From: dewanto@cae.wisc.edu (Gaston Dewanto)
Subject: Re: E. Timor & Indonesia
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:40:24 CST


>Where is your argument? By your point of view, Portugal should be Spanish,
>because Spain is all around us... Timor is different ethnically, linguistic
>and culturally from Java, and it will not be "Pancasila" that will change by
>miracle thousands of years of history.
>
You forget that the West Timor and East Timor are in the same island and
they are the same ethnic. The West Timorese are Indonesians and so are the
East Timorese. Don't you know that there are many efforts to integrate
people from the same ethnic like the West and Est German, South and North
Korea or North and South Vietnam. If we were separated, we should be
very thankful to you or other civilized people who came for Glory, Gold
and Gospel.

>
>This is the Indonesian version... In reality, APODETI, a very, very small
>party, promoted by Indonesian Intelligence, made the Portuguese Military
>Governor hostage, seized the Radio, and did tried to seize power, after being
>evident that they will never win the elections being planned (the regional
>elections gave FRETILIN an big advantage...)
>
This is not the Indonesian version, I read this from a post in 
alt.culture.indonesia by somebody not an Indonesian I believe.
However it seems that you have the Portuguese version.

>If you look at UN records, you will see that:i) Portugal never did recognize
>indepence to E. Timor; ii) Portugal accused FRETILIN of illegally seizing the
>power; iii) Portugal still is the admnistrating power of E. Timor.
>
So you are still supporting imperialism. Congratulation, you just show
your real face. 
If you accused Fretilin did illegal thing, why do you let them in your country
live freely? 
>
>We did face well established civilizations, with development in many aspects
>really superior to Portugal (or west Europe, as matter of fact), like India,
>China, Japan, Java, Burma, etc... It was not like the invasion by Spain of
>weak Central and South America civilizations (not with the purpose of trading,
>just the grasping as much gold as they could...) or the North Europe settlement
>in North America.
>
I believe that I read about something done by Alfonso d'Alburquerque in 
Malaya in alt.culture.indonesia that was not something nice.

>
>Being an western, I find difficult to understand why you don't give the some
>importance to a single human life, as we do. But, living with International
>neigbours from all over the world, I can learn. We have much more in common
>than differences (real differences, not form of the eyes, or color of the skin,
>etc ...). We are all human beings, and WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT, you liked
>it or not.
>
We care about human life. However, we can not let any independent movement
in our area, because it will give much more problem. See Yugoslavia or
USSR for example. Are they better now after the fall of socialism?
We don't have any intention to kill any East Timorese, after all they are
the same of us. However to keep the stability, we have to act harshly,
which unfortunately victimize innocent people.
>
>About Australia, they did plan to take E.Timor after the WWII, only being
>deterred because Portugal did a treaty with the USA, giving the Americans a
>aerial base at the Azores islands (a very strategic archipelago in the middle
>of the Atlantic, fulcral in defeating the German U-Boats and refuel of
>airplanes coming from USA to Europe) against help to recover E. Timor from
>the Japanese...
>
>It is obvious that they would have more problems in negotiating with us than
>with Indonesia, and they keep a large share of the oil (againstaustralian
>public opinion) and Indonesia keeps the shame...
>
I wonder what the Australians say about this.

>
>No comments: their subordinates kill more than 100 people, and they walk away
>with a little tap on the back (wait and see, perhaps they will get promoted
>soon, after all the publicity about will get down ...)
>
They were fired and many people in the military regretted it.
I believe that is the end of their careers.
>
>Maybe E. Timorese will want more freedom, more respect for themselves than to
>grow more $100 in GNP. If you really are happy with the corruption in
>Indonesia, 1% of the population owning 99,9% of the land, poor people
>everywhere, even in the suburbs of Jakarta (not to speak in the small islets),
>if you are happy to speak "bahasar" instead of the language of your ancestors,
>you are free to choose.
>
One percent of our population own the land as big as a third of West Europe?
You must have a really good imagination or some body else does.
Understanding our national language will make people can speak with any
other people in our country. What is wrong with that? Do you want to
have a brother who can not communicate with you?

>
>If it wasn't deliberately done, it was very expontaneous to have companies of
>soldiers to incircle a group of demonstrators and shoot without any warning,
>to stab the survivors and to make disappear in mass graves already digged the
>bodies... What was not deliberately done, and that I am sure, was to be
>outsmarted by a reporter, that put a video of the scene in the TV's of world,
>showing the true face of the Indonesian occupation of E. Timor.
>
I heard a talk by the reporter that was there last year. I don't deny that
there were shooting and many people got killed. However the reporter
gave a very subjective view that made the Indonesian government almost
like a merciless animal. As an Indonesian, I found out he was wrong in many
ways. My point is we have to be careful of what reporters say, because
they can make any news they want just for their own benefit.

>
>So, I can kill people, because other people do so... Mr. Dewanto, is a little
>difficult to not start to "flame" you about this affirmation, but that would be
>very constructive, I only kindly ask you to read again what you had written,
>and not assume that you represent the Indonesian majority ideas about
>massacring pacif demonstrators...
>
I never say that we can kill people.

For the benefit of other people in this newsletter who may be bored
with our discussion that has nothing to do with them, would you kindly
put your posting to a more appropriate newsletter, e.g., 
alt.culture.indonesia.
I believe you can have broader views from either the Indonesian and the
Portuguese.


Kindly,

g.dewanto

Newsgroups: soc.culture.asean