From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: 'PXP111' Is In A 'Greeks-Are-No-Damn-Good' Mood: Further Expose'.
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:48:55 GMT





<92231.023104PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu>
<PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu>  Andronikos Romanos

>Very amazingly and even more selectively HBM's and KELLY's Bible/Koran,
>ie Shaw (sic), misses some more ground in the case of Jews in Chios...

You are supposed to know about 'the Jews of Greece?' Are 'palikaryas' mental 
mutants?

Thanks so much, Nejat.

Source: "THE JEWS OF RHODES" by Marc D.Angel and forwarded by the
        Haham Rev.Dr.Solomon Gaon (New York 1978).

 page 17:

   <<  EXPULSION FROM RHODES

  During the first few years of the 16th century, the wave of Christian
  intolerance as seen in Spain and Portugal spread to Rhodes. The Grand
  Master, Pierre d'Aubusson, called for the expulsion of the Jews from
  the domains of the Knights of St. John. This decree probably surprised
  the Jews of Rhodes, as they had been treated fairly well by the Knights
  heretofore. The Grand Master now lodged a host of charges against the
  Jews of the city. He argued that they led scandalous lives and that
  their bad example had led others to sin. He told the Council of Rhodes
  that the Jews might cause many evils among the faithful Christians.
  The Council unanimously agreed that the Jews were to be expelled from
  the island and all territories of the Order within 50 days. They were
  given 40 days to sell their property. Furthermore, they were forbidden
  to settle in Turkey lest they serve as spies against the Knights.

  However, the edict stipulated that all Jews who accepted baptism could
  remain in Rhodes. It also stated that all Jewish children would be
  forcibly baptized, regardless of their parents' decisions. The Grand
  Master then proceeded to have Jewish children baptized and brought up
  at the public charge. Some Rhodian Jews converted under these pressures.
  Others who could leave Rhodes were put on a ship to Nice, France.
  A number were tortured and killed.>>

  page 18:

  <<In June 1522, Sultan Suleyman mobilized once again Ottoman forces
  against the Knights of Rhodes. According to the 16th-century Sephardic
  historian, Joseph Hacohen, the Turks had 400 ships and 200,000 soldiers
  as well as an enormous quantity of weapons. Exaggerated as these figures
  may be, the Turkish attack was undoubtedly a massive one.>>

  page 19:

 <<Elijah Capsali of Candia believed that the Turkish conquest of Rhodes
 was part of the messianic drama leading to redemption. To him, the Sultan
 seemed a messianic figure. In a poem written in honor of the Turkish
 victory, Capsali described the event as a marriage between Rhodes, the
 bride, and Suleyman, the groom. Of Suleyman he wrote: ''Your descendants
 shall inherit the cities of their enemies with joy and happiness. And your
 name in Israel will be known as Groom and Bride.''

 The Jews of Rhodes rejoiced in the Turkish victory and the Order's
 departure. They rushed to the synagogue and prayed there openly for the
 first time since d'Aubusson had decreed conversion or expulsion from
 the island. Capsali described the liberation as follows:

   On that day all the Turkish slaves in Rhodes were liberated, for the
   Sultan had so stipulated with the Rhodians that they not be killed.
   Also, many Jews were in Rhodes as slaves, and they escaped with God's
   mercy. Moreover, all the Jews who had been converted at the time of the
   expulsion from Rhodes---whether by force or from free will---all returned
   to their original faith. They opened the synagogue which the gentiles
   had closed...>>
                 ------------------------------------

  What is the moral here? I will finish with the conclusions reached
  by Professor Shaw (and many other scholars/historians some of which
  I will quote later if I have time):

  <<For the most part, then, Jews and Christians lived as prosperous
  minorities in the classical Islamic empires of the Umayyads of Damascus
  and Spain and the Abbasids of Baghdad, preserving their religions and
  freedoms within their own religiously-based communities and paying
  a special poll tax called harac or cizye in return for the protection
  of the Muslim rulers and exemption from military service while living
  with great comfort and prosperity. There were limitations, there were
  some marks of discrimination, so that one could say that Jews and
  Christians were not as equal as Muslims, but compared to the active
  persecution to which Jews were subjected in the Christian lands of
  Europe, the world of Islam was paradise for them [31].>>

[31] On the Jews in Islamic Spain in particular see Eliyahu Ashtor,
     The Jews of Moslem Spain (Philadelphia, 1973).

The above quote is from Prof. Shaw's paper 'Christian Anti-Semitism...'.

>Anyway, Mr Davidian  most  eloquently  discredited one of Mr Shaw's (or
>Mrs Shaw's?) books yesterday... Taking the risk of beating a dead horse

Omy. You are counting on a registered criminal and a pathological liar
to prove something for you. No wonder 'PXP111' is in such a mess.

What a joy...

From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar

Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Message-ID: <1154@urartu.SDPA.org>

>In article <1991Jan4.145955.4478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ahmet@eecg.toronto.
>edu (Ahmet Parlakbilek) asked a simple question:

>[AP] I am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu,coras or any other
>[AP] Turk was proven to lie.I can show tens of lies and fabrications of
>[AP] Davidian, like changing quote , even changing name of a book, Anna.

>The obvious ridiculous "Armenians murdered 3 million Moslems" is the most
>outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all. You are obviously new on this 
>net, so read the following sample -- not one, but three proven lies in one
>day!

>			- - - start yalanci.txt - - -

[some parts are deleted]

>In article <1990Aug5.142159.5773@cbnewsd.att.com> the usenet scribe for the 
>Turkish Historical Society, hbm@cbnewsd.att.com (hasan.b.mutlu), continues to
>revise the history of the Armenian people. Let's witness the operational
>definition of a revisionist yalanci (or liar, in Turkish):

>[Yalanci] According to Leo:[1]
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] "The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks
>[Yalanci] and on the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding
>[Yalanci] their own affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed,
>[Yalanci] the war was actually being waged between the Committee of 
>[Yalanci] Dashnaktsutiun and the Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and 
>[Yalanci] savage war in defense of party political interests. The Dashnaks 
>[Yalanci] incited revolts which relied on Russian bayonets for their success."
>[Yalanci] 
>[Yalanci] [1] L. Kuper, "Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century,"
>[Yalanci]     New York 1981, p. 157.

>This text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries. On
>page 157 we find a discussion of related atrocities (which is title of the
>chapter). The topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the Sub-
>Commission on Prevention of Discrimination of Minorities of the Commission on
>Human Rights of the United Nations with respect to the massacres in Cambodia.
>There is no mention of Turks nor Armenians as claimed above.

				- - -

>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

>The depth of foolishness the Turkish Historical Society engages in, while
>covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, is only surpassed by the 
>ridiculous "historical" material publicly displayed!

>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org>  | The life of a people is a sea, and  

Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found 
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:

> According to Leo:[1]

>"The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks and on
> the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding their own 
> affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed, the war was
> actually being waged between the Committee of Dashnaktsutiun and the
> Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and savage war in defense of party
> political interests. The Dashnaks incited revolts which relied on Russian
> bayonets for their success." 

>[1] B. A. Leo. "The Ideology of the Armenian Revolution in Turkey," vol II,
     ======================================================================
>    p. 157.
    ======

QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !

DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.

Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...

You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.

And for the following line:
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.

Ahmet PARLAKBILEK

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)


Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:9484 soc.culture.greek:8178