HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jdm@rmtc.Central.Sun.COM (Jim Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Was Re: Team Motorola
Date: 12 Jan 93 11:23:57 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) writes:

>Perfectly correct.  But it is interesting to note that a lot of time a 
>rider gets classified as {sprinter, climber, time trialer ...}.  The fact
>is that doing all of them quickly takes power.  You have it or you don't.
>So who is making up this bunk?  Or is this turning into another inane sport
>like football, baseball, wrassling and the others?  If you can climb a hill
>then you can time trial.  The only difference is psychological (well there is
>the body weight).

True sprinting/climbing/TTing all take power, but under very different
circumstances. It would seem almost impossible to excel at all of
them. Janssen's book examined the physiology of the extremes of a
sprinter vs. a aerobic athlete (in this case sprint runner vs. marathoner)
and they were very different. The sprinter had an extremely low
anaerobic threshold as measured in lactic acid concentration. The
marathoner had a very high threshold but could not produce nearly 
the power no matter how short the distance. You wouldn't see such
a pure sprinter in road racing as everyone has to ride 100+ miles
including the "sprinters". But you would probably see some pure sprinter
types at the velodrome.

As far as climbing and TTing goes, I thought the former measured
power to weight ratio and the latter power to wind resistance. Thus
climbing would favor a smaller rider and TTing (at least flat TTing)
would favor a larger rider. The fact that Indurain can generally stay
with the best climbers at 170lbs shows incredible power output and
would imply that he would be an awesome flat TT'er. Hampsten and
Chiapucci (sp) are great climbers, but at 140lbs they are not going
to produce Indurain's power, but their wind profiles will not be much
different that Indurains, thus the slower flat TTing. Another data
point is John Stenner. I saw him at a local bike shop giving a talk
on his Zipp TT bike. This guy is a brute - I would guess 190+ lbs.
He is not going to be a great climber, but he sure can move a bike
on the flat TT courses at Alamosa and Moriarity.

jim
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:07:57 GMT

In article <3450012@hplred.HPL.HP.COM>, jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
|> David George writes:
|> 
|> > I feel this is more a reflection on the choice of glue than a
|> > limitation of tubulars.  A glue such as Evostick contact adhesive
|> > (favoured by some track riders) won't soften with heat like the
|> > old rubber solution glues.  Of course removing a tire becomes more
|> > of a problem.
|> 
|> If it is a non curing pressure sensitive glue then it is also
|> temperature sensitive.

What I was implying was that it had better performance than traditional
glues in this respect.  However, like Shellac, it isn't a serious contender
for people who wish to make fast tire changes.  Neither leave a sticky
residue for glueing the new tire.  Most pros would receive a wheel
change and a lot of weekend racers seem to hit the sag wagon when they
get a puncture.  Shellacing on tires is a messy process as well. 


David

p.s. I'm sure we'll notice no difference in Moto's results.  Just as well
     there isn't an Intel team !
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 23:43:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing

Tom Kunich writes:

> I would be interested in what you have to say about the very
> different feel of tires like the Michelin HD and the Continental
> GP.

I don't feel a big difference although I find the wear out rates
slightly different.  I used the larger cross section versions and
ride Avocet ROAD (non K and steel bead).  These last plenty long and
have all the other characteristics that appeal to my liking besides
being offered by Avocet free for the testing.

> I have noted that Conti's have a _much_ stiffer ride and have
> written this down to the shape of the tire (Conti's are
> elliptically shaped and Michelins round.)

I don't believe the cross section of the tire is any different from
any other equivalent quality tire.  They are all round.  There is
nothing in the casing that would let it inflate to any other cross
section such as a structural belt or variable cord angle.  The side
walls are no stiffer than the way they feel when deflated and that
isn't much.

> It would seem to me that handlebar mounted accelerometers couldn't
> miss the difference since it is so pronounced.

I think you will see more of such tests with Specialized using such
a measurement to promote their tires and suspension.  It is sad that
Bicycling is so advertising bound that they are afraid to test
anything.  With their budget and staff they could be a leader in
qualifying new products rather than letting the market decide at
great customer cost.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: les@SAIL.Stanford.edu (Les Earnest)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Reply-To: les@cs.stanford.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1993Jan4.180113.16094@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <86149@ut-emx.uucp>
	<C0CyF3.HKq@cs.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 02:33:46 GMT

On the topic of frequent flames aimed at Jobst, Terry Thiel writes:
   Now why would people have this tendency?  Did we all just spontaneously
   decide to flame him?  Could Jobst himself have something to do with this?
   Have you read any of his posts?

