From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: legal question re anonymity online
Organization: The World
	<BZS.93Jan10152122@world.std.com> <C0o6wJ.57J@ddsw1.mcs.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 06:55:23 GMT


From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) [responding to me]
>>You get into a disagreement with mickey_mouse@bell. MM threatens to
>>nail your cat to your door. You don't give it any mind (but you save
>>the msg.) You get home that night and there's your cat nailed to the
>>door. So you call Bell and say "hey, who is this mickey_mouse guy I
>>want to report him/her/it to the police...etc". And they say "damned
>>if we know, he's one of those anonymous users you sued us over not
>>having last year so we changed our policy."
>
>Now wait a second.
>
>TRUE anonymous user IDs are going to be damn difficult if BELL is taking
>money for this service.

That's not true Karl, I assume you have heard of cash? Or cash
equivalents that have no name other than the payee on them?

Trust me on this one.

>PSEUDONYMS, commonly known in the publishing trade as "pen names" are a
>different matter entirely.  I have allowed these on my system (MCSNet) at
>times if I feel there is a good reason for it.  That "good reason" does not
>include the fact that someone feels like picking electronic fights.
>
>However, I know who those people are.  If you show up at my door with a
>court order which demands the release of that information you'll get a 
>copy of the subscriber's signup form.

Right, fine, I agree on this point.

>Therefore, there isn't a TRUE anonymous user capability.

Well, no (QNED).

>>>Not for me; my feelings about this are based largely on personal 
>>>experience.
>>
>>I was referring to the concept of getting justice from the courts for
>>something like you described.
>
>Which is certainly available if you have a "pen name", OR if you have a real
>name.

Wow, people don't follow the threads: I WAS (ahem, pardon me for
shouting), I was referring to the fact that the civil court system
doesn't work, or put better, it doesn't work in the interests of the
clients. It sure makes lawyers rich tho.

See, it's a big fallacy, oh it happens, but we all postulate this
system of justice where if we're right and they're wrong we sue and we
get our due. Well, sorry, there ain't no Santa Claus, and there ain't
this one either. You're lucky if you walk away with your regular
hourly rates for the time you put in. Hell, you're lucky if you don't
find you OWE after a judgement in your favor.

What usually (or at least too damn often) happens is that *your*
lawyer bilks *you* out of a few thousand to go thru the motions for a
while and then tells you, so sorry, it's not worth pursuing further,
better give it up before you throw more good money after bad.

That's where the gold is (for the attorneys), you can't judge his or
her work really (but a judge can, and that's where s/he's not letting
you get in front of with his/her work, too risky), it's anyone's guess
whether you got good advice for your $5K or whatever, it'll cost you
another $5K to get everything reviewed by another attorney if you
don't like the answer and more to challenge it, and you gotta put the
cash up, and besides if you go to another attorney they'll charge you
$500 to tell you that the other lawyer probably did a responsible job
and *this* isn't worth pursuing (fell for it again, dincha suckah!),
take a deep breath and get on with your life (i.e. you've been
plucked, learn to live with it.)

If they do go to court on contingency then that's because they're
investing *their* money in your case. You can kiss the settlement
goodbye, it's *their* merchandise (oh they'll pay you a few bucks for
your troubles, lessee, we got $50K, hmm, after contingency fees,
expenses, etc, lessee, you got $5K, oh, that's what you put up in the
first place? Well, hey, didn't cost you a thing, and you got that
bastard, that's what was important RIGHT? right.)

[Anyhow, the rest of your note works forward from the assumption that
there cannot be cash-only anonymous accounts.]

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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