HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: absolute truth
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:13:49 GMT

Bear Giles (bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU) wrote:

: In article <1992Aug24.225206.20881@unislc.uucp> erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
: >Bear Giles (bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
: >
: >: (Then again, my god _is_ a teacher.  A trickster, but still a teacher).
: >
: >Coyote? :)
: 
: Actually, yes (as far as I can tell).

Well, when you said trickster, Coyote immediately came to mind.

: Alas, most texts tend to dismiss tricksters.  Joseph Campbell (in _Hero_,
: as I recall) seemed to miss the point in his discussion of _Ehru_ 
: althought in his PBS series he seemed to finally understand.  This makes
: it hard for me to say 'yes, Coyote is the same goddess.'

Some very great human spiritual teachers have been tricksters.  Just another
teaching artifice.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: absolute truth
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:18:52 GMT

John Emery (emery@tc.fluke.COM) wrote:

: >They have labeled those people who do not follow an organized religion
: >"new agers" and, because they are thus labeled, they are a religion.  QED.
  
: Newage as I see it: a lightly knit group of individuals and orginazitions
: that hold to pantheism, global enlightment, and reincarnation, who believe
: we are exiting the piscean age and enterining into the age of aquarius.

An interesting definition, but not universal.  Certainly none of these ideas
(individually or collectively) are new.  Many Jews believed in reincarnation
(this is mentioned in the NT in at least one place), Jesus preached global
enlightenment (as did many others), and many, many cultures had pantheism
as their main spiritual and/or philosophical basis.  The American Indian
culture, for instance.  Hardly new.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Xref: sparky talk.religion.newage:4099 alt.alien.visitors:6184 sci.skeptic:15164
From: mgm@clipper.ingr.com (Mike Marfell)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Mt.Shasta  (Was: Get Off John's Back Please!)
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:16:11 GMT
Organization: Intergraph Advanced Processor Division - Palo Alto, CA

In article <64718@cup.portal.com>, John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com writes:
> Dear Free Thinkers: There has been a slight change in my plans. I won't 
> be leaving for Mt. Shasta till about 400 AM thursday morning. My son and 
> I hope to explore an ice cave or sometimes called a volcanic vent that
> is within 12 miles of our property. This vent extends underground a short
> distance then is about one half mile long as it goes parallel with the
> surface. I feel that about 10,000 people may be able to get in there in
> case something happened. I hope to put some survival provisions in there
> just in case. 
> John Winston.


   Now is this an open invitation or is it limited to the New Revisionests
 and or Nazi scum you always write about. 

      PS: Hope the vent does'nt erupt.  NOT!!!
-- 

Mike Marfell                                      mgm@clipper.ingr.com
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: absolute truth
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 00:26:07 GMT

In article <sbuckley.714778818@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
>bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles) writes:
>>Of course, you could always try reading the entire _Illuminatus!_ trilogy
>>one weekend.  (_Don't_ stop partway through the first book).  If that
>>doesn't shake up the synapses...
>
>  and i love wilson's fiction, but as a practical, relevant philosopher
>for how to live my life, i'd rather listen to sally jesse raphael.  i've
>read illuminatus and i loved it as a book.  but as per #2 above, i have
>no intention of relinquishing my identity or the critical capacity

Not even his "get into the other person's world view?"

Personally, I have a much better feel for who _I_ am after jumping
into other world-views than I had before.  This really highlighted
what I cared about, and what was just 'conditioning.'

Besides, it's great for confusing people when they have you pegged
as a Flaming Liberal (tm) and you quote the _National Review_ to
support your position.

>set tirade=off :)  but the spiritual pablum on the market just disgusts
>me to no end.

Out of curiousity, can you give examples?  I would imagine anything
with crystals, channelling or atlantis, but what about Oral Roberts?
Pat Robertson and Pat Buchanan?


Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: absolute truth
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:18:32 GMT

In article <sbuckley.714779399@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:

>...  being without needs is to be vacuous and empty.

To be without needs is to be full.  To be able to meet the needs
of others is to be full to overflowing.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
From: jcitro3@cwis.unomaha.edu (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 20:59:22 GMT

OOOPs. I don't know what happened to my followup, but ere it is again...
Be careful in the Mt. Shasta area.  I hear there is a bad fire in the region.

                                        Joseph A. Citro III
                                        
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Proof: God wrote the Bible
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:29:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.133701.202586@uctvax.uct.ac.za> fllant01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:

>The following now is
>from the Greek, in whick the N.T. is written. The actual numerics are
>by Dr. Panin.

I fear either god or Dr Panin can't count.  I just checked Matthew i:1-11
in my copy of the greek new testament, and almost all the cited numbers
are wrong.

Let one example serve.  The text claims seven common nouns occur in the
text.  Exactly six occur: biblos, geneseos, huios, adelphos, basileus,
metoikesia.

Incidentally, this kind of fake numerology is full of pitfalls, especially
in an inflected language like Greek.  The author is clearly counting the
definite article as one vocabulary word, for instance, even though it
occurs in three different forms.  But he also counts 'geneseos',
"generations" as a different word from 'egennesen', "begat", even though
they are indeed different forms of the same word.  His count of names
comes out correct if you arbitrarily declare "Christos" a proper noun
and "Babylonos" not a proper noun.  His count of words that begin with
vowels is wrong anyway, but seems to assume that the greek rough breathing
somehow doesn't count, so "Hesrom" and "huios" begin with vowels.

There seems to be enough arbitrariness in the counting process to allow
any number to be fudged a little one way or the other, which rather
reduces the improbability of the whole thing.  Reminds me of dear old
Charles Piazzi Smythe, who wrote a book proving that the internal
dimensions of the Great Pyramid predicted history, and was later caught
filing down the corner of a sandstone block, to make the date fit better.
From: wes@uf.msc.edu (Wes Barris)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
Subject: new age speakers???
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:12:33 GMT
Reply-To: wes@msc.edu
Organization: AHPCRC, Minnesota Supercomputer Center


Posted for a friend...

Hi,

I am a member of a small study group in Minneapolis, MN.  This study group
is a part of an organization called the "Association for Research and
Enlightenment".  We are interested in finding a speaker to address up to
100 people on any of the following topics: meta-physical, new age, or holistic
healing.

I am interested in hearing any recommendations from anyone.  Any additional
information such as contacts, costs, etc. would be most helpful.

Thanks,

Lori
-- 
===============================================================================
Wes Barris                                                   PH: (612) 626-8090
Minnesota Supercomputer Center                               Email: wes@msc.edu
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 15:20:15 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <63361@cup.portal.com> <1992Aug4.155501.9315@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>

Dear Free Thinkers: There has been a slight change in my plans. I won't 
be leaving for Mt. Shasta till about 400 AM thursday morning. My son and 
I hope to explore an ice cave or sometimes called a volcanic vent that
is within 12 miles of our property. This vent extends underground a short
distance then is about one half mile long as it goes parallel with the
surface. I feel that about 10,000 people may be able to get in there in
case something happened. I hope to put some survival provisions in there
just in case. 
John Winston.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: absolute identity
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:53:23 GMT

In article <sbuckley.714966300@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
>ando writes:
>>identity = life. interesting. would you entertain the prospect that
>>life is possibly more than your identity? 
>
>  that's not what i'm saying.  i don't think life=identity.  but
>without my self, my identity, what is it that is living life?  it's not
>me anymore, that's for sure.

There is more to you that what you call your 'self.'

The best example I can give is an athlete as s/he is performing a task
requiring skill and concentration.  This happens to me when hiking and
cycling, but much more strongly when breaking boards in my martial art.

When I am breaking a board _I_ don't cease to exist, but my 'self'
in the sense you use above goes away and does something else for awhile.

Seriously, I get in stance, reach 'calm' and then I'm see/hear the pieces
of broken board hitting the ground.  I can access memories of everything
that happened between those events, but between them I am operating out
of a deeper 'center' than I normally use.  (Sorry, no other way to
describe it).

Incidently, some fundies oppose martial arts classes because they
are 'satanic.'

>>> but the spiritual pablum on the market just disgusts me to no end.
>
>>of course, you're a fundamentalist christian. i'm sure that everything
>>that is not fundamentalist christian disgusts you and you want to
>>just get rid of it all. Heck, it might threaten that shakey identity
>>of yours. Sounds pretty scary.
>
>  man, you should be careful about the assumptions you make about me.  i'm
>not a book burner or censorship monger.  i have a broad collection of new
>age books.  and the only thing that was shaky was my faith in the pablum. 

I thought that reaction was a little excessive, myself.  I haven't figured
out your particular style of Christianity (definitely not a bible-thumper,
because I can't recall seeing you quote Christian scripture) and you
certainly aren't cramming it down our throats.


Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov
Xref: sparky talk.religion.newage:4170 alt.alien.visitors:6307 sci.skeptic:15694
From: John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Date: Tue,  1 Sep 92 18:52:02 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <64571@cup.portal.com> <2489@israel.nysernet.org>

All People That On Earth Do Dwell: I just got back and to comment on Joseph
A. Citro III's statement, yes there was a forest fire going at Burney, Calif.
about 40 miles away from where I was. It's good to hear that Warren is having
some fun about the story of the talking fish, maybe he had one over for 
dinner. Thanks for the information about the word Dharmara. Clipper asked
if anybody is welcome to my place of the sides of Mt. Shasta. Yes eveyone.
I don't care if you have scales or feathers either.  We went to an ice cave
and came very close to the one half mile cave that I was looking for but
my son did find and go in a volcanic vent cave up in Washington State.
It's called Ape Cave and it is on Mt. St. Helen. It is 2 and one eighth
miles long. It  could hold many thousands of people. The rangers are 
thinking about putting lights in  it and using it as a shelter.
John Winston
Xref: sparky talk.religion.newage:4161 alt.alien.visitors:6273
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:38:36 EDT
From: Joe Carlson <JKC3@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
 <92237.232551JKC3@psuvm.psu.edu> <g9anv_m.jeffp@netcom.com>

In article <g9anv_m.jeffp@netcom.com>, jeffp@netcom.com (Jeff Papineau) says:

>In article <92237.232551JKC3@psuvm.psu.edu> JKC3@psuvm.psu.edu (Joe Carlson)
>writes:
>>I think you need to get your story straight....You mention a 4 yr old
>>and the 2 large wolves, and then you say there were just the 3 of you
>>2 of your boys, 10 and 11 yrs of age, I believe, and one that you left
>>sitting at the tree line.  Surely you wouldn't leave a 4 yr old alone
>>at the tree line and travel 3 miles plus up the mountain...so
>>I think I've reached the conclusion that you are full of bull feces!
>>
>>"Beware false Prophets"   which I think you are.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>John is a deeply religous man and I think until he starts claiming he is
>Jesus Christ, we could do without these personal attacks...
>Jeff-

 Oh, this wasn't a personal attack,just an opinion....and I think we could do
without you, but again, it's just my opinion.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: is newage distinguishable?
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:08:38 GMT

Stephen Buckley (sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca) wrote:

: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
: 
: >: Bear Giles writes:
: 
: >: >Actually, a good definition of a major thrust of the 'new age' can
: >: >be summarized by some 18-th Century radicals:
: >: 
: >: >  The pursuit of life, liberty and happiness with enlightened
: >: >  self-interest.
: 
: >Oho!  So it isn't so "new" after all...
:   
:   except that now, people are claiming to be god.

Really????  Interesting ... I recall Herod making the same claim.  How long
has *he* been dead?  The Egyptians used to worship their Pharoahs as gods,
too.

Perhaps some claim to *be* god.  I only claim that god is within me, a belief
that any devout Christian would have to agree with.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: absolute truth
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:41:20 GMT

In article <sbuckley.715477295@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:

>  gosh, i'm not sure there were hindus or buddhist around there at that
>time.  just because the buddha said things similar to jesus' words doesn't
>mean jesus knew of buddhists.

Sigh.  Please take the trouble to read the Milinda Panha before making
guesses about the relationship between Buddhism and the Hellenistic East.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley)
Subject: Re: absolute truth
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:41:35 GMT

Ed Carp writes:

>Stephen Buckley (sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca) wrote:

>:   and that's hardly relevant.  it doesn't matter how old the new age 
>: philosophies are when it comes to deciding things about the new age.
>: nobody's critiquing newage based on the argument that it's new, because
>: it's clearly not.

>Au contraire!  I have heard many "Christians" decry "The NewAge Movement"
>because, in their view, it has no roots; it has not been "proven" over time.

  well that's unfortunate.  a bad argument.  it's kinda like
seeing the light bulb in edison's hand and saying "what, it's
2 days old?  it can't be useful at all then."  the point is not the
age of the doctrine/philosophy, but the relevance and assumptions.

>I never heard JC criticizing anyone but the Pharisees and Saducces.  Nary a
>word about the Hindus, or the Buddhists, or anyone else.  Certainly he was
>aware of these religions - many of his teachings could be heard straight from
>the Buddha.

  gosh, i'm not sure there were hindus or buddhist around there at that
time.  just because the buddha said things similar to jesus' words doesn't
mean jesus knew of buddhists.  i hope you weren't really arguing this!


 [biblical historicity stuff deleted]

>I don't want to start the tired old thread of whether the NT was written in
>Greek (proven false for years), Aramaic (some still believe this despite
>linguistic evidence to the contrary), or Hebrew.  You will believe what you
>want tobelieve.  Please stop trying to jam your beliefs down others'
>throats.

  well don't introduce biblical historicity if it's not your point.
and please wake up and acknowledge that i'm forcing nobody to become
a christian, ed.  if you think i am, you're wrong.  put me in your kill
file.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
From: LINSCOT@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU (Stephen M. Linscott)
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Organization: Rice University  
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:10:54 GMT

In article <64695@cup.portal.com>
John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com writes:
 
>
>Dear People: In the small town of Mt. Shasta City, Calif. there is an
>organization call the I AM Group or something to that effect...
 
[much stuff deleted]
 
 
>If I attempted to join this organization they would probubly kick
>me out because I'm a loaner.
>John Winston.
 
  OK, I'm slow... I just noticed that there is only one letter difference
between newage and sewage!!!
                                               - Steve -
 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Subject: Re: absolute truth
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 08:53:43 GMT
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

John Emery <emery@tc.fluke.com> wrote:
[about murder being wrong, and right/wrong in general]
: >: I think the issue is still alive and would enjoy hearing thoughts on it.
: >What about less thoughts about right and wrong, and more love in practice?
: 
: Are you saying that more love in practice is good? Is right?
The problem with words like "right" and "wrong" (and with words in general),
particularly combined with ideas of "absolute", is that they create [concepts
of] divisions, separations - one side here, the other side over there.
That may be practical for talking about the result of a math question, but when
discussing "reality", there's a big danger that "the map is taken as the
territory", to use a common metaphor.
And many religions (IMO also the core of Christianity, though not much of what
is commonly "sold" for it) tries to "point to" the territory, encouraging a
drop of maps (of course they can still be used, but seen as what they are).

: Perhaps love is an absolute right.
Is it _in_practice_ helpful to tell someone who doesn't love he _should_love_?
Does love come on command, or is it a spontanous expression?
Can it be ruled and still be alive, or does it need and give freedom?
Does love exclude that what doesn't love?

: What do you think?
Thought's are always changing, so that's hard to tell.
Is there really a thinker, other than the "it" in "it is raining"?

: By the way, no one has been willing to answer my questions directly.
What I'm trying to show is the problem inherent in such (pseudo-)separations;
for many this may be the reason for not answering "directly" in the way you
are expecting it. Does this make some sense to you?

: Peace, love, and hope and all that is good be upon you,
Love, peace and joy to all - but actual joy can be without hope.

If you want to read something about what freedom, love and religion have to do
with each other, maybe try the following books by Alan Watts (they are much
"down to the floor" and also quite humourous, no dusty theory):
- The Wisdom of Insecurity
- The Meaning of Happyness

Love and do what you want :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Wachowitz, mw@gandalf.ki.fht-mannheim.de, 75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
Xref: sparky talk.religion.newage:3982 alt.alien.visitors:6031 sci.skeptic:14851
From: rogue@ccs.northeastern.edu (Free Radical)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Date: 23 Aug 92 19:45:45 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU

In article <64472@cup.portal.com> John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com writes:
>Dear People: Well it looks like Lenard, Bear, Jeramy and RA have been
>trying to eat me up as usual. The magazine referred to is the tabloid
>Magazine called Sun.
>John Winston.

John - why do you take anything found in this magazine, and others of its ilk,
seriously?  Do you have any reason other than 'they print articles that confirm
my pet theories' or 'I have poor judgement'?

	RA
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: is newage distinguishable?
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:38:13 GMT

Stephen Buckley (sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca) wrote:

: Bear Giles writes:

: >>	bureaucratic		maximum personal freedom
: 
: >(I'm assuming you're not refering to silly things like unisex restrooms
: >in the first category).
: 
:   :)  correct.  :)

Yeah, but then he talks about "movements" later on.  *I* think the guy is
anally-fixated.  :) :) :)

: >I, for one, don't care for "cosmic systems" or "global unity focus."

Sounds like what Dick Sutphen would call "cosmic foo-foo" :)

: >Actually, a good definition of a major thrust of the 'new age' can
: >be summarized by some 18-th Century radicals:
: 
: >  The pursuit of life, liberty and happiness with enlightened
: >  self-interest.

Oho!  So it isn't so "new" after all...
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage