HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,sci.misc,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Note on Smithsonian psych. exhibit
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:05:54 GMT
            <1992Sep6.230250.27560@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
Reply-To: asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks

Written in article <1992Sep6.230250.27560@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
 by arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee):

: In article <5SEP199223103986@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> 
:    packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:
:> ATTENTION!
:> Please step only on the BLACK squares
:> without any explanation of why they should do this.
:> It was about Milgram's experiments, of course, the ones that
:> demonstrated how people accept authority.
:
: Tell me why I should listen to _you_ when you describe this exhibit.  You have
: in articles elsewhere suggested that people treat news sources with too much
: authority.  Therefore, there are obvious motives for you to post an article
: which describes an experiment where people follow authority.  Tell me, then,
: why I should not treat your report of this exhibit as a hoax, just like you
: wish others to treat reports of fighting in Yugoslavia?

I have no reason for you to listen to the original poster, and I have no
reason to believe any other bit of news he may have.  But in this one
instance, he's probably right.

I recall very explicitly a Candid Camera "experiment" along these very
same lines, and sure enough, their hidden camera recorded people doing
this very thing ... stepping ONLY on BLACK squares.

It was funny because the squares were in no particular order, so a body
had to go some unusual acrobatics to pull it off.  Some went to great
lengths to make it appear "natural."  Some were very obviously being
careful.  Some lost their balance.  Some thot it was a particularly 
stupid rule to follow, complained quite a bit, but complied nevertheless.

As silly as it may seem, people DO follow authority, even when authority
is obviously silly.  Let's face it, we are trained from birth to do what 
we're told, Mommy and Daddy and Big Brother are Always Right (even when
they're dead wrong), and it's certainly easier then independent thot.

-- 
The Chipmunk.
Opinions are mine, void where prohibited, taxed, licensed or regulated.
While money can't buy happiness, it certainly lets you choose your own
form of misery.
From: dab@ism.isc.com (David A. Butterfield)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: NLP
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:21:14 GMT
Organization: x
NNTP-Posting-Host: change

exudeb@exu.ericsson.se writes:
= When trying to help someone else visualize, it can be helpful to prove to
= them that they can do it, even if they believe they can't.  One way to do
= this is to ask them something that they are sure to know unconsciously,
= like, "How many traffic lights are there between your home and your office."
= Now, they probably have never actually counted them, so they will have to
= "visualize" the whole route, counting as they go.  Only after they have done
= it, do I point out to them that they had to be able to visualize to do it.
= I have never found anyone that could not do this...

Well, I can tell you how many traffic lights there are between my home
and my office, but I don't call up any visual image to do that.  The
way I do it is this:  I mentally project myself along the route from
my home to my office, and I count each traffic light as I pass it.
But I don't "see" a picture as I do that.  I have a strong sense of
spatial orientation, and a "feel" for the positions and sizes and
shapes of the objects I pass, but no picture.

Dave
-- 
	I output a string of symbols and I observe the response.
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Re: Note on Smithsonian psych. exhibit
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 12:55:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.230250.27560@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>Tell me why I should listen to _you_ when you describe this exhibit.  You have
>in articles elsewhere suggested that people treat news sources with too much
>authority.  Therefore, there are obvious motives for you to post an article
>which describes an experiment where people follow authority.  Tell me, then,
>why I should not treat your report of this exhibit as a hoax, just like you
>wish others to treat reports of fighting in Yugoslavia?


A very good point. 

As far as the exhibit is concerned, anybody in the Washington
area can verify the truth and completeness of my description by
going to the Smithsonian and seeing for themselves. They'll see
that in fact, I didn't mention that people can, if they want,
learn the point of the exhibit in more depth by watching a video
around in back of the booth. (Few stopped to watch it, though,
probably because of limited seating and a low audio level.) 

As for interpretation of more remote events, I'm working from
the same data as everybody else -- the news media -- so that
there would seem to be no reason for anybody to pay attention to
me. I'm betting, though, that I'm correctly identifying things
that don't "add up." As such, I'm not trying to get people to
=believe= my interpretation any particular event so much as I'm
trying to get them to question their own assumptions about the
news. 
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: kehoe@netcom.com (Thomas David Kehoe)
Subject: Re: sexaul addiction (Should be Antisocial personality disorder)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 05:44:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


I had a friend once who sounds like a sex addict, but not
so antisocial.  He was 26, worked as a baker, and had
relationships with 1-3 dozen women a year.  He lied like
a rug, but otherwise wasn't manipulative.  The women
chased him, he didn't have to do much.  He was illiterate,
alcoholic, did coke when he had money and crank the rest
of the time.  He was bisexual and said some of the men paid
him.  Some took him on trips, e.g. Hawaii.  He never used
condoms, and said he wanted to get AIDS --  I think because
everyone says nice things about friends with AIDS, showing
how low his self-esteem was.

The question was, why did so many women chase him?  The women
were all attractive, college-educated, and often wealthy.
He was involved with two Weyerhauser heiresses (sisters).
One long-term girlfriend left town, and then her mother
started coming over to have sex with him.  Some of the women
were alcohol/drug addicts, so any man that would come over
to drink with them was welcome.  But most didn't have obvious
addictions.  One very attractive, bright young woman came
over a couple hours early, while he was at a bar, and another
housemate and I told her everything I just wrote, and she still
fucked him without a rubber.  I was smart enough not to get
involved with any of women.

Here's an example of his level of intellect.  He told me about
how he was going to buy a key of dope from someone who'd
extend him credit.  He was getting the kilo at a great price,
something like $2000.  It was great stuff, so he could sell
it at something like $5/gram.  I asked how much profit he
expected.  He said he didn't know.  I asked him how many
grams there are in a kilogram.  He had no idea, and wasn't
sure why anyone would care.  I kept asking him, and he 
remembered there's 28 grams in an ounce, 16 ounces in a 
pound, and 2 pounds in a kilogram.  He worked at the problem
with pencil and paper and calculator for 20 minutes, and
announced that there must be 956 grams in a key.  "Great,"
I said, "you can sell the whole key and still have 44 grams
left for you to smoke!"  He smiled and said that this was
his intention.
-- 
"Why my thoughts are my own, when they are in, but when they are out
they are another's." - Susannah Martin, hanged for witchcraft, 1692.
Thomas David Kehoe          kehoe@netcom.com         (408) 354-5926
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Subject: Re: Psychology as Science
Reply-To: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Organization: Ingres Division, ASK Computer Systems.
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:37:14 GMT

Todd Hoff writes:
> After you remove advances in genetics, biology, and chemistry, which
> aren't under the province of psychology, how has psychology advanced
> science?

Example: it's given us a technology to measure the effects
of drugs, poisons, and teratogens, more sensitively and
accurately than previous methods.

Example: it's analysed operant and respondent behavior,
revealed their structure, discovered what factors matter.

Example: it's measured sensory capabilities across species.

-- Jon

Jon Krueger  jpk@ingres.com  
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu (EDWARD CRAIG HYATT)
Subject: Re: NLP  (WAS Re: Xanax
Keywords: NLP  NeuroLinguistic Programming
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:16:14 GMT

In article <16425@pitt.UUCP> geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.003648.19808@news.Hawaii.Edu> lady@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Lee Lady) writes:
>>to go far to find an actual elevator to have the subject get in.  The
>>videotape I mentioned shows a woman with a phobia of bees.  In the
>>follow-up interview they actually have a jar full of bees for her to
>>hold and for a while she even let a few of them crawl on her arm.  (Her
>>comment:  "Gee, I never realized before what really interesting
>>critters these bees are.")
>>
>OK, send me the words to cure the bee phobia.  I don't know if it
>is an actual phobia, but someone I know (and many of you do too)
>goes wild if a bee (or anything looking similar) starts buzzing
>around him. We'll test it out and report back to you.
>
>
Me, too.  Seriously, I'd love to try the technique as an experiment
on myself.  I am irrationally afraid of wasps, I think because as
a very young child I threw something at a mud dauber nest and got
a face full of them.  In one of my classes last semester, a wasp
was flying around the room at ceiling height, and I truly thought
that it was "buzzing" me, specifically.  It's really weird to
know conciously that the wasp *wasn't* flying toward just me, but
still to be so scared.  I started sweating and just got up and
walked out of the class.  I hope the technique works on both wasps
and bees.

Craig


>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
>geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 
--------------------
Craig Hyatt
NCSU@Raleigh, NC USA
echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu
--------------------
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Psychology as Science
Date: 10 Sep 1992 22:50:13 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com


I noticed some people critiquing NLP as not being scientific.
This leads me to ask what has psychology proven with scientific rigor?
After you remove advances in genetics, biology, and chemistry, which
aren't under the province of psychology, how has psychology advanced
science? 

Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline)
Subject: Re: NLP  (WAS Re: Xanax
Keywords: NLP  NeuroLinguistic Programming
Organization: Syracuse University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 16:46:41 EDT

In article <1992Sep10.003648.19808@news.Hawaii.Edu> lady@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Lee Lady) writes:
>
>What makes this especially frustrating in the case of the NLP Fast
>Phobia/Trauma Cure is that the damn thing is so easy to test.  The
>technique is not secret.  It's described in several books and I've
>posted a description in sci.psychology, which I will email to anyone
>who requests it.  NLP Comprehensive sells a videotape for $50 showing it
>being used.  (NLP Comprehensive, 2897 Valmont Rd, Boulder, CO 80301
>(303) 442-1102.)

Great.  Now its a cure for "trauma" too.  And for $50.00, we can get a 
videotape to teach us how to "cure" a self limiting condition in 
15 minutes.  NLP followers discover desensitization - what a breakthrough!

>This discussion belongs in sci.psychology, not sci.med, but it is an
>excellent example of the way in which the rules are stacked so as to make
>it totally impossible for any alternative approach, even the very
>simplest, to get serious attention from the scientific establishment.  

What baloney; yet another conspiracy.  Nevermind the fact that NLPers
are making unsupported claims in a righteous "we've got it all figured
out" kinda tone.  So it surprises the NLP partisans that people here
react impatiently?  Suggests a possible absense of psychological 
sophistication... I guess I'm gonna have to steer clear of sci.psychology! :) 


--
================================================================= 
mark kline                              mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu
suny health science center, syracuse    voice: (315) 422-1050
================ courtesy of syracuse university ================
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,sci.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Re: Note on Smithsonian psych. exhibit
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:14:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.160258.5982@news.columbia.edu>, egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy) writes...
>Aren't you supposed to be in Bosnia around now?
> 
>Also, you might convince more people that the events portrayed
>in, say, the NYT don't "add up" if you present something more
>substansive than a grainy photo you think is funny looking.
>I haven't looked at Lies of Our Times (LOOT) recently, but I
>recall they present their doubts through such things as European
>news sources, etc.  A bit more substansive.



I'm waiting a little longer to go to Croatia & Bosnia. It looked
like I might have trouble getting somebody to drive me to Sarajevo now,
and so I might as well wait and see if access becomes easier by
November or December. 

Eventually there will be a photo that even you will agree doesn't
add up. So far things have apparently been too subtle for you.
It's not just a matter of randomness, as Ken Aromdee thinks.
There is a trend making such photos or news stories more likely.

I've looked at LOOT, and I think they miss the poinof the Times
entirely.
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: Psychology as Science
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:44:56 GMT

In article <1685F6988.JHARTLEY@cmsa.gmr.com> JHARTLEY@cmsa.gmr.com
writes:

   In any event, the reason that I am dismayed with NLP is that there
   are established ways to study some of their claims.  And these
   methods are scientific in that they take steps to rule out
   alternative conclusions (other than NLP does such and such).  For
   example, there is a well documented placebo effect, in which if you
   truly believe that this potion or procedure will solve your
   problem, it is more likely to do so.  There are ways to eliminate
   this effect.  No amount of personal anecdotes can supplant the
   scientific approach for dealing with these sorts of extraneous
   effects.  You need well controlled situations to study claims like
   "NLP cures phobias quickly and the effects are permanent".

Excellent.  Thank you.  This one paragraph sets out the various
differences between clinical and scientific approaches better than I
could have done.

A scientific study attempts to eliminate the placebo effect to the
maximum extent possible.  Clinical procedures (including NLP) attempt
to invoke the placebo effect as much as possible.  NLP training deals
with this under the category of the NLP practitioners "congruence"
when applying the techniques.

No amount of screaming by the clinicians will convince a scientific
reviewer that case histories are a substitute for controlled studies.
No amount of preaching by scientists will convince clinicians that
this or that procedure does not work, when patients have been helped.
Trying to get an NLP practitioner to confine himself or herself to a
single procedure in a controlled study is very hard; the training is
oriented completely the other way.  Statements such as "there is no
failure, only feedback" are central to NLP.

This split is not limited to psychology.  A similar split occurs
between engineers and scientists in most hard sciences where the
fields are taught separately.  NLP is an engineering discipline.

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
Xref: sparky sci.psychology:3716 alt.sexual.abuse.recovery:6069
From: murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: NLP phobia treatments
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:10:46 GMT
	<1992Sep10.003648.19808@news.Hawaii.Edu> <16425@pitt.UUCP>
	<1992Sep10.191614.21818@ncsu.edu>
Followup-To: sci.psychology
Organization: Applications Software II, MITEL Corporation, Kanata, Ontario,
	Canada
In-reply-to: echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu's message of 10 Sep 92 19:16:14 GMT


( Dear friends in a.s.a.r: 
  I have included your newsgroup in my cross posting as this may be of
  some interest to some of you.  Please note that follow-ups will go
  into sci.psychology ) 

In article <1992Sep10.191614.21818@ncsu.edu> echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu (EDWARD CRAIG HYATT) writes:

   In article <16425@pitt.UUCP> geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
   >In article <1992Sep10.003648.19808@news.Hawaii.Edu> lady@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Lee Lady) writes:
   >>The videotape I mentioned shows a woman with a phobia of bees.  In the
   >>follow-up interview they actually have a jar full of bees for her to
   >>hold and for a while she even let a few of them crawl on her arm.  (Her
   >>comment:  "Gee, I never realized before what really interesting
   >>critters these bees are.")
   >>
   >OK, send me the words to cure the bee phobia.  I don't know if it
   >is an actual phobia, but someone I know (and many of you do too)
   >goes wild if a bee (or anything looking similar) starts buzzing
   >around him. We'll test it out and report back to you.
   >
   Me, too.  Seriously, I'd love to try the technique as an experiment
   on myself.  I am irrationally afraid of wasps

   Craig

NLP has several techniques for useful with phobias, self-doubts and
regrets, and since Lee made the offer, I will let him answer the bee
question.  I do want to add one comment to say the last stage in an NLP
treatment, the future pacing, is very important.  If you get no reaction
by visualizing encountering the trouble again, or better still if you
just get a shrug, the method 'took'.  If there is even a wince, you need
to do it over.

I do want to thank Craig and Gordon: their offer returns our group to
the true spirit of science! ;-)

--
Gary Lawrence Murphy - Gary.Murphy@software.mitel.COM - (613) 592-2122 x3709
"When a bird flies up at your feet, you feel startled, naturally." -- Morita
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,sci.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: windsong@nevada.edu (Anne Racel)
Subject: Re: Note on Smithsonian psych. exhibit
Organization: University of Nevada, Las Vegas
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:51:38 GMT

I wonder what it is about the sign at the museum that makes even kids
obey and walk only on the black squares, while when PARENTS tell them something
it goes in one ear and out the other. "Dont walk on my newly waxed kitchen 
floor" is a prime example. Another, which I now work on is "dont slam my car 
door".

I wonder if the reason people obeyed the museum sign was NOT as a response to
authority, NOR as  "good citizens" but because of expectation of reward:
ie that the exhibit would do something or that there would be an interesting
outcome. Besides, people had come to the museum for the purpose of 
experienceing their programs, and were "preconditioned" to follow instructions.
Furthermore throughout their visit they HAD the experience repeatedly, of 
following the exhibit instructions to make the exhibit work. I wonder what 
would happen in a store or a school if an ordinary floor had a similar sign.

I can say with certainty that PhD scientists are unable to obey or comply with
instructions NOT to leave their personal files stored on public computers, 
despite clear instructions in signs on the wall, screensaver messages, and 
login messages. (;-)


Victor Lukas				Lukas@ciit.org
Computer Support
CIIT
Chemical Industry INstitute of Toxicology
PO Box 12137
6 Davis Drive
Research Triangle park
NC 27709
(919) 541-2070, ex 217

(opinions above NOT necessarily those of employer, etc.)

Xref: sparky sci.psychology:3779 sci.med:17420
From: llama@pooh.cc.utexas.edu (sine nomine)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,sci.med
Subject: the forum
Date: 15 Sep 92 05:23:23 GMT
Followup-To: sci.psychology
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

with all the talk going on about nlp and est around here, i thought
i'd ask about "the forum."

basically, it's a self-help program that seems to have foundations in
est. participants pay around $300 for three intensive day-long
sessions and an evening follow-up session, and the price includes a
later seminar. there are also follow-up classes (the one i heard
mentioned costs $700), presumably for solidifying whatever gains are
made in the forum.

a friend has gone to all of these seminars and is trying to talk me
into signing up. he took me to an intro session last week. at first
glance, it seems to be your basic sort of slef-help-book thing: lots
of jargon and buzzwords and power of suggestion, but not a lot of
theory. it doesn't seem to be a harmful sort of thing; i mean, there
were lots of people burbling in jargon but they didn't seem
droid-like. 

still, the connection to est makes me a bit leery, at best, of getting
involved in this. i also don't see much point in paying a great deal
of money to do something i'm already working on in therapy. on the
other hand, the sessions seem as if they might be fun.

does anyone have any direct knowledge, pro or con, of this thing? i
have a degree in psych, but all my coursework was focused on
experimental issues, not clinical.

--
sine nomine
debbie martinson
"dying is easy; it's living that scares me to death" -- annie lennox


Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: TXK025@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Eddie Chandler)
Subject: Cultural Learning
Organization: Motorola
Date: 9 Sep 1992 07:51:52 CDT


Can someone PLEASE send me a copy of the draft of :
Behavioural & Brain Sciences (BBS)
by Michael Tomasello
because my network will not allow me to FTP to
princeton.edu (128.112.128.1)

I hope someone can do this for me and
will be very to grateful.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: jittlov@gumby.cs.caltech.edu (Mike Jittlov)
Subject: Re: Brainwashing - MIND CONTROL ARTICLE! @#)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 10:28:01 GMT

murraysd@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Stephen D Murray) writes:

> I have been looking for information about brainwashing techniques employed
>by cults, Christian revivalists etc. (allegedly) and someone suggested I ask
>if anyone here has any info on it or knows where to get it.

>Thanks in advance,

>     Stephen D Murray
><murraysd@dcs.gla.ac.uk>

Look out belowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Newsgroup: alt.self-improve, article: 761