HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spf@hoqaa.att.com (Steven P Frysinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Effectiveness of armor (was Re: bullet & gasoline truck)
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:34:00 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

#From article <53100@mimsy.umd.edu>, by rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White):
# #rrw> In another scene, a fellow selling soft body armour, shoots
# #rrw> himself point-blank with a .44 mag - no problem and then shoots
# #
# #One more thing, how can a _soft_ body armour protect you from a .44 magnum?

In our training course we watched a video of our Lt. firing various rounds
into a Point Blank vest (such as we wear) on ballistic clay, then measuring
the dents (the dent "threshold" is apparently about 1.75" before serious
injury).  From 7 yards he fired:
		Long Guns
	12g shotgun - slug
	12g shotgun - 00 buckshot
	12g shotgun - #6 birdshot
	.22 LR
		Hand Guns
	.38 spl revolver
	.357 Mag revolver
	.41 mag revolver
	9mm pistol
	.40 pistol
	10mm pistol
	.45 pistol

NONE of these penetrated the vest, some didn't even make dents.  The
shotgun rounds made significant dents, up to 2".  This would cause serious
internal injury, and is one reason to wear a ballistic plate over your
heart (to discourage cardiac arrest).

Interestingly, the vest also stopped a slashing knife attack, but both
a stabbed stilleto and an ice pick penetrated (though not as far as they
would have without the vest).  A broadhead arrow also penetrated (as a
game warden I find that the most alarming!).

I don't believe he tried the .44 mag (none available), but I found the
balance of the test quite convincing.

Steve
From: bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:30:52 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <52863@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-13.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
#You could always hit the bear with a blast of 5% Capstun and see how well
#it can chase humans it can't see, or engulf it in flames with a shotgun
#shell of DRAGON'S BREATH(tm).
#

Well at least this proves that advertising is successful to a certain 
audience :-)

I would think that doing either of these things to a Polar bear would
get you top billing on the menu as the special du jour. Just my
opinion of course. Anyone ever heard of someone who did anything like
this to a bear and lived to tell? (It probably comes under the heading
of "teasing the bear" as far as the park service is concerned :-)
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's
From: uswnvg!rchrist@uunet.UU.NET (Ron Christian)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: <<< To Carry or not to Carry... >>>
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:06:16 GMT
Organization: US West NewVector, Bellevue, WA



All concealed carry gives you is a better chance.  A sniper can still
take you out, or someone more prepared than you can get you first, or a
sufficient number of assailants can take you down.  All a firearm and
appropriate training does is improve your chances.  The more effective
the firearm, and the better the training, the better chances you have.

Concealed carry is like wearing a seatbelt.  It doesn't help in some
cases, and it might even hinder in a very few, but on the average it
increases your chances of keeping yourself and your loved ones alive.
That, by itself, is justification enough for me.


			Ron
From: tarl@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: PEN GUN
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:42:27 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.


In article <53096@mimsy.umd.edu>, sybok@m11-113-5.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
# It looks like the only distinction between pen guns and handguns is on
# the federal level--Massachusetts makes no distinction.  Thus, I could get
# one if I paid the $200 transfer tax and applied for a BATF background check?

Be aware that the BATF approval hinges on local approval as well; my
understanding is that most police chiefs in MA don't give approvals for
Title II weapons (certainly it would boggle my mind if Cambridge would
do so).
-- 
         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
From: browne@apple.com (Sean Browne)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Knob Creek
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:20:41 GMT


High -I couldn't get your name from the post. I am going to be
in Kentucky with my wife 4/20 - 2/27 for the Rolex three day
event and would much rather be shooting a machine gun than watching
a Dressage competition. Could you give me more info on this? I'll
be at my folks in Covington (near Cincinatti) for the first part
of the week and would love to make this on the 24th. Any info you
could give would be greatly appreciated. Should I bring a weapon
to shoot? I have a 56S with a hellfire I've never had the pleasure
of trying. Thanks in advance -Sean.
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re:  Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:28:50 GMT
Organization: who knows

In article <52743@mimsy.umd.edu>, smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes...
#<52591@mimsy.umd.edu>, bae@auspex.com (Brian Ehrmantraut) writes...
###   (c) What calibers and gusn are recommended?
## 
##	I'd go for a good quality bolt action in .375 H&H Magnum, and I'd make 
##sure I knew how to use it efficiently under stress - short-stroking is a no-no,
##and bullet placement is still crucial.
# 
#If anyone is interested, a friend has a Sako (with rings) for sale, $700.
#The rifle is too light for him, 7.5 lbs.

I forgot to mention that the caliber is .375H&H.
From: bourman@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Bob Bourman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Clip prices?
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:04:12 GMT
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server


		

		MAGAZINE...MAGAZINE...MAGAZINE...MAGAZINE...

		I think I have it now........

		You're correct: Sorry !   =8*o
From: gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Enfield: Which One?
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:13:06 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University

In article <52614@mimsy.umd.edu> ole@brutus.delab.sintef.no (Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen) writes:
#The P14 is probably stronger, but it is not really an Enfield, but
#more of a Mauser type action.
#
#Btw., I am trying to unscrew the barrel from a P14 receiver, but it
#seems to be stuck. Does anyone know for sure which way the threads go
#on the P14? Any other tips?
#

I think your problem is not which way the threads go but rather how your
rifle was assembled. There was an article in the NRA Gunsmithing Guide, I
believe, that talked about the problem of removing the barrel from the
Enfields. The author told about having to put a 20' (twenty-foot) cheater
bar on the wrench and then having two men hang from the end to loosen the
barrels. When the barrels finally did break free they cracked the receivers.
The author of this particular article was a gunsmith and stated that the 
procedure they finally adopted was to set the barreled action up in a lathe
and use a parting tool to relieve the barrel just in front of the receiver.
With that done the barrel could be unscrewed by hand. Apparently the barrels
were really torqued down HARD when they were assembled. Be careful, a lot of
Enfield receivers were cracked until they discovered this method. Good luck.

geoff kotzar
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re:  Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:30:46 GMT
Organization: who knows

<52591@mimsy.umd.edu>, bae@auspex.com (Brian Ehrmantraut) writes...
##   (c) What calibers and gusn are recommended?
# 
#	I'd go for a good quality bolt action in .375 H&H Magnum, and I'd make 
#sure I knew how to use it efficiently under stress - short-stroking is a no-no,
#and bullet placement is still crucial.

If anyone is interested, a friend has a Sako (with rings) for sale, $700.
The rifle is too light for him, 7.5 lbs.
From: tcmaint@sail.labs.tek.com (-Broadband Network Maintenance)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:43:50 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.


Hand guns on polar bear?

Forget the hand guns. Use a large rifle. The 44 mag does not have the engry
or power of a 30-30. 

I remember reading a response to this question about brown bears, and the 
answer from a hunting guide was, "If you shoot a bear with a 44 save the 
last round for your self."

Large bears can be mean, so use a big rifle. The biggest you can use
effectively. 

Some rifles to think about are, .338 Win Mag, 8mm Rem Mag, 458 Win Mag., and
the 460 Weatherby Mag. On the other end you may want to look at the 45-70.
A modern rifle in 45-70 can handle pressures that will push out the 500 gr
round nose bullet close to e 2000 fps.

Bruce
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:30:26 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <53066@mimsy.umd.edu>, by me@asmodeus.u.washington.edu (My Account):
# In article <53046@mimsy.umd.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
# [part omitted for clarity]
# # running and showing that the motor does NOT die. They also shoot tires and
# # show that they do not "blow up". All in all a very good video.
# 
# Well, if you shoot the block with a .44 MAG then damn right it's gonna stop  
# functioning (I should know, I'm a mechanic)
# 
# Engines just don't like running with cracked blocks...
#

But would it stop dead?  I drove a Celica for at least 2 years
with a hairline crack in the head.  The day the crack got bigger,
I manage to drive it ~30 miles and it might have gone farther, it
didn't seize up.   
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas More)
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotguns vs Handguns (was: Gun Recommendations Sought)
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:17:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: mimsy.53233
Organization: gte

In article <52965@mimsy.umd.edu>, gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
# 
# In article <52833@mimsy.umd.edu> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
# #To which one would simply respond, ...
# 
# No you wouldn't, unless your own counsel later asked you "why?".
# Courts don't usually tolerate the defendant launching into a
# speech that is not in direct answer to the examiner's question.
# 
# This does point up the necessity of retaining a good attorney
# who SPECIALIZES in the specific kind of trial (e.g. he should
# know in advance what arguments the prosecution is likely to
# make and prepare appropriate counterstrategies).

The defendant has the right to speak on his own behalf.  (Unless they've
trashed that part of the Bill of Rights too.)This may not be during the 
line of questioning, but you will get your chance after.  AND, if you are 
asked "yes or no," you may respond "neither answer is the whole truth,"  
and he will then be obligated to allow you to answer or drop the line of 
questioning.

Continue with email if you wish to pursue ... we're off the subject here.


-- 
It's a wonderful feeling when you voted for the winner, but the time to vote for
the guy who "could win" is past: vote your conscience - Marrou/Lord in 92!
Andrew Ford INTERNET: gtephx!forda@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
            UUCP: !uunet!samsung!romed!asuvax!gtephx!forda
From: gt8303a@prism.gatech.edu (The Great and Mighty Confused)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Smoking those little orange disks
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:12:50 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


Having shot skeet for almost a year now, I can say that a 70% kill ratio is
not bad, but I can't say that it's 'normal.'  Of course, I have a problem with
the concept of 'normal.'  70% would be pretty good for me, but maybe not for
a better shooter.  In my skeet rounds (25 possible hits), I typically score
in the upper teens or the lower twenties (17-21 or so), which gives me a
68-84% hit ratio.  Skeet and trap are, however, different, so you may want to
wait until a trap shooter replies to yur article.  As for me, I prefer skeet
because the aspect of the target to the shooter is constantly changing, with
some of the targets coming right at you and some crossing at darn high speeds
directly in front of you (speeds enough to require a 6-foot lead at the
'fastest' station).

Andy Entrekin
gt8303a@hydra.gatech.edu
From: aeporro@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mini 14 info
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:28:25 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center

In article <52748@mimsy.umd.edu>, thi@mips2.ma30.bull.com (Saigon Smuggler) writes...
#
#  [text deleted]
# 
#The Mini-14 has a 1-in-10 twist.  Compare to the HBAR's 1-in-7 and AUG's 
#1-in-9 twists.  With the 1-in-9 twist, the AUG handles the SS-109 ammo 
#beautifully.  Since I have never used SS-109 in a Mini-14, I cannot comment
#on whether the 1-in-10 twist can handle the extra weight of the SS-109.
# 

The newer Mini-14's have the 1 in 7 twist rate barrel.  I read this in a 
Ruger catalog and confirmed this by calling the factory.  I reload .223 using 
the Sierra 63 gr SP slug and shoot it through a recent manufacture Mini-14 
with O.K. results -- it ain't no HBAR as far as accuracy is concerned.

******************************************************************************
| Bob Porro                    || (The opinions expressed here are not       |
| aeporro@venus.lerc.nasa.gov  ||  necessarily those of the management ?\*!) |
|                              ||                                            |
******************************************************************************
From: purtilo@cs.umd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: another warning about Brazilian ammo
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:50:43 GMT

This has come through here once before, but it can't happen too often...

Have care of using .30 military surplis ammo marked CBC 75 (cripes, I
think this is .308WIN, not '06, but like a dummy I didn't write down which
at the exec meeting last night.)  Some dealers in our organization got
express mail warning them to have customers look out for this.  Seems that
additional users of it have experienced `extreme bodily harm and/or property
damage' (i.e., sounds like someone is sporting a new bolt in their forehead).

Jim
From: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 145 gr. Sivertip
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:57:56 GMT


In article <52551@mimsy.umd.edu>, sybok@m4-035-4.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
# Hmm.  What would be the chances of you getting a small package if Joe Smith
# in the USA put 25 0.357 Magnum (Federal 125-gr JHP) cartridriges in
# it, surrounded by aluminum foil, and paid the overseas postage, saying the
# contents was "lead toy soldiers."  (The aluminum foil would foil an x-ray
# machine.) Needless to say, Joe wouldn't put a return address on the package,
# because it might be intercepted.  Does your government usually open your
# mail?

I don't know wether our govt. usually open our mail, but customs may be
curious about incoming boxes, just to be sure that all taxes are paid,
to fight against drug traffic and so on. Being unable to see the inside
of a package can make them very curious. In addition, it is strictly
illegal to import ammo this way. Please, do not do this. It can cause
me a *LOT* of problems and it can be very harmful to shooters here.


-- 
Emmanuel Baechler.
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne
MA-Ecublens
CH-1015 Lausanne	Switzerland
Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
e-mail: baechler@liasun6.epfl.ch
Standard Disclaimer

Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
From: bbx!bbx.basis.com!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 145 gr. Sivertip
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:04:26 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Albuquerque NM


In article <52616@mimsy.umd.edu> baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler) writes:
#I don't know wether our govt. usually open our mail, but customs may be
#curious about incoming boxes, just to be sure that all taxes are paid,
#to fight against drug traffic and so on. Being unable to see the inside
#of a package can make them very curious. In addition, it is strictly
#illegal to import ammo this way. Please, do not do this. It can cause
#me a *LOT* of problems and it can be very harmful to shooters here.

Any particular reason that you can't handload to the specs of the
Silvertip?  I know that you can't get the bullet, but it seems to me
that you could do as well by handload a generic 125 grain HP to the
same velocity (no offence to the Silvertip crowd out there).

-- 
Russ Kepler, Basis International Ltd. russ@bbx.basis.com  phone: 505-345-5232
From: JJD118@psuvm.psu.edu (John Donovan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun-Free School Zones and Gun Cases
Date: 17 Apr 92 12:44:37 GMT
Organization: Penn State University


I live within 1000 feet of a school, does this mean that I can't carry a gun
to my car or keep one in my house??

-john

[MODERATOR: That's how it reads in Maryland too.  Err.... let's
move this right away to offline or t.p.g., I sense some strong
feelings coming out (in me!) on this one, and this typically 
takes us away from r.g. charter....]
From: rtaraz@ascoli.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:44:04 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280

#>>>> On 10 Apr 92 23:21:05 GMT, rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White) said:


rrw> I have a video (the name of which escapes me at the moment) in
rrw> which they fire tracers into a gas tank about 1/3 full of gas.
rrw> You can seen the gas leaking out of the tank and you can see
rrw> vapors all around the tank - it never explodes.  More movie B.S.
rrw> I'm afraid.

   I personally don't believe that a gas tank explodes by shooting
bullets into it.  Gasoline does not explode unless its in vapor form
(that's why cars have carborators to spray the gasoline in to the
cylenders instead of pouring the gasoline!)

If you through an explosive into the gas thank, then it explodes!
Thats how the special effects are created in movies (the explosions
with a lot of fire and smoke.)  The explosion creates a lot of heat
and also spreads the gasoline everywhere and you get a big flame.
(I guess I should post this to alt.movies.special effets!)


rrw> In another scene, a fellow selling soft body armour, shoots
rrw> himself point-blank with a .44 mag - no problem and then shoots
rrw> another fellow point-blank with a rifle (I forget the caliber).
rrw> The shootee is standing on one foot at the time and the impact
rrw> doesn't even make him lose his balance.


Now, lets see here, how can somebody get hit with a bullet from a
rifle and not loose his balance?  I dont care how good the armour is,
you do loose your balance! (or maybe I am mistaking, I never stopped a
bullet with my body)  

One more thing, how can a _soft_ body armour protect you from a .44 magnum?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
rtaraz@wpi.wpi.edu
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Handgun grip and feel (was Re: Can a woman handle .357 or .45?)
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:46:16 GMT
Organization: Computing Center, North Carolina State University

In article <53065@mimsy.umd.edu> jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:
# ...  but I think the best bet for me would 
#be to learn to shoot with either hand.

  Absolutely yes, and even more so if you are considering defensive
use of a gun.  I'm sure I don't have to explain why.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "GLOCK" - A Book Review
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:20:20 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

In article <52909@mimsy.umd.edu> you write:
= 
=     According to Peter Kasler, amphib. spring cups are restricted sale
=     items by Glock, although not due to any legal restrictions.

Just as a matter of curiosity, aside from the obvious "because it's there"
reason, why would one want one?

And, PLEASE, don't let's start any religious wars.  I *agree* that
there's no reason why you shouldn't have one.  As I said, I'm just
curious what practical reason anyone would have for wanting one.


-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov
From: cvacura@uswat.uswest.com (Craig Vacura)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Win 94 Serial No.
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:17:35 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

Can anyone out there tell me when this Winchester M94 30/30, serial number

3438250

was made?  I think it was 1970 or 1971.  I've heard there are three era's 
for M94s.  Pre '64,'64 to '71, and '71 to current.  Is this right?

Anyway, this gun has been shot (post factory) 14 times and is in absolute 
perfect condition.  It looks newer than the guns selling on the shelf 
today.  I bought it from an older fella who had purchased it in '71 for 
deer hunting.  He sighted it in and never shot it or used it again.  I 
have the original box of ammo he purchased with the gun with the six 
remaining shells.  BTW, Federals sold for 3.99 a box in '71.  I also have 
the original plaid box the gun came in.

Is this gun worth anything in this ideal condition, or is it just a crappy 
gun in great condition?

Thanks for the help.

Craig
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Scoring Targets
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:06:02 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <52590@mimsy.umd.edu>, by jerry@gumby.Altos.COM (Jerry Gardner):
# 
# 
# Whenever I read a magazine review of a new gun, one of the things mentioned
# is target group size, usually for 3 or 5 shot groups.
# 
# How are these groups measured?  Let's say I've got a target with five holes
# in it.  How do I measure the group size?
#

Unless otherwise stated, I would assume they are measured from
center to center.  The group size would be the distance between
the two holes which are farthest apart.  If only one is off by
itself, you will probably see some reference to a flyer.

Just for curiousity, is there some reason why groups with larger
numbers of shots in them are usually bigger?  Is it just that the
shooter gets tired? 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas More)
From: gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:30:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University

In article <52715@mimsy.umd.edu> bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
#In article <52549@mimsy.umd.edu> rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
##
##   (c) What calibers and gusn are recommended?
##
#
#A possibility for a nice light bolt action is the Remington limited
#edition classic from a few years back in .350 Remington Magnum. My
#

much deleted

#
#Does all this sound paranoid enough for you :-) :-) :-)? Of course, 
#the best alternative is to avoid the bears and avoid shooting one if 
#at all possible. I hope this helps.
#
#Polar Bear joke from Farside I believe:
#
#A picture of two bears bent over an Igloo which has been broken open.
#One bear is commenting to the other that he "just loves that chewy center". 
#
#-- 
#==========================================================================
#              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's
#
#[MODERATOR:  In all this discussion about polar bear, we have 
#overlooked other basic safety practices, e.g., always go into
#the wild equipped with a colleague who runs slower than you do.]

That is why they make Raven .25's. Handy for shooting your buddy in the leg.

gmk