HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Fabrikant and Concordia ME's response
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:19:53 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <1992Aug31.220721.13464@cs.sfu.ca> jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>In article <16281@pitt.UUCP> geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:

>>>response?  To give him a medical leave, or to get a court order
>>>to have him committed?
>>
>>I don't know about Canada, but here they would not have any
>>standing in court to have him committed against his will.
>
>     Even when they knew he was trying to get a gun and had made
>death threats and acted violently?  They even had him searched
>for guns once.

If he had made death threats or acted violently, they could have
called the police, who then, if they suspected he was mentally
ill, would have court standing to have him examined by a psychiatrist,
but no employer can go to court to get an employee committed.
It has to be a family member, a doctor, or an officer of the law,
as far as I know.  I don't know about Canada, though.
>
>     My point is that when he started threatening people and
>acting violent, they should have said "OK, well now we know why
>he has been so abusive and difficult; it's not that he just has
>a personality problem, it's that he is mentally unstable."

Unfortunately, most lay people have no idea how to handle such
a person.  It is a lot easier to see how dangerous Fabrikant
was in retrospect.  It is also a lot easier to deal with such
people legally *after* they do something like this than before.
It is very hard to incarcerate someone or force them into
a mental hospital until they actually break the law.  The law
is set up to protect the individual more than society.  This
is how it should be or anyone with a modicum of power would
use the law to rid himself of anyone who annoyed him.
It would not surprise me to learn that the University did
notify the police when they learned that Fabrikant was buying
guns but that the police did nothing.


>     When someone is going off the deep end, and it's visible
>to everyone around him, then everyone around him shares the
>responsibility for getting him help, IMHO.
>
Again, it isn't clear that it was visible to everyone around
him.  In the case of paranoids, who do not see the problem as
being with themselves, it is extremely difficult to get them help.  
They don't want any help.  
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Fabrikant
Date: 26 Aug 92 23:43:24 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <1992Aug26.205330.22141@Princeton.EDU> lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer) writes:

[some good constructive suggestions on dealing with ``difficult'' people
in power positions...]

>Obviously, therapy is one answer, altough it is often unavailable
>to graduate students because of the high cost.  

Most schools have a health center and provide free or low cost therapy.
I suspect cost is not the problem for students to obtain therapy.  
However, it's likely that many don't know what's available, and
are concerned about possible stigma attached to going for
mental help.

-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant did not post to sci.research.careers
Originator: clewis@bwdlh118
Organization: Eee!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:45:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.214915.5843@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>>Interesting that you chose to print both sides of the story.  Commendable.
>>However, in posting confidential memos and documentation, dod you
>>unknowingly open yourself to a lawsuit yourself?

There was only one side to the story - we've seen only what Fabrikant
chose to include.

>Third parties in the U.S. are generally not bound by "confidentially"
>(unless they conspire to steal the material). They can, however, be
>liable for libel.

Ditto in Canada.  Confidentiality of such material is a contractual
matter, and 3rd parties aren't bound by such - unless they conspired
to steal it.

Other possibilities: libel - they'd have to prove that the material
had been faked.  And frankly, I don't think that they would want to
do that - IMHO, the material proves their position rather than
Fabrikant's.

Copyright maybe.  Doubtful - since the material would have been part
of Fabrikant's file, I think the originator would have little likelihood
of making copyright stick.  Since the material isn't "commercial",
they certainly would be hard-pressed to prove damages.

Besides, any attempts at legal redress would be seen as an attempted
coverup and that would be a *major* mistake - the media would rip 'em
apart.

And more importantly, pursuing such a lawsuit in the US from Canada is
extremely difficult and expensive, and usually not worth the bother.
Only the lawyers would win.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.canada
From: mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF])
Subject: Re: Illuminating Fabricant quotation
Organization: Math Faculty Computing Facility, University of Waterloo, Canada
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 14:20:34 GMT

If you read through his other letters, you'll notice he doesn't have a
complete mastery of our language.  Perhaps in saying those things, he
didn't *intend* to provide any foreshadowing, and so I doubt that we
should interpret it as such.

Just my opinion...

-- Murray S. Kucherawy ----------------------------------------+--------------
Software Systems Co-op, Math Faculty Computing Facility [MFCF] | This is a
University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada                        | machine that
E-mail: mskucherawy@{math,watdragon}.UWaterloo.ca              | goes PING!
---------------------------------------------------------------+--------------
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant did not post to sci.research.careers
Originator: clewis@bwdlh118
Organization: Eeeeee!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:42:12 GMT

In article <lharris.16@upei.ca> lharris@upei.ca (Lora Harris) writes:
>1) Doesn't the USA have laws against libel, and laws against the invasion of 
>privacy involved in publishing confidential information?  For instance, if a 
>US doctor were to publish a list of names of those who had been treated by 
>him for venereal diseases, wouldn't he get sued?

Probably not.  Not in Canada either - where it matters in this case.

Divulging confidential information is more adequately covered under
individual statute (criminal law).

In Canada, the doctor would be charged with several criminal offences
(Venereal Disease Act, Infectious Diseases Act etc.).  Serious toast time.
The penalties are *very* steep.  After that, the College of Physicians
and Surgeons would have at it and probably suspend or revoke the doctor's
license for malpractice/breach of oath.  This one is taken very seriously.
[I know, I was part of a Royal Commission investigating allegations of this
type.]

In contrast, the only civil (lawsuit) recourse that I know of is libel
or slander, and since the defence would be "truth", it's hard to see whether
it would stick.  The victim of something like this would be best advised
to keep their mouth shut and let the criminal courts deal with it.  Though,
the CoPaS may need a bit of prodding.

This is a poor comparison.

A perhaps better one is publishing the names of "johns".  Where legal opinion
appears to be that the newspapers are safe from lawsuit - unless the
allegations are untrue.

>2) How on earth can the comment "How American" apply to an incident in 
>Canada?  We most obviously aren't American.  Neither is our legal system.  
>Concordia is in Canada, in the province of Quebec.

I think the original poster was referring to the reception of the material
by an American, and the lawsuit comment by another American.  Nothing
to do with the incident itself per-se.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: disaacs@thuma.carleton.ca (Dave Isaacs)
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
Organization: Carleton University
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:08:00 GMT

In <1992Aug26.175452.15258@linus.mitre.org> crawford@church.mitre.org (Randy Crawford) writes:

>In article <1992Aug26.150049.13307@relay.nswc.navy.mil>, 
>bwallet@apssgi.nswc.navy.mil (Brad Wallet) writes:
>>
>> I am still interested in whether the college is going to
>> have to answer the charges made by Dr. Fabrikant.  I guess
>> there is no disagreeing that his actions proved him mad,
>> but his claims still should be examined.
> 
>The charges certainly contributed to his state of mind.  I have to
>believe that Fabricant's attorney will attempt to validate them, at
>least to mitigate the act as Fabrikant's reaction to an impossible 
>situation, thereby reducing his sentence.

Unfortunately, I have heard that Fabrikant has fired his attorney and will
be representing himself
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: mcgonig@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca (Gordon McGonigal)
Subject: Re: The Fabrikant affair - any news?
Organization: Dept. of Elect. & Comp. Engineering, U of Manitoba
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 06:03:51 GMT

acohen@cs.ucsd.edu (Ariel Cohen) writes:
>   I wonder, does Fabrikant have a family? Could someone tell us 
>what the local papers are saying?

The CBC reported that there were 3 guns at the scene.  One was registered
to him, the other two were his wife's.  All were obtained legally.

I don't know what the point of that is, but you asked about his family...
--
                                   * * *
Gord McGonigal                                  mcgonig@eeserv.ee.UManitoba.ca
Dept. of Electrical & Computer Engineering
University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, CANADA (R3T 2N2)       phone: (204) 474-6295
Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:912 soc.culture.japan:7543 fj.misc:578 misc.misc:3229 misc.wanted:8124
From: gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan Gilligan 303-497-3861)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Fabrikant, "mad" or "bad" ?
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:38:18 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <BtnAuH.3rG@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond) writes:
>  I hope someone with some psychological training will help us out here.  
>I suspect that arguing about "sane" and "insane" is like arguing about 
>"sick" and "healthy".  Fabrikant clearly did something abnormal, but I 
>would hesitate to say that he was insane.  Isn't there a position between 
>"sane" and "insane", like "disturbed"?

According to my father, a psychiatrist specializing in violence, the
legal definition of insane has nothing to do with mental health. It
basically consists of meeting one of two criteria (and I'm
paraphrasing from memory here, so I may not quite be accurate):

1) The perpetrator can't distinguish right from wrong (i.e., is
incapable of realizing that killing is bad)

or

2) The perpetrator knows that an action is wrong, but is unable to
keep from doing it (e.g., the perpetrator thinks that the victim was
killing him with supernatural powers, so he had to defend himself).

"Sick" and "healthy" have nothing to do with it. I prefer to think in
terms of more colloquial usage, myself.

---Jon
-- 

Disclaimer --- The government probably disagrees with my opinions.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant did not post to sci.research.careers
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:53:01 GMT

Dov Bai-MSI Visitor (bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:

: so there might have been A.LST, C.LST etc. for people whose name begin
: with a different letter in the alphabet. I decided to send it to
: s.r.c. becasue I thought it might be helpful for people who are 
: eagerly looking for a tenure-track position to see how the "Real
: World" looks, and that it is not a paradise at all. Later on I sent
: it also science.research.

Interesting that you chose to print both sides of the story.  Commendable.
However, in posting confidential memos and documentation, dod you
unknowingly open yourself to a lawsuit yourself?

I don't know why so many people want to work in the academic environment.
It has its own set of rewards, but also its own set of horrors - just like
the "Real World".  Academia and the corporate culture don't mix, either,
BTW.

Too many people equate "tenure track" with "guaranteed job".  Nothing could
be further from the truth.

I feel sorry for Dr. Fabricant.  But I feel even sorrier for his victims,
and their families.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant did not post to sci.research.careers
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:49:15 GMT

erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:

[...]
>Interesting that you chose to print both sides of the story.  Commendable.
>However, in posting confidential memos and documentation, dod you
>unknowingly open yourself to a lawsuit yourself?
[...]

Third parties in the U.S. are generally not bound by "confidentially"
(unless they conspire to steal the material). They can, however, be
liable for libel.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: rusin@mp.cs.niu.edu (David Rusin)
Subject: Fabrikant update
Organization: Northern Illinois University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 04:15:54 GMT

A third person has now died, having been critically wounded in 
Fabrikant's assault. [AP newsitem heard Wed. 5 pm CST]

Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:936 soc.culture.canada:6240
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Illuminating Fabricant quotation
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:52:57 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada


I understand that some people have interest in presenting Quebec as
only French and anti-English, but :

In article <csty+a=@rpi.edu> maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty) writes:
>
>Its obvious that these people both expect Fabrikant to have mastered English
>to become tenured.  I'm not sure that is fair, since Concordia is in Quebec
>if I remember correctly, which would mean that French is the primary language
>there.  That means that he would not get much chance to practice his English.
>
>Bill
>|	maniattb@cs.rpi.edu - in real life Bill Maniatty

Concordia is an English speaking university, like McGill (also in
Montreal) and Lennoxville (besides Sherbrooke).  So, the fact that
Concordia is in Quebec has no relation with the quality of Fabrikant's
English.

Moreover, if this was in a French-speaking university, I don't see
the relation between someone's
English being worse and impeachment of tenure.
Using english would help to have more publication, but at the
local level, in a non-english university, this is not relevant.  Compare
with any other non-english country.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Un Quebec renouvele dans une Amerique renovee
\_.-===                                                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: mds@iastate.edu (Mark D. Smucker)
Subject: Fabrikant did not post to sci.research.careers
Organization: Iowa State University of Censorship and Repression
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 03:33:18 GMT


One thing should be noted here, Dr. Fabrikant did not post to this
group,  Dov Bai ( bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu ) posted all of the
articles.  I am curious where Mr. Bai got the articles etc.  What
other groups saw the same set of postings?

Mark D. Smucker   ----  mds@iastate.edu


Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: Re: Two die, three hurt in university rampage - Montreal Gazette
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 02:31:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.172229.22707@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov> jonke@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Stephen Jonke) writes:
>In article <disaacs.714756296@cunews>, disaacs@martha.carleton.ca (Dave Isaacs) writes:
>> 
>> This is from the Montreal Gazette, 25-August-1992
>> 
>> TWO DIE, THREE HURT IN UNIVERSITY RAMPAGE
>> By Aaron Derfel, Geoff Baker, and Elizabeth Thompson
>> 
>> Montreal- A shooting rampage at Concordia University left two employees dead
>> and three wounded Monday after a man walked into the university's main 
>> downtown building with a handgun.
>
>> The charges were based on a number of electronic on a number of Fabrikant's
>> electronic mail messages.
>> 
>
>Has anything like this ever happened before?  That is, what we have here is
>publically available copies of notes from a madman before their killing
>spree.



We do *ourselves* a great disservice by automatically labeling those who commit
these types of crimes as madmen.



-- 
David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
Highly Opinionated, Aging  and                      knapp@spot.colorado.edu
Perpetual Student of Chemistry and Physics.
            Write me for an argument on your favorite subject.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant, "mad" or "bad" ?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:59:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.113507.29366@relay.nswc.navy.mil>, bwallet@apssgi.nswc.navy.mil (Brad Wallet) writes:
> 
> You are correct in stating that his actions may not be judged legally
> insane, but since when is the legal answer the right answer?  People
> in a sane state of mind do not do what he did.  
	.
	.
> No, his actions were not that
> of a sane man in an insane position.  He was not sane.

  I hope someone with some psychological training will help us out here.  
I suspect that arguing about "sane" and "insane" is like arguing about 
"sick" and "healthy".  Fabrikant clearly did something abnormal, but I 
would hesitate to say that he was insane.  Isn't there a position between 
"sane" and "insane", like "disturbed"?

> Incidently, anyone want to guess how many slimeballs analysed the
> situation and decided that what all of this means is that Concordia
> now has several open billets for tenure track faculty?

  Hadn't even occurred to me until you mentioned it. But then, if even 
half of Fabrikant's accusations are true, how many people would really
want to try for tenure there?

-Darrell.
From: dooley@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Kevin Dooley)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Fraud and extortion at Concordia University (Canada) (part IV)
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:12:15 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto Physics/Astronomy/CITA

In article <1992Aug24.213031.7339@mailhost.ocs.mq.edu.au> wskelly@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (William Skelly) writes:
>Gee and just when this list was getting boring!  Its great to see
>things running so smoothly back home, I think I'll stay in Oz.
>
>Seriously, since nobody else seems willing to get ensnared in this
>most grusome of quagmires. What the hell here goes...
>
>We (royal "we") must all be thinking the same thing.  This guy
>(lets call him DT, DeepThroat), DT is totally over the top and we
>shouldn't say anything for fear of escalating this.  O.K. on the
>other hand this could be a complete hoax, I mean the situation is
>not unjamesbond you know.  
>
>Can anybody in netland provide any non-libalous, non-inflamitory,
>poop on the key players real or imagined existance, or perhaps the
>existance of said publications?
>
>Cheers,
>Chris

Well, the latest word is that Fabrikant took several firearms into the
department and murdered 3 people and wounded 2 others.  He then surrendered
to police after a short standoff which ended in him having a small heart
attack and having to be rushed to hospital.  I haven't heard how the
other 2 people are doing.  He has been charged with 3 counts of first
degree murder and several other lesser charges.
	Kevin Dooley
From: alexa@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Alexander Anger)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:24:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Halt harrasment, lawyer urged Fabrikant in 1983.....
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Rosa, CA
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers

These lawsuit actions by Fabrikant against the world speak much about
his character.  I have had to change my opinions about the man quite
a bit since the original postings forwarded by "Dov".  Fabrikant seems
to indeed be a sorry champion against the abuses of those in power.
He himself seems to have been a great champion of the "meek that
roar like lions", i.e., those people who at every step and turn in
their lives find a reason to launch lawsuits against others.  These
types of people are probably just as much at fault for the deterioration
of our societies as are those who abuse their official positions of power.

On Fabrikant's prolific literature, one almost gets the impression from
reading the abstracts that he was as good at squeezing papers out of
related topics as the best administrator.  Although interesting in
their own right as intellectual tomes, the description of the problems
leaves one wondering if any ME who ever built a real structure could
make use of them.

Sorry, Mr. Fabrikant, you are not the Robin Hood of academia.
From: 5916rahmank@vms.csd.mu.edu
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: The Fabrikant affair - any news?
Date: 1 Sep 92 03:54:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: vms.0095FEF8.044A2400
Reply-To: 5916rahmank@vms.csd.mu.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services

In article <1992Aug27.122120.14861@tc.cornell.edu>, bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
|>In article <37305@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> acohen@cs.ucsd.edu (Ariel Cohen) writes:
|>>
|>>   I find the Fabrikant affair very intriguing; it's almost like
|>>real-life Dostoyevsky.
|>>
|>>   I wonder, does Fabrikant have a family? Could someone tell us 
|>>what the local papers are saying? It would be nice if someone who
|>>follows the investigation in Montreal would post a summary of the 
|>>developments and what the press reveals. Or am I the only curious 
|>>soul?
|>>
|>
|>No, you are not alone. I for one am very curious as well.
|>
|>
|>>-- Ariel

	So are lots of people, I guess. I am, for sure.