   It's the "Without Columbus we would not find the New World" argument.

   I do not dispute this opinion, I only ask for evidence.

   And I do find the particular definition Raymond gave unsatisfactory
   on several counts.

 - David

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metamathician) - ===
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: alix@iastate.edu (L.A. Melloy)
Subject: Jennifer Roberson's _Tapestry_of_Lions_
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:41:13 GMT

Two things, acutally...

1)  Is there a fantasy written group, or is rec.arts.sf.written taking care
of both the sci fi and fantas genres?

2)  I don't know if anyone out there has been reading Roberson's _Chronicles_
of_the_Cheysuli?  I just picked up the eighth and last in that series,
_A_Tapestry_of_Lions_.  Anyone interested in discussing it (as soon as I get
through it)?


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leigh Ann Melloy  |  "I would like us to come together and build......
alix@iastate.edu  |                a chopstick." - From the movie _Mr._Baseball
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pnh@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
Subject: Re: easy-to-confuse author names (was Re: New Ace SF Specials) 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 12:40:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Keywords: Literary SF

nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:

> The ones it took me a while to get sorted out were Poul Anderson and
> Frederick Pohl, Poul Anderson and Gordon Dickson, and Zelaney and Delazney.
> (Oh well, you know who I mean....)
>
> Any other bunches/pairs that it's easy to mix up?

Well, Delaney and Delany.  Also Frederick Pohl and Frederik Pohl.  I see
these mixed up with one another all the time.  <g>
-- 
Patrick Nielsen Hayden      :     senior editor, Tor Books
pnh@panix.com : CIS 72701,1344 : GEnie PNH : opinions mine
From: ercn72@festival.ed.ac.uk (R.J.Hare)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Level 7
Date: 22 Dec 92 16:18:56 GMT

Just a quick message to thank all those who responded to my query about 'Level
7' by Mordecai Rishwold. Looks as if I may now have tracked down a copy.

Thanks again.

Roger Hare.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: andy@research.canon.oz.au (Andy Newman)
Subject: Re: Greg Bear Blood Music (Spoilers)
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 03:50:47 GMT

jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com writes:
>
>So far, the most enjoyable of these to me has been Vernor Vinge's "Marooned in
>Realtime", where the 'mass mind' occurred sometime while the characters were in
>stasis.  When they awake, everybody's gone.  It is theorized that mankind had
>reached an intellectual 'singularity' where anything that could be conceived
>could be enacted.
>
>Vinge agrees with you, then, that the mass mind is boring, so they went
>somewhere else :)
>

I have to take you to task on this one. In "Marooned" Vinge doesn't
say "why" everyone disappeared. There is much speculation within the
novel as to the fate of the human race and one of the possible
explanations is this "mass mind exodus" from the earth.
-- 
Andy Newman (andy@research.canon.oz.au)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: roten@cuba.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Roten)
Subject: Drake and Stirling (was: War World: Blood feuds)
Organization: /cuba_b/dirbe/roten/.organization
X-Newsreader: GNU Emacs 18.57.1, GNUS 3.13, NNTP 3.10
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 18:11:58 GMT

In article <9212300422.AA18839@rutgers.edu> SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA 
(Graydon) writes:

>Well, Dani is most definately correct that the re-telling of the
>Oedipus ledgend is laboured, but I really liked the rest of this book.

>I like Drake/Stirling flavour stuff in general (Pournelle is a different
>flavour; maybe only the difference between raspberry and raspberry ripple,
>but I'll take the raspberry, thanks), but this one has some *good*
>scenes and images in it.

David Drake and S. M. Stirling know a _LOT_ about history, particularly 
military history, and it shows in their writing .. together with the 
little psychological details about which they are so careful.  Pournelle 
seems a little bit less able to integrate history with SF than the 
aforementioned gentlemen, though.  

The only problem I have with David Drake is that the quality of his 
stuff seems to have slipped since he turned to writing as a profession.  
In his early work, one of his characters could ramble on about the 
construction of a Roman road or a pair of sandals for half a page or 
more, and Drake made it fascinating.  I see this seldom these days.  
And his earlier characters had such clear, hard-edged personalities !  
That, too, seems to be missing in his recent work.  I was afraid of 
this when I learned he had gone professional.  I must confess I find 
Drake's Northworld books not worth the time.  Ah, well !  We still 
have Stirling !  May his output always remain small !  

[rest deleted]

BTW, thanks for the tip about the new War World book .. I can see I 
will have to pay Crown Books a visit this week ....  

--
Charles Roten | Hughes-STX, Incorporated | 
  roten@cuba.gsfc.nasa.gov               | 'Use the Source, Luke!'
  7601 Ora-Glen Dr., Greenbelt, MD 20706 | 
  301-513-7805 (w),  301-317-0872 (h)    |            Obi-Wan Stallman
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Political Correctness + Sci-fi
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 22:40:39 GMT

Michael LaBossiere makes some very useful points about political correctness.
Just a moment ago, in a private e-mail message about Tom Godwin's story The
Cold Equations, I observed:

too much of Cold Equations depends on arbitrary assumptions:
1. Girls are emotional and dumb, even in a starfaring society.
2. Starships can stop and go in emergencies, but shuttle craft operate on
razor-thin margins.
3. Serum (or whatever the mcguffin was--the survey crew was sick with
something, right?) happens to be on board the starship, but the survey crew
doesn't have the resources to produce a homebrew variety.

Nevertheless, a deep bow to Godwin for burning the story into my synapses so
well--and over an even longer period than I recalled.

This is what drives me wild about SF--it's not imaginative enough. Godwin
wasn't alone in failing to think through the assumptions in his story:
remember the human taxi driver who schleps Hari Seldon around Trantor? So
Cold
Equations became just a thought experiment in which everything has to be just
so if it's going to work (suppose the chick was a 90s superwoman quite
capable
of breaking the pilot's neck, jettisoning him, and flying the shuttle down by
herself--what's the moral of the story then?).

End of self-quote. I agree that the story's political values should have
nothing to do with the story's literary merits (and may not even reflect the
author's values, since this is after all a branch of satire). But political
values can hinder a story's literary qualities, as I think they did in
Godwin's case.

For that matter, John Campbell's political values hindered the literary
evolution of American SF very severely indeed. When the present generation of
Campbell's authors finally dies out, I think critical opinion of Campbell
will be deservedly harsh. He was a crank and a bigot, and he demanded stories
that reflected his half-bubble-off-plumb viewpoint. For every young 50s kid
he got interested in space technology, he probably sent another three off in
search of psi talents and other power-fantasy delusions. (Never mind idiocies
like the Dean drive and the boost he gave to Hubbard's Dianetics...)


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pnh@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
Subject: Re: F&SF, Asimov's
Organization: fwa
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 03:00:49 GMT


ojvind@chagall.cns.caltech.edu (Ojvind Bernander) writes:

>The 1991 Novel and Short Stories Writer's Market lists Analog's circulation
>at 100,000 and Asimov's at 120,000.


The 1991 Novel and Short Stories Writer's Market is full of it.

Seriously, don't rely on writers'-market reference books for hard
statistical facts about any aspect of publishing.  Both those figures are
grossly inflated.

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden       :      senior editor, Tor Books
pnh@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * GEnie: PNH * opinions mine


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:54:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.232115.24785@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>In article <1992Dec29.210507.41979@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> jahb@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JENNIFER A. HEISE) writes:
>>By the way, being influential is NOT the sole criterion for the canon--
>>otherwise we'd still be reading Kipling.  (Good characterization, but rather
>>Huckleberry-Finnish in its lack of PC.)
>
>I shouldn't be joining this thread, but...

	Me either, but ...

>
>How can Huckleberry Finn possibly be non-PC or anti-PC? It was,
>and is, one of the most strongly anti-racist books in American
>literature. I would think Huck Finn would be the one part of the
>canon the PC types were happiest with.

	A guess: Uses Politically-Incorrect words.

Regards,
tony
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: frank@fnbc.com (Frank Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Political Correctness + Sci-fi
Organization: First National Bank Of Chicago, Chicago IL, USA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 16:52:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.153935.15939@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> pjs@euclid.JPL.NASA.GOV  
(Peter J. Scott) writes:
> 
> There was a story along these lines that I really liked in IASFM about 3  
years
> ago.  Unfortunately I don't recall the issue, the author, or the title :-)
> but it was about a high-school class in the near-future attempting to study
> a Shakespeare play after every line that could possibly offend anyone had 
> been removed.  There were about 1.5 scenes left.

I remember the author, at least: Connie Willis.  It's one of her "screwball  
comedy" pieces, like "At The Rialto" or "In the Late Cretaceous".  As I recall,  
after the teacher removed the "offensive" parts of Hamlet (the only play not  
forbidden outright), there were five lines left.

--
Frank Mitchell,	Business Systems Analyst, First National Bank of Chicago
email:frank@fnbc.com (NeXTmail)

"'I am that merry wanderer of the night'?  I am that giggling, dangerous,  
totally bloody psychotic menace to life and limb, more like it."
-- Peaseblossom, _Sandman_ #19
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mcmahan@cs.unca.edu (Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner)
Subject: Re: David Eddings: The Sapphire Rose
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:08:08 GMT

Dani Zweig (dani@netcom.com) wrote:
: The third book in David Eddings's "Elenium" trilogy is out in paperback.

The goddamn thing is six dollars!!!!

This is the biggest rip-off ever! No paperback book is worth $6!!!
I almost fainted right there in the book store when I saw that.

I can't even remember the Sapphire Rose story now it's been so long
since one of his books came out in paperback. I do know I'm very
sick of waiting years between the books and getting ripped off
when it does come out. After Christmas they'll probably have the
hardback cheaper than this.

I think Edding's popularity is getting to his publisher or something.
If they keep this up, no one is going to ever want another one of his
books. Years and years between books, less than good stories, outrageous
prices ... I wish these people would get another author to exploit.

People ought to say enough is enough and refuse to be extorted by the
publishers. No author is worth $6 for a paperback. Boycott this
garbage!!!

Scott

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Political Correctness + Sci-fi
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 09:40:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.220152.3293@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr) writes:
>To open this discussion, I would like to ask Michael to define PC
>because it is clear to me that he is using the tokenized PC concocted by
>the now-defunct Republican spin-machine to talk about a body of thought
>of which they had precious little comprehension.

A good example of PC-ness of the most brain-dead sort is the people who
consider William Shockley a racist, but do *not* consider Leonard
Jeffries to be a racist.  (My opinion -- racists are racists, no matter
what color sheet they're wearing.)

>In a nutshell, this body of thought which has emerged over the last 10
>years seeks to broaden the literary cannon to include works by non-DWM
>(dead white males) which deserve inclusion but which have been
>traditionally excluded due to institutional bias, racism, or just plain
>ignorance of their existance.

I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue against this.

>Now there is also a harder edge to this thought, a more radical side
>which seeks to undermine the cannon, to toss it out as fundamentally
>flawed.  I don't agree with this argument, but I still consider myself
>to be "politically correct."

How about all the Stanford students and faculty parading around
chanting "Hey, Hey, Ho, Ho, Western Culture's got to go." It seems
to me that the "radical fringe" is more mainstream among the
"multiculturists" than you seem to believe.
-- 
Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
mvp@netcom.com         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
                       | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
                       | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cstringe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Chuck Stringer)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Organization: Indiana University, University Computing Services
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:42:31 GMT

drg@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez) writes:
| >How can Huckleberry Finn possibly be non-PC or anti-PC? It was,
| >and is, one of the most strongly anti-racist books in American
| >literature. I would think Huck Finn would be the one part of the
| >canon the PC types were happiest with.
| 
| Irrelevant to the Politically Correct. The book contains the word "nigger",
| therefore it is evil - never mind what the words surrounding it say.

Apparently you haven't understood the words surrounding it if
you actually believe that Clemens was advocating racism. Read Pap's
'You call that a gov'mint?' speech again. You've missed the entire
point of the work.


----
Chuck Stringer
E-mail cstringe@ucs.indiana.edu

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: phaedrus@halcyon.com (Mark Phaedrus)
Subject: Re: Paranoia Novel?
Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 03:14:00 GMT

In article <725556976.AA00739@tdkt.kksys.com> John.M..Ford@f341.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (John M. Ford) writes:
>        There was also supposed to be a PARANOIA comic series, but 
>Marvel dithered for an extended period of time and decided against 
>it.

     There is indeed a Paranoia comic series, put out by Adventure Comics.
(Yes, there are indeed other comic publishers besides Marvel. :) )  I only
bought the first two issues, but I know they put out at least four or five.
(At least the first two were quite a bit grimmer than most Paranoia stuff,
which turned me off on them.)
-- 
\o\ Internet: phaedrus@halcyon.com  (Seattle, WA Public Access Unix)     \o\
 \o\ "How'd you like to move a few steps down the food chain, pal?"       \o\
  \o\ If you enjoy fantasy/SF stories with transformation themes, email me \o\
   \o\ for a copy of the Transformation Stories List.                       \o\
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Date: 28 Dec 92 20:13:32 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1967@spam.ua.oz> jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1992Dec8.162158.4990@wri.com> novak@wri.com (John M. Novak) writes:
>>In article <9212081258.AA00549@it122.dcs.qmw.ac.uk> winston@dcs.qmw.ac.UK
>>writes:
>>>[... material indicating that Heinlein wasn't PC...]

>>Multi-ethnic : his characters are from a variety of ethnicities (for example,
>>_Time Enough for Love_, where the Longs are on Boondock discussing the bad old
>>days, or _Starship Troopers_ (Juan Rico was Phillipino (sp?)), or many, many
>>others...

>Just one little quibble - his characters are occasionally Not White (tm)
>eg The Moon is a Harsh Mistress but they are uniformly culturally
>white.

Not true at all.

>I am not aware of a single (positive) character in any of his books who
>could not be accurately described as a WASP American.

Virtualy no one in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress would have fit
culturally into any American society.

>If they are not
>WASP's then it is incidental. It is almost unthinkable for one of his
>characters to be a Moslem or to speak English badly or to oppose women's
>right to walk unveiled and so on. 

I fail to see why it is important for someone to speak English badly.
Many of his characters do not speak English at all - he translates.
So what?  As for the other too, may I please point to "Stinky" in
Stranger in a Strange Land?

>Just think of Juan Rico mentioned above,
>could you imagine him ever critising the United State for the wholesale
>massacres commited there by the US Army?

Nope.  Most Filipinos would not do so either.  I hate to break it to
you, but most Third Worlders are not the romantic revolutionaries you
seem to admire.  

>>Non-discriminatory (sexuality or gender) : sure, his women like men; but they
>>are still intelligent and tough (I, for one, would not like to mess with Deety,
>>unless I wanted to end up disabled...).

>I wouldn't go too far with his women. Sure they aren't all complete losses as
>people but they are usually the exception. Also what I said above applies even
>stronger here - could you imagine Deety wanting to wear a veil for
>instance?

Consider Dorcas in Stranger in a Strange Land.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.