From: bd@fluent@dartmouth.EDU (Brice Dowaliby)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Rage, ranting and race
Date: 15 Nov 92 15:21:47 GMT
Reply-To: bd%fluent@dartmouth.EDU
Distribution: usa
Organization: Fluent Inc., Lebanon NH

dem@engin.umich.edu (Darryle E Merlette) writes:

>In article <BD.92Nov12091027@fluent.UUCP>
>bd@fluent@dartmouth.EDU (Brice Dowaliby) writes:
>
>>Recent polls show that 70% of the people think the country is
>>on the wrong track.  That sounds like a fundamental
>>disagreemnt with the way the country is working.
>
>Yes, but I'd like to know what question(s) were asked to determine this.
>If people were asked flat out "Do you think this country is on the right
>track?" or something similar, then this result is no surprise. On the other
>hand, I don't think the conclusion would be the same if the question posed
>was, for example, "Do you approve of the use of redlining and gerrymandering
>to preserve your neighborhood?"

I'll certainly grant that the way the question was asked has a lot
to do with the way the question is answered.  My recollection is
that I was responding to your saying that the majority of whites approve
of the current systemic racism, and I just don't think that's true.  But
I think the majority of whites are as hard-pressed to find the solution
as the majority of blacks are.

By the way, the most eggregious examples of gerrymandering in the recent
redistricting (that I saw) was intended to increase the power of
the black vote, not the white vote.

>>Talking about "whites as a group" doesn't offend me, it just
>>makes me want to point out that it's as meaningless as talking 
>>about the feelings of "blacks as a grouip".  Easy to do, but
>>essentially meaningless.
>
>IMHO, it is not meaningless at all. "As a group" simply recognizes that
>what set theorists call cardinality has correspondence in the ideas,
>opinions, and actions of groups of people.

I guess we're going to disagree on this one.  The only consistency
I see in the "white" group is light skin color - whites are as divided
politically as blacks are, and the religious right is as far
removed from my way of thinking as Clarence Thomas' is from 
Jesse Jackson's.

>>I think it's a strategic error to talk about "racism" as one giant
>>monolithic thing.  I suggest it's more helpful to look at individual
>>results of "racsim" and attack them individually.
>
>It's been my experience that there is no such thing as an *isolated* case
>of racism (ie., acts of racism cannot be properly addressed and understood
>when lifted out of the context of society). Therefore, addressing individual
>cases is akin to doctors who treat each individual symptom instead of the
>whole disease.

A misunderstanding here.  I didn't mean that you had to look at
each "case" of racism as a separate issue, but rather each "type"
of racism.  Job descrimination needs a solution that is different
from the solution to lack of capital in the inner city.

>>The murder rate of ghetto youths is far too high, but it is not
>>helpful in seeking solutions to say that "racism" is the cause.
>>Lack of jobs and lack of hope is the reason.  Drugs are the
>>reason.  "Racism" might be used to describe the lack of interest
>>that lets this situation arise, but it does nothing to help alleviate
>>the situation:  in fact it turns people off by offending them or making
>>them defensive.
>
>It may sound harsh, but if people are offended by what may very well
>be the truth, then that's *their problem*. It's just unfortunate that
>*their problem* becomes *our problem* in a society where they have
>control. (Sorry for the "us" vs. "them" terminology, but its the best
>way to communicate this particular point). If Blacks had the same
>control over their own lives that whites have over their own lives
>(and Black lives) then and only then could it truly be said that racism
>doesn't matter.

This may be the crux of the difference in our thinking.  When you say
that if people are offended that's their problem, I say no, it's
*your* problem too, because offended people aren't going to do
what's neccesary to work towards a solution.

And despite the rhetoric, the help and good will of both
blacks and whites is essential to the eradication of racism, IMHO.

-- 
   Brice Dowaliby, Fluent Inc., 10 Cavendish Court, Lebanon, NH  03766
                         bd%fluent@dartmouth.edu        
             I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me
                              DoD # 0698