HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Cross-Writing (was: Books I Got For Xmas)
Date: 6 Jan 1993 00:10:12 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Heather henderson writes:

	Do they teach Wodehouse and Benson in literature courses at Oxford?

Of course they do. Both received honorary D.Litts from several Universities
and Plum Wodehouse a Knighthood "for services to Literature". Several
women writers in England taught/teach in major universities, and  I sat
in on Iris Murdoch's lectures myself. It will be remembered that "L500
a year and a Room of One's Own" was originally a talk given at Girton
College, Cambridge. 


Any more questions?

						RABworm

from a country where writers are writers.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Cross-Writing (was: Books I Got For Xmas)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:16:50 GMT

In article <5JAN93.17043154@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>Now, is "writing like a man" only a concept that
>comes into play when women writers bid to be taken seriously?

When have women writers not bid to be taken seriously? 

I note here that there is a distinction between what is misleadingly
called "writing like a man" and the activity we may call "creating male
characters."


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mgrimes@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael Grimes)
Subject: Re: propriety in Pride and Prejudice
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:34:24 GMT

Flashback:  Many years ago when I was a sophomore in high school all seniors 
had to read Pride and Prejudice in their College prep lit course. A snior girl 
friend said to me," You have to read Pride and Prejudice right now! You remind 
me so much of the father! "

So I read it and failed to see myself as Mr. Bennett.  Of course, it was just a
stupid joke on her part.
From: rhogan@phakt.usc.edu (Ron Hogan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 02:18:21 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

Me: The thesis of _Intellectuals_ seems to be, "the people we claim are
the great shapers of modern thought were all depraved, immoral, and had
lousy personalities."

Tim Starr:
>I didn't take Johnson's thesis therein to be that at all.  For one thing,
>the sample was hardly representative of the great shapers of modern thought
>(e.g., only one of the great state-of-nature political philosophers, Rousseau,
>was included, neither Hobbes, who had chronological priority, nor Locke,
>who arguably has had greater influence).  It seemed to me much more that
>Johnson wished to expose some corruption in Western intelligentsia on the
>theory that sunlight is the best disinfectant.

I agree with you that the sample is woefully unrepresentative.

As far as our divergence, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying 'some'
where I said 'all'.  So you think he's being selective, and I think he's
stacking the deck.

I mean, look at his cases.  Rousseau, Shelley, Hemingway.  It's not like
he even tried to make things hard for himself by finding somebody who led
a nominally conventional life.  It's like the Albert Goldman school of
intellectual history-- not so much sunlight being the best disinfectant
as dragging historical figures through the mud.

Ron Hogan

I'm willing to change 'all' to 'many of the
shapers of modern thought', though.

And to be PC, we should call them 'dysfunctional'
rather than 'depraved and immoral'.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: academic settings
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:50:48 GMT

In article <1ipq4rINNkce@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:

>	Tom Brown's School Days?
>
>While this may not have been intended seriously -- I never know nowadays --
>it would make a great introduction to McDonald's (?) *Flashman* novels.

I confess to having read George Macdonald Fraser's Flashman books without
having gotten through TOM BROWN'S SCHOOL DAYS. Fortunately, the latter is
not necessary to enjoy the former.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: bhanafee@picasso.ads.com (Brian Hanafee)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems, Mountain View, CA 94043, +1 (415)
	960-7300
	<1993Jan11.020401.27962@cheshire.oxy.edu>
	<1993Jan11.033729.13769@eff.org>
	<1993Jan11.124919.16849@cheshire.oxy.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:27:50 GMT


In article <1993Jan11.124919.16849@cheshire.oxy.edu> rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney) writes:
>But if Paglia's not in some way justifying rape, then her
>remarks are banal.  But that's what I'm saying in my other reply.

   Having just thrashed my way through this entire thread, I am left
with the impression that you think that (and I'll state this in the
negative) acts that are not justifiable are not inevitable.  No one in
this thread has suggested that rape of any kind is justifiable.  But
culpability is not some kind of moral zero-sum game.  The rapist
should be held responsible for a rape, and should bear the entire
brunt of severe punishment.  Nobody in this thread seems to disagree
with that.  The point Paglia makes is that this does not entirely
absolve the victim of responsibility--everyone must act to avoid being
victims.  It is futile to expect that crime can be significantly
reduced by changing the criminals alone.


--
Brian Hanafee                         Advanced Decision Systems
bhanafee@ads.com                      1500 Plymouth Street
(415) 960-7300                        Mountain View, CA 94043-1230
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: Clapshot (was: Celebrating McGonagall)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 11 JAN 93 03:50:47 GMT

I wrote:

>>Well, we did not have a roaring fire on the evening of our First Annual 
>>McGonagall Night, but we did have haggis, roast beast, clapshot 

Joann Zimmerman wrote:

>Wot the blithering hell is "clapshot"? Sounds thoroughly unhealthy. And 
>it doesn't appear in my OED. 

Clapshot is a side dish that consists of equal amounts of mashed potato and
yellow turnip whipped together, with sauteed minced onion and chopped parsley
added (and butter and milk and salt and pepper).  It's not that unhealthy if
you go easy on the butter and milk, which we don't.  Recipes for it appear in
_The Scots Kitchen_ by F. Marian McNeill, _The Scottish Cookbook_ by Sheila
Macrae, and _Modern Ways With Traditional Scottish Recipes_ by Rosalie Gow. 
The OED had better get its act together. 

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kate@cactus.org (Katherine M. Catmull)
Subject: Re: Celebrating McGonagall
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:25:32 GMT

In article <3JAN93.03253274@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>John McCarthy writes:
>
>>Certain aspects of McGonagall's verse are bad, his meter, his rhymes 
>>and his use of cliches.  I think there is something left that is 
>>pretty good, but I can't put my finger on it.  
>
>Sincerity.
>


I don't think that's it. I've read (and, in my early adolecense, written)
some horribly sincere poetry that wasn't anything so delightful as
this stuff.

It's something else, but what . . . 

Kate



-- 
- - - - - - - -
kate@cactus.org
Be the voice of night and Florida in my ear.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: Computers not a substitute for books
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 03:06:01 GMT

Miriam Nadel  writes:

>I think some of the reason for increased interest in storytelling 
>is that it's rare in our culture for people to be thoroughly listened to.  
>I feel a certain power in holding an audience and I feel an astonishing 
>intimacy with people whose stories I've heard.  This even applies to people 
telling folk tales and literary stories as different people will tell the same 
>story very differently.

>Miriam Nadel

	This is very interesting. I had no idea that storytelling was
a growing art. That is one of healthiest signs of culture I've heard
lately. I certainly think you're on to something with your thought
that it's rare for people to be throughly listened to. This is what I
meant by attenuated abilities to listen. I see it at work all the
time. I can be giving someone an answer to a question that they asked
me(!) and I can see they've stopped listening half way through the
answer. My own interest in this is in the decline of another ancient
art of storytelling - political rhetoric. Once upon a time politicians
wrote their own speeches and so knew what they wanted to say. Now
speeches are written by committees and the result is a long and boring
laundry list of promises. 

Keith




--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy)
Subject: Why Civil Rights? (was Legal theory, Homophobia, and the Bible)
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 13:51:05 GMT

Sean Philip Engelson wrote:
>Something along the lines of "No discrimination in employment shall be
>permitted except regarding necessary qualifications for the job
>specified." (In appropriate legalese, of course).  The question of
>relevance in discrimination suits is properly left to the courts.

And Michael Siemon adds:
>A totally admirable statement, as far as I can see.  One might want
>to reflect for a while on WHY so obvious and clearly equitable a
>formulation is the LAST thing one would expect in American politics.
>[...]
>And yet, the positive statements of our Bill of Rights, and other
>foundations of our legal system, somehow have NOT historically been
>read in a way that extends "equal protection" where it seem obvious
>to me it should go.  The need to say "No! that is NOT an exception!"
>is what has driven civil rights legislation in my lifetime.  

Bingo.  There is admittedly something a little strange about
having to outline civil rights, simply because they seem so
obvious.... to those who can see the point of them.

If you don't think that there whould be a list of basic rights
for all people, or if you don't think that civil rights advocacy
has improved the way humans are treated in North America, just
that in our parent's lifetime, there was racial segregation in
buses, hotels, etc.  

No, I don't think racial tensions have disappeared.  But you're
crazy if you argue that the effects of those tensions on racial
minorities have not lessened with the help not only of
legislation, but of increasing people's awareness of the problem
*through legislation*.

I don't think it's possible to eradicate bigotry, because
unhappily, fear and ignorance will always be a part of humans.  I
do think it's imperative to eradicate as many of the associated
problems of bigotry that we can deal with.  To me, that happens
to include thinking that a person should not be fired on the
basis of her or his sexual orientation (and even extends itself
to more pervasive, nebulous areas, such as the right of any two
besotted people to hold hands on a street without having someone
else make gagging noises or decide to pummel them).

-desiree

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:32:26 GMT

	I find the continuing controversy over Johnson's book very odd.
The book seems to me quite clearly the book-length equivalent of tabloid
journalism, and such books are almost entirely lacking in merit or interest 
unless they generate something preposterous or malign enough to be
noteworthy (as the Weekly World News does routinely and so excels its more
staid brethren such as the Enquirer).  In my quick reading, I saw Johnson 
doing nothing of the sort--he merely raked quickly through the usual tales
told about his subjects.

	The man wants imagination, I think:


			COUNT TOLSTOY A CANNIBAL

		B. BRECHT WAS HITLER'S NAZI LOVE SLAVE

		NORMAN MAILER IN SEX TRIANGLE WITH SPACE ALIENS

Now *there's* a book about intellectuals.
-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: cass8806@elan.rowan.edu (Kyle Cassidy)
Subject: Re: Bookstore Anecdote
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:34:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.182430.1347@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>
>>I think more bookstores should be like Borders and have employees
>>pass tests before being hired.
>>
>
>	Really? Is this true? And if it is, isn't it discriminatory?
>
>	Keith

it's true, but it's hardly discriminatory. if you owned a garage and were 
hiring mechanics, you'd certianly want to hire somebody who knew how to fix 
cars. etc....
From: pas@kepler.unh.edu (Paul A Sand)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 12 Jan 1993 02:45:17 GMT
Organization: University of New Hampshire
NNTP-Posting-Host: kepler.unh.edu

ps: Paul Sand
sp: Steve Pope

ps: Given Roger's previous comment of "Sieg heil to you too, pal," I
    think it's obvious that he's far less interested in serious
    discussion than is Mike Morris.

sp: Having been on usenet for 10 years, I think I can add some insight
    here.

sp: The fact that Roger came up with a "Sieg heil" comment has
    absolutely no bearing on whether he is serious about the discussion.
    It simply means his comments must be calibrated differently than,
    for example, Mike Morris's.

sp: Now if *Morris* had said "Sieg heil, buddy" to a fellow netter, that
    would be probably a once per decade event, and I would be tempted to
    believe he had finally lost his generally excellent grasp on logic
    and crossed over into the realm of the emotional. But coming from
    Roger, I view it simply as colorful interjection.

Tsk tsk.  I've been reading for only five years, so pardon me, Grampa
Steve, but if you're trying to imply that Roger's postings have
*consistently* relied on such vile bluster as illustrated above, I must
state: that hasn't been my observation.

But maybe he staged these muck-throwing exhibitions more often
pre-1988. If so, then I stand corrected.
-- 
-- Paul A. Sand           | Cogito ergo I'm right and you're wrong.
-- Univ. of New Hampshire |     (Blair P. Houghton)
-- pas@kepler.unh.edu     |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: aaiken@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Andrew C. Aiken)
Subject: Re: The WORST novel ever written?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:42:44 GMT

In <C0qu3q.D8M@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

>Are you under the impression that Chernyshevsky (d. 1889) was a Soviet author?

>The book was reprinted by Virago a few years back, as part of a sequence of
>reprints of books by 19th century male feminist writers.  I haven't read it
>but might get round to it one day.  Chernyshevsky was one of the Nihilists,
>so it's hardly suprising he can still make the new right orthodoxy see
>purple.  (The original condemnation quoted here was from the ultra-right
>CIA-funded propagandist Robert Conquest, from who you'd expect a kneejerk
>condemnation of anything Lenin liked enough to steal from.)


	Nature, I am told, is more ironic still than Man, but I would not
venture such a wild claim without more evidence.  Look upon this: Chernyshevsky
fancied that he was a Nihilist, when he, in fact, feared the abyss more even
than the commonest stockbroker or dentist.  The incarnation of his Nihilism
is Gulag.  The Nihilists were opposed to the pre-revolution anarchy, precisely
because it was conservative and spiritual.  Ex nihil nihilo fit?  Not on your
life, buddy.  Lenin lifted a page or two from Chernyshevsky, and millions of
Jews and anarchists died of paper cuts.  They were, no doubt, blocking the
shining path to Utopia.
	  
		  
Andrew Aiken

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books

In rec.arts.books, arc2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (AMY CHARLES) writes:

> James Fuller writes,
> 
>     "COMPUTERS ARE NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BOOKS."
> 
> I've been having a running argument with the Project Gutenberg folks
> (bit.gutenberg, I think) about this.  Aside from problems with aesthetics and
> transferability, digital text makes the most egalitarian of media the most
> classbound.  Imagine a world where almost all text is published digitally.
> To read it, then, you have to *buy* a reader, even if you're borrowing free
> material.  If you're too poor to buy a reader, you're out of luck.  Sure,
> maybe public libraries will have them.  (Assuming we still have public
> libraries, at that point.)  But then you're at the mercy of ever-shrinking
> library hours....already, here in Allentown, PA, it's difficult for a working
> adult to use the public libraries in the summer.

Why do you make the somewhat absurd assumption that libraries would not
check out readers???  Video stores rent VCRs.

Also Book readers will likely get to be fairly cheap, one might think.
If they were as cheap as a walkman (entirely possible in my opinion),
they would probably be within the budget of anyone who cared to read.

doug
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction (Was: 92 in rabreview)
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:15:28 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <13766@optilink.COM>, brad@optilink.COM (Brad Yearwood) writes:
> Had a person comment "your place looks like the aftermath of an explosion in
> a library, with laundry added"?  Guilty.

He's LYING.  An explosion, at least, would have reduced the number of
tons of books per square meter of floor space, by moving most of them
outside.

Hey, I went to a party in Brad's complex shortly after Brad moved in, 
and Brad's neighbors (who didn't know that I knew Brad) could only talk 
about how many hundreds of boxes of books were unloaded by the moving
companies.

> Brad Yearwood    brad@optilink.com   {uunet, pyramid}!optilink!brad


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis)
Subject: Child molestation & celibacy (was: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 13:49:30 GMT
Organization: Austerlitz, Gershovitz, and Carmichael

Francis Muir writes:

   [on the question of whether the Church's all male, celibate clergy
    encourages child molestation...]
>
>I thought I had worded this with some care. I am sayiny that enforced celibacy
>and and all-male clergy encoureges child molestation. I am not saying that
>the Church directly encourages the practise.
>

However you word it, it's still boloney.
-- 
Jeff Davis <davis@keats.ca.uky.edu> 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:59:37 GMT

Dani Zweig writes:

Fairly early in the CS curriculum, one of our professors announced that
he had two pieces of invaluable advice to prepare us for the world Out There:

1. Learn to type.

2. Don't let *anyone* know you can type.

	
	In my high school days, before I stopped attending classes, I
sopped attending *in* classes, consequently, I was transferred out of
the arts & sciences matriculation program and placed in the business
matriculation program. As I remember the deal was both groups *could*
go to university but the probabilities of the latter were problematic.
So the powers that be thought it wise to make sure they had some
skills to tide them over. The upshot was that I had to take a typing
class. I hated every minute of it, couldn't stand the repetition,
couldn't the teacher; however, now I think that it and an accounting
class were the only useful things I took in high school. The other
valuable things I've learnt have either been from life or at
university. And being able to whip out those essays on the typewriter!
Dani's professor had a good point about not letting others know.

	Keith

--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith)
Subject: Re: fictional or not, women, cross-dressing
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 20:42:29 GMT

Danny-Boy writes:
	
	Someone send me suggestions for readings with cross dressing woman,
	fictional or non, perhaps even a reference to a journal study. 
	
	I am working on thinking about writing a book. Don't want to be too
	fanciful.



Don't forget the scene in _Huckleberry Finn_ where Huck dresses as
a girl and is found out by a woman who tosses him a spool of thread.
He closes his knees to catch it and is told that a girl would open
her knees to catch it in the skirt.  (Don't think she has to think
of England while opening her knees in this case.  :-) )

I think the movie "Some Like It Hot" is based on a book, although
I haven't read it.  1920's when two men who witness gangsters killing
someone hide out in an all woman jazz band.



William Sburgfort Smith
Intel, SSD
From: stevem@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Steve McGowan (RA))
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Rasputin and Cajun References.
Date: 7 Jan 93 11:56:04 GMT
Organization: Computing Sci, Glasgow Univ, Scotland



The title says it all. Anyone know any good books/references/etc on i) the life and
times of Rasputin, that great Russian character, and ii) the origins, history and 
culture of the Louisianna Cajuns?



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

			Ye'll no be paying for the fush.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: John Sayles' Fiction
Organization: Clark University
Date: 11 JAN 93 03:52:35 GMT

Steve Dyer wrote:

>I was expecting a lot from [City of Hope], given all the favorable press 
>when it came out (what, two years ago or so.)  What I found instead 
>was a completely servicable made-for-TV movie that was in every other 
>respect undistinguished.  At no point did any of the main characters 
>seem real to me; they all manifested a kind of lifeless phoniness which 
>came from the screenwriter's condescension, drawn as either stereotypes or 
>earnest proto-saints.  

_City of Hope_ is a strange movie, an allegory of sorts set in a mythical
city.  You could view the characters as stereotypes, in that they're intended
to represent whole classes of people (as in Spike Lee's _Do the Right
Thing_).  But I didn't find any of them lifeless or phony -- the writing and
the acting were too good for that -- and I certainly didn't think Sayles was
condescending at any time.  That's not his style.  

It was an ambitious undertaking on a low budget, and I think he was largely
successful.  Sorry you didn't like it.

Personally, I prefer his most recent film, _Passion Fish_, since it's an in-
depth character study, and I tend to enjoy those more.  Besides, David
Strathairn is cute in jeans and a grease cap.  (You know me, I'm just a red-
blooded American het girl.) 

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books