HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock vs. Sig!?
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:51:37 GMT
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

kgk@martigny.ai.mit.edu (Kleanthes Koniaris) writes:
#I know quite a bit about Glocks (I've even read Peter's book :), but
#relatively little about Sig's.  Could a Sig lover provide *technical*
#reasons for why the Sig is as good as/better than a Glock?  I don't
#want to hear "my Sig looks so pleasing that I stare at it all day, but
#the Glock is ugly that I recoil in horror, therefore the Sig is
#better."

I have a Glock and want to buy a SIG instead (and no, I *cant* buy 'em
all, as much as I'd like to :-) for the following reasons:

-  In case of misfire, the Glock trigger can't be pulled again
   without racking the slide.  Same situation as with SA pistols.
   With the SIG I have the additional option of pulling the
   trigger again.

-  The Glock trigger is quite light.  Too light for my comfort when
   my intended usage is home defense. 

-  The SIG ergonomics please my hand more than the rather bulky Glock.

-  I like SIG's decocking lever.  Much better than fooling around with
   the hammer as on my old CZ 75.  On the Glock, I don't have that
   option, it's not-quite-DA or nothing.

Note that my intention is not Glock-bashing (after all, these are
Austrian guns :-), so I'll include a list of points I like better
on the Glock than on the SIG:

-  Higher ammo capacity.  The G17 can store up to 19 rounds in the
   standard magazine (with the +2 extension).

-  Cleaning Glocks is not much work.  The plastic parts can be wiped
   off, that's it.

-  Glocks have no safety levers, decocking levers, etc.  Ease-of-use
   is of high importance, esp. in a stress situation.

I don't intend to name one as better than the other.

-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |
From: jimbo@socrates.umd.edu (Jim Bogard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norinco 1911 vs Springfield
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:03:01 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland University College

In Maryland (Baltimore), Walter's gun shop is selling the Norinco
for $199.  They have a target up from it, the grouping looks good.
I'm considering getting one to retire my ancient 1911... I wanna keep
it in working order for the (someday) son to inherit...
At any rate, I think ~$350 for just about any 1911 is a pretty good
price, around here at least.  That's why I'm considering a Norinco
as a replacement.

A Question: I want to get a Ruger Mk II for a shooting trip next
weekend, and the MD paperwork is beyond backed up... I can't find a 
used one, they go fast...  Anybody know a state where I can go plunk 
down my $ and walk out with one?  Or anybody with a VA driver's license
wanna make a quick $20?  1/2 :-)  Or got one to sell?
	[MODERATOR:  Uhhhh.... let's make that a 100% :-) okay? We 
	 don't *do* that sort of thing here via rec.guns....  So
	 let's assume Jim here is only asking for "private sale in MD."]

J-.

-- 
Jim Bogard  (jimbo@socrates.umd.edu)
                                            "Implement now, tweak later."
Tech at large / gigging daemon
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:55:23 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <199301260552.AA11169@news.service.uci.edu> spickett@orion.oac.uci.edu (Steve Pickett) writes:
# ...
#Sorry, I forgot to mention it was bottleneck rifle cases being filled. Hmmm,
#wonder how many grains of bullseye fit into a 308 case? Wonder who'd be crazy
#enough to fire it once loaded.  ...

  Well - Col. Hatcher seems to have fired 45 gr. of Bullseye in
a .30-'06 cartridge  behind a 170 gr. flat base proof bullet -
giving an estimated pressure of 133,000 psi.  "The head of the case
practically melted away, letting the gas out into the receiver well,
where it messed things up a bit, [blew off the bottom plate] 
and blew splinters off the stock, but the action held firm."
This was one of the improved "double heat treated receiver and bolt"
rifles.

#[MODERATOR:  I dunno ... I bet the bolt might approach better than subsonic
#speeds as it blows back, thought only for the fraction of a second before it
#lodges in the shooter's skull...]

  Pessimist!  (I suspect that Hatcher didn't actually hold this
rifle himself during the test.)

--henry schaffer
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trouble in MiraMesa
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:00:37 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

btree!andy@UCSD.EDU (Andy Bosik) writes:

#How often should a revolver user
#train? My personal feeling is that He should
#go shooting with me at least once a month.
#He also has the attitude that if He ever has
#to use the gun for defense,He'll "Shoot em in
#the leg!".

	Insane...   ...that you would give someone 
like this access to your firearms.

	Your friend is _clearly_ a menace to the safety of 
himself & other people, and arguably to the reputation of gun 
owners in general.   
	Why do you allow him to be this?

Jim Del Vecchio
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Best stopping power in handguns?
Date: 24 Jan 93 03:32:49 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1993Jan22.141008.10672@samba.oit.unc.edu> Harry.Johnson@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Harry Johnson) writes:
#Or have I asked some sort of age-old debate question that has no clear
#answer?

Well, there is a clear answer, but not a simple one.  There is a
definite positive correlation, taken over all kinds of ammo with
nearly any reasonable relative statistical weighting, between
projectile energy and likelihood of stopping a living target.
However, there are so many factors involved that even if you try
to set up ideal test situations you don't get the same results
each time from multiple instances of the same test conditions.
The whole business has to be treated statistically and thus the
criteria MUST allow for a certain amount of "fuzziness" in the
answer to such questions.

Reports from actual shooting incidents have shown .45 ACP to be
fairly effective against typical unarmored assailants, ASSUMING
a good expanding hollowpoint loading such as SilverTip or
Hydra-Shok is used.  FMJ ("ball") ammo isn't as effective, and
it isn't hard to understand (more or less) why that is so.

The "hot" (+P, +P+) 9x19mm loads were developed for use in
modern guns that could tolerate the higher pressures because
at SAAMI pressures 9mm Luger did not seem to be doing a good
enough job.  Hollowpoints expand best at higher speeds so
boosting the speed slightly helped expansion, thus stopping
potential, significantly.  Another way to boost speed is to
reduce bullet mass, thus the 115gr 9mm loads.  Of course
there is a tradeoff in that a sufficiently low mass projectile
would not do as much damage to the target as would a more
massive one.

Full-load 10mm may actually have worse average results in
self-defense shooting than 45 ACP, when bullet styles are
similar.  On the other hand there can be situations where
the additional penetration is useful.

In summary, if you choose the best defense loads in .45 ACP,
you should expect approximately as high a probability of a
shot stopping an assailant as with the best loads in other
handgun calibers, and better than in many calibers.  My
choice was .40S&W which has similar stopping properties to
.45 ACP (SAAMI pressure limits being observed) in a smaller
or more capacious weapon, but apart from the capacity issue
(which should seldom matter with Glock model 21) and size
(which matters only for concealment and how it fits one's
hand), there is no functional reason for choosing a smaller
caliber over .45 ACP.  There could be a savings on ammo
cost using 9mm, though.
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Fluted barrel
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:39:16 GMT
Organization: Sun

In article <9301221128.AA21122@smuggler.Utah.univel.COM> Thi_Huynh@univel.COM writes:
#Hi netters,
#
#I just ordered a Bushmaster XM15-E2 from Quality Parts with a fluted
#barrel for $790 (OUCH!).  From their catalog, they claimed rigidity
#is increased by 20 to 25%, among other things such as better cooling
#and weight reduction.

More cooling from increased surface area.

Weight reduced by grinding material off.

The fluted barrel would be x% stiffer than an unfluted barrel of about
the same weight.  The stiffness of a barrel (or other cylinder) increases
faster than the diameter increase.  I used to know the function for
stiffness increase back when I was trying to decide between a skinny-tube
steel-frame bicycle and a fat-tube aluminum frame.

Fatter is better.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
From: crumrine@erenj.com (MDCRUMR  Crumrine)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock vs. Sig!?
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:38:25 GMT
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering, NJ

In article <9301250428.AA28006@zippy.cs.UMD.EDU> kgk@martigny.ai.mit.edu (Kleanthes Koniaris) writes:
#
#Dear Readers:
#
#I have an old Glock 17 (which I bought in 1986), with 1992 Trijicon
#sights.  While I *love* my Glock, I am thinking of a second pistol;
#perhaps a collection of one pistol is too small, and our beloved
#Moderator's mantra is taking its toll (``Buy them all'' :).
#
#Anyway, given all of the "Sig, Sig, Sig," talk that I hear, I was
#considering a Sig P226 with K-kote and Sig-lights (Sig's tritium
#sights [which are also from Trijicon?]), in 9mm.  But then, in a
#moment of lucid thought, I realized that for the price of a Sig, I
#could almost get two Glocks.
#
#The natural question comes to mind, is the Sig better than the Glock?
#If so, why?

[stuff deleted]

#So, Sig owners, please be so kind as to post *why* the Sig is so good,
#and please be so kind, if possible, as to *compare* to the Glock.
#
#        ---kleanthes
#
#
#

I have owned the blued 226 since 1987 with 6000+ rounds thru it. Now,
I'm not the most meticulous when it comes to cleaning right after a
session, somtimes I wait 2 days, somtimes 2 weeks, if the session was
light (and I used factory ammo :) I skip until the next time. The
point is, this gun looks and shoots as good as the day I brought it,
which is to say _very_ good!

Mike Crumrine
crumrine@erenj.com
From: media!jim@uunet.UU.NET (Jim Gittelson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: More Night Vision Info
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:40:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: media.1993Jan26.201405.21677
Organization: Media Cybernetics, Inc.

Oh no, more addresses of manufacturers of night vision equipment!
Some of these may be repeats, if so, well.... tough! ;)

I am not affiliated with these outfits, just posting for the benfiet of all!


Michael Tenny CO.
Box 482
Denton, TX 76202
817.482.3005
has some equipment for $600 w/ free 30 day trial


Night Optics International
1513 First St.
Susanville, CA. 96130
916.251.5816 (info)
800.729.6598 (orders)
From: callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SIG Sauer P226: I now understand the cult
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:51:30 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <9301201657.AA07226@optilink.com> cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
#My last encounter with the P226 left me underwhelmed.  I have one in stock
#for a customer at the moment, and I am beginning to understand the cult of
#the SIG.  It's esthetically hopeless, but ergonomically beautiful.  

Oh, no, no, no, it's aesthetically beatiful, as well. It's no P210, but it's
no Colt 2000, either... :-)

#Every
#control comes to position perfectly.  The lack of ambidextrous controls
#causes me no suffering whatsoever, because I can manipulate EVERYTHING
#with the left hand.  The double action trigger is the first that I can recall
#that doesn't make me feel like I'm being punished for having double action.

It doesn't have the DA trigger of my S&W Model 29 or a Colt Python, but
it has an excellent DA trigger for a combat auto--the best I've ever
tried.

#Now, if only it wasn't almost twice as expensive as most of its competitors...

Don't think of it like that--think of it as a short-barreled, stockless
CAR with superior fit, finish, and reliability without the legal hassles. :-)

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: bellcore!bae.bae.bellcore.com!wind@uunet.UU.NET (Wind Chen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sig P220, Assembled by RPI?????
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:59 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research

In article <68EA02P733SV01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, mws20@ccc.amdahl.com (Mark Sechrest) writes:
|> 
|> A local gun dealer has a limited nember of Sig P220's chambered in 9mm
|> at an attractive price. The smith there tells me that these were overruns
|> on a production for the Taiwanese special police. On the side they say

   P220 has 3 calibers, 9mm is one of them.  Check the Sig catalog, they are
   on the 1st page.  By this, I believe 9mm-P220 is part of regular production.
   However, "Assmebled by RPI" means this was made for a special contract, and
   "overrun" is also true - otherwise you won't be able to buy it, right :-).

|> "Assmebled by RPI" but the rest of the Sigs he has on display do not. Any
|> idea who RPI is and why they were assembling guns for Sig? Would this be
|> a good buy at $470?
|> 
|> Mark

-- 
_/   _/ _/ _/  _/   ____/
_/  _/ _/  _/ _/   _/
_/ _/ _/   _/_/   _/
_/_/__/     _/   _/                 Wind Chen
__/ _/ _/  _/ _/ ____/ _/           wind@bae.bellcore.com
From: jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: slide work on Colt .45
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:37:31 GMT
Organization: Dell Computer Co


Does anyone have any ideas on how to smooth out the slide action on a .45?
I have one with a bit of a catch in it (not terrible, but noticeable) at
the very end of the slide pull.  I'm hoping I don't have to take it to a
gunsmith to fix and is something that I can do myself.

-- 
Randy Howard            _o	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
Dell Computer Corp.     \<,	    !'s: ...!uunet!dellunix!jrh
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, 
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H. L. Mencken
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Guns used in assassinations
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:56:15 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <ATAYLOR.93Jan25093603@gauss.nmsu.edu> ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:
#<In article <1993Jan24.023112.17358@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#<   * BTW a show last night on Fox said that the FBI declined to do
#<   any tests on James Earl Ray's rifle to determine if has even 
#<   been fired since the last time it was cleaned (it was found 
#<   moments after the murder), or to see if its rifling matches 
#<   that on the fully intact bullet they recovered from MLK.
#
#<   According to the show, to this day they refuse to allow any 
#<   tests of this sort to be done on the rifle.  "The case is
#<   closed", I guess.
#
#	Huh. Seems a bit strange...

A reference I have here says that MLK was shot in the throat with a
"single fragmenting bullet" which tore open his throat and severed his
spine.

A later reference says "Because two bullet fragments taken from King's
body were so distorted that ballistic tests were inconclusive" implies
that that either not enough bullet jacket was found to serve as a
match for a bullet fired from the found rifle or that there was so
little found that no one bothered to fire a bullet to not match.

References from _It's a Conspiracy_ by the National Insecurity
Council.  Honest.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: gun in an apartment
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:39:55 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1993Jan23.150733.21597@ke4zv.uucp>, by gary%ke4zv.uucp@mathcs.emory.edu (Gary Coffman):
# In article <1jjsb2INN438@girtab.usc.edu> plaw@usc.edu (Patrick Law) writes:
# #I just bought a gun recently and I am going to pick it up after the two 
# #weeks waiting period. I have a problem of finding a safe place to keep 
# #my gun in my apartment. There is no gate in the apartment complex and
# #one could break into anyone of it with simply a screwdriver. I wonder 
# #if anybody out there has the same problem. Please help.
# 

You might want to look up a copy of "How to Hide Almost Anything" (sorry I
don't remember the author).  If they can't find it, they can't steal it ;-{).
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: the spirit of rec.guns
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:00:47 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <9301210053.AA12733@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca> keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla) writes:
-I've been thinking, can we start calling 'assault rifles' something
-better, such as 'service rifles'.  That is what they are, after all.
-Yes, its fun to type 'Evil Assault Rifle {tm}', (I do it), but we
-may not be helping our cause.

How about "militia arms", which is pretty accurate.
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Navy small arms (was Re: well-armed pilots...)
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:49:59 GMT
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi

In article <1993Jan15.120529.6095@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#I've noticed that the ground forces in Somalia (Marines? Army?) are
#all shown packing  Berettas, but the nightly news showed some Navy
#footage.  The guy patrolling the deck was carrying what looked like
#an M14, and the Navy pilot getting ready to Rock & Roll was checking
#his 1911-A1.  Is the Navy more traditional than the Army, or just
#likes Big Iron better, or just doesn't care as much about NATO
#compatability, or what?  Kinda makes you fond of the Navy ;-)

This has been discussed here before. The Navy still uses the M-14
for shipboard applications because:
  1. The 7.62 bullet is more effective for shooting at targets in
     the water than the 5.56 mm bullet (e.g. sharks, mines, swimmers).
  2. They have them in stock.
  3. There is less problem stocking several calibers of ammo onboard
     a ship than there is in  an infantry company.
  4. There is no particular advantage to  having a lighter weight
     gun & ammo on a ship.

As for the 1911A1, I would guess that the Navy is  just farther down
the priority list for small arms procurements than the other branches.
When you think about it, there is very little reason for a pilot
to carry a standard sidearm. He could probably pick anything from a
.32 pocket pistol to a Widley in .45 Win. Magnum, depending on the
circumstances, and be served as well as he would by a service pistol.
-- 
Donald R. Newcomb                * Oh please, Mr. Clinton, won't
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu        * you please just tax that other
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet            * guy and send his money to me?
From: jacobus@symphony.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Looking for black-powder sources.
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:59:51 GMT
Organization: Purdue University




I'm joining a historical enactment society affiliated with the Forces of
Montcalm and Wolfe, and, of course, part of my accoutrements will eventually
include either a Model 2 Bess (with a barrel cut down to 40 inches or so--my
unit was known to do that) or a French hunting rifle appropriate to the period
1760 or so (my unit was also documented as having carried off a few French
hunting pieces after a raid).

Anyway, my problem is that reliable reproductions can be expensive.  The best
price I've seen so far is a Model 2 Bess kit from Italy which runs around $400
US.  Is this typical or can such prices be improved?  Also, is there a source
for reproduction French hunting pieces of the period?
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Clips are not magazines
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:24 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science


	At the risk of being pedantic, I'd like to get on my
	soapbox and point out that magazines are metal objects
	that surround cartridges (NOT "BULLETS") with a spring
	and 'follower'.

	Clips are pieces of metal which do not enclose  or completely
	surround cartridges. 

	All modern self-loading pistols (with the exception of
	the early Grendels) that I know of use MAGAZINES. Early
	self-loading pistols such as the "broomhandle" Mauser
	used CLIPS. The early Grendels used CLIPS.

	The M1A (civilianized M14) uses a MAGAZINE. 
	
	The M1 Garand uses a CLIP.

	The M1 Carbine uses a MAGAZINE, but a CLIP may be used
	to load the MAGAZINE (as may be done with the M1A/M14,
	AR-15/M16 MAGAZINES as well.)

	Yes, it seems a trivial distinction, just as making the
	difference between "bullet" and "cartridge" seems trivial...
	until one takes up reloading.

	Bear in mind, however, that laws have been proposed 
	limiting the size of "clips"....as well as "clips,
	magazines and/or feeding devices"; these laws did not
	define what such things were, however.

	It behooves us to know what we are talking about.
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:20 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1jpr52INNo9@mojo.eng.umd.edu> chuck@eng.umd.edu (Chuck Harris - WA3UQV) writes:

}All my spent brass looks the same.  How would you determine that the cartridge
}wasn't a factory load?  ...

Analysis of the powder residue would likely reveal it wasn't the formula
used by any commercial manufacturer, let alone the one on the headstamp.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                "If you can't stand solitude,
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  perhaps others find you boring
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        as well."  -- Mark Twain
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Saigon Smuggler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock Carbines (was Re: MP-5 question)
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:41:56 GMT
Organization: Univel

In article <1993Jan21.174711.7856@netcom.com>, pismobch@netcom.com (Ed Devinney) writes:
|> * Has anyone fired the SP89?  Can you do it one-handed?  Accurately?  It
|> would seem to have the same problem as the full-sized Uzi 'pistols' - one
|> hand supporting a carbine-weight weapon).

Gun Test did a review on this H&K about a year ago.  If I recall correctly, they
mentioned that the gun has no practical purposes except plinking.  The gun 
itself is very nice though (they said).

Never fired one but held one at a local gun store, I would say that with a 30-round
magazine, and no stock, I agree with Gun Test.

And it is expensive!

-tt