HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jfbuss@math.uwaterloo.ca (Jonathan Buss)
Subject: Re: Dang Hu Games: Game 10 ('Final')
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:10:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.215146.14647@ists.ists.ca> sizone!justin@ee.ryerson.ca (Justin) writes:
>
>Anyway, as an ex-psychology student (now in math) I always wondered whether
>or not this said something about the way people think about games.  I've
>noticed that if I'm watching something in a game for awhile, and then
>walk over to the other side of the board and look at it from the
>reverse direction -- it appears to be a completely different game.  If
>I stop and think about it of course, I can still see everything the same
>way -- but my mind percieves the whole game differently, and I form
>different "relationships" in my head about what is going on.
>
>However.. when two people sitting opposite discuss the game, they can
>point at it and go "the aji here.." and "the wall there.." and (obviously)
>be incredibly clear in communicating with one another -- despite the fact
>that if they switched positions everything would look strange, and they
>would have to spend a moment figuring it all out again.

Both are seeing the view familiar to them -- no problem.  If they
swapped sides, they'd both be confused.

>Not that this is relevant or important in any way.  I guess I'm just
>babbling out loud, and showing everyone the chaos of my mind.  Opps,
>now I'm embarassed.

The notion that a different physical view leads to a different mental
view is actually quite relevant.  The next time you're in a room full
of go players, look around -- you'll see quite a lot of them hunched
over the board.  How many of the people with their nose in a group are
considering the whole board?  One strategy I have occasionally used to
good effect is to play standing up.  I can see the whole board that
way.

Jonathan Buss
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: mrkeys@orac.holonet.net (Kevin Moore)
Subject: Shogi
Organization: HoloNet (BBS: 510-704-1058)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 11:39:26 GMT


I saw one other Shogi book, although I can't give the exact title,
I remember it being from a publisher called Man To Man Books,
and it was a bi-lingual book, which I think is something that this
publisher specialized in. I bought it at the Kinokuniya bookstore
in LA, each page has BOTH the
Japanese and English commentary about the Shogi moves and positions. I
mainly bought it for the language insight,  but I also hoped it would lead to
discovering if there might be a similar bi-lingual book on Go.  ???
It is a Japanese publication. I don't have it with me at the moment, but I
could get more info if someone is really interested.
 

Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: tcasey@adobe.com (Tim Casey)
Subject: Re: help with X
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated, Mountain View
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:25:57 GMT

In article <v!k-t0#@engin.umich.edu> storm@med.umich.edu (John Starkweather ) writes:
>
>I have been trying to get a X-go board,
> xgoban-1.0.sh.Z,xigs_v1.0.sh.Z,xwidget2.sh.Z
>
>problem : i get this message 
>ld.so: Undefined symbol: _XtAppInitialize
>help would be appretiated

compile with -lXaw -lXt -lXext -lX?? -lX11 -lm, I forget what the other library name is.

tim


Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: bob@stat.lsa.umich.edu (Bob Keener)
Subject: Ann Arbor Go Tournament
Reply-To: bob@stat.lsa.umich.edu (Bob Keener)
Organization: University of Michigan, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:15:28 GMT

The Ann Arbor Go Tournament will be held on September 12. This agrees with
the date in the latest AGA newsletter, but the date in the spring AGA Go
Journal is wrong. The tournament will last one day. Registration is at
9:30 a.m. and play begins at 10:00 a.m. The tournament will be held in
Room 1412 Mason Hall at The University of Michigan.
From: wchaga@vela.acs.oakland.edu (William C. Haga)
Subject: Re: PC Go Client experience
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:34:31 GMT


I got the PC client working better.  The problems with the observe
command constantly giving me "No such game" messages was caused by
the local node I was connected to.  That node was echoing characters
and treating CTRL-H as backspace, which caused problems in client
mode.

For anyone using MichNet, you must use these Hermes commands before
you can switch to client mode using the PC client:

  %echo=off edit=off
  %sty=cha

Observing and playing games then works fine, but loading games is
still a problem.  The client says "Load error", but the load command
does get to the server, and the client then gives isolated move received
messages.
From: pollansw@cse.fau.edu (Warren Pollans)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: games for Nemesis Jr?
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:29:03 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton, FL, USA

I'm a beginner - using Nemesis Go Jr on a mac SE.  Are there game
files that I can get?  I would like to be able to watch games being
played.

Thanks,
Warren

(pollansw@cse.fau.edu)
From: asek@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Strategic games, computational complexity
Date: 30 Aug 92 22:24:41 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska


Computational complexity -- 361! is absolutely ridiculous for GO.
The number of actual -games- is far less than 361!.
Throwing down stones on a board does not constitute a game.
The notion of computational complexity is partly subjective because it
  exists in relationship to the processing features of the human brain.
Certain types of spatial recognition tasks are easier for human brains
  than for your standard bread-and-butter RPN vanilla chips.
Certain other types of spatial recognition tasks seem to be easier on the
  present-day chips than for human brains.

The relative success/failure of a GO program against a human opponent does
  not measure computational complexity for two reasons.  (1)  The measure
  is obtained using present-day technology as a guide.  (2)  The nature of
  GO (vs. other types of boardgames) may be more readily accessible to
  human cognition than the other types of boardgames mentioned by Bell in
  _Board_and_Table_Games_from_Many_Civilizations.

Enzymatic synthesis seems to be easier for biochemical organisms than for
  computer simulations.  The time alone for a process does not necessarily
  suggest "computational complexity".  Rocks may be alive (but moving very
  slowly.  This does not suggest that the rocks are necessarily any more or
  less "computationally complex" than plants or animals.

One may find a face in each raindrop, a universe in each grain of sand.

"Computers are useless; all they provide are answers."
                                                          - Pablo Picasso

:=:
From: psr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Ben the Crafter)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Go Players Address List
Summary: Go server #
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:22:52 GMT
Followup-To: psr@acsu.buffalo.edu
Organization: UB

Does anyone know the number for the internet go server?
Thanks.
-Strider

-- 
Strider                     | SUNY @ Buffalo | psr@acsu.buffalo.edu
Lord Mayor, The Hill People | (716) 636 4862 | V127MHSK@ubvms.bitnet

    "For the good of all and according to the free-will of all."
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: s9874203@titan.ucc.umass.edu (s9874203)
Subject: Re: DongYang Bond Cup'91 Final
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:23:55 GMT

In article <87097@netnews.upenn.edu> jin@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu (Xuegen Jin -Luzzi) writes:
>Hi, everybody:
>
>	As an effort to introduce to everybody international go games. I am posting
>
>game 1 of DongYang Bond Cup'91 final between Rin Kaiho(Japan, 9p) and Lee Changho
>
>(Korea, 5p). I will post the other four games later. Also, I have games from 6th
>
>NEC Sino-Japanese Challenging Series (Super Go), if a lot of poeple are interested, 
>
>I will post them later.
>
>	Enjoy the game.
>
>hurston (1d)
>

Yes, I enjoy it. Please post the SuperGo games, too.

Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 11:01:06 -0400 
From: Fred Hansen <wjh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: IGS - Delay

The only scheme that has accurate clocks requires a client program at
each end:  The client program keeps track of the local clock and sends
it to the server with each move.  

Each client can display a clock of time used by the opponent, but this
clock will jump backwards when the actual time used is received.

We must trust each player to be running a client which honestly updates
the clock.  But we are already trusting players to use their own id, not
look in books, and eschew advice.


I have implemented accurate clocks as part of inetgo, available from
ftp.u.washington.edu as public/go/prog/inetgo72.sh.Z.  This program also
implements most byoyomi schemes with three parameters: Seconds, Stones,
and Extends.  See the description in the go.6 file.


Fred Hansen
From: mdobbins@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Michael Dobbins)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Email go with beginners
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:46:01 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Tredyffrin Engineering Offices

There is an option with mailgo and mgt version 2.2 which will help
beginners learn and play "quick" games via email.  mgt2.2 allows the
setting of board size and mailgo will carry any board size mgt sets. 
So to play an email go game with a board size of 9 do the following:

Start a new game:  mailgo -n<enter>

Answer the questions about player names, addresses and file names.

When you see the go board, type: ^I  (Tab)

To change board size, type: S9<enter>

To get exit info editing and make board size effective, type: <enter>

If you are playing black, make a move, otherwise exit mgt. This will
mail the game record.

This will work for board sizes other than 9. I think mgt is limited to a
max of 19.  Have fun playing with this.

I have attached a sample game record with a board size of 9.

------------------------------------------------------------------

---GoGaMeStArT---
FROM: player2@xxx
FROMFILE: p2.go
TO: player1@yyyy
TOFILE: p1.go
NEWGAME
FORMAT: S
(;GM[1]VW[]SZ[9]PB[Player2]BR[nr]PW[Player1]WR[nr]DT[03 Sep 1992]KM[0.5]C[ Black: Player2, nr
 White: Player1, nr
 Handicap: 0
 Komi: 0.5
 Started: 03 Sep 1992];B[cc];W[gg])
---GoGaMeEnD---
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: stud05@cc4.kuleuven.ac.be (Frank en stijn)
Distribution: world
Date: Monday, 31 Aug 1992 18:54:15 +02
Organization: K.U.Leuven - Academic Computing Center
Subject: Re: PCIGC 3.9 now available via ftp

In article 1992AUG31.100934.10306@INFORMATIK.TU-MUENCHEN.DE, SCHOETT@INFORMATIK.TU-MUENCHEN.DE writes:
> In article <adrian.715024957@milton> adrian@milton.u.washington.edu
> (Adrian Mariano) writes:
>
>  > If m6 is involved, however, it looks like this
>  >
>  > [ 2]          m6 [IGS92] vs.         cfy [ 5d] (155   19    0    0.5)
>  >
>  > I originally assumed that ranks were exactly three characters, but
>  > m6's rank is five characters.  Old versions of igc were not able to
>  > parse this, so you could not observe m6's games or play against m6.
>
> It's a weird idea to have a rank that uses so much space.  How is
> anyone supposed to design a sensible screen layout for this?  Waste
> two columns on everyone else so that m6's rank can be displayed
> properly?  (The output of xgospel, for example, is messed up too).  I
> would simply truncate the rank after three characters.
>
>
> Oliver Schoett     Inst. f. Informatik (H2), Technische Univ. M"unchen
>                    Postfach 20 24 20,     8000 M"unchen 2,     Germany
> schoett@informatik.tu-muenchen.de    phone +49 89 2105-2399  fax -8207
Couldn't resist telling you that the new version of xgospel has no problems
anymore with a strength longer than 3 characters if the players name is
short enough. (I shudder to think what will happen when mister <insert very
long name here> wins the tournament next year).
But anyways, if we have an IGS tournament every year, and the winner challenges
the old champion, just IGS as strength should be enough. Or the server could
just give his normal strength (still nice to know), and have a command to
ask for the current champion. A client program could then decide to do
something special with the display of this person (highlight, colors).
This could be something that only works in client mode, so the ascii people
still notice the champion at once...
                                                   Ton Hospel
                                                  (AshaiRey on IGS)
From: tcasey@adobe.com (Tim Casey)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: **Program needed to print go games**
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:44:20 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated, Mountain View

In article <1992Sep1.023653.15266@husc3.harvard.edu> liu10@husc8.harvard.edu (Eric Liu) writes:
>Does anyone know if there is a mac program that can printout go games in smart 
>go format??  thanks in advance.
>


I am currently writing a SGF to PostScript converter.  It would
be easy to convert to a Mac App.  As soon as I get variations
working it will be released.

tim
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess,rec.games.board,rec.games.programmer
From: s9874203@titan.ucc.umass.edu (s9874203)
Subject: Re: Strategic games, computational cost & implications
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:31:05 GMT

In article <17g9u9INNhmh@hal.com> woodstck@hal.com (Nathan Hess) writes:
>Forwarded message for Howard, who doesn't have USENET access:
>
>
>
>an empty board.  Go could be extremely easy.  If you don't believe me, just
>consider Go with Black getting 5 points of komi and being allowed to play
>mirror Go.
>

But black will collape eventually if he exactly mirrors white's play
assuming the first black stone is at tengen. I don't understand your
point, Howard.

bn 2k
From: viau@wm.estec.esa.nl (Pierre "play-soccer-not-football" Viau)
Subject: WANTED: partner for "quick" games by email
Reply-To: viau@wm.estec.esa.nl
Organization: ESA/Estec/WMS, Noordwijk, The Netherlands
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 10:14:46 GMT

Who would like to play quick games through email with me ?

I'm not beginner, but I have little practise really.

BTW, I need to get the go by mail software as well.


---


Pierre Viau

ESTEC - WMS
European Space Agency
Keplerlaan, 1
2200 AG Noordwijk
The Netherlands

Fax:	(31) [0]1719-85420
                     17400
Phone:	(31) [0]1719-84357
		     83816

INTERNET/UUCP:	viau@wm.estec.esa.nl
BITNET:		pviau@estec.bitnet

Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: wchaga@vela.acs.oakland.edu (William C. Haga)
Subject: Re: PCIGC39
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:40:11 GMT

In article <5457@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> yding+@pitt.edu (Yijun Ding) writes:
>I recently tried to use PCIGC39 to play games on IGS.  On my first try,
>I have missing piece problem.  On my second try, it stopped response,
>(like my phone has been hangup).  Since in both cases, the program seems
>to work at beginning, I don't know the problems.  I would appreciate if
>anyone can tell me your experience with PCIGC39.
>
>Unlike the previous version, I don't have any problem with 'observe'.
>
>-- 
>//Yijun Ding, Pittsburgh //Go your way, be happy.


Missing pieces usually are fixed with a redraw, but if moves are undone,
you have to redraw to see the new board.

I consistently experience a communications hangup when using PCIGC39
on a 286 AT class machine, but PCIGC39 works fine on a 386 notebook.
Mouse works, Alt-Z and Alt-X works, but no characters seem to be displayed
anymore.  This communications hang doesn't happen with PCIGC303.

I've reported these problems to vader.  Warning to everyone:  Don't
delete your copy of PCIGC303 until you've used PCIGC39 without problems.
From: barryp@otago.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: New Zealand Go Congress
Date: 30 Aug 92 20:32:20 GMT
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand


The results of the 1992 New Zealand Go Congress held in Dunedin were

New Zealand Championship

1. Kyle Jones  6 wins out of 6 games
2. Graeme Parmenter, Yucong Phease, Barry Phease 4/6
5. Russell Buchanan 3.5 / 6  (1 game jigo)

New Zealand's representative to the World Amateur Championship will be Yucong
Phease. (Based on a system of points accumulated from a number of tournaments).

Lightning handicap tournament winner:  Graeme Parmenter 4 /4

Handicap Tournament winner: Barry Phease 4 / 5


The main championship was run using a Swiss sytem with a modification to attempt
to achieve a fairer result.  The pairings were done in the normal swiss manner
except that where a player had to play down (ie there were an odd number of
players on a score so one has to play someone on a lower score) the player with
the highest SOS so far was chosen.  SOS (Some of Opponent Scores) is a measure
of how hard the player's opponents have been and it is fair that if someone is
to get an easier game the person who has had the harder time so far should get
it.

This worked well to the point that at the end of the tournament there was only 1
SOS point separating the three second placed players.  The average opponent
score  (SOS divided by the number of rounds) should be close to the player's
own score in a perfect tournament.  There were only 3 cases in this tournament
where it was different by more that 1.  The winner and the last placed (0 / 6)
were obviously going to be playing people with different results than theirs.
One other player who finished 2 / 6 played generally stronger players due to
the problem of finding a suitable opponent due to the constraints of nobody
playing the same opponent twice.

All tournaments were closely contested and everybody had a good time.  Next
year's congress will probably be in August in Wellington.

Barry Phease 
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: liu10@husc8.harvard.edu (Eric Liu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: **Program needed to print go games**
Date: 1 Sep 92 06:36:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Sep1.023653.15266
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Does anyone know if there is a mac program that can printout go games in smart 
go format??  thanks in advance.

-- 

Eric Liu
liu10@husc.harvard.edu
From: sepa6@syma.sussex.ac.uk (David Amos)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Real world analogies to Go
Summary: The Glass Bead Game
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:32:47 GMT
Organization: University of Sussex

In article <1992Aug18.182411.17243@ncsa.uiuc.edu>, rbrown@ncsa.uiuc.edu
(Rich Brown -- Neither) writes:
> 
> The essence of go is the synthesis of fragmentary constituents, protracted
> throughout space and time, into an integrated organic totality.  (Organic in
> the sense that it grows and evolves.)

> Since getting better at go means getting better at synthesizing the protracted
> fragments into a whole, it feeds back into other disciplines. (stuff deleted)
> Similarly, having played go can improve one's musicianship:  The frag-
> mentary notes, durations, and rythms, which are protracted throughout time and
> space, may be more skillfully synthesized into a composition, as the essential
> go skill (as described above) is developed.
> 
> The basic idea is this:  How does one draw together the fragments under
> consideration so that they form an elegant, comprehensive totality?  That is
> the fundamental skill common to many disciplines, and in go we find the
> abstraction and distillation of that skill, boiled down to black and white.

That sounds remarkably like the sort of thing Hermann Hesse had in mind
when he wrote The Glass Bead Game. Of course, he never mentions Go by
name, but it doesn't take too much of a stretch of the imagination to
believe that Go is The Glass Bead Game. Might I take this opportunity to
recommend the book to anyone who hasn't read it.

David Amos, d tos
From: nj@magnolia.Berkeley.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Strategic computations, expensive games
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:45:09
Organization: Postcarcinogenic Bliss, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: magnolia.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: asek@acad2.alaska.edu's message of 1 Sep 92 02:54:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.225426.1@acad2.alaska.edu> asek@acad2.alaska.edu writes:

> I don't so much mind being misquoted ( usually ">" means a citation ) 

A sudden burst of playfulness.
No insult intended.

> It's murky to me what separates an algorithm from a game.

An algorithm, in this case, is a step-by-step method for playing a game.
Of course, the way humans play games may not involve "algorithms",
  as traditionally conceived.
The best way to play Nim certainly involves an algorithm.
Whether the best way to play go does is, I believe, the question you
  are attempting to answer.

> We need to admit that the traditional approaches have not produced for us
> the multi-million dollar program that captures the World GO Tournament.

Indeed.

> The notion "computational complexity" may have a precise definition.  This
> does not establish for us that its precise definition is the correct
> definition.

Is there such a thing as a "correct" definition?
It seems to me that terms, and their definitions, can only be more or less
  "useful,"
unless you believe that there is one true external objective viewpoint
  from which we can judge the "correctness" of a definition.

> The notion that something is "not useful without a definition"

Oh, you misunderstand me.
Terms can be useful without definitions.  Indeed, it is impossible to
  speak of defining just about anything precisely--if you are outside
  the realm of mathematics.
And, as you say, terms are often more interesting when they cannot be
  precisely defined.
But within mathematics, everything is different.
Everything must claim to be defined [precisely and accurately].
The term "computational complexity", so far as I know, exists only within
  computational mathematics.
If you export it, you are accepting this claim of "precise definition" with it,
  unless you indicate otherwise.

I think you would prefer not to speak of things that claim to be precisely
  and accurately defined.
I think you are saying that good ways to play go would not dare venture forth 
  in such terms.

My claim is merely that the only uses of "computational complexity" of which
  I am aware imply precision, rigor, mathematics.
If you do not wish to speak of c.c. in this fashion, then please explicate
  somewhat your (claimed) nonprototypical, imprecise notion of what you
  mean by it, for I (and others, no doubt) simply cannot understand what
  you might refer to, even vaguely.
  
> I am reminded of Borgs assimilating others into themselves.

I believe Borges assimilated himself into himself, if only in a dream.


nj

Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: s9874203@titan.ucc.umass.edu (s9874203)
Subject: Re: PC Go Client experience
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:10:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.100541.2770@vela.acs.oakland.edu> wchaga@vela.acs.oakland.edu (William C. Haga) writes:
>A summary of my recent experience with the IBM PC Go client PCIGC303.EXE
>contained in PCIG303Z.EXE:
>
>3.  My opponent lost his connection, and the game was automatically
>adjourned and stored.  When I tried to load the stored game again
>from the PC client, I kept getting "Load Error".  My opponent, using
>the unix clent, could load fine.  Nothing that I tried could get a
>load game command to resume playing.  Has anyone successfully loaded
>using the PC client?  How?
>

I had the same experience. I think that is a bug. Hopefully vader is
working on it. How do I know? Becuase vader once tested loading games
with me on igs. :-)