HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re: Faith(Science)
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:17:14 GMT

Brian Postow(bpostow@occs.oberlin.edu) grumbles:
 ! faith(science) should also have to be able to limit high tech
 ! "miracles of technology" stuff at the high end of the tech spectrum

no reason not to.
just remember that the miracle will not efect tech belived to be possible,
regardless of whether or not it is currently possible.
(a CE Faith(science)-ist will not be able to deny NT computers,
 or Papacy lasers, but possibly FTL or nanites)

 ! I don't know, but I still don't like the idea, it is still too similar
 ! to reality storming, and what clinches it for me is that WEG put a
 ! very large disadvantage to using Reality as a weopon, namely that it
 ! gets everyone else involved and they don;'t like it. THis faith is too
 ! simmilar, and yet I don't see any equivalent limitations to keep
 ! people from abusing it. 

i fel that the limitations on miracles are suficient -
fail, and lose it for a day
a Prated can reality storm from here to next week, loosing every time,
since you do not lose the reality skill, just the adds
(which we had - a character lost a storm, and the walked in and out 
 of the storm around london.  he will never blow up, since he is 
 still Prated, though almost any storm result will transform him)

also, the Faith(science) miracles will never fully tranform the
recipient(victim).  it only denies or weakens the current single effect,
and only has lasting effects under a spectacular result, no different
from the effects of any other miracle

 ! SO, summing it up, I think that the mechanism is faulty, and doesn't
 ! fit under the heading of Faith, and I think that it unbalances the
 ! game.

1) the mechinism is that of miracles - are they faulty?
   (also, i have given no actual mechanism, just broad fuzzy outlines)
2) it certainly isnt Reality, since CE scientists deny Psi (Geller vs Randi),
   and they can deny magic from Ords and Prateds equally
3) any miracle that is not held in check by the GM will unbalance the game.
   by definition, i am asking an omnipotent power source to do my bidding -
   if that is not "unbalancing" i dont know what is

dave "any other opinions out there, or are you all just yella'?" oakes
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Faith(Science)
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:15:15 GMT

> 
> > However, I'll bet you that no Ayslish mage has ever observed a limit
> > to the speed of light, or the Theory of Relativity.  Anyone up for a
> > FTL travel spell?
> 
> 	You mean something like a teleport spell with a speed that is high 

It'd be easier to fly quickly than teleport quickly - but you still need
a speed of 47 or so to go as fast that light as I recall - 52 would be
10x lightspeed, a respectable speed.  Add another 15 for mass (good enough
for 1000kg payload), and you are talking about a 67 effect value spell.

This is not particularly easy.  Someone with very high stats and/or magical
skills *might* be able to pull it off, but I don't think a PC could do it
(at least without cheating).  Given the sort of skill to pull this off,
making the duration 48 or so (100 years unless I missed a decimal point) and
building some control transfer into the spell should be *relatively* easy.
This results in a magical FTL vehicle.  However, it'd still take 6 months
to go even 5 light years - one might have to up the speed some more....

There isn't anyplace in Aysle to really use such a spell, given that the
world is a disk, and the sun travels around and goes down through the
hole in the center (as I recall) - there aren't any distant star systems
in Aysle that I know of.  This means that it'd have to be cast in another
cosm.  I would strongly advise *NOT* disconnecting while using said vehicle
in that event........

I've got to wonder if there is an easier way.  There is mention of
'dimensional gates' to other realms.  It's not clear that physical distance
in the real universe would be an obstacle to dimensonal travel - find a small
'pocket universe', and 'step around' the intervening distance (a lot like 
hyperspace in SF).

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re: Atheism
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Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:32:40 GMT

Andrew David Weiland <aw1s+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
 ! I didn't say that magic was the same as science, just that magic worked
 ! similar to science.  The laws of magic aren't the same as scientific
 ! principles, but they're just as difficult to break.  Magic works
 ! according to formulas that apply to every cosm, while there rules for
 ! creating miracles vary from cosm to cosm and within the cosms by
 ! different faith.  The formulas of magic are more flexible than science
 ! in some areas, less so in others; but they're no more and no less
 ! dependent upon belief.

the only reason that there are "rules" for creating magic
(besides the obvious - its a game, there must be rules)
is that the very magical cosm (Aysle) has a social axiom greater than 10

without the ability to do "science," there would be no set rules.
also realise that these rules really only apply to Aysle -
"scientific principles" that were unbreakable at tech 15
are considered laughable at tech 23, and i am sure that
the speed of light being constant seems bent to the SGs...

the rules work for that magical axiom.
they may be refinements of rules from a lower axiom,
but the rules as given are only appropriate to Aysle, circa near now.

dave "so how about those tech creation rules..." oakes
From: burt@ptltd.com (Burton Choinski)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Penetration
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:32:47 GMT
Organization: University of North Texas
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Well, I just found my old morrow project book.  It has the following info:
Concrete Thickness     C-4 needed
   .5m                   3.5kg
   .6m                   4.8kg
   .8m                   9.2kg
   .9m                  13.2kg
  1.1m                  21.0kg
  1.2m                  31.2kg
  1.4m                  44.7kg
  1.5m                  48.1kg

The above weights produce a man-sized hole.

Given how much of the MP was taken from military manuals, this may be right out
a demolitions manual.  Sean, does this seem right?  If so, it could be a
baseline to work with.
    -- Burton
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Colin J. Wynne"  <WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Faith(Science)
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 13:40:07 GMT

bpostow@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow) writes:

> faith(science) should also have to be able to limit high tech
> "miracles of technology" stuff at the high end of the tech
> spectrum that looks like magic, for example, faster than light
> travel is a tech of like 28 or so [I may be way off on the number,
> but there is a number] and a CE scientist will not believe in
> faster than light travel. and there are probably other things in
> the tech spectrum that could be disbelieved by a CE scientist.

However, I'll bet you that no Ayslish mage has ever observed a limit
to the speed of light, or the Theory of Relativity.  Anyone up for a
FTL travel spell?

CJW

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>                                         wynne.c.j@p9955.wlu.edu  >>
==  Colin J. Wynne                                  - or -          ==
<<                                      wynne.c@fs.science.wlu.edu  <<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: michael@stb.info.com (Michael Gersten)
Subject: Spell Design example; Q: Making a permenent spell?
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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:27:00 GMT

Begin forwarded message:

> ALWAYS spend time on these. If you spend 2 weeks you get a value of +2  

> (average value of +1); it is better to use half as many theorems at 2 weeks  

> instead.

The *value* of 2 weeks would be +1, not +2 (actually 1.5 weeks would be +1
and 2.5 weeks would be +2). 

---

Actually, I just use the simple approx: One=1, 2=2, 3-4=3, then look it up.

So two weeks is +2, or expected value +1.

(Yes, I only let my mages spend full weeks on the theorems.)--
		Michael Gersten		michael@stb.info.com
HELLO! I'm a signature virus! Join in the fun and copy me into yours!
ex:.-1,. w $HOME/.signature
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Terence A. Wynne" <taw8h@uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis spell
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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:33:42 GMT

The spell need only last one second to start the cyberpsychotic episode. 
Thereafter, it's a natural thing and doesn't need any help.  As I understand
it, the spark that starts the cyberpsychotic episode may be instantaneous,
but the episode progresses on its own from there.  If you shoot someone with
a bullet spell, the guy keeps bleeding after the spell is over with.


 
There is never time to do it right, but there is always time to do it
over. -- Murphy

Terence Wynne
taw8h@uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU 

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Was ist TORG?
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Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 23:29:34 GMT

> 
> TORG sounds like a save versus skill based FRP game, but I've never
> heard of it. Where is it to be found?

There really aren't any 'saving throws' in TORG - I'd describe it as
more of a skill vs. skill system.

Probably the biggest feature of TORG is its idea of 'possibility energy'.
This is stricly limited in amount, but allows one to 'buy off' incoming
damage and increase outgoing skill rolls - and counter a use of possibility
energy used against a person with the same ability.  It's next biggest
feature is the way it integrates a lot of different universes and handles
'reality conflicts' and 'disconnection'.  (Others may rank these two
features differently in importance.)

TORG is published by West End Games - and should be available from most
stores which stock role-playing games and funny dice.
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "James H. Kiley" <jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Possiblity Healing
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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 13:38:47 GMT



On Tue, 21 Jul 1992, Michael Yacht wrote:

> 
> 
> Ok, here goes a Question for all you rules Guru's:
> 
> I am a new GM, so I need to clear something up.  When you use a possibility to 
> hear a 'just inflicted' set of damage it says you can do 3 of the following:
> 1. heal 1 wound
> 2. remove 3 shock
> 3. remove a knockout condition
> 4. remove a knockdown
> 
> My question is can you do more than one of these...IE:
> 
> if I just took 3Wound KO 5, and I already had 2wound, my character is in fear 
> of dying...forget the KO and the shock.  Can I use my 'remove damage' 
> possibility to remove say...all 3 wounds, leaving a KO and 5 shock???
> 
> -Specter

Yup.
Just remember that it can only be used to heal the damage you *just* took,
sorta pretend that it never occurred, in true heroic fashion.
 
> 
> 
> -Mike Yacht
> -Carnegie Mellon University -- School of Computer Science
> ====================================================================
> Mike Yacht             || specter+@CMU.EDU
> 

Jim Kiley, Astronomer Wannabe
jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu
The_Gaunt_Man @ TorgMUSH, coming soon. :)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: cpearce%nemesis@nemesis.acs.unt.edu (Chris Pearce)
Subject: Re:  Mission in the Nile Empire, the real version!
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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 03:26:08 GMT

> Then, of course, there's Viscount Brenden "Only a K 1?  Hah!  Oops,
> where'd that O come from?" Llewelyn...

You can't take an O unless you've already taken a K result. So Brenden
could not have been in the position of taking K 1 then then becoming
knocked out by KO.

Rules:

   * You can not take an O unless you have taken a K. Ignore any
     O's received if K's are not in effect.
   * If you have taken a K, and receive another K result, you
     take 2 shock instead of the K (and in addition to any
     explicitly-mentioned shock damage).

> Thanks for the comments.  Scenes 2 and 3 coming real soon.

I enjoyed the story. Keep posting 'em!

> CJW
-- 
Chris Pearce -- cpearce@nemesis.acs.unt.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Was ist TORG?
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:00:53 GMT

TORG sounds like a save versus skill based FRP game, but I've never
heard of it. Where is it to be found?
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: A Sean Sort Of Question (WWII rifle - panzerbusche)
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:24:33 GMT

<stats omitted>

> The only weapon meeting this description that I recall is the
> 'squeeze-bore' 28/20mm antitank rifle -- it squeezed a tungsten-core
> 28mm shot down to 20mm at the muzzle. Are you sure about the caliber?

Yep.  The 28mm was listed too - this one is an actual hand-held rifle,
though, at 7.92mm (.312 inch) - and under 30lbs for the PB39 model  (The 28mm
was a wheeled field piece).  It is shown as having a built in tripod, for
what it is worth.  The picture shows someone prone, firing it, with the
barrel supported by the built in tripod.  I dunno what the recoil was like,
or how efffective firing it  without using the tripod would be.  Apparently
the same technology for the 28mm was also applied to a hand-held rifle.

I didn't copy the stats on the 28mm, but I think it would penetrate a lot
more than an inch of armor - though it still wasn't enough for tanks near
the end of the war.  [My impression was that the PB39 was designed for
lighter armored vehicles - what I'd call an AFV - and was similarly mostly
underpowered for its more restricted role by the middle of the war.  The
panzerfaust/bazooka were probably preferred.  Shooting a Torg character
with a bazooka would probably be effective, but just wouldn't seem sporting
:-)].

> Since the weapon was fixed-mount and incorporated sighting devices,
> these values need to get bumped a bit.

It wasn't fixed mount, as I mentioned above.

> The rounds the weapon fires are armor-piercing, and get the +1/-2
> modifier for armor penetration of living targets. Loading the weapon
> requires two rounds. The ammunition for this gun is expensive and
> rare; if the weapon is fired using a projectile material other than
> tungsten, excessive breech pressures will be generated, and the weapon
> will either jam or blow out the breech.

Earlier rounds had a hardened steel core - it would definitely require
specially designed ammo to work, though.

> The weapon was normally issued with a gunshield for the firer; treat
> this as TOU+5/18 armor when the firer is shot at from the direction
> the gun is pointing.

No gun shield on this one.  I'm not sure about the reloading time - I can
see it taking 1 round to reload normally.  (The breech of the 39 was operated
by sliding the pistol grip, the description said - the more complex and
heavier 38 had a an auotmatic ejector mechanism similar to those of artillery
pieces).  2 rounds seems reasonable for a field piece like the 28mm.
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Colin J. Wynne"  <WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Idea to be kicked about. (expanded)
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:39:21 GMT

bchapman@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Bruce Patrick Chapman) writes:

> > how do you deal with approved actions if the players do not
> > have cards.
>
> I had thought that approved actions were only there to give the
> players a way of getting cards. If the players do not have cards
> then or use cards then there is no point in approved actions and
> you do not need cards for initative. This idea was ment to replace
> the need for cards not add to it

I'm not really into this 'down 'n' dirty' TORG style being proposed.
The reason I play TORG is because of all the things that make it
different from other games -- which go right out the window in Econo-
TORG.

But I will offer a suggestion.  Perhaps succeeding in an approved
action will give a character an initiative bonus in the following
round based on the success level of the app. act.

CJW

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>                                         wynne.c.j@p9955.wlu.edu  >>
==  Colin J. Wynne                                  - or -          ==
<<                                      wynne.c@fs.science.wlu.edu  <<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim) <jogle@aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Re:  TORG axiom level?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Organization: University of North Texas
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Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:04:08 GMT

Well, a Social axiom of 17 is required to understand an 'arbitrary system
of measuring time...even when at odds with local time', which sounds
like the combat round to me.  I'd say actual role-playing systems would
require a bit higher, like a Social of 19 or so (19 isn't defined in 
the rulesbook so why not?)

Of course, Social 21 is also undefined, and it just happens to be the
Social axiom of Core Earth so RPGs may require Social 21 (hmmm, can we
date the beginning of Social 21 on Earth to around the time Gygax came
out with the original D&D stuff? 8-)

I also don't believe I'm responding to this question...hopefully the
Delphi Council Worldbook will be out soon and we can get some
discussions started (I'm sure there will be many, though hopefully not
too many of the 'they fucked it up again' variety) on that.

Kansas Jim (jogle@aoc.nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim) <jogle@aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Re:  Mission in the Nile Empire, the real version!
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 00:00:01 GMT

Colin writes:

[mostly deleted]

> Ignoring his assailant, he locked eyes with the captain, and smiled.
>     Elspeth was thrown to the deck as the reality storm sprang into

I hope Elspeth kicked his butt for invoking a reality storm like that
when she was right in the middle of it!

[...]

>     Strange shapes and odd-coloured lightning danced around Brenden,
> casting him into a bulkhead.  Consciousness slipped away, and he
> slumped to the deck.  Kyushu saw this, and ran to help, but the chaos
> of the storm battered him into oblivion, too, before he was halfway
> there.

I hope they helped Elspeth kick his butt!  Seemingly casual invoking
of reality storms is a very dangerous thing (maybe the situation was
more dire than it looks to me though and it was deemed justifiable).

>     Suspended in midair, Hannibal focused all the power available to
> him, and with a mighty surge of blue and red sparkling energy, the
> maelstrom dissipated.  The helpless captain was caught in the throws
> of CyberPsychosis as his limp form hit the water.  Hannibal landed on

Once you start a reality storm you cannot stop it until someone is
transformed.  Is that what happened, with the cyberpsychosis thrown in
just to make sure the captain drowned?


But overall, a nice story.  I liked some of the characterization bits,
especially the weretiger.





Kansas Jim (jogle@aoc.nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Deryni <RAGRIMES@VAX1.UMKC.EDU>
Subject: Posts/Day
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 21:00:00 GMT

Hiya, all!

     Now that I'm finally active again (i.e. have time to do more than
read subject lines and wish I knew what the discussion was), I have a
quick query.  Obviously, the easiest way to reply to things around here
is to reply to individual messages individually (i.e. hit a REP for
all twelve messages I want to respond to as they come across the
screen).  However, that generates a ton of mail.  Have any firm rules
been set up regarding # of posts/day?  If so, what's the recommended
number?  Note that I am NOT going to post 12 messages/day, no matter
how interesting the subjects.  :)  But, are 4 messages OK?  I know
a lot of lists have a limit of 2, or even 1.
     Thanks much!

Alavairthae!
  Deryniu
    aka Alan Grimes
      Literally limited (but can it be Pushed?)
From: gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Grant R. Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Induce Cyberpsychosis
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:24:32 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

I did a detailed followup, but the computer ate it, so I'll keep this short.
1)Magic 12 is not high enough to sit down and design a spell. Talk to your GM.
2)Only Conjuration magic produces illusions.
3)C-psycho checks don't happen all the time, so just casting a spell for one
seems unfair. Make it an illusion (Conjuration) and the effect is a Test of 
Will. If a Setback is gained, he has to make a regular check (unskilled and
stymie results apply normally, and Player's call is automatic C-psycho).

The Grant Man
gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

"This is good[beer]. Remind me to take this world."-Lost Destiny