HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: case1@husc4.harvard.edu (John Case)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Potential New Topics
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:44:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1993Jan27.164407.19871
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <pa142548.860.727723591@utkvm1.utk.edu> pa142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>In article <727697487snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz> hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson) writes:
>>mcdaniel@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us writes:
>>
>>  > The period herald wore the arms of his lord.  I think that all heralds
>>  > in the Society should do the same.  The green tabard should be
>>  > abolished.
>>
>>M'lord, I must disagree with that latter point. A herald acting for an 
>>individual would, I agree, do well to wear the arms of that person, but 
>>I see an advantage in having a single, widely-recognised insignia for 
>>those heralds doing "official" rather than "personal" announcements.
>
>This is one reason I support quartering.  The gold-on-green is recognized 
>society wide and useful for that reason.  I would interpret a tabard with a 
>personal device and the crossed trumpets to indicate a herald of Lord Whosis.
>
>But, that's probably not a period practice, and, of course, just because it 
>makes sense is no reason to do it.
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>E-Mail to PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu, mail to ARCHER at that address will
>bounce.    "Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian."
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

How about quarterly 1 & 4 the East Kingdom, 2 & 3 Barony of Carolingia, with 
the insignia of the heralds (crossed gold trumpets on green) inescutcheon and 
also the sleeves of the heralds insignia.  I made it, I wore it, and it was
used by the Royal Court Herald that night when the Baroness of Carolingia was
invested.  Extremely gaudy and un-period, but fun.  The authenticity police
hated it, the reaction from the rest of the populace was mostly "WOW".  (Did
I forget to mention that it was all satin on satin applique (with a little
help from an embroiderer))

I also have a field tabard with the heralds insignia front and back, and the
arms of Carolingia on the sleeves.  I have the Baron and Baroness' permission 
to continue wearing that in consideration for my service to the Barony.  I've
even heralded a Royal Court in a shire 200 miles away, when it turned out I
was the only experienced herald around, and that was the only tabard around.

More 'war stories' are available at the drop of a hat.

Taran of Windy Hill, CFS
case1@husc.harvard,edu
                    (^^^ whoops, make that CDS)
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Moving Narrow Focus" events
Date: 26 Jan 93 08:01:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.728161250.AA00000

I don't know why you want to exclude Richard III.

There *is* a body of evidence that he was "framed" by the Tudors, and
that things like Shakespeare's play were heavily influenced by a careful
Tudor propaganda campaign. (This was much easier in an era when the new
King could have you arrested for treason if you tried to prove he was
doing such a thing!)

Many of the people of Yorkshire *still* don't believe Richard III was
guilty.

Read "The Daughter of Time" by the famous English mystery writer Josephine 
Tey. There are further expositions of this theme, written more recently,
but this was the first to arouse wide interest. It is history, written in
a fictional matrix. (Her star detective is laid up in the hospital and,
bored silly, becomes intrigued by the problem of Richard. The history bits
are not fictionalized, as she had become interested in the story, and
decided to look at it through the eyes of her detective, as a way of getting
a perspective on the story. Also, she realized that as a work of fiction
it was much more likely to get read than as a work of history by a non-
historian.) You could have your "Richard" learn his part from that text, 
and really throw the rest of the party for a loop!  :-)

Anyway, I recommend it as a story in any case.


 
... Moreach NicMhaolain
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: "Moving Narrow Focus" events
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:12:55 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Thomas wrote:

> I am going to explore the idea of a series of narrow focus events with a
> moving time frame.  The idea is to re-enact history "as it happens"...
> Each person would be asked to adopt a good persona.., would bone up on
> the "news", decide how their persona would see it with regards to
> themselves... During the revel we would be constrained to discuss only
> the recent events from our personas point of view. 

I encourage you to pursue this as far as you can; I think it would be a
great addition to what the SCA can offer.  For myself, I doubt I'd be
interested: I'm not attracted by historical re-enactment and role-playing.
My re-creative interests tend to focus on the small scale rather than the
large.  I delight in a well-researched and crafted piece of re-creation,
but it doesn't especially concern me that the event as a whole is (to lift
Tadhg's phrase) a mish-mash.

A few pieces of advice: You need to create a focus for your event.  Simply
inviting people to adopt a persona for the day and expecting them to create
the atmosphere is unlikely to succeed.  How often do you and your friends
spend an entire evening discussing contemporary politics?  Surely 11th
century revellers are unlikely to have spent all their time chatting about
the latest developments in the Norman Conquest.  I think the event needs a
central activity which would have been the basis of a social gathering from
the period.  A tournament might be a good choice - that's essentially the
method used by Tournament of the Lions in the several places it has been
run - or a holy day feast, or a merchant fair, etc.  Instead of asking
people to talk about things appropriate to the period, ask them to _do_
things appropriate to the period, and provide them suggestions: In your
pre-event announcements, provide music for the musicians, patterns for
simple, appropriate garb, games and dances that fit the period, etc.
Provide this material long enough in advance that people have time to use
it to prepare.  If you'd like, I can put you in touch with people who have
run events which share some features with your ideas, so that you can see
the sort of pre-event publicity they provided.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Province jurisdictions || "Persona Packs"
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:06:39 GMT

Iain Odlin writes:
  1) Given a Province (Shire, whatever you want) that covers the better part
     of a (mundane) State, and given that they aren't too keen on having
     much of anyone besides heavy-fighters (A&S be damned, for example), can
     one set up another Shire or something within the same geographical
     area, or are we SOL?  (I'm, of course, leaving out *where* this actually
     is and all of the politics that accompany the problem, you understand...
     I merely wish to know if such is possible.)

Well, creating a new group in territory held by another is a cooperative
process, where the old group cedes the territory, and so forth.  The East Kingdom
has an officer in charge of new group formation.  If you want his address,
check the beginning of the newsletter's regnum listing (Pikestaff) or send
me a note.  My opinion is, that while of course it is possible, it is as
much a source of politics as any other function in the SCA ever is.

In my opinion, you have the cart before the horse.  A group should be created
when there is a regional identity, not as a solution to a problem.  Create
your regional identity, and make the arts flourish, by running workshops and
arts and sciences events.  Once you have a group of people with common
interests, that want to be together, form a territorial group.  Again, IMHO.

However, if your local seneschal is interfering with your ability to
participate in the SCA, I would escalate the problem.  In the East, you
have a regional Kingdom Deputy Seneschal.  Also listed in the Regnum in
Pikestaff.

  2) I was reading in some older Tournaments Illustrateds about the idea that
     Chatelain(e)s should think about putting together "Persona Packs" for
     Newcomers.  Has anyone out there done so?  If so, I'm particularly in-
     terested in ones pertaining to period Scotland and the "Viking" 'states,'
     if someone could point me at where to find them.

I think work was being done on these by Countess Arastorm.  Given the bad news
last week (house fire, no contents saved), I think it will be a while longer.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: bjorn@doek.uoregon.edu (Jeff D. Robin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Household Du Navarre
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:34:33 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: cisco-ts2-line30.uoregon.edu

Greetings and Salutations,

	I am writing to see if anyone outhere has heard any word of  
Zenobia Du Navarre (Sheila Herne, mundanely),  I have lost contact with  
her (My SCAdian mom) and her household when she moved up around Bellingham  
Washington.  If anyone has word please send.

			Yrs. Truly,
			--Humphery Bumlefoot Du Navarre - De Lamarre

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-
Replies *must* be sent to bjorn@doek.uoregon.edu, or they will bounce!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-
From: zebee@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Psuedo-illegal targets (was Re: Illegal targets (was period fighting styles))
Date: 25 Jan 93 22:39:50 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
NNTP-Posting-Host: wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au

doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes:



>A more difficult problem arises with (what I always thought
>this was the motivation for excluding hands) polearms. Having
>caught the odd unintended blow to my hand on the (common)
>hockey glove, I don't think hockey gloves alone would
>be enough to prevent serious injury if hands were legal
>(and therefor probably more ofen struck) targets.

>Gauntlets solve this problem for polearms, but also raise
>the minimum cost/effort needed to be a Piker, er, Pikeman.
>Given the need for lots of poles when at war, I think
>this would cause a serious resource problem.

Hmm.  Down Under, hockey gloves are quite expensive.  More and more
people are abandoning them in favour of leather or steel, because it is
cheaper.  I haven't seen a new hockey glove on someone's hand in a long
time.  And lots of folks who do use them for polearms are re-inforcing
them with steel - a couple of easily constructed plates, a couple of
straps, and bingo!

Should cost be cited as a reason to have poor or glaringly inauthentic
armour?  I know that this has been debated ad nauseum, with no solution
in sight, but put me in the "it's more likely laziness than poverty"
camp.

Dennis also mentions that he doesn;t think it is possible to throw a
good wrap with a basket hilt that has "full coverage".  I'm curious as
to what this means.  THat using a basket hilt alone will not give the
coverage?  That it is not possible to throw a wrap with any kind of
protection that fulfills the rules?


Silfren

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills.... 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:15:34 GMT


Greetings to the assembled, from Vajk!

In the Midrealm I have also seen credits for scrolls given, 
announced at the time of the presentation, but this has not
happened at every court I have attended.

Vajk
From: dgreen@thor (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: icelandic wedding
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:34:45 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.berkeley.edu

Hello from Bjalfi!

Signy hinn Heppna and Varg Nagr write:
>
>my fiance and I are interested in having a scadian marriage to be performed
>in June at one of our local events.  We both have personas from Iceland
>around the 900s, and would like to incorporate as much of the medieval
>traditions as we could.

Most of the information I've gleaned is from the sagas themselves,
and is sketchy indeed as to the ceremony itself.  As near as I can
tell, the ceremony either involves or is closely followed by a feast,
with the bride and groom at high table.  (Seating arrangement is very
important at these feasts, and has led to more than one blood-feud.)
Also, the marriage is not considered "official" until the groom gives
the bride a present on the morning following the wedding-night.

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol Recurve Bows 
Distribution: world
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 12:16:06 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Unto all the Gentles here assembled, Greetings from Pagan!

I'm not sure what it's worth, but browsing through Mary G. Houston's _Ancient 
Greek, Roman and Byzantine Costume and Decoration_  (London:  Adam and 
Charles Black, first published 1931) I found a drawing on page 75 which is 
described thus:

    This is from the decoration in relief of an Electrum vase by a 
    Greek artist of the fourth century B.C.  It represents a Scythian 
    warrior -- a bowman....  He carries a second bow in the quiver, 
    which is slung on to his body.  The original is now in the Historical 
    Museum at Moscow, it was found in a grave in South Russia. 

The bows depicted have the strongly counter-curved ends and bowed belly 
(sorry, I've forgotten the archery terms) which I associate with recurves.  
The bowman is shown squatting with one leg forward, stringing the bow by 
flexing it between (at the strung end) the thigh of the bent leg, (in the 
middle) under the knee of his extended leg, and (at the being-strung end) a 
hand, while the other hand carries the free end of the bowstring.  Hard to 
describe, easy to do:  *if* you have a small recurve -- the bowstring might 
be an arm's length from end to end.  All the recurves I've seen in pre-modern 
sources have been about 2/3 the size of the modern ones I know.

Pagan le Chaunster
________________________________________________________________________ 
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz 
Christchurch, New Zealand
From: icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: awarding awards
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:20:32 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

There was an award given a couple years back around here - unfortunately, as
it was early in my "SCA career", I do not recall the gentle involved, 'though
I believe the award was the Purple Fret (a service award) - which the gentle
tried to refuse, claiming he had not done enough to deserve such recognition.
What followed went something like this:

King David (who, btw, was a local): Would all those fighters who have been
assisted in their training by this Lord please stand.

(about 1/3 of the populace stands, including most of the Chivalry present, the
King, and the Prince)

King David: Now, would all those who are members of groups that this Lord has
helped along the way please stand.

(now about half the populace are standing, and I believe that there was,
somehow, a list of groups spoken - a fairly lengthy list, too)

King David: Now would any other gentles who have been helped in any way by
this Lord please stand.

(well over half the populace is standing now...)

King David: Now will you accept this award?

He did... it was one of the most incredible scenes of my early SCA life...

(The point being, I suppose, that sometimes you may think you don't deserve
an award, but in reality, it's long overdue!)

Rhys
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: STEWARTL@wood-emh1.army.MIL (LOU STEWART)
Subject: Tattoos
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:58:33 GMT

A question came up this weekend regarding tattoos.  Does anyone know
if they were used at all in our period?  If so, where and by whom
were they used?  Or were they used only for certain ceremonial
purposes, or by special people, such as priests or wizards?  Will
appreciate any information the good gentles of the Rialto can
provide.  Luigsech ni hIfearnain, Calanais Nuadh, Calontir.
From: flockoff@lincoln.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: timepieces
Date: 22 Jan 93 09:27:52 +1300


Greetings from Vitale Giustiniani,

>> Dave Aronson asked:
>> : >3. Does anyone out there know of any self-adjusting timepieces that
>> : >would take this stretching and shrinking of hours into account?
>> 
>> I just purchased a device from the Franklin Mint that is very
>> simple but seems to be relatively accurate (+/- 15 minutes),
>> known as a Universal Ring Dial.
> 
I happened to be looking through my Medieval Miscelania catalogue
last night, and at the start of the jewellery section they had a
whole bunch of 'adjustable' sundials.  These ranged from one sounding
similar to the one above, to one with a rectangle with three holes in
the end into which you can insert a pin depending, I suppose, on the
time of year.  They also had a 'farmers ring' which looked like a 
normal ring with all sorts of inscriptions all over it, i think it might
have had a hole in it too.  Anyone know anything about these ones? 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 =O_O= /   Vitale Giustiniani    All Mail to FLOCKOFF@ono.lincoln.ac.nz
 * ##///   mka Peter Grooby         - Attention Peter Grooby
 |-#= /    Lincoln University    % Lincoln University does not share my %
  _| "-    New Zealand           % opinions, it keeps them to itself.   %
From: leighann@quetzal.sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: St. Gwinear
Date: 19 Jan 93 23:09:26 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Siobhan!  Cecily writes:
|> Thomas the Pardoner recently mentioned one St. Gwinear, described as the
|> "Dog Saint."  Since I had never heard of that one, I finally tracked the
|> reference down in the Oxford Dictionary of Saints (New York : Oxford
|> University Press, 1992. 3rd ed.) p. 222.  "Gwinear (Guinger, Fingar)
|> (date unknown), patron of Gwinear (Cornwall)....

May I recommend an interesting film, "Sorceress" (originally in French "Le Moin et la 
Sorciere"), in French with English subtitles.  It's out on video in some spots, and played 
in the art houses when it first ran.  It concerns, among other things, a cult of "St. Guinefort", 
who turns out to be a loyal greyhound -- much along the lines of the legendary dog Gelert.  
The faithful dog is set to guard the local nobleman's baby son; a serpent comes in, the 
cradle is overturned, there is a great commotion, the dog kills the snake.  The master comes 
in, sees the cradle upset and blood on the dog, assumes the dog has killed the baby, and 
kills the dog with his sword before he hears the baby's cry and realizes his mistake.  The dog is 
enshrined in a cairn.  In Britain, Bedd Gelert (Gelert's Grave) is supposed to have a stone on
top of it, with the imprint of a dog's paw, about which the legend goes that if you move the 
stone away from the cairn, no matter how far, the next day it will be on the cairn again.  In the 
case of the film, Guinefort becomes for the local folk a patron of children; his "sainthood" is 
conferred on him by custom rather than by canon law.  Anyway, the film asserts that its story is 
taken from a period manuscript account by a Dominican monk who visited the village, so it
may well have existed (assuming one believes the filmmaker's assertion).

Just another point of information...

Slainte!
	- Siobhan

----------------
Leigh Ann Hussey
leighann@sybase.com        {sun,lll-tis,pyramid,pacbell}!sybase!leighann
Siobhan ni hEodhusa, ORL, OGB, etc.
Argent, a pale vert, surmounted in base by a lion dormant or, on a chief
wavy vert an Irish harp or.
"The West is the best."  -- Seamas MacMhoire
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: awarding awards
Date: 22 Jan 93 07:09:32 GMT


    Hal Ravn wrote:
 WH> Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

 WH> Elevation to the Peerage is *not* a 'merit badge'.

 Indeed. As Lord Melbourne is reputed to have said about the Order of the
 Garter, "There's not a damned shred of merit about it..." (Of course, *he*
 considered that a plus...)

 WH> As Hilary of Serendip is fond of saying, "The SCA doesn't *make*
 WH> Peers, it merely recognizes them."

 Second only to the myth that the SCA attempts to re-create the Middle
 Ages. Actually mileages differ considerably in this area.

 WH> There are many aspects to a Peer besides doing A&/orS for a Laurel,
 WH> Service above and beyond the call of duty for a Pelican, or fighting
 WH> prowess for the Chivalry.

 More important is being connected with the right people -- and MOST
 important is not pissing off the wrong people.

 WH> The other qualifications are all spelled out in Corpora.

 And politely ignored except during Vigils.

 WH> What tends to get really noticed are those folks that really *are*
 WH> Peers, but few people other than the Peers have noticed this, so that
 WH> when the Peerage is announced, there is a great slapping of foreheads
 WH> as people say to themselves and each other--"Wow!  That's right!  She
 WH> really *is* a Peer!  It's so obvious--why didn't I see it before?"

 But what REALLY gets "noticed" are those folks who really *aren't* Peers,
 but get peerages anyway, so that when the Peerage is announced, there is a
 great gnashing of teeth as people say to themselves and each other ---
 "Who? Her? What for? They *can't* be serious!" I have seen it done; it is
 not a pretty sight.

 [This brief moment of cynicism is brought to you by somebody who quit
  believing in the Tooth Fairy a looooooooong time ago...]



 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: gleason@scf16.scf.loral.com (Robert Gleason)
Subject: Re: persona help
Organization: Loral Space and Range Systems, Sunnyvale, CA
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:04:49 GMT


Another pig related name is Hog Warden which in the current time period
has been shortened to Howard. Does anybody know if Howard is also a
period name (as a 1st or last)?

Parlan MacGillivray
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca