From: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Ralphie
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:36:19 GMT
Reply-To: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago, Dept of Molecular Genetics

In article <1992Apr12.194048.4824@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:

>"Ralphie", if this is his real name, is a person who is trying to use 
>scientific arguments and quotes from other people to prove that the 
>Holocaust did not happen. This obviously angered a lot of you. 
>I will not comment on the rest of his article simply because we 
>already argued about one part before, The history of Palestine, and
>my ignorance about the rest of the article.

It's not just this.  We know what the source of his propaganda is,
and it is white-supremicist, anti-Semicit hate groups.
And the quotes are out of context.  They really aren't 'scientific'
arguments at all; as the people who write these articles do not
subscribe to the standards of academic scholarship accepted by 
the academic community.  (e.g. quoting out of context).
These articles have been condemnend by the American Historical Association,
the Duke Univeristy Department of History, and the newspapers of many
univeristies.  It's propaganda and everybody knows it.

>So, what I was trying to point out is that one should not rely on an 
>author "X" who wrote this, and There is a picture of Hitler and the Mufti.

That author was me.  And I use my real name, and I don't post stuff
from hate groups, and many people considered me to be reliable.  I also
answer questions that are posed in e-mail or posted, and I apologize or
retract statements that are incorrect or offensive.  I offered
to fax that picture to anyone who wanted, and also the transcript of the
meeting.  And Brendan and others said they had seen the picture and read
the transcript.  Do not compare me or Brendan to Ralph.  We both know that 
Ralph represents a white-supremicist hate group, and that he doesn't answer 
questions or use his real name, and he has no credibility.  I find this
comparison quite offensive.  I hope you have more respect for me than
you do for Ralph; I'm pretty sure everyone on the net does.  
I'm not considere to be either a liar, a propagandist, or someone motivated 
by hatred.  

>One can argue, there was a picture of Chamberlin and Hitler too... Also
>at the time when there was massive immigration from Germany to Palestine,
>it is very possible that the Mufti asked Hitler to stop the immigration.
>I don't know, don't quote me on this -- I am just guessing.

The case is different.  Britain was at war with Germany.  The mufti was
an ally. I have seen no evidence that he asked Hitler to limit immigration.
There is evidence that he asked other Nazis.

>Keep in mind, that Hitler thought that people from the third world are
>useless and they waste the earth resources by simply filling their 
>stomach. So at that time, nobody was fooled by Hitler's motives and I
>don't think any Middle Eastern would have supported him. 

Yes, but there are texts of the communications between the Hitler
and the Mufti, and there are statements of joint support and collaboration.
Maybe in the long term, if the Nazis had not been stopped, the Nazis would 
have enslaved and killed the Arabs as well, but that was not their short 
term policy.  It simply is a fact that the Mufti was a Nazi collaborator.
What is in dispute is how much he actually knew, who he met with, etc.

And there have been at least 10 people, posting from different
places, using different sources, talking about the Mufti.  It's not a
question of just one person anymore.  And Benham, who I believe is Arab,
(so it would be kind of silly to say that he was spreading anti-Arab
propaganda) gave a reference from an anti-Zionist author,
which confirmed the previous stuff that had been said about this topic. 
And the sources themselves have not been disputed; no one has looked up the 
books and said that the posters were lying about what was said in the books,
or quoting out of context.  

>Nabil

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish