From: arron@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Reconciling OT with NT
Date: 22 Dec 92 13:35:52 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

>>They brought sin into the world, they caused the problem, God just tried
>>to keep the evil in check. 
> 
> This, of course, is totally bogus, unless you wish to assert that your
> God is a wimp.
> 
> Because if your God isn't a wimp, then your God *defines* cause and effect.
> Sin being brought into the world was an effect of the actions of Adam and
> Eve, an effect which your God could just as easily have removed.  That this
> particular effect was associated with that particular cause was YOUR GOD'S
> OWN DOING.  Your God didn't *have* to set things up that way, but your God 
> *chose* to do so.
> 
> In fact, it's *God's* fault that there was a means towards that end to begin
> with.  Your God *could* have arranged for the apple to simply not have ever
> been there, right?  Your God *could* have refrained from telling them not to
> eat it to begin with, right?  Your God *could* have arranged things such that
> the only consequences of eating the apple were that Adam and Eve gained a
> little knowledge.  But no.  Your God *had* to attach a moral consequence to
> the act of eating an apple.  What a silly and stupid thing to do.

Hey ... God walked on this earth too, it was his garden and his tree. If he
didn't want Adam & Eve to have it why shouldn't he. He was very fair about the
rules, who only laid down one, but Adam & Eve still couldn't hack it and
stuffed the whole scene up.

And God could have stopped sin entering the world, but he let Adam & Eve choose
for themselves, and they chose to let sin roll on in !!!!

If this is a great reason for you not to become a Christian, then I can only
say, that these and many other questions can easily be cleared up by the Holy
Spirit should you want to find out (see quote at bottom of this text). I CAN
NOT convince you as it is only your own experience that can (see futher down in
this text). If you don't want to learn, then you will NEVER receive the answers
God has for you, and that's a HUGE PITY !!!!

> Well, gee.  If Adam and Eve were afraid of God, they must have had a reason,
> right?  If the didn't know that they had done any wrong, then that must mean
> that they were afraid of God for some other reason, right?  Well, I must say,
> given the Bible's documentation of the nature of your God, I would say that
> they had good reason to fear your God, whether or not they had done anything
> wrong.

They did know they had done something wrong all right, God had already given
them clear instructions. They would have been wondering what the consequences
of their direct disobedience would have been. I think it's a pretty natural
thing for that to cause fear.

> Well, instead of wasting his time by asking an apparently nonexistent entity
> for forgiveness, he'll probably try to improve.  Works for me. 

Doesn't work for me, a lot of people out there aren't trying to improve, just
trying to find something better, by whatever means they personally see fit.

>>I'm afraid that unless you look and see with your own eyes, there will never be
>>any proof good enough for you (short the second coming, which I really hope for
>>your sake isn't soon)

> Substantial physical evidence in a well-established peer-reviewed
> scientific journal would be good enough for me...

I would expect that anyone who did/will do such a thing will be considered by
many to be a QUACK !!! But God is greater than scientific explanation and as I
said ... look for yourself !!!

>>Now here's where I need a little faith. Yes God can speak to you clearly and 
>>in a way you can understand (eg. voice/angels/miracles/revelation/miraculous
>>appearance). I will pray that God does do that. If God doesn't 'show up' I have
>>my own understanding as to why not. This is what explains it to me, this is not
>>and argument to convince you, so if you think it's Christian clap-trap ...
>>tough !!!! If God proved to you, without reasonable doubt that he is real, and
>>exactly ther character of God in the bible you would HAVE to accept him, 
> 
> No he wouldn't.  People ignore things that are proven to them beyond a
> reasonable doubt all the time.  For instance, many ignore the fact that
> the Shroud of Turin has been dated to the 12th century (if I recall
> correctly.  Somewhere around there, anyway).

As I said, if you disagree, tough ... I do believe this !!! Your point is also
a DEAD ONE as it is only someone elses research that has proved that stuff, but
I have not proved it for myself. If God appeared to me in some physical form it
would have been my own experience, and it is very hard (true ... not totally
impossible) to ignore THAT !!!
 
> Just think:  Squeek, the Great Mouse God, wants *you* to have faith in
> him.  Now, he won't reveal himself to you unless you have faith that he
> exists, and if you *don't* have faith then....well, let's just say that
> you'll be only so much cheese to him.

Not Squeek, the great mouse god, but ... Awesome and Gracious God, who cares
about us so much ,that he is prepared to give us our own choice, and loves you
soooo much that all his angles will dance in heaven when YOU stop fighting, and
give in to him.

> If your God wants me to be able to look face-to-face with him, I'll be able
> to do it.  Unless, of course, your God is too much of a wimp to make that
> possible...

Yup, you're right. In a later following to this thread I explained how MANY
times God did come in a perceivable form to face men, however, as the Universe
is incomprehensibly large, so is the God of Heaven and Earth, and even those
times you only saw the form God knew we could cope with !!!

> Yeah, right.  Your God can deal with whomever/whatever it wants.  Unless,
> of course, you insist that your God is too much of a wimp to do this.

MY God is righteous, has no sin in Him. He WILL NOT be a party to sin.

> FOR YOU, perhaps.  Now, just why do you think that what works for you is
> guaranteed to work for everyone?

Because Christ SAID !!!! But I can NOT make you agree, only your own seeking,
and the revelation from the Holy Spirit of God will change your mind !!! But
the Holy Spirit is prepared to give you the understanding as soon as you are
prepared to look for His way !!!

Seek and it will be given unto YOU !!!!

Have a great Christmas as we remember the birth of Jesus Christ, he came, he
died, and rose again !!!! For YOUR sins !!!
 
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from:arron@waikato.ac.nz			Arron Scott
						University of Waikato
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan