From: ethridge@bnr.ca (Allen Ethridge)
Subject: Re: Just how much smarter are atheists?
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 22:23:15 GMT

In article <910773f.30.724186770@ace.acadiau.ca> 910773f@ace.acadiau.ca (HEATHER LEE FYFFE) writes:
>arguing with Christians, even apathetics who say `whatever works'.  Some try 
>more forcibly, some don't really _try_, but just stating your own opinion 
>forces others to consider it.  But if you don't believe in your truth 
>strongly enough to consider it the big-T Truth, then why do you believe in 
>it at all?  
>
>Before you flame me on this point, I know that most of you atheists on this 
>group DO consider your truth to be the big-T Truth and you're not afraid to 
>say so.  These last paragraphs were aimed at those who say `you believe what 
>you believe and I'll believe what I believe and let's not get in other's 
>way, OK?'.  
>
I haven't found the big-T Truth yet, although i think i've come close a time
or two.  Atheism just works better than anything else i've seen so far.
And what's wrong with doing to others as you would have them to to you, anyway?


>First of all, it is a hole, not a hope.  Though perhaps that was a Freudian 
>slip....?  Everyone, whether they will admit it or not, knows that they have 
>a soul.  Noone can possibly believe that `I', what makes me `me', my 
>thoughts, my feelings, my personality, is merely a product of atoms jumping 
>around in the brain.  You all know that there is something intangible that 
>is `you'.  This is spirituality - not believing in ghosts, but believing in 
>people.  All people also wonder, at least a little bit, `why'.  This is the 
>God-shaped hole.  The longing for a purpose, the human condition.  The 
>reason that men go into space.  The reason people crave money, power, 
>attention.  The reason some become drug addicts, alcoholics, sexaholics.  
>They are searching for fulfillment, a reason for being.  Some just give up 
>and become apathetics.  That does not mean, though, that if a truth was 
>proven to them, they wouldn't be happy about it.  They'd still like to know, 
>they just gave up trying to find out.
>
You really had me going until this paragraph.  Atheists, generally but not
always, do believe that the "I" is just the product of the brain.  Certain
spiritual traditions also teach that this "I", this "something intangible
that is 'you'" is in fact the source of spiritual ignorance.  They maintain
that this self or "soul" as you call it is an illusion that prevents us from
seeing the grand ultimate spirituality reality.  So not only can and do
materialistic atheists believe the self is a product of the brain, certain
spiritual traditions maintain that it is a harmful delusion.

This longing for a purpose does not prove that there is a purpose to life.
And removing this longing does not make a person apathetic.  Again, some
spiritual traditions teach that this longing is also harmful.  I've found
that the less i want the happier i am.  To say that i'm simply apathetic
is inaccurate and could be taken as an insult.

If you really want "proof" that your thoughts, feelings and personality are
just a product of you brain might i suggest LSD.  If you really are as
intelligent and rational as you believe yourself to be you will have a hard
time reconciling LSD experiences with a non-material soul.


>How else can you explain the intense happiness and joy that new Christians 
>experience?  We finally feel fulfilled, yes, this is what I've been waiting 
>for.  Now I have something to strive for.  How many ex-Christians can say 
>they felt that when they left the faith?  Most often they left because of 
>disillusionment, disappointment, and disgust with the Church and its 
>operations.  And I must say, in most cases I can't blame them.  The Church 
>as an organization is materialistic, egotistical, and uncaring about its 
>members.  But can those who left truly say that they have found happiness 
>since?  Sure, you may say it easily, and you probably will.  But I challenge 
>you to question whether you really, truly mean it, or is it just another 
>mask?
>
No, i didn't experience intense happiness and joy when i abandoned
Christianity, but in general i have been happier.  On the other hand i make
a point of not making major life decisions solely on the basis of emotion.
I do have to question your sincerity when you presume that i can't really
be happy having left Christianity.  Your last sentence in fact implies that
i am being dishonest.  Is it your intent to call  me a liar?

This point does intrigue me.  You stated previously that your acceptance of
Christianity was intellectually based, yet here you appeal to emotion.
What is your real basis for accepting Christianity?  Is it really intellectual,
or are you perhaps wearing the "mask"?


>I have to wonder about those who can do nothing but flame, flame, flame we 
>Christians.  Any attempt at serious discussion is countered with sarcasm and 
>vicious attacks.  Sure, there are some Christians who attack too.  I must 
>wonder what their motivations are, and how they can possibly think they're 
>doing any good, and if they've considered whether Jesus would approve of 
>their actions...  But to the atheist who merely flames, I must ask why?  Are 
>you afraid of actual discussion?  Are you so insecure in your own beliefs 
>that you must brush off any contradictory statements without even 
>considering them?  And even though you may lightly flame off these comments, 
>do you really consider them so incredibly stupid as to not even be worth 
>considering?  That seems to me almost as bad as those types of `fundie' 
>Christians that you guys are always complaining about...
>
>Just some food for thought.  Responses, compaints, comments welcome, but 
>please, be mature enough not to flame.
>
>
>Love,
>The Buzzard
>
Sure, i'll be mature enough not to flame if you'll be mature enough not to 
tell me what is and isn't true, what i can and cannot believe.  Flames are
generally an appropriate response to a theist who come into alt.atheism and
preaches, especially when the theist makes untrue and unsupported statements
about what someone can and cannot believe and generalizes about the behavior
of atheists.  I don't brush off contradictory statements without considering
them.  I tried Christianity; it didn't work.  All you're really saying in
these last two paragraphs is that if i don't agree with you i must be stupid
and not really willing to consider your point of view.  Why do you find it 
necessary to insult me?

You may be as intellectual as you claim to be (not that i've ever had much
respect for intellectuals) but all you've presented is a reformulation of 
traditional Christian (and dare i say fundamentalist) arguments, the gist of
which is "if you don't accept Christianity it's because you refuse to accept
the truth".

Sarcasm is just plain fun, but i'm not really in the mood today.
-- 
allen@well.sf.ca.us
ethridge@bnr.ca
my opinions are my own