HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Medal of Honor (was smoothbores, etc)
Date: 5 Sep 92 01:14:41 GMT
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab

In article <1992Sep3.201436.8170@odin.corp.sgi.com>, root@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Super-User) writes:
: 
: 
: They revoked CMHs After WWI?!?! 
: 

Well, actually in 1916, before US involvement (as we would say).

: I can scarcely believe that people would do that. (only the fact that Congress
: did it renders it believable.) 
: 
: To think they'd revoke medals over 50 years after the fact is astonishing. 
: 

Setting aside the case of Dr. Mary Walker, there was considerable
justification (IMHO) for raising the standards for the CMoH. During the
ACW it was the only medal, but by 1916 it was felt that since it was
the first, it should also be the most prestigious military decoration.

The 1916 congress revoked a total of 911 CMoH's (including Dr.
Walker's). However this total included 864 that went to the 27th Maine
who received them for remaining on garrison duty in Washington for a
brief period after the expiration of their enlistment. It also
included 29 awarded to the Honor Guard that accompanied Lincoln's body
by train to Springfield. Even after these 911 were revoked (as I
pointed out earlier, Dr. Walker's was eventually restored
posthumously) there were over 1500 CMoH's on record for service in the
ACW. That is more than double the total for WW's I & II, Korea and
Viet Nam (it is, of course, not totally unreasonable that the ACW
should have had the most CMoH's, since it was by far the bloodiest
American war).

To give some feeling for how the standards for the CMoH changed in
1916, there were over 300 awarded in the first 16 years of the 20th
Century (for such forgettable actions as the Philippine Insurrection,
The Boxer Rebellion, and the 1914 Battle and occupation of Vera Cruz,
Mexico). That total is more than the combined total for WWI and Korea, 
almost 50% more than Viet Nam, over 50% more than the combined WWII
actions in the Atlantic, Europe and Africa, and over 40% more than the
WWII total in the Pacific.

: I don't blame her for not surrendering it. 
: 
: If I were her, I'd be tempted to stuff it up the fundamental aperture of my 
Congressman. 
: 
: JZ

Now, now! Remember, she was a "lady".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV   (I'm posting from my own account, but not the preferred one)
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-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV   (I'm posting from my own account, but not the preferred one)
        "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is a War Room!"
from _Dr. Strangelove: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb_
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From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: peculiar institutions
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:03:54 GMT
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Organization: SGI TechPubs

In article <009606BB.70F42D60@OCTAVO>, jthoppers@OCTAVO writes:
>Question: In the opinion of my fellow group members, would the 
>elimination of slavery have caused economic chaos for the south?

It certainly did! 
 
>Could planters have freed their slaves and then hired them on 
>as very poorly paid migrant workers. In considering this question 
>I recall that the Federal government offered to compensate slave 
>owners at one point, for loss in slaves as property value/income 
>producing investments.

Hiring them as poorly paid workers was exactly what many did. After Reconstruction,
there wasn't much interest in the plight of the freedmen.  As I recall, it was proposed
for the U.S. to buy the slaves, but never enacted. 

>Caveat: I've already answered this question in my own mind (no, it 
>would not have caused economic chaos. The real chaos would have been 
>social), so none but the most overwhelming arguments will convince me 
>otherwise. I am curious about your opinions, however.

Since the war caused both great economic and social chaos, it is hard to know. 
The economy of the South has only really recovered since WWII, some say. The
social chaos, though, subsided (or people adapted) rather more quickly. It subsided
into Jim Crow, sharecropping, and a host of other things. 

JZ
From: KARLIN@BNLCL6.BNL.GOV (P.L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Splitting this news group to military and social
Summary: Disagreement with the proposal to split the newsgroup.
Keywords: alt.war.civil.usa, newsgroup, military, social
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:50:42 GMT
Reply-To: COWAN@ANL.GOV
Organization: BROOKHAVEN NATIONAL LABORATORY
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

In <gebg8v_00WBNI76nZ5@andrew.cmu.edu> tj06+@andrew.cmu.edu writes:

:>> 
:>> I'm glad I found this newsgroup. However, I wouldn't mind seeing it
:>> split into two groups:
:>> 
:>>     alt.war.civil.usa.mil   (purely military & battle topics)
:>>     alt.war.civil.usa.soc   (social, political and diplomatic topics)
:>> 
:>> Opinions?
:>> 
:>> Tom j.
:
:In article <NLHDqB13w165w@bluemoon.rn.com> djredick@bluemoon.rn.com (Darrin J. Redick) writes:
:>
:>Here, here!  I second that notion!  I don't enjoy seeing the current 
:>'battle' on here between Jones and everyone else.  I enjoy seeing stuff
:>on what really counts (for me, anyway): the actual CW battles.  Perhaps
:>a CFV, or RFD is in order here.
:>
:I'm opposed to the division: I think the majority of traffic would simply
:be crossposted or would be missed by a large interested readership.
:I think the appropriate response to Mr. Murphy (or Mr. Casper, depending
:on which side you take) is to create a kill file, not to divide the
:newsgroup.
:-- 
:Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu
:

I agree with Steve. There is no point in splinting the group. (BTW I uncovered
this thread by accident since I have /urphy/ in my kill file for both headers
and text. I suspect I am not alone in this, so if you want this discussion
to reach everybody, becareful what you include.) 

The recent exchanges between Mr. M_____ and Mr. (Dr.?) Casper have included
such things as the Library at Alexandria (and that is at the most benign
extreme). There is no reason to believe such discussions would adhere to
revised guidelines any better than the existing ones. I am interested in
both the military *AND* social, political etc. aspects of the American Civil
War, and I think the same holds for most readers. 

The flamewars, irrelevant discussions etc are best handled by kill files. 
You miss nothing interesting when you use one (I've checked.)



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV   (I'm posting this from a friend's account)

     "I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall 
adopt new views so fast as they appear to be true views." 
  -  A. Lincoln, Letter to the Editor, New York Tribune, August 22, 1862

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From: p00098@mail.psi.net (Jones M Murphy Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: peculiar institutions
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:14:25 GMT
Organization: NatWest Investment Bancorp,National Westminster Bank PLC
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.11)

FROM:   jthoppers@OCTAVO
>
>Question: In the opinion of my fellow group members, would the 
>elimination of slavery have caused economic chaos for the south? 
>Could planters have freed their slaves and then hired them on 
>as very poorly paid migrant workers. In considering this question 
>I recall that the Federal government offered to compensate slave 
>owners at one point, for loss in slaves as property value/income 
>producing investments.

I'm not sure this ever actually happened anywhere but in the District of 
Columbia, where many slaveholders actually took advantage of the offer. 
I'd appreciate any info on this. One cannot help but marvel at the 
spectacle of white people holding AFricans hostage at gunpoint and 
calling them "slaves" in the very capital of a nation built on the 
premise that it is "self-evident, that all men are created equal, and endowed
with certain inalienable rights..." 

When this proposal was made in Virginia, the editor of the "Richmond 
Enquirer" averred that it was "ludicrous, chimerical, and 
factious,...presumptuous, foolish, and traitorous, evidence of abolition insanity."

>Caveat: I've already answered this question in my own mind (no, it 
>would not have caused economic chaos. The real chaos would have been 
>social), so none but the most overwhelming arguments will convince me 
>otherwise. I am curious about your opinions, however.
>

You're venturing down a well-trodden path, to be sure. Benjamin Lundy 
attempted to establish a colony of free Africans in then-Mexican Texas, 
which had abolished slavery. Indeed, at least one of Mexico's Presidents, 
one Vicente Garcia, was descended from black slaves. Lundy's purpose 
was to demonstrate to Southerners that they would get greater 
productivity out of African workers if they didn't drive them with 
whip-blows from dawn to dusk.

Stephen F. Austin's settlers were outraged and ultimately drove Lundy 
out of Texas, which they were determined to see become a slaveholding 
territory. I am generally appalled by how ignorant most Americans are of 
the fact that the defenders of the Alamo were in fact the defenders of 
slavery.
Jones
From: bjm1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Bobbie J. Mann)
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Organization: Mississippi State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 06:37:34 GMT

My ggggrandfather William Mann, fought with the 5th Arkansas.
My ggggrandfather John Terry Lack fought with an artillery unit from Va.


Willam Mann, was a farmer in NE Arkansas.  While off fighting, the Union army (
chasing the Confederates from MO. into AR) camped on William's land--chopped
down all of his wheat for the Union horses, killed all of his livestock (except
one hen, which managed to escape into the woods).  Pvt. Mann was wounded at
Murfreesboro, returned home to recover, only to find that his wife had died and
his in-laws had taken their twin children to Texas.

pvt. Lack signed up in April of '62, then never showed up for a battle. Family
rumor has it that he got sick in camp and died.  *I* think, :), that he found
another woman and ran off with her. (jk).

Ma Lack packed up the family after the war and made the trek from Va. to Ar.

Another side note, one that the family-tree-searchers in the family can't seem
to prove--or disprove.  Pa Mann moved to AR from IL in 1860 after Lincoln was
elected.  Behind him he left a large clan of Mann's--many of which fought for
the Union.  The clan of Mann's left behind can be traced along the same path
from Va as my family--but we can't make the connection.  As recent as the 1940's, THAT clan visited the area of AR that my family live in.  My great-aunt denies (at times almost violently) that they are any relation to us.  But, we believe
that somehow they are.  I realize that *many* families say this, but my own
grandfather says he remembers something about brother fighting brother in the
civil war.  Well, we can't find those brothers, but it sure looks like it was
cousin v. cousin.

fun stuff.

Roland

Local history has it that a Union cannon still lies buried in the San Francis
River.  The Rebs had captured it in Mo., but had to abandon it when the Yanks
persued.  So, rather than let the Yanks have it, they pushed it in the river.
The battle was the battle of Chalk Bluff.  My grandfather still owns a farm not
far from the battle site.  Trenches can still be found, but the area is very 
grown up with trees and such.

that somehow they are.
Xref: sparky alt.war.civil.usa:1174 alt.appalachian:707
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Secession Crisis Lit (Re: ...secession of Virginia.)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 16:09:39 GMT

In article <18s3fsINN8lc@agate.berkeley.edu> turrell@violet.berkeley.edu (David Turrell) writes:
>
>A bit of trivia learned from the book: the Supreme Court has held that
>the Civil War started on April 19, 1861, when Lincoln proclaimed the
>blockade of Confederate ports. I suppose Johnson's May 10, 1865,
>proclamation declaring a cessation of hostilities marked the end.

Kirby Smith held out until July in the Trans-Mississippi. (I don't know 
if it's that he held out or just that it took two months to get the
news of Lee's surrender to him.)
I suspect that ruling came up in regards to some question over who could
collect a pension.
-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu

"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: jeromema@cc.uvcc.edu
Subject: Poetic License(?) (was Re: Reenactment)
Organization: Utah Valley Community College
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:32:08 GMT

In article <2925477496.6.p00098@mail.psi.net>, Jones M Murphy Jr writes:

>>Perhaps some Africans will be whipped and lynched, to add realism? A mock
>>slave auction, perhaps, where young children will be ripped from their 
>>mother's breasts to be sold to the highest bidder? This kind of "living 
>>history" sickens me, with it's lopsided focus on one set of battles and 
>>one tiny facet of the Great American Race War.
>>Jones

Is this another form of your being facetious or hyperbolic?  Do you really
believe that that sort of human degradation is going to be countenanced at
a Civil War re-enactment?

It appears that you have never been to a re-enactment or spoken person-to-person
with re-enactors and you are, therefore, lacking in a working knowledge in this
particular area.

>There were, however, men from the 4th USCT in the battles, and a number of
>free Africans in the union camp, and I believe some slave re-enactors in the
>Confederate camp to provide information about slaves. 

>You might want to ask a member of the USCT re-enactors why they do it, or any
>other africans who might be at a re-enactment why they are there.
>JZ

Jeff, I think it would be great if you wouldn't mind going to the extra trouble
of relaying opinions from these re-enactors since they are a part of N.C.W.A.
Perhaps Roy could contact them and have them place an article(s) placed in the
Dispatch.  I would be happy to upload then to the news group if there is an
interest.

Marc D. Jerome
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa,alt.appalachian
From: smith@sctc.com (Rick Smith)
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Organization: SCTC
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:39:11 GMT

Most of my ancestors were sober Quaker-descended farmers who didn't
take part in the fight. However, a great-great uncle, Levi Strong,
went to war with a bunch of other Union volunteers from the Midwest.
He got captured at Shiloh and ended up in Andersonville. My family got
letters from him, including one from Andersonville. Nobody heard from
him again after that last letter. Sixty years later his sister, my
great grandmother, fell victim to Alzheimer's and started asking that
his long-lost remains be moved from Georgia to the family cemetary in
Illinois.

My stepmother's grandfather, Captain Henry Pillow, joined a group of
Union volunteers from Pennsylvania. I have his sword, though I don't
know much about what he did.

My wife's great grandfather, Captain Henry Atherton, led a group from
New Hampshire (probably the Nashua area). An aunt has a recruiting
poster he printed. The family story says that he got injured fairly
early and was discharged. He went home and ran a newspaper.

The really peculiar thing for me was that I was brought up in
Virginia, learning about the War from state-approved history books.
Four chapters on Geo. Washington and the Revolution, four chapters on
the War and R.E. Lee, two chapters on Jamestown, and a chapter or two
to fill in any remaining gaps. It was weird to reconcile the biases of
education with my own family's history.

Rick.
smith@sctc.com               arden hills, minnesota
From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Reenactment
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:14:08 GMT
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Organization: SGI TechPubs

In article <2925477496.6.p00098@mail.psi.net>, Jones M Murphy Jr writes:

>Perhaps some Africans will be whipped and lynched, to add realism? A mock
>slave auction, perhaps, where young children will be ripped from their 
>mother's breasts to be sold to the highest bidder? This kind of "living 
>history" sickens me, with it's lopsided focus on one set of battles and 
>one tiny facet of the Great American Race War.
>Jones

Well, no, no one was whipped, lynched, or auctioned.  There were, however, 
men from the 4th USCT in the battles, and a number of free Africans in 
the union camp, and I believe some slave re-enactors in the Confederate
camp to provide information about slaves. 

Yes, Jones, it's a microscope on one facet of the times. You might want, though,
to ask a member of the USCT re-enactors why they do it, or any other africans
who might be at a re-enactment why they are there. I've never asked, because I
always assumed that the answer would be to make sure that people remembered
that they existed and to tell people about their lives. 

JZ
From: cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:55:16 GMT
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab

In article <0096060D.BC1DA7C0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, gcv2010@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
> In article <1992Sep9.193628.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu>, cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan) writes:
>>In article <9SEP199216143981@vxcrna.cern.ch>, casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>> In article <1992Sep8.221013.1205@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au>, whijv2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (WHITAKER JASON) writes...
>>>>I was wondering if any novels have been based on the Civil War?
>>>> 
> How about Gore Vidal's "Lincoln"?  I started it, got about 100 pages into it,
> and then classes started and it was due back at the library.  I'll pick it up
> again, I'm sure.  Vidal made the characters seem alive;  it puts a
> different spin on the ACW (for me, anyhow) when Lincoln teases his wife about
> her vanity;  when John Hay cruises the bordellos;  etc.
> 
> My $.02,
> Cheryl

I haven't read Vidal's _Lincoln_ but I did enjoy his _Burr_ for similar 
reasons. At first blush this would seem to have nothing to do with 
the ACW, but when you read it you gain some appreciation for the 
fact that the issue of secession was with the US from the beginning.

BTW, if and when this newsgroup ever does write a FAQ, (deep breath) 
it might (IMHO) be useful to include the recent posts on books. Is anybody
willing to make a summary?

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV  (I'm posting from my own account, but not the preferred one)
        "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is a War Room!"
from _Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb_
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Maj. Tremain's MoH (was Re: Aiming at flagbearers.)
Summary: Story od Maj. H. Tremain at Resaca.
Keywords: Medal of Honor, friendly fire, H. Tremain
Date: 5 Sep 92 04:17:56 GMT
Reply-To: cowan@anl.gov
Followup-To: alt.war.civil.usa
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab

In article <Bu0Jy2.EE2@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
>>
> 
> Lots of stuff deleted about officers.
> 
> Some particularly brave or foolish officers deliberately did things that
> made them conspicuous in battle. Riding a white horse, having a lot of
> [stuff deleted]
> 
> There is a really great Ambrose Bierce short story (Beirce was a US CW
> vet) about just a dashing young officer in the whole 9 yards of dashing
> young officer regalia, who reveals a hidden CS position by suicidally
> riding between the lines and drawing fire.
> 

This reminds me of the true story of Maj. Henry Tremain. He was a
senior aide to several corps commanders, starting with Sickles, then
with Hooker and Butterfield in Tennessee. In the confusion of battle
at Resaca, two Union forces began exchanging "friendly fire". Tremain
and others realized what was happening and attempted to stop it, but
in the din of battle they were unable to make themselves understood,
so Tremain rode between the two Union lines. Each of the sides held
their fire, not wanting to shoot their own officer (but fully
expecting the opposing "Confederates" to finish him). When the lines
realized the other side was also withholding fire, the error was
evident to all. This always stuck me as both incredibly brave *AND*
incredibly clever. (I sort of suspect it wouldn't work in today's
army.) Tremain received a Medal of Honor (well deserved IMHO). 

> The opening scenes of Dances with Wolves are almost a direct rip-off of
> this short story.
> 

Didn't see it.

> I won't reveal the end of the story because the story is well worth
> reading, as are all of Beirces ACW short stories.
> 
> Have fun,
> 
> Tom

Yeah, I like Bierce too.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV   (I'm posting from my own account, but not the preferred one)
        "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is a War Room!"
from _Dr. Strangelove: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb_
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: gcv2010@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Reply-To: gcv2010@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:17:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.193628.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu>, cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan) writes:
>In article <9SEP199216143981@vxcrna.cern.ch>, casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>> In article <1992Sep8.221013.1205@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au>, whijv2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (WHITAKER JASON) writes...
>>>I was wondering if any novels have been based on the Civil War?
>>> 
How about Gore Vidal's "Lincoln"?  I started it, got about 100 pages into it,
and then classes started and it was due back at the library.  I'll pick it up
again, I'm sure.  Vidal made the characters seem alive;  it puts a
different spin on the ACW (for me, anyhow) when Lincoln teases his wife about
her vanity;  when John Hay cruises the bordellos;  etc.

My $.02,
Cheryl

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:17:54 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.221013.1205@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> whijv2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (WHITAKER JASON) writes:
>I was wondering if any novels have been based on the Civil War?

There's also _Andersonville_, by McKinley Kantor.  It's a fictionalized
account of Andersonville, with main characters including prisoners and
locals who lived in the area.  Highly recommended.

Joe Dzikiewicz