From: narayana@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Kuram T Narayana)
Subject: Re: On Indian Civilization being the oldest..
Keywords: aryan, dravdian, caste system
Organization: Penn State Computer Science
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:03:59 GMT

In article <Bxtvtx.HMv@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
>
>     My comment is a short one. I've included the whole article
>     in order not to distort the context.
>
>
>In article <BxoDKM.Lpn@cs.psu.edu>, narayana@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Kuram T Narayana) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov13.203720.10653@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> akash@sol.berkeley.edu (Akash R. Deshpande) writes:
>> >Again, only using following as an occasion for discourse:
>> >
>> >>Vedanta you do not need if your purpose is material; life.
>> >

(stuff deleted ...kt)

>> of capitalism. If we compare why the invading aryans looked for
>                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> structure in thought, perhaps (in hind sight) they needed a 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> social structure.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(1)
>
>         Please see below.
>
>> >>                                                           But if
>> >>your objective is to liberate yourself from your bondage
>> >>and seek the Brahman, then that is a plausible way. It is precisely
>> >>that aspect that has kept the civilization looking upto the vedas,
>> >>in spite of consistent attempts to defile them.
>> >
>> >And it is precisely because our civilisation has kept going to the Veda
>> >and Vedanta only for liberation and moksha, that we have grown weaker.
>> >Here, in this world, while doing works, one has to attain such liberation
>> >as possible. Moksha and nirvana are but an escape from or postponement of a
>> >more complete realisation which is possible concretely only in the material.
>> 
>> The reason that we have four stations of life in society is to wnsure
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(2) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> that a completely satisfied material soul seeks liberation of the self
>> from matter. That is particular way. But there is nothing to prevent
>> a rigorous study of the brahman in the material life itself. In fact,
>> Ramanuja regards achieving discrimination as part and parcel of Moksha.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(3)^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>

Selvakumar says:

>     It appears that since you say 
>            [1] " the invading aryans were looking
>                 for structure in thought, perhaps they needed a social 
>                 structure"
>                   
>           [2] "the reason we have four stations of life in society.."
>           [3]  "Ramanuja regards discrimination as part and parcel
>                 of Moksha".
>    You are supporting the caste system. If you would clarify whether
>    the above statements of yours are an indirect admission that caste
>    system is or was necessary and a logical developement of 'aryans' ,
>    then I'll have something to say. I remember that you were also
>    telling us how Hitler sent people to Kashmir to 'breed' pure
>    aryan race. I'll post my view once i hear a response from you on this
>    topic.  
>
>> 


Well! I will answer this. It appears that you are not aware of the fundamemntal 
thought processes  in the Vedas. The four stations of life above refer to
Brahmacharya (life of a student), Gruhastha (life of a family person), 
Sanyaasa (the life of an ascetic). The first one is that of childhood. When
commenting to Akash Deshpande's question whether a complete and fully
satisfied life is necessary prior to  having the desire to know the
Brahman, I said that Karma (performance of duty) was considered considered an 
antecedent in a man's quest for the Brahman. This is what many commentators
say on Badarayana's first Brahma sutra 

   Athato Brahma jignaasa

   Atah = now and therefore 

   Brahma = Brahman

   Jignaasa = the desire to know


The key aspect in this aphorism is the word Athato. What is that "Now"?
When can an individual soul start seeking Brahman so that he can 
successfully find the release? 
In this context, I brought in and explained the social notion of the 
four stations of life and the structure of thoguht. This is not my making.
Any commnetary on Vedas gives the same. I also said that there is a contrary
view as given by Buddha that seeking Nirvana (or knowledge about the 
brahman) requires ascetism, and stated the known consequences for the
then society of Buddist Nirvana.

Discrimination and Nondiscrimination are metaphysical terms.
Discrimination says that the Self (Atma) is distinct from the body.
Nondiscrimination says that the Self (Atma) and the Universe (Brahman)
are one and the same.  In the process of knowing the Brahman one
detaches himself from this material body  to achieve discrimination
and then proceeds for nondiscrimination. Some people regard that  6that
the Union between the Self and the Brahman (or the final release) is
the moksha where as Ramanuja considers that discriomination discrimination is
an integral part of the search for the Brahman.

So Mr. Selvakumar, there is nothin about racial 
discrimination in the above comments of mine, or in any of the Vedas that I
know of.
....kt
>> If we only reagrd seeking Brahman is the only aspect of life, then 
>> we are essentially following Buddha in whose time many youthful
>> men and women took sanyansa, thereby  affecting the normal life.
>> That is perhaps one of the reasons for the fall of Buddhism (atleast
>> from what I have read).
>> ...kt
>> >
>> >>...kt
>> >
>> 
>
>      Regards
>      Selva Selvakumar
>