HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cptully@med.unc.edu (Christopher P. Tully)
Subject: Re: Climbs for short people
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:48:27 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.151839.26603@ncar.ucar.edu> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu
 (Ilana Stern) writes:
>Cheryl (5'2") and I (5'4") did an interesting route yesterday afternoon -- 
>the crux was a roof which seemed to require getting scrunched up underneath
>(in order to gain the footholds), then reaching out, finding a lieback
>edge around the corner, and leaning back, head tucked to clear the roof,
>then reaching up to a good knob above.  
>
>I went to the gym a lot this past winter with my friend Roy, who's 6'4",
>and although usually his height was a blatant advantage, occasional roof
>and cave problems were set up to deliberately make it harder for tall
>people.  It occurred to me that perhaps this route we did might also
>be harder for taller people -- the first natural route I've done where
>being small is an advantage!  (The route I'm talking about is Twofers,
>on Happy Hour Crag -- tall locals are welcome to concur or disagree).
>
>Does anybody else have a route to recommend where being short is an
>advantage?
>
>-- 
>/\        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they 
>  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | seem," was wrong.  Things are usually as they
>      \_______________________| seem.  Otherwise, they wouldn't seem that way.

I don't know who you climb with, but most of the _really_ good climbers that I
know have been uner 6'.

Chris Tully
cptully@med.unc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Trip Report: On Da Nose with Da Loobster!
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 22:59:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.230512.13751@news.mentorg.com>
billw@sjc.mentorg.com writes:
>Well the length of this post is surely going to give Eugene fits.  "Where
>do I find the time" he wonders?

Fits?  Naw.  One reads chunks at a time until one becomes bored.
News is just one window on the 19 inch screen.

Actually, I thought about scanning in Lowe's ascent of the North Face of
North Twin which is one of my favorite pieces like I scanned in Kor for Morton.
I think his survival was rather epic.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: black feet from Boreal Lasers
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:41:24 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

>In article <1992Jul23.155013.11193@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ummorea0@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Gene Moreau) writes:
>>I have a pair of Boreal Lasers, You know the black and pink slippers.  I
>>really like them, but I have this problem with them.  Every one else I
>>know who uses them has the same problem.  After about 15 mins of hard
>>climbing they turn your feet black.  After about 2 months of use they
>>don't seem to be letting up.  Couldn't Boreal have a non-sweat soluble dye??
>>It's also a bugger to get the dye off in the shower also. Any one of you
>>net.climbers happen to have an idea to stop getting black foot from them??


I would not complain too much my Lynxs leave my toes blue/purple.
Which to say the least makes my toes look similar to when I frost bit
all 10 toes one winter.  I get really strange looks after I climb and
wear my Birks afterwards.  If people ask you why your feet are black
make up some silly story like your an honary member of the Blackfeet
Indian Nation.  You could always bleach your feet and wash your shoes
which would remove the extra dye.

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah


"Pucky lads, a wee bit over their heads"

	Doug Scott after encountering two climbers
	on Denali suffering from exposure.
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2576 rec.backcountry:5571
From: czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:32:36 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments

In article <eric.712022536@milton> eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst)
writes:

>Here's my test case: You judge my actions.
>
>Without pausing, I obliterated the cairn with a gentle kick, then another.
>As I was setting my sights on a third, Tim exploded at me, profoundly pissed.
>I'll leave out the expletives, but his basic argument was that it was not for
>me to judge whether people with weaker routefinding skills should be excluded
>from any given spot in the mountains.  My basic argument is that the local
>Mountaineers are out of control and are willing to make every mountain as
>accessible to as many people as they can get away with.  By knocking down
>those cairns, I was trying to save yet another mountain from domestication
>before doing so could introduce any risk to others who might attempt it bare
>naked with wet hair expecting a graded trail.
>
>Incidentally, I was relieved to find that there was no summit register to
>litter the spectacular exposed summit.  Some spots just don't seem to need
>them.
>
>So, was I nice, or was I naughty?
>
>Eric Hirst

I think you know the answer.  Consider yourself fortunate I wasn't your hiking
partner that day.  You'd have gotten more than a verbal reprimand.  The current
issue of Rock & Ice contains a news item about "justified" vandalism on
climbing routes in California.  Ron Kauk, et al. has been working on a 5.14
route (the Front in Yosemite?) and has inconspicuously reinforced some of the
more fragile holds with epoxy (injected behind the flake).  A fellow named
Bachar came by later, noticed the epoxy, broke the holds off the wall with a
crowbar leaving enormous scars.  Bachar justifies his vandalism much the way
you justify yours.  

We should be working to improve access to climbing areas by responsible
people, hence The Access Fund.  Rock cairns and inconspicuously placed log
books have virtually no environmental impact.  Perhaps your parents should
have taught you how to share.

Cary Czichon
czichon@csc.ti.com
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2538 ba.general:3125
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,ba.general
From: apurmal@us.oracle.com
Subject: Castle Rock State Park climbing info?
Organization: Oracle Corporation, USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:54:22 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

     Since the book "Bay Area Rock" is out of print and no one seems
to have any copies in stock, I'll ask my questions here.  Could
someone please describe the climbs at Castle Rock State Park?  I'm
interested in the climbs up Goat Rock and the surrounding rocks and
the wall next to the waterfall.  I'm new to the sport, and I'd like
to get an idea of what my friend and I might be able to tackle.  I'd
also appreciate any other information you might have regarding
climbing at Castle Rock.

Thanks,

Tony Purmal
apurmal@us.oracle.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: valentin@mot.com (Matt_Valentine)
Subject: Re: Public perceptions.
Reply-To: valentin@next3.corp.mot.com
Organization: MOTOROLA 
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:07:43 GMT

     I once took my friend (going for his PhD in high energy physics) rock  
climbing for the first time.  He asked "when did they make all these  
cliffs?" - apparently he thought someone had blasted away at the mountains  
with dynomite to create the vertical crags.  I got a good laugh until the  
dumfounded look on his face told me he was not joking.  I never took him  
climbing again.
From: u6404646@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Climbs for short people
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:56:04 GMT
Organization: The University of Melbourne

Not a route a lot of readers of this group will do, but...

The Verandah, Grade 14 (5.7 ish), North Jawbones, Victoria, Australia.

Tall people need to actually swing on their arms to do this one, with
both feet swinging, but short arses like myself (5'8'') can just scrunch
up under the little overhang, and reach around. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

The other one that comes to mind is The Freak, 20 (5.10) at werribe
Gorge, Victoria.

Twice in six bloody years !

	Andrew Davies
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2540 ba.general:3130
From: ron@cup.hp.com (Ron Gould)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,ba.general
Subject: Re: Castle Rock State Park climbing info?
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:40:41 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Cupertino, CA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

There is a new book on Bay Area climbing.  I took a quick look at
one at Western Mountaineering in San Jose and it seems to cover
just about all the areas that the out-o-print book did.


Ron Gould
From: unger@mitem.com (Tom Unger)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: climb sport lingo
Date: 23 Jul 92 02:18:55 GMT
Organization: MITEM Corp

In article <1992Jul17.173221.3504@bnlux1.bnl.gov> shyen@bnl.gov writes:
>Hi!  I'm a beginner at this sport.  It did not take me 
>long to realize that there are many specialized terms
>(lingo) used in this sport that a beginner is not expected
>to understand (what is a red point?). 

Yea, there should be a glossery posted to this group on a regular basis.
I would offer to do it, but I'm still about 50% clueless.  Plus, I'm
quitting my job to go climbing, hiking, and traveling for a year.

Tom Unger
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: climb sport lingo
From: mtemple@calstatela.edu (Mark Temple 12-10-90)
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:44:49 PDT
Reply-To: mtemple@calstatela.edu
Distribution: world
Organization: Cal State University, Los Angeles

In article 712000270@milton, eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst) writes:
> A couple other sport climbing terms:
> 
> Low-angle - Anything less than 95 degrees.
> 
> Run-out - The bolts are more than 5 feet apart.
> 
> Alpine route - Anything out of earshot of the car radio.
> 
> Committing - Used to describe a climb with the rap anchor more than 80 feet
> off the ground, or one which does not have quickdraws already in place.
> 
> But seriously, what does "aggro" mean?  Or am I a cooler person for not
> knowing?
> 
It is a so cal boarders (surf, skate, snow) term for aggresive.

> -Eric "Watched some Shelf Roadies top out on a 5.11 on City of Rocks' Window
> Rock, then belay across the 1/4 acre flat summit to the rap station, over 
> terrain which my mom could safely negotiate unroped on a pogo stick" Hirst
maybe they didn't feel like embarassing themselves by cratering from 5.0

> eric@milton.u.washington.edu




Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: martyg@Ingres.COM (Marty Garrison)
Subject: Re: Third Pillar, Regular Route in Tuolumne Meadows
Reply-To: martyg@Ingres.COM (Marty Garrison)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Distribution: us
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:26:14 GMT

In article <VLADIMIR.92Jul28224512@ronnie.Eng.Sun.COM> vladimir@Eng.Sun.COM (Vladimir Ivanovic) writes:
>The third edition of "Rock Climbs of Tuolumne Meadows" (p. 87) has it
>listed as 5.10b but the topo shows a parallel 5.7 crack next to the 5.10b
>section on the third pitch.  The second edition has the same climb listed
>as 5.9, without the 5.10b section (p. 58).
>
>Is this a misprint?  Did a hold fall off?  Was it a sandbag?  In
>desperation I can lead 5.10b, but I'd *MUCH* prefer doing the 5.7 variation
>instead of the 5.10b.
>
I haven't seen the new guide, but the climb always had two little 10
sections on it. both are thin crack/face bulges. 

>How about the approach?  Are there any gotchas?
>
what I've done is do half the approach the evening before, and
sleep up in the forest. this allows one to do the route and
be back at the car by around 2-3 the next day. it's really not
a very long route.
>Words of wisdom would be appreciated.
>
>-- Vladimir
>--
>Vladimir G. Ivanovic                            Sun Microsystems, Inc
>(415) 336-2315                                  MTV12-33
>vladimir@Eng.Sun.COM                            2550 Garcia Ave.
>{decwrl,hplabs,ucbvax}!sun!Eng!vladimir         Mountain View, CA 94043-1100
>                         Disclaimer: I speak for myself.


Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: pruss@helix.nih.gov (dmitry pruss)
Subject: Re: nude swimming question
Followup-To: rec.nude 
Summary: FISHERS and CLIMBERS, don't miss a fun!  
Keywords: penis, catfish, Mt. Roraima 
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:37:07 GMT


In rec.nude, jlysagh@hubcap.clemson.edu (james joseph lysaght) writes:

>I was at the lake recently (bible belt south carolina must wear swim
>suit lake) and there were a whole lot of fish in this lake coming up
>nipping at me and at all the other people.  Nothing bad, just some brim
>nipping.  Anyway... I have never been to a nude beach or camp or such
>and the thought occurred to me.  If I were to swim nude in this lake I
>might find it rather discomforting if some of the bigger fish mistake my
>worm for a worm and go at it.  Anyone ever have a problem with this?  Do
>choose a lake that is low on nipping fish or what?  Is there something
>analogous to the "Bat Shark Repelent" to use?
>
>Jim

H.McInness, a climber from Scotland, wrote a book describing his ascent to
Mt.Roraima (in Venezuela?) (This mountain plateau country called tepui
served as a prototype for Conan Doyle's Lost World).

Among ather funny things, he describes a small catfish called vandella
(sp??) which is allegedly attracted by a smell of urine. He claims that the
fish enters genitalia channels and can't go away anymore.

Did anybody have a correct reference?
Can anybody comment?
A few comments from rec.nude were:

	D
From: William A. Wood <wawood@ab00.larc.nasa.gov>

 I read in a reputable travel guide to South America (S.A. on $40/day or the
 like) and they did highly recomend rubber swim suits as there are fish
 which like to swim into body orifices.  This catfish could be what they
 were refering to.

 Bill Wood  (wawood@larc.nasa.gov)

From: tdsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith)

Comment:   Yiiikkkkeeesss!!!  Ow ow ow ow ow....

    This fis story is a wives tale. An ichtheologist (sp) friend of 
mine tells it all the time, but when pressed admits it's a hoax.

Tim Smith

From: "Terry J. Wood" <TJW@vms.cis.pitt.edu>

Ask about this in alt.folklore.urban.

Terry

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:07:13 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.173623.2758@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
vleppert@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Valerie Leppert) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.152950.11282@ncar.ucar.edu> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
>>I would rather see a single (marked), well used trail, with pristine wilds
>>to each side, than dozens of use-trails and paths criss-crossing a delicate
>>environment.  Your mileage may vary.
>>
>
>On my last trip I ran into a guy using a guide to the backcountry that
>avoided established trails.  It supposedly was put out by the Sierra Club.
>I found it hard to believe that they would put out such a guide.  Does
>anyone know anything about this? It seems unethical to me.
>
>What if everyone declined to use trails?  What impact would this have on
>alpine meadows, for example?  Is it okay just for some people and not for
>others?  Can you really assume that you can travel in such a way as to have
>no impact at all?
>
>Keeping to established trails seems to follow the same logic as using
>existing firerings only. It seems sound.  When trails are overused the park
>service discourages use or reroutes them for a time.
>
>Of course the reality of the situation is that most people will probably
>continue to use established trails while some will go off the beaten path.
>Those few who do should thank the rest of us because without our
>cooperation (staying ON the trails) you wouldn't experience the pristine
>wilderness you're seeking.
>
Please be aware that in some cases the NPS reccommends the exact
opposite procedure to preserve meadows.  That is, they recomend that
each hiker take a unique and separate path across a meadow.  This
is on the premise that meadows are more damaged by everyone taking
the same path and wearing a groove across the meadow than by
many independent paths.  This advice was published by the NPS in
Yosemitee regarding the Toulomne Meadows area and nearby areas.

The request to "stay on the path" often derives more from NPS and
NFS personnel who get a little bored by rescuing lost hikers than
from ecologically correctness.  During a recent conversation with a
hiking partner, I discovered that she was aprehensive about leaving
thr trail because her father drilled the rule into her head when she
was small.  Eventually, I was able to demonstate that off-trail was
more interesting, more esthetic and a lot less disgusting than
slogging through miles of horse and mule shit!  I also tried to show
that you can make an effort to walk on rock, sand, gravel and other
mineral surfaces as much as possible and spare the meadow flora.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Why such an extremism ? (Was Re: cairns)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:08:08 GMT

In article <25911@sophia.inria.fr>,
luong@naxos.inria.fr (Quang-Tuan Luong) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.204202.29146@colorado.edu>, ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu
>(Gregory Hill) writes:
>|> I have been amazed that so many people are offended by cairns. I have never
>|> thought twice about them before this discussion, except to note that they
>|> sometimes look cool on a foggy day. It's just a pile of rocks!
>|> [...]
>
>I agree entirely. Before reading E. Hirst original message, I could
>not even imagine that people could act that way, and I just sent him a
>private flame. Now I am amazed by the whole discussion and the
>incredible arguments. I can ensure you that I have never seen here anybody
>destroying a cairn, or speaking about destroying cairns, and as far as
>I have spoken around me, that action is considered to be stupid or
>naughty. However, the possibility to destroy cairns is one of the reason they
>should not be destroyed.
>
>I reminds me the discussions about bolts and pitons. And now they don't
>even respect cairns ! Let me give just an exemple. If someone went, to
>La Loubiere crag, above Monaco, and said "You will respond to your children
>of the environemental impact", with the whole Riviera buidings
>and roads visible, and the bolts hardly visible from 100m, everyone here
>would laugh.
>
>I understand the ethics that are behind the actions aiming to maintain
>wilderness, and it seems respectable to me. However, you
>should remember that everything in life is a matter of compromise, and
>accept it. Extremist positions, as hold by some american climbers and
>hikers, are unreasonable. Mountain is also man's land. It is not a coincidence
>that hiking, climbing, and mountaineering (in a smaller extend), are popular
>in Europe.
>
>Tuan.

