HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mdebuitlear@vms.eurokom.ie
Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Characterization of quack theories
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:13:52 GMT
Organization: EuroKom Conferencing Service

In article <1993Jan8.203434.26761@ncar.ucar.edu>, jsloan@ncar.ucar.edu (John Sloan) writes:
> From article <1993Jan8.105257.12195@vms.eurokom.ie>, by mdebuitlear@vms.eurokom.ie:
>> The fact is that millions of chinese people go into chinese clinics daily 
>> suffering from a wide range of illnesses.  They are treated by acupuncture 
>> and a few days later, they feel well again.
> 
> And, as in Western nations, if they had done nothing, they would also
> have felt better in a few days. For the vast majority of patients, in
> either culture, the physician can't really do anything for them. And for
> most of those patients, they would feel better in a few days no matter
> what they did.
> 
> This is a common theme among the couple of dozen of M.D.s I've known
> over the past ten years or so, and is also widely held to be part of
> the problem with containing medical costs. If folks would just stay
> home, drink plenty of liquids, get some bed rest, watch a video or two,
> and pet their cats, they would be just as well off than if they had
> gone to the clinic and got a prescription.
> 
> This is not a placebo effect, it's just nature taking its course.
> 

While I don't disagree with what you are saying, you are oversimplying somewhat.
I can think of any number of complaints that will not improve in the slightest 
by following your prescription (bed rest etc.) That is why I said a wide range 
of illnesses, you missed my point.

> --
> John Sloan              "Since I've given up hope,       +1 303 497 1243
> NCAR/SCD                   I feel much better."      Fax +1 303 497 1137
> Boulder CO 80307-3000 USA                           jsloan@ncar.ucar.edu
> Logical Disclaimer: belong(opinions,jsloan). belong(opinions,_):-!,fail.

Micheal De Buitlear.
MDEBUITLEAR@VMS.EUROKOM.IE
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Prescientific Traditions, again (was: Re: Herbs...)
From: RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg)
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:43:20 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Philosophy Dept., Wesleyan University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20In-Reply-To: turpin@cs.utexas.edu's message of 6 Jan 1993 11:02:22 -0600Lines: 28

In <1if3auINN4qg@im4u.cs.utexas.edu> turpin@cs.utexas.edu writes:

> I do not impugn the physicians and investigators
> of any prescientific tradition.  They undoubtedly did as well as
> they could given their time and place.  Unfortunately, the same
> cannot be said for modern proponents of their now obsolete
> theories.  At certain times and places, giving credence to the
> four humour theory of medicine, or evil spirits infesting the
> body, or qi, etc., made a lot of sense.  But not now. 

OK, Russell, I'll bite this time (thought I may regret this).

Could you please define what distinguishes prescientific traditions from
scientific traditions, preferably without using the term 'science' redundantly?

The reason I ask is because I am not nearly so sure as you are that there is a
*sharp* dividing line between science & "pre-science" or between science &
non-science.  Here is my underlying agenda:  I *think* I'd want to argue that
where, exactly, one chooses to draw those lines is ultimately political,
because there is a continuum between one & the other, not a sharp break.  This
is *NOT* (no flames, please) to say that there is no difference between science
& non-science, any more than (e.g.) to say there is no difference between poor
and wealthy.  It is just to say that where one draws a line dividing one from
the other is constantly contested, and ultimately political.

------------------------
Ruth Ginzberg <rginzberg@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Philosophy Department;Wesleyan University;USA
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: SURGDM@mizzou1.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: drinking urine
Organization: University of Missouri
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 12:11:48 CST

In article <43044@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>
wsun@jeeves.ucsd.edu (Fiberman) writes:
 
>A friend
>suggested that I drink a cup of my own urine every morning, the
>idea that most of the nutrients not absorbed by my intestine is
>in the urine.
 
Nutrients that are not absorbed by your intestines *stay* in your
intestines, so the only way to get them would be to eat your...
nevermind (it's almost lunch time). Urine contains electrolytes,
metabolic by-products, and water. If there is much else (like glucose,
red or white blood cells, etc) there is possibly something wrong.
 
Diane
From: lauren@cv.vortex.com (Lauren Weinstein)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: red count drop after bypass surgery
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:59:01 GMT
Organization: Vortex Technology, Topanga, CA, U.S.A.

Greetings.  While I of course realize that this forum would be
inappropriate for exact diagnosis, I'm trying to track down some
leads for a friend of mine with a potentially serious problem
that is currently something of a mystery to his doctors.

He's in his early to mid 60's, in "generally" good health and not
overweight.  He recently underwent bypass surgery when substantial
blockage was discovered, but as I understand it there was no
systemic disease found.  Surgery was successful and without
significant problems.

Sometime after the surgery, his red blood count began to fall.
Tests for cancer, leukemia, etc. proved negative.  After a 
transfusion, his count of course came up some, but has not
started upward since then.  The surgery was last October, by the way.

So far, his doctors seem to be at a loss as to what might have
triggered this reaction.  Do the symptoms above ring any bells
that might suggest avenues of investigation?

Please respond to me directly by e-mail, since I definitely am
not a regular reader of this newsgroup.  Thanks very much.

--Lauren--
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: rogers@ial3.jsc.nasa.gov (andy rogers)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: ? New drug/substance for HIGH CHOLESTEROL ?
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:52:19 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Engineering
X-Xxdate: Mon, 11 Jan 93 17:44:51 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d13

My brother-in-law recently read of a newly tested substance applied to high
cholesterol. It was actually applied to individuals with a genetic defect
allowing their total cholesterol count to be on the order of 1000. The
application lowered their cholesterol to below 200, nominally.

The substance works by inhibiting the process which converts fats to
cholesterol, thus the only cholesterol in these people was that directly
ingested as cholesterol.

Unfortunately he couldn't remember the name of the substance. He recalled it
as being the by-product of some fungal activity.

Is anyone here familiar with this?
If so, what process produces it, what is it called, how is it administered, is
it anywhere near market, etc. etc. etc.

thanks
andy
----
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Family Practice
From: RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg)
Date: 10 Jan 93 10:11:33 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Philosophy Dept., Wesleyan University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20Lines: 33

The local Sunday paper (Hartford Courant) had a big feature article today,
"More Doctors Turning Toward Family Medicine" in which they interviewed
residents in a local family practice program, local docs who've been in family
practice for over 50 years, & profs of family medicine from the local
med schools.  Some of the quotes from these folks struck me as addressing
exactly the kinds of concerns that many connoisseurs of alt.practitioners
express (especially re. metaphysical reductionism):

EXAMPLES:
"In family practice you deal with the mind, the body and the family.  A
specialty didn't appeal to me"  -Dr. Carol-Anne Voisine, resident

"Specialists are needed for only ... the most complex cases; the [rest] need to
be cared for by a doctor who views patients' health in connection with their
emotions, lifestyle, family dynamics and society."  - Dr. Robert K. Shapter,
family practitioner & director of the Middlesex family program.

"He said you don't treat the disease the patient has.  You treat the patient
who has the disease. That was in 1937 -- a long, long time ago.  But I always
remembered that."  - Dr. Benjamin Shenker (79), speaking of a New York Medical
College instructor who greatly influenced his own career in medicine.


This got me to wondering if maybe *some* of the current dissatisfaction with
"allopathic medicine" might actually be dissatisfaction with a scarcity of
primary care physicians trained in (& committed to) family practice.  One thing
about many of the alt.practitioners is that primary care practitioners are
nearly *always* in what allopathic medicine would characterize as "family
practice."  Just a thought...

------------------------
Ruth Ginzberg <rginzberg@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Philosophy Department;Wesleyan University;USA
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Huntingtons Korea/Chorea - any information?
Date: 9 Jan 93 11:40:38 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <1993Jan7.201008.13911@bnr.uk>, kmcgee@bnr.ca (Kenneth McGee) writes:
> Has anyone got any information or be able to give me referneces (books,
> organizations etc) on the disease HUNTINGTONS KOREA/CHOREA?
> 
> It attacks the whole nervous system, and has symptoms similar to Parkinsons.
> 
> Any information will be very much appreciated.
> 
> Kenny.

It's inherited, it's dominant, and it's fatal.

> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Kenneth McGee (7E65)			home:(0628) 30581		   |
> | Bell Northern Research		work:(0628) 794531                 |
> | Norreys Drive, Maidenhead		                                   |
> | Berkshire, England.			                                   |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Religiosity Gene?
Date: 9 Jan 93 11:47:57 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <1993Jan09.023239.169260@zeus.calpoly.edu>, dfield@zeus.calpoly.edu (InfoSpunj (Dan Field)) writes:
> I seem to recall some talk about the human tendency to be religious
> being a genetic trait.
> 

This was proposed, somewhat jokingly, in Talk.origins.  

> Does anyone know about any studies that attempted to investigate this
> claim?  Do you have any info at all?  Any replies will be appreciated. 
> 

As far as I know, no studies have been done.  

> -- 
> 
>                                 -Daniel R. Field
>                                  dfield@nike.calpoly.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: scb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Sam Blackman)
Subject: Re: Digoxin
Reply-To: scb1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:06:18 GMT

In article <2385@hsdndev.UUCP> rind@enterprise.bih.harvard.edu (David Rind) writes:

> scb1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>>My pharmacology professor said that
>>digitalis (along with the inhaled anesthetics) is the most dangerous drug
>>that we would ever work with.  Perhaps he was overstating things, but the
>>emphasis is well worth it.
>
>Not if it causes you to think that lots of other drugs are less dangerous.
>Digoxin is a widely prescribed medication with a long track record.
>While it certainly can cause toxicity, so can many other medications.
>Adriamycin and amphotericin B come to mind as drugs that would seem
>quite a bit more dangerous than digoxin.  There are many others.

>David Rind
>rind@binoc.bih.harvard.edu

When I said dangerous, I didn't mean to refer to just toxicity alone.  Dig
toxicity is not uncommon, owing in part to things like poor compliance,
drug-drug interactions, etc.  Amphotericin B and Adriamycin are quite toxic
substances, however both are given IV in a controlled hospital setting,  
hopefully by people who know what they are doing and who pay strict attention
to things like patient's renal status, CBCs, etc.  And yes, while the same
considerations need to be taken with digitalis, you are also giving a
pill with very specific dosing requirements to a patient who you cannot
supervise at all times.

-- Sam


-- 
Samuel C. Blackman        ! InterNet : scb1@midway.uchicago.edu
University of Chicago     ! Disclaimer : Who cares what I say, I'm a student!
Lost on the south side    ! Quote : Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!
Chicago, IL  60637        ! Phone : 312/752-1082 (h)   312/702-6582 (w)
From: mccurdy@bestsd.sdsu.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: X-rays as Lung Cancer detector?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 04:24:56 GMT
Organization: San Diego State Univ.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bestsd.sdsu.edu



	I have a new physician and just underwent a physical. Since I 
hadn't been examined in about 20 years ( I am 40) I asked about a chest 
x-ray. The doctor told me that they didn't use chest x-rays as a diagnostic 
tool on apparently healthy people because x-rays havn't proven effective in 
improving cancer survival rates. She felt that the extra radiation from the 
x-ray was more of a risk than the possibility of an apparently healthy me 
having cancer and not getting an x-ray to find it. She also mentioned that 
a tumor would have to be fairly well established to show up on the x-ray - 
the implication being that they will wait until other symptoms of lung 
cancer manifest themselves before taking x-rays.

	Is this the "company line" for the medical establishment and is it 
generally the optimal way to go? Are there scans or tests other than x-rays 
that would indicate smaller or microscopic tumors in the lungs? I quit 
smoking 8 years ago but prior to that smoked 1 1/2 packs per day. I don't 
have any indication that there is anything wrong with me ...

Thanks ...

Mike Mccurdy
mccurdy@bestsd.sdsu.edu
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Migraine Medication
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:27:08 GMT
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <1icipcINN6q1@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> pburch@bcm.tmc.edu writes:
>
>In article <17943@pitt.UUCP>, geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
>
>> In my experience, propranolol is more effective than verapamil, although
>> more people have side effects.
>
>How do these compare to taking Midren as a prophylactic against migraines?
>Side effects, cost?
>

Midrin is used mainly as an abortive, not a prophylactic.  You wouldn't
take Midrin on a daily basis, neither would you take propranolol only
when you felt a migraine coming on.  So you are comparing apples and
oranges.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lynn Gazis-Sax <lgsax@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: sci.med
Date: 07 Jan 93 20:11 PST
Subject: Re: Peter Breggin, _Toxic Psychiatr
Nf-ID: #R:C0C46t.Hq4@unx.sas.com:1265808767:cdp:1467700008:000:428
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!lgsax    Jan  7 20:11:00 1993


Rosenhan, the author of the article about the psychiatric
pseudo-patients, was a professor in the Psychology Department
at Stanford at the time I was there (1978-82).  I took an
Abnormal Psychology course from him (which, as I recall,
did treat schizophrenia as an illness - there was some
discussion of the problems in ensuring accurate diagnosis,
but not a debate over whether it was a disease to begin
with).

Lynn Gazis-Sax
From: rwood@lance.carleton.ca (Richard Wood)
Subject: Feldenkrais therapy
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:52:05 GMT

  Yet another question for this question-filled newsgroup ...

  I am interested in knowing more about 'Feldenkrais' therapy. I
checked my home medical dictionary, but it wasn't listed.  Is
anyone familiar with it (apparently it involves joints and movement) ?
Are there any books or articles on the subject?  Does it work ?
Is it worth investigating, or is it just touchy-feely mumbo-jumbo.

  Have I even spelled it right... perhaps it's 'Phyldeighnkzryst'....

--
Richard Wood  :  rwood@ccs.carleton.ca 
       Computing and Communications Services
               Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada K1S 5B6



Newsgroups: sci.med
From: bdowning@Control.COM (Bill Downing)
Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.med.occupational
Subject: Carpal Tunnel: Therapy or Surgery?
Keywords: CTS, RSI, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:29:57 GMT
Followup-To: sci.med
Distribution: sci
Organization: Control Technology Corp., Hopkinton MA


I have been diagnosed with CTS as of a year ago. Up until now, I've
managed to hold it at a mild level with postural adjustments,
exercises, frequent rest breaks, wrist splints, compresses, etc. It
isn't getting any better, but it isn't getting any worse (yet!). My
question is, since it seems to be chronic (albeit mild), have the
postural and other therapeutic adjustments reached the point of
diminishing returns? Is surgery the only answer for chronic,
non-improving CTS? And what kind of track record does surgical
intervention have vis-a-vis the cure or mitigation of CTS symptoms?

I'll post a summary of replies for those who are interested.



-- 
Bill Downing, President		Email: bdowning@schunix.uucp
DOWNING ASSOCIATES, INC.	       bdowning@control.com
8 Doyle Lane
Hopkinton, MA 01748		Voice: 508-435-4567
From: pburch@roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu (Paula Burch)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Migraine Medication
Date: 12 Jan 93 23:17:25 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu
Originator: pburch@roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu


In article <18021@pitt.UUCP>, geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
> In article <1icipcINN6q1@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> pburch@bcm.tmc.edu writes:
> >
> >In article <17943@pitt.UUCP>, geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
> >
> >> In my experience, propranolol is more effective than verapamil, although
> >> more people have side effects.
> >
> >How do these compare to taking Midren as a prophylactic against migraines?
> >Side effects, cost?
> 
> Midrin is used mainly as an abortive, not a prophylactic.  You wouldn't
> take Midrin on a daily basis, neither would you take propranolol only
> when you felt a migraine coming on.  So you are comparing apples and
> oranges.

That's a *very* interesting answer to me, as my neurologist put me
on daily Midren (two capsules/day, but I'm finding that one is enough)
to prevent migraines.

This could be due to the fact that I'm nursing a baby. The pediatrician
agrees that my taking Midren is fine for the baby. I have no idea whether 
other prophylactics are safe. I guess it's time for a follow-up visit.

Thanks for the additional perspective.

Paula Burch
pburch@bcm.tmc.edu
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:17:13 GMT
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <32827@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM> wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson) writes:
>I heard on "All Things Considered" that a recent study found (by
>a urine analysis, How they do that I don't know) that dieters
>underestimate the calories they consume--an overestimate the
>amount of exercise.
>
>So it looks like Gordon is right. Food in, energy stored in fat
>or burned. The problem isn't physics. It's psychological.
> 

These were diet-resistent obese people, not all dieters.  Most dieters
are not diet-resistent and do not underestimate their intake
that much, although there is a tendancy to do this in all people.
The article was interesting in that every single one of the diet
resistent dieters (about 25% of the dieters in the study) had
this problem.  We're talking about hundreds or a thousand calories
per day underestimate.  

I'm not sure I'd conclude that it is just psychological, although
it may be.  The authors of the study did not do so.  In fact,
they and the editorial author were very careful to state that
this does not mean any deception or gluttony on the part of those
who are diet-resistant.  

Of course, this discovery doesn't solve the problem.  We can't
put everyone in the hospital and regulate their intake as a solution
to diet resistence.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: Non-physician bashing
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:13:45 GMT

In article <17958@pitt.UUCP> geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
>In article <esther.725149226@sarge> esther@verdix.com (Esther Lumsdon) writes:


>>This is not really surprising.  One can go through an undergraduate
>>degree and medical school, and residency, and still lack the skills
>>for critical thought.  


>While I'm categorizing, here's another set:

>There is the quack MD who is a renegade.  He lacks critical thinking
>facilities or has a big enough ego to think that whatever therapy
>he comes up with must be super.

>There is the quack MD who is an out and out charlatan.  He knows that
>his therapy is worthless, but it is very lucrative.  These can be
>spotted by the magnitude of their fees and their demand (often) for
>cash in advance.

>There is the quack MD who is insane.  There are more of these than
>you want to know about.

And there is the real thinker, who will also be called quacks by the
substantial majority who cannot think.  When it comes to those who are
in the bureaucracy, the majority becomes not merely substantial, but great.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: esrmm@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Denis Anthony)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: drinking urine
Date: 9 Jan 1993 18:16:46 -0000
Organization: Warwick University, Great Britain
NNTP-Posting-Host: clover.csv.warwick.ac.uk

In article <43044@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> wsun@jeeves.ucsd.edu (Fiberman) writes:
>I am a skinny guy trying to gain some weight.  A friend suggested
>that I drink a cup of my own urine every morning, the idea that most
>of the nutrients not absorbed by my intestine is in the urine.

Semen is higher in protein
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Breastfeeding
From: RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg)
Date: 11 Jan 93 22:02:32 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Philosophy Dept., Wesleyan University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20In-Reply-To: sck@epg.harris.com's message of Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:02:44 GMTLines: 24

In <1993Jan11.210244.28115@mlb.semi.harris.com> sck@epg.harris.com writes:

> 
> Does anyone know of sources of breast milk if the mother cannot breastfeed?
> 
> I'm 4 months pregnant with my 3rd child and won't be able to breastfeed
> her because I had bilateral total mastectomy for breast cancer 7 years
> ago.  I appreciate the many benefits of breastfeeding; I nursed my other
> other two for a year each 12 and 15 years ago.

Contact your local La Leche League.  Many nursing women donate breast milk to
hospitals (for premies), or to babies who are adopted or whose mothers cannot
nurse them for other reasons.  Many nursing mothers get a great deal of
satisfaction out of being able to share their milk with a baby who otherwise
wouldn't have access to breast milk.  I know of at least one situation in which 
8 different nursing mothers delivered frozen breastmilk every day to a woman
who was unable to nurse her newly adopted infant.  The baby had failed to
thrive on various formulae, but did really well on human milk.

-rg

------------------------
Ruth Ginzberg <rginzberg@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Philosophy Department;Wesleyan University;USA
Newsgroups: sci.med