From: me@halfab.ka.sub.org  (Udo_Meyer)
Subject: Re: animals in research.
Organization: Udo Meyer, Postwiese 32, 7746 Hornberg, Germany, 49 7833 1425
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 00:16:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.192540.6111@samba.oit.unc.edu> itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg  
Popken) writes:
> In article <1992Nov15.033710.470@halfab.ka.sub.org> me@halfab.ka.sub.org  
(Udo_Meyer) writes:
> >In article <1992Nov10.214528.6725@samba.oit.unc.edu> itsmine@med.unc.edu  
(Greg  
> >Popken) writes:
> >> In article <1992Nov9.235142.321@halfab.ka.sub.org> me@halfab.ka.sub.org   
> >(Udo_Meyer) writes:
> >> >In article <1992Nov8.210634.755@halfab.ka.sub.org> me@halfab.ka.sub.org   
> >> >(Udo_Meyer) writes:
> >> >> 
> >> >> Animals died without any reason again. And many humans died also. :-(
> >> >> 
> >> >Oh Oh. Bad news again. Just seen a TV-report about a new scandal
> >...
> everone of everything.  I'm sure your brothers case is very difficult to
> diagnose.  Don't blame that on medical research.

On the first glance it has nothing to do with animal tests.
But many times here the pros say that animal tests saves life.
In his case no animal test is saving his life.
And in the other mentioned case animal tests did not save lifes too.
They showed the correct result (the medicine was 'toxic') but
nobody mattered. So the animals lost their life useless.
In other cases animal tests did not show the correct result.
So the animals lost their life useless and some people sadly too.

> In regard to your question asking if researchers are the only one capable
...
> comes to legal matters I value the opinion of a qualified lawyer (possible
> oxymoron) than a layman.

How many laws of physics or biology etc. have been altered?
Even Mr. Einstein :-|> has made mistakes.
How can you be shure that the specialists are not wrong in our concern?
And how many specialists do not agree with the todays animal test procedures?
To err is human.
And in an old affair a mighty authority had made the 'mistakes'.
This Galileo Galilei had to learn. Todays cathedral is profit.

> >The company, precise its managers which sold the bad medicine are suited
...
> It sound like the problem is in the companies or in the laws of these
> countries.  Not in the validity of animal research.

Another reason of unnecessary animal research is the fact that in
case of higher profit the results of research are ignored.
Shudder about the affair of the (US blood) plasma industry and 'factor 8'.
Their behaviour killed thousands of people all over the world and many
will die the in next future. Even after warnings from CDC they produced
AIDS polluted plasma. Yes, I got this information from a TV-report again
(but it may be a simple task for you to get the information also).
In this case there was a procedure to decide which of the plasma is bad.
A procedure found by research. But nobody took care.
Why killing animals if nobody uses the results?

> >> Do you have any idea of the hundreds of thousands of times that animals
...
> >suffer unnecessary. Many tests and the quantity of tests are not necessary.
> 
> How do you determine this? Do you always take other peoples word for it?

No, I do not take other peoples word for it. But some people I trust more.
Remember all the ugly pictures of animal tests made in former times.
This time TV-teams and reporters are not allowed to show all of the things
that happen behind walls. Why? What is hidden there? Shady torture-chambers?

> >> How do you propose we develope new treatments for patients?
> >Allright. You got very useful sensors and systems to look into patients
...
> computer.  If we had enough information to simulat a body we wouldn't need
> to do any more research because we would already have all the answers.

Yes. Today you cannot simulate all reactions of a body in a computer.
And the other procedures with cell cultures etc. cannot simulate
a whole human body. But no animal can simulate a whole human body also.
You have to test it with humans to be shure.
But I think that the other (non animal) tests can give many of the
hints that you need to know for the next direction of the project.

Udo.