From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: who was in 'power' in BH (was: Re: Call It Anything but Peace)
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:20:31 GMT

stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:


>Whenever I try to do something better then to correct attempts to play with
>past and present, something like this appears:

that is to say "whenever things are presented in a way I don't like ..."
Milan, you possess the absolute knowledge. Milan, you are the wizard
about which the Balkan revolves.

>In article <BxKACt.A4z@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:

>>
>>The Bosnians are people living in Bosnia, and Hercegovians are the people
>>living in Hercegovina of orthodox, catholic, islamic, jewish confessions,
>>atheists and all others who feel BH is their country by sharing the same
>>historical and cultural heritige. So, Bosnian Croats are the Bosnians,
>>Bosnian Serbs are the Bosnians.

>So it is just a geographical notion.  Good. 

Just like Americans, Canadians etc regardless of religion, ethnic
background etc. And as long as you are tax-paying, law-abiding citizen
of Bosnia-Hercegovina. Good that we agree about something.

>>>	In the light of which I said above: Bosnian Serbs are also "Bosnians",
>>>they  didn't want to  seceede. According to the 1991 census data there are 31% 
>>>of Bosnian Serbs + 6% of those who declared themselves as Yugoslavs (which are 
>>>also  mainly  Bosnian  Serbs
>>
>>not true. Most Yugoslavs are either Slavic Muslims, the remnants of older
>>times when Muslims were not allowed to be called so by UDBA (the security
>>police). Others are from mixed marriages of all confessions.

>UDBA made up Muslims as a nation.

Wrong. Can you remember Bosniaks (islamic Bosnians) from 15th century?
Why would Serbian-run UDBA create a Muslim nation? I think (and history
shows) that it did opposite: made Muslims scare to admit.

>  You know that too well from the 
>cases of people who refused to be Muslims, like Mesa Selimovic.
>BTW, what do you think of him?  Traitor, lunatic?  

It was his right to be whatever he wanted to be. It may also
be his way of revenging to then Bosnian communist leadership.
 
>If you want to know who you are ( Bosniaks ) you should read something
>from Baron Von Kallay, a father of Bosnian Nation and A&H governer
>of Bosnia.  He wrote a book where he claimed that Bosnia is ethnically
>Serbian.  When he was appointed he banned his own book.  A&H decided
>that Muslims in Bosnia, as well as Serbs, should be separated from,
>then free, Serbia and Montenegro.  This was rather successful, taking into
>accound events that followed.

In Austro-Hungary Empire most of Bosnians felt free. As a matter of fact,
felt more free than later in the Serbian-dominated Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
Indeed, in A&H, Bosnia-Hercegovina started catching up industrially with
the Europe. Unfortunately for the Bosnians, and to the envy of 
backward-looking Serbia, that industrial and
cultural development was interrupted in 1914 when Serbian terrorist
G. Princip killed the A&H throne heir.

Nowadays Bosnia-Hercegovina looks forward for some form of
Central European economical and political association.
Help in any form from CE countries will be desperately
needed to re-build the independent BH when the war is over.

>So land-grab by Islamic landowners in occupied country is O.K.  while
>reversal under much milder conditions was not.  
>I think that legality of this move ( both on Kosovo, South Serbia and
>Bosna ) was sealed in treaty between Turkey and SHS Kingdom
>signed by Aleksandar I Karadjordjevic and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
>Some Turks reading this might be willing to provide more details. 
>The most of the land had owners that were not present at the moment, and
>that had no wish to return. 

No, land-owners were local Bosnians, given the land by Turks
in exchange for military service. How did the Serbs show up in
Knin Krajina, Croatia? By the same principle: Austria gave them
the land along the Ottoman border in exchange for a military
service. If I apply the same logic of yours as above,
then I can say that the Serbs in Knin Krajina grabbed Croatian land.
Right?
Further, are you saying that the Rizvanbegovic family that owned
a good chunk of Bosnia were Turks and not the Bosnians? The family spoke
Bosnian. So did Husein-beg Gradascevic (sp?) when he (and other Bosnian
land-owners) rebelled against increased Ottoman taxes.

>About Karadzic's son,  you should not believe
>everything they serve you as a comfort. It might be 
>a big blow when you realize that they were lying.

Can you present an evidence to the opposite?

It is not so unusual as you know very well in the case of
Mr. Draza Mihajlovic (WWII Chetnik leader, equivalent to Mr. Karadzic
+ Mr. Seselj), whose son fought against his father's forces.
Milan, can you prove opposite? I am prepared to prove my claim.

>Try to distinguish between sovereignity of the nations and 
>that of the state.  Whole thing in parliament was because of that.

Can you explain us the difference on the example of
Albanians in Kosovo in the present Serbian state?

>>However, I think Mr. Izetbegovic, in his role as the president
>>of the Slavic Mulsim party, does not represent all Bosnians of
>>islamic confession and atheists. I do recognise  him as the President
>>of Rep. of BH, representing all Bosnians.

>Sure, you are Muslim, it is normal that you think like that.  
>Serbs do not, which is also normal.

I agree with you that it is quite normal for Serbs to show
no regard to the democratically elected BH president.
It only shows how the Serbs have a very long way to go
before they embrace democracy and culture.
That's simbolic significance of the Drina river, the boundary between
BH and Serbia, between forward and backward looking ways.
In anticipation of your rebuttal on culture, let me just mention
the name of Mr. Ivo Andic, the sole Nobel prize winner
in literature from the former Yugoslav soil,
born in Travnik, Bosnia-Hercegovina.

>Milan N. Stojanovic

Senad Arnautovic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna