HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pecampbe@mtu.edu (Paul Campbell)
Subject: Re: California Police Procedure
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:48:18 GMT

In article <1gilv2INNh30@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.SXM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sara MacGilvra) writes:
>Question re: California Police Procedure
>
>
>When pulling over a vehicle for a moving violation is the officer
>required to give any explanation  *before* writing up
>the ticket?  Or can they take the license and reg, check them out,
>run the plates thru the computer, fill out the ticket and then say
>" you did x".  Hand you the ticket and leave.

Yes, they are REQUIRED by whoever registers themselves and their vehicle
to ticket you. You admit that you are incompetent and volunteer yourself
into getting a PRIVILEGE to drive. Then you tell them on the paper you
sign that if you make the slightest mistake, to fine you for screwing up
as a self-imposed punishment.

>Any vehicle code references would be appreciated.

What part of the vehicle code did you not understand when you signed some
form of contract with them stating that you know and understand the contract
that you are signing and agree to all of it's stipulations (the vehicle
code)?
From: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Subject: Re: Assessing Governmental Interest
Date: 18 Dec 92 17:31:08 GMT
Reply-To: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation

In article <1992Dec17.222116.29898@panix.com>, eck@panix.com (Mark 
Eckenwiler) writes:
> >What tests have been prescribed by the federal courts, particularly the 
U.S. 
> >Supreme Court, to determine whether an interest is not legitimate, 
> >legitimate, important, substantial, or compelling?  I'd like to emphasise 
> >that I'm looking for what doctrine exists, rather than individual opinion
> >as 
> >to what interests fit into what categories.
> 
> No-one has ever really had to worry about the compelling interest
> standard, since the Court has never upheld a law in the face of strict
> scrutiny, with the (need I say) questionable exception of _Korematsu_.

What about other interest levels, though?  When does an interest rise above 
the level of legitimate to become important, but still not be compelling?

> I should also warn you that trying to discuss equal protection
> doctrine intelligently in misc.legal is likely to bring down on your
> head mounds of insane drivel . . .

Heh, heh.  Yeah, there's that.  That's why I incredibly optimisticly asked 
that replies be limited to real examples of constitutional doctrine, rather 
than personal opinions and preferences.  

Terry Carroll - tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com - 408/992-2152
The opinions presented above are not necessarily those of a sound mind.
From: bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Subject: Re: Fired for bad email postings
Date: 16 Dec 92 01:22:24 GMT
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer) writes:

> up with my father (a retired attorney) at my side.  The other side's
> lawyer has an absolute conniption, cancelled the deposition, and said
> that he'd seek a protective order barring my father from attending.
> 
> Does anyone know how easy these protective orders are to get, and to
> what extent they actually bar the party?  I mean, could my father still
> wait outside in the lobby, in case I needed to talk to him about an
> issue?
> 
> I'm filing my case in Pro. Per. (without a lawyer), which is why the
> other side's attorney had his conniption.  It was actually quite
> amusing to me, but I don't know doodly squat about the legal system,
> except that using common sense will lead you into trouble.  :)

Yes, he had a 'right' to be unnerved by the presence of another. Filing
your suit stating that you were your own counsel of record means just
that --no other counsel. 

I suggest that you get representation. If you're insistent on moving
ahead, you'd better get counsel who can guide you through the maze,
and help you build a good case. There is nothing to stop your former
employer from filing a countersuit, and taking you to the cleaners.

Also, while courts allow people to act Pro Se, they require that you
conduct yourself in accordance with the rule of law, and don't often
make allowances for a lack of awareness of it. As the old saw goes:
Ignorance of the Law is No Excuse.

Good luck to you!
Keep us up on the 'good stuff' as this goes on. It's interesting.

--- 
Bob Kirkpatrick <bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us>
Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA 
Newsgroups: misc.legal
From: joseph@hardy.u.washington.edu (Joseph Chan)
Subject: car accident and lawsuit
Reply-To: joseph@hardy.u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 23:56:31 GMT

A foreign student involved in a car accident(at his fault) last year, the 
car insurance company has paid the other party.  This week, he received
2 summons and complains, one filed at the Municipal Court of Los Angeles and
one  at the Superior Court of Los Angeles.  The plantiff is the person
involved in the accident last year.  In the complaints, he asked for 
unspecific amount of damage.  In the suit filed with Municipal Court
he suited the defendant and 1 to 10 Inclusive. In the suit filed with
Superior Court, he suited the defendant and 1 to 60 inclusive.

He would like to hire an attorney in Los Angeles area, but the attorney want
$5000 fee in front.  He does not have the money.

Any suggestion how he should defense the case without get him broken financially
will be much appreciated.

If he answers the summons and complaints formally himself, how long does it
take to go on trial in the Municipal Court and/or Superior Court of 
Los Angeles?

The plantiff hired 2 separate attorneys, one for each case.  Can the plantiff
suit the defendant twice for same case?  Can plantiff suit and collect money
from defendant after he received money from car insurance company?

Any suggestion or help will be appreciated.


Joseph Chan
joseph@bofur.bioeng.washington.edu


Newsgroups: misc.legal
From: bmiller@lunatix.uucp (Barry Miller)
Subject: Re: Good Legal Writing 
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 255-9121
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:50:05 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Larry Kolodney (lkk@panix.com) wrote:
: 
: That's BRUCE Selya, a very conservative member of the 1st Circuit.
: The opinions of his that I have read tend to have a really sarcastic
: tone to them.  He's definitely anti-plaintiff.
: 
: --

Thanks.  He was definitely anti the plaintiff's attorney in this
case -- even affirmed the trial court's use of prior poor
lawyering in deciding to levy sanctions, despite the fact that
the sanctions would likely have more impact on the attorney's
client.  He wrote (quoting himself, I think,): "[T]he argument
that the sins of the attorney should not be visted upon the
client is a seductive one . . . its siren call is overborne by
the nature of the adversary system."  960 F.2d at 246.

I didn't sense much sarcasm in this opinion though.  Maybe I'll
have to read some other opinons.

--Barry
 
Newsgroups: misc.legal
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re:  Good Legal Writing
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 18:24:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.063603.5214@u.washington.edu> tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
>>>I believe that it was U.S. ex rel. Moyer v. Satan and his Helpers.  
>>
>>Actually, the case was U.S. ex rel. Mayer v. Satan and His Staff.
>
>Actually, it's U.S. ex rel. Mayo v. Satan and His Staff, 54 F.R.F. 282
>(W.D.Pa. 1971).

Actually, it's 54 FRD 282 (W D Pa 1971).

Ted "note the punctuation savings achieved by the Maroonbook" Frank
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: misc.legal,talk.environment,sci.environment,sci.bio,alt.activism,rec.backcountry
From: pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis)
Subject: Re: Government to Grant Swift Endangered Species Act Protection to Hundreds of Imperiled Species
Organization: Precipitating Pendulums Postal Party Poopers
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 19:49:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.182903.19389@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>The word 'government' is used twice which is about twice too often.
>And the nastier word 'court' is used at least once which hints of
>lawyers, a species lower than pond scum that is in absolutely no
>danger of extinction, though it should be.

Its interesting that someone who has in the past (correct me if I'm
wrong) supported the notion of property rights as a paen to many
problems has such a problem with lawyers. Most property rights
advocates that I know see courts, and presumably lawyers by
implication, as a very integral part of their desired society. This is
one of the best criticisms of libertarianism that I know, actually.

-- paul



-- 
hybrid rather than pure; compromising rather than clean;    | Militant Agnostic
distorted rather than straightforward; ambiguous rather than| I Don't Know
articulated; both-and rather than either-or; the difficult  |   and You Don't
unity of inclusion rather than the easy unity of exclusion. |   Know Either
Newsgroups: misc.legal,soc.men,soc.women,soc.singles
From: mwhhlaw!tim (Timothy E. Hollingsworth)
Subject: Re: Interesting contract question
Reply-To: uunet!mwhhlaw!tim
Organization: Martin Wade Hartley & Hollingsworth
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 12:45:27 GMT

In article <16DEC199220070732@oregon.uoregon.edu> dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu  
(Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be) writes:
> Before I joined the organization I am now with, we ordered a subscription to  
an
> area newspaper.  The pattern that eventually developed was silent acceptance
> and postpayment.  In July of this year, we decided to cancel the  
subscription. 
> My predecessor as treasurer stopped paying.  Unfortunately, the deliveries
> continued, and I sent an affirmative cancellation in November, disputing the
> time the contract ended.
> 
> Next, in response to the final bill, we attempted to send an accord and
> satisfaction payment based on what we guessed was a reasonable time for the
> paper to assume we were no longer accepting performance.  They held the check
> without cashing.  I did receive a message that they had called the day after  
I
> sent the check, but they never responded when I left a message on their
> machine.
> 
> Today, I spoke with them (finally) and they told me that the only way to end
> the contract was to affirmatively cancel it.  I disputed that, on the grounds
> that even if we were postpaying, four months without payment is long enough  
to 
> determine that we had decided to cancel.
> 
> As we stand, we agree that we owe what we offered, and they agree that we do
> not owe the papers that have been arriving since we sent the affirmative
> cancellation.  The three months or so in between are disputed.
> 
> Any suggestions?

Since you hold yourself out as "Attorney to be" (more accurately "lawyer to be"  
- there is a difference); check out an area know as quasi-contracts.  I think  
you will find that acceptance of performance usually makes a party liable for  
payment, even if there is no contract in the traditional sense.

--
Tim Hollingsworth
Newsgroups: misc.legal
From: rynes@slc3.ins.cwru.edu (Edward M. Rynes - M.E.D./P.o.D.)
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Subject: Re: SUPREME COURT DECISIONS
Date: 14 Dec 1992 20:11:17 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc3.ins.cwru.edu

sskinner@csws2.ic.sunysb.edu (Scott E Skinner) writes:
>Does anyone know where to find recent Supreme
>Court decisions on the net?  I used to get them
>from 129.22.8.75 but I am not sure if this 
>address is valid anymore.

That machine was shut down quite a while ago. (It couldn't handle the load)
Please use the FQDN ftp.cwru.edu.  That is guarenteed to point to the
correct machine. (even if we swap hardware again)
-- 
Edward M. Rynes  <rynes@INS.CWRU.Edu>              "Even in my drunken stupor
Information Network Services                I've got to admire your ingenuity
Case Western Reserve University               And I nod my head, oh so wisely
Cleveland, OH  44106-7072                      to the rhythm of your cruelty"
Newsgroups: misc.legal
From: bhayden@teal.csn.org (Bruce Hayden)
Subject: Re: parol evidence (was: Re: Who's weakening the constitution?)
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:18:59 GMT

al@gtx.uucp (Alan Filipski) writes:

>In article <1992Dec13.163402.7080@panix.com>, lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney) 
>writes:
>> Like any other contract,  you must refer to the
>> plain language of the contract [you know, the parol evidence rule], to
>> determine what it means. 

>Can someone explain this in more detail or give a reference?  what is
>"parol evidence"? (I missed a part of this thread, so i apologize if
>this has been answered, but I am very interested in knowing more about
>this.)

Oral or verbal evidence; that which is given by word of mouth; 
the ordinary kind of evidence given by witnesses in court. In
particular sense, and with reference to contracts, deeds, wills,
and other writings, parol evidence is the same as extraneous 
evidence or evidence aliunde.
	Blacks Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition

Bruce E. Hayden
(303) 758-8400
bhayden@csn.org

Newsgroups: misc.legal,talk.abortion,soc.men,soc.women
From: kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy)
Subject: Re: Pre-Sex Contract
Keywords: RU486
Organization: Who, me???
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:23:54 GMT

In article <19441@smoke.brl.mil> matt@smoke.brl.mil (Matthew Rosenblatt) writes:
>In article <1992Dec5.184937.7439@rotag.mi.org> kevin@rotag.mi.org 
>(Kevin Darcy) writes:
>
>>. . . Between
>>the time of conception and childbirth, though, the woman wields absolute
>>power, with only limited responsibility for the consequences of her action
>>or inaction. THAT is the inequity to be addressed, not what happens before
>>conception.   [Kevin Darcy]
>
>The girl's "absolute power" is illusory if her moral convictions
>make it impossible for her to terminate her pregnancy.  

A) If she had such "moral convictions" she should have told him about them
   in the first place

B) I challenge you to identify any "traditional" belief-system which
   forbids abortion while at the same time condoning pre-marital or
   extra-marital sexual intercourse. Doesn't it seem rather, er, convenient 
   for a woman to flagrantly violate her moral teachings up until the point 
   of conception, and then try to hide behind them afterwards?

C) Her "moral convictions", assuming she is a mentally-competent adult, are
   her own choice, and her own responsibility. If I had a "moral conviction"
   that Matthew Rosenblatt should immediately grant me all of his assets and
   income, and I acted on that "moral conviction" by first trying to steal
   your car, how much weight do you think that "moral conviction" would carry
   in a court of law?

>The same goes for a man who has moral convictions against using RU486
>to terminate his girl-friend's unwanted (by him!) pregnancy.  

Without her consent, you mean? Since when are people allowed to make risky
changes to other people's body chemistry without their consent? "Moral 
conviction" or no "moral conviction", this is chemical assault & battery 
you're proposing, and the state has every right to forbid it on social
policy grounds.

>All that this goes to show is that often, we must be prepared to
>pay a price for our moral convictions.  

Fine. But just don't ask a man to pay through the nose for his sex partner's
moral convictions. He should pay for his, and she should pay for hers. That
sounds fair to me.

								- Kevin
Newsgroups: misc.legal
From: RJB@jhuvm.hcf.jhu.edu (Rodney Baker)
Subject: Computer Software for Law Students
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:53:42 GMT

Hello,

I am looking for a last minute x-mas gift for my wife who is in her
1st year of law school.  Does anyone know of a store where I might
find some software for our 386 MS-DOS machine that could help her
throughout her school career?

I live in between Baltimore and Washington D.C. (Glen Burnie if that
means anything :-)  If you can actually recomend a software package,
I'd be doubly appreciative!!!

My e-mail address is rjb@jhuvm.hcf.jhu.edu.

Thanks in advance to anyone and everyone who responds to this last
minute plea for help!!!


- Rodney Baker
  The Johns Hopkins University
  E-mail: rjb@jhuvm.hcf.jhu.edu
From: bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Subject: Re: Fired for bad email postings
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:06:50 GMT
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

bhayden@teal.csn.org (Bruce Hayden) writes:

> tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
> 
> >bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:
> >>Yes, he had a 'right' to be unnerved by the presence of another. Filing
> >>your suit stating that you were your own counsel of record means just
> >>that --no other counsel. 
> 
> >I've got a question here (we don't really get into depositions
> >until next term in civil procedure).  Why can't you have someone
> >else there?  A quick examination of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure
> >failed to turn up an answer to this.  On the other hand, the Rules are
> >what people should have been citing a while back in that earlier thread
> >about hard-to-read legal writing, so I am not at all confident that I
> >was even in the right section!
> 
> Of course there aren't rules against it. I think that it is a question
> of the lawyer trying to use the law against someone without reprentation,
> then getting upset when he can't take advantage of the situation.


Tim: you can take the advice which sounds the best --in terms of how you'd
like it to go, or you can take the route that gives you a better chance of
winning --or in some of these cases, surviving financially.

If you really don't know what you're doing, then you should move to have
a co-counsel join you. This will still allow you the participation you'd
like, but add that safety net as well.

It's your life.
--- 
Bob Kirkpatrick <bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us>
Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA
From: bmiller@lunatix.uucp (Barry Miller)
Subject: Re: Good Legal Writing
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 255-9121
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:59:29 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Ted Frank (thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec20.002623.7194@u.washington.edu> tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
: >thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
: >>>>Actually, the case was U.S. ex rel. Mayer v. Satan and His Staff.
: >>>Actually, it's U.S. ex rel. Mayo v. Satan and His Staff, 54 F.R.F. 282
: >>>(W.D.Pa. 1971).
: >>Actually, it's 54 FRD 282 (W D Pa 1971).
: >>
: >>Ted "note the punctuation savings achieved by the Maroonbook" Frank
: >
: >But note the vast decline in the grade I will receive in Basic Legal
: >Skills if I use the Maroonbook when the instructor asked for Bluebook!
: 
: He or she obviously needs to be shown The One True Way. 
: 
: >Thus, it is Bluebook I shall be memorizing over Winter break rather
: >than Maroonbook...
: 
: Advantage #373 of Maroonbook over Bluebook: no memorization necessary.
: Any "Uniform System of Citation" that requires the efforts of a winter
: break to learn is hardly "uniform."  At any rate, the Bluebook is only
: encouraging the monopoly of West Publishing.
: 
: >--Tim Smith
: 
: Ted "Gerry Masoudi wannabe" Frank

One of the local circuit judges came to speak to our legal
writing class first semester of the first year.  One of my
classmates -- who was destined for law review from his birth (and
his life shall ever be a footnote) -- asked what I am sure was a
brilliant question on legal citation.  The judge, trying not to
laugh too hard at the question, told him:  "Hell, son, if I can
find it, you cited it right."

I take it the maroonbook embodies a similar philosophy?

--Barry

Newsgroups: misc.legal
From: FREE3117@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Sexual harrassment
Organization: C.C.S.O.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 08:05:43 GMT

I posted a letterthat said that a professor at the University
said he would destroy me.  Since then the file with
the capricious grading complaint involving him was stolen from my apartment
and my note asking for advice about ongoing sexual harrassment was removed
from the misc.legal section.  I am more than ever interested in hearing from
others in a similar situation and would appreciate any advice.  Thank you.
 
 
Newsgroups: misc.legal
From: margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis)
Subject: Query re: self-defense
Summary: Lethal force against rape:  Self-defense or something else?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:24:05 GMT
Distribution: USA
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.16e by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed
Keywords: self-defense, rape

The following is from an NYPD Auxiliary Police training guide, in a section
on law - specifically, "Use of deadly physical force by private citizens":

   If you reasonably believe that a person is committing or attempting
   to commit a KIDNAPPING, FORCIBLE RAPE, FORCIBLE SODOMY or a ROBBERY
   you may use deadly physical force IF NECESSARY to PREVENT or TERMINATE
   these crimes.

A question that's come up is, does this constitute "self defense", or does
this fall under some other classification?  And, if something else, what?

I'd also be interested in any references to any state laws specifying that
deadly force can be used to protect against rape (or in any other situation
where it's not protecting against a deadly threat).  E.g., I've seen
sections of the Texas Penal Code governing the use of deadly force to
protect property.

Thanks in advance.
--
Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: misc.legal