From: kdelgado@loligo.cc.fsu.edu (Kevin Delgado)
Subject: Re: D&D and Christianity
Organization: Florida State University Computing Center
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 23:01:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.210724.10898@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen) writes:
>
>Sorry if this has already been hashed over, but here's an FAQ I found
>for soc.religion.christian discussing why one should not play AD&D.
>I am curious if there are any christians out there who play AD&D
>and disagree with this FAQ.
>
>-----------------------------------
>Path: christian
>Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
>From: david@maths.su.oz.au (David Fisher)
>Subject: Re: Role Playing Games
>Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
>Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu
>
>[This issue comes up periodically.  I invited a public response when
>normally I would send one privately, because I had neglected to save a
>sampling of postings on the subject for use in such a summary.  I will
>this time.  --clh]
>
>
>In <Jan.21.23.28.07.1992.24630@klinzhai.rutgers.edu> mpk9716@zeus.tamu.edu (KELLY, MICHAEL PATRICK) writes:
>
>>	I am part of a group that plays a popular Role Playing Game, Advanced
>>Dungeons and Dragons.  I have played off and on for eight years.  Last week
>>one of aour group told me he was stopping play because he felt that he could
>>not "give the game over to God".  I do not understand this, but was supportive
>>of his move if the game was dulling his spiritual life.  
>
>>	I know some Christian groups think (or feel) Role Playing is evil, or
>>God does not want us to take part in such games.  Please explain your position
>>on this topic, I await your reply with an open mind.
>
>I became a christian about four years ago, and played AD & D from when I was
>12 until I was 18. For a little while after God rescued me I still played it,

What? No elaboration? Poor writing skills my friend. You have to back up your
points and statements..._how_ did God rescue you...why?

>but he showed me very directly that it was (for me, personally) very
>dangerous to my relationship with him to continue - so I stopped. There
>have been certain other times when I explained to someone why I believe it
>is wrong to play it, and I think I unintentionally came across quite
>forcefully. Therefore, before I say why I believe what I do, understand
>that I am neither condemning anyone nor commanding anyone to  do anything -
>any decision to stop playing AD & D should be from a personal conviction
>that it is wrong in God's eyes, not from someone else's (my) words.
>
>There are 3 reasons I will give :-
>
>(1) Role playing and our thought life.
>
>We are commanded to meditate on scripture (Joshua 1:8), think on good,
>healthy things (Philippians 4) and to be transformed in our thinking
>(Romans 12:2). It is therefore quite important what we let in or don't
>let into our minds. The idea of AD & D is to role-play characters who,
>if they are playing according to the rules and with the stated aims
>of the game in mind, go around killing, casting spells, deceiving and
>being deceived, greedily searching for treasure, worshipping pagan
>gods or even demons and living for themselves. In real life, such people

Nowhere in any of the AD&D rule books have I ever seen anything that says one
must be a raving killer/thief/pervert etc. The purpose of the game is *NOT*
to do these things, it it to role-play...to *imagine* that you are someone
else, and to create and explore a personality for that particular character.
I have never, nor have I ever played with, anyone who thought the purpose was
to be a complete deviant. *Most* people have the intelectual fortitude, and
good sense, to see the more positive possibilites of the game. You, obviously,
do not have such good sense.

>are condemned by the Lord, no exceptions, as stated very explicity in
>many places in the Bible.

Isn't it interesting how all of the attrocities that you have listed as being
an integral part of role-playing, are found so commonly--and so repulsively--
in the majoruty of the so-called *Christian* community. Look at all the major
wars of the last two centuries, nearly all of them have a basis in *Christian*
or other religious problems (WWII, U.S. Civil War, etc...). It never ceases
to amaze me how so many so-called _good Christians_ have raped, murdered,
tortured, and beaten others in the name of *Christianity*. 

>
>I have been through years of filling my mind with warfare, elves,
>magic, powerful swords and gloating demons, and having experienced
>the effects of this on my life I heartily warn any christian away

Oh? And what, pray tell, were these *horrible* effects on your life? Again,
your ignorance of even the simplest of all writing practices shines through.
Back up what you say, vagueness only makes you look bad...and stupid.

>from playing AD & D. I do not mean to offend christian role-players,
>but you do not realize how much AD & D is affecting your life,
>especially your thought life - I had no idea until my mind started
>being filled with scripture, what a devastating effect it had had on me.
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The scriptures or D&D? I wonder.

>
>A man called Selwyn Hughes (I think) said once that you become what you behold.
>If you "let in" the things you commonly find in the Dungeons and Dragons
>world it will have a dramatic effect on you. We are to fix our eyes
>on Jesus, not the things of this world - and certainly not dark worlds
>full of evil and bloodshed and magic. And AD & D worlds are designed
>to be pretty captivating !

The real world is full of evil and bloodshed, much of it caused by Christians.
D&D is no less captivating than the myths expounded by Christianity, the only
difference is that D&D does not have zealous pundits running around trying to
convert (or force when people don't want to convert) people to thier ideals
and beliefs.

>
>Inevitably (and I say this from experience, so naturally I can be
>contradicted, but it also seems quite logical), people whose minds
>are captivated by the concepts and world views of AD & D become more
>and more accepting of evil things. I heard one non-christian boasting
>of how totally evil and mercenary his character was. I have friends
>who, several years ago, refused to play AD & D because it seemed
>slightly repulsive to them, but they started playing after being

Much as I refuse to accept Christianity, as I find it to be slightly
repulsive to me (well, not the basic tenets of the religion itself, mostly
just the windbags who claim to follow those beliefs, even though they rarely
understand what those beliefs are about).

>convinced by friends, and I observed that they are now happy to
>role-play characters doing things they were previously thinking was
>repulsive (this was a change over time).
>
>It is a foolish thing to do, to submit yourself in some way to someone
>else's world view - for example, if you knew someone who hated God

Gee, here's the most intellegent thing you have said all day. Only, it serves
to destroy your whole argument. It *IS* foolish to submit yourself to the
view's of others. Here in America, it is every person's right to believe as
they see fit, however, some *good Christians* have taken it upon themselves
to become the "moral police" of everyone in the U.S. They want certain books
banned, Abortion made illegal, role-playing games outlawed, prayer in school,
and other things that *THEY* specifically believe in. To me, these are the
most completely UNAmerican people on earth, as they go completely against what
America was founded upon...the freedom of choice...to be able to think and to
believe as one sees fit...not as others see fit to have one think. I have
never, do not now, and will never let any person...Christian or otherwise...
force me to believe as they believe. I will always believe as *I* see fit to
do so, as is my right as an American citizen. I suggest you go back and read
the Constitution, if you don't like the fact that people have the right to
believe as they wish...then I suggest you make plans to move out of the 
country.

>and lived with a prostitute and was constantly drunk, it is not a great
>idea to spend a lot of time with him ("bad company corrupts good
>character", proverbs) - unless you are there as an ambassador for

I find that bad company corrupts only those with weak minds. I knew lots of
scummy people in high school, but being around them never made me want to do
drugs, steal, or whatever. In fact, I am probably the most law obiding, good
natured person I know..I don't drink, do drugs, smoke, or anything else that
Christians consider to be *evils*. I do, however, know plenty of Christians
who do these things.

>Jesus, of course. Being around such a person a lot, you would tend
>to "catch" his world view from him. There is an extremely strongly
>presented world view in AD & D. The character of the auther, Gary Gygax
>and everyone else involved, is in severe doubt in my own mind - he has
>obviously used black magic books (see below) as background material

You will aslo find, in the references of the various D&D books, that Gygax
used a great deal of _Christian_ writings as source material. In fact, almost
_ALL_ of the material on demons and devils came from the writings of the
Demonologists of the Catholic church. Does this mean that Christianity is
thus the source of this great evil? I think not.

>while creating the game; God does not exist, Jesus' death is for some

Who is to say that God (assuming the Christian version here) does not exist?
I have seen several D&D campaigns where such was the case. The D&D rulebooks
say absolutley nothing about players being _forced_ to roleplay worship of
the various mythos. They are presented to the gamer as a suggestion, NOT as 
as unbending rule.

>reason unneccesary (implying no sin), "evil" and "good" are just opposite

Actually good and evil are not *just* opposite powers, they are, as in the 
real world, mereley viewpoints...ways of looking at the world. Take, for
instance, the example of Saddam Hussein. In the U.S. he is viewed as an EVIL
person for his actions, while in Iraq (and many other Islamic nations) he is
viewed as a hero...someone who has done a tremendous good for his people (by
sticking up against the "western bullies" who have stuck thier noses in the
people's business for far too many years). Your simple mind, however, can't
see such an abstract concept that has been given an opportunity to be
explored *without* any real bloodshed. 

>and roughly equal powers, and "goodness" is just morality. In a
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Again, you have misinterpreted the design of the game. Goodness is not just
morality, it is a way of viewing the world. In D&D terms, this generally means
that it is not you intent to go around killing, stealing, raping, etc..at
random. Rather, it is your intent to help others out of their problems, to
bring justice to those for whom justice is oppressed, to bring hope to those
for whom there is no hope, to bring peace to a worlf fraught with violence
and destruction. Does this at all sound familiar? It should, it's the exact
same thing that Christianity (the religion, not the majority of its followers)
proclaims as the purpose of good mortals. Good role-players are able to pick
up on this fact, and have thier characters champion these ideals.

>role-playing game, the idea is to imagine you are there, and to
>develop your character, working out what they would do in different
>situations - your eyes are fixed not on Jesus but on your character
>and his world, and you are infected by the godlessness you see there.
>You start to accept things you would never have accepted before, and
>become more like what you see.

Again, there is no truth to what you say about there being godlessness in any
D&D game. In fact, a quick look at some of the pre-Christian religions will
reveal some striking similarities between Christianity and those religions
(take Hercules in comparison to Jesus for example, very similar indeed).
Christianity is hardly an original religion, its just a very arrogant one.

>
>(2) Occult connections
>
>I have had several years of experience with the occult (black magic).

You obviously show a deep lacking of moral fortitude, caused not by any simple
game, but rather by you pathetic lack of will power. This says very little 
about D&D, but speaks volumes about you. I have never had any dealings with
the occult because *I* have the self-will to stay away, you apperently do not
posses such will-power, and are easily swayed by any particularly dominant
view point presented to you...be it the occult...or Christianity.

>It left deep scars on me (including physically) which God has been
>dealing with in lovely ways. There are some things which may not seem
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As my English professors were so fond of saying, explain. What has God done
for you, how has HE/SHE (for you feminists out there) affected you, and most
importantly why? Was it forced upon you? Was it you conscious choice? Do you
even understand what has happened?

>very obvious to people who have had no such experience : if you
>play around with evil (ouji boards, tarot cards, horoscopes, occult
>books) it will affect you spiritually. My own playing around with black
>magic caused me to be demonically oppresses (not the same as possessed)
>and I needed deliverance; about a month after I became a christian, I had
>some prayer and saw Satan defeated in my life. You can't touch fire
>without getting burnt. If you have some problems with these ideas,
>some good books to read are "The Satan seller" by Mike Warnke and
>"Devil on the run" by Nikie Cruz.

Ah, the truth bears out. So, you weren't a Christian all you life I see.
Well, a freind of mine, who I play D&D with, has been a _very_ devout
Christian all his life. He hasn't seemed to have the same problems that you
have had. He has never been involved with anything occult, doesnt kill
people, steal, or otherwise commit attrocious sins. I guess he just is a
far stronger person than yourself.

>
>Here are a few occult connections in Dungeons and Dragons :
>
>(a) demons, well described and illustrated (including pornography, the
>    succubus), with names and powers copied directly from occult books

Ah yes, the Jesse Helms fan club membership shines through here. I guess you
thing the nude paintings by Picasso, Michealangelo, and other great artists
are also pornography. According to Christianity, all things created by God
are beautiful, humans (according to Christianity) were created by God, there-
for, humanity is beautiful. IF this is true, then why would it be a sin for
humans to see other humans in their natural state? For that matter, is it a 
sin to see a rabbit, or a horse, of a tree...just because they were no 
clothes? I think not.

>(b) descriptions of spells which are REAL, including certain spells
>    with material components (neccesary for the spell to work) such
>    as human and animal blood and body parts

Oh I see, now you are saying that magic is REAL. You have lost it, I suggest
you seek immediate psychiatric help. You have lost all connection with 
reality and have become a danger to youself and to the community in general.

>(c) descriptions, spells from and worship of REAL pagan gods - which are
>    demons (1 Corinthians 10:20)

Ah, so now you are saying that these pagan gods really do exist? Come now.

>(d) accurate drawings and descriptions of "magic circles" which are
>    used in REAL LIFE by practicing witches and warlocks to summon up
>    demons and do sorcery, which is condemned in the Bible (Rev.22:15)

It's not terribly hard to draw a circle, people do it everyday. Go get your
handy little compass and you can join in the fun. It's interesting that you
would say that whiches use their "magic" (come now, really) to summon up
demons. If you take a trip to Salem Mass., go talk...or rather listen to a 
*ahem* "real" witch. They will tell you straight out that their purpose is to
do _good_ not evil. 

>
>I myself became very interested in occult things due to the constant
>reference to it in AD & D, and I believe that over a period it
>would be very hard for a non-christian to resist the attraction of
>the descriptions of evil things in the AD & D rule books.

I have played D&D for more than half of my life, I never...not once...even
considered doing anything "evil" as a result of D&D. In fact, D&D has never
inspired me to do a damn thing in real life. IT'S A GAME!! Get that fact 
through your narrow little head, as I have, and maybe you would start to
understand things a little clearer.

>
>Satan is like a roaring lion, prowling around looking for someone to
>devour (1 Peter 5:8). How delighted he must be when someone starts
>becoming interested in him due to descriptions in the AD & D rules.

I think, IF Satan truly exists, that he is more happy watching all the false
Christians... who proclaim and expound the virtues of the religion while not
bothering to adhere to them. He will have, I should expect, a good many souls
of these poor dumb saps to chew on for eternity when the world finally does
end. Many more sould than he would ever get from a game.

>
>(3) "it's just pretend"
>
>Why pretend to be someone who God condemns, anyway ? I believe many players
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Indeed, ask yourself this very same question some time. I think that God is
more apt to condem those who claim to obey His laws, but fail to do so...as
so many "good Christains" have done over the centuries.

>of AD & D do not realize what they are going along with - the most
>common argument is, "it's just a game, we don't take it seriously."

It *IS* just a game, get that through your head. It's no different than say,
Monopoly, it's a way to kick back and relax. Something I suggest you should
learn how to do.

>
>My answer to that is, would you happily play a game where there are
>complete descriptions of tearing babies apart piece by piece, or a game
>where you go and rape every innocent child you can find ? The typical

Hmm, answering a question with a question. Good ploy, but it's an old and
worn trick. D&D is *NOT* a game about tearing babies apart or raping anyone,
those are mere fantasies that you have wrongly projected upon the game, and
a bad comparison to boot. You show your utter lack of knowledge, your sheer
ignorance of the very thing you criticize. Sun Tsu, the great Chinese military
philospher says that one should always _know_ his enemy. You haven't the 
foggiest idea whereof you speak. You only present broad generalities, and
and wildly errent "examples" of a game that you simply do not understand (nor,
I fear, have the capability of understanding). 

>activities which you role play in AD & D are just as disgusting and
>repulsive in the sight of God, as is clear from the Bible.

Nothing that I have *ever* role-played in D&D is any more disgusting and
repulsive in the sight of God than anything any Christian has ever done in
REAL LIFE!

>
>Just imagine for a minute if what happened in an AD & D scenario really
>came true. A world where there is no God, where people aim to kill
>and get treasure, a world where death is commonplace and powerful
>sorcerers intimidate weak peasants. (As an aside, people referred to
>in the AD & D manuals as "cannon fodder" - peasants and poor people -
>in real life are of incredible value to the Lord our God; their lives
>are cheap in the AD & D world.) Would you happily send your young children
>there, or go there yourself ? Would you take up a sword and learn
>sorcery yourself, then go and kill, get treasure in order to "gain
>experience" ? What kind of experience is being gained by such people,
>anyway ? Proficiency in power and ability to kill quickly.

Again, you show you ignorance of the game you criticize.

>
>To anyone who is a christian and plays AD & D :
>
>Everything in our life should be pleasing to God (2 Cor 5:9)
>I just finished reading a book by a freemason who became a christian.
>He couldn't see anything wrong with freemasonry, and didn't like it when
>people told him that it was against God.  Finally, someone said something
>like, "Leave it on the altar before God. Let him show you whether it's
>right or wrong. I can guarantee you that within six months God will have
>shown you." This he did, and four months later he was totally
>convinced that freeemsonry was incompatible with christianity.
>A question : is AD & D something you would not be prepared to give
>up if God made it clear to you that he wanted you to ? "We make it our
>goal to please him." Therefore, let everything in your life be open
>before God, and let him add what he wants to add, and take away what
>he wants to take away.

Fortunately, I am *NOT* a Christian, nor do I ever plan to become one. I have
only ever seen a few examples of what I would consider to be truly good 
Christian behavior (from people such as Mother Theresa, and a small handfull
of others). For the most part, the Christians I have seen are not interested
in doing Christian things (beyond church on Sundays), they are more interested
in doing things for themselves, just as you accuse role-players of doing. I
do not wish to be associated with such a horrid bunch of filth in any way
shape or form...especially not in name. 

>
>With love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour and Redeemer and
>	Shepherd and King and Judge and Burder-Bearer and Life-Giver and
>	God,
>         David Fisher.
>
>fisher_d@galois.maths.su.oz.au
>
>He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and
>men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion
>that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed
>  - Daniel 7:14

Ah yes, one of the many false proverbs of the Bible. By whom was He given
authority? Not all peoples, nations, and men worship him...not by a long shot.
Sooo many Buddhists and Hindus...so LITTLE chance of them ever being converted
to Christianity! *BIG SIGH OF RELIEF*

>
>
>[I should note that AD&D is a specific role playing system, which
>includes a particular imaginary world.  People tend to use "dungeons
>and dragons" generically for a whole class of activities that I would
>call "fantasy role-playing".  However the world of AD&D is just one
>possible world for role-playing.  It's possible to have games with
>explicit Christian content.  But it's also possible to have systems
>that involve more explicit evil than AD&D, such as a role-playing game
>based on the Cthuulu mythos.  There also appear to be variations in
>how games are carried out.  My experience with role-playing is
>entirely in a church context.  A couple of them were role-playing
>games with explicit Christian purposes, e.g. one taking place in a
>society where Christianity was outlawed, examining what it would be
>like for Christians.  I was also involved in expeditions using the
>AD&D background, but ignoring its magical implications.  That is,
>spells were treated as simply an unusual piece of techology.  E.g.
>you might find an object that would heal all wounds.  You used it by
>saying "I use the wand of healing".  No rituals or wording was
>specified or used.  Nor were they associated with any religion.  We
>also didn't go in for back-stabbing, etc.  It was simply adventure in
>an unsual setting.  I mention my experiences to point out that there
>seem to be somewhat different overall "chemistries" among different
>groups, and this is likely to affect the spiritual impact on its
>members.  There are certainly role-playing games I would want nothing
>to do with.  Where I agree with David is that it's important to look
>at how you spend your time and imagination, and the effects on you.
>This does not necessarily mean it's always right to play basketball
>and wrong to play D&D.  Basketball can be played for blood, and a
>D&D-like game among Christians can be perfectly OK.  But there are
>certainly dangers in role-playing games that one should be alert to.
>--clh]
>

The only "dangers" that I have ever encountered in my many years of role-
playing, have been in the form of viscious paper cuts, pencil leads stuck in
my finger, and an occasional bad pizza. The only thing dangerous about the
game is the people that play it, some peope are not capable of distinguishing
between imagination and reality. That is not the fault of the game, but rather
a powerful inadequacy of the few (very) that play these games and have this
problem. The blame for any destructive or otherwise harmful behavior should be
placed upon them...not the game. Remember, guns don't kill people...PEOPL kill
people. The same argument holds true here.

>
>john
>
>
>
>-- 
>John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __	
>jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
>                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
>  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\


Kevin

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd