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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 11:54:03 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Anaesthetics and Eve
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

James wrote: "I therefore have a standing offer of $200 for the first person to
provide me with the name of a nineteenth-century British clergyman who publicly
protested the use of anaesthetics in childbirth on the grounds that
pain in childbearing was a part of the sentence pronounced on Eve."

How much would James offer for a nineteenth-century American clerywoman?  If
James doesn't discriminate against preachers/teachers on the basis of national
origin, gender, and denomination, then he had better ready his checkbook:

"Teacher and student should also be familiar with the obstetrics taught by this
Science.  To attend properly the birth of the new child, or divine idea, you
should so detach mortal thought from its material conceptions, that the birth
will be natural and safe.  Though gathering new energy, this idea cannot injure
its useful surroundings in the travail of spiritual birth.  A spiritual idea
has not a single element of error, and this truth removes properly whatever is
offensive ... When this new birth takes place, the Christian Science infant is
born of the Spirit, born of God, and can cause the mother no more suffering.
By this we know that Truth is here and has fulfilled its perfect work ... Our
Master treated error through Mind.  He never enjoined obedience to the laws of
nature, if by these are meant laws of matter, nor did he use drugs." (Science &
Health, p. 463, copyright by Act of Congress in 1875).

Lest one object that the above does not fulfill the condition, "on the grounds
that pain in childbearing was a part of the sentence pronounced on Eve," let me
quote from the Glossary in the same volume:

"Eve.  A beginning; mortality; that which does not last forever; a finite
belief concerning life, substance, and intelligence in matter; error; the
belief that the human race originated materially instead of spiritually, --
that man stated first from dust, second from a rib, and third from an egg."

According to this nineteenth-century American clergywoman, Eve allegorically
represents that sentence of pain in childbearing, which is error and therefore
does not really exist.  On this ground a woman, like an historical Eve, should
not use drugs during childbirth.

Not only should women not use drugs, according to this nineteenth-century
American clergywoman, but they should not use sanitary hygiene either:

"When there are fewer prescriptions, and less thought is given to sanitary
subjects, there will be better constitutions and less disease" (Science &
Health, p. 175).

"A Christian Scientist never recommends material hygiene" (Ibid, p. 453).

"Departing from Christian Science, some learners commend diet and hygiene"
(Ibid, p. 457).

James, please contact me privately to find out my snail mail address for
mailing me your check.  Thanks for the Easter gift!

Yours (with a big smile) in Christ Jesus,
Leo
From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Yoga & Medicine
Date: 7 Apr 92 16:23:20 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century

KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET (Kerry Stephenson) writes:

>As patients, we are not required to participate in the symbolism of the
>medical profession.  We are, however, required to engage in the worship
>practices of Hinduism in order to practice Yoga (again, I know this from
>personal experience.)

Rubbish. I went to Catholic primary school in England where yoga was
part of the curriculum (not actually taught, but used during breaks to
teach kids relaxation, etc). You're not telliung me that this school
was a bastion of Buddhist doctrine?

P.
-- 
moorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive P a u l  M o l o n e y "Lines of light ranged in the nonspace of the  rem
james Trinity College,Dublin PMOLONEY%MATHS.TCD.IE@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU mind." vr
brownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien
From: whchen@CS.NTHU.EDU.TW (dr798302)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Who's doing what (Was: Abortion)
Date: 11 Apr 92 10:04:14 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.bitnet@TWNMOE10.EDU.TW

I support Lepzing's view in raising organizations to help others rather than
depending on the social prgram to do the wealfare.  The socail program are not
not only counter-productive, making the States to be unable to compete with
Japan, but is also counter-human nature.  Would you receive the help with
thanks when they know that it is come from some who may work for it for his
salary?

Allen Chen
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: jmb5b@newton.acc.Virginia.EDU (John M. Bozeman)
Subject: New Age/Christian Survey -Help! 
Organization: University of Virginia
Ireallyam: jmb5b
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1992 03:54:21 GMT

I am about to give a guest lecture to a sociology class at the
University of Virginia.  The Topic:  "Christianity and the New Age
Look at Each Other."  When Writing about such subjects, I like to
talk to the people who actually practice the faith.  So I would
like to ask anyone who would care to answer...

1.  What makes a person a Christian?

2.  What makes a person a follower of the New Age?

3.  What do you think of evangelical-fundamentalist-charismatic--
pentecostal Christians?

4.  What do you think of mainline Protestant Christianity (i.e.,
Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc.)

5.  What do you think of Catholics?

6.  What do you think of channeling?  meditation?  pyramids?  Tarot
cards?  astrology?  crystals?  UFO's?

7.  Who or what is God?  Who is/was Jesus?  Who or what is the Holy
Spirit?  Do you think the literal Resurrection of Jesus literally
took place?  What do you think is the meaning of the resurrection?

8.  Do you think Jesus will come again?  What do you think of the
Bible?

9.  Why do you consider yourself a Christian?  What do you think is
(are) the central tenets of your beliefs?  How did you come to hold
these beliefs?  Are you a member of any formal religious group(s)? 
Which ones?

10. What is your age?  sex?  Occupation?  [Optional, for
statistical use only:  are you single-married-divorced-widowed-
living with someone-under a vow of celibacy?  hetero-homo-bisexual? 
What race do you describe yourself as?]

11. [More optional questions:  What happens to us when we die? 
What makes an individual good or bad?  Do you think that there is
an absolute standard of right and wrong?  What do you think are the
central problems of American and World society?  How does your
faith address these problems, if at all?  Do you think that your
faith is the only way to salvation or self-fulfillment?  Is it the
best way?

------------------

Thank you for your time.  I may wish to quote from this material in
class and/or (maybe) in a later scholarly work; quotation will be
anonymous if requested.  As I mentioned above, sensitive material
is for statistical use only.  
              
               John Bozeman (jmb5b@virginia.edu)
                            (jmb5b@virginia.edu.bitnet)
From: spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Is it fair?
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:41:38 GMT
Reply-To: spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Kingston)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University College of Wales, Aberystwyth.

From Tuesday night, I will be away for Easter for one week. I intend
to deal with a few more verses of scripture before laying to rest 
this series on Calvinism. However, these will have to wait until after
Easter I think.

As a few people have privately mailed me with questions about the
fairness of predestination, I will send this article which I originally
omitted, not wanting to labour the issue. I hope it clears things up 
a little. 
---
It has often been said that if it is indeed true that man is
unable to choose God of his own free will then God would be wrong
to punish him. Such was the reasoning of such great men as Finney
and others.

Nevertheless, to state this argument is to misunderstand what is
implied by the terms "total depravity" and "innability".

Augustine did not hesitate to speak on the *inevitability* of
bondage to sin, and said:

"Since man was corrupted by the Fall, he sins voluntarily. There
is no external force or Coercion: he is motivated by his own
passions. But such is the depravity of his nature, he can only
move in the direction of evil."

Bernard says:

"In some strange and evil manner, the will itself, undermined by
sin, imposes a necessity upon itself. But the necessity, being
voluntary, cannot excuse the will, and the will, being led
astray, cannot escape the necessity."

It is thus clear, that whilst we are indeed in bondage to sin and
without ability to come to Christ of our own will, it is because
of our own will that we are in this position. We must understand
the difference between free will and coercion before we begin to
make judgements on this doctrine based on what we believe to be
moral and logical argument, which in and of themselves attack
those portions of the bible which tell us so clearly that man is
indeed unable to come to God of his own will. 

It is by our own will that we have made ourselves unable to seek
God, and we are thus without excuse (See the first few chapters 
of Romans).

Stephen
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 05:14:14 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Help ?
              3 Apr 1992 22:14:00 GMT from <HANNANT@JII.AFRC.AC.UK>

Nigel:
I don't know.   I don't know.  I don't know.  (joke)
                                                    Love INC,
                                                              ---Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 12:41:13 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: your mail
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Apr 9, 92 3:34 am

>
>Hi,
>  When preacing to my nonChristian friends, I always have to face the
>question about the famous ministsers Baker and Swager.  Some of them
>did watch their program on TV and was finally very surprised at the
>things they do.  Some of them then conclude that preaching is only a
>cheating.  Can anyone help me to answer these questions?
>
>Allen W. Chen
>

Allen..

My view on the Bakker issue is that they were two very annointed ministers
who _were_ used mightilly of God.
They were tempted and gave into the temptation of misuing the money for their
own means.. Eventually money became more important than God and more important
than anything else..
The biggest thing any christian can do is to say "There but for the Grace
of God go I"..  We should not condem, Satan does enough of that. We should
not be like the world, but pray for their return to the fold..

Like any human being, they had the potential to fall. This does not change
the fact that they WERE successfull and they did lead many people to the Lord.



*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
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X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 23:17:00 EDT
From:         Jeff Shirton <SHIRTON@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Two different questions

Kerry quotes:

>   (In reference to "birth control") "[Question] Is it an abortion?
> [Answer]  Definitely not.  An abortion kills the life of a baby after
> it has begun.  It is dangerous to your life and health.  It may make you
> sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it.

IMO, this writer is avoiding the main issue.  He is merely noting that
one method of abortion is safer for the mother than another.  It is
nothing more than a comparison of methods.

>  Birth control merely postpones the beginning of life."

I just elaborated on this in my post to Ian.  Some methods of Birth
control postpone the beginning of life, but others (IMO) terminate a
life very soon after it just gets started.

> --from "Plan Your Children for
> Health and Happiness," published by Planned Parenthood-World Population,
> 515 Madison Avenue, NY, 1965.

Many people have the gift of sounding very convincing, no matter what the
truth actually is (I ought to know I just bought the Brooklyn bridge last
week!  :-)

In Christ,

Jeff Shirton
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X-Original-To:  CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, MB09
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 16:34:00 CDT
From:         MB09@SWTEXAS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Congratulations!!

Brenda,

Thanks so much for the congratulations.  I mentioned my pregnancy about 2
months ago, but I don't post very much (until recently) so you may have
missed it.  Yes, this will be my first and my husband and I are VERY
excited!  I am hoping to be able to get another ultrasound in a couple
months because we really would like to know his/her sex, to make getting
ready easier.  (I don't want an amniocentesis.) We think she is a girl and
refer to her as Alex because if she is a girl we will name her
Alexandra Elizabeth.  I would also like to find out ahead of time so that
if s/he is a boy, we wouldn't be wrong so long and can refer to him/her
correctly!

I am glad you enjoyed the explanation of the stages of development.  It
amazes me as to how fast the unborn develop!

Also about the baby being able to hear.  I read that there have been studies
done and if you read to your baby in utero, they acutally can recognize
the stories after they are born!  Also, a friend of mine's sister-in-law
put music (a radio, I guess) up to her pregnant tummy and she could feel the
baby move away from the music source!  She also tried this with a flashlight
and again the baby moved away from the light source!  It is incredible!

Have you ever seen the fiber optic photographs of the unborn?  I would be
happy to send you or anyone else this brochure with the beautiful pictures
of babies in utero!  Just send me your snail mail address.

May Christ's Peace and Love be with you,

Michelle
      _|_
       |
"With God all things are  possible."  Matthew 19:26
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:07:21 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Stephenson" at Apr 7, 92 11:44 pm

>
>Regarding evolution:
>
>Amen, Ian!  I knew there was a reason I liked you.  Just wait, though.
>You're gonna get jumped for that one.  But I think you can handle it.
>                                      Love and Peace,
>                                                      ---Kerry
>

Kerry!!

Your firery posts have reminded me stick up for the truths as I see it..
My _steadfastness_ has grown a bit floppsy over time...

Thanks for the encouragement..

(Us _Sticklers_for_the_truth_and_the_bible_ had better stick togethor I
 think.. I can see that I'm gunna get blasted for that last post!!)

*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:32:11 CST
From:         "William M. Jordan" <IF20159@LATECH.BITNET>
Subject:      Abortion terminology
              7 Apr 1992 13:06:04 EDT from <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUI SVILLE.EDU>

I would like to respond to the discussion about the appropriate use
of terminology when discussing the abortion discussion.  I do not want
to offend anyone, but I regard the choice of which terms is used to
be crucial.  It is not really a choice over what someone would wish
to be called.  As an example, I will define the two groups as group
one and group two.

Group one prefers to label the two groups in this discussion as
pro-choice and anti-choice.  Group two prefers to label the groups
as pro-life and pro-abortion.

Words have tremendous power.  If we adopt the usage of group one (which
many media people would like us to do) then it sounds like the anti-choice
group are the bad guys, for who in America can argue against people
having the right to choose how they should live their life?  If we adopt
the words of group two, then those opposed to abortion are portrayed as
being in favor of life, and who in American can seriously argue that
it is bad to support life?

Another alternative is to label each side by the label they wish to
be called.  This would involve using the terms pro-life and pro-choice.
I have a real problem with this choice, for it implies that each side
is of equal value, and it is only a difference of personal opinion. I
do not believe these two sides are of equal value.  As a result, I will
not use the term pro-choice, but will instead use the term pro-abortion
to describe that perspective.

I wish to give the following disclaimer.  I am not trying to offend
those members of CHRISITA who have a different perspective on this
issue.  I am under no illusion I can convert them to my side or they
will convert me to their side.  My choice of terms is aimed at
the large number of people in the middle, who do not have firm
convictions on this issue.  They are the ones whom I am trying to
convince, and I will use the terminology that I feel best makes
my perspective look reasonable.

I am not saying that someone can't be a committed Christian and
disagree with me.  I know Christians who do not share my convictions
on this issue.  I respect them, and I respect their positions.
However, I will continue to use the labels that I believe
accurately describe the two positions--pro-life and pro-abortion.
In Christ, Bill

William M. Jordan            Voice       (318) 257-4304
Mechanical & Industrial      FAX         (318) 257-2562
     Engineering Dept.       Bitnet      IF20159@latech.bitnet
Louisiana Tech University    Internet    jordan@engr.latech.edu
Ruston, LA 71272
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 13:17:12 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Harvest

Vicky (I think):

My "New Unger's Bible Dictionary" gives the following for Biblical
figurative meanings of "harvest":

   "Harvest is a figurative term for _judgment_ (Jer 51:33; Hos 6:11;
Joel 3:13; cf. Rev. 14:15); a season of _grace_ (Jer 8:20); a time when
many are ready to recieve the gospel (Matt 9:37-38; John 4:35); and, as
the harvest is considered the _end_ of the season, so our Lord says, "The
harvest is the _end_ of the age" (Matt 13:39).  _Dew_ in harvest, causing
the plants to ripen with rapidity and luxuriance, is a symbol of God's
fostering care (Isa 18:4); _cold_ in harvest is refreshing, like a faithful
messenger (Prov 25:13); whereas _rain_ in harvest, being untimely, is a
symbol of honor given to a fool (Prov 26:1)."

Hope that helps.  Have a blessed Easter season.
                                               Love INC,
                                                        ---Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 19:26:00 EST
From:         "Jeff Sinatra" <BSC92SPA18@RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CScience and the existence of Error
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

Kerry,
K>I think you are reading too much into James.
I think that by stating, "He was just trying to deal with problems.." shows
that you are not attempting to understand what he is trying to communicate.
Clearly, I could be wrong about this--this was only my impression after reading
your post, and if I am wrong I am truly sorry.  There is far more in James 3
than simply dealing with problems.  He was explaining *how* to deal with these
problems, through understanding the nature of God, and what our relation to God
actually is. James is speaking of a transformation of conscoiusness from the
"...earthly, sensual, devilish," to the "...pure, peaceable, gentle," which is
"...full of mercy and good fruits."  By expressing the qualities of God (the
pure, peaceable, and gentle) we are overcomeing our beliefs in mortality (the
earthly, sensual, devilish).  And we can do this by understanding that God did
not create mortality--"Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water
and bitter?"--doth immortality produce mortality? Doth Love create "bitter
envying and strife"?  I don't think so.

				love,
				  Jeff Sinatra

PS. have you read the post with the subject line "Free will" I would be curious
about what you think of it.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 10:24:28 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Lists of lists (lots and lots of lists of lists)

The following is excerpted from an item posted on a list for librarians:

For a complete list of all conferences on BITNET, send the
following command to any LISTSERV address:

     LIST GLOBAL

A useful directory of BITNET and Internet conferences, which is
classified by subject and includes descriptions, is also available.
Send the following commands to LISTSERV@KENTVM:

    GET ACADLIST FILE1
    GET ACADLIST FILE2
    GET ACADLIST FILE3
    GET ACADLIST FILE4
    GET ACADLIST FILE5
    GET ACADLIST FILE6
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 10:45:14 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Water Baptism

List Folk:

As I have observed great variation on this issue in studying denominational
differences in "doctrine," I am somewhat curious about practice.  Therefore,
I have a question (well, several related questions, actually):

1.  What is your (your church's) belief about how baptism should be performed?
    (immersion/sprinkling/other--I know there is at least one "other," but I
    can't recall what it is right now.)

2.  What is your (your church's) belief about WHEN baptism is appropriate (at
    what age or upon what evidence of faith?)

3.  Does your denomination baptize into the particular church/denomination
    or into the body of Christ (the first requiring re-baptism upon a change
    of denominations)?

4.  What is the baptismal ceremony like in your denomination/church/tradition/
    whatever?  (i.e., are special clothes worn, is there a formulaic speech,
    are guests expected to be present, etc.)

Thanks for the input.

                           Love INC,
                                    ---Kerry
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