The main reason that Jobst gets flamed, aside from the obviously
self-assured tone of his articles, is that he often tweeks some
people's complaisant beliefs.  Such flames simply show that he got to
them.

However, few people learn anything from meta-discussions such as
this one, so I suggest that we let it fade away.
--
Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
From: kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kip Ingram)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:54:27 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Is it my imagination, or is there a group of people on this newgroup that takes
every possible opportunity to engage in a bit of "Jobst bashing"?

It seems like every time Jobst posts something it draws quite a bit of flak.

Kip Ingram
kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:46:39 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver

In article <3450009@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>I think there is a misunderstanding of the concept here.  Pro teams
>don't choose tires on the basis of whether they get glass cuts or
>thorns.

I think there is a misyunderstanding of the concept here.  The Motorola,
Helvetia and Coors Light teams do, in fact, choose some of their
equipment on the basis of factors other than just money(like performance).

Paul Koechli, director sportiff of the Helvetia team told me that he
severed his contract with Campagnolo to use the Dura-Ace index shifting
because he believed that missed shifts were an important consideration
and the Campy, with its Synchro index system, could not get it right.

I could list several other examples, but instead I will expound a little
bit about pro sponsorship.

First off, the type of sponsorship really depends on the product and
to a lesser extent what kind of deal the team wants to make with the supplier
(this is kind of nebulous).  Anyway, for items like sunglasses or
energy bars, the team usually just gets a resonable amount of product
in exchange for sponsorship.

For things like clothing, it depends on the clothier.  Assos, for example,
is quite expensive clothing and the head of their sponsorship program
for the European pro teams(headquartered in Stabio, Switzerland) told
me that they give the pro teams just clothing and no money for sponsorship.

In 1989, Performance was trying to negotiate a deal with Coors Light
to be their clothing supplier.  The deal was clothes plus $50,000.
Coors Light rejected the deal because they did not like the Performance
shorts(another example of rejection of s product based on performance).

Frames are another matter.  One of the deal breakers in the negotiations
to get Greg LeMond on Team 7-Eleven was that LeMond demanded that the
team ride his bikes.  Jim Ochcowicz felt that having Eddy Merckx on their
side in the team car at major races had been an invaluable asset
and he did not want to lose Eddy as a sponsor so Jim said No to LeMond
(as a side note, LeMond chose to ride for Team Z, they ride Team LeMond
bicycles!).

So, it is very simplistic and naive to say that the pros ride whatever
they get paid to ride.  The teams do indeed make decisions based on factors
other than money alone.

>> I have ridden a pair of Contis for over 5 months, no flats, no
>> problems.  (They were pretty dead when I changed them, though).
>
>Your testimonial is a bit ambivalent.  What was the measure by which
>they were "pretty dead".  How many miles did you get on the rear
>tire?

I believe this was meant to be a casual data point.

Bruce
From: kkothman@weber.ucsd.edu (Keith Kothman)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 12 Jan 1993 23:38:02 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

Let's face it--Roger is right.  

I mean, come on, he's God(tm).  He's ridden with National
Team riders.  He's been to Europe.  How could anyone of
us mere mortals know anything that he doesn't?  I'm
going to rush right out and get the widest, deepest tread
tires I can find so that the next time I ride across a 
wet tar patch I won't fall down.

Keith Kothman
kkothman@ucsd.edu

P.S. Roger--  In case you didn't get it....
LIGHTEN UP!  These constant diatribes against
anyone who disagrees with you are boring.  As Jobst would 
say, 

Ride Bike!

And might I add, on any tires that make you happy.
From: chandler@wc.novell.com (Mark Chandler)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:40:06 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc. - Walnut Creek

In article <1993Jan2.022904.21019@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> ianbjor@argon.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Ian D. Bjorhovde) writes:
>In article <3450009@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>>I think there is a misunderstanding of the concept here.  Pro teams
>>don't choose tires on the basis of whether they get glass cuts or
>>thorns.  First off, the roads they race on in Europe have
>>practically none of these hazards and second, they ride the tire
>>that pays them to ride them.  Tires are such an apparently important
>>piece of equipment that I can't imagine a business director would
>>just use one tire over others at the current state of affairs.  I
>>would guess that Continental or Michelin would pick this one up
>>because they are the two big European firms that have taken a great
>>interest in racing.
>
>No kidding, Jobst!  Why do pros use anything?  Because they are
>SPONSORED.  Why did *I* start riding Continentals?  Because they gave my
>team a good deal, as I said in my previous post.  However, many pros
>have been known to use their personal 'favorite' equipment, as I am sure
>that you know, and simply remove the manufacturer's logo.  (To keep
>flames down: Yes, this would be kind of difficult with Contis,
>considering their unique coloring).

In some cases it's not just the logos.  I'm sure anyone who's read
a cycling mag in the last year or so has seen ads proclaiming that
certain pros ride on clinchers, etc.  Well, they don't *always* ride
on clinchers; some pros have sew-up (tubulars) that are made to look
like their clinchers (logo, tread "pattern," etc.).

>--Ian D. Bjorhovde
>  ianbjor@gas.uug.arizona.edu
>  Systems Administrator
>  Unix Users Group, The University of Arizona


--
Mark Chandler                Novell, Inc.           510/975-4522
chandler@wc.novell.com       Walnut Creek, CA       AOL: Crosswords
===================================================================
     The opinions expressed above are mine, not my employer's.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom 
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:17:25 GMT

In article <C0Jq5y.4yz@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) writes:
>  As for comparing different tires on different courses.  Good luck.  To test
>a tire the _only_ reliable way is on a machine.  It has been documented over
>and over than man is a poor judge of anything and when you are riding a bike

Eric, you are speaking for yourself I presume?  Do you really mean to
say that I am a bad judge of tire differences?  Or that Greg LeMonde
doesn't know the difference?

>how do you know what to attribute to the frame, bars, saddle, human flesh,
>tires, wheels, processing in your wetware or external sounds .....?  I am not
>in a mood to go argueing that.  

Only 20 years of racing experience.  How can you argue that?  What are
your credientials?  Or _have_you_ raced on dozens of frames, bars,
tires, etc.?  Please tell us exactly what the basis of your opinion is.

>>I don't believe the cross section of the tire is any different from
>>any other equivalent quality tire.  They are all round.  There is

This thread reminds me of my last few Mt. bike races for team Ritchey.
This was when Tom had just introduced his first tire, which had a dual 
purpose style tread.  Tom wanted the team (Max Jones and myself) to ride 
his tires in a race at China Camp in Marin.  To make a long story short 
we got our doors blown off on every descent, even by guys who never 
descended well.  Max and I were disgusted.  It only took a few races 
before Tom quit insisting that the tires couldn't make much of a 
difference.  Some things are just more obvious than others I
suppose.

Roger Marquis (marquis@netcom.com)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:01:38 GMT

In article <3450017@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>This may be hard for some to take but descending speed is
>not a major advantage in bike racing.

Before someone listens to this claptrap, please remember that LeMond
caught up to Chiapucci's breakaway in the 1990 TdF by descending at
extremely high speed.

And the 1991 (Primavera??) was won by Sean Kelley who overtook the leader
by making a killer descent and then outsprinting him to the line.

Bugno's lack of results up to 1990 was claimed to have been because he
was a slow descender and after his descending improved he finally showed 
world class performance.

While I understood and more or less agree with Jobst about his choice of
tires, this business about descending not being an important skill is
just so much bunk.

Here's the facts: it is _harder_ to make up time down hill because strength
is less important than riding skill and most Pro riders are pretty equal in
that respect. A fall will cost you much more time than a great descent could
possibly make up so most riders leave a little leeway on descents so those
riders who are good descenders and motivated, can make some time on the
descents.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: abba@ntmtv.UUCP (ABBA)
Subject: Re: Racers and Tires
Organization: Who cares?
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:35:05 GMT

Jobst Brandt writes:
> I heard from a friend [...] that Lemond was not a fast descender [...]

So: Lemond is a pro.  A good non-pro friend of Jobst's reports that
    Lemond didn't seem like he could descend very fast.

So Roger Marquis replies:
> I don't think anyone but [Jobst] would contend that pros [...] are not
> the best descenders in the world.


Huh?  First of all, I didn't see where Jobst made such a categorical
statement.  I think you're guilty of deliberately rephrasing what he
said in an over-generalized way in a thinly-disguised way to make him
look stupid.  Or, perhaps, to make you look good or smart or something
very basic like that.  Anyway, I think it makes you come across like a
real (TM) teenager.

While pros, as an identifiable group, probably are among the fastest
descenders in the world, does that necessarily imply that *all* pros
are better descenders than all non-pros?  It seems quite plausible
(even likely) that for most any given pro, there are some non-pros out
there that can at least out-descend them.


ABBA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing

David George writes:

> I feel this is more a reflection on the choice of glue than a
> limitation of tubulars.  A glue such as Evostick contact adhesive
> (favoured by some track riders) won't soften with heat like the
> old rubber solution glues.  Of course removing a tire becomes more
> of a problem.  Tub tape is also quite effective.

If it is a non curing pressure sensitive glue then it is also
temperature sensitive.  As I have mentioned in the past, shellac type
glues as were formerly used for track tires did not have these glue
losses in rolling and did not soften with braking, that
coincidentally didn't occur on track bikes.  Because tires could not
be changes "on the road" this "tipo pista" glue was not used by road
riders and by misunderstanding, also not be most track riders.

> One negative experience I have with clinchers is with blowouts.
> Whereas a tub. remains stuck to the rim and can be ridden on when
> flat a blowout in a clincher tire leaves you maybe descending on a
> couple of ridges of aluminium.  I've had both happen in a road
> race and I know which tire I prefer.

With some rims, using wire bead clinchers, riding a flat also works.
I think that if more professional teams use clinchers, that this is
one aspect they should demand from the rim makers.  It certainly was
mandated by the highway safety commission for automobiles many years
ago.  I hope we don't have to wait for Shimano to make these
advances.  It seems that traditional component manufacturers feel
their job is done while there is plenty to do.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:35:44 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.184006.28888@novell.com> chandler@wc.novell.com (Mark Chandler) writes:
>certain pros ride on clinchers, etc.  Well, they don't *always* ride
>on clinchers; some pros have sew-up (tubulars) that are made to look
>like their clinchers (logo, tread "pattern," etc.).
>--
>Mark Chandler                Novell, Inc.           510/975-4522

I would hope they wouldn't be forced to use clinchers all the time.  For
puncture resistance and hot weather descents clinchers are great but
they don't compare with sew-ups for ride comfort, weight and traction
in the wet.

Roger Marquis
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:08:07 GMT

Can we please remember that this string is discussing tires and
not Jobst's supposed bicycling prowess?

Brandt has stated that tests by Avocet show that treadless tires
have superior performance wet or dry. This same point was made in
VeloNews and other sources, not only by Avocet, but also by Michelin
and Continental. Anyone arguing against this point is simply wrong.

The tire patch size and loading of a bicycle tire is such that tread
can add nothing to the equation.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:03:28 GMT

les@SAIL.Stanford.edu (Les Earnest) writes:
>The main reason that Jobst gets flamed, aside from the obviously
>self-assured tone of his articles, is that he often tweeks some
>people's complaisant beliefs.  Such flames simply show that he got to
>them.

Big difference between self-assured and self-promoting.  Both you and
Jobst seem to believe your every word is written in stone.  And you
are both often rude about expressing this.  I'm not surprised you chose
to defend Jobst.  It's probably what you'd like to believe about 
the reasons for your freqeunt roastings.

>However, few people learn anything from meta-discussions such as
>this one, so I suggest that we let it fade away.
>Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
>Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
>UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022

Now that you got your .02 cents in everyone else should back off? Dream on
Les.
-Terry


-- 
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: stek@amazon.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: New USCF upgrade schedule
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:20:46 GMT

Well I recieved a copy of the new upgrade schedule from the USCF.
It was as advertized by Les a month ago.  I see a lot of good things in
it like minimum race distances and field sizes.  These may have been
in place before, but they have been reinforced by this document.
Also collegiate races can now count for upgrades from 5 to 4.
HOWEVER, the number of points needed to upgrade from 3 to 2 is
excessive.  I doubt that more than 5 people in my district could have
upgraded with this schedule.
There are 2 possible results:
1. the cat 3 fields will fill even faster as fewer riders make it up
to cat 2.
2. The 3 fields will shrink as more 3's give up the sport in frustration.

There is another problem and that is that there will be automatic
downgrading from 2 to 3 andd 3 to 4 for people who do not score points
during a 2 year period.  The USCF will be instituting a record
keeping system that can do this automatically if the Powers that Be
so desire.  I think this is really bad in that it will drive from the
sport those riders who race in support of teammates, take time off
for school, work, family, who are forced out due to illness or injury.
We want to get more people into the sport not drive them from it.

I am sure I am going to get flames for this, so I will state my
background.  I race cat 3, though I have no expectation of
upgrading soon.  I enjoy riding in support of teammates more than
going for placings myself.  It bothers me greatly that the placings
I helped people get have been devalued.  I will probably quit the
sport if I am downgraded to cat 4 and I will probably not race in
1994 as I will be trying to finish my thesis.

Finally, did anyone know that these changes were in the works?  i only
herd about it through Les's posts.  Where is our representation?

Paul Stek
President Boston Road Club
Stek@pfc.mit.edu

Opps "herd" should be "heard" up there.  Coffee isn't working yet.