HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Geo Prizm vs Saturn SL1/2
Date: 28 Jan 1993 16:21:17 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu


[comparison btwn SL1/prizm deleted]

We looked at the SL2 versus the Prizm.  We were not interested in the SL1
due to its smaller engine. 

The Prizm will cost less up front, but probably not as much less as you
thought since Chevy/Geo insist on making such things as a rear window
defroster and other necessities optional.  The list of "options" is truly
mind-boggling. The Saturn includes most all of that stuff in the basic
car (remote trunk and fuel releases, etc.) The drawback of Saturn's 
approach are that some of the options are very expensive (e.g. power locks,
A/C), but if you don't want them, they're very cheap ;o). Saturn A/C is
over $800 and the power locks are only available as part of a "power
package". On the other hand, Saturn's ABS is relatively cheap, $550, and
works very well.

The Chevy/Geo dealer we talked to was really slimy and kept talking about
how Chevy has 3000 more dealers nationwide than Saturn.  I really didn't
give a damn and the very next day, there was an announcement that Chevy
was cutting 1500-2000 dealers from its network. The dealer would not talk
price at all and kept playing the "how much would you pay for this?" game
along with the "I have no power here, I'll go talk to the sales manager."
ploy.  We got the hell out.

Saturn wouldn't deal, but the price was uninflated and made for a nonadversarial
relationship with the salesman. Service after the sale has been superb.

I believe that the Saturn is a superior car. The engine design and fabrication
process result in a reliable, cheap to produce, machine.  Build quality is
very high and performance is very satisfying. The cockpit layout of the
Geo is better, but the gauges in the Saturn are so much better, it's not
even fair to compare. 

We hit a tree in the road during the first 2000 miles with our Saturn.
The polymer (polyethylene, I believe) front spoiler completely protected
all the suspension and brake components and cost only $110 to replace
(not including labor, etc.). The body shop said that Saturn's paint was
favorably comparable to BMW's. Judging from the sheetmetal gauge on the
Geo, our experience would have been very different.

Bottom line: You may be happy with either car, and the Geo may be cheaper,
but the Saturn gives you a lot more car for the relatively small extra
investment.

David Basiji
SL2/blueblack
UW Bioengineering
NeRD #3762

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: cro69@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee?
Keywords: SUV
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:22:08 GMT

I have heard overall good reviews of the new Grand Cherokee, and plan to
invest in one later this summer.  The "dismal" repair record that CR stated
was in reflection to the old Cherokee model.  The only similarity between
the old and the new is the the I-6 engine, and I believe that was not the
problem in the past as in drive-train.
I also heard on the news last night that due to the unexpected demand in
these vehicles, Chrysler is considering NOT closing down the Toledo plant
orginally announced last year, solely to produce more of these SUV's.
The Grand Cherokee was mentioned briefly on PBS Motorweek last year and
they sponsered a Laredo version for a Siberian express-type road race for
off road vehicles that ran from Europe through Asia.  2 non-professional
drivers who were actually journalists drove the vehicle not in competition
but to report on the race itself.  They finished but did not win any medals
or the like.  I have been looking for an article I figure they would have
written on this experience, but to no avail.  I would bet they would have
offered a very thorough review of this vehicle's performance in all the
nasty terrain they covered.
All in all, I think Chrysler has done America (and themselves) a good turn
on producing what appears to be a very good product that can compete with
the best the world has to offer.  It's about time!

-Chuck Ortt- cro69
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: rjwade@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J. Wade)
Subject: Re: Politics of car buying(Buying a Japanese car)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:24:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.132913.7601@bnr.ca> dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton) writes:
>In article <CARL.93Jan26153758@atlantis.Cayman.COM>, carl@Cayman.COM (Carl Heinzl) writes:
>|> 
>|> >Everyone seems to be missing a few really basic points in this
>|> >discussion of our trade imbalance.  First: population and
>|> >productivity.  Japan has a comparatively small population and high
>|> >productivity.  USA has a high population and lower productivity.  So
>|> 
>|> First, Japan has approximatly 50% the population of the US.  I would
>|> NOT consider that small!!!
>
>Actually, I believe the population of Japan is about 80 million, while the
>population of the U.S. is about 260 million (re: 30%).
>
all right...someone look it up...we have quotes of 80-238 million....
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: tedebear@leland.Stanford.EDU (Theodore Chen)
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 05:46:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.234608.11303@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen) writes:
>How can you say their sample size is too small. Do you know what
>tolerances they are willing to accept?

i didn't say that it was.  i was only responding to your question
about the significance of the sample size.  i don't know what
sample size CR uses, and i offered no judgments as to the reliability
of the sample size chosen by CR.  (i did express some doubt about
whether the survey responses are truly valid, which is another matter.)

-teddy
From: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Why is US engine technology so retrogr
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:47:18 GMT
Reply-To: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com
Organization: G.M. Research Laboratories

In article 1jq353INN9ft@gaia.ucs.orst.edu, crowede@ucs.orst.edu (Debra Crowe) writes:
|>In article <1993Jan22.221059.11074@leland.Stanford.EDU>
|>tedebear@leland.Stanford.EDU (Theodore Chen) writes:
|>>In article <IfLw32G00ioW8Ns6J6@andrew.cmu.edu> jyri+@CMU.EDU (Jyri Virkki)
|>writes:
|>>>Large, torqey (sp?) engines feel very different from small high
|>>>revving engines. You pick whichever you like the most. Me, I think big
|>>>engines are good for trucks and luxury cars, neither of which I have
|>>>any interest in. For sport[y|s] cars, like your example above, a large
|>>>engine would be disgusting. Large engines tend to be sluggish and low
|>>>revving, thus no fun at all on a sports car.
|>>
|>>oh, really.  you haven't driven a corvette LT1 lately, have you?
|>>hair-trigger throttle response at any engine speed.  compare that
|>>to the 300ZX turbo, which needs to see 4 grand to produce any kind
|>>of power.
|>>
|>>-teddy
|>>
|>yup, there's nothing more fun than being able to squeak 'em in third gear!
|>makes the 4 cylinder cars sit up and take notice...
|>(makes me feel sooooo high school ;)
|>

Only third? Then you aren't trying very hard or you don't have
the recent LT1. Of course, you do have to turn off the traction control
to get a really good burn.

---
  	Robert Haar               InterNet : rhaar@gmr.com 
	Computer Science Dept., G.M. Research Laboratories
DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is
personal opinion, not an official statement of General Motors Corp.


Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: hue@island.COM (Pond Scum)
Subject: Re: INSURANCE RATES?
Organization: Island Graphics Corp.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:44:23 GMT


todd@dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu (Todd Smith) writes:
> yeah, you think that's bad, i'm 28, male, single with a clean record
> and the best i can do for a '93 stripped cherokee (granted, it does
> have 4wd) is $1450+ FOR SIX MONTHS OF COVERAGE.
>
> yes, i am still shopping around and no, i am not getting particularly
> screwed: i do live in houston/harris county texas.

I'm 29, single, and right now with an '82 Toyota Pickup and an '87 Toyota
MR2, I'm paying $1600/yr to Allstate (full coverage, $250/$500 deductible,
100k/300k/50k).  I'm considering buying a '93 Grand Cherokee and the
quote from my agent was an extra $192 every six months (replace the
pickup with the Grand Cherokee).

I'm getting a good driver discount, renewal discount, multiple car
discount, and non-smoker discount right now.  I believe Allstate
gives discounts for ABS and air bag, I'm not sure my agent was
aware that the Grand Cherokee I'm considering comes with both, nor
do I know if the fact that it has an alarm system is worth a discount
either.  I'm going to shop around for a better rate, but I've got
a couple tickets.

-Jonathan		hue@island.COM
From: aland@informix.com (Colonel Panic)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Honda perfection management
Date: 21 Jan 93 04:12:26 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Helen Keller Bondurant's Performance Driving School for the Blind

In article <ELI.93Jan20092614@glare.cisco.com> eli@cisco.com (Steve Elias) writes:
>2 for 2 with new hondas.  0 for 2 with new GMs.
>
>total perfection, dude.  this doesn't impress you?

Not really.  

>how many vehicles do you know of which had 0 defects 0 repairs
>in that many miles?  please name the makes and models of such vehicles
>that you have owned or you know about for sure.

The only absolute 0 and 0 I personally have experience with in over 30K miles
are my mom's Saturn SL1 and my Toyota Celica GT-S.  (The GT-S ate its
fuel pump at about 38K, to the tune of $500).  My Probe GT had zero defects 
on delivery and has none so far (3K miles).

None of the 7 Hondas bought new in my family in the last 11 years qualifies.
Three ate one or both front rotors, for example.

>i bought 2 new GM products, each had thousands

What year(s)?  What models?

>of dollars of warranty work done IN THE FIRST 3 MONTHS, and thousands
>more done by 50k.  if i typed in all the problems, your fuckin disk
>drive would overflow.  if anyone objects to my use of "yucky swear
>words", use a kill file so you don't have to read my articles.

Not a bad thought.

>regarding your scoffing at my "expectations", because i'm impressed
>with perfection after 35k and 15k miles.  drop some facts instead of
>attitude, guy.  

Two cars does not a trend make.
Come back and post again when you have 100K on each.  Neither of your
cars is beyond the 3 years / 36K level.

>also, what point are you trying to make with the 36k warranty
>mention below?  is it ok with you if your car shits the bed as
>long as it is covered under warranty?  do you have a lot of time

Of course not -- the point is that it's in the manufacturer's financial best
interest to make damn sure everything is right in that timeframe, at least.

>/eli

If your sole interest is anecdotal flamage, take this to email.

--
Alan Denney      aland@informix.com      {pyramid|uunet}!infmx!aland

   "The other night I was lying in bed, looking up at the stars, and
              I wondered, "Where the FUCK is my ROOF ?!?"
                                      -- cadesjardins@descartes.waterloo.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: alc@gdstech.GRUMMAN.COM (Al Chang)
Subject: Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee?
Organization: Grumman Corporation
	<1k0p61INN4h9@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:32:57 GMT

In article <1k0p61INN4h9@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM> dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard) writes:

   >I have heard overall good reviews of the new Grand Cherokee, and plan to
   >invest in one later this summer.  The "dismal" repair record that CR stated
   >was in reflection to the old Cherokee model.  The only similarity between
   >the old and the new is the the I-6 engine, and I believe that was not the
   >problem in the past as in drive-train.
   >I

   The Cherokees have been in production for almost 10 years.  Why haven't the
   bugs been shaken out of it?  It, too, was hailed by the automotive press, and
   single-handedly started the down-sized "SUV" revolution in the early 80s.  It
   won Car-of-The-Year awards frome everyone.

   Yet the lemons continued to roll of the assembly line.

   I bought a new 1992 Jeep Wrangler.  Lemon city.

   Lemons are one thing, any car line will have a few.  What separates the men from
   the boys are the percentage of such, and the way the dealer/manufacturer handles
   them.  Based on my experience with Jeep, I wouldn't recommend one to anybody.

   The Grand Cherokees are undoubtedly popular, and Chrysler has a hit on its hands...
   just like in the old days w/the Cherokee.  Question is, what indication is there
   that Jeep has learned any lessons?  Why believe them THIS time?  Only time will tell.

   Maybe Jeep has learned its lesson this time, but its for Jeep to prove it to me,
   not for me to take a chance on it.


You have to remember, Chrysler (for better hopefully,) brought it from
AMC. They inherited all of AMC's headache. They got sued and lost
quite a bit of money with the wagoneer' tailgate power window. If you
don't remember, some mother left the key in the tailgate and when a
kid stuck their head out the tailgate and some how the key was turn
and closed the window on the kid's head. Also, they had to deal
with other design flaws of the jeeps and the Renaults (Premier)

If you look at some of the components, they are being switched from
the past Jeep sources to Chrysler's. It cost less to redesign than
come out with a lot of flaws. So that takes time. 

My question is why keep the old Jeep Cherokee? Is the extra money
worth the reputation damage?

BTW, my sister has a Grand, she had two problems, banging exhaust and
bad (design) hatchback latch. Both was repaired with redesigned
modifications. She had to also get the tailgate door dent fixed when
she got made one day and banged it when she couldn't get it open
(before the fix.) The dealer fixed the dent for no charge. Kidda
stupid of her to dent it.

Al
From: wall@mcm.com (Steve Wall)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Experience with Toyota 4Runner?
Date: 28 Jan 93 18:05:32 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Mellon Capital Management Corp. San Francisco, CA.

I'm thinking of purchasing a Toyota 4Runner, probably a pre-1988
model (the year they updated the body, etc.?). Can anybody answer
some of the following questions?: 

	* I understand that 1988 (?) and prior were designed so
	  the rear cover could be removed, the back seat removed
	  and you end up with somewhat of a truck bed. Is this
	  true? How hard is it to put on/take off the cover?

	* Did they make V6s in 1988 and prior? Mostly 4cyls?

	* Is the 4cyl powerful enough for medium hauling, ski
	  trips, etc. - I don't intend to do heavy offroad stuff.

	* Is the engine reliable, strong, etc?

	* Any strange quirks anywhere in/on the vehicle?

	* Cost of maintaining 4x4 mechanisms?

	* Do you have to screw with lug bolts (?) when shifting
	  to 4x4?



Any other info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the help!

Steve 
-- 

Steve Wall (wall@mcm.com)
Mellon Capital Management Corporation
San Francisco, CA
From: dah@cveng121.veheng.det (Dewane A. Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Prism Vs. Corolla
Date: 28 Jan 93 18:06:42 GMT
Reply-To: dah@cveng121.veheng.det
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.


Does anyone have the sale numbers on these two
vehicles for the past two years?

--------------------------------------
Don`t laugh at my sig because my other
sig is a classic.
From: erodrigu@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Edgar Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Taurus now #1 seller?
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:35:30 GMT
Reply-To: erodrigu@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Edgar Rodriguez)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Annapolis, MD

In rec.autos, qazi@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Aamir Hafeez Qazi) writes:
>In article <wfMrhV200WBM86MWo8@andrew.cmu.edu> so0z+@andrew.cmu.edu (Sang-Yoon
>Oh) writes:
>>
>>I have a question on this number one selling car in the US.
>>According to the articles I have read, Ford gave a big promo to rental
>>car companies(dumping may be the right word here) in order to beat
>>Accord.
>
>--I was just thinking about this the other day.  If the sales figures indeed
>  include fleet sales to rental car companies and the like, then I believe
>  they should be left out.  I believe that virtually all Accords are bought
>  by households, not in large quantities in the fleet market (I haven't seen
>  an Accord rental car, have you?).  I think that sales figures should
>  represent what the American PUBLIC buys, not what American business buys.

    I rented a compact at Hertz once but they ran out of escort's so
I got an Accord. That's the only time I've seen one.


	      Edgar
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
From: cshafai@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca (Cyrus Shafai)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Before Buying Foreign (was Re: Before Buying Japanese).
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:00:55 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

In rec.autos you write:

>>I know most of Chryslers award winning mini-vans are made in Korea,
>>Chryslers company saving LH is made in Canada, and almost ANYTHING GM
>>makes is produces in Canada, Mexico or S. America.

Wrong.  The Crysler Town & Country is make in St. Louis.
        The Dogde Caravan is made in St. Louis and Canada
        The Plymouth Voyager is made in St. Louis and Canada.

None are from Korea.

As, for GM, I don't have time to list the all the models.
Buick.  The only buick made in Canda is the Regal.
Cadillac  All are made in the US, except the body of the Alante
Chevrolet.    The Camaro and Lumina are made in Canada.  All others in
              the US according to my book.  The CAvalear is made in Ohio.
Oldsmobile   All of them, even the Cutlass is made in the US.
Pontiac      The Lemans is made in Korea, I don't know about the firebird
             All others are made in the US.

All the above data is fromthe 1993 issue of Consumer Guide Auto 93.

Even with all the US production, the US has lost 600,000 jobs in  the
auto industry.  JApanese transpant companies have created 100 000 jobs.
So there is a net loss of half a million jobs.
                                            
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Cyrus Shafai                        <cshafai@ee.umanitoba.ca>
The Scanning Tunneling Microscopy Laboratory  -  STM/AFM Lab
University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada   ph. (204) 474-6007
From: tvervaek@col.hp.com (Tom Vervaeke)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Is it OK to wash off the engine?
Date: 26 Jan 1993 16:55:09 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: itchub21.cs.itc.hp.com


ALmost all used car dealers degrease and steam clean the engine
compartment. Any good detailing shop can get it done or recommend
someone. It only takes a few minutes. I like to get mine done every year
or so as it is so dusty here in Colorado.  Costs me about $15-25 bucks.


( ___ )------------------------------------------------------------( ___ )
 | / | Tom Vervaeke           Email:tom_vervaeke@hp0800.desk.hp.com | \ |
 | / | Technology Specialist  Snail: 1900 Garden of the Gods Rd.    | \ |
 | / | Hewlett Packard Co.           Colorado Springs, CO 80901     | \ |
 | / | Colorado Springs, CO   Voice    : 719-590-2133               | \ |
 | / | USA                    Fax      : 719-590-2117               | \ |
 | / |--------------------------------------------------------------| \ |
 | / | Quote of the week...                                         | \ |
 |___|           Quote deleted do to lack of creativity !!!         |___|
(_____)------------------------------------------------------------(_____)
   ^                                                                  ^

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: rwc@ius4.ius.cs.cmu.edu (Randy Casciola)
Subject: Re: Honda expectation management (was Re: Before Buying Japanese) (lon
Organization: CMU Vision and Autonomous Systems
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:40:46 GMT

In article <93020.081214DCROWE@GITVM1.BITNET>, DCROWE@GITVM1.BITNET writes:
> My Honda gets the oil changed (including filter) at the dealer for $15.
> 
> Devon
> 
> P.S., the first service was free.

My '90 Integra gets the oil and filter changed for $6.90.  It also
gets a bath for no extra charge while it's there.  All at the Acura
dealer.  The catch is, this is only good for 10 oil changes.  I bought
what they call the Engine Security Service (or something like that)
which included a card that can be punched ten times for 10 oil
changes.  The card cost $69.00, and I didn't even buy my car at that
dealer.  I use it in the winter months when the car is all slushy
underneath and the garage floor is cold.  I change it myself the other
times of the year, so I don't know what the regular price of an oil
change is at that dealer.  I know it's less than $30 which is just
a few dollars more than at most quik lube type places around here.

Randy Casciola
Research Engineer
The Robotics Institute
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, Pa
From: sheriffp@Software.Mitel.COM (Peter Sheriff)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Bleeding Brake Lines on a Ford F-100: I need help!
Keywords: Ford, F-100, F100, Pickup, Pick-up, Brakes, Bleed
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:38:52 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.


     The bleed nipples are 3/8" AF not metric. Use a six sided socket to
start the nipple moving and then put a box wrench on it to do the bleed.
If you still have trouble moving it, spray it with penetrating oil and
then try TIGHTENING and loosening it alternately. Use firm but not heavy
torque on the wrench or you may break off the nipple.
     The nipples have normal threads so you unscrew it in an anticlockwise
direction.

                           Pete
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mark@wdcwdc.sps.mot.com (Mark Shaw)
Subject: Re: Politics of car buying(Buying a Japane
Organization: Motorola Western MCU Design Center, Chandler Arizona
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:27:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.164827.26864@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>, gvanmoor@nrao.edu (Gustaaf Van Moorsel,,,) writes:
|> In Germany, where there are even fewer restrictions on importing cars than in the US
|> (no quota, no extra taxes on light trucks), Japanese cars are almost as successful as
|> they are in the US. The US car segment is vanishingly small, though it has seen some
|> increase in the last couple of years due to the low dollar. Still, an American made
|> care is something of a rarity apart from the vicinity of US bases.

I seriously doubt that Japan has 20% of the German market like they do in US.  
Germany has always been very nationalistic in their car buying habits.
Do you have some numbers to demonstrate this claim?

The US actually has a strong dominance in Europe thru GM's Opel subsidiary
and Ford of Europe.   Also, with the EEC coming up there must be significant
European content in products sold there.  It just doesn't make sense for
Ford or GM to import cars to Germany, when they can make what the local
customers want right in their backyard with basically no tariff penalties.

Mark
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: morton@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Brent Morton)
Subject: Re: What is a Volvo 265 GL?
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:18:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.194119.16516@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> rdb1@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (ronald.j.deblock..jr) writes:
>I saw a Volvo 265 GL wagon with a "For Sale" sign yesterday.  It looks like
>an old 240.  What is the difference between a 265 and a 240?

The 260 series has a six-cylinder engine.

-- Brent
morton@artifis.gaul.csd.uwo.ca

Newsgroups: rec.autos