HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: demento@jksclub.scol.pa.us (Ben Barrett)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Intent (was Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics)
Date: 7 Apr 92 10:00:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: jksclub.XZuuiB3w164w
Organization: The Clubhouse, Bellefonte, PA

wooledge@ces.cwru.edu (Gregory Wooledge) writes:

> minotaur@labyrnth.via.mind.org (The Minotaur) writes:
> 
> >Remember, most
> >courts require that there be *intent* to commit an act in order for it
> >to be illegal.
> 
> >The bruiser:  Is intent alone enough to convict?
> 
> Certainly.  "Attempted murder", for example, is a crime.  Someone should not
> be let go just because (s)he failed in an attempt to perform a crime.  (S)he
> will probably try again.
> -- 
> Greg Wooledge		/..\			Wizard in training.
> wooledge@ces.cwru.edu	\--/ Have a day.

yes, this is true, but will the world ever come to an age where unjust 
conviction will be just not happening...?
Will we ever be able to determine whether a crime was not attempted, or 
if it was failed?
If so, what will determine this, man or machine?
post replies, but email me also, as I'm not a regular reader of 
alt.cyberpunk.....                      demento@hogbbs.scol.pa.us
                                        jammin@jksclub.scol.pa.us  <----

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Computers... the silicon opium...   (   \
  demento (Ben Barrett)               +  |\
  co-sysop@ 863-7245,               )   /\ \
  Little Mac BBS... call today!!          \_}
From: chmilar@Apple.COM (Michael Chmilar)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:48:24 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

wooledge@ces.cwru.edu (Gregory Wooledge) writes:

>Presently, we have Playboy (and a host of other magazines), TV, movies, etc.
>All of these media give us images of people to convince us to pay money to
>the makers of these images.  As a side-effect of this, some people say to
>themselves, "I want to look like that."  And these people emulate these images
>and adore them.

This is a "chicken and egg" situation.

>In the earlier part of this century we ... did have movies.
>Before that, we had books.  The books were often illustrated, but sometimes the
>descriptions of the heroes were carried out using text only.  Both had the
>same effect: the characters in the books became role-models, and were emulated
>and adored.
>And plays.  And epic poetry.  And songs.  And royalty.  And dreams.  And so on.

Books and poetry require some imagination on the reader's part.  Even if a
character is thoroughly described, the reader will tend to "project" the
character onto someone of his or her acquaintance.

Watching a movie in a theatre, especially in "the old days", is different
from tv because it is a communal experience.  Tv is often viewed in isolation.

>You seem to be concerned that man will immerse himself in VR and alienate
>himself from reality.  To that I say: don't be concerned.  I have two answers:

With the current extremely primitive and crappy state of VR technology, I
am not too worried.  I am also hoping that investors will realize that VR
is an even bigger money sink than military tech, and that most supposed
VR "researchers" and developers have no true vision, and will stop financing
the creation of a gigantic, interactive, full sense, communal version of
Mario Bros.

>2) Some people will be more likely to "trap" themselves than others.  Consider
>   VR to be an evolutionary obstacle.  Those who are trapped by it to the
>   exclusion of real-life activities will die off.  Those who aren't will
>   survive.  It's simply natural selection in a new realm.  (YES, I am a
>   "social Darwinist".)

I agree.  (However, I am not clear on what the difference is between darwinism
and social darwinism.)
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tuesday, 7 Apr 1992 08:29:54 CDT
From: <U30471@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: cp music
 <1992Apr2.215419.25337@ucselx.sdsu.edu>

In article <1992Apr2.215419.25337@ucselx.sdsu.edu>, maxc0197@ucselx.sdsu.edu
(Chris "I shall pass" Preston) says:
>
>I recommend Tangerine Dream for instrumental stuff.  perfect while in
>the net.
>        For those hectic combat scenes, any heavy metal will do, and I
>reccomend Suicidal Tendancies and Ministry.  Of course In Soc (In
>Sauce) works well for general purposes.

 Ministry is NOT heavy metal.  It's industrial/alternative.
 Skinny puppy is my personal favourite, especially for spooky
background music.


----The Cockroach
From: bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Term in Gibson's "Mona Lisa Overdrive"
Date: 16 Apr 92 00:38:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <32977@darkstar.ucsc.edu> speth@cats.ucsc.edu (James Gustave) writes:
>
>>?????  I thought that they are the multiple personalites of T-As AI that
>>broke loose after the core was dumped in Neuromancer.  Can anyone
>>comment on this?  Thanks.
>
>I agree... I don't think it's ever specifically stated as such, but that
>was the conclusion I reached also.
>However, I'd also include other various matrix-rogues in the loa, too.
>Such as Dixie Flatline, and any other various virii/worms/ICE/ICE-breakers
>that got loose on their own.

	Dixie and his construct are dead, dead, dead.  Honest.  Read
Neuromancer again.  No chance for him to be running about.
	And it's also (cannot recall which specific books) stated in
fairly (heh) plain English that the gods in the net were created
when the T-A AI (Wintermute & Neuromancer, I suppose) "became a part
of something larger" (or whatever the precise wording is) --
basically released upon the Net.  At that time it became aware of
another entity -- in another star system -- and that's what somehow
created the gods of which Gibson talks about.
	So...while that explanation of mine isn't exactly, oh,
CLEAR, that's what I recall from reading the books.

>In order to represent themselves to humans in an understandable form, they
>draw on a human mythology -> the loa.

	Agreed.  Precedent was set for this way back when Wintermute
was appearing to Case as various people he knew.

Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Intent (was Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics)
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 00:02:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.163148.27349@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> wooledge@ces.cwru.edu (Gregory Wooledge) writes:
>>The bruiser:  Is intent alone enough to convict?

>Certainly.  "Attempted murder", for example, is a crime.

Attempted murder requires an attempt as well as intent.
-- 
-- Peter da Silva. Taronga Park BBS.  +1 713 568 0480 2400/n/8/1.
-- `-_-'                                         1032 PEP/2400/n/8/1.
--  'U`    "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
From: hughes@gary.enet.dec.com (Gary Hughes - VMS Development)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Mondo 2000:  The Book
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:01:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Apr9.224322.15379@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, ahawks@isis.cs.du.edu (andy) writes...
>_Mondo 2000:  A User's Guide to the New Edge_
>	-Cyberpunk, Virtual Reality, Wetware, Designer Aphrodisiacs, Artificial
>Life, Techno-Erotic Paganism and More...
>	by RU Sirius and Queen Mu
>	$17.00 paperback [damn!!] 
>	JUNE

So, is this just a collection of stuff from back issues, or something new?

gary
From: mcdougal@lonestar.utsa.edu (Jon . McDougal)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: RPG
Keywords: Cyberpunk, Rifts, duh.
Date: 15 Apr 92 06:20:17 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio


    I have a few of the books for Rifts and while it does not contain
any of the Net type features in the CP genre, it DOES however have a large
selection of cyberware as well as bionics (Borgs) and the people in the
current city of Chi-Town (Chicago of tomorrow) are called City Rats and
act like most of the common people in CP books. A great deal of theft,
violence, cyber-ganging, violence, plundering, and violence take place
on the streets, and nobody is truly happy.

    It is a decent game, but not for people who have only recently started
gaming, and it is not for the die-hard CP fan. Like I said, nothing even
vaguely resembles the next, and not much stress is place on the cyber
aspect of people... not when they can be magic, psionic, or even from another
fraggin' dimension. Still, it is a good source book for ideas.

Gleaming the cubed net,
                    Jon
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13676 alt.cyberpunk:1987 misc.legal:8958
From: jheath@CERIS.Purdue.EDU (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Intent (was Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics)
Date: 7 Apr 92 21:05:56 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

From article <RFBEH69@taronga.com>, by peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva):
> In article <1992Apr6.163148.27349@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> wooledge@ces.cwru.edu (Gregory Wooledge) writes:
>>>The bruiser:  Is intent alone enough to convict?
> 
>>Certainly.  "Attempted murder", for example, is a crime.
> 
> Attempted murder requires an attempt as well as intent.
>

What about conspiracy?  How does that differ from attempted
murder (no attempt?)?   What about these cases where someone
tries to hire someone to kill someone?  'Course that would be an
attempt.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas More)
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13880 alt.cyberpunk:2016 misc.legal:9058
From: wooledge@ces.cwru.edu (Gregory Wooledge)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:28:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr9.142836.28661
Organization: Crusaders for Truth

kim3@husc10.harvard.edu (Jason Kim) writes:

>My opinion is that when the day comes (in about 100 years!) that the world is
>connected by a virtual reality network, people will no longer feel the need to 
>improve their physical appearances, as their interpersonal relationships will
>be based mainly on their cyberspace aliases.

I still have trouble accepting this.  Holographic "phone" calls, I can take.
Excursions into VR for a bit of entertainment I can take.  But I don't think
we'll ever see the day that *everyone* spends *all* his/her time in VR.

>I think that everyone on such a net
>will learn to value the *substantial* things in others, rather than just their 
>physical charm (insubstantial because it is accidental and temporary)

This would be nice, I agree.  But it is extremely unlikely, IMHO.

>If everyone can look like the ideal
>model, then the value of having an ideal appearance drops to nothing, and the
>value of looks as a criterion of personal worth drops to nothing.

Utopia.  It won't happen.

>Firstly, why would one "die off" just because he or she
>spends a lot of time in VR?

I meant "die" in the evolutionary sense -- failure to procreate.  Someone who
spends 17 hours a day in VR and the other 7 eating and sleeping will have
little time left over for sex.  (And I wasn't the one that put this thread in
alt.sex.  It just appeared here.)

>More importantly, what is it that makes anyone think a propensity for
>computers/VR is *inheritable*?

That depends on how you are using the term "propensity".  I like my computer
just about as much as anyone else.  But that doesn't mean I'm addicted to it.

On the other hand, alcoholism is an inheritable addiction, if my memory is
still on-line.

>Even if it were, Mendel's Law of Segregation (remember Hardy-Weinberg?) would
>prevent such a "social evolution" from completely eradicating the "VR-lover"
>gene from the human gene pool for about a thousand generations.

I never said it would be fast. :)
-- 
Greg Wooledge		/..\			Wizard in training.
wooledge@ces.cwru.edu	\--/ Have a day.
From: hkhenson@cup.portal.com (H Keith Henson)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Cryonics background material available
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 23:23:14 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

I have about 60k of first hand accounts of the most recent two cryonic
suspensions done by Alcor.  Any budding SF writers who would like copies
are welcome.  If only a few are interested, I will send by email, 
if more, will just post here or in alt.callahans with a pointer to it.
Keith Henson  hkhenson@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: ddoherty@ics.uci.edu (Donald Doherty)
Subject: Re: Term in Gibson's "Mona Lisa Overdrive"
Reply-To: ddoherty@ics.uci.edu (Donald Doherty)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:41:30 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.020706.9199@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes:
>
>Loa is a term from voodoo, as is Baron Samedi,etc.  Gibson
>apparently sees voodoo as some sort of channel for these
>extraterrestrial transhuman whatevers that live in the 
>net.  Or at least that's how I read it.
>
>J. Del Col

?????  I thought that they are the multiple personalites of T-As AI that
broke loose after the core was dumped in Neuromancer.  Can anyone
comment on this?  Thanks.

Don
From: arnold@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us (Jonathan Hefler)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: RPG
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 20:29:14 EDT
Organization: Princeton High School, Princeton, New Jersey

Hi! I have recently been reading a new manual for a Role Playing Game 
called "RIFTS" and it mentioned Cyberpunk in it, so I thought I'd call 
in. Anyway, I am wondering if there is anyone out there who has played or 
Knows of RIFTS and would like to talk about it. Thanx.

-----
Jonathan Hefler, Princeton High School BBS
DNS: arnold@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us      UUCP: ...!princeton!phsbbs!arnold
Disclaimer: Author bears full responsibility for this message.
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13675 alt.cyberpunk:1985 misc.legal:8957
From: tismith@plains.NoDak.edu (Timothy Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Copy right of photos (was something about VR ethics)
Date: 7 Apr 92 21:19:40 GMT
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND


     I read an interesting story once that was about the copy righting
of a person's photo.  It seemed that a certain local sheriff looked 
alot like some movie star.  When he went for re-election, his photo was
put on the posters, but few people could tell the difference between 
he and the movie star, so the movie star sued and won.  The sherif was
then forced to recieve plastic surgery.  In retaliation, the sheriff
learned everything about the star and could act exactly like the star.
He then showed his ability to the star, but there was nothing that could
be doneabout mannerisms though.  The rest was basically how he lost his
wife to his madness and all that.  It was really interesting.


-Tim Smith
tismith@plains.nodak.edu
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13588 alt.cyberpunk:1963 misc.legal:8900
From: cg108fai@icogsci1.ucsd.edu (Steerpike)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Intent (was Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics)
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:59:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: sdcc12.31397
Followup-To: alt.sex
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <mumble> wooledge@ces.cwru.edu (Gregory Wooledge) writes:
>minotaur@labyrnth.via.mind.org (The Minotaur) writes:
>>Remember, most courts require that there be *intent* to commit an act 
>>in order for it to be illegal.
>>The bruiser:  Is intent alone enough to convict?

>Certainly.  "Attempted murder", for example, is a crime.  
Wrong. "Attempted murder" means you actually TRIED to kill someone.
Intent alone cannot convict, because it cannot be proven. If you can
prove it, then it depends on local laws (intent is usually
classified as conspiracy).

If intent was enough to convict, everyone on this newsgroup would be
in jail for something (data piracy, maybe?). :)

steerpike@ucsd.edu
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13546 alt.cyberpunk:1955 misc.legal:8870
From: jessec@yang.earlham.edu
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics
Date: 4 Apr 92 18:38:39 GMT
 <1992Mar31.104856.16665@yang.earlham.edu> <1992Apr2.020825.28358@kestrel.edu>
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana

In article <1992Apr2.020825.28358@kestrel.edu>, king@reasoning.com (Dick King) writes:
> In article <1992Mar31.104856.16665@yang.earlham.edu> jessec@yang.earlham.edu
> writes:
>>
>> [said of people who commite virtual violent acts in virtual reality]
>>		  Simulated violence doesn't go outside the bounds of the 
>>simulation, but it does imply things about the psychology and world view 
>>of the enactor...
> 
> People have been commiting simulated violence for a hundreds of years.  Some of
> them are even nice people.
> 
> I'd type in some concrete examples, but tonight is my fencing night.
> 
> -dk

   Cute!  Hmm.  I think that you have to take into account the type of 
"simulated violence" and the spirit it's done in.  It would be hard to 
imagine an innocent, playful, fun simulation of sexual assault, for 
instance.  And if your fencing was done in a spirit of real murderousness, 
then, hey, I *would* be pretty turned off by it.
   Subtleties!  What would philosophical bullshit be without 'em? :-)
   Later...


        --Jesse.
From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: More info on voodoo in Gibson
Date: 15 Apr 92 12:35:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr15.123552.22385
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


I think Gibson posits some link between the voodoo pantheon
and aci  activities in cyberspace.  Loa is a voodoo term
derived from the Yoruba term lwa meaning spirit or mystery.
Baron Samedi, the entitiy that wipes out Viereck(sp) is the
chief graveyard spirit venereated in the area around Port-au Prince.
A legba is a joker or trickster spirit that allows evil to 
work in the world through its incompetent meddling with the
rules that govern the working of the world.  Loas use humans
as chwals or horses to carry mee  messages, work charms, etc.

There is an implied link between all this mystical realm and
cyberspace in COUNT ZERO, and the Finn suggests that the
net is full of spooks, possibly of extraterrestrial origin.
Anyway, it's much too deus ex machina :-) for me.

J. Del Col
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
From: wooledge@ces.cwru.edu (Gregory Wooledge)
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Organization: Crusaders for Truth
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 20:40:32 GMT

chmilar@Apple.COM (Michael Chmilar) writes:

>All of this implies a "dangerous" social situation:  people will only
>desire a "perfect" partner, which they can create/modify in virtual reality,
>and ignore less perfect "real" people.

I think you underestimate people slightly.

>People see these images and characters, and then look at real people around
>them and say "I don't want this, I want the perfection that I see on
>television."  As a result, they do not interact with the real people in
>their lives, and are reluctant to form real commitments and relationships.

Certainly this influence exists, and I do not attempt to deny it.  But think
a bit more....

Presently, we have Playboy (and a host of other magazines), TV, movies, etc.
All of these media give us images of people to convince us to pay money to
the makers of these images.  As a side-effect of this, some people say to
themselves, "I want to look like that."  And these people emulate these images
and adore them.

In the earlier part of this century we didn't have airbrushed Playboy models
(and indeed no Playboy).  We didn't have TV, but we did have movies.  At that
time, the movies made an impression upon the people of America and tried to
present aesthetically pleasing persons.  The purpose of this was to get people
to pay money to the makers of the movies.  The actors became role-models, and
were emulated and adored.

Before that, we had books.  The books were often illustrated, but sometimes the
descriptions of the heroes were carried out using text only.  Both had the
same effect: the characters in the books became role-models, and were emulated
and adored.

And plays.  And epic poetry.  And songs.  And royalty.  And dreams.  And so on.

Our technology is increasing, and our consumption of role-model images is
becoming more widespread.  But such trends have existed throughout history
and they haven't destroyed us yet.  I'd consider it to be simply a
manifestation of man's desire to improve himself.

You seem to be concerned that man will immerse himself in VR and alienate
himself from reality.  To that I say: don't be concerned.  I have two answers:

1) People are better able to separate themselves from their fantasies than
   that.  A fantasy may last a long time and may be extremely deep.  But it
   always ends.

2) Some people will be more likely to "trap" themselves than others.  Consider
   VR to be an evolutionary obstacle.  Those who are trapped by it to the
   exclusion of real-life activities will die off.  Those who aren't will
   survive.  It's simply natural selection in a new realm.  (YES, I am a
   "social Darwinist".)
-- 
Greg Wooledge		/..\			Wizard in training.
wooledge@ces.cwru.edu	\--/ Have a day.
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: jwtlai@jeeves.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai)
Subject: Re: Clarifications on _Neuromancer_
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 08:32:16 GMT

In article <wm79iB1w164w@netlink.cts.com> jdriver@netlink.cts.com (John Driver) writes:
>           Page ten of the paperback.  "A millimeter of white 
>showed beneath each of her pupils.  Sanpaku."  What is 
>"Sanpaku"?  It is not in my dictionary.  I suspect it is some 
>drug that causes dilation of pupils (profound huh?).

Look up "sanpakugan".  It means "upturned eyes".  (Check in a Japanese
dictionary if you haven't already.)

>Also, what/where is "Ninsei"?  Used in the context of "the Ninsei 
>crowd", ". . . Chiba City tolerated the Ninsei enclave".  

It seems to be meant as the name of a district either inside or nearby Chiba
City.  Enclave means that it is distinct either culturally or territorially.

>And. . . what are "pocket VTR's"?  Thanks. 

Videotape recorders.
From: Spinner@f4.n290.z1.aisbbs.com (Spinner)
Sender: postmaster@aisbbs.com
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: cp music
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1992 18:57:38

 P> >"Computer Love" by Techmaster B.E.P.

 P> Are you sure Computer Love isn't by KRAFTWERK? Or has my mind

I have a KraftWerk CD with Computer Love on it.  Kinda silly.

inqs-aran cox-spinner

Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
From: jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick)
Subject: Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 19:41:30 GMT

In <1992Apr4.133839.16737@yang.earlham.edu> jessec@yang.earlham.edu writes:
>Hmm.  I think that you have to take into account the type of "simulated 
>violence" and the spirit it's done in.  It would be hard to imagine an 
>innocent, playful, fun simulation of sexual assault, for instance.

It would be hard to imagine an innocent, playful, fun Terminator movie.

What's your point?

                            Jim Lick		       
Work: University of California	| Play: 6657 El Colegio #24
      Santa Barbara		|       Isla Vista, CA 93117-4280
      Dept. of Mechanical Engr. |	(805) 968-0189 voice/msg
      2311 Engr II Building     | "when you gonna make up your mind?
      (805) 893-4113            |  when you gonna love you as much
      jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu	|  as i do?" -Tori Amos
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk