HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: msanseve@sol.UVic.CA (Mary Sanseverino)
Subject: Computers in the Classroom - are they out there?
Summary: Are there really a large number of compting classrooms available?
Keywords: Computers classrooms education
Organization: University of Victoria
Date: 29 Jul 92 19:19:36 GMT

I have a question: are there really enough computing classrooms available
in the institutes of higher learning around the world?  I ask this because
I get the feeling that, other than in the very technically based classes 
like comp. sci., engineering, and some stats classes, computers are not 
really used as a teaching and learning tool.  Given that multi-media
(okay, I used a "buzzword", but educators do seem to be talking about it :-) )
looks to be making a big break into the humanities, especially in second 
language acquisition, I wonder if schools have the hardware to move into 
this area.  Certainly multi-media, to be effective, does not need to be 
driven by a computer, but ... it sure looks like it helps!      
 
I wonder if any interested people out there might care to comment?  Also,
I would like to know what the computing capability of various schools might
be with regard to Computer Assisted Instruction (CAI), multi-media, or 
other non-traditional uses of computer technology.  

                             
Regards            

Mary Sanseverino


Computer Assisted Language Learning Facility
University of Victoria
Victoria, B.C. 
 
LLABCON1@UVVM.UVIC.CA


Newsgroups: comp.edu
From: waltp@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (waltp)
Subject: Re: Colleges Need to Fix the Bugs in Computer-Science Courses
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 23:56:42 GMT

In article <5349@naucse.cse.nau.edu> kwc@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Ken Collier) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.145301.27057@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu> waltp@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (waltp) writes:
>>In engineering, there is a separation between engineering degrees
>
>While you may have a convincing argument  for  playing  down  the
>theoretical  education  that  CS  majors  get and emphasizing the
>practical, we have observed some serious problems with  this  ap-
>proach.   I am in the computer science department at Northern Ar-
>izona University which is housed in the  College  of  Engineering
>and  Technology.   Except  for  CS  all  of the other engineering
>departments in our college (EE,ME,CE) have had tech  alternatives
>for  the  past 15 years or so.  Feedback from alumni have told us
>that people with tech degrees  have  greater  difficulty  getting
>jobs and  command lower salaries with far fewer opportunities for
>advancement.  As a result of this, the tech enrollments have been
>on a steady decline until this past Spring when the tech programs
>were finally given a proper burial.   So,  my  position  is  that
>although,  "...there  is a separation between engineering degrees
>and engineering technology degrees."  This is not a very good ap-
>proach  to  engineering (or computer science) education.  If stu-
>dents are well grounded in the theoretical underpinnings of  com-
>puter science the rest is a cakewalk (e.g., learning systems pro-
>gramming, database management, etc.)

Our program is also housed in an engineering school and we have
also recently buried our engineering technology degrees - probably
for other reasons than the ones at your school.

There are two issues that motivated my comment.

One is the future of a CS major employed doing largely "applications"
work (in whatever - business programming, aircraft engineering..).
It's always seemed that there is greater opportunity for advancement
in such a company if the individual is equipped to understand the
business as well as the programming.  By advancement, I mean the
traditional management route.

The other is underemployment.  I beleive that a lot of CS majors
become "coders" (maybe this is related to the above?) because the
jobs that they find don't give them an opportunity to make
use of what they do learn in a CS program.  But, since there
are so many CS majors, companies can demand a CS degree.
Perhaps a "less prestigious" major would provide a self selection
route.  People who don't want to learn CS theory (you must have them in
your classes too) can get a different degree and be happily employed
by the companies that don't have a real use for CS majors.

 
Walt


-- 
--- Walter G. Piotrowski        waltp@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu
--- Computer Science Department - Binghamton University 
--- Binghamton, NY 13902-6000     (607) 777-4368
--- Ham Packet: wb1ere@w2rgi.ny.usa.na    Ham TCP/IP: 44.69.0.41
From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Colleges Need to Fix the Bugs in Computer-Science Courses
Date: 29 Jul 1992 10:55:49 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu

Reg Foulkes writes (>):
>Ken Collier writes (>>):
>>waltp@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (waltp) writes (>>>):

>>>In engineering, there is a separation between engineering degrees
>>>and engineering technology degrees.  I think we need the same
>>>distinction in computer science.

>>Feedback from alumni have told us
>>that people with tech degrees  have  greater  difficulty  getting
>>jobs and  command lower salaries with far fewer opportunities for
>>advancement.

> Most employers don't really know what they need.

I am not convinced that students are well served by any undergraduate
engineering degree, including the CS degree.  I think undergraduates
should have a liberal education.  That means they should major in
something real, like maybe math or physics, and should take plenty of
literature and writing and history and philosophy and psychology on
the side.  And on top of that, let them take a pre-engineering program
similar in spirit to pre-med or pre-law.

(Since I teach undergraduate computer science for a living, this proposal
is against my own interests.  So you may think I'm crazy, but at least
I'm disinterested!)

We offer academic credit to students who serve as lab assistants, teaching
newer students how to use the equipment and do the homework.  I find that
our students in the engineering school ask NOT to get the credit, because
they're only allowed so many credits before graduation, and those are
all taken up by required engineering courses.  Something must be wrong there.
Organization: K.U.Leuven - Academic Computing Center
Date: Friday, 24 Jul 1992 14:54:37 +02
From: Peter Arien <LAAAA43@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be>
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: wanted : journal info

I made a list of journals that should have to do something with
the use of computers in education and training. The following
of those journals are not available (yet) at our university.
I would like to get more info on the contents of these journals.

_Academic Computing_
_Canadian Journal of Educational Communication_
_Intelligent Tutoring Media_
_International Journal of Computers in Adult Education and Training_
_Journal of Computer Based Instruction_
_Journal of Computing in Childhood Education_
_Journal of Computing in Higher Education_
_Journal of Educational Multimedia and Hypermedia_
_Journal of Technology and Teacher Education_

If you want the complete list (32 titles + issn), just let me know and
I'll email it.

Thanks.

Peter.

============================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ==
= Peter Arien                  =   LAAAA43@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be          =
= Academic Computing Center    =   LAAAA43@cc5.kuleuven.ac.be          =
= K.U.Leuven - Belgium         =   LAAAA43@blekul11.bitnet             =
= 'It was clear as mud, ... '  =   peter%psl%cc3@cc3.kuleuven.ac.be    =
============================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ==
Newsgroups: comp.edu
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Colleges Need to Fix the Bugs in Computer-Science Courses
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 09:58:19 GMT

In article <2388.2a708d66@vger.nsu.edu>, g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu (George C. Harrison, Norfolk State University) writes:

|> The author argues that current computer science education is too theoretical -
|> if it is indeed designed to train programmers for the most part.  He argues
|> that most programmers need only look up algorithms in established references
|> (ie Knuth), etc.  My initial impression was quite negative even though my
|> primary duties in my department are to teach the CS1, CS2, Ada Programming, and
|> Software Engineering course.

I think he is just seperating software engineering from computer science as
electronics engineering is seperated from electrical engineering.

I disagree, however, with placing the fault on schools when it should be placed
on companies. The depth of a bachelors degree major is deeper than what would
be provided by a software engineering sans theory major. It belongs with most
electronics engineering degrees at the associate level. A Bachelors degree is
simply not necessary for your most basic programmer. Alas there seems to be
an attitude (in all fields) that a BS is necessary to do anything.

I also object to a deemphasis of theory (or the creation of a seperate major
without it) because it seems like software engineering is becoming more and
more abstract. I believe that with greater levels of abstraction comes a
greater need for the understanding of theory. (I also believe that some people
will argue that more intelligent methods of abstraction will obviate the need
for ANY understanding of what is actually going on, but if this ever becomes
the case, then a high school degree and a couple of months of training should
become sufficient with out any need for college.)

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: comp.edu
From: zachary%denali.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Joe Zachary)
Subject: Introductory Language Tutorials
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:29:16 MDT
Organization: University of Utah


I am working toward replacing our traditional lecture-based classes in
Fortran and C with classes in which students will read textbooks, use
interactive tutorials, do substantial hands-on work, and ask questions
of lab assistants.  I'd appreciate hearing from any of you that are
doing or contemplating similar things.

			- Joe Zachary
From: t90649ck@sfc.keio.ac.jp (chiaki kusakari)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Computers in the Classroom - are they out there?
Date: 31 Jul 92 04:39:22 GMT
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus.

In article <msanseve.712437576@sol.UVic.CA> msanseve@sol.UVic.CA 
(Mary Sanseverino) writes:
 * I have a question: are there really enough computing classrooms available
 * in the institutes of higher learning around the world?  I ask this because

		[deleted]

 * looks to be making a big break into the humanities, especially in second 
 * language acquisition, I wonder if schools have the hardware to move into 
 * this area.  Certainly multi-media, to be effective, does not need to be 
 * driven by a computer, but ... it sure looks like it helps!      

At Keio University(Japan)'s Shonan Fujisawa Campus,
computers are used for second language acquisition, including
those languages of non-European origin such as Chinese and Korean.

Students work on drills presented by the computer and in some cases
(at least in the Korean classes) send their homework in via 
e-mail. Neither Environmental Information nor Policy Management
(the two fields of study taught at our campus) are devoted only to
computer science. In fact, our campus is a very liberal-artsy kind of
place. Because Keio University's Shonan Fujisawa Campus was founded
only 2 years ago, the facilities are new and there are many computers
to be used by the students (who are required to take a very elementary
course of "computer literacy" in their freshman year).

I'm not positive but I'm sure that there are lots of other ways
that computers are used at our campus by people from non-techinical(?)
fields of study.


# I'm not sure if I was of
# much help but.... :-)

--
        $B!-(B  $B!.(B                     chiaki (chuckie) kusakari
         n  n                    $B7DXf5A=NBg3X4D6->pJs3XIt(B 2.5$BG/(B          
		                    t90649ck@sfc.keio.ac.jp
       "  $B"&(B  "    $B!z(BTrue friends are like diamonds, precious and rare...$B!z(B 
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.graphics
From: mullins@ipc2.macs.ysu.edu ()
Subject: Joint CS/Art Graphics Major??
Followup-To: comp.edu
Keywords: curriculum graphics art computer science
Reply-To: mullins@ipc2.macs.ysu.edu ()
Organization: Math & Computer Science, Youngstown State University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 09:54:50 GMT


 I have been assigned the task of considering a new interdisciplinary
major in graphics involving computer science and art (not graphic arts).

If you have a program at your local university that comes close to
this description I would greatly appreciate learning about it via e-mail.

Detailed information and comments greatfully accepted.  Even a department 
and university name would help, so I can request a brochure.

E-mail to:
mullins@enterprise.macs.ysu.edu      or    fc137501@ysub.ysu.edu

I will summarize results.

-------

Note: followups directed to comp.edu

-------

For those willing to comment regardless of the existance of a local 
program:  :-)

Our Art department has initiated a (soon to be held) discussion on a
joint major in graphics.  They already _use_ PCs for some of their
classes.  They are apparently interested in learning more about the
nuts & bolts (programming/math).  I assume they will also be interested
in available software packages & platforms.  We are primarily a PC
and mainframe campus, but we also have Macs, X-terms, and some SPARCs
(mostly in faculty offices).  We are also connected to the Ohio
Super Computer Center.

So, what do you think of a joint major?  What should it consist of?
What service courses would be essential for Art to run their own major?

-------

Thanks in advance,
Dr. Paul M. Mullins                   mullins@enterprise.macs.ysu.edu
Dept. of Math. & Comp. Sci.
Youngstown State University           fc137501@ysub.ysu.edu
Youngstown, OH 44555-0001
Newsgroups: comp.database,comp.edu,comp.infosystems
From: doug@cis.ohio-state.edu (Doug Kerr)
Subject: What 4GL for a database course?
Originator: doug@bear.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:48:44 GMT


We now require a database design case study in our database course.
The case is typically described in 10 to 15 pages of text and figures.
Currently we have the students design an entity-relationship (ER) and
then a corresponding relational database.  We also have them design,
but not implement, some of the reports and/or forms for the associated
application.  We would like to have them actually implement the
application in a 4GL since we think they will feel much better having
actually built an application.  It will also probably be helpful to
them to have been exposed to a 4GL.

The question: what 4GL would you recommend?  The requirements are:

1. It must interface to Ingres and/or Sybase.

2. It should run on Suns interfacing to the database server running on
a Sun or a DECstation.  Sun SLCs and ELCs are our standard client
computing environment.  We also have some DECstations.  We have both
Sun and DEC servers.

3. It should be easy to learn.  We don't want to spend much time
getting the students up to speed.  Students in the class are typically
senior computer science or information science majors with quite a bit
of programming experience, but no experience with a 4GL, except
possibly on a job.

4. It should reinforce the students' understanding of SQL.  They will
have had some SQL practice before embarking on the case study, but
they certainly won't be experts.

5. Price is a consideration, as it always is for universities.
However price is not the dominant consideration.

6. It's not clear whether a terminal interface or a graphics windowing
interface would be better.  The potential problem with a windowing
interface is that it may be more complex and thus harder to learn.

I will appreciate any suggestions and reports of related experience
and summarize any comments back to the net.

-- 
 Douglas S. Kerr, Department of Computer and Information Science
 The Ohio State University; 2036 Neil Ave. Columbus OH USA 43210-1277
 doug@cis.ohio-state.edu                    614/292-1519
From: mark@kraken.ucsd.edu (Mark Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Colleges Need to Fix the Bugs in Computer-Science Courses
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:58:28 GMT
Organization: W.A.S.T.E.

In article <2388.2a708d66@vger.nsu.edu> g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu (George C. Harrison, Norfolk State University) writes:
>In article <matjmm.711728626@gsusgi1.gsu.edu>, matjmm@gsusgi1.gsu.edu (J. Morgan Morris) writes:
>> pattis@cs.washington.edu (Richard Pattis) writes:
>> 
>>>The July 15th issue of The Chronicle of Higher Education has this article on
>>>page B3, as an opinon piece by Nathaniel S. Borenstein.
>> 
> 
>"The university is...filled with alternative teaching paradigms that have much
>to offer computer science.  Architecture, for example, shares much with
>programming.  

Although the point is well taken that "computer science" is a lot like
(fill in the blank) and could gain a lot from their teaching methods,
I find it ironic in the day when architects have an unemployment rate
around 80% (a figure provided by an unemployed friend) to hold their
field up as something to be emulated.

My belief is that these alternative teaching paradigms are useful in
their respective fields because those teaching were taught with the
same methods.  Most senior CS faculty were trained in some other field.
I don't believe people can easily switch to a paradigm that they were 
not taught with,  especially when teaching is not highly valued in 
employeement decisions.

I'm looking forward to the day when the field is matures to the point
where people can say "Computer Science is like ... Computer Science".

mark
From: g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu (George C. Harrison, Norfolk State University)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Colleges Need to Fix the Bugs in Computer-Science Courses
Date: 25 Jul 92 03:08:21 GMT

In article <matjmm.711728626@gsusgi1.gsu.edu>, matjmm@gsusgi1.gsu.edu (J. Morgan Morris) writes:
> pattis@cs.washington.edu (Richard Pattis) writes:
> 
>>The July 15th issue of The Chronicle of Higher Education has this article on
>>page B3, as an opinon piece by Nathaniel S. Borenstein.
> 
> 
>>Rich Pattis
> 
> I don't know where to read this journal. Could someone post a summary
> of the article?
> 
> Thanks,
> Morgan
> 
> 
> -- 
> John Morgan Morris

Borenstein's article appeared in the July 15, 1992 issue of "The Chronicle of
Higher Education."  Most college libraries should have a copy. 
 
The following is MY opinion of my impression of the article:
 

The author argues that current computer science education is too theoretical -
if it is indeed designed to train programmers for the most part.  He argues
that most programmers need only look up algorithms in established references
(ie Knuth), etc.  My initial impression was quite negative even though my
primary duties in my department are to teach the CS1, CS2, Ada Programming, and
Software Engineering course.  But Borenstein has a point which is well taken -
at least after what I consider shocking statements:
 
"The university is...filled with alternative teaching paradigms that have much
to offer computer science.  Architecture, for example, shares much with
programming.  Architects must design a building in accordance with the laws of
physics and the realities ofr economics, lest it collapse when built or be too
expensive to build in the first place.  Yet if they are trained just in such
'formal' methods, they will build only ugly boxes that  will blight the
landscape, which is, in fact, how some overly 'formal' or 'functional' modern
architects have behaved."
 
"But architects are also trained in aesthetics and the history of architecture
and are encouraged to develop their own creative impulses.  The architecture
curriculum recognizes the need to emcompass both science and art.  Certainly it
has lessons to offer the programmer who must build user-oriented programs that
are cost-effective, reliable, easy to use, and well liked...."
 
"Eventually, it seems inevitable, computer science will develop its own methods
and models for training both programmers and researcdhers.   To date, however,
it has failed to address seriously the difficult questions of training
practical programmers...."

-------------
George C. Harrison, Professor of Computer Science, Norfolk State University
g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.edu.composition
From: r0mill01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu (COMPDIGEST)
Subject: (Fwd: *C&CD*) universal audience (was Re: Communication Model?)         (1) (1)
Organization: University of Louisville
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 09:56:56 GMT


Date:          Fri, 31 Jul 1992 04:53:12 EDT
From:          BITNET%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET"  Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:    <1992Jul31.045312.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:       Must be vacation time (1)
Reply-to:      BITNET%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET"  Robert Royar
Organization:  Cratylus Educational Software

I'm sending this short Digest because a few people have written in the last few
days to ask where we are.  The answer is we're here, but everybody else must be
on vacation.

------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.edu.composition
From: r0mill01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu (COMPDIGEST)
Subject: (Fwd: *C&CD*) universal audience (was Re: Communication Model?)         (1) (1)
Organization: University of Louisville
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:11:50 GMT


Date: 24 Jul 1992 10:16:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Charles A. Hill" <ch2i+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET>
Message-id: <YeQ12c_00UhB41bH8A@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: universal audience (was Re: Communication Model?)         (1) (1)
Reply-to: Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar) <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>

As I understand the notion of the universal audience, it implies that
the rhetor builds a mental picture of how well-informed and "rational"
(whatever that means to the writer) readers might respond to various
appeals.  The rhetor then builds his or her own arguments accordingly.

If you're trying to get published in a journal, or arguing a case in
front of a judge, then I think the universal audience is a relevant
concept.  As I work on my dissertation (which I should be doing now),
I'm constantly hearing the voices of both certain individuals and
generalized others.  The concept of universal audience is meant to be
descriptive rather than to offer a model to follow, but it might have
some heuristic value for people in these situations.

But if you're trying to persuade readers who you are convinced are
ill-informed or irrational or not too bright, then I don't think the
concept is very helpful.  Conceivably, you could say, "How would the
ideal universal audience respond to this argument?  Now how do my
readers differ from this ideal audience?"  But that seems to be taking
the long way around just to get to what you probably already know.

Anyone have a different take on it?  (No, I certainly *don't* claim to
be an expert on the Belgians.)

Charlie Hill
ch2i@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.edu.composition