HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 08:25:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Jefferson Davis (?)

More On Jefferson Davis.--

Davis' wife was a Roman Catholic. This, and other circumstances,
led Charles Chiniquy, an ex-Roman Catholic Priest from Lower Canada,
to charge that Southern secession was a popish and jesuitical
plot to weaken the United States (the spearhead country of
Protestantism), and that the Jesuits conspired to assassinate
A. Lincoln when secession failed. Chiniquy published this
theory in his autobiography, _Fifty Years in the Church of
Rome_ (1886), which has been reprinted as both a paperback and a
comic book by Chick Publications of Chino, California. I bought
my copy of the comic book at a "Christian" book store around
the corner from Bob Jones University in Greenville, S.C. The book
store was recommended to me by the guard in the information kiosk
at Bob Jones Univ. Victor Sage, in _Horror Fiction in the Protestant
Tradition_, reports that a pamphlet retelling Chiniquy's story was
being handed out in the streets of Cambridge when the Pope visited
Britain in 1983.

Recently, both George Bush and Pat Buchanan came to Bob Jones
Univ. to solicit BJU's endorsement for the S.C. primary.

All this is apropos of nothing.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:40:00 GMT
From:         Strangler Aagonschmidt <H760@CPC865.EAST-ANGLIA.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Spanish heraldry

Remember GR4302?  I visualise GR balancing on his park bench, holding forth
(intrepidly, but with a growing air of weariness) through a rolled-up
newspaper megaphone to the emptiness around him-- and I don't know what GR
looks like, so it's only a newspaper floating at an indeterminate height
above a park bench -- and I don't know what newspapers GR reads, so it's
only a park bench (the first one on your right as you go past the
chrysanthemums on your way towards the Allan Adler monument): soon, even
GR will turn morose and mimic an infinite space: it's sort of sad, wouldn't
you say?

Perhaps it's time for a sequel to `M', the movie (1933), you'd have fun
doing the "crash! bam! boom! bang!" sound-effects and 'aranguing the
supporting actors, who are merely trying to turn an 'onest day's coat
'eralded up in arms in supplication for their salvation and the salutation
of you-who-are-now-nameless.  Besides, it might entertain those of me who
cannot read, while those of me who can amuse myselves with the perusal of
spying manuals -- last night's thrillers, or rather the introduction to them,
told me that the characters therein were not merely hard-boiled, but pickled
and deep-frozen: does this mean anything, d'you-who-can-read-for-perspectives
think?  Shrill, you declared, but only assez shrill for what I found to be
more than assez but then I'm not fighting that fight any more am I no I'm
not, for if I do, I lose out, lose face, and am left at a loss -- "privation
of that which we had, or had not."  Strange: when one ditches the commas, so
much else goes as well.  And if I choose to foster a passing humour and rally
it to my cause, it does not really matter: you've swept the board, for the
moment.  However, it gives you an odds-on-a-dinner-plate opportunity for
malicious misrepresentation, and that's nice, or to gloat, and that's nice
as well: "travail praepositus dictum [sic]" is what you told me, and I can't
argue with that.  I don't think she'd kill you (it'd leave too many empty
spaces, and another bothersome lykewake), but, then, I've been wrong before:
it could be that anything is meet and just in jousting jest, in which case,
m'dear, you die.

It's pronounced `haitch'.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 02:51:16 PDT
From:         "Don W." <webbd@CCVAX.CCS.CSUS.EDU>
Subject:      History and/or fiction
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

Michael Cammer makes a good point here...

>Films, even documentries,
>are fictional constructs.  We, for practical reasons, accept documentaries
>as fact-- but it is perverse to talk of the historical accuracy in a film
>about Lancelot and Arthur battling over a perfect woman.
>
>We need to re-evaluate the assumptions we have about historically accuracy
>in film.  Especially where the films themselves may be history.
>
Right.  History is not fiction, but fiction may become part of
history.  If you want a model of a medieval work playing fast
and loose with history and, in the process, becoming a part
of history itself, you've only to look at the _Chanson de
Roland_.  It was perhaps the Middle Ages' version of our
film medium...

Don W. - DonWebb@CSUS.EDU
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Organization: Univ. of Louisville
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 09:32:19 EDT
From:         Jim Cocks <JACOCK01@ULKYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Grant the Incompetent
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1@RUTVM1.RUTGERS.EDU

No need for flame retardant apparel.  I guess it may boil down to subjective
judgement, but to excuse the actions of a president because he was obsessed
with loyalty escapes me.  That obsession is common among incompetents.

  Jim
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Original_To:  HISTORY
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 22:05:00 EST
From:         BROWNH@CTSTATEU.BITNET
Subject:      social history

Ken, I presume the book you refer to is Barraclough's An Introduction
to Contemporary History.  I have the greatest respect for Barraclough's
good sense, and in a number of places he has made a persuasive case for
the study of world history. Yes, he offers some parameters for such a
history, and I think they should be taken seriously. On the other hand,
he does not really offer a prescription for writing such a history.
That is, knowing that a history should achieve this and avoid that helps
us recognize a good approach when we see it, but does not define that
approach. Doing so is a real challenge.

Haines Brown  (brownh@ccsu.ctstateu.edu)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:58:18 -0400
From:         ICJME@ASUACAD.BITNET
Subject:      For Jim Emmons at ASU

 *** Reply to note of 04/06/92 14:47
 Although I am an MS/DOS person, I also like Macs. Unfortunately, I am but a
 poor undergrad without a research topic to mind. <grin>
   I am happy that you got yours. Good luck with HP.
   Good luck with your work.

   Jim

 Enjoy!
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 00:44:44 CDT
From:         "Robert S. Rush" <rsr1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Jefferson Davis (?)

Jefferson Davis's home is named Beauvoir and is located between Gulfport
 anBiloxi.  The home itself has a nice history.  It seems that after Davis died
it was turned into a old soldiers home for Confederate Soldiers and their
spouses.  I don't have the exact date, but I believe that it ceased being a
home in 1950 when the last spouse died.
Rob Rush
rsr1@msstate
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 07:39:12 MST
From:         Skip Knox <DUSKNOX@IDBSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A view from CYBERSPACE

Thanks to Andy Bourgeois for the posting.  I basically agree with the
British humanist's comments.  The atmosphere here is pretty much that of
the neighborhood bar, with opining more frequent than analysis.

So what?  I might suggest that the level of discussion falls pretty
close to that heard in history departments any place I've ever been,
with the exception that we don't seem to talk baseball much around here.
HISTORY has its mission:  to provide a place for historians to hang out
and engage in the kind of casual conversation that occurs only among
those who share a common profession.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  simply because we all toil
in the same academic subject does not mean we ipso facto have much of
interest to say to one another.  Our discipline covers everything humans
have ever done, and we each of us have specialties that differ so
profoundly from one another that we can scarcely talk to one another
on a professional, scholarly footing.  For this reason I don't see
much potential even for the more specialized lists such as FICINO,
the social history list, EMHIST, or the rest.  I'm always ready to be
proven wrong.

I sympathize with those who complain; I understand their criticism.
But until we have critical mass in particular areas, it's unreasonable
to expect this list to have more than sporadic bursts of anything
resembling "scholarly" discussions.  Those who complain here are
voicing honest frustration.  Those, like that British humanist (so,
what is he/she really:  lit prof?  historian?) who harumph in print
are being rather too grandly serious about the matter.

Ellis "Skip" Knox       dusknox@idbsu.idbsu.edu
PC Coordinator & Faculty Computer Lab Supervisor
Professor of History
Boise State University  Boise, Idaho
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 20:40:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Historical inaccuracies

 Yes, I agree that inaccurate depictions of the past in historical
novels and "costume dramas" are bad things. I think that writers
and directors should be true to their subject matter.

In teaching, I don't use historical novels (save for _French
Lieut's Woman_, once--from my surface reading of the novel, I guess
that Fowles read W.L. Burn's _Age of Equipoise_). Rather, I like to
use contemporary novels like Oliphant's _Perpetual Curate_,
Dickens' _Bleak House_, and Gaskell's _Mary Barton_.

So, if I were teaching a 20th-century course, I might use a film
like, say, _Blowup_, to give a flavor of the times.

Another entry in the rogues' gallery of inaccurate films would be
the Lloyd Douglas epics, _The Robe_, and _Demetrius and the
Gladiators_. _The Robe_ is a terrible film to watch if one wants
to learn about the history of First-century Christianity, but
it tells a lot about religious attitudes in mid-twentieth-century
United-States history.

 But you are right to point to the power of cinema to distort and
mislead.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 09:36:56 EDT
From:         Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: historically accurate TV
              7 Apr 1992 13:39:00 EDT from <DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET>

Denis, I don't understand the connection between "Southern womanhood" and
advocacy of the slavery principle in the South.

Lenny
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:56:00 GMT
From:         "Anthony Behan, University College Galway,
              Ireland." <LAWBEHAN@ORBSEN.UCG.IE>
Subject:      Re: list of movies
Comments: To: HISTORY@irlearn.ucd.ie

>        I also love to watch medieval movies, especially Robin Hood
>movies, but I don't of that many movies that exist pertaining to this
>topic.  So could you please send a list of movies (hopefully
>historically right) that are about this topic.  Thanks.  Also, do you
>have any interest in medieval warfare (such as weapons, armor, etc)?
>Just curious...

If you're not sending this list _to_ the list, please
include a copy to me also. The classic, by the way, that
springs to my mind would be _Excalibur_. I loved that film
from beginning to end. If you like the magical and fantastic
element also (which I do), then try to find a film called
_Dragonslayer_; equally brilliant. But these, besides of
course good ol' Robin Hood, are the only two that I can
think of.

Anthony.

lawbehan@orbsen.ucg.ie
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 08:17:14 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: films & history

On Wed, 8 Apr 1992 07:28:32 MST Skip Knox said:
>A work of art is produced by an individual, or at least under the
>direction of an individual or small group.  The work is a reflection
>of those unique individuals.  Going from that to the whole is a large
>leap.  Making the leap successfully requires a great deal of prior
>knowledge about the historical era in which the individuals lived.
>
No, I don't think so.  I still believe in the "eternal verities," at least in
part, and I don't think I *need* a great deal of background to engage in
dialogue with most books by most great authors, be they 9th century Greeks or
20th century Germans.  The great authors call out to us from across the ages,
if we only have ears to hear them.

>I have never agreed with those who see the Iliad, for example as a
>timeless piece that just anyone can pick up and understand.  Just
>anyone can pick it up and _enjoy_ it, certainly; but to understand
>the work requires a knowledge of ancient Greece.  We don't need that
>background to read modern literature because we are part of the
>living culture, but older works are better understood when the
>reader better understands the times that produced them.
>
>Ellis "Skip" Knox       dusknox@idbsu.idbsu.edu
>PC Coordinator & Faculty Computer Lab Supervisor
>Professor of History
>Boise State University  Boise, Idaho

While knowing a little background is harmless, indeed, helpful, ultimately
you are left with yourself and the text:  the beginning and ending of all your
transaction with the work.  If I seem to harp on this strain, it is because in
my younger, would-be critic days, it became crystal clear to me that students
would eagerly seize upon any excuse, especially that of "understanding the
background," to avoid confronting & understanding the text.  When =The Illiad=
took on final form, I doubt its audience understood its background better than
we do today; the times had changed enormously.  But I bet they understood the
*work*, as have successive generations of readers down to the present.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 09:19:04 EDT
From:         Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jefferson Davis (?)
              9 Apr 1992 12:27:00 GMT from <v064lnev@UBVMSB.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Zerxes:  After the surrender of Lee and his army, the government of the
Confederacy fled from Richmond on a train wihich carried the officials
of the governent, the state treasury (modest but valuable) and the
state papers.  They originally intended to form a new capitol in North
Carolina, but as the magnitude of the Union victory became more obvious
their journey degenerated into an escape.  Their last plan was to make
it to the coast, and sail to Cuba.

One by one the "culprits" left the band, and finally Jeff Davis was caught
somewhere in middle Georgia.  He was taken to a federal prison in Virginia,
where he was well treated, but not comfortable (cold, damp).  He was never
brought to trial, but was released after about 5 years.

After this, he was something of a folk hero, and spent his time writing, and
attending rallies of Confederate army veterans.  He died in 1889 in
Neww Orleans at a veteran's meeting.

Davis was ain intensly intellectual man, with a curiosity about almost
every facet of human knowledge.  I have a book written by his prison
doctor, and the verbatim descriptions of conversations reveal an amazing
store of information.  Davis' great failing was that he was a mediocre
administator, who had difficulty delegating responsiblitly, and
with strategic planning.

Lenny
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 10:40:19 EDT
From:         Michael Cammer <cammer@AECOM.YU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Historically accurate films
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              Murray" at Apr 5, 92 3:17 pm

Jacqueline Murray writes:
>
> >From the perspective of  premodern social history, The Return of Martin
> Guerre is wonderful. It is accurate thanks to historical consultant Natalie
> Davis and the students are intrigued by the story. I have many more
> reservations about The Name of the  Rose. While I agree the  novel is
> firmly rooted in the Middle Ages the film is quite a departure. The scribes
> copy into bound codices and Bernard Gui contravenes the rules for inquisitors
> that he himself instituted. It strikes me as a negative protrayal of medieval
> society and one that panders to the notion of "Dark Ages" (didn't the sun
> ever shine?).
>
> Jacqueline Murray
> Department of History
> University of Windsor
>
Did men and women really have such consciousness and attitudes towards
sex?  Or is this anachronism?

--
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 15:30:51 EST
From:         PHILLIP@PURCCVM.BITNET
Subject:      nomail

SET NO MAIL
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 15:17:25 EST
From:         Jacqueline Murray <JACQ@UCC.UWINDSOR.CA>
Subject:      Historically accurate films
Comments: To: History <history%rutvm1.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

From the perspective of  premodern social history, The Return of Martin
Guerre is wonderful. It is accurate thanks to historical consultant Natalie
Davis and the students are intrigued by the story. I have many more
reservations about The Name of the  Rose. While I agree the  novel is
firmly rooted in the Middle Ages the film is quite a departure. The scribes
copy into bound codices and Bernard Gui contravenes the rules for inquisitors
that he himself instituted. It strikes me as a negative protrayal of medieval
society and one that panders to the notion of "Dark Ages" (didn't the sun
ever shine?).

Jacqueline Murray
Department of History
University of Windsor
From: v064lnev@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Avatar)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Roman Battle Tactics
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:03:00 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Hello Historians,

	Could someone please inform me as to the tactics used by the Romans in
battle.  I am especially interested in the various formations they used, such
as the phalanx.  Thank you very much.
                                       .
                                     .' `.                                      
___________________________________.'-{*}-`.____________________________________
Zerxes M. Bhagalia                '---------` TCP: v064lnev@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
State University of New York   .---------------.    bhaga-z@acsu.buffalo.edu    
  at Buffalo                 .'                 `.  BIT: v064lnev@ubvms.bitnet
Recovering Engineer        .'                     `.  Director, News Information
Computer Science         .'________MDCCLXXVI________`.    Division, WFFT 90.5 FM
---------------------N O V U S   O R D O   S E C L O R U M----------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:29:11 EDT
From:         "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      re: social history

   Why don't those who are interested in social history, as I am, just troop
on over to WORLD-L@UBVM (Non-Eurocentric World History List)? There was some
fascinating discussion about a month ago, but since then the list seems to have
hit a slow patch. I yield the floor to Haines Brown to explain further wherein
WORLD-L may be what you're looking for.

Daniel A. Foss
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 14:58:47 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      re: social history
              8 Apr 1992 12:29:11 EDT from <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>

"Non-Eurocentric World History"???

What on Earth might that mean?   Another Fossian tangent, I presume.


Lenny
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 12:45:25 EDT
From:         "Andrew J. Bourgeois" <HABOURG@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      A view from CYBERSPACE

Reading through Michael Heims' "The Erotic Ontology of Cyberspace" (In:
CYBERSPACE: First Steps, Michael Benedikt, ed., MIT, 1991) I came across
the following (less than complimentary) reference to this list:

     "...One British humanist spoke of the HISTORY forum on Bitnet in
     the following terms: 'The HISTORY network has no view of what it
     exists for, and of late has become a sort of bar-room courthouse
     for pseudo-historical discussion on a range of currently topical
     events. It really is, as Glasgow soccer players are often called,
     a waste of space.'..."

Sounds like the disgruntled maundering of a flame-war burn case (who
also probably lost a bundle betting on Glasgow!).


Andy Bourgeois
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X-Original-To:  history@rutvm1, BERGERA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:49:00 EDT
Comments:     Warning -- RSCS tag indicates an origin of BERGERA@CITADEL
From:         BERGERA@CITADEL2.BITNET
Subject:      Info on General Lewis "Chesty" Puller, USMC.

Could anyone direct me to research material on  Chesty's life and career?  The
only book I have seen is a biography by Burke Davis (ca.1962.)

Any help would be greatly appreciated !!

Andrew Berger
BITNET: BERGERA@CITADEL
INTERNET: BERGERA@CITADEL.EDU
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:49:00 EST
From:         SHSILVER@IUBACS.BITNET
Subject:      History and Films

Ellis Knox dismisses the idea that historical films and novels should be
responsible for being realistic with a flippant "It's just make-believe folks."
Although I agree (to a certain extent) with his comment that the fault lies
with the reader rather than the author (or viewer/filmmaker), it ceases to
be make-believe when people use these fictions as the basis for forming their
(very real) opinions.  The idea that the responsibility lies entirely within
the reader/viewer is ranks with the modern feeling that disassociates an
individual from their responsibility which leads to the spate of civil law-
suits we have today or the famous Nazi strategem at Nuremburg.  Although much
of the fault lays with a reader when he interprets something clearly marked as
fiction to be fact, the author is not devoid of social responsibility and
should take time to research the period he is attempting to portray before
putting pen to paper (quill to vellum, typewriter to paper, electronic impulses
to disk, &c.).

H Silver                    SHSILVER@ucs.indiana.edu
------------------------------------------------------------
"Rationality is one of the more recent additions to the
ge, and as a newcomer, is deeply
distrusted by all the staid and respectable instincts."
                              -Joseph Adamson