HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: viking@bnr.ca (Harold Henrikson)
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Reply-To: viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 13:39:33 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.084347.2292@ee.ubc.ca>, jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca (John Paul Morrison) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov05.130110.25440@bmerh85.bnr.ca> viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca writes:
|> >In article <1992Nov5.103251.7309@ee.ubc.ca>, jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca (John Paul Morrison) writes:
|> 
|> [ nonsense deleted ]
|> >|> 
|> >|> This is ridiculous. What kind of pathetic inferiority complex do you have?
|> >
|> Do we need bi-mood labelling here (smiley's for the humourously impaired)?
|> 
|> It serves you right. Sure, fall back on the, "oops, left out a smiley",
|> for all I know you could have meant that. If you don't know enough about 
|> netiquette to know that people may take offense at narrow minded, bigotted 
|> opinions presented as serious opinions; well get used to the flames.
|> And especially when they apparently make your country look bad and petty.

Gee, would the point have been clearer if I had substituted Serbian labelling?
Why would anyone think Quebec is a big enough sales market to the typical US
manufacturer to warrant French-English bilingual labelling.  That it happens is
due to CANADIAN government policy, not economic justification.

|> 
|> Next time, why don't you just post "Hitler was a great man, too bad he ran
|> out of time" or something like that.  Post that next time, and say "oops,
|> left a smiley out". 
|> 
|> I've taken my share of heat for mistakes; guess it's your turn

You're right - have to remember next time how stupid some people are vis-a-vis
economics.
|> 
|> >Harold Henriksen                    Bell-Northern Research
|> >email: viking@bmerh694.bnr.ca       Ottawa,Ontario,Canada 
|> 
|> -- 
|> __________________________________________________________________________
|>  John Paul Morrison                     |  
|>  University of British Columbia, Canada |  
|>  Electrical Engineering                 |   .sig file without a cause
|>  jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca              VE7JPM |  
|> ________________________________________|_________________________________

--
Harold Henriksen                    Bell-Northern Research
email: viking@bmerh694.bnr.ca       Ottawa,Ontario,Canada 

Pillaging and plundering were more fun than programming!
(Opinions are not my employer's and sometimes not mine)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:8337 can.politics:9407
From: thomas@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Thomas Jelonek)
Newsgroups: socs.misc,alt.canada,soc.canada,alt.politics.canada,mcgill.general,soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Canada and Quebec (was: REFERENDUM '92)
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:18:19 GMT
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Originator: thomas@gauguin.mcrcim.mcgill.edu


In article <1992Nov6.152738.13901@cs.mcgill.ca>, depeche@cs.mcgill.ca (Acme Instant Dehydrated Boulder Kit) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov4.230737.29054@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> thomas@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Thomas Jelonek) writes:
|> >
|> >|> in basic human nature.  Any of various forms of dictatorship is fine
|> >|> provided the dictator is truly benevolent and the populace all agree
|> >|> with the dictator on a few basic values - but that too we don't know
|> >|> how to ensure.
|> >
|> >I am unware of any historical precedent of a `benevolent dictator'. Thus I
|> >doubt the viability of this approach. Of course, I would not refuse the
|> >position of `benevolent dictator' if it would be offered to me.
|> 
|> Well, in Singapore, they got a list of human rights violations a mile long,
|> and you're not allowed to chew gum anywhere in the country, but the form of
|> government definitely qualifies as a benign dictatorship. It used to be one
|> of the scummiest islands in south east asia, with disease, drugs,
|> prostitution and crime rife. Now it's the cleanest place in that region,
|> with among the best quality of life ratings, economic growth, availability
|> of education, health care, and employment.  All this in the last 25
|> some-odd years.

Good example. I suppose another example of a benign dictator is Boris Yeltsin.

|> The dictator in place [I forget his name] is almost single-handedly
|> responsible for all this change. He's got a lot of power, but he definitely
|> cares about the people he governs, and while he cuts a few corners and
|> steps on a few feet, his intentions are admirable.

Is everything really so rosy in Singapore? I know there have been some
social costs related to Singapore's cosy realtionship with
multinational corporations. 	

|> But alas, nobody in the US would accept such a form of government.
|> 

I don't chew gum, but I still would not accept this form of government. In 
such a society I suspect that individual expression and creativity would be 
limited. I imagine it is like living in IBM.

Thomas
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: montas@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Hubert J Montas)
Subject: Re: Speaking French on newsgroups
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:07:08 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.060811.4349@julian.uwo.ca> wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne Smith) writes:
>In article <BxJD67.MAx@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> tdwebste@sparta.uwaterloo.ca (Timothy D. Webster) writes:
>>
>>>>pleinement une certaine intervention gouvernementale dans les echanges
>>>>commerciaux (et aussi dans l'education, les telecommunications, l'assurance-
>>>>maladie, etc.)
>>>
>>>This is ridiculous.  Do you really expect (or want?) me or any other unilingual
>>>anglophone to respond to this?
>>>I swear you're doing this to bother me, because I can see no other logical
>>>explanation...
>>
>>I am flame bate, but here goes. Purhaps you see what is like to speak a
>>language other than English. Whoever responded to your English article
>>translated it into French. Purhaps the person can express themselves more
>>easy in their native language. Maybe you should be as considerate and
>>translate the French into English! 
>>
>>Flame off.
>Yea, well, since we don't exactly know how good the person is at english,
>maybe we shouldn't make excuses for them.  He knows english enough to read
>my message and formulate a reply.

        Well, guys, this stuff happens on every newsgroup! There's no law that
says one shouldn't reply to somebody else in a different language. Especially
when communicating through a cultural newsgroup. Check soc.culture.french, it
is mostly in French but there is also some English. Soc.culture.germany is in
German and English, soc.culture.turkish is in Turkish and English. So, if people
speak both French and English in Canada, why should French posts be outlawed?
If you want to deal with Canadian culture, you have to know both French and
English. If you don't, then you should accept your own deficiencies and not
put the blame on those who know both languages! 
         So, stop belly-aching, and vive la difference!

            H.
From: mckay@alcor.concordia.ca (John McKay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Canadian anomalies
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:11:31 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec
Originator: mckay@alcor.concordia.ca


Immigration laws. One may apply to one province and then move freely
after being accepted.

Labour market. A contractor from another province was fined for working
in Quebec.

Notwithstanding clause. Removes one's protection under the law. What is
the ultimate appeal against the use of this?

Surete Quebec. Do they, or do they not, have jurisdiction within an Indian
reserve?

Are police public servants?

This is a country with some idiotic laws.

Need learning a language be a political act?

Why is Quebec society xenophobic?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: dat@thinkage.on.ca (David Adrien Tanguay)
Subject: Re: Speaking French on newsgroups
Organization: Thinkage, Ltd.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:40:41 GMT

wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne Smith) writes:
>Yea, well, since we don't exactly know how good the person is at english,
>maybe we shouldn't make excuses for them.  He knows english enough to read
>my message and formulate a reply.

But can he do it quickly enough to be feasible? I can read most of the French
articles posted, but it would take me an order of magnitude longer to compose
a French reply than an English reply. Even if his English is good, he is
probably much faster in French. The choice is likely between a French reply
and no reply.
-- 
David Tanguay       dat@Thinkage.on.ca  dat@Thinkage.com  uunet!thinkage!dat
Thinkage, Ltd.           Kitchener, Ontario, Canada          [43.40N 80.47W]
From: warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Date: 11 Nov 92 09:14:13 GMT
	<1992Nov9.175935.17729@julian.uwo.ca>
	<WARKENT.92Nov10103106@ltisun14.epfl.ch>
	<1992Nov10.142143.26566@julian.uwo.ca>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne---Laboratoire de
	Teleinformatique
In-reply-to: wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca's message of 10 Nov 92 14:21:43 GMT

