HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: onn@hertz.njit.edu (ruth onn ece fac)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Air travel while pregnent
Date: 12 Nov 1992 08:35:09 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


What do people know about air travel while pregnant? 
Specifically, what month do airlines begin to restrict travel? I am
not pregnent yet, just planning, and want to add the known trip into
considerations of timing.
Thanks, Ruth.

Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine)
Subject: Re: Dressing Self (was Re: Spanking and toilet training
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:37:00 GMT

In article <27208@oasys.dt.navy.mil> dsegelho@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Diane Segelhorst) writes:
>But what if the child doesn't WANT to try to learn to dress themselves?

Well, if the child doesn't want to, then you try again later.
One thing that has surprised me with Anna is how much she *can* do
early -- and she really is proud of it, too.  We never would have
found this out if we hadn't started to try to teach her things
that she showed an interest in.  

>I guess I'm lucky that he's never shown any interest in undressing himself
>either - I read lots of stories from you all about finding kids naked
>and wet in their cribs in the morning!

Yes, well, we have gotten that a lot, too.  Fortunately, we use Pullups at
night, and they seem to be good at absorbing pee.  Also, she doesn't take
them off until *after* she pees.

-- Misty
From: llf@alice.att.com (alice!llf)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Examples for discussion (was Re: Plain Talk About Spanking (long))
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:29:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24124
Reply-To: llf@alice.UUCP (alice!llf)
Organization: New Jersey State Home for Bewildered Kittens

In article <1992Nov7.204321.1888@trentu.ca> xtkmg@trentu.ca (Kate Gregory) writes:
>In article <1992Nov06.235228.2222640@locus.com> judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
>>"Your 15 year old is supposed to be home at 8 PM.  It is now 10 PM and 
>>and your child comes sauntering into the house."
>>
>Again the child is demonstrating she is not yet ready to be trusted
>with a certain level of responsibility. The classic consequences here
>would be "you are not allowed to go out alone for the next week",
>which was called grounding when I was a teen. Slightly more embarassing
>consequences could include you going to the party to pick her up
>if she's more than 5 minutes late, or insisting that all social
>stuff goes on at your house so you can send everyone home when
>you think they should. 

I have to laugh at this one.  My parents used to lecture us, a highly
unpleasant activity, and generally avoided at all costs.  HOWEVER, the
consequences that worked to alter our behavior went as follows:  If you
are home late, next time you want to go out, you can't.  If you are home
on time, or early, next time, you can stay out a bit later.  If you are
consistently home on time or early, you can evenutally stop asking about
going out, but just do it, as long as you let folks know where you are.
The carrot of true autonomy in this matter compelled even the most
irresponsible of us to learn to get home on time.  (Beeping watches help, too.)

Lynda
-- 
					Member HASA, Atheist-Scum Division
"The One Horseman and Three Pedestrians of the Apocalypse" - Terry Pratchet
Xref: sparky misc.kids:27742 dc.forsale:2703 misc.forsale:30431
From: goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Goldberg)
Newsgroups: misc.kids,dc.forsale,misc.forsale,dtrc.annapolis
Subject: Baby Items for Sale
Date: 5 Nov 92 00:26:47 GMT
Reply-To: goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Goldberg)
Followup-To: misc.kids
Distribution: dc
Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center, Annapolis, MD

Baby Items for Sale:

Evenflo High Chair - $45

Graco Regency stroller - $65

Changing Table - $75

Century Infant Carseat (Quick release with base) - $30

Total $215 - $175 takes all.

No reasonable offer refused.  Call:  Joy Goldberg, 410/224-4705, evenings.
   /|/| /||)|/  /~ /\| |\|)[~|)/~   |   Everyone's entitled to MY opinion.
  / | |/ ||\|\  \_|\/|_|/|)[_|\\_|  |      goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil
========Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Albert Einstein=======
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: guthrie@nb.rockwell.com (Karen Guthrie)
Subject: Re: Examples for discussion (was Re: Plain Talk About Spanking (long))
Organization: Rockwell International
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:51:11 GMT


My daughter used to dawdle terribly in the morning about getting dressed until
I noticed that she had a definite preference for what she wore to school.  So
I just said "It is time to get up and get dressed.  If you get yourself dressed 
before I get back you can wear whatever you like.  If you are not dressed I will
pick out what you wear."  You have never seen a child move so fast (especially
after a couple mornings where I got to pick ;-) )  Dawdling at breakfast means
that you leave the table without eating all that you would have liked.  (I give
her a large amount of time so that I am not encourageing her to inhale her food
but there was a time when she could make an eggo waffle last an hour.)

Karen
From: vivier@hamal.crd.ge.com (Barbara Vivier)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: A Balanced Diet (Was Re: Halloween Stories)
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:54:02 GMT
Reply-To: vivier@hamal.crd.ge.com (Barbara Vivier)
Distribution: usa
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center

In article <TIGGER.92Nov10123903@satyr.Sylvan.COM>,
tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan) writes:
|>[discussion of letting kids eat what and when the choose, and Barbara
|>Vivier asks for ideas for her son who like to eat cheese and sweets
|>and snack and eats very little of the family meal, which he used to
|>eat.]
nice summary (thanks)
|>
|>You didn't mention in your message, how old is your son, Barbara?
He's 4 (and questions and bargains on essentially every new thing.
Those things previously tested are usually accepted and are no longer
likely to be reargued.)

|>Hmm, that's not *quite* how I've heard the idea presented. You do NOT
|>cook separately for your child. What your child may eat during the
|>meal is what's available. (You can try and be sure there's something
|>that you child considers edible at the meal, but in this case, it
|>might be tricky - have you tried serving veggies with melted cheese
|>sauce on them (it's a quick thing in the microwave)
Actually, this was my point.  I've had an e-mail discussion with Judy.
It seems as though, in fact, most evenings her family does not all eat at the
same time.  Their refrigerator and pantry contains a variety of foods
that can be heated up to satisfy the various appetites of the individuals.
So it really works in that context that everyone can find something
s/he would like and s/he can eat at any time that s/he wants.

This approach would not fit as well with how we've been operating.
The approach that you suggest is much closer to the model that we've
been striving toward; Judy's model is truly "anything, anytime".
I'm much looser about breakfast and lunch; but I don't believe that we
should have to prepare multiple suppers in order to "encourage" my
child to develop appropriate eating habits.

|>I would try limiting times he can eat. Like, he gets 3 meals a day and
|>2 or 3 snack times a day. And during meal times, he can eat what's
|>served to everyone.
This is the philosophy that we have had.  But it does have RULES associated
with it.  And Josh is testing the extent of these rules.


|>I hope this helped (and if you read this all, you get a gold star :-))
Thanks.  I'll stick it on my forehead!

Your philosophy and approach is very compatible with ours.  It's
reassuring that it has worked for someone.

We are offering him only one unfamiliar food and encouraging his trying 
it.  And by offering him a small snack when we begin cooking, we hope to short 
circuit his helping himself to a large snack. 

I think sitting down with my is a very good idea.  I do that for other
issues.

thanks

Barbara
From: paula@helix.nih.gov (Paula Moore)
Subject: Re: Not Limiting Sweets (was Re: Halloween Stories)
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:37:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.182103.1515@adobe.com> riggle@adobe.com (Kathleen Riggle) writes:
>In article <1992Nov05.012123.2220075@locus.com> judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
[stuff deleted ]
>>Well, everyone we know says "Oh, that only works if the only food in the
>>house is healthy food."  They won't believe me when I explain that Mitchell
>>will often choose an apple or a banana over a candy bar or that he will
>>take an entire week to eat a bag of M&Ms.  But he does, and so does Erin
>>who has yet to eat any of her Halloween candy save 3 Hershey's kisses.
>
[stuff deleted]
>meal.  I made cookies last night and I heard her ask Dave for one this
>morning.  He was about to feed her breakfast, so he said, "No, you can
>have one after breakfast."  If she had only eaten 2 Cheerios, he would
>have given her a cookie, but it had to be after the meal.  I find
>myself doing this too.  I just can't give her junk right before
>dinner.  She does always eat a good dinner and then she may or may not
>want the sweet afterwards.
>
>So, (here's my question!) are you somewhat discriminating about sweets
>or if they want them right before dinner, is that fine too?
>
>Kathie

I have the same questions that Kathie did about letting kids choose 
what to eat.  I've tried to do that too, letting her eat what/when
she wants within reason.  Recently though, Mellie (2yrs+) has started asking
for cookies for breakfast.  Right now Ritz crackers are included in
cookies - she'd eat a whole box in one sitting if I let her.  I have 
been giving her a cracker or two along with some cereal, but I'd really
rather she'd eat some cereal first.  She used to eat grapes and bananas
over ANYTHING, and pretty much only drinks milk.  She'll have days
where she'll eat pretty well - for a two year old [ only broccoli for
dinner, ok.  only 2 bananas for lunch, ok]   

Judy and others who let the kids decide what to eat, would a request for
a cookie for breakfast every day be honored?  Just curious since I've
started on one response and it would be too difficult to change (and she'll
probably get out of the phase on her own before too long, right :)

Paula Moore
paula@helix.nih.gov
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 7 Nov 92 08:52:46 GMT
	<25830@optima.cs.arizona.edu> <1dbv74INNstq@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com>
Organization: Sylvan Associates

In article <1dbv74INNstq@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> davids@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (David Schwantner) writes:

   A parent needs to be a childs external control until they can help the child
   develop its own internal controls.

Well, I don't know what you mean by not being explict, but I'll
certainly comment:

Yes, sure, the parent needs to limit/control the child's activities in
a reasonable, age appropriate fashion, and guide them (again, in an
age appropriate fashion) to learning to handle themselves in the
world. (develop their own internal controls).

Spanking doesn't even have to be part of this picture - there are many
ways parents do this:

1) keeping dangerous objects away from babies and young children

2) intervening when a child is in danger

3) explaining dangers to young children (so they can learn)

4) setting rules/limits to keep the child from hurting themselves,
   others, damaging property, and so on... and then being sure they
   are abided by (here is where the spanking and discipline debate
   comes in)

5) giving the child more and more responsiblity for themselves over
   time, so that they can learn and practice self-responsiblity and
   self-control

-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: jschwarz@lonestar.utsa.edu (Jan A. Schwarz)
Subject: Powdered formula vs. liquid
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:21:31 GMT

I would like any thoughts any of you young Mothers have regarding
formula.  My daughter is going to have a baby Jan. 12 and isn't going
to nurse.  She isn't familiar with the formulas (and I certainly can't
remember that far back!) and is wondering about powdered formula vs.
the liquid.  Also, what about the bottles with the little plastic
sacks.  She doesn't really want to use these.  Any thoughts from
anyone would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Jan
From: albert@endor.uucp (David Albert)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:15:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Nov5.051548.28189
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:

>Another thing I might do that sounds cruel to anti-spankers is to
>scold, tell him he's going to get spanked, and make him wait for
>it (and think about it during the wait).  This is how my parents
>connected the offense to the punishment, and I can attest to its
>effectiveness.

I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to answer this article. Maybe
I shouldn't.  I am so shocked as I read this that I probably ought
to let this reply wait overnight, but since I'm having a hard time
putting into words the flame response I'm feeling, maybe I'll
just let this article slip by and stop writing on this topic for
a while.  How anyone could deliberately apply mental torture to a
child and then brag about it is beyond me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Albert				  | Illegitimi non carborundum est.
albert@das.harvard.edu		 	  |
From: judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:36:16 GMT
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California

In article <1992Nov10.001634.8940@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom) writes:
>
>                               .... YOu seem to think it odd that I wonder
>where David Shackelford is coming from with these posts. I think it is 
>important. 

One of the problems I have noticed with this group is that we are long on
memories of inflammatory posts and short on memories of supportive posts.
Anyone who has been at the flame end of the net will understand what I mean.

Alan Y has posted dozens of insightful, helpful, contributions to this net,
but that one post about leaving his colicky daughter in the bathroom to keep
himself sane has labelled him forever as a "child abuser" in the eyes of
the net.  I have such a label from previous flame wars ("Christian bigot" would
probably be the label, but I'd be guessing).  And now David Shackleford has
gotten one.

Any growth, maturity, explanation of point of view, etc. that follow one's
getting a net.label is ignored and unnoticed.  The mere presence of one of
our signatures on a post pushes those flame buttons, regardless of the
content of the post.  We are stereotyped, labelled, and summarily dismissed.

Gee, I hope we treat our children better than we treat each other.

-- 
Judy Leedom Tyrer

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"	- William Blake
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: wang@optigfx.optigfx.com (Alice Wang)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Washing stuffed animals
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:30:51 GMT
Followup-To: Misc.kids
Organization: Optigraphics Corporation, San Diego

In article <1992Nov4.203729.6998@msdhsv.ingr.com> elhowell@elhowell.b17a.ingr.com (Ellen Howell) writes:
>This will probably not answer the original poster's question, but
>it made me start thinking about a stuffed "Snoopy" I had as a child.
>It went with me everywhere from age 4 to about 10 (it tapered off 
>to just having him at night.).  Anyway, it received many washings,
>hanging-out-to-drys (by his ears), and surgeries (nose replacement,
>ear re-stuffings, total body restuffing, head-sewn-back-on, etc.).  I
>used to prep him for his surgeries.
>
>When I was ten, Santa Claus brought me a new Snoopy.  I wanted nothing
>to do with it.  Afterall, it didn't even *look* like MY Snoopy.


My sister-in-law warned me that if I introduce a lovey to Christine,
I should buy 3 or 4 identical ones to save for replacement later on.
My neice's lovey is a doll she calls "Baby" and when it has to "take
a bath" (being washed), she'll accept the doll's identical twin.  She
has been dragging her "Baby" (or its replacements) around for 3 years!

Alice Wang
Mom to Christine, 11 mo
wang@optigfx.com
From: grant@panhed.psc.edu (Shirl Grant)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Count me in...
Date: 5 Nov 1992 10:44:49 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu



>When my husband and I first got married, we both thought spanking
>was a reasonable method of discipline.  After a while of misc.kids
>reading (I've never been the lurker type :-), I became convinced
>spanking was not an appropriate method of discipline.  Several
>regular misc.kids parents convinced me of this, using primarily the
>following arguments:


I too have tried to "come clean" with spanking.  Usually we now use
swats to show that we are serious, but they are only swats (i.e. no pain involved).

I began worrying once I started spanking because it became so damned
easy.  Even though I always explained myself after that act, I felt
bad.  It is now reserved for dangerous things. I am kind of glad that I
did spank for awhile, because now the same disapproving looks, voice,
and actions on my part get alot better results than they did befoe I
spanked.  I have learned (purely by accident) that I can instill total
fear in my child by voice and actions alone.  If he runs away from me
in the parking lot, I grab him, wisk him up, hold him tight and act
*very* scared.  This is infectious.  He immediately gets scared too. 
As I explain what could have happened, he is humbled and worried, and
usually says "Sorry" on his own.

I do swat instead of spank (seems like always, but probably usually). 
Now when I feel the urge (usually when he's not cooperating), I leave
the room, usually after saying "fine!".  I do not like this either.  I
don't think a child's tantrum or uncooperativeness is a reason for an
adult tantrum, but it usually works when he realizes he's not going to
get any help from me.  Now if I could just figure out the *right*
natural response :-)

Another problem is his size.  It is not easy to pick up a 40 lb 2-1/2
yo to get him to cooperate, esp. when I'm 7 mo. pregnant.  But I am
proud to say that I have stopped inflicting pain on any kind of a regular basis. 

So thanks to all for the discussions.  I have read them all, except for
the ones that start as flames - why do you guys bother flaming?
Discussion is all that's gonna change the world - (and am *very* behind
in news becasue of the volume).

-Shirl
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: njamal@unix.amherst.edu (Nuhad Jamal)
Subject: Re: teething biscuits
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:36:27 GMT

Donna Diloreto x2231 dept302 (donna@wyse.wyse.com) wrote:
: I've seen the threads for finger foods, but haven't seen any for infants
: that don't have teeth yet.  Does anyone have any suggestions on what to
: give infants who are eating baby food, and are ready for teething
: biscuits?  The packaged Gerber biscuits seem expensive, and look like all
: have sugar (not that I'm against sugar).
: 

Try the teething toast called Zweiback (sp?).  In my supermarket, they
are found with the regular cookies and not in the baby food section.

I'm almost positive that they don't have sugar, just corn syrup.



: Paul is 6 1/2 months old, and has had a soda cracker once, and Graham crackers
: twice.  I'm not sure if these are the best things to give, so I'm open
: to suggestions.  He loves gumming anything down, and seems to know when you
: are eating food -- he gets so mad when you give him a taste, but finish
: the rest yourself.  :->
: 
: Donna


Nuhad Jamal
njamal@amherst


Newsgroups: misc.kids
Newsgroups: misc.kids

>My best friend (my daughter's godmother and loving "auntie Linlum") is
>a Master's in Psychology, working with children and families.  She was
>shocked that my ex- and I agreed that a well placed swat at extremely
>rare times under unusual circumstances was warrented
...
> After that, Linda actually became involved
>more with Gwynne and the parenting process.  Lo and behold, she found that
>I was warrented in my general lack of energy at the the end of a work day,
>she was amazed that I actually managed to keep from beating my child black
>and blue on a daily basis and even came to accept the "one in a blue moon"
>swat.

Parenting is a tough job, to be sure, and we all lose patience at one 
time or another.  But what I get from this post is a realization that it 
was not Gwynne's behavior which warrants the spanking, but rather a 
"short-coming" of the parent (ie. lack of energy and patience) which 
warrants it.  My experience is also that when I'm worn out,
I'm most tempted to hit my kid.  But I don't, because this is a wrong 
reason to hit my kid.  Why should my kid have to suffer because I'm out 
of control?

Jane Marcus
jane@apollo.hp.com
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Incongruent discipline philosophies (Was: Re: 20/20 and Spanking)
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:22:08 GMT
	<25769@optima.cs.arizona.edu> <1992Nov6.180340.8580@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
	<4893@crl.LABS.TEK.COM>
Followup-To: misc.kids
Distribution: na
Organization: Sylvan Associates

In article <4893@crl.LABS.TEK.COM> sjk@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King) writes:

   Thank you Seanna, for being so frank.  Your statement brings up an
   interesting question for misc.kid'ers on both ends of the spectrum...
   Is it "better" to believe in spanking and only use it in a rational manner
   when other methods fail, or is it "better" to _not_ believe in spanking and 
   use it in a moment of anger?

   The reason I ask is the same reason I question fossil-fuel-alternative
   radicals who drive automobiles and pro-spotted-owl people who live in
   wood houses.  Yes, we're all humans and make mistakes.  But talking one
   thing and consistently living another might cause others to question
   the motives.  I am always interested to know how people view their own
   incongruencies.

Hmm. I come from a different place - I'm not 'believing', I am
standing for certain things. In making a commitment to not spank my
children, there might be times I break that commitment. If I do, I
would make it again, and do what I could to see I not break it again.
I might also be committed to helping others learn alternatives to
spanking. It's a promise, it's a goal I'm aiming for. If I don't make
that promise or set that goal, then I'm more likely to just do
whatever occurs to me at the time, instead of choosing actions to
further my goal.

In the fossil-fuel-alternative issue - I might need to drive to work,
so I might try and use a car that gets the best mileage, carpool, use
a bike when I can, and so on, and then use my money and time to
support development of more alternatives. This isn't necessarily
incongruent at all.
-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish