HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 7 Nov 1992 16:07:58 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
Reply-To: williamt@athena.Eng.sun.com (Dances with Drums)
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena

In article <BxBCp7.BC8@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums) writes:
>
>>In article  891666t@dragon.acadiau.ca (Trish Turliuk) writes:
>>>The fact is we see *one-type* of women portrayed everywhere as the idealized
>>>women and even this isn't a real type for she is subjected to hours of makeup
>>>and airbrushing before she goes in front of the camera. The majority of women
>>>don't see themselves reflected in society at all. How many models have you  
>>>seen with crooked teeth?
>>----
>>	I had to take issue with this.  When was the last time you saw
>>a car in a car add anywhere that was dented and/or scratched, paint
>>bleached out, seats torn, tires flat or worn, windshield cracked, rag
>>top torn, etc etc etc...  The fact is when advertisers are selling somethink,
>>they want to use 'perfect' models.
>
>What does this mean? Are they selling women on TV now?
>
>al
----
	Duh.  Women are used as 'model's on which to hang products that
are sold.  Also, models are looked at for their own sake -- just as
you can buy calendars of cars for their own sake.  Nothing is being sold
except the vision of the car (or women) itself.

-wat-
--
 --- "If women really earned fifty-nine cents to the dollar for the same
 work as men, what business could compete effectively by hiring men at
 any level?"    -- Dr. Warren Farrell
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: QQQCLC
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:44:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.100954.601@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> y0000028@rzab0.rz.tu-bs.de (Kielhorn) writes:
>The whole thing is a plot to make women feel uneasy. As long as they 
>have _problems_ with their weight, they won't interfere in politic, science etc.
>They are occupied creating/restoring their beauty (Which by the ways cost 
>a lot and supports a powerful chemical industry) and we (men) can go on as
>we like it.

	Hey, cool! Why should groups like alt.alien.visitors get to be
the only ones arguing conspiracy theories and paranoid delusions? Thank
you so much for spreading the wealth around!

						Kayembee :-)
Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1681 soc.women:19265 alt.feminism:4127 soc.men:19031
From: kytan@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com (Kok-Yong Tan)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:41:39 GMT
	<lfnqeuINNrso@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> <1992Nov7.171526.5511@wam.umd.edu>
Organization: Organised?  Here?  Hahahahahahahaha.....

In article <1992Nov7.171526.5511@wam.umd.edu> sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Steve Russell) writes:

>One problem: Cars are inanimate objects that cant feel hurt.  Women are thinkingfeeling human beings who are psychologically hurt being USED like a hunk of
>metal to sell a product.  Women may be partially responsible for their mental
>health in this matter as suggested by the person who claimed it was all
>a self-esteem problem.  Okay.  By the same line of reasoning I cant blaim
>someone who hurts me by punching me in my mouth.  Afterall, it is partially
>my responsibility for not blocking the blow and striking back.  If Im not
>in good enough shape to ward off attack I guess it is still my fault.
>I could have had let other things I value in my life go while I worked out
>to prepare for being attacked.  Why should I blame the person who struck
>me?  Enough of the sarcasm.  Do you see what Im saying.  People are hurt
>by having society being programmed to expect others to live up to an ideal
>image.  Just because someone may have the capacity to help themselves in
>the face of an injustice doesnt make the injustice less of an injustice.

Okay, since you brought up being punched in the mouth: Nothing stops you from
punching the other guy back in the mouth, does it?  Or taking a 2x4 and
wrapping it around his skull?  In the same vein, just as CatWoman (aka Diana)
mentioned, if a male puts up an Elle calendar and a female is
insulted/hurt/whatever, she can also put up a Chippendale calendar or a picture
of aforesaid male with a pin through the face or anything deemed even more
insulting and then if both parties don't complain, that's the end of it.  Why
bring up the legislation issue?  This is not a case where one is physically
inferior to the other and thus unable to retaliate.

--
===============================================================================
Kok-Yong Tan, 			  	| My words are my own: 
Fixed Income Analytics Group, 	  	| My bosses know naught.
Merrill Lynch,			  	| Wherever they're sown,
World Financial Center, North Tower, 	| Just I should be sought.
New York, NY 10281-1315.	  	|		- K. Y. Tan, 5 Feb 1992
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
InterNet: kytan@fia.dmg.ml.com (Merrill Lynch)
	  75046.256@compuserve.com (CompuServe)
===============================================================================
Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1538 soc.women:18934 alt.feminism:3814 soc.men:18749
From: williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 6 Nov 1992 17:48:37 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
Reply-To: williamt@athena.Eng.sun.com (Dances with Drums)
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena

In article  891666t@dragon.acadiau.ca (Trish Turliuk) writes:
>The fact is we see *one-type* of women portrayed everywhere as the idealized
>women and even this isn't a real type for she is subjected to hours of makeup
>and airbrushing before she goes in front of the camera. The majority of women
>don't see themselves reflected in society at all. How many models have you  
>seen with crooked teeth?
----
	I had to take issue with this.  When was the last time you saw
a car in a car add anywhere that was dented and/or scratched, paint
bleached out, seats torn, tires flat or worn, windshield cracked, rag
top torn, etc etc etc...  The fact is when advertisers are selling somethink,
they want to use 'perfect' models.  They don't want to show us anything
necessarily realistic.  I don't find my car represented or reflected
in the media any more than the average woman finds her body represented
there.  Should I regard this is as some horrible plot directed at me,
or does it make more sense to realize that this is 'madison avenue' and
should be taken as ignorable.  

-wat-
--
 --- "If women really earned fifty-nine cents to the dollar for the same
 work as men, what business could compete effectively by hiring men at
 any level?"    -- Dr. Warren Farrell
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 22:53:57 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.202426.29752@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.185317.28903@cbnews.cb.att.com> lib@cbnews.cb.att.com (Lib) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov5.170627.20310@cs.nott.ac.uk> rji@trellis.cs.nott.ac.uk (Rob Ingram) writes:
>>>
>>>The problem is that most of the images we see in advertising are of
>>>women who are really too thin for their height but this is portrayed
>>>as an ideal. This is difficult to achieve for most women and so this
>>>leads to obsessive behavior and eating disorders.
>>
>>Odd. I thought that the reason all the models were too slim for their
>>height was that such people photograph better, not that Madison
>>Avenue wants to portray it as an ideal.
>
>This super-slim fashion model trend had its advent in the sixties with Twiggy,
>and then just sorta' "stuck".  I think that part of the reason for the success
>of this trend is that the clothing designers have an easier time displaying
>their designs to best advantage on skinnier (flatter) women, simply because
>they have less of the curves that might otherwise affect the shape of the
>garment as worn.  This applies a bit less so to swimwear models.  The downside
>for the industry is that a lot of these folx end up designing garments that
>_only_ look good on women who are fairly skinny.  That leaves out a rather
>large chunk of the market (composed of real-world women).
>
>>I don't understand why they
>>would want to do that. It's no doubt true women see this as an ideal
>>an try to emulate it just like men try to emulate the Marlboro man
>>and assorted types who drink beer.
>>

{nit-pick on}
{sarcasm on}
I always thought Twiggy was created as a reflection of a pre-existing attitude,
rather than the root cause of an entire social phenomenon; but, hey we all know
I have wierd ideas on cause and effect.
{nit-pick off}
{sarcasm off}

Hmm, is that old saying that one looks fatter on TV (or in pix) true?

I mean, has anybody ever actually run tests of people's perceptions with
weight-guessing of pix and real people by a couple controlled groups?

And how would you account for the possibility that people may *expect* to see
people thinner because that's what you always see?  [Thus, they may
automatically add/subtract to account for the difference they [sub]conciously
expect.]
-- 
"TANSTAAFL"     lynch@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: jim@neb (Jim Hood)
Subject: nude in playboy - dumb question
Organization: Nebula - Public Access Unix/bbs SLC Ut, USA
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:32:25 GMT

Sorry, I must be in a bad mood today.  Mabie I should be reading
alt.flame, but...

>dcarter@supra.East.Sun.COM (Dave Carter-Sun-Atlanta GA-Atlanta District MCC) writes:
>: She is nude in this months PLAYBOY issue, can see much though.
>: A few other models in there, can't remember who off hand
>: ---
>:
>
>Which issue is that?

Since it was identified as THIS MONTHS playboy....
If you check the Message-ID line
-> Message-ID: <1992Nov10.105251.26701>
It quite clearly states what month/year it is.

-jim
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*     Jim Hood     | mail/uucp: ..!uplherc.upl.com!neb!jim                  *
*    (alternate)   | mail/uucp: ..!uunet!hellgate.utah.edu!caeco!neb!jim    *
* For you @ people |               neb!jim@uplherc.upl.com                  *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*   Nebula - A Public Access Unix system/bbs  - Salt Lake City, Utah  USA   *
*   Public Node  (801)-572-4969    Telebit WorldBlazer  v.32/v.42bis/PEP    *
*****************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Summary: Saying the Wrong Things
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 09:16:28 GMT
Expires: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 05:00:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta
Keywords: Wrong mistake
Followup-To: alt.supermodels

In article <1992Nov6.073818.27903@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>In article <10933@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> odin@cs.uq.oz.au writes:
>>I can't say that pornography is wrong. I can't say that rape is wrong either.
>
>What?!  Please tell me that this is not what you intended to say, that
>you can't say that rape is wrong.
>
>Of course it's wrong.  Forcing another person to have sex with you
>violates that person and is wrong.

Perhaps the person who can't say that rape is wrong....

Inhaled...

And forgot to exhale!

8^)

Victor
(who thinks rape should be punishable with castration and perhaps
amputation of the offending organ -- hell, if my wife or daughter
or sister or female friend was raped, I'd volunteer as surgeon!)



Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:03:27 GMT

slarsen@berlin.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen) writes:

>I read that the problem of body odor was an invention of 20th century 
>advertising.  Until this century, most folks did not give much thought 
>to pit odors.  Personal hygiene companies, in an attempt to build a 
>market for their deodorant products, used the fear of folks that they 
>might smell and be offensive to the masses in their advertising.  

This would appear to qualify for an urban-myth-in-the-making. In fact,
from earliest recorded history onward there are numerous references to
unpleasant smells, and the various attempts to cover them up. In the
absence of modern plumbing, most people, including the rich, were not
able to bathe often. Only the rich were able to resort to perfume to
partially remedy this situation, which is why fragrances were an
important and expensive item of commerce from earliest times.

A more general comment: advertising cannot exploit a "need" or "fear"
unless that "need" or "fear" is at least in some part innate. It can
magnify them, produce novel associations, suggest expensive
solutions, but it cannot create them ab inito. Some of the posters
on this subject in their righteous desire to smite Mad Avenue seem
to forget this.

Regards,
       H. Biesel
Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1614 soc.women:19124 alt.feminism:3994 soc.men:18915
From: williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 9 Nov 92 04:03:43 GMT
Reply-To: williamt@athena.Eng.sun.com (Dances with Drums)
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena

In article <1992Nov7.171526.5511@wam.umd.edu> sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Steve Russell) writes:
> People are hurt
>by having society being programmed to expect others to live up to an ideal
>image.
----
	How is the different when I am hurt by expectations to perform
or to look like X in any circumstance?  If I can't produce 'widgets'
as fast as my co-worker, the fact that I may lose my job due to
'expectations' is very harmful to me -- directly.  

	Now you may argue that one's appearance can't be changed.  I would say
first off -- tell that to the cosmetic/diet/exercise/plastic surgery/beauty
industries.  Secondly, if I am at my limit of my ability and can produce
widgets no faster -- then both cases are the same -- they are limited by
biology.  Reality is that people have expectations.  

	Second point is that if I was to be deprived of things I find beautiful
in my life, I might easily feel stifled and *hurt* as well.  Someone
depriving me of my right to own a picture or calendar of my choice is
causing me harm and emotional stress and harm.  

	Thus we have an impass.  If I exercise my rights to personal freedom,
others feel I am hurting them.  If I allow them to dictate what I can
watch, own and look at, I am hurt.  If women need to have their feelings
protected at the expense of others' freedoms, then women will never
be 'equal' to men.  If women constantly must scream "I'm hurt!  I'm
hurt!" they will be treated like emotional children.  It will become
a case of 'we know women are delicate little things that need our 
protection.  That doesn't sound like a road to equality or respect.


>  Just because someone may have the capacity to help themselves in
>the face of an injustice doesnt make the injustice less of an injustice.
---
	You also compared two different cases -- one is immediate, physical and
certain harm vs. non tangible, non-immediate, non-certain harm that only some
people will even notice.  Most people, if you strike them will be hurt.
The same cannot be said of a me owning a calendar.  Most people will not
be hurt by me having it.

>Steve R
-wat-
--
 --- "If women really earned fifty-nine cents to the dollar for the same
 work as men, what business could compete effectively by hiring men at
 any level?"    -- Dr. Warren Farrell
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: dcarter@supra.East.Sun.COM (Dave Carter-Sun-Atlanta GA-Atlanta District MCC)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
Subject: Re: Cindy.nude?
Date: 10 Nov 1992 16:26:44 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dcarter@supra.East.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: supra.east.sun.com

December "Christmas GALA issue", it also has Rachel Hunter, and a few other.

In article 26701@aston.ac.uk, blackbdj@uhura.aston.ac.uk (Dave Blackburn) writes:
> dcarter@supra.East.Sun.COM (Dave Carter-Sun-Atlanta GA-Atlanta District MCC) writes:
> : She is nude in this months PLAYBOY issue, can see much though.
> : A few other models in there, can't remember who off hand
> : ---
> :
> 
> Which issue is that?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave
>  
> -- 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dave Blackburn                                  Everything I say and wear may be
> Dept. Comp Sci & App. Maths                     taken down and used against me.
> Aston University                                blackbdj@uhura.aston.ac.uk



---

=======================================================================
ATLANTA BRAVES: 1991 & 1992 National League CHAMPIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
========================================================================
David Carter                              SUN MICROSYSTEMS
david.carter@East                         115 Perimeter Center Place NE.
404-901-6964                              Suite 850
MCC                                       Atlanta, GA  30346
========================================================================

Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Summary: Condescension and insults?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 06:56:13 GMT
Expires: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 05:00:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta
Keywords: The refuge of the feeble PC mind
Followup-To: alt.supermodels


In article <1992Nov6.150355.9849@rtf.bt.co.uk>, fletcher@rtf.bt.co.uk 
(Catherine Fletcher) writes:

> By the way, anyone who has the slightest grasp of what sexism is and doesn't
> understand why an Elle calendar is offensive and harmful and a Chippendales
> calendar isn't probably has no aptitude for complex thought - therefore I
> am resorting to condescending insult rather than reasoned explanation.

Oh, really? (eyebrows raised, gloating with anticipation...)

Anyone who has the slightest grasp of what the terms "clutching
at straws" and "spitting into the wind" mean will recognize in
*this* statement the deadly symptoms of the PC virus, and will
laugh in the face of the accuser, who is not even *civilized*
enough to advance a credible, coherent argument for her case!

Netters, please note: this is as good an example of the

************************************************************
	Politically Correct = Mentally Incoherent
************************************************************

condition as we are likely to get in this newsgroup. It is
also known as AIDS (Acute Intellectual Distortion Syndrome).

"Quick, get the PC Virus Vaccine Program! Hurry! Aieeeeeee!"

You have been warned. In this group, where *I* tread, *you* had
better be intellectually prepared to do battle. Resorting to this
kind of condescension will only draw my ire and ridicule, but it
will be a very scholarly ire and a *very* intelligent ridicule,
unlike yours, which is so feeble and laughable as to earn *my*
genuine contempt. You can pretend to be insulting, all you want.

I'll let you have your little fun. After all, it's childish. And
what's more amusing than a child trapped in her own nonsense?

Oh, and by the way, next time, drink your coffee before you post.
You'll need all the help you can get.

(Victor races for the bomb shelter and puts on an asbestos suit)

Oh, geez, this *thing* is so itchy...scratch scratch scratch...

No, I didn't mean what I said! Please don't take it seriously, I
was just kidding! How do I get out of this %$#@% asbestos suit?

;^)

Victor
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: josh2+@pitt.edu (Joseph H Alarcon)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
Subject: Re: Help!!! Repost Paulina.gif
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:29:04 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


 a test.
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
Subject: Re: request for Cindy Crawford GIF series
From: MWEAVER@VITRO.COM (Mike Weaver)
Date: 6 Nov 92 07:45:40 -0500
Organization: Vitro Corporation
Nntp-Posting-User: mbwatch

In article <1d1a6cINNcuj@gap.caltech.edu>, kanga.caltech.edu!magney (Michael Agney) writes:
> In article <1992Nov1.174058.1@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> si7115185@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg  
> writes:
>> found in akiu.gw.tohoku.ac.jp anonymous ftp site but was
>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> What happened to this site anyway?
> 

I've been able to get on recently.  There is a limit of 5 concurrent anonymous
users which makes it difficult, but you just have to keep trying to sneak in
as someone logs off.  All picture files seem to be in the /misc and /jpeg 
directories, although maybe this is because of access restrictions (I don't get
errors, just a directory listing that says '0').

-- 
          ______________________________________________________________________
         /  Michael C. Weaver         Modern music for Modern times!
        /    _____                    Internet: weaver@vitro.com
__     /   \/itro Corporation         Voice:    (301) 231-3234
  \   /    M/S 4-3409                   ________________________________________
   \ /     14000 Georgia Ave.           | "Hey Andy, are you goofin' on Elvis?"|
    V      Silver Spring, MD 20906-2972 | REM - Automatic for the People       |
                                        ----------------------------------------
          <<<<<<<Since I have no views, they're nobody elses!>>>>>>>
                       <<<<<<Viewless & Clueless>>>>>>>
Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1544 soc.women:18964 alt.feminism:3838 soc.men:18777