From: brian@coombs.anu.edu.au (Brian)
Subject: Re: Bush Secretly Aided Saddam Until August 1990
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:21:35 GMT

AIESEC - Ohio State <aiesecrs@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes:

>NOTE:  Brian seems to think it a a necassary tactic to insult other cultures 
>and their methods of communication, in order to win a debate.  IN NO WAY ARE MY
>RETORTS TO HIS STUPIDITY INTENDED TO INSULT PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT CITIZENS OF THE 
>U.S.A.  I am merely throwing his below the belt tactics back into his face!  
>Would the entire world sans Brian not take insult.  None is intended.

	Let me get this right, I've just gone back and reviewed my last post
to try and find these "insults" to "other cultures and their methods of
communication".   The only thing approaching such a thing is where I called
CNN "shallow rubbish as is 90% of all TV" (or words to that effect).  You
believe that a value judgement such as that is a some sort of deadly
insult to the US people?   If so, then you are being a tad over-sensitive
IMO. 
	As a professional historian I still stand by that statement WRT to
historical analysis and research.

>In article <brian.703047784@coombs> you write:
>>AIESEC - Ohio State <aiesecrs@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>>

>>>>    Turkey, a "democracy"?  I wonder, do you know exactly how much
>>>>democracy the Kurds have been allowed to have in Turkey for the last 60 year
>s?
>>>>
>>>>    I think if you actually went and did a little research you'd realise
>>>>that armed insurrection is about the only avenue left to them WRT to being
>>>>able to express their democratic desires for an independent Kurdistan.
>>>>
>>
>>>There are plenty of people who want independence in demococracies.  Look at
>>>Quebec "Depending on how you put the question, you'll get anything from 52% t
>o
>>>62% (on the level of support for sovereignty from Canada)" Time April
>>>13,1992 pg.38.  I have been hearing lately about Scottish attempts to get out
>>>of the United Kingdon.  I have also heard of a small (very small) movement of
>>>Native Hawaiians who wish to have independence.  The only difference, these
>>>movements don't shoot people.  I just don't buy that the Kurds have no other
>>>recourse or even that they deserve violent recourse.
>>
>>    Do you know just how much repression the Kurds have put up with at
>>the hands of the Turks?  If you did, you wouldn't be suggesting that they had
>>anything else except armed insurrection to turn to.
>>
>>    A country which deliberately destroyed the culture, language and
>>institutions of a large proportion of its population over an extended period
>>hasn't exactly left many avenues of protest open to that part of the populatio
>n.
>>Particularly when those people, the Kurds were not even allowed to speak their
>>own language for over 50 years, as it was outlawed!
>>
>>    Sure, the resort to armed insurrection should be the last thing
>>attempted, however I don't think you'll find too many Kurds who'd disagree
>>that all other avenues have either been blocked or tried before.

>TURKEY HAS NOT EVEN BEEN A DEMOCRACY FOR FIFTY YEARS!!!!  

	Err, when did Kemal Attaturk establish the modern Turkish state
out of the ruins of the Ottoman Empire?  Whilst it has had short periods
(notably during the 1960's) of military dictatorship, Turkey has been by
and large a democracy throughout most of that period.  The anti-Kurdish
language laws were enacted under the first republican government, if my
memory serves me correctly.

>							I am siding with the
>current government of Turkey.  Using your logic, I should defend Hitler because
>of Napoleon's actions, defend Stalin because of Gehngis Khan's actions, and
>defemd Mao because of British involvement in the Opium Wars.  You have leapt
>beyond the bounds of idiocy.  That's USpeak for incompetence in case you are 
>too stupid to understand, which you have proven beyond a doubt.

	Fine, you side with the currect government of Turkey, just as your
country has sided with such savoury characters as Chaing Kai Shek, Diem,
Thieu, Marcos, Somoza, Batista and so many other people like those you name
above.

	That the present government of Turkey, continues the oppression of
the Kurdish people, and prevents their self-determination is just typical
of the sorts of regimes that America chooses to prop up rather than help
overthrow.  So much for a belief in the principles of "democracy" and "freedom".

>>>[... an arguement to which I have been corrected on.  I missed the thread...I
>>>apologize to those involved, but Brian's response opens up another can of
>>>worm's.]
>>>>
>>>>>[I called Israel a democracy.]

>>>>    Again a case of calling a Holden a Ford.  Israel is not a "democracy".
>>>>Have you ever considered if the Palestinians who are under Israeli occupatio
>n
>>>>have been given a chance to express their opinion democractically about
>>>>whether or not they want to become part of Israel?  Were the Palestinians
>>>>within Israel proper given a choice in the matter?
>>>>    Don't you think for a moment, that the surrounding Arab states just
>>>>might have a case for causis belli when they complain about the imposed
>>>>creation of a new, alien state in their midst by external, powers?
>>>>

>No.

	Oh, then how were they meant to react when an _external_ power
creates a new state in their region _without_ consultation? 

>>>>    BTW, don't think I'm justifying what has gone on since 1948 in that
>>>>part of the Middle-East, I'm not.  I am though at least attempting to
>>>>apportion the blame a little more fairly that either Mr.ppugliese or this
>>>>latest poster seem interested in.
>>>>
>>
>>>Israel is a democracy.
>>
>>    Israel is a theocracy.  The Theocrats hold the balance of power in
>>the Knesset.

>     But, not all the power.  

	The present government stands or falls with those theocrats decisions.
It cannot stop the Occupied Territory settlements for fear of losing their
support.  It cannot punish the settlers who kill Palestinians without cause
for fear of losing their support and it cannot make any decision WRT to
citizenship without worry about that support.

>			Simply because the people have elected Theocrats
>(and that statement is incredibley debateable), does not mean that Israel is a
>Theocracy.  Also, you cannot possibley deny that these Arab countries, Israel
>has to face, are not Muslim Theocracies.  

	Most are secular dictatorships or kingdoms.  Only two would fit into
your description and neither has ever directly attacked Israel and one actually
supplies Israel with oil.

>					They don't even hold elections you
>moron.  That's USpeak for someone who is not very smart.

	They hold elections, although seems to have escaped your notice
as usual.  As to whether or not their results are valid is another matter,
of course.

>>>>             These Palistinians were at the heart of four wars with
>>>Israel.  In case you have forgotten history, the Palestinians originally
>>>contolled the West Bank.  By getting their Arab neighbors to attack Israel th
>ey
>>>totally blew it.  It was the Palenstinians who couldn't live with Israel.  No
>t
>>>the other way around.  Maybe by their actions, they don't deserve that choice

	I presume there is meant to be more?



--
Brian Ross__________________________________________________________________
	"If it is dangerous to suppose that government is always right, it
will sooner or later be awkward for public administration if most people
suppose that it is always wrong."______________________________J.K.Galbraith
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm