HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rgrodr1@pb2esac.uucp (Robert Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: The Mother of All Flame Wars, Part 3 of 4
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:36:56 GMT
Organization: Pacific*Bell ESAC, Oakland, CA.

In article <1992Oct11.175619.22471@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.190031.16935@pb2esac.uucp> rgrodr1@pb2esac.uucp (Robert Rodriguez) writes:
>    >In article <1992Oct8.164807.681@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com
>    >(Phil Ronzone) writes:
>    >
>    >>If all the contributions of Dead White Males, a.k.a. Dead
>    >>White Loathsome Oppressors, were to vanish, you'd have the
>    >>Politically Correct(tm) Loathsome Oppressors using dull rocks
>    >>to hunt and the Politically Correct Women of Vision and
>    >>Strength(tm) using leaves for tampons.
>    >>
>    >Of course they would still have a calendar, advanced
>    >agriculture, and be able to perform open heart surgery on
>    >each other.
>
>Really? The first two were done by ???? I.e., where did you ever get
>that time machine?
>
>And the comment about open heart surgery is bizarre.
>

The Mayans invented the calendar, and advanced agricultural techniques,
the first open heart surgery was performed by a black man, albeit
a few hundred years later.  My mistake for being so abstract.  My 
point is this:

Your signature implies that without the White Loathsome Oppressors
our society would still be in the stone age.  You obviously are not
aware that the Mayans invented the calendar, and advanced agricultural
techniques, and that a black man performed the first successful open
heart surgery (among zillions of other things that were not done by
white men).  In one sentence you managed to say that everyone should
be THANKFUL the White Loathsome Oppressors invented all this wonderful
things lest we (the non-whites) be running around using leaves for
tampons.  Pure B.S.

>Oh, and don't forget some of the other barbaric things the Loathsome
>Oppressors did to the various aborigines in the world, like ending
>slavery and the tretament of women as property somewhere below the
>status of dogs.
>

Oh, now that's a good one!  We should thank the WLOs for stopping slavery.
That's like thanking Hitler for stopping the Holocaust.

>Damn us L.O.s' we just don't tolerate some of those "unique"
>indigenous cultural aspects very well now, do we?

You don't tolerate much of anything that is different, which is your
whole problem.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There's nothing wrong with the message, it's the messenger." -- Pat
Buchannan on David Duke

"David Duke is counting on the write-in vote, too bad none of his
supporters can write." -- Johnny Carson

Robert Rodriguez -- My opinions are worth what you paid for 'em
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There's nothing wrong with the message, it's the messenger." -- Pat
Buchannan on David Duke
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
From: jlbrand@pb2esac.uucp (Jack Brand)
Subject: Biff
Organization: Pacific*Bell ESAC, Oakland, CA.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 06:49:53 GMT

In article <12633@optilink.UUCP> manley@optilink.UUCP (Dave Manley) writes:
>A response from BIFF operates on many levels. As you are obviously
>unfamiliar with this form of posting let me enumerate a few characteristics
>of BIFF postings [I hope you find this tutorial informative]:
>
> 1. It attacks those who cannot or will not use a dictionary.

>10. It reduces the competitiveness of the US in a global economy
>    by incuring transmission costs, consuming disk space, and 
        ^^^^^^^^

W0WWZER!%$#! DAVE DUUUUUUDE#$!! HOWKuHl UV EWE&*#..2 GIV YUR 
DEEEEEEEEEEE(praved) ODD-E-ENSE ONE POOR-TICK-EWELARAY *FINE* (thz+ 
WRETCHRO-MACHINISTICKKKKKK) EGGS-HAMPEL!!! %!THEEZ KAHN OnLy BEA KUNSTROOD 
AS KLVHUR CYMBALIZMM und WEE ZILOOD YOO 4!IT%^!!  IN A*D*I*S*H*U*N*, 
&%DLJW JDSSK-- 4 *$## (E HXX GREMPPUM!#== == . 

     k     l        ][    BUFSIZ
.[
    &12
                                                       o)

BIPHUE
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Subject: Re: Decaturville, TN
Followup-To: ba.politics
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 21:29:09 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.185754.719@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, Wilson Heydt writes:
>While I think you are correct in your assessment of the situation, I
>have to take exception to mathematics.  GB&Co. have more like 3
>months.

Till the action takes effect. Notice will be given in 19 days. (and counting) 

"Boycott Time-Warner"
 --J. Danforth Quayle

"The *first* thing we do, let's
 "... kill all the lawyers."
--William Shakespeare

A more noble sentiment I've never heard. But let's spare Hillary...she'll be the best
looking first lady in my lifetime! (I was a Johnson baby...) 

JZ
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Voluntary school prayer
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:08:40 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <12716@optilink.UUCP>, manley@optilink.UUCP (BIIIIFff!!!1) writes:
> In article <casseres-101092161221@kip2-21.apple.com> casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) writes:
> >In article <12710@optilink.UUCP>, manley@optilink.UUCP writes:
> 
> >> What if the legislation explicitly specifies [...] the exact words 
> >> the teacher is allowed to use...
> 
> >This was tried in Arkansas (I think it was) and the courts shot it down. 
> >The argument was that this might be okay if the country had not been
> >flooded with campaigns to restore institutionalized, official, sectarian
> >prayer.  In the climate that has been created, you can say "we will be
> >silent" until you're blue in the face, but every child in the room will
> >know that what it means is "you can either pray now or be quiet so that
> >others can pray."
> 
> Perhaps at first.  After some time has passed I can imagine students using
> the time to pray, to daydream, to sleep, to do last minute homework, to
> make spit-balls, etc.  No one can know what the students are thinking
> and no one is leading them in prayer.  What's the problem?
> 
> --
> dave
> manley@optilink.com

I think Mr. Casseres has the state and the reason the law was
struck down, wrong.  Alabama passed such a "minute of silence" law,
and the courts struck it down because the stated purpose (legislative
intent) was to provide an opportunity for prayer.

I'm hard pressed to see how providing such a minute of silence is
contrary to the First Amendment.  It is immediately obvious why
organized and led prayers (such as were in effect and struck down
in the case of Madelyn Murray O'Hair's lawsuit) are a violation
of the "establishment" part of the First Amendment.

The problem is that liberal enthusiasm for suppressing religious
belief is contrary to the "free exercise" clause of the First
Amendment.  A minute of silence provides an opportunity, does not
violate the "free exercise" clause, and should provide a way for
a public school to satisfy (as much as public schools ever can)
the demands of those who want an opportunity for prayer in public
schools.

Me?  I don't think it makes sense for public schools to have such
a minute of silence for that purpose.  It makes more sense for the
public schools to go away, so that all these arguments can be
replaced with a liberal's biggest enemy, diversity.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.
Xref: sparky ba.politics:6125 ca.politics:8701 talk.politics.misc:52102
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (x4604 (Hauskins))
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Genocide war crime trials against the AMerIndians NOW!
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:16:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Oct15.034534.21466@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>In article <1992Oct13.173811.5030@tandem.com> pearson_steven@tandem.com (Steven R. Pearson) writes:
>
>Actually, as I understand one hypothesis, the current American aborigines
>are the SECOND wave to cross into America, after a first much earlier
>wave.
>
>What happend to the first group?
>
>It is believed that the second group wiped them out.
       ^^^^^^^^

But not shown? not substantiatable? 

>
>Wow -- war crime trials NOW!!!!
>
Well then supply the studies (anthropological, archaeological, sociological) that have
found this out.

Maybe the first group just died out from the inability to survive, and that could have
been through many channels- drought, iceage, disease...

So again stop going off on these strange tangential courses and stick to the subject
at hand- and it is indigenous peoples, how do we define?
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Genocide war crime trials against the AMerIndians NOW!
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 03:45:34 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.173811.5030@tandem.com> pearson_steven@tandem.com (Steven R. Pearson) writes:
    >What's all this I'm hearing lately about so-called indigenous
    >peoples? It's not like they { evolved into humans } here on....

Actually, as I understand one hypothesis, the current American aborigines
are the SECOND wave to cross into America, after a first much earlier
wave.

What happend to the first group?

It is believed that the second group wiped them out.

Wow -- war crime trials NOW!!!!





-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

If all the contributions of Dead White Males, a.k.a. Dead White Loathsome
Oppressors, were to vanish, you'd have the Politically Correct(tm) Loathsome
Oppressors using dull rocks to hunt and the Politically Correct Women of
Vision and Strength(tm) using leaves for tampons.

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: The Mother of All Flame Wars, Part 3 of 4
Date: 11 Oct 92 22:17:29 GMT
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Oct11.181310.23396@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>
>For example, I just read my third book on the history of the development
>of the calculus.
>
>I didn't read about any non-dead, non-white, non-male contributions.
>
Perhaps you should read a book not produced by the bias of a possibly
white author centered in a white culture.

>Perhaps you can name names?
>
Why don't you name some names- and I think I know which ones you will.

>Or do just have "a list here of 30 known communists in the State Department"?
>
>
Slow down on your responses- I have noted several 'mistyping' on your 
part... 

If I remember - it was BIFF who puts everybody down for there non-proof
reading.

Anyway I am not sure about this 30 known communist stuff... if you have
no idea or knowledge about ethic diversity and the contributions of
different world cultures, besides white-euro, then you shouldn't
be so hostile...  the poster may not have been completely correct,
but I do not have enough information.
>
>
>-- 
>phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
>
>If all the contributions of Dead White Males, a.k.a. Dead White Loathsome
>Oppressors, were to vanish, you'd have the Politically Correct(tm) Loathsome
>Oppressors using dull rocks to hunt and the Politically Correct Women of
>Vision and Strength(tm) using leaves for tampons.
>
>These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Voluntary school prayer
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:18:29 GMT
Followup-To: ba.politics
Distribution: ba
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <12746@optilink.UUCP>, manley@optilink.UUCP (Dave Manley) wrote:
> 
> In article <casseres-131092105130@kip2-23.apple.com> casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) writes:
> 
> >The problem is it's a government-sponsored religious exercise, expressly
> >forbidden by the First Amendment, that's what the problem is.
> 
> How is it government-sponsored religious exercise when the students
> are merely observing a moment of silence?  The teachers are not
> leading prayer.

You conveniently deleted the part of my post where I explained exactly that
point.  Why did you do that?

It is a government-sponsored religious exercise because everybody knows
damn well what the "legislative intent" is -- it's a moment of silence *for
prayer,* whether the legislation actually says so or not.

> You have no idea what the students are thinking about
> during that moment - they may be praying, they may not be praying.

So why legislate a moment of silence for them to pray or not pray in? 
There are lots of times in the course of a school day when no one can tell
what's going through the students' minds.  Let them pray *whenever they
want,* as long as they don't bother others, and let the school authorities
think about whether they get educated, not about whether they get a special
break in the routine so they can pray.

> Actually, since students can unobtrusively pray at any time they want,
> whether there is a moment of silence or not, by your argument isn't
> any government-sponsored school government-sponsorsed prayer?

No, it isn't.  Do you want to have a serious discussion here?

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Wow!
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Phil, a Name-caller, too?
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:31:05 GMT
	    <98064@bu.edu>
	    <1992Oct9.163106.4619@netcom.com>
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1992Oct9.163106.4619@netcom.com>
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:

>In article <98064@bu.edu> kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:

>>I think you missed the crux of my argument.
>>You've taunted Gene Smith with "your mommy this..."
>>Sounds to me like junior-high-school level ribbing.

>1. The guy DID use him mommy as an authortive source!! It was no taunt.

Don't be so weaseling, Phil. Just what kind of tone did you intend to
evoke by using "my mommy said so" instead of "my mother claimed"??

It sure looks to me this looks like a taunt.

>2. I've never ever claimed anuthing about being above the fray.

But you sure have implied it:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 26 Sep 92 03:03:19 GMT

Still having maturity problems? My name is "Phil" -- please be adult
enough in manners to address me correctly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,
Boston, MA 02215. True personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in
ones true self.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: mysti@sybase.com (Mysti)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Attractive Nuisance (was East Bay Regional Parks)
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:40:17 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.200115.433@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>
>    man that rapes a pretty woman, and then gets AIDS from her as a
>    result of that rape, sue her?

We are talking about children, not adults.  The rest of your argument
is meaningless because you failed to make this distinction.

Mysti
--
Friends don't let friends vote Republican
Newsgroups: ba.jobs.misc
From: sik@grosz.esd.sgi.com (Seth Katz)
Subject: Experienced UNIX/LAN Administrator Available
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA, USA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 23:48:08 GMT

Here's a friend's resume.  Please  respond to him.

                        Mykle James Hansen
                        1014 Bryant St.
                        San Francisco, CA  94103
                        (415) 968-3700
                        busman@gorn.echo.com

Position Sought:
        Unix System Administrator/LAN Administrator.

Skills:
o       Over 3 years experience administrating Unix systems, including
        Sco Unix, SunOS, Pyramid OSx, HP-UX, Mach, and others.  Extensive
        experience with Unix internals and subsystems, including UUCP,
        NFS, NIS, sendmail, X-Windows, and others.

o       Extensive experience configuring and managing TCP/IP networks
        over Ethernet.  Have also installed and managed Novell Netware
        networks.

o       Programmer in C, Unix shells, awk, Hypercard, Makefiles, Pascal, C++,
        Objective C, and PostScript.

o       Extensive experience assembling, installing, configuring and
        debugging IBM PC-compatible hardware & peripherals.  Experience
        installing and configuring Macintoshes and LocalTalk networks. 
        Extensive experience installing and debugging a wide range of
        peripherals and storage devices.

o       Wrote user documentation for beginning and advanced users.

o       Excellent personal and telephone support skills.

Experience:
August 1992 - present:
        Unix Consultant, DHL Systems, San Mateo
June 1992:
        Unix Consultant, Abakus A. S., Prague, Czechoslovakia
December 1991 - March 1992:
        Unix Consultant, DHL Systems, San Mateo
March - June 1991:
        Software Technician, the Santa Cruz Operation
December 1990 - February 1991:
        System Administrator, the Santa Cruz Operation
August - December 1990:
        System Administrator, Reed College, Portland, OR
March 1989 - August 1990:
        System Administrator, the Santa Cruz Operation
March - July 1988:
        Backups Technician, the Santa Cruz Operation
January - June 1988:
        Computer Consultant, University of California, Santa Cruz


References available upon request.

Newsgroups: ba.jobs.misc
From: LJ03933@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: SJ Merc - Intel will be hiring?
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 15:52:40 GMT

In the San Jose Mercury News, Wednesday, Oct. 7, 1992 Morning Edn.
there's an article about Intel rehabing an R&D place to make it
into a manufacturing place.

Anybody know when or where?

Anybody know of a contact at Intel?

______________________________________________________________________________
Tamara Johnson                * Qualified for: Electronics Design Eng. Assist.
lj03933@lmsc5.is.lockheed.com *                QA Requirements Analyst
|LOOKING FOR A JOB|           *                Electronics Tech, Test/Repair
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: austria@spectrx.saigon.com (henry r. linneweh)
Newsgroups: ba.jobs.misc
Subject: SENIOR CADNETIX PCB/SMT DESIGNER AVAILABLE!
Keywords: CADNETIX
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:56:34 GMT
Organization: SPECTROX SYSTEMS (408)252-1005 Silicon Valley, Ca

I'm back from Atlanta. I was designing broadband telecommunications
devices.Starting from 1 MHz to 500 MHz and from 500 MHz to 3 GHz.
Have resolved nodal biasing problems on complex gnd and vcc distribution.
Am available immediately. Will start my worldwide design tour by 11-03-92
this will be a new twist to my 15 year hands on history in CAD/CAM. You
may leave a message here at this user for me. Thanks and I hope we can
do business soon.

--
austria@spectrx.saigon.com (henry r. linneweh)
SPECTROX SYSTEMS +1.408.252.1005  Silicon Valley, Ca
Newsgroups: ba.jobs.misc
From: sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller)
Subject: Re: Snelling keeps losing my paperwork
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: ba
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 02:01:56 GMT

In article <8163@public.BTR.COM> rem@btr.btr.com (Robert E. Maas  rem@btr.com) writes:
>Has anybody else had this kind of experience with Snelling or any other
>agency/recruiter?
>
> [ long story deleted: about agency "losing" resumes
>
>for? Do we have to put up with this kind of crap?

No.  Why are you?  There are literally dozens of other agencies
in this area.


Xref: sparky ba.jobs.misc:422 ba.jobs.offered:2241 misc.jobs.misc:7090 misc.jobs.offered:12259
From: susan@Autodesk.COM (Susan W. Kwong)
Newsgroups: ba.jobs.misc,ba.jobs.offered,misc.jobs.misc,misc.jobs.offered
Subject: Systems Administrator (level I)
Date: 12 Oct 92 21:11:41 GMT
Reply-To: Susan Kwong <susan@autodesk.com>
Followup-To: susan@autodesk.com
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA

Immediate opening for entry level Systems Administrator.


Primary responsibilities:
-backup and restore of unix file servers
-label, recall and send tapes off site, and test the integrity of dump tapes
-performs day-to-day NIS functions (maintains aliases, passwd, home directory
 maps)
-write and maintain simple shell scripts 
 
Requirments:
-must be able to work early shift (7a M-F)
-must have basic UNIX skills (unix e-mail, unix editor)
-must work independently
-some sysadmin skills is ideal
-some DOS skills (simple DOS commands and DOS editor)
-strong organization skills
-must be able multi-task to juggle different requests
-previous experience with unix backup utilities would be ideal (tar, dump,...)
-conceptual understanding of a network



-- 
===============================================================================
Susan Kwong                                              Manager of Unix Servers
susan@autodesk.com                             	            uunet}autodesk!susan
			"Confucius say: I didn't say that"
Newsgroups: ba.jobs.misc
From: icpa@iat.holonet.net (Tony Rodriguez)
Subject: International Software Jobs
Organization: HoloNet (BBS: 510-704-1058)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 20:47:40 GMT

The International Computer Professional Association is a member supported
organization for experienced software professionals who want to work overseas.
We have contact with over 750 technical recruitment firms in the US and
abroad. If you are interested in working overseas, contact us and we will
send you information on membership with the ICPA.


Sincerely 

Tony Rodriguez

Director ICPA


International Computer Professional Association
2261 Market Street, Suite 309
San Francisco, CA 94114
USA

Tel: (415) 695 - 7618
Fax: (415) 252 - 5769

email icpa@holonet.net



Xref: sparky ba.jobs.misc:419 misc.jobs.contract:3647
From: suresh@tmax4.enet.dec.com (Suresh)
Newsgroups: ba.jobs.misc,misc.jobs.contract
Subject: Contract poisitions (EE/Mechanical Engg) in the BayArea ( Experience Required )
Date: 7 Oct 92 18:50:56 GMT
Reply-To: suresh@tmax4.enet.dec.com (Suresh)
Distribution: ba
Organization: DEC Palo Alto


This is a favor for a friend. Please contact the number given below
for any further ( missing ) details.

DO NOT send mail to this account. Thank you.


Following poisitons are available in the Bay Area.


1)	Engineer: BS EE - RF Circuit Design. Knowledge of Touch Tone
		  Analysis, 20-220 Mhz band using soft board substrates,
 		  RF Amplifiers.

	Salary:	  $25.00 and up (negotiable) / hr

	Location: Mountain View

	Assignment: Temp to Perm



2)	Designer Mechanical; Senior: Min 10 years experience. ME
				     10/30, AnsiY14.5

3)	Designer PC, Senior: Min 10 years experience. Schematic Capture/PADS,
			     AnsiY14.5


 		     Salary: $22.00 / hr for both 2 & 3

                   Location: Palo Alto
                 Assignmnet: 1 yr.

4)	Machinist: Swiss - Storm/Toronoff; set up and Operate.

	Salary:	   $14.5 / hr.

	Location:  Santa Clara

	Assignment: Temp to Perm

If interested please FAX resume to (415)-967-6091, Attn: Sheree

or Call (415)-326-6722
        (408)-733-0261 and ask for Sheree

--
      o o o o o o o . . .   ______________________________ _____=======_||____
    o      _____           ||Suresh Balasubramanian      | |suresh@pa.dec.com|
  .][__n_n_|DD[  ====_____  |                      .     | | (415) 617-3522  |
 >(________|__|_[_________]_|____________________________|_|_________________|
 _/oo OOOOO oo`  ooo   ooo  'o^o^o                  o^o^o` 'o^o         o^o`
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-