HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: MOTION Course on Russian, in English, with Esperanto mentions.
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:50:18 GMT
Organization: Coventry University, Coventry, UK

In article <1992Jul20.170623.13769@bnr.ca>,
Reg Foulkes writes:
>In article <wz1mbvgm@cck.coventry.ac.uk>,
esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will >Overington) writes:
>
>>I put forward the motion that we should seek to create a course
>>on learning Russian, for beginners, with the instruction being
>>in English.
>>The course will use Esperanto, with its regularity and logical
>>structure as an aid by comparing and contrasting it with Russian, which
>>like many (all?) natural languages has irregularities.
>
> Why do we need a third language to learn a second? If instructions 
>are in English why not the examples...
>

I found that while learning French, years ago, that a lot of my
problems were that I did not understand the grammar principles
when they were clouded by the irregularities in the language.

It occured to me that expressing the grammar in Esperanto, with its
logical structure might well be beneficial.
For example, correlatives (such as who, what, how &c, - note
how many start with wh- in English, except how, whereas in Esperanto
they all start with k-). Other correlatives such as everyone all form
a logical table of beginings and endings. I thought that it might ease
the learning of Russian to use a triple language table for correlatives,
if indeed Russian has them, (or must a language have them in order to
be able to work?) would be helpful in understanding the structure and
showing any useful regular patterns or almost regular patterns that exist.

I am interested in languages, but am not very good at them, but I
do try.

Maybe this is a good idea that will catch on, or maybe a professional
linguist will find it pointless.
Xref: sparky alt.uu.future:123 alt.education.distance:249
From: esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: DRAFT Chebyshev Polynomials, Unit 2
Date: 22 Jul 92 08:16:08 GMT
Organization: Coventry University, Coventry, UK

22nd July 1992

In article <14hl22INNcfa@nigel.msen.com>,
emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti) writes:
>I did the first unit of the course OK w the help of the
>"function plotting" piece of my hp 95 pocket calculator.
>Couldn't manage to get it to draw the parametic equations,
>tho.

How about some hand drawn plots on graph paper?

I have often found that, once I get sat down to it, possibly during
an evening or on a weekend afternoon, plotting graphs by hand, working
out the points as I go along, can be quite interesting and rewarding
in terms of insight.

That was behind my thinking in providing the sets of tables, so that
all of the information needed is there within the unit.


>
>i guess i'm missing part of the point.  are these then polynomials
>that approximate sin and cos within some part of their range?
>in which case you might bring in some talk of taylor expansions?
>
>(time for alt.uu.maths?)
>
>--Ed

As far as I know, and I too am learning, Chebyshev Polynomials are
not used to approximate sin and cos within some part of their range.

The idea is that you can approximate functions that you know numerically
by computing a Chebyshev Series, which is akin to a Fourier Series
in concept, except that the Chebyshev Series is for ordinary functions
rather than repetative ones in the way that Fourier Series are used.

For example, you might try computing something such as

y = 0.1 * T3(x) + 0.2 * T2(x) + T1(x) + 0.3 * T0(x)

I have not selected the coefficients to have any significance at all,
merely to have a graph that has a general upward trend within it.

You could try several different examples, including negative coefficients.

Thank you for your interest in the course.
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Short Course not available through UU
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:25:09 GMT

In article <14n1b9INNsjq@nigel.msen.com>, emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti) writes in part:
|> the internet engineering task force (ietf) presented an audio "multicast"
|> of their last meeting held in Boston.  
[ description of cool stuff omitted ]

...and you should see the stuff we can do in our labs at the University of
Illinois (not to mention industrial labs like apple.com has.)  "We" are
well aware of how we want the internet to work, what we want just 
isn't widely available at a reasonable cost.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: New groups for Usenet University
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 22:18:17 GMT

In article <0r@byu.edu>, gritton@florida (Jamie Gritton) writes:
>> alt.uu.announce
>
>> This is a group for announcements of UU.
>
>This was marked moderated. What's the submission address?

I blew it and the group was not created moderated.  At least for now
we will have an unmoderated group.  Sorry about that.

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future
From: esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: MOTION Course on Russian, in English, with Esperanto mentions.
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:23:18 GMT
Organization: Coventry University, Coventry, UK

In article <1992Jul24.071205.18490@syacus.acus.oz.au>,
ron@syacus.acus.oz.au (Ron Williams) writes:
>esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:
>: 20th July 1992
>: 
>: MOTION Course on Russian, in English, with Esperanto mentions.
>: 
>: I put forward the motion that we should seek to create a course
>: on learning Russian, for beginners, with the instruction being
>: in English.
>: The course will use Esperanto, with its regularity and logical
>
>I would like to see courses on several languages offered, but have zero 
>interest in being forced to learn an artificial, relatively unused language 

No one is forcing anyone to do anything.
It was a suggestion of a (probably novel) opportunity.
Several people have liked it.

>as an intermediary - i.e. Esperanto. I find Esperanto to be an ugly language -
>I realise that this is just my personal taste, but I _am_ entitled to an 
>opinion. I also realise that there are quite a few Esperanto hobbyists out 
>there who would like to see their baby become the international language. I
>don't think it will happen, and therefore find these references to Esperanto
>to be an annoying irrelevance.

I feel that there are two issues here, namely whether Esperanto should
become the international language (which, if people start discussing
that issue, will quickly include whether it is intended to be the
international language or a second language for all and so on) and
whether Esperanto would be a useful vehicle for explaining grammatical
constructs.

>
>I don't want to offend, but as I said, I am entitled to an opinion, especially
>as I fully support the general idea.
>
>Ron.

You are not offending. You have stated your opinion in a polite manner.
Even if you are in a minority, or even a minority of one, your
opinion is still valid and deserves recognition.

When you say "the general idea" do you mean "learning Russian on the net"
or do you mean "Usenet University" itself.

If the former, then maybe the course can be constructed so that the
comparing to and contrasting with Esperanto can be in clearly marked
optional sections.
Xref: sparky alt.uu.future:133 alt.education.distance:258
From: duncan@spd.eee.strathclyde.ac.uk (Duncan C Thomson)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: TOOLS Roman (including Esperanto) and Cyrillic over the net
Date: 24 Jul 92 10:39:43 GMT
Organization: SPD, Strathclyde University, Glasgow, Scotland
Originator: duncan@ossian

In alt.education.distance, esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:
>
>teaching, I am here setting out some thoughts on how we are to be
>able to send files which need to be used to display English,
>Esperanto and Russian on the screens of computers, around on the
>net.

Why not use the ISO standard?  There certainly is one, though I don't know
it's number.  As far as Esperanto is concerned, what is the problem with
using either of the two most popular representations - the trailing-x and
preceding-circumflex - the steloj system is too complicated for a bear of
very little brain such as myself...

	-Duncan

-- 
Duncan   <duncan@spd.eee.strathclyde.ac.uk> |  .__ _. _ .__._  _ , .___ _
Thomson     (OR <cnbr50@vaxa.strath.ac.uk>) |  |_ |_ |_||_ |_|/_\|\| | / \
SPD, Dept of EEE, University of Strathclyde |  |__._||  |__| \| || | | \_/
204 George Street, Glasgow G1 1XW, UK       | esperanto - lingvo internacia
Xref: sparky alt.uu.future:126 alt.education.distance:254
From: gritton@florida.et.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: New groups for Usenet University
Date: 23 Jul 92 01:41:28 GMT
Reply-To: gritton@byu.edu
Followup-To: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA

jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:

> alt.uu.announce

> This is a group for announcements of UU.

This was marked moderated. What's the submission address?
--
James Gritton - gritton@byu.edu - I disclaim
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance,alt.config,alt.uu.announce
From: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: DRAFT Chebyshev Polynomials, Unit 2
Date: 21 Jul 1992 14:29:08 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, Michigan
NNTP-Posting-Host: nigel.msen.com
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

I did the first unit of the course OK w the help of the
"function plotting" piece of my hp 95 pocket calculator.
Couldn't manage to get it to draw the parametic equations,
tho.

i guess i'm missing part of the point.  are these then polynomials
that approximate sin and cos within some part of their range?
in which case you might bring in some talk of taylor expansions?

(time for alt.uu.maths?)

--Ed
From: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future
Subject: Re: Short Course not available through UU
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:29:31 GMT
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, Michigan
NNTP-Posting-Host: nigel.msen.com
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

the internet engineering task force (ietf) presented an audio "multicast"
of their last meeting held in Boston.  A camera was trained on the
presenter, and the video went out over the Internet (highly compressed,
3-4 frames/sec).  participants in the audio portion could hear the
speaker, and those who had microphones could pipe up and speak themselves.

aside from the distinct problem that getting enough bandwidth to
support such an effort is substantial, and that the software to do
it is only in very early research stages, i would expect that audio
and video course telecasting would be a natural internet application.

the video doesn't work too well when people jump around - it tends to
result in multiple images on screen - which may or may not be entirely
suitable to the task at hand.  fun tho.

  Edward Vielmetti, vice president for research, Msen Inc. emv@Msen.com
        Msen Inc., 628 Brooks, Ann Arbor MI  48103 +1 313 741 1120
"We believe in: rough concensus and working code."  Dave Clark on the IETF
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: TOOLS Roman (including Esperanto) and Cyrillic over the net
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 23:32:35 GMT

In <6s4mbkkx@cck.coventry.ac.uk> esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington)
	writes:

> 22nd July 1992
>
> TOOLS Roman (including Esperanto) and Cyrillic over the net
>
> As it looks like there is enthusiasm for the course on Russian,
> with grammar explanations including references to Esperanto,
> though we still need someone with knowledge of Russian to do the
> teaching...

One way of tracking down someone to do the teaching that I would suggest is
to post a note to the RUSSIA mailing list at the address "russia@indycms.bitnet"

Here's a recent article from that list which mentions a software goodie that
might be useful in dealing with Cyrillic <--> Roman alphabet conversions:

| Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 10:47:30 EDT
| From: Mark Markish x2799 <gnosys!FEDS46.PRIME.COM!mmarkish>
| Subject: strange Latino-Russian
| To: Multiple recipients of list RUSSIA <RUSSIA@INDYCMS.BITNET>
|
| > I would like to see more of this from anybody who is
| > willing to do it--either in English or in the strange Latino-Russian!
|
| A UNIX tool for conversion of Cyrillic into "Latino-Russian" (or, to that
| matter, for any non-one-to-one ASCII re-coding) is available from the
| sender upon request.

--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Xref: sparky alt.uu.future:137 alt.education.distance:262
From: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: TOOLS Roman (including Esperanto) and Cyrillic over the net
Date: 24 Jul 1992 14:09:01 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, Michigan
NNTP-Posting-Host: nigel.msen.com
Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="cut-here"
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

--cut-here

esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:
: >The next step is to a MIME reader that will handle multiple languages
: >or character sets - dependent only upon both parties having the 
: >appropriate fonts and character encoding schemes. 
: 
: What does MIME mean please?

MIME is the "multipurpose internet mail extensions", as documented in 
RFC 1341 (available for anonymous ftp from e.g.
	ftp.nisc.sri.com:/rfc/rfc1341.txt

If you have a MIME reader, this news article includes the RFC as an
attachment.

--Ed

--cut-here
Content-type: message/external-body
 ; access-type=ANON-FTP
 ; site="ftp.nisc.sri.com"
 ; directory="/rfc"
 ; name="rfc1341.txt"

Content-type: text/plain

--cut-here--
Xref: sparky alt.uu.future:131 alt.education.distance:256
From: swildner@channelz.GUN.de (Sascha Wildner)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: MOTION Course on Russian, in English, with Esperanto mentions.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 23:29:21 CET
 <m32mbagq@cck.coventry.ac.uk>
Organization: Static Attic Development

In article <m32mbagq@cck.coventry.ac.uk>, Will Overington writes:

> So, that is two of us already wishing to participate.

Three! Me too!


--
         Sascha Wildner, Am Druvendriesch 27, 5030 Huerth 6, Germany

           There is no good PC software, only lots of PC software.
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
From: swalter@nyx.cs.du.edu (DreamWeaver)
Subject: Re: MOTION Course on Russian, in English, with Esperanto mention
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 21:34:06 GMT


Make that another YES.  I'm interested in brushing up on my Russian ...
and if I pick up an understanding of Esperanto in the process ... all the
better.

-Scott J. Walter
From: Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future
Subject: Esperanto teaching
Date: 23 Jul 92 08:51:42 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU

With regard to teaching Esperanto, might it be possible to use
something like the free postal course that the EAB runs? This could be
put on-line directly and answers provided so that people could check
what they had done. Answers could be rot13'd in the unit, a checking
program could be provided or else an automatic e-mail marker could be
implemented. None of these provide helpful comments of course, but
that could be a second level thing dropping through to people who were
prepared to do it.

L.

MAIL :	Lindsay.Marshall@newcastle.ac.uk
POST :	Computing Laboratory, The University, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK NE1 7RU
VOICE:	+44-91-222-8267
FAX  :	+44-91-222-8572
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future
From: reintjes@infonode.ingr.com (Peter Reintjes)
Subject: Is Esperanto Necessary
Keywords: esperanto russian
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:44:24 GMT


I would like to add that I too am puzzled by the
enthusiasm for Esperanto.  It seems apparent that
the lingua franca (sorry) of the Net is English.
Whether that is good or bad,  it just is.

Maybe I don't understand why you need another 
language to describe the grammar of (say) Russian.

Just describe the grammar using English words.
I don't really see why it is necessary to use
a language with a nice,  regular grammar. Even if
it is slightly preferable to do this,  it hardly
seems to outweight the overhead of learning another
language.

I know English,  French,  a little German and would
love to learn Russian.  I'm not terribly excited
about using Esperanto to do this.  My point is
that we are already using English. It is quite easy
to explain the concept of French genders using
English,  even though the English doesn't have that
characteristic.


Just my humble opinion, 

         Peter Reintjes     pbr@quine.sofla.ingr.com))
Xref: sparky alt.uu.future:147 alt.education.distance:267
From: esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: DRAFT Chebyshev Polynomials, Unit 2
Date: 21 Jul 92 09:17:08 GMT
Organization: Coventry University, Coventry, UK

In article <z41mbwzg@csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
cudep@warwick.ac.uk (Ian Dickinson) writes:
>In article <231mbfhf@cck.coventry.ac.uk>,
esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:
>>>>LEARNING MATERIAL UNDER DEVELOPMENT
>>>If I was learning from that, I'd leave the course immediately.
>>Come off it, Ian, what exactly are you criticising here?
>>Are you saying that the text that I have put out is wrong?
>
>No - it was correct to the level I understand it.
>
>The writing style, however, was so dry it almost ripped my throat out.

Can you please explain what you mean, and maybe write a sentence or two
as an example.

It is very important that learning material is regarded as readable and
an enjoyable thing to use. If I am writing it in a style which causes that
reaction, then at least I need to review how I am going about my writing.

[much here deleted]

>
>>As you have criticised me publicly, please reply publicly and not just as
>>some e-mail note that by netiquette I cannot publish.
>
>By which you imply that I have done this before - not so.

I did not intend to give that implication.
However, now that you mention the matter, I can see that a third person
reading my note may have thought that that was what I intended.

It was a reaction to what happened with the man from some time ago
who made up quotes, then, when I defended, e-mailed me telling me off.

As the matter has been raised, I will go further.
I have always found you to be very helpful in your work as the
newsadmin for this site and very fair in your dealings.


>
>>I think that Usenet University is a magnificent idea and I am proud
>>to be involved in trying to help get it going.
>>You wait, one day it will fly on teletext lines all over Europe, Africa,
>>Latin America &c and be a major educational opportunity for all.
>
>IYNSHO.

Now what does this mean?
Is it some acronym of a saying?

>
>>>I'd like to see UU come to fruition, but all this talk of SACs, and what
>>Why should I not suggest SACs and people discuss them?
>>So, maybe it will come to nothing, but surely it can be discussed.
>
>Sorry, my fault here. It should have read as "All this talk of Turbo Pacal
>programs for SACs".  These are trivialities which can be sorted out when
>the format for UU has been settled.  It's a bit like writing the report
>of a soccer match for publication before the match has ever happened.

Actually, it was only a gleeful line enthusing about graphics.
Then someone questioned my motives and so I explained that position
as just honest, creative enthusiasm.
Xref: sparky alt.uu.future:117 alt.education.distance:240
From: esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future,alt.education.distance
Subject: Re: MOTION Course on Russian, in English, with Esperanto mentions.
Date: 21 Jul 92 08:39:48 GMT
Organization: Coventry University, Coventry, UK

In article <1992Jul21.014255.22110@csuvax1.csu.murdoch.edu.au> keulen@csuvax1.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Michael VanKeulen) writes:
>Hi!
>
>Yes, I would be interested in such a course - unfortunately in a participatory
>role only.  I have no Russian or Esperanto so far - would that be a problem, or
>would Esperanto only be an aid to learning?
>
>Thanks,
>		Mike
>

I do not envisage it as being a problem.

For example, all Esperanto verbs are regular. That is it.

Consider the present tense of any verb, e.g. sidi, to sit.

Mi sidas    I sit
Vi sidas    You sit
Li sidas    He sits

Ni sidas    We sit
Vi sidas    You sit
Ili sidas   They sit

Now, the English has sits in the 3rd person singular but sit everywhere
else.

Many natural languages have patterns of endings, several different patterns
and then irregularities, like, for example, in French where the first
person plural of manger, to eat, has nous mangeons rather than nous mangons
which would be the pattern if it were a strictly regular -er verb.

So, I envisage the Esperanto as a way of explaining grammar, for example,
subordinate clauses and the like, so that a perfectly regular way of
doing it would be set out using Esperanto, then the Russian way, whether
that is regular or not or differently structured or whatever would be
compared and contrasted with the Esperanto.

Certainly, some concepts, (such as gender of nouns, where for
example, in French, a window is feminine), are just not explainable using
Esperanto, apart from saying that Esperanto does not have the concept.
For example, the Esperanto word for the word the is always la,
(though I think it can be l' before a vowel if desired in poetry , &c),
whereas a longer time needs to be taken in French to explain le, la, les, l'
and when they are used. It is also necessary to learn the gender of each noun
separately.

So, that is two of us already wishing to participate.

Will
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future
From: joinonen@cs.joensuu.fi (Juha Oinonen)
Subject: Esperanto vs English
Summary: English in teaching, Esperanto as official language
Keywords: uu esperanto language
Organization: University of Joensuu
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:52:43 GMT

	Could we use Esperanto as a kind of official language (for naming
	UU, for instance) and give teaching in English. Currently,
	(virtually) no-one knows Esperanto, so it's not a good idea
	to force one to use it. Some day Esperanto may be more common,
	so it can be used more. 

	Juha Oinonen, joinonen@cs.joensuu.fi

-- 

	I'm a computer science student - what's your excuse?

Xref: sparky alt.uu.future:144 alt.education.distance:266