HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: /T/T/ Mensa Frauds Exposed - Fraud #1
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 20:35:43 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.185143.28488@ncsu.edu>
 tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>>No, MENSA has implied all along that these tests are the equivalent of IQ
>>>tests.

>>Can you cite a source for this?  Hwo do you know that Mensa has done
>>*anything* "all along"?  Do you have ANY Mensa literature, let alone a
>>historical trace of it?

>As I stated above, MENSA has never explicitly claimed that these tests
>are the equivalent.  However, they imply that they are, by accepting them
>as entrance requirements.

Where's the implication?  Only if you assume that Mensa uses IQ as the
standard for admission -- which is not the case -- does the practice of
using aptitude tests for admission imply that.

Mensa makes it QUITE CLEAR that its standards involve high scoring on
any of SEVERAL types of tests.  They, unlike you, are not hung up on the
IQ issue.

Now, once again, where't the implication?  Use Mensa documents and other
information about ACTUAL Mensa practices (not the ones YOU've assumed,
implied, inferred, or fantasized about) to demonstrate your point.

Roger
From: jess%miracle@merk.com (Shi'nayne)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/ What is the purpose of this newsgroup and Mensa?
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:16:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.8XeTiB2w164w
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:

> phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) writes:
> 
> > Scott, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW????  You arn't a memeber of Mensa, nor hav
> > you ever attended a Mensa function.
> 
> How do you know if I've attended?  Don't assume anything...
> 
> > I can say that people who study artificial intelligence are the
> stupidest narrow minded people in the world.  They must be naturally
> stupid, beacuse
> > they never listen to what other people have to say.  All they can do
> is
> > play with their computers (and themselves :->) and complain about
> groups
> > that won't let them join.
> 
> Nice generalization.  However, once again, you're assuming too much.
> 
> > I'd hate to be working with you when you finally get out of college [...]
> 
> Another assumption...
> 
> Come back when you can offer some concrete facts to the group.
> 
> ---------
> Scott Tai

No, YOU come back when  you can offer some concrete facts to this group!!


Vampire Hunters Inc.
jess%miracle@merk.com
If you have vampire problems, call!!  We'll
stake your problem right through the heart!!
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: The purpose of this newsgroup (was Re: TIME TRAVEL)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1992 00:25:16 -0500

phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) wrote:

 PH> (well... ignore unless I have a real juicy flame to attack them
 PH> back with, it's occassionally fun to have a good argument...
 PH> Is this the right place for an argument? :-))

phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel) replied:

 PZ> No, this newsgroup is for abuse -- arguments are the next
 PZ> newsgroup down the ha... No, on second thought, that's abuse, too.

I added:

 DA> Maybe we should send Scott Tai and gmc to Being Hit
 DA> on the Head lessons!

Phil replies:

 PH> I'd prefer it if we just drop the 16T weight on their heads.

 Maybe lessons on How Not To Be Seen?  We can't lose either way!
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/ Mensa Frauds Exposed - Fraud #1
Date: 5 Apr 92 23:12:52 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU

In article <1992Apr5.204448.11033@ncsu.edu>
 tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:

>> Wrong as usual.  The stuff written said that the tests were not IQ tests;
>> they did not say that the tests did not correlate to IQ tests.  There is a
>> difference between "correlate" and "equate" that you are conveniently
>> ignoring.

>No, MENSA has implied all along that these tests are the equivalent of IQ
>tests.

Can you cite a source for this?  Hwo do you know that Mensa has done
*anything* "all along"?  Do you have ANY Mensa literature, let alone a
historical trace of it?

As far as I know you have never read ANY Mensa literature.  Why not shut
up until you're arguing from something other than 100% ignorance?

>  However, aptitude tests measure ability to learn, and are NOT
>equivalent.  Even the ETS has stated this.

So has Mensa.  Can you cite a SINGLE Mensa source that says anything
else?

Roger

>
>---------
>Scott Tai
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/ Mensa Frauds Exposed - reasons exposed
Date: 5 Apr 92 23:07:01 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU

In article <1992Apr5.203708.10453@ncsu.edu>
 tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>

>> should be able to join it?
>

>slanted test scores.
>

You know, it's always amusing when someone tries to get a cross a pair
of mutually contradictory ideas at once.  You, Scott, are working on a
threesome, which is impressive indeed.

First you claimed that the test scores were INHERENTLY geared toward one
race over another.

Then you claimed that socioeconomic factors caused some ethnic groups to
score higher than others, while  seeming to withdraw the "inherent"
claim.

Now you say the TEST SCORES are slanted!

