HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cgra@btma74.nohost.nodomain
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Public Domain C Compiler?
Date: 12 Jan 93 10:34:14 GMT
Reply-To: cgra@se.alcbel.be


Not only am I following myself up, I am also wandering from the thread -
but a public slur deserves a public apology.

A correspondent has rightly taken me to task for implying that the Sozobon
C compiler may be poorly supported.  Not so, he says - the authors are very
responsive.

Obviously the inclusion of bug fixes with the Gemini distribution can be
interpreted in more than one way - it could be for example that the Gemini
authors had reported their bug to Sozobon and that the latter immediately
fixed it _in the next release of the compiler_ - but it would be prudent
of the Gemini authors to assume that not everyone had this.  Most individual
users of a compiler will never bother to upgrade as long as it "works".

Once again, abject apologies for the uninformed slur.  Maybe Sozobon is a
shining example of well-supported PD.  And after all, support is what it's
all about.  PD, Shareware, commercial, or GPL-d: without support, it's no
use to man nor beast.  Unfortunately support is neither fun nor sexy, for
most people at any rate; all the more credit to people who not only take
on the intellectual challenge of developing a compiler or gui or ..., but
then stick around to support it.

Now when you pay good money for commercial software, and they demand huge
sums for upgrades, and if you don't upgrade they won't support you, and
no you _can't_ have the source - that's when you can make an informed
criticism.

- Chris -
__________________________________________________________________________
Chris Gray        | Any views expressed are those of the author and not of 
cgra@se.alcbel.be | any organisation with the author may be associated.
From: tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Availability of FSF code (was Re: Fund raising at the FSF)
Date: 4 Jan 1993 09:35:26 GMT
Organization: University of Washington School of Law, Class of '95
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes:
>>Compare two hypothetical situtations:
>
>>Situtation 1:
> [Can't use Microsoft source because it's not available.]
>>Situtation 2:
> [Can't use FSF source because hired to write a proprietary program.]
>
>>Looks the same to me.
>
>The difference is that in situation 2, your employers could conceivably
>decide to copyleft the resulting program, getting around the problem.  But
>it's much harder to get around the problem in situation 1.

Actually, they could probably throw money at Microsoft until a license
to source falls out.

>In many situations it might even make economic sense to make software
>non-proprietary so that you can incorporate FSF code.  Suppose it saves you
>a man-year of work in development, and a man-month per year of ongoing
>maintenance, and you charge $5K for the program.  Calling a man-year $120K,
>you break even if the non-proprietariness of the program results in 26
>fewer sales the first year and 2 fewer sales/year in the future, and you
>come out ahead if there were fewer sales lost.  For specialized
>applications, those numbers may not be a problem.

In short, I have to consider the cost of a source license from FSF, just as
I would if I wanted to use Microsoft source.  The FSF license just requires
different economic analysis, and its cost is harder to calculate.

But there is hope.  A few posts ago, someone mentioned a public domain
Scheme they are going to release, and I got email a while back from someone
who was finishing up a public domain C compiler.  TeX and X are quite
unrestricted.  So the list of software that is almost really free is
growing.  Now if I could just get time to work on my public domain OS...

--Tim Smith
From: rossini@biosun4.harvard.edu (Anthony Rossini)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: FSF vs Apple -- please think again
Date: 13 Jan 93 01:27:36 GMT
	<HANCHE.93Jan12142620@ptolemy.ams.sunysb.edu>
Organization: Biostat Dept, HSPH, Boston MA, USA.
In-reply-to: hanche@ams.sunysb.edu's message of 12 Jan 93 19:26:20 GMT


Exactly -- if you want the software, write it.  Or buy it from someone.  Or
form your own corporation (I've always wondered a "Public Domain Software
Foundation" would be like), write a manifesto, and get people to donate
time/money into getting software that you like.  Just because hackers don't
like your machine or the company that makes it is no reason to attack them,
especially since they aren't attacking you (unless you feel that just
because it isn't written for YOUR machine, means that you are being
attacked).  So if you stop complaining and start coding, maybe you can get
the software up and running on a Mac...

Sorry, but I thought it was obvious...
(And yes, I do use a Mac from time to time, and suffer from the dearth of my
favorite editor...)

-tony
--
Anthony Rossini       -       rossini@biostat.harvard.edu
Department of Biostatistics, Harvard School of Public Health
677 Huntington Ave, Boston MA 02115  617-432-1056
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:31:22 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith):
>Uh, nearly everyone I've heard of who wrote a spreadsheet was a programmer!

People will do for money lots of things they won't do for fun.  Those
who write (as opposed to maintain) free software generally do it for
fun, not for money.  And there's not much money in giving things away.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
From: friedman@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Noah Friedman)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Where can I find a copy of COPYLEFT?
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:48:21
Organization: Free Software Foundation, 675 Mass Ave. Cambridge, MA 02139
NNTP-Posting-Host: nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: henrik@stat.tamu.edu's message of 4 Jan 93 21:23:52 GMT

In article <1ia9t8INN8pa@tamsun.tamu.edu> henrik@stat.tamu.edu (Henrik Schmiediche) writes:
>Sorry for wasting bandwidth on this, but I tried 'archie -s copyleft'
>and tried prep.ai.mit.edu in /pub/gnu with no success. 
>
>Could someone mail me a copy of 'CopyLeft' and/or tell me where I
>can ftp it from?

prep.ai.mit.edu:/pub/gnu/COPYING.  This is a symlink to the latest version
of the GPL, whatever it happens to be (there are only 2 versions right now
anyway).  If you need a copy of version 1, it's /pub/gnu/COPYING-1.0. 

You can also always write to gnu@prep.ai.mit.edu and ask for a copy if you
lack ftp access.  If you lack even email access, you can write to 

        Free Software Foundation
        675 Massachusetts Avenue
        Cambridge, MA 02139  USA

Be sure to specify which version of the GPL or LGPL you are looking for
when you write to us.
Xref: sparky gnu.misc.discuss:4196 talk.philosophy.misc:3153 alt.usage.english:10244 alt.society.anarchy:1009
From: seth@mivax.mc.duke.edu (Judge Not)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,talk.philosophy.misc,alt.usage.english,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Summary: PLEASE STOP
Date: 4 Jan 93 14:03:00 GMT
Followup-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Organization: Duke University Medical Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

One could start a new newsgroup with a these posts.
I don't know why you're crossposting to alt.society.anarchy, but please
stop.  There has been one polite request already. 

Thanks.
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.mips,alt.cd-rom
From: brian@dweomer.org (Brian Taylor)
Subject: CD-ROM ISO 9660 format...can my system deal with it?
Summary: Can my CD-ROM drive read/understand ISO 9660 format?
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 04:01:22 GMT
Organization: What? Me organized? Never!

I'm interested in ordering the GNU CD-ROM that was just released, but
due to some articles in comp.sys.mips a while ago, I'm concerned that
my system (a MIPS MAGNUM 4000-PC50 running RISCos 5.0B) couldn't deal
with the format. Specifically, I read somewhere that the CD-ROM that
came with some (all?) MIPs systems is only for distributing their own
media and almost useless for other things.

Can anyone confirm or deny this? Also, if anyone has any information
on incorporating an ISO-9660 filesystem into my kernel, that would also
be most appreciated (thus the Xpost to alt.cd-rom)!

Thank you kindly,

Brian
-- 
Brian Taylor				UUCP:		uunet.ca!dweomer!brian
62 Derry Street				Internet:	brian@dweomer.org
Guelph, Ontario, CANADA			Voice:		(519) 824-0884
N1E 2C1
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:23:13 GMT

In article <1ivb9nINN4f2@early-bird.think.com> barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes:
>>>>    Therefore, by
>>>>    modifying or distributing the Program (or any work based on the
>>>>    Program), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so.
>>That doesn't sound like it's saying "if you violate the GPL by distributing
>>without source, you can be prevented from distribution".  It sounds more like
>>"if you distribute without source, you just gave implicit consent for someone
>>to copy your stuff".
>"Your acceptance of this License" means that you agree to distribute source
>code.

In other words, by distributing the program, you implicitly agree to distribute
source code.

>From section 4: "Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or
>distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your
>rights under this License."  It *doesn't* say that violating the agreement
>gives third parties the right to take source code that you haven't
>distributed.

Well, it doesn't say that in section 4.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 06:13:04 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck):
>One might argue that if X were GPL'ed, then more X source would be
>freely available and that this would assist new ports.  But on the
>down side, there would have been considerably less industrial
>acceptance of X if it were GPL'ed [...]

Yes.  And without the industrial acceptance, the critical mass of
users driving the new ports might very well never have existed.

I propose that a software system can have either industry acceptance
or GPL coverage, but not both.  I make one exception: software
development tools.  After all, tools are by and large obtained at
specific programmer request, and programmers love source code.

Are there any counterexamples?
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
From: joshi@cs.uiuc.edu (Anil Joshi)
Subject: Re: harmful effects of gnu software
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:30:41 GMT

pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) writes:

>Well, the RMS answer to this is that designing programs is an art form,
>a creative endeavour, and people just love doing art works, maybe for
>the potential acclamation and notoriety, or maybe as an outlet for their
>desire to build something. 85% of mathematicians, actors, painters,

RMS and the GNU people copy from the existing concepts -

1. GNU emacs from Gosling's emacs
2. All other GNU utilities from existing Unix utilities.

This implies that there is no creativity in what GNU people do. They are not
creating anything new conceptually. It is an insult to the mathematicians,
actors, painters and musicians to compare the GNU progammers to them.

You are basing your argument on the premise that programming is as
tough as creating Mona Lisa or 5th of Beethoven. Programming is not -
but designing a new language or a new operating system or a new
algorithm (of good bounds) is. After that, programming is simply grunt
work. I know, because I was a programmer for seven years and now
working towards my Ph.D. in Algorithms. I made the switch because just 
programming without really making any theoretical advance was quite boring.

So, why should I be working for GNU or LPF or FSF or whatever the darn 
organiztion is? I don't have any incentive to do drudgery (i.e. 
programming/debugging) for free.

Anil
-- 
Sathsangatve    nissangatvam   From good company to no company
Nissangatve      nirmohatvam   From no company to lack of desire
Nirmohatve    nischalatatvam   From lack of desire to concentration of mind
Nischalatatve  jeevanmuktihi   From concentration of mind to liberation of life
From: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: harmful effects of gnu software
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:45:30 GMT
	<1iqervINNcp5@shelley.u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi)
Organization: Prifysgol Cymru, Aberystwyth

On 11 Jan 93 00:26:39 GMT, tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) said:

tzs> What is my incentive to write new GPL'ed software? [ ... ]

Well, the RMS answer to this is that designing programs is an art form,
a creative endeavour, and people just love doing art works, maybe for
the potential acclamation and notoriety, or maybe as an outlet for their
desire to build something. 85% of mathematicians, actors, painters,
poets, potters, etc. are unemployed at any one time, or do other jobs to
fund their favourite activity. They don't have the alternative to work
in the service side of their profession, programmers do.

It remains to be demonstrated that the dream of becoming a source
rentier instead of a service professional, or an acclaimed artist is
needed to make people write source.

tzs> I am better off *NOT* writing the new code, and instead
tzs> concentrating on learning to support other programmers' new code.
--
Piercarlo Grandi, Dept of CS, PC/UW@Aberystwyth <pcg@aber.ac.uk>
  E l'italiano cantava, cantava. E le sue disperate invocazioni giunsero
  alle orecchie del suo divino protettore, il dio della barzelletta
Xref: sparky gnu.misc.discuss:4187 talk.philosophy.misc:3147 alt.usage.english:10237 alt.society.anarchy:1004
From: jem@sunSITE.unc.edu (Jonathan Magid)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,talk.philosophy.misc,alt.usage.english,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Date: 4 Jan 93 06:25:26 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1993Jan3.171845.18963@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>
>The use of GNU places me under a reciprocal obligation which limits
>its usufruit, regardless of whether or not I ever exercise my physical
>ability to do so.  I know that it may be hard to figure out, but feel
>free to ask somebody in your philosophy department about the meaning
>of obligation.

Ah ha! Now I understand, I think.  We are talking about philosophic obligation,
rather than legal obligation.  You legally owe the FSF or RMS nothing by the
use of their software, but you feel that the terms that they give it to you
on creates a moral, or ethical obligation.

Now, although I do not pretend to be either a professional lawyer, nor a
fully licensed philosopher, I suspect that your resentment of this deal is
because of this moral obligation.  You have part of the answer correct: 
there is a cost to using "free" software. There is no such thing as a free 
lunch. The price you pay for using GNU software is that you have become 
"infected" by the GNU manifesto; you have given up part of your independence
for using their software.  But you should have suspected that this is true. 

What you are really complaining is that RMS is not interested in handing
people a free lunch.  His "gifts" have ideological strings on them.  Not
surprising, as the strings are consistant with his intentions of reshaping
the software industry, even if they do not service your desire for 
software that is free of both cost and strings.

You can joing Mathew's "truly free" software foundation.  I'll be waiting
in line for my gift.  Bring Mother Theresa.

>May I suggest the alternative possibility, that you are
>constitutionally incapable of understanding an English sentence
>possessed of a subordinate clause?

Ahh. good stuff.  very effective argument. That will put the plebes in their
rightful places, eh?

jem.

-- 
Jonathan Magid     jem@sunSITE.unc.edu       sunSITE Administrator
Virtual pizza Delivery (tm)::faxed in 30 cycles or less or you get it
----------------------------------------FREE!!!-----------------------
Xref: sparky gnu.misc.discuss:4280 talk.philosophy.misc:3198
From: jiang@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Mingchang Jiang)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: FSF vs Apple -- please think again
Keywords: FSF Apple boycott
Date: 12 Jan 93 17:39:08 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

tim@maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) writes:

>As a humble Mac user,
>I find your boycott most upsetting.
>I'm sure no-one in Apple is losing sleep over it.
>And it doesn't affect anyone at FSF,
>as you all have your personal Sparcs under the bed.

>We -- the great unSunned masses --
>are the only people affected.
>Please try to think of it from our point of view,
>and find some other way to pursue your squabble.

>-- 
>Timothy Murphy  
>e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie
>tel: +353-1-2842366
>s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

I have to second Mr. Murphy's opinion. We understand why FSF is not happy
with Apple. But there are other ways to deal with that.

The boycott only affects users like us that spent a small fortune buying
a lowly Mac, and won't have money to buy a Sparcs station any time soon.

Thanks a lot for what you have done, though.


-- 
M\'{\i}ngch\=ang J\={\i}ang

%%%%%%%% If it ain't broke, fix it.

-- 
M\'{\i}ngch\=ang J\={\i}ang

%%%%%%%% If it ain't broke, fix it.
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 20:10:22 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to bashford@scripps.edu (Don Bashford):
>I think there is more likely to be GPL'd programming tools than GPL'd
>"common user apps" not so much because of lack of "industry acceptence"
>but because they are less likely to be produced in the first place.

Yes.  I think Don's put his finger on it.  The Crynwr packet drivers
show that programs that non-programmers want, can become popular even
when they are covered by the GPL.  It's just that spreadsheets aren't
as fun to write, and don't generate as much peer approval, as clever
programming tools.

>Its not the newness or radicalness of the idea, its the smallness
>of the profits to be had.  The GNU Manifesto is up front about the
>fact that free software is not as profitable as hoarded software.

Yes, yes.  This point is worth repeating.

The GPL won't conquer the world in my lifetime.  But it might make the
world a bit friendlier in the meantime.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 17:28:57 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

tower@ai.mit.edu (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) writes:
> In retrospect, I wish we had name FSF the:
> 	Software Freedom Foundation
> but it's way to late now.

Why?


mathew

Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
From: idall@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Ian Dall)
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:21:36 GMT

In article <1i8ar7INN7ph@shelley.u.washington.edu> tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
>So it costs FSF more to mail a disk to a business?

It is a "distribution fee" not a "re-imbursment to the FSF of their
distribution costs".

-- 
 Ian Dall           life (n). A sexually transmitted disease which afflicts
                              some people more severely than others.
   ACSnet: idall@augean.oz
 Internet: idall@augean.oz.au
Xref: sparky gnu.misc.discuss:4293 talk.philosophy.misc:3203 misc.legal:22164
From: friedman@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Noah Friedman)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,talk.philosophy.misc,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Date: 9 Jan 93 11:48:39
Organization: Free Software Foundation, 675 Mass Ave. Cambridge, MA 02139
	<1993Jan7.230129.19091@husc3.harvard.edu>
	<1imlr5INN2tu@early-bird.think.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: barmar@think.com's message of 9 Jan 1993 14:01:09 GMT

In article <1imlr5INN2tu@early-bird.think.com> barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes:
>The actual force of the GPL as a true "license" has never actually been
>tested.  I'm not a lawyer, but it looks very much like "shrink-wrap"
>licenses, which many people believe are not really enforceable.  
                                                                  
Paragraph 5 of the GPL (version 2) says:

      5. You are not required to accept this License, since you have not
    signed it.  However, nothing else grants you permission to modify or
    distribute the Program or its derivative works.  These actions are
    prohibited by law if you do not accept this License.  Therefore, by
    modifying or distributing the Program (or any work based on the
    Program), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so, and
    all its terms and conditions for copying, distributing or modifying
    the Program or works based on it.

This hasn't been tested yet in court, however. 


>The GPL is probably better viewed as a description of the copyright terms;

That seems like the only sensible definition to me, given the above.
Whether that is the official FSF interpretation or not I don't know.
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,talk.philosophy.misc,misc.legal
From: fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer)
Subject: Re: FSF vs Apple -- please think again
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University
	<1993Jan12.173830.18153@ornl.gov>
	<1993Jan12.160747.19249@husc3.harvard.edu>
	<FRIEDMAN.93Jan12180921@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 03:01:10 GMT


>>>>> "Noah" == Noah Friedman (friedman@gnu.ai.mit.edu)

Noah> Mikhail, I get the strong impression that, at this point, you are simply
Noah> looking for anything to be contrary about 

Of course. Anything else, and we'd know for sure that someone had
hacked Mikhails acount.

Look, Mikhail is an artist, and damn good. Enyjoy. Do not worry if it
does not make sense in your world.

/Lars
--
Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | It takes an uncommon mind to think of
CS Dept., Aalborg Univ., DENMARK. | these things.  -- Calvin