From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 02:45:36 GMT

In article <BvCKFy.7B9@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>From article <1992Sep29.114931.16422@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>, by 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU:
>>>However if someone could show that OSE regularly shot policemen, blew up buildings etc, I would agree that the
>> 	You forgot to answer (or ignored) the point I made about the fact that
>> the British Leagal system jailed a number of Irsih citisens (Berminham seven 
>> you mentioned) while they new they were inocent. Your reply was in the form 
>> that IRA should be prosecuted and braking the law a bit to protect society is 
>> accepted.
>
>Now where did I say that? Nothing could be more counter-productive in
>dealing with terrorism than not going by the book. I fear the fiasco of
>the Birmingham Six will have put more guns in the IRA's armoury than a
>lot of Noraid propaganda has managed. But what is the 'British Legal system'. The
>jury who convicted the Birmingham Six certainly didn't know they were
>innocent, nor did the judge who sentenced them. This case rests on the
>suppression of facts by elements in the police force which led to them not
>being presented in court. This has now been dealt with via the appeals
>procedure, admittedly at an excessively slow speed.

	The legal system does not work properly when an inocent is convicted.
With that logic then all inocents that will be freed later in the same way 
shows that the legal system did work and for those inocent that stayed in Jail
it also worked because we never new they were inocent.
 
>As for prosecution my position is clear, if you blow people up, shoot
>them etc you should be arrested and if the police have done their work
>correctly, gaoled or even executed, you should not be
>arrested for circulating a pamphlet. I really think that's enough about
>the IRA. It distresses me to give them free publicity.


	Well It's debatable as to how far and high the cover up went because
the matter is not been completely cleared, and as for the IRA it was show that
the Berminham Six were not related to the IRA actions.

>>  That offcourse is my interpritation of a vage answer. My question would be
>> that you can see social injustice in a case of the OSE five were the
>> court has not decided on there fate and you don't have all the info
>> needed
>
>The reasons for the arrest and charges faced have been posted several
>times. No one has challenged them. I would be grateful if any one could
>tell me if what has been posted is false.
>

	Many times on the net someone has posted some news about a country.
Greece in many cases and Greeks would jump to defend Greece even they are not 
sure about the information. As for the OSE five the only source was a
person that had been posting quite a few questionable facts about Australia
and the Greece. The only point that we could not prove untrue (For lack of any other
knowledge of it) became debatable. So unless wa can have more evidence
to the facts we cannot argue, but only go in circles. I myself do not know
about this incident but some of the facts presented were lies or half truths.
I feel that from what has been said from the OSE dude most has been hidden.

>
>>> I'm no friend of terrorism under whatever
>>>initials it hides. On the other hand the printing of a pamphlet
>>>(particularly this one) seems a harmless enough thing and moreover pamphlets and slogans are about as far as OSE's revolution
>> 
>> 	The secret in this argument is the word you put "seems".
>
>Alas, a mild English idiom for "is". 
>
>> Oh and another missinformation passed on to the net by the OSE member ..
>> He mentioned that strikers were walking down major Athenean streets holding
>> banners in the front asking to free the OSE five. I doubt if anybody has
>> any knowledge of the OSE five. And those people were holding banners to free
>> jailed strikers (Please jump on this one because you don't know why they were 
>> also jailed)
>
>I don't want to jump on this one because I believe you. Left fringe groups have
>a habit of attaching themselves to larger social movements and claiming
>them as their own. A classic example in this country would be the
>Miners' Strike. Please don't think that I like OSE, I don't, I'm a right-wing conservative. I just think they have the right to put their point
>of view.
	
	Point accepted. But I'd wait till I have info from the trial and this
argument can lay at rest until ferther notice.



>
>>>will ever get. Everyone is allowed to dream - even Trotskyites and in my
>>>case Thatcherites.
> 
>> 	The Tounge does not have bones but it can brake bones"
>> 
>> In other words, words can be more dangerous than action. People should not be 
>> allowed to advocate violence.
>
>By and large I agree, though as I've said persecuting small groups that
>advocate armed revolution is counter-productive. It gives them a false
>sense of security and publicity and they've no chance of doing this anyway. If they get round to hurting
>people, then 
>they cease to be a joke and it's time to stop them doing this. The point is though that the charges in
>this case are nothing to do with this eccentric stance of OSE on armed
>revolution (otherwise surely they'd have been dealt with years ago), but simply about their disagreement with the Greek
>Government line on Macedonia.

	Right now there are many all over the world looking to do damage.
One reporter from the US can approach him as if he is a comon citisen
and ask him about his views. These would seem as views that are widely held
as it's obvious that the media can make big stories from vapour. So
although this could have been the reason the police could have reacted hastily
(Dont forget neither of us know how much of this is true) I still have 
confidence in the court system.

 
>
>> If somebody that seems harmless enough is on the
>> streets asking for members to form a new group that will create violence
>> he should be jailed.
> 
>But how does disagreeing with your government create violence? 

	But there should be a limit to spoken words. Just like you have laws
that cannot allow people to insult the state or the queeen. There also should
be laws that limit somebody's right to advocate violence. A note I made before
is that Greece has an excelent human rights record it is a fact much ignored
by a lot of the advocates.


> It
>happens round here all the time, but Keele seems pretty peaceful.
>
>Andy

	George


Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek