HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ejones@umassmed.ummed.edu (Erik Jones)
Subject: Re: Mommy! They Called Me Names! (Was: Implications of Abortion...)
Organization: Umassmed Medical Center; Worcester, MA 01655
	<1992Apr12.190057.24646@cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:00:22 GMT

Steve sayeth:

 >   This already happens - There have been quite a few men and women who have 
  >been placed in jail for obstruction, loitering, public nuisance, etc... Then
  >again, lots of people were arresed in the South during King's regime, and 
  >Gandhi spent a fair bit of time in Jail. Hell, Jesus Christ died at the
  >hands of the law because of his beliefs (perhaps at the mercy of people like
  >you?) We understand the responsiblity every time we carry a picket sign,
  >but my friend - it is worth it.

You equate your movement with those of great leaders like those?
How dare you, when Operation Rescue fanatics firebomb clinics and
spend their time shouting and cursing and damning women outside
abortion clinics.

      >When a REAL man respects life, he supports the woman's unborn child.
      >When a REAL man loves a woman, he supports her pregnancy so fully
   >that she would have no reason to have an abortion...
      >When a REAL man loves a woman, he offers the life long commitment of
   >marriage to her. 

Do you consider yourself a real man, Steve?  How many children
have you fathered?  Have you ever married?  Are you talking from
any concept of experience or is it all just a lungful of air?
Let us know if you are ever become a real man, Steve, so we can
see how you cope with the expieriences you so blindly name.

   >Abortion has a wierd habit of disrupting the concept of family...
   >How can you condone abortion yet imply you are "pro-child"? Even if you
   >consider the fetus NOT to be a child, surely as a "pro-child" you'd like
   >to give each one a chance?

Every child a wanted child, Steve.  That's our goal.  When
you find out what Fatherhood is like, let us know.  When
and if.

Erik
From: emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Is this guy pro-control, or what?
Date: 15 Apr 92 18:22:16 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: hernes-sun

>In article <1992Apr15.115656.18552@cs.dal.ca> franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) froths:
>
>   Well, it seems like eric wants me out of talk.abortion, so if you
>see fit to have me leave, then mail him with your concerns. 

No, I do not. I find you annoying, nothing more.

Eric
--
*  Eric Marsh   ---   email: emarsh@sun.com / standard disclaimers apply  *
*  DoD # 1332                                    dragbike pilot for hire  *
*  986cc Ninja street scooter   ----   GS1260 Suzuki Pro-Stock drag bike  *
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.sex.bondage,alt.sex,talk.bizarre,soc.singles
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: does the term StandardDeviation come to mind?
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 01:13:44 GMT

Fuzzy@colonel.Corp.Sun.COM (Michael Shames/Contractor) writes:

] In article <1992Apr3.094452.8764@wetware.com> drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:
] >Helpful Hints for Happy Kampers:
] >
] >Try to remember when visiting the local harware store
] >that the RULES of DECORUM do Apply, and that it is 
] >considered a Breach of Ettiquette to 'twitter' like
] >young schoolgirls while considering chains, eyebolts,
] >cotter pins, and other ObviouslySexuallyDeviantArtifacts
] 
] 	damn, you take all the fun out of it.
] 	whats the good of being deviant if'en you can't also
] 	have some good clean fun shocking the living shit
] 	out of the norms?
] 
] 		mike shames


Not that i would wish to concern you with the matter
of localizing yourself relative to the bell curve and all...


You Do Know that the buzzPhrase "Six sigma" is not just
for Breakfast Anymore....


ciao
drieux

ps: by the way, who is norm? and why do you want to
run electricity through him?????





-- 
EOT 
No More Written InPut 
Why are you Looking Here?

Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: dgp@saturn.wustl.edu (Don Porter)
Subject: Re: NEWS:  Oklahoma fetus disposal
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 14:41:13 GMT

<olson.703519123@acf9> (David Olson) writes:
>Any in Oklahoma read this group?  

The story is on the wire services and CNN.  I read it in this morning's
St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

>Info taken from the 17.April.92, NY Times, A13. 

>An obstretician, Nareshkumar Patel, "said that he and and and employee
>took the [remains of 60] fetuses to the [farmer's] field and tried to 
                   ---^^ 
The Post article had this number up to ~170.

>burn them with two cans of lighter fluid."  Patel didn't say whether 
>the fetuses cam from abortions, but...  No charges have been filed yet, 
>but judging from the sketchy comments in the article, Patel will (at least) 
>be charge with illegally dumping biomedical waste.

The Post article said that forensic experts are examining the remains.
If any of the fetuses is above 24 weeks development, Patel is in big
trouble.  The most developed fetus so far is around 20 weeks.

If none of the fetuses is that developed, there has been no crime
committed.  The article reported that usual procedure for disposing
of human tissue is incineration at a biomedical facility, but no
law requires this procedure be followed.

|   Don Porter | dgp@saturn.wustl.edu | Washington University in St Louis   |
|  "The effect of liberty to individuals is, that they may do what they     |
|   please; we ought to see what it will please them to do, before we       |
|___risk congratulations." -- Edmund Burke._________________________________|
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Subject: Re: THE IMPLICATIONS OF ABORTION ON OUR SOCIETY
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, San Diego Division
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1992 19:27:28 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.015314.22201@cs.dal.ca> franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes:
>In <1992Apr6.160734.21529@ncar.ucar.edu> kauff@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman) writes:
>
>>BTW, are you willing to reject all books of the bible that endorse polygamy,
>>or do you pick & choose bible verses to taste?
>   I have a habit - I read the message of the bible, and avoid the
>specifics. The concept and value of LIFE is a message.

Of course, so is the concept and value of man's WILL.

Adrienne  Regard
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Subject: Re: The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 03:01:40 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.012228.6818@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> mal11@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew A. Lewis) writes:
>
>In a previous article, patrick@is.rice.edu (Pope Bruno the XVth) says:
>
>>Sure, Steve.  Just like your church minded its own business during the
>>Spanish Inquisition...got any more fairy tales for us?
>and HOW many Christians were killed by non-Christian Romans and all
>those crazy Ostrogoths, and Visigoths, and Vandals? ( I love those names!!)
You might be interested to know that the Goths were generally
Arian Christians.

-Ekr


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431, Honda CM400 rider          rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Yale University Department of Chemistry            We hack anything.
My mind is now for rent: C/Unix,Vacuum Tech,Machining,P-Chemist. Hire me, eh?
From: kr0u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin William Ryan)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: "Harmless Slavery"
Date: 9 Apr 92 06:18:27 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


    Time out! It appears that I wasn't very clear in my original post on this
thread. I pointed out (in response to a post that hilighted a single aspect
of the abortion debate and argued that this was the _only_ aspect of the
debate) that all of these arguments have common ground.

    That common ground is that all of these arguments try to shift the
balance of importance from the woman to the fetus and vice versa. If the
fetus is more important, pro-life; if the woman is more important, pro-choice.

    I wasn't trying to push either side in that statement; rather, I was
trying to point out that a) there's a reason why single issues are being
argued about, and b) there may be more than a single issue of importance
here, folks.

    I've received strongly worded replies from two people I _agree_ with,
both asking 'how can you say such a thing?'. Neither has been talking about
the same thing I was. In fact, people, if you go back to my original post
I state my personal opinion on abortion at the end, clearly separated from
the meta discussion that occupies the majority of the post. If those
objecting to my post read that section they will find that I agree with
them, and that they didn't address my meta discussion at all.

                                                 kwr
Internet: kr0u+@andrew.cmu.edu (miffed and puzzled, mostly miffed)
From: gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: A question for any MALE prolifer
Date: 14 Apr 92 23:17:53 GMT
Organization: Stay Awake Software

<1992Apr12.004257.22336@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> rfischer@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Ray Fischer) said:
>kevin@liebe.uucp (Kevin Brawley) writes ...
...

>>                  I sense a bit of Nora-worship here.

Of course you do, worshipping Nora was a favorite pastime of mine.  I now
have another earthly goddess to worship.  You're probably just picking up
on the residue of my passion.

>In what way do you mean they are valid?  In that [Knot-zee's] killed
>many people?

No, no Ray.  He means that it's valid to worship Nora.  I don't know how
he could really appreciate the full effect though.  I suppose he could
worship from afar.


Gordon
Pro-abortion, Pro-person, Pro-women's-rights and ex-boyfriend of Susan,
Muriel, Cathi, and Nora, and married to the sweetest woman in the world,
and darn proud of it.
-- 

The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: THE IMPLICATIONS OF ABORTION ON OUR SOCIETY
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:02:05 GMT
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada

In <1992Apr8.041649.27301@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> rfischer@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Ray Fischer) writes:

>franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes ...

>Chapter & verse please.  Identify for me where the Bible says that
>human life begins at conception, that abortion is wrong, or that
>a fetus has the same rights as an adult?
   I dont' have the time or the memory to quote the bible. Go read
it yourself...

>And, of course, there is the question (rhetorical, this time): are you
>defending the fetus or punishing the mother?  Don't bother answering,
>I'm sure it would be utterly predictable.
   I am defending the fetus, helping society, and supporting the mother
through her pregnancy... IS that so bad? 

>You claim that I made errors without specifically identifying them.
>What were my mistakes?  Or are you mistaken (or lying) in claiming
>that my references were incorrect?
   I try not to lie... In any case, I dunno which references you are talking
about. Sorry, too many articles to dig through to find the
article you refer to.
   steve
-- 
aasdSteveFranklin-Subliminal Psychology Major.ks;dlasBlueJaysRULEkasdfeahsdbfl
sd;lfaswoq[eBuyMeAQuadra!!!mbnZMXCNdfsba;KdSPAMiuroqiyetIBMSuxiweuryth'ewr;mxn
qpuepriuPartyOneqtuj;,n.,xnc,kjasFlameMeNot!;lkj;lkgkjd;askElvisLivesjhfquweru
zx.cfranklin@ug.cs.dal.ca,sk;t;lrut[Superboy@ac.dal.cav.zx,Physics!eq3rwkh;oHA
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:14785 alt.child-support:1122
From: keegan@kazoo.crd.ge.com (James G Keegan Jr)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Subject: fault-based child support proposal (was Re: pro-choice == pro-(womens' only) choice?)
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:12:22 GMT
Reply-To: james g keegan jr <keegan@crd.ge.com>
Followup-To: alt.child-support
Organization: T.S.A.K.C.

kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:

-> Okay, then let's stop levying paternity child-support (a
-> societal requirement) on the basis of conception (a physical
-> fact), and start levying it on the basis of negligence and/or
-> fault (societal determination). Sound good to you?  That
-> places the whole issue squarely in the correct "realm".

i found this child support proposal in talk.abortion. 

i thought it would be of interest to you folks who read the child
support newsgroup.



--
----
charter member   ...   T.S.A.K.C.
From: olson@acf9.nyu.edu (David Olson)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND!
Date: 9 Apr 92 19:36:37 GMT
Organization: New York University

bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>   I have recently seen posts urging us to find a middle ground on
>the issue of abortion.  The anti-abortion side seeks to pass laws
>that would prohibit a woman's choice.  How on earth could there be
>a middle ground between those that are for choice, and those that are
>against choice?

Well, we could compromise on when an abortion would be allowed, such
as the current compromise of first six months, or any other number we
wished to pick out.  We could compromise by forbidding abortions for sex 
selection, by requiring teens to speak their parents, by agreeing not to 
fund abortions using tax money, or by any of a number of other ways. But 
the basic judgement of who or what constitutes a (legal) person is a 
matter of principle and cannot be compromised.  As such, I think the
debate will only end when one side can point to explicit language in the
constitution.

But the continued focus on abortion in isolation misses the boat:
The abortion debate is not just about abortion, but the role of women
in society and, to a lessor extent, on whether "non-traditional" 
lifestyles receive governmental "sanction" by not being illegal
(e.g. homosexuality).


david
From: GB0012@SIUCVMB.BITNET
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: A mission of mercy
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:16:41 GMT

Would someone with decent archives *please*
send Franklin some old Forgach stuff?
-
The two-sided circle ... the demons ...
infant baptism ... Planned Parenthood
... Mary Magdalene ...
-
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned
to repeat it ... and I for one am getting bored.
-
Suzanne Lucia.
-
(formerly demitrio at husc.harvard.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Oh Steve! Oh Canada!
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 06:29:34 GMT
Distribution: na
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Apr12.161004.18631@cs.dal.ca>  franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes:
>
> "women will [not] sit passively" please refer to the proper group.
> Pro-choic women will no sit passively.

And since that's the majority, that equates to "most women will not sit
passively".  She didn't say "*all* women will not sit passively".

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: mal11@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew A. Lewis)
Subject: Re: So Many Men! So Little Time! (Was: March in D.C.)
Reply-To: mal11@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew A. Lewis)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 02:40:51 GMT


In a previous article, decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz) says:

>You couldn't look it up yourself to support your own remarks?

too lazy...sorry :)

>If you ask for such respect, give it first.  You called a whole
>slew of people you've never met "sluts."  You called many women
>whom I love and respect sluts.  You called decent, honest,
>hard-working, contributing members of society who have had the good
>fortune to fall in love morethan once and done no more than you
>have done, which is to sleep with someone not their spouse, sluts.

I'm not using it in a demeaning sort of way. Simply as an adjective.
I have great female friends who could be called "slutty." I'm not
offending these women. I'm just using an adjective.

>If your girlfriend get shit by a car tomorrow and dies, you
>will never have sex again with anyone?

not until marriage

>I wish I were eighteen and not only knew everything today, but
>knew all of my future as well.

You have age.......which is what I want......I have youth....which
is what you want.

Wanna trade? :)

peace

-- 
MaThiEu a. LeWis   "Achtung ya'll........it's good to be down in America
Thieves Like Us     for a while....and get to Texas.....I'll have a drink
mal11@po.cwru.edu   on Texas."  - U2  Dallas, Texas  April 5th, 1992 
                   I LIKE TO WATCH THINGS ON ZOO TV
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: rja@redwood26.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: Roe vs. Wade
Originator: rja@redwood26
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:39:50 CDT


In article <oeR4iB4w164w@bluemoon.rn.com>, orson@bluemoon.rn.com (Craig Smith) writes:
> I see a lot of paranoia in regard to the idea that Roe vs. Wade would
> be overturned by the Supreme Court.
> 
> Know how many abortions would be stopped in the first week if RvW were
> overturned? NONE! If Roe vs. Wade were overturned abortion would still
> be legal in all fifty states until such time as the individual states
> decided to outlaw it (and many have already gone down on record as
> stating that they will NOT outlaw them. New York, for example.).

Wrong.  Louisian, Guam, and Utah have passed laws restricting abortion
that are on hold pending apeal that would go into effect if RvW was 
overturned.  Mississippi (or was that Alabama?) has a State Constitution
amendment making abortion illegal to the degree allowed by the Federal 
government (RvW).  So at least three states would have abortion illegal
if/when RvW is overturned/gutted.  Several other states would quickly 
make abortion illegal.

> I do not understand all the hysteria.  Casino gambling is legal in only
> one state and one other city in the U.S. and people travel from all over
> to reach these places for gambling. A desperate woman would be able to
> travel to any state that still allowed them.

Yea, we could re-start the underground railroad.  :-(

> What is the problem with that?

The same thing that is wrong with free states and slave states.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
From: emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Eric's Rasmussen Boycott
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:13:44 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: hernes-sun

In article <1992Apr15.121846.1@kscdl1.ksc.nasa.gov> lockhart@kscdl1.ksc.nasa.gov writes:
>Referring to Eric's David Rasmussen posting (in response to "who is David
>Rasmussen?):

>Being new on the net, I also didn't know who this was.  And I read your
>boycott response.  It's a joke, right?  This guy didn't really mean all
>this stuff, did he?


Nope, the boycott is completly serious.

>Susy@ksc

Eric
--
*  Eric Marsh   ---   email: emarsh@sun.com / standard disclaimers apply  *
*  DoD # 1332                                    dragbike pilot for hire  *
*  986cc Ninja street scooter   ----   GS1260 Suzuki Pro-Stock drag bike  *
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: dgp@saturn.wustl.edu (Don Porter)
Subject: Re: NEWS: That NYC Doctor
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 14:53:21 GMT

<olson.703518021@acf9> (David Olson) writes:
[ Re: NYC doctor who botched late abortion: ]
> A number of people asked to me to post further news, when available,
> so here is some more (info from NY Times, 17.April.92, B2).

Thanks for posting this.

> ... He was charged with assaulting the mother and baby, ...

Is this the usual way that botched medical procedures are handled
by the law?  A charge of "assault" is certainly not what I was expecting.
Is there a plea-bargain in there somewhere?

It might be interesting to see how NY's assault statute is worded.
In particular, whether it describes the victim as a "person" or not.
If so, it surprises me that the doctor was charged with assaulting
a fetus.

|   Don Porter | dgp@saturn.wustl.edu | Washington University in St Louis   |
|  "The effect of liberty to individuals is, that they may do what they     |
|   please; we ought to see what it will please them to do, before we       |
|___risk congratulations." -- Edmund Burke._________________________________|
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: judi@wam.umd.edu (Jay T Stein -- shareholder of WeSaySo Oil Co.)
Subject: Oh you don't, do you?  (formerly: The March in D.C.)
Originator: judi@rac1.wam.umd.edu
Organization: _W_A_C_D_T_F, Washington, D.C.
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 19:15:12 GMT

Where it was written: <1992Apr12.172804.21244@cs.dal.ca>
Who wrote it:         franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin)

[ writing to Linda Birmingham ]

>>And the prolife solution is to stand outside clinics shouting
>>at pregnant women that they are killers.  Think again my friend,
>>there is a thinking, feeling person involved in this debate
>>and she's not residing inside the womb.
>
>   We NEVER shou at the woman. We see the woman as a victim like the child.
       =====
>She is at the mercy of society and the political powers. The woman may
>be a willing participant, but the abortion clinics where people feed off of
>society's hate for children are where we truly direct our voices.

This is insulting and incorrect.  You should not have used the word NEVER
above, Steve.  I have several hours of videotape that will soundly prove
you wrong.  Part of the footage is of an anti-abortion activist taking a
flying leap at a group of clinic escorts, tackling one of them and almost
tackling the patient.  Also on my tape is footage of anti-abortionists 
screaming at women and calling them murderers.  

And you seem to be under the delusion that abortion providers hate children.
This is equally insulting and betrays a gross ignorance of pro-choice
philosophy.  I don't hate children, my parents don't hate children (they
had me along with two others, and raised a *functional* family.  And they
are pro-choice), and I know several abortion providers that have children.

Now, you were saying?
--
When a man loves a woman, he supports her right to choose.

     _____     __      __      Pro-woman,      /   -=* Jay T Stein *=-
   |   |      |  \    /        Pro-family,    /
   |   |  in  |   |  |         Pro-child,    <  Internet: judi@wam.umd.edu
|__|   |      |__/    \__      PRO-CHOICE.    \    GEnie: J.STEIN18
                                               \
"Birth is an event, not an action taken by the mother."    -- Doug Holtsinger
"[Pregnancy] is like a harmless slavery of sorts."         -- Kevin Welch
"[it's] up to you to disprove [God's] [existence]."        -- Mark Gaylord
From: forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Isaac Asimov gone?  Oh no!
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:12:16 GMT
Organization: National Optical Astronomy Observatories, Tucson, AZ, USA

From article by tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch):
>
> R.I.P. Isaac Asimov, 1920-1992.  You will be missed.

I am really sad to hear this.  I grew up on his books :-(
                                                       `
                                                        `
They were great science fiction without the sleeze factor!

Well, I guess he's not an atheist anymore.


Suzanne Forgach