HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Re: Right Not to Support
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 12:20:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.163331.28091@iplmail.orl.mmc.com> steveg@iplmail.orl.mmc.com (Steve Gabrilowitz) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.141631.10114@ll.mit.edu>, yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>
>|> >A lot of people are car mechanics, and don't say why they are. Most of the
>|> >time, it just doesn't come up. The same is true, I think, of people who
>|> >have expertise in family law. Some learned through experience, some through
>|> >study, and others through both.
>|> >
>|> 
>|> 	Not a good comparison.  This is not a car repair newsgroup.
>|> 	If I gave you advice about your car, you might ask, "Gee,
>|> 	are you a mechanic?"  If I said, "No, I just read books",
>|> 	or something, you wouldn't think much of my opinions.
>
>But there is a flaw in your analogy Alan.  A much better one would be if you ask
>"Gee, are you a mechanic" and I reply "No, I am not a licensed mechanic but I did`
>graduate from automotive repair school".  What would you think of my opinion then?
>
	You're probably right.  But don't miss my point.  When 2 people
	enter a debate, they usually "put their cards on the table",
	same as a person selling something embelishes their credentials
	or the value of their product to the "Nth", to get a head
	start.

	Yes, a car mechanic has nothing to do with the conversation.
	But credentials, weather possessed through experience or study,
	are always worn on one's sleeve.

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,soc.women
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Shooting in the Courthouse: Why?
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 04:24:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.131512.8740@ll.mit.edu> yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>	A man who walks into a courtroom for a divorce is no more than
>	a common criminal with no rights.

Which is why, on average, men's standard of living improves after divorce,
while women's standard of living declines.

Is that Thelma and Louise I see gun-toting in the courthouse?
-- 
             ......................................................
             ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu | std disclaimers
             the university of chicago law skool, chicago, illinois
             it's log!  log!  log!  it's big, it's heavy, it's wood
From: bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: How do you find the right attorney?
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:35:41 GMT
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

dirbze@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:

> OK, folks... just a quick interruption from the ongoing debate(s) for a
> question.  How do I go about finding a good, competent attorney who understan
> the father's rights issues, child support issues, and visitation issues?  Rig
> now the visitation issues are most important, but the current words in the
> decree need changing, and I might as well fix it all while I'm at it.  I've
> been through the yellow pages... I've gone through four attorneys over the la
> three-and-a-half years... the local Attorneys' Referral Service hands out the
> same names over and over (without comment on qualifications)... there has to 
> a better way...  ideas, anyone?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rick Sorensen

Hi Rick!

Boy, what a question! Locating an attorney appropriate to your case is
(as you've apparently discovered) one of the hardest things there is to
do.

Referral Services usually just hand out names of lawyers who've asked
for the service. Sometimes, there will be 'specializations' mentioned,
but, who knows what that means?

IMO about the best route is to talk to other people who've been divorced
or through a modification. Ask about their attorney. Don't limit your-
self to asking men, ask the ladies too.

See if you can strike up an aquaintence in the court system. Many of the
clerks know of the attorneys, their records and attitudes. They can be a
BIG help. Normally, they're pretty closed mouthed --too many of them
burned for giving out legal 'advice.' But on this subject, they seem to
be more open. If possible, get them when they aren't behind the counter.

Sometimes the state bar associations can shed some light --although they
won't say much for one attorney over another, sometimes in relating the
attorneys who specialize they'll have a comment attached that might be
helpful. Some of them won't say a word, instead referring you to a ref-
erral service. But, it never hurts to ask.

Finally, there is the consultations many attorneys offer free to prosp-
ective clients. In this time, you can ask a lot of questions which may
help you to decide if you wnat this one or that.

All in all, finding an attorney that's good 'for you' is a matter of
pure luck --but if you put some time and ingenuity into it, you can
get pretty close without it. 

Hope this helps you.
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.men,soc.women,misc.kids
From: sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Impact of the absent father
Organization: my opinions only
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:27:20 GMT

In article <10453@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) writes:
>Not sent to alt.dads-rights because I don't get it
>
>In article <1992Aug26.223358.14507@fid.morgan.com> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
>>The study was of "math and reading skills", which are usually measured
>>by results on standardized tests.  If the "emotional trauma" had
>>affected the children's math and reading skills, it would have been
>>detected.
>
>And why should it?  Or, at least, why should it affect math and reading skills
>monotonically?

I'm not saying it should; I'm saying that criticizing a study of math
and reading skills because it fails to detect emotional traumas is (at
best) inappropriate.

Seth		sethb@fid.morgan.com
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights
From: morgana@infonode.ingr.com (Angela Morgan)
Subject: Fair?? (was Re: Abandoment is not same as Adoption)
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:32:06 GMT

king@meaddata.com (Mike King) writes:

>Like every man alive, I to, would like to have some say in what
>happens to my child before it's born.  Would I put it up for adoption,
>keep it, abort it, or forget about it.  Unfair or not that decision is
>not in my hands.  Would I like it to be?  Yes.  So long...flame away.

Are you saying that you favor taking that control away from the woman
and putting it in the hands of the man?  That's what it sounds like you're
saying....

Is that what you think is *fair*?!?!  Oh well, if you do, I guess you
simply join the ranks of millions of men who have twisted and warped
definitions of "equality" and "fairness".

[I realize, of course, that many women also have pretty twisted definitions
of fairness and equality, but I'm not one of them.]

I'm so sick of all the whining and bellyaching that I hear on this group,
I feel like starting a new group called alt.ncp.woman.  Even though I'm
in the same boat as all you ncp men (I'm the ncp, I've been raked over
the coals by the system, I pay a large part of my salary in child support,
etc., etc.), I feel practically *nothing* in common with any of you.

Maybe this group should be renamed alt.ncp.man.whine, and we should start
the new hierarchy alt.family-law, as has been mentioned before.  Just
about anything would be more productive than this group has been lately.

--angela

_________________________________________________________________________
|                              |                                        |
|  Angela Morgan, NSS 24044    |  UUCP: ...uunet!ingr!infonode!morgana  |
|  Intergraph Corporation      |  INTERNET: morgana@infonode.ingr.com   |
|  Mailstop LR23A2             |  205/730-8324, FAX 205/730-8300        |
|  Huntsville, AL  35894       |  "Real cavers don't have suntans."     |
|______________________________|________________________________________|
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,soc.men,soc.women
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: The Majority are "In Contempt"
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:59:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.225441.19152@u.washington.edu> hamton@byron.u.washington.edu (MrEuStress) writes:
)Alan Yasutovich writes
)> > >. . .the Census Bureau says half of the mothers with a 
)> > > child support order get full payment 
)> > LESS THAN HALF (43%) of court ordered CS is paid in full!
)> . . . then almost half of men with court ordered child support
)> pay the whole thing . . . Your figures are no
)> different than those posted by Rick Lang.
)
)  He said "half"
)  You say "almost half"
)  I say "less than half".
)
)  57% are in contempt of court (like me) -- 
)  The * * *  M A J O R I T Y  * * * are in contempt.
)
)  If the majority of credicard holders
)  defaulted on their loans -- 
)  you'd hear about it more.

Not exactly.

There are two methodological issues here - how payment rates are determined,
and what 'full support' means.

The Census Bureau figures are based only on asking the mother.  (Not the
NCP, because the Census Bureau doesn't have any figures for men.)

You do get different answers if you ask the fathers.  That's point one.

The 50% figure is for total 'on-time' and 'complete payment'.  If the father 
were a day late with one payment, he'd qualify for the 50% of
'not-totally-paid' fathers according to the methodology used.  That's
point two.

50% of the men are *not* in contempt of court.  In fact, about 75% or so
pay support regularly.  (This is still based only on the mothers response to
a suvey - I believe that other survey data based on fathers' claims indicate
that they claim to pay support regularly 90% of the time, and the truth is
probably somewhere in between.)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.men,soc.women,alt.abortion.inequity
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: children as appe (1)
X-To: LINDA HILL
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:13:00 GMT

Linda Hill writes...  (why she agrees in Pro-Male and Pro-Female Choice...)
LH> My husband thinks this attitude is appalling (especially coming from an avow
LH> feminist) because it places no responsibility whatsoever on the man.  The ma
LH> is free to hop in and out of the sack willy nilly without a care in the worl
LH> I think that this is pretty much the way of the wild and that the human spec
LH> will never be so evolved that the majority of males can intelligently contro
LH> their sex drives.

Hmmm....I agree with K'Char here ...  Although I agree with your being 'Pro-
Choice' in the truest, all-inclusive sense, I disagree with your assertion
that it forces all the responsibility on women, while men are free to "hop
in an out of the sack willy nilly".

As things are currently, a man *cannot* do such a thing without fear of a
paternity suit, but a woman theoretically *can*, because if she becomes
unwillingly pregnant, she can, err, "use her choice".

So, when "Choice" *is* extended to men as well, please do not be so unaware of
the fact that men will *not* be the only ones without enforced responsibility.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch!
Xref: sparky alt.child-support:2943 soc.men:15573 soc.women:15869 misc.kids:22071
From: pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.men,soc.women,misc.kids
Subject: Re: Impact of the absent father
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:23:30 GMT
Reply-To: pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Followup-To: alt.child-support
Organization: Florida State University

In article <1992Aug27.162720.23466@fid.morgan.com> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
>
>I'm not saying it should; I'm saying that criticizing a study of math
>and reading skills because it fails to detect emotional traumas is (at
>best) inappropriate.

It certainly is appropriate when the study is sold as saying more, as it
certainly is here.  If you go back and look at the original article, you will
see a number of general claims.  It is blithely going from a specific finding
to a general claim that I am criticizing.

-EMP
From: dirbze@doc.bmd.trw.com
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: How do you find the right attorney?
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:03:07 MST

OK, folks... just a quick interruption from the ongoing debate(s) for a
question.  How do I go about finding a good, competent attorney who understands
the father's rights issues, child support issues, and visitation issues?  Right
now the visitation issues are most important, but the current words in the
decree need changing, and I might as well fix it all while I'm at it.  I've
been through the yellow pages... I've gone through four attorneys over the last
three-and-a-half years... the local Attorneys' Referral Service hands out the
same names over and over (without comment on qualifications)... there has to be
a better way...  ideas, anyone?

Thanks,

Rick Sorensen
Xref: sparky alt.child-support:2955 alt.dads-rights:2129 ba.general:3579 ba.seminars:553
From: shedevil@vix.com (Anne P. Mitchell JD)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,ba.general,ba.seminars
Subject: September Meeting of the Fathers' Rights & Equality Exchange
Date: 27 Aug 1992 09:47:16 -0700
Organization: Fathers' Rights & Equality Exchange
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: gw.home.vix.com


The September meeting of Bay Area/FREE will be held on Wednesday,
September 9th, at 7pm, at our Santa Clara location [please email for
directions if you need them].

During this meeting we will be watching a video produced and
distributed by the Law Offices of Clancy & Firpo.  For those of you
not familiar with them, Clancy and Firpo practice out of Walnut Creek
and have recently gained recognition for being zealous advocates of
men on the receiving end of allegations of sexual abuse [which
is often a tactic taken by women during divorce and custody
disputes].

The video puports to be approximately 95% education, and 5% promotional.

We have received permission to copy and distribute this video, if we
so choose.  With this in mind, I am hoping that we can have an honest
dicussion and evaluation after the video, discussing the merits of the
video itself, and whether we would like to distribute it and to whom.

Please try to attend this meeting, as the more eyes and input we have,
the better we can evaluate the information contained in the video, and
the video itself.

Please be sure to rsvp to me, and also if you'd like to volunteer to
bring cookies or some other dessert, please let me know.

Anne
-- 
   LOOKING FOR:  David Widdicombe, Hobson Woodward, Lorna Taylor & JJ Lancey
I am: Anne Mitchell, mom, & founder of the Fathers' Rights & Equality Exchange
Ask me about FREE!  FREE files available via anonymous ftp 128.45.1.1; dir /pub
			DE STELLA MARTIS VERE VENISTI
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: mstrange@alfred.carleton.ca (N E N Strangelove)
Subject: moderated?
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:47:31 GMT

Ma name is Natalie Strangelove, and I compiling a directory of
networked resources for social work studies. I would like to include
alt.child-support in the directory. I need a *brief* description of
the newsgroup and need to know if it is moderated.

Thanks in advance,

Natalie Strangelove

PS\ Please email me directly, as I am not subscribed to this newsgroup.

Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.men,soc.women,alt.abortion.inequity
From: hamton@byron.u.washington.edu (MrEuStress)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: The Majority are "In Contempt"
Date: 25 Aug 92 22:54:41 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Washington

Alan Yasutovich writes
> > >. . .the Census Bureau says half of the mothers with a 
> > > child support order get full payment 
> > LESS THAN HALF (43%) of court ordered CS is paid in full!
> . . . then almost half of men with court ordered child support
> pay the whole thing . . . Your figures are no
> different than those posted by Rick Lang.

  He said "half"
  You say "almost half"
  I say "less than half".

  57% are in contempt of court (like me) -- 
  The * * *  M A J O R I T Y  * * * are in contempt.

  If the majority of credicard holders
  defaulted on their loans -- 
  you'd hear about it more.
From: ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:39:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Equal Male Rights
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: alt.child-support

> I always believed that, for some reason I can't fully explain, marriages
> broke up some time around the birth of a child.

Mine did, about four years later, but it stemmed from the stresses of
child-rearing added to an already inflexible, unbalanced relationship
(that worked "well enough" beforehand).

However, I have met many many divorced people in the last four years and
that situation is surprisingly rare.  Much more often the divorce
happens before kids, or after they have been around 5-10 years (or
more), and for unrelated reasons.  I have no theory as to why that is,
beyond the obvious "having children brings people together as a team" --
not true in my case.
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,soc.women
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Re: Shooting in the Courthouse: Why?
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 11:58:50 GMT

In article <BtM0oy.8Fy@cs.psu.edu> beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.042447.14746@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.131512.8740@ll.mit.edu> yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>>>	A man who walks into a courtroom for a divorce is no more than
>>>	a common criminal with no rights.
>>
>>Which is why, on average, men's standard of living improves after divorce,
>>while women's standard of living declines.
>
>Define "standard of living."  Do you count dollars, houses, cars?

	Doesn't it have something to do with "dollars to dounuts"
-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Xref: sparky alt.child-support:2891 alt.dads-rights:2088 soc.men:15462 soc.women:15746
From: peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: LESS THAN HALF (43%) of court ordered CS is paid in full!
Date: 25 Aug 92 20:33:42 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

hamton@byron.u.washington.edu (MrEuStress) writes:

>  If the government wants to keep the kids in a "good" lifestyle
>  then THEY -- not some slave -- must pay for it THEMSELVES.

Just exactly who is the "THEY" to whom you refer?
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,soc.men,soc.women
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Re: The Majority are "In Contempt"
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 11:52:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.225441.19152@u.washington.edu> hamton@byron.u.washington.edu (MrEuStress) writes:
>Alan Yasutovich writes
>> > >. . .the Census Bureau says half of the mothers with a 
>> > > child support order get full payment 
>> > LESS THAN HALF (43%) of court ordered CS is paid in full!
>> . . . then almost half of men with court ordered child support
>> pay the whole thing . . . Your figures are no
>> different than those posted by Rick Lang.
>
>  He said "half"
>  You say "almost half"
>  I say "less than half".
>
>  57% are in contempt of court (like me) -- 
>  The * * *  M A J O R I T Y  * * * are in contempt.
>
>  If the majority of credicard holders
>  defaulted on their loans -- 
>  you'd hear about it more.

	And 25% of others pay part.  That's 75%.

  The * * *  M A J O R I T Y  * * * are NOT in contempt.

	"Contempt" means willful disregard.

	What's the point about credit cards?  We aren't hearing
	enough about support?



-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,soc.women
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: Shooting in the Courthouse: Why?
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:22:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.042447.14746@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.131512.8740@ll.mit.edu> yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>>	A man who walks into a courtroom for a divorce is no more than
>>	a common criminal with no rights.
>
>Which is why, on average, men's standard of living improves after divorce,
>while women's standard of living declines.

Define "standard of living."  Do you count dollars, houses, cars?

Perhaps if there were a way to measure kisses, hugs, and 
"Mommy"'s or "Daddy"'s from the children, there might be 
a different statistic.  

>Is that Thelma and Louise I see gun-toting in the courthouse?

They have no need; they have lawyers and a sexist system to "protect" them.
Would T&L (or any PARENT) have been so "reckless" if they'd had
kids to take care of or to lose?

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
From: ssmith@xocolatl.com (Shannon Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Paternity suit vindication?
Date: 29 Aug 92 17:10:49 GMT
Reply-To: ssmith@xocolatl.com
Organization: Amethyst Systems, Fremont, CA

kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse) writes:

-> In alt.child-support, ssmith@xocolatl.com (Shannon Smith) writes:
-> 
-> > Oops...that was intended to be email for my kids' father, not wasted
-> > bandwidth for the group.  
-> 
-> Hmmm..... Do I detect a recurring theme here? One person making mistakes
-> (ie having kids and wasting bandwidth) and making other people paying for tho
-> mistakes (ie a forced father and the network)? Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe 
-> someone could benefit from some soul searching. Sorry if I made this point 
-> at your expense, Shannon.

An interesting point, but the analogy doesn't fly.

One person made the mistake of posting email.

As far as having kids, it took two of us to tango.  And it's a far
far more complicated situation than agonizing over whether to waste
bandwidth with an apology or use bandwidth with an apology.

---
Shannon Smith                     ssmith@xocolatl.com
From: woody@wolves.uucp (Woody Muller)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Impact of the absent father
Date: 29 Aug 92 14:46:27 GMT
Organization: Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC
X-Md4-Signature: 3fce005ed811052bac99f4f6a33e8644

>"We need to get mothers better educated and boost income, because it's
>this rather than having a father at home that affects kids the most."

Perhaps the courts are doing these kids a disservice by awarding custody
to the mother, if the mother is the less financially capable parent.

-- 
woody@wolves.durham.nc.us
"Nothing in human affairs is worth any great anxiety."  -Plato
Xref: sparky alt.child-support:2910 alt.dads-rights:2103