HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Date: 18 Dec 92 00:26:26 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <1992Dec14.134054.8600@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>
>I don't know who took over SYNTH-L so this is not possible. What's wrong
>with holding a revote and both sides agreeing beyond all recall that the
>new vote stands? (And don't cite guidelines)

You could take over SYNTH-L if you are so concerned.

What's wrong with holding a revote?  It sets a bad precedent.  If no
adequate grounds have been presented for invalidating the previous vote
and a revote is allowed, then EVERY group creation/rename will become
subject to multiple votes.

IMHO, adequate grounds have NOT been established for invalidating
the previous vote.  From the discussion that has been taking place
over the last few weeks, I would say that this opinion has clearly
been in the majority.

You yourself said that part of the problem was that you had no idea 
that it would turn out that way so you didn't do all you could to get 
votes for your side.  To that I say, if you didn't think it worth the 
effort at the time, too bad.  Bush lost too.

As for the "inadequate notification" claim, I believe that has been
clearly refuted.

>There's other news admins who are keeping the old name, and who aren't 
>listening to this group at all. No I don't have any proof...but it's
>reasonable to assume given email I've gotten and posts I've seen.

Then those news admins are not doing their job.

>Half of being smart is knowing what you're dumb at.

You should listen to your signature.


		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"186,000 mi/sec.  Not just a good idea, it's the LAW!"
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<14DEC199210383243@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov>
	<EMCGUIRE.92Dec15083301@fuller.intellection.com>
	<id.V2WV.CO7@ferranti.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:30:08 GMT

In article <id.V2WV.CO7@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:

   You should only vote on a group if (a) you are interested in the
   group and expect to read it, or (b) you think there is something
   flawed about the proposal other than interest level.

Any proposal is flawed which does not include a rationale showing that
sufficient traffic on the topic exists to justify creating a newsgroup
instead of a mailing list.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:36:29 GMT

In article <8111@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>Sorry, but the Guidelines are how things get done in the realm of the Usenet
>group system. You _can't_ unilaterally demand that they be tossed out any more
>than you can demand that you be allowed to dictate who takes the oath of
>office on 20 January 1993. (Well, actually, you can, and are, but you'll be
>just as widely ignored.)

Actually, the Guidelines contain a clause about extraordinary circumstances.
If someone claims that the current situation is an extraordinary circumstance
where typical procedures should not be followed, it is incorrect to speak of
him as not wanting to do things according to the Guidelines, simply because
the Guidelines themselves say that you don't always do things according to the
Guidelines.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: talk.politics.patriot
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:52:04 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

nareid@due.unit.no (Helge Nareid) wrote:
> thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>> brians@atlastele.com (Brian Sheets) writes:
>>> I would like to propose a newsgroup for the patriot movement in the U.S.
>>> This would include discussions on rights violations by legislation, gold 
>>> and silver as payment for debts, freedom organizations and many other
>>> basic US Constitutional topics.
>> I'm all for it, if it keeps the loonies in one place.
> And put it in the us.* hierarchy, so those of us outside the U.S. won't
> be bothered.

NO NO NO!!!  This is a golden opportunity - we should fall on our knees and
give thanks to Brian for proposing a group name that *doesn't* indicate in
any way that only US lunacies would be permitted.  A common meeting ground
for the talk.politics.guns crowd, Hasan Mutlu, Irish republicans, Croatian
rightists, Greeks wanting to annex Macedonia and Dave Yaddalee boosting the
British monarchy from Canada.  I can hardly wait.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:23:04 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Dec14.220327.12862@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
|> 
|> All ONE of them?

That is quite sufficient for anyone paying attention.

BTW, you *still* haven't said how you are going to *make* people read an article.

|> How about some net history? How about posting the articles more frequently?

The level of posting of such articles in specialty groups is about right
right now.  More would start to make them irritating, and *more* prone to being
ignored.

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:43:02 GMT

rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>This is not "evidence".  The first claim, that "The subject line was
>misleading" is an opinion basesd on evidence (what the subject line
>actually said).  My opinion is is that is was not misleading.  Neither
>point of view (for that is what they are) is "evidence".

Well...by that logic the claim that "ignorance caused the low voter
turnout" is an opinion based on evidence and is not a fact that
can be brought up either. The claim that "the vote represented 
the will of usenet" is in the same boad.

>I am still waiting for evidence -- not opinions, not guesses, but
>evidence -- in support of your claims to be produced.

By your logic, neither of us has any evidence to use.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today.  There might be a
law against it by that time.
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config,alt.folklore.computers,alt.fan.john-palmer
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 13:36:31 GMT

klein@egr.msu.edu (Jeffrey Klein) writes:

>In article <scs.724598988@hela.iti.org> scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons) writes:
>>
>>Before getting too excited, it's worth doing a bit of research . . .

>Well, there was a cancel message sent.
>Here's how it looked from umass.

>>Control: newgroup comp.society.folklore
>>Newsgroups: alt.config,comp.society.folklore.ctl
>>Path: umassd.edu!nic.umass.edu!caen!destroyer!Tygra.Michigan.COM!news

That's not a cancel, that's another newgroup setting it back.  It
would have left the original message intact.
-- 
	"You can't get here from here."
Xref: sparky news.groups:24282 alt.native:1405
From: michael@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Michael of Nebadon)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: STRAW VOTE ON NAME FOR NATIVE AMERICANS NEWSGROUP
Date: 14 Dec 92 17:19:11 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <1992Dec12.205204.11039@spdcc.com>
        gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
>In article <Bz49K9.G9K@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>       ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleen S. Davis) writes:
>
>> ...Mike has also kept the discussions on track.
>
>He has also been making every effort possible to avoid a flame war,
>and deserves to be commended.

I couldn't agree more.

>> My opinion on the name TODAY is that there might be value in creating
>> a group called soc.culture.native or soc.culture.indigenous that would
>> encompass all of the indigenous populations of the world.
>
>I like this idea, and could support either "soc.culture.native" or
>"soc.culture.indigenous."  I prefer the former name, since it is easier
>to type, and some people have a hard time spelling the word "indigenous"
>correctly.

Like Karleen, my position isn't etched in stone, but between the two
choices I'd prefer "soc.culture.indigenous." This neatly sidesteps the
"I'm a native, too!" objection which might otherwise nix the creation
of a valuable group. The "soc.culture.aboriginal" name mentioned by
someone in another post would also work in that regard. It was also
mentiond in another post that the dictionary definition for aboriginal
is more applicable than the definition for indigenous. IMHO, current
current common usage (at least in the U.S.) would seem to favor
indigenous, however (for example, indigenous has turned up repeatedly
in this new group discussion), so I'd support either one.

As far as spelling goes, I don't know how mailing list readers might
be affected by this, but newsreader users shouldn't have much of a problem.
If you don't want to do partial search for the parts you *can* spell
you could always move it towards the beginning of your .newsrc to avoid
the problem altogether (unless I'm missing the point of the difficulty...
it wouldn't be the first time. ;-) ).

michael@afterlife.ncsc.mil
From: karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Date: 12 Dec 1992 01:54:19 GMT
Organization: Mindcraft, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu

In article <Bz4D74.6ED@rice.edu> cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
writes:

>I'm about ready to formally propose the darn thing just to bring the
>issue to an end.

Which is exactly why news.announce.newgroups is moderated.
Such a request will, if the moderator is doing his job,
be rejected immediately as frivolous and contrary to
the guidelines, which suggest a six-month cooling-off
period before an attempt to overturn the result of a
valid vote.
--

    Chuck Karish          karish@mindcraft.com
    (415) 323-9000 x117   karish@pangea.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:09:25 GMT

In article <EMCGUIRE.92Dec15083301@fuller.intellection.com> emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
> More accurately, I try to vote vote on all proposals,

You shouldn't do that. You should only vote on a group if (a) you are
interested in the group and expect to read it, or (b) you think there is
something flawed about the proposal other than interest level.

Why? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE VOTE IS DESIGNED TO MEASURE. If you vote on
any other basis, your vote is simply noise in the sample and may be safely
ignored.

I think, as system administrator, I can safely ignore any input from *you*
on the topic, and in the future will delete your name from the voter list
before deciding to carry any groups. I suggest other news admins do the same.
You are, of course, welcome to do the same at your site.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                            `-_-'
Ferranti International Controls Corporation                'U` 
Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012 USA
+1 713 274 5180                            "Zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur?"
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:45:10 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Dec10.150844.7352@bagend.uucp>, jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) writes:
> dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
> >
> >I smell a messiah complex at work here. 
> 
> Get down off of the cross, Dave.  We need the wood for a weeny roast.

Well, we've already got the weeny [sic] as long as Dave Hayes is
here.....

:) 

-- 
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 - or - ..uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave                      |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
                                                         | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Keywords: native, straw vote, concensus
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:33:31 GMT

ETHICAL QUESTION REGARDING STRAW VOTES

I have been chomping at the bit to campaign amongst all
my net friends to vote for the name of the newsgroup
that I like, but I am told that campaigning for these
votes is maybe unethical.

I would like to hear opinions about this.  So far, I have
asked 5 friends for help (although one voted for another
name, which says something about the dismal quality of my
friendships, I guess).  Should I not campaign?  Should I 
cast out these five votes?

Thanks, folks.

Mike


==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
"Where does the power come from to see the race to its end?"
				Eric Liddell "Chariots of Fire"
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native.american
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:32:35 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.115804.16476@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>
	idoy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:

> ...
> one name really hasn't given anybody any grief:   soc.culture.native

I think that "soc.culture.native" would be an ideal name for the present.
It will let us encourage an international perspective and subject matter,
and garner support from the net in broader terms, particularly due to 1993
having been designated "The Year of Indigenous People(s)."  We can, if
there is a need, later create newsgroups under the "soc.culture.native"
hierarchy (such as "soc.culture.native.american").

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:31:46 GMT

karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>It would be harder, and that's just the point.  Your
>whole campaign is based on the premise that many more
>people would participate in usenet votes if they knew
>about them.  

Ah. Not just know about them, but the ramifications to
their newsreading day should the vote pass.

>When someone answers one of your challenges, you respond
>by setting unreasonable standards of proof.  The challenge
>in response is entirely approriate.

I don't think you can prove anything, myself, unless it is
strictly mathematical.

>OK, I'll prove the assertion to the extent that it can
>be proved.  I'll present as fact statements that have
>been accepted by the participants in the discussion thus far.

Here's the rebut...

>  - The CFV was posted several times to rec.music.synth.

Out of an average of 75 articles per day...assuming 4 CFV's
were posted over 30 days that's in the fractional percentages
of the articles there.

>    The ballot (CFV article) popped up in front of their
>    noses unless they chose to prevent it from doing so.

Along with 75 other messages (asuming you read faithfully every day)
and since CFV can mean "Controlled Frequency Voltage" and is one
in over a hundred acronyms used on r.m.s...it's more likely to
be missed.

>This is the second time I've answered one of your idiotic
>demands for Truth.  You get that from religion, not from
>philosophy or politics and most emphatically not from
>usenet.

How do you know where I get that? And who's truth do you think
I am asking for?

>When will you tell us how to fix usenet, Dave?  If you
>see the same news.groups articles that I do, you get
>about three requests a day to put up or shut up.

Go away and come back when I do...or by your own criterion
you are wasting your time.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

The most important service rendered by the press is that of educating people to
approach printed matter with distrust. 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gothick@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Gothick)
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:51:03 GMT


msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:

[voting deleted]

>(c) 3 people who each voted once or twice each way, with no clear
>    statement that the later vote was intended as a correction:
>		
>      Drucker     mertwig!xyzzy@uunet.UU.NET (Daniel Drucker)

*snigger*  Mr. Wizard strikes again....

>Still with me?  Then thank you for reading, and may you have a Merry
>Christmas.

Merry Christmas everyone!

>-- 
>Mark Brader		   "Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing."
>SoftQuad Inc., Toronto     "Doing *anything* is worse than doing nothing!"
>utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com		     -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER

>This article is in the public domain.

Matt

-- 
 Matthew B. M. Gibson:
 gothick@dcs.warwick.ac.uk - mgibson@nyx.cs.du.edu -  csudo@csv.warwick.ac.uk
 "Great.  I'm a million miles from home, about to be killed, with a 
  gung-ho iguana who tells me to relax"
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.<whatever>.*
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<1992Dec17.043327.12474@gnosys.svle.ma.us>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:04:08 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.043327.12474@gnosys.svle.ma.us> gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

   Well, the mailing list is moderated, so the flamewars and junk
   postings will get rejected by the moderator, who will be
   responsible for erecting and maintaining a flame-resistant barrier
   :-) between the two entities.

In that case, why not make soc.culture.<whatever>.announce a moderated
group and establish the moderator address as NATIVE-L@site?

I can't tell if you meant that /all/ the mailing lists are moderated.
If NATCHAT is moderated, do the same thing with
soc.culture.<whatever>.talk; otherwise, mirror them.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:07:03 GMT

swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen) writes:
>If you can't *say* something, don't bother to post.

I did. You didn't listen.

>You split the group by not accepting the vote.  If the vote had been accepted
>by you, the group would have remained intact due to the normal transition
>mechanism.

I did no such thing. The group was renamed by someone else, and a "consensus"
action. I merely pointed out that I wouldn't honor it. The initiation of the
action came from those who desired the rename. 

>Thus, I stand by the statement - *you* are responsible, not anyone else.

*poing*
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will
pick himself up and continue.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: soc.culture.aboriginal.american?
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<Bz02nq.64p@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 16:22:32 GMT

In article <Bz02nq.64p@news.cso.uiuc.edu> StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl) writes:

   Unfortunately, "Amerindian" is a misnomer.  The native people of the
   American continents are NOT related to the people of the Indian 
   subcontinent.

I am completely sympathetic if the proponents of the new group prefer
some other word.  New groups should be named by consensus of the
proponents, guided by experienced news admins such as the people on
the mailing list <group-advice@uunet.uu.net>.

On the other hand, there is no denying the meaning of the word.  It
means an aboriginal American.  There are other words which were coined
based on ignorance, but they mean what they mean.  A name is never
intrinsically a misnomer; it is a misnomer if you misapply it.
Calling an east Indian an Amerindian would be a misnomer.

I have a suggestion for the name of the group.  I prefer "aboriginal"
to "native" to avoid the "hey, I was born here, too!" dispute.  I used
to live near the Canadian border, and noticed that Canadian media
prefer "aborigines" over "Indians."  I thought it was an improvement.
Thus "s.c.aboriginal.american".  This could easily be extended to
future aboriginal cultural groups, and also parallels the other
"*.american" groups.

Regards, Ed
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native.american
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:14:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.202641.9983@spdcc.com> gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

>Just as importantly, no one uses the term "American Native" to refer
>to the First Peoples of the American continent, so there is no justi-
>fication based on common usage of the term.

Common usage of the term "Native American," as opposed to "American
Native," shouldn't have anything to do with it at all.  In fact,
"soc.culture.native.american" seems to me more damaging a name because
it's misleading about the structure of the Usenet namespace, in which
dots seperate levels of generality and not just words (cf.
alt.sexual.abuse.recovery).

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups