HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.ucar.EDU (Robert Hartman)
Subject: Re: recent discussion of rape
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Date: 17 Nov 92 03:53:09 GMT

In article <1dpiqcINNoqh@agate.berkeley.edu> arosen@oregon.uoregon.edu (Ava Rosenblum) writes:
>
> I would like to expand the discussion of rape to include emotional
>rape. These are situations in which one person is lied to so that she
>WANTS to go to bed with the man. Such situations often occur with
>married men who persuade themselves and the victim that he is falling
>in love and that he will likely leave his wife for the victim.
>Ofcourse this can happen in reverse gender situations, but it is more
>likely to occur with men as the perpetrators.
>
>Any time a lie is utilized to cause someone who would otherwise say
>'no' to say 'yes', I believe this constitutes emotional rape, for it
>often emanates from a sexist world view that divorces sex from the
>energy of the heart.

Hmmm.  I don't think that every form of sexual betrayal is rape.  I
think that this is rather a seduction than a rape.  It's more akin
to fraud than to robbery.  But note that fraud is also a crime where
money is concerned.

-r

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Xref: sparky soc.feminism:2588 news.answers:4124
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.EDU (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Origin of "womyn" spelling
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: Albert Lunde <Albert-Lunde@nwu.EDU>
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:55:25 GMT
Followup-To: soc.feminism

In article <1dpm7lINNpp7@agate.berkeley.edu>
 renzland@gov.on.ca (Peter Renzland) writes:
>Is this spelling simply a modern neologism or is it based on something
>old?  I've heard suggestions that it may be an old form, but haven't
>been able to confirm this.

I think "womyn" and "wimmin" are recently coined spellings with no
effort made to preserve historical usage.

Interestingly, flipping through my library in some fairly radical
writings I couldn't quickly find an actual example of either spelling
in print. I looked for example, in Mary Daly's "Gyn/Ecology", Judy
Grahn's "Another Mother Tongue", "Our Right To Love" and an anthology
from The Ladder.

There may be an editorial bias to use standard spellings, (though
surely not by Mary Daly).  I suspect either word may be more common in
informal usage in certian circles than in books and periodicals.  The
idea is linked, politically, to lesbian seperatism and to the kind of
renaming that Mary Daly made popular. (But it doen't look like this
can be laid at her door.)

Women's music and the Michian fest in particular, are one arena I'd
suspect for progating these usages -- but I lack solid data.

However, I can find *one* example: "MadWimmin Books" the bookstore in
the "Dykes to Watch Out For" comics.

Can anyone else point to an example in non-fiction in print?

--
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................

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Xref: sparky soc.feminism:2592 news.answers:4129
From: gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman)
Subject: Re: News: Boy Wants to Wear Dress To School
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Lehigh University
Date: 17 Nov 92 04:02:26 GMT

In article <9211031605.AA14982@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov>, Celeste%express@freedom.m
sfc.nasa.GOV writes:
>The author of the article at the Atlanta Constitution was contacted. They
>said that the article may be replicated provied the "by line" (author's
>name) is left intact. With that we may replicate and distribute copies
>of the article.
>
>Article from
>The Atlanta Journal & The Atlanta Constitution
>of Saturday, Oct. 10, 1992 page B1
>
>Teenage missing school because he's not allowed to dress as a girl
>
>By Pat Burson
>STAFF WRITER
>
>A Tri-Cities High School senior is fighting for his choice "to
>be a girl" has remained away from school for nearly three weeks
>because of an impasse with Fulton County school officials, who
>have ruled that he cannot come to school anymore dressed as a
>girl.
>
>Principal Hershel Robinson recently informed Nicholas Ricks, 17,
>who has been cross-dressing since last spring and considers
>himself a pre-operative transsexual, that he "would have to dress
>appropriately until the medical and legal documentation came in to
>state he was a girl."
>
>Dr. Hershel Robinson said provisions have been made for Nicholas
>to use restrooms in the administrative suite and to use the
>coaches' office to change if he takes physical education. However,
>the principal said, the student will be allowed to dress as a
>female only if he has the medical and legal documentation.
>
>Meanwhile, Nicholas's mother, Kathleen Baber, is irate with Dr.
>Robinson and other school officials for not responding to her
>pleas for help last spring, when she first discovered her son was
>dressing as a girl at school.
>
>She is still distraught. "It's like watching your son die, and
>nobody will help you," she said, crying.

Please keep us posted on this.  I find it interesting that a boy
cannot dress as a girl, but, let's face, girls are dressing like boys.
Girls now wear pants, jeans, large sweatshirts, t-shirts, etc. to
school.  These were traditional boys wear.

Methinks, why are the school officials taking issue now?  Why not when
the boy first started it?  Is it possible they are blowing this out of
proportion by making an issue of it?

--

------------------------
|   Gail A. Fullman    |
|   Manager - ADMO     |
|   Ext. 83113         |
------------------------

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From: wkl1@ra.msstate.EDU (Wing-Keong Loke the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Subject: Re: camille paglia
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:04:18 GMT

In article <1ebqqnINNpb5@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!idacrd!desj@ncar.UCAR.EDU (David desJardins) writes:
>Camille Paglia is an anti-feminist who calls herself various other
>Her moral philosophy seems to be based on a notion of natural law.  From
>the facts that men dominate and rape women in pre-civilized societies
>(one can argue about whether this is a fact, but she takes it as one),
>she concludes that rape and domination are natural aspects of the
>relationship between men and women.  Of course even she does not
>conclude from this that they are good things.  But she does conclude
>that because they are natural, it is unreasonable to expect them to be
>eliminated, and anyone who behaves as if they do not exist is behaving
>irrationally and deserves whatever they get.

	Her theory is easily shot down: don't
people commit murder in prehistoric times as a matter of
natural law?
--wkl--


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From: quilty@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Humberto Humbertoldi)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Date: 18 Nov 1992 05:16:54 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <1ec0nbINNqoj@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman) writes:
.....[stuff deleted].......

......[more stuff about "playing dead" to survive bear mauling deleted].....
>
>Depending on a woman's history, she may lapse into a mode of playing
>dead because she's had a previous bad experience.  Even if I mean her
>no harm at the time, if she's in the middle of reliving a previous
>trauma, she's traumatized right then, and therefore in no position to give
>or withhold consent.  And so, if I then take her lack of vigorous protest
>as tacit assent, I may well have crossed the line without knowing it.
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not only without knowing it, but without it being "knowable by a
reasonable person" as the legalistic phrase about legal responsibility
in a wide variety of situations goes! It just becomes absurd to talk
about rape (or any other crime or injustice) taking place without it
being possible for a reasonable person to know their actions
constitute such.  It reminds me of a move back to a kind of
"Caininite" theology, in which guilt is a property of what on IS, not
of what one DOES.
	I don't mean to make light of people's past traumas, but
neither do I think that a current "perpetrator" can be held
responsible for them -- nor even for assuming they exist.  What if
someone I know had a very painful experience, of which they're
reminded every time they see a certain color of green? Do I victimize
them if I wear this color unknowingly? I don't think so.  Now, on the
other hand, what if I say to someone "Let's Fuck!" -- not knowing that
they were raped in the past following such a remark.  To say that
because of their previous trauma they were unable to say "No, thank
you." -- and that therefore it is rape if anything sexual follows
seems just like the green example.  I should be held accountable for
my actions based on their own contents, not based on what people are
reminded of by them.

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From: mec6@midway.uchicago.EDU (rini)
Subject: Re: Camille Paglia is GOD! was Re: camille paglia
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.EDU
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:30:24 GMT

farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
Jason R. Pascucci <jasonp@PRIMERD.Prime.COM> writes:

>>I, personally, loathe rape in any of it's forms, and it's on of the
>>only things left I feel strongly enough to kill for. There are other
>>ways to obtain a 'wild, infectious delirium', none of which involve
>>a breach of consent.

>Exactly.  And yet you seem to think that it isn't rape if a woman is
>"stupid" enough to get drunk and can't defend herself.  Maybe she
>should wear a tag saying, "I don't consent to any sex."  Would that
>suffice if she were too drunk to say yes or no?

I haven't read Paglia's books, so maybe someone out there can help me
understand something.

From what I've gathered, she believes that an drunkenly, unconscious
date cannot be raped. Now my question is: why?

Is it because sie is unconconsious and thus cannot say "no" and/or
fight the sexual advances?  In that case, is it okay to have sex with
your date if sie is knocked unconscious by, oh, a meteor...?  Or,
maybe more likely, a car accident or an epileptic fit?

Or is it because sie was stupid enough to get too drunk and thus is
legitimately a victim?  In this case, does Paglia also argue that it
is okay to take drunk's wallets? ("Honest -- sie didn't say I
*couldn't* have it!  And if sie didn't want me to have it... why'd sie
get so drunk?")

From the little I've heard, I don't understand wherein Paglia's
argument lies.

rini


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From: gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman)
Subject: Re: News: Boy Wants to Wear Dress To School
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 17 Nov 92 06:16:01 GMT

In article <9211031605.AA14982@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov>, Celeste%express@freedom.m
sfc.nasa.GOV writes:
>Article from
>The Atlanta Journal & The Atlanta Constitution
>of Saturday, Oct. 10, 1992 page B1
>
>Teenage missing school because he's not allowed to dress as a girl
>
>By Pat Burson

Please keep us posted on this.  I find it interesting that a boy
cannot dress as a girl, but, let's face, girls are dressing like boys.
Girls now wear pants, jeans, large sweatshirts, t-shirts, etc. to
school.  These were traditional boys wear.

Methinks, why are the school officials taking issue now?  Why not when
the boy first started it?  Is it possible they are blowing this out of
proportion by making an issue of it?

--

------------------------
|   Gail A. Fullman    |
|   Manager - ADMO     |
|   Ext. 83113         |
------------------------
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From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf), DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, US
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: camille all over
Date: 17 Nov 1992 19:01:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: anableps.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@anableps.berkeley.edu

>again. Camille's comments about how women seem to want to break
>free of these relationships, "No more double standard", to take
>risks, and yet don't want to take the consequences. Sorry, Sister,
>it doesn't work like that.

This is one of the things I dislike about Paglia.  She seems to be
saying that if a woman takes the risk of necking with a man in a
parked car in a remote road, for example, she should be prepared to be
raped.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Hm, I really think that lots of arguments like this and recent
others could be easily cleared up by reading:

	Sex, Art & American Culture by Camille Paglia

(I reviewed it recently, and may repost it)

But I would like to address the point raised above.  Paglia makes
a distinction between "date rape" and "real rape"  Of course she
condemns "real rape" unconditionally.  As far as the date rape
scenario detailed above, Paglia would certainly not say
"be prepared to be raped"  She was very clear that it is her wish
that women have realistic attitudes to the risks they take,
understand male sexuality so they can better protect themselves,
take personal responsibility for their own sexuality
(which means understanding the meaning of body language, mixed
signals, provacative dress) and not assume that sexuality is
something that can easily be controlled by chirpy guidlines
issued by college administrators.  Come on now! she never
abandonded common sense.

Steve Seidman

seid@ee.cornell.edu


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From: ohegarty@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: Name changing
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:40:44 GMT

I am just furious after recieving my alumni newletter in the mail last
night and I would like to know if this happens to others.

My husband and I graduated from the same university and when we got married
(2 years ago), we obviously started receiving 2 copies of all the alumni
mail.  We decided to tell them we got married so we would only receive  1
copy.  After doing this I started receiving everything addressed to Mrs.
Parke (his last name).  I had never told them to change my name - they just
automatically did that.  The first time this happened I phoned the alumni
office and they changed it.  However, my Faculty alumni newsletter did not.
 After asking them 2 times now, they still have not changed it (although
now it has been changed to Ms. Parke).  It infuriates me to think in the
1990's a university would still assume that a woman is automatically
changing her name when she gets married!  The Canadian government doesn't
even do that any more (and hasn't for a while).  Aren't universities
supposed to be progressive institutions?

It's bad enought socially when people assume you've changed your name, but
when institutions do I feel frustrated and saddened...

Anybody else had this kind of experience?

------------
"Life By the Yard is Hard, Life By the Inch is a Cinch,
 so Easy Does It, One Day at A Time"

Orla Hegarty, Graduate Student, Department of Management Sciences,
University of Waterloo, 885-1211 x3675 (ohegarty@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca)




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From: nissim@mary.fordham.EDU ("Leonard J. Nissim")
Subject: Re: Camille Paglia is GOD! was Re: camille paglia
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Fordham University
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:47:34 GMT

In article <Bxnw1G.39w@news.cso.uiuc.edu>,
levine@symcom.math.uiuc.EDU (Lenore Levine) writes...
[intermediate post and some of L. Levine's deleted]
>
>What about her [Paglia's] comments about mathematics?
>Saying that the historical
>almost complete absence of women from research mathematics is not
>likely to (or shouldn't) change. Saying that mathematics represents a
>"masculine" way of thinking.
>
>Most research mathematicians would very strongly disagree with her!
>
>Lenore Levine
>
>P.S. I would very much like to see Camille Paglia explain why
>the derivative of x^2 is 2x. Or Timothy Leary write a program
>in Pascal...
>
>Then I'd take those techno-"visionaries" much more seriously.
>

The acquisition of a Ph.D. in mathematics may be taken as serious interest
in becoming a research mathematician, although not all go on to do so.
The American Mathematical Society has been keeping data on American citizens
who do get a Ph.D. in math *by gender* since the 1973-74 academic year.

The trend of this data supports L. Levine; it is taken from the November 1992
issue of "Notices of the American Mathematical Society":

Academic Year    Total new PhD's     Women     Women as % of total
-------------    ---------------     -----     -------------------
1973-74             677                59          9%
1974-75             741                83         11%
1975-76             722                86         12%
1976-77             689                87         13%
1977-78             634                89         14%
1978-79             596                93         16%
1979-80             578                87         15%
1980-81             567               102         18%
1981-82             519                88         17%
1982-83             455                89         20%
1983-84             433                87         20%
1984-85             396                81         20%
1985-86             386                82         21%
1986-87             362                73         20%
1987-88             363                76         21%
1988-89             411                98         24%
1989-90             401                89         22%
1990-91             461               112         24%
1991-92             430               103         24%

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leonard J. Nissim  (nissim@mary.fordham.edu)
Disclaimer:  "I speak only for myself."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: fod@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Frank O'Donnell)
Subject: Snapple and abortion issue
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: 17 Nov 92 04:04:57 GMT

Some days or weeks ago in another newsgroup, someone
posted a note which stated that pro-choice groups have
been boycotting Snapple because the owners were apparently
active donors to anti-abortion groups.

Does anyone have any corroboration or more information
on this?  My (previously Snapple-loving) friends were
very disturbed to hear this, but would like more
substantiation.  I understand that Snapple has had a
leveraged buyout this year anyway, and so would equally
wonder what if any twist this would put on boycotts.

thanks,

Frank
frank@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov

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From: uunet!idacrd!desj@ncar.UCAR.EDU (David desJardins)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: camille paglia
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:13:43 GMT
Organization: IDA Center for Communications Research, Princeton
NNTP-Posting-Host: anableps.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@anableps.berkeley.edu

Camille Paglia is an anti-feminist who calls herself various other
things.  It's easy to understand why feminists are angered by her.  It's
mostly not just because of the substance of her ideas, but because she
actually seems to hate and despise women who stand up for equality.  For
example, she frequently writes of her sense of just retribution when a
woman acts in a way which she does not approve of, and is raped and/or
murdered in return.

Her moral philosophy seems to be based on a notion of natural law.  From
the facts that men dominate and rape women in pre-civilized societies
(one can argue about whether this is a fact, but she takes it as one),
she concludes that rape and domination are natural aspects of the
relationship between men and women.  Of course even she does not
conclude from this that they are good things.  But she does conclude
that because they are natural, it is unreasonable to expect them to be
eliminated, and anyone who behaves as if they do not exist is behaving
irrationally and deserves whatever they get.

                                        David desJardins


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