HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: DEW@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Baron Dur al-Jabar)
Subject: Re: Non fighting royalty
Organization: Orluk Oasis
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 22:20:35 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <sfEzVfK00WB=4FiM4S@andrew.cmu.edu> ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu writes:

#> Joyous greetings of the New Year, good gentles!
#> 
#> Arval offers insightful comments that reshape the question of 
#> (ways to get) non-fighting royalty:
#> 
#> > Why do people want to change the method of reaching the throne?  Because,
#> > as William has observed in another thread, an enormous amount of practical
#> > and symbolic power is concentrated in the Crown.  Giving more people a path
#> > to that focus of power is one way to make the system fairer, but no matter
#> > how the Crown is chosen, very few people are ever going to reach that
#> > office.  There is another solution to the problem: Distribute the power to
#> > more people.  If the Crown were less powerful and less important, then the
#> > question of how we choose the Crown would be correspondingly less
#> > important. 

But you don't have to be king to get things done...just ask the king to do 
something.

Something about the phrases "I beg a boon", and "If it is a right and 
proper thing, and within my power, then ye shall have it" is an great way to 
go about enacting business in a monarchy...

(Yours for more effective monarchs) Salam,

Dur

Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain          
dew@ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)

"I'm the Baron!  Ya gotta loath me!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: real medieval village
From: pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:34:12 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <1gaj9fINNgem@agate.berkeley.edu> cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>Oh, neat.  If you can find your copy, please let me know the publisher's
>name and address.  That's a book I'd like to have.
>
>Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt

Iron-age farm : the Butser experiment / Peter J. Reynolds

  London : British Museum Publications, 1979
  112p. : ill

  ISBN  0-7141-8014-9

  NOTES....... A Colonnade book

  SUBJECTS.... Butser Ancient Farm Research Project (Hampshire)
               Agriculture - Experimentation
               Iron age - England

  AUTHORS..... Reynolds, Peter J (Peter John), 1939-


How this helps,

Arenwald von Hagenburg.
Lochac, West.

-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept		ACSNET : pears@latcs1.oz
La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.			"Well here we all are then."
    Ph (03) 479-1144						-ME
From: kleber@husc11.harvard.edu (Gwydden)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Too Light Blows (was Re: Face-thrust force/Picts)
Date: 22 Dec 92 21:46:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc.kleber.725060770
Distribution: world, na, usa, local

Quoth Carolus Malvoix (Charles Parr):

> >To me, SCA combat is truly _tournament_ combat... not _war_ combat.  _War_
> >combat would also need to include the dirtiest of fighting tactics...
> >kicking, shield bashing, grappling, deadly face-thrusts, etc.  
>
> Yeah!!! Oh Boy!!!
>
> I would *love* to see this done. Perhaps a separate authorization
> process, more rigid, and a different name. 
>
> It would be lovely to be able to practice *real* combat.

The problem is that this still doesn't recreate medieval battles all
that well.  The medieval soldier, as I understand it, was trying to
decide whether how much he was getting paid for this was worth the risk
of dying; many battles were won because of scare tactics to demoralize
the enemy, etc.  In our recreation, where the goal is to *fight*, not
to stay alive, we can't really achieve the right attitude.

Hence another reason our recreations resemble tournaments more than
anything else...

--Gwydden                                 I don't have an overactive
  Borough of Duncharloch, Carolingia      imagination... I have an
--kleber@husc.harvard.edu                 underactive reality...  --EG
From: TALLAN@flis.utoronto.ca (David Tallan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: period calendars
Date: 2 Jan 93 19:28:54 GMT
Organization: The Internet

To take the thread temporarily back from clocks to calendars I would
like to point out that calendars were not consistent geographically
or temporally. Thus, while major saints days (like Michaelmas, for
example) were, perhaps observed across Europe, and on the same day,
other days might be attributed to different saints in different
countries. This is still true today. A calendar of saints' days I
received in Spain is different on many accounts from one I received
in England. Also important to note is that major holidays could be
reckoned differently in different times and places. Anyone who has
read Bede's _Ecclesiastical History_ can attest to the _extreme_
importance that was attached to the different date for Easter as
calculated by the Celtic Church as opposed to the Roman Church.

One source for period calendars is Books of Hours. These always (or
very nearly so) begin with calendars which show the important saints'
days. There are a number of advantages to using the calendar in a
book of hours. Firstly, you're using a period calendar [see subject
line]. Secondly, all OOP saints are already removed for you. you may
find the name of a saint who was honoured on a day now reserved for
an OOP saint but who was supplanted. Thirdly, you will probably get
an idea of which saints were considered more or less important _in
period_ (or more accurately, in the period of the book of hours). The
most important saints' days were often marked in red, blue or gold.
Finally, if you know how, you can use these calendars to determine
which day Easter and the other movable feasts falls upon.

A good source for information about calendars in Books of Hours is a
book called _Time Sactified_ (still in print). I don't have the full
reference with me but I can come up with it if so requested.

David Tallan ( also sometimes known as Thomas Grozier )
David Tallan (tallan@flis.utoronto.ca)
From: DEW@PSUECLC.BITNET
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rulz...Rulz...and more Rulz
Date: 27 Dec 92 20:49:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings!

Most often, the cause of rules is "somebody did something I didn't like, so
let us dissallow it for future use."  This basically implies that rules are an
afterthought.  Then, most rules hag around long after they have out-lived
their purpose.

Case in point:  The Middle Kingdom's Closed List policy -- does it still serve
the purpose of its creators?  Was its purpose made known, and if so, has it
been effective in accomplishing that purpose?

(Bertram suggests that the rules precludes "dark horse kings"...When was the
last you time saw Duke Laurelin's profile?)

Second Case:  Pennsic Land Grab -- though the rules change yearly, the general
purpose is supposed to prevent inequatible distribution of a limited set of
assets.

Both of these well known topics have been discussed to death.  Yet, they are
still imposed as rules that we must abide by or cease playing the game.

As a simple example, the local group has "customs", not rules.  One of these
customs is that any new business at one meeting may not be voted on until the
next meeting (a railroading prevention step installed to stop a former member
from ramming through important business when a quorum of local members were
not present.)  While this is a reasonable "custom" and none suffer by it, it
still remains in practice when it is no longer really needed.

(Of course, I favor a system without rules -- it prevents cheating and
khanfuses the Dark Horde.)

How would you dispose of these rules?  A (modern) jurist posed the solution,
"To remove a bad law, it must be enforced strictly."  To accomplish this you
could demand that the king, who has sworn to uphold the law, take every action
to see that a particular law is obeyed to the letter.  There would likely be a
minor revolt in Curia and the offending law repealed (no king really _wants_
to be unpopular.)

On a final note:  Numbering rules gives the average person no knowledge why a
rule exists.  If we started naming rules after the person that caused them to
be created, one might think twice before doing something that would have their
name imortalized in print.  Such as,

The Bertram rule:  Thou shalt not bring up the topic of rules on the Rialto.
The punishment shall be having thy mail-box stuffed with letters reminding
thee of the rule (punishment should fit the crime, nes pas?)

Dur T. Nasty (Olde Barron)
Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain
dew@ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)

"I'm the Baron!  Ya gotta loath me!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Thinkwell; Drachenwald ideas; Alternate Crown Types
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 21:15:56 GMT

In article <9212311907.AA23396@inmet.camb.inmet.com> justin@inmet.camb.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks) writes:
>
>Re: William's ideas for Drachenwald
>
>>   a. Decrease the specialization of the three orders, so that candi-
>>      dates are as free as possible in choosing which peerage they
>>      wish to belong to. For example, a person whose main contributions
>>      are A&S, but who is also a competent fighter, might be made a
>>      knight instead of a laurel if he so wishes, and vice versa.
>
>What a marvellous hack. You might be able to get away with this one
>politically, too. I like it...

That smoke you see pouring from my ears is from my trying to think....

It occurs to me that there is (somewhere--certainly in West Kingdom
Law and I *think* in Corpora) a requirement for the Royalty to
'consult with the Order(s)' before elevating anyone to them.  However,
I don't seem to recall anything that binds to consult *only* with the
specific order in question.  It would--even under current West K.
Law--for the King to convene *all* Peers to consider *all* candidates.
There are numerous people who would get bent seriously out of shape if
it were tried here (it has been noted by one Duke that you could throw
out the entire body of West K. Law and nothing would change, as we are
truly governed by Tradition...), but I don't think there is a
*codified* reason why this could not be done.

>Speaking from the US point-of-view: around here, explicitly outlawing
>something like that would crystallize a movement, and would almost
>guarantee that it would eventually happen. It's considerably more
>effective to starve the activity of attention, and just not encourage
>it, I think...
>
>(Of course, being a late 16th century type myself, I'm not terribly
>fond of the idea of eliminating fence, but far be it from me to tell
>you what you can or can't do with your group...)

You may not wish to move to the West, in that case.  Fencing is
practically unheard of--to the distress of a few folks who have moved
in from out of kingdom.  The opinions on the subject of some of the
local Chivalry are also 'interesting'.    :-)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spinning and Weaving
Date: 28 Dec 92 13:48:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <921225091325.2060ad19@CC.SUU.EDU> WITHERSPOON@suuper.cc.suu.EDU (Tazmaniac) writes:
>Good gentles, I have developed a strong and sudden urge to learn
>more about the textile arts, particularly spinning, carding and
>weaving.  I am in need of sources for spinning wheels (preferably
>kits, as I would at least like to finish it myself) and carders,
>and titles of books which take one through the process from
>cleaning the wool through carding and spinning, through dyeing. 
>There are classes on weaving taught at the local University.  My
>goal is to produce a hand-woven cloak by next winter.  

	The major manufacturers of spinning and supplies in the US are

	Louet  
		(Canada)  613 925 4502
	Ashford
		Crystal Palace Yarns
		3006 San Pablo Avenue, Dept 6
		Berkeley, CA 94702
	Shacht Spindle Company
		6101 Ben Place
		Boulder, Co 80301

	Contact these companies for a catalog and a list of dealers who
carry their products. If I knew where you were, I could give you the name
of a local spinning guild. I also highly recommend a subscription to Spin-Off
(The Magazine for Handspinners (yes there is one!)) from Interweave Press
303 669-7672. The magazine comes out 4 times a year, a subscription is $18 and
it is worth it just for the advertisements :) They also publish all the best
spinning and weaving books - ask them for a catalog. Books I particulary
recommend for the practical side (as opposed to research sources) are 
The Care and Feeding of Spinning Wheels by Karen Pauli (choosing a wheel and
keeping it in good running order) and Warping All by Yourself (I can't remember
who wrote this but it is fantastic for teaching yourself which is what I did).
For actually learning to spin, non of the books I have are really fantastic,
but they all cover the basics. If you can't find a teacher pretty much any
of them will do, but be prepared to experiment. Interweave Press has one 
called Hands On Spinning by Lee Raven, I don't own it - it came out after I
stopped buying beginner books - but it looks good.
	Good luck, have fun, and if you have any more questions feel free to 
email me.
		-Ilaine

	
-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	We're going to try an experiment now. Instead of using
                   | 	a loom, we're going to wind all the yarn into balls
ilaine@panix.com   |    and adopt an infinite number of kittens...
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Fighting for Crown..Another question.
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1993 02:26:06

>Have _both_ members of a prospective Royal couple 
>ever entered a Crown list?
>Or is this explicitly ruled out?
>
 MAC> Certainly it happens. As a matter of fact 
 MAC> (Ansteorrans, please correct
 MAC> me if this is incorrect) WHen Dutchess Sir Rowan 
 MAC> became the first lady
 MAC> ever to win a crown tournament, her opponent in the final bout was
 MAC> Duke Hector. Her lord.
 Yes, that's correct.  Also, Sir Elzasif was in the same list that Sir 
 Finn won for her.  And in the one where they both got knocked out in 
 the semi-finals.  Those are the only specifics I can think of.  I 
 don't know if Regina was in this last Crown list, which her Significant 
 Other won (Sutan Bloodaxe)....
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth, Steppes Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions... 
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 23:23:22

    Pagan le Chaunster wrote:

 JG> Gentle lord, may I take your last point first:

 JG> "The Society is based on the landed nobility of the JG> European
 JG> Middle Ages and Renaissance" (_The Society for Creative Anachronism
 JG> Organisational Handbook_ (Oct 89), "Scope of the Society", p. 74).

 JG> I believe the other statement of scope mentions "Western Civilisation".

    Actually, the term used by Corpora and the Articles of Incorporation is
    "pre-17th century Western culture".

 JG> Neither of these, good my lord, makes mention of "Western Europe" and
 JG> it is a cause of quite some concern to me that you seem determined to
 JG> apply your personal preference of the confines of period, which you
 JG> state as:

 > [south of the Trent, north of the Loire, west of the Rhine, 1100-1400,
 > is Tadhg's preference.... if you want to be precise.],

 JG> to the entirity of the Society's heraldry.

    As the above quotation makes clear, those are my *preference*; I
    nowhere suggest any "determination to apply my personal preferences to
    the entirety of Society heraldry" ... unlike Master Arval, I should
    like to point out. Perhaps your concern might be more appropriately
    directed toward him.

    And, to address your original point, if you would care to present any
    evidence that "Western culture" and "Western Europe" are not
    functionally synonymous, I'd be quite interested; many seem to be under
    the impression that there is some significant difference between the
    two.

 JG> Indeed, SCA heraldry is SCA heraldry, but surely the realm of possible
 JG> SCA armory should at least contain the body of heraldry from the times
 JG> and places of the SCA's period.  If there is, as you seem to suggest,
 JG> no point of contact between Society heraldry and actual historical
 JG> heraldry from period, why don't we just go the whole hog and create an
 JG> heraldic corpus with our own creatively anachronistic charges?

    "Bog beast", "compass star", "Cross of Samildanach", "star cross", "Dun
    dragon", "honeycombed", "maily", "Hrassvelg monster", "mascle knot",
    "riven star", "Piping beast", and "pawprints" come immediately to mind
    -- no doubt a careful combing of the *Pictorial Dictionary* could
    double that list.

 JG> My lord, it appears that you wish to apply the strictures of modern
 JG> English heraldry to a limited range of mostly French and English
 JG> medieval heraldic possibilities.

    I see nothing in any of my statements, public or private, in favor of
    "modern English heraldry"; if you perceive any such, then you are
    mistaken. As you so clearly cited above, my preferences are for
    classical Anglo-French heraldry of the High Middle Ages; how you equate
    that with "the strictures of modern English heraldry" I cannot fathom.

Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: 31 Dec 92 13:58:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC


jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley) writes:
> Remember that, no matter the time of year, there are twelve equal hours
> of day and twelve of night; so that in winter day hours are much shorter
> than night hours.
>
>3. Does anyone out there know of any self-adjusting timepieces that would take
>this stretching and shrinking of hours into account?

	Certainly milord - the sundial. I believe the Romans measured time by
12 daylight hours and 3 night watches.
		-Ilaine
-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	We're going to try an experiment now. Instead of using
                   | 	a loom, we're going to wind all the yarn into balls
ilaine@panix.com   |    and adopt an infinite number of kittens...
From: kleber@husc11.harvard.edu (Gwydden)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 24 Dec 92 00:42:13 GMT

Quoth Arval, in response to Landi:

> > I'd really like to make it to Pennsic again, or one of the other big
> > gatherings (is there going to be a Thirty Year Celebration?) and I'd like
> > to be able to tell my friends to look for my banner without worrying
> > about the possible dozen or so other banners with the same device...
>
> I think this is a serious exaggeration of the potential problem.  First of
> all, it is unlikely that so many people will design the same device.

Really?  I don't think it's that much of an exaggeration at all, in fact.
If we eliminated all conflict-checking, I'd be surprised if there weren't
easily half-a-dozen "Azure, a bend Or" by the next Pennsic, or other
similar extra-ordinari-ly (wince) simple designs.

> I think one can gauge the likely number of multiple-usages of a device by
> considering how often a submission is returned for identical conflict with
> another SCA device.  In my experience, that is rare.  It happens, but it is
> rare.

Ah, but the fact that is is rare is only becuase people *know* that
they need to worry about conflict-- if everyone knew conflict didn't 
matter, they would think of much simpler things from the beginning.

>       Second, you are assuming that if we eliminate the current mechanism
> for enforcing (or at least encouraging) SCA-wide armorial uniqueness,
> people will make no attempt to achieve that goal on their own or
> kingdom-by-kingdom.  I think that is an unlikely eventuality.  I suspect
> that if Laurel and the College of Arms got out of the job of armorial
> uniqueness, other, informal means of achieving the same goal would spring
> up around the SCA.

I do agree that some people would strive to maintain uniqueness-- that is,
would check to insure no one else was using a set of arms before they
adopted it.  The ones who went to this effort are the ones who would be 
annoyed when someone else later started using the same arms, not caring
about uniqueness.

--Gwydden Lawen                           I don't have an overactive
  Borough of Duncharloch, Carolingia      imagination... I have an
--kleber@husc.harvard.edu                 underactive reality...  --EG
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley)
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 17:36:58 GMT
Organization: Evolving Systems, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
: jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley) writeth:
: 
:  JWW> Remember that, no matter the time of year, there are twelve equal hours
:  JWW> of day and twelve of night; so that in winter day hours are much shorter
:  JWW> than night hours.
: 
: Three questions.
: 
: 1. Are you pulling our legs?  If no, proceed to 2....

Never!  (Well, seldom.)
 
: 2. This implies that sunrise and sunset are at x:00 AM and x:00 PM respectively.
:  What is x?  I would guess 6 since it's halfway.  Yes?

At the equinoxes, sunrise and sunset are at local 6 am and 6pm, no matter
where you are.  But local 6am needs to be adjusted a little to match your
clock, since the late-19th-century institution of one-hour-wide time
zones.  (Nota bene: the SCA should use local time!)  The good news is
that for any place, the adjustment is a constant.  (You can find what it
is for your city by noting the local sunrise or sunset time on March 21 --
the adjustment is the difference from 6:00.  Or ask a local orthodox Jew --
they need to know the adjustment so as to start Sabbath at the right time.
Or you can do it by knowing your longitude modulo 15 degrees, but let's
not get into that.)  For a good, clear (and period!) explanation of
solar movement as it affects timekeeping in various latitudes and at
various times of year, check out Dante's _Convivio_ (a.k.a. _Convito_).

: 3. Does anyone out there know of any self-adjusting timepieces that would take
: this stretching and shrinking of hours into account?

Ancient timepieces *had* to adjust, so they had their central gears mounted
eccentrically in various odd schemes.  There are sketches of old water-
clocks that tried (with what degree of success, who knows?) to make the
drip-hole smaller for small-hour times of the year.  But beginning about
the 15th century, with good mechanical clockwork making such great
advances, nearly everybody went to equal hours day and night all year.
There's a good section in Vitruvius' _De_Architectura_Decem_Libri_ about
clocks.
-- 
Fr. John Woolley (jww@evolving.com); vastly enthusiastic about Augustine,
Austen, babies, Bach, backgammon, baseball, beer, the Bible, Botticelli, Burke,
Chesterton, Dante, Dixieland, hardboiled, Hitchcock, Dr Johnson, Latin, Mozart,
Shakespeare/de Vere, St Teresa, Tolkien, Trollope, Fats Waller, and Washington
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet