From: slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer)
Subject: Re: Fetal tissue research, Nathanson, etc.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 04:10:34 GMT

chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:

>slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer) writes:
>> kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>>> slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer) writes:
>>>> chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:

>[--deletia--]


>> a piece of evidence which ANSWERS the  "question" you pose above and
>> which merely PROVES ME CORRECT.  You also deleted the response which
>> I gave, the response which showed both Dr. Koonz and Chris to be in 
>> error.

>It doesn't prove you correct at all, Mr. Kellmeyer.

>	A staff officer in the SS estimated that in 1936 as many as 500,000
>	abortions had been performed.  "The fact that many abortions are
>	committed in the racially most valuable circles," he reported, defied
>	social planners.  "If these abortions could be prevented, in twenty
>	years we would have an additional two hundred regiments.

>> Both Koonz and Brennan agree:  500,000 abortions in 1930's Germany.

>Brennan's conclusion:  The Nazis were pro-choice.
>Koonz's conclusion:  The Nazis were anti-abortion.
>Probable synthesis:  The Nazis were hypocrites.  (So what else is new?)

>Addams Family table manners.  What does this have to do with abortion?

Oh, you're right, Chris.  What am *I* thinking, posting per capita abortion
rates for Germany and the US?  It's not like per capita abortion rates
have ANYTHING to do with abortion.  I should only discuss such figures
when the subject of Belgian waffles come up.  I'm terribly sorry.

>[--number crunching deleted--]

Number crunching re-inserted.  
500,000 abortions in Nazi Germany, with a population of 35 to 37 million.
1.6 million abortions in 1980's US, with a pop. of 255 million.

"Illegal" abortion in Germany was occurring at *TWICE* the rate of LEGAL
abortion in present-day America.

>> Which means the putatively illegal abortions in Germany were occuring at
>>                                *TWICE*
>>             the rate of LEGAL abortion in the US today.

>Is it possible, Steve, that in the midst of a depression there were many more
>women per capita who could not support another baby?

But, Chris, you're trying to assert that the Nazis were rabidly going after
every Aryan woman who DARED have an abortion!  Yet these persecuted Aryan
women managed to get TWICE as many abortions as free American woman get
in a country where it's legal on demand.  Don't you see just the slightest
skosch of inconsistency there?  Just the teeniest bit?  No little alarms
are going off in your head saying "Wow, I wonder how these terribly 
persecuted Aryan women managed to find enough abortionists to get TWICE 
as many abortions as American women get today?"  or "Man, how many 
abortionists did these Nazi creeps really manage to lock up, considering
the incredible per capita slicing and cutting here?"  or "Good golly,
with all those back alley abortions, ain't it amazing that the female
mortality rate didn't go through the f*@king roof?"

Even assuming your remark about a depression was correct (it isn't - the
worst years were around 1930.  By 1936 employment was not remarkably bad)
WHERE THE HELL WOULD THEY FIND THE ABORTIONISTS?!?!?!
The Nazis are supposed to have jailed everyone, according to you.

>[--more deletia--]

>> The Nazis were PRO-abortion for "inferior" races.

>Agreed.

>> They SAID they were anti-abortion for the Aryan race, but when you actually 
>> check what they DID about it, it's bloody obvious that they didn't give a
>> damn.

>Why all the moaning about "additional two hundred regiments," then?

Yeah, one officer moaning.  And no one in the Nazi regime doing squat 
about the cause.  As I've said in the past, there is a tremendous 
difference between what people SAY they do and what they do.  If you
want to be a historian, you make a note about what they said, then you
make a note about what they did, and you compare the two.  If they said
one thing consistently, but did another thing consistently, you assume
that their agenda is indicated by what they DID, not what they SAID.

He was moaning because he knew no one in the regime was going to do anything
that would get him those additional two hundred regiments.

>> They were mouthing propaganda about being tough on crime (e.g. abortion)
>> when, in fact, they didn't do more than make an occasional, well-publicized,
>> raid to keep their white-collar supporters happy.

>Ah!  On what pretext did they make these raids, Mr. Kellmeyer?

Well, read the sentence right above your question.  If pretext is all 
that matters to you - if action matters not at all, then you won't mind
how many clinics OR blocks, as long as we give you the right pretext, hmmmm?

>[--the rest deleted--]

Convenient.  You deleted the figures from the Nazis own source material,
which shows that the highest number of arrests and convictions of 
abortionists took place under the Weimar regime, NOT under the Nazis.
You deleted the source material, compiled by the Nazis themselves, which
showed the rate of abortion arrests DROPPED EVERY YEAR, once the Nazis
took power.

Explain to me again about intellectual blind spots, Chris.

>-- 
>Chris Lyman -  a personal        /   "I belong to no organized
>opinion for every occasion       /   political party.  I am a
>email: chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov    /   Democrat." -- Will Rogers

Steve Kellmeyer
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:28206 alt.politics.homosexuality:5075