From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Date: 15 Oct 92 10:29:28 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology

In article <4053@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>In article <1bdatgINNhb4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>>
>>I wish to correct just a few of Ms. Aldoubosh's errors.
>
>Thanks for your politically correct formality :-).
>
>>In a previous article, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor
>>Aldoubosh) says:
>>
>>>I guess Mr. Stein wouldn't say how many Palestinians have been murdered
>>>by his fellow Israelis ...
>>
>>Being an American, I do not have "fellow Israelis."
>
>But isn't Israel you homeland?  Aren't Israelis your people?  Don't
>you support the government of Israel completely and fully?  (Or is
>it just convenient to disown them as you like ... I don't know YOU
>tell me!)
>
>>>either through Undercover Squads or through the
>>>typical terrorist measures used by the Occupational Forces to squash
>>>the intefadeh.
>>
>>The numbers I estimated included those Arabs who died while violently
>>resisting capture by the undercover squads.  Since there are no "typical
>>terrorist measures" used by the IDF, the latter figure is obviously 0.
>
>But you did *not* say this in your former posting.  You did not separate
>the two factors - you just said that (to memory) the number of Palestinians
>who died in the intefada were at the hands of other Palestinians and you
>did not even mention Israeli undercover terrorist squads.  Furthermore, you
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
Excuse me, Anisa. Your definition of terrorism is highly imaginative.
You may not like their actions and methods but throwing a buzzword of
Terror anywhere. This people are not targeting civilian population that
does not have any vconnection to the struggle, instead they try to
eliminate the gangs of carefully-pinpointed agitators with lots of blood 
on their hand. This is counter-sunversive operation and not even
maginally close to terrorism. The "hunted" men are heavily armed and
often open fire on the soldiers. 


>justified Israel's totalitarian and inhumanitarian policies on Palestinians
>in the occupied territories by suggesting that the Palestinians who oppose
>this are the ones to blame for their deaths.  That is pretty damn racist,

Your easy on buzzwords Anisa, where excatly do you see Racism?
You have to understand that the Arabs in the territories are not
engaging a non-violent campeign in the territories. They are running
one of the cruelest bloody campeigns in history and they would not 
have been tolerated in ANY other (western and certainly not Arab).

I dare say that if the Jews were 1/100 as insolent and rebelious in 
any Arab country there wouldn't have been a single Jew surviving
there. I think that if the Palestinian would have tried to pull their
tricks in an Arab country they would have suffered much harsher and
swifter measures. The Intifada would have been crashed in weeks in even
the most benign Arab countries.

I think that people like you seem to project your own vices into others
(inhumanitarian and totalitarian).

>Mr. Stein.  And I would like you to pick up any newspaper and magazine from
>the time of the intefada to now to see what kind of tactics the "IDF" uses.
>Don't you consider death squads to be a terrorist measure?  How about
>confiscatory taxes?  Exile?

Well, my dear Anisa. I think that any sane government would use these 
methods against those who try to throw her out. Need I mention Britain
in Northern Ireland/Spain in the Basque/ Italy and the Red Brigades.
Terrorism must be fought! What do you expect the Israelis to give you
the throats to cut? 

Death Squads does not exist in the territories.  Period!

You yourself cited the Number 66 of expulsions in over 4 years. Does
this look to you an overreaction? All these expulsions are handpicked
troublemakers who agitate and bring havoc to their fellow Arabs.

>
>>>It's always
>>>better to blame fellow Arabs and to suggest that their deaths were
>>>caused by rock-throwing children and teenagers, in their resistance to
>>>the Occupation of their homes.
>>
>>There's a saying, "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."  If one
>>wishes to fight violently, then one shouldn't complain if those you are
>>fighting against act to protect themselves.
>
>Protecting themselves?  Protecting themselves!!!  We wish to fight,
>violent if and when necessary, to protect our rights, dignity, and
>self-worth that Israel has almost succeeded in taking away from us!

You wish to fight violent, well what do you expect back? Flowers??
>
>>When children throw rocks, molotov cocktails, etc., it's appropriate to
>>treat them as violent individuals, not innocent children.
>
>And when adults disquise themselves to go committ murder in cold blood,
>shoot to kill defenseless people, demolish the homes of innocent families,
>and arm themselves with deadly weapons to attack rock-throwing children,

I think that heavily armed Palestinians who refuse to stop when ordered
to by soldiers are fair game, sepecially when they shoot first but even
if they don't!

>its appropriate to threat them as violent individuals, not protect them
>and justify their actions as innocent adults.

They are soldiers who are trying to arrest wanted people, their diguise
is a perfectly legitimate tactic.
There were some incidents when some soldiers stepped out of line, this
is indeed very regretful and I wish all these men will be properly
punished but that does not mean that they are terrorists!!!

>Anisa
>
>	"Targets of the death squads are young Palestinians whom the
>	Israeli army considers 'activists', a term that could
>	include any supporter of the intifada."
>						Rachelle Marshall
>


-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast