HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:46:33 EDT
From: jim bowers <FQV@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: CNN has brief segment of Brewer's Ledge Treadwall

CNN today is doing a health club segment that starts out with a shot
of a girl climbing on the Treadwall.  If you haven't seen on of these
bizarre contraptions this is a good chance.

                                  Jim Bowers
From: u9053042@cs.uow.edu.au (Ian William White)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Neil the climber (who knows Dave Hughes from Australia)
Summary: Looking for Neil from Abernathy Outdoor Ctr in Scotland
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:43:16 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia

Gday, Im looking for Neil (a rockclimber) who worked at Abernathy Outdoor 
Center, Summer 91. Who knows Dave Hughes (a friend of mine)

If you are out there Neil and have an email Address send a reply

If anyone knows Niel then please also send a reply.

	Thanks Ian

Ps if anyone knows the address of Edinbourough Uni, drop a line...


-- 
        Ian the Gnurfling Paddy       | Mrs Elks theory about Brontosaurus's:
   Uni of Wollongong, NSW, Australia. | Brontosaurus's are thin at one end, 
       4 Moore St,Kieraville 2500     | much, *much* thicker in the middle,
u9053042@cs.uow.edu.au  +61 042 295561| and thin at the other end. **WOW**
From: cline+@cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques
Date: 23 Aug 92 12:37:21 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Aug22.094011.329@halfdome.sf.ca.us> bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us (Bob Pasker) writes:
>there are some people who i would not trust to belay me with a ratcheted
>winch off a grand piano, let alone with a sticht plate and body weight.  
>there are others whose attention to detail is so great that if they said 
>they were going to belay me with their bare hands, i would think that 
>they knew what they're doing.

The latter technique was used successfully at the Southern California
Bouldering Championship contest held at Mount Woodson some years ago.
To be fair, the particular routes were short friction slabs.  I didn't
hear any complaints.

>the point is that the success of a belay (i.e. not dying) is based upon
>many more factors besides what technology (or lack thereof) is used to
>provide friction on the rope.  for example, if i were teaching a 15 year
>old to belay, i would have him use a friction device; with royal robbins, 
>i figure he'd probably done a few hip belays in his time and let him do 
>his thing.

Again, why not teach the 15 year old both techniques?  Are young
people unreliable (and if so, why would you teach one to bleay)?  Is
it the weight difference your concenr (maybe valid to prevent injury
to belayer in case of hard leader falls).  This is the type of
attitude that convinces others that body belay is necessarily
inferior.

Ken

PS.  I am not dogmatic about this, but no one has convinced me that
body belays are inappropriate.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Known details of Cathedral accident (additions/changes) to Morton
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 21:10:37 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.181307.27758@nas.nasa.gov>,
eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>
>The Anchor consisted of a Friend (probably a #2) and a TCU (size not
>mentioned in conversation).  Both pieces were intact.
>The anchor was equalized.
>
>The follower had two pieces of pro removed (cleaned) but no other pieces
>on the 40-50 ft. of rope between climber and belayer.
>This is about the only detailed thing different from John [Morton]'s
>forwarded account.  I think they said the two removed pieces were active type
>pro.
>
>It is assumed that not much additional rope was paid out during fall.
>
>It is suspected that they fell around the 3-4 pitch "chimney" pitch.
>It did not occur on the first pitch.
>
>I don't think I've forgotten anything (didn't take notes, but I had to remember
>to add the equalization.
>
>So question: would YOU call this equipment failure or human error?
>
>
A decently placed friend or TCU *alone* should hold any force a
second could normally generate.  Two of the equalized should be very
strong indeed.  Since they were found intact, one can assume that
they pulled.  This is something that shouldn't happen.  The modes I
can think of that might permit this include:  placing them behind an
"expando flake", using an excessivly flaring crack, using a dirty
gravelly crack, using a crack that is too wide allowing the cams to
invert.  Thus if the belay stance is definately known, examining it
for each of these conditions could shed some light.

Can anyone suggest other failure modes?
From: jimd@pequod.gvg.tek.com (Jim Delwiche)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:22:06 GMT
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

In article <1992Aug18.141803.1447@mcnc.org> ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.012617.21434@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> jmorton@euler.Berkeley.EDU (John Morton) writes:
>
>[About the belay methods apparently used, belay device up to piece, then
>down to second]
>
>Without having been on this route, I'll shoot my mouth off and say that
>most belays on this type of route should be body belays.  They are
>faster to set up, and feed rope faster, as well as take in much faster.
>Since the second was a woman climber, it is an easy assumption that she
>was relatively light, and should have been easy to hold.
>

Yes, bringing up a second on a climb like this with body belay would
work fine.  There are ample ledges for most pitches.  I can't remember
when the last time I saw a body belay in use, however, except for
casual belays accross 4th class, or in mountaineering type situations.
My usual climbing partner basically refuses to climb if I threaten to
body belay him.  I assure him I've caught many leader falls with this
technique, and have the rope scars to prove it, but he still won't buy
it.

It would be a good thing if the new generation of climbers was taught
the body belay, if for no other reason than the chance of a dropped
belay appliance.  Since the arm motion in a catch is opposite that
with a figure eight, (cross over the body instead of pull to the side
and back,) it takes a little practice to become automatic.

Another call by an old pharte for a return to the olde days...

Jim D.
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:3012 rec.backcountry:6131 rec.travel:11747
From: klox@otago.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry,rec.travel
Subject: Rarotonga, Cook Islands, Rock Climbing and Caving?
Date: 14 Aug 92 02:58:49 GMT
Organization: University of Otago

A friend of mine is off to the States and South America via Cook Islands

Eyeing up the travel brochures he has seen some photos of limestone cliffs 
and mentions of extensive cave systems on Mangaia Island.

Anyone had any experience climbing there? 

Any other info?

advTHANKSance
KLox

Computer Support
University Of Otago
Dunedin, New Zealand
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: cranch@novell.com (Christopher Ranch)
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Followup-To: rec.climbing
Organization: Novell Inc., San Jose, Califonia
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 01:31:32 GMT

In article <TED.92Aug20185538@aeolia.nmsu.edu> ted@nmsu.edu writes:
>
>most rope twist can be avoided with the munter hitch if you take the
>effort and know how.
>
>--
>
>There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.
>	Larry Wall

	I'd be most interested in a explanation of this technique...
---
Chris Ranch
Internetworking Products Division
Novell, Inc.  San Jose, CA
(408)473-8667  cranch@novell.com
I may work for Novell, but I don't speak for them...
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: belaying seconds (was Cathedral)
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 23:27:11 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug19.031918.3839@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky) writes:
>eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>>[One partner's favorite photo in Meyer's Yosemite Climber is Dale Bard
>>after he jumared up on a wall anchor consisting of 5 RURPs and blades.]
>
>Hmmm

Agreed.  Wayne however liked it.

Good stuff on belaying, thinner ropes, etc.

>And I think it is the seconds responsibility not to outrun the belay.

I was taught, the belay is for the climber, in this case the second.
You bring in rope for or at the pace of the climber.  Now a second
can be dumb, but the belayer has the responsibility of safe guarding his
climber be he a leader or a second or other follower.

This is the theoretical ideal.
This is the activity of climbing after all, and not belaying.
Rope jams where you end up free soloing not included.

"Belay that Ensign!"

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek)
Subject: Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite
Organization: Good place for a disclaimer
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:18:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.012617.21434@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> jmorton@euler.Berkeley.EDU (John Morton) writes:

[About the belay methods apparently used, belay device up to piece, then
down to second]

Without having been on this route, I'll shoot my mouth off and say that
most belays on this type of route should be body belays.  They are
faster to set up, and feed rope faster, as well as take in much faster.
Since the second was a woman climber, it is an easy assumption that she
was relatively light, and should have been easy to hold.

>At a time when most belays were on ledges I was taught that 
>the body position was very important in holding falls.  The
>anchor was always lined up with the potential direction of pull,
>something which is made difficult with harnesses which have no
>anchor points in back.

A reasonable cure for this harness disease is to slip a sewn quick draw
about 6" in length over the harness until it is around the wasit belt in
back.  It can be tacked in place with a few stitches if there isn't
enough hardware rigging to fix it.  It may rotate around the body in the
event of a fall at an angle, but as John says, the belay should be
arranged to minimize the angle.

Early in my climbing career, I belayed a second at the Gunks, tied into
a tree just at my left elbow, sitting full thighs
on a typical incut Gunks ledge, my feet angled out and the
rope straight down between them, an almost textbook stance.  My 225 lb
second tried to lunge a bulge, missed, and I flew forward into space,
then whipped left in a tight arc.  I had previously held his falls at
the same place with no trouble.

-- 
And if your hand or foot offend you,         Ed Pavelchek   ekp@mcnc.org
  Cut it off, lad, and be whole;
But play the man, stand up and end you,
  When your sickness is your soul.           AE Housman
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright)
Subject: Re: Known details of Cathedral accident (additions/changes) to Morton
Originator: billw@ace
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:25:32 GMT
Reply-To: billw@sjc.mentorg.com
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


In article <1992Aug19.200001.13617@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, mlord@bmers63.bnr.ca (Mark Lord) writes:
|> As climbers who enjoy the sport, I also feel that this is the *only* response
|> we could ever possibly give to such a question, if we wish to continue to
|> practice our sport indefinitely, free from regulation.
|> 
|> Even if an accident such as this involved failed/broken equipment,
|> the real failure is always ourselves for having used/trusted that gear
|> in that particular circumstance (or having failed to retreat if we did
|> not trust the gear) in that particular circumstance.  If we are not
|> comfortable with that level of risk, I feel that we should take up
|> lawn bowling (or poker) and forget about climbing.

I must whole heartedly agree with Mark here.  VERY few climbing accidents
can be attributed to equipment failure.  You stay alive climbing by good
judgement and there is always a possibility of equipment failure.  It is
up to you to reduce the penalties when something breaks (and it rarely
ever does.)

In this situation nothing broke and it is therefore impossible to call it
equipment failure.  The pro was placed very poorly.  And why was it even
weighted?  Climbing is a serious game and, while it can be very safe, can
be very harsh when a mistake is made.  But we are all responsible for
ourselves. Nobody else can be.


-- 
             Bill Wright / bill_wright@mentorg.com

                  "When in doubt, run it out!"
From: lizb@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Liz Bradley)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:12:01 GMT
	<5045@gold.gvg.tek.com> <1992Aug18.144727.307@halfdome.sf.ca.us>
	<27324@sophia.inria.fr>
Reply-To: lizb@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.
In-reply-to: luong@cuba.inria.fr's message of 19 Aug 92 10:22:14 GMT

(Quang-Tuan Luong) writes:

   |> new climbers should be taught all the traditional techniques that were 
   |> developed before modern technology made our lives so much easier. 

   I agree entirely.

Yes.  And speaking of which, the munter hitch - which I would always
choose over a hip belay - has been significantly absent from this
thread of discussion.  Any comments about the relative merits of these
two techniques?

Liz Bradley 
MIT AI Lab

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: marlatt@spot.Colorado.EDU (Stuart W. Marlatt)
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:19:01 GMT

In article <LIZB.92Aug19111201@klosters.ai.mit.edu> lizb@altdorf.ai.mit.edu writes:
>(Quang-Tuan Luong) writes:
>
>   |> new climbers should be taught all the traditional techniques that were 
>   |> developed before modern technology made our lives so much easier. 
>
>   I agree entirely.
>
>Yes.  And speaking of which, the munter hitch - which I would always
>choose over a hip belay - has been significantly absent from this
>thread of discussion.  Any comments about the relative merits of these
>two techniques?
>
>Liz Bradley 
>MIT AI Lab
>

This has been pretty well hashed over in the past. 
Two words: rope twist. Munter has it, hip don't.

(Two more words: rope burn. Hip has it, munter don't).


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 In this decayed hole among the mountains                                 
In the faint moonlight, the grass is singing                              
  --T.S. Eliot, The Waste Land                                            
..............................................................................
s.w. marlatt, <><  &  *(:-)
University of Colorado:                   marlatt@spot.Colorado.edu  492-3939
National Center for Atmospheric Research: marlatt@neit.cgd.ucar.edu  497-1669
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: richa@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Richard D Austin)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Liberty Crack
Keywords: Info wanted
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:41:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: tekig7.6515
Distribution: pnw


	Hi There.

	My partner and I are getting ready to attempt Liberty Crack.  Does
    anyone know the conditions up there?  How is the snowfield and shrund
    at the base of the climb?  Is there much aid after the 3rd pitch? Any
    comments, insights would be welcome.

    Thanx in Advance,
    richard austin
    richa@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM


    
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bishop@botany.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Rarotonga, Cook Islands, Rock Climbing and Caving?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:23:03 GMT

In article <klox.39@otago.ac.nz> klox@otago.ac.nz writes:
> A friend of mine is off to the States and South America via Cook Islands
> 
> Eyeing up the travel brochures he has seen some photos of limestone  
cliffs 
> and mentions of extensive cave systems on Mangaia Island.
> 
> Anyone had any experience climbing there? 
> 
> Any other info?
> 
	
	Along these lines, has anyone done any climbing or caving in  
French Polynesia or the Fijian Islands?

-John Bishop
 University of Washington
 bishop@botany.washington.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
From: mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson)
Subject: Death on the Knife Edge :-(
Summary: Does anyone know more about this accident? 
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Distribution: na 
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:39:22 GMT

I just returned from vacation to get the most unwelcome news that another
former climbing partner has died on a mountain.  He had climbed Capitol Peak
(Colorado, Elk Range) and, at least according to what I read, was crossing
the famous "Knife Edge" and simply fell off.  His body wound up a thousand
feet below the spot of the fall ...

Now I am no stranger to the hazards of Capitol Peak, having had a frighteningly
near miss there myself.  The Knife Edge, however, is *not* the place on Capitol
that strikes me as the most likely spot for an accident (my near-miss happened
elsewhere).  Although extremely exposed (!), it is stable, secure, and not
difficult climbing.  An experienced climber -- and Ron was certainly *very*
experienced -- shouldn't have much trouble with it.  But Ron did ... and I'm
struggling with the question of why.

Does anyone know more about this accident?  Alan?  Randy?

-- 
Bill Johnson				| "This is a bit complicated, so let
Los Alamos National Laboratory		| me explain it backwards."  (first
Los Alamos, New Mexico USA		| line of a memo from a fellow Los
!cmcl2!lanl!mwj (mwj@lanl.gov)		| Alamos physicist who will go unnamed)
From: cptully@med.unc.edu (Christopher P. Tully,Pathology,62679)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:49:27 GMT
Reply-To: cptully@med.unc.edu
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine

In article 92Aug19111201@klosters.ai.mit.edu, lizb@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Liz Bradley) writes:
>(Quang-Tuan Luong) writes:
>
>   |> new climbers should be taught all the traditional techniques that were 
>   |> developed before modern technology made our lives so much easier. 
>
>   I agree entirely.
>
>Yes.  And speaking of which, the munter hitch - which I would always
>choose over a hip belay - has been significantly absent from this
>thread of discussion.  Any comments about the relative merits of these
>two techniques?
>
>Liz Bradley 
>MIT AI Lab
>


the munter hicth twists ropes in a hurry.  I know climbers on both sides - 
some don't use any thing but, others will kill if you use a munter on their rope.
---
*********************************************************************
Christopher P. Tully				<cptully@med.unc.edu>
Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill		1122 Vic Charles Dr.
Department of Pathology				Raleigh, NC 27606
CB# 7525			work: (919) 966-2699
Chaple Hill, NC 27599		hone: (919) 851-8816
*********************************************************************
 All opinions above are Copywrite <current year> Christoper P. Tully
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: poor belays
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 01:42:27 GMT

In article <eric.714267987@milton> eric@milton.u.washington.edu
(Eric Hirst) writes:
>Contrary to popular belief, there are still
>plenty of refrigerator-sized blocks just itching to join their comrades in the
>talus below.

You don't need to be climbing or belaying.  Just stepping on such was how the
fellow died in the Palisades last week.  It was "refrigerator-sized"
or "car-sized" depending on who you talk to.  The area was class 1|2 on
the way to an anchor for a short class 4 rap.  Just one thing to remember when
walking close to certain edges like the top of Glacier Point.
Gravity is not fooled.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Please explain the rating system
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:43:55 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

In article <1992Aug11.160144.17810@ncar.ucar.edu>
ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
>Nah, the National Institute for Standards and Technology (formerly the
>National Bureau of Standards) has a lab right here in Boulder...right
>in front of the Flatirons...I asked the head of the Climbing Lab where
>they kept the standard, and he jerked a thumb over his shoulder and
>said, "We keep it out back there -- won't fit in the warehouse."

Is that the warehouse where they keep "the lost Ark of the Coventant?"
Where they have "top men" working on the problem?  "Top men!"

How are my NCAR photos doing?  8^)  Use those space blankets yet?

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: msentell@resdgs1.er.usgs.gov (Mark Sentell)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: climbing walls
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:37:33 GMT
Organization: United States Geological Survey
Originator: msentell@resdgs1.er.usgs.gov


Does anyone have experience building climbing walls?  I am considering building a 16'x12' climbing wall at my house, and I need suggestions for materials, type and density of holds, suppliers, etc.  Any good books/rags about building climbing walls?
 
Reply via e-mail and I will summarize and post later.
 
mws
-- 
Mark Sentell                           |  msentell@resdgs1.er.usgs.gov
United States Geological Survey        | 
Reston, VA                             |  [INSERT SNAZZY TAGLINE HERE] 
(703) 648-4526                         |                      
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: What happened to REI?
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 07:47:06 GMT

In article <6590@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com writes:
	post noting photos of packs on models w/o waist bands
>Made me wonder what kind of person they think their customer is.

You can ask them.
They do market research.
They mail out the optically sensed Hollerith cards.
They have people stand with clip boards asking questions.
They occasionally inform their members in surveys.
They realize the money is to be made in clothing.
When they ask: "Are you a member?" one must realize that for every person
who answers "Yes" other people answer "No" and have no interest in being
members.  And you members get some of the dividends from these non-members.
They have a mean-age and distribution.  They realize most of their clients
are young white males (like the net).  That they spend a average amount of
money per year (I forget the figure, around a couple $100).  The vast
majority aren't climbers (this is r.c.).  Influence is, how do you say:
you "vote" with your pocket book. It is not the tyranny of the majority
but you might think about influences.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya