From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: ...Greek Haircuts Are Consumed Only By Residents Of Greece, 'Tri*.'
Date: 13 Apr 92 07:02:00 GMT


<199204121327.AA21228@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com>
c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)

>>  [...] Therefore, it would be more suitable to make a comparison
>>  between Turkiye and, say, Greece, who share the same democratic values,
>>  rather than the Southeast Asian countries, to highlight what Turkiye
>>  accomplished within a short span of time. Fair enough, 'Spiros?'

>Fair enough. Greece is not in Asia, has a different economy
>than Turkiye, does not share Turkiye's 'democratic' values, etc. 

Wow. There might well be a few other countries who may have scored
almost similar successes, albeit not in this magnitude. However,
they were denied the privilege of being classified in the same
category. They are mostly unreported, even overlooked, Turkiye
among them. Greece? Well...

>>  Why not quote the original article posted on the subject, then?

>reading the text quoted han>, one would get the idea that 'Spiros' is a
>habitual out of context paraphrasing S.O.B. The facts remain that this was
>my first ever serious attempt at dialog with you in this forum, EVER.
>Your statements imply that I have done this in the past to you on a more
>or less constant way ("han>, your habit of editing my article in such a
>way as to leave you han> with straw man arguments to knock down"), while
>the truth is that this is the first time I have ever responded to one of
>your messages. Fair enough, 'habitual victim' ???

Nope. Again, you have failed to quote your original article. Instead 
of wasting your time by your unsubstantiated claims, why not quote your
original article? You are not assisting in finding a solution if you 
disseminate this sort of one-sided rhetoric.

>>  >Impressive. From what base, i.e. what is the GNP per capita? My figures
>>  >said $1300 in 1987, so in three years (1990) it's around $1700.
>>  
>>  Nope. One should utilize the 'average output per person in dollars adjusted
>>  to PPP.'

>Let me see if i understand this correctly. Is average output per person
>in dollars adjusted to PPP something meaning that a Greek and a Turk have
>the same purchasing power within their respective economies and countries?

Close enough. Research on international price-level differences has
uncovered empirical regularity: when expressed in terms of a single
currency, countries' price levels are positively related to the level
of real income per capita. Do you know why price levels are lower in 
some countries? In the summer of 1986, the 'Economist' magazine 
conducted an extensive survey on the prices of Big Mac hamburgers
at McDonald's restaurants throughout the world. Have you read the
survey results?

>If this is how I read it, could you explain the difference in things like
>car registrations, TV ownership, telephones, airline miles travelled,
>number of airports, etc that, presumably, since they are purchased with
>salaries which adjust to be the same, should be similar for each country.

Not at all. When trade barriers and imperfectly competitive market 
structures occur together, linkages between national price levels
are weakened. An extreme case occurs when a single firm sells a 
commodity for different prices in different markets. For instance, 
the prices of Mercedes-Benz autos were higher in the United States 
than in Germany in the mid-1980s. Namely, government measures of 
the price levels differ from country to country. One reason for 
these differences is that people living in different countries 
spend their income in different ways. The average Italian
consumes more olive oil than her American counterpart, the average
Japanese more sushi, and the average French woman more croissants.
In addition, price indexes for tradable goods actually show that
tradables as well as nontradables tend to be cheaper in some
countries.

>Please do not quote Prof. Unknown from Faraway State University, just a
>SIMPLE answer to the following simple statement:

Please don't interrupt yourself unintentionally. Krugman, Obstfeld, 
Huizinga, Mishkin, Balassa, Samuelson, Kravis, Lipsey,.. 

>	if (ppp_Greece == ppp_Turkiye) {
>		num_phones_per_capita(Gr) == num_phones_per_capita(Tu);
>		num_cars_per_capita(Gr) == num_cars_per_capita(Tu);
>    		num_doctors_per_capita(Gr) == num_doctors_per_capita(Tu);
>		average_energy_per_capita(Gr) == average_energy_per_cap(Tu);
>		average_age(Gr) = average_age(Tu);
>		literacy_rate(Gr) = literacy_rate(Tu)
>	}		

>Is the statement above accurate or not? But I think I know the answer...

Now that you mention it, considering the argument that you have raised,
I am indeed forced to conclude that I do not have a very high opinion
of your intelligence. Or were you just having a gloomy day? Think about
it; whether a country is rich or poor, a barber can give only so many
haircuts in a week, but there may be significant scope for productivity
differences across countries in the manufacture of traded goods like
personal computers. The Turkish haircuts are consumed only by residents
of Turkiye while Greek haircuts are consumed only by residents of
Greece. For instance, the Balassa-Samuelson theory assumes that 
the labor forces of some countries are less productive than those
of other countries in the tradable sector, but that international
productivity differences in nontradables are negligible. Nontradables,
which consist largely of services, are naturally labor-intensive
relative to tradables. Because labor is cheaper in some countries
and is used intensively in producing nontradables. Once again, this
international difference in the relative price of nontradables 
suggests that overall price levels, when measured in a single 
currency, should be higher in some countries than in others.

>>  This one was pretty miserable. Greece has never witnessed the speedy
>>  population growth, since its population remained almost the same as
>>  it was in the 1960s. Indeed, the population of Greece increased by one
>>  million only over the last three decades while Turkiye's population has
>>  doubled in the same period. You have deserved to have a cup of Turkish
>>  coffee.

>If I read this correctly, Turkiye's per capita figures suffer because of a
>population explosion over the last 30 years. That means that your country,
>despite its industrialization, tremendous economic growth rate, planning,
>etc has not been able to keep up with demand in providing education,
>health care, or even telephones.

Wrong. Turkiye's per capita figures do not suffer because of a 
population explosion over the last 30 years. Greece and Turkiye are
in the same category. Hard to swallow?

>Let me rephrase that. Greece & Turkiye are compared to two families just
>starting out, with the same incomes (PPP :-). Family number 1 makes one
>child (and maybe not even that) and family number 2 makes 6, while #2's
>income grows by a bit more than #1's income. (or in case of PPP, is same)
>Would you care to guess which family will succeed at the end? No industrial
>society I am aware of can get away with 3.4% population growth rates. It
>is simply not possible. If that was not a problem, why would countries like
>China or India promote (with different means) population control methods? 

Because their GNP growth rates are lower than their population growth 
rates, 'Spiros.' Of central concern to macroeconomic analysis is a
country's GNP, the value of all final goods and services produced by
its factors of production and sold on the market in a given time
period. Do you know what the GNP growth rate is for Turkiye?
Turkiye, notwithstanding the high population growth, has been 
able to achieve a sustained growth rate not less than 6 percent 
over the last decade.

>I can not imagine what the population growth rate would be if health care
>was more available, infant mortality was reduced and life spans improved.

Trivial issues compared to a sustained growth rate in GNP.

>>  One should be proud of Turkiye's competitive position in ceramics,
>>  processed food, tourism, textiles, unprocessed food/fruit, contracting,
>>  livestock, leather products, glass, rubber, ship building, petrochemicals,
>>  cement, iron and steel. Fair enough?

>If the average citizen can't afford them or because of the aphrodisiac
>qualities of Turkish food the population has exploded and demand outruns
>supply by a few orders of magnitude what good does it do to the average
>Turk? That he has a job making these products for export at $0.19/hour?

You have a looong way to go. Let me offer you an excellent reference to
further improve this one for you. 

'When The Machine Stopped - A Cautionary Tale From Industrial America' by
Max Holland. Harvard Business School Press, 1989. ISBN 0-87584-244-5.

>I just got ahold of a copy of detailed world auto production data by
>factory, country, and model.  There are many car/tractor factories in
>Turkiye, 15 or so. Yet car output was something like 100,000 cars a year.
>For all models. That translates to maybe 10,000 cars a year from a single
>plant. Basic cars i.e. Otosan Taunus 1600 GL, 1960's vintage.  me on this.
>...low volumes. And don't defend it by saying it is still the beginning.  
>Most cars made in Turkiye are older than I am. 

You live with illusions. Why not visit Turkiye and see for yourself?

>>  deficit, it is highly probable that Greece will see itself constrained
>>  to ask creditor countries to reschedule its foreign debts which
>>  doubled during the tenure of 'Papandreou.'

>Gee, he now quotes names of real persons. I can't argue with that 
>unfortunately. How come you did not quote Paparabilek's (sp?) name earlier?

Where have you been? 

>>  They are witnessing and enjoying a real miracle.

>Or they are not living long enough due to lack of medical care
>(see average life spans of Gr/Tu, relate with average health care stats).

Then try 'two and a half yogurtlu doner kebap.' Key institutions of 
the society, from sports to politics, are governed by a bright and
superbly-trained generation in their early forties, and in some
cases, even in their thirties. Jealous?

>>  But, Turkiye, notwithstanding the high population growth, has
>>  been able to achieve a sustained growth rate not less than 6
>>  percent over the last decade. The speedy population growth
>>  may provide some small scale advantages as well.

>More China-style labor? Can you match China's $0.19/day wages?

What a joker. The Greek people can always sweep the debris of the
economy aside and resume the march to economic freedom. For seven
decades the Soviets had no problem in defining who they were. They
ended up with one party but empty store shelves and an archaic 
society trailing the West by 30 years in every aspect. Sounds 
familiar?

>>  >> 11. Average annual growth rate of urban population: 3.4%
>>  
>>  >Nothing to be proud of.
>>  
>>  I am forced to disagree.

>No developed country has population growth rates that come close to 3.4%.
>What will you do with all the Young Turks?  Will you need 'vital space'?

'A sustained growth rate not less than 6 percent over the last decade.'
Got it?

>>  >> 12. Urban population as a share of total population: 47%
>>  
>>  >Hmmm. Same as in Greece. Nothing to be proud of.
>>  
>>  Your opinion; hardly fact.

>The slums of Mexico City, Bombay, New Delhi, Instambul, or Cairo are 
>a hard 'fact' that all Urban Newcomers encounter upon arrival.

Is this a figment of your imagination or a Greek propaganda movie
script? Don't confuse Istanbul, Izmir and Ankara with Greek cities.
Turkish society has passed the Rubicon in the 80's.

>>  It is so nonsensical. The sectors, at which Turkiye is aiming, are as
>>  follows: Processed food, electrical machines, optical measuring
>>  devices, plastic materials, packaging and pressing, wood products
>>  and paper, production of electronic inputs, development of the
>>  financial sector, production of design, ship building and disassembly.
>>  Have you ever heard of the 'Southeast Anatolia Project?'

>You have not answered the question. Quite normal for you. How many
>'optical measuring devices' (tape measures :-)??) for a hospital bed?

Enough to build her own destroyers, submarines, aircrafts, ECM and
ECCM devices.

>>  You have been arguing with yourself; the issue was to become competitive
>>  in world markets.

>At the expense of quality / duration of living? Didn't they try that in
>China.... 

No, they tried it in Japan. Are you for real?

>And you still have not explained how a 'developed' country has
>such low figures for life expectancy, health care availability..

Because there is no correlation between those factors; look at 
x-Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Syria, etc. If not anything else, the 
economic factors show how dynamic, multi-faceted and non-monolithic a 
society Turkiye is. And you have a long way to catch up with her.

>>  >Number of TV's, VCR's, phones, airline passenger miles, ..... ???????
>>  
>>  Today, there are more than one million color TV units in the country.

>There's more than that in Greece, at 6 times less size. 

No wonder Greek economy is in shambles. A bunch of couch potatoes?

>>  More than one million sets are exported yearly, all of them being
>>  produced locally. This is the best evidence of what Turkiye has achieved
>>  in the field of telecommunications.

>Assembling TV's? Or do you make the entire TV (design, chips & tube)??

Believe it or not; the entire TV.

>> I therefore venture to say that Turkiye
>>  is ahead of Greece as far as the television networks and services
>>  are concerned. And all these foregoing achievements have materialized
>>  despite a high population growth.

>Do you have (or plan to) free TV? Radio? Cable TV? CNN? MTV? Satellite TV? 

Yup.

>>  >Now, for the last time, would you comment on this:
>>  >GNP:Greece: $6900Turkey: $1700[1990].
>>  
>>  You don't get it - do you? It is 'meaningless.'

>About as meaningless as numbers of TV's, phones, doctors, hospital
>beds, literacy rates, infant mortality, teachers, vehicles, etc per capita.

You still don't get it - do you? When the shelves in the stores are
empty, the display of TV sets and blusterous speeches do not make
any sense. Hopefully, Greek government will realize that hungry stomachs
ultimately amount to angry throngs.

>>  Do not take life seriously; you will never get out of it alive.

>Do not take soc-culture-* news seriously. You will never get laid. 

No one should have to dance backward all their lives, 'Spiros.'

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)

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