From: djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: Value of Attitude (Re: Value of Stats)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:02:29 GMT

>>In article <1992Jul27.191740.21143@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> sinhaa@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Anand Sinha) writes:

>>2 games is kind of a small portion of time to judge a player.  Look at his 
>>stats that year.  They arn't that great.
>
>Hmm..I didn't want to bring stats into this, but since you asked:
>
>YR     G   AB  H  2B  3B  HR  R  RBI  AVG  OBP  SLG
>
>84    159 606 177 39  4  26  85  87  .292 .326 .498
>85    157 607 167 28  6  28  87  95  .275 .327 .479
>86    159 641 198 38  6  31 101 108  .309 .349 .532
>87    156 610 188 32  4  47 111 134  .308 .352 .605
>88    156 614 165 27  5  24  78  97  .269 .304 .446
>89    153 613 182 41  2  18  88 104  .297 .330 .458
>90    142 562 149 25  0  21  67  86  .265 .303 .422
>
>His '88 stats aren't as good as his '86 or '87 stats, but fall closer into
>line with his 85 and 84 numbers.  How much of this was because of not getting
>along with Williams? How much was affected since he wanted to show that he was
>a decent defensive OF that he concentrated on his defense?  Or did he "dog it"
>when he was DHing so that they'd put him back in the field? Or did he have
>some injury that he was keeping quiet about so it would not affect
>the team's chemistry?  Besides George Bell who really knows?

Or some injury he kept quiet so he could keep playing.  It would have been 
better that he made the injury (if he had one) public so the fans would
(maybe) understand why he wasn't playing as good.  I think that the stats
show that he let the problems with media, fans and manager affect his play.
If he didn't let it affect his play he would have been more valuable to his
team.

>>He may have been a team player in the Clubhouse he may not have been.  By
>>most of the media reports I heard was he had a problem with Junoir Felix,
>>and they are both elswhere now.  Coincidence?  Probably not. 
>
>Maybe, maybe not. Junior Felix's attitude problems are not at issue here.  
>From what *I* remember, Bell was getting on Felix because Junior did not
>give his all for the team.  Because Felix was concerned more about himself
>than the team.  Hmm..sounds like Bell was trying to be a team motivator...
>
True.  I will agree with you on this.  Was Bell a team motivator.  I would
say he probably was.  

>The fact that he was the 3rd best OF in '89 *is* important. But I'll leave
>that issue.  
>
>If the Jays had respected George Bell as a player, the management should have
>contacted Bell privately about moving to DH, instead of making a public
>announcement about it.

We don't know that they didn't.  But for this I will assume that they didn't.

>Why is it ok for the management to have done this, but
>not Bell? Sure it would have been better for Bell to speak privately with 
>management about the move.  Management used the media to dictate to Bell the
>actions that they were going to take.  The first question that the media asked
>Bell was about the move to DH, not about whether or not the Jays could win it
>all in '88, not about whether or not he could repeat as MVP, but about the
>move to DH.  George was being himself and honestly gave his opinion on the 
>subject.  With the media hounding him, what was Bell to do?  Even if he said,
>"I plan to discuss the move with Jimy", the press would have taken that
>to mean he meant to confront Williams.  So George is in a no-win situation.

He could have done what Winfield did this year.  He could have said "I would
like to play the outfield, and I still think that I can play the outfield, 
but if the management thinks it is better for me to DH then I will have to
accept it."  This would have kept the problem out of the media.  A good team
player would accept it.", and then show the team that it wasn't a good move in
spring training.  In spring training he could have shown the team that he can
still play adequite defense and be the third best defensive outfielder on the
team.

>Hmm. how do you *know* he didn't complain? Wait for the next Blue Jays Banter
>when they talk to him. :-)  As for why *I* boo Carter? It's because I think
>he is vastly overrated, hurts the team more than he helps them, should not
>be batting #3 in the order, etc.  Sorry but that's my personal opinion of him.
>(I won't bring stats in as usual).

Ok.  It is still a little early to tell if he complained or not but I don't
think he did or will.  Why do you think that he hurts the team?

>Maybe Winfield should do the right thing for the team and refuse to play OF?
>Oh no, that wouldn't make him a team player.  
>
>I guess what's in question here is : What makes a team player?
>In your opinion (from what I've gathered so far), a team player is one who
>plays hard, has fun, and does what the manager asks whether or not it helps
>the team to win.
>
>In my opinion a team player is one who plays hard, does his best to help the 
>team win, and if necessary challenge a decision if it is not going to help 
>the team.

No.  I agree with you.  Winfield doesn't refuse to play the outfield because
he thinks that he can still play adequite defense.  I just don't think that
a player should challenge a managers decision through the media.

>Aha. So why should Bell have respected the management over the DH decision?  
>Why should he have done the "respectful" thing and talked privately to the
>management, when they didn't do the same with him?  We both agree that
>a player should be respected by his management, and if he's not, then he 
>does not have to show respect for them.  Then why do you feel that Bell
>should have respected the Blue Jays management over the move to DH decision?
>They did not respect him, did not talk with him privately, but used
>the media to announce the decision. 

I am not saying he should have respected them as much as I am saying it would
have been much better if he did.

>As for Winfield, when he was with the Yankees, he often used the media
>to attack Steinbrenner, as Steinbrenner did to him.  He was often portrayed
>as a surly, moody individual.  So was Joe Carter during his time in 
>Cleveland and his one year in San Diego.  Why was Carter traded from 2 teams
>after he put up 100 RBI seasons? Could he have been a bad clubhouse influence?
>*shrug* I don't know either.

Well, Cleveland was building for the future and San Diego was filling up holes
in the lineup at first and short.  In both cases he was traded for good talent
and I believe for good reasons.  I don't see him as a problem in the clubhouse.

>
>Anand Sinha 
>Jays #1 -> all the way in '92
>Robbie Alomar for MVP 			Jeff Kent for ROTY
>Sarah Sinha for MVP 2009 		Sarah Sinha for ROTY 2009
>Juan Guzman for Cy Young
>

--David Johnson