HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Religious Freedom/Bill of rights
Date: 18 Nov 92 06:27:32 GMT
Organization: FNAL

In article <Nov.15.22.10.54.1992.23878@geneva.rutgers.edu>
Deon.Strydom@f1.n7104.z5.fidonet.org writes:
>Hi,
>As some of you know, we are moving towards more freedom here in South
>Africa.  One of the items hotly under discussion at the moment is a
>Bill of Rights, and then specifically a Religious Freedom Clause.
>Here is the latest proposal for such a clause:

I would only add, that there should be an attached article of hermenutics. 
They way things change so rapidly today, what a word or phrase meant today,
could be interpreted to mean just the oposite tomorrow.  Just look at how our
Supreme Court rulings having taken on the cloak of the legislature. --Rex
From: cho@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (Il Hyung Cho)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Better than Daily Bread
Date: 19 Nov 92 07:18:53 GMT
Organization: LORAL - Western Development Labs

In article <Nov.17.03.32.12.1992.26462@geneva.rutgers.edu>,
paul@mr.med.ge.com (Chuck Paul 4-6544 MRCE) wrote:
> 
> There are other devotional guides better than Daily
> Bread.
> 
> I can provide address info for them if you wish.
> Just ask.
> 
> Daily Bread is good, but other ones do more to get
> the reader into the scriptures--by passage, not just
> by a single verse.
> 
-----------------------

Actually, does anyone have any other recommendations
regarding devotional guides for Youth & College/Young Adult
Certain guides like the DB and the Upper Room is very
hard to relate or they discuss things like marriage, family,
etc that I cannot currently relate to.   Any and all feedback
is welcomed.

Thank you

Il Hyung Cho
Macintosh Systems Support
LORAL - Western Development Labs
Internet:  cho@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
From: hamilton@hydra.cs.gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Daily devotional guides
Date: 22 Nov 92 22:51:01 GMT
Reply-To: hamilton@gmr.com
Organization: GM Research Labs, Warren, MI

Another excellent source of devotional guides is

Walk through the Bible 
P. O. Box 477
Mt. Morris, IL
61054

They publish several guides, each in the form of 12 monthly issues

1. Daily Walk - a devotional guide that takes you through the Bible every
   year. Subscription cost is $18.00/year I believe.

2. Family Walk - a family devotional guide

3. Youth Walk - a devotional guide aimed at teenagers

4. Closer Walk -  A devotional guide which takes you through the New Testament
   every year (with a shorter OT ref for each day also). It's $18/year.
   In addition to the scripture reading, each day's reading includes thoughts
   on the scripture reading by a Christian figure of the past - I've seen
   them quote Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Luther, C. S. Lewis, Wesley and
   many others.  Each monthly issue includes a paragraph on each figure
   quoted, with a longer (usually one full page) writeup on one of them.
   Closer Walk is the my favorite - probably because of my interest in
   Christian History.

Bill Hamilton
From: watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian Jokes
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:23:26 GMT

This from the "Pontius Puddle" strip in a recent United Church Observer:

"There are no atheists in fox-holes....
..and very few Christians in traffic jams!"
From: trull@physics.usc.edu (Steve Trullinger)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian Fellowship Network
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:56:59 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA

Announcing the Christian Fellowship Network, a group of dedicated Christians
serving each other:

We are a rapidly expanding group of Christian brothers and sisters who have
come together in fellowship to help minister to each other through prayer,
exchange praise reports and to disseminate news of general interest to
Christians.

We communicate with each other through a modern voice-mail network which
offers very rapid transmission of prayer requests and other messages to
other members of the network.  Members of a congregation may communicate
at the push of a button not only with other members of their local
congregation, but also with the entire nation-wide network if they have
an urgent prayer need.

The power of collective prayer is being realized by the members of this
network of brethren who have taken to heart the Lord's admonishment to
seek fellowship with each other and to minister to one another.

       "And let us consider how we may spur one another on
          toward love and good deeds."
                                          Heb. 10:24

To obtain more information about this network and how to join in
fellowship, please call

               (310) 519-4276

Or send a self-addressed, stamped (two stamps, please), business-size
envelope to:
C

       Christian FellowshipOA Network
       21213-B Hawthorne Blvd., Suite 5326
       Torrance, CA 90509

Please pass this message along to your Christian brothers and sisters.
 


-- 
Steven E. Trullinger          Internet: trull@physics.usc.edu   (128.125.1.194)
Dept. of Physics              Arpanet:  trull@usc-physics.arpa
Univ. of Southern Calif.      UUCP:     ...{uunet,sdcrdcf}!oberon!physics!trull
Los Angeles, CA 90089-0484    Phone:    (213)740-1102
From: wright@sunny.dab.ge.com (Michael Wright)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: no title given
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:38:38 GMT
Reply-To: wright@sunny.dab.ge.com
Organization: General Electric SCSD, Daytona Beach FL

Subject: Trips to Holyland
Keywords: 

Can anyone tell me of any planned trips to Israel for Christians in 1993?

Thanks in advance
From: tony@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Anthony R. Benitez)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christian Jokes
Date: 15 Nov 92 23:40:08 GMT
Organization: Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, Texas

President Bush dies and goes to Heaven, and is waiting at the Pearly
Gates for entrance.  St.Peter comes out and tells him "Sorry, Mr. Bush,
we have a temporary space problem and it will be several hours before
we can get you in, but we will allow you to request anyone within to
come out and chat with you while you wait."

"Well" Mr. Bush thinks, "I think I'd really like to talk to old Moses"

"No problem" St.Peter replies, "I know just where he is! I'll be back
in just a minute."

St.Peter approaches old Moses and calls "Hey, Moses, there's a Bush out
here that want to talk to you."

Moses replies, "I'm not talking to NO BUSH! The last time I talked to a
bush, i wandered in the wilderness for forty years!"

**********************************************************************
tony
From: meyr@ursa.calvin.edu (Bob Meyering)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Nudity - Why be ashamed?
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:21:09 GMT
Organization: Calvin College

A10035@email.mot.com (Scott Lindsey) writes:

>In article <Nov.13.02.11.37.1992.19184@geneva.rutgers.edu>, 
>mmrwlm@sn370.utica.ge.com (Wanda L McCrae) writes:
>>.... 
>> If our bodies were sinful, Christ would have been sinful.  Since
>> Christ was without sin and he was human, I don't know if we can say that 
>> our bodies are sinful.

>Wanda, you have missed a fundamental point. We are sinful and were born
>sinful because we have the seed of Adam in us. Jesus did not. 

Sin has to do with the total person.  All dimensions of the human
person are stained by sin.  The fact that we are physical beings, that
we possess bodies, that we are body, mind, and spirit, ought not to
lead to a condemnation of our bodies and the overvaluing of something
called the soul or the spirit.  God created us physical beings capable
of communion with God.  Christians believe in the resurrection of the
body.  Christ redeems the whole person!
--
                     ***  Meyr@Calvin.Edu  ***
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know. --Michel De
Montaigne
From: hovingh@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (William Hovingh)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Jesus, not dogma
Date: 18 Nov 92 10:13:55 GMT
Organization: Student, Louisville Presbyterian Seminary

Anyone who knows Presbyterians knows that doctrine is dear to (many of) our
hearts.  But for *some* of us, these sometimes-dry doctrinal discussions are
the way we come to Christ.  Take me, for instance.  If a friend of mine hadn't
piqued my intellectual interest by describing the Arminian controversy, I
might never have taken the time to find out that the Christian faith made sense
and had something important to teach me.  I like to think of the image of being
chased by the Hound of God who, finally, captures me by the most convenient 
flap in my clothing: my intellect.

I didn't know at the time what I was signing up for; I've since found out that
God wants to change more about me than my mind.  But I still believe that God's
particular call to me includes devoting my life to serious engagement in the
process of "faith seeking understanding" (St. Anselm's definition of theology).

It doesn't work for me just to say that I "believe in Jesus" unless I can tell
you what I *mean* when I say that -- and I've encountered enough *very*
different understandings of what that phrase means that I want to be very
careful about what I say.  The consequence is that serious talk about doctrine
is an indispensable part of my faith journey.

bill hovingh
wjhovi01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bored in Eternity...
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:52:43 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

dwjurkat@mailbox.syr.edu (Jurkat) writes:

>Just exactly what do you do when you're in heaven?  Eternity is rather long. 

LIVE!  Not just exist... LIVE!  With Life Himself, in intimate marriage.
("Life's a banquet, and most poor bastards are starving to death."
  -- Aunt Mame)

If I may turn your question around...
Just exactly what do you do when you're on earth?  Life is rather short.

-- 
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Need Christian Jokes...
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:02:15 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

One day a non-Christian was explaining why he didn't believe
in God to a friend. "Remember when I took that vacation in
Alaska?  I was out ice fishing in the middle of this frozen 
lake, and I slipped and fell in.  I knew I'd die if I didn't
get out and get medical attention quick, so I asked God to
help me. But apparently HE was too busy."

"Ummm...what do you mean?", his friend asked.  "You're here, 
aren't you? You didn't die."

"Oh..." said the non-Christian, "an ESKIMO came and got me out."

I got this one from a non-Christian source (Carrie Fisher's
_PostCards From the Edge_) but I truely love it...particularily
since I've been priviledged to meet a few Eskimos.  Fisher 
credits this story as being why "people who bring people into
AA are called 'eskimos'."

-jen
From: xxbrent@convx1.lerc.nasa.gov (Brent Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Messiah Soon?
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:28:54 GMT

Greetings!

I have some questions on the subject of the return of Christ:

Do most Christians believe that we are living in the "End Times"?
What are the signs of the "End Times"?  (Bible quotes, if possible)
What are some common interpretations of these verses?
Where does the term "Rapture" originate, and what does it mean?
How will people recognize Christ when He returns?
What is the purpose of His returning?

I would appreciate seeing various opinions posted on this subject.
I have been told different things by some of my Christian friends
and relatives, and I would like to try to get a fuller picture
of people's beliefs.  Thanks in advance.

--
Brent Anderson
xxbrent@convx1.lerc.nasa.gov
From: news@cbnewsk.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Door-to-Door evang..
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:23:39 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs

In article <Nov.15.22.31.28.1992.24100@geneva.rutgers.edu> bill@bessel.as.utexas.edu (William H. Jefferys) writes:
>I agree with this, and I'll go further: such evangelism is 
>actually counter-productive, and likely to turn people 
>against your message.

>If you really want to spread your message effectively,
>live your life in such a manner that others will want to
>imitate you. Volunteer your time to help the poor, the
>downtrodden, the sick, those of whom Jesus was speaking
>when he said, "inasmuch as you have done it to the least
>of these, you have done it to me." (See also Mt. 5:16).
>

Each is given his own calling.  Door-to-door evangelism, or witnessing
is worthwhile.  In a ten block area there is one person who is lonely,
unable to see any meaning to life.  He's not sick, he isn't downtrodden,
he isn't depressed.  He's just in a rut.  He may be disenchanted with
his own church.  Door-to-door evangelism revitalizes, offers a new perspective,
challenges and excites this person.  The gospel is good news.  And witnessing
means giving personal knowledge of God in your life.  Someone who sees how
happy others are and realizes what he is missing in his own life may start
asking of life the questions that need to be asked that may inspire a conversion
experience.  Think.  We are often willing to open up to a stranger if that
stranger has been open first.  And rejection is a cause for rejoicing, 'be
happy when they persecute you for my sake.'  Those who do respond are likely 
to be avid participants.  God cares about all people, and he doesn't give credit
to the evangelists for conversions, he simply works through them.  The evangelists
receive their own reward, since the good news is something they want to share.
Those who slam the door often are the same who have slammed the door to God.

Joe Moore
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Recommend edition of the Summa?
Date: 18 Nov 92 06:27:46 GMT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Thanks to all those who helped me out with references on Thomism,
I am now avidly reading Etienne Gilson (_The Spirit of Mediaeval
Philosophy_, _God and Philosophy_ and Pegis's _A Gilson Reader_). 
I only wish I had discovered him years ago.

I now need suggestions of what edition of the Summa to buy (if I
can afford it).  My classical Latin doesn't help me much with
mediaeval philosophical Latin.  (This often makes even reading
Gilson a problem.)  I need an edition of the Summa with original
Latin text, *good* English (but see below) translation, and
*plenty* of notes on language & terminology.

I have a hunch there isn't any such animal in print in English
(hope I'm wrong); however I can also use a French, German or
Spanish edition.

Suggestions here if you think readership would be interested, or
email.
-- 
-Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> 
 OPINIONS ARE MY OWN
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: hell and heaven
Date: 23 Nov 92 01:57:42 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

In article <Nov.20.00.47.53.1992.11849@athos.rutgers.edu> phys224@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz writes:
>just one question about hell,etc...
>what happens if a christian marries an atheist (say) (as has happened with
>my parents) and they both die...how is it possible for the christian partner
>to be happy in heaven in the knowledge that their partner is suffering
>eternally?( a question for you fundementalists out there.)

Jesus was asked the question what happens to a wife whose
husband dies and who then marries his brother, and when he dies
the bext, for seven brothers. In heaven does she have seven
husbands. Jesus answers simply that there is no marriage in
heaven.

Many put across a rather sentimental view of heaven, which
seems to involve family groups re-uniting again. Indeed, when I
put the above quote (sorry I can't remeber the exact chapter
and verse, but it was the gospel in the RC Church a couple of
Sundays ago) to an LDS missionary who stopped me once, she
refused to believe it existed, so contradictory was it to her
belief.

I think we can assume that in heaven our human relationships
pale into insignificance compared to our relationship with God.

Matthew Huntbach


[Mark 12:25 and parallels --clh]
From: chuan@stein.u.washington.edu (Chuan Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Ends justify the means?
Date: 22 Nov 92 22:40:39 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

[fear of hell might lead someone into returning to Christianity]

The non-believers always accuse the Christains using this tactics to
bring them to Christ.  But I am wondering: how can this be possible?

If my doctor tells me that I am going to die tomorrow, sure I will be
scared because I know what dying means.  But if I don't believe in
"hell" or its existence, I just don't know how I am going to be
threatened by this thing so-called "hell", which in turn "forces" me
to believe in Christ.  I believe there is a better way to preach the
Gospel.

Chuan Lee
From: rowland@tne01.tele.nokia.fi
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Oneness Pentacostals
Date: 15 Nov 92 23:09:00 GMT
Organization: Nokia Telecommunications.


  I was reading a report concerning one mission event in which the 
  choir was a 'Oneness Pentacostal' choir.  The inference in the 
  article was that this was a discredit to the enterprise, but I 
  didn't understanding why.  Does anyone out there know anything 
  about the distinctives of 'Oneness Pentacostals' ?

  -

  Kevin Rowland
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: British Israelites & Herbert Armstrong
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:43:02 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <Nov.11.03.00.44.1992.15128@geneva.rutgers.edu>, kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes:
> People who are participating in this discussion may be interested in an
> article on page 57 of the 9 November 1992 issue of Christianity Today.

There have been reports of changing theology with in the World
Wide Church of God, since Armstrongs death.  I've got an article
that is about a year old - they are moving towards more mainline
doctrine and have consulted some school of theology for help on this.

Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: suicide- is it a sin in God's eyes.
Date: 18 Nov 92 10:19:46 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

Hmm, I would agree that it is a sin.  It is murder in a sense.
However, I think a more important question is whether or not it is a
forgivable sin.

I don't know if this is Catholic doctrine or not, but when I was a
kid, I recall that my friends who were going through confirmation
thought that since committing suicide gave you no chance for
repentance/confession, you were doomed to enter hell.  While I
may not agree with that doctrine, it might give someone pause
long enough to get over a suicidal depression.

On the other hand, bereaved loved ones may be more comforted by
knowing that there is possibility for redemption in cases of
suicide.
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
  - Grad school - just say no.
From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Cell Group Churches and Leadership
Date: 23 Nov 92 02:07:48 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


 >Don't you require your pastors to be educated?

Sure we do -- they have to go through 4 levels of training: the Year of
Equipping, Small Group Leader Training, Small Group Coordinator Training,
and Zone Pastor training.  But I suppose what you're asking is, "Don't you
require your pastors to go to seminary?"  The answer is no -- instead, we
require our pastors to have demonstrated fruitfulness.

 >But they also need to be able to preach the word accurately, and
 >that needs training in hermeneutics, Greek and Hebrew, and exegesis.
 >Further they need to be trained in apologetics, and in cross-cultural
 >communication from the Christian sub-culture to the materialists and
 >post-modernists that are outside of (and very often, inside of) the
 >Church.

My first reaction: really?

(OK, with that out of my system...)  Correct me if I read you wrong,
but you seem to imply that *preaching* is one of the most important
jobs of a pastor, if not _the_ most important job.

This may be true in traditional church settings, in which pastors are
expected mainly to preach "good sermons".  This is not the case in
cell churches, though.  At my church, the most important job of a
zone pastor is to oversee the small groups in his zone; everything
takes second place to that, nothing must compete with it.

Our zone pastors almost never preach on Sunday morning.  Still, it
does happen once in a while, so...

 >One does not have to follow modern seminary style for that education

...so that's why Zone Pastor Interns, in the 4th level of training, will
take classes in the mornings (afternoons and evenings are devoted to
ministry), no doubt on a variety of topics.  But the main thrust of their
training will be on leading a zone of small groups to bear fruit in
evangelism and discipleship.

-- 
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
From: whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Liberal/New Age Religion (Was: Santeria and animal-sacrifice)
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:33:10 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <Nov.15.22.26.07.1992.24018@geneva.rutgers.edu>, ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell) writes:
> Pluralism is the disease which may well destroy the United States of America
> and quite possibly in our own lifetimes. ...
> 
> I unabashedly say to those who would prefer to return to the pagan rites
> and value systems of the occultic to go somewhere else. I AM for barring
> them even though the Constitution seems to protect them because over and
> above the Constitution also sits the law of common sense and above that
> Divine law itself. 

It is precisely the attitude expressed here that those who are not
'fudamentalist Christians' fear most in public policy--and for which
we look to the Constitutional barrier between church and State as
protection.  If we have something to fear, rather than pluralism, it
is any one group insisting that they have a lock on truth for all
time.

	--Hal
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: S.Courtenage@cs.ucl.ac.uk (SA Courtenage)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Taize query
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:19:14 GMT

I would like to know how I can apply to go to this Christian retreat
in France. Does anyone have an address for Taize that I can write to?

Thank you

Simon Courtenage		Email: scourten@uk.ac.ucl.cs
Dept of Computer Science
University College London
London WC1E
England