HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ucap22a@ucl.ac.uk (Mr Alisdair R Davey)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fist in Shotokai
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:33:47 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium, London

In article <41789@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly) writes:
>Since asking about Shotokai a few months back, I have been sticking at this
>style and am gradually coming round to understanding it.
>
>However, one aspect that still puzzles me is the formation of the fist.
>
>In Shotokan, and in many other styles, the top of the surface of the fist
>formed a straight line with the top of the forearm.  I guess that this
>is to focus the punch in the first knuckles of the index and middle
>fingers.
>
>However, in Shotokai the contact point is the second knuckles of those
>fingers, and the top of the fist is lifted slightly, at an angle to the 
>forearm.
>
>
>        ********------------
>	*	SHOTOKAN
>	*      *------------ 
>        ********
>
>
>
>        **
>       *  **
>      *     **
>     **       **_____________
>       **       SHOTOKAI (Angle is exagerrated)
>         **  *--------------    
>           **
>
>
>One reason I was given is that the Shotokan seiken is more susceptible to
>being bent down (since it is a bit asymmetrical).
>
>Also, I think the Shotokan fist does feel a bit vulnerable for strikes
>to the upper half of the body - above the horizontal relative to the puncher.
>
>But the Shotokan fist still feels better to me.  I reckon that I would have
>to condition my hands more to strike well with that angles fist.  Also,
>the upper finger joints will experience leverage on the strike.  This wouldn't
>happen with the Shotokan fist.
>
>Any thoughts on this?
>
>NB - The style is Shotokai - NOT Shukokai.
>
>tommy

Ye gads and little fishes - I read this just before I went off to my
Shotokan class, so we had a little discussion about it. We came to
the following conclusions.

* As good shotokan karate-ka this feels very weird !
* Any contact with the target below the upper finger
  joints would cause flexure and some of the force of the impact
  will be absorbed by this
* The "breaking" of the wrist from the horizontal will cause an
  inherent weakness...akin to the Euler definition mechanically
  speaking ( this came from...you guessed it an engineer )

It was our opinion that punching like this is not a good idea...
however... as the variety and difference in techniques of martial
arts never ceases to amaze me, I'm sure someone will have a good 
reason for it. I like forward to the followups. Ok enuff sed.
I'm off home to try and get my body to forgive me for treating
it so badly :0-)

Alisdair
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ddewar@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (derek.a.dewar)
Subject: Re: Help ! Need feet of DEATH !
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 07:58:56 GMT

>(Dakin Burdick) writes...
>>In shane@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Shane Brown) writes:
>>>   Why do I ask ? Because I am sick of losing my voice screaming
>>>when I let rip with a roundhouse in sparring, only to feel the
>>>top of my foot connect with the point of my partners elbow. AAARRGG !

Just wear some good instep protectors. YOu may still hit some elbows,
but you won't get as bad bruising. Getting knocks like that, usually 
makes the person work harder at making their kicking more accurate.

Del.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jonathan@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Jonathan Dwyer)
Subject: Re: Bush Black belt??!!!
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Organization: University of Queensland, AUSTRALIA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:39:44 GMT

willimsa@unix1.tcd.ie (Gavin Williams) writes:
|> I saw a photo of Bush......[SNIP!].....wearing a gi with a black belt.
|> 
|> I thought a black belt was something that was EARNED after years of sweat and 
|> toil.  Guess I was wrong.  This must mean that anyone can wear it.


Only in America, Gavin, only in America.......

*sigh*


Jon

--

                               (.sig is on vacation)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar)
Subject: Different Karate Fists
Reply-To: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 08:09:00 +0000



[previous interesting post (which I've lost) about Shotokai fist]


>That Shotokai punch looks quite painful for the puncher.  Have you
hit
>anything with it yet?


The Shotokai fist is actually very similar to the Shotokan
nakadaka ippon ken (single knuckle fist) but with the middle
knuckle not so extended. (Also similar to some versions of hiraken).


>I use the "Shotokan-style" punch with the top of the arm and fist
>flat, but I agree that it seems poorly designed for head strikes.
>When punching to the head, I use either an uppercut, hook punch, or
>supinate my fist to strike at either side of the chin.  


Do you use the "standard" all fingers folded fist? Personally,
I have been using the older, "index finger over", fist for the
last 9 months. It has several advantages over the standard fist.
Mainly it's pre-strike properties allow greater relaxation, and
it can be changed to a single knuckle fist instantly. However,
it is harder to form and if not held properly the index finger
can be injured or the thumb can be knocked back.


The advantage of using these more difficult fists is that they
reduce the surface area of the strike. Therefore for the same
force of punch the pressure under the striking area is greater.
Unfortunately the it is very difficult to be able to punch with
the same force without causing injury. Having said that, at higher
levels and with diligent practice the balance swings in favour
of using more advanced fists. It is possible to bring the force up
to almost that of the standard fist but the surface area is greatly
reduced resulting in much higher penetration of punch and 
therefore greater pain levels for your opponent.


>The only
>straight punch I do to the face is to the upper lip, and even then
>I figure that my opponent's teeth are going to slash my fist
>(according to Mas Oyama, cuts frm teeth are a great way to get
>infections).


Very true, the mouth is actually a pretty poor target, better
to go for the chin or throat. But don't forget the hinge of the
jaw, the eye, top of the nose, eye brow, temple, loads of targets
around the neck...etc etc. all good targets and less risky than
the mouth.


It is a shame that we are taught to punch "jodan" which we take
to mean "to the face". What we should really be thinking is that
jodan means choose a target above the shoulders. Certainly more
advanced students should pick their targets carefully and not
be content with just whacking off a head shot. 'Course that's
easier said than done - the thing I really hate about opponents
is that they just won't stand still while I hit them :-)






Bill Burgar




Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: Kyusho Jutsu - Vital Point strikes.
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 02:33:55 GMT

In article <memo.577908@cix.compulink.co.uk> bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>
>A little while back in this news group there was a thread about
>vital point strikes and several people in the know took the view
>that it would be irresponsible to put details of the techniques onto
>a public news group such as this. 

Yes, this was one of the silliest of rec.m-a threads.  They
tossed out a few teasers, and then declared that the rest of us
were too irresponsible to handle the "real" stuff.  Boy, was I
impressed.  It made me want to rush right out and send all my 
money to George Dillman so that I too could claim knowledge of
secret techniques and hope to make the uninitated feel
inadequate.

[...]

>For what
>its worth I think that a discussion of the techniques of Kyusho Jutsu
>would be entirely appropriate here.
>
>My knowledge in this area is still limited and so before I start posting
>details here I would like to gather your oppinions as to whether this is
>the appropriate place to discuss these issues. In any case I would like
>to enter into email discussions with anybody with any interest in this
>area.

My opinion?  If you have something to say about the martial arts,
rec.m-a is the right place to say it.  
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
From: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Wing Chun in general.
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:15:26 GMT
Reply-To: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Organization: Florida State University

In article <14143@auspex-gw.auspex.com> bae@Auspex.COM (Brian Ehrmantraut) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.223351.25225@uwm.edu>, ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>> various peoples on the net.  However, this conversation is starting
>> to tread dangerously close to what some people refer to as 
>> "trade secrets".  So at the risk of cutting the topic short, I
>>...<<
>> I also urge Peter and David to do the same.  

I'm not particularly worried that ANYONE can gain ANY truly useful
insights from simple text, unless they already know something
meaningful. In that case, who gives a shit?

>	"Trade secrets"???  Oh please!  

No, Brian, he meant 'trade secrets'! That's what we're here for, isn't
it? To trade secrets!?? I'll show you mine if you show me yours...

David Poore
poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu
From: simutis@Ingres.COM (John Simutis)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:10:17 GMT
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company, Alameda CA 94501


|>             
|> 
|> BTW, what kind of impressions to WC people do?  ;^)
|> 

They do impressions of some guy named Fields - didn't like dogs or children,
preferred Philadelphia to something....

-- 
--------
< standard disclaimer >
                          INGRES, an ASK Company
John Simutis, simutis@ingres.com         Alms!  Alms for the vi-impaired!
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner)
Subject: Re: The Christian MA
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 12 Aug 92 11:32:18 CDT

In article <1992Aug12.113042.25326@relay.nswc.navy.mil> snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:

< content deleted >

Northcutt, rec.martial-arts is a forum for postings, questions, and discussion, 
and even jokes, related to martial arts. Your post did not match these criteria.
It is inappropriate to preach your religious beliefs in this forum. It is 
inappropriate when khan does it. It is inappropriate when you do it. 

Those who agree with you may greet your post enthusiastically at best, or
be bored, at worst. Hopefully they will have the restraint not to add to
what you say.

Those who disagree with you will range in reaction from being bored, to
amused, to being angry. Hopefully, they too, will be able to refrain from
compounding your inappropriate behaviour by debating this issue with you.

In neither case will anyone's opinion have changed. 

Except of you.

Intolerance towards a stereotyped grouping of human beings loses you
all respect, potential for friendship, and opportunity for learning
from those *individuals*. And their *friends*. Who may not fall under 
your sweeping brushstrokes of condemnation. 

Do you have any idea whatsoever how many people in this newgroup, whose
opinions and knowledge you have enjoyed and respected - even sought
out and been grateful for - you have just angered, insulted, and
dismissed with your post? 

Do you realize how many ties you have just broken with people in this
newsgroup? People who will no longer go out of their way to answer your 
questions, help you with workshop content, offer business suggestions, 
suggest dojo contruction ideas, explain the subtleties of a technique,
come up with solutions to situations that concern you, or even wish to 
*meet* you any more?

You have dismissed a tremendous number of multi-talented *individuals*
because of *one* aspect of their lives of which *you* disapprove, thus
closing off all other facets of that person to you. You have also lost
all access to any of their friends and *their* talents and thoughts
and abilities.

I can see that you have been troubled by the discussion of something 
which touched on a subject of which you disapprove so strongly. 

That's too bad. 

Your comments are not appropriate to *this* newsgroup. Perhaps in one
of many others. Your religious opinions would have been appropriate,
though utterly unwelcome, in the medium of direct e-mail to those you 
thought should hear your message.

I probably should have sent this privately, myself, but I am hoping
that all those who might want to respond to Northcutt's post will 
take a deep breath for about a week and try to either ignore his 
post and let it die, or at least take it directly to e-mail from the 
onset. This is the one newsgroup for which I have never had an entry
in the kill-file. I would like to keep it that way.

-Lauren

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552)
Subject: Re: The rat, MA, and others
Organization: just me
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 14:48:10 GMT
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts

In article <16oicjINNk6b@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.133759.11439@relay.nswc.navy.mil>, snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:
>|> Hope you find humor, perhaps even insight in this :-)  Yes its true.
>|> 
>|> Sat. night, I was sitting in a doorway downtown just out of the rain,
>|> greeting people.  A rat runs out of the storm drain right towards me.
>|> I see him, jump up and try to soccer style *plant left-kick right*
>|> boot him into the street.  Rat does a 180, zips back into the storm
>|> drain, with me on his heels.  EVERYBODY else goes, what was that!! 
>|> ===================================================================
>
>When do you plan on telling us about your latest exploits pulling
>wings off flies?  What style of grab do you use for such motions?
>How do the flies react?
>
>	--Shai
>
>P.S. Do you also train on dust motes? 

Shai,
     You are aware that there is a serious rabies epidemic in Stephen's
part of the country?  You know that rats normally won't go anywhere near
people in the open?  You know that rats in cities are not cute, white and
cuddly?
	David Pipes
robear@digex.com
From: hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: re: Shaolin Temple news.
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:37:02 GMT
Organization: Network Systems Corporation

In article <9208172140.AA10170@adelphi-assb01.army.mil> @adelphi-msc.army.mil:chang@assb01 writes:
>
>        Here's something that some monks (those who specialize in it) can
>do that is definitely not wushu.  There's a skill they can pull logs and 
>lift rocks with their, <warning painful to male readers> testicles.

Gulp...

We had a thread about this some time ago, I recall.

Say, did you actually see this yourself?

>                                                                     The
>martial benefit of this traing is render that area invulnerable to attack.

I'll bet.

>(Ow, I'm still in pain).

I'll bet.

>        This is not something I want to see competitions in.

I'll bet.


-- 
Peter Hahn           |hahn@network.com|"...In Peking, he told me, there lived a
7600 Boone Ave. N    |+1 612 424-4888 |famous boxer who dropped down from three
Brooklyn Park, MN USA|                |stories onto an interior courtyard
55428                |                |without making a sound when he landed."
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The rat, MA, and others
Date: 18 Aug 92 02:21:19 GMT
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU's message of 17 Aug 92 22:16:02 GMT


In article <16p8f2INNpu9@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:

  >In article <1992Aug17.194949.23115@alw.nih.gov> drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury) writes:
  >>In article <1992Aug17.133759.11439@relay.nswc.navy.mil> snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:
[Stephen Northcutt's description of attempted rat assault deleted]

[Richard Drury's description of attempted rat assault also deleted]

  >You meanies.

You tell 'em.

  >Rats are one of the few members of the animal kingdom with a genuine 
  >affection for humans, and all they get from us is hatred and abuse.

Awwww....

  >Sure, in the "wild" they can be nasty, disease ridden, and offensive, 
  >but when people have to eat garbage and live in sewers, they become
  >nasty, disease ridden and offensive as well.

Heh.  Well, I have regular encounters with dumpster rats on my way
home from the dojang.  These critters are actually rather nice looking...
good-sized, a nice even smoky gray color, and very clean and 
healthy-looking.  They certainly look better than the squirrels that
hang out down on the Common shaking down the tourists for popcorn.

Of course, I still usually pick up an empty soda can or bottle in case
they decide they wanna play...but it hasn't come to that yet.  These 
are some peaceful rats, all right.  
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: kxs5829@ultb.isc.rit.edu (K.X. Saunders )
Subject: Re: Wing Chun in general.
Originator: kxs5829@ultb
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 20:11:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.223351.25225@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>Well, it depends what you are doing.  As a general rule
>it's the wrist area.  If your extended past that

	If you are doing chi dan sau, single sticky hands, there is wrist and
some forearm contact.  If you are doing bong-lop rolling, then there is equal
amounts of wrist and forearm contact.

>it's incorrect structure or you should be allready doing
>something.  But of course this was assuming you were talking
>about pre-confrontation (no actuall hitting had started
>yet).  A Tan Sao, Bon Sao, Garn Sao and many of the other defensive
>blocks are going to make a natural contact in the forearm area.

	The Tan Sau and Gaun Sau should be blocking with the wrist area, not
the forearm.

>So of the defensive nature in Wing Chun, the contact for "sticking" will
>be more of the forearm area.  As a contact area for the

	The contact for sticking will be the hands.

>Huen Sao.  And you can use it in either direction around the
>arm, outside in or indside out.  Depends on what you want
>to accomplish and what the opponent is doing of course.
>Yah, sounds like your doing a Huen Sao into a larp sao
>or possibly pak sao.  I LOVE taking apart those overcommitied
>classical Karate and Kung Fu blocks like that.  Lot's of 
>fun. ;)

	Huh?  Huen Sau is used to trap using the back of the hand to create
a small opening to attack.

>I bow out of it.  I have allready revealed much more about WC
>then I cared too.  I have no regrets really, because I am happy
>I was able to contribute to the understanding of Wing Chun by
>various peoples on the net.  However, this conversation is starting
>to tread dangerously close to what some people refer to as 
>"trade secrets".  So at the risk of cutting the topic short, I
>can no longer go into any greater depth than I allready have.

	Trade secrets?  Oh please.  You can tell anyone all you want about 
Wing Chun, but unless they diligently practice every day, it isn't going to do 
them any good.

	Is this attitude of "I've got something to hide in my Wing Chun" your
own or that of your school's?

	- Kyle

-- 
+-"Remember, [MS]DOS is sort of a UNIX deviant already" - dmoscny@piglet.-----+
|    // Only /\          kxs5829@ultb.isc.rit.edu                 cincinatti. |
| \ //      /--\MIGA     kyle@nick.csh.rit.edu                    oh.us       |
| \X/ SQLdb - $40 rdbms  Rochester Institute of Technology                    |
From: ami-tox@cup.portal.com (Enrico Ami-tox gilberti)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Rope as a weapon ?
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 19:15:29 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa

Are there any MA out there that utalize ROPE as a weapon ? 
I remember reading an article about it but have forgoten where. 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cschum@engin.umich.edu (Corey Joseph Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Help ! Need feet of DEATH !
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 16:17:40 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <Bt4pvs.1zD@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>In article <shane-170892125028@a-mac.psy.uq.oz.au> shane@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Shane Brown) writes:
>>   Why do I ask ? Because I am sick of losing my voice screaming
>>when I let rip with a roundhouse in sparring, only to feel the
>>top of my foot connect with the point of my partners elbow. AAARRGG !
>
>Don't kick his elbow.  In this case the "cure" you have suggested is 
>worse than the problem.  Put another way, you have a choice between
>learning to place your kicks more accurately or deliberately 
>damaging your legs to deaden the nerves.
>
>Dakin
>burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu

I've also smashed my feet into elbows a few times.  The last time,
I limped for a month.  Maybe that's why I haven't done it again?
Recently, an instructor addressed this problem in class.  He did the demonstration on me, so I saw the difference.  If you turn your hip over only
part way, the foot comes up right into the elbow.  If you turn your hip
over far enough, the foot comes in at a different angle and the person
you're kicking would really have to lift his/her arm away from his body
for you to hit the elbow.  I don't know how clear that explanation is, but
try it with a partner.  Have him hold his elbows in close to his body.
Do a roundhouse kick with the hip turned over 45 deg, nad then another turned over 90 degrees.  The first will come near the elbow, and the second should
come in above it, even though they're both targeting the ribs somewhere.

If this message is screwed up, please forgive me.  It's my first post,
and I'm even worse at using usenet than I am at TKD.  :)

Corey
From: jamesh@castle.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Bush Black belt??!!!
Date: 23 Aug 92 15:55:24 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

>> I thought a black belt was something that was EARNED after years of sweat and 
>> toil.  Guess I was wrong.  This must mean that anyone can wear it.

Of course! But this doesn't mean that anyone can BE a black belt. In
fact I'd be rather impressed at anyone who could turn themselves into a
black belt, especially if they then tied themselves round someone's
waist too! ;-)

James



-- 
  James Hammerton,2nd year Computer Science at University of Edinburgh
  Email: jamesh@uk.ac.ed.castle   Or: jh@uk.ac.ed.dcs                 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: RFD: rec.martial-rats
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:09:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: zeus.JON.92Aug19150918
Organization: University of Utah


--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Competition (was Re: The Christian MA)
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:38:59 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <34255@cbmvax.commodore.com> kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - CATS) writes:
>Aikido does not have sparring or tournaments, and we actively work at
>getting away from "goal" and "prize" orientation.  What other martial
>arts work from this premise?  I can't imagine eskrima sparring or
>ninjustu tournaments, but my exposure to other arts is limited to 
>watching some TaeKwonDo and working with a Gojo-Ryu blackbelt who is
>also studying aikido. 

There are a number of traditionally-oriented Okinawan karate styles that
also work from this premise. Certainly, any of the Japanese bugei (ko-ryu)
also operate that way (it's very hard to have a tournament with live
blades - although it *would* make judging the results easier ;-) ).

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts