From: jis@panix.com (Jack Szwergold)
Subject: Re: Why I hate Sinead
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:18:32 GMT
Organization: Panix, NYC

In <BxJDqI.HFv@acsu.buffalo.edu> feit@acsu.buffalo.edu (Elissa Feit) writes:

>In article <1992Nov9.152721.17813@panix.com> jis@panix.com (Jack Szwergold) writes:
>(I said:)
>>>Some of us STILL don't support the last little war (which resulted in
>>>the death of, oh, a million or more Iraqis). I think wearing a US flag
>>>*is* similar to wearing SS insignia...  and you're comment about "we
>>
>>Excuse me, but you are really naive.  I hated the Gulf war.  I hate Nazi'a
>>also.  Comparing the two is idiotic.  The thing about Hussein that made me
>Yes, you are right. I need to be clearer in my comparison, because to
>*equate* the two is belittling to those who died  from the Nazis...
>On the other hand, I do see the two as incredibly similar. A million died
>because of *us* in Iraq. Yet people blindly supported the war because
>of patriotic fervor... the same reason Germans supported their govt.
>throughout WWII.

Name me ONE country where there is NOT patriotic fever (and disent) during
a war....  We killed millions of people there, and Hussein is still alive,
that, it the real fucked up thing about the war.  War stinks.  Death
stinks.  The Gulf War (as the Vietnam War and others) are bullshit because
lives were wasted for no reason whatsoever.  Nothing was accomplished
during the Gulf War.  In fact, I would have rather went went to war with
the pure purpose of killing Hussein rather than say we are liberating the
"poor" Kuwaities (is that spelled right?).  I mean, they are richer than
sin, and can easilly buy there own army...
But back to the point.....
You compared (equated, whatever you want to call it) with the Nazis which
is a real naive thing to do.  Both incidents were vile in their own way,
but they were NOT the same....

>and I said (a bit our of context here):
>>>won".  ?!?!?!?!?!?  Oh!!!! I forgot!! That makes OUR side right. So
>>>that if the Nazis had won, THEY would have been right.  I see. There is no
>>>morality outside of might...  [didn't Socrates debate this with the Sophists
>>>2500 years ago? haven't we fucking figured it out by now?]
>>
>>You are fucked up.  Let me give you a reason WHY the U.S. not as fascist
>>as you believe.  If I objected to the Nazis, you know what would happen to
>>mea.  I WOULD BE DEAD (the same goes for countries and governmental
>...

>This makes no sense. I was responding to the earlier exchange where
>one person implied that the reason it was ok to be a jingoistic Amer.
>but NOT a jingoistic German was because *we beat the Germans*. I
>happen to think either is fucked. The Nazis were immoral, nay, evil.
>Because they were.  and NOT because we beat them.  My point was that
>the morality did NOT depend on the winning team. I believe we are in
>agreement here.

Ummmm you equated might to morality.  No smiley faces, and no saracasm. 
If I took it the wro g way fin, but I am sure that there are others who
believe that YOU believe in that fact....

>>What I am trying to say is that you don't know what freedom is until you
>>have been truly oppressed and to be as stupid as to assume that you can
>>actually understand what true oppression, without having really gone
>>through it is naive and childish (just like Sinead). 

>Look, in the US alone, four women a day are killed by men, and every
>18 seconds a woman is battered. I was sexually attacked by 2 older
>boys when I was 10, and fought them off. I was raped by a stranger
>with a gun (with a fucking gun!) when I was 21. These are things many
>of my friends do not know about me, because I don't mention them much.
>Every day, every woman is harrassed or catcalled or worse.  There is
>no sense of freedom. We cannot walk alone at night, or even jog alone
>in broad daylight!
>DO NOT TELL ME I DO NOT KNOW WHAT OPPRESSION IS.  
>Don't EVER fucking tell a woman she does not know what oppression is.

You don't know what oppression is, and by putting balme on ALL men for
what happened to you you are no better than any oppressors.  I don't mean
to belittle anything that has happened to you in the past. But you ARE
BLAMING A WHOLE NATION FOR YOUR INDIVIDUAL PROBLEMS!!!! And THAT is
stupid? Whatever happened to the people who attacked you?  Did you report
it?  Or try to find them and have them arrested.  If you didn't you have
not right to talk.  If I am attacked (and I'm a man, you know)  I will go
and make sure the cops go and bust the asshole who fucked me up.  That is
a RIGHT in this country.  The fact that you can do that seperates us from
many other nations in which victims have no (and I mean NONE) rights
whatsoever.  Fuck, in Eastern European nations, the cops are the
equivalent of the gestapo.  Sure not all cops are pure in thise country
either, but you have the ability to fight back if you wish.  And if you
don't that's your choice (by fight back I mean legally.  I don't mean to
imply that you should have been attacked because you never PHYSICALLY
fought back your attackers.  Frankly, I believe all rapists should have
their balls cut off.)

>>>I hate you all
>>>(not really)
>>
>>Please spare me with your UnitedStatesisfascistscum rant.  The fact that
>>you can even voice your opinion is proof that you are tremendously wrong.

>And Martin Luther King was not assassinated? (I'm no King - I'm not
>saying I am... I'm simply giving a couter example to the "Oh The US is
>abso-fucking-lutely fantastic because I can complain about how bad the
>conditions are" argument.  Meanwhile the conditions *still* suck. And
>being ablet to voice it is, of course, desirable, but it doesn't make
>them suck any less.)

Fuck you to high heavan because you still don't get it. I'm not jingoistic
fool.  The USA is fucked up in many ways (AS I STATED IN MY REPLY WHICH
YOU ERASED).  Our healthcare system sux, women are still oppressed, right
wing racism still exists, the elderly are treated like shit, the homeless
are still homeless, etc... etc... (I can go on for pages Elaine)....
The thing that makes this country better than most is that you can voice
your opinion, and you can fight for change.  King was killed.  Was it the
governments fault?  I don't think so.  There are tons of people out there
right now fighting for change and trying to make the U.S. better.  They
aren't Jogo assholes (like that DOG guy), but they are caring people who
know that they can make a difference if they try.  It's hard but it can be
done.  I have tons of punk friends who are intelligent and tons of punk
friends who are hate mongers.  Those hat mongers are full of shit because
they complain that everything sux, but the fact is that if things were to
change towards what they want, they would still bitch and moan.  Sinead is
a person filled with hate.  She doesn't care, adn she milks her fans for
all they are worth.....  If you want to change this country stop watching
MTV and getting politics from compact disks and tapes and albums, and do
something.......

Jack
jis@panix.com

PS: just so you know that I'm not focusing purely on punks and the like, I
think that ANYONE (Dead Heads, Hip Hop kids, Metal Heads, Goths,
Industrial types, etc....) are friggin stupid if they think they can get
all their politics from music