From: cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Date: 27 Jan 1993 04:06:00 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: mickey.cc.utexas.edu

In article <wilder.728040027@mik.uky.edu> wilder@nx02.mik.uky.edu (jeff wilder) writes:
>In <1993Jan25.231928.7328@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>|	Well, I think one of the primary causes and reasons for this 
>|group is that gamers are not a homogenous mass. My experiences with gamers 
>|at U of Chicago was considerably different than here at Columbia. Different 
>|people may see very different games using the same system. 
>|	The only times I have seen SR games have been good, actually. 
>|Richard Garfinkle out in Chicago was running one (hi, Ron); and my friend 
>|Marc ran one down in Baltimore - and they were both highly non-munchkin. I 
>|don't think this is representative, however - I would probably guess that 
>|most SR campaigns are very much like you describe. 
>Exactly.  The gripe I have with Christian is his ridiculous and offensive
>assertion that the SR system somehow attracts, or even *causes* munchkin-
>ism.

Haven't I been stating -all along- that that is my personal opinion, based on
personal experience, and that it may have no basis in fact?

>Most AD&D games are munchkin.
>Most SRII games are munchkin.
>I certainly won't argue these statements.  Nor do I believe that they
>can be successfully disputed.  But let's not stop there.
>Most Hero games are munchkin.
>Most GURPS games are munchkin.  I have never seen a GURPS game that was
>not rules-raped to the extreme, especially during initial character
>construction.  Not one.

Touche'. And I do agree with you, most GURPS games are munchkin. In an earlier
post of mine, I made the point that most games of any system/background are
run in a style most of us would find abhorent. But, IMHO, certain systems are
worse than others, and, also IMHO, SR is one of those systems.

>But I would never commit the fallacy of assuming that because I have
>never personally witnessed a well-run GURPS game: 1) Such games do not
>exist, 2) the system actively encourages such rules-raping, or 3) the
>system attracts or even causes such behavior. 

Actually, as a GURPSite, I can say that you're not too far offline with #2 and
#3. GURPS is very easy to abuse; it's how one pays the price for having GURPS'
flexibility. And there are -indeed- great scads of rules-rapists who play 
GURPS; I just don't allow them in my campaigns (or rather, I don't let them
abuse the rules).

>Quite frankly, Christian, such assumptions would be monumentally 
>ignorant.  If you choose to take this as ad hominem, you may; but
>it is not intended as such.  I must admit that I was greatly offended
>by your strong implication (repeated several times) that players of
>SRII and AD&D (both of which I play) can be assumed munchkin, and
>the tenor of my posts have reflected my offense.  For that, I apologize.

Christ, I never said -once- that all SRII/AD&D players are munchkin. I have
-explicitly- said that there are GOOD SRII/AD&D games out there, but that I
have, personally, never seen any. This, combined with my opinions on SR's
game system/background/method of presentation, lead me to start talking about
how, IMHO, SR encouranges immature gaming styles. If you took this personally,
then I'm sorry, but it -is- the way I see the situation, and I meant no 
offense to anyone who plays and enjoy SR......

Next time I'm going to keep my #$@! mouth shut when I don't like a game system
or background, if it's players are going to get offended by my comments.....

>Let me sum up...
>Most RPGers are munchkins.  It is completely system independent.

Not entirely; certain systems -do- encourage rules raping, others encourage
munchkin gun-fest play styles, others encourage other problems. 
Every game has it's own particular brand of munchkinism attached to it.

  Just
>because you haven't been to France doesn't mean it ain't there, however.
>"Good gamers" (in this case, defined as "non-munchkin") can be found in
>every game, I believe in equal proportion.

This, I don't agree with; but, I've gotten tired with this discussion/flamewar,
and I assume most of you are as well. Shall we just let this thing drop and go
play the way each of us like to?

At this point, I'll probably just respond to a few more posts, and give my 
'summing up' and apologize for wasting bandwidth with a flamewar that 
essentially boils down to personal opinions that no amount of discussion will
change.

-- 
    "Well, do you ever get the feeling that the Story's too damn real
                        and in the present tense?"
               Christian Wagner - cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy