HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: broder@src.dec.com (Andrei Broder)
Subject:  Gypsies in Romania (was Re: Gipsies ...)
Reply-To: broder@src.dec.com
Organization: DEC Systems Research Center
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 03:23:42 GMT

In article <188t7mINN9rl@agate.berkeley.edu>, Radu Tomescu  () writes:
> 
> Truth of the matter is that Gypsies have a much higher propensity, as a group
> to commit crimes. Of course, this is just the result of hundred of years of
> economic and social discrimination. 

I think that ``propensity'' is a bad choice of words (probably
inadvertent, given the next sentence) since it implies an innate
quality. No doubt the criminality rate is much higher among Romanian
Gypsies than in the general Romanian population. (Exactly how much
higher I don't know - most evidence is anecdotal) Maybe part of it is
cultural.  But does it justify the incredible vilification they face?

About a year ago I was in Romania and spent quite a bit of time
reading the newspapers.  The disparagement of Gypsies was startling.
I am not talking about jingoistic mudslinging rags like Europa and
Romania Mare, but mainstream newspapers,  Romania Libera and others.
Otherwise rational people would blame the Gypsies for everything under
the sun, and accept urban legends at face value. (Gypsies steal children
to sell them (old story) in Saudi Arabia for (modern twist) transplants!)

The flimsiest of pretexts are enough nowadays for accusations of
racism (especially around Berkeley :-).  But one can not refute the
fact that anti-Gypsy racism is prevalent in Romania (as, by the way,
in the rest of Balkans) and ingrained in the language.  Discuss the
same topic in Romanian - how many people use ``romi'' (neutral for
Gypsies) and how many use ``tzigani''?  (possibly offensive).
``Tzigan'' is often used as insult; ``tziganie'' has almost always a
negative meaning; but few people think twice about using these words.

Beyond this, many don't want to face the fact that the communism under
Ceausescu has destroyed the moral fabric of the society and it will
take a long time to repair it.  The Gypsies provide a convenient
escapism.

- Andrei


Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
From: acarstea@icaen.uiowa.edu (Alin-Andrei Carsteanu)
Subject: Re: Moldova/Romania News from RFE/RL, 9/11/92
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:18:05 GMT
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa

We once read in the News that the Romanian Supreme Court ruled 2 to 1
AGAINST Iliescu's candidacy for Senate, now that the Court HAD REJECTED
discussing the case. Can anyone explain? The issue might be somewhat
important...
	Alin
From: sispas@lsil.com (Steve Ispas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Table after 5 rounds
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:09:40 GMT
Reply-To: sispas@lsil.com
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation

Clasament dupa 5 etape:
 
1. Steaua Bucuresti         5   4  1  0    13-4  9p
2. Dinamo Bucuresti         5   3  2  0    15-4  8p
3. Gloria Bistrita          5   3  1  1     9-6  7p
4. Rapid Bucuresti          5   2  3  0     6-3  7p
5. Univ. Craiova            5   2  2  1     9-4  6p
6. FC Brasov                5   3  0  2     7-3  6p
7. Sportul Studentesc       5   2  2  1     8-7  6p
8. Inter Sibiu              5   2  1  2     9-12 5p
9. Poli. Timisoara          5   2  1  2     7-10 5p
10.Farul Constanta          5   1  2  2     9-9  4p
11.Electroputere Craiova    5   2  0  3     4-4  4p
12.Univ. Cluj               5   2  0  3     3-5  4p
13.Progresul Bucuresti      5   1  2  2     6-9  4p
14.CSM Resita               5   1  2  2     5-11 4p 
15.Otelul Galati            5   1  2  2     3-9  4p 
16.FC Ploiesti              5   1  1  3     6-9  3p 
17.Dacia Unirea Braila      5   0  3  2     2-5  3p 
18.FC Bacau                 5   0  1  4     2-10 1p 

---


******************************************************************************
* Steve Ispas 				                           +-----+   * 	
* LSI Logic Corporation          Phone    : (408) 433-8799        LSI LOGIC
* 1501 McCarthy Blvd.            FAX      : (408) 433-6802         |     |   *
* M/S E-192                      email    : sispas@qafs2           +-----+   *
* Milpitas, Ca.  95035           internet : sispas@lsil.com                  *
******************************************************************************
From: bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Re: Gipsies / Jews and other "natiuni conlocuitoare"
Date: 10 Sep 1992 09:55:42 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <UefMsMe00WB4BPSacC@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:

>With all due respect, how many times *I* bought from "such people"
>is not your business.

Rad,
of course I respect you, it was only a retorical question.

Also, I know that the Gypsy monopoly on "taking in" people is not
a fact.  I meant to say that most often they were the one that have been
doing it.

I think I should make a general statement about my opinions as they
transpire from my posts.  If I said that Gypsies were doing something,
I understand that most often people that looked as such were involved
in the practice.  I do not believe that all Gypsies are theives, I do
not believe that all Romanians are angels.  However, most often in our
lives we look at things around us and we generalize.  That is the way 
to syntesize lots of data coming our way.  When it comes down to applying
our knowledge to our actions I deal in one-on-one basis, however
traditions and generalizations bias me in my decisions.

I hope this helps people in understanding were I am coming from.
From: re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Re: Gipsies / Jews and other "natiuni conlocuitoare"
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:39:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.UefMsMe00WB4BPSacC
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Sasha writes:

>I wonder Rad, how many times did you buy from such people?

With all due respect, how many times *I* bought from "such people"
is not your business.

>How many >times
>were you asked to exchange money with them, and if you ever did it?
>From my experience, I found out that they take advantage of the fact that
>people have desires to get what they do not find.
From my experience and school work, taking advantage of the fact that
people have desires to get what they do not find is the basis of starting
a profitable business and it is widely practiced in all economies not
controlled by the goverment.  In communist Romania it was practiced
at a great risk.

>The products you buy
>from them are most often counterfeit, and if they can sell you a suit that
>would fall apart tomorrow they will do it.  So, from the economical point
>of view they do not provide the needs, but rather take advantage of the
>human desires.  Since way back they used to sell gold nad silver that will
>turn green within weeks, know they sell jeans and others.  You'll say this
>the demand/supply economics, and I cannot say no to it.  However, if we >are
>to get ahead as a nation we should have enough pride to break out of >playing
>tricks with each other.

Playing with the ignorance of people is a business game as old as the oldest
profession.  Most customers knew about such practices and it was only
naives that were sought by those with lack of scrupules.  Nevertheless, it
is not a practice monopolized by the Gypsies.  In Romania it has

[unfortunately] become a trademark for the vast majority of traders,
regardless of their background.

Rad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
From: dbirsan@lambert.uwaterloo.ca (Dorian)
Subject: Re: Romania 3rd in Math Olympiad
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:29:46 GMT

In article <192hhsINNmal@pollux.usc.edu> bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur) writes:
>
>What I am surprised of is the high position of the USA team.  I am quite
>proud of the Romanians (we always have been up there in this competition).
>
In fact Romania placed first quite a few times ; when I was in grade 12 ('87)
the team got the gold and 5 of the 6 team members had a perfect score !!
( that's why I couldn't make the team :-) :-) )

>My girlfriend is a teacher in grammar school (6th grade) and I am quite 
>surprised that the level of math can be so high in USA in comparisson
>with the kids in her class.
>
It's not the high math level in US but the talent of a few very gifted
individuals ( though some of them aren't 100% americans - as if there were
such things :-)  )

>Sasha
>
-Dorian

Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
From: mihai@sep.Stanford.EDU (Alexander Mihai Popovici)
Subject: Romanian toilet paper 
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:46:55 GMT

Reposted from clari:


	BUCHAREST, Romania (UPI) -- Resourceful Romanians have found a novel
use for their worn-out currency. They are re-cycling it as toilet paper,
according to the National Bank.
	Every week 5-6 tons of otherwise useless bank notes are shredded and
sent to a toilet paper factory in Ploesti, a bank spokesman told the
daily ``Evenimentul Zilei'' Wednesday.
	The newspaper apparently was alerted by one of its readers who sent a
few sheets of the toilet paper with obvious marking of a 100 lei note
for the editors to see.
	Most Romanians will probably be grateful for this ingenious scheme.
Toilet rolls are rarely seen in the stores. When they appear on the
market they are usually bought in bulk by grateful consumers.

__________________________________________________________________________

It reminds me about the Bible scandal, when several thousand Bibles
donated to Romania were sent to the same factory.  Of course that
happened during the days of ceausescu.

Cheers
Mihai
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
From: mihai@nada.kth.se (Mihai Dorobantu)
Subject: Re: Gipsies / Jews and other "natiuni conlocuitoare"
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:56:24 GMT

In article <lapiupINNqr2@pollux.usc.edu>, bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur) writes:
|> In article <keeMCgC00WB61QKHtE@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:
|> 
|> >Gypsy "bisnitari" offer those products there is a demand for.  Their
|> >"hgh bisnita prices" are actually the real price consumers are willing
|> >to pay.  Prices could go down if there is more supply, but only recently
|> >other groups [than Gypsies] started entering the market.  They are
|> >considered "legitimate" merely because they are not Gypsies and, as always,
|> >when it will come to the Government's taking some "ordine" actions, Gypsies
|> >will be attacked.
|> 
|> I wonder Rad, how many times did you buy from such people?  How many times 
|> were you asked to exchange money with them, and if you ever did it?
|> 
|> From my experience, I found out that they take advantage of the fact that
|> people have desires to get what they do not find.  The products you buy
|> from them are most often counterfeit, and if they can sell you a suit that
|> would fall apart tomorrow they will do it.  So, from the economical point
|> of view they do not provide the needs, but rather take advantage of the 
|> human desires.  Since way back they used to sell gold nad silver that will
|> turn green within weeks, know they sell jeans and others.  You'll say this
|> the demand/supply economics, and I cannot say no to it.  However, if we are
|> to get ahead as a nation we should have enough pride to break out of playing
|> tricks with each other.
|> 
|> Sasha Bucur

 I had many similar experiences, buying "goodies" at 
black-market prices. But the blame should fall (a) on the
system, (b) on myself [for not doing anything about (a)]
and (c) (in some occasions) on myself again [for being stupid enough to buy 
what (a) couldn't provide]. As far as black-market is concearned,
I think that it was a consequence of (a), so the actual persons
who sold (tricked) are not really important. Don't forget that selling
chewinggum, Kent, jeans etc was only one segment of the black-market,
but there were other refined forms where the "Gypsy" didn't have access:
Getting medicine from the Party's clinics, getting a good hotel at
the sea-side, getting a counterfit medical leave, getting a passport
etc etc etc. This kind of black-market was run by the very "respectable"
class. 

In fact the whole society was run on black-market basis. Even relations
between juridic persons depended upon buying the "goodwill" of their
leaders.

So in such a rotten system, it is rather unfair to look only at those
who sold chewinggum, Kent, jeans ...
To tie things up to the whole ethnic group is worse then unfair, but
others wrote recently about that


Mihai Dorobantu







Organization: Doctoral student, Biology, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Date: Sat,  5 Sep 1992 14:05:48 -0400 
From: Paul Grigore Hodor <ph20+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Gipsies / Jews and other "natiuni conlocuitoare"


On 05-Sep-92 in Re: Gipsies / Jews and othe..
user Dan Timis@well.sf.ca.us writes:
> 
>Anyone who associates a particular trait to an ethnic group is making racist
>remarks (Note that I did not say "is a racist").
> 

I don't think that living peacefully with each other means to ignore the
differences which DO exist between nationalities. Recognizing those
differences doesn't mean you are making racist remarks.

If your parents teach you that the best way in life is to work hard and
be honest, that all your ancestors have done it this way, that's fine.
If your parents teach you that it is a family tradition to steal and
make money whenever you can, that's fine too. Saying that the first
group is hardworking and the second is opportunist is just noting the
facts. The problem begins if you belong to the first group and you
believe the others should be locked up because they are thieves, or if
you belong to the second and believe the others are suckers.

Dan, you are the first person whom I heard saying that you had more good
experiences than bad ones with Gypsies. On the other hand I met several
Romanians who were telling with pride about how they managed to travel
abroad by cheating and stealing. I agree completely that the character
of a person should be judged individually, regardless of ethnic origin.
Unfortunately the image which a small subgroup (regardless of ethnic
origin) creates in western Europe for Romania doesn't do any good for
the other 90% or so.

Paul Hodor

Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
From: mihai@sep.Stanford.EDU (Alexander Mihai Popovici)
Subject: Re: Moldova and another Russian Nationalistic Ignorant  
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 05:15:11 GMT

In article <01GOFQ9FCU4W8ZE0DW@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>, VIZNYUK@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (SERGEI VIZNYUK) writes:
|> >
|> > Sergei Viznyuk writes:
|> >>As you noted yourself, the question in "TransDniester" republic is
|> >>HOW to teach Moldavian language, while in "democratic" Estonia the
|> >>question is "to teach or not to teach Russian at all".
|> >
|> >At least no one has even discussed the possibility of using a Latin
|> >script for Russian.
|> 
|>   As you may know, the ORIGINAL script of MOLDAVIAN
|> language was Cyrrilic, except for the time, Moldova was
|> occupied by Romania, i.e. during 20 years. Therefore,
|> the question is WHY Moldavians were FORCED to change
|> their script to Latin ? 

Boy, amazing what some people can post.
In the same sentence this guy claims that Moldova was 
occupied by Romania for 20 years AND that the Cyrillic (note the spelling)
^^^^^^^^
alphabet was used for the rest of the time.

I can only say that the part of Romania which is generally
refered to as Basarabia (Bessarabia) became
the Socialist Republic of Moldavia after it was occupied by Russia in 1940.

It is true there are some finer points to this
region's history, mainly related to the invasion of
the Principate of Moldova by Russia during numerous
wars against Turkey.
I am willing to post some more details only because
a gentleman like Erland was involved in the beginning
of this thread, meaning there is some hope.
Otherwise such appalling ignorance can utterly disarm.

Cheers
MIhai
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
From: re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Re: Gipsies / Jews and other "natiuni conlocuitoare"
Date: 6 Sep 92 04:06:04 GMT
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Radu Tomescu writes:
Again, a very serious overestimation of the role of Gypsies as market inter-
mediaries in contemporary Romania; they do not deal in sugar, wheat, oil or
computer programming services; but rather in chewing-gum, jeans, cheap ste-
reos and video cassettes..

I say:
Gypsies have a strong control over the consumer goods black market, in
general (food is an important part of their list).  You are an economist
and I am surprised that you do not recognize that THEY ARE INDEED THE
FOREMOST CAPITALISTS OF ROMANIA.  Despite most of them's lacking capital,
they RUSHED into filling thothey RUSHED into fillingost neglected by the
uncapable leadership.  As for "bisnita", it is a coinage given by those
who like to accuse whenever someone gets ahead of them (including some
members of my family and some of my friends).  Their resent stems mainly
from the fact that they can't accept that their college diplomas earn
them less than how much many Gypsy teenagers earn.
Gypsy "bisnitari" offer those products there is a demand for.  Their
"hgh bisnita prices" are actually the real price consumers are willing
to pay.  Prices could go down if there is more supply, but only recently
other groups [than Gypsies] started entering the market.  They are
considered "legitimate" merely because they are not Gypsies and, as always,
when it will come to the Government's taking some "ordine" actions, Gypsies
will be attacked.

Rad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
From: hendrix@haber.Eng.Sun.COM (George Haber)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Re: Gipsies "Long live the King"
Date: 9 Sep 1992 16:06:29 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: hendrix@haber.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: haber


"KING OF ALL GYPSIES" CROWNED IN ROMANIA. Ion Cioaba, self-styled
King of all Gypsies, was crowned on 8 September at the Bistrita
Monastery in Oltenia. Radio Bucharest reports that thousands of
Gypsies cheered as a priest laid a two-and-a-half-kg Swiss-made
golden crown on his head.  The 57-year-old Cioaba swore to fight to
overturn centuries of contempt for Gypsies. Rival Gypsy groups that
do not recognize Cioaba as a leader and accuse him of collaboration
with Nicolae Ceausescu's regime protested the ceremony.  According
to the last census, taken in January, 410,000 Gypsies live in
Romania, but Gypsy leaders maintain the figure is much higher. (Dan
Ionescu, RFE/RL Inc.)


Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
From: bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Re: Table after 5 rounds
Date: 10 Sep 1992 09:46:36 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

>1. Steaua Bucuresti         5   4  1  0    13-4  9p
>2. Dinamo Bucuresti         5   3  2  0    15-4  8p
>3. Gloria Bistrita          5   3  1  1     9-6  7p
>4. Rapid Bucuresti          5   2  3  0     6-3  7p
>5. Univ. Craiova            5   2  2  1     9-4  6p
>6. FC Brasov                5   3  0  2     7-3  6p
>7. Sportul Studentesc       5   2  2  1     8-7  6p

Steve, 
thanks for the clasament.  I am imagining some cool weekends at the 
games in Bucharest with 4 teams in the top playing against each other
in the same day.  When I was back in Romania, those were cool days
when you spent the day at the stadium having fun in the sun.

By the way, does anybody know if 23 August stadium has changed its name?

I can only imagine the energy of the fans with Rapid playing Dinamo, or
Steaua in front of 80,000 spectators.  I miss that back in the States.

Sasha Bucur
From: marian@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Re: Romania 3rd in Math Olympiad
Date: 13 Sep 92 13:48:40 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

>   For those of you who're interested and haven't learned it
> already, Romania scored third in this year's IMO ( International
> Mathematical Olympiad ) that was held in Moscow.
> The first 5 teams were as follows :
>
> 	1. China		240 p ( out of 252 )
> 	2. USA			178 p
> 	3. ROMANIA		177 p
> 	4. Unified Team		176 p
> 	5. England 		168 p
>
> I think Romania was 3'rd last year, too .
>
> -Dorian.

Hi,
Do you know also the names of Romanian laureats? Thank you in advance for
answering me.
Marian
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
From: bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Re: New names (was: Re: Table after 5 rounds)
Date: 14 Sep 1992 10:15:16 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <ns.716276127@csd> ns@csd.cri.dk (Nick Sandru) writes:

>It is named 'Stadionul National' (the National Stadium). A lot of streets
>had their names changed too.

Nick, do you think that I will be completely lost if I go back home?
Last time I was back, in 1987, I felt quite strange, somewhat like 
a tourist.  I guess it will get only worst when I go next time.

Sasha
From: rahman@ces.cwru.edu (Rahman A. Soomro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Rain Relief  Fund
Date: 9 Sep 1992 19:51:21 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: easy.ces.cwru.edu


Dear friends,

Recent rains in Pakistan have caused devastating effects on the 
daily life of the Pakistani people. Scores of people have lost there
lives and more than a million have been homeless.

	I appeal to you to help our brothers and sisters in need
and donate some money to help them. Please send your contribution
(tax deductible) with your name and also I request you to collect 
donations from any source -- your colleagues at work, friends, business
associates, customers, persons from any nationalities and backgrouds
to help people in trouble. 

	We are tying you help suffering peoples, who are suffering
from disease and malnutrition.

Please mail your contributions to:

Pakistan Rain Relief Fund
4105 Providence drive
St. Charles, MO 63304
USA
From: ns@csd.cri.dk (Nick Sandru)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: New names (was: Re: Table after 5 rounds)
Date: 12 Sep 92 05:35:27 GMT
Organization: Computer Resources International A/S

bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur) writes:

>By the way, does anybody know if 23 August stadium has changed its name?

It is named 'Stadionul National' (the National Stadium). A lot of streets
had their names changed too.

A few examples:

Old name:			New name:

B-dul Ilie Pintilie		B-dul Iancu de Hunedoara
B-dul Gh. Gheorghiu Dej		B-dul Mihai Kogalniceanu
B-dul Victoria Socialismului	B-dul Unirii
Bulevardul 1848			B-dul I. C. Bratianu
B-dul Miciurin			B-dul Averescu
B-dul Kalinin			B-dul Mircea Eliade
B-dul Petru Groza		B-dul Eroii Sanitari
Piata Palatului RSR		Piata Revolutiei
B-dul Dimitrov			B-dul Ferdinand

>Sasha Bucur

Nick Sandru

-- 
Nick Sandru - System administrator   | e-mail: ns@csd.cri.dk         (office)
Columbus Space Station SDE Project   |         ns@sandes.cri.dk      (home)
Computer Resources International A/S | phone:  +45 45 82 21 00 x2036 (office)
Bregnerodvej 144                     |         +45 47 98 06 27       (home)
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian