HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: On Macedonian Nationality
Date: 22 Dec 92 12:31:27 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <9235619.23993@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
>

long pseudo-scholar typing deleted - will reply to them in a week


Could people right there  spare so many nonsense next
time


Regards

Luben


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
				Gotse Delchev
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy))
Subject: Mr.Pavlovic is a liar (until he disproves this)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:15:08 GMT

In article <1h7crbINNhb2@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>, pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
> 
> Are you telling me that abrodnik, the man who replicated
> the ultimate misuser of Usenet, Hasan B-) Mutlu, in cross posting tons and tons
> of propaganda for over a year, is one who wants peace?  Is this the same
> arrogant Andrej Brodnik we're talking about here, the arrrogant, racist,
> pretentious abrodnik who tried to shup up the Serbian side of the story the
> minute DVV started posting articles about the crimes of Croats?

Mr.Pavlovic, I'm eagerly avaiting your obvious proves for all claims
you enlisted above.

Merry Christmas, to everybody, and to you Mr.Pavlovic. Note, that
Christmas is meant to be a holiday of peace. Make your peace with
Christ, Mr.Pavlovic, if you can't with people. Confess (to him) your
sins including spreading the lies and hatred. I forgive you for this.


Best regards,

Andrej

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10365 soc.culture.croatia:311 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1065 soc.culture.europe:10973
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Understanding the Media, by Peter Brock
Date: 3 Jan 93 10:31:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: GOLEM.1i7ieeINNhcg
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu

In article <1993Jan3.190651.17272@walter.bellcore.com> ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324) writes:
>
>		UNDERSTANDING THE MEDIA
>	The War of Delusion and 'Media Cleansing'
[..long article calling for `justice for Serbia'..]
>				Peter Brock
>				Third annual Serbian
>				Unity Congress
>				Convention 
>				Nov. 21, 1992

Preaching to the choir.

Victor
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: "I thot I thaw a Puthy Cat!"
Date: 24 Dec 92 06:10:15 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:

>I predict that of all the nations in XYu, the ones who will ultimately
>suffer the most because of this war will be the Serbs.  I further
>predict that some rather dramatic barbarities will ultimately occur
>inside Serbia proper because of the nature of this war, and that all
>the outside forces which might otherwise help (EC, UN, NATO) will
>blithely stand aside and piously opine that justice is being done.
>Adding fuel to this fire is the likely election victory of Milosevic
>this weekend.  It now appears that Serbs have freely chosen the
>current policy; with Seselj's surprising showing at the polls, it
>seems that an even more violent policy is the choice of many Serbs.  A
>reprehensible past, an evil present, and a tragic future is what I see
>for Serbia.

>-- 
>Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
>Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
>Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
>Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic

Says Tweety:

 "I thot I thaw a Puthy Cat!" 
 "Poor Puthy Cat!"

(watch cartoons)

	Happy Holidays and
    	with hopes for

        __________  __________   _______          _________   __________
       /   ___   / /  _______/  /   __  |        /  ____  /  /  _______/
      /   /  /  / /  /         /   /  | |       /  /   /_/  /  /
     /   /__/  / /  /___      /   /___| |      /  /        /  /___
    /   ______/ /   ___/     /   _____  |     /  /        /   ___/
   /   /       /   /        /   /     | |    /  /    __  /   /
  /   /       /   /_____   /   /      | |   /  /____/ / /   /_____
 /___/       /_________/  /___/       |_|  /_________/ /_________/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ana M. Shane                               pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: *** Anti-Macedonian Legal Acts [in Greece] ***
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:08:29 GMT

sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:



>	The typical Greek Netter's response to earlier articles I have
>	taken time to post we are all familair with. These require no
>	response, for their time isn't of interest.

 Of course it is of no interest. You know very well how propaganda works.
 But, this also shows that you cannot support your arguments.

>By retaliating to
>	their own tactics would merely let them think there is something of
>	interst to converse with them. 

  You can certainly start talking to yourself you know.  However, the network
  is a place where people are supposed to express their ideas, talk and
  rationalize about their opinions.  Are you jealous of Mutlu/Argid?

 Merry Christmas

 Panos Tamamidis
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Another war monger
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:55:26 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Muris Cicic (cicic@cc.uow.edu.au) writes:
>I genuinelly would like to see you being raped, and then call on you for peace
>with your rapist.  I also would like your city being destroyed, and your
>family killed, and your house full of 'innocent' people.  I want you starve
>to death, live without water, electricity, and be a target for sniper.  And
>call on you for peace, peace!  I wish all your friends being either killed or
>flattered worldwide, in camps and shelters, with all they have on their backs.
>And tell you: peace, peace!

Yes, we really want to you say so. Because if you are going to
adopt the same lowly behaviour as your aggressor, you would be
no better. You would only reduce yourself to the same lowly
creature. Then there will only peace in Bosnia-Hercegovina when
there is silence and everyone is dead, and the land full of
slit body parts left as the graveyard over the Serbocroatic
people.

And then people are asking for more weapons? No way!



-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Serbian elections
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 15:16:02 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

The Washington Post, Dec. 22, 1992, front page:

               DEFIANT SERBIANS REELECT MILOSEVIC
         Opposition, Observers Cite Vote Irregularities

  [...] Milosevic [...] apparently has won reelection easily.
  [...] Voters [...] also gave surprisingly strong backing to an
  ultranationalist party called the Serbian Radicals, a fascist group
  that advocates violence to rid Serbia of its large non-Serb minority.
  [...] Strong voter support for Milosevic and Seselj is a measure
  of "suicidal tendencies in this society," said Desimir Tolic, a leader
  of the moderate Democratic Party, which was trounced in Sunday's vote.
  [...] A senior Western diplomat here said the election will force
  "a new phase in the West's relations with Yugoslavia.  "There was a
  faint hope that Serbia and Montenegro would be capable of changing
  themselves internally," he said.  "This really casts doubt on that." [...]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above news is not encouraging... although it should not have surprised
diplomats and other people who ought to know...

There ARE Serbs who are appalled by what Milosevic and Seselj leadership
has done, but these voices of reason are weak and few.  Sad.  I'd much rather
see Serbia reformed from within than see it pursue a path of death and
destruction.  Unfortunately, Milosevic, Seselj & Co. follow the ideology
of militant Serbian nationalism, whose basic premise is simply crazy.

As an example, "Do istrage vase ili nase" ("Until extermination yours
of ours", by Serbian lawyer Nikola Stojadinovic) was crazy when it was
published in 1902; but today's policy pursued by the Serbian leadership
is no less crazy.  Crazy because it cannot succeed, crazy because it
causes terrible pain to Serbs' neighbors, crazy because it causes
terrible pain to Serbs themselves.  Too few Serbs understand this,
too few Serbs can see how this policy sets them against the community
of nations and their neighbors.  And when they say "everyone is
against us," too few Serbs realize that only this policy is to blame.

-Josip

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: medvidov@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (Nenad Medvidovid)
Subject: Re: Zelenaska djubrad je dobila sta zasluzuje.
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Reply-To: medvidov@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (Nenad Medvidovic)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:19:25 GMT

In article <1h4idvINNk1v@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
>In article <Dec.21.03.57.14.1992.19071@andromeda.rutgers.edu> pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>>pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
>>
>>
>>>  Ogromno mi je zadovoljstvo da prenesem jedan clanak o tome kako su UJDI-jevci
>>>iz Crne Gore, tj. zelenaska DJUBRAD, prosli nedavno u Bijelom Polju.  Zao mi
>>>je samo sto nisam bio tamo sa bracom i sestrama Srbima i Srpkinjama iz Crne
>>>Gore, koji su na tako prikladan nacin docekali Ustasko-UJDI bitange.
>>
>>[the rest deleted]
>>
>>Milan, this really puts you in the league of the worst fascists!
>>Shame on you! Is this the kind of democracy and civilised behavior
>>you propagate?
>
>  Just as I expected, here comes Ana M. Shane charging forward with her UJDI
>ideas.  I'm surprised more of your pals from SII haven't expressed their 
>"disgust for Milan the fascist" on scy yet.  Tell me, Ana, how come you're not
>as quick in calling the LSCG members "fascists", since they're the ones who
>behave like terrorists and carry guns around?  SHAME ON YOU, HYPOCRITE !
>Ana, I don't won't to waste my time any more with people like you. You have no
>nation. You have no religion. You have no culture.  Keep reading your beloved 
>tjednik "Vreme" and get back in your hole.
>
>
> [STUFF DELETED]
>
>
>Milan Pavlovic
>===============================================================================
>		M A C E D O N I A  =  H E L L A S
>===============================================================================



	Although I had promised myself not to get into all the petty bickering
that often seems to plague this newsgroup, I can't resist this time.
Considering that, over the several months I have been reading scy, I found 
Ms. Ana Shane to be one of the few voices of reason in this whole maddness, I
have but one question:
	Whereas Ana (and a few others, including myself) may not have a nation
or religion (although I would appreciate if Mr. Pavlovic could enlighten us
with what qualifications he has to be able to determine such a thing), which
one does this respected panel perceive as having no culture: Ms. Shane or
Mr. Pavlovic?

	I thought so!

Nenad the-Serbo-Croat-from-Montenegro Medvidovic
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: What awaits the winner?
Date: 26 Dec 92 14:14:02 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Before the elections in 1990, Vreme interviewed a couple of persons
about would await the winner of those elections. In their recent
issue of December 20, they have interviewed the same persons again
about the recently held elections. I find the following comments
very refreshing to read. There is still some sanity left in Belgrade.

    One of those who foresaw with  most accuracy what awaited the winner was
    Vuk Stambolovic, professor of social  medicine at the Medical faculty in
    Belgrade.
    ....
    "No matter who comes to power,  he will be under the pressure of
    the nationalist  project and the war.  Let us remember that  the idea of
    Greater Serbia is still in force. No  one has dared say that the borders
    are  inviolable.  No  one  dares  say   that  we  bear  a  part  of  the
    responsibility for the sanctions, that there are war criminals among us,
    that the Albanians are a nation  just like the Serbs. Any politician who
    would  say that  would lose  a large  number of  votes. For  this reason
    everyone is cautious. But until we do this, there will be no significant
    changes", said Stambolic.

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: Re: Understanding the roots of hatred - it comes from the TOP
Keywords: peace, hatred, war, opression
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 23:27:14 GMT

pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:

>This is partly a reply to Faruk's question to name ONE person
>politically persecuted in Serbia (and a Serb-Monte-Negrin). It
>is also one more attempt on my part, on this net, to call all of
>you to DO something for PEACE. It is not a defense of Bosnian-Serbian, 
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Serbian-Serbian, Yugoslav-Serbian, or any other Serbian "rights", nor

>a justification of the attrocities commited in the name of these
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"rights". 
^^^^^^^^^

It is exactlly what you try to deny.  And you should know that we know.
And save us of your call for peace after you have conquered our land, moved
in our houses, and looted our property.  We would forgive you for all that.
But, 150,000 killed, 50,000 women raped, and 2 mil 'cleansed' will never stop
crying.  Tell them about your peace.

Your belief in our stupidity is pathetic.  You can confuse some people from
the West, not us.  The plan was so simple from the beginning: kill them all,
who survives, will adhere with our peace-activists.  In the end, Seselj and 
Arkan will be sacrified, and 'innocent' Serbian people, except Milosevic,
Jovic, and Bokan, will live in peace.  The problem is in aritmetic: how 4 or
5 bad Serbs have succeded to rape 50,000 women?  And, how come that Karadzic,
Mladic, and 3 other bad Bosnian Serbs have destroyed Sarajevo?  Oh, yes, you
are masters in aritmetic, 70,000 or 700,000, doesn't matter.

I genuinelly would like to see you being raped, and then call on you for peace
with your rapist.  I also would like your city being destroyed, and your 
family killed, and your house full of 'innocent' people.  I want you starve
to death, live without water, electricity, and be a target for sniper.  And 
call on you for peace, peace!  I wish all your friends being either killed or
flattered worldwide, in camps and shelters, with all they have on their backs.
And tell you: peace, peace!

Muris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)
Subject: Panic ousted as Yugoslavia's prime minister
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix  (508) 655-3848
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:50:18 GMT

UPI has reported the following:

Serbia's ruling communists and allied ultra-nationalists Tuesday  
ousted Yugoslav Prime Minister Milan Panic in a no-confidence vote  
engineered by Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic as a final post- 
election humiliation of his defeated rival.
 
The Milosevic-controlled lower house of the federal Parliament of the
Serbia-Montenegro union approved Deputy Prime Minister Radoje Kontic
as interim government head, ignoring warnings it was breaching a
constitutional requirement that Yugoslav President Dobrica Cosic
nominate a replacement. ....  

The no-confidence motion was first approved in the 138-member Chamber
of Citizens, the lower house of the federal Parliament, in a vote of
95-2, with 12 abstentions.
 
Several hours later, the 40-member upper house, the Chamber of
Republics, gave final approval without any debate on a 30-5 vote.

Panic vowed to remain in the country and ``try to organize'' opposition
to Milosevic. ...

---
Meanwhile, in Bosnia & Herzegovina, UPI and other news services reported 
worsening conditions in Sarajevo, where the temperature is around -10C.
Some nursing-home residents have begun dying of cold and malnutrition,
and a spokesman for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees said there 
is a real danger that children in the city will begin dying from
lack of food and heat as well. A UN-escorted team that was trying to
restore utility service to Sarajevo was turned back by a Serb military
commander, and was unable to attempt repairs. The city has
been without electricity, heat, and running water for weeks.


-- 
Note: My current address (sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us) will be invalid
as of 6 p.m. Dec. 31 because unixland is shutting down.
--
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg, Framingham MA  USA
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Serbian elections
Date: 26 Dec 92 00:21:48 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Ana M. Shane (pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu) writes:
>2) The percentage of "Serbs" living in Serbia is about 64% (right?)
>One would think that other nations (cca 35%) see better where Milosevic
>& Seselj are leading and vote against them. Together with the Serbs for
>Panic, the "non-Serbs" in Serbia could have easily
>thrown Milosevic off their backs. Right? Why didn't they?
>
>3) It is known that the Albanians from Kosovo didn't vote. In the
>light of the previous question, why didn't they, when their voice
>could have been decisive? Panic clearly promised to reinstitute
>the autonomy of Kosovo and Metohija. Is it in their interest also
>that the war spreads?

I don't want to go into speculation why the Albanians and the
Sandzak muslims stayed home from the elections, but I guess
there are a couple of reasons. Although Panic has been clearly
more conscillatory towards the Albanians than Milosevic, he has
not been prepared to go as far as the Albanians want, that is
grant secession. I think that the Albanians are very hesitating 
to another dose of "autonomy". I guess that have had more than 
enough of Serbia by now. Possibly they could accept Kosovo to 
be a republic of its own in rump Yugoslavia, but while this was 
a solution 10 years ago, it may not be now.

But one may claim that Panic would still be a better choice for
them. Hm, yes, but would Milosevic really have stepped peace-
fully aside for Panic? Would the army accept it? If civil war
breaks out in Serbia, Kosovo might get burnt too. (The civil
war is unfortunately coming nearer also with the actual outcome.)

And would really Milosevic permit the Albanians to depose him?
If they had voted, but the voting was rigged, they would only
have helped to justify Milosevic.

All this not as a defence for that Albanian abstention, but as
some possible explanations.

>At any rate, in my mind I cannot see these elections as just, fair and
>legal. Not to mention the tampering with the vote count and voters'
>lists. Not to mention the unfair campaign conditions and bias of the
>media.

I fear you are very right on this point. Milosevic and Seselj could
hardly afford to lose if they wanted to save their lives.

>After these elections, it is even more clear that Serbian people
>are in the claws of evil "Serbian" rulers. That is why I suggest to
>stop calling those rulers "Serbian" - since they clearly don't think any
>good to the Serbian people.

Sadly, it is not only cheating which have saved Milosevic at the power.
There have been people voting on him. Far too many.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Serbian barb...eh, self-determination
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:49:39 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Milan Stojanovic (stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu) writes:
>Living under the degenerated rule of
>declared Islamic fundamentalists had nothing to do with that.

The average Islamic fundamentalist is a real nice chap in comparison
with Milan Stojanovic and his buddies. At least he doesn't kill
everyone in sight or engage in meaningless destruction. The Islamic
fundamentalist may be crazy, but he still possess some civilization,
which is less what you can say about the Serbian creatures. Another 
thing which speaks to advantage of the average Islamic fundamentalist 
is that he is a rare item in Bosnia-Hercegovina, whereas there are far
too many Serbian creeps.(*)

>Self determination has meaning only when it is applied to Slovenians,

Yes, because with Serbs, self-determination seems to mean that
"we own 55% of the land in this country, and therefore we have
a right to destruct everything we can't get". The animals on the
farm doesn't have self-determination either.

(*) No, I don't think Serbs in general are lowly creatures, but
Milan and his Serbian friends in Bosnia have proved themselves be.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Understanding the roots of hatred - it comes from the TOP
Keywords: peace, hatred, war, opression
Date: 4 Jan 93 05:02:32 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic) writes:

>And save us of your call for peace after you have conquered our land, moved
>in our houses, and looted our property.  We would forgive you for all that.
>But, 150,000 killed, 50,000 women raped, and 2 mil 'cleansed' will never stop
>crying.  Tell them about your peace.

[...]

>I genuinelly would like to see you being raped, and then call on you for peace
>with your rapist.  I also would like your city being destroyed, and your 
>family killed, and your house full of 'innocent' people.  I want you starve
>to death, live without water, electricity, and be a target for sniper.  And 
>call on you for peace, peace!  I wish all your friends being either killed or
>flattered worldwide, in camps and shelters, with all they have on their backs.
>And tell you: peace, peace!

My cities are being destroyed, my friends are being raped, my family has been
killed (in Sarajevo - I found out recently), my people are starving to death,
living without water, electricity and being a target for sniper!
And I still say: peace, peace, peace!!!

Muris, you don't have a monopoly on being a victim!

>Muris

Ana