HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rmg3@grebyn.com (Robert Grumbine)
Subject: Re: Computers not a substitute for books
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:23:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.031551.5479@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>Amy Charles writes:
>
>I've been having a running argument with the Project Gutenberg folks
>(bit.gutenberg, I think) about this.  Aside from problems with aesthetics and
>transferability, digital text makes the most egalitarian of media the most
>classbound.
>
>Mike Godwin writes:
>
>Doesn't this argument assume that the means of reading digital text will
>be prohibitively expensive to poorer classes? Will this always be the 
>case?
>
>	Amy does have a point that this "egalitarian media" would now
>have a middleman. I can give you a book and you can read it. I can
>give you a digital text and you will need *something* to read it with.
>Unless technology expands its largesse and efficiency enough to
>virtually give digital text readers away with the text, then there

  I'm reminded here about a product introduction from about 100 years
ago.  The safety razor by Gillette.  To enter the market, he
gave away the blade holders.  The blades, he charged for.  Something
analogous might be possible here as well.  I don't know about likely.
We'll find out.

Bob Grumbine
rmg3@grebyn.com 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,misc.kids
From: jahb@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JENNIFER A. HEISE)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:55:28 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1i87uaINN6gv@agate.berkeley.edu>, curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yar
vin) writes:
>Well, not in our society, unfortunately.  Today's liberal arts degree
>serves one useful purpose: it certifies that the holder does indeed
>know what he should have learned in high school, namely, how to read
>and write.
>
On the other hand, today's science degree serves one useful purpose for the
rest of us: it certifies that the holder thereof cannot read, write or reason,
and should therefore be provided with secretaries, lab managers, and graduate
assistants to do these things for said holder.
-- 
Jennifer Heise                           Net: jahb@lehigh.edu
Reference Dept.,                         Phone: (215) 758-3072
Fairchild-Martindale Libraries #8A,  Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA 18015
My opinions are my own. No one else would HAVE them anyway.

"The toad beneath the harrow knows Exactly where each tooth-point goes;
The butterfly upon the road Preaches contentment to that toad."  Kipling
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:47:49 GMT

Milton's the prince of poets, so we say,
 A little heavy, but no less divine,
An independent being in his day,
 Learned, pious, temperate in love and wine;
But his life falling into Johnson's [Hm...] way,
 We're told this great high priest of all the Nine
Was whipt at college - a harsh sire, odd spouse,
For the first Mrs Milton left his house.

All these are certes entertaining facts,
 Like Shakespeare's stealing deer, Lord Bacon's bribes,
Like Titus' youth and Caesar's earliest acts,
 Like Burns (whom Doctor Currie well describes),
Like Cromwell's pranks; but although truth exacts
 These amiable descriptions from the scribes
As most essential to their hero's story,
They do not much contribute to his glory.

All are not moralists, like Southey, when
 He prated to the world of Pantisocracy;
Or Wordsworth unexcised, unhired, who then
 Seasoned his pedlar poems with democracy;
Or Coleridge, long before his flighty pen
 Let to the _Morning Post_ its aristocracy,
When he and Southey, following the same path,
Espoused two partners (milliners of Bath).

Such names at present cut a convict figure,
 The very Botany Bay in moral geography.
Their loyal treason, renegade rigour
 Are good manure for their more bare biography.

	(Byron, DON JUAN, Canto III, 91-4)


Video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor,

-- 
Marko Amnell
amnell@klaava.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Paglia:  clarification needed
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:35:17 GMT

In article <C0HLr8.L2I@news.iastate.edu> s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>>
>>For a discussion of "difference feminism," see Katha Pollitt's excellent
>>article in THE NATION ("Are Women Morally Superior To Men?" Dec. 28,
>>1992).
>
>Sorry, I read the same article (which, like everything I've read by Pollitt,
>is truly excellent), and I think it's a bit simplistic to say that her thesis
>about difference feminist depends entirely on the notion that difference
>feminists necessarily share the idea that women are superior to men, though
>I'll admit that she suggests that most diff. fems *do* share such assumptions.

Paglia may share some assumptions of difference feminists, but she does
not reach their conclusions. Not by a long shot. Ergo, she's not a
difference feminist.

>Paglia may not believe that women are superior to men, but her feminism adheres
>to diff. fem. in most other respects, fur as I can see.

What text supports this? The text quoted by me and requoted by Heather (where
Paglia says equality is the goal) is pure "equality feminism."

>>>Sorry, but I don't see Paglia has some great advocate for 
>>>women.
>>
>>Who said she was?
>
>Listen, man, I respond to the implications of what people say, so get off this
>business of "provide a quote or stand refuted.

Listen, man, in order to distinguish fact from imaginings or fantasies, we
need to know whether you are relying on anything anyone actually said when
you make your arguments. Criticizing claims that Paglia is "some great
advocate for women" when no one made such a claim is a tactic
called a Straw Man Argument. If you're interested in arguing this way,
perhaps you should do so in groups more amenable to such tactics.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: afcondon@maths.tcd.ie (Andrew Condon)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:57:22 GMT

mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
[of Paul Johnson's _Intellectuals_]
>Johnson makes clear that he hopes to diminish the influence of his
>subjects by exposing their personal lives. It is an unprincipled tactic.

I disliked the book but, in so far as the subjects were prescribing modes of
living for others personal lives, the tactic seems appropriate. Of course, not
all of those thinkers did so.
--
Andrew
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: academic settings
Date: 10 Jan 93 01:40:24 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1993Jan9.1479.24625@channel1> "john lovett" <john.lovett@channel1.com> writes:
>I just finished David Lodge's hilarious book 'Small World', based on a
>recommendation in a recent post, and have started 'Changing Places',
>also by Lodge.
>
>Can anyone recommend other books set in academia? Any genre will do.
>I'll post the list.
>

"Lucky Jim" by Kingsley Amis, of course.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Homeschooling (spp's response to multiple posts)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 6 JAN 93 19:58:25 GMT

Steve Pope writes:

>So to sum up my view of homeschooling:
>
>(1) For the parents who practice it, it's pretty much a
>religion.  (a red flag goes up right there...)
>
>(2) There probably are some benefits to the child's
>education in some individual cases.
>
>(3) Pulling the strings are the far-right conservative
>leaders, who take advantage of the vulnerability of those
>caught up in "homeschooling fever" to promote their
>sexist, anti-environment, and anti-gay agendas.
>
>(4) Given the above, the potential educational benefits
>of homeschooling do not come close to outweighing the
>social cost.  Homeschooling therefore should be strongly
>discouraged.

How about this idea?  To paraphrase the very sensible pro-choice
bumper sticker:  "If you don't believe in home-schooling,
don't do it."

I don't see why you have the right to "strongly discourage" individuals
from homeschooling their own children any more than fundamentalists have
a right to harass women who want to have abortions.  You conduct your
life according to your lights, and leave other people alone.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Summary: Godwin reveals moral action is indoctrination
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 01:57:21 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.190559.27362@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>>And the woman who goes upstairs 
>>with that frat boy (I believe this is one of Paglia's examples) is
>>an irresponsible idiot if she expects nothing more than stimulating
>>literary discussion will happen? 
>
>It seems indisputable that she's taking a risk. The issue is whether this
>risk can be eliminated by proper indoctrination of everyone. 

	Since when is moral autonomy "proper indoctrination"?  Or did I
miss the ABA's latest newspeak bulletin?   

>
>Her position about feminist prescriptions is simply this: the notion that
>rape is a social construct is misleading and dangerous, because it gives
>rise to the expectation that properly indoctrinated males won't commit
>date rape. This expectation, Paglia says, both disempowers women and puts
>them in danger.
>

	Paglia's position disempowers everyone because it diminishes
moral responsibility.  Men can excuse themselves as "programmed" towards
"the fun of rape," while women have to properly kowtow to "the elemental
powers of sexuality."  This is irrational bullshit demeaning human freedom.


	ObBook: Kant, _Grundlegung zur Metaphysik der Sitten_.

Cordially,

Michael S. Rooney

"Great loves do not _want_ love -- they want more."
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:12:15 CST
From: Cole Kendall <U48073@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
 <1993Jan8.074913.3098@genie.slhs.udel.edu>
 <1993Jan8.181604.8821@Princeton.EDU> <1993Jan8.201223.16236@eff.org>

In article <1993Jan8.201223.16236@eff.org>, mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) says:
>In article <1993Jan8.181604.8821@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu     r
>(Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>>Horseshit.  Johnson told us nothing new about any of these people.  He
>>did, however, pluck out certain aspects of the lives of these people,
>>ostensibly to prove some point about the value of their work and about
>>a larger class of people.
>
>In these four lines, Roger sums up Paul Johnson's book perfectly.
>
I disagree.  Call me naive, but I was unaware of some of the more
egregious differences between what some of these notables preached
and what they did.  I agree that some of Johnson's subjects, e.g.
Mailer, are well known for their behaviors and their words can
be evaluated with some sense of who is speaking.  But in other cases,
e.g. Rousseau and Marx, it is important to know the person behind
the words.

Cole Kendall
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Books I Got For Xmas
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 00:05:57 GMT

> chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe) writes:

>Slim haul this year - 
>
>Edgar Rice Burroughs, _The Land that Time Forgot_ or title to that effect, and
>Dennis Overby, _Lonely Hearts of the Cosmos_, one of the better pieces of
> 		pop. science I've seen lately.  

My personal reference library swelled to undreamt of
proportions with the enthusiastically welcomed addition of:

The American Heritage Dictionary (3rd Edition)
The Oxford Book of Quotations
Partridge's Concise Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English
The Oxford Companion to the American Theatre

>BTW, has anyone else been following Masterpiece Theater?  Their Jeeves and
>Bertie is great fun, though Jeeves is younger (and Bertie older) than I'd
>visualized.

I'm enjoying it very much, and like the new portrayals,
though very different from the Ian Carmichael/Dennis
Price versions I grew up on.  Stephen Fry's Jeeves is
really quite delightful, but he could never be described
as "shimmering across the room"...
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction (Was: 92 in rabreview)
Summary: Wrong Wife
Organization: The Inner Clique
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 00:34:25 GMT


The RABworm writes:

	Mark Taranto writes:

		I didn't read one damn book on my 10 day honeymoon, and had 
		no problems figuring out what to do with my free time.

	Perhaps if you and your bride had done more reading, your honeymoon 
	might have been more of an exemplar than previously posted 
	lamentations from yourself have indicated.

When I read this, I thought "What the hell is he talking about?"  Then
it hit me that Francis thought I was talking about my honeymoon with
my first, bookish, wife -- the one who knows Joe Green, and whom I used
to refer to as my literary mentor.  Nope -- that honeymoon was only
three days in New York (I was living in Philadelphia at the time), and
also involved no books (though we did see a play).

The second honeymoon was with my second, less-bookish-though-quite-bright,
wife -- and it involved driving through Scotland, where we had Neeps and
Tatties with our Haggis, instead of Clapshot.

Mark




Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: das@emmapeel.ca.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Stark Naked
Organization: Yet Another Graphics Project, Bellevue, WA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:39:44 GMT

>>In article <1992Dec23.233225.529@u.washington.edu> hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless) writes:
>
>>>In the mid-70s, a UW law student told me that he had become acquainted
>>>with a trio of fellow students named (he swore it was true):  Swindler,
>>>Lawless, and Moneymaker.  Ah, if only they had set up a practice together!
>

My across-the-street neighbors are a very nice husband-and-wife attorney
team - last name of Lawless.  Possible the same Lawless as above.  Don't
think they went into practice with Swindler and Moneymaker, though (too
bad, it _would_ have been great!).
------
Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.ca.boeing.com  // ....uw-beaver!bcsaic!voodoo!das
  "I've never fallen in love, but I've stepped in it a few times."
				     - from _Peter's Friends_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Books I Got For Xmas
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:52:22 GMT

In article <4JAN93.19261610@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>Maybe.  I'm not so sure.  I think people are more demanding of a female
>writer writing from a male point of view.

How would one test this hypothesis?

I note that on another system I participate in (the WELL), there is
much *more* questioning of male writers' ability to write from a woman's
perspective than there is of the converse.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Paglia
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 06:59:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.234504.20824@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
} 
}I've seen lots of criticism of Paglia since I first started recommending
}her book, and most of the criticism of her self-presentation has come from
}women who see her as an enemy of feminism. If it seems that more men are
}saying so here, consider the relative numbers of men and women on Usenet.

Just to spice up your experience of Paglia-criticism, I think she may be too
soft on sexual harassment laws.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction 
Date: 8 Jan 93 07:26:04 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1993Jan4.183703.12584@ncar.ucar.edu>, chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe) writes:

[...]

> Now THERE are the makings of an interesting thread.  OK, fellow bookaholics,
> just why do you read so much?  What does it add to your lives?  

Sanity is the reality perceived and conceived by the majority--of all
the people who ever lived.  Reading gives you access to more of those
people.

-Ken
-- 
miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu | Graecis ac barbaris, sapientibus et
opinions are my own      | insipientibus debitor sum
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Crossdressing in Literature
Date: 5 Jan 1993 21:31:21 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <1ic55oINNcto@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu
(Francis Muir) writes: 

>Mark Taranto writes: 
>	As for women writing from the point of view of men, and vice 
>	versa, I find that women are, in general, more successful in 
>	writing from the *other* viewpoint.  Until recently, I could 
>	think of *no* example of a first person narrative where I 
>	thought that a man was convincing as a woman.  Certainly, 
>	E. M. Forster creates realistic women -- but we see them in 
>	the third person.
>
>There is something rather odd about a man deciding that other men are
>less successful at writing about women as women are about men. Not wrong,
>mind you, just odd. In any case, it sounds as though you are due for a dose
>of E.F. Benson, whose "Lucia" novels resonate with the sound of women's 
>voices. Benson lies on a straight line exactly ewuidistant between the
>satire of Peacock and the wit of Wodehouse; social commentary with a
>dash of Worcestershire (pronounced Wooster, of course) sauce. Forster
>versus Benson would make for an illuminating thread. 
>
>						RABworm

I don't know about Forster **versus** Benson, but a comparison would be
interesting.  I must read up on my Forster.  My memory of his books (last
read, _Maurice_ and a collection of short stories) is that he is a
compassionate observer, Benson's compassion tempered by his vast great
humor. (My list of *to read* is getting longer, and I had better get to
it!).  There's a fairly recent edition of _Mrs. Ames_ by Benson, which is
called a 'pivotal' work in the introduction.  Many of the factors that
make the "Lucia" saga so engrossing are there, but there is a darker side. 
I find this early novel, although not as superbly crafted as "Lucia" et
al, has more in common with Forster's books than Benson's later ones.
_Mrs. Ames_ has an illuminating introduction.  Benson had the most
interesting family, and his own life was fascinating.  I suppose I should
look for a bio. 

Mary Loveless  hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of my opinions are self-righteously my own and **certainly** have
nothing to do with the University of Washington.
*"Too much of a good thing can be *wonderful*."  Mae West
*"I wonder how I'd look in *Madonna's* underwear."  Zippy the Pinhead
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re:  92 in rabreview
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:13:22 GMT

wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith):
>
>I read one book in 1992.  It was a very good book, but the title and
>the author's name escape me at the moment.  I highly recommend it.
>
>I'm now searching for a book to read in 1993.  I want to start soon
>so I'll finish this year.

Try "The Little Prince".  It's got everything: interplanetary travel,
ecological disaster, airplane crashes, elephants, and symbols.

It ends on a cliff-hanger, but this is to the good:  If you like it,
you can read the sequel (in "The Book of Sequels") in 1994.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   'T is with our judgements as our watches, none
   Go alike, yet each believes his own
		--Alexander Pope
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homeschooling (was  Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith)
Date: 6 Jan 1993 00:29:43 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
NNTP-Posting-Host: zion.berkeley.edu

In article <13792@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>Or perhaps in the public schools with which you have experience.
>My experience in my own public schooling, and in what I have seen
>here in Sonoma County, confirms the "liberal educators with
>their social agendas" viewpoint.

Actually it's the homeschoolers who have a conservative
social agenda, not the educators who have a liberal one.

I was reading (article in New Yorker, Nov 9 1992) about
how the recently failed anti-gay initiative in Oregon
(measure 9) had as part of its initial constituency
"150,000 homeschoolers".   Bleahh.

So you don't like the schools in Sonoma County.  You
are free to move out of the state, y'know.

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ashall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew S Hall)
Subject: Bookstore Anecdote
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:41:13 GMT

A while ago I was in a local bookstore chain and had the most
amusing experience.

A woman was looking some school books for her high school son.
She needed Oedipus the King and Antigone. The only books she
could find were Oedipus Rex and Antigone. She appealed to the
clerk for help and he actually searched around and tried to
find Oedipus the King for here w/o success. It wasn't until
I intervened that anyone could figure out what to do.

It is pretty sad when bookstore employees don't know even the
basics about literature. (And this wasn't a national chain, but
a local one that prides itself on being a really good bookstore.)
I think more bookstores should be like Borders and have employees
pass tests before being hired.

Andrew Hall
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1993Jan8.181604.8821@Princeton.EDU> <1993Jan8.201223.16236@eff.org>
	<93008.161215U48073@uicvm.uic.edu>
Date: 8 Jan 93 16:24:55

It seems to me that when someone writes about how people ought to
live, how he lives is relevant to evaluating the ideas.  In particular,
Rousseau's life is relevant to evaluating his work, and Russell's life
is relevant to evaluating that part of his work which concerns how
people ought to live.

Let us assume that the writers were sincere in their advice.  It says
something if they are incapable of living as they advise others to live.

Consider Rousseau saying that people are born free but live in chains
and his proposed remedies for that.  Did he include by not living in
chains not being obliged to take care of one's children.  Most people
would not take that as part of his meaning just from reading his
writings.

--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books