HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 11:16:41 EDT
From:         "Dave Windley, Data Comm Specialist X799" <AADW@CATCC.BITNET>
Subject:      Patronizing insults
X-To:         DEAF-L%SIUCVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu

> However, hearing members of the LGB community as do members of any
> minority community need to be cautious in making grand generalizations
> and comparisons of their "situation" with the "situation" experienced
> by other minorities such as the deaf/Deaf community.  Many of the
> comparative statements come across as patronizing statements at best.
> It is insulting to any person who is deaf/Deaf to have a hearing
> person pat him/her on the back either via e-mail or via physical touch
> and say "I know how you feel."  It's very much the same as the hearing
> who feel the need for whatever reason to tell the deaf/Deaf about all
> of the advantages of being deaf/Deaf.  Hearing people don't know what
> it is like to be deaf/Deaf and should not presume to know so.
>
> Ann M. Major
> (GA3955@SIUCVMB)

      Ann:

      It was never my intention in discussion to be patronizing or
      insulting to anyone.  I simply wanted to have people lighten up.
      If you think about it, Hearing people who are aware of Deaf
      people and culture also feel insulted when Deaf people
      continually talk about how wonderful the Hearing world is.

      I am not deaf, but have been labelled Deaf by some, because of
      my close cultural awareness.  I try to maintain an open mind to
      all and have established a goal through my work here at the
      college to actively encourage equality amongst all; to eliminate
      sexism, heterosexism, and audism here and elsewhere.  I
      apologize if anyone was insulted or felt like I was patronizing
      through my comments here on Deaf_L.
======================================================================
   Dave Windley,                       Catonsville Community College
      Data Communications Specialist          800 South Rolling Road
      Sign Interpreter                     CATONSVILLE MD 21228-9987
      GLBO Co-Founder                          Voice: (410) 455-4799
      ITR Club Vice President                             AADW@CATCC
======================================================================
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:21:56 EDT
From:         "Joseph P. Riolo" <riolo@COR4.PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: give me break!!!
X-To:         DEAF LIST <DEAF-L%SIUCVMB.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu>
X-cc:         riolo@PICA.ARMY.MIL

      Whoaaaaaaa!  (How many a's should I type? ;-)

      I do not see anything wrong with discussion on LGB issue as long as
it has some connection, strong or loose, to Deaf issue.  Who knows soon or
later Dave will bring up an issue about Deaf LGB?  If you think that
LGB issue has nothing to do with Deaf issue, then, present your argument
civilly.

      My point of view is that Deaf is a very broad area that it encompasses
every facet of our life.  Trying to understand an issue may necessitate us
to include other topic that has nothing to do with deafness.

      All of the above are my opinions.

      Worf, shields up!  Red alert!  Ensgin, lay in course for evasion!  E...

                                        Joseph P. Riolo
                                        <riolo@pica.army.mil>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: mcke@unixg.ubc.ca (William McKellin )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re: Labels/Words/Labels/Words
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:00:46 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada

The discussion of the appropriate terms has ignored the possibility of
dialect variations is the meanings and applications of deaf, hearing
impaired, hard of hearing etc. There tends to be standardization through
professional organizations, training institutions, etc. for the
professionals, but I have noticed (here in Canada) there is a tendency in
the east for deaf to be both generic (for all people with hearing losses) and
specific (Deaf).  In the west either people do not use a generic 
term or hearing impaired serves this role.  

Bill McKellin                             mcke@unixg.ubc.ca
Department of Anthropology and Sociology
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, B.C. 
V6T 1Z1
From: pmgt1841@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Deaf or Hearing-impaired: Accepted terminology
Date: 14 Aug 92 10:10:02 -0600
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