So, which is it?  Do different groups have inherent differences when
they test?  Or are the differences caused by socioeconomic factors?  Or
are the tests GEARED toward one group or another?  

All three, I suppose.

Well, as someone who's actually paid a fair amount of attention to the
debates about tests over the past 15 years or so, and who's actually
been part of several different research efforts in this regard, let me
tell you some of the results:

-- SAT and GRE scores are *not* slanted.  Culturally biased questions
are removed at an early stage of test development.

-- Socioeconomic status is DEFINITELY a predictor of aptitude.  This
does not mean, however, that remedying socioeconomic inequality will
remove all differences in aptitude.

-- Nobody has been able to find inherent differences in test outcomes
from different ethnic groups.

Now, if you're trying to say that nobody should EVER be selected on the
basis of test scores, just because rich folks tend to do better on them,
come out and say it.  

Then tell us why.

Otherwise, how about posting about one tenth as much, and not posting
things that are merely not-so-snappy comebacks to people who challenge
your self-contradictory statements about things you yourself have
admitted you know precious little about.

Roger
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Nixon, swearing, Quakers
Date: 9 Apr 92 21:06:22 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <2120.29E43FFD@kennel.FIDONET.ORG|> Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner) writes:
|>
|>Dave Aronson writes about "Harsh Language in Recent Post" to All  [08 Apr 92
|>11:46]
|>
|> MS|> Even the president doesn't have to
|> MS|> swear, but can affirm, when he assumes office.
|>
|>DA|>  As Nixon did (being a Quaker).
|>
|>yeah, he saved his swearing for the back rooms while the tape machine was recording.
|> 
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

For the record, when Nixon referred to his Quaker background, in another
instance, his actions were immediately rebuked by the Friends.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: terryk@encore.com (Terence M. Kelleher)
Subject: Re: Issac Asimov
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
	<14167@claris.com>
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:58:00

In article <14167@claris.com> Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:

   Other notable Mensans include the Late Buckminster Fuller (honorary
   International President), Sir Clive Sinclair (Sinclair Computers), Don
   Pedersen (former president of Ford Motor Company), F. Lee Bailey, Theodore
   Bikel, Adrian Kronaur (SP?) (_Good Morning, Vietnam!_), and Jean Auel.

Also, the late Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.
--

                                 +----------------+
Terence Kelleher              +--+-------------+  |
Encore Computer Corp.         |  | E N C O R E |  |
terryk@encore.com             |  +-------------+--+
607-687-2644                  +----------------+
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/T/ What is the purpose of this newsgroup and Mensa?
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:13:34 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:

>> "typical" is for Mensa?  I've been in  Mensa 3 years, I have not.
> ST>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>> ST> Sorry, couldn't pass this one up... :) 
>> 
>> You should learn how to read.  Terry saids that even though he has been in
>> Mensa
>> for three years, he has not attended enough Mensa functions to be
sure of what
>> is "typical" is for Mensa.  He was challenging your claim that you
know what
>> is typical for Mensa.
>>  
>> Mike Steiner

>Isn't it possible that Mr. Tai was making a flippant remark about the
>structure (or lack of structure) of this sentence?  The issue has nothing
>to do with Mr. Tai's ability to read!   :)

No doubt! :) 

---------
Scott Tai
From: kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu (Stephen Kurtzman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Fermat's flunkeys (was Re: A Real Challenge)
Date: 11 Apr 1992 20:28:58 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <2168.29E58EEF@kennel.FIDONET.ORG>
Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner) writes:

>I still can't understand how they can
>have an 11th-grade reading requirement to get a 14th-grade diploma.  But, then
>again, I can't understand how someone who can read only at the second-grade
>level can get a HS diploma.

In the early seventies, Jerry Brown created an uproar in California
by pushing for standards which would require every student to perform
at an 8th-grade level in reading, writing, and arithmetic before they
could get their HS diploma. His critics seriously argued that half the
students awarded HS diplomas would have to return them if the law were
made retroactive.
-- 

Stephen Kurtzman             | "where desire writhed there stands a stone;
kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu      |  the change was sudden and complete"
                             |                              -- Maggie Roche
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: how to read rec.org.mensa in two minutes per day!
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 23:37:55 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.192200.3021@Princeton.EDU>, hellmond@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Peter H. Hellmonds) writes:
> 
> -- Peter (for the humor-impaired --> :-)  )

Don't pander to those people, Peter.  Next thing you know they'll
be moving next door, grimacing at you from their back yard.  
Is it worth it for this one cheap thrill?


- GMarkS
From: jess%miracle@merk.com (Shi'nayne)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/ grohol and beating a dead horse ...
Date: 10 Apr 92 13:51:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.goP1iB6w164w
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:

> grohol@novavax.UUCP (John Grohol) writes:
> 
> > ETS is nobody's God. Try looking at the research in the field. As
> > I've said in the past, and will say so in the future, this is not
> > even a matter of contention to those who are in the field of
> > psychometric testing. The only person who seems to dispute these
> > high correlations are you and ETS. Check out:
> 
> I am indeed interested in checking out these sources.  However, if possible,
> please provide some additional information; as you can see, I've tried with
> the information given and it is extremely tedious to track the stuff down!
> 
              <sources deleted>

> 
> ---------
> Scott Tai

Scott, ever heard of a library???  Preferably one that has access to the
library of congress, like a college library or something.  But any library
will have at least some of what you're looking for, I'm sure...

Warrior Queen


Vampire Hunters Inc.
jess%miracle@merk.com
If you have vampire problems, call!!  We'll
stake your problem right through the heart!!
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller)
Subject: Re: /T/ Cattell Culture Fair Test
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 18:01:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <xyzzy> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>
>>Like the Cattell Culture Fair test to name one.
>
>[ MENSA test score requirements ]
>
> California Test of Mental Maturity                     IQ 132
> (California) Test of Cognitive Skills                  IQ 132
> Cattell                                                IQ 148
> ^^^^^^^                                                ^^^^^^
> [...]
> Stanford Binet, Form L-M                               IQ 132
> Wechler Adult and Children Scales
>     (WAIS and WAIS-R, WISC and WISC-R)                 IQ 130
> Otis-Lennon Tests                                      IQ 132
> Otis-Gamma Test                                        IQ 131
>
>I'm curious why the Cattell score required is significantly higher 
>( > 15 points) than for any other IQ tests.

Why is the SAT score required for membership so much higher than
all of the scores listed above?  Why is the ACT score so much
lower?  (Hint:  just because they all have "IQ" written before them
doesn't mean that they represent standard numbers on some absolute
scale.)
From: killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: signing off rec.org.mensa for the time being
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:03:21 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS-lab

In <1992Apr7.222004.928@cs.ucla.edu> kenn@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Kenn Frankel) writes:

>chesl@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gail Chesler) writes:

>the whiners.  How can we go about starting moderation?

I believe we have to wait for 6 months.  At least that is the case
in a failed group proposition.  But I don't have the guidelines
available, so I can really only guess.

But do as I did, put Mike and Scott into your kill-file, the rest
of the posts are mostly intelligent.
--
************************************************************************
* The night sky over the planet Krikkit is the least interesting sight *
* in the entire Universe.  -- Douglas Adams, HHGTG                     *
************************************************************************
From: jc@sppip7.lkg.dec.com (John Chambers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ and religious belief
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:45:47 GMT
Reply-To: jc@sppip7.lkg.dec.com (John Chambers)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <1992Apr4.191643.15419@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, hall@orion.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Philip Hall 283-4031) writes:
|> Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!hollie.rdg.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!aio!orion!hall
|> |> > Do you have any problem believing that there might be beings in
|> |> > the universe who are so far above us in intelligence and ability to
|> |> > manipulate the environment that they could create the observed 
|> |> > "miracles" which religious individuals interpret as evidence of the
|> |> > existence of "God"?
|> |> 
|> |> Nope; I have no problem with that concept.  BTW, what do you think
|> |> about the possibility that if such beings existed, that there are
|> |> other beings who are to them as they are to us?
|> 
|> That was precisely the point. There are probably beings "higher" than
|> us implies there are beings higher than them, etc. It's not really
|> a giant step from there to conclude that there is a "highest" being -
|> this seems to make logical sense.

To see the fallacy here, let's use a mathematical example,  so  as  to
avoid  the  emotional  connotations of "god" or "higher being".  Let's
make the definition: the natural number X is "higher than" the natural
number Y iff X is equal to Z*Y for some natural number Z > 1.

Thus 12 is higher than 2, 3, 4, and 6, but it is not higher than 5, 7,
8, etc.  All the integers are higher than 1, of course.

Let's now attempt to apply the above reasoning.  We observe  that  for
any  small number such as 2, 3, or 6, there are higher numbers such as
12, 30, and so on. Furthermore, for each of these, we can in turn find
higher  numbers, such as 60 and 120.  But can we infer that there must
be a highest number? Of course not; it is trivial to show that for any
number there is one higher.  Just multiply it by 2.

Perhaps there is a highest being in the universe. Perhaps not. Perhaps
you're  it.  In any case, the above attempt to apply informal logic is
unworthy of rec.org.mensa; you should be ashamed for  even  attempting
to pass it off in this forum. Perhaps in a religious discussion group,
where they generally don't know or care about  elementary  logic,  but
here you had better expect to be flamed for such feeble logic.

(;-)
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Subject: /T/ MENSA Groups Nonexistent in this Area
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:32:04 GMT

phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) writes:

> Perhaps the same reasons that you continue to post messages to a newsgroup
> of an organization you aer morally opposed to.  If you have problems, join
> the group run for office and get the group to change from within.  You will
> never succeed from the outside.  Short of that, ignore the group.

Okay, I tried just that.  The Raleigh phone book contained no listing of any
MENSA group.  Hard to believe, considering it is home to the largest
university in North Carolina and South Carolina!  Let me know how where the
closest MENSA group is.  (Chapel Hill or Durham, perhaps?)

---------
Scott Tai
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Who's in charge here?
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1992 18:30:06 -0500

kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:

 KJ> If you want to help people sort out the Mensa related stuff from
 KJ> the rest of the glop, you can run an index group.

What's an index group?  (And please don't tell me just to go take a look at one,
because it's not by any means easy or quick for me to add a newsgroup here.)

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jlc5f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jean L. Cooper)
Subject: Re: /T/ Cattell Culture Fair Test
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 20:39:15 GMT

The Cattell test mentioned in the Mensa brochure is not
the Cattell Culture Fair test, but is the Cattell Short
Form, version B.
--
Jean L. Cooper    (BITNET: JLC5F@virginia.edu   CIS: 70253,1114)

"The true University of these days is a Collection of Books." 
                                           --Carlyle                        
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Rebuttal/Anecdote/Respec
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:11:52 -0500

lomasm@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (M91) writes:

M> The present multiple threads of (intelligent?) abuse and "you
M> said so-and-so and meant so-and-so" is of little value,
M> childish, and proves that Mensa does not mean maturity, good
M> sense, or `being logical'.

 Did anyone ever claim it did?  All it means is a score in the top 2% of
 any of several test, and having bothered to join.  Anybody who claims
 anything else is Just Plain Wrong.  We have our fair share of fools and
 assholes; those traits do not correlate with the tests we accept.

M> You have your chance to redeem yourselves and possibly even convince
M> me that Mensa is worth joining.

 Whether the people are nice (another subjective judgement) or not is
 still only one of many factors in that decision.  It still might prove
 totally worthless to you.  And some organizations very valuable, even
 if they are full of foolish flaming assholes.

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ehp@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU ("Didi Pancake")
Subject: Re: Elitism
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1992 22:02:08 GMT

FINALLY, a voice of reason, a breath of fresh air. Thank you, thank you!
--
|  Didi Pancake         |       "There is a great, red cheeseball        |
|  ehp@virginia.edu     |       of insanity in this picnic basket."      |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  All the usual disclaimers about the origins of these opinions apply.  |
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/ Scott just showed his true colors
Date: 7 Apr 92 07:59:05 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Scott Tai writes about "/T/ Scott just showed his true colors" to All  [06 Apr
92 21:46]

ST> [...] Studies have shown that intelligence is based primarily 
ST> on hereditary and genetic factors. To have a group solely for 
ST> people with a certain IQ or test score is nothing less than blatant 
ST> discrimination [...] 

ST> Where did I mention race in the above article? 

SCREAM!!!!   Are you saying that race is neither hereditary nor genetic?
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/ Harsh Language in Recent Post
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1992 01:07:32 -0500

Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG writes:

 MS> [tons of expletives deleted]

 Mikey, Mikey, Mikey, whaddawe gonna do wit' you?  B-)  This is exactly
 the sort of response that twits like Tai hope to provoke... and that
 offend other people here, make the rest of us wade thru garbage, and
 make Mensa itself look bad.  Chill out.  Have a banana.  Maybe group
 your responses to him, so those of us who know about him can skip it
 all at once.  Whatever.  But please... don't stoop to the gutter.  We
 know you're better than that.

 MS> I wonder though, did she get her rabbies shots before or after?

 Let's see, she had Rabbi Goldberg shot before, and Rabbi Silverman
 after....  B-)

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jlc5f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jean L. Cooper)
Subject: Re: Some hard questions (was: Books that last)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 13:09:48 GMT

WHY should we allow publishers to determine what should be
transferred to electronic formats?  In essense, this allows
them to determine what will be preserved and what future 
generations will read.  The items that publishers chose will
likely be "popular" items that sell, rather than useful items
that don't sell.  Is that how we really want to preserve our
cultural heritage?
--
Jean L. Cooper    (BITNET: JLC5F@virginia.edu   CIS: 70253,1114)

"The true University of these days is a Collection of Books." 
                                           --Carlyle