From: ishikawa@ds5200.personal-media.co.jp (Chiaki Ishikawa)
Newsgroups: fj.life.in-japan,fj.rec.sports.football
Subject: Re: [Soccer] Re: Asia Cup
Date: 19 Nov 92 13:59:38 GMT
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Reply-To: ishikawa@personal-media.co.jp
Followup-To: fj.life.in-japan
Organization: Personal Media Corp., Tokyo Japan
In-reply-to: farzin@apollo3.apollo3.ntt.JP's message of 19 Nov 92 05:03:08 GMT


[Somehow the fj.rec.sports.football was missing in the newsgroup line. So I
attach it again.]

In article <r9c.l3uca@lab.ntt.jp> farzin@apollo3.apollo3.ntt.JP (Farzin Mokhtarian) writes:

>   I know Iran is planning to complain or has already done so. Maybe they
>   can get to the bottom of this. But this kind of thing clearly shows
>   that they need cameras to cover the "offside angle" to settle such
>   disputes.

	I agree that such cameras WILL BE VERY USEFUL for confirming
the referee's call. I wonder if the next world cup in U.S.A. will
adopt such hardware.  At least, it will be helpful to decide whether a
play was an offside or a goal is scored or not.
	However, I don't know if the referees of the world would like
this or not.

>    @Excuse me? Guilt WAS CLEAR.

I meant it was a clear cut case who caused the Japanese player to lie
on the ground. That is why I meant the guilt was clear.  (Now I see
that you might have put emphasis on the moral meaning of the word
"guilt". I don't mean to accuse the player. Frankly, I am not sure
what the right word is. Is your mother language English? Mine is not.)

>    @Again, I am not sure if the Iranian player was intent on charging.
>    @The problem was that he was much taller, bigger, and heavier than the
>    @Japanese mid-field player who fell to the ground. It was a bad luck.
>    @
>    @Ishikawa
	
	No one can see inside the player's mind at the time of a play. 
He/she may be able to explain later, but I doubt if the description
later on is an accurate one even though it comes from the original
person. For that matter, a referee can't really say what goes inside
the player's mind at a time of a foul. The referee has to blow the
whistle to give out free kick, yellow/red cards, or whatever he/she
deems appropriate based only what he/she can see.

>   Earlier you said that "guilt was clear" and now you say you "are not
>   sure if the Iranian player was intent on charging". If he was not
>   intent on charging, then he was not guilty and he should not have
>   received a red card.
>
>   Farzin

	"If he was not intent on charging, then ...". Too true.  But,
how can a referee decide whehter he was intent or not reliably?  All a
referee can rely is the physical evidence, plus his/her hunch.  My
meaning of the word "guilty" here in the context of refereeing a
soccer game is NOT about the intent in the player's mind. I only mean
if a play that is deemed a foul play was committed who was directly
responsible for that play. If someone is responsible for that play,
then he/she is "guilty" in my sense as far as the soccer refereeing is
concerned.

	The point I tried to make in my previous postings was that
only physically recognizable fact (which we can see/hear, etc..) , and
what the line referees and the main referee can see and infer are used
for deciding the graveness of a foul. Note the word ``infer''. Nobody
said that the refereeing is an exact science. All the TV cameras we
can place around the field would not replace a human referee. And the
presense of human referee makes many, many things unanswered.

	On TV, I have seen many players of the world given red card,
yellow card for the actions which they probably didn't intended, but
in reality resulted in tripped opponent player, kicked player, or even
punched players, or even FAKED injury.

	Again, all I can say is it was just a tough luck for the
Iranian team. I can only hope they play well in the next round of
World Cup regional selection matches.

	I believe if you ever played the role of the main referee
between teams which you have never met before in a somewhat semiformal
arrangement, you would find it easy to understand the point I try to
make. I did before and I know how tough it can be to maintain order.

	So I support the referee's decision. If it had been a Japanese
player, I would have supported the referee's position although I might
make disparaging remakrs for a while, but I would have called the
PLAYER the most stupid player in the world thereafter.

ishikawa
Newsgroups: fj.life.in-japan