HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 09:31:34 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:

> In article <1992Jul16.141715.15844@ddsw1.mcs.com>, eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com 
> (Eshin-Fun) writes:
> > I believe that Ciaran understands this. But her point is that then if we ar
> > to capitilize Christian, why not Pagan?
> 
> Because there are those who self-identify as Christian, and not as a member o
> any of the sub-groups that are collectively Christianity.  Further, any two
> Christians can be said to be practising the same religion, but this is not tr
> of any two pagans.  The term Christian is more analogous to Wiccan or Santero
> rather than to Pagan.
> 
well then capitolizing Pagan and considering it a religion is valid.  by 
this criterion anyway.  there are people who identify as Pagan, but not 
with any of the subsets.  me, for instance.

                                    -ailsa

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 23 Jul 92 08:13:48 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <1992Jul21.162520.1@fnalo.fnal.gov>, holzman@fnalo.fnal.gov (Daniel
B. Holzman) writes:
>In article <krikket.4919@meltdown.chi.il.us>, krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us 
>(D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>> As for where the pendulum should be stopped, idealy it would be when the 
>> difference of the sexes would make as little difference as the difference of 
>> eye color.  (And please no smart-assed remarks along the lines of "So you 
>> mean when men carry 50% of fetuses in their woumbs  (sp?). )  
>
>Given that there is research going on to allow men to carry babies, this is >not all that far fetched.  I expect that you will see more and mroe men >wanting to bear young.

Agreed.  I know that I might want to go through labor one day.  I dunno.  But I do know of the research you are refering to, which is one reason I was hoping to avoid this issue...  But what the hell, let's go for it.  (People so far seem to have ignored my comments on the defence of Pornography, Having fun with Stereotypes (specifically those of Child Molestation and Beastiality) perhaps this will provide a reaction...

Let's take a given, namely let's assume that science CAN allow men to carry fetuses in thei woumbs, for an inexpensive fee.  (Yeah, right.)

Should men be required to carry 1/2 of the fetuses?

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 13:34:00 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:

> In article <Bs3xDI.M7t@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A.
> Davis-Howe) writes:
>
> >I will call your religion Pagan in writing, since that is what you call it.
> >To make it clear in speaking, I will call it Vaglanism, which is my cutsey
> >way of saying "Vaguely Pagan but with no particular allegiance to any one
> >pagan religion".
>
> So far the best idea on this issue was made a few posts back (as if that help
> anyone who is on another system) with different definitions for "Paganism"
> and "paganism"...
>
> This "Vaglanism" just sounds insulting though.  The version of Paganism I
> practice, while it doesn't fall directly into a neat sub-catagory, is more
> than just vague paganism.  (Note where I did and did not capitalize!)
>

i'll agree here, and i hope i got the attributions right, as i consider the
"vaglanism" comment to be rather nasty? assholish?   not very nice, definitely.
and i don't want to accuse bran of saying something assholish if he didn't.

that being said, if someone said that to me, i would be stringly desirous of
taking that sneer and stuffing it down that someone's throat, with definite
physical force.  who the hell are you to tell someone that calls themselves
Pagan by religious bent that they are "vaguely" pagan?  vague paganism my
ass...  insulting people in general conversation is not generally a good way to
keep the conversation  general.

                                              -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
"If it has tires or testicles,             Silence \      / Action
 you're going to have trouble                 =     \    /    =
 with it."                                  Death    \  /    Life
     -Ohio state Senator Linda Furney                 \/
From: "skyler bode" <skyler.bode@execnet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: eating humanely
Date: 28 Jul 92 00:28:49 EST
Reply-To: "skyler bode" <skyler.bode@execnet.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Executive Networks Information

Hi all...

With all the discussion going on about Environmental Damage of Factory
Food Production, I have begun a search.

First of all, I do not approach this lightly.  I am originally from
Iowa, where houseplants have been known to die from runoff herbicides in
the drinking water.  I've seen land rape in action.  That said...

How do I find out what food suppliers (if any mainstream ones, that is)
are using "humane" farming methods?  Where can I find information on
companies and the methods they use?  A post mentioned AndersonErickson,
but I no longer live in the Midwest.

I can't seem to find an alt.vegetarian or suchlike group to bug about
this, so I come to you folks.  I live in NYC (supposed location to find
ANYTHING) and am conscientious omnivore.

Any email about this will be greatly appreciated.  Where do I find food
with which I can lighten my footprint on my Mother's neck?

Blessings...
-Skyler

skyler.bode@execnet.com  "Feel free to disagree.  I do."
A Heathen of the Independent Citystate of New York
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:54:13 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

In article <2A6CA4AA.670@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>[Again, lots o' personal attacks and name-calling deleted...]

>Then why are you so afraid?  Why do you seem to spend so little time
>DOING something about what's wrong, or just listening to someone talk
>about the pain thy've suffered and so much time screaming about how
>*YOU* didn't do it, even before anyone accused you.  

Because, when I have tried to listen, tried to discuss the points, I
get drowned out by a cacophony of insults and slurs (cf. the above
posting and one from Ailsa).  Why should I listen or respond when the
decibel level pops my ear drums, even over a computer network?  You all
seem not to want to discuss, which implies both sides listening, but
rather to just tell what the problem is from your viewpoint, and what
your solution is, again from your viewpoint.  If anyone disagrees, or
comes up with a "yes, but..." they're immediately shouted down.

Nobody gets anywhere without dialog.

Regards,

Jeff H...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: More Crone Images (was re: stereotypes)
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:01:52 GMT

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
> who would make the kid into a decent human being if the mother
> won't give the child any limitations and frustrations?

)-:  The father, of course!  :-(

	"Just wait til your father gets home."

Doesn't that just stink!
Sigh.  What a society.  Sigh.

Sorry for the minor rant.  I'll get off the soapbox now.

Bear Blessings!  (Passing soapbox on to the next ranter.)

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	-- radzy			|  do as ye will.
					|
	Tim Omelan Radzykewycz     	|  "Just pray for a
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|  tough hide and a
					|  tender heart."
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |    -- Ruth Graham
					|
------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: Whats a male chauvinist pig?
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:05:00 +0000

wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes..

>mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:

>> : Pointless flotsam. Please take this kind of noise elsewhere.
>>
>> I laughed. Lighten up. |-)
<> --

>Really? You laughed? Maybe you can explain what was funny about it?

>Posted by itself, with no attempt made to use it as an intro to a
>conversation, or to make a point, it was simply gratuitous, bordering
>on harassment.

Interesting reaction there Bill. Tell you why I think I posted it.
Long time ago, in the late '60s the sort of conversations that are
occurring in this group were going down. You know Black Power,
Radical Feminism, Gay Lib - all that stuff. I got roasted by an
(American) lady for basically objecting to her sleeping with
whomsoever she chose whensoever she chose. I didn't mind: but not if
she wanted to sleep with me. Right or wrong that was my decision. I
got called a chauvinist pig for it - It was a fashionable phrase at
the time.

Some years later I mentioned this to my SO of the time, and she came
out with the phrase that I posted.


I just tossed that little grenade over the parapet to see what blew
up.

You did.

I don't know what you are rabbiting on about sex-pain and gender
pain. What my SO did for me that day was to tell me in a very neat
way that 'women can be just as selfish as men, and are not above
using means of oppression if they can find them'.


Which considering that I used to wallow around in as much guilt as
Radzy, was quite a turning point.

From 'I am always wrong, women are always right' kind of attitude,
I managed to balance it a bit.



Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rap@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Roger Powell)
Subject: Re: Music, The Visit, All soul's night 
Reply-To: rap@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Roger Powell)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 14:19:19 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.225110.6602@ac.dal.ca> jblain@ac.dal.ca writes:
> Does anyone know anything about a piece of music called (I think) "The Visit"
> by Lori McKinnot (sp??). I was sitting here, reading alt.pagan, with the
> radio on, and suddenly I was listening to this wonderful piece of music . . .!
> It is about All Soul's Night . . .
> 
> Help! Clarification! I want that music!
> -- 
> 
> 	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca

That's Loreena McKennitt; the album is _The Visit_, the song is 
"All Soul's Night".  Good stuff; McKennitt has a wonderful voice,
and comes up with some really imaginative instrumental accompaniment.
She also plays Celtic harp -- more so on her other albums than this one.
(And she's Canadian -- I have a soft spot for Canadian Pagans, for
some inexplicable reason.)

"All Soul's Night" is actually about a Japanese festival honoring the
dead, which involves sending little paper boats with candles down a river 
at night; the song is basically a meditation on the parallels between
that festival and our European pagan traditions of All Soul's Night.

Another of her albums, _Parallel Dreams_, has songs with such suggestive
titles as "Samhain Night", "Moon Cradle", "Huron Beltane Fire Dance",
and "Standing Stones".

You can get her albums through 
  Sylvia Woods Harp Center
  PO Box 816
  Montrose, CA 91021
  1-800-272-HARP (within the U.S.)

and probably other places, too; _The Visit_ is distributed by 
Warner Music of Canada.

BB,
--roger     rap@hq.ileaf.com

* Interleaf, Inc. has no official opinion of Loreena McKennitt's music.
From: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: MEN & WOMEN
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:32:38 GMT
Reply-To: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Organization: Computer Science Lab, SRI International
X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message are those of an
	      individual at SRI International, and do not necessarily
	      reflect those of the company.

Aren't we all supposed to celebrate each other's differences, and not
try to dismember each other because of them?

What's the difference between pride and prejudice?

When I was growing up, male pride was being amazed that I could open
peanut butter jars that my mom couldn't. She asked me because I was a
strong *man*! ;-)

Prejudice, however, would be to think that I was *better* than my mom
because of my jar-opening abilities. Utter foolishess!

I love my mom! And she loves me!

Why? Because of the wonderful differences between us. I thought that most
pagans would be in touch with the primitive, apparent truth that men and
women are complementary parts of a whole. The bitterness and divisiveness
comes when we layer crap on top of this, and the pride turns to prejudice.

It seems to me that the recent conversations mostly seem to miss this
point. My eternal gratitude goes to those who speak with compassionate
tongues during this debate.

I know that society gets out of whack, and that patriarchy and male
domination have caused great harm. I just want us to all think about
the fact that it will be the love and understanding that we grant each
other that will heal such past and present injustices.

May all the Gods of the universe grant us peace!

-Peter.
From: jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:24:20 GMT
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)

Tim, and everyone:

Knowing intellectually that I won't get burned as long as I keep walking, and
actually stepping into a pit of coals and walking for more than it takes to
step out of it are very different things.  Empowering myself to overcome my
fears would be a definite benefit of this.  Intellectually, of course, I
agree, seems obvious.  Am I gonna go home and do it Sunday at my Barbeque?

No way.

Cheers,

John
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:10:33 GMT

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: 
:> krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
:> : I third the motion... And think that there are enough wiccans present to j
:> : 
:> : (Hell, many people in the Chicagoland area that I know hwo are on the Net, 
:> 
:> Heh, Heh! Shows how it is easy to come to what is probably an incorrect
:> conclusion based on insufficient information.
:> 
:> I personally suspect that the "Starhawk Wiccan" type people are far and
:> few between here.
:> 
: well, i love starhawk.  i find her ideas interesting and very much enjoy 
: her work, and would love to meet and do a ritual with her sometime.  but 
: i wouldn't read or post to *.wicca.  why?  i'm not a wiccan.  i AM, 
: however, a pagan, so i will stick right here.

I also respect Starhawk, and here work. That was not what I was commenting
about. 

Bill
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Date: 23 Jul 92 08:37:26 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <2A6CA4AA.670@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
Maria Cortese) writes:

>>I beg to differ.  What if there was a white man's congressional caucus,
>>as there are for women and blacks?  What if there was a National
>>Association for the Advancement of White People?  What if there was a
>>Hetero Rights Organization?  All of these would be labeled harmful and
>>reactionary out-of-hand, regardless of what they actually did.

>Jesus Christ, buddy are you that clueless?  Any fucking caucus you go to
>is liable to be a white man's congressional caucus.  Do white people
>really NEED an association for their advancement?  Are you that
>incapable of distinguishing between the lynchers and the lynchees?  DO
>heteros NEED a special organization?  GAYS are the ones who take their
>lives in their hands by just stepping out their front doors, not you for
>being hetero. 

No, there is no need for a NAAWP (National Ass. for the Adv. of White People), but there is a need for watchdog groups to help the advancement of EVERYONE, without discrimination or quotas.  Maybe if people get this idea across, we can get rid of specific race/sex/etc. specific groups.

>And pray tell, where did you get this idea?  I guess every time someone
>yells about injustice basewd on physical discrimination, they're just
>trying to hog all the power from you.

>You're goddamned right I want power.  You're goddamned right I want to
>see black people get power.  You're goddamned right I want to see
>homosexual people get the power -- the power that has been denied to all
>of them for the last couple millenia.  You just don't want to surrender
>your power because deep inside you have an uncomfortable feeling that it
>was gotten unjustly.  Deep inside, you know that we HAVE suffered, no
>matter who the fuck is RESPONSIBLE, and you know that if you put up with
>as much as we have, you'd be pissed as all hell -- and you're afraid of
>that.

Diety.  Is this simply a fucking POWER-GAME???  Let's see who gets control over the masses!  "Let's party all night and party some-more!"  (Yeesh, another Jello Biafra quote.  Not as approperiate unless you know the song off the album "Frankenchrist")

>Then why are you so afraid?  Why do you seem to spend so little time
>DOING something about what's wrong, or just listening to someone talk
>about the pain thy've suffered and so much time screaming about how
>*YOU* didn't do it, even before anyone accused you.  
 
Ever consider what your motives might be Janis?  We shouldn't be reducing this to a power-game, but an equalization of rights.  There is a rather BIG difference once you stop to think about it...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:15:43 GMT
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN

Donal, the Sysop of The Brewer's Witch, in response to Tim Radzykewycz's post;

>" Tim, I am amazed that you could post something like this!? Have you no 
>sense of the profound effect that the walk had on the poster? Do you 
>realize that at that moment, Ciaran could have done ANYTHING??? I forget 
>who but someone once asked, "What would you do if you KNEW you could not 
>fail?" The scientific explanation does nothing to invalidate Ciaran's 
>experience. All the firewalk did was confirm the truth the walker already 
>knew, that we are limited by nothing but the limits we pla{_ce on 
>ourselves."

  Actually, it was Richard Darsie who wrote the original, and empowering, post.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Keywords: Viva la difference! Viva la raza!
Date: 29 Jul 92 18:15:31 GMT
	<12422@inews.intel.com> <1992Jul28.162734.3575@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> 
	<12540@inews.intel.com> <Bs5owr.4t3@news.cso.uiuc.edu>

>>Do you really think the oppressed want to
>>turn the tables? They see how the system makes all sick, oppressed and
>>oppressor alike, do you really think they want any of that?

In article <Bs5owr.4t3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> 
ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>Can you say Boudeccia(sp)?  I knew you could!  Of course, this was not some 
>oppressed woman--this was a strong woman, a Celtic warrior queen.  Still, she 
>was female and she led the revolt against the Roman legions.

Can you say Jean d'Arc? Yes, there are lots of similar examples, but you do
notice some differences, don't you?

>Please, Paul-- pretty please-- take women down off that pedestal you put them 
>on.  Women are not very different from men.

I do not rank sexes or cultures. There are differences and similarities, as for
me I say viva la difference! Y viva la raza!

>Most of the differences you believe in are only cultural.

Yes, I do believe in cultural differences. And I say this is good. Viva la raza!
Someone pointed out that statement as used by Latinos may be racist or 
anti-European. I would like to remind that person that Spanish is a European
language and most Latinos have European blood. La raza is in fact the human
race, of all shades of melanin, of all languages. Viva la raza!

>Let women be human, not something to be worshipped.

Let all human beings be human beings, something to be worshipped. Viva la raza!

>Also, take the other oppressed people off their pedestal.  Their are a hell of
>a lot of angry Black folk who would be very happy to turn the tables.  They
>don't see the oppressor as just another poor victim of the tragedy.  Some of 
>these folk want revenge!  (Please note, this is not a slam on Black people, in
>general or in specific.  This is simply pointing out that people who are 
>hurting are likely to be angry.)

Oh I don't know, we all see different pictures from different perspectives. I 
don't see the picture you paint as a general rule. And I'm a little confused
about how you are using the term "pedestal". Is this just a term for opinions
different from one's own? Aren't you putting Blacks on some form of pedestal
by saying that: "There are a hell of a lot of angry Black folk who would be
very happy to turn the tables"? I say to you that that type of verbal expression
is only symbolic, a way to push the boundaries if you will, a form of verbal
boasting, verbal one-upmanship. Not a threat intended to be carried out. You
do understand the difference don't you? If you say that is putting Blacks on
a pedestal, I ask you: "Who defined the pedestal?"

Newsgroups: alt.pagan