HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kevin@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Kevin Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 12:05:34 CST
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB

brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:

> In article <qgRsPB3w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> kevin@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Kevi
>  
> >That's fairly blunt. It's certainly true that it's questionable whether a 
> >lot of what he did could be termed "music" at all, but to his credit he 
> >did write some very interesting stuff. The place I lose him is where one 
> >piece of music can sound totally different when interpreted by several 
> >people. In my mind, the point where the last bit of order is gone is 
> >where is stops being music and starts becoming "performance art".
> 

> "Performance Art"?  What makes you think it's art at all?

Because it tries to appeal to emotion at some level. What would you term 
it, if not "art"?
> 
> >However in the original message, I agree completely. Stuffy academics who 
> >look down their noses at Cage and self-righteously say to one another "I 
> >suppose he's INTERESTING..." while rolling their eyes in contempt, DO 
> >need a good amount of Cage rammed down their throats. 
> 
> If you noticed, it is the "stuffy academics" who are ramming this stuff
> down our throats (such a the ones who made me listen to it when I was
> in school, and Mr. Lustig who is (presumably) an academic musicologist.
> Look around this news group.  The way to rile up the academics is not by
> praising people like Cage, but by pointing out that what he did was neither 
> music nor art.
>  
I don't know how Cage was taught to you, but I was taught that he was a 
complete lunatic. I'd consider my history teacher probably one of the 
stodgiest musical academics, too. He wasn't treated like a composer. He 
was discussed like he was a raving madman, and heaven help me if I were 
to say anything positive about Cage. Wouldn't you agree that my teacher 
missed the boat? I don't think she was alone, either.

> >Say what you like about Cage...at least he's never boring. Wish I could 
> >say the same for Mozart.
>  
> Are you telling me that sitting in silence for 4'33" is something other 
> than boring?  I can't imagine anything less exciting.
> 
> --Brian 
> 

The silence itself is boring. The theory is what's controversial. 4'33 
caused its share of outrage...the rioting was probably pretty "exciting",
wouldn't you say?
 
KS

;--- (Kevin Scott) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
;E-mail: kevin@sys6626.bison.mb.ca
;system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: lancer@wpi.WPI.EDU (Stephe Lewis Foskett)
Subject: Nigel Kennedy
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 15:52:46 GMT


I'm sure this has been discussed to death here already, but...

I just got Nigel Kennedy's Four Seasons and Tchaikovsky & Sibellius Violin
Concertos, and they are absolutely brilliant.  Can anyone tell me more
about him or his recordings?  Particularly, how good are his other
releases?  I hear he has a jazz CD, too...

Thanks,
.s.
--
- so spake lancer@wpi.wpi.edu -         - Horses are fine, so are books -
-Official culture still strives to force the new media to do the work of-
-the old media; but the horseless carriage did not do the work of the   -
-horse, it abolished the horse and did what the horse could never do.   -
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cbettis@unlinfo.unl.edu (clifford bettis)
Subject: Suzuki Violin & Classical Guitar
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:28:02 GMT


My news reader ate my previous attempt at this post, let me try again.
I have two children who are learning to play the violin using the 
Suzuki method. I am a classical guitarist and I enjoy accompanying 
them on my guitar. Although Suzuki does have a book of accompaniments 
for guitar, it only cantains a selection of 21 accompaniments of 
pieces from the first 3 violin books. I have been writing parts for 
myself to fill in the gaps, but my children are moving ahead faster 
than I can make up new accompaniments (I start off by rearranging 
the piano accompaniments as a first effort). So I was wondering if 
anyone out there has the same problem and could we swap arrangements? 
I would be willing to share what I have written.
Cliff Bettis
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Winterreise
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:14:12 GMT

In article <Btn9o6.I8s@news.udel.edu> 
conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes, ineptly:

[Conrad L. Osborne...]
>proposed a cabaret-style performance with lighting, in which the
>performer is allowed to "act" and the audience is prevented from
>distraction by "following" it with texts or scores).

Sorry.  This seems to say the opposite of what I meant.  I should have
said something like "...the audience is not allowed to distract itself
(by "following" with texts or scores) from the performance."

In other words, reading will *not* be allowed.

I agree with this idea, by the way.  How often I've cut myself off from
really participating in a spellbinding performance by dutifully
following along my printed text, and in the process missing what was
really going on.

Jon Alan Conrad
From: pmy@vivaldi.acc.virginia.edu (Pete Yadlowsky)
Subject: Re: Enough about Cage, what about Partch?
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:03:23 GMT

Bradford Kellogg writes

>He doesn't prepare existing instruments,

In some cases he does. The 'chromelodeon', for example, is a modified
pump organ that serves as the tuning reference for the rest of his
orchestra. He also modified, as I recall, a guitar and a viola. 

>he designs and constructs his own. Then he composes music for them,

Actually, he spends most of his time nowadays DEcomposing.

>It's really quite remarkable. 

Yep. Hay, anyone seen 'Delusion of the Fury' on CD?

--
Peter M. Yadlowsky              |  Wake! The sky is light!
Academic Computing Center       | Let us to the Net again...
University of Virginia          |    Companion keyboard.
pmy@Virginia.EDU                |                      - after Basho
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: erwin@helsinki.ks.uiuc.edu (Edgar Erwin)
Subject: William Bolcom's  _McTeague_
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:30:44 GMT


Anyone have any info on Willam Bolcom's opera _McTeague_ which will be  
premiered in Chicago in October? (Lyric opera, I think)

Anyone know the story, or the source of the text?  Is this his first opera?

Is it possible to get single tickets, or do you need to have season tickets?

The only thing I know of Bolcom is the new CD with the Fifth Symphony and the  
Violin Concerto - both of which are quite enjoyable - played by Denis Russel  
Davies and the American Composers Orch.

Ed erwin@lisboa.ks.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 03:44:53 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.162250.15149@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> gadfly@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (Gadfly) writes:

>Now, about the "crimes" of this "evil" Cardew person.  My God, man,
>he merely championed Mao's philosophy--he never killed anyone!

Well, I don't think Hitler ever actually killed anyone personally either,
but don't you think that he and his supporters were responsible for the
bloodshed every bit as much as the guys who pulled the triggers and ran the
gas chambers?

>If you, say, supported George Bush 4 years ago, or today, or even
>voted for him, does that make *you* responsible for, oh, the 100,000+
>Iraqi civilians killed by the bombs or starved to death in the
>continuing aftermath of his sycophantic support of the Saudis?

ince when is it "sycophantic" to defend an ally against aggression from 
a neighbor?

Don't you think that there is a difference between STARTING a war and 
responding to an attack?  

If an aggrressor hides his weapons beside orphanages and old age homes,
would you say that it would be immoral to respond to attacks?  Of course,
you might deny that Iraq was an aggressor or that they placed their weapons
intentionally in places that would endanger civilians, but you wouldn't deny
that if he in fact did these things that there is no moral problem with
those collateral deaths, would you?

I am also curious where you got that 100,000+ statistic.  I had heard 
something like that as the number of total Iraqui deaths including 
soldiers.  Where did it come from?

Lastly, the ideology which Bush professes (which I don't happen to believe he
actuall subscribes to) cannot be made to justify mass killings for no good 
reasons, Maoism on the other hand is quite consistent with such actions.

--Brian

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: Rudy.Zalesak@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Rudy Zalesak)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead; Cardew
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 03:19:42 GMT

Steve Apter has several times claimed that Cardew would "presumably"
have advocated some evil activity or another, but seems unable to
actually produce any quote from Cardew that is relevant.

How about dispensing with the "Presumablys" since you obviously
don't know what Cardew had in mind. Do you have evidence that he 
wanted anything more sinister than state support for folk music
ensembles when he calls for "People's Music"?

I admit that in a different context (say, a quote from someone actually
in power, an old-time Soviet culture minister or William Bennett)
the words you quote could be sinister. But you haven't
quoted anything from Cardew that suggests he favored coercion,
justified Mao's abuses, or anything of the sort. 

de Man's case has been debated endlessly in other forums. I have never
seen a convincing case made that his later critical writings
owe anything to his early anti-Semitic editorials. You surely
disagree, I hope based on more than the redundant observation that
they issued from the same hand.

	-- Rudy Zalesak
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber)
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 22:14:52 GMT

In article <17e8vbINNmc6@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes) writes:
>
>This topic has made me think of a naive question.  If there are B-flat and
>A clarinets, I assume this means the lowest note the A clarinet can play
>is just one half-step below the lowest note of the B-flat clarinet.
>Why is it worth the trouble to make separate instruments that are so
>close together - or in other words couldn't an A clarinet play all the
>music that is written for the B-flat clarinet?  I would think it would
>only be worthwhile to make instruments that are more different, like the
>E-flat above B-flat clarinet and the E-flat alto clarinet.
>
Well, let me try to explain.  This is musical mechanics ... it has to 
do with the effort on us poor human beings to actually manage that
blackwood-and-german-silver machine.

Take a piece whose key signature has no sharps or flats, as written
for A clarinet.  This means that when I play it on A clarinet, I have
a (comparatively) easy time of it.  If I transpose it to play on Bb
clarinet, I end up with a key signature full of flats ... lots of them.
[Actually, it may be full of sharps ... I forget which ... I'm a humble 
folk musician these days, and I don't do this kind of stuff.]
As a result, the damn thing has become much harder to play.

The point is that on wood winds, different keys can be _very_ different 
in terms of the effort it takes to play in that key, because of the 
way the machine is set up.  Piano: relatively little such problem.

The minor effects: if the composer used the lowest note on the 
instrument (written low E) on the A clarinet, then I can't play it
on Bb clarinet at all.  Similar stuff.

And as various people have already said: different instruments have 
different tone colors.

>
>I remember someone once had a C saxophone, and I was told the rationale
>for its existence was not the need for an instrument in between the
>alto and tenor saxes, but rather than it could play parts written for
>piano without transposing.
>-- 

That's one use for C instruments.
As I said, I love my C clarinet 'cause it's light and it wails.
I don't play parts WRITTEN for anything much, these days.

Dave Golber

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: CD shops in London/Paris
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:00:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.071144.21849@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> MATGBB@LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU (BYRNES,Graham) writes:
>Hi there.
>In two days I'm heading to Belgium for a conference. En route, I'd like
>to do some browsing on fields more exotic than those imported to Australia.
>I have 12 hrs in London on Sunday, during which I have to get from Heathrow
>to Gatwick. The following Saturday I have free in Paris.
>  Any suggestions for CD shops to be visited in these two cities?
>Thanks,
>Graham Byrnes
>PS I know Paris pretty well, London much less, so a hint on location would
>be appreciated.. Thanks again.

If you're in London then do not miss Gramex at 84 Lower Marsh (near
Waterloo station). Open Tuesdays-Saturdays 12:30 to 6:00 p.m. They
sell second-hand classical *everything* from cylinders to CDs. The
owner, Roger Hewland, is a genuine eccentric: the man *only* likes
opera, and he dislikes Mozart and Wagner. But he'll sell anything. The
place is always full of knowledgeable people, only too willing to put
you straight on which recordings to buy. Be warned, though, he doesn;t
take credit cards.

My favourite record store in the world. It's a good job I live 5000
miles away or I'd spend much more there than I do.

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana and transposition
Reply-To: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:23:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.090210.19264W@saruman.sssab.se>, henwe@sssab.se (Henric Weyde) writes:
>In article <CB.92Aug26153129@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>
>>Dave Golber writes:
>>
>>   Stravinsky's _The History of a Soldier_ ...
>>
>>Beware the misleading cognate.  The standard translation of the title
>>"L'Histoire du Soldat" is "The Soldier's Tale" and that's correct.  "Le
>>Conte du Soldat" might have prevented confusion, though with perhaps the
>>wrong shading.  Also, I've heard "Pavane pour une Infante Defeunte"
>>translated as "Pavane for a Dead Infant", though fortunately it has
>>become known, correctly, as Pavane for a Dead Princess.
>>
>Curiosity information: "Infante" is the official title of a royal
>Spanish princess. By the way "Elephant and Castle" the roundabout south 
>of the Thames in London actually comes from "L'Infante de Castille".

*FLAME!!!* (what I've always heard) is that the Elephant and Castle district of
south London is named after a pub (bar). E&C is a traditional British pub name,
referring to the howdah (sp) or "castle" carried on elephants taking the Brit
imperialists on tiger hunts in India and suchlike... Another London district
is called "Bricklayers Arms" for the same reason.

Bill

>
>/Best regards Henric Weyde
>
>henwe@sssab.se, Scandinavian System Support AB, Linkoeping, Sweden  
>
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: so-so opera / great recording?
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:42:05 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <BtnHHq.Iyn@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>One topic that has come up from time in chat with friends are the
>"fringe" operas -- the ones nobody thinks of as great (e.g., not
>Pfitzner's Palestrina, which has a devoted German following), the ones
>that are pleasant entertainment in a good production -- which are a
>special treat on records because their one recording (or let's say one
>among their few recordings) was oustandingly good.  It's hard to 
>define the kind of thing I'm talking about, so let me give a couple 
>of examples.
>

I don't think this exactly fits your definition, but I want to 
mention it anyway, so here goes.  

I've only seen (or heard) one recording of Dvorak's "Rusalka".
(I don't if any others are available.)  It has the Czech Philharmonic
and Prague Chorus.  The conductor is Neumann and all the singers have
names that overload my meager Quayle-like spelling abilities.  I think
the recording is great, but I doubt if it pops up as on the "great"
operas (although I suspect in Czechoslavia it's real popular). 

The story is kind of a Bohemian version of "The Little Mermaid".
The music is charming and the performances are beautiful, so I nominate
this as a "fringe" opera recording worth finding.  (And I can definitely
say it's a fringe opera in So. California, because I've never seen where
anyone performed it.)


John D.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Subject: Re: Manners, children please...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 21:55:27 GMT

I think we're getting way off the music-of-any-kind track with this.
I don't think it's so important to humanity if we love or hate someone,
I don't think it's so important to humanity if we are glad someone is
dead or alive, or composing or not.  I don't think it is important to
humanity if we're rude or if we have nice manners, if god exists or does 
not. 

All that really matters is classical music, its performance, appreciation, 
discussion, and enjoyment.  Everything else is accompanyment.

Manners and discussions about etiquette, the proper way to grieve, who to
respect, and who is stupid do not fit into this category and must stop.

Ron |^|
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jacob@max.cc.brandeis.edu ( )
Subject: "Mozart" on creation (was Re: Bach and religious feelings)
Organization: Brandeis University Math Department
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 07:48:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug30.181012.26053@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> tomanix@sintra.xip.dec.com (Antonio Rodrigues) writes:

> "Once I have my theme, another melody comes, linking itself with first one,
>in accordance with the needs of the composition as a whole: the counterpoint,
>the part of each instrument and all the melodic fragments at last produce the
>complete work. Then my soul is on fire with inspiration. The work grows; I keep
>expanding it, conceiving it more and more clearly until *I have the entire 
>composition finished in my head though it may be long*. Then my mind seizes it
>as a glance of my eye a beautiful picture or a handsome youth. It does not come
>to me successively, with various parts worked out in detail, as they will later
>on, *but in its entirety that my imagination lets me hear it.*"
>
>Mozart, (in "The psychology of invention in the mathematical field.",Hadamard,
>J. Princeton University Press.) 

I believe Hadamard is quoting here what is today a known hoax.
As far as I know, it is accepted today that Mozart never
wrote that letter (see the Introduction to the "Letters of
Mozart and his Family", edited by Emily Anderson, I forget
the publisher of the original 2-vol. edition but there's a
1-vol new printing from W. W. Norton, 1985)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@bessel.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Enough about Cage, what about Partch?
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:23:03 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <will.714929620@ogre> will@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (William Sadler) writes:
>
>For those who find his [Partch's] music un-inspired take a listen to 
>_American Highball_ or _Barstow_ or _When Petals Fell in Petaluma_.  

Allow me to nit-pick.  The title of the last piece is more poetic:

	"And on the seventh day petals fell in Petaluma"

Doesn't it sound better?

>I tend
>to find that these works are more accessible than _Delusion of the Fury_ 

I find "Delusion of the Fury" just as accessible as his other works.

It's probably redundant to add that I find his music quite _inspired_,
but I'll say it anyway.  I think he's greatly under-estimated; at least,
he is under-performed and under-recorded.

Actually, when I moved from Europe to this country, I was _very_
surprised that Partch was not even mentioned in many music history books
published in the US.  I heard more of his music and more about him back
in Europe than in this country.  Only when I lived in San Diego I had a
chance (a few chances, actually) to see his instrument collection and to
hear and see his pieces performed live.  ('see': I saw a performance of
a ballet by Partch - I think it was "Daphne of the Dunes".)

-Margaret
From: haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana
Date: 26 Aug 1992 01:03:49 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: hobbes.ucsc.edu


In article <1992Aug25.225722.21384@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz> comjohn@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Mr. John T Jensen) writes:
>dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber) writes:
>
>>Take a piece whose key signature has no sharps or flats, as written
>>for A clarinet.  This means that when I play it on A clarinet, I have
>>a (comparatively) easy time of it.  If I transpose it to play on Bb
>>clarinet, I end up with a key signature full of flats ... lots of them.
>>[Actually, it may be full of sharps ... I forget which ... I'm a humble 
>>folk musician these days, and I don't do this kind of stuff.]
>>As a result, the damn thing has become much harder to play.
>
>I dunno, this just sounds like saying what the prevous writer suggested:
>that clarinets in keys a semitone or tone apart are to avoid the effort of
>transposition, which we horn players have to do all the time.  Seems fairly
>extreme to have to own two expensive instruments in order to avoid adding
>five sharps (B-flat to A).  We horn players have to transpose all sorts of
>rot.
I think dgolber has a plausible explanation, which I hadn't thought of.
What you're trying to avoid is not the transposition of the printed
music; rather it is that the instrument is harder to play when there
are lots of sharps and flats.  Maybe this doesn't apply to the horn,
where you just have three valves anyway.  As a former high school
clarinet blower myself I can testify that the sharps and flats tend
to have more awkward fingerings than the naturals.  To get from C
natural to D natural you move only one finger; to get from C# to D#
you have to move three fingers.
-- 
haynes@cats.ucsc.edu
haynes@cats.bitnet

"Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an Art."
        Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical