HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: enag@ifi.uio.no (Erik Naggum)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: ISO Documents Cause OSI Failure?
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:55:31 GMT
Organization: Department of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway

Ralph Mackiewicz <ics.ralph@Control.Com> writes:
|
|   I agree that it is a shame that ISO documents are not free and that the
|   issue of tampering is cop-out excuse.

Did I say that in the article I said I would regret posting?  The issue
is _fear_ of tampering.  That's a concern with anybody who publishes
anything and lets other people redistribute it freely.  Whether it's
a real issue or not cannot be established, it's a null hypothesis in the
face of complete lack of data points, and whether you _think_ it isn't
an issue is completely irrelevant -- it isn't you who decide ISO policy.

The much more real issue is ISO's desire for a copyright, and they can
have any goddamn reason they wish for wanting to maintain copyright on
the standards.  They're theirs, and they make decisions about them.
It's that simple.  Whether you reject their reasons or not doesn't have
anything to do with it.  They still have the copyright, and they still
use whatever legal resources they can to fight infringers.  This works,
and ISO has gotten their policy decisions reinforced thereby.

In other words, you need more powerful argumentation for ISO to change
their policies than "I want it, and don't want to buy it" and "it's a
shame they aren't free".  People who own copyright in something shy away
from you if you start using such arguments when requesting copies of
their stuff.  Instead, fund ISO by other means, convince them that "ISO
standard" won't have its value and prestige depleted by numerous copies
of dubious integrity, and you may get what you want.

|   All standards organizations charge a fee for distribution of standards

ECMA sends you their standards for free.  Members of ECMA pay for this
through their annual fees.

|   I believe that OSI products do not sell well because there are not
|   many people ACTIVELY selling well.  If you contact most PLC mfgs and
|   ask for an MMS/OSI connection you will be lucky if they know what
|   you are talking about.  More likely they will try to convince you
|   that the proprietary solution is better, cheaper, etc.  The same is
|   true for many computer manufacturers.  The only users that receive
|   an active sales pitch for OSI technology are those that insist on
|   it.

I agree with this.

Best regards,
</Erik>
--
Erik Naggum             |  ISO  8879 SGML     |      +47 295 0313
                        |  ISO 10744 HyTime   |
<erik@naggum.no>        |  ISO 10646 UCS      |      Memento, terrigena.
<enag@ifi.uio.no>       |  ISO  9899 C        |      Memento, vita brevis.
From: ossi@caip.rutgers.edu (Althea Ossi)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: Archive site for docs?
Date: 20 Aug 92 04:15:11 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

enag@ifi.uio.no (Erik Naggum) writes:

>ASN.1 is really a quite simple and neat specification, once you get
>through the language barrier that all ISO standards and CCITT
>recommendations suffer from, but the BER is evil, both in specification
>and in practice.  CCITT is said to suffer to "bitophobia" (abnormal fear
>of wasted bits), and rather thinks that by the time anyone actually
>implements ASN.1 BER, the computers won't notice the overhead in
>unwinding the BER integer and floating-point formats.  (Sorry, this is
>getting out of hand.)

The "bitophobia" exhibited by CCITT is quite justified.  There are 
existing applications that are forced to operate with a very small
bandwidth (e.g., cellular radio control, ground to aircraft control, etc.)
and thus cannot afford to waste a single bit.  Indeed, it is a demonstrated
need by several sectors of industry that has lead to the development
of the Packed Encoding Rules of ASN.1 (PER).  PER exhibits a far more
severe case of "bitophobia" than BER even dreamt of, but satisfies the
needs of those applications that find BER too verbose.

=====================================|========================================
Bancroft Scott			     |		Open Systems Solutions, Inc.
609-987-9073			     |		Princeton, N.J.
=====================================|========================================
From: vera@fanaraaken.Stanford.EDU (James S. Vera)
Subject: Re: Archive site for docs?
Organization: Program Analysis and Verification Group, Stanford University
Date: 19 Aug 92 06:54:35 GMT

enag@ifi.uio.no (Erik Naggum) writes:


>ISO standards are copyright by the International Organization for
>Standardization.  ISO depends on the proceeds from the sale of the
>standards to cover their operating costs.  They also maintain that
>electronic copies can get out of control, i.e. be tampered with and
>destroy the credibility of ISO standards, and to the advancement of the
>tamperer's causes, such as a company which isn't able to conform 100% to
>the requirements, and slightly modifies them, or removes the trickiest
>ones.  ISO standards are available from ISO headquarters in Geneva, or
>from your national ISO member body (ANSI in the U.S.).  ISO standards
>are not government publications, either.

While the above is certainly ISO's policy on the matter, it is an
unfortunately policy which is contributing to OSI's failure in the
marketplace. The free exchange of standards documents provides a
springboard for the development of compatible products.  As for the
danger of tampering, this is nonsense.  What do you think would happen
to a producer of a TCP/IP product which didn't interoperate with the
net?  Claims that their spec document was defective aren't going to
buy them a thing.  If ISO provided the documents online, the quality
ftp cites would carry them and no problems would occur.

>In summary, you should expect to spend a small amount of the money you
>save from your net.access on paper documents.

Not a small amount from what I recall.  Certainly not for a college
student seeking to explore.

James S. Vera      |         Internet           |Standard Disclaimers
Stanford University|   vera@anna.stanford.edu   |Blah Blah Blah Blah
+1.415.723.1089    |    FAX +1.415.725.7398     |


Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: a2824as@cd1.lrz-muenchen.de (Michael Storz)
Subject: Re: Request Update on CLNP Echo function
Reply-To: Michael.Storz@lrz.lrz-muenchen.dbp.de
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum Muenchen, Germany
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:54:37 GMT

In article <5560107@hpindda.cup.hp.com>, tozz@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Bob Tausworthe) writes:
|> A couple of years ago I was attending the IETF-OSI Working Group chaired
|> by Rob Hagens and helped to define an Echo function for CLNP (ISO 8473).
|> This work eventually became RFC1139, "An Echo Function for ISO 8473".
|> 
|> This RFC lists two possible methods to implement an Echo function which
|> would be suitable for "ping" type functionality for ISO. The first was
|> an interim solution requiring special N-Sel values in the NSAP. The second
|> was a more robust solution which essentially expands the ISO 8473 spec to
|> include Echo NPDUs. 
|> 
|> As I recall, someone at the Working Group session agreed to propose this
|> to ANSI X3S3.3, and eventually/hopefully to ISO as well for inclusion in
|> a future version of 8473.
|> 
|> I have two questions:
|> 
|> 	1) Can anybody update be as to the status of getting an Echo 
|> 	   function added ISO 8473?
|> 
|>         2) Has anybody incorporated RFC1139 into their OSI protocol
|> 	   suite? if so which solution?

Control Data has implemented RFC1139 in their OSI network called CDCNET 
(terminal servers, routers and gateways) and their CD4000 workstations. 
Both solutions are supported. They implemented in addition a command 
osiping which is modelled after the normal ping. 

Sun supports the special NSAP solution. 

What's about HP? We don't run OSI on our HP systems, therefore I don't know
(but would be interested to know).

|> 
|> Thanx in advance
|> 
|> 			   Bob Tausworthe
|> 			   Hewlett Packard
|> 			   408-447-2873
|> 			   tozz@cup.hp.com
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> My opinions are my own. If my company ever has one, I'll let you know.

-- 

Michael Storz
================================================================================
                                      !   X.400 : G=michael;S=storz;OU1=lrz;
   Leibniz-Rechenzentrum              !           P=lrz-muenchen;A=dbp;C=de
   Barer Str. 21                      !   RFC822: storz@lrz.lrz-muenchen.dbp.de
   8000 Muenchen 2                    !   Fax   : ++ 49 89 2809460
   Germany                            !   Tel   : ++ 49 89 2105 7420
================================================================================
From: tozz@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Bob Tausworthe)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 01:36:30 GMT
Subject: Request Update on CLNP Echo function
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso

A couple of years ago I was attending the IETF-OSI Working Group chaired
by Rob Hagens and helped to define an Echo function for CLNP (ISO 8473).
This work eventually became RFC1139, "An Echo Function for ISO 8473".

This RFC lists two possible methods to implement an Echo function which
would be suitable for "ping" type functionality for ISO. The first was
an interim solution requiring special N-Sel values in the NSAP. The second
was a more robust solution which essentially expands the ISO 8473 spec to
include Echo NPDUs. 

As I recall, someone at the Working Group session agreed to propose this
to ANSI X3S3.3, and eventually/hopefully to ISO as well for inclusion in
a future version of 8473.

I have two questions:

	1) Can anybody update be as to the status of getting an Echo 
	   function added ISO 8473?

        2) Has anybody incorporated RFC1139 into their OSI protocol
	   suite? if so which solution?

Thanx in advance

			   Bob Tausworthe
			   Hewlett Packard
			   408-447-2873
			   tozz@cup.hp.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions are my own. If my company ever has one, I'll let you know.
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: hta@boheme.er.sintef.no (Harald Tveit Alvestrand)
Subject: Re: iso papers
Reply-To: harald.alvestrand@delab.sintef.no
Organization: SINTEF DELAB, Norway
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 19:41:27 GMT

I quote from the FAQ, which was not sent out last month because of a bug
in the upgrade procedures for my OS:

4) Where can I FTP the X.400 standards?
=======================================

Officially, you can't.
The OSI community has a large number of organizations that derive
revenue from *selling* copies of these standards.

The CCITT, not being funded in that way, made an experiment in which
they made all the CCITT documents available for anonymous FTP, but
that experiment terminated on December 31, 1991, to be replaced by a
service run out of the ITU offices in Geneva at some later date.

The net result is that there are a lot of electronic copies out there,
but it is not legal to make them available for anonymous FTP after
December 31, 1991.

Note: This applies ONLY to the CCITT documents; ISO standards have
never been put on the network.


-- 
                   Harald Tveit Alvestrand
Harald.Alvestrand@delab.sintef.no
C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=sintef;OU=delab;S=alvestrand;G=harald
+47 7 59 70 94
From: hoschka@tom.inria.fr (Philipp Hoschka )
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Non-OSI use of ASN.1 (was: Archive site for docs?)
Keywords: ASN.1, OSI
Date: 20 Aug 92 09:09:59 GMT
Organization: INRIA

In article <EICHIN.92Aug19032948@tsx-11.mit.edu>, eichin@athena.mit.edu (Mark W. Eichin) writes:
...

> 	Thanks for your patience. I suspect these questions are coming
> up more often (from American developers, at least) due to the growing
> use of SNMP, RSA PEM, and Kerberos version 5, specifications for which
> are freely available yet which rest on ASN.1 in particular which is
> not.

This gave me the idea for a quick survey of current ASN.1 use. 

The aim is to come up with a list of projects  (i.e. standards, private 
implementation projects etc.) that use ASN.1, but do not belong to the "classic" 
OSI upper layer standards. Things to be included in this list are e.g. SNMP, 
RSA PEM (what is this ?), Kerberos, and I remember someone at Thinking Machines was
working on a WAIS implementation that uses ASN.1 (this would be a 'private project'). 

This would give valuable feedback to ASN.1 compiler writers as to what
applications their compilers should aim at. Also, it would give an indication
to how "successfull" ASN.1 has been up to now outside its originally intended OSI
scope (quite successful, apparently, if it even made it to RFC's :-)).

The following questionaire might help you to describe the project. You may add further
points, of course. You can describe stuff you just heard/read about, or projects you did
yourself.

Name of project:

Short description of the project:

Documents describing the project:

For what specific purpose is ASN.1 used:

Any ASN.1 macros used:

Difficulties experienced when using ASN.1:

Which ASN.1 compiler was used:

In order to prune duplicates: 
PLEASE REPLY directly TO ME, I'll summarize (hoschka@sophia.inria.fr)
From: asp@trail.sharpstone.com (Alexandre Sasha Polozoff)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Using one syntax for more than one attribute - comments?
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 20:23:30 CST
Organization: Sharpstone Trail Productions - Austin Texas USA
Reply-To: asp@trail.sharpstone.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v4

We are having an rather simple dilemma which I would like some comments
from others.

The grammar may not be complete, just as an example.

Consider we have a syntax as follows:

aSyntaxForNames :: = GraphicString

Now we have two attribute templates which are going to both use the
same syntax.

userName	ATTRIBUTE
	WITH SYNTAX		Our_syntax.aSyntaxForNames
	etc...


computerName   ATTRIBUTE
	WITH SYNTAX		Our_syntax.aSyntaxForNames
	etc...

== OR ==

We could have two syntaxes

userNameSyntax ::= GraphicString
computerNameSyntax ::= GraphicString

and reference these syntaxes instead.

Comments?  Ideas?  We can't decide which way is (so to speak) better
or more correct than another way.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Polozoff      512/218-1178       Internet    asp@trail.sharpstone.com
Sharpstone Trail Productions          Compuserve  73467,252
Austin, Texas USA                     OSI Network Management Products
From: joflhrty@vax1.tcd.ie
Subject: ODA Information required
Organization: Trinity College Dublin
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:37:59 GMT

Subject: ODA

hi,

 This is probably not the right forum but does anyone know here I could get
information about the ODA standard.

Thanks in Advance


Jerome O'Flaherty
From: ag129@cl.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: ODA Information required
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:36:56 GMT
Reply-To: ag129@cl.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant)
Organization: U of Cambridge Comp Lab, UK

In article <1992Aug13.203759.1@vax1.tcd.ie> joflhrty@vax1.tcd.ie writes:
> This is probably not the right forum but does anyone know here I could get
>information about the ODA standard.
>
>Jerome O'Flaherty

ODA (Open Document Architecture) is ECMA 101. It has been adopted as
CCITT T.410, and as ISO 8613 (the latter under its original title of 
Office Document Architecture). It is a standard for describing various
features of the structure of a document, in both its revisable
(editable) and presentation (formatted) forms.

For an introduction see the article in "IEEE Computer", October 1985.

To some extent SGML (and associated standards like DSSSL and HyTime)
are making it less likely that ODA will become universal, though it
is certainly being used here and there. (Anyone know of any major users
of, or applications for, ODA?)
--
Alasdair Grant, Mainframe Systems Group / Small Systems Integration Group
Cambridge University, UK
World Tiddlywinks Ranking: 36
From: jh@etana.funet.fi (Juha Heinanen)
Subject: Re: Request Update on CLNP Echo function
Organization: Finnish University and Research Network
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:21:01 GMT

To my understanding ISO folks in their June meeting more or less
adopted the long term solution of RFC1139 and will publish it as an
International Standard.  RFC1139 will then become obsolate.  Already
now the short term solution (eg. as implemented by Sun) should be
highly discouraged.
--
--	Juha Heinanen, FUNET, Finland, jh@funet.fi, +358 49 500958
-- 
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: newsham@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu (Timothy Newsham)
Subject: iso papers
Organization: University of Engineering, College of Engineering
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 20:52:22 GMT

I didnt see a FAQ, please forgive me if this is a faq type
question and there is one...

I would like to get electronic copies of ISO documents,
is there any ftp site with them online?  In particular
I need the two reguarding HDLC (iso 3309-1979 and the
3309:1984 addendum).   Replies via email would be 
appreciated..
                          ...
From: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: ASN.1 & BER online?
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:11:20 GMT
Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen, Germany

The file ASN.1.ps.Z on ftp.uni-erlangen.de in pub/doc/ISO/english
contains an introductory text about ASN.1 and the basic encoding rules.

The only source for the official definition are the ISO and/or CCITT
documents (currently not officially available on the net).

Markus

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -=-=- University of Erlangen, Germany
Internet: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de  |  X.500 entry available
-A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't-
-even know existed can render your own computer unusable. (Leslie Lamport)-
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: jccw@poobah.mitre.org (John C. C. White)
Subject: Alternative Encoding Rules
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:39:15 GMT

I seem to recall that there was some work going on regarding
alternatives to the Basic Encoding Rules (BER), to provide a
more compact (or at least different) transfer syntax. Can anyone 
point me to some documents or people that can bring me up to
speed on this?  Or tell me that I'm dreaming, and BER is all
anyone will ever need?

John White
MITRE Bedford, Mass
jccw@mitre.org
From: ics.ralph@Control.Com (Ralph Mackiewicz)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: ISO Documents Cause OSI Failure?
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:49:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: Control.y1oTPB1w164w
Reply-To: ics.ralph@control.com
Organization: Industrial Computing Society

Jim,
I agree that it is a shame that ISO documents are not free and that the
issue of tampering is cop-out excuse.  However, the fact that you have
to pay for a standard may restrict its use in university but this is
clearly not the reason for the currently small market for OSI products.
All standards organizations charge a fee for distribution of standards
including IEEE which has written some of the most widely used standards
in existence.  I believe that OSI products do not sell well because there
are not many people ACTIVELY selling well.  If you contact most PLC mfgs
and ask for an MMS/OSI connection you will be lucky if they know what you
are talking about.  More likely they will try to convince you that the
proprietary solution is better, cheaper, etc.  The same is true for many
computer manufacturers.  The only users that receive an active sales pitch
for OSI technology are those that insist on it.
Ralph Mackiewicz
SISCO, Inc.
6605 19-1/2 Mile Road
Sterling Heights, MI 48314-1408 USA
Tel: 313-254-0020, Fax: 313-254-0053
Internet: 2943439@mcimail.com (access is via MCI Mail)
ICSnet: ics.ralph@ics.org
From: enag@ifi.uio.no (Erik Naggum)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: Archive site for docs?
Date: 18 Aug 92 23:04:25 GMT
Organization: Department of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway

I guess we need an "ISO standards FAQ" with this question answered and
mailed weekly to a number of newsgroups.

