HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken)
Subject: Re: Is it okay under Orthodox Islamic teaching to kill non-Muslim dakwa people?
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:51:32 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1h984fINNiki@aludra.usc.edu> jodar@chaph.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar) writes:
>In article <chai.725045883@redwood.cs.uiuc.edu> spectre@uiuc.edu (Ian) writes:

[ part about a Christian given a death sentence in Saudi Arabia for
  proselytizing deleted. ]

>Preaching, in itself, is not punishable, according to the Sunnat.

Could you (or others) provide a reference for this, please?

>There are, however, situations in which a Judge may exercise
>al-Ta'zir.  (eg. A 'Druggies for Satan' worshipper passing out
>LSD tabs to schoolchildren.)
>
>Opinion:  The Death Penalty is rare in Islam, and the only way 
>the above could be justified is if Magdangal was actually an 
>agent of insurrection.  (This is doubtful....)

But if a country is ruled by an Islamic government, couldn't
any person publicly preaching or even discussing another
religion be considered an agent of insurrection, since he
is trying to get people to leave Islam?  Isn't this similar
to the reasoning where it is considered treason for a Muslim
to leave Islam, and in some circumstances (some people say
all circumstances) the apostate should be killed for this treason?

And couln't any judge exercise al-Ta'zir for any sort of
prosyletization, if that was the prevailing view of the
local ulema?

Thanks for any feedback.  I welcome any clarifications or
corrections to my above comments and questions.
--
Dave Bakken                               Internet: bakken@cs.arizona.edu
Dept. of Computer Science; U of Arizona   Voice:    +1 602 621 4098      
Tucson, AZ 85721; USA                     FAX:      +1 602 621 4246
The fact that you're paranoid doesn't prove they're *not* out to get you.
From: fmbutt@engage.sps.mot.com (Farooq M. Butt)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Extremely offensive show about Muslims airing in Austin, TX
Date: 7 Jan 1993 00:02:38 GMT
Organization: Motorola RISC Software, Austin, TX
Reply-To: fmbutt@engage.sps.mot.com (Farooq M. Butt)
NNTP-Posting-Host: geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu

The following is probably of little interest to folks outside Austin, TX:



I happened to be watching cable channel 32 in Austin TX day before
yesterday evening and saw an appalling show presented by a Dr. Robert
Morey of the "Center For Education And Research".  The show was
entitled "Islam Unvieled: The True Desert Storm" and was a 1/2 hour
devoted to slandering and mocking Islam as not even being worthy of a
religion ("Islam is only 7th century Arab Culture" [sic]).  The show's
presenter went on to laugh at muslim dress and prayer likening it to
meeting a couple on the street "dressed in 18th century dress,
claiming that George Washington [I assume a barb directed at the
propher Muhammad] is a prophet of God and that everyone should pray in
the direction of the Washington Monument" !  Dr. Robert Morey went on
about muslims "running around" the kaabaa as being roughly equivalent
to running around the Washington monument.  Of course he also spent a
long time on showing how Islam encourages wife beating and treats
women like second class citizens.

This guy is spreading some serious filth about Islam and I would encourage 
all muslims in Austin to quickly call their masjid as well as 
Austin Cablevision about this hate-mongering, defamatory show.  The 
show I saw was part I of the series! If we do not band together, we 
will only have ourselves to blame if we begin to get treated much like 
jews were in 1930s Germany.


fmb

-- 
Standard High-Tech Disclaimer: NOTHING  in the above article has the slightest 
relationship to reality. If any reality correspondences are found, please 
notify me IMMEDIATELY. Any threats, abuse or stupidity of any kind is purely 
UNintentional. These are MY Opinions NOT my employer's.

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: shah@cherry.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Shahrin Abdullah)
Subject: 4 Gospel & Buddhism & Pork
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 19:13:51 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Salam to all my muslim friends.

I need your views/explanations about certain things which I am not sure or
forgotten with the passage of time.

1) I seem to forgot the incident over why pork was banned by our prophet,
   Muhammad beside the reasons that it was a filthy source of food. Could
   anyone help me to recall my memory?

2) Could I say that the 4 Gospel as mentioned in the Bible that is St. Mark,        Luke, etc. are close follower of Jesus Christ? Are they Muslim?

3) The Buddhist believe in reincarnation. In recent year there is a European
   boy who was claimed to be the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama - a saintly
   buddhist monk. Now the boy was claimed to be able to recite his previous
   life which parallel the life of the dead Dalai Lama and he could also 
   perform some miracle, as claimed. I just wanted to get some view and 
   opinion from the rest of the Muslim reader regarding the whole incident.
   

Shahrin Abdullah.

Assala Mualai Kum.

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Re: JESUS HAS DIED - The Hadiths -Part III.
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 03:13:26 GMT


" Part III:                    PROPHET JESUS HAS DIED:  THE HADITH
" ****************************************************************

" 3)  In Bukhari, it is reported that in the spiritual event  known
" as  the  miraj,  the  Prophet  saw  Yahya and Jesus in the second
" heaven. If Yahya is dead, then Jesus is dead, for the dead do not
" keep company with the living.

   And if you remember, they greeted him. By the same token, the 
Prophet was dead. How smart!

" After the short speech and recitation of this verse, the  compan-
" ions  realized that indeed, the Prophet Muhammad had passed away.
" NO ONE OBJECTED THAT JESUS OR ANY OTHER  PROPHET  HAD  NOT  DIED.
" EVERYONE  ACCEPTED  AND  CONFIRMED THE DEATH OF ALL PREVIOUS PRO-
" PHETS.  THIS WAS THE FIRST IJMA OR CONSENSUS OF THE  MUSLIM  COM-
" MUNITY.

   But, unfortunately, A. Bakr knew that the Prophet was going to die
in a short time, shortly before his death. Otherwise, he, too, might
have made the same mistake.

**
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Allah's knowledge (previously Adams's children, Daajal, Tabligh ...)
Date: 10 Jan 1993 21:24:08 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <13077@hardy.rl.ac.uk> inf.rl.ac.uk@ncar.UCAR.EDU \(\) (Khalid Akram \(student-david;until 31/12/92\)) writes:

>Yes, I agree, Allah's knowledge cannot be limited by space time.
>That is not the issue.
>But, the paradox remains. Allah already knows which of us will go to
>hell or heavan.
>As I have heard said"
>
>	"The ink is dry, the book is closed."
>
>We are already destined to go to one or other. It is WRITTEN that we shall go
>to hell or heaven. It was already WRITTEN that I would be having these
>thoughts.
>Thus how can any actions we do change our going to hell/heaven??? -> since
>it is already written where we will go!!!
>
>Therefore what was the point of bringing the whole universe into being
>if Allah already knew what was going to happen to each and every particle??

Salaam Alekum.

Consider the case of a God that knows everything.  Now how how do you
know whether something is going to happen or not?  You do it by
figuring out what might happen.  Basically, you run a simulation.  How
would God find out what would happen?  If you do not believe that He
would create information out of nothing, it seems to me reasonable to
assume that He would also run a simulation.  The only difference
between your simulations is that His is perfect, whereas yours is not
[unless you limit your case to something less complicated than the
real world; in which case yours might be perfect but it would not
infinite].

Now, what is the difference between a perfect simulation and a real
thing?  Nothing.  The two are the same.  In other words, the world we
are living in is the simulation necessary for God to figure out
whether we are good or bad.

He is able to see what happens at the end, because He is not limited
by Time.  Furthermore, He has to allow it to run to its conclusion
otherwise we don't really have free will either.  That is why evil
is allowed to exist.

Basalat Ali Raja.


Disclaimer: This is just a bit of dime store philosophy.  It has
nothing to do with Islam really; it is not central to the faith.
It is just speculation.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: shamshoo@shelley.u.washington.edu (Shams Hasan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia
Summary: I am surprised at the ignorance about Saudi.....
Keywords: Saudi Arabia, the largest police state after South Africa
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:36:56 GMT
Reply-To: shamshoo@shelley.u.washington.edu (Shams Hasan)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <9212260743.AA05496@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> hhasan@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Hussain T. Hasan) writes:
>Assalaam-o-Alaikum
>
>I was recently asked the question given below by an American friend who had
>heard it from somebody.
>
>"Is is true that non-muslims are not allowed to practice their religion 
>(regardless which) in Saudi Arabia."
>
>I told the person that I highly doubt it, as Islam is very tolerant of other
>religions, but I was not sure so I decided to write it on the net.
>
>Please reply either to me directly, or to the newsgroup.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Hussain T. Hasan
>
>pppp   eeee  aaaaa  ccccc  eeee
>p   p  e     a   a  c      e
>pppp   eeee  aaaaa  c      eeee
>p      e     a   a  c      e
>p      eeee  a   a  ccccc  eeee

Dear Hussain T. Hasan,

I have lived and worked in Saudi Arabia, at Al-Khobar between 1984-1986 in
a Saudi industrial marketing firm with an American redneck G.M boss, with
whome I shared a house given as accomodation from the firm to both of us.

During that time I had the opportunity as Marketing Manager, to travel to
several locations in S.A, and then later during Umrah to Jiddah, Medina and
Mecca.

In my stay I met and talked with almost every foreigner and most large tribal
Bedouin people now educated and living in cities. These individuals imparted to
me a sense of helplessnes and absence of any human rights as we know in the
rest of the world.

Saudi Arabia, to my latest knowledge, does not allow practice of any other 
religion than Islam. It even does not allow sects in Islam to practice their
version or understanding of Islam, other than what Abdul Wahab taught in his
version of Islam generations ago in the Nejd/Riyadh region.

The state of policing is such that any individual, Saudi or non-Saudi, Muslim
or non-muslim can be arrested at any time from any location, including his/her
home, and detained without reason, unless ofcourse he/she has influnece that
can help the person.

It is the only state to my knowledge, after South Africa,(ironically both 
South Africa and Saudi Arabia have same initials ie. S.A) that discriminates
openly and unashamedly, with absolute power with the police and the King/princes. 

I hope I have answered your question as best as possible. However, I would like
to add, I do have Saudi friends  here in U.S and in Saudi Arabia who are an
excellent breed of fine individuals for whome I hold a high regard due to their
strength of character and good muslims, and so I cannot condemn the individuals
as they have no power in the running to their own country.

Best Regards,
Shams Hasan.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem)
Subject: Re: Existence of God
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 19:36:06 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

My dear brother Belal,

Thank you very much for your efforts.  May God bless you and reward you with
the best.  I hesitated a lot before I decided to compose this reply.  I think
most of your arguments don't work at all.  I think it is better that a Muslim
shows this to you than to leave it to the "atheist friends."

I will only pick a sample of your arguments (time constraints prevent me from
being more comprehensive):

1. All RELIGIONS BELIEVE IN GOD: Your argument here is basically what is
called in philosophy "the Psychological Argument."  It is attributed
originally to Freud, and it is an argument AGAINST the existence of God!  You
are saying:
 All peoples have religion
 All religions have God
 Therefore, God exists.

But the argument at best shows that God is a universal psychological need for
humans, not that He indeed exists.  If we both agree that we need unicorns to
make our bedtime stories nicer, it does not follow that unicorns do exist in
reality.

2. WHO ARE THOSE WHO CALL PEOPLE TOWARDS GOD?: Ummm.  I don't agree with the
stuff about philosophers.  There were some great philosophers who did stand
firmly and even died for their principles; e.g., Socrates.

3. EVEN DISBELIEVERS IN THEIR HEART ARE AFRAID OF GOD: I don't find this
convincing really.  Immanuel Kant derived all the moral principles from
rationality.  It is "normal" that we follow these moral principles because our
very essence is rationality.

Also, our need for God does not establish His existence.  On the contrary, our
need for God might support the claim that *we* created [the notion of] God,
not the other way round.

6. BELIEVERS ARE ALWAYS EXALTED ON OTHERS:
How about taking a look at the world around us?  Focus especially on Muslims
and you will see: Bosnia, Somalia, Tajikstan, etc.  Muslims are the lowest of
all nations.  (I know, you will say it's because they are not following true
Islam.  But an ateist will not be really convinced.)

Nevertheless I think you are making an endeavor that is important for all
Muslims, and for this I thank you.

Assalamu alaikum, Ahmad

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie
Subject: Re: Confusion about "Islam"
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:39:08 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In soc.religion.islam you write:

>Salaamu `Alaekum,

>Unfortunately, the immigrants (I'm one) who didn't grow up in this country
>would have us believe in dogma, and want us riding camels instead of cars.
>They carry with them cultural garbage (i.e. treatment of women) which they
>declare as Islamic.  This is WRONG.

Did any one tell you that riding a camel is dogma in Islam??

Did Islam tell us to describe the culture of others as garbage??

What they say about the treatment of women, do they say that women are
alien entities?  In fact I dont know who says, and what they say.
Also I don't know why does that bother you. If you have the proper
knowledge of Islam, then you should not worry about what the others say
and also you should feel happy that you have found people that need
guidance, and that you are in a position to offer that guidance.

>Islam's strengths are its adaptability and its encouragement to use our brains.
>Yet, these gifts from Allah (swt) are not used as such.  Insha'Allah, the
>reasonable, knowledgeable, and pragmatic Muslims will overcome the prejudices
>and ignorance of our brethren who still live in the 7th century.

Who are those pragmatic muslims and who are those ignorant brethern.

Since this is your first message on the net, as you have mentioned, I
would encourage you to write more specific messages, and I am sure your
subsequent messages will be more informative and more enlightening.

>Tamal Islam

Ahmed
Ahmed I. El-Habbash,
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
From: othman@ntrc25.ntrc.ntu.ac.sg (othman (EEE/Div 4))
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Results of some study about the killing issue.
Date: 6 Jan 93 01:08:49 GMT
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu


Ian (spectre@uiuc.edu) wrote:
: .............................................................................
: ..................KILL.PEOPLE.WHO.MIGHT.MAKE.YOU.DISBELIEVE..................
: .............................................................................
: 4:89. They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so
: that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends
: until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then
: seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among
: them a friend or a helper.

There is always the danger of misinterpreting someone if we just refer to
isolated sentences so I copied verses before and after the 4:89, which 
refers to the killing of those who make muslims disbelieve?

88. What is the matter with you, then, that you have become
two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them
return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to
guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever
Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.

89. They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved,
    ^^^^
**Shouldn't they here refer to the hypocrites mentioned in the previous verse?

so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from
among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way;
but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you
find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

90. Except those who reach a people between whom and you
there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking
from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had
pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they
should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw
from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah
has not given you a way against them.

: .............................................................................
: .............................MY.CLOSING.THOUGHTS.............................
: .............................................................................
: It seems like it would be somewhat of a contradiction to say "Kill people
: who might make you disbelieve," given "Kill only people who fight you" and

It should be corrected as "Kill hypocrites who desire to make you disbelieve"

: "No compulsion in religion."
: 
: I'd like to hear the thoughts of other people here.
: 
: 					Wassalam,
: 						Ian
: -- 
: ---                                      Xtrek is lovely, dark and deep.
: God is gracious = Yahya = Yochanan =        But I have promises to keep,
: Johannes = John = Jean = Jan = Ian     And megs to write before I sleep,
: Internet: chai@cs.uiuc.edu             And megs to write before I sleep.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: islambo@faraday.ee.washington.edu ( Tamal Islam 9211055)
Subject: Re: Is it okay under Orthodox Islamic teaching to kill non-Muslim dakwa people?
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:35:22 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Salaamu `Alaekum,

I took an Islamic civilization class last term.  One point that was indicated
was the difference between the deeds of the Crusaders and the deeds of Saladin
around the time of the liberation of Jerusalem.

When the Crusaders took Jerusalem, they slaughtered just about everything in
their path.  When Saladin came along and took back Jerusalem, he ransomed the
captives, and even set free some of those who couldn't afford the ransom.

Now let's head to Islamic Spain, which had a flourishing civilization under the
Muslims.  Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike prospered.  Then along came
Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492 (of Christopher Columbus fame).  They kicked all
of the Muslims and Jews out, and forcibly converted or killed the ones who
stayed.

This is not to say that Muslims haven't been guilty of the same in the past.
The Muslim world would not be in the situation it is today if our ancestors
had been good Muslims.

Religious tolerance has been a part of Islam since the time of the Prophet
(saws).  Remember that some Muslims were sent to Christian Abyssinia during
times (twice?) of intense persecution in Mecca.  And in Yathrib (Medina) after
the Hijra, pacts were made with the Jews, and peace existed with them, until
some of them turned traitor.

-- 

Tamal Islam
University of Washington, Seattle
EECS

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: arif@stat.fsu.edu (Arif Zaman)
Subject: Forbidden Food         
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:28:05 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1i82eiINN1ug@shelley.u.washington.edu>, Shams Hasa writes:
|> Dear Muslims,
|> 
|> I have recently gone through the Quran to settle the issue of meats ie. beef,
|> lamb, and chicken and any other non-haraam animal food, and have have found
|> on over eight occasions the message about the method of killing the animals in
|> question mentioned above.
|> 
|> On all times, the message says, do not eat of meats that are unclean and unwholesome,
      ^^^
It is a difficult task to go through the entire Qur'an
with full understanding and concentration. Perhaps you
might have missed something?

|> and do not eat of food that is killed in the name of any other diety then
|> Allah. 

In the same Qur'an (surah An`aam 6:118) it says:

  So eat of (meats) on which Allah's name has been pronounced
  if ye have faith in His Signs.

This says more than just food which has been killed in the name
of any other diety than Allah. As far as I know it is very rare that the
name of Allah is mentioned when animals are slaughtered in the US.

Also in the same Qur'an it says (Al-i-Imran 3:32 and many other places
in many different ways)

  Obey Allah and His Apostle

thus clearly indicating that even if you read the Qur'an cover to cover
many times over, you would not get the complete set of rules. Look for
how the prophet ate, and told us to eat.

Thus we are told by the prophet to pick up the foold that has
fallen to the ground and clean the dirt from it and eat it. Similarly
we are told to lick our fingers with which we eat rather than to wipe
the food off on handkerchiefs. No amount of argument about the
`hygenic standards' is going to abrogate the teachings of the Prophet
who best understood Allah's commands.

|> 
|> As far as I know from talking with FDA and Pakistanis who work with FDA in the
|> meat quality control areas, that no other name is invoked when the animals
|> such as chicken, beef, and lambs are slaughthered and they are slaughtered in
|> totally hygenic standards espcially much higher ones than what Pakistanis eat
|> every day in Pakistan, where no one questions the issue of proper Hallal etc
|> at all. 
|> 
    .....
|> 
|> Best Regards,
|> Shams Hasan.