HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Super rp's
Date: 3 Oct 92 22:29:55 GMT
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University

gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Grant R. Davis) writes:
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>>	OTOH, the multiple action rules are unbalanced and not well 
>>integreted, IMO. Anyone who buys up his Move not only gets a Dodge that 
>>makes him immune to almost anything - 
>
>Maximum dodge is 8.

	Care to give a reference for that? 

	I can think of several contradictory references GURPS Supers: the 
sidebar suggestion to use a Contest of Skills for defense rolls if Dodges 
are 13+, among others. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | Alice: "But if I wasn't real, I shouldn't be
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | able to cry."  Tweedledum: "I hope you don't
Columbia University         | imagine those are *real* tears."
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Super rp's
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:39:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.183153.7799@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy) writes:
>In article <1992Sep25.204446.9859@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>
>	Well, John, thanks for the information, now I know that there
>was an attempt to make Supers move multiple times for every move of
>normals.  But that negates the statement said earlier ( which Brandon
>Cope has already explained to me ) which seemed to me to imply that
>GURPS handles "Wildcards-like" realism better than Hero because Supers
>CAN'T move much faster than normals in GURPS.  I said in reply that that
>seems like a weakness of GURPS, because it happens in some areas of the
>source genre.  What I implied was the unwinnable argument is that either
>GURPS and Hero handled multiple attacks, and so were equally capable of
>abuse, or Hero handled it and GURPS didn't which seemed to me to be a
>deficit of GURPS ability to simulate comics.  

Yes, GURPs has rules (both optional and not) to simulate supers acting
faster then normals.  As does Hero.  But, in GURPs, acting faster then
a normal human is the exception, not the rule.  In the Champions
campaigns that I have been in, 4 has been pretty much the minimum
speed.  That means that even the hulking bricks have been twice as
fast as a normal person.  And those with a speed of 4 have generally
seemed to be pretty slow by party standards.

It is the fact that most Champs characters seem to have DCV's much 
higher then the average gunman's OCV that keeps me from being scared
by bullets.  Not the amount of damage being done.  (Okay, that is a 
bit of an over-generalization, but I'm sure you get the point.)


Joe
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: Storyteller System (Was:  WereVamp->Ars)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:05:18 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <1992Oct5.102220.3452@crc.ac.uk> aking@crc.ac.uk (Mr. A.W. King) writes:
>Just a quick note, the following is not true:

>You can never have more than ten dice in one roll.

>Celerity adds to Dex and Potence to Strength so e.g. Dex(5)+Skill(3)+Cel(3)=11

Yes, but the rules state that you can never use more than ten dice
in a roll.  In the example you use, you'd be able to use that extra 
die to try and do something else, or split the dice pool, perhaps.
But you can't roll eleven dice at once.

Bryant
durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
From: jogle@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: State of the art
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:33:32 GMT
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM

In article <mumble> dfn@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David Nalle) writes:

>And on another topic...
>
>Someone held up TORG as an example of the new State of the Art?
>
>That was a joke, right?  TORG is a horrible game system.  The setting is 
>fairly neat, but again, if we're looking for State of the Art mechanics,
>TORG isn't very realistic, is rather restrictive and dictatorial, and 
>isn't actually all that playable.

Bull----.  It is the most playable system I've had the pleasure of
coming across in years.  Not very realistic?  Name one system that
incorporates magic, psionics, and religious miracles that is!  As for
calling it "restrictive and dictatorial", I would like to hear you
explain that comment so I can correctly tear into your incorrect
assumptions.

-- 
Kansas Jim (Jim Ogle, TORG guru)                               /|
jogle@aoc.nrao.edu (NRAO-VLBA, Socorro New Mexico)           o| |-
"I'd be apathetic if I cared."                              /|\\|
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: Storyteller System (Was:  WereVamp->Ars)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 20:42:23 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <1992Oct5.140336.7957@news.uiowa.edu> durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell) writes:

A lot of wrong speculation on Vampire probabilities.  I should have
thought about it a bit harder, sorry.  <sigh>

Yes, the probability of both a botch and a success increase the more
dice you have to roll on a 10 target number.

Bryant Durrell
durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: mb@milton.u.washington.edu (Ralph Bunn)
Subject: twilight 2000
Summary: n
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 22:10:39 GMT

I've tried to play this game the right way but the combat sequence is so damn intricate and detailed by the time you finishe firing off you 50-round belt in your m-60 you could've taken 20 minutes just to see if you hit and where. Does anyone know how to make this easier. If you've ever played this game please 
reply because I'm going to go crazy trying to figure out this game.I would just like to know if there is another person out there with the same problem. 
Even if someone has even played this game your input would be greatly
appreciated.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dmgirard@nyx.cs.du.edu (David Girardot)
Subject: SRUN1/2: Problem of Too Much Combat?
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 02:17:45 GMT



Something always bothered me about srun, that is, that combat is a real
big part of it.  Yes, I know the alternatives ... and corp/street
intrigues are a good alternative.  However, here is the problem: I don't
know of any introductory adventures in this vein.  I mean, there alre
less-combat oriented adventures, but these usually end up in a big
blow-out at the end.  The other problem is that much of character creation
is combat oriented.   I mean, the big issue in char. design, as far as I
have seen, is how much damage can I do how fast.  The combat-mentality is
partially the heritage of rpg's ... wargames.  I mean, let's face it, the
point of DnD was originally fighting bigger and better monsters to get
bigger and better treasures.  And I think a detailed combat system just
makes things worse.  IMHO, a combat system that's fast-and-loose is more
than likely going to be found in a system in which combats are not the
central isssue.

Well I have started another campaign and I've laid the wrong groundwork
already.  The two chars made are walking machines of destruction.  At
least I can impose realistic legal restrictions on gear ... but I doubt
even that is going to be enough to get the players to think before leaping
into a firefight.  The other problem is that I've been conditioned so that
even I subconciously or not so subconciously want some good fights in a
game.  Let's face it, it really helps move things along.

Oh well, twas a long strange road.  Any suggestions or comments would be
helpful.  THanks.

--David

--
                    dmgirard@nyx.cs.du.edu
                 Girardot@Vax.Dickinson.Edu

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.misc
From: braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER)
Subject: Re: Reichstar (sp?)
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:12:35 GMT

capron@lareth.UUCP (Michael P. Capron) writes:

>Actually, I rather liked Reichstar.  I thought the artwork was fine.  The game
					^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	Sorry to have a gripe about this, but although there are some nice
	dark pieces very few rise above mediocrity, and the sketch of a 
	Japanese star fighter, near the middle of the book is purely obscene
	in its unproffessional look.

>mechanices *looked* reasonable, but I have only perused them.  Those world
>aspects they did cover seemed well thought out.  However, a GM would have to
>do a lot to actually put a campaign together based on the sparse framework.

The mechanics do not look that bad, no.

|-|()()|<
From: gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Grant R. Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Super rp's
Date: 2 Oct 92 19:20:58 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Sep25.204446.9859@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

>cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy) writes:

>	OTOH, the multiple action rules are unbalanced and not well 
>integreted, IMO. Anyone who buys up his Move not only gets a Dodge that 
>makes him immune to almost anything - 

Maximum dodge is 8.

Grant Davis
gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

"This is good[beer]. Remind me to take this world."-Lost Destiny


Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:2589 rec.games.design:1657
From: jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Supplements for Multiple Systems
Date: 1 Oct 92 08:35:53 GMT
	<MAVRA.92Sep16075112@bailey.cpac.washington.edu>,<MAVRA.92Sep29153530@bailey.cpac.washington.edu>
	<1992Sep30.125909.1334@msus1.msus.edu>
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Rd, Harlow, Essex, CM19 9NA, U.K.

In article <1992Sep30.125909.1334@msus1.msus.edu> f00022@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (M. Shanmugasundaram (F00022@TIGGER.stcloud.msus.edu)) writes:
.....
>   statistics. If this is the case, why not go completely descriptive 
>   (like Grimtooth's Traps) and simple include statistics for a variety of 
.....
>   The creativity lies primarily in the use of language, not the 
>   rating systems. While I am aware that unique organizational systems are 
>   the backbones of most games, is it really necessary for the type 
>   of creative environment you are trying to provide? 
>
>   Merwin %@

I like this far better.  Purely descriptive.  How do you say how much magic
someone has though?  You could have a one page story on each type of character
showing how they behave in a fight.  You could even put all the main characters
together in a hypothetical fight and show their relative powers by telling the
story of the fight and show who wins.  This seems more fun to produce but
could be slower to read than doing stat conversions.

Jonathan
--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  With fearsome eyes and fiery breath the dragon burnt the girl to death
                    -- from "Too Late Saint George"
From: maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 01:38:49 EDZ
Distribution: world
Organization: Sweet Oblivion

jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

> 	Yes, but the trouble is that in GURPS is happens all the time for 
> people of HT 15 or greater. A quick check with a calculator will reveal 
> that there is over a 50% chance that these people will have to be taken 
> down to -5*HT in order to kill them. 

You're forgetting bleeding (again). If you have HT 15, take enough hits
to go to -HT (that's 30 of them), you're making bleeding checks at HT-6,
or a grand big score of 9. Five failures (and hits) later that's HT-7
and so on... Only 3 _consecutive_ successes or a crit will save the poor
guy if medical help is not forthcoming. Even at roll 9, the chances for
3 consecutive successes is in the order of 5% - not very good.

HT 15 does give you a good chance of surviving if you get help soon
(bleeding checks are made at 30sec. intervals). Think about Real
Life(tm). People don't die instantly after receiving fatal wounds, as in
most rpgs. It not uncommon at all to have wounded persons die on the
operating table, on the way to the hospital etc. And we all know the
western legend of "gutshots".

IMHO, GURPS bleeding rules reflect this nicely (for added realism and/or
lethality you might add "internal bleeding" which would require better
medical care to counter).

> 	To clarify: odds are that someone of 15 HT can take a bazooka to 
> the chest and live in GURPS. 

I'm not going to restart the Anti-tank rocket as mankiller -flamewar. 

However, according to my High-Tech, bazooka does 6dx2(10) explosive. The
armor piercing effect does not apply to a human being, but the explosion
would be internal, or 5x damage. Explosion damage does not have a
blowthrough limit, so our hapless HT 15 "invincible" guy gets 6dx10
damage total, or an average of 350 points. This takers him to HTx-22 and
slightly over... According to the rules, the body has been totally
destroyed TWICE, with some damage left over...

As a counter example, let's take a shot from a military laser rifle to
the vitals. Damage is 2d impaling per shot. Let's assume an average of 4
shots hitting. That's 8d basic damage, tripled for impaling vitals - an
average of 84 points. Blowthrough limit is 6xHT (vitals 3x, beam weapon
doubles). The average hit does not kill our HT 15 guy outright
(necessarily), even though he is at -69 hits and only 6 hits (bleeding...)
away from certain death.  With only a slightly better roll (2 points
higher total) he'd be very much dead (funny thing, blowthrough 6xHT
allows this nicely).

The lesson is this: As any hunter will tell you, a proper hit to the
vital zone is absolutely necessary for a clean, one-shot kill.

Besides, I still haven't seen a PC with HT15... 


--------
maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio)
Sweet Oblivion (+358 0 8092678, V.32bis 8N1) Official SRP Headquarters
From: jbridson@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Character Development - pointwise
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:35:21 GMT
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada

Here's an idea on simulating natural character growth.
 
For every 2 developpment points spent (or points gained in a particular 
skill/stat) you must *subtract* one point (from a skill/stat).

Or whatever ratio you think is proper.

Basically, this will mean that the player slowly devalues the stats/skills 
that are of no use to the character (that s/he doesn't often use) and 
increase those of importance.  A simple way of simulating "rusty" skills.
 
Of course, I'm not sure what the best tactic is in adapting this to GURPS 
or other exponential point systems... maybe record exactly how many points 
are spent in a skill/stat.  So you can have somthing like 13 Agility + 2 
points [towards 14].

(btw, sorry about this not being a proper follow-up... the news software is 
behaving strangely)
 
---Robert Bridson--using the account of JBridson.
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Super rp's
Date: 4 Oct 92 13:58:33 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

> gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Grant R. Davis) writes:
>>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>>>	OTOH, the multiple action rules are unbalanced and not well 
>>>integreted, IMO. Anyone who buys up his Move not only gets a Dodge that 
>>>makes him immune to almost anything - 
>>
>>Maximum dodge is 8.


	No, maximum PD is 8.

Brandon Cope

Organization: Masters student, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: ptee@jyu.fi (Tuomas Eerola)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp
Subject: Milleniums end
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:06:26 GMT
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland


	Have anybody played "Milleniums end"? It's neat and fast paced
	Techno-Thriller game, although much more realistic realistic  
	setting than cybergames and Top secrets....
	 The year is 1999 and all background materials & stuff are very
	professional & realistic. The company that publishes it, is 
	called ( I think..) "Chameleon Eclectic enterprises" and the
	system is quite like BTRC's Timelords/Warpworld. 
	   WE prefer BTRC 's system, but for background/games, these
	productions are just brilliant.

	It's a pity that small companies don't have as wide audience as
	bigger ones, because in most cases, their material is just better.

	Does anybody recognize these systems?    (Feel free to comment)
	Any opinions about smaller companies....?  ( OK, their layout &
	 graphics are made with low budget and so on, but the IDEA is that
	what counts....)

	ptee@lancelot.jyu.fi		Tuomas Eerola

	(currently doing his Military Service, please email directly, if
	 you want comment straight to me....       thanks.  )


-- 
_________________________________________________________________________
	            W A R N I N G !  
      Messages can contain language and concepts which some people 
      may find offensive! If you are easily offended, Don't read this !
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: fastjack@cwis.unomaha.edu (John M. Scheibeler)
Subject: Re: Superhero rp
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 04:01:08 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:


>To clarify a little: I suppose my main problem with Champions in a
>Wildcards type setting is the exponential progression built into
>the rules.  In Wildcards, the strongest bricks are strong enough to
>kill a normal with one punch.  But they could not lift as much as
>a typical Champions brick could lift.

	Oh yeah?  It was noted in some book that The Great and Powerful
Turtle lifted a battleship with his TK, and Golden Boy lifts Tanks like
they were made of papier-mache.  In CHAMPIONS, the Turtle would be rated at
100 STR, and Golden Boy at 55 STR.  Even the Harlem Hammer lifts about that
much weight.  And according to the HSRB, a 55 STR is "average" for most
bricks in most campaigns.

>Joe Dzikiewicz

fj

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: wildcard@nevada.edu ( WildCard !!)
Subject: Re: Shadowrun and Death 
Organization: Shadowland BBS, Medica Division
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 17:44:37 GMT


In article <UemaSiG00Vp5IObXof@andrew.cmu.edu> Brian Bankler <bb2u+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>	Fix #1)  Remove Heal spells.  I used to say Don't allow healing
> [comentary deleted for the sake of brevity]

The only problem that I have with this is that "traditionally" magic has been
used (in myths etc.) for healing and divination. Fireballs as far as I could
tell, have never entered traditional stores of magic. Plagues, yes. I think
healing is a integral part of "magic."
Although I like the idea of limiting healing magic, so that it isn't like an
easy "Ressurection" spell.

>	Fix #2)  If the GM says your dead, you are dead.  Use your
                    [ inserted negative text here ]

OH YEAH! I love this one (well I'm the GM though). I often invoke "reality"
into my SR game. ie instant death for instant death situations like using
monofiliment for a garrote.

>	Fix #3)  Shoot the mage first.  Quite logical.  If I am on another
                     [ deletia ]

Quite logical and often used in my campaign. Anyone not carrying a medium
sized gun may as well have a neon bulls-eye on their forehead (mages and
mercs, and some sams).

>	I don't always run high-death campaigns.  But, if I think that
>death should be a part of a campaign (as the original poster certainly
                     [ further deletia ]

I couldn't agree more. Instead of high death campaigns, I prefer to use
"high pain" campaigns. I don't like to kill PCs (especially if they are
*charatcers* instead of numbers) butI do like to give them a bloody nose.
Kill contacts or NPCs on a regular basis but have the PCs survive just
barely (unless they are really on the ball and intelligent then they can
succeed with minimal failure). IMO, the PCs should survive should only really
succeed wellif they are exemplary. If they blunder/muddle through the runs,
they deserve to be dumped in a filthy back alley because the doctor won't
treat them, etc...

If they act like good (possibly great) and smart runners, they deserve to
live a good life.
If they are clueless psychopaths, they deserve to be seriously debilitated
or even dead.
Remeber, shadowrunning isn't a "game" it has high stakes and high rewards.
but if you lose....

                                    - WildCard !!

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
+  "It's like Sartre said,'Consciousness (in this case The Matrix) is a being +
+  such that in its being, its being is in question insofar as this being im- +
+  plies a being other than itself.' Profound? Maybe.I dont think it matters."+
+                                   - WildCard !!                             +
+                                     [ "Plex Personalities," Shadowland BBS] +
+--------  wildcard@redrock.nevada.edu  --------------------------------------+





Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: sjs28257@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Stelter)
Subject: Re: State of the art
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 01:27:46 GMT

cm182s182@pdrome.UUCP (Clayton Miner) writes:

>Regading TORG:  My only complain was the need to go out and buy $114.00 worth 
>of suplements to find out what was really going on...

True.  Luckily, though, all of the realm sourcebooks are out, and WEG has
mentioned that no new realms are going to be landing for a while (if at
all).  I think most of the new Torg products for a while will be adventures
and so forth, products that won't be necessary to buy to keep updated on
what's going on in the Possibility Wars.


                               --Steve Stelter
                                 sjs28257@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:2581 rec.games.design:1656
From: jogle@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re: State of the art
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 03:05:05 GMT

In article <mumble> cm182s182@pdrome.UUCP (Clayton Miner) writes:

>Regading TORG:  My only complain was the need to go out and buy $114.00 worth 
>of suplements to find out what was really going on...

To be fair, almost every "big" RPG these days is guilty of the "you
have to buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff to know everything
about this game" syndrome.  With multi-genre games like TORG or GURPS
you really can't avoid this problem though, since each different genre
is going to produce a sourcebook-sized pile of information.

-- 
Kansas Jim (Jim Ogle, TORG guru)                               /|
jogle@aoc.nrao.edu (NRAO-VLBA, Socorro New Mexico)           o| |-
"I'd be apathetic if I cared."                              /|\\|