From: odin@world.std.com (Hank Roth)
Subject: "Progressive" News & Views/poetry
Followup-To: alt.activism.d
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:10:36 GMT

<<< via P_news >>>
SUBJECT:  "Progressive" News & Views/poetry 
FROM: Hank Roth, Moderator

This echo conference provides an alternative for those who are 
interested in *LEFT* wing "progressive" issues. The object of this 
conference is to provide a cross-fertilization of ALTERNATIVE views, 
to propose and discuss new world visions, to present ideas that challenge 
prevailing views; and to advance the cause of PEACEFUL RESOLUTION of 
matters that greatly concern us: the environment, the economy, politics, 
feminism, and nationalism, etc. and also to vehemently oppose chauvinism, 
gay bashing, racism, antisemitism, etc. 

Verbal abuse and reactionary attacks WILL NOT BE TOLERATED; there are 
more than enough conferences for those who find sport in that kind of 
agitation to find their avenues of expression. Be forewarned, if anyone
consistently violates the rules for this echo conference their access
will be cut.

We will discuss a myriad of issues; from racism, abortion clinic 
bombings, union-busting, free trade, humanism, liberation theology, 
imperialist wars, illiteracy, rape of the environment, ignorance, 
and bigotry, etc. in an effort to provide better understanding for 
root causes and agendas around these issues. As moderator, if and 
when the discussion wonders too far afield, I see it as my function 
to provide a focus and to offer direction. 

The OBJECT of this conference is to bring *PROGRESSIVES* together
as a COALITION, as an Affinity Group  for SEEKING JUSTICE, 
to explore ALTERNATIVES, and to encourage the PEACEFUL RESOLUTION 
OF CONFLICT; as well as providing moral support and camaraderie; 
and I will not hesitate to remind those in the conference of these 
goals. 
               STATEMENT OF PURPOSE:
               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
P_news is based on the proposition that all men and women are 
entitled to certain basic rights: good and affordable health 
care, food, shelter, liveable wages, equal rights and 
opportunities, and this echo conference is dedicated to opposing 
racism, sexism, chauvinism, anti-Semitism, gay bashing, and 
neofascism. The purpose of this P_news is to examine issues that 
cause despair and alienation, to promote justice, and to bring 
like-minded "progressive" thinking people together.
             ~~~~~~~~~~~
This echo should be for the purpose of sharing experiences and 
feelings, to provide news and information of interest and as a 
way to learn and gather strength from each other. 
     
Be prudent. Don't bash anyone. Let us have reasonable, intellectual 
discourse and let us keep it progressive, not regressive. 

This is a PROGRESSIVE echo to bring like-minded "progressive" 
thinking people (of various left wing tendencies) together 
through this echo conference and our newsletter (available upon 
request). Our objective is to build SOLIDARITY and a COALITION 
for peace & justice (though not necessarily a consensus on all 
matters). 

This echo conference is for the purpose of exploring our 
positions from a *LEFT PERSPECTIVE*. We are not about to fall 
into any kind of First Amendment trap that says all views are 
welcome here. There are many conferences where right wing 
positions and temperment are welcome, including harassment, 
racial terrorism, etc., and in many of them, very little of 
substance can cut through the mud slinging. That is 
counterproductive and not acceptable in this echo conference. So 
while those kinds of reactionary positions are clearly evident 
and sport on many other echo conferences, I REPEAT: they are 
not welcome here. This is not that kind of conference. If that is 
your game, join them, not us. 

On this echo conference, we expect some divisiveness; we may not 
all agree, BUT we are looking towards common goals. This is first 
and foremost, an AFFINITY GROUP. Let us together explore those 
"NEW VISIONS" and look for COMMONALITY.                      

This conference also serves as a conduit for information from 
other Left Wing sources, to-wit: (to name just a few) Zeta 
Magazine, Workers Vanguard, PWW, FIT, The Progressive, The 
Guardian, The Militant, Workers World, In These Times, The 
Nation, The National Liberation News Service, PeaceNet, 
ConflictNEt, NY Transfer News, Anews, as well as progressive 
newsgroups on Usenet and other sources.                                                                        

                              POETRY

Poetry is encouraged with certain qualifications. One can say so 
very much with metaphor. One can speak with passion and often 
touch the core of an issue using poetry, yours and others. Read a 
good poem lately? Share it with us. Our only requirment is that 
it be relative to the "HUMAN CONDITION" and sparingly 
interspersed between other comments. Anotherwords, this is an 
echo conferance PRIMARILY for LEFT WING discussion and only 
incidentally for poetry. As a suggestion you might like to post a 
poem and SOME COMMENTS ABOUT YOUR POETRY, i.e., what it says 
specifically to you about human suffering, aspirations, angst, 
etc. 

Poetry often serves as the conscience of society. It is 
interesting that many people who have had an impact (good and 
bad) on history have also been poets. To name just a few: Karl 
Marx, Mao-Tse-Tung, Stalin, Shelley, Byron, Pushkin, Sean 
O'Casey, Yehuda Amichai, Yevgeny Yevtushenko, Henry David 
Thoreau. Some probably come to your mind as well. 

ja: writes:
HR> Hank Roth writes to TF [name deleted]:
Hank Roth writes to ja:
                                                                               
ja: Freedom of speech IS absolute. In the first amendment, it 
ja: states no restrictions.  I believe we deserve an ABSOLUTE 
ja: freedom to speak. I don't believe like you do, that only us 
ja: liberals have a right to free speech, and everyone else should 
ja: be silenced. That's hypocratic, and that's wrong.        
                                                                               
HR> We have libel laws, slander laws, and stare decisis (court decisions)       
HR> which limit words and create a "clear and present danger" or that           
HR> constitutes "fighting words." And echo conferences also have rules and       
HR> this one is limited to Left wing discussion and doesn't exist for           
HR> your pleasure or Right wing lunacy.                                         
                                                                               
ja: Those laws are so ambiguous it's not funny. Anyone can claim 
ja: libel, slander, sedition, etc. 

All laws are ambiguous but nevertheless these are the laws which 
govern our behavior and they change over time through court 
decisions. But by virtue of their existence they do provide 
restraint, without which there would be no protection for the 
weak, for dissenters, and for those who are not in power. I 
learned that in law school I also learned that that unfortunately 
most laws are based on class and are for the protection of 
property, not human beings. But unrestrained actions without 
laws, as with unrestrained capitalism becomes predatory. 
However, this defense of specific policy in this conference is 
not about censorship, it is about the pursuit of equality. 

It seems like we are fighting the same fight over and over again 
to bring everybody up to speed. A good place to start for you and 
others who need a better understanding of what freedom means and 
the use of language to obscure real freedom would be in A 
PEOPLE'S HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES, by Howard Zinn. I won't 
quote anything from Zinn now but may come back to it at a later 
time. I will quote Jacque Roux however.

         "Liberty is but an empty illusion as long as one class
          can let the others starve. Equality is but an empty 
          illusion as long as the rich ... decides over life and 
          death of his fellowmen." (1793)

ja:I know FidoNet is not a democracy, but admit it, you ARE       
ja:acting as a censor, silencing all opposing views, as you think 
ja:your views are  perfect. I know my views aren't perfect, and an 
ja:opposing views often helps    

Did I say my views were perfect? No one can say that. I don't 
want to be in a net where people have all the answers. I rather 
be in a discussion where people can question their feelings, not 
resort to name calling, which seems to be a favorite sport for 
[names deleted]. I've read their posts on other conferences and 
so has everyone else here. If Fido didn't have conferences for 
various purposes they might as well relabel them with numbers. 
The best articulation of a position doesn't necessarily make it 
correct either. And of course jade, no one has a monopoly on the 
truth. Truth is a personal observation, one that [names deleted] 
has sought to impose on us before. Just as beauty is in the eyes 
of the beholder, as I have been told on this conference by 
others, so is the truth. History is difficult enough to record 
when you are a witness, but even eye witnesses can vary and 
disagree, depending on whose side they are on, what agenda they 
are promoting and what they knew that led up to the event, etc. 
It has often been said that only the winners write the history 
books. America's history books give mostly a favorable history of 
our founding but the Indians would give quite another perspective 
to the history of the Indian Wars, etc. 

If our views were perfect we wouldn't need a conference to 
discuss them. There are many currents of left wing views 
represented here from socialists, communists, anarchists, social 
democrats, Trotskysts, and maybe even a few Maoists. And I'm 
sorry if I left anyone out. We wish to discuss and exchange 
alternative views, but not right wing views. There is nothing to 
learn from bigots, McCarthyites, and fascists that we don't 
already know.  They demonstrate their intent with their anti-
People diatribes and attempt at intimidation. 

ja: point out inconsistencies, and hypocrisies.  If you can't 
ja: take constructive criticism, you cease to think.                                                 

I don't know how much you know about the left wing but it is 
constantly in psychoanalysis figuratively speaking. Every 
current, every Internationale, every vanguardist group is 
critical of each other. But one thing they almost all have in 
common is their opposition to the right. The problem is we always 
think; it is the right wing that uses simplistic answers and 
refuses to think.  
                                                                               
HR> In which case you had no business entering this echo. You should have       
HR> read the echo rules and complied therewith. You are attempting to           
HR> censor our views by imposing your own and shouting us down, using our       
HR> bandwidth for your "red baiting."                                            

ja:I don't think he's censoring your views, he's providing an 
ja:alternative view. We must always continue to see things from a 
ja:different view.  

I have already answered this. his alternative is not the 
alternative view. Unfortunately it is the current populist 
Amerikkkan view. It is a sick, foul mouthed, pseudo-intellectual 
view which we reject unequivocably. It is a reactionary view that 
is anti-humanitarian. It is diametrically opposite to any of the 
positions of any *LEFT* wing current as I previously mentioned. 

ja:We must doubt everything, and everyone, and 
ja:an opposition helps us question everything.      

Did you say that or did I? (De Omnibus Est Dubatandum) Certainly 
we must doubt everything because there have been so many lies. As 
a former employee of the National Security Agency I have seen the 
lies and been apart of it. When I worked in the White House and 
in the War Room at the Pentagon I never questioned anything 
because there was only one voice---and it was the voice of people 
like Giwer and Flynn. It was my experiences there and my exposure 
to this *Left* truth that opened my eyes. I don't need to listen 
to the voice of liars, of brainwashed lackeys of right wing 
oppression. Sorry, that isn't productive. It doesn't teach 
anything. It just shows how stupid and insensitive people can be. 
I am seeking New Visions and that is very much apart of what this 
echo conference should be. 
                                                                               
 > TF> shown how you will banish a person simply for disagreeing               
 > TF> with your absurd                                                        

HR> No, we will ban someone who is out of line, who does not follow the        
HR> rules as posted in the Fido Echolist and frequently posted in this          
HR> conference.                                                                 
                                                                               
ja:Who decides who is out of line?  If we're here to better and 
ja:strengthen our liberal views, wouldn't fighting some 
ja:opposition off in a clean debate be very helpful?                                                                       

I would ask you to define "clean". Do you see anything clean 
about Flynn's constant tirades and red baiting. I don't. And as 
far as "who decides?" I do. I'm the moderator.
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                      LIBERTY TO HOLD PLEAS

"Censorship ends in logical completeness when nobody is allowed 
to read any books except the books nobody can read." (George 
Bernard Shaw)

There is absolutely no censorship of the LEFT wings views 
presented here, and anybody has the "freedom", the "absolute" 
freedom to start any echo they want to present other views, if 
there is enough interest in doing so and anybody who wishes to do 
so can read what they say there.   

The legal definition of freedom is: "The power of acting, in the 
character of a moral personality, according to the dictates of 
the will, without other check, hindrance, or prohibition than 
such as may be imposed by just and necessary laws and the duties 
of social life." (Black's Law Dictionary 5th ed) There are no 
absolutes. Freedoms are always, ALWAYS, regulated by law. 
Reasonable regulations and prohibitions are imposed in the 
interests of the community and society. 

"Liberty on its postive side, denotes the fullness of individual 
existence; on its negative side it denotes the necessary restraint 
on all, which is needed to promote the greatest possible amount of 
liberty for each." (IBID) 

There is also what is known as the "liberty to hold pleas", that 
is, the liberty of having a court of one's own, the privilege of 
holding pleas within one's own manor. Specific echo conferences 
could be likened to this liberty. And with regard to providing 
news, there is the "liberty of the press", which is a concurrent 
right to print or publish or in the case of the electronic media 
to publish one's own position or perception of the truth. It 
doesn't require that I also publish your conception of the truth. 
For that you need your own conference or newspaper. An article, 
unfavorable to the U.S. Government, which I wrote for the old 
LINE OF MARCH newspaper, would not be acceptable for publication 
in the conservative National Review. 

We all advocate the First Amendment so our own rights won't be 
eroded, just as the fascists use it to advance their own 
insidious hate philosophy. These revisionists rewrite history to 
promote a radical right-wing agenda. The use the First Amendment 
and all the other tools of a free society to gain their end. 
Hitler rode into power on the wings of democracy also. 

The falacy to thinking that through debate ideas will be 
exchanged and reason will ultimately emerge victorious is in 
thinking that everyone is as good a spokesman as everyone else. 
Unfortunately as Hannah Arendt points out in ORIGIN OF 
TOTALITARIANISM, emotionalism wins the day. I agree with Hannah 
Arendt, who stated that propaganda does contain an emotional mass 
appeal and therefore a superiority for converting men to its 
cause, because it is simplistic and people love to blame someone 
else. Logic may appeal to an intelligencia and free thinkers, but 
not to those already predisposed to certain ideas and strongly 
entrenched prejudices. This is why demogogues can win elections, 
and by popular appeal can be swept into positions of authority 
where they present a real threat to the rest of us.  

Debate often isn't really debate. If you read the other echos you 
know that. Some of of our conferees have expressed their 
frustration to me privately. What happens on these other echos is 
too often a bunch of wise guys try to out insult each other, 
trying to out perform each other with clever cliches and popular 
fad positions. The truth becomes the victim. 

What some "liberals" and "apologists for class order" are 
attempting to do is to redefine what is or is not considered the 
proper vehicle for "debate". They just don't like this kind of 
forum. There are all kinds of forums and a moderator decides 
what are acceptable guidelines for a particular forum and the 
guidelines for this particular forum works just fine. In fact 
better than fine because this kind of forum doesn't have to 
provide a platform for those who would villify, dehumanize, 
and promote hate. The Left rejects the horrific attempt 
at mind control by the rulers of Capitalism to manipulate the 
masses. We know that we cannot reason with unreasonable 
men (& women). And their stubborn reluctance to accept truth 
will impinge on our ability to say those things, so we don't need 
to provide that kind of imbalance in our forums. In furtherance 
of a higher ideal this forum  provides EQUITABLE unrestrained 
"freedom of speech" for a *LEFT* OPPOSITION to the established 
class order. 

P_news as an alternative 
             "progressive" 
              *LEFT* wing echo conference:

The misuse of words by implicit redefinition, the selective 
application of words and other forms of verbal manipulation is 
the favorite past time of right wing ideologues and for them 
words like "progressive" and "oppression" or "freedom" and 
"exploitation" are indistinguishable, and their doublespeak 
is a smokescreen and not unlike the attempt by the right to 
woo the left.

These are conferees on other FidoNET echo conferences that use 
taglines that say: "kill all the liberals" and "the only good 
Communist is a dead Communist." For them progressive means 
unleashing market forces in accord with IMF criteria, increasing 
inequality and malnutrition and intervention in the internal 
affairs of other countries when they won't enslave themselves to 
the U.S. 

There are always constraints on OUR freedom of speech and it is the 
dissenters' lack of access to the mass media that threatens our 
right to be heard by the general public. Thats means our freedom 
is in an important sense only a personal freedom with limited 
public and social significance. 

Of course the dissenters are FREE to start their own newspaper or 
start their own echo conference, which is what we have done. This 
is the echo of dissent. Just as we need an opposition political 
party in this country, we are the echo conference of opposition. 
And the opposition isn't compelled to capitulate to the right 
wing power structure. Let them start their own conferences and 
they have. There are plenty of them.  

And of course freedom of speech is important which is why we 
insist on our freedom of speech on this echo conference to 
express our *Left* wing views without interference from those who 
would "kill all the liberals" and though they mouth lofty ideas 
about respecting our right to speak, they would shout us down, 
using the same lame arguments we have all heard time and time 
again. 

Having our own echo conference provides a little balance and 
also provides for a free flow of ideas, ideas that before in other 
venues were opposed and shouted down with flaming pejoratives 
and denegrated because we are concerned with a higher sense of 
humanity and opposed to greed and selfishness. 

And that is why we don't want the right wing to spew their hate, 
gay bashing, red baiting, and chauvinism here nor will I, as 
moderator permit it. I have received E-mail from several of  
our conferees imploring me to get tough with them and I assured 
them that I will. 

When they won't respect our net policies, I will request that 
their sysops cut their access. And if they go to another board we 
will do it there also. If a sysop won't cut their access the 
sysop's feed will be cut by the HUB. If some miscreant who has 
had his or her access cut but moves to another BBS and persistently 
violates our echo rules I'll take the complaint first to the Net 
Echo Coordinator and perhaps to the the Region Echo Coordinator, 
or even to the National (Zone) Echo Coordinator if need be, and 
their access to all of Fidonet could be terminated.  

      "P_news" PROGRESSIVE news, views & poetry

There are ALTERNATIVES. This is an echo conference for  
articulating ideas that challenge prevailing views. Except for 
"Anews" and very few others, there is a shortage of alternative 
networks. BUT NOW, there is "progressive" news, views & poetry. 

An alternative echo to discuss NEW VISIONS?  Discuss news  
from  the alternative press and on Anews, nytransfer, peaceNet, 
ecoNet, conflictNet with a little poetry thrown in. 

The "P" also stands for a "Peaceful" resolution of conflicts, 
wherever possible and not wars for oil or tyranny or right wing 
dictatorships because they are supportive of exploitive social 
orders. No more genocide in our name. 

It  stands for "Poetry", that contains social commentary, and 
relates to the human condition. Poetry contains a language of its 
own. It is metaphor and images, a painting on the canvass of the 
mind, using words to evoke feelings and stir the sleeping soul.

And it stands for "Progressive", that tendency for justice and 
more humane attitudes and a recognition that abuses will occur 
unless we vigilently struggle for the protection of the weakest, 
the dowtrodden and the most unfortunate among us. 

It is the recognition that we desperately need a clean 
environment, affordable housing, decent mass transportation. We 
need sanity and to vigorously move away from the conspiratorical 
hypocracy that rules. We need democracy for all the people and we 
don't have it, not enough of it, and we aim to get it, and that's 
human nature----or put in another way, in the nature of our 
humanity, to insist on decency, peace, and social justice. 

This echo is for PROGRESSIVE positions only. NO flames! NO right 
wing debate. NOT a forum for reactionary politics.  

                   Hank Roth, moderator

          ###### Work for Peace & Justice #######


              Anyway the Left wind blows ...
                                                //\         /\\
                                               || * \ . . / * ||
                                                \\____\X/____//
                                                 / *  /O\  * \
                                                 \__/  "  \__/

************************************************************************
P_news is on the FidoNET national backbone. If you would like a 
really different approach, a *REAL* ALTERNATIVE to the mainstream 
echo conferences your BBS now carries, ask your sysop to AREAFIX 
P_news and give your users a unique alternative.. We also have a 
newsletter. If you want to be on our mailing list send your 
"snailmail" address to: odin@world.std.com // Hank Roth  ////
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.progressive