HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: llk@kepler.unh.edu (Local Genius)
Subject: The OAU/AFRICA AND SOMALIA
Organization: Department of Mathematics
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:32:58 GMT

According to Boutros Ghali, the UN Secretary General, and as most of
the readers already know, there was very little presssure, if any,
from African countries to get the UN to help Somalia. Speaking to
Ted Koppel on Nightline last night (09/09/92), Ghali said that this
was in sharp contrast to the situation in the former Yugoslavia
where European members of the UN made all kinds of noises.

The OAU has been shameful (immoral?) in its handling of the famine
in Somalia. Although it is probably impractical to expect African 
countries to send food aid to Somalia, there is a lot they could
have done. For example, the OAU and the African countries could
have said to the UN, you find the food, we'll make the neccessary
logistical/security arrangements. Surely, the UN didn't have to
look to Pakistan for the security personnel.

Perhaps we need to pressure African leaders and the OAU to play
a more active role, especially since some continue to use the
security "problem" as an excuse for delaying food aid to Somalia.

--

lk(with the man in the yellow hat)
                 Hamba Ine, Adada cha!
** I take one day at a time but lately, several have attacked me all
   at once **

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (kauta)
Subject: Re: Exclusivity of "Die Stem"
Organization: Indiana University, Department of Mathematics.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:10:33 GMT

In article <BuD9qu.Exx@casper.cs.uct.ac.za> gds@cs.uct.ac.za writes:

>I agree (about the reason for the fuss) - I was just making "an aside" as
>they say in scripts - and not that an important "aside" either, so I'll
>shut up now.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And about time too, lest some nut decides to translate Mein Kampf into an
AWB anthem, if that has not been done already!


-- 
Internet: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Bitnet:   kautaj@iubacs.bitnet         
Uucp:     kautaj@iubacs.uucp           
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: nicolson@odie.ee.wits.ac.za (James Nicolson)
Subject: Re: Bisho Massacre
Organization: Wits Electrical Engineering (Novell Users).
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:52:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.114104.14861@ucthpx.uct.ac.za> gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:

>It's common cause that the ANC were warned beforehand that conflict
>was likely, they ignored all warnings. Common cause that the magisterial
>order was deliberately broken by Kasrils, in a pre-planned move, and
>that this led to the shooting. 

Of course everybody knew that things were tense -- most of all the marchers, 
since they live in Ciskei. There are two problems with putting the blame on 
Kasrils:

- It smacks of Racism: The ignorant black hordes being lead to their deaths. 
  The people who marched through the hole in the fence were intent on going 
  to Bisho - the march was organised locally, not by the SACP top brass, as 
  is portrayed on SABC - it was the local ANC and its supporters that wanted 
  to march to Bisho.

- Some posters (and the SABC) are making out that Kasrils wanted people to 
  get shot. The SABC was very successful in creating this impression by 
  cleverly editing his side of the story. It is quite clear that what he 
  wanted was for the march to reach Bisho.

Just as everyone knew that there could be conflict, so everyone knew that 
the march was going to push on to Bisho. There was no secret SACP plan -- it 
was common knowledge for days in advance.

Clearly everyone overestimated the CDF, Gqozo and his SA govt advisers. No 
one expected that soldiers would be hiding in the grass waiting to ambush 
the marchers.

At the most, the ANC can be said to have made a serious tactical blunder (
any suggestion that the massacre is what they were out to get is 
absurd).

If there is any `secret conspiracy' involved, it is not by the SACP, but by 
the SA military (v.d. Westhuizen et. al.). The Gqozo govt, especially his 
army is directly run by the South African govt. With something as sensitive 
as this march, there can be no doubt that these SA `advisors' were running 
the show. The fact that the massacre seems to have been well planned can 
mean only one thing -- the South Africans are using Gqozo to do what they 
cannot be seen to be doing. Afterall, while they want him as an ally, they 
are under no illusions that he will deliver any support in terms of votes, 
all they want is another person on their side of the table. He is then well 
suited to being used to massacre ANC members. As a spin off, the SA govt can 
be seen to be the moderate influence between warring black factions.

------------
James Nicolson, Department of Electrical Engineering
University of the Witwatersrand, South Africa
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: linda@frcs.Alt.ZA (Linda Jacobson)
Subject: Re: A question for ANC supporters (re: Bisho)
Organization: Onderstepoort School of Veterinary Science, University of Pretoria
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 16:51:08 GMT

Thus spake phjj@ruchem.ru.ac.za (Justin Jonas):

> As others have pointed out Ciskei and Bop have been singled out, and conspiracy
> theories abound.  As I have said in a previous posting, the local ANC
> and residents want Gqozo out: he does not allow the ANC any political
> freedom, and, worst of all, his security machine is very efficient at
> destroying opposition.  I would guess the same holds for Bop, but here
> I rely on newspaper reports.  So the ANC sees good reason for targeting
> these homelands before constitutional talks. 

I assume by this you meant that they are concerned about voting for a
constituent assembly, first that they won't be able to canvas support
and second that voting will not be fair. Is this the correct
conclusion? And does anybody know what kinds of arrangements have been
suggested for the "homelands", if we ever get to the point of en
election for a CA?

Linda
From: mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Bisho: Eyewitness #1 - Stefaans Brumner (The Argus)
Date: 14 Sep 92 11:17:24 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

Eyewitness report #1   Stefaans Brummer (Argus newspaper)

     Absolute loneliness  and stunned  disbelief go  through
your head  for two  minutes of eternity.  The less fortunate
get a bullet in the same place.
     When it  starts  you  think  it  must  be  teargas,  or
firecrackers.   Anything but  live ammunition.  Humans don't
do this to one another.
     On a  slight incline  on the Ciskei side of the border,
halfway between  the opposing  sides, you  are running to be
closer to the action where a fence is being dragged down.
     When you hear those first crack sounds, as disbelieving
as you are, you fling yourself at the dry, hard ground.
     A glance over your shoulder confirms your instinct is a
universal one.  The others, like you, have nowhere to run.
     You cannot understand why the shooting does not stop.
     It gets  worse.   At first the crack sounds were empty.
Some now  take on  a fuller whistling sound.  You guess they
are close.   How to screen yourself ... hands over the head.
You know  this is  futile.   A hand  won't  stop  a  bullet.
Besides, you  like your hands.  But who knows, maybe it will
make a difference.
     And please  stop,  just  stop,  we  don't  want  anyone
getting hurt; this is not a game, you know.
     The loneliness  is terrible.   You  are all  alone, far
from anyone,  just surrounded  by bullets  on an open field.
The others are mostly down by the road and the Casspirs.
     Then you  start  missing  people,  your  ex-girlfriend,
everyone, while  all the  while the rifles bark and machine-
guns rattle  and grenades do what grenades do.  When will it
end?
     After two  minutes it  stops slowly.    There  is  some
sporadic firing  still, but  you run  back to  the road.  At
least you think you ran because its all blotted out.
     You hide  behind the big rubber wheel of a Casspir full
of journalists, Peace Secretariat people and others.
     Then there  is another  volley, probably as long as the
first.   You feel  safer behind the wheel.  You can see more
than the soil hard against your face.
     But why  are they  shooting again?  People are still on
the ground.  No-one moved.  Why are they shooting?
     When that volley dies down, the Casspir lumbers off and
you hang  onto the  back, still scared of sporadic cracks of
sound.  But you move to safety, you and your Casspir full of
whites and important people.
     But a  groaning mass of humanity stays behind, counting
the cost of a march to freedom and death
From: abs0@coos.dartmouth.edu (Kelvin Leung)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,soc.culture.filipino,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: Re: [SOC] Protest of the beating death of Mr. Luyen Phan Nguyen.
Keywords: [SOC] Protest of the beating death of Mr. Luyen Phan Nguyen.
Date: 8 Sep 92 15:48:07 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH


Dear Christopher,

	Before you include my name in the list of protesters, I would like
to once again clarify my position.  In response to your first posting of
the beating, I expressed my sympathy.  I, however, cannot and will not
consider this incident as a result of mere racial hatred.  I agree that
the gang has to be punished.  Their punishment not only serves the purpose
of educating them, but also to demonstrate that such beatings will not 
be tolerated.  Nonetheless, I don't agree with the tone of voice of the
letter you just wrote.  Frankly, I believe in letting live.  I believe in
giving them chances.  I believe in education. 

	I refuse to blame it solely on racism, as I believe it would happen
to anyone.  If any of my beliefs contradict with yours, and differ from 
the purpose of the letter, please take my name out of your list.  However,
if you decide to leave my name on the list, please include my response
to your posting in the letter.

	For those who disagree with me, and see the needs to argue, please
do so via e-mail.  I stand firm on my beliefs, and I don't believe in
revenge. Thanks for listening.

Yours Sincerely,
Kelvin
                                            ____________________________
 __________________________________________/ Undergraduate, Class of 94 \___ 
/____________________________________________________________\_____/________\
|  Kelvin    /   Internet: Kelvin.Leung@Dartmouth.edu       ({o   o})       |
|   Leung   /       or     abs0@Coos.Dartmouth.edu        <  #  ^  #  >     | 
|__________/_______________________________________________(vvvvvvvvv)______|
| "Unless someone like you cares a whole |  Do you see a doll? a beast?     |
|  awful lot, nothing is going to get    |                                  |
|  better.  It's not."                   |  There are always more than one  |
|               -- Dr. Seuss (The Lorax) |  side to any story...            |
 \______________________________________/ \________________________________/ 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.african:4618 soc.culture.filipino:3251 soc.culture.taiwan:13032 soc.culture.hongkong:10588 soc.culture.indian:30654 soc.culture.vietnamese:13251
From: montas@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Hubert J Montas)
Subject: Re: Hijackers of Ethiopian airliner surrender in Rome
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 21:20:53 GMT

Hi guys,

        I took Ethiopian Airlines in 1990 from Nairobi to Addis and
then Addis->Dire Dawa->Addis. The plane was in great condition. The
service was excellent! We had a high class snack and the headphones
were so good, I took them home! So, I really don't understand this
story about flour bags and dust and what not. What's going on?

        Hubert.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mbanane)
Subject: UPI: Tutu quits Harvard board
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:55:12 GMT



	CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (UPI) -- South Africa's Anglican archbishop, Desmond
Tutu, resigned Thursday as a member of Harvard University's governing
board of overseers, saying the violence sweeping his country will keep
him and other black leaders at home.
	Tutu, 60, who was named to the board in 1989, told Harvard President
Neil Rudenstein in a letter that his decision was effective immediately.
His term was due to run through 1995.
	``The situation in my home country is volatile in the extreme and
very fluid, requiring that many of us should be more available to help
in the delicate but exhilarating business of being midwives for the
birth of the much-awaited new South Africa,'' Tutu wrote.
	Rudenstein said he said accepted Tutu's decision with ``the greatest
regret,'' but added, ``we fully understand and respect his decision.''
	Harvard's board of overseers, a 30-member panel elected by university
graduates, sharges the job of governing the nation's oldest university
with the Harvard Corporation. The two bodies must approve all major
teaching and administrative appointments.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (kauta)
Subject: Re: drought/rights
Organization: Indiana University, Department of Mathematics.
Distribution: soc
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 22:08:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.891.6701@dosgate> "colin perkel" <colin.perkel@canrem.com> writes:
>   A recent Human Rights Watch report attributes all the major famines
>in recent memory to the systematic abuse of human rights in countries,
>not to the weather.

"Freedom" and "Democracy" are neither necessary nor sufficient prerequisites
for development.

Case in Point: South Korea. Has seen unprecedented economic growth under a 
               very repressive regime.
Case in Point: Taiwan. Same as above. {An aside: I vividly recall this 
               episode whereby the legislature was battling it out [with bare
               fists] recently. It reminded me this incident a few years ago 
               in the corridors of the OAU headquarters in which members of 
               the Polisario Front were battling it out with the Moroccan 
               delegation. An important distinction tho': unlike in the 
               Taiwanese case, there are NO enmities among Africans. Just 
               active disagreements!}
Case in Point: USSR under Stalin. The highest industrial growth this century.
               Currently, Boris "Gimme a Vodka" Yeltsin is just foaming
               at the mouth!
Case in Point: Chile under Augusto Pinochet. "Trickle Down Ray-gunomics".

On the other hand, Tanzania under Nyerere was really not an economic power.
She was relatively free of oppression, had a good education system etc. But 
wouldn't compare with her neighbours in the East African Economic Community 
at all in terms of the more "fashionable" economic indicators.

Could it be corruption then?? Nyet! Nyet! Nyet! There is corruption throughout
the world. Why should the effects be so devastating only in Africa?

Case in Point: Ray-gun adminstration. About a 100 of his political appointees
               indicted! Himself napping throughout the decade!
Case in Point: Italy now. Those involved are commiting "suicide". Probably
               silenced.
Case in Point: Brazil now. Despite its massive debt, her economy is among the
               most vibrant in the "Third World". Yet the president is a sick
               corrupt SOB!

Conclusion: You just have to sit on massive wealth and everything gonna be OK.
            Look at these corrupt Gulf tyrants. They have ripped off lot's of
            cash and yet,since there is too much of it, it DOES trickle down 
            to the masses. In some cases anyway.
           
            Another way to develop a lot is to rip off weaker states. But 
            this can't happen since the world is full of angels!

===========================================================================
"Some people might argue that the ongoing war in Bosnia is not a Jihad," 
he said,"but we say that the one who dies defending his wealth is a martyr, 
the one who dies defending his honor is a martyr."  -- Lotfi Hermi

-- 
Internet: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Bitnet:   kautaj@iubacs.bitnet         
Uucp:     kautaj@iubacs.uucp
From: dmorse@igc.apc.org (Dorothy Morse)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Somalia waste scandal - Greenpe
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:04:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Sep12.113045.11688@news.cs.i:-757767793:cdp:1471700120:000:391
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Sep 14 17:04:00 1992


Reply from Greenpeace Italy, today, (email from Rome):

"At Greenpeace Italy they are closely monitoring Progresso's activities
trying to expose their scams.  There is however no evidence that Progresso
is the same company that distributes Italian food in the US, and they
are almost positive that this company has nothing to do with the US food co."

(they thank us for our interest, too).
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: llk@kepler.unh.edu (Local Genius)
Subject: Re: unity and other myths
Organization: Department of Mathematics
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 18:22:04 GMT

In article <Bu7v51.4u5@casper.cs.uct.ac.za> gds@cs.uct.ac.za writes:
>mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:


<stuff deleted>

>especially the official translation, it is not at all "exclusive"
>-- or am I totally mistaken?  

>The only "exclusive" part in Die Stem is in verse 1:
>
>>     From our plains where creaking wagons cut their trails
>>          into the earth - 
>
So what are you saying? I mean you claim the song ain't exclusive and then
proceed to show where it is...Are you saying that the fact that the song
is exclusive in that one verse is not reason enough to say it is?

>The Afrikaans version is more "exclusive", but only in two places: the
>one mentioned above and then the last line of the second verse
>
>>     Waar en trou as Afrikaners - kinders van Suid-Afrika.
>      Tried and true as Afrikaners - children of South Africa
>
>[Which gives me an idea - I'll translate the Afrikaans version more directly
>into English and post it tomorrow, unless I get a flood of NO! PLEASE
>DON'Ts :-)]
>
>And before I get hate mail: no, I don't care if we get another anthem, as
>long as it is a nice one.  Nkosi would do, just a pity Zimbabwe already
>took the tune (and Malawi's anthem also sounds like it - words are 
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is totally untrue! Malawi's anthem has almost nothing to do with
Nkosi - Zambia's, yes. 

>similar too).
>-- 
>Riel Smit,  Computer Science                              gds@cs.uct.ac.za
>University of Cape Town                      gds%cs.uct.ac.za@rain.psg.com


--

lk(with the man in the yellow hat)

** I take one day at a time but lately, several have attacked me all
   at once **
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: gds@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (Riel Smit)
Subject: Re: Killing (Masacre) in South-Africa
Reply-To: gds@cs.uct.ac.za
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 10:52:58 GMT

paul@frcs.Alt.ZA (Paul Nash) writes:
>9) The Supreme Court believes that the Ciskeian Defence Force (sic) is
>searching for, and beating up, people who took part in the march.  They
>refused to grant an interdict restraining the ANC from assaulting the
>military, however, as they felt that there was insufficient evidence
>that this was happening.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 No, insufficient evidence that it was the ANC supporters doing the
 assaulting - burning houses is enough evidence that it is happening.
-- 
Riel Smit,  Computer Science                              gds@cs.uct.ac.za
University of Cape Town                      gds%cs.uct.ac.za@rain.psg.com
Xref: sparky soc.culture.african:4772 sanet.talk.politics:15 apc.reg.safrica:4
From: mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics,apc.reg.safrica
Subject: Re: Figures on Violence - Controversy Grows
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:35:16 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:
> This isn't a question of NEUTRALITY (whatever that is) it's a question
> of fact: is reporting by the HRC/CASE setup accurate or not, and whether
> SAIRR criticism of that is justified or not.

The question of SAIRR's alleged neutrality is central to the debate here, 
not least because SAIRR and Kane-Berman hide behind the notion of
neutrality and objectivity.  Gavan's stressing of FACTS, FACTS is
another attempt to claim objectivity.  (The point is that there are
clearly different interpretations of the facts.)

I believe the the honourable Dr MG Buthelezi is a patron of the SAIRR.

Is this consistent with an organisation which claims the objectivity
that the SAIRR does?  Given Buthelezi's recent embrace of Gqozo as
a "comrade in arms" and his call to "bugger up" the ANC, will the
SAIRR strip him of that "honour".

Mark Ramsden
From: gilford@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Gilford T. Hapanyengwi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Killing (Masacre) in South-Africa
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:18:48 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University CS Dept.

I watched in shock at the pictures of the massacre in Ciskei (sp)
yesterday.  I also was shocked by what I thought was a very cold and
business like statement which "Mr." deKlerk issued after the massacre.
Being in this far removed country and with very limited News I am not
in a position to know who is to blame.  One person I am sure is the
most cold blooded "human being" is the leader of Ciskei.
	I would really appreciate more information from the people in
South-Africa in particular and the rest of the world for that matter.
Please tell us what the heck is happening and what you (or they) say
is going to happen next.

Peace,
--
<><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<>>
Gilford T. Hapanyengwi       |YES, I am the snake eyed one
(615) 322-3552               |-Nyasha Shasha
gilford@vuse.vanderbilt.edu  |
hapanyg@vuctrvax.bitnet      |
From: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: UPI: Ciskei troops kill fifteen as ANC marches on Ciskei capital
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 21:48:00  -2
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7101/22.5 - Novell User Group, Pretoria RSA

On <10 Sep 1992 20:51> Gavan Tredoux said to All :

 GT>There isn't any parallel, merely because people are out in the streets
 GT>in both cases. The European situation was largely spontaneous, it wasn't
 GT>organized by a insurgent organization with a history of armed struggle
 GT>and "people's war". One striking difference: in Europe the communists
 GT>were the target of the protests, here they lead them. Notice Ronnie 
 GT>Kasrils' admission that his Olympic sprint was planned, in defiance of
 GT>a magisterial order.

The similarities outweigh the differences. In most of Eastern Europe there 
were demonstrations against dictatorial regimes, and the demo Ciskei in the 
Ciskei was of the same kind.

In Eastern Europe the communists were applying the dictatorship. In South 
Africa they are seeking to overthrow it. They may change their tune if they 
ever come to power here themselves.

In California some years ago a university tried to supress the freedom of 
speech of a communist professor. He took them to court, and the university 
claimed that as a communist he would suppress the freedom of speech of others 
if he had his way. The judge upheld the professor. The professor might be 
talking about supressing freedom of speech, but the university was actually 
doing it. 

You seem to be saying that it's ok for dictators to shoot at people, as long 
as they are shooting at communists.

Steve Hayes
Editorial Department 
University of South Africa
P O Box 392
Pretoria
0001 South Africa



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Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics,apc.reg.safrica