From: steve@uswmrg.mrg.uswest.com (Steven Martin)
Subject: Re: A Means To Help Keep Change In Check
XXXDate: Fri, 20 Nov 92 22:42:33 GMT
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Date: 20 Nov 92 22:56:10 GMT

In article <MCCARTY.92Nov19184331@aphid.add.itg.ti.com> Rick McCarty,
mccarty@add.itg.ti.com writes:
>In article <1992Nov19.185445.22510@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don 
>Baldwin) writes:
>   >I feel it's absurd to argue that everyone is safer if everyone can pack
>   >a pistol.  The statistics as I understand them just don't bear out the
>   >claim that with a gun in the house, one has a better chance against a
>   >bad guy.  Turns out that more innocent people get hurt than helped by
>   >having a gun around.
>
>>   Who said that?  I consider gun ownership a right; I agree that carrying
>>   a gun is a privilege.  I do think that anyone with a clean record and
>>   some amount of training should be able to carry.
>
>I guess I'm in that minority of folks who don't feel too comfortable with
>the knowledge that John Q. Public might be packing.  There are lots of
>incidents where someone with a clean record got pissed off, went off the
>deep end, reached into the drawer and shot someone.

I suppose you might be. It is called hoplophobia, "fear of weapons" (Actually
it is more accurately a fear of tools or technology.) It is a problem that
a number of people have and I often feel sorry for them, my guns are a lot
more safe than most cars, but I don't have an overwhelming fear of being
close to other drivers.

>>   The gun accident death rate in the 70s was about 2400/year; in 1990 it
>>   was down to 1200.  While I think that those deaths are tragedies, I don't
>>   think the rate is high enough to warrant further legislation.
>
>I agree about the gun accident rate.  However, that was only one of the
>causes I listed, and the least frequent.  Suicides and homicides among
>friends and family account for the greatest numbers.

Not at all. The figure reported state the number of 'Acquaintance' killings.
Note that if a drug dealer kills another drug dealer that he knows, this
is reported as an Acquaintance killing. Someone else posted the actual
numbers on this awhile back, and you are very unlikely to be killed by
a family member with no previous history of violent crime or insanity.

>>   I don't think suicides are relevant to the discussion of gun control.
>
>Sure they are.  Killing yourself with a gun is a lot surer and more
>dramatic than other methods  I think you'd find accessibility plays a
>significant role.

So, what is your point? Suicidal people are naturally going to gravitate
to the most effective means that they can think of. Are you saying that
because some mentally unstable people will use the most effective
way they can to commit suicide we should disallow anyone from using that
tool?

>>   Did Time also say how many of those friends/family members obtained
>>   their guns legally?  Because something like 85% of such murders are
>>   committed by people with previous felony records who couldn't have
obtained
>>   a gun legally anyway!  But then Time has told gun owners who've written
>>   in that the time for a balanced discussion of the issue is over, so I
>>   don't expect professional objectivity from them...
>
>So?  For the sake of argument, let's assume your statistic is correct.  You've
>made my point for me.  It's TOO EASY to get hold of a handgun in this
>country  if a felon can walk into a shop and buy one, we're in deep trouble.
>Even if by making it harder we only can prevent 10 or 15 percent of that 85%
>from obtaining one, lives will be saved.
>
>>   Sorry Rick but the question is moot.  there is no possible way that all
>>   the privately owned handguns could be removed from society.  None.
>>   Live with it...
>
>I hold no illusion that all privately owned handguns can be removed.
>But I do think we can do a lot better than we are.

At what? Taking guns out of the hands of lawabiding citizens? Penalize
me because a few other people are abusing the system? This is the typical
answer when we have a problem and want to attack the symptom.

>>   I take it you don't live in LA or Florida...
>
>I used to live in both places.

But apparently not during the recent riots or the aftermath of Hurricane
Andrew.

        Steve Martin
        steve@uswmrg.mrg.uswest.com

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and
 bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against 
 tyranny in government."  Thomas Jefferson
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc