From: dart@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Dartanyan the Witchling)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: This is SO pointless... PLEASE READ THIS EVERYONE
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:50:22 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <1992Aug22.033206.26783@en.ecn.purdue.edu> muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:
> Hi all... I am back from an AWESOME summer.  Just a few observations:
>
> 1.   This group never gets anywhere with any of the discussions and
>      arguments are never decided.

	That's because it's about religion, I believe.

> 2.   The only thing anyone learns is how to defend themselves and
>      maybe (just maybe) a little theology.

	Maybe knowing how to defend oneself is a good thing.  Maybe in some cases,
(although it does not seem to be yours) it actually makes one look over Hir beliefs
and consider other possibilities about how the universe works.

> 3.   The honesty and willingness to learn and change is severly
>      lacking in many poster personalities.

	Yes, you do seem to exemplify that.

>
> Fear not!  I think that we can "get somewhere" as a group if we agree
> to approach one question at a time from the ground up and search our
> souls and ask God to lead us in seeking him.

	And I suppose you think that in a situation such as this, you actually
KNOW where the GROUND is?
	Would that not be pomposity?

> We must not be victims of a "seared conscious" in all of this! I am
> assuming that there are spiritual absolutes. If you do not believe
> this then you should not be reading or posting to this group because
> after all everything is relative so you can seek God however you
> want... Bye.

	Well, I suppose this must be how I want to seek Goddess.  So, I suppose
I should be posting to this group.  So, I suppose that in this circumstance you
have called yourself wrong, no?

> For those left we must remember that the only plausible God is an
> infinite-personal one and how we can come to Him is based on how He
> wants us to and not on how we want to.

	Why is that?  I am left, based on your dogmatic and idiotic strictures
on who is allowed in this group.  I do not agree with this, so why should I
remember it?  Or do you mean I should remember YOU think this?  If so, why?
You are not important, as you are obvoisly a self-important closed-minded ass.
You, then, I suppose, would be the bad example of the group, so i guess that,
yes, I should keep what you believe in mind.  Go on...

> Because I know we will not agree on this or even on the spiritual
> absolutes thing we will make that the first issue.  Notice I am
> not trying to moderate -- only to get somewhere. My time is
> incredibly precious and I will not squander it!

	So why are you reading this flame?  Go read your bible and get off my
net.

> For starters, post your stance on spiritual absolutes:
>
>   I, ____, believe that there are spiritual absolutes that can be
       ^^^^ You forgot your name. 
>   sought after and found by honest individuals who want God's will
			      ^^^^^^  God might be a liar, mind you.
	You are assuming we do not yet know.
>   to be done in their lives.

	Actually, there could be spiritual absolutes, but at the same time
godness could be obnoxious and playing with us as pawns.  You apparently for
got a possible viewpoint or twelve.

>
>   I, ____, believe that there are no spiritual absolutes because
>   ______________________________________________________________
>   and I read this group and post because ______________________.
>
	Ok.  

> Please participate!

	I, DODGER, Do not KNOW if there are any spiritual absolutes, but, as it
is conducive to me not to go unprepared, I will not subscribe to such a concept
as a likelihood, merely as a possibility among infinite possibilities.  I live
in a world of what CAN BE, not what IS, and in such ISes CAN BE, but are not
necessarily, just possibly.  I read this group and post occasionally and post
because I am interested in what CAN BE, and do not want to miss any more than I
have to.  I realize that possibility is infiniter than imagination, and that my
dream of knowing everything that MIGHT BE is unlikely to be fulfilled, but, as
i said, in a world of INFINITE POSSIBILITIES, EVEN IF certain ones are truths
and others are falsehoods, there exists the possibility of the possibility that
i might one day know all that CAN BE.  Knowing all that IS, is, to me, not
enough.

> The plan is to come to a conclusion on this as a group and then move
> on. I know we won't all agree, but the groups that are formed can
> then pursue their interests more appropriately and productively. For
> instance, I think that this group is meant for the first group and
> that the second group would be more at home in a New Age type
> newsgroup (I am almost sure one exists).

	Talk.religion.misc.   Hmmm.  that seems to indicate talking about
miscellaneous newsgroups.  New Age, Paganism, Harmetic Magic, Totemic
Religions, Animism, Vitalism, Grateful Deadheadism, and Atheism, in that they
are all offering viewpoints on how the universe works, are all religions.
Miscellaneous ones at that.  I do not believe this groups name is
talk.religion.christian, nor is it talk.monotheism.misc, or, as a matter of
fact, anything of the sort!  GUESS WHAT!  It's not even called Talk.dogma.misc!
So, guess what... yes, that's right, that IS a very good place to shove it.
Good boy.

> I know there are others of you who want to do something other than
> argue endlessly.  Please help in making this a reality!

	YES!  I want to share possible viewpoints and dicuss their logical
possible validity and acknowledge that all of them have SOME, EVEN YOURS!  We
can dicuss and become intrigued by the endless infinite twists on the concepts
of God, Godess, and Lack-Of-Godness and how the possibilities can interrelate
or even coexist.  We can discuss the evolution of religions from the roots, as
we know them, and speculate on the roots that we do not know.  In all this,
some people might learn something.  Let us not argue about what God/dess/es
is/are, but rather about what they might be, if anything, what we are, if
anything, and how these concepts can be used to help improve or just enrich our
lives!  WITH NO ONE SAYING "YOU'RE WRONG BECAUSE MY GOD SAID SO!"


> If there are absolutes, God wants us to know them. If He wants us to

	Many Wiccans might say, if there are absolutes, they are Mysteries of
the God and the Goddess. 

> know them, then He has to make them knowable! God will show himself
> to honest hearts!

	Many Satanists would say that they are God, and that it only takes
treating oneself in such a way to realize such a thing.

> I am not trying to kill the individuality of each persons

	Oh yes you are.

> relationship with God, only to separate us into two groups: one that
> says God does have a plan that is common (in a broad sense) to all
> his creation and one that says God has no plan for his creation other
> than the one they make for themselves...

	What about those that accept that BOTH may be true, or neither?
	Oh, By the Way, man, "Killing Individuality" and "Putting in groups"
are the same thing.  They are synonymous.

> Get those wheels turning!

	OK.  You start.
>
> Post on the first issue!

	What, why everyone besides you in wrong?  I don't think they are.
>
> Lets gain some ground for once!  PLEASE!  Why waste your time with
> less?

	I agree with the concept, but not with
you-who-exploits-it-as-a-way-to-evangelize-your-own-dogma.

>
> John M.
>
> P.S.  I do have my own views as many of you already know but I will
> be objective as I hope everyone will be.

	You are already not.

> I am sure I will learn from all of you if we can cooperate?  May I
> suggest that there _may_ be an evil force that _may_ be causing the
> chaos we have seen so far on this group?  Be careful!

	You may suggest such.  There may also be a chaotic force.  That force
may be Eris.  It might also just be Human Nature.  I find the latter more
likely.
	Or you may be completely wrong.  You may just be paranoid.  Or stupid.
I find the latter more likely.

				LAter
					DODGER