From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:11:31 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology

In article <1992Jul20.220422.6838@wpi.WPI.EDU> nyh@lektroid.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.160439.110302@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>
>>Please cite the relevant elements of Jewish scriptures that prescribe shooting
>>people in the back while they run away.
>
>
>	I am not sure what you are talking about but it is not
>relvant.  You see - Sandra said that they were worshipers - those who
>were praying at the wall were certinly not the inciters - the
>inciters would [my logic] be on the same level at the mousq - unless
>you are a stone it will take you time to go from the mousq to the
>wall [base].
>
>	Stone dead is rather similar to bullet dead - inciting is not
>known to be a cause for an attempted murder.
>
>
>	Anyone hit a direct hit by such a stone [and I assume we all
>seen them on TV]  is rather deadly.  The stone throwers have attempted
>murder and if the only way to stop them is by shooting ... I donno why
>there is an argument.  The army has a 'stopping a suspect procedure'
>that calls for the soldier to shout "Stop" in Hebrew and in Arabic [if
>possible] if the suspect dosen't stop then he is supposed to shoot
>warning shots in the air if then the suspect dosen't stop he is
>supposed to shoot towards the legs - and in the unlikely event that
>then the suspect dosen't stop - shoot to kill.  However the order of
>shoot to kill can be given only by an officer. [I may be rusty on
>small details but this is preety much the official procedure].  The
>said procedure is well known to all soldiers holding guns.
>
>	This procedure might not apply in this case where there was an
>attempt at murder - and think about it - if the border guard wouldn't
>have moved there would have been such - so they were doing thier job -
>the question is if they could have saved the lives of the wall
>worshipers by killing less - I think so but I wasn't there.
>
>
>
>
>	Anwar, noone said that the soldiers were worshipers - I am not
>sure anyone of us knows even what is the religion of the soldier
>[there are alot of Druez in the Border Guard].  On the other hand
>Sandra did prefer to call them worshipers rather then
>stone-thorwers-at-innocent-wall-prayers - though I respect most of
>your posts [agreeing with you or not] I have to say that this one was
>way bougus[sp?]!
>
>
>		-Nevo

Nevo summed up nicely the strict and clear "Open Fire directives"
that the army uses in dealing with rioters. In the case of the temple
mount incident there was a suspicion of some soldiers ignoring these 
orders and shooting with negligence. the whole thing was investigated 
by a specail ad-hoc commity and they had investigated the arguments of
all sides [The Arabs and the Israeli left demanded another commity but
they testified in it nonetheless.

to summarize the commity's report:
----------------------------------

The Arabs were gathering in the El-Aqsa mosque in that day following 
rumors spread of the Jewish sect "Neemanei Har Habyit" (The Faithful of
temple Mount) intentions to hold a prayer in the temple mount site.

The Religious Leaders of the Waqf and others were informed that the
court banned the group from enetring the Site, and the mayor and the 
police chiefs talked with arab chiefs that day telling them they have
nothing to protest about and asked them to calm down their masses.

For some reason (Israelis tend to say: malice) the Arabs continued as
if nothing happened and the "hordes of Kufr Zionists" are going to 
take the mosque from them. The police, negligently and smugly assigned
a very small police force to see that things don't get out of hand.

and then there was the incident of Arabs hurling stones from the Mosque
onto the "Wailing Wall"'s plaza where 20-30K Jews and toursits were 
worshipping. 

Afterwards a guard in the Mosque dropped in mistake a Smoke grenade on
the floor, and by this causing an enormous hysteria(one little bolt
that caused the fall of the country story). from this there are many
versions. In any case there was a great confrontation between
insufficiently equipped and manned police force and a mass of Arabs in
the mosque. There were some indescretions from the procedure authorized
by an Border Guard officer. Some officers in the Police were forced to
resign (the Commander in Jerusalem for instance). There were
reorganization and repeating of the commads to all security personnel.
The total number of Arabs dead in this incident was 17 and not 21 as
previously reported. 3 or 4 soldiers were hit badly from stones hurled
at them. no civilian were injured from the stones miraculosely(sp?).

I hope that these facts (as far as my memory serves) sheds some light
on the heated discussion. This is the Israeli version of the story and
it is of course not agreed upon by the Arabs. especially concerning the
confrontation of the mob and the soldiers/policeman.

Shalom from Israel, "The land of Milk and Honey"
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!
Summary: Temple Mount events - some facts
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Keywords: temple mount, facts

In article <1992Jul20.220422.6838@wpi.WPI.EDU> nyh@lektroid.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.160439.110302@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>
>>Please cite the relevant elements of Jewish scriptures that prescribe shooting
>>people in the back while they run away.
>
>
>	I am not sure what you are talking about but it is not
>relvant.  You see - Sandra said that they were worshipers - those who
>were praying at the wall were certinly not the inciters - the
>inciters would [my logic] be on the same level at the mousq - unless
>you are a stone it will take you time to go from the mousq to the
>wall [base].
>
>	Stone dead is rather similar to bullet dead - inciting is not
>known to be a cause for an attempted murder.
>
>
>	Anyone hit a direct hit by such a stone [and I assume we all
>seen them on TV]  is rather deadly.  The stone throwers have attempted
>murder and if the only way to stop them is by shooting ... I donno why
>there is an argument.  The army has a 'stopping a suspect procedure'
>that calls for the soldier to shout "Stop" in Hebrew and in Arabic [if
>possible] if the suspect dosen't stop then he is supposed to shoot
>warning shots in the air if then the suspect dosen't stop he is
>supposed to shoot towards the legs - and in the unlikely event that
>then the suspect dosen't stop - shoot to kill.  However the order of
>shoot to kill can be given only by an officer. [I may be rusty on
>small details but this is preety much the official procedure].  The
>said procedure is well known to all soldiers holding guns.
>
>	This procedure might not apply in this case where there was an
>attempt at murder - and think about it - if the border guard wouldn't
>have moved there would have been such - so they were doing thier job -
>the question is if they could have saved the lives of the wall
>worshipers by killing less - I think so but I wasn't there.
>
>
>
>
>	Anwar, noone said that the soldiers were worshipers - I am not
>sure anyone of us knows even what is the religion of the soldier
>[there are alot of Druez in the Border Guard].  On the other hand
>Sandra did prefer to call them worshipers rather then
>stone-thorwers-at-innocent-wall-prayers - though I respect most of
>your posts [agreeing with you or not] I have to say that this one was
>way bougus[sp?]!
>
>
>		-Nevo
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>Nevo Y.	 Hed              nyh@wpi.wpi.edu
>++1-508-754-2491          CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
>"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx



-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast