HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bena@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Ben Aveling)
Subject: Re: Money to Middle East
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 10:32:47 GMT

Mark McCullough (mccullou@cae.wisc.edu) wrote:
: 
: why not take some of the grain that the government buys each year
: from farmers and use that?  This may not be popular with farmers,
: but stop discouraging farmers from producing as much as they can.
: (Farmers at least used to be paid to allow some fields lie fallow).
: This might even help some farmers today.  

	 ---                                 --
	|80%| of ALL farm subsidies goes to |1%| of Farmers !
	 ---                                 --

Don't it feel nice supporting millionaires ?  And remember, you pay twice
cause you also get to pay higher prices for the same stuff you've
already paid them to grow.   At the same time, the world price drops,
which means more subsidies are needed to give that 1% of farmers the
same return. And more subsidies, lower world prices, so more subsidies, 
so lower prices so ...

Farm subsidies, your Taxes at work.

	Ben
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: mccullou@cae.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough)
Subject: Money to Middle East
Organization: College of Engineering, Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison
Date: 9 Oct 92 11:19:31 CDT
Originator: mccullou@sun-16.cae.wisc.edu



Some people have been talking about how we should spend so much money
to buy grain for the hungry of the world.  Well, instead of that,
why not take some of the grain that the government buys each year
from farmers and use that?  This may not be popular with farmers,
but stop discouraging farmers from producing as much as they can.
(Farmers at least used to be paid to allow some fields lie fallow).
This might even help some farmers today.  We would have more surplus
food to give to those people and then would have only the classic
problem of distribution.  We would certainly be cutting some funds,
and grain is kind of hard to use as a weapon, unlike money for
dual use technology.
:)M^2
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: **** ANOTHER COVER-UP - Please read this... ****
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 16:36:11 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

> >jac54@cas.org writes:
> >
> >
> >Both George Bush and Saddam Hussein are covert operators, and they have
> >a well-established and well-documented relationship with one another, as
> >existed between Manuel Noriega and George Bush.
> >
> >There's no proof that such exchanges happened. At least, not publically.
> >But don't let that persuade you that it never happened. There is a lot
> >of evidence, and it will only accumulate as the years pass.

  I'd like everyone to read these two paragraphs carefully.  The first asserts
that GB and SH have "well-documented relationship".  The first two sentences of
the second says no public proof of this exists.  The last sentence states that
there is a lot of evidence!  This poster seems to be having trouble making up
his mind.  And even worse, drawing conclusions based upon things he *cannot*
know anything about (non-public, remember), unless he has some sort of special
contacts he's not telling us about.  Wow.

  This is not an apologia for Bush, it is an assualt on sloppy thinking.


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: **** ANOTHER COVER-UP - Please read this... ****
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:43:05 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.163611.20832@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
>> >jac54@cas.org writes:

    I didn't say the following.  That was the previous poster.  I
    couldn't come with a good rebuttal of this part of the argument
    off the top of my head, although I doubted it, so I just let it
    ride.  Oh dear, I'll have to check these things more carefully in
    future.

>> >
>> >
>> >Both George Bush and Saddam Hussein are covert operators, and they have
>> >a well-established and well-documented relationship with one another, as
>> >existed between Manuel Noriega and George Bush.
>> >
>> >There's no proof that such exchanges happened. At least, not publically.
>> >But don't let that persuade you that it never happened. There is a lot
>> >of evidence, and it will only accumulate as the years pass.
>
>  I'd like everyone to read these two paragraphs carefully.  The first asserts
>that GB and SH have "well-documented relationship".  The first two sentences of
>the second says no public proof of this exists.  The last sentence states that
>there is a lot of evidence!  This poster seems to be having trouble making up
>his mind.  And even worse, drawing conclusions based upon things he *cannot*
>know anything about (non-public, remember), unless he has some sort of special
>contacts he's not telling us about.  Wow.
>
>  This is not an apologia for Bush, it is an assualt on sloppy thinking.
>
	Yes, I should have spotted this myself.

>                                             Alec Chambers.
From: manuel@clt50bv.edf.fr (Jose Manuel ESTEVEZ "clt50bx")
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: Mike Royko Column
Date: 8 Oct 92 11:36:02 GMT
Organization: Electricite de France, DER, Clamart France


 In article <1992Sep28.134751.25328@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, mccullou@cae.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
|> What a lovely sentiment, how noble, how nice, how pacifist, HOW STUPID!
|> First of all, never try and claim that an electrical plant is not a military
|> target.  It is a very important military target.  It aids the AA systems
|> that shoot down our aircraft.  Also, you will note that Hussein himself,
|> and his close friends aren't exactly suffering.  Just like the royal
|> Kuwaiti family always had fresh water and power, even though most of his
|> countrymen didn't, Hussein always has fresh water and power.  War may be hell,
|> but how can you even _imply_ that 46900 lives are more significant than
|> more than 100,000 lives?  Or whatever the current population of Kuwait is.
|> How can you claim that it is more important to allow a dictator to take
|> any country he wants, do anything he wants, than to stop him.  It is
|> unfortunute that this was a cost of war, but, it is war, better to stop
|> Hussein quickly, then let him absorb Kuwait because he wanted better sea
|> access and the advanced technology in Kuwait.  You have talked about 
|> the ulterior motives of the US for intervening, but what of Iraq?  Who was
|> to stop Iraq?  How can you justify standing back and just letting it happen?
|> That kind of isolationism led to WWII.  Do you really want to see any kind of
|> major war anywhere now?  When modern weapons (only conventional now), can
|> devastate a major military power in 6 weeks, what would be done in say
|> 4 months?  Or a year?  This isolationist attitude that people have been
|> advocating leads directly into the cause of WWII.  Countries today are
|> interdependent.  We can't let them cut each other off, or to bits.  Maybe
|> Hussein should be removed from power, but once again, reality rears its
|> ugly head.  Who would replace him?  If the choice is in our hands, the ruler
|> is unlikely to be very popular and will probably suffer a similar fate as
|> the rulers of South Vietnam (while it existed as a country.)  If the choice
|> is in the hands of the current Iraqi government, the choice would be someone
|> less friendly to us than Hussein, and maybe a little more belligerent.
|> After all, what do they have to lose?
|> 
|> 					Mark

0) AA is not powered by electrical plant but is self powered
1) Saddam is always here
2) Kuwait is always not a democracy
3) Iraki people always suffer 
4) isolation of IRAK was the best way if all countries dont sell military material but all countries prefer sell like today yougoslavia


HELP  DEMOCRACIA
From: juha.veijalainen@compart.fi (Juha Veijalainen) 
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: **** ANOTHER COVER-UP
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:55:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: ComPart BBS, Helsinki-Finland, +358 0 506 3329 (14 lines V.32bis)
Reply-To: juha.veijalainen@compart.fi (Juha Veijalainen) 

Foxvog Douglas wrote:

FD>There were no UN troops involved in the war against Iraq.  So of cours
FD>the non-existant troops received no such orders.  This mislabeling of 
FD>troops as UN (I have only heard that US units used this tactic, please
FD>inform me if others did) is for purely propagandistic purposes.

[Some stuff deleted]

FD>It is interesting to find a Finn taking such a position as Finnish
FD>troops are very often used as UN peacekeeping troops (because Finns wa
FD>to "kippis" -), wearing the blue helmet.  Juha, no Finns nor UN troops
FD>were involved in the war against Iraq, so your support for the blue he
FD>should not influence your opinions about this war.

If you have a UN approved operation where all troops operate under UN 
mandate you got UN troops, in my opinion.  Most of them were from USA, but 
there were troops from over 30 countries.  For example, troops in Korea 
were called UN troops, because it was a UN action (USSR abstained from 
voting, when the Security council met).

I was never talking about UN _peacekeeping_ troops, which are a totally 
different thing.

---
 . WinQwk 2.0 a#152 . Mielipiteet omiani/Opinions personal/Facts suspect
                                                                                                 
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: mccullou@cae.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough)
Subject: US arms to Iraq
Organization: College of Engineering, Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison
Date: 7 Oct 92 12:24:32 CDT
Originator: mccullou@sun-8.cae.wisc.edu



From what I understand, it was not very many whole pieces, but lots of parts.
The Iraqi's probably had several Fim-92A Stingers.  I do remember them
having at least some M-109 SP arty's, as well as some M-110's.  The fact
that they had so many Mirage F.1C's is a pretty clear indicator that
France at least sold large amounts of arms to Iraq.  Not to mention the
French built Gazelles.  If anyone knows of other weapons Iraq got from
US, or other NATO members, please post it.  But I am interested in 
specifics, not "they sold arms"
:)M^2
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 16:53:16 EDT
From: <JMK134@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: No more *-GATE's

Iran-gate, Iraq-gate, Check-gate, Contra-gate, S&L-gate, stop with the gate's
already!  The botched burglary at the Watergate Hotel was about 20 years ago,
pales in comparison to illicit arm sales,etc., so let's come up with some new
scandel suffixes.  If we get four more years of Republican control of the admin
istration, the different 'gate's are going to get pretty tedious!
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: Burying of POWs, not in Combat [was: **** ANOTHER COVER-UP ]
From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man)
Date: 10 Oct 92 02:54:40 EST
Organization: Demonic Possesions, Inc.

In article <1992Oct8.042252.24091@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, bena@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Ben Aveling) writes:
...
> Ah yes Vietnam.  As American as Napalm and Agent Orange.  It was 
> a standard interogation technique there to take two EPOWs up in
> a Helicopter.  Ask one a few questions.  He dosen't answer?  Throw
> him out.  The other will tell you anything he thinks you want to
> hear.  Then throw him out anyway.  Lovely thing war.  I advise you to
> have nothing to do with it.

	You've been watching too many angst-Vietnam movies.

Brett                                                      
_______________________________________________________________________________
Proconsul Computer Consulting                                        CHA-CHING!
Better, Cheaper, Faster					       (Pick any two :)
Disclaimer:								   NOT!
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: **** ANOTHER COVER-UP - Please read this... ****
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:29:39 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Oct7.154445.27264@edf.fr> manuel@clt50bv.edf.fr writes:

> In article <1992Sep28.162826.26995@menudo.uh.edu>, HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
> |> In <1992Sep28.144405.1261@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> bobh@troy.uucp writes:
> |> 
> |> [lots deleted]
> |> > Then why didn't we nuke them and get it over with?  What a bonus, 100% Iraqi
> |> > casulties and 0% American casulties.  That's what it is about, right?  right?
> |> > 
> |> > -Bob
> |> 
> |>   Well, the Kuwaiti's would have been a little miffed...
>  		```````
> the maximun destructions where in Irak

  But most of the Iraqi army was in or very near Kuwait.  And even if restrict-
ed to Iraq, some fallout would likely have spread to Kuwait, and/or Saudi 
Arabia, Jordan, Turkey, Syria, Iran, the UAE, etc. depending on the prevaling
winds.

  Nuking would have been like going after a hamster with howitzer, and counter
productive to the goal of removing Iraq from Kuwait while leaving Kuwaitis
with something like a country to return to.

  Again I say:  The Kuwaiti's would have been a little miffed, not to mention
all the other countries I listed, plus most of the world.


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************
From: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Richard Beckett)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:40:27 GMT
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS and SOUL TRAVEL
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Labs, Bristol, UK
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Reply-To: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com


In article <1992Oct6.162312.1553@cnsvax.uwec.edu>,
mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
|>           
|> 
|>                       THE DIVINE MASTERS and SOUL TRAVEL 

	What's this got to do with the price of hampsters in Stroud on a 
	Saturday afternoon ?

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: aharris@javelin.sim.es.com (Alan Harris)
Subject: Re: near death exp.
Reply-To: aharris@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:22:14 GMT

A few years ago my father went to visit his uncle who was dieing in a 
nursing home in rural Utah.  He asked my uncle if he was afraid to die.
My uncle said that he was not afraid to die, in fact he was looking
forward to it.  He told my father of an experience he had many years
before.  He had never told anyone of this experience because he was 
afraid people would think he was crazy or just hallucinating.  This uncle
had serious heart problems and had a pacemaker put in.  This was back
when pacemakers were new and needed to have the batteries changed every
6 or 7 years.  He went into the vetrans administration hospital to have
his pacemaker changed.  He was prepped for the operation and put under
the anesthetic.  The next thing he knew, he was floating near the ceiling
of the operating room, looking down on the doctor and nurses working on
his body.  He saw them clearly and heard everything they were saying.  He
said they were very worried and were trying to get his heart started 
again.  The next thing he knew he woke up in the recovery room.  When the
doctor came in to see him the doctor said they had quite a scare. His heart
had stopped during the operation and they were unable to get it started 
for sometime.  The doctor said he didn't think he was going to make it.
This uncle told my father that while he was watching the operation he
had a very beautifull, peacefull feeling.  He said that after that exper-
ience he was not at all afraid to die.  He was afraid of the pain he would
suffer before he got there, (throat cancer) but not afraid of death.

This uncle was just a quiet farmer all his life.  He had never heard of
an O.B.E. or N.D.E.  He kept the experience to himself knowing that most
people would write it off as another one of those weird dreams under 
anesthesia.

Time to get on my soap box and get preachy.

The reason people like my uncle don't share their experiences is because
of people who carelessly treat another's deeply meaningfull experience
as if it was nothing.  I am NOT saying that these experiences are not to
be questioned.  I am NOT saying that you can not offer other explainations
for sommeone's experience.  I am saying that if you disagree you can do it
kindly.  There is room for kindness and consideration of another's feelings
even in applying the scientific method.  when someone shares a meaningfull
experience and then is treated as if they are stupid, then they learn to just
shut-up and not tell anyone.  People don't cast pearls before swine because
the swine don't understand the worth and beauty of a pearl.  If you treat
others experience as worthless, then they will simply stop sharing them.

Off my box.
From: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Richard Beckett)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 08:10:52 GMT
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS and SOUL TRAVEL
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Labs, Bristol, UK
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Reply-To: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com


In article <1992Oct8.204426.11344@nrtpa038.bnr.ca>, TARZAN writes:
|> In article <1992Oct07.134027.10217@hplb.hpl.hp.com> rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com
|> (Richard Beckett) writes:
|> >
|> >In article <1992Oct6.162312.1553@cnsvax.uwec.edu>,
|> >mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
|> >|>           
|> >|> 
|> >|>                       THE DIVINE MASTERS and SOUL TRAVEL 
|> >
|> >	What's this got to do with the price of hamsters in Stroud on a 
|> >	Saturday afternoon ?
|> >
|> >
|> JIHN HABBA ZOODOO.  PULAKA NABU.
|>

	Pardon ? 

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: TARZAN
Subject: Re: ahem....
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:33:14 GMT

In article <SBILES.92Oct10171354@dante.nmsu.edu> sbiles@nmsu.edu (Susannah E
Biles) writes:
>
>I find NO problem with posting stories!
>That is what this group is for! To post interesting stories and
>experiences in order to impart some interesting fact or some sort of
>information for us to discuss. 
>That does not mean that straight factual data cannot be posted
>either..there is room for both and I believe that trying to censor
>certain posts is insane...
>We are here to share our experiences with the subject of the news
>group and the story relating the experience of the woman who got stuck
>to a power transmission line is valid material especially considering
>there has been an ongoing debate over "energy" of astral bodies and
>there relation or lack thereof to other  power sources.
>IMHO All posts should be appreciated and not dismissed just because someone
>thinks that they should.
>Thanks for listening
>Susannah
>
  THANKS SUSANNAH.   TARZAN.

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: KHATCH@130.187.170.178 (kh)
Subject: Re: astral planes
Organization: Terra Incognita
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:52:39 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <JiPHsB1w165w@netlink.cts.com> jim@netlink.cts.com writes:


> Fortunately, there are many who appear to understand the 
> importance of observation at this stage of the game.  I would 
> encourage those of us who DO understand how important observation
> is to focus our efforts on sharing our EXPERIENCES in the most
> accurate and detailed way we can.  Indeed, specific experiments 
> with controls etc. are not nearly as important at this stage as 
> is simply gathering accurate subjective reports.

    I'd like to second this.  My interest is in determining the nature of the
experiences that I have had.  Several times I have posted accurate and careful
accounts of personal experiences and had someone respond by claiming that my
observations are incorrect. In every case this has been someone who has never
experienced an OBE but claimed to have a clearer knowledge than I due to
access to a higher source (i.e. a channelled entity). I hold to the claim that
personal experience is the highest source (despite what your channeller
friends claim) of reliable information in a phenomenon as little understood as
this. We should attempt to cull the common features of our experiences to
begin laying the foundations of a model for common referrence. 


Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: TARZAN
Subject: Re: My Own Experiences with OBEs
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:54:22 GMT

In article <1992Oct11.231354.1103769@zeus.calpoly.edu> artemps@zeus.calpoly.edu
(A Richard Temps) writes:
>To my knowledge, I've had only one out-of-body experience, and I was quite
>unconscious at the time.  I don't know why I was sliding all over the 
>ceiling, but there I was.  I have read many books and tried a lot of
>different exercises, but it's a really difficult thing to TRY to do.
>In any case, very soon I will be learning how to do auto-hypnosis.  My
>question is, has anybody the auto-hypnosis ability been able to willfully
>induce an OBE?  I would think that it would help things along quite a bit,
>in any case.  Any comments or answers would be appreciated.
>
>					Richard
>
>"A person without a by-line"
>
MY SUCCESSES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN GREATER WHEN I GET INTO THE HABIT OF MEDITATING
REGULARLY. CENTERING. FOCUSING. RELAXING. DON'T ANTICIPATE.  DON'T WAIT IN
EXPECTATION. JUST LET IT HAPPEN. IT WILL.

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: near death exp.
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 21:15:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.172214.28093@javelin.sim.es.com>, aharris@javelin.sim.es.com (Alan Harris) writes in part:
|> Time to get on my soap box and get preachy.
|> 
|> The reason people like my uncle don't share their experiences is because
|> of people who carelessly treat another's deeply meaningfull experience
|> as if it was nothing.  I am NOT saying that these experiences are not to
|> be questioned.  I am NOT saying that you can not offer other explainations
|> for sommeone's experience.  I am saying that if you disagree you can do it
|> kindly.  There is room for kindness and consideration of another's feelings
|> even in applying the scientific method.  when someone shares a meaningfull
|> experience and then is treated as if they are stupid, then they learn to just
|> shut-up and not tell anyone.  People don't cast pearls before swine because
|> the swine don't understand the worth and beauty of a pearl.  If you treat
|> others experience as worthless, then they will simply stop sharing them.
|> 
|> Off my box.

Up on box

1.  Why is it so important whether "people like your uncle" "share their
    experiences"?

2.  I do not accept that the one and only reason people don't "share"
    is because some "people" "carelessly treat another's deeply meaningful
    experience as if it were nothing".

3.  Just exactly how am I supposed to treat someone's "deeply meaninful
    experience" anyway?  It's not necessarily that meaningful to me.

Down from box

I don't like to see people be unkind and insensative any more than you 
do, but why do we need so many posts on this topic?

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body