From: glevine@m-net.ann-arbor.mi.us (George Levine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Remzi-Kaya-Hakki
Date: 13 Dec 1992 11:20:13 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


 
 Asagida Remzi ve Hakkinin kaya'ya verdikleri cevaplari gayet ilginc buldum
 Ama Remzi ve hakki ya hatirlatirim. kaya  ve onun gibi insanlar bu tur
 tartismayi kaldira kadar genelde kapasiteli olmazlar. Oyle  degilse
 
 a. Kaya diger arkadaslarin sorduklai sorulara cevap vermen, daha hic bir soruyu cevaplamadin.
 
 b. Goster bakalm kendini birak su naneden isleri gel tartismaya Remzi ve
 hakkinin istedigi seviyede katilmaya.
 
 Kadir Yildiz
 
 not. Ben sorularin cogunu sormayan ve sana satir satir cevap vermeyen
 biri olarak cevaplarinizi halaaaaaaaaaaa bekliyoruzzzzzzzzzzz
#> 
#> 
#> Remzinin yazdiklari ve tartisma konulari
#>  #######################################################################
#> MERHABA
#> 
#> Dinin ideoljik rolu konusunda  fikir beyan eden Mr kaya, dinlerin
#> sosyal yapi icerisindeki islevi konusunu gundeme geitiriyor. Sosyal
#> yapi iceri sinde dine bicilen role gore degerlendirme yoluna giden
#> Mr KAya, determu- nisti dusunce yapisi icinde dinin  BELIRLEYICI
#> ROLUNU, beleilenen konumuna koyuyor.  Ust yapi alt yapi tartismasin
#> yeni bir boyut getirerek belirlenen konuma oturtulan Islamin
#> belirleyici hale gelmemesi icin tavsiye anlaminda bir  seylerde
#> bulunuyor.
#> 
#> Evet bilim yada bilim salatasi cercevesinde Islamin kendi
#> dinamiginden  kaynaklanan belirleyicik rolunden nasil belirlenen
#> rolune girdi. Boyle bir iddiada bulunurken, gecis doneminin nasil
#> oldugunuda, etki ve etki lesim kurallari cercevesinde
#> aciklmalisiniz.
#> 
#> Medem ki Islamin sosyolojik acidan degerlendirmeye gireceksiniz o
#> zman size bazi sorularim var.
#> 
#> 1.Ortami belirlemede rol oynayan Islami kurallar, bunlein sistem
#> baglantilari icinde causality kurallari disinda aciklanmasi
#> 
#> 2.Kaosa dayali butunluk yerine, rollerin tanimlanmasi yoluyla
#> butunluk sagalamaya yonelen  duunce yapisinin Islam la
#> karsilastirilmasi
#> 
#> 3.Pozitivist bili anlayisiyla celisen Islam i kurallar ve sistem
#> teorisi ile Islam arasindaki iliski
#> 
#> 4. Post modernist bilim analayisiyla, Islami dusunce arasindaki
#> iliski
#> 
#> Bu konularada deginirseniz, hep beraber karsilikli tartisma ortami
#> bulabiliriz kaya bey
#> 
#> Remzi Cirit
#> 
#> NOT: LUTFEN  birbirimize kufur etmeden tartisalim.
#> 
#> 
 Hakki beyin yazdiklari
 
Hakki bey, Kaya bunlari kaldiracak kapasiteye sahip mi dersiniz
#> ----------------------------------------------------------------
#> 
#> Bu da size Allah'in "din"'inden ornekler:
#> 
#> ----------------------------------------------------------------
#> Here is a summary of use of DIN in the Quran, a grammatical map:
#> 
#> Allah (chosen/ordained) for you the DIN
#> Allah (establish) for them their DIN
#> Allh said: I perfected DIN
#>            I have chosen for you al-Islam as DIN
#> Allah send messenger with the DIN of truth that may cause it to
#> prevail over DIN
#> Allah said: people of scripture ! stress not in your DIN other than
#> the truth
#> would you teach Allah your DIN ?
#> the DIN (for/with/of) Allah
#> the DIN of truth
#> pure DIN is for Allah
#> making (their/my) DIN pure for Allah
#> keeping DIN pure for Allah
#> on the day of DIN the command is Allah's
#> establish the DIN
#> pharaoh said: Moses will alter your DIN
#> according to king's DIN
#> someone (follows/follows-your/slanders/may-seek-help-in-the-matter-
#> of/set-purpose-for-the-right/denies/becomes-a-renegate-from-
#> someone's) DIN
#> give the lie to someone about the DIN
#> (no-compulsio/no-hardship/to-gain-sound-knowledge/brothers/who-is-
#> better) in DIN
#> the day of DIN
#> have they partners made lawful for them in their DIN that which
#> Allah allowed not
#> DIN will happen
#> to war against someone on account of DIN
#> (they-are-in-dispair-of/they-will-fight-till-they-made-you-
#> renegates-from/they-assail) your DIN
#> people of scripture (exaggerate-in-their-DIN/and-disbelievers-make-
#> a-jest-and-sport-of-your-DIN)
#> they take their DIN for pastime and jest
#> (they-split-up/they-sunder) their DIN and become schimatics
#> their DIN had (deluded/beguiled) them
#> their partners make their DIN obscure for them
#> it deceived them regarding their DIN
#> if you are in doubt of my DIN
#> 
#> List of ayats where "DIN" occurs:
#> 
#> 009.029, 001.003, 002.132, 002.193, 002.256, 003.019, 003.083,
#> 004.046, 007.029, 008.039, 008.072, 009.011, 009.033, 009.036,
#> 009.122, 010.023, 010.105, 012.040, 012.076, 015.035, 016.052,
#> 022.078, 024.002, 026.082, 029.082, 029.065, 030.030, 030.043,
#> 031.032, 033.005, 037.020, 038.079, 039.002, 039.003, 039.011,
#> 040.014, 040.065, 042.013, 042.013, 042.021, 048.028, 051.006,
#> 051.012, 056.056, 060.008, 060.009, 061.009, 070.026, 074.046,
#> 082.009, 082.015, 082.017, 082.018, 082.019, 083.011, 095.077,
#> 098.005, 107.001, 109.006, 110.002, 003.085, 004.125, 005.003,
#> 002.217, 003.073, 004.171, 005.057, 005.077, 009.012, 040.026,
#> 049.016, 005.054, 003.024, 004.146, 006.070, 006.138, 006.160,
#> 007.051, 008.049, 024.025, 024.055, 030.032, 010.105, 039.014
#> 
#> See how "DIN" is hooked up to "MILLET" :
#> 
#> 004.125 who is better in DIN than one who surrendered ones' purpose
#> to Allah while doing good and follows the MILLET of Abraham, the
#> upright, Allah chose Abraham for friend.
#> (ahsenu=better, esleme=surrendered, veche=pupose, muhsin=good,
#> TEBEA=follow, MILLET, Abraham, hanif=upright, halilen=friend)
#> 
#> 002.120 and the jews will not be pleased with you, nor the
#> christians, till you follow their MILLET. Say: guidance of Allah is
#> guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the
#> knowledge which had come unto you, then would you have from Allah
#> no protecting friend nor helper.
#> (jews, christians, TEBEA=follow, ILM=knowledge, veliy=friend(?),
#> HEDA=guidance, HEVA=desires)
#> 
#> 022.078 ..he had chosen you and had not laid upon you in DIN any
#> hardship; the MILLET of your father Abraham. He had named you
#> muslims of old time and in this (scripture)...
#> (dini-min-haracin=din-with-no-hardship, millet, Abraham, muslimin)
#> 
#> 006.162 say: as for me, my Lord had guided me unto a straight path,
#> a right DIN, the MILLET of Abraham, the upright, who was no
#> idolater....
#> (hedani=guided, sratin-mustakim=straight-path, dinen-kiyemen=right-
#> din, hanif=upright, mushrikin=idolater)
#> ------------------------------------------------------------------
#> 
#> I think there is enough examples here in the Quran which gives you
#> a solid over-view how you can use this word "DIN" without ending up
#> in the maze of metaphysicians' "DIN" ?!(like Kaya's "din")
#> 
#> Keep this as a record so that we know where we are when you use
#> this word "DIN" and someone else use it. Our aim is to have a clear
#> functional language so that we can communicate and use INTELLECT
#> (AKL).
#> 
#> How can you ACCESS TO INTELLECT without a sound LANGUAGE ?
#> 
#> Simdi size bir soru:
#> "Kaya'nin "din"'i sizin paranizla kac para eder?"
#> Tutun Kaya'nin "din"'ini Allah'in "din"'ine bir vurun,
#> mihenk tasi gibi, onun size kac para ettigini soylesin...
#> 
#> Bu da size Kitap'in ayirici olma ozelligini gosterir..
#> 
#> Ayrica, Kaya'nin "din"'iyle ilgili her onerisini, size
#> daha once sundugum 180-kusur sorumla sorguya cekerseniz,
#> Kaya'nin "din"'inin ne ise yaradigini/yaramadigini hemen
#> saptarsiniz...
#> Bana burada 180-kusur X 7 soru sordurmayin lutfen :->
haklisinzi hakki bey