HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cvetp034@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu (Mike Cancellier)
Subject: Re: light aircraft in strike role
Organization: Cal Poly Pomona Geography Dept.
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:43:51 GMT


From cvetp034@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu (Mike Cancellier)

In article <Bt4oCC.1py@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, Arthur Leung <Arthur.Leung@eng.sun.com> writes:
> 
> From Arthur Leung <Arthur.Leung@eng.sun.com>
> 
> swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr)) writes:
     
     I'd like to comment on your article if I may.  There is a very relevent
article in AIRPOWER JOURNAL, published by the U.S. Air Force, about the use of
light aircraft in COIN ops.  I don't remember what issue it was in but it was
very interesting.  The ideal light COIN aircraft seems to be the Cessna U-27A
(a militarised Caravan I).  It comes with FLIR, wing hardpoints, large cargo
door, high flotation landing gear, etc.  It can be used for a variety of roles
including FAC, transport, cargo, recon (comes with a nice recon pod), patrol,
crop dusting, escort, and gunship (with a GECAL 50 .50 cal. minigun in the side
cargo door).  If I were a small country's air force shopping for planes to buy
to combat guerrillas, I'd buy a few dozen U-27s outfitted for various roles;
you don't need anything else!
     Also, the Ayres company makes a COIN aircraft based on a crop duster and
it's called the Vigilante.  There's also the Sadler A-22 COIN plane for light
attack; it has folding wings to fit in a trailer.  Then there's the Rutan Ares
jet CAS plane.  The U.S. Army also thought about using Grumman Ag-Cat biplanes
for COIN roles during Vietnam except biplanes didn't fit their image.  Piper
also proposed a COIN plane based on one of their civillian twins.
     However, the RAAF already has two nice planes for COIN i.e. the Mission
Master and the Pilatus Turbo Porter.  The Nomad can handle most of the roles of
COIN as can the-Porter.  Since the Turbo-Porters are being retired why nowhy
not refurbish them mechanically, give them some new equipment, and put on a
side firing cannon ala AU-23 (the USAF Turbo-Porter version).  Then the planes
could be put in storage until needed.  You already have parts and trained
people to use them.


Daemon Hobbs, Cadet, AFROTC
CVETP034@CSUPomona.edu
Cal Poly Pomona Geography Dept.

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: tjz20735@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Zych)
Subject: Re: is the A-10 going bye-bye?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:32:38 GMT


From tjz20735@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Zych)




>Rick Lafford (lafford@serum.clpd.Kodak.COM) wrote:
><stuff deleted>
>: The GAU-8 carried by the A-10
>: is considered fairly weak by current armor standards ie.I don't believe
>: it would stop an M1A1 or T-80.

Not from the front, but what about the top or rear aspects?  Even modern MBTs
have fairly thin armor on the engine deck and turret roof...

Tom Zych   tjz20735@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Lee Mellinger <leem@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: 20mm ammo for Phalanx (was Tracers) 
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:38:19 GMT


From Lee Mellinger <leem@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov>

> :From billb@owlnet.rice.edu (William Stenson Blackwell)
> :As far
> :as teflon-coated bullets go, the reason that they are effective is that the
> :teflon reduces friction wherever the bullet goes, not just inside the gun.

Not according to the designers of the KTW bullet.  The teflon was
designed to prevent damage to the bore of the gun.  A secondary effect
was to "grab" glass or metal surfaces when striking at oblique angles
instead of glancing off.

Lee
 
"Nothing blasts forever" -- Keats on ammo.
 
|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
| 


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium -- Hydrogen Bombs
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 12:12:02 GMT


From henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)

>From black@akebono.math.ncsu.edu (Kelly Black)
>Once the jacket and core are compressed to critical
>levels how do you make sure that the fission process
>is initiated.  Surely they don't just squeeze the thing
>and hope that the good Lord smiles...

Indeed not.  In principle, spontaneous fission within the uranium or
plutonium will start the reaction.  In practice, this is undependable
because its timing is unpredictable.  You want the reaction to start
vigorously at just the right time.

The method used is the obvious:  hit the core with a burst of neutrons
to get things started.  The earliest bombs did this using an initiator
assembly in the center, typically designed to place polonium and
beryllium in sudden intimate contact when the implosion arrived.  The
modern ones use a neutron-generator tube outside the whole implosion
assembly, and fire it with a high-voltage pulse at an appropriate time.
(Neutron-generator tubes are commercial products, used for some kinds
of radiography, although one would guess that the weapon-initiator tubes
may be of somewhat different design.  The usual principle is to use a
high voltage to accelerate deuterium ions into a target containing
tritium, or vice-versa.)
-- 
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Breaking in green submariners
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:35:22 GMT


From viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)

>From lesher@coral.bucknell.edu (Lesher Timothy Darwin)

"Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil> writes:
>>
>>#Many new Navy guys (surface and subs) have been sent for: 20 feet of
>>#chow line, relative bearing grease, cable pullers, a bucket of steam,
>>#to look for sea bats, etc.

	Just to insert some more, I fell for the sea bat.  What did *you*
fall for if you've military experience?

>>We always sent the guy for a hundred feet of Jersey shore line. A
>>bucket of prop wash was also a vital necessity when leaving foreign
>>harbors as well.

>In an Army transportation unit, I've heard of sending poor saps out looking
>for a "trailer stretcher" as well...  keep them coming...

	A tee-are-double-E with an ay-pee-E extention.  This is an TREE
with an APE extention.  Let's see, the cannon report was a good one, and
so was twenty feet of flight line, a box of grid squares, the ship's
ensign (the US flag for you landlubbers), left-handed pipe wrench, metric
screwdrivers, the Captain's Mast is missing so you help search this deck
(that's non-judicial punishment for you landlubbers), a wildcat broke loose
and we have to find it (wildcats are the machines used to release and draw
in the chains attached to the anchors).

	That's all I can think of.  I did have a guy send three of us
new guys out to find the CPO's first name under the excuse of needing
it for a birthday cake decoration.  We reported back, saying it was
Clarence or some such.  We were told to ask him if it was true, since it
was well known that the Chief was not to be called Clarence if he
preferred to be called Pig or something like that.  So we asked.  The
result was a thundering beller, "My first name is not Clarence!  You
three will not leave until you can provide my first name!"  Much
guessing followed, consisting mainly of nicknames.  Finally, I got
a bit exasperated and said, "So far as I'm concerned, your first name
is Chief!"  We were dismissed, as the correct first name was found.  I
am convinced we were set up on this.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
  

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: schuck@sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: Kevlar Body Armour -- Plate Material?
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:27:27 GMT


From schuck@sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)

ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:

>So what's usually done is to insert steel plates in pockets
>in the kill zones protected by the vest. These plates prevent projectiles
>from sneaking through the gaps between the fibers and force them to actually
>tear the radially laid kevlar strands in addition to penetrating the 
>steel plate itself. With this design, protection can be had from rifle
>bullets up to the 7.62 NATO energy level. The vest, now steel armor,
>becomes heavy and difficult to manevour in however.

Aren't ceramic plates more common?

Ceramic is just as hard or harder than steel, at least when it
comes to stopping bullets , but has the advantage of being much lighter.





Newsgroups: sci.military
From: jrk@tcs.com (John Koper)
Subject: What is NTDS?
Followup-To: sci.military
Keywords: NTDS
Organization: Teknekron Communications Systems Inc.
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:23:04 GMT


From jrk@tcs.com (John Koper)

Can anyone give me a brief description of NTDS?  I belive
it's some kind of protocol used in the military and I think
it stands for "Navy Tactical Data System"?  I tried archie
but had no luck finding anything.

thanks in advance,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Koper				| jrk@tcs.com
Software Engineer			| 2121 Allston Way, Berkeley, CA 94704
Teknekron Communications Systems, Inc.	| (510) 649-3592

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: anasaz!anasaz.briand@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Brian Douglass)
Subject: Re: Origin of Sabot
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:39:58 GMT


From anasaz!anasaz.briand@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Brian Douglass)

In article <Btsz2z.2uG@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> jackson@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Dwight Jackson) writes:
>
>It predates both wars, going back to the Industrial Revolution times.  The
>workers in a textile mill struck, throwing their wooded shoes into their
>looms, destroying them.  They were protesting the introduction of the first
>mechanized looms - Jaquard Looms I think. (spelling?)  I seem to recall that
>this was in Belgium, not France.
>
>Source is a computing history book explaining the beginnings of mechinization.

According to the Enclyopaedia Brittanica, it is from a rail strike in 1876
in southern Belgium.  Sabots are both the wooden shoes that workers wore,
primarily to protect their toes and make digging easier, and the shoes that
held rail ties.  During the strike, workers would tear up the rails and
remove the sabots.  There was no reference to tossing any kind of sabot
into looms.  Perhaps this came later, I do not know, but the loom reference
was also promulgated in Star Trek VI.

-- 
"... For I have sworn upon the alter of god, eternal hostility against
every form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
Brian Douglass		briand@anasazi.com 	602-870-3330 X657


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ganglia.megatek!rstewart@uunet.UU.NET (Rich Stewart)
Subject: Re: Autofocus and the Stealth
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:53:21 GMT


From ganglia.megatek!rstewart@uunet.UU.NET (Rich Stewart)

>
>> Given the Stealth's "stealth", how come a commercial autofocus system
>> can "lock-on" for a sharp picture?
>
>Additionally, most auto-focus systems use ultrasound, not radar. Any
>detection system close enough to find the F117 with ultrasound is
>going to hear the engines anyway.
>

Auto focus can be generated from the maximum contrast of an image while
turning the lense. So  is you have line of sight of the object, you
can gauge it's distance. So with a ccd grid, some good optics, 
good image processing hardware and software, you could plug a F117.
Of course this would not work well at night.

-Rich


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: HODGSONT@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jake Hodgson)
Subject: Kevlar wet/dry effectivness ref. request
Organization: Queens University at Kingston
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:19:11 GMT


From HODGSONT@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jake Hodgson)


 
    Hello,
 
    I need some information in a hurry for a friend of mine...
 
 
    Specifically, I am looking for a hard reference (no fof or 'i heard's'
   Please) which outlines the difference in the effectivness of Kevlar
   (or other aramid) ballistic vests when the vest is dry or wet.
 
   I 'have heard'  that there is a big difference between the wet and dry
   performance, but I need a good reference (or better SEVERAL references)
   to back up this memory.
 
   Please include sufficient information that I can send for the paper if
   I need to.   I'd be happy just for a quick summary of findings and
   a basic reference (Author, title, where publishied, when published.)
 
   This is going to be used to point out the situation (assuming I have
   remembered it correctly) to decission making types so the more 'lofty'
   the source and the more complete the info the better. (not that I have
   any such snobbery myself, but it's a matter of the right tools forthe
   job-- ANY hard info would be greatly apreciated!)
 
   As always, unless you think there is sufficient interest please email me
   directly.   If I get enough info to make it worthwhile, I'll post a
   summary to both rec.guns and sci.military.
 
   Thanks in advance
                                               Warm Hearth!
                                                     Jake
 
Jake Hodgson____________________________________________________________
HODGSONT@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA               |  All skill is in vain when
Disclaimer: It must be my doing because |  an angel pisses in the
            THIS bunch won't take       |  touchhole of your musket.
            responsibility for ANYTHING |  -old German proverb


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: brian@coombs.anu.edu.au (Brian)
Subject: Re: light aircraft in strike role
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:44:03 GMT


From brian@coombs.anu.edu.au (Brian)

swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr)) writes:


>From swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr))

>I have always been intrigued by the following question:

>In low intensity conflicts, have light aircraft been used in a close
>air support role? I believe there was some use during the Rhodesian
>bush war, but these were conventional general aviation aircraft (mostly
>twins?). What about the conversion of common STOL aircraft like
>cropdusters (Pawnees, Fletchers etc) to a light strike role?

	During the Biafran Civil War in the late 1960's Count Carl Gustav 
von Rosen, a Swedish nobleman, used five MFI-9 light aircraft in the
strike role very successfully.  The aircraft were SAAB light trainers
to which two hardpoints carrying either rocket pods or small bombs were added.  
In their operations they accounted for the destruction of 10 Nigarian Air Force
aircraft by destrying them on the ground.  They proved to be apparently
very elusive and difficult targets to hit from the ground and nearly 
impossible to destroy from the air.   There eventual fate was that after 7
 months of fighting, 2 were shot down by ground fire, two destroyed on the 
ground the fifth disappeared during the destruction of Biafra. 

>The reason I ask this question is because the Australian armed forces
>believe that in the next 20 years or so they will face small numbers
>of insurgents in the far north of the country (Northern TErritory).
>It is believed they will operate in units of platoon/squad size, armed
>with small arms, explosives and maybe the occasional shoulder fired
>SAM. Their role would be to blow up the occasional microwave tower,
>phone line etc and generally cause the Australian military to consume
>a huge amount of resources in surveillance and elimination (the amount
>of land there is huge).


	Well, apart from the fact that main contendor for the role of the
"enemy" in this scenario have recently started to move much, much closer to
us in the new world order climatre that is prevailing, your basically right.
This is one reason why the RAAF presently has a requirement for a light ground
attack aircraft (the most likely contender is the Hawk 100/200 combination
as it would also fulfill the role of advanced trainer to replace the Aeromacchis)


--
Brian Ross____________________________________________________________________
"I express many absurd opinions.  But I am not the first man to do it; 
	American freedom consists largely of talking nonsense."
____________________________________ E.W.Howe, Preaching from the Audience____

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Subject: Re: Smoothbore Weapons (was Re: DU)
Organization: The Instrumentality
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:23:59 GMT


From cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)

In article <BtC5CB.6rL@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:

>In article <Bt4oI0.1v9@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> billb@owlnet.rice.edu (William Stenson Blackwell) writes:

>>Along this thread, there is also an APDS round made for shotguns, ala the
>>movie Alien Nation.  They are very good at penetrating things that don't
>>have hardened armor. 

>Also available to the general public (at least it was three years 
>ago when I kept up with such things) was something called the Sabot
>Slug. You fired this out of a 12 gauge shotgun (you could even get 
>rifled barrels with rifle sights for some shotguns). The projectile 
>was a .50 caliber dumbell shaped, hard lead slug encased in a dis-
>carding sabot. The warned you not to fire it out of a choked barrel

This is a common shotgun slug design, and is being made today for hunting.
(I believe Winchester has bought the rights.) I once saw armor piercing
slugs of this type at a gun show--they were made under the Smith & Wesson
label, and were marked "for police use ony". The box carried a description
that stated that these rounds were good for shooting through engine blocks
and barricades.  These are probably not legal for private posession.




-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Origin of Sabot
Followup-To: sci.military
Summary: We have a problem here
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:10:25 GMT


From jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)


In article <Btsz2z.2uG@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> jackson@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Dwight Jackson) writes:

>From Dwight Jackson <jackson@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>


>It predates both wars, going back to the Industrial Revolution times.  The
>workers in a textile mill struck, throwing their wooded shoes into their
>looms, destroying them.  They were protesting the introduction of the first
>mechanized looms - Jaquard Looms I think. (spelling?)  I seem to recall that
>this was in Belgium, not France.

>Source is a computing history book explaining the beginnings of mechinization.

As I said I would I did consult the massive 24-odd volume Greater Oxford
Dictionary, but it didn't give a derivation! This is probably because I
was not looking in the right spot or something. It did however give several
sources for it's use. The earliest was the the "Church Times" on November
11 1910 which was refering to striking French railway workers. A strange
source for such a word! Still, does anyone know of a definitive referrence
to all English words that I can consult?


Joseph Askew
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Mary Shafer <shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov>
Subject: Aircraft and space stuff available
Organization: NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 12:03:52 GMT


From Mary Shafer <shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov>


From Mary Shafer <shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov>

I've recently moved offices and discovered that I've accumulated quite
a lot of PR material, mostly about military aircraft and the Space
Shuttle.  I was about to toss it all when it occured to me that others
might want this.  I have lithos, photos, press kits, etc.  I'm not
going to sort it by aircraft type or anything, but I will sort it into
air or space.  

It's yours for the cost of the UPS.

Please respond via e-mail.

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "There's no kill like a guns kill." LCDR "Hoser" Satrapa, gunnery instructor
                       "A kill is a kill."  Anonymous


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Phonetic alphabet corrected
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:31:05 GMT


From fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu

In article <BtnHJ8.1xp@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com!mcfar@leadsv (Lincoln McFarland) writes:
>>We were still somewhat insulted.  You'll never find an `Easy' company in the
>>Marine Corps, and i can't imagine anyone volountarily calling themselves that.
> 
> I don't think he was trying to slight you.  There is a book out now, the exact
> title escapes me, about an E company in the 82 airborne and their "adventures"
> on the road from Normandy to Berlin.  The title is something like "on the
> road with easy company".  The tone is one of pride in being one of the best
> of the best.
> 
> Also, Sgt. Rock of comic book fame, was in "Easy" company.

After getting lots of personal mail from people who had served in an Easy
company or who knew of one that performed under fire, i hope the moderator will
let me apologise here for slighting the Army vets who served in an Easy
company. (The replies were universally Army, BTW).  i should have checked my
wording more carefully and did not mean to make further insults or imply
anything about the men who served in an Easy company.  Like any service, the
Army is mostly good people.

(i'll still call you doggies though) :P

James Zuelow
FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Photo -- clearing mines in Bosnia
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:38:32 GMT


From ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)

In article <BtGJ0t.o5@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:
>
>  "United Nations forces clearing mines last week in the town
>   of Banja Luka, Bosnia."
>
>It shows seven mines resting on a street, arrayed in a circle about
>15 feet in diameter. A soldier has picked up one mine. Another
>soldier is bending doen to pick up another. The mines have 
>convenient handles for carrying.
>
>As far as I can tell, mines are not placed with signs next to
>them that say, for example, "This is a mine."

In fact they often are placed with signs warning of their presence.
Sometimes the signs, without the mines, are sufficient to serve the
purposes of a minefield. The primary purpose of mines is area denial,
not the destruction of the enemy. Just keeping the enemy from going
in a direction you don't want him to go is sufficient. In Hungary
1956, dinner plates where laid face down on streets. Tank crews would
stop because they thought they were mines. When they got out to check,
they were shot and their tanks burned.

Gary


Newsgroups: sci.military