Before we compare European vs. American backcountry ethics we should
consider that a lot of the appearently magnificent apline scenery
(i.e., vast expanses of bare rock) were forested as little as 100
years ago.  There is still the possibilty to avoid this in North
America.  The comparisson between what Euopean's did to their
mountain regions and what North Americans still have left (as may be
able to keep if we are careful) should offer some insight to our
attitude.

As an aside, I gather that the Swiss are becomming aware of their
loss and are quite active in attempting reforestation.  I believe
they are also quite active in assisting people in the Himalayan
region to avoid the Euopean experience.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:56:44 GMT

In article <106480236@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>,
 byrnes@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Byrnes) writes:
|>Well I think you're both dickheads.  You obviously believe that everyone is
|>entitled to *your* opinion.
|>

Hmmmm, well, I think you are a dickhead.  You obviously believe that 
everyone is entitled to *your* opinion.

|>Don't let me catch you destroying cairns.
|>

Uh oh.

Hey, I've found myself getting lost on early spring hikes when the
snow has covered enough of the trail that I couldn't follow it. SO
WHAT???? I certainly hope our differences lie with the fact that we
disagree as to what extent trail marking should be used.  Or are you
suggesting that every possible OFF TRAIL route should be marked in
such a way that ANYONE can follow YOUR trail markings in the worst
possible conceived weather and seasonal conditions?  

To respond to some of the other comments, I actually ENJOY the cairns,
it provides entertainment for me when I knock them over ... the only
way that cairns get me upset is that recent cairn building is a good indicator
of increased traffic in an off trail area ... thus it's inevitable 
degredation.  Unless, of course, we're talking about those 500 cairns I've
seen marking a single park service trail in Chaco Canyon ... can't
remember the name of the ruin it went to, but it was at most a couple miles
through deeply entrenched sand.  Or, ... the cairns marking where to go
in a 500 foot deep, 80 foot wide canyon with sheer walls and no escape for 
miles ... of course, it could snow and you'd get lost, right?


--
Greg Jahn, Boise State Univ.|"You'd eat your young alive
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu / | for a Jaguar in the drive.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    / | You lie too much, you lie too badly"
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  / |          - Joni Mitchel


Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2678 rec.backcountry:5717
From: bobh@fuji.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 30 Jul 92 18:35:41 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona -- Tucson, AZ

In article <revillot-280792152357@mm-mac18.mse.uiuc.edu> revillot@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Judy Tolliver) writes:
>
>Try finding your way around parts of Canyonlands without cairns. 
>Especially in the Maze and Needles Districts where water can be scarce and
>routes go over bare rock ...
>
>--Judy Tolliver

I agree. I've always kicked over cairns in the Sierra, but in Canyonlands, I'm
on the lookout for the next one so I don't lose the trail. I guess the point is,
cairns have their place in certain areas. The appropriateness of the building and 
destruction of them depends, like most climbing/backcountry ethical issues, on
the judgement of the individual.

Bob Harrington
Hydrology and Water Resources
University of Arizona
From: rayman@lookout.uswest.com (Raymond Goure)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Looking for news of David Roberts, Denver.
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:16:37 GMT
Organization: US WEST Communications

I recently bought a book at the public library book sale authored by Mr. David Roberts, detailing his climb of Mt. Hunington, ( first ascent west face, 1965).
Some of Mr. Roberts experiences interest me and we have some history  in common,
so, if anyone has news of DR please send me mail.

regards,
ok
rayman
 
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: Doug.Hemken@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Doug Hemken)
Subject: Re: Climbing around Urbana, Ill.
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:58:43 GMT


You might check out Mississippi Palisades State Park in Illinois.  Be
aware that part of the bluff is closed to climbing.  Or you could check
out some of the sandstone areas in southern Illinois.

-=> Doug Hemken
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry