From: mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine)
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Spanking?
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:31:10 GMT

In reply to my posting on spanking, consequences, and tantrums ...
In article <92209.134321CXF12@psuvm.psu.edu> <CXF12@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>I agree with a previous poster that tantrums are not necessarily "bad", but
>that it is important to teach children to channel their anger or frustration
>in a way that won't hurt someone else.

I, too think that tantrums are not always "bad".  I tend to try to categorize
my kids tantrums into those that are caused by frustration, and those
that are based in rebellion.  For frustration, I try to teach my children
that they can ask for help if they want.  This has actually worked very
well, even with my 19-month-old.  Rebellion, however, is a different problem.
I think the original poster was really defining a rebellious tantrum -- 
every time her friend's son was asked to do something by his mother, he
went into a temper tantrum.  This kind of tantrum I do think is bad, and
requires some action on the part of the parents. 

>However, I wanted to comment on the
>implication that spankings (unlike showers?) bear a logical relationship to
>tantrums.  How does hitting a child bear a logical relationship to having a
>tantrum?

The reason I commented about spanking was that this was a solution that
the mother originally tried, and had given up on.  I did not think that
she had tried it in any way that had a chance of being effective, and
tried to give a different perspective on this approach.  The showers,
even though they do not seem to be a good approach, were effective ...

In terms of spanking being a logical consequence, it isn't.  There is not
really a logical consequence for rebellion, at least an immediate one.
In the long term, rebellion leads to resentment and bitterness, which
*are* destructive to the family relationships, but by the time it builds
up to this stage and is recognized, it is often too late.
(Over-disciplining your children also can have this effect.)

In our family, we spank after rebellious tantrums because we have a rule
with our children that rebellion leads to spanking, and a rebellious
tantrum is treated in the same way as other rebellious acts.  In almost
every other case, we use logical consequences, though.

>Although I have no interest in starting another "spanking war", I
>think that tantrums may be one of the worst situations to try to resolve
>through spankings.  IMO, the people who have most successfully argued their
>position that spankings are appropriate under certain circumstances have
>been those who point to the effectiveness of a spanking when it is administered
>*immediately* for behavior that is potentially dangerous (e.g., running into
>the street without looking for traffic).  Delaying a spanking (as suggested
>above) only further removes the connection between the behavior and the
>punishment.

Spanking immediately after the tantrum is not delaying, so I do not quite
follow your argument here.  My children have never had a problem 
associating the spanking with the rebellion.  Even Anna, the last time
Timmy got spanked, said, "Timmy naughty -- spanking!".

>Additionally, trying to teach a child to control his/her
>anger by hitting him seems to be a good way to model a different but (IMO),
>equally unacceptable behavior -- when someone doesn't do what you want, hit
>him!

Thus far, my children seem to not be learning this.  In their minds,
spanking seems to be quite a different action than hitting.  In fact,
Timmy is a very loving and affectionate child, as is Anna.  I think
it has to do with our overall approach to discipline, though.  Not
only how we spank, but the context in which we spank.  Also in the
broader picture, which focuses on instruction and family conflict
resolution, not on spanking.  Also on the fact that we work hard to
ensure that our children have a real place in the family, and know
that they are very welcome there.

-- Misty