Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 08:18:22 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Can Christians be LOST??

Dear All ;

This is initially a reply to Brad Kaiser concerning whether Christians can
lose their Salvation.
It is a polemic based upon the exegesis of Hebrews 10:26-31 and Luke 12:41-48.
I am rather amazed that it is even an issue, for even the most hardcore
of Armenians usually espouse the "Security of Believers" idea.
Well, talley ho!


I.  HEBREWS10:26-31

We need to start with, Hermeneutically speaking, the overall idea of Hebrews
in the first place.  The writer is writing this letter as a deterrant to
Apostasy.  That is his prime directive in this case.
Historically, these Christians were being sorely tempted to return to their
formerJudaism. The writer is trying to instill them with the encouragement
to stick it out and not fall back to the covenantal system which was in the
process of disappearing from religious validity.

Now, the core verses begin with the fearful " ... if we keep on deliberately
sinning ... NO sacrifice is LEFT."
These are scary words, indeed, but we need to look a bit further.
An initial question might be : "Keep on sinning HOW?"
Is this rank and file sins a Christian commits or somethin' of a special
order?

If we look further to v. 35 we see that they are instructed not to throw their
CONFIDENCE away < and this refers to that temptation to go back to Judaism>.
By this time in history, Christians converted from Judaism were being harrassed
harshly by remaining Jews.  The writer even indicates HOW they had FORMERLY
endured public disgrace and confiscation of some of their lands by Jewish
authorities.  This was a real test with real PENALTIES.

This trial of being tempted to apostasize was the impetus the writer needed
to show his listeners that Christ was the TRUE REALITY versus the SHADOW
realityof the former Judaism (10:1-4).

The CONTEXT for all of this is seen in Hebrews 6:4-9 versus 6:9-12.
In verses 4-9, are those who "crucify" Christ for a second time by
temporarily professing Christ and then later subjecting His name to
open disgrace in their renunciation of the same.
Christ' validity is thus "impugned" by their apostasy.

However, verses 9-12 indicate show how the writer expects BETTER things
from those others who are being faithful.
He trusts them implicitly as to their faithfulness to Christ.
Now assuredly, the writer DOES indicate tthat ostensible Christians CAN
fall away from the faith, but his confidence remains staunch nonetheless.
His confidence runs as "We are NOT of THOSE who shrink back and are destroyed,
but of those who BELIEVE and are SAVED."
I sheer sense of clean deliniation is made between the lost and saved in
this section.
He seems to point out a dychotomy in genre of Christians versus "christians".
But this only seems to beg our question.
We know there are those who will fall away and those who will not ... the query
remains : "Can the Christian of the true sort ever be LOST?"

We now use the "Analogy of Scripture" of Hermeneutics to bring about our
answer.
In the Analogy of Scripture, we bring to bear other more explicit Scripture
citations upon those which are somewhat ambiguous.
This is what we want to do here.
In this case, Hebrews 7:25 is helpful and reads as "For this reason also He is
able to be saving completely and forever those who come to God through Him
...."

This indicates WHAT Christ is ABLE to do with those who are ABLE to come to
Him, not what we are able to accomplish.  This is the Divine perspective.
This saving of His people is seen also in 9:12 as "...having obtained
ETERNAL redemption."  Again, Christ has gained something which seems to have
an unbreakable quality about it in the long haul.  Again, what we have here
is God's perspective.
A good question about it might be : "If our Salvation were somewhat contingent
upon us, would the Omnicient God dare to call it ETERNAL?"

In 10:15-17 we have another benchmark.  The writer indicates that God would
remember His people's sins NO LONGER (v.17).  If they could be saved then lost,
then the "NO LONGER" is weak and not worthy of our Lord.
POINT : Ostensible Christians we have plenty of and no doubt they can lose
what they have, but due to God's promises, as seen above, true believers are
kept faithful to the end by the power of GOD, Himself.



II.  Luke 12:41-48

This section, sorry to say, is even more NON-explicit than was the Hebrews
10 citation.  In dealing with the question of Eternal Security, we have our
work cut out to be sure, for Jesus' audience changes in this section from
one group to another and eternal punishment, allegedly in the last verses is
not explicit to say the least.

First, Jesus' audience is between His own group of disciples and a general
group of listeners who had gathered.  The chapter opens thusly.
Verse 1 is to His 12 explicitly.  Verse 4 might be to all concerned.
Verses 13-21 are definitely to the crowd at large, whereas verses 22-31 are to
His disciples.  And, verse 32 is to all in general.
This makes some application difficult.
By v. 41, even Peter is rather at a loss as to whom is Jesus speaking.
Here, is the parable of the "Faithful and Unfaithful Servants."
Eternal judgement as a topic is rather ambiguous, so a strong exegetical
statement is somewhat debatable.

However, some have seen v.47-48 as an indicator of punishment with its variety
of degrees ... in Hell, that is.  An argument for this is possible and may
be probable, but does this really answer our original question of "Is the
Christian Secure OR can he/she lose their Salvation?"
This section is not conclusive to that query.

Again, implementing the "Analogy of Scripture" (Scripture interprets Scripture)
we can look at some citations from more definitive areas.
Looking at John 6:38-40 and John 10:28, we have the words of Christ indicating
again the Divine perspective on our Security.
John 6:38-40 says that it is the will of the Father that NONE of those who come
to Christ will be lost but that they be RAISED at the last day.
Further, Jesus states in John 10:28 to the effect that "I give them eternal
life and they shall NEVER DIE."
This seems a bit more explicit.  Do we concur with this?  Can Christ be
mistaken?  Obviously not.

Lastly, from this scrounging of other citations brought to bear on Luke
12:41-48, let's look at Romans 8:29-30.
In this Grand Scale perspective of the Divine side of our Salvation, Paul
the Apostle, indicates that "those whom He PREDESTINED, He CALLED ;
those whom He Called, He JUSTIFIED ; those He whom justified, He GLORIFIED."
What we have here is a case of "Prolepsis."
God is doing ALL of the work here and the Glorificatin aspect is seen
gramatically, as if ALREADY accomplished, viewed in the PAST tense.
What God does for us in Saving us, will be upheld and maintained all
the way to the point of FINAL GLORIFICATION, as if the event has already
occurred.

Question : "If we can be lost who of us had ALL of our sins Imputed to Christ,
then HOW powerful is THAT God in light of the ONE in Romans 8:29-30?"


CONCLUSION : Scriptures indicate OUR perspective and GOD's in this matter.
There are REAL Christians and those who ostensibly are so but not in reality.
The former are upheld by God's Omnipotent Power and the others are permitted
to go their way unto eternal destruction.
Thus is God BEST glorified when He states in Romans 9 that "Can not
God choose SOME vessels to be vessels unto eternal life ... and choose
other vessels fit for DESTRUCTION?"

Such is the God with whom we must deal.



In the love of Christ ;


Jesse Carnes