From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re:  The Question of Culture
Date: 27 Dec 92 04:14:35 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.arabic
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1hj5reINNie6@function.mps.ohio-state.edu> hermi@function.mps.ohio-state.edu (Lotfi Hermi) writes:


> Not true and I challenge you to produce any schredd of evidence that Arabs
> thought Turks as animals

I'm sorry to disappoint you but

1. I clearly said 'excessive Nasserite rhetoric'.
2. I'm in no mood to check Turkish newspapers dating back to the
1950's


> it is the western  dicease and envy that still 
> eats your heart and tries to separate the Turks from their natural extention,
> the Muslims, and the Arabs with whom they share a good proportion of their 
> history.

Turks are still Muslims. They're still a part of humanity and the
Islamic world. But I don't think they want to be anyone's patsy.

As far as people's hearts being eaten out, this is not the
place to play parlor psychology. So far I've refrained as
much as I can.


> I challenge you to produce evidence for such hatred statements, it is 
> evident you don't understand neither our deen nor our culture.  Every muslim
>arab or ajam says the supplication of benediction to Muhammad and Aal Muhammad
> for the bounty that Allah gave them through this prophet.   

One more time. I hate to give up on challenges.

	**************
From minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas) Fri Dec 25 00:47:20 1992

This is what we muslims must say at the end of our prayers,
attahiyatu lillahi wa-s-salawatu wa-t-tayyibatu. assalamu alaika ayyohan-
nabiyyu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. assalamu alaina wa ala ibad-illah
wa-as-salihin. ash-hadu an la ilaha illa-llahu wa ash-hadu anna muhammadan
abduhu wa rasuluh.
allahuma salli ala muhammadin wa ala ali muhammad kama sallait ala ibrahima
wa ala ale ibrahima innaka hamidun majid.
rabbi ja'alni mukimu-s-salati wa minzuriyati rabban wa takabal dua rabana
aghfirli wa li walidaya wa lil-muminina yauma yaqumu-l-hisab.
assalam alaikum.

From mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) Wed Dec 23 10:49:49 1992
  You got the text wrong. It is:

  "Allahumma Salli `ala MuHammas wa `ala aali MuHammad kama sallayta `ala aali
   Ibraheem; wa baarik `ala MuHammad wa `ala aali MuHammad kama baarakta `ala
   aali Ibraheem"

  "God, bestow your praise on Muhammad and on the people of Muhammad like you
   have bestowed your praise on the people of Ibrahim; and bless Muhammad
   and the people of Muhammad like you have blessed the people of Ibrahim"
	******************

One interpretation says 'people' of Mohammad and Ibrahim. Another
offered 'family'.  I now challenge you to explain what business
Ibrahim has in these prayers.  Where is Jesus and where is Moses?

I now challenge you  to give YOUR INTERPRETATION--obviously
the only correct one--from which you seem to refrain.


> 
> Arab never and will never think of Turkish domination as that of a 
> foreign force, and I challenge you to produce a shred of evidence from histo-
> rical books about that era.  Turks entered Arab politics because they have 
> been there through out,  Since the Abbasides.

Ajami means foreigner or not? If it means Persian, than better
think up another word for Turks. They're not Persian.


> Among which is the spread of lies, and the work of propaganda.

We are in agreement here. Work of propaganda, especially among
poor and illiterate people for personal gain is abominable.

This was mine:
> I think there's a little confusion here. Western culture is certainly
> ethnocentric if by culture you  mean only clothes, food, music, poetry
> and the like. On the other hand a lot of its products are universal. 
> This universality is not dependent on the cultural and geographical
> area in which it was developed. It withstands the test of flow of time
> and change in geographical space. It is this part of western culture
> that  was hegemonistic for a while. And whose fault is that ? The
> Ottoman reactionaries refused to take it. Now, it seems a foregone
> conclusion, that even the most illiterate priest cannot fight against,
> that science is a good idea and is universal. I don't find any other
> kind of 'truth' to be as universal as that. Do you ?

This is yours:
> What did it offer to the world, subjugation and dominance.  The French
> used to dump their waste and garbage by the Somali shores, while talking 
> about the environment, and while the famine was raging there.  As long as
> things do not touch their society, things are fine and they talk about 
> international achievements... and bla bla bla...

I am unable to understand your reasoning. Is or is not Science
a universal truth ? Or is there such a thing as Islamic Science,
Hindu Science, Jewish Science ?

Knowledge is, has been, and will be a two-edged sword. If fire
could be used to keep warm, it can also be used to burn your
neighbor's hut. This was probably the earliest discovery.

So, the westerners who started the scientific revolution used
it to dominate others. Is this supposed to be great insight?

Where did I say they did not? Have you not read any of my posts
on imperialism ? Do you think everyone on USENET is an ignoramus ?

Now, what exactly is your point?

>western, be it local or universal, be it religious, or secular...etc.  I guess
> you don't know that the ground for the Western cultural revolution of the 
> middle ages were but a continuation of the Work of Muslim spain.  

You're confusing me again. I said that the answers to to problems
of a modern society--and specifically mentioned economics--cannot
be found in 7th century Arabia. Now you're telling me Muslim Spain
was great. Where and when did I say it wasn't ? 

The problem seems to be your indulgence in binary thinking. Either
all bad or all good. I don't feel compelled to defend everything
that every Turk ever did as being good. Neither do I accept the view put
forth by some that every thing Turks did was bad or evil.

Why is it necessary for you to defend all Arab history as perfect,
without fault, lacking nothing, and having everything ?

Would you please read my post and yours and see if you can
make a better connection, Mr. Hermi.

>But I guess
> your hatred to all what is Islamic, and every thing that has a flavor from
> the Arabic culture is abviously void from your thinking.   For me this 
> discussion is over, for I have better things to do in life.  

There goes your binary thinking again.

The Frenchmen don't want to live in 7th century France. Germans
don't want to live in 7th century Germany. Russians don't. etc etc.

Why are you still insisting that for someone to say that life in 7th
century Arabia was not better than today is hatred of Arab culture?
Excuse me but I like airconditioners, and cars, and TV's and
stereos, and democracy. I don't like excessive heat and treeless
deserts :-)..

Who said anything about everything in Arabic culture? Everyone 
has his/her own culture and for everyone his/her culture is great.
 Notwithstanding this chauvistic attitude, most people have enough 
common sense to change as the times change.

Perhaps you're trying too hard to convince everyone to live like the
Bedouins of the 7th century.


> Lotfi

1. A little reflection on what is posted is always a good idea.
2. It's a mistake to think that everyone is as knowledgeable or
as ignorant as yourself.
-- 

	mark	

   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey    
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