From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Subject: Re: ONOMA TOY NEWSGROUP ! ! !
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:23:08 GMT


rizos@cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou) writes:

>Me aformh to ar0ro toy Alki Argyropoyloy, stalmeno apo ton
>kilitzir@cyprus.csd.uch.gr (Kilitzirakis christos 122), 0a
>h0ela na rwthsw ton apostolea, giati to onoma Greece, Greek, 
>klp. einai "xeftila" kai odhgei se syneirmoys toy typoy 
>"douloi"; Den prokeitai mhpws gia onomasia me arxaiotath
>riza, isws arxaioteri apo to Ellas, den htan o agwnistis toy
>'21 poy elege `Egw Graikos gennithika, Graikos the na pethanw',
>kai den htan oi idioi oi katoikoi toy neosystatoy mikroy 
>basileioy twn arxwn toy perasmenoy aiwna, poy protimoysan na
>onomazontai Graikoi;

Bebaia, den einai h prvth fora poy milav gia ta onomata tvn
Ellhnvn alla den peirazei. 

Ellhnas
Onoma hrva/fylhs apo thn Hpeiro. Xrhsimopoihuhke kata
koron sthn klassikh epoxh apo toys Ellhnes. Perissotero
(akoma kai tote) eixe sxesh me thn koinh apodoxh kapoias 
politikhs kai urhskeytikhs envshs (koino tvn Ellhnvn) para 
me kapoia idea fylhs. Alla den apotelese pote pragmatikh 
politikh ypostash. Thn ellhnistikh epoxh h ennoia Ellhnas
jefeygei apo ta stena plaisia ths klassikhs epoxhs kai
einai pia apokleistika prosdiorismos politistikos. Na
anaferv gia paradeigma oti o Zenon, idryths ths stvikhs
stoas htan Foinikas. Oi kyrioteroi ypeyuynoi gia thn 
ellhnopoihsh ths Mikras Asias htan oi Seleykides, isvs
h monh ellhnistikh dynasteia poy efarmose taktikh paromoia
me toys Rvmaioys. Idrysan ellhnikes poleis, egkatesthsan
syntajioyxoys strativtes. Endiaferoysa epoxh. Prosejte
kai toys Fryges, makrinoys syggeneis tvn Ellhnvn. Hdh
apo poly palia uevroyntan miso-Ellhnes. Me thn idrysh 
ths rvmaikhs aytokratoria h ellhnikothtas ginetai 
apokleistika politistikos prosdiorismos. me ton erxomo
toy xristianismoy xrhsimopoieitai gia na dhlvsei toys
paganistes kai san prosdioristiko tvn Ellhnvn xanei to
nohma toy.

Graikos/Graecus
Proerxetai apo to onoma topikoy hrva mias hpeirvtikhs fylhs. 
Xrhsimopoihuhke kyrivs apo toys Rvmaioys gia na anaferuoyn 
sthn Pelloponhso kai thn Sterea, oi opoies kai apoteloyn 
thn 'akribh' Graecia. Na shmeivuei oti den xrhsimopoihuhke 
pote apo toys arxaioys Ellhnes gia na anaferuoyn syllogika 
stoys eaytoys toys. H prvth tetoia xrhsh ginetai apo toys 
germanolatinoys toy mesaivna gia na anaferuoyn sthn rvmaikh 
aytokratoria san "greek empire" se antidiastolh pros to 
"roman empire". Pragma anagkastiko, mias kai allivs o 
isxyrismos toys gia thn agia rvmaikh aytokratoria toy 
germanikoy eunoys ua emoiaze geloios. Ekei na deite uevries 
gia to pvs oi Ellhnes apvlesan to dikaivma ths rvmaikhs 
klhronomias kai ara perase sto germaniko eunos. Afoy h lejh 
graikos xrhsimopoieitai apo toys fragkolatinoys gia na anaferuoyn
sthn aytokratoria, prosdidoyn se ayton thn antilhch toys
gia toys katoikoys toys kai ginetai enas "derogatory term".
Telika ftanei (16os-18os) na shmainei panoyrgo, dolioploko, 
apatevna.  Rijte mia matia se kanena lejiko ths epoxhs.

Rvmaios/Rvmios
Einai to onoma me to opoio oi progonoi mas anaferotan ston 
eayto toys syllogika gia perissotera apo 2000 xronia. Oi 
rvmaioi tvn prvtvn xronvn ths aytokratorias htan diglvssoi. 
Ston kosmopolismo ths epoxhs den xvroysan "eunikoi" prosdiorismoi.
Oi ellhnikes poleis krath polemhsan metajy toys gia aivnes kai
aivnes, xvris pote na envuoyn. Kai telika htan o Andrianos poy 
telika mporese na envsei tis ellhnikes poleis sto koino tvn 
Ellhnvn Uymyueitai kai ton Marko Ayrhlio poy egrace toys 
dialogismoys toy sta ellhnika. Kai oi dyo bohuhsan thn Auhna
kai htan nomizv isobioi dioikhtes ths(taytoxrona me aytokratores). 
Kai oi Ellhnes gia prvth fora sthn istoria toys zhsan envmenoi.
O ellhnikos politismos sterivse sthn anatolikh mesogeio kai
otan pia h aytokratoria perioristhke sta Balkania kai thn 
Mikra Asia htan toso bauies oi rizes poy aporrofhse eisboleis,
poy epemeine otan kai h aytokratoria xauhke.

BTW, mia ervthsh:
Poios htan o prvtos "Ellhnas"(dhladh apo thn kauayto Ellada, 
Sterea kai Peloponnhso) aytokratoras ths Rvmhs?

Katalabainv oti einai poly arga pia na allajei to onoma
mas. Alla sigoyra den ua elega oti eimai Graikos. H katagvgh 
toy patera moy einai apo ton Ponto, ths manas moy apo thn Krhth, 
gennhuhka kai megalvsa sthn Uessalonikh. Kai apo oso jerv den 
exv kammia riza sthn Graecia. Den katalabainv giati ta Skopia
den mporei na einai Makedonia afoy den htan pote meros ths 
Makedonias kai h Uessalia, Makedonia, Urakh, Krhth, Aigaio
kai Krhth mporei na einai meros ths Greece. Pote den htan
mexri na dhmioyrghuei to ellhniko basileio.

Oso gia to Ellhnas einai ena onoma bgalmeno apo kapoia skonismena 
biblia kai den exei kammia sxesh me thn istoria h tis epidivjeis 
toy laoy mas gia ta teleytaia dyo xiliades xronia. To janauhmhkan 
kapoioi logioi poy epimenan na grafoyn se attikisoyza glvssa liga 
xronia prin pesei h Polh. Kai to 1821 egine oxi gia na idryuei 
"ellhniko" h graikiko kratos alla gia na "genei to rvmaiiko". 
Ayth h mnhmh ths aytokratoria htan poy krathse aytoys poy shmera 
onomazontai Ellhnes kai einai telika to mono syndetiko stoixeio toys. 
Kai h mnhmh egine argotera megalh idea me ola ta kala kai kaka poy 
ayto efere. Oristika isvs peuane meta to 22, opote h mikrh kai entimos 
Ellas gia thn opoia toso pasxizan anurvpoi san aytoys poy uevrhsan kalo 
na sxhmatisoyn agglofila, gallofila kai rvssofila kommata sto neosystato 
ellhniko kratos egine pragmatikothta.

					Xairetv,
					Giannis.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12611 alt.news.macedonia:284