From: rdh@veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: VERITAS Software
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:45:39 GMT

In article <robert.712351700@labyrinth> uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.ucar.EDU (Robert Coleman) writes:
>histlib@erich.triumf.ca (Mary Olin) writes:
>
>>In article <14odc7INN7s6@agate.berkeley.edu>, uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Coleman) writes...
>
>>>	It's very easy to look at "the enemy" and see only their
>>>advantages, maybe you'll find that our progress isn't very
>>>different, that our problems are linked to your problems, and our
>>>problems are worth your time for that reason if nothing else.
>
>>I, personally, have found your point of view very appealing, Robert.
>>I would love to be able to consider myself a humanist rather than a
>>feminist. It looks as though your basic point is that if one group in
>>a society is oppressed, all are oppressed, and I agree. It is
>>important for us to be aware of the effects of inequality on those
>>who are seen as the dominant group.
>
>	Though I agree that what you've said is true, it isn't quite
>my basic point.  You're still focussing on women as "oppressed",
>making men "oppressed by side effect".
>	I step back one step further than that.  The system oppresses
>both of us.  It makes it difficult or impossible for either of us to
>have free choice about the way we want to spend our lives.  It forces
>both of us to try to shoehorn into a stereotype that may not fit our
>personality or our desires; it makes us both unhappy.

I agree with this, but I also support the view that people should be
free to decide for themselves what issues they choose to focus on.  In
an ultimate or theoretical sense, it is no doubt true that focusing on
the structures that oppress women and men alike would be the most
productive strategy all around.  This is certainly the most radical
approach, as in "getting at the root," not as in "extreme."

Nevertheless, we may not quite be ready for that just yet.  Women may
need to continue to work on identifying, clarifying, and gaining
recognition for the problems that primarily affect them.  Men may need
to do the same for themselves.  Then, when both positions are well-
articulated, we may then be in a position to come together to address
the issues that really are common, and that really underly our mutual
oppressions, both direct and indirect.

>	 ... we've only had a few years to even consider
>the concept of oppression of men.  You do realize that back in the
>late 60s and early 70s, when feminism was gaining momentum, that most
>women had to have their "consciousness raised" in order to see their
>own oppression?  That's where the men's movement is today; that
>oppression is not recognized by either men or women as a reality.

Precisely.  It is often challenging for women to accept the notion that
men might be oppressed, even though some of the early feminist writers
did explicitly discuss it.  However, since the forms of oppression that
men endure are often less obvious than those endured by women, they are
harder to identify, and harder still to identify _with._  Even for men.

Just as women had to face the problem of well-intended men who just
didn't get it, men are facing it now.  Men also face the same backlash
pressures from women and other men that the early feminists did.  In
addition, men can still be targets for the pent-up rage that women must
vent when they first recognize themselves as oppressed.  These and
other factors make it difficult for women to be of much help to men
who are raising their consciousness.

So, while it is good for men to borrow the tools of feminism, it is a
mistake for men to expect or hope for any direct involvement from
feminist women.  After the men's movement has done it's own homework,
both men and women will have strong and clearly-articulated positions
from which to come together.  Until then, men risk becoming parasites
or puppets of the women's movement unless they do their homework on
their own, and for themselves.

Furthermore, I've come to believe that the need for women's involvement
and/or approval is itself a symptom of the inner oppression that men
characteristically experience in our society.

-r

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