ISO standards are copyright by the International Organization for
Standardization.  ISO depends on the proceeds from the sale of the
standards to cover their operating costs.  They also maintain that
electronic copies can get out of control, i.e. be tampered with and
destroy the credibility of ISO standards, and to the advancement of the
tamperer's causes, such as a company which isn't able to conform 100% to
the requirements, and slightly modifies them, or removes the trickiest
ones.  ISO standards are available from ISO headquarters in Geneva, or
from your national ISO member body (ANSI in the U.S.).  ISO standards
are not government publications, either.

CCITT recommendations are copyright by the Comite Consultatif
International de Telegraphique et Telephonique.  CCITT publishes all its
recommendations every four years.  The last complete publication was in
1988, with the Blue Book.  The next edition is probably the White Book,
in 1992, but not available until sometime in 1994 or 1995, due to
printing and distribution constraints.  CCITT recommendations are
available from CCITT headquarters in Geneva, or from your local telecom
regulatory body.

You won't find documents from either of these organizations available
for FTP anywhere, at least not anywhere where the law is respected.

In summary, you should expect to spend a small amount of the money you
save from your net.access on paper documents.

Best regards,
</Erik>
--
Erik Naggum             |  ISO  8879 SGML     |      +47 295 0313
                        |  ISO 10744 HyTime   |
<erik@naggum.no>        |  ISO 10646 UCS      |      Memento, terrigena.
<enag@ifi.uio.no>       |  ISO  9899 C        |      Memento, vita brevis.
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: dhesi@cirrus.com (Rahul Dhesi)
Subject: Re: Archive site for docs?
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:20:13 GMT

In <23311C@erik.naggum.no> enag@ifi.uio.no (Erik Naggum) writes:

>...it would be a simple matter for one
>vendor to edit out the hardest parts to implement, increase an error
>margin, or whatever, and to supply the customers with this copy.  This
>would be much easier if they were electronically available...

Hmmm...have you ever tried running "diff", "sum", "crc", "md4", or
"brik" on documents printed on paper?
-- 
Rahul Dhesi <dhesi@cirrus.com>
also: dhesi@rahul.net
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.snmp
From: r2hmv@akronvm.bitnet
Subject: Snmp X applications
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:26:27 GMT

Does anybody out there know of a public domain snmp application built
with X window interface ?? Ideally we would like X based CMU library
applications.
 
Thanks,
 
Hari                  r2hmv@akronvm.bitnet
From: davidson@gdwest.gd.com (Richard Davidson)
Subject: Input on SNMP Management System
Organization: General Dynamics Corp.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:18:27 GMT

We are in the process of looking for a good SNMP management system.
Some of the products we are looking at are Lexcel/Lance +,Hughes/
Monet, SunNet Manager, HP/OpenView, Wollongong/Management Station,
UB/NetDirector. Looking for comments good/bad about any of these 
products or recommendations on any others. We have Cisco routers, Wellfleet 
routers, UB Access/1 & bridges, Xyplex & Dec servers, ODS & Synoptics	
concentrators, Kinetics Fast/Path, Cayman Gatorboxes, 3Com servers.
Any comments would be appreciated!
-- 
Rich Davidson
CSC-TMD-WC (619) 573-3797, (619) 573-3161/FAX
PO Box 939011 MZ W1-5360 * San Diego CA 92193-9011
davidson@gdwest.gd.com
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.snmp
From: nicholas@cton.cton.com (Nick Hennenfent)
Subject: rs232 serial port mib?
Keywords: rs232 serial port mib
Organization: Computone, Corp.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 20:33:35 GMT

Is there a mib available for serial ports (in re terminal servers).

Where can I obtain same?


Nick Hennenfent    "Envision whirled peas"
Computone   1100 Northmeadow Parkway   Suite 150   Roswell, GA 30076
VOICE (404) 475-2725 x362    FAX (404) 343-9735


-- 
Nick Hennenfent
Computone
1100 Northmeadow Parkway
Suite 150