From: u907736@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Edmund Chia)
Subject: Re: China/Chua, KhengHwa/Re: An open letter to Emperor Akihito
Organization: University of Tasmania
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:53:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.072618.25371@leland.Stanford.EDU>, underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Aug26.062624.28583@newsroom.utas.edu.au>
> u907736@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Edmund Chia) writes:
> >...
> >The belief that there are specific characteristics associated with specific
> >races is racist and very dangerous.
> 
> I agree with this.  I too think that a racist is one
> who believes that genetics determines behavior.  For example,
> a racist is one who believes that _ethnicity_ (genetics) determines
> _culture_ (behavior).
> 
> A racist insists that Chinese-cu = Chinese-ge.
> 
> >...[Nazis believe that genetics determines behavior.]
> >" That sounds like something the Chinese themselves would have said
> >some 2000 years ago - "The barbarians are like animals, etc".
> 
> Nope.  Don't need to look back 2000 years.  The Chinese-cu, who
> are _very_ racist, believe, in _1992_, that genetics determines behavior.
> 
> In fact, here's an example.
> 
>    In article <1992Jun1.233726.27098@leland.Stanford.EDU>,
>    yongwee@leland.Stanford.EDU (Yong Wee Dennis Lee) writes:
> 
>    >Mr Joe, I just hope that you realise that you have a different set of
>    >values from that which I hold dear.
>    >...
>    >It is perversity of modern day thoughts to dissociate
>    >man from his culture...
>    >I would not even follow Mr Joe's example of distinguishing Chinese-cu and 
>    >Chinese-ge.  I think they are one and the same, and being one implies the
>    >other.
>    >...
> 
> Note that Mr. Lee is a Chinese-cu and that he insists that Chinese-ge
> and Chinese-cu are "one and the same".  Interestingly, Mr. Wilbur Pan
> (u58402@uicvm.uic.edu) believes similarly; he's argued for this idea
> over and over.
> 
> Equally interesting is that this Chinese-cu attitude is shared by
> rednecks, Klansmen, and Nazis.  Yes.  I must give Mr. Chia credit for
> noting the Nazis do also have this racist attitude.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
> Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
>                                            /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
> Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am not quite sure what you mean:
If you say that "a German-ge can be Chinese-cu", then why do you also say that 
"The truth of the matter is that Chinese-cu != Chinese-ge".

 I gather from what you are saying that there is a great deal in Chinese-culture
that you dislike, nay DESTEST/HATE. Your examples of Chinese-culture include 
murdering baby girls, over-emphasis on academic achievement, xenophobia, 
senseless killing, etc. However, I do not accept those examples as Chinese
cultural norms. 

I concede that Chinese-culture has its negative aspects, and
that a great deal of human misery is caused by adherents to these negative
aspects. One example as you rightly pointed out was infanticide caused by a
combination of Chinese-cultural lineage - which could only be perpetuated by
male children, who will then offer prayers to ancestors, become a sort of
pension-plan for aged parents, help in farming, etc - AND the policy of the
communist government in mainland China limiting one child to a family - resulting
in the infanticides you condemn. Chinese values which puts 'sons' ahead of 
'daughters' is sexist, and indirectly responsible for the infanticide but hardly
unique. Western cultural values(specifically British values) also place the
emphasis on male children, especially because of primogeniture(inheiritance through
the eldest male). As for the policy of one child per couple adopted by the
communist government to control China's exploding population - what would you
have them do? The other point to note is that Chinese-culture does not condone
the murder of baby girls, if it did, the race would have died off centuries ago.

One prevalent aspect of Chinese-culture which I believe is negative is its
predilection for xenophobia. Note the fact that not too long ago, the Chinese
referred to Caucasians as "Hong Mo Kwai"(red-haired ghosts), Malays as "Ma Lai
Kwai"(Malay ghosts), "Ke ling Kwai", "Hak Kwai", "Yap Poon Kwai", etc. And that
for the 5,000 years of Chinese civilisation prior to Western contact, any culture
that was non-Chinese was regarded as barbaric and anyone from a non-Chinese culture
was a barbarian(Incidentally, the Japanese felt the same way about the world). 
That is a regretable aspect of Chinese-culture/world view which I hope to see
changed and which I believe is changing.

There are many aspects of Chinese-culture which may be considered 'negative'.
However, Chinese-culture has a very long history and has many characteristics,
both good and bad - And IMHO only, the good outweigh the bad for much of its
history. Chinese thinking reflects the 'diversity' of Chinese-culture. There are
as many schools of Philosophies in China as there were in the Western tradition.
Confucianism which stress voluntary observance of proper behaviour - Legalism which
stress the use of coercive laws to compel 'proper behaviour' - Taoism which stress
spontanous and natural behaviour - neo-confucianism(IMHO, the bane of China) which
stress strict compliance which the traditions of early confucianism. Chinese-culture
reflected in art also highlights these competiting intellectual traditions within
the broad reference group known as Chinese-culture - the nature-emphasis and free
flowing brushstrokes of Taoist art and the 'disciplined' technique oriented art of
neo-confucians. Note also the values stressed in Chinese folk-culture, the glorification
of Yei-Fei who was taught loyalty to his country by mother, the minister(whose name
I can't remember) who committed suicide in protest against corruption, the other minister
who worked so hard on a dam to protect the peasants from flooding that he did not set
foot into his own home though he passed it on many occassions during the course of
his duties. Other values include respect for elders which is expressed by deference to
them, heeding their advice, and caring for their welfare - the importance of the welfare 
of the family(which has priority over one's own welfare) - respect for the educated - etc.

I acknowledge that some of these values could be and have been carried to excess. e.g. the
emphasis on education being reduced to rote-learning(especially by neo-confucians). It could
also take the form of excessive pressure on the child. However, this latter phenomenon is
not unique to the Chinese or their culture - the Japanese also tend to place excessive demands
on their children leading to suicides, as do some Anglo-Celtic Americans(i.e. if "Dead Poet's
Society" is an accurate reflection of American life).

Moreover, no cultural tradition is free from blemish - Nazism is as much a part of European
intellectual traditions as Liberalism - The notion of the 'White Man's burden' and some
forms of social Darwinism were evry bit as racist and derogative towards other cultures as
anything the Chinese ever had. The 'witch-burnings' in which young women accused of
witch-craft and their 'cohorts' were burned alive OR the Inquisition where men and women were
put to torture in the name of religion both took place in the context of the prevailing
'western' culture of the time, yet I would hardly measure western culture by those examples,
just as I would not consider infanticide to be a norm of Chinese culture.

Perhaps, the argument is that in this day and age, Western-culture is superior to Chinese-culture.
However, on what basis is this argument posited. In the U.S.A., a Grand Dragon of the KKK is in
government, African-Americans riot in the streets of L.A. in protest against a culture which
they allege disadvantage them, Skin-heads in Germany burn and destroy to keep Germany for German-ge
and German-cu. In one of his earlier posts, Dwight claims to have measured Chinese-culture by Western
standards and found it detestable - However, I doubt is Western-culture could live up to Western ideals.,
no culture can. On the other hand, Chinese cultural values like respect for elders, hard work, family
would not be found wanting by most measures, including those of middle America. 

Edmund
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