From: kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 21 Jul 92 11:07:31 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Jul21.120653.25543@linus.mitre.org>, heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
> In article <12363@inews.intel.com> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>
>>I wont insinuate that you do any of these things. I know that I personally do
>>some of them. As a taxpaying citizen of the US, I am responsible for some,
>>like oppresion of the third world.
> 
> *You* may choose to bear the responsibility of the oppression of the
> third world on *your* shoulders, but *I* do not choose to do so.  *I*
> have not *personally* oppressed any third world nation... thus, *I* do
> not want to be blamed for it.

Jeff, is there something deeply personal about this issue?  You seem
really invested in it, and I don't understand why.  It seems to me
that the responsibility for the things you listed are shared by many
of us.  Some are more directly responsible than others.  For me,
realizing that I played a part in all of this helped me to change my
behavior.  

If you need an ear, feel free to e-mail me. 

> What about evolution?  Male agression was bred into us over the
> millenia because it helped perpetuate the species, and now, we are to
> throw it all away in the blink of an eye because it's Politically
> Incorrect.  Don't get me wrong -- I do not for a moment condone rape,
> spousal abuse, discrimination based on gender, etc., all of which I
> view as crimes.  However, I believe it is arrogant for the human race
> to suddenly devalue everything that nature bred into us over centuries
> of evolution.

I am not so sure that agression was bred into us.  At least not as a
primary way of interacting with the world.  I think we were bred to
get attention.  I think our society is largely hedonic, and agression
is the exception of male behavior, not the rule. 

What agression is that you are condoning?  I notice you don't really
say. 

 
> If *you*, by your *personal* lifestyle, cannot convince your children
> that you are not an oppressor, then you're not doing enough.  But it's
> not your children you should be concerned with here.  The people to
> worry about are those who barely know you, but still label you as an
> oppressor, because of the way you look.  It's a form of discrimination
> that is just as heinous as the traditional forms, and yet people still
> do not seem to understand.

Maybe because I have not been the recipient of this descrimination
very often.  There was the time I walked into a feminist book store,
and everyone went kind of quiet and watched me for a while.  Later I
learned most of the women who worked there or frequented there were
recovering from physically abusive relationships.  Men made them
nervous.  Who could tell if I was okay or an abusive spouse looking
for my wife.  I wasn't asked to leave.  I was just watched closely.

Even I treat men with more caution than I do women.  I don't know how
heinous this discrimination is, I just don't trust men very much.  In
general I expect white men to be oblivious to the pain and suffering
they cause, the fear they generate.  They just don't seem to see it.
So I don't trust them.  


-- 
___________________________________________________________________________

Stephen R. Figgins           |  There was an old woman
kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   |  Who lived under the hill 
PO Box 1244                  |  And if she's not gone 
Lawrence, KS 66044	     |  She lives there still
___________________________________________________________________________
 
From: wells@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Wells)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:21:26 GMT
Subject: Re: FAQ list?
Organization: Zanzor of the CLOUDS