Newsgroups: alt.callahans

In alt.callahans, SG.MML@isumvs.iastate.edu (M. Loughin) writes:

daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
>In alt.callahans, turner@reed.edu (another face in the mirror) writes:
>>
>>> Caithelin is at it again...
>>>
>>> >[Marie]
>>> >True, you are not a peer of the President.  But you *are* the peer
>>> >of men at your social level.  Let's use a very trivial example.
>>> >I play volleyball.  I'm okay at it.  I have female friends who
>>> >are excellent players.  When they play with men, most of whom
>>> >are not as good at it as the woman, many men will virtually push
>>> >the woman out of the way so they can hit the ball.  It seems
>>> >obvious to the man that his bad play on the ball *must* be better
>>> >than anything the woman can do.  He assumes this as a man.
>>
>>This paragraph is extremely sexist, and I find it offensive.
>>The men you know may do this, but this generalization is the
>>very essence of sexism.

>Is this a generalization?  I did not say, nor mean to imply, that
>even a majority of men act this way.  In fact, I said "many men."
>I have been playing volleyball for 5 years in two different states,
>in three different leagues, and I see it over and over.  In cases
>where I have heard such men asked why they behaved this way, they
>reply something to the effect that "she wasn't going to get it."
>Or they get defensive.  They often repeat the behavior after someone
>has taken them to task -- they just don't believe the woman can
>play.  They *will* learn after either strong words from the
>woman (see bellow) or if a fellow male on the team has a chat
>with him.  Personally, I am more likely to give a dirty look
>the first time, make a small comment/suggestion the second time, and
>shove him out of the way the third time.

Ah, you know, I read that paragraph a couple time and saw the first
reference and missed the second.  You did in FACT say many, and
my selective vision missed it.  Yes, I agree, this reverses my
conclusion, because I grant that many men do this.

>Also, give me a little credit for powers of observation.  I don't
>jump to the conclusion on the first violation.  I look to see if
>it's repeated agains the men on the team.  Also, these are
>frequently *good* volleyball players, who know how the game works
>and know what their responsibilities are.  Consistent violations
>in these cases are *not* due to type-A lack of control.

Well, I would disagree.  I think they are a consequence of type A
behavior.  This kind of agressive assumption of greater confidence
is a funcion of naturally agressive people who also have little
past experience in sensitivity.

>>In fact he might if he is the type of person you are suggesting and
>>if the man he would be pushing fits certain physical stereotypes.
>>You are using examples of pushy, type A people to generalize about
>>all men.

>Did I say *all men*?  Jumping to conclusions is bad for your
>blood pressure.

I am perfectly calm.  I misconstrued.  

>>> >I have seen this very example happen more times than I can count.
>>>
>>> "I have to admit I've seen this example many times, had it happen to me for
>>> that matter...my response, "You hit a ball in my area one more time and I'm
>>> going to elbow you in an unpleasant place, now knock it off."

>Notice that the quote, above, is from a woman other than myself.
>Is she also sexist?

I will back off of that assertion, but I will reiterate the 
rhetorical suggestion that I made to this quote that
deliberate and damaging violence is unacceptable and not
terribly wise.

>  Or is it possible that this is a behavior
>of some men towards women when they participate in co-rec sports.
>Is it possible that you do not notice it because it doesn't
>effect you?

No, this is not at all possible.  I notice the behavior myself.
I was objecting to what I thought was a suggestion that this
behavior is universal.  I'll give you another little clue
and confession.  I have done this myself in the past, I work
to avoid it, and if I was aware that this action really
bothered someone I would feel really bad about it.  Even
big bad men are capable of feeling bad about behaving badly.

>Doug, when(if) you play volleyball, you probably behave yourself.

No, Marie, let me indict myself.  Many times when I am
playing volleyball I do want to do well, and if I percieve that
someone is not pulling their weight, I will try to cover for them.
It has little to do with sex, however, since I recognize that
there are a HELL of a lot of women who are vastly superior
to me athletically.  But I cannot deny a certain tendency
to assume that the average woman will not be as good as me.
I am guilty as charged.  But I am capable of understanding
unacceptable behavior, and despite my type A, even if a 
PERSON really IS missing a lot of plays, I will merely let
it go.

>However, you may not notice when someone else is misbehaving in
>the manner I am talking about.

I cannot claim to see all sexist behavior in society, but I am
aware of this one.

>  Afterall, it doesn't effect you.

No.  This is ABSOLUTELY FALSE!  IT DOES AFFECT ME!   Why?
It affects me because I see it happen, and I can figure out
how the recipient feels, and even though I am just a cave
man, I have the ability to emote.  I am aware of it and it
bothers me. 

>Almost every woman I have played volleyball with has had this
>complaint.  (I would say "every woman" with some confidence, but
>I haven't talked to all of them about it.)   

And every undersized male that went through PE in high school
has experienced it as well.

>They can't all be sexist, like me, can they ;-)?

Depends on what conclusions they draw.  I admit that in this situation
in your case, I made a mistake. 

doug
Newsgroups: alt.callahans