From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Is satan really evil?
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:01:44 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <30420@nntp_server.ems.cdc.com> pwhite@ems.cdc.com writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.112709.1@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>, phys224@csc.canterbury.ac.nz writes:
>|> I've recently read the bible,and am stunned and horrified at the cruety and
>|> irrationality of the christian god. [...]
>Odd, that the One who defines and maintains reason

Pay attention.  S Botha is talking of the Christian god, not of
whoever/whatever it is that defines and maintains reason (if there is
anyone or anything that does that).

>is looked at by one of his creatures as being irrational. 

One of his creatures?  Talk about odd stuff.

>God doesn't demand that we obey under the pain of eternal suffering as much
>as call out to us to come to Him so that we can avoid eternal suffering.

To which our reply is that he is free to get lost.  We don't want to
have anything to do with him.

>TO be without God is to be in eternal suffering.

Just give me that suffering every day, and keep your god for yourself.

>I assume that God is just and that he can see into the future. So rather
>than to say he killed "innocent babies" in the flood, it seems much more
>likely that he saved humanity from a fate worse even than the flood.

Yes, and if I assume that two and two makes five, I can easily prove
that I am the Pope.  The proof can be found in many books of logic.
Now what can you come up with without making that kind of assumptions?

>When we look at the nations that defeated Hitler and Mussolini, we don't
>just say that those nations went around the landscape, annihalating people
>as they go, although we could.

No, we couldn't.  They didn't annihilate people as they went.  No German
or Italian towns or villages had all of their inhabitants killed just
for the fun of it.

>None of the nations destroyed by the
>Israelites were bringing a wonderful civilization to the earth.

How do you know?  Did your god say so?  Since when is it okay to
exterminate a nation just because they are not bringing a wonderful
civilisation to the earth?

>As with Hitler,

False analogy.  Hitler was a dictator and an aggressor.  We don't know
that of the nations whom your belove`d god exterminated.  Besides,
I don't regret that Hitler died, but I wouldn't have supported the
slaughtering of the entire German nation, as you would have it.

>their destruction was sad, but did result in a plus for mankind.

By the same logic, if someone had strangled the baby Jesus in the
cradle, that would have resulted in an enormous plus for mankind.
Think of all the destruction and horror that Christianity has resulted
in for the planet.  Why didn't anyone think of it?

>Evolution is a theory, nothing more. It doesn't make much sense as a 
>theory.

Well, thanks for clarifying this point.  I've been wondering for a
long time.

>Creation is far easier to believe than evolution.

On the contrary, creationism makes no sense whatsoever.  So there.

>[The Bible]'s crowning recommendation is that it talks of a relationship
>with our creator that we can have because of the sacrifice of
>Jesus Christ.

What sacrifice?  There is no such thing as a sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Else I'll have you explain what it was that he sacrificed, and
demonstrate that it was valuable, and that he never got it back.

>Satan portrays himself in a great many ways. The result of believing him
>is always negative.

Says who?

>He is the father of lies, so anything he says is not
>to be trusted as being true in the first place.

Any good reason to trust Paul?  Or Jesus?  Or whoever wrote the OT?
I could say that they were all a pack of liars.

>What's so great about weakening religion, if there is really nothing to 
>it anyway?

The same as about weakening alcoholism.  Or drug addiction.

>Also, the fact that you suppose that it can be weakened says that you
>recognize that there really is something to it in the first place.

Why does that follow?

-- 
 `Haud yer wheesht!  Come oot o the man an gie him peace.' (The Glasgow Gospel)
Ivan A Derzhanski   (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk;  iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc