HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lstowell@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: REQUEST "Shoot yourself in the foot!..
Date: 12 Jan 93 01:26:37 GMT
Reply-To: lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation

In article <EIJKHOUT.93Jan10173845@cupid.cs.utk.edu> eijkhout@cupid.cs.utk.edu (Victor Eijkhout) writes:
>
>Hm. I thought I had this. Instead I found the following:
>
>WHAT DRIVING TO THE STORE WOULD BE LIKE IF OPERATING SYSTEMS RAN YOUR CAR
>
>MS-DOS:  You get in the car and try to remember where you put your keys.

  BZZZZZZZZZZT.  Wrong.  If you are using MS-DOS you CAN'T drive to
  the store.....because that would require stepping on the gas AND
  steering the wheel at the same time.   
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: regebro@stacken.kth.se (Lennart Regebro)
Subject: Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued Dec 1992
Organization: Stacken Computer Club, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 06:18:01 GMT

In article <1iddlaINNj8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aj923@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (P. J. Remner) writes:
>
>I would hate to have to use an interface like that.  I can see a "Copy"
>command, a "Move" command, a "Rename" command, and other basic commands,
>but NOT something like "Eject disk" or "Shut off computer".  Dumb little
>things like that aren't beneficial for powerusers like myself.  For
>chrissake, the power switch and disk button are right there! 

No, they're not! :)
There is no "Eject disk" button on a Mac. You're supposed to drag the disk
icon to the trashcan. Which always makes me feel like I'm erasing the
whole disk. Well, well. And whats wrong with a shutdown command? Try to
Turn off a Unix system without the proper shutdown sequence, and the sysop
will put you through the meat grinder.

Also, on VMS systems, when you want to talk to the tape you have to do
a lot of software commands, and I would belive that its the case on most
multiuser OS's. This is to make sure that no one else writes to it at the
same time, and that you dont take the tape out before you're finished
writing to it. So why not on a Mac?
-- 
Lennart Regebro             regebro@stacken.kth.se
Stacken Computer Club       +46-8 649 18 51
Don`t call before calculating my local time, please. This is GMT +1.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: What happened to "smart buildings"?  and three tangents
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:46:00 GMT

Well?  There was a time, only a few years (months?) ago,
when articles about "smart buildings" filled the popular
press.  I don't see 'em, now.  Did buildings get smart,
without me noticing, or is this another trend that's gone
sideways, or what?  I'm looking for answers from people
who know the construction and real estate industries, not
just speculative puffing.  ... although if we were specu-
lating, I certainly have a fund of stories about dumb
buildings ...

Marginally related:  have telephone switches truly become
more armored, or is that just another tall tale?  In 1969,
I remember my father just about having to wrestle the con-
tractor for his house to get him to put *two*-wire cable in
*some* of the walls, anticipating that *some*day there
might be a desire to have a telephone in a different room
than the planned one.  We definitely were made to feed like
blockade runners every time we bought another clunky hand-
set at KMart.  The rhetoric that always accompanied these
adventures in telecommunications was, "Well, The Phone
Company doesn't want you using any equipment it hasn't ap-
proved, because you might put a bad signal on the line,
and hurt its switches."  Was there some technical reality
behind this, or was it just polite language for AT&T to
say, "Mine, all mine, and you can't do anything about it!"?

Marginally related to that last:  really, it wasn't long ago
that having a telephone that was mobile enough to be
unplugged and plugged back in SOMEWHERE ELSE was an extrava-
gance even on the psychological level.  I have a vague
memory that, in some times and places (before WWI, Eastern
Europe?), it was not unusual for The Telephone in a house
to have its own room, that is, a cabinetwork arrangement
that would remind us of a telephone booth--that's inside
the house, right.  Am I remembering something real, or was
this a dream?

Yet another tangent:  are telephone boothes on the way out
in countries other than the United States?  I assume
lawyers and homeless have killed 'em in the States, but I
know I've seen them recently, even indoors, in modern parts
of other countries.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:18831 comp.arch:12219 comp.sys.intel:2989
From: kholland@hydra.unm.edu (Kiernan Holland)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: NeXTstep not running on Cyrix 486DLC (was Re: Apple IIGS...)
Date: 11 Jan 1993 09:05:29 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra.unm.edu

In article <C0Gznx.JCK@wimsey.bc.ca> bhenning@wimsey.bc.ca (Bill Henning) writes:
>>It should.  A 486 is much faster than a 386 of the same speed.  Case in
>>point: The 486SX/25 (like the one I'm using now) is a little faster than
>>an AMD 386/40, but the 486SX is upgradeable for $450.
>>
>>-- 
>>aj923@cleveland.freenet.edu (So now you listen, 'cause I'm omniscient)
>
>I am not sure that is the case. Did Byte not run some benchmarks about a
>year ago that showed that a 386/40 consistently beat a 486SX25 on almost
>every bencmark?

No that was a 486-SX 20Mhz. Yes AMD's are faster than a 486SX-20mhz 
but not the 25mhz models. I would buy a 486DX anyways since the 
487 math coprocessor is built-in.

>
>I have an Amd386/40, 64k cache, Cyrix FasMath 387 based machine at home,
>and I don't really notice a speed difference between it and the 486/33
>256k cache machine I have at work.
>
>Bill
>
>
>


Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,sci.math
From: bwatson@nyx.cs.du.edu (bruce watson)
Subject: Re: Number of numbers (Was Re: PI)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 00:47:11 GMT

In article <C0G8n5.KvC@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> hausner@qucis.queensu.ca (Alejo Hausner) writes:

> Reference: "A History of Pi", by Petr Beckmann.
>
I highly recommend this book. It is an interesting history, though
somewhat polemic, of mathematics with pi the thread. Petr reads and posts
the news. I wonder why he has not joined this discussion.


Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
Subject: Re: Operating Systems; retrocomputing
Organization: Generic American College Kids (G.A.C.K.)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 08:37:40 GMT
Reply-To: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
X-Posted-From: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

sarr@sinshan.citi.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) writes:
>
>Oh, dear!  Time for the old folks to pick on young Danny again. :-)

As a bona fide young folk (college freshman), I am extremely offended by that
remark.  I believe that I personally have done my part in picking on Master
Drucker, and I would appreciate it if you would not dismiss my contributions
to this newsgroup in such an off-hand fashion.  You are, however, free to
dismiss them after long and well-argumented critical analysis.

|-) |-) |-)

Seth L. Blumberg          \ Warning: This posting has been determined to cause
slb22@columbia.edu (play)   \ cancer in laboratory animals.  Please make sure
sethb@ctr.columbia.edu (work) \ that no white mice are allowed to read it.  
    > No one I know shares my opinions, least of all Columbia University. <
From: azog@spatula.rent.com (Billy D'Augustine)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued Dec 1992
Date: 7 Jan 93 00:56:06 GMT
Organization: A kitchen utensil somewhere in central New Jersey

In article <1iddlaINNj8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aj923@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (P. J. Remner) writes:

>
>-- 
>aj923@cleveland.freenet.edu (So now you listen, 'cause I'm omniscient)
>			      _______________________							     /  ___________________(_)				
>			    /  /\__________________							   /  /_/________________(_)				
>			  /______________________							  \____________________(_)				


You have GOT to change this signature! Yes, its cute, but got tedious
after the third time

-- 
Billy D'Augustine 
azog@spatula.rent.com

Evil walks behind me.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dnichols@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
Subject: Early Floppys (was: Re: "Stringy Floppy")
Organization: D and D Data, Vienna VA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 05:10:34 GMT

In article <1k55sH#49xgtH63MydQ6WKGGX8qpQYD=esr@snark.thyrsus.com> esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) writes:
>In <1993Jan9.201706.27670@EE.Stanford.EDU> Anthony E. Siegman wrote:
>>    Among the collection of bizarre early computer artifacts is the
>> "Stringy Floppy" (that was its product name) that was once marketed in
>> the Northern California area.  
>
>Yup, I remember these.   There was a period around 1979 when they looked
>like they might be serious competition to floppy disks, then an *extremely*
>crude and limited technology (capacities around 80K per disk).

	Well, you were limited to that for 5.25" floppies.  At that time,
the 8" ones were 250k or so.  (Double density later bought you 500K, as did
double sided. -- Double both got you 1MB.)  I used them a lot on my 6800 and
6809 systems, till I finally hung some hard disks on the OS-9 6809.  Oh!
The luxury of 5MB on a single disk. :-)

-- 
 Email:   <dnichols@d-and-d.com>  |  ...!uunet!ceilidh!dnichols 
		 <dnichols@ceilidh.beartrack.com>
 Donald Nichols (DoN.)  |   Voice (Days): (703) 704-2280 (Eves): (703) 938-4564
	--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: draper@ais.org (Patrick Draper)
Subject: Re: Anyone care to brag?
Organization: UMCC
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 04:31:16 GMT

Here's my story:

I'm an old timer in the computer business, (over 10 years now, and I'm 24).

My first real computer programming job was 4 years ago. I was required to
know C and how relational databases work. I didn't so I lied and learned C
quick!             

My current job started out as programming a point of sale system, and now
I'm doing installs, technical support, salesperson support, and bugfix
programming. Initially, the job was to be contracted out. A year and a half
ago, I was doing consulting work, and making very little money. I bid for
the job, and they offered me full time employment. I took it, of course,
without *quite* finishing my degree. (I will next fall Mom, I promise :-)

I think that setting yourself up in a consulting business should fall under
the catagory of "unorthodox methods of job hunting that really really work."
I was hired without showing a resume, without a formal interview, and
without showing any examples of my work. Maybe my boss' hiring practices
could be better, but I think it'll work most of the time. Coming in as a
consultant puts you on level ground, as a person established as an expert in
your field. Just that one fact makes life *much* easier. Also, while you're
hunting down leads and working contracts, you're making money. Eventually
that big fish will come along and offer you a job. It happens to every
consultant.


------------------////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\------------------
| Patrick Draper-ZBT       Disclaimer:  I can't control my fingers,        |
| draper@umcc.ais.org                   I can't control my toes! - Ramones |
| University of Michigan Computer Club                                     |
NO CARRIER                     We are a nation of laws, not people         |
------------------\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\////////////////////------------------
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Hidden Screens....
From: parnell_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (Pi-Rat)
Date: 6 Jan 1993 22:35:21 GMT
Reply-To: parnell_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Organization: Wellington City Council (Public Access), Wgtn, Nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: kosmos.wcc.govt.nz

Greatings, 
		Im looking for info on Hidden Screens, you know screens that
programers put into comercial software that only apear at a certain place,
after a certian key combination is pressed...

Any info about these would be welcome preffably IBM softwear



Paul
	Ciao, May The Dice Be With You
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|       We gaurantee fast service, No matter how long it takes...             |
|                                  EMail:PARNELL_P@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz         |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jc@sci.kun.nl (Jan Christiaan van Winkel)
Subject: Re: Number of numbers (Was Re: PI)
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:42:48 GMT

In <726145237.AA00000@blkcat.UUCP> Edward.Rice@p4214.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Edward Rice) writes:

>Magnus Olsson said to All: 

>  MO> Another is that a number is random if all N-digit sequences have the
>  MO> same probability of appearing in its decimal expansion. (A number that
>  MO> satisfies this is also called a "normal number").

>This doesn't match what I learned in stat.  The number:
> 
>    3.12345678901234567890 (repeating)

>has equal probability of a digit appearing, but isn't random (and the digits are
>not pseudo-random) by any interpretation of the term I have ever heard.

Read again:  MO said: that a number is random if all ***N-digit*** sequences have the
same probability of appearing in its decimal expansion.

In your number 3.12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890...
the sequence 00 000 0000, 001 0001 0001 22 222 2222 etc etc appears
NOWHERE, but the sequence 01 does.  Hence your number is not normal, since
00 and 01 do not have the same probablity of appearing!

To be normal,  all ***N-digit*** sequences must have the same probablity!
not just the 1-digit sequences as in your example.
--
___  __  ____________________________________________________________________
   |/  \   Jan Christiaan van Winkel                        jc@sci.kun.nl
   |       Alternative e-mail addresses: jc@oreo.atcmp.nl and jc@atcmp.nl
__/ \__/ ____________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki)
Subject: IQ Unlimited Joke
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 05:44:31 GMT

In article <1ia5mlINNge2@ub.d.umn.edu> cbusch@ub.d.umn.edu (Chris) writes:
>I dont know if this is actually related....
>
>   I was watching an info-commercail on the IQ unlimited computer.  It
>looked pretty crappy, and definately cheap.  Since it was only about a

Yes, and what makes it even worse is that they are marketing it as an
actual computing solution "it will make your kids computer literate!"

Yes, with it's 12 whole built in functions, no storage (they mentioned
none) and complete obscurity this wonder will make your kids about as
computer literate as Alphie the Talking Robot.  

At least Alphie was cute.

>Does anyone know anything about it???

They gave no specs, I thought I saw one at a local toy store (no joke)
a while back, I think I'll take a look and find out some of the specs
on it... who knows, I may be converted to a IQ Unlimited advocate. :)

>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Chris Busch     cbusch@ub.d.umn.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> C(o_o))        _                        "The use of COBOL cripples the
>   (=)         (_ -|- -|- is the         mind; its teaching should, 
>  --|--        language of choice.       therefore, be reguarded as a
>   /^\      Protest the use of BASIC!    criminal offense." -E.W. Dijkista
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>

--Jason Balicki
kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
From: jon@vector0.SAC.CA.US  (Dazed N. Confused)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Anyone care to brag?
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 16:11:37 PST
Organization: Vector Zero


     So I was on IRC a few weeks ago (don't ask me why) and I run
into two nice sysadmin programmer types.  Pretty soon we started
talking sysadmin techie talk.
     One of them, turned out, had a full CS degree and was
managing a medium sized Novell after a standard resume-fight
to get the job.
     The *other* guy, in true folklore fashion, told a story
of how he went into some industrial sector straight out of
community college (a great job of moving big metal pipes across
a construction site or something).  But one of his friends
showed him a computer...  whizz bang *splat*, he learns
some programming, goes for an interview, lies about knowing
C, and _gets the job_.  He learns C in two weeks and has been
happily managing a huge LAN with optic cables running through
closets ever since.

     I have to ask: does anyone want to brag?  I'd like to hear
about YOUR JOB.  Mine's relatively simple, managing a 10-station
Novell network of 286s on call, yay (but still a lucky [if you
call having to manage Novell "lucky"] break for someone still in
community college).

     How did you get to be the stunning piece of hackific work
you are today?

--Jon

   jon@vector0.SAC.CA.US                     Life is like a beet.
   DoD#2600

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Jeremy_Reimer@mindlink.bc.ca (Jeremy Reimer)
Subject: Re: let's start this off on the right bodily appendage...
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:57:58 GMT

> Steve VanDevender writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <STEVEV.93Jan6095611@miser.uoregon.edu>
> Posted: 6 Jan 93 09:56:11
>
> Org.  : University of Oregon Chemistry Stores
>
> In article <Jan.5.16.44.16.1993.18376@pilot.njin.net>
> shevett@pilot.njin.net (Shayde) writes:
>
>    In my early days of Usenetting, I was overawed by the witty response
> from
>    the Usenet Oracle.  I never did get a full answer on what exactly the
>    oracle is/was, but some of the responses that came from questions to
>    him/her/it made my week...
>
> The Usenet Oracle is not any one him, her or it.  The Oracle is them.
>
> Thou art the Usenet Oracle.  All that groks is the Usenet Oracle.
> --
> Steve VanDevender       stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu
> "Bipedalism--an unrecognized disease affecting over 99% of the population.
> Symptoms include lack of traffic sense, slow rate of travel, and the
> classic, easily recognized behavior known as walking."


I recall reading a whole batch of insightful stuff from the Usenet Oracle
that was posted to rec.humor.funny (this was over a year ago)  How does/did
one contact the Oracle directly?  (Email address, newsgroup, etc.)

Hey, if anyone can help me, it'd be greatly appreciated.  Sure beats digging
through dev/null.  :)


--
Jeremy_Reimer@ |"It turned out, as N-Man discovered later, that the black
mindlink.bc.ca | boat hadn't been after him at all.  It was full of riotous,
---------------| unemployed former James Bond villains enraged at the fall
aka THE JAGUAR!| of Communism in the Soviet Union."
---------------|
Stealth Sig#69 |  --From "N-Man #3: N-Man on Holiday"

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: siegman@EE.Stanford.EDU (Anthony E. Siegman)
Subject: "Stringy Floppy"
Organization: Stanford University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 20:17:06 GMT

   Among the collection of bizarre early computer artifacts is the
"Stringy Floppy" (that was its product name) that was once marketed in
the Northern California area.  

   The Stringy Floppy was a little box that connected to a TRS-80
Model I Level II (although the bus extender cables for connecting
various peripherals to the TRS-80 were almost impossible to find) and
contained a small tape recorder which accepted the small endless loop
tape cassettes used in mini-dictaphones (I guess I'm not really sure
it was an endless loop; maybe you had to rewind).

   You could then read and write multiple files to the tape cassette
under program control, replacing the very clumsy loading of programs
from an ordinary cassette recorder.  Files were not named, as I
recall, but you could move through multiple files on the cassette, so
it functioned something like a poor man's floppy drive for the TRS-80.
I think there was even a small local users' group in the Bay Area.

   I had one; does anyone else recall this?

Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:18587 alt.folklore.urban:32537 alt.religion.kibology:5640
From: ovr@lk-hp-1.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Proper pronounciation of 'Kibo'
Date: 5 Jan 1993 02:57:06 GMT
Organization: L{nsi-Uudenmaan Keisarillinen Polyteknillinen Koulu
Distribution: inet
Reply-To: ovr@snakemail.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
NNTP-Posting-Host: lk-hp-1.hut.fi

Timothy R Harrison (harrisot@cps.msu.edu) wrote:
: Isn't kibo declined
: 
: 	Kibo
: 	Kibas
: 	Kibat
: 	Kibamus
: 	Kibatis
: 	Kibant

Nah, that may be the way it is conjugated, but this is how it is declined:
	kibo		kibot
	kibon		kibojen
	kiboa		kiboja
	kibona		kiboina
	kiboksi		kiboiksi
	kibossa		kiboissa
	kibosta		kiboista
	kiboon		kiboihin
	kibolla		kiboilla
	kibolta		kiboilta
	kibolle		kiboille
	kibotta		kiboitta
			kiboineen
			kiboin
--
Ott-Vill R______________________
ovr@snakemail.hut.fi
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: iisakkil@lk-hp-13.hut.fi (Mika Iisakkila)
Subject: Re: Spectrum hardware (was Re: VCS processor)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 06 Jan 93 15:01:45 GMT

dhembrow@eoe.co.uk (David Hembrow) writes:
>I had hoped that having a better 12v supply would have fixed the video
>noise problem. It didn't.

No, you need to fiddle with the trimmer caps in the PAL encoder and
clock oscillator for that :) It's actually possible to get a very
clean picture out of it, but unfortunately the optimum moves as the
beast warms up.

Another obscure feature in the Spectrum hardware was the upper 32
kbytes of RAM. You need 8 32kbit DRAMs for that, but such a part does
not exist. At some point Texas Instruments (maybe others too) sold
them anyway - they were actually 64kbit DRAMs that had one or more
faulty bits in one half of them. There's a jumper on issue 2 & 3
boards to select U(pper) or L(ower) versions of the 4532 chips (issue
one had the RAM expansion on a separate board).

The fact that Spectrum used dynamic RAM always brought tears to the
eyes of the poor Commode owners, who had to deal out megabucks for
static RAM...

--
Segmented Memory Helps Structure Software
From: shevett@pilot.njin.net (Shayde)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: let's start this off on the right bodily appendage...
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:44:17 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Jeremy_Reimer@mindlink.bc.ca (Jeremy Reimer) writes:

>I'm interested in famous and infamous "Net Personalities"  Obviously Kibo
>would fit in to this category quite easily.  (But then again there is no
>single 'Kibo' out there, is there?)

>Or BIFF, THE GUY WHO TYPEZ IN ALL CAPZ.  Was there ever such a person or is
>this just general commentary on C64 users?

No, the character BIFF really exists, or existed.  Rah.  

>Others?  Is there some kind of list, some explanation that someone could
>post?

In my early days of Usenetting, I was overawed by the witty response from
the Usenet Oracle.  I never did get a full answer on what exactly the
oracle is/was, but some of the responses that came from questions to
him/her/it made my week...

I think there are truckloads of famous net.folks.  You have to narrow
down the search a bit.  In the golden days of netting for me, I was
always conversing witht the (at that time) unix-pc.* crowd.  Thad 
Floryan, John Milton - all my net heroes :)

(yeah yeah, everyon's going, 'who?' - but these guys were a great help
getting me started as an admin, which I enjoy as a full time position
now...

Dave Shevett
shevett@unipress.com
shevett@pilot.njin.net