From: dburnett@emunix.emich.edu (Don Burnett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: New Amiga(s) Expansion/Future
Date: 10 Oct 92 16:44:55 GMT
Organization: Eastern Michigan University

In article <67346@cup.portal.com> Christopher_Thomas_Winward@cup.portal.com writes:
>
>Just what is Commodore trying to do? How is it possible to develop completely
>dissimilar products in a single product line simply for the sake of product
>differentiation?  The following examples are what I'm talking about:
>
>   1: The development of the A4000 without a SCSI interface. (Obviously).
>
>This means that an A4000 is a scaled-down A3000 with the AA chipset.  It
>has a missing interface port, that highly useful SCSI port, that makes the
>A3000 a truly powerful and extensible system.  'But you can buy one as an
>interface board'.  This may be true, but we all know that more devices
>(and useful ones at that) are able to be produced when developers know
>that their target machines will definitely have hardware built in that
>they can support.
>
  First of all, I have not seen very many (if hardly any at all) SCSI 
  peripherals for the Amiga except hard drives. Most digitizers, etc.
  use either a slot (and not too many of those!) or the Parallel port.
  In fact way too many use the parallel port.. I wish Commodore had 
  put two parallels on the A4000, one that could be used for a printer
  and another for digitizers etc.. Also, I hear from different sources
  that not having SCSI keeps the price down in this very cost conscious
  economy we live in for computer buying.. Plus most PC's use IDE so
  they are readily available.. Nonetheless SCSI does offer better 
  (yet unseen on the Amiga) functionality for plugging different things
  into..

  That certainly will keep people like SUPRA and GVP in business too..
  Also, didn't someone mention a C= SCSI-II card as an option somewhere.

  The price is definitely right on the A4000 though if you need 040 
  power, and if you want the de-interlacer etc.. You can buy the 040
  based A3000 tower with SCSI and tons of expansion still I hear..

>   2: The development of the A600 with fully surface-mounted components.
>
>The A500 is more powerful than this machine because of its sockets and
>expandability.  The missing expansion port is another inconvenience.
>The PCMCIA connector slot that this machine has is definitely a step
>towards the future, and I suppose a version to connect to the A500 could
>be worked out, but this still means that there are going to be very few
>products for a while for that machine.
> 
  Do HOME/GAME users really need this though?? They get 2mb RAM expansion
  and hard drive now built-in.. The A600 is a nice "take-it on the road"
  machine for presentations etc. too.. C= even admitted to still selling
  the C=64, so if there is a demand do you doubt they will stop selling
  the A500??

  The 600 is cheap and small and should introduce many too the Amiga who
  want a cheap machine with a Cheap drive.. It still has the ECS?? No 
  AGA, well Apple still sell plenty of Mac Classics (B&W) alongside
  their Color machines, and the A600 still costs less and graphically
  outperforms it via hardware..


>   3: The development of a CDTV/CD-ROM device for the A500.
>
>Commodore has just introduced the A600, destined to be a replacement for
>the A500.  Which must be exactly why Commodore has just released an
>expansion unit for one of its products which they plan to discontinue.
>It would have been a much more workable solution if they had designed a
>PCMCIA interface to fit the A500 expansion bus, THEN design a CDTV unit
>to plug into the PCMCIA connector.  I guess it was too much for them to do
>something logically at the marketing division?
> 
  There are plenty of A500's out there.. They continue to sell them, just
  as they do the 64.. Maybe the 600 will become more popular.. Comeon
  Commodore give us all a PCMCIA plug in...


>   4: Producing two completely different standards for 'high-end'
>      machines vs. 'low-end'.
>
>   There is no AA chipset in the A600.  There is no 68030 in the A600.
>   There is no way to upgrade any chips other than the processor in
>   ANY of the new surface mount Amigas other than a motherboard swap.
>   
    Again Commodore still sells C=64s like they admitted to, and 
    Apple still sells black and white Macs.. With the chip design
    and technology so different what's wrong with two levels, at
    least C= will make money selling more machines, not giving it
    all to the 3rd party peripheral makers..


>Who in their right mind would ever dare to develop specifically for the
>A4000 and AA chipset when it only comes on one or two of the most
>expensive machines?  No real applications will become available to make
>use of the new chips unless they become standard.  How does Commodore
>figure that making their own machines non-standard in their own product
>line will help them?  The A600 is the machine that will define what types
>of programs will be written for the Amiga line.  Using old, dead processors
>like the original MC68000 along with the ancient 16-bit chipset is not
>going to do anything to advance their state-of-the-art machines.
>Why do they find it necessary to take a step backwards for every step they
>take forwards?  And then they think they're moving? Somebody needs to give
>them a clue at marketing and show them how to get off of the treadmill
>(I KNOW you're running faster, but YOU AREN'T GETTING ANYWHERE *SLAP*).
>  

  Seems to me C= has given many options while not totally obsoleting
  machines, just like Apple does.. 

  The 68000 and ECS in a 600 would still outperform a Mac Classic II for
  games and graphics (a B&W machine no-less).. To make the upgrades they
  have you cant do sub-micron chip technology in the old packaging..

  No real applications?? Well, all the new machines come with 2.x of the
  OS or better.. If they just support that and the display database 
  things will certainly get better.. Let's let 1.3.x die finally..

>   The number of A3000s sold, and the response to its introduction, proves
>that there is a real market out there for the more powerful machines. C=
>now backs away from the power users a bit and gives us a taste of ancient
>technology in their new machines.  The A3000 was and still is a true
>innovation in power from C=.  The A4000 is an A3000 without the SCSI port,
>(but with a removable processor module), with a 68040 (you don't need an
>A4000 for this), and the AA chipset (you can do a motherboard swap for
>this (?)).  Overall, the A3000 looks like an expandable A4000 to me.
>Gives us all lots of reasons to buy the 4000, doesn't it?
>  
  Yes it does if you actually go look at the machine instead of listenin
  to other opinions first.. The custom chips have plenty of useable new
  modes that RETAIN video compatibility and other things that people
  will use for real productivity when they hook up a genlock..
  
>Three technical questions to Commodore: (postage paid to
>                                         cbmvax.commodore.com)
>
>   1: The MC68060 will probably be 64 bit bus, 128 bit internal CPU.
>
>Does the removable processor chip then make sense?  Would you not require
>an adapter board with the chip anyway, which would be what the CPU slot is
>for (this assumes the removable processor module is on the CPU socket itself
>and not the CPU expansion slot, like it would be in an A3000)?
>

It was two years between the A3000 and A4000 (we waited 4 for the A3000)
why not do something about this like put out a new machine, when this 
technology is available??

>   2: Zorro IV slots?
>
>Would it even be useful to come up with a Zorro IV standard for a 64-bit bus
>and if so would it be possible to do that on 100 pins by multiplexing a few
>of them like Zorro III (I realize this requires some assumptions about 68060
>configuration).  Put another way, is it possible to have Zorro II/III/IV-
>compatible expansion slots?
>
>   3: Why not include chipset-expansion cards?
>
>Would it be so much more expensive, if you have to surface-mount the chips,
>to at least allow them to be upgraded by putting them on an expansion card?
>That way you just rip out the chipset board and install a new one to
>upgrade.
>  
  If you read the PR release in comp.sys.amiga.announce you know that they
  said future chipsets would be on a card..

>Disclaimer: I have never seen an A4000, and have only heard of it through
>postings around here, where I got my information.  Correction appreciated
>if any of my assumptions or information is incorrect.
>Sorry for the length, I just couldn't stand to see what it looks like
>they're doing.  And ask about some stuff they may not be.
>

  These kinds of posts belong on ADVOCACY!!


-- 
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EMU Mathematics Lab Consultant

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware