From: akif@sequent.com (Aki Fleshler)
Subject: Re: Aikido and Randori
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 16:50:05 GMT

[It's hard to know what to snip -- this is a great discussion !!! -- akif]

Two comments: 
	On "edge" -- 

		Q: What should be your attitude when inserting the needles?
		A: As if standing at the cliff's edge, facing an angry tiger.

			-- *Nei Ching* (Book of the Yellow Emperor),
				5000 year Chines old classic on medicine
				[roughly remembered[

		Or, as we say in English:

			The surgeon's knife can kill or cure.

		So medicine too is a dance of life at the edge of death.
		In many martial traditions, it is normal/required to 
		learn both. 

		Let's put it another way: at the highest level of a martial
		(or medical !) encounter, you should be *free* to choose
		life or death at any given moment. I think this requires
		the freedom of dance. The comment about dance's "needs for 
		self-expression and appearance overall" and its unconcern
		with mortal danger is very Eurocentric and High Art-centric: 
		it doesn't reflect the aesthetics of much tribal and ritual 
		dance from around the globe. Check out the Native American
		Sun Dance. 

	On "form" vs "doing what is spontaneously appropriate" (mushin,
	I believe) --

		Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form.

			-- [and if you see the guy that wrote that,
			kill him.]


In article <1992Jul22.152834.3210@PA.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>
>Some very interesting thoughts from Steve Gombosi and James R. Quaranta Jr.) 
>on dance and martial arts.  
>
>There is very distinctly in my mind an element of martial craft that is
>indistinguishable from dance.  And an element that makes it completely
>different from *most* forms of dance  --  the temporary complete disregard 
>for the safety of the partner and appearance of the movements, in order
>to survive the fight.
>
>Traditional Capoeira, in my mind, can legitimately claim to be both
>a dance form and a martial craft form, since its original intent is
>deadly serious with real personal survival and freedom at stake.
>
>You could compare this psychological intensity *somewhat* to moments of pure 
>intense involvement in general in many non-fighting activities, but there is 
>an important difference in martial craft.  The fighter faces a very real
>knockout or injury, and it colors his/her entire craft, not just the
>moments of intense flow.  The dancer's craft is more colored by the
>needs for self-expression and appearance overall than the need to survive.
>If you take away that difference in remembering what you came to train for, 
>then you might as well just call your martial craft a pure dance form.
>
>
>>>SIgh.. IS this just totaly weird? and Im comming from outerspace?
>>>Or do some other people share some of this same viewpot/perspective on it??
>> 
>>Nope. I don't think it's weird at all. I think one of the primary
>>reasons for the emphasis on Zen in Japanese martial arts is to help
>>attain precisely the state you have described - where your actions
>>flow naturally from the circumstances, regardless of the danger of
>>the situation. I *think* what others were objecting to was the lack of
>>"intention" (for want of a better word) on the part of the participants.
>>Training ought to feel a little dangerous...if it doesn't, you're likely
>>to go to pieces when the real thing happens. If that "edge" is there in
>>your regular practice, then you *can* learn to disregard the danger.
>>The whole point, I suppose, is to learn to dance when your opponent isn't
>>planning on dancing ;-) (I prefer the Tomari two-step combined with
>>the Shuri shuffle, myself ;-) ).


-- 
Aki Fleshler                                  * akif@sequent.com
Sequent Computer Systems Inc.                 * (503) 578-4570
15450 SW Koll Parkway, RHE2-775               * FAX (503) 578-7569
Beaverton OR 97006-6063                       *