From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Re: frontrubs
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:53:05 GMT

In <1992Nov6.003043.2765@ultb.isc.rit.edu> cms2839@ultb.isc.rit.edu (a.stranger) writes:

>				we've all heard of smileys . that
>doesn't change the fact that the " i can't control myself because i'm a
>sexually charged male " is *still* being used to justify rape . i chose
>to take to point seriously ( *not* lecture ; my statement that " i agree
>with cathy " is hardly lecturing ! ) because of this . the statement is
>neither original , nor particularly funny , IMHO , but deserves some
>comment .

OK now you are making a claim.  Let's analyze it together.  Your are
claiming here (correct me if I am wrong) that because of sexual abuse,
all sexual jokes referring to misuse of sex should be ruled out.  I assume this
refers to movies that joke about sex, because sex is indeed a serious
subject and could easily get out of hand if moviemakers treat it lightly.
This of course must refer to murders as well since murder is a very
serious subject and must be treated with respect.  Therefore all jokes,
movies, books that take murder lightly must be banned. We should also
extend this to other moral problems such as stealing, bank robberies
for instance, and religion since these are serious issues.  Therefore
all jokes, movies, books, novels, etc. referring to a misuse of these
subjects should be banned.  No murders, no stealing, no jokes about
priests, no jokes about mother-in-laws...

Should I go on? :-)

I am afraid that in your attempt to control the biological drives of
people into a "nice" format that all can be happy with, would do away
with most of the thrill and intrigue involved in sex.

OF COURSE FORCED SEX IS WRONG.  But do you really believe that this
statement alone, will suddenly eliminate the wild male sexual drives
derived from years of evolutionary selection driven by the need to reproduce.  
(I  should clarify that libido is different in different males as it is
in different woman, and one can easily have a more sexually charged
female as compared to another male.  It also changes with age).

What I am saying is that one has to engage in realism.  It is not
realistic to fill a room full of naked people and place in it a
western educated male with healthy sex drive (as opposed to an African
warrior who has grown up naked all of his life) and expect him NOT
to be arroused, because it is the nice thing to do.  If you put
a young Victorian male, who grew up with looking at ankles as sexual
objects, and place him in a modern beach scene, he would be horny
like hell.  Sex is in the mind and there are many irrational aspects
to it.

It is not realistic to bring a western male into a female's room, have
her undress and then be surprised if he tries to coerce her into sex,
AS WRONG AS THAT IS. In legal circles they call this entrapment when
there is an intent of catching the person.  RAPE is wrong on any account 
as is robbery.  But just as I would not invite a stranger into my house
with jewels lying around, so precautions should be taken against rape,
AS NICE AS IT WOULD BE TO INVITE ANYONE IN AND HAVE A NUDIST BACKRUBBING
PARTY.

>				i guess i should clarify that total body
>massages are fairly commonplace among a group of my friends and i . if
>you're at all used to being naked with other people ( we're naturists )
>, it really isn't particularly sexually stimulating . nudists quickly
>unlearn the decidedly western notion that mere nudity should be
>titilation .

Yes I've seen that happen and there is no problem with it.  But I
have seen it happen after much sexual activity behind the scenes
or sometimes right at nudist camps.  I suggest you read rec.nude
if you have not done so already.  Males may act and say that they are
not titilated (an unfortunate pun) but many in fact are, until after years
of regular exposure.

By the way your claims do not adress WHEN sex actually comes to mind.
If you think that it can be switched on and off at will, you are
also mistaken.  Sexual drives, as studies have shown, can be a highly
irrational drive.

>				really , in a full body massage , you
>can't *not* massage any part of a person's body , or you're just calling
>attention to it ! you simply treat all skin equally .

Wonderfully platonic and rational.  Unfortunately, it is not realistic.
Sex is one of the most talked about sujects in any society.  Guess
why?  Not because it is the last thing on people's mind.

And although it should not matter about my qulifications, and my statements
should be judged on their own merit, I have been happily married, with a woman
who recognizes the realities of sexual drives that have nothing to do
with love at times, for many years now.

>-- 
>       @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>       @       "Imagination keeps the shadows away  -  Xymox       @
>       @~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@
>       @ a.stranger - CMS2839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu - PGP key on req. @
--
Eli Chiprout
Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
emc@doe.carleton.ca                                     
"Je ne peut etre sauf qui je suis"