From: ald@clipper.ingr.com (Al Date)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Abortion Rights = Self Determination
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:30:44 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Intergraph Advanced Processor Division - Palo Alto, CA


>In article <1992Aug14.221500.5510@clipper.ingr.com>, ald@clipper.ingr.com
>(Al Date) wrote:
>
>> 
>> Yep.  It is her universe, not yours, not mine, not society's.  
>> You can violate her, but she cannot violate herself.  Only she
>> can define the rights of the life within her.
>
>What a crock.  

I'm impressed.


>So, she is God to that fetus.  

She is *everything* to the fetus--the provider of
sustenance and protection.  But I can understand how
a woman might want to opt out of this role before it
becomes a lifetime commitment. 

Further, if a woman believes that there is a Higher God which bestows
immutable rights upon her fetus which transcend even her own life,
then she is free to act accordingly.  Will you give the same freedom
to women who do not believe this?  Apparently not.  And that is 
where you cross the line from moral righteousness to tyranny.

Your position is untenable not only because you define rights 
for others, but because you then claim the right to impose your will upon
them to enforce your definition over theirs, via legal sanctions
against abortion.  You may think of yourself as an idealistic
liberator, a modern abolitionist, but your ideas are more akin to
those of an enslaver.  


>She can determine the outcome of its life, her lifestyle and the 
>lifestyle of the father in question?  I don't think so.

C'mon Rick.  You are a bright boy.

Her lifestyle DIRECTLY effects the outcome of the fetus.  You never heard
of fetal alcohol syndrome?  Every bite of food she takes has some impact 
on the fetus.  I understand that there are even some herbs which cause 
miscarriages in a high percentage of cases.  Shall we make them
all illegal?

If the woman decides to carry the fetus to term, we must rely on her good 
graces to take care of herself and her fetus.  Of what value is the
criminal law in this regard?  If you would prohibit abortion,
the next logical step would be to prohibit "dangerous" pre-natal 
self-conditions.

This would amount to an attempt to imprison a woman who isnt eating 
properly and force-feeding her, just as a ban of abortion amounts
to an attempt to metaphorically keep a woman in chains
for 8 months so she wont go to Sweden.  

Even if you have drug-addicted women, for example, is it more sensible to
drive them underground as we do now with the war on drugs 
(and into the sociology of the drug dealers) 
or to enroll them in treatment (for the duration of the pregnancy) without
the fear of legal retribution?   (Actually, the evidence of a
"crack-baby" syndrome has been found to be unsupported--reference recent
article by Joanne Jacobs in the SJ Merc.  Alcohol, nicotine and 
malnourishment remain the major threats to the intrauterine fetus).

So education and a competitive health services market are our best hope
for responsible procreation.


Now, as to the father, this is a totally separate matter which I have
heretofore not addressed.  I personally think that there is a moral obligation
to support one's children until they reach some age of maturity, which
I would like to see set at puberty for a host of reasons which I 
wont get into here.

But again, it is far more effective to rely
on social mores and on the father's good graces than to resort to 
criminal law.  As a culture, we used to play to the pride of the
father of his brood, to get the proud papa to choose to stick around.
It seems that the welfare state has all but wiped this out in the last 
25 years.

But in any case, it would seem that a failure to pay child support would be a 
civil case, and not a criminal one.

The extent to which moral obligations can be improved by enacting
criminal sanctions for a failure to comply is highly dubious.
The tendency of people to think that "there ought to be a law" to
correct every moral deficiency is extremely dangerous to liberty.


--Al Date
Newsgroups: ba.politics