HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kati@glnserv.UUCP (Lady Dragon)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,misc.kids,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: It's just a TV SHOW!
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 14:20:21 CST
Organization: Vermi-net, Houston, Tx. 77098

garnet@borland.com (Garnet Chaney) writes:
> On a slightly different topic, how many have retained old pictures,
> greeting cards, etc. from the days of dating and marriage to the
> exspouse?  What percentage has been kept, and for how long? Does
> remarriage significantly decrease the percentage kept? What about
> preserving things, from those happy starting days with the exspouse,
> for the benefit of children who might later have questions about what
> the early days were like for the mother and father?
>
> - Garnet
> KC6YKE, ARES, S/M CAP

I was married to my ex- for 8 years. I have a photo album that I have saved
because it contains pictures of our daughter from her birth. The wedding rings
I have given to her for her to wear when she is old enough. (They were only the
thin gold bands, not worth much real money.) I don't have any keepsakes but then
I don't really remember that there were any to keep or dispose of. Of course,
that may be due to selective memory. I wouldn't be interested in having any.
I suppose it does help that I am happily married to someone else though.

* * email address: nuchat!xcluud!glnserv!kati * Houston, Texas, USA, Earth * *
From: ssmith@xocolatl.com (Shannon Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: RESULT: misc.legal.family fails 126:28
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 18:28:12 PST
Reply-To: ssmith@xocolatl.com
Organization: Amethyst Systems, Fremont, CA

bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:

-> misc.legal.family (moderated) fails. 126 to 28


Damn.  Sooooooo close!

Bob, please consider going through the process again.  Maybe next
time...
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous)
Subject: was:Ohio Choices; now:Mass Fathers group (CSAM?)
Organization: V. I. Corporation, Northampton, Massachusetts
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:45:03 GMT

Well it seems like there's a need for a Father's rights group in
Massachusetts. I live in Mass. I've never done anything like this
before, but then again I've never before been in the situation
I am now.

The name Child SupportERS Father's Rights was suggested. Sounds good
to me.

I'm willing to do something to get this going. Who else is in?

Mark Charalambous
mc@vicorp.com
From: ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:22:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Fighting the System. How?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: alt.child-support

> ...valuable if someone could show us a little more concretely how to do
> this.

There is one thing you can do.  Talk with your state legislators.  If
you get the chance, when there is a child support or enforcement bill in
process, testify at a state legislative committee hearing.  I've done
that.  Dunno if it did any good but it felt good (afterward).  If enough
people did it, the laws might change.
From: marks@igor.tamri.com (Mark Sequerth)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: KRON, Bay Area, News, DEADBEAT DADS
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:26:20 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA



Tonight on channel four, KRON, they are doing a special on
'Deadbeat Dads'.  The advertisement I heard on the Radio was
insulting.  The ad quoted figures about how fathers just abandon
their children, the figure that was quoted, was surprisingly close 
to the total estimate of children from single parent homes in which
the "mom" has custody.

I intend to watch it, record it, take careful notes, and if what 
I suspect is true, they will 'Deadbeat Dad Bash' for 10 or 15 minutes 
because it is a "Politically correct" thing to do.  I will call the 
station in the morning to ask them why the mothers who withhold visitation
are not looked upon as criminals.  

It's starting to sound like the Geraldo show, and this is the "news".
Tabloid news,  It must be sweeps week.

Mark
From: aa396@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill Henley)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Need to contact Father's Rights group
Date: 6 Nov 1992 23:38:00 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


I would like to make contact with a "Father's Rights" or "Men's
Rights" type group which deals with the absent father's side of
child support issues; particularly one operating in the Cleve-
land, Ohio area.  I am not myself involved in such a situation;
but I am employed by the local child support enforcement agency
in Cleveland and am taking a college course in child support
administration; a class project involves my contacting such an
organization as the above and reporting on its ideas, opinions
and suggestions regarding the administration of child support.
If anyone can put me in contact with such a group it would be
appreciated-- and would be a possible chance for the group
to make its views known to child support authorities.

Please e-mail me if possible, or post here.

-- 
Bill Henley, Assistant Sysop, Science Fiction & Fantasy SIG
ID  aa396
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Political Action (Re: Ohio Choices)
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:11:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.214012.26083@ferrari.nmc.ed.ray.com> smiles@NMC.ED.RAY.COM (Kevin Ruddy) writes:

[...]

>Gee, can you look up
>lobbying organizations under "Lobby" in the Yellow Pages?  Maybe we should
>make one.  CSAM, Child Support Alliance of Massachusetts.

Better:

Child Supporters' Alliance of Massachusetts.

Preempt the deadbeat-dad attacks.

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights
From: idqm400@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Case cite...Due Process
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:02:56 GMT
X-Posted-From: indyvax.iupui.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
From: jsw@cray.com (Jon S. Wood)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Ohio Choices
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:12:53 GMT
Reply-To: jsw@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article 20720200@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM, ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein) writes:
>> How can we get things changed?
>
>Here in Colorado at least, the child support tables are built into the
>state statutes.  So to get them changed you either lobby your state
>legislators or you start a citizen initiative to put the change on the
>state ballot.
>
>Lobbying your legislators is largely ineffective because they are busy
>and tend to accept whatever comes out of committees.  So you really need
>to lobby the committee members in particular.  But they tend to listen to
>"the experts" like Robert Williams and the (female) head of Child Support
>Enforcement and the folks from Social Services.  Good luck!


 The "experts" have the edge in many respects. Most of the testifying
by 'experts' are people whose job depends on it, the child support 
collectors association. 
Wasn't there some guy asking for information for a class he was attending
because he was a collector? It is these special interest groups that
must be thwarted at the committee level. 

There can be several committees who handle these matters. Social services,
family law, and there maybe others. Call your state capital, they are 
your best resourses. 

Two committee persons in Mn that headed them were extremely biased, bigoted
and out of touch in my opinion. Rep. Linda Berglin headed the social services
committee and does everything in her power to thwart NCPs. She is a 
self proclaimed lesbian who had a child through insemination. Thank god
she is no longer serving on that committee. Her office believes that 
men who are getting screwed now deserve it for all the inequity women
suffered previously. The other committee member is a real winner. This
wierdo moved out from Ca and came to Mn. He ran for office as a state
legislature in order to get a job, his family was on welfare. When I called
to talk to him about the outrageous child support amounts set by his
committee he told me his story. He said that his paltry 2X,000 dollar
a year job as a state officeholder and the child support amounts he 
was obligated to pay was no burden. He told me he commuted north
for visitation and was able to a comfortable life style. The catch
is, this lying sack of shit could say that to me over the phone because
he knew I DIDN"T know that he was remarried to a state supreme court justice
who was childless and making 100,000.00 bucks. 
Why of course he could manage to live on 10,000 a year and keep 2 residences.

The jerk is on the political fast track. 

From welfare to power, the Minnesota way!!!!

Meet with those committees with passionate facts. Share your information
with the media. 
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous)
Subject: Re: Divorce, custody, child support, need advice
Keywords: custody, child support
Organization: V. I. Corporation, Northampton, Massachusetts
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:47:40 GMT

yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:

>In article <1992Nov2.173550.10550@vicorp.com> mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous) writes:
>>joel@ssd.intel.com (Joel Clark) writes:
>>
>>>For greatest peace of mind:
>>
>>>	Move back to California (preferably before being served any papers).
>>>	Become self-employed
>>>	Plan on  your taxes doubling.
>>>	Forget your kids, they aren't yours anymore.
>>
>>Whoa! That's pretty radical!
>>No. I don't ontend to give up my kids. If the worst case is that I get
>>jerked around for the next 12 years of my life -- well, so be it. But it
>>won't happen without a fight.
>>
>>--Mark

>	Well your "fight" might be just a mute point.  See the last
>	line of the advice above.  As for "12 years", I presume you
>	mean age 18.  In Mass., it's 23.  So add 5 years.

Yikes! I didn't know that!


>	It gets old when you're remarried and had your 10th
>	anniversary coming up.

>-- 
>	Alan Yasutovich
>	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
>	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
>	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......


--Mark

Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: suth4970@mach1.wlu.ca (Donna Sutherland u)
Subject: child abuse
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 01:33:24 GMT

I am currently working on a research project that deals with
childhood physical abuse.  My research question is:  Is one
isolated incident of physical abuse (intent) more psychologically
damaging then consistent abuse of a lesser extreme?
If anyone has any research or knows of any articles pertaining to
this issue, please contact me.
From: steward@cup.portal.com (John Joseph Deltuvia)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Retroactive Increase in CS
Date: Mon,  9 Nov 92 18:23:55 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Nov6.162230.23760@walter.cray.com>

     Per the Federal Family Support Act of 1988 (which all states were
required to enact enabling legislation for), a modification of a support
order either upward or downward retroactively is illegal.

     Be warned, however, that some judges tend to be *very* confused
either about the law or about obeying the law, and if you get a nutty judge,
you may wind up having to appeal an illegal decision. :/
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Child Support
Date: 8 Nov 92 20:58:10 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 


In the process of getting my foster son's military dependent ID renewed,
I got all the paperwork from the court, including his dad's income status papers
and the court ordered child support.  Since he has been sending whiney letters
complaining about the 'huge' amount of child support he is being assessed, 
I was amused to find out he is only being hit with 15% of his gross income,
which does NOT include the free housing and utilities he is provided.  Also,
since he is military, he gets VERY cheap food at the base BX, free military
flights to whereever he wants to go and very inexpensive entertainment at
the base facilities.  
He also has sent another nasty letter to Mike, accusing Mike of lying about
him, insisting that Mike MUST come to live with him immediately, making
belittling remarks about Mike preferring to live in 'a well-to-do prestigeous
home'.  Wow, that's the first time I've ever been described as well-to-do,
all this time I thought we were just getting by.  Since my husband works
in a factory, and I have what can be described as a 'classified' (as opposed
to professional) job, we are something of a blue collar family......  College
degrees don't always mean you have a professional job!
I did suggest that Mike reply to his dad, after all, he IS his father and
I do not want to cut off the relationship.  But Mike doesn't want to write
back.  And I can't force him to write.  

Sue
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: kaskubar@kirby.mayo.edu (Bruce Kaskubar)
Subject: Re: was:Ohio Choices; now:Mass Fathers group (CSAM?)
Organization: Mayo Foundation, Rochester MN. Campus
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 16:54:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.174503.3528@vicorp.com> mc@vicorp.com (Mark  
Charalambous) writes:
> ...
> I'm willing to do something to get this going. Who else is in?
> ...

Minnesota has at least two groups attempting to improve family law: R-KIDS  
in Minneapolis and Organization for Ongoing Families (OOF) in Rochester.   
(I'm a member of the latter.)  The only answer to improvement seems to be  
public awareness and working with legislators.  Both are difficult: the  
public doesn't understand, the media seems only to cover deadbeat dads as  
though there is no other kind, and it takes extraordinary effort to get  
involved with the law-makers (much less make progress once involvement is  
begun).

Finally, the point, I think, is *not* father's rights.  It's parental  
rights.  Children need both parents in their lives.  It should be about  
recognizing the roles that need to be (allowed to be) played by *both*  
parents  -- something that current family law does not do.

I've only been on the net for a few days (and may only be on for another  
month).  I am amazed (sort of) at the similarity of stories from all over  
the country!  Change is necessary but it will *only* come from the efforts  
of those who know its faults.

Bruce

Of course, these opinions are my own, not those of any other persons or  
institutions whose names may be included herein.
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: child abuse
Date: 7 Nov 92 08:34:40 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <BxBoBo.EE1@mach1.wlu.ca>, suth4970@mach1.wlu.ca (Donna Sutherland u) writes:
> I am currently working on a research project that deals with
> childhood physical abuse.  My research question is:  Is one
> isolated incident of physical abuse (intent) more psychologically
> damaging then consistent abuse of a lesser extreme?
> If anyone has any research or knows of any articles pertaining to
> this issue, please contact me.

I do volunteer work with troubled teens.  I've been an advocate for two
girls (sisters) for the last two years, also have a teenaged foster son.
From what I have seen, emotional neglect and abandonment can be more
emotionally devestating than physical abuse.  I've tried to help girls
who are literally living on the street because to them, it's better than
going home where Daddy (who has custody) has a live-in girl friend who
hates them.  
I also have consoled my foster son whose father wrote to him and said,
'I don't want you'.  


Sue 
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights
From: idqm400@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Misc postings from FREE-L/National Group Address
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:14:41 GMT
X-Posted-From: indyvax.iupui.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Children living with you.
Date: 10 Nov 92 14:27:30 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory


	If you have a child (your own) living with you who is
	for some reason uncontrollable or does not like their
	situation (teenager)  what are your/their options.

	Does "DSS" get involved in cases like these?

	If a parent called someone (like DSS) would the teen be
	removed?  Could they do it of their own request?

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous)
Subject: Fight for sole custody or joint
Organization: V. I. Corporation, Northampton, Massachusetts
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:27:45 GMT


My ex has moved 50 miles away in an attempt to make joint custody that
much more difficult. We're in Mass, in the beginning phases of the divorce. 

I filed for divorce, and asked for custody. My new expensive lawyer puts my 
chances of getting custody around 10%. I've pretty much decided to forget about 
going for sole custody and just go for joint, which is what he advises.

He says there won't be any benefit in trying for sole custody with the
real intention being joint, ie it won't help my chances of getting joint
if I seek sole custody. 

She is not an unfit mother. I would have to build my case on erratic, irrational
behavior that was essentially a result of our relationship. Her irrationality
includes episodes of violence (towards me and perhaps herself). I "could make
a case" for unfit parenting based on some of her actions that impacted the
children directly, but certainly not a real strong one.

I'm not sure if I should go along with my lawyers advice, who says that 
besaically we're fighting for 30% (ie, 70% of the 'situation` is already
determined, all we can fight for is the remaining 30%). He says the court
won't make a decision forcing her to move back to within the last place
of domicile (where I remain), despite the fact that I moved from California
to this area precisely to accomodate her a year and a half ago.

My lawyer is very expensive. I will be going into debt very shortly and
haven't even made a child support payment yet (separation happenned Sep 1).
Obviously, going for sole custody is going to be very expensive, and from
everything I've heard, probably futile.

Is it worth the expense to go for it, even when the cost of failure is going
to be further estrangement (if that's possible) and undoubtedly further
resenetment on her side which will mean more pain of every kind for the
next 15 years of my life?

My lawyer is telling me that we have to get into a cooperative mode in order
to get the best settlement from the court. Ie, the court is more likely to
grant joint custody when there is a measure of cooperation between the
parents. I will concievanly be throwing away my chances for joint custody
if I go for sole custody and fail, if this argument is correct.

I'm resigned to the fact that I'm not going to get justice for the abuses
I sufferred at the hands of my ex, my concern now is for what kind of 
relationship I'm going to have with my children in the future.

Mark
 
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer)
Subject: Re: Divorce, custody, child support, need advice
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 07:56:03 GMT
Keywords: custody, child support

In article <1992Nov5.154740.2336@vicorp.com> mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous) writes:
>yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>
>>	Well your "fight" might be just a mute point.  See the last
>>	line of the advice above.  As for "12 years", I presume you
>>	mean age 18.  In Mass., it's 23.  So add 5 years.
>
>Yikes! I didn't know that!
>
>>	It gets old when you're remarried and had your 10th
>>	anniversary coming up.

Non-custodial parents of Massachusetts (or any other state blatantly
oppressive to non-custodial parents):  You have to start fighting these
laws, you have to direct your anger in constructive ways, you have to
start being seen and heard on these issues.

Paying child support to age 23 is ludicrous.  Obviously, it is assumed
all children in Mass will go to college and that the non-custodial
parents should pay for that expense (something custodial parents and
parents of intact families are not required to do).  This denies equal
protection under the law.  It is also sexist in its intent.  

The local fathers' right group here in central Ohio sued the county
court in 1974 for sexual discrimination (primarily because 100% of all
children were being placed with mothers despite a law that said either
parent could be custodian)--and after the US Supreme Court decided not
to review the case, the local county had to settle.  The settlement:
two judges and one referee had to resign.  The two judges picked to
take their place were endorsed by our group.  The case took 6 years.

Obviously, men's groups and groups for non-custodial women need to
selectively choose example cases to use to fight current laws.
Obviously, logic and reason need to be heard on these issues.  The
legislature can correct these laws too.  I know you are being laid away
in child support expenses, but get organized, get active, talk to other
people who have fought the law and won and start repealing and
overturning these incredibly biased, illogical laws.

Paying child support until the children turn 23 is criminal.

By age 23 I had been an independent student for almost 5 years.  I worked
full-time.  I had been in the National Guard for 3 years.  

And increasing child support as children get older is stupid too.  When
I was 18, my parents gave me $5 per week.  That was my lunch money and
my allowance.  If I wanted money, I had to get a job and work for it.
Which I did.  I also bought all my own clothes from age 16 on.  My
parents were not forced by law to spend anything on me--and even if they
had been, they didn't have it to spend.  

Aaron L. Hoffmeyer
TR@CBNEA.ATT.COM
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Retroactive Increase in CS
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:00:25 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory

In article <6NOV199209173367@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov> edjcb@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Jeff Brown) writes:
>Along with some gnashing of teeth over various child support issues,
>my ex has threatened to attempt collection of what she calls "back
>child support".  We were divorced in 1983 and our decree has not been
>modified since then.  Our order called for $200/mo initially and a
>yearly index for inflation, plus I pay insurance and all uncovered med
>and dental.  I have paid every cent ordered on time and without question.
>
>When the support guidelines changed in 1986 to the income shares BS,
>she could have requested a modification of the order for increased
>support, but she didn't.  She claims now that she did not know she
>could have done this, and that she never got a letter supposedly sent
>by her lawyer advising her of her rights.  She feels now that she has
>grounds to request a retroactive increase in the order.  My lawyer says
>no way.  There don't seem to be any clear precedents, however.
>
>We are now negotiating new support along the guidelines and she'll
>get that starting next month.
>
>My question:  Is a retroactive increase in support possible even though
>the ordered support was paid in full?
>Jeff Brown
>edjcb@scivax.lerc.nasa.gov

	2 weeks ago when I went in, the (woman) judge ordered an increase.
	She, oon her own, specified that it would not be retroactive.
	That was because my ex had filed this thing about 2 years ago.
	Not because anyone was asking for it.  But I guess when you do
	it every day, those issues come to mind even if it doesn't
	occur to others.

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......