HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sanders@iitmax.iit.edu (Greg Sanders)
Subject: Re: quotes from talk.religion.newage
Summary: Missing the point
Organization: Illinois Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:13:39 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.122854.14787@qiclab.scn.rain.com> mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) posted:
>
>The meaning of here and now is beautifully illustrated by a Zen story of a monk
>who was being chased by two tigers. He came to the edge of a cliff. He looked
>back - the tigers were almost upon him. Noticing a vine leading over the cliff,
>he quickly crawled over the edge and began to let himself down the vine. Then
>as he checked below, he saw two tigers waiting for him at the bottom of the
>cliff. He looked up and observed that two mice were knawing away at the vine.
>Just then, he saw a beautiful strawberry within arm's reach. He picked it and
>enjoyed the best tasting strawberry in his whole life!
>                              - Ken Keyes in "Handbook to Higher Consciousness"

A beautiful strawberry obscures the story.  Say just "a strawberry."  That's
the flavor of Zen.

--
sanders@iitmax.iit.edu (Greg Sanders)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: radams@cerritos.edu
Subject: Books by Yogananda(was Re: Rebirth / Reincarnation
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:47:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.194712.19243@qiclab.scn.rain.com>, 
jeffjc@cs.mcgill.ca (Jeffrey CHANCE) writes:
> 
> In a previous post you asked about what masters I was reading.
> Some books were recommended, including Yogananda's Autobiography
> of a Yogi. I would also recommend it, but perhaps even more
> strongly recommend Yogananda's The Divine Romance and
> especially Man's Eternal Quest. If you see these at a bookstore
> or in a library, just look at the table of contents, you'll
> see the topics cover almost everything. Also I recommend
> Sri Chinmoy's book, Death and Reincarnation, a small book
> with stuff you won't see anywhere else. 
> 

I would like to recommend also Yogananda's _Scientific Healing Affirmations_
which talks about the power of the mind and concentration. Prayers and
affirmations can utilize this power of the mind through the methods in
this book. Another gem is Yogananda's _Where There is Light_. These books
and tapes of Paramahansa Yogananda can be found through:
Self-Realization Fellowship (non-profit organization)
3880 San Rafael Avenue
Los Angeles, California 90065  or through any major bookstore.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: radams@cerritos.edu
Subject: Books on Ramana Maharshi
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 05:50:49 GMT

I recently got email from Ganesh enquiring about books on Ramana Maharshi
but I could not reach him at rg@sarnoff.com and I lost the original message
so I will post my reply. The two books on Ramana Maharshi I have are:

Be As You Are 
The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi
 edited by David Goodman
 published by Arkana paperbacks 1985
ISBN 1-85063-006-2

**

The Spiritual Teaching of Ramana Maharshi
 forward by C.G. Jung 1975
Shambala publications, Inc
  1920 13th Street

**

Don Smith sent me email last year on 3 other books
which I have not sent for yet:

1. Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi (app 600 pages).

2. Day by Day with Bhagavan (app. 400 pages)

3. "Guru Ramana" (160 pages)

Available from (I hope the address is still good):

Arunachala Ashrama
Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi Center, Inc.
342 E. 6th St
New York, NY 10003
(212)-477-4060


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Subject: Re: Metaphors and Reality
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:54:38 GMT

Pat writes:

> the 3 gates to deliverance are emptiness, signless, and wishless.
> i have found that emptiness and wishlessness have helped me settle
> into a greater peace and creativity.
> but i haven't really understood signlessness.
> i imagine that signlessness is related to the basic yoga practices
> of controlling the mind's tendency to continually perceive "things"
> from the sense streams, text and other visual perceptions, sounds, etc.
> When one is practicing Lazen, signlessness automatically is achieved
> somewhat since it takes much effort to read, study, play, etc.
> I would imagine that all sense data is unperceived in some
> advanced states of samadhi.

Emptiness, signless and wishless can't be described.
Only the difficulties and hinderances in their realization can be
described.

And, going from the quoted article, the hinderances are:

	- Believing that emptiness, signless, and wishless are three
	  "gates." They are one and the same. Touch one and all are
	  touched [just like touching the water of Ganga in Haridwar
	  or Banares; no matter where one touches the water, one has
	  touched the "entire Ganga."]
	
	- Emptiness and wishlessness are no different than peace and
	  creativity [it's like the Ganga's water is used for taking
	  a bath, quenching thirst, washing clothes, and refuse for
	  the dead bodies - the same water though.]
	
	- When all efforts to "understand signlessness" cease
	  spontaneously, "signlessness is stepped into."
	
	- Imaginations and speculations are hinderances.
	
	- Signlessness is "whole" and thus knows no relation
	  with "any other."
	
	- Mind is like the fog which disappears when the sun arises.
	  Why continue to explore the "disappearing fog?"
	  Why not fix the attention on the Sun?
	
	- Until one reaches the "mountain top," there is no use
	  saying: [this] "practice" will do this or that.

	- Samadhi is very real but has nothing to do with imagination.
	  Samadhi is where all imagination ceases spontaneously
	  [by itself.]
	
	- All the above is also part of the illusion - unreal.
	  Or as real as I, you, we, universe, gods, self-realization,
	  and, of course, the pattern 'xXx."
	
	
---raj

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
Subject: Songs of Death
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 04:24:19 GMT

portal!cup.portal.com!Tagi@uunet.UU.NET
WRITES:
>Who and what are we that we may be reborn? ... What, exactly, is
>it that we think IS reborn?  I have watched for this 'thing'
>called a 'soul' for years now.  No sign.  I'm unconvinced that
>there is a 'me' to watch or a 'soul' to see.

I Zend a song with the harsh edge of intellect and it came back
to haunt me into littlness.  By a missing affirmation I became
a fading whisper on the wind.

I ran into the garden and yelled into the impersonal sky, "Give
me a sign!"  My God, who speaks!  Is it I?
Coming back it seems only the old stone Buddha that spoke.


Waking a little, I ask myself:

What survives?  Everything.  Everything worthy survives, and
everything unworthy also survies as the gold is meaningful by
contrast with the dross.  Consciousness survives, and fruit of
memory, and the powers out of which thought and heart and will
are born.  All, all survive...

And I remembered my brother's words:

"Nothing is ever really lost, or can be lost. 
No birth, identity, form--no object of the world. 
Nor life, nor force, nor any visible thing; 
 
Appearance must not foil, nor shifted sphere confuse thy brain. 
Ample are time and space--ample the fields of nature." 
 
              CONTINUITIES, Walt Whitman 

"We all have been for all time...and we shall be for all
time...As the Spirit of our mortal body wanders on in
childhood, and youth and old age, the Spirit wanders on to
a new body:  of this the sage has no doubts."

(Bhagavad Gita)



"Death fills me with its abundance. 
What is this flood, overcoming body and sense? 
I feel the walls of my skull crack, the barriers part, 
The sun-flood enter--"

(Horace Traubel)

I saw that the spirit-I contains all, and all powers survive.

I forgot again, but was not forgotten.   I am unconvinced, I
said, and he faded me into very small; till finally I, a tiny
abstract point that burst into a sun, and the sun said:

I have seen a flame, who's colors never die.
A fire that lights and burns, but touches not the life.
A flame who's mystery and mission we seek.
The very life and soul of you and I.

And I remembered my brother's words:


"Men, events, and death do not dismay me.  Worlds mean nothing to
me.  Removed from this earth, dead, I shall expect new planets as
footholds for my forces. I shall not be disappointed. 
 
I look into myself, and if I find in me any goodness, 
any nobleness, any love, any upleaping ambition to create, 
I laugh, for these things are fragments  of supernatural radium,
of everlasting outpouring power. 
 
I have taken this power...as my own.  I have stripped all the
rags and trappings of heathenism from it.  I have discovered its
shattering stellar beauty.  I have found out it is what men
call---God."

(Frank Crane)


--                    
INTERNET:  jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jdavis
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: jeffjc@cs.mcgill.ca (Jeffrey CHANCE)
Subject: Re: 10 Questions on Spiritual Guidance
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:10:07 GMT

Greg Sanders wrote:
>There's a general thread of spiritual guidance in the questions.
>Generally, a disciple or student of a master is out to realize
>his/her true self and to equal or surpass the realization of the 
>master.  If the student's aspiration is pure, he/she tends to
>progress even if the master is impure or incompetent (it's how
>the universe works).  What is the master and what is not is an
>arbitrary distinction.  One just learns/grows (again, it's how
>the universe works).  Of course, you need a teacher and the teacher
>must be good or getting free will be uncertain indirect and much slower.

Well, yes I would say you need a teacher too, but that teacher can
be a teacher that is or is not still in the body. In the latter
case, you may have cases where people may say that a teacher is
not necessary, but inwardly they are being guided by a teacher,
perhaps someone they were physically with in a previous incarnation. 
Or, in a minority of cases {IMO}, God may work directly through the
seeker instead of using a guru through which to guide the seeker.
So, all you folks on sre who do not give much importance to
teachers, ever consider that you might have an inner connection with
a teacher but you just aren't consciously aware of it? Maybe you
were a disciple of this teacher in a past incarnation?

>Although I could be really mistaken, it seems to me that it is
>those who have never seriously worked deeply with a teacher who
>think that a teacher is superfluous.
>
>                              -- Greg

There is probably some truth to this.

Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------
|    Jeff Chance                       | That to which you   |
|    Dept. of Chemistry                | give your attention |
|    McGill University, Montreal       | becomes stronger in |
|    MAIL: jeffjc@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca | your life.          |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: mcfarlan@corona.math.washington.edu (Thomas J. McFarlane)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Metaphors and Reality
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:43:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Jul25.103330.19280
Organization: University of Washington, Mathematics, Seattle

I have written:
>>My view is that any religious cosmology (like a scientific or other kind of
>>cosmology) is ultimately of a metaphorical nature.  It is not a map
>>of reality but a map of imagination.  If we forget this and start taking
>>notions like rebirth as "real" then we will tend to get stuck in the
>>cosmology.

To which James Davis responds:

>Thoughts about the fundamental nature of the universe may be expressed in
>metaphorical or non-metaphorical language.  But the type of language used is
>independent of the reality or truth of the things spoken of.  The fact that
>great questions are phrased in metaphor has no essential bearing on whether
>they are real in the factual scientific sense.   

I am saying that all language is ultimately metaphorical.
Even "literal" language rests upon presuppositions that are in the
last analysis imaginative constructs (which is not to say arbitrtary).
Some metaphors have a more "factual" or "objective" or "real" nature
than others.  But in the end, they are metaphors just like the rest.

>I believe the thought Thomas is moving toward is a good one, namely that we
>should not confuse symbol with reality.  However, things are not "factual" or
>"imaginative" because they are commonly refered to in metaphorical terms.  
>Language does indeed function as a map and we should not confuse our maps
>with the territory they symbolize.  But this does not mean that some maps do
>not correspond to real territory.

Some maps may reflect more or less of the truth or reality than others,
but no map can capture it completely.  At best, any map is a metaphor,
and all metaphors break down at some point.

This is not to say that maps, because they are ultimately metaphors,
have no value or no truth to them.  Insofar as they point beyond themselves
to the truth, they have tremendous value.  But when we think some map is
"the" map, we are getting caught up in it, and it limits us.  Rather than
revealing the truth, it then hides it.

Regards,
Tom McFarlane
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon)
Subject: International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB)
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:03:48 GMT

The international network of Engaged Buddhists was 
founded in February 1989 to promote understanding and
cooperation among Buddhist countries, different Buddhist
sects, and socially conscious Buddhist groups; to facilitate
and carry out solutions to the many problems facing our
communities, societies, and world; to articulate the per-
spective of engaged Buddhism regarding these problems
and train Buddhist activists accordingly; to serve as a clear-
inghouse of information on existing engaged Buddhist 
groups; and to cooperated with activists from other spiritual
traditions.

To become a member of INEB, you do not need be a
"Buddhist," simply a concerned citizen interested in serving
others in the spirit of selfless compassion. Through a self-
determined annual membership contribution ($20 is recom-
mended), you will receive Seeds of Peace, a magazine
published three times a year by the Thai Inter-Religious
Commission for Development, be invited to the annual
INEB conference in Siam, and be encouraged to share your
insights, ideas, and time with other members. For further
information, contact any of the following:

INEB Secretariat
127 Soi Santipap, Nares Road
Bangkok, Thailand

Network of Engaged Buddhists
Plas Plwca, Cwmrheidol
Aberystwyth, Wales SY23 3NB

Buddhist Peace Fellowship
P.O. Box 4650
Berkeley, CA 94707, USA

Karuna Center
49 Richardson Road
Leverett, MA 01054, USA

------------------------------------------------------------------
posted by:   fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov  (Tawit Chitsomboon)
From: mw@frodo.ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Metaphors and Reality
Date: 27 Jul 92 17:53:26 GMT
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim

"xXx"

We are seeing the letters "xXx" above.
Well, that's not true. There's a pattern looking: "xXx"
But wait, that's still not right - we are sectioning out the "xXx" from the
white background.
And even when including this, the relative positions are surely part of the
picture.
And the time taken for comparison, the comparison itself?
Who's the being doing all this comparisons?
Yet another comparison of sections??
..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Wachowitz, mw@gandalf.ki.fht-mannheim.de, 75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: plains!epx.cis.umn.edu!anderss@uunet.UU.NET
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: IYMPC: International Yoga, Meditation, and Prayer Competition
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:55:17 GMT
Organization: ----

HA!! :-)

I'm saving this one!

-- 
__________________

anderss@epx.cis.umn.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: MORIARTY@VM1.NoDak.EDU
Subject: Re: Metaphors and Reality
Organization: ----
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:28:33 GMT

I agree that "ultimately all languages are metaphors."  Scientism is not

the ultimate metaphor; it is merely the metaphor in use among educated

people today.  That could change.  I recommend reading C.S. Lewis's

_The Discarded Image_ on that question.  More to the point, however,

is to call to mind that only dharma is absolute.  All metaphor works

with conceptual thinking, dharma reaches the mind beyond conceptual

thinking.

With palms together,

     Mike

     Email: Moriarty@vm1.nodak.edu

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: tucker@mitre.org (William Tucker)
Subject: Re: Metaphors and Reality
Keywords: Re: Metaphors and Reality
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:51:55 GMT

 Hi - 

  on the subject of metaphors, and analogies:

  I find myself speaking in them by way of using examples from reality to   
  explain things in conversation, as I grope for words pictures pop into my 
  head of things in a relationship like the one that I'm trying to describe.
  I think this comes from not carrying a model of reality around in my head and 
  instead trying to focus on perception and perceptual abilities, instead of 
  singular facts. I see the strand instead of the pearl and go to the
  individual pearl as need dictates. I think talking that way is a natural
  by product of thinking in a particular way, rather than a "religous" way of  
  talking. Thanks.

  Wm T.

.standard disclaimer

  


Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
Subject: Who are Buddha and Christ?
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 00:30:09 GMT

Ming Ean Chew asks: 

>What exactly is Buddhism? What does it teach us?? 
> 
>What do you think of Christianity? Is Jesus Christ the only GOD?? 
>
>What about LORD BUDDHA, do you consider him a GOD? 
> 
>Can anyone give me comparisons between Buddhism and
>Christianity?


Oh, many things these religions.  Bodies of half-truth filtered
through semi-sane humans.  Old mountainous concepts, dusty
sayings, simple truths, some word formulas that gleam brightly. 
Amazing communication phenomena, from scribes, and prophets half-
informed, mixtures perhaps of human and divine.  Certainly what
we see through present teachers and texts, is not the originals. 
Perhaps with a clear mind and a mighty leap of intuition we may
catch a glimpse of the originals.

Who are Christ and Buddha?  Perhaps co-workers for humanity. 
They teach us ethics and the common sense of wisdom and heart. 
To know in what sense they are God, we would need to know in what
sense we are God; who could discover God but the God in us.

"Only" is for people half-formed imaginations, who relize there
is ONE, but try to make that one personal, concrete, and limited. 
Only" is for those who don't see the obvious God on all sides.

I seem to see more God in Buddha and Christ than in a long list
of other teachers, but part of it might be by limited vision and
experience.  I haven't visited the planets circling others stars,
but they must have Christs and Buddhas appropriate to their
needs.

CHRIST                   BUDDHA
Love & wisdom            Wisdom & love
  

--                    
INTERNET:  jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jdavis
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Subject: More on help from Yogis
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:21:54 GMT

I was asked:

> Your recent posting about Great Yogis being able to
> influence a person geographically far away thru
> consciousness soundid very interesting. Could you write
> me about this process? 

This process is something that all of us are capable of doing.
Perhaps there are times when you know that something is wrong with your
family or friends without talking to them.  Maybe there is a feeling or
a bad dream.

In my case, I knew when my pet dog that I grew up was in trouble.  I called
my parents and they told me that my pet was sick.  Wait, is a dog sending
consciousness across a distance?  Yes, this is consciousness, but it is
at a personal, emotional level.

The Yogis can transmit at a impersonal, selfless level.  These transmissions
can also be detected, but the system for detection usually is not attuned
to this sort of consciousness.

What does this mean?  Well, the best way to describe this process is with
chakras, or the energy centers of the being.  In Hindu, Buddhist, Tantric
and many other traditions, you will see descriptions of these "energy 
centers."

Each energy center can be considered a transmitter and a receptor.  However,
the degree to which one can transmit or recieve differs, and the degree
to which one is aware of these transmissions differs.

I am not trying to prove or justify chakras, rather use chakras as a 
way to describe some processes that we may experience.

In short, the ones that work on the personal level are at the root, the
gonads, and the solar plexus (stomach).  These deal with emotional and
physical processes.  For example, the bad feeling I got about my dog
worked through the solar plexus region.

People with awareness teach us to become capable in our higher chakras, 
like the heart.  Love and compassion are central aspects of religion 
for many good reasons.

If people are in the process of growing and are in need of help, then
those beings with consciousness (Yogis) can detect you and help you in your
process of growth.  This is the sort of process that I am talking about.
Making petitions for help may aid in this process by getting the attention
of these beings who can aid you.

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: portal!cup.portal.com!Tagi@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Work-study exchange offer
Organization: ----
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:57:30 GMT

9207.22 e.v.  [Bay Area Posting]


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Where:   SAN JOSE, CA, near public transportation


What:    WRITER/MONK/MAGE seeks work-study exchange

If you have editing, typing and organizational skills and can be
available a day or two a week, consider this offer...

I need someone to help me organize and edit my writing.  Here at
the House of Chaos we have a fair sized reference library and a few
resident urban shaman.  I would gladly give you unlimited access to
my writings and share studies if desired.  My background is in
eastern and western philosophy, western occultism, psychology,
mysticism and religions the world over, mythology and symbology.


And:     If you would be interested in such a joint venture, please phone
         for an interview: (408) 266-2819 or email me.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!

Fr. Nigris (ask for Tagi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern