From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Abortion vs. Adoption
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1992 17:02:55 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Sep1.095859.1655@sniap.mchp.sni.de>  frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de () writes:
> regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
> : In article <1992Aug31.122431.15398@sniap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S436.sniap.mch
> : >I don't accept that as abortion is ever over and done with
> : >as you suggest.
> :
> : Why not?
>
> Why not not?
>
> That is, why did the original poster assert her position.  And
> where were you then?

I'd hesitate to guess why Suzanne has asserted some of the bizarre
things she's said in the past.

> : >I'm saying that the knowledge of the child *you* might have
> : >raised, or might have had adopted, for that matter,  is with
> : >you for the rest of your life.
> :
> : So is the knowledge of the children you might have raised that you
> : decided never to conceive.
>
> Not really, Adrienne.

Why not?

Why is one statement any more valid than the other?

> By actually conceiving, I would imagine that you are suddenly
> in a world of shit, which is not generally the case when
> deciding not to conceive.

No, it's only after delivering that you have to deal with diapers.  :-)

> You are placed in the position of *having* to make the
> decision, PDQ.  You have a new option, which is having the
> child, then opting for adoption (which we are supposed
> to be discussing).

Why is that what we're supposed to be discussing?

> Plus, nobody is telling you that deciding not to conceive is immoral.

Certainly not as many people, anyway.

> Plenty of people are willing to tell you that about abortion,

Plenty of people are willing to tell me that about a lot of things
which are not immoral in my opinion.  They're entitled to their opinion,
and I'm entitled to mine.  I certainly don't feel guilty doing these
things because of *their* opinions.

> In the face of all this, only  an automaton would not have at least
> a nagging doubt about having an abortion.

Or someone who looked at the facts and made their own decision, with
which they're happy.

> : >In fact, all I'm saying is: abortion, for women who choose it,
> : >is a Big Deal.  They will be affected by it for no little time.
> : >I find *your* claim about "most people" reveals very little
> : >understanding of human nature.
> :
> : Upon what grounds do you make this claim?
>
> No studies. No reports. No evidence.  I can't uuencode
> a woman's conscience and upload it for you.  The whole
> thing stands or falls on what any honest woman tells
> you about an abortion she has had.

A number of women have reported that they have no regrets about
their abortion.  Does this mean that the argument falls, or are
you questioning their honesty?

> But any woman I have spoken to says the same thing: "no woman
> chooses abortion lightly".  I believe that.  I also believe
> that something that significant alters ones life.

Nobody chooses heart surgery lightly, either.  Do you believe that
they must therefore be suffering nagging doubt the rest of their life?
What if they had someone telling them that surgery was immoral and
that they should have let themself die if that was god's will?

> I also wonder, what if it (abortion) *is* wrong?   You
> know, suppose the z/e/f turned out to be a person all
> along.   Suppose (whisper it) YOU GOT IT WRONG!  AGAIN!

(AGAIN ???)

> Suppose that someone up there was mighty pissed off about
> all this pro-choicing.

Well, if there's someone up there mighty pissed off about it, you'd think
they'd damned well come down and tell us, right?

> If you believe in a conscience, and I believe your personal
> experience will demonstrate this, then if abortion is indeed
> (morally) wrong, then women who choose it will know it

And if it's not, they won't.

> : There have been studies performed on these issues, you know.  Do you know
> : what the bulk of these studies have found?
>
> I'm not really sure we're talking about the same issues, Adrienne.
> But you're quite correct.  I am completely ignorant of any and
> all studies concerning abortion, and would welcome a reference
> to some of them.

Posted yesterday.

> it's just that as I personally
> believe there are barely words to describe this,

That's because you personally believe that it's immoral.

> I don't see how
> it can be reduced to bar graphs, pie charts, and numbers.

It reduces to a yes/no or multiple choice question, actually.

> By the way, the original poster did not justify her "over and
> done with" claim with any perceptible knowledge base or learned
> studies.  Yet you did not deem it necessary to point that out.

Her claim was that it's *never* over and done with, and that can be
shown wrong with a single counter-example.  A number of women have
posted counter-examples.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)