From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: Andalusian + Arab <> Lipizzan
Date: 2 Jan 93 08:02:21 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

> In article <1992Dec28.222518.15258@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman) writes:
> >	My understanding from talking with a friend of mine who owns
> >a Lipizzan mare is that two of the major Lipizzan bloodlines decend
> >from Andalusian horses, Favory and Maestoso, and one major Lipizzan
> >bloodline decends from the Arabian, Siglavy.  The name of the Spanish
> >Riding School in Vienna was derived to emphasize the high percentage
> >of Spanish (Andalusian) blood in their Lipizzan horses.  Finally,
> 
> While I'm not a Lipizzan owner I am an admirer and have read quite a bit
> about their history and that of the Spanish Riding School. Your friend
> is mistaken about the origin of the name of the Spanish Riding School.

	For the record, I did not get the Spanish Riding School information
from my friend I got it from a book, Simon and Schuster's Guide to Horses
and Ponies by Maurizio Bongianni.  Now granted this book's information on
some breeds (most notably the Arabian) has not been terribly accurate,
however it has agree exactly with most of the information that has been
presented by yourself and Anne Marchant.  However there are always 
exceptions it disagrees with you here.  This book claims that the breed
supplied horses "to the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, founded in 1729
by Charles VI and called 'Spanish' to emphasize the high percentage of
Andalusian blood in the horses used there.  From 1717 onward the Spanish
stallions were substituted by Neopolitan, Kladruber, and Frederiksborg
stallions, which in their turn were superseded by Arab stallions."  
I don't know if this information is correct, thus I asked questions.

> 
> Part of the problem is that in this modern era the word "Andalusian" is
> used as an umbrella term meaning any breed of hose from the Iberian
> Peninsula. I recently spoke to a woman who kept referring to her horse
> as an "Andalusian" until she added that it was a Portugese "Andalusian."
> When I asked if that didn't make the horse a Lusitano, she said, "Yes,
> but 'Andalusian' is used as a generic term." Funny, I always thought
> there were some significant differences between Andalusians and
> Lusitanos.

	This was confusing to me also, however a local breeder of
Andalusians who includes both Lusitano and Spanish Andalusian blood
in her breeding program has said that the two horse breeds decend
from such similar roots that they are essentially the same horse.
Currently, she says, the one registry (I can't remember if it's
the Portugese one or the Spanish one) accepts all horses from the
other registry, but the other one is more selective only allowing
some of the breeding lines of the other and excluding some coat
colors.
	The Simon and Schuster book claims that the word Andalusian
should not be applied to the horse it is commonly used for saying
that it should more rightly be called the Spanish Horse.  It says
that the true Andalusian is heavier of build, does not iclude chestnut 
or grey, and the height rarely exceeds 15.1.

> 
> >and this is a question, I have read that early in the 1800's all
> >mares bred in Hungary were required to be crossed with Oriental (Arabian)
> >stallions, there was a major breeding facility breeding Arabian, and
> >Lipizzan, horses located at Babolna, Hungary at the time of this decree.
> >My question is does anyone have any information about whether this
> >breeding rule affected the Lipizzan mares as well as other local mares
> >at the time?  And were the produce then listed as Lipizzan in the stud
> >books?  The book that I have read indicates that this indeed took place, 
> >however it is only one book.
> >	It WOULD explain why my friend's Lipizzan mare looks
> >EXACTLY like my Arabian mare, except for being a little bigger boned
> >with a larger warmblood head the two of them could be SISTERS!  This mare 
> >has no Siglavy horses listed in her pedigree, but has a lot of Favory.
> >As a result of our horses looking so similar she and I are planning to
> >put together a pas de deux.  Please keep in mind my mare is a VERY
> >typey Arabian with classic sturdy lines and conformation.  Also my
> >friend is considering breeding her mare to the sire of my mare's filly
> >because she is so impressed with my mare and filly and thinks they
> >would make a nice cross, and also because the Lipizzan bloodlines 
> >available locally (i.e. within 500 miles) are too close to her mare's
> >bloodlines.
> >

	For the record also, this information came from a different
book called "The Arab Horse in Europe" by Erica Schiele.

> 
> I did a quick review of a couple books on Lipizzaner history.
> Although I couldn't find a specific reference to the situation you
> described, it could have happened that way. The histories do say that
> horses were brought from the Hungarian studs to Lipica. Furthermore,
> the horses were moved from Lipica to Hungary during 2 wars and the
> Napoleonic occupation of Austria which ended in 1815. 
> 
> Unfortunately, many of the records of that period were lost during the
> war and/or occupation. Since then, duplicate copies of records have been
> kept at the stud and in Vienna.
> 
> The histories say that there were numerous infusions of Arab blood,
> especially after the importations of Spanish horses stopped. In fact,
> they do tell of an incident similar to the one which raised your
> question. The stud at Lipica was breeding both Lipizzaner and purebred
> Arabs at some point in the 19th century(I can't recall the actual date).
> They decided to discontinue the Arab breeding because the Arab stock 
> wasn't quite what they wanted. However, they realized that the Arab
> stock had many good qualities and decided to breed all the Arab
> stallions to their Lipizzaner mares. 
> 
> In other words, there were MANY Arab stallions besides Siglavy that were
> used in creating the modern Lipizzaner. In fact, one of them was
> supposed to have been Napoleon's own charger(an Arab called Vezier)
> which he had presented to the stud some years before he occupied
> Austria.
>

	This is very interesting, both the knowledge that a lot of 
Arabian blood was included, and the comment about Napoleon's mount.
In some texts that horse was said to be a 3/4 Arab, the other part
being Thoroughbred or a local mare according to whichever book you
read.  In other books that horse is listed as being pure Arab.
 
> Perhaps the greatest reason your friend's Lipizzaner resembles the
> traditional type Arab (as opposed to the modern show Arab) is that
> Lipizzaner breeders have been selecting for that type. There was mention
> in these histories that the trend in modern times has been to select for
> saddle type horses rather than the dual purpose horses that were the
> original stock. (The Lipizzaner were also used as royal coach horses
> until autos replaced horses.) This is especially true of the Lipizzaner 
> bred at the Austria's Bundesgest|t Piber(Piber National Stud) for the 
> Spanish Riding School. We visited the stud on a recent trip to Austria.
> MANY of the mares looked like sturdy traditional type Arabs and some
> even had an Arab type head. 
>

	I feel like I should give my girls a pat on the head or a carrot
for having such fortunate ancestors that contributed to this great breed :-)
	My friend and I were discussing our horses personalities and
some amusing anecdotes the other day and discovered that when they balk
refusing to go forward for whatever reason and are urged on anyway 
both of our horses will rear -- not the wild kind of dangerous flailing
around type of rear, but rather a slow-motion 45 degree angle true LEVADE
that they then hold for several seconds before realizing that their
riders are laughing and their demonstration of irritation was not having 
the desired effect.
 
> For anyone who wants to read about the history of Lipizzaners, probably
> the best book that is in print would be "The Imperial Horse" by Isenbart
> and somebody else whose name I've forgotten.
>
> In 1980, there was a book published to celebrate the 400th anniversary
> of the stud. The title is "Lipizzaner" and it was published by Control
> Data. I don't think they actually divulged the author's name. If they
> did, I've never noticed it! That's pretty good too if you can find it. 
> 
> There are, of course, numerous books about the Spanish Riding School.
> ALois Podhajsky(of Disney movie fame) wrote several. His successor as
> Director of the Spanish Riding School was Col Handler who also wrote a
> book entitled "The Spanish Riding School". These books give brief
> histories of the breed but focus on the history of the school and its
> training methods.
> 
> John
> 
	Thank you very much for the book recommendations!

						Tracy and everybody