HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com (David D'Antonio)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Any Ideas on things not understood.
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:04:47 GMT
Reply-To: dantonio@flashy.tay2.dec.com
Organization: None to speak of...


In article <92104.101911CCS105@psuvm.psu.edu>, CCS105@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
|>     Things not understood, I have a lot of things to fill in this category.
|>Perhaps this should go on alt. dreams..perhaps not. My question is on different
|>parallel universes, and what happens if you distort them.
|>     I have been warned by friends about certain things I do which seem to
|>distort these parallel universes, takeing into account probability..etc..
|>For example, if you dream something, and then change the events when you find
|>you dream is actually taking place.  Or other things which just change what
|>happens to you in this plain.  My friend went on to say that changes would take
|>place, and not for the better, for you to handle.  Needless to say, I'm a tad
|>bit worried but I do not buy his story.  So if you have any info at all on
|>parallel plains/universes/whatever your particular terminology, please fill
|>me in on your opinion, I would really appreciate it.

Sounds like you're talking about lucid dreaming, wherein you become
aware that you're in a dream and "take control". If you ascribe to the
theory that dreams are "random walks" on the astral plane, then lucid
dreaming consists of conscious wanders therein. Or, put another way,
it's a form of astral travel (out of body experience has also been
described this way). I personally don't think that messing with the
astral plane is gonna bring the nasties down on your (earthly) head.
Of course, it depends on just WHAT you're doing. The theory of Karma
might apply if you're being less than kind to anyone/anything you meet
or just "dreaming up" playmates for various activities. You might want
to consider if you would behave the same way in THIS plane...

|>     Also, if anyone has any ideas on ward barriers/seals, as in the proper
|>way to draw them on paper, I would also like.  It seems once again I find
|>myself between two different styles, with both styles claiming the correct
|>method.  These are things that make life fun I guess.

Can't help ya here, although learning a banishing ritual might be a
wise precaution, in any case...

|>                                             Smitty.

DDA

--
dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com -or- dantonio@sword1.enet.dec.com
  I've tried to dance with what life had to hand me
    My partner's been pleasure, my partner's been pain
				-Stevie Nicks
Xref: sparky alt.magick:2138 alt.pagan:4732
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wednesday, 15 Apr 1992 16:31:23 EDT
From: John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Gender Differences (was Re: masonic morals & dogma)
 <1992Apr13.223733.28964@samba.oit.unc.edu> <1992Apr14.182533.2436@PA.dec.com>
 <1992Apr15.153147.26836@seas.smu.edu>
 <1992Apr15.201529.15305@acsu.buffalo.edu>

In article <1992Apr15.201529.15305@acsu.buffalo.edu>,
oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) says:
>
>Why don't these Masons dress up in armor and go clunking around, if they're
>so interested in tradition?
>
>- Peggy -
>
The Knights Templar branch of Masonry does!  Well, at least they wear
swords to meetings.  The effect is rather comical, however.

>PS:  I'm not entirely against all male organizations.  Didn't choke when
>     the rationale was "so men can concentrate rather than being sexually
>     distracted," though I still have doubts about this too.

I am nominally a Mason but will probably ask for a de-mit this year.
There's not much magick in this organization (at least in my lodge);
any magick is accidental and unintentional.  It's basically a social
club.  I haven't seen anything in the Lodge that would make women
jealous because they were missing out on it.  And I do think the real
reason for all-male lodges goes back to the desire for social solidarity
among hunters.  And perhaps to compensate for their inability to bear
children.

John A. Johnson
[breaking an implicit alt.magick rule by cross-posting to alt.pagan]
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:49:46 GMT

mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:

>Give me a break!  You guys like to go on and on about how magick is a form
>of science

I've never said this; the most I would say along these lines is that magick
is similar to science in that it is doubt based (as opposed to religion (say)
which is faith based).

>>           and then you are unwilling to present evidence of the results of
>your experiments with it. 

what I'm saying (reread my post) is that I am not willing to even discuss 
any experiments I may or may not have performed.

>>                            Not only that, but you say you can't tell me,
>because then your magick won't work and that it will be "throwing pearls
>before swine." 

please be specific. this newsgroup is not a monolithic entity. as far as I 
can see, you are responding to remarks that gerald and I made (seperate 
remarks). you might specifically criticize the individual who made the
remarks you dislike rather than accusing the generic 'you guys'.

_>                I've had the same response from quacks and fakes in many
>different dissiplines.  These are just poor excuses that people use, because
>they are afraid of being exposed and unmasked.  


to be 'exposed' or 'unmasked' as a 'quack' or 'fake' an individual must
have previously made a claim taht is proven to be false. I myself am
very careful not to make any claims that are not independantly verifiable.
I'm sorry that this mostly means that I don't make any claims; that is just 
how it is.

you are of course perfectly free to believe whatever you want 
about anyone at all....


regards,
josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: magik@chinet.chi.il.us (Ben Liberman)
Subject: Re: The Magic Of David Copperfield
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 09:57:25 GMT
Organization: Advanced Robotics, Inc.

In article <25VuiB3w164w@Bogus.COM> phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) writes:
>
>Well, I am not going to say that it is impossible.  A man names John Keely
>did research with something called a Krell Helmet that allowed you to do
>some very interesting things.  I think that it dealt with amplifying the
>brain waves or something.  I can post the article if there is enough interest.


>Hmm, I don't know.  But, I will post that krell helmet article if anyone
>is interested.  I don't know how to make one, but if someone does, I do
>want to try it!

All information on the krell helmet is Forbidden on this Planet
post at your own peril, earthling

morbius@crenelle.chi.il.us
-- 
	------------    ------    ----------------------
	Ben Liberman    USENET    magik@chinet.chi.il.us
	                          magik@crenelle.chi.il.us
From: mayor@ic15.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:08:57 GMT
Reply-To: mayor@ic15.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article 18018@gdr.bath.ac.uk, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
>
>I was wondering if anyone out there might be brave enough
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to share some experiences they've had with ritual magick?
>

Unfortunately, this strikes me as a junior-high way of getting somebody
to do something stupid.

Why would somebody stick their neck (and their energy) out for this?

Why am I even bothering to respond to this?  
Bah! 

---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------"What? You mean burning purple urine isn't normal?!?"---------
----------- email: mayor@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mancer@meltdown.chi.il.us (Matt Sheahan)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: FAQ
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:55:30 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

I could use a FAQ file on this echo.  Considering my handle, I suppose I'm
obligated to keep up with it...

__   /|  All that glitters has a high refractive index.
` o.O    Der Gedanke an den Selbstmord ist ein starkes Trostmittel.
=(___)=  Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
   U     Rub her feet.
 Ack!!   Don't take life too seriously; you'll never get out of it alive.
From: oispeggy@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: masonic morals & dogma
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:49:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <92101.145414J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) writes...
>In article <1992Apr10.152613.22337@acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) says:
>>
>>In article <92101.084109J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A.
>>Johnson)
>>writes...
>>I would like to clarify, however, that I should have put "left-handed"
>>in quotation marks; it was meant as a metaphor in the sense of
>>yin=negative=left-handed vs. yang=positive=right-handed.  It does not
>>refer literally to the use of hands, but to the direction of spiralling
>>energies created by the church rituals (hmm, I guess "spiral" is a
>>metaphor, too).
> 

I still think its silly to say that women would have to do the ritual 
left-handed.

> 
>By "the" Catholic Church you surely mean the Roman Catholic Church.
>The LCC regards the RC church as pretty degenerate because the changes
>in ritual have resulted in a loss of magickal efficacy.

What exactly is the LCC?

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mayor@ic14.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Reply-To: mayor@ic14.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 02:41:54 GMT

In article 57456@cup.portal.com, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:
> [lots-o-stuff]

Very well put, Tagi.  You have voiced what I feel is a much more compassionate
and understanding response to this whole thread.  

booga booga,
cam
---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------"It's about time to change that tired old .sig, cam."---------
----------- email: mayor@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: anwyn@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org (anwyn)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: masonic morals & dogma) 
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 04:37:49 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Horned Owl BBS

Although I have reservations about the wisdom of single sex magical
groups, I feel that the masons have the same constitutional rights
as the rest of us, namely the right to freely choose who they will
meet and associate with. Such rights are important and should not be
dumped when they become temporarily politically unpopular.

anwyn@hrnowl.lonestar.org	(Sysop horned Owl BBS)
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: RE: WAR OF THE SOULS
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:57:07 GMT
Reply-To: Leo Smith <shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk

Well Abner - that is an interesting reality view which is not
terribly inconsistent with Theosophy.

Have you read any of those treatises - 'The Secret Doctrine' by M.
Blavatsky rings a bell.

Its an interesting theory, and one which can explain many aspects of
life.

Does that make it True? Useful? Can it be proved? Disproved?

..you know where I am coming from :-)
From: bvickers@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers)
Subject: Magic & the Scientific Method? (was Re: Ritual Magick Experiences)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Reply-To: bvickers@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: 13 Apr 92 00:42:13 GMT

>mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes...
>>1)  Come up with a hypothesis
>>2)  Conduct experiments.  As a result of those experiments
>>    alter your hypothesis into a theory.
>>3) Present your results to the world.  Your results will only be accepted
>>when other people in other places can replicate the results of your
>>experiments which back up your theory.

oispeggy@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>You don't understand what magick is supposed to be.  You obviously
>haven't made an effort to find out.  If you can't be bothered to find out,
>then why bother airing your opinions?  Simply jump to your conclusion that we
>are deluded and not to be trusted, then get lost.  I can live with that.

C D Burdorf isn't the only one that doesn't understand what "magick" is
supposed to be.  I'm another.  I've seen similar claims from people in
this forum, namely that magick is a scientific endeavor.  Well, all Mr.
Burdorf was asking for was evidence that you magickians follow the
scientific method.  So far, no one's said anything that would convince
me that magick is related to science in the remotest way.

I've read a lot of articles about "spirits" and "possessions" and
"summonings," but I've never seen anyone attempt to use the scientific
method to explain these things.

I personally have nothing against your belief in the supernatural (or what-
ever you prefer to call it), but please don't call it science unless you
can show that you follow scientific methods.

Skeptically yours,

--
bvickers@ics.uci.edu | "Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there
brett@ucippro.bitnet |  is the danger of oppression." - James Madison
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: alphabetic magick squares (long)
Keywords: abra-melin, 'wings of the qabalah'
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 15:14:58 GMT

I've been having some problems due to the interaction between 
my crufty old terminal and my slow modem and my various systems;
this is why this post here that I am following up has some
formatting problems.

the corrections are:

in the various magick squares, the vertical name should read
directly under the first letter (the leftmost letter) of the
horizontal name (except in the first square done on the name
ChAOS wherein (due to the impossibility of writing two letters in 
the space of one in ascii) the verticle name should depend from the
'h' in ChAOS).

and my tree of life is screwed up; I hope it is sufficiently clear.

anyone who wants to fix these problems is welcome to....
(please mail me a copy if you do).

sorry, all...

josh
From: dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com (David D'Antonio)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Intersubjective experiences (was Re: Crowley's Soul and Annata)
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:01:41 GMT
Reply-To: dantonio@flashy.tay2.dec.com
Organization: None to speak of...


In article <1992Apr14.052430.24232@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

[much deleted]

|>(Random addition to the discussion on relating ones magical experiences:  I
|>will relate some of my experiences in person, but will not commit them to
|>writing.  This is not because I am keeping secrets (I do not believe that 
|>anyone has great secrets which they could reveal), but, rather, that it is
|>a *mystery* (something which cannot be explained, but only obliquely referred
|>to, as in poetic language).  Love is a mystery, and I will not attempt to
|>discuss it on the net either.  Either you have experienced it, or you will
|>not understand my explanation.

In my philosophy courses, they called this inter-subjective
experiences and used the example of a headache. If you've never had
one, you can't really understand what I'm talking about when I have
one...We used it more in talking about psychedelic experiences (as
Jimmy said, "Are you experienced?" :-). Either you've been there or
your haven't and my descriptions won't really make sense until you
have. But then, alot of stuff will suddenly click!

|>  However, if I am in the physical presence of
|>someone, I have an opportunity to discover what experiences they have had, 
|>and to adjust my language as I go along.  This improves communication
|>immensely.  Any thing I can say is wrong, but you may understand it anyway.
|>So, I will wait to learn what you are likely to understand before I say
|>anything.  This paragraph is not really directed to the person to whom I am
|>responding--I just noticed my own behavior patterns while making an offer to
|>do in person what I refused to do over the net.)

It's called limited bandwidth. Ya just can't shove enough bits down
the wire to make up for the face-to-face body language, emotive
phrasings, etc. In this case, the next best thing to being there just
ain't good enough.

|>              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
|>                               Br'anArthur

DDA

--
dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com -or- dantonio@sword1.enet.dec.com
  I've tried to dance with what life had to hand me
    My partner's been pleasure, my partner's been pain
				-Stevie Nicks
From: dwatson@lookout.uswest.com (Darryl D. Watson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: straight A's
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:11:53 GMT
Organization: US WEST Communications

In article <1992Apr7.020356.2523@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, mayor@ic17.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor) writes:
> In article 60@edit.mndly.umn.edu, bahn@edit.mndly.umn.edu (Christopher Bahn) writes:
> >In article <92081.115319REGHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> REGHC@CUNYVM.BITNET writes:
> >
> >>Yes I want to get A's in college, How is this possible? Is this some kind
> >>of gimmick?
> >It's MAGICK, of course.
> 
> Yes.  Money is accepted for this kind of magic ;)
> ---

The spell for getting straight A's in college is well-known.

You must read and understand a large number of esoteric
tomes, which coincidentally happen to be listed on your
sylibus (sp?).  You must attend a large number of group
rituals, which *coincidentally* are being held in the
same room and by the the same people as outlined in your
class schedule.  Finally, you must inscribe a number of
magickal symbols on various parchments during various
observances to prove your worth to be initiated into the
ranks of the Illuminati.  

Depending on the coven you go to, this can take two to
four years for your first Degree.

It is almost impossible to obtain membership in college
covens without paying money for their magickal services.

:)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Date: 7 Apr 92 20:35:15 GMT
Reply-To: Leo Smith <shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk

I would say that anyone who charges money for magick will get what is
coming to them.

(Caution: enigmatic statement may disturb your mental balance)

P.S. Tell me how you tell right from wrong, and I might be able to
respond more exactly.
From: oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Gender Differences (was Re: masonic morals & dogma)
Date: 17 Apr 92 20:16:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Apr16.210816.16075@PA.dec.com>, dantonio@flashy.tay2.dec.com writes...
> 
>In article <1992Apr16.185843.20953@acsu.buffalo.edu>, oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
> 
>[much deleted]
> 
>|>>I'm currently reading "You Just Don't Understand" by Dr. Tannen (I
>|>>forget the first name). She points out that there are MAJOR
>|>>differences in how men and women communicate and how they see
>|>>relationships. Failure to understand these differences usually leads
>|>>to arguments and frustration when trying to do "cross-cultural
>|>>communication" (as she puts it). My personal guess for the tendency
>|>>toward single-gender groups has more to do with ease of communication
>|>>and comfort than hunting and inability to have babies.
>|>>

>I think that "He Said, She Said" was taken from her book; not sure,
>though...It's not the levels of communication, it's the purpose and
>implied assumptions of communication that makes it so tricky. If you
>are talking to a person for a specific reason and they are listening
>with an entirely different set of assumptions for why you are
>communicating with them, you're gonna have problems. 

Ok.  Maybe there is something to this.  But is it butter or margarine?  I 
mean, heredity or environment?  

Glad its not my mission to worry about it.  More psycho-babble 
goes on than I can keep up with, though some of it surely is based on 
something.  Another psycho-babble train, which accounts for differences, has 
to do with males having to change from identifying with their mother to their 
father, and (supposedly) becoming emotionally-blocked as a result.  There are 
probably lots of other theories too.  Wake me up when its over and let me 
know who was right.  (This does have something to do with magick somehow.)

>|>I suspect the ideal does not always hold up here.
> 
>The ideal rarely holds up. :-( I'm not sure to what you were refering,
>though.

Not referring to anything.  Figured it was a *safe* observation.  (Like 
everyone sins, but are they sinning in the right "religion"?)

>I agree that it's nonsense of one sort or another and have no desire
>to injure horses of any type over it. :-)

Agreed.  Enough damaged horses lately.  But we started with masons and ended 
with margarine - that must be progress!

>|>
>|>                Get some National Geographic films on baboons.  They will
>|>                teach you everything you wanted to know about human
>|>                interactions.   
>|>                                  - Josh
> 
>It would be funnier if it weren't true!
> 
>--
>dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com -or- dantonio@sword1.enet.dec.com
>  I've tried to dance with what life had to hand me
>    My partner's been pleasure, my partner's been pain
>				-Stevie Nicks


- Peggy -
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Monday, 13 Apr 1992 10:19:11 EDT
From: <CCS105@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Any Ideas on things not understood.

     Things not understood, I have a lot of things to fill in this category.
Perhaps this should go on alt. dreams..perhaps not. My question is on different
parallel universes, and what happens if you distort them.
     I have been warned by friends about certain things I do which seem to
distort these parallel universes, takeing into account probability..etc..
For example, if you dream something, and then change the events when you find
you dream is actually taking place.  Or other things which just change what
happens to you in this plain.  My friend went on to say that changes would take
place, and not for the better, for you to handle.  Needless to say, I'm a tad
bit worried but I do not buy his story.  So if you have any info at all on
parallel plains/universes/whatever your particular terminology, please fill
me in on your opinion, I would really appreciate it.
     Also, if anyone has any ideas on ward barriers/seals, as in the proper
way to draw them on paper, I would also like.  It seems once again I find
myself between two different styles, with both styles claiming the correct
method.  These are things that make life fun I guess.

                                  Gersha,

                                             Smitty.
Xref: sparky alt.magick:2200 alt.pagan:4775