From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Why I Am a Feminist
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 02:26:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.205738.26374@midway.uchicago.edu> mec6@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch) writes:
>
>>>While I don't want to read all 175 myself, will you concede that *some* of
>>>these could actually have contained the word rape but been pro-male?
> 
>>Where did this come from? Rape is not a pro-male topic, ever.
>
>Rich, the point is that the useage of the term "rape" does not imply  
>that the poster is using it to make men look bad.  Why right there, 
>in the line just you wrote, you have used to the word "rape" without
>coming off as anti-male to me.  You see, grep isn't able to sort
>that statement of yours from the very different statement "all 
>men rape".

That was not -my- point. Make whatever point you wish, but -as- your
point. My point is that if the feminists claims about language and it's
usage devaluing women have -any- validity, than men are devalued equally
by making rape a common word in everyday usage, as it is here.
 
>But to shed some light on how rape is used, I decided to go through
>all 175 of these babies.  Boring, yes.. but I decieved myself into
>beleiving it's educational.  :)   (Actually, as I got going, I found
>it more and more interesting... can I get degree credit for this 
>somewhere?)

This is not relevant to my point. But who knows, you might get the credits.
 
>Several comments are in order.  First, from what I can recall
>about attributions, men were *quite* likely to be the ones using the 
>word, even initiating the topic on several occasions.  So I don't
>think it is fair to say that the useage of the term implies anti-
>male stance.

Then you inply that men cannot have an anti-male stance. I would say
it is quite easy to prove that assumption incorrect. This is still
beside the point.
 
>Second, and most important for your point, there were many 
>more posts which used to term "rape" to point to a negative 
>aspect of "feminism" than used the term to point anything 
>about men.

Actually, most started from quotes by feminists like MacKinnon, but
the threads often extend far beyond expiration. 
 
>Third, there were only 65 unique useages in the file.  (I might've made
>a mistake somewhere, but that's what I came up with.)

I did claim that there was some duplication, twice in fact.
 
>To the analysis...

[...]

Analysis omitted, the lines were devoid of context, and I doubt that
the correct context could be inferred in all the cases. Who was it that
claimed that context was required?

BTW, I can still mail you the posts if you want to see them.
 
>So, in a nutshell, it's my conclusion that "rape" is not used as an
>"anti-men" keyword, but rather as an "anti-feminist" or, quite often,
>as a neutral topic.  Additionally, men are often portrayed as victims 
>when this word is used in this.  

Do you claim that this usage does not reflect upon men in general,
and that it's repeated usage in a normal context does not imply that
this is a normal topic in a post?
 
>In short, I can't see how Rich got the impression that this news
>group overwhelmingly refers to men as rapists.
 
So you think that this usage is normal.
 
>rini
 
Rich

payner@netcom.com

 
>Sorted data follow:
>(Note this is hard to read because each individual line does not bear
>any relationship to the surrounding lines.)
>******** "Feminist friendly" uses of the word: 11 uses **********
>
>Rape is bad and should be punished: 9
>
>> violence and rape-crisis lines are closing for lack of funding.
>> rape is about power, and rape is horrifying and demeaning and
>> violence and date rape.  I march and rally and campaign for what I believe
>> Indeed they have.  Why, spousal rape is only legal in about half the
>> had been raped and she thought it was terrible.  But how did that
>> When this response is given to women as an excuse for rape, 
>> increasing female representation in government, and tougher rape laws and
>> retribution by the abuser.  Abuse and rape are difficult to establish.  In
>> horror of rape."
>
>Cases where men were presented as threatening: 2
>
>> Suppose you are 12 years old and your father has statutorily raped you.
>> Suppose your husband sexually abuses your older two children and has raped 
>
>
>******** "Feminist" misuse of "rape" yelled at: 24 uses **********
>
>Containing the words feminist, radfem or Dworkin:  11
>
>> But the New Feminist Rules go far beyond just "don't rape
>> opportunity to criticize "feminists" for expanding the definition of rape
>> And what are these "radfem" definitions? You know rape is rape, and
>> (in general). If you use almost any of the radfem (?) definitions of rape,
>> Dating is not rape. Rape is a felony. When feminists use
>> Ask the feminists who claim that all sex is rape and that it is rape
>> there is more to rape than just the claim. And the feminist extremists
>> Dworkin's -all sex is rape-, and -whenever a women does not initiate
>> all expect from me by now, which is that not all feminists define rape as
>> but he doesn't fantasize about *being* raped.  Many female feminists
>> there is more to rape than just the claim. And the feminist extremists
>
>Men as victims of unfair definition of rape:  7
>
>> define rape so as to cover almost any sexual situation. Rape cannot
>> If a women could send a man to jail (for rape) because
>> into a bunch of people who cry rape, and think poorly of men.  Tch tch
>> to tell me after I raped her, the children, and the dog. Is that it?
>> I have heard women brandy the threat of rape. It is a potent weapon. But
>> So you think that it is OK to call it rape when the woman did not initiate
>> women power over men in all sexual situations. If she yells rape, then
>
>Other:  5
>
>> worship death, that intercourse implies rape, etc.). 
>> rape like that, they degrade its meaning and desensitize people to the
>> and if she consents to these advances, she has been raped.  
>> causes rape, she might be just a little bit too far over already...
>> could there be for re-defining rape in such broad terms except to give
>
>******** Neutral usage or context unknown:  30 uses ************
>
>On romances:  11
>
>> The rape scenario has to do with avoiding responsibility for sex rather 
>> novel.  From what I remember, there seems to be two basic rape scenarios.
>> One I'll call 'raped by a rake.'  The rake isn't really a bad guy; he's  
>> This scene isn't really rape, because she does want it.  Its a rough, 
>> Not the "desires and wishes."  I have plenty of rape fantasies, but I
>> be raped.  Now it sounds like your open to a different interpretation.
>> primarily feature submission to domination, even rape; 
>> because women read books in which the hero rapes the heroine, women  
>> have neither a desire nor a wish to be raped.  For that matter, I have
>> lot of women fantasize about rape.
>
>On Elle:  4
>
>> toss off and then go rape women.  I mention to her that statistics of
>> type of thing causes rape.  She has several friends and she knows it.
>> I've been following this subject line (Elle causes rape) for a few days, 
>> raped, I can also understand that the Elle calendar offends her, but I
>
>Rape cases: 3
>
>> Well actually, I know several men who have been raped by women.
>> I recently read a blurb about a rape case being tried. 
>> probably because I was accused of causing rape.  I suppose I should call
>
>I have no idea:  10
>
>> of rape.  Obviously (to me at any rate) this attitude stems from the
>> Whether she is talking about bilingual education, date rape,
>> is found in lots of rape cases - a condemnation by the first grand jury of
>> of rape.  Obviously (to me at any rate) this attitude stems from the
>> seems to me that in attempting to exclude rape from accepted 
>> are more likely to be attacked -- robbed, raped, murdered --
>> sex it i rape-. Do you agree with these?  
>> scepticism about when rape occurs.  
>> seems to me that in attempting to exclude rape from accepted 
>> porno-imbalance thread, and in a rape-free context. It was dropped
>
>Rich's own posts:  3
>
>> My original post made no mention of rape, nor has any subsequent post.
>> Now I am incorrectly given ownership of the rape thread, and the 
>> things men do deserving consideration is to rape, sexually harrass, have
>
>