From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<6111.2acc6999@hayes.com> <1992Oct03.233823.24925@NeoSoft.com>
	<6145.2ad1dc34@hayes.com> <strobl.718461278@gmd.de>
	<6170.2ad5a35b@hayes.com> <strobl.718757688@gmd.de>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 03:41:21 GMT

Bill> == bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
WS>   == Wolfgang Strobl <strobl@gmd.de> 

 WS> I too rememember the standard shortcuts like Ins, Del, PgUp and so
 WS> on, mostly because they are separate keys on the standard PC
 WS> keyboard (the one just recently adapted on the Macintosh, if I'm
 WS> not mistaken).

Why do PC users always treat 1987 as "recent"?  Not in this industry it
isn't.  If you want to compare modern ix86 machines to the Mac Plus, go
ahead, I'll compare the PC/XT to my IIci.  It's only fair.

 Bill> Which is exactly the point. If you have to think about the
 Bill> shortcuts, then you might as well use the mouse -- its faster. If
 Bill> you can't remember them instantly, game over.

 WS> Not so. My fingers reside on the keyboard.

Until you reach over to the keypad or cursor-block to find Ins, Del,
PgUp and the like so you can use the "working" version of whatever
shortcut you just failed to be able to use in a dialog box.  *My* pinky,
not being four inches longer than my other fingers, can't touch-type
that far away from the home row.  And I have to look to see where the
keys are, unlike with a mouse, which I can find with peripheral vision
and feel.

 WS> Why didn't you use the Ins key? I use it all the time, it is easily
 WS> reachable, and it works everywhere.

Easily reachable, huh?  Not on any "standard" 101-key layout I've ever
seen or used.  It's barely possible to stretch my pinky to it while
keeping my index finger on the J key, and I certainly can't do it
without looking.  On the other hand, Cmd-V is just "hit Cmd with either
thumb, left index finger moves to V".

 WS> Hm. To me, the Ctrl+C shortcut is very nonintuitive.

It's both intuitive ("[C]opy") and in a nice block on my keyboard with
Undo, Cut, and Paste (ZXCV).  To "X" something is a reasonably mnemonic
term for cutting it, and "V" looks like an insert-here mark to me.  Of
course it's not Ctrl-C here, but Cmd-C; Ctrl-C is left free for my term
program.

 WS> But you're right, shortcuts (those equivalent to Command-O, not the
 WS> keyboard/menu interface) could be more standard between Windows
 WS> applications. Many don't have any shortcuts, and if they have, they
 WS> aren't always identical.  Microsoft seems to have standardized on
 WS> Ctrl+F12 for File Open (the use it in Word and Excel), but it isn't
 WS> standardized enough to be usefull. I don't use them often. On the
 WS> other hand, people are different - I know others who like them:
 WS> Ctrl+F12, Ins, Shift+F3, Enter ..., so I'm not so fast to condem
 WS> that feature.

Ctrl-F12?  Ooh, that's SO easy to touch-type!  Especially on a laptop
without function keys!  And so mnemonic!  I always associate the number
12 with "open"!  Why, that's such a shortcut it might save me, um, oh,
no time over using the mouse!  Even if I had to go find one in another
room...and that's assuming the program I'm using doesn't move File Open
to Alt-Shift-F4.

 WS> YOu can't have experience in that area [two-letter shortcuts] as a
 WS> Macintosh user, because that feature doesn't exist on a Macintosh.

Some Mac programs do use two-letter command-key shortcuts (White Knight
among them).  I dislike them.
--
Christopher K. Davis      |       NET.INSIGHTS INTO ARTISTIC CRITICISM:
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   | ``[Y]ou don't cure bad art by locking it all up
System Administrator, EFF | in one museum, you cure it by throwing tomatoes
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   | at bad artists.'' --Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com>