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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:57:54 -0500
From:         Andrew Allen <E7L8ALL@TOWSONVX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Look back and wrangle...the poverty thing again

>>Now that Peter has informed Brett', -andy and whomever else is on the
>>"gee I think we're overestimating the numbers of poor" bandwagon that
>>the figures that they are gnawing on aren't the ones that determine
>>how much money the government spends on the poor,

>Peter was wrong.  The "more money" argument is "there are x%/million
>poor people".  It turns out that the defn of "poor" being used is
>"interesting".  The fact that, in some cases, said "poor" aren't even
>eligible for the aid argued for doesn't significantly affect the
>dishonesty of that argument.

Andy, I agree with you that the official poverty number is poorly
drawn up, I agree that the criteria used to generate it are not
the correct ones. I maintain though, that the number is low.


>>it appears that
>>they are going to revive the tired old Reaganista rhetoric about
>>fraud in the system...naturally they'll intimate that most folks
>>who receive aid have homes, sports cars, large cash incomes from
>>selling Amway, etc.

>It appears to whom?  That is O'Andy's invention; no one else has
>mentioned fraud.

Geez Andy, it would appear to anyone that reads and comprehends
english on a 6th grade level that what followed my comment was
a description by Brett' (who is someone else) of how "most
people" work out a means to obtain government aid intended
for the poor fraudulently.

Brett' later restated his position to be that he meant to show
the means by which most people who defraud the government
poverty programs do so.

sheesh. buy a grammar text or something, big guy.


>Hmm.  Does O'Andy now want to argue that my grandfather is poor?  (He
>transferred almost of his assets to my grandmother.)  How much aid
>should he receive?

Is he applying for government assistance? Why don't you ask him to
give it a try and see what he gets...

>Whether or not a practice is "fraud" does not depend on how many
>people do it.

Whether or not it is a rampant problem, does depend on that.

>-andy

-other Andy
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:58:35 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rape After Rape After Rape
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

        I've been arguing for intervention since the Serbs invaded Slovenia
many months ago.

        I hope those who have been arguing that "it's too hard" or "we'll just
make it worse" are enjoying the harvest of the Muslims and Croats.

        We promised "never again".  It appears we meant "...if it's not too
hard" or "...as long as there aren't non-xians involved".

        Sure some of us (Americans and Euros) will die saving the region from
the Serbs, but I hope people see the price of the alternative.

        Merry Christmas.

Brett'
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:30:00 AST
From:         Ramon <R_ALEMAN@UPR1.UPR.CLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: An apology ...
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

>>
>> I ended up sending "On Rightism..." twice (thrice if you include the one
>> rejected for being an empty file). Sorry about that. Both the second and
>> third posting are exactly the same, and I'm sorry that they got loose like
>> that. VMS
>>
>I suspect you have sent it twice just because there is a chance more people
>will catch up and read it. Another example of convincing by VOLUME.

    And, of course, there is the little matter of its scholarly content
being both right, (as in "correct" :-), and very well-researched.

                                                Ramon
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 11:46:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Uncl: Re: your mail

>Not to confuse Robert; but actually there is an abnormally large number
>of homosexuals in SF given the normal distribution of that trait in the
>population.

the reason why is because robert, travis, pizz and caius do not live in SF.

-linda

>-other Andy
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:22:33 -0500
From:         Andrew Allen <E7L8ALL@TOWSONVX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: progressive tax?

>Progressive tax prevents the wealthy from paying their bills to the poor,
>saving in the banks, and producing more jobs.

Huh? Are you saying that a) the wealthy have an obligation to the poor,
b) that they are prevented from fulfilling it due to the relative
size of their tax burden?

If so what is the obligation, how much does it amount to and how does
it compare to the size of their tax payments?

Do the wealthy have an obligation to provide jobs, bank deposits?

These would seem odd assertions from a conservative.

>Caius

-other Andy
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:10:00 EDT
From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: NORNAL

Caius:

        You're really going where no one has gone before, eh?

        Now your understanding of a disorder is based upon whether or not
a society with such "disorder" can last?  Well, let me see....

        There are a heck of a lot of us out there who feel that capitalism
is one of the worst injustices ever created!  Maybe we'd even go so far as to
say it's a "disorder".  How does that jibe with your understanding that dis-
orders destroy societies?

        Silly analogies aside, your post really makes no sense.


-T.
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:53:07 EST
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Discrimination of various kinds

>From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
>
>Just one correction for Jamie:
>
>        it's "Anti-Papism".

"Popism" is also a good word, though. It's a nominalization of
"popish," a disparaging term for "Catholic."

Thanks anyway, though.

Jamie
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:04:42 EST
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Numbers

Oh heavens. What a mass of confusion about numbers we are
up to our necks in.

From:         JCOCURUL@DREW.DREW.EDU

>than why the "2"?  wouldn't "b" be enough since infinity (is this
>really a number? some say it isn't) is the largest number anyhow.

Well, it's too complicated to explainin now. If you really want to know
I will explain privately.
"Infinity" isn't really a number. But there are some infinite
numbers. There are different kinds, too.
And for sure, there is NO largest number. That's a theorem of
every number theory ever developed.

From:         jimmy donal wales <jwales@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

>I've described my number, even though I haven't actually written it
>down.  This is much like considering the sentence that comes first
>in an alphabetized list of sentences written in English which have
>100 words.

It isn't sufficiently like that. Your description changes
reference over time. Are you willing to fix a time and have
your description pick out whatever number it refers to at
that time? Or not?

From:         "rufus t. firefly" <U9AA@SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU>

>just a pissing contest, and rationality has nothing to do with it.
>far better just to stand back and laugh . . . then dump it.

Oh dear, I was afraid this would happen.
It has a whole lot to do with rationality, Rufus, though
admittedly nothing to do with politics. But....

Let me tie it in to politics now.

We often see utilitarian justifications for government policies.
Even such libertarian groups as the ACLU often give utilitarian
justifications. But we can prove that utilitarianism is rotten
at its foundations!

Utilitarianism takes as axiomatic that the best laws, actions,
institutions, etc., are those which produce the greatest
happiness for the greatest number.

But as all number theorists know, and as I asserted above
in my reply to Joe, there IS no greatest number!

Thus utilitarianism tumbles.

In solidarity with all prime numbers,

Jamie
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:20:00 EDT
From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: 70% Human

Linda, could you fix some hot soup for Tim?  The kid could really use
some TLC right now...and see if you could break that fever while you're at
it...

Tim fevers:
>  actually, what I really object to is the
>hypocrisy of those people who say "hey women
>are making only $0.70 to the dollar" but
>who ignore the fact that the latin american
>worker and workers in other third world
>countries are making even less.

So let me get this straight:

Whenever someone points out an injustice in American society, they must also
point out _disparate_ injustices, in other countries, that have _nothing at
all_ to do with the original injustice?

"actually, what I really object to is the hypocrisy of those people who say
'hey blacks aren't allowed to enroll in the University of Alabama' but who
ignore the fact that the Saudi Arabian women and women in other muslim
countries have to wear veils on their faces."

The earning power of oppressed workers in Latin America has nothing to do
with the fact of gender pay discrimination in the US.

Even if it did, how would pointing out such discrimination:

        1. Be "hypocritical"?

        2. Automatically "ignore" the plight of Latin workers?

It just doesn't make sense.  Have you been reading Caius too carefully?



>  (btw, "pick at" is something people do to
>scabs and sores and blisters.)
>
>                    -Tim

So why not leave yours alone?  The action seems to have a deleterious effect
on at least some of us....

-T.
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:47:45 -0500
From:         Andrew Allen <E7L8ALL@TOWSONVX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Home ownership among the poor es

>        When you give a bureaucracy N billion, it will spend N billion whether
>it can find N billion worth of recipients or not.

Can you provide some meaningful stats that will show that a significant
amount of money appropriated by congress to be paid as income support
is being diverted by agencies to other purposes? (By this I mean are
agencies using targetted funds for things in-house other than for which
they were intended, salaries, supplies, office redecoration, etc.)

>        Which leads certain hospitals to spend medicaid dollars on Super Bowl
>tickets....

As I understand it medicaid is paid out on a per-use basis, not as a
general lump sum aid to facilities, which would allow a discretionary
use of funding. What I am driving at is that there are no over-allocation
of funds that causes a surplus that the hospitals find they need to
"use or lose;" what we are talking about is the presentation of
fraudulent claims. If this fraud is as widespread as you intimate
then the FBI ought to get on it and start busting some hospital
administrators and doctors, right? Who knows, maybe it would
revolutionize the prison health care system...not to mention
all of those community service hours that could be put to good
use by VA hospitals and inner city clinics... B)

>Brett'

-other Andy
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 12:46:00 EDT
From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Happy etc

Going' away for the, well, I guess most would call 'em holidays.

Happy Kwaanza, Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, and all that - to all.

Setting to NOMAIL so have fun, all you leftists and rightists and centrists
and progressives and protectionists and cooperationists and marxists and
capitalists and communists and pragmatists and humanists and sexists and
regressives and racists, etc etc etc......

Continue to rasp and gasp and quibble and dribble and fight and attack
and misunderstand and take offense and give offense and occassionally
(namely, when Val posts) come up with something brilliant.


See y'all next year.....


-T.


Enjoy not seeing the above sig for awhile!
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 07:21:54 CST
From:         "rufus t. firefly" <U9AA@SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Yesterday's appointments, and tomorrow's
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> Who do you think will be Surgeon General?
>
> Evelyn Duncan

  kevorkian.

rtf
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: jwales@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (jimmy donal wales)
Subject: Recent List History for Ramon
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:28:44 GMT

Actually, this is also some old list history for some of you, too.

This list used to be a dictatorship.  Ramon was the dictator.  He
got sick of it after awhile and vanished.  There was much anarchy.

Recently, Ramon, the list held an election for President.  I was the
winner, so now I'm list president.  However, there do appear to be
some anti-democratic forces around, a false-pretender to the Presidency,
and other such rot.

But probably not so much anti-democratic sentiment as to allow you to
regain control.

--Jimbo
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:02:31 EST
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: racism

(Aside: does anyone else find it humorous that there is an
ongoing thread with the header "NORNAL"?)

>From:         David Clem <$GET@PCCJES2.BITNET>

>Ellen says:
>
>> As for your points about Affirmative Action and other programs, I
>> tend not to believe in quotas, and I'm glad our incoming president
>> doesn't seem to be too keen on them either.  But they are not
>> racist programs, in my view.  They are not about one group of people
>> >in power< oppressing a whole other group of people.
>
>Note: I will use Kerry's definitions of "bigotry", "discrimination",
>and "racism".
>
>How are these programs not racist?  That the "whole other group
>of people" may share the same race as the "one group of people
>in power" is beside the point, if the effect: discrimination
>based on race, is the same. (I'm assuming Ellen's definition of
>racism is the same as Kerry's).

I'm not going to answer this, since (a) it was addressed to Ellen,
and (b) I've discussed it several times on the list (pre-Clem),
and I'm a bit tired of it.
However, I essentially share Kerry's definitions (I think, I don't
exactly remember them). And I agree with Ellen that Affirmative
Action is not racist. (Though not, I think, for her reasons.)

Or I might put it more clearly by steering clear of any possible
terminological disputes*:

I think there is an important difference between Affirmative Action
and the kind of racial discrimination against blacks that was
very prevalent in the 50's and remains, more covert, today.

So, David, or Hoss, or Jersey, or whatever your real name is,
keep me in mind.

Jamie

*Actually, I'm not steering completely clear, because there are
often disputes about what exactly "Affirmative Action" means,
but I what can you do, you have to use SOME words. Blgns?
J
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 10:28:00 EST
From:         JCOCURUL@DREW.DREW.EDU
Subject:      Re: the world's policeman
Comments: To: politics@ohstvma.bitnet

In article <tfilt424508@drew.edu>, fred <CCHILDER@UNMCVM.BITNET> writes:
>
> Bobby Fischer, former world chess champion is going to have his earnings
> confiscated by the U.S. because of violation of economic sanctions
> against Yugoslavia. He could possibly be deported or sent to jail. Boy,
> I'm glad we have our best minds working on solutions to world problems.
>
> fred

what's your problem?  if economic sanctions are to work, we can't have
U.S. citizens going to the boycotted countries for profit, and in the
process breaking the word and spirit of the sanctions.  If during the
period of economic sanctions (don't we still have some) on South
Africa Bobby Fischer went there for the chess tournament and profited
from it would you still object?   Either reject the idea of sanctions
or don't criticize punishment for very public violations of them.

    -Joe
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From: jwales@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (jimmy donal wales)
Subject: Re: Discrimination of various kinds
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:01:07 GMT

This whole thing is my fault, with the dictionaries.  I quoted
a dictionary twice in the last month (once for 'an' and once
for 'racist' and 'bigot'), and now everyone wants in on the
action.

>  Speaking of that, -T., your dictionary, the one you
>quoted to Jen, what did it say about the 'H' in 'historian'
>vs. the 'H' in history.  As I recall, you last said that
>one was aspirated, the other not, in normal american usage.

-T. was quoting from a post of mine, I think, from my online
dictionary.  It says that 'historian' has the accent on the
second syllable, thus making it at least eligible for 'an',
whereas 'history' has the accent on the first syllable, thus
disqualifying it.

A history book written by an historian is an honorable gift.

Sad, isn't it, that depths I've fallen to, defending -T. in
a squabble over 'a/an'.

--Jimbo


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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 07:37:29 EST
From:         jc-s <GE777009@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: An Historian

>From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
>
>In response to Tim's cute request about AN HISTORIAN, I'll refer him to
>Jimbo's post of a while back...I like his dictionary a lot...
>
>>       (3) frequently before h-initial words which have in an initial
>>       unstressed syllable an /h/ sound often lost after the [an]
>>
>Hmm..."h-initial words which have in an initial unstressed syllable an /h/
>sound often lost after the [an]"....hmmmmm.....*what* word does that make me
>think of?  Couldn't be HISTORIAN, could it?  Let's take a look:
>
>HISTORIAN
>H-initial word:                         CHECK
>Initial unstressed syllable:            CHECK
>/h/ sound lost after the [an]:          CHECK
>
>Yeah, I guess that WAS the word that the dictionary definition made me think
>of....HISTORIAN....as in AN HISTORIAN....as in THIS IS AN HISTORIAN'S LAST
>POST ON THIS ISSUE....
>
>-T.

So, does that mean you aren't actually going to read aloud from
your own dictionary??

I looked it up myself, see, because i was curious.  Not that Tim is
often wrong mind you.

I was able to get this out of the definition of history, which
i feel is darn close to historian.

5. An interesting past: _a house with a history_.

And while i was in that area of the dictionary i found a few
more words to share with you.

hirsute
histrionic
and my new favorite: hircine.

Jenna
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 09:41:27 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: andy f. quietly declares class warfare on the "rivet-heads"
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>other Andy:
>Brett' says:
>>        I've seen just as much class warfare from those stating that
>>proportionally more taxes should be taken from the rich simply because "they
>>have it".  Why is this acceptable when supposedly targetting the poor is not?
>
>Brett', does a progressive tax structure deprive the wealthy of having
>the basic necessities? Does it deprive them of a meaningful reward for
>their labors?

        So the government should just seize all income above, say, $25k?

        I don't think so.  Like I said, taking it because "they have it" is
class warfare.

>Don't forget that .30 of every tax dollar collected is transferred into
>the hands of the wealthy as interest payment on the debt, effectively
>lowering their rate. In other words, progressivity is an attempt to
>cause the wealthy to pay the same real rate that everyone else does.
>The attempt usually fails.

        Just because the government borrows money does not mean it falls into
the hands of "the rich".  Pension plans, banks, individuals (of all income
levels), universities, etc. all hold government securities.

        Each and every person has the choice to invest in a government
security.  Crying because those that do actually get a positive return on their
investment is simply envy.

>>        Just wondering about double standards....
>
>Let's create a reasonable standard of living that everyone can reasonably
>attain, then we'll worry about double standards.

        Let's not rob Peter to pay Mary.

>-other Andy
Brett'
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:12:06 -0500
From:         Andrew Allen <E7L8ALL@TOWSONVX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Words

>>I think it's time for concession, Jame.

>So do I. Only we disagree about who should issue it.

Good grief, what's next, Pope torts? B)

>Jamie

-other Andy
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