From: kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l)
Subject: Re: Lifestyle Choices and Secular Reasoning
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 06:02:50 GMT

harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>>harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>>>kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>>>>"...the country founded upon atheism and a belief in man" is, ahem, was
>>>>the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

>>>This is also historically incorrect.  The "-ism" WRT the USSR is
>>>attributable to Karl Marx.

>>Greg, read your history.  the USSR was founded on Marxism-Leninism,
>>which no one would ever say bore a great deal of resemblance to
>>Marxism per se.  Even those who wish to make that argument will have 
>>to make clear which Marx they want to talk about - the philosophy
>>espoused before 1848 or after 1848?  Neither of which really resembled
>>what Lenin claimed Marx said.  My original statement stands.

>Your statement never stood.  You're trying to blame atheism for the
>fall of the USSR.  The Jews, Christians, and Muslims who live/lived
>there would be surprised.

Greg, I pointed out two nations, noted a characteristic of each, and noted
that one exists while the other one does not.  I laid no blame anywhere.
I certainly have no quarrel with your interpretation that atheism was
to blame, but you might want to provide a more thorough study of 
precisely why atheism brought about the downfall of the USSR, if you
wish to get published with that thesis.

>>>>Indeed.  I've read Tom and Ben and George, et. al. 

>>>Apparently you've not paid enough attention.  Read Andrew Jackson
>>>while you're at it.  

>>I wasn't aware Andy was a founding father.  I'll bet his mother's surprised.

>Didn't say he was, now, did I?  However, he was one of the strongest
>influences on our current political system.  

Arguable.  In any case, I believe he was a Theist.

>>>The First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religion doesn't imply
>>>in the least a Christian foundation for our country.  In fact, it
>>>specifically denies the possibility of the country having a single
>>>religious influence.

>>Pardon me, but did I say "Christian foundation"?  I did not.  I said
>>"belief in God".  That is correct.  My original statement stands.

>Your statement does _not_ stand.  You're simply repeating yourself on
>this subject without providing evidence.  That doesn't make it true.

Read the Declaration of Independence.  Find three references to a Supreme
Being.  Extra Credit: read the Articles of Confederation, and find one.

>>>Jefferson more credit than he deserves.  His own religious beliefs
>>>were in no way representative of the rest.  Andrew Jackson, Benjamin
>>>Franklin, and George Washington are on record as being atheists.

>>Andy was a little out of it to be a founding father.  

>See above.

>>The statements
>>about Ben and George are egregiously wrong.  There's simply no other
>>way to put it.

>Check it out for yourself.  And please, feel free to post proof
>positive that these two men were Christians.  I don't think you have
>it, not do I think you can produce it.

I did not say they were Christians, Greg.  One can believe in a Supreme
Being and be a Founding Father without being Christian.  Many were.

>I repeat:

>>>Back it up or take it back.  I think you'll find very little religious
>>>influence in the lives of most of those who wrote the Constitution.
>-- 
>-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
>  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
>  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
>  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
>  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure

Steve Kellmeyer
-- 

Steve Kellmeyer 
kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
From: patm@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Pat Murphy)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:17:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Rush on Donahue
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA