HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 02:24:07 GMT

kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
#
#From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
#
###But are they considered citizens and have equal rights?
#
#     It seems that you are acustomed to the Israeli law that discriminates
#among Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens.  
#But that is not the case in the
#Arab countries.  I've lived in Beirut and went to school which was in
#a district heavily populated by Lebanese Jews; so I ought to know that they
#were full citizens.

I understand that in Iran, Syria and other countries Jews are not allowed
to vote and suffer many other restrictions. Is this true or not?

##Also, there are many Jews who work for the
##PLO (that is the Palestine Liberation Organization).
#
###Care to elaborate and give numbers? I have never heard of this.
#
#  I do not have any numbers but we knew a few Jews who did work for the PLO.
#
#Besides, it is not the figures that matter but rather the notion that
#Palestinian Jews work for the PLO to liberate their occupied country.

I think that numbers *are* important and that the number of Jews that
"work for the PLO" (doing what, BTW?) is zero or extremly small. The
vast majority of Jews don't view Israel as occupied.

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 09:58:42 GMT

bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:

>>>There was, after the cannanites, a Jewish, Israelite kingdom, which
>>>was destroyed by the Babylonians, and then a second one whihc was
>>>destroyed by the Romans.
>>
>>>Jews then remained in Safed, Jerusalem, and other places around Israel
>>>for the next 2000 years.
>>
>>An irrelevantly small number did, yes.

>You seem to be making the argument that a forced transfer of a population
>invalidates the claim of those who were forced to leave if very few are
>allowed to remain.  

No, I'm saying that it makes no difference whether there was a 
handful of Jews living in Palestine or none at all.  I've already
said elsewhere that I don't accept land claims based on possession
once upon a time.  

>                    Clearly, then, if Israel expels all but a few thousand
> Arabs (an irrelevantly small number, yes?) from Israel and the territories,
>then you will argue that Arabs have no claim on the land and no right to
>return.

If you are an Israeli Jew in the year 4000 you will probably laugh
at the idea that the descendants of the Palestinian Arabs of 1948
have a right to return to the place they were kicked out of 2000
years before.

>Meir Kahane would have loved you, my friend.

David might disagree.

>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu

Brendan.
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 09:39:27 -0400 
From: Joshua Saypol <jscm+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Kozo Okamoto

Long since traded for something or other Jake.
If I remember I don't recall thinking it was such a bad deal at the time.
Sure, the guy deserves to be locked up for the remainder of his natural
life but why should Israel have to provide him food, clothes, and shelter.

And Danny was right about the celebration when he was released.  The picture
I remember from the newspaper had him being carried around.

Josh


*************************************************************
*                        JOSH SAYPOL                        *
*-----------------------------------------------------------*
* Masters Student                | 333 Morewood Ave. #4     *
* Information Networking Inst.   | Pittsburgh, PA 15213     *
* Carnegie Mellon University     | (412) 612-1131           *
* Graduate Studies Program       ---------------------------*
* Bell Communications Research, Piscataway, NJ              *
*                                                           *
* Brown U. '92                                              *
* Sports: The Redskins, Lacrosse                            *
* Music: Rush/The Who/AC//DC/Angry Salad/U2/etc.            *
*                                                           *
*       "I think I'm going bald" -- Neal Peart, Rush        *
*************************************************************


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 03:40:16 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.013913.18879@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <22554@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>|> In article <1992Oct5.154718.3438@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>|> > By the way, ultra Orthodox Jews also do not serve in the IDF. Does
>|> > this mean that Israel discriminates against Jews as well? Or maybe it
>|> > is merely a sign of Israel's understanding that certain people CAN NOT
>|> > serve in the IDF - and Israel's refusal to force service upon these people.
>
>|> Apparently, the benefits associated with military service are provided
>|> to what the Israelis term "Yotzei Tzava", all those called up for
>|> military service.  That does not mean anyone who *actually* *served*,
>|> but anyone called for service, even if he/she was later released from
>|> the duty to actually perform military service.
>|> 
>|> Now, Arabs are released en masse -- they are not even called up -- and
>|> are therefore refused benefits (except for those who actually serve, of
>|> course).  On the other hand, Ultra-Orthodox religious students are
>|> released on a case-by-case basis.  They are called for an initial
>|> interview, and after showing proof of their Yeshiva-student status are
>|> released.  Therefore, they *are* eligible for the considerable benefits
>|> associated with military service even though they do not end up serving.
>
>Can you provide a source for this information? It seems to me
>rather hard to believe that the Ultra-Orthodox receive any special
>privileges only for being called for an initial interview.

When I attended Hebrew U. in Jerusalem I knew a girl who was an Israeli
citizen raised in the U.S. (as am I) She pretended to be Ultra Orthodox
in order to avoid military service.  I do not recall that she received
any special privileges.  

>I know of many Israeli who are a bit unhappy that the Ultra-Orthodox
>do not have to serve. This leads me to believe that public sentiment
>would not be all too well disposed to the UO receiving any sort of
>special treatment for being given permission not to serve in the IDF.
>
>|> The same holds for other Jews who are released from their duty for
>|> medical or other reasons.  For example, it is not unusual for the IDF to
>|> have an oversupply of female Jewish soldiers, in which case they will
>|> notify a substantial number of Jewish women that they are relieved from
>|> the need to join the IDF.  Such women are *not* denied the benefits
>|> associated with military service -- unlike Arabs.
>
>Of course, this is different. Those who are WILLING to serve do
>receive whatever privileges others would - if the fact that they are
>not required to serve is decided by the IDF (i.e. too many female
>soldiers).
>
>Note though, that such people are willing to serve and are then
>excused from duty because the IDF thankfully does not need them.
>
>Harry.
>
>|> Yigal Arens
>

Keren  
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Serbia etc.
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:06:41 GMT

In article <26595@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
#Article in todays "Guardian":
#
#Serbs court Jewish veterrans as 'natural allies'
#
Oh, Germy, you are becoming a nuisance. Quite a few posts on tpm have
addressed the tragedy of what is happening in Bosnia, it was condemmned
both by Israel and Jewish organizations outside of Israel. Furthermore,
Israel, which is not a rich country, flew aid and doctors to help
refugees in those areas.

So what was the goal of your idiotic post? And what is the goal
of your posters in general? The more I read you, the more it seems
the guy who suggested you to "f**k off, a**hole" was right.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Hizbolah Attacjks SLA, UNFIL
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 02:51:08 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.173357.28297@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>From Israel Line, Sept 30:

I have no love for Hezbollah, but this use of the word 'terrorists' is
getting to be downright comical.   "Hundreds of Terrorists"? 


>
>Hundreds of Hizbullah Terrorists Attack SLA Posts in South Lebanon
>
>Today's HA'ARETZ reports on the Hizbullah attacks Monday on South
>Lebanese Army posts in the Security Zone. "Such an attack hasn't
>been in years: hundreds of Hizbullah people shelled 11-15 SLA
>posts," said a senior Israeli officer in the IDF's Northern
>Command. He added that fifty Hizbullah terrorists attacked the main
>SLA post near Rashef village. Two SLA soldiers were killed in the
>attack, including the commander of the post, with four others
>injured. The soldiers of the SLA posts responded by returning fire
>at the Hizbullah and then chasing after them. During the chase,
>four Hizbullah terrorists were killed and several injured. While
>retreating, a Hizbullah terrorist fired an Rocket Propelled Grenade
>at a UNIFIL post, trying to open a UNIFIL blockade. A UN observer
>from the Irish battalion was killed and another one injured.
>
>
>Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
>at all.  How true that is.      


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                FREE       Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu              THE       School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043     KUWAITI       Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739        POWS       Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:14:02 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

From usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!bc744 Wed Sep 30 12:48:26 EDT 19

{In Article 52029, Mr. Kaufman Writes}:
>   Khaled Shammout seems to forget one very important truth about
>the Jews who live in Israel.  A rather large percentage ARE Arab.
>They are simply not Muslim.  There are Iranian Jews, Syrian Jews,
                                        ^^^^^^^
>Egyptian Jews, etc.  Are these Jews somehow not Arab?  It is true
>that they are not Muslim, but they most certainly ARE Arab!  Have
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the Arab countries now decided that if one is Jewish he or she is
>not Arab?

   First of all, the Arabs have never used religion as a mean to classify
people as Arabs or non-Arabs.  There are thousands upon thousands of Arab Jews
who are still living in Arab countries.  And yes, these Jews are (and they
consider themselves) indeed Arabs.  Also, there are many Jews who work for the
PLO (that is the Palestine Liberation Organization).  Yes they are Jews, but
they are also Palestinians and are ARAB PALESTINIANS.
     Second, when the Arabs refer to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, they
talk about PALESTINIANS (regardless of religion) and ISRAELIS.
BUT it is the Israeli government that speaks about the ARAB population and the
JEWISH population.  You see who discriminates??
     And finally, the IRANIANS ARE NOT ARABS !!!!!!!  And let offer you a piece
of advice. Before you start discussing complicated and intricate issues such as
the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, you may want to learn the different groups of
peoples in the Middle East just so you would know who is involved in the
conflict and who is not.

Wa Salam
----------------------
Khaled Shammout
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: To Yigal Arens
Date: 6 Oct 92 00:35:14 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University


     Thank you Yigal Arens for shedding the TRUTH, and nothing but the TRUTH.
To be fair and unbiased now a days is very hard; and you are unique, Yigal.

Thank You

Wa Salam
-------------------
Khaled Shammout
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Organization: LC
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:19:31 GMT

In article <3896@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>In article <1992Sep26.000057.21093@panther.mot.com> ronf@panther3.panther.mot.com (Ron Feigen) writes:
>>
>>  jle and friends will fabricate
>>anything they possibly can if it involves damning Israel.  It has nothing to
>>do with Kuwuat or Iraq.  If there was a terrible eathquake/storm that destroyed
>>parts of the Arab world jle would come up with stories of a secret Israeli
>>earthquake/hurricane machine.

:) :) :D :) D=:D &*^&*^(&*}i[_}(
I wonder if israel has any connection with Hur. Andrew that screwed
up the Southern States in the US ?   May be israel was punishing Bush
for delaying the $10 Billion a year, every thing is possible now adays! 
:) :) :D :) D=:D &*^&*^(&*}i[_}(

>You may believe, in your own mind, that the Gulf War had nothing to do
>with Israel; and you may certainly support Mr. Anwar and friends who
>also try to reduce the severity of the crimes against Iraqis and
>Palestinian people by justifying U.S. intervention and protection of
>its interests, including Israel, in the Middle East.  And you can
>certainly condemn people like Mr. Elghani, who are tired of these
>excuses and injustices, but it only leads to one conclusion.  And
>that is, racism and bigotry.

Well defined Anisa.

jle
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz on Bosnia
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:36:37 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.141540.10701@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>[Article in which Dershowitz tries to claim that equating the Holocaust with the
>Serbian "ethnic cleansing" attrocities is somehow anti-Jewish deleted]
>
>I think that Dershowitz is completely in opposition to the mainstream Jewish
>community in the UK. There have been many letters in the British press incuding
>one from the President of my Oxford College, Wolfson making precisely this
>comparison.

To an extent he's right and to an extent he's wrong. I know of nobody
sane, Jewish or not, who will say that the killing of a smallish number
of civilians thorugh horrific tactics is the exact equivalent of the killing
of a massive number of civilians through horrific tactics. I also know
of very few people, Jewish or not, and none whom I respect, who do not
recognize that the tactics and the effort is chillingly similar. I'm
known on other newsgroups for raising Cain every time somebody tries to
say "X is another Holocaust" about their favorite political problem; this
*is* the one exception I make. I'll tolerate that comparison in this case.
But that shouldn't obscure the fact that the scales are vastly different,
and that this fact matters.

All of this relates to the charge that making a Holocaust/Bosnia com-
parison is wrong. The charge that making such a comparison is antisemitic
is simply stupid.

>Dershowitz is a lawyer whose concerns range from laudible charity cases to a
>unique brand of high class ambulance chasing. He has a dangerous tendency to
>equate opposition to his political views with anti semitism. Since his chief
>antagonists seem to be Yigal Arens and Noam Chomsky (Chomsky vs Dershowitz is
>the Cliche' middle east debate) this is a strange view indeed.

Not at all. The head of the American Nazi Party for a long time was
born Jewish. It's a well-known phenomenon.

I don't say it's *true* in this case, mind you. I tend to be VERY
careful with the way I throw around charges of antisemitism... crying
wolf is not a tactic that appeals to me. I prefer it to have punch
when I *am* forced to say it. But the fact that somebody is Jewish
does not automatically mean they are not antisemitic; you'll have
to go to other evidence if you want to claim that.

>Phill Hallam-Baker

	-Nora

-- 
"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Date: 2 Oct 1992 23:20:54 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) says:

>|> #   First of all, the Arabs have never used religion as a mean to classify
>|> #people as Arabs or non-Arabs.  There are thousands upon thousands of Arab Jews
>|> #who are still living in Arab countries.  
>|> 
>|> But are they considered citizens and have equal rights?
>
>My understanding, in Syria they are citizens and have equal civil rights,
>except they are not allowed to serve in the army. They are even allowed to
>have the Sabath on Saturday.
>
But, until recently, they weren't allowed to leave the country, even as
tourists, without leaving their families as hostages.  Even now, we see
little evidence that Assad is honoring his pledge to allow Jews who want to
leave to do so. 
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: gilgamesh@csource.oz.au (Benjamin Hurwitz)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 92 13:28:36 +1000
Reply-To: gilgamesh@csource.oz.au
Organization: Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia

rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) writes:

> In article <1992Sep30.171402.15999@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kshammou@magnus
>
> >Also, there are many Jews who work for the
                   ^^^^

> >PLO (that is the Palestine Liberation Organization).  Yes they are Jews, but
> >they are also Palestinians and are ARAB PALESTINIANS.
>
> There are Jews who work for the PLO (unfortunately), but they are
> not Arab (by whatever definition you wish to use) but [mainly] a group called
> Neturei Karta (unless you now wish to include a group of immigrants
> from Hungary as Arabs.  Make up your mind.
>

I would hardley categories them as "many", as even within the Neturei Karta
the vast majority do nothing physical against the sate of Israel... and the N.K
are definitely a minority of a minority of a minority of Jews
(Satmar/chasidim/orthodox/jews) who are not that numerous to begin with..
The Number is absolutley and relatively microscopic.

Benjamin

From Benjamin Hurwitz      gilgamesh@csource.oz.au
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: ISRAEL DESTROYED IRAQ (Re: Anti-Arab racism on the net)
Organization: LC
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 18:36:53 GMT

In article <92273.060532RPR1ZAK@TECHNION.BITNET> Uri Zakai <RPR1ZAK@TECHNION.BITNET> writes:
>for some reason jle claims that the iraqi forces ecountered the israeli forces
> during the 1973 war and were able to push the israeli forces from the
>40km point (from damascus) back to the golan heights.
>jle urges the reader to read and be dazzled by the glorious victory.
>
>the only thing i dont understand is : jle did u really think
>that nobody is going to check that absurd statement ? or were u so fed
>up with those stories that u started to belive them yourself ?

Simple, if your story is the true one (which I doubt very much), then
why did the israeli's stop from advancing towards Damascus.  Nothing stopped
them from advancing towards Beirut you know.  Ha Ha Ha Got you here.

Besides, why did they surrender the city of Al Qunaitara, captured 
since 1967, to the syrians.  Was there a reason?  Since they were
at peak as you claim, they should have kept it, since they already
had it for 6 years.


Also, why didn't they take Damascus then ask the Egyptians 
to give them back the Barlaif (sp?) line at Sainai , or else.

jle


>
>uri zakai


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Date: 29 Sep 92 02:21:09 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <3896@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>In article <1992Sep26.000057.21093@panther.mot.com> ronf@panther3.panther.mot.com (Ron Feigen) writes:
>>
>>  jle and friends will fabricate
>>anything they possibly can if it involves damning Israel.  It has nothing to
>>do with Kuwuat or Iraq.  If there was a terrible eathquake/storm that destroyed
>>parts of the Arab world jle would come up with stories of a secret Israeli
>>earthquake/hurricane machine.
>
>You may believe, in your own mind, that the Gulf War had nothing to do
>with Israel; and you may certainly support Mr. Anwar and friends who
>also try to reduce the severity of the crimes against Iraqis and
>Palestinian people by justifying U.S. intervention and protection of
>its interests, 

Or you may continue to listen to the lies and fantasies of
Anisa (I've mercifully dropped the Mr/Ms/Mrs) who hypocritically
advocates the principles of self-preservation on her own people's 
behalf but refuses to do for any others if she finds it politically
inconvenient.

>including Israel, in the Middle East.  And you can
>certainly condemn people like Mr. Elghani, who are tired of these
>excuses and injustices, but it only leads to one conclusion.  And
>that is, racism and bigotry.

Racism and Bigotry.  Racism and Bigotry.  Racism and Bigotry.
Racism and Bigotry.  Racism and Bigotry.  Racism and Bigotry.
Racism and Bigotry.  Racism and Bigotry.  Racism and Bigotry.
Racism and Bigotry.  Racism and Bigotry.  Racism and Bigotry.

If you say it enough without reasons maybe you'd get someone to
believe it.  If only it applied to something being discussed
in this instance.  Ah, does this have something to do with 
counting the Emir's wives?  

You will have to let us all know what you find in this hard-hitting
investigation of yours.  Was it three wives?  Was it thirty wives?
Will it satisfy Anisa's insatiable quest for the truth?  Will she 
attain political nirvana when uncovering this dark secret?  Will
it provide all the answers to the problems facing the Middle East?
Stay tuned...


>
>Have a wonderful day and,
>L'Shenna Tovah 
>
>Anisa
>


-Mr. Anwar
-- 
Mr. Anwar Mohammed           COUNT       Mr. Graduate Student
misteranwar+@cs.cmu.edu        THE       School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043       EMIRS       Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739       WIVES       Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast