HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Followup-To: soc.motss
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 17:10:35 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.152237.1124@tc.cornell.edu> 
 shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.123033.4883@macc.wisc.edu> 
 anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>>I took Melinda to be saying, in
>>effect, that despite that, there is an image that could
>>be revealing to anyone who will consider it, embedded in
>>Dworkin's extreme rhetoric.
>
>More or less.  As I wrote earlier, just because she's wrong
>about an awful lot doesn't mean that she's wrong about
>everything.  She's starting from what I consider to be a
>reasonable assumption (the problematic nature of
>consensuality in unequal relationships) and drawing some
>outrageous conclusions.  That doesn't invalidate her
>starting point.
>
>We've discussed, in an earlier thread, that it's hard to
>"get it" until you've had some direct experience with
>oppression yourself.  I believe that you can sometimes fix
>automotive electrical problems by driving really fast
>across a bump.  I believe that you can sometimes fix
>hardware problems by power-cycling.  Sometimes tripping
>over a book on the library floor can help put a problem in
>a new perspective.  And if Andrea Dworkin can jolt some men
>into considering *why* they get so angry with her, then she
>will at least have accomplished something.  Mind you, the
>number of men I've seen actually think about their anger
>with her and why she writes what she writes still numbers
>in the small single digits.  It's all too easy to dismiss
>her as a man-hater;  I'd like to see more people (men
>especially) consider the "why" of it all.

I would suggest that most of Andrea Dworkin's useful insights may have
been expressed by other writers. (I say this without having read
her recent books.)

For example, Mary Daly's "Gyn/Ecology" covers much the same ground
as "Woman-Hating", IMHO in a bit more literate fashion.

I would be inclined to recommend a mix of reading Robin Morgan, Susan
Griffin and Mary Daly, in preference to Andrea Dworkin.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Age-ism and the gay community
Date: 22 Dec 92 02:59:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec22.025944.26616
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Dec21.123146.16622@sei.cmu.edu> dbidwa@sei.cmu.edu (Daniel Bidwa) writes:
>|> There has to be erotica/porn featuring "older men" - but where?
>Try "Chiron Rising", or "Daddy" magazine. Both lean towards "Bear" territory,
>but the emphasis is on older men.

CR ("Chiron Rising" being apparently too oblique a reference for its
subscribers' or distributors' tastes) is a mighty peculiar magazine.
I guess most magazines reflect the sensibilities of their publishers,
but CR is almost a vanity publication.  It's given to publishing long,
rambling and unreadable stories written by the guy behind the masthead,
which wouldn't be so bad if they had some sex in them, but they aim
for something higher.  Pity.  Its emphasis is on "older men" rather than
"older men who are conventionally attractive."  Unlike _Bear_ magazine,
for example, it does not make any compromise with popular taste.  When that
coincides with my own tastes, I love it, but more often, it's like suddenly
encountering nude photographs of my uncle or grandfather or the Pepperidge
Farm man.  "Erotically challenging" is how I would describe it.

_Daddy_ is published in Harrisburg PA, and there's something industrial and
blue collar in its tastes.  I like it.

>Dan, who has yet to play with anyone within fifteen years of his age, and has
>since stopped bringing up the whole age question because he's tired of people
>telling him "you don't _look_ 23!"...

But you don't!  You look 28.


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Coming out at work - HELP!
Date: 24 Dec 92 18:15:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47703
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

In article <1992Dec24.151312.20356@dvorak.amd.com> tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett) writes:
>In article <47540@ogicse.ogi.edu> markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:
>>
>>btw: did you use a sticker or just deface the darn badge?
>>
>
>BTW, I meant to say put the pink triangle in place of the dot over
>your "i" (assuming you have an "i").

We do have an "i", but the darn dot is so small it wouldn't show.  Besides,
it is at the top, which isn't noticed too much.  My plan is to put the
sticker just below and after the name, which is the most visible part
of the badge.

>I wish that our companies weren't such hot competitors... sharing
>domestic partner info and HR diversity programs shouldn't know any
>borders, but I'm quite sure someone would say no if we tried to get
>our HR people talking to one another (mine is starting a diversity
>program in '93, and I'm going to make sure the lesbigays have a good
>voice in it).  At least we share other bay area companies as partners
>and as diversity mentors.

The understanding and acceptance of human diversity knows no bounds.

I will send you the contact info under separate cover.

--mark
--
Mark Morrissey           One Hatred to rule them all.  One Hatred to find them.
markm@cse.ogi.edu        One Hatred to bring them all and in the darkness bind
                         them.  In the land of Bigotry where the Shadows lie.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: endora@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Ken McCamish)
Subject: Re: long-term relationships...success stories, please...
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 21:55:04 GMT

A couple of really good books that I have recently found on the subject:

Intimacy Between Men, by John H. Driggs, MSW; Stephen E. Finn, PhD.
Plume 1992

This one is by a straight man and a gay man and contains useful ideas
and thoughts on relationships in general as well as on the special needs
and problems that gay men take to a relationship due to their growing up
male and gay.  It makes for quick reading and is not meant to be any sort
of bible.  The authors don't make themselves out to "have all the answers"
the way some writers seem to do.  Anyway, it's a good book for anyone, 
straight or gay, who wants to learn more about themselves and their
relationship.  It's a good guide on where to look within ourselves.

 A Legal Guide for Lesbian and Gay Couples, by attorneys Hayden Curry and
Denis CLifford.  Nolo Press Self-Help Law 1991

The name says it all.  So do the chapter names:

   Lesbian and Gay Couples and the Law
   Gay and Together:Do You Really Need a Contract?
   Contracts
   Living Together and the World: Practical Matters
   Buying a Home
   Marriage, Children, and Divorce
   So You Want to Become a Parent?
   Medical Emergencies
   Looking (Way) Ahead: Estate Planning
   Etc. . . . .


   Contracts
From: an104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ric Helton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: GLAAD: Whoopi Goldburg's talk show
Date: 30 Dec 1992 01:30:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: an104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ric Helton)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



WHOOPI FOR WHOOPI

Whoopi Goldburg deserves praise not only for campaigning recently
against Colorado's anti-gay initiative, but for using her new
syndicated talk show to dispel stereotypes and promote inclusion.

Guests on _The Whoopi Goldburg Show_ are asked questions that
would send Arsenio or Jay into fits. In a poignant interview,
Elton John told Whoopi about being gay, his sham marriage and how
he finally found true love with a nice man.

Elizabeth Taylor, asked about Hollywood homophobia, said,
"Without homosexuals there wouldn't be this town... You take
homosexual input out and there is no Hollywood."

And Whoopi got got k.d. lang to talk extensively about why she
decided to come out in _The Advocate_.

Tell Whoopi how important it is to keep lesbian & gay issues
upfront:

        _The Whoopi Goldburg Show_
        c/o The Lippin Group
        230 Park Avenue, Suite 550
        New York, NY 10169

Action Alert: Rumor has it that Superstation WWOR may give
Whoopi's 11pm time slot to the odious Rush Limbaugh (now airing
at 1am). Support her show by writing:

        Viewer Response, WWOR
        9 Broadcast Plaza
        Secaucus, NJ 07094
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Congratulating (het) parents on their new baby
Date: 24 Dec 92 06:08:40 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <1ha9p7INNm7q@fido.asd.sgi.com> pauli@sgi.com (Paul Isaacs) writes:
>This ties into something I've been wondering about.
>It seems that in Roman Catholic circles, the big bad sin is to perform a gay
>sex act; but there's not much in there about it being evil to have a
>tendency towards your own sex versus opposite sex.
>
>So, it's sort of like they realize that it's perfectly natural to desire
>the same sex.  It's just that you have to overcome the desire, beat it down,
>deny it, just like anything else fun in life.
>
>So you can be gay and go to heaven (I personally would rather that the
>Saint re-open) as long as you never have sex.  Yes?

Yep.  They expect gay people to live lonely, isolated lives.  That is
the unfortunate burden of the gay person and is why gay people are so
sad.   Frankly, I seriously wonder about anybody that would ask that 
of another human.  Those people are in serious need of a reality check.

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Devil CD's
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:15:24 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec21.213854.3309@mcs.anl.gov>

Jim Wylde writes:
>>[I would love to find a danceclub DJ with the balls to mix
>>from Molly Hatchet to Madonna to ZZ to Animotion to RTZ, or
>>the like.... 
>
>You and me both, kiddo!  I hear some metal clubs out in LA have
>gay nights where they have rock/metal for us.

This seems to be a fairly prevalent Urban Legend; *I* have
certainly never managed to find any such place/event.

>Disco STILL sucks!

As a genre, perhaps.  But there are individual performances that
I still adore; Amii Stewart's _Knock On Wood_ leaps to mind.

And _It's Raining Men_ by the Weather Girls -- now more than
a little cliched, I admit -- is just plain fun.

 
() My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees
() with me.
()      -- Benjamin Disraeli
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
From: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: 50 most popular motss.pix photos 10/21-12/26/92
Date: 28 Dec 1992 21:40:57 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tattoo.mti.sgi.com

In article <1992Dec26.220110.22101@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:


|>   91 fwa.and.fbat.uncens.gif

I think I might remember this... Am I sitting near a hot-tub?


|>   60 fruitbat_with_attitude.gif

Does this involve me?


|>   40 fwa.gif
|>   39 fwa_reclining.gif

I don't have any idea which these are...

|>   36 fwa_jesus_shaves.gif

At least I know what I am wearing in this one...

|>   36 fwa_bust.gif
|>   35 fwa.and.fbat.gif

And I don't have any idea what these are either...


How many pictures of me are there out there?  Sheesh, people will think
that I get around or something...



FWA
From: kpm@druhi.ATT.COM (Kevin Malloy (DoD #106))
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Telluride, Colo. refers ordinance
Date: 3 Jan 93 22:41:40 GMT
Distribution: soc

From the rumor-mill (actually, reported in local media):

The City Council of Telluride, Colorado has refered to its voters an
ordinance that would add "sexual orientation" to the list of categories
for which discrimination is banned in that town.  This ordinance would
be in direct violation of Colorado's Amendment #2, which bans laws that
protect "homosexuals, lesbians, and bisexuals" from discrimination.

San Miguel County, of which Telluride is the largest city and county seat,
had the 2nd largest "NO on 2" percentage of all Colorado counties.  (Pitkin,
of which Aspen is the county seat, had the largest.)

Only one other city in the country has ever enacted a law banning 
discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation by referendum, Boulder.
Many cities, including Denver, have voted "no" in referendums that tried
to repeal such laws.

Amendment #2 is expected to become Article 2 Section 30 of the Colorado
Constitution on January 15, 1993.  There is a lawsuit pending in Denver
District Court that 1) seeks a TRO to stop Gov. Romer from signing the
order that makes Amendment #2 part of the Colorado Constitution (it would
be an impeachable offense for Gov. Romer to refuse to sign this order
without an outstanding TRO) and 2) seeks to have Amendment #2 declared
unconstitutional.

Details forthcoming as they become known to me.

  					    Kevin

Kevin Malloy  kevin.malloy@att.com  		  DoD #106  1991 BMW K75RT
633 E. 11th Ave.      __
Denver, CO  80203     \/   With Liberty and Justice for all, NO EXCEPTIONS
(303) 830-2937							  Un-Do #2
From: tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Coming out at work - HELP!
Date: 24 Dec 92 15:13:12 GMT
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

In article <47540@ogicse.ogi.edu> markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:
>
>btw: did you use a sticker or just deface the darn badge?
>
I just stuck a sticker (very tiny) in the middle of our "a" symbol.
It was so tiny that I have to use tape to protect it.  However, the
olive-yellow background and the black "a" symbol sets it off nicely,
so it isn't really defacing it.  Besides, I have seen others walking
around with all sorts of things stuck all over their badges (we have
seperate keycards).

BTW, I meant to say put the pink triangle in place of the dot over
your "i" (assuming you have an "i").

I wish that our companies weren't such hot competitors... sharing
domestic partner info and HR diversity programs shouldn't know any
borders, but I'm quite sure someone would say no if we tried to get
our HR people talking to one another (mine is starting a diversity
program in '93, and I'm going to make sure the lesbigays have a good
voice in it).  At least we share other bay area companies as partners
and as diversity mentors.

Happy December!
Tom
-- 
|Tom Barrett (TDBear), Sr. Engineer|tom.barrett@amd.com|v:512-462-6856 |
|AMD PCD MS-520 | 5900 E. Ben White|Austin, TX  78741  |f:512-462-5155 |
|"No is yes, And we're all free"   |CO made a #2 no-no... PU!          |
|My views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin  |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Prolonged erection victim
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:44:19 GMT

jab@Ingres.COM (jeff bowles) writes:

>Do you know if the person who cast the charm on that guy's penis rents out
>his service?

No, I don't.

--
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu * John Dorrance * Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico

      You would be surprised at what resides in your insides.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Small grooming question
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 10:11:35 GMT

I would think epilation would result in unsightly redness, bumps,
and patches where the skin has been torn off.

--
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu * John Dorrance * Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico

      You would be surprised at what resides in your insides.
From: an104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ric Helton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: GLAAD: Joe Fernandez, NYC & "Children of the Rainbow"
Date: 30 Dec 1992 01:26:03 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: an104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ric Helton)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



JOE FERNANDEZ: STANDING TALL

New York City Schools Chancellor Joseph Fernandez is under attack
for supporting the "Children of the Rainbow" cirriculum, which
includes recognition of lesbian- and gay-headed families.

Five NYC school disctricts rejected the cirriculum because it is
gay-inclusive. Mary Cummins, school board president of Queens'
district 24, organized rallies (at tax-payer expense) in front of
the Board of Education, where she proclaimed, "We will not accept
two people of the same sex engaged in deviant sex practices as
family."

Fernandez has stood firm, arguing that "discrimination is wrong
and the way to deal with it is education," and demanding that any
district that rejects the cirriculum devise gay-inclusive
alternatives.

Anti-gay attacks on the cirriculum continue. Send
support/encouragement to:

        Joseph Fernandez
        Chancellor of Schools
        Board of Education
        110 Livingston Street
        Brooklyn, NY 11210


Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tom@flood.com (Tom Chatt)
Subject: Re: Motss pix
Organization: The Flood Group, Inc.  Torrance, Ca.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 04:30:56 GMT

an3360@anon.penet.fi writes:
|
| Is this newsgroup monopolised by ex-groupies for the Grateful Dead?

Hmm. I've only seen the Dead some 80 times in 14 different cities
in 7 different states. Not sure whether that qualifies me as an
"ex-groupie" or not. And not at all sure what bearing :-) it might
have on my bear codes.

-- 
Tom Chatt                        \   Don't take offense, take action.
Internet: tom@flood.com           \    Speak up. When we remain silent,
UUCP: ...!uunet!flood!tom        / \     we oppress ourselves.
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: ObMotss: Qu'est-ce que c'est?
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:49:01 GMT
Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam

bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) writes:
>gpb@gpb-mac (greg berryman ) writes:
>:OBligitory motss subject.  Generally used when a thread wanders off into a
>:discussion of the price of yo-yos in Afganistan or something equal in 
>:non-relavance to motss.
>Didn't the price of yo-yos in Afganistan come up during Clinton's economic
>summit?

ObMotss: Didn't they have little pink triangles printed on them? 

								FJ!!
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Lesbian Mayor of Santa Monica, CA: Judy Abdo?
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 01:29:51 EST
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X-Cc: gaynet@gallifrey.kent.edu, qn@queernet.org, la-motss@pompei.usc.edu


The November newsletter of the Stonewall Democratic Club of Los Angeles
reports that Judy Abdo, the Mayor of Santa Monica won re-election easily
on November 3rd.

They also said that she is a lesbian! This is the first report I have heard of a
lesbian mayor in the USA; I know of 4 other gay mayors.

the HRCF in Dc says there are 75 openly-glb elected officials in the USA.
Anyone want to compile the list?


   
---
RON BUCKMIRE
The Lyrics Transcription Project: Cocteau Twins Division, section 319
11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735
vox:(518)-276-8910 fax:(518)-276-6920 buckmr@rpi.edu buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Subject: Re: long-term relationships...success stories, please...
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 20:19:23 GMT
Organization: QueerNet

In article <BzvoK4.537@agora.rain.com> bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) writes:
>Finally, sometime between 7 and 10 years you will resign yourself
>to hearing the following question every evening for the rest of your 
>life: "I dunno, what do YOU want to do for dinner?"

I guess Dan and I have packed a decade worth of living into the past year.
Then again, time flies when you're having fun...
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG              {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Congratulating (het) parents on their new baby
Date: 23 Dec 92 16:29:37 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <1h9mq7INNcs@rave.larc.nasa.gov> carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) writes:
>In article <3@bbx.basis.com>, scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker) writes:
>|> 
>|> I offered a flip response to what was obviously a flip question.
>|> I find it revealing that a couple of posters flew off the handle
>|> on this subject. 
>|> 
>
>I didn't think it at all obviously a flip question.  Or rather, the 
>feeling I got was similar to my response when people tell "dead baby"
>jokes and then blame the listener for being humor-impaired when 
>offended by the subject matter.

The "pot roast" comment didn't clue you in that the post was flip?
OK, so you were offended but why did you believe the poster was
serious?

>
>|> Have we discovered a new sacred cow?
>
>Are you so suprised that the subject of babies and birth announcements
>is an intensely emotional one for many people?

So, yes, we have another sacred cow.

>My sis-in-law just had *another* miscarriage.  She has them about the
>forth month every time she gets pregnant.  4 months of pregnancy is
>plenty of time to begin all sorts of hopes and dreams for the baby and
>the family.  If she ever manages to carry a baby to term she and her
>husband will be estatic, proud, joyful, awed, and probably 
>self-congratulatory.  I am sure they will announce the 
>event to the whole world - or as much as they can reach of it.
>If anyone mars their joy by making comments like: "10 pound baby -
>hardly big enough for a pot roast," they'll have a lot to answer for
>in my opinion.

I hope you feel the same conviction the next time a homosexual couple
announces their special joy to the whole world.

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |