Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
Subject: Re: Revolution
From: hippee@oread.cc.ukans.edu
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:07:38 CST
 <1992Dec11.160556.2287@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <1992Dec11.223045.1@oread.cc.ukans.edu> <101788@netnews.upenn.edu>
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Serces

In article <101788@netnews.upenn.edu>, ingraham@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (James Ingraham) writes:
 
> Actually, you should read Herbert Marcuse's _One-Dimensional Man_ for an 
> answer to this question.  

That sounds like a good idea.  However, I'm still working my way through Lenin.
Quite possibly that is where my rhetoric is coming from.
 
>>Justice has had a much longer and broader meaning than 
>>just the protection of property which has been created through social 
>>production and gives benefit to individuals.
>>
> 
> Certainly.  And it has a HELL of a lot more meaning than shooting people 
> because of their income brackets, too.
> 
Normally, in discussions, I'd agree with you.  But since we're discussing
overthrow of an entire system of belief, conventional morality applies, if at
all, very little.  One must start somewhere and the most logical place to 
start is with those who have obviously benefitted from the preceeding eras of
history.
>  
>>If nothing I'm saying means anything more, I still have
>>the right to say it.  It's free speech and it's the only tool which the
>>bourgeois cannot refuse to those who would remove its existence.
>>
> 
> No one questioned that.  You're free to say any stupid thing you want. 
> Doesn't bother me if you cost the 'Net hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars
> to make a bloody fool out of yourself.
>

What do you means cost the net $$?  Please explain. 
 
> 
> I'll tell you why not kill all the rich; you'll kill everyone.
> The first thing
> that's going to happen when you start killing rich people is that trains are
> going to stop moving, planes won't go off the ground, trucks won't get gas,
> cities won't get fed, the telecommunications net will fail, and everyone
> in a moderately large city will starve to death within two weeks. 

So because our system works poorly now (but it works) were all supposed to
stand up and cheer. Well hooray for us!  Now that that's over, let's try to
devise a system that works for us all not just for those who happen to own the
railroads, planes, gas companies, and telecomm nets.

> The only 
> people to survive will be the idiots who thought this whole damn thing up in 
> the first place, because THEY'LL figure out that they can base a society on
> death. 

I don't remember saying "let's base a society on killing each other".  I said
let's start somewhere even at the expense of some with Gucci bags!  Let us
remember that all the time we're dallying around real people are already dying. 
Where's all the so-called-justice for them?

> But let me tell you what woul
> REALLY solve this country's problems; kill everyone below the poverty line.
> You eliminate poverty, most crime, most drug abuse, prison overcrowding,
> most discontent with the system, and a lot of other problems.  THAT would make
> sense.

Already tried.  Besides (see above)

> Does it seem to anyone else here that maybe, just
> maybe, the problems aren't isolated to one group?  I mean, maybe there's not
> one person or group to blame?  Is it possible that we're all in this mess
> together, and have all done our fair share to contribute to it?

It would appear that those who are to blame are those who have the POWER and
RESOURCES to change the way that things are?  Hasn't it ever made you wonder
why anti-business politicians don't exist?  Get a clue!  It doesn't make any
sense to blame those who couldn't change anything.  It's nice sentiment to
believe that we're all in this together (It sounds so apple pie).  It doesn't
make sense, though, in a world where the only ones who are in it together are
the who are keeping themselves on top!
  
> Look at history; the Russian revolution, centered on overthrowing the rich
> ruling class, led to Lenin (tolerable but hardly a saint) and Stalin (the devil
> incarnate).  In France, the revolution led to a lot of needless death.  In
> America, the rich LED the revolution.  

Yes, let's look at history shall we?  Russia, semi-feudal country attempting to
instill communism.  Did it work? No.  Was there oppression?  Yes.  Does that
mean that this sort of oppression is necessary? no does your attempt to
undercut any other ideology but your own work? no Why?  because you refuse to
examine the truth of the world in which you live.  Your head is so cluttered
with have you've been brought up believing that you can't see anything else. 
Get out!  See what the real world is really like for someone who can't afford
college!  Grow up! 

> This country was founded by white,
> upper-class males.  With strong ideals, great ideas, and a HUGE amount of
> intelligence and knowledge. 

So let's have a parade.  Gee Whiz, Wally.
 Killing the only people who know how this world
> works isn't going to help right the wrongs in the world.

No but killing those who sponge off of it might certainly help.

> Killing won't
> solve anything.
> 
Neither will pretending that everything is hunky-dorey!

> -James
> University of Pennsylvania (That's right, I pay $25000 a year)
> ingraham@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
> 
> "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal..."
> 
Guess again, friend!
Hippee@oread.cc.ukans.edu