OrIn article <1992Aug13.193523.1@gallua.gallaudet.edu>, 11telliott@gallua.gallaudet.edu (Zarathustra) writes:
> OwIn article <1992Aug13.071418.10736@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, rwr2875@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Robert Rice) writes:
>> C'mon. And when I say c'mon, I mean C'MON! Why do some people feel the need
>> to try to convince others that a word choice is better than another? Does it really matter? Is one going to complain when a Hawaiian hits the continental 
>> mainland and starts goin' around sayin' "Aloha" when the accepted standard of speech would be a simple hello or howdy. Why do we need to force ourselves to 
>> choose? It's really that simple. People have their own opinions and 
>> orientations and its theirs to manipulate and to express. But please, don't
>> try to force it on others! Can't we see a day where we can just read an 
>> article, titled, " [insert issue] for the deaf" and say to ourselves, 
>> silently, "This guy felt inhibited to use the term deaf. His choice!"
>> Too all these picky, obstinate people out there, "Chill out!"
>> 
>> Peace!
>> 
>> Robert Rice
> -- 
> I never said that the wording should be imposed a l facism- However, I
> question the wisdom and motive behind those terminology one chooses to use. Of
> course, this is America, and I wouldn't have any way otherwise. They're
> perfectly free to say Aloha or Bugger off, or Strewth or in this case, hearing
> impaired. But it does provoke questions and inspired discussion to understand
> each other's viewpoints. Many thanks for bringing it up,
> Todd Elliott
> 11TELLIOTT@GALLUJ (Bitnet)
> 11TELLIO@GALLUX.GALLAUDET.EDU (Internet)


Yes, you are free to use whatever terminology you desire.  However, some
terms seem to give a feeling of inferiority or insulting.  Perhaps the best
expample of this is the usage of 'Deaf and Dumb';  although grammatically
correct (dumb meaning mute in this case), it is hardly a complimentary title
to wear.  It is out of simple politeness and empathy for a person's feelings
that you should use a certain terminology.  However, coming from a more-deaf-
than-not family, it is my experience that both 'deaf' and 'hearing impaired'
are accepted, with deaf tending to mean complete loss of hearing and speech,
and 'hearing impaired' encompassing any degree of hearing loss (which, 
strictly defined, is what 'hearing impaired' means.)

Anyway, the gist of this is mainly this:  Use whatever terminology you desire,
but at least attempt to consider the person that you are labeling;  would
they be complimented or detrimented by the label you apply?


Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:05:58 EDT
From:         Richard Hoenes <V2110A@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info ID
              19 Aug 1992 08:51:00 MDT from <THESHADO@CORRAL.UWYO.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Aug 1992 08:51:00 MDT The Shadow said:
>
>This is a listserv controlled mailing list.  One of the features of
>listserv is the archiving of posts to a mailing list.  The odds are
>pretty good that the posts to this list have been archived.  If so,
>you could look up every post I ever sent to this list by searching
>for my name, Kirk Haines, in the archives.  I believe the search format
>is something like:

This list isn't archived.

Richard
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X-Envelope-to: deaf-l@siucvmb.bitnet
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:06:28 -0600
From:         CONLEY JOSH SCOTT <conleyj@UCSU.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      voting is a privledge

I have noticed that there is some people who have no respect for Roy and what
he is trying to do.

At a request from another reader, and discussions on the list, Roy came up
with a way to settle the differences in a majority democratic way.  Some of
the readers have chosen to abuse the system by criticizing the democratic way.
To do the voting, a personal note was to be sent to him, and the results will
be tableted and given out.  The abuse was that some people decide to openly
criticize the vote before it is given in the manner that is civilized.

In America, the basic right to vote is very important.  If a person decides not
to vote, that is the person's privledge.  To criticize and belittle other
people's right and oppitunity to excerise that basic right, is abuse of the righ
   t.  I know that free speech is also a very important right.  To use it in a
very uncivilized manner is an abuse of that right also.  To abuse these rights
shows that there is no respect for the person who chooses to exercise those
rights.

I ask the abusers to respect other people's choices.  I ask the abusers to give
their votes to the system, and see if the voting shows that the abusers would
be right after all.  I ask the abusers to remain quiet while others use their
voting power.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:55:54 EDT
From:         Marie Coppola <marie@PSYCHE.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: funny misunderstanding
X-To:         DEAF-L%SIUCVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu

heehee  pretty funny.  i have also had that experience but only
very briefly (i.e., the only consequence was a double-take while
reading or something likethat).

I'm glad the performance was excellent.  Sounds like something
I would have enjoyed.  I can't wait to hear about the rest of
the festival.\

So, did you get my message about Reb's book? Will you be around
E10 tomorrow?  I can give you both copies then.

Oh -- thank god i realized you posted this to deaf-l.  I just
responded to it thinking it was only to me.  I will have to
fix that...

see you soon,
marie
From: DMIMI@ECSVAX.BITNET (Miriam Clifford)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re: Info ID
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:22:14 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Seems to me that sometimes it matters whether a poster is deaf, Deaf, hard of
hearing, or whatever, but most of the time it really should make no difference.
I can't seem to be sure my name is in each post, much less anything else :-}

dmimi@ecsvax.uncecs.edu  dmimi@ecsvax.bitnet
Miriam (Mimi) Clifford; 2535 Sevier St, Durham, NC 27705; 919-489-4821
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:19:25 EDT
From:         "Stephen J. Kotchen" <CASK@CATCC.BITNET>
Subject:      Is anyone still THERE????
X-To:         DEAF-L%SIUCVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu

   I am waiting to read any Deaf-Discussion E-Mail.  Is anyone still
Home or Spend time party at Lew' welcome back party??  Hhhheeelllllooo??
(Echoing)  (Sigh)  Oh Well!
--Stephen Kotchen
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
From: rbweinstock@gallua.gallaudet.edu (Bob Weinstock)
Subject: More on Firefighting/EMT
Organization: Gallaudet University
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 21:16:59 GMT

	I am trying to get hold of a old friend of mine who happen to be
> a chief paramedic at Atlanta, Ga..    Good news is that he is on campus
> now and will attend Gallaudet this coming fall.. So I will get him to
> help you..

I think Allen is referring to Steve Shrader.  I gave Steve a printed
copy of Conley's questions last week and asked him to respond.  For
those of you in the Washington area, the Gallaudet University Career
Center will sponsor an information session on careers in firefighting
and emergency medical technology on Wednesday, October 14.  E-mail
me for information.

-- Bob Weinstock
RBWEINSTOCK@GALLUA.BITNET

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:10:00 GMT
From:         TIM_JOHNSON <TIM+_JOHNSON%DIALOG@MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject:      RE: give me break!!!
X-To:         DEAF-L <deaf-l%siucvmb.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu>

... bulk of Dave Windley's message deleted ...

>  Dave,
>
>      Is this Gay Discussion list or Deaf Discussion list????
>Dave, GO TO THE GAY DISCUSSION LIST AND DISCUSS THIS TO THEM. You're
>wasting your time here.
>
>--Stephen Kotchen

Stephen...

Dave's message may have been a little long, but your hostility seems
uncalled for IMHO.  After reading your response, I re-read Esther
Paris' post from July regarding "a marginal perspective" (which I keep
tacked above my desk).  Each of us belong to any number of subsets of
humankind.  Can't we learn something from other's experiences ???

I personally think we can and I don't consider Dave's post as having
been inappropriate for DEAF-L.

Tim

P.S. By the way Esther...  I never said "thanks" for your thoughtful
post when it came out.  It was (and still is) just great.

***********************************************************************
Tim Johnson / Dialog Information Services / Palo Alto CA  94304  USA
              INTERNET:  johnson%dialog@mcimail.com
              MCIMAIL:   EMS:DIALOG  MBX:JOHNSON
***********************************************************************
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1992 07:22:41 -0400
From:         Miriam Clifford <DMIMI@ECSVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Misunderstanding

I think Dave's comment about the "maddening" difficulty of understanding
English (and thus getting the words right) is exactly right.  English (and
most other languages, perhaps including ASL) are not used by simple word
to word match-ups.  The context in which the word is found is always needed
to understand what is being communicated.  However, it is the complexity
of English that makes it such a powerful and rich communication tool.  It
is also why captioning or any translation method is relatively inaccurate
and why it remains so difficult to use a computer translation.  The computer
is not know for flexibility--it is inherantly a one-to-one translation
device.  Understanding English is not.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:03:00 CST
From:         Roy Miller <GE0013@SIUCVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      Voting

Annette has asked if their is a way we can vote regarding the
desired terminology deaf/Deaf/hard of hearing/hearing impaired.
I have taken a couple of mini-polls here on DEAF-L in the past,
and would be happy to do so again with regard to the terminology
issue.  As always, send your responses directly to me (GE0013@SIUCVMB
or GE0013@siucvmb.siu.edu), not to DEAF-L, and I will compile
the information and send out a summary to DEAF-L.

In the discussions here on DEAF-L many different terms are used
by many different people with many different meanings.  Some of
those terms are as follows:

     a) hearing
     b) slightly hard of hearing
     c) moderately hard of hearing
     d) very hard of hearing
     e) profoundly hard of hearing
     f) hard of hearing
     g) hearing impaired
     h) deaf
     i) Deaf
     j) deaf and hard of hearing
     k) oral deaf
     l) late-deafened adult
     m) born deaf
     n) culturally deaf

1. Which of the above terms do you think is the most accurate description
of your hearing status?

2. Which of the above terms do you generally use to refer to yourself?

3. Which of the above terms do you generally use to refer to the totality
of persons who either cannot hear any sounds at all or can hear some
sounds but cannot discriminate human speech without the aid of electronic
devices (such as hearing aids, cochlear implants, or assistive listening
devices {ALDs})?

4. Which of the above terms (if any) do you perceive as being a negative
term, that is to say, as being demeaning, degrading, or pejorative?

5. Which of the above terms do you think most accurately describes
most of your close friends?

Remember, send your reponses to me personally (GE0013@SIUCVMB     or
GE0013@siucvmb.siu.edu) if you want your opinion to be included in
the results of this poll.  If you want your reponse included in the
poll results, please get it to me before September 1st.

-- Roy Miller, Owner of DEAF-L
   GE0013@SIUCVMB     or     GE0013@siucvmb.siu.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:35:44 -0400
From:         Miriam Clifford <DMIMI@ECSVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: voting is a privledge

When a vote is used to enforce a majority view at the expense of the minority,
it becomes undemocratic.  The USA is a remarkable  country because, among
many other remarkable characteristics, it allows everyone to vote and
express their opinion but, most of the time, also enforces the majority
opinion on everyone only where necessary.  At least that is the way it's
supposed to work.

The area of terminology we've been discussing is certainly not one that
NEEDS uniformity.  It really doen't matter a bit what terms are used where.
Our concern would be more important if the terminology we are talking about
was always derogatory, but even then, people really have the right to use
the language they prefer most of the time.  The damage done via the net by
using terminology that some individuals consider derogatory, when it is
not directed at an individual and when all don't find it derogatory (we've
had many who've said they haven't and don't feel the use of "impaired" is
negative), is, at best, minimal.  Let's not send cannons to swat a flea.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:53:03 EDT
From:         "Dave Windley, Data Comm Specialist X799" <AADW@CATCC.BITNET>
Subject:      Misunderstanding
X-To:         DEAF-L%SIUCVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu

> Mr. Windley knows something about the computer programs he's describing here,
> but the silly comparison emphasized above shows that he knows nothing about
> oralism (also known as lipreading and speechreading).
>
> Lipreading/speechreading/oralism is not a matter of searching for "the closest
> match to the word, not the meaning...with total disregard to context" and it i
> not normally done one word at a time. Instead, an oralist or speechreader
> figures out the _meaning_ of what is spoken, usually an entire phrase or
> sentence at a time; and this process uses _context_ in an essential way.
> Briefly, some ambiguous lip motions AND knowledge about the speaker, the
> circumstances, the English language, and the world at large combine into a
> clear understanding of what the speaker has said -- not necessarily the precis
> words he or she used, but the _ideas_ they conveyed.
>
> --David James
> ALAMA10@HUMAIN.BITNET
> DMJAMES@GALLUA.BITNET

      David:

      I admit, you caught me!  English is at it again.  Frequently
      when I am hot on a topic, standing with both feet firmly on a
      soapbox, I overlook the ambiguity that our lovely English is
      famous for.  Now that I reread my memo, indeed people could have
      easily misread my meaning, as you did.  I apologize for not
      being clear.

      Only one facet of oralism can be directly compared to the
      real-time captioning equipment.  That aspect is that both search
      through text, spoken or written respectively to find the closest
      match for the missing word.

      The oralist must make full use of the surrounding familiar
      spoken words to "fill in the blanks" so to speak.

      The real-time captioning device makes no use of surrounding
      words at all.  Instead it uses a search through a database one
      word at a time to find the closest match.  The results are quite
      amusing to Hearing people who do not need to depend on captions
      for a source of information.  However for the D/deaf consumers,
      this lack of accurate conceptual word choice is maddening.

      Again, please excuse my English!
======================================================================
   Dave Windley,                       Catonsville Community College
      Data Communications Specialist          800 South Rolling Road
      Sign Interpreter                     CATONSVILLE MD 21228-9987
      GLBO Co-Founder        AADW@CATCC        Voice: (410) 455-4799
======================================================================
From: annie@PSYCHE.MIT.EDU (Annie Senghas)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: funny misunderstanding
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:50:24 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

I just got back from the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.  When I was
there, I noticed that there was a CODA event and stopped at the info
booth to ask about it.  I remembered that it was a mixed sign/voice
modern theatrical performance of a hearing woman's life growing up
with deaf parents.  I remembered the time it was to be held.  What I
didn't remember was the location.  So I stopped at the information
tent to ask.  I asked where the "CODA event" was being held, and ended
up getting directed to the sober support tent for a CODA meeting!
(CODA also stands for Co-Dependents Anonymous, which is a support
group for partners of people with addictions).

So I arrived at the event I was looking for a little late.  (It was
excellent.)

Annie
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:22:09 -0400
From:         Miriam Clifford <DMIMI@ECSVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: one word curiosity

Esther asks why people want to learn one sign.  This probably doesn't
really respond to her question for very many people, but I wanted to know
how to sign "good girl" because my hearing dog was trained with sign as
well as oral commands and praise and it's often very nice to tell her she
is a "good girl" without voice.  The other obedience commands have the
standard hand signals with them so I don't need sign for them, and, of
course, the signals she tells me about HAVE to be sounds.

dmimi@ecsvax.uncecs.edu  dmimi@ecsvax.bitnet
Miriam (Mimi) Clifford; 2535 Sevier St, Durham, NC 27705; 919-489-4821
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:19:34 EDT
From:         "Dave Windley, Data Comm Specialist X799" <AADW@CATCC.BITNET>
Subject:      Misunderstandings, et. al
X-To:         DEAF-L%SIUCVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu

> Dave, do you see what you have done?  And now, Bryce, you get Oral
> Roberts and the Bumblebees into the act.  Frankly, I think this list
> needs a good entomological communicologist perhaps one with a minor
> in theology to bring the list to resolution.
> Ann Major (Ga3955@SIUCVMB)


      ANN:

      I'm sooooorrrrryyyy.  I didn't mean it......really!

      My comments were simply taken way out of context and, well, umm,
      you know.
======================================================================
   Dave Windley,                       Catonsville Community College
      Data Communications Specialist          800 South Rolling Road
      Sign Interpreter                     CATONSVILLE MD 21228-9987
      GLBO Co-Founder        AADW@CATCC        Voice: (410) 455-4799
======================================================================
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:37:54 EDT
From:         "Matthew Norman/ Deaf guy" <CAMN%CATCC.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: labels, descriptive terms
X-To:         DEAF-L%SIUCVMB.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU

> "Matthew Norman/ Deaf guy" <CAMN%CATCC.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu> says:
>
> >I have never heard of calling African-American, Indian, or Spanish
> >people "White Impaired".
>
> Actually, wouldn't the "white people" be "Melanin Impaired"?  :*)
>
>   Vicki Brown
>   A/UX Development Group            Apple Computer, Inc., Cupertino, CA
>   Internet: vlb@apple.com           AppleLink: VICKI.BROWN


  Right on!

-Matt
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