HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!)
From: feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke)
Date: 7 Nov 92 11:22:14 -0700
Reply-To: sean@digaudio.byu.edu

In article <1992Nov6.113200.3380@cubetech.com>  writes:

>Actually, on _both_ platforms if you are a Good Guy and follow every
>guidline and suggestion, your software will not break.  Apps on
>Macintosh that break due to OS or hardware changes do things or expect
>things that are undocumented or not recommended and soforth.

[...]

>It happens on all platforms.  It just seems to happen more often on
>Macintosh since it has been out longer and state of the art for dirty
>programming tricks ;-) is advanced...


Actually it seems to happen more often on the Mac because Apple takes a  
different strategy to getting developers to write good code:  Apple sets  
up and enforces a collection of rules for developers to follow (well,  
okay, _Develop_ supports hacking... :)

NeXT on the other hand supplies so much code to begin with that developers  
would be stupid to re-invent the wheel.  And NeXT provides incentives to  
writing nice code, like NS486.

So one is a prod and one is a carrot.  Both methods work well (System 7  
didn't unveil *that* many bad apps...'leastwise not like the Mac II did),  
but I think overall NeXT's method has proven a bit better.  Then again,  
NeXT's market is very small compared to Apple's, so perhaps it's not  
statistically valid to compare incompatibilities.  Nonetheless, Steve Jobs  
et al was responsible for both strategies.  Since NeXT's was his second,  
we might assume he had learned some things along the way.

Taligent *is* going to use the second strategy for Pink, are they not?

--

Sean Luke
Brigham Young University                   MILK:  It Comes From Cows
sean@digaudio.byu.edu  
NeXTmail and nifty Mac stuff welcome
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: EGGPLANT, IMPLANT, EMPATH, BLAZEPLANT...
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 22:10:51 GMT

In article <Bxn03u.CAr@world.std.com> jbailey@world.std.com (james d bailey) writes:

[ ]
>> 
>>The Quadra is nice. It's really meant for A/UX which has never been accepted.
>>Might help if Apple started using DMA properly.
>
>Give me a break.  I bet less than 1 out of 50 Quadras run A/UX.  Apple
>knows more about marketing than that.  They would never produce a
>machine meant for A/UX.

Why not? With very few exceptions you don't need to have an 040 to run Mac OS
apps. 
 
Philip McDunnough
philip@utstat.toronto.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer)
Subject: Re: PDA's are a flop
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University
	<FISCHER.92Oct23152443@tyr.iesd.auc.dk> <83020@ut-emx.uucp>
Date: 6 Nov 92 04:17:51


>>>>> "Douglas" == Douglas Floyd (ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)

Douglas> The weakest thing about powerbooks is that dumb flip-lid on the
Douglas> back.  Apple should have done what Dell did and do a sliding cover.

Never used a Dell. Maybe when NS486 is out :-)
I kinda like the hinge on the PB, at least I like the ability to rest
comfortably in just about any angle. It has yet to give me any
problems, and I can position it quickly using one hand.

I'll change my minds when it breaks, of course.

Douglas> (That is st00pid.  you use MS-DOS portables for that :-)

How about a few issues of MacWhirled?

/Lars
--
Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | It takes an uncommon mind to think of
CS Dept., Aalborg Univ., DENMARK. | these things.  -- Calvin
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 260-8100)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Organization: Calgary UNIX Users' Group
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:16:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.034039.10761@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
>According to several independent tests, A/UX 3.0, Apple's latest version of
>its UNIX variant for the Mac, was substantially faster than the latest NeXT
>OS.  This was with both being run on 25 MHz 040 machines, a Quadra 700 or
>900 vs. a NeXT whatever.  These tests were non-graphical in nature to negate
>the Display Postscript overhead arguement.  I believe that I saw these
>results in Byte among other places.

I'd like to see these test results. Can you tell us where to find them.
I've never seen them in Byte. 
>
>Development IS important to me, and, therefore, the IB is very interesting
>to me.  One ENORMOUS problem, however, just how close is Objective C to
>C++?????  As I understand it, they aren't very close at all.  Objective C
>is NOT a very standard language in comparison to C++.  I cannot see myself
>expending a lot of effort to learn Objective C and to write programs in it
>which wouldn't be anything near portable.  Anyone care to comment on this?
>
>
>Jess Holle

How portable is any Macintosh code? Not too many machines use the Mac Toolbox.
As for the NeXT, you can develop in C++. Many developers mix and match
Objective C and C++. They use Obj C for the interface stuff and C++ for the
stuff they want to be portable.

There is an Objective C for MPW. Stepstone publishes it.

Terry Wilcox
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 19:08:27 GMT

Jim Matthews writes
> Rob Parkhill writes
> >  If you want colour, how about a NeXTstation Turbo Color
> > machine?  Even with the 21" Monitor it's less than a Quadra.
> 
> Not any more.  The Turbo Color 16/250 lists for $6650 according
> to my price list, and the 21" monitor is $3495, for a total of
> $10,145.  The Quadra 700 4/230 lists for $5039, and I believe
> that the Apple 21" color display lists for $3999; in any case
> there are a raft of third party alternatives for around $2500.
> Even with additional VRAM and DRAM the Quadra is cheaper, and
> it gives you the option of 24-bit color and 3 NuBus slots.  The
> Quadra 950 8/230 lists for $7359, so you could build a 21"
> color system with that box cheaper than with the Turbo Color.
> 
Not quite.  A Q700 is really equivalent to a non-turbo color NeXT, so  
that comparison is misleading.  The proper comparison is between a  
Q950 and a Turbo color NeXT.
According to my edu price list, a Turbo Color NeXTstation 16/250 is  
$4790; the 21" monitor is $2392:  Total $7182
A Q950 8/230 is $5520; 21" monitor is $2630, total 8150
So the NeXT still has a price advantage.  Notice also that you're  
actually getting a better system (eg 16MB RAM vs 8).

You can build a slightly cheaper Mac system by getting a Q700 (Q700  
4/230 is $3826; 21" monitor is $2630, total $6456) but that should  
really be compared to a non-Turbo NeXT (whose price I don't have  
handy).

> Unless NeXT does something between now and February the
> expected Quadra 800 and Centris line will make this comparison
> look even worse for NeXT.
> 
Your point is well taken, though.  NeXT's prices have been remaining  
stable while everyone else's are falling.  The price difference  
between a NeXT and a Quadra used to be much greater, and NeXT needs  
to move if they are to remain competitive.

> NeXT's hardware price advantage is gone, unless you compare
> unexpandable, monochrome NeXTs to expandable, color Macs.
> NeXT's selling point now is software.
> 
Not quite gone, but going fast.

--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
spagiola@FRI-nxt-Pagiola.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: andrew@cubetech.com
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:25:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.034039.10761@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
>This seems to indicate that the NeXT OS is a sloth to some degree.  Even
>without its slower graphics, its kernal has a lot of unecessary overhead.
>Given that the Mac OS is generally a fair amount faster that A/UX, except 
>in cases where lots of processes are fighting for processor time, this 
>means that a Quadra running the Mac OS should out run a NeXT rather handily.

There is an excellent chance that the benchmarks were not very good.
NeXT uses the Mach kernel, which is widely accepted as one of the
best kernels around.  OSF/1 uses it, IBM is going to use it for OS/2
3.0, the NT kernel is nearly a clone of it.  I bet they based their
benchmarks on stuff like "sed processing speed" or various other unix
utilities that NeXT doesn't spend a lot of time optimizing.


>Development IS important to me, and, therefore, the IB is very interesting
>to me.  One ENORMOUS problem, however, just how close is Objective C to
>C++?????  As I understand it, they aren't very close at all.  Objective C
>is NOT a very standard language in comparison to C++.  I cannot see myself
>expending a lot of effort to learn Objective C and to write programs in it
>which wouldn't be anything near portable.  Anyone care to comment on this?

First of all, Obj-c is now part of GCC.  You can get Stepstone's Obj-c
compiler for Macintosh and PCs.  NeXT chose Obj-c since there are
things you just can't do or do without a LOT of extra work with C++.

Furthermore, if you know C, and you understand the principles behind
OOP, I can teach you Obj-c in 20 minutes.  It's not like C++ where
they added a lot of complexity to C.  Obj-c is much closer to C than
C++ is.

Additionally, even if you do all of your NeXTSTEP programming in C++
(which you can do if you really want to), you code isn't going to be
portable to anything but NeXTSTEP anyway.


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com     | "Carpe Nocturn - I get more work done after
Andrew Loewenstern      |  2 a.m. than most people do all day."
Cube Technologies, Inc. |                          - Simson Garfinkel
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.advocacy:2471 comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:28900
From: jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: EGGPLANT, IMPLANT, EMPATH, BLAZEPLANT...
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:38:46 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

Also, does this A3000/Emplant system have:
  *built-in Ethernet
  *accelerated 24-bit color w/ the addition of VRAM SIMMs
  *three NuBUS 90 slots
  *built-in sound input

If not, then the A3000/Emplant system is a less than Quadra-level machine
for these reasons as well.

Jess Holle
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!)
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date:  5 Nov 92 03:23:24 GMT

tinsel@uiuc.edu (Thomas Aaron Insel) writes:

>Actually, he's right.  However, it's more like 60 files at once, and I've 
>never seen anyone run into problems with it.  I think, w/o real evidence,
>that some commercial software expands the file table on its own, and if
>you do manage to run into real trouble with this, there are tools available
>which handle it.

  Under System 6, the open file table was static.  Utilities like
Suitcase were required to increase it to something reasonable.  Under
System 7, the open file table is dynamic, although I still believe there's
an upper limit of 384 open files total (i.e. the file table will grow
dynamically to this size, but won't grow even further).  

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
"...there is only one thing worse than having marketing people on a project,
 and that is having no marketing people on a project."  - Larry Tesler.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: raist@rmece02.upr.clu.edu (Ricardo Hernandez)
Subject: Re: EGGPLANT, IMPLANT, EMPATH, BLAZEPLANT..
Organization: UPR-Mayaguez--ASEL Lab
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 19:16:01 GMT

In article <j!s1#zr@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
[stuff deleted]

|> but I dont know exactly.
|> 
|> >	If you think high-end software is more important, then ask me
|> >how glad I am that I can run almost all IBM and Mac software for 
|> >under $1,000 of additional hardware, and under $1 in software only.
|> 
|> $1 in software? :) They been cutting the A-MAX prices?
|> 
|> Im a bit surprised you think being able to run other computers
|> software is a big deal. Can the Amiga not stand on its OWN virtues?

   Yes, but to those that don't wanna compare objectively, the ability to 
run other machines, I believe it's awesome!

|> 
|> >
|> >-- 
|> >      Amiga Graphics Association BBS (516) 473-6351  24 HRS, 14.4k baud
|> >PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT PEROT
|> >    "I don't have any experience in running up a 4 trillion dollar debt."
|> 
|> Me neither! Vote me for president! Oops, too late now.. :)
|> 
|> ---
|> 			- Dan Johnson
|> And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0
|> 
|> These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
|> You'll never know whose they are.

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Raist   // Amiga 500, 38Mhz Special MegaMidget Racer
        \X/  Avid user of AmigaVision, sending mail from Mayaguez, Puerto Rico 
---------
           "If the PC or Mac continues to be the standard,
            the SkyNet will never be built." - OUCH! were not my words!

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: robertk@rkrajewski.lotus.com (Robert Krajewski)
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!) SCROLL BARS
Organization: Lotus Development Corporation
	<1992Nov11.192028.22300@news.Hawaii.Edu>
	<1992Nov12.225848.114240@watson.ibm.com>
Date: 13 Nov 92 13:05:36

Whether or not scroll bars work "in real time" depends on the
application. More precisely, it depends on the decision of who coded
the behavior of the particular scrolling view. (Some of those views
are part of the standard set of objects for a particular environment.)
For example, there's nothing about Windows that *forces* you to do it
one way or another. And the same is most likely true of every other
GUI. A lot of it has to do with user expectations, nature of the
view's contents, and the speed of the machine.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: raist@rmece02.upr.clu.edu (Ricardo Hernandez)
Subject: Re: Strange needs (who might need an 040)
Organization: UPR-Mayaguez--ASEL Lab
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:57:54 GMT

In article <TTN.92Nov11063146@kivikkorastas.cs.tut.fi>, ttn@cs.tut.fi (Tero Nieminen) writes:
[stuff deleted]

|> Still much in the same way that Mac users used to, buying a NeXT is a
|> subjective decision. It's not a cold fact. Mac users just seem to have
|> forgotten what it was like in those early years, and now bitch NeTX
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> byers all they can with exactly the same kind of arguments PC users used
   ^^^^^^                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> to bitch Mac users.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> -- 
|>          Tero Nieminen                      DANGER!
|>          ttn@cs.tut.fi                   Computer Bytes!


   Not only they do it with the NeXT, but also with the Amiga.

- Raist
From: ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!)
Date: 13 Nov 92 19:22:57 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Nov09.233113.17500@rmece49.upr.clu.edu> raist@rmece02.upr.clu.edu (Ricardo Hernandez | 802-36-4453) writes:
>
>   I don't think so.  I have used 5 A3000's so far, and all five look 
>"workstation quality."

Please.  You have just insulted every Sun (>=sparc1+), NeXT, Mac II,
VAX, and PC in the world.  Please do not use Amiga and workstation
in the same sentence :-).

-- 
********** ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd) **********
Windows NT:                  * Disclaimer:  I speak for myself *
                             ***********************************
You WANT your hard drive trashed now.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@vccnw07.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!)
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:03:33 GMT

In article <TTN.92Nov5120121@mustarastas.cs.tut.fi>, ttn@cs.tut.fi (Tero Nieminen) writes:
|> In article <hjh1rpg@rpi.edu> johnsd2@vccsouth28.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
|> 
|>    You have a choice; you can be unresponcive (0 sleep values- you never
|>    waste time, but you dont give enough to the system generally) or more than
|>    0 sleep values. In which case you a wasting a little time, but the
|>    responce time remains good.
|> 
|>    This is of course dependant on other factors as well. If you call WaitNext
|>    Event enough, you could get away with a 0 sleep value. (but this is
|>    rather processor-speed dependant)
|> 
|> As far as I understand the way Mac handles application switching, and
|> correct me if I'm worong, the Mac goes through the entire list of
|> applications every time (exept fot the ones that are still asleep). Ie.
|> a program that expires its sleep value, will get the controll next time
|> it is in turn going through the application list.

I dont think so. I think it will leap directly to anyone
who has an event pending, otherwise it does the sorta
round-robin stuff you mention.

-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: justin@graphlab.cc.uky.edu  (Justin Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!) SCROLL BARS
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:17:28 GMT

The Big Color Wolf writes
> The scroll bars scrolls the window REAL-TIME! i.e. When you HOLD the scroll
> bar WHILE moving, the contents of the window MOVE at the SAME time.
> LIFE would be much easier with REAL-TIME scroll  
 
bars.

Are you sure? On this NeXT here, they move at the same time all right, but you usually have to WAIT before the scroll bar stops moving (and the spinning disc gives you a little show). 
('040 station, 20MB RAM, not running any crap like AltDock)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@jec321.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!) SCROLL BAR
Reply-To: johnsd2@jec321.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:42:32 GMT

In article 22300@news.Hawaii.Edu, guiyu@spectra.eng.hawaii.edu (The Big Color Wolf) writes:
>In article <1992Nov9.132256.1127@yvax.byu.edu> sean@digaudio.byu.edu writes:
>>In article <4fl1rfh@rpi.edu>  writes:
>>
>>[regarding Apple's research into scroll bars]
>>
>>>Apples reseach contradicts you. Mere assertion won't chagne that.
>>>Amiga scroll bars may be better overall (I wouldn't know), however.
>>
>>
>>Since Apple does non-expanding scroll bars, that Apple would find the  
>>expanding type "non-intuitive" is not what I'd call "good science" :-)
>>
>>IMHO, expanding scroll bars make more sense.  Apple should use them.
>
>I would like to add my 2 cents:
>
>In 		OS/2
>		Windows 2/3.x
>		OpenWin
>		NeXT
>			etc.
>The scroll bars scrolls the window REAL-TIME! i.e. When you HOLD the scroll bar
>WHILE moving, the contents of the window MOVE at the SAME time.
>
>This is a feature which EVEN a 80286 running windows 3.0 has. I wonder WHY this 
>CANNOT be incoporated into the MAC OS? 
>
>LIFE would be much easier with REAL-TIME scroll bars.

This CAN be a nice feature- IF the window can keep up with the scrolling.
I've also used these. I like them when the work, but sometimes they
really make it hard to scroll around because it can be very unresponsive
depending on what is being scrolled.

Considering that Apple is trying to make the interface work well even on
8 Mhz 68000s, Im not too worried that it uses "jump" scrolling.

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT OS, TOO SLOW TO $#@#$, etc.
From: feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke)
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:41:06 -0700
Reply-To: sean@digaudio.byu.edu
Distribution: na

In article <ewright.721598517@convex.convex.com>  writes:
>In <1992Nov11.034846.25700@leland.Stanford.EDU>  
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
>
>>> A program developed by another company owned by Steve Jobs.  Not
>>> surprising that the NeXT version is so cheap.
>
>>Whatever its origins, WriteNow/NeXT is now marketed by a company that
>>has no links to Steve Jobs.  Besides, what if it did?  As long as you
>>can get software cheap, who cares.
>
>Oh, I thought you were using this an *example*.  To show that a
>*typical* NeXT program is affordable.  In that case, it was a bad
>example, since it was developed by a division of Steve Jobs, Inc.,
>which can see to it that NeXT users get a good deal no matter who
>does the actual marketing.  But if all you meant was that there's
>one NeXT application that cheap, oh, well, I'm impressed.

By year's end, Appsoft will be marketing seven applications, ranging from  
WriteNow to graphics programs (of the Canvas variety), money management,  
spreadsheets, and presentation software.  All the software is fairly in  
line with current Mac prices.

As the NeXT market matures, prices on some obnoxiously expensive software  
is coming down.  This is chiefly because the NeXT market is widening  
enough to warrant lower prices (to overcome initial development costs),  
and because most areas of NeXT software now have several competitors,  
rather than a monopoly.  There are, however, a few programs that are still  
too expensive:  Concurrence, Mathematica (non-edu), etc.  Give 'em time.



>>Oh give it a break.  The original poster cited Mac edu prices, I
>>cited NeXT edu prices back.
>
>Oh, wow!  And I have a friend who works for Microsoft.  She says
>she can get Microsoft Word, or any other MS program, for under $30.
>Let's compare that to NeXT's employee discounts.  Let's be as silly
>as we possibly can.

What was silly about this?  The Net is still over 50% educational.  The  
NeXT market (for single machines, at any rate) is still significantly  
educational.  So is the Mac market.  The original user quoted Mac edu  
prices, Stefano compared NeXT edu prices, and you insist the comparison is  
unfair.


--

Sean Luke
Brigham Young University                   MILK:  It Comes From Cows
sean@digaudio.byu.edu  
NeXTmail and nifty Mac stuff welcome
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: edcrwfrd@unlv.edu (Edward Crawford)
Subject: Re: Macintosh bigots
Organization: UNLV
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 20:06:06 GMT

Carl, you said that you wish apple had a standard spot for
help on the menu? Did you know that they did. under the Balloon
help menu. What? Yes... Not only is that for balloon's, that's the
spot where you should put help in your program.











Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy