From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Calvinism and Hell (was: *I* am THE way.)
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:18:04 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

First I wish to apologize for a mistatement on my part.  I had originally
meant to say:

> While I am not refuting Publius' specific form of Calvinism,...
				   ^^^^^^^^
Instead I  said:

> While I am not specifically refuting Publius' form of Calvinism,...
		 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
There is a big difference, and that will teach me to proof read more carefully.

As to our discussion, Publius, let us get rid of the issue of Hellfire.  You
repeatedly and correctly point out that Calvin's did not believe in a location
of hellfire, and you say of Calvin's statements at the end of Book 3 of
Institutes:

>  If anything, it only
> shows that Calvin rejected Thomas Aquinas' literal "hell fire"
> interpretation,...

We both agree that Calvin does not believe in actual Hellfire.  Our
disagreement is on Calvin`s belief in eternal torment of the damn.  We most
definitely disagree on the meaning of the passages, at the end of Book 3.  I
definitely see that the passage explicitly condemns the damned to horrible
eternal torment, though it gives no exact details of that torment. 

Now, unless I completely misinterpret you Publius (always a possibility), 
you state that hell cannot be eternal torment for the following
reasoning: Calvin says that Jesus, took unto himself the punishment of all 
the saved, and that Jesus suffered more than more than any man could.  Further,
Jesus, only suffered separation from the Calvinist god, and therefore the 
damned only suffer separation from the Calvinist god.  Further, as Jesus'
trip through hell was finite, and greater than any man's, man's damnation
must also be finite.

This line of reasoning is wrong for several reasons. First Calvin did not see
Jesus as only suffering by his separation from the Calvinist god, Calvin
explicitly said Jesus suffered under the blows and and attacks of the divine
anger of a vengeful god:

    In order to interpose between us and God's anger and satisfy his
    righteous judgement, it was necessary that he feel the weight of 
    divine vengeance.
				Institutes 2.16.10

    But this we say, the he [Jesus] bore the weight of the divine anger, that
    smitten and afflicted, he experienced all the signs of an angry and
    avenging God.
				Institutes 2.16.11

This is not mere separation from the Calvinist god, it is punishment from
that god.  Calvin also repeats this thought in the "Geneva Catechism"


    M: As for what immediately follows, that he descended into hell, what
    does that mean?

    C: That he endured not only common death, which is the separation of the
    soul from the body; but also the pains of death, as Peter calls them 
    (Acts 2:24). By this word I understand the fearful agonies, with which 
    his soul was tormented.

    M: Tell me the cause and manner of this.

    C: Because, in order to make satisfaction for sinners, he arraigned
    himself before the tribunal of God, it was requisite that his conscience be
    tormented by such agony as if he were forsaken by God, even as if he had 
							   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    God hostile to him.  He was in this agony, when he cried to the
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Father: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46; 
    Mark 15:34).

    M: Was this not an affront to the Father?

    C: Not at all, But he exercised this severity against him that he might
    fulfill what was prophesied by Isaiah: He was smitten by the hand of God 
					    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    for our sins, wounded for our iniquities (Isa 53:4; Pet 2:24). 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

According to Calvin, Jesus was not merely separated from your god, he was 
brutalized by your god for our inequities.  This belief is also reflected in
the writings of other Calvinists.  For instance, in a sermon on the 
crucifixion of Jesus, the Scot Calvin preacher Thomas Boston described it as:
 
   "from the vindictive anger of God... pure wrath, nothing but wrath: the 
    Father loved to see him die."

Nor is the fact that Jesus' torture was limited in time, mean that the
torture of the unchosen is also thereby limited.  For instance, from the
"Geneva Catechism" again:

    M: Hence we conclude that the torment of conscience he endured differed 
    from that which torments sinners, whom the hand of an angry God pursues. 
    For what was temporary in his case [Jesus] is perpetual in theirs; and
    what was for him like a prick stinging him, is for them a mortal sword 
    wounding, as one may say, the very heart.

    C: Just so.  For the Son of God, though beset by agonies of this kind,
    did not cease to hope in the Father.  But sinners condemned by God's
    judgement, rush into despair, rage again him, and break forth even into 
    open blasphemies.

Thus we see that Calvin does envision eternal torment, even though not of the
specific hellfire variety.  This idea of eternal torment most definitely agrees
with the the condemnation to eternal torment in Institutes 3.25.12:

    Moreover, as language cannot describe the severity of the divine
    vengeance on the reprobate, their pains and torments are figured to us by
    corporeal things, such as darkness, wailing and gnashing of teeth,
    unextinguishable fire, the ever-gnawing worm.  It is certain that by such
    modes of expression the Holy Spirit designed to impress all our senses with
    dread...
    Hence unhappy consciences find no rest, but are
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    vexed and driven about by a dire whirlwind, feeling as if torn by an angry
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    God, pierced through with deadly darts, terrified by his thunderbolt, and 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    crushed by the weight of his hand; so that it were easier to plunge into 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    abysses and whirlpools than endure these terrors for a moment.  How 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    fearful, then, must it be to be thus beset throughout eternity! 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thus Publius, while I would agree that Calvin did not see "hell" as a location
or a lake of fire, I do most definitely observe Calvin as seeing hell as a
state of eternal and horrible torment enacted by the Calvinist god. 
  
				Later,

				Dave Butler

    ... when does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so 
    many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death 
    unless because it so pleased God?
				Calvin
				Institutes

    PS. Publius, it may take a while to get you the exact location of the 
    above quote.  I was using a different, and less flattering form of the 
    quote from George Seldes' "The Great Quotations":

      Whence is it that so many peoples, together with their innocent little
      children should be deliverered to death eternal through the fall of Adam,
      unless it should please God.
  
    Unfortunately Seldes did not give an exact location. Charles Hedricks
    then gave me the above, less inflammatory version, and I have
    been using it out of deference to Charles.  Perhaps he can tell you 
    immediately the location of that quote, but it will take me a bit more 
    looking (Actually I think Charles gave me an exact reference when he
    gave me the quote, I just haven't been able to locate that article yet).
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15402 alt.atheism:16360