From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: The Ecocentric Criterion (again)
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:01:17 GMT

In article <STEINLY.92Dec15160205@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.222425.17854@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>
>
>   In article <STEINLY.92Dec15130933@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>
>   >I've read Sahlins thesis of the affluent society, and while
>   >it makes some excellent original points, I feel the thesis
>   >is too often taken too far. In particular, it relies on a
>   >relative definition of affluence, where people become inured
>   >to hardships to the point where they're no longer considered
>   >hardships - which is subjectively true, but says more about
>   >the flexibility of the human psyche than the happiness and
>   >health of people  (defined by some "objective" measure, in
>   >so far as that is possible).
>
>   You have made this point a number of times in the past.  How
>   do you arbitrarily place your criteria for happiness above
>   measurements by others?  They may seem totally obvious to you
>   but the opposite is true of many members of other cultures.
>
>True, that is why I say "so far as that is possible".
>For example, there are people locally that seem to derive happyness
>from self-mutilation, I would argue that in some objective
>sense this is a real hardship, even if subjectively it
>is a contributor to their happyness. More strongly, a high enough
>a  child mortality rate observably decreases the agony
>a mother feels when a child dies - it becomes expected,
>yet how many people would advocate simply letting children die
>because we'll get used to it and it won't bother us?
>
>Similarly, the absence of pain killers can be tolerated to
>an extent in that a high level of continuous pain can be tolerated
>after a while - the nervous system renormalises it's pain tolerance
>(although not always, and certainly not fast enough :-( ) so
>why should we waste resources on producing pain killers? After all,
>people will get used to it? A proper cultural context may even
>convince them to enjoy the pain...

You are coming back with these false dichotomies again.  That a few
people choose masochistic actions does not inform us on this debate.
I do not _advocate_ giving up aspirin.  I advocate letting people
decide what they want.  If they want aspirin and all the other things
that are attendent to technological society, I think they should be
assisted in getting them.  As it is now, they are not asked.  They are
told.  Since the arrival of technological society and its "development
aid" destroys the local economy, as I described previously, those who
continue to desire to live in that economy will be denied their choice.
Your definition of happiness essentially rationalizes this denial of
choice.
>
>   Many Native Americans did not want to switch to Euro-American
>   culture, but they were given no choice.  To point to those who
>   do want to switch to a technological culture ignores those who
>   did not.  While it is easy to point to various mortality
>   statistics, many people may choose a quality of life instead
>   of quantity (length) of life and that which they see as quality
>   may simply be incompatible with technologicalsociety.
>
>Yup, yet the observation is that a large enough fraction of 
>people will actively seek out those features of technological
>society that extend life and reduce pain, that there _is_ change.
>The question then becomes whether people can have their cake
>and eat it too? Can you accept smallpox vaccine and tetanus jabs,
>clean water and imported food reserves during hard times and
>still reject the cultural baggage completely?
>
First of all, a large fraction of Native Americans did not choose
the features of technological society.  Whether health benefits
can be had without the "culrutal baggage" is a good question.  I
think to _some_ degree it is possible, and the book I have described
about Ladakh made some specific suggestions.  In any case, this choice
is not available.  It is usually precluded by the superiority
complex of those who "bring" (read force) development on people.
>*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	*
>*  steinly@lick.ucsc.edu		"standard disclaimer"  	*
>*  I know people whose idea of fun				*
>*  Is throwing stones in the river in the afternoon sun		*
>*  Oh let me be as free as them					*
>*  				- BB 1986			*
>
>
>
>


-- 

		dingo in boulder	(dean@vexcel.com)