X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:40:45 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Heaven,

Excerpts from christia: 30-Sep-92 Re: Heaven, Stephen Kingston@ABER.AC (4602)

> > ...Paul never said, however, that deeds played no part
> > in this -- besides the fact that Paul is speaking of the Jewish law, and
> > James is speaking of Christian good deeds of charity.  Paul never said
> > we were saved by faith _alone_.

>  "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it
> is the gift of God:  Not of works, lest any man should boast."
> --Paul (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Again, this says we are saved through faith, and not by works -- it does
not say that we are saved by faith ALONE.  Unless you are of course
reading Luther's Bible, where he saw fit to add the word "alone" in this
verse.

Paul denies that justification is by works.  So do I.  Paul affirms that
justification is through faith.  So do I.   Paul does NOT say that good
deeds are not necessary to complete faith.  James says that they are.
Paul does NOT say that justification is by faith _alone_.  Justification
is by faith first, and completed by good deeds, by love, by charity.

Again, I state: Paul never said that justification was by faith _alone_.
 He said it was by faith, which is true, because it is not by works of
the law.

Excerpts from christia: 30-Sep-92 Re: Heaven, Stephen Kingston@ABER.AC (4602)

> > Paul tells us in Philippians to "work out our salvation with fear and
> > trembling" (NIV).  Not sure that assurance is justified here.

> Read Romans 8 and see how assured Paul is of salvation.

Paul is not assured that when he dies he will still be in Christ.  He
may be assured that at this point he is in Christ Jesus, but he makes no
judgment concerning his final state.

"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ
Jesus . . ."

This assumes one STAYS in Christ Jesus.   According to 1 John, one stays
in Christ Jesus by obeying Christ's commands.  In Romans 8, Paul says
that we only hope for salvation: "[W]e ourselves, who have the
firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our
adoption as sons, the redemption o four bodies. For in this hope we were
saved.  But hope that is seen is no hope at all.  Who hopes for what he
already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it
patiently." v24f.  Interestingly enough, this says that we are NOT YET
ADOPTED SONS.  We hope for this adoption, not because we have it, but
precisely because we do not have it.

I see no reason to believe that Paul is speaking of assurance of
salvation here, in the sense that we can know that we will be saved when
we die.

> > Do you deny that they can [disown you], or will if you behave wickedly
> enough?

> Yes, I deny it. I do not know of anything I could do to stop my parents
> from loving me. I do not know of any act which could stop that love. I
> can dissapoint
> them and provoke them to anger, but I can never stop their love.

I am not speaking of love, I am speaking of sonship.  God loves even
those he condemns. But he saves only those who love him and remain in
him. Rom 11:22, Col 1:23.  "This is how we know we are in him: Whoever
claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." 1 John 2:6.

> > How do you understand the parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew
> > 25:21ff?

> Actually it is Matthew 25:32ff

31ff.  Slipped a finger.

> Simply put, I believe the sheep are the elect of God, being those who are
> saved by his grace, and justified by faith. The goats are everyone else.

That's not what it says.

> The goats may have done good works too, but those works will not save
> them because the goal of all such works were selfish. It is only when we
> know that doing or not doing works has absolutely no effect on our final
> destination that we can truly do works unselfishly, and thus glorify God in
> those works.

The goats did NOT do good works, no good works are mentioned in the
parable attributable to the goats.

Eric