From: uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Coleman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Date: 24 Jul 1992 08:00:40 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

muffy%remarque.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

>In article <l6klejINNmu9@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> rberlin@birdland.Eng.Sun.COM (Rich Berlin) writes:

>>Again, it may be fair, but there is something morally suspect about
>>dividing up the world this way.  A need is a need and an injustice is
>>an injustice, and our duty to address it is neither heightened nor
>>lessened by the race or sex of the victim.

>Analogy time: I live in a two-bedroom apartment.  I have one bedroom,
>my roommate has the other, we share the living room and kitchen.  One
>morning, I notice the place is a real mess.  I only have an hour
>before I have to go to work.  My roommate's room would take an hour to
>clean (but two hours for me, because I don't know where everything
>goes), mine will take two hours, and the living room and kitchen will
>take two hours.  Ther eis simply *no way* that I can get the entire
>place clean.  Where do I concentrate my efforts?  Chances are very
>good that I will spend the time on the areas that I use and which I
>have therefore more contorl over and more interest in/understanding
>of.

	This analogy would work were we really living in separate worlds.
But we're not.  We're both living in the living room.  And it's a really
complex living room, and even though we've lived there all our lives, we
don't have things set up properly so that both of us can enjoy living there.
We both have things about this arrangement, but you've had friends coming over
for twenty years pointing out everything I do wrong, and how well I live; 
I'm only beginning to focus in on the fact that I'm unhappy.
	So you go about "fixing" things that you're pretty sure don't affect
me, and you do so without asking me.  And guess what?  You put a bunch of 
things in the worst possible place for me.  You don't realize that I have
a bad back, so you put some things that are really important for me on
the bottom shelves.
	I decide to straighten some things up, and not realizing that you've
got a fear of heights and don't want to stand on chairs, I put a lot of stuff
important to you up on the top shelf.  
	Every morning you "fix" the place, and every afternoonn I refix it,
and we never, never ask the other person why they keep moving things around.
Amazingly enough, neither of us will ever be happy living there.

	Now, if we just picked an evening, and sat down and talked about
some things, and planned out how the room should be to satisfy both of our
needs and desires as best as possible, why, we'd get it done in an evening
and be done with it.  Isn't this the "consensus" style that we're always
told women are so wonderful at?  How come you don't let men play?

>On the other hand, if I decide to spend the time in the living
>room/kitchen, I'm not going to clean around my roommate's stuff; I'm
>going to consider it and deal with it as well as I can.

	...And without asking me, you're certain to put it in the wrong
place, as well as moving things that have debatable ownership or importance.
I'm glad you're interested in helping, but we'd help each other a lot more
by working together.

>I do not believe that concentrating on issues that specifically affect
>women means that you must ignore the effect of those issues (or the
>possible solutions) on men.

	You haven't had a chance to reply to another posting of mine yet; 
I'll be interested in what you have to say to my point that there are no
issues that deal specifically to women.

>>It is equally absurd to work to change womens' rights and roles in
>>society without paying any attention to mens' intimately related
>>rights and roles.  Gender justice is as indivisible as any other
>>kind.

>That's odd, because it does not seem that gender *IN*justice is
>indivisible.

	Doesn't seem to who? Again, in another posting I try to point out 
that feminism has focussed on seeing the advantages of being men without 
noticing the disadvantages, and noting the disadvantages of being women 
without counting the blessings.  It can do that by not talking to men; if 
you never hear the other side, or consider them unimportant except as symbols 
of what you haven't got, then of *course* men are unjust monsters glomming 
onto all the good stuff.

	It reminds me of a conversation I had with a woman not too long ago,
one who at one time had shared with me her concern that she might not be
being promoted because she was a woman.

	This time, though, she was trying to decide whether she'd prefer to
go back to work or stay home with her new kid.  I asked her if her husband
shouldn't have similar choices (just as an enlightment game; I expected a
"Well, I guess so, but I doubt if he'd want to stay home" sort of answer).
Instead, she looked at me with a shocked expressions and said "Why, no!"
Stunned, I said, "Why not?"  Her reply: "Because he's the man!"
	For twenty years we've concentrated on the advantages of men without
noting the disadvantages.  There are heavy responsibilities that go along
with our roles, and the role of provider, with no choices, is no more fun
than the role of caretaker.  Here a woman has a choice that generations of
women before her haven't had, yet she's completely unaware of the
responsibility that goes with that power...and she's quite happy with the
situation.  She's very concerned that being a woman may inhibit her career,
but not at all concerned about her husband being prevented, by gender,
>from taking a more active role in raising children, or simply having the
same freedom of choice she has.
	Maybe it's time to start asking men if they're really as happy as
they should be, with all that wonderful power.  Maybe it's time to start asking
them why not, and listening.  Maybe it's time to start treating them like 
real human beings, with feelings very similar to the ones that women have, 
buried though they are.  

	Maybe it's time for a humanist movement.

Robert C.
-- 
----------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: My company has not yet seen fit to
	    elect me as spokesperson. Hmmpf.


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