HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Church and Rome (or, what do these two things have in common?)
Date: 31 Aug 92 09:35:10 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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Hi Steve, just a little joke there on the subject line.
I can understand how you can freek-out when "wild & woolies" like myself say
something like "the early Church was basically a vague assortment of people tha
t banded together."  I probably wouldn't put it that way myself, but I think I
basically agree with that perspective even though I see where you are coming
from.  I don't know if I am a "protestant" or not...I don't call myself one, bu
t I have been called a lot worse.  I don't call myself Roman Catholic either,
though in some ways I have probably been influenced by Roman Catholics more tha
n any other organization...its just so much of the history of almost any Christ
ian in the West, for better or for worse.
    There were 12 Apostles, but there are over 70 apostles (check it out) menti
oned in the NT Scriptures.  Besides those, there were all those new believers
from all over the world in the days of Pentecost...some of which probably event
-ually went home.  There were Syrian Christians, there were gentile and Samaria
n Christians.  There was the dispersion (several) of the Christians from Jeru-
salem.  Things were sometimes very mobile.  I just don't see the NT record or
history to paint the picture you see.
    I agree with you on many points though.  Didn't Jesus say, or at least stro
ngly imply that John the baptists was Elijah?  In the same way, I believe each
one of us is a potential Peter.  And yes, the Church is built on the Peter
which is in submission to the work of the Father through the Son who is in
every Christian.  We are all rocks in the building of God. Organismically, zane
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Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 22:13:27 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Jesus and Gorbachev

Hi all:

Christianity Today reports that the Jerusalem Post reported that,
when Gorbachev toured Galilee, he made an unscripted speech, in
which he declared himself to be "a lifelong socialist, following
in the footsteps of Jesus, the first socialist."  He also said that peace
in the middle east could only come if it was "founded on the
spirit of Jesus."  The Post said that the most striking aspect of
the speech was that "he clearly meant every word of it."

Curiouser and curiouser.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 10:57:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Avoiding church name traps.
X-To:         christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Daniel, you are very correct in your admonition.  The real church, not the
one most Christians imagine, is composed of God's elect from the four
corners.  Some of those elect are Christians, some are Moslems and some are
atheists.  They will be saved because they are the Elect, not because they
might eventually join a recognized, or unrecognized, church.

We chose to form a non-profit corporation that is not connected with the
actual church group except that people can donate to it and it gives all to
the church.  This way people do get the tax writeoff if they want.  Also,
the corporation gives us a name under which to publish, something we are
working on slowly.  We are careful to distinguish between the corporation
and its legal function and the church, which exists only as its members
meet, not on a legal basis.  I once saw a sign (Yes, I did see at one time)
at a little church that read "The Disciples of Christ meet here."  I
thought that was marvelous.  The building was not called a church, just a
place where the church met, and isn't that the real case indeed?

Some argue that doing away with organizations and denominations would
impair the ability of people to do missionary work.  Not at all.  The
Antioch church was just one, but they sent out Paul and Barnabas, and see
what they did in the world.  Of course, if all congregations were on their
own, there wouldn't be any large denominational organizations to fund
political causes ... but y'all know my opinion on that, anyway. [grin]

Dan Graham
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 00:55:05 -0600
From:         Glennerd Skynard <S05152@DOC.FLC.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Food fights...

Dear Everyone:

     Over the past few days we all have been reading about
debates regarding the soundness and applicability of the
doctrine of the RCC.  We have also watched these turn into
things like food fights in the cafeteria where the
participants had to be hauled off to principal's office to
cool their heels.  I think James said we should be looking
for things to agree about and not things to disagree about.
Wer should be looking for opportunities to spur one another
to love and good deeds.  Most of the posts (doctrinal
quibbling) is not for this purpose and it would be good to
see it become for this purpose.  Read Galatians 2:20 and
change the "I" to "we..."

                         God Bless,



                        Glennerd :-)
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:30:05 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      SEx

Does anyone have any Bible verses or passages that I can send to the Freetalk
group that is right know talking about this sin of sexural fantasy?

How about Colossians 3:5...

"You must put to death, then, the earthly desires at work in you, such
as immorality, indecency, lust, evil passions, and greed (for
greediness is a form of idol worship).  Because of such things
God's wrath will come upon those who do not obey him...
8 ...no insults or obscene talk must ever come from your lips..."

This is from the _Good News_ version.  It was our Epistle lesson
last Sunday, from the NIV, which sounded better, if I remember
correctly, for your purposes.  But evil passions sound close to
fantasy.

Carol Nemec  (YA67@FERRIS)
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 02:41:49 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      I just got this plaque...

and this is what it says:

                     Letter From A Friend

  I am writing to say how much I care for you and to say how much I want
you to know me better.
  When you awoke this morning, I exploded a brilliant sunrise through your
window, hoping to get your attention, but you rushed off without even
noticing.
  Later, I noticed you were walking with some friends, so I bathed you in
warm sunshine and perfumed the air with nature's sweet scent, and still you
didn't notice Me.  As you passed by I shouted to you in a thunderstorm and
painted a beautiful rainbow in the sky, and you didn't even look.
  In the evening, I spilled moonlight onto your face and sent a cool breeze
to rest you.  As you slept, I watched over you and shared your thoughts,
but you were unaware that I was so near.
  I have chosen you and hope you will talk to me soon.  Until then, I
will remain near.  I am your friend and love you very much.

Your Friend,

Jesus

                 From me:
                Let's all try to remember this loving Friend as we
                go through the day.  When night comes, may we not have to
                realize that we have walked as though alone.  Let us
                spend the day with Jesus, whatever we are doing, and
                may we all be able to lie down at night knowing that
                we have followed where He has led.    Amen.

                                                        Love INC,
                                                                 --Kerry
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 10:52:56 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Stray thoughts on Sodom.

Ian said;
> I believe that like the city of Nivennah with Jonah the people had
> a chance to repent, and if not taken destruction would follow..
>
> It is uncharacteristic of God not to give a chance to repent, so even if the
> mention of a 'message to repent' was left out, we need not assume non was
> ever given..
>
> Another possibility is through Gods foreknowledge he knew non would repent,
> so he saved their time and his..
> ]

I would like to add that Lot did tell this son-in-laws to get out too,
they did not believe him so why would the others believe him.
Remember that a prophet is without honor in his own country.



   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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From: jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu (john russell)
Subject: Re: The Bible and Homophobia
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:38:14 GMT

Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET> writes:
...
>So I doubt that if any government on earth would chose to declare a
>lesbigay couple 'married' God would say, "Well, they got me at last. I
>will have to change my mind on marriage..."
...
>>Many same sex marriages have
>>occured _within Christian churches_, but are not legally recognized.

>Neither are they divinely recognized.
...
>>These
>>people can no longer be considered fornicators, since they have been joined in
>>marriage. Does the bible still condemn them?

>Your question rests on a false foundation. The marriage is no marriage
>in God's eyes and so God will indeed punish the sin.

Since you obviously have God's e-mail address for direct communication
to Him, would you mind passing it along to the rest of us? I would
hate to think that your assumptions about God's will are based on your
human and imperfect interpretations of the version of the Bible you
happen to own.

Sorry, I wasn't intending this to come out that strong. I apologize
(but my point still applies).

jr

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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:58:29 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: 2nd coming and Daniel.
              1 Sep 1992 15:28:00 EST from <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

Dear Dan Graham ;

Why would the expression NOT fit the A.D. 70 debacle?
There is strong INTERNAL evidencefor a pre-A.D. 70 writing of Revelation,
however. The context of Revelation exegetically is what I refer to.
Israel's "house" was left to them desolate ... and that expression is a
Hebraism to the effect that their kingdom was about to to be obliterated as
they knew it.  It was the most awful thing a Jew could hear concerning Jewish
Israel. The period between ca. A.D. 30-70 was an interim period prior to the
final catyclism of A.D. 67-70. Some Jews were being saved during this period.
However, as the book of Hebrews indicates, the kingdom was in a process of
changing hands ... the "old" was fading and the "new" was about to take over
the reins of the kingdom.



Jesse
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:21:44 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: 2 Peter 3
              3 Sep 1992 20:20:00 CDT from <BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU>

Dear Brian ;

Study hermeneutics regarding the Bible.

Apocalyptic language employs metephors which refer to literal events.
The alagorical is used to indicate the literal.



Jesse
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:26:03 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Forgiveness of Sins, by priest
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Some facts and water for the fire:

A quote from page 61 of "The Externals of the Catholic Church," by Right Rev.
John F. Sullivan, D.D. of the Diocese of Providence, published by P.J. Kenedy &
Sons ("Publishers to the Holy Apostolic See") in 1918.

"We Catholics believe that our Saviour has given to His Church a sacrament for
the remission of sins committed after Baptism, this remission being affected by
the absolution of the priest, joined to true supernatural sorrow, earnest
purpose of amendment, and sincere confession of all grievous sin when
confession is possible.

"This sacrament is necessary for the salvation of those who have fallen into
mortal sin after Baptism; that is, they either must receive it or must have an
actual or implied desire to receive it, joined to perfect sorrow for sin.

"What about baptized Protestants who are in good faith?  Do we claim that these
are all lost, because they do not know the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance
and therefore do not receive it?  No; they may turn to God in ardent and loving
contrition, and, being in good faith, this contrition implies that they
earnestly desire to fulfill Christ's law as far as they would receive it.  And
so we do not deny that God may be ready to forgive the sins of those
non-Catholic Christians who are in good faith and are sorry for their sins."

See?  No hard feelings.....

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:00:45 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Weslyan holyness
X-To:         christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

	My friend's roommates are going to a weslyan holiness church, and
he is trying to learn something about it, but very few people around here
have even heard of such a church.
	Is there anyone out there who knows somethin about them?

Mark
drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 07:56:21 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Mary and sinlessness

Nancy said,

> be ours through Christ.  But she is a redeemed human being as we are; she
> is not seen as a goddess or as a proper recipient of worship.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~         _______

This may be ture with some, but not for all Catholics I'm sure, because
I remember about two years ago when an apparition(?) of  Mary was
spotted on a tree in our community, the people built a nine foot high
wall around the tree to protect it, and lots of people were going over
their to see and pray to Mary on the tree. Now they have all kinds of
Mary statures and stuff around the block wall. The people were on the
news and everything, and I didn't hear them talking about Jesus, only
Mary.
Just my 1/2

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 08:35:27 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: 2 Peter 3
              3 Sep 1992 16:11:50 EDT from <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>

Lon ;

I will try to do what you say on next Tuesday ... I will take 3 hours of
annual leave to do this and other post chores.



Jesse
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:19:27 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      humor..

Please, this is not an attack against Hindus, please dont take it as one..

Ok..


read over internal email today..

A bhuddist rang the local pizza joint and ordered..
 "make me one with everything"..


Yuck yuck yuck..



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 02:22:04 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Aidan of Lindisfarne (31 Aug 651)
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

AIDAN, MISSIONARY, ABBOT, BISHOP OF LINDISFARNE (31 AUGUST 651)

     The Gospel first came to the northern English in 627, When King
Edwin of Northumbria was converted by a mission from Canterbury led
by Bishop Paulinus, who established his see at York. Edwin's death
in battle in 632 was followed by a severe pagan reaction. A year
later, Edwin's exiled nephew Oswald gained the kingdom, and
proceeded at once to restore the Christian mission.

     During his exile, Oswald had lived at Columba's monastery of
Iona, where he had been converted and baptized. Hence he sent to
Iona, rather than to Canterbury, for missionaries. The head of the
new mission was a gentle monk named Aidan, who centered his work,
not at York, but in imitation of his home monastery, on Lindisfarne,
an island off the northeast coast of England.
      With his fellow monks and the English youths whom he trained,
Aidan restored Christianity in Northumbria, King Oswald often
serving as his interpreter, and extended the mission through the
midlands as far south as London.
     Aidan died at the royal town of Bamborough, 31 August, 651. The
historian Bede said of him: "He neither sought nor loved anything of
this world, but delighted in distributing immediately to the poor
whatever was given him by kings or rich men of the world. He
traversed both town and country on foot, never on horseback, unless
compelled by some urgent necessity. Wherever on his way he saw any,
either rich or poor, he invited them, if pagans, to embrace the
mystery of the faith; or if they were believers, to strengthen them
in their faith and stir them up by words and acitons to alms and
good works."

PRAYER
   O loving God, who didst call thy servant Aidan from the
   peace of a cloister to re-establish the Christian mission in
   northern England, and didst endow him with gentleness,
   simplicity, and strength: Grant, we beseech thee, that we,
   following his example, may use what thou hast given us for
   the relief of human need, and may persevere in commending
   the saving Gospel of our Redeemer Jesus Christ; who liveth
   and reigneth with thee and the Holy Ghost, one God, for ever
   and ever.
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re:      Re: Dear Rome : prove it
Date: 26 Aug 92 03:30:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <BtIzGo.7up@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes...

[...]

>   Furthermore, when one takes the time to read other histories of the
>early Church, i.e. the early Fathers, one certainly finds very strong
>evidence that today the Catholic Church is more like the early Church
>than any of the other denominations of Christianity today.  One must
>twist Scripture to "prove" otherwise.

[...]

	The early church was denomination-less. True christianity has 
remained denomination-less. It has remained an organism as it has 
always been. It has not been changed into an organization.


 en agape,
 Bob
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: visions in Cold Springs [was something else]
Date: 2 Sep 92 02:27:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep1.175557.411@altair.selu.edu>, scsd1055@altair.selu.edu writes...
>>Subject: Their Lady of Cold Springs
>>From: Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
>>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 09:30:35 CDT
>>
>>[...]
>>"They have Moses and the prophets...."
>>
>>Tom Brewer
> 
> 
>	What the heck do you mean by that?  Are you picking on Jews now?  
>Please explain. 

[...]

	It's a quote, son. Lighten up.

	When Jesus is telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus 
the beggar, the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his 
brothers of the torment that awaits them. Abraham says, "No, they have 
Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them" (Luke 16:29).

	The indication from this verse is that there are no emissaries
sent to warn us. The alleged sightings were about emissaries sent to 
warn us.

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:29:34 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Married Catholic Priests

Leo,

There are even more married priests in the Catholic Church today.  In
1918 they were only in the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches.  Now there
are married priests in the Latin Rite as well.  They are former
clergymen of other churches who become Catholics and who receive
special permission to be ordained to the Catholic priesthood although
they are married and living with their wives.  I think the first such
instance was four former Lutheran ministers in Scandinavia or Germany
in the late 1950s.  More recently this permission has been given to a
number of married men who had been Anglican/Episcopalian clergymen.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:45:00 EST
From:         HENZLEEF@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: confirmation versus receiving the Holy Spirit

Dear Bob, thank you for sharing your wonderful testimony with us.
Praise God!  Elaine.
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:22:05 PST
From:         FRANK@LAW.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Re: anathemas

I don't understand why some out there seem to be upset about the
Council of Trent's declaration of an anathema.  It seems to me that
St. Paul set the precedent for an anathema in Gal 1:8-9 and in 1 Col
16:22.

If I am not wrong these where pretty clear and strong condemnations.
I don't want to get into any Biblical/theological/dogmatical and
any other -cal- type arguments on these passages.  But taking
them at face value and not reading anything into the Council of
Trents proclamation it would seem that the CoT merely reiterates
St. Paul's declarations of "cursed".

I think.  I don't claim to be a whiz at this and I hope my memory is
correct on the passages.

Frank
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:53:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Second parousia in the past?

With all due respect,

Being in conformity with tradition is no guarantee that one's belief is
correct.

Brian
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