If requiring bilingual labels is social engineering, then so are laws
that impose fines for littering.
--
Ken Warkentyne - warkent@ltisun.epfl.ch
                 Laboratoire de Teleinformatique, EPFL, Suisse.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne Smith)
Subject: Re: A French primer for Wayne (was: Labelling)
Organization: The John P. Robarts Research Institute, London, Ontario
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:13:27 GMT

In article <BxJKzy.594.1@cs.cmu.edu> clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
>
>   Do you do this just to bug me?  If I wanted a french conversation, I would
>   have posted in french.  
>
>Wayne, where did you grow up?  I'm surprised that you have had so
>little exposure to French.  You'd think that thousands of mornings
>alone with your cereal box and milk carton would have taught you
>something!  :-)

What the hell kind of comment is that?  What, because I grew up in Canada,
I'm supposed to genetically know french?  So It's my fault that someone
reads my comments (in english) and turns around and replys in french?  It there
a continuity problem here that you can't see?  (even with the smiley, I can't
understand why everybody is having a problem with my logic).

>I'm going to do a poor translation (word-for-word literal) of Normand's
>post here...

Thanks, but no thanks.  If I want to reply to Normand's comments, then I'll
reply to Normands comments.
>
(I read it anyways as I was deleting it.  Would it have been hard for Normand to
write it in english in the first place?  Again, thanks for the translation, but
I don't like carrying on 2 different conversations in the same post, besides, 
Normand would probably just reply to it in french.(insert half-smiley/grin here)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Bri Farenell ("Droopy"))
Subject: 2nd largest province?
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:02:23 GMT

Is Quebec the second most populous province in Canada?

BRI FARENELL
FARENEBT@CRAFT.CAMP.CLARKSON.EDU

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: The Bates Motel
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:36:46 GMT

thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
>clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen) writes:
>
>>Labelling laws are not there to promote national bilingualism.
>
>However, it is a symbol of Canada's language duality.

Right, and that's the source of politicization that has tried to
justify itself with "economic" arguments that run counter to what
profitable businesses actually practice (e.g., Quebec is significant
enough that advertisers continue to buy billboards en francais, law
or no law, rather than withdraw entirely in protest).  Once you take
out the politicization, the story changes ... as evidence, the high
prices for our bilingually-labelled exports in gourmet shops around
Manhattan (NYC) and Beverly Hills.

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare				Jesus Saves!
> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU 		Gretzky gets the rebound -
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			he shoots, he scores!
Newsgroups: socs.misc,alt.canada,soc.canada,alt.politics.canada,mcgill.general,soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: depeche@cs.mcgill.ca (Acme Instant Dehydrated Boulder Kit)
Subject: Re: Canada and Quebec (was: REFERENDUM '92)
Organization: Save the Missippi Riverboat Paddlewheel Fund
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:27:38 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.230737.29054@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> thomas@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Thomas Jelonek) writes:
>
>|> in basic human nature.  Any of various forms of dictatorship is fine
>|> provided the dictator is truly benevolent and the populace all agree
>|> with the dictator on a few basic values - but that too we don't know
>|> how to ensure.
>
>I am unware of any historical precedent of a `benevolent dictator'. Thus I
>doubt the viability of this approach. Of course, I would not refuse the
>position of `benevolent dictator' if it would be offered to me.

Well, in Singapore, they got a list of human rights violations a mile long,
and you're not allowed to chew gum anywhere in the country, but the form of
government definitely qualifies as a benign dictatorship. It used to be one
of the scummiest islands in south east asia, with disease, drugs,
prostitution and crime rife. Now it's the cleanest place in that region,
with among the best quality of life ratings, economic growth, availability
of education, health care, and employment.  All this in the last 25
some-odd years.

The dictator in place [I forget his name] is almost single-handedly
responsible for all this change. He's got a lot of power, but he definitely
cares about the people he governs, and while he cuts a few corners and
steps on a few feet, his intentions are admirable.

But alas, nobody in the US would accept such a form of government.


-- 
| Alan Ezust    depeche@cs.mcgill.ca   McGill University Computer Science    |
|------------------------Montreal, Quebec, Canada (?)------------------------|
|  I'm not much of a night person. I'm *definitely* not a morning person.    |
|  I'm not really an afternoon person either. Does this mean I'm a nobody?   |
From: vaps0de@prism.gatech.EDU (Dustin Emhart)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Releasing Results B4 the polls close (was Re: Referendum and the w
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:55:32 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In <92313.1601382893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> 2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (andy) writes:

>I think the concern wasn't as much that people in the West would switch their
>vote but simply that they wouldn't bother voting because the election was seen
>as over. In 1988 Bush was declared elected at 6:30 Pacific time, observers
>noted a sudden 50% or so drop of the number of people who voted following
>the announcement.

Exactly. Case in point: there is one very large precinct in the metro Atlanta
area with outdated voting booths. People were still in line at 11:30 waiting
to vote (after their state, Georgia, had been given to Clinton by the media,
Bush had conceded, etc.). Several people, having heard that the presidential
race was already decided, became disgruntled and left the line without voting.
It's hard to tell how many other places around the state this happened in.

There was also a Senate race being held in Georgia. The Libertarian (third-
party) candidate took enough votes to force a runoff election. The number of
votes that would have been needed to give one of the top two candidates a
majority was probably on the order of a few thousand--and this number of
people could easily have been stranded in line when the polls closed and early
results started coming out.
---
Dustin Emhart                       |  CS Majors: We do more after 11 pm than
Georgia Institute of Technology     |  most people do all day.
Internet: vaps0de@prism.gatech.edu  |        -- me

-- 
Dustin Emhart                       |  CS Majors: We do more after 11 pm than
Georgia Institute of Technology     |  most people do all day.
Internet: vaps0de@prism.gatech.edu  |        -- me
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: An American's View
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Oct26.145631.16390@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
	<Bx8yIG.Ct0@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:58:44 GMT

In article <Bx8yIG.Ct0@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:

   In article <1992Oct26.145631.16390@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> migod@turing.toronto.edu (Mike Godfrey) writes:
   >It's ironic that the separatist leader Parizeau speaks much better English 
   >than the (supposedly) federalist premier Bourassa.  Parizeau even loves the
   >monarchy that so many separatists despise.  But then remember that Parizeau
   >has the benefit of a British education :-)

   To add up to irony, the PQ government in 1976 had a more perfect
   "English" score than the previous liberal government in that the
   ministers were more fluent in English.

   I believe many federalists in Quebec are actually living far from
   an English reality (Lac St-Jean is an exception), that it they believe
   in Canada while doing like if it was not existing.

Lac St-Jean was very heavily on the NON side last week.  Montreal, on
the other hand, was quite heavily on the OUI.  (Bourassa's riding was
75% OUI.)

I suspect, however, you are talking about Francophones with little
access to English.

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
From: hlee@unixg.ubc.ca (Henry Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: An American(?) replies to "In Flanders Fields
Date: 10 Nov 1992 20:49:09 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: kynok.ucs.ubc.ca

In article <1992Nov10.001404.1317@eng.ufl.edu> garry@monarch.zoo.ufl.edu (Garry Peterson) writes:
>'In Flanders Fields' is an example of the crap which helps
>manufacture the death we remember on Nov. 11.

Mr. Peterson,

I may be in some misunderstanding to your statement ... however ...

You may not know the story, the background from which the poem was written.
The poem is -not- meant to "glorify war" in any way.  

Sir, if you believe the poem, as you say, "is an example of the
crap which helps manufacture the death ...," you insult me as
a Canadian, as well as the tens of thousands of Canadians who
served in the Great War.

Perhaps to enlighten you a bit further, a following post
has an explanation for the poem.  Yes, we're going to observe
Remembranc Day/Veterans Day in our different ways ... but let's
not get too hasty about judging a poem without looking at motivation.

-- 
* April 1917 - Vimy Ridge 
* IS IT NOTHING TO YOU ? ... LEST WE FORGET 

Henry Lee   <hlee@unixg.ubc.ca> // <lee@physics.ubc.ca>
From: mousseau@paun01.pa.msu.edu (Normand Mousseau)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Ethnic cleansing  (was  American views)
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:38:16 GMT
Reply-To: mousseau@paun01.pa.msu.edu (Normand Mousseau)
Organization: Michigan State University


In article <9211032258.AA24269@deepthought.cs.utexas.edu>, PLAWS@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU (Peter Laws) writes:

|> 
|> >To state that Quebec is a "French society" is to deny (as is often the
|> >case) the existence ofan english population in Quebec, greater in fact
|> >than some of the english populations of so-called english Canada.
|> >You imply that the treatment of french minorities outside Quebec is
|> >unfair. Do two wrongs make a right? It all just seems more like some
|> >kind of revenge rather than guaranteeing the prosperity of french
|> >society. Which I disagree is in any danger whatsoever.
|> 
|> >Pat Hertel                 Canadian Meteorological Centre

|> Here Here! to Pat's comment.
|> Sounds like *ethnic cleansing* to me!
|> Maybe next election, Canada will elect a leader with some kanakas to
|> put the Quebec racists in their place!
|> 
|> Peter Laws              |"The '90s are gonna make the '60s|   

    I always am afraid of using such terms as *ethnic cleansing* or
holocausts in trivial situations.  You remove the real meaning of these
terms and contribute to banalising horrifying gestures and the people
who made them.  I am very serious here, these are not sarcasms.  If
we want people to remember what really is holocaust and ethnic cleansing
and if we want our children to fight such horrors, we must reserve 
the use of these terms to what they really mean.   

	Although the situation of English Canadians in Quebec may
not be rosy and the situation of French Canadian outside Quebec
may be worst (although I have not seem many of you on the network being
offuscated at this fact), it does not compare in any order of magnitude to
what is happening in other parts of the world.  Please refrain of
using such powerful terms out of context.

		Normand Mousseau
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui)
Subject: Re: Labelling (was: Quebec)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 20:26:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.182702.27573@news.columbia.edu> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
>Well, the newcomers will have to adapt like the oldcomers before them
>and in tune with the rest of society around them ... how often have you
>seen a pub rock band with an asian face at an instrument?

One does come to mind, and they did have extensive Much Music coverage
a while back. But that particular Chinese is such a poor example of our
stock (ahhh, I tend to use language that many pure-bred Quebecois like to
use) that I'm not going to elaborate on it further.
-- 
Michael MY Hui  ~{~}  myhui@bnr.ca  Ottawa Canada
From: hornpete@uctvax.uct.ac.za (Peter Horn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: REPOST: !*! In Flanders Fields ... !*! : Excerpt/Epilogue
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:24:44 +0200
Followup-To: soc.culture.canada
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Cape Town

> 
> 	The poem was exactly an exact description of the scene in front 
> 	of us both.  
> 				
> 
> Henry Lee   <hlee@unixg.ubc.ca> // <lee@physics.ubc.ca>


Makes you wonder: exactly an exact?
I was always suspicious of realism and naturalism in poetry,
but this confirms it
Peter
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Horn 
German Department, UCT 
43 Trevor Road, Lansdowne 7764, Cape, Republic of  South Africa . 
Phone Home ZA-(021)696-1983		e-Mail: HORNPETE@UCTVAX.UCT.AC.ZA 
      Work ZA-(021)650-2936		Fax ZA-(021) 650-3726 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Horn, Walking through our sleep (Poems), Ravan Press 1974
Peter Horn, Poems 1964-1989, Ravan Press 1991
Peter Horn, An Axe in the Ice (Poems), COSAW Publishing House 1992 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ravan Press, P.O.Box 31134, Braamfontein 2017, Republic of South Africa
COSAW Publishing House, P.O.Box 421007, Fordsburg 2033, Republic of 
South Africa.
USA: Ohio University Press Fax (614) 593-4536
Britain: Central Books, Fax (71) 378-1811
Australia: New Era Books, Fax (02) 596-0045
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:8435 can.general:5318 can.francais:593