HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ahasham@skat.usc.edu (Allen Hasham)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Vegas trip
Date: 6 Nov 1992 14:36:40 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: skat.usc.edu

In article <1992Nov6.192721.26260@mprgate.mpr.ca> levesque@mprgate.mpr.ca (Steve Levesque) writes:
>Hi there, I'm going to Vegas on the weekend of Nov 13 and I just have 
>a few questions.
>
>Are there any good shows/concerts on that weekend? I know the Hollyfield - 
>Bowe fight is on, but are there any tickets left? How much? Any other shows/
>concerts?
>
>Where are there good buffets etc?
>
     A good show to see is Sigfried & Roy ( excuse the speeling ) its at
   the Mirage. Good show but expensive. I also went to a comedy show at
   Ballys it I think its " Watch a Star Rising " for the price it was good.

   as for Buffets I would  go to Golden Nugget if you end up down town.
   I think its one of the best in Vegas

   al..


Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: robp@landru.network.com (Rob Peglar)
Subject: Re: Casinos in Minneapolis Area
Reply-To: robp@landru.network.com
Organization: Network Systems Corporation 
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 22:06:06 GMT

In article 7Ds@ucunix.san.uc.edu, kaufman@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Stephen A. Kaufman) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.210526.11793@ns.network.com> robp@landru.network.com writes:
>> All the houses in Minnesota (that I've seen) use the same rules as TI.
>
>Not so!  Mystic Lake (Little 6) and TI dealer stands on soft 17.  All
>others hit.

Not so!  It depends on the table at both houses.  Some have S17, some
have H17.

Rob


---
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This mail/post only reflects the opinions of the poster (author), 
and in no manner reflects any corporate policy, statement, opinion,
or other expression by Network Systems Corporation.
From: jpucket@eis.calstate.edu (James Gerard Puckett)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Florida Lottery info
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:58:24 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

If anyone has any published information on the Florida Lottery and it
effects that they could mail me, please do so.


-- 
+--+--+--+--+-----------+-----------+------------+------------+--+--+--+--+
|__|__|__|__|  Life: Rod Puckett                              |__|__|__|__|
|  |  |  |  |        Tifton, Ga (912) 386-8734                |  |  |  |  |
|--|--|--|--|                                                 |--|--|--|--|
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Unusual bets
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:51:46 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

In article <BxGI3s.184@cs.bham.ac.uk> ard@cs.bham.ac.uk (Antoni Diller) writes:

>In the UK you can walk into some bookmakers' and ask them to give
>you odds on almost anything; I recently heard that a man asked
>a bookmaker to give him odds on Michael Jackson being the same
>person as LaToya Jackson.  After a little research he was given odds
>of 500 to 1 and the bookmaker came to an agreement with him about
>how to asses if the two were really one and the same person.

a seasonal favorite is which day it will first snow in London.

I have heard of bets on discovery of extraterrestrial life.

Roulette's too cheap for some people!

Also I hear that Ladbrokes (one of our larger bookmakers) got hit badly by 
the 4-0 result for Manchester City (soccer) last Saturday.  they gave 50-1 
and it was snapped up by loads of people who thought it worth a few quid on 
the off-chance.  that'll teach them to put betting offices in soccer grounds

        Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty

  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44|0)61-275-6033  
  D.Budd@mcc.ac.uk                                          fax 6040
From: cantor@star.enet.dec.com (Dave Cantor)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: LV recommedations requested...
Date: 10 Nov 92 02:18:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: engage.1992Nov10.022415.650
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation



In article <1992Nov9.201259.644@fibers>, mbuck@fibers (Michael D. Buck) writes...
>In article <JJ.92Nov6084829@presto.slc.mentorg.com>, jj@slc.mentorg.com (Jeff Jennings) writes:
>>>
>>>A question on strategy adj... how are they ranked in order of importance
>>>for the first 12 or so... (I remeber reading some time back that the
>>>first 12 give you about 90% of the advantage.)
>> 
>> 
>> Insure, correlation 0.76, gain 141.16
>> Hit 16 v X, correlation -0.55, gain 53.12
>> Hit 15 v X, correlation -0.76, gain 36.06
>> Split X,X v 6, correlation 0.93, gain 25.04
>> Split X,X v 5, correlation 0.96, gain 24.04
> 
>I hadn't realized that splitting XX was so large a part of the profitability of
>counting!  I haven't yet actually split XX, partly due to not having had
>enough of a plus count to warrant it, and partly because of Pit Critter
>Paranoia.
> 
>I know that BJ dealers and pit critters often bemoan players they've
>had at their tables earlier in the day who split XX.  I have assumed
>that they do this since they want to appear sympathetic (during
>typical dealer/player banter) to the typical BJ player, who hates
>to be at a table with a player who splits XX.  But, I've always
>believed that dealers and pit critters know _very well_ that
>splitting XX is a very easy way to spot a counter.
> 
>Is this actually true?  

It sure looks that way, doesn't it?

>If so, how do rec.gamblers handle XX vs 6
>with an astronomical true count?  

By ignoring it.

>Are you forced to give up the
>advantage you've gotten from counting by making some kind of cover
>play/bet to throw off the pit critter?  

Yes.

>Remember the mild commotion
>that happens at the table when you split XX.  The dealer will quiz
>you as to whether you _really_ want to do that.  The other players
>will moan and whine about it.  The pit _will_ notice it.  How can a
>counter make effective use of this play while not shouting to the
>pit of his/her presence?

No way, IMNSOHA.  If they weren't sure you were counting cards before,
they'll be strongly positive :-) after you split tens!  Cover?  Maybe
split tens occasionally when the count is negative (but against the
same dealer's cards) to try to make it look like you do it fairly often
(and, in fact, you WOULD be doing it fairly often!).  Yecch.

Twenty is a great hand.  Stick with it.  It is very likely you'll
win the hand anyway.

(Shall I tell you the story of the time I was dealing blackjack and
a guy at my table split tens (well, ten-valued cards) THIRTEEN times
in one round?)

-- --
 Dave C.                          cantor@star.enet.dec.com
 Digital Equipment Corp., Nashua, NH  03062, USA
  The views expressed herein are my own, except where attributed to 
  someone else.  They are neither the opinion of, nor the responsibility 
  of, Digital Equipment Corporation.
From: bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: roulette
Date: 9 Nov 1992 01:50:46 GMT
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
NNTP-Posting-Host: alfalfa.intel.com

In article <1992Nov8.220910.7749@oswego.Oswego.EDU> yacs3500@oswego.Oswego.EDU (Brandon Leib) writes:
>Any comments?

Everything you say is exactly correct and quite a lot like
what's in the FAQ for this group and has been known since
two days after the roulette wheel was invented.

				--Blair
				  "Look, ma, no hands!"
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Book - historical, uk
Date: 11 Nov 92 10:17:25 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

I'm currently reading a great book for anybody interested in the history of 
gambling (Britain only though).  It's called:
A Bit Of A Flutter: Popular Gambling and English Society, c.1823-1961
by Mark Clapson, published by Manchester University Press, ISBN0-7190-3436-1

It covers horses, dogs, pigeons, bowls, coins, cards, lotteries, dice, etc, 
and the time span goes from when bookmakers first appeared on the scene (as 
opposed to straight bets between people) right up until bookies were allowed 
to have shops in British high-streets.  It covers so much that it cannot 
give any great detail on any particular subject, but it examines the general 
betting milieu very well, and shows that the 'lower orders' were never in 
real danger of ruination by gambling as so many moralists claim, and also 
points up the hypocrisy of the rich who seemed to think it was ok for them 
to bet but that the presence of the working class somehow degraded sports.
Some fascinating details

Distribution in USA and Canada:
St Martins Press, Inc., 175 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY10010, USA

        Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty

  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44|0)61-275-6033  
  D.Budd@mcc.ac.uk                                          fax 6040
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: hallyb@globbo.enet.dec.com (John Hallyburton)
Subject: Re: Playing Double-up in roulette
Summary: Friday the 13th
Keywords: jump out known exit
Organization: Twin Peaks Municipal Software Works
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 13:16:21 GMT


>>    The Centigram Quad X5 Matrix....details on this system can be
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>Yo Jacob!  I thought the casinos got together and bought the rights to this
>system... to avoid losing their shirts if it ever got to market.  

A friend of a friend was caught betting CQX5M -- casino had him on videodtape.
They told him he was welcome to continue to play but only if he flat bet.
I think it was the Flamingo.  He took the hint and left, up only $200 or so. 
At that rate he could be booted out of every casino in Vegas and not recover
his costs...
--
						"The Smart Money was on Goliath"
						John Hallyburton 43 55'N 71 45'W
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: bhag@etn.ericsson.se (Boerge Haga 2634)
Subject: Strategy for playing Black Jack (FAQ?)
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AS, Oslo, Norway
Distribution: rec.gambling
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:46:43


Is there an FAQ that gives suggestions on strategy for playing Black Jack.
What I mean is something in the way of "if the dealer starts with a card
between 2 and 6 you should double your bet, because the dealer is then more
likely to end over 21."

If somebody have any information (in the form of an FAQ or other) they
can send to me about this topic, It will be appreciated. Pointers to 
such files would also help.

This is the first time I read this newsgroup, so I couldn't see any FAQs.

--
Boerge Haga
Ericsson AS, Norway
e-mail:etnbhag@etnxb.eua.ericsson.se
From: shimizu@unix.SRI.COM (Dan Shimizu)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: LV recommedations requested...
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:36:02 GMT
Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, California

Ok, it's that time of year again, I'm heading out to LV this
weekend (11/6 - 11/8) and I want to find out conditions and
locations for single deck games and low stakes. Ideally I would like
to play at $1 single deck tables with strip rules. My puny bankroll
can't handle the $5 tables (I would only have 80 units!.)

Any suggestions?

Oh, I do count (Hi-Lo w/ some strategy adj.)

A question on strategy adj... how are they ranked in order of importance
for the first 12 or so... (I remeber reading some time back that the
first 12 give you about 90% of the advantage.)

I'm using:

Insurance
16 vs 10
15 vs 10
10,10 vs 5
10,10 vs 6
10 vs 10

I think this ranking is from an article named "Illustrious 18.", but
I don't have the rest of it.

Michael Hall: So you're know using Wong Halves? Do you have a new
version of "How to Beat Single Deck Blackjack" out covering the
use of Wong Halves and strategy tables?

Last question...where can I get the latest FAQ?

Thanks,
DAN

shimizu@unix.sri.com
From: price@chuckles.Eng.Sun.COM (Chuck Price)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Value Rent A Car
Date: 11 Nov 1992 01:16:33 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: price@chuckles.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: chuckles

In article 24095@cbfsb.cb.att.com, lance@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (lance.r.ogasawara) writes:
>
>Sorry to clutter up the newsgroup with this but I didn't know
>what else to do...
>
>Does anyone have a phone number for Value Rent A Car? They were
>recommended to me by a reader of this newsgroup but I can't seem
>to find them in my local phone book.
>
>Lance


And you work for AT&T??? (address is ...att.com)

Try dialing 411. If that doesn't work, try 800-555-1212.

Sheesh!


Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: erb@world.std.com (ed r baker)
Subject: Re: Holyfield vs. Bowe
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:01:57 GMT


Holyfield -$150  Bowe +$120

For the gambling impaired, bet $150 to win $100 on Holyfield, or bet $100
to win $120 on Bowe.

I'm betting Bowe.  Holyfield has looked really bad in his previous two
fights.
From: chrisi@spock.usc.edu (Chris Irwin)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: One day to Vegas
Date: 9 Nov 1992 15:06:34 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: spock.usc.edu
Summary: craps odds

In article <92311.120322NU035609@NDSUVM1.BITNET> R.C.(Chuck) Solly <NU035609@NDSUVM1.BITNET> writes:
>
>In article <1992Nov6.161810.9895@midway.uchicago.edu>, stylian@aramis.uucp
>(Philip Stylianos) says:
>>
>>1) Are craps tables below $5 minumum plentiful? Where's the nearest to my     ?
>>hotel
>>
>There is at least one .25 cent craps game downtown and I think
>there is one next to Circus

Downtown, the Union Plaza has $.25 craps and offers 2X odds (they
used to have 10X on that game but apparently it wasn't profitable
enough for them and it has been discontinued).  Another downtown
casino (4 Queens?) has $.25 craps but only on certain days of the week
between specific hours. Curiously, they are not offered on weekends ;-).

>>4) Double odds on craps (I've seen 3X, too) are plentiful in AC. And LV? If   ,
>>not
>>   where are they?
>
>Quite a few places have double odds. There are several downtown with triple
>and I THINK the Frontier has 10x.

As of Saturday 11/7 Frontier still has 10X and a few other places on
the strip advertise 5X odds.

>Chuck
>


-- 
|     _____  chrisi@spock.usc.edu| Protect YOUR Second Amendment Rights --    |
|    /       /            '  ____| Support the National Rifle Association!!   |
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Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: weinstoc@sei.cmu.edu (Chuck Weinstock)
Subject: Las Vegas Advisor Party?
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:42:56 GMT


Besides me, are any of you folks planning on attending the free party that
Harrah's is throwing for subscribers to the Las Vegas Advisor on December 20,
and 21?

I'm planning on arriving the night of December 19th and taking advantage of
the free room at the Stardust, then move to Harrah's for two nights to take
advantage of the free rooms during the party.  I'll probably move again for
two more free nights at the Flamingo before heading home for Christmas.

Question for those of you who've been there before Christmas before.  Is Las
Vegas as dead as I think it must be from all of the free room offers?  I
suppose it doesn't matter so much with respect to blackjack, craps, etc., but
if the live poker games are going to be chock full of locals that week, I'm
not sure it will be as much fun (read: profitable!)

Chuck



Chuck Weinstock				weinstock@sei.cmu.edu
Software Engineering Institute		(412) 268-7719
Carnegie Mellon University		(412) 268-5758 (Fax)
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: slick@netcom.com (Martin Veneroso)
Subject: Re: Computer's in casinos
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:08:03 GMT

howard@tybalt.ultra.com (Howard Simonson) writes:

>Well, I'm always walking around Reno in my multi-pocketed leather jacket,
>and typically, my Sharp Wizard handheld doodad is in my inside pocket, and
>I have yet to be "yanked and frisked" or whatever.  And I'm sure I'm putting
>out some RF from the thing.

I always (well, almost) have my Casio BOSS organizer in my breast pocket
when I'm in casinos, and I've never gotten a second look (for that!)
except when I whipped it out (the Casio!) in the Peppermill in Reno to
take down the information on Double Down Stud, the new game they were
spreading.  I did get the attention of a couple of critters as I was
typing away, but one of them looked over my shoulder and nothing was
said to me about it.

Speaking of Double Down Stud, I don't recall anyone following up to my
post about the game.  Did I miss something, or is it just that obviously
pointless?
-- 
s/Martin Veneroso
slick@netcom.com
From: coreyi@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Corey Imsdahl)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:10:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Playing Double-up in roulette
Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA
Newsgroups: rec.gambling

In rec.gambling, jacob@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jacob Jin) writes:

>   catch on to what you are doing! Make it known you are there to 
>    "have fun" -- if they catch on for even a second you are using
>    the Martingale or one of it's modernized variants(such as
>    The Centigram Quad X5 Matrix....details on this system can be
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yo Jacob!  I thought the casinos got together and bought the rights to this
system... to avoid losing their shirts if it ever got to market.  

If you have a copy of this system I bet :-) you could sell it for a
bundle.  There must be a bunch of professional rouletters that would 
die for such a great (sure bet) system like the 'Quad X5'.

Your methods of avoiding detection are OK, but the one I like best is just
before the ball drops, take a whole stack of chips, push them out onto 
the numbers and spill them all over the place.  Then start to gather them
and many others up.  They'll just 'know' that you're not a professional
rouletter after that manuever.

Corey   (Keep one eye on the ball and one eye on the wheel)
From: ov@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Olaf Vancura)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Boxing
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:21:02 GMT
Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA,  USA

Aaaaaaahhhhh!!

Guys, the man's name is Evander Holyfield!  Not Hollyfield, Hollywood,
or Holy!@#$.  C'mon!

Olaf
From: ibacon@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Ian Bacon)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: USA lotteries
Date: 7 Nov 1992 16:49:56 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Can anyone tell me where I can find a source of USA lotteries.

Thanks
From: mbuck@fibers (Michael D. Buck)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: LV during COMDEX
Date: 6 Nov 92 11:47:04 EST
Organization: Allied Fibers, Petersburg VA

In article <1992Nov5.171337.28106@advtech.uswest.com>, ziesman@uswest.com (Craig Ziesman) writes:
> I will be attending COMDEX the week after next.  Any 
> recommendations/advice regarding what to look for (and look out for) while 
> I'm there?  I am a low stakes (<$10/bet) BJ player.  Thanks.

Yeah.  Breathing room.

Seriously, LV is packed that week.  If you can actually play at $10
minimum bets, you probably will be able to find a table, but I suspect
you'd have a hard time finding a less-than-full $5 minimum table.
________________________________________________________________________
Michael Buck                          |
UUCP: decwrl!twwells!fibers!mbuck     |
Internet:                             |
  twwells!fibers!mbuck@decwrl.dec.com |
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Vegas Trip
In-reply-to: levesque@mprgate.mpr.ca's message of Tue, 10 Nov 92 19:35:32 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 10 Nov 92 13:50:38

In article <1992Nov10.193532.21537@mprgate.mpr.ca> levesque@mprgate.mpr.ca (Steve Levesque) writes:

> One question on the FAQ regarding Video Poker.
> In the FAQ it says:

>>  In order to have an advantage over the house, you must find a machine
>>  with a progressive jackpot that is larger that about 1750 maximum bets.
>>  ($8750 for $1 machines, $2200 for $.25 machines, $440 for $.05 machines).
>>  The level only makes the game even with the house.  The jackpot must
>>  be higher than this in order to gain an advantage.  The player's edge
>>  increases by about 1% for each addition of 750 maximum bets into the
>>  progressive jackpot.

The original numbers for "breakeven" jackpot size are correct, but the
correct figure for the change in edge is more like 1% per 330 max bets.
I will correct this for the next edition of the FAQ.

>>
>>  In order to have a 2% edge, the jackpot must be about 2500 max. bets.
>>  ($12,500 for $1 machines, $3125 for $.25 machines, $625 for $.05 machines).

This part is correct.

> Shouldn't that make 2500 max bets a 1% advantage, or does that make 1000 
> bets an even game, or am I just reading this wrong?

1000 max bets is the starting point for many progressive jackpots, and
represents a house edge of 2.2%.

> The reason I ask is I very seldom see a game where the jackpot is
>>  ($8750 for $1 machines, $2200 for $.25 machines, $440 for $.05 machines).

Yup.  VP machines are only profitable for the player about 10% of the time,
and they rarely give more than about a 2% edge to the player.

> How much does the strategy change when the jackpot is at say 1000 bets?

Not enough to worry about.
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Don't worry, I just have these harmless pocket rockets...."
From: LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Andy Lipscomb)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: One day to Vegas
Date: 7 Nov 92 21:43:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Vanderbilt University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.21

> Quite a few places have double odds. There are several downtown with triple
> and I THINK the Frontier has 10x.

The Frontier?  The only place I've ever heard of 10x odds is the Horseshoe.


Andy Lipscomb
lipscoja@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Bitnet: lipscoja@vuctrvax)
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
From: gustafso@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Brian Gustafson)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Blackjack tips for beginners/Casinos in Minneapolis
Date: 6 Nov 92 03:50:33 GMT
Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN

>>
>>For those who are wondering what the heck is a "stutter shuffle", here's
>>an excerpt from the file tracking.txt in the rec.gambling archive at
>>soda.berkeley.edu:
>>
>
>Many thanks for reminding us where to find this useful info.
>Dr. K.

Sorry to be a pain, but could someone e-mail me the correct procedure
to get into the archive?  Thanks.

-BG
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: liming@seq.uncwil.edu (Doug Liming)
Subject: BLACKJACK VEGAS / BLACKJACK/plus software
Summary: BLackjack plus software helps
Keywords: BLACKJACK
Organization: Univ. of North Carolina @ Wilmington
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 04:19:47 GMT




Hi There!

I'm cruisin to Vegas this weekend... Anyone know the hot spots for
Blackjack?  I'm interested in single deck... low limit tables.

I've been practicing my basic strategy play and card counting and
I think I've come a long way since my last trip there.  I've been using
a program called blackjack/plus.  It really is a very good/versatile
program.  I initially heard about it here on the net, and sent away for 
their demo disk.  I really liked the options it had so I bought it.. I
mean it was only 35 bucks.  It has everything in it.. like simulations,
multi deck shoes, reflex and card counting excercise, graphs my progress
and it even
evaluates my play performance and breaks it down into error ratios!
I'm really getting into the blackjack thing...

You guys must look into it...
It's made by a group called Databasics, and the address is 
1451 Whitesand Dr, Richmond VA, 23225

Anyway, I hope you guys respond in time, because I'm on my way out in
three days.  Wish me LUCK!


See ya,
DL

-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Douglas B. Liming	|  "Fear is where you tell the truth."
liming@seq.uncwil.edu	|			- Clive Barker