HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil
Date: 5 Jan 1993 17:03:43 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM (Terry Gardner) says:

>What was finally decided about the nature of Tom Bombadil? Didn't
>Professor Tolkien indicate that he was a Valar, of a sort. Or was that
>the Istari? Could he have been one of the Istari?
>
It is clear that he is not of the Istari.  They are listed in their
entirety in _The Unfinished Tales_.

He is also not listed amongst the Valar in _The Silmarillion_, although he
*could* have been an incarnation of Iluvatar himself.  This thesis is
supported by Goldberry's statement that he existed before anything else.
(I can't give the exact quote)

I have always assumed that he was created at the same time as the Ents.  At
the time when Yavanna wanted to make something to protect the woods from
the Dwarves.  


-- 
When subtlety fails us we must make do with cream pies.
                                                    --David Brin

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: stssram@st.unocal.COM (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Reply-To: Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com
Organization: Unocal Energy Resources Division
	<TJG01.92Dec31093404@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 09:35:56 GMT

>>>>> On Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:34:22 GMT, tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM (Terry Gardner) said:

Terry> Are you in fact convinced that the Olorin (Maia) and Gandalf were
Terry> one and the same? I'm not. True, it would be convincing in some ways,
Terry> but what about the other Istari? Why would Saruman be chosen as head
Terry> of the White Council, and not mentioned otherwise? I admit that I
Terry> go back and forth on the issue of whether Gandalf-Mithrandir was
Terry> the Olorin, but today, I don't think so.

Huh?  "Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten."  -- Gandalf, in
The Two Towers.

How could there be any doubt?  It's also explicitly stated in the index
to the published Silmarillion.  What is your evidence to the contrary,
given Christopher Tolkien's explicit comment, and Gandalf's statement
that he was once called Olorin?



--
Bob Myers                              Unocal Energy Resources Division
Internet: Bob.Myers@st.unocal.com      Exploration and Seismic Technology
Phone: [714] 693-6951                  P. O. Box 68076
                                       Anaheim, California 92817-8076
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: dago@stud.cs.uit.no (Dag-Frode Olsen)
Subject: Re: Breeding Dragons (was Re: Bombadil)
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 10:52:35 GMT

I do not think dragons reproduce, but my impression is that they 
was 'made' by The Dark One during the first age as a mocking of
the eagles, like the orcs was a mocking of the elves.

Any comments???


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ferret@synecdoche.engin.umich.edu (kenneth r lipka)
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 11:46:19 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: ferret@synecdoche.engin.umich.edu


In article <1993Jan4.015227.18610@leland.Stanford.EDU>, alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson) writes:
> It's *always* been clear that the Elves were similar to Men--Tolkien even calls
> them "Man before the Fall" in at least one place.  This pointy-eared nonsense
> arose because the brothers Hildebrandt and their ilk watched too many episodes
> of _Star Trek_ and decided that "better than human" must mean "pointy-eared."
     ^^^^^^^^^^^

	Uh, you might want to check your timeline here.

	Ken Lipka
	ferret@engin.umich.edu
From: nightsng@anarky.tch.org (Nightsong)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 17:50:26 PST
Organization: The Canned Ham, San Jose, CA (408) 971-8530

cos@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Ofer Inbar) writes:

> Paivi.Hyvarinen@hut.fi (Paivi Helena Hyvarinen) writes:
> >owned by Musiikki Fazer, (P) 1983 (whatever _that_ means...).
> 
> (P) stands for "phonorecord" and is the analogue of (C)opyright.  A "P
> in a circle" symbol, at least in US law, marks an authorized audio
> copy of a copyrighted work.
> 
> >Any more Tolkien-inspired music, anyone?
> 
> I'm not sure, but on Enya's newest album, there's a song titled
> Lothlorien.  I don't remember the name of the album, but it's the
> third one, with Caribbean Blue on it.  Lothlorien is instrumental, and
> there are no liner notes about it, so I can't tell whether it's
> Tolkien-inspired or not.  But if it is, the music does fit the
> setting.
> 
>   --  Cos (Ofer Inbar)  --  cos@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu
>   --  Program Director & Engineer  --  WBRS@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
>  All genre ethnic diversity          24 hours a day, 365 days a year
>  Free live music four times weekly   WBRS in Waltham, 100.1FM stereo
> 

It is called `Shepherd Moons' interestingly enough..The Shepherd Moon is 
the title of an H. M. Hoover book but I will not get into that...
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM (Terry J. Gardner)
Subject: Re: A question
	<lewchuk.726248604@therien>
Organization: Home Depot USA, Inc.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:22:39 GMT

In article <lewchuk.726248604@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
   klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
   >>Why was Frodo singled out in the attack in Moria?
   >Now that is a harder question. Why would first the watcher
   >in the water and then an orc single out Frodo? Ideas anyone?
   >Klaus O K

   Perhaps because the Ring could, like Sauron, command the forces of Mordor
   (and many evil creatures not allied to Sauron) just by its presence?  It
   managed to scare away the orc in Minas Morgul without Sam doing much.  I
   would assume a ring-bearer would be in danger just by wearing it, as
   Isildur was with that orc-arrow.

Perhaps, but remember that the Ring slipped off his finger, THEN he
was seen by the Orcs, and shot. Of course, I think that someone said
that the Ring slipped off his finger on its own..

--
terry@HomeDepot.COM                      (404) 433-8211x5124 or (404) 941-8304
Home Depot, USA Corporate Office, Atlanta, GA
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Death of a Maia
Date: 6 Jan 1993 17:17:31 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1434@blue.cis.pitt.edu> pjhst10+@pitt.edu (Peter   J Hill) writes:
>Gandalf does die, but is reborn.  I think that this is more a reflection
>on what the Maia are.  The idea that they are a type of spirit that is
>given a physical body holds up well here.  The body dies, but the spirit
>still exists.  That is why Gandalf was able to retain all of his knowledge.
>I would guess that they would be sent to the void to wait to see in
>they rate a new body.

But, from my reading, Sauron also died when Numenor went under.  And
he managed to come back (though, admittedly, with a less capable
physical form that was unable to look pleasant or, presumably, to
change shape).  I can't imagine that he "rated a new body," at least
not according to standards that might be set out by Eru or Mandos
(who I presume are the ones to decide such a matter, though Manwe
might get a vote as well).

So, while I agree that either Eru or a Vala explicitly sent
Gandalf back, there must be some other wat of getting back as
well.  Otherwise, how would Sauron had made it?

Actually, I have a thought that might explain this AND answer another
question of mine.  The other question is: why does Sauron die at the
end of LOTR?  He is not killed physically (unless he is trapped in
the collapse of Barad Dur, which seems a pretty mundane end to such
an important villain).  

My theory is: maybe, if you have enough power,
you can escape death by building a new body with your power.  When
Sauron's body dies in Numenor, he creates a new body.  The new body
is hideous, because his power is evil and that's the best that he
can do.  (Presumably his first body was that given to him at the
creation and, as a work of Eru, is kind of pretty.)  At the end of
LOTR, the destruction of the ring destroys Sauron's power and the
works of that power (such as the fore-mentioned Barad Dur).  Thus,
it also destroys the body made with that power.  Now lacking the
power to make another new body, Sauron becomes just a bad cloud.

Any thoughts on this?  Or is my original supposition that Sauron
"died" with the fall of Numenor out to lunch?
From: sam4628@zeus.tamu.edu (MCCLUNEY, STEVEN ALEXANDER)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: shape of Ea before end of second era ?
Date: 7 Jan 1993 10:02 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <C0H6n6.1so@sci.kun.nl>, erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier) writes...
>I reread the Ainulindale last night. When Iluvatar show's the ainur
>the vision of Ea, it is described as a sphere. This pulled a trigger !
>In the Akallabeth when Numenore is destroyed, it is stated that after
>that happened the world had become round !! Doesn't this mean Ea hadn't
>________________________________________________________________________
>Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)

I'm not positive about this, but didn't Iluvatar show a "finished product"
to the Ainur?  i.e. perhaps the vision of Ea was of post-Numenorean
times....

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Steven A. McCluney                 |"Strange women lying in ponds    |
| sam4628@zeus.tamu.edu              | distributing swords is no basis |
| I'm a grad student, so my opinions | for a system of government!"    |
|    are worthless anyway            |          Dennis, to King Arthur |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil)
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 01:25:27 GMT

In article <1iieljINNk90@gap.caltech.edu> damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.214044@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>>Is there any evidence to prove the assertion that they were
>>"human-relations," and if so, where does it appear?
>>
>	_The_Hobbit_? In the beginning when discussing their being close to
>men than dwarves or even elves (or were the latter two reversed?)
>Admittedly the_Hobbit_ isn't entirely canonical perhaps...speaking of which,
>remember the giants in the Misty Mountains?  More random creations of
>Morgoth or just an oddity of that novel?

Added complication: Gandalf muses about getting some "more-or-less
decent giant" to block up the entrances to the Goblins's caves. If
there are "decent giants", then they are probably not creations of
Morgoth's; they're probably more bombadils (i.e. inexplicables).
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Death of a Maia
From: pjhst10+@pitt.edu (Peter   J Hill)
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:51:51 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1id73rINNrrm@uwm.edu> paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:
>Gandalf also dies in LotR.  Tally up four dead Maia in LotR.  :-)
>
>----
>Paul Gunderson
>paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

Gandalf does die, but is reborn.  I think that this is more a reflection
on what the Maia are.  The idea that they are a type of spirit that is
given a physical body holds up well here.  The body dies, but the spirit
still exists.  That is why Gandalf was able to retain all of his knowledge.
I would guess that they would be sent to the void to wait to see in
they rate a new body.

pjhst10+@pitt.edu


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden)
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil
Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x
Date:  5 Jan 93 22:30:04 GMT

[the fun goes on...]
 
I just re-read the Ainulindale and Valaquenta with this question
in mind.  It is unclear to me whether the word `Valar' applies only
to the named Valar, or if they are "the Lords of the Valar" with
lesser Vala under them.  It seems to be used in both senses in
several places.  It's stated that they "drew unto them many companions,
some less, some well nigh as great as themselves" in the work of
ordering the creation of Arda.  I would conclude that the line
between the Valar and Maiar is somewhat arbitrary, and they span
a continuous range of power and attributes.
 
Regardless of this, one clear division is between the Ainur of
the Song who chose to enter into Ea, and their offspring after
they did so and took on material bodies.  Olorin would seem to
be one of the latter, speaking of his "youth in the West that is
forgotten".  Based on his character and powers and the reference
to being "Eldest and Fatherless", it seems clear (to me! :) that
Tom is one of the Ainur of the Song, albeit a lesser one, whether
we call him Vala or Maia, who was sprung straight from the thought
of Eru in the beginning.

-- 
 
samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) -- and not a mere Device.
 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: pvs9@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Praktikum Verteilte Systeme)
Subject: Re: Breeding Dragons (was Re: Bombadil)
Reply-To: pvs9@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Praktikum Verteilte Systeme)
Organization: TU Braunschweig, Informatik (Bueltenweg), Germany
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 10:54:51 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.212635@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy] writes:
>>One thing that bothered me about the creation power of Darkness:
>>it is almost explicitly said that orcs are twisted elves, and 
>>therefore can breed, inheriting that ability from the Firstborn.  
>>But what about trolls and dragons?  If Melkor lacked access to the 
>>Secret Fire they should not have been able to breed, only to be 
>>created individually by Melkor with his own essence.  But dragons 
>>most definitely did breed!
>
>What makes you say that?  Do we have any cases where a dragon is
>reported to be the offspring of another dragon?  Glaurung is said
>to be the first dragon, but not necessarily the "father of all
>dragons" (or I do not remember him being so named).
>
>I can not recall _any_ evidence that either trolls or dragons
>breed.  Orcs are said in several places to "spawn," so they
>certainly reproduce.  Trolls are noted to be on the increase
>at the beginning of the War of the Ring, so I would be willing
>to allow that they might reproduce as well.  Dragons, however,
>seem to be a dying breed (note the quote of Gandalf when he speaks
>to Frodo about the destruction of the Ring), and no evidence
>is given that any have been created since the First Age.
>
>I believe it is entirely possible that dragons were unable to
>reproduce themselves, and I certainly do not beleive that they
>"most definitely did breed!"
>
>--
>Charles F. Fitzgerald | '....Life's but a walking shadow,
>Iowa State University | a poor player, that struts, and frets
>cffitzge@iastate.edu  | his hour upon the stage,
>                      | and then is heard from no more....'
>                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.


IMHO, orcs can breed as they are perverted children of Iluvatar.  Trolls,
however, are perhaps no true living things, but animated stone figures.  (They
don't seem to have free will, as orcs do.)  This would mean that they cannot
reproduce themselves.  The increasing of trolls at the beginning of the War of
the Ring does not necessarily mean that they eproduced themselves :  they were
perhaps moulded and animated by Sauron.  Concerning dragins :  I can't remember
a word about dragons multiplying after the First Age.

May Elbereth protect you.... Joerg Rhiemeier.  


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Hobbits, again
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 17:28:26 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.220701@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:

>
>I originally asked if anyone had any idea whence hobbits came.  Most
>people who attempted an answer said that they were some "human 
>relation," however very little textural evidence was given to 
>support this supposition.  The only evidence that I remember being 
>presented to support this contention is the off-hand comment Gandalf 
>makes to the Gondorian repairing the Rammas as Gandalf and Pippin 
>proceed to Minas Tirith.


	What about the "Concerning Hobbits" part of the prologue to LOTR, 
where Tolkien writes: "It is plain indeed that in spite of their later
estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours [we presumably being Men]: far
nearer to us than Elves or even than Dwarves.  Of old they spoke the 
languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the
same things as Men did.  But what exactly our relationship is can no longer
be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that
are now lost and forgotten."

	Also, wasn't there some place in LOTR (perhaps in TT) where a kinship
between the language of the Rohirrim and that spoken in the Shire is suggested?
I seem to rember Eomer or Theoden puzzling over the fact that the Hobbits 
use a word that is also found in the language of Rohan. This would in turn 
suggest the possibility that there might be some sort of blood kinship between
the Men of Rohan and the Hobbits.  

	Of course, this may make more sense in "real world" terms than in 
"Middle-earth" terms.  The Hobbits, after all, speak an 19th century rural 
dialect of modern English, while the Rohirrim speak a language which bears a 
striking resemblance to Old English/Ango-Saxon.  It makes perfect sense for a 
philologist like Tolkien, knowing that Old English and modern English are 
related, to suggest that the Hobbit-speech and Rohan-speech are similarly 
related.  

	
	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil)
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 05:46:12 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.214044@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy] writes:
>>If halflings were human-relations snuck in by Eru later on ....
>
>Is there any evidence to prove the assertion that they were
>"human-relations," and if so, where does it appear?

Among other things: In LOTR book 5, Gandalf (when speaking to guards
from Minas Tirith) refers to Pippin as "a man". Pippin wakes up and
indignantly says somethink like "A man? Indeed not! I'm a hobbit!"

My take on this is that hobbits are, for all metaphysical purposes,
just short humans with hairy feet. Gandalf thus refered to Pippin as a
man, meaning "not a dwarf, elf, midget orc, larval dragon..."

Remember, "man" encompasses everything from the Numenoreans to the
Dunlendings to the Druedain ("Wild Men") to the Haradim to the men of
Umbar... Given that great amount of variation, Hobbits aren't that far
out of the norm.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: A question
Date: 5 Jan 93 13:08:10 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:


>On a local news group we got into a long discussion about who is able to 
>"see" a ringwraith.  It states in TLOTR that Tom Bombadil sees Frodo when
>he puts the ring on.  It is also clear the ringwraths can see Frodo during
>the attack under weathertop.  The question is, who else can see him when he
>wears the ring.  I believe that Gandalf could (since he is wearing one of
>the three).  Based on this I deduced that G. could see Bilbo when he sneaks
>up on the dwarves after escaping with the ring from the Orcs.  (He even
>says something like "there is more to this thief than is apparent".)

>Who else could see him?  Does the fact that G. is of the Maiar make a
>difference?  

Yes, IMHO

>i.e. could Saruman have seen him?  Could the Balrog have seen
>him?

Yes and yes.

In book II chapter 1, Gandalf explains that an elf who has seen
the two trees lives both in the seen and the unseen world, and
has power over both worlds. This would apply even more to a Maia,
I should think. BTW, it would also mean that Glorfindel could see
both Frodo and the ringwraiths.

>Why was Frodo singled out in the attack in Moria?

Now that is a harder question. Why would first the watcher
in the water and then an orc single out Frodo? Ideas anyone?

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Gandalf as Olorin (was Re: Bombadil etc.)
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:05:53 GMT

In article <1ihvp3INN9j6@fnnews.fnal.gov> REXLEX writes:
>   Several years ago I took the unenviable task of make a geneology of all the
>characters of JRRT's world.  I show that there was a classification of creation
>called the Maiar... Ungoliant *maybe* classified under this heading.

Couldn't be. Ungoliant, alone, almost destroyed Melkor; Melkor had to
call on the Balrogs to help drive her off. No Maia could be this
powerful. If she's in any category, she's a "bombadil", i.e. powerful,
unexplained thing that's been around forever and doesn't answer direct
questions.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
From: paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Death of a Maia
Date: 5 Jan 1993 23:54:35 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <1i7ekbINNddf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>
>In TLOTR there are three Maiar that "die".  Sauron, Saruman and the Balrog.
>In the first two cases there is a cloud that appears and then disperses.
>When Saruman is killed on the doorstep of Bag End the cloud "looks" to the
>west and is dispersed by a suddenly appearing wind.

Gandalf also dies in LotR.  Tally up four dead Maia in LotR.  :-)

----
Paul Gunderson
paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell)
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Organization: NCR Corp., Columbia SC
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 18:16:26 GMT

>` [...] And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath
>not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.
>For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising
>of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
>
>This is my basis for belief that illuvatar has precognition of all events
>in Ea; although it may seem a tenuous basis.

This is in opposition to Gandalf's statements when he responded to Bilbo's or
Frodo's observation about his chances of finding the One Ring. Gandalf responded
with a phrase like "if by chance you call it". I interpret Gandalf's statement 
to mean that Eru arranged for Bilbo to find the ring, but what was done with the
ring thereafter was done by the free wills of those in the story.

Look back to see how each of the good guys had a chance to take the ring: 
Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Galadriel, Boromir, Faramir, etc. Each was presented
by Eru with a chance (a test perhaps), but their own freewill governed their 
decision.

Feadin

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis )
Subject: languages, Tolkien CD?
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 05:29:24 GMT

With the recent rush of titles appearing on CD format, it would seem that 
Tolkien must either be out there or be on his way. I haven't seen anything 
yet; any sightings? Developers?

This might be more appropriately posted to the Tolkien language mail- list, 
but have there been any concerted attempts to expand upon Tolkien's Middle-
Earth languages?  
---------

Eric Forbis      forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu