From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: LORD, LIAR, OR LUNATIC?
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:45:41 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <71792@apple.Apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
>In service of my curiosity about this point, I asked a Christian friend
>for examples of passages he takes to be distinct claims to divinity
>by Jesus. He provided the following, and promised more, given a day
>or two to research.
<...>
>>From the gospel of John, chapter 8:
>
>     "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
>     At this, they picked up stones to stone him.
>
>The reason they were going to stone him, is that "I am" is the way God
>characterized himself to Moses, and every Jew knew that claim well.

I can't say that this isn't possible, but were the words `I am' taboo?
I wonder, if Queen Victoria (I think) were God, would anyone who said
"We are not amused" be guilty of blasphemy?

Too bad that the Gospel only provides us with a Greek recasting of
Jesus's words.  It is only moderately useful.  We can't be sure how
his words sounded in Aramaic.  Maybe they could remind the listeners
of the Hebrew expression from Exodus.  Maybe they couldn't.

>>From John 10:
>
>     "I and the Father are one."  <...>
>     "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews,
>     "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

As a netter already pointed out, "I and God are one" sounds like a
Hindu statement.  Could Jesus have said also "You and the Father are
one" or "You and I are one"?  We can't be sure.

>>From John 17:
>
>    "Father, the time has come.  Glorify your Son, that your Son may
>    glorify you.  For you granted him authority over all people that
>    he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."

Well, having authority (even the authority to give eternal life on
God's behalf) doesn't necessarily mean being a god, does it?  There
should be more to godhood.  This is just one function that may or may
not be associated with it.

>When he appeared to Thomas:  (John 20)
>
>    "Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"  Then Jesus told him,
>    "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those
>    who have not seen and yet have believed."

Again, he avoids saying the words "I am God" himself.

In fact, Jesus seems to be acting like a European scholar visiting
some tribe in the middle of nowhere (Miklukho-Maklay in New Guinea,
for example).  He doesn't make too big declarations about himself,
but, due to his education, he can do a number of things that the
locals can profit from but aren't prepared to understand, so they
consider it appropriate to call him a god or something, and he finds
it pointless and even unwise to put too much effort into making them
think otherwise, so he just continues his main task (research,
messiahhood, or what have you) while letting them use that terminology.

-- 
 `If ye hiv ears oan yer heid - then use them tae lissen.' (The Glasgow Gospel)
Ivan A Derzhanski   (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk;  iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK