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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 03:02:38 EST
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Blood of Christ

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757


>What can wash away my sin?
>     Nothing but the Blood of Jesus.
>What can make me whole again?
>     Nothing but the Blood of Jesus.
>Oh, Precious is the flow that makes me white as snow.
>No other fount' I know.
>     Nothing but the Blood of Jesus.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone but frankly, I'm very disturbed by
this particular verse of a song.  It's very scary to think that
the blood of another creature (even the son of god) can "cleanse" anyone
of anything, especially from a religion that teaches that murder is
wrong.  Can anyone explain this one?


 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 08:02:12 EST
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      The unpardonable sin

Jesse,

      I am intending to get to you on the question of the "unpardonable sin".
I haven't had time to research the bible on it.  I know that there are many
different ideas on exactly what the unpardonable sin is.  I know it causes
death.  I know it is not forgiveable.  But also there is scripture that talks
of death and yet we know that hell will be for the evil that live in suffering
forever there.  Is blasphemy turning away from Christ and denying the Holy
Holy Spirit?  Is blasphemy making fun of the Holy Spirit?  I know that the
words of Christ spoke about being able to MOCK (word used   in scripture I have
studied) him and God the father and being forgiven but not the Holy Spirit.
Will those that have accepted Christ yet blasphemed just simply die?  We are
not told everything and arguing will not give us the absolute answer.  A word
of warning.   If we are to figure this out, then we are held responsible for
our knowledge.  THose saved without Christ will be saved upon the judgement
of God.  Slim chance.  They will be judged upon their hearts and the amount of
knowledge learned. I'll try to find time to look up controversial verses and
maybe someone with a knowledge of the language of the biblical time will be
able to help.    Statements that I have made that are controversial are purely
my opinion and not to be taken as fact.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:05:03 CST
Reply-To:     bradk@isdgsm.rtsg.mot.com
From:         "(Brad Kaiser)" <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              Nov 10, 92 9:29 am

Jesse writes:

> Tell me :  HOW is an Unregenerate man, who CANNOT perceive the things
> of God choose to come to Christ unless that man is ENABLED, or as Jesus
> states, Ye must be born again ... the wind bloweth where it will, so it is
> also with the Spirit."
>
> Eric ... you speak of prevenient grace, but there is nothing in the Scriptures
> to support that

Jesse, you contradict yourself.  "Grace", as I told you, in my
words, is the freely given indwelling Divine Life of God; "prevenient
grace" is that grace which precedes and ENABLES the grace of
justification and the gift of faith.

You say that a man cannot come to God unless he is enabled, but reject
prevenient grace in favor of something you call "regeneration".  What
is this, a quibble over words?  Fine, call it regeneration.  Either
way, it's God calling sinners, not sinners calling an all-powerful
God.

> The dead need EXTRINSIC and LIFE-BRINGING ENABLING POWER

We call it "prevenient grace".  It is extrinsic in its source (which is God),
life-bringing (by definition), and enabling (again by definition).  (However,
as I have discussed before, it is intrinsic in that it resides within the soul,
and is not simply a forensic transaction conducted on my behalf.)

> To beleive that we are merely weakened by Adam's sin and all that we need
> is prevenient Grace is to REALLY say that We save OURSELVES with Christ's
> help.

Huh?  How can it be saving one's self to assert that we first need grace
from God to enable us to believe and be justified?

It really doesn't matter whether we are dead, weak, incapacitated, or
merely confused.  We are unable to approach God without His help, and
that's all that matters.

> Jesse Carnes

By the way, the opposite of a Catholic is *NOT* a Calvinist.  The
opposite of a Catholic is called a Satanist.

In Christ's Love,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

	  Those who trust in Him shall understand truth,
	  and the faithful shall abide with Him in love;
	  Because grace and mercy are with His holy ones,
	  and His care is with His elect.
		    -- Wis 3:9 [NAB]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: billc@housing.msstate.edu (Bill Chapman)
Subject: Re: God/Allah...
Organization: Housing Department, Mississippi State University
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:47:27 GMT

In article <kramerro.32.0@columbia.dsu.edu> kramerro@columbia.dsu.edu (ROGER A. KRAMER) writes:
>From: kramerro@columbia.dsu.edu (ROGER A. KRAMER)
>	Well my question is: sure Allah means God or The God but it's not 
>the same God we believe in is it.  Can we go around saying we believe in 
>Allah also with our own belief.

Maybe some old testament history will help.  Christians worship the God of 
Abraham and Isaac, his firstborn son by Sara.  Moslems worship the God of 
Abraham and Ishmael,  his firstborn son by Hagar.  See Genesis 16 & 17, and 
compare with Galatians 4:21-31.  Ishmael was the firstborn of the firstborns.

Allah is the Arabic word used to translate the Hebrew El, and Elohim, 
which are God, in English.  So we can say we worship the God of Abraham, or 
Allah.  But we should be careful of the baggage that word brings with it in 
the minds of our hearers.

--
Bill Chapman, Box 1262, Mississippi State, MS  39762
<BillC@Housing.MSState.edu>           (601) 325-2042
From: ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: The Gospel
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:19:44 GMT
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I think the only reason that Jesse believes we teach salvation by works
is because Jesse believes that any deviation from the Calvinist
predestination view is salvationby works, as evidenced in earlier
discussions.  I.e., if salvation even depends on faith or belief, then
that is a gospel of works.  I know many of you do not believe this.  So
once you understand what Jesse means by a "gospel of works," and you
know that it is probably contrary to your definition, you can take
Jesse's accusations with a grain of salt.

It's no wonder he thinks we preach a doctrine of salvation by works, for
we teach that in order to be saved, man must respond to the grace of
God, believe, repent, and persevere in good in order to be saved.  We
believe that this is what Scripture teaches, and I have already
discussed what Scriptures support these ideas.  Naturally, some disagree
with these intepretations, but not all, even among sola scriptura
adherents.

So, I ask you to consider the source.

Eric
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 07:26:11 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              10 Nov 1992 08:17:52 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Eric ;

Jesus spoke to Nicodaemus in John 3 about the ORDER of events in Salvation.
Unless a man is First Regenerated by God's Spirit, that man cannot even
perceive the Kingdom.  Jesus said that a man must first be "born again"
by the Sovereign Spirit of God who moves as He wills and to whom He wills.
Granted, faith seems to be occuring simultaneously with God's saving work, but
the truth is that Faith is a gift that cannot be received by a DEAD man.
For any of us to receive the gift of Faith and ACTUALLY turn to Christ, we need
to first be a person with a renewed mind, a renewed spirit ABLE to receive the
things of God, for we know that the unregenerate man, as Paul says in 1 Cor. 2
CANNOT receive the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned.

OK Eric, let's beg the question, "How does the man become ABLE to discern
and receive spiritual things of God?"
Only by FIRST being mad ABLE to do so, and Jesus calls this "being born again"
in John 3.  Otherwise, you would have God giving faith to people who have  no
way of receiving it, in fact they would still technically be hostile to God.
All people in their unregenerate state are   H O S T I L E   to God, as Paul
says in Romans 5 and Romans 8.


Jesse Carnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:51:05 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?

> Eric ;

> First, you need to stop ... fora moment ... and DEFINE "free will" within
> the scope of the Scriptures.  Does it state that man has a "free will"?
> Does it define it and say that Christians HAVE it as well?


> Jesse Carnes


Good question.

This brought up another question I have.

Jesse seems to me to be a proponent of the reformed position.  Yet RC Sproul,
a reformed theologian, claims that both Calvin and Johnathan Edwards believed
in free will (as does he himself).

My question, Jesse, is: Does your belief actually fit into reformed theology?

Mark
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:05:08 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Psalm 9:17...

The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations
that forget God.  KJV Psalm 9:17

Carol
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 12:42:52 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Harsh statement...

That statement's in the BOOK.... (can someone post chapter and verse?)
I don't have my small pocket Bible with me today.

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Trinity...
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 20:27:50 GMT

In article <aldavi01.721641245@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> Arlie Davis <aldavi01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> writes:
>In <9211091514.AA06742@itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx> A16905@ITESO.BITNET writes:
>> The Alpha and Omega is God and also the Lamb.
>> The First and the Last is God and also the Lamb.
>> Worthy of all praise, honoy, glory.....is God and also the Lamb.
>
>I'm sorry, but this is terribly poor English.  Could you please elaborate?
>
>"The Alpha and Omega is God and also the Lamb."
>
>First, "The Alpha and Omega" is the subject of the sentence.  So why is the
>verb, "to be", singular, along with the nominative subject, "God"?

   You are incorrect on this tidbit of English grammar.  "The Alpha
and Omega" is obviously singular, because Christ is both, cf. Christ's
words, "I am the Alpha and the Omega."  The Alpha and the Omega is
Christ.  The Alpha and the Omega [ Christ ] is God, and [ Christ is ]
also the Lamb.

[ more ad hominem attacks deleted ]

>A little consistency, and simple mastery of the language, will greatly
>increase your credibility, Christians.

   If you had examined the author's return address, you might have
noticed that he is located in Mexico (.mx), and therefore most likely
a Mexican.  Could you please demonstrate for us your command of the
_Spanish_ language?

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 08:40:14 -0700
From:         "(Steven E. Hoell)" <seh@NEUTRON.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the Rush.

Dan Graham writes:

[stuff about Rush Limbaugh deleted]

>Folks, the conservative Christian movement is being led by evil and Satan
>inspired men.  They are misleading millions of honest, God-fearing
>believers and it is a monumental shame.  Don't buy off on the Christian
>Coalition, Robertson, Falwell, Rush, or any other "Christian Right"
>leaders.  They want to lead you streight to hell, don't let them.

>I don't realy want to start a wr here, I don't have anything at all
>negative to say about any member of this list.  I'm just so concerned that
>Christians are being misled by the so-called Evangelical conservative
>movement.  I'm sorry if this causes offense, but you must stop and look
>closely at the Christian Coalition and it spawn, the picture is a horrible
>one of intimidation and stealth candidates and improperly used funds to
>push pseudo-Christian issues in state legislatures.

I second Dan's concern. On 9 June 1982 (shortly after Israel invaded Lebanon)
Pat Robertson said:

     I guarantee you that by the fall of 1982, that there is going to be
     a judgement on the world, and the ultimate judgement is going to
     come on the Soviet Union. They are going to be the ones to make
     military adventures, and they are going to be hit.

While God may have used this man for many good works, the Scriptures are
clear regarding false prophets. It's a shame that so many Christians
wanted him for President.

>We don't need a moral government nor moral legislators, we need Christians
>whose only desire is to spread and declare the gospel.

>Dan Graham


Steve Hoell                     seh@neutron.physics.arizona.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:35:04 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      To Wolfgang Hutter

Sorry to be using the list for this but my mail in not getting through
to Wolfgang.

Wolfgang, I have received your notes and have tried several times to
send mail to you.  I'm trying to find out what is happening with your
mail from Christia, but so far everything looks good at this end.  I
deleted your old subscription and added it back again in hopes it would
clear things up, but I haven't heard back from you yet.  Please let me
know if you've received mail since this morning. (11/06/92)

Madge McBurney
From: AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (Angela Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Armstrong on Salvation
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:34:06 GMT
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Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757

Something interesting I found in a book I'm reading about Herbert Armstrong.
Here's a quote from Herbert Armstrong abou salvation:

"Salvation then is a process but how the god of this world would blind your
eyes to that!  He tries to deceive you into thinking all ther is to it is
just accepting Christ with no works, and pesto changeover, you are
pronounced saved!...But the Bible reveals that none is as yet saved...
people have been taught falsely that Christ completed the plan of salvation
on the cross when actually it was only begun there.  The popular
denominations have taught just believe that's all there is to it, believe
on the Lord jesus Christ and you are that instant saved.  That teaching
is false...the blood of Christ does not finally save any man, the death of
Christ merely paid the penalty of sin in our stead and wipes the slate
clean of *past* sins...it is only those who during this Christian
spirit-begotten life have grown in knowledge and grace, have overcome,
have developed spititually, done the works of Christ and endured to the
end who shall finally be given immortality, finally changed from mortal
to immortal, at the time of the Second Coming of Christ.  So being, as
we say, converted, receiving the Holy Spirit of God is merely the
beginning!  Then begins a life long of living under the government of
God by God's laws which expresses His will instead of by self-will and
desire".

The author of the book credits the quote to three works by Armstrong,
those being "Why Were You Born", "Lazarus and the Rich Man", and
"All About Water Baptism".

All typos, of course, are mine.  Any comments (about the text, not the
typos! :)  )
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 12:39:00 EST
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From:         JHART@UMASSD.BITNET
Subject:      Jesus and the Holy Spirit

Hi everyone;
  I have a question which I think might be of some interest.  In the
Gospels, it is stated that when John the Baptist baptized Jesus the Holy
Spirit descended on him in the form of a dove (Luke 3:21-22).  In Luke
4:1 it says "Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit,...."
  The question is: Does this mean Jesus, the second person of the Trintiy,
did not have the Holy Spirit prior to His baptism?

     In Christ
     John Hart
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:12:35 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Whose will is dominant?
              11 Nov 1992 14:12:22 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Question in rebutt to Eric ;

"WHO says that love cannot exist where there is NO "free will?"

In Heaven, God will keep His electempowered to always do what pleases
Him.  We will have no free will in Heaven, and we WILL not desire one, as far
as Eric's definition of this "Will-'O-the Wisp" is concerned.
We will be FREE to always please God, and we shall do so.
Any REAL Christian would LOVE to always do those things that pleasethe
Lord.  And that my friend, is TRUE FREEDOM ... Not an option ... but
"slavery" to righteousness.


Jesse Carnes
From: NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse Carnes)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Whose will is dominant?
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:51:35 GMT
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              12 Nov 1992 10:28:03 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Dear Eric ;

Again sir, let us DEFINE our terms, as Rousseau said.

The Bible indicates clearly that Man HAS a will.  Now, with that in place, we
can see from you citation, that they would have to DECIDE whether to serve the
Lord or to turn from Him.  Eh, Academic.

However, their RESPONSIBILITY to obey did not necessarily imply ABILITY to
do so.  If we still have the ABILITY to fully obey God as He defines his
criterion -- perfect obedience -- then, WHY Christ?
Was He, as some wrongly see it, merely a good example of love for us to
immulate?
Or was He more?
Did He in fact become a Saviour fit to do so be EARNING a Righteousness in
His OWN right while on Earth and then die as a sin substitute for all of the
infractions of many?  Or, was He merely a martyr, in light that we STILL have
what it takes to fully obey God?
If we can TRULY WILL to do what is right, then WHY don't we?  Further, if we
can will to do what is right by our "Free Wills" then was Christ, in fact,
nothing more than a martyr, fit to be only pitied by us?



Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: CHRIST, NOT PURGATORY
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:31:32 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92110611340058@ASUACAD.BITNET> NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse Carnes) writes:
>I saw Brad's response and I find it polemically incoherent at best and
>equivocal at worst.

   I'm not sure what you mean.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 10:05:28 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: It's happened again - how discouraging... :-(
              13 Nov 1992 08:18:00 MST from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU>

On Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:18:00 MST Steven Klepzig said:
>How long has it been since I had to request that predestination, etc be given
>a rest?  3 months?  6 months?  Well, I'm doing it again.  Drop it for awhile.
>Predestination, free vs unfree will, etc.  Drop them all off this list for
>awhile.  This is incredibly frustrating for me.  There are many good things
>being said in the discussion, unforunately not everyone is listening.  I can
>also see (I think) tempers starting to get short.  So, this is it - again -
>GIVE IT A REST!
>
 Yo Steven:
 Through the ages, better men and women have battled this out. We need not
 fear truth. I can't think of many things more practical than discussing and
 meditating on God's Truth. The highest experience any mortal can have is to
 meditate on God's Truth and believe it. We are commanded in Scripture to
 grow in grace and in knowledge. These two are inexhaustible, and I would
 even speculate will be experienced in Heaven.

>I am very discouraged at the lack of love and concern for others, the lack of
>willingness to learn and to listen, the lack of Christian charity (IMO).  And

 This perception you have of a lack of love and concern for others is rather
 subjective and seems to interpret all discussion as hateful arguing.
 On Friday nights I try to go out to the local strip near campus. I engage in
 conversations with the kids that hang out there. Unbelievers obviously don't
 agree with me when I witness to them, unless of course God saves them. But
 because we don't agree does not mean I lack love and concern for these kids.
 I can say the same about people in my own church who disagree with me on
 certain issues. We may discuss rather heatedly, but we have been together
 now for over 10 years. We still love each other.

>I'm tired of reading the same thing over and over and over again.  Can't
>anyone besides me see that the same things are just being repeated without
>anyone listening?  To be sure, it has been somewhat educational at times.
>But most of it, at least for me, has just been static.

 You can look at the same diamond many different ways. It reflects many
 different ways. The gospel is God's gem with an infinite number of facets to
 be seen. You will often see the same facets over and over again. And you
 might notice that sometimes you see the same facet in a new way with some
 additional understanding.

>
>If anyone has any questions, please write to me privately.
>
 I really didn't have any questions, just a few comments. :-)

>Steven Klepzig (sklepzi@ssb1.saff.utah.edu)
>Co-owner - Practical Christian Living (christia@asuacad)

 Tom Brewer
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