From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native.american
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:26:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.081341.16473@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>
	idoy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
> In article <1992Dec10.071654.10943@gnosys.svle.ma.us>,
> gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

> > No, I would not support the creation of soc.culture.american.native, and
> > would actively lobby against it.

> Regards your message, it is my hope that we will not have to do much
> lobbying against each other.

I didn't say I opposed a person.  Rather I take strong exception with a
proposal, since it appears to me to represent the antithesis of what I
see us striving for as a group.  I simply find the proposed name to be
unacceptable, for the reasons I stated in my previous article.

> In the mail I have received and in the
> post to news.group, it is clear that people WANT this news group -- a
> lot.  Furthermore, I believe people WANT to find a concensus about
> the name -- a concensus that it good for the logic of  hierarchies,
> one that us Native Americans can accept, and one that will be good
> for others, such as those who feel themselves native to this land
> after Columbus and to those such as you and your excellent
> organization NativeNet.

I want the newsgroup also, but I don't want it submerged into some
hodge-podge of topics relating to Americans and things American.  Such
a name would turn things on their head.  Doing things that way would
require creation of a "soc.culture.<region-name>.native" for each indig-
enous people, whereas "soc.culture.native.<region-name>" is logical and
much easier to get approved.  But my primary reason for opposing the
idea is that if we are to create a new hierarchy (soc.culture.native)
in the process of creating the newsgroup, it should relate to indigenous
peoples, *not* to some country or region, maing it just one topic among
many about that region.

Just as importantly, no one uses the term "American Native" to refer
to the First Peoples of the American continent, so there is no justi-
fication based on common usage of the term.  I do not see the proposal
as being one advanced by someone who wants to see a newsgroup created
which serves the needs of those who want a forum to exchange information
and discuss issues pertaining to indigenous peoples, whether in America
or elsewhere.  Rather it appears to me to come from a perspective that
is very common on Usenet - of someone merely using logic to point out
that a certain term seems accidental.  I see it presently as an attempt
to confuse the issue.  If the author of the proposal or anyone who
supports the idea of creating a newsgroup for indigenous peoples of the
Americas in a "soc.culture.american" hierarchy cares to defend it as
being in the interest of those who do want to exchange information and
points of view about indigenous peoples, I would like to hear a better
explanation than the one given previously.

> Indeed, I have not received ONE message against the idea of a USENET
> groups for indigenous peoples in this hemisphere.  Almost without
> exception, I have sensed a real feeling of goodwill among the
> people involved in the creation of this newsgroup.  It is my sincere
> hope that we can keep it at that level, walking together toward
> that which we agree upon, the creation of this newsgroup, becoming,
> as much as possible, of One Mind about this project.

I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible,
but I think that sometimes it's fair to ask a person what his or her
real interests might be.  If we don't share a common vision, it will
be very difficult to agree on a means to come up with a plan that
serves that vision.

> As the one having posted this RFD, the word I keep in mind is
> _concensus_.  Let us work together in the spirit of compromise,
> listening closely to the views of others, indeed, learning from
> others so we can accomplish this worthwhile enterprise.

Good advice, Mike.  I think we should all keep it in mind.  But I
think we should not be afraid of requiring good reasons for certain
proposals, nor of using sound logic in evaluating them.

> Aiachukmaka,
> (Peace)

Likewise.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst